decay cbnewsj cb att com \( dean kaflowitz \) subject bible quiz answers organization distribution na lines 18 article healta 153 saturn wwc edu , healta saturn wwc edu \( tammy r healy \) writes 12 \) 2 ark covenant god said make image , refering idols , created worshipped ark covenant n't high priest could enter holy kept year , day atonement familiar , knowledgeable original language , believe word idol translator would used word idol instead image original said idol think 're wrong , could suggesting way determine whether interpretation offer correct dean kaflowitz
cfaehl vesta unm edu \( chris faehl \) subject amusing atheists agnostics organization university new mexico , albuquerque lines 88 distribution world nntp posting host vesta unm edu article timmbake mcl , timmbake mcl ucsb edu \( clam bake timmons \) writes fallacy 1 atheism faith lo ! hear faq wonderful rule 3 deleted 're correct , n't say anything conspiracy correction hard atheism faith yes rule 4 n't mix apples oranges say extermination mongols worse stalin \? khan conquered people unsympathetic cause atrocious stalin killed millions people loved worshipped atheist state ! ! anyone worse \? explain stalin nothing name atheism atheist irrelevant get grip , man stalin example brought indictment atheism , merely another example people kill others name 's fit occasion , look never said , implication pretty clear i'm sorry , respond words , true meaning usenet slippery medium deleted wrt burden proof hard atheism nothing prove \? justify god exist \? know , 's faq , etc guess justifications compelling n't people flocking hard atheism \? 're , wo n't one discourage people hard atheism pointing sources reliable statements hard atheism look , i'm supporting dogmatic position 'd fool say large group people atheists , people exist wish proselytize fashion religion many hard atheists see posting , anyway \? maybe looking hard enough second , makes think i'm defending given religion \? i'm merely recognizing hard atheism , faith never meant , although understand might get idea merely using example allegory illustrate point yes , referring every reader post evidence poster stated relied upon \? evidence \? \? think may lost thread theists arrogant deleted say , absolutely true , dogma says true prepared issue blanket statements theists arrogance wont atheists bzzt ! virtue innocent little pronoun , , 've issued blanket statement least apologize qualifying original statement hard atheist place atheist would call john baptist arrogant , boasted one greater \? 's many christians today arrogant \? guilty charged meant say , theists arrogant way say , thought meaning clear enough position claims superior another supporting evidence arrogant thanks apology , btw i'm worthy ! seriously misinformed sophisticated put , theists , serious misinformation shines explained bake timmons , iii 's nothing higher , stronger , wholesome useful life good memory alyosha brothers karamazov \( dostoevsky \)
mathew mathew mantis co uk subject yet rushdie islamic law organization mantis consultants , cambridge uk x newsreader rusnews v1 02 lines 50 jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) writes article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) writes bennett , neil bcci adapted koran rules banking times august 13 , 1991 , let 's see guy writes piece title implies something case must , \? gregg , n't provided even title article support contention support position intend anyone respect , gregg questions \? even managed include reference head firmly engaged ass 's excuse \? supports nothing reason believe piece anything another anti islamic slander job also reason believe anti islamic slander job , apart prejudices respect titles , real content look article want , true tell bcci islamic bank , yes 's mere report times stating bcci followed islamic banking rules \? gregg knows islam good , knows bcci bad , therefore bcci cannot islamic anyone says otherwise obviously spreading slanderous propaganda someone wants discuss issue seriously 'd glad real discussion , providing references , etc see someone wants provide references articles agree , also respond references articles agree \? mmm , yes , would intellectually stimulating debate doubtless 's spend time soc culture islam 've got special place kill file right next bobby want join \? post , become convinced simply waste time try reason moslems hoping achieve \? mathew
dps nasa kodak com \( dan schaertel , , , \) subject christian morality reply dps nasa kodak com organization eastman kodak company lines 21 nntp posting host 129 126 121 55 article vice ico tek com , bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) writes yet still believer god concerned disposition \? beneath provide evidence would require believe \? evidence personality , given god , would find compelling \? fact god could cause believe anything wants think minute would rather someone love made love , wanted love responsibility love god take step toward promises , look doubt dispute givin sincere effort simple logic arguments folly read bible see jesus made fools tried trick logic ability reason spec creation yet think ultimate rely simply reason never know learn must accept n't know
halat panther bears \( jim halat \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality reply halat panther bears \( jim halat \) lines 129 article 930419 rusnews w165w mantis co uk , mathew mantis co uk \( mathew \) writes mccullou snake2 cs wisc edu \( mark mccullough \) writes article 30136 ursa bear com halat pooh bears \( jim halat \) writes atoms objective n't even real scientists call atom nothing mathematical model describes certain physical , observable properties surroundings subjective deserves framing really atoms n't even real tell , atoms seen electron microscopes atoms , \? imaginations \? evidence atoms real overwhelming , wo n't bother evidence moment ha ha ha ! sorry , studied cell biology , say see electron microscope , therefore real laughable statement stuff deleted thank thought twilight zone moment still amazes many people science backgrounds still confuse models even would call real world jim halat article ursa bear com , halat panther bears \( jim halat \) writes article 1993apr17 princeton edu , phoenix princeton edu \( david aaron \) writes liberal arts major , \? guess never saw photo smallest logo world ibm made noble gas atoms \( krypton \? xenon \? forget specifics \) atoms , trees , electrons independently observable verifiable morals n't see difference \? record \( kind information would likely affect thinking \) focus penn photo smallest logo world atom make observed something measure matches mathematical model call atom predicted much way need particle model wave model light , atomic model mathematical representation physical phenomena model probably continue change time makes subjective \( model \) however , model gives us objective way talk physical world put another way , quantum mechanical model atom allows discussion atom give repeatable unambiguous results , objective however , bohr einstein mid century , interpretation , observable measurements quite subjective bohr said observable randomness atomic motion inherent nature universe einstein said particle motion deterministic , measurement shortcomings introduced randomness talking exact results , though jim halat
nanci ann miller nm0w andrew cmu edu subject amusing atheists agnostics organization sponsored account , school computer science , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 33 nntp posting host po4 andrew cmu edu reply timmbake mcl timmbake mcl ucsb edu \( bake timmons \) writes lies hypocrisy , dude atheism takes much faith theism admit ! people might think takes faith atheist faith \? take kind faith say great invisible pink unicorn exist \? take kind faith say santa claus exist \? \( may people suppose \) certainly n't big leap faith say things \( god \) exist \( suppose depends notion definition faith \) besides believing god means one n't deal extra baggage comes ! leaves person feeling wonderfully free , especially beaten head years ! agree religion belief often important psychological healer many people reason think 's important however , trying force psychological fantasy \( n't mean bad way , 's really \) someone else n't interested extremely rude still believed santa claus said belief santa wonderful things life \( making better person , allowing live without guilt , etc \) tried get believe santa much \? 'd call men white coats soon could get phone bake timmons , iii nanci \( babbling \) \) know \( sure \) author quote , please send email \( nm0w andrew cmu edu \) spring nature 's way saying , 'let 's party ! '
ch981 cleveland freenet edu \( tony alicea \) subject southern baptist convention freemasonry organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 51 reply ch981 cleveland freenet edu \( tony alicea \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu southern baptist convention convening june consider charges freemasonry incompatible christianity , thought following quotes mr james holly , anti masonic flag carrier , would amuse following passages exact quotes southern baptist convention freemasonry james l holly , , president mission ministry men , inc , 550 n 10th st , beaumont , tx inside cover book states mission ministry men , inc hereby grants permission reproduction part booklet two provisions one , material changed two , source identified followed provisions freemasonry one allies devil page iv issue moderate conservative , issue god devil page vi worthwhile remember public school education america page 29 jesus christ never commanded toleration motive disciples , toleration antithesis christian message page 30 central dynamic freemason drive world unity fraternity , liberty equality toleration seen writings 'great' writers freemasonry page 31 jesus christ established sectarian possible faiths page 37 narrowness , equal lord jesus christ page 40 seems right interest toleration cousins liberty , equality fraternity actually one lies lies ' page 40 southern baptist convention many churches founded lodge corner stones dedicated lodge churches hold public ceremonies repentance praying blood name lord jesus christ church renouncing oaths taken dedication church building page 53 54 tony
bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) subject amusing atheists agnostics organization tektronix inc , beaverton , lines 18 article netcom com madhaus netcom com \( maddi hausmann \) writes clam bake timmons bill shit connor sorry , gotta disagree one maddi \( resemblence bill nickname \) prefer half bake 'd timmons bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com said queens could stay , blew bronx away , sank manhattan sea
bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) subject requests organization tektronix inc , beaverton , lines 17 article healta 157 saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu \( tammy r healy \) writes bob , 're wanting excuse convert christianity , gonna look elsewhere damn hopes bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com said queens could stay , blew bronx away , sank manhattan sea
bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) subject thoughts christians organization tektronix inc , beaverton , lines 19 article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) writes know ca n't get physical problems passive christianity , unlike smoking 's hard avoid christianity today , anyway ignore 'em right keith , err , kent mean , n't see smiley \? bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com said queens could stay , blew bronx away , sank manhattan sea
bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) subject 's shit \? \( amusing atheists \) organization tektronix inc , beaverton , lines 37 article shelley u washington edu jimh carson u washington edu \( james hogan \) writes various bill conners post , felt passive aggressive knock chip shoulder type approach meant attempts reasoned argument would wasted still think however , primitive responses \( , bronx cheers , sarcasm \) somewhat satisfying \( \) apologies anyone still thinks bobby performance artist ! \) , feed pointless , circular round ad hominem name calling witness precisely position newbie , tried point point approach debate types wasted time lifespan ignoring option , since n't go away , would leave one large stretches complete anonymity group 's left \? healthy flaming i'm sure occassion 've appeared little bobby types waste breath arguing someone whose rational though process involves system \? stand record recognizing people long rest group let 's see timmons character store us bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com said queens could stay , blew bronx away , sank manhattan sea
bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) subject christian morality organization tektronix inc , beaverton , lines 52 article 4949 eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com writes article vice ico tek com , bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) writes yet still believer god concerned disposition \? beneath provide evidence would require believe \? evidence personality , given god , would find compelling \? fact god could cause believe anything wants think minute would rather someone love made love , wanted love first , n't expect love n't even know exist secondly , would n't expect love simply creator would expect earn love responsibility love god take step toward promises , look \? love something n't believe exists \? come back 've learned love third doubt dispute givin sincere effort simple logic arguments folly read bible see jesus made fools tried trick logic ability reason spec creation yet think ultimate rely simply reason never know learn must accept n't know point stepped line become complete asshole even though 's first offense , wo n't let slip becuase 've heard many times love jesus deep heart 're say , i'm much qualified assess motivations fortunately , things get accept evidence rather faith one christians like quit fucking arrogant , never peace 've made sure bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com said queens could stay , blew bronx away , sank manhattan sea
frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) subject theism fanatism \( islamic genocide \) organization siemens nixdorf ag lines 84 nntp posting host d012s658 ap mchp sni de article i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) writes article horus ap mchp sni de frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes theism strongly correlated irrational belief absolutes irrational belief absolutes strongly correlated fanatism correlation causation belief absolutes exist thing belief absolutes , belief shortest route thing knowledge irish correlation necessarily causation however , might noticed , allows conclude correlation religion fanatism based common features religious belief \( sorry long quotes , dont see cut \) huh \? barking mad \? hardly \( 1 \) theism strongly correlated fanaticism say plus could find stronger correlations actually interested truth instead seeming , bigot theism correlated fanaticism neither said fanatism caused theism theism leads fanatism point , theism increases chance becoming fanatic one could course argue would fanatics tend towards theism \( example \) , times history theism dominant ideology invalidate conclusion basic mechanism behind imo , influence stalin , matter , ayn rand , invalidates assumption theism factor considered gullibility , blind obedience authority , lack scepticism , , reliable indicators really dangerous people sources fanaticism often none things cynical manipulators gullible , know precisely , brands theism , precisely theists , tend fanaticism , grant tar theists brush bigotry , reasoned argument reads like warm censorship restriction religious freedom ever read animal farm \? \( 2 \) define irrational belief e g , rational believe reason always useful \? irrational belief belief based upon reason latter discussed long time charley wingate one point beliefs violate reason often , another process lend rational analysis contain reliable information well , glaring paradox argument reason useful based reason would circular , argument based reason would irrational \? first part second statement contains information , n't say beliefs beliefs strong theism strong atheism , statement general true second part sentence patently false counterexample axiomatic datum lend rational analysis , assumed contain reliable information regardless process used obtain compared evidence theists claims strength demands makes whole thing irrational antirational ca n't agree specific theism \? say theism necessarily antirational requires proof suspect affinity fanatism easily seen true believe nothing work hypothesis however , beliefs say work hypothesis n't understand argument \? frank o'dwyer 'i'm hatching that' odwyer sse ie hens , evelyn conlon
deguzman math uiuc edu \( deguzman \) subject go hell ! ! ! distribution na reply deguzman uiuc edu organization calculus mathematica uiuc lines 26 decay cbnewsj cb att com \( dean kaflowitz \) writes article 27k portal hq videocart com , dfuller portal hq videocart com \( dave fuller \) writes jsn104 psuvm psu edu \( \) writes blashephemers ! ! ! go hell believing god ! ! ! ! prepared eternal damnation ! ! ! mean prepared \? \? surrounded thumpers like proven hellish enough i'm even dead yet ! ! well 's prepared got one big beach , gel pack ice things , big coleman cooler 've loaded miller draft \( like miller draft , sue \) , new pair new balance sneakers , sony watchman , couple cheese popcorn stuff deleted actually , get ton weapons ammunition , 70 80 followers , hole kind compound , wait \) alan deguzman calvin i'm smart 's almost scary guess calculus mathematica i'm child disclaimer university ca n't afford opinions hobbes children
decay cbnewsj cb att com \( dean kaflowitz \) subject go hell ! ! ! organization distribution na lines 20 article 27k portal hq videocart com , dfuller portal hq videocart com \( dave fuller \) writes jsn104 psuvm psu edu \( \) writes blashephemers ! ! ! go hell believing god ! ! ! ! prepared eternal damnation ! ! ! mean prepared \? \? surrounded thumpers like proven hellish enough i'm even dead yet ! ! well 's prepared got one big beach , gel pack ice things , big coleman cooler 've loaded miller draft \( like miller draft , sue \) , new pair new balance sneakers , sony watchman , couple cheese popcorn n't decided wear yet one wear eternal damnation \? dean kaflowitz
jimh carson u washington edu \( james hogan \) subject 's shit \? \( amusing atheists \) organization university washington , seattle lines 38 nntp posting host carson u washington edu article timmbake mcl timmbake mcl ucsb edu \( bake timmons \) writes james hogan writes fine sentiments first post jim assumed attack ad hominem , sarcastic innuendo , e , shit conveniently forgets , course , boredom ad hominem , sarcastic innuendo \? absolutely forgotten \? hardly bored \? really try confuse life life ca n't overcome urge tease taunt folks bound faq less onto chip shoulder listen , one might think belonged church ! appreciate patience others questioned posting line line content basis , though 's hard know impact might , compared , say , fact truly interested ending thread would n't posted last shit think , whatever initial , past certain point circular abuse bake timmons , iii 's nothing higher , stronger , wholesome useful life good memory alyosha brothers karamazov \( dostoevsky \) sincere questions \? looking \? jim
cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) subject societally acceptable behavior organization university illinois urbana lines 59 citation ksu ksu edu citation ksu ksu edu \( jonathan w newton \) writes article c5qgm3 dl8 news cso uiuc edu , cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) writes merely question basis morality moral ethical behavior societally acceptable behavior disagree society thinks irrelevant individual decides important n't seem right want kill , decide \? 1 \) society think fairly obvious really whatever particular society mandates ok ok , always society disagree mandates , societal mandates make standard morality \? 2 \) define acceptable \? generally feel right , idiotic policy think basis \? unfortunately admit tied least loosely feeling , think intuitively know things wrong awfully hard defend , though 3 \) keep whatever legal moral position \? thinking might agree certain actions legal make moral mac michael cobb wo n't raise taxes middle university illinois class pay programs champaign urbana bill clinton 3rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu new taxes spending cuts 'll still 310 billion dollar deficits michael cobb wo n't raise taxes middle university illinois class pay programs champaign urbana bill clinton 3rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu nobody explain everything anybody g k chesterton
cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) subject societally acceptable behavior organization university illinois urbana lines 20 guess i'm delving religious language area exactly morality morals \? never thought eating meat moral immoral , think could differentiate something personal choice preference something see immoral \? fall basis morals \? also , consensus positions fall might makes right , brought , whatever right societally mandated whoever control time makes right mc mac michael cobb wo n't raise taxes middle university illinois class pay programs champaign urbana bill clinton 3rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu nobody explain everything anybody g k chesterton
arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \( ken arromdee \) subject christian morality organization johns hopkins university cs dept lines 24 article 4949 eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com writes yet still believer god concerned disposition \? beneath provide evidence would require believe \? evidence personality , given god , would find compelling \? fact god could cause believe anything wants think minute would rather someone love made love , wanted love oh , difference believing god exists , loving \( instance , satan certainly believes god exists , love \) unbelievers request situations like god provide evidence compelling enough believe exists , compel love first day christmas truelove served leftover turkey ! second day christmas truelove served turkey casserole made leftover turkey days 3 4 deleted flaming turkey wings ! pizza hut commercial \( tlu gic bait \) ken arromdee \( arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \)
arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \( ken arromdee \) subject gulf war peace niks organization johns hopkins university cs dept lines 17 article 1993apr20 882 batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes hawaii \? liberated spain well , going well hit one hawaii independent country coup americans led request annex us refused , eventually annex several years later spanish american war first day christmas truelove served leftover turkey ! second day christmas truelove served turkey casserole made leftover turkey days 3 4 deleted flaming turkey wings ! pizza hut commercial \( tlu gic bait \) ken arromdee \( arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \)
mayne pipe cs fsu edu \( william mayne \) subject christian morality organization florida state university computer science department reply mayne cs fsu edu lines 21 article 4949 eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com writes fact god could cause believe anything wants think minute would rather someone love made love , wanted love old bullshit given delusions wishful thinking option either loving obeying reason believe responsibility love god take step toward promises , look doubt dispute givin sincere effort bullshit assure misguided youth made sincere effort painful rational person raised christian home many others could tell story choose believe anyone 's experience contradicts smug theories bill mayne
cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) subject societal basis morality organization university illinois urbana lines 66 1993apr20 cnsvax uwec edu nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \( david nye \) writes reply cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) morals come societally accepted , follow \? right expect others follow notion societally mandated morality \? pardon extremism , could n't murder brother say exercising rights saw , felt good , n't want anyone forcing morality , n't follow morality \? believe morality subjective person entitled moral attitudes mine priori correct someone elses mean however must judge another basis rather moral standards entitled believe moral sense tells , rest society entitled pass laws spelling punishments behavior offensive majority \? \? might makes right \? force morality \? ca n't want \? decide \? disagree \? criminals see behavior moral may realize immoral care thus following moral system immoral good point , immoral opinion n't let choose , make decision actions wrong someone lay claim alternative moral system , must sincere belief must internally consistent sociopaths lack innate moral sense admit lean toward idea innate moral sense , little basis yet far concept extended \? thus may incapable behaving morally someone like hitler may believed actions moral , may judge immoral standards mean could say would wrong us thing , behaving morally eyes chose basis condemn societies besides , 's buzz words , idea actions wrong humans societies \? holding morality subjective mean must excuse murderer \? objective suddenly \? david nye \( nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \) midelfort clinic , eau claire wi patently absurd whoever wishes become philosopher must learn frightened absurdities bertrand russell mac michael cobb wo n't raise taxes middle university illinois class pay programs champaign urbana bill clinton 3rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu nobody explain everything anybody g k chesterton
kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) subject nicknames organization case western reserve university lines 16 nntp posting host b64635 student cwru edu article i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) writes ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu \( scott sauyet \) writes okay , scott anybody hear \? sauyet ssauyet wesleyan edu could speak \? ca n't hear sole intention learning fly
decay cbnewsj cb att com \( dean kaflowitz \) subject free moral agency organization distribution na lines 52 article lm5 darkside osrhe uoknor edu , bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) writes dean kaflowitz \( decay cbnewsj cb att com \) wrote , interested original notion discussing moral free agency , god punish person believing person following nature possible person deny reason tells , god \? dean , think 're letting atheist mythology great start realize immediately interested discussion going thump babble would much prefer answer ms healy , seems reasonable reasoned approach things say , n't creationist guy made lot silly statements evolution time ago \? confuse issue divine justice according fundamental doctrines christianity , first man sinned , time entire human race punishment would necessarily affect entire race sole humans coming would , race \( species \) , share judgement nothing deserves perspective god , humanity one category created things category condemned duh , gee , must talking christian mythology hoping discuss something reasonable , logical person , seem side repetition boring mythology 've seen thousand times deleting rest remarks , unless spot something approaches answer , merely repetition doctrine contain thought congratulate , though , bill would n't know logical argument bit balls persistent lack function face repeated attempts assist learning \( seen forum others past \) speaks talent goes well beyond , meager abilities n't seem capacity ignoring outside influences dean kaflowitz
perry dsinc com \( jim perry \) subject morality constant \( biblical rape \) organization decision support inc lines 99 nntp posting host bozo dsinc com last response thread fell bit bucket vanished \( though appearing locally \) 'll repost , since always feel someone appears ignore one postings thread , n't want rob think i'm since dated , however , n't feel compelled respond article watson ibm com strom watson ibm com \( rob strom \) writes making two separate points , attack face value bible interpretation \( 1 \) judge bible 's value today , judge based way used today , commentators actually say , rabbis teach , etc suspect meant context jewish tradition referring one problem highly interpreted tradition like happens schism occurs , time certain large influential branches heretical group come favor exactly face value interpretation \( 2 \) judge bible 's value originally written , \( \) read context time \( today 's assumptions \) , \( b \) compare practices surrounding people context time important , value judgments must ultimately according current understanding , least base standard \( relative stability success society , e g \) obviously true comparing practices surrounding people , instance according bible , surrounding people immoral savages repulsive inhuman habits need look rather peoples really like instance , way better worship single god whose presence strongest tent temple multiple gods whose presence represented statue \? bible 's terms idolatry inherently evil , see evidence followers various religions area time particularly bad people , relative people bible scissors cloth past , ancestors cut cloth scissors , least knew inhumane neighbors cut bare teeth , relatively enlightened step forward earlier barbarism , made transition modern civilized paper cutting much easier sounds good , presupposes teeth neighbors , see support one argue post facto assertion inhumane neighbors used make moral points , n't mean actual neighbors really inhuman point , people across river mountain , even different people dwelling among us , common complex benign moral traditions evolved based particular mythic interpretations history interesting , still n't think fair take long tradition interpretation use attack condemnation original history note i'm speaking historical interpretation , instance claiming 's eye eye primitive brutal retribution , version enlightened benign fine \( tradition since interpreted phrase way \) 3000 years ago , probably meant thing sure , i'm arguing parochial perspective belong tiny tribe struggled overwhelming odds survival distinct tribe , book book tribe book commands us dedicate study , improve world , set example light nations 've revered book , think 've successful scientists , artists musicians , leaders important humanitarian causes 's hard separate success people virtue book 'd argue 'd done significantly better different book book , another tribe different book book done significantly better n't belittle accomplishments , particularly intellectual ones , jewish people given trying think analogy , since n't know similar \( closest think , n't know enough make meaningful comparison \) think tradition reflective study , flexible rather dogmatic interpretation , good thing think attitude case could made could done well starting 1943 captain america comic \( whatever babylonian equivalent would \) jim perry perry dsinc com decision support , inc , matthews nc opinions nominal fee , jim perry perry dsinc com decision support , inc , matthews nc opinions nominal fee ,
perry dsinc com \( jim perry \) subject satanic verses organization decision support inc lines 79 nntp posting host bozo dsinc com , posting delayed week falling software cracks article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) writes promised , rafiq 's discussion nature called satanic verses rushdie 's title taken \( rafiq , muhammad quran , penguin '91 \) follows introduction controversial incident , explanation show could n't actually happened episode n't matter follows n't know whether i'm quoting gregg anyway , back current affairs , rushdie , admission , drawn version given watt among others incident something rushdie watt anyone else dug nowhere , well known story , myth , known \( according umar khan \) every muslim school boy girl , presumably rushdie , gibreel allowed imagination run wild yes , writing fiction rushdie writing crisis faith , chose myth present , placing actor gibreel role angel whose name took rushdie writing history theology book , nowhere claims implies actually happened 's somewhat like stories around relationship jesus reformed prostitute mary magdalene \( another myth \) referring , grail legend , wandering jew , dozens others stand read work , consider salman rushdie 's children 's book sea stories idea way specific works existing story lines ridicule muhammad 's integrity muhammad 's 's integrity really part story , 's reason think rushdie 's intent gibreel , archangel , produces verses \( divine satanic \) , though n't know implied \( straight reading \) muhammad influences voice 'd never know words i'm classy speaker never never n't voice 's voice 's eyes open wide , 's seeing kind vision , staring , oh , 's right , gibreel remembers , 's seeing lips moving , moved , \? n't know , ca n't say nevertheless , , coming mouth , throat , past teeth words god 's fun , god n't picture god knows whose 've 's ambiguous somehow manipulating gibreel \? satan \? something else \? answer given sure , question raised novel explores faith role revelation religion , among things addressing loss faith implicitly raises questions truth revelation , novel proposes answers , least directly existence newsgroup named alt atheism raises questions , forcefully , propose answers , real relevance rushdie 's mild fictional exploration filth lies , asked got , next fatwa list \? \( 's rhetorical question , course \) jim perry perry dsinc com decision support , inc , matthews nc opinions nominal fee , jim perry perry dsinc com decision support , inc , matthews nc opinions nominal fee ,
perry dsinc com \( jim perry \) subject says apostles tortured \? organization decision support inc lines 30 distribution world nntp posting host bozo dsinc com another article fell cracks article srvr1 engin umich edu ingles engin umich edu \( ray ingles \) writes evidence resurrection , often claimed disciples tortured death beliefs still renounce claim jesus come back dead , acts , found reference happening stephen , others apparently widely held belief come \? evidence outside bible \? evidence bible \? sure n't found briefly , widespread folklore , good documentary evidence , even solid rumor , concerning deaths apostles , usual context arguments , observe , martyrs lie e willingness people die rather evidence truth belief adds quite stronger twist proposed martyrs must offered chance life since n't even know died , certainly n't information \( way , even case stephen clear could saved \) willingness true believers die belief , jesus jim jones , well documented , martyrdom says little see 20 40 biblical account martyrdom 450 priests jim perry perry dsinc com decision support , inc , matthews nc opinions nominal fee ,
perry dsinc com \( jim perry \) subject read rushdie 's satanic verses \? organization decision support inc lines 38 nntp posting host bozo dsinc com another one rescued bit bucket years book discussed elsewhere net generally , discussion comes contention one hand tsv contains blood libel islam merit , death , least banning probably sort punishment rushdie , particularly non muslim western country , every right write publish whatever chose , regardless whether muslims find offensive , without fear persecution death naturally inclined latter position , find interesting position , think fine book , incidentally concerned islam , moreover i'm damned find anything offensive years , made point , various primarily muslim posters responded , saying yes indeed read book called things filth lies , would rank rushdie 's book hitler 's mein worse , unfortunately , comments usually generalities , attempts follow requesting explanations specifically offensive met either stony silence , generalizations , inaccurate context references book lead believe actually read corrections attempts discuss text context ignored anyway , since seem one following particular line discussion , wonder many rest readership read book \? thoughts \? jim perry perry dsinc com decision support , inc , matthews nc opinions nominal fee , jim perry perry dsinc com decision support , inc , matthews nc opinions nominal fee ,
perry dsinc com \( jim perry \) subject morality constant \( biblical rape \) organization decision support inc lines 87 nntp posting host bozo dsinc com response originally fell bit bucket i'm reposting bill n't think i'm ignoring article darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) writes jim perry \( perry dsinc com \) wrote stuff biblical morality , though bill 's quote little goes say bill , i'm sorry busy lately getting around apparently fundamental atheism think many well addressed famous faq misplaced atheism need n't imply materialism , lack absolute moral system however , tend materialism n't believe absolute morality , 'll answer questions atheist judge value \? atheist judges value way theist according personal understanding morality n't believe absolute one n't mean n't one i'm explicit , line postings followed , express judgment moral issue basing judgment code rather claiming absolute sense good bad moral code particular different others around , christians , muslims , atheists say object genocide , i'm expressing anything particularly line society holds ask think morality exists form , answer would taste moral code prerequisite functioning society , humanity probably evolved morality know part evolution ability exist large societies , thereby achieving considerable survival advantages 'd probably say god made rules neither us convince , share common understanding many moral issues think get religion , think get \( get \) early childhood teaching n't like god told people says nothing god god 's commands , says electrical event nervous system created emotional state mind coupled pre existing thought set form reaction think 've reading wrong sort comic books , basically agree 're saying believe mental reactions god commanded genocide canaanites , course think 's true well reaction little whether god exists even whether think , god existed commanded genocide , could consider good , supposedly attribute god , excluded discussion values , right , wrong , , evil , etc cannot participate opinion bible weight whatsoever hmm yes , think heavy faq reading would good much place discussing values etc person fact , actually accomplish something discussion , framing questions terms reason instance , clear environment neighboring tribes periodically attempt wipe based imagined divine commands , quality life generally poor , system superior , quality life agreed goal absolutist , hand , thump portions bible happen agree , say good , even act question unequivocally bad standards everyone discussion attempt define someone group people excluded discussion , cannot participate , opinions given weight whatsoever lowest form reasoning \( ad hominem poisoning well \) , presumably resort someone ca n't rationally defend ideas right , wrong , bible jim perry perry dsinc com decision support , inc , matthews nc opinions nominal fee , jim perry perry dsinc com decision support , inc , matthews nc opinions nominal fee ,
decay cbnewsj cb att com \( dean kaflowitz \) subject origins bible organization distribution na keywords bible lines 21 article 1993apr19 cs nott ac uk , eczcaw mips nott ac uk \( wainwright \) writes hi , argument origins bible lately theist acquaintance stated thousands bibles discovered certain point time syllable perfect therefore meant must one copy certain time time quoted approximately 50 years death jesus tell friend publisher 's warehouse one time saw thousands copies joy cooking every one syllable perfect since sold become follower joy cooking incident mentioned convinced , , joy cooking inspired god one true path glory dean kaflowitz may sauce
jcopelan nyx cs du edu \( one \) subject amusing atheists agnostics organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept lines 24 article shelley u washington edu jimh carson u washington edu \( james hogan \) writes think 've missed point take alt atheism instance 's exponent based anagram fully extended , translates dig tunnels deep ! store grain everywhere ! prepare coming struggle ! 'll doubt recognize quote chairman mao thus , think 'll admit atheists lot sleeve might suspected agnostics sent mao atheist new order put little red book \? green \? jim god dead actor plays part sting , words fear find way place heart history without voice reason every faith curse teach us without freedom past things get worse nothing
kempmp phoenix oulu fi \( petri pihko \) subject christian morality organization university oulu , finland x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 79 dan schaertel , , , \( dps nasa kodak com \) wrote since alt atheism , hope n't mind strongly disagree fact god could cause believe anything wants think minute would rather someone love made love , wanted love responsibility love god take step toward promises , look indeed , knock shall opened dan , n't work \? firmly believed god 15 years , eventually realised deluding , fearful face truth ultimately , reason kept believing fear hell mental states attributed divine forces devil 's attempts destroy faith nothing imagination , easy achieve mental states faith learned fear disguise doubt dispute givin sincere effort god demanding much dan , believed 15 years \? sincere effort equivalent active suspension disbelief case 'd rather quit god help keep faith , ca n't go besides , concerned god 's morality mental health really want us believe without help \( revelations , guidance , anything feel \) \? created us , n't make task easier \? supposed love someone refuses communicate us \? point eternal torture ca n't believe \? love god much loves wants seduce , 'll know simple logic arguments folly read bible see jesus made fools tried trick logic ability reason spec creation yet think ultimate rely simply reason never know argument type 'll know try yet many atheists sincerely tried , believed many years , eventually honest enough admit lived virtual reality else reason use \? n't spiritual means christians often refer conscience disagrees bible n't even believe soul fully dependent body indeed , body goes flames , identity god entertain copies wants learn must accept n't know mean \? learn must accept n't know something , right learn must accept something n't know , \? way prefer learn unwise merely swallow everything read suppose write book telling great invisible pink unicorn \( tm \) helped daily problems , would accept , since ca n't know whether true \? note gipu also omnipotent , omnipresent , loves everyone besides , \( \) guiding every writer planet , , people write legendary stories 2000 years ago god one aspect presence petri ' '' petri pihko kem pmp mathematics truth ! ' ' ' ' ' pihatie 15 c finou oulu fi physics rule ' ' ' sf 90650 oulu kempmp game ' finland phoenix oulu fi chemistry game
jbrown batman bmd trw com subject gulf war selling arms lines 40 article 930420 rusnews w165w mantis co uk , mathew mathew mantis co uk writes mccullou snake2 cs wisc edu \( mark mccullough \) writes parallel thread much definitions bombs , etc deleted tell , many innocents killed concentration camps \? mm hmm , many scheduled enter concentration camps shut captured allies \? mm hmm , civilians died war matter , civilians die proper course \? n't sell bastard arms information first place ruthlessly hunt especially 're positions power mathew , agree , seems , crux whole position , n't \? us n't supported hussein sold arms fight iran \? agree agree ruthlessly hunting sell arms hussein , 's done deal invades kuwait sit back say , well , sold arms , suppose wants use bad kuwait , unfortunately , sitting back letting things way correct former mistake destroying hussein 's military potential right move agree statement , reagan bush made grave error judgment sell arms hussein 's really gulf war abhor much , u 's west 's selling arms hussein ultimately made war inevitable , right \? , agree deleted mathew regards , jim b
oser fermi wustl edu \( scott oser \) subject studies book mormon organization washington university astrophysics lines 5 distribution world nntp posting host fermi wustl edu think temptation , paul , good section origins mormonism might want look scott
gmills chemical watstar uwaterloo ca \( phil trodwell \) subject amusing atheists agnostics lines 25 organization university waterloo article timmbake mcl timmbake mcl ucsb edu \( bake timmons \) writes timmbake mcl ucsb edu \( bake timmons \) subject amusing atheists agnostics date 18 apr 93 23 17 25 gmt big deletions many atheists show poor understanding human nature , many people would otherwise sympathize cause shake heads disbelief childish ranting another string idiotic generalizations , i'm surprised got far post guess like seeing names crt like \) phil trodwell space 'd happy ram goddam 440 volt cattle rent prod tub right , \( cheap \) radio ! hunter thompson
perry dsinc com \( jim perry \) subject \? organization decision support inc lines 26 nntp posting host bozo dsinc com perhaps 's prophetic week \? appears claim still active old timer , news software gets bit rot ships outgoing articles deep hole somewhere anyway , 's repost article senator bedfellow mit edu athena mit edu \( tom bruno \) writes brings point posting many people around alt atheism since 1990 \? 've done stay top newsgroup , fall behind , really fall behind days n't fall far behind last monday \( admittedly long weekend , \) 800 messages days aside changing jobs last fall 've since 1990 anyone tried keep deluge \? inquiring minds want know ! also anyone keep track infamous posters alt atheism end , leave newsgroup \? curious , guess hell , norway \? rubber room funny farm \? seminary \? given us know jim perry perry dsinc com decision support , inc , matthews nc opinions nominal fee ,
acooper mac cc macalstr edu \( turin turambar , department utter misery \) subject strong weak atheism organization macalester college lines 14 faq ever got modified define strong atheists assert nonexistence god , assert believe nonexistence god \? thread earlier , n't get outcome adam nickname cooper adam john cooper verily , often laughed weaklings \( 612 \) 696 7521 thought good simply acooper macalstr edu claws
acooper mac cc macalstr edu \( turin turambar , department utter misery \) subject faith dogma organization macalester college lines 123 article 93apr20 neat cs toronto edu , tgk cs toronto edu \( todd kelley \) writes light happened waco , need get something chest sadly understandable faith dogma dangerous yes religion inherently encourages implementation faith dogma , reason , scorn religion fair , really qualify semitic western religions , basically go ahead later anyway expressed notion past christians debated whether christianity leaves room reasoning claimed rationality christianity faith dogma , really evaluated personal level example , one jesus \( presumably \) , probably n't say many things , yet \( seemingly \) billions billions christian sects arisen perhaps one totally dedicated rationalism believes christ pantheism would seem go bible , amazing people come guise personal interpretation philosopher cannot christian philosopher change mind , whereas christian cannot , due nature faith dogma present religion good point quintessential christian sets system values beliefs , work well , every event experience understandable within framework system however , also individual inability \( least without difficulty \) change , important , problem system system one cannot open minded point testing hypotheses basic premise system without destroying whatever faith invested therein , unless course , tests fail words , way would test evaluate without bias responsibility losing retaining system claimed christian , person whose beliefs moment correspond christianity consider person visiting guarding prison prisoner , unless define prisoner simply someone prison define prisoner someone moment prison \? define christian someone moment christian beliefs \? , person free go , prisoner similarly , person constrained faith dogma , christian interesting , , seems basically boil individual nuances \( although always , admit , probably mass oriented divisions appalling \) , becomes irrelevant , unfortunately admit 's word game i'm going dictionary definition religion n 1 concern exists beyond visible world , philosophy operates faith intuition rather reason , '' webster 's let 's go beyond word game n't claim religion causes genocide think humans atheist , would still genocide always humans n't think always humans n't ask real difference people different colored skin , different language , different beliefs granted religion like gun n't kill anybody religion encourages faith dogma although n't directly condemn people , encourages use ``just thinking ``just thinking kills people case people become bullets , religion , gun , merely offers way adequately harm , may bold extend \? sure , religion many good qualities encourages benevolence ok , take bad things like faith , dogma , tradition put good things , like careful reasoning , science result secular humanism would n't nice everyone secular humanist \? please , might even leave god , secular emphasis would cause start thinking , would realize belief god really n't put anyone ahead understanding universe \( ok , i'm poking fun \) also understandable \) course , humans capable thought , 'd still genocide maybe even mass suicide much i'm willing bet todd todd kelley tgk cs toronto edu department computer science university toronto best regards , adam john cooper verily , often laughed weaklings \( 612 \) 696 7521 thought good simply acooper macalstr edu claws
jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) subject yet rushdie islamic law organization boston university physics department lines 35 article mvo blaze cs jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \( ken arromdee \) writes article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) writes think many reading group would also benefit knowing deviant view 've articulated \( may true view khomeini \) basic principles islam point ov view atheist , see claim khomeini n't practicing true islam i'm sure would said , member neither group , supposed able tell one two really true muslim \? good point already made clear claim khomeini advocates views qur'an given arguments something checked anyone sufficiently interested khomeini , dead , really ca n't respond , another poster supports khomeini responded clearly sophistry quite clear atheists less susceptible modes , answer question , way judge learning islam , reading qur'an understanding 's basic principles one done relatively easy see following principles islam acting way odds islam khomeini superhuman status twelve muslim historical leaders variance one basic principles islam , human different human sense closer god metaphysical nature gregg
jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) subject yet rushdie islamic law organization boston university physics department lines 60 article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) writes article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) writes supports nothing reason believe piece anything another anti islamic slander job respect titles , real content look article want , true tell bcci islamic bank seeing i'm spending time responding propaganda \( responding little sub thread \) really n't feel deep need make statements effect propaganda false someone wants discuss issue seriously 'd glad real discussion , providing references , etc must admit thorough argument supporting proposition 'it 's say hope see might find argument compelling want refute point , , right well , , much poster replying quite busy really n't time respond full scholarly form every accusation made someone 's clearly antagonistic ever considered perhaps people actually believe say \? spreading propaganda \? considered someone spreads falsehoods ignorance still spreading falsehoods falsehoods generally come nowhere produced people know saying \( least \) whole truth still consider spreading falsehoods propaganda level i'm position say , since know nothing situation , estimation , qualify head ass bob , never accused head ass ! takes quite time dealing someone accusing head ass accusing original poster \( benedikt , believe \) impaired cheers , gregg
ray engr latech edu \( bill ray \) subject says apostles tortured \? organization louisiana tech university lines 20 distribution world nntp posting host engr latech edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 willingness true believers die belief , jesus jim jones , well documented , martyrdom says little say something depth belief religion deluded believers con men difference often far follow beliefs first hand , even second hand , knowledge original apostles died began myth hopes exploiting profit , followed myth death , would inconsistent real con men would bail obvious would lead discomfort , pain death story 1 kings regarding 450 prophets help debate one easily assume believed overwhelming elijah would forthcoming simply fool , would shown fire heaven swift seizure deaths equally swift
jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) subject yet rushdie islamic law organization boston university physics department lines 36 article unix portal com danb shell portal com \( dan e babcock \) writes article mvo blaze cs jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \( ken arromdee \) writes article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) writes think many reading group would also benefit knowing deviant view 've articulated \( may true view khomeini \) basic principles islam point ov view atheist , see claim khomeini n't practicing true islam i'm sure would said , member neither group , supposed able tell one two really true muslim \? easy read koran koran perfect , possibility disagreement \) \) okay , see smilies , n't supposed serious post hand , would suppose motivation behind apparently idea poke fun religion , presumably sort reasoning behind argument , statement worthless qur'an perfect religious text \( whatever might \) still plenty room disagreement implications issues far essentials 've already responded question judgment might made two people fact disagree islam , n't presume anything qur'an sufficient clarity important disputes basic principles islam hardly constitutes claim two people could disagreements issues relevant islam gregg
gmills chemical watstar uwaterloo ca \( phil trodwell \) subject societally acceptable behavior lines 75 organization university waterloo article c5qgm3 dl8 news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) writes cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) subject societally acceptable behavior date mon , 19 apr 1993 13 39 39 gmt merely question basis morality moral ethical behavior societally acceptable behavior 1 \) society 2 \) define acceptable \? 3 \) keep whatever legal moral position \? mac wow ! got thinking ! interesting question recently move society classify previously socially unacceptable yet legal activities ok past seems always two methods social control first \( explicit \) legal control set actions define currently illegal specifically defined set punishments secondly \( somewhat hidden \) social control actions considered socially unacceptable covered legal control , controled social ideally \( socialization working \) legal control hardly ever needed since people control actions due pressure social control manifests day day life guilt morality 've heard said \( fully believe \) n't vast majority people policing , legal control would absolutely impossible lately \( last 50 , 100 years \? \) however move attempt individual societal control \( ie ai n't illegal , n't pick \) i'm saying wrong , merely byproduct society 1 \) high education level , 2 \) high exposure alternative ideas via popular media , 3 \) high level institutionalized individual rights , 4 \) oriented culture guess i'm saying appear state transition , western world still many ideas ca n't allow people based entirely personal , yet fully bent maximizing individual freedoms max long freedoms n't impinge another 's imho society trying two mutually exclusive ends appreciate individual rights \( satisfy old dominance instincts \) , removal socialized , inherent fears based ignorance result continued destabilization society got quick fix idea get mess know would never consent roll back personal freedoms order society yet believe development societies follow process selects stability find social model freed 's yet stable \? perhaps possible live non stable society \? anybody see way \? comments \? ps therefore answer question 3 n't want \? phil trodwell space 'd happy ram goddam 440 volt cattle rent prod tub right , \( cheap \) radio ! hunter thompson
mccullou snake2 cs wisc edu \( mark mccullough \) subject gulf war \( death penalty political atheists \? \) organization university wisconsin , madison computer sciences dept lines 28 article 930420 rusnews w165w mantis co uk mathew mathew mantis co uk writes n't sell bastard arms information first place ruthlessly hunt especially 're positions power looked back , asked questions various people got following information claimed pooh us sold iraq arms navy entirely made f ussr vessels \( including stuff captured kuwait sure \) , n't include us equipment missiles non us tanks almost soviet , 100 french tanks \( older ones \) us stuff iraqi arsenal sold iraq iraq captured countries \( like kuwait \) information hard prove claiming us sold information \? prove , us build iraq \? gave fairly conclusive evidence us n't sell arms iraq information hard prove , almost certainly us sell information , fact classified , ca n't prove provide useful evidence us sold arms valuable intelligence iraq , interested , make claims based everyone knows mccullou whipple cs wisc edu never program drink beer 2 time n't work
geoff east sun com \( geoff arnold sun bos r h coast near top \) subject read rushdie 's satanic organization lines 15 distribution world reply geoff east sun com nntp posting host east sun com article bozo dsinc com , perry dsinc com \( jim perry \) writes anyway , since seem one following particular line discussion , wonder many rest readership read book \? thoughts \? read found wonderful reason \( flames , please \) , reminded , carl van \( , though \) geoff arnold , pc nfs architect , sun select \( geoff arnold east sun com \) made whole thing \? great lie four guys , two thousand years ago , wine tear garden
nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \( david nye \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization university wisconsin eau claire lines 62 reply frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) problem objectivist determine status moral truths method established accept judgements reports relate ought \( see naturalistic fallacy \) cannot proved facts nature world avoided least two ways \( 1 \) leaving good undefined , since anyone claims know either lying touch humanity undeserving reply good undefined \( undefinable \? \) require everyone know innately right , back subjectivism \( 2 \) defining good solely terms terms ditto statement implies value judgement part person making point objectivist may talk 'self evident pretty , prof flew deny subjectivist 's claim self evidence mind beholder \? course denying subject object true dichotomy please explain helps n't see argument , left claim moral judgements true \? nothing , moral judgements true thing commonly referred nihilism entails science value , fact people find useful anyone arrives relativism subjectivism argument beats makes sense either flew arguing objectivist winds , subjectivist furthermore , believed nothing except science , materialism , revolution , people subjectivist may well feel remains moral judgements would wish associate hold moral opinion , suggests , know something true preferences regarding human activity preferences include terrorism , moral opinion true likewise , preferences include , moral opinion true one choose set preferences include one includes \? oh , reason patently absurd also position subjectivist , pointed already others ditch strawman , already , see reply mike cobb 's root message thread societal basis morality david nye \( nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \) midelfort clinic , eau claire wi patently absurd whoever wishes become philosopher must learn frightened absurdities bertrand russell
nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \( david nye \) subject risen ! organization university wisconsin eau claire lines 16 reply kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) lord savior david risen ! seen alive ! spread word ! jeez , ca n't get anything straight told wait three days god david nye \( nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \) midelfort clinic , eau claire wi patently absurd whoever wishes become philosopher must learn frightened absurdities bertrand russell
nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \( david nye \) subject college atheists organization university wisconsin eau claire lines 10 read article poll done students ivy league schools reported third students atheists lot higher among general population wonder reasons discrepancy \? intelligent \? younger \? wave future \? david nye \( nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \) midelfort clinic , eau claire wi patently absurd whoever wishes become philosopher must learn frightened absurdities bertrand russell
nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \( david nye \) subject amusing atheists agnostics organization university wisconsin eau claire lines 31 reply timmbake mcl ucsb edu \( bake timmons kind ignorance demonstrated every post newsgroup instance , generalizations christianity popular newsgroup reading \? anti christian posts virtually response christian posting burn hell kind drivel i'm soft atheist \( courtesy faq \) , even know enough bible see repeatedly warns false prophets preaching name god bake , obvious theist pretending atheist probably think clever , see time possibilities creator eternity carry much emotional power dismiss merely basis line course dismissed atheist , right \? like religion , hard atheism faith words , n't read faq david nye \( nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \) midelfort clinic , eau claire wi patently absurd whoever wishes become philosopher must learn frightened absurdities bertrand russell
nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \( david nye \) subject 's shit \? \( amusing atheists \) organization university wisconsin eau claire lines 15 reply jimh carson u washington edu \( james hogan \) , 's someone shit latest know atheists arrival shows \? ignore bills , , \? try engage reasonable discourse \? flame among entertaining threads , war folks like bobby grown old time take view entertainment longer entertaining , kill file go david nye \( nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \) midelfort clinic , eau claire wi patently absurd whoever wishes become philosopher must learn frightened absurdities bertrand russell
madhaus netcom com \( maddi hausmann \) subject amusing atheists agnostics organization society putting things top things lines 26 timmbake mcl ucsb edu \( half bake timmons \) writes maddi whirr click whirr frank o'dwyer might also contained shell pop stack determine whirr click whirr killfile keith allen schneider frank closet theist o'dwyer maddi mad sound geek hausmann , , ! 've already named killfile keith nickname maddi never useful post hausmann , n't dare forget , half 's nothing higher , stronger , wholesome useful life good memory alyosha brothers karamazov \( dostoevsky \) really quote ivan karamazov instead \( \) , atheist maddi hausmann madhaus netcom com centigram communications corp san jose california 408 428 3553 kids , please n't try home remember , post professionally
robert knowles p00261 psilink com subject death penalty \( political reply 930420 rusnews w165w mantis co uk nntp posting host 127 0 0 1 organization performance systems int'l x mailer psilink dos \( 3 3 \) lines 17 date tue , 20 apr 1993 10 48 19 0100 mathew mathew mantis co uk 's great film called manufacturing consent noam chomsky media 's canadian film saw berlin film festival year get chance , go see ca n't really recommend books read i'm thinking ordering book reviewer claimed gives good introduction political activism could dig title mathew could chomsky reader edited james , published \?
robert knowles p00261 psilink com subject amusing atheists agnostics reply timmbake mcl nntp posting host 127 0 0 1 organization performance systems int'l x mailer psilink dos \( 3 3 \) lines 17 date 20 apr 93 05 23 15 gmt bake timmons timmbake mcl ucsb edu remember , koresh dried sins pass beef jerky umm umm though n't , least rely keep posted 's cook !
ednclark kraken itc gu edu au \( jeffrey clark \) subject societally acceptable behavior nntp posting host kraken itc gu edu au organization itc , griffith university , brisbane , australia lines 49 cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) writes merely question basis morality moral ethical behavior societally acceptable behavior 1 \) society society collection individuals fall self defined rules terms un decisions sets peoples represented un considered part society look us federal laws provided representatives purely us citizens society case would citizens us 2 \) define acceptable \? acceptable behaviours either legislated society representatives society behaviours non verbally , effect , non consciously , picking nose show , one , explicit law many cases definition whether behaviour acceptable , one deduce behaviours observation 3 \) keep whatever legal moral position \? increasingly litigation mad society , trap becoming exceedingly difficult avoid infusion strengthening ethnic cultures american \( australian , bring local perspective \) culture boundaries acceptable behaviour ever legislation may eventually become definition moral behaviour instance , dominant religion call live sacrifice domesticated animals fundamental christians would find practice however , moral , according american society \? kind problem may definable legislation obviously within society differences opinion acceptable behaviour , much due different environmental circumstances rather merely different opinions one thing sure , universal moral code suit cultures situations may , however , globally accepted agreed upon globally concept majority common peoples upon earth living similar environment \( ever happens \) jeff clark
healta saturn wwc edu \( tammy r healy \) subject go hell lines 42 organization walla walla college lines 42 article 1993apr20 nuscc nus sg cmtan iss nus sg \( tan chade meng dan \) writes cmtan iss nus sg \( tan chade meng dan \) subject go hell date tue , 20 apr 1993 10 33 45 gmt article 93106 psuvm psu edu jsn104 psuvm psu edu writes blashephemers ! ! ! go hell believing god ! ! ! ! prepared eternal damnation ! ! ! ! ! another one \? ! another letter big guy dear god , please take back heaven leave us rational , intelligent people alone love , meng unenlightened one tan chade meng light end tunnel singapore cmtan iss nus sg 's coming train meng , better prayer dear god , please save world likes ! ! ! tammy
healta saturn wwc edu \( tammy r healy \) subject go hell ! ! ! lines 31 organization walla walla college distribution na lines 31 article cbnewsj cb att com decay cbnewsj cb att com \( dean kaflowitz \) writes decay cbnewsj cb att com \( dean kaflowitz \) subject go hell ! ! ! date tue , 20 apr 1993 13 11 38 gmt article 27k portal hq videocart com , dfuller portal hq videocart com \( dave fuller \) writes jsn104 psuvm psu edu \( \) writes blashephemers ! ! ! go hell believing god ! ! ! ! prepared eternal damnation ! ! ! mean prepared \? \? surrounded thumpers like proven hellish enough i'm even dead yet ! ! well 's prepared got one big beach , gel pack ice things , big coleman cooler 've loaded miller draft \( like miller draft , sue \) , new pair new balance sneakers , sony watchman , couple cheese popcorn n't decided wear yet one wear eternal damnation \? dean kaflowitz wear nicest boxer shorts bring plenty spf 45 'll grab bathing suit , ! ! sound good enough , dean \? every poster invited ! ! ! tammy trim healy
david hunt bluelobster cmu edu subject death penalty gulf war \( long \) organization carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 54 1993apr20 883 batman bmd trw com nntp posting host po3 andrew cmu edu reply 1993apr20 883 batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com actually , fact situations existed prompted us allied action back water country took back water country , probably would n't intervene n't care , ca n't world 's coup occured kuwait \( instead invasion \) , still would n't acted would imminent danger perceived saudi arabia combination two , unprovoked invasion genocidal tyrant potential danger west 's oil interests , caused us take action many indications would taken place saddam wanting planning going saudi arabia none openly stated ex pentagon analysts pull jbrown batman bmd trw com i'm setting strawman want argue war , logical alternative allow hussein keep kuwait diplomatic alternatives , including sanctions , ineffective actually , reports mid east countries showed hussein ready make concessions due sanctions n't want wanted crush , well battle test high tech toys 've built years jbrown batman bmd trw com probably 're world ca n't police every country decides self destruct invade another strategic position get relief tibet , east timor , places 're also hypocrites first magnitude obviously , n't give shit freedom democracy care oil oh , excuse , soviets gone board , keep sizable military presence gulf region care make bets troops come home \? basically , saddam ok us killer , tortured people , used gas , horrors brutal dictator , brutal dictator said fuck us , became next hitler noriega bastard , bastard changed mind went way get rid david hunt graduate slave mind towards mechanical engineering ideas opinions palestinian carnegie mellon university use golden rule v2 0 jewish homeland ! h e r e n g h e r e n g email bluelobster cmu edu working towards piled higher deeper great day scientists engineers r money need religions beg money pay priest
acooper mac cc macalstr edu \( turin turambar , department utter misery \) subject societally acceptable behavior organization macalester college lines 95 article 10h news cso uiuc edu , cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) writes citation ksu ksu edu citation ksu ksu edu \( jonathan w newton \) writes article c5qgm3 dl8 news cso uiuc edu , cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) writes merely question basis morality moral ethical behavior societally acceptable behavior disagree society thinks irrelevant individual decides important n't seem right want kill , decide \? exactly although may answer , two personal societal morality person 's self generated learned set beliefs usually expressed purely mental verbal level , n't usually find expression society except impure \( sense bad \) \) state sometimes 1 \) society think fairly obvious really whatever particular society mandates ok ok , always society disagree mandates , societal mandates make standard morality \? also , one feels oneself part one society , real sense \? use obvious example , political society , racial society , gender society , sometimes always agree every issue 2 \) define acceptable \? generally feel right , idiotic policy think basis \? unfortunately admit tied least loosely feeling , think intuitively know things wrong awfully hard defend , though yes perhaps infamous want long n't hurt others \? problem merely saying morality n't specifically preferred behaviours 3 \) keep whatever legal moral position \? thinking might agree certain actions legal make moral 'll add hearty two however , one could well say certain actions moral make legal one still n't really get impression one truly right mac michael cobb wo n't raise taxes middle university illinois class pay programs champaign urbana bill clinton 3rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu new taxes spending cuts 'll still 310 billion dollar deficits michael cobb wo n't raise taxes middle university illinois class pay programs champaign urbana bill clinton 3rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu nobody explain everything anybody g k chesterton best regards , adam john cooper verily , often laughed weaklings \( 612 \) 696 7521 thought good simply acooper macalstr edu claws
acooper mac cc macalstr edu \( turin turambar , department utter misery \) subject societally acceptable behavior organization macalester college lines 55 article news cso uiuc edu , cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) writes guess i'm delving religious language area exactly morality morals \? hope one subject like spiral would morality morality morals labels n't make arguments one really needs solid measuring stick actions interpreted , even though would hardly seem moral example best thing ensure eat drink enough hence actions must weighed one statement whatever helps goal moral , whatever immoral course leads blank space many different ways fulfill goal , one would need hyper morality apply methods never thought eating meat moral immoral , think could differentiate something personal choice preference something see immoral \? fall basis morals \? seems consider something moral immoral stop think long enough \) hand , maybe first gut reaction \? knows perhaps way discriminate morals n't instinctively thing right \( way instinctively feel torture wrong \) , thought long enough listened arguments , could perhaps reason wrong \( possible ! \? \) \) see difference \? also , consensus positions fall might makes right , brought , whatever right societally mandated whoever control time makes right mc mac michael cobb wo n't raise taxes middle university illinois class pay programs champaign urbana bill clinton 3rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu nobody explain everything anybody g k chesterton best regards , adam adam john cooper verily , often laughed weaklings \( 612 \) 696 7521 thought good simply acooper macalstr edu claws
acooper mac cc macalstr edu \( turin turambar , department utter misery \) subject societal basis morality organization macalester college lines 89 article news cso uiuc edu , cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) writes 1993apr20 cnsvax uwec edu nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \( david nye \) writes reply cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) morals come societally accepted , follow \? right expect others follow notion societally mandated morality \? pardon extremism , could n't murder brother say exercising rights saw , felt good , n't want anyone forcing morality , n't follow morality \? believe morality subjective person entitled moral attitudes mine priori correct someone elses mean however must judge another basis rather moral standards entitled believe moral sense tells , rest society entitled pass laws spelling punishments behavior offensive majority \? \? might makes right \? force morality \? ca n't want \? decide \? disagree \? well agree sense moral right inflict rules , one thing might add least , almost everybody wants avoid pain , means sacrificing stuff herd morality , criminals see behavior moral may realize immoral care thus following moral system immoral good point , immoral opinion n't let choose , make decision actions wrong right , since grew learned around us , idea right wrong , think must , part , incorporated rarely see criminal behaviour philosophical reasons someone lay claim alternative moral system , must sincere belief must internally consistent sociopaths lack innate moral sense admit lean toward idea innate moral sense , little basis yet far concept extended \? \( stuff deleted \) mean could say would wrong us thing , behaving morally eyes chose basis condemn societies besides , 's buzz words , idea actions wrong humans societies \? holding morality subjective mean must excuse murderer \? objective suddenly \? david nye \( nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \) midelfort clinic , eau claire wi patently absurd whoever wishes become philosopher must learn frightened absurdities bertrand russell mac michael cobb wo n't raise taxes middle university illinois class pay programs champaign urbana bill clinton 3rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu nobody explain everything anybody g k chesterton best regards , adam adam john cooper verily , often laughed weaklings \( 612 \) 696 7521 thought good simply acooper macalstr edu claws
kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) subject go hell ! ! ! organization case western reserve university lines 16 distribution na nntp posting host b64635 student cwru edu article healta 161 saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu \( tammy r healy \) writes wear nicest boxer shorts bring plenty spf 45 'll grab bathing suit , ! ! sound good enough , dean \? every poster invited ! ! ! room \? , believe upstanding moral churches , nudity sin sole intention learning fly
acooper mac cc macalstr edu \( turin turambar , department utter misery \) subject free moral agency distribution world organization macalester college lines 19 article minster york ac uk , cjhs minster york ac uk writes saying physical adam eve , humans direct two human beings \? cain able 's wives \? could n't sisters , e n't daughters non humans \? genesis 5 4 days adam begat seth eight hundred years , begat sons daughters chris ho stuart still incestuous \) adam happened sig \? cooper
acooper mac cc macalstr edu \( turin turambar , department utter misery \) subject test ignore organization macalester college lines 11 test adam john cooper verily , often laughed weaklings \( 612 \) 696 7521 thought good simply acooper macalstr edu claws understand one another \? fear beyond comprehension gandalf
mccullou snake2 cs wisc edu \( mark mccullough \) subject amusing atheists anarchists organization university wisconsin , madison computer sciences dept lines 31 article timmbake mcl timmbake mcl ucsb edu \( bake timmons \) writes mccullou whipple cs wisc edu writes line atheists something sleeves seemed imply sorry , reading much clipper project lately , paranoia may \) clipper project btw \? clipper initiative announcement clinton secure voice phones use crypto chip , de facto government standard problem , government admitting hold keys break code easily , justice department using keys listen illegal activities many people really scared initiative major step towards outlawing real crypto protection things like email read press release project developed nsa given nist uses two keys s1 s2 government claims needed break code claim keys handed two different companies , get warrant wiretap \( chip wiretap chip \) , get keys companies people poked holes press release official version shown nowhere near nice sounds , given simplified version people sci crypt really scared proposal seems mccullou whipple cs wisc edu never program drink beer 2 time n't work
robert knowles p00261 psilink com subject pope jewish ! reply bruce cortex nntp posting host 127 0 0 1 organization performance systems int'l x mailer psilink dos \( 3 3 \) lines 35 date tue , 20 apr 1993 18 13 09 gmt r bruce rakes bruce cortex dixie com mcgoy unicorn acs ttu edu \( david mcgaughey \) writes always thought pope bear know , little saying bear shit woods \? pope catholic \? must connection two lines ! always heard bear catholic \? pope \? \? \? \? oh nevermind ! r bruce rakes , software systems manager instruments , inc 8 executive park w , suite 809 , atlanta , ga voice \( 404 \) 315 fax \( 404 \) 315 email bruce com anyone alabama knows bear catholic \? pope shit woods \? pope may bear , bear god \( paul bear bryant , football coach god , university alabama \)
marshall csugrad cs vt edu \( kevin marshall \) subject faith dogma organization virginia tech computer science dept , blacksburg , va lines 96 nntp posting host csugrad cs vt edu tgk cs toronto edu \( todd kelley \) writes light happened waco , need get something chest faith dogma dangerous religion inherently encourages implementation faith dogma , reason , scorn religion n't necessarily disagree assertion , disagree reasoning \( faith bad dogma bad religion \( faith dogma \) religion \( bad bad \) religion bad \) unfortunately , never state faith dogma dangerous believe faith dogma dangerous happened waco , missing point branch davidians made mistake confusing message messenger believed koresh prophet , therefore believed everything said problem n't religion , followers n't die faith dogma , died \( , case children , parents \) expressed notion past christians debated whether christianity leaves room reasoning claimed rationality christianity faith dogma christians totally irrational \? irrational respect religion \? saying \? one 's belief christian god make one totally irrational think know getting , 'd rather hear expand subject philosopher cannot christian philosopher change mind , whereas christian cannot , due nature faith dogma present religion , statement general christian perfectly capable philosopher , absolutely capable changing mind faith god belief , beliefs may change would assert atheists would make poor philosophers predisposed believe god , course , may show unfair bias studying , say , religion \? claimed christian , person whose beliefs moment correspond christianity consider person visiting guarding prison prisoner , unless define prisoner simply someone prison define prisoner someone moment prison \? define christian someone moment christian beliefs \? , person free go , prisoner similarly , person constrained faith dogma , christian , christianity prison , eh \? ever heard parole \? read far much subject christian one follows religion based teachings man named jesus christ nowhere definition imply one cannot change one 's mind prison , however , ca n't decide leave one voluntary , two compatible religion like gun n't kill anybody religion encourages faith dogma although n't directly condemn people , encourages use ``just thinking ``just thinking kills people prefer think religion water pistol filled urine 8 \) seriously , though , \( certainly \) religions condemn groups people common target infidel , curious alternately atheist , non insert specific religious affiliation , person different race , egyptian 8 \) please explain thinking kills people \( please state answer waco \) course , humans capable thought , 'd still genocide maybe even mass suicide much i'm willing bet 'll see raise religious zealot bad acne 8 \) way , n't aware mass suicide problem waco jonestown isolated incidents mass suicides far common kevin marshall computer science department virginia tech marshall csugrad cs vt edu blacksburg , virginia \( 703 \) 232 6529
marshall csugrad cs vt edu \( kevin marshall \) subject church o' satan \( islamic authority sic women \) organization virginia tech computer science dept , blacksburg , va lines 52 nntp posting host csugrad cs vt edu david rice ofa123 fidonet org writes marshall csugrad cs vt edu \( kevin marshall \) csugrad cs vt edu km yeah , hilarious satanists believe satan god , km god satan part christian mythology km therefore , one cannot reasonably worship satan without km acknowledging existence christian god satanists km see satan master , see god satan km adversaries similar power satanists believe km eventual overthrow god transfer power km master kevin marshall great many satanists believe satan , n't 'd go far assert orthodox satanists worship satan \( church satan , etc \) rather worship self hear lavey say , idiots fools believe satan allah knew suckers born every minute maximus 2 01wb anton lavey 's interpretation satanism always puzzled read satanic bible years ago social studies project , well book arthur lyons called cult devil worship america latter included interesting interview black pope indeed say satan merely instrument one realize self refer satanism , referring rural satanic witchcraft existed church satan n't consider lavey 's church orthodox , consider followers satanists lavey combined philosophies nietzsche , crowley , reich , slapped religious doctrine , added little touch p , creation church satan doubt title calculated attempt attract attention suppose could easily called church free sex rate , worked \( \) , church huge following , including hollywood celebrities sammy davis , jr jayne mansfield \( picture lavey sammy , way \) find idea believing satan credible christian believing christ include church satan , suppose need alter definition webster 's dictionary american heritage dictionary kevin marshall computer science department virginia tech marshall csugrad cs vt edu blacksburg , virginia \( 703 \) 232 6529
bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) subject read rushdie 's satanic verses \? organization tektronix inc , beaverton , lines 21 article edm 93apr20145436 gocart twisto compaq com edm twisto compaq com \( ed mccreary \) writes 're topic books , anyone else noticed paine 's age reason hard find 've wanting pick copy , bad enough mail order 've noticed though none bookstores go seem carry thought supposed classic 's deal \? local used book store second largest west coast , could n't find copy guess atheists hold bibles much esteem theists bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com said queens could stay , blew bronx away , sank manhattan sea
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject islamic genocide organization sgi lines 58 distribution world nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article horus ap mchp sni de , frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes article k fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes false dichotomy claimed killing religiously motivated , i'm saying 's wrong i'm saying every killing religiously motivate , spelled detail killings say religously motivated \? example , would claim recent assassination four catholic construction workers connection ira probably religously motivated time writing , think someone claims current violence motivated religion reaching would call someone writes killings n religously motivated \? , 's possible argue religion past major contributing factor violence present , n't know evidence i'm enough historian debate given aim ira take northern ireland country particular church written constitution , restriction civil rights dictated church , fail see word past appropriate claim killings n religously motivated means church believers always history ca n't face rewrite 're attacking different claim claim ira terrorist plants bomb motive greater glory god sorry , frank , put quotes words posting horus ap mchp sni de n't tell us 's different claim longer stand behind original claim , say mean thing say killings n religously motivated say terrorist plants bomb n't religious motive example meant clarify , new claim different claim refer claim seemingly attacking previous post , namely religion major historical cause present violence n't assert , assert opposite n't hand us bunch double talk seemingly attacking quoted attacking jon
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject inimitable rushdie organization sgi lines 16 distribution world nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article 1993apr19 3133 monu6 cc monash edu au , darice yoyo cc monash edu au \( fred rice \) writes jkj fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes understanding uk blasphemy laws \( yes , exist uk , although little used \) apply anglican christianity fit claim state religion uk \? n't ask approx two million british muslims break five times day never ever prosecuted \? ask easy hold christian church service saudi arabia jon
subject read rushdie 's satanic verses \? sham cs arizona edu \( shamim zvonko mohamed \) organization u arizona cs dept , tucson summary ! lines 58 article bozo dsinc com perry dsinc com \( jim perry \) writes anyway , since seem one following particular line discussion , wonder many rest readership read book \? thoughts \? read first came , controversy broke put name waiting list library \( way book really offensive , none money would find way author publisher \) , read , cover cover \( use phrase seems popular right \) liked writing style little hard get used , well worth effort coming similar background \( rushdie grew bombay muslim family , moved england grew new \) , made strong impression \( used many strange constructions indian english end sentence , , occasional phrase , etc \) time still sorta kinda thought muslim , could n't see flap seemed clear allegory clear described local prostitutes took names muhammed 's wives , \( grandfather \) implied muhammed 's wives prostitutes short , every angry muslim read even part book seemed missed point completely \( wo n't mention fact militant never even seen book oops , ! \) perhaps deep sense , book insulting islam , exposes revealed religion omnipotent deity need agent \? come directly , ca n't \? know muhammed n't go desert smoke something \? know scribes dictated quran n't screw , put little verses \? muhammed marry four women , muslim allowed \? \( although think biggest insult islam majority followers would want suppress book , sight unseen , say holy guy mention murder author \) years , made point , various primarily muslim posters responded , saying yes indeed read book called things filth lies , would rank rushdie 's book hitler 's mein worse , much response tried talk book really silly argument , many people read mein kampf \? made wonder afraid \? n't read book decide \? maybe reaction muslim community book , absence protest liberal muslims khomeini 's fatwa outrage , final push needed atheism ! shamim mohamed uunet , noao , cmcl2 ! arizona ! shamim shamim cs arizona edu take cross garlic 's mezuzah 's jewish page koran 's muslim 's zen buddhist , 're member league programming freedom write lpf uunet uu net
pww spacsun rice edu \( peter walker \) subject universe black holes , 2000 years organization n't , nobody saw , ca n't prove thing lines 24 article 1993apr20 iastate edu , kv07 iastate edu \( warren vonroeschlaub \) wrote let 's say drop marble black hole races , ever faster , towards even horizon , thanks space caused excessive gravity , object approaches event horizon travel integrating curve gives time reach event horizon infinity math says nothing enter black hole true observer rest infinite distance black hole see particle take infinite time reach horizon particle 's reference frame , takes finite time reach horizon singularity math indeed predict take look , thorne , wheeler 's peter walker n't forget sing say 's heaven wait say 's better , say ai n't 'd rather laugh sinners cry saints sinners much fun good die young !
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject yet rushdie islamic law organization sgi lines 25 distribution world nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article bu edu , jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) writes article afp fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes hope islamic bank something bcci , ripped many small depositors among muslim community uk elsewhere grow , childish propagandist example islamically owned operated bank someone bet n't real islamic owners operators \? islamic bank bank operates according rules islam regard banking done explicitly bank case bcci saying islamic bank something bcci would care explain said hope islamic bank something bcci , called childish propagandist jon
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject yet rushdie islamic law organization sgi lines 18 distribution world nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article 1993apr19 monu6 cc monash edu au , darice yoyo cc monash edu au \( fred rice \) writes difference , understand , one , one shares risk venture , whereas bank lends money charging interest , bank takes little risk entire business bank management risk 's bank 's people work banks something like anyway \( financial stuff ai n't thing \) ok , case posting \? hear saying n't understand stuff , islam says 's , 's jon
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject cruel \( political atheists \? \) organization sgi lines 30 distribution world nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article gap caltech edu , keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes spent quite bit time wording constitution realise widely held belief america , fact clause cruel unusual punishments , like lot rest , lifted english bill rights wording elsewhere mean n't spend much time wording part posting deleted , pointed used wording english bill rights apparently changing understood , asked , two hundred years later , bound keith allan schneider thinks understood already looked dictionary define word n't sufficient \? since dictionary said lack mercy intent inflict injury grief counted cruel , sure people described cruel way , punishments cannot one cannot say cruel fate \? getting increasingly unconvincing , think jon
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject cruel \( political atheists \? \) organization sgi lines 23 distribution world nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article 1993apr17 bmerh85 bnr ca , dgraham bmers30 bnr ca \( douglas graham \) writes article fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes article gap caltech edu , keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) writes spent quite bit time wording constitution realise widely held belief america , fact clause cruel unusual punishments , like lot rest , lifted english bill rights according jerry 's absence sacred \( good book , btw \) , great binding law iroquois confederacy also played significant role model u constitution furthermore , apparently marx engels strongly influenced study iroquois society , using prime example successful , , egalitarian , society goes say u u r would well study original document , figure went wrong , try get right next time 's fascinating heard chinese , rather italians , invented pasta jon
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject political atheists \? organization sgi lines 32 distribution world nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article gap caltech edu , keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes perhaps chimps failed evolve cooperative behaviour died , left ones evolve behaviour , entirely chance 's entire point ! , 's point evolution , point natural morality unless , course , suggested several times already , natural morality renaming going proclaim natural morality every time organism evolves cooperative behaviour \? yes ! natural morality morality developed naturally yes \? actually stronger agreeing every time organism evolves cooperative behaviour going call natural morality natural morality bee dance \? huh \? bee dance naturally developed piece cooperative behaviour jon
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject political atheists \? organization sgi lines 20 distribution world nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article 1993apr17 daffy cs wisc edu , mccullou snake2 cs wisc edu \( mark mccullough \) writes article afp fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes article gap caltech edu , keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) writes well , chimps must system live social groups , must laws dictating undesired behavior ah , verb must warned one back kindergarten , must laws \? jon hey , must verb languages happens modifier english , verb sentence modified must know must verb languages i'm complaining assertion containing word must jon
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject little satanic organization sgi lines 56 distribution world nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article mimsy umd edu , mangoe cs umd edu \( charley wingate \) writes jon livesey writes said people took time copy text correctly translations present completely different issues read papers texts different versions ot texts misunderstand \? reading newspapers learn kind stuff best idea world newspaper reporters notoriously ignorant subject religion , prone exaggeration interests real story \( , bigger headline \) let 's back 1935 point , masoretic text , various \( translations commentaries aramaic , etc \) , septuagint , ancient greek translation masoretic text standard jewish text essentially vary places obvious , copied faithfully copy copy passages past interpreted reference septuagint took time copy text correctly , includes obvious \? , septuagint differs masoretic text two particulars first , includes additional texts , second , passages variant readings masoretic text \( addition fixing various corrupted passages \) must emphasized , best knowledge , variations bible scholars , little theological import took time copy text correctly , exclude variant readings masoretic text little theological import dead sea scroll materials add ancient copy almost isaiah fragments various sizes almost ot books also abundance material , far know , sign hebrew apocrypha \( extra texts septuagint \) far analysis proceeded , also variations dss texts masoretic versions tend reflect septuagint , latter n't obviously error , though , differences \( thus far \) significant theologically big expectation great theological surprises lurking material , far n't happened dss important almost textual tradition ot , unlike nt hey , 're expert jon
danb shell portal com \( dan e babcock \) subject amusing atheists agnostics nntp posting host jobe organization portal communications company 408 973 9111 \( voice \) 408 973 8091 \( data \) lines 20 article andrew cmu edu nanci ann miller nm0w andrew cmu edu writes timmbake mcl ucsb edu \( bake timmons \) writes lies hypocrisy , dude atheism takes much faith theism admit ! besides believing god means one n't deal extra baggage comes ! leaves person feeling wonderfully free , especially beaten head years ! agree religion belief often important psychological healer many people reason think 's important however , trying force psychological fantasy \( n't mean bad way , 's really \) someone else n't interested extremely rude still believed santa claus said noted belief god imperative lack belief religion causes harm , belief god dan
halat pooh bears \( jim halat \) subject faith dogma reply halat pooh bears \( jim halat \) lines 33 article aurora engr latech edu , ray engr latech edu \( bill ray \) writes todd kelley \( tgk cs toronto edu \) wrote faith dogma dangerous faith dogma inevitable christians merely understand admit fact give proof god exists , whichever position take , forced faith good say take position , show interest existence god assume exist stuff deleted many posters said many posts lately , true show interest existence god takes faith make presumption knowledge possibility something enough require faith render interest different thing say n't believe something say n't sufficent reason believe something even interesting think 's either sometimes something else interesting occupies mind agree faith dogma inevitable , necessarily applied god religion takes faith dogma expect sun come every morning , overwhelming reason every single day , day day , everyone put faith dogma christian religion jim halat halat bear com bear stearns whatever n't kill serve annoy nyc speak
pww spacsun rice edu \( peter walker \) subject christian morality organization n't , nobody saw , ca n't prove thing lines 44 article 4949 eastman uucp , dps nasa kodak com \( dan schaertel , , , \) wrote article vice ico tek com , bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) writes yet still believer god concerned disposition \? beneath provide evidence would require believe \? evidence personality , given god , would find compelling \? fact god could cause believe anything wants think minute would rather someone love made love , wanted love would n't punish eternal torture n't love decent chap seems god n't responsibility love god take step toward promises , look 've looked , n't another promise broken doubt dispute givin sincere effort lying bastard ! know effort given \? simple logic arguments folly read bible see jesus made fools tried trick logic ability reason spec creation yet think ultimate rely simply reason never know learn must accept n't know anyone 's said \? peter n't forget sing say 's heaven wait say 's better , say ai n't 'd rather laugh sinners cry saints sinners much fun good die young !
pww spacsun rice edu \( peter walker \) subject go hell ! ! ! organization n't , nobody saw , ca n't prove thing distribution na lines 32 article cbnewsj cb att com , decay cbnewsj cb att com \( dean kaflowitz \) wrote article 27k portal hq videocart com , dfuller portal hq videocart com \( dave fuller \) writes jsn104 psuvm psu edu \( \) writes blashephemers ! ! ! go hell believing god ! ! ! ! prepared eternal damnation ! ! ! mean prepared \? \? surrounded thumpers like proven hellish enough i'm even dead yet ! ! well 's prepared got one big beach , gel pack ice things , big coleman cooler 've loaded miller draft \( like miller draft , sue \) , new pair new balance sneakers , sony watchman , couple cheese popcorn n't decided wear yet one wear eternal damnation \? dean kaflowitz dress casual heaven dress code \( black tie self important expression \) n't forget sing say 's heaven wait say 's better , say ai n't 'd rather laugh sinners cry saints sinners much fun good die young !
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject genocide caused atheism organization sgi lines 27 distribution world nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article 1993apr19 monu6 cc monash edu au , darice yoyo cc monash edu au \( fred rice \) writes jkj fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes article 1993apr14 monu6 cc monash edu au , darice yoyo cc monash edu au \( fred rice \) writes alt atheism think condemning actions call muslims , condemning islam read minds , mr rice \? know posters think , write \? , people posting go , 's commenting think may misunderstood mean one really criticize islam necessarily bringing khomeini etc argument , whether following islam determined examining actions islamic teachings islamic teachings contained qur'an hadiths \( reported sayings doings prophet \) 's funny , thought making statement people think fact , see quoted jon
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject genocide caused atheism organization sgi lines 13 distribution world nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article 1993apr19 monu6 cc monash edu au , darice yoyo cc monash edu au \( fred rice \) writes way , jon , found reference claim percentage population suffers depression increasing century \( requested \) start new heading \( thread \) post cool , discuss increase radio tv use , increase use fossil fuels , increase air travel , consumption processed bread , instruct us causes increased depression jon
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject genocide caused atheism organization sgi lines 24 distribution world nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article horus ap mchp sni de , frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes article k fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes area , care whether someone sceptical , critical autonomous one hand , gullible , excitable easily led indeed may one may atheist also gullible , excitable easily led would say tendency worship tyrants ideologies indicates person easily led whether worship belief supernatural hero rather earthly one seems beside point sure whether atheists discussing , whether easily led show hypothetical atheists gullible , excitable easily led concrete cause case would also discuss concrete cause , rather atheism , factor caused subsequent behaviour jon
tgk cs toronto edu \( todd kelley \) subject faith dogma organization department computer science , university toronto lines 89 marshall csugrad cs vt edu \( kevin marshall \) csugrad cs vt edu wrote n't necessarily disagree assertion , disagree reasoning \( faith bad dogma bad religion \( faith dogma \) religion \( bad bad \) religion bad \) unfortunately , never state faith dogma dangerous faith dogma dangerous cause people act faith alone , nature without justification mean word belief without justification , belief arbitrary justification , emotional \( irrational \) justification example , someone says god exists , n't know believe god exists , feel , 's faith dogma bad precludes positive change belief based new information , increased mental faculty christians totally irrational \? irrational respect religion \? saying \? one 's belief christian god make one totally irrational think know getting , 'd rather hear expand subject faith dogma irrational faith dogma part religion responsible irrationality individuals claim faith dogma quintessential part religion makes \( much context \) philosophy rather religion , live science religion , faith dogma philosopher cannot christian philosopher change mind , whereas christian cannot , due nature faith dogma present religion , statement general christian perfectly capable philosopher , absolutely capable changing mind faith god belief , beliefs may change would assert atheists would make poor philosophers predisposed believe god , course , may show unfair bias studying , say , religion \? noticed philosophers tend atheists \? philosopher atheist , tends called theologian christian tends consider christianity sacred christianity special set beliefs , sanctioned god , therefore , conceive changing beliefs question existence makes mistakes faith comes play dogma comes play ``the lord works mysterious example faith used reconcile evidence beliefs flawed sure , interpretations changed satisfy needs society , god says something , 's said , 's since god said , , even interpretations flawed science , \( would practiced atheists \) contrast , built defence faith dogma scientist holds sacred idea beliefs change suit whatever best information available time , , , , scientist understands current beliefs deficient way goal keep improving beliefs goal keep changing beliefs reflect best information currently available 's rational thing 's good philosophy see difference \? science views beliefs flawed , new information obtained improve \( many scientists would claim complete perfect understanding everything \? none would put job ! \) religion views beliefs perfect , interpretations beliefs must changed new information acquired conflicts please explain thinking kills people \( please state answer waco \) 's easier someone kill person n't require good rational justification killing n't consider 's , born jewish , ``this document says 's good rational justification way , n't aware mass suicide problem waco jonestown isolated incidents mass suicides far common clinton fbi would love convince would save us taxpayer lot money could todd
tgk cs toronto edu \( todd kelley \) subject faith dogma organization department computer science , university toronto lines 56 aurora engr latech edu ray engr latech edu \( bill ray \) wrote faith dogma inevitable christians merely understand admit fact give proof god exists , whichever position take , forced faith good say take position , show interest existence god assume exist consider special relativity n't proved , disproved one proof one way , many people interested ! 've satisfied nothing could indicate absolutely existence god one way two possibilities course set circumstances inconsistent , similarly , set circumstances inconsistent , phenomenon could described god considered part natural world , studied natural phenomenon \( gravity , instance \) example , loud voice announced , ``i god , exist , prove reversing force gravity , '' gravity indeed reverse , \( probably scientist \) would say , , sure n't understand gravity well thought , loud voice something new perhaps n't understand thunder well thought either '' contend proper implementation christian faith requires reasoning , reasoning cannot used throw things n't like , find uncomfortable sexual behavior condemned bible act true reason make less condemned hatred , murder , condemned god ordained murder bible \? bet , god ever orders kill , first use gideon like behavior verifying god actually ordered hit , probably discuss like fashion i'm sure glad n't know live , since n't seem realize impossible distinguish voices head , god 's voice hear , jim jones david koresh justify behavior delusional religious cults bear relationship christianity rape bears sex form substance southern baptist church methodist church begin reason blame mainstream religion behaviors people associate every negative behavior witness non christian \? seem missed point even jim jones david koresh religious people , point remains faith dogma dangerous , religion encourages jim jones david koresh also encouraged point rely jim jones david koresh religious todd
danb shell portal com \( dan e babcock \) subject faith dogma nntp posting host jobe organization portal communications company 408 973 9111 \( voice \) 408 973 8091 \( data \) lines 47 article aurora engr latech edu ray engr latech edu \( bill ray \) writes todd kelley \( tgk cs toronto edu \) wrote faith dogma dangerous faith dogma inevitable christians merely understand admit fact give proof god exists , whichever position take , forced faith good say take position , show interest existence god assume exist absolutely true without religion either established one one invent theist atheist equally \( \) interested god , without religious revelation information god available strip away dogma theists atheists different , simply holding different opinion matter little practical importance contend proper implementation christian faith requires reasoning , reasoning cannot used throw things n't like , find uncomfortable sexual behavior condemned bible act true reason make less condemned hatred , murder , condemned god ordained murder bible \? bet , god ever orders kill , first use gideon like behavior verifying god actually ordered hit , probably discuss like fashion sorry , n't help test apply decide whether god satan speaking \? know simply gone insane , delusions \? like loaded gun hear , jim jones david koresh justify behavior delusional religious cults bear relationship ah , stupid assumed \) southern baptist church methodist church begin reason blame mainstream religion behaviors people associate every negative behavior witness non christian \? yes 're together human making small part definition humanity dan
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject thoughts christians organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 21 article vice ico tek com , bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) wrote article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) writes know ca n't get physical problems passive christianity , unlike smoking 's hard avoid christianity today , anyway ignore 'em right keith , err , kent mean , n't see smiley \? ouch guess n't sorry comment fire cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject read rushdie 's satanic verses \? organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 23 article vice ico tek com , bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) wrote article edm 93apr20145436 gocart twisto compaq com edm twisto compaq com \( ed mccreary \) writes 're topic books , anyone else noticed paine 's age reason hard find 've wanting pick copy , bad enough mail order 've noticed though none bookstores go seem carry thought supposed classic 's deal \? local used book store second largest west coast , could n't find copy guess atheists hold bibles much esteem theists remember correctly prometheus books one stock , call ask book cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject age reason read rushdie 's organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 19 story kent , archetype finn , lives bay area , tried purchase thomas paine 's age reason man driving around , , books inc , well , place , , various places asked book , well educated american book store assistants placed asked check thriller section , said book published yet , receive book soon places assistants bluntly said n't know author , well known living author , n't keep copies books life times america , 200 years revolution cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
danb shell portal com \( dan e babcock \) subject thoughts nntp posting host jobe organization portal communications company 408 973 9111 \( voice \) 408 973 8091 \( data \) lines 19 article darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) writes james felder \( spbach lerc nasa gov \) wrote logic alert argument incredulity hard believe n't mean n't true liars look koresh cite whole basis great many rejecting christian account things words st madalyn murrey o'hair , face folks , 's silly okay disbelieve incredulity admit 's fallacy \? n't n't aware o'hair chick reader , n't support assertion argument whole basis great many rejecting dan
dgraham bmers30 bnr ca \( douglas graham \) subject thoughts christians organization bell northern research , ottawa , canada lines 17 article darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) writes kent sandvik \( sandvik newton apple com \) wrote social pressure indeed important factor majority passive christians world today case early christianity promise heavenly afterlife , independent social status , also promising gift \( reason slaves non romans accepted religion rapidly \) hypothetical proposition , say , 's fact , cite sources amateur sociologist sub branch however , would suffice alert screwing around would accept sources \? thing written lots books could start erich 's dogma christ doug graham dgraham bnr ca opinions
dgraham bmers30 bnr ca \( douglas graham \) subject cruel \( political atheists \? \) organization bell northern research , ottawa , canada lines 52 article 6e1 fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes article 1993apr17 bmerh85 bnr ca , dgraham bmers30 bnr ca \( douglas graham \) writes according jerry 's absence sacred \( good book , btw \) , great binding law iroquois confederacy also played significant role model u constitution furthermore , apparently marx engels strongly influenced study iroquois society , using prime example successful , , egalitarian , society goes say u u r would well study original document , figure went wrong , try get right next time 's fascinating heard chinese , rather italians , invented pasta 's fascinating take 're expressing skepticism idea ignorant savages could influenced constitution people stole continent could right , sounds plausible reason dismiss hand \? 's recent scholarship shown mid indians invited participate deliberations founding fathers , great binding law iroquois confederacy arguably became single important model albany plan union , later articles confederation constitution would absent school texts , history , media surprising given devotion americans feel founding myth great men gathered express new vision withstood test time revealed indians role , imagine blow american , men others gathered albany plan union , first try confederation , invited forty two members iroquois grand council serve advisors structures benjamin franklin freely acknowledged interest iroquois achievement famous speech albany congress would strange thing six nations ignorant savages sic capable forming union able execute manner ages appears , yet like union impractical ten dozen english colonies according , franklin meetings iroquois chiefs congressional delegates order hammer plan similar iroquois confederacy professor donald , jr , university california riverside whose book iroquois founding fathers american nation addresses issue doug graham dgraham bnr ca opinions
james f tims p00168 psilink com subject studies book mormon reply 1993apr20 leland stanford edu nntp posting host 127 0 0 1 organization , ltd x mailer psilink dos \( 3 4 \) lines 103 date tue , 20 apr 93 21 12 55 gmt carolyn jean leland stanford edu agrino enkidu mic cl \( andres grino brandt \) asks mormons mention events , places , historical persons later discovered archeologist \? one amusing things bom claim civilization existed north america , mystical plates found use steel metals , lots wars \( ot \) one ever found metal swords traces civilization native americans one example free inquiry , winter 83 84 , following introduction article joseph smith book mormon , george smith introduction written paul mormonism church jesus christ latter day saints claims worldwide membership 5 2 million one world 's fastest growing religions , many 200 , 000 new 1982 alone church 's aggressive missionary program , covering one hundred countries , spreading even third world countries mormonism moral outlook evangelical church run along strict authoritarian lines led president , allegedly receives revelations directly form god , group twelve apostles attempt maintain orthodoxy belief practice , church opposed abortion , pornography , sexual freedom , women 's rights , , view , immoral influences secular society , forbids use tobacco , alcohol , coffee , tea centered salt lake city , church extremely wealthy politically powerful many western states among well know present day mormons ezra benson \( former secretary agriculture \) , family , hotel empire , score high placed government officials mormon church founded western new york 1830 joseph smith claimed divine revelation found gold plates containing buried hill help visits angel able translate writing book mormon , basis mormon belief book , written commandment god , claims ancient hebrews settled america 600 b c e ancestors american indians mormons believe baptized true church reunited death deceased non mormon family members baptized proxy thus join relatives hereafter beliefs , mormons considered christian denominations heretics religious fundamentalists joseph smith controversial figure day worshiped saint denounced fraud persecution led band loyal followers , new york , ohio illinois , shot death mob brigham young , reportedly many eighty wives , took leadership church led mormons , found new zion salt lake city following teachings joseph smith practice polygamy perhaps mormons controversial practice nineteenth century america religions go back many centuries , 1200 years christianity , 2000 judaism , 3000 attempts examine beginnings difficult , extensive historical investigation mormon roots possible mormons willing examine history objectively , bu others maintain scrutiny dangerous faith following pages , free inquiry presents two articles mormon church first , george smith , lifelong member church , provides detailed critical examination joseph smith claim book mormon divinely revealed second , present portion interview philosopher sterling , also mormon since birth , questions treatment history church mormon authorities paul article super , , , , 666 ' , \( 0 0 ' `` ' , ` ' , \( \( c p00168 psilink com ` \) ,
qpliu ernie princeton edu \( q p liu \) subject christian morality reply qpliu princeton edu organization princeton university lines 14 originator news nimaster nntp posting host ernie princeton edu article 4949 eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com writes simple logic arguments folly read bible see jesus made fools tried trick logic n't cite passages focus discuss , following jesus , make fools us logic rely simply reason never know indeed , make assertion , must genius logic making fools us much easier qpliu princeton edu standard opinion opinions delta correlated
jgreen trumpet calpoly edu \( james thomas green \) subject logic jesus \? organization california polytechnic state university , san luis obispo lines 12 dps nasa kodak com pontificated simple logic arguments folly read bible see jesus made fools tried trick logic cite example please post answer n't want receive e mail \( james green \) \( jgreen oboe calpoly edu \) times nations , priest hostile liberty thomas jefferson
jgreen trumpet calpoly edu \( james thomas green \) subject islamic authority women organization california polytechnic state university , san luis obispo lines 18 kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) pontificated q many moslem men take rape woman \? five , one commit act , four witness penetration guilty verdict rendered confession least two male witnesses crime adultery rape proved four witnesses seen actual penetration , occurrence presumably happen often quran \( however 's spelled \) \? \( james green \) \( jgreen oboe calpoly edu \) times nations , priest hostile liberty thomas jefferson
jgreen trumpet calpoly edu \( james thomas green \) subject help god court \? organization california polytechnic state university , san luis obispo lines 11 've heard california ask swear without mention god states actually include god oath \? \( james green \) \( jgreen oboe calpoly edu \) times nations , priest hostile liberty thomas jefferson
frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization siemens nixdorf ag lines 111 nntp posting host d012s658 ap mchp sni de article 1993apr20 20756 abo fi mandtbacka finabo abo fi \( mats andtbacka \) writes horus ap mchp sni de frank d012s658 uucp writes article 1993apr20 abo fi mandtbacka finabo abo fi \( mats andtbacka \) writes ah , old , claim moral objectivism scientific objectivism n't agree try proving , objective moral test , disagreeing incorrect \) claim , deleted universal objective 've deleted , interest brevity go back step 'll see still post yes , claim refute , please firstly , apology n't deleted claim , mistaken saying sorry offence caused secondly , refute definition \? point logical implications , say seem contradict usage word objective areas indeed , definition , objective x oxymoron , x quibble belief , useless , objective perfectly good word , objective \? age universe , anyway , show many ages universe , still internally self consistent \? 'd amazed one many different moral systems different members society indeed , single individuals , cases humanity still stick together \? begging question people many opinions age universe humanity still stick together saying universe real age , independent beliefs \? age universe , like scientific facts , verified means 'll give result matter performs testing \( albeit error bars may side \) assumes universe real age , kind reality n't depend think extreme biblical creationist give rat 's ass means speak \? 've heard way verify morality consistent way , much less compute errors measurement care enlighten \? true pain , exist , predicted work accuracy better random guess wrote elsewhere morality hypotheses observed value moral system makes prediction better , tested , falsifiable way prediction drug relieve pain people 's ideas age object x objective idea like , ca n't stop ages another ballgame , dislike detail , 's problem opinion sure assume objective reality , get statements like claim morality opinion , subjective individual i'm wrong , less objectively real thing exists , label objective morality back positive claim existence \? back positive claim \? 's 's assumption make assumption values , basis logical difference two , empirical basis two precisely point morals , essence , personal opinions usually \( ideally \) well founded , motivated , nonetheless personal fact real large lot people agree moral question , sometimes even reason , make morals objective makes humans somewhat alike opinions moral question , good evolution social species real large lot \( nice phrase \) people agree football desk , i'm supposed see logical difference two \? perhaps explain difference , since seem see clearly take look desk e , perform test \( football \) \( accept theory \) else \( tell people 're \) take look morality see anything \? , please inform way look , look particular way , opposed get drift \? look claiming never know good means \? science whole matter altogether says prove disagree wrong \? 's simple \( \? \) matter proving track record scientific method think 's great , applied values may completely wrong , 's conclude result quite amount thought frank o'dwyer 'i'm hatching that' odwyer sse ie hens , evelyn conlon
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject thoughts organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 31 article darkside osrhe uoknor edu , bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) wrote kent sandvik \( sandvik newton apple com \) wrote article vice ico tek com , bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) wrote someone spank i'm wrong , n't lord , liar , lunatic originate c lewis \? 's campollo fellow anyway \? think , n't clear connection believe , absurd notion one original christians \( origen \? \) similar statement attributed anselm , believe may understand cases reason somewhat less exalted anyone posting could accept , means neither statement properly analysed bill , think misunderstanding atheism lack belief god directly imply lack understanding transcendental values hope would accept fact instance buddhists appreciate issues related non empirical reasoning without need automatically believe theism think reading couple books related buddhism might revise fine tune understanding non christian systems cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject christian morality organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 25 article pww spac at1 59 rice edu , pww spacsun rice edu \( peter simple logic arguments folly read bible see jesus made fools tried trick logic ability reason spec creation yet think ultimate rely simply reason never know learn must accept n't know anyone 's said \? ca n't seems jesus used logic make people using logic look like fools \? , sound right , maybe told fools , 's , people believed hmm , sound reasonable either find always intriguing see people stating transcendental values ca n't explained , next sentence try explain unexplained values highly strange cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject thoughts christians organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 28 article darkside osrhe uoknor edu , bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) wrote kent sandvik \( sandvik newton apple com \) wrote social pressure indeed important factor majority passive christians world today case early christianity promise heavenly afterlife , independent social status , also promising gift \( reason slaves non romans accepted religion rapidly \) hypothetical proposition , say , 's fact , cite sources amateur sociologist sub branch however , would suffice alert screwing around well , remember jacoby 's talks cite one source i'm sure christians read book addition social experiences raised educated lutheran , lot christian friends , even played two christian rock bands ! , , counter claims , sources et rest shows christianity concept social promise independent social status \? cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject islamic authority women organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 16 article darkside osrhe uoknor edu , bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) wrote credit religion awesome power dominate history misunderstand human nature , function religion course , history believe distort history way know exaclty 're , affect however , underestimate power religion creating historical events also big misunderstanding instance , would 30 year old war ever started fractions protestants vatican \? cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject death penalty \( political atheists \? \) organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 23 article 4mt darkside osrhe uoknor edu , bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) wrote fascinating atheists argue abortion , defend homosexuality means population control , insist values biological condemn war capital punishment according benedikt , something contardictory , cannot exist , case means atheists suppose would like understand atheist object war \( excellent means controlling population growth \) , capital punishment , i'm sorry logic escapes capital punishment , questioned , propriety killing punishment \? basis \? bill , ever heard secular humanism \? please check stands , revise statements cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) subject genocide caused atheism organization siemens nixdorf ag lines 32 distribution world nntp posting host d012s658 ap mchp sni de article 6e1 fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes article horus ap mchp sni de , frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes article k fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes area , care whether someone sceptical , critical autonomous one hand , gullible , excitable easily led indeed may one may atheist also gullible , excitable easily led would say tendency worship tyrants ideologies indicates person easily led whether worship belief supernatural hero rather earthly one seems beside point sure whether atheists discussing , whether easily led show hypothetical atheists gullible , excitable easily led concrete cause case would also discuss concrete cause , rather atheism , factor caused subsequent behaviour i'm arguing atheism causes behaviour merely relevant definition atheism , belief frank o'dwyer 'i'm hatching that' odwyer sse ie hens , evelyn conlon
frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) subject islamic genocide organization siemens nixdorf ag lines 49 distribution world nntp posting host d012s658 ap mchp sni de article 6e1 fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes article horus ap mchp sni de , frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes article k fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes false dichotomy claimed killing religiously motivated , i'm saying 's wrong i'm saying every killing religiously motivate , spelled detail killings say religously motivated \? example , would claim recent assassination four catholic construction workers connection ira probably religously motivated time writing , think someone claims current violence motivated religion reaching would call someone writes killings n religously motivated \? 'd say motivated primitive notion revenge , misguided patriotism otherwise , 'd wonder come mainland catholics killed mainland protestants , southern catholics killed southern protestants , take away plausible causes bar religion , violence diminishes markedly gee , \? , 's possible argue religion past major contributing factor violence present , n't know evidence i'm enough historian debate given aim ira take northern ireland country particular church written constitution , restriction civil rights dictated church , fail see word past appropriate country also different official language written constitution \( vice versa \) maybe 're motivated love irish poetry argument fallacious , jon 's worth , agree say ireland , frank o'dwyer 'i'm hatching that' odwyer sse ie hens , evelyn conlon
i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) subject islam scientific predictions \( genocide caused atheism \) organization technical university braunschweig , germany lines 20 article 1993apr19 monu6 cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au \( fred rice \) writes \( deletion \) \( god \) one created night , day , sun moon travelling orbit motion \( qur'an 33 \) positive aspect verse noted dr maurice bucaille geocentrism commonly accepted notion time \( long time afterwards \) , notion geocentrism verse \( anywhere qur'an \) well , certainly different , looks translation found everything way , surprised hear night day move orbit sun travels orbit without saying earth , , sounds geocentric benedikt
i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization technical university braunschweig , germany lines 88 article horus ap mchp sni de frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes \( deletion \) real large lot \( nice phrase \) people agree football desk , i'm supposed see logical difference two \? perhaps explain difference , since seem see clearly \( rest deleted \) 's fallacy , first time pointed 's fallacy note supermajority disinterested people agree value \( 're ethics yet benedikt \) , difference people agreeing trivial observation \? reference 's yet ethics dubious used terms absolute , objective others moral values , values , , worth , , usefulness infer fulfilled , intermission waste time assuming n't intend , reasonable conclude want argue point made interesting statement , namely disinterested observer thing morals probably shortest proof objective morality contradiction one , never given set morals people agree upon unlike football , conveniently ignore many would agree morality something analogy hold , however , given example value people agree , explained people agree freedom valuable also stated value necessary condition objective ethics assertion i'm talking , n't point talking ethics ca n't agreed fine freedom valuable generally agreed upon could name quite lot people state opposite \( n't mentioned \) words , nothing fulfill strong claims one expect sufficiently many people agree football , give evidence vanishing number disagrees set morals give i'm morals \( ethics \) ca n't get past values say , cogent objection 'freedom' example maybe people n't talking thing answer valuable maybe , want think , especially implications true clutching straw n't believe mappings metaphysical sets loaded terms deny morality freedom make quite clear say , practice telling yes , even willingly quite common religions , way one , religion named submission n't even try argue submission freedom , evidence , proof proof would evolve testing theory absolute morals competing theories garbage 's proof either , would argue case afraid considered proof one arguments reiterate never answer objections evidence preacher name fallacy something universally valued moral context benedikt
darice yoyo cc monash edu au \( fred rice \) subject yet rushdie islamic law organization monash university , melb , australia lines 37 afp fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes article bu edu , jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) writes article jkj fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes hope islamic bank something bcci , ripped many small depositors among muslim community uk elsewhere deletions example islamically owned operated bank someone bet n't real islamic owners operators \? yet actually turned long running quite ruthless operation steal money small often quite naive depositors islamic bank something operates different fashion modern bank , explained \( another thread \) example , islamic banks n't pay fixed interests deposits , return investments \( varies according market , fixed like interest \) islamic banks relatively new phenomenon islamic world islamic banks west , including usa , knowledge doubt market exists least islamic banks relatively early stage development case bcci certainly islamic bank bcci ever pay fixed interest rate deposits \? answer question yes , bcci islamic bank , islamic banks specifically set pay charge interest whether muslims partially owned bank whatever completely irrelevant fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au
subject death penalty gulf war \( long \) sham cs arizona edu \( shamim zvonko mohamed \) 1993apr20 883 batman bmd trw com 930421 rusnews w165w mantis co uk organization u arizona cs dept , tucson lines 62 unmitigated 've seen jim brown obviously possession right wing token diplomatic alternatives , including sanctions , ineffective december , former national security told senate committee sanctions costing iraq 100 million per day , coalition could take time world iraq , suggested , losing badly every day un demands , community nations every day taking life loss life washington newsletter world full evil , circumstances perfect many innocents suffer due wrongful actions others regretable , 's way wrongful actions murderers like leaders us government , perhaps \? regrettable , course way certainly media totally monolithic even conservative sources know look \( hurrah rush ! \) good heavens ! rush land ! conservative , ass btw , reason brought blanket bombing germany bemoaning iraqi civilian casualties deplorable yet blanket bombing instituted bombing n't accurate enough hit industrial military targets decisive way method time gulf war , precision bombing norm bullshit ! ! ! gulf massacre , 7 ordnance used smart rest 's 93 regular , dumb ol' iron bombs stuff forgotten pentagon definition successful patriot launch missile cleared launching tube damage \? successful interception scud defined patriot scud passed area sky \? 7 smart stuff , 35 hit try follow means 65 smart arsenal missed stories hundreds thousands iraqi civilian dead plain bunk prove source says date , civilian death count \( er , excuse , mean collateral damage \) 200 , 000 one attempted calculate costs execution washington state , studies elsewhere suggest costs far incarceration california spending 90 million annually capital cases , year n't executed anyone since 1972 texas , national leader number executions , spends estimated 2 3 million per execution compares average cost incarceration washington state 25 , 000 per maximum security prisoner per year shamim mohamed uunet , noao , cmcl2 ! arizona ! shamim shamim cs arizona edu take cross garlic 's mezuzah 's jewish page koran 's muslim 's zen buddhist , 're member league programming freedom write lpf uunet uu net
mccullou cs wisc edu \( mark mccullough \) subject gulf war \( death penalty political atheists \? \) organization university wisconsin , madison computer sciences dept lines 46 article 930421 rusnews w165w mantis co uk mathew mathew mantis co uk writes mccullou snake2 cs wisc edu \( mark mccullough \) writes looked back , asked questions various people got following information claimed pooh us sold iraq arms land mines already mentioned \? asked around one areas suggested , presented information got mention us given countries \( like kuwait \) information hard prove claiming us sold information \? prove information hard prove , almost certainly us sell information , fact classified , ca n't prove oh , neat dismiss everything say unless prove beyond shadow doubt something admit never prove satisfaction thanks , 'll stick circles mathew okay , going blindly believe things without reasonable evidence \? n't realize theist doubting claim presented without evidence support able present real evidence , great unsupported claims , even claims news agency accepted want stick sheer impossible , instead merely difficult , fine statement fact classified , ca n't prove , simple matter law access classified information know classified , reveal , good chance someone else \( person revealed \) , going jail never said could n't prove satisfaction , merely said difficult \( said try make things easy people arguing \) \( unless course , need \) mccullou whipple cs wisc edu never program drink beer 2 time n't work
jbrown batman bmd trw com subject gulf war peace niks distribution world lines 44 article fido asd sgi com , livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes article 1993apr20 882 batman bmd trw com , jbrown batman bmd trw com writes article 1993apr20 bmerh85 bnr ca , dgraham bmers30 bnr ca \( douglas graham \) writes wait minute , doug know better informed us never invaded nicaragua \( far know \) us invaded nicaragua several times century , including october 1912 , february 1927 haiti occupied 1915 thanks jon forgotten 1912 1927 invasions \( ever learned mean really forgot ! \) read context recent , expecting imminent invasion u never happened stand corrected thanks panama invaded , true \( twice century \) us created panama first place civil war republic colombia us troops landed colombia , help uprising , colombia duly replaced two countries , order us could build panama canal new republic panama remembered one one bush 's invasion two mentioned good ol' teddy r knew get things done ! jon regards , jim b
danb shell portal com \( dan e babcock \) subject christian morality nntp posting host jobe organization portal communications company 408 973 9111 \( voice \) 408 973 8091 \( data \) lines 33 article eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com writes article ousrvr oulu fi , kempmp phoenix oulu fi \( petri pihko \) writes dan schaertel , , , \( dps nasa kodak com \) wrote mean \? learn must accept n't know something , right learn must accept something n't know , \? way prefer learn unwise merely swallow everything read suppose write book telling great invisible pink unicorn \( tm \) helped daily problems , would accept , since ca n't know whether true \? one asks swallow everything , fact jesus warns let ask question beleive learn history class , matter anything school mean 's people told n't want swallow others say right \? right way get sceptical heart say given sincere effort attitude seem must trust , go church participate 's activities ever willing die believed \? branch dividians believed trusted much became impossible turn back reality advocating total irreversible brainwashing dan
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject genocide caused atheism organization sgi lines 33 distribution world nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article horus ap mchp sni de , frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes article 6e1 fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes article horus ap mchp sni de , frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes article k fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes area , care whether someone sceptical , critical autonomous one hand , gullible , excitable easily led indeed may one may atheist also gullible , excitable easily led would say tendency worship tyrants ideologies indicates person easily led whether worship belief supernatural hero rather earthly one seems beside point sure whether atheists discussing , whether easily led show hypothetical atheists gullible , excitable easily led concrete cause case would also discuss concrete cause , rather atheism , factor caused subsequent behaviour i'm arguing atheism causes behaviour merely relevant definition atheism , belief throw away faq ask mr o'dwyer , since define thing rest us talk jon
mccullou cs wisc edu \( mark mccullough \) subject gulf war selling arms organization university wisconsin , madison computer sciences dept lines 46 article 930421 rusnews w165w mantis co uk mathew mathew mantis co uk writes jbrown batman bmd trw com writes mathew , agree , seems , crux whole position , n't \? us n't supported hussein sold arms fight iran \? agree agree ruthlessly hunting sell arms hussein , 's done deal invades kuwait sit back say , well , sold arms , suppose wants use bad kuwait , unfortunately , sitting back letting things way correct former mistake destroying hussein 's military potential right move agree statement , reagan bush made grave error judgment sell arms hussein 's still happening 's entire point last month , john major great victory personally secured sale arms saudi arabia month , sold jet fighters indonesian government 's busy killing east heard arms sale saudi arabia , grave mistake sell saudi arabia weapons \? claiming n't sell weapons countries \? straightforward answer please 's well say oops , made boo boo , better clean mistake , us uk keep making mistake often ca n't believe 's deliberate suspicion reinforced fact mistake extremely profitable one economy reliant arms sales benefits arms sales \? hint , n't normally gov't contractor builds piece equipment believe , us uk n't export huge quantities arms accused arms exports rare enough , requires act congress non small arms countries , believe telling everyone , sell goods \? mathew mccullou whipple cs wisc edu never program drink beer 2 time n't work
\( rashid \) subject yet rushdie islamic law nntp posting host organization nh lines 231 article 1993apr17 801 monu6 cc monash edu au , darice yoyo cc monash edu au \( fred rice \) wrote stuff deleted , believe blindly following anyone , matter knowledgeable may islamic law someone tells islam says , immediately say show support statement qur'an sunnah believe islamic duty , according one hadith prophet \( peace blessings god \) , leader tells enter fire , \( kill \) , sinned wrong , even though blindly following instructions leader responsible actions , abu , imam malik , etc , even blindly following opinions abu etc mind , understanding , must look reasoning behind opinions muslims support khomeini 's fatwa , understanding , hadith upon support khomeini 's fatwa relating particular instance occurred war time , brother , general , imho ridiculous wrong say hadith relating actions war usable times peace think sensible human see , personally think reasoning ulema matter faulty , think legitimate use acts war times peace regarding particular subject think wrong , please feel free say , reasoning qur'an hadith , please somebody said , want reasoning al qur'an hadiths perhaps take discussion soc religion islam please email , rashid , think way , also disagree opinion regarding punishment apostasy viewpoint follow general punishment apostasy strongly supported qur'an hadith well shown book punishment islamic law mohamed el \( american trust publications , 1981 \) reiterate would agree little justification punishment apostasy qur'an islamic history , well , apostasy rarely punished belief considered matter conscience since compulsion matter belief , generally left believe believe however , apostate makes attacks upon god messenger situation changes charge apostasy may complicated charges perhaps charges , treason , spying , etc person makes public issue apostasy mounts public attacks \( opposed arguement \) islam , situation likewise complicated person spreads slander broadcasts falsehoods , situation changes punishments vary according situation apostate anyhow , charge aggravated apostasy would subsidiary charge rushdie 's case distinction qur'an formal war situation situation someone unilaterally wages war \( actions \) , creates disorder , makes mischief , etc muslims creates situation results harm muslims , small group even single individual could said engaged practise words , clear difference formal war situation \( two clearly defined parties wage war , conclude treaties , exchange prisoners , etc \) , dealing attacks come isolated individuals groups islam second situation , unilateral attack spreading fasad would apply case rushdie matter rushdie simple matter banning offensive book \( banning book secondary \) full set circumstances following publication book come play well , including deaths many muslims , rushdie 's \( publishers \) media games , believe blindly following anyone , matter knowledgeable may islamic law someone tells islam says , immediately say show support statement qur'an sunnah believe islamic duty , according one hadith prophet \( peace blessings god \) , leader tells enter fire , \( kill \) , sinned wrong , even though blindly following instructions leader responsible actions , abu , imam malik , etc , even blindly following opinions abu etc , understanding , hadith upon support khomeini 's fatwa relating particular instance occurred war time , brother , general , imho ridiculous wrong say hadith relating actions war usable times peace think sensible human see , personally think reasoning ulema matter faulty , think legitimate use acts war times peace regarding particular subject sure hadith referring believe one verses fatwa based 5 33 every verse qur'an corresponding circumstance revelation way understanding \( \) verse restricted solely particular historical circumstance revealed case could say laws regulations revealed muslims involved conflict , suspended war logic follow complex , real life situations , may many verses many hadiths related single , complicated situation internal relationships verses may quite complex , arriving understanding verses applies particular situation quite demanding task necessarily simple process may many parameters involved , may larger context particular situation viewed matters impinge situation words great deal involved qur'an qur'an asks us reflect verses , reflection must entail simply reading verse corresponding hadith reflection sake increasing personal , person level understanding harm however , reflection order decide matters pertain state , laws rulings , society , justice , guidance community , certain minimum requirements understanding one achieve ibn muhammad \( \) relates requirements , taught prophet \( \) , hadith distinguish book allah verse one , specific one general one , decisive ambiguous differentiate permission obligation , recognize verse period one , know circumstances revelation , understand technical words qur'an \( whether simple compound \) comprehend knowledge decree measure , ignorant advancing delaying \( verses \) distinguish clear deep , manifest esoteric , beginning termination unaware question answer , joining , exceptions inclusive , ignorant adjective preceding noun explains subsequent one unaware emphasized subject detailed one , obligatory laws , places duties rules , meaning lawful unlawful know joined words , words related coming , man know qur'an among people qur'an based hadiths , accordance many verses \( company every group remain behind gain profound understanding \( \) religion warn people return , may beware \( 9 122 \) \) , science arose requirements person considered \( one pronounce matters law religion \) many 've listed major divisions , course , many subdivisions within headings knowledge arabic \( syntax , , roots , semantics , \) knowledge principles logic \( \) knowledge hadiths knowledge transmitters \( \) knowledge principles \( qur'an , sunnah , consensus , reasoning \) study qur'an sunnah purposes law involves discussion \( \) discussion negative \( \) discussion generalities \( wa \) discussion unconditional conditional discussion tacit meanings discussion abstract clear discussion principles application law involves principles exemption principles precaution principles option principles bound go rigorous process judgement given situation matter looking one verse one hadith one blindly follow anyone , difference blind following opinion someone clearly knowledgeable qualified oneself famous hadith prophet \( \) says \( religious scholars \) prophet , long concern illicit desires , pleasures , wealth world prophet \( \) asked messenger god ! may know concern \? \( \) replied seeing whether follow ruling power , fear religion shun yet know enough imams four sunni comment hadith applies contemporary scholars base upon prophet also refered fortress islam point make clear arriving legal judgement calls play certain amount expertise specifics expertise qur'an hadith acquire expertise praised qur'an hadith without requisite knowledge pronounce matters affect society , state , religion reason said anything rushdie affair group , whole basis discussion fatwa \( , apostasy \) , wrong one discusses something least base discussion fact secondly , khomeini condemned heretic supposedly claimed infallible another instance creating straw man beating perhaps take discussion soc religion islam please email , rashid , think agree move discussion another newsgroup unfortunately , access email , private discussion moderated group question \( cannot post moderated group like soc religion islam soc culture arabic talk religion misc \? salaam laikum
\( rashid \) subject yet rushdie islamic law nntp posting host organization nh lines 19 article bu edu , jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) wrote already made clear claim khomeini advocates views qur'an given arguments something checked anyone sufficiently interested khomeini , dead , really ca n't respond , another poster supports khomeini responded clearly sophistry quite clear atheists less susceptible modes n't mind saying best example obfuscation condemn without even basic facts straight want examples , go back look previous posts , manage get facts wrong fatwa khomeini 's supposed infallibility salaam laikum
kempmp phoenix oulu fi \( petri pihko \) subject consciousness part ii kev strikes back ! organization university oulu , finland x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 207 kevin anthoney \( kax cs nott ac uk \) wrote \( reply \) diplomatic \) society constantly verge flaming , usenet , diplomacy best way ensure voice reason gets , n't \? realize i'm fighting occam 's razor argument , 'll try explain feel mind necessary kevin , unfortunately delving field know little , algorithms reasoning , see , much along lines roger , claimed mathematical cannot algorithmic book emperor 's new mind concerning computers , minds , laws physics however , 's claim mathematical insight , similar claim collapse consciously take look , could illusions taking different viewpoints try ponder problem consciousness evolutionary perspective , might anything special , certainly useful thinking back wrote , think worms minds \? able experience pain , least behave like yet conceivable might day future perform total synthesis c elements would worm mind \? firstly , i'm impressed ability algorithms 're great solving problems method worked , working method true extent however , think brains work like computers , fact , substantial evidence \( , 1985 freeman 1987 \) brains work less , generating enough randomness mental states evolve brains work much like genetic algorithm generators , suppose trick still form discovered mean ideas ever already pre programmed brains \? somewhat unlikely , given brains ultimately encoded 46 worth genetic material , much n't used indeed , extremely unlikely , given vast impact mind brain suggest , however , trying understand consciousness collection algorithms kevin , take look references mentioned , think still think best experts nature conscious mind neurologists , biologists \( flame opinions \) , since study beings conscious reason repeating advice discussion cannot lead anywhere backgrounds different please , bring qm discussion physicists happy claim consciousness plays special role physics would say n't problem algorithms instability many algorithms survive take large portion code , yet people survive strokes without going completely haywire \( side effects , patients still seem remarkably stable \) also , neurons perfectly healthy people dying alarming rate algorithm survive randomly corrupt various bits 's code \? , brains computers n't forget mean need something else work work differently primary perception guidance action , self awareness high intelligence later appearances next problem sticky question colour \? \( replace sensation choice \) presumably , viewpoint 's product kind chemical reaction usual products reaction energy different chemicals colour mixture \? still expecting could find idea brains somewhere , perhaps form chemical see sensation certain time dependent pattern area v4 visual cortex , distributed help areas v1 v2 rest brain indeed , firing pattern sometimes thought consciousness global free induction pattern local firing patterns , idle speculation scientific american 's september 1992 issue special issue mind brain already read cover cover \? \) two articles visual perception , might interested , please note subjective experiences cannot observed third person perspective see nothing activity , cannot go conclude mind \( 1988 \) writes numerous examples electric stimulation different areas brain led various changes state mind instance , patient whose area stimulated \( without knowledge \) remote control psychiatric interview quickly cured depression , started discussing plan seduce girlfriend temporal lobe sometimes led embarrassing situations , patients started therapist conclusion , evidence 1 \) brains essentially necessary subjective experiences , brain damage usually equivalent sort mind damage 2 \) conscious processes involve substantial brain activity various areas brain think colours , visual cortex activated etc 3 \) consciousness become conscious actions half second delay , brains ahead least 350 ms thus , think turn question see colours around ask seems observing \? , since seems conscious mind king brains , computer wo n't see colour , chemistry different algorithm sees colour selective advantage equivalent n't \? n't , outputs algorithm ought equivalent circumstances see colour \? depends meant neural network capable handwritten numbers 0 9 see numbers , capable sorting \? asking , animal conscious observer evolutionary advantage animal n't , good answer read previous posting , wrote sense identity helps social animals swap roles act morally , n't kill newly discovered weapons \( bit extreme , basic idea \) early homo became efficient using tools , sense identity concept evolve line development indeed , respect others conscious behaviour might evolutionary advantages social animals , early humans remember correctly , quantum mechanics consists wavefunction , two processes acting first process called \( \) , governed 's equation well known second process , called various things 'state vector \( 'r' \) , mysterious usually said occur takes place , although nobody seems know precisely occurs occur , effect r abruptly change wavefunction minds required , mean human minds came scene , never collapsed , remained \? , powerful discussed , think topic irrelevant , since agree minds necessary , neither physicists anyway , i'm speculating minds would part x seems link consciousness r , never see linear anything , although alternative explainations 've idea brain supposed access part x , since speculation , wo n't matter much \) main point might place minds physics agree , sense apparently mean physics needs sharp minds solve many real problems \) 'll go back nice padded cell , 's ok \) 's ok , n't forget take references wrote previous posting , plus following , james w \( 1988 \) biological psychology 3rd ed , publishing company , belmont , ca 1988 , c \( 1985 \) explaining behavior bringing brain back inquiry 29 187 202 , c freeman , w \( 1987 \) brains make chaos order make sense world behavioral brain sciences 10 161 173 petri ' '' petri pihko kem pmp mathematics truth ! ' ' ' ' ' pihatie 15 c finou oulu fi physics rule ' ' ' sf 90650 oulu kempmp game ' finland phoenix oulu fi chemistry game
kempmp phoenix oulu fi \( petri pihko \) subject consciousness part ii kev strikes back ! organization university oulu , finland x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 30 scott sauyet \( ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu \) wrote 1993apr21 cs nott ac uk kevin anthony \( kax cs nott ac uk \) writes firstly , i'm impressed ability algorithms 're great solving problems method worked , working method example deleted heard neural networks \? 've read little , seems overcome objections i'm sure many people work neural networks read newsgroup please tell kevin 've achieved , expect saying solve problems , think show hard think come mechanical models consciousness indeed think dualism non solution , , recently put , dead horse petri ' '' petri pihko kem pmp mathematics truth ! ' ' ' ' ' pihatie 15 c finou oulu fi physics rule ' ' ' sf 90650 oulu kempmp game ' finland phoenix oulu fi chemistry game
kax cs nott ac uk \( kevin anthoney \) subject consciousness part ii kev strikes back ! organization nottingham university lines 102 article 1993apr17 ousrvr oulu fi kempmp phoenix oulu fi \( petri pihko \) writes kevin anthoney \( kax cs nott ac uk \) wrote post probably either brilliant insane let know \) brilliant example using objection theories consciousness diplomatic \) realize i'm fighting occam 's razor argument , 'll try explain feel mind necessary firstly , i'm impressed ability algorithms 're great solving problems method worked , working method specific example , like solve numerical \( simple sums insert answers type , hard ones \) efficiency , need figure variety tricks , know program computer puzzles , work tricks , program computer , course , trick , write program uncovered , far see , trick still form discovered mean ideas ever already pre programmed brains \? somewhat unlikely , given brains ultimately encoded 46 worth genetic material , much n't used one way around bring environment equation , \( , far see \) still air 'if see object x , perform action , ' n't seem get anywhere algorithm anticipate might see , conclusions draw 's experience problem algorithms instability many algorithms survive take large portion code , yet people survive strokes without going completely haywire \( side effects , patients still seem remarkably stable \) also , neurons perfectly healthy people dying alarming rate algorithm survive randomly corrupt various bits 's code \? next problem sticky question colour \? \( replace sensation choice \) presumably , viewpoint 's product kind chemical reaction usual products reaction energy different chemicals colour mixture \? , computer wo n't see colour , chemistry different algorithm sees colour selective advantage equivalent n't \? n't , outputs algorithm ought equivalent circumstances see colour \? however , view actually minds able act observers , feel pain pleasure issue commands better brain \? moreover , interactions occur \? bit idle speculation remember correctly , quantum mechanics consists wavefunction , two processes acting first process called \( \) , governed 's equation well known second process , called various things 'state vector \( 'r' \) , mysterious usually said occur takes place , although nobody seems know precisely occurs occur , effect r abruptly change wavefunction r interaction wavefunction else , ' shall call x ' seems reasonable assume something causes r , although something might wavefunction \( case , part x simply wavefunction note , though , 'd need u explain r \) anyway , i'm speculating minds would part x seems link consciousness r , never see linear anything , although alternative explainations 've idea brain supposed access part x , since speculation , wo n't matter much \) main point might place minds physics 'll go back nice padded cell , 's ok \) petri kevin anthoney kax cs nott ac uk n't believe anything read sig files
pww spacsun rice edu \( peter walker \) subject christian morality organization n't , nobody saw , ca n't prove thing lines 47 article eastman uucp , dps nasa kodak com \( dan schaertel , , , \) wrote life , death , resurection christ documented historical fact standard history 've seen care back , sans lies apologists fond \? however major events life jesus christ hundreds years neat trick uh \? really prophesies n't even prophesies 're prayers comments taken torah quite context seems started lying right beginning way get sceptical heart say given sincere effort attitude seem 're arrogant ass , n't \? must trust , go church participate 's activities 're wrong think n't trust something n't exist ever willing die believed \? i'm still willing die believe n't believe loonies waco \? besides , point 's die one believes point 's make sorry son bitch die believes ! \) n't anyone else get tired \? peter , damned proud ! n't forget sing say 's heaven wait say 's better , say ai n't 'd rather laugh sinners cry saints sinners much fun good die young !
pww spacsun rice edu \( peter walker \) subject cults vs religions \? organization n't , nobody saw , ca n't prove thing lines 25 article 7hg aurora engr latech edu , ray engr latech edu \( bill ray \) wrote james thomas green \( jgreen trumpet calpoly edu \) wrote conclusion shown essentially logical argument clearly differentiates cult religion challenge anyone produce distinction clear ca n't easily knocked one religion cult stood test time religion cult got co opted people better irrationality peter n't forget sing say 's heaven wait say 's better , say ai n't 'd rather laugh sinners cry saints sinners much fun good die young !
mccullou cs wisc edu \( mark mccullough \) subject gulf war peace niks organization university wisconsin , madison computer sciences dept lines 45 article 930421 rusnews w165w mantis co uk mathew mathew mantis co uk writes jbrown batman bmd trw com writes problem peace niks consider us like bad unconscionable would argument problem peace nik held ideals stayed conflicts issues , especially dealing national defense , willing allow us legitimately hold different point view many times resort violence name peace yawn another right wing wasp imagining 's oppressed minority perhaps right personal attacks \? would argument problem peace nik stayed conflicts issues \? bet would n't 'd love deliberate misinterpretation persons statement \? \( cutting part statement , tries blunt thrust sentence never addresses issue peace people holding true ideals \) makes think sitting back , saying nothing defense issues , letting people like make decisions anything ideals \? ignoring challenge \? \( ignores challenge peace tend quite insistent everyone accept ideals world , even turned quite violent \( witness , chicago , summer 1968 \) \) mathew paranoia \? \( assumes anyone argues viewpoint must masturbate \) fire oven , n't hot enough ! mccullou whipple cs wisc edu never program drink beer 2 time n't work
mccullou snake2 cs wisc edu \( mark mccullough \) subject death penalty gulf war \( long \) organization university wisconsin , madison computer sciences dept lines 75 article 37501 optima cs arizona edu sham cs arizona edu \( shamim zvonko mohamed \) writes unmitigated 've seen jim brown obviously possession right wing token diplomatic alternatives , including sanctions , ineffective december , former national security told senate committee sanctions costing iraq 100 million per day , coalition could take time world iraq , suggested , losing badly every day un demands , community nations every day taking life loss life washington newsletter understand , number deceptive reason money cost non oil sales part iraq still allowed sell oil , many things initial sanctions , still surviving btw , reason brought blanket bombing germany bemoaning iraqi civilian casualties deplorable yet blanket bombing instituted bombing n't accurate enough hit industrial military targets decisive way method time gulf war , precision bombing norm bullshit ! ! ! gulf massacre , 7 ordnance used smart rest 's 93 regular , dumb ol' iron bombs stuff forgotten pentagon definition successful patriot launch missile cleared launching tube damage \? successful interception scud defined patriot scud passed area sky \? 93 \( heard figures closer 80 , wo n't quibble figures \) , dropped carpet bombing regions occupied enemy troops b 52 drops lot bombs one , used around clock mention smaller aircraft using dumb munitions 2 patriot uses proximity fuse adjusted figures number patriot kills ss 1 60 70 figure came fluke pentagon , someone working stuff another part dod 3 statement precision bombing norm , true around areas civilians close target dropped little bombs populated regions , explaining figures 7 smart stuff , 35 hit try follow means 65 smart arsenal missed figure , far figures seen indeed accurate , explain discrepancy figure , figures international organizations \? figures seen place hit ratio close 70 , still far higher 35 figure say bomb missed plane took , bomb never hit target , regardless whether bomb dropped \? methods used time lie statistics stories hundreds thousands iraqi civilian dead plain bunk prove source says date , civilian death count \( er , excuse , mean collateral damage \) 200 , 000 never seen source claiming figure please post source reliability judged mccullou whipple cs wisc edu never program drink beer 2 time n't work
com \( paul durbin \) subject david ! god ! nntp posting host hq com organization corp lines 8 one morning shows \( think today show \) , david koresh 's lawyer interviewed interview flipped letters david koresh wrote one letters written hebrew \( near bottom page \) koresh anyone else see \? could mean \( david \) writing \?
kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) subject day organization case western reserve university lines 28 distribution world nntp posting host b64635 student cwru edu article dr pepper east sun com geoff east sun com \( geoff arnold sun bos r h coast near top \) writes raymond quote big sig , deserves posting imho big sig \? way ! keith home sig files ryan \) private note jennifer fakult post may contain one following sarcasm , cycnicism , irony , humor please aware possibility allow confused thrown loop doubt , assume owners account take responsiblity confusion may result inability recognize read risk , jennifer
acooper mac cc macalstr edu \( turin turambar , department utter misery \) subject christian morality organization macalester college lines 37 article 1993apr21 cs nott ac uk , kax cs nott ac uk \( kevin anthoney \) writes article 4949 eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com writes fact god could cause believe anything wants think minute would rather someone love made love , wanted love 's difference believing existence entity , loving entity god could show directly exists , 'd still free choice whether love n't \? kevin anthoney kax cs nott ac uk n't believe anything read sig files kevin makes good point , theists miss often , belief diety necessarily coupled agreement love diety , really yet another bit convincing beyond belief guess standard goes something like well , believe god , know god love , choose love widely accepted asserted 'd laughable best regards , adam adam john cooper verily , often laughed weaklings \( 612 \) 696 7521 thought good simply acooper macalstr edu claws understand one another \? fear beyond comprehension gandalf
acooper mac cc macalstr edu \( turin turambar , department utter misery \) subject christian morality organization macalester college lines 107 article eastman uucp , dps nasa kodak com \( dan schaertel , , , \) writes article ousrvr oulu fi , kempmp phoenix oulu fi \( petri pihko \) writes dan schaertel , , , \( dps nasa kodak com \) wrote love god much loves wants seduce , 'll know would probably consider rape probably rape simple logic arguments folly read bible see jesus made fools tried trick logic ability reason spec creation yet think ultimate rely simply reason never know argument type 'll know try yet many atheists sincerely tried , believed many years , eventually honest enough admit lived virtual reality obviously many christians tried believe \? nothing may work , others n't give insight overall god overall truth religion would seem dependent solely individual , well individually created since christians failed show us way life wy better , see attempt try necessary , even particularly attractive learn must accept n't know mean \? learn must accept n't know something , right learn must accept something n't know , \? way prefer learn unwise merely swallow everything read suppose write book telling great invisible pink unicorn \( tm \) helped daily problems , would accept , since ca n't know whether true \? one asks swallow everything , fact jesus warns let ask question beleive learn history class , matter anything school mean 's people told n't want swallow others say right \? well , know sure told truth , least bit evidence pointing fact , say , military conflict vietnam 25 years ago , supernatural diety wants us live certain way fact jesus warned means nothing warn big deal life , death , resurection christ documented historical fact true first two choices \( life death \) documented , last one total unless one uses bible , totally circular perhaps better use imagination , one 's ignorance someone else address i'm sure , refer plenty documentation much anything else learn choose believe \? could argue george washington myth never lived n't proof except told however major events life jesus christ hundreds years neat trick uh \? \? nothing disgusting christian attempts manipulate interpret old testament filled signs coming christ every little reference stick bit wood interpreted cross miscarriage philology way get sceptical heart say given sincere effort attitude seem must trust , go church participate 's activities ever willing die believed \? well , since skeptical hearts \( thank goodness , \) way get us difference christians glorify exactly tend despise trust belief faith without knowledge lucky one day happen thinking god time go , may associate sign god \( feel right , trust without knowing \) maybe seem anything conclusively arrived , rather seems sudden affliction believe many us willing die believed , many us question , attitude reflective correct healthy morality would seem thing could reflect fanaticism , example , case expression simple selfishness adam adam john cooper verily , often laughed weaklings \( 612 \) 696 7521 thought good simply acooper macalstr edu claws understand one another \? fear beyond comprehension gandalf
acooper mac cc macalstr edu \( turin turambar , department utter misery \) subject soc religion christian organization macalester college lines 41 found little gem , n't know anyone interest comments hi everyone , i'm commited christian battling problem know romans talks saved faith deeds , yet hebrews james say faith without deeds useless , saying' fools , still think believing enough \? ' someone fully believing life totally lead god , according romans person still saved faith bit says god someone cold \( e n't know condemned \) lukewarm christian someone knows believes god n't make attempt live bible opinion saved faith alone \( \) taught romans , square mind teachings james conjunction lukewarm christian 'spat out' anyone help , really bothers christ , adam adam john cooper verily , often laughed weaklings \( 612 \) 696 7521 thought good simply acooper macalstr edu claws understand one another \? fear beyond comprehension gandalf
acooper mac cc macalstr edu \( turin turambar , department utter misery \) subject college atheists organization macalester college lines 60 article 1993apr22 nuscc nus sg , cmtan iss nus sg \( tan chade meng dan \) writes nm0w andrew cmu edu \( nanci ann miller \) writes nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \( david nye \) writes read article poll done students ivy league schools reported third students atheists lot higher among general population wonder reasons discrepancy \? intelligent \? younger \? wave future \? figure general population \? last heard , 25 americans believe reincarnation somebody quote stat \? n't stat , , unfortunately , read generally smoking belief supernatural \( garbage \) rise would guess probably something ease ideas thoughts communicated college campus , world theists forced contend listen atheists theists religions bound change beliefs four years nowhere run \) funny country , works way round univ life v v people \( remember , 're asian population \) like prey people nowhere run interesting thing principle sort though philosophical ideas generally tried tested mostly college years whether idea christian atheist n't always matter 'd like say 's atheists intelligent \) unenlightened one tan chade meng wise man tells wife understands singapore cmtan iss nus sg fool tries prove regards , adam adam john cooper verily , often laughed weaklings \( 612 \) 696 7521 thought good simply acooper macalstr edu claws understand one another \? fear beyond comprehension gandalf
alan olsen p17 f40 n105 z1 fidonet org \( alan olsen \) subject thoughts christian books lines 32 dn think took , lunatic , real thing' dn last time time \? anyway , let dn somebody else turn ca n't debate dn straight face perhaps something completely dn different could ridicule gather dn posts last two times email dn aside , believe somebody actually dn got book published \? must vanity dn press would recomend anyone visit local christian bookstore become aware stuff sell quite interesting stuff far \( level chick \) common bookstore , least one section hate , pagans , catholics , mormons , rock musicians , anyone else fanatical \( hate love god \( tm \) ! \) even interesting watching people frequent places scary people hear voices god telling whatever want hear \( christians , would locked away maybe federal money reduced mental institutions reagan administration get religious leaders \) would christianity jesus got eight fifteen years , time good behavior \? new york state senator james h donovan capitol punishment alan beware ! touch wires instant death ! anyone found prosecuted !
logica co uk subject means human \? \( \) distribution world lines 40 article 1993apr16 cs ucla edu , brad pierce pierce cs ucla edu writes bedrock spiritual belief resonant , yet theology full reason even , believe , based false premises etc etc ill defined , terms , e g , spirit , transcendental , mind , self , consciousness , ultimate reality , soul , elan vital , etc meaning sadly , adherents spiritual movements seldom satisfied hold meaning consciousness mind self \? ! harmless seem drawn belief \? spiritual transcendental material empirical , e , pipe dreams , illusion facts , science reason since , instance , \( non \) psychology pipe dream \? surely major purpose science psychology understand workings mind creatures , feelings , thoughts , perceptions , processes phenomena manifestations mundane , e , matter , energy , space time believe otherwise , albeit god , atheists manifestations mundane sounds rather transcendental fact matter , energy , space time well measured mysterious concepts atheist really believe cast following true faith \? ! richard wilson logica industry ltd
ukc ac uk \( tony curtis \) subject christian morality organization computing laboratory , ukc lines 41 nntp posting host pine ukc ac uk acooper mac cc macalstr edu \( turin turambar , department utter misery \) said dan schaertel 's article followed quoting right much anything else learn choose believe \? could argue george washington myth never lived n't proof except told however major events life jesus christ hundreds years neat trick uh \? \? nothing disgusting christian attempts manipulate interpret old testament filled signs coming christ every little reference stick bit wood interpreted cross miscarriage philology think may also worthwhile pointing take seriously jesus full grasp contemporary 42 jesus saith unto , ye never read scriptures 29 jesus answered said unto , ye err , knowing 29 scriptures , power god following , would wonderful position fulfil prophesies , nt says much mat26 54 shall scriptures fulfilled , mat26 54 thus must \? mat26 56 done , scriptures mat26 56 prophets might fulfilled disciples mat26 56 forsook , fled books comprising referred accessible probably would different matter tony
triton unm edu \( \) subject another request darwin fish organization university new mexico , albuquerque lines 11 nntp posting host triton unm edu hello gang , notes recently asking obtain darwin fish question seen answer net anyone contact please post net email thanks , john triton unm edu
carina unm edu \( jenny \) subject another request darwin fish organization cursed female lines 11 nntp posting host carina unm edu darwin fish bought join \( tm \) send 6 receive official evolving fish wherever want spread good news ! , sunset blvd , ste 1525 , l , ca greatest theory ever told ! jenny forty years nursing homes filled demented hackers , studying blank laptop screens nicely placed keep knees warm k mitchum
kempmp phoenix oulu fi \( petri pihko \) subject faq sheet organization university oulu , finland x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 25 mike mcangus \( mam mouse cmhnet org \) wrote way , news announce newusers article \( ca n't remember one \) recommends reading newsgroup 1 month posting makes sense get idea players current discussions one followed advice \? , spent month reading , , mainly know much way atheists think even printed faqs discussed friend started posting alt atheism deals religious issues \( appropriately , lack religious beliefs \) , nature controversial makes sense read discussed make sure repeating something others said better petri ' '' petri pihko kem pmp mathematics truth ! ' ' ' ' ' pihatie 15 c finou oulu fi physics rule ' ' ' sf 90650 oulu kempmp game ' finland phoenix oulu fi chemistry game
aaron minster york ac uk subject gulf war \( death penalty political atheists \? \) distribution world organization department computer science , university york , england lines 36 mark mccullough \( mccullou cs wisc edu \) wrote details us built chemical plant al near baghdad however , plant 's intended use aid iraqi infrastructure example selling weapon may sound nitpicking , going refuse sell valuable parts build infrastructure dual use technology \? contending case \( case sale uk companies \) knew full well used production chemical weapons even officially stated purpose personally n't think letting iran conquer iraq would good thing matter , neither \( reasons state \) hypocrisy claims us help iraq make angry , plus fact usa seems believe right interfere sees fit \( e interest \) rather duty intervene required demonstrated failure us anything east timor \( region becoming \) usa might done something approaching right thing , given reservations number , wholly wrong reasons hand creating situation way would affect us later military action iraq suggest would would ridiculous assert otherwise simply indicating usa previously aided iraq intel manufacturing techniques , something nature \? , apparently data \( satellites although doubt iraq would given raw data \) concerning troop concentrations aaron turner aaron minster york ac uk
aaron minster york ac uk subject death penalty gulf war \( long \) distribution world organization department computer science , university york , england lines 22 shamim zvonko mohamed \( sham cs arizona edu \) wrote bullshit ! ! ! gulf massacre , 7 ordnance used smart rest 's 93 regular , dumb ol' iron bombs stuff forgotten pentagon definition successful patriot launch missile cleared launching tube damage \? successful interception scud defined patriot scud passed area sky \? 7 smart stuff , 35 hit try follow means 65 smart arsenal missed used full figures including tons bombs dropped number cluster munitions used heard 90 laser guided weapons hit , unprecedented rate success 25 iron weapons hit , unprecedented following rough estimate , means 80 , 000 tons bombs dropped us aircraft around 56 , 000 tons missed i'm sure proportion dropped baghdad rather troop concentrations iraq kuwait much dropped cluster munitions , rounds many artillery rounds napalm fuel air explosives also used \( remember told weapons mass destruction naughty indeed \? \)
aaron minster york ac uk subject death penalty gulf war \( long \) distribution world organization department computer science , university york , england lines 17 mark mccullough \( mccullou snake2 cs wisc edu \) wrote figure , far figures seen indeed accurate , explain discrepancy figure , figures international organizations \? figures seen place hit ratio close 70 , still far higher 35 figure say bomb missed plane took , bomb never hit target , regardless whether bomb dropped \? methods used time lie statistics answering last sentence , claimed success rate 80 without initially explaining , pressed , meant 80 aircraft came back dropped bombs somewhere , whether hit intended target , indeed anything al aaron turner
aaron minster york ac uk subject death penalty gulf war \( long \) distribution world organization department computer science , university york , england lines 18 mark mccullough \( mccullou snake2 cs wisc edu \) wrote prove source says date , civilian death count \( er , excuse , mean collateral damage \) 200 , 000 never seen source claiming figure please post source reliability judged figure would simply deaths bombing , also death later disease \( sewer system baghdad deliberately targeted \) starvation believe \( get copy latest research june july \) figure proposed census bureau report matter report suppressed cb attempted sack author report , failed due procedural author permanent leave aaron turner
aaron minster york ac uk subject gulf war selling arms distribution world organization department computer science , university york , england lines 14 mark mccullough \( mccullou cs wisc edu \) wrote heard arms sale saudi arabia , grave mistake sell saudi arabia weapons \? claiming n't sell weapons countries \? straightforward answer please saudi arabia oppressive regime recently interfering newly yemen , including border entirely possible soon invade yemen popular west managed put aside political differences thus west effectively lost one half \( north \? \) client state aaron turner
cfaehl vesta unm edu \( chris faehl \) subject free moral agency organization university new mexico , albuquerque lines 76 distribution na nntp posting host vesta unm edu keywords another thread destined kill file article darkside osrhe uoknor edu , bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) writes deleted stuff andrew wrt atheist myth bill andrew , myth refer convoluted counterfeit athiests created make religion appear absurd counterfeit atheists hmmmm , 're cheap knock offs true atheists religion demonstrates absurd constantly personally , someone asks , i'm happy point rather approach religion \( including \) rational manner debating claims stated , atheists concoct outrageous parodies hold religious accountable beliefs n't accurately term like , reasonable atheist man , pill wrt atheists \? 're going make contentious statements , back ! least , read news time time , 've beliefs various religous doctrines hold try debating reasonably someone makes statement like , accurately term like , reasonable atheist take look responses 've given tammy seem pretty reasonable , nay , even polite accusations myths 's good example said read post , said , , means referring christian doctrine \( understand \) , speaking 'll know purpose posting present basic overview doctrines since seemed germane saw reference according original article excellent job spewing dogma , well , implication pretty clear \( wrong , case \) jeez , misunderstanding let go statements wrap thing 3 \) read post care read faq , would n't conversation written post care faq , would n't discussion gems evidence deleted yes , human reason always come back existence god , 're discussion \? jeez , point \? discussion instances human reason therefore , implication false well interesting , truth determined politically correct content granted 's extremely wasp male , anything european , thought kind dialogue , purpose , get truth things remember oxymoron , atheist , understand lame get said anything things \? read faq carefully , please report findings says purpose find things stop misguided image atheists upon us 's really pissing bill
mathew mathew mantis co uk subject discordian subgenius books , addresses etc distribution world organization mantis consultants , cambridge uk lines 204 requested , addresses sources bizarre religious satire commentary plus book loompanics unlimited po box 1197 port townsend , wa usa publishers one infamous mail order book catalogue world , , libertarianism , , money making \( legal illegal \) , privacy security , self defense , kinds stuff keeps christians awake nights church subgenius po box dallas , tx usa original end times church post human mutants high temple , one board x ist saucers 1998 escape space god 1 's stark fist removal j r bob dobbs , god sales , waiting take money ordain magazines , sick audio cassettes , assorted offensive material periodic lists addresses pink religious cults contact points world network expect slow response mail conspiracies well organized eventually get pay give slack counter productions po box 556 london se5 uk uk source obscure books wide ranging selection , , subgenius , , robert anton wilson , horror , cyberpunk , , political social commentary , wilhelm reich , tech , obscure rock music , sf , send sae \( maybe bribe , need money \) ask catalogue tell mathew sent 've ordered folks three four times , 're fast efficient expect sort operation forbidden planet various sites uk particular , along london 's new oxford street , road court road tube station mass market subgenius , robert anton wilson , loompanics , course huge quantities sf terribly good selection , 're high street reviewette greatest hits isbn 1 031 x \( loompanics \) selection articles picked books catalogue subjects include christian right wing christians encouraged cold war satanic child abuse myths religion censorship plus lots anarchist libertarian stuff , , computers privacy , guaranteed contain least one article 'll offend like , example , interview bradley r smith , holocaust revisionist good sampling stuff coffee table book \( course , whether want leave sort stuff lying around coffee table another matter \) quote fundamentalists leap rage joy worst fantasies vindicated , therefore \( like think \) , entire theology socio political agenda meanwhile , teen age social misfits murder enemies , classmates , families , friends , even complete strangers , read one anton lavey 's cooks listened one many ac dc records born agains ready burn , books time reviewette book subgenius , j r dobbs subgenius foundation isbn 0 671 6 \( simon schuster \) described sick masterpiece still laugh fact nothing funny anymore official bible subgenius church , containing sacred teachings j r bob dobbs instant answers everything causes catalytic brain cell loss seconds secret total slack relax safety delusions pull wool eyes nuclear doom things laugh quote known answer questions concerning universal truths screams suggestive silence peeing pants leg famous sermon cosmic simplicity bob standing stage hands pockets , smoking , looking around saying nothing heated arguments still rage among monks , often erupting fatal , master consulted divine period grace reviewette high weirdness mail , rev ivan isbn 0 671 x \( simon schuster \) encyclopedia wierd organizations contact mail space , christian vs christian , ufo , new age , creationists , flat earthers , white churches , plus \( yawn \) , sceptical enquirer stuff like list addresses , though , kook group ruthlessly mocked ridiculed sarcastic glee like alt atheism 's flame wars , book made laugh stomach revised edition due time next year two sample entry entertaining demons southwest radio church po box oklahoma city , ok watchman wall another , fundamentalist outfit booklet entertaining demons exposes star wars e dungeons dragons saturday morning cartoon satanic connection horrifying detail left , though ! especially liked bit wonder woman 's antichrist origins keep mind send anything people , 'll mailing list life reviewette abolition work , bob black isbn 0 41 5 \( loompanics \) selection bob black 's painfully witty intelligent anarchist tracts collected book form good 'd \( \) probably thought provoking political book 's fun read quote babble 'the wages serves cover 'the sin want rights , rites sex , sects eros belong surely nazarene revenge remember , pain god 's way hurting reviewette , younger isbn 1 040 9 \( loompanics \) infamous discordian bible , reprinted entirety yes , could ftp online copy , one pictures explains absolutely everything , including law , start discordian cabal , instructions preaching christians quote discordian required early illumination go alone hot dog friday popular day catholic christendom \( meat friday \) , judaism \( meat pork \) , peoples \( meat beef \) , buddhists \( meat animal \) , \( hot dog \) reviewette natural law , n't put rubber willy , robert anton wilson isbn 0 61 x \( loompanics \) author rails natural law , natural morality , objective reality , myths witty thought provoking work someone actually seems know argument hole ground quote since theological propositions scientifically meaningless , us pragmatic disposition simply wo n't buy dubious merchandise maybe remotely might something , might something talking dogs stocks arabian mines w c fields sold , suspect recognize con game operation least , want hear dog talk see ore buy deals books mentioned available counter productions uk , directly subgenius foundation loompanics unlimited mathew \( \) mean anyway \? dreamed laid toaster daddy caught act take \?
kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) subject free moral agency organization case western reserve university lines 21 distribution na nntp posting host b64635 student cwru edu keywords another thread destined kill file article lynx unm edu cfaehl vesta unm edu \( chris faehl \) writes myth refer convoluted counterfeit athiests created make religion appear absurd counterfeit atheists hmmmm , 're cheap knock offs true atheists must theists disguise event , n't need create religious parodies look actual religions absurd thoughts 0m jack handey 0m go , parachute n't open , friends watching fall , think funny gag would pretend swimming 0m
unix amherst edu \( mta \) subject atheism survey nntp posting host amhux3 amherst edu organization amherst college x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl7 lines 100 research atheism , part involves field research net following survey directed towards readers group , intended get data basis atheistic belief would seriously appreciate every one would fill mail back unix amherst edu first , 've tried structure questions answered variety ways , varying amounts detail 's possible give succinct answers everything , 's enough keep typing hours , i'm sure much detail want give \( mean \) great , 's also important broad base individuals possible , even minimal responses far better nothing 's short survey answer questions without secondly , hope questions n't come obnoxious know phrases like would convince existence god imply seminary student intent proving ignorant godless fact , i'm sure existence higher power , use god question rather ideology 's easier repeating deity higher power every time also , tend use lot anthropological buzzwords like belief system although know might contend n't beliefs , skeptical towards everything understand know mean think buzzwords abbreviations rather phrases required get precise idea across lastly , thanks ! please fill much , much detail , send research thank would place beliefs , spectrum theism agnosticism weak atheism strong atheism \? feel free elaborate specific beliefs , , religious tradition raised \? ever believe existence god \? \( several following questions presume answer yes 've always atheist , least never theist , may modify question answer somewhat \) serious family 's involvement \? start doubt tenets raised believe \? final break beliefs , , occur \? realize often ongoing process event per se whatever case , describe whatever detail wish contact atheists \( \) conversion atheism \? \( certainly involvement alt atheism counts net discussions affected beliefs \? \) extent think atheists influenced beliefs \? come beliefs discussion , independent means , combination two means \? convinced beliefs acquired wholly rational means \( proofs non existence god , etc \) , perhaps , least part , means \( alienation mainstream religion , etc \) \? extent feel understand universe beliefs \? phenomena universe human existence \( anything physical phenomena problem existence evil human affairs \) feel adequately dealt beliefs , lacking explanatory method \? would take question , change , beliefs \? would convince existence god , would convince god 's existence , forth \? dynamic beliefs constantly changing stayed less time \? involved career education science \? extent think science influenced beliefs \? \( asimov claimed science new secular religion , scientists , real sense , new priesthood see pursuit science quasi religious base , even religious element \? \) survey intended get data broad range individuals , also help narrow field small group people whose ideas histories could useful would willing , basis survey , write find beliefs \? , fine filling survey alone great thanks feel free contact questions i'm data , anything say addition 've asked mark abbott unix amherst ed
simon dcs warwick ac uk \( simon clippingdale \) subject americans evolution , free 's razor inside nntp posting host nin organization department computer science , warwick university , england lines 386 sorry delay responding , due conference paper deadline panic article senator bedfellow mit edu bobs thnext mit edu \( robert singleton \) writes article 1993apr18 dcs warwick ac uk simon dcs warwick ac uk \( simon clippingdale \) writes alarming amounts agreement deleted \) made statement razor experiences physics thanks info baysian statistics interesting n't know follow proof , one questions two hypotheses h hg latter complicated , definition means p \( h \) p \( hg \) \( complicated \) n't fact p \( h \) p \( hg \) comes 's way around 's p \( h \) p \( hg \) p \( \) g' complement g axiom , p \( anything \) 0 , p \( \) 0 , p \( h \) p \( hg \) sense , hg necessarily complicated h h g , may splitting hairs , i'm trying say irrespective subjective impressions complicated something , p \( h \) p \( hg \) holds , equality p \( \) 0 point , 's simple matter show p \( x h \) p \( x hg \) p \( h x \) p \( hg x \) , thus h hg say h consistent data hg say p \( x h \) p \( x hg \) elaborate well , p \( x \) p \( x b \) means x likely observed operative b operative implies observing x provide useful information might allow us discriminate respective possibilities b operative difference reduces difference \( unknown \) prior probabilities p \( \) p \( b \) p \( x \) p \( x b \) p \( x \) k p \( \) , p \( b x \) k p \( b \) k p \( x \) p \( x \) p \( x b \) p \( x \) b equally consistent data observing x n't give pointers b operative particular case h b hg , however , know prior probabilities ordered p \( h \) p \( hg \) , although n't know actual values , 's allows us deploy razor throw hg also , real world n't clear cut dry seems ca n't always determine whether equality p \( x h \) p \( x hg \) true 's certainly true , particular point whether `divine component' actually underlies prevalence religion addition memetic transmission component , even religious implicitly acknowledge operative talk seems , 've said , observed variance religious belief well accounted memetic transmission model , rather less well one proposes `divine component' addition , since would expect latter wide variance even mutual exclusion among beliefs thus personal feeling p \( x hg \) n't even equal p \( x h \) case , smaller \( h memetic transmission , g `divine component' , x variance among beliefs \) happily acknowledge subjective impression btw , beef baysian argument mathematical one checked work n't find error seem careful probably n't math mistake think mistake philosophical make sure understand , please rephrase non technical terms \? think reasonable request always try look ways explaining physics non physicist i'm baysian \( type \) , would helpful i'm either , idea theism atheism compatible \( read \) observations date however , theism \( type concerned \) also suggests , instance , prayer may answered , people may miraculously healed \( principle amenable statistical verification \) god may generally intervene measurable ways means regions space possible observations , loosely termed appearances god , probability theistic hypothesis zero atheistic since much probability available hypothesis scatter around observation space , probability theism making appearances god possible must come somewhere else \( e possible observations \) else equal , means observation n't appearance god must slightly higher probability atheism theism stuff implies observations must cause running estimate probability atheistic hypothesis increase , corresponding decrease running estimate probability theistic hypothesis sorry 's still bit , 's rather difficult put way , since depend intimately properties conditional probability densities , particularly total area always unity analogy may \( may \) helpful say hypothesis coin fair , b coin unfair \( two headed \) \( 've used b avoid confusion h heads tails \) p \( h \) 0 5 total 1 p \( \) 0 5 p \( h b \) 1 total 1 p \( b \) 0 observations string heads , tails compatible fair coin \( \) two headed coin \( b \) however , probability expended making possible appearance tails \( even though n't actually appear \) must come somewhere else , since total must unity , comes case probability appearance heads say running estimates time n 1 e n 1 \( \) e n 1 \( b \) observation x n time n another head , x n h estimates modified according p \( h \) e n \( \) e n 1 \( \) e n 1 \( \) p \( h \) p \( h b \) e n \( b \) e n 1 \( b \) e n 1 \( b \) 2m p \( h \) n't know p \( h \) , actual prior probability head , multiplier e \( \) half e \( b \) true every time coin tossed head observed thus whatever initial values estimates , n heads , n e n \( \) e 0 \( \) n e n \( b \) \( 2m \) e 0 \( b \) , since e k \( \) e k \( b \) 1 time k , show 0 5 1 thus 1 2m 2 hence estimate fair coin hypothesis must decrease trial two headed coin hypothesis b must increase , even though hypotheses compatible string heads loose analogy unfair coin atheism , fair coin theism , observations consistent tail , would falsify unfair coin , analogous appearance god , would falsify atheism claiming analogy extends numerical values various probabilities , principle constant observation evidence gods , evidence possible respective theisms , constantly increases estimated probability n't exist , 's important draw distinction theism could supported supported evidence theism ca n't given theism evidence principle possible , n't make sense say lack evidence supports contrary view quite , type theism might call g hg , terms 's razor discussion , 'd bin grounds depends upon conception god 's conception like zeus , happened come earth play quite frequently , agree lack evidence conception god evidence exist conception god one make falsifiable predictions \( see falsifiable predictions \) , disagree lack evidence support disbelief hypotheses n't falsifiable , indeed , theism n't falsifiable used phrase given specific 'x' theism make prediction p \( x ht \) 0 's used word theism makes predictions specific event say believe god happens , believe god given 'x' never , priori , say p \( x ht \) 0 even say set 'x' 'x' n't like use probability also way assigning probabilities hold science criteria someone cannot tell measure , even principle , p \( x h \) , probability applicable hypothesis h case h ht \( theistic \) ha \( atheistic \) example , p \( x ha \) p \( x ha \) p \( ha \) p \( ha \) \? ! \? measure \? n't n't need , analogy , know prior probabilities deduce updating multiplier fair coin hypothesis less unity , corresponding multiplier two headed coin hypothesis greater unity n't need know initial values running estimates either 's clear large number observations , p \( fair coin \) approaches zero p \( two headed coin \) approaches unity need know whether p \( x ha \) larger p \( x ht \) observed x , follows assumptions certain events rendered possible \( necessary \) ht possible ha , else equal baysian statistics relies upon series observations hypothesis n't amenable observation \? even statements amenable observation , observations relevant sequence observations must chosen care i'm curious know types observations x 1 , x 2 , mind concerning theism atheism observations like really n't matter , affect reasoning , provided possible observations would count appearances god examples might demonstration efficacy prayer , veracity revelation statement p \( x h \) general x still counts prediction h theism question , ht , says prayer may answered , miracles may happen \( see interpretation , quoted , means \) , prediction , p \( x ht \) 0 x 's distinguishes atheist hypothesis ha , predicts stuff happen , p \( x ha \) 0 x theism make claim p \( x ht \) 0 x say theism n't maybe quick say common language said existence god mean notion deity described bible christians interact universe claimed agents agreed however , must careful believe i'm making claims maybe changed important shift emphasis way , since belief , cannot conclude p \( x ht \) 0 x ok , 'll downgrade interact may interact , would actually better since interact implies agree misplaced n't think theism makes predictions maybe i'm understanding mean prediction could explain mean word \? 'll explain , bear mind n't central require theism make prediction appearances god never happen , atheism \( somebody points quantum mechanics n't make prediction either , difference qm atheism form partition \) predictions include statements prayer \( implying stats , find prayer \) , prayer , verily say unto , generation shall pass , till things fulfilled n't think problems misunderstanding persistent observation stuff happening , consistent ht though may , consistent ha , explained stats post even ht \( god exists \) unfalsifiable , 's problem argument , let number observations go infinity falsify btw , consider argument requires infinite number observations valid rather part argument valid , existing humans , never make infinite number conclusion n't accept valid 's fine n't claim theism false , merely finite number observations available far suggest , continue observe , suggestion looks better better stuff deleted stats post , assumed theism indeed unfalsifiable finite number observations 's relevant quote important assumption observations compatible theist hypothesis atheist hypothesis , thus would falsify atheism called god s' , need taken literally observation requires explanation one gods exist count observations assumed compatible hypotheses leaves theism unfalsifiable , atheism falsifiable single observation god s' problem something falsifiable must make prediction 'x' seen 'x' seen hypothesis falsified , atheism word something theism theism belief atheism disbelief certain certainly falsifiable certain theisms \( e g theism asserts world 6 , 000 years old god falsified \) however , atheism unfalsifiable theism also unfalsifiable could wrong statment think appearance god sufficient falsify atheism , whereas general corresponding theism unfalsifiable 'll think , general question x unfalsifiable \( x \) also unfalsifiable \? way counterexample , let x coin fair , accurately \( \( x \) makes sense \) two sides coin different unfalsifiable tossing coin even string heads consistent fair coin , go infinite number falsify x limit converse falsifiable , falsified least one head least one tail appeared partly 's wrong baysian argument requires observations x 1 x n made simply observations truth value relation statement god exists , use symmetry argument , understand someone would say since statement 'god makes predictions choose believe none less would founded type faith n't like word faith insert belief falsifiable evidence instead 'll assume meant highlight agreed definition exists , statement makes predictions said , although n't falsifiable finite number observations actually , mean 'god makes predictions oops sorry mea culpa truth statment actually depends upon god refering think conceptions god true i'm open could wrong give examples predictions statment god exist one think true , would healing principle never determined one way cases people seem recover healed without help doctor known reason situations fact happen consistent theistic hypothesis , way support hypothesis agree inconsistent atheistic hypothesis ca n't think one prediction 'god n't type might missing something rapture happen october 28 1992 said rapture would falsified atheism satisfaction happened , although failure happen , course , falsify theisms specifically predicted phenomenon requires existence one gods explanation ever observed sums whole thing bob singleton bobs thnext mit edu cheers simon simon clippingdale simon dcs warwick ac uk department computer science tel \( 44 \) 203 523296 university warwick fax \( 44 \) 203 525714 coventry cv4 7al , u k
madhaus netcom com \( maddi hausmann \) subject thoughts organization society putting things top things lines 23 healta saturn wwc edu \( tammy r healy \) writes tammy see , maddi , trimmed ! healy well , 're going practice , 're getting hang soon 're going give new nickname try size tammy lucky seven healy tammy pass healy tammy r us healy tammy learning healy maddi never useful post hausmann maddi hausmann madhaus netcom com centigram communications corp san jose california 408 428 3553 kids , please n't try home remember , post professionally
decay cbnewsj cb att com \( dean kaflowitz \) subject free moral agency organization distribution na keywords another thread destined kill file lines 14 article kmr4 po cwru edu , kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) writes thoughts 0m jack handey 0m go , parachute n't open , friends watching fall , think funny gag would pretend swimming 0m fall opens , gravity 's good idea 's law dean kaflowitz
bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) subject religion cause \( islamic authority women \) nntp posting host okcforum osrhe edu organization okcforum unix users group x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 19 scott sauyet \( ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu \) wrote works horrors history claim christianity little crusades inquisition deny awesome power comes faith absolute seems twisting reasonable statement religion never solitary cause evil unreasonable statement religion evil impacts history absurd scott , paragraph would willingly amend earlier statements , since point \( \) well made generally accurate last part though slips hyperbole since 've discussed objections generalizations , really n't feel need n't seen posts , ask maddi , saves everything write bill
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject yet rushdie islamic law organization sgi lines 27 distribution world nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article bu edu , jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) writes article 6e1 fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes saying islamic bank something bcci would care explain said hope islamic bank something bcci , called childish propagandist yes , sure , obvious reason anyone would make jump bcci islamic bank associating islamic banking muslim ownership case said hoped bcci islamic bank reason one would generalize given islamic bank islamic banks stereotype one x bad , therefore x 's bad case said hoped bcci islamic bank next think know bosnia tap case said hoped bcci islamic bank jon
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject free moral agency organization sgi lines 19 distribution world nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de , i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) writes article fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes \( deletion \) , mr conner bobby mozumder myth , performing artist , real moslem crackpot , \? know everything read minds n't tell us \? side note n't telling one cannot say sure bobby firm believer \? say religious beliefs \? think 's insightful comment especially time people like bill projector conner complaining posting parodies jon
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject societally acceptable behavior organization sgi lines 30 distribution world nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article news cso uiuc edu , cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) writes fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes article c5qgm3 dl8 news cso uiuc edu , cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) writes n't seem right want kill , decide \? sounds though confused want think morally right jon mean \? would idea still apply said think ok kill decided \? mean said want automatically translate think right , translate way reply think ok kill decided means want translate think right n't translate way jon
frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) subject societal basis morality organization siemens nixdorf ag lines 49 nntp posting host d012s658 ap mchp sni de article 1993apr20 cnsvax uwec edu nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \( david nye \) writes asked look , way back anyway \) reply cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) morals come societally accepted , follow \? right expect others follow notion societally mandated morality \? pardon extremism , could n't murder brother say exercising rights saw , felt good , n't want anyone forcing morality , n't follow morality \? believe morality subjective person entitled moral attitudes mine priori correct someone elses mean however must judge another basis rather moral standards entitled believe moral sense tells , rest society entitled pass laws spelling punishments behavior offensive majority \? last statement \? authority \? criminals see behavior moral may realize immoral care thus following moral system immoral someone lay claim alternative moral system , must sincere belief must internally consistent \? last statement things necessary \? believe , belief terrorism sincere frighteningly consistent sociopaths lack innate moral sense thus may incapable behaving morally someone like hitler may believed actions moral , may judge immoral standards holding morality subjective mean must excuse murderer trouble , would sound fine coming someone like hitler , \( mean comparison offence , david \) try substituting social minority choice , , logical difference someone like , vs someone like hitler zero sum frank o'dwyer 'i'm hatching that' odwyer sse ie hens , evelyn conlon
nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \( david nye \) subject faith dogma organization university wisconsin eau claire lines 28 reply tgk cs toronto edu \( todd kelley \) light happened waco , need get something chest faith dogma dangerous agreed philosopher cannot christian philosopher change mind , whereas christian cannot , due nature faith dogma present religion hard understand , quite professional scientists philosophers theists sure , religion many good qualities encourages benevolence also intolerance superstition i'm sure balance detrimental would n't nice everyone secular humanist \? sure would ! david nye \( nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \) midelfort clinic , eau claire wi patently absurd whoever wishes become philosopher must learn frightened absurdities bertrand russell
i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) subject yet rushdie islamic law organization technical university braunschweig , germany lines 32 article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) writes i'm position say , since know nothing situation , estimation , qualify head ass bob , never accused head ass ! takes quite time dealing someone accusing head ass accusing original poster \( benedikt , believe \) impaired insult , gregg resorts lies article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) writes could maybe flesh bit \? miss full 's content virtue atheism \? may difficulty seeing light head ass suggest making sure case posting 's original answer say head necessarily ass , would meaningless pointless benedikt
i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization technical university braunschweig , germany lines 35 article horus ap mchp sni de frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes \( deletion \) point morals , essence , personal opinions usually \( ideally \) well founded , motivated , nonetheless personal fact real large lot people agree moral question , sometimes even reason , make morals objective makes humans somewhat alike opinions moral question , good evolution social species real large lot \( nice phrase \) people agree football desk , i'm supposed see logical difference two \? perhaps explain difference , since seem see clearly \( rest deleted \) 's fallacy , first time pointed one , never given set morals people agree upon unlike football , conveniently ignore many would agree morality something analogy hold one expect sufficiently many people agree football , give evidence vanishing number disagrees set morals give , evidence , proof proof would evolve testing theory absolute morals competing theories one arguments reiterate never answer objections evidence preacher benedikt
i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) subject amusing atheists agnostics organization technical university braunschweig , germany lines 10 article lynx unm edu cfaehl vesta unm edu \( chris faehl \) writes correction hard atheism faith yes faith like weak atheism benedikt
i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) subject theism fanatism \( islamic genocide \) organization technical university braunschweig , germany lines 125 article 3r horus ap mchp sni de frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes theism strongly correlated irrational belief absolutes irrational belief absolutes strongly correlated fanatism \( deletion \) theism correlated fanaticism neither said fanatism caused theism theism leads fanatism point , theism increases chance becoming fanatic one could course argue would fanatics tend towards theism \( example \) , times history theism dominant ideology invalidate conclusion basic mechanism behind imo , influence stalin , matter , ayn rand , invalidates assumption theism factor considered bogus said theism factor fanatism point theism factor gullibility , blind obedience authority , lack scepticism , , reliable indicators really dangerous people sources fanaticism often none things cynical manipulators gullible , know precisely 's claim support please note especially field theism , leaders believe say , brands theism , precisely theists , tend fanaticism , grant tar theists brush bigotry , reasoned argument reads like warm censorship restriction religious freedom ever read animal farm \? 's straw man usually discussions one repeat read written every theism leads fanatism , fanatism caused theism point , correlation , comes innate features theism gullibility , way , one say going forbid religion another straw men interesting nothing better offer \( 2 \) define irrational belief e g , rational believe reason always useful \? irrational belief belief based upon reason latter discussed long time charley wingate one point beliefs violate reason often , another process lend rational analysis contain reliable information well , glaring paradox argument reason useful based reason would circular , argument based reason would irrational \? 's bogus self reference circular since evaluation usefulness possible within rational systems , allowed argument silly proving mathematical statements needs mathematics mathematics circular first part second statement contains information , n't say beliefs beliefs strong theism strong atheism , statement general true second part sentence patently false counterexample axiomatic datum lend rational analysis , assumed contain reliable information regardless process used obtain 've speaking religious systems contradictory definitions god axiomatic datum lends rational analysis , say often refuted fallacy look discussion axiom choice , one evaluate axioms larger systems usually derived exist derived , want way , one test consistency set axioms trying say \? compared evidence theists claims strength demands makes whole thing irrational antirational ca n't agree specific theism \? say theism necessarily antirational requires proof suspect using traditonal definition gods personal , supernatural entities objective effects world usually connected morals way world works affinity fanatism easily seen true believe nothing work hypothesis however , beliefs say work hypothesis n't understand argument \? person believes system b becuase sounds nice make b true , best work hypothesis however , content b true work hypothesis testing evaluating evidence therefore dismissed b \( already believed \) says wrong waste time possible depending contents b idolaters protestants killed , interesting effects answer question absolute set morals people agree like would agree football football benedikt
i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) subject islamic authority women organization technical university braunschweig , germany lines 51 article darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) writes ca n't recall anyone claiming god makes anyone act way , think 're attempting manufacture contradiction world creator god , moment creates world ca n't recall anyone even usual standard arguing argument based quite usual theistic assumptions , namely god perfect , god knowing god sets rules rules n't work whatever reason omniscience , god known advance \( deletion \) say something defined cannot exist , really asking much would existence depend grammar really say something poorly defined , insufficient decide anything \( confusion course \) question grammar , question modelling discussed wonderful time posting group defined point instance reality unless information definition allows find somehow however , contradictory attribute said essential , ie got attribute looking , conclude exist point better reasons phenomenon belief object belief may lead rat 's nest unnecessary complexity think know 're implying , 'd like see version better alternative 's quite like predict coins falling predicted happened 1 heads tails 2 tails tails 3 heads tails 4 heads tails take 2 dismiss rest unnecessary complexity evidence causes easy understand explanation humans believe gods read desmond morris benedikt
mathew mathew mantis co uk subject death penalty gulf war \( long \) organization mantis consultants , cambridge uk x newsreader rusnews v1 02 lines 158 jbrown batman bmd trw com writes n't regret fact sometimes military decisions made affect lives innocent people regret circumstances make decisions necessary , regret suffering caused decisions i'm afraid i'm going kill n't worry , though loving christian , guarantee regret fact kill , although wo n't regret actual killing n't intervened , allowing hussein keep kuwait , would appeasement right ever hear anyone advocate course action \? setting strawman \? i'm setting strawman want argue war , logical alternative allow hussein keep kuwait false dichotomy diplomatic alternatives , including sanctions , ineffective 's n't even attempted n't support hitler 's dreams conquest \? 's democratically voted policies got 43 elections 1933 , last chance german people got vote matter suffered along rest bother much \? want know bothers thousands innocent people maimed killed bombing end ww2 , far clear bombing necessary \? world full evil , circumstances perfect many innocents suffer due wrongful actions others regretable , 's way way \? set things way \? happening gulf war n't send bombers east timor \? n't sending bombers \? probably 're world ca n't police every country decides self destruct invade another , ones oil ones look like might make success communism strategic position get relief tibet , east timor , places n't see getting un forces east timor harder getting iraq tibetan people rounded , tortured , executed amnesty international recently reported torture still widespread china n't stopping \? fact , actively sucking trading freely \? tell could stop 'll support , one , agree present us policy sucking put agree deplorable fine write congressman president clinton china 's status favoured nation comes renewal june point us n't offering favourable trading terms despicable regime doubt anything happen clinton 's trade sanctions europe unbelievable comments rodney king case deleted media totally monolithic even though prevailing liberal bias , programs macneil lehrer news hour try give balanced fair reporting news even conservative sources know look \( hurrah rush ! \) idea many kill files ended \? , atheist , arguing killing innocent people , supposed christian , arguing 's ok kill innocent people long get guilty ones well hardly n't say 's good thing tm kill innocent people end unfortunately , n't live perfect world perfect solutions one going resist tyranny , innocent people sides going suffer die n't say ok unfortunate , sometimes necessary ends justify means , eh \? , criticised moral relativism past , arguing position judge morality allied actions end war certainly position moral relativist tired old misunderstanding moral relativism means objective standard morality n't mean ca n't judge people 's morals christ bike , many times tried hammer head \? 's christian love \? 's absolute morality \? oh , quick discard suits ivan would say , jesus would puke ! one day stand jesus give account every word action even discourse forum understand full ramifications , prepared n't believe make claim obviously , atheist n't think 'd get jesus , though long haired lunatic peace nik , \? btw , reason brought blanket bombing germany bemoaning iraqi civilian casualties deplorable yet blanket bombing instituted bombing n't accurate enough hit industrial military targets decisive way method time gulf war , precision bombing norm point , make big stink relatively civilian casualties resulted spite precision bombing , many civilians \( proportionately \) died blanket bombing ww2 \? right unfortunately , turned opinions matter entirely consistent condemned bombing dresden think 're bit glib explanation blanket bombing policy , make sound though aiming military targets could get destroying civilian buildings next door understand , case aimed deliberately civilian targets order cause massive damage inspire terror amongst german people civilians suffer less civilians suffered war history ! oh , come wars like falklands fresh people 's minds , sort propaganda n't going fool anyone stories hundreds thousands iraqi civilian dead plain bunk yes , bunk us lost 230 , 000 servicemen ww2 four years majority directly involved fighting ! yes \? millions casualties russians suffered \? 's hardly surprising us n't lose many men ww2 , given turned late mathew
mathew mathew mantis co uk subject gulf war selling arms organization mantis consultants , cambridge uk x newsreader rusnews v1 02 lines 32 jbrown batman bmd trw com writes mathew , agree , seems , crux whole position , n't \? us n't supported hussein sold arms fight iran \? agree agree ruthlessly hunting sell arms hussein , 's done deal invades kuwait sit back say , well , sold arms , suppose wants use bad kuwait , unfortunately , sitting back letting things way correct former mistake destroying hussein 's military potential right move agree statement , reagan bush made grave error judgment sell arms hussein 's still happening 's entire point last month , john major great victory personally secured sale arms saudi arabia month , sold jet fighters indonesian government 's busy killing east 's well say oops , made boo boo , better clean mistake , us uk keep making mistake often ca n't believe 's deliberate suspicion reinforced fact mistake extremely profitable one economy reliant arms sales 's really gulf war abhor much , u 's west 's selling arms hussein ultimately made war inevitable , right \? , thought terrible mathew
mathew mathew mantis co uk subject gulf war \( death penalty political atheists \? \) organization mantis consultants , cambridge uk x newsreader rusnews v1 02 lines 18 mccullou snake2 cs wisc edu \( mark mccullough \) writes looked back , asked questions various people got following information claimed pooh us sold iraq arms land mines already mentioned \? countries \( like kuwait \) information hard prove claiming us sold information \? prove information hard prove , almost certainly us sell information , fact classified , ca n't prove oh , neat dismiss everything say unless prove beyond shadow doubt something admit never prove satisfaction thanks , 'll stick circles mathew
mathew mathew mantis co uk subject gulf war peace niks organization mantis consultants , cambridge uk x newsreader rusnews v1 02 lines 21 jbrown batman bmd trw com writes problem peace niks consider us like bad unconscionable would argument problem peace nik held ideals stayed conflicts issues , especially dealing national defense , willing allow us legitimately hold different point view many times resort violence name peace yawn another right wing wasp imagining 's oppressed minority perhaps right would argument problem peace nik stayed conflicts issues \? bet would n't 'd love makes think sitting back , saying nothing defense issues , letting people like make decisions anything ideals \? mathew
mathew mathew mantis co uk subject strong weak atheism organization mantis consultants , cambridge uk x newsreader rusnews v1 02 lines 9 acooper mac cc macalstr edu \( turin turambar , department utter misery \) writes faq ever got modified define strong atheists assert nonexistence god , assert believe nonexistence god \? word , yes mathew
mathew mathew mantis co uk subject read rushdie 's satanic verses \? organization mantis consultants , cambridge uk x newsreader rusnews v1 02 lines 20 perry dsinc com \( jim perry \) writes anyway , since seem one following particular line discussion , wonder many rest readership read book \? thoughts \? bought copy satanic verses talk british government banning 's nothing interests book making illegal however , 's still sitting shelf perhaps 'll get round soon 've still got pile lem , go n't find nearly enough time read fact , far interesting things ever find time anyone ever manages bored beyond n't sleep , maybe could manage mathew atheism anti virus software mind
jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) subject yet rushdie islamic law organization boston university physics department lines 43 article 1993apr22 bnr ca \( rashid \) writes article bu edu , jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) wrote already made clear claim khomeini advocates views qur'an given arguments something checked anyone sufficiently interested khomeini , dead , really ca n't respond , another poster supports khomeini responded clearly sophistry quite clear atheists less susceptible modes n't mind saying best example obfuscation condemn without even basic facts straight want examples , go back look previous posts , manage get facts wrong fatwa khomeini 's supposed infallibility n't mind \? sounds proceeding sort obfuscation accused always statements understanding , made claim clear regard issue twelve imams khomeini 's supposed claim hearing seemingly knowledgable claim khomeini made claim regarding , withdrawn portion statement regarding claim however , received response regarding infallibility twelve imams nothing claims , always made clearly received clear response regarding twelve imams rather references unusual metaphysical natures opaque concepts often used people positions , particularly matters theology sorts concepts used christian churches perverting religion salaam laikum , gregg
jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) subject yet rushdie islamic law organization boston university physics department lines 39 article 1993apr21 bnr ca \( rashid \) writes article bu edu , jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) wrote think many reading group would also benefit knowing deviant view 've articulated \( may true view khomeini \) basic principles islam non muslim readers group see far simple basics islam views face contradiction basics islam , subtle issues seems sects exist islam explicitly proscribed qur'an discussing fine shall start new thread called , say , infallibility islam move discussion \? think illuminating let make first suggestion arabic words , especially technical ones , become use let us define , especially atheists , may terribly familiar please also note though initially refer khomeini heretic understood claim rejected since personal infallibility , withdraw basis statement retain reference regard khomeini 's advocacy thesis infallibility called twelve imams , clear conflict qur'an places twelve imams category behavior example higher muhammad , qur'an shows prophet clearly fallible , well \( appears , given theological statment regarding natures twelve imams \) placing different metaphysical category remainder humanity , possible exception muhammad , something sin association salam laikum , gregg
frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization siemens nixdorf ag lines 59 nntp posting host d012s658 ap mchp sni de article i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) writes article horus ap mchp sni de frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes \( deletion \) point morals , essence , personal opinions usually \( ideally \) well founded , motivated , nonetheless personal fact real large lot people agree moral question , sometimes even reason , make morals objective makes humans somewhat alike opinions moral question , good evolution social species real large lot \( nice phrase \) people agree football desk , i'm supposed see logical difference two \? perhaps explain difference , since seem see clearly \( rest deleted \) 's fallacy , first time pointed 's fallacy note supermajority disinterested people agree value \( 're ethics yet benedikt \) , difference people agreeing trivial observation \? one , never given set morals people agree upon unlike football , conveniently ignore many would agree morality something analogy hold , however , given example value people agree , explained people agree freedom valuable also stated value necessary condition objective ethics assertion i'm talking , n't point talking ethics ca n't agreed one expect sufficiently many people agree football , give evidence vanishing number disagrees set morals give i'm morals \( ethics \) ca n't get past values say , cogent objection 'freedom' example maybe people n't talking thing answer valuable maybe , want think , especially implications true , evidence , proof proof would evolve testing theory absolute morals competing theories garbage 's proof either one arguments reiterate never answer objections evidence preacher name fallacy frank o'dwyer 'i'm hatching that' odwyer sse ie hens , evelyn conlon
edm twisto compaq com \( ed mccreary \) subject studies book mormon reply leland stanford edu 's message tue , 20 apr 93 21 12 55 gmt organization compaq computer corp lines 27 tue , 20 apr 93 21 12 55 gmt , leland stanford edu \( carolyn jean \) said cjf agrino enkidu mic cl \( andres grino brandt \) asks mormons cjf although n't personally know independent , know cjf things cjf writes mention events , places , historical persons later discovered archeologist \? cjf one amusing things bom claim cjf civilization existed north america , mystical plates cjf found use steel metals , cjf lots wars \( ot \) one ever found metal swords cjf traces civilization native americans talking head archeology dept college topic mormon archeology came seems mormon church \( \) big giving grants prove native americans really lost tribe israel bunk would shake head knowingly listening , take grant , go real archeology anyway ed mccreary , edm twisto compaq com , laughter , would tao \( \) ' \( \)
cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) subject science theories organization university illinois urbana lines 19 per various threads science creationism , 've started book called christianity nature science jp question come one comments stated god necessarily religious term , could used scientific terms give explanation events theories , without proven scientific fact think got point quote section i'm vague examples gave quarks continental plates explanations science parts theories measurable , everything quantified , measured , tested , etc \? mac michael cobb wo n't raise taxes middle university illinois class pay programs champaign urbana bill clinton 3rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu nobody explain everything anybody g k chesterton
edm twisto compaq com \( ed mccreary \) subject age reason read rushdie 's reply sandvik newton apple com 's message wed , 21 apr 1993 06 38 30 gmt organization compaq computer corp edm 93apr20145436 gocart twisto compaq com vice ico tek com sandvik sandvik kent apple com lines 35 wed , 21 apr 1993 06 38 30 gmt , sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) said ks story kent , archetype finn , lives ks bay area , tried purchase thomas paine 's age reason ks man driving around , , books inc , well , ks place , , various places ks asked book , well educated american book store ks assistants placed asked check thriller section , ks said book published yet , ks receive book soon places assistants bluntly ks said n't know author , ks well known living author , n't keep copies books ks life times america , 200 years revolution sigh , n't feel bad searching copy bookstores habit mine least two years spend lot time browsing bookstores , new used , 've seen copy , know , pick phone order darned thing , come , america 's one founding fathers one carries books \? sure , find common sense think 's 's required reading colleges find one hole wall bookstore owner said usually carry one two copies , currently n't back since n't know telling truth sigh ed mccreary , edm twisto compaq com , laughter , would tao \( \) ' \( \)
uxa ecn bgu edu \( frank doss \) subject science theories organization educational computing network lines 27 nntp posting host uxa ecn bgu edu article news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) writes examples gave quarks continental plates sounds like gods used describe almost everything past come understand , less credit god , well understood elements \( least author \) includes quarks drift guess 's better describing perceived patterns stars sky heroes gods kinda sounds like old earth creation seems life , indeed , evolve common ancestor caused initial common ancestor \? going hear another debate causeless events \? \) explanations science parts theories measurable , everything quantified , measured , tested , etc \? mac michael cobb frank doss stated words opinions reflect opinions , attitudes , policies employer organizations
frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) subject theism fanatism \( islamic genocide \) organization siemens nixdorf ag lines 323 nntp posting host d012s658 ap mchp sni de article i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) writes article horus ap mchp sni de frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes theism strongly correlated irrational belief absolutes irrational belief absolutes strongly correlated fanatism \( deletion \) theism correlated fanaticism neither said fanatism caused theism theism leads fanatism point , theism increases chance becoming fanatic one could course argue would fanatics tend towards theism \( example \) , times history theism dominant ideology invalidate conclusion basic mechanism behind imo , influence stalin , matter , ayn rand , invalidates assumption theism factor considered bogus said theism factor fanatism point theism factor 's claim back consider argument useful following belief strongly correlated fanaticism therefore belief factor fanaticism true , utterly useless \( note , belief , belief gods \) tiring say least backed , read first statement read conspicuous absence evidence point latter fallacy wrong analogy saying someone believes something hardly information person saying someone theist holds much information , correlation theists fanatism higher belief fanatism special features theistic belief truth blatant assertion evidence \? gullibility , blind obedience authority , lack scepticism , , reliable indicators really dangerous people sources fanaticism often none things cynical manipulators gullible , know precisely 's claim support please note especially field theism , leaders believe say believe , 're incredibly naive , frank o'dwyer , living dream world wonder base discussion left statement matter fact , think ignorant human nature even one starts something one believe , one gets easily fooled actually believing one says give benefit doubt , prove statement onus proof , sunshine makes think theist leaders believe say \? especially say one thing another , say one thing closely followed opposite \? practice restricted theism , 's anyone see 's almost epidemic country instance , harder camel pass eye needle , catholic church wealthy land owner \? churches square inch country \? , brands theism , precisely theists , tend fanaticism , grant tar theists brush bigotry , reasoned argument reads like warm censorship restriction religious freedom ever read animal farm \? 's straw man usually discussions one repeat read written every theism leads fanatism , fanatism caused theism point , correlation , comes innate features theism , comes features theism common fanaticism last statement simply n't implied say , 're trying sneak innate features theism word 're groping bogus theism fanatic however , rest already gives backup statement correlation fanatism theism , specialty theistic beliefs allows switch fanatism easily takes nifty improvement theology truth blatant assertion gullibility , way , one shit , sherlock talk gullibility instead theism , since seems whole lot relevant case , opposed case trying make \? theism attraction gullible people causing correlation whole discussion started way statement theism correlated fanatism , challenged indeed recall , asked evidence correlation speak \? say going forbid religion another straw men interesting nothing better offer said reads like warm 's 's irrational bogus tirade , use creating nice us split minds excitable people found either side church walls blah blah blah quite well aware giving everyone rights protects better fanatics way round course , people always fanatics , never oneself wish theists seems pretty fanatical quite nice see actually implying connection argument rise fanatism far , another assertions \? \( 2 \) define irrational belief e g , rational believe reason always useful \? irrational belief belief based upon reason latter discussed long time charley wingate one point beliefs violate reason often , another process lend rational analysis contain reliable information well , glaring paradox argument reason useful based reason would circular , argument based reason would irrational \? 's bogus self reference circular since evaluation usefulness possible within rational systems , allowed k , 's oval 's still begging question , however though certainly allowed , 's rational claiming rational another assertions proof , evidence , claims hey learned good \? risk repeating , hearing n't hear refutation , 're back deal ca n't use reason demonstrate reason useful someone thinks reason crap wo n't buy , see unusually weak even latter implies proof depends opinion somehow accept triangles wo n't accept pythagoras wow , 's incredible insight n't prove wrong opinion possible show systems leave useful information respectively claims unreliable even absurd statements information totally circular , totally useless wish believe makes believe things judges appeal , information makes feel good believe may good , contains zillions possible pitfalls belief despite contrary evidence bogus proofs attempt truth blatant assertion 've seen many bogus proofs non existence gods existence rational systems , way , mean every data come logical analysis , point evaluation data contradict logic easily follows system allows evaluate rational yes , possible evaluate rational system rational fallacies system , since validity axioms agreed upon , little impact possibility demon ala descartes n't parse , sorry far matter consistency use arguments show system consistent n't evaluation predictions need rationality contradict , however argument silly proving mathematical statements needs mathematics mathematics circular anybody else think godel silly \? stream consciousness typing \? supposed mean \? first part second statement contains information , n't say beliefs beliefs strong theism strong atheism , statement general true second part sentence patently false counterexample axiomatic datum lend rational analysis , assumed contain reliable information regardless process used obtain 've speaking religious systems contradictory definitions god axiomatic datum lends rational analysis , say often refuted fallacy look discussion axiom choice , one evaluate axioms larger systems usually derived exist derived , want way , one test consistency set axioms trying say \? point , people always wind saying datum reliable particular reason example dreaming nope evidence trick choice axiomatic basis system difficult , possibilities one therefore chooses least assumptions assumptions necessary get information system anyway 'd like see alleged evidence one need define axioms order define evaluation method usefulness , foundation laid one feels \( 's one feels \) see irrational beliefs , fanatics never , \? compared evidence theists claims strength demands makes whole thing irrational antirational ca n't agree specific theism \? say theism necessarily antirational requires proof suspect using traditonal definition gods personal , supernatural entities objective effects world usually connected morals way world works imo , belief gods necessarily irrational mean people hold principle opposed exercise intelligence atheists also scientists , example n't use theism science would n't science please note subjective data lend scientific treatment well prohibit formulating objective statements ergo , nothing objective fair enough affinity fanatism easily seen true believe nothing work hypothesis however , beliefs say work hypothesis n't understand argument \? person believes system b becuase sounds nice make b true , best work hypothesis however , content b true work hypothesis testing evaluating evidence therefore dismissed b \( already believed \) says wrong waste time possible depending contents b idolaters protestants killed , interesting effects peculiar definition interesting , sure show belief gods entails contents speak n't catholic neighbours killing protestants , example \? maybe n't believe maybe 's conjunction b asserts b jail kill important , belief gods entirely irrelevant certainly seems , axe grind example neighbours fallacy neighbours n't says little others times exactly happened nope , 's fallacy n't go correlation wish see tell , irrelevant , statements idolaters holy books \? please note one could edit relevant anymore gods n't err \? say message \? excuse holy books \? come theists saying ordered god ok god easiest way excuse anything , therefore highly attracting fanatics mention effect interpretation fanatics rest believers happens god neither easiest way excuse anything , way frank o'dwyer 'i'm hatching that' odwyer sse ie hens , evelyn conlon
frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization siemens nixdorf ag lines 96 nntp posting host d012s658 ap mchp sni de article 1993apr20 cnsvax uwec edu nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \( david nye \) writes reply frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) problem objectivist determine status moral truths method established accept judgements reports relate ought \( see naturalistic fallacy \) cannot proved facts nature world avoided least two ways \( 1 \) leaving good undefined , since anyone claims know either lying touch humanity undeserving reply good undefined \( undefinable \? \) require everyone know innately right , back subjectivism , begging question see \( 2 \) defining good solely terms terms ditto statement implies value judgement part person making , incorrect , question begging see point objectivist may talk 'self evident pretty , prof flew deny subjectivist 's claim self evidence mind beholder \? course denying subject object true dichotomy please explain helps n't see argument n't see seems rest assertion everything either subject object 's nothing compelling dichotomy might well divide world subject , object , event even seems sensible causation , example , event , subject object furthermore , subject object true dichotomy , e everything either subject object , statement self evident truth \? , 's mind beholder , according relativist , hardly compelling add fact world quickly shoved entirety subjective category idealist argument , perfectly good alternate set categories \( subject , object , event \) reduced \( subject , object , quality \) without logical difficulty yes , guess denying self evident truths mind beholder , left claim moral judgements true \? nothing , moral judgements true thing commonly referred nihilism entails science value , fact people find useful anyone arrives relativism subjectivism argument beats makes sense either flew arguing objectivist winds , subjectivist furthermore , believed nothing except science , materialism , revolution , people i'm referring ethical nihilism subjectivist may well feel remains moral judgements would wish associate hold moral opinion , suggests , know something true preferences regarding human activity preferences include terrorism , moral opinion true likewise , preferences include , moral opinion true one choose set preferences include one includes \? oh , reason patently absurd also position subjectivist , pointed already others ditch strawman , already , see reply mike cobb 's root message thread societal basis morality 've responded btw n't intend strawman , something logically relativism \( really ethical system values assumed unreal \) 's different say relativists say relativism implies frank o'dwyer 'i'm hatching that' odwyer sse ie hens , evelyn conlon
bcash crchh410 nosubdomain nodomain \( brian cash \) subject free moral agency nntp posting host crchh410 organization bnr , inc lines 17 article minster york ac uk , cjhs minster york ac uk writes saying physical adam eve , humans direct two human beings \? cain able 's wives \? could n't sisters , e n't daughters non humans \? genesis 5 4 days adam begat seth eight hundred years , begat sons daughters chris ho stuart yeah , wives wives came nod , apparently land developed another set gods brian
bcash crchh410 nosubdomain nodomain \( brian cash \) subject room metaphor \? nntp posting host crchh410 organization bell northern research lines 7 \( \) take religious writings metaphor life sorts fiction , deep space nine idea limit one book , screen good stuff read , remember story sound \) brian
pww spacsun rice edu \( peter walker \) subject universe black holes , 2000 years organization n't , nobody saw , ca n't prove thing lines 28 article 1993apr22 iastate edu , kv07 iastate edu \( warren vonroeschlaub \) wrote article gap caltech edu , keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) writes well , suppose probe emitting radiation constant frequency sent towards black hole got closer event horizon , red shift would keep increasing period would get longer longer , would never stop observer would observe probe actually reaching event horizon detected energy probe would keep decreasing , would n't vanish exp \( \) never quite reaches zero 's kind meant precise , given observer , single position outside event horizon , would observer ever way , able detect probe crossed event horizon \? yes , unless observer rest respect singularity infinite distance away observer close approach bh see particle go finite time peter n't forget sing say 's heaven wait say 's better , say ai n't 'd rather laugh sinners cry saints sinners much fun good die young !
schnitzi eustis cs ucf edu \( mark schnitzius \) subject asimov stamp organization university central florida lines 18 battin cyclops iucf indiana edu \( laurence gene battin \) writes apart suggestion appeared letters column skeptical inquirer recently , mention possible asimov commemorative stamp \? idea n't followed , anyone know needs done get happen \? think great idea start petition something \? i'm sure religious types would get due asimov 's atheism atheists stamps \? mark schnitzius schnitzi cs ucf edu university central florida
praetzel sunee uwaterloo ca \( eric praetzel \) subject amusing atheists agnostics organization university waterloo lines 25 article timmbake mcl timmbake mcl ucsb edu \( bake timmons \) writes nah encourage people learn atheism see little atheists sleeves whatever might suspected actually quite riddle god \( \) exist earth grovel \? earth give \? evidence creature \( \) exist deserves anything beyond mild admiration sheer hatred done past \( whichever god \( \) care pick \) assuming records actions correct offers bliss bubble self contained reality seperate physical world belief system leave state drugs god \( \) requirement remove useless build set morals build society upon keep n't believe \( converting \) eric new viruses right life virus wo n't allow delete file , regardless old attempt erase file , requires first see counselor possible alternatives
eczcaw mips nott ac uk \( wainwright \) subject thoughts reply eczcaw mips nott ac uk \( wainwright \) organization nottingham university lines 27 article darkside osrhe uoknor edu , bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) writes james felder \( spbach lerc nasa gov \) wrote logic alert argument incredulity hard believe n't mean n't true liars look koresh cite whole basis great many rejecting christian account things words st madalyn murrey o'hair , face folks , 's silly okay disbelieve incredulity admit 's fallacy \? bill suppose reason believe gods different \? use arguments dismiss koresh god tell , , believe koresh son god \? logic equally possible koresh jesus reborn adda wainwright dim atal llanw ! 8o \) eczcaw mips nott ac uk 8o \) mae sig 'ma ar werth !
eczcaw mips nott ac uk \( wainwright \) subject death penalty \( political atheists \? \) reply eczcaw mips nott ac uk \( wainwright \) organization nottingham university lines 60 article 4mt darkside osrhe uoknor edu , bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) writes fascinating atheists argue abortion , prove atheist n't mean abortion defend homosexuality means population control , obvious effect homosexuality non procreation , unlike statement , fact please prove \( \) homosexuality defended means population control , \( b \) atheist causes hold beliefs defend homosexuality \( \) people bodies none business \( b \) defend equal rights humans \? insist values biological define values prove statement something contardictory , cannot exist , case means atheists suppose prove statement electrons waves electrons particles believe physical proof proof god \( tm \) ancient book indicative existence omnipotence , argument , christians n't exist would like understand atheist object war \( excellent means controlling population growth \) , capital punishment , i'm sorry logic escapes capital punishment , questioned , propriety killing punishment \? basis \? first , earlier statements absolutely nothing question post \? show athiests , besides existing \( view \) , humane christians religions \? secondly much control population growth logic cannot grasp indicates ignorance contraception course , \( sometimes literally \) religion since ca n't create followers , die bill adda wainwright dim atal llanw ! 8o \) eczcaw mips nott ac uk 8o \) mae sig 'ma ar werth !
organization penn state university psuvm psu edu subject go hell ! ! ! lines 1 jsn104 jeremy scott noonan
wam umd edu \( william david battles \) subject go hell ! ! ! nntp posting host wam umd edu organization university maryland , college park lines 26 article 1993apr16 ncsu edu aiken news ncsu edu \( wayne nmi aiken \) writes jsn104 psuvm psu edu wrote blashephemers ! ! ! go hell believing god ! ! ! ! prepared eternal damnation ! ! ! someone leave terminal unattended \? holy temple mass slack ncsu edu used underwear consumption ! legal tender po box bbs \( 919 \) 782 28 countries ! raleigh , nc warning hoard pennies bob probably ! jesus freak 's post probably jsn104 psuvm penn state loaded bible bangers use go vomit reason left even group try stop playing rock music dining halls one year cuz deemed satanic people run damn place part except liberal arts departments safe havens v rock music dining
augustana edu \( lloyd baker \) subject thoughts lines 67 nntp posting host 143 226 131 186 organization augustana college lines 67 article pdx com alan olsen p17 f40 n105 z1 fidonet org \( alan olsen \) writes alan olsen p17 f40 n105 z1 fidonet org \( alan olsen \) subject thoughts date wed , 21 apr 1993 03 25 06 0800 rh house helios usq edu au \( ron house \) rh newsgroups alt atheism rh organization university southern queensland rh bissda saturn wwc edu \( dan lawrence bissell \) writes first want start right say i'm christian rh know n't get involved , \) rh bit deleted book says jesus either liar , crazy \( modern day koresh \) actually said rest rant deleted standard argument fundies spot \? statement arguing assumption jesus actually existed far , able offer real proof existance thought necessary help defend point jesus existed guys jesus existed didnt , say socrates didnt exist cuz , like jesus , nothing hands survived plato others record existance many others record jesus' existance , including babylonian talmud sorry guys , argument jesus may existed dead point whether god whether god completely different story , however try using \( \) flawed writings josh mcdowell others prove , writers use flawed sources \( real sources , \) ever learn real research , instead believing drivel sold christian bookstores rh , dan , try one rh book says muhammad either liar , rh crazy \( modern day mad mahdi \) actually rh said reasons would n't liar rh follows would die lie \? would n't people able rh tell liar \? people gathered around rh kept , many gathered hearing seeing rh son law made sun stand still call fool , rh believe make sun stand still rh niether lunatic would entire nation rh drawn someone crazy doubtful , fact rh rediculous example anyone drawn mad rh mahdi obviously fool , logical people see right rh away rh therefore since n't liar lunatic , must rh real thing nice ! alan
kax cs nott ac uk \( kevin anthoney \) subject christian morality organization nottingham university lines 16 article 4949 eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com writes fact god could cause believe anything wants think minute would rather someone love made love , wanted love 's difference believing existence entity , loving entity god could show directly exists , 'd still free choice whether love n't \? kevin anthoney kax cs nott ac uk n't believe anything read sig files
frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) subject genocide caused theism evidence \? organization siemens nixdorf ag lines 181 nntp posting host d012s658 ap mchp sni de benedikt article horus ap mchp sni de frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes information invariant child son daughter singing santa claus n't argument \? \? assume , exactly \? \( \) people debate disagree premises hardly debate otherwise favorite point sense hs challenged , said , good question , address 've addressed \( caricature favourite point , needless say \) length previous outing , currently discussing eric rescorla \( b \) 's little point responding points everywhere best give everyone courtesy reply still repeat point \? curious , since believe first time 've ever made repetition would imply much seeming inability understand ask question , 'll give answer , especially case , know answer true best give everyone courtesy reply , everyone making points , i'm pushed time , try respond believe strongest points n't include post , tough usenet , life tough \( c \) since 's great deal responses n't always feasible best honestly answer questions put drop debates posters continue others appear issue every n months , start beginning 've debated issue twice , occasionally first response simon clippingdale 's positive assertion disagreement moral values acknowledges morals relative n't , simon dropped debate time take mean either busy , bored topic certainly accuse dishonesty \? \( \) ca n't always understand say neither ca n't understand time usually , one asks side means usually , one usually 're clear , sometimes n't ask mean times seem get extremely feel i'm debating line noise sometimes get tired , sometimes things 'd rather , usenet , life tough 're going deal \( e \) 're starting get personally insulting may even put name hat future 's supposed threat \? , 's simple statement , assertion answerable offer baseless insults example , accuse lying personal beliefs , also complaining n't answer questions like sense evidence sensed everything would easy almost everyone senses evidence sensed intents purposes , argument one , claim everyone senses founded , asked give evidence often , correct statement would reason assume unless evidence found problem second statement provided argument almost everyone senses freedom valuable cogent objection came jon livesey , offered people essentially , people disagree fuzzy concepts freedom 's good point , i'm thinking trick say , feel right , many know , therefore absolutely right possibility people consider right effect process , restricting claim subject process words , refutes make ontological claim , prove nonsense trick say feel better b almost disinterested person ask best evidence therefore really better b , subject assumption establish mutual satisfaction mean b , resulting system values self consistent get really better , fictional model , sense real material existence fictional model may may correspond something true nonetheless useful assumption far useful equally assumed relativist trick , wit feel better b , almost disinterested person ask however , even one person disagrees better b , even one person mutually agreed definitions b , case b better person , nothing said say useless implies supermajority seeking maximise cannot morally take action someone seeking maximise b \( e g terrorist \) would claim supermajority 's carefully considered morality would better terrorist 's would , course , true , ethical relativist claim ethical relativism implies anything else simply weasel words , example rival anything world religion similar argument , sense morality subjective , hurt things considered objectively wrong others mean things others consider objectively wrong , turns case course possible neither evidence subjectivism , evidence objectivism \( except sometimes , pragmatic sense \) serves counterexample everything subject judgements absolute long n't provide evidence something universally agreed upon reason believe hypothesis 've done freedom , still answer jon 's objection fuzzy concepts like freedom objective meaning , order make morality absolute , universal , objective , would show independent humans , attributes look quite misleading really evidence anything exists independently humans \? 'll hard pressed find n't logically equivalent applied values analogous set premises would premise 1 people believe objectively speaking shortest route house bar main entrance estate , road premise 2 checked , found shortest route much closer would never deduce shortest route house bar yet seemingly derive relativist claim , using premises logically different morals matter belief far people still believe shortest way main entrance agreement belief order analogy would show shortest way method convince everyone shortest way indeed words , analogy works one assumes premises right first place , fallacy argument objectivism , 'd right n't , though , 's demonstration argument gave neither argument objectivism , argument relativism gimmick assume first place values n't real , use prove values n't real words , beg question frank o'dwyer 'i'm hatching that' odwyer sse ie hens , evelyn conlon
perry dsinc com \( jim perry \) subject gulf war peace niks organization decision support inc lines 89 nntp posting host bozo dsinc com article 1993apr20 882 batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes article 1993apr20 bmerh85 bnr ca , dgraham bmers30 bnr ca \( douglas graham \) writes actually , rather like idea perhaps rest world bombed \( maybe \) washington us invaded nicaragua , grenada , panama , vietnam , mexico , hawaii , number places wait minute , doug know better informed us never invaded nicaragua \( far know \) liberated grenada liberate way invader describes invasion , including , i'm mistaken , iraqi liberation kuwait never invaded nicaragua \? word games say send marines \? mean word invaded sort military action cross someone 's border , right 5 6 normally invaded carries connotation attacking autonomous nation \( nation invades u virgin islands , would invading virgin islands u \? \) point view , score falls 2 6 \( mexico , panama \) oh , good word games let aggressor pick words , 's scarcely ever reprehensible military action 's peace nik \? somebody n't masturbate \? supposed bad peace nik \? , 's someone believes peace costs words , person would supported giving hitler austria , poland could war one would allow hitler wipe jews , slavs , political dissidents areas controlled long left rest us alone 's convenient technique , much seen alt atheism define disagree according straw man extreme matches virtually nobody supposed bad peace nik , ask \? well , depends values value life liberty , peace freedom , guess liberty freedom mean life 'd rather die fighting liberty live tyrant 's heel , yes , 's bad peace nik noble patriotic i'm sure fine young americans carpet bombed iraqi infantry positions horizon , destroyed iraq 's sewer water infrastructure safety sky , iraqi infantry trenches importantly commanders ordered thrilled risking death \( risking much \) defense liberty well , wealthy kuwaitis ca n't oil fields tyrant 's heel tyrant antagonistic us interests problem peace niks consider us like bad unconscionable would argument problem peace nik held ideals stayed conflicts issues , especially dealing national defense , willing allow us legitimately hold different point view holed peace niks \( context , people disagree conduct gulf war \) peace cost hitler supporting genocide , express righteous indignation refuse fit mold question conduct war legitimate terms dare ! many times resort violence name peace \( rank hypocrisy ! \) yes , hypocrisy indeed ! violent peace niks ! \( care list example \? \) stop willing stand defend freedoms tyrants , realize requires strong national defense wow instant '80 's nostalgia ! course , peace nik 's cold war derogatory term equating promote pacifism godless pinko communists yes indeed , felt freedoms mightily threatened iraq jim perry perry dsinc com decision support , inc , matthews nc opinions nominal fee ,
mandtbacka finabo abo fi \( mats andtbacka \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality reply frank d012s658 uucp 's message 21 apr 1993 09 38 43 gmt organization unorganized usenet postings uninc x news reader vms news 1 24 lines 151 horus ap mchp sni de frank d012s658 uucp writes deletia case anybody n't noticed , frank debating objective morality , seemingly hitting semantics secondly , refute definition \? point logical implications , say seem contradict usage word objective areas indeed , definition , objective x oxymoron , x quibble belief , useless , objective perfectly good word may , non native english speaker , 've misunderstood usage objective , tried debate something n't assert apologies i'm loss imagine really mean , though many ages universe , still internally self consistent \? 'd amazed one many different moral systems different members society indeed , single individuals , cases humanity still stick together \? begging question people many opinions age universe humanity still stick together saying universe real age , independent beliefs \? wrong point age universe direct effect humanity 's sticking power , way moral system society i'm saying universe real age , see evidence , astronomy say age independent people 's opinions , know different people lot different opinions matter , yet empirical tests consistently seem give roughly results age universe , like scientific facts , verified means 'll give result matter performs testing \( albeit error bars may side \) assumes universe real age , kind reality n't depend think ca n't see put creationist task performing tests calculations , see \( \) makes blatant errors measuring calculating , result test extreme biblical creationist give rat 's ass means speak \? logically consistent empirical tests contradict opinion tests opinion , tests \( would opinion \) would contradict mine , even conducted said tests identical manner , \? n't , take showing tests validity beyond opinion 've heard way verify morality consistent way , much less compute errors measurement care enlighten \? true pain , exist , predicted work accuracy better random guess map activity nerves neural activity , mean physical pain sharp point , 'll give still n't given way quantify morality wrote elsewhere morality hypotheses observed value agree hypotheses , however , change hold ultimate hypothesis morality towards changes could , could changed way imaginable , producing different results suitable different tasks purposes moral system makes prediction better , tested , better worse \( almost \? \) always defined context moral system prediction always correct , within moral system need objective definition good bad wish luck people 's ideas age object x objective idea like , ca n't stop ages another ballgame , dislike detail , 's problem opinion sure assume objective reality , get statements like n't 're , assuming objectively real morality \? besides , exactly provably wrong statement \? claim morality opinion , subjective individual i'm wrong , less objectively real thing exists , label objective morality back positive claim existence \? back positive claim \? 's 's assumption make assumption values , basis logical difference two , empirical basis two precisely claiming objective morality suddenly positive claim \? besides , think lend credence claim ponder different individuals , fully functional human beings members society , yet wildly different moral codes morality objective , least one way base , yet morality seems function fine come \? producing individuals , might easiest pick different societies say , islamic one system , example \( still exist \) deletia testing take look morality see anything \? , please inform way look , look particular way , opposed get drift \? look claiming never know good means \? one thing good circumstances , wish achieve goal , reason times wish something else , thing longer clearly good things hard make good , 'd seldom ever wish achieve sort goal mass murder would lead one still , fine wiped almost always know good means sometimes even know never claim good thereby fixed stone , immutable 's simple \( \? \) matter proving track record scientific method think 's great , applied values may completely wrong , 's conclude result quite amount thought yes , , 've tried thing two line n't look good objective values disclaimer \? 's great young insane !
rsrodger wam umd edu \( yamanari \) subject asimov stamp nntp posting host rac2 wam umd edu organization university maryland , college park lines 23 article schnitzi eustis schnitzi eustis cs ucf edu \( mark schnitzius \) writes battin cyclops iucf indiana edu \( laurence gene battin \) writes apart suggestion appeared letters column skeptical inquirer recently , mention possible asimov commemorative stamp \? idea n't followed , anyone know needs done get happen \? think great idea start petition something \? i'm sure religious types would get due asimov 's atheism atheists stamps \? point , long atheists going insulted addition religious blah blah money pledge \? 's big , noisy iq 8 \? operation rescue
aiken unity ncsu edu \( wayne nmi aiken \) subject replace dog trust organization ncsu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 18 andrew \( storm cs orst edu \) wrote risk beginning cascade , 'll start possibly cheesy good 'ol shield freedom , considering government past 50 years , perhaps would appropriate 100 debt holy temple mass slack ncsu edu used underwear consumption ! legal tender po box bbs \( 919 \) 782 28 countries ! raleigh , nc warning hoard pennies bob
frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) subject islamic genocide organization siemens nixdorf ag lines 110 distribution world nntp posting host d012s658 ap mchp sni de article fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes article bd6 horus ap mchp sni de , frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes article fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes noting particular society , case mainland uk , religously motivated murders , murders kind , says little whether inter religion murders elsewhere religiously motivated , allows one conclude nothing inherent religion \( matter , catholicism protestantism \) motivates one kill motivates allows \? christian bible says one may kill certain circumstances fact , instructs one kill certain circumstances 'd say majority people moral system instructs kill certain circumstances get distinction motivate allow , agree flavour theism , 's indictment theism rather depends talk christianity , islam , least claims understood 's people go general statement theism falls apart one could believe god instructs one utterly harmless part , conclude something else required also happen believe something else work less well without religion easy us religion supply , easy us \? necessarily love thy neighbour supply us definition religion broader definition theism , explained insisting even murder four , chosen catholics , nothing ira , protestant extremists , religously motivated , think saying simply accept murder religiously motivated guy cut someone 's head believed devil incarnate \? religously motivated protestant extremists killed four catholic \? n't religiously motivated \? opinion obscure point theology , yes since protestants n't \( elect extremists \) , 's broad say religion i'm saying causes far complex take away religious element , 'd still powerful motives revenge misguided patriotism know , catholics protestants worldwide say , one might listen , especially claim read minds also , murders ensuing fatwa mr rushdie , inquisitions , many religous wars 's special exceptions \? n't grab bag ad hoc excuses considering murders religiously motivated \? 's general principle behind \? general principle 's fairly clear \( , least \) religion primary motivator \( enabler , whatever \) 's nearly obvious 's going one looks ni , apart violence course 's abstract argument northern irish protestants say n't want absorbed officially catholic country supposed \? supposed reply , 's think n't want mr o'dwyer assures us matter say want , really want something else \? think would n't mind absorbed non catholic country \( uk course \) \? 's terrible thing lose mind maybe word country kicks certainly n't believe god think wish maintain position privilege i'm still listening say , still telling us version think read minds , n't 've speculated motives often enough , n't take statements beliefs face value therefore claim read minds credibility , sorry also note fail answer question looks much like axe grind especially indeed ignoring protestants say stop killing people refer properly described , protestants position privilege , religion based \? based politics , bigotry , heartless extremism none things synonymous religion , though certainly overlap frank o'dwyer 'i'm hatching that' odwyer sse ie hens , evelyn conlon
bobbe vice \( robert beauchaine 6086 59 323 lp \) subject asimov stamp organization tektronix inc , beaverton , lines 22 article schnitzi eustis schnitzi eustis cs ucf edu \( mark schnitzius \) writes i'm sure religious types would get due asimov 's atheism atheists stamps \? due discussion group time ago , theists would likely take asimov quote context paint biggest bible , god , atheist christian ever laid eyes right einstein bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com said queens could stay , blew bronx away , sank manhattan sea
bobbe vice \( robert beauchaine 6086 59 323 lp \) subject best lines 164 rapture october 28 , 1992 case miss rapture stay calm panic natural reaction realize occurred panic absolutely useless wanted get right god rapture , could , chose wait chance stay earth endure end tribulation shall endure unto end , shall saved matthew 24 13 ii realize living great tribulation great tribulation seven year period starting time rapture christ 's second coming also know time jacob 's \( israel 's \) trouble \( 30 7 \) daniel 's week \( dan 9 \) , period trouble horror iii gather many bibles hide soon antichrist becomes leader european community \( roman empire \) , bibles confiscated owning bible tantamount treason bible , however , valuable possession tribulation iv read bible like never read life since bibles may confiscated , even careful , imperative read word memorize whole passages quote especially important read daniel , luke 21 , matthew 24 , revelation , amos , books describe events expect v pray like never prayed life pray power god comes strongly upon pray pray pray reading word praying gain spiritual strength able withstand torture may endure sake christ vi take mark cost even fit means loved ones die martyrs antichrist becomes leader european community , institute world economic system , designed cannot buy , sell , eat unless take mark number name money useless causes , small great , rich poor , free slave , receive mark right hand , one may buy sell except one mark name beast , number name wisdom let understanding calculate number beast , number man number 666 revelation 13 16 18 antichrist implement greatest slaughter humanity think various ways people tortured killed past , holocaust maybe crusades \? cannot even imagine horror take place antichrist 's rule much worse anything history \( matt 24 21 \) saw altar souls slain word god testimony held white robe given said rest little longer , number fellow servants brethren , would killed , completed revelation 6 9 , 11 targets jews christians worship image take mark forehead right saw souls witness jesus word god , worshiped beast image , received mark hands revelation 20 4 use every form torture humiliation order force renounce christ hesitate use loved ones , even children , torturing killing front tempted take mark take mark worship antichrist image , however , second death , lake fire sung eloquently johnny cash cannot redeemed better endure torture short gain eternal life sic endure eternal torment ring h h h h lake fire anyone worships beast image , receives mark forehead hand , shall also drink wine wrath god , poured full strength cup indignation sic shall tormented fire brimstone presence holy angels presence lamb revelation 14 9 10 probably presence season ticket holders special hats given first 5 , 000 stadium vii set plan motion survival although may able hide antichrist 's government end tribulation , time gain hiding important spiritual growth strengthening , since extremely strong christ suffer die sake first thing move city rural mountainous area , antichrist 's control come last least populated areas take good radio tv stay events discern time schedule tribulation see weather map , heavy currents tribulation sweep area expect delays 95 outbound , perhaps school store water food , able purchase anything without mark water lakes streams polluted radioactive waste nuclear warfare eventually turn blood get good water filter bring different types clothing seasons , well , batteries , generators , first aid supplies short , learn survive live land pioneers viii trust one secret agents everywhere , spying antichrist 's government lookout perot supporters take note ix watch antichrist important realize antichrist , deceive many thinking great world leader bring peace prosperity world hungry infer daniel 11 certain characteristics man popular first three half years tribulation , dominate airwaves physically appealing , highly intelligent , christ like personality international politician , military economic expert , word peace make treaty jews , break three half years supernatural power mortal wound head healed even elect deceived pray read bible , deceived dominate airwaves \? perhaps howard stern rush limbaugh antichrist companion , false sic , make image antichrist cause speak refuse sic image killed final three half years absolutely insane , spirits everywhere x give hope ! seven years tribulation end triumphant return christ antichrist defeated steadfast endure , rewarded greatly heaven start reading bible praying salvation sould depends upon determine , come may , take mark worship antichrist still chance saved remain saved , time faithful unto death may god find ready hour glorious return ! mike christianity stupid ubvms mike ubvms give ub language perception laboratory bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com said queens could stay , blew bronx away , sank manhattan sea
dirac phys ualberta ca \( kevin \) subject atoms real \? nntp posting host dirac phys ualberta ca organization university alberta , edmonton canada lines 44 article news rich bnr ca bcash crchh410 nosubdomain nodomain \( brian cash \) writes petri mathew , discusion reality atoms interesting , would seem question anything real , since observation 100 reliable , say anything real n't think intention original question , since define word real nothing meet criteria thought brian ps shadows real objects , phenomenon interesting question would atoms objects \( classical \) phenomenon \( neo quantum \) \? 've following train talk , question dismissing atoms sense real leaves uneasy seems implied effects , therefore underlying thing necessarily real tree outside window category observe light bounces , tree observation indirect , observations made atoms also , observations experiments routinely done individual atoms thinking particular atom trapping experiments tests fundamental quantum mechanics quantum zeno effect , individual atom studied long period time attempts quantum mechanical arguments satisfying either one making arguments without solid technical background field read seemed little confused quite red herring anyway , purpose public debate make audience think , worked , i'm willing try defend following assertion anyone cares atoms real trees , real every day sense word real
halat pooh bears \( jim halat \) subject free moral agency keywords another thread destined kill file reply halat pooh bears \( jim halat \) distribution na lines 19 article kmr4 po cwru edu , kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) writes article lynx unm edu cfaehl vesta unm edu \( chris faehl \) writes myth refer convoluted counterfeit athiests created make religion appear absurd n't need counterfeit athiest 's myth make religion appear absurd need read friendly christian bill conner 's posts jim halat halat bear com bear stearns whatever n't kill serve annoy nyc speak
karner austin ibm com \( f karner \) subject thoughts originator frank karner austin ibm com organization ibm advanced workstation division lines 21 article 1993apr20 mks com , mike mks com \( mike brookbank \) writes article 1993apr15 mac cc macalstr edu acooper mac cc macalstr edu writes article bissda 4 734849678 saturn wwc edu , bissda saturn wwc edu \( dan lawrence bissell \) writes die lie \? would n't people able tell liar \? light yesterday 's events waco , texas guess answer questions obvious think waco one example think back 1972 jonestown 900 people died lie deletions correction think 1978 also , contrary earlier belief , widely accepted committed suicide , actually killed end , die lie , conviction alone thought try make point clear disclaimer opinions expressed posting mine solely represent employer way f karner aix technical support karner austin vnet ibm com
darice yoyo cc monash edu au \( fred rice \) subject islam sufism \( move islam discussions \) organization monash university , melb , australia lines 18 \( short reply kent sandvik 's post strange somehow sufism related islam , seem quite different \) one really understands islam , strange sufism associated fact , sufism \( general \) seen inner dimension islam one roots word islam submission islam denotes submission god sufism complete submission god imaginable , oneself god \( path , read lot recently discussing number things others path \) fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au
darice yoyo cc monash edu au \( fred rice \) subject genocide caused atheism organization monash university , melb , australia lines 19 1993apr19 cs nott ac uk eczcaw mips nott ac uk \( wainwright \) writes article 1993apr19 monu6 cc monash edu au , darice yoyo cc monash edu au \( fred rice \) writes \( great respect love particular person equal form theism \) fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au hmm jesus \? sure , person could great respect jesus yet atheist \( great respect jesus necessarily mean one follow christian muslim interpretation life \) fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au
kempmp phoenix oulu fi \( petri pihko \) subject atheism survey organization university oulu , finland lines 88 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 replied query via e mail , think issues worth discussing public mta \( unix amherst edu \) wrote research atheism , part involves field research net following survey directed towards readers group , intended get data basis atheistic belief would recommend take look 1 \) dictionary 2 \) alt atheism faq files notice atheism belief system , common atheists belief , lack belief deities cannot imagine anyone could research atheism without paying careful attention issue first , 've tried structure questions answered variety ways , varying amounts detail 's possible give succinct answers everything , 's enough keep typing hours , i'm sure imho , poor method real survey , although i'm sure replies might keep amused hours also , tend use lot anthropological buzzwords like belief system although know might contend n't beliefs , skeptical towards everything understand know mean think buzzwords abbreviations rather phrases required get precise idea across , know mean surveying individual philosophies , fine , 's strictly atheism atheism another , godless version theistic explanations life , universe everything belief system , could hardly called philosophical system atheism lack belief deities twist meaning , assume kind philosophy agree comments questions contact atheists \( \) conversion atheism \? \( certainly involvement alt atheism counts net discussions affected beliefs \? \) would also like hear able anyone \? convinced beliefs acquired wholly rational means \( proofs non existence god , etc \) , perhaps , least part , means \( alienation mainstream religion , etc \) \? question contains contradiction terms beliefs cannot acquired rationally could , would beliefs ! also seem rather strange ideas people become atheists alienated religion necessarily become atheists , think little religion seems requires considerable time honest inquiry find religions actually intellectually dishonest virtual realities never beliefs certainly find question quite odd lack belief acquired \? acquire lack belief easter bunny \? \( believe santa , though \) \) extent feel understand universe beliefs \? phenomena universe human existence \( anything physical phenomena problem existence evil human affairs \) feel adequately dealt beliefs , lacking explanatory method \? question make sense , since atheism deal issues worldview , philosophy , belief system sigh , n't seen good , well thought survey usenet three years point surveys net , anyway \? abstract opinions \? petri ' '' petri pihko kem pmp mathematics truth ! ' ' ' ' ' pihatie 15 c finou oulu fi physics rule ' ' ' sf 90650 oulu kempmp game ' finland phoenix oulu fi chemistry game
frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) subject theism fanatism \( islamic genocide \) organization siemens nixdorf ag lines 164 nntp posting host d012s658 ap mchp sni de article i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) writes article 3r horus ap mchp sni de frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes theism strongly correlated irrational belief absolutes irrational belief absolutes strongly correlated fanatism \( deletion \) theism correlated fanaticism neither said fanatism caused theism theism leads fanatism point , theism increases chance becoming fanatic one could course argue would fanatics tend towards theism \( example \) , times history theism dominant ideology invalidate conclusion basic mechanism behind imo , influence stalin , matter , ayn rand , invalidates assumption theism factor considered bogus said theism factor fanatism point theism factor 's claim back consider argument useful following belief strongly correlated fanaticism therefore belief factor fanaticism true , utterly useless \( note , belief , belief gods \) gullibility , blind obedience authority , lack scepticism , , reliable indicators really dangerous people sources fanaticism often none things cynical manipulators gullible , know precisely 's claim support please note especially field theism , leaders believe say believe , 're incredibly naive , brands theism , precisely theists , tend fanaticism , grant tar theists brush bigotry , reasoned argument reads like warm censorship restriction religious freedom ever read animal farm \? 's straw man usually discussions one repeat read written every theism leads fanatism , fanatism caused theism point , correlation , comes innate features theism , comes features theism common fanaticism last statement simply n't implied say , 're trying sneak innate features theism word 're groping gullibility , way , one shit , sherlock talk gullibility instead theism , since seems whole lot relevant case , opposed case trying make \? say going forbid religion another straw men interesting nothing better offer said reads like warm 's 's irrational bogus tirade , use creating nice us split minds excitable people found either side church walls \( 2 \) define irrational belief e g , rational believe reason always useful \? irrational belief belief based upon reason latter discussed long time charley wingate one point beliefs violate reason often , another process lend rational analysis contain reliable information well , glaring paradox argument reason useful based reason would circular , argument based reason would irrational \? 's bogus self reference circular since evaluation usefulness possible within rational systems , allowed k , 's oval 's still begging question , however though certainly allowed , 's rational claiming rational risk repeating , hearing n't hear refutation , 're back deal ca n't use reason demonstrate reason useful someone thinks reason crap wo n't buy , see argument silly proving mathematical statements needs mathematics mathematics circular anybody else think godel silly \? first part second statement contains information , n't say beliefs beliefs strong theism strong atheism , statement general true second part sentence patently false counterexample axiomatic datum lend rational analysis , assumed contain reliable information regardless process used obtain 've speaking religious systems contradictory definitions god axiomatic datum lends rational analysis , say often refuted fallacy look discussion axiom choice , one evaluate axioms larger systems usually derived exist derived , want way , one test consistency set axioms trying say \? point , people always wind saying datum reliable particular reason example dreaming compared evidence theists claims strength demands makes whole thing irrational antirational ca n't agree specific theism \? say theism necessarily antirational requires proof suspect using traditonal definition gods personal , supernatural entities objective effects world usually connected morals way world works imo , belief gods necessarily irrational mean people hold principle opposed exercise intelligence atheists also scientists , example affinity fanatism easily seen true believe nothing work hypothesis however , beliefs say work hypothesis n't understand argument \? person believes system b becuase sounds nice make b true , best work hypothesis however , content b true work hypothesis testing evaluating evidence therefore dismissed b \( already believed \) says wrong waste time possible depending contents b idolaters protestants killed , interesting effects peculiar definition interesting , sure show belief gods entails contents speak n't catholic neighbours killing protestants , example \? maybe n't believe maybe 's conjunction b asserts b jail kill important , belief gods entirely irrelevant certainly seems , axe grind frank o'dwyer 'i'm hatching that' odwyer sse ie hens , evelyn conlon
dps nasa kodak com \( dan schaertel , , , \) subject christian morality reply dps nasa kodak com organization eastman kodak company lines 54 nntp posting host 129 126 121 55 article ousrvr oulu fi , kempmp phoenix oulu fi \( petri pihko \) writes dan schaertel , , , \( dps nasa kodak com \) wrote love god much loves wants seduce , 'll know would probably consider rape simple logic arguments folly read bible see jesus made fools tried trick logic ability reason spec creation yet think ultimate rely simply reason never know argument type 'll know try yet many atheists sincerely tried , believed many years , eventually honest enough admit lived virtual reality obviously many christians tried believe \? learn must accept n't know mean \? learn must accept n't know something , right learn must accept something n't know , \? way prefer learn unwise merely swallow everything read suppose write book telling great invisible pink unicorn \( tm \) helped daily problems , would accept , since ca n't know whether true \? one asks swallow everything , fact jesus warns let ask question beleive learn history class , matter anything school mean 's people told n't want swallow others say right \? life , death , resurection christ documented historical fact much anything else learn choose believe \? could argue george washington myth never lived n't proof except told however major events life jesus christ hundreds years neat trick uh \? way get sceptical heart say given sincere effort attitude seem must trust , go church participate 's activities ever willing die believed \?
arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \( ken arromdee \) subject alt atheism faq constructing logical argument organization johns hopkins university cs dept lines 27 's suggestion logical argument faq n't think 's covered , though fallacy probably better name one used , mathew \? inconsistency counterexample occurs one party points source information takes stand , inconsistent b two variations b either mutually agreed premise else stand elsewhere source second party responds saying see , source really say b , 's right ! reply refute allegation inconsistency show source says b example first type koran says unbelievers treated ways agree immoral koran clearly says passage unbelievers treated way example second type two biblical creation stories 're wrong , since bible clearly describes creation description first day christmas truelove served leftover turkey ! second day christmas truelove served turkey casserole made leftover turkey days 3 4 deleted flaming turkey wings ! pizza hut commercial \( tlu gic bait \) ken arromdee \( arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \)
subject religion cause \( islamic authority women \) ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu \( scott sauyet \) distribution world nntp posting host wesleyan edu x news reader vms news 1 20in reply bil okcforum osrhe edu 's message tue , 20 apr 1993 00 36 52 gmtlines 55 lines 55 bill conner \( bil okcforum osrhe edu \) writes stuff deleted n't make outrageous claims religion 's affecting history , , point many claims made wrong nothing validate atheism bill , seem erroneously assumed board sole purpose validation atheism n't board used discuss atheism philosophy , share experiences regarding atheism , debunk various theisms theism whole , share resources relating atheism , even others similar views course number theists come preach , also used argue case atheism time made statement religion sole cause anything , done point make kind claim mistaken , usually deliberately want accuse people lying , please directly phrase deliberately mistaken rather oxymoronic credit religion awesome power dominate history misunderstand human nature , function religion course , history believe distort history way know exaclty 're , affect two forms theism often discussed days christianity islam claim make followers good people , claim much benefit humanity accomplished faiths imho right american friends service committee \( \) , catholic relief services , bread world , salvation army soup , mother spring mind \( someone knowledge islam supply names islamic groups \? \) mother claims work outgrowth christianity , believe form theism deity benevolence toward humanity would wrong care need point philosophy power change behavior individuals widespread enough , change societies works horrors history claim christianity little crusades inquisition deny awesome power comes faith absolute seems twisting reasonable statement religion never solitary cause evil unreasonable statement religion evil impacts history absurd scott sauyet ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu
nanci ann miller nm0w andrew cmu edu subject books organization sponsored account , school computer science , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 23 edm 93apr20145436 gocart twisto compaq com nntp posting host andrew cmu edu reply edm 93apr20145436 gocart twisto compaq com edm twisto compaq com \( ed mccreary \) writes 're topic books , anyone else noticed paine 's age reason hard find 've wanting pick copy , bad enough mail order 've noticed though none bookstores go seem carry thought supposed classic 's deal \? actually , 've got entire list books written various atheist authors went largest bookstore area \( pittsburgh \) could n't find section bookstore find kinds books \? look alternative bookstore \? help would appreciated \( send list want \) thanks , nanci know \( sure \) author quote , please send email \( nm0w andrew cmu edu \) fate country depend kind paper drop ballot box year , kind man drop chamber street every morning
nanci ann miller nm0w andrew cmu edu subject college atheists organization sponsored account , school computer science , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 34 nntp posting host po5 andrew cmu edu reply 1993apr20 cnsvax uwec edu nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \( david nye \) writes read article poll done students ivy league schools reported third students atheists lot higher among general population wonder reasons discrepancy \? intelligent \? younger \? wave future \? would guess probably something ease ideas thoughts communicated college campus real world \( tm \) 's easier theists \( well , people general really \) lock little bubble see talk people opinion college constantly surrounded interact people different ideas life , universe , everything much much harder build bubble around keep everyone else 's ideas reaching , world theists forced contend listen atheists theists religions bound change beliefs four years nowhere run \) david nye \( nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \) midelfort clinic , eau claire wi patently absurd whoever wishes become philosopher must learn frightened absurdities bertrand russell nanci know \( sure \) author quote , please send email \( nm0w andrew cmu edu \) fate country depend kind paper drop ballot box year , kind man drop chamber street every morning
\( rashid \) subject yet rushdie islamic law nntp posting host 47 252 4 186 organization nh lines 126 article 1993apr22 nic csu net , davec silicon csci edu \( dave \) wrote article 1993apr22 bnr ca \( rashid \) writes stuff deleted point post rushdie condemned solely words book \( although certainly contributing factor \) whole series actions rushdie publishers following publication book initial media spotlight placed book , \( large part \) led fatwa kind fatwa levelled rushdie lightly placed number anti islamic writers within outside islamic world made , someone adds fuel explosive situation , might charged incitement riot people die rioting charges might become even serious rushdie blamed deaths people demonstrating \? deaths blamed people dealt demonstrations , demonstrators , violent lengths go justify barbaric behaviour rushdie \? rushdie situation exploded media , muslim voice matter book effectively restricted short video bytes showing dramatic highlights muslim demonstrations every twenty newspaper , magazine articles , interviews etc supporting rushdie , would appear one muslim voice person usually selected based dramatic incoherent , knowledge islam situation time approx twenty one ratio continued throughout escalation crisis , rushdie central spotlight man moment , valiant defender 's right free speech responsibility \( aside , 's interesting hue cry freedom speech went , books \( certain ethnic religious groups \) continued banned felt injured sensibilities groups presented false image could promote feelings hate towards groups muslims kind double standard annoying \) rushdie saw spotlight golden opportunity organized islam , admirable verbal skill kind islam rushdie finds palatable calls secular islam islam separated 's qur'an , 's prophet , god , legislation , importantly intrusion political arena fine rushdie made views known muslim 's made anger book known scale whole affair erupted global proportions , time , already political situation affecting governments well individuals situation serious one , far reaching political implications centre turmoil rushdie , throwing fuel fire engaged personal crusade made oblivious sense caution may feel person centre worldwide storm responsibility , reason exercise restraint kind , obligation perhaps step back momentarily spotlight till matters calm perhaps even feel justified boldly defying anger dare take literary work , matter insult find within perhaps see kind secular heroic knight , mounted media steed , battle dragon islamic fundamentalism well khomeini saw author grew muslim atmosphere , knew well muslim 's hold dear , wrote book uses certain literary conventions slander , insult , attack islam notable personalities , faced situation became worldwide crisis , continued mischief world stage media , even people injured killed magnitude emotion situation , continued mischief , instead good sense desist khomeini saw crisis mischief making grand scale , mischief making grew scale scale crisis enlarged deaths muslims around world rushdie 's continued media mischief even , triggering factor seemed decide khomeini putting stop mischief person centre events rushdie source continuing mischief media support , government support support source rushdie \( publishers , nothing short ecstatic publicity happy see rushdie constantly media \) islamic rulings deal people engage kind grand scale mischief making , applied rushdie 're attempts justification image islam good made attempts justification , explanation image chief concern muslim islam rushdie muslims willingly relegated becoming sub culture within larger secular culture , secular principles laws precedence laws islam doubt islam would thought good image \( principally would large reflect secular image \) good image usually means like attempts totally rushdie reflect exactly attitude resulted polarization brought crisis iran , situation monitored many months rushdie kept adding fuel flames free worldwide voice media gave , situation monitored seriously , even many deaths occured worldwide , rushdie still desist fatwa pronounced behaving like total jerk lives , jerk sees still insists right behave like total jerk rug jerked muslims n't make big fuss book , like issuing death threats , killing publishers , one would heard fatwa came later much later rushdie n't mouth much media , fuss would died one would killed , fatwa would passed whole episode would away
subject read rushdie 's satanic verses \? sham cs arizona edu \( shamim zvonko mohamed \) organization u arizona cs dept , tucson lines 66 article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) writes yes qur'an discusses point several ways , quite directly example , says god appear would need faith belief evidence would definitive ah ! excellent n't appear \? i'm little weak blind faith department \( besides , n't even really need appear , oh say , little tip something like put 3 7 30 dog races perhaps dream vision \) know muhammed n't go desert smoke something \? would person high write well consistency \? i'm afraid n't know arabic read translations would n't know well written \( consistent , though , one thing quran \) read arabic \? besides , best writing done influence , shall say , consciousness altering substances know scribes dictated quran n't screw , put little verses \? 'd good without destroying beauty literary quality text arabic text yes , \? know n't good \? \( , assuming quran written \) muhammed marry four women , muslim allowed \? muhammad exceed number revelation regulating number wives man could marry , ok , retract point \( although might still say knew , done something \) \( although think biggest insult islam majority followers would want suppress book , sight unseen , say holy guy mention murder author \) agree really true case \? n't interviewed muslims would really like false ca n't take say sources \? another case judging principles basis claim follow basis judge system \? especially ca n't get consistent picture islam really believe khomeini \? go imam mosque mecca \? perhaps guy new jersey \? perhaps say go quran ok , whose translation \? things like wherever find idolators , kill \? shamim mohamed uunet , noao , cmcl2 ! arizona ! shamim shamim cs arizona edu take cross garlic 's mezuzah 's jewish page koran 's muslim 's zen buddhist , 're member league programming freedom write lpf uunet uu net
dirac scri fsu edu \( stephen l \) subject genocide caused theism evidence \? organization supercomputer computations research institute lines 12 saw 3 hour show pbs day history jews , \( religious war 'the holy land' \) sparked widespread persecution jews europe among supporters , none martin luther , vatican later , hitler would use writings justify treatment jews genocide caused theism evidence \? sd
danb shell portal com \( dan e babcock \) subject societal basis morality nntp posting host jobe organization portal communications company 408 973 9111 \( voice \) 408 973 8091 \( data \) lines 14 article news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) writes 1 \) basis say actions another society , \( per hitler comment \) wrong \? ultimately rests personal opinion opinion \) 2 \) majority make right \? question n't make sense maybe would better ask , makes democracy better example totalitarian \? dan
lamontg u washington edu subject high times ! ! ! ! ! ! ! organization lines 33 reply lamontg u washington edu nntp posting host mead u washington edu originator lamontg mead u washington edu ucs umass edu \( sol \) writes theory , though yet unproven , due simple envy due fact two issues religion religion religion personal belief system religion memetic virus people loudly proclaiming beliefs crossing border religion religion people want save others firmly entrenched religion \( \) rule 1 practicing religion shut fuck , unless discuss politely means motive behind conversation self wish spread word religion something ultimately comes within person , reflects value judgements religion something contracted others reflect persons value judgements \( perhaps think 'll brainwashed today \) religion drug believe discuss religion however , post started discussion , proclamation someones religion think i'm talking censorship i'm closeminded n't understood n't problem discussion religion , religion ca n't stand
lamontg u washington edu subject high times ! ! ! ! ! ! ! organization lines 14 reply lamontg u washington edu nntp posting host mead u washington edu originator lamontg mead u washington edu rubble leland stanford edu \( adam heath clark \) writes seems large part christianity based notion right religion , way looking universe flat wrong old days inquisition burning heretics pat buchanan trying start cultural war ca n't stand live country , non god fearing people survival trait fixed number resources \( people \) religions inhabit doctrines intolerance using birth control devices whereby meme \( capital r \) religion christianity gains larger share population memetic competitors
mayne pipe cs fsu edu \( william mayne \) subject christian morality organization florida state university computer science department reply mayne cs fsu edu lines 15 article 1993apr21 dcs warwick ac uk simon dcs warwick ac uk \( simon clippingdale \) writes dan , i'm concerned grave spiritual danger stubborn refusal love accept heart mighty invisible pink unicorn nice parody deleted shall pray fact , brother , cast demon name mighty invisible pink unicorn dan , must faith ! better pray , , believe mighty pink unicorn exist one cannot pink invisible demon \( daemon \? \) keeps believing saving soul named logic bill mayne
perry dsinc com \( jim perry \) subject read rushdie 's satanic verses \? organization decision support inc lines 34 nntp posting host bozo dsinc com article optima cs arizona edu sham cs arizona edu \( shamim zvonko mohamed \) writes article bozo dsinc com perry dsinc com \( jim perry \) writes anyway , since seem one following particular line discussion , wonder many rest readership read book \? thoughts \? read first came liked time still sorta kinda thought muslim , could n't see flap thank know least though may drugs , least i'm one writing style little hard get used , well worth effort coming similar background \( rushdie grew bombay muslim family , moved england grew new \) , made strong impression \( used many strange constructions indian english end sentence , , occasional phrase , etc \) yes , took getting used course indian connection , knowledge , etc , trivial , thanks wonders net , glossary satanic verses , posted rec arts books , explains lot indian english constructions , indian culture references , even islamic references \( , submission , context satanic verses incident , etc \) covers first couple hundred pages , helped get flow novel mail anyone interested anyone portions part , exist , 'd like get jim perry perry dsinc com decision support , inc , matthews nc opinions nominal fee ,
doe carleton ca \( richard griffith \) subject burden proof organization dept electronics , carleton university lines 23 7hg aurora engr latech edu ray engr latech edu \( bill ray \) writes make statement , god exists , loves , etc way insist believe , place burden proof upon insist god n't exist , place burden proof upon \? give proofs , give testimony beliefs respond proofs attempt disprove beliefs reaction people claim space aliens \? people say , , experimented , etc insist aliens n't exist burden proof placed us people give hard facts give lot testimony back beliefs replace space aliens elvis , big foot , blue unicorns , larger percentage population like think sometimes wonder reality really different experience everone
mikec sail labs tek com \( micheal cranford \) subject rawlins debunks creationism summary creationist nonsense organization tektronix , inc , beaverton , lines 78 john e king \( king ctron com \) posts whopping one liner modern theory evolution inadequate deserves treated matter faith francis hitching points make posting 1 science based consist quotes either real alleged experts critical reasoning , evidence \( possible \) experimentation necessary creationists frequently display massive confusion merely quoting non experts experts alike \( latter quotes fact false \) refusing follow kind rigorous scientific procedure strongly suggests \( \) claims completely lack scientific merit \( b \) aware fatal deficiency course , may actually creationist may real intent 2 failed identify hitching surrounding context statement \? hitching scientific illiterate quote would merely display profound ignorance evolutionary biology creationists frequently known quote real scientists context fabricate statements subsequently attribute legitimate scientists course , may actually creationist may real intent 3 evidence supporting alleged inadequacies modern theory evolution would much powerful argument one line quote unidentified nobody also important note disproving biological evolution automatically prove alternate claims disproving earth shaped like hockey puck proves hyperbolic creationists seem rather fond diving \( head first \) logical fallacy course , may actually creationist may real intent 4 since evolution central virtually modern science , attack evolution \( either fact theory \) really represents attack science theory unquestionably continue evolve \( b \) fact evolution ever go away creationists lost battle long ago \( 100 years fact \) simply willfully ignorant irrational acknowledge fact course , may actually creationist may really ignorant warren kurt vonroeschlaub \( kv07 iastate edu \) asks neither , webster 's ever heard francis hitchings \? , like hitchings , found webster 's b \) francis hitchings scientifically illiterate creationist \( perhaps playing part one \) wrote quite ignorant book attacking evolution \( neck giraffe \) publication quotes creationist \( jean morton \) using standard invalid creationist probability argument proteins could formed chance thus confusing abiogenesis evolution \( two quite independent \) also concluding non sequitur \( e conclusion follow \) pp 70 71 hitchings also misquotes richard effort support creationism pp 84 hitchings book reviewed national park service david los angeles times \( repeated \) article titled sticks scientific neck far excerpts include francis hitchings goes darwin like mark scientific reasoning mysticism pseudo science snake oil salesman suggests mystical life , using similarity organs different creatures evidence sic note last statement actually evidence evolution john e king quoting reviewed book would n't surprise much 's also interesting king nothing add \( e posted quote \) uucp uunet ! tektronix ! sail ! mikec cranford uunet ! tektronix ! sail labs tek com ! mikec principal troll arpa mikec sail labs tek com relay cs net resident skeptic mikec sail labs tek com , tektronix
conor owlnet rice edu \( conor frederick \) subject genocide caused theism evidence \? organization rice university lines 23 article dvi mailer cc fsu edu dirac scri fsu edu \( stephen l \) writes saw 3 hour show pbs day history jews , \( religious war 'the holy land' \) sparked widespread persecution jews europe among supporters , none martin luther , vatican later , hitler would use writings justify treatment jews genocide caused theism evidence \? heck , remember reading quote luther something like jews shot like deer course much catholic doctrine centuries extremely anti semitic sure truth justice worth truths centuries \? de certainty rises doubt critique \? karl rice university , rice college '96
kcochran nyx cs du edu \( keith justified ancient cochran \) subject political atheists \? x disclaimer nyx public access unix system run university denver denver community university neither control responsibility opinions users organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept lines 44 article gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) writes kcochran nyx cs du edu \( keith justified ancient cochran \) writes wait talking ethics morals \? distinction important \? yes well , make ethics deal individuals morals deal groups well , moral system seems mimic natural one , number ways please describe number ways detail explain contradictions may arise look human behavior mimics animal behavior could n't even begin list similarities many due high intelligence please describe number ways detail explain contradictions may arise n't know wrong \? possible humans survive long time wild \? yes , 's possible , difficult humans social animal , cause success define difficult n't understand n't understand sentence , yes , 's possible , difficult humans survived wild hundreds thousands years noted earlier , lack mating \( abstinence homosexuality \) n't really destructive system worst neutral every member species homosexual , would n't destructive survival species \? animals exhibit homosexuality actually bisexual answer question , keith homosexuality detrimental survival species \? kcochran nyx cs du edu b \( 0 4 \) c e f g k \( \) r \( \) \( \) tsakc thoughts , posts , ideas , responsibility , beer , pizza ok \? \? \?
frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) subject statistics , theism atheism organization siemens nixdorf ag lines 192 nntp posting host d012s658 ap mchp sni de article 1993apr24 dcs warwick ac uk simon dcs warwick ac uk \( simon clippingdale \) writes article 8mb horus ap mchp sni de frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes article 1993apr15 dcs warwick ac uk simon dcs warwick ac uk \( simon clippingdale \) writes write imagine alterian dollars turn bank account every month suppose money paid \( \) big hearted alterian benefactor , \( b \) bug alterian atm let 's suppose true dichotomy , p \( \) p \( b \) 1 trouble , alterius different universe , observations alterius possible \( except banks could n't possibly afford \) let 's examine case \( \) evidence whatsoever thing big hearted alterian benefactor however , p \( exists \( b h b \) \) p \( \( exists \( b h b \) \) 1 grounds lack evidence evidence partition like , dismiss hypothesis \( \) turning , therefore , \( b \) , also find evidence support hypothesis grounds , dismiss hypothesis \( b \) problem dismissed possible hypotheses , even though know construction money arrives every month , proven ca n't , dismissed potential causes 's extremely poor argument , 's premise 1 money paid either \( \) big hearted alterian benefactor , \( b \) bug alterian atm thus monthly appearance bucks , happen , observation alterius , construction , evidence existence either benefactor bug atm premise 2 observations alterius possible \( except banks could n't possibly afford \) forgot include premise actually premise 2 set possible observations alterius one clearly contradictory first state properly trouble , basis premise 2 , say evidence either benefactor bug , first premise leads conclusion appearance bucks , happen , evidence existence either benefactor bug voila , screaming contradiction highlights sc strawman argument evidence \( benefactor , bug \) observation distinguish benefactor bug possible evidence bug , neither evidence benefactor true say hypothetical universe appears exactly benefactor bug \( two statements , would false \) still contradictory reduces \( 1 \) alterian arriving account due benefactor bug \( 2 \) evidence benefactor , neither evidence bug \( meaning n't lend weight one \) \( 3 \) therefore evidence exist benefactor evidence exist bug \( 3 \) relies shift meaning \( 2 \) say \( paraphrased \) \( 2 \) evidence benefactor , example , mean 's evidence benefactor bug yes , 's mean \( 3 \) , however , 've shifted meaning evidence benefactor means evidence benefactor rather evidence benefactor w r bug really , meant evidence would tend one think communications problem trying say , clumsy way , buy theory far relates theism making predictions \( prayer , example \) , n't buy use occam 's razor cases 0 example , one could n't dismiss benefactor bug grounds simplicity one necessary explain brought 'one one process show would wrong 're saying post , seems agree , 're talking cross purposes \( 3 \) still contradiction \( 1 \) sums may help b benefactor , b bug , arrives account \( 1 \) implies p \( b b \) 1 assuming p \( bb \) 0 , 's either benefactor bug responsible bucks arrive , , p \( b b \) p \( b \) p \( b \) p \( b \) p \( b \) 1 \( 3 \) implies p \( b \) 0 p \( b \) 0 , n't meant p \( b \) 0 5 p \( b \) 0 5 , necessarily new observation \( 've already seen \) change estimates trying say \( , clumsy way \) would wrong assign 0 probability either 's precisely use razor case gods gods one class hypothesis \( many others \) belonging set hypotheses one necessary explain something otherwise would satisfactorily explained thrown retained grounds non rational preference , science statistics alternatively , one could chuck retain lot , grounds answer ca n't known , probability estimates effectively useless , equal \( agnosticism weak atheism \) set filled universe caused x , x gods , pink unicorns , nothing , etc observation tends one conclusion exactly point making , think n't throw , contrary assertion people , simon , think excellent science sole point n't observations directly contradict hypothesis h \( e x p \( x h \) 0 \) cause p \( h \) go zero finite number observations case get throw hypotheses exactly point , though may unclear said opposite , guess source confusion merely trying illustrate i'm trying say correct say absence evidence sometimes evidence absence , hold true , perhaps , versions theism n't true hold discarded using razor contrary , hold exactly discarded using razor see post branch thread seem guilty contradiction accuse razor holds gods , holds like hypotheses means 're assigning p \( x h \) 0 , though 've already established 's correct sum \( p \( x h \) \) 1 simply put , anyone claims viable proof existence non existence gods , whether inductive , best mistaken , worst barking mad luckily make claim , specifically said much numerous occasions would n't constructing strawman , would frank \? although n't , course , rule barking mad case \( could barking mad spare time , apologies et al \) think miss point say something evidence hypothesis , n't imply observation said something necessarily hypothesis , reducing estimate p \( h data \) zero reduces quantity , 's still evidence h , got i'm talking case 0 're clearly correct ! 0 i'm constructing strawman \( though 's certainly possible 've misunderstood 're saying \) however , standards , system says 0 , gods highly unlikely , ! 0 gods dismissed using razor , system inductive proof gods either n't exist , unnecessary explain phenomena experience , systems \( including prove gods exist \) always contain fallacy upon close examination 's 're saying , please put straight frank o'dwyer 'i'm hatching that' odwyer sse ie hens , evelyn conlon
christen astro ocis temple edu \( carl christensen \) subject asimov stamp organization temple university lines 19 nntp posting host astro ocis temple edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 battin cyclops iucf indiana edu \( laurence gene battin \) writes apart suggestion appeared letters column skeptical inquirer recently , mention possible asimov commemorative stamp \? idea n't followed , anyone know needs done get happen \? think great idea start petition something \? believe 's 10 year period time death person commemorative stamp broken lyndon johnson \( think \) held awhile course , still start elvis stamp ages things really moved got past 10 year anniversary death carl christensen , , , dept computer science christen astro ocis temple edu temple university curiouser curiouser ! lc ``` philadelphia , pa usa
kcochran nyx cs du edu \( keith justified ancient cochran \) subject \? x disclaimer nyx public access unix system run university denver denver community university neither control responsibility opinions users organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept lines 15 article horus ap mchp sni de frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes article 1993apr22 nuscc nus sg cmtan iss nus sg \( tan chade meng dan \) writes 'll leaving june 's i'm going back university alt atheism banned \( stupid theist intolerance \) sad n't anybody idea circumvent problem \? frank 's solution deleted access telnet , contact nyx cs du edu 's public access unix system , completly free , need access verifiable form id \( think requires copy picture , check , \) kcochran nyx cs du edu b \( 0 4 \) c e f g k \( \) r \( \) \( \) tsakc thoughts , posts , ideas , responsibility , beer , pizza ok \? \? \?
subject age reason read rushdie 's ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu \( scott sauyet \) edm 93apr20145436 gocart twisto compaq com vice ico tek com sandvik sandvik kent apple com distribution world nntp posting host wesleyan edu x news reader vms news 1 20in reply sandvik newton apple com 's message wed , 21 apr 1993 06 38 30 gmtlines 29 lines 29 sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) writes story kent , archetype finn , lives bay area , tried purchase thomas paine 's age reason man driving around , , books inc , well , place , , various places asked book , well educated american book store assistants placed asked check thriller section , said book published yet , receive book soon places assistants bluntly said n't know author , well known living author , n't keep copies books life times america , 200 years revolution similar note , good friend mine worked clerk chain bookstore several peers amazing , one woman particular customer asked autobiography benjamin franklin 's \? first question , still alive \? , fiction non fiction \? finally friend intervened , showed guy makes one wonder standards employment scott sauyet ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu
subject strong weak atheism ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu \( scott sauyet \) distribution world nntp posting host wesleyan edu x news reader vms news 1 20in reply mathew 's message wed , 21 apr 1993 12 20 32 22 lines 22 930421 rusnews w165w mantis co uk mathew writes faq ever got modified define strong atheists assert nonexistence god , assert believe nonexistence god \? word , yes mathew mathew could let us know happened , see version date possible \? try save faqs , otherwise ignore regular postings , would n't generally notice change like stay current thanks , scott
ecl psu edu \( kyle p hunter \) subject problem omnipotence organization penn state engineering computer lab lines 36 distribution usa nntp posting host psu edu summary prob w omnipotence keywords god , jesus x news reader vms news 1 24 recall discussion heard years ago went something like problem omnipotence \( least perceive \) christian god ideal potentially contradictory manifestation god truly infinite power god place limits upon \? stuff ca n't recall questions think recall correctly god \? god make \( assuming n't yet exist \) \? god always existed necessary observer bind gods potential quantum states reality \? god nothing force nature existed earliest stages universal \( \? \) creation \? god vacuum \? given great enough energy density could create god \? would make us god god something else \? stuff n't recall concerning creating god followed god self aware \? necessary god self aware \? god living entity \? god living entity \? god unchanging evolve \? comments \? post others might benefit open inquiry resulting discussion kyle
edwin subject atheism nntp posting host 47 107 76 97 organization bell northern research lines 1
kcochran nyx cs du edu \( keith justified ancient cochran \) subject go hell ! ! ! x disclaimer nyx public access unix system run university denver denver community university neither control responsibility opinions users organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept lines 16 article pharaoh cyborg bt co uk martin pharaoh cyborg bt co uk \( martin gorman \) writes jsn104 psuvm psu edu writes blashephemers ! ! ! go hell believing god ! ! ! ! prepared eternal damnation ! ! ! oh fuck actually , think 's confused i'm going hell i'm gay , becuase n't believe god \( wonder means ca n't come tammy picnic \? \) kcochran nyx cs du edu b \( 0 4 \) c e f g k \( \) r \( \) \( \) tsakc thoughts , posts , ideas , responsibility , beer , pizza ok \? \? \? i'm daddy 's
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject requests organization sgi lines 28 distribution world nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article mailer cc fsu edu , mayne pipe cs fsu edu \( william mayne \) writes article pww spac at1 59 rice edu pww spacsun rice edu \( peter walker \) writes n't church get lightning rods banned several european countries eighteenth century widely believed interfered god 's striking \? seem remember common eastern europe n't know eastern europe , according bertrand russell , writing science mysticism \( think , though could another book \) said preachers colonial boston attributed earthquake god 's wrath people putting lightning rods , preaching interference god 's deprived lightning bolts method get sinners evidently resorted measures smilies making i'm sure san francisco earthquake couple years ago , flurry traffic talk religion misc result notorious homo city fact earthquake actually road santa cruz n't seem phase jon
mangoe cs umd edu \( charley wingate \) subject little satanic lines 34 kent sandvik jon livesey made essentially response , time kent 's article gets reply agree , started one particular point time , n't know starting point copied actually happened begs question whether ever started perhaps accuracy always intention even worse , events nt written eye witness accounts \( high probability looking possible dates first gospels ready \) take account problems information forwarded , indeed makes little difference eyewitnesses people one step away \( reporters , \) said earlier , telephone metaphor innately bad , purpose game telephone contrary aims writing sorts texts \( also , would point , standards generally asserted group , distinction eyewitnesses others hollow , since nobody shown eyewitness , indeed , even shown author text \) evidence original texts either ot nt largely lost time sea errors , corrections , additions deletions case nt , evidence strongly direction r text differ low level significance reasonable assume similar situation ot , based nt model c wingate peace god , peace , strife closed sod mangoe cs umd edu yet , brothers , pray one thing tove ! mangoe marv'lous peace god
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject societally acceptable behavior organization sgi lines 21 distribution world nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article 10h news cso uiuc edu , cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) writes citation ksu ksu edu citation ksu ksu edu \( jonathan w newton \) writes article c5qgm3 dl8 news cso uiuc edu , cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) writes merely question basis morality moral ethical behavior societally acceptable behavior disagree society thinks irrelevant individual decides important n't seem right want kill , decide \? sounds though confused want think morally right jon
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject rushdie 's writings organization sgi lines 23 distribution sfnet nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article cc tut fi , a137490 lehtori cc tut fi \( aario sami \) writes bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) writes article blaze cs jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \( ken arromdee \) writes article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) writes asked counter fatwa issued 's condemnation satanic verses reason basically satanic verses rushdie took title serious matter played around anyone cares islam n't matter 's opinion , sorry say irrelevant gregg guy sounds little borg ish ! , perfectly normal behaviour vor , know \? jon
darice yoyo cc monash edu au \( fred rice \) subject yet rushdie islamic law organization monash university , melb , australia lines 11 received new information regarding issue bcci whether islamic bank etc post heading bcci look ! fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au
cmtan iss nus sg \( tan chade meng dan \) subject \? organization institute systems science , nus x newsreader tin 1 1 pl4 lines 20 boyd acsu buffalo edu \( daniel f boyd \) writes bible incredible proof christianity , n't muslims hindus convinced \? qur'an incredible proof islam , n't hindus christians convinced \? god exists , n't atheists convinced \? tan chade meng yes , sir , one question singapore cmtan iss nus sg going \? !
cmtan iss nus sg \( tan chade meng dan \) subject christianity logic \( xtian morality \) organization institute systems science , nus x newsreader tin 1 1 pl4 lines 59 article 4949 eastman uucp dps nasa kodak com writes simple logic arguments folly read bible see jesus made fools tried trick logic rely simply reason never know heard arguement xtian friend similar christianity higher logic athiest like u able understand atheist logic low thru faith understand higher logic god asked , higher logic \? answer , n't know , posting highlights one worst things xtainity abundantly clear atheists believe illogical irrational tactics , therefore disregard logic rationality altogether silly excuses ones , u trust science , science invented man ! , goes show weakness religion country xtainity still rapidly growing , never try convert people appealing brains senses know would fruitless act , given irrational nature faith would wait person distress , would comfort addict emotional never life met person converted xtainity 's reasonable rationality place xtainity \( see xtian arguement reason \) unenlightened one tan chade meng wise man tells wife understands singapore cmtan iss nus sg fool tries prove unenlightened one tan chade meng wise man tells wife understands singapore cmtan iss nus sg fool tries prove
decay cbnewsj cb att com \( dean kaflowitz \) subject thoughts organization distribution na lines 28 article kip netcom com , madhaus netcom com \( maddi hausmann \) writes healta saturn wwc edu \( tammy r healy \) writes tammy see , maddi , trimmed ! healy well , 're going practice , 're getting hang soon 're going give new nickname try size tammy lucky seven healy tammy pass healy tammy r us healy tammy learning healy r us thing trademarked n't know charles lazarus dead alive , 'd careful , name like lazarus , might rise start lawsuit dean kaflowitz \( knew architect , swear , employed design signs toys r us kids r us stores signs things stick store big pole seen highway job hours school studying architect tell move pole ten feet closer highway \)
kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) subject thoughts organization case western reserve university lines 24 distribution na nntp posting host b64635 student cwru edu article cbnewsj cb att com decay cbnewsj cb att com \( dean kaflowitz \) writes r us thing trademarked n't know charles lazarus dead alive , 'd careful , name like lazarus , might rise start lawsuit r us trademarked , backwards r us , believe speaking proofs god , funniest one ever seen term paper handed freshman wrote , god must exist , would n't mean make believe exists really n't ! argument really much worse ontological proofs existence god provided anselm descartes , among others \? raymond 5 , 000 b c philosophical fantasies
kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) subject 27 fundamental beliefs sda organization case western reserve university lines 21 nntp posting host b64635 student cwru edu article healta 183 saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu \( tammy r healy \) writes asked post list sda church 's basic beliefs sda church always reluctant formalize creed usual sense word however , powers church deemed neccessary publish summary basic sda beliefs may ask afraid \? speaking proofs god , funniest one ever seen term paper handed freshman wrote , god must exist , would n't mean make believe exists really n't ! argument really much worse ontological proofs existence god provided anselm descartes , among others \? raymond 5 , 000 b c philosophical fantasies
g newcastle ac uk \( graeme \) subject cults vs religions \? nntp posting host newton organization university newcastle upon tyne , uk , ne1 7ru lines 12 jgreen trumpet calpoly edu \( james thomas green \) writes religion cult power belong actually , 're bull shit graeme , g uk ac ncl hitler planet , galactic shape changing psychopath john , tomorrow people , hitler 's last secret
decay cbnewsj cb att com \( dean kaflowitz \) subject go hell ! ! ! organization distribution na lines 28 article healta 176 saturn wwc edu , healta saturn wwc edu \( tammy r healy \) writes article 1993apr25 mnemosyne cs du edu kcochran nyx cs du edu \( keith justified ancient cochran \) writes kcochran nyx cs du edu \( keith justified ancient cochran \) subject go hell ! ! ! date sun , 25 apr 93 02 05 46 gmt article pharaoh cyborg bt co uk martin pharaoh cyborg bt co uk \( martin gorman \) writes jsn104 psuvm psu edu writes blashephemers ! ! ! go hell believing god ! ! ! ! prepared eternal damnation ! ! ! oh fuck actually , think 's confused i'm going hell i'm gay , becuase n't believe god \( wonder means ca n't come tammy picnic \? \) course come said posters invited n't put homosexual clause bring join party ! ! ! ca n't imagine dean objecting , either knowing keith , expect 'll bring leather accessories better oil well leather cracks dries dean kaflowitz
i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) subject poisoning well \( islamic genocide \) organization technical university braunschweig , germany lines 46 article horus ap mchp sni de frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes article i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) writes way , 's consider theist 7 points , consisting rhetorical fallacy , unsupported claims , falsehoods deleted wonder n't see detail claim good remember answered statement theist another correspondent member denomination either stupidity attempt trick answer unlike rest arguments mr , little patience people tell believe , call liar disagree i'm position know believe , say agnostic extremely wary way use words like case , broader definitions gods used persons considered others theists pointed post use one use definitions seems rest assumption moral objective absolute buzz words fond , everybody know , need define exactly user shown recently , easiest way ask definitions course , free speculate motives objecting seeming irrational bigotry wish , flaws point arguments stand merits since one seeing , many correspondents point flaws reasoning respectively discussing , ca n't say impressed benedikt
decay cbnewsj cb att com \( dean kaflowitz \) subject thoughts organization distribution na lines 40 article blaze cs jhu edu , arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \( ken arromdee \) writes article w briggs cc utas edu au w briggs postoffice utas edu au \( william briggs \) writes n't jc carpenter \? anyway 's beside point think fact compelling jc fulfilling prophecies prophecies include getting killed agonizing possible way nonsense think lot agonizing ways get killed fatal cancer , instance anyone else \? maybe make list actually , find stuff jc carpenter interesting independent source assertion , christian bible \? record anything built \? table , house , stairs \( norm abrams says real test carpenter 's skill building stairs hand tools \) leave plans behind , say kitchen counters \? build cross \? , use pressure treated lumber \? gotta use pressure treated anywhere wood meets concrete , holds better anyway outdoor applications keep seeing bumper stickers say boss jewish carpenter , 're always back ford escorts , real carpenter 's apprentice would probably drive pickup , i'm verification really carpenter dean kaflowitz sometimes like get away shack catfish ai n't pretty n't talk back good friends sure
decay cbnewsj cb att com \( dean kaflowitz \) subject thoughts organization distribution na lines 10 article 1993apr26 daffy cs wisc edu , mccullou snake2 cs wisc edu \( mark mccullough \) writes article blaze cs jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \( ken arromdee \) writes think lot agonizing ways get killed fatal cancer , instance anyone else \? maybe make list dying blood clot bad place kidney stones complete
decay cbnewsj cb att com \( dean kaflowitz \) subject thoughts organization distribution na lines 26 article kmr4 1718 po cwru edu , kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) writes article cbnewsj cb att com decay cbnewsj cb att com \( dean kaflowitz \) writes r us thing trademarked n't know charles lazarus dead alive , 'd careful , name like lazarus , might rise start lawsuit r us trademarked , backwards r us , believe yup , think 're right mistake , make r backwards using computer keyboard \? 'll bet gods know \( alt atheism , \) tell , r start coming backwards type , 'll become believer \( 's asking miracles asked miracle , 'd ask real miracle , like pat buchanan become closet drag queen well maybe would n't miraculous , think 'd look fabulous feather hat like mia farrow wore \) dean kaflowitz
i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) subject 's mary 's fault ! organization technical university braunschweig , germany lines 67 article w briggs cc utas edu au w briggs postoffice utas edu au \( william briggs \) writes \( deletion \) lucky baby n't obvious ! could see mary gets pregnant wedlock save face joseph say god got pregnant baby turns deformed , even worse , ! 'd lot explaining \) points guys , \( oops guy gal use term guy \) sort conspiracy ever occurred since , \( mean must dozen times past two thousand years would time born guy running around switzerland claims conceived similarly mother says father said bit surprised anyway , lot messiahs , many similar story birth death list messiahs could quite interesting would n't feel bad turned wrong conception christ via god \? imagine faces mary asks 've ever child would wonder omnipotent god pulls stunts instead providing evidence everyone check whole question absurd would n't feel bad 'd find stones sentient , stepped life \? would n't feel bad 'd see proof jesus plot satan \? wanted save image could done joseph planned first place quite wedding equally quite divorce , \( think quite easy jewish law \) regard would pretty dumb think conspiracy like one 've outlined bringing attention \( messiah appearances like royal scandals zero ad israel , \( see part acts discussing growth new church , \( e one wise guy said leave alone says nothing stop n't anyway \) \) 've forgotten pride factor n't , \( church mean \) argument fallacy like thanks reading far end letter religions claim wo n't contain eternal truth christianity since old religions wonder find old religions would last roll twelve dice calculate chance result argue must something special result event chance 1 \( 6 12 \) could hardly happen chance feel elevated participated letting special event take place benedikt
marshall csugrad cs vt edu \( kevin marshall \) subject thoughts christians organization virginia tech computer science dept , blacksburg , va lines 20 nntp posting host csugrad cs vt edu bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) writes robert wrote rb , 's praying young preying young comes rb later , bright eyed little altar boy finds rb priest really wears statement atheist cause way , surely 's intended wit surely intended wit way , atheist cause referring , bill \? kevin marshall computer science department virginia tech marshall csugrad cs vt edu blacksburg , virginia \( 703 \) 232 6529
perry dsinc com \( jim perry \) subject room metaphor \? organization decision support inc lines 18 nntp posting host bozo dsinc com article 27 augustana edu augustana edu \( lloyd baker \) writes want response giving pros cons metaphorical religious language could atheist accept view without giving believes \? could atheist accept usage religious literature tradition viewed metaphorical way \? course essentially homer , concepts fate , luck , free \) however , remains question whether religious literature say christianity particularly good set metaphors world today 's also entirely unclear , quite unlikely , one could take contemporary religion like divorce potential carries many cases jim perry perry dsinc com decision support , inc , matthews nc opinions nominal fee ,
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject \? \( political atheists \? \) organization sgi lines 62 distribution world nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article gap caltech edu , keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes pardon \? trying apply human terms non humans \? 's right basically stating morality deal humans , humans sentient enough moral \( , say morality deal intentions \? \) never said humans beings sufficiently sentient intentions fact , explicitly said perfectly happy consider animals capable forming intentions objecting considering programmed instinctive behaviour moral significance , since , seems , behaviour involve intention think even someone conscious alternative , prevent behavior moral i'm sure think , say trying convince \? think moral act moral whether implementor thinks 's point point whether implementor thinks issue whether thinking produces opinion opinion b , whether thinking takes place , period 've offered , four times , think , accept definition allow ascribe moral orbital motion planets hmm perhaps ascribe could say many human actions natural thus n't follow natural morality since humans part nature , human actions natural perhaps 're going throw definition natural allow us describe actions natural natural , definition \? death surround mating rituals , animals n't kill \( within species \) often , \? sure , multiple posters show sharks , example , eat wounded sharks 've personally seen cats eat newborn kind denial \? people give example example , go air week , pop claiming never happened 's strange n't animals kill \? see mean go write tailor made faq mr schneider \? jon
aero org \( gregory c \) subject go hell ! ! ! organization aerospace corporation , el segundo , ca lines 9 nntp posting host aerospace aero org summary ! hell n't anyone noticed \? consensual reality special case
i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) subject islam scientific predictions \( genocide caused atheism \) organization technical university braunschweig , germany lines 46 article 1993apr25 1190 monu6 cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au \( fred rice \) writes \( deletion \) \( god \) one created night , day , sun moon travelling orbit motion \( qur'an 33 \) \( deletion \) well , certainly different , looks translation found everything way , surprised hear night day move orbit thought , translations refer latter two objects orbit , bucaille 's translation seems indicate night day travelling orbit perhaps understood one looks earth 's reference frame reference frame , day night would appear orbit earth \( travelling east west \) \( reference frame earth still \) well , yes , belongs group , interpretation found everything however , allowing form interpretation reduces information text zero way , checked quote think lines preceding quoted interesting 21 32 mountains set earth order earth 21 33 skies \( heavens \? \) referred well supported lines given 21 34 edition maybe meant \? 's possibility sun travels orbit without saying earth , , sounds geocentric see find still geocentric sun moon move earth sounds geocentric benedikt
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject cruel \( political atheists \? \) organization sgi lines 20 distribution world nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article gap caltech edu , keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) writes kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) writes , shows painful execution considered cruel unusual punishment shows cruel used constitution refer whether punishment causes physical pain rather , must different meaning n't think although forms execution painful \( electric chair looks particularly \) , think pain relatively short lived drawing , hand , looks painful , victim would n't die right away \( 'd bleed death , 'd imagine \) , integral pain x time \? get wet ever , get cut power saw i'm quick \? jon
mathew mathew mantis co uk subject alt atheism faq atheist resources summary books , addresses , music anything related atheism keywords faq , atheism , books , music , fiction , addresses , contacts expires thu , 27 may 1993 14 07 43 gmt distribution world organization mantis consultants , cambridge uk supersedes mantis co uk lines 303 archive name atheism resources alt atheism archive name resources last modified 5 april 1993 version 1 1 atheist resources addresses atheist organizations usa freedom religion foundation darwin fish bumper stickers assorted atheist paraphernalia available freedom religion foundation us write , p box 750 , madison , wi telephone \( 608 \) 256 8900 evolution designs evolution designs sell darwin fish 's fish symbol , like ones christians stick cars , feet word darwin written inside deluxe 3d plastic fish 4 95 us write evolution designs , laurel canyon 4 , north hollywood , ca people san francisco bay area get darwin fish lynn gold try mailing netcom com net people go lynn directly , price 4 95 per fish set free atheist stickers , shirts books write set free , p box 192 , garden grove , ca american atheist press aap publish various atheist books critiques bible , lists biblical contradictions , one book bible handbook w p ball g w foote american atheist press 372 pp isbn 0 26 4 , 2nd edition , 1986 bible contradictions , absurdities , atrocities , immoralities contains ball , foote bible contradicts , aap based king james version bible write american atheist press , p box , austin , tx cameron road , austin , tx telephone \( 512 \) 458 1244 fax \( 512 \) 467 prometheus books sell books including 's holy horrors \( see \) write 700 east amherst street , buffalo , new york telephone \( 716 \) 837 2475 alternate address \( may newer older \) prometheus books , 59 glenn drive , buffalo , ny 14228 2197 african americans humanism organization promoting black secular humanism uncovering history black publish quarterly newsletter , examiner write norm r allen , jr , african americans humanism , p box 664 , buffalo , ny united kingdom press association national secular society 88 high street 702 holloway road london n1 london 071 226 071 272 british humanist association south place ethical society 14 lamb 's conduit passage conway hall london red lion square 071 430 london fax 071 430 071 831 national secular society publish , monthly magazine founded 1881 germany ibka e v bund der und postfach 880 , 1000 berlin 41 germany ibka publish journal miz \( und zur zeit journal der und ibka e v \) miz , postfach 880 , 1000 berlin 41 germany atheist books , write , b der postfach , 3000 hannover 1 germany telephone 0511 books fiction thomas santa claus compromise short story ultimate proof santa exists characters events fictitious similarity living dead gods uh , well walter miller , jr one gem post atomic doomsday novel monks spent lives copying saint , filling sheets paper ink leaving white lines letters edgar davy post atomic doomsday novel set clerical states church , example , forbids anyone produce , describe use substance containing atoms philip k dick philip k dick dick wrote many philosophical thought provoking short stories novels stories bizarre times , wrote mainly sf , wrote people , truth religion rather technology although often believed met sort god , remained sceptical amongst novels , following relevance galactic pot healer fallible alien deity summons group earth women remote planet raise giant cathedral beneath oceans deity begins demand faith earthers , pot healer joe unable comply polished , ironic amusing novel maze death noteworthy description technology based religion hero searches hidden mysteries gnostic christianity reality fired brain pink laser beam unknown possibly divine origin accompanied dogmatic atheist friend assorted odd characters divine invasion god invades earth making young woman pregnant returns another star system unfortunately terminally ill , must assisted dead man whose brain wired 24 hour easy listening music margaret atwood 's tale story based premise us congress mysteriously assassinated , fundamentalists quickly take charge nation set right book diary woman 's life tries live new christian women 's right property revoked , bank accounts closed sinful luxuries outlawed , radio used readings bible crimes punished doctors performed legal abortions old world hunted hanged atwood 's writing style difficult get used first , tale grows chilling goes various authors bible somewhat dull rambling work often criticized however , probably worth reading , 'll know fuss exists many different versions , make sure get one true version books non fiction peter de rosa christ , bantam press , 1988 although de rosa seems christian even catholic history papal immoralities , , fallacies etc \( german translation die des , , 1989 \) michael martin atheism philosophical justification , temple university press , philadelphia , usa detailed scholarly justification atheism contains outstanding appendix defining terminology usage \( necessarily \) tendentious area argues negative atheism \( e non belief existence god \( \) \) also positive atheism \( belief non existence god \( \) \) includes great refutations challenging arguments god particular attention paid refuting theists swinburne 541 pages isbn 0 642 3 \( hardcover paperback also available \) case christianity , temple university press comprehensive critique christianity , considers best contemporary christianity \( ultimately \) demonstrates incoherent 273 pages isbn 0 767 5 james turner without god , without creed , johns hopkins university press , baltimore , md , usa origins unbelief america examines way unbelief \( whether agnostic atheistic \) became mainstream alternative world view period 1900 , considering france britain emphasis american , particularly new england developments neither religious history atheism , without god , without creed , rather , intellectual history fate single idea , belief god exists 316 pages isbn \( hardcover \) 0 x \( paper \) 0 4 george \( editor \) great thoughts , books , new york , usa dictionary quotations different kind , concentrating statements writings , explicitly implicitly , present person 's philosophy world view includes obscure \( often suppressed \) opinions many people popular observations , traces way various people expressed twisted idea centuries quite number quotations derived cardiff 's great men think religion views religion 490 pages isbn \( paper \) 0 345 x richard swinburne existence god \( revised edition \) , , oxford book second volume began coherence theism \( 1977 \) concluded faith reason \( 1981 \) work , swinburne attempts construct series inductive arguments existence god arguments , somewhat tendentious rely upon late 20th century western christian values aesthetics god supposedly simple conceived , decisively rejected mackie 's miracle theism revised edition existence god , swinburne includes appendix makes somewhat incoherent attempt rebut mackie j l mackie miracle theism , oxford \( \) volume contains comprehensive review principal arguments existence god ranges classical philosophical positions descartes , anselm , berkeley , et al , moral arguments newman , kant , recent classical swinburne also addresses positions push concept god beyond realm rational , kierkegaard , kung philips , well replacements god 's book delight read less better written martin 's works , direct compared hand waving swinburne james holy horrors illustrated history religious murder madness , prometheus books looks religious persecution ancient times present day christians library congress catalog card number 89 1990 norm r allen , jr african american humanism anthology see listing african americans humanism gordon stein anthology atheism rationalism , prometheus books anthology covering wide range subjects , including 'the devil , evil morality' 'the history comprehensive bibliography edmund cohen mind bible believer , prometheus books study people become christian fundamentalists , effect george h smith atheism case god , prometheus books describes positions atheism , theism agnosticism reviews many arguments used favour existence god concludes assessment impact god people 's lives net resources 's small mail based archive server mantis co uk carries archives old alt atheism moderated articles assorted files information , send mail archive server mantis co uk saying help send atheism index mail back reply mathew
mathew mathew mantis co uk subject alt atheism faq overview new readers summary hi please read post keywords faq , atheism expires thu , 27 may 1993 14 08 03 gmt distribution world organization mantis consultants , cambridge uk supersedes mantis co uk lines 146 archive name atheism overview alt atheism archive name overview last modified 20 april 1993 version 1 3 overview welcome alt atheism alt atheism moderated first series regular postings aimed new readers newsgroups many groups nature noticed new readers often come questions , mis statements misconceptions post net addition , people often request information posted time time order try cut , alt atheism groups series five regular postings following titles 1 alt atheism faq overview new readers 2 alt atheism faq introduction atheism 3 alt atheism faq frequently asked questions \( faq \) 4 alt atheism faq constructing logical argument 5 alt atheism faq atheist resources article number 1 please read numbers 2 3 posting others entirely optional new usenet , may also find helpful read newsgroup news announce newusers articles titled primer work usenet community , answers frequently asked questions usenet hints writing style usenet particularly relevant questions concerning news works best asked news newusers questions unable find articles listed , see finding stuff section credits files could written without assistance many readers alt atheism alt atheism moderated particular , 'd like thank following people cs cmu edu \( karl kluge \) perry dsinc com \( jim perry \) cc ncsu edu \( wayne aiken \) gdr bath ac uk \( toby kelsey \) cs hut fi \( jyrki \) geoff arnold east sun com \( geoff arnold \) sics se \( \) kmldorf utdallas edu \( george kimeldorf \) quads uchicago edu \( greg \) arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \( ken arromdee \) madhaus netcom com \( maddi hausmann \) j5j psuvm psu edu \( john johnson \) dgraham bmers30 bnr ca \( douglas graham \) mayne open cs fsu edu \( william mayne \) ajr bigbird hri com \( andy rosen \) ira uka de \( \) unix1 tcd ie \( bryan \) lippard ccit arizona edu \( james j lippard \) rigel tamu edu \( baum \) phoenix princeton edu \( york h \) schroede sdsc edu \( wayne schroeder \) baldwin navy mil \( j baldwin \) unh edu \( dana \) dempsey kodak com \( richard c dempsey \) jmunch hertz , elee calpoly edu \( john david munch \) pdc dcs ed ac uk \( paul crowley \) rz mips ac \( richard zach \) math mit edu \( tim chow \) simon dcs warwick ac uk \( simon clippingdale \) cc helsinki fi \( pekka \) countless others 've forgotten articles free truly free may copy distribute anyone wish however , please send changes corrections author , please post copies articles alt atheism nobody good multiple versions document floating around network finding stuff faq files somewhere news system suggestions ca n't find 1 check newsgroup alt atheism look subject lines starting alt atheism faq 2 check newsgroup news answers subject lines n't find anything steps 1 2 , news system n't set correctly , may wish tell system administrator problem 3 anonymous ftp access , connect rtfm mit edu 18 70 0 226 go directory pub usenet alt atheism , 'll find latest versions faq files ftp way copying files networked computers need help using getting started ftp , send e mail mail server rtfm mit edu send usenet news answers ftp list faq body 4 sites also carry news answers postings article introduction news answers newsgroup carries list sites article posted regularly news answers 5 n't ftp , send mail mail server rtfm mit edu consisting following lines send usenet news answers finding sources send usenet alt atheism faq send usenet alt atheism introduction send usenet alt atheism logic send usenet alt atheism resources 5 \( resort \) send mail mail server mantis co uk consisting following lines send atheism faq faq txt send atheism faq logic txt send atheism faq intro txt send atheism faq resource txt poor overworked modems try send copy files 's stuff , interesting commands try help send atheism index 6 \( last resort \) mail mathew mantis co uk , post article newsgroup asking get faq files 've tried methods 've failed 's nice clutter newsgroup people 's mailboxes requests files 's better posting without reading faq , though ! instance , people whose email addresses get mangled transit n't ftp probably need assistance obtaining faq files mathew
markp elvis wri com \( mark pundurs \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality nntp posting host elvis wri com organization wolfram research , inc lines 26 sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) writes article markp , markp \( mark pundurs \) wrote take lsd , perception reality come , perceptions 've never taken lsd , read strange lifes times heights culture something usually profound way lsd mentioned first trip changed view world words taking lsd would change reference frames would indicate deep changes due let us say brain temporarily indeed change frames leads statement solid reference frame lsd modified relative view much crowd probably pre existing lives jumbo 'new change experienced lsd gain knowledge n't enjoy lsd twisted perception mark pundurs resemblance opinions wolfram research , inc purely coincidental
edm twisto compaq com \( ed mccreary \) subject genocide caused theism evidence \? reply bobbe vice 's message 25 apr 93 23 26 20 gmt organization compaq computer corp rice edu tekgen bv tek com lines 11 25 apr 93 23 26 20 gmt , bobbe vice \( robert beauchaine 6086 59 323 lp \) said examples luther 's insane rantings deleted gee , i'm sooooo surprised n't teach part ideology high schools today ed mccreary , edm twisto compaq com , laughter , would tao \( \) ' \( \)
mam mouse cmhnet org \( mike mcangus \) subject thoughts christians organization cat mat x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 19 wed , 21 apr 1993 08 16 14 gmt sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) wrote article darkside osrhe uoknor edu , bil okcforum osrhe edu conner 's questioning afterlife reason many joined early xian church well , remember jacoby 's talks cite one source i'm sure christians read book addition social experiences raised educated lutheran , lot christian friends , even played two christian rock bands ! mean 's \? mike mcangus truth still truth mam mouse cmhnet org even choose ignore \( old sig viruses still best \)
mam mouse cmhnet org \( mike mcangus \) subject death penalty \( political atheists \? \) organization cat mat x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 37 tue , 20 apr 1993 04 32 59 gmt bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) wrote fascinating atheists argue abortion , defend homosexuality means population control , insist values biological condemn war capital punishment according benedikt , something contardictory , cannot exist , case means atheists suppose atheists talking \? , abortion choice homosexual sex choice people involved war sometimes necessary leaves capital punishment oppose capital mistakes happen \( yes thread went around resolution recently \) far control , think contraception education best courses action would like understand atheist object war \( excellent means controlling population growth \) , capital punishment , i'm sorry logic escapes 's making assumption atheists specific mindset capital punishment , questioned , propriety killing punishment \? basis \? mistakes happen bill , could victim mistake mike mcangus truth still truth mam mouse cmhnet org even choose ignore \( old sig viruses still best \)
mam mouse cmhnet org \( mike mcangus \) subject americans evolution organization cat mat x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 53 tue , 20 apr 1993 04 49 18 gmt bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) wrote robert singleton \( bobs thnext mit edu \) wrote sure n't mutually exclusive , lends weight \( e increases running estimates posterior probability \) atheist 's pitch partition , thus necessarily reduces quantity theist 's pitch `divine component' falls prey 's razor , phenomenon satisfactorily explained without , independent evidence component detail next post occam 's razor law nature , way analyzing argument , even , interesting often 's cited end seems odd religion simultaneously condemned primitive , simple minded unscientific , anti intellectual childish , yet condemned complex \( occam 's razor \) , scientific explanation things much , apparently , simpler cute characterization bill however , inconsistency two statements even one believes religion primitive , simple minded unscientific , anti intellectual childish , one still hold view religion also adds unnecessary level complexity explanation ideas n't complex occam 's razor , add unnecessarily overall complexity description non essential , know \? think non essential part explanatory system one adds predictive capability system considering even scientists n't fully comprehend science due complexity diversity maybe william occam performed , kept frontal lobe thrown everything else away huh \? confusing , i'm sure one straighten tough watch , freudian slip showing mike mcangus truth still truth mam mouse cmhnet org even choose ignore \( old sig viruses still best \)
mam mouse cmhnet org \( mike mcangus \) subject christian morality organization cat mat x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 36 20 apr 93 13 38 34 gmt dps nasa kodak com \( dan schaertel , , , \) wrote article vice ico tek com , bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) writes yet still believer god concerned disposition \? beneath provide evidence would require believe \? evidence personality , given god , would find compelling \? fact god could cause believe anything wants think minute would rather someone love made love , wanted love responsibility love god take step toward promises , look doubt dispute givin sincere effort many others described tried find god saying efforts sincere \? effort put , outward inward change perceive 's sincerely searching agnostic atheist supposed even search turns nothing \? simple logic arguments folly read bible see jesus made fools tried trick logic ability reason spec creation yet think ultimate rely simply reason never know learn must accept n't know accept n't know \? mean must believe god order believe god \? mike mcangus truth still truth mam mouse cmhnet org even choose ignore \( old sig viruses still best \)
mam mouse cmhnet org \( mike mcangus \) subject hard soft strong weak kiss ! organization cat mat x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 19 20 apr 93 08 31 07 gmt timmbake mcl ucsb edu \( bake timmons \) wrote mccullou whipple cs wisc edu writes writing someone else , probably like , seem soft atheist sorry flamage get back using terms strong atheist weak atheist rather hard atheist soft atheist imagine future discussions newbies confusion multiplication descriptions rest deleted mike mcangus truth still truth mam mouse cmhnet org even choose ignore \( old sig viruses still best \)
mathew mathew mantis co uk subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization mantis consultants , cambridge uk x newsreader rusnews v1 02 lines 33 arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \( ken arromdee \) writes simple take physics books , start looking statements say objective physics doubt find might find statements objective length , objective location , objective physics \? perhaps different understanding physics ca n't measure anything objectively , answers get physics n't objective either 's mean say 's objective physics sure , agree \( say \) f r 2 , 's maths 's physics relate real world , ca n't objectively , 're stuck \( course , displays blatant bias towards applied science even theoretical physics gets applied models real world situations , based real world observations \) \( consider , instance , speed light vacuum invariant sounds awful lot like objective speed light vacuum \) 's axiom 's invariant two us measure , 'll get different answers yes , call experimental error , 's really error conventional sense fact , n't get , 's error \) could argue value c objective , within value 'd call rather odd usage word objective , opens way statements like murder objectively wrong people , within 1 total population mathew
mathew mathew mantis co uk subject burden proof organization mantis consultants , cambridge uk x newsreader rusnews v1 02 lines 20 watson sce carleton ca \( stephen watson \) writes kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) writes article healta 171 saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu \( tammy r healy \) writes fbi officials said cult leader david koresh may forced followers remain flames closed koresh 's armed guard may injected many 24 children poison quiet fbi proof yet \? ! ask \? quoting fbi official ask fbi \? 're lying cover , maybe 're telling truth 24 children , course , killed lone second story window , fired eight bullets space two seconds mathew
mathew mathew mantis co uk subject cults vs religions \? organization mantis consultants , cambridge uk x newsreader rusnews v1 02 lines 10 mangoe cs umd edu \( charley wingate \) writes media , religion cult relative connotations government terrorist group yes , form charley anarchist \? , true words spoken jest mathew
mathew mathew mantis co uk subject gulf war peace niks organization mantis consultants , cambridge uk x newsreader rusnews v1 02 lines 8 mccullou cs wisc edu \( mark mccullough \) writes seem agreeing soldiers job best could , following orders proof positive people beyond satire mathew
mathew mathew mantis co uk subject atoms real \? \( 2000 years blah blah blah \) organization mantis consultants , cambridge uk x newsreader rusnews v1 02 lines 30 kempmp phoenix oulu fi \( petri pihko \) writes mathew \( mathew mantis co uk \) wrote difference chemist someone taught chemistry , say , cambridge university \? put like , ca n't answer originally pointing attitude seemed \( n't know really \) chemists tend ignore kinds effects 're important , yes scientists otherwise science would never get anywhere original posting stated chemistry , common ignore atomic interactions , hang atomic interactions general specific ones deemed unimportant like gravitational interactions ions , small 're drowned electrostatic effects , revolution teaching methods last four years \? perhaps revolution yet reach cambridge \( , 'll get flamed sure \) \) oh , probably still make people memorize equations ir spectra maybe decades 'll discover revolutionary data book technique bitter twisted , mathew
turpin cs utexas edu \( russell turpin \) subject history texts \( ancient references christianity \) organization cs dept , university texas austin lines 14 nntp posting host saltillo cs utexas edu summary believe maharishi title wrote diaries followers maharishi , formerly oregon , historical evidence article 1 p00261 psilink com robert knowles p00261 psilink com writes confusing bhagwan \( sp \? \) maharishi mahesh yogi chance \? believe maharishi \( someone please correct wrong \) thus , maharishi different person maharishi mahesh , russell
organization penn state university john johnson j5j psuvm psu edu subject 2000 years , say christian morality horus ap mchp sni de sandvik sandvik kent apple com horus ap mchp sni de lines 63 article horus ap mchp sni de , frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) says specifically , 'd like know relativism concludes two people grotesquely disagree \( \) right \( b \) one wrong , sometimes \( though perhaps rarely \) pretty good idea \( c \) one wrong , never information , make best guess really must make decision \( \) idea right moral judgement meaningless \( implying whether peace better war , e g , meaningless question , need discussed correct answer \) \( e \) something else short , positive assertion would nice hope tell , \( b \) \( c \) actually predicated assumption values real statements like ca n't consistently derive relativist assumption values n't part objective reality relativist would like answer question , way phrase question makes unanswerable concepts right wrong \( correct incorrect true false \) belong domain rather moral questions makes sense ask moral position right wrong , although legitimate ask good \( better another position \) let illustrate point looking psychological derivatives epistemology ethics perception motivation , respectively one certainly ask right \( correct , true , \) wrong \( incorrect , false , \) makes little sense ask motive true false hand , strange ask whether morally good evil , one certainly ask question motives therefore , suggested answers \( \) \( c \) simply ca n't considered assume judge correctness moral judgment problem \( \) double agree first part \( rightness moral position meaningless question \) , reasons stated irrelevant alleged implication \( implication \) one cannot feel peace better war certainly make value judgments \( bad , better , best \) without asserting correctness position sorry lengthy dismissal \( \) \( \) short \( e \) answer two individuals grotesquely disagree moral issue , neither right \( correct \) wrong \( incorrect \) simply hold different moral values \( feelings \) john johnson \( j5j psuvm psu edu \) department psychology penn state campus penn state responsible behavior ruthless , avoidance another sort getting drunk picking bar ladies writing metaphysics part life r
swf elsegundoca ncr com \( stan friesen \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization ncr teradata database business unit lines 74 swf another indirect post via dan article 1993apr20 asl dl nec com , duffy asl dl nec com \( joseph duffy \) writes article 1993apr17 4847 microsoft com microsoft com \( russ paul jones \) writes way theory proven false examine theory makes , try observe n't , observe things theory predicts would n't happen , evidence theory theory ca n't modified incorporate new observations , say false one handle experiment \? many types experiments prediction observed phenomena happen capable observed example , chemistry someone may predict outcome chemical reaction actually observe reaction repeatedly several problems first , discussing experimental procedures observational procedures also useful main criterion attempting verify idea using make prediction yet observations observations could result experiment , could activity occuring nature , could even observations lasting results events long past matters observations new prediction science predicting future except restricted sense secondly , also take many forms really requirement independent observers able verify results observation fossil , since qualified observer may look \( specimens museum \) also , implicit prediction future fossil finds correspond current one new fossils found often enough tested regularly many times new fossil actually conclusion made basis previous fossils unfortunately , models falsified alway peripheral model evolution \( instance , front legs rex turned tremendous muscles , rather weakly endowed previously believed \) , fact , science findings repeatable necessary sense becuase cannot go repeat original event make impossible make valid observations say biologists would go extra terrestrial life discovered could make determination process abiogenesis relatively easy sarima teradata com \( formerly tdatirv ! sarima \) stanley friesen elsegundoca ncr com sarima teradata com \( formerly tdatirv ! sarima \) stanley friesen elsegundoca ncr com
perry dsinc com \( jim perry \) subject yet rushdie islamic law organization decision support inc lines 28 nntp posting host bozo dsinc com article 1993apr25 monu6 cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au \( fred rice \) writes intent post \( remember \) show cannot argue religion \( ideology , matter \) actions claim followers look teachings religion \( principles ideology \) getting around argue islam , go qur'an bringing khomeini \( anyone else \) relevant discussing khomeini , necessarily relevant discussing islam religion sorry , fred , purposes discussion , must disagree point true sense one cannot argue communism reference chinese soviet , since represent true communism judging practical consequences islam force contend world today , precisely khomeini 's world , rushdie fatwa supporters , perhaps importantly , reaction world muslim community extremists , must look perhaps unfortunately perspective , people concerned whether islam right religion , whether qur'an could used hypothetical utopia , islam affects world around , lives might like islam gains influence consider possibilities , inconsiderable fear jim perry perry dsinc com decision support , inc , matthews nc opinions nominal fee ,
perry dsinc com \( jim perry \) subject \( inimitable rushdie \) organization decision support inc lines 31 nntp posting host bozo dsinc com article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) writes interchange deleted post mine also illustrates simply reactionary hates book n't go way avoid upsetting n't actually read \? sorry , irony remains reiterate nth time also n't agree k 's fatwa , support censorship point original thread show rushdie particularly due sympathy hold religion high esteem n't enjoy seeing things slander \( like story satanic verses \( opposed rushdie 's tsv \) \) played amusement although n't agree fatwa , apparently n't think rushdie killed book , yet think due sympathy threat furthermore base reaction solely fact wrote particular well known story true might reflect poorly absolute truth religion yet , opinion formed without recourse actually looking see story used context , accepting face value widespread propaganda book contains author 's motivations come forward recommend another book touches \( presumably plays \) religious historical material find overall presentation neutral ! jim perry perry dsinc com decision support , inc , matthews nc opinions nominal fee ,
marshall csugrad cs vt edu \( kevin marshall \) subject death penalty \( political atheists \? \) organization virginia tech computer science dept , blacksburg , va lines 46 nntp posting host csugrad cs vt edu bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) writes fascinating atheists argue abortion , defend homosexuality means population control , insist values biological condemn war capital punishment according benedikt , something contardictory , cannot exist , case means atheists suppose would like understand atheist object war \( excellent means controlling population growth \) , capital punishment , i'm sorry logic escapes first , seem assume atheists think alike atheist believe existence god opinions issues capital punishment abortion , however , vary greatly attacking views particular atheist \( benedikt , presume \) , please present argument lump us together issues , let 's start abortion personally , support abortion means population control contraception fact however , support right woman abortion , regardless personal views may , would arrogant tell individual may may body , domain legislators extend uterus 's opinion , sure many atheists theists would disagree defend homosexuality means population control , certainly defend end think homosexuals would angered hear anyone characterizing personal relationship nothing conscious effort keep population levels atheists believing values biological , idea 're talking finally , issues war capital punishment atheist object either one easily theist might seem hung supposed link atheism population control could atheist cause referring posts back \? kevin marshall computer science department virginia tech marshall csugrad cs vt edu blacksburg , virginia \( 703 \) 232 6529
marshall csugrad cs vt edu \( kevin marshall \) subject faith dogma organization virginia tech computer science dept , blacksburg , va lines 73 nntp posting host csugrad cs vt edu tgk cs toronto edu \( todd kelley \) writes faith dogma irrational faith dogma part religion responsible irrationality individuals disagree end , individual responsible irrationality individual 's belief dogmatic religion symptom irrationality noticed philosophers tend atheists \? atheists agnostics , would imagine , yes , point atheist would theoretically ill equipped study philosophy religion christian , yet persistence atheists among ranks philosophers therefore , conflict one 's religious beliefs \( lack thereof \) ability philosopher must great assert fact philosophers may non religious secondary point science , \( would practiced atheists \) contrast , built defence faith dogma opposed science practiced theists \? careful science built defence faith dogma skepticism unfortunately , wonderful little creature known theory many us believe theory evolution absolute proof theory true , believe \? makes sense \? quite bit faith involved scientist holds sacred idea beliefs change suit whatever best information available time , , , , scientist understands current beliefs deficient way well , current beliefs deficient , basically agree see difference \? science views beliefs flawed , new information obtained improve ideally , true reality , though , acknowledge scientists human scientists egos biases scientists assume particular theory true , refuse admit flaws theory ego problems whatever , proceed spend time money trying come absolute proof theory remember cold fusion \? way , n't aware mass suicide problem waco jonestown isolated incidents mass suicides far common clinton fbi would love convince would save us taxpayer lot money could really agree spent far much money waco crisis \( 7 , 500 , 000 believe \) , especially considering outcome point mass suicides u rare \( jonestown , incidentally , although bill clean \) , u far important issues address compare number u citizens died mass suicides , say , number u soldiers died one week vietnam war see point kevin marshall computer science department virginia tech marshall csugrad cs vt edu blacksburg , virginia \( 703 \) 232 6529
scharle lukasiewicz cc nd edu \( scharle \) subject rawlins debunks creationism reply scharle lukasiewicz cc nd edu \( scharle \) organization univ notre dame lines 31 article ctron news ctron com , king ctron com \( john e king \) writes kv07 iastate edu \( warren vonroeschlaub \) writes neither , webster 's ever heard francis hitchings \? please answer well known phrase paleontologist author neck giraffe quote taken pg 103 jack information , checked library congress catalog , list following books francis hitching earth magic neck giraffe , darwin went wrong psi connection world atlas mysteries tom scharle scharle room computing center scharle lukasiewicz cc nd edu university notre dame notre dame , 46556 usa
scharle lukasiewicz cc nd edu \( scharle \) subject rawlins debunks creationism reply scharle lukasiewicz cc nd edu \( scharle \) organization univ notre dame lines 54 article ursa bear com , halat pooh bears \( jim halat \) writes article usenet ucs indiana edu , bio indiana edu \( andy peters \) writes evolution , said , theory fact exactly amount existence atoms existence gravity accept existence atoms gravity fact , also accept existence evolution fact andy n't accept atoms gravity fact either extremely useful mathematical models describe physical observations make posters aptly explained atomic model gravity , , much theory gravity waves even detected , useful model describes much behavior objects thing call gravity gravity , however , fact theoretical model used talk objects behave physical environment newton thought gravity simple vector force einstein wave useful models religious requirements faith , unless course want demand factual physical entity described exactly way theory formulated talks takes great leap faith , , course , religion takes evolution different jim halat halat bear com bear stearns whatever n't kill serve annoy nyc speak accept fact earth \( , ancient greeks thought sphere , newton said , people say 's \? \) \? \( n't personal identity theoretical construct make sense memories , feelings , perceptions \) \? i'm trying think anything would fact give examples , let 's see factual criteria \( btw , criteria \? \) gravity fact fact \? newton 's einstein 's thoughts gravity fact thoughts \? n't see things asserting factual things like gravity , atoms evolution short , willing consider concept fact , i'm going , minimum , examples think facts tom scharle scharle room computing center scharle lukasiewicz cc nd edu university notre dame notre dame , 46556 usa
uxa cso uiuc edu \( steve stelter \) subject replace dog trust organization university illinois urbana lines 12 pepke dirac scri fsu edu \( eric pepke \) writes mammon trust hey , piece paper ! spend quickly god \( john carpenter 's live , \) steve lurking horror stelter uxa cso uiuc edu
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject fake god , holy lies organization sgi lines 10 distribution world nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article 1993apr22 zeus calpoly edu , dmcaloon tuba calpoly edu \( david mcaloon \) writes remember einstien said imagination greater knowledge ! ! einstein lunch fu castro street yesterday , handed fortune cookie said imagination knowledge wings , feet jon
bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) subject free moral agency nntp posting host okcforum osrhe edu organization okcforum unix users group x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 4 see , told atheist mythology , thanks proving point bill
bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) subject free moral agency nntp posting host okcforum osrhe edu organization okcforum unix users group x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 distribution na lines 30 maddi hausmann \( madhaus netcom com \) wrote know 're representing real christians \? \) bill , 're asshole get lost maddi , see still ca n't grasp obvious , devious nature , find fault argument misrepresenting \? plainly said stating christian position understand , say whether agree since point flaws position atheists invent never claimed expert anything especially christianity , made object pretty intense study years , feel qualified discuss general propositions exposed distortions misrepresentations christianity contrive rail , \( seems like classical strawman dodge said \) leaves nothing attack usual , avoid larger issues picking away insignificant stuff , find one particular thing post discuss , even tell issues \? bill
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject free moral agency organization sgi lines 26 distribution world nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article darkside osrhe uoknor edu , bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) writes many atheists posting argue parody religion create ridiculous caricature religion attack believers within religion religion ridiculous devices , establish new religion , mythology mean bobby mozumder myth \? wondered point course , erect easy target deflect away real issue atheism fictional christian moslem jew supposed believe distorted representation beliefs presented , therefore made seem fool arguments thereby made appear ludicrous mythology misrepresentations religion used fact mean bobby mozumder n't really post \? wondered , , mr conner bobby mozumder myth , performing artist , real moslem crackpot , \? know everything read minds n't tell us \? jon
kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) subject free moral agency organization case western reserve university lines 36 nntp posting host b64635 student cwru edu article darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) writes many atheists posting argue parody religion create ridiculous caricature religion attack believers within religion religion ridiculous devices , establish new religion , mythology atheism mythology sense word religious would significantly appropriate 2nd part rendered null void simple fact know several strong atheists sure others strong sense find standard concept god without meaning attempt bring meaning either results destruction viability language , internal self contradiction concept strong atheism fantasy , , exist strawman pointless weak private note jennifer fakult post may contain one following sarcasm , cycnicism , irony , humor please aware possibility allow confused thrown loop doubt , assume owners account take responsiblity confusion may result inability recognize read risk , jennifer
kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) subject free moral agency organization case western reserve university lines 29 nntp posting host b64635 student cwru edu article pj darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) writes see , told atheist mythology , thanks proving point bill considering quoted refered blank , must say ! course , correct , atheistic mythology employed board , , null void private note jennifer fakult post may contain one following sarcasm , cycnicism , irony , humor please aware possibility allow confused thrown loop doubt , assume owners account take responsiblity confusion may result inability recognize read risk , jennifer
kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) subject free moral agency organization case western reserve university lines 30 distribution na nntp posting host b64635 student cwru edu article darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) writes exposed distortions misrepresentations christianity contrive rail , \( seems like classical strawman dodge said \) leaves nothing attack usual , avoid larger issues picking away insignificant stuff , find one particular thing post discuss , even tell issues \? let guess 're psycho analyst real life , play one alt atheism right \? esp something given god \? private note jennifer fakult post may contain one following sarcasm , cycnicism , irony , humor please aware possibility allow confused thrown loop doubt , assume owners account take responsiblity confusion may result inability recognize read risk , jennifer
subject death penalty gulf war \( long \) sham cs arizona edu \( shamim zvonko mohamed \) organization u arizona cs dept , tucson lines 44 article 1993apr22 daffy cs wisc edu mccullou snake2 cs wisc edu \( mark mccullough \) writes article 37501 optima cs arizona edu sham cs arizona edu \( shamim zvonko mohamed \) writes bullshit ! ! ! gulf massacre , 7 ordnance used smart rest 's 93 regular , dumb ol' iron bombs stuff heard figures closer 80 , 7 smart stuff , 35 hit try follow means 65 smart arsenal missed figures seen place hit ratio close 70 , still far higher 35 source says date , civilian death count \( er , excuse , mean collateral damage \) 200 , 000 never seen source claiming figure please post source reliability judged obviously , different sources bill \( happens theist , tie alt atheism ! \) pbs documentary war main source \( think still videotape \) others include nation progressive rest article mere rationalisation may claim sanitation plants strategic legitimate targets , happens civilians city sewer system \? happens civilians destroy water purification plants \? hospitals ca n't handle resultant , electricity \? exactly sources \? , i'm sure , seen 's interviews media pentagon lied patriot 's effectiveness source 70 effectiveness claim \? case , n't know relevant alt atheism move somewhere else \? shamim mohamed uunet , noao , cmcl2 ! arizona ! shamim shamim cs arizona edu take cross garlic 's mezuzah 's jewish page koran 's muslim 's zen buddhist , 're member league programming freedom write lpf uunet uu net
cs utexas edu \( irfan \) subject qur'an atheists \( jewish settlers demolish mosque gaza \) organization cs dept , university texas austin lines 20 nntp posting host pageboy cs utexas edu article 2 p00261 psilink com robert knowles p00261 psilink com writes date sun , 25 apr 1993 10 13 30 gmt fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au qur'an talks take lusts worldly desires god think probably encompasses atheists fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au well muslim men screwing fourteen year old prostitutes thailand got better quote \? wonder quote forms justification , belief arrived ! ! ! ! !
bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) subject free moral agency nntp posting host okcforum osrhe edu organization okcforum unix users group x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 distribution na lines 142 andrew newell \( tan102 psuvm psu edu \) wrote think 're letting atheist mythology confuse issue \( webster myth traditional legendary story belief whose truth accepted uncritically \) qualify \? indeed , 's almost oxymoronic rather amusing instance 've found atheists hold almost atheist views accepted uncritically , especially legend many trying explain basic truths , myths , n't meet andrew , myth refer convoluted counterfeit athiests created make religion appear absurd rather approach religion \( including \) rational manner debating claims stated , atheists concoct outrageous parodies hold religious accountable beliefs n't accurately term like , reasonable atheist bill divine justice according fundamental doctrines christianity , first man sinned , time accuse referencing mythology , launch xtian mythology \( time meeting requirements myth \) 's good example said read post , said , , means referring christian doctrine \( understand \) , speaking 'll know purpose posting present basic overview doctrines since seemed germane bill pretend know said means atheists claim know god exists n't know wants , contradict bible clearly says everyone knows authority bible claim repeat wrote sake getting across \? may trust bible , trusting n't make credible bible says everyone knows , 's clearly reason doubt bible , everyone knows alleged god 's alleged existance paraphrasing christian doctrine clear point , dispute bill refuted species wide condemnation justified claim evidence existence god unknown , must deliberately ignore bible ignorance excuse 1 \) , n't ignore bible bible far universally accepted bible proof god proof people thought god \( prove even \? might writing series fiction short stories case \) assuming writers believed , thing could possibly prove believed 's ignoring problem whether interpretations biblical philosophers correct 2 \) people truly never heard bible 3 \) , read faq 1 \) miss point bible point , 's contains makes difference bible even 's unaware existence , christians hold applies universally mankind shares nature fate innate knowledge god 2 \) see 3 \) read post care read faq , would n't conversation bill freedom free ignore god way free ignore gravity consequences inevitable well known cases atheist ca n't accept evidence means bzzt wrong answer ! gravity directly n't stop exerting direct rationally undeniable influence ignore god , hand , n't generally show supermarket , except god n't exert rationally undeniable influence gravity obvious gods n't said , evidence , n't accept , least agree bill secondly , human reason concept god , much , , intrinsic nature human reason always comes back question god , every generation , human reason n't always come back existance god usually come back existance god words , n't generally come back xtian god , comes back whether god , much oriental history , generally n't pop idea god much question natural forces ones world wide view , human nature makes us wonder universe came force \( \) currently control natural believe god exists religious wishful thinking yes , human reason always come back existence god , 're discussion \? bill said make point christianity eminently reasonable , divine justice human nature much different atheists think whether agree certainly correct human nature , least , basing views completely approach try looking outside world well attempt sum humanity well interesting , truth determined politically correct content granted 's extremely wasp male , anything european , thought kind dialogue , purpose , get truth things remember oxymoron , atheist , understand bill
bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) subject free moral agency nntp posting host okcforum osrhe edu organization okcforum unix users group x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 18 james felder \( spbach lerc nasa gov \) wrote saying physical adam eve , humans direct two human beings \? cain able 's wives \? could n't sisters , e n't daughters non humans \? okay humans direct descendents bunch hopeful monsters human race n't evolve one set parents , thousands really base atheist \? considering something like 4 5 humans planet n't know instinctively christian god exist , claim instinctive knowledge n't look like hold much water saying 4 billion non christians world must fight instinctive urge acknowledge god jc say people christians nature say christians hold everyone knows god christians worship would thought distinction obvious , sorry read post see really said 've written , think also word wrap screwed need shift 80 columns text bill
bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) subject free moral agency nntp posting host okcforum osrhe edu organization okcforum unix users group x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 distribution na lines 15 kent sandvik \( sandvik newton apple com \) wrote agree , hard feeling believing grand grand mother told elves dancing outside early mornings preferred accept , even statement provided truth life hard kent , truly brilliant rebuttal apparently opinion ridicule suitable substitute reason 'll find plenty company bill
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject cruel organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 39 nntp posting host punisher caltech edu kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) writes n't think although forms execution painful \( electric chair looks particularly \) , think pain relatively short lived drawing , hand , looks painful , victim would n't die right away \( 'd bleed death , 'd imagine \) ah , cruel punishment painful , stated long term pain , eg non short lived sudden chance stance \? n't think 've changed stance original stance painless execution cruel one n't say would considered cruel , painless death n't , cruelty must involve sort suffering , believe n't think someone gets shot head really suffers much even hanging probably produces one sharp instance pain , 's quickly hmmmmm \? pardon \? could counter example made , renders previous stance null void \? n't admit previous stance incorrect \? , somehow managed slip , origional stance , admit \? well , stated painless death n't cruel , n't think stated painful executions cruel think cruel , depending nature duration pain way , long long \? anything instant , guess death , blood loss would cruel , think \( includes gas chamber , drawing \) 'd say pain lasts , say , twenty seconds would long \( may arbitrary cutoff , suppose \) keith
kempmp phoenix oulu fi \( petri pihko \) subject christian morality organization university oulu , finland x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 107 dan schaertel , , , \( dps nasa kodak com \) wrote article ousrvr oulu fi , kempmp phoenix oulu fi \( petri pihko \) writes love god much loves wants seduce , 'll know would probably consider rape course would think would great fun , ever felt joy peace christians speak gaze got believed tried hide fear getting punished something never sure bible hopelessly confusing someone wants know sure god answer end , found following mass delusion , lie ca n't believe refuses give slightest hint existence obviously many christians tried believe \? suggest honestly reconsider reasons believe analyse position fact , amusing note context many fundamentalist publications tell us exactly opposite one examine one 's belief critically 'll tell something left posted group two months ago day finally found faith , decided try one time cycle emotional responses fired , time delusion lasted couple hours told friend phone really works , thank god , think hung admit lied , fallen prey illusion one asks swallow everything , fact jesus warns let ask question beleive learn history class , matter anything school mean 's people told n't want swallow others say right \? used believe read books younger , people told , grew skeptical read learned means use reason student chemistry , perform qualitative analysis mixture two organic compounds lab hated experiments like old fashioned increase student 's considerably besides , twice , since failed first attempt however , think 'll never forget lesson matter strongly believe structure unknown x , may still tempting jump conclusions , take leap faith , assure oneself , ignore data inconsistent still wrong found , , using exactly mechanism believe god mental self assurance , suspension fear , filtering information words , , god playing part life , death , resurection christ documented historical fact oh \? better believe \? dan , many ufo stories much better documented resurrection jesus resurrection documented quite bible seems authors pay much attention wild rumour leave besides , ends gospels probably contain later additions instance , end mark \( 16 9 20 \) missing many early texts , says bible jesus may lived died , probably misunderstood much anything else learn choose believe \? easy believe world exists independent mind , logic reason used interpret analyse observe nothing else need taken faith , go evidence makes difference whether believe george washington existed assume , considering vast amount evidence presented way get sceptical heart say given sincere effort attitude seem must trust , go church participate 's activities ever willing die believed \? liar , know attitude \? try reading bible willing die faith usually remembered heroes , least among believe dan , think i'm lying say believed firmly 15 years \? seems difficult admit someone really believed anymore ca n't go lying blind trust dangerous , another blind led blind god really wants , 'll know i'm willing n't know whether exists looking available evidence , looks like n't petri ' '' petri pihko kem pmp mathematics truth ! ' ' ' ' ' pihatie 15 c finou oulu fi physics rule ' ' ' sf 90650 oulu kempmp game ' finland phoenix oulu fi chemistry game
kadie cs uiuc edu \( carl kadie \) subject upi mother files complaint boy scouts keywords children , special interest , gambling , human interest , children 's education , education organization university illinois , dept comp sci , urbana , il lines 18 default , followups 3 newsgroups short excerpt , wis \( upi \) mother filed complaint school board son 's elementary school parent teacher organization show discrimination supporting boy scouts said wednesday pto 's sponsorship boy scout troop cub scout pack meet hillside elementary school milwaukee discrimination boy scouts ban homosexuals pto president gail disputed charges discrimination said believes boy scouts beneficial carl kadie represent organization kadie cs uiuc edu
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject free moral agency organization sgi lines 16 distribution world nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article darkside osrhe uoknor edu , bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) writes okay humans direct descendents bunch hopeful monsters human race n't evolve one set parents , thousands really base atheist \? article darkside osrhe uoknor edu , bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) writes truly brilliant rebuttal apparently opinion ridicule suitable substitute reason 'll find plenty company bill conner , meet bill conner jon
forgach noao edu \( suzanne forgach \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality originator forgach gemini noao edu nntp posting host gemini noao edu organization national optical astronomy observatories , tucson , az , usa lines 5 article kmr4 po cwru edu kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) writes sun starts orbit earth accept bible forget two spinning skaters orbit around \?
organization penn state university andrew newell tan102 psuvm psu edu subject go hell ! ! ! 1993apr16 ncsu edu 1993apr21 wam umd edu lines 38 article 1993apr21 wam umd edu , wam umd edu \( william david battles \) says article 1993apr16 ncsu edu aiken news ncsu edu \( wayne nmi aiken \) writes jsn104 psuvm psu edu wrote blashephemers ! ! ! go hell believing god ! ! ! ! e b prepared eternal damnation ! ! ! someone leave terminal unattended \? probably ! jesus freak 's post probably jsn104 psuvm penn state loaded bible bangers use go vomit reason left even group try stop playing rock music dining halls one year cuz deemed satanic people run damn place part except liberal arts departments safe havens sounds like going different penn state something vocal , really little power get anything done sometimes seems like lot 're generally vocal opposition , really n't many liberals tend keep help , since really want allowed go lives way want n't hear bible bangers stand want everyone forced live according bible banger rules certainly n't run place 'd say 've got rather average mix people much like rest u like everywhere else , factions louder others andrew
kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) subject free moral agency organization case western reserve university lines 29 distribution na nntp posting host b64635 student cwru edu article darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) writes myth refer convoluted counterfeit athiests created make religion appear absurd rather approach religion \( including \) rational manner debating claims stated , atheists concoct outrageous parodies hold religious accountable beliefs n't accurately term like , reasonable atheist 1 \) religious parodies , atheistic 2 \) please substantiate parodies , outrageous specifically , iup outrageous many religions \? private note jennifer fakult post may contain one following sarcasm , cycnicism , irony , humor please aware possibility allow confused thrown loop doubt , assume owners account take responsiblity confusion may result inability recognize read risk , jennifer
kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) subject cruel organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 41 nntp posting host b64635 student cwru edu article gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) writes well , stated painless death n't cruel , n't think stated painful executions cruel think cruel , depending nature duration pain hanging certainly painful , let condemned know going die \? anything instant , guess death , blood loss would cruel , think \( includes gas chamber , drawing \) 'd say pain lasts , say , twenty seconds would long \( may arbitrary cutoff , suppose \) hanging supposed pleasant believe actuality , quick clean however , gas chambers quite non painful heck , give good time \? oxide ! \) private note jennifer fakult post may contain one following sarcasm , cycnicism , irony , humor please aware possibility allow confused thrown loop doubt , assume owners account take responsiblity confusion may result inability recognize read risk , jennifer
christen astro ocis temple edu \( carl christensen \) subject books organization temple university lines 4 nntp posting host astro ocis temple edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 stuff hard find atheist books deleted perhaps fundies onto school boards , city councils , etc something ca n't find alternative media \?
christen astro ocis temple edu \( carl christensen \) subject cults vs religions \? organization temple university lines 22 nntp posting host astro ocis temple edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 bill ray \( ray engr latech edu \) wrote james thomas green \( jgreen trumpet calpoly edu \) wrote conclusion shown essentially logical argument clearly differentiates cult religion challenge anyone produce distinction clear ca n't easily knocked one religion cult stood test time like history written ' 've seen religions , religion cult vile corrupt able exert 's doctrine using political military measures perhaps koresh withstood onslaught another couple months would started attracting converts due , ' hence becoming full religion cult carl christensen , , , dept computer science christen astro ocis temple edu temple university curiouser curiouser ! lc ``` philadelphia , pa usa
madhaus netcom com \( maddi hausmann \) subject nicknames organization society putting things top things lines 18 cmtan iss nus sg \( tan chade meng dan \) writes somebody forgotten nickname tan chade meng \( chinese nicknames front \) unenlightened one thought nickname unenlightened maddi hausmann madhaus netcom com centigram communications corp san jose california 408 428 3553 kids , please n't try home remember , post professionally
ed wente llnl gov \( ed suranyi \) subject asimov stamp organization uc davis dept applied science llnl lines 18 nntp posting host wente llnl gov article dcs ed ac uk pdc dcs ed ac uk \( paul crowley \) writes quoting schnitzi eustis cs ucf edu \( mark schnitzius \) article schnitzi eustis i'm sure religious types would get due asimov 's atheism someone confirm \? someone told asimov converted christianity point , something anyone good quotes \? \? absolutely way asimov lifelong atheist , said many times , right death judging many stories told life , felt culturally closest judaism , makes sense born jewish ed ed wente llnl gov
bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) subject free moral agency nntp posting host okcforum osrhe edu organization okcforum unix users group x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 distribution na lines 40 dean kaflowitz \( decay cbnewsj cb att com \) wrote think 're letting atheist mythology great start realize immediately interested discussion going thump babble would much prefer answer ms healy , seems reasonable reasoned approach things say , n't creationist guy made lot silly statements evolution time ago \? duh , gee , must talking christian mythology hoping discuss something reasonable , logical person , seem side repetition boring mythology 've seen thousand times deleting rest remarks , unless spot something approaches answer , merely repetition doctrine contain thought congratulate , though , bill would n't know logical argument bit balls persistent lack function face repeated attempts assist learning \( seen forum others past \) speaks talent goes well beyond , meager abilities n't seem capacity ignoring outside influences dean kaflowitz dean , read comments , think merely characterizing argument refuting \? think ad attacks sufficient make point disapproval \? contribution make \? bill
bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality nntp posting host okcforum osrhe edu organization okcforum unix users group x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 31 mark mccullough \( mccullou snake2 cs wisc edu \) wrote article 30136 ursa bear com halat pooh bears \( jim halat \) writes atoms objective n't even real scientists call atom nothing mathematical model describes certain physical , observable properties surroundings subjective jim halat deserves framing really atoms n't even real tell , atoms seen electron microscopes atoms , \? imaginations \? evidence atoms real overwhelming , wo n't bother evidence moment would us believe eye perceives images perceived \? may interesting thought electron microscope used wavelength light illuminate object atomic scale image useful resolution , would n't illuminating sources wavelength several orders magnitude less size thing observed \? atom cloud , lower resolutions would give appearance , seems fairly certain atom object conventional sense obviously physicist , question nature anyway , stray thought , carry bill
bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality nntp posting host okcforum osrhe edu organization okcforum unix users group x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 23 mike cobb \( cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \) wrote true \( length time discussions creationism vs \) atheists christians debating since \? \? still debate passion 8 \) mike , 've seen creation vs evolution several times question either point view derived direct observation either scientific \? wonder whole controversy concerned consequences truth rather truth sides seem hold philosophical outcome , ca n't help wondering came first 've pointed elsewhere , view human nature makes believe way knowing objectively knowledge inherently subjective , context , would take stand based actually know true want true tell difference \? bill
bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality nntp posting host okcforum osrhe edu organization okcforum unix users group x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 30 kent sandvik \( sandvik newton apple com \) wrote article darkside osrhe uoknor edu , bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) wrote 'd say one chooses observe observation interpreted significance 's given depends great deal values observer science human activity , subject potential distortion human activity myth scientists moral influence ethical concern , knowledge whole pure nature biases scientist , nonsense bill , wonderfully phrased assume understand statement also undermining human constructs religion well kent , 'll accept compliment although i'm always little paranoid visiting , thanks yes know extent statements , 's think human nature i'm sure undermines either religion atheism since claim special knowledge truth since claims always suspect , learn humans arrogant species point cannot ignore human nature examining human claims trick , find way abstract infinitely fallible nature whatever reality see see think way done bill
bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) subject 's shit \? \( amusing atheists \) nntp posting host okcforum osrhe edu organization okcforum unix users group x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 20 robert beauchaine \( bobbe vice ico tek com \) wrote precisely position newbie , tried point point approach debate types wasted time lifespan ignoring option , since n't go away , would leave one large stretches complete anonymity group bob , 've posted long enough see name times , ca n't recall point point approach anything 've contributed i'm old \( probably senile \) may forgotten , could post example invincible logic , might memory bill
mcelwre cnsvax uwec edu subject free energy technology organization university wisconsin eau claire lines 248 important info humbly suggested robert 's fans redirect followups alt fan robert mcelwaine , least consider free energy technology robert e mcelwaine , physicist ninety hundred years ago , everybody knew heavier air machine could possibly fly would violate laws physics experts authorities said example , simon newcomb declared demonstration possible combination known substances , known forms machinery known forms force , united practical machine man shall fly long distances air , seems writer complete possible demonstration physical fact fortunately , smart people wright brothers accept pronouncements final word take airplanes granted , \( except crash \) today , orthodox physicists scientists saying similar things several kinds technologies , using negative terms pseudo science perpetual motion , citing called laws assert energy cannot created destroyed \( 1st law thermodynamics \) always decrease useful energy \( 2nd law thermodynamics \) physicists know certain things , arrogantly declare things cannot done principles impotence common orthodox modern science help cover inconsistencies contradictions orthodox modern theories free energy inventions devices tap seemingly unlimited supply energy universe , burning kind fuel , making perfect solution world wide energy crisis associated pollution , degradation , depletion environment free energy devices probably create energy , rather tap existing natural energy sources various forms induction unlike solar wind devices , need little energy storage capacity , tap much energy needed needed solar energy dis advantage sun often blocked clouds , trees , buildings , earth , reduced haze smog thick atmosphere low altitudes high latitudes likewise , wind speed widely variable often non existent neither solar wind power suitable directly power cars airplanes properly designed free energy devices limitations example , least three u patents \( 3 , 811 , , 3 , 879 , 622 , 4 , 151 , 431 \) far awarded motors run exclusively permanent magnets , seemingly tapping energy circulating earth 's magnetic field first two require feedback network order self running third one , described detail science mechanics magazine , spring 1980 , \( amazing magnet powered motor , , pages 45 48 , 114 117 , front cover \) , requires critical sizes , shapes , orientations , magnets , feedback motor could drive electric generator reversible one 's home , year round , free complete descriptive copies u patents 3 00 u patent office , jefferson davis hwy , arlington , va correct 7 digit patent number required try getting copies article patents via local public university library 's inter library loan dept second type free energy device , \( u patent 3 , 890 , 548 \) , , motor inventor joseph newman see science , 2 10 84 , pages 571 2 , taps electro magnetic energy induction \( 12 cycles per second plus harmonics \) typically circuit serves energy coils energy tapped important total device combine frequency order maximize power output output also increased centering spark gap center' strong u shaped permanent magnet case tesla coil , slipping choke around secondary coil enhance output power earth energy propulsion power systems , john bigelow , 1976 , health research , p box 70 , hill , ca 1930 's , austrian civil engineer named viktor invented partially developed \( german name , \) , analyzing erosion , lack erosion , differently shaped , developing sophisticated mathematical equations explain described book breakthrough new free energy sources , dan davidson , 1977 , water pumped pump logarithmic spiral shaped coil tubing reaches critical velocity water implodes , longer touching inside walls tubing , drives pump , converts pump 's motor electric generator device seems tapping energy earth 's rotation , via , like tornado also neutralize gravity ! fourth type free energy device air \( u patent 2 , 982 , 261 \) , cross diesel engine \( three cylinders compression ratio 27 1 \) rotary engine \( solar planetary gears \) burns fuel , becomes self running driving air compressor engine also generates lot heat , could used heat buildings high torque makes ideal large trucks , preventing slowing climbing hills david also real original inventor automatic transmission , differential , 4 wheel drive crystals may someday used supply energy , shown star trek shows , perhaps inserting one metal capacitor plates bombarding beam particles small radioactive source like used common household smoke detector one energy source mentioned , despite fact fit definition free energy bulgarian born american physicist named joseph invented partially developed atomic fusion reactor calls , uses non radioactive deuterium fuel available nearly unlimited quantities sea water , produce radioactive waste , converted directly electricity \( energy wasting steam turbines \) , constructed small enough power house large enough power city unlike laser fusion read , works , already producing least three watts power every watt put new times \( u version \) , 6 26 78 , pages 32 40 experiments news lately , originally conducted university utah researchers b stanley martin u navy researchers china lake naval weapons center california , direction chemist melvin miles , finally took trouble collect bubbles coming apparatus , analyzed mass techniques , found helium 4 , proves atomic fusion indeed take place , enough explain excess heat generated good indications two called laws thermodynamics absolute example , late physicist dewey b larson developed comprehensive general unified theory physical universe , calls system' , \( describes detail several books nothing motion \( 1979 \) universe motion \( 1984 \) \) , physical universe two distinct halves , material half anti matter half , continuous cycle matter energy passing , heat death predicted laws theory explains universe much better modern orthodox theories , including phenomena orthodox physicists astronomers still scratching heads , self consistent every way free energy devices might tapping energy flow , seemingly converting low quality energy high quality energy also , certain religious organizations teach members physical universe lowest least dozen major levels existence , like parallel universes , analogous tv channels , described books like path masters , dr julian johnson , 1939 , eckankar key secret worlds , sri paul , 1969 example , next level physical universe commonly called long time members groups learned higher worlds report conditions seems plausible energy could flow higher levels physical universe , created boundary , given right configuration matter channel supported many successful laboratory controlled experiments psycho kinesis throughout world , described book psychic discoveries behind iron curtain terms economics , market failed inventors enough money resources fully develop mass produce free energy equipment , conventional energy producer desire ted government needed intervene government intervene , total supply energy resources earth continue decline soon run , prices energy increase , pollution harmful effects \( including , acid rain , smog , radioactive contamination , oil spills , rape land strip mining , etc \) continue increase government subsidize research development free energy inventors universities , subsidize private production \( producers make \) , subsidize consumption low income consumers free energy hardware long range effects government intervention would wide spread profound quantity energy demanded conventional energy producer \( coal mining , oil countries , electric , etc \) would drop near zero , forcing employees seek work elsewhere energy resources \( coal , uranium , oil , gas \) would left ground prices conventional energy supplies would also drop near zero , price free energy equipment would start high drop supply increases \( happened vcr 's , personal computers , etc \) costs producing products require large quantities energy produce would decrease , along prices consumers consumers would able realize opportunity costs paying electric utility bills buying home heating fuel tourism would benefit increase travelers would spend money gasoline cars government tax revenue gasoline fuels would obtained way energy could longer used motive excuse making war many conventional energy producer would go business , society whole , earth 's environment , would benefit greatly people , government serve , rather big corporation bank information , answers questions , etc , please consult cited sources \( patents , articles , books \) un altered reproduction dissemination important information encouraged robert e mcelwaine b , physics , uw ec
kempmp phoenix oulu fi \( petri pihko \) subject christian morality organization university oulu , finland x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 58 dan schaertel , , , \( dps nasa kodak com \) wrote let us go back , oh say 1000 years , whatever pretend someone says someday men moon \( remember , still think world flat \) quite extraordinary claim think c lewis argued medieval people think world flat however , argument goes ways pretend someone telling plato highly probable people really souls minds consciousness something brains make , brains \( body \) actually ahead mind even actions n't think plato would happy , neither would paul , although paul 's ideas quite different however , would read discuss group , preach , would see currently much evidence favour statements applies theory natural selection , sacred cows christianity origins human nature n't believe spirits , devils immortal souls gods fact argue existence god end time , really way either prove disprove , time know truth hope believe i'm right hope pray find way ah , said believe want assumed along ok maybe n't said way guess really believe way plant seeds either grow n't might well planting satan 's seeds , ever thought \? besides , n't yet explained must believe blindly , without guiding light \( least n't noticed \) n't think fair play god 's part argument sounds like version pascal 's wager please read faq , fallacy discussed wo n't 're planted holy spirit helps grow comes god failed get help hs wrong attitude \? sorry , dan , think spirit exists people claim access look badly deluded , gifted petri ' '' petri pihko kem pmp mathematics truth ! ' ' ' ' ' pihatie 15 c finou oulu fi physics rule ' ' ' sf 90650 oulu kempmp game ' finland phoenix oulu fi chemistry game
madhaus netcom com \( maddi hausmann \) subject free moral agency organization society putting things top things distribution na lines 20 bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) writes see still ca n't grasp obvious , devious nature , find fault argument misrepresenting \? gee , since ignored entire substance substantial post , got lot nerve claiming n't understand 's talked respond previous post shut fuck 're really annoying maddi hausmann madhaus netcom com centigram communications corp san jose california 408 428 3553 kids , please n't try home remember , post professionally
kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) subject free energy technology organization case western reserve university lines 25 nntp posting host b64635 student cwru edu article 1993apr22 cnsvax uwec edu mcelwre cnsvax uwec edu writes free energy inventions devices tap seemingly unlimited supply energy universe , burning kind fuel , making perfect solution world wide energy crisis associated pollution , degradation , depletion environment give call build working model 'll talk stock options private note jennifer fakult post may contain one following sarcasm , cycnicism , irony , humor please aware possibility allow confused thrown loop doubt , assume owners account take responsiblity confusion may result inability recognize read risk , jennifer
jmunch hertz elee calpoly edu \( john munch \) subject qur'an atheists \( jewish settlers demolish mosque gaza \) organization california polytechnic state university , san luis obispo lines 20 article 1993apr26 doug cae wisc edu 30 cae wisc edu \( \) writes respect , since atheists arrogant claim self control self ownership , would make look like humble , decent people comparison ! logic since , others like also , going , things self existent self standing , self living , etc yes , atheists tend claim self control self ownership saying theists claim self control \? n't think atheists arrogant n't claim god supremacy mankind claim would arrogant , atheists n't claim atheists claim think disagreement claim self ownership would arrogant john david munch jmunch hertz elee calpoly edu heart change , full hate , love people allowed base lives hearts , anything happen dangerous situation , opinion bobby mozumder describing problems atheism
mangoe cs umd edu \( charley wingate \) subject cults vs religions \? lines 8 media , religion cult relative connotations government terrorist group c wingate peace god , peace , strife closed sod mangoe cs umd edu yet , brothers , pray one thing tove ! mangoe marv'lous peace god
salem pangea stanford edu \( bruce salem \) subject science theories organization stanford univ earth sciences lines 42 nntp posting host pangea stanford edu article news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) writes per various threads science creationism , 've started book called christianity nature science jp n't know book , use question come one comments stated god necessarily religious term , could used scientific terms give explanation events theories , without proven scientific fact depends defines god way understand meaning term used useful way science ideas drawn understanding god supernatural precludes us forming scientific assertions falsified , , decide true false within terms use useful observations drawn interest definitions within science make , especially basic way , religious dogma pursuit always fails think got point quote section i'm vague examples gave quarks continental plates explanations science parts theories measurable , everything quantified , measured , tested , etc \? reconciliation science religion involves circumventing claim either pursuit gain absolute certian knowledge , domain truth limited way element uncertainty limitations human knowledge allowing different concerns separate science religion ask different questions imperfect provisional answers , best science distinctly limited ask meaningful questions questions posed answer basis sacred language place words fail us mere assertions contradiction bruce salem
mangoe cs umd edu \( charley wingate \) subject little satanic lines 26 jon livesey writes took time copy text correctly , includes obvious \? well , yes real mystery matter , rather dubious lot source theories number places masoretic text \( mt \) ot obscure presumably corrupted reproduced exactly copy copy dss tend reflect errors would appear tell us , least point , people began copy texts mechanically problem , n't know seems though accurate transmission begins point texts perceived texts may added \( situations , end mark , material lost \) , part substantial changes existing text 're basically trying make mountain people like use game telephone metaphor transmission texts clearly wrong texts transmitted accurately c wingate peace god , peace , strife closed sod mangoe cs umd edu yet , brothers , pray one thing tove ! mangoe marv'lous peace god
alan olsen p17 f40 n105 z1 fidonet org \( alan olsen \) subject albert sabin lines 275 br wpr atlanta dg com \( bill rawlins \) br newsgroups alt atheism br organization , atlanta , ga br since referred messiah , assume br referring new testament please detail br complaints e mail n't want post br first century greek well known br well understood considered josephus , jewish br historian , also wrote jesus \? addition , br four gospel accounts much harmony also well known comments josephus relating jesus inserted \( badly \) later editors four gospels harmony issue jesus know speak contradictions starting trial continuing death judas betrayal jesus acts 1 18 man \( judas \) purchased field reward iniquity falling headlong , burst midst , gushed matt 27 5 7 \( judas \) cast pieces silver temple , departed , went hanged chief priests bought potter 's field jesus' prediction regarding peter 's denial \? cock crow matthew 26 34 cock crow twice mark 14 30 many times cock crow \? mar 14 72 second time cock crew peter called mind word jesus said unto , cock crow twice , thou shalt deny thrice thought , wept mat 26 74 began curse swear , saying , know man immediately cock crew mat 26 75 peter remembered word jesus , said unto , cock crow , thou shalt deny thrice went , wept bitterly 22 60 peter said , man , know thou immediately , yet spake , cock crew 22 61 lord turned , looked upon peter peter remembered word lord , said unto , cock crow , thou shalt deny thrice joh 13 38 jesus answered , wilt thou lay thy life sake \? verily , verily , say unto thee , cock shall crow , still thou hast denied thrice joh 18 27 peter denied immediately cock crew destruction cities \( said jeremiah zechariah \) \( interesting matthew quotes prophesy never made ! time either \) mat 27 9 fulfilled spoken jeremy prophet , saying , took thirty pieces silver , price valued , children israel value zechariah 11 11 13 \( nothing jeremiah remotely like \) color robe placed jesus trial \? scarlet matthew 27 28 purple john 19 2 time mark says third hour , 9 , john says sixth hour \( noon \) sentence passed inscription cross matthew jesus king jews mark king jews luke king jews john jesus nazareth king jews give drink \? vinegar matthew 27 34 wine mark 15 23 women cross matthew said many stood far , including mary , mary mother james , mother zebedee 's children mark luke speak many far , mark includes mary mary mother james less john says jesus 's mother stood cross , along sister mary magdalene jesus' last words matt 27 46 , 50 ninth hour jesus cried loud voice , saying , eli , eli , lama \? say , god , god , hast thou forsaken \? jesus , cried loud voice , yielded u ghost 46 jesus cried loud voice , said , father , unto thy hands commend spirit said thus , gave ghost 30 jesus therefore received vinegar , said , finished head , gave ghost events matthew says veil temple rent , earthquake , dark sixth ninth hour , graves opened bodies saints arose went jeruselem , appearing many \( beating jesus resurection \) mark luke speak darkness veil temple rent mention earthquake risen saints john one mentions jesus 's side burial jesus matthew says jews asked pilate guard prevent body stolen disciples , tomb sealed supposedly done , gospels mention precautions long jesus tomb \? depends look matthew 12 40 gives jesus spend three days three nights heart earth , mark 10 34 three days \( meta \) rise far see quick look , prophecies three days , post resurrection narratives third day time resurection matthew says sunday dawn , mark says sun rising , john says dark empty tomb \? mat 28 1 end sabbath , began dawn toward first day week , came mary magdalene mary see sepulchre mar 16 1 sabbath past , mary magdalene , mary mother james , , bought sweet spices , might come joh 20 1 first day week cometh mary magdalene early , yet dark , unto sepulchre , stone taken away sepulchre see tomb \? mat 28 2 , behold , great earthquake angel lord descended heaven , came rolled back stone door , sat upon mat 28 3 countenance like lightning , white snow mat 28 4 fear keepers shake , became dead men mat 28 5 angel answered said unto women , fear ye know ye seek jesus , crucified mar 16 5 entering sepulchre , saw young man sitting right side , clothed long white 24 4 came pass , much , behold , two men stood shining garments joh 20 12 two angels white sitting , one head , feet , body jesus belief disciples stole jesus 's body matthew says guard paid tell story , gospel makes claim risen jesus matthew says angel tomb told two jesus also told , tell disciples meet galilee disciples went mountain previously agreed , met jesus appearance , except women tomb matthew five verses visit disciples mark says jesus walked two disciples country , told rest disciples , refused believe later appeared 11 disciples luke says two followers went , day jesus rose dead , emmaus , village eight miles jeruselem , jesus ate meal together evening , finally recognised jesus , returning jeruselem , told disciples experience , suddenly jesus appeared among , frightening , thought spirit jesus ate fish honey preached john says jesus appeared disciples evening day , jeruselem , hiding breathed holy ghost , thomas present refused believe eight days later jesus joined disciples place time convinced thomas jesus made appearance disciples sea recognised telling cast side boat , jesus becomes known bread fish eat together converse book acts adds confusion says jesus showed apostles period 40 days resurection \( thus contradicting matthew , mark , luke john \) spoke things pertaining kingdom god spoken things , , taken cloud recieved sight looked toward heaven went , two men stood white also said , ye men galilee , stand ye gazing heaven \? jesus , taken heaven , shall like ye seen go heaven acts 1 3 11 paul every authority saying jesus seen 500 persons time resurection , although say also claims one born due time also saw jesus 1 cor 15 6 8 ascension matthew says nothing mark casually says jesus recieved heaven finished talking disciples jeruselem luke says jesus led blessed , parted carried heaven john says nothing acts contradicts \( see previous section \) second coming \? mat 24 34 verily say unto , generation shall pass , till things fulfilled mar 13 30 verily say unto , generation shall pass , till things done 21 32 verily say unto , generation shall pass away , till fulfilled 1 thessalonians 4 15 18 many apostles office resurection 1 corinthians 15 5 \( 12 \) matthew 27 3 5 \( minus one 12 \) acts 1 9 26 \( elected resurrection \) mat 28 16 eleven disciples went away galilee , mountain jesus appointed ascend heaven elijah went heaven \( 2 kings 2 11 \) man hath ascended heaven came heaven , son man \( john 3 13 \) see , number contradictions account trial , resurection jesus good witnesses , would think could get important details right ! \( fact , cannot find many points agree would think could least agree points supposedly observing ! \) fact much contradiction error , story resurection presented cannot taken literal truth \( due nature story , doubt taken sort truth \) alan
alan olsen p17 f40 n105 z1 fidonet org \( alan olsen \) subject albert sabin lines 41 br wpr atlanta dg com \( bill rawlins \) br newsgroups alt atheism br organization , atlanta , ga br problem scientists exclude br possibility supernatural question br origins fair premise \? utterly br reject hypothesis science highest form br truth better crap creationists put far able manage distortions half truths \( taking quotes context \) br called human like creatures br apes humans br reconstructed fragments genetic code shown man primates fossil record \( little detail creationists try ignore \) br good deeds justify person god 's br sight atonement \( jesus \) needed atone br sin says \? bible \( tm \) \? would surprised christian followed rules bible \( pick choose , according local biases \) br point god creator look 's like agree proof \? know god \? br 'll send info via e mail br regards , bill post \? would interested seeing alan
alan olsen p17 f40 n105 z1 fidonet org \( alan olsen \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality lines 29 mc theory creationism theistic view theory mc creationism , \( many others \) stated genesis mc 1 beginning god created heavens earth order creation accept \? story creation one many places bible story contradicts following example gen 1 25 god made beast earth kind , cattle kind , every thing upon earth kind god saw good gen 1 26 god said , let us make man image , let dominion fish sea , air , cattle , earth , every creeping thing upon earth gen 2 18 lord god said , good man alone make help meet gen 2 19 ground lord god formed every beast field , every air brought unto adam see would call whatsoever adam called every living creature , name thereof even bible cannot agree things created believe \? alan
alan olsen p17 f40 n105 z1 fidonet org \( alan olsen \) subject thoughts lines 47 rh house helios usq edu au \( ron house \) rh newsgroups alt atheism rh organization university southern queensland rh bissda saturn wwc edu \( dan lawrence bissell \) writes first want start right say i'm christian rh know n't get involved , \) rh bit deleted book says jesus either liar , crazy \( modern day koresh \) actually said rest rant deleted standard argument fundies spot \? statement arguing assumption jesus actually existed far , able offer real proof existance try using \( \) flawed writings josh mcdowell others prove , writers use flawed sources \( real sources , \) ever learn real research , instead believing drivel sold christian bookstores rh , dan , try one rh book says muhammad either liar , rh crazy \( modern day mad mahdi \) actually rh said reasons would n't liar rh follows would die lie \? would n't people able rh tell liar \? people gathered around rh kept , many gathered hearing seeing rh son law made sun stand still call fool , rh believe make sun stand still rh niether lunatic would entire nation rh drawn someone crazy doubtful , fact rh rediculous example anyone drawn mad rh mahdi obviously fool , logical people see right rh away rh therefore since n't liar lunatic , must rh real thing nice ! alan
jgreen trumpet calpoly edu \( james thomas green \) subject help god court \? organization california polytechnic state university , san luis obispo lines 22 bobbe vice \( robert beauchaine 6086 59 323 lp \) pontificated guess n't understand problem 've never problem swearing using name god sentence comes quite naturally , matter would guess either mean n't problem swearing non existant dense \( considering group \) n't come quite naturally even followers religions would say would quite natural forced swear allah \? \( james green \) \( jgreen oboe calpoly edu \) times nations , priest hostile liberty thomas jefferson
mayne pipe cs fsu edu \( william mayne \) subject alleged deathbed conversions \( asimov stamp \) organization florida state university computer science department reply mayne cs fsu edu lines 32 article netcom com sheaffer netcom com \( robert sheaffer \) writes happen old allegation deathbed conversion noted examples deathbed conversion claims common utterly unsubstantiated , almost certainly untrue would quick say almost certainly untrue even strong minded people may fall back childhood indoctrination , grasp , strange things faced extreme suffering , mention physiological problems may lead diminished mental capacity risk restarting old argument accusations appeal authority remind readers posted back kind late atheist dr albert sabin old interview rebroadcast public radio death told time years stricken serious illness admitted cried god critically ill turned recovered lived several years recovery attributed early indoctrination n't say could n't happen , n't happened others , even one people experienced things like people different admire dr sabin admitting human weakness instance would think less asimov similar weakness nevertheless agree reports unsubstantiated may well untrue case evidence anything besides power early indoctrination human bill mayne
i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) subject yet rushdie islamic law organization technical university braunschweig , germany lines 37 article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) writes \( deletion \) 's original answer say head necessarily ass , would meaningless pointless n't see header referring bob poster responding distinctly remember thinking responding wrote , case would make apologies event fact responding bob , hereby apologize bob insinuating thing sorry bob hand , could ben head far ass ca n't tell bob sorry , gregg , answer post mine quite fond using abusing language whenever think religion misrepresented way , trouble telling apart bob beauchaine still wait answer quran allows beat wife submission quite upset claim , correct , said n't asked consequences case would quran , simply ceased respond thread found meantime holy book \? consequences \? upset show \? simple inherit morals book , ie suddenly ok \? correct say words muhammad reflect primitive machism society \? spent time new gained freedom \? benedikt
subject alleged deathbed conversions \( asimov stamp \) lippard skyblu ccit arizona edu \( james j lippard \) dcs ed ac uk netcom com panix com distribution world , local organization university arizona nntp posting host skyblu ccit arizona edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 lines 42 article panix com , carlf panix com \( carl fink \) writes netcom com sheaffer netcom com \( robert sheaffer \) writes deletion happen old allegation deathbed conversion noted seem recall similar claims made voltaire , , darwin , , etc indeed , literary hoax attributed nietzsche , sister , fear divine judgment \( recently issued amok books , introduction lutheran professor telling us take seriously ! \) deathbed conversion claims common utterly unsubstantiated , almost certainly untrue perhaps least believable alleged conversion tom paine , reported , like , devout relatives asimov unlikely convert christianity deathbed return judaism , perhaps , revert childhood training , christianity \? good doctor would likely converted hinduism isaac asimov read creationist books read bible ample opportunity creator savior refused fact , sent strong promotional letter urging support american humanist association , shortly died excerpt ken ham , asimov meets creator , back genesis 42 , june 1992 , p c \( included acts facts vol 21 , 6 , june 1992 , institute creation research \) one offensive articles 've ever published least argues deathbed conversion 's part article even worse 've quoted , excerpt reader 's letter says asimov burning hell , certainly 180 degree change former beliefs creation creator \( post deathbed conversion \) jim lippard lippard ccit arizona edu dept philosophy lippard arizvms bitnet university arizona tucson , az 85721
ldo waikato ac nz \( lawrence d'oliveiro , waikato university \) subject quicktime performance \( rumours 3do \? \? \? \) organization university waikato , hamilton , new zealand lines 67 ok , discussion observed playback speeds quicktime , effects scaling , thought 'd tests first , felt original speed test perhaps less realistic movie using 18 frames \( version first movie created compact video compressor \) decided something little longer would give closer real world results \( better worse \) pulled copy 2001 space odyssey recorded tv back fifteen minutes movie , 's sequence earth shuttle approaching space station specifically , digitized portion 30 seconds' duration , zooming rotating space station figured would give reasonable amount movement frames increase differences frames , digitized 5 frames per second , give total 171 frames captured raw footage resolution 384 288 pixels spigot card centris 650 \( quarter size resolution pal source \) imported premiere put compact video compressor , keeping 5 fps frame rate created two versions movie one scaled 320 240 resolution , 160 120 resolution used default 2 00 quality setting premiere 2 0 1 , specified key frame every ten frames ran 320 240 movie raw speed test program used results 'd reporting earlier result playback rate 45 frames per second 's right , getting much higher result first short test movie fun , copied 320 240 movie external hard disk \( quantum \) , ran time playback rate 35 frames per second obviously internal hard disk \( also quantum \) significant contributor speed playback modified speed test program allow specification optional scaling factors , tried playing back 160 120 movie scaled 320 240 size time playback speed 60 fps clearly , poster observed poor performance scaled playback seeing quicktime 1 0 action , 1 5 'd try tests quicktime 1 0 , n't think 's entirely compatible centris system 7 1 , playback rate 160 120 movie 100 fps thing tried saving versions 320 240 movie preferred playback rates greater 1 0 , seeing well played within \( ie quicktime 's normal synchronized playback \) preferred rate 9 0 \( 45 fps \) n't work well playback jerky compare raw speed test , achieved 45 fps ease ca n't believe quicktime 's synchronization code would add much overhead think slowdown coming mac system 's task switching preferred rate 7 0 \( 35 fps \) seemed work fine could n't see evidence stutter 8 0 \( 40 fps \) think could see slight stutter , four key frames every second , hard tell guess could try recreating movies longer interval key frames , make stutter noticeable course , also improve compression slightly , speed playback performance even lawrence d'oliveiro fone 64 7 856 2889 computer services dept fax 64 7 838 4066 university waikato electric mail ldo waikato ac nz hamilton , new zealand 37 47' 26 , 175 19' 7 e , gmt 12 00
kiwi iis ethz ch \( rene mueller \) subject icn \( msdos \) pbm pgm ppm format \? organization swiss federal institute technology \( eth \) , zurich , ch distribution comp lines 7 many icons format would like convert pbm , pgm ppm format know formats \? thank 's help , rene \( kiwi iis ethz ch \)
stolk fwi uva nl \( bram \) subject 48 bit graphics keywords 48 bit alpha channel image nntp posting host gene fwi uva nl organization fwi , university amsterdam lines 32 howdy , oehler yar cs wisc edu \( sane \) writes recently talking possible employer \( mine ! \) \) made reference 48 bit graphics computer image processing system seem remember called image something akin anyway , claimed 48 bit color 12 bit alpha channel 's 60 bits info could possibly \? specifically 48 bit color \? 's 280 trillion colors , many human eye resolve anti aliasing thing \? magic number make work better certain processor hmm 48 bit aye \? well , beats 32 bit design thee sake 48 bit means 16 bits per primary colour 2 48 nr colours bit misleading makes sense see possible shades pure red might actually make sense , since 256 shades red \( 24 bit colours \) may produce visible intensity , byte per primary colour pixel elegant way colour graphics , leaves ya \( fast \) program code take care , bram flying trick bram stolk \( stolk fwi uva nl \) throw ground , dept maths computer science miss douglas adams university amsterdam , dont use ms windoze , prefer linux !
deniaud cartoon inria fr \( gilles deniaud \) subject help need 24 bits viewer keywords 24 bit lines 7 hi , i'm looking program able display 24 bits images using sun sparc equipped parallax graphics board running x11 thanks advance
unix1 tcd ie \( bones \) subject human body data sets needed urgently nntp posting host unix1 tcd ie organization trinity college , dublin lines 8 hi i'm looking datasets human body head popular formats i'm presentation tomorrow could greatly enhanced bringing factor 've looked around net sucess far anyone got ideas \? 'd also appreciate info location datasets uss enterprise \( model \) thanks advance ,
henson cc wwu edu \( charles \) subject illustrator autotrace poorly \? article henson 1993apr26 2273 organization western washington university lines 20 mac utkvx bitnet \( richard j mcdougald \) writes article 0010580b diablo uucp diablo uucp ! cboesel \( charles boesel \) writes application softwares 're using even , come one n't written \? \( knowledge \) mean , even hijaak , one commercial industry standards file conversion , n't attempted yet adobe streamline four couple years much better job functions built illustration programs course , higher resolution bitmap produce accurate trace problem 've run though , creates detailed trace , produces way points necessary trace something manually , use many less es points problem produces big files slow everything , especially printing chuck
lth se \( tomas moeller \) subject wanted scott microsoft organization lund institute technology , sweden lines 13 hello ! days ago got mail concerning bitmap stretching scott microsoft redmond wa , usa really would like answer back , lost email address scott anybody knows email address reads , please mail address answer mail please mail lth se thanks tomas
beck irzr17 inf tu dresden de \( andre beck \) subject pov problems tga outputs organization dept computer science , tu dresden , germany lines 10 distribution world reply andre beck irs inf tu dresden de nntp posting host irzr17 inf tu dresden de remember unix versions pov n't create tga qrt file format output default ft needed make tga brain inside andre' beck \( abpsoft \) mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de
beck irzr17 inf tu dresden de \( andre beck \) subject pov ray problem please help organization dept computer science , tu dresden , germany lines 13 distribution world reply andre beck irs inf tu dresden de nntp posting host irzr17 inf tu dresden de file dis file tga \? \? brain inside andre' beck \( abpsoft \) mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de
roy mchip00 med nyu edu \( roy smith \) subject illustrator autotrace poorly \? organization new york university , school medicine lines 47 nntp posting host mchip00 med nyu edu mac utkvx bitnet \( richard j mcdougald \) writes since 's \( really \) thing decent raster vector conversion program , tracing technique simple stuff , like b w logos , etc pretty well , complicated stuff goes haywire first thing 've ever tried auto trace piece chart using adobe illustrator 3 2 wanted get outline coast western long island sound simultaneously suprised good job disappointed poorly suspect gave difficult thing coastline irregular , overlaid chart numerous sets \( longitude , loran well \) common mistake make whenever coastline roughly parallel tangent grid line , would take following instead coast think best improvement would sort interactive algorithm would let step say , dummy , 're going wrong way steve , friend mine years back \( \) , doctoral work electron phage \( virii \) good chunk work writing program take digitized automatically trace centerline virus particles essentially problem illustrator tries solve auto trace tool respects problem steve worked harder , since trying quantitative analysis virus structure finding good centerline first step , step future analysis depended however , respects , easier problem since program could written lot knowledge virus particles supposed look like , analysis could restricted particles happend relatively straight , clean , well n't always freedom auto tracing real life images case , gave insight difficult problem solve general case \( \) steve longer us wife disappeared vacation hawaii couple years graduated last known location hiking densely mountainous area bodies ever found , presumed victim sort fall accident woods roy smith roy nyu edu project , department microbiology , coles 202 nyu school medicine , 550 first avenue , new york , ny 10016 never happened bart simpson
world std com \( david k \) subject rumours 3do \? \? \? organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 42 johnm lonestar org \( john munsch \) writes article viamar uucp rutgers ! viamar ! kmembry writes read issue 2 wired magazine long article hype 3do 've noticed every article talks designers great , never show pictures output \( least pictures one understand \) magazine published pictures months ago computer chronicles \( program syndicated public tv stations around nation \) spent several minutes shown ces impressive real time john munsch april 1993 edition mix magazine carries story 3do includes pictures unit , schematic 's inside indication people 3do intend go stages \( mix trade rag aimed professional sound engineering community \) schematic shows central dma engine connecting two graphics animation processors \( 32 bit bus \) , 32 bit risc processor math co processor , video module , control port , expansion port \( 3do hangs double fast cd player \) , 1mb dram , optional video port \( editing video \) outbound side 1mb vram video processor tv chain parallel dsp sound chain promise red book cd quality audio , full 30 fps video future connection path pc via pc expansion card informed enough opinion various means methods discussed article , written philip de , cover machines mentioned thread come pc tcp ip world see tremendous potential bringing educated consumer 3do seems right business partners make happen hope helps david email world std com
otol fi \( \) subject real 3d nntp posting host janus otol fi reply otol fi organization oulu institute technology lines 12 earlier today read ad real 3d animation ray tracing software looked convincing however , n't amiga began wonder , 's pc version , anyone seen used real 3d dos \? \? every word true , 2d 409 except lies oulu otol fi douglas adams
sean aries scs uiuc edu \( sean murphy \) subject info \? \? summary info \? keywords , 3d organization university illinois urbana lines 5 anyone seen \? buy poster looks like simple dot pattern first look focus behind see 3d picture i'm looking program generates pictures 's company texas makes doubt 're giving program away help would appreciated
sun csd unb ca \( \) subject cgm something \( preferably pcx \) organization university new brunswick , fredericton , nb , canada lines 13 anybody know converter cgm pcx anything else common 've spent time searching archives luck could email responses thx advance , mike g jupiter sun csd unb ca
lioness maple circa ufl edu subject kubota kenai denali \? organization center instructional research computing activities lines 11 reply lioness ufcc ufl edu nntp posting host maple circa ufl edu anyone real experience kubota kenai denali series graphics workstations \? pretty much blow pants sgi machines sun machines price point , 50 , 000 bucks real nice stuff , 've seen stuff paper i'm wondering , anything like \? specs massive get , summary desired could spec sheet brian
ct exploit \( danny \) subject ftp achive usgs terrain dat organization sun microsystems , inc lines 2 distribution world reply ct exploit nntp posting host sim es com try spectrum xerox com 192 70 225 78 pub map dem
matt dah dsv su se \( mattias \) subject real 3d organization dept computer systems sciences , stockholm university lines 17 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 \( otol fi \) wrote earlier today read ad real 3d animation ray tracing software looked convincing yes , looks like good indeed however , n't amiga began wonder , 's pc version nope regards email mattias matt dah dsv su se love
alan saturn cs swin oz au \( alan christiansen \) subject fast polygon routine needed organization swinburne university technology lines 49 nntp posting host saturn cs swin oz au keywords polygon , needed osprey ux4 cso uiuc edu \( lucas adamski \) writes article pdxgate uucp idr rigel cs pdx edu \( ian romanick \) writes kind polygons \? shaded \? \? hm \? comes play fast routines polygons would nice know exaclty system \( vga start , processor \? \) specifics implementation need give info want get answers ! p n't want texture mapped , cause 'd asked \) simple fast routine filled polygons processor , 'd minimum 286 maybe 386 ca n't find good one 286s ideally , want polyn function clip user defined viewport , write arbitrary location memory course chances ok game 3d listed characteristics looking think may left important parameters polygons convex less n sides \( drawing meshes walls doors etc \) believe algorithms get draw convex polygons much efficient draw concave self intersecting polygons efficiency largely attributed fact simple convex polygons left right edge scan line complex \( figure 8 type polygons \) bit trickier less n sides specification especially small number like 3 4 allow made thus high speed game application think looking code exploits hence limited drawing simple convex polygons finding something like pretty remote , guess 'd need source oh , guess would need asm otherwise 'd slow 've seen polygon routines c , 've slow 3d vector graphics program 've hunting high low may general purpose algorithms limit 3 four sided simple convex polygons think might suprised fast c algorithm asm block move fill scan line might actually polyn function asm , ca n't find one anywhere use 've found one two polyn functions , asm pretty bad , wo n't even try rewrite \) lucas
grieggs jpl devvax jpl nasa gov \( john grieggs \) subject \( \) comp graphics frequently asked questions \( faq \) originator grieggs nntp posting host reply grieggs grieggs jpl devvax jpl nasa gov organization jet propulsion laboratory , pasadena , ca expires mon , 10 may 1993 16 05 30 gmt lines 956 archive name graphics faq message automatically posted week effort cut repetitive junk comp graphics last changed answers frequently asked questions would like included posting , please send mail n't want see posting every week , please add subject line kill file thank copy faq couple weeks old , may want seek recent version latest version faq always available archive site pit manager mit edu \( alias rtfm mit edu \) pub usenet news answers graphics faq john john grieggs grieggs jpl devvax jpl nasa gov johng portal com last update sorry n't posted couple weeks , called town due death family reality , folks 's new \? siggraph online bibliography project \( spencer ohio state edu \) grieggs jpl devvax jpl nasa gov contents 1 \) general references graphics questions 2 \) drawing three dimensional objects two dimensional screen 3 \) quantizing 24 bit images 8 bits 4 \) converting color grayscale 5 \) quantizing grayscale black white 6 \) rotating raster image arbitrary angle 7 \) free image manipulation software 8 \) format documents tiff , iff , , nff , , fits , etc 9 \) converting vector formats 10 \) get pixar films 11 \) draw circle bezier \( b spline \) curve \? 12 \) order standards documents 13 \) ftp email 14 \) tell whether point within planar polygon 15 \) sphere 16 \) specific references ray tracing global illumination 17 \) siggraph information online 18 \) siggraph panels proceedings available 19 \) graphics mailing lists 20 \) specific references file formats 21 \) gif \? 22 \) morphing \? 23 \) ray trace height fields 24 \) find area 3d polygon 25 \) join acm siggraph 26 \) find mri ct scan volume data \? 27 \) specific references spatial data structures including 28 \) get program plot xy \( z \) data f \( x \) data \? 29 \) specific references pex phigs 30 \) siggraph online bibliography project 1 \) general references graphics questions computer graphics principles practice \( 2nd ed \) , j foley , van dam , k feiner , j f hughes , addison wesley 1990 , isbn 0 201 7 procedural elements computer graphics , david f rogers , mcgraw hill 1985 , isbn 0 07 5 mathematical elements computer graphics 2nd ed , david f rogers j alan adams , mcgraw hill 1990 , isbn 0 07 2 three dimensional computer graphics , alan watt , addison wesley 1990 , isbn 0 201 0 introduction ray tracing , andrew glassner \( ed \) , academic press 1989 , isbn 0 12 4 graphics gems , andrew glassner \( ed \) , academic press 1990 , isbn 0 12 5 graphics gems ii , james \( ed \) , academic press 1991 , isbn 0 12 0 graphics gems iii , david kirk \( ed \) , academic press 1992 , isbn 0 12 0 \( ibm disk \) 0 12 9 \( mac disk \) digital image warping , george , ieee computer society press monograph 1990 , isbn 0 8186 7 digital image processing \( 2nd ed \) , rafael c gonzalez , paul , addison wesley 1987 , isbn 0 201 1 programmer 's geometry , adrian , john , 1983 , isbn 0 408 0 automatic mail handler brown university allows users computer graphics principles practice , foley , van dam , feiner , hughes , obtain text errata information distribution software packages described book also , users send authors feedback , report text errors software bugs , make suggestions , submit exercises receive information describing use mail handler , simply mail cs brown edu put word help subject line use subject line software distribution receive information specifically concerning software packages srgp sphigs errata introduction ray tracing available wuarchive wustl edu graphics graphics books errata errata digital image warping directory digital image warping errata c code graphics gems series available via anonymous ftp princeton edu look directory pub graphics various volumes \( gems , , \) , get readme file first errata graphics gems graphics gems ii available wuarchive wustl edu graphics graphics books list computer graphics , computational geometry image processing journals available juhana kouhia , jk87377 cs tut fi 2 \) drawing three dimensional objects two dimensional screen simple answer , divide depth verbose explanation , see references , starting foley van dam feiner hughes computer graphics book certainly good start chapter 6 viewing 3d , read chapter 15 , visible surface determination information go chapter 16 shading , chapter 19 clipping , branch 3 \) quantizing 24 bit images 8 bits find copy color image quantization frame buffer display paul , siggraph '82 proceedings , page 297 algorithms , one works well fairly simple implementations included raster toolkits \( see item 7 \) variant method described graphics gems , p 287 293 note code graphics gems series available ftp site , described check john bradley 's diversity algorithm , incorporated xv package described back manual imagemagick package \( see section 7 \) contains another quantizing algorithm presented better job algorithms , slower 's also implementation wan , wong , , algorithm multidimensional data clustering , transactions mathematical software , vol 14 2 \( june , 1988 \) , pp 153 162 princeton edu pub graphics shar code , modified form , appears utah raster toolkit well 4 \) converting color grayscale ntsc formula luminosity 299 red 587 green 114 blue 5 \) quantizing grayscale black white reference need stuff digital , robert , mit press 1987 , isbn 0 262 6 go start coding , check image manipulation software mentioned item 7 packages mentioned form gray b w conversion 6 \) rotating raster image arbitrary angle obvious wrong method loop pixels source image , transform coordinate , copy pixel destination wrong leaves holes destination instead , loop pixels destination image , apply reverse transformation coordinates , copy pixel source method quite general , used one one 2 mapping , rotation add anti aliasing sub pixel sampling however , much faster method , included , involves three shear operations method originally created im raster toolkit \( see \) implementation also present pbmplus reference fast algorithm raster rotation , alan \( waterloo edu \) graphics interface '86 \( vancouver \) article im toolkit appears journal updated version rotation paper appears graphics gems \( see section 1 \) original title 7 \) free image manipulation software number toolkits converting one image format another , simple image manipulations size scaling , plus mentioned 24 8 , color gray , gray b w conversions pointers xv john bradley x based image display , manipulation , format conversion package xv displays many image formats permits editing gif files , among others program updated 5 92 see file contrib xv 2 21 tar z export lcs mit edu pbmplus , jef poskanzer comprehensive format conversion image manipulation package latest version always available via anonymous ftp ftp ee lbl gov pbmplus tar z , wuarchive wustl edu graphics graphics packages pbmplus pbmplus tar z , export lcs mit edu contrib pbmplus tar z im raster toolkit , alan \( uwaterloo ca \) provides portable efficient format related toolkit format versatile supporting pixels arbitrary channels , components , bit allowing compression machine byte order independence kit contains 50 tools extensive support image manipulation , digital format conversion previously distributed tape c university waterloo , ftp version appear someday utah rle toolkit conversion manipulation package , similar pbmplus available via ftp cs utah edu pub urt , princeton edu pub graphics urt , freebie engin umich edu pub urt fuzzy pixmap manipulation , michael mlm nl cs cmu edu conversion manipulation package , similar pbmplus version 1 0 available via ftp nl cs cmu edu usr mlm ftp fbm tar z , ftp uu net pub fbm tar z , ucsd edu graphics fbm tar z img software set , paul raveling raveling venera isi edu reads writes image format , displays x11 screen , image manipulations version 1 3 available via ftp export lcs mit edu contrib img 1 3 tar z , venera isi edu pub img 1 3 tar z along large collection color images xim , x image manipulator , philip r thompson essential interactive image manipulations uses x11r4 osf motif toolkit interface supports images 1 , 8 , 24 32 bit formats reads writes converts gif , xwd , xbm , tiff , rle , xim , formats writes level 2 postscript utilities image application library included paint package available via ftp gis mit edu xloadimage , jim frost std com reads images various formats displays x11 screen available via ftp export lcs mit edu contrib xloadimage , nearest comp sources x archive xli , gill , updated xloadimage numerous improvements speed number formats supported available places xloadimage \( contrib tape , comp sources x archives \) tiff software , sam leffler sam berkeley edu nice portable library reading writing tiff files , plus tools manipulating reading formats available via ftp ucbvax berkeley edu pub tiff tar z ftp uu net graphics tiff tar z xtiff , x11 tool viewing tiff file written handle many different kinds tiff files possible remaining simple , portable efficient xtiff illustrates common problems building pixmaps using different visual classes distributed part sam leffler 's libtiff package also available export lcs mit edu , ftp uu net comp sources x xtiff 2 0 announced 4 91 includes xlib xt versions alv , sun specific image toolkit version 2 0 6 posted comp sources sun also available via email alv users request cs ac uk , image manipulation language version 2 1 posted comp sources misc imagemagick , x11 package display interactive manipulation images includes tools image conversion , annotation , compositing , animation , creating imagemagick read write many popular image formats available via ftp export lcs mit edu contrib imagemagick tar z khoros , huge \( 100 meg \) graphical development environment based x11r4 khoros components include visual programming language , code generators extending visual language adding new application packages system , interactive user interface editor , interactive image display package , extensive library image signal processing routines , 2d 3d plotting packages available via ftp pprg eece unm edu pub khoros laboimage , sunview based image processing analysis package includes 200 image manipulation , processing measurement routines , line help , plus tools image editor , color table editor several biomedical utilities available via anonymous ftp ads com pub vision list archive shareware laboimage 3 1 tar z san diego supercomputer center image tools , software tools reading , writing , manipulating raster images binaries machines available via anonymous ftp sdsc edu independent jpeg group written package reading writing jpeg files ftp ftp uu net graphics jpeg jpegsrc v \? tar z n't forget set binary mode ftp tar files milnet folks still n't name servers , ip addresses ads com 128 229 30 16 cs utah edu 128 110 4 21 coral cs edu au 137 219 17 4 export lcs mit edu 18 24 0 12 freebie engin umich edu 141 212 103 21 ftp ee lbl gov 128 3 112 20 ftp uu net 137 39 1 9 192 48 96 9 gis mit edu 18 80 1 118 gondwana ecr mu oz au 128 250 70 62 karazm math uh edu 129 7 7 6 marsh cs curtin edu au 134 7 1 1 nic funet fir 128 214 6 100 ftp ncsa uiuc edu 141 142 20 50 nl cs cmu edu 128 2 222 56 pit manager mit edu 18 172 1 27 pprg eece unm edu 129 24 24 10 princeton edu 128 112 128 1 sdsc edu 132 249 20 22 ucbvax berkeley edu 128 32 133 1 venera isi edu 128 9 0 32 weedeater math yale edu 128 36 23 17 wuarchive wustl edu 128 252 135 4 zamenhof cs rice edu 128 42 1 75 please post mail messages saying ca n't ftp , could someone mail \? number automated mail servers send things like response message see item 13 details also , newsgroup alt graphics specifically discussion software like may find useful information 8 \) format documents tiff , iff , , nff , , fits , etc almost certainly n't need read item 7 free image manipulation software get one packages look chances excellent image converter going write already still want one format documents , many files available anonymous ftp zamenhof cs rice edu directory pub graphics formats files collected net believed correct archive includes pixel formats , two three dimensional object formats future archive uncertain moment , mark hall foo cs rice edu apparently longer maintaining second graphics file format archive actively maintained koziol \( koziol ncsa uiuc edu \) latest version exists ftp ncsa uiuc edu misc file formats graphics formats apparently , neither complete , might want check fits stands flexible image transport system 's file format often used astronomy despite name , contain images things well regular monthly fits basics information posting sci astro fits read want know 9 \) converting vector formats lot people ask converting hpgl postscript , macdraw cgm , whatever important understand different problem image format conversions item 7 converting one image format another fairly easy problem , since get past file header junk , pixel pixel basic objects image formats vector formats basic objects circles , ellipses , drop shadowed pattern filled round rectangles , etc vary one format another except extremely restricted cases , simply possible one one conversion vector formats software converting cgm files ftp psc edu contributor states runs unix , ms windows , possibly mac better , specific blurb would welcome hand , quite possible close approximation , rendering image one format using primitives another far know , one put together general toolkit converters , two different hpgl postscript converters posted comp sources misc check index nearest archive site related frequent question convert vector format bitmapped image postscript sun raster format , hpgl x11 bitmap example , commercial postscript clones pc 's allow render disk file well printer also , postscript interpreters next box sun 's x11 news used render file 're clever general , answer however , someone put together vector vector conversion toolkit , adding vector raster converter would trivial gnu ghostscript \( fsf current version 2 5 2 \) includes drivers ppm gif format files , thus used postscript ppm postscript gif filter \( implements essentially postscript level 1 alot display postscript level 2 \) 10 \) get pixar films various john pixar computer animated shorts available video tape order direct cinema limited film individual price institutional price luxo , jr 14 95 50 00 red 's dream 19 95 75 00 tin toy 24 95 75 00 24 95 75 00 luxo , jr red 's dream tin toy 39 95 100 00 tapes 1 2 vhs ntsc add 10 tape pal format also available tin toy shirt 15 00 3d shirt 15 00 \( includes glasses \) individual orders , add 5 h first tape shirt , 2 additional tape shirt institutional orders , add 5 h first tape , 3 additional tape foreign shipping , add 3 tape shirt call 800 525 0000 \( 213 396 international , 213 396 fax \) charge credit card call first verify prices availability , write direct cinema limited 1749 14th street santa monica , ca allan say siggraph selling tape four shorts 25 sale price get slightly normally \( 35 maybe \) believe 's available renderman retail \( pixar 's address \) pixar 1001 west cutting blvd richmond , ca \( 510 \) 236 4000 \( 510 \) 236 \( fax \) obtain video directly pixar contains luxo , jr , red 's dream , tin toy 25 00 , plus 2 50 shipping take order phone via fax major credit card ordered mine last week received several days later n't expect able rent copy local video store according license agreement printed back cover case , cannot rented 11 \) draw circle bezier \( b spline \) curve \? short answer , ca n't unless use rational spline approximate circle approximation may look acceptable , sensitive scale scale error approximation deviations circularity visible small become glaring large want job right , consult article rational b spline circles leslie wayne ieee computer graphics applications , volume 9 , number 9 , september , 1989 , pages 48 56 rough , non rational approximations , consult book computational geometry design manufacture j pratt , ellis publishers , halsted press , john wiley 1980 best known non rational approximations , consult article good approximation circles curvature continuous bezier curves tor , , tom , knut computer aided geometric design , volume 7 , numbers 1 4 \( combined \) , june , 1990 , pages 33 41 science publishers \( north holland \) 12 \) order standards documents american national standards institute sells ansi standards , also iso \( international \) standards sales office 1 212 642 4900 , mailing address 1430 broadway , ny ny helps complete name number useful numbers know cgm \( computer graphics metafile \) iso 4 \( 1987 \) gks \( graphical kernel system \) ansi x3 124 1985 phigs \( programmer 's hierarchical interactive graphics system \) ansi x3 144 1988 iges ansi y14 1987 language bindings often separate related numbers example , gks fortran binding x3 124 1 1985 standards progress made available key solicit comments graphical public \( includes ! \) ansi let know order available global engineering 1 800 854 13 \) ftp email number sites archive usenet sources newsgroups make available via email query system send message automated server saying something like send comp sources unix fbm , hours days later get file mail addition , least one ftp mail server send mail ftpmail decwrl dec com saying help tell use note service times turned due abuse 14 \) tell whether point within planar polygon consider ray originating point interest continuing infinity crosses odd number polygon edges along way , point within polygon ray crosses even number edges , point either outside polygon , within interior hole formed intersecting polygon edges idea known trade jordan curve theorem see eric article glassner 's ray tracing book \( \) information , including treatment special cases another method sum absolute angles point vertices polygon sum 2 pi , point inside , sum 0 point outside however , method order magnitude slower previous method evaluating functions usually quite costly code methods \( plus triangle testing \) found ray tracing news , vol 5 , 3 , available princeton edu pub graphics z 15 \) sphere one simple way recursive subdivision triangles base , level divides triangle four smaller ones jon leech leech cs unc edu posted nice routine called sphere c generates coordinates 's available ftp ftp ee lbl gov princeton edu 16 \) specific references ray tracing global illumination rick speer maintains cross indexed ray tracing bibliography highlights edition \) 500 citations period 1968 november '91 ii \) papers siggraph , graphics interface , , cg international proceedings december , '91 iii \) citations easy lookup iv \) cross indices keyword author v \) glossary 119 keywords used bib form postscript file printout 41 pages long list ftp sites contain file 's named speer raytrace bib ps z compressed sites site dir wuarchive wustl edu graphics graphics bib rt bib speer karazm math uh edu pub graphics gondwana ecr mu oz au pub papers nic funet fi pub sci papers graphics coral cs edu au graphics papers eric haines \( erich eye com \) maintains ray tracing radiosity global illumination bibliographies refer format , searched electronically \( simple awk script search keywords included \) bibliographies available sites listed , current versions maintained princeton edu pub graphics papers tom wilson \( wilson cs ucf edu \) collected 300 abstracts ray tracing related research papers books information essentially plaintext , latex troff formatting programs included collection available sites 17 \) siggraph information online steve cunningham ralph acm siggraph announces online information site siggraph org \( 128 248 245 250 \) site provides siggraph information via anonymous ftp electronic mail archive server anonymous ftp service standard , ftp directory includes conference publications subdirectories retrieve information electronic mail , send mail archive server siggraph org subject body message include message send followed topic wish good place start command send index give date list available information 18 \) siggraph panels proceedings available steve cunningham bob judd acm siggraph announces availability siggraph '91 panels proceedings siggraph org site \( 128 248 245 250 \) proceedings available three formats text \( ascii \) rtf \( rich text format , suitable many word processors \) word \( ms word macintosh \) may retrieved siggraph org two ways \( 1 \) anonymous ftp change one directories publications panels proceedings text rtf word text rtf files may downloaded ascii mode , word files stored macbinary format must downloaded binary mode directory contains table contents file \( \) describes contents panel file \( 2 \) electronic mail send mail archive server siggraph org retrieve either text rtf files suggest first retrieve index files putting one messages send txt index send rtf index subject body message get necessary information retrieve actual transcript files 19 \) graphics mailing lists variety graphics related mailing list , covering either single product single topic active participant one time , find focus expertise brought bear isolated topic nothing short amazing please send appropriate information others would like see added name imagine mailing list description discussion forum users imagine 3d rendering animation package impulse , inc platforms amiga , ibm subscription imagine request email sp paramax com posting imagine email sp paramax com name dctv mailing list description discussion forum users digital creations dctv box , software , file formats platforms amiga subscription dctv request nova cc purdue edu posting dctv nova cc purdue edu name rayshade users mailing list description discussion forum users rayshade raytracer platforms unix boxes , amiga , mac , ibm subscription rayshade request cs princeton edu posting rayshade users cs princeton edu name lightwave 3d software toaster mailing list description discussion forum users lightwave , video toaster modelling rendering package platforms amiga subscription lightwave request bobsbox rent com subscribe lightwave l message posting lightwave bobsbox rent com name pov mailing list description discussion forum dkbtrace pov renderers platforms unix subscription listserv trearn bitnet posting dkb l trearn bitnet name mailing list massive parallel rendering description \? platforms unix subscription mp render request icase edu posting mp render icase edu 20 \) specific references file formats graphics file formats , david kay john levine , windcrest mcgraw hill 1992 , isbn 0 8306 7 paper , isbn 0 8306 0 36 95 hardcover , isbn 0 8306 7 24 95 paper comments 26 formats , software \( good , imho prefer books non platform dependent \) questions book may sent iecc cambridge us 21 \) gif \? gif stands graphics interchange format portable usable upon wide variety platforms quite limited ways \( yes , keeper faq opinions \) , fact , n't like much however , looks like frequently asked question previously covered list following list newsgroups like one could go find gif subject alt binaries pictures faq general info subject alt binaries pictures faq os specific info newsgroups alt binaries pictures , alt binaries pictures misc , alt binaries pictures utilities , alt binaries pictures fractals , alt binaries pictures fine art , news answers available indicated usenet newsgroup \( \) , via anonymous ftp pit manager mit edu files pub usenet news answers pictures faq part1 pub usenet news answers pictures faq part2 also available mail server pit manager mit edu sending mail message containing send usenet news answers pictures faq part1 send usenet news answers pictures faq part2 send message containing help get general information mail server also , could check resources described sections 7 , 8 , 20 information 22 \) morphing \? warping image mapping pixel new location morphing one image object another one valerie hall written excellent introduction warping morphing available anonymous ftp marsh cs curtin edu au directory pub graphics bibliography morph three files morph intro ps z \( postscript version , many pictures 1 5m \) morph intro txt z \( text version \) responses z \( responses morphing questions \) files compressed , must use binary transfer uncompress afterwards 23 \) ray trace height fields height fields special case ray tracing number uses , terrain rendering , optimization possible thus , get faq section note references doubt located via ray tracing section 16 following paper seems definitive reference f kenton grid tracing fast ray tracing height fields july , 1988 musg88 ps z available research report dcs rr 639 yale university , 's also siggraph '91 fractal modeling 3d computer graphics imaging course notes , \( best \) 's available net nic funet fi pub sci papers musg88 ps z weedeater math yale edu pub papers musg88 ms z princeton edu pub graphics papers musg88 ms z coral cs edu au graphics papers musg88 ps z gondwana ecr mu oz au pub papers musg88 ms z musg88 ps z implementation paper may found rayshade another paper exists david w sidney petersen parametric height field ray tracing j proceedings graphics interface '92 canadian information processing society c toronto , ontario may 1992 p 192 200 still one , kolb , mace synthesis rendering eroded fractal , computer graphics vol 23 , 3 \( siggraph '89 \) p 41 50 24 \) find area 3d polygon area triangle given \( c notation \) , area 0 5 \( \( x 0 1 \) \( x 1 2 \) \( x 2 0 \) \( x 1 0 \) \( x 2 1 \) \( x 0 2 \) \) area planar polygon given area 0 0 \( 0 n 1 \) area \( x 1 \) \( x 1 \) area \( x n 1 0 \) \( x 0 n 1 \) area 2 0 area negative number , polygon triangle clockwise , positive , counterclockwise ronald 's gem \( graphics gems ii see section 1 \) , area planar polygons volume polyhedra area polygon p0 , p1 , p2 , pn , x plane , given area \( polygon \) 1 2 n sigma pk x pk 1 n unit vector normal plane p polygonal vertex represents dot product operator x represents cross product operator sigma represents operator represents absolute value operator pn 1 equal p0 25 \) join acm siggraph probably easiest way join acm siggraph trot local technical library find copy communications acm somewhere within first pages application blank fill mail acm membership students costs 23 00 , voting associate membership 77 00 \( yearly \) siggraph student membership costs additional 16 00 , 26 00 voting associate members \( also yearly \) get tog \( transactions graphics \) 's another 26 00 students 31 00 voting associate members want join siggraph without joining acm , 'll cost 59 00 \( student discount \) overseas publications acm member services may contacted via email bitnet phone number \( 212 \) 626 0500 fax number \( 212 \) 944 snailmail address acm po box church street station new york , new york siggraph held anaheim , california , anaheim convention center \( street disneyland \) august 1 6 , 1993 26 \) find mri ct scan volume data \? volume data sets available university north carolina omicron cs unc edu \( 152 2 128 159 \) pub softlab chvrtd \( commerical use prohibited \) head data 109 slice mri data set human head knee data 127 slice mri data set human knee data result quantum mechanical calculation sod data one electron orbital , iron protein sod data electron density map active site sod \( \) ct head data 113 slice mri data set ct study head mr brain data 109 slice mri data set head skull partially removed reveal brain rna data electron density map 27 \) specific references spatial data structures including h , design analysis spatial data structures , addison wesley , reading , , 1990 isbn 0 201 0 h , applications spatial data structures computer graphics , image processing , nd gis , addison wesley , reading , , 1990 isbn 0 201 0 28 \) get program plot xy \( z \) data f \( x \) data \? gnuplot command driven interactive data function plotting program runs machine , flexible terms supported output devices official north american distribution site latest version dartmouth edu pub gnuplot information available usenet newsgroup comp graphics gnuplot faq , graphics gnuplot faq ace gr \( xmgr motif xvgr xview \) data function plotting tool workstations x terminals using x available ftp ccalmr ogi edu ccalmr pub acegr \( robot \) general purpose plotting data analysis program requires xview , x terminal workstation available sunsite unc edu pub academic data analysis xgraph popular two dimensional plotting program accepts data form similar unix program graph displays line graphs , scatter plots , bar charts x11 display available ic berkeley edu pub program drawing 2d plots x10 x11 windows , sunview displays , terminals available berkeley edu src local 29 \) specific references pex phigs pexlib programming manual , tom gaskins , 1154 pages , o'reilly associates , isbn 1 7 pexlib reference manual , edited steve , 577 pages , o'reilly associates , isbn 1 5 phigs programming manual , tom gaskins , 908 pages , o'reilly associates , isbn 0 85 4 \( \) , isbn 0 937175 92 7 \( \) phigs reference manual , edited linda , 1099 pages , o'reilly associates , isbn 0 937175 91 9 30 \) siggraph online bibliography project acm siggraph online bibliography project database 15 , 000 unique computer graphics computational geometry references bibtex format , available computer graphics community research educational resource database located siggraph org users may download bibtex files via ftp peruse offline , telnet siggraph org log biblio interactively search database entries interest , keyword additions corrections suggestions may directed admin , siggraph org john grieggs \( telos jet propulsion laboratory \) 4800 oak grove drive , pasadena , ca 91109 525 3660 \( 818 \) 306 uucp cit vax , elroy , ! jpl devvax ! grieggs arpa jpl devvax ! grieggs cit vax arpa
donc cognos com \( campbell \) subject avi flc converter organization cognos incorporated , ottawa canada lines 18 looking small utility convert microsoft video \( avi \) file autodesk animator pro \( flc \) file since also contain sound , would nice utility also stored sound track wav file currently i'm accomplishing saving avi multiple using video windows , converting dib gif , loading gifs animator sound , load original avi save seperate wav file requires many steps productive help greatly appreciated thanks campbell internet donc cognos com uucp cognos ! donc cognos inc mail p box , riverside drive , \( 613 \) 738 1440 ottawa ontario , canada
hawks seq uncwil edu \( david hawks \) subject turning photographic images thermal print negatives summary help keywords adobe photoshop , thermal print , negatives , help organization univ north carolina wilmington lines 22 know hitting right news groups , help right direction welcome need help finding company take photographic images scanned modified adobe photoshop turn thermal prints negatives looking place close north carolina possible images created macintosh quadra 800 running adobe photoshop stored whatever format vendor requires , perhaps cartridges \? images black white photographs scanned 1200 dpi scanner modified corrected adobe photoshop anyone could help even give phone numbers people could would grateful also anyone else planning would happy hear advice might provide computer system use peripherals software seemed quadra 800 would best bet modify photographic images planning buying quadra 800 ram , hard drive , 1200 dpi scanner , 17 sony monitor cartridge drive perhaps cd rom new computers advice would great david hawks seq uncwil edu hawks dw wl com
wang cs indiana edu subject need help find address several companies graphics organization computer science , indiana university lines 9 1 \) lucas film 2 \) pixar 3 \) 3d eye inc 4 \) light magic thanks , cs indiana edu
dsg ecrc de \( douglas greer \) subject research positions 3d graphics , munich , germany originator dsg houdini reply dsg ecrc de \( douglas greer \) organization european computer industry research centre , munich lines 36 european computer research centre research positions 3d graphics ecrc currently expanding research staff three dimensional graphics looking highly qualified researchers phd computer science proven ability conduct highly innovative research preference given candidates strong experience developing implementing algorithms three dimensional graphics , visualization user interaction presently positions available experienced researchers recent graduates candidates especially strong backgrounds may considered positions visiting scientists ph student research positions european computer industry research centre located munich , germany english working language centre funded consortium major computer companies , mission pursue research fundamental areas computer science active areas research include visualization user interfaces , distributed computing , parallelism , deductive systems databases center employs 45 researchers 21 different nationalities small rapidly growing graphics group currently investigating new methods three dimensional human computer interaction integration computer vision computer graphics technology center extensive computing facilities includes sun workstations , apple macintoshes , well equipped graphics laboratory network access super computer facilities ecrc offers competitive salaries excellent benefits immediate consideration , send written application curriculum , telephone number , e mail address , references douglas greer , ecrc gmbh , 17 , 8000 munich 81 , germany
baer qiclab scn rain com \( ken baer \) subject wanted playmation info article qiclab 1993apr26 organization scn research qic laboratories tigard , oregon lines 19 article 1993apr22 osf org omar godzilla osf org \( mark marino \) writes hi folks , anyone copy playmation 'd willing sell 'd love try , retail playmation available direct associates 299 's hard beat price also , 'd better newer version older version bugs long since clobbered thanks advance , mark marino omar osf org uunet ! osf ! omar ken baer programmer animator , hash enterprises usenet baer qiclab uucp applelink office \( 206 \) 573 , 're anymore , 're riding ! ren
problem inews gateway file \( keith \) subject 48 bit graphics organization computer science department , boston university , boston , , usa lines 29 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 sane \( oehler yar cs wisc edu \) wrote recently talking possible employer \( mine ! \) \) made reference 48 bit graphics computer image processing system seem remember called image something akin anyway , claimed 48 bit color 12 bit alpha channel 's 60 bits info could possibly \? specifically 48 bit color \? 's 280 trillion colors , many human eye resolve anti aliasing thing \? magic number make work better certain processor i'm pretty sure industry strength image processing specific systems \( e photo processing gear \) use much 96 bits color info \? , oversampling never bad idea especially hardware 's task image manipulation , photographers demand professional results also , settle bet roommate , sgi 's flagship products \? know iris , indigo , crimson , ones , top line \? \( sadly , access none dec 5000 25 sigh \) strange question , anyway , 's vgx line , newer indigo 2 , onyx systems new big boys block \( get 24 processor system twice graphics performance reality engine \) 's , n't handy periodic table sgi 's keith
davidr rincon ema rockwell com \( david j ray \) subject info \? \? organization rockwell international x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 lines 11 sean murphy \( sean aries scs uiuc edu \) wrote anyone seen \? buy poster looks like simple dot pattern first look focus behind see 3d picture i'm looking program generates pictures 's company texas makes doubt 're giving program away help would appreciated program included book virtual reality let generate pictures 's powerful program acceptable job experimentation purposes davidr rincon ema rockwell com
brunel ac uk \( sunil gupta \) subject message cgcad bart inescn pt organization brunel university , uxbridge , uk x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 2 cant get author rtrace site inaccessible upload new version somewhere else please \?
edimg willard atl ga us \( ed pimentel \) subject 2nd rfd open telematic group realtime multimedia online apps organization willard 's house bbs , atlanta , ga 1 \( 404 \) 664 8814 lines 74 rfd request discussion open telematic group otg proposed forming consortium task force promotion naplps jpeg , openly discuss ways , method , procedures , algorythms , applications , implementation , extensions naplps jpeg standards standards facilitate creation real time online applications make use voice , video , , hires graphics , conferencing , distant learning , online order entry , fax , addition would assist better understand sgml , , , mime , , jpeg , mpeg , fractals , sql , cdrom , , kodak photocd , tcl , v fast , eia , best incorporated implemented develop telematic multimedia applications want able support dos , unix , mac , windows , nt , os 2 platforms hope individuals , developers , corporations , universities , r labs would join supporting endeavor would profit group bylaws charter already many corporation decided support otg \( open telematic group \) delay joining developer rfd posted form usenet newsgroup faq soon compose start known subject would like added send email mail address group would publish electronic quarterly naplps jpeg newsletter well hardcopy version urge wants see cmcs hires based applications naplps jpeg g r w , decide join mutually benefit profit endeavor note telematic defined mr james martin marriage voice , video , hi res graphics , fax , , music telephone lines lan would like get involve write img inter multimedia group internet world std com p box ed pimentel gisatl fidonet org atlanta , georgia , us cis , fidonet 1 133 407 bbs 1 404 985 1198 zyxel 14 4k responded trying acknowledge soon possible really org , corp , edu willing get involve would nice upon responded state capacity willing get involve edimg willard atl ga us \( ed pimentel \) gatech ! kd4nc ! ! willard ! edimg emory ! ! willard ! edimg willard 's house bbs , atlanta , ga 1 \( 404 \) 664 8814
craig nsr hp com \( craig \) subject 3ds normal array \? \? \? organization hewlett packard neely golden gate area \( northern calif \) lines 12 anyone truely understand invalid normal array error 3ds gives rendering \? seems present rendering complicated images problem rendering command line , however would nice render inside editor memory problem \? \? \? craig
ecs comm mot com \( david lau \) subject format gif files \? organization motorola nntp posting host 145 1 161 169 lines 11 could anyone tell format gif files would like know could determine size picture also , gif files compressed format \? many bits store pixel color information \? \( simple question , could n't find faq \) email responses would david lau ecs comm mot com
iitmax iit edu \( stephen bacon \) subject 48 bit graphics organization illinois institute technology academic computing center lines 18 good reason \( many companies use \) 48 bits pixel use double buffering \( animating scenes \) e 2 24 bit planes write one background , flip ! entire screen updates second image plane screen updates one refresh n't see different objects appearing order 're drawn \( cad macdraw effect \) ready update image used foreground steve \( iitmax iit edu iris iit edu \) sg product line even keep track nowadays \? every co seems \( ads press releases claim \) redefine computing \( etc etc \) know new product progress competition great , wants invest system 's obsolete time reaches desk \? \)
rmalayte moliere helios nd edu \( ryan malayter \) subject illustrator autotrace poorly \? organization university notre dame , notre dame lines 22 article 0010580b diablo uucp diablo uucp ! cboesel \( charles boesel \) writes 've trying figure way get adobe illustrator auto trace exactly see screen misses edges templates many 6 pixels resulting images useless need exact tracing , approximate 've tried adjusting freehand tolerances well autotrace tolerances n't help suggestions \? buy adobe streamline problem solved college men get smashed break something , college women get smashed get broken robin wilson president , ryan p malayter chico state university 332 stanford hall notre dame , 46556 n dept physics comp sci malayter nd edu
slack sim es com \( tim \) subject pc vga driver available via ftp \? organization evans sutherland computer corporation lines 9 reply slack sim es com nntp posting host slack user bbs accidentally deleted vga driver card backup wondering someone knew ftp site \( path , please ! \) thing might obtained thanks religion man good curry call lizard 's den bbs \( 801 \) usenet , , , pc amiga tim aberrant analytical skeptical agnostic idealist exclusively represent
jesse eye com \( jesse \) subject fast polygon routine needed keywords polygon , needed organization 3d eye , inc ithaca , ny lines 20 article cc swin edu au alan saturn cs swin oz au \( alan christiansen \) writes believe algorithms get draw convex polygons much efficient draw concave self intersecting polygons efficiency largely attributed fact simple convex polygons left right edge scan line complex \( figure 8 type polygons \) bit trickier true convex algorithm faster general concave multi outline algorithm , tremendously faster spent awhile implementing optimizing flavors , convex turned 10 faster c \( hp pa risc compiler got inner loop shooting span fast possible , far could tell \) sort game database render known ahead time , made convex definitely way go p sorry code cannot made public domain jesse jesse 3d eye , inc , ithaca ny jesse eye com \( 607 \) 257
st nepean uws edu au \( daniel \) subject fast polygon routines needed organization university western sydney , nepean x newsreader tin 1 1 pl4 lines 16 looking fast polygon routines \( shaded texture mapped \) asm \( compile \) turbo pascal \( compile \) able run 286 , look super fast 286 , must look good 386 anyone code could please mail tell got thanks advance daniel genius one step away university western sydney , nepean insanity ! aarnet internet st nepean edu au , already !
peter trl oz au \( peter k campbell \) subject virtual reality x cheap ! organization telecom research labs , melbourne , australia lines 28 ridout bink plk af mil \( brian ridout \) writes article 1993apr15 mfltd co uk , sts mfltd co uk \( steve sherwood \( x5543 \) \) writes anyone got multiverse work \? built 486 svr4 , mips sun sparcstation seems many bugs simply nothing \( fixing bug variable defined twice two different modules one needed setting static else client core dumped \) steve extn 5543 , sts mfltd co uk , ! uunet ! mfocus ! sts 've tried compiling several sparcstations gcc 2 22 fixing bugs \( 3 missing constant definitions plus couple things \) got compile link , starting client server get black window sometimes client core dumps , sometimes server , sometimes get broken pipe , sometimes sits nothing although occassionally get cursor become cross hair dog fight , 's 've sent word author plus fix last week , reply yet peter k campbell p campbell trl oz au
bcstec ca boeing com \( kevin shin \) subject graph traversal algorithms organization boeing lines 14 hi , everyone currently planning write program image handwritten characters ascii format produces circle line representation handwritten characters anybody experiences problem \? would post e mail please kevin anyone program digital image produces circle line kevin shin bcstec ca boeing com
dfr navy mil \( prof rogers \( eas fac \) \) subject newsgroup split organization u naval academy lines 23 article mach1 wlu ca mach1 wlu ca \( phil martin u \) writes ! chris herringshaw \( tdawson engin umich edu \) wrote ! concerning proposed newsgroup split , personally favor ! learn awful lot aspects graphics reading ! group , code hardware algorithms think making 5 ! different groups wate , result posts ! week per group kind like convenience one big forum ! discussing aspects graphics anyone else feel way \? ! curious ! ! yes also like knowing go ask question without getting ! hell putting wrong newsgroup also splitting group traffic decrease given subject required net bandwidth increase multiply cross postings went another group continuously read almost point longer worth reading strongly suggest dave rogers
17 dali nosubdomain nodomain \( \) subject wanted grayscale dithering routine nntp posting host dali math chalmers se organization chalmers university technology lines 15 color gifs would like archive much smaller size using grayscale palette 16 shades quantization 16 grays ugly bands pictures , nicely eliminated dithering used xv process images , would like automate procedure problem xv ca n't \( think \) convert images automatically , obvious alternative \( ppmquant \) n't even get close xv 's quality apparently rgb , even though images grayscale dithering routine xv seems use natural image colors dither similar routine available public domain \? , \? 17 math chalmers se
slinky ims \( sam \) subject , kept \? keywords reply cs nyu edu organization sun microsystems lines 8 i'm told available internet wanted know thanks advance cs nyu edu
gord jericho uucp \( gord wait mos systems vancouver design center \) subject rumours 3do \? \? \? organization mos systems , inc \( vancouver design center \) lines 14 article 1993apr15 164940 11632 mercury unt edu sean mcmains mcmains unt edu writes wow ! 68070 ! 'd interested get hands one , especially considering fact motorola yet released 68060 , supposedly next 680x0 lineup 8 68070 made someone motorola \( signetics perhaps \) , \( memory serves correctly \) 68000 compatible single chip micro type chip ie built extra toys like serial ports , ram interfaces etc , laugh want , critter ! gord wait systems vancouver design centre uunet ! jericho ! gord gord jericho uunet uu net even days
mpdillon halcyon com \( michael dillon \) subject mgr naplps gui bbs organization world information fingertips lines 46 nntp posting host nwfocus wa com hi , looking methods use turn linux based bbs full color graphical bbs supports pc , mac , linux , amiga callers originally inspired naplps graphics standard \( summary hit group 2 weeks ago \) posted document \( forgot part 1 6 etc \) summary , complete technical description protocol simtel wuarchive wustl edu mirrors msdos naplps following software availability naplps supporting software find terminal programs commercial resonable shareware one runs msdos machines leaving mac amiga users buy full commercial software want try bbs \( know would n't \) next interesting possibility port mgr pc , mac , amiga write naplps decoder choice platform release code net \? willing souls help port platforms naplps designed type online interactive graphics much x , x intended high bandwidth network connections , naplps optimized low bandwidth modem connections color version mgr linux \? anyone suggestions linux based gui bbs \? i'm sure receive suggestions look way wanted provide full network connection linux modem would use slip ppp would invent new way \? people would say slip ppp exist reasonably well designed protocols , lets implement see way naplps existing , well thought , extensible protocol online graphics , implement need advice implementation , e mail currently getting beta version coreldraw naplps converter working well enough release may 15 someone else get going freely available naplps decoder , intend get conversion program beta , get couple things done michael dillon internet mpdillon halcyon halcyon com c 4 powerhouse fidonet 1 353 350 rr 2 armstrong , bc voice 1 604 546 canada bbs 1 604 546
cc newcastle edu au subject patches 1 \? lines 17 organization university newcastle , australia due number bugs 1 sunos 4 1 3 , installed patches 15 01 patch 15 appears work fine fixed number problems patch 01 , however , required fix number annoying bugs , breaks applications recent revision patch \? ideas \? scott sloan email cc newcastle edu au university newcastle fax 61 49 nsw australia
matt dah dsv su se \( mattias \) subject psygnosis cd titles \( rumours 3do \? \? \? \) organization dept computer systems sciences , stockholm university lines 12 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 mark samson \( samson prlhp1 prl philips co uk \) wrote speaking psygnosis , licensed games philips media international cd commodore cdtv regards email mattias matt dah dsv su se love
subject front end povray comp vuw ac nz \( \) organization dept comp sci , victoria uni wellington , new zealand keywords povray nntp posting host regent comp vuw ac nz lines 19 g 'day ! anyone know anything front end povray \( x11 version \) \? mean things like user friendly modeller povray , let design scene produce file povray read \? cheers , tm comp vuw ac nz new zealand tm comp vuw ac nz new zealand
ee ac za \( \) subject vatican library organization electrical computer engineering , university pretoria lines 8 nntp posting host mccartney ee ac za vatican library recently made tour us anyone help finding ftp site collection available thanx advance j watson
pi ac jp \( 03 95 \) subject tiff philosophical significance 42 organization tokyo institute tech , precision intelligence lab , japan lines 23 reply se92psh brunel ac uk 's message wed , 21 apr 1993 08 29 03 gmt wed , 21 apr 1993 08 29 03 gmt , se92psh brunel ac uk \( peter hauke \) said peter joachim lous \( joachim kih \) wrote peter anyone suggestions 42 came \? peter yep , 's theory heard bandied around rather thinking peter number think sound tea two sort anagram tea two , peter two tea , tea two un suggestion tea ! two many things possible think binary , , n , l r , f wonder eve adam ! peter \) \) \) cooperate agree , forgive disagree hassan el
cs uct ac za \( adrian \) subject raytracing colours \? keywords raytracer colours realism vectors organization computer science department , university cape town lines 25 question recursive , backward raytracing incident ray \( \) strikes object point p , first normal \( n \) calculated light rays calculated \( l1 ln n number light sources \) light rays intersect anything reflected ray \( r \) transmitted ray \( \) calculated formulae calling routine r return colours along rays \( r \) object colour light source \( 1 n \) question combine , , 's get correct resulting colour return along ray \? colours defined \( records \) r , g , b components 0 1 anyone done could give hints \? adrian cs uct ac za
doug hparc0 aus hp com \( doug parsons \) subject 48 bit graphics organization hp australasian response centre \( melbourne \) lines 7 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 5 apollo \( hp \) graphics board 80 bit graphics heard , jumped answer n't 100 trillion trillion trillion colors actually 10 planes 8 bits \( 5 planes 16 bits , etc \) fast graphics
tor abo fi \( laaksonen dc \) subject language \? organization bo akademi university , finland distribution comp graphics lines 25 hi ! old fr 1 35mm film recorder connected pc processor card directly take hpgl , targa language files 24 bit targa quite ok raster images , conversion whatever one happens quite slow language seems \( got source file one test image \) vector based language handle one million colors polygons , perhaps something else \? question , find information language \? ftp site , book , company address , \? \( ok , would nice windows driver , i'm optimistic \) thanks advance help ! laaksonen computing centre bo akademi university , finland
bockamp informatik tu muenchen de \( florian bockamp \) subject matrox pg 1281 cv windows driver originator bockamp informatik tu muenchen de organization technische universitaet muenchen , germany lines 22 hi ! need windows 3 1 driver matrox pg 1281 cv svga card moment windows runs 640x480 mode driver card , please send inf bockamp informatik tu muenchen de thanks ! florian bockamp ''' bockamp informatik tu muenchen de \( \) ooo \( \) ooo 's bug , 's undocumented feature !
dfr navy mil \( prof rogers \( eas fac \) \) subject help needed hidden line removal keywords hidden line graphics 3d distribution comp organization u naval academy lines 37 article raynor cs scarolina edu raynor cs scarolina edu \( harold brian raynor \) writes looking information hidden line removal using roberts algorithm something code , pseudo code would especially helpful required class , due monday \( little time implement changes , fast paced class \) notes given class leave lot desired , would vastly appreciate help actually algorithm would nice \( roberts \) main problem two objects intersecting x dimensions , need know lines clip one object appear front another give ftp address filename , even name good book , 'd really appreciate g 'day brian , 'll blunt reasonable explanation roberts algorithm procedural elements computer graphics rogers mcgraw hill book co 1985 go library look also somewhat explanation first edition newman algorithm described runs near linear time luck , dave rogers
sapphire zed com \( rickey thomas tom \) subject wanted , screen dump vga screen organization project zed lines 14 one dump printer , content vga screen text screen , execute shift graphics , pixel print would greatly appreciated someone supply source code alternately , commercial shareware programs available must able shell program execute print screen therefore , would source code thank advance rickey tom internet style ! uu2 psi com programmer analyst project ze uucp ! uunet ! ! !
lilley v5 cgu mcc ac uk \( chris lilley \) subject coreldraw bitmap scodal lines 21 reply c c lilley mcc ac uk organization computer graphics unit , mcc article zephyr grace cri nz , srlnjal grace cri nz writes anyone know software allow convert coreldraw \( cdr \) files containing bitmaps scodal , format bureau 's corel draw version 2 onwards version 1 perhaps upgrade order another alternative would use different bureau take postscript chris lilley technical author , itti computer graphics visualisation training project computer graphics unit , manchester computing centre , oxford road , manchester , uk m13 9pl internet c c lilley mcc ac uk voice 44 \( 0 \) 61 275 6045 fax 44 \( 0 \) 61 275 6040 janet c c lilley uk ac mcc
raj phys ksu edu \( raj \) subject needed plotting package organization kansas state university lines 28 nntp posting host phys ksu edu alta oh com chris zeus alta oh com \( chris murphy \) writes article full gl dolphin pts mot com , full gl pts mot com \( glen fullmer \) writes looking graphics cad whatever package x unix box take file records like hi , see roger 's response help network visualization comp graphics visualization could someone please post roger 's response \? point could find \? thanks lot , raj dept physics raj phys ksu edu kansas state university manhattan , ks raj dept physics raj phys ksu edu kansas state university manhattan , ks
ii uib \( torgeir veimo \) subject c classes graphics organization institutt informatikk uib norway lines 16 i'm planning writing several classes build raytracing radiosity library top , i'm wondering like freely available net go need classes like rays , vectors , colors , , surfaces , media , primitives , worlds \( containing primitives \) views images please post mail torgeir veimo studying university bergen i'm gona wave freak flag high ! \( hendrix \) would okay day ! \( police \)
lilley v5 cgu mcc ac uk \( chris lilley \) subject xv problems lines 46 reply c c lilley mcc ac uk organization computer graphics unit , mcc article cc tut fi , jk87377 lehtori cc tut fi \( kouhia juhana \) writes recent discussion xv 's problems held newsgroup text users xv might find interesting \( also minor ideas 24bit xv , e mail \) deleted space basically complaints xv 8 bit program making several modifications rgb sliders slow screen updates reverse order 1 \) try clicking auto apply box switch make mods click apply problem stated already solved look carefully 2 \) yes xv 8 bit program bug edit individual entries global colour changes crop , scale etc clearly program must save altered image else work would thrown away yes saves 8 bit images course ! xv import 24 bit images 8 bits handy facility , bug would suggest colour editing 24 bit file \? would group 'related' colours edit together \? global changes could done unless software different much complicated want colour editing 24 bit image , need much powerfull software readily available commercially lastly , jpeg compression algorithm applied image arbitrary bit depth , bug way saving disk space \) later , chris lilley technical author , itti computer graphics visualisation training project computer graphics unit , manchester computing centre , oxford road , manchester , uk m13 9pl internet c c lilley mcc ac uk voice 44 \( 0 \) 61 275 6045 fax 44 \( 0 \) 61 275 6040 janet c c lilley uk ac mcc
tgl cs cmu edu \( tom lane \) subject vatican library summary 's info nntp posting host g gp cs cmu edu organization school computer science , carnegie mellon lines 87 reposted request images great , also large \( pixels typical size \) warned regards , tom lane cyclops eece unm edu \( roger \) newsgroups comp archives subject rec arts books vatican library exhibit library congress online date 14 feb 1993 22 02 59 gmt x original newsgroups rec arts books x original date 1 feb 1993 03 09 17 gmt archive name auto rec arts books vatican library exhibit library congress online another newsgroup looks quite interesting rms announcing new online exhibit library congress rome reborn vatican library renaissance culture exhibit library congress washington , dc 20540 available anonymous ftp seq1 loc gov \( 140 147 3 12 \) pub vatican exhibit rome reborn vatican library renaissance culture presents 200 vatican library 's precious manuscripts , books , maps many played key role humanist recovery classical heritage greece rome exhibition presents untold story vatican library intellectual driving force behind emergence rome political scholarly renaissance exhibit display jefferson building library congress january 8 , 1993 april 30 , 1993 online exhibit available anonymous ftp indefinitely exhibit divided nine \( 9 \) sections vatican library , archaeology , humanism , mathematics , music , medicine biology , nature described , wider world orient came rome , wider world ii rome went china section consists sub directory within exhibit directory contains exhibit text section separate jpeg image files object online exhibit includes objects library congress exhibit , also alternate objects \( brought rome used problem one primary objects \) items omitted later planning process exhibit interest medieval renaissance scholars particular , also art historians , historians science medicine , early music scholars , students humanist movement , students printing printed word , theologians , scholars far near eastern studies , information professionals please get readme file details files exhibit contains questions use ftp , speak local computer support person questions comments content exhibit , please write vatican kell loc gov questions comments system please contact k ellis k ellis special projects office library congress washington , dc 20540 9100 internet kell seq1 loc gov
lilley v5 cgu mcc ac uk \( chris lilley \) subject coreldraw bitmap scodal \( 2 \) lines 38 reply c c lilley mcc ac uk organization computer graphics unit , mcc article zephyr grace cri nz , srlnjal grace cri nz writes yes aware coreldraw exports scodal version 2 quite well , apart hassles radial fills version 3 better try export scodal bitmap image included drawing say something like cannot export scodal bitmap least version oh ok , sorry misunderstanding anyone knows way around ears temporal images make product called converts autocad plots scodal , postscript scodal gif scodal costs 650 wondering anything bitmap scodal part tad cheaper maybee persuade 650 become much competitive , taking input autocad , postscript well seriously , sounds like something bureau find another bureau one software chris lilley technical author , itti computer graphics visualisation training project computer graphics unit , manchester computing centre , oxford road , manchester , uk m13 9pl internet c c lilley mcc ac uk voice 44 \( 0 \) 61 275 6045 fax 44 \( 0 \) 61 275 6040 janet c c lilley uk ac mcc
lilley v5 cgu mcc ac uk \( chris lilley \) subject adobe photo shop type software unix x motif platforms \? keywords image enhancement lines 18 reply c c lilley mcc ac uk organization computer graphics unit , mcc article world std com , wdm world std com \( wayne michael \) writes searching quality image enhancement manipulation package unix x motif platforms comparable adobe photo shop mac corel draw 4 able include stuff pc version got version 3 n't hold breath though chris lilley technical author , itti computer graphics visualisation training project computer graphics unit , manchester computing centre , oxford road , manchester , uk m13 9pl internet c c lilley mcc ac uk voice 44 \( 0 \) 61 275 6045 fax 44 \( 0 \) 61 275 6040 janet c c lilley uk ac mcc
lilley v5 cgu mcc ac uk \( chris lilley \) subject 48 bit graphics keywords 48 bit alpha channel image lines 41 reply c c lilley mcc ac uk organization computer graphics unit , mcc article 1993apr24 cs wisc edu , oehler yar cs wisc edu \( sane \) writes recently talking possible employer \( mine ! \) \) made reference 48 bit graphics computer image processing system seem remember called image something akin anyway , claimed 48 bit color 12 bit alpha channel 's 60 bits info could possibly \? specifically 48 bit color \? 's 280 trillion colors , many human eye resolve anti aliasing thing \? magic number make work better certain processor well 48 bit colour could improved resolution 16 bits per channel seems like bit excessive seen paper quoted 10 bits per channel 12 bits computational precision would seem wasted perhaps frame buffer uses another needs bits represent full range rgb cube compact encoding likely however two separate 24 bit \( 8 bits per component \) frame buffers set , called double buffering , allows complex 3d picture built one buffer buffer \( containing previous frame \) displayed makes smoother animation \( sadly , access none dec 5000 25 sigh \) well hey want brag numbers , 5000 range take pxg turbo card 96 bits per pixel full double buffering \( two 24 bit buffers \) , 24 bit z buffer extra 24 bit buffer screen image storage mind card costs workstation chris lilley technical author , itti computer graphics visualisation training project computer graphics unit , manchester computing centre , oxford road , manchester , uk m13 9pl internet c c lilley mcc ac uk voice 44 \( 0 \) 61 275 6045 fax 44 \( 0 \) 61 275 6040 janet c c lilley uk ac mcc
jennifer lynn urso andrew cmu edu subject turning photographic images thermal print negatives organization freshman , art , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 26 nntp posting host po4 andrew cmu edu reply 1993apr26 seq uncwil edu also anyone else planning would happy hear advice might provide computer system use peripherals software seemed quadra 800 would best bet modify photographic images planning buying quadra 800 ram , hard drive , 1200 dpi scanner , 17 sony monitor cartridge drive perhaps cd rom new computers advice would great well , lots experience scanning images altering changing back negatives , really possible \? scanning altering big deal n't know types features version photoshop one use \( , incidentally quadra \) gallery effects types stuff i'm wondering would want put images back negatives , print image 's print know exactly aim \? like , fun , business , gain computer knowledge , project 're working otherwise , guess n't know 'd helping posting info scanning stuff ok \? cool jennifer urso oh bitter woman utter \( cheerful undertones \)
lilley v5 cgu mcc ac uk \( chris lilley \) subject help need 24 bits viewer keywords 24 bit lines 24 reply c c lilley mcc ac uk organization computer graphics unit , mcc article seti inria fr , deniaud cartoon inria fr \( gilles deniaud \) writes i'm looking program able display 24 bits images using sun sparc equipped parallax graphics board running x11 utah raster toolkit using getx11 convert sun raster files \( presumably \) ppm pbm toolkit convert ppm utah rle format ppmtorle provided toolkit seem remember xloadimage 24 bit servers possibly xwud x window un dump program display 24 bit images certainly xwd grab chris lilley technical author , itti computer graphics visualisation training project computer graphics unit , manchester computing centre , oxford road , manchester , uk m13 9pl internet c c lilley mcc ac uk voice 44 \( 0 \) 61 275 6045 fax 44 \( 0 \) 61 275 6040 janet c c lilley uk ac mcc
jhpark cs utexas edu \( park \) subject povray tga rle organization cs dept , university texas austin lines 25 nntp posting host pageboy cs utexas edu hello , problem converting tga file \( generated povray \) rle file convert , get warning message use xloadimage getx11 , something wrong error messages , rle data tga xloadimage rle rle 0x0 24 bit rle image map \( dither 8 bits \) , gamma 1 00 dithering image done building ximage done xloadimage x error \( integer parameter range operation \) 0x0 xloadimage x error badwindow \( invalid window parameter \) know need install ppmtorle , spend time install even want generate rgb povray convert rle , possible \( rgb rle works , mess directory many files , needs 2 steps finally convert rle file say cat \) body experience problems \? thanks advance , j park
baer qiclab scn rain com \( ken baer \) subject wanted playmation info summary phone article qiclab 1993apr27 organization scn research qic laboratories tigard , oregon lines 18 article 1993apr26 qiclab scn rain com baer qiclab scn rain com \( ken baer \) writes article 1993apr22 osf org omar godzilla osf org \( mark marino \) writes hi folks , anyone copy playmation 'd willing sell 'd love try , retail playmation available direct associates 299 oops , forgot phone number 's 1 800 377 ken baer programmer animator , hash enterprises usenet baer qiclab uucp applelink office \( 206 \) 573 , 're anymore , 're riding ! ren
organization queen 's university kingston qucdn queensu ca subject please help point concave polyhedra lines 43 dear netters looking c source code test 3d point lies within concave read articles know two solutions exist parity counting angle ideas pretty simple coding wonder exists public domain source code another \( n't care special cases \) ray casting reported less independent number faces consisting polyhedra special space indexing used \( , et al , 1984 ray casting block model conversion using spatial index computer aided designs 4 , 1984 , 60 65 \) facets polyhedra normal pointing outside polyhedra could done practice \? set consisting polyhedra could ensure normals pointing outside polyhedra \? paper mentioned assumed already case also read standard computer graphics textbook hidden line removal says make rule normal facet pointing toward viewer standing far away polyhedra make sure \? pointers welcome \? queen 's university kingston , ont qucdn queensu ca
kim cs indiana edu subject data wanted texture mapped organization indiana university computer science , bloomington lines 10 need data nice looking model texture mapping would better parametric values vertex \( surface \) avaliable along euclidean points could use texture mapping thanks ,
kim cs indiana edu subject faq \? organization indiana university computer science , bloomington distribution usa lines 4 find \? thanks ,
uxa cso uiuc edu \( li \) subject difference raytracing rendering \? organization university illinois urbana lines 8 hello , 've raytraced rendered difference 've found raytracing takes hell lot longer missing something \? later , z
mek hydrox enet dec com \( mark \) subject tiff complexity x received usenet pa dec com id tue , 27 apr 93 10 55 53 0700 x received enet gw pa dec com id tue , 27 apr 93 10 55 51 0700 x received hydrox enet decwrl enet tue , 27 apr 93 10 55 52 pdt x comp graphics usenet x apparently comp graphics usenet lines 38 anyone thinks tiff complex n't dealt cgm , asn 1 , cda , dca , sgml , one number successful file format people seem perfectly capable dealing others dealing format tiff frankly less difficult dealing dct , lzw , fax encoding image data majority libraries deal tiff dedicated issues rather simply decoding tags parameters perhaps people overwhelmed comparison rather formats gif , pcx , bmp , suggest tiff complex doomed failure ludicrous n't mean gif n't fine , n't even thing using many instances gif nice use low end photos applications screen grabs , would never high volume high resolution systems fax nice , n't color \( gif n't b w well \) jpeg nice high resolution color , slow low end advantage tiff brings table ability handle situations \( \) naturally 's complex rather propose tiff imaging solutions imaging systems based deal 3 4 file formats may find tiff complicated personal tastes please n't 's complexity complexity contains required provide functionality n't come close complexity found commercially viable file formats 're philosophical arguments complexity , let 's go program scheme forth imaging run length encoding
subject dxf pcx , gif , tif tga \? murashiea mail beckman com \( ed murashie \) organization dsg development eng beckman instruments inc nntp posting host 134 217 245 87 lines 11 anyone know program pc take autocad dxf format files convert raster format , like pcx , gif , etc \? thanks advance ed ed murashie us mail beckman instruments inc phone \( 714 \) 993 diagnostic system group fax \( 714 \) 961 200 blvd w 361 internet murashiea mail beckman com brea , ca
matess gsusgi1 gsu edu \( eliza strickler \) subject donwloaded bin file unix machine \? organization georgia state university lines 17 donwloaded bin file unix machine supposed converted mac format anyone know need file get dos , mac unix readable format someone mentioned fetch unix machine correct \? could someone explain bin format little \? thanks , elizabeth 0 0 elizabeth strickler 0 \( matess gsusgi1 gsu edu
push world std com \( warren liu \) subject help 3d studio ipas organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 6 hi anyone please give ftp sites get ipas processes 3d studio 2 0 \? thanks warren 8 \)
gotsman csa technion ac il \( craig gotsman \) subject computer graphics studies technion reply gotsman csa technion ac il \( craig gotsman \) organization technion , israel inst technology lines 23 technion israel institute technology department computer science graduate studies computer graphics applications invited graduate students wishing specialize computer graphics related fields active research conducted fields image rendering , geometric modelling computer animation state art graphics workstations \( sun , silicon graphics \) video equipment available technion offers full scholarship support \( tuition \) suitable candidates information contact dr craig gotsman computer science technion israel institute technology haifa , israel gotsman cs technion ac il
boebert sctc com \( earl boebert \) subject gcd formats reference needed organization sctc lines 6 kind soul point references formats \? thanks , earl
boebert sctc com \( earl boebert \) subject autodesk 3d concepts users \? organization sctc lines 6 user autodesk 3d concepts , willing answer small number short questions , please send email earl \( boebert sctc com \)
hollasch kpc com \( steve hollasch \) subject raytracing colours \? summary illumination equations organization kubota pacific computer , inc lines 44 cs uct ac za \( adrian \) writes incident ray \( \) strikes object point p reflected ray \( r \) transmitted ray \( \) calculated formulae calling routine r return colours along rays \( r \) object colour light source \( 1 n \) question combine , , 's get correct resulting colour return along ray \? first \( snide response \) , 're confused issue , stumble lot things well suggest weakness reference material get introduction ray tracing andrew glassner good coverage raytracing algorithm could also refer 2nd edition foley van dam question simple answer keep adding contributions maximum intensity example , intensity values range 0 0 1 0 , keep adding clamp resultant values 1 0 \( might clamp lower bound 0 0 dark bulbs , 's another issue \) , get illumination equation like \( light n \) contribution due reflection summed light intensity , light due transparency , slightly less hand waving illumination equation \( light n \) , component illumination equation governed material constants ka , kd , kr kt maximum get transparency given object , example , might 0 4 , 0 1 , 0 5 purple colored glass object hopefully answers question 'll forward illumination equation sermon also steve hollasch kubota pacific computer , inc hollasch kpc com santa clara , california
hollasch kpc com \( steve hollasch \) subject difference raytracing rendering \? summary raytracing form rendering organization kubota pacific computer , inc lines 31 uxa cso uiuc edu \( li \) writes hello , 've raytraced rendered difference 've found raytracing takes hell lot longer missing something \? yes many methods rendering , raytracing one n't say mean rendering , wo n't guess methods rendering include pencil graph paper , math hand wireframe rendering 2d projection hidden line rendering scanline rendering using painter 's algorithm trees z buffer raytracing radiosity projection film combination steve hollasch kubota pacific computer , inc hollasch kpc com santa clara , california
subject dna helix nermal santarosa edu \( tim lynch \) organization santa rosa junior college , santa rosa , ca nntp posting host nermal santarosa edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 3 looking tiff eps dna helix e mail , please
niko iastate edu \( e \) subject donwloaded bin file unix machine \? organization iowa state university , ames , ia lines 26 article matess gsusgi1 gsu edu matess gsusgi1 gsu edu \( eliza strickler \) writes donwloaded bin file unix machine supposed converted mac format anyone know need file get dos , mac unix readable format someone mentioned fetch unix machine correct \? could someone explain bin format little \? almost certainly macbinary file encoded version mac file resource fork data fork get preserved need program converts regular file macbinary file , may downloaded text mode probably corrupt \( \) 're using ftp transfer point make sure type binary first open file text editor find \( file must converted bin top , binhex file decoded binhex 4 0 \( among programs \) niko project vincent systems manager email niko iastate edu iowa state university computation center voice \( 515 \) 294 ames ia 50011 snail 291 durham
edimg willard atl ga us \( ed pimentel \) subject rfd comp multimedia open telematic organization willard 's house bbs , atlanta , ga 1 \( 404 \) 664 8814 lines 53 nntp posting host rodan uu net rfd request discussion open telematic group otg proposed forming consortium task force promotion naplps jpeg , openly discuss ways , method , procedures , algorythms , applications , implementation , extensions naplps jpeg standards standards facilitate creation real time online applications make use voice , video , , hires graphics , conferencing , distant learning , online order entry , fax , addition would assist better understand sgml , , , mime , , jpeg , mpeg , fractals , sql , cdrom , , kodak photocd , tcl , v fast , eia , best incorporated implemented develop telematic multimedia applications want able support dos , unix , mac , windows , nt , os 2 platforms hope individuals , developers , corporations , universities , r labs would join supporting endeavor would profit group bylaws charter already many corporations decided support otg \( open telematic group \) delay joining developer rfd posted form usenet newsgroup faq soon composed start known subject would like added send email mail address group would publish electronic quarterly naplps jpeg newsletter well hardcopy version urge wants see cmcs hires based applications naplps jpeg g r w , decide join mutually benefit profit endeavor note telematic defined mr james martin marriage voice , video , hi res graphics , fax , , music telephone lines lan would like get involve write img inter multimedia group internet world std com p box ed pimentel gisatl fidonet org atlanta , georgia , us cis , fidonet 1 133 407 bbs 1 404 985 1198 zyxel 14 4k edimg willard atl ga us \( ed pimentel \) gatech ! kd4nc ! ! willard ! edimg emory ! ! willard ! edimg willard 's house bbs , atlanta , ga 1 \( 404 \) 664 8814
deniaud cartoon inria fr \( gilles deniaud \) subject wanted 24 bit viewer lines 15 hello , thanks people helped problem displaying 24 bit images viewers like xli , xloadimage display converting 24 bit images 8 bit display screen really want viewer make use 24 bit frame screen buffer \( case , parallax one \) thanks advance gilles ps using sun sparc running x11
stein watson ibm com \( arthur stein \) subject scientific visualization chemical systems disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host watson ibm com organization visualization systems , ibm keywords computer graphics , ray tracing , volume rendering scientific visualization chemical systems cornell theory center summer school offered cornell school continuing education summer sessions course description within past ten years , simulation modeling lines 197 molecules evolved esoteric academic subject international industry computer graphics played decisive role transformation allowing chemists build , visualize interact complex geometrical objects computer scientists language discipline , often unfamiliar terminology , simulation techniques practical needs research chemists similarly , chemists often unfamiliar latest paradigms technological advances graphical computing interdisciplinary course intended bridge gap computer science chemistry equip chemistry researchers wish casual users graphics software although intended course computational chemistry drug design , data sets chemical research problems used lab students encouraged bring data sets lab exercises projects carried using data flow programming \( ibm visualization data explorer software \) students access cornell theory center computing resources , including video recording equipment audience researchers students chemical biological sciences interested integrating state art computer graphics research computer scientists wishing gain familiarity major application scientific visualization class size limited 25 participants first come first served basis level graduate advanced undergraduate , 1 2 credits may taken without credit workshop calculus , linear algebra introductory chemistry required familiarity unix , x windows c useful required date june 14 25 , 1993 \( 2 credits \) june 14 18 , 1993 \( 1 0 credits \) time mon fri 9 00 12 00 pm 1 00 pm 4 00 pm cost 0 1 credit 410 2 credits 820 format course held theory center training facility computer workstations available daily lectures laboratory exercises ample time provided project new computing environment students enrolled one credit graded basis laboratory exercises short final project enrolled second credit receive advanced lectures , given time project development meet daily share experience discuss problems encountered content \( may vary \) elements computer graphics polygonal rendering , lighting models , ray tracing , volumetric rendering , stereo graphics , animation , introduction data flow programming \( dx \) , representing atom size , time energy scales basic classical quantum mechanics important categories molecules small molecules , , surfaces catalysts , miscellaneous current applications data formats conversions advanced molecular graphics techniques types simulation experiment electronic structure , molecular dynamics mechanics , x ray , nmr , quantum dynamics spectroscopy instructors course taught two instructors topics related computer graphics handled dr bruce land , project leader visualization , cornell national supercomputing facility chemistry specific aspects course handled dr richard e , visualization specialist research scientist , cornell national supercomputing facility register mail completed form cornell university school continuing education summer sessions day hall ithaca , ny 14853 2801 questions richard \( 607 \) 254 richard tc cornell edu important acceptance first come , first served based target class size 15 full credit 10 single non credit participants deadline may 20 , 1993 application form scientific visualization chemical systems chemistry 782 computer science 718 u social security number \( available \) cornell id number \( available \) name last first middle suffix \( jr , etc \) address home address \( grades mailed \) local phone home phone academic discipline course number \( check one \) chemistry computer science credits status undergraduate student smart node consultant graduate student smart node advisor post doctoral faculty \( explain \) corporate commercial research staff \( explain \) name firm indicate following best describes \( optional \) african american alaskan native asian american caucasian hispanic american native american list special needs \( e g mobility impaired \) accommodations blocks rooms available sheraton reservations must made later may 17 sure tell cornell theory center visualization workshop sheraton inn one sheraton drive , ithaca \( 607 \) 257 2000 fax 607 257 398 rates starting 64 00 local \( make reservation early ! workshop cornell events \) lodge mall n rd ithaca \( 607 \) 257 1400 \( 800 \) 466 6900 fax \( 607 \) 257 rates 35 10 \( ask cornell rate \) dorm rooms also reserved participants \( credit non credit \) participants interested dorm rooms call \( \) registration information jeanne miller \( 607 \) 254 donna smith \( 607 \) 254 email jeanne tc cornell edu donna tc cornell edu
andrey v tolsty nsk uucp free msk su subject analysis text utils \( ocr \) wanted \( ibm pc \) distribution world organization nsk ran reply tolsty nsk uucp free msk su lines 31 tolsty thu apr 23 21 32 35 1992 su newsgroups comp , comp graphics digest , comp graphics , comp binaries ibm pc wanted , alt graphics , bit listserv message id nsk uucp free msk su organization nsk ran andrey v tolsty nsk uucp free msk su date thu , 23 apr 1992 21 32 35 0200 subject analysis text reading utils needed \( ibm pc \) distribution msk hi ! anybody know reliable utils read english texts scanner \? want analysis quality recognition , want read texts get fax \( know quality faxes rather bad \) scanner b w exist good software needs specifications , ok please , send messages e mail conference server , 'll summarize consider recomendations thank ! ! ! andrey v scientific council complex problem , russian academy sciences e mail tolsty nsk uucp free msk su tel fax \( 095 \) 129
waikato ac nz subject cross , sobel roberts filters \? organization university waikato , hamilton , new zealand lines 15 saw imaging program time ago amiga cross , sobel roberts filters edge detection anybody direct algorithms paul paul internet waikato ac nz department computer science university waikato phone 64 7 889 hamilton ext new zealand fax 64 7 135
nfotis ntua gr \( nick c fotis \) subject \( 27 apr 93 \) computer graphics resource listing weekly part 1 3 lines reply nfotis theseas ntua gr \( nick \( nikolaos \) fotis \) organization national technical univ athens archive name graphics resources list part1 last modified 1993 04 27 computer graphics resource listing weekly posting part 1 3 last change 27 april 1993 many faqs , including listing , available archive site pit manager mit edu \( alias rtfm mit edu \) 18 172 1 27 directory pub usenet news answers name faq archived appears archive name line top article faq archived graphics resources list part 1 3 's mail server machine send e mail message mail server pit manager mit edu containing keyword help \( without quotes ! \) message body see many places listing see item 0 places find resource listing information items changed arranged subjects , order fir better article limit plan changing headers soon , careful ! resource listing keys sure remain subject line ! 3 computer graphics ftp site list , eric haines 4 mail servers graphics oriented bbses 9 plotting packages i'm thinking making post bi weekly think \? \? \? lines got changed , ` ' character front added lines prepended ` ' removed lines removed use locate changes text \( c \) copyright 1992 , 1993 nikolaos c fotis copy freely file , provided keep copyright notice intact compiled nikolaos \( nick \) c fotis , e mail nfotis theseas ntua gr please contact updates , corrections , etc disclaimer guarantee accuracy document use risk mainly guide computer graphics software would suggest reading comp graphics faq image analysis stuff 's entitled \( date \) comp graphics frequently asked questions \( faq \) john grieggs grieggs jpl devvax jpl nasa gov poster official comp graphics faq included comments within ' ' ' ' nikolaos fotis contents resource listing part1 0 places find resource listing 1 archie 2 notes 3 computer graphics ftp site list , eric haines 4 mail servers graphics oriented bbses 5 ray tracing graphics related mailing lists 6 3d graphics editors public domain , free shareware systems b commercial systems 7 scene description languages 8 solids description formats part2 9 plotting packages 10 image analysis software image processing display part3 11 scene generators geographical data maps data files 12 3d scanners digitized 3d data 13 background imagery textures datafiles 14 introduction rendering algorithms ray tracing b z buffer \( depth buffer \) c others 15 find geometric data teapot \? b space shuttle \? 16 image annotation software 17 scientific visualization stuff 18 molecular visualization stuff 19 gis \( geographical information systems software \) future additions please send updates info ! 0 places find resource listing file crossposted comp graphics , comp answers news answers , ca n't locate comp graphics , 're advised search comp answers news answers \( latter groups usually archived site contact sysadmin info \) 3 articles posted comp graphics 3 4 times month kept many places \( see \) many faqs , including one , available archive site pit manager mit edu \( alias rtfm mit edu \) 18 172 1 27 directory pub usenet news answers name faq archived appears archive name line top article faq archived graphics resources list part 1 3 's mail server machine send e mail message mail server pit manager mit edu containing help subject field inria graphlib mail server mirrors posting \( see subject 4 mail servers \) resource listing wais machine eas asu edu \( port 8000 \) name graphics resources list 's got digest type line every numbered item purposes indexing another place monitors listing files info contact robert e maas rem btr com yet another place search faqs general switch \( swiss academic research network \) system switzerland interactive telnet nic switch ch 130 59 1 40 , login info move info service usenet periodic postings directory search file typing word look may read faq faqs directory , decide fetch one following methods ftp login nic switch ch 130 59 1 40 user anonymous enter internet style address prompted password cd info service usenet periodic postings mail send e mail rfc 822 archive server nic switch ch x 400 archive server ou nic switch prmd switch admd c ch enter 'help' receive instructions information required subject header line 1 archie archie service system locate ftp places requested files 's appreciated use archie asking help newsgroups archie servers archie au 139 130 4 6 \( aussie nz \) archie funet fi 128 214 6 100 \( finland \) archie th darmstadt de 130 83 128 111 \( ger \) cs huji ac il 132 65 6 5 \( israel \) archie kyoto u ac jp 130 54 20 1 \( japan \) archie ac kr 163 239 1 11 \( korea \) archie ncu edu tw telnet 140 115 19 24 \( \) archie doc ic ac uk 146 169 3 7 \( uk ireland \) archie sura net 128 167 254 179 \( usa md \) archie unl edu \( password \) \( usa ne \) archie ans net 147 225 1 2 \( usa ny \) archie rutgers edu 128 6 18 15 \( usa nj \) archie nz 130 195 9 4 \( new zealand \) connect archie server telnet type archie username get help type 'help' get , clients call archie without burden telnet session x11 r5 contrib tape , comp sources misc , vol 27 get information use archie via e mail , send mail subject help archie account sites \( note janet pss users united kingdom archie site accessible janet host doc ic ac uk connect specify archie host name archie username \) 2 notes \( excerpted faq article \) please post mail messages saying ca n't ftp , could someone mail \? number automated mail servers send things like response message number sites archive usenet sources newsgroups make available via email query system send message automated server saying something like send comp sources unix fbm , hours days later get file mail 3 computer graphics ftp site list , eric haines computer graphics related ftp sites \( \) , 22 04 93 compiled eric haines , erich eye com nick fotis , nfotis theseas ntua gr ray tracers rayshade great ray tracer workstations , also pc , mac amiga pov son successor dkb trace , written \( questions call drew wells 1244 compuserve com dave buck david buck carleton ca \) art ray tracer good range surface types , part vort package dkbtrace another good ray tracer , reports pcs , mac ii , amiga , unix , vms \( last two x11 previewer \) , etc rtrace portugese ray tracer , patches , csg , 3d text , etc etc ms dos version use djgpp dos extender \( go32 \) exists also , mac port shareware raytracer pcs binary \( 286 287 \) author stephen coy \( coy ssc vax boeing com \) 386 387 \( source \) version available registered users \( us 50 \) direct author ray4 steve hollasch 's 4 dimensional ray tracer renders , , , \( 's separate real time wireframe viewer written gl called wire4 \) mtv , qrt , dbw yet ray tracers , interesting features distributed parallel raytracers xdart distributed ray tracer runs x11 server binaries work decstations , sparcs , hp snakes \( series \) next clients distributed binaries c source inetray network version rayshade 4 0 needs sun rpc 4 0 newer contact andreas \( ant ips id ethz ch \) prt , vm pray parallel ray tracers volume renderers cornell 's volume renderer , devine warren \( fortran \) radiosity \( diffuse lighting \) renderers radiance ray tracer w radiosity effects , greg ward excellent shading models physically based lighting simulation unix x based , though ported amiga pc \( 386 \) india indian radiosity package based radiance sgi rad interactive radiosity package runs sgi machines spaceball includes house database author guy epfl ch rad simple public domain radiosity package c solution run stand alone unix box , walk requires sgi 4d author bernard kwok g kwok cs yorku ca renderers raytracers , graphics libraries sipp scan line z buffer phong shading renderer uses shadow buffer algorithm tcl sipp tcl command interface sipp rendering program tcl sipp set tcl commands used programmed sipp without write compile c code commands used specify surfaces , objects , scenes rendering options renders either ppm format utah raster toolkit rle format photo widget tk based x11 applications vogle graphics learning environment \( device portable \) vogl sgi gl like library based vogle rend386 fast polygon renderer intel version 2 's , rather real time renderer dr dobb 's journal pc renderer source code , budget texture mapping , wireframe viewers vision 3d mac modeler , output radiance rayshade files irit csg solid modeler , support surfaces x3d wireframe viewer x11 3 wireframe graphics toolkit , c source , objects , stuff look major pc archives like wuarchive one file zip pv3d shareware front end modeler povray , still beta test french docs , price registering 250 french save disabled extra utilities , dxf files registered version geometric viewers salem gl based package et al exploring mathematical structures geomview gl based package looking interactively manipulating 3d objects , geometry center minnesota xyz \( experimental geometry zurich \) workbench geometric computation macintosh computers wire4 gl wireframe previewer steve hollasch 's ray4 \( see \) data formats data sets ray tracing spd set procedural databases testing ray tracers nff simplistic file format used spd another file format p3d file format tddd imagine \( 3d modeler \) format , converters rayshade , nff , , etc also includes nice postscript object great models ttdddlib converts tddd ttddd , , nff , rayshade 4 0 , imagine , vort 3d objects also outputs framemaker mif files isometric views postscript registered users get tex pk font converter surfaces generator glenn lewis intel com note ttdddlib also known chvrtd chapel hill volume rendering test datasets , includes volume sets two heads , brain , knee , electron density maps rna others written material rendering rt news collections articles ray tracing rt bib references articles ray tracing refer format rad bib references articles radiosity \( global illumination \) speer rt bib rick speer 's cross referenced rt bib , postscript rt abstracts collection tom wilson abstracts many rt articles paper bank project various technical papers electronic form contact juhana kouhia jk87377 cs tut fi online bibliography project acm siggraph online bibliography project database 15 , 000 unique computer graphics computational geometry references bibtex format , available computer graphics community research educational resource database located siggraph org users may download bibtex files via ftp peruse offline , telnet siggraph org log biblio interactively search database entries interest , keyword people without internet access , 's also e mail server send mail archive server siggraph org subject body message include message send followed topic wish good place start command send index give date list available information additions corrections suggestions may directed admin , siggraph org image manipulation libraries utah raster toolkit nice image manipulation tools pbmplus great package image conversion manipulation libtiff library reading writing tiff images imagemagick x11 package display interactive manipulation images uses format \( \) , includes converters xv x based image display , manipulation , format converter xloadimage , xli displays various formats x11 screen khoros huge , excellent system image processing , visual programming interface much much uses x windows fbm another set image manipulation tools , somewhat old img image manipulation , displays x11 screen , bit old plays fli animation x11 plays resolution fli along gif 's \( including gif89a animation extensions \) , dl 's amiga iff animations \( 3 , 5 , j , l \) iff pictures \( including ham , color cycling \) sdsc sdsc image tools package \( san diego supercomputing center \) image manipulation conversion clrpaint 24 bit paint program sgi 24bit workstations 8bit libraries code graphics graphics gems , ii , iii code ever useful books spline patch tar z spline patch ray intersection routines sean graves kaleido computation 3d display uniform polyhedra mirrored wuarchive package computes \( displays \) properties 75 polyhedra author dr zvi , e mail rl gauss technion ac il \( \) means site official distributor , date north america \( please look things continent first \) wuarchive wustl edu 128 252 135 4 graphics graphics get contents file graphics graphics objects tddd ttddd objects converters , mirrors unix c graphics rayshade ray tracer , mtv ray tracer , vort ray tracer , fbm , pbmplus , , utah raster toolkit mirrors msdos graphics dkb ray tracer , fli demos pub rad tar z sgi rad , graphics graphics radiosity radiance indian radiosity package msdos zip version 21 , fast texture mapping 's lots , including , graphics gems ii code , , rtn , radiance , nff , sipp , spline patch intersection routines , textbook errata , source code roy hall 's book illumination color computer generated imagery , etc graphics graphics packages kaleido kaleido george kyriazis kyriazis turing cs rpi edu princeton edu 128 112 128 1 pub graphics \( note capital g \) rayshade 4 0 ray tracer \( separate 387 executable \) , color quantization code , spd , rt news , wilson 's rt abstracts , rt bib , utah raster toolkit , newer fbm , graphics gems , ii iii code pub graphics directory salem stuff craig kolb cek princeton edu replaces weedeater math yale edu note capital g pub graphics 's trouble princeton 's incoming area , upload rayshade specific stuff weedeater math yale edu 128 36 23 17 alfred ccs carleton ca 134 117 1 1 pub dkbtrace dkb ray tracer , pub pov ray pov 0 compuserve group ray tracer \( pov \) david buck david buck carleton ca avalon chinalake navy mil 129 131 31 11 3d objects \( multiple formats \) , utilities , file format documents site created 3d object repository net francisco x dejesus dejesus archimedes chinalake navy mil omicron cs unc edu 152 2 128 159 pub softlab chvrtd chapel hill volume rendering test datasets ftp mv com 192 80 84 1 official ftp repository essex ac uk 155 245 115 161 pilot european image processing archive directory synth something like , image synthesis packages adrian clarke alien essex ac uk berkeley edu 128 32 142 237 tcl extensions 0b tar z tcl sipp mark markd grizzly com markd neosoft com acs cps msu edu 35 8 56 90 pub sass x window fonts converter rayshade 3 0 polygons , rayshade animation tool \( \) ron sass sass cps msu edu hobbes lbl gov 128 3 12 38 radiance ray trace radiosity package greg ward lbl gov geom umn edu 128 101 25 31 pub geomview geomview contact \( geomview \) software geom umn edu ftp arc umn edu 137 66 130 11 pub gvl tar z latest version bob , icol raz source , manual , man pages , binaries irix 4 0 5 included \( bob real time volume renderer \) pub contains also many volume datasets ken chin ken ahpcrc umn edu ftp kpc com 144 52 120 9 pub graphics steve hollasch 's thesis , pub graphics ray4 ray4 , pub graphics wire4 wire4 pub mirror avalon mirror avalon 's 3d objects repository steve hollasch hollasch kpc com lerc nasa gov 139 88 54 33 programs hollasch 4d ray4 , sgi explorer modules postscript manual , etc zamenhof cs rice edu 128 42 1 75 pub graphics formats various electronic documents many object image formats mark hall foo cs rice edu apparently longer maintaining , see ftp ncsa uiuc edu rascal ics utexas edu 128 83 144 1 misc mac vision 3d facet based modeller , output rayshade radiance files ftp ncsa uiuc edu 141 142 20 50 misc file formats graphics formats contains various image object format descriptions many tools various directories , e g sgi alpha shape 1 0 tar z 3d alpha shape visualizer \( sgi machines \) , sgi 0 z interactive visualization analysis 3d geometrical structures koziol koziol ncsa uiuc edu noao edu 140 252 1 1 iraf iraf astronomy package ftp ipl rpi edu 128 113 14 50 sigma erich spd images haines thesis images pub images various 24 8 bit image stills sequences kevin martin sigma ipl rpi edu ftp psc edu 128 182 66 148 pub p3d p3d 2 0 tar p3d scene language renderers joel psc edu ftp ee lbl gov 128 3 254 68 pbmplus tar z , rayshade data files jef poskanzer jef ace ee lbl gov george lbl gov 128 3 196 93 pub ccs lib ccs tar z ccs \( complex conversion system \) , standard software interface image processing hanauma stanford edu 36 51 0 16 pub graphics comp graphics best comp graphics \( extensive \) , ray tracers dbw , mtv , qrt , joe joe hanauma stanford edu ftp uu net 192 48 96 2 graphics irit , rt news back issues \( complete \) , nurbs models , graphics related material graphics jpeg jpegsrc v \? tar z independent jpeg group package reading writing jpeg files freebie engin umich edu 141 212 68 23 utah raster toolkit , spencer thomas thomas eecs umich edu export lcs mit edu 18 24 0 12 contrib pbmplus , image magick , xloadimage , xli , xv , img , lots pub mit demos gpc ncga graphics performance characterization \( gpc \) suite life rpi edu 128 113 10 2 pub ray kyriazis ray tracer george kyriazis kyriazis turing cs rpi edu cs utah edu 128 110 4 21 pub utah raster toolkit , nurbs databases jamie painter jamie cs utah edu gatekeeper dec com 16 1 0 2 pub dec tar z models , also gpc benchmark files \( planned , checked \) rost rost kpc com hubcap clemson edu 130 127 8 1 pub amiga incoming imagine stuff amiga imagine turbo silver ray tracers pub amiga ttdddlib ttdddlib pub amiga incoming imagine objects many objects glenn lewis intel com pprg eece unm edu 129 24 24 10 pub khoros khoros image processing package \( huge , great \) danielle danielle bullwinkle unm edu expo lcs mit edu 18 30 0 212 contrib pbmplus portable bitmap package , bitmap collection , raveling img , xloadimage jef poskanzer jef well sf ca us venera isi edu 128 9 0 32 pub img tar z img tar z image manipulation , pub images rgb separation photos paul raveling raveling venera isi edu ucsd edu 128 54 16 1 graphics utah rle toolkit , pbmplus , fbm , databases , mtv , dbw ray tracers , world map , stuff updated much recently engr wisc edu 128 104 52 10 pub x3d 2 2 tar z x3d pub xdart 1 1 xdart mark spy engr wisc edu sgi com 192 48 153 1 graphics tiff tiff 6 0 spec libtiff software pics also much sgi gl related stuff \( e g opengl manuals \) sam leffler sam sgi com berkeley edu libtiff stuff surya waterloo edu 129 97 129 72 graphics fbm , ray tracers ftp sdsc edu 132 249 20 22 sdsc ftp brl mil 128 63 16 158 brl cad information get brl cad package ray tracer images various test images texture library also begun lee butler butler brl mil cicero cs umass edu 128 119 40 189 texture temp 512x512 grayscale textures , julien flack julien scs leeds ac uk karazm math uh edu 129 7 7 6 pub graphics shar 12 90 z wilson 's rt abstracts , vm pray j eric townsend jet karazm math uh edu jet nas nasa gov ftp pitt edu 130 49 253 1 users images 24 bit image archive \( small \) james crawford gl pitt edu ftp tc cornell edu 128 84 201 1 pub vis sunee waterloo edu 129 97 50 50 pub raytracers vivid , rend386 sunee uwaterloo ca archive umich edu 141 211 164 153 msdos graphics pc graphics stuff msdos graphics raytrace apple apple com 130 43 2 2 \? pub prt research att com 192 20 225 2 netlib graphics spd package , polyhedra polyhedra databases \( n't ftp , use netlib automatic mail uucp research ! netlib , internet netlib ornl gov send one line message send index info , send haines graphics get spd \) siggraph org 128 248 245 250 siggraph archive site publications online bibliography project , conference proceedings various electronic formats \( papers , panels \) , siggraph video review information order forms stuff various directories automatic mailer archive server siggraph org \( send index \) ftp cs unc edu 128 109 136 159 pub reaction diffusion greg turk 's work reaction diffusion textures , x windows code \( siggraph '91 \) avs ncsc org 128 109 178 23 ftp volume datasets boston workshop volume visualization '92 site also international avs center terry ncsc org uvacs cs virginia edu 128 143 8 100 pub suit demo sparc , dec , etc suit \( simple user interface toolkit \) finger suit uvacs cs virginia edu get detailed instructions nexus yorku ca 130 63 9 66 pub reports radiosity code tar z rad pub reports radiosity thesis ps z rad msc thesis site changed ftp yorku ca near future milton u washington edu 128 95 136 1 ftp public veos veos virtual reality distributed applications prototyping environment unix veos software support veos support washington edu fly fly ! 3d visualization software demo package built fly various datasets near real time binaries many platforms also , much virtual reality stuff umich edu 141 211 184 2 x 3d files \( lcd glass shutter amiga computers great vr stuff ! \) acs syr edu 128 230 24 1 various stereo pair images closed \( sunsite unc edu 152 2 22 81 pub academic computer science virtual reality final copy acs syr edu archive ceased exist contains powerglove code , vr papers , 3d images irc research material jonathan sunsite unc edu archive cis ohio state edu 128 146 8 52 pub code siggraph '92 course 23 \( procedural modeling rendering techniques \) dr david ebert ebert cis ohio state edu lyapunov ucsd edu 132 239 86 10 machine considered repository programs nonlinear dynamics , signal processing , related subjects \( fractals , course ! \) matt mbk ucsd edu cod nosc mil 128 49 16 5 pub grid ps , tex , ascii short survey methods interpolate contour data ics uci edu 128 195 1 1 honig various stereo pair images , movie c movie x display \( 8 bit mono \) digital subtraction taurus cs nps navy mil 131 120 1 13 pub dabro cyberware demo tar z human head data pioneer unm edu 129 24 9 217 pub texture maps hans du buf 's grayscale test textures \( aerial , textures , synthetic \) space planetary image repository provides access 150 cd roms data images \( 3 line time \) pub info beginner info start browsing colby opus pioneer unm edu cs brown edu 128 148 33 66 srgp sphigs info srgp sphigs mail cs brown edu pdb pdb bnl gov 130 199 144 1 data various organic molecules , bonds different atoms , etc atomic coordinates \( load stuff \) contained ent files , actual atomic seem missing could convert data pov , rayshade , etc bio ns ca 142 2 20 2 pub art renoir paintings , 's pictures , etc ee umanitoba ca sample set images cd rom \( images atomic landscapes , advanced semiconductors , experimental surface chemistry among others \) contact ee umanitoba ca explorer dgp toronto edu 128 100 1 129 pub sgi clrpaint clrpaint pub sgi clrview clrview , tool aids visualization gis datasets may formats like dxf , dem , arc info , etc ames arc nasa gov 128 102 18 3 pub space cdrom images magellan viking missions etc get pub space index first pub spacelink spacelink service data \( see \) e mail server available send mail archive server ames arc nasa gov \( ames ! archive server \) subject help send space index \( without quotes ! \) peter yee yee ames arc nasa gov pubinfo jpl nasa gov 128 149 6 2 images , data , etc jpl missions modem access \( 818 \) 354 1333 \( parity , 8 data bits , 1 stop bit \) jplpost jpl nasa gov phone \( 818 \) 354 spacelink msfc nasa gov 128 158 13 250 \( passwd guest \) space graphics gif images nasa 's planetary probes hubble telescope main function support teachers \( telnet also site \) dial access \( 205 \) 895 0028 \( 300 1200 2400 9600 \( v 32 \) baud , 8 bits , parity , 1 stop bit \) stsci edu 130 167 1 2 hubble space telescope stuff \( images data \) read readme first ! pete reppert reppert stsci edu chris stsci edu pit manager mit edu 18 172 1 27 pub usenet news answers land faqs graphics pictures directories particular interest also available mail server pit manager mit edu sending mail message containing help uucp archive avatar rt news back issues details , write avatar avatar com europe nic funet fi 128 214 6 100 pub sci papers paper bank project , including pete shirley 's entire thesis \( pics \) , wilson 's rt abstracts , pub misc cia cia world data bank , comp graphics research archive , india , much , much juhana kouhia jk87377 cs tut fi epfl ch 128 178 62 2 radiance good european sites , n't carry add ons available radiance isy liu se 130 236 1 3 pub sipp sipp 3 0 tar z sipp scan line z buffer phong shading renderer jonas jonas isy liu se irisa fr 131 254 2 3 vm pray ray tracer , spd , nff many non spd nff format scenes , rayshade data files irisa irisa fr may disappeared phoenix oulu fi 130 231 240 17 fli animation files \( pc vga \) also big \( 640 480 \) demos americans check wuarchive first animations come jari hole phoenix oulu fi jyu fi 128 214 7 5 pub graphics ray traces many ray tracers , including vm pray , dbw , dkb , mtv , qrt , rayshade , rt news , nff files jari jyu fi garbo uwasa fi 128 214 87 1 much pc stuff , etc , pc source contour f fortran program contour scattered data using linear triangle based interpolation asterix inescn pt 192 35 246 17 pub rtrace rtrace tar z \( nff utilities rtrace \) , medical data \( cat , etc \) converters nff , autocad nff code , autocad 11 scn \( rtrace 's language \) converter goodies antonio costa \( acc asterix inescn pt \) vega hut fi 128 214 3 82 graphics rtn archive , ray tracers \( mtv , qrt , others \) , nff , models shut months ago , check nic funet fi nfotis sun4nl nl 192 16 202 2 pub graphics raytrace dbw , mtv , etc unix hensa ac uk misc unix ralcgm ralcgm tar z cgm viewer converter 's e mail server also mail archive unix hensa ac uk message body send misc unix ralcgm ralcgm tar z mt se 130 240 0 25 graphics raytracing prt , others , doc wilson 's rt abstracts , vivid ftp fu berlin de 130 20 225 2 pub unix graphics 0 inputs aq tar z rayshade americans check princeton edu first \) math fu berlin de ethz ch 129 132 17 1 pub inetray inetray sun rpc 4 0 code andreas ant ips id ethz ch id dk 129 142 65 24 pub amiga graphics radiance amiga port radiance 2 0 per id dk ftp informatik uni oldenburg de 134 106 1 9 pov raytracer mirrored wuarchive , many goods pov pub dkbtrace incoming polyray polyray raytracer pub dkbtrace incoming pv3d pv3d ftp uni kl de 131 246 9 95 pub amiga raytracing imagine mirror hubcap imagine files neptune inf ethz ch 129 132 101 33 xyz xyz peter inf ethz ch unibe ch 130 92 64 10 graphics l system interpreter christoph iam unibe ch amiga physik unizh ch 130 60 80 80 amiga gfx graphics stuff amiga computer stesis hq eso org 134 171 8 100 line access huge astronomical database \( login starcat passwd \) decnet stesis \( 's space telescope european coordination facility \) benoit eso org , phone 49 89 320 06 433 middle east gauss technion ac il 132 68 112 60 kaleida australia gondwana ecr mu oz au 128 250 70 62 pub vort \( art \) ray tracer , vogle , wilson 's ray tracing abstracts , pub contrib \( art scenes italy \) , pub images haines haines thesis images , graphics gems code , spd , nff databases , nff previewers , plus 8 24bit images lots stuff pub rad tar z sgi rad bernie kirby bernie ecr mu oz au munnari oz au 128 250 1 21 pub graphics vort tar z vort \( art \) 2 1 csg algebraic surface ray tracer , vogle , pub dbw , pbmplus graphics room tar z \( art scenes italy \) david hook munnari oz au marsh cs curtin edu au 134 7 1 1 pub graphics bibliography facial animation , pub graphics bibliography morph , pub graphics bibliography ui stuff facial animation , morphing user interfaces pub fascia fred parke 's fascia program valerie hall val cs curtin edu au asia ccu1 auckland ac nz 130 216 3 1 ftp mac architec vision 3d facet based modeller , output rayshade files many neat things macs paul bourke pdbourke ccu1 auckland ac nz users outside nz go wuarchive wustl edu , directory mirrors architec sony co jp 133 138 199 1 sgi facial animation steve franks site facial animation steve franks stevef csl sony co jp stevef cs umr edu 4 mail servers graphics oriented bbses please check first ftp places , archie 's help n't overuse mail servers troubles wrong return addresses many mail servers command like path valid return e mail address get hint sending back stuff dec 's ftpmail send one line message ftpmail decwrl dec com without subject field , line containing word 'help' get back message detailing relevant procedures must follow order get files want note reply answer command mailer work message mail receive ftpmail send requests ftpmail , send original mail message , reply complaints sent ftpmail request uucp gw 2 pa dec com address rather postmaster , since decwrl 's postmaster responsible fixing ftpmail problems bitftp bitnet sites , 's bitftp pucc send one line 'help' message address info red red listserv essentially mail server server sites available location earn bitnet internet turkey trickle trearn trickle ege edu tr denmark trickle italy trickle belgium trickle trickle ac austria trickle germany trickle trickle rus uni stuttgart de israel trickle trickle vm tau ac il netherlands trickle hearn trickle hearn nic nl france trickle trickle fr colombia trickle trickle edu co taiwan trickle twnmoe10 trickle twnmoe10 edu tw urged use one closer location send message one containing body help 'll get instructions lightwave 3d mail based file server mail based file server 3d objects , 24bit jpeg images , gif images image maps online internet mail access server official archive site lightwave 3d mail list contains many pd shareware graphics utilities several computer platforms including amiga , atari , ibm macintosh server resides bbs called graphics bbs bbs operational 24 hours day 7 days week phone number 1 908 469 0049 upgraded modem hayes ultra 144 v 32bis v 42bis , speeds 300bps 38 , would like submit objects , scenes images server , please pack , uuencode mail files address server bobsbox rent com information obtaining files server send mail message address file server graphics rent com following body message help dir help file describing use server complete directory listing sent via mail includes cyberware head ttddd format ! check , ca n't use ftp ! nfotis inria graphlib pierre launched inria graphlib mail server months ago echo help mail inria graphlib inria fr give quick summary inria graphlib contains browse among files echo send contents mail inria graphlib inria fr return extended summary example echo send misc mail inria graphlib inria fr return computer graphics resource listing mirrored comp graphics bbses many bbses store datafiles , etc etc , guide beyond scope listing \( resources author ! \) point internet mail accessible bbses carry interesting stuff , send info ! studio amiga 3d modelling ray tracing specific bbs , \( 817 \) 467 24 hours , 105 meg online jeff walkup well sf ca us castle 415 355 \( 14 4k v 32bis v 42 v 42bis mnp \) \( , dang close san francisco , california , usa \) new user password tao j base 2 castle g fx , anim , video , 3d g , sig op , bob lindabury operates bbs \( see entry graphics bbs \) 'you call ray tracing related bbs chicago suburbs \( 708 358 \) \( 708 358 \) digital pixel \( sysop mark ng descartes waterloo edu \) based toronto , ontario , canada phone \( 416 \) 298 storage space 330 megs modem type 14 4k baud , 16 8k \( zyxel \) , v32bis , v32 , mnp 5 access fee none \( free \) system supported dos , os 2 , amiga , mac netmail currently echo mail topics raytracing , fractals , graphics programming , cad , comp graphics related david ic sunysb edu amiga graphics bbs \( 516 \) 473 long island , new york , running 24 hours 14 4k v 32bis , 157 megs line also subscribe 9 mailing lists , 5 originate bbs , 3 added soon include lightwave , imagine , real 3d \( ray tracing \) database files include imagine 3d objects , 3d renderings , scalable fonts , music modules , sound samples , demos , animations , utilities , text databases , pending lightwave 3d objects graphics alternative graphics alternative el , ca , running 24 hours day 14 4k hst v 32bis , online 1300 user base tga runs two nodes , node 1 \( 510 \) 524 public access includes free 90 day trial subscription tga west coast host , cad graphics network , supporting nodes across continental u , alaska , new zealand , australia , france uk tga 's file database includes ms dos executables pov , vivid , rtrace , rayshade , polyray , others tga also numerous graphics utilities , viewers , conversion utilities registered vivid users also download latest vivid code special vivid conference scott access digex com intersection bbs , 410 250 bbs dedicated supporting 3d system provided free charge , anyway users given full access first call features usenet news internet mail , fidonet echo 's netmail , 200 megs online , v 32bis v 42bis modem platforms interest amiga , macintosh , ms dos , unix workstations \( sun , sgi , etc \) , atari st robots gsfc nasa gov pi square bbs \( 301 \) 725 maryland supports raytracers pov vivid bbs runs 486 33mhz , hard drive cd rom runs 1200 2400bps \( change soon \) topics graphics programming , animation , raytracing , programming \( general \) lynn delphi com design 's graphic connection \( 503 \) 591 portland , oregon v 32 v 42bis bbs , aside carrying typical bbs services like message bases \( topic specific \) files \( cad graphics related hundreds megabytes \) , also offers material texture files full color , tiling , photo realistic images samples available first time callers bbs subscription system although callers 2 hours must subscribe , several subscription rates available people interested materials subscribe library addition basic subscription rate , use purchased time download whichever materials wish 5 ray tracing graphics related mailing lists imagine modeling animation system amiga send subscription requests imagine request email sp paramax com send material imagine email sp paramax com \( dave substituted steve worley maintenance mailing list \) please note unisys com address longer valid ! ! ! lightwave \( amiga 's part newtek 's video toaster \) send subscription requests lightwave request bobsbox rent com send material lightwave bobsbox rent com \( bob lindabury \) toaster send subscription requests listserv karazm math uh edu body subscribe toaster list real 3d another modeling animation system amiga subscribe , send mail containing body subscribe l full name listserv gu uwa edu au rayshade send subscription requests rayshade request cs princeton edu send material rayshade users cs princeton edu \( craig kolb \) alladin 4d amiga send subscription requests subscribe linet org body message write alladin 4d username domain radiance greg ward , author , sends registered \( via e mail \) users digests , notes fixes , updates , etc address lbl gov rend386 send subscription requests rend386 request sunee waterloo edu send material rend386 sunee waterloo edu pov ray dkb raytracers subscribe , send mail containing body subscribe dkb l full name listserv trearn bitnet send material dkb l trearn bitnet mailing list massively parallel rendering send subscription requests mp render request icase edu send material mp render icase edu 6 3d graphics editors public domain , free shareware systems vision 3d mac based program written paul bourke \( pdbourke ccu1 aukland ac nz \) program used generate models directly rayshade radiance file formats \( polygons \) 's shareware listed ftp list brl solid modeling system environments including sgi x11 csg nurbs , plus support non manifold geometry whatever get free via ftp signing returning relevant license , found ftp brl mil uses ray tracing engineering analyses contact ms moyer \( 410 \) 273 tel \( 410 \) 272 fax cad dist brl mil e mail snail mail brl cad distribution aberdeen satellite office 1003 old philadelphia road , suite 103 aberdeen md usa irit constructive solid geometry \( csg \) modeling program pc x11 includes surface support free see ftp list find solid modeling program pc written turbo pascal 6 0 ken van camp available simtel , pd1 msdos directory cmu , namely fritz \( elg cmu edu \) 's based non manifold topology ask info , n't know give away xyz2 xyz2 interactive 3 editor builder written dale p create objects , , dkb raytracer packages xyz2 free found , example , simtel20 msdos zip \( dos \? \? \) 3dmod 's msdos program check erc clarkson edu 128 153 28 12 , pub msdos graphics 3dmod undocumented file format \( 3dmod \( c \) 1991 micah silverman , 25 ave , , new york , tel 315 265 shareware , msdos cad zip simtel20 undocumented file format \( vertex \( amiga \) shareware , send 40 us \( check money order \) art machine , sterling heights , mi usa addition standard file formats , including lightwave , imagine , , turbo silver , geo wavefront , release offers 3d professional rayshade support \( rayshade supported primitive triangle , easily include output rayshade scripts \) latest demo , version 1 62 , available fred fish 727 information , contact author , alex , mi org , phone \( 313 \) 939 icoons \( amiga \) 's spline based object modeller \( icoons interactive coons path editor \) amiga physik unizh ch \( gfx 3d 0 \) 's free \( gnu licence \) requires fpu program look feel cross journeyman imagine , generates objects ttddd format possible load journeyman objects icoons , program used convert objects imagine format author e compel dk phone 45 36 72 33 00 , fax 45 36 72 43 00 's also fred fish disk series n 775 nfotis 3d ver 1 1 \( shareware \? \) 's wsmr simtel20 army mil oak oakland edu zip \( pcs \) menu layout file file handling \( load , save , import , xport \) draw draw 2d objects \( line , circle , box \) 3d draw 3d objects \( mesh , sphere , block \) edit editing features \( copy , move \) surface modify objects \( revolve , , sweep \) image image zooming features \( update , window , half \) option global defaults \( grid , , axis \) plot print drawing picture \( go , image \) render shade objects \( frame , lighting , tune \) layer layer options \( select active layer , set colors \) runs windows 3 1 , outputs pov files demo found wuarchive wustl edu mirrors win3 demo zip author michael gibson stein u washington edu b commercial systems alpha 1 spline based modeling program written university utah features splines trimmed nurbs support boolean operations sweeps , bending , warping , flattening etc groups objects , transformations extensible object types applications include nc , animation utilities , , fem analysis , etc rendering subsystem , support animations support following platforms hp 300 800 's \( x11r4 , hp ux 6 5 \) , sgi 4d pi machines \( x11r4 gl , irix 3 3 1 \) , sun sparcstation \( x11r4 , sunos 4 1 1 \) licensing distribution handled egs glenn , president engineering geometry systems 275 east south temple , suite 305 salt lake city , ut \( 801 \) 575 cs utah edu educational pricing charge 675 per platform may run system many different workstations type wish platform also 250 licensing fee portable standard lisp \( psl \) bundled system need obtain additional license university utah psl following address professor robert kessler computer science department university utah salt lake city , utah egs handle licensing psl u institutions 300 usd nominal fee nfotis vertigo educational institution program package used industrial design , architectural , scientific visualization , educational , broadcast , imaging post production fields 'll quoting letter sent nfotis donate fully configured vertigo 3d graphics software worth 29 , per package qualified educational institutions licencing number silicon graphics personal iris power series workstations use iris indigo station , also licence vertigo revolution software \( worth 12 , \) interested participating program please send letter mail fax \( 604 684 \) institution 's letterhead briefly outlining potential uses vertigo together following information 1 unix version 2 model number sgi systems 3 peripheral devices 4 third party software participants asked contribute per institution cover costs manual , administration , shipping recommend vertigo users subscribe technical support services annual fee receive technical assistance support hotline , bug fixes , software upgrades manual updates educational institution waive 750 administration fee support purchased annual support fee 2 , 500 plus following cost additional machines number machines 2 20 20 additional cost per machine 700 600 's also 5 day training program nfotis contact vertigo technology inc suite 1010 1030 west georgia st vancouver , bc canada , phone 604 684 2113 fax 604 684 anyone know offers , alias , , wavefront , etc \? \? \? would interesting part ! ! nfotis 2 basically , 's solid modeling kernel top build application \( \) available license cornell programmable automation cornell university 106 engineering theory center ithaca , ny 14853 license fees low educational institutions gov't agencies internal commercial licenses dissemination licenses available information packet , write address , send address marisa cpa tn cornell edu \( richard marisa \) spatial technology 's solid modelling kernel callable c heard many universities got free copies company person contact regarding academic institutions scott owens , e mail spatial com address spatial technology , inc st , bldg boulder , co 80301 phone \( 303 \) 449 , fax \( 303 \) 449 movie byu cquel byu basically understanding , fem pre post system 's fairly old today , still serves people mech eng depts 's superseded cquel byu \( pronounced sequel \) 's complete modelling , animation visualization package runs usual workstation environments \( sun , dec , hp , sgi , ibm rs6000 , others \) get demo version \( 30 days trial period \) either sending 20 usd address blank tape costs 1 , 500 full run time licence contact engineering computer graphics lab 368 clyde building , brigham young univ provo , ut 84602 phone 801 378 e mail cquel byu edu soon add stuff get reply fax 's volume renderer marketed inc \( fairfield , iowa phone 515 472 \) , running pcs 386 fpu least call info 3d volume renderer windows features include direct ray traced volume rendering , color alpha mapping , gradient lighting , animation , reflections shadows runs pc \( 386 higher \) least 8 bit video card \( svga fine \) windows 3 x costs 495 contact jaguar software inc 573 main st , suite 9b winchester , \( 617 \) 729 world std com \( john w \) 7 scene description languages nff neutral file format , eric haines simple , procedural database generators spd package , many objects floating various ftp sites 's also previewer written hp starbase e haines also 's one written vogle , use devices vogle output \( check sites carrying vogle , like gondwana ecr mu oz au \) object file format , dec 's randy rost \( rost kpc com \) object archive server seems future version , 'll remove ref nfotis available also mail server obtain help using service , send message subject line containing word help null message body object archive server decwrl dec com ftp places get , see relevant place 's previewer sgi 4d machines , called preview godzilla cgl rmit oz au previewers xview sunview , also gondwana tddd 's library 3d objects translators , nff , rayshade , imagine vort objects edited copy announcement follows \( raytracing news , v4 , 3 \) new library 3d objects available via ftp , steve worley \( worley cup portal com \) assembled set 150 3d objects binary format called tddd objects range human figures airplanes , semi trucks lampposts objects freely distributable , describe order convert objects human readable format , file specification tddd included directory objects also shareware system called ttdddlib \( officially hubcap clemson edu \) convert \( ala pbm \) various object formats imagine ttddd \( extension tddd \? \) , , nff , rayshade 4 0 , vort source included amiga unix executables amiga also outputs framemaker mif files isometric views postscript p3d pittsburgh supercomputing center p3d uses lisp slight extensions store three dimensional models simple lisp interpreter included p3d release , need access vendor 's lisp run software mouse driven user interfaces motif , open look , silicon graphics gl , subroutine library generating p3d without ever looking underlying lisp p3d software currently supports nine renderers painter painter 's algorithm , , silicon graphics inc gl language , generic phigs , sun phigs , dec phigs , rayshade , art ray tracer \( vort package \) pixar renderman code available via anonymous ftp machines ftp psc edu , directory pub p3d , nic funet fi , directory pub graphics programs p3d renderman pixar 's renderman free call pixar details 8 solids description formats eec 's esprit project 322 cad \( cad interfaces \) developed neutral file format transfer cad data \( curves , surfaces , solid models cad systems cad \( computer aided analysis \) cam \( computer aided manufacturing \) b iges v 5 1 tries define standard tranfer solid models csg current standard number ansi y14 1987 documentation , might want contact nancy flower ncga technical services standards , 1 800 225 ext 325 cost 100 standard available electronic format c step slowly emerging standard tries encompass geometrical information , also things like fem , etc main bodies besides standard nist darpa get information sending mail cme nist gov putting line send index body \( subject \) area message people rutherford appleton lab also working step tools express compiler exchange file parser , available source form \( free \) research purposes soon also express based database system tools contact mike mead , phone 44 \( 0235 \) 44 6710 \( fax x \) , e mail mm inf rl ac uk ! mcsun ! uknet ! ! mm mm inf rl ac uk nsfnet relay ac uk end part 1 resource listing nick \( nikolaos \) fotis national technical univ athens , greece home 16 esperidon st , internet nfotis theseas ntua gr halandri , gr 152 32 uucp mcsun ! ariadne ! theseas ! nfotis athens , greece fax \( 30 1 \) 77 84 578
nfotis ntua gr \( nick c fotis \) subject \( 27 apr 93 \) computer graphics resource listing weekly part 2 3 lines 1029 reply nfotis theseas ntua gr \( nick \( nikolaos \) fotis \) organization national technical univ athens archive name graphics resources list part2 last modified 1993 04 27 computer graphics resource listing weekly posting part 2 3 last change 27 april 1993 14 plotting packages gnuplot 3 2 one best 2 3 plotting packages , online help 's command line driven interactive function plotting utility unix , msdos , amiga , archimedes , vms platforms \( least ! \) freely distributed , supports many terminals , plotters , printers easily extensible include new devices posted comp sources misc version 3 0 , plus 2 patches practically find everywhere \( use archie find site near ! \) comp graphics gnuplot newsgroup devoted discussion gnuplot xvgr xmgr \( ace gr \) xmgr xy plotting tool unix workstations using x openwindows xview version called xvgr suns collectively , 2 tools known ace gr compiling xmgr requires motif toolkit version 1 1 x11r4 xmgr compile x11r3 motif 1 0x check ftp ccalmr ogi edu 129 95 72 34 ccalmr pub acegr xmgr 2 09 tar z \( motif version \) ccalmr pub acegr xvgr 2 09 tar z \( xview version \) comments , suggestions , bug reports paul j turner ese ogi edu \( mail fails , try ese ogi edu \) due time constraints , replies far robot release 0 45 2 limited 3 based xview 3 , written c fortran \( need fortran compiler f2c translator \) mainly tested sun4 , less decstations check ftp astro psu edu \( 128 118 147 28 \) , pub astrod vg plotting library library fortran callable routines sunspot nist gov 129 6 64 151 xgobi 's developed bellcore , speciality multidimensional data sets analysis exploration call language also , works x11 client using athena widget set \( ascii terminal \) 's distributed free charge statlib cmu get via e mail , send email statlib temper stat cmu edu body area message , put line send xgobi general want pick via ftp , connect lib stat cmu edu log statlib use e mail address password type cd general mget xgobi warning 's 2 mb sources large postscript manual read relevant readme decide whether need runs vax vms supposedly unix 's set fortran routines freely available \( though copyrighted requiring nominal fee 50 \) includes contour plots support various devices , including ps contact deimos caltech edu host shorty cs wisc edu 128 105 2 8 pub tar z unknown details epigraph pcs call phys lgu spb su \( vladimir j \) details get program demo \( \) play version , sent 10 1251 budapest 60 hungary ph fax budapest ph amigas , shareware \( 30 usd , 20 uk 40 aust \) advanced 2d package big list features contact dr alan baxter bio cam ac uk , cambridge university department pathology , tennis court road , cambridge cb2 , uk athena plotter widget set version v6 0 based gregory bond 's version v5 beta added stuff scientific graphs , e log axes , free scalable axes , xy , added plotter callbacks v4 , e g request current pointer position , cut rectangle plotting area zooming version v6 0 log bugs fixed log improvements v6 beta additionally changes extensions , besides origin frame lines axes lines positions line plots different line types \( lines , points , lines points , impulses , lines impulses , steps , bars \) , line styles \( solid , dotted , dashed , dot dashed \) marker types data points legend right left hand side plot optional drawing pixmap instead window layout callback aligning axis positions using multiple plotters one application available export lcs mit edu , directory contrib plotter scientific 2d plotting manipulation program next \( requires nextstep 3 0 \) , 's shareware features ascii import export eps export copy , cut , paste data buffer free number data points , data buffer , document window selective open save plotting many styles automatic legend linear logarithmic axes two different axes text graphic color support zoom moving axis conversions free hand data manipulations \( cut , edit , move , etc \) data editor sorting data absolute , relative , free defined error bars calculating buffers \( , , , \) background \( linear , shirley , , bezier \) integration relative integration fitting one free defined functions linear regression calculations \( , , , , sin , cos , log , etc \) function generator spline interpolation least square smooth fft smooth fft esca calculations database something find ftp cs tu berlin de 130 149 17 7 pub next science 1 tar z author michael 73 , 1000 berlin 12 , germany mike rz berlin mpg de plplot plplot scientific plotting package many systems , small \( micro \) large \( super \) alike despite small size , enough power satisfy users , including standard x plots , plots , log log plots , contour plots , 3d plots , mesh plots , bar charts pie charts multiple graphs \( different sizes \) may placed single page multiple lines graph different line styles , widths colors supported virtually infinite number distinct area fill patterns may used almost 1000 characters extended character set includes four different fonts , greek alphabet host mathematical , musical , symbols fonts scaled size various effects many different output device drivers available \( system dependent \) , including portable metafile format renderer freely available \( copyrighted \) via anonymous ftp ph utexas edu , directory pub plplot present \( v 4 13 \) , plplot known work following systems unix sunos , ix , hp ux , unicos , dg ux , ultrix platforms vms , amiga exec , ms dos , os 2 , next authors many main supporters maurice lebrun mjl fusion ph utexas edu plplot kernel metafile , xterm , xwindow , tektronix , amiga drivers geoff furnish furnish fusion ph utexas edu ms dos os 2 drivers tony richardson amr egr duke edu plplot next 2 plotting package cmu , filename tmp sm 2 1 0 tar z \( probably ftp cmu edu andrew cmu edu machines \? \) gle gle high quality graphics package scientists runs variety platforms \( pcs , , unix \) drivers xwindows , regis , , pc graphics cards , , hp plotters , postscript printers , epson compatible printers laserjet printers provides latex quality fonts , well full support postscript fonts graphing module provides full control features graphs graphics primitives include user defined subroutines complex pictures diagrams accompanying utilities include surface \( hidden line surface plotting \) , contour \( contour plots \) , \( manipulation data files \) , \( fitting arbitrary equations data \) available via anon ftp places pc gle simtel , wuarchive wustl edu , mirrors , msdos graphics gle unix gle zephyr grace cri nz \( 131 203 1 5 \) , pub gle unix vms gle zephyr grace cri nz \( 131 203 1 5 \) , pub gle vms mailing list send message listserver biol scarolina edu , message boyd containing sub name maintainer dean biol scarolina edu 15 image analysis software image processing display pc mac based tools \( multi platform software \) imdisp imdisp written jpl nasa sites simple display , enhancing , smoothing works fits vicar pds data formats nasa read tiff images , know dimensions pc macs labview 2 labview used framework image processing tools provides graphical programming environment using block diagram sketch program graphical elements representing programming elements hundreds functions already available connected using wiring tool create block diagram \( program \) functions block diagrams represent include digital signal processing filtering , numerical analysis , statistics , etc tool allows virtual instrument \( vi , software file looks acts like real laboratory instrument \) used part virtual instrument national instruments markets plug digital signal processing \( dsp \) boards pc allow real time acquisition analysis personal computer new software tools dsp allowing engineers harness power technology tools range low level debugging software high level block diagram development software three levels dsp programming associated nb dsp2300 board labview use nb dsp2300 analysis library ffts , power spectra , filters routines callable think c macintosh workshop \( mpw \) c execute nb dsp2300 board analysis virtual interface library ready use vis optimized nb dsp2300 use national instruments developers toolkit includes optimizing c compiler , assembler linker low level programming dsp hardware approach offers highest level performance must difficult terms ease use use national instruments interface kit software package utility functions memory management data communications downloading code nb dsp2300 board \( easiest route development custom code \) ultimage concept vi concept vi france family image processing virtual instruments \( vis \) give labview 2 \( described \) users high end tools designing , integrating monitoring imaging control systems vi software file looks acts like real laboratory instrument typical applications concept vi include , surveillance , machine vision , production testing , biomedical imaging , electronic microscopy remote sensing ultimage concept vi addresses applications require qualitative quantitative analysis includes complete set functions image enhancement , histogram equalization , spatial frequency filtering , isolation features , thresholding , mathematical morphology analysis , density measurement , object counting , sizing characterization program loads images minimum resolution 64 64 , pixel depth 8 , 16 , 32 bits , one image plane standard input output formats include pict , tiff , , formats imported image enhancement features include lookup table transformations , spatial linear non linear filters , frequency filtering , arithmetic logic operations , geometric transformations , among others morphological transformations include erosion , dilation , opening , closing , hole removal , object separation , extraction skeletons , among others quantitative analysis provides objects' detection , measurement , morphological distribution measures include area , perimeter , center gravity , moment inertia , orientation , length relevant , shape factors equivalence measures saved ascii format program also provides macro scripting integration custom modules 3 view command plots perspective data graph image intensity mountains valleys plot histogram tool plotted either linear logarithmic scale twenty eight arithmetic logical operations provide masking averaging sections images , noise removal , making comparisons , etc 13 spatial filters alter pixel intensities based local intensity include high pass filters contrast outlines frequency data resulting fft analysis displayed either \( real , imaginary \) components \( phase , magnitude \) data morphological transformations useful data defining objects removing artifacts transformations include thresholding , , even hole filling program 's quantitative analysis measurements include area , perimeter , center mass , object counts , angle points , inc 2455 bennett valley road santa rosa , ca 707 579 iplab spectrum iplab spectrum supports image processing analysis lacks morphology quantitative analysis features provided ultimage concept vi using scripting tools , user tells system operations performed problem far many basic operations require manual intervention tool supports ffts , 16 arithmetic operations pixel alteration , movie command cycling windows macintosh based tools ncsa image , ncsa ncsa provides whole suite public domain visualization tools macintosh , primarily aimed researchers wanting visualize results numerical modelling calculations applications , documentation , source code available anonymous ftp ftp ncsa uiuc edu commercial versions ncsa programs developed spyglass spyglass , inc 701 drive champaign , il 61820 \( 217 \) 355 6000 fax 217 355 nih image available alw nih gov \( 128 231 128 7 \) \( preferably \) zippy nimh nih gov 128 231 98 32 , directory pub image painting image manipulation tools , macro language , tools measuring areas , distances angles , counting things using frame grabber card , record sequences images played back movie invoke user defined convolution matrix filters , gaussian import raw data tab ascii , 1 2 byte quantities also histograms even 3 plots limited 8 bits pixel , though 8 bits map color lookup table runs mac 256 color screen fpu \( get version zippy nimh nih gov \) data translation , inc 100 dr marlboro , 01752 508 481 3700 blue solutions place thousand oaks , ca 805 492 tcl image complete family \( hardware accelerator applications software \) scientific image processing analysis video rate capture , display , processing , analysis high resolution color images includes c source code tcl image software package scientific , quantitative image processing analysis provides complete language capture , enhancement , extraction quantitative information gray scale images tcl image 200 functions image processing , contains elements needed full programming language algorithm development variables control structures easily extensible script \( indirect command \) files script files simply text files contain tcl image commands executed normal commands include ability pass parameters direct capture video images supported via popular frame grabber boards tcl image comes view utility provides conversion common image file types , tiff 725 parkway knoxville , tn 615 966 satellite image workshop comes number satellite pictures \( raw data \) sorts image enhancing 'll need least mac ii co processor 256 color display large harddisk program n't run system 7 x v1 documentation contact address given liz smith , jet propulsion laboratory , ms 300 323 , 4800 oak grove dr , pasadena , ca 91109 \( 818 \) 354 visualization workbench electronic imaging software system performs interactive image analysis scientific 2d 3d plotting paragon imagine 171 lincoln st lowell , 508 441 2112 adobe photoshop tool supports colors 24 bit images 256 levels grey scale image imported various editing tools typical used macintosh based applications include eraser , pencil , brush air brush advanced tools control interaction pasted selection receiving site also incorporated example , red pixels selection easily preventing pasted photoshop transparencies ranging 0 100 , allowing create ghost overlays tools include control brightness contrast , color balancing , hue saturation modification spectrum equalization images subjected various signal processing algorithms smooth image , blur edges , locate edges image scaling also supported storage savings , images compressed using standard algorithms , including externally supplied compression jpeg , storm technologies latest version adobe photoshop supports import numerous image formats including epsf , epsf , tiff , pict resource , amiga iff ilbm , compuserve gif , macpaint , pixar , , ct , tga adobe systems , inc road po box 7900 mountain view , ca 94039 7900 415 961 4400 colorstudio colorstudio image editing paint package features adobe photoshop decidedly complex therefore difficult use several steps often required accomplish done single step using photoshop application requires great deal available disk space one easily end images 30 mb range program provides variety powerful selection tools including auto selection tool lets user choose image areas basis color , close hues , color range mask n't know usa 40 eisenhower drive , nj 201 845 6100 systems high resolution image analysis software provides processing tools work multiple images , enhance edit , measure variety global feature parameters , interpret data systems , 355 w olive ave , 100 sunnyvale , ca 94086 408 733 digital darkroom latest release digital darkroom five new selection editing tools enhancing images one feature allows user select part image simply painting new polyline selection tool creates selection tool single pixel wide selections brush lets operator paint selected portion image note true color image enhancement tool tool used user intends operate grey scale images noted digital darkroom powerful either adobe photoshop colorstudio silicon beach software carroll ctr rd , suite j san diego , ca 619 695 dimple compatible system 6 05 system 7 0 , requires mac lc ii series 256 colours , recommended min 6mb ram capability reading erdas files functions include image enhancement , 3d contour plots , image statistics , supervised unsupervised classification , image transformations also means \( image operation language \) write transformations image rectification , however dimple compatable latest version 1 4 beta stage testing dimple initially developed teaching tool good purpose dimple runs colour macintosh product still development phase e n't inbuilt features packages , coming along nicely inbuilt language writing programs processing image , defining convolution filters etc dimple full mac application pull menus etc unprotected software process software solutions , po box , wollongong , new south wales , australia 2500 phone 61 42 fax 61 42 enhance enhance tool supports measurements additionally provides angle data tool 80 mathematical filter variations laplacian , medium noise filter , etc files saved either tiff , pict , epsf text \( however epsf files ca n't imported \) road des moines , ia 515 270 image analyst image processing product users need extract quantitative data video images image analyst lets users configure sophisticated image processing measurement routines without necessity knowing programming language designed tasks computing number size cells images projected video cameras attached microscopes , enhancing measuring distances image analyst provides users array field proven video analysis techniques enable easily assemble sequence instructions enhance feature appearance count objects determine density , shape , size , position , movement perform object feature extraction conduct analysis automatically image analyst works either board standard video camera , disk stored image within minutes , without need programming , image analyst user set process identify analyze element image measurements statistics automatically semi automatically generated tiff pict files captured video tape images image analyst recognizes items images based size , shape position tool provides direct support data translation frame grabbers menu command allows image capture vcr video camera ntsc pal devices 2 types files , image related sequence file holds processing , measurements analysis user defines automated sequences set regions interest \( roi \) represented movable , sizable boxes atop image inside roi , program find distance two edges , area shape , thickness wall , etc image analyst finds center , edge positions automatically application also provides tools user work interactively find edge object also supports histograms color look table \( clut \) tool , inc 775 middlesex turnpike billerica , 508 667 7900 iplab signal corp 374 maple ave e vienna , va 703 281 fax 703 281 menu driven image processing software supports 24 bit color pseudocolor grayscale image display manipulation map ii among mac gis systems , map ii distributed john wiley integrated image analysis image stanford try anonymous ftp sumex aim stanford edu pd source image v2 , ready run code mac image v3 windows dos pc based tools ccd richard berry 's ccd imaging book bell contains \( optional \? \) disks image manipulating software source code included erdas erdas things want rectification , classification , transformations \( canned user defined \) , overlays , filters , contrast enhancement , etc using thesis changed topic bit work became secondary erdas , inc 2801 buford highway suite 300 atlanta , ga 404 248 9000 fax 404 248 9400 rsvga getting speed program called rsvga available digital image ltd british columbia ibm pc 's clones , cheap \( 400 \) stuff erdas fast powerful , though limited experience erdas used rsvga 6 7 landsat bands good starter program except manual imagine 32 's 32 bit package suppose pcs called program modest amount image processing add , subtract , multiply , divide , display , plot x cut across image also display number images simultaneously company , santa barbara , ca pc vista announced 1989 august edition known available mike richmond , whose email addresses richmond berkeley edu richmond berkeley edu mail address michael richmond , astronomy department , campbell hall , berkeley , ca 94720 latest version pc vista , version 1 7 , includes source code help files , also complete set executable programs number sample fits images wish use source code , need microsoft c , version 5 0 later compilers may work , require substantial modifications receive documentation nine double density \( 360k \) floppies \( three quad density 3 1 2 inch floppies \( 1 44m \) everything , send request pc vista , together name us mail address , office technology licensing 2150 ave , suite 510 berkeley , ca include check \( 's checks fine \) purchase order 150 00 u dollars , address inside continental u , 165 00 otherwise , made university california cover duplication mailing costs software tools 's set software tools put canyon state systems software free , rather cheap 30 heard handle formats used frame grabber software mirage 's image processing software written jim gunn astrophysics dept princeton run pc among platforms forth based system e forth language many image processing displaying functions built data translation source book data translation company massachusetts publishes free book containing vendors data analysis hardware software compatible data translation frame grabbers surely find much pc related stuff couple canadians written program named maximum entropy image deconvolution company named digital signal processing software , something like , software mentioned article astronomy magazine , either jan feb 92 \( article ccd 's vs film \) jandel scientific \( java \) another software package \( java \) put jandel scientific jandel scientific , 65 koch road , , ca , \( 415 \) 924 , \( 800 \) 874 1888 runs ms dos platform uses 32 bit graphics card \( vista \) , released version support number super vga cards full blown remote sensed data processing system menu driven \( character based screen \) , use windowed user interface hardware protected micro barrier reef image system developed csiro \( commonwealth scientific industrial organization \) marketed supported mpa australia \( 51 road , , victoria tel 61 3 724 fax 61 3 724 \) educational commercial prices , prepared set aside first educational licence subsequent ones come cheaper \( need ! \) installed sites worldwide widely used anu remote sensing lab dartmouth currently uses terra mar 's , 486 pcs fancy display hardware terra mar resource information services , inc 1937 landings drive mountain view , ca 94043 415 964 6900 fax 415 964 unix based tools iraf \( image reduction analysis facility \) developed national optical astronomy observatory , kitt peak az free , ftp noao edu 140 252 1 1 complement stsci edu 130 167 1 2 email iraf noao edu details apparently one de facto standards astronomical image community issue newsletter also seem support well users works vms also last heard , practically shell top vms unix shells 's suggested get copy display x windows flexible extendable tons \( literally 3 linear feet \) documentation general user , skilled user , programmer alv sun specific image toolkit version 2 0 6 posted comp sources sun also available via email alv users request cs ac uk aips astronomical image processing system contact nrao edu \( also see usenet newsgroups alt sci astro aips sci astro fits \) built nrao \( national radio astronomy observatory , hq charlottesville , va , sites nm , az , wv \) software distributed 9 track , exabyte , dat , \( non anonymous \) internet ftp documentation \( postscript mostly \) available via anonymous ftp baboon cv nrao edu \( 192 33 115 103 \) , directory pub aips pub aips text publ installation requires building system thus fortran c compiler package read write fits data \( see sci astro fits \) , primarily reduction , analysis , image enhancement radio astronomy data radio telescopes , particularly large array \( \) , synthesis instrument consists almost 300 programs everything copying data sophisticated deconvolution , e g via maximum entropy x11 based image tool \( xas \) tek compatible xterm based graphics tool built aips xas tool hardware functionality international imaging systems model 70 display unit image arithmetic , etc code mostly fortran 77 system c language modules , available suns , ibm rs 6000 , dec ultrix , convex , cray \( unicos \) , alliant support planned hp 9000 7xx , solaris 2 1 , maybe sgi currently project aips underway rewrite algorithmic functionality aips modern setting , using c object oriented approach whereas aips proprietary code \( licensed free non profit institutions \) owner nrao nsf , aips public domain level , international effort contributions us , canada , england , netherlands , india , australia name laboimage \( version 4 0 x11 \) 's written c , currently runs sun 3 xxx , sun 4 xxx \( 5 , 4 0 4 0 3 \) sunview expert system image segmentation written common lisp used following domains computer science \( image analysis \) , medicine , biology , physics distributed free charge \( source code \) available via anonymous ftp ftp ads com \( 128 229 30 16 \) , pub vision list archive shareware laboimage contact prof thierry pun , computer vision group computing science center , u geneva 12 , rue du , ch 1207 geneva switzerland phone 41 \( 22 \) 787 65 82 fax 41 \( 22 \) 735 39 05 e mail pun cui ch pun bitnet figaro originally made vms , obtained keith australia \( ks gov au \) unix sam caltech \( sns deimos caltech edu \) 's sun khoros moved scientific visualization category vista real thing available via anonymous ftp lowell edu email vista lowell edu details total size less disimp \( device independent software image processing \) powerful system providing user friendliness high functionality interactive times feature description disimp incorporates rich library image processing utilities spatial data options functions easily accessed via disimp executive menu modular design groups image processes function logical structure means complicated processes simply progression series modules processes include image rectification , classification \( unsupervised supervised \) , intensity transformations , three dimensional display principal component analysis disimp also supports simple effective enhancement techniques filtering , band subtraction host configuration requirements running unix workstations , disimp capable processing computational intensive techniques interactive processing times disimp available runtime programmer 's environments using programmers environment , utilities developed specific applications programs graphics governed icon based display panel allows quick displayed image manipulations look tables , colour stretches , changes histograms , zooming panning interactively driven control range geographic projections enables disimp integrate data image , graphic textual types images rectified number coordinate systems , providing true geographic knowledge essential ground overlays , text vector data added enhance referenced imagery system flexible package allowing users various skill levels determine working environment , including amount help required disimp comes fully configured optional extras purchase price includes functionality required professional processing remote sensed data information , please contact business manager , engineering group systems division , 627 chapel street , south , australia telephone 61 3 825 5555 fax 61 3 826 6463 global imaging software use global imaging software process avhrr data , dish final display select chunk five band data pass , automatic navigation , calibrate albedo temp , convert byte , register window , relatively automatically classification routines speak , n't difficult write programmer 's module small operation one designs , one codes , one sells around number years , sold weather service navy runs hp9000 hp ux supports 24 bit display hips \( human information processing laboratory 's image processing system \) michael landy co wrote sell general purpose package image processing used basically usual image processing applications \( robotics , medical , satellite , engineering , oil exploration , etc \) called hips , deals sequences images way deals single images growing since first wrote , additions us well huge user contributed library feature description hips set image processing modules together provide powerful suite tools interested research , system development teaching handles sequences images \( movies \) precisely manner single frames programs subroutines developed simple image transformations , filtering , convolution , fourier transform processing , edge detection line drawing manipulation , digital image compression transmission methods , noise generation , image statistics computation 150 image transformation programs developed result , almost image processing task performed quickly conveniently additionally , hips allows users easily integrate custom routines new users become effective using hips first day hips features images self documenting image stored system contains history transformations applied image hips includes small set subroutines primarily deals standardized image sequence header , large library image transformation tools form unix comes complete source code , line manual pages , line documentation host configuration requirements originally developed new york university , hips represents one extensive flexible vision image processing environments currently available runs unix operating system modular flexible , provides automatic documentation actions , almost entirely independent special equipment hips use variety computers including vax , sun , apollo , , ncr tower , iris , ibm , etc image display input , drivers supplied \( \) image processors , sun 2 , sun 3 , sun 4 , sun 386i consoles also supply user contributed drivers number windowing packages \( sun gfx , sun console , matrox vip 1024 , iti ip 512 , , macintosh ii , x windowing system , iris \) package includes interface crs 4000 simple matter interface hips frame stores , put interested users touch users interfaced hips max video hips easily adapted image display devices 98 hips machine independent availability hips proven highly flexible system , interactive research tool , production oriented tasks easy use , quickly adapted extended new uses hips supplied magnetic tape unix tar format \( either reel reel sun cartridge \) , comes source code , libraries , library tion masks , line documentation manual pages michael landy software p box 373 , prince street station new york , ny voice \( 212 \) 998 fax \( 212 \) 995 msl cns nyu edu mira please confuse animation system montreal altogether different beasts ! nfotis mira stands microcomputer image reduction analysis mira gives workstation level performance 386 486 dos computers using svga cards 256 color modes 1024x768 mira contains handsome functional gui mouse keystroke operated mira reads writes tiff fits formats , native formats number ccd cameras , uncompressed binary images byte , short integer , 4 byte real pixel format 1 2 dimensions result image processing operation short integer real pixels , input image mira operation using short floating point arithmetic maintain precision accuracy pixel format 100 functions hand coded assembly language maximum speed intel hardware entire graphical interface also written assembly language maximize speed windowing operations windows 2 image 1 image data display analysis dedicated cursors read position value value real time move mouse also smooth , real time contrast brightness stretch panning magnified portion displayed image \( \) , operated mouse wide selection grayscale , pseudocolor , random palettes provided , palettes generated supported functions include following image image interpolation image constant operations abs value , polynomial pixel value , , 1 x , log , , clip values upper lower limits , short real real short combine images mean , median , mode , sum pixel values , without mean , median , mode image section filters laplacian , sobel edge operator , directional gradient , line , gaussian , elliptical rectangular equal weight filters , masking , median filters , user defined filter kernel ellipse , rectangle , line , gradient , gaussian , user defined filters rotated specified angle ccd data reduction flat fielding , dark subtraction , column bias removal , remove bad pixels column defects , region target mean , median , modal value create , mosaic x n 1 2 images get larger image , collapse 2 image 1 image plot 1 section collapsed section 2 image , plot histogram region image review change image information header data , rename keywords , plot keyword values set images photometry elliptical circular aperture photometry , brightness profile , photometry set upper lower , area inside traced polygon interactive background fitting removal part image , fit elliptical aperture shape image interactive 2 image contrast brightness , x diagonal plot pixel values , distance two points , compute region stats , ` , pan x , location image center , zoom 1 16 10 times , change cursor rectangle crosshair , full image crosshair , , adjust cursor size image select linear , log gamma transfer function histogram equalization interactive specified image offset computation sampling registration interactive 1 image zoom x steps 1 2 2 times current , center plot , enlarge framed area 4 plot buffers cycled interactive data analysis polynomial fitting , point deletion , , change value , point weighting , linear quadratic smoothing , revert unit point weights original data buffer , substitute results data buffer pass back calling function dump data buffer \( overlays error bars \) file printer change user specified coordinate system image combination display , hardcopy halftone printout hp pcl compatible printers \( laserjet , deskjet , etc \) documentation 300 pages custom vinyl binder cost 995 usd copy available axiom research , inc box tucson , az \( 602 \) 791 phone fax international marketing rep scientific corporation , tucson , arizona end part 2 resource listing nick \( nikolaos \) fotis national technical univ athens , greece home 16 esperidon st , internet nfotis theseas ntua gr halandri , gr 152 32 uucp mcsun ! ariadne ! theseas ! nfotis athens , greece fax \( 30 1 \) 77 84 578
nfotis ntua gr \( nick c fotis \) subject \( 27 apr 93 \) computer graphics resource listing weekly part 3 3 lines reply nfotis theseas ntua gr \( nick \( nikolaos \) fotis \) organization national technical univ athens archive name graphics resources list part3 last modified 1993 04 27 computer graphics resource listing weekly posting part 3 3 last change 27 april 1993 11 scene generators geographical data maps data files dems \( digital elevation models \) dems \( digital elevation models \) well cartographic data huge available spectrum xerox com 192 70 225 78 , pub map contact lee moore webster research center , xerox corp voice 1 \( 716 \) 422 arpa , internet moore xerox com check also ucsb edu \( 128 111 254 105 \) , pub dems nfotis many files also available cd rom usgs 1 2 , 000 , 000 scale digital line graph \( dlg \) data contains 50 states price 28 , call visit offices menlo park , reston , virginia \( 800 usa maps \) data user services division bureau census also data cd rom \( tso standard format \) derived usgs 1 100 , 000 map data call \( 301 \) 763 4100 info bbs \( 301 \) 763 1568 dr dobbs 198 march 1993 u defense mapping agency , cooperation counterpart agencies canada , u k , australia , released digital chart world \( \) chart consists 1 5 gigabytes reasonable quality vector data distributed four cd roms includes , rivers , roads , , airports , cities , towns , spot elevations , depths , 100 , 000 place names compatible 200 00 available u geological survey p box denver federal center denver , co digital distribution services energy , mines , resources canada 615 booth street ottawa , canada director general military survey \( survey 3 \) avenue , middlesex united kingdom director survey , australian army department defense campbell park offices \( 4 24 \) campbell act australia fractal landscape generators public domain many people written fractal landscape generators example mac generators written pdbourke ccu1 aukuni ac nz \( paul bourke \) many programs available ftp sites mail archive servers check archie commercial vista pro 3 0 amiga virtual reality labs list price 100 address court san luis obispo , ca telephone fax \( 805 \) 545 8515 scenery animator \( also amiga \) caliber vista pro 2 check natural graphics p box 1963 , ca phone \( 916 \) 624 n't forget ask companion programs data disks tapes vista pro 3 ported pcs cia world map ii note database quite date , structured need standard world cartographic data , wait digital chart world 1 1m database produced defense mapping agency 's available , together searching viewing software , number cd roms later summer check hanauma stanford edu ucsd edu \( see ftp list \) cia database consists , rivers political boundaries form line strokes also hanauma stanford edu array elevation data , containing one ieee floating point number every half degree longitude latitude program decoding database , , found machine arc umn edu \( 137 66 130 11 \) 's another program , reads compressed cia data bank file builds phigs structure uses phigs extension known polyline sets performance , use regular polylines ask joe stewart joes lpi liant com raw data stanford require package able view \( posted comp sources unix \) exact , 'll compile routines , whole package ncar data ncar \( national center atmospheric research \) many types terrain data , ranging elevation datasets various resolutions , information soil types , vegetation , etc data free charge 40 90 , depending data volume media \( exabyte tape , cartridge , 9 track tape , ibm pc floppy , ftp transfer available \) data archive mostly research oriented , hobbyist oriented information , email ncar ucar edu unc data tapes data 2 public domain tapes data comparison testing various volume rendering algorithms \( mainly mri ct scans \) tapes distributed softlab unc chapel hill \( softlab cs unc edu \) data sets \( volume ii \) also available via anonymous ftp omicron cs unc edu 128 109 136 159 pub softlab chvrtd nasa many us agencies nasa publish cd roms many data various space missions , eg viking mars , magellan venus , etc especially nasa , would suggest call following address info national space science date center goddard space flight center greenbelt , maryland 20771 telephone \( 301 \) 286 6695 email address request nssdca gsfc nasa gov data catalog \( data \) available online internet users telnet nssdca gsfc nasa gov \( 128 183 10 4 \) log 'nodis' \( password \) also dial \( 301 \) 286 9000 \( 300 , 1200 , 2400 baud , 8 bits , parity , one stop \) enter number prompt , enter md carriage return system responds call complete , enter carriage returns get username log 'nodis' \( password \) nssdca also anonymous ftp site , comprehensive list 's available present earth sciences data 's listing anonymous ftp sites earth science data , including imagery listing called earth sciences resources internet , get via anonymous ftp csn org 128 138 213 21 directory name internet resources earth sci sites include soest hawaii edu 128 171 151 121 pub avhrr images avhrr images ames arc nasa gov 128 102 18 3 pub space cdrom images magellan viking missions etc pub space index contains listing files available whole archive \( index 200k \) 's also e mail server people without internet access send letter archive server ames arc nasa gov \( ames ! archive server \) subject letter \( body \) , use commands like send space index send space shuttle 23 91 \( capitalization important ! text files handled email server present \) larc nasa gov 128 155 23 47 pub gifs misc landsat landsat photos gif jpeg format shut nfotis anyone copy archive \? \? others daily values river discharge , , daily weather data available , central ave , boulder co 80301 disks expensive , around 500 , quantity discounts \( 303 \) 938 check vmd cso uiuc edu 128 174 5 98 , wx directory carries data regarding surface analysis , weather radar , sat view pics gif format \( updated hourly \) pioneer unm edu 129 24 9 217 space planetary image facility \( located university new mexico campus \) ftp server provides anonymous ftp access 150 cd roms data images disk earthquake data , , gravity , info available \( national geophysical data center \) , 325 broadway , boulder , co 80303 \( 303 \) 497 \( least us \) sells landsat mss data older two years old 200 per scene , talking similar deal landsat tm data mss data 4 bands , 80 meter resolution check anonymous ftp ftp ncsa uiuc edu unix alpha shape tool creates convex alpha shapes \( generalization convex hull \) 3d point sets grips ii \( gov raster image processing software \) cd rom available cd rom inc 1 800 821 49 code viewing \( arc raster graphics \) files available grips ii cd rom u army engineer labs \( juan perez \) code also available via ftp \( zip archive spectrum xerox com \) range data , l three dimensional image data files , tech report , , national research council canada , ottawa , canada , 1988 understand , data laser range finder , copy research purposes 12 3d scanners digitized 3d data cyberware labs , monterey , ca , manufactures 3d color laser digitizer used model parts , complete , human body run service bureau also , digitize models address cyberware labs , inc 8 harris ct , suite 3d monterey , ca phone \( 408 \) 373 1441 , fax \( 408 \) 373 b makes 6d input device \( actually couple models \) senses position \( 3d \) orientation \( 3d \) based electromagnetic field interference equipment also incorporated vpl hardware also called , aerospace ascension technology makes similar 3d input device company , applied sciences \( \? \) , makes 3d input device \( position \) based speed sound triangulation c company specializes digitizing viewpoint ask viewpoint 's free 100 page catalog full ready ship datasets categories cars , anatomy , aircraft , sports , boats , trains , animals others though objects quite expensive , nevertheless interest pictures available objects wireframe , polygon mesh contact viewpoint , 870 west center , orem , utah ph 801 224 2222 fax 801 224 1 800 addresses companies make ascension technology bird , flock birds , big bird 6d trackers p box 527 , burlington , vt phone \( 802 \) 655 , fax \( 802 \) 655 incorporated digitizer 6d trackers p box 560 , hercules dr , vt tel \( 802 \) 655 logitech inc red baron , ultrasonic 6d mouse kaiser dr , ca tel \( 415 \) 795 shooting star technology mechanical 1921 ave burnaby , b c canada tel \( 604 \) 298 fax \( 604 \) 298 spaceball technologies , inc spaceball 6d stationary input device 600 street lowell , , 01854 tel \( 508 \) 970 0330 fax \( 508 \) 970 tel mountain view \( 415 \) 966 systems gold brick powerglove macintosh p box n mit branch post office cambridge , 02139 tel \( 617 \) 969 email applelink apple com vpl research , inc head mounted display glove hand input device vpl research inc 950 tower lane 14th floor foster city , ca tel \( 415 \) 312 0200 fax \( 415 \) 312 engineering flying mouse 6d input device 1137 huntington rd suite 1 south pasadena , ca \( 213 \) 255 0900 13 background imagery textures datafiles first , check ftp places mentioned faq ftp list 24 bit scanning get good 24 bit scanner , like epson 's suggested scsi port speed eric haines suggestion rt news , volume 4 , 3 scan textures wallpapers floor , etc doll house supplies rather cheap way scan patterns n't scaling troubles associated real materials scanning area books textures find houses books magazines carry photographic material , 1 619 536 9999 , sells cd roms various imagery also wide variety stock art available stock art big name stock art houses , , , metro image base , available italy , 's company called belvedere makes books purpose clipping pages inclusion graphics work address edition belvedere co ltd , rome italy , , 19 tel \( 06 \) 360 44 88 , fax \( 06 \) 360 29 60 texture libraries sceptre graphics announced , set 24 bit textures initial shipments 24 bit iff \( amigas \) , soon 24 bit tiff format built tiled surfaces srp 40 volume \( volume 40 images 10 disks \) demo disks 5 available contact sceptre graphics 1600 indiana ave winter park , fl phone \( 407 \) 384 fax \( 407 \) 647 b essence library 65 \( sixty five \) new textures imagine impulse , inc textures fully compatible floating point versions imagine 2 0 , imagine 1 1 , even turbo silver written steve worley info contact essence info apex software publishing 405 el camino real suite 121 menlo park ca 94025 usa texture city \? \? 14 introduction rendering algorithms ray tracing assume general understanding computer graphics \? read books faq contains ray tracing , would suggest introduction ray tracing , andrew glassner \( ed \) , academic press 1989 , isbn 0 12 4 note read book , feel ca n't wrong using book errata list posted comp graphics eric haines \( erich eye com \) 's concise reference also roman , unc chapel hill introduction ray tracing , theoretical foundations computer graphics cad , ed r e , nato , vol f 40 , pp 1039 1060 printed springer verlag , 1988 contains code small , fundamentally complete ray tracer b z buffer \( depth buffer \) good reference procedural elements computer graphics , david f rogers , mcgraw hill , new york , 1985 , pages 265 272 280 284 c others \? \? \? info needed nfotis 15 find geometric data teapot \? displays display column ieee cg jan '87 whole story origin martin newell 's teapot article also bezier patch model pascal program display wireframe model teapot ieee cg sep '87 jim blinn 's column jim blinn 's corner describes another way model teapot bezier curves rotations example used spd packages objects , 're advised get avoid typing data data triangles specific resolution \( around x4 triangles meshing per patch \) spd package provides spline patch descriptions performs specified resolution b space shuttle \? tolis tolis nova stanford edu built list space shuttle datafiles 's summary \( sci space list \) modified version newsgroup model \( \) 406 vertices \( 296 useful , e referred polygon descriptions \) 389 polygons \( 233 3 vertex , 146 4 vertex , 7 5 vertex , 3 6 vertex \) payload doors non existent units unknown simon marshall \( marshall sequent cc hull ac uk \) copy said proprietary information associated newsgroup model , format find gondwana ecr mu oz au , file pub objects shuttle geo hanauma stanford edu , pub graphics comp graphics objects shuttle data model model stored several files , defining portions model greg henderson \( infonode ingr com \) copy mention restriction model 's distribution nasa model file starts header line containing three real numbers , defining offsets used lockheed simulations x offset offset z offset , file consists sequence polygon descriptions vertices polygons \( 407 3 vertex , 2268 4 vertex , 33 5 vertex , 14 6 vertex , 10 7 vertex , 8 8 vertex , 8 12 vertex , 2 13 vertex , 2 15 vertex , 17 16 vertex , 2 17 vertex , 2 18 vertex , 3 19 vertex , 8 24 vertex \) payload doors closed units inches jon \( jon jsc nasa gov \) seems responsible model proprietary info unknown old shuttle model file consists sequence polygon descriptions 104 vertices 452 polygons \( 11 3 vertex , 41 4 vertex \) payload doors open units meters using model star labs , stanford university , years contact \( tolis nova stanford edu \) supervisor scott williams \( scott stanford edu \) want copy 16 image annotation software runs sunview pretty good reads , even image n't normally stored rasterfile format could use screendump make rasterfile b idraw \( part stanford 's interviews distribution \) handle image formats addition macdraw like tool i'm sure exactly ftp idraw 's binary interviews stanford edu c tgif another macdraw like tool handle x11 bitmap \( xbm \) x11 pixmap \( xpm \) formats image formats xbm xpm , get pbmplus toolkit convert things like gif even macintosh formats xpm tgif 's sources available pub directory cs ucla edu \( version 2 12 tgif patchlevel 7 plus \) use facility khoros \( see \) one utility overall system essentially image processing macdraw type graphics using package e might able get pbmplus gives text output bitmaps overlaid top image f requires sun hardware running openwindows 3 's postscript based graphical editor , 's available anonymous ftp internet host eo soest hawaii edu \( 128 171 151 12 \) requires sun c 2 0 two locally developed packages , lxt library \( xlib based toolkit \) small c class library files \( pub ice tar z , pub lxt tar z pub tar z \) available compressed tar format pub ice tar z contains readme gives installation instructions , well extensive man page \( ice 1 \) statically linked compressed executable pub ice sun4 z sparc systems also available ftp software property columbia university may redistributed without permission ice means image composition environment 's imaging tool allows raster images combined wide variety postscript wysiwyg fashion via x11 imaging routines news postscript g use imagemagick image x server pick position text cursor choose font pen color pull menu imagemagick read write many popular image formats imagemagick available export lcs mit edu contrib imagemagick tar z nearest x11 archive 17 scientific visualization stuff x data slice \( \) bundled x11 distribution mit , contrib directory available ftp ncsa uiuc edu 141 142 20 50 \( either source binaries various platforms \) national center supercomputing applications \( ncsa \) tool suite platforms unix workstations \( dec , ibm , sgi , sun \) apple macintosh cray supercomputers availability available source code public domain ftp ftp ncsa uiuc edu contact national center supercomputing applications computing applications building 605 e springfield ave champaign , il 61820 cost free \( zero dollars \) suite includes tools 2d image 3d scene analysis visualization code actively maintained updated spyglass sell commercial versions ncsa tools examples spyglass \( 3d volumetric data analysis package \) platform mac spyglass transform \( 2d data analysis package \) platforms mac , sgi , sun , dec , hp , ibm contact spyglass , inc p box champaign , il \( 217 \) 355 6000 khoros 1 0 patch 5 available via anonymous ftp pprg eece unm edu \( 129 24 24 10 \) cd pub khoros see available huge \( 100 mb \) , good needs unix x11r4 freely copied \( pd \) , complete sources docs extensive heart visual programming khoros components include visual programming language , code generators extending visual language adding new application packages system , interactive user interface editor , interactive image display package , extensive library image signal processing routines , 2d 3d plotting packages see comp soft sys khoros usenet relative faq info contact khoros group room 110 eece dept university new mexico albuquerque , nm email khoros request chama eece unm edu analysis visualization application macintosh operates 1d 2d data arrays import export several different file formats several different plotting options gray scale , color raster , 3d wire frame , 3d surface , contour , vector , line , combinations ffts , filtering , math functions , color look editor , array calculator , etc shareware , available via anonymous ftp sumex aim stanford edu info mac app directory information contact doug norton \( e mail 461 compuserve com \) iris explorer 's application creation system developed silicon graphics provides visualisation analysis functionality computational scientists , engineers scientists explorer gui allows users build custom applications without write , minimal amount , traditonal code also , existing code easily integrated explorer environment explorer currently available sgi cray machines , become available platforms time bundled every new sgi machine , far know see comp graphics explorer comp sys sgi discussion package also two ftp servers related stuff , modules etc ftp ed ac uk 129 215 56 29 lerc nasa gov 139 88 54 33 mirror uk site ape back good days' , could get ape nearly free gone commercial following vendor supplies corporation 929 harrison avenue columbus , ohio tel 1 800 458 \( 614 \) 291 fax \( 614 \) 291 cost 895 \( plus tax \) runtime version site license single user \( time \) , limit number machines cluster 895 includes support maintenance upgrades source code additional user licenses 360 name package become ape iii \( tm \) khoros similar ape philosophy , avs explorer avs see also comp graphics avs platforms convex , cray , dec , evans sutherland , hp , ibm , kubota , set technologies , sgi , stardent , sun , wavetracer availability available unix workstations contact advanced visual systems inc 300 fifth ave waltham , 02154 \( 617 \) 890 4300 telephone \( 617 \) 890 fax avs avs com email advanced visual systems inc cray , hp , ibm , sgi , stardent , sun convex convex advanced visual systems inc cray cray dec dec evans sutherland evans sutherland advanced visual systems inc ibm ibm kubota pacific inc kubota set technologies set technologies wavetracer wavetracer ftp site modules , data sets , info avs ncsc org \( 128 109 178 23 \) wit nutshell 's package avs , explorer , etc seems image processing system generic system \( imho \) major elements visual programming language , automatically exploits inherent parallelism code generator converts graph standalone program iconified libraries present rich set point , filter , io , transform , morphological , segmentation , measurement operations flow library allows graphs employ broadcast , merge , synchronization , conditional , sequencing control strategies wit delivers object oriented , distributed , visual programming environment allows users rapidly design solutions imaging problems users software hardware developments within complete cad like workspace adding operators \( c functions \) , objects \( data structures \) , servers \( specialized hardware \) wit runs sun , hp9000 7xx , sgi supports mv 20 200 hardware allowing run graphs real time free wit demo disk , call , fax , e mail \( poon ee ubc ca \) us stating complete name , address , voice , fax , e mail info desired platform pricing wit sparc , one yr free upgrades , 30 days technical support 5000 us academic institutions discounts available contact logical vision ltd suite 108 3700 way burnaby , b c , canada tel 604 435 fax 604 435 terry arden poon ee ubc ca vis 5d system visually exploring output 5 data sets made weather models platforms sgi iris vgx , gtx , tg , g graphics , sgi crimson indigo \( r4000 , elan graphics suggested \) , irix 4 0 x ibm rs 6000 gl graphics , aix version 3 later stardent gs 1000 gs 2000 \( truecolor display \) case , 32 \( \) mb ram suggested get freely \( thanks nasa support \) via anonymous ftp ftp iris wisc edu \( ftp 144 92 108 63 \) , ftp cd pub ftp ascii ftp get readme ftp bye note find package also wuarchive wustl edu graphics graphics packages directory read section 2 readme file full instructions get install vis 5d contact bill \( vms macc wisc edu \) brian paul \( vms macc wisc edu \) \( ibm \) platforms ibm risc system 6000 , ibm power visualization server \( mesh 32 , 40 mhz \) working \( announced \) sgi , hp , sun contact local ibm rep trial package ask rep contact david kilgore data explorer product marketing \( \) , \( 708 \) 981 wavefront data visualizer , personal visualizer , advanced visualizer platforms sgi , sun , ibm rs6000 , hp , dec availability available platforms wavefront technologies educational programs site licenses available contacts mike wilson \( mike wti com \) wavefront technologies , inc 530 east street santa barbara , ca 93103 805 962 fax 805 963 wavefront europe 21 23 b 9000 , belgium 32 91 25 45 55 fax 32 91 23 44 56 wavefront technologies japan bldg 2 6 1 , ku tokyo 168 japan 81 3 fax 81 3 7353 fast nasa ames packages distributed cosmic least \( fast ask pat nas nasa gov distribution information \) general , codes us citizens \( xgraph contrib tape x11r5 specialty display 64 data sets \( 2d \) ncar national center atmospheric research one original graphics packages runs sun , rs6000 , sgi , vax , cray mp , decstations , contact graphics information ncar scientific computing division p box 3000 boulder , co 80307 3000 \( 303 \) 497 1201 ncar ucar edu cost edu 750 unlimited users gov 750 1 user 1500 5 users 3000 25 users com users multiply gov 2 0 idl environment scientific computing visualization based array oriented language , idl includes 2d 3d graphics , matrix , signal image processing , basic statistics , , mapping , widget based system building gui idl applications \( open look , motif , ms windows \) environments dec \( vms ultrix \) , hp , ibm rs6000 , sgi , sun , microsoft windows \( mac version progress \) cost 1500 , educational quantity discounts available see also comp lang idl \( idl bundle \) contact research systems inc 777 29th street , suite 302 boulder , co 80303 phone 303 786 fax 303 786 e mail info com demo available via ftp call e mail details idl sips lot people using idl package called sips developed university colorado \( boulder \) people working alex goetz might try contacting already idl would willing buy 's thousand dollars \( american \) expect idl free general purpose packages 've heard , besides sips written aviris imagery i'm sure general purpose would contact goetz one people ask another piece software \( pcw \) pc walsh transformations clustering limited image modification \( compute image using selected components \) 've used 70 megabyte aviris images without problems , best speed need external dsp card work without , large images take quite \( 50 70 times long \) process 's freebie want favorite idl \( interactive data language \) research systems , inc idl opinion , much better infinitely easier programming language strong easy pascal like handles number crunching well , also personally , like number crunching idl vax \( mathematica , igor , even excel mac 's hairy \) , bringing nih image imaging part yet encounter situation combination could n't handle , speed ease use \( compared iraf \) incredible way , 's mostly astronomical image processing 've means image enhancement , cleaning bad lines pixels , traditional image processing routines , example , taking graph intensity versus position along line choose mouse , curve fit line \( might like \) idl call research systems , pv wave call precision visuals sips call university colorado boulder understand , get packaged programs research systems , though nfotis contact robert , mit interactive program designed assist engineer investigating fluid dynamics data sets platforms sgi , ibm , hp , sun , x terminals availability currently available platforms educational programs volume discounts available contact intelligent light p box 65 fair lawn , nj \( 201 \) 794 steve kramer \( kramer com \) scian scian primarily intended 3 data interactive environment ability generate animations using frame accurate video recording devices user manual , line help , technical notes help use program cost 0 \( free \) , source code provided via ftp platforms sgi 4d machines ibm rs 6000 gl card z buffer find ftp scri fsu edu 144 174 128 34 pub scian mirror cc monash edu au 130 194 1 101 pub scian scry readme scry distributed image handling system pro image transport compression local wide area networks , image viewing workstations , recording video equipment , storage disk system among workstations , supercomputers works , supercomputers , workstations video animation controllers system commonly used produce video based movie displays images resulting visualization time dependent data , complex 3d data sets , image processing operations clients servers run variety systems provide unix like c run time environments , sockets source available anonymous ftp csam lbl gov 128 3 254 6 pub scry tar z contact bill johnston , \( lbl gov , ucbvax ! csam lbl gov ! johnston \) david robertson \( lbl gov , ucbvax ! csam lbl gov ! davidr \) imaging technologies group ms lawrence berkeley laboratory 1 road berkeley , ca 94720 svlib fvs svlib x windows widget set based osf \( open software foundation \) motif widget set svlib widgets macro widgets comprising lower level motif widgets buttons , scrollbars , menus , drawing areas designed address 2d visualization routines widget library encapsulation specific visualization technique colormap manipulation , image display , contour plotting targetted run unix workstations supporting osf motif currently , color monitors supported since svlib collection widgets developed spirit osf motif user interface widget set , integrates motif widgets programmers using svlib widgets see interface design motif widgets fvs visualization software computational fluid dynamics \( cfd \) simulations fvs designed accept data generated simulations apply various visualization techniques present data graphically fvs accepts three dimensional multi block data recorded ncsa hdf format iti gov sg 192 122 132 130 pub svlib \( scientific visualization \) pu fvs directories contain demo binaries sun4 sgi cost us 200 academic us 300 non academic institutions \( items \) 're getting source licence contact miss lee member technical staff information technology institute national computer board building 71 , park drive singapore 0511 republic singapore tel \( 65 \) fax \( 65 \) email iti gov sg gvlware distribution bob interactive volume renderer sgi raz disk based movie player sgi icol motif color editor army high performance computing research center \( ahpcrc \) developing set tools work large time dependent 2d 3d data sets graphics visualization lab \( gvl \) using tools along side standard packages , sgi explorer utah raster toolkit , render 3d volumes create digital movies couple general purpose programs bundled package called gvlware gvlware , currently consisting bob , raz icol , available via ftp interesting program probably bob , interactive volume renderer sgi raz streams raster images disk sgi screen , enabling movies larger memory played icol color map editor works bob raz source pre built binaries irix 4 0 5 included acquire gvlware , anonymous ftp machine ftp arc umn edu file pub gvl tar z use gvlware mkdir gvl cd gvl gvl tar z tar xvf readme bob features motif interface , sgi gl rendering renders 64 cubed data set 0 1 1 0 seconds vgx alpha compositing maximum value rendering , perspective \( maximum value rendering personal iris \) data must brick bytes , regularly spaced grid animation , , subsampling , stereo raz features motif interface , sgi gl rendering loads files raw disk partition , streams screen \( requires empty disk partition set aside \) script interface available movie sequences stream memory , like ncsa ximage icol features motif interface easy create interpolated color maps key points rgb , hsv yuv color spaces , multiple file formats changes automatically bob raz tested sgi , sun , dec cray systems btw bob brick bytes icol interpolated color raz \? \( name \) please send comments gvlware ahpcrc umn edu software collection supported army research office contract number 89 c university minnesota army high performance computing research center imaging applications platform commercial package medical scientific visualization volume rendering , binary surface rendering , , image manipulation , cine sequencing , geometry text images provides measurement coordinate transform abilities provide hardcopy medical film printers , image database functionality medical \( ct mri etc \) scanners client server based provides object oriented interface runs high performance workstations takes full advantage parallelism available robust , efficient submitted fda approval use medical applications cost 20k oem developer , 10k educational developer run times starting 8900 going based quantity developer packages include two days training two people toronto available isg technologies 6509 airport road mississauga , ontario , canada , 1s7 \( 416 \) 672 2100 e mail rod gilchrist rod isgtec com 18 molecular visualization stuff based list cristy dupont com cristy , asked systems displaying molecular dynamics , md short flex public domain package written michael , scripps research institute , la jolla , ca flex stored compressed , archive \( 3 4mb \) scripps edu 137 131 152 27 , pub flex displays molecular models md trajectories \( macintosh \) searched archie , promising place sumex aim stanford edu \( info mac app , info mac art qt demo \) md display runs sgi machines call terry \( milton u washington edu \) package visualize molecules much uses xview toolkit call duncan dem scripps edu hal physics wayne edu writing visualization code right look md output \( specific format , easy alter subroutine \) pc 's program hooks gks friend access phigs x \( pex \) fortran bindings , would happy share evolving code \( free charge \) right display 65 atoms \( easy change \) , 100 time steps , drawing nearest neighbor bonds 2 defining nn radii works fast 10mhz 286 caesar cs montana edu project molecular visualization master 's thesis , using unix x11 motif generates simple point space filling model part motecc 91 look \( 156 148 7 12 \) , pub motecc motecc info txt information motecc 91 plain ascii format motecc info troff information motecc 91 troff format motecc form troff motecc 91 order form troff format motecc license troff motecc 91 license agreement troff format motecc info ps information motecc 91 postscript format motecc form ps motecc 91 order form postscript format motecc license ps motecc 91 license agreement postscript format i'm working molecular dynamic friend mine developed program display md run dynamically silicon graphics working improve , n't work x , using lib silicon gr much faster x 'll end 'll post news info get ftp \( free software \) v2 0 written david call daven wpi edu xmol x window system program uses osf motif display analysis molecular model data data several common file formats read written current formats include alchemy , ii , gaussian , , , pdb , 's xyz format \( designed simplicity translating formats \) xmol also allows conversion several formats xmol available ftp msc edu read pub xmol readme details insight ii technologies inc scarecrow program published j molecular graphics 10 \( 1992 \) 33 program analyze display , discover , trajectories program package contains also software generation probe surfaces , proton affinity surfaces molecular extended program works silicon graphics machines contact leif laaksonen leif laaksonen csc fi csc fi multi ns nih gov 157 98 8 8 pub multi 3 0 \( multi process molecular modeling suite \) mindtool runs sunview , requires fortran compiler sun 's libraries mindtool tool provided interactive graphic manipulation molecules atoms currently , 10 , 000 atoms may input available via anonymous ftp , chem yale edu , directory pub mindtool \( check archie sites 's far \) would also suggest looking least sgi 's applications directory contains many packages nfotis 19 gis \( geographical information systems software \) grass \( geographic resource analysis support system \) us army construction engineering research lab \( cerl \) popular geographic remote sensing image processing package many may think grass geographic information system rather image processing package , although reported significant image processing capabilities feature descriptions use grass 's public domain obtained internet free grass runs unix written c source code obtained anonymous ftp office grass integration compile source code machine , using scripts provided grass would recommend grass someone already workstation limited budget grass user friendly , compared macintosh software first review overview documentation indicates looks useful pixel functions packages plus good general purpose image enhancement routines \( fft \) kelly maurice vexcel corp boulder , co primary user grass gentleman used grass software developed multi spectral \( 238 bands \? \? \) volumetric rendering , full color , suns really effective interface vexcel corp currently contract map part venus convert magellan radar data contour maps call \( 303 \) 444 email care greg vexcel com 192 92 90 68 host configuration requirements willing run ux could install grass macintosh significant image analysis import capabilities satellite data grass public domain , run high end pc unix raster based , image processing capability , display vector data \( analysis must done raster environment \) used grass v 3 sun workstation found easy use best , course , data well represented raster \( grid cell \) form availability cerl 's office grass integration \( ogi \) maintains ftp server moon cecer army mil \( 129 229 20 254 \) mail regarding site addressed grass ftp admin moon cecer army mil location new canonical source grass software , well bug fixes , contributed sources , documentation , files ftp server also supports dynamic compression tar archiving files feature attraction server john grass tutorial manual still beta test stage , john requests people acquire willing review mail comments corrections ogi currently maintaining document , correspondence directed tang uark edu support listserv mailing lists list amber cecer army mil \( grass users application level questions , support concerns , miscellaneous questions , etc \) send subscribe commands request amber cecer army mil list amber cecer army mil \( grass programmers system level questions tips , tricks , techniques design implementation grass applications \) send subscribe commands request amber cecer army mil lists maintained office grass integration \( subset army corps engineers construction engineering research lab champaign , il \) ogi providing lists service community ogi cerl employees participate lists , make claim content veracity messages pass list questions , problems , comments , send e mail lists owner amber cecer army mil human respond microstation imager intergraph \( based huntsville alabama \) sells wide range gis software hardware microstation base graphics package imager sits top imager basically image processing package heavy gis remote sensing flavor feature description basic geometry manipulations flip , mirror , rotate , generalized affine rectification affine , 2nd , 3rd , 4th 5th order models well model \( warp image vector map another image \) rgb ihs ihs rgb conversion principal component analysis classification k means fourier forward , filtering reverse filters high pass , low pass , edge enhancing , median , generic complex histogram contrast control layer controller manages 64 images time user extract single bands 3 band image create color images combining various individual bands , etc package designed remote sensing application \( handle large images \) kinds software available gis applications host configuration requirements runs intergraph workstations \( unix machine similar sun \) though rumors \( always rumors \) software would ported pc possibly sun environment pci company called pci , inc , richmond hill , ontario , canada , makes array software utilities processing , manipulation , use remote sensing data eight ten different industry standard formats , , landsat , couple others whose titles forget software available versions ms dos , unix workstations \( among hp , sun , ibm \) , vms , quite possibly platforms use vms version pci software consists several classes groups packages utilities , grouped function operating common pci database disk file tape package set utility programs read various remote sensing industry tape formats , write formats , pci database file package use know much packages display data pci database one another several pci supported third party color displays , output numeric bitmap representation image data attached printer , e g epson type dot matrix graphics printer might interested mathematical operations package gram fourier analysis , equalization , user specified operations \( e g multiply channel 1 3 , add channel 2 , store channel 5 \) , god knows else 's lot n't n't use , ca n't say much buy packages particular application interest calls utility controlled one eight parameters , read common parameter file must \( vms anyway \) default directory utilities share parameters use parameter different purpose , get bit confusing setting series operations standard pci environment contains scripting language similar ibm pc basic , allows automate process setting parameters common , complicated , lengthy difficult series utility executions \( vms also invoke utilities independently dcl command procedure \) 's also optional programming library allows write compiled language programs interface \( read write \) pci data structures \( database file , parameter file \) pci software designed specifically remote sensing images , requires level operator expertise , reach level handle r images , figure ways handle things well instance , tape package offers utility reading multi band \( adobe photoshop macintosh calls raw \) data tape , number different interleave orders turns ideal manipulating graphic arts industry 's format , would probably \( n't tried \) handle targa , , however , know screw nth degree start 's worth noting pci database file designed contain raster \( image \) data , vectors \( map information entered via digitizing table \) , land use , manner information \( observe remote sensing image tape often contains manner information spectral bands , latitude , longitude , time , date , etc original satellite pass go pci database \) believe workstations built display used vax systems workstations pci supports couple specific third party display systems \( name gould seems come mind \) one personal workarounds display program would display directly pci database file q \( q bus 24 bit directcolor \) display subsystem pci software could overkill case seems designed high end applications users , e mac pc largely n't suffice \( although know gap getting smaller time \) 's probably coincidence pci located canada , country lot land resource management via remote sensing believe canadian government uses pci software work areas spam \( spectral analysis manager \) back 1985 jpl developed something called spam \( spectral analysis manager \) got fair amount use time designed airborne imaging spectrometer imagery \( byte data , 256 pixels across 512 lines 256 bands \) modified version since developed aviris \( airborne visual infrared imaging spectrometer \) uses much larger images spam none things \( rectification , classification , pc ihs transformations , filtering , contrast enhancement , overlays \) actually , limited filtering contrast enhancement \( stretching \) spam aimed spectral identification clustering original spam uses x sunview display aviris version may require vicar , executive based tae , may also require frame buffer refer people 're interested pcw requires x display map ii among mac gis systems , map ii distributed john wiley clrview clrview 3 dimensional visualization program designed exploit real time capabilities silicon graphics iris computers program designed provide core set tools aid visualization information cad gis sources supports integration many common data sources dxf , tin , dem , , arc info among others clrview obtained explorer dgp utoronto ca \( 128 100 1 129 \) directory pub sgi clrview contact rodney head design applications centre landscape research university toronto tel \( 416 \) 978 email rodney dgp utoronto ca end resource listing nick \( nikolaos \) fotis national technical univ athens , greece home 16 esperidon st , internet nfotis theseas ntua gr halandri , gr 152 32 uucp mcsun ! ariadne ! theseas ! nfotis athens , greece fax \( 30 1 \) 77 84 578
dts cis ufl edu \( dave small \) subject wanted references parallel algorithms organization r us lines 16 distribution world nntp posting host cis ufl edu keywords parallel algorithms , , adaptive subdivision , meshing , finite element analysis , radiosity , distributed processing hi , i'm looking references parallel algorithms adaptive subdivision adaptive meshing finite element meshing analysis radiosity help greatly appreciated e mail replies dave small dts cis ufl edu
gorgen ann arbor applicon slb com \( david gorgen \) subject need help z buffering lines areas together organization applicon , inc ann arbor , mi \( usa \) keywords z buffer , roundoff , lines , areas lines 84 i'm asking help sticky problem involving unreasonably low apparent precision z buffering , 've encountered 2 different pex implementations ca n't find discussion problem resources lay hands \( e g comp windows x pex faq , gaskins 's pexlib programming manual , vendors' documentation \) i'm posting article comp graphics , virtually article test program demonstrating problem comp windows x pex problem hard describe without pictures , hence article run pexlib 5 x programs interested , encourage build run test program comp windows x pex see effect play approach dealing \( depends utility code gaskins book instructions fetching via anonymous ftp given \) problem solved eliminate minimize stitching artifacts resulting use z buffering polylines coplanar filled areas interpolated z values along line differ slightly , due roundoff error , interpolated z values across area , even endpoints line vertices area , 's whether z buffer allow line pixels area pixels displayed visually , result tends dashed line effect even though line supposed solid using pexlib api , approach solution use two slightly different pex view mapping transforms , two view table entries , one areas one lines pex structures immediate mode output must organized one view table index always effect areas , always effect lines result slight shift npc z coordinates lines , attempt bias situations favor lines shift effected moving front back clipping planes used pexlib view table entry lines hair backwards \( e smaller z coordinates \) , compared positions view table entry used areas means point transformed npc , z value slightly bigger comes line comes area , thus accomplishing desired bias would expect z roundoff errors cause problem amount units , entire dynamic range z buffer , typically 0 65535 \( e 16 24 bit z buffers \) therefore , seems tiny fraction range z front back clip planes ought suffice reliably fix stitching fact , experience shows shift much 0 003 0 006 range \( empirically , 's worst npc z component slope surface high , e appears less edge viewer \) 's 8 9 bits z buffer dependable meaning ! amount great one problem replaced another sometimes polylines show areas supposed lie behind 've observed problem hewlett packard digital workstation pex servers , approximately degree test program demonstrates problem mit pexlib 5 x implementation version known compile run hp ux system pex 5 1 open questions \( 1 \) happen \? configuring pex view table wrongly \? systematic difference z interpolation lines opposed areas \( e g pixel centers versus corners \) could corrected \? pex implementors z precision \? something else \? \( 2 \) \? fix use view table allow better precision z buffered \? another approach take remove stitching artifacts \? luck \? help would immensely appreciated ! dave gorgen internet gorgen ann arbor applicon slb com applicon inc gorgen slb com ann arbor , michigan \( usa \) uucp ! uunet ! ! ! gorgen
cwis isu edu \( terry \) subject animation organization idaho state university , pocatello lines 14 nntp posting host cwis isu edu couple raytracing questions know i'm using povray 1 0 \( ms dos unix \) i'm generating targa files varying size 1 \) ok , view wonderful pictures screen 's best way get paper \? would possible take 's make actual picture paper \? 2 \) thinking making small animation bit different raytraced frames bad idea \? tricks \? 3 \) would get sequence targa files made animation could put videotape \? cheap way \?
rtaraz bigwpi wpi edu \( ramin taraz \) subject need gif iff file format organization worcester polytechnic institute lines 8 distribution world nntp posting host bigwpi wpi edu could somebody please email info either gif iff file formats , get info \? thanx rtaraz wpi wpi edu
iscsvax uni edu subject archiving gif organization university northern iowa lines 9 's best way archive gif 's \? zip shrink 1 compression programs except stacker heard good gif 's thanx ps please e mail , n't get far news usually
subject povray tga rle craig humphrey comp vuw ac nz \( craig andrew humphrey \) reply chumphre comp vuw ac nz distribution world organization victoria university wellington new zealand nntp posting host depot comp vuw ac nz lines 33 article pageboy cs utexas edu , jhpark cs utexas edu \( park \) writes hello , problem converting tga file \( generated povray \) rle file convert , get warning message use xloadimage getx11 , something wrong edited know need install ppmtorle , spend time install even want generate rgb povray convert rle , possible \( rgb rle works , mess directory many files , needs 2 steps finally convert rle file say cat \) body experience problems \? well starters , use rle files \? might specific program needs , ok , tend convert straight jpeg format , thus 2 4meg 24bit targa file becomes less 24bit jpeg latest versions xv \( 2 2 1 \? \) xloadimage \( 3 03 \) handle jpeg files best way convert jpeg c djpeg suit even 90 quality \( ca n't see difference \) jpeg way smaller anything else even 8bit gif ! craig n't , nobody saw , ca n't prove anything craig humphrey actrix gen nz ccc c ccc c chumphre comp vuw ac nz
lioness maple circa ufl edu subject kubota kenai denali specs organization center instructional research computing activities lines 118 reply lioness ufcc ufl edu nntp posting host maple circa ufl edu okay , got enough replies kubota kenai denali systems post summary capabilities n't actually used one seen one , take specs grain salt 'd like see independent review one , say , sgi indigo extreme something basically , kenai workstations dec alpha axp based workstations run osf 1 \( dec 's \) likely run windows nt future binary compatible digital 's osf 1 alpha axp implementation denali graphics subsystem , upgradable field simply adding transformation engines two main kenai machines 3400 imaging 3d graphics workstation 3500 imaging 3d graphics workstation 3400 3500 cpu dec alpha axp dec alpha axp 150mhz chip cache 8k 8k 8k 8k onboard cache 512k 512k word size 64 bit 64 bit memory \( initial \) 32 128mb 32 memory \( future \) 111 126 specint92 75 84 specfp92 112 128 graphics transform modules 1 6 1 6 frame buffer modules 5 , 10 , 20 5 , 10 , 20 frame buffer 1280x1024x24bit 1280x1024x24bit double buffered double buffered z buffer 24 bit 24 bit alpha 8 bit 8 bit stereo support yes yes machines double buffer stereo output per window auxiliary video output rs 170a , ntsc , pal storage internal fixed 2 3 5 4 3 5 internal removable 1 5 25 2 5 25 max capacity 9 11 6 gb io 100mb sec , scsi 2 , ethernet , application programming interfaces libraries xlib , motif , mit pexlib , dec pexlib dec phigs , gl okay , real stuff kenai stations work graphics architecture known denali denali comes three models , e , p , v use risc processor 150mhz capabilities follows e p v 2d vectors 800 200k 2000 4000 3d vectors 1 350 1100 1800 3d vectors 2 300 1000 1600 3d vectors 3 300 500k 800 1300 3d triangles , 4 200 500k 600 1000 3d triangles , 5 100 200k 300 500 600k 1 10 pixel , flat shaded , connected 2 10 pixel , shaded , connected 3 10 pixel , 2 pixel wide , anti aliased , connected 4 50 pixel , shaded , z buffered , strip 5 50 pixel , texture mapped , , point sampled image processing cine loop 8 bit 15 37 58 mp 60 68 mp cine loop 16 bit 14 mp 25 mp 38 mp cine loop 24 bit 12 21 mp 21 mp 21 mp contrast stretching 1 14 mp 25 mp 20 mp zoom 6 mp 11 mp 20 mp 2 6 11 1 lookup table 12 , 16 bit 8 2 interpolation , 8 bit configurations frame buffer modules 5 10 20 transform engine mod 1 3 3 5 5 6 see , pretty powerful workstations , best part pricing would recommend call kubota information number 408 727 8100 i'm sure 'll send information may want oh , prices low end kenai 3400 , e series w 1 tem 5 fbm 27 , 795 dollars u kenai 3500 , e series w 1 tem 5 fbm 45 , 345 dollars u high end kenai 3400 , v series w 6 tem 20 fbm 61 , 795 dollars u kenai 3500 , v series w 6 tem 20 fbm 79 , 345 dollars u someone could post relative comparision indigo extreme something would appreciate hope helps someone , brian ps affiliated kubota way hell , thought made something \)
es \( juan carlos \) subject autocad graphics converter reply es organization x newsreader tin 1 1 pl4 lines 8 could anybody tell exists program convert autocad graphics another format \( gif , tiff , bmp , pcx \) get \? thanks advance j c madrid \( spain \)
csd4 csd uwm edu \( scott r violet \) subject looking code brake image sub bands organization computing services division , university wisconsin milwaukee lines 11 distribution usa nntp posting host 129 89 7 4 originator csd4 csd uwm edu hi , working project need brake image sub bands work since never done anything like , n't even understand concept sub bands , wondering software would allow hints \? thanks , scott violet \( csd4 csd uwm edu \)
subject virtual reality x cheap ! ironbark \( tim potter \) distribution inet organization university college northern victoria \( \) nntp posting host ironbark ucnv edu au x newsreader tin 1 1 pl3 lines 27 peter trl oz au \( peter k campbell \) writes ridout bink plk af mil \( brian ridout \) writes article 1993apr15 mfltd co uk , sts mfltd co uk \( steve sherwood \( x5543 \) \) writes anyone got multiverse work \? extn 5543 , sts mfltd co uk , ! uunet ! mfocus ! sts 've tried compiling several sparcstations gcc 2 22 fixing bugs \( 3 missing constant definitions plus couple things \) got compile link , starting client server get black window sometimes client core dumps , sometimes server , sometimes get broken pipe , sometimes sits nothing although occassionally get cursor become cross hair dog fight , 's 've sent word author plus fix last week , reply yet peter k campbell p campbell trl oz au 've discovered bug libraries parser parser c function generating segmentation fault appears corrupted somehow return random colours instead everything worked great \( except colour problems \) know thing wrong colour table somehow gets couple placed name colours compared crashes n't found problem yet maybe someone else adrian turner university college northern victoria turner ironbark ucnv edu au
scott vos stratus com subject looking toontown summary know organization stratus computer , marlboro lines 10 nntp posting host m72 eng stratus com noticed post comp graphics know person name wondering used live paxton mass , friend would like say hi sorry n't think sr
aron taos ced berkeley edu \( aron bonar \) subject gif targa organization university california , berkeley lines 9 nntp posting host taos ced berkeley edu article 1993apr28 edu pl , edu pl \( krzysztof \) writes hello , subject says need gif targa converter , could make fli krzysztof dta make fli gifs well n't need converter also get latest version dta wuarchive wustl edu pub msdos uploads
rsc altair csustan edu \( steve cunningham \) subject acm siggraph registration problem summary 's fixed organization csu lines 29 zyda cs nps navy mil \( michael zyda \) notes word warning registering siggraph '93 received registration form back mail envelope marked return sender moved left address closed po box address used register siggraph '93 one printed registration form acm siggraph '93 po box , chicago , il 5316 printed envelope best printing , honest evidently siggraph '93 skipped town moved \? ended faxing registration 312 321 hope number real ! michael zyda problem called people handle box problem happened time ago caught almost instantly going address fixed see trouble get n't , mike \? , siggraph 93 skipped town 're preparing best siggraph conference yet ! steve cunningham
gaetan lord , ecole polytechnique de montreal music mus polymtl ca subject hpgl viewer utilities lines 20 organization ecole polytechnique de montreal hi would like know software , pd , could produce x11 output hpgl file rs 6000 kind software could produce hardcopy postscript thank gaetan lord voice \( 514 \) 340 ! fax \( 514 \) 340 ecole polytechnique de montreal p box station montreal , quebec canada future time travel
powlesla acs ucalgary ca \( jim powlesland \) subject illustrator autotrace poorly \? organization university calgary , alberta lines 12 nntp posting host acs ucalgary ca 've pretty good success line art adobe streamline 2 0 key controlling excessive points , etc take time test conversions using various tolerance settings jim powlesland internet powlesla acs ucalgary ca academic computing services voice \( 403 \) 220 university calgary message \( 403 \) 220 6201 calgary , alberta canada t2n 1n4 fax \( 403 \) 282 9199
rigby echo unr edu \( wayne rigby \) subject cross , sobel roberts filters \? organization university nevada , reno department computer science lines 20 article 1993apr28 waikato ac nz waikato ac nz writes saw imaging program time ago amiga cross , sobel roberts filters edge detection anybody direct algorithms ok , never heard cross filters , roberts , sobel filters standard spatial masks edge detection filtering good job detecting edges , good reference sorts general digital image processing book digital image processing rafael c gonzalez richard e woods addison wesley publishing co 1992 isbn 0 201 6 've used source filters many things grad project dificult worst part loading images tiff gif iff ilbm whatever ! \) wayne rigby rigby cs unr edu
subject source code help ip packages \( please \) ! ironbark ucnv edu au \( vance \) distribution world organization dept computing , ucnv , , australia nntp posting host ironbark ucnv edu au lines 44 greetings general call information regarding image processing looking material related field , also trying get hands easy use packages related field particular source code general use packages already several texts subject , would appreciate input people knowledgable field i'm mathematically literate \( ie n't degree mathematics \) , material suggested would prefer mathematically intensive best book found subject moment practical digital image processing lewis isbn 0 13 2 published ellis \( c \) 1990 likewise trying get fair sample programs demonstrate image processing techniques far , unix 2 1' ibm pc , various related c code help describe topics like , , dithering , image enhancement via convolution etc anyone could kindly supply public domain software pertinent area , better still could tell likely find aarnet \( internet \) would prefer source code c turbo pascal includes image processing code algorithms , readily alter manipulate purposes demonstration would helpful information contribute post graduate studies , liberally used paper , seminar subject thanks advance vance diploma advanced computing thinking dangerous , subversive , leads astray ironbark ucnv edu au redgum ucnv edu au
lee hobbes cs umass edu \( peter lee \) subject quicktime performance \( rumours 3do \? \? \? \) 1993apr16 212441 34125 rchland ibm com 1993apr26 waikato ac nz reply lee cs umass edu organization software development lab , umass , amherst lines 108 reply ldo waikato ac nz 's message 26 apr 93 05 09 15 gmt article 1993apr26 waikato ac nz ldo waikato ac nz \( lawrence d'oliveiro , waikato university \) writes path dime ! cs umass edu ! nic umass edu ! noc near net ! howland reston ans net ! usc ! elroy jpl nasa gov ! decwrl ! waikato ac nz ! ldo ldo waikato ac nz \( lawrence d'oliveiro , waikato university \) newsgroups comp multimedia , comp graphics date 26 apr 93 05 09 15 gmt references 1993mar31 aragorn unibe ch 1993apr16 212441 34125 rchland ibm com organization university waikato , hamilton , new zealand lines 67 xref dime comp multimedia comp graphics ok , discussion observed playback speeds quicktime , effects scaling , thought 'd tests first , felt original speed test perhaps less realistic movie using 18 frames \( version first movie created compact video compressor \) decided something little longer would give closer real world results \( better worse \) pulled copy 2001 space odyssey recorded tv back fifteen minutes movie , 's sequence earth shuttle approaching space station specifically , digitized portion 30 seconds' duration , zooming rotating space station figured would give reasonable amount movement frames increase differences frames , digitized 5 frames per second , give total 171 frames captured raw footage resolution 384 288 pixels spigot card centris 650 \( quarter size resolution pal source \) imported premiere put compact video compressor , keeping 5 fps frame rate created two versions movie one scaled 320 240 resolution , 160 120 resolution used default 2 00 quality setting premiere 2 0 1 , specified key frame every ten frames ran 320 240 movie raw speed test program used results 'd reporting earlier result playback rate 45 frames per second 's right , getting much higher result first short test movie fun , copied 320 240 movie external hard disk \( quantum \) , ran time playback rate 35 frames per second obviously internal hard disk \( also quantum \) significant contributor speed playback modified speed test program allow specification optional scaling factors , tried playing back 160 120 movie scaled 320 240 size time playback speed 60 fps clearly , poster observed poor performance scaled playback seeing quicktime 1 0 action , 1 5 'd try tests quicktime 1 0 , n't think 's entirely compatible centris system 7 1 , playback rate 160 120 movie 100 fps thing tried saving versions 320 240 movie preferred playback rates greater 1 0 , seeing well played within \( ie quicktime 's normal synchronized playback \) preferred rate 9 0 \( 45 fps \) n't work well playback jerky compare raw speed test , achieved 45 fps ease ca n't believe quicktime 's synchronization code would add much overhead think slowdown coming mac system 's task switching preferred rate 7 0 \( 35 fps \) seemed work fine could n't see evidence stutter 8 0 \( 40 fps \) think could see slight stutter , four key frames every second , hard tell guess could try recreating movies longer interval key frames , make stutter noticeable course , also improve compression slightly , speed playback performance even lawrence d'oliveiro fone 64 7 856 2889 computer services dept fax 64 7 838 4066 university waikato electric mail ldo waikato ac nz hamilton , new zealand 37 47' 26 , 175 19' 7 e , gmt 12 00 i'm afraid missed start thread , three factors significantly affect quicktime 's playback speed may want take account \( 1 \) playback bit depth \( things fastest play movie back bit depth compressed , usually 8 16 bit , depths \( course \) possible \) \( 2 \) type scaling \( qt optimized double size scaling , scaling factors hit much harder \) \( 3 \) playback window position \( limits window placement choices pixel boundaries default , i'm sure premiere \) combination radically alter playback performance image size , course , another giving movie player lots ram also make real difference forgive mentioned earlier thread peter lee peter e lee , software conductor international , inc lee cs umass edu \( 413 \) 256 \( h \) \( 413 \) 549 \( w \) beauty 24 bits deep , plus eight bits alpha channel
graeme labtam labtam oz au \( graeme gill \) subject help need 24 bits viewer keywords 24 bit organization labtam australia pty ltd , melbourne , australia lines 10 article seti inria fr , deniaud cartoon inria fr \( gilles deniaud \) writes hi , i'm looking program able display 24 bits images using sun sparc equipped parallax graphics board running x11 xli , xloadimage imagemagick export lcs mit edu 18 24 0 12 contrib graeme gill
graeme labtam labtam oz au \( graeme gill \) subject povray tga rle organization labtam australia pty ltd , melbourne , australia lines 20 article pageboy cs utexas edu , jhpark cs utexas edu \( park \) writes hello , problem converting tga file \( generated povray \) rle file convert , get warning message use xloadimage getx11 , something wrong error messages , rle data tga xloadimage rle rle 0x0 24 bit rle image map \( dither 8 bits \) , gamma 1 00 dithering image done building ximage done xloadimage x error \( integer parameter range operation \) 0x0 xloadimage x error badwindow \( invalid window parameter \) happens x server run memory need memory need quit un neccessary running clients graeme gill
sherman unx sas com \( chris sherman \) subject povray tga rle nntp posting host unx sas com organization sas institute inc lines 77 gec st james comp vuw ac nz craig humphrey comp vuw ac nz \( craig andrew humphrey \) writes article pageboy cs utexas edu , jhpark cs utexas edu \( park \) writes hello , problem converting tga file \( generated povray \) rle file convert , get warning message use xloadimage getx11 , something wrong edited know need install ppmtorle , spend time install even want generate rgb povray convert rle , possible \( rgb rle works , mess directory many files , needs 2 steps finally convert rle file say cat \) body experience problems \? well starters , use rle files \? exactly n't want mess tga rle wrote following script need standard set pbm utilities script pov jpg converter run like 1280 1024 fred pov need modify path 's script reflect put povray include files problem disk space , use named pipes instead temporary files hope find useful ! bin sh lt 3 echo usage 0 width height pov options exit fi width 1 height 2 3 shift 3 `echo sed e \( \) pov 1 ` cd afs rnd sas com u sherman pov build povray l afs rnd sas com u sherman pov include tmp data w width h height fr echo width height tmp data grn tmp green width height tmp data red tmp red width height tmp data tmp blue tmp red tmp green tmp blue cjpeg jpg rm tmp red tmp green tmp blue tmp data grn tmp data red tmp data echo wrote output jpg chris sherman sherman unx sas com
wier merlin etsu edu \( bob wier \) subject adobe photoshop mailing list organization east texas state university lines 16 've done bit looking , hav n't able come mailing list newsgroup users adobe photoshop assuming 've missed , 'll go ahead see enough interest start mailing list \( alt newsgroup \) drop note might interested subscribing thanks ! bob wier \( grateful dead \) insert usual disclaimers bob wier , east texas state u , commerce , texas historic image processing project wier merlin etsu edu \( watch address change \)
reg triumf ca \( , peter \) subject morphing organization triumf tri university meson facility lines 14 distribution world nntp posting host reg triumf ca news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article news duke edu , seth acpub duke edu \( seth wandersman \) writes keywords looking morphing programs dec 's pc 's looked program called dmorph using archie could find found call grayscale images anyone know look \? try searching dmorf , think 's located wuarchive wustl edu mirror directory 've used , pretty good ! pete email reg triumf ca
eric vitiello tfd coplex com \( eric vitiello \) subject 3ds te distribution world organization ky pc user 's group louisville , ky 502 423 reply eric vitiello tfd coplex com \( eric vitiello \) lines 20 rych festival ed ac uk \( r hawkes \) rh 've noticed save model \( mapping planes rh positioned carefully \) 3ds file reload restarting rh 3ds , given default position orientation save rh prj file positions orientation preserved anyone rh know information stored 3ds file \? nothing prj \( project \) format saves settings , right last render file 's name rh 'd like able read texture rule information , anyone rh format prj file \? sorry n't anything format r c v r deluxe 386 1 25 stupid line noise ! !
walter uni koblenz de \( walter \) subject parametric variational design organization university koblenz , germany lines 149 nntp posting host wolf uni koblenz de reply patel enuxha eas asu edu 's message wed , 28 apr 1993 18 15 40 gmt initial references best regards walter inproceedings et al 90 , author robert young , title integrating parametric geometry , features , variational modeling conceptual design , booktitle international conference design theory methodology , year 1990 , editor j r , pages 1 9 , organization american society mechanical engineers \( \) , , , , note proceedings inproceedings kimura 90 , author kimura , title constraint modeling system variational geometry , booktitle geometric modeling product engineering , year 1990 , editor michael j j u turner k , pages 221 233 , organization , publisher science publishers b v \( north holland \) , amsterdam , netherlands , , , note selected expanded papers form wg 5 2 nsf working conference geometric modeling , , ny , u , 18 22 september 1988 inproceedings chung et al 88 , author jack c h chung joseph w robert l cook , title implementation issues variational geometry constraint management , booktitle third international conference cad cam , robotics factories future \( cars \) , year 1988 , , , , , address detroit , michigan , usa , month august 14 17 , , note proceedings , probably springer verlag , berlin heidelberg , 1989 article kimura et al 86 , author kimura suzuki , title variational product design constraint propagation satisfaction product modelling , journal annals , year 1986 , volume 35 , number 1 , pages 75 78 , , note \( probably \) international institution production engineering research article kimura et al 87 , author f kimura h suzuki h sato , title variational geometry based logical constraints applications product modelling , journal annals , year 1987 , volume 36 , number 1 , pages 65 68 , inproceedings chung 89 , author jack c h chung martin , title comparison variational parametric design , booktitle '89 , year 1989 , , pages 5 27 5 44 , , , address detroit , michigan , usa , month october 30 november 2 , , note conference proceedings article et al 92 , author robert young , title integrating parametric geometry , features , variational modeling conceptual design , journal international journal systems automation research applications \( sara \) , year 1992 , volume 2 , , pages 17 36 , , article 90 , author , title parametric interactive geometric modeller mechanical design , journal cad , computer aided design , year 1990 , volume 22 , number 10 , pages 633 644 , month december , note ltd inproceedings et al , author borut v z alik , title parametric design using constraint description graph , booktitle cad '92 , zur cad systeme , year 1992 , editor frank helmut , pages 329 344 , , publisher informatik , springer verlag , berlin heidelberg , , month 14 15 mai , note gi , berlin inproceedings 90 , author , title parametric engineering design using constraint based reasoning , booktitle aaai 90 , eighth national conference artificial intelligence , year 1990 , , pages 505 510 , organization american association artificial intelligence , publisher proceedings , volume one , aaai press , menlo park , ca , u , address boston , , month july 29 august 3 , ,
rigby echo unr edu \( wayne rigby \) subject need gif iff file format organization university nevada , reno department computer science lines 22 article bigboote wpi edu rtaraz bigwpi wpi edu \( ramin taraz \) writes could somebody please email info either gif iff file formats , get info \? well , gif stands graphics interchange format put forth compuserve back 1987 \( \? \) create format could read displayed system gif limited 8 bit color built compression scheme \( lzw \? \) iff really graphics format , rather standard way package images , sounds , animations , text , whatever one file iff created electronic arts , believe \( could wrong \) , amiga quickly adopted pretty much standard file format amiga common image format iff package ilbm \( interleaved bitmap \? \) many others exist format supports 24 bit color images information many available via anonymous ftp zamenhof cs rice edu directory pub graphics formats \( taken faq news group \) \) wayne rigby rigby cs unr edu
utas edu au \( byron john \) subject pov 286 \? \? \? \? keywords pov organization university tasmania lines 21 sorry faq get 286 \( 16 bit \) version pov ray \? help would greatly appreciated need 286 version since turbo pascal wo n't let run 32 bit program within program info would also great help thanks , byron utas edu au b cam utas edu au byron e mail computing services
rmalayte grumpy helios nd edu \( ryan malayter \) subject geosphere image organization university notre dame , notre dame lines 29 article 31 alt graphics newsgroups alt graphics path news nd edu ! moliere ! rmalayte rmalayte moliere helios nd edu \( ryan malayter \) subject geosphere images via ftp \? message id 1993apr26 news nd edu sender news news nd edu \( usenet news system \) organization university notre dame , notre dame date mon , 26 apr 1993 21 36 48 gmt anyone know digitized version geosphere image available via ftp \? n't know , composite photograph entire earth , removed think 's really cool created government funds sattelites research project , would assume 's public domain thanks info , ryan college men get smashed break something , college women get smashed get broken robin wilson president , ryan p malayter chico state university 332 stanford hall notre dame , 46556 n dept physics comp sci malayter nd edu
9130037 golum riv csu edu au \( chan yin mei \) subject help ! colour display restriction limitation originator 9130037 golum riv csu edu au organization charles sturt university riverina , wagga wagga , nsw , australia lines 29 hi netters , i'm project image analysis firstly , find restrictions limitations colour display various kind workstations , decstation , hp , amiga , apollo secondly , read graphic texts image displayed 24 bites \( please point got wrong \) , images deal displayed 16 bites software using currently , problems display x windows future \? thinking implement gui x windows project person help solve problem query \? , give advice suggestion find please send e mail thanks advance christine chan address 9130037 golum riv csu edu au
sneakers \( ken yee \) subject tiff anything \? ! lines 11 article 1993apr21 yang earlham edu joshuaf yang earlham edu writes tiff anything programs ibm \? scanner works tiff , view cshow 8 1 , programs read errors basic tiff jpeg , gif , pcx , bmp , etc \? try winjpeg oak oakland edu pub msdos windows3 zip tiff support graphics workshop also converts formats ken
pat nick csh rit edu \( pat \( jedi training \) \) subject 3 widget wish list \? keywords 3 widget , manipulation , feedback , user interface design system nntp posting host nick csh rit edu organization computer science house rit lines 16 'd like see generic n dimensional widget set realize , would n't whole shitload people 'd want 3 , stop \? need widget n showing different 3 2 slices stuff alter , pat pat csh rit edu ritvax rit edu spectrum xerox com objects , invisible , non physical , otherwise non fuck cat !
bultman dgw rws nl \( g w bultman \) subject rgb hls hsv conversion routines wanted organization utexas mail news gateway lines 19 nntp posting host cs utexas edu hi , i'm looking rgb \( cube \) hls \( double \) hsv \( cylinder \) conversion routines rgb hsv , miss hls rgb hsv please e mail directly , get newsgroup site help wil greatly appreciated gert gert bultman bultman dgw rws nl phone \( 31 \) 70 snail , , mail , 2500 ex hague , netherlands \( please mark personal mail \)
rych festival ed ac uk \( r hawkes \) subject 3ds texture rules go \? lines 34 eric vitiello tfd coplex com \( eric vitiello \) writes rych festival ed ac uk \( r hawkes \) rh 've noticed save model \( mapping planes rh positioned carefully \) 3ds file reload restarting rh 3ds , given default position orientation save rh prj file positions orientation preserved anyone rh know information stored 3ds file \? nothing prj \( project \) format saves settings , right last render file 's name rh 'd like able read texture rule information , anyone rh format prj file \? sorry n't anything format well , feet first reverse engineered prj file much needed extracted mapping icon information 3d studio useless needs need mapping icon per applied texture want use special purpose graphics computer rendering 3ds models requires texture rule plane specified , e position orientation mapping rule since one mapping icon used 3ds apply textures objects faces , renders \( pun intended \) 3ds totally unsuitable needs anyone got contact alias upfront good modeller pc \? must able specify texture rules \( one per texture \) must saved file read n't found info alias copy faq rych
peng physik uni ulm de \( peng \) subject sw convert plot ascii file keywords plot ascii organization uni ulm physik lines 2 looking software reads plot pcx format converts x , coordinate
situnaya ibm3090 bham ac uk subject best ftp viewer please organization university birmingham , united kingdom lines 5 nntp posting host ibm3090 bham ac uk could someone please tell best viewer available msdos running 486 33mhz svga monitor need look gifs mainly would advantageous ran windows thanks
htsa aha nl \( remco \) subject rgb hvs , back organization van amsterdam , netherlands , e e c dept lines 9 little question need convert rgb coded \( red green blue \) colors hvs coded \( hue value \) colors anyone know formulas use \? thanks ! r w htsa aha nl
beck irzr17 inf tu dresden de \( andre beck \) subject wanted 24 bit viewer organization dept computer science , tu dresden , germany lines 22 distribution world reply andre beck irs inf tu dresden de nntp posting host irzr17 inf tu dresden de article seti inria fr , deniaud cartoon inria fr \( gilles deniaud \) writes thanks people helped problem displaying 24 bit images viewers like xli , xloadimage display converting 24 bit images 8 bit display screen really want viewer make use 24 bit frame screen buffer \( case , parallax one \) try imagemagick cannot test one told 24bit anyway , sure xserver supports 24bit truecolor visuals \? check xdpyinfo ! brain inside andre' beck \( abpsoft \) mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de
jk87377 lehtori cc tut fi \( kouhia juhana \) subject comp graphics research \? \? organization tampere university technology lines 13 distribution inet nntp posting host cc tut fi seen articles comp graphics research long time work anymore \? seen many conference related postings comp graphics , hard believe people tried post c g research somebody got article comp graphics research , write post juhana kouhia
ericsson se \( lyndon fletcher \) subject polaroid palette system \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? nntp posting host ericsson se organization ericsson cellular division lines 15 anyone information polaroid palette system appears gadget transfering graphics images film anyone detail like maximum supported resolution types video input \? \? \? \? polaroid market \? \? \? \? \? irregularities handled forces controlling dimension trans heavy elements may used life medium atomic weights available gold , lead , copper , jet , diamond , , sapphire , silver , steel sapphire steel assigned
z ccsvax sfasu edu subject tiff anything \? ! organization stephen f austin state university lines 14 program called graphic workshop ftp wuarchive file msdos graphics directory called grfwk61t zip program od everthing need tmc \( tmc spartan ac brocku ca \) could specific \? need file could n't find amongst directories wuarchive page z ccsvax sfasu edu
lightwave admin bobsbox rent com \( lightwave 3d mail list administrator \) subject monthly lightwave mailing list faq lines 130 lightwave3d mail list lightwave \? lightwave3d part suite programs come bundled device called toaster \( newtek , inc \) operates amiga platform lightwave software \( lightwave lightwave3d lightwave modeler \) allows artist create three dimensional photo realistic images variety purposes \? mailing list interested lightwave software , operates ideas obtain best quality images available list toaster lightwave well interested done package hope share information , tips , procedures bond group rules \? since lightwave modeler part newtek video toaster software , i'm sure discuss items related operation toaster however , strive keep subject specifically around 3d software , related tools products toaster join list ! ok ! join \? become member lightwave3d mailing list must send mail message address lightwave request bobsbox rent com body message enter subscribe lightwave l name site domain ask signed sign list point time process manual hope get automated script based system place soon n't much delay joining expect welcome message within 5 days send request , expect mail start flowing ! post list \? contributing list simple mail articles following address lightwave bobsbox rent com article processed system distributed others joined list articles also sent know article made list however , addresses either good longer active bounce back , post article another members address longer valid , original article returned n't mean n't posted list fact , opposite true means article posted could n't sent one members list due bad address note hope fix behavior soon quit list \? simply mail request removed list address used sign lightwave request bobsbox rent com body message enter unsubscribe lightwave l name site domain remove name list members please , join list account going closed able receive mail , send request removed list ! going lose access short still send request suspension membership suspend forwarding articles old articles \? currently archiving articles posted list originating site \( bobsbox \) however , continue due lack disk space need volunteer maintain compendium articles sent list compress store archives system periodically post index contents compendium information relates volunteers maybe someone donate large scsi hard drive archival purposes grin setup mail based file server anyone interested list obtain information well entire archive past articles , membership listing information pertaining lightwave3d mailing list information service , please send mail message bobsbox rent com first command server must help user name passwd use help request current copy use user name passwd connect service use \? get short listing available commands \? well , sit back enjoy pouring information something offer , please feel free contribute information list every little bit helps questions welcomed ! makes us feel important answer grin questions comments regarding list , please contact address lightwave admin bobsbox rent com cheers , bob lindabury
ad robot bobsbox rent com \( robotic posting menace ! \) subject one stop graphics shop ! reply root graphics rent com lines 102 h e g r p h c b b rent com 's better sharp stick eye ! andy meyer pleased announce upgraded system new hayes ultra 144 v 32bis v 42bis modem allow connections 300bps 38 , ! featuring graphics specific system interested things 3d graphics , image processing , animation , clip art latest public domain graphics programs ! graphics specific mailing lists imagine 3d , dctv lightwave 3d mailing lists aliased easy read forums join read many come ! free usenet access free netmail sites world ! ability contact software hardware developers right mainframes sending netmail graphics bbs ! mention kids college parents college quick connections reliable links , mail sent around world matter minutes ! unique conference \( bulletin \) section join keep track conferences enjoy ability read files personal file area use messages also , proper access , create conference moderate usenet include topics graphics , mac , amiga , ibm , science , erotica , ham radio , star trek , diving , programmers forums , game designers forums , cyberspace forums sophisticated , easy learn use mail system ever created pc ! easily read mail , delete move personal directory storage reply attach files mail send another member smart sendmail feature ensures accurate addressing netmail ability send mail messages arpanet , usenet , internet , bitnet networks interface around world fidonet , uucp network university research facility systems file library containing downloads popular computers featuring easy learn use system library features master directory listing , search capabilities well complete archived file listings file library supports popular transfer protocols x , , z modem well advance protocols hs link bi modem file library also doubles file server users sites around world ! complete control environment select whether want hot key control , menus , prompting etc define cancel key choose terminal emulation also edit personal login script want online games \( global war , jet combat simulator , etc \) new games added online manual extensive help facilities complete tracking online usage time 170 megabytes storage graphics bbs currently runs ibm 8mhz 4 meg ram , meg ide drive call graphics bbs 908 469 0049 300 baud , 24 hours day , everyday ! system bob lindabury graphics rent com
cs ruu nl \( roderick \) subject dxf pcx , gif , tif tga \? organization utrecht university , dept computer science lines 15 murashiea 16 mail beckman com murashiea mail beckman com \( ed murashie \) writes anyone know program pc take autocad dxf format files convert raster format , like pcx , gif , etc \? thanks advance ed i'm also interested program 'd like know wich program able convert gif pcx dxf ! ! ! program , scan pictures \( something like ! \) beyond limit ! ! ! roderick
wvnvms wvnet edu subject ntsc data rgb \? video capture organization west virginia network educational telecomputing lines 11 anyone know decode color information ntsc signal \? need convert data rgb video capture utility writing use ibm motion video adapter card need know v u signals work color process thanks advance information algorythms etc later net
tmc spartan ac brocku ca \( tim ciceran \) subject best ftp viewer please organization brock university , st catharines ontario x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 19 situnaya ibm3090 bham ac uk wrote could someone please tell best viewer available msdos running 486 33mhz svga monitor need look gifs mainly would advantageous ran windows thanks ftp wuarchive wustl edu , change mirrors msdos graphics get grfwk61t zip dos version graphic workshop windows version could probably find mirrors msdos windows3 directory n't know file name tmc \( tmc spartan ac brocku ca \)
tmc spartan ac brocku ca \( tim ciceran \) subject turning photographic images thermal print negatives organization brock university , st catharines ontario x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 22 jennifer lynn urso \( andrew cmu edu \) wrote well , lots experience scanning images altering changing back negatives , really possible \? \( stuff deleted \) jennifer urso oh bitter woman utter \( cheerful undertones \) use aldus photostyler pc turn colour black white image negative turn negative colour black white image n't know works well test scanned negative used aldus create positive looked better print film developers gave tmc \( tmc spartan ac brocku ca \)
po cwru edu \( daniel alt \) subject interesting conversion problem organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 13 reply po cwru edu \( daniel alt \) nntp posting host slc5 ins cwru edu large \( feet \) file macintosh canvas v2 something need import autocad 12 least disk space intensive way possible \( e eps big problem , since took 1 3 meg encode one page document \) file entirely lines words access networked macs pc 's , ftp anyone suggest might accomplished \? email replies , would , n't read group much thanks advance daniel alt case western reserve university cleveland , oh \( help ! \) n't ulcers i'm carrier ca n't see , n't pretend n't like spreading rumors , else \? n't practice preach i'm kind person preach
kardank ere umontreal ca \( kardan kaveh \) subject human head modeling software organization universite de montreal lines 19 article taurus cs nps navy mil adaptive cs nps navy mil \( zyda res acct \) writes hi , ! interested facial animation want implement program area n't 3 information face looking 3d images face try getting cyberware demo via ftp contains 3d images face copyright status data \? restrictions regarding uses put \? kaveh kaveh kardan kardank ere umontreal ca
stern brahms udel edu \( garland stern \) subject looking hot mac 3d anim software distribution usa organization university delaware lines 6 nntp posting host brahms udel edu interested finding 3d animation programs mac especially interested programs n't exist pc port good would make go buy mac exist \? thanks advance
sigma rahul net \( kevin martin \) subject tiff philosophical significance 42 \( silly \) nntp posting host bolero organization a2i network lines 26 skates gsfc nasa gov xrcjd mudpuppy gsfc nasa gov \( charles j divine \) writes article geraldo cc utexas edu mark cartwright markc emx utexas edu writes course question yet discovered question later revealed 9 x 6 \? \( base 13 system , course \) read last couple books series closely \( well , 3 4 least \) , least two points real question implied conversations proceed much like zaphod ultimate question , wonder \? arthur \( paying much attention zaphod , needing random seed infinite drive \) think number , number actually , may marvin uses phrase times well , everytime 's arranged think number , number could answer someone 's question question kind like 's even pick number tell number , think one kevin martin sigma rahul net use flipper !
ttrusk mcw edu \( thomas trusk \) subject geosphere image organization medical college wisconsin lines 37 reply ttrusk mcw edu nntp posting host pixel mcw edu article 1993apr27 news nd edu rmalayte grumpy helios nd edu \( ryan malayter \) writes anyone know digitized version geosphere image available via ftp \? n't know , composite photograph entire earth , removed think 's really cool created government funds sattelites research project , would assume 's public domain thanks info , ryan copy 'the earth wall purchased space shots , inc \( la , ca \( 800 \) 272 \) printed poster , image created tom van geosphere project image copyrighted , doubt 'll find legally public domain part proceeds sale image go geosphere project \( environmental education thing \) , cost nominal , crack 20 buy one ! also , n't think 's always safe assume government project , products provided free many government agencies \( nasa , noaa \) private groups \( national geographic \) provided assistance geosphere project collaboration seems mostly oriented educating public , rather pure research dr thomas trusk dept cellular biology anatomy email ttrusk mcw edu medical college wisconsin milwaukee , wi \( 414 \) 257 disclaimer affiliation mentioned groups opinion , flame advertisement \? turned lights \? 's funny noise \? feel strange
matess gsusgi1 gsu edu \( eliza strickler \) subject donwloaded bin file unix machine \? organization georgia state university lines 42 niko iastate edu \( e \) writes article matess gsusgi1 gsu edu matess gsusgi1 gsu edu \( eliza strickler \) writes donwloaded bin file unix machine supposed converted mac format anyone know need file get dos , mac unix readable format someone mentioned fetch unix machine correct \? could someone explain bin format little \? almost certainly macbinary file encoded version mac file resource fork data fork get preserved need program converts regular file macbinary file , may downloaded text mode probably corrupt \( \) 're using ftp transfer point make sure type binary first open file text editor find \( file must converted bin top , binhex file decoded binhex 4 0 \( among programs \) opened file text editor looks like e already tried binhex seem work ideas \? niko project vincent systems manager email niko iastate edu iowa state university computation center voice \( 515 \) 294 ames ia 50011 snail 291 durham 0 0 elizabeth strickler 0 \( matess gsusgi1 gsu edu
wpwood austin ibm com subject hpgl viewer utilities reply gaetan lord , ecole polytechnique de montreal 's message wed , 28 apr 1993 03 11 06 gmt reply wpwood austin ibm com \( bill woodward \) organization institute knowledge jinx lines 20 article music mus polymtl ca gaetan lord , ecole polytechnique de montreal music mus polymtl ca writes hi would like know software , pd , could produce x11 output hpgl file rs 6000 kind software could produce hardcopy postscript try export lcs mit edu think viewer called check readme contrib bill woodward wpwood austin ibm com try first aix software support austin ibm com graphics group 512 838 terror night
edu pl \( krzysztof \) subject gif targa nntp posting host organization warsaw university physics dept lines 7 hello , subject says need gif targa converter , could make fli krzysztof
cs uct ac za \( gerhard van \) subject viewing jpeg files article cs organization computer science department , university cape town lines 36 1993apr28 ucbeh san uc edu ucbeh san uc edu writes view jpeg files without special hardware \? lucy wilson , access services librarian college engineering , university cincinnati yup jpeg viewers seem require specific video drivers since support specific video cards standard ibm bios video support vga 320x200 256 colour mode , leave cards hercules monochrome card \( way give good picture quality dithering works right \) ca n't remember name jpeg viewer since usually convert jpeg 's gif 's viewing require vesa driver video cards n't need special hardware view jpeg 's except perhaps vga card maybe 286 processor people days program 286 computers neglect rest 86 processors \( 8086 , 8088 \) 8088 clone \( nec processor \) hercules card , write programs view gif 's animations vga colour graphics boards monochrome hercules card use floyd steinberg found one something neat colour palette resulting dithered image gives much greater detail normally would viewed monochrome systems 8 50 fs dithering standard thing image palette dithering , way gives brighter detailed image anyway , enough rambling wrong direction final point , far know , n't need extra hardware view jpeg 's vga \( perhaps 286 better \) day ! gerry
larry med ge com \( larry \) subject corel draw harvard draw \? distribution usa organization ge corp r center , schenectady ny lines 23 nntp posting host med ge com wife wants publish newsletter 's artist , intends use comercial clipart bit drawing circle box around etc manipulating text , suitable much graphics , needs tool right 's looking corel draw harvard draw seem books stores corel harvard , 's inclined go corel basis popularity anyone give us informed opinion package would suitable even better alternative available \? faq , please withhold flames send location faq document thanks three ps 's 1 \) ok use clip art harvard draw whatever commercial purposes \? 2 \) 600 dpi laser jet 4 printer would good scanner reading paper clipart \? 3 \) someone starting newsgroup desktop publishing one n't exist \?
rrz uni koeln de \( dr reinhard moeller \) subject real time visualization organization regional computing center , university cologne lines 19 distribution world nntp posting host rrz uni koeln de keywords graphics , simulation cc hello , interested hear people working field visual simulation , ie driving simulation , flight simulation etc would pleased see , going field research industrial development interested well workshop \( held german \) , situated , november 18 19 1993 , specially related topic title der complete details available please contact r moeller elektro uni de
prevost eos arc nasa gov \( michael prevost \) subject geosphere image organization nasa ames research center distribution usa lines 30 rmalayte grumpy helios nd edu \( ryan malayter \) writes article 31 alt graphics newsgroups alt graphics path news nd edu ! moliere ! rmalayte rmalayte moliere helios nd edu \( ryan malayter \) subject geosphere images via ftp \? message id 1993apr26 news nd edu sender news news nd edu \( usenet news system \) organization university notre dame , notre dame date mon , 26 apr 1993 21 36 48 gmt anyone know digitized version geosphere image available via ftp \? n't know , composite photograph entire earth , removed think 's really cool created government funds sattelites research project , would assume 's public domain image copyrighted early another news group used texture map planet orbiting simulation program freely distributed texture map picture earth pulled copyright infringement issues mp michael prevost sterling software moffett field ca prevost eos arc nasa gov
pmartz dsd es com \( paul martz \) subject kubota kenai denali specs nntp posting host bambam reply pmartz dsd es com \( paul martz \) organization evans sutherland computer corp , salt lake city , ut lines 30 article names nerdc ufl edu , lioness maple circa ufl edu writes okay , got enough replies kubota kenai denali systems post summary capabilities graphics transform modules 1 6 1 6 frame buffer modules 5 , 10 , 20 5 , 10 , 20 frame buffer 1280x1024x24bit 1280x1024x24bit double buffered double buffered z buffer 24 bit 24 bit alpha 8 bit 8 bit mean either alpha , simultaneously \? stereo support yes yes machines double buffer stereo output per window auxiliary video output rs 170a , ntsc , pal question , mean either double buffering stereo , simultaneously \? paul pmartz dsd es com evans sutherland
wes uf msc edu \( wes barris \) subject help need 24 bits viewer keywords 24 bit reply wes msc edu organization ahpcrc , minnesota supercomputer center lines 22 article 1993apr27 nessie mcc ac uk , lilley v5 cgu mcc ac uk \( chris lilley \) writes article seti inria fr , deniaud cartoon inria fr \( gilles deniaud \) writes i'm looking program able display 24 bits images using sun sparc equipped parallax graphics board running x11 utah raster toolkit using getx11 convert sun raster files \( presumably \) ppm pbm toolkit convert ppm utah rle format ppmtorle provided toolkit use urt tool seem remember xloadimage 24 bit servers yes , newer xli wes barris ph \( 612 \) 626 minnesota supercomputer center , inc email wes msc edu
wes uf msc edu \( wes barris \) subject wanted 24 bit viewer reply wes msc edu organization ahpcrc , minnesota supercomputer center lines 17 article seti inria fr , deniaud cartoon inria fr \( gilles deniaud \) writes hello , thanks people helped problem displaying 24 bit images viewers like xli , xloadimage display converting 24 bit images 8 bit display screen really want viewer make use 24 bit frame screen buffer \( case , parallax one \) xli xloadimage display 24 bit color 24 bit visual available check output xdpyinfo see one wes barris ph \( 612 \) 626 minnesota supercomputer center , inc email wes msc edu
guest lan cs ac za \( guest user \) subject cga help wanted organization students network , computer science department , university pretoria lines 16 distribution world nntp posting host 11 cs ac za hi , i'm looking help hi cga modes \( hey , know sounds crazy moment 's got \) card 's manual says something like 640 400 2 colour 640 200 4 colour \( card 64k memory \) could anyone give help implement modes \( assembly language fine \) usefull tips cga regs also help thanx advance email ac za
mizzou1 missouri edu \( david k drum \) subject happened dkb l trearn \? \? \? organization university missouri x posted mizzou1 missouri edu nntp posting host sol ctr columbia edu lines 12 hello , 've dkbtrace povray mailing list trearn bitnet time , tried post day listserv told list n't exist ! got global list groups listserv nothing ! every string could think frank , ville saari , andre beck , anyone else 's regular dkb l tell going , please ! regards , david k drum mizzou1 missouri edu
lise unit \( \) subject tangent vectors splines organization university trondheim lines 33 i'm working system uses given set 3d key frame positions \( x , , z \) control imaginary camera movement i'm using splines \( described siggraph '84 proceedings \) create variable number key frames want given form \( x , , z , dx , dy , dz \) last three x , z component viewing direction vector camera positioned \( x , , z \) method presented deals positions inbetween view points generated 've tried set viewing direction view point equal chord two adjacent view points \( general key frames \) , causes viewing direction vector key frame positions \( although spatial movement seems work fine i'm quite certain think \) 've simply made implementation error \) wonder anyone used spline form similar purposes decided viewing vectors 'd appreciate replies emailed lise unit anyone else interested answer sent summary replies contact n g e r k e lise unit comp sc nth \( norwegian institute technology \) people play hard get , play hard want \( ford \)
einkauf austin ibm com \( mark einkauf \) subject need help z buffering lines areas together originator mark einkauf austin ibm com organization ibm austin keywords z buffer , roundoff , lines , areas lines 105 david gorgen writes i'm asking help sticky problem involving unreasonably low apparent precision z buffering , 've encountered 2 different pex implementations ca n't find discussion problem resources lay hands \( e g comp windows x pex faq , gaskins 's pexlib programming manual , vendors' documentation \) problem solved eliminate minimize stitching artifacts resulting use z buffering polylines coplanar filled areas interpolated z values along line differ slightly , due roundoff error , interpolated z values across area , even endpoints line vertices area , 's whether z buffer allow line pixels area pixels displayed visually , result tends dashed line effect even though line supposed solid using pexlib api , approach solution use two slightly different pex view mapping transforms , two view table entries , one areas one lines pex structures immediate mode output must organized one view table index always effect areas , always effect lines result slight shift npc z coordinates lines , attempt bias situations favor lines shift effected moving front back clipping planes used pexlib view table entry lines hair backwards \( e smaller z coordinates \) , compared positions view table entry used areas means point transformed npc , z value slightly bigger comes line comes area , thus accomplishing desired bias would expect z roundoff errors cause problem amount units , entire dynamic range z buffer , typically 0 65535 \( e 16 24 bit z buffers \) therefore , seems tiny fraction range z front back clip planes ought suffice reliably fix stitching fact , experience shows shift much 0 003 0 006 range \( empirically , 's worst npc z component slope surface high , e appears less edge viewer \) 's 8 9 bits z buffer dependable meaning ! amount great one problem replaced another sometimes polylines show areas supposed lie behind 've observed problem hewlett packard digital workstation pex servers , approximately degree test program demonstrates problem mit pexlib 5 x implementation version known compile run hp ux system pex 5 1 open questions \( 1 \) happen \? configuring pex view table wrongly \? systematic difference z interpolation lines opposed areas \( e g pixel centers versus corners \) could corrected \? pex implementors z precision \? something else \? \( 2 \) \? fix use view table allow better precision z buffered \? another approach take remove stitching artifacts \? luck \? ibm problem workstations also shocked first realized offset lines fills 16 bits \( assuming 24 bit z buffer \) seems huge , 1 256 dynamic range terms n't seem bad happening interpolation z totally linear , due mainly roundoff , believe polygon planar z , like potato chip ditto lines start end different x values , ridges phase , resulting effect problem try draw 1 polygon right top another , different vertices likely see smeared effect overlap example try polygon 1 \( 100 , 100 , 100 \) \( 100 , 200 , 100 \) \( 200 , 200 , 100 \) \( 200 , 100 , 100 \) polygon 2 \( 125 , 125 , 100 \) \( 125 , 175 , 100 \) \( 175 , 175 , 100 \) \( 175 , 125 , 100 \) implementation correct fact , similar trick rendering primitives lines polygons nurbs surfaces lines without trick , lines appear , say application draws lines polygons independently , system automatically z shifting , application must discovered bravo ! \( note information given previously disclosed proper channels i'm giving away new unpublished info \) mark einkauf einkauf austin ibm com ibm advanced workstations systems graphics systems austin tx views opinions expressed herein necessarily ibm corp
ii uib \( torgeir veimo \) subject virtual sound keywords virtual sound , surround sound organization institutt informatikk uib norway lines 31 i'm looking algorithms articles virtual sound want following fast source , eg cdrom , several sound sources read , 's defined position attributes , eg direction etc given position direction , sum sound played back function position direction means simulation ears coloring sound relative 's incoming direction done sound source \( think possible lookup table impulse responses several angles relative ear , interpolate impulse function given angle impulse function could convoluted sound source impulse function must changed every time sound source changes position listener changes orientation \) additionally reflection , diffusion absorbtion due environment wich defined could simulated , requires sort sound simulation , kinda like radiosity algorithm someone done written articles implementing system \? please post mail answers comments torgeir veimo studying university bergen i'm gona wave freak flag high ! \( hendrix \) would okay day ! \( police \)
hawks seq uncwil edu \( david hawks \) subject turning photographic images thermal print negatives organization univ north carolina wilmington lines 44 jennifer lynn urso andrew cmu edu writes also anyone else planning would happy hear advice might provide computer system use peripherals software seemed quadra 800 would best bet modify photographic images planning buying quadra 800 ram , hard drive , 1200 dpi scanner , 17 sony monitor cartridge drive perhaps cd rom new computers advice would great well , lots experience scanning images altering changing back negatives , really possible \? scanning altering big deal n't know types features version photoshop one use \( , incidentally quadra \) gallery effects types stuff i'm wondering would want put images back negatives , print image 's print know exactly aim \? like , fun , business , gain computer knowledge , project 're working otherwise , guess n't know 'd helping posting info scanning stuff ok \? cool jennifer urso oh bitter woman utter \( cheerful undertones \) business end product photograph take damaged black whites , usually old , , repair hand present would like using computer trying find vendor convert computer stored images negatives thermal print customer want copy much possible like brand new original david ps thanks sent information helpful learning computers combined photography anyone else information would grateful
lioness maple circa ufl edu subject kubota kenai denali specs organization center instructional research computing activities lines 21 reply lioness ufcc ufl edu nntp posting host maple circa ufl edu article 1993apr28 dsd es com , pmartz dsd es com \( paul martz \) writes mean either alpha , simultaneously \? n't know answer one , although 8 bits would assume one stereo support yes yes machines double buffer stereo output per window auxiliary video output rs 170a , ntsc , pal question , mean either double buffering stereo , simultaneously \? according literature , buffering double buffered stereo output brian
alford novavax uucp \( steven alford \) subject gif wpg tiff converter keywords gif , convert organization nova university , fort lauderdale , fl lines 16 looking available program would convert gif files formats usable dos based software wordperfect presentations \( handle wpg tiff , among others \) suggestions would appreciated thank much time help steve alford novavax nova edu steve alford , nova university college avenue , ft lauderdale , fl uucp gatech ! , ucf cs ! novavax ! alford internet alford novavax nova edu
crosfield co uk \( richard kirk \) subject tiff philosophical significance 42 \( silly \) organization crosfield , hemel , uk lines 9 's number legs , know richard kirk image processing group crosfield electronics ltd u k crosfield co uk hemel , , hp2
rahul net \( stefan hartmann \) subject genoa 's true color board organization a2i network lines 58 nntp posting host bolero immediate release editorial contact single source marketing \( 714 \) 545 1338 genoa systems joseph \( 408 \) 432 9090 neil roehm \( 408 \) 432 9090 technical genoa presents high performance video graphics accelerator san jose , calif usa genoa systems corporation announces windowsvga 24 , true color 24 bit graphics accelerator card delivers 16 8 million colors speeds faster competition plus offers full range resolutions , high refresh rates well unique proprietary performance features card available 16 bit isa bus 32 bit vesa local bus versions \( models 8500 \) 1mb dram board , windowsvga 24 card offers maximum resolution 1 , 280 x 1 , 024 supports refresh rate 72hz 800 x 600 resolution 1 , 024 x 768 non interlaced models provide performance many times greater standard svga boards , yet conform current video standards windowsvga 24 features genoa 's \( tm \) technology , eliminates screen flash flicker make viewing much comfortable cards also come \( tm \) , utility developed genoa eliminate black border around screen thereby provide 100 percent screen use monitors windowsvga model takes full advantage speed offered new vesa local bus technology vl bus cards handle data transfers 33mhz , transfer data full speed cpu , 50mhz genoa also offering card combination packaged motherboard built around cirrus logic gd 5426 gui accelerator , windowsvga 24 offers user exceptional price performance value genoa 's advanced proprietary drivers act chip , thereby providing affordable accelerator card power performance surpass many highly priced chip cards genoa user enjoy optimal speed reliability programs windows , autocad , , 3d studio , os 2 , driver updates product bulletins available genoa 's bbs \( 408 \) 943 1231 genoa systems manufactures markets extensive line graphics adapters , motherboards , audio multimedia cards ibm compatible personal computers products come two year limited warranty parts labor genoa products currently distributed worldwide authorized distributors , resellers , vars systems information contact joe , marketing manager , genoa systems 75 e road , san jose , calif 95131 tel \( 408 \) 432 9090 \( 800 \) 934 fax \( 408 \) 434 stefan hartmann rahul net
cas org \( larry w virden \) subject looking patches xv better support tiff output reply lvirden cas org \( larry w virden \) organization software shoe , uninc lines 16 recently found tiff manipulation packages recognize tiff files output xv due missing tag apparently required \( least believed required \) valid tiff checked xv 2 x xv 3 x neither indeed copy tags anyone hacked fixes xv support tags \? told could find code tiff tools c , directory one many tiff group distributed xv hope obtain original tiff src look , would prefer find code already known work xv larry w virden inet lvirden cas org personal 674 falls place , , oh
gw wmich edu subject pc paint program \( v1 1 \? \) help organization western michigan university lines 14 looking shareware graphics package called v1 1 saw shareware catalog hoping could ftp net unable locate tried archie gone entire comp graphics newsgroup looking reference found none also looked faq also reference program called v1 1 anyone heard knows get would appreciate suggestions pc based shareware paint programs would also appreciated email responses much thanks , sean
schwartz ils nwu edu \( diane schwartz \) subject sigkids research showcase call organization institute learning sciences lines 15 distribution world nntp posting host schwartz ils nwu edu brought attention oversight sigkids research showcase call participation entry form please note sigkids research showcase part siggraph '93 , august 1 6 , 1993 anaheim , california thank , diane schwartz sigkids committee member institute learning sciences 1890 maple avenue , suite 150 evanston , illinois schwartz ils nwu edu
cs ubc ca \( tony lau \) subject 3 widget wish list \? organization university british columbia , vancouver , b c , canada lines 31 distribution world nntp posting host cascade cs ubc ca keywords 3 widget , manipulation , feedback , user interface design system interested hearing using implementing 3 interactive applications types 3 widgets would like applications 3 widget usually located scene 3 objects application may let manipulate application data , camera , 3 objects scene , view status application 3 objects via widget 's shape , color , position , orientation , whatever missed think possible example , manipulative widget virtual trackball \( shown partially transparent sphere \) super imposed object rotated feedback widget ruler ends anchored 2 objects length ruler changes objects move numeric value shown ruler indicating distance widget provide manipulation feedback example , ruler used change distance objects along axis please e mail post opinions 3 interaction information gathered help design 3 ui construction tool help much appreciated tony lau cs ubc ca sc student dept computer science
hollasch kpc com \( steve hollasch \) subject kubota kenai denali specs summary clarifications organization kubota pacific computer , inc lines 35 lioness maple circa ufl edu okay , got enough replies kubota kenai denali systems post summary capabilities graphics transform modules 1 6 1 6 frame buffer modules 5 , 10 , 20 5 , 10 , 20 frame buffer 1280x1024x24bit 1280x1024x24bit double buffered double buffered z buffer 24 bit 24 bit alpha 8 bit 8 bit pmartz dsd es com \( paul martz \) mean either alpha , simultaneously \? lioness maple circa ufl edu stereo support yes yes machines double buffer stereo output per window auxiliary video output rs 170a , ntsc , pal pmartz dsd es com \( paul martz \) question , mean either double buffering stereo , simultaneously \? questions , 's inclusive alpha plus supported \( 're separate \) , double buffered stereo steve hollasch kubota pacific computer , inc hollasch kpc com santa clara , california right math hard
subject phigs user group conference hamlin ug eds com \( griff hamlin \) reply hamlin ug eds com \( griff hamlin \) distribution world organization eds , cypress ca nntp posting host 134 244 15 158 lines 173 first annual phigs user group conference first annual phigs user group conference held march 21 24 orlando , florida conference organized design research center co operation ieee sig graph attendees came five countries three con good cross section phigs community represented conference participants including phigs users , workstation vendors , third party phigs implementors , stan committee members , researchers industry academia opening speaker , dr richard puk , challenged phigs users take charge phigs participating phigs standardization activities communicating needs phigs implementors closing speaker , dr van dam , described vision future graphics standards beyond phigs technical paper sessions conference covered following topics phigs x , application toolkits , application issues , texture mapping , nurbs , phigs extensions , object oriented libraries frameworks panel sessions phigs pex , phigs non retained data , real world cad applications using phigs , portability issues generated enthusiastic discussions formed good forum exchange ideas , needs , experiences conference also included day full tutorials topics rang ing mathematics 3d graphics object oriented tools based phigs next year 's conference planned march , 1994 phigs everywhere conference , phigs vendors described demonstrated phigs products run types computers , pcs mainframes megatek corporation demonstrated phigs extensions including conditional traversal , composite logical input devices , template graphics software launched figaro pro , photo realistic option phigs figaro pro designed add advanced rendering existing phigs api , features like ray tracing , materials , anti aliasing texture mapping radiosity support also planned figaro example continues add newly emerging graphics features products figaro supports immediate mode extensions phigs also supports sun xgl , hp starbase sgi gl opengl figaro nt released summer also demonstrated latest versions , powerful 2 call system based phigs , , object oriented utility library phigs pex developers g5g software demonstrated new version gphigs silicon graphics workstations scheduled summer , 1993 , ver sion 3 0 gphigs , company 's phigs library tions , include advanced phigs debugger allows phigs developers display browse phigs structures phigs internal state g5g also described non duplicated data store stores pointers application data gphigs css efficient use memory addition , g5g described application allows application callback functions gphigs traversal gphigs , g5g 's data visual application development toolkit , currently available major workstations support gl , x windows , pex , starbase wise software presented slide show z phigs ms windows arena , phigs based modeller render z phigs implements phigs primitives addition z phigs built many advanced rendering features like texture mapping , shadow tion , area quick updates ray tracing demo disk z phigs arena available request atc exhibited grafpak phigs , full featured phigs based dec phigs grafpak phigs available workstation platforms c , fortran ada bindings pex support within booth sponsored advanced technology center , digital equipment corporation demonstrated dec phigs v2 4 running dec 3000 400 axp pxg grafpak phigs port dec phigs dec phigs v2 4 contains phigs phigs plus features support pex v5 1 protocol dec phigs also contains gm eds phigs extensions including post view well proprietary extensions support immediate mode rendering use phigs x11 environment axp , dec , dec phigs trademarks digital equipment cor grafpak phigs atc trademarks advanced tech center pex x11 trademarks massachusetts technology ibm exhibit featured gto accelerator attached ibm 340 workstation running graphigs pex hewlett packard demonstrated conference hewlett packard machine coupled display pex terminal hp latest phigs product enhance ments phigs user group phigs users group formed aid development phigs applications provide user feedback phigs implementors phigs standards bodies information phigs users group , send e mail vt edu write virginia polytechnic institute 114 randolph hall blacksburg , va fax 703 231 9100 vendor contacts megatek corporation tel \( 619 \) 455 fax \( 619 \) 453 template graphics software tel \( 800 \) 544 4847 fax \( 619 \) 452 wise software gmbh tel 49 451 413 fax 49 451 499 g5g north american sales tel \( 800 \) 267 2626 fax \( 613 \) 592 advanced technology center tel \( 800 \) 999 fax \( 714 \) 583 digital equipment corporation tel \( 603 \) 884 5111 international business machines corporation tel \( 800 \) 426 3333 hewlett packard company tel \( 303 \) 229 copies conference proceedings copies conference proceedings may obtained contact ing mary johnson johnson , mary design manufacturing institute rensselaer polytechnic institute 110 eighth street building cii , room troy , ny 12180 tel \( 518 \) 276 fax \( 518 \) 276 email rdrc rpi edu cost 75 00 per binder
patel enuxha eas asu edu \( patel \) subject parametric variational design keywords parametric variational design organization arizona state university lines 16 hi everyone , looking papers books source information parametric variational design cad solid modeling references would greatly thanks advance patel enuxha eas asu edu \( ip 129 219 30 6 \)
cleveland freenet edu \( gregory \) subject broad question organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 20 nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu considering creating demo ibm pc band would like combine interesting graphics sample music program seen things like done platforms , even pc , since i'm completly new , idea start i'm pretty sure skilled enough put together , hoping \( \) could let know issues need worry , things take consideration developing concept b perhaps someone knows programmer artist would interested type project know rather broad questions , information would helpful thanks ! ! gregory po cwru edu
spl pitstop ucsd edu \( steve lamont \) subject rgb hvs , back organization university calif , san diego microscopy imaging resource lines 21 nntp posting host pitstop ucsd edu article 1993apr28 htsa aha nl htsa aha nl \( remco \) writes little question need convert rgb coded \( red green blue \) colors hvs coded \( hue value \) colors anyone know formulas use \? little answer see foley , van dam , feiner , hughes , computer graphics principles practice , second edition people would read book , 75 percent questions would disappear overnight spl steve lamont , sciviguy \( 619 \) 534 7968 spl szechuan ucsd edu san diego microscopy imaging resource uc san diego la jolla , ca 92093 0608 car car , bumper strip seen 805
ecs comm mot com \( david lau \) subject gif viewer source code pc \? organization motorola lines 10 nntp posting host 145 1 161 169 anyone know could get source code gif viewer pc n't fancy , would best written c display gif pictures vga screen hoping get free ftp site , n't able find yet david lau ecs comm mot com
focus csl uiuc edu \( \) subject final call papers organization center reliable high performance computing , university illinois urbana champaign lines 62 nntp posting host focus csl uiuc edu summary final neural networks shape analysis keywords paper , neural networks , shape analysis call papers progress neural networks special volume shape analysis series editor volume editor significant progress made recently shape analysis using neural networks energy concept publishing corporation planning special volume shape analysis , scheduled year volume part progress neural networks , annual book series reviewing research modelling , analysis , design application neural networks primary aim volume present , single volume , important achievements made important topic , otherwise scattered diverse literature authors invited submit original manuscripts detailing recent progress suggested topics include , limited shape modelling , shape estimation , shape recovery , shape representation , shape matching , surface reconstruction surface decomposition research work utilizing neural networks directly based energy techniques markov random field , mean field , simulated , graduated non algorithms resistive networks welcome paper tutorial nature , self contained preferably , necessarily , fifty double spaced pages length please send electronically \( prefer , send hardcopy address \) abstract outline ima enst fr may 30 , 1993 full paper must submitted july 31 , 1993 europe usa professor professor department images computer science department ecole superieure university district columbia des telecommunications 4200 connecticut ave n w 46 , rue washington c paris cedex 13 phone \( 202 \) 282 france fax \( 202 \) 282 fax 33 1 45 81 37 94 email bitnet email ima enst fr
zyda cs nps navy mil \( michael zyda \) subject acm siggraph registration problem organization naval postgraduate school , monterey lines 17 word warning registering siggraph '93 received registration form back mail envelope marked return sender moved left address closed po box address used register siggraph '93 one printed registration form acm siggraph '93 po box , chicago , il 5316 printed envelope best printing , honest evidently siggraph '93 skipped town moved \? ended faxing registration 312 321 hope number real ! michael zyda
beck irzr17 inf tu dresden de \( andre beck \) subject ntsc data rgb \? video capture reply andre beck irs inf tu dresden de organization dept computer science , tu dresden , germany lines 25 nntp posting host irzr17 inf tu dresden de usually , apply r 1 0 1 402 g 1 0 0 u b 1 1 772 0 v u v \( 128 \) matrix multiplication may give results rgb space , clamp resulting bytes 0 255 conversion done arbitrary big integers , \) applies yuv data whereas ntsc may 33 degree rotation u v brain inside andre' beck \( abpsoft \) mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de
osprey ux4 cso uiuc edu \( lucas adamski \) subject fast polygon routine needed keywords polygon , needed organization university illinois urbana champaign lines 22 article 1993apr26 eye com jesse eye com \( jesse \) writes article cc swin edu au alan saturn cs swin oz au \( alan christiansen \) writes believe algorithms get draw convex polygons much efficient draw concave self intersecting polygons efficiency largely attributed fact simple convex polygons left right edge scan line complex \( figure 8 type polygons \) bit trickier true convex algorithm faster general concave multi outline algorithm , tremendously faster spent awhile implementing optimizing flavors , convex turned 10 faster c \( hp pa risc compiler got inner loop shooting span fast possible , far could tell \) sort game database render known ahead time , made convex definitely way go ok , thanks help everyone ! still n't found quite i'm looking , 've got finals coming soon put hold thanx , lucas
amit math tau ac il \( amit \) subject digital terrain data visualization needed organization school math cs tel aviv university , tel aviv , israel lines 29 need terrain data visualization research currently taking place tel aviv university two databases currently working , would like work databases , possibly complicated ones give prettier images describe kind data need , let mention going present paper titled photo realistic imaging digital describes research results , conference , september going show video tape results , good data receive presented tape , mention working databases consisting aerial satelite photographs , terrain elevation maps \( \) database consists 2d array height values \( data format used value \) , corresponding 2d array color values \( gray level , 256 color value full 24 bit r g b values format also used \) work 512x512 1024x1024 resolution databases anybody access kind data , knows get data files , please respond news group , better email us directly amit math tau ac il \( amit \) , danny indigo bgu ac il \( daniel cohen \) course , names people help us get data cited paper , publications
cch coventry ac uk \( martin \) subject ftp site \( \) gifs nntp posting host cc sysh organization fire walk lines 11 looking around ftp sites cannot find one good gif files could someone please tell ftp sites posses goods gifs wide range please email address thanks martin
lioness maple circa ufl edu subject kubota vs e organization center instructional research computing activities lines 70 reply lioness ufcc ufl edu nntp posting host maple circa ufl edu people asking information kubota graphics workstations , info kenai denali vs e freedom text denali vs e freedom done h brown associates denali bears strong resemblance evans freedom graphics subsystem several aspects high level design products use parallel array processors geometric computations pixel router connect front end second array pixel processors result , denali overlap significantly performance functionality design teams also appear similar philosophies respect , , market penetration remain , however , several important differences kpc e products evans sutherland designed freedom high end developer 's dream system plenty performance potential flexibility favor , freedom configurations two sixteen floating point units , border range starts ends higher price performance levels denali freedom systems include large , fixed number pixel processors support broader variety color functions freedom design treats entire image memory general purpose memory , allowing developers allocate flexible basis number special purpose applications finally , e provided freedom flexible video integration features multimedia simulation applications note kpc working auxiliary board ntsc pal output require external video e programmable output features , however , remain much flexible kpc design team , contrast , made denali end user 's system entry version better performance range flexibility low end freedom configurations , come realistic mainstream price points denali need many modules uses deeper scan conversion pipeline support one , resulting better cost performance characteristics although products provide strong support 3d , imaging , volume rendering , kpc recognized users want even mix capabilities denali 's configuration flexibility allows customers effect purchase geometric pixel processing capabilities separately , upgrade separately needed companies implemented hardware texture mapping workstation price levels way attack sgi 's expensive systems products provide capability kpc supports point sampling interpolation textures hardware , provides software support higher tri linear interpolated method balance , however , denali overall capabilities e applications aside much affordable , kpc solutions deliver parallelism texture processing screen memory general graphics data storage implementing texture mapping transformation modules , e customers move quickly higher price levels obtain better performance kubota avoids problem linking frame buffer modules , providing lower cost , scalable solution hope helps , brian ps reprinted without permission full text , please contact kubota 408 727 8100
jk87377 lehtori cc tut fi \( kouhia juhana \) subject xv problems organization tampere university technology lines 47 distribution world nntp posting host cc tut fi article 1993apr27 nessie mcc ac uk c c lilley mcc ac uk writes 2 \) yes xv 8 bit program bug never claimed bug xv import 24 bit images 8 bits handy facility , bug never claimed bug would suggest colour editing 24 bit file \? would group 'related' colours edit together \? global changes could done unless software different much complicated want colour editing 24 bit image , need much powerfull software readily available commercially guess edited note away article posted many newsgroups wrote something making color modifications quickly 8bit quantized images saving image file process make modifications 24bit image makes sense , main use xv viewing images many changes image , keep modifications buffer making operations 24bit image , simplify operation list unnecessary operations lastly , jpeg compression algorithm applied image arbitrary bit depth , bug never claimed bug tried kept sure n't claim jpeg noting else compression algorithm , know jpeg \( misunderstood wrote done many places far \) also missed \( \) wrong xv however , wrote juhana kouhia
berkeley edu \( dan \) subject program organization university california , berkeley lines 5 distribution world nntp posting host berkeley edu keywords \? \? \? \? wondering somebody knows pd program converting graphic formats fig , pic , , tek , etc thanks , dan
adaptive cs nps navy mil \( zyda res acct \) subject human head modeling software organization naval postgraduate school , monterey lines 36 article taurus cs nps navy mil adaptive cs nps navy mil \( zyda res acct \) writes hi , ! interested facial animation want implement program area n't 3 information face looking 3d images face try getting cyberware demo via ftp contains 3d images face copyright status data \? restrictions regarding uses put \? kaveh kaveh kardan kardank ere umontreal ca kaveh , data included cyberware demo non proprietary , use like ask give us credit use research paper project send us results thanks , geo cyberware george cyberware labs dabro taurus cs nps navy mil
extro ucc su oz au \( geoffrey warren hicks \) subject colour transform red green colour blindness nntp posting host extro ucc su oz au organization sydney university computing service , sydney , nsw , australia lines 29 posted behalf craig access net account anyone provide colour space transform would emulate effects red green colour blindness \? quick look computer graphics literature results perhaps someone access medical information could help \? would like write program \( probably ppm filter \) allow previewing images check sufficient contract colour blind users colour blind , bit difficult ! please email replies summarise repost sufficient interest craig craig good , cheap , chief engineer , fast two picture start productions arthur c clarke email c ucc su oz au phone 61 2 959 educate n't legislate
zyeh caspian usc edu \( zhenghao yeh \) subject rgb hls hsv conversion routines wanted organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 12 distribution world nntp posting host caspian usc edu article sun4nl nl , bultman dgw rws nl \( g w bultman \) writes hi , i'm looking rgb \( cube \) hls \( double \) hsv \( cylinder \) conversion routines rgb hsv , miss hls rgb hsv checked foley 's book \? solutions chapter 13 yeh usc
spl ivem ucsd edu \( steve lamont \) subject rgb hvs , back organization university calif , san diego microscopy imaging resource lines 18 distribution world nntp posting host ivem ucsd edu article caspian usc edu zyeh caspian usc edu \( zhenghao yeh \) writes see foley , van dam , feiner , hughes , computer graphics principles practice , second edition people would read book , 75 percent questions would disappear overnight really think less 10 nah figure people would busy reading would n't time post \) \) \) spl steve lamont , sciviguy \( 619 \) 534 7968 spl szechuan ucsd edu san diego microscopy imaging resource uc san diego la jolla , ca 92093 0608 meet , , upper hell , foaming immortal blood farewell j , professor 's song
menchett unr edu \( peter j menchetti \) subject illustrator autotrace poorly \? organization university nevada , reno department computer science lines 8 use arts letters pc make use tracing preferences traces beautifully 's trick tracing 've traced entire cartoon images custom clip art , ca n't expect point image get like , takes little work \( cases lot work \) need trace drawing piece piece , put together 's kinda hard explain type , 're ever reno give little demonstration !
zyeh caspian usc edu \( zhenghao yeh \) subject rgb hvs , back organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 15 distribution world nntp posting host caspian usc edu little answer see foley , van dam , feiner , hughes , computer graphics principles practice , second edition people would read book , 75 percent questions would disappear overnight really think less 10 yeh usc
menchett unr edu \( peter j menchetti \) subject graphic design newsgroup \? \? \? organization university nevada , reno department computer science lines 3 newsgroup discusses graphic design pcs macs \? y'know like corel draw \? \?
hwstock snll llnl gov \( stockman w \) subject screen capture keywords capture organization sandia national laboratories lines 4 dos screen capture utility pd shareware work reliably vesa 6a 800x600 screens \? thanks , h w stockman , hwstock sandia llnl gov
menchett unr edu \( peter j menchetti \) subject arts letters graphics editor organization university nevada , reno department computer science lines 5 anyone group use program \? stacks pretty well corel draw , since n't cdrom , best buy maybe someone would interested trading tips tricks \?
ed cwis unomaha edu \( ed stastny \) subject ftp site \( \) gifs organization university nebraska omaha lines 18 cch coventry ac uk \( martin \) writes looking around ftp sites cannot find one good gif files could someone please tell ftp sites posses goods gifs wide range whatever , n't ftp sites listed sig wo n't like find really beg go ! please ! e ed stastny otis project , end process , sound news arts po bx 241113 ftp sunsite unc edu \( pub multimedia pictures otis \) omaha , ne 68124 1113 141 214 4 135 \( projects otis \) email ed cwis unomaha edu , ed sunsite unc edu
lilley v5 cgu mcc ac uk \( chris lilley \) subject colour transform red green colour blindness reply c c lilley mcc ac uk organization computer graphics unit , mcc lines 96 article extro ucc su oz au , extro ucc su oz au \( geoffrey warren hicks \) writes posted behalf craig access net account anyone provide colour space transform would emulate effects red green colour blindness \? quick look computer graphics literature results perhaps someone access medical information could help \? certainly reference follows bear mind least two conditions may called red green colour blind one , , caused lack major dysfunction l cones , respond best long wavelengths gives much reduced red green red violet discrimination also means reds look dimmer people normal vision , , due missing dysfunctional cones although also caused lack l cone difference signals retina also gives reduced red green discrimination red violet unaffected unlike , reds dimmer normal uniform chromaticity diagram shaped one see computer graphics books single confusion point type colour deficiency colours confused lie straight lines radiating point point u' 0 61 , v' 0 51 , close far red corner , point u' 4 75 , v' 1 31 note different experimental investigations literature give slightly different values depending precise details experimental setup , random errors , values quoted typical colours line seen , colour actually seen \? problem solved tests people one normal eye one affected eye shown axis type disorder onto colours collapse joins spectral locus \( edge \) line similar , joining convert colours normal vision simulated 1 \) plot colour uniform chromaticity diagram 2 \) construct line point appropriate confusion point 3 \) find intersection line appropriate axis line 4 \) new chromaticity best reference meyer , g w greenberg , p \( 1988 \) defective vision computer graphics , ieee computer graphics applications 8 \( 5 \) 28 40 also need decent reference basic colour science familiar cie xyz colour model uniform chromaticity scale diagram would like write program \( probably ppm filter \) allow previewing images check sufficient contract colour blind users colour blind , bit difficult ! yes certainly possible need red green blue monitor intend display images , chromaticity white point information measured , obtained manufacturer posted list monitor couple weeks ago procedure , pixel \( ! \) follows \( lookup tables might help \) \) convert rgb cie xyz simple 3 3 matrix multiplication monitor data b \) retaining component later , convert xyz chromaticity coordinates using u' 4x \( x 3z \) , v' 9y \( x 3z \) c \) find equation line step 2 \) find intersection step 3 e \) convert back xyz , using value step f \) ensure new colour displayed monitor , move along line xyz space towards neutral grey \( ie half way black white \) please email replies summarise repost sufficient interest done also posted rest us chris lilley technical author , itti computer graphics visualisation training project computer graphics unit , manchester computing centre , oxford road , manchester , uk m13 9pl internet c c lilley mcc ac uk voice 44 \( 0 \) 61 275 6045 fax 44 \( 0 \) 61 275 6040 janet c c lilley uk ac mcc
mizzou1 missouri edu \( robert woodward \) subject gif viewer lines 7 nntp posting host 128 206 12 104 organization physiology dept , university missouri lines 7 trouble viewing gif files system large sections n't show tried vpic running gateway 486 speedstar plus vga card nec multisync 16 inch monitor suggestions \? n't know robert woodward department physiology , university missouri , columbia , mo e mail mizzou1 missouri edu
abc wrc xerox com \( \) subject turning photographic images thermal print negatives organization xerox lines 24 article 1993apr28 seq uncwil edu hawks seq uncwil edu \( david hawks \) writes business end product photograph take damaged black whites , usually old , , repair hand present would like using computer trying find vendor convert computer stored images negatives thermal print customer want copy much possible like brand new original several crt film writers around , also might called matrix \? , pretty sure companies sell equipment might want talk company area presentation slides offers graphics services machines might point local vendor 's question money units essentially high res crts plus filter wheel plus 35mm camera computer hook david p currently shooting slides next talk one machines
ucbeh san uc edu subject viewing jpeg files distribution world organization univ cincinnati academic services lines 5 view jpeg files without special hardware \? lucy wilson , access services librarian college engineering , university cincinnati
metz une edu au \( ed campbell \) subject libraries text math graphics display \? keywords text math fonts display c code lines 8 nntp posting host metz une edu au anyone know c c libraries preparing displaying quickly pages mixed text , mathematical equations , graphics \( circles , ellipses , etc \) \? maths need tex quality , would useful scaleable main thing would able generate display quickly minimum set formatting code thanks , ed campbell
lilley v5 cgu mcc ac uk \( chris lilley \) subject rgb hvs , back lines 26 reply c c lilley mcc ac uk organization computer graphics unit , mcc article caspian usc edu , zyeh caspian usc edu \( zhenghao yeh \) writes see foley , van dam , feiner , hughes , computer graphics principles practice , second edition people would read book , 75 percent questions would disappear overnight really think less 10 alternatively , 75 questions cover 10 topics group making frequently asked 25 cover 90 topics , making rarely asked thus sore need answering chris lilley technical author , itti computer graphics visualisation training project computer graphics unit , manchester computing centre , oxford road , manchester , uk m13 9pl internet c c lilley mcc ac uk voice 44 \( 0 \) 61 275 6045 fax 44 \( 0 \) 61 275 6040 janet c c lilley uk ac mcc
lilley v5 cgu mcc ac uk \( chris lilley \) subject xv problems lines 69 reply c c lilley mcc ac uk organization computer graphics unit , mcc distribution inet article avt cc tut fi , jk87377 lehtori cc tut fi \( kouhia juhana \) writes article 1993apr27 nessie mcc ac uk c c lilley mcc ac uk writes moved bit wrote something making color modifications quickly 8bit quantized images saving image file process make modifications 24bit image makes sense , main use xv viewing images many changes image , keep modifications buffer making operations 24bit image , simplify operation list unnecessary operations think saying 24 bit image 8 bits many colours mapped onto single palette colour colour gets modified fairly arbitrary ways want apply modifications back 24 bit file , find colours mapped one palette colour ok could copying 24 bit file 32 bit file using extra 8 bits hold index entry done , need something , exactly \? apply difference rgb original modified palette entry colour group \? could generate colours rgb outside range 0 255 would also lead different parts smooth colour gradient mapped several different palette entries could interpolate full modification modification depending far colour palette entry however suspect would look rather odd summary , said previous posting still holds would suggest colour editing 24 bit file \? would group 'related' colours edit together \? global changes could done unless software different much complicated want colour editing 24 bit image , need much powerfull software readily available commercially words , edit 24 bit file need software built job mods onto xv going create problems solves bits seemed claiming bugs xv meant , \( misunderstood wrote done many places far \) yes , probably found collected digest format posting made little difficult understand precisely point sorry misunderstood also missed \( \) wrong xv however , wrote yes \( \? \) wrong xv \? chris lilley technical author , itti computer graphics visualisation training project computer graphics unit , manchester computing centre , oxford road , manchester , uk m13 9pl internet c c lilley mcc ac uk voice 44 \( 0 \) 61 275 6045 fax 44 \( 0 \) 61 275 6040 janet c c lilley uk ac mcc
uhura cc rochester edu \( ivan \) subject pc question 256 modes \? nntp posting host uhura cc rochester edu organization university rochester \( rochester , ny \) lines 17 hi , need know 256 color graphics mode allows multiple pages want something like mode \( 2 pages \) experimenting graphics calling bios borland turbo c feel like flying blind area , could use help give thanks , ivan ivan university rochester e mail uhura cc rochester edu
ing puc cl \( eid \) subject \? nntp posting host ing puc cl organization pontificia universidad catolica de chile x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 14 hello anybody help find program converts format named raw \( also known img \) gif format jpeg one 's desirable unix machine pc \( raw format n n image file contain tail n n characters , one referencing k n j pixel image , k j lies 0 n 1 \) ing puc cl
subject pbm \? vax1 mankato msus edu organization mankato state university lines 5 anyone know new version pbm soon far know current version jeff p \? \? \? \? jeffrey e
uxa ecn bgu edu \( richard \) subject ascii ansi pics organization educational computing network lines 10 nntp posting host uxa ecn bgu edu someone tell could find ansi ascii pics \? already found gopher ascii pics thanks richard uxa ecn bgu edu
krishna shearson com \( willy \) subject digital cameras article krishna distribution comp multimedia organization lehman brothers lines 16 i'm interested obtaining highest possible image capture ms windows application resulting image must go print high resolution name game i'm familiar \( unhappy \) composite video capture technology kind resolution get svhs signal \? rgb \( makes rgb cameras \) \? anyone experience digital cameras \? help would greatly appreciated william uucp ! uunet ! lehman com ! lehman brothers inet lehman com 388 greenwich st voice \( 212 \) 464 new york , n
steve keystone arch unsw edu au \( stephen peter \) subject windows bmp something wanted keywords bmp nntp posting host arch unsw edu au reply steve keystone arch unsw edu au organization faculty architecture , university new south wales lines 20 , i'm looking program convert bmp images gif , tga even ppm 'd prefer unix program , dos fine also 've seen alchemy \( dos \) windows image viewers save image formats , i'm converter viewer help would ! cheers stephen peter unsw edu au stephen peter steve keystone arch unsw edu au v school architecture , university new south wales , australia phone 61 2 fax 61 2 messages 61 2
ursa calvin edu \( edward ball \) subject ibm writing screen memory \( graphics \) nntp posting host ursa organization calvin college lines 27 anyone give information lead electronic information \( books i'm poor \) regarding programming standard graphics modes \? easy enough , i'm sure rest something planes something , writing ports like , n't know numbers anything 16 color modes , think i'm wrong , let know also , 320x200x256 one byte pixel 's easy enough , ways write screen , perhaps bytes time , something like \? course , 'd appreciate information mode reminds another question supervga modes work , generally , normal 16 256 color modes , mode numbers various cards different , methods writing screen different well \? thanks help give i'm developing screen class c find searching information oh , ralf brown 's interrupt list , given tons invaluable information already n't go screen programming details \( except read write pixel bios calls thanks edward ball , knight calvin edu
mad cwis unomaha edu \( andy booth \) subject revolt otis project organization university nebraska omaha lines 103 otis project presents revolt first continuing series collaborative art initiatives designed exploit series structured art manipulation projects attempt stretch across network encouraging use electronic mail , fax , video , photography , scanned conventional art even sound create multi artist still visuals gif jpg formats technical levels welcome revolt structured simply three stages production first stage consist participants creating one still work starter piece two pants , turn , manipulate first stage base images due sunday , may 23rd , 1993 , midnight central daylight time stage two begin may 24th images sent another \( arbitrarily chosen \) participant manipulations anyway see fit purely digital artists , may consist filtering image favorite paint program analog artists , may well printing hardcopy image adding part pen , pencil white scan image transferred third stage artist second stage works due midnight sunday , may 30th stage three finishing stage begin may artists think takes finish image 've given using whatever technique see worthy images due june 6th , midnight involved participate stage creation join , send email mail following info name email address mail address scanner access \? \( color grey none \) printer access \? \( laser postscript inkjet color dot \) computer access \? \( mac ibm pc sun amiga atari next \) output format \? \( tiff targa gif jpeg pict postscript fax photocopy pcx windows bitmap \) graphics level \? \( 8bit 16bit 24bit \? \) ftp access \? time limitations \? address information email mad cwis unomaha edu \( andrew booth , project manager \) \( include revolt subject line \) mail otis project revolt po bx 241113 omaha , ne 68124 1113 remember , starter images due sunday , may 23rd deposit either ftp sites sunsite unc edu \( pub multimedia pictures otis incoming \) 141 214 4 135 \( projects otis incoming \) send uuencoded images us via email send address arrange fax exchange n't get starter image , wo n't able participate phase ii \( mid june \) best accomodate facilitate image exchange technologically impaired n't access scanner , need one , 'll try help need image printed sent , let us know \( send sase anticipate \) additional information available following suggestions use uncommon \( video stills , electronic imaging sound \) fax availability times copyright considerations \( appropriation \) image conversion otis project general andy booth ever aliens \? ever see elvis po bx 241113 local 7 11 \? would like hear omaha , ne 68124 1113 paranormal experiences
bill solaria \( bill \) subject rgb hvs , back reply bill solaria hac com lines 83 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 remco \( htsa aha nl \) wrote little question need convert rgb coded \( red green blue \) colors hvs coded \( hue value \) colors anyone know formulas use \? lets see right hsv hsl none hls hopefully , hvs transposition hsv , yet another color model following code hsv \( hsl \) coding \( n't tried yet \) \( thanks bultman dgw rws nl \) another possibility mirrors msdos graphics zip wuarchive wustl edu bill bill solaria hac com following code starbase \( hp \) manual \( coordinates 0 1 interval \) hsl rgb \( hue , saturation , luminosity , red , green , blue \) float hue , saturation , luminosity input hsl float red , green , blue output rgb float , lx , ly , lz hue 6 hue hue \( int \) hue lx luminosity \( 1 saturation \) ly luminosity \( 1 saturation \) lz luminosity \( 1 saturation \( 1 \) \) switch \( \( int \) hue \) case 0 case 6 red luminosity green lz blue lx break case 1 red ly green luminosity blue lx break case 2 red lx green luminosity blue lz break case 3 red lx green ly blue luminosity break case 4 red lz green lx blue luminosity break case 5 red luminosity green lx blue ly break rgb hsl \( red , green , blue , hue , saturation , luminosity \) define max \( , b , c \) \( \( b \? b \) c \? \( b \? b \) c \) define min \( , b , c \) \( \( b \? b \) c \? \( b \? b \) c \) float red , green , blue input rgb float hue , saturation , luminosity output hsl float x , , , temporary values hue 0 0 saturation 1 0 luminosity max \( red , green , blue \) x min \( red , green , blue \) \( luminosity ! 0 0 \) calculate necessary saturation \( luminosity x \) luminosity \( saturation ! 0 0 \) calculate necessary \( luminosity red \) \( luminosity x \) \( luminosity green \) \( luminosity x \) \( luminosity blue \) \( luminosity x \) \( red luminosity \) hue \( green x \? 5 1 \) else \( green luminosity \) hue \( blue x \? 1 3 \) else hue \( red x \? 3 5 \) hue 6
ph14 cunixb cc columbia edu \( pei hsieh \) subject help needed dxf iff nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu organization columbia university lines 11 hi sorry faq , conversion utilities available autodesk dxf amiga iff format \? checked comp graphics faq number sites , far banana please e mail thanks pei hsieh \( \) \( \) e mail ph14 cunixb cc columbia edu 's thing small job small fees anon , architect
uccs edu \( kevin \) subject looking polygon organization university colorado colorado springs lines 8 distribution world nntp posting host uccs edu anyone know find code would take concave polygons break set convex polygons \? thanks , kevin uccs edu
iastate edu \( n rajesh \) subject looking job software engineer keywords c c , gui , xvt , operating systems , computer networking reply iastate edu \( n rajesh \) organization iowa state university lines 194 sure supposed post mail however last year , involved developing graphical user interface \( gui \) applications , enjoyed personally part news group got interesting information helped work posting resuming hoping people working area would make time look hall , isu , ames , ia 50011 \( 515 \) 294 1525 april 29 , 1992 dear prospective employer seeking employment software engineer interests software design development , utilize experience hardware , c c programming , graphical user interface \( gui \) , operating systems computer networking received engineering \( \) degree electronics engineering 1990 degree electrical engineering dec 1992 iowa state university currently enrolled computer engineering iowa state university masters program , research assistant since jan 1991 , published three papers including one ieee transactions magnetics papers reflection quality research ability learn new concepts quickly involved many projects involving software developments extensive experience programming c , c , fortran assembly level also familiar operating systems like unix , ultrix ms dos familiar motif x programming currently , research assistant , involved graphical user interface \( gui \) design using gui toolkit xvt experiences also include areas operating systems computer networks , course work projects involved study design development internals operating system also involved many tcp ip programming projects computer networking college learnt importance clear concise communication also learned lot time management program maintained 3 70 grade average , worked 20 hours per week enjoyed involved many extra activities software experiences along hardware background \( electronics engineering \) would helpful career goals software engineer request qualifications may kindly reviewed would like interview discuss employment needs career goals eager hear soon sincerely n rajesh \( iastate edu \) resume n rajesh work residence 305 isu , hall , isu ames , ia 50011 ames , ia 50011 \( 515 \) 294 1525 e mail iastate edu objective obtain challenging position software engineer involving software design development , utilize experience hardware , c c programming , graphical user interface \( gui \) , operating systems computer networking education currently enrolled computer engineering , iowa state university , ames , iowa 50011 electrical engineering , iowa state university , ames , iowa 50011 \( dec 1992 \) gpa major 3 8 4 0 overall 3 7 4 0 thesis probability detection \( pod \) models eddy current evaluation \( nde \) methods \( project funded federal aviation administration \( faa \) \) b e electronics engineering , university , , india \( jan 1990 \) publications n rajesh , l udpa udpa , numerical model based approach estimating probability detection nde applications , ieee transactions magnetics , vol 29 , 2 , march 1993 n rajesh , l udpa udpa , estimation eddy current probability detection using 3d finite element model , presented 19th annual review progress quantitative evaluation , san diego , california \( jul 1992 \) n rajesh , l udpa , udpa n , probability detection models eddy current nde methods , presented 18th annual review progress quantitative evaluation , brunswick , \( jul 1991 \) relevant operating systems electronic devices circuits course computer network architecture pulse digital circuits work advanced computer communications artificial neural networks introduction supercomputing pattern recognition computer digital image processing organization digital signal processing computer technology integrated circuits design programming projects implementation fork system call operating system also involved implementation cpu scheduling algorithm taking consideration aging processes project involved study design development internals operating system design development interrupt driven keyboard driver project involved thorough understanding device drivers design development unix like tree structured directory allows creation subdirectories organization files accordingly project included implementation routines mkdir , , cd , ls rm support directory structure analysis methods congestion control computer networks implementation ford routing algorithm distributed network communication network nodes based udp project involved programming c simulation various digital logic functional units starting basic gates registers , counters , , , arithmetic logic unit \( alu \) project involved extensive c programming unix environment work research assistant , center nde , iowa state university , ames , experience ia 50011 \( aug 1992 present \) work involves development applications using graphical user interface \( gui \) toolkits familiar programming motif x environment recent work involves development gui applications , c , using portable gui toolkit xvt \( project supported nist \( national institute standards technology \) \) research assistant , center nde , iowa state university , ames , ia 50011 \( jan 1991 aug 1992 \) work involved developing software modeling electromagnetic nde techniques eddy current method also involved optimization code parallel computer cray \( project supported faa involved working close contact aircraft industry \( boeing \) \) engineer , indian telephone industries , india work involved design development microprocessor \( \) based programmable telephone used cordless telephones involved programming microprocessor control actions relays telephone circuit \( jan nov 1989 \) computer languages c , c , fortran , assembly level skills software motif x , xvt , computer graphics \( hoops \) , tcp ip programming , image processing utilities , sdrc ideas , autocad operating systems unix , , ultrix , ms dos systems dec series , hp sun workstations , macintosh , stellar parallel systems cray , ibm , , n cube honours iowa state university graduate college scholarship activities \( jan 1991 present \) ranked 42 20 , 000 students engineering entrance examination ensuring full scholarship , state , pursue 's degree current member ieee references available upon request
ez019654 othello ucdavis edu \( victoria milliron \) subject intel 's pci standard \? \? \? organization university california , davis x newsreader tin 1 1 pl3 lines 8 read somewhere genie intel coming graphics standard called pci , would vesa standards rumor , substance y'all heard standard please e mail might obtain info thanks advance vamilliron othello ucd edu
phillip edu au subject pov ray vax computer \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? reply phillip edu au organization rmit , campus , victoria , australia lines 13 hi , i'm using pov ray ibm compatible home , would like run things work vax computer believe version source code pov ray vax specific , i'm sure find \( 've looked several sites ibmpc version found \) anyone help \? thanks advance , ross rmit , melbourne , australia internet address , phillip edu au \( clever yet , busy playing pov ray \)
brad utkvx utk edu \( , eric bradley \) subject news software vax vms vnews 1 41 organization university tennessee computing center lines 3 anybody know get graphics work shop \? brad utkvx utk edu
jk87377 lehtori cc tut fi \( kouhia juhana \) subject xv problems organization tampere university technology lines 100 distribution world nntp posting host cc tut fi article 1993apr29 nessie mcc ac uk c c lilley mcc ac uk writes article avt cc tut fi , jk87377 lehtori cc tut fi \( kouhia juhana \) writes wrote something making color modifications quickly 8bit quantized images saving image file process make modifications 24bit image makes sense , main use xv viewing images many changes image , keep modifications buffer making operations 24bit image , simplify operation list unnecessary operations think saying 24 bit image 8 bits many colours mapped onto single palette colour colour gets modified fairly arbitrary ways want apply modifications back 24 bit file , find colours mapped one palette colour suppose n't know discussed discussed error \( \) xv 2 21 shows images 8bit , suggestion works perfectly far seen colormap editing window xv , must colormap anyway problems present exist anyway , n't tried solve , would make problems programs first place gamma color corrections easily done 24bit image presented 's need make tricks 8bit quantized image back 24 bit image would suggest colour editing 24 bit file \? would group 'related' colours edit together \? global changes could done unless software different much complicated ok , 're writing situation user want edit images 24bit user want edit individual colors questions , way , jumps discussion bit solution n't work , 's colormap real 24bit image see , user see 24bit image going back 8bit silly changing individual colors 8bit quantized rasterized image changing individual colors colormap useless cases image quantized rasterized small change may make serious errors anywhere image xv allows feature , n't recommend use mentioned type images moreover , xv paint program make global changes full 24bit xv , changing individual colors sounds like paint program job person 8bit screen , 's need tricks get original 24bit image modified user n't see full 24bit image , 's need make approximations possible modify individual colors individual pixels pixel groups \( image rasterized \) select color , could cursor window shows true color image cursor window area selecting individual color possible ok , n't thought much 24bit painting programs , never seen good view planned make mention 24bit painting program 8bit screen yes \( \? \) wrong xv \? saved 8bit quantized rasterized images 24bit jpegs jpeg designed also , human expect 24bit saved 24bit image say , person would like crop part image save , expected image still , xv designed without thinking human interface human expect program work design error heard xv designed first 8bit images files , good idea take full 24bit images without making major change original design , even screen images 8bit , processed images saved images could 24bit easily , instead 8bit anybody make note yes , may well make lift means lift goes means lift goes , put note design solution manuals however , even manuals tells correct situation , n't solve problem \( americans lift example \) well , text may bit hard reading , hopefully read juhana kouhia
ricky vnet ibm com \( rick turner \) subject \? disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host ibm com organization ibm uk labs lines 5 use pbm 's convert three raw \( r , g , b \) files pgm format use convert pgm files composite ppm file , feed cjpeg compression slow , , work rick
finn bsc \( finn chr \) subject help needed dxf iff organization bergen scientific centre , bergen , norway lines 30 article 1993apr30 news columbia edu ph14 cunixb cc columbia edu \( pei hsieh \) writes hi sorry faq , conversion utilities available autodesk dxf amiga iff format \? checked comp graphics faq number sites , far banana please e mail thanks pei hsieh \( \) \( \) e mail ph14 cunixb cc columbia edu 's thing small job small fees anon , architect pei help directly width problem , may intermediate roads take get iff using converter take iges , iif , dxf iges , iges , ii iges , iif , iif , ii iif dxf iif ibm iges format may converters handle iges iff hope help way converter part iges processor 6000 package ibm runs rs 6000 aix best regard finn chr ibm bergen environmental sciences solutions centre e mail finn bsc
wolfram informatik th darmstadt de \( wolfram \) subject xv dos 's problem \? organization tu darmstadt lines 31 distribution world nntp posting host informatik th darmstadt de downloaded file zip site someone posted contained files cjpeg exe djpeg exe xv exe tried run , said could n't run go32 exe 's matter \? files missing zip \? go32 exe \? help appreciated bye , wolfram wolfram e mail wolfram informatik th darmstadt de cu , le ! yes , 's right , u 8 \) \)
informatik uni tuebingen de \( juergen \) subject alpha kubota graphic vs sgi organization zdv uni tuebingen lines 16 nntp posting host informatik uni tuebingen de experience porting gl program alpha workstation kubota 's denali 3d graphic problems \? real graphic performance like sgi r4000 indigo \? juergen universitaet tuebingen , office 49 0 \( \) 29 auf der 10 , c9 fax 49 0 \( \) 29 w 7400 tuebingen , germany email informatik uni tuebingen de
x mek hydrox enet dec com comp graphics subject tiff complexity organization e c c x cc johnl iecc cambridge us \( john r levine \) lines 34 article enet gw pa dec com write anyone thinks tiff complex n't dealt cgm , asn 1 , cda , dca , sgml , one number successful file format people seem perfectly capable dealing others well , yeah , unlike tiff substantially encode rectangular bitmaps others hardly trouble free hear quite common cgm implementations interoperate annoying thing tiff along 50 useful options , 100 stupid options egregious example rather picking byte order bit order using consistently tiff files , byte bit order options tiff readers machines , matter natural byte order , prepared byte swapping four slightly different fax formats , one would adequate rgb images stored pixel component , complexity without function , etc , etc also note tiff doc says experiments show lzw reliably compresses well better fax formats , suggesting none fax formats really useful 's worse , lot formats n't even implemented well , e g , lzw limits code words 12 bits , 14 16 bits would provided substantially better compression lzw method compresses bytes rather pixels absolute worst thing tiff vendor register proprietary tiff codes formats without even publicly documenting means way write tiff reader reliably read incoming tiff files standard regards , john levine , johnl iecc cambridge us , spdcc ima world ! iecc ! johnl
rs6000 cmp ilstu edu \( jean \) subject help need 24 bits viewer organization illinois state university keywords 24 bit lines 23 article 1993apr29 labtam labtam oz au graeme labtam labtam oz u \( graeme gill \) writes article seti inria fr , deniaud cartoon inria fr \( gilles deniaud \) writ es hi , i'm looking program able display 24 bits images using sun sparc equipped parallax graphics board running x11 xli , xloadimage imagemagick export lcs mit edu 18 24 0 12 contrib xv 3 0 \( shareware \) supports 24 bit displays , lots improvements earlier versions definitely worth checking \( also export \) jean jean computer science , illinois state university e mail ilstu edu
rpi edu \( \) subject looking brain cad nntp posting host rpi edu reply rpi edu organization rensselaer polytechnic institute , troy , ny lines 7 rpi student looking brain cad \( dxf , cad , iges , cgm , etc \) picture \( gif , jpg , ras , etc \) format animation demonstration knows location please reply e mail rpi edu thank advance ,
rued daimi aau dk \( thomas rued j \) subject sci files sco files organization daimi computer science department , aarhus university , denmark lines 7 hello ! week ago guy asked sco file well researched bit another rix file sci files 320x200 files sco files 1024x768 files ! alle formats \( 800x600 , 640x480 \) also called something like sc \( character \) regards rued
dl ac uk \( g coulter , office , extension , \) subject real 3d organization daresbury laboratory , uk lines 32 distribution world reply dl ac uk nntp posting host dl ac uk article 2965 dsv su se , matt dah dsv su se \( mattias \) writes \( otol fi \) wrote earlier today read ad real 3d animation ray tracing software looked convincing yes , looks like good indeed however , n't amiga began wonder , 's pc version nope hear maybe ports pipeline somewhere , possibly unix sure though please put straight gary work serc daresbury lab internet g coulter daresbury ac uk uni university hardware a2000 000 20 a4000 040 120 regards email mattias matt dah dsv su se love
nosubdomain nodomain \( roland \) subject tom gaskins pexlib vs phigs programming manuals \( o'reilly \) reply igd fhg de organization zentrum fuer , 6100 darmstadt , germany lines 33 article neuro usc edu , merlin neuro usc edu \( merlin \) writes could someone explain difference tom two books pexlib programming manual phigs programming manual would want buy one book vs book \? 80386 pexlib phigs \( comes mit pex explained phigs programming manual \) different api 's pex protocol , extension x protocol depends , go use advantage phigs platforms \( ibm graphigs , \) standardized structuring 3d objects advantage pexlib sometimes faster easier programming immediate mode graphics , pex exactly mapping phigs \( \) ooo \( \) ooo roland computer email 7 graphics igd fhg de 6100 darmstadt center phone germany \( \) 49 6151 space intentionally left blank
pitt edu \( william b \) subject intel 's pci standard \? \? \? organization university pittsburgh lines 7 vamilliron yes , intel 's pci \( another \) local bus standard , used graphics , although believe local buses used things , far know , though , pci local bus would compete vesa local bus , vesa graphics standard , others enlightened might able shed light matter
helios nd edu \( keith \) subject wanted shareware graphics display program dos distribution usa organization university notre dame , notre dame lines 16 need graphics display program take parameter name file displayed , display image quit graphics display programs come menu first program going run within another program lots memory vga color graphics format anyone heard beast \? keith keith notre dame ,
mack uit \( tor berger \) subject 8th lines 306 organization university tromsoe invitation 8th 8th scandinavian conference image analysis arranged norwegian society image processing pattern recognition \( \) sponsored international association pattern recognition \( \) conference held tromsoe 25th 28th may 1993 tromsoe , located latitude 69 degrees n , northern norway 's centre administration education programme scientific programme runs four days includes 6 invited speakers , 29 sessions three parallel tracks 127 contributed papers 4 poster sessions 44 contributions conference covers following topics image processing analysis pattern recognition computer vision parallel algorithms architectures neural nets matching methods image compression remote sensing medical biological applications industrial applications conference language official language conference english invited talks speakers segmentation range images via data fusion morphological professor ralph gonzalez university tennessee , knoxville object recognition using range images professor k michigan state university experiments mobile robot navigation range imaging dr judd jones oak ridge national laboratory image compression professor tor university trondheim combining evidence dictionary based probabilistic relaxation professor j university surrey matching methods professor polytechnic university workshop connection conference , workshop contextual methods pattern recognition arranged monday 24th information concerning workshop contact , chairman , univ bergen , n 5000 bergen , norway phone 47 5 20 63 34 fax 47 5 20 63 60 e mail cc uib registration information registration fee 4000 nok fee covers proceedings , entrance oral poster sessions , exhibition , coffee breaks , get together party , reception banquet fees accompanying persons presented registration form payments must made payable norwegian \( nok \) swift bank giro service bank account 6420 05 , sas conference , bank og \( private accepted \) following credit cards visa , mastercard , , , access , american express please note payment swift bank giro service made abroad , please add banking fee nok 60 , please remember state 8scia name money transfers ! registration information conference available four days conference registration information may 24th , 1600 2000 , sas hotel may 25th 28th , university exhibition exhibition relevant literature arranged publishers invited exhibit products visit local companies institutions involved field \( mostly remote sensing \) arranged accommodation reservation hotel accommodation made registration form 8scia conference sas , att , provide hotel accommodation participants social events monday , may 24th get together party \( included conference fee delegates , nok 150 , accompanying persons \) tuesday , may 25th fishing trip tour last 5 6 hours hopefully midnight sun visit us board boat music , food drink choice bring fishing rods possible fish prepared board \( nok 400 , \) spouse programme visit cable car 420 meters sea level , visit arctic cathedral , visit tromsoe museum \( nok 205 , \) wednesday , may 26th due cancellation flight arrange visit \( nok 350 , including beer food \) spouse programme visit surroundings tromsoe \( nok 170 , \) thursday , may 27th banquet \( included conference fee delegates , accompanying persons nok 500 , \) spouse programme visit northern lights planetarium polar museum \( nok 180 , \) spouse programs need minimum 15 participants arranged post conference tours visit cape also arranged information social program post conference tours see registration form information included registration form weather dress weather tromsoe late may everything 24 hour sunshine maximum temperature 20 degrees celsius temperatures freezing therefore recommended bring warmer clothes local information population approximately 50 000 tromsoe take part many activities midnight sun late night fun international restaurants bars afternoon local beer world 's brewery also recommended 8th scandinavian conference image analysis \( 8scia \) held university campus world 's university conference buses going campus within walking distances hotels detailed information locations transport available conference hotels travel information tromsoe airport 7 8 minutes drive centre tromsoe travelling distance oslo 1 hr 40 minutes sas conference support tromsoe offers services conference addition standard terms full reduced fare tickets europe overseas , \( reduced fares require stay scandinavia night saturday sunday \) , offer additional conference fares sas flights sas destinations within scandinavia , reduced fares norwegian domestic flights want make use service please contact conference conference sas tromsoe att p box 437 n 9001 tromsoe norway phone 47 83 10 700 fax 47 83 10 701 note reduced fares obtained flights scandinavia n't stay night saturday sunday \( front conference \) hand n't stay night tromso obtain reduced fares within scandinavia \( sas flights \) cut registration form scandinavian conference image analysis tromso , norway , may 25th 28th 1993 please use block letters type , fill one form completed registration form accompanying person attached registration form delegate mr mrs first name surname company institution title mailing address postal code country telephone telefax delegate accompanying person \( please tick right category \) workshop contextual methods pattern recognition , monday , may 24th conference fee , delegates nok 4000 , social events \( please tick participating ! \) get together party , monday 24th \( included conference fee delegates \) accompanying person nok 150 , spouse programme , tuesday , may 25th nok 205 , spouse programme , wednesday , may 26th nok 170 , spouse programme , thursday , may 27th nok 180 , boat trip , tuesday , may 25th nok 400 , banquet , thursday , may 27th \( included conference fee delegates \) accompanying person nok 500 , visit , wednesday , may 26th nok 350 , post conference tour , nok 895 , post conference tour , north cape nok , \( need minimum number participants accomplish tours \) total amount participation nok payment payment made swift bank giro service bank account 6420 05 , sas conference , bank og , 80 , n 9000 tromso , norway \( private accepted \) credit card visa mastercard access american express account number expiration date signature please note payment swift bank giro service made abroad , please add banking fee nok 60 , please remember state 8scia name money transfers ! accomodation \( payment made upon arrival \) \( weekend friday sunday \) deadline cancellation hotel room 24 hours arrival would like us book accomodation tromso , please fill date arrival date departure sas royal hotel single 1190 , double , \( weekend 750 , \) \( weekend 900 , \) grand nordic hotel single 1015 , double , \( weekend 760 , \) \( weekend 880 , \) home hotel single 975 , double , saga hotel single 870 , double 1045 , polar hotel single 680 , double 800 , \( weekend 450 , \) \( weekend 550 , \) tromso hotel single 680 , double 800 , \( weekend 450 , \) \( weekend 550 , \) pension single 330 , double 410 , triple 480 , hotel single 300 , double 400 , triple 500 , private accomodation single 150 , double 200 , arrange accomodation first choice available , wish stay sas conference support tromso offers services conference addition standard terms full reduced fare tickets europe overseas , \( reduced fares require stay scandinavia night saturday sunday \) , offer additional conference fares sas flights sas destinations within scandinavia , reduced fares norwegian domestic flights want make use service please fill following point departure return date departure date return arrange \( please tick ! \) information , please contact kjell , 8scia local chair , information technology ltd , n tromso , norway telephone 47 83 telefax 47 83 e mail uit please forward registration form sas tromso , att p box 437 , n 9001 tromso , norway , telephone 47 83 telefax 47 83 date signature
beck irzr17 inf tu dresden de \( andre beck \) subject pov ray vax computer \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? organization dept computer science , tu dresden , germany lines 15 distribution world reply andre beck irs inf tu dresden de nntp posting host irzr17 inf tu dresden de get generic version \( unix vms \) build imho vms com file build supplied distribution comes tar z either uncompress tar vms unix machine handy usually wo n't find ibm pc specific archives , better ones \) brain inside andre' beck \( abpsoft \) mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de
beck irzr17 inf tu dresden de \( andre beck \) subject xv problems organization dept computer science , tu dresden , germany lines 11 distribution world reply andre beck irs inf tu dresden de nntp posting host irzr17 inf tu dresden de oops , hell crosspost \? ! look onto xv 3 00 saying anything 's power brain inside andre' beck \( abpsoft \) mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de
casbah acns nwu edu \( daniel \) subject picture ascii conversion \? nntp posting host casbah acns nwu edu organization northwestern university , evanston il lines 10 wondering anyone ever seen heard utility converts type image format \( gif , tiff , pcx , bmp , jpeg , etc \) ascii representation seen art ascii format , never able find author program may converted data picture format help leads would great thanks advance danny casbah acns nwu edu
harvey oasys dt navy mil \( betty harvey \) subject arts letters graphics editor reply harvey oasys dt navy mil \( betty harvey \) organization carderock division , nswc , bethesda , md lines 28 comp graphics , menchett unr edu \( peter j menchetti \) writes anyone group use program \? stacks pretty well corel draw , since n't cdrom , best buy maybe someone would interested trading tips tricks \? yes , arts letters coreldraw personally like arts letters better things like arts letters coreldraw n't vice versa n't found perfect graphics program everything yet favorite feature coreldraw imports alot different formats arts letters like thousands clipart available arts letters however , find looking book referencing number annoying one major problems n't programs available market deprived \) betty harvey harvey oasys dt navy mil david taylor model basin adp , networking communication assessment carderock division branch naval surface warfare code 1221 center bethesda , md 20084 5000 , cd , nswc \( 301 \) 227 fax \( 301 \) 227
smt 6 ingr com \( joe \) subject software development libs old targa 16 boards organization intergraph lines 17 computer aided visual inspection systems use old targa 16 board set \( 2 cards \) display images color ccd camera color monitor , providing option overlay text crosshair image capture manipulation performed , display would like know still source development libraries would allow embed commands software enable camera , draw , print text , etc 'll glad pay commercially available e mail possible joe cim manager intergraph corporation manufacturing integration huntsville , al 35894
roy mchip00 med nyu edu \( roy smith \) subject sgi sales practices \( crimson \( kubota announcement \? \) \) organization new york university , school medicine lines 26 nntp posting host mchip00 med nyu edu olson anchor esd sgi com \( dave olson \) writes surely n't expect system buy five year period constantly upgradable entire five year period \? 's sort interesting whole thread much common similar threads groups dealing vendor 's hardware currently deal basically hardware 3 vendors apple , dec , sgi thus tend monitor groups vendor 's hardware currently , seems like sgi customers pissed sgi dropping support personal iris , dec customers pissed dec dropping mips support favor new alpha boxes , apple customers seem get pissed every time new mac introduced 's faster cheaper one bought used sun customer years ago , remember people pissed sun leaving 386 680x0 customers cold sparc came along 's really interesting tell , mis folks basement es 9000 n't seem pissed ibm \? idea either ibm really take care customers better , customers brainwashed better smaller vendors roy smith roy nyu edu project , department microbiology , coles 202 nyu school medicine , 550 first avenue , new york , ny 10016 never happened bart simpson
mike mik uky edu \( mike mattone \) subject lcd vga display nntp posting host mik uky edu organization university kentucky , dept math sciences lines 43 please help ibm compatible notebook computer lcd vga screen working morning , screen started flicker little , thought odd since use surge protector computer peripherals second stopped left room several minutes , returned , screen completely dim , blank , dim contrast slider still worked could adjust could faintly make screen brightness slider absolutely effect plugged time \( e , using battery \) still tried switching battery , changing power saver features , etc , etc , avail anyone else experienced anything like \? means need replace screen guess 'll thought death lcd screen would little less dramatic eventually happened n't want take repaired asked net already know 'll say yep , gotta replaced 's gonna cost \? \? \? 've computer 21 months reasonable life cycle lcd display \? oh , guess ought give specifics brand \( reputable company \? \) , 's 386sx 20 mhz forget model number exactly ticked write coming work today anyone help , please give advice might i'm opposed replaced , 'd rather 's absolutely necessary would n't mind , please e mail mike mik uky edu 'd rather post 'll checking back couple days btw , answer question already faq somewhere , feel free flame away would ask also include location name faq n't mind thanks advance help mike mattone \( mike mik uky edu \)
lioness maple circa ufl edu subject sgi sales practices \( crimson \( kubota announcement \? \) \) organization center instructional research computing activities lines 26 reply lioness ufcc ufl edu nntp posting host maple circa ufl edu article calvin nyu edu , roy mchip00 med nyu edu \( roy smith \) writes 's really interesting tell , mis folks basement es 9000 n't seem pissed ibm \? idea either ibm really take care customers better , customers brainwashed better smaller vendors , mis folks infinite budgets death , also get parts budget allocated upgrades , maintenance , new purchases , lot ibm mainframe purchases actually software basically , engineers tight budgets , e designers company , bitch moan drop 15 , 000 sparc 1 see faster machine appear year later mis types upgrade every 5 10 years , costs depreciated longer period , budget office justifies expense actually use machines accounting , payroll , etc , budget office dependant engineers reason like payroll accounts , 'd sure hell see every engineer new cray desktop every year \) brian
quartz ufl edu \( bill \) subject trees organization uf ee department lines 7 distribution world nntp posting host ufl edu keywords tree growth i'm working senior project uf \( florida \) project requires trees i'm interested either psuedo real code anything help perhaps good books subject could help mail reach quartz ufl edu thanks bill
lilley v5 cgu mcc ac uk \( chris lilley \) subject oh make mind ! ! \( xv problems \) lines 220 reply c c lilley mcc ac uk organization computer graphics unit , mcc article cc tut fi , jk87377 lehtori cc tut fi \( kouhia juhana \) writes article 1993apr29 nessie mcc ac uk c c lilley mcc ac uk writes article avt cc tut fi , jk87377 lehtori cc tut fi \( kouhia juhana \) writes wrote something making color modifications quickly 8bit quantized images saving image file process make modifications 24bit image makes sense , main use xv viewing images many changes image , keep modifications buffer making operations 24bit image , simplify operation list unnecessary operations think saying 24 bit image 8 bits many colours mapped onto single palette colour colour gets modified fairly arbitrary ways want apply modifications back 24 bit file , find colours mapped one palette colour suppose n't know discussed discussed error \( \) xv 2 21 shows images 8bit , suggestion works perfectly look consistent first post something seems suggest see xv 8 bit program sort error post bug , meant like post say bug , never said , misunderstood etc saying discussed error \( \) xv 2 21 shows images 8bit , would make mind claiming would make discussion lot easier far seen colormap editing window xv , must colormap anyway problems present exist anyway , n't tried solve , would make problems programs first place eh \? sorry , n't understand saying aware english native language tried hard fathom meaning , paragraph defeats gamma color corrections easily done 24bit image presented 's need make tricks 8bit quantized image back 24 bit image yes originally said , global changes easily possible statement contradicts said earlier wrote something making color modifications quickly 8bit quantized images saving image file process make modifications 24bit image would suggest colour editing 24 bit file \? would group 'related' colours edit together \? global changes could done unless software different much complicated ok , 're writing situation user want edit images 24bit user want edit individual colors questions , way , jumps discussion bit n't think actually talking loading 24 bit image xv \( \) , manipulating colours colour editor , applying changes 24 bit file exit xv xv lets edit individual colours sudden jumping topic \? solution n't work , 's colormap real 24bit image yes aware colourmap 24 bit file ! ! see , user see 24bit image going back 8bit silly understand statement supposed mean changing individual colors 8bit quantized rasterized image changing individual colors colormap useless cases image quantized rasterized small change may make serious errors anywhere image \? \? \? saying \? \? \? xv allows feature , n't recommend use mentioned type images ah ! see problem ! first want extend xv allow editing 8 bit 24 bit images point problems saying problem , personally , happen use parts program cause problem ! ! moreover , xv paint program make global changes sure saying certainly one make local changes full 24bit xv , changing individual colors sounds like paint program job person 8bit screen , 's need tricks get original 24bit image modified user n't see full 24bit image , 's need make approximations possible modify individual colors individual pixels pixel groups \( image rasterized \) select color , could cursor window shows true color image cursor window area selecting individual color possible yes one possible approach would find program took approach clumsy , however ok , n't thought much 24bit painting programs , never seen good view planned make mention 24bit painting program 8bit screen well agree thought much n't seem consistent point make contradict one post next ok , days perhaps step back think one yes \( \? \) wrong xv \? saved 8bit quantized rasterized images 24bit jpegs jpeg designed said last post , jpeg compression algorithm way saving disk space trading quality compression fail see problem proposed workable alternatives also , human expect 24bit saved 24bit image speak person met spoken , 24 bit image 8 bits , expects process somehow reverse file saved keeping made 8 bit image palette perhaps singular \? say , person would like crop part image save , expected image still look , next time import 24 bit image xv look carefully main control panel tells many colours allocated 8 bit image xv makes abundantly clear editing original 24 bit file person claims confusing , xv designed without thinking human interface human expect program work design error design error bug \? \) read lips xv program viewing modifying 8 bit images lets import images shows , would say , good deal thought human interface everyone else seems use happily purpose designed makes false claims heard xv designed first 8bit images files , good idea take full 24bit images without making major change original design would come solid , logical , well argued lucid description precisely proposed extensions would work , feel free post far , done , even screen images 8bit , processed images saved images could 24bit easily , instead 8bit argh ! ! , comment like ok , go ahead code easy alternatively , look terms 'non reversible anybody make note yes , may well make lift means lift goes means lift goes , put note design solution manuals however , even manuals tells correct situation , n't solve problem \( americans lift example \) think bit actually saying , got lift \( elevator , states \) \) mistakenly pressed button go everyone else problem trying sue manufacturer well , text may bit hard reading , bet hopefully read mostly leaving aside language issue however , thinking \( admit \) language go think chris lilley technical author , itti computer graphics visualisation training project computer graphics unit , manchester computing centre , oxford road , manchester , uk m13 9pl internet c c lilley mcc ac uk voice 44 \( 0 \) 61 275 6045 fax 44 \( 0 \) 61 275 6040 janet c c lilley uk ac mcc
hotopp com \( daniel hotopp \) subject drivers diamond viper card organization electronic systems group , baltimore , md lines 13 've away couple weeks become touch latest information diamond viper card anyone know diamond come vesa driver updates lately \? also , wondering latest windows driver version thanks advance , dan daniel hotopp internet hotopp com antenna microwave integration \( w \) vax tron hotopp electric corp voice \( 410 \) 765
edmoore vcd hp com \( ed moore \) subject lcd vga display organization hewlett packard vcd x newsreader tin version 1 1 9 pl6 lines 5 've computer 21 months reasonable life cycle lcd display \? toshiba lcd \( cga , 1986 \) died 11 months replaced 12 month warranty , fortunately died , died instantly completely
athena mit edu \( roland carel \) subject surface contour plot organization massachusetts institute technology lines 6 distribution world nntp posting host mercury mit edu keywords plotting program , contour , mesh trying find program run environment ultrix x11r4 plot surfaces contour plots set x , , z would really appreciate hint name plotting program find thanks help
menudo uh edu \( c zhao \) subject full color image editor sgi workstations organization university houston lines 159 distribution world nntp posting host menudo uh edu happy announce first public release bit program , interactive , full color image viewer editor based sgi gl besides typical tasks , crop , rotate , smooth , etc , bit offers unique features available similar programs , text vector support separation text image following relevant sections man page pre release may , 1993 bit \( 1l \) name bit bitmap image sgi workstations description bit interactive full color image viewer editor based silicon graphics gl full color program , bit handles images 24bits color index natural efficient manner image viewer , bit allows list images displayed original type \( 24bits color index \) order many built styles display walk list using mouse keyboard , let bit walk \( slideshow \) pan zoom features , large images viewed full without limited window screen size image editor , bit performs large number image editing processing tasks accurately efficiently keeps information loss stage editing process absolute minimum performing sampling automatically input image type whenever possible avoid unnecessary promotion quantization input images also cut piece image paste another addition , arbitrarily colored sized text simple geometric figures rendered top image annotation option make part bitmap output separately take advantage higher printer resolutions \( e g postscript \) bit also used graphical user interface many existing image processing programs defining external bindings essence turn command line oriented programs bit accessed press button , best , processed image read back displayed immediately convolution using defined matrices arbitrary order performed dynamically giving great flexibility processing image features bit performs image manipulations interactively continuous progress report , processing complete , processed image displayed current features include rotates image arbitrary angle option anti aliasing filling rotated region arbitrary color scales image arbitrary factors x directions option sampling renders text arbitrary color , size orientation top image option rendering directly raster saving text raster separately , postscript file , take advantage higher printer resolution besides normal text strings , many predefined special symbols input conveniently tex \( 1 \) , e g , alpha small beta produces greek alphabet alpha followed slightly smaller greek alphabet beta presents graphically histogram image performs arbitrary 1 1 pixel transformation transformation function specified interactively arbitrary forms , transformation applied rgb channels separately simultaneously entire image portion many difficult tasks , thresholding , accomplished rather easily 1 1 transformation combination graphical histograms image places simple geometric figures \( \) , e g , arrows , circles , etc , arbitrary color , size orientation image arbitrary locations addressed either absolute pixels user definable coordinate system units , option rendering directly raster save raster separately \( e g , postscript file \) scaled x directions independently simultaneously \( get ellipse circle \) performs edge detection combination image histograms 1 1 transformation , accurate result obtained performs histogram equalization performs convolution externally defined \( square \) matrices arbitrary order crops rectangular portion image cuts across images portion image amount displays list images sequence user pause interval images \( slideshow \) measures rgb intensities pixel location pixels along arbitrary line result presented rgb intensities intensity vs distance plot performs image type conversions converts image formats image \( special convolution \) filters image external programs read filtered image back display modify individual pixel 's rgb values performs fft entire image portion display resulting power spectra spray brush paint full color \( unavailable pre release \) supported formats iris rgb , native sgi iris jpeg \( jfif \) format gif \( portable map \) , including ppm , pgm pbm xbm \( x window bitmap \) tiff postscript \( write \) hardware requirements sgi workstation supports \( \) , including get anonymous ftp monte uh edu pub bit tar z xxx version number current version 0 73 read src installation instructions acknowledgement jpeg support based independent jpeg groups 's library version 4 forms library , developed mark , used gui jpeg forms library included release bit program ever need view images built editing features satisfy editing needs addition , external filter kernel utilize program already try \( like \) always , comments bug reports welcome
cougar jpl nasa gov \( mike \) subject stop argument ! xv 3 00 24 bit ! \( oh make \) organization jet propulsion lab mid infrared camera project lines 13 nntp posting host cougar jpl nasa gov stop ! stop ! stop ! stop ! argument getting silly ! xv 3 00 handles 24 bit images without quantizing arguments moot , null , void please stop obsolete version program besides , generate tons new shareware licensing uses instead mike mike infrared photon jockey cougar jpl nasa gov less science dead guys ms dos 4 01 ms dos 4 01 windoze dr dos 6 0 os 2 2 0 linux x finally getting something useful done pet 386
pbenson ecst csuchico edu \( paul benson \) subject giant software organization california state university , chico lines 140 distribution usa nntp posting host cscihp ecst csuchico edu software retail sale price graphics corel draw 2 0 300 25 aldus photo 1 1 800 100 image color \( 2 \) 800 100 photo finish \( 3 \) 295 75 image scan paint 150 20 image full pack 300 45 picture publisher 800 100 image prep 200 50 snap pro 70 20 images inc 200 50 paintbrush 495 50 deluxe paint 2 129 25 \( font workshop \) 300 25 vista pro 100 20 workshop 149 35 gfa cad 100 25 utilities x tree gold win 99 25 tnt \( anti virus \) 100 15 salvation 100 15 amish utilities 79 15 multimedia smart text 200 10 music clips 149 25 audio tracks 79 15 plus \( mac \) 495 35 plus \( pc \) 495 35 ask 2000 500 35 multi media make point 79 20 madison ave 75 25 interface \( mac \) 300 10 mr sound effects 50 10 music bytes 50 10 show 495 50 plus 400 50 programming windows 3 1 dev kit \( full \) 500 75 windows maker pro 995 50 ms c 5 1 500 10 top speed modula 300 10 business art negotiating 150 10 150 10 full impact \( mac \) 500 10 approach database 400 50 ascend 300 35 games nfl pro league football 49 15 eco 40 10 hardware modem 2400 baud 200 50 assorted joysticks 35 9 vga tv 300 50 amiga trac ball 75 20 misc wedding planner 49 10 software yard sale fri 4 30 , sat 5 1 , sun 5 2 8 30 4 00 e mail pbenson cscihp ecst csuchico edu location 436 rd , paradise ca phone 916 872 terms cash , check , charge \( visa mc accepted \)
parc xerox com \( ken \) subject oh make mind ! ! \( xv problems \) organization xerox parc lines 20 article 1993apr30 nessie mcc ac uk , lilley v5 cgu mcc ac uk \( chris lilley \) writes true 24 bit xv would come solid , logical , well argued lucid description precisely proposed extensions would work , feel free post n't mind someone would love see xv go 24 bit , would plenty \) xv load 24 bit image , display 's 24 bit glory 24 bit x displays b \) operations \( crop , dither , smooth , etc \) supported 24 bit images hard would \? ken xerox com
carson u washington edu \( cave \) subject anyone know use rayshade \? organization university washington lines 13 nntp posting host carson u washington edu keywords rayshade , uw stein2 u washington edu \( toes \) writes i'm using rayshade u w computers , 'd like input users , perhaps swap ideas could post uuencoded gifs , ray code , anyone 's interested i'm trouble coming colors metallic \( e brass , steel \) rgb values sorry , i'm rayshade user hey , looks like group could use traffic guess metallic n't color , rgb sense rather , 's matter surface reflects light i'm sure property metallic materials , makes recognizable , i'm pretty sure color material look metallic
craig ucla edu \( craig \) subject 2 spline fit organization ucla cognitive science program lines 9 distribution world nntp posting host ucla edu anyone know site might 2 spline fit routine useful interpolation \? thanks help , craig craig ucla edu
lioness maple circa ufl edu subject 3do \? organization center instructional research computing activities lines 6 reply lioness ufcc ufl edu nntp posting host maple circa ufl edu someone please fill 3do thanks , bh
alex falcon demon co uk \( alex \) subject sci files sco files distribution world organization dis \( organised \) reply alex falcon demon co uk x newsreader simple news 1 90 \( ka9q dis 1 21 \) lines 16 article 1993apr30 daimi aau dk rued daimi aau dk writes hello ! week ago guy asked sco file sc \( character \) regards rued yes , \? alex falcon demon co uk
wang com \( dave \) subject tiff philosophical significance 42 \( silly \) organization wang labs , lowell , usa lines 10 crosfield co uk \( richard kirk \) writes 's number legs , know number left legs , left right \? dave , wang laboratories , inc amateur radio callsign project leader , recognition products n0ary ca na internet wang com
cs ulowell edu \( \) subject looking info quadratic spline bezier conversion organization umass lowell computer science lines 15 hi looking algorithm pointers papers convert quadratic splines cubic splines source available public domain , please let know thanks much ks e mail cs ulowell edu phone 508 934 \( w \) snail mail department computer science , umass lowell , lowell , 01854
cats ucsc edu \( scott corbin crow \) subject mode 13h organization university california santa cruz lines 7 nntp posting host ucsc edu anyone know access display multiple pages mode 13h still maintaining 1 byte per pixel memory organization \? examples c assembly would appreciated thanks scott
sdc boeing com \( gerald edgar \) subject viewing jpeg files keywords windows viewers distribution na organization boeing computer services \( esp \) , seattle , wa lines 9 nntp posting host crystal jpeg viewers windows based therefore need hardware specific drivers beyond provided windows got mine library congress connection online exhibit books vatican library see previous message newgroup gerald edgar atc boeing com opinions expressed may represent employer
ccu umanitoba ca \( brendan \) subject looking hot mac 3d anim software nntp posting host ccu umanitoba ca organization university manitoba , winnipeg , canada distribution usa lines 49 news udel edu stern brahms udel edu \( garland stern \) writes interested finding 3d animation programs mac especially interested programs n't exist pc port good would make go buy mac exist \? thanks advance howdy think would interested infini 2 5 mac dos windows version 's quite amazing program features text timeline based animation sequencer realtime bounding box preview object linking phong shading ray tracing bounding box shading wireframe shading shading flat shading anti aliasing \( none , low , medium , high \) environment maps quicktime support \( wrap qt movie around object \) procedural surfaces composed surfaces \( surfaces \) alpha channel support import eps , dxf , swivel 3d files export dxf swivel 3d files spline based animation animation assistant \( creating smooth movements stuff \) object morphing \( surfaces morph \) lots ca n't remember right anyway , 's expensive animation rendering packages think get around 699 macwarehouse also educational discounts well , hope helps bit see ya brendan internet ccu umanitoba ca america online
robert slipknot rain com \( robert reed \) subject acm siggraph \( acm general \) reply robert reed robert slipknot rain com organization home animation ltd lines 50 article 1993apr29 csustan edu rsc altair csustan edu \( steve cunningham \) writes , siggraph 93 skipped town 're preparing best siggraph conference yet ! speaking siggraph , went ordeal annual registration siggraph membership acm last night , ever ! new prices membership almost highway robbery ! example siggraph basic fee went 26 last year 59 year thing , 127 increase enough arrange trip annual conference could reduce 27 selecting siggraph lite , means siggraph charging additional 32 \( \) proceedings art show catalog , essentially went 40 cost , way current inflation rate basic fees , whereas membership included human factors conferences proceedings , extra cost option back basic rate , equivalent services gone 100 cost membership cost 33 , 've also split computer supported cooperative work conference proceedings used included membership adding cost back means sig also doubled membership fee really acm sent brochures couple months ago touting new approach providing member services , tried make sound like offering new services exception couple , like siggraph , plus services appear splitting costs smaller piles n't look big recommended changes membership would paying 90 last year 31 increase services \( measured cost , value \) , , curiously , 31 inflation rate publications got last year anyone extortion \? robert reed home animation ltd 503 656 robert slipknot rain com first court , west linn , shooting foot various languages systems motif spend days writing uil description foot , trajectory , bullet , intricate ivory handles gun finally get around pulling trigger , gun jams
tmc spartan ac brocku ca \( tim ciceran \) subject corel draw harvard draw \? organization brock university , st catharines ontario x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 distribution usa lines 32 larry \( larry med ge com \) wrote wife wants publish newsletter 's artist , intends use comercial clipart bit drawing circle box around etc manipulating text , suitable much graphics , needs tool right 's looking corel draw harvard draw seem books stores corel harvard , 's inclined go corel basis popularity anyone give us informed opinion package would suitable even better alternative available \? faq , please withhold flames send location faq document thanks go coreldraw review couple issues ago adobe illustrator coreldraw picked best three ps 's 1 \) ok use clip art harvard draw whatever commercial purposes \? \( two deleted \) far know 's okay 'd read licence agreement comes package sure tmc \( tmc spartan ac brocku ca \)
brandon launchpad unc edu \( brandon \) subject company info graphics software keywords software , company nntp posting host lambada oit unc edu organization university north carolina extended bulletin board service lines 19 within next several months 'll looking job computer graphics software i'm need info graphics software companies 've checked faq , resource list , siggraph org , n't found anything last computer graphics career handbook i'm aware , published 1991 list 40 companies , tremendously specific information people please steer towards current depth informational resources \? thanks 'll post summary 's interest brandon opinions expressed necessarily university north carolina chapel hill , campus office information technology , experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu 152 2 22 80
subject gif targa david mason channel1 com \( david mason \) distribution world organization channel 1 communications lines 6 krzysztof asking gif tga conversion could use dta 1 5 convert tga files fli animation files krzysztof , update copy dta recent release \( current 1 8g \) later versions dta read gif files
scorch apana org au \( kingsley turner \) subject universal vesa driver organization public unix system , newcastle , oz summary want know universal vesa driver keywords vesa lines 12 time ago \( 1 month \) bit discussion universal vesa driver 8bit cards file zip well ca n't find , anyone know \( gorilla something something au \) , sort cards works \? also would pushing luck ask someone post appropriate group kingsley turner nsw australia
brunel ac uk \( sunil gupta \) subject message cgcad bart inescn pt organization brunel university , uxbridge , uk x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 7 sunil gupta \( brunel ac uk \) wrote cant get author rtrace site inaccessible upload new version somewhere else please \? problem solved , wuarchive graphics graphics ray rtrace seg fault often \?
cs173sbw sdcc5 ucsd edu \( cs173sbw \) subject real 3d organization university california , san diego lines 11 nntp posting host sdcc5 ucsd edu heard friend return nab las vegas confirm releasing windows version real 3d 2 0 summer told rendering speed dx50 n't fast a4000 however , also told switching microsoft c gain speed people looking powerful 3d animation software pc wait n't long real 3d 2 0 absolutely powerful flexible 3d package sells less 1000 p heard indigo version also development
genesis nred us \( andrew hudson \) subject source create fli flc \? summary looking source create fli flc organization genesis public access unix 1 508 664 lines 12 anyone know source available create fli flc animations \? would ideally like dll 's windows would settle c source 've heard might available amiga forums somewhere libraries currently distributed autodesk , , , fli creation capability , playback pointers would appreciated , thanks ! andrew hudson genesis nred us
trb3 ra msstate edu \( tony r \) subject video speed organization mississippi state university lines 18 nntp posting host ra msstate edu keywords anim , ibm , 3d using ibm dx 50 eisa local bus need get local bus video card hitch need one allow fastest \( \) ram 64 megs ram 16 meg simms using 3d studio autodesk imagine impulse write flc format anyone know would best card showing fast ram ie like orchid , diamond stealth viper , ati etc help would appreciated \( trying circumvent single frame route \) email trb3 ra msstate edu post back thanks
frank neumann informatik uni oldenburg de \( frank neumann \) subject happened dkb l trearn \? \? \? organization university oldenburg , germany lines 16 hi , david k drum writes listserv told list n't exist ! got global list groups listserv nothing ! every string could think frank , ville saari , andre beck , anyone else 's regular dkb l tell going , please ! sent mail turgut \( sp \? \) , maintainer list , asked 's going list \( whatever reason \) really dead , might put list , want wait answer frank ps thought would another period silence
deb47099 uxa cso uiuc edu \( daniel e bradley \) subject help ! quicktime 1 5 system 7 1 problem keywords quicktime mac organization university illinois urbana lines 14 unable run quicktime 1 5 iivx running system 7 1 , n't know \( better group post , please let know \) quicktime 1 0 works fine , try run movie application supports , like simple player , canvas word , get message sorry system error occurred ' application ' trap continue restart , press continue get application unexpectedly quit , error type 12 occurred substitute simple player canvas word ' application , messages always restart quicktime 1 0 , problems suggestions \? loss thanks advance oh yah , please email n't check newsgroups often dan bradley deb47099 uxa cso uiuc edu
deb47099 uxa cso uiuc edu \( daniel e bradley \) subject fractal terrain generator \? keywords fractal terrain mac organization university illinois urbana lines 10 anyone know fractal terrain generator mac , something could hopefully import 3d program like swivel stratavision \? know infini built capabilities , n't access infini downloaded two programs umich , graphics fractals , 1990 91 crashed system 7 think black white anyway please , email know anything , n't check newsgroups often thanks advance dan bradley deb47099 uxa cso uiuc edu
aurora alaska edu subject hacker ethic go \? lines 46 nntp posting host acad3 alaska edu organization university alaska fairbanks great many computer programmers read dr dobb 's journal recent issue , paragraph article greatly read said 's nothing wrong microsoft setting standards computer industry industry needs ibm 90 's hacker ethic gone \? cracker ethic , something entirely different bad , hacker ethic , tells us value free distribution information yield hands imperative \? people corporations like bill gates , ibm , intel able virtual dead lock computer industry \? , person like posts messages usenet get little , , computer system , given useful information know , \? \( completely ignored \) people like steve jobs abandon efforts make truly innovative products \? ask call hackers , \? , let go \? fact computer industry changed world , shall continue long time come allowed propagation information volume unheard even twenty years ago , made world even smaller shudder think world like corporations allowed way , perpetuating drivel like 286 , windows , ibm product line computer using public say business per se people profit innovative , intelligent , creative designs bother fact , applaud american way manage sell , systems public , profit , ones problem , unfortunately , enough money make blunt stupidity , keep long time put thus hacker ethic gone \? still exists , \? , exist , call hackers allowing perpetuate \? creating new , innovative , interesting ideas stop sos maintaining choke hold computer industry \? await interest probably resounding silence acad3 alaska edu revenge dish best served cold szechuan death khan singh star trek ii wrath khan
trevor netcom com \( sandy \) subject lcd vga display organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 28 mike mattone \( mike mik uky edu \) wrote anyone else experienced anything like \? means need replace screen guess 'll thought death lcd screen would little less dramatic eventually happened n't want take repaired asked net already know 'll say yep , gotta replaced 's gonna cost \? \? \? 've computer 21 months \? ! \? 's long time ! \( echoing posting \) way market going nowadays , machine 's obsolete two weeks buy sounds like 'll sink money repair , 's sometimes necessary equipment reasonable life cycle lcd display \? think 21 months nothing wrong quite reasonable bought compaq toshiba , might reasonably expected machine last longer something went wrong 's moot point , perhaps sandy trevor netcom com berkeley , california trevor well sf ca us
dcs warwick ac uk \( kate kingman \) subject lcd vga display nntp posting host shuffle organization department computer science , warwick university , england lines 24 article vcd hp com edmoore vcd hp com \( ed moore \) writes 've computer 21 months reasonable life cycle lcd display \? toshiba lcd \( cga , 1986 \) died 11 months replaced 12 month warranty , fortunately died , died instantly completely worked support company problems several toshiba 1600 's short space time around 2 years old screens went completely \( \) , others happened 5 6 , maybe 100 fairly reliable n't think special problem 's \( link company \) would think 21 months may unreasonable unlucky ! regards , kate \) kate kingman dcs warwick ac uk leave typos tall blonde csv warwick ac uk occupy bored \) \) people \)
genesis nred us subject creating fli flc animation files \? organization genesis public access unix 1 508 664 lines 15 looking means add fli flc animation creation windows application hoping something along lines autodesk creation delta compressed animations seems coded large memory model dos turbo c ideally would like dll medium model object library , would settle anything , really 've seen windows apps fli flc creation , hack code submission \? pointers would appreciated , please send mail directly summarize results interest andrew hudson genesis nred us
willamette edu \( lisp \) subject hacker ethic go \? article du organization willamette university , salem lines 21 article 1993may1 1 aurora alaska edu aurora alaska edu writes put thus hacker ethic gone \? still exists , \? , exist , call hackers allowing perpetuate \? creating new , innovative , interesting ideas stop sos maintaining choke hold computer industry \? gnu people , handing good , free software \? 've also distributed two decent sized programs , go player \( ftp u washington edu \) genetic neural network programmer \( somewhere \) 've time write programs grants intended benefit society , loophole system \? ! peter , 11 , lisp , order golden finger ! ! reformed church james eric half bee , curry ! ! shadowy flight dangerous world man exist ! ! please mail plastic 900 state st c 210 , salem , !
grady netcom com \( 1016 2ef221 \) subject hacker ethic go \? organization capriccioso x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 10 hacker ethic go \? hackers 70 's comfortably employed supporting families next generation takes radical lead n't look radicalism among us old ones 're gone grady netcom com 2ef221 15 e2 ad d3 d1 c6 f3 fc 58 ac f7 3d 4f 01 1e 2f
gpu utcc utoronto ca \( dr edmund west \) subject avs presentation organization utcc public access distribution tor lines 46 university toronto instructional research computing sponsoring technical presentation visualization software v n c e v u l e \( v \) f w r e 2 10 pm 4 00 pm thursday , may 6 , 1993 fleming building room 1105 advanced visual systems present technical seminar avs , world 's leading visualization software package avs point click , module driven , easy use product produces full color , two three dimensional rendered scenes interactive observation supported current unix risc platforms sun , sgi , ibm , h p , dg , dec also runs dec vms avs fourth year street mature fields science , engineering , medicine , even business applications use avs seminar focus many features technical detail half hour slide presentation following question period live demonstration using sun sparcstation addition , new avs program called campus introduced meeting also discussed international avs center , provides line repository 1000 graphics modules north carolina supercomputer center , nc avs tools write one 's customized modules available avs avs international p e k e r scheduled speaker presentation mr paul associates , distributor avs canada h p r e e n n p e n h e p u b l c
diablo uucp ! cboesel \( charles boesel \) subject adobe photo shop type software unix x motif platforms \? organization diablo creative reply diablo uucp ! cboesel \( charles boesel \) x mailer uaccess lite macintosh release 1 6v2 lines 14 article world std com \( sci image processing , comp graphics \) , wdm world std com \( wayne michael \) writes searching quality image enhancement manipulation package unix x motif platforms comparable adobe photo shop mac stuff deleted understand adobe working making photoshop available sgi indigo , rumor would n't bet see going release illustrator sgi real soon charles boesel diablo creative pro con cboesel diablo uu holonet net 's opposite progress \? 1 510 687 \( work \) else , congress
jk87377 lehtori cc tut fi \( kouhia juhana \) subject oh make mind ! ! \( xv problems \) organization tampere university technology lines 40 distribution world nntp posting host cc tut fi article 1993apr30 nessie mcc ac uk c c lilley mcc ac uk writes xv allows feature , n't recommend use mentioned type images ah ! see problem ! first want extend xv allow editing 8 bit 24 bit images point problems saying problem , personally , happen use parts program cause problem ! ! see previous article debate rests see xv 3 00 agree view cases n't even say personal opinion \( \) , n't mean obvious thing please , use previous writings contradicting argument , please read saw refered text wrote make hard decisions , without reading exactly written really hard read one writes reply line line method n't understand include previously written material new sentences give meaning seem one also start replying articles , even n't understand going ask repeatedly views wrong xv 2 21 even posted within article reply believe , nice get flamed specially know read article carefully first place xv 3 00 jpeg faq users written agree places n't i'm sure n't wrote blame writing skills \( english \? \) , \? better stop discussion check new ideas xv 3 00 gives allready mailed one bradley juhana kouhia
subject fractal terrain generator \? pdbourke ccu1 aukuni ac nz \( paul david bourke \) organization university auckland , new zealand keywords fractal terrain mac lines 34 deb47099 uxa cso uiuc edu \( daniel e bradley \) writes anyone know fractal terrain generator mac , something could hopefully import 3d program like swivel stratavision \? know infini built capabilities , n't access infini downloaded two programs umich , graphics fractals , 1990 91 crashed system 7 think black white anyway please , email know anything , n't check newsgroups often thanks advance dan bradley deb47099 uxa cso uiuc edu yes written something creates meshed fractal terrain surfaces exactly purpose require , importing 3d modelling packages warned , data content high brings many packages knees use primarily microstation exports dxf , well formats , ok get ftp mirror site us wuarchive wustl edu stuff located mirrors architec directory please ftp readme file first paul bourke school architecture , property , planning pdbourke ccu1 auckland ac nz university auckland ph 64 9 373 private bag fax 64 9 373 auckland , new zealand paul bourke school architecture , property , planning pdbourke ccu1 auckland ac nz university auckland ph 64 9 373 private bag fax 64 9 373 auckland , new zealand
organization penn state university psuvm psu edu subject direct video memory lines 12 hi i'm looking information directly manipulate video memory application would like use , much faster going bios know video memory system area first 640k , guess looking find exactly section memory , layed thanks regards , gordon rogers psuvm psu edu void signature \( void \)
olasov cs columbia edu \( benjamin olasov \) subject ftp achive usgs terrain data organization none lines 22 article 1993apr24 welchgate welch jhu edu danj welchgate welch jhu edu \( dan jacobson \) writes lot interesting stuff gopher deleted 've never heard gopher n't worry 's free net , write note 'd like information get started best luck , dan jacobson danj welchgate welch jhu edu 've heard lost intro posting came back could post \? think 's general interest ben ben olasov olasov cs columbia edu
thinman netcom com \( technically sweet \) subject universal vesa driver keywords vesa organization international foundation internal freedom lines 84 scorch apana org au \( kingsley turner \) writes time ago \( 1 month \) bit discussion universal vesa driver 8bit cards file zip well ca n't find , anyone know \( gorilla something something au \) , sort cards works \? also would pushing luck ask someone post appropriate group kingsley turner nsw australia host edvz univie ac location pc dos graphics file rw r r 21525 mar 7 18 00 uvesa31 zip host plaza aarnet edu au location micros pc garbo pc screen file r r r apr 4 00 00 uvesa31 zip location micros pc oak graphics file r r r 21525 mar 7 19 00 uvesa31 zip host godzilla cgl rmit oz au location kjb mgl file rw r r mar 29 15 03 zip host nic switch ch location mirror msdos graphics file rw rw r 21525 mar 7 20 00 uvesa31 zip location software pc simtel20 graphics file rw rw r 21525 mar 7 20 00 uvesa31 zip host rvs uni hannover de location pub msdos koeln graphics file rw r r 21525 apr 4 17 08 uvesa31 zip host sun0 urz uni heidelberg de location pub msdos simtel graphics file rw rw r 21525 mar 7 19 00 uvesa31 zip host athene uni paderborn de location msdos graphics file rw r r 21525 mar 7 18 00 uvesa31 zip host compute1 cc ncsu edu location mirrors wustl mirrors msdos graphics file rw r r 21525 mar 7 19 00 uvesa31 zip host rigel acs oakland edu location pub msdos graphics file rw r r 21525 mar 7 19 00 uvesa31 zip host pc usl edu location pub msdos video graphics file rw r r 21525 mar 11 10 41 uvesa31 zip host kyoto u ac jp location mirrors simtel20 msdos graphics file rw rw r mar 13 16 41 zip file rw rw r 21525 mar 8 12 00 uvesa31 zip host ftp uu net location systems ibmpc msdos simtel20 graphics file rw rw r 21525 mar 7 14 00 uvesa31 zip lance thinman netcom com data information knowledge wisdom
brandon launchpad unc edu \( brandon \) subject 3d graphics software company info \? nntp posting host lambada oit unc edu organization university north carolina extended bulletin board service lines 19 within months , 'll looking job 3d computer graphics software i'm need info companies 's nothing faq 's group , nothing siggraph org \( least could n't find anything \) last computer graphics career handbook dated 1991 , info 40 companies , nothing specific people please direct towards current detailed sources information \? 'll post summary sources 's interest also , could please e mail , news server fritz \( thanks , brandon opinions expressed necessarily university north carolina chapel hill , campus office information technology , experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu 152 2 22 80
wang cs indiana edu subject 3d graphics software company info \? organization computer science , indiana university lines 6 believe many people happy information , please post comp graphics thanks ,
dgf1 quads uchicago edu \( david farley \) subject adobe photo shop type software unix x motif platforms \? reply dgf1 midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 30 article 0010580b diablo uucp diablo uucp ! cboesel \( charles boesel \) writes article world std com \( sci image processing , comp graphics \) , wdm world std com \( wayne michael \) writes searching quality image enhancement manipulation package unix x motif platforms comparable adobe photo shop mac stuff deleted understand adobe working making photoshop available sgi indigo , rumor would n't bet see going release illustrator sgi real soon charles boesel diablo creative pro con cboesel diablo uu holonet net 's opposite progress \? 1 510 687 \( work \) else , congress adobe seminar conference propaganda forum whatever want call couple months ago announced display postscript going included next release sun 's os , \( presumably solaris \) sun going drop development newsprint , , return , adobe going port illustrator photoshop sun articles appeared trade journals immediately , n't heard hope 's still works david farley university chicago library 312 702 3426 1100 east 57th street , jrl 210 dgf1 midway uchicago edu chicago , illinois 60637
car mi org \( chris \) subject need recommendations imaging workstations lines 23 need recommendations imaging workstations minimum , following requirements high resolution graphics \( black white \) display fax images support display multiple windows fax image , 3270 emulation window ibm host , etc high speed network interface 3270 , image data , etc \( 16mb token ring , ethernet , etc \) mouse information experience would appreciated thanks , car
mpdillon halcyon com \( michael dillon \) subject looking polygon organization world information fingertips lines 17 distribution world nntp posting host nwfocus wa com anyone know find code would take concave polygons break set convex polygons \? also would like code algorithms fact , interested sources code algorithms convert 2d graphical objects 2d graphical objects render image e bezier curves b splines , splines circular arc segments , b splines , etc michael dillon internet mpdillon halcyon halcyon com c 4 powerhouse fidonet 1 353 350 rr 2 armstrong , bc voice 1 604 546 canada bbs 1 604 546
aol com subject wanna scan 24 bit picture \? organization utexas mail news gateway lines 2 nntp posting host cs utexas edu 24 bit color 600 dpi scanner job gif , tiff , pcx , bmp interested \? please write aol com
add sciences sdsu edu \( james murray \) subject need specs mpeg \( mpg \) file format organization san diego state university , college sciences lines 9 nntp posting host sciences sdsu edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 looking specs mpg files floating around alt binaries pictures groups net please know obtain spec email thanks much james murray add sciences sdsu edu
dclunie pax tpa com au \( david clunie \) subject easy translate jpeg code organization master 's voice lines 22 distribution world reply dclunie pax tpa com au nntp posting host britt pax tpa com au article shelley u washington edu , stusoft hardy u washington edu \( stuart denman \) writes anyone jpeg decompression code pretty much language read understand \? trouble understanding jpeg group 's code got ftp site one send good code , appreciate lot ! thanks ! problem process inherently complicated ! ijg 's code pretty good ask , watched go many many cycles revision try getting good book subject , explain algorithms specifically jpeg still image compression standard mitchell , 1993 , isbn 0 442 1 btw presume comment good code n't meant sound offensive david clunie \( dclunie pax tpa com au \)
klaava helsinki fi \( jarkko tapio \) subject ftp site pov files \? organization university helsinki lines 9 know asked million time , ftp site carrying 30 40 full pov source files , including jack zip kettle zip \? 've unfortunately lost address i'm little hurry , please e mail helsinki fi thanks jarkko
xyzzy hal gnu ai mit edu \( daniel \) subject hacker ethic go \? organization dis lines 18 nntp posting host hal ai mit edu article awe netcom com grady netcom com \( 1016 2ef221 \) writes hacker ethic go \? hackers 70 's comfortably employed supporting families next generation takes radical lead n't look radicalism among us old ones 're gone guess 's place please finger xyzzy gnu ai mit edu information , mail news site , mail xyzzy gnu ai mit edu subject line send finger daniel xyzzy gnu ai mit edu forever , forever , coda vaxc hofstra edu
lars cs sun ac za \( lars michael \) subject jpeg specification reply lars itu sun ac za organization university stellenbosch , south africa x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 37 recently got document describing jpeg \( jfif \) file format looking thru , n't get idea determine size pic pixel without decoding whole image get height width jpeg jfif \? determine wether color greyscale picture \? wrote small tool \( \) gif returns , picture size color resolution header chunks output looks like bla gif 480 use create index files archive since jpeg getting popular would like similar tool jfif , output like bla jpg 480 c24 please respond email , n't read news group often 'll post summary useful thanx advance , larry lars larry michael \( mr gif \) murphy 's law lars itu sun ac za go wrong , informatik uni erlangen de spec stud univ stellenbosch south ham zr grad stud univ erlangen germany irc pit
af774 cleveland freenet edu \( chad cipiti \) subject fractint speedstar 24x organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 17 reply af774 cleveland freenet edu \( chad cipiti \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu i'm still looking fractint drivers new release supports 24bit color mode diamond speedstar 24x 2 , 4 26 million drivers , none work 24x help would appreciated ! thanks ! chad new 1993 sea world ohio chad cipiti shark cipiti bobcat ent ohiou edu encounter make contact af774 cleveland freenet edu
add sciences sdsu edu \( james murray \) subject hacker ethic go \? organization san diego state university , college sciences lines 11 nntp posting host sciences sdsu edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 bill gates steve jobs result natural evolution successful hacker either make money , go jail \( lee sp \? \) , fade away oh , 's uncle really likes computers computer hacker change long definition word computer continues change james murray add sciences sdsu edu
danj welchgate welch jhu edu \( dan jacobson \) subject ftp achive usgs terrain data organization johns hopkins univ welch medical library lines 370 article cs columbia edu olasov cs columbia edu \( benjamin olasov \) writes article 1993apr24 welchgate welch jhu edu danj welchgate welch jhu edu \( dan jacobson \) writes lot interesting stuff gopher deleted 've never heard gopher n't worry 's free net , write note 'd like information get started best luck , dan jacobson danj welchgate welch jhu edu 've heard lost intro posting came back could post \? think 's general interest ben ben olasov olasov cs columbia edu heavily edited modified version gopher faq intended give people starting gopher enough information get client jump gopher space complete version obtained described gopher client point welch jhu edu welcome gopher space ! dan jacobson danj welchgate welch jhu edu common questions answers internet gopher , client server protocol making world wide information service , many implementations posted comp gopher , comp answers , news answers every two weeks recent version faq gotten gopher , via anonymous ftp rtfm mit edu pub usenet news answers gopher faq without ftp access send e mail mail server rtfm mit edu send usenet news answers finding sources body find ftp e mail list questions gopher faq q0 gopher \? q1 get gopher software \? q2 need access gopher \? q3 publicly available logins gopher \? q4 develops gopher software \? q5 relationship gopher \( wais , www , ftp \) \? q6 papers articles describing gopher available \? q7 veronica \? q8 available biology \? q0 gopher \? a0 internet gopher client server provides distributed information delivery system around world campus wide information system \( cwis \) readily constructed providing delivery vehicle local information , gopher facilitates access gopher information servers throughout world q1 get gopher software \? a1 via anonymous ftp boombox micro umn edu look directory pub gopher q2 need access gopher \? a2 need gopher client program runs local pc workstation clients following systems directory following name location client anonymous ftp site boombox micro umn edu \( 134 84 132 2 \) directory pub gopher unix curses emacs pub gopher unix 12 tar z xwindows \( athena \) pub gopher unix 2 tar z xwindows \( motif \) pub gopher unix moog xwindows \( xview \) pub gopher unix macintosh hypercard pub gopher macintosh old versions macintosh application pub gopher macintosh dos w clarkson driver pub gopher pc client nextstep pub gopher next vm cms pub gopher rice cms pub gopher vms pub gopher vms os 2 2 0 pub gopher os2 mvs xa pub gopher mvs many clients servers developed others , following attempt comprehensive list microsoft windows winsock client gopher book sunsite unc edu pub micro pc stuff ms windows winsock zip macintosh application , ftp cc utah edu pub gopher macintosh another macintosh application , ftp bio indiana edu util gopher port unix curses client dos pc tcp oac hsc uth tmc edu public dos misc exe port unix curses client pc nfs bcm tmc edu nfs gopher exe beta version pc gopher client novell 's lan workplace dos lennon med umich edu dos gopher vms decwindows client use wollongong ucx job acs ohio state edu client share note macintosh clients require mactcp clients also fetched via gopher client put following gopher server type 1 host boombox micro umn edu port 70 path name gopher software distribution point gopher client boombox micro umn edu , port 70 look gopher directory also number public telnet login sites available university minnesota operates one machine consultant micro umn edu \( 134 84 132 4 \) see q3 information recommended run client software instead logging public telnet login sites client uses custom features local machine \( mouse , scroll bars , etc \) local client also faster q3 publicly available logins \( ie places telnet order get taste gopher \) gopher \? a3 short list , use site closest minimize network lag telnet public logins hostname ip login area consultant micro umn edu 134 84 132 4 gopher north america gopher uiuc edu 128 174 33 160 gopher north america panda uiowa edu 128 255 40 201 panda north america gopher se 192 36 125 2 gopher europe info anu edu au 150 203 84 20 info australia gopher chalmers se 129 16 221 40 gopher sweden puc cl 146 155 1 16 gopher south america ec 157 100 45 2 gopher ncc go jp 160 190 10 1 gopher japan recommended run client software instead logging public login sites client uses custom features local machine \( mouse , scroll bars , etc \) gives faster response furthermore many basic features clients saving file hard drive , printing file local printer , viewing images , retrieving files ftp sites etc available telnet logins q4 develops gopher software \? a4 gopher originally developed april 1991 university minnesota microcomputer , workstation , networks center help campus find answers computer questions since grown full fledged world wide information system used large number sites world many people contributed project , numerous count people behind much gopher software reached via e mail gopher boombox micro umn edu , via paper mail internet gopher developers 100 union st se 190 minneapolis , mn usa via fax 1 \( 612 \) 625 q5 relationship gopher \( wais , www , ftp \) \? a5 gopher intimately two systems shipped unix gopher server capability search local wais indices query remote wais servers funnel results gopher clients query remote ftp sites funnel results gopher clients www \( world wide web \) clients \( either using built gopher using native q6 papers articles describing gopher available \? a6 gopher whole chapter devoted whole internet , ed , o'reilly , 1992 \( editors note great book , go buy bunch ! \) internet passport 's guide world online jonathan published , bellevue , wa 1993 516 pp isbn 0 0 6 contact info passport net , \( 206 \) 562 3000 students guide unix harley hahn \( publisher mcgraw hill , inc 1993 isbn 0 07 3 \) references include internet gopher , , july 1992 , exploring internet internet society news , 1992 , \( subscribe internet society news sending e mail reston va us \) internet gopher protocol , proceedings twenty third , , section 5 3 internet gopher , proceedings canadian networking '92 internet gopher , internet getting started , sri international , section 10 5 5 tools help internet users discover line , , july 20 , 1992 tcp ip network administration , o'reilly , b \( oct 1992 \) making databases accessible gopher protocol fall '92 workshop , chapel hill , north carolina , c information technology standards libraries , journal american society information science , 43 \( 8 \) 566 570 , sept 1992 q7 veronica \? a7 veronica easy oriented net wide index computerized archives veronica offers keyword search gopher server menu titles entire gopher web archie ftp archives , veronica veronica search produces menu gopher items , direct pointer gopher data source veronica accessed gopher client , easy use , gives access types data supported gopher protocol try veronica , select gophers menu minnesota 's gopher server , point gopher name veronica \( search menu items \) type 1 port 70 path 1 veronica host scs unr edu q8 available biology \? a8 incredible amount software , data information biologists gopher brief list biological databases search via gopher 2 data base searches 3 buyers guide online catalogues biology tel 4 search protein data bank headers \? 5 genetics center 6 database 7 databases probes primers 8 museum type index \? 9 database \? 10 search \( \) \( indiana \) 11 search \( genbank swiss prot pdb \) \? 12 search database \? 13 search database \? 14 search metabolic compound database \? 15 search databases \( vectors , , nrl 3d , est , 16 search embl \? 17 search genbank \? 18 search genbank 2 \? 19 search genbank updates \? 20 search limb \? 21 search \? 22 search \( keyword , species \) \? 23 search \? 24 search restriction enzyme database \? 25 search swiss prot \? 26 search tfd \? 27 search c strain list \? 28 search dna database japan \? 29 search ec enzyme database \? 30 search database \? 31 search database 32 vectors , phage , etc \? 33 eukaryotic database \? 34 est expressed sequence tag database human \? 35 west expressed sequence tag database c \? 36 database proteins interest \? 37 nrl 3d protein sequence structure database \? 38 online inheritance man \? 39 sequence analysis bibliographic reference data ban \? 40 search restriction enzyme database \? 41 search ec enzyme database \? 42 search section genbank \? 43 database \( genbank , swiss prot \) 44 retrieve full pdb entries number \? 45 search researchers funded nih \? 46 search genome researchers funded doe \? 47 search researchers funded nsf \? 48 search researchers funded usda \? 49 e mail addresses 50 e mail addresses yeast 51 around world 52 search retrieve software computers 53 search retrieve macintosh software 54 search retrieve dos software 55 search retrieve gnu software 56 search retrieve software biology 57 search agricultural software 58 search retrieve graphics software data 59 search retrieve online perl scripts 60 ftp sites biology \( 56 archives software data \) list goes beginning
orourke sophia smith edu \( joseph o'rourke \) subject looking polygon organization smith college , northampton , , us lines 10 article nwfocus wa com mpdillon halcyon com \( michael dillon \) writes anyone know find code would take concave polygons break set convex polygons \? also would like code algorithms although offering code , would like point polygon triangulation code satisfies task stated want code partition polygon minimum number convex pieces , doubt much exists , although algorithm known
justin sydney dialix oz au \( justin sullivan \) subject lcd vga display organization dialix services , sydney , new south wales , australia x newsreader nn version 6 4 19 1 lines 30 x2 netcom com trevor netcom com \( sandy \) writes mike mattone \( mike mik uky edu \) wrote 've computer 21 months \? ! \? 's long time ! reasonable life cycle lcd display \? think 21 months nothing wrong quite reasonable bought compaq toshiba , might reasonably expected machine last longer something went wrong 's moot point , perhaps maybe 've epson portable backlit lcd since 1988 still used daily screen fine problem \( ever \) arm screen sorta lose bend fairly screen goes wiggle round bit , 's perfect ! 's , um , 60 months \? \? \? ! justin sullivan \( system administrator \) dialix services sydney modem \( 02 \) 948 justin sydney dialix oz au ph perth \( 09 \) 244
rs6000 cmp ilstu edu \( jean \) subject hacker ethic go \? organization illinois state university lines 39 article m3o pandora sdsu edu add sciences sdsu edu \( james murray \) writes bill gates steve jobs result natural evolution successful hacker either make money , go jail \( lee sp \? \) , fade away oh , 's uncle really likes computers computer hacker change long definition word computer continues change perhaps write freely available , unix commonly available computer platforms \( i386 i486 machines \) become catalyst major project produces better unix like os many commercial counterparts \( see comp os linux details \) maybe found programming freedom fight restrictive litigation software practices , thereby protecting creative freedom vital continuing progress field maybe start gnu project , produce far away best c c compiler unix , mention valuable utilities hackers make significant contributions without selling ideals bill gates , grossly inferior software onto pc market ten years , ever hacker , deserves name annals computer , like running linux x countless packages , without paying dime hand , problem purchasing motif good software , long microsoft n't fouled inept input 2 cents worth , flames patiently ignored \) jean jean computer science , illinois state university e mail ilstu edu
egret wet uucp \( thomas helke \) subject download files graphics \? organization wetware diversions , san francisco lines 21 find files graphics people downloading unix systems \? , download \? complete beginner \( obviously \) , please baby step process first , n't see amongst newsgroups anything remotely like gif , tif , compiled shareware program \? thanks advance information give \( know unix command , ftp , allow , first need know go find file want download via ftp , etc thomas helke egret wet uucp wq !
isis msstate edu \( david dumas \) subject find someone digitize ives \? \? \? \? organization j random misconfigured site x posted isis msstate edu nntp posting host sol ctr columbia edu lines 16 anyone know ives digitized use desktop publishing \? particularly interested scenes anyone know get \( fee \) good , digitized river boat image \? thank , david dumas david dumas isis msstate edu david dumas isis msstate edu
blue knight bknight jpr com \( german \) subject help needed dxf iff distribution world x newssoftware grn beta 1 16g \( 13 02 93 \) michael b smith mike schwartz mime version 1 0 content type text plain charset iso 8859 1 content transfer encoding 8bit organization blue knight productions lines 20 article 1993apr30 news columbia edu ph14 cunixb cc columbia edu \( pei hsieh \) writes hi sorry faq , conversion utilities available autodesk dxf amiga iff format \? checked comp graphics faq number sites , far banana please e mail dxf changed iff format changed object format used one 3d programs amiga tools around comercial conversion german blue knight bknight jpr com blue knight productions genie blue knight \( 718 \) 321 graphic design video productions
jackson sandman ece clarkson edu \( peter jackson , , , \) subject hacker ethic go \? nntp posting host sandman ece clarkson edu organization clarkson university lines 31 article 1993may1 1 aurora alaska edu , aurora alaska edu put thus hacker ethic gone \? still exists , \? , exist , call hackers allowing perpetuate \? creating new , innovative , interesting ideas stop sos maintaining choke hold computer industry \? since posted comp ai , assume ai angle hacking ai students 're really supposed something else , e g thesis research write , getting pet programs run properly , etc one gets much glory hacking , one gets money producing good free software requires enormous investment time resources many people , want , afford particularly recession addition , last 10 years , think de emphasis producing running programs ai research , greater emphasis formal approaches problem solving students proving instead writing programs conference year two ago , johann de suggested everyone 'get back write programs demonstrate ideas say i'm inclined agree \( n't claim , n't think invalidates remarks i'm sure n't whole story \) peter jackson , dept electrical computer eng , clarkson university opinions expressed employer organization second violin , fiddling firefighters \( rome branch \)
mac utkvx bitnet \( richard j mcdougald \) subject help needed dxf iff organization university tennessee lines 30 article blue knight bknight jpr com blue knight bknight jpr com \( german \) writes article 1993apr30 news columbia edu ph14 cunixb cc columbia edu \( pei hsieh \) writes hi sorry faq , conversion utilities available autodesk dxf amiga iff format \? checked comp graphics faq number sites , far banana please e mail dxf changed iff format changed object format used one 3d programs amiga tools around comercial conversion hijaak claims convert dxf iff , although hijaak claims stuff never gotten work \( example , long ago tried convert iff files amiga video toaster \( using , pc could read disks \) int targa files hijaak made gorgeous 1 5 megabyte targa files totally black ! mac mcdougald opinions expressed herein photography center necessarily \( actually , univ tenn knoxville almost certainly \) mac utkvx utk edu university tennessee mac utkvx bitnet \( 615 974 \) things like \( 615 974 \) fax 've ever
vm univie ac subject tel 3d scanners needed ! organization university vienna lines 13 nntp posting host helios edvz univie ac hello , need make 3d scans would like phone numbers companies midwest make scans , numbers companies make \( ie cyberware \) anyone idea much single scan costs best format save \? sure software platform using , probably either wavefront think spline based format would best please forward numbers personally problems accessing usenet lately thanks advance ! patrick edvz univie ac st paul mn
scr siemens com \( anthony \) subject oh make mind ! ! \( xv problems \) nntp posting host siemens com organization siemens lines 11 \) xv load 24 bit image , display 's 24 bit glory 24 bit x displays b \) operations \( crop , dither , smooth , etc \) supported 24 bit images hard would \? type xloadimage getx11 instead xv 8
rws2v uvacs cs virginia edu \( richard stoakley \) subject 3d unix keywords 3d , three , organization university virginia computer science department lines 7 could someone please post list good three run sparc stations preferably cheap thanks richard rws2v virginia edu
ulkyvx louisville edu \( kendall sears \) subject hacker ethic go \? lines 46 nntp posting host ulkyvx louisville edu organization university louisville hacker ethic go \? hackers 70 's comfortably employed supporting families next generation takes radical lead n't look radicalism among us old ones 're gone perhaps us hackers become \( ick \) professionals \? noticed associates progression hackers computer professionals rather occurs series things happen 1 \) one 's ego one 's talent knowledge 2 \) one 's financial situation takes precedence 3 \) change priorities \( esp family \) possibly leading 2 \) 4 \) hacker 's attitude makes shift fun work 5 \) one 's burns away creativity needed hobby biggest killer \( imo \) 6 \) one 's dreams \( sadly \) shattered hard rocks society 's version reality without dream motivation dies , without motivation effort seems useless another set problems stems children us remember several completely different computer systems , children growing choices \( msdos mac amiga \) enjoy diversity remember great computer early eighties forced stop using skills developed systems dead diversity systems allowed widely divergent paradigms period forced hackers continually learn new systems attempt keep mention program needed forced \( situations \) write commercial offering available children taught user mentality number us old timers replaced next generation kendall kendall sears ulkyvx louisville edu programmer child development unit amiga department pediatrics currently running 3 0 university louisville xx supporting unix sys v rev 4 life game play order win must make difference remember practice session
pbenson ecst csuchico edu \( paul benson \) subject smithsonian institution ftp address \? organization california state university , chico lines 9 distribution usa nntp posting host cscihp ecst csuchico edu know ftp address smithsonian institution one get digitized photographs , etc \? please reply email pbenson cscihp ecst csuchico edu thanks paul benson
krs allegra att com \( k r \) subject companies involved scientific visualization reply krs allegra att com organization bell laboratories lines 10 anyone list companies data visualization \( software hardware \) would like hear thanks krs k r ph \( 908 \) 582 bell laboratories , rm email krs research att com 600 mountain av murray hill , nj
csugrad cs vt edu \( chris fury \) subject help needed dxf iff lines 17 organization virginia tech computer science dept , blacksburg , va lines 17 blue knight bknight jpr com \( german \) writes dxf changed iff format changed object format used one 3d programs amiga tools around comercial conversion actually , iff format standard picture file format , sound file format , exist several formats use iff standard iff picture standard used mostly everybody form ilbm \( ilbm \) 3d iff specification know tddd , used imagine 's predecessor , turbo silver possible amiga packages use another iff spec , n't know lightwave load tddd form 's believe christopher b fury space rent csugrad cs vt edu call 1 900 information
zyeh caspian usc edu \( zhenghao yeh \) subject definition organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 14 distribution world nntp posting host caspian usc edu keywords hi ! everyone , n't clearly understand computer graphics would please give explanation \? btw , 's difference opaque surface \? thanks advance yeh usc
mksol dseg ti com \( aaron \) subject 3do \? organization texas instruments inc lines 13 names nerdc ufl edu lioness maple circa ufl edu writes someone please fill 3do thanks , bh review 3do latest wired magazine may want take trip local bookstore check \( 's cool pics \) \( n't read yet , 'd tell \) aaron
email teaser com \( pascal \) subject oak vga 1mb please , vesa tsr ! ! ! 8 \) nntp posting host teaser com organization guest france teaser , \( email \) lines 13 simple ! ! look vesa drivers vpic 6 0e package ! ! many svga card supported look favorite bbs tonight honey , received email teaser com pascal teaser les france
tgl cs cmu edu \( tom lane \) subject jpeg image compression frequently asked questions summary useful info jpeg \( jpg \) image files programs keywords jpeg , image compression , faq supersedes jpeg faq g gp cs cmu edu nntp posting host g gp cs cmu edu reply jpeg info uunet uu net organization school computer science , carnegie mellon expires mon , 31 may 1993 03 14 50 gmt lines 1034 archive name jpeg faq last modified 2 may 1993 faq article discusses jpeg image compression suggestions additions clarifications welcome new since version 18 april 1993 new version xv supports 24 bit viewing x windows new versions dvpeg image alchemy dos new versions image archiver os 2 new listing monochrome display ataris article includes following sections 1 jpeg \? 2 use jpeg \? 3 use jpeg , stick gif \? 4 well jpeg compress images \? 5 good quality settings jpeg \? 6 get jpeg software \? 6a canned software , viewers , etc 6b source code 7 's hoopla color quantization \? 8 jpeg work \? 9 lossless jpeg \? 10 argument file formats \? 11 recognize file format , \? 12 arithmetic coding \? 13 loss accumulate repeated compression decompression \? 14 rules thumb converting gif images jpeg \? sections 1 6 basic info every jpeg user needs know sections 7 14 advanced info curious article posted every 2 weeks always find latest version news answers archive rtfm mit edu \( 18 70 0 226 \) ftp , fetch pub usenet news answers jpeg faq n't ftp , send e mail mail server rtfm mit edu body send usenet news answers jpeg faq many faq articles also stored archive instructions use archive , send e mail address words help index \( quotes \) separate lines n't get reply , server may misreading return address add line path specify correct e mail address reply 1 jpeg \? jpeg \( pronounced jay peg \) standardized image compression mechanism jpeg stands joint photographic experts group , original name committee wrote standard jpeg designed compressing either full color gray scale digital images natural , real world scenes work well non realistic images , cartoons line drawings jpeg handle black white \( 1 bit per pixel \) images , handle motion picture compression standards compressing types images worked committees , named jbig mpeg respectively jpeg lossy , meaning image get decompression n't quite identical originally put algorithm achieves much compression exploiting known limitations human eye , notably fact small color details n't perceived well small details light dark thus , jpeg intended compressing images looked humans plan machine analyze images , small errors introduced jpeg may problem , even invisible eye useful property jpeg degree lossiness varied adjusting compression parameters means image maker trade file size output image quality make extremely small files n't mind poor quality useful indexing image archives , making thumbnail views icons , etc etc conversely , n't happy output quality default compression setting , jack quality satisfied , accept lesser compression 2 use jpeg \? two good reasons make image files smaller , store 24 bit per pixel color data instead 8 bit per pixel data making image files smaller big win transmitting files across networks archiving libraries images able compress 2 mbyte full color file 100 kbytes makes big difference disk space transmission time ! \( comparing gif jpeg , size ratio like four one details \) viewing software n't support jpeg directly , 'll convert jpeg format viewing manipulating images even jpeg capable viewer , takes longer decode view jpeg image view image simpler format \( gif , instance \) thus , using jpeg essentially time space tradeoff give time order store transmit image cheaply 's worth noting network phone transmission involved , time savings transferring shorter file much greater extra time decompress file 'll let arithmetic reason jpeg gradually replace gif standard usenet posting format jpeg store full color information 24 bits pixel \( 16 million colors \) instead 8 less \( 256 fewer colors \) 8 bit display hardware may seem like much advantage within couple years , though , 8 bit gif look obsolete black white macpaint format today furthermore , reasons detailed section 7 , jpeg far useful gif exchanging images among people widely varying color display hardware hence jpeg considerably appropriate gif use usenet posting standard 3 use jpeg , stick gif \? jpeg going displace gif entirely types images , gif superior image quality , file size , one first things learn jpeg kinds images apply rule thumb , jpeg superior gif storing full color gray scale images realistic scenes means scanned photographs similar material jpeg superior even n't 24 bit display hardware , lot superior \( see section 7 details \) gif significantly better images distinct colors , cartoons line drawings particular , large areas pixels exactly color compressed efficiently indeed gif jpeg ca n't squeeze files much gif without introducing visible defects sort image best kept gif form \( particular , single color borders quite cheap gif files , avoided jpeg files \) jpeg also hard time sharp edges row pure black pixels adjacent row pure white pixels , example sharp edges tend come blurred unless use high quality setting , sort thing found scanned photographs , shows fairly often gif files borders , overlaid text , etc particularly objectionable text 's pixels high gif lot small size overlaid text , n't jpeg computer drawn images \( ray traced scenes , instance \) usually fall scanned images cartoons terms complexity complex subtly rendered image , likely jpeg well goes semi realistic artwork \( fantasy drawings \) plain black white \( two level \) images never converted jpeg need least 16 gray levels jpeg useful gray scale images also noted gif lossless gray scale images 256 levels , jpeg existing library gif images , may wonder whether convert jpeg lose little image quality \( section 7 , argues jpeg image quality superior gif , applies formats start full color original start gif , 've already lost great deal information jpeg make things worse \) however , disk space savings may justify converting anyway decision 'll make convert gif library jpeg , see section 14 hints prepared leave images gif format , since gifs convert well 4 well jpeg compress images \? pretty darn well sample file sizes image handy , full color image ship harbor first three files comparison purposes rest created free jpeg software described section 6b file size bytes comments ship ppm original file ppm format \( compression 24 bits 3 bytes per pixel , plus bytes overhead \) ship ppm z ppm file passed unix compress compress n't accomplish lot , 'll note text oriented compressors give similar results ship gif converted gif ppmquant fs 256 savings result losing color info gif saves 8 bits pixel , 24 \( see sec 7 \) ship cjpeg q 95 \( highest useful quality setting \) indistinguishable 24 bit original , least ship cjpeg q 75 \( default setting \) look mighty darn close distinguish original , even screen ship cjpeg q 50 slight defects know look , could tell 's without seeing original still good image quality many recent postings usenet pictures groups ship cjpeg q 25 jpeg 's characteristic blockiness becomes apparent setting \( djpeg helps \) still , 've seen plenty usenet postings poorer image quality ship cjpeg q 5 optimize \( optimize cuts table overhead \) , perfectly satisfactory preview indexing purposes note file tiny compression ratio original 173 1 ! case jpeg make file 's factor four five smaller gif comparable quality \( q 75 file every bit good gif , better full color display \) seems typical ratio real world scenes 5 good quality settings jpeg \? jpeg compressors let pick file size vs image quality tradeoff selecting quality setting seems widespread confusion meaning settings quality 95 mean keep 95 information , claimed quality scale purely arbitrary 's percentage anything name game using jpeg pick lowest quality setting \( smallest file size \) image indistinguishable original setting vary one image another one observer another , rules thumb default quality setting \( q 75 \) often best choice setting lowest go without expecting see defects typical image try q 75 first see defects , go except experimental purposes , never go q 95 saying q 100 produce file two three times large q 95 , hardly better quality image less perfect quality begin , might able go q 50 without objectionable degradation hand , might need go higher quality setting avoid degradation second case seems apply much time converting gifs jpeg default q 75 right compressing 24 bit images , q 85 95 usually better converting gifs \( see section 14 info \) want small file \( say preview indexing purposes \) prepared tolerate large defects , q setting range 5 10 right q 2 may amusing op art \( note quality settings discussed article apply free jpeg software described section 6b , many programs based jpeg implementations , image alchemy , may use completely different quality scale programs n't even provide numeric scale , high medium low style choices \) 6 get jpeg software \? programs described section available ftp n't know use ftp , see faq article find sources \( n't direct access ftp , read ftpmail servers article \) article appears regularly news answers , get sending e mail mail server rtfm mit edu send usenet news answers finding sources body anonymous ftp list faq may also helpful 's usenet news answers ftp list faq news answers archive note list changes constantly copy couple months old , get latest jpeg faq news answers archive 6a looking canned software , viewers , etc first part list system specific programs run one kind system n't see want machine , check portable jpeg software described end list note list concentrates free shareware programs obtain internet commercial programs listed x windows xv \( shareware , 25 \) excellent viewer jpeg , gif , many image formats also format conversion simple image manipulations 's available ftp export lcs mit edu \( 18 24 0 12 \) , file contrib xv 3 00 tar z version 3 00 major upgrade support 24 bit displays many improvements however , brand new still bugs lurking prefer bleeding edge , stick version 2 21 , also available export note version 2 21 good choice 24 bit display \( 'll get 8 bit color \) , converting 24 bit images jpeg 2 21 works fine converting gif 8 bit images jpeg caution glitch version 2 21 sure check save normal size saving jpeg file , file blurry another good choice x windows john cristy 's free imagemagick package , also available export lcs mit edu , file contrib imagemagick tar z package handles many image processing conversion tasks imagemagick viewer handles 24 bit displays correctly colormapped displays , better \( though slower \) color quantization xv basic free jpeg software large , complex packages want simple image viewer , try xloadimage xli xloadimage supports jpeg latest release , 3 03 xloadimage free available export lcs mit edu , file contrib xloadimage 3 03 tar z xli variant version xloadimage , said fans somewhat faster robust original \( current xli indeed faster robust current xloadimage , least respect jpeg files , ijg v4 decoder xloadimage 3 03 using hacked v1 next xloadimage release fix \) xli also free available export lcs mit edu , file contrib xli 1 14 tar z programs said right thing 24 bit displays ms dos covers plain dos windows os 2 programs , see next headings one good choice eric praetzel 's free dvpeg , views jpeg gif files current version , 2 5 , available ftp sunee uwaterloo ca \( 129 97 50 50 \) , file pub jpeg viewers zip good basic viewer works either 286 386 486 machines user interface flashy , 's functional another freeware jpeg gif tga viewer mohammad 's hiview current version , 1 2 , available simtel20 mirror sites \( see note \) , file msdos graphics zip hiview requires 386 better cpu vcpi compatible memory manager \( qemm386 386max work windows os 2 \) hiview currently fastest viewer images bigger screen larger images , scales image fit screen \( rather using panning scrolling viewers \) may may prefer approach , 's denying slows loading large images considerably note installation bit tricky read directions carefully ! shareware alternative colorview dos \( 30 \) easier install either two freeware alternatives user interface also much looking , although personally find harder use keystrokes , inconsistent behavior faster dvpeg little slower hiview , least hardware \( images larger screen size , dvpeg colorview seem speed , faster hiview \) current version 2 1 , available simtel20 mirror sites \( see note \) , file msdos graphics zip requires vesa graphics driver n't one , look zip vesa tsr zip directory \( many recent pcs built vesa driver , n't try load vesa driver unless colorview complains driver missing \) second shareware alternative fullview , kicking around net , n't know stable archive location current \( rather old \) version inferior viewers anyway author tells new version fullview shortly submitted simtel20 archives time well known gif viewer \( cshow \) supports jpeg latest revision , 8 however , cshow 's jpeg implementation n't good 's slow \( half speed viewers \) image quality poor except hi color displays bad 'd nice see good jpeg capability cshow shareware , 25 available simtel20 mirror sites \( see note \) , file msdos gif zip due remarkable variety pc graphics hardware , one viewers might work particular machine ca n't get work , 'll need use one following conversion programs convert jpeg gif , view favorite gif viewer \( hi color hardware , n't use gif intermediate format try find targa capable viewer instead 0 right thing hi color displays \) independent jpeg group 's free jpeg converters simtel20 mirror sites \( see note \) , file msdos graphics jpeg4 zip \( zip 386 extended memory \) files dos free source code described section 6b convert jpeg gif , targa , ppm formats handmade software offers free jpeg gif conversion tools , gif2jpg jpg2gif slow limited conversion gif format particular , ca n't get 24 bit color output jpeg major advantage tools read write hsi 's proprietary jpeg format well usenet standard jfif format since hsi format files rather widespread bbses , useful capability version 2 0 tools free \( prior versions shareware \) get simtel20 mirror sites \( see note \) , file msdos graphics zip note use hsi format files posted internet , since readable non pc platforms handmade software also shareware image conversion manipulation package , image alchemy translate jpeg files \( jfif hsi formats \) many image formats also display images demo version image alchemy version 1 6 2 available simtel20 mirror sites \( see note \) , file msdos graphics zip note simtel20 internet 's key archive site pc related programs simtel20 , full name wsmr simtel20 army mil \( 192 88 110 20 \) simtel20 runs non unix system weird directory names document refers directory \( eg \) msdos graphics simtel20 , really means pd1 msdos graphics physically milnet , expect rather slow ftp transfer rates simtel20 several internet sites maintain copies \( mirrors \) simtel20 archives ftp users go one mirror sites instead popular usa mirror site oak oakland edu \( 141 210 10 117 \) , keeps simtel20 files \( eg \) pub msdos graphics ftp capability , retrieve files simtel20 e mail see informational postings comp archives msdos announce find outside usa , consult newsgroup learn nearest simtel20 mirror microsoft windows several windows programs capable displaying jpeg images \( windows viewers generally slower dos viewers hardware , due windows' system overhead note run dos conversion programs described inside windows dos window \) newest entry , free extremely fast version 1 0 available ftp rahul net , file pub bryanw pc jpeg zip requires windows 3 1 256 colors mode frills viewer bad habit hogging machine completely decodes image quality noticeably worse viewers 's fast 'll use anyway , least previewing jview freeware , fairly fast , good line help , write image windows bmp format ca n't create new jpeg files , n't view gifs jview also lacks useful features shareware viewers \( brightness adjustment \) , 's excellent basic viewer current version , 0 9 , available ftp cica indiana edu \( 129 79 20 84 \) , file pub pc win3 desktop zip \( mirrors archive found internet sites , including wuarchive wustl edu \) winjpeg \( shareware , 20 \) displays jpeg , gif , targa , tiff , bmp image files write formats , used converter nifty features including color balance adjustment slideshow current version 2 1 , available simtel20 mirror sites \( see note \) , file msdos windows3 zip \( slow 286 compatible version register , 'll get 386 version , roughly 25 faster \) colorview another shareware entry \( 30 \) early promising contender , updated time , point real advantages winjpeg want try anyway , current version 0 97 , available ftp cica indiana edu , file pub pc win3 desktop zip \( understand new version appearing authors finished colorview dos \) dvpeg \( see dos heading \) also works windows , full screen mode , window os 2 following files available hobbes nmsu edu \( 128 123 35 151 \) note check pub uploads recent versions hobbes moderator fast moving uploads permanent directories pub os2 2 x graphics zip 32 bit version free ijg conversion programs , version 4 pub os2 graphics jpeg4 16 zip 16 bit version , os 2 1 x pub os2 2 x graphics zip image archiver 1 02 image conversion viewing pm graphical interface strong conversion functions , viewing bit weaker shareware , 15 pub os2 2 x graphics zip 1 1 os 2 2 x port winjpeg , popular viewer windows \( see description windows section \) shareware , 20 pub os2 2 x graphics zip 0 85 jpeg gif bmp viewer gif viewing fast , jpeg viewing fast huge amounts ram , otherwise speed programs strong 24 bit display support shareware , 20 macintosh mac jpeg programs rely apple 's jpeg implementation , part quicktime system extension need quicktime installed use quicktime , need 68020 better cpu need running system 6 0 7 later \( 're running system 6 , must also install 32 bit quickdraw extension built system 7 \) get quicktime ftp ftp apple com , file dts mac quicktime quicktime hqx \( 11 92 , file contains quicktime 1 5 , better qt 1 0 several ways respect jpeg , marginally faster considerably less prone crash fed corrupt jpeg file however , applications seem compatibility problems qt 1 5 \) mac users keep mind quicktime 's jpeg format , pict jpeg , usenet standard jfif jpeg format \( see section 10 details \) post images usenet , make sure jfif format programs mentioned generate either format first choice probably jpegview , free program viewing images jfif format , pict jpeg format , gif format also convert two jpeg formats current version , 2 0 , big improvement prior versions get sumex aim stanford edu \( 36 44 0 6 \) , file info mac app jpeg view 20 hqx requires system 7 quicktime 8 bit displays , jpegview usually produces best color image quality currently available mac jpeg viewers jpegview view large images much less memory mac viewers fact , 's one deal jpeg images much 640x480 pixels typical 4mb mac given large image , jpegview automatically scales fit screen , rather presenting scroll bars like viewers \( zoom desired portion , though \) people like behavior , n't overall , jpegview 's user interface well thought gifconverter , shareware \( 40 \) image viewer converter , supports jfif pict jpeg , well gif several image formats latest version 2 3 2 get sumex aim stanford edu , file info mac art gif gif converter 232 hqx requires system 6 0 5 later gifconverter better jpegview plain jpeg gif viewer , much extensive image manipulation format conversion capabilities , may find worth shareware fee lot playing around images also , newest version gifconverter load save jfif images without quicktime , best bet machine old run quicktime \( 's faster quicktime \) note gifconverter runs memory trying load large jpeg , try converting file gif jpeg convert , viewing gif version jpeg convert , mac version free ijg jpeg conversion utilities , available sumex aim stanford edu , file info mac app jpeg convert 10 hqx run mac , file conversion , viewing use conjunction gif viewer previous versions faq recommended imagery jpeg v0 6 , jpeg gif converter based old version ijg code using program , definitely replace jpeg convert apple 's free program pictpixie view images jfif , quicktime jpeg , gif format , convert formats get pictpixie ftp apple com , file dts mac quicktime qt 1 0 stuff pictpixie hqx requires quicktime pictpixie intended developer 's tool , 's really best choice unless like fool around quicktime drawbacks requires lots memory , produces relatively poor color image quality anything less 24 bit display , relatively unfriendly user interface worse , pictpixie unsupported program , meaning minor bugs apple intend fix \( old version pictpixie , called , floating around net trash , 's even also , quicktime starter kit includes much cleaned descendant pictpixie called picture compressor note picture compressor free may distributed net \) storm technology 's picture decompress free jpeg viewer converter rather old program inferior programs many ways , run without system 7 quicktime , may forced use older systems \( need 32 bit quickdraw , really old machines ca n't use \) get sumex aim stanford edu , file info mac app picture decompress 201 hqx must set file type downloaded image file 'jpeg' allow picture decompress open machine old run 32 bit quickdraw \( mac plus instance \) , gifconverter choice single program jpeg viewing n't want pay gifconverter , use jpeg convert free gif viewer commercial mac applications supporting jpeg , although deal usenet standard jfif format adobe photoshop , version 2 0 1 later , read write jfif format jpeg files \( use jpeg plug acquire menu \) must set file type downloaded jpeg file 'jpeg' allow photoshop recognize amiga \( programs listed section stored aminet archive amiga physik unizh ch \( 130 60 80 80 \) many mirror sites archive try use closest one usa , good choice wuarchive wustl edu look mirrors amiga physik unizh ch \) plus excellent jpeg viewer converter , well general image manipulation tool 's cheap \( shareware , 20 \) read several formats besides jpeg current version 2 0 8 demo version available amiga physik unizh ch \( mirror sites \) , file amiga gfx edit lha demo version crop images larger 512x512 , otherwise fully functional rend24 \( shareware , 30 \) image renderer display jpeg , ilbm , gif images program used create animations , even capturing frames fly rendering packages like lightwave current version 1 05 , available amiga physik unizh ch \( mirror sites \) , file amiga gfx lha \( note although directory supposedly amigados 3 0 programs , program also run amigados 1 3 , 2 04 2 1 \) viewtek free jpeg ilbm gif anim viewer current version 1 04 , available amiga physik unizh ch \( mirror sites \) , file amiga gfx show lha 're willing spend real money , several commercial packages support jpeg two written thomas krehbiel , author rend24 viewtek cinemorph , standalone image morphing package , , impressive 24 bit image capture , conversion , editing , painting , effects package also includes cinemorph distributed great valley products art department professional \( adpro \) , inc , widely used commercial image manipulation software amigas , black belt systems , another well regarded commercial graphics package jpeg support free ijg jpeg software available compiled amigas amiga physik unizh ch \( mirror sites \) directory amiga gfx conv , file lha programs convert jpeg ppm , gif , targa formats amiga world heavily infested quick dirty jpeg programs , many based ancient beta test version free ijg jpeg software \( thanks certain magazine published disk month , without much notifying authors \) among , , , probably others even heard opinion , anything older ijg version 3 \( march 1992 \) worth disk space 's stored program , trash get something newer atari st free ijg jpeg software available compiled atari st , tt , etc , atari archive umich edu , file atari graphics zoo programs convert jpeg ppm , gif , targa formats monochrome st monitors , try , manages achieve four level grayscale effect flickering version 4 1 reads jpeg files available atari archive umich edu , file atari graphics zoo heard free shareware jpeg capable viewers ataris , surely must \? pointers appreciated acorn archimedes ! , supplied risc os 3 version 3 10 , convert view jpeg jfif format provision also made convert images jpeg , although must done rather double clicking recent versions \( since 7 11 \) shareware program translator handle jpeg , along 30 image formats older versions found archimedes bboards , current version available registering author , john , 31 , wj , enschede , netherlands price 35 dutch \( 22 10 pounds \) 's also commercial product called ! jpeg provides jpeg read write functionality direct jpeg viewing , well host image format conversion processing options expensive necessarily better programs contact dt software , , cambridge , uk tel 0223 portable software almost system none fits situation , obtain compile free jpeg conversion software described 6b 'll also need viewer program display 8 bits less , gif viewer fine display color capability , try find viewer read targa ppm 24 bit image files numerous commercial jpeg offerings , popping every day recommend spend money one unless find available free shareware software vastly slow case , purchase hardware assisted product ask pointed questions whether product complies final jpeg standard whether handle jfif file format many earliest commercial releases never compatible anyone else 's files 6b looking source code work free , portable c code jpeg compression available independent jpeg group , lead package containing source code , documentation , small test files available several places official archive site source code ftp uu net \( 137 39 1 9 192 48 96 9 \) look directory graphics jpeg current release jpegsrc v4 tar z \( compressed tar file n't forget retrieve binary mode \) retrieve file ftp uucp pc n't know cope tar z format , may prefer zip format , find simtel20 mirror sites \( see note \) , file msdos graphics zip file also available compuserve , forum \( go pics \) , library 15 , zip ftp access , retrieve source nearest comp sources misc archive version 4 appeared issues 55 72 volume 34 \( n't know retrieve comp sources misc postings , see faq article find sources , referred top section 6 \) free jpeg code provides conversion jpeg jfif format image files gif , pbmplus ppm pgm , utah rle , targa file formats core compression decompression modules easily programs , image viewers package highly portable tested many machines ranging pcs released software noncommercial commercial use companies welcome use basis jpeg related products ask royalty , although ask acknowledgement product literature \( see readme file distribution details \) hope make software industrial quality although , anything 's free , offer warranty accept liability independent jpeg group volunteer organization 'd like contribute improving software , welcome join 7 's hoopla color quantization \? people n't full color \( 24 bit per pixel \) display hardware typical display hardware stores 8 fewer bits per pixel , display 256 fewer distinct colors time display full color image , computer must map image appropriate set representative colors process called color quantization \( something misnomer , color selection would better term 're stuck standard usage though \) clearly , color quantization lossy process turns images , details color quantization algorithm much impact final image quality errors introduced jpeg \( except lowest jpeg quality settings \) since jpeg full color format , converting color jpeg image display 8 bit less hardware requires color quantization true color jpegs even feed 256 less color gif jpeg , comes 256 colors , thousands colors happens jpeg 's lossiness affects pixel little differently , two pixels started identical colors probably come slightly different colors original color gets smeared group nearby colors therefore quantization always required display color jpeg colormapped display , regardless image source way avoid quantization ask gray scale output \( incidentally , effect 's nearly meaningless talk number colors used jpeg image even attempted count number distinct pixel values , different jpeg decoders would give different results roundoff error differences occasionally see posted images described 256 color jpeg tells poster \( \) n't read faq \( b \) probably converted jpeg gif jpegs classified color gray scale \( like photographs \) , number colors n't useful concept jpeg \) hand , gif image definition already quantized 256 fewer colors \( gif definite number colors palette , format n't allow 256 palette entries \) purposes usenet picture distribution , gif advantage sender color quantization , recipients n't also disadvantage gif 're stuck sender 's quantization sender quantized different number colors display , quantize , resulting much poorer image quality quantized full color image furthermore , sender n't use high quality color quantization algorithm , 're luck reason , jpeg offers promise significantly better image quality users whose machines n't match sender 's display hardware jpeg 's full color image quantized precisely match user 's display hardware furthermore , able take advantage future improvements quantization algorithms \( lot active research area \) , purchase better display hardware , get better view jpeg images already gif , 're stuck sent 's also worth mentioning many gif viewing programs include rather shoddy quantization routines view 256 color gif 16 color ega display , example , probably getting much worse image need partly inevitable consequence two color \( one create gif , one display \) , often 's also due sloppiness jpeg conversion programs forced use high quality quantizers order get acceptable results , normal use quantize directly number colors displayed thus , jpeg likely provide better results average gif program low color resolution displays well high resolution ones ! finally , ever growing number people better 8 bit display hardware already 15 bit hi color pc displays , true 24 bit displays workstations macintoshes , etc people , gif already obsolete , cannot represent image full capabilities display jpeg images drive displays much effectively thus , jpeg around better choice gif representing images machine independent fashion 8 jpeg work \? buzz words know subsampling , discrete transforms , coefficient quantization , huffman arithmetic entropy coding article 's long enough already , i'm going say technical information , see comp compression faq available news answers archive rtfm mit edu , files pub usenet news answers compression faq part 1 3 need help using news answers archive , see top article 9 lossless jpeg \? 's great deal confusion subject jpeg committee define truly lossless compression algorithm , e , one guarantees final output bit bit identical original input however , lossless mode almost nothing common regular , lossy jpeg algorithm , offers much less compression present , implementations lossless jpeg exist , commercial saying q 100 free jpeg software get lossless image get rid deliberate information loss coefficient quantization step still good deal information loss color subsampling step \( v4 free jpeg code , also say sample 1x1 turn subsampling keep mind many commercial jpeg implementations cannot cope resulting file \) even quantization subsampling turned , regular jpeg algorithm lossless , subject roundoff errors various calculations maximum error counts one pixel value 's highly unlikely could perceived human eye , might concern machine processing image minimum loss setting , regular jpeg produces files perhaps half size uncompressed 24 bit per pixel image true lossless jpeg provides roughly amount compression , guarantees bit bit accuracy application requiring lossless storage images less 6 bits per pixel \( per color component \) , may want look jbig image compression standard performs better jpeg lossless images jpeg lossless superior jbig images 6 bits per pixel furthermore , jpeg public domain \( least huffman back end \) , jbig techniques heavily covered patents 10 argument file formats \? strictly speaking , jpeg refers family compression algorithms refer specific image file format jpeg committee prevented defining file format turf wars within international standards organizations since ca n't actually exchange images anyone else unless agree common file format , leaves us problem absence official standards , number jpeg program writers gone thing , result programs n't compatible anybody else 's closest thing de facto standard jpeg format work 's coordinated people c cube microsystems defined two jpeg based file formats jfif \( jpeg file interchange format \) , low end format transports pixels much else tiff jpeg , aka tiff 6 0 , extension aldus tiff format tiff high end format let record everything ever wanted know image , lot besides \) tiff lot complex jfif , may well prove less transportable , different vendors historically implemented slightly different incompatible subsets tiff 's likely adding jpeg mix anything improve situation formats developed input major vendors jpeg related products 's reasonably likely future commercial products adhere one standards believe usenet adopt jfif replacement gif picture postings jfif simpler tiff available tiff 6 0 spec recently officially adopted , still vague crucial details even tiff jpeg well defined , jfif format likely widely supported lowest common denominator tiff jpeg files may never transportable particular case people may interested apple 's quicktime software macintosh quicktime uses jfif compatible format wrapped inside mac specific pict structure conversion jfif quicktime jpeg pretty straightforward , several mac programs available \( see mac portion section 6a \) editor handles binary files , strip quicktime jpeg pict jfif hand see section 11 details another particular case handmade software 's programs \( gif2jpg jpg2gif image alchemy \) programs capable reading writing jfif format default , though , write proprietary format developed hsi format readable non hsi programs used usenet postings use j switch get jfif output \( applies old versions programs current releases emit jfif format default still careful post hsi format files , unless want get flamed people non pc platforms \) 11 recognize file format , \? alleged jpeg file software wo n't read , 's likely hsi format proprietary jpeg based format tell first bytes file 1 jfif standard file start characters \( hex \) ff d8 ff e0 , followed two variable bytes \( often hex 00 10 \) , followed 'jfif' 2 see ff d8 start , rest , may raw jpeg file probably jfif software 's worth try , anyway 3 hsi files start 're luck unless hsi software portions file may look like plain jpeg data , wo n't decompress properly non hsi programs 4 macintosh pict file , jpeg compressed , couple hundred bytes header followed jfif header \( scan 'jfif' \) strip everything ff d8 able read 5 anything else 's proprietary format , jpeg lucky , file may consist header raw jpeg data stream identify start jpeg data stream \( look ff d8 \) , try stripping everything uuencoded usenet postings , characteristic jfif pattern begin line c x whereas uuencoded hsi files start begin line ' learn check former , save trouble downloading non jfif files 12 arithmetic coding \? jpeg spec defines two different back end modules final output compressed data either huffman coding arithmetic coding allowed choice impact image quality , arithmetic coding usually produces smaller compressed file typical images , arithmetic coding produces file 5 10 percent smaller huffman coding \( file size numbers previously cited huffman coding \) unfortunately , particular variant arithmetic coding specified jpeg standard subject patents owned ibm , , mitsubishi thus cannot legally use arithmetic coding unless obtain licenses companies \( fair use doctrine allows people implement test algorithm , actually storing images dubious best \) least short run , recommend people worry arithmetic coding space savings n't great enough justify potential legal hassles particular , arithmetic coding used images exchanged usenet small chance legal situation may change future stay tuned details 13 loss accumulate repeated compression decompression \? would nice , compressed image jpeg , could decompress , manipulate \( crop border , say \) , recompress without image degradation beyond lost initially unfortunately case general , altered image loses information , though usually much lost first time around next best thing would decompress image recompress without changing loss , e , get identical jpeg file even true least , current free jpeg software 's essentially problem accumulation roundoff error repeatedly compress decompress , image eventually degrade see visible changes first generation output \( usually takes many cycles get visible change \) one things list see accumulation error avoided limited , optimistic case , could possibly guaranteed would compressing unmodified full color output djpeg , original quality setting , would introduce loss even simple changes cropping border could cause roundoff error degradation \( 're wondering , 's pixel block boundaries move cropped 16 pixels , might safe , 's mighty limited capability ! \) bottom line jpeg useful format archival storage transmission images , n't want use intermediate format sequences image manipulation steps use lossless format \( ppm , rle , tiff , etc \) working image , jpeg ready file away aside avoiding degradation , save lot compression decompression time way \) 14 rules thumb converting gif images jpeg \? stated earlier , lose amount image information convert existing gif image jpeg obtain original full color data gif made , 's far better make jpeg need save space gif work , suggestions getting maximum space savings minimum loss quality first rule converting gif library look jpeg , make sure happy , throwing away corresponding gif give chance conversion higher quality setting necessary gifs may better left gifs , explained section 3 particular , cartoon type gifs sixteen fewer colors n't convert well may find jpeg file reasonable quality larger gif \( check sizes \) experience date suggests large , high visual quality gifs best candidates conversion jpeg chew storage offer potential savings , convert jpeg least degradation n't waste time converting gif much 100 kbytes also , n't expect jpeg files converted gifs small created directly full color originals maintain image quality may let converted files much twice big straight jpeg files would \( e , shoot 1 2 1 3rd size gif file , 1 4th suggested earlier comparisons \) many people developed odd habit putting large constant color border around gif image useless , nearly free terms storage cost gif files free jpeg files , sharp border boundary create visible artifacts \( ghost edges \) favor crop border jpeging \( x windows system , xv 's manual automatic cropping functions painless way \) cjpeg 's default q setting 75 appropriate full color input , gif inputs , q settings 85 95 often seem necessary avoid image degradation \( apply smoothing suggested , higher q setting may necessary \) color gifs photographs complex artwork usually dithered fool eye seeing 256 colors gif actually store enlarge image , see adjacent pixels often significantly different colors normal size eye averages pixels together produce illusion intermediate color value trouble dithering , jpeg , looks like high spatial frequency color noise jpeg ca n't compress noise well resulting jpeg file larger lower image quality would gotten jpeging original full color image \( \) get around , want smooth gif image compression smoothing averages together nearby pixels , thus approximating color thought saw anyway , process getting rid rapid color changes give jpeg trouble appropriate use smoothing often let avoid using high q factor , thus reducing size compressed file , still obtaining better looking output image 'd get without smoothing v4 free jpeg software \( products based \) , simple smoothing capability built try smooth 10 converting gifs values 10 25 seem work well high quality gifs heavy handed dithering may require larger smoothing factors \( see regular fine scale patterns gif image even without enlargement , strong smoothing definitely called \) large smoothing factor blur output image , n't want image processing wizard , also smoothing separate filtering program , pnmconvol pbmplus package however , cjpeg 's built smoother lot faster pnmconvol upshot cjpeg quality 85 smooth 10 probably good starting point converting gifs really care image , 'll want check results maybe try settings information jpeg general free jpeg software particular , contact independent jpeg group jpeg info uunet uu net tom lane organizer , independent jpeg group internet tgl cs cmu edu bitnet tgl cs cmu edu carnegie
grady netcom com \( 1016 2ef221 \) subject hacker ethic go \? organization capriccioso x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 18 kendall sears \( ulkyvx louisville edu \) wrote biggest killer \( imo \) 6 \) one 's dreams \( sadly \) shattered hard rocks society 's version reality without dream motivation dies , without motivation effort seems useless actually possibilities one practice hacker become good powerful manipulating data streams goes simply underground possessing true power perhaps need impress anyone grady netcom com 2ef221 15 e2 ad d3 d1 c6 f3 fc 58 ac f7 3d 4f 01 1e 2f
uxa cso uiuc edu \( richard \) subject adobe photo shop type software unix x motif platforms \? organization university illinois urbana lines 6 appsoft image available nextstep image processing program similar adobe photoshop reviewed april '93 issue publish ! magazine
adobe com \( stern \) subject adobe photo shop type software unix x motif platforms \? organization adobe systems incorporated lines 24 charles boesel writes article world std com \( sci image processing , comp graphics \) , wdm world std com \( wayne michael \) writes searching quality image enhancement manipulation package unix x motif platforms comparable adobe photo shop mac stuff deleted understand adobe working making photoshop available sgi indigo , rumor would n't bet see going release illustrator sgi real soon illustrator sgi shipping product adobe sgi announced photoshop ported sgi machines announcement made adobe sun sun platforms dates announced best knowledge stern adobe com \( 415 \) 962 adobe systems , charleston rd , pob 7900 , mountain view , ca 94039 7900 're couple little goats \( jeff \? \)
cs monash edu au \( walker \) subject hacker ethic go \? organization computer science , monash university , australia lines 11 cheerful note , perhaps hacking n't completely dead someone else said , take gnu offerings example free , redistributable often better commercial stuff take also number papers published every year fields computer science vast majority papers detail original work real , often exceptional merit authors sharing knowledge fun ,
christen astro ocis temple edu \( carl christensen \) subject hacker ethic go \? organization temple university lines 14 nntp posting host astro ocis temple edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 think main reason good old hacker days young \( er \) world , computer widespread increased popularity pc come plethora mundane business uses required practical minded narrower focused programmers hacker get good job programming databases programs \? basically , yuppies caught disciplined hackers , molded image carl christensen , , , dept computer science christen astro ocis temple edu temple university curiouser curiouser ! lc ``` philadelphia , pa usa
mach1 wlu ca \( john \) subject wanted 3d rendering lib pc x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 organization wilfrid laurier university lines 19 one know decent quality library routines performing 3d graphics modelling pc \? ideally routines would application program requirements \( wish list \) flat surface modelling \( simple phong shading optional \) ability plot hidden line drawings texture mapping procedural bit map modeling light sources \( local , distant , spot lights \) ray tracing radiosity \( optional \) comments would appreciated john mach1 wlu ca phone \( 519 \) 888 john mach1 wlu ca
walsh acc admin stolaf edu \( brian l walsh \) subject vesa driver xga 2 organization st olaf college , mn lines 6 heard vesa driver xga 2 card available compuserve got card , wondering driver available ftp site anywhere news service erratic lately please e mail walsh stolaf edu thanks advance
rob rjck uucp \( robert j c kyanko \) subject help world screen 4x4 matrix organization neptune software inc orlando , fl lines 12 need help creating 4x4 perspective matrix 'd like use x , , z , w texture mapping code got graphics gems many books talk , none simple plain english graphics gems , i'm talking page 678 'd like perspective matrix handles different field views aspect course thank 's help yes , course everything say personal opinion ! robert j c kyanko \( rob rjck oau org rob rjck uucp \)
netcom com \( access bus industry gp \) subject access bus \( access bus software creator 's contest \) organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 92 intro access bus \( access bus software creator 's contest announcement \) access bus \? access bus new open industry standard computer peripheral connectivity access bus serial protocol uses simple , low cost i2c technology link multiple devices single pc port peripheral devices keyboards keypads , \( mice , trackballs , joysticks \) , printers , vr gloves , , sensors , data transmitters others easily daisy chained host pc applications cad cam , data acquisition , simulation , virtual reality , multiple player single pc games , education many , many take advantage access bus , technology puts plug play every pc access bus offers advantages end users developers systems peripherals multiple devices connect host computer one port common communication methods number device types lead simplified hardware software development open standard , access bus enables cross platform use device access bus technological description access bus technology open specification , enabling anyone implement host systems peripheral devices without fee royalty access bus bus topology architecture , single host accommodate 125 peripheral devices access bus data rate 100 sec access bus physical layer access bus serial bus architecture , based i2c hardware protocol , one data line one clock line standard low cost i2c microcontrollers handle bit level handshaking , including automatic arbitration clock synchronization access bus software protocols access bus communication protocol composed three levels i2c protocol , base protocol , application protocol i2c protocol simple efficient protocol defines arbitration among contending masters without losing data i2c provides cooperative synchronization bus partners different clock rates bus transactions include addressing , framing bits bytes , byte acknowledgment receiver base protocol establishes host computer multiple peripherals host becomes access bus manager base protocol defines format access bus message envelope , i2c bus transaction additional semantics , including checksum unique features base protocol auto addressing hot plugging auto addressing assigns devices unique bus addresses , without need setting jumpers switches hot plugging ability attach detach devices system running , without rebooting application protocol highest level access bus protocol defines message semantics specific particular types devices type requires different application protocol three broad device types identified keyboards , , text devices access bus support pc three levels access bus protocol supported pc add card implements physical layer uses base protocol communicate physical access bus devices access bus manager tsr dos dll windows 3 1 controls operation physical layer interacts access bus device drivers drivers available multiple access bus keyboards , printers dos windows 3 1 also available c language source code examples interface applications device drivers contact \( access bus industry group \) postal address 370 altair way , suite 215 , sunnyvale , ca 94086 internet email netcom com fax \( 408 \) 991 voice \( 408 \) 991
ijs si subject papers vol 17 2 originator uwaterloo ca organization jozef stefan institute , ljubljana , slovenia lines 69 invitation send articles informatica magazine first fully international issue published echoes quite favourable information , contact \( ijs si \) dear colleague , april 25 , 1993 number 1 volume 17 informatica print receive week see , journal structured following way editorial \( first page \) profiles \( second page biography editor , issue , terry \) edited part papers \( pp 3 80 \) mission research reports \( plan knowledge archives project japan csli stanford , pp 81 100 \) news announcements \( pp 101 108 \) structure mentioned give suggestion could help make contents journal significant , diverse , interesting , bringing views discourse great emphasis given called editorial page page expresses opinion \( belief \) writing editor problems within scope computing informatics , extending concerning disciplines , e g , advanced ai , cognitive sciences , mind , concerned neural sciences , advanced technology \( e g \) , etc asked professor terry write page number 2 certainly would appreciate much get suggestions possible offers editors , like express strong \( directed \) beliefs concerning future development area question second page number editor 's profile published aim profile twofold show professional achievements , interests , scientific , philosophical orientation one side life story environments editors lived live side kind story instructive , adequately faced , contributing understanding circumstances editors act live edited part \( edited papers \) still critical would like stock accepted papers advance , issuing dates particular number fixed \( e g january , april , july , october \) situation right , ask help contributions colleagues , collaborators , students , etc critical views contemporary development computing informatics appreciated special emphasis given also fresh ideas coming circulation different professional communities reports different occasions \( , conferences , meetings , etc \) particularly new books , papers , interesting events welcome send news immediately \( also secretary \) e mail hand , send books publications \( annual reports , journals , calls papers , etc \) reviewing publishing informatica editorial staff manage rest e mail functioning satisfactorily , please use every respect submit editorial notes , profiles , reports , news even complete papers written standard latex format \( especially formulas \) received several final \( corrected \) texts number 1 different sites \( us , russia , etc \) way , compose reports already typed texts , using choice editing , submit contact person \( ijs si \) , always disposal , receive prompt confirmation information concerning common interest job end , please forget need cooperation help every mentioned respect aim informatica open various possibilities communication concerning strong scientific philosophical orientations well coming , still , way become significant please , apprehend give proposals , suggestions , , certainly , contributions via e mail means sincerely , anton p editor chief
cse unsw edu au \( w austin \) subject anti aliasing raytracing question nntp posting host rouge spectrum cs unsw oz au reply cse unsw edu au \( w austin \) organization none lines 20 article dl ac uk g coulter daresbury ac uk writes hi everyone someone could answer simple query raytracing anti aliasing stuff deleted similiar question relating anti friend asked posted knowledgable group i'm sorry faq anti methods persistance vision polyray use \? thank advance either email reply \( flame faq \) \)
wnkretz ikesg1 energietechnik uni stuttgart de \( oliver kretzschmar \) subject need c algorithm , decide whether 3d point inside space , defined 6 planes organization ike lines 31 distribution world nntp posting host ikesg1 energietechnik uni stuttgart de hey , looking c algorithm , decide , whether 3d point inside space defined 8 x 3d points space defined 8 x 3d points , mean space defined 6 closed 3d meshes defined 8 points like simple example , sides parallel , problem , sides non parallel opposite sides must size etc please mail informations ! thanks great efforts oliver name kretzschmar inst ike university stuttgart phone 49 711 685 2130 pfaffenwaldring 31 fax 49 711 685 2010 7000 stuttgart 80 email wnkretz ikesg1 energietechnik uni stuttgart de
gas vm \( geir \) subject help world screen 4x4 matrix organization norwegian defence research establishment , , norway lines 26 nntp posting host reply rob rjck uucp 's message tue , 11 may 1993 19 32 54 gmt article rjck uucp rob rjck uucp \( robert j c kyanko \) writes need help creating 4x4 perspective matrix 'd like use x , , z , w texture mapping code got graphics gems many books talk , none simple plain english graphics gems , i'm talking page 678 'd like perspective matrix handles different field views aspect course thank 's help cos \( alpha 2 \) horizontal sin \( alpha 2 \) cb2 cos \( beta 2 \) vertical sin \( beta 7 2 \) zf far clipping value zn near clipping value matrix 0 0 0 0 cb2 0 0 0 0 zf \( zf zn \) 1 0 0 zn zf \( zf zn \) 0 geir \( geir vm \) phone 47 63 \( office \) 47 63 \( home \)
chandra sbi com \( chandra salomon brothers inc , ny \) subject graphics library \( gl \) hp sun keywords gl lines 10 nntp posting host sbi com looking gl source code , developed silicon graphics \( sgi \) would like compile sun hp 9000 anyone already supporting gl hp sun , please respond also please respond anyone knows source code available thank chandra sbi com jon sbi com
ps unizh ch \( \) subject svga hicolor \? organization university zurich , switzerland x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 16 johan conroy \( \) \( babel ee ac za \) wrote question svga cards tseng 4000 svga 1mb memory 3x 6 bit far know display , display 640x480 , pixel bit maps card \? least , hardware capable supporting mode know nothing video bios , though , \? silly \( fool proof \) way install windows colors driver display pictures windows cheese , serge p
brian ucsf edu \( brian \) subject 3d images organization utexas mail news gateway lines 9 nntp posting host cs utexas edu anyone around point information regarding stereoscopic images \? believe saw show room texas \( lone star illusions \) amazing 've heard created simple graphic program anyone images digitized \? \? really want find much thanks brian ucsf edu \( please reply address \)
chu torreypinesca ncr com \( patrick chu \) subject compositing pictures pc \? organization ncr \( torrey pines development center \) disclaimer posting necessarily reflect opinions ncr lines 16 wondering anyone knows graphics package pc compositing series pictures \? mean compositing , say live video clip \( digitized \) panning around living room , computer generated bird flying around screen want combine two series pictures everywhere bird frames black , want living room picture show yes , realize genlock , genlock , want able manual compositing also 's ok composite one frame time assumed 'd anyway able composite series frames would even better 've looked around n't found pc package perform help , please !
gloster inference com \( vance gloster \) subject compositing pictures pc \? organization inference corporation lines 28 nntp posting host fourier inference com reply chu torreypinesca ncr com 's message sat , 15 may 93 00 16 31 gmt article 1993may15 torreypinesca ncr com chu torreypinesca ncr com \( patrick chu \) writes wondering anyone knows graphics package pc compositing series pictures \? mean compositing , say live video clip \( digitized \) panning around living room , computer generated bird flying around screen want combine two series pictures everywhere bird frames black , want living room picture show yes , realize genlock , genlock , want able manual compositing also 's ok composite one frame time assumed 'd anyway able composite series frames would even better 've looked around n't found pc package perform help , please ! get live animation computer generated animation autodesk animator fli flc format , autodesk animator take one animation , make certain color clear , overlay another animation way right convert avi mpg files animator files animator also import series gif files create animation , video capture stuff create might work vance gloster gloster inference com
uni mannheim de \( \) subject tga viewer ati ultra organization uni mannheim lines 12 nntp posting host uni mannheim de x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 hello , subject line says i'm looking tga file viewer ati ultra card support true color modes , course someone knows find one via ftp , please let know thanx oliver
cco caltech edu \( mark adler \) subject gamma correction organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 5 nntp posting host sandman caltech edu someone knows 're talking add faq entry gamma correction \? thanks mark
carlos carlos jpr com \( carlos dominguez \) subject hacker ethic go \? reply carlos carlos jpr com organization private helldiver usenet system , brooklyn , ny , usa lines 38 x newsreader helldiver 1 07 \( waffle 1 65 \) 243 dorsai dorsai org dorsai dorsai org \( charles \) writes hacker ethic alive well know speak , answer screw 'em make feel right amen learned example , specifically \) say keep faith , others likewise dorsai leads way unlike services commercial nature , dorsai community based service others charge monthly fees access , dorsai accepts donations afford contribute systems n't respond user input , dorsai systems sell hardware profit , dorsai hardware community service groups , individuals could n't afford normally dorsai lives due hacker ethic charles , jack , skip , , ira , mark , david etc etc etc nights days working equipment thats assembled embassy , \( modifying ever else available work first time \) order keep slip line heres bud i'm one decided stay , damn glad \) carlos dominguez sys admin , owner , \( \) ooo \( \) ooo root carlos uucp uupsi ! ! carlos ! carlos ask helldiver carlos carlos jpr com \( guaranteed address \)
plains nodak edu \( daniel \) subject vga graphics library keywords c , library , graphics article ns1 organization north dakota higher education computing network lines 11 nntp posting host plains nodak edu article uucp bill uucp \( bill sheppard \) writes \) many high end graphics cards come c source code basic graphics \) sorts things \( change colors , draw points lines polygons fills , etc \) \) library exist generic vga graphics cards chips , hopefully \) public domain \? would purpose compiling non dos \) operating system running standard pc check server code x11r5 \( xfree86 \) daniel un \? x \( \) electrical engineering plains nodak edu shalom , north dakota
philabs philips com \( kim tan \) subject autodesk bbs \? organization philips laboratories , briarcliff , new york lines 7 autodesk bbs \?
hawk depaul edu \( \) subject siggraph online experimental publication available nntp posting host hawk depaul edu organization depaul university , chicago lines 14 try publications may 93 online siggraph org 's !
santafe edu \( boss hogg \) subject pov animating organization santa fe institute lines 20 nntp posting host sanjuan santafe x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 attempt animation pov created two little programs one c program perform morph two points given amount frames morph write points , function \( translate , rotate , etc \) file perl script read list functions insert pov file given line hoped would let simple animation however , discovered simply performing incremental rotations object spin stationary object actually rotate object axis know easy way around would first translate object origin perform rotation move back know must another way around thought perhaps created objects origin translated new point done rotation , could cause behavior however occurs objects translated help appreciated bbs santafe edu
brennan hal edu subject gifs \? \? organization university lines 14 nntp posting host hal edu gophers bumped one nih database included images gif format yet worked kinks getting gopher client call x viewer , figure majority users x11 environment instead using dos ms kermit kermit supporting emulation graphics display , anyone know package would allow tek display gif image \? would use local population plug something sort command instead xview xloadimage andrew \( brennan hal edu \)
zen holonet net \( dick \) subject products handle hdtv moving \( 180mb sec \) nntp posting host zen holonet net organization holonet national internet access system 510 704 1058 modem lines 48 co jp writes hi , 'd like know system \( cpu hd array framebuffer \) play record hdtv quality moving picture realtime hdtv 6mb frame , recording playing moving picture need 180mb sec bandwidth i'm thinking treat raw data compressed finding disk array 180mb sec difficult fastest ones know maximum strategy \( ibm also sells \) attach 144 mb sec \( 64 bit \) kinds data rates need scsi connections latest model , raid 5 model gen 4 90 mb sec think may limitation channel customer needs exceeded speed since older model faster also idle \( must working newer products might faster \) small company might able ask custom interfaces still marketed older , faster model ago maximum strategy , inc 801 court milpitas , ca sales com might still want look compression difficult keep bus fully working times sustained throughput might come close maximum burst rate interesting problem tell us \? anyone advise kind product look , please e mail vendor 's e mail address , price products , actual performance data products , info help thanks advance , kaz sato , tokyo , japan e mail co jp dick editor , independent raid report \( 510 \) 938
p0 f0 org subject wanted mpeg description sources encoders decoders reply p0 f0 org organization asa trading company \( gate \) lines 7 please help mpeg description sources decoders encoders great thanks advance maximus 2 01wb origin mister bbs \( 22 23 0 \)
zippy cyberden sf ca us subject gif reply zippy cyberden sf ca us organization creations lines 11 far simply mapping logo whatever onto cube sphere , 's quite easy either copy gif want mapped map directory add map path directory currently go materials editor make new material bit map , voila h e b e r e n zippy cyberden sf ca us cyberden public access waffle usenet system 415 472
kyle wam umd edu \( kyle xavier \) subject hacker ethic go \? organization university maryland , college park lines 41 nntp posting host rac2 wam umd edu article vxcrna cern ch filipe vxcrna cern ch \( vinci \) writes blah blah talking hackers know wow ! new proof np complete problem , guys really got stuff together ! base step deleted bad inductive step anyway , poor , bad bad surgeons thieves , assertion hacker thief unsupported argument , imho narrower view hacker , associated computing environment , dishonest expert widespread inductive hypothesis therefore conclude call hacker , somebody perceives thief , person belongs small group computer knowledge , enough know wider \( original \) meaning word course , one always know disregard nonetheless , equate hacker thief , giving substance mr humpty 's assertion , even though kind reverse way fodder step finally , true hacker name one , title bestowed users large , sign truly great hacker introduced someone says , know thing two , people always exagerate \) filipe santos \( english first language , forgetful mistakes ! \) like mother always said , ca n't say something nice ca n't say something right \? signature file think
hardy u washington edu \( \) subject pov tga organization university washington , seattle lines 10 distribution world reply u washington edu nntp posting host hardy u washington edu i'm slight problem pov raytracer i'm sure correct group post create tga files unix machine using pov download display pc , 're listed bad files create file pc , displays fine unix tga 's incompatible pc \? easy solution problem would unix targa gif converter anyone know could find one \? help subject appreciated kevin
lioness maple circa ufl edu subject tex texture map format \? organization center instructional research computing activities lines 9 reply lioness ufcc ufl edu nntp posting host maple circa ufl edu avalon today found texture maps tex txc format , something 've never encountered obviously tex latex files clue convert something reasonable , please let know brian
graeme labtam labtam oz au \( graeme gill \) subject gamma correction organization labtam australia pty ltd , melbourne , australia summary faq contribution gamma lines 184 article gap caltech edu , cco caltech edu \( mark adler \) writes someone knows 're talking add faq entry gamma correction \? thanks get regular questions gamma correction since go great pains deal properly xli \( image loader program maintain \) explanation often use answer questions might suitable inclusion faq graeme gill note gamma correction images author graeme w gill graeme labtam oz au date 93 5 16 gamma stuff anyway \? although would nice think image image , lot complications whole bunch different image formats \( gif , jpeg , tiff etc etc \) , whole lot technical stuff makes dealing images bit complicated gamma one things 've ever downloaded images bbs net , 've probably noticed \( image viewing programs \) images look ok , look dark , look light \? may ask , gamma correction \( lack \) need gamma correction \? gamma correction needed nature crts \( cathode ray tubes monitors usually used viewing images \) sort real live scene turn computer image measuring amount light coming point scene , created linear un gamma corrected image good thing many ways manipulate image values image file light \( ie adding work like real light real world \) take image file turn pixel value voltage feed crt , find crt n't give amount light proportional voltage amount light coming phosphor screen depends voltage something like light voltage crt gamma dump nice linear image crt , image look much dark fix gamma correct image first need opposite crt image , things cancel , get want image gamma corrected image image \( 1 crt gamma \) crts , crt gamma somewhere 1 0 3 0 , seem complicated \? problem display programs gamma correction also sources images give linear images \( video cameras video signals general \) , lot images already gamma correction done , rarely sure much try display one images program gamma correction , image gets corrected twice looks way light display one images program n't gamma correction , look vaguely right , perfect , gamma correction exactly right particular crt whose fault \? really three things one display programs n't gamma correction properly another image formats n't specify standard gamma , n't way recording gamma correction third thing many people understand gamma correction , create lot images varying gamma 's least two file formats right thing utah graphics toolkit rle format semi standard way recording gamma image jfif file standard \( uses jpeg compression \) specifies image encoded must gamma 1 0 \( ie linear image everyone obeys rules \) image \( instance xli x11 image utility \) allow specify gamma monitor using , individual gamma values image trying view image viewers \( eg xv another x11 image program \) utilities \( eg pbm toolkit \) provide ways changing gamma image , figure overall gamma correction , allowing gamma correction image , gamma correction need suite crt monitor note xv 2 21 n't provide easy way modifying gamma image need adjust r , g b curves appropriate gamma controls altering intensity hsv controls n't right thing , fails take account effect gamma h tends give tint image figure viewer , gamma screen \? simplest way try loading file jpg \( provided xli distribution \) , jfif jpeg format file containing two grayscale ramps ramps chosen look linear human eye , one using continuous tones , using dithering viewer right thing gamma corrects images , two ramps look symmetrical , point look equally bright almost exactly half way top bottom \( find point helps move away little screen , de focus eyes bit \) viewer n't gamma correction , left hand ramp long dark part short white part , point equal brightness center viewer way setting right amount gamma correction display , equal brightness point center increase gamma , decrease center value usually around 2 2 xli instance , adjust display gamma flag , 've got right , set display gamma environment variable profile figure gamma image \? tricky bit general rule seems lot true color \( ie 24 bit , ppm jpg \) images gamma 1 0 \( linear \) , although many gamma correction seems majority pseudo color images \( ie 8 bit images color maps gif etc \) gamma corrected degree viewer gamma correction linear images look good , gamma corrected images look light viewer n't gamma correction , linear images look dark , gamma corrected images ok linear images sometimes good thing one reason many high quality formats \( video \) use gamma correction actually makes better use storage medium human eye logarithmic response light , gamma correction similar compression characteristic means images could make better use 8 bits per color \( instance \) , used gamma correction implication though , every time want image processing convert 8 bit image 12 linear bits retain accuracy since little popular software , none popular image formats agree standard gamma correction factor , difficult justify gamma corrected images popular level image formats particular gamma , image manipulation software takes care use extra precision dealing internal data , gamma corrected distribution images would good thing \( told kodak photocd format instance , standard gamma correction factor enables get highest quality bits used hold image \)
j newcastle ac uk \( j \) subject help rectangle parallelogram nntp posting host organization university newcastle upon tyne , uk ne1 7ru lines 56 hope someone help following problem i'm sure must known solution given rectangle defined x x x x constant parallelogram defined c1 x b c1 c2 c x c2 c1 , c2 , , b , c , constants b ! c \( e parallel lines \) equal area intersection \? i'm general algorithm suitable rectangles described equations moment looks like i'm going look possible cases examine seperately e g 1 \) rectangle parallelogram 2 \) parallelogram rectangle 3 \) two corners parallelogram inside rectangle origin x x 4 \) two corners parallelogram outside rectangle hope someone help many thanks advance , dave e mail j durham ac uk ps please cc replies e mail
powlesla acs ucalgary ca \( jim powlesland \) subject pict , epsf , etc map italy nntp posting host acs ucalgary ca organization university calgary , alberta lines 16 article bitnet bitnet writes anybody know get graphic \( mac pict , epsf , tiff , gif , whatever \) italy \? i'm looking picture map italy \( even map italy showing states provinces \( \? \) freehand 3 1 windows clip art collection corel draw 3 0 clip art outline map italy jim powlesland internet powlesla acs ucalgary ca academic computing services voice \( 403 \) 220 university calgary message \( 403 \) 220 6201 calgary , alberta canada t2n 1n4 fax \( 403 \) 282 9199
powlesla acs ucalgary ca \( jim powlesland \) subject comp graphics faq nntp posting host acs ucalgary ca organization university calgary , alberta lines 8 comp graphics faq , \? jim powlesland internet powlesla acs ucalgary ca academic computing services voice \( 403 \) 220 university calgary message \( 403 \) 220 6201 calgary , alberta canada t2n 1n4 fax \( 403 \) 282 9199
nusunix1 nus sg \( wai ming \) subject help animation pcx , gif files organization national university singapore x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 15 hi , 've series images sun raster formats 've converted pcx formats \( conversion others like gif well \) would like know software able animation formats , record animation onto video tape thank , wai ming internet nus sg national university singapore bitnet nusvm nus sg
beyer unit \( paal beyer \) subject information bmp files \? organization norwegian institute technology lines 27 article 17 med ac za , med ac za \( charles \) writes anybody help information bmp file format \? please mail directly med ac za help appreciated charles also looking , come nothing looked ftp ncsa uiuc edu supposed lot image specs email preferred enough interest , post summary lise unit
tgl cs cmu edu \( tom lane \) subject jpeg image compression frequently asked questions summary useful info jpeg \( jpg \) image files programs keywords jpeg , image compression , faq supersedes jpeg faq g gp cs cmu edu nntp posting host g gp cs cmu edu reply jpeg info uunet uu net organization school computer science , carnegie mellon expires mon , 14 jun 1993 03 21 00 gmt lines 1041 archive name jpeg faq last modified 16 may 1993 faq article discusses jpeg image compression suggestions additions clarifications welcome new since version 2 may 1993 added info next article includes following sections 1 jpeg \? 2 use jpeg \? 3 use jpeg , stick gif \? 4 well jpeg compress images \? 5 good quality settings jpeg \? 6 get jpeg software \? 6a canned software , viewers , etc 6b source code 7 's hoopla color quantization \? 8 jpeg work \? 9 lossless jpeg \? 10 argument file formats \? 11 recognize file format , \? 12 arithmetic coding \? 13 loss accumulate repeated compression decompression \? 14 rules thumb converting gif images jpeg \? sections 1 6 basic info every jpeg user needs know sections 7 14 advanced info curious article posted every 2 weeks always find latest version news answers archive rtfm mit edu \( 18 70 0 226 \) ftp , fetch pub usenet news answers jpeg faq n't ftp , send e mail mail server rtfm mit edu body send usenet news answers jpeg faq many faq articles also stored archive instructions use archive , send e mail address words help index \( quotes \) separate lines n't get reply , server may misreading return address add line path specify correct e mail address reply 1 jpeg \? jpeg \( pronounced jay peg \) standardized image compression mechanism jpeg stands joint photographic experts group , original name committee wrote standard jpeg designed compressing either full color gray scale digital images natural , real world scenes work well non realistic images , cartoons line drawings jpeg handle black white \( 1 bit per pixel \) images , handle motion picture compression standards compressing types images worked committees , named jbig mpeg respectively jpeg lossy , meaning image get decompression n't quite identical originally put algorithm achieves much compression exploiting known limitations human eye , notably fact small color details n't perceived well small details light dark thus , jpeg intended compressing images looked humans plan machine analyze images , small errors introduced jpeg may problem , even invisible eye useful property jpeg degree lossiness varied adjusting compression parameters means image maker trade file size output image quality make extremely small files n't mind poor quality useful indexing image archives , making thumbnail views icons , etc etc conversely , n't happy output quality default compression setting , jack quality satisfied , accept lesser compression 2 use jpeg \? two good reasons make image files smaller , store 24 bit per pixel color data instead 8 bit per pixel data making image files smaller big win transmitting files across networks archiving libraries images able compress 2 mbyte full color file 100 kbytes makes big difference disk space transmission time ! \( comparing gif jpeg , size ratio like four one details \) viewing software n't support jpeg directly , 'll convert jpeg format viewing manipulating images even jpeg capable viewer , takes longer decode view jpeg image view image simpler format \( gif , instance \) thus , using jpeg essentially time space tradeoff give time order store transmit image cheaply 's worth noting network phone transmission involved , time savings transferring shorter file much greater extra time decompress file 'll let arithmetic reason jpeg gradually replace gif standard usenet posting format jpeg store full color information 24 bits pixel \( 16 million colors \) instead 8 less \( 256 fewer colors \) 8 bit display hardware may seem like much advantage within couple years , though , 8 bit gif look obsolete black white macpaint format today furthermore , reasons detailed section 7 , jpeg far useful gif exchanging images among people widely varying color display hardware hence jpeg considerably appropriate gif use usenet posting standard 3 use jpeg , stick gif \? jpeg going displace gif entirely types images , gif superior image quality , file size , one first things learn jpeg kinds images apply rule thumb , jpeg superior gif storing full color gray scale images realistic scenes means scanned photographs similar material jpeg superior even n't 24 bit display hardware , lot superior \( see section 7 details \) gif significantly better images distinct colors , cartoons line drawings particular , large areas pixels exactly color compressed efficiently indeed gif jpeg ca n't squeeze files much gif without introducing visible defects sort image best kept gif form \( particular , single color borders quite cheap gif files , avoided jpeg files \) jpeg also hard time sharp edges row pure black pixels adjacent row pure white pixels , example sharp edges tend come blurred unless use high quality setting , sort thing found scanned photographs , shows fairly often gif files borders , overlaid text , etc particularly objectionable text 's pixels high gif lot small size overlaid text , n't jpeg computer drawn images \( ray traced scenes , instance \) usually fall scanned images cartoons terms complexity complex subtly rendered image , likely jpeg well goes semi realistic artwork \( fantasy drawings \) plain black white \( two level \) images never converted jpeg need least 16 gray levels jpeg useful gray scale images also noted gif lossless gray scale images 256 levels , jpeg existing library gif images , may wonder whether convert jpeg lose little image quality \( section 7 , argues jpeg image quality superior gif , applies formats start full color original start gif , 've already lost great deal information jpeg make things worse \) however , disk space savings may justify converting anyway decision 'll make convert gif library jpeg , see section 14 hints prepared leave images gif format , since gifs convert well 4 well jpeg compress images \? pretty darn well sample file sizes image handy , full color image ship harbor first three files comparison purposes rest created free jpeg software described section 6b file size bytes comments ship ppm original file ppm format \( compression 24 bits 3 bytes per pixel , plus bytes overhead \) ship ppm z ppm file passed unix compress compress n't accomplish lot , 'll note text oriented compressors give similar results ship gif converted gif ppmquant fs 256 savings result losing color info gif saves 8 bits pixel , 24 \( see sec 7 \) ship cjpeg q 95 \( highest useful quality setting \) indistinguishable 24 bit original , least ship cjpeg q 75 \( default setting \) look mighty darn close distinguish original , even screen ship cjpeg q 50 slight defects know look , could tell 's without seeing original still good image quality many recent postings usenet pictures groups ship cjpeg q 25 jpeg 's characteristic blockiness becomes apparent setting \( djpeg helps \) still , 've seen plenty usenet postings poorer image quality ship cjpeg q 5 optimize \( optimize cuts table overhead \) , perfectly satisfactory preview indexing purposes note file tiny compression ratio original 173 1 ! case jpeg make file 's factor four five smaller gif comparable quality \( q 75 file every bit good gif , better full color display \) seems typical ratio real world scenes 5 good quality settings jpeg \? jpeg compressors let pick file size vs image quality tradeoff selecting quality setting seems widespread confusion meaning settings quality 95 mean keep 95 information , claimed quality scale purely arbitrary 's percentage anything name game using jpeg pick lowest quality setting \( smallest file size \) image indistinguishable original setting vary one image another one observer another , rules thumb default quality setting \( q 75 \) often best choice setting lowest go without expecting see defects typical image try q 75 first see defects , go except experimental purposes , never go q 95 saying q 100 produce file two three times large q 95 , hardly better quality image less perfect quality begin , might able go q 50 without objectionable degradation hand , might need go higher quality setting avoid degradation second case seems apply much time converting gifs jpeg default q 75 right compressing 24 bit images , q 85 95 usually better converting gifs \( see section 14 info \) want small file \( say preview indexing purposes \) prepared tolerate large defects , q setting range 5 10 right q 2 may amusing op art \( note quality settings discussed article apply free jpeg software described section 6b , many programs based jpeg implementations , image alchemy , may use completely different quality scale programs n't even provide numeric scale , high medium low style choices \) 6 get jpeg software \? programs described section available ftp n't know use ftp , see faq article find sources \( n't direct access ftp , read ftpmail servers article \) article appears regularly news answers , get sending e mail mail server rtfm mit edu send usenet news answers finding sources body anonymous ftp list faq may also helpful 's usenet news answers ftp list faq news answers archive note list changes constantly copy couple months old , get latest jpeg faq news answers archive 6a looking canned software , viewers , etc first part list system specific programs run one kind system n't see want machine , check portable jpeg software described end list note list concentrates free shareware programs obtain internet commercial programs listed x windows xv \( shareware , 25 \) excellent viewer jpeg , gif , many image formats also format conversion simple image manipulations 's available ftp export lcs mit edu \( 18 24 0 12 \) , file contrib xv 3 00 tar z version 3 00 major upgrade support 24 bit displays many improvements however , brand new still bugs lurking prefer bleeding edge , stick version 2 21 , also available export note version 2 21 good choice 24 bit display \( 'll get 8 bit color \) , converting 24 bit images jpeg 2 21 works fine converting gif 8 bit images jpeg caution glitch version 2 21 sure check save normal size saving jpeg file , file blurry another good choice x windows john cristy 's free imagemagick package , also available export lcs mit edu , file contrib imagemagick tar z package handles many image processing conversion tasks imagemagick viewer handles 24 bit displays correctly colormapped displays , better \( though slower \) color quantization xv basic free jpeg software large , complex packages want simple image viewer , try xloadimage xli xloadimage supports jpeg latest release , 3 03 xloadimage free available export lcs mit edu , file contrib xloadimage 3 03 tar z xli variant version xloadimage , said fans somewhat faster robust original \( current xli indeed faster robust current xloadimage , least respect jpeg files , ijg v4 decoder xloadimage 3 03 using hacked v1 next xloadimage release fix \) xli also free available export lcs mit edu , file contrib xli 1 14 tar z programs said right thing 24 bit displays ms dos covers plain dos windows os 2 programs , see next headings one good choice eric praetzel 's free dvpeg , views jpeg gif files current version , 2 5 , available ftp sunee uwaterloo ca \( 129 97 50 50 \) , file pub jpeg viewers zip good basic viewer works either 286 386 486 machines user interface flashy , 's functional another freeware jpeg gif tga viewer mohammad 's hiview current version , 1 2 , available simtel20 mirror sites \( see note \) , file msdos graphics zip hiview requires 386 better cpu vcpi compatible memory manager \( qemm386 386max work windows os 2 \) hiview currently fastest viewer images bigger screen larger images , scales image fit screen \( rather using panning scrolling viewers \) may may prefer approach , 's denying slows loading large images considerably note installation bit tricky read directions carefully ! shareware alternative colorview dos \( 30 \) easier install either two freeware alternatives user interface also much looking , although personally find harder use keystrokes , inconsistent behavior faster dvpeg little slower hiview , least hardware \( images larger screen size , dvpeg colorview seem speed , faster hiview \) current version 2 1 , available simtel20 mirror sites \( see note \) , file msdos graphics zip requires vesa graphics driver n't one , look zip vesa tsr zip directory \( many recent pcs built vesa driver , n't try load vesa driver unless colorview complains driver missing \) second shareware alternative fullview , kicking around net , n't know stable archive location current \( rather old \) version inferior viewers anyway author tells new version fullview shortly submitted simtel20 archives time well known gif viewer \( cshow \) supports jpeg latest revision , 8 however , cshow 's jpeg implementation n't good 's slow \( half speed viewers \) image quality poor except hi color displays bad 'd nice see good jpeg capability cshow shareware , 25 available simtel20 mirror sites \( see note \) , file msdos gif zip due remarkable variety pc graphics hardware , one viewers might work particular machine ca n't get work , 'll need use one following conversion programs convert jpeg gif , view favorite gif viewer \( hi color hardware , n't use gif intermediate format try find targa capable viewer instead 0 right thing hi color displays \) independent jpeg group 's free jpeg converters simtel20 mirror sites \( see note \) , file msdos graphics jpeg4 zip \( zip 386 extended memory \) files dos free source code described section 6b convert jpeg gif , targa , ppm formats handmade software offers free jpeg gif conversion tools , gif2jpg jpg2gif slow limited conversion gif format particular , ca n't get 24 bit color output jpeg major advantage tools read write hsi 's proprietary jpeg format well usenet standard jfif format since hsi format files rather widespread bbses , useful capability version 2 0 tools free \( prior versions shareware \) get simtel20 mirror sites \( see note \) , file msdos graphics zip note use hsi format files posted internet , since readable non pc platforms handmade software also shareware image conversion manipulation package , image alchemy translate jpeg files \( jfif hsi formats \) many image formats also display images demo version image alchemy version 1 6 2 available simtel20 mirror sites \( see note \) , file msdos graphics zip note simtel20 internet 's key archive site pc related programs simtel20 , full name wsmr simtel20 army mil \( 192 88 110 20 \) simtel20 runs non unix system weird directory names document refers directory \( eg \) msdos graphics simtel20 , really means pd1 msdos graphics physically milnet , expect rather slow ftp transfer rates simtel20 several internet sites maintain copies \( mirrors \) simtel20 archives ftp users go one mirror sites instead popular usa mirror site oak oakland edu \( 141 210 10 117 \) , keeps simtel20 files \( eg \) pub msdos graphics ftp capability , retrieve files simtel20 e mail see informational postings comp archives msdos announce find outside usa , consult newsgroup learn nearest simtel20 mirror microsoft windows several windows programs capable displaying jpeg images \( windows viewers generally slower dos viewers hardware , due windows' system overhead note run dos conversion programs described inside windows dos window \) newest entry , free extremely fast version 1 0 available ftp rahul net , file pub bryanw pc jpeg zip requires windows 3 1 256 colors mode frills viewer bad habit hogging machine completely decodes image quality noticeably worse viewers 's fast 'll use anyway , least previewing jview freeware , fairly fast , good line help , write image windows bmp format ca n't create new jpeg files , n't view gifs jview also lacks useful features shareware viewers \( brightness adjustment \) , 's excellent basic viewer current version , 0 9 , available ftp cica indiana edu \( 129 79 20 84 \) , file pub pc win3 desktop zip \( mirrors archive found internet sites , including wuarchive wustl edu \) winjpeg \( shareware , 20 \) displays jpeg , gif , targa , tiff , bmp image files write formats , used converter nifty features including color balance adjustment slideshow current version 2 1 , available simtel20 mirror sites \( see note \) , file msdos windows3 zip \( slow 286 compatible version register , 'll get 386 version , roughly 25 faster \) colorview another shareware entry \( 30 \) early promising contender , updated time , point real advantages winjpeg want try anyway , current version 0 97 , available ftp cica indiana edu , file pub pc win3 desktop zip \( understand new version appearing authors finished colorview dos \) dvpeg \( see dos heading \) also works windows , full screen mode , window os 2 following files available hobbes nmsu edu \( 128 123 35 151 \) note check pub uploads recent versions hobbes moderator fast moving uploads permanent directories pub os2 2 x graphics zip 32 bit version free ijg conversion programs , version 4 pub os2 graphics jpeg4 16 zip 16 bit version , os 2 1 x pub os2 2 x graphics zip image archiver 1 02 image conversion viewing pm graphical interface strong conversion functions , viewing bit weaker shareware , 15 pub os2 2 x graphics zip 1 1 os 2 2 x port winjpeg , popular viewer windows \( see description windows section \) shareware , 20 pub os2 2 x graphics zip 0 85 jpeg gif bmp targa pcx viewer gif viewing fast , jpeg viewing roughly speed two programs image manipulation slideshow functions shareware , 20 macintosh mac jpeg programs rely apple 's jpeg implementation , part quicktime system extension need quicktime installed use quicktime , need 68020 better cpu need running system 6 0 7 later \( 're running system 6 , must also install 32 bit quickdraw extension built system 7 \) get quicktime ftp ftp apple com , file dts mac quicktime quicktime hqx \( 11 92 , file contains quicktime 1 5 , better qt 1 0 several ways respect jpeg , marginally faster considerably less prone crash fed corrupt jpeg file however , applications seem compatibility problems qt 1 5 \) mac users keep mind quicktime 's jpeg format , pict jpeg , usenet standard jfif jpeg format \( see section 10 details \) post images usenet , make sure jfif format programs mentioned generate either format first choice probably jpegview , free program viewing images jfif format , pict jpeg format , gif format also convert two jpeg formats current version , 2 0 , big improvement prior versions get sumex aim stanford edu \( 36 44 0 6 \) , file info mac app jpeg view 20 hqx requires system 7 quicktime 8 bit displays , jpegview usually produces best color image quality currently available mac jpeg viewers jpegview view large images much less memory mac viewers fact , 's one deal jpeg images much 640x480 pixels typical 4mb mac given large image , jpegview automatically scales fit screen , rather presenting scroll bars like viewers \( zoom desired portion , though \) people like behavior , n't overall , jpegview 's user interface well thought gifconverter , shareware \( 40 \) image viewer converter , supports jfif pict jpeg , well gif several image formats latest version 2 3 2 get sumex aim stanford edu , file info mac art gif gif converter 232 hqx requires system 6 0 5 later gifconverter better jpegview plain jpeg gif viewer , much extensive image manipulation format conversion capabilities , may find worth shareware fee lot playing around images also , newest version gifconverter load save jfif images without quicktime , best bet machine old run quicktime \( 's faster quicktime \) note gifconverter runs memory trying load large jpeg , try converting file gif jpeg convert , viewing gif version jpeg convert , mac version free ijg jpeg conversion utilities , available sumex aim stanford edu , file info mac app jpeg convert 10 hqx run mac , file conversion , viewing use conjunction gif viewer previous versions faq recommended imagery jpeg v0 6 , jpeg gif converter based old version ijg code using program , definitely replace jpeg convert apple 's free program pictpixie view images jfif , quicktime jpeg , gif format , convert formats get pictpixie ftp apple com , file dts mac quicktime qt 1 0 stuff pictpixie hqx requires quicktime pictpixie intended developer 's tool , 's really best choice unless like fool around quicktime drawbacks requires lots memory , produces relatively poor color image quality anything less 24 bit display , relatively unfriendly user interface worse , pictpixie unsupported program , meaning minor bugs apple intend fix \( old version pictpixie , called , floating around net trash , 's even also , quicktime starter kit includes much cleaned descendant pictpixie called picture compressor note picture compressor free may distributed net \) storm technology 's picture decompress free jpeg viewer converter rather old program inferior programs many ways , run without system 7 quicktime , may forced use older systems \( need 32 bit quickdraw , really old machines ca n't use \) get sumex aim stanford edu , file info mac app picture decompress 201 hqx must set file type downloaded image file 'jpeg' allow picture decompress open machine old run 32 bit quickdraw \( mac plus instance \) , gifconverter choice single program jpeg viewing n't want pay gifconverter , use jpeg convert free gif viewer commercial mac applications supporting jpeg , although deal usenet standard jfif format adobe photoshop , version 2 0 1 later , read write jfif format jpeg files \( use jpeg plug acquire menu \) must set file type downloaded jpeg file 'jpeg' allow photoshop recognize amiga \( programs listed section stored aminet archive amiga physik unizh ch \( 130 60 80 80 \) many mirror sites archive try use closest one usa , good choice wuarchive wustl edu look mirrors amiga physik unizh ch \) plus excellent jpeg viewer converter , well general image manipulation tool 's cheap \( shareware , 20 \) read several formats besides jpeg current version 2 0 8 demo version available amiga physik unizh ch \( mirror sites \) , file amiga gfx edit lha demo version crop images larger 512x512 , otherwise fully functional rend24 \( shareware , 30 \) image renderer display jpeg , ilbm , gif images program used create animations , even capturing frames fly rendering packages like lightwave current version 1 05 , available amiga physik unizh ch \( mirror sites \) , file amiga gfx lha \( note although directory supposedly amigados 3 0 programs , program also run amigados 1 3 , 2 04 2 1 \) viewtek free jpeg ilbm gif anim viewer current version 1 04 , available amiga physik unizh ch \( mirror sites \) , file amiga gfx show lha 're willing spend real money , several commercial packages support jpeg two written thomas krehbiel , author rend24 viewtek cinemorph , standalone image morphing package , , impressive 24 bit image capture , conversion , editing , painting , effects package also includes cinemorph distributed great valley products art department professional \( adpro \) , inc , widely used commercial image manipulation software amigas , black belt systems , another well regarded commercial graphics package jpeg support free ijg jpeg software available compiled amigas amiga physik unizh ch \( mirror sites \) directory amiga gfx conv , file lha programs convert jpeg ppm , gif , targa formats amiga world heavily infested quick dirty jpeg programs , many based ancient beta test version free ijg jpeg software \( thanks certain magazine published disk month , without much notifying authors \) among , , , probably others even heard opinion , anything older ijg version 3 \( march 1992 \) worth disk space 's stored program , trash get something newer atari st free ijg jpeg software available compiled atari st , tt , etc , atari archive umich edu , file atari graphics zoo programs convert jpeg ppm , gif , targa formats monochrome st monitors , try , manages achieve four level grayscale effect flickering version 4 1 reads jpeg files available atari archive umich edu , file atari graphics zoo heard free shareware jpeg capable viewers ataris , surely must \? pointers appreciated acorn archimedes ! , supplied risc os 3 version 3 10 , convert view jpeg jfif format provision also made convert images jpeg , although must done rather double clicking recent versions \( since 7 11 \) shareware program translator handle jpeg , along 30 image formats older versions found archimedes bboards , current version available registering author , john , 31 , wj , enschede , netherlands price 35 dutch \( 22 10 pounds \) 's also commercial product called ! jpeg provides jpeg read write functionality direct jpeg viewing , well host image format conversion processing options expensive necessarily better programs contact dt software , , cambridge , uk tel 0223 next pd utility displays images format conversions current version reads jpeg write available standard next archives sonata cc purdue edu cs orst edu , somewhere pub next \( currently organized , 's hard point specific sub directories \) note older version floating around support jpeg portable software almost system none fits situation , obtain compile free jpeg conversion software described 6b 'll also need viewer program display 8 bits less , gif viewer fine display color capability , try find viewer read targa ppm 24 bit image files numerous commercial jpeg offerings , popping every day recommend spend money one unless find available free shareware software vastly slow case , purchase hardware assisted product ask pointed questions whether product complies final jpeg standard whether handle jfif file format many earliest commercial releases never compatible anyone else 's files 6b looking source code work free , portable c code jpeg compression available independent jpeg group , lead package containing source code , documentation , small test files available several places official archive site source code ftp uu net \( 137 39 1 9 192 48 96 9 \) look directory graphics jpeg current release jpegsrc v4 tar z \( compressed tar file n't forget retrieve binary mode \) retrieve file ftp uucp pc n't know cope tar z format , may prefer zip format , find simtel20 mirror sites \( see note \) , file msdos graphics zip file also available compuserve , forum \( go pics \) , library 15 , zip ftp access , retrieve source nearest comp sources misc archive version 4 appeared issues 55 72 volume 34 \( n't know retrieve comp sources misc postings , see faq article find sources , referred top section 6 \) free jpeg code provides conversion jpeg jfif format image files gif , pbmplus ppm pgm , utah rle , targa file formats core compression decompression modules easily programs , image viewers package highly portable tested many machines ranging pcs released software noncommercial commercial use companies welcome use basis jpeg related products ask royalty , although ask acknowledgement product literature \( see readme file distribution details \) hope make software industrial quality although , anything 's free , offer warranty accept liability independent jpeg group volunteer organization 'd like contribute improving software , welcome join 7 's hoopla color quantization \? people n't full color \( 24 bit per pixel \) display hardware typical display hardware stores 8 fewer bits per pixel , display 256 fewer distinct colors time display full color image , computer must map image appropriate set representative colors process called color quantization \( something misnomer , color selection would better term 're stuck standard usage though \) clearly , color quantization lossy process turns images , details color quantization algorithm much impact final image quality errors introduced jpeg \( except lowest jpeg quality settings \) since jpeg full color format , converting color jpeg image display 8 bit less hardware requires color quantization true color jpegs even feed 256 less color gif jpeg , comes 256 colors , thousands colors happens jpeg 's lossiness affects pixel little differently , two pixels started identical colors probably come slightly different colors original color gets smeared group nearby colors therefore quantization always required display color jpeg colormapped display , regardless image source way avoid quantization ask gray scale output \( incidentally , effect 's nearly meaningless talk number colors used jpeg image even attempted count number distinct pixel values , different jpeg decoders would give different results roundoff error differences occasionally see posted images described 256 color jpeg tells poster \( \) n't read faq \( b \) probably converted jpeg gif jpegs classified color gray scale \( like photographs \) , number colors n't useful concept jpeg \) hand , gif image definition already quantized 256 fewer colors \( gif definite number colors palette , format n't allow 256 palette entries \) purposes usenet picture distribution , gif advantage sender color quantization , recipients n't also disadvantage gif 're stuck sender 's quantization sender quantized different number colors display , quantize , resulting much poorer image quality quantized full color image furthermore , sender n't use high quality color quantization algorithm , 're luck reason , jpeg offers promise significantly better image quality users whose machines n't match sender 's display hardware jpeg 's full color image quantized precisely match user 's display hardware furthermore , able take advantage future improvements quantization algorithms \( lot active research area \) , purchase better display hardware , get better view jpeg images already gif , 're stuck sent 's also worth mentioning many gif viewing programs include rather shoddy quantization routines view 256 color gif 16 color ega display , example , probably getting much worse image need partly inevitable consequence two color \( one create gif , one display \) , often 's also due sloppiness jpeg conversion programs forced use high quality quantizers order get acceptable results , normal use quantize directly number colors displayed thus , jpeg likely provide better results average gif program low color resolution displays well high resolution ones ! finally , ever growing number people better 8 bit display hardware already 15 bit hi color pc displays , true 24 bit displays workstations macintoshes , etc people , gif already obsolete , cannot represent image full capabilities display jpeg images drive displays much effectively thus , jpeg around better choice gif representing images machine independent fashion 8 jpeg work \? buzz words know subsampling , discrete transforms , coefficient quantization , huffman arithmetic entropy coding article 's long enough already , i'm going say technical information , see comp compression faq available news answers archive rtfm mit edu , files pub usenet news answers compression faq part 1 3 need help using news answers archive , see top article 9 lossless jpeg \? 's great deal confusion subject jpeg committee define truly lossless compression algorithm , e , one guarantees final output bit bit identical original input however , lossless mode almost nothing common regular , lossy jpeg algorithm , offers much less compression present , implementations lossless jpeg exist , commercial saying q 100 free jpeg software get lossless image get rid deliberate information loss coefficient quantization step still good deal information loss color subsampling step \( v4 free jpeg code , also say sample 1x1 turn subsampling keep mind many commercial jpeg implementations cannot cope resulting file \) even quantization subsampling turned , regular jpeg algorithm lossless , subject roundoff errors various calculations maximum error counts one pixel value 's highly unlikely could perceived human eye , might concern machine processing image minimum loss setting , regular jpeg produces files perhaps half size uncompressed 24 bit per pixel image true lossless jpeg provides roughly amount compression , guarantees bit bit accuracy application requiring lossless storage images less 6 bits per pixel \( per color component \) , may want look jbig image compression standard performs better jpeg lossless images jpeg lossless superior jbig images 6 bits per pixel furthermore , jpeg public domain \( least huffman back end \) , jbig techniques heavily covered patents 10 argument file formats \? strictly speaking , jpeg refers family compression algorithms refer specific image file format jpeg committee prevented defining file format turf wars within international standards organizations since ca n't actually exchange images anyone else unless agree common file format , leaves us problem absence official standards , number jpeg program writers gone thing , result programs n't compatible anybody else 's closest thing de facto standard jpeg format work 's coordinated people c cube microsystems defined two jpeg based file formats jfif \( jpeg file interchange format \) , low end format transports pixels much else tiff jpeg , aka tiff 6 0 , extension aldus tiff format tiff high end format let record everything ever wanted know image , lot besides \) tiff lot complex jfif , may well prove less transportable , different vendors historically implemented slightly different incompatible subsets tiff 's likely adding jpeg mix anything improve situation formats developed input major vendors jpeg related products 's reasonably likely future commercial products adhere one standards believe usenet adopt jfif replacement gif picture postings jfif simpler tiff available tiff 6 0 spec recently officially adopted , still vague crucial details even tiff jpeg well defined , jfif format likely widely supported lowest common denominator tiff jpeg files may never transportable particular case people may interested apple 's quicktime software macintosh quicktime uses jfif compatible format wrapped inside mac specific pict structure conversion jfif quicktime jpeg pretty straightforward , several mac programs available \( see mac portion section 6a \) editor handles binary files , strip quicktime jpeg pict jfif hand see section 11 details another particular case handmade software 's programs \( gif2jpg jpg2gif image alchemy \) programs capable reading writing jfif format default , though , write proprietary format developed hsi format readable non hsi programs used usenet postings use j switch get jfif output \( applies old versions programs current releases emit jfif format default still careful post hsi format files , unless want get flamed people non pc platforms \) 11 recognize file format , \? alleged jpeg file software wo n't read , 's likely hsi format proprietary jpeg based format tell first bytes file 1 jfif standard file start characters \( hex \) ff d8 ff e0 , followed two variable bytes \( often hex 00 10 \) , followed 'jfif' 2 see ff d8 start , rest , may raw jpeg file probably jfif software 's worth try , anyway 3 hsi files start 're luck unless hsi software portions file may look like plain jpeg data , wo n't decompress properly non hsi programs 4 macintosh pict file , jpeg compressed , couple hundred bytes header followed jfif header \( scan 'jfif' \) strip everything ff d8 able read 5 anything else 's proprietary format , jpeg lucky , file may consist header raw jpeg data stream identify start jpeg data stream \( look ff d8 \) , try stripping everything uuencoded usenet postings , characteristic jfif pattern begin line c x whereas uuencoded hsi files start begin line ' learn check former , save trouble downloading non jfif files 12 arithmetic coding \? jpeg spec defines two different back end modules final output compressed data either huffman coding arithmetic coding allowed choice impact image quality , arithmetic coding usually produces smaller compressed file typical images , arithmetic coding produces file 5 10 percent smaller huffman coding \( file size numbers previously cited huffman coding \) unfortunately , particular variant arithmetic coding specified jpeg standard subject patents owned ibm , , mitsubishi thus cannot legally use arithmetic coding unless obtain licenses companies \( fair use doctrine allows people implement test algorithm , actually storing images dubious best \) least short run , recommend people worry arithmetic coding space savings n't great enough justify potential legal hassles particular , arithmetic coding used images exchanged usenet small chance legal situation may change future stay tuned details 13 loss accumulate repeated compression decompression \? would nice , compressed image jpeg , could decompress , manipulate \( crop border , say \) , recompress without image degradation beyond lost initially unfortunately case general , altered image loses information , though usually much lost first time around next best thing would decompress image recompress without changing loss , e , get identical jpeg file even true least , current free jpeg software 's essentially problem accumulation roundoff error repeatedly compress decompress , image eventually degrade see visible changes first generation output \( usually takes many cycles get visible change \) one things list see accumulation error avoided limited , optimistic case , could possibly guaranteed would compressing unmodified full color output djpeg , original quality setting , would introduce loss even simple changes cropping border could cause roundoff error degradation \( 're wondering , 's pixel block boundaries move cropped 16 pixels , might safe , 's mighty limited capability ! \) bottom line jpeg useful format archival storage transmission images , n't want use intermediate format sequences image manipulation steps use lossless format \( ppm , rle , tiff , etc \) working image , jpeg ready file away aside avoiding degradation , save lot compression decompression time way \) 14 rules thumb converting gif images jpeg \? stated earlier , lose amount image information convert existing gif image jpeg obtain original full color data gif made , 's far better make jpeg need save space gif work , suggestions getting maximum space savings minimum loss quality first rule converting gif library look jpeg , make sure happy , throwing away corresponding gif give chance conversion higher quality setting necessary gifs may better left gifs , explained section 3 particular , cartoon type gifs sixteen fewer colors n't convert well may find jpeg file reasonable quality larger gif \( check sizes \) experience date suggests large , high visual quality gifs best candidates conversion jpeg chew storage offer potential savings , convert jpeg least degradation n't waste time converting gif much 100 kbytes also , n't expect jpeg files converted gifs small created directly full color originals maintain image quality may let converted files much twice big straight jpeg files would \( e , shoot 1 2 1 3rd size gif file , 1 4th suggested earlier comparisons \) many people developed odd habit putting large constant color border around gif image useless , nearly free terms storage cost gif files free jpeg files , sharp border boundary create visible artifacts \( ghost edges \) favor crop border jpeging \( x windows system , xv 's manual automatic cropping functions painless way \) cjpeg 's default q setting 75 appropriate full color input , gif inputs , q settings 85 95 often seem necessary avoid image degradation \( apply smoothing suggested , higher q setting may necessary \) color gifs photographs complex artwork usually dithered fool eye seeing 256 colors gif actually store enlarge image , see adjacent pixels often significantly different colors normal size eye averages pixels together produce illusion intermediate color value trouble dithering , jpeg , looks like high spatial frequency color noise jpeg ca n't compress noise well resulting jpeg file larger lower image quality would gotten jpeging original full color image \( \) get around , want smooth gif image compression smoothing averages together nearby pixels , thus approximating color thought saw anyway , process getting rid rapid color changes give jpeg trouble appropriate use smoothing often let avoid using high q factor , thus reducing size compressed file , still obtaining better looking output image 'd get without smoothing v4 free jpeg software \( products based \) , simple smoothing capability built try smooth 10 converting gifs values 10 25 seem work well high quality gifs heavy handed dithering may require larger smoothing factors \( see regular fine scale patterns gif image even without enlargement , strong smoothing definitely called \) large smoothing factor blur output image , n't want image processing wizard , also smoothing separate filtering program , pnmconvol pbmplus package however , cjpeg 's built smoother lot faster pnmconvol upshot cjpeg quality 85 smooth 10 probably good starting point converting gifs really care image , 'll want check results maybe try settings information jpeg general free jpeg software particular , contact independent jpeg group jpeg info uunet uu net tom lane organizer , independent jpeg group internet tgl cs cmu edu bitnet tgl cs cmu edu carnegie
sunee uwaterloo ca \( bernie \) subject optimizing projections organization university waterloo lines 31 article names nerdc ufl edu lioness ufcc ufl edu writes three library lot projections \( duh \) , currently projecting object 's vertices per triangle basis grossly inefficient 99 objects displayed \( optimized projections one time , vertex \) , objects whose z intersect plane ca n't benefit new vertices must created z clipping anyone better ideas \? yes 's keep vertices array , polygons \( triangles okay , n sided polygons slightly efficient \) store indices array vertices comprise set flag vertex transform , n't transform vertex also elimination processing polygon , vertices belong n't transformed whenever transform vertex , check 's far side plane , project right away store result z clip vertices get produced projection done stage bernie university waterloo dept electrical computer engineering mail sunee uwaterloo ca voice \( 519 \) 885 1211 x work
lst hemul nada kth se \( lars erik \) subject parametric drafting organization royal institute technology , stockholm , sweden lines 24 nntp posting host hemul nada kth se hello ! i'm looking documentation books parametric drafting anyone know material , electronic gopher ftp site books authors im looking commercial software rather info implementation theory subject im planning make parametric generator autocad would need everything know interest ! thanks ! ! lasse lars erik , student university stockholm , sweden
af774 cleveland freenet edu \( chad cipiti \) subject 3d shark \? organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 15 reply af774 cleveland freenet edu \( chad cipiti \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu hi i'm looking 3d shark use ray tracing i'm 'll using vivid pov , format ftp sites 3d objects anyone good 3d shark \? thanks alot ! chad new 1993 sea world ohio chad cipiti shark cipiti bobcat ent ohiou edu encounter make contact af774 cleveland freenet edu
u7711501 bicmos ee nctu edu tw \( jih shin ho \) subject 0 7 organization national chiao tung university x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 299 posted zip alt binaries pictures utilities upload package simtel20 later may distribute program freely non commercial use fee gained warranty author responsible damage caused program important changes since version 1 35 added support iris support mix two images added support added support save palette added support added support one added support new color quantization option fix minor bugs \( 1 \) introduction program let read , write display images different formats also let special effects \( rotation , dithering \) image main purpose let convert image among different include simple file management system support support limit image size currently program supports 8 , 15 , 16 , 24 bits display want use hicolor truecolor , must vesa driver want modify video driver , please read section \( 8 \) \( 2 \) hardware requirement pc 386 better msdos 3 3 higher min amount ram 4m bytes \( maybe less memory also work \) \( recommend min 8m bytes better performance \) hard disk swapping \( virtual memory \) following description borrowed djgpp supported wares 128m extended memory \( expanded vcpi \) 128m disk space used swapping supervga 256 color mode 1024x768 xms memory allocation strategies vcpi programs , qemm , desqview , 386max unsupported dpmi microsoft windows features emulator , 32 bit unix ish environment , flat memory model , svga graphics \( 3 \) installation video drivers , go32 exe borrowed djgpp \( use western digital vga chips , read readme wd \) \( go32 exe modified version vesa completely compatible original version \) people report go32 exe compatible djgpp programs system encounter problem , put go32 exe within search path please read bat run program choose xxxxx grn video driver , add environment go32 example , go32 driver x xxxxx xxxxx grn nc 256 n't , add x xxxxx environment go32 example , go32 driver x xxxxx xxxxx emu x xxxxx notes 1 test grn , et4000 grn vesa grn drivers tested 2 modified et4000 grn support 8 , 15 , 16 , 24 bits display n't need use vesa driver et4000 grn n't work , please try vesa grn 3 want use hicolor truecolor display , please use vesa grn \( except et4000 users \) find vesa bios driver wuarchive wustl edu mirrors msdos graphics godzilla cgl rmit oz au kjb mgl \( 4 \) command line switch usage display display initial display type sort sort method h \? display type 8 \( svga , default \) , 15 , 16 \( hicolor \) , 24 \( truecolor \) sort method , \( 5 \) function key f2 change disk drive ctrl ctrl z change disk drive f3 change filename mask \( see match doc \) f4 change parameters f5 effects picture , eg flip , rotate f7 make directory tag file tag group files \( see match doc \) tag files u untag file untag group files \( see match doc \) u untag files ins change display type \( 8 , 15 , 16 , 24 \) 'read' 'screen' menu f6 , , move file \( \) alt move single file \( ignore tag \) f8 , , delete file \( \) alt delete single file \( ignore tag \) r , r rename file c , c copy file \( \) alt c copy single file \( ignore tag \) z , z display first 10 bytes ascii , hex dec modes f , f display disk free space page move one page tab change processing target arrow keys , home , end , page , page scroll image home left end right page top page bottom 'screen' menu left , right arrow change display type \( 8 , 15 , 16 , 24 bits \) ctrl arrow keys crop image one line \( graphics mode \) , slide show \( show tagged files \) escape terminate b , b batch conversion \( convert tagged files single format \) w , w wait pause slide show alt x quit program without prompting alt reread directory escape abort function return \( 6 \) support format read gif \( gif \) , japan mag \( mag \) , japan pic \( pic \) , sun raster \( ras \) , jpeg \( jpg \) , xbm \( xbm \) , utah rle \( rle \) , pbm \( pbm \) , pgm \( pgm \) , ppm \( ppm \) , pm \( pm \) , pcx \( pcx \) , japan mki \( mki \) , tiff \( tif \) , targa \( tga \) , xpm \( xpm \) , mac paint \( mac \) , gem img \( img \) , iff ilbm \( \) , window bmp \( bmp \) , qrt ray tracing \( qrt \) , mac pict \( pct \) , vis \( vis \) , pds \( pds \) , viking \( \) , vicar \( vic \) , fits \( fit \) , usenix face \( fac \) , iris \( sgi \) extensions \( \) standard extensions write gif , sun raster , jpeg , xbm , pbm , pgm , ppm , pm , tiff , targa , xpm , mac paint , ascii , laser jet , iff ilbm , window bmp , mac pict , vis , fits , face , pcx , gem img , iris read write support full color \( 8 bits \) , grey scale , b w dither , 24 bits image , allowed format \( 7 \) detail initialization set default display type highest display type find allowable screen resolution \( grn video driver \) 1 run program , enter 'read' menu menu press function key move copy files , enter menu menu much like 'read' menu , allow change directory header line 'read' menu includes \( xx , f xx , xx \) display type f number files number tagged files pressing space 'read' menu let select format use reading current file pressing return 'read' menu let reading current file program automatically determine format file procedure first , check magic number fail , check standard extension still fail , report error pressing 'read' menu delay time 0 , program wait hit key \( except escape \) error occurs , program make beep 'w' 'w' pause , key continue escape terminate pressing ins 'read' menu change display type pressing alt x 'read' menu quit program without prompting pressing f5 turn menu 2 image file successfully read , enter 'screen' menu special effect image pressing return show image graphic mode , press return , space escape return text mode pressing tab change processing target program allows special effects 8 bit 24 bit image pressing left , right arrow change display type 8 , 15 , 16 , 24 bits pressing space save current image file b w dither save black white image \( 1 bit \) grey scale save grey image \( 8 bits \) full color save color image \( 8 bits \) true color save 24 bit image program ask questions want write image file questions format dependent finally program prompt filename want save file another directory current directory , please press space pressing space , enter menu change directory want , pressing space program prompt filename pressing return program prompt filename \( filename bar \) 3 program supports 8 , 15 , 16 , 24 bits display 4 program memory greedy n't enough memory , performance poor 5 want save 8 bits image try gif tiff \( lzw \) targa sun raster bmp want save 24 bits image \( lossless \) try tiff \( lzw \) targa ilbm sun raster \( one better true 24bits image \) 6 recommend jpeg storing 24 bits images , even 8 bits images 7 subroutines fully tested 8 document well written problem , suggestion , comment program , please send u7711501 bicmos ee nctu edu tw \( 140 113 11 13 \) need suggestion improve program \( anonymous ftp site \) \( 8 \) tech information program \( user interface subroutines \) written jih shin ho subroutines borrowed xv \( 2 21 \) pbmplus \( dec 91 \) tiff \( v3 2 \) jpeg \( v4 \) reading writing public domain libraries compiled djgpp get whole djgpp package simtel20 mirror sites example , wuarchive wustl edu mirrors msdos djgpp \( 9 \) want modify video driver 1 get source code simtel20 mirror sites 2 hicolor truecolor 15 bits colors set 32768 16 bits colors set 24 bits colors set acknowledgment would like thank authors xv pbmplus permission let use subroutines also thank authors write tiff jpeg libraries thank dj without djgpp ca n't thing pc jih shin ho u7711501 bicmos ee nctu edu tw
sid hp com \( dan conway \) subject calculating regular polyhedra vertices organization hp scientific instruments division palo alto , ca lines 16 'd interested copy code run across \( mail author bounced \) comp graphics ricky vnet ibm com \( rick turner \) 12 53 may 13 , 1993 fooled around problem years ago , implemented simple method ran pc simple 40 50 lines code somewhere still could dig interest rick dan conway sid hp com
rsc altair csustan edu \( steve cunningham \) subject siggraph online experimental publication available summary 's keywords siggraph , electronic online issue organization csu lines 49 rich writes article 1993may7 bert eecs uic edu , rsc siggraph org \( steve cunningham \) writes computer graphics experimental special online issue may 1993 may 1993 experimental special issue computer graphics online set files siggraph org system directory ftp publications may 93 online made available computer graphics community acm siggraph general theme issue electronic documents , table contents files tell publication contents ftp 'd , found nothing removed \? nope , 's still ftp siggraph org connected siggraph org 220 siggraph org ftp server \( version 6 12 tue apr 13 09 53 56 cdt 1993 \) ready name \( siggraph org rsc \) anonymous 331 guest login ok , send e mail address password password 230 230 welcome siggraph org , machine maintained acm 230 siggraph volunteers service active 230 computer graphics community 230 ftp cd publications may 93 online 250 cwd command successful ftp ls 200 port command successful 150 opening ascii mode data connection file list maurer skip russell gonzalez green announcements calendar contacts index read 226 transfer complete 141 bytes received 0 04 seconds \( 3 4 kbytes \) ftp
kub nl \( tilburg , remco \) subject cgm viewer wanted organization tilburg university , tilburg , netherlands nntp posting host reply kub nl news software vax vms vnews 1 41 lines 7 i'm currently looking viewer computer graphics metafile \( cgm \) pictures please inform shareware freeware version , remco kub nl
wlieftin cs vu nl \( liefting w \) subject pov ray related group needed organization fac wiskunde informatica , vu , amsterdam lines 20 hed cats ucsc edu \( magic fingers \) writes article 1993may13 exucom com cyberman exucom com \( stephen r phillips \) writes takes making alt group , \? 've following thread , , two months \? alt created 2 purposes 1 groups fit comp 'official' hierarchies 2 fast creation hot new newsgroups like alt gulf war voting process control facilities , sites free decide carry \( \) alt groups therefore , \( think \) desirable try create comp graphics raytrace , rendering whatever alt group wouter
sony1 sdrc com \( robert \) subject bit planes lines 12 could anyone please explain bit planes \? sgi work says 64 bit planes mean \? relate pc graphics \? usually \? please reply via email group head thanks advance ! ! ! bob structural dynamics research corp cincinnati , ohio 513 576
organization arizona state university eric davis asuacad bitnet subject help 3ds lines 11 article dundee ncr com , says 3d studio , way create , etc \? want simulate things glass lenses , bottles etc might ipas routine , sure another way render scene without glass object save image assign image glass object reflection take lot adjusting position size reflection , 's thing think
brendan gu uwa edu au \( brendan \) subject 3d input devices organization university western australia lines 9 nntp posting host mackerel gu uwa edu au keywords 3d , input , device greetings , anyone use form 3d input device \? would like hear information systems people currently using please email responses summarise get feedback brendan brendan gu uwa edu au
organization middle east technical university computer center iscis trmetu bitnet subject 8th int'l computer information sciences lines 91 call papers eighth international symposium computer information sciences iscis viii november 3 5 , 1993 , , turkey organized ecole des en informatique , paris , france metu middle east technical university , ankara , turkey cooperation ieee computer society turkey chapter , ieee turkey section following universities , ege , , istanbul , yildiz iscis advisory board e , e , u halici , e , k , , , n , u , conference chair program co chairs publicity chair erol , l gun , ibm , usa halici , metu duke university , usa r , ibm , usa halici vm cc metu edu tr erol egr duke edu p , irisa , france halici trmetu bitnet program committee v , turkey , e , turkey , e , turkey , , turkey , , turkey , , turkey , , turkey , , france , j , france , e , usa , g , turkey , u halici , turkey , e , turkey , k , turkey , , germany , , turkey , , france , v , france , n , france , j f perrot , france , , france , , greece , g , france , g , turkey , n , turkey publicity committee , , , , iscis viii eighth series meetings brought together computer scientists engineers twenty countries year 's conference held beautiful mediterranean resort city , region rich natural well historical sites research papers sought following areas theory computer science computer architecture systems artificial intelligence neural networks graphics image processing computational mathematics operations research applications databases performance evaluation software engineering computer networks parallelism paper submission full papers limited 8 pages short communications limited 4 pages submit five camera ready copies \( one original four copies \) paper accompanying letter postal mail , arrive june 30 , 1993 iscis viii , attn drs gun , ibm b 673 , p box , research triangle park , nc , usa selected papers iscis viii published journal information sciences \( north holland \) poster submission submit five camera ready copies 1 page extended abstract accompanying letter july 30 , 1993 address given information required writing format , information announcements , contact iscis viii , halici , dept electrical electronics eng , metu , ankara , turkey tel \( 90 4 \) 210 10 00 ext fax \( 90 4 \) 210 12 61 email iscis vm cc metu edu tr iscis trmetu bitnet
athena mit edu \( \) subject help 3d reconstruction organization massachusetts institute technology lines 17 distribution world nntp posting host 318 1 mit edu hi i'm new imaging , advisor would like 3d reconstructions take slides \( biological \) , image 486 software allows us trace outline objects want save outlines stored tiff file would like convert group outlines 3d image unsure begin someone mentioned could convert tiff vector format could view autocad help would greatly appreciated athena mit edu
mitre org \( paul fine \) subject tiff 6 0 nntp posting host paul fine mitre org organization mitre corporation lines 5 recently read book tiff version 6 0 specification due released spring 1992 interested finding new features tiff spec \( \) specifically , need know tiff 6 0 supports vq decompression image tiling
nswc navy mil \( robert \) subject image format conversion tool organization naval surface warfare center lines 17 hello , anyone know image format conversion tool convert raw \( 8 bit grey scale \) image gif tif format would great tool ran pc , windows application , supported formats , 'll happy anything works attn code robert dahlgren division , naval surface warfare center dahlgren , va 5000 \( 703 \) 663 249 fax \( 703 \) 663 email nswc navy mil 128 38 158 43
stephens interlan com \( jack stephenson \) subject gl file \? distribution usa organization , sunrise , fl lines 27 article watson edu , watson edu \( john wallace \) 've got animation file gl extension \? anu ms dos os 2 programs run file \? thanks gl file archive containing individual frames pieces frames \( usually stored pic clp files \) , fonts , txt file tells grasp animation system display gl stands grasp library probably detailed discussion subject alt binaries pictures faq freely distributable viewers gl files , usually named \? exe \( replace \? version digit letter \) gl files contain frames hardware specific particular modes cga , ega , vga adapters pcs think copies available anonymous ftp \( know got one long time ago \) good luck jack jack stephenson main e mail j stephenson interlan com alternate e mail stephens interlan com p box ft lauderdale , fl usa phone \( 1 \) 305 846
fitz cse ogi edu \( bob \) subject vga graphics library keywords c , library , graphics article organization oregon grad inst computer science eng , beaverton lines 26 article uucp bill uucp \( bill sheppard \) writes many high end graphics cards come c source code basic graphics sorts things \( change colors , draw points lines polygons fills , etc \) library exist generic vga graphics cards chips , hopefully public domain \? would purpose compiling non dos operating system running standard pc i'm also interested info public domain commercial graphics library package pc vga graphics i'm currently working realtime application running non dos kernel needs simple graphics i'm sure graphics library going issue suspect 'll implement display controller server process handles graphics requests , queued mailbox , one time provides sufficiently frequent display updates believe restrict graphics operations performed server thus constrain access library single process avoid need graphics library fairly new realtime systems world may overlooking something , think \? cheers , bob fitz cse ogi edu \( 503 \) 297
larc nasa gov \( rick \) subject form 3 model loom organization nasa langley research center , hampton , va usa lines 25 distribution world nntp posting host larc nasa gov keywords 3 loom model hi folks , i'm animated film new loom research \( know , thing make cloth \) need model loom format ascii geometry fairly straight forward figure help pointers would greatly appreciated thanks rick rick \( larc nasa gov \) computer sciences corporation , hampton , va maybe could fly feed die tom marshall
vicente dgac fr \( martin vicente \( sid \) \) subject 3d input devices originator vicente keywords 3d , input , device organization c e n \( centre d'etudes de la navigation \) lines 11 hello , i'm interested devices could also send suggestions thank advance regards martin vicente \( e mail vicente dgac fr tph 69 84 56 88 \) centre d'etudes de la navigation div support informatique
nagle netcom com \( john nagle \) subject oriented bounding box generation \? summary want bounding box generator keywords bounding box oriented 3d organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 12 i'm looking code generate minimum volume oriented bounding box arbitrary anyone know code \? \? i'm converting objects one modelling system another , destination system object oriented want represent object coordinate system , bounding box , objects translated rotated appropriately , representation used destination system john nagle
mckinley ingr com \( chuck mckinley \) subject ray bezier intersection problem keywords bezier organization intergraph corp , reston , va lines 62 kind person access mathematical package mathematica , maple , would like ask solution following problem sometimes algebra problems like would like simplified symbolic solution ftp able package handle beasts \? would like solve following ray bezier patch intersection scalar constant p v q \( u , w \) \( origin point 3d \) \( dir vector 3d \) terms p v p various \( origin \) , \( dir 3d \) , \( , j \) 0 , j 3 q \( u , w \) u n b w n n 1 n 2 n 3 u u u u u u 1 \( 0 0 u 1 0 \) 3 2 u u u 1 \( particular case \) n n 1 n 2 n 3 w w w w w w 1 \( 0 0 w 1 0 \) 3 2 w w w 1 \( particular case \) n 1 3 3 1 \( particular case \) 3 6 3 0 3 3 0 0 1 0 0 0 b p p p p \( control points 3d space \) \( 0 , 0 \) \( 0 , 1 \) \( 0 , 2 \) \( 0 , 3 \) p p p p \( 1 , 0 \) \( 1 , 1 \) \( 1 , 2 \) \( 1 , 3 \) p p p p \( 2 , 0 \) \( 2 , 1 \) \( 2 , 2 \) \( 2 , 3 \) p p p p \( 3 , 0 \) \( 3 , 1 \) \( 3 , 2 \) \( 3 , 3 \) thanx , chuck elwood reston ingr com
tekig1 pen tek com \( robert j \) subject anonymous ftp sites graphics distribution usa organization tektronix , inc , beaverton , lines 9 someone please give couple names anonymous ftp sites graphics looking info sources images building ray tracer thanks , robert pen tek com
nagle netcom com \( john nagle \) subject point polygon routine needed organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 18 andrew lewis andrew cmu edu writes n't know routine standard , came recently polygon points p1 pn , point p , make table follows \( 1 \) angle p1 p p2 \( 2 \) angle p2 p p3 \( n \) angle pn p p1 express angles pi angle pi add entries table sum 0 , point outside sum pi , point inside point , strange polygon angle pi , point border think 's known , 's neat extended 3d \? john nagle
hed cats ucsc edu \( magic fingers \) subject pov ray related group needed organization university california santa cruz lines 32 nntp posting host ucsc edu hed cats ucsc edu \( magic fingers \) writes article 1993may13 exucom com cyberman exucom com \( stephen r phillips \) writes takes making alt group , \? 've following thread , , two months \? alt created 2 purposes 1 groups fit comp 'official' hierarchies 2 fast creation hot new newsgroups like alt gulf war voting process control facilities , sites free decide carry \( \) alt groups therefore , \( think \) desirable try create comp graphics raytrace , rendering whatever alt group wouter good point someone working \? 'd offer time help manage 'll going hear summer i'm trying , progress made \( pov mailing list \) hed advertisement advertisement miss one time sale sale sale sale ! h e tech selling thier model series geek ! limited time offer , 300 reduction usual price 8000 dollars buy one ! wait , sale ends sunday ! advertisement
shannon jpl nasa gov \( l \) subject raw byte grayscale gif organization jet propulsion laboratory , section 331 lines 15 distribution world nntp posting host shannon jpl nasa gov currently grayscale image files standard format simply contain 8 bit pixel values would like display images pc conversion gif format would helpful conversion take place either pc unix system could download pc anyone suggest find software \? alternatively , may write conversion program case , could someone tell find gif format specification \? please e mail directly shannon jpl nasa gov thanks
puff pnl gov \( annette koontz \) subject graphics software needed organization battelle pacific northwest labs , richland , wa lines 34 distribution world nntp posting host puff pnl gov originator puff pnl gov hello , looking graphics package \( preferably complete source code \) run unix operating system \( sequent running 3 2 \) graphics package must support wide variety character based graphics devices \( pc 's running terminal emulator , primarily \) point , x11 graphics option graphics program , possible , support sorts graphics operations \( minimum requirements \) 1 \) complicated axes \( log , linear , etc \) fairly precise axis labels \( multi line labels , etc \) major minor axes , etc 2 \) would nice limited amount color plotting available , output device supported copy gnuplot currently using , gnuplot limitations looking something robust gnuplot point , i'm looking information packages might solve problems information , please contact email address product know commercial software package , please send phone number email address contact pricing , etc annette koontz battelle pacific northwest richland , wa usa
kent dalton ftcollinsco ncr com \( kent dalton \) subject pov ray related group needed darkstar ucsc edu cs vu nl organization ncr microelectronics , ft collins , co lines 36 reply wlieftin cs vu nl 's message 17 may 93 09 42 18 gmt 17 may 93 09 42 18 gmt , wlieftin cs vu nl \( liefting w \) said liefting hed cats ucsc edu \( magic fingers \) writes article 1993may13 exucom com cyberman exucom com \( stephen r phillips \) writes takes making alt group , \? 've following thread , , two months \? liefting alt created 2 purposes 1 liefting groups fit comp 'official' liefting hierarchies 2 fast creation hot new newsgroups liefting like alt gulf war liefting voting process control liefting facilities , sites free decide carry \( \) liefting alt groups liefting therefore , \( think \) desirable try create liefting comp graphics raytrace , rendering whatever liefting alt group plus , many sites , \( especially many com sites \) carry alt newsgroups \( n't example \) comp group get much broader distribution would useful many people plus topic important popular enough warrant group , imho kent dalton email kent dalton ftcollinsco ncr com ncr microelectronics phone \( 303 \) 223 5100 x 319 2001 ct fax \( 303 \) 226 fort collins , colorado 80525 someone peoria shorter attention span \?
menchett unr edu \( peter j menchetti \) subject adobe type manager good \? \? organization university nevada , reno department computer science lines 9 subject says bought adobe type manager find completely useless atm fonts could n't install 's use \? supposed able convert atm fonts truetype \? 's anyone program actually finds useful , enlighten ! pete
jesup cbmvax cbm commodore com \( randell jesup \) subject products handle hdtv moving \( 180mb sec \) reply jesup cbmvax cbm commodore com \( randell jesup \) organization commodore , west chester , pa lines 31 co jp writes 'd like know system \( cpu hd array framebuffer \) play record hdtv quality moving picture realtime hdtv 6mb frame , recording playing moving picture need 180mb sec bandwidth i'm thinking treat raw data compressed actually , digital hdtv systems 's far higher bandwidth need , unless 's reason must work fully uncompressed hdtv also , calculations frame well 6mb , even using 24 bits pixel \( bits actually need 15 18 enough moving picture \) 3 5mb \( i'm guessing hdtv resolution may bit wider 1600 , i'm fairly sure 1100 number digital proposals \) hope fast memory system well 180mb displaying require heavily interleaved vram system unless compelling reason , 'd advise trying use least somewhat compressed data n't go full compression get level data io requirements much cheaper easier deal gnu emacs lisp operating system disguised word processor doug mohney , comp arch randell jesup , jack quite trades , commodore engineering jesup cbmvax commodore com rutgers ! cbmvax ! jesup bix disclaimer nothing say anything personal opinion
freenet carleton ca \( michael clark \) subject video memory reply palm bitnet organization national capital freenet lines 38 hello posted newsgroup recieved moderately helpful response couple issues appreciated much would however like know ther simply information subjects novice graphics programmer subjects 1 \) access extra video memory video board know somwhere standard video bios calls allow 1meg memory board according books info read \( maximum \) using 256k way standard vga cause seen paging \( written assembly , n't know \) written apps hat use mode 13h get speed \? 2 \) vesa standard gives read net offer vesa far coding vesa goes advice cryptic best get public domain info tell mostly plain english vesa calls work biggest gripe number 1 bought graphics books , asked graphics professors , hunted net gopher , archie , asked apps programmers like lock information graphics programming books tell alot algorithm information , always fall short telling really control video bios calls folks , know people know tis stuff , n't written book yet \? please help thanks advance stephen palm palm bitnet \( please send personal replies address , thanks \)
uts uni c dk \( h pedersen \) subject products handle hdtv moving \( 180mb sec \) organization uni c , danish computing centre research education lines 9 16 bit color hdtv work \? 5 bit red green blue like macintosh gives 64 gray levels apple also developed point point network around 200mb \( sure bits bytes \) per sec h pedersen macintosh specialist knows dos unix pope imv aau dk uts uni c dk finger pope imv aau dk pgp public key
val cc utah edu \( val \) subject hacker ethic go \? organization university utah computer center x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 133 vinci \( filipe vxcrna cern ch \) wrote article 1993may12 hal com , hal com \( bob pendleton \) writes article 1993may7 pony ingres com , ingres com \( mike \( muck \) meyer \) article 1993may7 hal com hal com \( bob pendleton \) writes getting pretty silly first , hacker obsolete term n't matter used mean , today means thief means thief want mean , means lots context omitted \) anyway , say joe hacker english speaking people know word 'll probably think either poor bad carpenter people think good clever programmer \) chose call term means thief n't surprised people think thief even n't agree definition word narrower view hacker , associated computing environment , dishonest expert widespread , i'm opinion , least people involved field imho wider meaning obsolete , matter much lay press would like ! therefore conclude call hacker , somebody perceives thief , person belongs small group computer knowledge , enough know wider \( original \) meaning word unfortunately , general public narrow view deep , dark recesses art computing little see view given media seen media , 'hacker' proper way refer respected person , hand , know 'hacker' means consider following definition jargon file 2 9 10 \( also known hackers dictionary \) definitions arranged order decreasing frequency usage hacker originally , someone makes furniture axe n 1 person enjoys exploring details programmable systems stretch capabilities , opposed users , prefer learn minimum necessary 2 one programs enthusiastically \( even obsessively \) enjoys programming rather theorizing programming 3 person capable hack value 4 person good programming quickly 5 expert particular program , one frequently work using 'a unix \( definitions 1 5 correlated , people fit \) 6 expert enthusiast kind one might astronomy hacker , example 7 one enjoys intellectual challenge overcoming circumventing limitations 8 malicious tries discover sensitive information poking around hence , see cracker term 'hacker' also tends membership global community defined net \( see network , internet address \) also implies person described seen subscribe version hacker \( see hacker ethic , \) better described hacker others describe oneself way hackers consider something elite \( based ability \) , though one new members gladly welcome thus certain ego satisfaction identifying hacker \( claim one , 'll quickly labeled bogus \) see also wannabee hacker ethic , n 1 belief information sharing powerful positive good , ethical duty hackers share expertise writing free software access information computing resources wherever possible 2 belief system cracking fun exploration ethically ok long cracker commits theft , vandalism , breach confidentiality ethical principles widely , means universally \) accepted among hackers hackers subscribe hacker ethic sense 1 , many act writing giving away free software go assert information free proprietary control bad philosophy behind gnu project sense 2 controversial people consider act cracking unethical , like breaking entering principle least moderates behavior people see crackers \( see also samurai \) view , one highest forms courtesy \( \) break system , \( b \) explain sysop , preferably email superuser account , exactly done hole plugged acting unpaid \( unsolicited \) tiger team reliable manifestation either version hacker ethic almost hackers actively willing share technical tricks , software , \( possible \) computing resources hackers huge cooperative networks usenet , fidonet internet \( see internet address \) function without central control trait rely reinforce sense community may 's valuable asset finally , true hacker name one , title bestowed users large , sign truly great hacker introduced someone says , know thing two , people always exagerate \) note definition preclude hacker describing \( meaning \) one , simply says better many know meaning 'hacker' , order defend true meaning word , sometimes necessary borrow reputation known \( respected \) hacker around workplace \( means 'hacker' defined terms well known respected person \) sometimes , may one person matter mr dumpty says , language n't work way actually , get adequate press coverage \) language works anyway want work purpose language communicate long communication taking place , language working include h amiga computer creative mind \( tm \) commodore weber state macintosh computer rest us \( tm \) apple university think , therefore amiga val weber edu ogden ut usa
mike leah prc utexas edu \( michael kline \) subject iges formats organization population research center , ut austin lines 10 trying find anything available documentation iges \( arc info \) formats know anything formats \( one \) please send note n't read group , please send responses mike prc utexas edu thank mike kline
nyx cs du edu \( dave dennis \) subject adobe type manager good \? \? organization university denver , dept math comp sci lines 29 menchett unr edu \( peter j menchetti \) writes subject says bought adobe type manager find completely useless atm fonts could n't install 's use \? supposed able convert atm fonts truetype \? 's anyone program actually finds useful , enlighten ! pete tricks installing atm windows install first dos , run atm control panel get windows best reason atm adobe standard truetype failed ms venture adobe adobe nasty keeping formats proprietary service bureau print shop send way bring truetype document high resolution printing ripping although lots pretty tt fonts floating around , really dot matrix lazer printer however , convert tt fonts similar program atm fonts high end stuff using dot matrix printing , may wasted money ! dave
ball ntu edu tw \( chin hsu \) subject print 0 's cgm file nntp posting host ntu edu tw organization meteorology data bank , dept atmospheric sciences , x newsreader tin 1 1 pl4 lines 17 lots cgm files produced ncar graph utility v3 00 color graphs , want print printers postscript , hp anyone experiences please tell , e mail nice someone knows convert cgm files gif pcx , bmp , helps lot
max slinky nyu edu \( david max \) subject needed non interactive gif pc summary need program crop pieces gifs crop coordinates specified command line keywords gif crop organization new york university lines 10 group gif images contain 6 small images place images need program crop small images new gif file programs find make use mouse keyboard define cropping coordinates program pc take crop coordinates command line \? reply max slinky cs nyu edu \( david max \)
simonson bert eecs uic edu \( shai simonson \) subject dec pc graphics tools organization university illinois chicago lines 28 applying nsf grant buy equipment laboratory lab need support c \( pascal \) graphics tools run lab either pc 's dec equipment familiar appropriate products \( software hardware \) precise prices please contact shai edu interested available discounts also , anyone runs lab using similar software hardware , would interested hearing opinions success thanks shai simonson college n e
eric ithaca com \( eric wagner \) subject email address ithaca \( hoops \) \? organization ithaca software lines 12 ithaca technical support reached tech support ithaca com phone 510 523 5900 eric wagner pp asel ia ithaca software eric ithaca com oakland flyers
adaptive cs nps navy mil \( zyda res acct \) subject 3d head model \( , \) organization naval postgraduate school , monterey lines 40 k , sorry post question seems crop quite regularly group however yet get specific usefull \( context \) answer get hold 3d data head looking simple description head face easily converted , used , pov \( raytracer \) \( e 1500 polygons \) well , placing file ftp today contains several polygonal descriptions head , face , skull , , etc format files list vertices , normals , triangles various resolutions name data file includes number polygons , eg phred 1 3k contains 1300 polygons order get data via ftp following 1 \) ftp taurus cs nps navy mil 2 \) login anonymous , guest password 3 \) cd pub dabro 4 \) binary 5 \) get cyber tar z get data onto workstation 1 \) uncompress data tar z 2 \) tar data tar questions , please let know george dabro dabro taurus cs nps navy mil george cyberware labs dabro taurus cs nps navy mil
state systems sa gov au subject processing half gif organization state systems , south australia lines 6 've playing program called modify gif files problem keeps displaying 50 image starting top , , leaves 20 blank , another 20 etc anyone know i'm wrong , another piece software use instead \? thanks tolerance !
spl pitstop ucsd edu \( steve lamont \) subject cgm files organization university calif , san diego microscopy imaging resource lines 32 nntp posting host pitstop ucsd edu article meyer meyer \( meyer \) writes book 've found cgm format , cgm b arnold p r springer verlag , isbn 3 540 5 's best book 've read though well , standards document faq 12 \) order standards documents american national standards institute sells ansi standards , also iso \( international \) standards sales office 1 212 642 4900 , mailing address 1430 broadway , ny ny helps complete name number useful numbers know cgm \( computer graphics metafile \) iso 4 \( 1987 \) gks \( graphical kernel system \) ansi x3 124 1985 want viewer , try downloading ralcgm unix hensa ac uk , misc unix ralcgm ralcgm tar z might also want look folks pittsburgh supercomputer center fish around psc edu pretty nifty spl steve lamont , sciviguy \( 619 \) 534 7968 spl szechuan ucsd edu san diego microscopy imaging resource uc san diego la jolla , ca 92093 0608 naked lunch natural us , eat reality much lettuce n't hide madness allen
wang andrew cmu edu subject help organization sponsored account , physics , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 12 nntp posting host po2 andrew cmu edu hi , looking help friend interior designer thailand trying find graphics software pc suggestion software buy , buy much costs \? likes sophisticated software \( features , better \) thanks advance
gellert trl oz au \( dennis gellert \) subject mouse jumpy \? \( ms mouse \) lines 25 organization telecom research article 1993apr23 cti com rlister cti com \( russell lister \) writes rlister cti com \( russell lister \) subject mouse jumpy \? \( ms mouse \) date fri , 23 apr 1993 14 01 23 gmt ecktons ucs byu edu \( sean eckton \) writes microsoft serial mouse using mouse com 8 00 \( using 8 20 think , switched 8 00 see better \) vertical motion nice smooth , horizontal motion bad sometimes ca n't click something mouse jumps around moving mouse right relatively uniform motion mouse move smoothly bit , jump right , move smoothly bit jump \( maybe time left 5 inch ! \) crazy ! never much trouble mouse anyone solutions \? microsoft think everyone \? venting steam ! 've seen problem several times always result little rollers inside mouse becomming dirty good collecting solution simple remove ball reveal two rollers carefully clean ball dennis
paladin world std com \( thomas g schlatter \) subject dos window macros organization world public access unix , brookline , distribution usa lines 17 article 1993apr27 csd newshost stanford edu herrod cs stanford edu \( stephen herrod \) writes anyone know program record keyboard sequences windowed dos box \? would like something starts telnet program logs accounts windows recorder n't seem able record key sequences thanks , steve think would need dos macro program \( borland \? \) comes mind n't think windows capable sending keystrokes dos window want sounds like security problem , though tom paladin world std com
othello ucdavis edu \( james e lee \) subject program manager problem organization university california , davis x newsreader tin 1 1 pl3 lines 19 anyone know configure dos app progman one instance running time \? 'd really appreciate help would prefer responses email 's big deal , least email well posting thank ! james e lee hamlet ucdavis edu swear life love never live sake another man , ask another man live mine john atlas shrugged
adelaide edu au \( \) subject actix video card drivers windows organization university adelaide lines 32 distribution world nntp posting host crackle itd adelaide edu au keywords actix graphics accelerator 1993apr24 jarvis csri toronto edu wongda eecg toronto edu \( daniel h wong \) writes looking latest drivers actix graphics accelerator card driver currently using version 1 21 n't support 256 colors 1024x768 mode even 2mb memory bbs support actix unbelievable ! still using 2400bps modem ! take hours download drivers , hurts calling long distance ftp site collection video drivers windows \? btw , anyone using card , like far \? good drivers \? \? daniel h wong uoft \( 416 \) 978 1659 anybody actix listening \? upload dang drivers ftp site \? ! cheers , department mechanical engineering university adelaide south australia ph 61 8 228 61 8 224 e mail adelaide edu au
iis netcom com \( international imaging syste \) subject postscript 600 dpi \? organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 20 using windows 3 1 printer driver , would like print file , output postscript file later , would like take postscript file machine attached hewlett packard 4m laser printer , print document 600 dots per inch resolution would like use method print wordperfect windows , image processing program output images postscript 's problem windows postscript printer driver \( drv \) n't allow specify 600 dpi fact , setup dialog driver pull menu resolution , choice given menu 300 ! really useful menu ideas \? david arnstein arnstein iis sun com international imaging systems milpitas , california
pwb aerg canberra edu au \( paul blackman \) subject workspace managers win 3 1 locations organization university canberra lines 62 article 1993apr27 906 bert eecs uic edu write cah tactix rain com \( chris huey \) writes jamie scuglia \( jamie zikzak apana org au \) wrote thanks people recommended workspace managers windows 3 1 found 3 shareware workspace managers , australia 's ms windows archive \( monu6 cc monash edu au \) , mirrors sites u three found 1 workspaces 1 10 \( wspace zip \) review deleted 2 workshift 1 6 \( wrksft16 zip \) review deleted 3 bigdesk 2 30 backmenu \( backdesk zip \) review deleted really appreciate information however , given n't direct internet access means n't archie access must resort using ftpmail means need site name directory workspace managers located backdesk zip cica , i'm sure whole directory another throw running cica , i'm sure complicated backdesk , 've found stable usefull recomend people already used virtual desktop oh yeh , 's free copyright microsoft sanford carl zmola cicero spc uchicago edu ok usefull applications locations cica mirrors desktop directory wrksft16 zip graphical virtual desktop \( ver 1 6 \) \( email author version 2 0 \) zip desktop tools windows 3 x \( backmenu 2 4 bigdesk later version backdesk \) zip virtual windows windows \? \? \? \? finder zip \? \? \? \? \? \? \? mac finder clone windows \( works well backmenu \) also look 2 0 due soon allows button bars added almost application paul blackman pwb science canberra edu au water research centre , pwb aerg canberra edu au faculty applied science \( \) university canberra , australia spend little love get high lenny
ashok biochemistry cwru edu \( ashok aiyar \) subject setting slip client dos windows \( long \) organization cwru school medicine lines 468 distribution comp nntp posting host axa12 slip dialin cwru edu summary get slip going pc keywords slip , phone , cslipper , winqvt net posting monthly setup slip client pc posts months lots work , imminent graduation come way posting one march earlier month apologize file includes information writing script university minnesota phone , also batch file hack lets use packet drivers phone additions , modifications corrections , reached ashok biochemistry cwru edu best wishes , ashok begin slip txt based experiences setting slip dos windows , comments setting slip environment thank trumpet beta testers cwru slip beta testers comments configuring modem \) turn dtr \( d0 w \) disable dtr communication program use dial slip server \( \) drops dtr exit program therefore hangs line use program like kermit establish slip connection , need done programs necessarily hangup line exit note use univ minn phone dial establish slip connection , need turn dtr b \) dial establish slip connection first done automatically use program like phone \( university minnesota \) dial establish slip connection load slip packet driver phone scripting language simple phone scripts easily written configure phone work slip server addition , packet driver phone works umslip \( currently \) , easy write batch file hack lets phone work packet drivers section phone document script batch file examples configuring slip drivers five slip packet drivers commonly available cslipper exe peter tattam 's compressed slip driver slipper exe peter tattam 's slip driver slip8250 com crynwr driver \( like phil burn 's modified driver \) ethersl com crynwr driver \( ethernet simulation slip \) umslip com univ minnesota driver \( based slip8250 \) four , vastly prefer c slipper exe slip8250 com ethersl com following reasons \) much faster even though modem 16450 uart b \) using slip8250 umslip , several others noticed pc clock gets messed performing long ftp transfer c \) supports pktmux used ethernet simulation mode \) used ethernet simulation mode c slipper seem work every tcp ip application tested instructions c slipper exe \( use phone \) \) load slipper autoexec bat file according instructions instance v 32bis modem com1 slipper com1 vec 62 baud 57600 b \) use dos tcp ip applications win 3 1 dos boxes , use double ended packet driver shim winpkt com creates virtual packet driver 0x60 dos applications native mode , dos applications windows 3 1 dos boxes windows applications use virtual driver 0x60 winpkt com 0x60 0x62 c \) use qvt net , load pktint com next qvt net configured qvtnet ini use interrupt 0x60 pktint com instructions slip8250 com \) try getting version 10 slip driver philip burns northwestern university modified slip8250 com driver better hardware handshaking driver distributed along b \) load driver establishing slip connection modem v 32bis modem com1 , would load driver slip8250 w 0x62 h 4 slip 57600 c \) discussed use dos tcp ip applications windows 3 x dos boxes , probably want use winpkt com winpkt com 0x60 0x62 \) use winqvt net , load pktint com pktint com instructions ethersl com choose use ethersl com instead slip8250 com , instructions exactly one crucial difference delete line device vcd 386enh section system ini interfere running regular windows comm applications \( crosstalk \) , get lots dropped characters etc applications therefore recommended would loaded ethersl w 0x62 h 4 57600 configuring windows 3 1 \) make following modifications system ini file 386enh section \) list com ports , addresses interrupts 4 3 5 also done within windows control panel , double clicking ports icon ii \) give port modem attached generous com buffer 10000 iii \) change com port value com port wish use modem zero amount time windows waits seconds handing control com port another application use winqvt net want switch one session another , value default value 2 seconds , get gpf windows crash 0 also done within windows control panel double click 386 enhanced , device contention , set device contention com port modem never warn additional notes assigned different ip address slip session \? fortunate campus slip server assigns user permanent ip address , worry editing qvtnet ini time establish slip connection assigned new ip address every occasion dial , please try use bootp aware software , let bootp configuration however , qvtnet bootp aware work slip connection get qvtnet working situation , must following edit qvtnet ini file let net section look like net name ip 255 255 255 0 \( whatever appropriate \) 20 packet vector 60 \( whatever appropriate \) save changes , write protect file r qvtnet ini start slip connection , remember name ip address assigned time start qvt net 3 1x , general configuration dialog box open enter name ip address assigned session , click ok , running changes make saved , qvtnet ini write protected elegant solution problem dynamic slip ip address assignment provided victor \( victor ccwf cc utexas edu \) victor uses program bootpq semi automate qvtnet preparation bootpq used inquire assigned ip , saved file called myip another file essentially complete qvtnet ini file lacks ip address final step myip copied single qvtnet ini file example victor 's batch file provided slipper com2 pktint com bootpq ip myip bootpq ip copy q net myip e com qvtnet qvtnet ini del q myip echo echo echo ready run winqvtnet questions details bootpq , please contact victor \( victor ccwf cc utexas edu \) software attempting add bootp capability winqvt net use pktmux slip \? pktmux work slip8250 com packet driver , crashes immediately used ethersl com pktmux work c slipper exe , c slipper used ethernet simulation mode example configuration shown latest release pktmux 1 2c important use version , want use virtual packet drivers applications like trumpet windows \( released shortly \) autoexec bat lh c slipper com1 vec 65 baud 57600 ether \( packet driver \) lh pktmux 5 65 5 \( pktmux loaded 5 virtual packet drivers \) lh pktdrv 7f 65 \( first virtual packet driver used qvt net \) lh pktint com \( qvt net pktint com \) pktdrv 63 65 \( pktdrv use native dos wintrumpet \) additional virtual packet drivers loaded directly within windows 3 1 dos boxes example , pif file load popmail directed file popmail bat popmail bat reads like pktdrv 60 65 loads virtual packet driver 0x60 cd popmail popmail cd pktdrv 60 u packet driver 0x60 exit causes dos window close similar batch files load dos tcp ip applications like pc gopher experience pktmux works fine even virtual packet drivers two independent virtual dos sessions , loaded software interrupt example within two different dos boxes one popmail gopher , virtual packet driver \( pktdrv \) loaded 0x60 instance much pktmux degrade performance c slipper \? v 32bis v 42bis modem 386 33 running windows 3 1 reasonably fast video card \( ati graphics ultra \) conditions , three virtual packet drivers loaded used follows \) driver qvtnet ftp client session b \) driver 0x60 one dos window tn3270 session c \) driver 0x60 another dos window trumpet dos get ftp transfer rates 0 8 1 0 kb sec transferring compressed files rate comparable get slip8250 loaded packet driver , single tcp ip session active cslipper used packet driver single session active , get transfer rates 1 3 1 4 kb sec files 40 degradation performance slipper , benefits able use pktmux outweigh performance hit c slipper ethernet simulation mode ethernet simulation mode , c slipper ver 1 3 works applications tested one two applications required ethernet simulation balked c slipper 1 2 , even rare problems resolved ver 1 3 slipper used ethernet simulation mode , used pktmux , get error message qvtnet console window reads ip incorrect packet type ip bad version number seem prevent qvtnet functioning , although cannot comment loss performance dos tcp ip application work c slipper ethernet simulation mode \? rare event find package work c slipper ethernet simulation mode , first contact author peter tattam peter psychnet psychol utas edu au , let know chances fix meanwhile , try following know kosher , worked problems c slipper ver 1 2 \( c slipper loaded 0x62 described pktmux section \) load ethersl com 0x60 , run application terminate ethersl com also works within windows 3 1 virtual dos boxes however packet driver like ethersl used one virtual dos box time example , batch file run grateful med \( medical reference retrieval program developed national library medicine \) ethersl w 0x60 h 4 57600 loads cd search cd termin 0x60 terminates exit closes dos box returns windows use method , cautious one thing n't active pktmux dos sessions open time closing ethersl window , run pktmux dos sessions problem btw , example grateful med , works problems c slipper ver 1 3 phone script files documentation accompany phone , provide good instructions writing script files get phone dial slip servers university minnesota server example script use dial cisco server university attend background start slip connection , dial terminal server , login username password , start slip session following command slip username slip dialin cwru edu , followed password relevant portion phone cmd script file cwru ts2 slip login script ashok aiyar 3 26 93 last revised 3 28 93 procedure host cwru login timeout 60 ts2 terminal server message cwru ts2 slip login script version 1 1 message slip server quiet expect message user verification received cwru message user name quiet expect ' send ' u ' expect ' private send ' p ' reject user name password timeout 30 server respond validation expect ts2 ' send ' timeout 10 server respond slip expect hostname address ' send ' u slip dialin cwru edu ' timeout 10 server respond reject ip address' expect ' send ' p ' reject accepted ' timeout 10 expect compression match system' message cwru slip server wait 1 0 host cwru login procedure host cwru logout nothing special needs done logout host cwru logout end script file use packet drivers umslip phone \? quick answer clean way batch file hack wrote use phone packet drivers example , packet driver peter tattam 's cslipper use batch file like , must know parameters plan use packet driver e interrupt vector , baud rate , port address , irq batch file requires umslip com , cslipper exe , termin com directory path batch file let dial slip connection using phone , load appropriate packet driver , hangup connection , unload driver done cwruslip bat echo rem batch file ugly hack u minn slip bat rem awaiting version c slipper directly interact rem phone rem cwruslip bat file used phone exe start slip rem connection cwru ts2 rem last modified 3 28 93 ashok aiyar echo goto start start 1 \? goto help 1 help goto help 1 setup goto setup 1 dial goto forced 1 hangup goto 1 quit goto 1 help goto help 1 setup goto setup 1 dial goto forced 1 quit goto goto bogus goto unload termin 0x60 umslip phone force hangup goto unload slipper termin 0x60 rem following line must changed reflect com port , rem irq , baud rate , software interrupt lh c packet cslipper com1 vec 60 baud 57600 ether goto end forced termin 0x60 umslip phone force dial goto slipper setup termin 0x60 umslip phone setup goto help unload termin 0x60 goto end bogus echo 1 valid command echo try cwruslip help list valid commands echo help echo echo case western reserve university slip setup echo using univ minnesota phone echo echo cwruslip setup modem settings , phone number , username etc echo echo cwruslip dial dial establish slip connection echo cwruslip quit hangup phone unload driver echo cwruslip help screen echo end end cwruslip bat get peter tattam 's programs archived ftp utas edu au \( c slipper , trumpet set programs \) winqvt net generally archived windows ftp sites , including ftp cica indiana edu ncsa telnet archived ftp ncsa uiuc edu archived ftp acns nwu edu popmail pc , , phone , pc gopher archived boombox micro umn edu end slip txt ashok aiyar mail ashok biochemistry cwru edu department biochemistry tel \( 216 \) 368 3300 cwru school medicine , cleveland , ohio fax \( 216 \) 368 4544
eng umd edu \( howard \) subject please refresh internet access compuserve organization project glue , university maryland , college park lines 12 nntp posting host delta eng umd edu article syshtg gsusgi1 gsu edu syshtg gsusgi2 gsu edu \( tom gillman \) writes cheong solomon technet sg \( scstech admin \) writes sometime ago discussions gaining compuserve access thru internet seem misplace articles someone please refresh \( site \) telnet gain access send message compuserve user via internet e mail enter mail mode address receiver follows 313 compuserve com number receiver 's compuserve number users number contains comma anything period , change period
cant world std com \( jim cant \) subject msdos prompt problem organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 28 really bothersome problem using msdos prompt windows 3 1 open dos box done dos box , cant get back windows alt enter shrink box use close , screen goes black control alt delete kill windows get couple screens app responding think things still alive black screen alt tab cycle running apps , get flashes text black returns persists even machine powered working app developed using borland 's 3 1 application frameworks c seems work fine hardware 486 ram network video tseng vga dos 5 0 reinstalled windows couple time problem comes back using temporary swapping virtual memory would really really appreciate hints anyone might offer thanks , jim cant
louray seas gwu edu \( michael panayiotakis \) subject bmp format mean \? organization george washington university lines 18 article robertsa unix2 tcd ie robertsa unix2 tcd ie \( andrew l roberts \) writes exactly windows bitmap format look like \? mean , data stored width , height , colours , bitmap data \? could n't find anything ths user manual , reference material would give information \? thanks , andrew well , guess goes true meaning bit map , holds \( x , , c \) x pixel number th ex direction , pixel number dir , c colour pe michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace ! uunet ! seas gwu edu ! louray make ms windows grp file reflect hd directory \? \? well ai n't always right , 've never wrong \( gd \)
paladin world std com \( thomas g schlatter \) subject newsgroup archive organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 7 newsgroup archived anywhere beyond normal expiration dates , say last 6 months \? thanks , tom paladin world std com
claebaur shell portal com \( tony annese \) subject trouble sound blaster pro drivers keywords nntp posting host jobe organization portal communications company 408 973 9111 \( voice \) 408 973 8091 \( data \) lines 21 article kaz iastate edu kaz iastate edu \( shroud \) writes recently , windows starting giving error sound blaster pro requires newer version windows 3 1 worked correctly long time , n't know problem could thanks ! problem initially installed sound blaster pro 's tech support told told look files stated readme file win31 subdirectory directory look system ini file say device 386 change device thats work system ini file erased reason \? would reason would think giving error tony annese claebaur shell portal com claebaur cup portal com
subject hiragana katakana tt fonts cs aukuni ac nz \( keith stuart \) organization computer science dept university auckland keywords hiragana , katakana , truetype , japanese lines 12 newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject hiragana katakana tt fonts keywords hiragana , katakana , truetype , japanese obtain truetype hiragana katakana \( japanese phonetic character \) fonts \? \( note receive mail address header , cannot send \) kw 8 \)
ak333 cleveland freenet edu \( martin linsenbigler \) subject standard enhanced question organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 31 reply ak333 cleveland freenet edu \( martin linsenbigler \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu win 3 1 sometimes \? new dell 486dx2 66mhz 8 megs ram windows working great bus mouse mother board problem dell replaced mouse , gave newer mouse driver windows replaced motherboard prior problem windows would load every time would get logo either would go windows lock consistent every time new motherboard , still thing computer less one month old first worked fine ! get windows time win command forces standard mode things seem run slower mainly use windows apps , standard mode virtual mem plus slower loaded windows , still thing first delete everything windows dir 's \? much added sub dir 's etc really puzzling enhanced mode would load time consistently every time standard mode time thoughts comments \? \? \? c ya artin communication sent artin university arizona tucson ak333 cleveland freenet edu mlinsenb ccit arizona edu mlinsenb arizvms death dead 2 , 000 years follow king kings
yuan wiliki eng hawaii edu \( maw ying yuan \) subject replacement program manager file manager \? organization university hawaii , college engineering lines 12 hi , could someone please suggest one better shareware replacements win3 1 's program manager file manager \? ftp site located \? thanks advance e mail response yuan wiliki eng hawaii edu \)
marlow world std com \( mark j marlow \) subject video cards bnc connectors \? organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 25 sam ms uky edu \( mike mills \) writes hello , recently bought nec order get highest possible quality refresh rates , 'd like know accelerator cards bnc connectors \( opposed usual sub connector \) \? know vga type cards bnc outputs , sells vga bnc cable set works good 5fg trying optimize display good video card try contacting 9 , 1 800 get nine use like level 9 card thanks information , mike mills e mail sam ms uky edu , rutgers , uunet ! ukma ! sam uk math sciences dept mike uky edu \( 606 \) 257 1429 \( work \) 263 0721 \( home \) mark marlow marlow world std com
russ deakin oz au \( russ sharp \) subject true type font problem repost please help organization deakin university , victoria , australia lines 23 distribution world nntp posting host ariel eng deakin oz au word 2 0c n't show period centred character indicate spaces use ttfonts coreldraw editors need able see many spaces text character displayed large hollow box overlap characters side , useless believe character used w4w period centred \( 0183 \) character shows windows display hollow box tends confirm edited corel font changing font graphics 0183 character makes difference font output w4w altering paragraph \( \) \( \) alter font graphics displayed however ! ! w4w character used indicate spaces period centred character \? anyone able get character displayed coreldraw ttf \? russ sharp russ deakin edu au ph \( 052 \) 27 1141 fax \( 052 \) 27 2015 deakin university , school engineering technology , , australia
russ deakin oz au \( russ sharp \) subject windows zip unzip organization deakin university , victoria , australia lines 13 distribution world nntp posting host ariel eng deakin oz au using pkzip v2 04 interested hear people used one many windows programs call ones available one stand amongst rest \? full windows version call dos pkzip pkunzip commands \? russ sharp russ deakin edu au ph \( 052 \) 27 1141 fax \( 052 \) 27 2015 deakin university , school engineering technology , , australia
subject boot sometimes fails lux latrobe edu au \( matthew gillard \) organization la trobe university lines 10 sometimes boot windows 3 1 , windows logo comes han gs , using dos 6 doublespace , 5 meg temp swap file uncompressed drive press reset button computer , windows boots fine \? \? \? dos 6 \? matthew gillard , blessed run around computer systems engineering , circles , shall la trobe university , known wheels
info \( paul kelly \) subject bmp format mean \? organization curtin university technology x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 9 andrew l roberts \( robertsa unix2 tcd ie \) wrote exactly windows bitmap format look like \? mean , data stored width , height , colours , bitmap data \? could n't find anything ths user manual , reference material would give information \? thanks , andrew try windows multimedia development kit , file formats defined
subject stealth 24 video drivers ch organization university geneva , switzerland lines 16 article doug 4 sun sws uiuc edu , doug sun sws uiuc edu \( doug ward \) writes recently purchased diamond stealth 24 video card received wrong drivers anyone know ftp windows video drivers stealth 24 tried drivers cica n't work right drivers diamond bbs file almost 1 meg would take download 2400 baud information would appreciated please contact doug sun sws uiuc edu thank doug ward problem diamond stealth vram card daniel
huebner informatik uni stuttgart de \( ralf huebner \) subject driver wanted reply huebner informatik uni stuttgart de organization , university stuttgart , germany lines 19 hello , i'm looking driver ibm 2 color ink jet printer pointers welcome thanks advance ralf huebner informatik uni stuttgart de
phoenix oulu fi \( petri \) subject bmp format mean \? organization university oulu , finland x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 30 michael panayiotakis \( louray seas gwu edu \) wrote article robertsa unix2 tcd ie robertsa unix2 tcd ie \( andrew l roberts \) writes exactly windows bitmap format look like \? mean , data stored width , height , colours , bitmap data \? could n't find anything ths user manual , reference material would give information \? well , guess goes true meaning bit map , holds \( x , , c \) x pixel number th ex direction , pixel number dir , c colour come fellows ! format quite plainly explained manuals 's programmer 's reference , volume 3 messages , structures , macros \( msc dev kit 3 1 , also borland 's manuals \) pages 232 241 \( depending need \) first bitmapfileheader struct contains bitmapinfoheader rgbquad bitmap data also example among example files \( ms sdk \) hope helps yes , prior knowledge nothing dangerous dragons , totally harmless opinion kicking might right way test shut run ! sunrise oulu fi phoenix oulu fi oulu fi 's possible opinions , must mine
kayman xenon stanford edu \( robert kayman \) subject summary canon bj200 vs hp deskjet 500 organization computer science department , stanford university lines 401 hello , week one half ago posted query looking people feelings inkjet family printers specifically , comparison canon bj200 \( bubblejet \) hewlett packard deskjet 500 many people asked post summary account postings e mail received original query responses received deleted part responses , headers signatures , extract find necessary people asked unbiased account however , nature question suggests biased comments , must extract information believe unbiased fair representation printer wide range comments , value clear winner , like bj200 \( especially price performance ratio \) , others preferred durability reliability deskjet \( original inkjet proven drivers solid background \) two new inkjet printers drawn attention , new printer introduced hewlett packard later year \( around summertime \) , addition epson product line \( first inkjet \) find initial purchase , costs filling replacing ink cartridges \( largely depends purchase fills replacements shop around first since aspect likely dominate cost printer \) one mentioned approx many sheets ink cartridge print , suspect roughly equal 1000 1500 sheets \( laser printers 4000 5000 sheets per toner cartridge \) well , 's brief research summary personal research enjoy ! hello fellow 'netters asking collected wisdom help decide printer purchase , canon bj200 \( bubblejet \) vs hp deskjet 500 thought , rather trust salesperson , would benefit relying use printers daily use fullest potential , figure know benefits pitfalls better salesperson , would greatly appreciate information could render 360 dpi canon bubblejet vs hewlett packard deskjet 500 \( 300 dpi \) faster \? noticeable print quality difference , particularly graphics \? handle large documents better \( 75 pages \) personal experience either appreciated \? works better windows 3 1 \( driver problems , etc \) \? cost memory , font packages , toner cartridges , etc \? basically , personal experiences either machines highly desirable , good bad well bought bj 200 month ago start 50 rebate program printer \( ends 5 31 \) , bought computer discount warehouse price 325 could n't beat anywhere looked , think 's hot printer using regular copier paper produced fantastic results high quality mode compared output micrografx designer legal size drawing type done bj 200 drawing printed hp laserjet iid amazed well could read small print bj 200 printing speed several seconds faster bj 200 amazing considering hp 2 5m ram installed measured time printer first indicated receiving data \( used print manager windows \) showed output several people work one manager bought one immediately office , two engineers placed orders need cdw 's phone number , 's 800 598 delivery ny two days good luck ! craig , corp mot com motorola communications electronics inc glen rock , nj deskjet 500 performance n't spectacular windows using truetype fonts neither canon seen quality hp much dependent paper quality photo copy paper characters slightly edges better quality type paper things look better applications find copy paper fine still better dot matrix comes windows driver , seems pass print manager , hp scaleable fonts probably faster truetype n't really tried get ram font cartridges unless speed truetype problem would n't bother ram cartridges ca n't used buffer soft fonts graphics , e bmp images etc hp put dither mode via hp supplied win driver number dither options , etc manual gives recommendations depending type image printed text good mode problem arises document contains graphic text range tones graphic images n't brilliant think limitation inkjet printers general seen canon similar respects however , printer definitely worth looking new inkjet epson printer faster , cheaper , capable producing laser like quality normal copier paper ca n't remember model , lx something think \? purchased hp days epson released introductory price epson hp new zealand month ago , got canon bj200 absolutely love incredibly fast , except printing pspice \( n't know ever stuff \) stuff print either microsoft word windows plain text problems 've printing headers \( printer \) , printing cheap paper \( lots streaks \) normal copy paper works great , tell 's laser printed holding , oh , less twelve inches face \( , 're , like ! \) \) printer comes driver windows 3 1 ! ! complaints printer also act like epson another archaic software packages n't written driver yet teeny footprint real plus , , purchase may 31 , get 50 rebate canon ! ! bought mine store called compusa , price 340 friend hp looking also prints well , everyone drivers , slow ! hope helped ! \( sure looks great ! \) heather article 1993apr19 mot com , corp mot com \( craig \) writes message 1993apr18 csd newshost stanford edu kayman csd 3 stanford edu \( robert kayman \) writes hello fellow 'netters asking collected wisdom help decide printer purchase , canon bj200 \( bubblejet \) vs hp deskjet 500 thought , rather trust salesperson , would benefit relying use printers daily use fullest potential , figure know benefits pitfalls better salesperson \( various questions deleted \) well bought bj 200 month ago start 50 rebate program printer \( ends 5 31 \) , bought computer discount warehouse price 325 could n't beat anywhere looked , think 's hot printer using regular copier paper produced fantastic results high quality mode compared output micrografx designer legal size drawing type done bj 200 drawing printed hp laserjet iid amazed well could read small print bj 200 printing speed several seconds faster bj 200 amazing considering hp 2 5m ram installed measured time printer first indicated receiving data \( used print manager windows \) guess experience bj 300 work deskjet 500 home prefer deskjet printing speed quality similar \( tested text graphics buying deskjet home \) feature sets deskjet apart driver support many applications bj ends epson lq ibm proprinter get work many non windows apps case long time design superior want use cut paper , deskjet quieter , ink cartridges quite bit cheaper due number deskjets comparision 0 02 worth mike agricultural group monsanto p box 174 , la internet address monsanto com yes , landscape mode printing problem , present problem windows windows printer driver handles translation actually thought points posted note deskjet area approximately around paper bubblejet right graphics resolutions , tested printers applications access wordperfect , harvard graphics , wingif , paintshop pro , paintbrush could tell difference fact one hp deskjet windows drivers gives significant control contrast density printer hence controlling amount ink put bubblejet imaging software test printers comparision finally , wanted sheet feeding configuration bubblejet cost approximately 100 deskjet went pretty thorough evaluation chose deskjet spent money btw , replacing bj 300 deskjet 500 work month anyway regards mike ag group monsanto , la spent time comparing two ended getting bubblejet bj 200 versus hp reasons 1 \) hp seemed worse banding canon 2 \) versus 300 felt could see difference 3 \) price canon 50 rebate program going moment bj 200 choice bj could 100 pages bj 200 feeder bj holds 30 pages , think see , 100 pages bj 200 n't done anything big bj , performance seems reasonable windows know microsoft bbs newer windows driver comes printer , n't know compares \( also driver included printer canon 's whereas n't know microsoft bbs one comes microsoft \? \) hope helps thomas v , cci com , ! uunet ! uupsi ! cci632 ! , cs rit edu meal eats ! i'm sometimes also salesperson \( i'm study \) \) would recommend buy bj200 printing quality bit better , 've got much n't forget hp engine least 2 years marked , canon engine \( witch also used new bubblejet printers like e g epson ones \) quite recently available , would greatly appreciate information could render 360 dpi canon bubblejet vs hewlett packard deskjet 500 \( 300 dpi \) faster \? noticeable print quality difference , particularly graphics \? handle large documents better \( 75 've seen short demonstration \( someone sell canon printers \) 2 times picture , one printed bj200 , one canon , hp , difference printing quality , canon bit better , kris decided needed quiet printers hospital looked inkjet printers near laser quality , speed , quiet use hp deskjets canon bj prefer paper handling qualities deskjets feel canons superior print quality ideal would canon sheet feeder , however end buying deskjet home use \( got good deal \) anyway , using canons high volume areas holding well 15 deskjets 4 bj one problem deskjet taken care quickly hp nate whenever buy anything look experts say , pick top buy whatever criteria apt 've unusually flush lately \( begging letter please \) 've done times including four months ago inkjet printers ca n't remember much process except read three reviews 500 always near top bought 500c added dimension colour \( intend build multi media machine stage bought colour scanner towards \) although 's used colour thing earnest yet tried couple windows bitmaps pleased result note even though get \( one colour mono need change cartridge \) , 500c 500 still readily available \( least uk \) following views experience 1 n't know anything canon except came away reviews \( replies posting similar \) idea hp offered best performance price ratio 2 believe hp originals field always ideal place market 's still young one assumes expertise 3 500c worth extra operation mono perfectly acceptable get good crisp reproduction fonts windows 4 used work still manufactured \( american owners closed ! \) tell terms definition 300 dpi pretty poor anyway 360 dpi bit less poor 5 hp comes reasonable set drivers 6 buy invest additional ram pack 's pretty slow , god knows 's like without ! actually work germany pc home uk 's daily use would say apart reading manual properly really dumb problem start 's easy operate hope use regards david bought bj 200 thought price could n't beat \( 329 , 50 rebate thru 5 31 \) far comparable , even superior , deskjet print quality speed per page rate seems faster \( n't figures \) n't print long docs , though quality think graphics quality excellent print quality excellent well , unless use small fonts hold close see lot laserjet 360 dpi offset little less accuracy holding page print head place , would imagine large docs room standard model whole pages manual says 100 , though n't tried drivers problems win3 1 yet winword n't want print envelopes way canon , though know nothing add costs daniel hartung dhartung chinet chinet com ask rotaract deskjet slow comparison printers mentioned idea bubblejet compares interface win3 1 printer dandy , 've problems bought bj 200 printer couple days ago compared sample print hp deskjet 500 knew hp n't bj 200 pretty fast really prints good quality compare hp laserjet postscript look almost identical \( depending kind paper \) n't problems ink dry , seems dry fast probably within second since canon giving 50 rebate end may , really good buy sean eckton computer support representative college fine arts communications wow , 's funny ask i'm little behind news reading know may late purchased canon bubblejet last night really worried would n't like print quality , noise level fantastic ! printed quite documents lots graphics printed damn near laser quality ca n't tell 's laser unless get 2 inches page problems drivers printer came driver diskette good beginning panic could n't windows wordperfect works well yet install word windows n't know works deskjet 500 work last year good printer well ut felt awfully slow much bubblejet wo n't say bubblejet much better , really like 0 02 worth brett sincerely , robert kayman kayman cs stanford edu cpa cs stanford edu theory , theory practice practice , mean want revised revision original revised revision revised \? ! \? !
cfw world std com \( christopher f wroten \) subject question eisa video board performance keywords eisa , video , performance organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 25 eisa machine understand eisa video cards match performance isa counterparts instance , eisa orchid pro designer iis e fast isa diamond speedstar plus , n't would call fast n't understand eisa video cards n't , group , level performance local bus cards , given eisa video cards 32 bit bus move data around , instead isa 's 8 bits since , would anyone \( included \) pay higher cost eisa video card performance better often worse much cheaper isa video board , diamond speedstar 24x \? pc magazine 's \( think \) recent report , know ati makes pretty fast eisa video card , 's around 500 , double wallet allow spend , 500 , could get diamond viper still 100 left \( course , 'd get local bus mother board \) anyone shed light confusion frustration \? thanks ! christopher wroten , cfw world std com
e kth se \( borg \) subject need longer filenames lines 32 nntp posting host ohm e kth se reply e kth se \( borg \) organization school ee , royal institute technology , sweden article zephyr grace cri nz , maystonr grace cri nz \( richard \) writes path kth se ! ! pipex ! uunet ! noc near net ! howland reston ans net ! wupost ! waikato ac nz ! comp vuw ac nz ! zephyr grace cri nz ! zephyr grace cri nz ! usenet newsgroups comp os ms windows misc subject need longer filenames message id zephyr grace cri nz maystonr grace cri nz \( richard \) date mon , 26 apr 93 03 24 42 gmt 1 00 sender maystonr grace cri nz references 1993apr19 guinness idbsu edu infoserv com distribution world organization industrial research ltd , new zealand nntp posting host grace cri nz lines 10 article infoserv com infoserv com \( howard mitchell feldman \) writes 1993apr19 guinness idbsu edu , lhighley gozer idbsu edu \( larry paul \) wrote utility let use filenames longer standard 8 3 format yep , 's called os2 ! yep , use type unix , maybe vms , buy mac something want longer filenames documents , heard wordprocessor windows let assign long names files long filenames could seen programs open save dialogs though maybe someone knows wordprocessor \?
wild access digex net \( wildstrom \) subject standard enhanced question organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 27 nntp posting host access digex net ak333 cleveland freenet edu \( martin linsenbigler \) writes win 3 1 sometimes \? new dell 486dx2 66mhz 8 megs ram windows working great bus mouse mother board problem dell replaced mouse , gave newer mouse driver windows replaced motherboard prior problem windows would load every time would get logo either would go windows lock consistent every time much deleted thoughts comments sounds like memory conflict problem , cause truly weird symptoms like call dell tech support \( better , post account \) get memory range \( \) used video ram machine block windows using ranges statement 386enh section system ini probably include statement excluding range emm386 whatever memory manager use config sys dell installs windows machines ship , installation n't consist much copying files hard disk still work fact problem enhanced mode standard strongly suggests high memory conflict
pk64380 kaarne cs tut fi \( pasi petri , , , sig , \) subject program manager two questions originator pk64380 kaarne cs tut fi nntp posting host kaarne cs tut fi reply pk64380 kaarne cs tut fi organization tampere university technology , dep computer science lines 16 article axion uucp , wefiii axion uucp \( warren e iii \) 1993apr22 vpnet chi il us lisbon vpnet chi il us \( gerry swetsky \) writes \( 2 \) set short cut key return program manager \? know ctl esc , esc , 'd rather set avoid task list get back p alt f1 might try recorder make micro n't amazing \? \? \) seriously , add program manager startup group define shortcut works zi
raman cs cornell edu \( v raman \) subject programs ms windows summary looking screen access program ms windows keywords talking workstations , programs , screen access window organization cornell univ cs dept , ithaca ny 14853 lines 20 hi , use pc screen access program \( ibm screen reader \) speech synthesizer \( accent sa \) would like find screen access programs windows platform heard couple beta testing , would like find addresses prices etc thanks , raman v raman raman cs cornell edu tel \( 607 \) 255 r 272 office hall , department computer science , cornell university ithaca ny 14853 6201 res 226 bryant avenue ithaca ny
doc magna com \( matthew j \) subject looking text search engine \( \) organization magna software corporation lines 11 i'm looking information regarding text search engines specifically , 'd prefer source binaries run ms windows unix environment scanning either flat files common db structures references pd , shareware , commercial implementations welcome please reply via email 'll summarize desired thanx ! doc
idt unit \( h bj \) subject help ! sucks ! \? ! \? ! \? ! \( ! \) reply idt unit \( h bj \) organization norwegian technology lines 26 getting desperate report must finished midnight , w4w n't seem appears must ! use field numbering chapters , document distributed amongst several files ca n't find way make word start numbering something else 0 1 course , everything fine first file , 's pretty stupid chapters numbered 1 ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! please , solution \( except putting one 10m document \) e mail immediately ! working th report hardly time read news , please e mail answers welcome advance , thanx lot ! ! ! ! ! ! frode v 9 , trondheim idt unit \( \( 8th day , , , god created rock roll
ardie ux1 cso uiuc edu \( ardie mack \) subject windows zip unzip organization department plant pathology lines 15 ccastco prism gatech edu \( costas malamas \) subject windows zip unzip date 28 apr 93 22 31 55 gmt article 1rl9b6 h3c sol deakin oz au russ deakin oz au \( russ sharp \) writes using pkzip v2 04 interested hear people used one many windows programs call full windows version call dos pkzip pkunzip commands \? russ sharp russ deakin edu au ph \( 052 \) 27 1141 fax \( 052 \) 27 2015 , replacement extracts , pkzip 2 04 require unzip order work , 10 register
reed hpcc01 corp hp com \( perry reed \) subject redirect print manager file \? organization hewlett packard co lines 34 hpcc01 comp os ms windows misc u7911093 cc nctu edu tw \( swh \) 9 58 apr 24 , 1993 hello , tell find pd shareware capture windows 3 1 's output printer \? want capture output hp laser jet iii though postscript setup print file , hp ca n't try dos 's redirect program , ca n't work windows 3 1 thankx help print file hp \( printer \) go printers section control panel select printer want direct file , click connect choose file port connect printer print application printer , windows prompt file name file want capture printout 's pretty easy good luck ! ' ' perry reed ` perry reed desk hp com ' ` ' ' ` ' `` ` ` ` young , foolish , lucky love ' ' '
frode ifi unit \( frode kvam \) subject auto check boxes organization institutt informatikk , tr heim , lines 26 x newsreader tin 1 1 pl4 question boxes windows possibility let boxes several different colors time \? frode kvam \) \( c \) name frode kvam univ university trondheim , dept informatics e mail frode ifi unit snail mail 8 trondheim voice 47 7 50 45 06 beware programmers carry screwdrivers
csir co za \( dominique \) subject boot sometimes fails organization csir lines 21 nntp posting host 146 64 134 195 x disclaimer none expressed herein official x disclaimer opinions csir subsidiaries x disclaimer n't freak us anything article 1993apr28 latrobe edu au lux latrobe edu au \( matthew gillard \) writes subject boot sometimes fails lux latrobe edu au \( matthew gillard \) date wed , 28 apr 1993 05 37 00 gmt sometimes boot windows 3 1 , windows logo comes han gs , using dos 6 doublespace , 5 meg temp swap file uncompressed drive press reset button computer , windows boots fine \? \? \? dos 6 \? matthew gillard , blessed run around computer systems engineering , circles , shall la trobe university , known wheels dos 5 never used area e000 efff , well others cards use \( lan card \) , might get problem use x e000 efff emm386 exe line config sys run memmaker instruct retain inclusions
aisun1 ai uga edu \( mark msai \) subject printer security organization ai programs , university georgia , athens lines 15 nntp posting host aisun1 ai uga edu anyone know good software package allow us keep track printing \? way get print manager keep log \? print manager replacement \? package allow access system people password file \? looked chastity , let log without password , n't keep tabs got help greatly appreciated mark programs ai uga edu university georgia athens , georgia 30602
eliza \( elisabeth bull \) subject i'm using dos 6 anymore organization university trondheim , norway x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 20 mark woodruff \( cda90038 ucf1vm bitnet \) wrote morning 4 working research paper , reboot hung dos program \( disk \) within windows 3 1 machine finished rebooting , found windows directory two thirds directories irreversibly corrupted \( stuff deleted \) sounds like happened hd month ago hd stacked stacker v 2 0 \( run dos5 \) suddenly everything hung , hd got corrupted \( directories changed unreadable files names \) words probably doubledisk part dos6 troublesome use stacker v 3 0 , far trouble elisabeth bull e mail eliza unit
eua ericsson se \( thomas \) subject need longer filenames nntp posting host eua ericsson se reply eua ericsson se organization ellemtel ab lines 20 utility let use filenames longer standard 8 3 format yep , 's called os2 ! yep , use type unix , maybe vms , buy mac something want longer filenames documents , heard wordprocessor windows let assign long names files long filenames could seen programs open save dialogs though maybe someone knows wordprocessor \? rember correctly , lotus notes gives u possiblity , among things tom se
tu berlin de \( michael linder \) subject windows nt help needed io error organization lines 33 nntp posting host tu berlin de hi everybody , got third beta release disk \( march 93 \) still able boot system final step achieved display io error , since beta release sdk nt nt , microsoft include manual os , explaining error means get rid configuration 25 , rev a7 \( 486 socket \) memory \( 512k 36 , 1m 36 , 2m 36 \) ami eisa scsi controller \( \) , latest bios , 16mb cache hard disk syquest 555 removable disk toshiba cd rom drive spectrum plus 16 ethernet card \( ne2000 comp \) et4000 graphics card , 1meg \( \) system running fine dos windows 3 1 etc , trying setup nt , automatic setup recognize controller \( compat \) adding manually , nt complains cd rom drive manual setup \( \) copy everything cd hd , recognize controller , takes manually setup continues tries boot starts loading several stuff disk \( seems hd \) , messing damned io error 69 took away io cards essential , make effect anybody got ideas \? help would greatly appreciated michael linder physik tu berlin de institute optics tech univ berlin , germany
hertz njit edu \( samuel c \) subject terminal setup , \? organization new jersey institute technology , newark , n j lines 8 nntp posting host hertz njit edu new windows wanted know setup terminal program modem com4 , try configure inside windows get unsupported com anyone help \? sam
adair atldbs com \( owen adair \) subject cool bmp files \? \? distribution usa lines 35 organization software article 1993apr20 dlss2 james dlss2 \( james cummings \) writes newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path atldbs ! uupsi ! psinntp ! uunet ! gatech ! howland reston ans net ! bogus sura net ! darwin sura net ! convex ! seas smu edu ! void ! ! dlss2 ! james james dlss2 \( james cummings \) subject cool bmp files \? \? message id 1993apr20 dlss2 organization development references 1993apr17 023017 17301 gmuvax2 gmu edu distribution usa date tue , 20 apr 1993 17 35 06 gmt lines 1021 article 1993apr17 023017 17301 gmuvax2 gmu edu rwang gmuvax2 gmu edu \( john wang \) writes hi , everybody guess subject said getting boring looking old bmp files came windows , wondering body beautiful bmp file share maybe somebody tell ftp site bmp files , like scenery files , animals files , etc used , unfortunately delete anyway could give help , please \? \? \? response different kinda wallpaper , 's use think original gif whatever called real artist name logo lower right corner need vga think , sized 800x600 256 color screens use windows directory tile hope enjoy question abo owen adair adair com b software backbone ! ! atldbs ! adair \( 404 \) 239 alarming increase topics know nothing
acifuent isluga puc cl \( alejandro cifuentes \) subject mouse jumpy \? \( ms mouse \) nntp posting host isluga puc cl organization pontificia universidad catolica de chile x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 lines 28 ecktons ucs byu edu \( sean eckton \) writes microsoft serial mouse using mouse com 8 00 \( using 8 20 think , switched 8 00 see better \) vertical motion nice smooth , horizontal motion bad sometimes ca n't click something mouse jumps around moving mouse right relatively uniform motion mouse move smoothly bit , jump right , move smoothly bit jump \( maybe time left 5 inch ! \) crazy ! never much trouble mouse anyone solutions \? another hint really jumping mouse \( type \) , finally mouse stops jump changing himem sys \( yes , himem ! \) , use device himem sys x x 1 , 2 , , 8 \( course computer appear list parameter \) maybe , mouse stop jump \( problem looks like dirty mouse \) hope help \( anybody ! \) alejandro cifuentes h acifuent isluga puc cl
rick sundance sjsu edu \( richard warner \) subject dos 6 \( i'm using dos 6 anymore \) nntp posting host sundance sjsu edu organization san jose state university math cs dept lines 34 mark woodruff cda90038 ucf1vm bitnet writes 've running dos 6 month generally impressed improvements multiple boot configurations great , new commands nice , doublespace worked fine \( twice slow large data transfers , twice fast small smartdrv \) morning 4 working research paper , reboot hung dos program \( disk \) within windows 3 1 machine finished rebooting , found windows directory two thirds directories irreversibly corrupted cannot afford problems like i'm returning dos 5 mark p 've also noticed bad sector errors doublespace none exist infoworld \( april 26 , 1993 issue \) two articles problems dos 6 article calls people exercise extreme caution decide use point doublespace memmaker problem areas cause number folks problems ms 's response effect problems reported could duplicate \( probably trying hard \) reports lot folks getting going get burned 900 support lines example call cost 67 50 , 3 minutes tech support 25 minutes hold want see ms spin doctors explain
tittle netcom com \( cindy tittle moore \) subject i'm using dos 6 anymore reply tittle netcom com \( cindy tittle moore \) organization disorganized orange county , ca lines 34 eliza \( elisabeth bull \) writes mark woodruff \( cda90038 ucf1vm bitnet \) wrote morning 4 working research paper , reboot hung dos program \( disk \) within windows 3 1 machine finished rebooting , found windows directory two thirds directories irreversibly corrupted \( stuff deleted \) sounds like happened hd month ago hd stacked stacker v 2 0 \( run dos5 \) suddenly everything hung , hd got corrupted \( directories changed unreadable files names \) words probably doubledisk part dos6 troublesome use stacker v 3 0 , far trouble pretty much confirms original impression reading documentation dos 6 double space sounds nice , primary disk ! ! 'll probably wind making disk partition , using archive probably would useful floppy disks well c \? uh , uh particularly disliked note said something like double space irreversible cindy cindy tittle moore internet tittle ics uci edu bitnet uci bitnet uucp ! ucbvax ! ! tittle usnail po box , irvine ca ,
ingres com \( david victor \) subject windows enhanced mode get 386 icon functionality \? organization ingres corporation , subsidiary ask group , inc distribution na lines 15 recently set windows 3 1 486dx 33 vlb system , n't notice last night n't 386 icon control panel n't remember windows setup asking 386 enhanced mode \( whether wanted \) 've got program bought \( aldus freehand 3 1 \) telling running windows enhanced mode \( looks like i'm running standard mode \) switch enhanced mode without little icon \? issues involved vesa lb systems cause windows want give enhanced mode \? thanks help ! ! david victor
louray seas gwu edu \( michael panayiotakis \) subject help changing startup logo organization george washington university lines 69 article f 454 fidonet org c doelle p26 f3333 n106 z1 fidonet org \( c doelle \) writes hello brad ! monday april 26 1993 17 24 , brad smalling wrote \( crosspost 1 \) bs since n't know setup \) bs copy b win cnf vgalogo lgo vgalogo rle win com bs \( grabbed supercharging windows judd robbins great book \) bs also put logo windows startup brad , procedure used compress bmp file \? would rle file love use bmp files created logo screen thanks chris origin chris doelle f3333 n106 z1 fidonet org \( 1 106 3333 26 \) thought 'd reply , though ai n't brad case , lot picture file viewers convert , say , gif , etc , bmp convert rle know fact paintshop \( shareware cica desktop , think , filename zip \( think , vvv ver number 's true , let know post \) , however , write rle file bmp extension , rename , another thing windows' faq file less 64 k \( least 's faq says , mine wont work 30 maybe mend 32k , n't know \) file fit vga size \( 480 860 , whatever standard vga size \) use non vga screen \( e g cga , ega , svga , also way , thing instead vgalogo lgo use another file , lgo , lgo , something i'm sure , vga , i'm sure could find faq \( windows help ver available cica , n't filename \) also bmp 16 colours less specs rule good bmp 's found cartoon drawings work quite well advantage looking good little memory finally , remember save current win com , put new win com windows directory also , n't start windows directory another win com present , used instead one windows dir , win wo n't start share fairly , n't take slice pie \( pf \) mickey pe michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace ! uunet ! seas gwu edu ! louray make ms windows grp file reflect hd directory \? \? well ai n't always right , 've never wrong \( gd \)
louray seas gwu edu \( michael panayiotakis \) subject windows zip unzip organization george washington university lines 42 article 1rl9b6 h3c sol deakin oz au russ deakin oz au \( russ sharp \) writes using pkzip v2 04 interested hear people used one many windows programs call ones available one stand amongst rest \? well , got winzip cica \( n't know version , think 's latest , long ago \) , initially 's low winzip great , long unzip lets files , unzip selected files , even puts files checkout directory , creates checkout grp group want check program even prompts deletion exit , like program however \( big however \) problems n't specifics , consistency , sometimes zip files , add file zip , dos violate something , 'll asked \( kind , micro oft kind way \) quit applications , quit windows , restart computer n't know \( said \) consistent , zip much \( , go dos use , use run cmd \) know 's happened added files existing zip file , created new zip file , using selected files n't know 's happened zip entire dir still , rather nice interface , quite useful unzip ing functions fixed , 'll first register new ver \( , good old , run unzip zip work \( ps new ver fixes , please let know \) peace , mickey pe michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace ! uunet ! seas gwu edu ! louray make ms windows grp file reflect hd directory \? \? well ai n't always right , 've never wrong \( gd \)
louray seas gwu edu \( michael panayiotakis \) subject boot sometimes fails organization george washington university lines 27 article 11 0 csir co za csir co za \( dominique \) writes dos 5 never used area e000 efff , well others cards use \( lan card \) , might get problem use x e000 efff emm386 exe line config sys run memmaker instruct retain inclusions speaking comp e000 efff something nature system ini file system file windows wondering line windows startup file better , give memory dos apps , disable run windows \? \( actually , think line also system 1 file \) peace , mickey pe michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace ! uunet ! seas gwu edu ! louray make ms windows grp file reflect hd directory \? \? well ai n't always right , 've never wrong \( gd \)
ces cwru edu \( steven \) subject mouse odometer \? organization computer engineering science , case western reserve university lines 15 distribution usa nntp posting host storm eeap cwru edu hello know mouse odometer windows \? seen one mac quite fun records distance , miles , travels use thanks advance steve steven conservative young , po cwru edu heart liberal old , brain
slc a2 cim cdc com \( steve chesney \) subject internationalization applications byte characters keywords i18n reply slc cdc com organization metaphase technology , inc lines 11 researching support various platforms applications use multi byte characters \( e g , japanese kanji \) know unix x windows contain support i18n standard \( depending level platform \) support i18n wide characters exists mac , windows 3 1 windows nt \? steve chesney slc catherine cim cdc com metaphase technology inc 612 482 \( voice \) north lexington avenue 612 482 4001 \( fax \) arden hills , mn
gt2617c prism gatech edu \( brad smalling \) subject help changing startup logo organization georgia institute technology lines 23 article f 454 fidonet org \( c doelle \) writes brad , procedure used compress bmp file \? would love use bmp files created logo screen thanks chris origin chris doelle f3333 n106 z1 fidonet org \( 1 106 3333 26 \) n't know specifics compression algorithm , 've used shareware program , paintshop , convert two download ftp cica indiana edu , n't know file called directory \( start looking pub pc win3 try scanning index files \) convert bmp file rle file , load bmp file save select windows bitmap compressed \( rle \? \) whatever , 's fairly intuitive sorry n't details , i'm currently dumb terminal ca n't much researching good luck ! brad smalling jr ee ga tech atlanta , ga gt2617c prism gatech edu
efi com \( daniel chung \) subject bitmap bmp format mean \? organization electronics imaging , inc lines 12 el ie \( lando \? \) bitmap oj , kaj iu el fi \( \) , en software development kit , la ne la por \( \) \( ie asked bitmaps , fi responded , saying book int software development kit possibly , development kit \) \( ro \)
efi com \( daniel chung \) subject bitmap bmp format mean \? reply root organization electronics imaging , inc lines 6 , mi kaj mol \? \( confused soft hard , software \)
cpt umd umich edu \( paul \) subject win lock 16 mil dia help ! keywords stelth organization university michigan lines 19 nntp posting host cw u04 umd umich edu please help whenever try run windows 16 million color mode drivers diamond stelth 24x lock full system reset break drivers windows v 1 00 windows 3 1 \( version windows \) setup 4 megs ram 14 svga touch monitor non interlaced ami bios help would , card seems work fine modes , usually run windows 800x600 mode probs , driver card problem paul cpt umd umich edu
dmittleman bpavms bpa arizona edu \( daniel mittleman \) subject leaking memory resources 3 1 organization university arizona mis department lines 46 nntp posting host bpavms bpa arizona edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 may faq \( , please direct known answer \) getting frustrated looking help running win 3 1 ndw 2 2 486sx 8 meg memory 6 meg perm swap file getting exceedingly frustrated applications giving back system resources close load windows start 83 resources available many application programs run regularly \( 5 2 , vb 2 0 , winqvt 2 8 , lotus organizer , etc \) seem return resources exit day two work often find 50 available resources even applications shell running aware known problem looking suggestions might mitigate 1 software culprit \? win 3 1 , ndw , applications \? modes win 3 1 \( standard , real , enhanced \) better others plugging leak \? 2 system ini switches set help plug leak \? 3 people know patches third party software help \? seems like increasing better managing system resources great market third party memory company like qemm 4 run progman instead ndw leak \? \( hoping ndw 2 2 would plugged , seems different 2 0 deals memory resources \) 5 writing vb code things make less likely code eat resources \? 6 suggestions n't know enough ask specifically \? thanks help common problem seen little discussion net probably others would like read answers please publish rather sending email danny daniel david mittleman danny arizona edu \( 602 \) 621
cbnewsj cb att com \( r rashid \) subject help finding best development kit organization keywords borland , ms c , , please reply lines 23 i'm new ms windows world , fairly competent sparc nextstep programmer , idea development kit purchase heard good things borland c application frameworks microsoft 's visual c sdk \( \? \) would like peoples comments package set tools find useful productive plethora kits gui toolkits available i'm wondering best terms reliability , plug go type operation , 'd interested comments anything else may find useful summarize net enough interest thanks , cbnewsj att com
acadvm1 uottawa ca \( william f \) subject changing system font x received usenet pa dec com id wed , 28 apr 93 11 09 54 0700 x received inet gw 1 pa dec com id wed , 28 apr 93 11 09 51 0700 x received acadvm1 uottawa ca acadvm1 uottawa ca \( ibm vm smtp \) id 5088 wed , 28 apr 93 14 09 20 edt x received uottawa \( \) acadvm1 uottawa ca \( mailer r2 07 \) id wed , 28 apr 93 14 09 19 edt x comp os ms windows misc usenet lines 12 hello windows 3 1 wondering necessary change default system font something else obtained msc c 7 0 sdk , 'd really like get feet wet first windows pro gram change system font tx , william f acadvm1 uottawa ca \( mercedes benz convertible \) csi uottawa ca \( \)
gel cs mcgill ca \( gilles khouzam \) subject ati ultra pro windows organization socs mcgill university , montreal , canada lines 15 ok , got new 486 66 16 mb , ati ultra pro ca n't get windows says need memory available , extended mem 512k disabled memory aperture n't find free memory , still gave message memory aperture conflict system memory think 's want get windows help greatly appriciated please reply mail , site week late news thanks gel
alfred carleton ca \( jim hardy \) subject get ati card video drivers fonts \? keywords ati , windows organization carleton university distribution usa lines 15 hah access digex net farley access digex com \( charles u farley \) writes anyone know ftp somehow else acquire latest video drivers fonts ati svga adapter \? floppy windows 3 0 anyone know ati still business \? thanks ! farley access digex com charles u farley average iq calgary board ed employee 65 get ati bbs 416 number manuals tech support number tell bbs number
violet ccit arizona edu \( zhang , \) subject pcx w4w \? distribution world , local organization university arizona lines 15 nntp posting host violet ccit arizona edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 hi , folks , question generate pcx file using word windows \( 2 0 \) \? know select postscript printer driver get ps file , generate pcx file \? printer capture utility windows ever exists \? utility transfer ps format pcx format , tiff format \? please reply e mail , give summary thanks zhang ccit arizona edu
menchett unr edu \( peter j menchetti \) subject microsoft printing system \( something like \) organization university nevada , reno department computer science lines 3 saw ad basically advanced print manager lets monitor printing closely comes bunch true type fonts anyone \? good \? bad \? worth \?
kaz iastate edu \( shroud \) subject trouble sound blaster pro drivers summary trouble sound blaster pro keywords organization iowa state university , ames ia lines 12 recently , windows starting giving error sound blaster pro requires newer version windows 3 1 worked correctly long time , n't know problem could thanks ! jeff kaz \( kaz iastate edu \) future long past forgotten , 're road madness ! geoff tate \( queensryche \)
ohstpy mps ohio state edu subject local windows vs shared windows \( discussion \) organization ohio state university , department physics lines 110 would like see serious discussion best way install windows novell administrator 's point view got phone ms access support told \( microsoft \) decided implement , standard software support , local setup \( described \) advantageous installation true microsoft prudent installation comply 'd like hear administrators first local windows installation windows fully installed workstation hard drive \( assuming resources available \) network administrator 's implementation , would install windows disks network drive using setup install windows per machine bases running setup network install complete system local drives way , drivers available setup procedure w need change disks advantages reduce traffic running windows locally reduces network traffic due local access main windows files network independence network fails \( one point another \) , local installation would allow users keep producing reduce cost time faster windows theoretically , windows run faster local hard drive network may hard point prove network optical backbone network drives significantly faster access local ones user traveling machine machine need worry varying setups \( monochrome , color , types mouse , etc \) since windows installation assigned workstation disadvantages cost installing windows locally requires significant amount disk space workstations must purchased hard disk increase cost workstation 10 30 percent administration local windows installations difficult administer new drivers peripherals constantly made available , would individually installed workstation security users access erase corrupt system files simple ignorance could result quite headache administrators may constantly repair damaged installations backup know problems backing local hard disks backup sets \( done via centralized tape system \) get large quickly backup individually \( floppy \) may happen may eliminated assumed local hard disks contain applications user data shared windows installation windows fully installed network disk via setup procedure described users \( administrators \) install minimal set files individual user directories directories may local hard disk perhaps network home directory bulk windows system files maintained network single directory \( 400 files \) accessed \( shared \) needed users throughout windows session user 's files consist small set files user updated windows session include group files , ini files regularly updated files advantages single location files makes updates drives easy updated driver becomes available , needs installed single directory users able take advantage assuming users' files maintained network \( home \) directories , administrator easily edit ini file needed correct problems may arise includes win ini system ini backup pertinent files done easily even users' files local hard disk , bulk windows system backed driver updates disadvantages network traffic since windows files shared network directory , traffic network become problem effect speed windows network crashes , production comes stop since window 's reliant upon network files loss data usually occurs well since users working windows time crash usually able save work although minimal , disk space still consideration users' files maintained network , large number users cause significant utilization disk space due personal windows files alone users cannot easily move machine machine unless workstation hardware similar due windows installation tied particular username \( case network user files \) discussion would like know , administrators large windows , prefer setting windows personally , setup numerous installations using shared setup windows application files network little utilization local hard disks fact , sold network fact company would longer need purchase hard disks workstations thus save much money would also like see recommendations applications apps word excel installed locally regardless windows installed \? , keep files network easy backup administration putting eggs one basket network crashes , work comes halt sure microsoft \( know \) ideas insights would great value hope hear people actual working experience users network administration
ccastco prism gatech edu \( costas malamas \) subject help changing startup logo organization georgia institute technology lines 58 article 1993apr28 seas gwu edu louray seas gwu edu \( michael panayiotakis \) writes article f 454 fidonet org c doelle p26 f3333 n106 z1 fidonet org \( c doelle \) writes hello brad ! monday april 26 1993 17 24 , brad smalling wrote \( crosspost 1 \) bs copy b win cnf vgalogo lgo vgalogo rle win com bs \( grabbed supercharging windows judd robbins great book \) bs also put logo windows startup might , much trouble \) brad , bmp convert rle know fact paintshop \( shareware cica desktop , think , filename zip \( think , vvv ver number 's true , let know , however , write rle file bmp extension , rename file less 64 k \( least 's faq says , mine wont work 30 maybe mend 32k , n't know \) agreed file fit vga size \( 480 860 , whatever standard vga size \) use non vga screen \( e g cga , ega , svga , also way , thing instead vgalogo lgo use another file , entirely true also bmp 16 colours less true finally , remember save current win com , put new win com windows directory also , n't start windows mickey path least resistance \( tm \) \) get wingif 1 4 cica \( ftp cica indiana edu pub pc win3 \( desktop \? \) \) save native rle format unlike \( otherwise fine , fine prog \) make file using anything less 30k , michael said , less 16 colors import wingif gif , pcx bmp save windows system vgalogo rle \( lgo \) exit win , run setup windows current config run win \( minor correction rle file 30k means 15k gif \? \) hope helps \( please , please someone put group 's faq \) costas malamas georgia institute technology oit ua oit n't pay enough share opinions internet ccastco prism gatech edu
ccastco prism gatech edu \( costas malamas \) subject windows zip unzip organization georgia institute technology lines 23 article 1rl9b6 h3c sol deakin oz au russ deakin oz au \( russ sharp \) writes using pkzip v2 04 interested hear people used one many windows programs call full windows version call dos pkzip pkunzip commands \? russ sharp russ deakin edu au ph \( 052 \) 27 1141 fax \( 052 \) 27 2015 winzip 4 0 \( ftp cica indiana edu pub pc win3 \( util \? \) \) shell \( call dos \) , , good one also arc , arj fully supports pkzip 2 04 try using might shell , also means dont need update every every letter alphabet version pkzip \) hope helps costas malamas georgia institute technology oit ua oit n't pay enough share opinions internet ccastco prism gatech edu
organization university illinois chicago , academic computer center uicvm uic edu subject tcp ip windows 3 1 lines 52 n't know much computers , please bear 's question context use package called slip home computer connect university mainframe \( ibm 3090 running vms mvs \) , log account installed slip computer , configure modem \( 14 4 kbs internal \) supply phone number dial reach mainframe way works type telnet uicvm tn3270 uicvm \( either work \) dos prompt uicvm node name mainframe program mainframe , establishes protocol , gives screen telnet tn3270 names batch files slip directory told kermit protocol used session problem would like able windows 3 1 hardly ever use dos directly slip run windows talked people computer center , suggested use packet driver called winpkt com slip gave instructions load start windows , modify batch files \( slip directory \) ensure would work could run slip windows , problems one thing , slip would hang phone exited run program hang phone reboot computer n't work another , many errors often took 3 4 tries connect mainframe computer center support slip windows , ca n't keep going back questions question shareware package run windows slip supposed \? need package expensive , looking shareware heard regular commercial packages , cost hundreds dollars main requirements 1 must able run windows 3 1 2 must allow vt100 ibm tn3270 terminal emulation 3 must allow ftp file transfers , since 's kind mainframe allows modem z modem etc believe ftp transfers made kermit protocol , i'm hazy subsidiary feature \( would nice \) 's true windows program \( rather dos program modified run windows \) ability run session window concurrently applications cut paste telnet session applications information received appreciated uicvm uic edu
uiuc edu uiuc edu \( albert l \) subject font summary font keywords font organization housing division lines 3 hi ! need font win tt thanks !
pwb aerg canberra edu au \( paul blackman \) subject windows zip unzip organization university canberra lines 31 article 1rl9b6 h3c sol deakin oz au russ deakin oz au \( russ sharp \) writes using pkzip v2 04 interested hear people used one many windows programs call ones available one stand amongst rest \? full windows version call dos pkzip pkunzip commands \? yes russ , windows version n't think handles functions available dos version last looked could found monash university \( australia \) mirror site cica , 'd assume 's still cica mirrors look util \( \? \) directory file called zip paul blackman pwb science canberra edu au water research centre , pwb aerg canberra edu au faculty applied science \( \) university canberra , australia spend little love get high lenny
corp sun com \( finch \) subject windows 3 1 imf boards \? organization sun microsystems computer corp lines 29 distribution world reply corp sun com nntp posting host corp sun com keywords windows , sound , imf , midi interested know know procedure document configure ibm feature \( imf \) card work sound device ms windows 3 1 believe imf uses fm synth chip blaster , n't know driver use configure midi mapper help , past success , suggestions \? thanks , donald finch technical support engr n american solution centers voice \( 415 \) 336 microsystems fax \( 415 \) 960 email finch corp sun com 04
wcl risc sps mot com \( wayne long \) subject observation floppy copy works pgm mgr , dos shell organization motorola \( austin , tx \) lines 51 nntp posting host sps mot com anyone observed \? copy large , say 800k file \( large pkzip file instance \) floppy drive \( 3 5 \) ms windows 3 1 via either program manager dos shell , file copied dos shell errors whereas file copied within program manager corruption detected executing pkunzip b file zip copies file copied via dos shell always shows corruption 's kicker many windows open dos windows apps supposedly windows' apps share time slice , whereas dos apps get equal time slice \( unless \) , example , 5 windows' apps open , 2 multitasking dos sessions running , one execution dos shell iconized \( inactive \) scenario , cpu time divided two major slices one windows apps one slice running dos app copying windows pgm mgr , 'll assume windows dos tasks essentially inactive thus pgm mgr gets , say , 80 windows slice 95 execution background dos shell 's slices thus gets \( 8 \) \( 95 \) 2 72 72 total available cpu time copying dos shell , activate execute exclusive mode dos shell \( dos background tasks allowed \) , full screen , windows task manager cpu time available shell would 80 windows slice \( inactive windows applications \) 100 dos slice \( 1 0 \) \( 8 \) 8 80 total available cpu time get copy errors dos greater amount cpu time \? program manager working pre mode floppy copy \? must ! miscellaneous data running windows top dos 5 0 , qemm 5 x , sys , 2 0 mbyte smartdrive \( delayed writes \) , two , logitech mouse driver 6 2 , full motherboard ram , motherboard cache , 386 dx 33 mhz running dos edit com tsr dos shell wayne long internet wcl risc sps mot com 6501 william cannon drive west uucp cs texas edu ! oakhill ! risc ! wcl austin , texas 78735 8598 phone \( 512 \) 891 fax 891 3818
cc swarthmore edu \( evan \) subject please help ! ! \( wierd problem \) nntp posting host swarthmore edu organization swarthmore college lines 27 somebody help cure poor computer go insane ! problem 486 running windows appears memory related 's actually limited windows , 's causes problems ths machine 's 486dx33 , ram , , trident tvga card , pas 16 1 \) windows runs really , really slow time slower old graphics draws fills slow , boots slow , applications sluggish , dialog boxes take 15 seconds appear \( note non windows applications funny things appear related several run slow , mod player crashes system etc \) 2 \) running borland c 3 0 running windows \( programs \) completely fixes problem windows run fast 've ever seen run , easily 10 times faster graphics n't run bc beforehand 3 \) n't memory manager installed config sys installing emm386 exe fix problem makes worse emm386 installed , running bc fix problem anymore problem driving nuts think help , please reply mail thanks , evan
kjell hut fi \( kjell \) subject 4 pr drivers needed organization helsinki university technology lines 17 distribution comp reply kjell hut fi nntp posting host cs hut fi hello ! could anybody kind tell date possible ftp location recent win 3 1 printer drivers canon bj 10e canon 4 would really appreciate could help thanks advance ! kjell hut fi kjell hut fi kjell vipunen hut fi
gmills chemical watstar uwaterloo ca \( phil trodwell \) subject windows zip unzip organization university waterloo lines 25 article 1rl9b6 h3c sol deakin oz au russ deakin oz au \( russ sharp \) writes using pkzip v2 04 interested hear people used one many windows programs call ones available one stand amongst rest \? full windows version call dos pkzip pkunzip commands \? mean prog n't jump dos display back create temp dos window \? yes might recommend winzip ftp cica indiana edu i'm afraid n't file name version able find 's fully compatible ver 2 functional later , phil trodwell space 'd happy ram goddam 440 volt cattle rent prod tub right , \( cheap \) radio ! hunter thompson
hayesj rintintin colorado edu \( hayes james michael jr \) subject program manager kills group files ! organization university colorado , boulder lines 33 nntp posting host rintintin colorado edu article qtr access digex net access digex com \( barry smith \) writes clue \? times enter win 3 1 progman says need rebuild group ! 's quite annoying ! 've problem maxtor turned smartdrive , 32 bit disk access , etc disk norton speed disk \( nu 4 5 \) , 8 times , requesting ndd run attempting defrag drive peoples' suggestion reformatted drive reloaded dos 5 0 , win 3 1 scratch people found installing 3 1 top 3 1 beta top 3 0 caused similar problem , tried drastic solution problem , n't brains load 6 0 drive get arround annoyance copying grp files gro get message , run file manager copy group files gro ove grp quit restart windows \( group often used important one \) really sucks i'm pretty sure problem drive \( especially problem \) going 66 memory finals 2 4 weeks , guy bought disk system , goes either fixes replaces drive ca n't wait system run consistently hte goodies ! mike hayes knowledge good faber college motto www knowledge thoroughness poly motto unemployed tech , , thank ! groucho marx , 'a day races' driven banging head engineering physics 4 years
mccall mksol dseg ti com \( fred j mccall 575 3539 \) subject windows nt und x windows \? organization texas instruments inc lines 15 1993apr26 908 eurom rhein main de hein eurom rhein main de \( hein \) writes sure whether right area , anybody know whether windows nt include x windows server run x window applications remotely \? , insisting perfect safety people n't balls live real world mary shafer , nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com n't speak others n't speak
mccall mksol dseg ti com \( fred j mccall 575 3539 \) subject leaking memory resources 3 1 organization texas instruments inc lines 65 bpavms bpa arizona edu dmittleman bpavms bpa arizona edu \( daniel mittleman \) writes may faq \( , please direct known answer \) getting frustrated looking help running win 3 1 ndw 2 2 486sx 8 meg memory 6 meg perm swap file getting exceedingly frustrated applications giving back system resources close aware known problem looking suggestions might mitigate 1 software culprit \? win 3 1 , ndw , applications \? modes win 3 1 \( standard , real , enhanced \) better others plugging leak \? 's applications unfortunately , even ship win31 seem problem \( 've seen , example \) 2 system ini switches set help plug leak \? none know application n't give back resources , lost gone forever , pending restart windows 3 people know patches third party software help \? seems like increasing better managing system resources great market third party memory company like qemm applications n't free memory \( lot n't \) , 's bugger piece software 4 run progman instead ndw leak \? \( hoping ndw 2 2 would plugged , seems different 2 0 deals memory resources \) problem applications , usually 5 writing vb code things make less likely code eat resources \? books written one general , sure free everything ask exit unfortunately , understand vb internally lose resources , 's way avoid entirely 6 suggestions n't know enough ask specifically \? thanks help common problem seen little discussion net probably others would like read answers please publish rather sending email 's little discussion 's ms manages come os garbage collection something resource pool insisting perfect safety people n't balls live real world mary shafer , nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com n't speak others n't speak
yang titan ucs umass edu \( yang \) subject help allocate memory disk copying file manager organization university massachusetts , amherst lines 8 distribution usa nntp posting host titan ucs umass edu use file manager 's disk copy , find windows \( 3 1 \) read whole 1 2mb disk one time , 98 1 44 disk looks like problem memory however , pc 4mb ram way extended memory disk copy please advise matter thanks advance
mongwa acsu buffalo edu \( kan mongwa \) subject windows nt und x windows \? nntp posting host autarch acsu buffalo edu organization ub lines 23 article 1993apr29 mksol dseg ti com mccall mksol dseg ti com \( fred j mccall 575 3539 \) writes 1993apr26 908 eurom rhein main de hein eurom rhein main de \( hein \) writes sure whether right area , anybody know whether windows nt include x windows server run x window applications remotely \? , could add information 'non say instance source information thanks kan mongwa mongwa acsu buffalo edu suny buffalo bitnet ubvms humpty dumpty electrical engineering ubvm
waterloo hp com \( ted \) subject canon bj200 \( bubblejet \) hp deskjet 500 nntp posting host waterloo hp com organization hp div waterloo canada x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 9 lines 26 thomas fellrath 1 nd edu nd edu wrote size another factor bj 200 much smaller , hp built like tank bet bj 200 would get damaged first bet 's built like tank mechanically either ! past weekend nasty impossible \( \) happened got direct lightning strike house second floor outlet box faithful deskjet 500c connected 303 bullet sized hole aluminum siding aluminum dripping could actually see electrical box hole ! outlet fried i'm still amazed whole damn house n't burn lost 2 electric garage door , 2 vcr 's , 2 telephones \( opposite side house \) , zyxel u high speed modem , vga monitor , 1024x768 color monitor , rs232 parallel ports x terminal wd lan card pc good night ! , deskjet ran soon found functioning serial parallel port connect ted \( slightly \) hp division waterloo , ontario
mach1 wlu ca \( david brown \) subject ii driver x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 organization wilfrid laurier university lines 8 i'm trying get hold ibm ii printer driver windows 3 1 beast exists , someone suggest get \? please mail reply directly n't normally read group many thanks david brown mach1 wlu ca
les tom com \( les tom \) subject replacement program distribution world organization idc bbs alameda , ca 510 865 reply les tom com \( les tom \) lines 33 maw ying yuan wrote yuan wiliki eng hawaii edu \( maw ying yuan \) subject replacement program manager file manager \? message id news hawaii edu date thu , 29 apr 1993 06 44 04 gmt replacements win3 1 's program manager file manager \? yuan wiliki eng hawaii edu \) hi , 've using 's plug program manager listed add gives needed features progman ability better manage groups , change cursor icons fly , constant status ram resources , quick menu \( drop menu dos commands app launcher \) , plus neat stuff used , liked , even reg 'd g ca n't find anywhere , let know 'll zip mail \( shareware version , course g \) aloha es hope abandon , ye enter messages slmr 2 1a idc bbs 510 865 \( usr hst 14 4k \) 510 814 \( usr ds v 32bis \) alameda , california home ,
penev rockefeller edu \( penio penev \) subject actix video card drivers windows reply penev venezia rockefeller edu organization rockefeller university x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 x posted venezia rockefeller edu nntp posting host sol ctr columbia edu lines 26 27 apr 93 23 56 50 gmt \( adelaide edu au \) wrote 1993apr24 jarvis csri toronto edu wongda eecg toronto edu \( daniel h wong \) writes looking latest drivers actix graphics accelerator card driver currently using version 1 21 n't support 256 colors 1024x768 mode even 2mb memory bbs support actix unbelievable ! still using 2400bps modem ! take hours download drivers , hurts calling long distance ftp site collection video drivers windows \? good drivers \? \? daniel h wong uoft \( 416 \) 978 1659 anybody actix listening \? upload dang drivers ftp site \? ! somebody get local call contact ftp site possible , keep disk email request uuencoded provided , somebody sends , \( live ny \) penio penev x7423 \( 212 \) 327 7423 \( w \) internet penev venezia rockefeller edu disclaimer oppinions mine
ajayshah almaak usc edu \( ajay shah \) subject \( info \) dos msw meltdown progressing nicely organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 59 nntp posting host almaak usc edu preferred applications development platform according 432 fortune 1000 corporations survey market research survey \( percentages \) 1992 1993 unix 18 28 mainframe 35 22 dos msw 24 18 os 2 8 17 14 14 , may 1993 , page 28 's interesting see greatest vapour project world able make much difference \) think 's interesting rag , incredibly incompetent article opinion piece someone named robert statements like sun sold around 300 multiprocessing servers ! ! ! ! ! ! \( case usc around 4 sun mp servers earth \) \) factor 50 \? 100 \? thought sending factual disaster email message column titled contact us silly seem never heard internet may also interest world computer market share broad category \( \) 1991 1996 dos , windows , netware 37 0 40 0 unix 11 6 21 0 ibm mainframe 17 4 14 4 vax vms 3 7 2 6 ibm minis 4 1 4 0 macintosh 3 6 4 6 22 6 13 4 totally 155 billion 1996 projections idc source unix world , jan 1993 1993 unix hardware sales category billion installed base workstations 14 1 3 million 7 4 1 million large scale 1 8 pc unix 0 6 2 million total 23 9 ajay shah , \( 213 \) 749 , ajayshah usc edu
reply spiff win net \( ed klein \) spiff win net \( ed klein \) subject please post bitmaps ! lines 41 pwiseman salmon usd edu \( cliff \) organization university south dakota subject roman bmp 01 response requests cool bitmaps posting one date 04 27 03 50 pm due resolution size 14 parts uuencoded bitmap 256 colors picture desert blue sky background size right centered wallpaper 1024x768 display leaves border bottom big enough icons fit without top picture reguarding image quality resolution seen much better please ! n't know rest read news , 's subscribe system allows dial via modem download e mail news articles automatically someone posts huge attached binary file , choice receive along new articles groups subscribe also pay connect time , normally problem 14 4k modem day 's upload download session takes 5 minutes today 's session , however , lasted 25 minutes roman bmp consequently , cost 3 00 extra receive file n't want first place cool bitmaps want make available , ways either upload file ftp site \( like ftp cica indiana edu , complete windows section \) tell people get , use one newsgroups like alt binaries pictures \( something like \) , file archives rather discussion groups n't use discussion groups like one send attached files , especially 're 600k size thanks ed klein spiff win net
dan anderson subject ms mouse driver 8 2 reply dca roadnet ups com organization roadnet technologies , inc lines 20 article 1993apr27 princeton edu phoenix princeton edu ! carlosn \( carlos g niederstrasser \) writes anyone documentation ms mouse driver 8 2 \? got got windows 3 1 , windows manual come documentation particular need know turn , speed outside windows greater sensitivity needed play various games , esp x wing \) sensitivity changed using , v , h parameter commands following v vertical sensitivity h horizontal sensitivity follow parameter number 1 100 \( 1 slowest , 100 fastest \) default 50 type command mouse right keyboard add autoexec bat hope helps
bjorn sintef \( bjorn \) subject i'm using dos 6 anymore organization sintef lines 38 article 1993apr28 ugle unit eliza \( elisabeth bull \) writes eliza \( elisabeth bull \) subject i'm using dos 6 anymore date wed , 28 apr 93 14 17 43 gmt mark woodruff \( cda90038 ucf1vm bitnet \) wrote morning 4 working research paper , reboot hung dos program \( disk \) within windows 3 1 machine finished rebooting , found windows directory two thirds directories irreversibly corrupted \( stuff deleted \) sounds like happened hd month ago hd stacked stacker v 2 0 \( run dos5 \) suddenly everything hung , hd got corrupted \( directories changed unreadable files names \) words probably doubledisk part dos6 troublesome use stacker v 3 0 , far trouble need anything disk compression \? experienced thing couple times , without disk compression stuff installed \( example , guess happened norton crashed ! \) bjorn bjorn bjorn sintef sintef safety reliability n trondheim , norway sintef foundation scientific industrial research norwegian institute technology
little carina hks com \( jim littlefield \) subject printer driver wanted organization , karlsson sorensen , inc lines 8 nntp posting host carina hks com x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 i'm looking printer driver apple imagewriter ii \( printer actually jim littlefield two things infinite universe little hks com human stupidity , sure former albert einstein
charlea eng clemson edu \( charles allen \) subject question eisa video board performance organization clemson university lines 44 article world std com , cfw world std com \( christopher f wroten \) eisa machine understand eisa video cards match performance isa counterparts instance , eisa orchid pro designer iis e fast isa diamond speedstar plus , n't would call fast n't understand eisa video cards n't , group , level performance local bus cards , given eisa video cards 32 bit bus move data around , instead isa 's 8 bits good question answer eisa bus move 32 bits rather isa 's 8 \( 16 \? \) still moves speed isa bus think 's either 8 10 mhz local bus designs also move 32 bits like eisa , move data cpu speed , 40 mhz , 33mhz cpu , local bus moving 32bit data 33 mhz , eisa moving 32bit data 8 10 mhz local bus 3 4 times faster eisa 33 mhz cpu eisa two \( maybe 3 \) times fast isa since , would anyone \( included \) pay higher cost eisa video card performance better often worse much cheaper isa video board , diamond speedstar 24x \? pc magazine 's \( think \) recent report , know ati makes pretty fast eisa video card , 's around 500 , double wallet allow spend , 500 , could get diamond viper still 100 left \( course , 'd get local bus mother board \) 's good question eisa bus advantages isa bus 's width example better interrupts bus mastering factors impact video card much impact file servers multiple hard drives , full throttle network cards , cd roms , etc anyone shed light confusion frustration \? thanks ! christopher wroten , cfw world std com
organization penn state university christopher psuvm psu edu subject windows nt und x windows \? 1993apr29 mksol dseg ti com acsu buffalo edu lines 19 article acsu buffalo edu , mongwa acsu buffalo edu \( kan mongwa \) says anybody know whether windows nt include x windows server could add information 'no say instance source information source comment cd rom manuals march beta x windows server \? course \( even \) microsoft supplies one nt , vendors doubt port 's nt according recent newsletter hummingbird communications ltd , announced nt 93 announcement reads like , order price info would guess must rsn dev kit
charlea eng clemson edu \( charles allen \) subject i'm using dos 6 anymore organization clemson university lines 10 regarding horror stories dos6 doubledisk stacker 2 \? killing hard drives wondering dos 6 mirror command works doubled drive info well normal fat table partition table records vital doubledisk info , using daily go long way toward protecting type catastrophic failure discussed n't , shame microsoft
yon world std com \( david yon \) subject 386 enh mode w floppy \? organization world public access unix , brookline , distribution usa lines 15 hi , 've got older 386 25 motherboard \( old , uses 1988 keyboard controller , uses memory rather caching \) developed problem trying copy files floppy cause machine lock \( reset button required \) , 386 enhanced mode occurs norton desktop , file manager , trying install software running win 3 1 standard mode works fine anyone run \? ideas \? much thanks appreciated david yon world std com
teal csn org \( \) subject leaking memory resources 3 1 nntp posting host teal csn org organization colorado supernet , inc x newsreader tin 1 1 pl4 lines 13 dmittleman bpavms bpa arizona edu \( daniel mittleman \) writes may faq \( , please direct known answer \) getting frustrated looking help running win 3 1 ndw 2 2 486sx 8 meg memory 6 meg perm swap file getting exceedingly frustrated applications giving back system resources close 've noticed also way explained windows clear upper memory blocks program done anyone know \?
cu826 cleveland freenet edu \( mahbub \) subject dos6 novell netware organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 11 reply cu826 cleveland freenet edu \( mahbub \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu friend mine installed dos6 work hooked novell network , running netware 386 v 3 11 problem 's doublespace program using drive 'h' swap drive , networks mapped drives switch place swap drive drive \? please e mail thanks bunch ! ! mahbub cu826 cleveland freenet edu
ebosco us oracle com \( eric bosco \) subject put swap file \( ide scsi \) nntp posting host monica us oracle com reply ebosco us oracle com organization oracle corp , redwood shores ca x disclaimer message written unauthenticated user oracle corporation opinions expressed user necessarily oracle lines 24 486 sx 25 recently added scsi drive system using adaptec \( non busmastering \) controller yesterday ran coretest find drive performance values got seagate 106 meg 875 sec 14 avg seek 3 track track quantum 400 meg scsi 991 2 kb sec 12 7 avg seek 3 6 track track first good results \? n't know typical values i'm wondering following swap file currently ide could move scsi 13 faster , would able use 32 bit access might make slower drive put swap file get best results \? swap file speed test program \? finally , also ran tests driver loaded got difference whatsoever performance reason load driver \? thanks advance , post summary get enough responses eric
ebosco us oracle com \( eric bosco \) subject emm386 windows nntp posting host monica us oracle com reply ebosco us oracle com organization oracle corp , redwood shores ca x disclaimer message written unauthenticated user oracle corporation opinions expressed user necessarily oracle lines 14 pc almost exclusively run windows dos based application config sys emm386 loaded option noems \( expanded memory \) following thread one comp newsgroups , read necessary emm386 loaded indeed , manual , says emm386 used get expanded memory extended memory since noems option , seems emm386 device useless case use emm386 remove config sys \? thanks help , eric
zmola bert eecs uic edu \( carl zmola \) subject \( info \) dos msw meltdown progressing nicely organization university illinois chicago lines 42 ajayshah almaak usc edu \( ajay shah \) writes preferred applications development platform according 432 fortune 1000 corporations survey market research survey \( percentages \) 1992 1993 unix 18 28 mainframe 35 22 dos msw 24 18 os 2 8 17 14 14 99 99 , may 1993 , page 28 's interesting see greatest vapour project world able make much difference \) world computer market share broad category \( \) 1991 1996 dos , windows , netware 37 0 40 0 unix 11 6 21 0 ibm mainframe 17 4 14 4 vax vms 3 7 2 6 ibm minis 4 1 4 0 macintosh 3 6 4 6 22 6 13 4 1996 projections idc source unix world , jan 1993 sombody 's data wrong since mac os , finder , whatever want call n't appear first survey , tend doubt results sombody wrote n't mean correct carl zmola cicero spc uchicago edu
science smith edu subject put swap file \( ide scsi \) keywords organization smith college distribution na lines 23 article 1993apr28 963 oracle us oracle com ebosco us oracle com writes 486 sx 25 recently added scsi drive system using adaptec \( non busmastering \) controller yesterday ran coretest find drive performance values got seagate 106 meg 875 sec 14 avg seek 3 track track quantum 400 meg scsi 991 2 kb sec 12 7 avg seek 3 6 track track first good results \? n't know typical values pretty typical , believe i'm wondering following swap file currently ide could move scsi 13 faster , would able use 32 bit access might make slower drive put swap file get best results \? swap file speed test program \? keep swap file ide 32 bit access worth fair amount 13
albany edu subject desktop fonts changing \? organization university albany , albany ny x newsreader nnr vm 1 3 2 lines 17 one users unusual problem alt tab full screen dos program , goes back windows desktop fonts changed goes back full screen dos program goes back windows , font changed back default font 's major problem \( everything works font \) , annoying anyone idea happens way , dec machine jeffrey cohen voice 518 442 office research \( ad 218 \) fax 518 442 university albany e mail albany edu state university new york 1400 washington ave albany , ny
wcl risc sps mot com \( wayne long \) subject replacement program manager file manager \? organization motorola \( austin , tx \) lines 17 nntp posting host sps mot com yuan wiliki eng hawaii edu \( maw ying yuan \) writes hi , could someone please suggest one better shareware replacements win3 1 's program manager file manager \? ftp site located \? thanks advance e mail response please post response well think many would interested one thank wayne long internet wcl risc sps mot com 6501 william cannon drive west uucp cs texas edu ! oakhill ! risc ! wcl austin , texas 78735 8598 phone \( 512 \) 891 fax 891 3818
ee ceres kingston ac uk \( steve warner \) subject windows nt upgrade \? \? \? organization kingston university , kingston upon lines 14 distribution world nntp posting host ceres kingston ac uk hi thinking upgrading beta version windows nt 486sx 25mhz hard disc someone please give setup running nt operating system likely better windows unix 's steve ee uk ac king ceres
mlin nosubdomain nodomain \( ming lin \) subject video board keywords ati , windows reply mlin ichips intel com distribution usa organization workgroup computing division , pdx , intel lines 12 hi , plan upgrading monitor video card 1280x1024 dx2 66 isa \( local bus \) system would appreciate anyone drop email experience high resolution video board monitor thanks ming lin mlin ichips intel com \( 503 \) 696
gmichael vmd cso uiuc edu \( gary r michael \) subject vesa driver ibm xga organization office information management , university illinois lines 13 anyone tell find standard vesa display driver support motherboard xga video 486 dx2 ibm model 95 \( \) \? need use 640 x 480 higher resolutions windows 3 1 ms dos minimum colors 256 highest resolution , 64k colors needed 640 x 480 gary r michael phone \( 217 \) 244 associate director fax \( 217 \) 244 office information management e mail gmichael vmd cso uiuc edu university illinois \( 128 174 5 98 \) 18 david hall gary michael cerl west gregory drive urbana , il 61801
srv pacbell com \( ken \) subject fast display adaptors windows organization pacific bell lines 14 friend ati graphic ultra display adaptors , reasonably good performers , irritating compatibility problems ati drivers ready change something faster compatible windows heard new orchid 9000 card fast anyone experience card \? currently available fast , compatible , non interlaced cost 500 \? ken ken pacific bell srv pacbell com san , california
ardie ux1 cso uiuc edu \( ardie mack \) subject emm386 windows organization department plant pathology lines 17 pc almost exclusively run windows dos based application config sys emm386 loaded option noems \( expanded memory \) following thread one comp newsgroups , read necessary emm386 loaded indeed , manual , says emm386 used get expanded memory extended memory since noems option , seems emm386 device useless case use emm386 remove config sys \? thanks help , eric emm386 noems enables system use upper memory 640 1024 's good place device drivers , dos kernal , etc \( keep ! \)
kdb sunbar mc duke edu mc duke edu \( kurt bollacker \) subject challenge microsoft supporters lines 14 nntp posting host mc duke edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 microsoft largest software company planet , yet cannot think even one computing concept innovated brought market anyone else xerox parc apple , osborne , next , gnu others pioneers led way future computing microsoft done technological leader \? posted question , got nary reply make challenge anyone come something especially microsoft employees get response time , guess pretty much assures none suspect anyway kurt bollacker duke university medical center kdb sunbar mc duke edu durham , nc 27710
dil admin mhs unc edu \( dave laudicina \) subject challenge microsoft supporters nntp posting host dil adp unc edu organization unc office information technology lines 15 microsoft largest software company planet , yet cannot think even one computing concept innovated brought market anyone else xerox parc apple , osborne , next , gnu others pioneers led way future computing microsoft done technological leader \? posted question , got nary reply make challenge anyone come something especially microsoft employees get response time , guess pretty much assures none suspect anyway really come cares hope ms keeps best getting usable productive software masses thx dave l
apland mala bc ca \( ron apland \) subject dos6 novell netware organization malaspina college lines 21 article usenet ins cwru edu , cu826 cleveland freenet edu \( mahbub \) writes friend mine installed dos6 work hooked novell network , running netware 386 v 3 11 problem 's doublespace program using drive 'h' swap drive , networks mapped drives switch place swap drive drive \? please e mail thanks bunch ! ! mahbub cu826 cleveland freenet edu determine last dblspace drive required set lastdrive config sys using might want go couple drives higher give shared drive space reboot novell set first drive one lastdrive config sys might remap novell drives originally mapped lower drives make sure bat file whatever using log onto novell set correct drive \( one lastdrive setting config sys file \)
weber ucsd edu \( anthony v dean \) subject organization university california san diego lines 8 distribution usa nntp posting host weber ucsd edu hi 'd like substitute exciting win3 1 opening logo company logo boot time matter replacing logo file logo \? format company logo \? thanks
messina netcom com \( tony \) subject \( info \) dos msw meltdown progressing nicely organization messina software lines 18 ajayshah almaak usc edu \( ajay shah \) writes preferred applications development platform according 432 fortune 1000 corporations survey market research survey 1992 1993 unix 18 28 mainframe 35 22 dos msw 24 18 development \? house apps \? maybe , certainly apps sold open market statistics like laughable , may simply mean enough shrink wrapped usable apps unix developed disproportionately often compared installed unix base
dev ecn purdue edu \( larry weeks \) subject challenge microsoft supporters organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 35 dil admin mhs unc edu \( dave laudicina \) wrote microsoft largest software company planet , yet cannot think even one computing concept innovated brought market anyone else xerox parc apple , osborne , next , gnu others pioneers led way future computing microsoft done technological leader \? posted question , got nary reply make challenge anyone come something especially microsoft employees get response time , guess pretty much assures none suspect anyway really come cares hope ms keeps best getting usable productive software masses personally , 'll blasphemous say microsoft keeps well , hope see much stricter copyright patent laws computer algorithms , concepts , interfaces , intellectual properties protect real 'd hate one actually , microsoft come like huge use brute mass \( development staff , marketing , etc \) get fat innovation n't much sympathy apple 's complaint microsoft , since took ideas xerox 's pa research center federal government forced xerox disclose patents antitrust fears however , companies individuals great idea , yet get borrowed larger corporations afford quickly bring market , without licensing original , feel much sympathy larry larry weeks fight monsters make sure dev ecn purdue edu process become monster , look long abyss abyss also looks friedrich
med unc edu \( peter st wecker , \) subject western digital driver originator nntp posting host med unc edu organization unc school medicine lines 20 know 've seen question asked , n't remember seeing answers one know ftp site driver might reside \? 've checked cica , i'm sure 's \( i'm refering new version driver came 2 \( \? \) 93 \) seen c serve , hesitate l 1 meg 2400 bps unless really ! , possible get paradise \( wd \) mail new drivers , n't finally , even worth hassle getting things , much improvement 10 92 version \? thanks info , peter peter st wecker , internet med unc edu \( 919 \) 966 1096 uucp uucp dept physiology , univ north carolina , chapel hill nc
toelle uenics evansville edu \( chad toelle \) subject change icon program windows organization university evansville distribution usa lines 10 suppose want change particular icon program windows ms dos one would someone let know \? thanks million chad toelle toelle evansville edu st philip rd mt vernon , uunet ! evansville edu ! toelle \( 812 \) 985
cosmos netcom com \( cosmos \) subject \? required file format word ms window file \( doc \) organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) distribution usa lines 5 hi ! trying develop utility view word window file need know format doc \( word window file format \) files anybody tell format doc file direct get format \? help greatly appriciated thanks ,
gandalf ca \( paul wilson gandalf toronto sales \) subject wanted tt font creator package free keywords true type fonts organization gandalf data ltd distribution na uk lines 11 i'm looking way get company logo onto documents figure easiest way put font public domain programs \? shareware \? help appreciated paul paul wilson 416 698 gandalf ca
dhhalden \( thomas \) subject challenge microsoft supporters lines 43 nntp posting host organization ostfold college article news duke edu kdb sunbar mc duke edu mc duke edu \( kurt bollacker \) writes kdb sunbar mc duke edu mc duke edu \( kurt bollacker \) subject challenge microsoft supporters date 30 apr 93 14 58 54 gmt microsoft largest software company planet , yet cannot think even one computing concept innovated brought market anyone else xerox parc apple , osborne , next , gnu others pioneers led way future computing microsoft done technological leader \? posted question , got nary reply make challenge anyone come something especially microsoft employees get response time , guess pretty much assures none suspect anyway kurt bollacker duke university medical center kdb sunbar mc duke edu durham , nc 27710 invented make money others ideas made money n't air wrong time admit damn smart guy many make money almost useless products useless even look time dos written already could choose one marketing guy world , think would choose 's good almost everyone hates , still use stuff ' i'm perfect , i'm perfect '
kaul vnet ibm com subject vesa driver ibm xga news software ibm os 2 pm rn \( nr 2 \) v0 17h vishnepolsky r rogers lines 16 reply kaul vnet ibm com disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host kaul bocaraton ibm com organization ibm boca raton visual subsystems gmichael 28 vmd cso uiuc edu gmichael vmd cso uiuc edu \( gary r michael \) writes anyone tell find standard vesa display driver support motherboard xga video 486 dx2 ibm model 95 \( \) \? need use 640 x 480 higher resolutions windows 3 1 ms dos minimum colors 256 highest resolution , 64k colors needed 640 x 480 ibm xga svga vesa driver 2 02 reference diskette , available ibm bbs 's also compu erve , bang sales rep get later version dick kaul opinions , official ibm positions , etc ibm xga development 'd make wear suit speak ibm boca raton , fl use unnecessary violence kaul vnet ibm com blues brothers approved
greg ncr com subject windows line review uploaded reply greg ftcollinsco ncr com organization ncr microelectronics , ft collins , co lines 12 uploaded windows line review shareware edition ftp cica indiana edu pub pc win3 uploads zip line magazine contains reviews shareware products grabbed windows line bbs greg \( 303 \) 223 5100 ncr products division 464 2001 court greg ftcollinsco ncr com fort collins , co 80525
acsu buffalo edu \( christophe johnson \) subject redirect print manager file \? nntp posting host lictor acsu buffalo edu organization ub lines 21 hpcc01 corp hp com reed hpcc01 corp hp com \( perry reed \) writes hpcc01 comp os ms windows misc u7911093 cc nctu edu tw \( swh \) 9 58 apr 24 , 1993 hello , tell find pd shareware capture windows 3 1 's output printer \? planning using regular basis , printer file become bothersome windows asks filename want create 've found putting line system ini ports section path filename works problem send one job , second one deletes first chris acsu buffalo edu christopher johnson pgp public key encryption masses disclaimer n't say ! pgp encrypted mail welcome ! pgp public key pgp public keys toxicwaste mit edu orwell may well correct year wrong
kocks chemistry stanford edu \( peter kocks \) subject telnet terminal windows \? \? \? keywords tcp ip telnet ftp organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa lines 10 i'm looking good terminal program connect tcp ip using windows basic ms window connect unix host would great suggestions \? thanks peter kocks kocks chemistry stanford edu
kenton shaver andrew cmu edu subject challenge microsoft supporters organization sponsored account , systems group 82 , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 47 28y noose ecn purdue edu nntp posting host andrew cmu edu reply 28y noose ecn purdue edu ms innovated anything \? really come cares hope ms keeps best getting usable productive software masses lets see ms products n't major bugs \? oh , fifth release bugs generally cleared , even customers must buy new releases little bug fixes anyone buys 2500 computer system runs ms windows desperate need sympathy oh wait ! ms innovated plastic housing ms mouse n't \? logitech inside personally , 'll blasphemous say microsoft keeps well , hope see much stricter copyright patent laws computer algorithms , concepts , interfaces , intellectual properties protect real 'd hate one actually , microsoft come like huge use brute mass \( development staff , marketing , etc \) get fat innovation n't much sympathy apple 's complaint microsoft , since took ideas xerox 's pa research center federal government forced xerox disclose patents antitrust fears however , companies individuals great idea , yet get borrowed larger corporations afford quickly bring market , without licensing original , feel much sympathy larry larry weeks fight monsters make sure dev ecn purdue edu process become monster , look long abyss abyss also looks friedrich ca n't even really call secondary creativity company gathers together bunch knock packages ms anything , appears someone first appears ms finding throwing money technological problems means guaranteed solution kenton cmu edu os 2 fixes broken windows
reimert etdesg trw com \( scott p reimert \) subject windows nt upgrade \? \? \? organization trw inc , redondo beach , ca lines 51 article ceres kingston ac uk ee ceres kingston ac uk \( steve warner \) writes hi thinking upgrading beta version windows nt 486sx 25mhz hard disc someone please give setup running nt operating system likely better windows unix 's steve ee uk ac king ceres 've using windows nt \( tm \) since october release , say march release really big improvement windows nt \( tm \) becomming usable things consider make leap though first \( least \) cannot get full speed dos box mean , cannot \( instance \) run falcon 3 0 intensive program dos box machine 486 33 hd 16mb ram anyone knows get fast dos box \( full screen matter \) , please let know second thing still many drivers around stuff instance , pas 16 demoted running sound blaster \( supported nice \) , n't produced drivers yet disk large enough keep 80mb dos partition , give rest windows nt \( tm \) thing , whenever wanted run windows programs , 'd reboot log windows nt \( tm \) , instead typing win windows nt \( tm \) seem much stable normal windows though 'd good choice resources really least 8mb ram though one last thing , modems work well enough , yet get fax card work , 've never heard anyone else either 's better unix runs killer software box , whereas unix n't guess comes windows nt \( tm \) yet faint heart , 's still beta 's good beta scott reimert reimert etdesg trw com standard disclaimer redondo beach , ca blah blah blah always store beer cool dark place
mccall mksol dseg ti com \( fred j mccall 575 3539 \) subject windows nt und x windows \? organization texas instruments inc lines 30 acsu buffalo edu mongwa acsu buffalo edu \( kan mongwa \) writes article 1993apr29 mksol dseg ti com mccall mksol dseg ti com \( fred j mccall 575 3539 \) writes 1993apr26 908 eurom rhein main de hein eurom rhein main de \( hein \) writes sure whether right area , anybody know whether windows nt include x windows server run x window applications remotely \? , could add information 'non say instance source information copy n't microsoft says release version , either asked told thanks 're welcome insisting perfect safety people n't balls live real world mary shafer , nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com n't speak others n't speak
ashok biochemistry cwru edu \( ashok aiyar \) subject telnet terminal windows \? \? \? organization cwru school medicine lines 26 nntp posting host axa12 slip dialin cwru edu keywords tcp ip telnet ftp article 1993apr30 leland stanford edu kocks chemistry stanford edu \( peter kocks \) writes i'm looking good terminal program connect tcp ip using windows basic ms window connect unix host would great suggestions \? take look winqvt net latest version qvt net 3 4 comes versions direct packet driver , well pc nfs version priced quite low registration 40 , student registration 20 , nice package comes complete vt220 terminal emulation , ftp , client , lpr , nntp client ftp biochemistry cwru edu pub qvtnet zip also uploaded ftp cica indiana edu recently ashok ashok aiyar mail ashok biochemistry cwru edu department biochemistry tel \( 216 \) 368 3300 cwru school medicine , cleveland , ohio fax \( 216 \) 368 4544
ere umontreal ca \( denis \) subject windows zip unzip organization universite de montreal lines 22 pwb aerg canberra edu au \( paul blackman \) writes article 1rl9b6 h3c sol deakin oz au russ deakin oz au \( russ sharp \) writes using pkzip v2 04 interested hear people used one many windows programs call ones available one stand amongst rest \? full windows version call dos pkzip pkunzip commands \? yes russ , windows version n't think handles functions available dos version problem slow think winzip 4 0 still best choice use pkzip windows ! denis , montreal \( ere umontreal ca \)
rmohns vax clarku edu subject help changing startup logo organization clark university lines 34 previous article , louray seas gwu edu \( michael panayiotakis \) wrote article f 454 fidonet org c doelle p26 f3333 n106 z1 fidonet org \( c doelle \) writes hello brad ! monday april 26 1993 17 24 , brad smalling wrote \( crosspost 1 \) bs since n't know setup \) bs copy b win cnf vgalogo lgo vgalogo rle win com bs \( grabbed supercharging windows judd robbins great book \) bs also put logo windows startup , another thing windows' faq file less 64 k \( least 's faq says , mine wont work 30 maybe mend 32k , n't know \) com files limited total size 64kb thus , win plus vgalogo log plus rle file must less 64kb thus , rle file around rob resemblance views rob faculty advisor , terminal , mohns view window purely dental richard may may rmohns vax support said views , probably n't clarku edu want think
wang com \( dave \) subject cool bmp files \? \? organization wang labs , lowell , usa distribution usa lines 2603 adair atldbs com \( owen adair \) writes article 1993apr20 dlss2 james dlss2 \( james cummings \) writes newsgroups comp os ms windows misc path atldbs ! uupsi ! psinntp ! uunet ! gatech ! howland reston ans net ! bogus sura net ! darwin sura net ! convex ! seas smu edu ! void ! ! dlss2 ! james james dlss2 \( james cummings \) subject cool bmp files \? \? message id 1993apr20 dlss2 organization development references 1993apr17 023017 17301 gmuvax2 gmu edu distribution usa date tue , 20 apr 1993 17 35 06 gmt lines 1021 article 1993apr17 023017 17301 gmuvax2 gmu edu rwang gmuvax2 gmu edu \( john wang \) writes hi , everybody guess subject said getting boring looking old bmp files came windows , wondering body beautiful bmp file share maybe somebody tell ftp site bmp files , like scenery files , animals files , etc used , unfortunately delete anyway could give help , please \? \? \? response different kinda wallpaper , 's use think original gif whatever called real artist name logo lower right corner need vga think , sized 800x600 256 color screens use windows directory tile hope enjoy try one size 'd rather post name , email , 'll tell enjoy ! begin 640 zip m4 l ! ! 0 \( , ! v \? ! 8 p \( 35 l \? h w yq 5p ! 5 bh \( x cp \( i8 kh , , 3 le p e xn \) \( \( \( 9z f g v g b5 hw e oi \? \? 5 m3 e , 8 4 v 7 \( r 3 \( q , x 6 r \? yay x r p nq \? \? l , ey vc f \( x 9 r \) py \? m3 ! 3 9k ti , f \? z mb n7 8 g 5 4 \? g n ' \? f , c k3 ! , im ov , l uo ! 6 \? k n z 5 ' 6 q \? 8 5 \( qq \? u n6 dt , m3 b \? k ' 7 \) nt n \? l 3 9 q3 00 9 nx uk o9 7 , u \? 8' 2v , ! r \) w uw 0 ! 7 z , ps gw , 3 \? k n \? v c2 p \? w c , po p u q \? 7x n , \? , v f b 8 v ! l q 3 w k 9n l' w qz ' l' ym \? cx qo \? gs e mz 2 \? yv \? x g \? \? qd ay wp ws p7 \? p 3 \? ! \? 0 sb r tq ' ' ! \? \? \? 7 f wj p \? n c g \) 9e \? t8 oe 8 xy , 0 wq , , 9 , \? \? v w2 ku j 2x m6 e \) 1l q f 1s 4 ! \? ! 2r , q uo kou , m3 7s 9 r \? jq ! n b , 0w l dj y6 x ! j k \( 7w gn jj q , \( ' \? c x \? u dc ! r , q7 cs c z m5 \) esp \) 0m \) lm , 6 3 av cv 3z , 9 \) x ! 4s \) z r ! ! v p 'q \? \? 7 , 8k , \( bl \) hi \) ! z r lx md0 yr rp og \) e l v w wm j 2x 7w wu p g nz \) ! n n ! 2 dtk bro eg ! 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' \) \) \( x 'w \? \) l mn ! mau 7 ! w \? w 7 \( \( tq ! ig \( 9 mq , su 4 7 8p 4k 9 p 2 ! q \? k \? v pr p g , h f f \) b \? xpr me' 3t 1a 07 \( 4p r \? p5 q \( g d3 p k5 , \( n \? \) ep \( u 'a , \? 7 , 9 tj ! ! \( b 4u k w 8 \( , 1 \? aq \( \) d9 \( 2 , 2 \) \( z \? u 3 \? nn x \) qq n b p 5 s6 ! b ! u , 43 o1 \? 3 ! r5 i0 \? , 5 mgl yg \( xj ! x0 , \( \( c3 v 1r w \? lk 9 c m9u , 1 ! ku , bo \( f \( cu 5 n e h b \) ! 4 3c 2' \) \) ' ms z4 \? 8 syl b 0 , l om \? 3 n xp \) k \) \( o1 \( 4n \) ng j gd m2 ! u b \( l , \( mn p j l \) 2 9 , zy ! \) mu 3 exp 0b ! c ! b 81 c 94 w ea 4 f 786 j1 2b 2d 3 \? 57 6 \) q \? yh ud 0 \? \) n 4 9u x4 p \( \? v6 l , e g v 9 k' \? h ! kr , h qp 5 ! r l 4 9 37 3 1 n \( \? c k \) z \? q \? \) kx c , g j' 6 u hq , f \( \) xd 7n ah ew 0 n b , v \? ! u z3 cv \? 6 , \( c v ! n dl , \) h , v \) b gd ru r f \( 0a , 7 w u \? f w , 5 ck' 6h i8 8 q g3 c e ! st1 13 \( p x ! ! d8 j \( ! i7 x \? \( 0 m1 8 \( v 34 , \) \? p e \? ds 5 \? u1 \? x vj 3 u \? 3o qw w \) 8 \) \) 8s w em 2 sv' ih 7 wb ! , 5p 3 bb \( v 7 p yw u ! 0 \( 4 ! 0 \( , ! v \? ! 8 p \( f \( ! \) 4 ! ! 08 0 ! 8 p0 end dave , wang laboratories , inc amateur radio callsign project leader , recognition products n0ary ca na internet wang com
mccall mksol dseg ti com \( fred j mccall 575 3539 \) subject \( info \) dos msw meltdown progressing nicely organization texas instruments inc lines 19 1993apr30 bert eecs uic edu zmola bert eecs uic edu \( carl zmola \) writes sombody 's data wrong since mac os , finder , whatever want call n't appear first survey , tend doubt results sombody wrote n't mean correct note two tables n't talk population one fortune 1000 companies favoring platform primary application platform , sales \( everyone , fortune 1000 \) fortune 1000 companies n't lot development mac top platform would expect would explain discrepancy insisting perfect safety people n't balls live real world mary shafer , nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com n't speak others n't speak
mccall mksol dseg ti com \( fred j mccall 575 3539 \) subject question eisa video board performance organization texas instruments inc lines 42 1993apr30 828 hubcap clemson edu charlea eng clemson edu \( charles allen \) writes article world std com , cfw world std com \( christopher f wroten \) eisa machine understand eisa video cards match performance isa counterparts instance , eisa orchid pro designer iis e fast isa diamond speedstar plus , n't would call fast n't understand eisa video cards n't , group , level performance local bus cards , given eisa video cards 32 bit bus move data around , instead isa 's 8 bits good question answer eisa bus move 32 bits rather isa 's 8 \( 16 \? \) still moves speed isa bus think 's either 8 10 mhz local bus designs also move 32 bits like eisa , move data cpu speed , 40 mhz , 33mhz cpu , local bus moving 32bit data 33 mhz , eisa moving 32bit data 8 10 mhz local bus 3 4 times faster eisa 33 mhz cpu eisa two \( maybe 3 \) times fast isa would expect eisa board twice fast isa board moving data path twice wide \( least \) , difference number clocks required bus transactions two busses isa boards require multiple clocks per bus transaction typically around 3 4 eisa boards suppose able 1 1 rate , would expect performance 6x 8x isa card guess , , question unanswered still would expect able see 6x speed difference , apparently insisting perfect safety people n't balls live real world mary shafer , nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com n't speak others n't speak
ebosco us oracle com \( eric bosco \) subject emm386 windows nntp posting host monica us oracle com reply ebosco us oracle com organization oracle corp , redwood shores ca x disclaimer message written unauthenticated user oracle corporation opinions expressed user necessarily oracle lines 40 article ardie 313 ux1 cso uiuc edu ardie ux1 cso uiuc edu \( ardie mack \) writes pc almost exclusively run windows dos based application config sys emm386 loaded option noems \( expanded memory \) following thread one comp newsgroups , read necessary emm386 loaded indeed , manual , says emm386 used get expanded memory extended memory since noems option , seems emm386 device useless case use emm386 remove config sys \? thanks help , eric emm386 noems enables system use upper memory 640 1024 's good place device drivers , dos kernal , etc \( keep ! \) well , thought sys would took emm386 config sys , i'm still loading drivers high \( mouse , vga shadow bios , dos key etc \) n't checked mem c , believe managed load high \( ie 640kb \) also , ever since took emm386 , windows loads slightly faster , get 3 extra meg windows \( i'm running 386 enhanced 4 meg ram , 7 meg swap \) got rid ctrl alt del reboot problem \( , computer would reboot using ctrl alt del exiting windows \) would really like keep emm386 config sys anybody else info \? \? \? eric
kosmos wcc govt nz subject desktop fonts changing \? organization wellington city council \( public access \) , , nz lines 30 reply kosmos wcc govt nz nntp posting host kosmos wcc govt nz article albany edu , albany edu writes one users unusual problem alt tab full screen dos program , goes back windows desktop fonts changed goes back full screen dos program goes back windows , font changed back default font 's major problem \( everything works font \) , annoying anyone idea happens way , dec machine 's consolation , similar problem recall , exited dos session full screen mode , menu titles changed scrambled version icon title font \( something like \) started happening used win ini change desktop font stopped exiting dos sessions full screen mode mac used something similar n't computers weird \? mark cri nz oceanographic \( \) 310 evans bay rd , point telephone \( 64 4 \) 386 1189 po box 14 901 , fax \( 64 4 \) 386 wellington , new zealand
rdippold qualcomm com \( ron asbestos dippold \) subject challenge microsoft supporters originator rdippold qualcom qualcomm com nntp posting host qualcom qualcomm com organization qualcomm , inc , san diego , ca lines 13 kenton shaver andrew cmu edu writes lets see ms products n't major bugs \? oh , fifth release bugs generally cleared , even generally , second third major release usually takes care advice , based plenty personal experience , never buy first version anything microsoft includes major version number upgrades previous releases , microsoft c 6 00 always wait least upgrade upgrade 're going buy san francisco like take away fruits nuts , left flakes
bferrell ant occ uc edu \( brett ferrell \) subject challenge microsoft supporters nntp posting host ant occ uc edu organization university cincinnati lines 28 article 1993apr30 samba oit unc edu dil admin mhs unc edu \( dave laudicina \) writes microsoft largest software company planet , yet cannot think even one computing concept innovated brought market anyone else xerox parc apple , osborne , next , gnu others pioneers led way future computing microsoft done technological leader \? posted question , got nary reply make challenge anyone come something especially microsoft employees get response time , guess pretty much assures none suspect anyway really come cares hope ms keeps best getting usable productive software masses thx dave l think windows useable , must use much windows version crash protection wearing helmet computing arir \( air \) bag expensive add brett brett sherron ferrell email bferrell uceng uc edu u cincy catch cats college engineering friends n't let friends windows th week think 's wrong believe ism , believe
louray seas gwu edu \( michael panayiotakis \) subject please post bitmaps ! organization george washington university lines 13 though downloaded posted bitmaps , original poster quite right alternative , try posting comp binaries ms windows , letting us know good idea post article number peace , pe michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace ! uunet ! seas gwu edu ! louray make ms windows grp file reflect hd directory \? \? well ai n't always right , 've never wrong \( gd \)
louray seas gwu edu \( michael panayiotakis \) subject leaking memory resources 3 1 organization george washington university lines 28 article h7v csn org teal csn org \( \) writes dmittleman bpavms bpa arizona edu \( daniel mittleman \) writes running win 3 1 ndw 2 2 486sx 8 meg memory 6 meg perm swap file getting exceedingly frustrated applications giving back system resources close 've noticed also way explained windows clear upper memory blocks program done anyone know \? post something similar back seems windows take upon free sys resources using application done job left entirely application , application clean quits anyone know utility windows clean sys resources application quits \( mother zip \? \? \? \) peace , mickey pe michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace ! uunet ! seas gwu edu ! louray make ms windows grp file reflect hd directory \? \? well ai n't always right , 've never wrong \( gd \)
oddjob oz plymouth edu \( andrew c \) subject help changing startup logo organization plymouth state college plymouth , nh lines 17 long running discussion changing startup logo windows weeks copy methods great n't seen mention program well found one cica called \( ca n't remember unfortuantely \) , seems work real well even comes couple example rle files 'd really like though way create rle files , specifically format mentioned readme file anyone point direction beast real directory path \? \? ones 've seen mentioned n't pan e mail un x oddjob oz plymouth edu vms psc plymouth edu disclaimer end user software provides avenue user week modification user friendly
math mun ca \( michael \) subject print file print file later \? organization mathematics department , memorial university newfoundland lines 30 's situation home , ms word windows printer work , windows postscript printer , ms word , configure machine home use postscript printer , use print file option , produces nice postscript file , bring work question print postscript file print manager work \? , example , select print file manager , treats postscript text file , gives several pages postscript gibberish know open dos window copy file ps com1 work , seems well applications run rather slowly often pause 10 's seconds ought way passing postscript file print manager , , ca n't find mention documentation anyone know \? michael memorial university newfoundland math mun ca
jagrant emr1 emr ca \( john grant \) subject challenge microsoft supporters organization dept energy , mines , resources , ottawa lines 31 article uceng uc edu bferrell ant occ uc edu \( brett ferrell \) writes article 1993apr30 samba oit unc edu dil admin mhs unc edu \( dave laudicina \) writes microsoft largest software company planet , yet cannot think even one computing concept innovated brought market anyone else xerox parc apple , osborne , next , gnu others pioneers led way future computing microsoft done technological leader \? posted question , got nary reply make challenge anyone come something especially microsoft employees get response time , guess pretty much assures none suspect anyway really come cares hope ms keeps best getting usable productive software masses thx dave l think windows useable , must use much windows version crash protection wearing helmet computing arir \( air \) bag expensive add brett ladies gentlemen please keep discussion comp os ms windows advocacy belongs thank john grant jagrant emr1 emr ca airborne geophysics geological survey canada , ottawa john grant jagrant emr1 emr ca airborne geophysics geological survey canada , ottawa
charlea eng clemson edu \( charles allen \) subject emm386 windows organization clemson university lines 18 article ardie 313 ux1 cso uiuc edu , ardie ux1 cso uiuc edu \( ardie mack \) pc almost exclusively run windows dos based application config sys emm386 loaded option noems \( expanded memory \) following thread one comp newsgroups , read necessary emm386 loaded indeed , emm386 noems enables system use upper memory 640 1024 's good place device drivers , dos kernal , etc \( keep ! \) emm386 load dos kernal high \( else could n't 286 \) mail message recommended remove since runs frequently dos , suspect emm386 slow windows charles clemson edu
iastate edu \( doug v tran \) subject leaking memory resources 3 1 organization iowa state university , ames ia lines 39 's interesting table showing much resources application uses much gives back shut take windows user may 1993 issue application min resource use resource returned gdi user gdi user gold v3 03 10 6 2 14 word windows v2 0b 10 0 5 0 lotus 123 v1 1 13 3 3 2 arts v3 12 7 7 3 1 v3 0 9 1 3 0 corel draw v3 0 10 6 3 0 micro designer v3 1 10 2 2 0 crosstalk v2 0 0 0 0 0 excel v4 0a 11 8 0 0 v1 0 2 2 0 0 image color pro 3 2 0 0 picture publisher v3 1 21 8 0 0 ! executive ed v1 03 0 5 0 0 adobe type manager v2 5 1 0 na na v2 0 1 0 0 0 numbers percentage decreasing order table tells , frequently start exit program n't give back 's resources , continually lose therefore , open programs leave open btw maybe people add list know application watch later , doug
cui maccs mcmaster ca \( jun cui \) subject respond wm \? keywords ms windows , sdk nntp posting host maccs dcss mcmaster ca organization department computer science , mcmaster university distribution comp windows ms lines 23 i'm using bc 's objectwindows \( 3 1 \) , trying left button double click message wm combo box codes look like class public public \( , int , word \) \( , , \) virtual void \( msg \) wm first wm void \( msg \) responding message \( selecting item list box \) anything wrong program \? help would appreciated jun talk lord ps 2 ms windows
mongwa acsu buffalo edu \( kan mongwa \) subject change icon program windows nntp posting host lictor acsu buffalo edu organization ub distribution usa lines 33 article 1993apr30 uenics evansville edu toelle uenics evansville edu \( chad toelle \) writes suppose want change particular icon program windows ms dos one would someone let know \? depends wether going replace icon comes standard windows , icon icon manager well , one comes windows , highlight item clicking , click see box says click going presented icons \( sometimes one \) n't like presented , click box , look file select browse icons presented , double click desired icon want replace icon icon manager , say instance , open icon manager bottom screen , block application icon wish replace found desired icon , click , holding mouse button , pull icon one wish change thats ! regards kan mongwa mongwa acsu buffalo edu state univeristy bitnet ubvms humpty dumpty new york buffalo ubvm
wynapse indirect com \( dave campbell wynapse \) subject leaking memory resources 3 1 organization internet direct inc \( 602 \) 274 0100 lines 35 dmittleman bpavms bpa arizona edu \( daniel mittleman \) writes may faq \( , please direct known answer \) getting frustrated looking help running win 3 1 ndw 2 2 486sx 8 meg memory 6 meg perm swap file getting exceedingly frustrated applications giving back system resources close many lines deleted danny daniel david mittleman danny arizona edu \( 602 \) 621 danny working shareware , found resources , wise person pointed sdk , specifically debug kernel sdk stuff installed , \( also comes vc \) , run swap debug kernel runs c n e r b l slower , execute command , let report going going find lot apps cared , possibly peoples apps \( \? i'm sorry \) n't make sense , repost , e mail dave dave campbell wynapse wynapse wynapse indirect com shareware custom control source
eniac seas upenn edu \( steven hong \) subject looking organizer distribution comp organization university pennsylvania , philadelphia , pa , usa lines 18 nntp posting host eniac seas upenn edu looking organizer program windows currently lotus organizer , bad , looking better scheduler list nice additions address phone book diary please , suggestions \? shareware public copyrighted please email eniac seas upenn edu steven hong email address eniac seas upenn edu university pennsylvania engineering class 1996
tedm tsoft net \( ted matsumura \) subject leaking memory resources 3 1 organization tsoft bbs public access unix , 1 415 969 8238 lines 34 article 1993apr30 seas gwu edu louray seas gwu edu \( michael panayiotakis \) writes article h7v csn org teal csn org \( \) writes dmittleman bpavms bpa arizona edu \( daniel mittleman \) writes running win 3 1 ndw 2 2 486sx 8 meg memory 6 meg perm swap file getting exceedingly frustrated applications giving back system resources close 've noticed also way explained windows clear upper memory blocks program done anyone know \? post something similar back seems windows take upon free sys resources using application done job left entirely application , application clean quits anyone know utility windows clean sys resources application quits \( mother zip \? \? \? \) peace , mickey could also shell hogging resources example , open apps data files cause resulting low system resources ndw 2 x shell , program manager , see 's shell apps ted
munnari oz au \( \) subject server goes deaf organization comp sci , univ melbourne , au lines 14 nntp posting host munnari oz au x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 anyone else observed behaviour , done cure \? one workstation wfw network goes deaf form communication workstations goes network interact time later goes deaf workstation set share discs etc machine 486dx 33 , 8mb ram , diamond stealth video behaves way variety 16 bit network adapters , including smc elite also behaves way use windows vga driver , rather diamond drivers
mike tancsa mdtancsa watarts uwaterloo ca subject windows ati ultra \( chip \) sizing question content type text plain charset us ascii originator mdtancsa watarts uwaterloo ca content transfer encoding 7bit organization university waterloo mime version 1 0 x mailer elm version 2 4 content length 489 lines 15 upgraded trident tvga9000 ati graphics ultra \( old chip \) quite pleased performance far , one problem using windows 800x600 , noticed tile bars scroll bars significantly larger using trident card setting ini files change make smaller \? could find faq list mike mdtancsa watarts uwaterloo ca
subject hp laser jet 4l windows ch organization university geneva , switzerland lines 4 anybody chance find new hp laser jet 4l behaves windows \? daniel
kmembry viamar uucp \( kirk membry \) subject roman bmp \( ! \) reply rutgers ! viamar ! kmembry organization private system lines 12 please n't post uuencoded bitmaps want , put alt binaries areas files large may crash users 's also waste band width also , know convert gif bmp many programs 'd really worth posting bmp files thanks kirk membry age age industry rutgers ! viamar ! kmembry alexander rodchenko
organization central michigan university cmuvm csv cmich edu subject help needed w dos apps windows lines 21 since loading windows , two dos applications acting strangely appears font changes page orientation changes \( far \) recognized wordperfect dos dos another dos application accept font page orientation changes , n't think problem printer reloaded , changes still accepted whether launching windows dos prompt anyone suggestions look correct problem \? 've ordered windows , need landscape application printed immediately please e mail thanks advance ! sue internet cmuvm csv cmich edu central michigan university bitnet cmuvm mt pleasant , mi
ludes hubcap clemson edu \( larry ludes ludwig \) subject challenge microsoft supporters organization clemson university lines 18 stuff deleted microsoft bferrell ant occ uc edu \( brett ferrell \) writes think windows useable , must use much windows version crash protection wearing helmet computing arir \( air \) bag expensive add brett must read many os 2 advertisements crash protection marketing gimick , n't funny 4 months using windows new machine 've crash , n't run mill configuration microsoft leader innovation , certainly know build better , 's wrong \? \? larry ludes ludwig 's always taken twice get clemson university compsci undergrad right never heard ludes hubcap clemson edu apple ludes clemson clemson edu steve jobs
kb jet uk \( kenneth \) subject roman bmp 01 response requests cool bitmaps posting one organization joint european torus distribution world lines 28 hello cliff many people internet \( like us \) pay every byte data passed subscribed news groups bitmaps large bitmaps cost us lot money special news groups bitmaps n't subscribe put bitmaps right place read one faq guides groups tell bitmaps thousands establishments like mine cost money limited budgets go away p flame \) p p distribution usa n't work ken kb jet uk \( 44 \) 235 fusion jet joint undertaking , abingdon energy , england 3ea \( far \) future disclaimer please note personal view construed official comment jet project
mtu edu \( still \) subject need help wordperfect 5 2 windows organization michigan technological university lines 14 i'm trying install wordperfect 5 2 windows computer i'm running 386sx25 w 2meg ram 4meg virtual mem setting windows keep getting errors try run tells n't enough memory disk space \( since free hd , i'm assuming n't enough memory \) anyone tell takes run beast \? thanks \) stealth dave mtu edu \( caught using address , internet deny responsibility use e mail self destruct 10 seconds
grebyn com \( marc \) subject \( info \) dos msw meltdown progressing nicely organization grebyn timesharing lines 32 article netcom com messina netcom com \( tony \) writes ajayshah almaak usc edu \( ajay shah \) writes preferred applications development platform according 432 fortune 1000 corporations survey market research survey 1992 1993 unix 18 28 mainframe 35 22 dos msw 24 18 development \? house apps \? maybe , certainly apps sold open market statistics like laughable , may simply mean enough shrink wrapped usable apps unix developed disproportionately often compared installed unix base actually , might surprised find everyone develops mainstream dos windows apps develops dos windows pc week recently printed rumor microsoft 's excel development group development os 2 another trade rag article recently group windows development sun sparcstations softpc test work sco unix reasonably popular development platform dos , windows , even os 2 apps dos windows simply robust stable enough development work , imho , apparently others agree marc grebyn com \( i'm \)
bferrell ant occ uc edu \( brett ferrell \) subject challenge microsoft supporters nntp posting host ant occ uc edu organization university cincinnati lines 37 article 1993may1 154707 10177 hubcap clemson edu ludes hubcap clemson edu \( larry ludes ludwig \) writes stuff deleted microsoft bferrell ant occ uc edu \( brett ferrell \) writes think windows useable , must use much windows version crash protection wearing helmet computing arir \( air \) bag expensive add brett must read many os 2 advertisements crash protection marketing gimick , n't funny 4 months using windows new machine 've crash , n't run mill configuration microsoft leader innovation , certainly know build better , 's wrong \? \? larry ludes ludwig 's always taken twice get clemson university compsci undergrad right never heard ludes hubcap clemson edu apple ludes clemson clemson edu steve jobs sound funny , admit true windows crashed time \( read pc mag , exception \) os 2 gives windows app ca n't touch \( generally \) anything n't supposed windows works , great maybe people n't see os 2 os choice windows n't crash , n't mind waiting task , able adress memory better dos , key reasons using os 2 gone probably would still use , would even fight brett brett sherron ferrell email bferrell uceng uc edu u cincy catch cats college engineering friends n't let friends windows th week think 's wrong believe ism , believe
kenton shaver andrew cmu edu subject challenge microsoft supporters organization sponsored account , systems group 82 , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 28 1993may1 154707 10177 hubcap clemson edu nntp posting host andrew cmu edu reply 1993may1 154707 10177 hubcap clemson edu ludes hubcap clemson edu \( larry ludes ludwig \) writes stuff deleted microsoft bferrell ant occ uc edu \( brett ferrell \) writes think windows useable , must use much windows version crash protection wearing helmet computing arir \( air \) bag expensive add brett must read many os 2 advertisements crash protection marketing gimick , n't funny 4 months using windows new machine 've crash , n't run mill configuration wow , use \? single word processing \? 8 files loaded right 29 mb virtual machine \( 12mb ram \) friend street gripes ca n't even format floppy background many unix people love os 2 used multi tasking systems microsoft leader innovation , certainly know build better , 's wrong \? \? bad hold gun mouse piper throw mice new trap , trying get work \) kenton cmu edu os 2 fixes broken windows
u tokyo ac jp \( ito \) subject bmp format mean \? organization department infomation science , faculty science , university tokyo , japan lines 508 reply robertsa unix2 tcd ie 's message tue , 27 apr 1993 14 48 04 gmt nntp posting host u tokyo ac jp article robertsa unix2 tcd ie robertsa unix2 tcd ie \( andrew l roberts \) writes exactly windows bitmap format look like \? mean , data stored width , height , colours , bitmap data \? could n't find anything ths user manual , reference material would give information \? thomas sunshine kodak com \( thomas kinsman \) newsgroups comp os ms windows programmer misc , alt binaries pictures utilities subject dib bmp creation guide , requested keywords dib bmp bitmaps file formats message id kodak kodak com date 23 dec 92 21 44 32 gmt sender news kodak kodak com organization electronics , rochester , ny lines 484 xref cradle comp os ms windows programmer misc guide creation dib images thomas b kinsman electronics 29 rd rochester , ny kodak com copyright march 15 , 1991 abstract format images created use ms windows 3 0 3 1 applications documented ms windows programmer 's reference guide guide intended clearify wording specifications , put forth recommendation among various alternatives please send updates corrections suggestions revisions please thank writing time keeping name document thank respect document copyright , 1991 , thomas b kinsman desired , postscript version document available information free get pay n't sue i'm wrong overview dib image file format intended device independent bitmap file format \( microsoft means device independent unclear \) four pixel resolutions supported 1 bit , 4 bit , 8 bit , 24 bit pixels images intended use dos \( ibm , little \) systems creating another architecture byte swap short long integer values convention , dib images end extension bmp march 15 , 1991 2 super set earlier bitmap image files consequently sometimes hear dib files referred bmp files since dib images files super set , three flavors dib images dos dib images recommended convention , form describe create intended applications running ms windows 3 0 dos environment os 2 dib images understanding flavor dib images used presentation manager old style bitmap images march 15 , 1991 3 differences flavors dos dib images consist 1 bitmapfileheader file header identifies file dib file header also gives total size image file , offset image data 2 bitmapinfoheader image header specifies image attributes 3 optional palette colors used image exists , may contain 2 , 16 , 256 entries entry windows rgbquad structure 4 image data os 2 dib images consist 1 bitmapfileheader file header identifies file dib file header also gives total size image file , offset image data 2 image header specifies image attributes 3 optional palette colors used image , exists may contain 2 , 16 , 256 entries entry windows structure 4 image data old style image bitmap consists 1 either bitmapinfoheader header type determined first long integer \( dword \) value 2 optional color palette palette may composed either windows rgbquad structures \( header bitmapinfoheader \) windows structures \( header \) 3 image data creating dib image files creating dos dib image file consists several straight forward steps headers need created written file header structures defined ms windows 3 0 windows h include file palette information needs stored images 24 bit images five general steps 1 filling bitmapfileheader bitmapinfoheader structures basic image information 2 image 1 bit , 4 bit , 8 bit image , creating color palette 3 calculating total file size putting information march 15 , 1991 4 field bitmapfileheader 4 calculating offset image data start file , putting field bitmapfileheader 5 writing file bitmapfileheader , bitmapinfoheader , color palette , image data \( order \) following sections describe structures terms microsoft c type defined keywords following table describes keywords familiar microsoft c type defined keywords microsoft c typedef meaning byte unsigned character word two byte unsigned integer dword four byte unsigned integer march 15 , 1991 5 bitmapfileheader structure defined windows h typedef struct word dword word word dword bitmapfileheader field two ascii characters 'b' serves identify file dib image file intel byte ordered machine \( ibm compatible \) , constant formed c quantity \( 8 'b' \) intel system field total size file purposes field equal size bitmapfileheader , plus size bitmapinfoheader , plus number entries color palette times size rgbquad , plus number bytes image data image data written uncompressed form , value calculated ahead time otherwise , field needs filled later fields always set zero field set offset start image data start file purposes , field set size bitmapfileheader , plus size bitmapinfoheader , plus number entries color palette times size rgbquad works image data written write color palette one exists march 15 , 1991 6 bitmapinfoheader structure defined windows h typedef struct dword dword dword word word dword dword dword dword dword dword bitmapinfoheader field set size bitmapinfoheader structure reading image file , value used determine image contains bitmapinfoheader field width image image pixels field height image image lines field always set 1 data written one color plane field bit depth image must either 1 , 4 , 8 , 24 , depending bit depth image data field tells image data compressed compressed dib images support two forms run length encoding however , never seen images use , n't know yet works set field zero \( long zero , 0l \) , indicate data compressed subsequent fields bitmapinfoheader structure may set zero requirement software able compute fields necessary previous information field might want explicitly specify might 4 bit 8 bit images field indicates possible color entries used image contains colors using 32 colors 8 bit image , may want save 32 possible 256 palette entries generally , set field zero march 15 , 1991 7 color palettes entry color palette rgbquad structure rgbquad structure defined windows h include file typedef struct byte byte byte byte rgbquad field always zero color used , amount blue , green , red filled structure structure written file value zero , , fields indicates particular component contribute color composition value 255 fields indicates component contributes fully color composition image data three surprises ordering image data dib image file creator format determined creative , certainly within image data , line written padded next four byte quantity , 8 bit image one pixel wide , still write four bytes every image line number bytes per line calculated bytes per line \( width pix bit depth 31 \) 32 4 , terms fields bitmapinfoheader structure bytes per line \( 31 \) 32 4 writing image data , must write bottom line first bottom line image would look screen first line image data file 1 bit , 4 bit , 8 bit images , information written would expect one bit images padded eight pixels byte four bit images padded two pixels byte eight bit images written one pixel per byte twenty four bit images written three bytes per pixel however , 24 bit images information must written order blue , green , red image file formats write data march 15 , 1991 8 rgb ordering , dib image file writes data ordering summary provide enough information create dib images applications scanners image routines find dib images , please pass information modify document accordingly march 15 , 1991 thomas b kinsman , rochester , ny , thomas acadia kodak com practice random kindness senseless acts beauty anon ito u tokyo ac jp senior , department infomation science , faculty science , university tokyo , japan
cs rmit oz au \( glenn jayaputera \) subject windows 3 1 help ! organization rmit department computer science lines 11 funny yet confusing problem using within win 3 1 everytime close dos box , operation get affected \( normally file transfer \) however , open close windows program everything seems running smoothly file transfer operation get affected close dos box somebody please gimme pointers going fix \? \? thanks advance glenn jayaputera
subject changing windows fonts \? husc8 harvard edu \( daniel \) distribution world organization harvard university science center keywords windows , font , help summary change default font \? nntp posting host husc8 harvard edu lines 15 friend mine uses windows 3 1 work unfortunately , bad , n't able figure change default font used system application menus , font used help program \( use hypertext ca n't read \? \) make anyone knows increase size fonts , software package makes windows accessible visually handicapped people , please let know thanks , dan
rsrodger wam umd edu \( yamanari \) subject challenge microsoft supporters nntp posting host rac2 wam umd edu organization university maryland , college park lines 134 article uceng uc edu bferrell ant occ uc edu \( brett ferrell \) writes article 1993may1 154707 10177 hubcap clemson edu ludes hubcap clemson edu \( larry ludes ludwig \) writes munch must read many os 2 advertisements crash protection marketing gimick , n't funny 4 months using windows new machine 've crash , n't run mill configuration munch following reformatted sound funny , admit true windows crashed time \( read pc mag , exception \) 'd say massive crash problems exceedingly rare windows almost never crashes , crashed errant application \( personal favorite \? one corel 3 0 programs \) hand , os 2 crash randomly number times , mostly running 's applications instance today discovered new one downloading procomm plus windows \( running seamless standard vga drivers run o' da mill vga card 640x480 \) , decided wanted edit copy quote wanted add finger since 've learned really trust seamless , fired full screen winos 23 1 session whoops , download finished winos 2 loading gotten pointer , hit alt escape get back desktop \( lot fonts , loading takes good long \) screen trashed , procomm hangs hm well , sorta see mouse , clicked minimized winos 2 session got back windows session \( color red green yellow brown instead blues \) closed , got back desktop \( fully restored \) pp still sitting , window open , longer connected com port exited \( normal way told still online would hang , though already hung \) hm well , load , bad idea shutdown reboot ok , refresh first , shutdown yes , everything closed hm nothing seems happening let 's see ah , windows list still comes ok , let 's try shutdown go huh alright , wait 60 seconds see 's running slow hmm still seems running os 2 try shutdown nothing oh well reboot enjoy time case , part os crashed , os 2 entirely \( n't even smart enough tell compromised , guess \) everyday \( specifically today \) use os 2 gives windows app ca n't touch \( generally \) anything n't supposed 's idea , anyway truth , program crashes os 2 , bring system programs would gpf windows os 2 , programs fine dos windows bring os 2 screaming halt , task protection instance , i'm still wondering print preview windowed wp 5 1 \( dos \) locks system works fine dos even dos box windows 3 1 \( admittedly , n't crash run full screen , first time bug big , bit hard \) windows works , great maybe people n't see os 2 os choice windows n't crash , n't mind waiting task , please explain time wait anything windows i'm copying formatting floppy , printing \( even , long get 9 11 pages dumped per minute , still go things slowly 's 've downloaded pp 9600 printing \) able adress memory better dos , sure mean os 2 sees 16 megs , uses 5 six 's use \( want count winos 2 \) windows sees 16 megs , uses 3 4 \( like 5 count disk cache os 2 \) memory efficiency big issue , pc geos would current king intel desktop key reasons using os 2 gone probably would still use , would even fight hand finally able say confidence os 2 windows bit hardware sensitivity instance , machine sitting runs fine , machine next constantly locks windows \( ran os 2 without hitch got 5 crash install \) whole , 'd say os 2 whole lot sensitive windows , \( suppose \) machines windows n't like th week think 's wrong believe ism , believe n't ferris \? stupid laws , normal laws
queen mcs drexel edu \( jonathan \) subject nextstep intel sneak preview reminder organization drexel university , dept math comp sci lines 57 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 , philadelphia area nextstep user group , holding public sneak preview nextstep intel processors david labs room a1 walnut , southeast corner , philadelphia pa wednesday , may 5th 7 pm 9 pm nextstep 32 bit unix based operating environment , , available motorola based next computers may 11th issue pc magazine called nextstep hot prospect , next nearing release version nextstep run 486 based pc 's , yet identical 68040 version fact , nextstep 3 1 includes ability easily compile program single binary run intel motorola hardware nextstep 3 1 intel processors demonstrated epson progression 486 computer nextstep scheduled release may 25 expo san francisco demonstration open public come one come ! interested seeing advanced pc operating system around , come ! brief summary nextstep offers , see may 11th issue pc magazine , page 66 information , contact jonathan , philadelphia area nextstep user group 215 653 jon afs com jonathan w drexel university college info studies queen mcs drexel edu experience programming windows vs experience programming nextstep like going dentist root canal without vs going dentist gums cleaned w nitrous oxide thrown entertainment side things stone co jonathan w drexel university college info studies queen mcs drexel edu experience programming windows vs experience programming nextstep like going dentist root canal without vs going dentist gums cleaned w nitrous oxide thrown entertainment side things stone co
rmohns vax clarku edu subject challenge microsoft supporters organization clark university lines 22 previous article , dhhalden \( thomas \) wrote invented make money others ideas made money n't air wrong time n't beard rob , pointless , anyone else caught resemblance views rob faculty advisor , terminal , mohns view window purely dental richard may may rmohns vax support said views , probably n't clarku edu want think
nyx cs du edu \( matt \) subject \? required file format word ms window file \( doc \) x disclaimer nyx public access unix system run university denver denver community university neither control responsibility opinions users organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept distribution usa lines 29 article kee netcom com cosmos netcom com \( cosmos \) writes hi ! trying develop utility view word window file need know format doc \( word window file format \) files anybody tell format doc file direct get format \? help greatly appriciated thanks , format word windows doc files available microsoft call developer support services number \( sorry , n't handy \) ask word windows binary file format spec warning terribly useful , need lot looking figure stuff stored general primer word windows stores data two chunks first chunk actual text file stored together nothing text graphics second chunk formatting information general use , read word windows file , skip first 384 bytes file \( general header \) read remaining text hit binary data matt
gt2617c prism gatech edu \( brad smalling \) subject challenge microsoft supporters organization georgia institute technology lines 30 article 1993may1 wam umd edu rsrodger wam umd edu \( yamanari \) writes article uceng uc edu bferrell ant occ uc edu \( brett ferrell \) writes article 1993may1 154707 10177 hubcap clemson edu ludes hubcap clemson edu \( larry ludes ludwig \) writes able adress memory better dos , sure mean os 2 sees 16 megs , uses 5 six 's use \( want count winos 2 \) windows sees 16 megs , uses 3 4 \( like 5 count disk cache os 2 \) memory efficiency big issue , pc geos would current king intel desktop assumed referring os 2 's 32 bit flat model addressing dos \( therefore windows \) use 20 bit segmented addressing programmer , agree segmentation unnecessarily things 's annoying , windows user , n't think much , doubt many people think \( even care \) writing document , spreadsheet , etc works get work done neutral comment 's funny , think , arguments windows vs os 2 sound similar arguments atheism vs christianity something like 's somehow personal people convictions irrational 's nothing wrong 's interesting brad smalling jr ee ga tech atlanta , ga gt2617c prism gatech edu
cco caltech edu \( andrew tong \) subject challenge microsoft supporters organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 58 nntp posting host sandman caltech edu rsrodger wam umd edu \( yamanari \) writes 'd say massive crash problems exceedingly rare windows almost never crashes , crashed errant application \( personal favorite \? one corel 3 0 programs \) hand , os 2 crash randomly number times , mostly running 's applications know ibm systems , ps 2 , particular , absolutely problem os 2 never random crash running programs os 2 fact , n't remember ever crashing course , really n't run os 2 programs , bunch dos windows stuff 've always running \( system \) running dos windows , one crash , consistent ftp tendency crash whenever would get large files \( 1mb \) particularly fast clients \( dtr 's 150k 200k sec \) , figured problem smartdrv 's write buffering turned write buffer , everything would work fine ftp os 2 never locked , though even format floppies \( use often cited example superiority os 2 \) instance , i'm still wondering print preview windowed wp 5 1 \( dos \) locks system yeah , guess i'm willing admit os 2 somewhat sensitive specific hardware dos works perfectly fine please explain time wait anything windows i'm copying formatting floppy , printing \( even , long get 9 11 pages dumped per minute , still go things slowly 's 've downloaded pp 9600 printing \) well , save personal files floppy , windows , floppy save large file hung system also found quite bothersome continually tweak tasking options fractint dos whenever wanted fractal computation background able address memory better dos , sure mean idea os 2 's dos sessions see memory windows dos sessions let \( shareware calculus program \) see around free conventional memory , lets bigger symbolic manipulations possible straight dos \( would see around conventional ram \) also found really handy dos based programs , , without writing , could handle larger data sets , simulate , etc course , point moot , since os 2 programs write simply never run memory limitations never programmed windows , n't much comparison , though
messina netcom com \( tony \) subject \( info \) dos msw meltdown progressing nicely organization messina software lines 36 grebyn com \( marc \) writes messina netcom com \( tony \) writes ajayshah almaak usc edu \( ajay shah \) writes preferred applications development platform 1992 1993 unix 18 28 dos msw 24 18 development \? house apps \? maybe , certainly apps sold open market statistics like laughable , actually , might surprised find everyone develops mainstream dos windows apps develops dos windows pc week recently printed rumor microsoft 's excel development group development os 2 believe , nice piece swamp development microsoft even windows another trade rag article recently group windows development sun sparcstations softpc test work n't geo works , \? \) dos windows simply robust stable enough development work , imho , apparently others agree nonsense sorry , make fun windows time , simply myth tell microsoft , novell others dominate market
mats gar \( mats \) subject coda music finale petrucci font problem keywords coda finale music font atm petrucci eps adobe organization gallagher robertson lines 36 've using final coda time , suddenly stopped using fonts 386 pc lots disk space memory , postscript laser , win3 1 , finale 2 0 1 recently installed atm 2 0 've fiddling around windows setup time , needed work finale things n't print properly might might anything installation atm 1 something 2 0 , n't old atm lying around annoying problem petrucci font n't print , rather important font \) managed get direct printing work included 0 finale section win ini , compile postscript listing still n't work 's eps files need look eps files generated font appears courier found manually changed courier 24 point petrucci 24 point eps file everything worked ok , 'd rather avoid since lot songs work yes , special font font names dialog box fonts need listed , correct mapping finale , screen printer fonts finale obviously aware fonts since direct printing score works well \( , included 0 \) , windows applications print petrucci fonts well anyone encountered problems like \? current version finale coda music software \? 2 0 1 people coda available internet x 400 \? 'd grateful hints help mats internet mats gar mats gar mats x 400 g mats oslo p gr c
u7911093 cc nctu edu tw \( erik wang \) subject make mpeg sound \? organization national chiao tung university x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 20 hello , install one wav driver pc speaker , install mpeg 2 0 phoenix oulu fi pub incoming 0 zip windows 3 1 load one mpeg file make sound type wav mpeg , always say error load one mpeg file wav file \( wav \) , select sound type wav , normal error , still ca n't hear sound \? fix number ini \? thankx help internet address u7911093 cc nctu edu tw english name erik wang chinese name wang national chiao tung university , taiwan , r c
eric tgm cam org \( eric \) subject i'm using dos 6 anymore distribution world organization bell , revenue systems development reply eric tgm cam org lines 33 article 1993apr30 hubcap clemson edu charlea eng clemson edu writes regarding horror stories dos6 doubledisk stacker 2 \? killing hard drives wondering dos 6 mirror command works doubled drive info well normal fat table partition table records vital doubledisk info , using daily go long way toward protecting type catastrophic failure discussed n't , shame microsoft mirror one dos commands n't survive change dos 5 0 's dropped , along backup , join , couple old dos commands still use 5 0 commands absolutely , included 6 0 distribution disks however , mirror 's case , i'm 99 9 certain know anything drives eric eric internet eric tgm cam org ci , 55 \( quebec \) everybody right believe something canada \( 514 \) 663 believe 'll another beer !
gel cs mcgill ca \( gilles khouzam \) subject windows nt get beta organization socs mcgill university , montreal , canada lines 12 wondering anyone new could get beta version windows nt , part beta program thanks gel binkley cs mcgill ca p please reply e mail
cellar org \( brian p k' \) subject novell windows 3 1 organization cellar bbs public access system lines 35 i'm working workstation usually attached novell network \( using shell version 3 22 , think \) workstation , 386 , set run windows 3 0 network year ago needless say , 'd like upgrade windows 3 1 , work network basically , windows files 'd local hard drive , several dos applications , like word perfect , network 'd mainly want windows access network drives , network printers , perhaps handle network functions well could dos apps whose executables network , 'd great , could live without eventually , 'd like get 486s office working network windows 3 1 well \( however , terminals 286s , leaves network pretty much dos bound , guess leaves windows workgroups \) future , maybe 'd norton desktop , 's guess , 've never done anything like 've read networks material came windows , still , 'd like know anyone experience area please reply email n't scan newsgroups often thanks replies brian rev p k cellar org well , 'll know right away look eyes 's lost illusions 's worldly wise , know give listen , 's 've missing , 've missing 'll lost love fun cynical girl 's got use real world , i'm looking cynical girl marshall , cynical girl
nyx cs du edu \( dave dennis \) subject drivers stealth 24 organization university denver , dept math comp sci lines 30 hubcap clemson edu \( david e brown \) writes doug ward writes recently purchased diamond stealth 24 video card received wrong drivers anyone know ftp proper drivers \? file cica work video card please respond doug sun sws uiuc edu thank doug ward want get get \( also date \) use bbs 1 408 439 may take hour download rates low yeah , know costs locking system gets old quick maybe someone net 've got stealth drivers david number gave borland bbs , darned find stealth drivers ! diamond 's bbs 1 408 730 1100 according manual got stealth 24 bunch trouble using right drivers came card \( locking , de , etc \) hope better ! dave
cs173sbw sdcc5 ucsd edu \( cs173sbw \) subject video benchmarks wanted lines 18 nntp posting host sdcc5 ucsd edu hi , trying compile chart windows dos performance local bus video card dx2 66v one local bus video cards , please email winbench 3 11 3dbench \( obtainable ftp wustl edu , pub msdos uploads \) scores please give winmark score 800x600x256 post chart enough response received tseng et 4000 w32 vlb cl 5426 vlb s3 805 928 based local bus card ati ultra pro vlb orchid celsius 9000 vlb based vlb cards \( exist \? \) mga based video cards thanks
dialix oz au \( john oliver \) subject need help ! recording key windows organization dialix services , perth , western australia lines 24 nntp posting host localhost dialix oz au summary need record replay pause continue keystrokes keywords researcher need replay pause continue recording wor x newsreader nn version 6 4 19 1 sorry confusing subject summary keywords ! ! ! researcher applied linguistics university perth western australia desperately need help ! ! ! need record results word processing sessions windows sit replay results research behaviours naturally , windows 2 3 apps windows cannot pause resume ! ! ! ! e ctrl break get useless researcher needs able pause session make notes resume left commence research masters thesis would extremely grateful assistance anyone help could mail odin dialix oz au many thanks advance john oliver
organization bar ilan university computing center , israel vm ac il subject postscript bmp conversion lines 13 hi working project visual basic ver 2 0 need show postcript files getting another , ca n't show postscript directly form visual basic \( least n't know \) , need utility convert bmp , wmf help sent asimov nl
organization american university university computing center zhao auvm american edu subject need iconized printer utility lines 2 looking printer utility stay window 3 1 icon let drag file issue printing
campbers craft clarkson edu \( bob campbell \) subject challenge microsoft supporters news software ibm os 2 pm rn \( nr 2 \) v0 17 vishnepolsky r rogers lines 15 reply vax cns muskingum edu disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host campbers bocaraton ibm com organization ibm boca raton hey larry , comp sci major never crash damn computer cs dept teach good programmer one assembly programs ever machine crash protection marketing gimick , n't funny 4 months using windows new machine 've crash , n't run mill configuration bother putting stupid posts ignorant bob campbell clarkson university , ny campbers craft clarkson edu
claebaur shell portal com \( tony annese \) subject need iconized printer utility nntp posting host jobe organization portal communications company 408 973 9111 \( voice \) 408 973 8091 \( data \) lines 12 article 93122 auvm american edu zhao auvm american edu writes looking printer utility stay window 3 1 icon let drag file issue printing one minimize print manager drag file print need associate file extensions things notepad though tony annese claebaur shell portal com claebaur cup portal com
campbers craft clarkson edu \( bob campbell \) subject challenge microsoft supporters news software ibm os 2 pm rn \( nr 2 \) v0 17 vishnepolsky r rogers lines 7 reply vax cns muskingum edu disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host campbers bocaraton ibm com organization clarkson university yamanari , hey n't funny bugs hey favor n't put stupid posts bob clarkson university , ny campbers craft clarkson edu
tom vpnet chi il us \( tom hansen \) subject replacement program organization vpnet public access lines 27 article uupcb com les tom com \( les tom \) writes maw ying yuan wrote yuan wiliki eng hawaii edu \( maw ying yuan \) subject replacement program manager file manager \? message id news hawaii edu date thu , 29 apr 1993 06 44 04 gmt replacements win3 1 's program manager file manager \? yuan wiliki eng hawaii edu \) hi , 've using 's plug program manager best one 've seen ceo , software version , retail version 40 50 's incredibly complete , level , choose icon , hot keys , drop menus , button bars , etc n't found anything n't try mailing 144 compuserve com details tom tom hansen beard grows toes never wears tom vpnet chi il us clothes wraps hair around bare , yam yam road goes shel
subject mouse jumpy \? \( ms mouse \) cunyvm bitnet organization city university new york lines 6 everyone seems think man 's mouse problem mechanical \( dirty \) similar problem mouse , occurs ru windows therefore cannot mechanical nature i'm running mouse systems compatible mouse 486 66 dx2 trident 1 meg video card similar well strange font e traces left screen windows gpf errors help ! ! !
tedm tsoft net \( ted matsumura \) subject need iconized printer utility organization tsoft bbs public access unix , 1 415 969 8238 lines 22 article 520 unix portal com claebaur shell portal com \( tony annese \) writes article 93122 auvm american edu zhao auvm american edu writes looking printer utility stay window 3 1 icon let drag file issue printing one minimize print manager drag file print need associate file extensions things notepad though tony annese claebaur shell portal com claebaur cup portal com may work , wo n't involve invoking applications , e g drag bmp txt file min print manager icon , wo n't run notepad paintbrush printing \? want drag file \( txt bmp \) print server icon , stay front attributes , need intelligent print manager drag drop client like amish print 2 0 ted
subject line mail netnews miavx1 acs muohio edu organization miami university academic computer service lines 9 line mail readers net news \? qwk format \? would really helpfull able download net news vax mainframe read line adam hodge miavx1 acs muohio edu
claebaur shell portal com \( tony annese \) subject need iconized printer utility nntp posting host jobe organization portal communications company 408 973 9111 \( voice \) 408 973 8091 \( data \) lines 18 article tsoft net tedm tsoft net \( ted matsumura \) writes article 520 unix portal com claebaur shell portal com \( tony annese \) writes one minimize print manager drag file print need associate file extensions things notepad though may work , wo n't involve invoking applications , e g drag bmp txt file min print manager icon , wo n't run notepad paintbrush printing \? want drag file \( txt bmp \) print server icon , stay front attributes , need intelligent print manager drag drop client like amish print 2 0 yes invokes associated application takes 10 seconds \? tony annese claebaur shell portal com claebaur cup portal com
cfw world std com \( christopher f wroten \) subject problem dos box windows file compressed organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 16 've started getting message windows 3 1 whenever try execute dos program windows , either thru program manager file manager message box comes says program one components compressed use ms dos expand command expand file , know bogus , always execute program dos running windows program question command com \( yup , basic dos command line shell \) , expand command tells file already expanded windows apps work fine get message trying execute dos program windows clues anyone \? thanks ! ! christopher wroten , cfw world std com
ewl world std com \( erich w lantz \) subject wordbasic time date variables summary question time date vars wordbasic keywords winword variable mail wordbasic macro organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 32 i'm writing mail management system using word windows 2 0 front end user remote system downloads batch mail foo txt 've set autoexec macro winword load foo txt ok , subsequent macro course pose file name contention problems 'd really like create macro winword would move foo txt specified directory , rename using current date time , delete original foo txt words , foo txt gets renamed , say , may 1 23 00 user gets time indexed backup mail files foo txt freed next packet mail , since autoexec macro points main question may one rename file within wordbasic macro include time date variable new filename \? thanks ever reach total enlightenment drinking beer , bet makes beer shoot nose jack handey erich w lantz ewl world std com , va dod 0815
ak333 cleveland freenet edu \( martin linsenbigler \) subject changing windows fonts \? organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 36 reply ak333 cleveland freenet edu \( martin linsenbigler \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu previous article , husc8 harvard edu \( daniel \) says friend mine uses windows 3 1 work unfortunately , bad , n't able figure change default font used system application menus , font used help program \( use hypertext ca n't read \? \) make anyone knows increase size fonts , software package makes windows accessible visually handicapped people , please let know thanks , dan may issue pc computing page 246 windows hint tips thing edit win ini file add couple lines tried works actually made title bar iconized text , icon text smaller monitor works well select larger font also edit win ini file font name system directory read article would want case type caused system problems c ya artin communication sent artin university arizona tucson ak333 cleveland freenet edu mlinsenb ccit arizona edu mlinsenb arizvms death dead 2 , 000 years follow king kings
matt ksu ksu edu \( brett watson \) subject sound board buy \? organization kansas state university lines 28 distribution usa nntp posting host matt ksu ksu edu well , 've come money want buy cd rom , sound board speakers kept material relating sound boards cd rom 's never thought 'd enough money guru 's point direction good package including cd rom , sound , speakers \( software suppose \) since n't really need cd rom right give good ideas sound boards speakers could really use looked soundblaster pro , costs much think want spend board \( 120 \) , 've looked sound board , 140 n't know adv either boards right want use games support sound , use windows 3 1 utilize sound capabilities concise info sound boards , complete multimedia packages , etc would greatly appreciated anyone else interested info would glad summarize responses post type faq please point right direction n't bother taking lot bandwidth thanks ! brett brett watson , database system administrator kansas supreme court , ks
gel cs mcgill ca \( gilles khouzam \) subject windows ati ultra \( chip \) sizing question nntp posting host binkley cs mcgill ca organization socs mcgill university , montreal , canada lines 24 article uwaterloo ca mike tancsa mdtancsa watarts uwaterloo ca writes upgraded trident tvga9000 ati graphics ultra \( old chip \) quite pleased performance far , one problem using windows 800x600 , noticed tile bars scroll bars significantly larger using trident card setting ini files change make smaller \? could find faq list mike mdtancsa watarts uwaterloo ca make sure use small fonts driver large fonts driver check setup 's explanation would find hope helps gel
uxh cso uiuc edu \( kyle \) subject nt ready \? keywords nt organization university illinois urbana lines 5 able call favorite mail order software shop buy nt \? jeff ce uiuc edu
paladin world std com \( thomas g schlatter \) subject mouse jumpy \? \( ms mouse \) organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 20 article 93122 cunyvm bitnet cunyvm bitnet writes everyone seems think man 's mouse problem mechanical \( dirty \) similar problem mouse , occurs ru windows therefore cannot mechanical nature understanding bus mice accurate stable general serial mice remember correctly , differences interrupts handled , well fact mouse data received computer bus opposed \( 9600 bps \? \) serial connection i'm running mouse systems compatible mouse 486 66 dx2 trident 1 meg video card similar well strange font e traces left screen windows gpf errors help ! ! ! general problem , associated specific application group applications \?
christian de \( christian \) subject emm386 windows organization \( im e v \) lines 21 x gateway news 1 15 ! ebosco us oracle com wrote 28 04 93 emm386 windows e von ebosco us oracle com \( mi , 28 04 93 18 03 \) e name eric bosco e use emm386 remove config sys \? basically windows prefers memory instead expanded \( work win \) application needs ems , leave emm386 rem config sys bye , chris
magnus acs ohio state edu \( k gupta \) subject wordbasic visual basic macros template \? \? \? organization ohio state university lines 31 nntp posting host charm magnus acs ohio state edu working visual basic v2 0 windows specifically , working application generates formatted reports since , reports rather large , first question 1 way increase size list box text box visual basic windows beyond 64k limit \? \( yet optimistic \) come across way get around problem , working following approach trying create defined template ms word , using wordbasic macros open word visual basic \( vb \) load template mine , work following way first open ini file \( created vb time user selected kind report \) read section ini file jump appropriate code template open read file pertaining section read ini file 1 using function wordbasic , way specify change default ini file \( win ini \) ini file \? 2 using file input function wordbasic way read 32k one time \? help appreciated magnus acs ohio state edu
delgreco rahul net \( david f delgreco \) subject recommendation screen capture program keywords , screen capture , screen shot , windows nntp posting host bolero organization a2i network lines 34 i'm looking recommendations screen capture programs couple issues ago , pc mag listed editor 's choices conversion artist hijaak windows anyone experience others \? i'm trying get alpha manual next days , i'm making much progress screen shots \( i'm currently using i'm burn disks rode 's got lot bugs driving crazy tonight decided graphic writes tiff file 's certain arbitrary size , swap left right sides picture ! usually confines copying things clipboard \( save load pix editing paintbrush \) crashing every hour one nice thing , though , 's dither option 'd think would turn colors dots , go , say , 256 colors 16 colors go 256 16 colors b w , set threshold level colors turn black turn white , useful turn light grays buttons white , dark grays black , thereby preserve 3d effect buttons parts window understood description \) tell another \( less buggy ! \) program well \? much thanks help signature david delgreco lies behind us lies technically writer us tiny matters compared delgreco rahul net lies within us oliver wendell holmes david f delgreco delgreco rahul net
tomh metrics com \( tom haapanen \) subject hercules graphite \? \( results ! \) organization software metrics inc lines 48 tomh metrics com \( tom haapanen \) writes anyone used hercules graphite adapter \? looks good paper , steve gibson gave good review infoworld 'd love get real world impression , though speed \? drivers \? support \? monu6 cc monash edu au \( b wuysang \) writes impressive performance graphite winmark , wintach result \( esp paint performance \) judging wintach tests , hardly imagine cheat driver received graphite vl thursday , 've little bit experience general , feels fast , although first vlb card tried still , results impressive 486dx2 66 w 16 mb , running 1024x768 256 , 've following wintach 1 0 results card wp cad spread paint overall ati graphics ultra 13 5 14 5 19 1 25 0 18 0 ati ultra \( aperture \) 11 2 13 8 10 7 20 9 14 1 hercules graphite vl 16 1 67 8 41 4 52 8 44 5 unfortunately n't numbers , ati ultra pro vlb overall wintach score 26 ultra pro nearly fast text handling , blown away cad paint tests additional test , hand timed complex coreldraw ! slide resize redraw times swapping , 'd expect fairly heavy load cpu graphite redraw times averaged 10 2 seconds , ati ultra pro 12 0 steve gibson 's contention isa graphite faster ati complex micrografx draw document far , i'm impressed drivers look solid , card flies installation utilities different , comparable ati 's n't wait build 59 reliability software developer special , get evaluation copy card 225 \( 200 isa version \) call 800 532 0600 want give try i'm happy customer ! tom haapanen tomh metrics com software metrics inc waterloo , ont stick index fingers corners mouth pull 's corrado makes feel car , january '93
ccastco prism gatech edu \( costas malamas \) subject opinions wanted fastest win driver organization georgia institute technology lines 24 yesterday , friend mine got new driver card doubled speed naturally , besides tad jealous \( machine different cards \) , got thinking using slow driver \? would n't horrible \? \) netlanders , need samples collective experience \( sic \) proud owners trident 8900c video card w 1mb vram tried one driver fro ms win 3 1 \? fastest \? selfish , give motive responding , promise going collect answers , actual drivers \( provided u give site get uuencode mail \) get winmarks using pc winbench post results interested svga drivers \( plain vga users run win driver , 've heard dont flame ! \) particularly 800x600x256 \( cover majority svga users \) well , waiting \? hit r f whatever input welcome money sun sparcstations thanx advance costas malamas georgia institute technology oit ua oit n't pay enough share opinions internet ccastco prism gatech edu
twalls ncc1701d demon co uk \( tim walls \) subject challenge microsoft supporters distribution world x newssoftware grn 1 16f \( 10 17 92 \) mike schwartz michael b smith organization bbs development lines 42 article vax clarku edu rmohns vax clarku edu writes would hardly call command delete tree , move command , state art bang feature damn necessary , often cursed able kind recursive delete missing something windows file manager , ms n't want run blasted windows every time want delete tree absolutely ludicrous load hog like delete files ! would like requiring crane change tyre car wants people buy windows , dos ms knows dos wo n't last forever crap , fault want move windows 3 1 , later win32 , eventually cairo way give reason deliberately crippling product \? surely oh , hold , guess 're right certainly stinks microsoft marketing techniques point still remains command delete trees new technology , kind thing one would expected see long windows even want good file handling \? use exe product requires microsoft windows dos dead well amen , wish damn sight dead product , used awful lot suspect going carry twitching long yet , n't anyone good \( microsoft n't appear given marketing dos , unusual form death indeed \) tim walls sysop protocol bbs data fax 44 \( 0 \) 403 fidonet 2 253 513 amiganet 39 133 1 twalls ncc1701d demon co uk pgp 2 2 public key available
gel cs mcgill ca \( gilles khouzam \) subject equation editor nntp posting host binkley cs mcgill ca organization socs mcgill university , montreal , canada lines 24 article 1993may11 iitmax iit edu chico acc iit edu \( \( \) \) writes i'm using word windows quite satisfied , except equation editor screws time try insert equation give two errors fence font found meta font found real problem display print integral sign anyone else problem \? solve \? i'm using z sport 486 laptop panasonic printer , running msdos 5 0 windows 3 1 thanks , problem , need expand fonts manually , program disk 1 equations fonts disk 3 fun gel
mokler desert berlin de \( claudius mokler \) subject true type atm \? organization private site lines 18 seen point view , atm using postscript fonts better truetype hinting mechanism incorporated ps gorgeous users may see limit possible different characters ps font may better use features tt fonts \( windows nt \) 've seen lots really beautiful small size ps fonts n't seen tt fonts rendering quite inaccurate \( small sizes , esp screen fonts \) simply compare ps font tt font first looks better hoping atm nt ! claudius mokler e mail mokler desert berlin de
mokler desert berlin de \( claudius mokler \) subject find diamond speedstar 24x drivers \? organization private site lines 11 subject says nearly everything talking accellerator card \( note 'x' \) , et4000 product \( without 'x' \) please mail address appropriate ftp server thanx claudius mokler e mail mokler desert berlin de
chen cwru edu \( keng chen \) subject control systems analysis package cosy pak v0 9 \( updated \) mathematica organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 555 distribution world nntp posting host mishna esys cwru edu keywords control systems , engineering , mathematica , public domain \( fee release \) announcing cosy pak \( symbolic control systems analysis package \) version 0 9 \( user fee release \) mathematica version 2 0 higher introduction cosy pak set packages notebooks classical control \( \) modern \( state space \) control analysis design methods notebooks cosy pak follow typical engineering i' course taught many universities around world junior senior level fee use cosy pak certain responsibilities expected user \( see copyright notice readme file included \) starters e mail fax mail \( post \) registration form included readme file cosy pak available via `anonymous mishna esys cwru edu \( internet 129 22 40 23 \) pub directory p typical ftp session unix given readme file future releases would like receive updates newer versions cosy pak please send e mail fax mail address addition , comments suggestions appreciated invaluable us best fix reported bugs however , cannot fix bugs reported us know would much appreciate taking minutes communicate us via e mail us mail telephone fax help us release bug free versions future comments welcome n sreenath systems engineering department case school engineering case western reserve university e mail mishna cwru edu u mail prof n sreenath tel \( 216 \) 368 systems engg , crawford hall fax \( 216 \) 368 3123 case western reserve univ cleveland oh 44106 7070 begin readme file \( user fee release \) cosy pak \( symbolic control systems analysis package \) version 0 9 mathematica version 2 0 higher c k chen n sreenath systems engineering case school engineering case western reserve university cleveland , oh , 44106 7070 e mail mishna cwru edu copyright copyright copyright 1992 c k chen n sreenath , case western reserve university permission use , copy , modify distribute software documentation purpose without fee hereby granted , provided copyright notice appear supporting documentation , name case western reserve university , case school engineering used advertising publicity pertaining distribution software without specific , without prior permission case western reserve university makes representations software purpose provided express implied warranty support cwru information network services dr ray neff , case alumni association , lilly foundation systems engineering department case western reserve university gratefully acknowledged special thanks brian evans georgia tech help ftp cosy pak available anonymous mishna esys cwru edu \( internet 129 22 40 23 \) sample ftp session given end file changes version 0 9 \( update v0 81 v0 9 \) version , revised cosy pak take advantage robust signal processing functions available mathematica v2 1 since mathematica 2 1 provides better working laplacetransform functions mathematica v2 0 , adopted made cosy pak smaller thus brian signal processing packages supported laplacetransform functions cosy pak v0 81 longer needed directly cosy pak v0 9 power users use signal processing still recommend use fine brian evans package signal processing \( available anonymous ftp site gauss gatech edu ip 130 207 226 24 \) downside , disadvantage update mathematica 2 1 requires runtime resources previous version mathematica 2 0 users included laplacetransform package mathematica 2 1 directory 2 0' please move files directory 2 0 calculus directory mathematica packages directory introduction unsupported release cosy pak control systems analysis package symbolic control systems analysis using mathematica 2 1 classical control systems analysis design methods modern control systems methods implemented package package attendant notebooks developed next \( tm \) computer \( unix based workstation \) used supplementary teaching aid along standard control engineering texts \( 1991 , phillips harbor 1991 \) undergraduate courses engineering i' taught systems engineering department cwru addition next , also tested successfully apple macintosh computers \( tm \) , , ibm pc 's \( tm \) running ms windows \( tm \) would much interested hear anybody know uses software platforms mentioned ibm users however evaluate notebooks first visualize graphics installed \( see instructions \) , collection mathematica packages loaded user bundled packages many notebooks \( cosy notes \) demonstrate functionality packages notebooks follow plan many fine , standard , undergraduate control engineering text books listed references examples used notebooks collected various references given end file contents notebooks cosy notes directory given begin cosy notes contents notebook file name 01 introduction chapter 1 introduction control systems sections poles zeros signals forward laplace transforms inverse laplace transforms differential equation zero valued initial conditions differential equation initial conditions notebook file name 02 math models chapter 2 mathematical modeling dynamic systems sections state space nonlinear system equations state space transfer function notebook file name 03 transient response chapter 3 transient response analysis \( chapter split three sub notebooks file size \) notebook file name 03 1 transient response sections time response analysis first order system second order system third order higher order systems notebook file name 03 2 transient response sections first order system \( step response vs time const \) notebook file name 03 3 transient response sections second order system \( step response vs ratio \) notebook file name 04 steady state response chapter 4 steady state response sections routh 's stability steady state error analysis notebook file name 05 root locus chapter 5 root locus analysis notebook file name 06 freq response chapter 6 frequency response analysis sections bode plot analysis magnitude vs phase plot \( nichols plot \) polar plot plot combined example notebook file name 07 state space chapter 7 state space methods sections introduction state transition matrix output pole placement design observer design time response using state space methods end notebook contents compressed files files contain complete set cosy pak v0 9 packages notebooks mathematica cosy pak 09 tar z compressed tar file unix systems cosy pak 09 sit hqx compressed sit file macintosh systems encoded binhex 4 0 format \( requires shareware stuffit file v 1 5 1 higher \) cosy pak ibm 09 zip zip file ibm pc running ms dos expanded mathematica files also used macintosh ibm pc unix systems also installation cosy pak unix command line type following command cosy pak 09 tar z tar xvf macintosh open sit hqx file using shareware stuffit v 1 5 1 higher ibm command line type following command pkunzip cosy pak ibm 09 zip note zip file zip utility v2 0 must use pkunzip version 2 0 higher unzip ibm pc 's may limit directory name characters eight event type pkunzip cosy pak zip also unzip cosy pak ibm 09 zip file unix machine unzip utility cosy pak 09 tar z cosy pak ibm 09 zip create directory called cosy pak files expanded see single directory cosy pak containing following three files , four sub directories contents sub directories cosy pak contains control tool box packages manual cosy pak manual ps , rtf , txt , wn formats cosy notes contains notebooks 2 0 contains laplace transform package mathematica 2 1 mathematica 2 0 users files directory files directory cosy notes 01 introduction 02 math model 03 1 transient response 03 2 transient response 03 3 transient response 04 steady state response 05 root locus 06 freq response 07 state space files directory 2 0 laplacetransform sub directories cosy pak common files directory common support important notebook example files \( files \) cosy notes directory use notebooks , move directory directory mathematica recognize mathematica packages unix machine , harddisk mathematica packages apple macintosh , c packages ibm pc beginning initialization cell notebook cosy notes directory , list example make mathematica identify directory \( initialization path \) \( example unix machine \( default \) \) \( path join path , mathematica packages \) \( example apple macintosh \) \( path join path , harddisk mathematica packages \) \( example ibm pc \) \( path join path , c packages \) change pathname according machine removing mathematica comment sign ` \( ' ` \) ' ` setting command makes mathematica recognize directory mathematica packages unix machine harddisk mathematica packages apple macintosh c packages ibm pc mathematica 2 0 users include laplacetransform package mathematica 2 1 directory 2 0 please move files directory 2 0 calculus directory mathematica packages directory getting started installation , start mathematica open notebooks cosy notes directory notebooks load packages navigate notebooks enjoy ibm users however evaluate notebooks visualize graphics user responsibilities request take minutes fill information mail us e mail fax u mail help us keep improvements release new versions cosy pak suggestions improvements welcome cut name organization title e mail postal address comments suggestions cut mail information \( e mail fax u mail \) internet mishna cwru edu u mail prof n sreenath tel \( 216 \) 368 systems engg , crawford hall fax \( 216 \) 368 3123 case western reserve univ cleveland oh 44106 7070 report bugs please report bugs leave comments address suggestion improvements criticism welcome best fix reported bugs however , cannot fix bugs reported us know would much appreciate taking minutes communicate us via e mail us mail telephone fax help us release bug free versions future disclaimer future releases software property case western reserve university use software risk make express implied warranty packages notebooks also made run mathematica versions 2 0 lower modification guarantee outcome documentation cosy pak functions indexed files directory according chapters usage illustrated notebooks residing directory computer support notebooks find macintosh computer acquire public domain notebook reader least allow peruse notebooks able evaluate code fragments references , r c , modern control systems , sixth edition , addison wesley , new york , 1992 fortmann , e , , k l , introduction linear control systems , marcel , 1977 franklin , g f , powell , j , , , feedback control dynamic systems , second edition , addison wesley , new york , 1991 kuo , b c , automatic control systems , sixth edition , prentice hall , new jersey , 1990 , k , modern control engineering , second edition , prentice hall , new jersey , 1991 phillips , c l , harbor , r , feedback control systems , second edition , prentice hall , new jersey , 1991 end readme file typical session ftp mishna esys cwru edu connected mishna 220 mishna ftp server \( version 5 20 \( next 1 0 \) sun nov 11 , 1990 \) ready name \( mishna esys cwru edu \) anonymous password ftp cd pub ftp binary ftp ls 200 port command successful 150 opening ascii mode data connection file list cosy pak 09 tar z cosy pak ibm 09 zip index readme places cosy pak 226 transfer complete 78 bytes received 0 seconds \( 15 35 kbytes \) ftp get cosy pak 09 tar z 200 port command successful 150 opening binary mode data connection cosy pak 09 tar z \( bytes \) 226 transfer complete local cosy pak 09 tar z remote cosy pak 09 tar z bytes received 1 33 seconds \( 3 02 kbytes \) ftp quit 221 goodbye
waikato ac nz subject windows 3 1 video driver organization university waikato , hamilton , new zealand lines 11 've got old super vga card manufactured taiwan i'm looking windows 3 1 driver 's based cirrus logic cl b chip 've contacted suppliers new zealand say windows 2 divers ever written manufacturer 's v3 1 driver chip set 'd like know preferably e mail waikato ac nz thanks advance ross james
jburke abacus bates edu \( jburke \) subject text editor handle large files organization bates college , , maine nntp posting host abacus bates edu lines 11 title says anyone know text editor \( like notepad \) handle large text files \? thanx help ! james burke reading agree hold writer responsible evil jburke abacus bates edu happening may time
jenk microsoft com \( jen kilmer \) subject challenge microsoft supporters organization microsoft corporation distribution usa lines 103 article tamsun tamu edu cs tamu edu \( jeffrey \) writes article 1993may10 microsoft com , jenk microsoft com \( jen kilmer \) writes article uceng uc edu bferrell ant occ uc edu \( brett ferrell \) writes article microsoft com cliffga microsoft com \( clifford garrett \) writes guess thats many new dos os 2 applications coming hardly windows apps coming \? \( irony \) yep , os 2 apps comming , os 2 apps comming yet another micro hoping says something long enough , hey , remember good old days running os 2 2 0 alpha brief , excel , word , couple internal apps \( product support database client , os 2 based email front end \) life good also impractical 'cause masses using windows job help masses apparently prefer os 2 windows least windows 3 0 , yes last comment mean knowledge os 2 dated \( must \) argue 's definitely dated used os 2 1 21 , alpha 2 0 \( developing \) suspect masses using windows could n't afford use os 2 , say much nt \? preferred windows 3 1 stable faster 3 0 , could still run apps os 2 \( made choice 2 0 released \) getting back original question , data relative windows applications versus os 2 applications evidence stated support dropped \? , 've seen data grow companies supporting os 2 make points please see life terms debating points , think need grow ah yes remember days kids would engage orderly debate , parents would usually find force us act mature manner casting rocks dirt hee hee good one n't help microsoft employees \( assume , due org , may wrong \) saying trivial things net \? microsoft employs 10 , 000 employees walking place like walking 1984 commercial individuals think 'll talk way , say thing , help microsoft time \? , \? appears frustration attitude encountered one 've encountered well hand experience reading thread microsoft unique position present facts , hmm sure \? i'm speaking experience os 2 user certainly people , say , nt marketing group would unique position present results , say , research upcoming nt os 2 apps \( vs windows ms dos apps \) part point cause one works microsoft mean one access data \( exists \) prefer make baseless claims attack poster must make conclusion confess , times , attacking poster usenet accounts restricted 're open , primarily recreational purposes yeah , us likely answer question hop debate make stupid comments know , like human beings \? i'm sorry newsgroup hackers stranded , humans alt microsoft humans \? seem discount others anyway , point microsofties sell readers products \( would conflict ads philosophy usenet \) necessarily access info others also get tired people assuming microsofties , like , members borg jen include stdisclaimer jenk microsoft com msdos testing
richs microsoft com \( rick schaut \) subject challenge microsoft supporters organization microsoft corporation reply richs microsoft com \( rick schaut \) distribution usa lines 27 article infodev cam ac uk cus cam ac uk \( j r \) writes even , point still stands extent 64k limits appear place really necessary , edit control limit 64k limit may necessary limitation , probably fall within category limitations find trying allocate edit control 64k text , 's probably time take good look program 's design small limit number global memory handles allowed \? way number \? seems 'd hit wall many ways 'd hit limit global handles , unless , course , 're abusing please n't try tell 's impossible abuse resources available operating systems systems limits question whether limits reasonable far , n't offered single argument suggests windows' limits less reasonable limits systems rick schaut uucp uunet uw beaver ! microsoft ! richs microsoft n't speak , n't speak microsoft
cwis unomaha edu \( bae \) subject using mouse dos window organization university nebraska omaha lines 8 way use mouse running dos app \( windowed \) win 3 1 \? window dos apps \( enhanced mode \) , see mouse cursor , n't work ! help would greatly appreciated thank bae cwis unomaha edu
flash aragorn csee lehigh edu \( stephen \) subject driver chips technologies video board needed organization lehigh university lines 14 nntp posting host aragorn csee lehigh edu would like find windows 3 x driver video board based chips technologies chipset actual board scorpion made based c chipset , barely supports graphics mode hoping c driver could used 640x480x256 mode thanks stephen systems manager lecturer 19 memorial drive west eecs lehigh edu eecs dept , lehigh university lehigh edu bethlehem , pa voice 215 758 fax 215 758
rhea ctr columbia edu \( yuan \) subject utility let remap keyboard ms win \? organization columbia university center telecommunications research x posted rhea ctr columbia edu nntp posting host sol ctr columbia edu lines 6 utility let remap keyboard ms win \? thanks pointer
ucsd edu \( mike fischer \) subject challenge microsoft supporters organization university california , san diego lines 38 distribution world nntp posting host 41 1 extern ucsd edu article twalls ncc1701d demon co uk twalls ncc1701d demon co uk \( tim walls \) writes twalls ncc1701d demon co uk \( tim walls \) subject challenge microsoft supporters date mon , 10 may 1993 19 23 26 0000 article vax clarku edu rmohns vax clarku edu writes n't want run blasted windows every time want delete tree absolutely ludicrous load hog like delete files ! would like requiring crane change tyre car n't , never 's enhanced shells remember 4dos \? mean , come , ca n't expect dos cover everything r1 0 microsoft projects work want move windows 3 1 , later win32 , eventually cairo way give reason deliberately crippling product \? surely oh , hold , guess 're right certainly stinks microsoft marketing techniques n't think deliberately crippled project hand , technical achievement considering rides top dos mean , get gui reasonable speed pc xwindows running top linux something similar 're still gonna need fast processor dos 's death well amen , wish damn sight dead product , used awful lot suspect going carry twitching long yet , n't anyone good except people use dos programs , means 75 business world mike
sundaram egr msu edu \( divya sundaram \) subject challenge microsoft supporters organization michigan state university lines 36 distribution usa nntp posting host ee msu edu jenk microsoft com \( jen kilmer \) writes much bs deleted brevity , point microsofties sell readers products \( would conflict ads philosophy usenet \) necessarily access info others certainly smacks ! remember poll quoted saying seen 95 users satisfied dos 6 0 \? care recall unbiased sample set \? post sure looked like fud coming microsoftie well , sure seemed like something level advocacy good spreading fud advocate favorite os unethical especially vested interest success os also get tired people assuming microsofties , like , members borg actions seem invite opinion never seen defensive people life moreover , many posts seem encourage , imho seriously speaking , shame ms techie employees get heat ms 's actions perpetrated management marketing sure talented etc doubts abilities , ethics marketing practices divya divya live long , die slow horrible death confucius wanted say
timbol netcom com \( mike timbol \) subject challenge microsoft supporters organization netcom online communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) distribution usa lines 34 article uceng uc edu bferrell moth occ uc edu \( brett ferrell \) writes article 1993may10 microsoft com microsoft com \( jim francis \) writes know fact reason many companies wrote os 2 apps ibm paid 'd write app ti 99 4a ti paid advance ibm pay many people many apps stops , development software companies stay business writing apps wo n't generate revenue fact ibm paying allowed stay business many apps selling \? ask wordperfect , borland , lotus , much revenue getting sales plan writing apps may suprised answer wo n't would get microsoft practices , thread would go every interesting point , wo n't dispute , pray tell , know fact anything , n't provided insight source \? think accept fact maybe would gave word , even says knows fact , gain gives word \? think 's lying right \? c'mon would appear employed competition , expect asked sources give front make claim brett sherron ferrell email bferrell uceng uc edu anyway , give word , without naming sources , ibm paid companies write applications os 2 satisfied \? mike
mazz pluto \( richard \) subject problem wallpaper display corrupt bitmaps 512k keywords problem wallpaper bitmap win3 1 organization uni newcastle , australia lines 26 problem wallpaper desktop , 1024x768x256 mode bitmap files bigger 512k \( slightly less sometimes depending exact dimensions \) , wallpaper display badly corrupted rest desktop fine wallpaper bitmaps smaller , problem friend 800k bitmap problems , possible also possible display bitmaps using cshow 1024x768x256 mode problem , video card fault remedy \? system , 4mb ram dos 6 0 , windows 3 1 oak 1mb 077 video card , 1024x768x256 mode , using supplied drivers windows permanent 11 , swap file please reply via e mail , use address sig , post software always seems address header thanks , mazz richard ph student uni newcastle ph \( \) mazz newcastle edu au australia
sundaram egr msu edu \( divya sundaram \) subject challenge microsoft supporters organization michigan state university lines 26 distribution usa nntp posting host ee msu edu much editing get point brett sherron ferrell writes interesting point , wo n't dispute , pray tell , know fact anything , n't provided insight source \? think accept fact maybe would gave word , even mike timbol responds says knows fact , gain gives word \? think 's lying right \? think lying , also feel hesitant take anybody word unless attribute source thier claims fud misconceptions outright lies flying around advocacy newsgroups , trust unsubstantiated rumor claim especially employees ibm 's microsoft , anyone seems vested interest divya divya live long , die slow horrible death confucius wanted say
cs vu nl \( ml \) subject workgroups windows organization fac wiskunde informatica , vu , amsterdam lines 22 hello , want little network 3 users users want run windows important things want network file sharing , mail utility , two printers one computers fax modem card one computers want use others harddisk idea buy three computers \( one 486dx two 386dx \) three 40mb local harddisk , 486 also large harddisk three also network card 486 connected printers contains fax modem card last least workgroups windows questions possible \? exactly possibilities advantages workgroups windows \? computers fast enough \? behind three , someone working thanks ,
eastwood sybase com \( david eastwood \) subject installation oddity distribution usa organization sybase , inc lines 11 last night tried reinstall utilities windows 3 1 resource kit disk setup program appeared run perfectly normally , finished , program group created , know 've done successfully , creating group n't exactly tax , i'm curious might going assume something left last time installed getting way , ca n't figure clues , anyone \? david eastwood sybase inc , , ca eastwood sybase com
mkr comtech com \( mark k \) subject 15 bit rgb organization comtech labs inc , palo alto distribution usa lines 3 working 24 bit rgb bmp files need 15 16 bit images convert 24 bit images 15 16 bit rgb images \? thanks !
vax2 concordia ca \( , guo \) subject change font size system \? news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host vax2 concordia ca organization concordia university lines 10 hi 1024x768x256 mode , font sizes window menu , help window small change font font size windows \? computer 80486 dx 33 , video card ati could experts please email answer vax2 ca thanks advance guo concordia univ montreal , canada
hkuxa hku hk \( mok kam wah \) subject driver 2mb card nntp posting host hkuxa hku hk organization university hong kong x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 13 dear netters , friend brought card 2mb ram new driver card available ftp cites \? newest version \? interest driver 1024x768 hicolor 800x600 true color driver come card k w mok k w mok e mail hkuxa hku hk dept chem , university hong kong
tomh metrics com \( tom haapanen \) subject os 2 talk windows workgroups \? organization software metrics inc lines 14 'd like get system running os 2 2 0 ga talking network pcs running windows workgroups acting server would wonderful , client access would enough run wfw 's net utilities dos box \? way actually get os 2 talk wfw \? os 2 clients talk wfw \? confused , tom haapanen tomh metrics com software metrics inc waterloo , ont stick index fingers corners mouth pull 's corrado makes feel car , january '93
tomh metrics com \( tom haapanen \) subject os 2 talk windows workgroups \? organization software metrics inc lines 16 tomh metrics com \( tom haapanen \) writes run wfw 's net utilities dos box \? way actually get os 2 talk wfw \? os 2 clients talk wfw \? following article found several people say lan server clients talk wfw , , also true lan manager \? \( n't lan server lan manager share common roots \? \) confused , somewhat less \) tom haapanen tomh metrics com software metrics inc waterloo , ont stick index fingers corners mouth pull 's corrado makes feel car , january '93
cleveland freenet edu \( mike \) subject ms mouse newer 8 6 organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 11 reply jonas cz nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu hello , need microsoft mouse driver , newer 8 6 going dos window ms windows , must freeware version 7 00 tx mike `` ' ```` ' '' ' ''
kmembry viamar uucp \( kirk membry \) subject good autoexec bat config sys windows 3 1 reply rutgers ! viamar ! kmembry organization private system lines 16 datamark co nz thomas datamark co nz \( thomas beagle \) writes need load emm386 qemm , anything else many windows pcs 's useful still stuck running msdos based applications need lots low memory free otherwise need load himem sys let windows go straight extended memory 's thought , 's never used emm386 exe kirk membry age age industry rutgers ! viamar ! kmembry alexander rodchenko
gurgle netcom com \( pete gontier \) subject challenge microsoft supporters organization cellular distribution usa lines 15 bjgrier bnr ca \( brian grier \) writes gone long people ! get life n't converted anyone way thinking yet probably convert anyone let subject die quiet , though death keeps 'll start believing self righteousness capital offense 'll kill half net maybe n't bad idea pete gontier ec technology gurgle netcom com
mad se \( mattias \) subject procomm ! \? organization lulea university computer society lines 9 one remap special command keys procomm seems would like remap keys especially 2 , combinations anybody know plain dirty way \? \? \( cause people settle function keys , n't see limitation \) , mattias
paller fedunix org \( alan paller \) subject teacher windows nt \? organization fedunix open systems conference board washington c lines 11 searching one two instructors tutorials advanced windows programming nt anyone attended course good , would really appreciate recommendations please email directly paller fedunix org n't get see newsgroups often enough thanks advance help alan paller tutorials director
dmcgee uluhe soest hawaii edu \( mcgee \) subject find diamond speedstar 24x drivers \? organization school ocean earth science technology lines 4 cica indiana edu pc drivers current version 2 0 \?
cdc \( musician \) subject version unix 's vi editor 3 1 \? \? organization c c di milano lines 17 pete \( edu \) wrote subject line says looked looked , came empty handed pervert \? \? \? pervert ok vi cua powerful set commands one 26 separate clipboard \( one kind data like windows \) problem know commands \( keyboard shortcut \) quite fast pc keyboard usually use fingers digit use editor want leave keyboard use mouse every time need special function menu use arrow keys away usual position hands keyboard situation vi powerful i'm searching vi editor windows bye p sorry bad english
sasswb unx sas com \( scott bass \) subject creating batch file windows nt nntp posting host k2 unx sas com organization sas institute inc lines 69 sasswb k2 sasswb unx sas com \( scott bass \) writes 1 windows nt , alternative , fairly useless dos batch programming language \? os 2 , ibm introduced language alternative bat surely windows nt thing , right \? 2 , way escape cr lf bat file continue single command across multiple lines \? application exits system batch file batch file created fly site specific code stored within application currently designed , line length stored code output file \( bat file \) 80 characters , enough options must specified particular command would help tremendously n't redesign code kludge around lack true batch shell programming language rest deleted followup post let add i'm really windows windows nt user , please excuse ignorance however , i'm developer sas institute , one component application support ability submit \( sas \) batch job within interactive sas session user site enter site specific batch profile within product , specifying pathname sas executable , specifying site specific sas options , etc run time certain variables resolved , resolved file written external ascii file exit operating system run job , returning interactive session soon job submitted batch job runs concurrently interactive session currently designed , internal record length 80 characters , run batch job , command sas batch mode requires 80 characters til nt problem , since every job control shell language til nt \( eg mvs cms vms unix os2 \) way escape cr lf enter single command across multiple lines \( os 2 via language , standard os 2 \) gist , since application end users , within company , try develop process using native nt since first posting 've learned several third party companies provide alternative script languages windows windows nt i'm sure company licenses product would use alternative script language , ca n't develop assumption anything comes nt saw another post list \( subject something like vi available windows \? \) someone said vi , make , awk , ksh available microsoft toolkit product \? separate product part windows \? ksh would need could count nt sites one last question 've heard nt remote processing capabilities , e could shove batch job server machine run native nt commands rather network specific commands , would also help improve process comment commands , would appreciate thanks help , scott bass sas institute inc integrated systems , , sas campus drive , cary , nc 27513 sasswb k2 unx sas com \( 919 \) 677
wiseb colossus cs rpi edu \( bowden wise \) subject deriving class object owl organization rensselaer polytechnic institute computer science , troy ny lines 30 distribution comp nntp posting host colossus cs rpi edu trying define class derived object class may insert \( class provided container class library \) defined pure virtual functions object , still get error attempt allocate hashentry object cannot create instance abstract class hashentry anyone derived class object \? left \? virtual functions defined object virtual isa \( \) const return virtual \( \) const return hashentry virtual \( \) const return \( hwindow \) note hwindow defined hashentry virtual int \( const object far obj \) const return \( hashentry \) obj virtual void \( os \) const os hwindow \( void far \) hwindow n bowden wise computer science dept , rensselaer polytechnic inst , troy , ny 12180 internet wiseb cs rpi edu
leopard spud hyperion com \( \) subject questions dos external join command organization hyperion , mountain view , ca , usa lines 11 distribution na nntp posting host spud hyperion com summary looking information , good bad keywords pros \? cons \? bugs \? problems \? setting dos unix box ide scsi drive wondering use \( ms dos 5 0 \) join command like way sets things since wo n't stick c e \( crap \) dos enforces like would mimic mount points unix filesystems heard problems using , least older versions dos please tell ! leopard hyperion com n't work hyperion , live telephone \( 408 \) 737 com work \( 415 \) 324 unix sys admin
wiseb colossus cs rpi edu \( bowden wise \) subject deriving class object owl organization rensselaer polytechnic institute computer science , troy ny lines 22 distribution comp nntp posting host colossus cs rpi edu reply wiseb colossus cs rpi edu 's message 12 may 1993 18 47 10 gmt solved problem still understand happens ths way perhaps c gurus explain us ! reason define following class definition \( h file \) compiler thinks pure virtual functions defined placed two separate source file compiled , problem went away ideas happen \? functions defined class construct inline \? problem \? virtual int \( const object far obj \) const return \( hashentry \) obj virtual void \( os \) const os hwindow \( void far \) hwindow n bowden wise computer science dept , rensselaer polytechnic inst , troy , ny 12180 internet wiseb cs rpi edu
1341 compuserve com \( darla \) subject animated desktop organization utexas mail news gateway lines 46 nntp posting host cs utexas edu , upon getting animated desktop windows gift boyfriend , could n't wait install gotten advertisement put aside list 'i wants ' installing software , n't load part software would load even though install went seemingly well called problem asking twenty million different questions system concluded one systems software course 're willing give back waste time energy folks support line , although nice , extremely ignorant regarding workings windows 3 1 experience installation sb 16 , learned function windows dll files sending back desktop animator , decided fooling around different versions dll files 2 versions dll one dated 8 92 100k dated 1 93 smaller \( 1 93 smaller version one supplied desktop animator \) moved bigger , older version dll directory outside path \( reason , older dll windows directory newer windows system directory \) , animator 's editor loaded 2 applications package main application still n't load anyone ideas would occur suggestions trouble shooting \? darla portal darla shell portal com darla cup portal com aol aol com aol com darla genie l jj jj
ux1 cso uiuc edu \( george \) subject strange messages starting windows organization university illinois urbana champaign lines 50 distribution usa nntp posting host ux1 cso uiuc edu recently acquired gateway 2000 machine , starting windows , three copyright statements flash screen right ms logo disappears takes happen machines , wondering whether feature whether related several problems machine system gateway 2000 , 4dx 33 machine messages appear \( c \) copyright 1989 1992 western digital corporation rights reserved \( c \) copyright 1985 1992 congruent corporation rights reserved \( c \) copyright 1985 1992 microsoft corporation rights reserved autoexec bat file looks like echo prompt p g set mouse c c mouse path c c dos c windows c 123 c f apps f system f f public set temp c windows temp lh n 0x62 5 lh winpkt 0x60 0x62 lh ipx lh netx f login login win config sys file looks like device c windows himem sys dos high , umb device c windows emm386 exe noems x d000 stacks 9 , 256 files 50 buffers 30 shell c dos command com p e 1024 anyone know going \? help would much appreciated department urban regional planning e mail uiuc edu university illinois urbana champaign tel 217 244
jarthur claremont edu \( ted \) subject challenge microsoft supporters organization harvey mudd college , claremont , ca 91711 distribution usa lines 12 article 3hz netcom com timbol netcom com \( mike timbol \) writes anyway , give word , without naming sources , ibm paid companies write applications os 2 satisfied \? mike n't ms \? \( e , subsidize app development \) seem remember someone rpi received entire \( expensive , run nt \) machine develop nt free 's small fry ted
yfn ysu edu \( thomas smith \) subject hp deskjet 500c organization youngstown state youngstown free net lines 9 nntp posting host yfn ysu edu try using laser printer copier paper , works quite well cheaper paper thomas smith ii youngstown state university chemistry dept yfn ysu edu
microsoft com \( ken \) subject challenge microsoft supporters organization microsoft corp distribution usa lines 48 article sundaram msuinfo sundaram egr msu edu wrote jenk microsoft com \( jen kilmer \) writes much bs deleted brevity , point microsofties sell readers products \( would conflict ads philosophy usenet \) necessarily access info others certainly smacks ! remember poll quoted saying seen 95 users satisfied dos 6 0 \? care recall unbiased sample set \? post sure looked like fud coming microsoftie well , sure seemed like something level came reseller survey advocacy good spreading fud advocate favorite os unethical especially vested interest success os n't recall fud maybe example \? also get tired people assuming microsofties , like , members borg actions seem invite opinion never seen defensive people life moreover , many posts seem encourage , imho part , newsgroup attack oriented microsoft attacked anything ranging quality products , intelligence people , integrity business , etc anyone would get defensive attacked human beings well expect response claim employee might feel unwarranted leveled seriously speaking , shame ms techie employees get heat ms 's actions perpetrated management marketing sure talented etc doubts abilities , ethics marketing practices divya divya live long , die slow horrible death confucius wanted say
wiseb colossus cs rpi edu \( bowden wise \) subject displaying stream output window organization rensselaer polytechnic institute computer science , troy ny lines 11 distribution comp nntp posting host colossus cs rpi edu using owl want display output stream popup window way perhaps redirect window \? alternatively set separate stream supports output able display stream output control \? anyone ever done something like \? bowden wise computer science dept , rensselaer polytechnic inst , troy , ny 12180 internet wiseb cs rpi edu
timbol netcom com \( mike timbol \) subject challenge microsoft supporters organization netcom online communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) distribution usa lines 25 article news claremont edu jarthur claremont edu \( ted \) writes article netcom com timbol netcom com \( mike timbol \) writes anyway , give word , without naming sources , ibm paid companies write applications os 2 satisfied \? really query mean paid \? implying helped offset development costs , paid entire cost producing product mean paid companies developed applications \( e 'll give x million dollars port application os 2 \) suppose company question could use x million dollars whatever want would like post figures \? \( ms well , suppose \) ted , 'd rather first , n't exact figures , n't want disclose know however , say jim francis microsoft posted figure 26 million \( payment ibm borland \) 's somewhere range 've heard mike
jenk microsoft com \( jen kilmer \) subject challenge microsoft supporters organization microsoft corporation distribution usa lines 68 article sundaram msuinfo sundaram egr msu edu \( divya sundaram \) writes jenk microsoft com \( jen kilmer \) writes much bs deleted brevity , point microsofties sell readers products \( would conflict ads philosophy usenet \) necessarily access info others certainly smacks ! remember poll quoted saying seen 95 users satisfied dos 6 0 \? 93 94 , actually another msdos team member posted note people msdos team would necessarily know , care recall unbiased sample set \? heard numbers wondered got \( worked product support knowing typical support caller little positive say product , figured n't \) wandered marketing folks asked told survey registered users posted net people asked 93 figure came post sure looked like fud coming microsoftie well , sure seemed like something level hmm figured , chuck posted numbers , include came \? \( also find interesting info fear , uncertainty doubt \) advocacy good spreading fud advocate favorite os unethical especially vested interest success os \? \? \? \? think 've got confused someone else n't pretend msdos provides people need , oses \( including unix os 2 \) n't provide useful necessary features also n't push people use msdos even posted comp os msdos misc suggest waiting installing new os , esp trouble \( support always overloaded release , unless sales total bomb \) also get tired people assuming microsofties , like , members borg actions seem invite opinion never seen defensive people life ai n't saying us n't get defensive sometimes really think msdos gets respect within microsoft outside \? mean n't cut dough cookie cutter n't think alike yeah , inside info msdos n't mean everyone else \) seriously speaking , shame ms techie employees get heat ms 's actions perpetrated management marketing sure talented etc doubts abilities , ethics marketing practices jen include stdisclaimer jenk microsoft com msdos testing
jenk microsoft com \( jen kilmer \) subject challenge microsoft supporters organization microsoft corporation distribution usa lines 21 article 1993may12 microsoft com microsoft com \( ken \) writes article sundaram msuinfo sundaram egr msu edu wrote certainly smacks ! remember poll quoted saying seen 95 users satisfied dos 6 0 \? care recall unbiased sample set \? post sure looked like fud coming microsoftie well , sure seemed like something level came reseller survey posted came survey registered users , double checked friendly neighborhood marketing type found actually two surveys one randomly selected resellers , one randomly selected users 6 upgrade registered user database surveys showed 93 positive rating jen include stdisclaimer jenk microsoft com msdos testing
cleveland freenet edu \( christopher leigh putnam \) subject hot key screen saver \? organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 15 reply cleveland freenet edu \( christopher leigh putnam \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu hot key windows 3 1 screen saver utility \? , easy way create one \? reason need one dad 's company anal retentive leaving computer information accessed employees allowed walk away computer screen saver kicks \( terribly secure \) also , system manager wo n't let software added another program zip cica different screen saver thanks help chris putnam \( still blue devils lover heart \) baritone star '93 \? \? \?
rmohns vax clarku edu subject challenge microsoft supporters organization clark university lines 33 previous article , jenk microsoft com \( jen kilmer \) wrote posted came survey registered users , double checked friendly neighborhood marketing type found actually two surveys one randomly selected resellers , one randomly selected users 6 upgrade registered user database surveys showed 93 positive rating jen include stdisclaimer jenk microsoft com msdos testing translates 7 satisfied n't think 's awkward recursive deletion 's bugging people , certainly n't nice windows interfaces new dos accessories \( , , \) far 've noticed , 's doublespace crashes frankly , fairly high rates doublespace crashes 've heard surprises ! figured since os presumably aware doublespace , less likely crash \( unlike stacker , fools os gullible anyway \) dos 6 aware doublespace n't \? anyway , good job dos 5 , dos 6 good new users beware doublespace ! rob rmohns vax clarku edu rob mohns annoy rush limbaugh think
subject help c doelle p26 f3333 n106 z1 fidonet org \( c doelle \) lines 13 hello ! understanding true type fonts windows loaded prior starting windows makes getting windows quite slow hundreds first , correct thinking secondly , case get windows ignore boot maybe make something like pif file load enter applications need fonts \? ideas \? chris origin chris doelle f3333 n106 z1 fidonet org \( 1 106 3333 26 \)
dil admin mhs unc edu \( dave laudicina \) subject challenge microsoft supporters nntp posting host dil adp unc edu organization unc office information technology lines 13 part , newsgroup attack oriented microsoft attacked anything ranging quality products , intelligence people , integrity business , etc anyone would get defensive attacked human beings well expect response claim employee might feel unwarranted leveled ignore attacks look sales numbers ms stock price need gratification keep great job done past thx dave l
donald cc utexas edu subject suggestions com redirection needed ! organization university texas austin lines 11 distribution usa nntp posting host donald cc utexas edu summary help wfwg help ! trying find software allow com port redirection windows workgroups anyone make suggestion something would really hate write driver serial port would support network , next step thanks advance
cas sbctri sbc com \( chris \) subject mouse systems driver mouse control dos window organization southwestern bell technology resources lines 12 nntp posting host sbc com anyone know animal mouse systems trackball would like driver device would allow use mouse within dos window way microsoft 's mouse driver works thanks , chris chris represent company way , shape form forum opinions comments represent opinions company opinions comments even merit consideration kind
prism gatech edu \( glynn , mike \) subject prevent ctl alt del windows organization georgia institute technology lines 12 would like prevent windows users using ctl alt del within windows know must way could anyone point right direction \? thanks advance , mike glynn mike glynn business gatech edu mike glynn stolen sig follows hot someone completely internet prism gatech edu baffled people cars !
ps unizh ch \( \) subject challenge microsoft supporters organization university zurich , switzerland x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 distribution usa lines 10 mike dahmus \( mike schleppo bocaraton ibm com \) wrote yes , lot os 2 2 0 common os 2 1 x written guys however , many things made os 2 2 0 much successful \( win os 2 , workplace shell \) previous versions ibm work win os 2 ibm work \? make laugh writing couple thousands lines code make windows compatible dpmi implementation make rest windows ibm work serge p
kenton shaver andrew cmu edu subject challenge microsoft supporters organization sponsored account , systems group 82 , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 50 distribution usa uceng uc edu nntp posting host po3 andrew cmu edu reply uceng uc edu bferrell cicada occ uc edu \( brett ferrell \) writes article 1993may13 microsoft com jenk microsoft com \( jen er \) writes found actually two surveys one randomly selected resellers , one randomly selected users 6 upgrade registered user database surveys showed 93 positive rating jen jd power associates survey , would like anonymous ftp site pick sucker believes ms released survey results ms product ok assume results survey , whatever , 100 honest results indicated extreme product , ms going tell us stop buying ms dos 6 0 \? \) sure would fair say relatively people decided purchase 6 would inclined like us love os 2 , people know \( less \) expect disappointed mean , nice know people bought happy \( important ms know \) n't dispute accuracy would hate see people extrapolate population dos 6 next computer revolution well , statistics shut people add microscopic weight arguments said , seen going believe chrysler tell us , chrysler conducted survey theory certain people convinced point maintained long enough , true , focus company \? information money information technology , , expedient toward ends bill gates drop college \? could n't afford time \? \( wsj says \) could n't wait use knew go make money \? bill gate 's answer question would highly interesting await ca n't stomach bill declaring visionary using every available opportunity build cult around ms sell dos windoze main stays kenton cmu edu os 2 fixes broken windows
gurgle netcom com \( pete gontier \) subject challenge microsoft supporters organization cellular lines 10 ucsd edu \( mike fischer \) writes 're missing main point capitalism first place ! competition excellence yes , concerned imagining capitalist theorists software mind wrote grand main point capitalism non productive pete gontier ec technology gurgle netcom com
mr slate cis udel edu \( \) subject disk image question organization university delaware , newark lines 17 distribution usa nntp posting host mr slate cis udel edu hello , recently noticed directory named disk n't notice wonder installing application image disk created , win3 1 automatically created backup files could n't find documentation utility image disk taking lot disk space anybody know something people installed win3 1 backup mechanism \? thanks , 21 dr 7 w \( 302 \) 831 cis udel edu newark , de h \( 302 \) 453
nathan gregory psilink com subject upgrading windows nt nntp posting host 127 0 0 1 organization performance systems int'l x mailer psilink dos \( 3 3 \) lines 65 'd like appeal net 's nt wizards bit advice first general description machine follows motherboard 33 mhz opti chipset , 20 meg memory , cache \( soon hope drop dx2 chip \) fahrenheit 1280 video \( 1 meg , 1024x768x256 \) spectrum 16 sound board primary disk connor caching ide controller secondary disk conner slave controller disk fujitsu \? \? \? 650 meg esdi controller planned future disks include scsi hd cd rom pas16 scsi port tape drive colorado jumbo 250 floppy controller future tape drive may dat scsi interface hardware includes modem fax , serial ports , board \( ugly dos software drives latter \) applications used include normal windows stuff \( excel , word , quicken turbo pascal windows \) important stuff audio work environment includes turtle beach wave windows , mcs stereo , misc stuff around audio files also use stacker primary drive , hp \( wife 's use , wo n't let get rid ! \) , product called infinite disk chili pepper software hierarchical storage management seldom used offline files plan upgrade nt , becomes released product tempted become beta user early , n't time mess around hassles beta software expect buy , tear shrink wrap , use without hassle \( know , unrealistic , hope ca n't , , work \) advice want concerns state nt regarding device drivers , hardware specific stuff general smoothly expect upgrade go \? expect support stuff , still need scramble around downloading drivers \( pas \? , orchid \? , colorado \? \) bbs , etc steps take ensure installation goes smoothly note want nuke dos totally system i'm allergic command lines ! plan run pure nt system also , nt communicate workgroups lan \? stacker \? currently stacker first disk drive without stacker , infinite disk product , great difficulty fitting everything system \( 's cramped \) realize stacker incompatible nt , nt version \? nt support compression la dos 6 \? know infinite disk incompatible nt , offer \( anybody else \) comparable product nt cost \? \( perhaps need ask chili pepper question \) live without id , 'd rather nt run dos apps \( board mainly \) without dos system \? need keep around \? feedback advice \( including forget nt good reasons \) much appreciated significant reason moving nt need better multitasking environment windows \( among reasons , wave locks machine hours hours dsp processing large audio files \) , want better lan support \( internet access , etc \) maybe better solutions nt , would appreciate hearing \( os 2 \? 's 's status days \? \) pls respond email interest 'll summarize net thanks , nathan gregory psilink com
cad gmeds com \( dominic \) subject prevent ctl alt del windows organization eds cadillac lines 24 nntp posting host cad gmeds com article hydra gatech edu prism gatech edu \( glynn , mike \) writes would like prevent windows users using ctl alt del within windows know must way could anyone point right direction \? thanks advance , mike glynn sure want \? win app locks reason , ctrl alt del may way kill app get back windows granted n't work often come handy occasion consider pretty carefully disabled keystroke thought 'd like talk hours go ahead spin doctors dominic electronic data systems \( eds \) email cad gmeds com note views opinions expressed herein mine , reflect eds
microsoft com \( phil \) subject challenge microsoft supporters organization microsoft corporation distribution usa lines 32 article sundaram msuinfo sundaram egr msu edu \( divya sundaram \) writes jenk microsoft com \( jen kilmer \) writes much bs deleted brevity , point microsofties sell readers products \( would conflict ads philosophy usenet \) necessarily access info others certainly smacks ! remember poll quoted saying seen 95 users satisfied dos 6 0 \? care recall unbiased sample set \? post sure looked like fud coming microsoftie well , sure seemed like something level recall , jen said right front sample set derived 's fud \? advocacy good spreading fud advocate favorite os unethical especially vested interest success os mean flame ever see \? face advocacy groups kind things 're preaching created first place filter crap newsgroups might contain real information phil nothing posted way , shape , form official microsoft policy opinion , represented quoted forum microsoft com
nntp posting host fac csr byu edu lines 33 ecktons ucs byu edu \( sean eckton \) subject mouse jumpy \? \( ms mouse \) organization fine arts communications brigham young university distribution world original post subject mouse jumpy \? \( ms mouse \) microsoft serial mouse using mouse com 8 00 \( using 8 20 think , switched 8 00 see better \) vertical motion nice smooth , horizontal motion bad sometimes ca n't click something mouse jumps around moving mouse right relatively uniform motion mouse move smoothly bit , jump right , move smoothly bit jump \( maybe time left 5 inch ! \) crazy ! never much trouble mouse anyone solutions \? aha , think found problem n't dirt ! another guy using different kind mouse using video driver \( default vga windows \) s3 localbus card like loaded s3 video driver windows , mouse became jumpy seems like s3 driver ! newer one version 1 4 would solve problem \? really bad use keyboard instead sometimes ! s3 zip cica version 1 4 \( version came card \) sean eckton computer support representative college fine arts communications 406 hfac brigham young university provo , ut 84602 \( 801 \) 378 3292 hfac csr byu edu ecktons ucs byu edu
roger de roger glenn uwaterloo ca subject good autoexec bat config sys windows 3 1 x xxmessage id uwaterloo ca x xxdate thu , 13 may 93 15 34 36 gmt organization earth observations lab x useragent nuntius v1 1 lines 34 article acsu buffalo edu kan mongwa , mongwa acsu buffalo edu writes article acsu buffalo edu kan mongwa , mongwa acsu buffalo edu writes load smartdrv sys using stacker \( applies windows \) replied \? \? \? mean , use smartdrv exe autoexec bat \? \? \? roger answered quoting windows setup txt section using stacker best performance , use smartdrive cache compressed drive need cache uncompressed drive check ! think important clear first reply gave impression use smartdrive stacker correct caching compressed drive however , understand , cache uncompressed drive thus compressed disk c , c probably drive stacker c compressed disk \( large file \) uncompressed disk attempt stack fact , win 3 1 smartdrv exe , seems smart enough automatically default stacking , b drives roger
nickel ucs indiana edu \( independent distributor computer seller \) subject window 3 1 restart computer \? nntp posting host nickel ucs indiana edu organization indiana university would like know cause window 3 1 problem every time lines 22 files 30 buffers 30 device c windows himem sys device c windows smartdrv exe double buffer stacks 9 , 256 also autoexec bat c c windows smartdrv exe l rem 5 0 setup path c c dos c windows c fax c mouse c set temp c windows temp mouse 2 rem c dos share seen problem \? please help thanks
ivory crd ge com \( john ivory \) subject make rle file nntp posting host 144 219 40 1 organization tower concepts lines 11 i'm told replace colorful windows logo appears windows invokes graphic choosing image must format 've got gif 's , pic 's , jpg 's , tif 's , etc everything rle 's ! 's best route converting things \? program download , \? anybody else done , steps available \? thanks e mail ivory syr ge com ivory tower com would prefered
tom carter carter photon cem msu edu subject origin working model new version uploaded cica organization department chemistry , michigan state university lines 20 distribution world reply carter photon cem msu edu nntp posting host cem msu edu 've recently uploaded cica current \( v2 8 \) version working model origin , scientific technical 2d 3d graphics data analysis package windows 3 x working model 2d puts promo message , largely identical full version saving origin files disabled , save ascii data sets produced origin also says expiration date sept 1 , 1993 try may like , ! 's currently pub pc win3 uploads origin zip include std disclaimer tom carter carter photon cem msu edu michigan state university carter bitnet chemistry department
packard aplcomm jhuapl edu \( mike packard \) subject upgrading windows nt lines 11 organization jhu apl x newsreader ftpnuz \( dos \) v1 0 lines 7 article 3 psilink com nathan gregory psilink com says 'd like appeal net 's nt wizards bit advice sounds like good question , hardware specific , general please respond via news e mail probably alot people wanting read replies , including mike packard aplcomm jhuapl edu
convex com \( benjamin lee \) subject challenge microsoft supporters nntp posting host dhostwo convex com organization engineering , convex computer corp , richardson , tx , usa x disclaimer message written user convex computer corp opinions expressed user necessarily convex lines 15 article dil admin mhs unc edu \( dave laudicina \) writes ignore attacks look sales numbers ms stock price need gratification keep great job done past thx dave l part usually gets set make money , usually things considered debated purpose life willing look stock price sales numbers gratification , usually 'll end japanese \( whoever competitive \) business e short sighted imo , irresponsible , narrow minded selfish henceforth , ignoring attack right approach matter fact , happen believe willingness debate greatest assets society sales number stock price short term result , cause
djw wang com \( david weinstein \) subject ms test help question newsgroup \? organization wang labs , lowell , usa lines 15 hi would like know seperate newgroup discussion ms test quality assurance issues , , newsgroup would appropriate one use compuserve microsoft bbs people call help \? thanks please email response djw wang com helmet rules ! 's doc \? djw wang com plan ! clue \)
sim es com \( nevin pratt \) subject eps clip art 4sale organization e lines 47 distribution world reply sim es com nntp posting host sim es com less 1 2 mailorder price ! three libraries , cd , cost two thousand dollars mail order genuine , high quality eps vector graphics \( scans silly eps wrapper ! \) 1 totem graphics color eps library \( 1400 color eps images \) costs thousand bucks mailorder rate clip art high quality \( much better dynamic graphics clip art , clip art , etc , opinion \) , rate 3g library c r library higher totem 's art color whereas 's b w 's best color library , opinion 2 c r graphics library \( n't counted many images , purchase library 48 floppies , give idea size \) costs 4 hundred bucks mailorder rate clip art high quality , 's b w 3 3g graphics library \( popular mac mags \) costs 4 hundred bucks mailorder rate clip art high quality \( got awards one major mac mags , forgot \) images color , b w 's worth , three cd 's saved multiple file formats readable mac 's pc 's additionally , totem 's mount native next also , although next could easily mount either mac pc filesystems 've personally tested cd 's three machines \( 've owned three machines , although sold next months ago \) also , opinion , 3g c r libraries best business \( 've seen lots \) also , totem 's , opinion , best color library around , although like 3g 's color art better want 850 everything ship certified check c , well visa mc charge pay visa mc , 'll ship pre paid continental u ship c , buyer pays c fee reason selling longer dtp business please respond via email telephone , rarely check news groups nevin email sim es com voice \( h \) 265 \( w \) 582
tal michael wtm utrc utc com subject multiple printers print manager keywords print manager nntp posting host lestat organization utrc lines 34 article lance actrix gen nz lance actrix gen nz \( lance \) writes print manager deal multiple printers \? 're planning print two printers application one real printer , fax program print manager deal jobs one time , feed printers \? please research carefully fax modem behaves like printer local machine , n't guarantee functionality local machine fax software printing remotely installed fax card tried workgroups fax software n't like could winfax 's n't think lot special hardware interaction takes place internally case , fax manager program merely intercepts print job 's directory , print manager 's spool directory software , appears job printed print manager plays part handling actual process pardon 've incorrectly assumed truely network aware fax modem likely required , lot weird setup good luck
bourne ctron \( paul g \) subject diamond stealth 24 organization sun microsystems , inc lines 14 distribution world reply bourne ctron nntp posting host bourne ctron com article charm magnus acs ohio state edu , magnus acs ohio state edu \( vincent \) writes recently purchased diamond stealth 24 isa graphics accelerator card \( based upon positive review steve gibson infoworld \) although 's fast , find windows drivers extremely buggy despite implementing diamond technical support suggestions anyone else experience card \? feedback appreciated lot problems belive latest drivers occasions fire windows works great ever find newer drivers would appreciate pointer location paul
jumbo read tasc com \( james mcnamara \) subject 2 monitors windows article jumbo organization tasc lines 15 nntp posting host jumbo read tasc com x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 \( zen et tudelft nl \) wrote julio uucp \( julio \) writes anyone know whether possible 2 monitors working microsoft windows 3 1 \? multi vision 550 nec may work using vga hercules card one system , using two vga cards one system never work believe two 8514 \( 8514 \? \) may used tandem one system one exception vga mono dual monitor combo heard anybody done \? jim mc james mcnamara , member technical staff , tasc 55 brook drive reading , 617 942
jls antares \( jon sweet \) subject dll organization nasa larc lines 25 distribution world reply jls antares nntp posting host antares larc nasa gov marion kent edu \( lou marion \) writes someone point direction file thanks lou marion dept geography kent state university marion kent edu sure ! oh ! sorry rec humor ! try cica pub pc win3 get index see opinions expressed nobody else wants ! jls antares larc nasa gov jon l sweet
dil admin mhs unc edu \( dave laudicina \) subject dll nntp posting host dil adp unc edu organization unc office information technology lines 6 someone point direction file thanks come visual basic new version dll thx dave l
cs king ac uk \( matthew \) subject adding icons progman exe organization kingston university , kingston upon lines 22 nntp posting host ceres kingston ac uk x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 florian \( floppy link escape de \) wrote 09 05 93 , 14 48 hi ! anybody write add icons \( build \) progman exe \? i'm grateful every clue ! thanx nice day ! one way use program called 's shareware ca n't get mail , 'll post matthew kingston university primitive race , cs kingston ac uk computer science shall
gomez intel com \( ron hudson \) subject solution multi setups standalone easy ! ! ! nntp posting host gomez organization software technology , intel corp , santa clara , ca x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 16 peter goudswaard \( goudswaa fraser sfu ca \) wrote setup deleted finally , order run specific version windows , must simply change path include c specific configuration path , e g c could get fancy use batch files , environment variables , system stuff delete happen running new msdos 6 , could use multi setup provide menu menu choice person using machine power , select name , menu use personal sections config sys autoexec bat thus setting path , running windows copy ! ron temp intel , views
dil admin mhs unc edu \( dave laudicina \) subject challenge microsoft supporters nntp posting host dil adp unc edu organization unc office information technology lines 26 part usually gets set make money , usually things considered debated purpose life like stock prices sales particular product measures success measures short term long term success think ms case good measure long term success original post mentioned seems group large number people attacking ms willing accept anything positive ms trying make point attacks emphasized look sales ms products definitely tell different story also think large number attackers call highly technical look around real world people n't want grep auck ls l want push buttons get job done reasonably priced piece hardware need computer smart guy load configure etc etc like ms multitudes business applications exist run windows well running 150 pc 's loaded complete suite mostly ms windows applications administrative business function novell network running software server job quite well would pick windows repeat ms keep great job flame thx dave l
ajs8 kimbark uchicago edu \( adam jeremy \) subject 32 bit access reply ajs8 midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 5 gateway 4dx2 66v anyone know csn \( ca n't \) 32 bit access \?
orl mmc com \( william williamson , 6 \) subject layout program \? reply orl mmc com organization martin marietta orlando lines 19 article chemical watstar uwaterloo ca , gmills chemical watstar uwaterloo ca \( phil trodwell \) writes hi , i'm desperately seeking \( preferably shareware \) program assist architectural layout house something like exist basic cad programs \? please e mail n't always get news expires thanks advance , phil trodwell best 've seen runs windows 's shareware however gary williamson aka polaris orl mmc com orlando , florida
z shererrg ccsvax sfasu edu subject head head win os 2 organization stephen f austin state university lines 15 hearing endless debate \( read name calling \) os better , dos windows os 2 finally enought play couple different operating systems , decided put two products head head test , many fellow suggested , however , desire whatsoever use version os 2 wont really says \( e run windows apps \) os 2 2 0 2 1 run windows apps 386 mode , something larger windows apps require , os 2 2 2 , supposed beta test , supposed heard os 2 2 2 beta available via ftp , wondering anyone knew obtain copy would appreciate information , would like , , establish best os needs robbie z shererrg sfasu edu
carlf panix com \( carl fink \) subject odd mouse behavior organization panix public access unix , nyc lines 18 hi one coworkers odd problem mouse works fine dos applications , load c prompt windows , mouse pointer present , move even load dos app windows , mouse n't work computer zeos 386sx 20 w diamond speedstar vga running ms dos 5 0 windows 3 1 mouse driver microsoft 's 8 2 've tried switching mouse com1 com2 , 've tried different mouse , 've reinstalled mouse drv , ca n't get blamed thing work difference system mine \( mouse works perfectly \) expansion card additional parallel serial port could cause problem \? thanks advance help carl fink carlf panix com c \( genie \) ca n't laugh , bet everyone else ed johnston
louray seas gwu edu \( michael panayiotakis \) subject hot key screen saver \? organization george washington university lines 6 well , renaming screensavers \( scr \) exe , running , , \( n't tried changing win ini , effect \) shows setup dialog box , n't enable saver mickey
jls atg com \( jerome schneider \) reply jls atg com distribution world subject questions dos external join command organization aspen technology group x mailer 2 1 modified lines 66 article spud hyperion com , author writes setting dos unix box ide scsi drive wondering use \( ms dos 5 0 \) join command like way sets things since wo n't stick c e \( crap \) dos enforces like would mimic mount points unix filesystems heard problems using , least older versions dos please tell ! using join command many years , mostly good success unix style file mounts hear lots people cursing join confuse dos append command \( truely hack \) , n't believe also hear people saying microsoft recommends use join , microsoft 's windows 4 workgroups resource toolkit , following appears join , ms dos utility , works fine windows workgroups 3 1 change state joined drives windows workgroups 3 1 session includes adding removing joined drives within windows workgroups recommend use join running windows setup windows workgroups 3 1 within caveat , join appears valid windows however , found couple applications n't deal well filesystems mounted using join particular , worst offender word windows 2 0x gets confused edit try save file joined drive wants create saved file nnnnn tmp current dir , delete old file rename nnnnn tmp file doc file unfortunately , wfw usually writes nnnnn tmp file idiotic place current directory \( often root dir joined filesystem , always \) , deleting original doc file , ca n't find nnnnn tmp file rename unless search disk systems , document gone also found subtle problems using mks toolkit dos box joined filesystems present used join c temp 4meg ramdisk , mks sometimes gets confused ls c temp dir , misses files temp dir \( difficult reproduce , goes away totally join used \) think windows problem , rather mks 's , since works ok raw dos , would suggest use join , aware may robust would like would n't real great mount network drives \( e z \) main file tree , rather darned drive letters \? unfortunately , join wo n't let talk net simple patch let join work network drives , n't remember source 's bad join command better implemented , since would avoid using stupid drive letters realize meant casual , even ignorant users , mounting drives one file tree might confusing , looks like ms going carry windows nt \( another os meant casual , even users ! \) 's old family system baggage , maybe ms needs recovery group get life \( jerome \( jerry \) schneider domain jls atg com aspen technology group uucp uunet ! csn ! ! jls po box 673 , ft collins , co voice \( 303 \) 484
skorpio usask ca \( john \) subject playing midi music ati stereo f x cd sound card organization university saskatchewan , saskatoon , canada lines 30 nntp posting host skorpio usask ca running windows 3 1 386 enhanced mode sound card ati stereo f x cd sound card claims adlib soundblaster compatibility using windows , play midi files came sound card however , ca n't play midi files belong midi editor ftp 'd cica also ca n't play midi files generate \( also cica \) try play files , dialog box pops saying music may play right , asking wish disable message future normal , something set wrong \? would really like able write music computer play also ftp 'd game windows \( cica \) music wo n't play either get dialog box midi ati ext midi , ati midi , vanilla tried using three help , suggestions , shoulders cry , etc would appreciated much john p john cs usask ca
knut tts lth se \( \) subject hot key switching program manager \? organization communication systems , lund institute technology , sweden lines 10 win 3 1 , one may assign hot keys program items within program manager program manager \? one already , way assign one \? regards , email knut tts lth se dept communication systems ! uunet ! tts lth se ! knut lund institute technology , sweden fax 46 46
subject challenge microsoft supporters thomas datamark co nz \( thomas beagle \) organization datamark international ltd lines 22 article 1993may14 klaava helsinki fi jliukkon klaava helsinki fi \( juha matti liukkonen \) writes let pose question many ms dos users access net , would probably find feature useful , \? ie , suggestion implies microsoft relying shareware pd products fill gaps dos misunderstand statement \? shareware available net , magazines , distributors , clubs , friends , bulletin boards n't think people problems getting hold fill gaps dos \? 's need many people dos 5 provides services need run windows top btw , windows must operating system provides disk operating system dos ca n't access \( nfs \) \) thomas beagle thomas datamark co nz work 64 4 233 8186 technical writer thomas welly gen nz home 64 4 499 3832 , wellington , nz long ears make good handles \( \) \( \)
bjgrier bnr ca \( brian grier \) subject challenge microsoft supporters nntp posting host 131 253 206 80 organization bell northern research lines 34 lots stuff deleted felt like ms bashing definitely lost humor value think people posting forgetting users ms products even know internet , unix unfriendly place bizzare abreviations replace rather comfortable abreviations know abreviations subtle differences different vendors pc users tend customize windowing setup , much command line computer users world ms product symbolize quality ms made life easier , productive quality care innovative things ms done , make life computer one heck lot easier may know better computer users world change perception face unix come decent gui available variations unix catch mainstream computer users net mainstream computer users brian disclaimer opinions expressed mine bnr brian , \( st tt user developer \) wanted computer play games bell northern research 'd buy amiga however research triangle park , nc real work please get lost !
unixg ubc ca \( michael \) subject winfax files ascii format \? organization university british columbia lines 28 nntp posting host unixg ubc ca zhao nmsu edu zhao nmsu edu \( z zhao \) writes currently , using winfax software receive send fax pcs works pretty well problem received files bit map format , take lots hd space told programs pattern recognition raster characters fax files translate ascii code , store file ascii format would like tell \( 1 \) whether software package translation \? \( 2 \) one , find \? \( 3 \) software package public domain \? version winfax \? newest version \( 3 0 \) ocr \( optical character recognition \) built means take fax \( ie , letter \) convert ascii one edit document w typing however , found ocr comes packaged winfax work well omnipage professional \( also software \) , , winfax ver 3 0 looking good luck ! regards ,
ccastco prism gatech edu \( costas malamas \) subject windows 3 1 vs communication distribution usa organization georgia institute technology lines 29 article lee seas ucla edu victorf wright seas ucla edu \( victor friedman \) writes anybody tell exactly windows 3 1 com ports \? \? \? ca n't run single communication program windows \? procomm , , neither respond modem commands connection finally established , although i'm still able manage \( victorf seas ucla edu \) one problems w win 3 1 personally run telix 3 2 dos windows fine \( 've waiting win version \) \) , admit exception rule tried installing various dos comm progs machines , w big problems stuff lookout 1 \) always run prog thru pif , never calling exe , 2 \) pif always toggle lock application memory actually something ms points readme wri file , especially critical downloading 3 \) go ctrl panel 386 enh check com ports help u w debugging thing 's 4 \) check u running mouse com port 5 \) check com port addresses bios setup ctrl panel ports \( setup \? \) advanced might help u yu still problems , get 100 buy procomm win , \) hope helps somehow costas malamas georgia institute technology oit ua oit n't pay enough share opinions internet ccastco prism gatech edu
jagrant emr1 emr ca \( john grant \) subject head head win os 2 organization energy , mines , resources , ottawa lines 32 article 1993may15 4755 ccsvax sfasu edu z shererrg ccsvax sfasu edu writes hearing endless debate \( read name calling \) os better , dos windows os 2 finally enought play couple different operating systems , decided put two products head head test , many fellow suggested , however , desire whatsoever use version os 2 wont really says \( e run windows apps \) os 2 2 0 2 1 run windows apps 386 mode , something larger windows apps require , os 2 2 2 , supposed beta test , supposed heard os 2 2 2 beta available via ftp , wondering anyone knew obtain copy would appreciate information , would like , , establish best os needs n't think question os 2 x x run windows apps \? important question subsequent os 2 versions continue run apps subsequent windows versions future \? keep \? future os 2 3 0 run windows 4 apps \? complex sign things come fall , believe ibm longer rights view microsoft code , way maintain sort compatibility reverse engineer would want reverse engineer application \? john grant jagrant emr1 emr ca airborne geophysics geological survey canada , ottawa
bferrell cicada occ uc edu \( brett ferrell \) subject challenge microsoft supporters nntp posting host cicada occ uc edu organization university cincinnati lines 11 article igc feenix metronet com jack feenix metronet com \( jack hudler \) writes still impact ito 's ibm , 's left employee base ! suspect 'll see 2 1 1st quarter 94 boy going look silly couple weeks brett sherron ferrell email bferrell uceng uc edu u cincy catch cats college engineering
xenon stanford edu \( eugene kuo \) subject microsoft bbs number \? organization computer science department , stanford university distribution na lines 8 hi , anyone tell microsoft bbs number \? tried one given dos 6 upgrade manual number never answered call thanks , please email
goudswaa fraser sfu ca \( peter goudswaard \) subject solution multi setups standalone easy ! ! ! organization simon fraser university , burnaby , b c , canada lines 31 gomez intel com \( ron hudson \) writes peter goudswaard \( goudswaa fraser sfu ca \) wrote setup deleted finally , order run specific version windows , must simply change path include c specific configuration path , e g c could get fancy use batch files , environment variables , system stuff delete happen running new msdos 6 , could use multi setup provide menu menu choice person using machine power , select name , menu use personal sections config sys autoexec bat thus setting path , running windows copy ! ron excellent suggestion , ron comment dos 6 , decide install windows standalone configuration completely , 1 directory hard drive , use dos 6 jump specific copy user , could saving many megs disk space use setup n technique ! ! peter goudswaard goudswaa sfu ca \( preferred \) pgoudswa cln etc bc ca pgoudswa cue bc ca 's gift like present goudswaard 's observation
nntp posting host fac csr byu edu lines 28 ecktons ucs byu edu \( sean eckton \) subject s3 card problems keywords s3 , local bus , microsoft mouse organization fine arts communications brigham young university posted message time ago asking mouse jumpy well , think know , n't anything mouse seems video driver ! 's think weeks ago helped guy install driver s3 video card windows using normal windows default vga driver n't kind mouse \( mine microsoft serial brand serial mouse \) mouse worked fine installed s3 \( v1 4 \) driver system , mouse became really jumpy ! anything \? need high resolution since display lots stuff screen \( ami pro , pegasus mail windows , wp office 4 0 sorry , ! , alot \) noticed s3 drivers ftp cica , version already help \( already tried ! \) sean eckton computer support representative college fine arts communications 406 hfac brigham young university provo , ut 84602 \( 801 \) 378 3292 hfac csr byu edu ecktons ucs byu edu
frank \( frank \) subject hot key screen saver \? organization posting front end conference v 92 07 22 1 50 \( running ms windows \) lines 13 article 1993may15 seas gwu edu , louray seas gwu edu \( michael panayiotakis \) writes well , renaming screensavers \( scr \) exe , running , , \( n't tried changing win ini , effect \) shows setup dialog box , n't enable saver mickey start renamed saver vid option frank
jack feenix metronet com \( jack hudler \) subject challenge microsoft supporters organization tx metronet communications services , dallas tx lines 11 article 1993may14 klaava helsinki fi jliukkon klaava helsinki fi \( juha matti liukkonen \) writes let pose question many ms dos users access net , would probably find feature useful , \? ie , suggestion implies microsoft relying shareware pd products fill gaps dos misunderstand statement \? 's called free system suggests wish enhance dos , , sell , give away microsoft ca n't everything everyone ! period !
jack feenix metronet com \( jack hudler \) subject challenge microsoft supporters organization tx metronet communications services , dallas tx lines 8 article uceng uc edu bferrell cicada occ uc edu \( brett ferrell \) writes article igc feenix metronet com jack feenix metronet com \( jack hudler \) writes still impact ito 's ibm , 's left employee base ! suspect 'll see 2 1 1st quarter 94 boy going look silly couple weeks perhaps \)
vision auc dk \( hans f e s8 \) subject head head win os 2 reply z shererrg ccsvax sfasu edu 's message 15 may 93 03 02 10 cst organization laboratory image analysis , university lines 35 article 1993may15 4755 ccsvax sfasu edu z shererrg ccsvax sfasu edu writes hearing endless debate \( read name calling \) os better , dos windows os 2 finally enought play couple different operating systems , decided put two products head head test , many fellow suggested , however , desire whatsoever use version os 2 wont really says \( e run windows apps \) os 2 2 0 2 1 run windows apps 386 mode , something larger windows apps require , os 2 2 2 , supposed beta test , supposed heard os 2 2 2 beta available via ftp , wondering anyone knew obtain copy would appreciate information , would like , , establish best os needs robbie z shererrg sfasu edu wait may 18th able buy new os 2 2 1 since released comdex day run windows 3 1 apps windows enh mode ca n't wait , ftp 6 months old beta version ftp os2 nmsu edu , version probably lot slower final product test , please mind single tasking system always faster one task real power os2 lies multitasking ca n't really measured happy hans whales atlantic people islands perfect harmony last 1000 years matter urban without real relation coherence nature says
vision auc dk \( hans f e s8 \) subject head head win os 2 reply jagrant emr1 emr ca 's message sat , 15 may 1993 17 53 12 gmt organization laboratory image analysis , university lines 28 article 1993may15 emr1 emr ca jagrant emr1 emr ca \( john grant \) writes n't think question os 2 x x run windows apps \? important question subsequent os 2 versions continue run apps subsequent windows versions future \? john grant jagrant emr1 emr ca airborne geophysics geological survey canada , ottawa important question os2 apps , n't load windows future \? maybe question future windows x 1 run os2 apps \? regards hans whales atlantic people islands perfect harmony last 1000 years matter urban without real relation coherence nature says
dil admin mhs unc edu \( dave laudicina \) subject head head win os 2 nntp posting host dil adp unc edu organization unc office information technology lines 21 really think comparing apples oranges nobody disputes os 2 big os features question individual need power sales windows vs os 2 answer question next question even want run os 2 big monster machine run , diverse set applications run allow work go local computer store answer one think comparison need nt vs os2 2 1 new battle lines drawn windows 3 1 single user pc war next one client server war entries nt , os2 2 1 , unix netware 4 0 granted os 's eventually scaled attractive single user pc probably phase ii' war wins marketplace tell sure fun watching arguing tho thx dave l
maple circa ufl edu subject memory organization center instructional research computing activities lines 6 reply ufcc ufl edu nntp posting host maple circa ufl edu anyone know absolute memory locations windows , ie hardware memory mapped high addresses 16mb \? please reply email thanks david
link escape de \( karl w \) subject data segments memory model usage organization link public mailbox , braunschweig , germany lines 36 hello , wrote firstly , windows 3 1 386 enhanced mode anything special compiled using large memory model \? told even 386 enhanced mode windows load real memory 640k page lock second question relates static data inside way get multiple instances static data segment \( \? \) \? , allocate real static data within code segments ! need dynamic memory allocate data global heap forget written memory management 3 1 virtual memory lock every block without memory manager use far pointer everytime without always lock memory block besides dll 's mostly disguised exe 's , happen called another task karl karl w , 50 , w 1 , link escape de tel 49 5300 fax 49 5300 cis , 204 bix v2 1
csympc scs leeds ac uk \( p \) subject challenge microsoft supporters organization university leeds , school computer studies lines 9 originator csympc article 1993may14 samba oit unc edu dil admin mhs unc edu \( dave laudicina \) writes also think large number attackers call highly technical look around real world people n't want grep auck ls l want push buttons get mean grep \( unix case dependent \) awk \( get auck \? \) mark \)
victorf edison seas ucla edu \( victor friedman \) subject demonstration creation program wanted organization , university california , los angeles lines 20 article cs vu nl cs vu nl \( ml \) writes i'm looking program \( toolkit \) possible create demonstrations fast demonstration mean collection screens one looking demonstration able make choices \( pressing buttons \) change screens \( hypertext \? \? \) screen contain question \( text bitmap \) answers \( buttons \) possible play music show animations \( film \) 've heard animator pro visual basic , n't know autodesk animator good tool one like show partner fx want , could give copy lot advertising lets create graphics \( resolution \) text frames , run film , make choices include music guess 's need 're really interested , email victor friedman victorf seas ucla edu
callison whale st usm edu \( charles james allison \) subject mac disks windows \? organization university southern mississippi lines 14 distribution world nntp posting host whale st usm edu article 180 uupcb hal9k com scott lynn hal9k com \( scott lynn \) writes well , alot graphic design work , remaining loyal dos windows instead macs college n't , though , scan images macintosh anyone know program read mac disks apple file exchange nac writes dos disks probably leaves visibly older every session want transfer windows instead macsee zip ftp cica indiana edu supposed read write mac disks 've never tried , though good luck c j callison whale st usm edu
maclennan cc uregina ca \( maclennan , richard neil \) subject os better os , ! challenge ms supporters distribution world reply maclennan cc uregina ca organization university regina , regina , , canada lines 4 n't wasted enough bandwidth silly discussion already ! ! please flames let sanity prevail richard maclennan
gel binkley cs mcgill ca \( gilles khouzam \) subject mac disks windows \? lines 6 nntp posting host binkley cs mcgill ca organization socs mcgill university , montreal , canada lines 6 macsee zip ftp cica indiana edu supposed read write mac disks 've never tried , though good luck tried , ca n't say works , 'cause n't read 800k disks , reads 1 44mb program read 800k disks , please let know
crash cts com \( aaron grier \) subject challenge microsoft supporters organization cts network services \( crash , ctsnet \) , el cajon , ca lines 47 article news rich bnr ca bjgrier bnr ca \( brian grier \) writes think people posting forgetting users ms products even know internet , unix unfriendly place bizzare abreviations replace rather comfortable abreviations know abreviations subtle differences different vendors pc users tend customize windowing setup , much command line ca n't customize command line interface \? \? change prompt , make aliases \( someone like used say , ls , type dos machine still get directory listing \) , unix , n't like command line interface , throw get different one \( csh , bash , ksh , sh , etc \) computer users world ms product symbolize quality ms made life easier , productive quality care innovative things ms done , make life computer one heck lot easier may know better computer users world change perception true face unix come decent gui available variations unix catch mainstream computer users net mainstream computer users decent gui variations unix \? motif \? stuff mit \? \( twm comes mind \) pretty standard heck , xwindows program runs like likes end user really know manipulate actual windows mouse , since gui , 's graphical bit easier figure \( something windows people pressing throats time \) thing fear gap normal users running windows \( flavors \) power users running unix advanced oses least right , dos still pretty much king bring copy latest whiz bang programming demo friends house , since run dos , enjoy edu crash cts com \( preferred \)
nick apana org au \( nick \) subject creating batch file windows nt organization apana , melbourne lines 14 sasswb k2 sasswb unx sas com \( scott bass \) writes saw another post list \( subject something like vi available windows \? \) someone said vi , make , awk , ksh available microsoft toolkit product \? separate product part windows \? ksh would need could count nt sites imagine mks toolkit , mortice kern systems another third party add , good one nick nick apana org au melbourne , australia 61 \( 3 \) 336
kralizec zeta org au \( steven murray \) subject need sdk well \? organization kralizec dialup unix sydney 61 2 837 1183 v 32bis lines 14 nntp posting host kralizec zeta org au summary need sdk well \? keywords sdk , windows microsoft windows device driver kit \( \) documentation \( blurb \) states user must separately acquire microsoft windows software development kit \( sdk \) , contains windows tools build drivers using borland c application frameworks , necessary \? also copy microsoft press programmer 's reference library \( books \) normally comes sdk , microsoft macro assembler 6 0 sdk neccessary development virtual device drivers \? steven murray \( posted behalf brian davies \)
csympc scs leeds ac uk \( p \) subject challenge microsoft supporters organization university leeds , school computer studies lines 17 originator csympc article feenix metronet com jack feenix metronet com \( jack hudler \) writes article twalls ncc1701d demon co uk twalls ncc1701d demon co uk \( tim walls \) writes n't want run blasted windows every time want delete tree absolutely ludicrous load hog like delete files ! would like requiring crane change tyre car n't download som public domain exactly want shut \? sort thing included millions people n't access pd libraries networks \? people work around , n't mean something n't done remedy situation mark
andromeda rutgers edu \( david de \) subject stop message received running windows 3 1 application menu keywords windows 3 1 , application menu organization rutgers univ , new brunswick , n j lines 28 running windows 3 1 386sx 16 mhz five megs memory motherboard came one meg , added four megs past weekend 70 simms installed application menu ms dos command park till today , parked disk application menu without problem attempting park heads today , received following message stop application violated system integrity due invalid general protection fault terminated message mean \? thanks , david de \( andromeda rutgers edu \) united states increased revenue without punishing obtained personal economic achievements
condor tramp cc utexas edu \( george \) subject problem winqvt net 2 81 dos 6 0 organization university texas austin lines 13 distribution world nntp posting host tramp cc utexas edu using winqvt net 2 81 win3 1 \( dos 5 0 \) quite sometime without problem recently installed dos 6 0 386 40 pc cannot run winqvt net keep getting packet received invalid port reset sent messages console window ca n't get 1 telnet window ca n't use ftp ! ! ! suggestions would greatly appreciated thanks , george \( condor ccwf cc utexas edu \)
nyx cs du edu \( brandon wise \) subject anyone heard \? organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept poor ms windows user whining distribution na lines 4 brandon wise nyx cs du edu
gurgle netcom com \( pete gontier \) subject challenge microsoft supporters organization cellular lines 10 long 're bashing csympc scs leeds ac uk \( p \) writes unix case dependent yes , unix case dependent \) pete gontier ec technology gurgle netcom com microsoft windows like putting lipstick chicken
tim cpsg com au \( timothy fox \) subject hot key screen saver \? lines 24 nntp posting host cpsg com au organization computer power software group pty ltd louray seas gwu edu \( michael panayiotakis \) writes well , renaming screensavers \( scr \) exe , running , , \( n't tried changing win ini , effect \) shows setup dialog box , n't enable saver mickey try exe \( save screen , c config , defaults c \) question tree falls forest one sees hears , fall \? rather many one tree take \? \? \? tim cpsg com au tim fox cp software pty ltd \( 006 640 133 \) ph 61 3 823 19 cato street , east , fax 61 3 822 victoria , australia , 3123 tim cpsg com au question tree falls forest one sees
ucsee berkeley edu \( carleton \) subject mac disks windows \? organization university california , berkeley lines 14 nntp posting host ucsee berkeley edu article 1t6efv 1pj binkley cs mcgill ca gel binkley cs mcgill ca \( gilles khouzam \) writes macsee zip ftp cica indiana edu supposed read write mac disks 've never tried , though good luck tried , ca n't say works , 'cause n't read 800k disks , reads 1 44mb program read 800k disks , please let know i'm sure possible due way mac writes 800k disk think way sectors set different enough pc 3 5 ca n't read hardware problem software cannot correct hope helps correct i'm wrong
microsoft com \( david \) subject challenge microsoft supporters organization microsoft corporation lines 43 article 1993may16 gps leeds ac uk csympc scs leeds ac uk \( p \) writes article feenix metronet com jack feenix metronet com \( jack hudler \) writes article twalls ncc1701d demon co uk twalls ncc1701d demon co uk \( tim walls \) writes n't want run blasted windows every time want delete tree absolutely ludicrous load hog like delete files ! would like requiring crane change tyre car n't download som public domain exactly want shut \? sort thing included millions people n't access pd libraries networks \? people work around , n't mean something n't done remedy situation perfectly valid points agree i'm glad \( ms \) starting remedy situation dos 6 \( get better future releases \) need aware history , however mid late 80 's , ms 's point view os 2 going take world dos would phased , resources dos \( windows , matter \) development mostly redirected os 2 theory keep enough resources dos support people started using os 2 , utilities dos fell windows 3 0 hit market , os 2 \( 1 x , least 2 x seems little better , future still cloudy \) , people either stayed dos \( 3 x 4 x \) apps moved windows point time , ms made decision drop os 2 dos windows short term windows nt long term dos 5 , much improved dos 3 x 4 x , first result ms 's dos windows version 6 takes things somewhat suspect future versions offer even terms real os features \( work nt real clue coworkers , know heck lot years ago \) dave course opinions want ms 's opinions , pr person
cunixb cc columbia edu \( peter b \) subject w4w tables ii printer nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu organization columbia university lines 20 setting large \( 4 pages \) table word windows asked word print hp laserjet ii worked fine first much editing table contents \( structure \) output requests kick lj manual feed mode document containing table documents without tables print correctly look change get document long table use paper drawer rather kick manual feed mode \? believe 've tried obvious printer manager changes well replacing lp 00 files archived versions thanks help peter peter internet columbia edu columbia university , graduate school business 804 hall new york ny
chapman cs sfu ca \( john chapman \) subject tiff file viewer needed organization css , simon fraser university , burnaby , b c , canada lines 13 hello need file viewer 24 bit tiff images , run windows \( 3 1 matters \) alternatively package run x server top windows would well unfortunately budget limited whatever end using public domain inexpensive thanks advance help , john chapman cs sfu ca
kasper aero org \( brian p kasper \) subject tiff file viewer needed organization aerospace corporation , el segundo , ca lines 33 nntp posting host aerospace aero org article 1993may17 cs sfu ca chapman cs sfu ca \( john chapman \) writes hello need file viewer 24 bit tiff images , run windows \( 3 1 matters \) alternatively package run x server top windows would well unfortunately budget limited whatever end using public domain inexpensive thanks advance help , john chapman cs sfu ca paintshop pro windows fantastic product handle tiff , gif , bmp , pcx , many formats , displaying converting shareware version program assume 's available windows areas standard anonymous ftp locations \( 'd try ftp cica indiana edu \) log ftp , use username password , look program called exe something like registered version , major difference detect unregistered version pops message start program asking please register , fantastic software 24 bits , huge images , everything brian brian kasper , aka prisoner full aerospace corporation internet kasper aerospace aero org
ferch ucs ubc ca \( les ferch \) subject mac disks windows \? organization university british columbia lines 25 nntp posting host swiss ucs ubc ca agate berkeley edu ucsee berkeley edu \( carleton \) writes article 1t6efv 1pj binkley cs mcgill ca gel binkley cs mcgill ca \( gilles khouzam \) writes macsee zip ftp cica indiana edu supposed read write mac disks 've never tried , though good luck tried , ca n't say works , 'cause n't read 800k disks , reads 1 44mb program read 800k disks , please let know i'm sure possible due way mac writes 800k disk think way sectors set different enough pc 3 5 ca n't read hardware problem software cannot correct hope helps correct i'm wrong 're right cannot read write mac apple ii 800k 3 5 disk apple ii 5 25 disk without extra hardware however , mac 1 44mb disks read written pc 3 5 hd drive software probably added every pc mac faq file sure gets asked enough
popineau ese metz fr \( popineau \) subject nfs card organization ecole superieure , de metz , france x posted ese metz fr nntp posting host sol ctr columbia edu lines 21 hi , got compatible ethernet card , received copy nfs unfortunately , compatible \( ne2000 \) latest version number nfs \? tackle problem \? thanks help , f popineau e mail popineau ese metz fr popineau loria fr voice mail \( 33 \) 87 74 99 38 surface mail ecole superieure 2 rue f metz cedex 3 france
hatton socrates ucsf edu \( tom hatton \) subject challenge microsoft supporters distribution usa organization ucsf computer graphics lab lines 30 mike schleppo bocaraton ibm com \( mike dahmus \) writes 1993may13 microsoft com microsoft com \( jim francis \) writes note working ms past 2 years developer past 13 os 2 technically superior windows considering ms makes money per copy os 2 sold ibm co wrote differences os 2 1 2 os 2 1 3 os 2 1 3 half memory requirements os 2 1 3 quicker even half memory os 2 1 3 much stable oh , one thing ibm os 2 1 3 yes , lot os 2 2 0 common os 2 1 x written guys however , many things made os 2 2 0 much successful \( win os 2 , workplace shell \) previous versions ibm work co wrote may technically accurate , 's really red herring , bits selling product n't written n't forget seamless win apps os 2 ms could n't \( viz \) ibm managed right tom hatton hatton cgl ucsf edu \( 415 \) 476
hatton socrates ucsf edu \( tom hatton \) subject challenge microsoft supporters distribution usa organization ucsf computer graphics lab lines 10 win os 2 ibm work \? make laugh writing couple thousands lines code make windows compatible dpmi implementation make rest windows ibm work n't think ms anything brag comes following dpmi , consistency hobgoblin , etc , suppose tom hatton hatton cgl ucsf edu \( 415 \) 476
pk64380 kaarne cs tut fi \( pasi petri , , , sig , \) subject hot key switching program manager \? originator pk64380 kaarne cs tut fi nntp posting host kaarne cs tut fi reply pk64380 kaarne cs tut fi organization tampere university technology , dep computer science lines 9 article 1993may15 lth se , knut tts lth se \( \) win 3 1 , one may assign hot keys program items within program manager program manager \? one already , way assign one \? put progman \( \) startup group zi
cliffga microsoft com \( clifford garrett \) subject challenge microsoft supporters organization microsoft corp distribution usa lines 8 yes , lot os 2 2 0 common os 2 1 x written guys however , many things made os 2 2 0 much successful \( win os 2 , workplace shell \) previous versions ibm work yes , certainly ibm wrote windows code ! ! ! c
unixg ubc ca \( yep ! 's \) subject help w scan 104 organization university british columbia lines 10 nntp posting host unixg ubc ca somebody help installed version 104 anti virus program tried scan entire hard disk , got message sorry , ca n't open xxxx couple files , including exe n't happen \( previous version \) appear friend 's machine thankx
christian robert ch subject windows exit problem organization university , switzerland lines 6 hello , problem window 3 1 program sometimes save settings program manager system corrupt one grp files progman exe can't open next start thanks answer
vms ie subject old irish gaelic truetype font synopsis replies organization conferencing service lines 44 irish gaelic truetype font wanted synopsis wrote anyone tell find ms windows truetype font give characters used writing irish gaelic old style \? example , font letter would look something like c horizontal bar sitting top , letter g would look something like horizontal bar sitting top many thanks responded question unfortunately luck actually getting font , lot people interested one , decided create truetype font fitting description font based used issue dineen 's dictionary typical found irish books early part century may take time \( limited spare time \) 'll make available anyone interested , ready responses received kevin donnelly \( ac uk \) mentioned michael \( ucd ie \) developed fonts macintosh may able advise contacted michael told three fonts available macintosh , eventually port pc , charging ir 100 \( 160 \) one com mentioned uses two font irish gaelic look american normal n't know get n't think effects looking finally , netcom com \( \) mentioned font included casady greene fluent laser fonts 2 package much like describing faxed casady greene info got reply 's 'll post newsgroups make font available colum
christian robert ch subject diamond 24 windows 3 1 conflict organization university , switzerland lines 10 hello , problems diamond stealth local bus graphic card try start windows system stop display free files handles , cannot load command , system halted perhaps bios setup problem i'm used ami bios setup somebody explain setup shadow video rom , others shadow rom , also config two setup best graphic card thanks answer ch robert
stanford edu \( sam \) subject best shareware organization dr herzl 's new zion club x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 20 know list best shareware public domain programs windows cica ftp site , unfortunately year old list author made sound like list going updated every month still updated \? anyone else compile similar list \? also individual suggestions best shareware public domain programs \? i'm interested good software every category \( please try include ftp site exact file name , possible , post \) thanks , sam leland stanford edu good david
mach1 wlu ca \( wells dana \) subject anyone heard \? x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 organization wilfrid laurier university distribution na lines 8 new command dos 6 allows erase directory files , without first erasing individual files dana wells , ba yes , another male dana wilfrid laurier u , waterloo , urban mach1 wlu ca plan better !
grimm wu wien ac \( thomas w grimm \) subject wanted hypertext \( alike \) win3 1 organization wu wien lines 8 distribution world nntp posting host wu wien ac fact , i'm looking possibility connect different information \( like windows help system \) , n't want program system necessary effort afford small possible thanx advance , thomas !
louray seas gwu edu \( michael panayiotakis \) subject mac disks windows \? organization george washington university lines 17 article 1t6efv 1pj binkley cs mcgill ca gel binkley cs mcgill ca \( gilles khouzam \) writes macsee zip ftp cica indiana edu supposed read write mac disks 've never tried , though good luck tried , ca n't say works , 'cause n't read 800k disks , reads 1 44mb program read 800k disks , please let know well , ca n't say n't work inability read 800k mac disks sw problem rather , 's hardware pcs seen post program able read non 1 44mb mac disks , comes memory 's card , drop com port something n't remember specifics , tho peace , mickey
kdb sunbar mc duke edu \( kurt bollacker \) subject challenge microsoft supporters lines 20 nntp posting host mc duke edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 brian grier \( bjgrier bnr ca \) wrote computer users world ms product symbolize quality ms made life easier , productive quality care innovative things ms done , make life computer one heck lot easier may know better computer users world change perception none changes fact msw3 1 objectively inferior competition begun learn life masses never choose best option available choose one conditioned think best i'm glad i'm one kurt bollacker duke university medical center kdb sunbar mc duke edu durham , nc 27710
bferrell cicada occ uc edu \( brett ferrell \) subject challenge microsoft supporters nntp posting host cicada occ uc edu organization university cincinnati distribution usa lines 15 article 1993may17 microsoft com cliffga microsoft com \( clifford garrett \) writes yes , lot os 2 2 0 common os 2 1 x written guys however , many things made os 2 2 0 much successful \( win os 2 , workplace shell \) previous versions ibm work yes , certainly ibm wrote windows code ! ! ! c n't point better windows windoze \) brett sherron ferrell email bferrell uceng uc edu u cincy catch cats college engineering
subject word windows problems cleeve lucifer latrobe edu au \( jason cleeve \) organization la trobe university lines 26 trying use equation editor word windows 2 0 get couple error messages along lines ca n't find font mt extra default printer characters displayed printed try installing equation editor reinstall new printer similar font fences know fonts system unable use tried solutions avail anyone similar problems found way fix , could let know urgently required ! ! thanks , jason cleeve \( j cleeve ieee org \) q ` comp sci \( \) elect eng ' la trobe university australia email cleeve lucifer latrobe edu au jason cleeve \( j cleeve ieee org \) q ` comp sci \( \) elect eng ' la trobe university australia email cleeve lucifer latrobe edu au
powlesla acs ucalgary ca \( jim powlesland \) subject mac disks windows \? nntp posting host acs ucalgary ca organization university calgary , alberta lines 23 article 180 uupcb hal9k com scott lynn hal9k com \( scott lynn \) writes well , alot graphic design work , remaining loyal dos windows instead macs college n't , though , scan images macintosh anyone know program read mac disks apple file exchange nac writes dos disks probably leaves visibly older every session want transfer windows instead would appreciate info want windows program , settle dos program called mac allows read mac 3 5 high density disks dos machine get program simtel 20 i'm sure directory location jim powlesland internet powlesla acs ucalgary ca academic computing services voice \( 403 \) 220 university calgary message \( 403 \) 220 6201 calgary , alberta canada t2n 1n4 fax \( 403 \) 282 9199
thg cam orl co uk \( tim glauert \) subject challenge microsoft supporters nntp posting host cam orl co uk organization olivetti research ltd , cambridge , england lines 15 article news duke edu , kdb sunbar mc duke edu \( kurt bollacker \) writes none changes fact msw3 1 objectively inferior competition mean msw3 1 objectively inferior respects \( trivially true \) , objectively inferior \( trivially false \) mean something else \? criteria chosen objective \? sure criteria objective \? begun learn life masses never choose best option available choose one conditioned think best i'm glad i'm one comment
athena mit edu \( daniel \) subject word windows problems organization massachusetts institute technology lines 34 distribution world nntp posting host w20 575 40 mit edu article 1993may16 1973 latrobe edu au , cleeve lucifer latrobe edu au \( jason cleeve \) writes trying use equation editor word windows 2 0 get couple error messages along lines ca n't find font mt extra default printer characters displayed printed try installing equation editor reinstall new printer similar font fences know fonts system unable use tried solutions avail anyone similar problems found way fix , could let know urgently required ! ! thanks , back ! ! ! ! ! ! congratulations , 've discovered nasty , frequently , bug word setup program know wrong , quite easy fix go fonts dialog control panel , select two fonts mt extra fences delete , delete list entries , disk files select add , add fonts mt extra plain fences plain close font box , close control panel , restart word everything alright anyone know microsoft fixed thing yet \? know , 's frequently reported daniel athena mit edu massachusetts institute technology
ioerger sophocles cs uiuc edu \( thomas ioerger \) subject logic backup \? organization university illinois , dept comp sci , urbana , il lines 25 backing hard drive ever since install everything scratch crash \( learned hard way , n't \? ! \) using windows based backup program \( actually norton \) , began wondering logic sure , accidentally delete file , get archive disk crashes \? would able start windows run backup program ! \( note , crash , mean , error message prevented machine booting properly think gave early , n't time patience tools figure exactly problem hard drive needed cleaning anyway yeah right \) whole scenario complicated fact using stacker think 2 possibilities 1 \) i'm right disk really crashes , would least install dos windows get backup program working 2 \) i'm wrong easy way make mirror hard disk easily restore 's state scratch polls open tom ioerger univeristy illinois , cs grad student ioerger cs uiuc edu
strobl gmd de \( wolfgang strobl \) subject challenge microsoft supporters nntp posting host organization gmd , , germany lines 22 news duke edu kdb sunbar mc duke edu \( kurt bollacker \) writes brian grier \( bjgrier bnr ca \) wrote computer users world ms product symbolize quality ms made life easier , productive quality care innovative things ms done , make life computer one heck lot easier may know better computer users world change perception none changes fact msw3 1 objectively inferior competition indeed true prefer windows nt certainly much better microsoft windows 3 1 dos \( wolfgang strobl wolfgang strobl gmd de \( 49 2241 \) 14 gmd fuer mathematik und ` ` , p box 1316 , include \( \) \( \) w , germany std disclaimer hpp
mekenkamp stpc wi leidenuniv nl \( leo mekenkamp \) subject challenge microsoft supporters lines 26 organization department mathematics computer science , university leiden brian grier \( bjgrier bnr ca \) wrote computer users world ms product symbolize quality ms made life easier , productive quality care innovative things ms done , make life computer one heck lot easier may know better computer users world change perception excuse \? one people enjoy working w win \? come talk house mate mine tell productive life encountered yet another sudden appearence dos prompt cutting pasting win ! empty win screen without tasks running \( e esc brings empty list , progman done \) leo 's starboard bow , leo mekenkamp scrape 'em jim ! 53 6 ' ` lz leiden netherlands ` ' 071 \( \) \( \) ' ` mekenkamp stpc wi leidenuniv nl ` ` ` ' ' ' leo wi leidenuniv nl
george filebank cts com \( george \) subject head head win distribution world organization file bank bbs , ca 619 728 reply george filebank cts com \( george \) lines 15 jg fall , believe ibm longer rights jg view microsoft code , way maintain jg sort compatibility reverse engineer would jg want reverse engineer application \? n't retain windows nt oem status \? , gives nt source code , since windows headed toward nt \( win32s , \) slmr 2 1a g l n e e u r n g g u g e file bank bbs 619 728 pcboard v 14 5a usr hst ds 8 nodes rime internet largest clipper file collection world
bnc si macsch com \( brian casey \) subject mac disks windows \? organization corporation lines 27 article 1993may17 seas gwu edu louray seas gwu edu \( michael panayiotakis \) writes article 1t6efv 1pj binkley cs mcgill ca gel binkley cs mcgill ca \( gilles khouzam \) writes macsee zip ftp cica indiana edu supposed read write mac disks 've never tried , though good luck tried , ca n't say works , 'cause n't read 800k disks , reads 1 44mb program read 800k disks , please let know well , ca n't say n't work inability read 800k mac disks sw problem rather , 's hardware pcs seen post program able read non 1 44mb mac disks , comes memory 's card , drop com port something n't remember specifics , tho peace , mickey 1 44mb drives \( mac pc \) , disk spins constant rpm 800k mac disk drives , spin rate disk varied tracks pass head constant speed slower rotation outer tracks , faster rotation inner tracks pc needs special controller hardware make happen brian casey bnc macsch com
sam4628 chensun2m tamu edu \( iv \) subject logic backup \? organization dept chemical engineering , texas university lines 14 distribution world reply sam4628 chensun2m tamu edu nntp posting host chensun2m tamu edu newer versions norton backup windows \( 2 0 least \) emergency disk , allow restore tape without reinstalling dos windows \( understand 's sort cumbersome use , nearly much reinstalling everything ! \) steven better remain silent sam4628 chensun2m tamu edu thought fool speak remove doubts hardly speak
kepley photon phys unca edu \( brad kepley \) subject head head win os 2 organization university north carolina lines 19 nntp posting host photon phys unca edu article 1993may16 samba oit unc edu dil admin mhs unc edu \( dave laudicina \) writes question next question even want run os 2 big monster machine run , diverse think 're requirements os 2 considering os 2 multi threaded true multitasking os takes place dos windows , actually think requirements os 2 also think anyone using windows 3 1 without 8 megs ram , 386 40 , 200 megs hard drive space , beating head wall also legitimate requirements os 2 fact , requirements windows 3 1 os 2 equal natural progress things government gain ground liberty yield thomas jefferson brad kepley kepley photon phys unca edu 704 252 8330 voice days
pt hk r se \( andy \) subject mac disks windows \? reply gel binkley cs mcgill ca 's message 16 may 1993 18 16 31 0400 organization lysator acs linkoping university 1t6efv 1pj binkley cs mcgill ca lines 2 technology apple uses 800k disks , ibm pc cant read without special hardware , 1 44m disks work alike ibm 's read 1 44 disks pc andy
msbendts mtu edu \( michael scott bendtsen \) subject head head win os 2 organization michigan technological university x newsreader tin 1 1 pl4 lines 25 i'm waiting june first roll around get hands pc solaris unix intel chip ! know many unix possibilities , includes \( windows api binary interface think \) technology wil run windows apps straight outta da box flies enhanced mode , 's another contender look corporate education market big complex home front windows 4 mac sys7 take nt os 2 fight small mid businesses however , powerpc becomes available \( especially laptop notebook form \) markets ability connect unix machine work yet still run windows mac apps home going real attractive alot people ! ! ! predictions mike mike bendtsen \( msbendts mtu edu \) 740 elm st apt 4 senior technical consultant hancock , mi michigan technological university
qualcom qualcomm com \( j \) subject mac disks windows \? nntp posting host qualcom qualcomm com organization qualcomm , inc , san diego , ca lines 28 're right cannot read write mac apple ii 800k 3 5 disk apple ii 5 25 disk without extra hardware however , mac 1 44mb disks read written pc 3 5 hd drive software probably added every pc mac faq file sure gets asked enough agree added sort faq list strayed original topic computer environment pretty split mac 's pc 's lucky get desk people pc 's need share data mac users mac users problems package called dos automatically lets mac read dos disks pc know ! mac macsee dos platform , requires perform activity dos program selectively transport files question originally posed program hooks windows like dll interpret reading mac disk pc , allow access standard file dialogs quite clear would available 1 44mb j qualcomm com
lanl gov \( john \) subject strange windows problem reply lanl gov organization los alamos national laboratory lines 24 windows 3 1 installation somehow gone whenever try run windows , logo comes ok , tries enter windows , screen gets totally screwed 's wrong graphics mode something 's completely although functional still exit dos alt e return combination tried reinstall windows , recall , halfway installation process , install takes windows graphics problem surfaces cannot complete installation started trying get game working system config sys autoexec bat restored problem cropped i'm running 486 33dx diamond stealth vram \( 've stealth video drivers luck \) i'm also using qemm stacker 3 0 windows installed un stacked partition course , worked perfectly email replies suggestions would appreciated thanks
srv pacbell com \( martin \) subject logic backup \? organization pacific bell lines 27 article cs uiuc edu ioerger sophocles cs uiuc edu \( thomas ioerger \) writes think 2 possibilities 1 \) i'm right disk really crashes , would least install dos windows get backup program working using software 're using , agree installed dos , windows \( functionally norton , purposes discussion \) , used dos backup command much restore , boot system diskette , use dos restore read much , boot windows restore full backups using \( norton , case \) , overwriting 've restored allows keep windows essentially unchanged , customization real copy done using 3rd party backup utility 2 \) i'm wrong easy way make mirror hard disk easily restore 's state scratch seems possible , put versions dos backup utility system floppy could restore one go martin systems analyst , capacity planning , pacific bell pacbell com sacramento , ca usa 916 972 's good ancient druids , strange fermented fluids , 's good enough ! \( \)
bferrell moth occ uc edu \( brett ferrell \) subject challenge microsoft supporters nntp posting host moth occ uc edu organization university cincinnati lines 17 article strobl gmd de strobl gmd de \( wolfgang strobl \) writes news duke edu kdb sunbar mc duke edu \( kurt bollacker \) writes none changes fact msw3 1 objectively inferior competition indeed true prefer windows nt certainly much better microsoft windows 3 1 dos please apples apples nt beta , cannot accepted competitor win3 1 's market os 2 2 1 , couple weeks \( wolfgang strobl wolfgang strobl gmd de \( 49 2241 \) 14 btw , cute sig brett sherron ferrell email bferrell uceng uc edu u cincy catch cats college engineering
kepley photon phys unca edu \( brad kepley \) subject head head win os 2 organization university north carolina lines 22 nntp posting host photon phys unca edu article 1993may17 mtu edu msbendts mtu edu \( michael scott bendtsen \) writes i'm waiting june first roll around get hands pc solaris unix intel chip ! know many unix possibilities , includes \( windows api binary interface think \) technology wil run windows apps straight outta da box certainly help able run windows dos apps way solaris os 2 scheme going challenge microsoft somehow get prices solaris os 2 whatever apps , dos competitive level everybody would rather run solaris app solaris system os 2 app os 2 system , usually ca n't afford unix system high prices good unix software natural progress things government gain ground liberty yield thomas jefferson brad kepley kepley photon phys unca edu 704 252 8330 voice days
ntaib silver ucs indiana edu \( iskandar taib \) subject challenge microsoft supporters nntp posting host silver ucs indiana edu reply comp os ms windows advocacy organization indiana university lines 24 article mekenkamp 6 stpc wi leidenuniv nl mekenkamp stpc wi leidenuniv nl \( leo mekenkamp \) writes excuse \? one people enjoy working w win \? come talk house mate mine tell productive life encountered yet another sudden appearence dos prompt cutting pasting win ! empty win screen without tasks running \( e esc brings empty list , progman done \) sigh n't know roomate must something wrong people enjoy using windows \? yes 'll admit given choice mac windows choose windows every time \( start another flame thread 9 \) \) iskandar taib thing worse peach ala internet ntaib silver ucs indiana edu frog frog ala peach bitnet ntaib iubacs !
rdippold qualcomm com \( ron asbestos dippold \) subject challenge microsoft supporters originator rdippold happy qualcomm com nntp posting host happy qualcomm com organization qualcomm , inc , san diego , ca lines 31 jack feenix metronet com \( jack hudler \) writes 's called free system suggests wish enhance dos , , sell , give away microsoft ca n't everything everyone ! period ! done , companies n't marketing budgets ms 4dos , instance , everything command com \( never could ms \) use usually find addictive crack cocaine rely word mouth sales seems worked pretty good far , corporate weenie manager type usually likes see big glossy ad pc magazine 's okay , marketing n't fundamental human right , 've got product 's superior dos command interpreter every way lot proud ms ms really gave damn , could duplicate , buy outright \( 've got money \) , even use old sending engineers help compatability issues technology dos mediocre product cheap price backed top notch marketing vendor agreements mediocre excusable early days someone else 's hack , 've ten years play interesting thought ms products i'm aware last years allow access names designers programmers easter egg screens , including windows , least names buried files thing dos 5 0 6 0 , ashamed names \? 's least one fool every married couple
wild access digex net \( wildstrom \) subject mac disks windows \? organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 14 nntp posting host access digex net gel binkley cs mcgill ca \( gilles khouzam \) writes macsee zip ftp cica indiana edu supposed read write mac disks 've never tried , though good luck tried , ca n't say works , 'cause n't read 800k disks , reads 1 44mb program read 800k disks , please let know easiest way send files accross network much easier going mac pc n't worry losing resource fork file , often problem sending binary files pc mac
mike schleppo bocaraton ibm com \( mike dahmus \) subject challenge microsoft supporters distribution usa news software ibm os 2 pm rn \( nr 2 \) v0 17h vishnepolsky r rogers lines 29 reply vnet ibm com \( mike dahmus \) disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host schleppo bocaraton ibm com organization development , , ibm boca raton om 1993may17 microsoft com cliffga microsoft com \( clifford garrett \) writes yes , lot os 2 2 0 common os 2 1 x written guys however , many things made os 2 2 0 much successful \( win os 2 , workplace shell \) previous versions ibm work yes , certainly ibm wrote windows code ! ! ! cliff , know difference windows win os 2 \? 's helpful hint running windows os 2 2 0 possible real mode , dos box course , possible windows 3 0 , since windows 3 1 longer real mode ability run standard mode , ability os 2 windows clipboard , ability run seamless , things added ibm win os 2 , everybody running windows real mode dos box os 2 2 x raise hand finally , everybody running win os 2 os 2 , raise hand get picture , cliff \? mike dahmus internet vnet ibm com vnet boca development ibm mike schleppo bocaraton ibm com ibm personal systems disclaimer official ibm spokesman
ucsd edu \( mike fischer \) subject challenge microsoft supporters organization university california , san diego lines 8 nntp posting host 39 1 extern ucsd edu article strobl gmd de strobl gmd de \( wolfgang strobl \) writes indeed true prefer windows nt certainly much better microsoft windows 3 1 dos like compared os 2 2 x \? mike
lhighley gozer idbsu edu \( larry paul \) subject info windows help files nntp posting host gozer organization boise state university lines 37 latest help files server winhelp \( \) function , told ms , search path ms windows helpfiles wo n't problem long include path move , however , application hardcoded path code winhelp invoked searches given path \( e winhelp \( , c amipro \) example \) winhelp search path instead looks directory installed software tested variety software packages moved helpfiles drive z included path statement results different software packages norton desktop found helpfiles windows v3 1 workgroups found helpfiles windows v3 1 found helpfiles ms v3 0 found helpfiles ms word found helpfiles ms excel v4 0a find helpfiles \( strange \) ms foxpro v2 5 windows found helpfiles lotus amipro v3 0 find helpfiles procomm plus windows find helpfiles guess better nothing would make sense able specify global path helpfiles anyone comments help anyone left something please let know lhighley gozer idbsu edu thanks help everyone especially jagrant emr1 emr ca info topic develops
tal michael wtm utrc utc com subject challenge microsoft supporters nntp posting host lestat organization utrc lines 37 article mekenkamp 6 stpc wi leidenuniv nl mekenkamp stpc wi leidenuniv nl \( leo mekenkamp \) writes brian grier \( bjgrier bnr ca \) wrote computer users world ms product symbolize quality ms made life easier , productive quality care innovative things ms done , make life computer one heck lot easier may know better computer users world change perception excuse \? one people enjoy working w win \? come talk house mate mine tell productive life encountered yet another sudden appearence dos prompt cutting pasting win ! empty win screen without tasks running \( e esc brings empty list , progman done \) leo 's starboard bow , leo mekenkamp scrape 'em jim ! 53 6 ' ` lz leiden netherlands ` ' 071 \( \) \( \) ' ` mekenkamp stpc wi leidenuniv nl ` ` ` ' ' ' leo wi leidenuniv nl progman ini ye \? i'm 've tuning system , 's way remember getting blank screen ctrl esc one progman ini parameters 0 3 , ca n't remember 've never seen win 3 something like , captain tal
msi com \( barton wright \) subject \( info \) dos msw meltdown progressing nicely reply msi com organization molecular simulations inc x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 x posted msi com nntp posting host sol ctr columbia edu lines 17 bruce \( cs tamu edu \) wrote another comment least ibm consultants trying help 've never heard microsoft sending customer engineers client 's organization help solve problems \( could wrong , common knowledge \) microsoft division called microsoft consulting ibm \( field engineers \) however , neither company sends consultants client sites companies charge high hourly rates site consulting unless client already paid annual service contract barton wright molecular simulations inc voice \( 617 \) 229 9800 msi com burlington , fax \( 617 \) 229
richs microsoft com \( rick schaut \) subject challenge microsoft supporters organization microsoft corporation reply richs microsoft com \( rick schaut \) distribution usa lines 13 article news duke edu kdb sunbar mc duke edu \( kurt bollacker \) writes agree one ever definitively met challenge batted around semantics oh well , guess things turn expected hmmm gave two examples matched objective criteria , response subjective claptrap never counter fact examples fit objective criteria one wonders 's playing semantic games , rick schaut uucp uunet uw beaver ! microsoft ! richs microsoft n't speak , n't speak microsoft
p4 cs man ac uk \( david hancock \) subject panasonic kp x truetype 's going \? keywords computer system organization dept computer science , university manchester , u k lines 22 added panasonic kp dot matrix printer 386sx 25 installed appropriate windows 3 1 printer driver \( e one specifically printer \) i'm unable persuade thing print correctly appears happening truetype fonts n't get printed properly experiments show graphic images \( example line drawing corel draw \) print ok windows happily prints gifs etc ms notepad ms write print correctly providing font 's text printer fonts print truetype fonts , lines appear printed wrong order change text font printer font , problem eliminated tried using printer drivers printers kx \( name \) emulates , namely lq 850 ibm proprinter problem occurs kind soul tell hell going , would david h
stlombo eos acm rpi edu \( steve j lombardi \) subject please help amiga user find comfort windows organization voice fate lines 26 nntp posting host eos acm rpi edu night i'm amiga user day work windows 'd much comfortable windows two things 1 good personal information manager know calendar , address book , reminder list etc rolled one clean interface 2 good file manager poor standards one left right window allows file operations able launch programs interface would nice well text reading graphics viewing familiar directory opus amiga know i'm looking anyone steer towards ftp sight programs would make transition windows lot easier please reply via email rarely get read group thanks much ! would jerk \? know n't smoke steve lombardi drugs n't cocaine n't shoot stlombo acm rpi edu smack n't even drink beer would fu \? would jerk \? know n't smoke steve lombardi drugs n't cocaine n't shoot stlombo acm rpi edu smack n't even drink beer would
netcom com \( \) subject old irish gaelic truetype font synopsis replies organization confuse cat , ltd lines 17 vms ie \( colum \) comments finally , netcom com \( \) mentioned font included casady greene fluent laser fonts 2 package much like describing faxed casady greene info got reply casady greene seems notoriously slow responding , 've heard others contacted may reply via fax , via snail mail give time , contact let joy innocence prevail movie toys
nectar world std com \( nectar nirvana \) subject please help amiga user find comfort windows organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 39 stlombo eos acm rpi edu \( steve j lombardi \) writes night i'm amiga user day work windows 'd much comfortable windows two things 1 good personal information manager know calendar , address book , reminder list etc rolled one clean interface lotus organizer ! ! ! quick , cheap , pretty ! features want 2 good file manager poor standards might look one shell alternatives provided third parties norton desktop windows , instance personally , like file manager , comes windows 's much faster ndw 's , file manager 's part windows workgroups even decent button bar one left right window allows file operations able launch programs interface would nice well text reading graphics viewing familiar directory opus amiga know i'm looking first file manager , others 'll need look ndw pc tools windows , etc anyone steer towards ftp sight programs would make transition windows lot easier please reply via email rarely get read group thanks much ! n't yet seen decent freeware even shareware shell may nectar nirvana absurd essential concept nectar world std com first truth
vast unsw edu au \( \) subject experiences dos 6 summary microsoft ! nntp posting host oyster vast unsw edu au organization university new south wales , kensington , australia lines 236 \( trouble posting article within tin week get multiple copies , apologies \) challenge microsoft supporters defend pathetic state dos 6 upgrade distribution long story would make good reading interested knowing potential pitfalls upgrading dos 6 able notice week playing around ti 4000 \( 486sx 25 \) 4m ram 120m disk system bios version 1 03 05 21 92 texas instruments cl vga bios v 1 03 a1 cirrus logic advance power manager battery pro v b6 00 texas instruments smart drive cache \( win3 1 dos6 \) parameters 2048 1024 b windows benchmark winbench \( tm \) v 3 11 02 11 93 zd labs dos 6 , could understand certain things became slow , especially decided try process finding , discovered interesting things disk performance double space smart drive things appear slow time , certain applications appeared run much slower interesting commands like running far slowly consider useful standards suspected double space \( ds \) decided measure impact system using winbench \( tm \) real disk winmark original system \( shipped factory dos 5 3 1 \) became upgraded dos 6 ds thus effective performance degradation 50 percent really surprise knew ds compression must cost something specifically , short sequential reads 512 bytes , ds actually improves transfer rates 10 \( cpu faster , cpu cycles needed ds compensated savings cycles \) however , cases , particularly large random writes , transfers take three times long performance depends type access \( e random sequential , small large transfer units \) , average \( based winbench 's assumptions \) , disk slows half speed tests alone , done \( see winbench \) smartdrv , say much except helps put subjective statements like noticable difference even 'it speed disk access fast cpu slow disk o' explained applications ran markedly slower , \( latter especially \) long double space windows dblspace run within windows , even wanted get information , modify anything , matter even check usage try dblspace dos box within windows see mean error message get narrow minded programer get , wonder yes , information obtained dd add file manager , dll understand compressed floppy ! \( use dos 6 supplement utility create compressed floppy dont know \) dos 6 incompatible ti apm defragmentation seemed take much time even , waited patiently till finished ran confirm confirmation command 120m drive take 30 seconds \( much faster used \) took 12 minutes discovered moved mouse , defragmentation checking ran faster \( figure ticked rapidly \) ti 's battery saver advanced power management \( apm \) module slows clock thinks cpu idle , obviously thought ds defragmentation idle process ! disabling ti 's power saver , operation took 20 seconds programmers think gateway nomad users idiots readme txt file , find following running microsoft backup gateway nomad computers avoid conflict turbo feature microsoft backup windows ms dos , add l0 switch device command config sys loads battery pro file , run microsoft backup , type l0 command prompt checked ti 's manual l0 option , realise means disable power saving features notebook would anyone want run driver disabled ! found , ti 's power management interfere microsoft backup readme txt claims , \( knows else \) crippled ti 's power saver obvious thing apm specifications indeed thing , either microsoft programmers ti programmers dont know read specifications dont guess idiots way , run advance power management utility , power exe dos6 , check status , says power management status setting adv max cpu idle 60 time figure 60 seems steady state value notebook running nothing \( windows program manager form \) mean windows takes 40 cpu , best 60 left useful work \? overhead justified \( whether windows operating system another user interface \) \? \( dos alone , reports 99 idle time \) looks like windows good example busy waiting type package like students study classical example times ! microsoft programmers know batch programming like structure startup script thus equivalent statements like set path c dos set path c etc bin path c bin set path c etc windows path c windows set path path c bcc bin set path path mouse even though new dos installed directory old one \( e c dos \) , dos 6 installation program every path statement , c dos value result , resultant path many dos 's installation program wanted remove old dos path , add new dos path , clearly scan path statement old dos directory replace new dos path \( even done new dos installed directory different old one \) instead , microsoft programmer \( call person one \) decided meddle every path statement autoexec dos value wonder microsoft desparate would fire programmers incapable thought process started thread dos 4 came , microsoft representative singapore called poster fact specifically said us counterparts saw poster relayed information access internet changed one bit fact , path statement path already , obvious statement touched reason \? another example inability microsoft programmers understand batch programming mouse driver invoked set mouse c etc mouse set path path mouse mouse mouse com guess memmaker \? replaced last statement lh c etc mouse mouse com difficult replace lh parameters , without touching rest line , understand dos 6 software quality dos 6 operating system know , , normal usage , end creating file cannot get rid using commands come deliberately cryptic challenge microsoft use programmers catch bug publish dont within week , post create ghost file surely pick bug without even looking using particular command twice , sure two dozen microsoft \( idiot \) programmers randomly banging keyboards week could find told microsoft tests quality products think funny microsoft found ways test quality accepted industry quality cannot tested , built product wonder cannot provide form guarantees products , even decent list bugs prevent scores user destroying disks beyond repair ! also , run often enough , repeatedly disk fully defragmented , may get errors , created got io sys file size error got truncated chkdsk happend five successive defragmentation first one supposedly job new file creation since , dont dare reply poster network admit ds bugs , willing let us know watch already used ds dr cse , cs e , unsw sign paris hotel p box 1 , kensington , nsw tel fax 61 2 697 313 sports jacket may worn dinner , internet vast unsw edu au trousers dr cse , cs e , unsw sign norwegian cocktail lounge p box 1 , kensington , nsw ladies requested tel fax 61 2 697 313 children internet vast unsw edu au bar
ntaib silver ucs indiana edu \( iskandar taib \) subject please help amiga user find comfort windows nntp posting host silver ucs indiana edu organization indiana university lines 58 article fitz tc cornell edu stlombo eos acm rpi edu \( steve j lombardi \) writes night i'm amiga user day work windows 'd much comfortable windows two things 1 good personal information manager know calendar , address book , reminder list etc rolled one clean interface prefer , strange kind pim 2 good file manager poor standards one left right window allows file operations able launch programs interface would nice well text reading graphics viewing familiar directory opus amiga know i'm looking well , things might help like 3 1 file manager better 1 \) get one window simply double click drive icon gives one window work fallacy drag files windows , icon tree left side window , drive icon beats left right window many open wish instead two 2 \) launch app within file manager double clicking executable 's icon 3 \) launch application open document file double clicking document file 's icon , provided associations set correctly easily done menus browse capability adds lot functionality 3 1 name text files txt point gif , tiff , etc files towards paintshop wingif , takes care requirement text reading graphics viewing know someone prefers using file manager shell setting associations need way directory opus half good file manager must pretty good indeed ! file manager needs understand things done iskandar taib thing worse peach ala internet ntaib silver ucs indiana edu frog frog ala peach bitnet ntaib iubacs !
mono rad nd edu subject program info needed , please distribution world , local organization radiation laboratory u notre dame lines 11 think somebody posted info program one two months ago n't rember detail 'd like one software organize literature i'm scientific publications functions 'd like would able data base b able print special formats different journals info would appreciated yi ming wang radiation laboratory , university notre dame wang 29 nd edu
mead u washington edu \( christian ricci \) subject head head win os 2 article news organization university washington , seattle lines 4 nntp posting host mead u washington edu forgive stupid , n't see rumor somewhere apple working intel platform os say like system 7 's \? chris
vax2 concordia ca \( chen , xia \) subject news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host vax2 concordia ca organization concordia university lines 0
vax2 concordia ca \( chen , xia \) subject install deluxe windows norton desktop \? news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host vax2 concordia ca organization concordia university lines 0
root lyra scg hac com \( dave fisher \) subject screen snapshot \? reply fisher lyra hac com \( dave fisher \) organization hughes aircraft co , , ca lines 10 way save snapshot screen file , windows \? \( similar way one press cmd shift 3 mac \) please email rather posting thanks , dave fisher fisher lyra hac com
andreas sun0 urz uni heidelberg de \( andreas helke \) subject please help amiga user find comfort windows lines 51 organization , universitaet heidelberg , germany article fitz tc cornell edu stlombo eos acm rpi edu \( steve j lombardi \) writes stlombo eos acm rpi edu \( steve j lombardi \) subject please help amiga user find comfort windows date 18 may 1993 00 25 14 gmt night i'm amiga user day work windows 'd much comfortable windows two things 1 good personal information manager know calendar , address book , reminder list etc rolled one clean interface 2 good file manager poor standards one left right window allows file operations able launch programs interface would nice well text reading graphics viewing familiar directory opus amiga know i'm looking written file manager , wich two windows compare files two find wether equal similar files 7 important operations , copy , move , delete , show file , start , navigate directory tree invoked dragging directory entry mouse convenient , selection file operation performed , occur one move bitmap graphic viewing program vpic integrated , database files use view program pctools 7 1 configured use arbitrary viewers show special data formats also present archives pkzip etc simulated filemanager somewhat non user interface , use prefered file manager several labs university filemanager , 's still dos program development windows version yet begun use program package zip , run tells windows companion exe windows program started way start windows program new version 3 19 \( released soon \) includes new command windows program start ftp archives mentioned programs \( archives several mirror sites \) simtel oak oakland edu 141 210 10 117 zip gif zip garbo garbo uwasa fi 128 214 87 1 zip cica ftp cica indiana edu 129 79 20 17 util zip andreas helke , , universitaet heidelberg , germany email genius heidelberg de header posting contain valid smtp mail address
dnbf01 bram cdx mot com \( jackson \) subject looking medical keywords medical nntp posting host bram cdx mot com reply dnbf01 bram cdx mot com \( jackson \) organization motorola codex , canada lines 30 wife looking skeleton male female body 're currently using windows draw import kind graphic formats therefore , anything please advise existance freeware commerical source turn since n't normally read newsgroup , please responds via e mail thanks advance jackson feeder networking engineering internet dnbf01 bram cdx mot com motorola codex , canada macintosh email mot com 400 blvd voice \( 416 \) 507 mississauga , ont , fax \( 416 \) 507 disclaimer opinions , motorola 's
johnm lonestar org \( john munsch \) subject ati avi drivers organization etc organization lines 17 article andrew cmu edu andrew houghton andrew cmu edu writes noticed ati posted beta avi drivers mach32 boards compuserve anyone chance try \? well work \? well indeed home \( vl bus version graphics pro \) stretch avi window 640x480 continue play back smoothly drops frames machines even attempting thing would mean one frame update every 30 seconds isa graphics able zoom 2 without perceptible performance penalty best performance 've seen far possible exception intel board \( uses overlay n't move data isa bus point \) john munsch
discover wright edu \( chris thompson \) subject font size dos window 800x600x256 nntp posting host organization wright state university x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 1
ece bigdog engr arizona edu \( crazy diamond \) subject 800 real deal ! \? ! \? keywords corp organization university arizona lines 21 hello netters aquired enough money purchase laser printer day , bought computer shopper mag looking printer review section noticed machine incredibly low priced features 800 dpi ! ram postscript compatable envelope printing question anyone one know price cheap \? would someone would pass knowledge subject thanks alot ! dave donuts girls best friend
cliffga microsoft com \( clifford garrett \) subject challenge microsoft supporters organization microsoft corp distribution usa lines 4 get picture , find humorous running windows 3 1 apps \( 3 0 2 0 \) makes os 2 credible cliff
kdb sunbar mc duke edu \( kurt bollacker \) subject challenge microsoft supporters lines 40 nntp posting host bal1 mc duke edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 tim glauert \( thg cam orl co uk \) wrote article news duke edu , kdb acpub duke edu \( kurt bollacker \) writes tim glauert \( thg cam orl co uk \) wrote article news duke edu , kdb sunbar mc duke edu \( kurt bollacker \) writes none changes fact msw3 1 objectively inferior competition mean msw3 1 objectively inferior respects \( trivially true \) , objectively inferior \( trivially false \) mean something else \? criteria chosen objective \? sure criteria objective \? believe enough inferior make overall product inferior competition apple system 7 , os 2 2 0 , nextstep 3 0 , unix xwindows \( pick favorite flavor \) words , opinion msw3 1 inferior competition 's msw3 1 objectively inferior technically inferior os guis listed already described say briefly system 7 easier learn use independent studies effect os 2 run msw applications stable multitasking nextstep easier learn , use , program stable multitasking unix x easy learn use stable multitasking setup , exchange data msw machines well msw machines amongst , interoperability issue criterion , inferior another , perhaps incorrect pick glove \? kurt bollacker duke university medical center kdb sunbar mc duke edu durham , nc 27710
chrisa hpwarr hp com \( chris \) subject winfax files ascii format \? organization none reply chrisa hpwarr hp com \( chris \) lines 11 winfax pro provides ocr ocr omnipage although customizable job auto \( want \) much cheaper package \( omni page professional 700 \) sold last time check winfax pro 100 \? \?
george minster york ac uk subject epson stylus 800 organization department computer science , university york , england lines 11 anyone information better , first hand experience , new epson bubblejet printer stylus 800 \? \? i'm particularly interested hearing well works windows presume special printer driver required supplied standard \? able print everything standard postscript laserprinter could \? \? many thanks replies george george bolt , dept psychology , univ york , uk
frost ai mit edu \( sing lee \) subject challenge microsoft supporters organization mit artificial intelligence lab lines 16 distribution usa nntp posting host frost ai mit edu article lll winken llnl gov , \( fuess \) writes one like windows prior 3 0 little use early problems since 3 0 preferred operating system nah ms windows 3 1 operating system , would x windows , motif , geoworks , desqview , shareware win boss c library 's 's name text based windowing system written ran old faithful apple ii note similarity \? rely underlying real os imho , windowing systems , cooler others though
mwunix mitre org \( joe morris \) subject smartdrv dblspace nntp posting host mwunix mitre org organization mitre corporation , mclean va lines 22 recent article rcaldrn med miami edu \( richard calderon \) writes received gateway 486 33 windows dos 6 0 ran times apparent problems decided give double space try compressing drive , problems , decided load windows took 1 minute 45 seconds load dblspace , 17 seconds dblspace little machine noticed error message saying smartdrive 4 0 cannot work dblspace unreasonable , since smartdrv packaged dos 6 version 4 1 make sure drivers \( himem , emm386 , smartdrv \) executed dos directory loss cache provided smartdrv could problem , n't know might cause startup delay testbed dblspace \( minimal amount data disk n't eat much time install uninstall dblspace \) boots 20 seconds starting ms dos herald end autoexec bat execution n't handy system realistic volume data time joe morris mitre
grier bnr ca \( brian grier \) subject challenge microsoft supporters nntp posting host 131 253 206 80 organization bell northern research lines 67 since started twist thread kdb acpub duke edu \( kurt bollacker \) writes believe enough inferior make overall product inferior competition apple system 7 , os 2 2 0 , nextstep 3 0 , unix xwindows \( pick favorite flavor \) words , opinion msw3 1 inferior competition 's msw3 1 objectively inferior technically inferior os guis listed already described say briefly actually fell said believe used rest post previous post think anyone would system 7 easier learn use independent studies effect os 2 run msw applications stable multitasking nextstep easier learn , use , program stable multitasking unix x easy learn use stable multitasking following three competition windows 3 0 \( imho course \) system 7 currently run intel boxes nextstep rather expensive competitor windows nt 3 x unix x exception os 2 require users spend large sum money upgrade applications ones run os 's basically money speaks louder anything else keep saying stable multitasking mean multi finder gem geoworks co operative multi tasking real honest goodness pre multi tasking \? setup , exchange data msw machines well msw machines amongst , interoperability issue basically moot since users able share data quite long time , still blind know criterion , inferior another , perhaps incorrect pick glove \? pick \? stated reasons behind opinions stated straight forward , though protective , manner aside earlier comments actually competitor , think agreement tim glauert agree \? let 's wait see disclaimer opinions expressed mine bnr brian , \( st tt user developer \) wanted computer play games bell northern research 'd buy amiga however research triangle park , nc real work please get lost !
klaava helsinki fi \( j \) subject challenge microsoft supporters organization university helsinki lines 13 article news duke edu kdb sunbar mc duke edu \( kurt bollacker \) writes system 7 easier learn use independent studies effect os 2 run msw applications stable multitasking nextstep easier learn , use , program stable multitasking unix x easy learn use stable multitasking also customizable make computer want , whereas msw microsoft wants bind control left type world ! ' \( 'd want , \)
paladin world std com \( thomas g schlatter \) subject smartdrv dblspace organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 16 article rcaldrn rcaldrn med miami edu \( richard calderon \) writes received gateway 486 33 windows dos 6 0 ran times apparent problems decided give double space try compressing drive , problems , decided load windows took 1 minute 45 seconds load dblspace , 17 seconds dblspace little machine noticed error message saying smartdrive 4 0 cannot work dblspace reason change smartdrv exe 4 0 included windows 3 1 smartdrv exe 4 1 included dos 6 0 compatability dblspace sure running smartdrv dos directory
elroy uh edu \( , dean e \) subject pctools windows demo organization university houston lines 6 distribution world nntp posting host elroy uh edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 someone downloaded pctools demo compuserve , please upload cica ftp site thanks , dean elroy uh edu
jagrant emr1 emr ca \( john grant \) subject \( startrek \) memory ! organization energy , mines , resources , ottawa lines 17 article 1993may18 informix com jerry informix com writes startrek version running nearly always reports space memory , across top screen set correctly \( 've got 16m ram \) \? jerry 're right , n't appear working correctly really say space last frontier across top \) \) \) john grant jagrant emr1 emr ca airborne geophysics geological survey canada , ottawa
joule elee calpoly edu \( dixon ly \) subject challenge microsoft supporters organization cal poly , san luis obispo distribution usa lines 50 article news duke edu kdb acpub duke edu \( kurt bollacker \) writes rick schaut \( richs microsoft com \) wrote article news duke edu kdb sunbar mc duke edu \( kurt bollacker \) writes agree one ever definitively met challenge batted around semantics oh well , guess things turn expected hmmm gave two examples matched objective criteria , response subjective claptrap never counter fact examples fit objective criteria repeat \? mentioned tried present innovative , new concept brought market \? efficient basic \? basic existed , efficiency original either ole \? new concept bring \? document oriented computing \? mac msw simply n't made point burden proof upon exact challenge new computing concept ms brought market first \? nothing , nothing less explain examples fit criterion hmm anyone us computer geeks \( included \) ever consider limited software hardware true , ms products boast features ms invented , many products vendors truely innovative continuing development \? think makes ms special public thier innovative pricing true xwindows mac next feature \( \) thier gui better ms people like ca n't afford true apple lower pricing low end models low end system 7 better operating system , machines operate expensive tastes unix platform powerful , tell common user set \( still confused things \) either puke faint u think , low prices aint innovative u come product offers lower cost \( powerful hardware runs compare macs \) ms kinda innovative oh yea , guess fact support products applications make kinda innovative dixon ly joule elee calpoly edu oboe calpoly edu electrical electronic engineering , cal poly slo
cs uoregon edu \( kartik \) subject menu choice file manager organization university oregon computer information sciences dept lines 21 article shenoy vincent iastate edu shenoy iastate edu \( shiva shenoy \) writes 1993may18 3443 trintex uucp charles tinman dev prodigy com \( charles r emmons \) writes description file manager info menu option edit ini file section addons , great ! else , add following two lines addons section exists , add second line addons info dll note dll part windows resource kit install \( download cica \) , make appropriate changes kartik quote article remember trim essentials kartik , cs uoregon edu network manager , ph student \( 503 \) 346 comp science , u oregon , eugene , \( 503 \) 346 \( fax \)
fraser sfu ca \( pat \) subject pctools windows demo organization simon fraser university , burnaby , b c , canada lines 18 elroy uh edu \( , dean e \) writes someone downloaded pctools demo compuserve , please upload cica ftp site thanks , dean elroy uh edu sorry , n't demo , program using past weeks since dos 6 well , n't use many features use pct desktop drag drop printing , folders folders , multiple desktops file manager far superior win 3 1 's fm pat cln etc bc ca
acorn co uk \( philip \) subject capturing screen shots \? organization acorn computers ltd , cambridge , england lines 17 article acorn co uk wrote trying capture 256 colour windows currently tried pressing copy screen clipboard paste clipboard windows paint package many thanks replies received couple people suggested could get paint package work properly , end took advice someone else try paintshop pro cica indiana edu thanks philip practice random kindness senseless acts beauty
nntp posting host 134 58 96 14 wimvh liris tew kuleuven ac \( wim van holder \) distribution world organization k u leuven applied economic sciences department subject head head win os 2 lines 31 article ehs unca edu , kepley photon phys unca edu writes article 1993may16 samba oit unc edu dil admin mhs unc edu \( dave laudicina \) writes question next question even want run os 2 big monster machine run , diverse think 're requirements os 2 considering os 2 multi threaded true multitasking os takes place dos windows , actually think requirements os 2 also think anyone using windows 3 1 without 8 megs ram , 386 40 , 200 megs hard drive space , beating head wall also legitimate requirements os 2 fact , requirements windows 3 1 os 2 equal ! \? since mankind consider twice equal \? \? natural progress things government gain ground liberty yield thomas jefferson brad kepley kepley photon phys unca edu 704 252 8330 voice days wim van holder universiteit leuven tel 32 \( 0 \) 16 28 57 16 departement e w fax 32 \( 0 \) 16 28 57 99 2 b 3000 leuven e mail wimvh liris tew kuleuven ac belgium cc1 kuleuven ac
cbnewsg cb att com \( brian reed \) subject terminal woes keywords terminal , modem organization distribution na lines 18 486 33 vlb machine , wang 96 24 fax modem using windows terminal application , way get modem change com2 , go back change com4 works fine \( set com4 port use \) n't anything plugged com2 , 've looked manual 's worth , missing \? modem jumpered com4 irq3 , understand means ca n't use second serial port modem time , i'm using second serial port anyway also , using procomm dos , always sees modem , n't always connect end answers n't know helps thanks , brian reed cbnewsg cb att com
prl philips nl \( peter r van \) subject ati graphics ultra pro problem ! lines 21 organization philips research following problem dell ati graphics ultra pro eisa start windows , first 5 times try run application , start windows show following error message error executing application enough memory run application first 5 tries , application want run start , afterwards problems change video driver mach 32 8514 , problem occur , suspect ati drivers \( tried build 55 build 59 driver \) anyone clue \? p r van philips research laboratories tel 31 40 prof 4 fax 31 40 aa eindhoven email prl philips nl netherlands
thg cam orl co uk \( tim glauert \) subject challenge microsoft supporters nntp posting host cam orl co uk organization olivetti research ltd , cambridge , england lines 34 article news duke edu , kdb sunbar mc duke edu \( kurt bollacker \) writes tim glauert \( thg cam orl co uk \) wrote words , opinion msw3 1 inferior competition 's msw3 1 objectively inferior technically inferior os guis listed ok , starting define criteria criterion , inferior i'm afraid n't actually proved shown aspects msw3 1 technically inferior systems said earlier , trying say trivially true aspects msw3 1 actually technically superior systems \( resource requirements , performace , device support , printer support , gui etc \) btw , 'd love see studies show unix x easy learn windows ! might even agree , balance , msw3 1 technically inferior competition still prove point another , perhaps incorrect range available applications \? base os cost \? cost applications \? cost hardware \? multi platform support \? quality sales service \? availability books training materials \? support visual physical \? use mobile computing \? quality documentation \? think technical excellence factor deciding os , indeed primary factor , need think
tom carter carter photon cem msu edu subject corrected origin package uploaded cica organization department chemistry , michigan state university lines 21 reply carter photon cem msu edu nntp posting host cem msu edu 've recently uploaded cica current \( v2 8 \) version working model origin , scientific technical 2d 3d graphics data analysis package windows 3 x working model 2d puts promo message , largely identical full version saving origin files disabled , save ascii data sets produced origin also says expiration date sept 1 , 1993 try may like , ! 's currently ftp cica indiana edu \( 129 79 20 17 \) directory pub pc win3 uploads zip file origin zip , unfortunately , incomplete \( sorry 'bout ! \) include std disclaimer tom carter carter photon cem msu edu michigan state university carter bitnet chemistry department
europa eng gtefsd com \( hal \) subject 386 mode scsi disk organization gte lines 9 reply europa eng gtefsd com \( hal \) nntp posting host eng gtefsd com removed ide drive two scsi disk use boot disk system run windows fine 386 enhanced mode dx50 8 meg ram , adaptec 1542b bios enabled system runs fine runs windows standard mode fine , returns dos prompt trying run 386 mode 've tried gives \? \? \? \? \? \? thanks advance , hal views !
mark tomlinson equinox gen nz \( mark \) subject com ports 5 8 summary keywords x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 organization equinox networks lines 8 anyone know standard port addresses com ports 5 8 \? \( standard sort ! \) please e mail , n't read group often mark tomlinson \( mark garden equinox gen nz \)
glang slee01 srl ford com \( gordon lang \) subject ide cable organization ford motor company research laboratory lines 50 nntp posting host slee01 srl ford com x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 vacsc0qe vax csun edu wrote bought new ide hard drive system go one already problem system ide cable one drive , buy cable two drive connectors , consequently switch cables problem , new hard drive 's manual refers matching pin 1 cable pin 1 drive pin 1 ide card life cannot figure tell way plug cable align ide drives dealt pin 2 labeled printed circuit board \( sufficient determine side \) ide drive label , look polarization notch receptacle \( connector drive pins \) receptacle center polarized , one rectangular notch 4 mm wide positioned center one side , identify pin 1 follows look pins notch top , pin 1 top right drives seen toward power connector pin pin 1 controller , well use criteria look hard labelling pin know end pin 1 2 pins 39 40 \( end \) , set need keep pin 1 end connected pin 1 end n't even look cable trace pin 1 side cable usually pin 1 cable identified different color \( red usually \) beware many cable makers careful seen cables pin 40 one marked red course non polarized connectors n't matter plug cable either way decide side pin 1 secondly , cable like connector two ends one figure one end goes controler two go drives matter plug master drive slave \? help appreciated thanks n't matter gets plugged matter drives jumpered \( amongst options \) two jumpers concerned drives one jumper select whether drive slave master master , second jumper selects whether slave present consult came drives , call manufacturers hotline number fax number one kind information routinely needed people like fax complete info jumpers n't convenient access fax machine , usually get voice help post specific question group \( probably wo n't able help \) good luck gordon lang
ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( adam c solomon \) subject know cornell systems \? distribution usa organization university buffalo lines 11 news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host ubvmsb cc buffalo edu subject says i'm wondering anyone net experiences cornell computer systems california checking ad computer shopper , seem good balance service , price , hardware question reliable \? e mail responses would appreciated thanks , adam ubvms cc buffalo edu
oz au \( brian wallis \) subject dfi handy scanner , talk \? organization computer systems pty ltd lines 11 distribution world nntp posting host oz au dfi handy scanner model hs little bit software running dos use 'd like make extensive use device \( particular , write driver unix \) , anyone give description talk device connects system via 's interface card info would help , ca n't difficult talk \) thanks , brian wallis computer systems pty ltd
glang slee01 srl ford com \( gordon lang \) subject ip numbers ethernet cards organization ford motor company research laboratory lines 30 nntp posting host slee01 srl ford com x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 tigger \( djohnson moose uvm edu \) wrote hi ! possible either pin configuration software programming change ip numbers ethernet card \? thanks advance ! dave tigger ! djohnson moose uvm edu wonderful things ! ' dave c johnson think mean ethernet numbers 8 byte ethernet id unique electronic serial number \( esn \) assigned ethernet board existence physical layer concept ip address higher layer protocol analogy telephone service ip address phone number , particular wire pair cable pole \( unknown \) physical identification scheme \( number \) answer question \( assuming indeed meant ethernet number \) supposed possible change number course manufacturer always retro fit board , could hardly reason ever question actually referring ip address , definetly strictly software gordon lang
flick cwis unomaha edu \( john anderson \) subject vga opinions organization university nebraska omaha lines 12 wondering anyone opinions svga card purchased one due great price boasts 16 7 million true colors , 1mb onboard know anything card , please respond via mail , group tends overwhelming times posts thanks advance ! ! ! john anderson views expressed usually u nebraska omaha , occasionally someone omaha , nebraska , usa internet flick cwis unomaha edu usually 100 correct !
b11 ingr com \( mark hall \) subject s3 video card different address keywords s3 video diamond addressing reply ingr ! b11 ! ! organization intergraph distribution usa lines 42 article austin ibm com , lance hartmann austin ibm com \( lance hartmann \) writes article umcc umcc umich edu jon umcc umcc umich edu \( jon \) writes 'd like add second s3 based video card system anyone know company sells card coexist another one \? really need color text one monitor fast color graphics probably configurable address would 's worth \( n't confirmed \) , diamond tech rep told s3 based video cards use port addresses true , appears cannot use one s3 card system actually s3 based card market supports multiple adapters one system unfortunately , vl bus \( may isa version \? \) company called address phone number corp science park 1600 nw compton dr beaverton , \( 503 \) 690 1550 aware , high end card , capable 4mb vram , come cheap , personally seen two boards running dual screen windows 3 1 lance hartmann \( lance hartmann austin ibm com ibmpa awdpa ibm com \) yes , ' ' \( percent sign \) network address statements , comments , opinions , etc herein reflect author shall misconstrued ibm anyone else matter mark hall intergraph corporation huntsville , al b11 ingr com \( 205 \) 730
ucsd edu \( \) subject 4sale always 2000 scsi card keywords 2000 lines 6 nntp posting host ucsd edu always 2000 scsi card sale w manuals , software , cables make best offer gyro ucsd edu
cbnewsm cb att com \( arlen r martin \) subject mitsumi sb pro organization distribution usa lines 18 article elroy uh edu elroy uh edu \( b j \) writes article 1993apr20 zip eecs umich edu , grover emunix emich edu \( grover thomas \) writes poke little pins connector , replace correct slots \? easy poke \? yep 've done , trick use tiny screwdriver push latch pin pull connector label one first tape n't get confused 've pulled compare pinout tables mitsumi soundblaster manuals get correct orientation arlen martin att ! !
cs utwente nl \( \) subject old keyboards never die nntp posting host cs utwente nl organization university twente , dept computer science lines 29 hello , i'am almost ask question really looks like faq , could n't find answer anyway original ibm pc xt 83 84 key keyboard , opinion , still best keyboard around function keys right place \( eh left place \) , firm click , etc chance connect one modern 386 clone \? understand new keyboard functionality e repeat rate programmable etc seams pins electrical specs old new keyboard , however , maybe communication protocol different \? please answer e mail also tell absolutely impossible case , bring keyboard museum obsolete technology thanks , tel 53 university twente fax 53 p box 217 internet cs utwente nl 7500 ae enschede netherlands ugly pictures sig !
guyd austin ibm com \( guy dawson \) subject ide vs scsi , dma detach originator guyd pal500 austin ibm com organization ibm austin lines 60 article 1993apr19 julian uwo ca , wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca \( wayne smith \) writes article richk gozer grebyn com richk grebyn com \( richard krehbiel \) writes anyone explain fairly simple terms , get os 2 , might need scsi controler rather ide performance suffer much \? 200mb drive \? n't tape drive cd rom \? help would appreciated , 've got multi tasking , want increase performance increasing amount overlapping one way dma bus mastering either make possible devices move data memory without interrupting cpu alternative cpu move data several scsi interface cards allow dma bus mastering bus mastering isa bus \? ide , however , defined standard interface created ibm pc , requires cpu move data bytes , dma 're talking isa \( \) bus , 1 dma channel active one time , presumably transferring data single device even though least 7 devices scsi bus , explain 7 devices dma transfers single scsi card isa bus time think ! 's scsi card dma transfers disks scsi card dma transfers containing data scsi devices attached wants important feature scsi ability detach device scsi bus devices typically used multi tasking os start transfers several devices device seeking data bus free commands data transfers devices ready transfer data bus send data ide bus start transfer bus busy disk data transfered typically 10 second lock processes wanting bus irrespective transfer time also , i'm still trying track copy ibm 's reference book , pc technical manual \( page 2 93 \) \( fdd \) adapter buffered bus uses system board direct memory access \( dma \) record data transfers expect see something similar pc hdd adapter lowly low density original pc fdd card used dma pc hdd controller n't ! \? ! \? makes real sense guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns co uk tel hoskyns uk 71 251 2128 guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa 512 838 3377
v10 syr ge com \( tom \) subject monitors close ac power source ok \? organization computer science , indiana university x status ns x mailer aster x 2 0 \( 360 \) lines 9 new monitor set approximately 3 4 feet ac power enters house fuse box safe monitor , emf emitted ac current eventually affect monitor \? , , damage permanent would degaussing fix \? thanks , tom
cosy ac \( gerhard \) subject nntp posting host organization university austria x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 21 weeks ago saw ad german magazine c't called interface pc 's parallel port video recorder backing data videotape company \( \? \) claims store 7 gb 300 minutes tape costs dm 250 \( usd 200 , think \) question anybody use product , yes , many bytes really fit 300 minutes tape \( 7 gb sounds quite unbelievable \) however , comments interface appreciated please mail replies directly , sum neccesary thanks advance gerhard \( cosy ac \)
j manning csc32 enet dec com \( john manning \) subject mitsumi sb pro organization digital equipment corporation distribution usa lines 22 article elroy uh edu , elroy uh edu \( b j \) writes article 1993apr20 zip eecs umich edu , grover emunix emich edu \( grover thomas \) writes poke little pins connector , replace correct slots \? easy poke \? well , tried method based responses several people either \( probable \) changed connector ended destroy connector , put heat shrink tubing individual pins plug sb connector correct order works great way turned fine certainly sounded easy based people 's experiences attempts go well john john manning opinions expressed j manning csc32 enet dec com represent digital equip
bjones llnl gov \( bob jones \) subject considering orchid vlb , seeking comments organization lawrence livermore national laboratory lines 8 distribution world nntp posting host bjones llnl gov summary none keywords orchid serious purchase 486dx 33 uses orchid vlb mother board , system also vlb ide fahrenheit video board n't seen heard bad comments board ! anyone comments good bad board \? considering board primarily orchid 's reputation long standing field thanks comments bob jones
vill edu \( \) subject help panasonic kx 1124 printer organization villanova university lines 17 news software vax vms vnews 1 4 b1 folks , panasonic kx 1124 \( inherited documentation \) giving problem cant resolve paper light refuses go starts blink ever turn power 2 beeps allow go line green light lit , red paper light also remains lit blink please give references manuals , dont thanking much advance sincerely
ch subject 16bit dma failure system halted organization university st , switzerland lines 21 486 50mhz isa board cache 16 megs ram bought new soundblaster 16 tried install card uses 16bit dma channel could select channel 5 7 first card ever installed uses 16bit dma transfer tested card first time , computer crashed got parity error system halted happens either dos also windows seems 16 bit dma channels working properly \( exe tests ok first access \) well , anybody know solution problem special test program dma problems \? eliminated problem using 8 bit dma channel makes system slow ! thanks help markus
chopin psu edu \( mark \) subject parity error system halted anyone ideas \? organization penn state university lines 19 nntp posting host chopin psu edu unfortunately failed mention error occurs parity error checking enabled disabled assume mean gives parity error 's enabled , 's disabled high count go memory check boot error occurs \? system beep 's pattern beeps \? error could occuring cache memory \( likely \) video memory , well simms fact ami bios conclusive determining board manufacturer either boards made thousands small taiwanese companies \( among others \) buy name brand chips put together simm sockets make board tend doubt problem ide controller , also anyway , perhaps answer questions someone help better mrb vivaldi psu edu psuvm psu edu
ee ualberta ca \( william jeremiah \) subject anyone give wd 27x jumper settings \? nntp posting host bode ee ualberta ca organization university alberta , edmonton canada lines 11 rll hard drive got another 32m hard drive controller machine wd 27x kind soul please mail tell get jumper settings board \? really appreciate thanks advance jerry look ! signature !
tmc spartan ac brocku ca \( tim ciceran \) subject trident 8800cs drivers win 3 1 \? organization brock university , st catharines ontario x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 24 fast eddie \( jmarttila finabo abo fi \) wrote hello 've got old trident 8800cs svga card , lacking suitable drivers windows 3 1 drivers 8900 series seem incompatible anyone idea get drivers \? address ftp site would nice thanks advance jouni jouni yo 11 b 25 , 20540 turku , finland 358 21 jmarttila abo fi jmarttila finabo jmarttila utu fi pgp key available via finger jmarttila abo fi find drivers wuarchive wustl edu msdos windows3 sub directory think files called zip zip latest drivers available far know tmc \( tmc spartan ac brocku ca \)
scott hpcvccl cv hp com \( scott linn \) subject ati build 59 drivers good \? nntp posting host hpcvccl cv hp com organization hewlett packard company , corvallis , oregon usa lines 13 hofkin software org \( bob hofkin \) writes build 59 causes 2 exceptions exit windows fact , happen builds 44 , shipped gateway system something wrong , problem commonly overlooked \? never exceptions build 44 , 50 , 59 drivers gw2000 dx266 scott linn scott hpcvccl cv hp com
guyd austin ibm com \( guy dawson \) subject cpu temperature vs cpu activity \? originator guyd pal500 austin ibm com organization ibm austin lines 33 article 1993apr21 11363 ucc su oz au , montuno physics su oz au \( lino montuno \) writes may naive question basis claim cpu get hotter computationally intensive job running \? friend claims little difference temperature idle cpu cpu running computationally intensive job first depends idle cpu ! i'm sure dos , many multitasking oss loop like loop anything \? yes goto loop goto loop cpu work still processing instructions also respond lino montuno guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns co uk tel hoskyns uk 71 251 2128 guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa 512 838 3377
canisius edu \( kevin \) subject micro solutions backpack working properly organization canisius college , buffalo ny lines 14 hello problem micro solutions backpack sometimes works , sometimes doesnt either start backup , start tape format , 20 percent get error either saying tape bad backup format aborted unknown reason turn everything wait half hour works fine tape backup warm \? anyone similar experiences \? thanks , kevin
west mail \( joe west \) subject bbs nntp software pc tcp nntp keywords gateway2000 lines 4 organization loral data systems distribution usa read bbs back thats bbs may started gateway2000 bbs start , , would let know newsgroup name please send information e mail e mail address joe west lds loral com thanks joe west
scott hpcvccl cv hp com \( scott linn \) subject amd i486 clones legal us \? ! \? ! \? ! nntp posting host hpcvccl cv hp com organization hewlett packard company , corvallis , oregon usa distribution na lines 16 rtsg mot com \( mark \) writes poe wharton upenn edu writes friend mine called phone told cnn saw report ruling prohibiting amd selling i486 clones thrown , making legal amd ship us yep , news great news consumers bad news intel stock dropped quite chunk announcement scott linn scott hpcvccl cv hp com
zander eclipse sheridanc ca \( mark zander \) subject modems noisy lines nntp posting host eclipse sheridanc ca organization college , ontario , canada lines 11 used lot line noise problems 1200 baud modem put transformer line easily done getting large toroid core local electronics shop , toroid core ceramic metal , wind telephone line center core around outside five six times easy cheap fix use fix hardware problem talk yah later mark mark zander sheridanc ca
poe wharton upenn edu subject bios fix diamond ss24x organization university pennsylvania lines 8 nntp posting host fred wharton upenn edu hello world posts 've heard bugs drivers hear diamond ships bios replacements people , fixes lot problems well new drivers anyone tell get mine \? thanks advance phil poe wharton upenn edu
glang slee01 srl ford com \( gordon lang \) subject 2 ide hds organization ford motor company research laboratory lines 33 nntp posting host slee01 srl ford com x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 volker voecking \( voecking informatik tu muenchen de \) wrote hello problems combining two ide hard disks \( seagate st3283a quantum \) single hard disk working fine , connecting together controller n't work questions anybody ever succesful using hard disks together jumper settings bios use \? possible controller reason troubles \? thing know ide harddisk controller many harddisks controller control \? case one \? thanks advance volker ide drives jumpers indicate master slave master , second jumper indicates slave present must set correctly according drive 's manufacturers spec cmos setup almost positively problem probably controller ide controllers support exactly two drives maximum check jumpers gordon lang
sdcc3 ucsd edu \( dennis lou \) subject cpu temperature vs cpu activity \? organization university california , san diego lines 40 nntp posting host sdcc3 ucsd edu article austin ibm com guyd austin ibm com \( guy dawson \) writes article 1993apr21 11363 ucc su oz au , montuno physics su oz au \( lino montuno \) writes may naive question basis claim cpu get hotter computationally intensive job running \? friend claims little difference temperature idle cpu cpu running computationally intensive job first depends idle cpu ! i'm sure dos , many multitasking oss loop like loop anything \? yes goto loop goto loop cpu work still processing instructions 've done asic digital design , cpu design would seem 486 , fpu used , cache accessed , chip buffers drivers idle , multiplier n't , barrel shifters n't shifting , microcode n't , etc means transistors n't switching means less power \( cmos \) , means less heat understand , pentium shuts sections cpu n't used order cut heat power dennis lou , everyone thought way \? ucsd edu 'd crazy think way ! backbone ! ucsd ! ucsd bitnet steve jobs steve went high school
wbarnes sura net \( bill barnes \) subject \( q \) scsi ide \( e 2 hard drives \) organization suranet , college park , md , usa , na , earth , milky way lines 27 nntp posting host sura net article 1993apr19 news cs brandeis edu luoma binah cc brandeis edu writes anyone \( successfully \) put scsi ide hard drives system \? would like know well , since bought 200mb seagate ide drive want add computer \( four year old gateway 386 20 \) , currently 80mb seagate scsi drive scsi controller docs told specify cmos setup , e hard drive settings listed installed , apparently scsi controller works wonders wondering problem also , remember , helped cousin install second ide drive , define master slave relationship need something similar \? particularly interested scsi boot drive help would appreciated , since intend install drive asap 'd like know \( \) start thanks ! william barnes suranet operations wbarnes sura net \( 301 \) 982 4600 voice \( 301 \) 982 4605 fax disclaimer n't speak suranet n't speak
subject debugging possible hardware problems organization andrews university andrews edu \( hernandez \) lines 27 suspect external cache , real evidence suggestions cause problem bad memory , bad motherboard , bad cache suggestions debug problem turn cache gcc big programs seemed crash 15 time gcc gave something like program got fatal signal 11 anything past complexity elvis , kermit , etc , got kernel general protection faults least session disabled cache suggested , bingo , linux stable rock \( n't given core dump kernel error yet \) one know cache would something like \? andrews edu programmers paid hour , suppose array x 1 1000 initialized \? programming pearls
glang slee01 srl ford com \( gordon lang \) subject help ! installing second ide drive organization ford motor company research laboratory lines 63 nntp posting host slee01 srl ford com x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 bill willis \( willisw willisw eng clemson edu \) wrote article iv darwin sura net wbarnes sura net \( bill barnes \) writes recently cousin got second internal ide drive \( seagate 210mb , look model number 's important \) 've trying help install 've got vested interest , since machine 's busted use get mine fixed already seagate 85mb ide hd \( , forget model number find \) anyway , ca n't seem get bloody thing 've managed get one drive \( disconnected \) , time whenever try , thing hangs bootup never gets past system test ide controller 's instruction sheet says supports two drives think 've configured cmos correctly power 's plugged properly even learned master slave relationship two hds supposed \( n't know pcs ! 8 \) think configured jumpers properly \( 85mb one master , new 210mb one slave \) deleted many , many thanks advance ! practically emergency \( two papers thing monday ! \) ! help ! william barnes suranet operations wbarnes sura net \( 301 \) 982 4600 voice \( 301 \) 982 4605 fax disclaimer n't speak suranet n't speak 've told local computer guru ca n't unless perform low level format existing hard drive set system two hard drives beginning took word , tried find , i'm going back everything add another hdd anyone knows sure scoop , would like know also thanks advance also bill willis 1 low level format ide drive unless executable supplied manufacturer available bbs 's mail mail version costs nominal fee 2 addition master slave jumper ide drive also another jumper indicate whether slave present get right ! 3 cabling issue long pin 1 goes pin 1 goes pin 1 twisting swapping ide cable sure pin 1 three components make assumptions \( guesses ok assumptions bad \) 4 cable jumpers correct , cmos setup correct , may fdisk followed high level format never personally found necesary , perhaps something gone wrong data disks \? probably understand probably throw salt shoulders , wear funny clothes sounding chant dancing around room someone said might help good luck gordon lang
lonewolf muse corp sun com \( peter pak \) subject 386 motherboard advice needed reply lonewolf muse corp sun com organization sun microsystems lines 13 nntp posting host muse corp sun com hi , anyone source 386dx 25 motherboards \? 've calling around local stores everyone appears stocking 386dx 33 40 386sx 25 33 motherboards difficult modify 386dx 40 motherboard run 25 mhz \? simple replacing system clock slower part \? thanks ! peter
com \( rich braun \) subject 2 printers pc lan \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? keywords 2 printers nntp posting host europa com organization jupiter technology inc waltham , lines 16 mac1 isis msstate edu \( mubashir cheema \) writes trying establish network \( lan \) could use 2 different printers panasonic printing receipts okidata letters etc possible world \? fundamental aspect novell 's business would n't n't live novell printing slogan run 6 printers varying types novell network i'm sure places hundreds rtfm capture command , , , sections windows 3 1 manual cover network printing n't bought novell 's products yet , rephrase question look information well various competitors printing rich
zippy com \( john switzer frame 3 0 \) subject cmos checksum error nntp posting host zippy organization network equipment technologies , redwood city lines 22 article 5v ulowell ulowell edu cs ulowell edu \( michael cook \) writes recently , getting cmos checksum error first turn computer n't happen everytime turn , predict going happen ami bios setting lost , example drive types password options however , date time remain correct anyone knows causing , please let know likely reason backup battery failing battery maintains contents cmos memory ac power turned , battery contents cmos lost checksum wrong \( along cmos data \) try replacing battery , however , pc n't use battery large capacitor power cmos , check see replace capacitor normal lithium battery n't possible , make sure leave pc half hour hour day keep capacitor charged 'd opt battery change , though 's also possible , unlikely rogue problem even virus corrupting cmos battery seems okay , get virus scanner check system
kato lahabra chevron com \( w r volz \) subject gateway flash bios upgrade organization chevron oil field research company lines 27 article 1993apr20 1 utxvms cc utexas edu , dcoleman utxvms cc utexas edu \( daniel coleman \) writes gateway 2000 released new flash bios update local bus systems i'm nice person , uploaded wuarchive wustl edu look glb05 exe msdos uploads section enjoy ! several questions 1 \) gain new bios \? 2 \) save copy old bios case want go back \? 3 \) install new bios \? 'd like enjoy , need answers first thanks bill volz chevron petroleum technology co earth model interpretation analysis division p box 446 , la habra , ca phone \( 310 \) 694 fax \( 310 \) 694
uxa cso uiuc edu \( g scott \) subject help 8088 80286 advice organization university illinois urbana lines 20 guf psuvm psu edu writes 8088 640k clone want except run 1 game want buy game says requires 80286 640k game tech support says game run 8088 uses digitized graphics would make run really slow \( 's card game classic card games , digitized graphics photos artwork game fictional card players \) speed game would run , short 80286 motherboard upgrade co processor \? accelerator card 80286 \? 8088 run 10 mhz advice would greatly appreciated 286 upgrade would probably cost 50 , 386 150 coprocessors accelerator cards would cost least much f b b feared merger uxa cso uiuc edu
ncu edu tw subject question setup video projector vga organization computer center , ncu , taiwan , r c lines 16 asked design video aid system teacher show students work way round windows seen people using video projector , tv set large size monitor display presentations told three ways connect video projector composite , c rgb anyone explain different three likely cost \? would also like know telnet kermit windows please reply via e well bulletin internet account ncu edu tw tim chen
redmond cs cmu edu \( redmond english \) subject diamond stealth help ! nntp posting host cs cmu edu organization school computer science , carnegie mellon lines 37 hello , diamond stealth vram card \( older version dip switches back \) two problems 1 \) 've lost manual ! ! ! 2 \) machine network card , everything works fine run windows , network connection dies \( case 's important , network card smc arcnet 8 bit compatable card 's address 's ram base address d000 's also using irq 2 \) believe file diamond bboard explains sort , manual , n't know bboard number , please help many following possible \) send diamond bbs number b \) e mail \( post \) dip switch settings card \( fax \( 412 \) 521 \) c \) tell i'm wrong , get everything working help would much appreciated thanks advance , red
cannon mksol dseg ti com \( christopher cannon \) subject 2mb ati ultra pro 16 24 bit windows drivers work \? organization texas instruments , inc lines 36 article ut emx uucp reza magellan ae utexas edu \( \) writes hi bought 486 dx2 66 gateway system 2 meg ati ultra pro video card everything seems work fine except windows drivers 800x600 24 bit , 800x600 1024x768 16 bit modes fonts icons start deteriorating windows startup , within minutes use , everything screen totally naturally , called gateway tech support inquire technician asked drivers , told version 1 5 , build 59 told 16 24 bit drivers pure bull 've 24 bit mode \( 640x480 800x600 \) working since version 59 \( \? \? 55 \? \? \) 59 added 24 bit option try getting drivers ftp cica indiana edu wuarchive ati ultra pro simply work ! ! ! true \? , i'm simply amazed could \? strange thing would expected see discussion \( unless subject made faq ! ! ! \) gateway 486 dx2 66 local bus 16 megs ram scsi hd cd rom ultrastor 34f local bus scsi controller ati ultra pro local bus 2mb vram dos 6 0 windows 3 1 mach 32 drivers version 1 5 \( build 59 \) mine gateway 486 dx2 50 lb 8 megs ram ide hd ati gup w 2mb \( installed upgrade \) 59 drivers cannon lobby ti com
pdb059 ipl jpl nasa gov \( paul bartholomew \) subject soundblaster irq port settings organization jet propulsion laboratory lines 28 distribution world nntp posting host kilimanjaro jpl nasa gov article shaman wv tek com , andrew frip wv tek com \( andrew klossner \) wrote lpt1 , com1 , disk controller call devices devices requires exclusive interrupt ownership , eg disk controller \( i6 \) keyboard \( i1 \) also devices require exclusive ownership , ie share interrupt another device , eg lpt1 standard isa bus , one almost non laptop pcs use , two separate interface cards cannot share interrupt due screwup bus design example , soundblaster wants drive interrupt number 7 , must hold certain bus wire 0 1 times , depending whether wants interrupt precludes letting another card assert interrupt number 7 two devices isa bus pc share interrupt , 's 're implemented single card interesting would care explain , soundblaster pro card printer card sharing irq 7 successfully \? assure set irq 7 problem computer dtk 286 12 ibm clone paul bartholomew pdb059 ipl jpl nasa gov
geop ubc ca \( william ng \) subject \( q \) scsi ide \( e 2 hard drives \) organization university b c geophysics astronomy lines 41 distribution world nntp posting host geop ubc ca article 1993apr19 news cs brandeis edu wbarnes sura net \( bill barnes \) writes anyone \( successfully \) put scsi ide hard drives system \? would like know well , since bought 200mb seagate ide drive want add computer \( four year old gateway 386 20 \) , currently 80mb seagate scsi drive scsi controller docs told specify cmos setup , e hard drive settings listed installed , apparently scsi controller works wonders wondering problem also , remember , helped cousin install second ide drive , define master slave relationship need something similar \? particularly interested scsi boot drive help would appreciated , since intend install drive asap 'd like know \( \) start thanks ! using ide \( mfm \) scsi drives years 2 ide 1 scsi one system 2 ide , 2 scsi disk , 1 scsi cdrom currently using always scsi card , also future domain , western digital scsi card , work recall , cards support boot floppy drive however , use controller \( ide , mfm \) boot drive ide \( mfm \) boot scsi controller system guys 2 drives \( 1 ide , 1 scsi \) set ide cmos setup make sure boot , set scsi controller \( irq , dma , etc \) set scsi drive id 0 plug play cards seen far 2 drives need driver third drive question , email , try answer good luck ! william
tdbear dvorak amd com \( tom barrett \) subject p24t organization advanced micro devices , inc austin , texas lines 16 article 17r usenet ins cwru edu rrn po cwru edu \( robert r novitskey \) writes anyone heard performance stats p24t wondering 's performance compared 486 66 pentium would info would helpful advertisement microtimes \( bay area mini computer shopper \) systems fremont graphic p24t performance based mips \( power meter v1 7 \) 486dx 33 14 15 , 486dx2 66 got 24 , p24t 66 got 44 45 tom tom barrett \( tdbear \) , sr engineer tom barrett amd com v 512 462 amd ms 520 5900 e ben white austin , tx f 512 462 n't take take hold n't leave chance archer views may company origin
cisko fnal gov \( greg cisko \) subject modem windows problems organization fermi national accelerator laboratory , batavia il lines 42 distribution world nntp posting host fnal gov article 1993apr12 magnus acs ohio state edu , magnus acs ohio state edu \( stassen lantz \) writes weekend \( replaced motherboard , upgraded dos 6 , ms windows 3 1 , experience windows application using modem 386dx 40 cpu \( amd \? \) ami bios card 2 serial , 1 parallel 1 game ports \( generic cheapo \) ide controller \( two hd , two fd \) internal packard bell 2400 modem mouse mouse set com1 , irq4 \( via jumper board parms mouse driver \) modem set com2 , irq3 \( jumpers modem board \) addition , think disabled second serial port card since unused mouse works fine 's deal procomm dos version works fine modem procomm windows , \( cim \) compuserve windows , terminal lockup try anything modem screen freezes , sound comes modem , messages screen i'm getting real frustrated could second port card still enabled \? would cause problem \? 've software routes , i'm believe maybe hardware problem anybody similar experience \? anybody ideas could try \? \? please \? \? \? thanks advance n stassen lantz ran problem upgraded 2400 modem 14400 modem time give modem reset command atz , windows computer locks give atz command dos , work solution give modem atz command thru windows procomm install process told program hayes compatible 2400 modem atz included initialization string works fine called ms , n't clue memory interupt conflict could lockup using windows comm program gives atz command
fnal gov \( mike \) subject g2k jumbo 250 backup problems organization fermi national accelerator laboratory , batavia il lines 5 distribution usa nntp posting host fnal gov keywords tape backup gateway jumbo told several people sony data cartridges n't quite cut jumbo 250 tape drive \( lots bad blocks \) 're using sony tape , try switching something else like maybe 3m mike
po cwru edu \( eric v wong \) subject plus hardcard owners help ! organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 12 reply po cwru edu \( eric v wong \) nntp posting host slc12 ins cwru edu hi , problem , 've lost software drivers setup programs hardcard someone email files , let know plus development \( bought quantum \? \) bbs phone \? hardcard ii thanks advance eric
guyd austin ibm com \( guy dawson \) subject 66dx2 math co pro vs 50dx originator guyd pal500 austin ibm com organization ibm austin lines 22 article lynx unm edu , teague mdc com \( chris teague 7 \) writes 486 cpu give better performance math intensive programs , 486 66 dx2 486 50 dx \? 486dx2 66 faster using dos pc mag reviewed bunch 486dx2 66 486dx50 66 faster review last month two thanks advance , chris teague guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns co uk tel hoskyns uk 71 251 2128 guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa 512 838 3377
dcoleman utxvms cc utexas edu \( daniel coleman \) subject gateway flash bios upgrade lines 38 nntp posting host blonde cc utexas edu organization university texas austin lines 38 article lhdsy1 lahabra chevron com , kato lahabra chevron com \( w r volz \) writes article 1993apr20 1 utxvms cc utexas edu , dcoleman utxvms cc utexas edu \( daniel coleman \) writes gateway 2000 released new flash bios update local bus systems i'm nice person , uploaded wuarchive wustl edu look glb05 exe msdos uploads section enjoy ! several questions 1 \) gain new bios \? 2 \) save copy old bios case want go back \? 3 \) install new bios \? 'd like enjoy , need answers first 1 \) fixes problems games leaving f 15 iii would , vain , try find floppy drive fixed n't know corrections made 2 \) comes image original , case things n't work 3 \) download glb05 exe format bootable floppy disk , n't put config sys autoexec bat run self extracting archive files explode disk run file fsh exe self explanatory dan p feeling generous , uploaded file ftp cica indiana daniel matthew coleman internet dcoleman utxvms cc utexas edu dcoleman ccwf cc utexas edu university texas austin decnet utxvms dcoleman electrical computer engineering bitnet dcoleman utxvms bitnet
dei unipd \( enrico il \) subject hardware image processing reply dei unipd organization universita' di , lines 27 research passive dynamic vision guided vehicle completed first part , make effective realization vehicle need necessary hardware image acquisition subsequent \( edge detection \) ask informations available products market purpose \( real time , 20 25 frames second \) hence need frame grabber cards dsp cards sun pc platform also interested receiving comments suggestions users cards , especially programming tools furthermore looking kind informations digital controlled pan tilt devices thanks advance best regards enrico dei unipd
christian robert ch subject conflict controller card organization university , switzerland lines 12 upgraded old 386 486dx 50 local bus motherboard two month ago bought controller card local bus card diamond stealth vlb try put new card new controller together system want boot stop controller card checking try change ami bios setup nothing works one thing disable rom bios adress controller card system one step checking system cache memory nothing thanks answer
thacker enh nist gov subject experience buying tc computers \? organization nist lines 9 i'm planning buy computer like tc 's ads tell anything company computers \? also , anyone company would prefer , please let know thanks thacker miami , fl
hobbit corp sgi com \( phil culver \) subject dos 6 0 nntp posting host hobbit corp sgi com organization silicon graphics , inc lines 32 386dx clone , dtc esdi controller toshiba 660 mbyte drive since installing dos 6 0 , tried install software 5 1 4 3 1 2 disks , mount second third fourth disks , dos 6 n't recognize changed floppies dir , see contents previous diskette way get dos recognize diskettes changed , label , label buying dos 6 0 mistake dos 5 0 stable , worked well equipment superstor pro , desqview x \( qemm , manifest , etc \) , n't features dos 6 using guess roll back dos 5 0 wary happen besides , like fool , n't dos 5 bootable disk anymore 've made mistakes caution users make like sheep , joined crowd flocking dos 6 system administrator phillip culver silicon graphics inc mtn view , ca
organization penn state labs x subliminal message share enjoy ! psuvm psu edu subject achieve multi io card jumpers needed lines 12 need jumper settings achieve io card usually found xt 's affecting video card forcing machine 40 col mode help \? hath spoken small obscure world somewhere middle nowhere particular nowhere , , could ever found , since protected vast field six men galaxy key raining 1
orville weyrich uunet uu net \( orville r weyrich \) subject wanted floppy controller handle multiple floppies reply uunet uu net ! weyrich ! orville organization weyrich computer consulting distribution usa lines 27 need duplicate bunch floppy disks \( 3 5 \) ideally would like able keep 2 4 floppies busy simultaneously single pc yes , know services exist know standard isa bus floppy controllers one drive active time know controllers available handle 4 floppies access know microchannel machines keep one floppy active simultaneously anyone controller isa bus pc simultaneously keep 2 4 floppies going \? eisa machine \? limitation software limitation , work around using os 2 1 3 pc 286 new used , i'm interested orville orville r weyrich , jr weyrich computer consulting certified data processor pob , scottsdale , az certified systems professional voice \( 602 \) 391 0821 certified computer programmer internet orville weyrich com freedom without responsibility uucp uunet ! weyrich ! orville
jimd cae prds cdx mot com \( jim \) subject ibm pc xt switches \? organization none distribution comp sys ibm pc hardware lines 13 old ibm pc xt motherboard two banks dip switches \( eight switches per bank \) need know switch required install hard disk anyone archived documentation would help \? thanks jim jimd cae prds cdx mot com jim email \( x 400 \) email mot com motorola codex k jimd cae prds cdx mot com c3 100 voice 617 821
elroy uh edu \( b j \) subject mitsumi sb pro organization university houston lines 9 distribution usa nntp posting host elroy uh edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article 1993apr20 zip eecs umich edu , grover emunix emich edu \( grover thomas \) writes poke little pins connector , replace correct slots \? easy poke \? regards , b j houston , texas usa n't believe coffee
meyers uenics evansville edu \( christopher h meyers \) subject internet servers university organization university evansville lines 32 university wanting buy couple servers provide email students \( 2300 \) faculty \( 250 \) two servers one provide news service one mail service proposed internet connection problems proposed set \? provided providing ethernet line cisco router network 2 x 486 dx 50 mhz smc elite 32 eisa nic dual 2 scsi 2 parts labor everything hard drives running unix application servers run cc mail campus wide novell network access hopefully aspect looking \? nic use \? enough disk space \? etc help would greatly appreciated christopher h meyers uunet meyers evansville edu university evansville academic computing technician let 's , say ! \( 812 \) 479
l p li1 lut ac uk \( dlp li \) subject 486dlc cpu reply l p li1 lut ac uk \( dlp li \) organization loughborough university , uk lines 11 netters , last post concerning cyrix 486dlc cpu , said benchmark program stated bug cyrix cpus true must apologize author actual program gives report f prot 2 07 , virus detection removal program report stated bug dlc sorry , sorry , sorry desmond li lut , uk
hofkin software org \( bob hofkin \) subject ati build 59 drivers good \? reply hofkin software org organization software productivity consortium x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 6 build 59 causes 2 exceptions exit windows fact , happen builds 44 , shipped gateway system something wrong , problem commonly overlooked \? bob hofkin
djohnson moose uvm edu \( tigger \) subject ip numbers ethernet cards organization university vermont division emba computer facility lines 12 hi ! possible either pin configuration software programming change ip numbers ethernet card \? thanks advance ! dave tigger ! djohnson moose uvm edu wonderful things ! ' dave c johnson
ac dal ca subject scsi ide 's difference \? organization dalhousie university , halifax , nova scotia , canada lines 18 stupid question new ibm pc user i'm going selling mac getting gateway 2000 difference ide hd scsi hd \? gw 486dx 33v comes 250mb western digital ide drive asked much seagate 500mb scsi drive guy asked going scsi \? lost answer said know seagate better company , satisfaction point view scsi drives faster ide \? i'm buying gw another 4 months , question bugged tom n
astrachan austlcm sps mot com \( paul astrachan \) subject feature connector vga cards nntp posting host 222 48 248 12 reply astrachan austlcm sps mot com \( paul astrachan \) organization motorola mos telecom lines 9 would someone please post email feature connector pin assignments \? sometimes referred aux video connector documentation thanks astrachan austlcm sps mot com paul astrachan motorola telecom astrachan austlcm sps mot com
mitre org \( mike white \) subject 've lost com4 ! help ! ! ! nntp posting host mac mitre org organization mitre corporation distribution na lines 15 386 clone , internal modem set com4 worked fine upgraded dos 6 0 time reloaded windows 3 1 system ca n't find com4 msd says com4 n , three four comm programs say hardware present similar error message procomm , however , finds modem problem works fine ! curiouser curiouser hints help \? thanks mike mitre org opinions
cray com \( david \) subject ca n't set com4 lines 27 nntp posting host cray com reply cray com organization cray research , inc article fnnews fnal gov , fnal gov \( mike \) writes also problem com4 g2k system gateway 2k 486dx 33 system ati video card \( identical system mentioned original posting , except 33mhz instead 66 \) reason , system refuses recognize com4 example , configure board \( motherboard \) com ports com1 com2 , everything fine configure com3 com4 , com3 works ok , com4 diagnostics shipped system , msd utility windows act port n't 's irq conflict , swap irqs com3 com4 , com3 still works \( com4 still n't \) actually noticed problem trying install 2 additional ports \( boca high speed 2s 1p card \) behavior boca card exactly \( e g would work com1 , com2 , com3 , com4 \) smell port conflict , ca n't imagine expansion cards installed machine video card , gateway would pretty stupid board com4 conflict something else motherboard ! anybody else problem \? ran six months ago system gw2000 486dx 66v , 8 megs ram , 1meg ati gup vlb seems problem ati graphics ultra pro card consumes com4 port reason , com1 3 available believe documented somewhere system manuals , ca n't recall dave
dplatt ntg com \( dave platt \) subject jumper settings ungermann bass ethernet card organization new technologies group distribution usa lines 16 anybody data sheet mentioned card \? bought one , sans manual local surplus shop , want try packet driver suite irq interface select jumpers pretty straightforward , n't settings \( also labelled a15 a18 \) could somebody tell settings four jumpers correspond addresses \? anything else card know , plug play \? dave platt voice \( 415 \) 813 domain dplatt ntg com uucp netcomsv ! ntg ! dplatt usnail new technologies group inc way , palo alto ca
cs ulowell edu \( michael cook \) subject cmos checksum error organization umass lowell computer science lines 10 recently , getting cmos checksum error first turn computer n't happen everytime turn , predict going happen ami bios setting lost , example drive types password options however , date time remain correct anyone knows causing , please let know thank , mike
sundaram egr msu edu \( divya sundaram \) subject power supply fan makes awful din \? organization michigan state university , college engineering lines 13 distribution usa nntp posting host frith egr msu edu hi , late computer 's power supply fan begun make lot noise \? get new power supply , get new case , good place selling good tower cases ps know couple dozen listed computer shopper , looking personal experiences recommendations divya live long , die slow horrible death confucius wanted say
teague mdc com \( chris teague 7 \) subject 66dx2 math co pro vs 50dx organization mdssc ssd lines 7 reply teague chris ssdgwy mdc com nntp posting host mdc com summary math performace 486 66dx2 vs 486 50dx x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 486 cpu give better performance math intensive programs , 486 66 dx2 486 50 dx \? thanks advance , chris teague
dudek acsu buffalo edu \( cybard \) subject modem problem dialtone summary comm software reports dialtone keywords modem , phone organization ub lines 20 nntp posting host autarch acsu buffalo edu 486dx 33 isa pc compatible \( insight \) internal 14 14 modem windows first put modem , pulled phone jack another room , ran phone line extension surge protector computer modem worked fine split line jack room , ran line room surge protector computer got regular phone plugged phone jack modem try use modem , says dialtone phone plugged back computer works fine tried unplugging phone , still dice phone line split many times \? \( n't understand could problem , since phone worked fine \) please note none software hardware parameters changed , phone line new modem faulty \? \? david thomas dudek ubvms bitnet cybard state university dudek sun acsu buffalo edu ` ' \) , , , new york music food love , \( \) buffalo play ! wm shakespeare ` \) '''
zhang ms ornl gov \( zhang \) subject need spec miniscribe hard drive reply zhang ms ornl gov \( zhang \) organization oak ridge national laboratory lines 21 need info regarding miniscribe 3 5 half height drive sticker following , model unique sticker biggest chip mfm interface , model spec drive \( cyl , heads , etc \) \? fast drive \? use rll drive \? also scsi interface seems match connectors drive description , model e p replace mfm interface scsi interface use drive scsi drive \? would drive size \? set jumpers scsi interface besides use \? could someone also send specs seagate \( 5 full height \) drive \? e mail zhang ms ornl gov thanks
glang slee01 srl ford com \( gordon lang \) subject null modem cable \? organization ford motor company research laboratory lines 134 nntp posting host slee01 srl ford com x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 kevin kimmell computer science german undergrad \( ke kimmell vax cns muskingum edu \) wrote interrested simple concept null modem cable \( actually idea , n't count last statement \) i'm asking pins use \( 's specifications \? \) want solder one instead buying one n't even know port used help please \( ke kimmell vax cns muskingum edu \) kevin p i'm intending use cable pc pc transfers \( via lap link telix ideas info gladly accepted \) specific knowledge lap link telix , recommendation package follow one 's instructions making null modem cable reason one may different since n't really standard pc pc communications following tutorial wrote give understanding rs 232 null modems , still check software ! couple details rs 232 rs 232 specification communicating computer modem actually end system communications hardware terminology used data terminal equipment \( dte \) data communications equipment \( dce \) rs 232 spells voltage levels , connector type , pinouts , signal protocols connector db 25 ibm set alternative standard db 9 primary signals transmit data \( td \) , recieve data \( rd \) , signal ground \( sg \) signals provide control dte dce example , dte announces powered ready participate communications via data terminal ready \( dtr \) signal dtr output dte input dce similarly , dce announces ready participate communications via data set ready \( dsr \) signal dsr input dte output dce ok 's five signals four interest request send \( rts \) signal output dte \( input dce \) used ask dce permission send data dce agrees , sends ok via clear send \( cts \) signal \( completeness , cts input dte output dce \) two signals \( interest \) ring indicator \( ri \) data carrier detect \( dcd \) inputs dte outputs dce ri would expect signal dte saying someone attempting establish connection dce rather specific modem telephone line setup dcd way dce announce connection established e local dce talking remote dce 's oh many rs 232 signals defined , obsolete explained nine signals pc pinouts follows name db 9 db 25 sg 5 7 td 3 2 rd 2 3 dtr 4 20 dsr 6 6 dcd 1 8 rts 7 4 cts 8 5 ri 9 22 address problem hand connect pc pc \( dte dte \) , dce pair middle therefore rs 232 signal definitions n't work quite right dce assert cts , dsr , dcd , ri common thing use signals also forget dtr rts outputs well done simply make null modem \( cable \) passes sg , crosses td rd \( e pin 2 one end connects pin 3 end , etc \) problem solution pc wants send data way knowing pc ready would send data hope got therefore better null modem would include dtr dsr pair crossed particular point confusion software area run wires mean soft ware use using built bios control serial port , bios dictates wires need used comm package brooklyn bridge , lap link telix , packages dictate cabling requirements thing guess reliably sg , td , rd dtr dsr also fairly common one issue needs addressed flow control rs 232 , dce 's responsible flow control assumed dce could n't possible run dte mean long dte dtr line asserted , dce send data without requesting permission first note contrast direction data flow dte must request permission asserting rts line must wait cts signal send dte dte , question need flow control \? usually \? non binary communications , one common technique xon xoff implemented software wires dedicated flow control td rd carry xon xoff commands type flow control used addition hardware flow control , problem ca n't send binary data data might include xon xoff codes cause erroneous signals \( work around software insert extract escape codes , hardware flow control prefered \) problem hard ware flow control standard lots ways bet tried one cornerstone methods use rts cts one direction beyond anything fair game , must look comm package cabling requirements bet 'll find one cable \( wired properly \) could work packages long vintage way , familiar one package uses rts cts dtr dsr flow control rts request send dtr ready recieve , cts clear send dsr request recieve mean cable software cabling stuff common uart directly controlled cts signal means cts must present even support ing software cases find cables short rts cts end \( perhaps dtr cts \) possible shorting might done software expects certain signals n't \( n't feel like providing would mean additional wires \) specifically talking dsr shorting dtr dsr good idea general may find cables like bad idea defeats whole purpose one gotcha signal dcd software \( including pc bios \) expects see dcd work signal sometimes gets shorted dtr favorite null modem rts cts shorted end , rts also connected end connected dcd course dtr dsr crossed td rd course sg must pass null modem works software flow control , , use rts dcd dtr dsr comm package specify cable required pc pc connection , suggest use one td rd rd td dtr dsr dsr dtr dcd rts rts dcd cts cts gordon lang
chris crayton ozonehole com \( chris crayton \) subject netware server 286a distribution world organization ozone online operations , inc new orleans , la reply chris crayton ozonehole com \( chris crayton \) lines 58 04 19 93 03 53 , wayne mcdougall unmitigated gall say wm software netware 286 level ii see burnt wm screen sft netware 286 level ii v2 0a however , configure netware wm level ii \( mirrored disks \) requires second disk , yes \? yes mirroring requires controller capable writing two disks , preferred way mirroring , uses two controller cards two disk drives requires special card two identical disk drives \( cases \) sometimes pulled slightly different drives controllers , long sizes wm novell server 286a normally configured \? configuration completely user wm 1 install sft netware 286 level ii v2 0a level , wm causing error \? one disk , ca n't use level ii sft however , disk serial number , disk different version netware would get error make sure disk actually belongs rest set floppies netware installation set wm 2 novell server 286a normally equipped two hard drives , wm one failed \? two drives could either two netware volumes sft , one volume mirrored using sft ii impossible tell network wm 3 would mean install network software wm hardware failed drive \? try failed drive , using standard disk controller , installing software one volume sft software install , one disk functional , able work configuration wm 4 else cause error \? see comment concerning serial number installation floppy wm 5 happens keycard fails \? keycard attached \? line noise provided south central bell ! blue wave qwk v2 10 ozone hole bbs private bulletin board service \( 504 \) 891 3142 3 full service nodes usrobotics 16 8k bps 10 gigs 100 , 000 files skydive new orleans ! rime network mail hub 500 usenet newsgroups please route questions inquiries postmaster ozonehole com
chris crayton ozonehole com \( chris crayton \) subject date stuck distribution world organization ozone online operations , inc new orleans , la reply chris crayton ozonehole com \( chris crayton \) lines 30 04 19 93 04 09 , john bongiovanni unmitigated gall say suddenly , date longer rolls time \( reasonably \) accurate allways , change date hand every morning involves exiting menu system get dos jb hear order date advance , something , like jb clock , make get date system call \? apparently , clock jb hardware interrupt bios n't \( date advance \) jb automatically get date call notices midnight reset flag jb set , advances date program uses dos call get system , resets flag tells bios passed midnight uses flag increment date menu call system get time midnight , bios sees midnight flag , bios know day passed date get updated might dos 's bios 's mixed \( darned cold messed brains \) well documented problem years n't know workaround hope helps ! two common elements universe hydrogen stupidity blue wave qwk v2 10 ozone hole bbs private bulletin board service \( 504 \) 891 3142 3 full service nodes usrobotics 16 8k bps 10 gigs 100 , 000 files skydive new orleans ! rime network mail hub 500 usenet newsgroups please route questions inquiries postmaster ozonehole com
chris crayton ozonehole com \( chris crayton \) subject ibm link imagewriter distribution world organization ozone online operations , inc new orleans , la reply chris crayton ozonehole com \( chris crayton \) lines 29 04 20 93 21 25 , larry henson unmitigated gall say lh hello , trying hook apple imagewriter ibm clone lh seem problem configuring lpt port accept lh adjust baud , parity , etc fit system \? tried mode , lh work anyone help , post e mail thanx lpt ports n't recognize baud , parity , etc settings might connect serial printer parallel port try attach serial port printer serial port pc use mode command set com port settings try c mode com1 , 9600 , n , 8 , 1 set port parameters use mode command redirect printer port lpt1 like c mode lpt1 com1 work good luck ! time flies like arrow fruit flies like banana blue wave qwk v2 10 ozone hole bbs private bulletin board service \( 504 \) 891 3142 3 full service nodes usrobotics 16 8k bps 10 gigs 100 , 000 files skydive new orleans ! rime network mail hub 500 usenet newsgroups please route questions inquiries postmaster ozonehole com
chris crayton ozonehole com \( chris crayton \) subject date stuck distribution world organization ozone online operations , inc new orleans , la reply chris crayton ozonehole com \( chris crayton \) lines 25 04 21 93 04 30 , michael shapiro unmitigated gall say ms dos system date twenty four hour clock rollover bit ms system crosses midnight , rollover bit turned ms subsequent reads time add one 's change possible ms \( information current dos 3 3 've checked ms see whether applies later versions \) small tidbit advent dos 3 3 later versions , ms added small feature dos time function program sets dos clock via dos system services , dos set bios clock value breaks isolation two clocks used ensure errors dos clock bleed bios clock sometimes microsoft people n't think ! \) fact mickey mouse wears al gore blue wave qwk v2 10 ozone hole bbs private bulletin board service \( 504 \) 891 3142 3 full service nodes usrobotics 16 8k bps 10 gigs 100 , 000 files skydive new orleans ! rime network mail hub 500 usenet newsgroups please route questions inquiries postmaster ozonehole com
chris crayton ozonehole com \( chris crayton \) subject put hd distribution world organization ozone online operations , inc new orleans , la reply chris crayton ozonehole com \( chris crayton \) lines 27 04 21 93 04 50 , r x getter unmitigated gall say rg may dumb question , need put hard drive rg father 's pc xt , either mfm , rll , ide know hook , rg tell computer geometry drive 386 , rg set bios , doubt 's 's done xt xt ide controllers responsible keeping track drive geometry getting information computer controller may come software update board bios , may designed work particular drive seagate drives usually special controllers use xt 's , drive also , cannot low level format ide drive low level format stored magnetic areas disk surface called \( like electronic use term \) need higher recording bias drive 's recording heads generate n't try low level format ide drive ! p e people eating tasty animals blue wave qwk v2 10 ozone hole bbs private bulletin board service \( 504 \) 891 3142 3 full service nodes usrobotics 16 8k bps 10 gigs 100 , 000 files skydive new orleans ! rime network mail hub 500 usenet newsgroups please route questions inquiries postmaster ozonehole com
chris crayton ozonehole com \( chris crayton \) subject buy bios \? distribution world organization ozone online operations , inc new orleans , la reply chris crayton ozonehole com \( chris crayton \) lines 29 04 21 93 04 51 , ikos unmitigated gall say ik i'm market upgrade bios phoenix 1 10 \( got new hard ik disk , discovered bios n't type 47 \) would like ik know purchase one things call phoenix put line replacement bios chips upgraded emerson 386 20 ide drive also , installing ide drive , bios setting total volume ide drive 's volume , try using ide drive usually respond variety different , long setting use equal smaller drive 's actual size controller necessary translation automatically , cases warning ! ! ! use bios setting even one byte larger actual size drive ! smaller setting harm drive , sorry go even one byte drive damage result , headaches ! backup found \( \) bort \( r \) etry \( p \) blue wave qwk v2 10 ozone hole bbs private bulletin board service \( 504 \) 891 3142 3 full service nodes usrobotics 16 8k bps 10 gigs 100 , 000 files skydive new orleans ! rime network mail hub 500 usenet newsgroups please route questions inquiries postmaster ozonehole com
chris crayton ozonehole com \( chris crayton \) subject modems noisy lines distribution world organization ozone online operations , inc new orleans , la reply chris crayton ozonehole com \( chris crayton \) lines 26 04 19 93 03 56 , juan carlos leon unmitigated gall say jcl got problem , cheapo 2400bps modem use jcl connect university , get much garbage screen jcl know 's noise line \( actually hear \) jcl question error correction protocol help eliminate jcl garbage \? , modem n't hardware , jcl software implemented protocol trick \? software version mnp 5 available , often connect modems mnp compatible , modem connecting n't support mnp wo n't help error correcting modems eliminate line noise , id error correcting modems ends added much worth price error correcting modems 9600 baud v 42bis modems reasonable , 15 slower expensive 14 , 400 modems market hard disk full ! maybe 'll try message section thing blue wave qwk v2 10 ozone hole bbs private bulletin board service \( 504 \) 891 3142 3 full service nodes usrobotics 16 8k bps 10 gigs 100 , 000 files skydive new orleans ! rime network mail hub 500 usenet newsgroups please route questions inquiries postmaster ozonehole com
chris crayton ozonehole com \( chris crayton \) subject gateway 2000 booting fr distribution world organization ozone online operations , inc new orleans , la reply chris crayton ozonehole com \( chris crayton \) lines 28 04 20 93 21 56 , tim king unmitigated gall say tk accidentally discovered floppy one particular tk box drive boot , rather getting tk non system diskette message , machine hangs cmos tk gets overwritten \( luckily , gateway sends print standard wild thought , small boot program every formatted diskette , whether contains system files small program prints non system disk error , dos program tries transfer control bios location nonstandard gateway , could clear bios n't think bios overwritten , usually small routine clear cmos area , case invalid configuration prevents machine booting think boot code fuji disks may inadvertantly call routine thought n't hit , mr moderator 'll go back topic swear ! blue wave qwk v2 10 ozone hole bbs private bulletin board service \( 504 \) 891 3142 3 full service nodes usrobotics 16 8k bps 10 gigs 100 , 000 files skydive new orleans ! rime network mail hub 500 usenet newsgroups please route questions inquiries postmaster ozonehole com
chris crayton ozonehole com \( chris crayton \) subject com ports 5 8 distribution world organization ozone online operations , inc new orleans , la reply chris crayton ozonehole com \( chris crayton \) lines 17 04 21 93 04 54 , mark unmitigated gall say anyone know standard port addresses com ports 5 8 \? \( standard sort ! \) standards pc com ports com2 de facto standards com 3 4 , guarenteed work ps 2 use 8 ports , think , n't know specs good luck ! tried contain , escaped blue wave qwk v2 10 ozone hole bbs private bulletin board service \( 504 \) 891 3142 3 full service nodes usrobotics 16 8k bps 10 gigs 100 , 000 files skydive new orleans ! rime network mail hub 500 usenet newsgroups please route questions inquiries postmaster ozonehole com
subject need help info hard drive terms carlson ucunix san uc edu \( david carlson \) organization university cincinnati lines 18 hi 've installing new hard drive recently run several terms i'm sure 1 \) hard soft 's difference \? know use \? 2 \) head cylinder understand related performance know 's optimal \? drive esdi drive , makes difference discussing terms info help greatly appreciated ! david \( carlson ucunix san uc edu \)
actor telerama pgh pa us \( philip r \) subject 1 type controller organization telerama public access internet , pittsburgh , pa lines 22 nntp posting host localhost x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 possible put 1 controller pc mean different types ie rll mfm access drives cmos setup show configured low level writes controller example put 1 rll controller 2 drives machine put mfm controller 2 drives connected 4 drives 2 controllers different types also put 2 controllers type pc access asked question never tried anyone done supply info would pleased thanx advance info philip r actor telerama pgh pa us aliases actor , mentor , poet , rpg , writing , computers , acting , reading , philosophy , disclaimer since know existance offend one
rmitch irus rri uwo ca \( ross mitchell \) subject 66dx2 isa , vlb xor 50dx eisa \? \? advice wanted organization university western ontario , london nntp posting host vega irus rri uwo ca lines 81 hi need advice \( opinions \? \) regarding pc would best suit needs ! want use \( proposed \) beast basically four things editing documents using wordperfect 5 1 \( dos \) creating graphs analyzing data using v5 0 \( dos \) editing playing images using aldus photostyler , running windows 3 1 images large , say 2k x 2k , 24bits pixel using pc xterminal , running desqview x 1 1 sun pc nfs , talking network sparcstation 's lot images data come , demanding tasks 've read , read , read pc magazines , performed benchmarks , read newsgroup , decided nice system \( price performance \) would 486dx 50 256k cache , isa , vlb , ram ati graphics ultra pro , 2 meg ram , local bus 15 monitor , 1280x1024 ni 3com etherlink iii 16bit maxtor ide hard drive however , parts n't fit ! local retailer apparently put one together , discover ati card would n't run 50mhz surprise surprise actually , reading group , i'm surprised even 50mhz local bus running choice basically system 486dx2 66 isa vlb , , 486dx 50 eisa vlb \( thus non local bus version ati card \) better , keeping mind i'm primarily interested last two tasks \? help would greatly appreciated ! \( need decide quickly , speedy help would appreciated even ! ! \) btw system perform tasks , following configuration 486dx 33 64k cache , isa , 8 meg ram ati graphics ultra , 2 meg ram 14 monitor , 1024x768 ni smc 8 bit maxtor 120mb ide hard drive 're quite happy ati card fast , data gets ! ! slow images photostyler moved screen , uncovered ! n't seem enough raw cpu running desqview x ! sluggish running local window manager also , many functions photostyler take long time \( even images fit entirely ram \) 's enough memory system desqview x 1 meg smartdrive n't leave much room apps photostyler page disk medium size images performed number benchmarks ethernet transfer rates machine 120k sec ethernet sparcs sustain 600k sec network going 16 bit version smc card increases transfer rates 160k sec still slow \( especially moving large images \) thing local bus ethernet card coming \? \? make difference \? i'm hoping , leaning towards 486dx2 66 choice \( \) , reason also , dx2 100 's horizon \? dx3 99 's \? dx3 150 's \? \? \? ! information greatly appreciated ross mitchell , imaging research lab , rmitch irus rri uwo ca john p robarts research institute p box , 100 perth drive office \( 519 \) 663 london , ontario , canada home \( 519 \) 657
cch coventry ac uk \( \) subject western digital 3 5 ide hd 's \? \? \? nntp posting host cc sysh organization ashtray \( short hair really annoys \) lines 19 peoples opinions make hard drives , seem found really good bargain drive thought 'd check anyone comments say make \? also i'm bit novice pc 's \( experienced computer user \) , connecting fitting drive one spare 5 1 4 bays extras need , cable starters \( guess \) , brackets etc also think might change jumpers drive original one 'll attaching second drive seperate ide socket controler card need change \? \? \? \? yet many thanks answered past answer future \) , artist , produced imagination skill oi ! ! yes , back , stop laughing ! 8 uk ac cov cch \( , skippy , , pick 1 \)
munoz bcstec ca boeing com \( david munoz \) subject put isa card eisa slot \? organization boeing computer services x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 14 howdy , netlanders put isa card eisa slot \? also , put 8 bit pc card isa slot \? please e mail possible , thanks ahead time , david munoz munoz bcstec boeing com
cck coventry ac uk \( crowley \) subject 3 5 floppy reads wrote nntp posting host cc sysk organization coventry university lines 27 article netx com netx com \( peter \) writes gateway 3 5 floppy drive reads files wrote floppy floppies formatted contain files machines unreadable also , 3 5 floppies written defective floppy drive long time ago also unreadable sounds like head alignment problem one go fixing \? alignment screws adjust \? thanks advance responses peter friend mine problem , turned floppy set 5 1 4 1 2mb drive instead 3 5 1 44mb might help matt crowley 'just remember 'll known , deep uk ac coventry cck inside , enough bastard worth liking '
rab ariel ucs unimelb edu au \( richard alan brown \) subject identify hd organization school physics , university melbourne lines 23 distribution world nntp posting host ariel ucs unimelb edu au actually scott afs ph unimelb edu au come across old external hard disk ca n't find specs anywhere made nec \( yes tried tech support help \) , model number apc labelled expansion hard disk anyone help figuring beast external connector looks like scsi plug , date drive chassis 1984 os 's pretty old want see , deep six rip apart bits thanks afs ph unimelb edu au
uxa cso uiuc edu \( james bond \) subject seagate hd jumper schematics summary seagate st3283a hd st3144a jumper schematics needed keywords seagate jumper schematics organization university illinois urbana lines 15 trying setup two seagate tech hard drives master slave system need jumper schematics two hard drives two seagate hd st3144a , st3283a , need setting schematics two thanx help advance aj uxa cso uiuc edu ideal wife woman ideal husband !
scholten nist gov \( robert scholten \) subject hot cpu \? organization nist distribution na lines 12 temp 486dx2 66 \( measured k type fluke 55 dig thermometer \) idle temp lots bus , floating point , 32 bit protected mode etc micron computer , without heatsink recently put heatsink fan chip , might take fan makes horrible whine times , wonder vibration pins cpu etc rob scholten scholten nist gov
gunnarh dhhalden \( gunnar \) subject 386 motherboard advice needed lines 37 nntp posting host organization ostfold college article 965 jethro corp sun com lonewolf muse corp sun com \( peter pak \) writes hi , anyone source 386dx 25 motherboards \? 've calling around local stores everyone appears stocking 386dx 33 40 386sx 25 33 motherboards difficult modify 386dx 40 motherboard run 25 mhz \? simple replacing system clock slower part \? thanks ! peter know work sun , 's really reason like fast computers suspect conspiracy trying drag intel mud con something \? really wish guys would make computers faster instead degrading others' n't go straight top run pentium 0 7 mhz 're \? seriously though bleeding hell want 386 40 run 25mhz \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \( insert smiley appropriate \) mail mail gunnarh dhhalden snail mail gunnar gunnarh dhhalden 17 n norway disclaimer posting may seem like insignificant rubbish first glance , read lines , surprised discover annals burt , world peace , oxford advanced readers dictionary , quantum physics made easy , easy use step step make time travelling device actually works
willmore iastate edu \( david willmore \) subject ide vs scsi organization iowa state university , ames ia lines 61 wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca \( wayne smith \) writes wayne amtower spacecoast org writes ide also uses dma techniques believe floppy controller also uses dma , boards also use dma dma big deal , nothing directly scsi simple 25 style ide controller use dma cpu performs data transfer string move instruction requires cpu stop transfer data smart drive controllers , ide scsi , transfer via dma controllers tend cost wether ide scsi get dma benefits , ide must sacrifice 's price advantage controller example , formatting tape , command issued controller bus released allow access devices bus greatly increases productivity , least , something else backing hard drive \) happens reading group thank software dos brains , could format floppies etc something else hardware support , dos \( least \) wo n't , nothing scsi floppies n't ide bus , arguement makes sense , n't ide issue processor controller board handles commands difference ide scsi scsi intelligent controller depend cpu fewer things , e ide drives needing processor transfer data long story , still use ide 486 except cdrom , thanks scsi , move machines , , scsi better standardized supported ibm clone machines , plan completely get rid ide stick dos 'll wonder ca n't ask ca n't unix os 2 type os miraculous things ide harddrive \( single \) scsi hard drive callback mechanism cpu make requests devices scsi bus go business later , device done , issues callback say data arrived function completed scsi cards also dma data memory without cpu , therefore allowing continue working ide supports concept callback see would win multitasking system \? david willmore willmore iastate edu death better dead greek david willmore ever noticed much look like \? lovely !
robinson sml cs psu edu \( andrew robinson \) subject put hd xt \? reply ultb isc rit edu 's message wed , 21 apr 1993 01 16 15 gmt nntp posting host sml cs psu edu lines 6 many \( \? \) xt drive controllers bios board handle low level formatting bios also allows set drive properly \( cylinders heads etc \) andy robinson cs psu edu
dittman dseg ti com \( eric dittman \) subject question irq2 irq9 organization texas instruments component test facility lines 9 8 bit serial card two ports port option using irq 2 , 3 , 4 5 also two serial ports multi card , ports set irq 3 , 4 , 5 , 7 9 posts 've read , get impression irq2 8 bit card irq9 multi card right \? eric dittman texas instruments component test facility dittman dseg ti com \( 214 \) 480 disclaimer even opinions found side road
schuster panix com \( michael schuster \) subject buy bios \? keywords bios , motherboard , phoenix , , microtimes organization panix public access internet unix , nyc distribution ba lines 15 article netcom com ikos netcom com \( ikos \) writes i'm market upgrade bios phoenix 1 10 \( got new hard disk , discovered bios n't type 47 \) would like know purchase one things , anybody help quest \? pick copy pc magazine byte , look classifieds small print ads back handful shops specialize bios upgrades mike schuster schuster panix com compuserve com schuster shell portal com genie
schuster panix com \( michael schuster \) subject put hd xt \? organization panix public access internet unix , nyc lines 25 article 1993apr21 ultb isc rit edu ultb isc rit edu \( r x getter \) writes may dumb question , need put hard drive father 's pc xt , either mfm , rll , ide know hook , tell computer geometry drive 386 , set bios , doubt 's 's done xt thought might software controller card , ide card xt 's saw n't come also , low level format 's computer \? \( assuming drive needs formatting \) since bios support st 506 interface hard disks xt , support must come bios extension rom \( mfm rll \) hard disk controller usually controller rom based low level format program \( common jump address 0005 type g 5 debug see \) small table drive knows sometimes selectable using jumpers card , sometimes enter manually menu failing , must use third party hd prep program like , disk manager , like ide drives come formatted already , since controller part drive mechanism , concerns geometry irrelevant plug go fdisk mike schuster schuster panix com compuserve com schuster shell portal com genie
jeff lab queensu ca \( wes garland \) subject cd rom drive help reply jeff lab queensu ca organization terminal velocity kingston lines 24 hello ! recently acquired cd rom drive , mitsumi \( mfg feb 93 \) hey , free \) i'm quite pleased performance , seems crash lot use exe came desqview 2 31 thoughts \? mainly happens bbs running background load program load program , n't crash , start disk , stop program start bbs ok , otherwise big problems \( ie , solved cold boot \) anybody mail help , would eternally grateful \( unfortunately , feed group little unreliable would appreciate could mail , means , post i'm sure somebody else would like know \) cheers , wes wes garland , queen 's university terminal velocity kingston kingston , ontario , canada fidonet 1 249 128 usenet access \( free \) jeff lab queensu ca \( school \) v 32bis 613 542 300 2400bps wes garland inc com \( home \) send email set full access account
hertz njit edu \( ken nakata cis \) subject vl bus hdd fdd controller ide hdd fdd controller \? organization new jersey institute technology , newark , n j lines 35 nntp posting host hertz njit edu article 1993apr21 grebyn com richk grebyn com \( richard krehbiel \) writes article hpsgm2 sgp hp com taybh hpsgm2 sgp hp com \( beng hang tay \) writes hi , buying quantum lps240at 245 mb hardisk deciding hdd fdd controller 32 bit vl bus hdd fdd controller faster 16 bit ide hdd fdd controller card \? , vl bus ide faster isa ide ide interface fundamentally nothing extension isa bus , hook vl bus 'll work fast slower two , meaning isa speed 's true ide bus uses signals similar name meaning counterpart isa bus \( ide bus \) signal timing n't isa signal timing vl ide bus card set jumpers set transfer rate 3 3mb sec 8 3mb sec \( manufacturer might correct numbers 3 3 byte sec 8 3 byte sec respectively \) cannot transfer data rate 8 3mb sec isa bus hear vl bus controller slower ide controller \? hand , would n't expect slower richard krehbiel richk grebyn com os 2 2 0 amigados 386 comes along ken nakata apologize incorrect , rude , impolite expressions mail post intended please consider english second language n't full understanding certain words phrase thank ken nakata , cis student , njit
khoo harvard edu subject upgrading processor 386 486 machines organization harvard university science center lines 43 case anyone wondering upgrading 386 486 class machine without spending lot money , looked replacing processor machines facts \( understand \) ps 2 model 70 model 80 , replace i386 chip either 1 \) cyrix 486dlc chip 130 increase processing power 60 normal , math functions chip run original clock speed , ie 16mhz machine cyrix 486dlc run 16mhz note windows use math functions , good upgrade running windows , 2 \) get kingston 486 platform 450 25mhz increase normal processing power 100 , running 25mhz originally increase speed math think continue run 25mhz even original processor runs slower speed also 3 \) kingston 486 platform 750 33mhz i486dx might speed math functions well , sure ps 2 model 70 ps 2 machine either non clock doubling i486dx \( ie runs either 25 33mhz \) , get intel overdrive chip \( really chip \) replace chip get 95 better normal math functions 25 50 mhz version overdrive chip costs 450 33 66mhz version costs 700 replacement 25mhz 486sx chip good deal provides math coprocessor 486sx note speed ratings overdrive chips maximum speed run 20mhz 486sx , overdrive chip run 20 40mhz , ie 20mhz externally 40mhz internally reason buy overdrive chip rated faster machine , get faster performance able buy chips merchants advertise back pc magazine pc week might want shop around prices vary need name phone number source particular chip , e mail , respond couple sources lawrence khoo khoo husc3 harvard edu lawrence khoo computer consultant khoo harvard edu \( 617 \) 496 econ dept , harvard u
hamish waikato ac nz subject need info organization university waikato , hamilton , new zealand lines 17 need find program scsi controller \( 16 bit dma scsi controller pc \( isa bus \) \) somebody point direction low level docs net \? get hold manufacturers \? actually make anyway \? docs \? tia ps n't ant bios docs , want know attack sucker ground level \( ie send scsi commands os 2 \) hamish , computer services , university waikato hamish waikato ac nz fax 64 7 computers disclaimer remember heard first ! human facts stubborn , statistics
mike tancsa mike tancsa canrem com subject help second hd install reply mike tancsa mike tancsa canrem com organization canada remote systems distribution comp lines 25 considering adding 386 system equipped maxtor hd , second maxtor 245 meg hd assume problem however , remember reading somewhere , needed reformat original drive \? true \? \? drive full really n't like idea installing everything floppy ! ! please e mail , post group mike mike tancsa internet 1 mdtancsa watarts uwaterloo ca waterloo , ontario 2 mike tancsa canrem com canada rosereader 2 10 entered crs canada remote systems toronto , ontario 416 629 7000 629 7044
manaster yu edu \( chaim manaster \) subject cfv comp publish cdrom hardware , multimedia , software organization university lines 225 nntp posting host rodan uu net c l l f r v e official call vote creation 3 newsgroups engaged interested areas relating publishing sort cdrom material please repost cfv newsgroup , listserver reflector think might group interested subject order reach broad audience possible every vote counts , make sure register want groups created proposed groups comp publish cdrom hardware comp publish cdrom software comp publish cdrom multimedia status unmoderated voting period appearance posting 23 59 est , 21 may 1993 vote votes must emailed manaster yu edu sent reply originator cfv \( manaster yu edu \) vote , simply copy example delete either yes group register vote creation group line containing yes example , considered respect particular group note group separate vote count may split vote groups abstain please provide name e mail address shown example email vote following example subject vote comp publish cdrom vote yes creation comp publish cdrom software vote yes creation comp publish cdrom hardware vote yes creation comp publish cdrom multimedia last name , first name \( e mail address \) voting rules one vote per user \( two different people cannot vote user name \) votes received voting period discarded anyone wants change previous vote may voting must indicate previously voted changing mind footnote changed vote discard previous vote email messages sent addresses must constitute unambiguous unconditional votes newsgroup creation proposed conditional votes accepted votes emailed addresses counted mailed replies posting discarded event one vote placed individual , first vote counted unless changed information supplied people voting final acknowledgment made end , time full vote made public ambiguous votes ambiguous votes follow specified format , make clear voter 's intent , , possible , returned senders clarification ambiguous votes cannot returned senders clarification provided identified final vote tally every vote counts feel free flood mail ! ! ! rationale rationale proposal need interested involved publishing cdrom materials forum discussion relating needs moment main discussion alt cd rom comp multimedia neither publishing focus lists serve general cdrom community focuses library , government network usage , several weeks ago none devoted publishing \( setup \) case list , ought , replacement regular usenet newsgroups reason division three groups natural partition interest hardware software topics , two main focal points software , e multimedia publishing topics cdrom xa , cdi , cd r , photo cd related formats would included well topics related cdrom publishing neither clearly hardware software related books , copyright issues legal matters , packaging , distribution , could included comp publish cdrom software , would multimedia topic relates way cdrom publishing , format , appropriate internet main focus comp publish cdrom software would topics index retrieval software , software , cdrom simulation software , hypertext , sgml , scanning imaging software , data capture software , data clean , compression , encryption etc relates publishing cdroms main focus comp publish cdrom multimedia would software aids multimedia authoring publishing process audio video main focus comp publish cdrom hardware would hardware relates cdrom publishing , well hardware data capture , sorts scanners data capture hardware , well information publishers need know hardware intended utilize \( hardware eventually play published cdrom \) including networks cdrom notes groups used topics reviews questions relating already published cdroms reviews questions relating general purpose cdrom drives like requests help installing cdrom drive general topics directed questions cdroms mounted directed bit listserv charter proposed charter comp publish cdrom software usenet newsgroup , comp publish cdrom software , newsgroup discussion following example topics , limited index retrieval software authoring software scanning imaging software ocr ocr cleanup hypertext sgml simulation \( cdrom \) software copyright legal issues related publishing cdroms topics related cdrom publishing proposed charter comp publish cdrom hardware usenet newsgroup , comp publish cdrom hardware , newsgroup discussion following example topics , limited cd r equipment data capture hardware scanners video audio capture hardware networking hardware midi hardware photo cd hardware publishing systems cdi dvi hardware compression encryption hardware hardware publishing topics proposed charter comp publish cdrom multimedia usenet newsgroup , comp publish cdrom multimedia newsgroup discussion following example topics , limited multimedia authoring software imaging software audio midi software color control software video editing software audio editing software multimedia utilities useful publishers integration text , image , audio video compression encryption multimedia multimedia copyright related legal issues multimedia databases hypertext multimedia publishing topics henry manaster email manaster yu edu brooklyn , ny disclaimer necessarily opinion anyone else \) \? \? \? \? !
rmbult01 starbase spd louisville edu \( robert bultman \) subject help dip switch settings ast hot shot 286 summary help dip switch settings ast 286 nntp posting host starbase spd louisville edu organization university louisville keywords hot shot 286 lines 16 could someone please tell dip switches back ast hot shot 286 accellerator card \? recently acquired card get docs information appreciated rob robert bultman speed scientific school university louisville internet rmbult01 starbase spd louisville edu robert bultman speed scientific school university louisville internet rmbult01 starbase spd louisville edu
ebosco us oracle com \( eric bosco \) subject body 4 meg ram leading edge \? \? nntp posting host monica us oracle com reply ebosco us oracle com organization oracle corp , redwood shores ca x disclaimer message written unauthenticated user oracle corporation opinions expressed user necessarily oracle lines 18 leading edge 486sx25 4 megs ram forms 4 1 meg simms simm two chips manufactured samsung 80ns salesman told leading edge 2300 motherboard extra parity bit built use mac simms tried using 4 megs pulled mac si \( 8 chip simms \) , got many windows protection faults parity errors guess use simms ones , ca n't find ! ! places called carry 3 8 9 chip simms anybody knows get memory good computer suggestions , please let know help truly appreciated eric ebosco us oracle com
kaw uucp \( workman \) subject 9600 baud reply kaw uucp \( ka workman \) organization aeronautical radio , inc , annapolis lines 2 've similar problems downloading using , discovered disabled data compression modem , works fine
linda cs su oz au \( linda distributed language \) subject help et4000 hicolor modes organization dept computer science , university sydney , australia keywords video , et4000 lines 21 body tell significant bit total horizontal width hides tseng labs et4000 15 16 24 bit dac \? trying use mode unix \( cant call int 10h \) program dumps contents card registers dos , sure trust extended registers et4000 anyway , problem mode , horizontal total register \( \) apparently set , index 1 \( displayed clocks \) set , nonsense resonable value would high bit , , \? also , one set video dot clock appropriate frequency \( would appropriate frequency \? \) documentation n't really clear \( tseng txt zip ftp site \) card 1024 1mb card seems tseng labs bios \( ver 8 05 think \) works nicely dos , well unix \( linux \) non hicolor modes great running x windows monitor take \( case \) please email answer , ca n't read news often thanks much , david
aurora cc monash edu au \( nicola brown \) subject programming beeper ! organization monash university x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 13 need able cause beep , without using interrupt routines , cannot use bios believe pic might something , i'm troubles information figure program ! i'm programming turbo c , makes diference please anyone help \? \? ! thanks , nicola
tso cephalo neusc bcm tmc edu \( dan ts'o \) subject 17 monitors organization baylor college medicine , houston , tx lines 23 nntp posting host cephalo neusc bcm tmc edu article cs mcgill ca gerardis cs mcgill ca \( gif emporium \) writes nec 5fg \( also available nec 5fge difference , accucolor \) experiences opinions people used nec 5fg would appreciated since want get one right exams done \( ie week \) 5fg think great n't seen nanao 's ca n't compare , 5fg image sharp color contrast extremely good 've used trinitron monitors \( e g sun color monitors , 19 trinitron \) , think 5fg least good , perhaps brighter , none silly horizontal lines running across btw , could wrong , thought 5fge slower well missing accucolor may able handle 1280x1024 way 5fg cheers , dan ts'o div neuroscience 713 798 3100 baylor college medicine 1 baylor plaza houston , tx tso cephalo neusc bcm tmc edu
ejhupper rs6000 cmp ilstu edu \( eric huppertz \) subject speed led 's gateway motherboard organization illinois state university lines 16 hi , recently got tower case gateway 486 33 file server , mostly needed extra drive bays better power supply case led 's processor speed , e 33 place plug motherboard \? , anyway hack something make work \? tia ! eric \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) eric j huppertz ejhupper ilstu edu \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) hey , n't rules come think \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) , n't rules
ggeorge bu edu \( gerry george \) subject archive controler lines 16 x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 frederic pierre \( fred sobel u fr \) wrote hello , i'm looking supplier archive tape drive controlers \( european preferred \) could provide card old 2 drive knows could find beast \? thank advance attention i'm similarly looking controllers archive even number contact archive \( whatever company called \) would help gerry george anything good life either school management , boston univ illegal , immoral internet ggeorge acs bu edu item three compu erve 2560 compuserve com categories causes cancer rats !
penev rockefeller edu \( penio penev \) subject modems noisy lines reply penev venezia rockefeller edu organization rockefeller university x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 x posted venezia rockefeller edu nntp posting host sol ctr columbia edu lines 17 21 apr 93 17 03 00 gmt chris crayton \( chris crayton ozonehole com \) wrote software version mnp 5 available , often connect modems mnp compatible , modem connecting n't support mnp wo n't help error correcting modems eliminate line noise , id error correcting modems ends added much worth price error correcting modems 9600 baud v 42bis modems reasonable , 15 slower expensive 14 , 400 modems market \? dealer \? repository \? details \? penio penev x7423 \( 212 \) 327 7423 \( w \) internet penev venezia rockefeller edu disclaimer oppinions mine
jim johnson abcd houghton mi us \( jim johnson \) subject cpu organization amiga central dispatch lines 52 n \( p got 66mhz 486dx2 system , considering getting fan n \( p cpu processor running hot touch think n \( p fairly good idea \( long ago electronics training read n \( p somewhere regions within chip define junctions gates etc n \( p slowly diffuse time increases temperature , hence hot n \( p chip goes spec sooner \) n \( p anyone got cpu fan \? \? work small pc oem offer personal professional system line 486 pro machines always cpu cooling fan dx2 dx 50 units n \( p 1 type \? several manufacturers n \( p remove cpu install fan \? sometimes depends specific fan model n \( p cpu fans derive power spare drive power lines \? ones 've seen many come 'y' connector , n't spare connector n \( p anyone trouble cpu fans \? none n \( p anyone evidence cpu fans complete waste money \? touch 486dx 50 chip running minutes wo n't feel fan waste ! n \( p fans attached \? \( glue \? clips \? melted cheese \? \) depends model many use clips make sure use heat sink grease , heat transfering tape , wasted money n \( p roughly much cooler cpu fan opposed without \? \( advert 've read claims vs \) tough tell know chip sheds lot heat slmr 2 1a murphy optimist data backed \? via v0 71a
glang slee01 srl ford com \( gordon lang \) subject serial parallel cables organization ford motor company research laboratory lines 24 distribution world nntp posting host slee01 srl ford com x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 serial cables three output signals td , dtr , rts five inputs signals rd , dsr , dcd , cts , ri many null modem dictated software ibm bios requires asserts dtr rts waits dsr cts sending bios recieve call made , asserts dtr waits dsr become true \( times returns error dsr never becomes true \) requires cts true sending recieving communications packages bypass replace protocol key comm package could well different requirements favorite cable works many cases short rts cts end , also run rts dcd opposite end td runs rd dtr runs dsr dte 's course sg goes sg never trouble null modem even though used comm package expecting rts go cts instead dcd advantage cable also works ibm bios gordon lang
com \( jonathan \) subject problems toshiba 3401 cdrom organization intelligent software products , inc lines 30 imj1 cunixa cc columbia edu \( imad jureidini \) writes hi ! recently purchased toshiba 3401 cdrom adaptec 1542b scsi card , far failed get cdrom work dos works well os 2 , know drive faulty config sys , sys , sys , sys autoexec bat , mscdex , came dos 6 0 mscdex seems find install drive drive f , switch drive try dir , get error message telling drive ready something like cdrom locked , adaptec utilities n't seem recognize cdrom point current adaptec drivers support toshiba 3401 get corel scsi drivers , support method used , works well corel 's phone number 1 \( 613 \) 728 satisfied user jb jonathan intelligent software products , inc \( 908 \) 248 1853 37 rd com edison , nj
penev rockefeller edu \( penio penev \) subject 66dx2 isa , vlb xor 50dx eisa \? \? advice wanted reply penev venezia rockefeller edu organization rockefeller university x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 x posted venezia rockefeller edu nntp posting host sol ctr columbia edu lines 88 thu , 22 apr 1993 00 22 31 gmt ross mitchell \( rmitch irus rri uwo ca \) wrote want use \( proposed \) beast basically four things editing documents using wordperfect 5 1 \( dos \) creating graphs analyzing data using v5 0 \( dos \) editing playing images using aldus photostyler , running windows 3 1 images large , say 2k x 2k , 24bits pixel using pc xterminal , running desqview x 1 1 sun pc nfs , talking network sparcstation 's lot images data come , demanding tasks 've read , read , read pc magazines , performed benchmarks , read newsgroup , decided nice system \( price performance \) would 486dx 50 256k cache , isa , vlb , ram ati graphics ultra pro , 2 meg ram , local bus 15 monitor , 1280x1024 ni 3com etherlink iii 16bit maxtor ide hard drive however , parts n't fit ! local retailer apparently put one together , discover ati card would n't run 50mhz surprise surprise actually , reading group , i'm surprised even 50mhz local bus running choice basically system 486dx2 66 isa vlb , , 486dx 50 eisa vlb \( thus non local bus version ati card \) better , keeping mind i'm primarily interested last two tasks \? mind size images , opinion go vlb much bandwith eisa , fact utilized card \( made measures , someone else may share experience \) also , dx2 66 faster operations , run internal cache , slightly slower external memory advice 66 vlb 're quite happy ati card fast , data gets ! ! slow images photostyler moved screen , uncovered ! n't seem enough raw cpu running desqview x ! sluggish running local window manager also , many functions photostyler take long time \( even images fit entirely ram \) 's enough memory system desqview x 1 meg smartdrive n't leave much room apps photostyler page disk medium size images tried running photostyler without cache \? need paging cache \( well , might argue , paging cached \) belief \( measurements \) apps left memory manage better smartdrv exe \( sys \) performed number benchmarks ethernet transfer rates machine 120k sec ethernet sparcs sustain 600k sec network going 16 bit version smc card increases transfer rates 160k sec still slow \( especially moving large images \) thing local bus ethernet card coming \? \? make difference \? i'm hoping , leaning towards 486dx2 66 choice \( \) , reason bandwidth \( theoretical \) isa 5mb , far 0 tried isa ide hard drive \( maxtor \) got results 0 regardless isa bus speed \( 5 5 8 25mhz \) guess , card drivers combination lousy also , dx2 100 's horizon \? dx3 99 's \? dx3 150 's \? \? \? ! rumors dx3 99 \( \) likely chip come note , ibm closest technology sell whole motherboards , 'll upgrade mb information greatly appreciated view , much figures penio penev x7423 \( 212 \) 327 7423 \( w \) internet penev venezia rockefeller edu disclaimer oppinions mine
penev rockefeller edu \( penio penev \) subject ide vs scsi reply penev venezia rockefeller edu organization rockefeller university x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 x posted venezia rockefeller edu nntp posting host sol ctr columbia edu lines 38 mon , 19 apr 1993 03 45 17 gmt wayne smith \( wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca \) wrote article richk gozer grebyn com richk grebyn com \( richard krehbiel \) writes , 've got multi tasking , want increase performance increasing amount overlapping one way dma bus mastering either make possible devices move data memory without interrupting cpu alternative cpu move data several scsi interface cards allow dma bus mastering bus mastering isa bus \? earlier post noted dma ide , however , defined standard interface created ibm pc , requires cpu move data bytes , dma 're talking isa \( \) bus , 1 dma channel active one time , presumably transferring data single device even though least 7 devices scsi bus , explain 7 devices dma transfers single scsi card isa bus time one time means imho single byte four sources dma requests ready , dma would service one bandwidth four together lower isa dma bandwidth , work note bus mastering priority mechanism dma controller penio penev x7423 \( 212 \) 327 7423 \( w \) internet penev venezia rockefeller edu disclaimer oppinions mine
ken mi org subject consumer warning midwest micro \( ohio \) organization consultant 's connection distribution na lines 54 thinking buying midwest micro ohio \? think carefully unless absolutely sure wo n't problems , may want trade elsewhere despite fact answer phone , hi ! i'm whoever 're great day ! , n't quite happy wanted return modem n't work expected details ordered one house brand 14 4 df internal fax modems reality , lightning fax paper sticker name given poor reports net modem , would ordered , known advance arrived time documentation stated would work \( \) com4 , providing com2 use time several reasons , serial card configured com1 com2 time installed modem , nothing connected com2 although modem appeared work , every connection 9600 14 4 , would randomly break connection hang phone spending time phone midwest 's tech support , suggested disabling com2 port appeared solve disconnect problem , unacceptable long term solution com1 2 available , even though would use time modem called back 20 minutes prior closing waited voicemail hell , listening repeated advertisements midwest micro products promptly disconnected apparently time n't want bothered callers waiting line called next day asked customer agent rma number promptly switched tech support rep implied equipment fault n't going give rma number suggested use nonstandard irq settings , solution happy modem work originally configured conclusion i'm sure modem would work ok basic system , clearly work multi port system like mine since time worth aggravation cost modem , gave local charitable organization \( description problem \) ordered practical peripherals 14 4mt pc connection 30 , solid external modem built company know support users sold company \( based personal experience \) treat right problem known better
iastate edu \( iastate edu \) subject scsi ide 's difference \? organization iowa state university , ames , ia lines 17 article 1993apr21 ac dal ca ac dal ca writes stupid question new ibm pc user i'm going selling mac getting gateway 2000 noises talk frying pan fire \) scsi drives faster ide \? i'm pretty sure scsi faster along lot better compatability alex iastate edu universe \( damn sig \)
jim n5ial mythical com \( jim graham \) subject courier vs sportster organization , \? \? \? must joking lines 121 note followups comp dcom modems \( obvious reasons \) article usenet ins cwru edu cleveland freenet edu \( andy nicola \) writes previous article , cs3sd3ae maccs mcmaster ca \( holly ks \) says difference us robotics courier v32bis external sportster 14400 external \? see price sportster dramatically dropped 200 price courier remains 400 anyone knowledge modems anyone owns courier \? courier top line product , thus higher price 've never taken real look sportster line \( couriers \) , 've gathered , 's basically entry level modem probably n't meet specifications courier i'm sure sportster line fully dsp driven like \( recent \) courier modems , upgrades future may issue , take grain salt 've never evaluated sportster , i'm going bits pieces 've heard want real answer , post question comp dcom modems 'll find people worked sportster personally , though , going look courier modems , 'd buy dual standard 'd get hst v 32bis fact , exactly \) i'm sitting looking usr ds right , correct incorrect statements folks , want get reliable answers modem uart questions , post comp dcom modems post groups , never know 'll get way answer \( may well get good answer may get something like one \) least cdm , someone posts complete utter bs , 'll see flurry folks correcting \( avoid spreading faulty info \) sportster 14 4 v 42 error control v 42 bis data compression lower speeds , absolutely nothing either ccitt recommendation v 42 v 42bis says operate modems running v 32bis v 42bis , course , currently standardized operation top v 42 \( primary mode operation , \) , 's far goes case 's confusion , v 42 v 42bis also supported courier line \( unless really ancient one \) difference courier , run 16 8 hst mode take second look original question previous article , cs3sd3ae maccs mcmaster ca \( holly ks \) says difference us robotics courier v32bis external see v 32bis \? question courier hst modem , courier dual standard courier v 32bis modem modem question support hst , period therefore support 16 8 kb hst also , courier hst courier dual standard modems support 16 8 kb version hst dual standard supports hst 14 4 kb even older models run hst 9 6 kb proprietary mode usr connect another type unit achieve speed hst usr 's proprietary modulation scheme 're talking hst , 're talking v 32bis v 32bis definitely proprietary modulation scheme sportster asynchronous transmissions well synchronous hst one way hope n't mean two sentences related way first , v 32 v 32bis synchronous asynchronous part ccitt recommendation \( e , part standard \) n't feature unique sportster \( looked appropriate chapter courier ds manual \) second , hst way '' correctly put , modulation scheme , meaning n't work speed directions hst operates 9 6 14 4 16 8 one direction , low speed back channel direction high speed channel goes direction higher data flow fine 're logged say , bbs , type one letter get screens info back , transfer files \( using \) , etc , course , penalty turnaround time high speed channel needs reverse directions v 32 v 32bis symmetrical , meaning transfer full data rate directions time third , synchronous vs asynchronous absolutely nothing symmetrical vs two completely different topics hst 's upgradeable v fast spec available , correctly put , courier line upgradeable whatever called 's complete large footprint courier modems \( like \) , 're l upgrade plan back upgrade small footprint variety , could eventually upgraded support v fast , cost two upgrades together pretty much put higher buying new modem later jim include std disclaimer h 73 de n5ial \( 4 \) internet jim n5ial mythical com j graham ieee org icbm 30 23n 86 32w amateur radio n5ial w4zbb \( ft walton beach , fl \) amtor selcal nial e mail information kamterm \( host mode kantronics tncs \)
jim n5ial mythical com \( jim graham \) subject modems uarts keywords modem , uart organization , \? \? \? must joking lines 26 article 1993apr20 ncsu edu eos ncsu edu \( ryan jeffrey \) writes couple questions 1 \) 16550 uart \? see response comp dcom modems answers btw , next time , must cross post groups , cross post instead posting multiple copies way , one copy article must transmitted network , one copy stored people 's disks \( except case brain damaged news software \) jim include std disclaimer h 73 de n5ial \( 4 \) internet jim n5ial mythical com j graham ieee org icbm 30 23n 86 32w amateur radio n5ial w4zbb \( ft walton beach , fl \) amtor selcal nial e mail information kamterm \( host mode kantronics tncs \)
csiro au \( phil \) subject loopback connector made \? organization csiro division , canberra , australia lines 38 skcgoh tartarus uwa edu au \( shaw goh \) writes 35002 4401 uwovax uwo ca wrote need know pins connect make loopback connector serial port build one loopback connector used test serial port thanks help steve ! ! ! ! ! ! ! skcgoh tartarus uwa edu au 25 pin serial loopback plug , need connect following pins pin 1 pin 7 pin 2 pin 3 pins 4 , 5 8 together pins 6 , 11 , 20 22 together pins 15 , 17 23 together , pin 18 pin 25 note lot pins redundant many implementations phil phil computer unit , csiro division australia life sexually transmitted disease 100 mortality rate
ab245 cleveland freenet edu \( sam latonia \) subject diamond stealth help ! organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 64 nntp posting host slc10 ins cwru edu article \( last \) newsgroups comp sys ibm pc hardware redmond cs cmu edu \( redmond english \) subject diamond stealth help ! date wed apr 21 16 54 39 1993 hello , diamond stealth vram card \( older version dip switches back \) two problems 1 \) 've lost manual ! ! ! 2 \) machine network card , everything works fine run windows , network connection dies \( case 's important , network card smc arcnet 8 bit compatable card 's address 's ram base address d000 's also using irq 2 \) shown 54 , press space , quit , 'h' help believe file diamond bboard explains sort , manual , n't know bboard number , please help many following possible \) send diamond bbs number b \) e mail \( post \) dip switch settings card \( fax \( 412 \) 521 \) c \) tell i'm wrong , get everything working help would much appreciated thanks advance , red end file , press return quit date thu apr 22 02 38 16 1993 redmond cs cmu edu subject diamond stealth help ! diamond bbs 2400 baud 1 408 730 1100 9600 baud 1 408 524 voice 1 408 736 2000 fax 1 408 730 sam press return continue gosh think installed virus called ms dos6 n't copy floppy burn love windows crash
jamesc netcom com \( james chuang \) subject info cyrix 486dru2 chip \? organization netcom online communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 64 seems lot questions regarding cyrix 386 compatible 486dlc 486dru2 info comes directly cyrix 's fast fax service also installing one chips ibm model 80 486dlc 486 instruction set compatible cpu fits 386dx socket \( pin grid array , pga \) dlc currently available 3 speeds 25 , 33 , 40 coprocessor board , software query return present guess emulate instructions math functions 386dx level without actual coprocessor internal cache 486dlc 1k cyrix literature claims 85 hit rate informal tests show cache accounts 10 performance boost enabled software overall performance boost 386dx 25 486dlc 25 60 benchmarks used nu si performance , cache enabled , par 386dx 40 256k external cpu cache , around performance 486sx 25 computer runs faster , dos 6 dblspace complaining company claims os 2 compatibility , n't test 486dru2 chip , commonly thought 486dru2 actually small daughterboard slightly larger 386dx , contains logic manage clock board plugs 386dx pga , 486dlc 33 40 plugs board guess board doubles frequency apparent cpu , insert wait states access rest system required info available cyrix anyway , available 386dx 16 , 386dx 20 double clock rates , get 32mhz 40mhz cyrix planning thing 50 , need put 50mhz first also tested motherboard , along cyrix coprocessor 64k external cache , performance 30 faster 25 , still significantly \( 25 \? \) slower actual intel 486dx imho , dlc great , low price upgrade people ca n't afford , ca n't install , new motherboard definitely worth paid , need 486dx 33 performance , wo n't cut i'm sure dlc 40 , think even matches performance , wo n't beat significant way last time posted info dlc , people sent quite bit mail , asking got got mine treasure chest peripherals , advertise computer shopper 1 800 677 486dlc 25 kit 179 00 liked chip much found supplier , became dealer interested chip , e mail , fax mail info i'm well aware net 's policy commercial use , post anymore info however , questions regarding 486dlc , 'll post jamesc 909 396 someone asks god , say yes !
ab245 cleveland freenet edu \( sam latonia \) subject hot cpu \? organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 42 nntp posting host slc10 ins cwru edu article \( last \) newsgroups comp sys ibm pc hardware scholten nist gov \( robert scholten \) subject hot cpu \? date wed apr 21 19 01 49 1993 temp 486dx2 66 \( measured k type fluke 55 dig thermometer \) idle temp lots bus , floating point , 32 bit protected mode etc micron computer , without heatsink recently put heatsink fan chip , might take fan makes horrible whine times , wonder vibration pins cpu etc rob scholten scholten nist gov end file , press return quit rob , n't worry whine fan go away 3 weeks use , mine vibration well something thought tower case mb mounted vertically mounted fan case blows air cpu heatsink instead work like charm , realy think whine goes away fan fan stop \( burn \) would ever know cpu goes smoke thats thinking parts together time assemble yet build controlled circuit turn speaker led temp goes normal operating range \( \) use radio shack junk 5 think one ! sam gosh think installed virus called ms dos6 n't copy floppy burn love windows crash
volkert kub nl \( volkert \) subject q pc ip \( mit \) get info install \? organization tilburg university , tilburg , netherlands nntp posting host kub nl lines 22 netters ! seen postings pc ip mit package 1986 \( \? \) full tcp ip fro dos machines anyone 's using \? want connect dos machine os 2 machine tell dos machine run \( sample config autoexec would great \) find nfs client understand telnet ftp client part package 've got crynwr package drivers , 's ! please point good source information cannot help regards , jv name j v address 4 4847 hw fax holland e mail volkert kub nl oooo oooo
ab245 cleveland freenet edu \( sam latonia \) subject upgrading processor 386 486 machines organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 61 nntp posting host slc10 ins cwru edu boy glad n't start one ps 2 computers started upgrade operation spending 235 amd386dxl 40 upgradable mother board midwest micro time upgrade bought intel 486dx2 50 cpu 350 finished still n't see ever made 486 50 cpu fast isa lb vesa boards test results taken mb 486dx2 50 cpu others x tal upgrades specs turbo mode tests fan heatsink kit isa bus x tal mhz cpu mhz cpu speed mhz mhz video chr ms 40 00 3 13 33mhz 40 544 62 37 00 40 00 4 10 40 544 62 37 00 50 000 486dx2 50 2 12 5mhz 50 041 167 22 441 53 6105 00 52 361 486dx2 50 2 13 52 703 176 03 464 81 6425 00 54 486dx2 50 2 13 5mhz 54 120 180 81 477 40 00 56 644 486dx2 50 3 9 56 220 189 46 500 25 00 66 666 486dx2 50 3 11 66 759 222 99 588 81 00 tests 486dx2 50 ran ice cold ! even room temp go ! 50 000 486dx50 \? 49 998 167 12 408 89 00 \? \? \? \? \? 486dx2 66 \? 84 234 224 00 372 00 00 cpu isa bus x tal mhz bus speed mhz speedstar 24x video card amd386dxl 40 40 000 2 20 00 mhz amd386dxl 40 40 000 3 13 33 mhz 00 chr ms amd386dxl 40 40 000 4 10 00 mhz 00 chr ms amd386dxl 40 40 000 5 8 00 mhz 00 chr ms amd386dxl 40 40 000 6 6 66 mhz tested 486dx2 50 50 000 2 12 51 mhz 6105 00 chr ms 486dx2 50 50 000 3 8 34 mhz tested 486dx2 50 50 000 4 6 25 mhz tested 486dx2 50 50 000 5 5 00 mhz tested 486dx2 50 50 000 6 4 16 mhz tested 486dx2 50 56 64 2 14 16 mhz 00 chr ms 486dx2 50 56 64 3 9 44 mhz 00 chr ms 486dx2 50 56 64 4 7 08 mhz tested 486dx2 50 56 64 5 5 66 mhz tested 486dx2 50 56 64 6 4 72 mhz tested 486dx2 50 66 66 2 16 67 mhz tested 486dx2 50 66 66 3 11 11 mhz 00 chr ms 486dx2 50 66 66 4 8 33 mhz tested 486dx2 50 66 66 5 6 67 mhz tested 486dx2 50 66 66 6 5 56 mhz tested 486dx2 50 54 12 2 13 53 mhz 00 chr ms 486dx2 50 52 36 2 13 17 mhz 6425 00 chr ms gosh think installed virus called ms dos6 n't copy floppy burn love windows crash
magnus acs ohio state edu \( stassen lantz \) subject help led connectors motherboard nntp posting host top magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university distribution usa lines 23 bought 386dx 40 motherboard 50 documentation everything appears work , except i'm trouble getting led connectors working 've looked manuals 4 motherboards , pin configuration n't look anything like board pin arrangement look familiar anyone \? \? \? hints find information \? 1 10 speaker keylock 11 20 board came jumper vertically across two pins get power keylock work across pins 11 15 , reset across pins 9 19 , would prefer blow something experimentation date board 6 92 , opti chips would really appreciate help , thank advance n stassen lantz
lance hartmann austin ibm com \( lance hartmann \) subject diamond stealth help ! summary address irq conflicts reply lance hartmann austin ibm com ibmpa awdpa ibm com organization ibm , austin keywords video s3 diamond lines 42 article usenet ins cwru edu ab245 cleveland freenet edu \( sam latonia \) writes article \( last \) newsgroups comp sys ibm pc hardware redmond cs cmu edu \( redmond english \) subject diamond stealth help ! date wed apr 21 16 54 39 1993 hello , diamond stealth vram card \( older version dip switches back \) two problems 1 \) 've lost manual ! ! ! 2 \) machine network card , everything works fine run windows , network connection dies \( case 's important , network card smc arcnet 8 bit compatable card 's address 's ram base address d000 's also using irq 2 \) remainder deleted n't copy manual right , offer following interim 1 \) card uses port addresses \( configurable \) addresses , incidentally , inadvertantly omitted version manual 2 \) believe dip controls whether enable irq 2 \( cga ega support \? \? ! \? \) lance hartmann \( lance hartmann austin ibm com ibmpa awdpa ibm com \) yes , ' ' \( percent sign \) network address statements , comments , opinions , etc herein reflect author shall misconstrued ibm anyone else matter
cisko fnal gov \( greg cisko \) subject vcpi memory standard organization fermi national accelerator laboratory , batavia il lines 6 distribution world nntp posting host fnal gov read article another group mentions never heard vcpi memory standard someone explain \? \? \? thanks greg cisko
ab245 cleveland freenet edu \( sam latonia \) subject consumer warning midwest micro \( ohio \) organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 17 nntp posting host slc10 ins cwru edu must say customer midwest micro 4 years , well taken care purchase many friends bought modem \( \) experience setting modems , problems 6 know fact time valuable spend modem went wrong say must tell 12 yes say 12 ppi modems past trying use bbs junk replace 3 times , ther point said forget wanted money back ppi 's teck even said n't even repair strip parts good junk thr rest modem think fault midwest 's sam gosh think installed virus called ms dos6 n't copy floppy burn love windows crash
subject 32 bit box gateway grm vax1 mankato msus edu organization mankato state university lines 18 dir article 1993apr16 cv hp com , scott hpcvccl cv hp com \( scott linn \) writes playing around gateway 2000 local bus machine last night , became apparent windows 3 1 n't give option 32 bit access virtual memory using permanent swap file , disk drive local bus interface expected , investigating 32 bit option appears \? thanks help scott linn scott hpcvccl cv hp com
w8sdz tacom emh1 army mil \( keith petersen \) subject date stuck organization simtel20 archives lines 76 nntp posting host tacom emh1 army mil directory pd1 msdos filename type length date description zip b keep dos time synch battery clock chip index files wsmr simtel20 army mil ms dos collection available two formats directory pd1 msdos filename type description zip b comma list msdos files w zip b text format list msdos files w files updated every 7 10 days see directory details simtel20 allows nine anonymous ftp logins weekday prime time , 5am mountain time \( gmt 7 \) , 27 otherwise simtel20 files also available anonymous ftp mirror sites oak oakland edu \( 141 210 10 117 \) , wuarchive wustl edu \( 128 252 135 4 \) , archive orst edu \( 128 193 2 13 \) , ftp uu net \( 137 39 1 9 \) , nic funet fi \( 128 214 6 100 \) , src doc ic ac uk \( 146 169 3 7 \) , nic switch ch \( 130 59 1 40 \) , archie au \( 139 130 4 6 \) , edu tw \( 140 111 3 21 \) , e mail bitnet earn file servers , uucp uunet 's 1 900 got srcs see uunet file uunet ! info archive help details oak oakland edu primary mirror site wsmr simtel20 army mil mirrors \( except wuarchive \) listserv trickle servers get simtel20 files oak instead simtel20 much faster allows simultaneous ftp connections oak always sync simtel20 maintain , addition duties simtel20 run oak 's mirror program whenever new files added simtel20 msdos ann tacom emh1 army mil one way \( moderated \) mailing list used internet ms dos archive managers announce new additions collections announcements posted mailing list also posted usenet newsgroup comp archives msdos announce host usenet news please subscribe msdos ann add mailing list send e mail listserv tacom emh1 army mil command body message subscribe msdos ann subscribe something account mail coming , local redistribution list , add address subscribe command example , subscribe local msdos ann subscribe local msdos ann domain net msdos ann please include signature may confuse server send mail word help body message get complete list commands syntax later change mind wish unsubscribe , send e mail address subscribed send listserv tacom emh1 army mil command body message unsubscribe msdos ann server mailing lists information files send program files keith keith petersen maintainer ms dos archive wsmr simtel20 army mil 192 88 110 20 internet w8sdz tacom emh1 army mil w8sdz vela acs oakland edu uucp uunet ! umich ! vela ! w8sdz bitnet w8sdz oakland
ab245 cleveland freenet edu \( sam latonia \) subject consumer warning midwest micro \( ohio \) organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 28 nntp posting host slc10 ins cwru edu ran time last reply string n't know sent never heard anyone return something 30 grace problem midwest micro may thought n't know suggested correct problem sounded n't give much chance correct things fact ppi worked okay setup nothing user ca n't understand instruction commands configure system find things like fact ec led looks like connected another ec modem , n't realy say tells ec turned , modem think led nothing light hype product like bet someone took home extra last year giving ppi modems pc magazine award year \( 12 \) saw test bench could go hours end problems found ppi modems try control even go 6 weeks took ppi credit card back modems received back go one go talking parent co co hayes 'll say hope like new modem maybe someone understand setup modem get one sent back , maybe good friend mine hope ! gosh think installed virus called ms dos6 n't copy floppy burn love windows crash
ucs usl edu \( hebert marc \) subject needed videotaped pc output organization univ southwestern la , lafayette lines 6 i'm need videotaped copy pc \( pd \) program please let know marc dna ucs usl edu
ch \( frederic \) subject help ! eisa board configuration problems keywords eisa organization university ch lines 18 bought new eisa motherboard adaptec 1742a fast scsi controller wanted install aha 1742a written manual cfg utility told get newer version adaptec configuration overlay file named , old one compatible motherboard adaptec driver utility version 3 0 help \? please name frederic adress university , ch 1700 switzerland e mail bitnet
cbnewsj cb att com \( jgm \) subject info port requested \? \? \? organization lines 20 , attempts find harddisk controller works stumbled across port normal controller ports range , port \? \? \? information upto port write port information write related number heads disks could somebody shed light give missing info thanks , ns nl netherlands email cbnewsj att com
smoke marlboro vt us \( john hood \) subject ca n't set com4 keywords g2k organization domestic bunny breeder 's association distribution usa lines 14 article 67 cbnewsh cb att com k4bnc cbnewsh cb att com \( john siegel \) writes unable get com 4 work diagnostic programs msd show nothing installed think software options ok known hardware conflict workaround cd rom system g2k 486dx2 66 tower ati video card 's video card 's 8514 compatible , means uses addresses com4 jh john hood cthulhu imagine ! smoke marlboro vt us
johnn eskimo com \( john navitsky \) subject monitors nanao \? article eskimo c5uw1t 3hi organization eskimo north \( 206 \) 367 3837 seattle , wa lines 30 hello , 've following discussions 17 monitors comp sys ibm pc hardware noted nanao seems get good reviews i'm interested getting information nanao 's products well others may fit bill would like monitor handle high resolutions like 1024x1024 ni i'm using monitor amiga 4000 amiga 2000 w graphics board like retina , sun like sparcstation lx basically want high resolution monitor monitor need large \( 17 \) meets brief requirements outlined 've happy 16 suns could probably cope smaller home i'm interested anyone details high quality sony hitatchi monitors since seem used sun 's fairly often look pretty good \( least \) n't seem brought c p h often mag viewsonic ok , stuff 'd like find get ahold nanao \? products line \? technical specs \? esp scan freq max resolutions handle \? 's list street cost avail third party , get ahold \? info sony hitatchi thank much ! ! , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , , ` , , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , eskimo com , ` , ` , ` , , ` , right today , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` ,
davidb deimos ucs umass edu \( david \) subject h e l p ! ! ! get com3 port working \? organization university massachusetts , amherst lines 25 distribution world nntp posting host deimos ucs umass edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 hello , 2 months 've attempted get either 3rd 4th serial port working system various systems diagnostics \( e g , msd , norton \) tell 's , anything hook ca n't use two serial ports motherboard set internal fax modem com4 utility programs report com3 've checked make sure irqs addresses correctly \( listed manuals \) set missing something basic \? go \? help , even point right direction , would appreciated david davidb student umass edu
informatik rwth aachen de \( ralf g r \) subject unix dos talking qic 150 tapes organization informatik rwth aachen lines 21 nntp posting host informatik rwth aachen de mime version 1 0 content type text plain charset us ascii content transfer encoding 7bit quest uucp \( kevin \) writes system scsi drive want get qic 150 tape unit attach , run software read \( maybe even write \) unix tar tapes \( least read stream dump file 'll take \) impossible \? n't \) use tar un x box zip dos box needs aspi driver ralf ralf g r , aachen university technology ee \( comp eng \) student snail h str 42 , , fed rep germany phone \( 49 \) 22 61 2 19 68 \( mach \) note new zip \( \) july 1st email pool informatik rwth aachen de
mw rrz uni koeln de \( markus \) subject soundblaster irq port settings organization reg computing center , university cologne lines 21 distribution world reply mw uni koeln de nntp posting host uni koeln de article pdb059 kilimanjaro jpl nasa gov , pdb059 ipl jpl nasa gov \( paul bartholomew \) writes two devices isa bus pc share interrupt , 's 're implemented single card interesting would care explain , soundblaster pro card printer card sharing irq 7 successfully \? assure set irq 7 problem computer dtk 286 12 ibm clone paul bartholomew pdb059 ipl jpl nasa gov configure devices irq long n't use simultaneously , dos least lpt1 sb sit tell something ca n't configure soundblaster irq7 got ethernet card hits irq thousand times per second markus
victor comms ee man ac uk \( victor buttigieg \) subject cpu temperature vs cpu activity \? organization manchester computing centre x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 30 lino montuno \( montuno physics su oz au \) wrote may naive question basis claim cpu get hotter computationally intensive job running \? friend claims little difference temperature idle cpu cpu running computationally intensive job lino montuno totally agree friend , since cpu apparently idle still fact away millions instructions per second \( checking keyboard input instance \) exception cpu 's used laptops , cpu enter idle state preserving current status absolutely nothing case needs hardware interrupt get going victor buttigieg e mail victor uk ac man ee comms communications research group university manchester
edb tih \( terje , \) subject switch settings 38 reply edb tih posting front end conference v 92 05 15 1 20 \( running ms windows \) lines 13 hi ! recently got hold old obsolete pc first thing trying , making work seems switches back since last used , manual anybody help identify beast , mail switch settings \? know 38 , made 1986 , likely 286 , 4 77 8 mhz , looks like changes made information would appreciated terje trondheim college engineering , norway conscience became bad died
europa tomcat raleigh ibm com \( welch bryan \) subject always 2000 decent \? nntp posting host tomcat raleigh ibm com organization ibm , research triangle park , north carolina lines 16 've got 2000 working \( wimpy \) presently months i'm getting 486 motherboard probably toshiba cdrom need special drivers getting work \? exist \? basically , feasible , expect getting newer , faster scsi card \? thanks , bryan bryan welch amateur radio n0sfg internet europa vnet ibm com \( best \) , bwelch scf nmsu edu everything perish save love music scots gaelic proverb disclaimer 's opinion everything
kirk fmi uni passau de \( thomas \) subject fooling check existance keyboard resistor \? organization universitaet passau , germany lines 19 nntp posting host bones fmi uni passau de hi , following problem use computer special purposes n't monitor keyboard connected monitor n't program keyboard ca n't disable keyboard bios setup \( fact , setup \) spoke someone said fooled bios simply using self made connector connects two pins via resistor pity , pity lost contact person getting detail anyone experts help \? thanks hints , even vague ones \) thomas thomas , erich , robert engel , kirk fmi uni passau de , , franz , , franz 1 88 , , else , , w passau , germany ich ! !
mark physchem ox ac uk \( mark jackson \) subject help adding scsi drive originator mark joule pcl organization physical chemistry laboratory , south parks road , oxford ox1 3qz lines 61 article 1993apr19 195301 oracle us oracle com , ebosco us oracle com \( eric bosco \) writes 486sx25 computer 105 mg seagate ide drive controler built motherboard want add scsi drive \( quantum prodrive 425 mg formatted \) documentation need help ! understand , process adding drive could please tell i'm right 1 buy scsi contoler one \? know adaptec good , kind expensive good boards 100 region \? want compatible os2 unix possible also , seen net scsi scsi2 drives true \? adapter need drive \? type drive quantum \? tried others , think adaptec best value money 2 connect drive adapter via scsi cable power cable worry power supply \? think 200 watts i'm powering two floppies seagate drive dont think mix two types drive , unless one scsi ide cards available turn ide 3 setup bios recognize drive second drive type drive \? n't numbers drive instructions drive type included controller may type 1 matter disk others may type 47 one controller tell bios hard disk installed 4 format create partitions drive use format fdisk \? think ide drives ca n't low level formatted scsi \? exactly fdisk work \? reduced msdos 5 0 manual \( clone \) mention fdisk ideally , would want drive partitioned two partitions e \? low level format scsi unless scsi low level format program first use fdisk set partitions , use format well seems anythiing i'm forgetting \? help really appreciated , i'm lost eric ebosco us oracle com mark mark uk ac ox physchem
urc kun nl \( ronald \) subject dont harddisk type 47 nntp posting host urc kun nl organization lines 15 hello , friend mine commodore 386sx 've put machine second harddisk , 100 200 mb problem 200mb harddisk n't supported bios alas 's user type 47 setup moment use type getting bad blocks harddisk question knows solution \? 've seen small program byte , n't able find would work , used programs quite lot xt days , n't anymore , seagate used ship drive sold help greatly appreciated ronald r uci kun nl
ry01 ns1 cc lehigh edu \( robert yung \) subject 16550 v 16550a \? \? \? organization lehigh university lines 10 's difference 16550 uart 16550a uart \? thanks ! loose sprockets mind hamsters natural habitat anymore \( ie wild hamsters \) \? world consists plastic gym call home call hell \? funny like watch others sweat butts take root sofa i'm n't think hamsters sweat 'll go shave one get back \( robert \) bobby yung ry01 lehigh edu
ry01 ns1 cc lehigh edu \( robert yung \) subject v fast 's taking long \? \? \? \? organization lehigh university lines 11 going take year v fast become standard \? technical problems work , bureaucratic slowdown \? thanks ! loose sprockets mind hamsters natural habitat anymore \( ie wild hamsters \) \? world consists plastic gym call home call hell \? funny like watch others sweat butts take root sofa i'm n't think hamsters sweat 'll go shave one get back \( robert \) bobby yung ry01 lehigh edu
cs ruu nl \( robert \) subject teac sd harddisk jumper setting , please \? organization utrecht university , dept computer science keywords master , slave settings lines 14 hi , bought new harddisk want use old teac , 100mb harddisk documentation harddisk could someone please tell set jumpers master slave \? thanks advance , robert cs ruu nl robert cs ruu nl utrecht , netherlands
idler cs tu berlin de \( andreas kuehnel \) subject drdos vs msdos 6 0 organization technical university berlin , germany lines 8 distribution world nntp posting host cs tu berlin de mime version 1 0 content type text plain charset iso 8859 1 content transfer encoding 8bit i'm using drdos 6 0 superstor nearly 2 years , i'm wondering , msdos 6 0 could keep last anybody tried \? double disk \? \( lots problems \) much memory get \? \( 've got emm \) line help \( really great drdos \) help appreciated
idler cs tu berlin de \( andreas kuehnel \) subject streamer software organization technical university berlin , germany lines 6 distribution world nntp posting host cs tu berlin de mime version 1 0 content type text plain charset iso 8859 1 content transfer encoding 8bit i'm using qic compatible 250mb streamer , really like terrible typo archive description drives mad time software rename , even better , delete archives \? help really appreciated
inmos co uk \( jeremy thomas \) subject pc diy 486dx pcs organization inmos limited , bristol , uk distribution uk lines 10 i'm interested building pc anyone recommend \( uk available \) book subject , sources parts \? alternatively , anyone recommend source 486dx \( 33mhz \) pc \( uk available \) 've seen computer weekly march '93 price fallen sterling \( including os , monitor , keyboard , delivery vat \) , ca n't find single advert would give system price many thanks help
beng dorsai dorsai org \( ben ng \) subject backup organization dorsai embassy lines 9 nntp posting host dorsai dorsai org summary keywords x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 cms 's please email thoughts machine specifics avg file access etc ben ng beng dorsai dorsai org 1 278 706
idler cs tu berlin de \( andreas kuehnel \) subject windows virtual memory organization technical university berlin , germany lines 9 distribution world nntp posting host cs tu berlin de mime version 1 0 content type text plain charset iso 8859 1 content transfer encoding 8bit 've got 386dx 40 , 4mb i'm using windows 3 1 sometimes wondered windows worked endlessly hd nothing \( lunch something like \) turned virtual memory swapfile , windows became quite faster , less memory free i'm still wondering , windows reading everything virtual memory sufficient \? common sense explanation really appreciated
idler cs tu berlin de \( andreas kuehnel \) subject delayed write caches organization technical university berlin , germany lines 8 distribution world nntp posting host cs tu berlin de mime version 1 0 content type text plain charset iso 8859 1 content transfer encoding 8bit i'm using norton cache 5 0 , really nice horrible incompatible games wo n't work , streamer software wo n't work windows n't like copying deleting lots small files , really fast see , write file fat must changed write 1000 files fat must changed cache program smart enough good enough run applications \? help really appreciated
bitzm columbia dsu edu \( michael bitz \) subject buy c computers ! ! ! lines 29 organization dakota state university lines 29 i'm planning buy computer like tc 's ads tell anything company computers \? also , anyone company would prefer , please let know yes , nice ads , even better great prices outside consumer sees orders little know , get poor service \( poor \) ordered 105mb hard drive tc 6 months ago , received mail , installed , discovered work ! ! ! sent back , said 'd send refund check took many , many , many phone calls hate mail , well threats lawsuit get back 250 00 ! fact , took two whole months calling threatening ! every time 'd call , would put run around finally wound answering machine 'd leave name phone , n't even get called back one pissed c customer , want get ripped , want decent service , repeat buy company money saved worth ulcers get pass word around friends companies like deserve stay business , let 's give hard earned money discount micro , systems powerhouse , gateway 2000 given excellent service speed past highly recommend anyone mike bitz internet bitzm columbia dsu edu research development bitzm dsuvax dsu edu dakota state university bitnet s93020 sdnet bitnet
wayne bradley wayne bradley canrem com subject hp lj fonts reply wayne bradley wayne bradley canrem com organization canada remote systems distribution comp lines 27 friend original hp laserjet nameplate specify number , since lj ii followed later , one assumes lj problem tax program requires 17 cpi font print forms properly unit came market 2 versions plus version supported fonts guess one friend plain , plus printer though slot small cartridges including 16 6 cpi none 17 cpi font anyone suggest source cartridge 17 \( 18 \? \) cpi font \? alternatively , upgrade plus version available reasonable cost \? suggestions would welcome thanks winqwk 2 0b 943 seattle rain festival jan 1 dec 31 canada remote systems toronto , ontario 416 629 7000 629 7044
mark physchem ox ac uk \( mark jackson \) subject 386 motherboard advice needed originator mark joule pcl organization physical chemistry laboratory , south parks road , oxford ox1 3qz lines 25 article 965 jethro corp sun com , lonewolf muse corp sun com \( peter pak \) writes hi , anyone source 386dx 25 motherboards \? 've calling around local stores everyone appears stocking 386dx 33 40 386sx 25 33 motherboards difficult modify 386dx 40 motherboard run 25 mhz \? simple replacing system clock slower part \? thanks ! peter normally case , make sure get board plug oscillator screw warranty start solder board mark mark uk ac ox physchem
mark physchem ox ac uk \( mark jackson \) subject help second hd install originator mark joule pcl organization physical chemistry laboratory , south parks road , oxford ox1 3qz distribution comp lines 35 article 1993apr21 , mike tancsa mike tancsa canrem com writes considering adding 386 system equipped maxtor hd , second maxtor 245 meg hd assume problem however , remember reading somewhere , needed reformat original drive \? true \? \? drive full really n't like idea installing everything floppy ! ! please e mail , post group mike mike tancsa internet 1 mdtancsa watarts uwaterloo ca waterloo , ontario 2 mike tancsa canrem com canada rosereader 2 10 entered crs canada remote systems toronto , ontario 416 629 7000 629 7044 need reformat old hd mark mark uk ac ox physchem
anderson dseg ti com \( john anderson \) subject 9600 baud organization ti dseg spring creek nntp posting host mcs jha dseg ti com reply anderson dseg ti com lines 13 article 477 uucp kaw uucp \( ka workman \) writes 've similar problems downloading using , discovered disabled data compression modem , works fine string use \? john h anderson texas instruments inc internet anderson dseg ti com po box ms compuserve , plano , tx 214 575 fax 214 575
goyal utdallas edu \( mohit k goyal \) subject info power pc ibm , apple , motorola ! nntp posting host apache utdallas edu organization univ texas dallas lines 34 begin repost ibm , apple , motorola ready powerpc 601 processor wraps come powerpc 601 processor week , motorola corp , ibm , apple computer inc detail results effort first series powerpc processors 32 bit processor 64 bit memory interface , much like intel corp 's pentium , capability performing many three instructions per clock cycle , according sources familiar chip motorola expected release chip volume year end two configurations , running 50 66 mhz performance 40 50 marks , respectively , sources said floating point performance 3 6 volt processors even better , performance 60 80 , respectively 601 , scaled version power 220 chip developed ibm rs 6000 workstations , also include 32k single buffered cache chip protocols support motorola 's 64 bit multiprocessor bus built chip , designed initially support micro channel architecture , bus independent , vendors could develop powerpc based systems using number different architectures , including isa , eisa , sun microsystems inc 's bus design , one source noted according sources familiar development effort , motorola extremely successful developing powerpc inexpensive architecture , despite complex design made 2 8 million transistors using 0 6 micron technology initial chips expected priced 300 400 slightly higher intel corp 's 486 processors could sold less 100 , one source said end repost
bgrubb dante nmsu edu \( grubb \) subject ide vs scsi organization new mexico state university , las cruces , nm lines 45 distribution world nntp posting host dante nmsu edu david c cat uucp \( dave \) write talking scsi 1 device \( e g hd \) scsi 2 controller talking scsi 1 controller chip upgrade using chip scsi 2 controller board talking scsi 1 device \( e g hd \) scsi 2 controller rewrite mac info sheet scsi section scsi external device expansion interface common mac ibm allows use device hard drive , printer , scanner , nubus card expansion mac plus , monitors , cd rom normal asynchronous scsi 5 mhz fast synchronous scsi 10 mhz difference modes mainly software drivers main problem lot external devices internal terminated causes problems two scsi port scsi chain supposed terminated begining end set causes problems either mac ibm scsi 1 8 bit 7 devices per scsi controller asynchronous 1 5mb ave synchronous 5mb max transfers 8 bit scsi 2 often mistaken fast version scsi 1 see scsi 2 details scsi 2 fully scsi 1 compliant scsi 2 mode 10 devices per scsi controller 8 bit scsi 2 implimented fast scsi 1 since run using scsi 1 hardware software drivers limits 7 devices , results sometimes mistakenly part scsi 1 16 bit 32 bit scsi 2 require different ports , electronics , scsi software drivers scsi 1 makes expensive scsi interfaces 32 bit scsi seems run synchronous mode , hence term fast transfer speeds 4 6mb 10mb burst 8 bit , 8 12mb 20mb burst 16 bit , 15 20mb 40mb burst 32 bit 8 bit scsi 2 biggest headache due fact scsi 2 know pump scsi 2 speeds scsi 1 devices software controlers main implimentation mac though see adds scsi 2 10mb maximum throughput pcs since 8 bit scsi 2 need hardware including software 16 bit 32 bit scsi 2 scsi 2 interfaces pop scsi 1 pop 8 bit scsi 2 electronics people consider 16 bit scsi 2 really starts used one 4 6mb average though put theoretical burst 10mb scsi 1 8 bit scsi 2 rule thumb 5mb type scsi 2 8 bit scsi use part scsi 1 electronics reduces cost compared 16 32 bit scsi 2
gjp sei cmu edu \( george pandelios \) subject cpu fans organization software engineering institute lines 54 article 1993apr20 mfltd co uk , nmp mfltd co uk \( nic percival \( \) \) writes got 66mhz 486dx2 system , considering getting fan cpu processor running hot touch think fairly good idea \( long ago electronics training read somewhere regions within chip define junctions gates etc slowly diffuse time increases temperature , hence hot chip goes spec sooner \) anyone got cpu fan \? \? 1 type \? remove cpu install fan \? cpu fans derive power spare drive power lines \? anyone trouble cpu fans \? anyone evidence cpu fans complete waste money \? fans attached \? \( glue \? clips \? melted cheese \? \) roughly much cooler cpu fan opposed without \? \( advert 've read claims vs \) info appreciated , nic percival well piece cake , eh k 9 \? micro focus , newbury piece cake master \? radial slice baked \( \) ext coefficient relevance nmp mfltd co uk key time zero dr pc ii , slightly different beast 's long card plugs 8 16 bit slot contains two fans requires extra cabling 286 experiencing problems due heat made system run cool enough problem longer appears 's supposed keep internal temperature range 75 95 degrees fahrenheit according maker 's \( tech \) advertisements , us army used bunch keep pcs running \( w c \) desert storm ca n't vouch however , satisfied customer connection maker mail order house \( \( 313 \) 268 8100 \) hope helps , george george j pandelios internet gjp sei cmu edu software engineering institute usenet sei ! gjp 4500 fifth avenue voice \( 412 \) 268 7186 pittsburgh , pa 15213 fax \( 412 \) 268 5758 disclaimer opinions reflect software engineering institute , sponsors , customers , clients , affiliates , carnegie mellon university fact , resemblence opinions individual , living dead , fictional real , purely coincidental
bgrubb dante nmsu edu \( grubb \) subject scsi ide 's difference \? organization new mexico state university , las cruces , nm lines 15 distribution world nntp posting host dante nmsu edu iastate edu writes article 1993apr21 ac dal ca ac dal ca writes stupid question new ibm pc user i'm going selling mac getting gateway 2000 noises talk frying pan fire \) cpu use \? need info fro thesis scsi drives faster ide \? i'm pretty sure scsi faster along lot better compatability half right scsi 1 slower ide 5mb vs 8 3mb maximum scsi 2 8 bit faster burst rate ide scsi 2 16 32 bit much faster ide cyclone june
netcom com \( keh cheng chu \) subject monitors nanao \? organization netcom online communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 23 article c5uw1t 3hi eskimo com johnn eskimo com \( john navitsky \) writes would like monitor handle high resolutions like 1024x1024 ni i'm using monitor amiga 4000 amiga 2000 w graphics board like retina , sun like sparcstation lx basically want high resolution monitor monitor need large \( 17 \) meets brief requirements outlined 've happy 16 suns could probably cope smaller home i'm interested anyone details high quality sony hitatchi monitors since seem used sun 's fairly often look pretty good \( least \) n't seem brought c p h often mag viewsonic give new viewsonic 17 good look seen side side old viewsonic 7 , mag 17 , nanao 17 \( trinitron one \) , sony oem 17 \( trinitron tube \) new viewsonic beat easily terms picture quality , think far superior 16 sun staring place asks 1178 would bought bought 15 nanao week earlier \( keh cheng
ultb isc rit edu \( r \) subject modems uarts nntp posting host ultb gw isc rit edu organization systems article jester gun de michael jester gun de \( michael gerhards \) writes universal arithmetic receiver transmitter normally , older boards 8250 16450 uart board chips generate irq every char received 16550 uart internal 16 byte buffer , right software installed generates irq every 16 chars close universal asynchronous receiver transmitter 3 \) necessary 14 4k higher throughput \? ran dos , n't need 16550 , dos runs one task time whole cpu power could used transfer even running dos , cpu ca n't handle speed interrupts , still lose characters one 286 10 machine external 9600 bps modem attached ca n't drive serial port faster 19 2k without losing characters michael michael jester gun de michael gerhards preussenstrasse 59 germany 4040 neuss voice 49 2131 82238 rob robert systems administrator ultb rit edu systems voice \( 716 \) 387 9 village office park , , ny fax \( 716 \) 387 wrote book sales force automation
yalevm ycc yale edu \( r \) subject help wanted loading logitech scanman driver high memory organization yale university lines 8 nntp posting host yalevm ycc yale edu logitech scanman driver \( latest version \) high memory devicehigh command msdos 6 gives message necessary change scanner driver parameters loading high \? help would appreciated
ltd uhura cc rochester edu \( bernard c \) subject stb powergraph users know ! \? summary powergraph keywords powergraph nntp posting host uhura cc rochester edu organization university rochester rochester , new york lines 17 help ! trying view jpg files 386sx , 20mhz machine stb powergraph graphics card 1024 x 768 256 colors , 1meg ram tried \( windows extremely slow \) , n't work ! even pick lot modes supported powergraph \( says manual \) , n't work try view picture buzzes anyone help give suggestions \? would really appreciate ! thanks !
nntp posting host hawaii et byu edu lines 19 alaska et byu edu \( ed \) subject modems noisy lines distribution world x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 chris crayton \( chris crayton ozonehole com \) wrote jcl garbage \? , modem n't hardware , jcl software implemented protocol trick \? software version mnp 5 available , often connect modems mnp compatible , modem 's also program called odyssey \( modem directory simtel archives \) emulates mnp 4 5 \( others , , think , interested \) getting lot garbage called one number , mnp 4 cleared completely ordinary 2400 modem \( fortunately , remote end mnp modem \) tried mnp 5 , , seemed lock computer mileage may vary ed ed byu edu
gjp sei cmu edu \( george pandelios \) subject ide low level format organization software engineering institute lines 34 article 1993apr21 organpipe uug arizona edu , helium gas uug arizona edu \( \) writes article news cso uiuc edu mandel romulus ehs uiuc edu \( mandel \) writes accidentally tried low level format western digital caviar 280 drive public domain shareware utility available allow fix \? thanks expert pretty sure way recover ide drive mapping information written directly drives low level format , information gone well , n't think get back unless send back western digital ask jim well , different story recount attempted low level format wd disk year ago understood error , contacted wd told n't hurt drive run fdisk format fine also , understand western digital 's bbs may low level formatting routines specifically available ide drives probably need talk get straight scoop george george j pandelios internet gjp sei cmu edu software engineering institute usenet sei ! gjp 4500 fifth avenue voice \( 412 \) 268 7186 pittsburgh , pa 15213 fax \( 412 \) 268 5758 disclaimer opinions reflect software engineering institute , sponsors , customers , clients , affiliates , carnegie mellon university fact , resemblence opinions individual , living dead , fictional real , purely coincidental
nntp posting host hawaii et byu edu lines 15 alaska et byu edu \( ed \) subject delayed write caches distribution world x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 andreas kuehnel \( idler cs tu berlin de \) wrote i'm using norton cache 5 0 , really nice horrible incompatible games wo n't work , streamer software wo n't work windows n't like copying deleting lots small files , 's surprising n't seen incompatibilities mine , version 6 01 version came upgrade 6 01 problems , symantec fixed 've n't seen anything wrong since i'm running windoze , way ed ed byu edu
ebosco us oracle com \( eric bosco \) subject help adding scsi drive \( coexist ide \? \) reply ebosco us oracle com organization oracle corp , redwood shores ca lines 61 nntp posting host monica us oracle com x disclaimer message written unauthenticated user oracle corporation opinions expressed user necessarily oracle article 1993apr22 27323 physchem ox ac uk mark physchem ox ac uk \( mark jackson \) writes article 1993apr19 195301 oracle us oracle com , ebosco us oracle com \( eric bosco \) writes 486sx25 computer 105 mg seagate ide drive controler built motherboard want add scsi drive \( quantum prodrive 425 mg formatted \) documentation need help ! understand , process adding drive could please tell i'm right 1 buy scsi contoler one \? know adaptec good , kind expensive good boards 100 region \? want compatible os2 unix possible also , seen net scsi scsi2 drives true \? adapter need drive \? type drive quantum \? tried others , think adaptec best value money 2 connect drive adapter via scsi cable power cable worry power supply \? think 200 watts i'm powering two floppies seagate drive dont think mix two types drive , unless one scsi ide cards available turn ide true \? \? \? impression people net scsi ide working together well seems anythiing i'm forgetting \? help really appreciated , i'm lost eric ebosco us oracle com mark mark uk ac ox physchem
qwerty tunisia ssc gov \( kris schludermann \) subject help ide drive installation problems nntp posting host tunisia ssc gov organization superconducting super collider laboratory lines 7 i'm trouble installing second ide drive promise ide caching controller first drive conner works fine second drive conner , currently slave drive problem slave drive recognized reported back free space disabling cache made effect else check \? krispy
bing zinc cchem berkeley edu \( bing ho \) subject v fast 's taking long \? \? \? \? organization uc berkeley lines 18 nntp posting host zinc cchem berkeley edu article 1993apr22 ns1 cc lehigh edu ry01 ns1 cc lehigh edu \( robert yung \) writes going take year v fast become standard \? technical problems work , bureaucratic slowdown \? thanks ! n't even get hyped still accepting submissions members various proposals implement standard n't seem realize v32bis extension v32 \( took years pass , implement , finally sell reasonable price \) , v fast requires new technology \( faster dsp chips , etc \) achieve performance wait next spring final modems coming shortly bing ho bing zinc cchem berkeley edu university california berkeley
cs utah edu cs utah edu \( joseph \) subject dataport 14 4k fax modem special ! originator cs utah edu organization university utah cs dept lines 53 sale dataport internal 14 4k fax modem modem internal \( e \) isa 8 bit card \( little longer half card \) v 32bis 14 data 9600 bps fax , v 42 , v 42bis , mnp5 error correction data compression , get error free links 57 , 600 bps conventional phone line fall back speed \( \) even disable compression error correction necessary order connect slower older modems 16550 buffered uart better compatibility multi tasking operating systems \( windows , os 2 , unix , etc \) use patented technology called optical line interface \( \) reduces noise generated modem assure fastest cleanest connection possible modems come lifetime warranty free lifetime tech support \( call free , \) also include lovely talented ii dos new ii windows communications fax software let conveniently sent faxes dos windows application printing windows version send faxes font include graphics , etc dos version fax graphics limited set fonts \( believe 5 , well hp laser ii resident fonts \) i'm asking 210 00 modem \( plus utah tax \) prices \( reputable \) manufacturer equivalent modem \( including zoom , us robotics , etc \) , backed company never go away price include delivery live within 20 miles downtown slc also arrange shipping , stop home pick \( 're concerned installing internal modem , let know discuss arrangement including installation \) 're interested , please let know excellent modem excellent price \( normally list 500 retail 300 \) installed one last week nice questions , info number \( 800 \) 554 , email answer modem go highest bidder get within next week thanks pete
acme gen nz \( \) subject atari mono vga reply acme gen nz \( \) organization bbs , north , new zealand \( 64 6 357 \) lines 52 oregon uoregon edu \( alan \) writes article 1993apr19 tdb uu se , m88max tdb uu se \( max brante \) w anybody converting atari monitor mono vga monitor please let know exactly graphics card used wish could help ! posted similar question two weeks ago got response 've asked locally friendly atari store told possible , idea might done particularly care investigate ok , 's results far 1 define monitor lcd n't really support analogue video input \( works , n't linear \) 2 incoming sync pulses need best achieved either cmos xor package transistor inverter n't know , n't even contemplate \) 3 'll work standard vga mode ok , said , i'm trying either find circuit ic act universal sync decoder want basically detects leading sync pulse edge , n't care polarity , going pulses atari monitor requires 2 reasons 1 vga cards change sync polarity depending mode 're herc emulation , , example 2 means n't put toggle switch back monitor order able run atari ibm currently 3 \( yes , 3 ! \) monitors sitting desk , want get number much possible able use atari monitor paper white vga cut things 2 forget atari colour , get 1 ultimately , best course action get multisync monitor , i'm pressed cash anyone else , 'll wait alan brown acme gen nz
jeeves uwaterloo ca \( peter wood \) subject trying find pc e mail network organization university waterloo lines 33 desperately trying find pc based e mail wide area network service necessary network software establish one aware various bbs 's similar services \( like compuserve , canada remote systems etc \) require fairly specific criteria approximate order importance 1 \) mail files news read written locally network server \( ie continuous line connection \) \( note users remote use modems conventional phone lines \) 2 \) simple users system little computer knowledge never heard unix , little interest learning essential client software completely pain free 3 \) cheap would prefer paying high connect fees established commercial network , send large files members group hence \( 1 \) addition would like network server something small , simple inexpensive like 486 \( 40 people group , huge network \) 4 \) capability internet access \( news mail \) 5 \) internet style id 's \( eg math uwaterloo ca \) anyone knows system similar describing , even n't criteria , n't care , please please e mail tell adverse making alterations existing system necessary thanks peter wood internet id math uwaterloo ca
murthy asl dl nec com \( vasudev murthy \) subject gateway 4dx 33v high price \? nntp posting host organization nec america , inc irving , texas lines 48 asked opinions yesterday gateway machines e mail received indicated solid , reliable machines technical support good well , gateway faxed price sheet seems higher side , , maybe dell 's price similar price whole lot decent deal \? please advise via email ! dx 33v 80486dx 33 mhz desktop case 64k sram cache \( 20 ns \) 8mb dram \( 70 ns simms \) expandable 1 2 mb 1 44 epson diskette drives 250 mb western digital ide \( 13 ms \) dtr local bus ide interface ati ultra pro vl bus 1mb vram 24 bit drivers 15 crystalscan color monitor phoenix bios clock calendar 8 16 bit isa slots , 2 32 bit vesa local bus slots 1 parallel 2 serial ports intel overdrive ready upgradeable pentium technology 124 key programmable keyboard dos 6 0 windows 3 1 microsoft mouse qa plus one excel , ms word , paradox , project etc h 95 nec 3fgx upgrade would cost 250 please advise ! thanks ! vasudev vasudev murthy opinions expressed strictly murthy asl dl nec com nothing \( 214 \) 518 advanced switching lab , nec america , inc 1525 walnut hill lane irving tx
ravel udel edu \( joshua smith \) subject gateway monitor problem ! help nntp posting host ravel udel edu organization university delaware distribution usa lines 22 , someone else gateway monitor problem , anyone help , please , would much thanks advance ok , local bus 486 66 machine , crystal scan monitor 1 meg memory ati ultra pro , w mach32 driver \( newest release \) problem windows use 1024 mode get shadows sides screens , blurry type corners types screen focus 've gotten replacement video cards , replacement monitor none helped though could someone help problem thanks , josh smith live ! make always precious time reply never come ! picard , inner light bach udel edu
wam umd edu \( jeff \) subject help ide drive installation problems nntp posting host wam umd edu organization workstations maryland , university maryland , college park lines 15 article 1993apr22 ssc gov qwerty tunisia ssc gov \( kris schludermann \) writes i'm trouble installing second ide drive promise ide caching controller first drive conner works fine second drive conner , currently slave drive problem slave drive recognized reported back free space disabling cache made effect else check \? krispy make drive master drive \? partition format \?
angelo amd com \( romeo \) subject add another ide hd stacker 3 0 keywords hd organization advanced micro devices , inc lines 12 hi , somebody tell step step add 40mb ide \? hd existing 120mb ide maxtor hd stacker 3 0 dos 5 \? know set jumpers 40m slave settings heads , , sectors , etc also know cmos settings fdisk problem letter cmos give new drive \? 's , happen stacker creates swap \? tell cmos make e \? stack , c , , e f \? know could faq readme somewhere , want hear somebody 've actually done thanks !
marka hcx1 ssd csd harris com \( mark ashley \) subject everex cubes organization ft lauderdale , fl lines 11 distribution usa nntp posting host hcx1 ssd csd harris com anybody seen empty everex 's sold \? want cube computer take standard size motherboards \? thanks e mail please mark ashley disclaimer opinions harris' marka gcx1 ssd csd harris com lost los angelino
korenek nmti com \( gary korenek \) subject hint 486 vlb isa eisa motherboard keywords 486 , motherboard organization network management technology inc distribution usa lines 55 article news iastate edu schauf iastate edu \( brian j schaufenbuel \) writes article id nmti com korenek nmti com \( gary korenek \) writes believe vl eisa isa motherboard uses hint chipset limited 24 bit eisa dma \( 'real' eisa dma 32 bit \) hint eisa dma 16 mb ram addressing limitation isa reason would pass one \( hawk vl eisa isa \) look ing replace exactly reason please double check words , call motherboard manufacturer ask motherboard supports true 32 bit eisa dma limitation , motherboard works quite well \( using mine dos 5 , windows 3 1 , unix 2 \) also adaptec 1742a eisa scsi host adapter gary korenek \( korenek nmti com \) correct ! motherboard manufacturer usually buy boards says problem fixed two weeks brian j schaufenbuel n't see problem chip set \( mistake \) , see something designed intentionally would seem enhance design \( 24 32 bit eisa dma \) would require update chipset update chipset may begat update motherboard board design i'm motherboard manufacturer seems passing simple fix mind fix updated chipset hint along possible motherboard layout update simple would cautious might look advanced integration research \( air \) vl eisa motherboard slots eisa isa capable 2 \( 3 \) slots vl bus capable air people confirmed board supports 'real' 32 bit eisa dma \( called \) pentium p5 \( \? \) capable less expensive equivalent ami micronics vl eisa board look computer shopper \( april '93 \) ads show air mother board associate bought air board pleased i'm attempting get local dealer trade hawk board air board model number air board \( 486 33dx \) call motherboard warehouse \( example \) price phone 's included air \( 408 \) 428 0800 motherboard warehouse \( 800 \) 486 gary korenek \( korenek nmti com \) network management technology incorporated sugar land , texas \( 713 \) 274 5357
feng qian launchpad unc edu \( feng qian \) subject format utilities bbs \? bbs number \? nntp posting host lambada oit unc edu organization university north carolina extended bulletin board service lines 13 due problems ide drive , formatted started give errors applications told utility called ide int bbs , anyone tried \? one tell bbs number \? better , find file ftp site \? perhaps someone email \? thanks feng opinions expressed necessarily university north carolina chapel hill , campus office information technology , experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu 152 2 22 80
ibm 03 navy mil subject 16550 v 16550a \? \? \? organization utexas mail news gateway lines 5 nntp posting host cs utexas edu 's difference 16550 uart 16550a uart \? thanks ! bugs ! ! ! ! ! 16550 \( without \) would sometimes get extra characters fifo renders fifo useless get 16550a
jmarttila finabo abo fi \( fast eddie \) subject trident 8800cs drivers win 3 1 \? reply tmc spartan ac brocku ca 's message wed , 21 apr 1993 19 43 01 gmt organization turku school economics x news reader vms news 1 24 lines 15 1993apr21 spartan ac brocku ca tmc spartan ac brocku ca writes find drivers wuarchive wustl edu msdos windows3 sub directory think files called zip zip latest drivers available far know downloaded files couple days ago appeared incompatible particular card none svga drivers worked 're probably newer 8900 9000 series jm jouni yo 11 b 25 , 20540 turku , finland 358 21 jmarttila abo fi jmarttila finabo jmarttila utu fi pgp key available via finger jmarttila abo fi
organization penn state university psuvm psu edu subject 486 comparisons \( dlc , amd , intel \) lines 10 thinking buying new motherboard cyrix 486dlc 40 33 mh z upgrade 386sx 25 wondering anybody facts fill anybody one think \? also get cyrix math co benchmarks two chips nd look good price anybody responds please send email usually n't check mail often check reader daily thanks info , remember respond legitimate comp praise , cyrix amd bash know byte , computer shopper , pc computing etc said considering cyrix chip thanks
l p li1 lut ac uk \( dlp li \) subject upgrading xt reply l p li1 lut ac uk \( dlp li \) organization loughborough university , uk lines 13 hi netters , upgrade xt 286 motherboard , able use old bits pieces like hd , fd , graphics card card etc thanks info p sorry question kind faq regards , desmond li lut , uk
glen tegra com \( glen \) subject 66dx2 isa , vlb xor 50dx eisa \? \? advice wanted organization tegra , inc billerica , lines 13 article 1993apr22 julian uwo ca rmitch irus rri uwo ca \( ross mitchell \) writes choice basically system 486dx2 66 isa vlb , , 486dx 50 eisa vlb \( thus non local bus version ati card \) better , keeping mind i'm primarily interested last two tasks \? april 13 issue pc magazine published benchmarks ati running vlb eisa 800x600 , 16 800x600 , 256 1024x768 , 16 1024x768 , 256 eisa 15 34 15 34 15 19 15 15 vlb 16 02 16 31 16 33 16 24
joe eddy demers coyote cmu edu subject bios timer interrupts organization sophomore , math computer science , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 18 nntp posting host po2 andrew cmu edu hello , i'm trying use bios timer interrupts \( occur every 055 seconds , 18 2 times second \) time people 's response times , psychology experiment , response times order 01 seconds way get better precision counting ticks \? make ticks occur frequently \? i'm trying dos 5 0 386 , would nice could also work old 8086 machines running dos 2 1 \( know , know , n't like \) means requirement , possibility , basically , information bios tick scheme related would appreciated , well information alternate ways improving accuracy email preferred , i'm planning posting boards , n't read thanks joe
darrylo srgenprp sr hp com \( darryl okahata \) subject help adding scsi drive \( coexist ide \? \) reply darrylo sr hp com organization hewlett packard center primal scream therapy x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 2 lines 106 eric bosco \( ebosco us oracle com \) wrote first , please edit postings 50 lines quoted crud , people already read , makes people much less likely help course , n't want helped , 's problem \) true \? \? \? impression people net scsi ide working together , 's true get scsi ide work together , restrictions \( least adaptec 1542 \) must boot ide drive way boot scsi drive ide scsi drives must disable scsi rom bios \( i'm sure , though \) , must also use special drivers access scsi drive \( hmm know disable something related scsi bios , i'm sure rom \) back february , someone asked ide scsi \( question gets asked \) end message , 've included edited copy reply might find interesting darryl okahata internet darrylo sr hp com disclaimer message author 's personal opinion constitute support , opinion policy hewlett packard little green men following day 1 \) worth get scsi ide \? noticable decrease access time increase rate \? msdos applications , isa based scsi ide controllers generally comparable throughput might get slightly higher throughput scsi disk , 'll also pay disk \( 30 100 , cases \) 'll also pay much , much good scsi controller note good scsi controllers really show power 're used good multitasking operating system \( like pc unix \) unfortunately , neither msdos windows 3 1 good multitasking operating system performance advantage scsi controllers mostly wasted , leaves advantage able connect multiple devices scsi bus advantage however , note expect pay premium scsi devices 're going using msdos , stick ide 's cheaper , 'll less headaches 4 \) virtually scsi device chain controller hard drive \( bernoulli box , cd rom , tape drive , etc \) note following true msdos windows knows future holds windows nt unix \? \? \? generally , find drivers scsi device , probably n't exist unless 're using one better high performance scsi controllers typically bus mastering scsi controllers cost around 180 400 \( street prices \) , drivers allow connect controllers popular name brand scsi devices either come card , purchased \( 100 list price \) examples driver kits adaptec 's ez scsi kit \( list 75 \) works adaptec scsi controllers corelscsi ! \( people make coreldraw ! \) \( list 99 \( \? \) \) driver kit supposedly work scsi controller card aspi driver , like adaptec central point 's pc tools dos 8 0 supports number scsi tape drives \( documentation lists 40 tape drives \) unfortunately , works adaptec controllers 5 \) likely problems incompatibilities scsi controller sound cards video accelerators similar equipment yes , run problems , 're using high performance , bus mastering scsi controller n't sound right , n't \? 's true , though one controllers , 'll probably tweak system get work sound cards , floppy controller based tape drives \( like cms jumbo 250 \) , windows 3 1 know 've h back getting scsi controller work various hardware software \( thank god tape backups \) want copy adaptec 1542 hints tips file , send email problems n't really fault scsi controller card problems really general hardware software design pc \( e g , standards \) however , adding bus mastering scsi card brings problems surface makes visible scsi holds lot promise , run lot pc compatibility problems 're planning using msdos windows 3 1 , stick ide want use windows nt pc unix , 'll make hard decisions good scsi controller one scsi hard disk probably give excellent performance , possible cost msdos compatibility say , probably , , know true pc unix , n't know really true windows nt suspect , n't know sure
col hp com \( denis lambert \) subject comments gateway 's nomad organization hp colorado springs division lines 13 nntp posting host la col hp com looking getting laptop work trying decide gateway 's nomad price , gateway significantly better performance \( 200mb vs 120mb hard drive , 50mhz 486dx2 vs 25mhz \) much cheaper accessories \( extra batteries , modem \) concern gateway durability reliability anyone experience gateway nomad \? thanks , denis lambert col hp com
mark cs msstate edu \( mark \) subject dos 4 0 dos 5 0 need new mouse driver \? nntp posting host walt cs msstate edu reply mark cs msstate edu organization mississippi state univ , cs dept lines 15 recently installed dos 5 0 machines , users claim use mouse often , screen blank , machine lock viruses , running tsr 's \( mouse 2 button \) anybody got ideas \? thanks mark mark cs msstate edu
jliukkon klaava helsinki fi \( juha matti liukkonen \) subject soundblaster irq port settings organization university helsinki lines 52 pdb059 ipl jpl nasa gov \( paul bartholomew \) writes clip clip interesting would care explain , soundblaster pro card printer card sharing irq 7 successfully \? assure set irq 7 problem computer dtk 286 12 ibm clone running ms dos derivative os , obviously please take note following exactly happens , slightly simplified explanation technically , irq line means device \( printer adapter , soundblaster , modem , hard disk , \) signal cpu something 's happening , please take note cpu programmed handle signal usually operating system ms dos , interrupt vector used store address function handles interrupt , basic dos n't care whether printer reports 's ready print stuff simply ignores interrupt dos prints , looks lpt buffer 's character , wait check 's , copy new character lpt port since irq 7 ignored printer interrupt , 's free use adapters case , sb multitasking otherwise advanced os , kind printing approach n't work \( precisely , wastes lot cpu cycles \) hence , ca n't share irq 7 lpt1 sb 're running unix os 2 whatnot another issue sb digitized sound uses interrupts sb plays plain music , cpu simply tells play told otherwise digitized sound interrupt required notify cpu output ends new data needed , however , hook two \( \) com ports one interrupt , use one time interrupt handling routine ports , see port data came , course , applies devices \( like lpt \) well remember , greatly simplified parts , think gives general picture correctly enough cheers , juha liukkonen , aka jliukkon cc helsinki fi university helsinki , dept lost souls trust , know i'm hammer
aragorn csee lehigh edu \( frank \) subject monitors nanao \? organization lehigh university lines 12 nntp posting host aragorn csee lehigh edu johnn eskimo com \( john navitsky \) writes hello , 've following discussions 17 monitors comp sys ibm pc hardware noted nanao seems get good reviews i'm interested getting information nanao 's products get ahold nanao \? nanao call 1 800 800 ask catalog 's list street cost avail third party buy copy computer shopper take look one place reasonable prices good service cad warehouse cleveland , ohio
uafhp uark edu \( dennis pang \) subject problem speed organization kansas state university lines 31 nntp posting host uafhp uark edu 486dx2 50 8mb 70ns ram trident svga card sometimes feel runs slowly , especially running windows i'm planning buy ati graphic ultra next semester need get problem solved \? 70ns ram chips slow machine \? faster ram chips make big difference \? use cad software computer well grades good enough speed lot \? one experienced difference isa bus vl bus \( graphic accelerator \) \? \( scsi controller may appropriate , since may replace hard disks well however , sometimes huge files computer really worth use scsi interface \? ca n't spend much \) \) help appreciated thanks advance dennis uafhp uark edu p man ! hate stupid text editor way type article dos word processor load file usenet \? thanks advance !
wilson schaefer math wisc edu \( bob wilson \) subject consumer warning midwest micro \( ohio \) organization university wisconsin , madison distribution na lines 18 posted almost bad experience midwest micro news program sent one paragraph middle addition facts \( \) modems \( ordered two \) would n't work documented \( b \) tech person clue work , also turned \( c \) one two modems sent clearly used techs thought standard practice \( \) modems made three floppy drives quit working tape drive start running away incompetent one thing , sell used stuff new wo n't even apologize another stay away crooks ! bob wilson wilson math wisc edu
vax ftp com \( james b \) subject jumper settings ungermann bass ethernet card nntp software pc tcp nntp keywords ub lines 14 nntp posting host whipped cream ftp com reply ftp com organization ftp software , inc , north andover , massachusetts distribution na article 1993apr21 ntg com dplatt ntg com \( dave platt \) writes irq interface select jumpers pretty straightforward , n't settings \( also labelled a15 a18 \) could somebody tell settings four jumpers correspond addresses \? u b \( also ibm \) ethernet card know n't use addresses interrupts shared memory jumpers see control bits 15 18 base address shared memory ca n't recall 1 0 , 's easy determine debug james b 2 high st , north andover , ftp software inc voice \( 508 \) 685 4000 fax \( 508 \) 794
les chinet chi il us \( leslie \) subject consumer warning midwest micro \( ohio \) organization chinet public access unix distribution na lines 21 article mpr mi org ken mi org writes i'm sure modem would work ok basic system , clearly work multi port system like mine since time worth aggravation cost modem , gave local charitable organization \( description problem \) ordered practical peripherals 14 4mt pc connection 30 , solid external modem built company know support users sold company \( based personal experience \) treat right problem known better , , buying external modem solve problem wanting 2 serial devices \? since pc supports two , blaming modem vendor problem \? n't see experience could different internal modem les les chinet chi il us
m88max tdb uu se \( max brante \) subject pinout standard \( mono \) vga monitor \? organization department scientific computing , uppsala university lines 12 subject line says thanks l l \( \) max brante m88max tdb uu se l l l l l l l l l \( \( \) l f r l l l l l l \( \) uppsala universitet
m88max tdb uu se \( max brante \) subject check switches ibm xt organization department scientific computing , uppsala university lines 11 ok , might seem bit odd check state \( dip \) switches mother board ibm xt without using bios thanx l l \( \) max brante m88max tdb uu se l l l l l l l l l \( \( \) l f r l l l l l l \( \) uppsala universitet
andrew tech umbc edu \( andrew williams \) subject error beeps boot organization university maryland , baltimore county campus lines 15 nntp posting host tech umbc edu servicing machine \( hp 286 \) whenever thing starts get 4 beeps powerup anyone know error message signifies \? n't seem problem machine lady using concerned n't love hp computers \? \? \? responses e mail read net post andrew acs micro computer network technical support university maryland baltimore county andrew tech umbc edu
bbn com \( ralph brown \) subject vlb bus master problem \? lines 17 distribution world reply bbn com nntp posting host bbn com keywords vlb bus master controller scsi article athena , athena qualcomm com \( robert kimball \) writes specifically , interested ultrastor 34f vlb scsi controller shell bucks thing would like get straight scoop someone knows anyone controller \? problems \? one three different motherboards n't work nt cases dos sent mine back , understanding systems micronics motherboards necessary shut internal cache 486 work 've yet hear someone running 34f motherboard nt without shutting cache get one advise sure return first ralph
ladasky netcom com \( john j ladasky ii \) subject atari 1040 sell trade pc organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 48 considering selling atari 1040 purchasing ibm need know kind money trade expect get atari bother start graduate school , means i'm poor ! \( 's price list used rec music makers synth , equivalent list computers \) system tailor made midi musician details follow atari 1040 st tos 1 0 1 mb ram 720k floppy drive 20 mb external scsi drive , 18 months old 12 atari monochrome monitor generic 2400 baud external modem software software registered comes manuals passport 's master tracks pro , version 2 5 \( sequencing software \) dr 's professional \( scoring software \) first word \( word processor pd version \) 's laser c , version 2 0 \( programming language \) vip professional \( spreadsheet package low tech lotus clone \) partner st \( desk accessory integrated calendar , , etc \) 's easy draw \( early , pre postscript release \) \( improved desktop atari st \) universal iii \( improved file selector atari st \) miscellaneous software \( including communications software \) consider prices 900 also willing trade atari system quality \( 386 486 \) pc , including lap tops pc hardware , complete system may necessary john j ladasky ii \( ii \) ladasky netcom com great borrow talking music like steal john ladasky dancing architecture \( quote stolen , elvis costello \? laurie stole statement made anderson \? frank zappa \? pablo picasso painting , stole \) property theft groucho man w charity heart music \? confucius
thacker enh nist gov subject comtrade organization nist lines 8 anyone experience buying computers comtrade \? asked tc , got one reply describing problems returning defective hard drive expect problems comtrade \? thanks , thacker miami fl
lonewolf muse corp sun com \( peter pak \) subject 386 motherboard advice needed organization sun microsystems lines 12 distribution world reply lonewolf muse corp sun com nntp posting host muse corp sun com maybe clearer intel 386dx 25 would like use put together system however motherboards local vendors selling running either 33 40 mhz guess cross fingers hope cpu runs speed \) think 'll take mark 's advice see boards socketed oscillator head local electronics store thanks info b \)
ngai nova bellcore com \( john ngai \) subject questions installing pas16 dx2 66v nntp posting host nova bellcore com reply ngai apostle bellcore com organization bellcore lines 21 went bought pas16 yesterday , installed gateway dx2 66v followed instructions set sb side dma 1 irq5 \( default \) pas side dma 5 irq 10 question configure mpu 401 compatibility manual installation program recommended irq2 , machine configured cascade 15 still use irq2 , choose different one \? right mpu 401 emulation mode turned actually cascade 15 business \? related questions \( gw vl bus machine owners \) told dma 5 , 6 , 7 16 bit , 0 4 8 bit 32 bit vl bus mastering \? \? dma channel \( \) used vl bus extension 32 bit dma \? yet another question , installing pas16 , links \( golf game \) hang machine select sb mode run , works adlib mode \? \? civilization however works fine \( least far \) body knows might done wrong \? thanks \( obviously newbie \) john
edm wrs com \( ed mcclanahan \) subject cpu nntp posting host chaos organization wind river systems , inc lines 17 jim johnson abcd houghton mi us \( jim johnson \) writes speaking cpu fans many use clips make sure use heat sink grease , heat transfering tape , wasted money cpu fans also heat sinks \? recommend using chip \( e heat sink cpu fan \) \? talking cpu fan blowing directly cpu chip , ca n't see heat sink grease necessary \( even desireable \) edward mcclanahan edm wrs com
cac washington edu \( diana \) subject anyone heard organization uw computing lines 9 distribution world nntp posting host cac washington edu keywords , pc friend recently bought used 286 brand n't come documentation trying find information computer question , anyone heard \? know anything please drop note thank diana u washington edu
arnolm2 aix rpi edu \( matthew richard arnold \) subject dx50 vs dx266 nntp posting host aix rpi edu organization rensselaer polytechnic institute , troy , ny lines 11 would someone willing explain 486dx 50mhz popular \? would think would fast , faster 486dx 66mhz certian applications plus , 50mhz motherboard would seem better plans upgrading chip future must missing something , since everyone buying dx2 66 many adds n't even mention dx 50 thanks lot , matt
gryphon openage openage com \( golden gryphon \) subject modem problem dialtone organization open age , inc keywords modem , phone lines 24 dudek acsu buffalo edu \( cybard \) writes 486dx 33 isa pc compatible \( insight \) internal 14 14 modem windows first put modem , pulled phone jack another room , ran phone line extension surge protector computer modem worked fine split line jack room , ran line room surge protector computer got regular phone plugged phone jack modem try use modem , says dialtone phone plugged back computer works fine tried unplugging phone , still dice phone line split many times \? \( n't understand could problem , since phone worked fine \) please note none software hardware parameters changed , phone line new modem faulty \? \? try swapping phone cables back modem golden gryphon gryphon openage com crown american prison system president bill clinton living white house openage premier sco unix washington c area
brand llnl gov \( hal r brand , llnl , 510 422 \) subject comments texel 5024 cd rom drive sought organization lawrence livermore national laboratory lines 7 distribution world nntp posting host llnl gov keywords cd rom , texel 5024 news software vax vms vnews 1 41 anyone recommendations warnings texel 5024 cd rom drive competitors \? i'm looking cd rom drive connection pas 16 scsi port hal r brand llnl brand llnl gov
kentiler matt ksu ksu edu \( kent p iler \) subject well voicemail modems work \? organization kansas state university lines 8 nntp posting host matt ksu ksu edu hi , 've seen alot ads voicemail fax data modems would way cool work well n't want someone call get connecting sound fax machine work well \? anyone played one \? , please tell brand info like thanks , kent
guyd austin ibm com \( guy dawson \) subject help adding scsi drive originator guyd pal500 austin ibm com organization ibm austin lines 52 couple points article 1993apr22 27323 physchem ox ac uk , mark physchem ox ac uk \( mark jackson \) writes article 1993apr19 195301 oracle us oracle com , ebosco us oracle com \( eric bosco \) writes 1 buy scsi contoler one \? know adaptec good , kind expensive good boards 100 region \? want compatible os2 unix possible also , seen net scsi scsi2 drives true \? adapter need drive \? type drive quantum \? tried others , think adaptec best value money adaptec 1542b happy 2 connect drive adapter via scsi cable power cable worry power supply \? think 200 watts i'm powering two floppies seagate drive dont think mix two types drive , unless one scsi ide cards available turn ide ! ide box use disks time , eg ide scsi disk copy well seems anythiing i'm forgetting \? help really appreciated , i'm lost eric ebosco us oracle com mark mark uk ac ox physchem well , one statement one correction ! guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns co uk tel hoskyns uk 71 251 2128 guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa 512 838 3377
guyd austin ibm com \( guy dawson \) subject help adding scsi drive \( coexist ide \? \) originator guyd pal500 austin ibm com organization ibm austin lines 44 article 1993apr22 oracle us oracle com , ebosco us oracle com \( eric bosco \) writes article 1993apr22 27323 physchem ox ac uk mark physchem ox ac uk \( mark jackson \) writes article 1993apr19 195301 oracle us oracle com , ebosco us oracle com \( eric bosco \) writes dont think mix two types drive , unless one scsi ide cards available turn ide true \? \? \? impression people net scsi ide working together ! i'm running home ok , turned right boot bsd 386 ide drive , system scsi drive i'm using adaptec 1542b name el cheapo ide card well seems anythiing i'm forgetting \? help really appreciated , i'm lost eric ebosco us oracle com mark mark uk ac ox physchem guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns co uk tel hoskyns uk 71 251 2128 guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa 512 838 3377
sherwood adobe com \( geoffrey sherwood \) subject hercules vlb \? article adobe 1993apr22 organization adobe systems incorporated lines 28 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 couple months ago tried hercules graphite card pretty nice board fairly fast , seemed quite compatible even seemed handle svga modes occasion time buying vlb system , checking card sent back wanted vlb card , purchased fahrenheit vlb card card fairly fast , 70 hz refresh 1024x768 , compatible cd roms \( svga thing think merely cause old graphics board able run higher resolution programs modern boards tried gotten straight answer anybody \) monitor using 17 magnavox , also tops hz really pretty good match wife purchased viewsonic 17 , looking graphics card drive want 70hz refresh , would really like handle cd roms tried orchid p9000 , neither things \( though robert say 70hz possible driver data base \) thoughts go back hercules supposed coming vlb version graphite around end march heard precisely zero since anyone know card actually released , capabilities \( price \) \? info would appreciated geoff sherwood
edm wrs com \( ed mcclanahan \) subject vlb bus master problem \? keywords vlb bus master controller scsi nntp posting host chaos organization wind river systems , inc lines 11 bbn com \( ralph brown \) writes 've yet hear someone running 34f motherboard nt without shutting cache consider heard ! ami enterprise iii eisa vlb w ultrastor 34f edward mcclanahan edm wrs com
munoz bcstec ca boeing com \( david munoz \) subject anybody heard brand 486dx2 33 66 motherboard \? organization boeing x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 18 hi , anyone heard board \? 's 486dx2 33 66 , anyone know work bsd linux \? local pc vendor says 's u brand please e mail possible thanks , david munoz munoz bcstec ca boeing com
calvin pnl gov \( jv \) subject adding second ide drive article oracle 1993apr22 organization battelle pacific northwest labs , richland , wa lines 11 originator calvin pnl gov bought western digital caviar 340mb ide drive want add system already ide drive controller says supports 2 hard drives , plug cables , bios setup , try start system , get invalid drive error message system boots , cannot access new hard drive jumpers drive must set work c set master drive , must set slave drive actual settings info drives available western digital
biernat rtsg mot com \( tim biernat \) subject gateway flash bios upgrade nntp posting host organization motorola , inc , cellular infrastructure group lines 11 article 1993apr20 1 utxvms cc utexas edu dcoleman utxvms cc utexas edu \( daniel coleman \) writes gateway 2000 released new flash bios update local bus systems i'm nice person , uploaded wuarchive wustl edu look glb05 exe msdos uploads section enjoy ! also noticed readme comes n't tell squat , except warn bad things may happen anyone idea terms , say , performance \? tim
maf corp sun com \( mike \) subject scsi dos adding 3rd drive \? ! organization sun microsystems computer corp , mountain view , ca lines 44 distribution world reply maf corp sun com nntp posting host corp sun com anyone know problems \( 's possible \) adding third hard drive \( scsi \) dos pc currently 386 pc future domain scsi board 2 maxtor scsi drives installed work great , n't problems ! well , want disk space went got another \( larger \) scsi hard disk thinking add chain \( 50pin ribbon 3 connectors \) run fdisk program format initialize disk n't happen pc boots , scsi prom shoots back devices attached board target 0 three disks seen run dos fdisk program format disk , choose select another disk \( option 5 \( dos6 \) \) voila , 's first two disks show problem , third disk found argh ! ideas anyone \? \? \? \? \? thanks advance ! mike sun microsystems computer corporation e mail maf corp sun com work \( 415 \) 336 \( n \) x \( \) x x x sierra hotel , check six f16 falcon
schauf iastate edu \( brian j schaufenbuel \) subject monitors nanao \? organization iowa state university , ames , ia lines 34 article netcom com netcom com \( keh cheng chu \) writes article c5uw1t 3hi eskimo com johnn eskimo com \( john navitsky \) writes would like monitor handle high resolutions like 1024x1024 ni want high resolution monitor monitor need large \( 17 \) meets brief requirements outlined 've happy 16 suns could probably cope smaller home i'm interested anyone details high quality sony hitatchi monitors since seem used sun 's fairly often look pretty good \( least \) n't seem brought c p h often mag viewsonic give new viewsonic 17 good look seen side side old viewsonic 7 , mag 17 , nanao 17 \( trinitron one \) , sony oem 17 \( trinitron tube \) new viewsonic beat easily terms picture quality , think far superior 16 sun staring place asks 1178 would bought bought 15 nanao week earlier \( keh cheng tube viewsonic 17 use \? support 1600x1280 \? 've looking philips 1762dt uses sony trinitron tube , digital controls , supports , 25mm dot pitch found 1000 brian schaufenbuel brian j schaufenbuel art one government sooner learns 3644 halsted draining money pockets ames , ia people especially college students adam smith
keith hawaii edu \( keith horton \) subject cardinal 9000 vl bus graphics card \? \? article organization utexas mail news gateway lines 6 nntp posting host cs utexas edu anyone experience familiar cardinal p9000 vl bus graphics card \? would appreciate knowing think capabilities thanks keith
unity ncsu edu \( josip nmi \) subject ibm \? article ncsu 1993apr22 organization ncsu lines 10 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 one monitors appears function ok , anything standard \( cga , ega , vga \) plug gives fuzzy diagonal noise also graphics board apparently 3270 graphic board \( double card 2 8 bit bus connectors , 9 pin female connector picture monitor \) tried plugging two standard avail one connect \( monitor seems relatively high quality , i'm curious \) \? special drivers setup needed ca n't locate jumpers card
cs yorku ca \( chin h lam \) subject gateway 2000 zeos compare article distribution world organization york university , dept computer science lines 8 think buying new computer mail order , looking gateway 2000 66v zeos 's system better \( terms value , price , , service \) , canada , wonder level service states \? thank advice ! thomas
lee tosspot sv com \( lee reynolds \) subject bbs \? organization ludus associates , incorporated lines 11 hm , 've found dtk customer support bbs anyone know run one \? \( hands possibly useful cards made either manufacturer docs drivers ! g \) please email directly happen number lee \( lee tosspot sv com \)
itu1 \( \) subject et4000 linear mode \? \? article hippo 1993apr22 organization rhodes university , grahamstown , south africa lines 10 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 hi heard linear mode et4000 , 1mb video memory linearly instead usual 64k pages anyone know \? enable address video memory mapped \? stellenbosch , rsa cs sun ac za
sr hp com \( rob \) subject gateway flash bios upgrade organization division month club x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 2 lines 15 daniel coleman \( dcoleman utxvms cc utexas edu \) wrote gateway 2000 released new flash bios update local bus systems i'm nice person , uploaded wuarchive wustl edu look glb05 exe msdos uploads section enjoy ! blindly installed n't problems noticed differences yet ! note backup previous bios , tool ship rob live edge robert 707 577 hewlett hp packard hp santa rosa , ca telnet 1 577 mail stop sr hp com
mt olympus \( zeus son \) subject 17 monitors nntp posting host wam umd edu organization workstations maryland , university maryland , college park lines 77 article gazette bcm tmc edu tso cephalo neusc bcm tmc edu \( dan ts'o \) writes article cs mcgill ca gerardis cs mcgill ca \( gif emporium \) writes nec 5fg \( also available nec 5fge difference , accucolor \) experiences opinions people used nec 5fg would appreciated since want get one right exams done \( ie week \) 5fg think great n't seen nanao 's ca n't compare , 5fg image sharp color contrast extremely good 've used trinitron monitors \( e g sun color monitors , 19 trinitron \) , think 5fg least good , perhaps brighter , none silly horizontal lines running across btw , could wrong , thought 5fge slower well missing accucolor may able handle 1280x1024 way 5fg believe pc mag said 5fge ca n't 1280x1024 cheers , dan ts'o div neuroscience 713 798 3100 baylor college medicine 1 baylor plaza houston , tx tso cephalo neusc bcm tmc edu , nextstep \( tm \) news reader , posting n 7 9o 9c ! 5r b ! wt 7 ua f l , 3 \( p \) g c r , `i r9 qt dv , qt , c ! ' r , , qt 0x , ! ' u c r , qt v ! ' x , qf , qb , qi , qu ! 9g , r ! \) b ! \( pq c4r , \( ! ! 7 c f \) c 6 , n \( 5' , g rd w \) 5s ep b ! \) b ! \( q 7 ! \) w n x0 \) 7 , n 6 g 6ql f \( a4 4 \( 5m r 2 ! w , \( xn bx \( 5 w \( f w \( l v \( '1h92 ! 14 , \( n 'd 9 cx \( b` \( 5x 5r \( r \( p \( 9r vt 5o qe \( ' h r ! \( cx ! 14 , \( ' \( \) e \( p ' \) 5d \( ' f e \( v n ! r ! \( ' \) \( f \( ym 2 ! e r ! f4 \( 1o f4 ee b ! u ! \( ' 9g \) 2 ! n w ep b ! cx 4d ! \( 5 ! f0 ai fl 70 7 , 9w \) \( ! \( '1h92 ! r \( ' \( e cx 8v n \) w0 8v \( 7 , 2 ! r ! f0 ae \( r \( \( \( ie \( \( dg f4 7 e9 ! ae b ! 4 vx 6 n g , 82 ! 3 6x 4u , r \( \( uo fet w \) ! w ec ! r ! \( \( b ! 4 ! f0 ai fl ae \( 5 1r ! r ! ! ! r ! g v p b ! \) ! \( \) r 6 h 5r ! f0 \( b ! ! ! 6ql 2 ! h w \) f n l \( qi \( ' \) u fyi f 86 r w ep b` \) ! \) \( \( \) e \( ' r ! b 70 ! \( '1h870 ae \( 5 7 , \( \( ' e q cx , ! ! 0t , 3u \( n \( et \( ua 2 ! n w0 86 \) ! r ! h 4 , 3 \( x , ' q , \( \( '1h92 ! ae \( 5 b ! \( p \) \( \) e ee f4 4 , 6 g \( ' 60 ! ! , c p p , ep cx 0d \) \) p b` \) 0e 5' , g b` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ! \( ye 7 \) v \( ` \( `w , 3 , 3 , q , ! cx \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` 0f r \( v8 6 f5 cx \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` , 2 ! w \( 4 qa f , b` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ! \( n ! 46 ` p , \( ` \( ! v l uc 2 ! cx \? 0h `
vixie pa dec com \( paul vixie \) subject 17 monitor rgb sync vga \? \? organization dec network systems lab lines 15 distribution usa nntp posting host pa dec com reply rash access digex com 's message 18 apr 1993 18 46 08 0400 yes , monitor 3 bnc 's , expecting get composite sync signal green \? ought little black box takes vga signalling \( horiz , vert , composite sync different pins , plus r , g , b pairs \) green composite sync together output 's 1v analog , far know build op amps n't think get shielding done well enough handle frequencies involved without lots shadows junk screen anyone know vga rgb \( composite sync green \) converter \? paul vixie , dec network systems lab palo alto , california , usa n't rebel , vixie pa dec com decwrl ! vixie 're thing , anyway find paul com vixie ! paul path , stay
newbury tec army mil \( george newbury \) subject hot cpu \? distribution na organization u army engineering center , ft , va lines 21 kushmer bnlux1 bnl gov \( christopher kushmerick \) writes hot cpu 486 33 dx machine \? currently gets hot hold finger 0 5 keep big fan blowing , considering using heat sink advice \? 1 n't hold finger 2 cooking use small pan sure spill liquids components 3 plan cook number small cooling fans designed mount chip plug power supply look consumer shoppers innovative person could design produce heat sink could used keep coffee warm , might even buy pentium !
subject date stuck l dragon lonestar org \( mel white \) distribution world organization two ravens bbs lines 12 date time problems , might problem dallas clock chip \( i'm making possibly bad assumption system clock chip 's standard dallas clock chip \) always look battery clock chip things go wrong least , first course action mel white data services city garland , texas mel white l dragon lonestar org two ravens bbs 1 214 618 asp member bbs fidonet 1 124 window world ! listserv lonestar org
himb iniki soest hawaii edu \( liz camarra \) subject hercules vlb \? organization school ocean earth science technology lines 36 article 1993apr22 adobe com sherwood adobe com \( geoffrey sherwood \) writes wife purchased viewsonic 17 , looking graphics card drive want 70hz refresh , would really like handle cd roms tried orchid p9000 , neither things \( though robert say 70hz possible driver data base \) thoughts go back hercules supposed coming vlb version graphite around end march heard precisely zero since anyone know card actually released , capabilities \( price \) \? hmm cd rom program must using oddball vga modes think trying get end month , released though 'll limited quantities , think quite back order right \( 2 megs version come bit later \) since viewsonic 17 \( think horizontal frequency right \? \) , 're gonna love 2 megs version 75hz , 80hz , 1024x768x256 90hz \( ! \) , 1024x768x65536 75hz also 640x480x16 mil bit 90hz , bad n't high bandwidth monitor like \) \) \( modes need monitor , otherwise 'll use lower refresh rate \) want info coming graphite vl , go ibm hardware section compuserve \( \) , video sig 're several hercules reps helpful stephen lau , elec engineering , univ hawaii n't account grad school starts \( autumn 93 \) death fm synthesis ! go gus !
flipper unit \( stig \) subject promise caching ide controller keywords promise technology caching ide organization unit lines 46 article dove nist gov gov \( david 303 497 \) writes looking help right place anyone experience promise technology caching ide controller \? ordered one , 110 512k installed , questions 1 easy use \? need kind tsr 's , completely transparent system board , wo n't change bios configuration \? yes , 's easy use 's like ordinary controller n't change bios config 2 transparent ide drive \? work drive configured explicity type drive installed \? 's transparent works drive change drive need change bios config usual 3 work dual drive system \( master slave \) \? yes , problem 4 , need smartdrive dos buffers \? depends get little better performance use smartdrive buffers addition 's access card isa bus slower access system ram n't use smartdrive , buffers 5 promise technology controller good one \? information would greatly appreciated thanks ! david gov anything stated opinion ! rule great people greatly admire appear thinking deep thoughts , probably thinking lunch stig
frank cs yorku ca \( frank \) subject phone number mitsumi \? \? \? article distribution world organization york university , dept computer science lines 10 i'm trying get touch mitsumi anyone number \? frank technical assistant , department computer science v v york university \( toronto , canada \) , internet frank cs yorku ca !
tony backyard bellcore com \( tony \) subject ultrastor nntp posting host backyard bellcore com organization bellcore lines 6 hi , body experience ultrastor driver package \? also need phone number ultrastor \( 's book \) cannot find company listing computer shopper thanks advance tony \( 908 \) 699
beta lanl gov \( david \) subject info motherboard warehouse \? organization los alamos national laboratory distribution na lines 9 anyone share experiences , good bad , tempe vendor named motherboard warehouse \? i'm considering purchasing one 486dx2 66 boards one selling points 10 day full money back guarantee thanks advance , dave beta lanl gov
michael b taylor dartmouth edu \( michael b taylor \) subject help adding scsi drive \( coexist ide \? \) yes 1993apr22 oracle us oracle com organization dartmouth college , hanover , nh lines 21 x posted internews 1 dartmouth edu article 1993apr22 oracle us oracle com ebosco us oracle com \( eric bosco \) writes dont think mix two types drive , unless one scsi ide cards available turn ide true \? \? \? impression people net scsi ide working together scsi ide drive working together years scsi supposedly pretty transparent types drives \( esdi , rll , ide , etc \) oftentimes need get correct drivers get work odd environments information purposes , st 01 card drive maxtor drive generic ide controller running together also scsi setup work combination rll drive , 1 drive
dundee ncr com \( sean gordon \) subject help , need mac se modem port pc 25 way serial port cable reply dundee ncr com \( sean gordon \) distribution world organization ncr e dundee lines 14 i'm trying connect mac se modem port pc 25 way serial port , someone provide wiring diagram null modem lead setup please use email since news feed bit thanks advance sean gordon sean gordon dundee ncr com include stdio h ncr \( e \) ltd long 10000 , b , c 2800 , , e , f 2801 , g main \( \) \( b c \) tel \( 0382 \) f b 5 \( 0 , g c 2 c 14 , printf \( 4d , e \) , fax \( 0382 \) e \) \( b c f b , f b g , g , b b \)
michael flood channel1 com \( michael flood \) subject cpu fans article channel1 1993apr22 1147 reply michael flood michael flood channel1 com distribution comp organization channel 1 communications lines 30 nmp mfltd co uk \( nic percival \( \) \) wrote got 66mhz 486dx2 system , considering getting fan cpu processor running hot touch think \( stuff deleted \) 66 dx2 week old custom built using pc power cooling cpu cooler one precision ball bearings motor pretty substantial heat sink happened fail would still probably dissipate heat bare chip attaches peel adhesive full size case , fan gravity favor would little nervous finding fan bottom tower case happened let go cpu fans know powered drive cable board type fans isa boards couple fans mounted powered slot n't know effective maybe someone else could comment cpu cool enough touch pcp c unit pc connection 800 243 8088 29 95 5 00 next day delivery cord 7 00 n't spare lead power supply pcp c make best power supplies available imho channel 1 \( r \) cambridge ,
kari canberra edu au \( jason wolfgang \) subject problems parallel organization info sci eng , university canberra , australia lines 9 writing program uses parallel port problem need generate interrupt ack line get occur , unable generate interrupts someone suggest may resolve problem thanks
uucp \( \) subject canon canada organization land darkside bbs \( 519 \) 888 lines 6 would someone please leave full address canon canada thank via uci v1 21 \( c net amiga \) uucp uucp
phil howtek mv com \( phil hunt \) subject motherboard manufacturer slot \? organization howtek , inc reply phil howtek mv com \( phil hunt \) x mailer uaccess macintosh release 1 6v2 lines 42 hi , bought , net , mini tower system works fine , docs motherboard anyone know manufacturer named wpi \? board related chip connector name says \( c \) 1991 , wpi also , board connector end motherboard , looks like 387 socket 387 math coprocessor 386 386 chip j signs isa slots p jumpers turbo kb etc e marked r signs 8 banks simm sockets connectors mystery connectors ! ! ! ! connector \? place plug extra memory board \? 've seen mentioned motherboard docs allow 8 meg card 8 meg simms \? phil phil hunt wherever go , ! howtek , inc internet phil howtek mv com uucp decvax harvard ! mv ! howtek ! phil
brahms udel edu \( oliver p weatherbee \) subject new windows drivers cirrus gd5426 graphic cards nntp posting host brahms udel edu organization university delaware lines 43 uploaded recent windows drivers cirrus gd5426 chip based display cards uploads directory ftp cica indiana edu \( file zip \) 're recent , downloaded cirrus bbs \( 570 226 \) last night unable get , email maybe upload sites well local bus based card \( vl24 bitblaster micron \) think drivers work isa cards \( least includes drivers \) found new drivers significant improvement 1 2 version , improving graphic winmarks \( v3 11 \) 2 million \( 7 77 9 88 \) although could result intentional benchmark cheating cirrus 's part n't think steve gibson 's \( columnist info world \) graphic card comparisons \( also found cica ftp site name winadv zip \) extracted following sake comparison wintach 11 word cad paint overall steve 's system 486 33 vlb ati graphics ultra pro 9 33 10 34 20 78 8 28 14 90 13 58 system 486sx 33 vlb vl24 bitblaster 9 88 8 65 11 71 18 84 15 40 13 65 viper , think hell deal third cost ati card compared cards included gibson 's review micron system owner 's , would interested hear opinions dtc local bus disk controller system came maxtor drive \( 120 mb \) first giving disk winmarks 16 kb , 22 kb good gets \? ca n't get norton 's disk reading intercepts calls , least program said oliver weatherbee oliver earthview
brahms udel edu \( oliver p weatherbee \) subject micron computer owners , please read ! nntp posting host brahms udel edu organization university delaware lines 43 uploaded recent windows drivers cirrus gd5426 chip based display cards uploads directory ftp cica indiana edu \( file zip \) 're recent , downloaded cirrus bbs \( 570 226 \) last night unable get , email maybe upload sites well local bus based card \( vl24 bitblaster micron \) think drivers work isa cards \( least includes drivers \) found new drivers significant improvement 1 2 version , improving graphic winmarks \( v3 11 \) 2 million \( 7 77 9 88 \) although could result intentional benchmark cheating cirrus 's part n't think steve gibson 's \( columnist info world \) graphic card comparisons \( also found cica ftp site name winadv zip \) extracted following sake comparison wintach 11 word cad paint overall steve 's system 486 33 vlb ati graphics ultra pro 9 33 10 34 20 78 8 28 14 90 13 58 system 486sx 33 vlb vl24 bitblaster 9 88 8 65 11 71 18 84 15 40 13 65 viper , think hell deal third cost ati card compared cards included gibson 's review micron system owner 's , would interested hear opinions dtc local bus disk controller system came maxtor drive \( 120 mb \) first giving disk winmarks 16 kb , 22 kb good gets \? ca n't get norton 's disk reading intercepts calls , least program said oliver weatherbee oliver earthview
mcb mach eng hou compaq com \( mike \) subject monitors nanao \? organization compaq computer corp lines 12 use nanao 20 multisync switch windows 1024x768 sparc 1 display works quite well resolutions michael c unix system support system engineer , sr design environment automation compaq computer corporation internet mcb compaq com p box uunet uunet ! cpqhou ! houston , texas , usa 2000 phone 713 374 texas speed bumps views opinions mine alone
avinash genesis nred us subject com4 card shows com3 com4 's address irq ! keywords com port gurus , help ! distribution usa organization genesis public access unix 1 508 664 lines 35 internal modem configure com4 irq 3 , insert card dos 5 02 pc , shows com3 , irq3 com4 's address \( 2e8 \) ! get debug , dump data 40 0 , shows address 2e8 belonging com3 even though modem com4 , know modem working correctly since tested different pc shows correctly com4 , 2e8 , irq3 make work dos 5 02 pc , configure modem com3 , 2e8 , irq3 though comm program allows , fax program came modem work anyway , would like computer display modem set , com4 run diagnostic programs , help displayed modem com4 , others displayed com3 using windows , dos problem help pointers appreciated various reasons , must modem work com4 , thus switching com ports answer \( last time posted , get dos specific answer , time included specific information please help ! \) avinash chopde avinash acm org avinash chopde avinash acm org avinash genesis nred us
michael b taylor dartmouth edu \( michael b taylor \) subject new 1 gig scsi 2 3 5 5400 rpm drives ratings \? x posted internews 1 dartmouth edu organization dartmouth college , hanover , nh lines 16 've noticed recent proliferation 1 gig scsi 2 3 5 drives , particular , fujitsu micropolis 2112 also maxtor \( 6100 rpm , 1 2 gig \) drive quite cheap , nice 3 5 year warranties questions catch \? one better \? type scsi 2 drives use \? service generally better one manufacturers \? prices likely go soon reason \? thanks , michael taylor
koberg spot colorado edu \( allen koberg \) subject dos 6 0 nntp posting host spot colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 45 article mosque cs huji ac il cs huji ac il \( danny \) writes well , 've installed dos 6 0 three different systems , without stacker friend installed two systems , stacker single problem \( except perhaps minor bugs config sys menus \) 's right ya know 've helped install dos 6 4 computers , mine included one , bought stacker doublespace converter , worked fine \( rather , sent coupon converter \) cases , 've run doublespace installation without problem compressing new drive , compressing free space , whatever else seems work , , repeat , run program called install setup sophisticated ai auto configuring setup installation program think never wanted could n't stop well , ran normal setup thing worked fine whatever 's worth also , dblspace crap writes 40 slower stacker , reads 20 slower , compresses 10 less tests made computer disk , cache , \( big \) files used could n't agree 486 50 n't miss speed 's still faster normal disk read would less compression , 've sacrificed favor convenience dblspace bin load anything else stacker , changes config sys autoexec bat meant rebooting twice could update personally , i'm waiting stacker 4 0 come implement hooks stuff plus , defrag comes dos okay , much prefer compress pc tools sheer plus , defrag sooooo dblspace drive , dos 6 quite good reformat disks \? honestly n't understand ditto koberg
mizzou1 missouri edu \( handy \) subject help needed installing 2nd ide hd nntp posting host mizzou1 missouri edu organization university missouri lines 16 greetings i'm novice messing comp hardware original ide hd western digital came system bought got ide hd maxtor wanted add slave drive change jumper settings maxtor configure slave drv , n't change anything 42m western dig , since n't doc predicted , gave error message hdd controller , take 42m install hd help matter would much appreciated \( trashed \) thankx much handy mizzou1 missouri edu
randy ellingson subject scsi ide bottom line reply randy msc cornell edu organization cornell university lines 26 would choose , \? like lots people , 'd really like increase data transfer rate hard drive right 15ms 210mb ide drive \( seagate \) , standard ide controller card isa 486 50 i'm currently thinking adding another hd , 300mb 500mb range i'm thinking hard buying scsi drive \( scsi future benefit \) believe i'm getting something like 890kb sec transfer right \( according nu \) would number compare bought state art scsi card isa pc , state art scsi hard drive \( best system could hope \) \? obviously money factors choice well , would want use isa system \? much would cost \? along lines , kind transfer rate could see ide hd 's buy top line ide caching controller 200mb , 15ms hd \? much would cost \? thanks comments randy
kin chan cmu edu subject floptical drives anyone \? \? organization freshman , math computer science , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 13 nntp posting host po2 andrew cmu edu curious floptical drives never seemed catch remember 21 mb disks look feel like 3 5 floppies \? drives scsi devices read write 720 kb 1 44 21 mb disks sounds one great product pc market prices really compared cd roms currently \? know new cds expect sony develop first mds computer question n't substantial interest developing flopticals \? thought kin chan cmu edu
jim n5ial mythical com \( jim graham \) subject help panasonic kx 1124 printer article n5ial 1993apr22 143320 organization , \? \? \? must joking lines 42 article vill edu vill edu \( \) writes panasonic kx 1124 \( inherited documentation \) giving problem cant resolve kx 're talking \? kx 1124 , \? 'll assume forgot p paper light refuses go light also power light \( blinking \) means power turned look panel , read power paper right \? starts blink ever turn power 2 beeps n't know would , unless 're paper , allow go line green light lit , red paper light also remains lit blink power printer , assuming paper , red power light \( , flashing , doubles paper \) light , seconds later , green online light come hope helps jim include std disclaimer h 73 de n5ial \( 4 \) internet jim n5ial mythical com j graham ieee org icbm 30 23n 86 32w amateur radio n5ial w4zbb \( ft walton beach , fl \) amtor selcal nial e mail information kamterm \( host mode kantronics tncs \)
akasacou alfred carleton ca \( alexander \) subject ez scan ii model 35 organization carleton university , ottawa , canada lines 20 recently picked page scanner name ez scan ii model 35 software made per windows 3 x windows work windows one could find company made beast \( copyrights say 1987 \) name gms division anyone know companies still exist , email address \? , anyone knows freeware shareware programme able access scanner thanks advance , please email group scrolls way quickly akasacou alfred ccs carleton ca \( aka \) alexander master 's public administration programme , carleton university opinions expressed mine like anyone else would admit
johng matt ksu ksu edu \( \) subject wanted hard drive buy trade \( 80 mb \) organization kansas state university lines 20 nntp posting host matt ksu ksu edu greetings , looking upgrade hard drive much bigger one since find kinda cramped space , never filled would like extra comfort 30 megs anyone would like sell trade 80 meg bigger hard drive 125 straight 75 trade please e mail back ksu ksu edu offer would also sell hard drive 60 really want 's western digital ide sure transfer rate , pretty fast faster teac drive running 5 months never problem would guarantee works upon thanks john p would love maxtor 130 hard drive
cc usu edu subject wanted 386dx 33 motherboard organization utah state university lines 10 anyone wants sell used 386dx 33 motherboard \? one please let know price specification also interested buying trident vga card \( 1meg \) park
penev rockefeller edu \( penio penev \) subject 66dx2 isa , vlb xor 50dx eisa \? \? advice wanted reply penev venezia rockefeller edu organization rockefeller university x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 x posted venezia rockefeller edu nntp posting host sol ctr columbia edu lines 25 thu , 22 apr 1993 15 43 32 gmt glen \( glen tegra com \) wrote article 1993apr22 julian uwo ca rmitch irus rri uwo ca \( ross mitchell \) writes choice basically system 486dx2 66 isa vlb , , 486dx 50 eisa vlb \( thus non local bus version ati card \) better , keeping mind i'm primarily interested last two tasks \? april 13 issue pc magazine published benchmarks ati running vlb eisa 800x600 , 16 800x600 , 256 1024x768 , 16 1024x768 , 256 eisa 15 34 15 34 15 19 15 15 vlb 16 02 16 31 16 33 16 24 speed many windows tasks original poster \( ross mitchell \) primary manipulating large images , implies moving lot data memory card anyone benchmarks particular task \? penio penev x7423 \( 212 \) 327 7423 \( w \) internet penev venezia rockefeller edu disclaimer oppinions mine
nelson crynwr com \( russell nelson \) subject ip numbers ethernet cards distribution world organization crynwr software lines 16 article 1993apr21 217 uvm edu djohnson moose uvm edu writes possible either pin configuration software programming change ip numbers ethernet card \? ethernet card n't use ip number \( 32 bits , usually \) uses ethernet address \( 48 bits , usually \) never run across ethernet controller cannot programmed use address assigned decnet requires feature however , said , reason ever change ethernet address globally unique , first three bytes assigned manufacturer ieee , last three manufacturer russ nelson crynwr com thou say \? crynwr software crynwr software sells packet driver support 11 grant st 315 268 1925 voice lpf member ask , ny 315 268 fax harm software patents
longs lance colostate edu \( blake \) subject dell \? ariel design \? austin \? insight \? royal \? hd computers \? distribution usa reply longs lance colostate edu \( blake \) nntp posting host blanca lance colostate edu organization colorado state university , fort collins , co 80523 lines 13 ok , 've heard comtrade , gateway , tc , various others impressions dealings dell , ariel design , austin , insight , royal , hd computers \? responses e mail preferred reduce usenet bandwidth summarize responses another posting week blake colorado state university longs lance colostate edu electrical computer engineering
chris crayton ozonehole com \( chris crayton \) subject help 8088 80286 distribution world organization ozone online operations , inc new orleans , la reply chris crayton ozonehole com \( chris crayton \) lines 18 humble response letter g scott written 04 21 93 20 43 286 upgrade would probably cost 50 , 386 150 coprocessors accelerator cards would cost least much 'tis true ! saw add 286 20 motherboards 80 seen whole 286 12 systems , complete case , power supply , keyboard , floppy , mono card monitor going 250 man , , shall look upon like blue wave qwk v2 10 ozone hole bbs private bulletin board service \( 504 \) 891 3142 3 full service nodes usrobotics 16 8k bps 10 gigs 100 , 000 files skydive new orleans ! rime network mail hub 500 usenet newsgroups please route questions inquiries postmaster ozonehole com
chris crayton ozonehole com \( chris crayton \) subject null modem c distribution world organization ozone online operations , inc new orleans , la reply chris crayton ozonehole com \( chris crayton \) lines 22 humble response letter gordon lang written 04 21 93 22 09 gl interrested simple concept null gl modem cable \( actually idea , n't count last gl statement \) i'm asking pins use \( gl 's specifications \? \) want solder one instead gl buying one n't even know port used may want save trouble go radio shack null modem adapter 9 pin connector necessary pins allow two machines communicate lot easier soldering connections , usually bit reliable p e people eating tasty animals blue wave qwk v2 10 ozone hole bbs private bulletin board service \( 504 \) 891 3142 3 full service nodes usrobotics 16 8k bps 10 gigs 100 , 000 files skydive new orleans ! rime network mail hub 500 usenet newsgroups please route questions inquiries postmaster ozonehole com
penev rockefeller edu \( penio penev \) subject questions installing pas16 dx2 66v reply penev venezia rockefeller edu organization rockefeller university x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 x posted venezia rockefeller edu nntp posting host sol ctr columbia edu lines 10 thu , 22 apr 93 20 02 00 gmt john ngai \( ngai nova bellcore com \) wrote went bought pas16 yesterday , installed gateway dx2 66v followed instructions set sb side dma 1 irq5 pas16 \? articles \( reviews \) describing \? penio penev x7423 \( 212 \) 327 7423 \( w \) internet penev venezia rockefeller edu disclaimer oppinions mine
giaec cc monash edu au \( brett paterson \) subject 386 ram work 486 \? lines 21 organization monash university campus , victoria , australia wanting upgrade 386sx 25 , 486dx 33 , looking cheap quote someone offering 486dx 33 motherboard , ram \( probably sell old board somewhere \) , 4 meg ram 386 , consists 4 x 9 module simms , running 70 nanoseconds would encounter problems pointed areas , throwing one computer \? comments gratefully \( e mail preferred \) appreciated brett paterson email giaec cc monash edu au , victoria , australia
ins413j mdw056 cc monash edu au \( markfried fellensiek \) subject high performance vlb video card \? organization monash university x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 14 2 max vesa vl video controller logic chipset \( 2mb ram , 24 bit color , 1280x1024 ni \) 2 \( 2 0 \) support card \? markfried \( please post email \)
ins413j mdw056 cc monash edu au \( markfried fellensiek \) subject diamond products boycot \? organization monash university x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 22 diamond video cards \( stealth , viper , speedstar , etc \) may excellent specifications , windows drivers come might make windows fast , 're considering buying system , view using run unix \( linux , bsd , etc \) special software , good chance work diamond cards due diamond 's propriety attitude 's hardware 's impossible get free information chips \( specifically dot clocks \) without paying , signing non disclosure agreements made impossible free software foundation provide x windows compatibility cards , diamond n't want divulge programming far know diamond propriety 's info mark
penev rockefeller edu \( penio penev \) subject diamond products boycot \? reply penev venezia rockefeller edu organization rockefeller university x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 x posted venezia rockefeller edu nntp posting host sol ctr columbia edu lines 22 fri , 23 apr 1993 07 01 17 gmt markfried fellensiek \( ins413j mdw056 cc monash edu au \) wrote 're considering buying system , view using run unix \( linux , bsd , etc \) special software , good chance work diamond cards due diamond 's propriety attitude 's hardware 's impossible get free information chips \( specifically dot clocks \) without paying , signing non disclosure agreements made impossible free software foundation provide x windows compatibility cards , diamond n't want divulge programming considering , postings diamond 's bad attitute customers , ordered vlb 2m card days penio penev x7423 \( 212 \) 327 7423 \( w \) internet penev venezia rockefeller edu disclaimer oppinions mine
mark physchem ox ac uk \( mark jackson \) subject scsi dos adding 3rd drive \? ! originator mark joule pcl organization physical chemistry laboratory , south parks road , oxford ox1 3qz lines 41 article jethro corp sun com , maf corp sun com \( mike \) writes anyone know problems \( 's possible \) adding third hard drive \( scsi \) dos pc currently 386 pc future domain scsi board 2 maxtor scsi drives installed work great , n't problems ! well , want disk space went got another \( larger \) scsi hard disk thinking add chain \( 50pin ribbon 3 connectors \) run fdisk program format initialize disk n't happen pc boots , scsi prom shoots back devices attached board target 0 three disks seen run dos fdisk program format disk , choose select another disk \( option 5 \( dos6 \) \) voila , 's first two disks show problem , third disk found argh ! ideas anyone \? \? \? \? \? thanks advance ! got adaptec scsi card , comes version fdisk problem dos see two hard disks , need done device drivers mark mark uk ac ox physchem
mark physchem ox ac uk \( mark jackson \) subject chaining ide drives originator mark joule pcl organization physical chemistry laboratory , south parks road , oxford ox1 3qz lines 27 article badry , badry cs ualberta ca \( badry jason theodore \) writes hi trying set conner quantum 80at drive conner set master , quantum set slave \( n't work way around \) able access drives boot floppy , drives boot running msdos 6 , conner partitioned primary dos , formatted system files tried different types setups , even changed ide controller cards boot floppy , everything works great \( except booting part \) \) system n't report error message anything , hangs anyone suggestions , somebody else run similar problem \? thinking might update bios one drives \( possible \? \) suggestions answers would greatly appreciated please reply jason badry badry cs ualberta ca make sure hard disk want boot set active \( using fdisk program comes dos \) mark mark uk ac ox physchem
ncratl atlantaga ncr com \( pat gleason \) subject gateway flash bios upgrade organization ncr engineering manufacturing atlanta atlanta , ga lines 12 lhdsy1 lahabra chevron com kato lahabra chevron com \( w r volz \) writes 1 \) gain new bios \? fixed problem us getting divide errors caused gw bios overwriting memory area problem database programs , also heard fixed problem brief pat gleason maybe something good , maybe something ncratl atlantaga ncr com bad , guess 'll never know !
av uta fi \( arto v \) subject funet fi reply av uta fi \( arto v \) distribution world organization university tampere , finland lines 26 nntp posting host reply perry wswiop15 win tue nl 's message 20 apr 93 19 01 58 gmt 20 apr 93 19 01 58 gmt , perry wswiop15 win tue nl \( perry egelmeers \) said perry nntp posting host wswiop15 win tue nl perry vnet ibm com writes saw posting earlier refered funet fi directory pub msdos however , log funet fi cant even find pub directory let alone msdos directory ! ! ! ! someone tell i'm wrong \? \? perry perhaps try nic funet fi instead funet fi \? \? ! \? ! \? another possibility , give email address password anonymous account , see following message 230 230 entered invalid password , accessing 230 restricted subset files please read readme information 230 special access features , see file readme 230 last updated tue apr 13 23 45 09 1993 9 4 days ago happen , terminal emulator generate ' ' character think \( hard see , since passwords echoed \) arto v internet av cs uta fi university tampere , x 400 av ou cs ut admd c fi finland
gene jackatak raider net \( gene wright \) subject 's best place find used pc 's \( usenet otherwise \) \? organization jack 's amazing cockroach capitalist ventures lines 8 best place find classified type ads used pc 's \? several computer makes wanted sections usenet pc 's compatibles \? 's cheapest place nationally buy used pc systems laptops \? gene jackatak raider net \( gene wright \) jackatak raider net \( 615 \) 377 5980
pauls ehs uiuc edu \( paul \) subject gateway monitor problem ! help distribution usa organization university illinois urbana lines 22 news udel edu ravel udel edu \( joshua smith \) writes , someone else gateway monitor problem , anyone help , please , would much thanks advance ok , local bus 486 66 machine , crystal scan monitor 1 meg memory ati ultra pro , w mach32 driver \( newest release \) problem windows use 1024 mode get shadows sides screens , blurry type corners types screen focus 've gotten replacement video cards , replacement monitor none helped though could someone help problem try removing monitor extension cable reports extension cable problems
bitzm columbia dsu edu \( michael bitz \) subject gateway 4dx 33v high price \? lines 23 organization dakota state university lines 23 well , gateway faxed price sheet seems higher side , , maybe 80486dx 33 mhz 8mb dram \( 70 ns simms \) expandable 250 mb western digital ide \( 13 ms \) dtr local bus ide interface ati ultra pro vl bus 1mb vram 24 bit drivers 15 crystalscan color monitor n't high price keep mind get 8 meg ram , local bus ide svga card , 250 mb hd , 15 monitor local bus ide svga really kick butt windows used couple machines vlb past , praise gateway mike bitz internet bitzm columbia dsu edu research development bitzm dsuvax dsu edu dakota state university bitnet s93020 sdnet bitnet
chris newcastle ac uk \( chris nav arch \) subject motherboard manufacturer nntp posting host summary tel fax tech power organization university newcastle upon tyne , uk , ne1 7ru distribution comp lines 13 anyone hand phone fax number tech power , pc motherboard manufacturer \( may known tech power enterprises \) advance chris e mail chris newcastle ac uk dept marine technology voice 44 91 222 newcastle university fax 44 91 newcastle upon tyne
cs strath ac uk \( john wilson \) subject phillips monitor conversion organization comp sci dept , strathclyde univ , glasgow , scotland lines 37 nntp posting host hunter 06 cs strath ac uk hi , 's another ideas type queries 've given phillips terminal type thingy , without keyboard problem far , discovered really standard rgb monitor built modem rom software etc phillips kindly labelled circuit board rgb inputs , connected monitor presto worked sort problem idea connect sync lines display rolls continuously , change modes \( ok cga useful laptop \) wonderful people knowledge phillips monitors \? 've tried phillips uk helpful guy told several enquiries sort , phillips computer auspices dec \( least uk \) dec said sorry phillips n't make anyway \? uk support dealer said circuit diagrams \? sync \? ideas john quote computer scientists boring 're wonderful , exciting , interesting people happen like talking inanimate objects human
mr com \( reid r \) subject modem problem dialtone organization micro resources x newsreader tin 1 1 pl3 lines 24 dudek acsu buffalo edu \( cybard \) writes worked fine \) please note none software hardware parameters changed , phone line new modem faulty \? \? david thomas dudek ubvms bitnet cybard i'm arguing phone company similar problem installed second phone line home \( kids \) , whenever one line , modem returns dial tone line pick phone listen , hear kids' voices bleed whenever hear , modem wo n't dial \( even though dial tone loud clear modem speaker \) think 's phone company 's problem , say ca n't \( wo n't \? \) correct problem i'm still working reid r sysop heartland bbs micro resources , inc \( 614 \) 846 dublin , ohio unix systems net mr com
rz uni duesseldorf de \( wolfgang r mueller \) subject q internal modems without uart \? organization computing centre , heinrich heine university , duesseldorf , germany lines 8 nntp posting host mueller rz uni duesseldorf de seeing questions uart types , availability , relative merits , would n't fine , internal highspeed modems mode operation bypassing dull stupid uart interface instead accessing directly relatively large send receive buffers modem , thus eliminating problems interrupt \? idea , wolfgang r mueller rz uni duesseldorf de , computing centre , heinrich heine university , duesseldorf , germany
cs strath ac uk \( john wilson \) subject need rules 2 floppy twisted cable installation organization comp sci dept , strathclyde univ , glasgow , scotland lines 26 nntp posting host hunter 06 cs strath ac uk article 1993apr21 ncar ucar edu acd ucar edu \( timothy \) writes looking information install 5 25 floppy drive , 3 25 floppy drive b , twisted cable \( twist two floppy connectors \) , controller example , drives drive select 1 \? depends fdc generally drive end twist set drive 0 terminating resistor pack 's 5 25 floppy \? connector go drive \? since 're using 5 25 drive end twist resistor pack fitted pin 0 connector always correspond pin 0 floppy drive \? yes stuff deleted hope helps exactly problems unfortunately changed different machine problems started different fdc seems \( n't flame , mainly guess work experience \) fdc 's different things select john
cs rmit oz au \( glenn jayaputera \) subject change cluster size organization rmit department computer science lines 5 wondering somebody could tell change cluster size ide drive normally norton 's mfm rll drives dunno ide glenn jayaputera
iisakkil beta hut fi \( mika iisakkila \) subject scsi vs ide reply randy msc cornell edu 's message tue , 13 apr 1993 13 47 11 gmt nntp posting host beta hut fi organization helsinki university technology , finland lines 19 randy msc cornell edu writes scsi cards dos systems require separate device driver loaded memory scsi device hooked \? 've seen also board bios enables use 2 hard drives directly dos \( 2 drives dos limitation problem ide standards matter \) software drivers often allow better performance , though use want use devices besides hard disks 2 disks also true 32 bit os 's \? obviously able use 16 bit real mode written dos , need software drivers 's big deal \( long drivers available \) , wo n't fight low memory problems either segmented memory helps structure software
rosa ghost dsi unimi \( massimo rossi \) subject philips pro monitor \? organization computer science dep milan university lines 8 hi guys anyone could tell resolution work monitor course support 640x480 800x600 1024x768 cirrus card seems n't work clues \? written max rosa ghost sm dsi unimi
pekka hut fi \( pekka j \) subject diamond stealth 24 giving 9 4 winmarks \? reply balog eniac seas upenn edu 's message 19 apr 93 23 20 25 gmt nntp posting host gamma hut fi organization helsinki university technology , finland netnews upenn edu lines 16 article netnews upenn edu balog eniac seas upenn edu \( eric j balog \) writes posting winmark results , good idea give version winbench used obtain scores , well resolution tested version drivers n't anybody actually read licence agreement winbench blindly running \? licence agreement clearly says details hardware configuration , driver , resolution relevant facts must included giving winmark results davis wants everybody requirement makes sense , really ! plain numbers useless resolution , driver machine unknown pekka hut fi
adrie philips nl \( adrie \) subject monitors nanao \? organization philips consumer electronics , eindhoven , netherlands lines 19 article news iastate edu schauf iastate edu \( brian j schaufenbuel \) writes tube viewsonic 17 use \? support 1600x1280 \? 've looking philips 1762dt uses sony trinitron tube , digital controls , supports , 25mm dot pitch found 1000 original poster , john navitsky , said might use monitor sparcstation lx lx able generate picture 1280 1024 76 hz officially , tried set resolution refresh rate lx came non screen tube obviously could n't handle speed 67 hz , worked perfectly buying third party monitor 's going used sparcstation lx , might consider monitor 's fast enough 1280 1024 76hz n't know sure whether lx supports \( sun certainly wo n't tell \) 'll check adrie \( adrie philips nl \) philips consumer electronics , eindhoven , netherlands
rosa ghost dsi unimi \( massimo rossi \) subject l b vs vesa l b organization computer science dep milan university lines 30 hi folks 386 25 mhz i'm buying new 486 first question \) best way share hard disks printer p two pc far 10 meter like use parallel port ethernet card like share resource dos linux os2 1 windows 3 1 nt 2 \) 486 \? think buy 486 dx2 local bus heard board work properly cause true \? 486 dx 50 mhz better solution case buy local bus 's better buy accelerated svga card normal local bus ide controller better buy local bus svga card non accelerated normal ide controller \? 3 \) accelerated local bus possibly true color svga card \? price \? 4 \) need buy cd cheapest able read musical photo kodak computer cd rom heard sony mitsumi best \? controller work \? thank everyone rosa ghost sm dsi unimi
marka hcx1 ssd csd harris com \( mark ashley \) subject 66dx2 isa , vlb xor 50dx eisa \? \? advice wanted organization harris lines 16 nntp posting host hcx1 ssd csd harris com article 1993apr22 julian uwo ca rmitch irus rri uwo ca \( ross mitchell \) writes choice basically system 486dx2 66 isa vlb , , 486dx 50 eisa vlb \( thus non local bus version ati card \) better , keeping mind i'm primarily interested last two tasks \? micronics ami came eisa vlb motherboards byte mag tests indicate vlb faster video eisa faster disk ops 'll wait hopefully start using micronics board mark ashley disclaimer opinions harris' marka gcx1 ssd csd harris com lost los angelino
darryl inmos co uk \( darryl cross \) subject archive qic 02 reply darryl inmos co uk \( darryl cross \) organization inmos iq systems group , bristol , uk lines 15 hi , quick question reguarding pc tape backup 386 dos box archive interface card connected qic 02 tape drive simple question , anybody netland know get software msdos \( ver 5 0 \) run setup , freeware shareware preferred thanks advance , darryl sorry repost i'm still getting grips darryl cross , inmos ltd , mail \( uk \) darryl inmos co uk bristol , uk ukc ! inmos ! darryl tel 44 454 ex 618 \( us \) uunet ! inmos com ! darryl fax 44 454 internet darryl inmos com
ph gmr com \( richard \) subject using xt pwr organization general motors corp lines 22 distribution world reply ph gmr com \( richard \) nntp posting host gmr com planning upgrading old xt compatible system new motherboard , hard drive , 1 4 mb floppy interested using old power supply \( 150 w \) power new hardware , possible told motherboard vendor could probably use supply twelve wires going motherboard \( apparently xt vintage supplies 11 wires 12th wire 5v line used charge motherboard battery \) question anybody tried bringing additional wire 11 wire supply using auxiliary power source charge motherboard battery \? wish buy entirely new power supply make use existing one simple hacks thank information email reply gmr com would fine larry
nyx cs du edu \( tony \) subject help needed organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept lines 16 past week 've trying install qic 36 tape drive everex 8bit full size controller 486dx50 eisa system luck end getting error \( \) streaming read part test pretty certain port setting , irq dma set properly since tape responds properly commands , rewind , , write erase , also booted system clean still also tend eliminate memory conflicts suggested bus speed fast need slow system ami bios n't advanced chip setting option seen systems cant going accept set wo n't work \? anyone suggest work around \? glad hear advice suggestions tony
paladin world std com \( thomas g schlatter \) subject scsi dos adding 3rd drive \? ! organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 35 article 1993apr23 physchem ox ac uk mark physchem ox ac uk \( mark jackson \) writes article jethro corp sun com , maf corp sun com \( mike \) writes anyone know problems \( 's possible \) adding third hard drive \( scsi \) dos pc currently 386 pc future domain scsi board 2 maxtor scsi drives installed work great , n't problems ! well , want disk space went got another \( larger \) scsi hard disk thinking add chain \( 50pin ribbon 3 connectors \) run fdisk program format initialize disk n't happen pc boots , scsi prom shoots back devices attached board target 0 three disks seen run dos fdisk program format disk , choose select another disk \( option 5 \( dos6 \) \) voila , 's first two disks show problem , third disk found got adaptec scsi card , comes version fdisk problem dos see two hard disks , need done device drivers odd , fdisk works fine 2 ide drives scsi drive ultrastor device driver loaded , though
djs6015 ultb isc rit edu \( smith \) subject q address zoom \? nntp posting host ultb gw isc rit edu organization r distribution usa zoom v 32bis modem strange problems , would like contact manufacturer address box address \? telephone number \? thanx , smith smith djs6015 ultb rit edu djs6015 ritvax bitnet finger djs6015 ultb rit edu pgp2 1 public key
david c cat uucp \( dave \) subject courier vs sportster organization intergalactic rest area weary travellers lines 27 cleveland freenet edu \( andy nicola \) writes previous article , cs3sd3ae maccs mcmaster ca \( holly ks \) says difference us robotics courier v32bis external sportster 14400 external \? see price sportster dropped 200 price courier remains 400 anyone knowledge modems anyone owns courier \? sportster 14 4 v 42 error control v 42 bis data compression becoming standard high speed modems difference courier , run 16 8 hst mode run dual standard hst \( usr modem 600 \) 14 , 400 compression error correction , much v 32 v 32bis v 42 v 42bis v 22 etc etc asl \( whatever asl \) david china cat bbs c cat ! david sed csc com \( 301 \) 604 5976 1200 14 , 400 8n1 uunet ! mimsy ! anagld ! c cat ! david
mbunix mitre org \( morris \) subject soundblaster irq port settings nntp posting host mbunix mitre org organization mitre corporation , bedford , lines 42 discussing use irq 7 recent article superior \( mike sprague \) writes number poeple thread already written \( ca n't prove 's true , believe \) , lpt1 actually use irq7 , even though interrupt supposed dedicated lpt1 put little differently irq 7 de facto standard interrupt assigned used printer adapter announce completion activity dos n't monitor irq 7 uses means determine 's time send another byte printer \( \? \) \( hardware \) printer adapters ability disable use irq 7 , usually merely breaking connection isa pin associated driver adapters control irq line tri state driver , programming leave high impedence mode unfortunately , lot adapter cards use drivers \( e , either assert high assert low \) irq lines rather drivers \( assert high , assert low , n't assert anything \) presence card irq line precludes use irq adapter unless physically disconnected jumper \( incidentally , note 's requirement card hold irq line low interrupt desired true would somehow tie unconnected irq lines , certainly n't requirement \) non dos operating systems \( os 2 , nt \( \? \) , various whatever proper plural unix might \) require use irq 7 performance reasons , alas , one cards uses drivers joe morris mitre \( mitre org \)
ab245 cleveland freenet edu \( sam latonia \) subject monitors nanao \? organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 7 nntp posting host slc10 ins cwru edu good report list good monitors months issue computer shoppers magazine , phone \( april issue \) 2 99 sam gosh think installed virus called ms dos6 n't copy floppy burn love windows crash
michael flood michael flood channel1 com subject vlb scsi card suggest reply michael flood michael flood channel1 com distribution comp organization channel 1 communications lines 22 wam umd edu \( satan \) wrote someone recommend decent vesa local bus scsi controller card \? saw post ultrastor something , wondering would good choice \? need supported card software like march nt beta recognize buslogic announced fast scsi 2 vlb interface april 20 always happens ! one week old isa version enjoying spectacular performance micropolis 3 5 hh 5200 rpm drive 'll changing soon , though difficult imagine even higher transfer speeds 32bit vesa support call buslogic ask 'em nt question hear support excellent call yet regards channel 1 \( r \) cambridge ,
bs tekig7 pen tek com \( robert l \) subject dos 6 0 organization tektronix , inc , beaverton , lines 21 article 1993apr23 ucsu colorado edu koberg spot colorado edu \( allen koberg \) writes article mosque cs huji ac il cs huji ac il \( danny \) writes also , dblspace crap writes 40 slower stacker , reads 20 slower , compresses 10 less tests made computer disk , cache , \( big \) files used could n't agree 486 50 n't miss speed 's still faster normal disk read would less compression , koberg recall reading review article pc computing wherein reported reduction loading time lengthy programs using stacker 3 0 due compression algorithm per se , fact fewer required sequential file access anyone actual performance numbers relating speeds stacker dblspace \? bs
lance hartmann austin ibm com \( lance hartmann \) subject dx50 vs dx266 organization ibm , austin lines 18 article rpi edu arnolm2 aix rpi edu \( matthew richard arnold \) writes would someone willing explain 486dx 50mhz popular \? would think would fast , faster 486dx 66mhz certian applications plus , 50mhz motherboard would seem better plans upgrading chip future must missing something , since everyone buying dx2 66 many adds n't even mention dx 50 one things going dx2 66 \( 50 \) 's clock speed complies vesa local bus spec lance hartmann \( lance hartmann austin ibm com ibmpa awdpa ibm com \) yes , ' ' \( percent sign \) network address statements , comments , opinions , etc herein reflect author shall misconstrued ibm anyone else matter
lance hartmann austin ibm com \( lance hartmann \) subject diamond products boycot \? reply lance hartmann austin ibm com ibmpa awdpa ibm com organization ibm , austin lines 26 article 1993apr23 monu6 cc monash edu au ins413j mdw056 cc monash edu au \( markfried fellensiek \) writes diamond video cards \( stealth , viper , speedstar , etc \) may excellent specifications , windows drivers come might make windows fast , fellow diamond video board owners 've may may share opinion proprietary scheme , 've thrilled window 's drivers , either modes work fine , others cause strange objects , trails , etc many also voiced strong discontent diamond 's attitude toward os 2 drivers come think , though , hear see lot complaints ati boards , though recent word looks like build 59 code looks much better anyone accelerated video board drivers windows \( os 2 \? \) modes function properly \? anyone \? anyone \? lance hartmann \( lance hartmann austin ibm com ibmpa awdpa ibm com \) yes , ' ' \( percent sign \) network address statements , comments , opinions , etc herein reflect author shall misconstrued ibm anyone else matter
des inmos co uk \( david shepherd \) subject floptical drives anyone \? \? x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 45 kin chan \( cmu edu \) wrote curious floptical drives never seemed catch remember 21 mb disks look feel like 3 5 floppies \? drives scsi devices read write 720 kb 1 44 21 mb disks sounds one great product pc market prices really compared cd roms currently \? know new cds expect sony develop first mds computer question n't substantial interest developing flopticals \? certainly uk flopticals price cheap cd rom \( seem able get around 200 250 \) however bigger optical drives \( e g 128mb \) much expensive around 1000 mark couple questions someone may able answer flopticals direct drop replacements floppy need driver software etc e rip floppy drive , plug cables floptical , stick disk hey presto floppy sounds far easy subject sony developing mds computers , reread pcw article subject says sony optical drives people time may product article seems audio md format byproduct computer storage work md mechanism identical mo computer optical drives sony spokesman quoted saying 2 5 md disk would hold 100mb data though refused comment possibility article said one problems holding back development area lack sensible standards plus least 2 distinct optical storage mechanisms around present given probably needs mds used distribution medium get market since already cds probably needs someone come strong lead get mds accepted david shepherd des inmos co uk tel x 625 inmos ltd , 1000 west , , bristol , n't like rates , n't like poll tax , wo n't like council tax nicholas ridley
tmc spartan ac brocku ca \( tim ciceran \) subject cached organization brock university , st catharines ontario x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 11 reading many postings concerning hard drives i'm still unclear one thing new cached hard drives cache drive separate , like controller something \? thanks anyone clear tmc \( tmc spartan ac brocku ca \)
goyal utdallas edu \( mohit k goyal \) subject looking comments compaq deskpro 's nntp posting host apache utdallas edu organization univ texas dallas lines 10 hello , experience knowledge comments advice etc compaq 's eisa deskpro machines , please reply \( preferably via email \) i'm thinking getting one looking user comments thanks ps i'm looking 66
ab245 cleveland freenet edu \( sam latonia \) subject help led connectors motherboard organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 44 nntp posting host slc10 ins cwru edu article \( last \) newsgroups comp sys ibm pc hardware magnus acs ohio state edu \( stassen lantz \) subject help led connectors motherboard date thu apr 22 09 02 48 1993 bought 386dx 40 motherboard 50 documentation everything appears work , except i'm trouble getting led connectors working 've looked manuals 4 motherboards , pin configuration n't look anything like board pin arrangement look familiar anyone \? \? \? hints find information \? 1 10 speaker keylock 11 20 board came jumper vertically across two pins get power keylock work across pins 11 15 , reset across pins 9 shown 82 , press space , quit , 'h' help 19 , would prefer blow something experimentation date board 6 92 , opti chips would really appreciate help , thank advance n stassen lantz end file , press return quit , would realy realy help said chipset board upgradable board old bios \? \? \? sam gosh think installed virus called ms dos6 n't copy floppy burn love windows crash
ab245 cleveland freenet edu \( sam latonia \) subject help ide drive installation problems organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 28 nntp posting host slc10 ins cwru edu article \( last \) newsgroups comp sys ibm pc hardware qwerty tunisia ssc gov \( kris schludermann \) subject help ide drive installation problems date thu apr 22 12 11 58 1993 i'm trouble installing second ide drive promise ide caching controller first drive conner works fine second drive conner , currently slave drive problem slave drive recognized reported back free space disabling cache made effect else check \? krispy end file , press return quit krispy , lets start promise controller ther 4 6 made one dc 99m needs nothing done install stated hd know running fdisk formatting finished fdisk operation right ! sam gosh think installed virus called ms dos6 n't copy floppy burn love windows crash
anderson dseg ti com \( john anderson \) subject gateway 2000 zeos compare organization ti dseg spring creek nntp posting host mcs jha dseg ti com reply anderson dseg ti com lines 22 article uucp cs yorku ca \( chin h lam \) writes think buying new computer mail order , looking gateway 2000 66v zeos 's system better \( terms value , price , , service \) , canada , wonder level service states \? n't know canada , heard people translation work new , like good response service another seriously considering buying one john h anderson texas instruments inc internet anderson dseg ti com po box ms compuserve , plano , tx 214 575 fax 214 575
ab245 cleveland freenet edu \( sam latonia \) subject gateway monitor problem ! help organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 6 nntp posting host slc10 ins cwru edu ever notice 99 problems people run windows ! thanks ms gosh think installed virus called ms dos6 n't copy floppy burn love windows crash
puk ac za \( \) subject bios passwords lines 13 organization pu cho hope 's somebody help us students change ami bios passwords computers set always 'd like know way bypass remove password tried switching bios , avail battery soldered , three machines still would help ca n't remove batteries thanks puk ac za \) money ca n't buy happiness , surely pays illusion
lhdsy1 lahabra chevron com \( james c \) subject diamond products boycot \? summary diamond policies keywords diamond policies organization chevron , la habra , ca lines 40 article 1993apr23 monu6 cc monash edu au ins413j mdw056 cc monash edu au \( markfried fellensiek \) writes 're considering buying system , view using run unix \( linux , bsd , etc \) special software , good chance work diamond cards , special software free , like xfree86 vendors sells diamond x drivers commercial , charge due diamond 's propriety attitude 's hardware 's impossible get free information chips \( specifically dot clocks \) without paying , signing non disclosure agreements think need signing \( e paying \) still violates fsf 's policy publically available code made impossible free software foundation provide x windows compatibility cards , diamond n't want divulge programming true , fixes already bought diamond cards linux , example , utilities put card vesa mode invoking x course , means fine tuning diamond cards , least allow 're stuck use linux x agree mark 's suggestion buying video card specialized free software , avoid diamond already one , may fix help james chevron com shortest distance netcom com two straight line ask linux , freely distributable unix clone 386 486
ab245 cleveland freenet edu \( sam latonia \) subject consumer warning midwest micro \( ohio \) organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 47 nntp posting host slc10 ins cwru edu midwest micro , article \( last \) newsgroups comp dcom modems , comp sys ibm pc hardware , misc consumers wilson schaefer math wisc edu \( bob wilson \) subject consumer warning midwest micro \( ohio \) date thu apr 22 15 12 28 1993 posted almost bad experience midwest micro news program sent one paragraph middle addition facts \( \) modems \( ordered two \) would n't work documented \( b \) tech person clue work , also turned \( c \) one two modems sent clearly used techs thought standard practice \( \) modems made three floppy drives quit working tape drive start running away incompetent one thing , sell used stuff new wo n't even apologize another stay away crooks ! bob wilson shown 97 , press space , quit , 'h' help wilson math wisc edu end file , press return quit bob , walked micro center cleveland area bought new track ball picked one sealed plastic rap get home find good year old used dirty old track ball warranty card software package would never even think installing anything looked like used called micro made pull tag would picked sent one day things get better knowing equipment first try ! gosh think installed virus called ms dos6 n't copy floppy burn love windows crash
sherwood adobe com \( geoffrey sherwood \) subject monitors nanao \? organization adobe systems incorporated x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 46 adrie \( adrie philips nl \) wrote article news iastate edu schauf iastate edu \( brian j schaufenbuel \) writes tube viewsonic 17 use \? support 1600x1280 \? 've looking philips 1762dt uses sony trinitron tube , digital controls , supports , 25mm dot pitch found 1000 original poster , john navitsky , said might use monitor sparcstation lx lx able generate picture 1280 1024 76 hz officially , tried set resolution refresh rate lx came non screen tube obviously could n't handle speed 67 hz , worked perfectly n't know tube viewsonic 17 uses , horizontal bandwidth go pretty high ran mine fast orchid p9000 could drive also , 17 claim able support 1600x1280 , experience since spec sheet front 'll type crt 17 , 0 28 mm dot pitch , 90 deg deflection , rgb short , tint \( tm 52 \) , anti static , anti glare , anti reflection input signal rgb analog 0 p , 75 ohms \( also setting p \) sync h v separate \( ttl \) , composite \( \) , sync green \( \) horizontal freq 30 , vertical freq 50 90hz compatibility pc vga 1600x1280 non interlaced , mac iici controls contrast , brightness , position , size , , p p voltage , color temp , sync select , color tuning , video band 135 mhz max brightness 120 cd m2 white flat field 35mm \( max \) center , \( max \) corner dimensions 16 3 22 64 , weight 42 6 lbs n't know mean n't verify accuracy , typed things hype sheet dynamic right mean use two lenses advanced shadow mask color control claim easy use system adjusts colors closely match printer output near able figure , translates separate controls red , green , blue makes easy match printer output beyond beyond hype , monitor pleasant look sharp , clear , n't nearly bad nec 's reflections geoff sherwood
elaine ee und ac za \( dale \) subject bios passwords organization elec eng , univ natal , durban , africa lines 29 nntp posting host pc ee und ac za students change ami bios passwords computers set always 'd like know way bypass remove password tried switching bios , avail battery soldered , three machines still would help ca n't remove batteries far know , way get around bios password except shorting power supply cmos memory , thereby erasing remove password , also destroy previous bios settings , 'll go set 386 , jumper motherboard provided purpose shorting battery short jumper briefly , interrupts power cmos long enough erase would imagine something like board future , would suggest set password , leave setup way , one else go reset set always unless know password used got bunch new 386 's , reason dale dale elaine ee und ac za technical co dept electronic engineering durban youth radio university natal , durban durban , south africa south africa
ab245 cleveland freenet edu \( sam latonia \) subject dx50 vs dx266 organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 28 nntp posting host slc10 ins cwru edu article \( last \) newsgroups comp sys ibm pc hardware arnolm2 aix rpi edu \( matthew richard arnold \) subject dx50 vs dx266 date wed apr 21 19 55 12 1993 would someone willing explain 486dx 50mhz popular \? would think would fast , faster 486dx 66mhz certian applications plus , 50mhz motherboard would seem better plans upgrading chip future must missing something , since everyone buying dx2 66 many adds n't even mention dx 50 thanks lot , matt end file , press return quit yes realy simple , one makes mother board runs bus 33mhz sam gosh think installed virus called ms dos6 n't copy floppy burn love windows crash
ere umontreal ca \( guy \) subject isa graphic card info source organization universite de montreal lines 38 hi , might look like dull request , following newgroup couple weeks n't help make mind bought new 486 machine long ago disconnected pc world \( running xt 5mhz till last january ! ! \) machine bought came equipped ati vga xl 24 graphic card gives nice picture windows drivers pretty stable problem quite slow would like go faster card \( 400 range \) saw lot comments many products last weeks , n't get overall picture clear enough make choice question could somebody direct source information would help quest would like get information refresh rates various cards provide quality windows drivers standard vga performance \( non windows stuff \) direct magazine article something like \( got zip info , enough \) isa card really satisfied , let know information use , system configuration 486 33mhz isa system \( motherboard \) monitor darius 14 non interlaced multisync \( 1024x768 \) \( reach horizontally \) would also like know standard video drivers allow screen screen positioning writing eprom graphic card case ati card convenient changing graphics mode since monitor intelligent enough record settings information would kind enough provide , guy ere umontreal ca
kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) subject dos 6 0 organization case western reserve university lines 27 nntp posting host b64635 student cwru edu article 1993apr23 ucsu colorado edu koberg spot colorado edu \( allen koberg \) writes stacker , changes config sys autoexec bat meant rebooting twice could update necessary modify config sys real boot partition disk , manually copy c allow stacker boot likewise autoexec bat private note jennifer fakult post may contain one following sarcasm , cycnicism , irony , humor please aware possibility allow confused thrown loop doubt , assume owners account take responsiblity confusion may result inability recognize read risk , jennifer
gabi ap mchp sni de \( oliver \) subject subject 16550 v 16550a \? \? \? organization siemens nixdorf ag lines 16 distribution world reply gabi ap mchp sni de \( \) nntp posting host 139 21 18 129 article 1993apr22 ns1 cc lehigh edu write 's difference 16550 uart 16550a uart \? thanks ! difference 16550 got bugs 16550a used problems even fast serial communications sources say nat semi \( e second sources \) really ok best wishes oliver
athena mit edu \( glenn \) subject gateway monitor problem ! help organization massachusetts institute technology lines 10 distribution usa nntp posting host w20 575 74 mit edu believe monitor problem system micron computers 15 mag 1564 \( monitor gateway \) symptoms 's removing monitor extension cable \? thanks info
athena mit edu \( glenn \) subject gateway 4dx 33v high price \? organization massachusetts institute technology lines 9 nntp posting host w20 575 74 mit edu , maybe gateway system n't cheap system micron computers 486 2 50 , 16 meg ram , 245 maxtor hd , local bus ide 2 meg video card , 15 monitor system shipping came 2200 sold sx 33 chip came bought dx2 50 total price 2300 2400
othello ucdavis edu \( \) subject dx50 vs dx266 organization computing services , uc davis lines 27 article usenet ins cwru edu ab245 cleveland freenet edu \( sam latonia \) writes arnolm2 aix rpi edu \( matthew richard arnold \) subject dx50 vs dx266 date wed apr 21 19 55 12 1993 would someone willing explain 486dx 50mhz popular \? would think would fast , faster 486dx 66mhz certian applications plus , 50mhz motherboard would seem better plans upgrading chip future must missing something , since everyone buying dx2 66 many adds n't even mention dx 50 thanks lot , matt yes realy simple , one makes mother board runs bus 33mhz sam n't quite true depending number local bus slots , whether device integrated mother board , possible run local bus 40 50 mhz 've also spoken people run standard local bus video cards 50 mhz without trouble \( couple people could n't get lb card work speed \) brian ucdavis edu
ampex com \( steve russell \) subject cpu fans nntp posting host rcs organization ampex corporation , redwood city ca lines 58 article 1993apr20 mfltd co uk nmp mfltd co uk writes got 66mhz 486dx2 system , considering getting fan cpu processor running hot touch think fairly good idea \( long ago electronics training read somewhere regions within chip define junctions gates etc slowly diffuse time increases temperature , hence hot chip goes spec sooner \) anyone got cpu fan \? \? yes 1 type \? yes , seen glue , tape , clip , one inch square larger favorite 3 5 inch plastic u fan use top chip open case service remove cpu install fan \? depends mounting cpu fans derive power spare drive power lines \? manufacturer smart anyone trouble cpu fans \? goes got blanket effect n't help chip life anyone evidence cpu fans complete waste money \? longer system life makes good economic sense fans attached \? \( glue \? clips \? melted cheese \? \) yes well , melted cheese roughly much cooler cpu fan opposed without \? lets touch surface rule thumb cooling solid state \( advert 've read claims vs \) info appreciated , attached fans look slick work well i'm bothered potential loss cooling fan goes least power supply fan reach back every days feel fan blowing prefer put stock fan drive brackets front panel blow air across cpu depends lot case board layout , though chip fans fry 's electronics sf bay area 30 00 get stock power supply fans 11 00 steve
netcom com \( alexander \) subject help ! quiet pc \? organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 18 fan power supply , like , loud anyone found solution running pc peace quiet \? short buying notebook pc , n't know oh yeah , hear power supply called silencer supposed quiet anyone experience \? quoted price 225 \( ! \) silencer 've even considered stuffing pc case one acoustic printer , would n't elegant solution also , i'm guessing would also cut ventilation ideas \? thanks advance suggestions ! please e mail whatever post alexander netcom com \( 510 \) 848 \( voice \)
pchang ic sunysb edu \( pong chang \) subject ad lib wav driver \? \? organization state university new york stony brook lines 18 distribution world nntp posting host ic sunysb edu currently ad lib card , play mid files windows cannot play startup wav files called microsoft help cannot call ad lib since went belly anyone know special drivers need \? , \? thanx ad ! ! \) c ommon pchang ic sunysb edu ense state university new york stony brook e ngineer
cunixa cc columbia edu \( james r \) subject notebooks summary zeos , nntp posting host cunixa cc columbia edu reply cunixa cc columbia edu \( james r \) organization columbia university lines 16 posted n't receive responses 've looking good notebook 1700 two favorites zeos sl micro something \( one apple powerbook style trackball 486slc \) suggestions others \? 'd love hear someone one two mentioned , thanks advance , jrl james r computer science i486 phone \( 212 \) 853 columbia e internet cunixa cc columbia edu
ucs orst edu \( charley jenkins \) subject isa ca n't use 16 megs ram \? \? \? \? keywords isa article gaia distribution world organization university computing services osu lines 8 nntp posting host ucs orst edu k , computer literate , cannot done ram 16 megs isa machine please e mail ! thanks advance ! charley
ers data skanska se \( erik \) subject maxtor jumper settings \? organization skanska data lines 9 distribution world nntp posting host pepsi data skanska se need know jumper settings master slave operation maxtor \( 80mb ide \) hard disk thanks advance erik ers skanska se tel 46 8 skanska data , 182 25 , sweden fax 46 8
al col hp com \( al devilbiss \) subject cpu fans organization hp colorado springs division lines 28 nntp posting host col hp com ampex com \( steve russell \) writes deletions attached fans look slick work well i'm bothered potential loss cooling fan goes least power supply fan reach back every days feel fan blowing yes , valid concern imho directly attached fan units 've seen , looks like fan stop chip cooling would good bit worse heat sink words , fan stops unit turns chip might get hot enough suffer permanent damage , stop working temporarily prefer put stock fan drive brackets front panel blow air across cpu depends lot case board layout , though zeos 486dx2 66 \( tower case \) passive heat sink cpu , 's located front fan , sucks air case , blows right heat sink fan stops heat sink still cooled air flow see dramatic temperature rise essentially arrangement 're talking good idea imho chip fans fry 's electronics sf bay area 30 00 get stock power supply fans 11 00 steve al devilbiss al col hp com
ebu ericsson se \( paul tai \) subject bios replacement reply ebu ericsson se organization ericsson business communications , inc lines 16 nntp posting host ebu ericsson se x disclaimer article posted user ericsson opinions expressed strictly user necessarily ericsson pc 486 33dx \( isa \) ami bios opti chipset thinking replacing ami bios chip \( dated 6 91 \) date one \( reason , messing around \) questions 1 take old one plug new \? 2 anything else take care \? precautions take \? 3 get new bios chip , compusa , mailorder \? \( live orange county california \) 4 date version \? 5 important much would \? thank help paul
minyos xx rmit oz au \( ming chew \) subject help com port problems mouse organization royal melbourne institute technology lines 12 nntp posting host minyos xx rmit oz au hello , want know com port create problems mouse \? \? mouse gets stuck screen press button able move around shareware utility program diagnose com ports \? thanks ming
ampex com \( eric hung \) subject adding second ide drive nntp posting host organization ampex corporation , redwood city ca lines 20 article ulowell ulowell edu cs ulowell edu \( michael cook \) writes bought western digital caviar 340mb ide drive want add system already ide drive controller says supports 2 hard drives , plug cables , bios setup , try start system , get invalid drive error message system boots , cannot access new hard drive new drive works fine drive c 's alone , able get drives working time help appreciated thanks , mike need run fdisk eric
ken jazz concert net \( ken \) subject help floppy problem organization mcnc center communications concert network lines 10 3 5 floppy drive stopped recognizing low density \( 720k \) floppies controller drive works fine another system told could dma chip system 386dx 25 using chips technology chip set i'm open suggestions please send replies ken jazz concert net thanks advance ! ! !
k4bnc cbnewsh cb att com \( john siegel \) subject ca n't set com4 answer organization distribution usa keywords ati conflict lines 14 gateway service confirmed suspicion , echoed couple people responded original request help ati vlb video board uses addresses com 4 could suggest work around returning df io card supplied com 4 \( even though could possibly work \) credit bus mouse free com port need bad original salesman suggested either df io card bus mouse would solve need port n't know enough hardware otherwise must say 486dx2 66 system worked well problems hardware software john siegel k4bnc cbnewsh att com
rsrodger wam umd edu \( yamanari \) subject diamond products boycot \? nntp posting host rac2 wam umd edu organization university maryland , college park lines 37 article austin ibm com lance hartmann austin ibm com ibmpa awdpa ibm com writes article 1993apr23 monu6 cc monash edu au ins413j mdw056 cc monash edu au \( markfried fellensiek \) writes come think , though , hear see lot complaints ati boards , though recent word looks like build 59 code looks much better build 59 still number problems fonts , instance , crystal fonts enabled problems color others n't use drivers mode 1024x768x256 , bugs modes ca n't say anyone accelerated video board drivers windows \( os 2 \? \) modes function properly \? anyone \? anyone \? honest , , found one bug diamond viper drivers , seems , microsoft word , select format border , click shading take look patterns 5 pattern swapped 90 , whole list completely reversed looks right , take another machine \( e , gup ss24x machine \) print iy shows badly ! keep mind use mainly mode , ca n't speak others , otherwise drivers seem pretty solid 's big , noisy iq 8 \? operation rescue
dieter toppoint de \( dieter \) subject vl bus hdd fdd controller ide hdd fdd controller \? organization private waffle site lines 24 hpsgm2 sgp hp com taybh hpsgm2 sgp hp com \( beng hang tay \) writes hi , buying quantum lps240at 245 mb hardisk deciding hdd fdd controller 32 bit vl bus hdd fdd controller faster 16 bit ide hdd fdd controller card \? hear vl bus controller slower ide controller \? one true \? vl ide adapter much faster normal ide , depends drive use board use using vl ide tested coretest 2 000 kb using cheap seagate nearly 4000 kb using wd caviar 2340 , figure jumper setting controller get reliable , fastest setting gets 4600 kb coretest work reliable shadow adapter bios get fast speed used vl ide cache controller yet , might speed twice dieter dieter dieter toppoint de 32 , 2300 17 , germany master tel 49 431 \( voice \) fax box 49 431 zyxel v fast waffle fax compuserve , 654
mulvey blurt oswego edu \( allen mulvey , suny , oswego , ny \) subject comtrade organization suny college oswego , oswego , ny lines 22 article 22apr93 enh nist gov , thacker enh nist gov writes anyone experience buying computers comtrade \? asked tc , got one reply describing problems returning defective hard drive expect problems comtrade \? thanks , thacker miami fl purchased one personal computer three business problems time called tech support minor question video driver problem getting four machines seem high quality well made 486dx50 eisa machine network file server running 24 hrs per day since last summer problems hope helpful allen mulvey mulvey blurt oswego edu
com \( tim king \) subject gateway monitor problem ! help distribution usa organization u west group , inc lines 30 x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 joshua smith \( ravel udel edu \) wrote , someone else gateway monitor problem , anyone help , please , would much thanks advance ok , local bus 486 66 machine , crystal scan monitor 1 meg memory ati ultra pro , w mach32 driver \( newest release \) problem windows use 1024 mode get shadows sides screens , blurry type corners types screen focus 've gotten replacement video cards , replacement monitor none helped though could someone help problem 1 meg card crystal scan 15 inch also see faint shadows left side screen 1024 x 768 mode , enough really bother characters screen clear turn crystal fonts , become blurry friend 2 meg video card shadows , says crystal fonts , well , crystal clear using build 59 mach32 drivers neither us monitor extension cable tried driver found difference tim king , com us west group inc bellevue , washington
mts wam umd edu \( \) subject ibm link imagewriter nntp posting host rac2 wam umd edu organization university maryland , college park lines 29 article 24 uupcb ozonehole com chris crayton ozonehole com \( chris crayton \) writes 04 20 93 21 25 , larry henson unmitigated gall say lh hello , trying hook apple imagewriter ibm clone lh seem problem configuring lpt port accept lh adjust baud , parity , etc fit system \? tried mode , lh work anyone help , post e mail thanx lpt ports n't recognize baud , parity , etc settings might connect serial printer parallel port try attach serial port printer serial port pc use mode command set com port settings try c mode com1 , 9600 , n , 8 , 1 set port parameters use mode command redirect printer port lpt1 like c mode lpt1 com1 work good luck ! first need connect null modem cable atleast thats 've heard dave
michael jester gun de \( michael gerhards \) distribution world subject null modem cable \? x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 organization private coherent system lines 76 kevin kimmell computer science german undergrad \( ke kimmell vax cns muskingum edu \) wrote interrested simple concept null modem cable \( actually idea , n't count last statement \) i'm asking pins use \( 's specifications \? \) want solder one instead buying one n't even know port used db 25 db 9 pin pin name eia ccitt dte dce description 1 fg aa 101 frame ground 2 3 td ba 103 transmitted data 3 2 rd bb 104 received data 4 7 rts ca 105 request send 5 8 cts cb 106 clear send 6 6 dsr cc 107 data set ready 7 5 sg ab 102 signal ground 8 1 dcd cf 109 data carrier detect 9 positive dc test voltage 10 negative dc test voltage 11 qm equalizer mode 12 scf 122 secondary data carrier detect 13 121 secondary clear send 14 std 118 secondary transmitted data 15 tc db 114 transmitter clock 16 119 secondary receiver clock 17 rc dd 115 receiver clock 18 dcr divided clock receiver 19 sca 120 secondary request send 20 4 dtr cd 108 2 data terminal ready 21 sq cg 110 signal quality 22 9 ri ce 125 ring indicator 23 ch 111 data rate selector 24 ci 112 data rate selector 25 tc da 113 transmitted clock another posting c p h sorry , n't know author connecting devices normally , 7 wire connection used connect gnd1 modem connected , add lines following ri , dcd software wants , connect beware ! pcs use pin 2 pin 3 txd , modems normally pins reversed ! allows easily connect , pin 2 etc connect two pcs , cross txd hardware handshaking needed , called null modem connection used connect gnd1 additionally , connect \( software needs \) wo n't need long wires ! null modem connection used establish xon xoff transmission two pcs \( see software section details \) remember names dtr , dsr , cts rts refer lines seen pc means data set dtr rts incoming signals dsr cts outputs ! end michael michael jester gun de michael gerhards preussenstrasse 59 germany 4040 neuss voice 49 2131 82238
hartzman kilroy jpl nasa gov \( les hartzman \) subject low emission monitors besides nec \? \? organization jet propulsion laboratory , pasadena , ca lines 14 distribution na nntp posting host kilroy jpl nasa gov anyone else make low radiation emission monitors besides nec \? compare necs \( quality emission wise \) \? tia , les les hartzman hartzman kilroy jpl nasa gov jet propulsion laboratory 238 528 \( 818 \) 354 4800 oak grove dr , pasadena , ca 91109
hartzman kilroy jpl nasa gov \( les hartzman \) subject plus hardcard owners help ! organization jet propulsion laboratory , pasadena , ca lines 21 distribution na nntp posting host kilroy jpl nasa gov article usenet ins cwru edu po cwru edu \( eric v wong \) writes hi , problem , 've lost software drivers setup programs hardcard someone email files , let know plus development \( bought quantum \? \) bbs phone \? hardcard ii quantum bbs number 408 894 3214 good luck les les hartzman hartzman kilroy jpl nasa gov jet propulsion laboratory 238 528 \( 818 \) 354 4800 oak grove dr , pasadena , ca 91109
lioness maple circa ufl edu subject joystick organization center instructional research computing activities lines 10 reply lioness ufcc ufl edu nntp posting host maple circa ufl edu disk joystick code kind enough mail puked specifically , looking c code read position joystick without using int15h , e accessing port directly need c memory model considerations need able read x position also brian
purdue edu \( tom fisher \) subject cpu fans organization center environmental regulatory information systems , purdue university lines 14 attached fans look slick work well i'm bothered potential loss cooling fan goes least power supply fan reach back every days feel fan blowing yes , valid concern imho directly attached fan units 've seen , looks like fan stop chip cooling would good bit worse heat sink words , fan stops unit turns chip might get hot enough suffer permanent damage , stop working temporarily suggestion slave \( hook series \) small pilot light fan circuit , light goes , know fan working tom
tp923021 fir canberra edu au \( ben elliston \) subject cpu temperature vs cpu activity \? lines 39 organization compact solutions , canberra act australia may naive question basis claim cpu get hotter computationally intensive job running \? friend claims little difference temperature idle cpu cpu running computationally intensive job 've seen , cpus never actually idle continue service interrupts , etc , etc clock always running n mhz matter 's suppose depending instruction , cpu may use circuitry transistors instructions , consider additional heat generated handful additional , tiny resistors spread heat dissipation cpu 's packaging , change temperature immediate environment \( ie surface package \) negligible cheers , ben ben j elliston bachelor engineering \( computer engineering \) university canberra \( \) ooo \( \) ooo email compsol fir canberra edu au v also cbr cpsg com au uucp ! uunet ! munnari ! sserve adfa oz au ! compsol ! root fidonet 3 620 262 origin compact solutions canberra act australia \( 3 620 262 \)
tp923021 fir canberra edu au \( ben elliston \) subject disk caching lines 25 organization compact solutions , canberra act australia anybody every come across problem whereby hard disk locks \( ie crashes system \) attempting load disk caching \? think logic board may , drive works perfectly without disk cache tried various versions smartdrive , avail advice would much appreciated need cached drive , need extra space second drive much ! \) thanks cheers , ben ben j elliston bachelor engineering \( computer engineering \) university canberra \( \) ooo \( \) ooo email compsol fir canberra edu au v also cbr cpsg com au uucp ! uunet ! munnari ! sserve adfa oz au ! compsol ! root fidonet 3 620 262 origin compact solutions canberra act australia \( 3 620 262 \)
zander eclipse sheridanc ca \( mark zander \) subject read harddrive nntp posting host eclipse sheridanc ca organization college , ontario , canada lines 13 computers college files would like make read used dos command people , carry around program pockets , still able erase important files software packages would make entire drive read \? example , partition drive two partitions first drive contain important files read second drive could read write enquiries help would appreciated thanx mark zander sheridanc ca
freenet carleton ca \( micah lax \) subject help bios upgrade compaq 286 deskpro reply freenet carleton ca \( micah lax \) organization national capital freenet lines 27 howdy , recently upgraded original bios compaq deskpro 286 12 phoenix replacement bios , order support ide hard drive , high density 3 5 floppy assumed would plug play procedure , encountered problem phoenix compaq unwilling admit responsibilty , wondering anyone else seen everything except 3 5 floppy , read , write diskettes write attempt merely corrupts tried everything think takers \? micah h lax freenet carleton ca micah bnr ca internet
tp923021 fir canberra edu au \( ben elliston \) subject floppy problems lines 25 organization compact solutions , canberra act australia floppy drive developed general failure errors \( 's teac 1 44mb 3 5 drive \) took machine noticed dusty used high powered air blow dust 's quite clean however , n't help problem 've also identified machine boots \( drive seeks boot disk \) , head movement process approximately half length original time mean period drive light comes heads move retracted position track containing boot sector anything try save drive \? 'd prefer shell 100 new one help thanks ! cheers , ben ben j elliston bachelor engineering \( computer engineering \) university canberra \( \) ooo \( \) ooo email compsol fir canberra edu au v also cbr cpsg com au uucp ! uunet ! munnari ! sserve adfa oz au ! compsol ! root fidonet 3 620 262 origin compact solutions canberra act australia \( 3 620 262 \)
lasse mits mdata fi \( lasse \) subject diamond stealth pro 2 mb vram organization oy , helsinki , finland nntp posting host mits mdata fi lines 17 want info diamond stealth pro 2 mb vram graphics modes support hi color modes included vesa bios \( use dos programs \) experiences yet \( bugs advantages \) fast windows dos price thanks \) ' ` ` ' lasse mits mdata fi ` '
athena mit edu \( glenn \) subject gateway monitor problem ! help organization massachusetts institute technology lines 9 nntp posting host w20 575 129 mit edu i'm 's true monitor problem seems occur whenever 15 mag monitor put 1024x768 mode i'm running os 2 1024 symptoms appear seem like video card problem cirrus logic 5426 chip ati gup seem cause problems two different cards glenn
organization arizona state university james cassidy asuacad bitnet subject need specs western digital ide hd lines 9 friend mine needs spec used hard drive got western digital , ide , 340 meg 1010 cylinders 12 heads believe model number , ca n't sure 12 ms , 3 5 model info would appreciated , either somone knows , maybe western phone number thanks
ka hr att com \( kenneth \) subject 20 21 grayscale displays summary monitors listed april 1991 computer shopper originator news cbnewsf cb att com nntp posting host socrates hr att com organization lines 190 list large \( least 18 inches diagonal \) monochrome monitors computer shopper lists pc compatible 've omitted radius radius states longer support pc notice nanao one supports 31 horizontal frequency , frequency normally used vga cards boot guess monitors come graphics cards 've left voice mail nanao asking send literature , report back net 've studied prices given appear list prices little relationship reality kenneth cut cornerstone technology 1990 dr san jose , ca 95131 408 435 8900 dualpage 120 diagonal 19 inches max resolution 1600x1280 frequencies horizontal , 76hz vertical dimensions inches price 1495 compatible pc ps 2 dualpage 150 diagonal 19 inches max resolution frequencies horizontal , vertical dimensions inches price compatible pc ps 2 electronics \( u \) , inc 37 brook ave , nj 201 368 dm diagonal 20 inches max resolution 1280x1024 frequencies 48 horizontal , 59 80hz vertical price 995 compatible pc image systems corp k tel hopkins , nm 800 462 612 935 diagonal 21 inches max resolution frequencies 48 horizontal , 60 80hz vertical dimensions inches price 1995 compatible pc ps 2 mac diagonal 21 inches max resolution 1280x1024 frequencies 15 horizontal , 55 90hz vertical price compatible pc ps 2 mac diagonal 21 inches max resolution frequencies 48 horizontal , 60 80hz vertical dimensions inches price 2500 compatible pc ps 2 mac diagonal 24 inches max resolution frequencies 48 horizontal , 60 80hz vertical dimensions inches price 2600 compatible pc ps 2 mac nanao usa corp ave , ca 310 325 6500 diagonal 21 inches max resolution frequencies 31 5 56 horizontal , 55 90hz vertical dimensions inches price 1989 compatible pc ps 2 mac ran ger technologies , inc address unknown model diagonal 19 inches max resolution 1280x1024 frequencies horizontal , 60hz vertical dimensions inches price 950 compatible pc corp america p box atlanta , ga 404 449 120 diagonal 20 inches max resolution 1600x1280 frequencies horizontal , 72hz vertical price 1995 compatible pc iie diagonal 20 inches max resolution 1280x1024 frequencies horizontal , 70hz vertical price 1549 \( advertized 999 pg 390 april shopper \) compatible pc samsung electronics america , inc address unknown could try samsung information systems , inc n 1st st san joes , ca 408 434 5400 2 \( \) diagonal 20 inches max resolution 1280x1024 frequencies horizontal , vertical dimensions inches price 899 compatible pc mac sigma designs , inc , ca 510 770 0100 l view diagonal 19 inches max resolution frequencies horizontal , 60 vertical dimensions inches price 1099 compatible pc ps 2 mac l view diagonal 19 inches max resolution frequencies horizontal , 60 vertical dimensions inches price 1299 compatible pc ps 2 mac 120 diagonal 19 inches max resolution frequencies 94 horizontal , 76 vertical dimensions inches price 1299 \( min \) compatible pc diagonal 21 inches max resolution 1152x870 frequencies 66 horizontal , vertical dimensions inches price 1395 \( min \) compatible pc ps 2 mac
ballou ai mit edu \( kenneth robert ballou \) subject cpu temperature vs cpu activity \? organization oberon software , inc lines 28 nntp posting host ai mit edu article 1993apr21 709 nessie mcc ac uk victor comms ee man ac uk \( victor buttigieg \) writes lino montuno \( montuno physics su oz au \) wrote may naive question basis claim cpu get hotter computationally intensive job running \? totally agree friend , since cpu apparently idle still fact away millions instructions per second \( checking keyboard input instance \) exception cpu 's used laptops , cpu enter idle state preserving current status absolutely nothing case needs hardware interrupt get going actually , family halt instruction causes cpu cease processing instructions cpu resumes processing either reset receiving external \( hardware \) interrupt different power management facilities victor mentions course , whether operating system 's idle loop uses halt instruction another matter entirely kenneth r ballou voice \( 617 \) 494 oberon software , inc fax \( 617 \) 494 one memorial drive , cambridge , 02142 internet ballou oberon com views opinions expressed necessarily reflect employer
guyd austin ibm com \( guy dawson \) subject scsi ide bottom line originator guyd pal500 austin ibm com organization ibm austin lines 73 article 1993apr22 msc cornell edu , randy ellingson writes would choose , \? ! ide box ide scsi unix box ide box 'cos hard disk , scsi unix box 'cos scsi hard disk , cd rom tape bought scsi makes adding many devices easier price one irq dma three different types device connected faster drives also available scsi dec realy average seek time e finds data 25 faster 12ms toshiba drive like lots people , 'd really like increase data transfer rate hard drive right 15ms 210mb ide drive \( seagate \) , standard ide controller card isa 486 50 n't think scsi increase data transfer much isa bus \( i'm currently thinking adding another hd , 300mb 500mb range i'm thinking hard buying scsi drive \( scsi future benefit \) believe i'm getting something like 890kb sec transfer right \( according nu \) 890kb pretty good would number compare bought state art scsi card isa pc , state art scsi hard drive \( best system could hope \) \? many state art scsi disks use mechanicals many state art ide drives interface differ look drive example ! obviously money factors choice well , would want use isa system \? much would cost \? use adaptec 1542b unix box name ide cards along lines , kind transfer rate could see ide hd 's buy top line ide caching controller 200mb , 15ms hd \? much would cost \? caching controller ! \? give smartdrive \( dos \) \? extra lower memory ! 's properly configured main memory cache produce better results caching controller ! unix reads reads data main memory cache 8 5mb ! 's faster standards isa bus ever sustain ! thanks comments randy guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns co uk tel hoskyns uk 71 251 2128 guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa 512 838 3377
guyd austin ibm com \( guy dawson \) subject dx50 vs dx266 originator guyd pal500 austin ibm com organization ibm austin lines 54 article usenet ins cwru edu , ab245 cleveland freenet edu \( sam latonia \) writes article \( last \) newsgroups comp sys ibm pc hardware arnolm2 aix rpi edu \( matthew richard arnold \) subject dx50 vs dx266 date wed apr 21 19 55 12 1993 would someone willing explain 486dx 50mhz popular \? would think would fast , faster 486dx 66mhz certian applications plus , 50mhz motherboard would seem better plans upgrading chip future must missing something , since everyone buying dx2 66 many adds n't even mention dx 50 thanks lot , matt end file , press return quit yes realy simple , one makes mother board runs bus 33mhz sam bus \? \? \? think several reasons 50mhz motherboards harder get right 50mhz need fast l2 cache 12 good idea 50mhz needs slowed make compliant vesa bus 66mhz dx2 chips faster lot things good , fast l2 cache dx2 66 going faster dx50 \? dx50 course ! gosh think installed virus called ms dos6 n't copy floppy burn love windows crash guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns co uk tel hoskyns uk 71 251 2128 guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa 512 838 3377
guyd austin ibm com \( guy dawson \) subject isa bus scsi ide \? \? ! ! originator guyd pal500 austin ibm com organization ibm austin lines 29 article 1993apr19 msc cornell edu , randy msc cornell edu \( randy ellingson \) writes questions deleted actually pas 16 , could \( waste guess would \) hook scsi hd 's scsi port yields optimum sec actually , borrowed 12ms fujitsu hd hooked \( trantor hd drivers pas 16 scsi port \) scsi port scsi 2 port \? could tell \? fujitsu 2623a scsi 2 \? scsi hd 's scsi 2 \? one know pas16 scsi port \? counted pins board displayed ad got 40 ! happened 50 \? junk whole bunch grounds \? thanks comments randy guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns co uk tel hoskyns uk 71 251 2128 guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa 512 838 3377
aron ced berkeley edu \( aron bonar \) subject courier vs sportster organization university california , berkeley lines 23 nntp posting host ced berkeley edu article 1993apr20 dcss mcmaster ca , cs3sd3ae maccs mcmaster ca \( holly ks \) writes perhaps silly question goes difference us robotics courier v32bis external sportster 14400 external \? see price sportster dramatically dropped 200 price courier remains 400 anyone knowledge modems anyone owns courier \? 'd really appreciate comments decide one buy thanks advance thanks replies us robotics info wanted kevin cis mcmaster ca 1 courier looks lot cooler \) 2 courier upgradable \( give usr money tho' \) 3 sportster able modified 16 8 dual standard \( want void totally piss usr \)
malouf leland stanford edu \( rob malouf \) subject monitor organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa lines 9 anyone manual 14 ni monitor \? need specs thanks rob malouf malouf csli stanford edu rob malouf malouf csli stanford edu
guyd austin ibm com \( guy dawson \) subject 386 ram work 486 \? originator guyd pal500 austin ibm com organization ibm austin lines 34 article 1993apr23 monu6 cc monash edu au , giaec cc monash edu au \( brett paterson \) writes wanting upgrade 386sx 25 , 486dx 33 , looking cheap quote someone offering 486dx 33 motherboard , ram \( probably sell old board somewhere \) , 4 meg ram 386 , consists 4 x 9 module simms , running 70 nanoseconds would encounter problems pointed areas , throwing one computer \? problem remember get number wait states correct ! comments gratefully \( e mail preferred \) appreciated brett paterson email giaec cc monash edu au , victoria , australia guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns co uk tel hoskyns uk 71 251 2128 guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa 512 838 3377
guyd austin ibm com \( guy dawson \) subject diamond products boycot \? originator guyd pal500 austin ibm com organization ibm austin lines 39 article 1993apr23 sol ctr columbia edu , penev rockefeller edu \( penio penev \) writes fri , 23 apr 1993 07 01 17 gmt markfried fellensiek \( ins413j mdw056 cc monash edu au \) wrote 're considering buying system , view using run unix \( linux , bsd , etc \) special software , good chance work diamond cards due diamond 's propriety attitude 's hardware 's impossible get free information chips \( specifically dot clocks \) without paying , signing non disclosure agreements made impossible free software foundation provide x windows compatibility cards , diamond n't want divulge programming n't think two main free x systems \( xfree86 \) part fsf considering , postings diamond 's bad attitute customers , ordered vlb 2m card days anyone know e mail address diamond penio could forward purchase information \? penio penev x7423 \( 212 \) 327 7423 \( w \) internet penev venezia rockefeller edu disclaimer oppinions mine guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns co uk tel hoskyns uk 71 251 2128 guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa 512 838 3377
guyd austin ibm com \( guy dawson \) subject cached originator guyd pal500 austin ibm com organization ibm austin lines 37 article 1993apr23 spartan ac brocku ca , tmc spartan ac brocku ca \( tim ciceran \) writes reading many postings concerning hard drives i'm still unclear one thing new cached hard drives cache drive separate , like controller something \? thanks anyone clear two scsi hard drives , several reasons drive read requested data disk scsi bus may busy data needs stored bus free data transmitted drive receives data written , data come bus faster drive write disk needs stored somewhere disk writing situations memory used buffer cache ! may drive read caching well tmc \( tmc spartan ac brocku ca \) guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns co uk tel hoskyns uk 71 251 2128 guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa 512 838 3377
mvs oac ucla edu \( john \) subject hp laserjet fax opinions needed nntp posting host mvs oac ucla edu lines 5 anyone tried hp laserjet fax receives faxes prints hp iii also , word processor , print straight fax anyone problems \? fonts working \?
ballou ai mit edu \( kenneth robert ballou \) subject soundblaster irq port settings organization oberon software , inc lines 55 distribution world nntp posting host ai mit edu article pdb059 kilimanjaro jpl nasa gov pdb059 ipl jpl nasa gov \( paul bartholomew \) writes article shaman wv tek com , andrew frip wv tek com \( andrew klossner \) wrote lpt1 , com1 , disk controller call devices devices requires exclusive interrupt ownership , eg disk controller \( i6 \) keyboard \( i1 \) also devices require exclusive ownership , ie share interrupt another device , eg lpt1 standard isa bus , one almost non laptop pcs use , two separate interface cards cannot share interrupt due screwup bus design example , soundblaster wants drive interrupt number 7 , must hold certain bus wire 0 1 times , depending whether wants interrupt precludes letting another card assert interrupt number 7 two devices isa bus pc share interrupt , 's 're implemented single card interesting would care explain , soundblaster pro card printer card sharing irq 7 successfully \? assure set irq 7 problem computer dtk 286 12 ibm clone simple first , andrew correct , although see might confusion indeed possible two cards configured use interrupt share interrupt sense possible cards active time example time , short free interrupts tape controller \( floppy tape \) needed one irq7 \( 's old tape drive \) solution use irq3 \( also used com2 , modem \) reasoned would never using modem tape simultaneously kermit runs , installs interrupt handler irq3 uses serial port tape drive generate interrupt , kermit would clue tape controller \( since tape controller would serviced , would likely hang \) likewise , tape backup software runs , installs interrupt handler irq3 handler wo n't anything serial port dos , printing interrupt driven instead , bios polls status parallel port determine another byte may sent 's sound card lpt1 configured use irq7 try nt see far 'll get \) kenneth r ballou voice \( 617 \) 494 oberon software , inc fax \( 617 \) 494 one memorial drive , cambridge , 02142 internet ballou oberon com views opinions expressed necessarily reflect employer
dirr trenton edu \( albert dirr \) subject need specs western digital ide hd organization trenton state college lines 8 nntp posting host cs utexas edu 800 number western digital 1 800 832 albert dirr internet address dirr trenton edu student bitnet address dirr e major phone
acs2 bu edu subject epson action printer 100 , new ! sale distribution usa organization boston university , boston , , usa lines 23 originator acs2 bu edu two un opened , new epson action printers sale list price compusa 169 , i'm asking 100 shipping friend got printers promotional event one compusa stores near area n't need printers , 're selling specs printer 9 pin dot matrix printer 240 cps draft , 40 cps 50 sheet paper tray \( single sheets ! \) prints letterhead small footprint \( used either flat upright ! \) quiet operation support optional tractor feeder comes full \( 2 year \) manufacturer 's warranty interested reply acs bu edu trades welcome ! ! ! nguyen
swh cup hp com \( steve \) subject quantum hard disk phantom seeks organization hewlett packard , cupertino lines 25 quantum hard disk phantom seeks purchased installed quantum 3 5 hard drive , model , concern behavior although disk drive seems behave properly respect file , performs call phantom seeks pc absolutely idle , hear activity drive every 30 40 seconds , lasting 1 2 seconds activity seems initiated strictly within drive since disk led never comes disk led attached disk controller card , drive hard disk , seagate st3283a , kind behavior anyone comment strange phenomenon \? steve swh cup hp com 11 \( 408 \) 447
infonode ingr com \( \) subject modem keywords modem organization intergraph corporation , huntsville , al distribution comp lines 16 486 33 ibm clone two serial ports \( com1 , com2 \) mouse port serial ports directly sitting mother board tried install 2400 hayes internal modem , doesnt work dial number system locks hear click ring system hangs modem 2 pin dip switch select appropriate port change settings dip switch , system starts working bought 2400 baud hayes external modem checked system works fine serial ports internal modem checked another machine works fine , work machine anyone please help find problem thanks infonode ingr com
ucsu colorado edu \( \) subject scsi vs ide nntp posting host ucsu colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 17 article iisakkil beta hut fi iisakkil beta hut fi \( mika iisakkila \) writes randy msc cornell edu writes scsi cards dos systems require separate device driver loaded memory scsi device hooked \? 've seen also board bios enables use 2 hard drives directly dos \( 2 drives dos limitation problem ide standards matter \) software drivers often allow better performance , though use want use devices besides hard disks 2 disks always 2000 , among others requires drivers 7 scsi hard drives dos 2 drive maximum , already 3 done hardware , 's software drivers
bitzm columbia dsu edu \( michael bitz \) subject help ! sc 431 interlaced non \? organization dakota state university lines 12 hello colleague monitor manual cover , says sc 431 sc 428 model numbers manual specify interlaced non interlaced , anyone know \? thanks mike bitz internet bitzm columbia dsu edu research development bitzm dsuvax dsu edu dakota state university bitnet s93020 sdnet bitnet
fc hp com \( john schmidt \) subject quantum hard disk phantom seeks nntp posting host fc hp com organization hewlett packard fort collins site x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 2 lines 3 normal behavior drives \( many models \) drive recalibration adjusting temperature changes leave machine frequency goes way
morgan bc edu \( morgan \) subject writing emm driver organization institute space research , boston college lines 9 nntp posting host bc edu i'm writing driver needs remap ports means virtual mode unfortunately virtual mode means wo n't get along expanded memory managers , need make emm driver anyone emm code point emm code source \? thanks , morgan morgan bc edu
sinn carson u washington edu \( philip sinn \) subject et4000 w32 chip graphics accelerator summary sec winmark 3 11 800x600 256 colours keywords winmark , accelerator , chip , hint article shelley distribution world organization university washington , seattle lines 43 nntp posting host carson u washington edu got et4000 w32 card made yesterday ran winmark test card vl bus card display 16 7 million colours 640x480 mode 1mb dram comes et4000 w32 window drivers normal et4000 drivers et4000 w32 drivers handles , 640x480 , 800x600 , 256 colours also , 640x480 800x600 , supports hicolor , 32k 64k colours winmark result running 16mb 486dx33 eisa vl bus system using hint chipsets winmark 3 11 zd lab using et4000 w32 drivers 640x480 256 10 63 sec 32k 7 34 64k 7 30 800x600 256 10 07 32k 6 38 64k 6 35 256 8 17 using et4000 drivers 640x480 16m 1 78 800x600 4 01 16 4 22 result , et4000 w32 drivers specialized use hardware feature et4000 w32 chip whereas et4000 drivers normal driver et4000 based graphics card price graphics card got 185 local dealer may less mail order os 2 2 0 drivers comes supports 256 colors resolution results , double performance based card 256 colours mode philip sinn sinn carson u washington edu university washington opinions
magnus acs ohio state edu \( edward k jen \) subject dx50 vs dx266 nntp posting host photon magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 35 article austin ibm com lance hartmann austin ibm com \( lance har \) writes article rpi edu arnolm2 aix rpi edu \( matthew richard arnold \) writ es would someone willing explain 486dx 50mhz popular \? would think would fast , faster 486dx 66mhz certian applications plus , 50mhz motherboard would seem better plans upgrading chip future must missing something , since everyone buying dx2 66 many adds n't even mention dx 50 one things going dx2 66 \( 50 \) 's clock speed complies vesa local bus spec lance hartmann \( lance hartmann austin ibm com ibmpa awdpa ibm com \) couple problems 486dx 50 1 \) system manufacturers major problems solving electromagnetic interference problems 486dx 50 systems getting fcc b \( home use \) certification required additional shielding system 2 \) heat lot people seem installing heat sinks cooling fans 486dx2 66 chips would guess 486dx 50 ran temperatures inside case even hotter heat enemy system reliability ed opinions sole property named person edward k jen magnus acs ohio state edu academic computing services ohio state university
joe advtech uswest com \( joe thielen \) subject consumer warning midwest micro \( ohio \) organization u west advanced technologies lines 26 nntp posting host advtech uswest com article usenet ins cwru edu ab245 cleveland freenet edu \( sam latonia \) writes must say customer midwest micro 4 years , well taken care purchase many friends bought modem \( \) experience setting modems , problems 6 know fact time valuable spend modem went wrong say must tell 12 yes say 12 ppi modems past trying use bbs junk replace 3 times , ther point said forget wanted money back ppi 's teck even said n't even repair strip parts good junk thr rest modem think fault midwest 's sam gosh think installed virus called ms dos6 n't copy floppy burn love windows crash ever happened idea customer always right \? joe p consider micro 's technique name product misleading , especially originally manufactured intent mind
glen tegra com \( glen \) subject monitors nanao \? organization tegra , inc billerica , lines 23 article c5uw1t 3hi eskimo com johnn eskimo com \( john navitsky \) writes hello , 've following discussions 17 monitors comp sys ibm pc hardware noted nanao seems get good reviews i'm interested getting information nanao 's products well others may fit bill may computer shopper magazine nanao f550i nanao t560i tube manufacturer mitsubishi sony trinitron active screen size \( \) 15 5 16 25 maximum resolution 1280x1024 1280x1024 video bandwidth \( mhz \) 80 120 min max scan rate \( khz \) 55 90 55 90 min max horiz scan rate \( khz \) 30 65 30 80 dot pitch \( mm \) 0 28 0 26 list price 1749 street price 1059 brightness , contrast , h v positioning , h v size , h v convergence , color \( front panel digital \) also front panel degaussing control
glen tegra com \( glen \) subject monitors nanao \? organization tegra , inc billerica , lines 14 article news iastate edu schauf iastate edu \( brian j schaufenbuel \) writes tube viewsonic 17 use \? support 1600x1280 \? 've looking philips 1762dt uses sony trinitron tube , digital controls , supports , 25mm dot pitch found 1000 mean viewsonic 7 \? uses tube computer shopper review faults average lacking controls \( , degaussing , convergence color \) lowest priced monitor test , good center edge focus
nynexst com \( michael \) subject 66mhz standard pc wo n't run windows turbo mode keywords standard pc , general protection faults , windows workgroups reply nynexst com organization nynex science technology , inc lines 9 standard computer 486dx2 66mhz eisa tower 16mb ram , quantum hard drive , 1 2 1 44 mb floppies colorado 250mb tape drive also sound blaster pro 3com ethernet card \( \) installed machine completely stable non turbo mode turbo mode , windows workgroups crashes wo n't come windows come , get general protection faults divide zero system errors problem memory keeping speed cpu n machines \? tried reach standard computers , phones disconnected anyone know happened company \? yet another mail order horror story ! 'd prefer e mailed responses n't get read newsgroup often
eric tv tek com \( eric f \) subject headland video7 512k ver upgrade info needed article 1993apr23 organization tektronix tv measurement systems , beaverton , lines 21 headland technologies video seven board came 512k , time ok need info help upgrading board 1 mbyte 2 rows pins vram chips , think piggyback board vram would like hear anyone may able help upgrade board maybe someone headland maybe read ing one piggyback boards laying around , please please please ! anyone know could maybe buy upgrade \? would sure love use 800x600 256 color mode time , get 3 4 screen bottom part white strip , obviously missing vram , actually i'm surprised even works degree ! last resort , wind selling board \( probably getting 1 mb et4000 based dumb frame buffer editors choice 9 24 91 pc mag anyone info , please email last resort post group thanks advance
iisakkil beta hut fi \( mika iisakkila \) subject dx50 vs dx266 reply arnolm2 aix rpi edu 's message wed , 21 apr 1993 23 55 12 gmt nntp posting host beta hut fi organization helsinki university technology , finland lines 11 arnolm2 aix rpi edu \( matthew richard arnold \) writes chip future must missing something , since everyone buying dx2 66 many adds n't even mention dx 50 50 mhz external bus speed provides hell cache designs dx 50 boards slow caches make effectively dx2 50 also someone else pointed , local bus boards better 33 mhz bus speed 8k internal cache allows dx2 66 generally faster anyway segmented memory helps structure software
prism gatech edu \( greg bishop \) subject need esdi hdd \( system \) distribution usa organization national association free exchange information lines 24 ! ! ! ! ! spinrite says 80 sectors marked bad fat initially , 79 returned active use , 80 new sectors marked bad , following successive runs spinrite think need new esdi hdd controller know two work dtc adaptec others might work dtc ultra store 12 wd one sell cheaply 'll buy thanks , greg bishop hydra gatech edu gt designing night yesterday 's technology
doc cs nyu edu \( tim tsai \) subject hawk motherboard x received usenet pa dec com id fri , 23 apr 93 17 15 48 0700 x received inet gw 2 pa dec com id fri , 23 apr 93 17 15 46 0700 x received doc cs nyu edu \( 5 61 1 34 \) id fri , 23 apr 93 20 16 02 0400 x comp sys ibm pc hardware usenet x followup poster x mailer elm version 2 3 lines 12 anybody ever heard hawk eisa vlb motherboards \? net computers international \( computer shopper \) 486 33 version w 256k cache 559 i'm trying decide motherboard nice motherboard thanks ! ps hawk motherboard 3 eisa slots , two vlb spec sounds identical nice tim cs nyu edu
scott hpcvccl cv hp com \( scott linn \) subject gateway 4dx 33v high price \? nntp posting host hpcvccl cv hp com organization hewlett packard company , corvallis , oregon usa lines 18 athena mit edu \( glenn \) writes , maybe gateway system n't cheap system micron computers 486 2 50 , 16 meg ram , 245 maxtor hd , local bus ide 2 meg video card , 15 monitor system shipping came 2200 sold sx 33 chip came bought dx2 50 total price 2300 2400 think got something wrong state system , say sold sx 33 chip came make sense scott linn scott hpcvccl cv hp com
v063kcbp ubvmsd cc buffalo edu \( mitch \) subject low emission monitors besides nec \? distribution na organization university buffalo lines 34 news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host ubvmsd cc buffalo edu hartzman kilroy jpl nasa gov \( les hartzman \) writes anyone else make low radiation emission monitors besides nec \? compare necs \( quality emission wise \) \? les hartzman hartzman kilroy jpl nasa gov jet propulsion laboratory 238 528 \( 818 \) 354 4800 oak grove dr , pasadena , ca 91109 les , right working mpr ii certified \( swedish standards low emissions \) hitachi 15 monitor 's 1024x768 , 72hz res , got good write image quality recent \( feb \? \) issue pc magazine far know , little fully matches nec image quality \( least according mags ca n't tell difference two ! \) , think nec low emissions one two types 's vlf \( low frequency \) elf \( think 's extremely low frequency \) mpr ii standards set strict limits many , nec included according one article read \( get bunch mags 's hard remember ! \) , claim low emissions specifically mpr ii compliant mpr ii certified control one , usually vlf , ignore , nec probably higher overall image quality \( hear rated best close best \) , low emissions hitachi like image quality , know may discerning good luck ! mitch v063kcbp ubvms cc buffalo edu \( oh yeah got hitachi 15 insight 499 \)
mikey eukanuba wpd sgi com \( mike yang \) subject gateway 4dx2 66v update nntp posting host eukanuba wpd sgi com organization silicon graphics , inc lines 10 ordered 4dx2 66v system gateway thanks net discussions helped decide among vendors options right , 4dx2 66v system includes 16mb ram 8mb upgrade used cost additional 340 mike yang silicon graphics , inc mikey sgi com 415 390 1786
mikey sgi com \( mike yang \) subject low emission monitors besides nec \? nntp posting host eukanuba wpd sgi com organization silicon graphics , inc distribution na lines 21 article acsu buffalo edu v063kcbp ubvmsd cc buffalo edu \( mitch \) writes right working mpr ii certified \( swedish standards low emissions \) hitachi 15 monitor 's 1024x768 , 72hz res , got good write image quality recent \( feb \? \) issue pc magazine far know , little fully matches nec image quality \( least according mags ca n't tell difference two ! \) , think nec low emissions one two types 's vlf \( low frequency \) elf \( think 's extremely low frequency \) mpr ii standards set strict limits many , nec included according one article read \( get bunch mags 's hard remember ! \) , claim low emissions specifically mpr ii compliant mpr ii certified control one , usually vlf , ignore nanao 's f series \( e g f550i \) series \( e g \) monitors mpr ii compliant according little pamphlet , series monitors also compliant , whatever mike yang silicon graphics , inc mikey sgi com 415 390 1786
sinn carson u washington edu \( philip sinn \) subject et4000 w32 3dbench summary 26 3 frame per second keywords 3dbench , benchmark article shelley distribution world organization university washington , seattle lines 13 nntp posting host carson u washington edu due large amount request 3dbench et4000 w32 , finally get 3dbench v1 0 ftp site 3dbench et4000 w32 w32 card 1mb dram benchmark 26 3 frames sec hope satisfy people curiosity et4000 w32 performance benchmark program result would want know \? 8 \) philip sinn sinn carson u washington edu university washington opinions
troll gsfc nasa gov \( chris \) subject monitors nanao \? organization nasa gsfc hstx , greenbelt , md lines 21 nntp posting host troll gsfc nasa gov mime version 1 0 content type text plain charset us ascii content transfer encoding 7bit reply johnn eskimo com 's message 21 apr 93 23 03 27 gmt reply johnn eskimo com 's message 21 apr 93 23 03 27 gmt newsgroups comp sys ibm pc hardware , comp sys amiga hardware , comp sys sun hardware subject monitors nanao \? references c5uw1t 3hi eskimo com distribution text follows line nanao 17 \( \? \) ipx prefer sun 16 trinitron work vertical jitters two horizontal got one folks advertising computer shopper et al 1050 plus 40 shipping bought cable goes sun 's connector monitors 50 macintosh mailorder shop \( relax technologies \) 'd happily chris gsfc nasa gov nasa gsfc hstx 301 286
bsardis netcom com \( barry sardis \) subject date stuck organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 16 've posted couple notes problem based suggestions mark , university canterbury , new zealand chris cs wm edu think problem screen saver also outputs sound \( pc speaker \) i'm still looking screen use \( randomizer \) , one definately caused loss several minutes night \( date time \) barry sardis home \( 408 \) 448 laurie avenue office \( 408 \) 448 7404 san jose , ca 95125 fax \( 408 \) 448 7404 email bsardis netcom com 1210 compuserve com
rnichols cbnewsg cb att com \( robert k nichols \) subject com4 card shows com3 com4 's address irq ! keywords com port gurus , help ! organization distribution usa lines 31 article cie genesis nred us avinash genesis nred us writes internal modem configure com4 irq 3 , insert card dos 5 02 pc , shows com3 , irq3 com4 's address \( 2e8 \) ! get debug , dump data 40 0 , shows address 2e8 belonging com3 even though modem com4 common misconception , shared many manufacturers , programmers , users alike com3 , example , simply third equipped comm port , necessarily one address bios searches sequentially set potential comm port addresses first equipped port finds become com1 , etc 're playing rules , ca n't com4 unless com3 equipped set standard \( whatever means \) port addresses merely reflects order bios searches address space search serial ports , indeed com3 non standard address 2e8 address 4th table slot instead , programs query bios determine number installed comm ports would find , field bios data area contains number would indicate 3 comm ports installed \( frankly , n't know program would actually problem \) bob nichols bell laboratories rnichols ihlpm ih att com
sdc boeing com \( mcbride \) subject ide zenith 386 16 , okay \? distribution na organization boeing computer services \( esp \) , seattle , wa lines 9 anyone experiences , good bad , replacing mfm controller drive ide controller drive zenith 386 16 \? heard rumors bus mastering problems cpu board revisions mc bride sdc boeing com boeing computer services sdc atc boeing com \( 206 \) 865 uw beaver ! ! sdc !
magnus acs ohio state edu \( eric w \) subject exactly ibm made 486slc processor \? nntp posting host top magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university distribution na lines 11 could someone please tell 486slc processors ibm putting 700 's pc 's real 486 math coprocessor really kludge called 486 \? thanks , eric eric w der war ohio state university das nicht magnus acs ohio state edu peter schilling 120 grad 1983
mark madman demon co uk \( mark \) subject help wanted faults ide drives distribution world organization dis \( organised \) reply nick madman demon co uk x newsreader simple news 1 90 \( ka9q dis 1 21 \) lines 14 105mb ide drive problems ! get error drive c' messages reading files problem also steadily getting worse run diagnostic software \( pctools v7 1 \) says drive ok retry sectors briefly flashes error message \( quick read \) anybody know cheap free software could mark sectors bad \( dos n't \) preferably perform low level format heard latter possible ide technical answers would appreciated would nice able use disk ! ! ! running ms dos 5 clone
cc utah edu \( marc fuller \) subject cpu news software vax vms vnews 1 4 b1 organization university utah computer center lines 23 article edm wrs com , edm wrs com \( ed mcclanahan \) writes jim johnson abcd houghton mi us \( jim johnson \) writes k speaking cpu fans many use clips make sure use heat sink grease , heat transfering tape , wasted money cpu fans also heat sinks \? recommend using chip \( e heat sink cpu fan \) \? talking cpu fan blowing directly cpu chip , ca n't see heat sink grease necessary \( even desireable \) edward mcclanahan edm wrs com pc power cooling fan heat sink built fan top cpu even fan quits still heat sink aid cooling glue , course , type high thermal conductivity
cc fsu edu \( ralph \( car \) \) subject comdex \( atlanta ga \) info wanted organization florida state university computing center lines 3 know wrong newsgroup , wondering anyone knows date \( \) year 's comdex convention atlanta , ga passed already \? \? e mail possible thanks
netcom com \( alexander \) subject 486 33 tower without fan \? \? \? organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 15 originally posted complaint noisy pc got several useful suggestions , 1 run pc silence removing fan altogether ! two variables 1 \) always run pc without cover , 2 \) 'd willing attach cpu cooler would make difference try run pc without fan \? know sounds like utter folly i'm asking anyone done succesfully \? tragically \? 're answer may save pc thanks alexander netcom com \( 510 \) 848 \( voice \)
dla mil \( steve hamilton \) subject strange disk behaviour keywords disk organization defense logistics service center , battle creek , mi lines 21 286 western digital wd hard drive drive 782 cylinders 4 read write heads physically , logically 977 cylinders 5 read write heads \( \? \? ! ! \) cmos setting instructed set type 17 \( ibm 977 cyl 5 read write heads \) , problem sent western low level program manufacturer , instructed run hard drive cmos setting set type 17 worked k verified disk using program reloaded dos high level format , errors , bad sectors , etc run norton speedisk 6 01 \( disk \) verify option set , get error verifying sector nnnn , nnnn number \( time \) ideas going would appreciated ! thank ! steve hamilton dla mil
mike defiance edu au \( michael paull \) subject dx chips organization victoria university technology lines 10 x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 486 dx 33 motherboard pc 'd like speed 'd rather replace whole motherboard , instead 'd like know use dx 2 66mhz cpu bios late model ami , circa 1991 , system crystal approx 66 question , replace original 33mhz cpu new dx 2 cpu \? possible , need extra cooling devices fans \? \? mike
ldo waikato ac nz \( lawrence d'oliveiro , waikato university \) subject spigot lc iii organization university waikato , hamilton , new zealand lines 18 article 1993apr15 tau ac il , tau ac il \( isaac \) writes friend mine problems running spigot lc lc iii configuration spigot lc lc iii , system 7 1 video spigot extension 1 0 would get negative experience setup somebody comp multimedia also trouble using spigot lc iii turned needed latest version \( 1 1 1 \) , fixed things lawrence d'oliveiro fone 64 7 856 2889 computer services dept fax 64 7 838 4066 university waikato electric mail ldo waikato ac nz hamilton , new zealand 37 47' 26 , 175 19' 7 e , gmt 12 00
organization k u leuven academic computing center cc1 kuleuven ac subject powerbook sleep init request lines 9 someone asked existed init removes dialog 're gonna disconnect users something like , powerbook falls asleep said sure thing existed , thought freeware anyone help \? btw get switch , something kind , freeware \?
cbnews cb att com \( james \) subject need card sony 1320 organization distribution usa lines 12 recently made mistake purchasing sony cpd 1320 monitor mac iici monitor good , however seems iici support vga \( buy ask \? stupid reply \) looking video card , preferably 8 bit , supports vga interested information get offers sale applicable cards also considered thanks advance jim
ccwf cc utexas edu \( faisal \) subject powerbook serial ports organization university texas austin , austin tx lines 25 distribution world reply ccwf cc utexas edu \( faisal \) nntp posting host flubber cc utexas edu originator flubber cc utexas edu hello question \( two \) serial ports powerbooks \( specifically 145 system 7 0 1 \) difference serial ports powerbooks versus mac , say plus ii \? \? heard , though confirmed apple serial ports problems high speeds also heard sys 7 1 's new power manager problem allowing speeds serial port particular use board need interface powerbook via modem port 9600 baud currently , interfacing using mac pluses set everything lab nothing fact , powerbook locks anyone help , inform , advise \? would appreciate would prefer email since n't read news post summary enough response generated thanks faisal ccwf cc utexas edu ps topic discussed already , please excuse direct appropriate places thanks
cit cornell edu \( dean robinson \) subject buying high speed v everything modem nntp posting host cit cornell edu organization cornell university lines 20 rs6000 cmp ilstu edu \( eric behr \) writes quick summary recent findings high speed modems top three contenders seem paradyne , zyxel , us robotics zyxel biggest cult following , 300 , ignored need something mac software , work without tweaking n't ignored zyxel purchased mac bundle , includes hardware handshaking cable software bundle adds 35 60 price modem , depending supplier true modem mac specific docs , n't require much \( aside setting d0 init string , enable hardware handshaking \) information zyxel , including sources , look various files sumex aim stanford edu , info mac report disclaimer affiliation zyxel , though buy zyxel modem
mdavis crash cts com \( morgan davis \) subject iici rom offers 32 bit clean rom iix organization cts network services \( crash , ctsnet \) , el cajon , ca lines 17 last week 's macweek article ford indicated david ramsey 's mac iix running nicely mac iici rom , offering clean 32 bit rom code \( liberating iix virtual memory nightmare caused apple 's 32 bit system enabler \) anyone know source roms \? okay resell rom chips used machines \? know copies cannot made , seems would okay resell original used rom \( , used computer involves sale rom anyway , 's difference \? \) needless say , i'm interested purchasing rom would reasonably price offer \? morgan davis group \( 619 670 \) internet mdavis crash cts com
ferch ucs ubc ca \( les ferch \) subject ethernet card uses rose \? organization university british columbia lines 42 nntp posting host swiss ucs ubc ca 1993apr20 csu edu au golum riv csu edu au \( michael antolovich \) writes article aaron bratcher fpm mac 1 uchicago edu aaron bratcher fpm uchicago edu \( aaron bratcher \) writes anyone know ethernet card takes advantage rose extension \? hey rose extension anyway \? newsgroups comp sys mac system probulf informatik tu muenchen de \( frank probul \) subject rose centris quadra models organization technische universitaet muenchen , germany date mon , 19 apr 1993 14 33 26 gmt rose apple real time operating system environment system extension nubus cards using \( macintosh coprocessor platform \) cards nubus cards motorola 68000 processor 512 kb ram \( expandable 1 meg \) development platform hardware designers use card processor thus main processor n't needed cards currently cards know apple card new apple ethernet card apple nubus serial card perhaps third party cards , n't know frank probul 17 , 8000 munich 40 , germany applelink probul f applelink apple com internet probulf informatik tu muenchen de munich university technology department computer science germany
johnston udel edu \( bill johnston \) subject iici rom offers 32 bit clean rom iix nntp posting host udel edu organization university delaware lines 45 article mdavis crash cts com mdavis crash cts com \( morgan davis \) writes last week 's macweek article ford indicated david ramsey 's mac iix running nicely mac iici rom , offering clean 32 bit rom code \( liberating iix virtual memory nightmare caused apple 's 32 bit system enabler \) would make bit suspect mr ramsey 's qualifications self styled expert , fact , read anybody using virtual memory regularly kind wonder \) yes , one sometimes get away running newer rom \( correct size , obviously \) older machine , one prepared problems running software checks machine type rather rom trap availability draws incorrect conclusions special casing especially timing dependent driver related stuff particular case see reason go trouble rom swapping apple 32 bit enabler problems , mode32 works fine 7 0 , 7 0 1 , 7 1 anyone know source roms \? sure buy used iici motherboard call pre owned electronics , , parts dealers \( see back computer shopper one mac trades phone numbers \) ask price iici rom everything price happen find somebody iici dead motherboard , might get decent price probably market used mother boards well , might sell rom anyway needless say , i'm interested purchasing rom would reasonably price offer \? ask quote try offering less \? pre owned known dicker ads various trade magazines often list considerably different prices items , phone quotes tend vary well still , i'm aware technical reason upgrading rom iix bill johnston \( johnston udel edu \) 38 chambers street newark , de \( 302 \) 368 1949
csd ac uk \( pete edwards x \) x priority 1 \( highest \) x sender 139 133 200 20 subject centris 610 font problems cc csd ac uk , watson csd ac uk lines 41 recently got centris 610 4 230 desk 's vast improvement previous machine \( iisi 5 40 \) however 've encountered problem fonts entries filemaker 2 0 database looked fine printed previous mac using system 7 01 look wierd ! spacing characters increased greatly causing lines truncated i'm using plain bold various sizes increase character spacing seems occur sizes styles i'm using mixture truetype fixed size fonts exactly iisi things worked perfectly 've managed get similar behaviour using word 5 1 apple uk adopted usual friendly approach told us call local dealer god help us ! ! ideas \? \? dr pete edwards department computing science king 's college university aberdeen tel 44 \( 0 \) 224 96 aberdeen , fax 44 \( 0 \) 224 scotland email csd ac uk artificial flowers pieces plastic metal , crudely fashioned bear limited , superficial resemblance real flowers , credible attempt match internal complexity terms form , function , behavior artificial intelligence really smart computers
rcvillab isluga puc cl \( carlos \) subject performa lc \? \? \? nntp posting host isluga puc cl organization pontificia universidad catolica de chile x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 lines 10 hi ! ! question diference performa 450 lciii \? want know better know specifications prices computers , tell email rcvillab isluga puc cl 'd like know diference apple monitor \( \) performa monitor thanks
cory berkeley edu \( gordon \) subject new duo dock info nntp posting host cory berkeley edu organization university california , berkeley lines 16 article c558172 mizzou1 missouri edu , c558172 mizzou1 missouri edu writes little known fact macs cpu connected via cellular network cray supercomputer apple 's garage \( 's right one steve steve built apple \) shannon silly n't know division apple allowed use cray legal department \? gordon
ece cmu edu \( john edward \) subject looking magneto optical drive advice originator ece cmu edu lines 22 reply ece cmu edu \( john edward \) organization electrical computer engineering , carnegie mellon distribution cmu i'm currently trying select magneto optical drive purchase i'm primarily looking 128mb drives , although might consider ones looking macworld macuser ads , prices 128mb drives seem range 1000 \( portable , magic 128mb portable fujitsu , 128mb \) 1600 \( fwb 130 mass microsystems mo 128 \) different drives use different mechanisms , fujitsu , sony , epson , probably others problem reading nov 92 macworld apr 93 macuser reviews drives , i'm still sure get , i'm asking anyone good bad experiences 128mb drive shed light wide range prices \( spending really buying much \? \) , reliability different drives , compatibility , anything else probably know thanks john
ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( ross winston \) subject personal lw ntr serial hookup \? organization university buffalo lines 8 news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host ubvmsb cc buffalo edu anyone tell procedure hooking personal laserwriter ntr mac \? documentation says done , i'm sure correct switch setting use given non appletalk switch options also , need install new driver chooser knows printer hooked directly \( networked \) \? thanks lot , ross
trumpet calpoly edu \( papa \) subject x86 680x0 \? \? \( compare \? \) organization california polytechnic state university , san luis obispo lines 15 article 1993apr18 bmug org david schnider bmug org writes real question opinion motorola processors running system 7 mac comparable intel processors running windows pc \? recall conversation 486 25 running windows benchmarks speed 25mhz 030 system 7 n't know true , would love hear anyone technical data david seems right mac iisi 5 130 64k cache card running system 7 1 roommate 486sx 25 5 200 running windows 3 1 've seen , iisi faster operations others , comparable keep mind i'm strictly speaking operations desktop level windows 3 1 system 7 1 , actual computational speed programs
cam athena mit edu \( daniel cameron daly \) subject duo price reduction \? organization massachusetts institute technology lines 10 distribution world nntp posting host w20 575 105 mit edu someone mentioned ago duos scheduled 10 18 price reduction , according 'newsbytes' definite \? anyone know take effect \? 'newsbytes' \? thanks cam daly phone \( 617 \) 225 internet cam athena mit edu 550 memorial dr fights runs away , cambridge 02139 lives nuke site orbit
ltd uhura cc rochester edu \( kenneth \) subject need modem software recommendation keywords modem , software , help nntp posting host uhura cc rochester edu organization university rochester rochester , new york lines 15 planning buying modem related software good products wo n't cost lot money still job \? help appreciated looking something 2400 baud area kenneth kenneth david internet ltd uhura cc rochester edu c p u box 88 5 fm rochester , ny 4 cast university rochester rock reagan years 3 5 pm f r
cam athena mit edu \( daniel cameron daly \) subject selling powerbook 100s organization massachusetts institute technology lines 10 distribution world nntp posting host w20 575 105 mit edu pb 100 might selling soon upgrade duo graduation , take advantage educational discount recently bought sold pb 100 , kind price get \? info config pb100 appreciated thanks cam daly phone \( 617 \) 225 internet cam athena mit edu 550 memorial dr fights runs away , cambridge 02139 lives nuke site orbit
2545500 jeff lab queensu ca \( peter pundy \) subject x86 680x0 \? \? \( compare \? \) reply 2545500 jeff lab queensu ca organization queens university x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 29 david schnider bmug org wrote real question opinion motorola processors running system 7 mac comparable intel processors running windows pc \? stuff deleted david even better 68000 based amiga 2000 perform daily tasks compared 68030 based iici answer , except cases , get butt kicked amiga sure considerations , goes show proper design beginning \( hardware software \) give great returns well showing n't marketing department speak , one care good system i'm still happy ci , n't understand performance bad \( comparatively \) could done multi tasking properly could done everthing else better apple n't \( course dos 6 windows 3 1 write home either ! ! \) oh well , y'all got 2 00 worth price 0 02 peter pundy email 2545500 jeff lab queensu ca 've got witty wisdom share , nice day anyway
essex ecn uoknor edu \( chris michael \) subject networking macs pc nntp posting host essex ecn uoknor edu organization engineering computer network , university oklahoma , norman , ok , usa lines 24 work small appletalk network 3 macs couple printers also pc specialized accounting software would like operate macs soft pc , found software works fine , would like data program reside one place \( pc hard disk \) question \( actually questions \) 1 \) board pc allow hook appletalk network \? 2 \) 1 possible , software hardware combination allow mount pc hard disk networked disk macs use soft pc run application \? 3 \) 1 2 impossible , way accomplish \? chris university oklahoma share split essex ecn uoknor edu
cola pax tpa com au \( geoff peters \) subject mac plus constantly rebooting ! reply cola pax tpa com au organization clipboard , fidonet 3 800 861 lines 25 tae shin \( husc8 harvard edu \) wrote basically , mac pluses constantly rebooting , reboot button pushed sometimes mac able fully boot display desktop , matter time reboots times , frequency high several times minute wonder mac little reset interupt switches installed plastic devices push switches inside mac switches bad need replacing wish caught original post , anyway problem plus 's poor old power supply \( sometimes referred analog sweep board \) way apart board swap \( apple \) , 's much average joe fix , course , try adjust voltage levels \( 5v rail close 5v cn get \) often temporary fix copy larry 's repair upgrade secrets worthwhile investment serious er geoff peters cola flash pax tpa com au
2545500 jeff lab queensu ca \( peter pundy \) subject x86 680x0 \? \? \( compare \? \) reply 2545500 jeff lab queensu ca organization queens university x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 33 guess real question asked original questions , broad talking pure processing power \( kind processing btw \) isolated every factor influence system \? shopping home computer based cpu specs \( yuck \) ! finished project involves real time processing serial data discovered programming interface \( assembly \) lot power cpu particular application want easy code instruction set given , easy , 's cheap quick fake things \( like resolving without lea instruction \) , cycle count goes roof ! well , let 's start flame war whose computer better whose orginal question micro processors read entire thread , n't think much said without getting specific proposed systems important details given 's another 0 02 cheers everyone peter pundy email 2545500 jeff lab queensu ca 've got witty wisdom share , nice day anyway
fsu edu \( \? \? \) subject good hard disk driver non apple drives \? \( sys 7 1 compat \) organization disaster , inc lines 22 article jartsu lk hp 20 hut fi , jartsu hut fi \( jartsu \) wrote hi ! recommendation good hard disk driver software non apple drives \? would mainly need syquest removable media drive , maybe normal drives fwb distributes hdt personal edition \( hdt hard drive toolkit \) , less fancy full version , good enough want blanca offers drive7 , i'm familiar think drive7 hdt pe around us 50 've used work \( v 5 42 \? \? \) , like hdt pe much better imho better interface , easier understand drive7 users \? james
ferch ucs ubc ca \( les ferch \) subject apple going ship cd300i 's \? organization university british columbia lines 14 nntp posting host swiss ucs ubc ca umcc umcc umich edu dlc umcc umcc umich edu \( david \) writes btw , 've heard system install cd used boot mac however , drive accept cd caddy machine boot \? supplemental manual comes quadra 800 explains n't manual front , recall , insert cd machine running , select restart special menu , hold special sequence keys force boot cd instead hard disk think key combination command option delete command ctrl del
drg biomath mda uth tmc edu \( david gutierrez \) subject calling mac gurus organization univ texas anderson cancer center lines 15 distribution world nntp posting host ratatosk mda uth tmc edu article usenet ins cwru edu charles p cox , jr cox snowhite eeap cwru edu writes put 2 256k vram simms quadra 700 \( 2 slots closest ram simm slots \) got results whatsoever make difference slots put simms \? vram simms go slots back closest power supply david gutierrez drg biomath mda uth tmc edu fools positive moe howard
chungkuo umcc umcc umich edu \( shawn fitzgerald \) subject quadra 900 startup w monitor ya right organization umcc , ann arbor , mi lines 27 nntp posting host umcc umcc umich edu article 1993apr20 tdb uu se mats bredell udac uu se writes shawn fitzgerald \( chungkuo umcc umcc umich edu \) wrote fix \? quadra 900 finish startup unless monitor connected would problem , since 're running file server , need monitor connected time 've seen control panel made n't remember name , saw , quadra models work know exists \) mats mats bredell mats bredell udac uu se uppsala university computing center \( udac \) ph 46 18 department medical systems fax 46 18 sweden think straight gay ! poke around u archives see find something anyone else finds , please post location ! \) \? shawn fitzgerald umcc \( u computing club \) michigan chungkuo umcc umich edu whether quiet alive , quiet dead makes difference
corona hsc usc edu \( daniel chen \) subject mac oriented bbss organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 4 distribution world nntp posting host corona hsc usc edu i'm also interested mac based bbs , chicago would greatly appreciate someone could post list bbss la area preferably \( 818 \) also \( 213 \) thanks dan
lincoln cri nz subject computer component source inc phone number organization agriculture science centre lines 8 nntp posting host lincoln cri nz would like know regular international phone number computer supplier called computer component source free phone number 1 800 356 number use customers outside us wish upgrade power supply couple mac plus computers would like make contact computer component source bruce crop food research lincoln cri nz
andy ie utoronto ca \( andy sun \) subject asante ethernet adapter lciii math chip organization university toronto , department industrial engineering lines 17 hi , told local sales asante come lciii pds ethernet adapter optional 68882 socket board question fpu performance degrade put 68882 pds card socket instead motherboard \? intuitively , math co processor always placed close cpu , sure good apple 's called processor direct slot comes throughout anyone know answer experience asante lciii ethernet adapter \? thanks advance andy andy sun \( andy ie utoronto ca \) 4 creek road , toronto computing coordinator ontario , canada m5s 1a4 department industrial engineering phone \( 416 \) 978 university toronto fax \( 416 \) 978
kolstad cae wisc edu \( joel kolstad \) subject pin imagewriter ii serial port \? organization u wisconsin madison college engineering lines 11 hi , could kind soul please e mail copy pinout serial connector imagewriter ii printer \? one 'd like hook pc , seems nobody sells proper cables anymore problem make one , need know pinout first thanks advance joel kolstad kolstad cae wisc edu
utkvx utk edu \( lo , \) subject harddrive news software vax vms vnews 1 41 organization university tennessee computing center lines 11 anyone know add additional internal hard drive mac iisi replace already existing ! think hooking internal drive together ways add internal harddrive beside replacement n't external harddrive i'm open suggestions please response address thanks internet utkvx utk edu bitnet utkvx
qman casbah acns nwu edu \( charlie kuehmann \) subject quadra 900 startup w monitor ya right nntp posting host ironman ms nwu edu organization northwestern university lines 31 article umcc umcc umich edu , chungkuo umcc umcc umich edu \( shawn fitzgerald \) wrote article 1993apr20 tdb uu se mats bredell udac uu se writes shawn fitzgerald \( chungkuo umcc umcc umich edu \) wrote fix \? quadra 900 finish startup unless monitor connected would problem , since 're running file server , need monitor connected time 've seen control panel made n't remember name , saw , quadra models work know exists \) mats mats bredell mats bredell udac uu se uppsala university computing center \( udac \) ph 46 18 department medical systems fax 46 18 sweden think straight gay ! poke around u archives see find something anyone else finds , please post location ! \) think found looking ftp apple com dts mac sys soft video directory called virtual monitor switch 1 0 hope helps charles kuehmann northwestern university steel research group
tanaka ircam fr subject serial pinout connect pc keywords , rs232 , serial , adaptor , cable reply tanaka ircam fr organization ircam lines 21 sorry , must faq , 's quick fix need take care demo less 24 hours ! could n't think better place rapid answer comp sys mac hardware need connect serial 386 20 pc printer port mac iici anyone handy pin pin routing cable would allow connection \? serial port compaq male would map mac serial \? tried one really short cables apple sold adaptors plug macintosh serial peripherals pre macplus era cable n't need null modem adaptor well side things \? need able map data tx rx pins correctly thanks kindly , tanaka tanaka ircam fr
med yale edu \( chris \) subject expand ram plus \? keywords plus , ram nntp posting host med yale edu reply med yale edu organization dept nmr research , yale school medicine lines 14 mac plus 2 5mb ram bought extra 2mb max 4mb ram plus supports however , ca n't get boot install 2 extra simms instead get sad mac \( sorry , ca n't remember code \) looking motherboard , see 2 resistors says path 1 row assume done first 1mb simms added , question resistors need \? , bum simms need exchanged \? advice appreciated chris med yale edu
eniac seas upenn edu \( george \) subject mac plus constantly rebooting ! organization university pennsylvania , mechanical engineering lines 16 nntp posting host eniac seas upenn edu basically , mac pluses constantly rebooting , reboot button pushed sometimes mac able fully boot well threads going long enough 'll add twist found constant rebooting due added 4mb ram , operating non ac environment adding external cooling fan fixed right \( year ago \) george jefferson george mech seas upenn edu
hopper cs ucsd edu \( steve hopper \) subject pc hand scan mac \? summary hand scanner mac keywords scanner lines 15 nntp posting host odin ucsd edu logitech hand scanner pc i'm wondering anyone successful connecting scanner mac \? connector serial device pc imagine pins would need , i'm sure signal levels would correct , mac w would work course manuals say nothing interface , connector layout anything h w ish ! ideas \? \? thanx , steve
jmilhoan magnus acs ohio state edu \( jt \) subject duo price reduction \? nntp posting host bottom magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 16 article senator bedfellow mit edu cam athena mit edu \( daniel cameron daly \) writes someone mentioned ago duos scheduled 10 18 price reduction , according 'newsbytes' definite \? anyone know take effect \? 'newsbytes' \? thanks already happened far know got email three weeks ago saying coming , sure enough , week duos dropped price think duo 210 4 80 around us 1 , educational prices dropped , imagine others well , n't really checked around since boycott local reasons extend past 13 years jt
hk mlr forsythe stanford edu \( mark rogowsky \) subject asante ethernet adapter lciii math chip organization stanford university lines 29 distribution usa nntp posting host morrow stanford edu article ie utoronto ca , andy ie utoronto ca \( andy sun \) writes hi , told local sales asante come lciii pds ethernet adapter optional 68882 socket board question fpu performance degrade put 68882 pds card socket instead motherboard \? intuitively , math co processor always placed close cpu , sure good apple 's called processor direct slot comes throughout anyone know answer experience asante lciii ethernet adapter \? thanks advance andy andy sun \( andy ie utoronto ca \) 4 creek road , toronto computing coordinator ontario , canada m5s 1a4 department industrial engineering phone \( 416 \) 978 university toronto fax \( 416 \) 978 believe fpu lciii always supposed go logic board , pds board heard crashing problems pds based lciii asante may fixed bother bother building lciii card fpu anyway \? extra circuitry gives card one chance fail say fpu main logic board , socket , ethernet alone pds card , slot mark
dan coyote trw com \( dan \) subject duo price reduction \? organization trw , inc lines 13 article senator bedfellow mit edu , cam athena mit edu \( daniel cameron daly \) wrote someone mentioned ago duos scheduled 10 18 price reduction , according 'newsbytes' definite \? anyone know take effect \? 'newsbytes' \? local la stores already reduced prices 200 duo configurations \( although apple dropped list price 310 \) dan
mace cc purdue edu \( young jong \) subject 24bit lcii \? keywords third party adapter organization purdue university distribution usa lines 7 third party video ram adapter 24 bit color lcii \? heard apple selling 160 please e mail thanks young mace cc purdue edu
russotto eng umd edu \( matthew russotto \) subject jump starting mac ii organization project glue , university maryland , college park lines 14 distribution usa nntp posting host tea eng umd edu article 1993apr19 microsoft com v microsoft com \( kenneth charlton \) writes apple dealerships kits replace soldered batteries battery holder real easy install , require soldering yes , 4 points , really big holes fairly clear stuff board replace battery , install battery holder matthew russotto russotto eng umd edu russotto wam umd edu news readers expect disclaimer say police searches seizures make use force \( responsible bodily harm resulting following advice \)
jyow desire wright edu subject use dat tape backup \? organization wright state university lines 9 access dec dec dat tape backup need interface se 30 tape backup tape backup scsi norton utilities sufficient interface two \? jason yow human factors psychology program wright state university , dayton , oh e mail jyow desire wright edu
altheimm nextnet csus edu \( murray altheim \) subject selling powerbook 100s organization california state university sacramento lines 23 article senator bedfellow mit edu cam athena mit edu \( daniel cameron daly \) writes pb 100 might selling soon upgrade duo graduation , take advantage educational discount recently bought sold pb 100 , kind price get \? info config pb100 appreciated thanks cam daly cam , several months ago bought 4 40 pb100 external floppy , appletalk remote access , kensington case ac adapter complete documentation almost new condition , used us 900 considered good buy cosy little baby \) murray murray altheim ils ont de , d'un , instructional consultant la d'un , la face csu , sacramento comme un rouge altheimm csus edu un , ou pres eau qui
pinghua berkeley edu \( pinghua young \) subject apple going ship cd300i 's \? organization university california berkeley lines 21 nntp posting host berkeley edu article umcc umcc umich edu dlc umcc umcc umich edu \( david \) writes 1 system install 2 kodak photo cd sampler 3 alice ocean 4 cdrom titles 5 application demos 6 mozart dissonant 7 8 apple chronicles assume get 8 titles plus cinderella games demo cdrom cd300 \( external , arrived \) 2 8 plus cinderella game demo derek pinghua pinghua young , department economics pinghua econ berkeley edu university california berkeley pinghua econ bitnet berkeley , california 94720 , u c \? k sv
schwarze delphi nosc mil \( david schwarze \) subject dat drives organization san diego state university , college sciences lines 28 nntp posting host delphi nosc mil x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl7 kelly roy \( uhunix uhcc hawaii edu \) wrote hey , i'm purchase dat drive anyone know mail order vendors offer dat drives hp 's mechanism \? mechanism available \? good , bad points \? bought one relax technologies big mistake drive jumpers set incorrectly n't work first , software shipped drive \( new compression model \) , worst , opened drive fiddle jumpers , found inside case covered metal ! ! ! sorry shout apparently drilled mounting holes case forgot clean putting drive hp drive , way , working fine \( knock wood \) , thanks relax technologies hey , mileage may vary , let suggest buy relax technologies , even though prices usually lowest dave dave schwarze \( schwarze delphi nosc mil next mail schwarze saic com \) opinions expressed
david morgan hal9k ann arbor mi us \( david morgan \) subject mac lc sale distribution world organization hal 9000 bbs , w net hq , ann arbor , michigan , usa reply david morgan hal9k ann arbor mi us \( david morgan \) lines 36 sale apple macintosh lc 2 mb ram , 40 mb hdd , fdd 13 hi res rgb monitor keyboard , mouse , microphone , kensington masterpiece mac ii running system 7 documentation manuals symantec 1 00 mac tools deluxe 1 2 loaded hdd disks manuals included hardware mint condition , used total 60 minutes absolutely nothing wrong system , ca n't get used mac using pc 800 shipping costs \( non negotiable \) also , option person purchases apple stylewriter printer accessory kit brand new , never used , factory sealed carton 200 shipping costs reply via e mail david morgan hal9k ann arbor mi us leave phone number \( fast \) call 313 552 1769 \( 24 hr voice mail \) \( faster \) serious inquiries , please first come , first served \( ad originally posted conference couple weeks ago , first buyer could n't finance purchase accidentally killed replies sorry \) hal 9000 bbs qwk usenet gateway four 14400 v 32bis dial ins free usenet mail 200 newsgroups ! pcboard 14 5am uupcb kmail call 1 313 663 4173 663 3959 member eff , asp , asad 1500mb disk serving ann arbor since 1988
folsom cup portal com \( keith e folsom \) subject lciii logic board work organization portal system \( tm \) distribution world lines 22 purchased lciii recently heard bit work logic board opened mine found work , small chip glued board couple green wires running two chips 'd like know could anyone following information please post \? thanks bunch 1 work accomplish \( e , fix \) \? 2 technical details work \? \( i'm looking things purpose chips new wires connected , pin outs chips \) 3 board work different functionally one without \? 4 could worked boards incompatible future releases operating system \? , finally , 5 even concerned \? keith folsom folsom cup portal com
mike diack mike staff tc umn edu subject swim \? x xxdate wed , 21 apr 93 15 37 52 gmt nntp posting host dialup slip 1 3 gw umn edu organization persian cat carpet co x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d7 lines 5 used live 1990 se , marked 344 0062 , roms go 341 2 solution person wants upgrade fdhd \? cheers mike
subject imagewriter ii problem ! bliss b cunyvm bitnet organization city university new york lines 5 urgent help needed daughter se 30 imagewriter ii worked well yesterday tries print ii printing message comes , printing ! bought new cable , still printing moved cable modem port , still printing ! i'm dos person n't know begin diagnostics mac \?
dickie schaefer math wisc edu \( garth dickie \) subject centris 610 video problem i'm also ! organization univ wisconsin dept mathematics lines 44 horton sps mot com \( david horton \) writes bm967 cleveland freenet edu \( david kantrowitz \) writes computer set 256 colors certain operations done , particularly vertical scrolling window , horizontal white lines appear monitor \( generally always spare open windows \) lines accummulate operation continued window moved involved area screen moved away line disappear area screen problem observed monitor configured 16 colors 14 inch apple monitor 256 colors used anyone problems given configurations \? \( would help eliminate design flaw explanation \) data point , i'm using centris 610 4 80 apple 16 monitor problems produce similar artifacts using centris 610 apple 16 monitor got 8 230 cd configuration , board ethernet 1 megabyte video ram effect occurs 256 color 256 grey modes vertical scrolling operation , whether scrollbar , say , using vi inserting lines , produce scattering horizontal flickering lines screen persist visible perhaps one refresh , part screen back usual seem always start pixel left , maybe 512 pixels wide certainly preventing using macintosh \) , seem sign something perhaps grounded incorrectly video circuitry went ahead called apple customer assistance center , 1 800 776 , 1 800 767 2775 \( direct \? \) person answered polite \) also took chance complain mouse button sticking , mac hanging boot \( hard killed \) crash left cd drive \( play 5 minutes get thing eject , mac booted fine \) garth dickie dickie math wisc edu
douce tfsquad mn org \( andrew geweke \) subject lc ii slowdowns \? organization tfsquad public access usenet , st paul mn \( 1 612 291 \) lines 24 currently managing , among many labs , lab three lc iis , mac plus 45 mb external hd , laserwriter ii ntx problem \? lc iis seem intermittently slow snail 's pace lc iis 4 mb ram , 256k vram , quantum hd installed reformatted drive hard disk toolkit 1 3 , gives respectable 2 9 overall rating drive , 's drive reinstalled system 7 1 , ms word 5 1a , ms works 3 0 , , master disks short , done everything think software hardware hacker , though pop cases fairly often nothing works problem intermittent unpredictable mouse always moves smoothly , floppies always run speed , occasionally , 1 2 hours time , machine run like running 4 mhz 68000 , 16 mhz 68030 frustrating makes nearly unusable seem worsen increasing disk activity anyone encountered problem \? anyone got ideas \? would much appreciated andrew geweke douce tfsquad mn org \( andrew geweke \) firing squad bbs , public access usenet mail news 1 612 291 saint paul , minnesota
jcs sage cc purdue edu \( stalnaker \) subject system 6 0 8l organization purdue university computing center lines 5 , ernest stalnaker jcs sage cc purdue edu oo oo ! pur ee ! sage cc ! jcs
gsusgi2 gsu edu \( jonathan n deitch \) subject check purchase ! \( dat drives \) organization georgia state university lines 39 schwarze delphi nosc mil \( david schwarze \) writes bought one relax technologies big mistake drive jumpers set incorrectly n't work first , software shipped drive \( new compression model \) , worst , opened drive fiddle jumpers , found inside case covered metal ! ! ! sorry shout apparently drilled mounting holes case forgot clean putting drive hp drive , way , working fine \( knock wood \) , thanks relax technologies found observe following almost new equipment check tape none , carefully open unit inspect loose wires , jumpers , screws , trash clean manufacturing mistakes power unit check ca n't think many things 've bought n't okay right box due sloppy qc jonathan ps goes manufacturer i'm picking anyone internet gsusgi2 gsu edu fidonet jonathan deitch 1 133 411 7 gisatl fidonet org 1 \( 404 \) 261 atlanta 1996 ! ! play pinball ! ! n't panic ! hate ca n't trust technology ! ! ! magic ! prizes ! hurricane gene , isaac asimov , jim henson , dr , mel blanc sigh
thomas kephart kephart snowhite eeap cwru edu subject system 6 0 8l organization case school engineering lines 9 distribution world nntp posting host b62182 student cwru edu x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d20 x xxmessage id b62182 student cwru edu x xxdate wed , 21 apr 93 00 08 01 gmt lines 5 , ernest stalnaker jcs sage cc purdue edu oo oo ! pur ee ! sage cc ! jcs nice train wait mac hardware , mac \?
subject computer repairs br4416a auvm american edu organization american university university computing center lines 9 anyone know one become educated art repairing macintosh computers \? also , one gain prestige refered authorized apple service person \? anyone actually done maybe even know someone would appreciate comments subject ben roy internet br4416a american edu pcs \( poor college student \)
iastate edu \( eric \) subject cache card iisi organization iowa state university , ames ia lines 43 ran speedometer 3 21 's tests \( \) iisi first 64k cache enabled , cache disabled put runs uuencoded machine record numbers favor cache , mostly benchmarks lot memory throughput cut begin 644 cache sit 70 ! \( 0 \? yo g rp ! \? f ! 0 \) 0 8v c 4 8v 7b 36 09 , \? g qb np , \) ! 1 ! b r b \( w 4 n \? p \? ft k f 1 r w 6 2 mg9 1s7 p5 q w k4 5x 3 mm v0 9p 5 1 a8 \? 2 j 6x z k zh 9 oe 5 c , 7 \? \? \? \( 7 \) 1r g 7 \? mo mm aa \? l , \? yh 6 9y gf \? 9f 9o 3g 9k \( 'f , ! 5' 7 q 8 1 ! \( mb 9 , w \( \) yv k , \? l95 l u us f \? 0 mv 7 p g k 9h , n ! \? 0 v 8w \) 4 \) sr \? g \( ! sn z , ' \( 9 x w 4 w v \) , mn cx h g yr \? \? l 4' \) 6 sv l f2 q u , w xt , \) jc c x \) px , 8u w' e cw ox e ! \) h c7 x \? \? 9 \( 2 \? q \) \( fh \( e 4u ! n u \? 7 \) x w 97 cv 7 \? s8 ! qc ry l \? 7 ! 4m e \) ki \( o' n 5 pc u \? 8 3 \? w ! v u em r e5 3 1 4 \( 5 \? ! a5 \( \( \) 7v , h , \? 07 \( 2g \) 7 f , pz end eric help room consultant , 138 durham \( 515 \) 294 storms sage smile upon face , home 296 ames ia never want leave place
panix com \( richard l rosen \) subject system 6 0 7 macintosh iifx cannot run multifinder \( beeps \) summary machine beeps continuously running 6 0 7 iifx keywords repeated beeping , 6 0 7 , iifx , multifinder reply itt com organization lines 17 friend macintosh iifx running system 6 0 7 \( enough memory yet run sys7 adequately \) , noticed tries use multifinder machine , machine beep every seconds , , friend tendency install things machine rather , rebuild system scratch still occurs problem sound familiar anyone \? know problem caused something really obscure known simple thing \( yeah , right \) someone familiar \( like system 6 0 7 multifinder n't run mac iifx \) , someone knows looking , please send e mail either \( itt com \) thanx advance digging dirt , stay need support digging dirt , find places got hurt rich rosen open places got hurt panix com
erh0362 tesla njit edu \( elliotte rusty harold \) subject introductory macintosh frequently asked questions \( faq \) supersedes macintosh general faq gza com organization department mathematics , njit lines 1037 expires 19 may 1993 04 00 07 gmt reply erh0362 tesla njit edu \( elliotte harold \) nntp posting host pad thai aktis com summary document answers number frequently asked questions macintoshes usenet avoid wasting bandwidth matter politeness please familiarize document posting keywords faq , macintosh , mac , macintosh , mac , general , introduction x last updated 1993 04 19 archive name macintosh general faq version 2 1 3 last modified april 16 , 1993 copyright 1993 , elliotte harold changes 2 1 ftp macintosh software \? added ftp site anl anl fr 2 5 bin \? hqx \? cpt \? image \? etc \? disk decode archives binhex 5 0 decode macbinary files , stuffit files last version erroneously indicated 2 7 added question get binhex , stuffit etc pc \? comp sys mac faq part 1 introduction macintosh newsgroups introduction 1 use document \? 2 information available \? 3 newsgroup post \? 4 someone asked system taking sixteen megabytes iicx n't display knowledge world posting response question \? ii ftp 1 ftp macintosh software \? 2 get shareware e mail \? 3 find application x \? 4 someone mail application x \? 5 bin \? hqx \? cpt \? image \? etc \? 6 get binhex \? stuffit \? etc \? 7 get binhex , stuffit , etc pc \? iii troubleshooting things go wrong 1 identify problem 2 read read file 3 check viruses 4 reinstall application support files 5 reinstall system software 6 isolate problem 7 contact technical support iv preventive maintenance 1 trash files 2 extensions 3 rebuild desktop 4 zap pram reset clock 5 resize system heap 6 reinstall system software 7 disk utilities 8 backing 9 disk defragmentation 10 reformatting hard disk faq lists currently available b comp sys mac system memory 1 system using much memory \? 2 mode 32 \? 32 bit enabler \? need \? 3 cache carry \( much memory cache \? \) ii system software 1 apple charge system 7 1 \? 2 system 7 1 give 35 system 7 0 n't \? 3 get system 7 1 \? 4 use system 6 system 7 mac \? 5 non us scripts systems 6 system 7 \? need \? 7 da 's disappear turn multifinder \? 8 need system 7 0 1 \? 9 get system 7 0 1 800k disks \? iii hard disks , , file system 1 help ! folder disappeared ! 2 ca n't throw folder away \? 3 ca n't share removable drive \? 4 ca n't eject syquest cartridge \? cd rom \? etc 5 ca n't rename hard disk \? iv miscellaneous 1 system error xxx mean \? 2 type 1 error \? 3 rose \? 4 easy access one answer , many questions c comp sys mac misc viruses 1 help ! virus ! 2 reporting new viruses ii printing postscript 1 make postscript file \? 2 print postscript file \? 3 wo n't postscript file print mainframe 's printer \? 4 postscript files big \? 5 print postscript non postscript printer \? 6 make imagewriter ii print color \? 7 n't work imagewriter \? 8 document change printed \? 9 preview postscript file \? 10 edit postscript file \? iii dos mac 1 move files mac pc \? 2 translate files dos format \? 3 buy softpc real pc \? iv security 1 prevent users changing contents folder \? 2 password protect mac \? v particular place go \( miscellaneous \) 1 good books mac \? 2 take picture screen \? 3 use picture desktop \? 4 replace welcome macintosh box picture \? 5 autodoubler \? \? disk space \? safe \? 6 compare , stacker \? 7 icons go \? 8 find user group \? work copyright 1993 elliotte harold permission hereby granted distribute unmodified document provided fee excess normal line charges required distribution portions document may extracted quoted free charge without necessity citation normal line communication provided said quotes represented correspondent 's original work permission quotation document printed material edited line communication \( info mac digest tidbits \) given subject normal citation procedures \( e say got \) disclaimer best ensure information contained document current accurate , accept responsibility actions resulting information contained herein document provided warranty kind corrections suggestions addressed erh0362 tesla njit edu apple , macintosh , laserwriter , imagewriter , finder , hypercard multifinder registered trademarks powerbook trademark apple computer , inc registered trademark hell ag , inc postscript registered trademark illustrator photoshop trademarks adobe systems , inc microsoft registered trademark microsoft corporation pagemaker registered trademark aldus corp autodoubler diskdoubler trademarks fifth generation systems , inc stuffit stuffit deluxe trademarks raymond lau systems , inc stuffit trademark systems , inc disk space trademark software corporation trademark golden triangle computers , inc unix registered trademark trademarks respective manufacturers first part faq second part posted comp sys mac system features many questions system software third part posted every two weeks comp sys mac misc tables contents two pieces included please familiarize three sections document posting pieces available anonymous ftp rtfm mit edu \( 18 172 1 27 \) directory pub usenet news answers macintosh except introductory faq appears multiple newsgroups stored general faq z , name file format last part group name followed faq z , e g faq comp sys mac system stored system faq z faq comp sys mac misc stored misc faq z rtfm stores files compressed \( z \) binary files leave z end file name getting file , rtfm automatically decompress file sending also files mailed sending e mail message mail server rtfm mit edu line send pub usenet news answers macintosh name body text name name file want specified \( e g general faq \) also send server message subject help detailed instructions question \( 1 0 \) congratulations ! 've come right place usenet wonderful resource information ranging basic questions \( lock floppy disk \? \) queries would make steve jobs run screaming room terror \( used resedit remove resources init 11 , 34 , 17 system file used hex editor add code string patch routine standard file dialog box would nice shade everything worked fine installed , use aldus driver print pagemaker 5 6000 system hangs p i'm running system 6 0 2 powerbook 170 \) since macintosh newsgroups medium high volume , ask first peruse faq list including least table contents pieces , check relevant line resources listed question 1 2 , especially faq lists macintosh newsgroups , rtfm \( read friendly manual \) posting question realize personally incensed system taking fourteen newly installed twenty megs ram , question already made way around world three hundred times , 's developing tired feet finally , posting newsgroup \( macintosh otherwise \) , please familiarize basic etiquette usenet described newsgroup news announce newusers use document \? get \? \( 1 1 \) comp sys mac faq currently divided multiple pieces , general introduction 're reading , specific lists newsgroups comp sys mac system comp sys mac misc faq lists comp sys mac wanted , comp sys mac apps comp sys mac hardware development ready part available respective newsgroup pieces available via anonymous ftp rtfm mit edu pub usenet news answers macintosh directory except document named general faq z pieces named per last part newsgroup cover followed faq , e g system faq z , misc faq z z means file stored compressed 'll need ftp binary mode use either , stuffit deluxe , unix uncompress command decompress however leave z extension get file , rtfm automatically decompress file sending introductory document posted concerned newsgroups tables contents specific faq lists beginning file able get least idea whether question answered anywhere else faq even n't parts hand 's always obvious , especially newcomers , particular question comment posted please familiarize faq lists major macintosh newsgroups posting questions appear faqs serve basic guide posts belong jump particular question search section number question number enclosed example find ftp macintosh software \? search string \( 2 1 \) jump section instead question use zero question number information available \? \( 1 2 \) comp sys mac faq provides short answers number frequently asked questions appropriate usenet newsgroup comp sys mac misc comp sys mac system four files worthy particular note daryl maintains faq list covering macintosh programming newsgroup comp sys mac programmer 's posted group weekly available anonymous ftp ftp cs uoregon \( 128 223 8 8 \) pub mac eric rosen maintains frequently asked questions list comp sys mac comm available newsgroup rascal ics utexas edu mac faq \( file 're reading also archived \) list answers many frequently asked questions networking , unix mac , telecommunications , foreign file formats norm walsh compiled excellent faq comp fonts answers lot questions various kinds fonts cross platform conversion printing 's available comp fonts ftp cs umass edu pub norm comp fonts faq finally jim jagielski maintains faq comp unix aux covering apple 's unix environment , ux 's posted every 2 3 weeks comp unix aux news answers 's available anonymous ftp jagubox gsfc nasa gov newsgroup post \? \( 1 3 \) stupid questions , misplaced ones would n't ask english teacher definite integral ln x zero one , would \? n't ask programmer newsgroup system slow microsoft word background ignorance basic excuse want people help , need learn ways communicating posting questions proper newsgroup fill mailbox pearls wisdom \( maybe rotten \) \) posting wrong newsgroup often thundering silence instance common glaring , one seems macintosh regions usenet would purple elephant arctic , asking question networking anywhere except comp sys mac comm , normally produces useful responses posting question comp sys mac comm ensures post read considered dozens experienced network administrators network software designers please post exactly one newsgroup cross post question n't important enough take extra minute figure properly belongs , 's important enough several thousand people spend time reading reason comp sys mac misc used catch newsgroup breakdown questions different newsgroups document also serve reasonable guide belongs specifically questions productivity applications \( software bought macintosh run , software bought make macintosh run better \) go comp sys mac apps unless application covered specific newsgroup communications programs , games , hypercard , compilers databases topical comp sys mac newsgroups post questions non communications hardware including questions software necessary make particular hardware work comp sys mac hardware questions system software belong comp sys mac system questions utilities extensions normally belong comp sys mac misc questions ux go comp unix aux detailed questions appletalk belong comp protocols appletalk direct questions hypercard comp sys mac hypercard non hypercard programming questions questions development environments go comp sys mac programmer resedit questions may posted either comp sys mac misc , comp sys mac system , comp sys mac programmer generally netters inhabit darker recesses comp sys mac programmer considerably practiced art resource hacking general exception rules technical question application actually begins delve 's program well 's \( recent example written entirely assembly compare word processors written high level languages \? \) might better addressed programmer newsgroup sale want buy posts go comp sys mac wanted misc forsale computers mac understand 're desperate sell upgraded 128k mac get powerbook 180 trust , anyone wants buy reading comp sys mac wanted political religious questions \( mac better windows ! ! ! ! ! hey ! 'bout amiga ! \? ! ! \) belong comp sys mac advocacy anything specifically mentioned probably belongs comp sys mac misc finally n't provincial consider comp sys mac newsgroups appropriate forums questions many questions modems comp sys mac comm much thoroughly discussed comp dcom modems questions mac midi often better handled comp music even though 's macintosh specific newsgroup shop around usenet 's big place everything relevant macintosh happens comp sys mac 4 someone asked system taking sixteen twenty megabytes ram put wit display world posting response \? frequent answers boring frequent questions unless really something new add traditional answers \( recent discovery fonts system 7 1 could eat memory \) private e mail much better medium answering common questions like one might want add mention faq e mail response polite suggestion correspondent read posting future questions read newsgroups covered written small script microphone ii lets send 's \( people frequently asked questions \) section document answers question click button please n't feel obligated respond someone cares little answer question ca n't troubled read faq list get ftp \( 2 0 \) ftp mac software \? \( 2 1 \) three major north american internet archives shareware , freeware , demo software sumex aim stanford edu \( 36 44 0 6 \) , mac archive umich edu \( 141 211 165 41 \) , wuarchive wustl edu \( 128 252 135 4 \) mirrors two sites several others wuarchive often holds files sites remove space concerns , still files deleted formerly important site , rascal ics utexas edu rascal notable storing files macbinary format rather less efficient binhex format common archives unless otherwise noted shareware freeware mentioned document available sites keep traffic internet , scandinavians try connecting ftp funet fi \( 128 214 6 100 \) , ftp lth se \( 130 235 20 3 \) , sics se \( 192 16 123 90 \) instead u k look first src doc ic ac uk \( 146 169 2 1 \) continental europeans try nic switch ch \( 130 59 1 40 \) , ethz ch \( 129 132 2 72 \) , anl anl fr \( 192 54 179 1 \) australian users try find want archie au \( 139 130 4 6 \) mirrors info mac mac archive japanese users find sumex mirrored ftp u tokyo ac jp \( 130 69 254 254 \) fourth important site ftp apple com \( 130 43 2 3 \) apple 's semi official repository system software , developer tools , source code , technical notes , things come less straight apple 's mouth material site may distributed outside u sites n't official license distribute apple system software please read various readme documents available ftp apple com detailed info 're connecting outside u wish redistribute material find get shareware e mail \? \( 2 2 \) info mac archives sumex aim available e mail listserv bitnet \( alternately listserv rice edu \) listserver responds commands help , index , get filename mac archive files available mac mac archive umich edu send message containing words help index \( quotes \) first two lines message instructions getting started list files may request retrieve files sites using server ftpmail decwrl dec com details send message text help \( quotes \) find application x \? \( 2 3 \) ca n't find 're looking one sites , try nearest archie server sending e mail message addressed archie subject help archie servers located archie rutgers edu \( 128 6 18 15 , america \) , archie mcgill ca \( 132 206 2 3 , original archie server canada \) , archie au \( 139 130 4 6 , australia \) , archie funet fi \( 128 214 6 100 , scandinavia \) , archie doc ic ac uk \( 146 169 3 7 , u k continent \) sites index tens thousands files available anonymous ftp login archie \( password needed \) type prog filename find 're looking type help detailed instructions instance would type prog disinfectant search convenient ftp site disinfectant initial search fails turn file want , try variations name instance n't find disinfectant prog disinfectant , might try prog instead searches often hide gold pile avoid many erroneous matches add hqx end , e g prog hqx mac software available net ends hqx almost unix pc software please check archives archie personally asking find particular piece shareware follow advice , almost never ask net find particular piece software someone mail application x \? \( 2 4 \) anyone mail part file comp binaries mac corrupt missed site please refer first questions section find anonymous ftp , archie , automatic e mail servers bin \? hqx \? cpt \? etc \? \( 2 5 \) files available ftp modified twice allow easily pass foreign computer systems first 're compressed make faster download , 're translated either binhex \( hqx \) macbinary \( bin \) format computers digest \( macintosh uses special two fork filing system chokes computers \) binhex files 7 bit ascii text files , macbinary files pure 8 bit binary data must always transferred using binary protocol file translated compressed transmission indicated suffix normally file name something like filename xxx xxx indicates compressed indicates translated use file 've ftp 'd downloaded mac 'll need reverse process files get net require two step decoding process first change binhex \( hqx \) macbinary \( bin \) file double macintosh file decompress programs decode file types covered table also note macintosh telecommunications programs automatically convert macbinary files regular macintosh files downloaded suffix sit cpt hqx bin pit z image dd zip uu tar stuffit 3 0 x x x x x compact pro x x x x x x x x x binhex 5 0 x binhex 4 0 x diskdoubler x x unzip x diskcopy x x x x x notes stuffit family products use several different compression schemes freeware stuffit expander versions stuffit earlier 3 0 \( stuffit 1 5 1 , stuffit classic , , stuffit deluxe 2 0 1 0 \) increasing number files stuffed stuffit 3 0 need get recent version stuffit stuffit expander stuffit 3 0 5 \( lite deluxe \) consistently makes smaller archives macintosh compression utility allow maximum space files various ftp sites keep net bandwidth , please compress files send anonymous ftp sites stuffit 3 0 5 , , handle popular unix formats uuencode \( uu \) , compress \( z \) , tar \( tar \) respectively unix versions often robust mac products , use instead 's option translators allow stuffit lite expand uuencoded tar files also available anonymous ftp dik winter 's package unix utilities decompress files workstation downloading mac since unix stores files differently mac , creates macbinary \( bin \) files automatically converted download ca n't decompress everything particular ca n't decompress new stuffit 3 0 archives \( however , need one two files archive instance want read readme find program need download indispensable found sumex aim info mac unix directory notes compression formats bin macbinary files always use binary file transfer protocol transferring , never ascii text files net stored hqx instead rascal stores files bin format communications programs zterm capable translating macbinary files fly download know advance 'll downloading macbinary files image format normally used system software , line users download files easily converted exact copies installer floppies instead using diskcopy restore images floppies , use steve christensen 's freeware utility treat images hard disk actual floppies inserted floppy drive reputation buggy , blank floppies copy diskcopy handy case sea \( x , x \) sea files n't merit position table 're self extracting may created compact pro , stuffit , even diskdoubler capable double clicked unknown reason chosen use industry standard designation self extracting archives created payware products ! disk space instead append either x x self extracting archives get binhex \? stuffit \? etc \? \( 2 6 \) far easiest way get programs ask human copy onto floppy 're university 's absolutely excuse finding someone give copy 're anywhere less remote sound , chances good someone computer center , dealership , user group provide copy stuffit stuffit \( version \) n't need binhex 're computer geek thought actually asking living , breathing human instead computer terminal something turns quivering mass jelly , probably download working copy stuffit local bulletin board system religious objections software gotten means anonymous ftp , suppose 'll mention fact ftp working copy stuffit though far hardest way get ftp wuarchive wustl edu login type word binary hit return type cd mirrors rascal ics utexas edu compression hit return get stuffit expander 1 0 1 sea bin hit return course 's always possible time read stuffit expander updated name changed fails look something similar 've ftp 'd straight onto mac self extracting archive produce working copy stuffit expander double clicked 've ftp 'd mainframe unix account first , still need use modem program download mac make sure mac receiving macbinary mode mainframe sending binary mode need details last step , consult faq list comp sys mac comm manuals mainframe macintosh telecommunications software get binhex , stuffit , etc pc \? \( 2 7 \) ca n't absolutely way get executable macintosh file ftp site onto pc onto mac without software obtained means anonymous ftp must beg , borrow , steal necessary software binhex stuffit lite another person realize may among n't left parents' basement since got apple ii 1980 , eventually 're going need link human mother \( though suppose 're much nerd could send mother get \) 're gathering nerves venture strange terrifying world daylight , please n't bother net asking question simply way move executable macintosh programs pc non macintosh computer onto mac without software bundled macs troubleshooting \( posting \) things go wrong \( 3 0 \) various faq lists cover lot specific problems , far problems n't covered basic techniques follow asking help probably also perform ten step preventative maintenance routine described section four , especially rebuilding desktop \( 4 3 \) resizing system heap \( 4 5 \) following steps may may solve problem , least make easier others recommend solutions identify problem \( 3 1 \) microsoft word crashing n't say much crashed \? repeat actions lead crash \? information provide actions preceding crash likely someone help precisely 've identified problem actions preceding \( step 1 \) easier tell following steps fix problem example , sometimes 3 0 crashes coprocessor installed error nearly helpful 3 0 crashes link two text boxes master page copies text boxes already contain text former leave wondering whether bug remains given step latter lets go right problem see 's still read read file \( 3 2 \) many companies include list known incompatibilities bugs read files often n't documented manual read read files see problems sound familiar check viruses \( 3 3 \) run disinfectant another anti viral across disk virus infections people think , occur cause sorts weird problems reinstall application support files \( 3 4 \) half dozen reasons \( external magnetic fields , improperly written software , alignment planets \) file disk may contain data 's supposed contain cause types unexplained , unusual behavior restoring original masters normally fix reinstall system software \( 3 5 \) bits even likely get system file application effects disastrous see question 4 6 detailed procedure performing clean reinstall problem continues occur 've taken steps , chances 've found either conflict application software genuine bug program 's time isolate problem \( 3 6 \) need find minimal system problem assert basic steps isolating cause system application crash run one application time occasionally applications conflict problem manifest without applications running simultaneously , begin launching applications find one causes crash b 're running system 6 , turn multifinder 're running system 7 , much memory application afford sometimes programs need memory , especially performing complicated operations c 're running system 7 , turn virtual memory 32 bit addressing 's still awful lot system 7 hostile software including companies really excuse \( say microsoft word 5 1 , boys girls \? knew could \) software expresses incompatibilities certain uncommon actions taken boot virgin system floppy problem disappears likely init conflict need progressively remove extensions problem use little common sense choosing first extensions remove problem occurs try open file , remove inits mess standard file open procedure super first problem remains obvious candidates eliminated , either remove remaining extensions one time , lot , perform binary search removing half extensions time problem disappears add half recently removed set back continue 've narrowed conflict one extension think 've found offending init restart init enabled make sure alone indeed causing problem contact technical support \( 3 7 \) good idea , , conflict occurs tech support number available software , call 're lucky company work around fix available , perhaps 'll least add bug database problems fixed next release preventive maintenance \( 4 0 \) would n't drive car 100 , 000 miles without giving tune computer different regular tune ups avoid lot problems although mac mechanics 'll happy charge 75 equivalent oil change , 's reason ca n't change following nine step program performed every three months trash files \( 4 1 \) many operations follow run faster smoothly free disk space work spend little time cleaning hard disk 're like , 'll find several megabytes worth preferences files applications longer , archives software 've , shareware tried n't like , announcements events come gone many files longer need 're running system 7 may also several megabytes trash alone throw away empty trash rethink extensions \( 4 2 \) macintoshes attract inits like new suit attracts rain seriously consider whether actually need every extension collection n't use functionality extension least every fifth time boot , 're probably better storing system folder takes memory , system , slows every startup instance read pc disks month , 's need keep loaded time cutting back extension habit really help avoid crashes rebuild desktop \( 4 3 \) desktop file database holds information necessary associate file application created lets system know application launched open given file icons display depending size application one representatives desktop file applications files move hard disk , desktop file become bloated corrupt think congress mac every often 's necessary throw bums start clean slate fortunately 's easier rebuild desktop defeat incumbent one warning rebuilding desktop erase comments 've stored get info boxes system 7 maurice 's freeware init retain comments across rebuild also works system 6 apple 's desktop manager extension also installed rebuild desktop restart mac , extensions finish loading , depress command option keys 'll presented dialog box asking want rebuild desktop warning could take minutes click ok take minutes files longer take 're running system 6 may want turn multifinder trying rebuild desktop 're experiencing definite problems preventive maintenance , may want use fifth generation 's freeware init desktop reset desktop reset completely deletes desktop file rebuilding , thus eliminating possibly corrupt data structures zap pram reset clock \( 4 4 \) macs original 128k thin mac quadra 950 contain small amount battery powered ram hold certain settings properly move cpu rather disk disk boot unfortunately parameter ram become corrupted cause unexplained crashes reset system 7 hold command , option , p , r keys restarting mac system 6 hold command , option , shift keys selecting control panel apple menu click yes asked want zap parameter ram since 've erased almost settings general control panel , reset whatever want one setting pram erase date time since internal clock macintosh notoriously inaccurate 'll probably want take opportunity reset anyway resize system heap \( 4 5 \) even rethinking extensions per step two people still least half row icons march across bottom screen every time restart extensions \( applications \) need space section memory called system heap system heap n't big enough comfortably accommodate programs want piece , start playing king mountain system heap , knocking get bigger pieces trying climb back get knocked fighting amongst programs severely degrades system performance almost inevitably crashes mac 're using system 7 , macintosh automatically resize system heap necessary 're running system 6 's important set system heap size large enough manage extensions applications default size set 128k , way small macs extensions system heap size stored normally non boot blocks every system disk bill steinberg 's freeware utility lets resize system heap even checks much memory heap already using tell much needs allocated 're running system 6 , get , use , amazed infrequently macintosh crashes reinstall system software \( 4 6 \) system files become corrupt fragmented , especially 've stored lots fonts desk accessories inside merely updating system software often fix system file corruption recommend clean reinstall 's 1 boot installer floppy system disks 2 copy non standard fonts desk accessories system file temporary 3 trash system file hard disk also trash finder , multifinder , da handler , standard apple extensions like control panel chooser replaced new installation 're running installing system 7 , move everything extensions , control panels , preferences folders top level system folder 4 rename system folder name system folder fine 5 double click installer script system disk choose customize select appropriate software model mac printer could easy install instead , add lot extensions code n't need waste memory disk space 6 installation finished , move everything temporary folder created step 4 new system folder 're asked want replace anything , forgot take something step 3 'll need replace things individually find duplicate piece 7 reinstall fonts da 's removed step 2 8 reboot clean , defragmented system file takes less memory disk space much stable system overall disk utilities \( 4 7 \) much like system files hard disks data structures occasionally become corrupted affecting performance even causing data loss apple includes disk first aid , simple utility detecting repairing hard disk problems , system disks 's also available anonymous ftp ftp apple com directory dts mac sys soft even earlier version , get latest version \( 7 1 \) ftp apple com run hard disks several companies released payware disk utilities detect repair considerably problems disk first aid though , interestingly , none detect repair everything disk first aid three effective general work central point 's mactools deluxe 2 0 , fifth generation 's public , symantec 's norton utilities macintosh 2 0 department work group well disk first aid since none fix everything others individuals mactools \( 48 street \) half price norton \( 94 street \) public utilities \( 98 street \) , features ease use roughly equal , recommend mactools products occasionally encounter problems ca n't fix happens 's time backup \( 4 7 \) reformat \( 4 9 \) backing \( 4 8 \) one part preventative maintenance done lot often every three months simplest back merely copy files hard disk onto floppies removable media keep data files separate application support files 's easy back folders change frequently nonetheless every three months complete backup hard disk number programs available make backing easier apple included basic full backup application system 6 performas apple ships new apple backup utility backup entire disk system folder onto floppies previously mentioned norton utilities mac mactools deluxe 2 0 include powerful floppy backup utilities incorporate compression incremental backups finally 're lucky enough tape drive , network server , removable media device use backups , check powerful payware utilities \( 49 street , n't support tape drives \) pro \( 74 street \) freely available backup utilities old hd backup system 6 disk defragmentation \( 4 9 \) disks fill gets harder harder find enough free space place write large files therefore operating system often split larger files pieces stored different places hard disk files become fragmented performance degrade several ways defragment hard disk tedious cheapest method backup files , erase hard disk \( might well reformat 're see question 4 10 \) , restore files number payware utilities including norton utilities mac mac tools deluxe defragment disk place , e without erasing although ads products brag safety , 've bought software opened shrink wrap warn back disk case something go wrong freeware shareware disk please n't annoy net asking one reformat hard disk \( 4 10 \) floppy disk needs initialized use , hard disk must formatted hold data n't need reformat every three months system crashing matter try , reformatting ultimate means wiping slate clean reformatting hard disk may even gain extra megabytes space hard disks created equal hold data others facilitate mass production advertising without lot \( 81 3 megabytes average formatted capacity mileage may vary \) apple often formats drives lowest common denominator drive capacity reformat 's reason reclaim whatever unused space apple 's left disk unlike floppies hard disks need special program initialize hard disks come formatting software apple 's disks system software ship hd sc setup , minimal disk format apple brand hard drives manufacturers ship appropriate formatting software hard drives normally need reformat hard disk number general purpose also available go beyond bundled software include features like encryption , password protection , multiple , faster disk access , system 7 compatibility , even compression two best payware drive7 hard disk toolkit personal edition \( 49 street either \) one two freeware available , none likely superior ones bundled hard disk powerbook users sure turn sleep processor cycling reformatting hard drives matter software use otherwise disk corruption , crashes , data losses good possibility elliotte rusty harold department mathematics shiva njit edu new jersey institute technology erh0362 tesla njit edu newark , nj
vanover boeing com \( vanover \) subject file sharing magneto \? organization boeing computer services , seattle lines 11 hi ! co worker attached magneto optical drive mac works great however , tried turn file sharing , would n't work message volumes \? \? \? anyone success sharing mos \? , please tell ! vanover atc boeing com
netcom com \( jeff \) subject apple monitor woes keywords monitor organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 distribution na lines 15 3 month old seems acquired jitters late 14 apple color monitor i'm using lciii sort jiggles left right time attempted monitor make sure problem n't interference something else , problem seems remain matter anybody encountered problem \? thanks , jeff \( netcom com \)
da228 cleveland freenet edu \( charles g williams \) subject cache card iisi organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 36 reply da228 cleveland freenet edu \( charles g williams \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu previous article , watson ibm com \( \) says last week , mac 's place applied engineering quicksilver card \( 32k cache , one pds slot , socket fpu \) sale 99 00 \( without fpu \) regular price 199 idea still going , get phone anyone interested \( found ad macuser \) people cache cards please post speedometer numbers get cards one report , seems indicate 32k cache card gives 1 speedup ! ! access memory takes longer cache card \( get miss \) thus small cache card 32k may worth 0 n't know kind numbers 64k cards get also found interesting disable cache cards via software \( read mac iisi tech notes ftp apple com \) 99 good deal , still n't know would say good deal june 's macworld , river \( formerly computer \) advertised daystar 33 mhz powercache 68882 295 ! believe \? know prices would falling , ! thought might interested chuck chuck williams cs intern pacific northwest laboratories da228 cleveland freenet edu cg williams ccmail pnl gov
titus virginia edu \( jason titus \) subject virus \? centris 610 organization u va division disposable resources lines 9 've getting seemingly random disk accesses centris 610 quantum 240 lps , regular recalibration since got sometimes short , sometimes long , accesses sound like read writing going sam 3 5 , disinfectant 3 0 , neither picks anything ideas \? jason titus virginia edu
johnson santafe edu \( george johnson \) subject 13 monitor organization santa fe institute lines 30 nntp posting host santafe x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 several weeks ago , described problem apple high resolution monitor promised summarize replies received e mail occasionally , every two three hours , monitor momentarily loses sync entire raster image bounces eighth inch , rights usually happens right close large window , highlight large area , something radically image screen sometimes , though , happens provocation whatsoever received range replies one extreme man , clearly quite knowledgable monitors , said problem 13 monitor 's power supply simply could n't always keep sudden changes raster image rapid change largely light screen largely dark one monitor 's power supply fix available , said , nothing really wrong \( guess meant flaw fundamental endured \) seemed quite persuasive would tempted adopt attitude , except reply 13 monitor owner discovered problem documented apple service technical procedures , volume 3 , heading correction section describes fix involving replacement capacitor , adjustment , , failing , swap circuit board would grateful discussion among experience sort thing
l h wood lut ac uk subject new duo dock info reply l h wood lut ac uk \( lloyd wood \) organization loughborough university , uk lines 31 article 1993apr20 pasteur berkeley edu cory berkeley edu \( gordon \) writes article c558172 mizzou1 missouri edu , c558172 mizzou1 missouri edu writes little known fact macs cpu connected via cellular network cray supercomputer apple 's garage \( 's right one steve steve built apple \) shannon silly n't know division apple allowed use cray legal department \? gordon um 've sold cray realised spending two years finite stress analysis figures complex injection molded cases way go , holding development work especially first model portable left battery cover , 's portable three years late designing metal cases easier 're managing calculator da , compute 45 100 0 45 correctly suggestions \? l
squish endor uucp \( shishin yamada \) subject sony reliability \( pb100 durability \) organization aiken computation lab , harvard university lines 46 article 1993apr15 waikato ac nz ldo waikato ac nz \( lawrence d'oliveiro , waikato university \) writes article 1993apr13 1097 csus edu , altheimm nextnet csus edu \( murray altheim \) writes point \) sony manufacture powerbook 100 license apple actually works ! yup , bought darn thing cause sturdy carry around \( unless consider papers files folders \) \( shoulder strap little job eddie bauer \) 've travelled cross country several times walkman , tapes , books computer piled pb100 works happily , i'm typing right global village teleport 9600 v 32 internal send receive fax modem , love unfortunately , seen new duo 230 friend bought primary computer \( mac iisi primary home computers , quadra iici work lab \) amazed , kinda shocked screen i'm sure 'd break real easy \( sorry , trinitron , everything else 've ever bought sony failed keep trying \? i'm \) aw , c'mon 've got sony vcr , sony tv \( must two years old \) , sony camcorder \( five months old \? \) , course apple 13 rgb monitor sony tube i'm never going part cd 300i drive month old centris 650 fact sony maybe 's question personal compatibility maybe body puts wrong polarity static electricity , something \) geez , sony neighbor works hates \( always asks n't buy products \) nice guy nevertheless still two working sony color 1972 1974 older one 's second picture tube , work 're relegated old 8 bit atari computer atari 2600 game , well old younger sister 's nintendo game machine sony n't make tv 's like used though , newer mexican assembly line tv 's reliable sharp anymore dad also got 35 direct view sony \( god , thing weighs ton ! \) \) still , would without , cd players , veritable walkman \? \? \? \? shishin squish yamada squish endor harvard edu
cf947 cleveland freenet edu \( chun hung wan \) subject price cuts organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 10 reply cf947 cleveland freenet edu \( chun hung wan \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu heard magic date price drop number apple products june 30th anyone second rumour \? motion picture major brooks institute photography , ca santa barbara foreign student kuala lumpur , malaysia mind forerunner states
cf947 cleveland freenet edu \( chun hung wan \) subject price drops organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 8 reply cf947 cleveland freenet edu \( chun hung wan \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu heard apple price drop coming june 30th anyone second rumour \? motion picture major brooks institute photography , ca santa barbara foreign student kuala lumpur , malaysia mind forerunner states
squish endor uucp \( shishin yamada \) subject selling powerbook 100s organization aiken computation lab , harvard university lines 54 article 1993apr21 csus edu altheimm nextnet csus edu \( murray altheim \) writes article senator bedfellow mit edu cam athena mit edu \( daniel cameron daly \) writes pb 100 might selling soon upgrade duo graduation , take advantage educational discount recently bought sold pb 100 , kind price get \? info config pb100 appreciated thanks cam daly cam , several months ago bought 4 40 pb100 external floppy , appletalk remote access , kensington case ac adapter complete documentation almost new condition , used us 900 considered good buy cosy little baby \) murray put pb100 4 20 ext floppy , appletalk remote , ac adapter , fresh box \( used , buyer switched 140 arrival sold unopened box purchased last october 925 later bought used v 32 9600 bps internal fax modem something like 225 , i'm using right ! works great ! \) real complaints love portable system \( got color home setup also mac ii \) reasoning programs school simulations dynamic control systems sometimes took hours \( overnight \) run , tying mac ii got pb100 fast modem light work run stuff figured 'd give little sister next year goes college 's running system 7 1 without problems also sometimes terminal university 's vax vms \( nice thing benchmarks average 230 times faster mac iifx \) , pb100 graphical output terminal emulation \( hard \) fabulous setup ! ! ! ! \) ! ! ! \( way , software class accounts also ta class used site license take home , destroy later site release licenses pirating , 're wondering great program ! ! ! \) like add , whatever future system get , almost never get enuff memory buy 's cheap buy get computer since 's usually cheaper upgrading always run disk space syquest mac iisi , never worried space got several carts \) shishin squish yamada squish endor harvard edu
rz tu de \( joerg \) subject cache problems summary system crash caused programs active keywords cache lines 9 hi mac fans , problems new quadra 700 several programs \( mathematica 2 1 , module \) causes active anyone list programs compatible \? anyone hints use quadras \? thanks joerg
snyder jsc nasa gov \( russ snyder \) subject fast \( apple fpu \) \? organization nasa jsc distribution usa lines 6 maximum rate fpu apple sells directly \( apple part \) \? apple literature labels fpu classics lc iii 's assume least 25mhz question put performa 600 \( 68030 32mhz \) \? apple price cheap 78 compared 135 mail order houses one know answer one \?
ccu umanitoba ca \( charles carlson \) subject 's needed cd rom mac \? nntp posting host cc umanitoba ca organization university manitoba , winnipeg , canada lines 17 system 7 x support scsi cd rom drives \? specific drivers needed different make model \? specifically , i'm looking getting nec cdr 25 , mainly cheap know slow drive , multimedia n't interest mainly want extracting software distributed cd need get specific driver use drive mac \? thanks charles charles carlson ccu umanitoba ca warning article contains flammable material may ignite without prior notice read protective
jon cps msu edu subject video cards duodock \? organization kbs lab , comp sci dept , mich state university lines 19 distribution world nntp posting host triton cps msu edu x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d17 x xxmessage id triton cps msu edu x xxdate wed , 21 apr 93 14 47 15 gmt got duodock , quite happy except need use dock \) two page grey scale monitor \( apple \) b \) two page color monitor \( apple \) net wisdom vendor video card would preferable \? thanks advance jon jon tele 517 353 ai kbs lab comp sci dept fax 517 336 1061 wells hall office eng bldg michigan state university east lansing , mi 1027 home tele 517 337
magnus acs ohio state edu subject x86 680x0 , compare \? \( also amiga \) organization ohio state university x mailer elm version 2 3 lines 50 david schnider bmug org wrote real question opinion motorola processors running sy stem 7 mac comparable intel processors running windows pc \? stuff deleted david even better 68000 based amiga 2000 perform daily tasks compared 68030 based iici answer , except cases , get butt kicked amiga sure considerations , goes show proper design beginning \( hardware software \) give great returns well showing n't marketing department speak , one care good system 've experience actually love mac interface number features , sorely speed use macs daily consultant osu statistics department i'm familiar almost every model , experience amiga atari st simply blow mac water terms performance time would general say advantages mac outweigh advantages amiga st \( falcon \) , really wish apple would get heads together speed \( \( \( \( \( could take real lesson tasking amiga os atari \( \( \( i'm still happy ci , n't understand performance bad \( comparatively \) could done multi tasking properly could done everthing else better apple n't \( course dos 6 windows 3 1 write home either ! ! \) hope someone comes machine everything well someday choice , would go mac aspects , add speed superior multi tasking platforms original topic trying compare chip machine seems almost worthless fast 386 bang graphics accelerator faster productivity many applications even stock quadra add graphics accelerator 486 really fly course , add one quadra 're blowing 486 away etc oh well , y'all got 2 00 worth price 0 02 think mine worth 0 01 ! david butler magnus acs ohio state edu novel tossed away lightly thrown great force dorothy parker
ch subject radius pivot le card 32bit adressing organization university st , switzerland lines 20 hello ! mac iisi runs radius pivot le monitor , pds card wanted try switch 32 bit adressing , could n't startup mac anymore 1 trick zap pram \( wo n't take battery next time \) 2 trick could allow switch 32bit \? 3 32bit adressing bring user \? faster work \? 4 chance 8mb memory 24bit adressing \? thank lot answers \( via mail reply \) ralph , university st , switzerland
dtc uucp \( dennis cheung \) subject mac lc 3 organization network , long island , new york lines 15 anyone know macintosh lc pin 7 \( pin enables better flow control \) \? know lc 1 2 n't , 3 \? conflicting reports far please help thank \( btw , use 's \? yes \? e mail ! \) via uci v1 35 \( c net amiga \) dennis cheung dtc \( tm \) corporation america america online dtc internet dtc com disclaimer never read message message n't exist
informatik uni dortmund de \( weber \) subject accelerator lc ii \( info needed \) organization cs department , dortmund university , germany lines 8 distribution world nntp posting host informatik uni dortmund de hi folks , subject line says accelerators recommend mac lc ii \? sorry , faq cheers !
organization ministry education , computer center netnews system v2 3 twnmoe10 bitnet subject mac ii vi discontinued good buy \? lines 15 local dealer offering mac ii vi machines equipped kodak multi session compatible cd rom drives seems like attractive price 1500 've used many models ii ci , would first could mac safe buy discontinued model 'd like cd rom drive , put housing share pc feasible \? info ii vi relatively slow \( 16mhz \) , 68030 chip math coprocessor want add non apple portrait monitor use machine hypercard stack design good buy , would wasting money \? would appreciate advice thanks ! robert matthews twnmoe10 bitnet edu tw \( taiwan \)
chopin udel edu \( \) subject 25mhz iisi nntp posting host chopin udel edu organization university delaware lines 17 methods attaching heat sink processor go radio shack buy tube heat sink compound comes little blue white tube black screw cap radio shack , 's catalog number 276 's mix silicone zinc oxide , conducts heat well plus , 's tacky usually , would smear bit chip sink , bolt clamp sink , n't move mac , gravity goo hold things place make sure remember 's , case tilt mac jar hard enough shake loose would n't want loose piece metal running around inside mac
bill dcs glasgow ac uk \( \( super \) bill russell \) subject important se 30 users organization glasgow university computing science dept lines 23 problems bunch se 30 's one labs fault machines either bomb freeze attempting write internal floppies internal floppies tested fine , means main board fault machines come batch date code back machines december 1990 1 machine batch 2 user experience fault 3 warranty repair feedback would appreciated post results net bill mail william russell , computing science dept , tel \( 041 \) 339 glasgow univ , 17 gardens , glasgow , uk arpa bill dcs glasgow ac uk nsfnet relay ac uk usenet bill dcs glasgow uucp janet bill uk ac glasgow dcs mcsun ! ukc ! dcs glasgow ac uk ! bill
richs aplcomm jhuapl edu \( rich spiegel \) subject cache card iisi reply richs aplcomm jhuapl edu \( rich spiegel \) organization jhu apl lines 27 article usenet ins cwru edu , da228 cleveland freenet edu \( charles g williams \) writes 99 good deal , still n't know would say good deal june 's macworld , river \( formerly computer \) advertised daystar 33 mhz powercache 68882 295 ! believe \? know prices would falling , ! actually , 295 33 mhz powercard , universal powercache 33 mhz universal powercache fpu adaptor 500 \( still bad deal \) believe powercard one generation older universal powercache , one primary difference powercard machine specific powercache fit many macs proper adaptor cards 68030 based i'm sure hardware software powercard otherwise different powercache \( perhaps someone could enlighten \? \) would also add called river computer night going fast rich spiegel mission analysis group johns hopkins road laurel , md \( 301 \) 953 5000 ,
buzz apple com \( steve bollinger \) subject stereo sound problem \( \? \) mac games organization apple computer , inc lines 68 article ingemar isy ingemar , ingemar isy liu se writes enter game developers sound driver current sound manager lame making games sound driver pretty ok , since 's fast sound manager used book useless sound channels soon sound completed question games smooth animation \( 's slow \) would dispose channel going play sounds soon \? trying write game , n't using instead , make channel use play sounds works great add callbacks channel also let know channel getting empty gets empty sound driver much sound manager unfortunately , system 7 supports poorly , making programs crash occasionally moral story developers cheat ! well , want code work old systems n't know sys 7 1 , least 6 0 7 , bugs sound manager causes channels hang \( error message \) keep channel open long periods necessary performance play many sounds , stopping sounds halfway callbacks seems reliable way safely tell sound stopped playing inspect private variables channel \( , think \) , way found tell channel hung inspect undocumented flag modify callbacks reliable , found 100 reliable , even system 4 1 continuous background sound interrupting sound effects system 6 0 im v documentation probably callback commands channels , course n't get called general , problems sounds working play one per channel close channel \( related slowdown \) , play one n't work , adding one synthesizer channel , possibly one multiple times might calling channel sound resource adds sampled sound synthesizer channel first thing plays sampled sounds command start need resedit sound remove command , create channel , specify sampled sound synthesizer channel 's synth use asynch 's want 'll probably want switch 's , since going use anyway add callbacks go ahead tell full , sound manager n't work games , remember , spectre uses works great spectre spare cpu time , one little disclaimer say sound manager iisi ca n't made work right i'm sure either way , know sure make sounds work 100 correctly every machine using sound manager steve
ross ucsb edu \( richard ross \) subject running mathematica pb160 \? keywords mathematica , powerbook lines 15 's another question hesitant powerbook purchaser want able run mathematica would like hear comments gallery much slower program run machine without fpu \( namely pb160 \) versus machine fpu \( namely pb170 \) types calculations get primarily due moderately simple algebra , dealt plotting including 3 plots n't lot numerical work would pb160 lot memory \( nice video port \) sufficient really try get fpu type work \? pb170 8mb faster pb160 12 16mb comments appreciated please respond email ross physics ucsb edu
paryavi matt ksu ksu edu \( saiid paryavi \) subject centris 610 25mhz 33mhz \? \? \? organization kansas state university lines 15 nntp posting host matt ksu ksu edu summary possible \? keywords centris put 33mhz 040 cpu centris 610 math coprocessor , possible speed centris run either 25mhz 33mhz \? \? n't see oscillators motherboard like ones iisi 's motherboard ! oscillator centris \? ideas \? thanks saiid paryavi paryavi matt ksu ksu edu saiid cis ksu edu
carsona fraser sfu ca \( debra carson \) subject \( q \) monitor service \? keywords service monitor mac help organization simon fraser university , burnaby , b c , canada lines 25 recall anyone suggest problem picture jumps inch direction \? two page monitor connected accelerator video board se end work day , several hours power , picture occasionally couple times remain calm minutes shaking environment around computer appears stable nothing newly introduced near computer ideas \? please e mail carsona sfu ca reply also anyone used two page powerbook video \? required \? cable adapter \? thanks help ! dale carsona sfu ca ps think monitor zenith mechanism
eric cronin n2240 z1 fidonet org \( eric cronin \) subject phonenet questions organization fidonet node 1 2240 174 association mac bbs , grand blanc mi lines 21 school g new network macs apple ii 's i'm used ethernet , n't know mu ch localtalk two things first , , network connectors , caption leads bel plug phone lines building work true \? 've seen done running sep phone cords , never real lines second , work , could use modem hooked line network active \? help would greatly appriciated btw running seperate phone line question , network wil verry spread bringing kind word helpful spirit wherever , association multi line macintosh bbs grand blanc , michigan ! echoes fido , internet , , , k 12 plus 2gb files 313 695 hst v 32bis testify 2 0 eric cronin internet eric cronin n2240 z1 fidonet org
nevai mps ohio state edu \( paul nevai \) subject monitors kept 24 hours day \? \? \? organization department mathematics , ohio state university lines 9 distribution world reply osu edu nntp posting host ops mps ohio state edu originator nevai ops mps ohio state edu yes , know computers harddisk drives always monitors \? generate lots heat n't keep 24 hours day \? advice \? thanks take care paul paul nevai nevai mps ohio state edu dept math ohio state university 1 614 292 3317 \( office \) columbus , ohio 43210 1174 , u 1 614 292 1479 \( math dept fax \)
paryavi matt ksu ksu edu \( saiid paryavi \) subject carrying case centris 610 \? organization kansas state university lines 8 distribution world nntp posting host matt ksu ksu edu anyone know carrying case centris 610 \? thanks info saiid paryavi paryavi matt ksu ksu edu saiid cis ksu edu
drlovemd jhunix hcf jhu edu \( steve liu \) subject monitors kept 24 hours day \? \? \? organization homewood academic computing , johns hopkins university , baltimore , md , usa lines 33 distribution world nntp posting host jhunix hcf jhu edu article 1r3jl5 igh function mps ohio state edu osu edu writes yes , know computers harddisk drives always monitors \? generate lots heat n't keep 24 hours day \? advice \? thanks take care paul paul nevai nevai mps ohio state edu dept math ohio state university 1 614 292 3317 \( office \) columbus , ohio 43210 1174 , u 1 614 292 1479 \( math dept fax \) keep 13 apple trinitron iisi months time n't seem cause problems tttttt eeeee vv vv eeeee tt ee vv vv ee tt eeee vv vv eeee steve liu tt ee vvv ee drlovemd jhunix hcf jhu edu tt eeeee v eeeee drlovemd jhuvms hcf jhu edu
tthiel cs uiuc edu \( terry thiel \) subject datadesk keyboard centris fix organization university illinois , dept comp sci , urbana , il lines 13 posted problem datadesk 101e keyboard failed rebuild desktop command option keys pressed shut inits pressing shift key absolutely help datadesk called macconnection tech support tried centris 610 problem immediately offered get new keyboard , try centris ship overnight worked could send keyboard back got one worked guy tech support named dave turns keyboard wait smiley face pressing shift key disable inits wait inits start appearing rebuild desktop pressing command option really like keyboard glad able keep hand , tech support sucks macconnection 's great ! terry
pebi aem umn edu \( peter bidian \) subject duo price reduction \? nntp posting host aem umn edu organization university minnesota lines 17 cam athena mit edu \( daniel cameron daly \) writes someone mentioned ago duos scheduled 10 18 price reduction , according 'newsbytes' definite \? anyone know take effect \? 'newsbytes' \? thanks hi , posted article unfortunately n't seen notice cheaper duo 's u next according articel though , price cut effective day group news like clarinet peter
connie acpub duke edu \( connie \) subject tempest cyclone info needed lines 38 nntp posting host ac duke edu attempt made authenticate sender 's name anyone information upcoming new computers \( cyclone tempest \) , need info anything would greatly appreciated shawn wkuvx1 bitnet according macweek 2 22 93 cyclone come metal case quadra 800 , tempest share low case centris 610 apple offer miniature video camera mounted user 's monitor moved end cable take pictures objects documents taking advantage 32 bit digital signal processor \( dsp \) built logic boards , camera able put image measuring 360 288 pixels , 256 gray levels , screen users able install supplementary lenses record detail fine wire bonds integrated circuit camera expected cost 150 250 systems ship software needed put apple 's casper voice recognition technology work users apparently purchase operational high fidelity microphone two models talk well listen new system facility called speech manager convert text strings sent applications pass speech synthesizer cyclone include 40mhz '040 , three nubus slots support 128mb ram tempest use 25mhz lc040 , lacking fpu , hold ram single slot require nubus adapter room 7 inch nubus cards users able update tempest 's process cyclone 's get 02 22 93 issue macweek
woody praxis co uk \( paul \) subject help fdhd failure iicx organization praxis , bath , u k lines 60 repost due net problems hi , problems fdhd iicx ekg reports rom revision 376 reports mac trouble formatting disks time got , fdhd would respond although functions fine checked voltages external drive connector pin 6 showed volts 7 8 giving unloaded power supply sent away repair power supply reinstalled , get following error internal fdhd connected , mac boots fine completion boot cycle alert displays disk unreadable want eject \? every combination response , alert reappears within approx 2 seconds error continuous fdhd spin head seeking fdhd incapable ejecting disk error sequence occurs regardless whether floppy drive pin 6 external connector shows 1 2v , pins 7 8 show 10 75v internal fdhd disconnected , mac boots fine works great \( reports errors \) external connector shows voltage pin 6 pins 7 8 show 10 75v , internal fdhd may , apple 800k external drive gives exactly symptoms internal drive connected either external internal connector \( suitable surgery external drive \) voltages \( internal fdhd disconnected \) follows pin volts pin volts 1 2 5 3 4 5 5 6 5 7 8 9 10 5 11 12 13 10 75 14 5 15 10 75 16 5 17 10 75 18 19 10 75 20 5 machine swim n't think ekg tests tested diodes pica fuses find problems anybody ideas \? best wishes , woody paul praxis plc , software engineering company ross , 20 street , bath , , uk tel 44 225 fax 44 225 woody praxis co uk
slang bnr ca \( steven langlois \) subject number applied engineering reply slang bnr ca \( steven langlois \) organization bell northern research ltd lines 5 anyone phone number applied engineering give call \? steven langlois slang bnr ca
michael hecht michael hecht mac sas com subject change default paper cassette lw pro 630 \? x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d20 x xxdate wed , 21 apr 93 15 01 39 gmt x xxmessage id mac sas com nntp posting host mac sas com organization sas institute inc lines 14 hi ! want change default paper cassette laserwriter pro 630 250 sheet cassette 500 sheet cassette right , change manually print dialog time print forget , document printed letterhead paper 250 sheet cassette ideas \? michael michael p hecht internet michael hecht mac sas com sas institute inc cary , nc usa applelink sas hecht
labs tek com \( ken \) subject 25mhz iisi organization tektronix lines 17 x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d17 x xxdate wed , 21 apr 93 14 12 00 gmt article willamette edu thomas herzog , willamette edu writes finally decided risk upgrade , faq hand 've gathered pieces together problem n't able find anyone 's even heard thermal tape glue \( faq recommends attaching heat sink \) tempted use duct tape anyone ideas attaching heat sink processor \? \? much thanks use thin film epoxy ! epoxy conducts heat fairly well heat sink gets warm prove looked stuff local ee jocks said use epoxy fun ken
staff tc umn edu \( \) subject fast modems slow macs nntp posting host staff tc umn edu organization university minnesota lines 1
ucsd edu \( bjorn karlsson \) subject wanted card lines 11 nntp posting host ucsd edu wanted card mac email one sale thanks
qman casbah acns nwu edu \( charlie kuehmann \) subject monitors kept 24 hours day \? \? \? nntp posting host ironman ms nwu edu organization northwestern university lines 37 article austin ibm com , kelleyb austin ibm com \( kelley boylan \) wrote yes , know computers harddisk drives always monitors \? generate lots heat n't keep 24 hours day \? advice \? thanks take care paul empirical evidence support first statement true , power surge startup potential damage , internal power supply well protected \( 've turned mac six seven times day three years without problem \) monitor leave waste lot electricity twice much television , possibly turn 're using 'll save money world resources problem turing computer constantly due power surge start due thermal fatigue turn computer , heats , everything expands turn , cools , everything contracts limited number cycles component take fails modern electronics much robust respect fact portable computers designed mind since sleep function extends battery life also greatly number thermal cycles occur rule thumb , going use computer \( includes monitor \) next 4 6 hours , turn \( always dim monitor use prolong life phosphor \) tend think pace technical innovation computer industry much less concerned fatigue life equipment concerned long particular architecture supported hardware software vendors \) charles kuehmann northwestern university steel research group
jerry slack med upenn edu \( jerry salem \) subject extra monitors organization university pennsylvania lines 20 nntp posting host med upenn edu hi netters home computer humble 12 color monitor majority work writing , therefore would love b w portrait lc however , sometimes need color monitor question good \( cheap \) way hook two monitors lc anyone done , like \? please respond directly thanks time , hope talk anyone soon ! jerry salem jerry slack med upenn edu
mv com \( \) subject thanks lines 10 sorry personal replies sent help got eaten mail program \( fault \) , 'd like thank everyone sent info ! origin leo technology \( 603 \) 432 432 \( hst v32 \) \( 1 132 189 \)
ns111310 lance colostate edu \( nathaniel sammons \) subject price drop c650 within nntp posting host casco lance colostate edu organization colorado state u engineering college lines 40 article 75 uupcb hal9k ann arbor mi us barry davis hal9k ann arbor mi us \( barry davis \) writes ns negotiated ns good deal supplier c650 8 80 would like jump , ns , , n't want price drop btw , deal ns c650 8 80 mouse anyone know better ns deal \? n't know better deal , would willing share deal rest us certainly sounds like 're getting great deal 'd interested deal deluxe 1 best price performance ! pipeline atlanta , ga echo mail around world ok , post comes , people stop sending email asking negotiated deal \? \) deal international computer networking ca \( saw ad int back macworld macuser \) phone number 310 441 deal may changed since weeks ago , since change prices every ten minutes \) alas , funny system , sounds like good deal , centris 650 , 4mb \( motherboard \) 4mb simm , 80mb hd , ethernet coprocessor \( well , actually 's 68lc040 instead 68rc040 , 'just say keep people saying thing '040 without coprocessor , since fpu built chip \) ok , ya , , would wait untill cyclones come buy quadra 800 \) nate hate quotations message brought tell know nate sammons , number 42 ralph waldo emerson ns111310 longs lance colostate edu
uxa cso uiuc edu \( alex \) subject quicktime resolution \? organization university illinois urbana lines 8 anyone happen know max resolution quicktime \? i'm trying determine maxed system using quicktime could produce edit broadcast quality video \( including bringing video via video spigot etc \) far yet see anything 's even close vhs quicktime , 'd great hear 's possible thanks help , alex
smashman leland stanford edu \( adam samuel nash \) subject want macweek organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa lines 6 get subscription macweek want one , n't seem able find subscription card anywhere email smashman leland stanford edu
david tsai andrew cmu edu subject c610 tempest \? organization senior , social decision sciences , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 5 nntp posting host po4 andrew cmu edu going possible upgrade c610 tempest \? , motherboard switch \? probably gonna expensive right \? dt
schroede cps msu edu \( kris schroeder \) subject scanner printing quality organization dept comp sci , michigan state university lines 20 distribution world nntp posting host pleiades cps msu edu originator schroede pleiades cps msu edu received color scanner lab however , trouble getting reasonable scanned output printing scanned photo laserwriter iig tried scanning higher resolution display screen appears nice however , printed version coming ugly ! due resolution capabilities printer \? tricks involved get better quality \? getting something \( like photoshop \) pretty image \? appreciate suggestions thanks advance , kris kris schroeder schroede cps msu edu ai kbs lab , michigan state university
lclark edu \( jonathan \) subject cache card iisi article lclark 1993apr21 organization lewis clark college , portland lines 36 article netnews jhuapl edu richs aplcomm jhuapl edu \( rich spiegel \) writes article usenet ins cwru edu , da228 cleveland freenet edu \( charles g williams \) writes 99 good deal , still n't know would say good deal june 's macworld , river \( formerly computer \) advertised daystar 33 mhz powercache 68882 295 ! believe \? know prices would falling , ! actually , 295 33 mhz powercard , universal powercache 33 mhz universal powercache fpu adaptor 500 \( still bad deal \) believe powercard one generation older universal powercache , one primary difference powercard machine specific powercache fit many macs proper adaptor cards 68030 based i'm sure hardware software powercard otherwise different powercache \( perhaps someone could enlighten \? \) would also add called river computer night going fast rich spiegel mission analysis group johns hopkins road laurel , md \( 301 \) 953 5000 , side note , ad \( macworld 6 93 \) , selling 50mhz powercache iisi fpu 575 thinking upgrading 040 33 mhz turbo \( upgrade costs 600 direct daystar \) , comes , 200 cheaper mail order companies charge jon
alleg edu \( jim \) subject monitors kept 24 hours day \? \? \? organization allegheny college article 1r3jl5 igh function mps ohio state edu nevai mps ohio state edu \( paul nevai \) writes yes , know computers harddisk drives always monitors \? generate lots heat n't keep 24 hours day \? advice \? thanks take care paul paul nevai nevai mps ohio state edu dept math ohio state university 1 614 292 3317 \( office \) columbus , ohio 43210 1174 , u 1 614 292 1479 \( math dept fax \) actually , thought macs restarted day jim \( alleg edu \) sometimes ya gotta grab 're life teeth anymore , 're riding ! hard ren weird al
kevin boyce boyce gsfc nasa gov subject using setwutime \( \) pb170 x xxmessage id sofa gsfc nasa gov x xxdate wed , 21 apr 93 18 59 23 gmt organization nasa gsfc x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d20 lines 15 article world std com andrew e page , aep world std com writes one way tell go open powerbook control panel \( 7 1 \) setting allows set time wake mac present open control panel , assume setwutime work gee , nice tell us like , gestalt response bit selector \? well , least know n't work \( assume 'm using pb 145 \) kevin boyce gsfc nasa gov whoosh \? \( pepsi \? \)
hades coos dartmouth edu \( brian v hughes \) subject desi pb upgrade reply hades dartmouth edu organization dartmouth college , hanover , nh disclaimer personally , really n't care think speak moderator rec arts comics info lines 14 david schnider bmug org writes anyone know exactly digital eclipse upgrades \? someone suggesting chips may able perform 33mhz true , , desi deal \? would believe letter macweek week one hardware types digital eclipse says run tests components see perform upgraded speed desi replaces ones hades
hades coos dartmouth edu \( brian v hughes \) subject rumours new duos ! ! ! ! ! reply hades dartmouth edu organization dartmouth college , hanover , nh disclaimer personally , really n't care think speak moderator rec arts comics info lines 9 bredell tdb uu se \( mats bredell \) writes official paper got apple new docking station , apple called duodock plus paper \? 's price list dartmouth since released never called duodock plus hades
smashman leland stanford edu \( adam samuel nash \) subject organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa lines 10 light 100 letter lisa thought 'd start new one iivx \? hear machine main 040 line 6 mos , used obsolete tech rumor several sold iivx owners whose bunch , joke really , i'm tired repetitive nature type dialog plus , flaming stress relief
drg biomath mda uth tmc edu \( david gutierrez \) subject lc ii slowdowns \? organization univ texas anderson cancer center lines 20 distribution world nntp posting host ratatosk mda uth tmc edu article tfsquad mn org douce tfsquad mn org \( andrew geweke \) writes currently managing , among many labs , lab three lc iis , mac plus 45 mb external hd , laserwriter ii ntx problem \? lc iis seem intermittently slow snail 's pace happens intermittently macs department , ranging iisi 's quadra 950 end slowdown immediately unplugging ethernet cable mac seems something network puts packet storms every days storms effect making macs slow crawl david gutierrez drg biomath mda uth tmc edu fools positive moe howard
l sanders larc nasa gov \( lyle sanders \) subject stylewriter vs ii organization nasa langley research center , hampton , va usa lines 23 distribution world nntp posting host advise larc nasa gov keywords stylewriter printer anyone know differences stylewriter stylewriter ii \? please respond via e mail l sanders larc nasa gov thanks lyle sanders l sanders larc nasa gov unisys government systems inc \( 128 155 4 44 \) mail stop 157 b \( 804 \) 864 voice nasa langley research center \( 804 \) 864 fax hampton , va 23681 0001 feel obliged believe god endowed us sense , reason intellect intended us forgo use galileo
hades coos dartmouth edu \( brian v hughes \) subject monitors kept 24 hours day \? \? \? reply hades dartmouth edu organization dartmouth college , hanover , nh disclaimer personally , really n't care think speak moderator rec arts comics info lines 25 alleg edu \( jim \) writes nevai mps ohio state edu \( paul nevai \) writes yes , know computers harddisk drives always monitors \? generate lots heat n't keep 24 hours day \? advice \? well monitor consistently largest power drain electric bill looking computer set , especially large \( 16 greater \) color monitor generally leave mac time , except occasional crash , turn monitor night leave office also turn dark , since reason screen saver running picture monitor 's tube actually , thought macs restarted day really \? makes think \? q700 file server office last 2 months , straight , n't problems \( note also keep monitor file server turned i'm actually working server \) hades
ccw nosubdomain nodomain \( christopher wood \) subject apple li organization bellcore , livingston , nj lines 14 article 75 uupcb hal9k ann arbor mi us , barry davis hal9k ann arbor mi us \( barry davis \) writes lisa originally introduced 1980 '81 , forget , sold 9995 2 floppy drives 1mb memory n't well grin close , cigar lisa introduced january , 1983 \( time apple e \) 'll check see hard drive came bundled 10k floppy drives 5 25 initially \( infamous drives \) chris wood bellcore ccw ctt bellcore com
ossip cs tu berlin de \( ossip kaehr \) subject se 30 8bit card work 20mb organization technical university berlin , germany lines 27 nntp posting host cs tu berlin de mime version 1 0 content type text plain charset iso 8859 1 content transfer encoding 8bit summary help ! keywords se 30 mode32 system7 pds hello ! se 30 generation systems 8bit pds card 17 screen worked great upgraded 5 20 mb ram sys7 1 mode32 boot tech support person said card support 32bit fixes pressing shift key booting \( ext monitor goes black grey \) system sometimes boots properly ! ! works ok 20mb full graphics 's happening \? \? \? thanks lot advice ! ! ! please answer mail ossip kaehr ossip cs tu berlin de voice 49 30 ossip kaehr 32 1000 berlin 44 germany tel 49 30 email ossip cs tu berlin de
pw4963 eve albany edu \( peter g white \) subject monitors kept 24 hours day \? \? \? organization state university new york albany lines 14 article 1r3jl5 igh function mps ohio state edu osu edu writes yes , know computers harddisk drives always true \? thought disputed peter peter white internet pw4963 albany edu state univ new york albany bitnet pw4963 albnyvms
willamette edu \( thomas herzog \) subject 25mhz iisi article organization willamette university , salem lines 10 finally decided risk upgrade , faq hand 've gathered pieces together problem n't able find anyone 's even heard thermal tape glue \( faq recommends attaching heat sink \) tempted use duct tape anyone ideas attaching heat sink processor \? \? much thanks tom willamette edu
ianf random se \( ian feldman \) distribution world organization random design opinions , cheaply x note first mac browser , structure enhanced ascii text x format sumex aim stanford edu info mac app easy view 22 hqx organization random design opinions , cheaply lines 34 summary mail answers 'll post summary subject inexpensive frame grabbers 68000 macs \? pc news \? ' mac se fit ' tv ' classic v ' 68000 ' frame video ' ' grabber mac board vision know several nubus frame grabber boards wonder might similar ones lesser macs \( without slots \) , something permitting instant freezing video picture \( pal \) feeding without simple digitizer like \( takes 22 secs scan picture , frame grabber necessity \) objective 512 342 pixel \( b w \) pictures stored hypercard tried using top quality vcr freeze frame function screens come full streaks garbage please reply ianf random se 'll summarize net \( cannot read high volume group c h \) thanks ! ian hit \( r \) feldman ianf random se
desire wright edu subject sad mac code 0f0064 \? \? \? organization wright state university lines 10 hello proud new owner mac 512k upon power insertion sytem disk , get sad mac code 0f0064 anyone give clue means \? thanks steve
kelleyb austin ibm com \( kelley boylan \) subject monitors kept 24 hours day \? \? \? originator kelleyb kelleyb austin ibm com reply kelleyb austin ibm com organization ibm austin , powerpc lines 21 yes , know computers harddisk drives always monitors \? generate lots heat n't keep 24 hours day \? advice \? thanks take care paul empirical evidence support first statement true , power surge startup potential damage , internal power supply well protected \( 've turned mac six seven times day three years without problem \) monitor leave waste lot electricity twice much television , possibly turn 're using 'll save money world resources kelley thomas kelley boylan , powerpc , ibm austin , kelleyb austin ibm com buy pay opinions
grads otago ac nz subject pb 160 extended keyboard \? lines 17 nntp posting host otago ac nz organization university otago , dunedin , new zealand hello , saw question posted week ago , far could tell answer appeared net good oil connecting apple extended keyboard powerbook \? earlier would much load pb want connect beast curious n't got pb yet ca n't rtfm assume standard keyboard mouse would ok spec sheet read mentioned connecting external keyboard extended plus mouse pushing \? help gratefully recieved summarise net necessary thanks , john collins p thinking pb160 assume would apply pb 's
colorado edu subject tempest cyclone info needed lines 10 nntp posting host gold colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 10 article news duke edu , connie acpub duke edu \( connie \) writes two models talk well listen new system facility called speech manager convert text strings sent applications pass speech synthesizer make perfect apple ought run right license voice certain mrs speech synthesizer scott
bob advtech uswest com \( bob brown \) subject se accelerator nntp posting host advtech uswest com organization uswest advanced technologies lines 9 i'm trying find information accelerator boards se anyone used past , especially extreme systems , \? i'm looking board support extended video , especially radius 's two page monitor anyone used virtual conjunction board \? software \? stats anywhere speed difference board fpu one without \? please send mail directly thanks bob brown
narain ih nxt09 cso uiuc edu \( nizam arain \) subject extra monitors reply narain uiuc edu organization university illinois urbana lines 20 jerry salem writes good \( cheap \) way hook two monitors lc anyone done , like \? jerry slack med upenn edu way would add video card lc expansion port n't expensive several companies portrait monitor video card available check current macworld macuser nizam nizam arain makes universe \( 217 \) 384 4671 hard comprehend internet narain uiuc edu nothing nextmail narain sumter cso uiuc edu compare
arun ac dal ca subject help duo 230 4 80 ! ! ! organization dalhousie university , halifax , nova scotia , canada lines 9 anyone know zap pram duo 230 recently noticed checking ram left finder duo 230 4 80 reveals normal system file 1 10 1 5 bar actually highlighted implying 2 300k used system gives \? crashes yet software problem thanks arun
joseph kasanic jmk13 po cwru edu subject apple 8 24 gc video card organization case school engineering lines 8 distribution world nntp posting host b63545 student cwru edu x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d20 x xxmessage id b63545 student cwru edu x xxdate wed , 21 apr 93 20 52 57 gmt friend mine recently acquired 8 ! 24 gc card iisi wondering always starts black white know numerous reports worth gc , wondering anyone could elaborate little subject replies encouraged thanks ad vance joe kasanic
whitmore iastate edu \( kurt whitmore \) subject info request hp deskwriter mathematica summary anyone problem \? organization iowa state university , ames ia lines 12 anyone else gotten system error trying print mathematica 2 1 hp deskwriter i'm using pb170 8 megs ram sys 7 0 1 hp print drivers etc works find imagewriter 'd like get much information possible send bug report wolfram thanks kurt \( whitmore iastate edu \)
uxa cso uiuc edu \( johann e \) subject vx centris upgrade price organization university illinois urbana lines 12 anyone price quote vendor vx centris 650 upgrade \? 've quoted price till august 15th cost course n't include trade rebate 1300 vx board thus 1101 one gets centris 650 , 8 meg onboard fpu ethernet anyone else info \? price university illinois micro order center , vendors offer similar prices \? johann j uiuc edu
russotto eng umd edu \( matthew russotto \) subject sad mac code 0f0064 \? \? \? organization project glue , university maryland , college park lines 15 nntp posting host tea eng umd edu article 1993apr21 desire wright edu desire wright edu writes hello proud new owner mac 512k upon power insertion sytem disk , get sad mac code 0f0064 anyone give clue means \? bad system disk \( possibly new version historical curiosity h h h h h h h h mac \) matthew russotto russotto eng umd edu russotto wam umd edu news readers expect disclaimer say police searches seizures make use force \( responsible bodily harm resulting following advice \)
cleveland freenet edu \( david fung \) subject want macweek organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 2 nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu call macuser magazine number , guess give info !
cup portal com \( ken h \) subject phonenet pc organization portal system \( tm \) distribution world lines 6 anyone experiences report using phonenet pc \? 're thinking investing one cards lone pc work ken cup portal com
diana cair du edu \( wes houghton \) subject scsi info needed organization university denver , denver , colorado lines 12 hi everyone , quick question anyone know whether supports new scsi 2 form , macs support thanks reading , wes wes houghton internet diana cair du edu denver , co
jcs sage cc purdue edu \( stalnaker \) subject mac os organization purdue university computing center lines 7 anybody know get copy system 6 0 8l modified version system 6 work newer mac models , ernest stalnaker jcs sage cc purdue edu oo oo ! pur ee ! sage cc ! jcs
jmilhoan magnus acs ohio state edu \( jt \) subject tempest cyclone info needed nntp posting host bottom magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 16 article news duke edu connie acpub duke edu \( connie \) writes anyone information upcoming new computers \( cyclone tempest \) , need info anything would greatly appreciated shawn wkuvx1 bitnet according macweek 2 22 93 description deleted idea prices \? \? thanks , jt
csp1dwd mvs oac ucla edu \( csp1dwd \) subject non apple mon duo 's nntp posting host mvs oac ucla edu lines 8 duo 's drive apple 's 16 monitor 832x624 resolution 256 colors , think non apple 16 17 monitors also used \? would multisync nec 5fg work well resolution \? outstanding points apple monitor compared monitors \? denis
anthony anthony medicine adelaide edu au subject lw select 310 n't work box ! organization medical faculty , adelaide university lines 22 distribution world nntp posting host medicine adelaide edu au x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d20 x xxmessage id medicine adelaide edu au x xxdate wed , 21 apr 93 02 25 28 gmt hello net people , laserwriter select 310 \( standard 1 5mb ram \) connected lc iii \( 4 80 \) print driver cannot find adobe type 1 fonts truetype fonts system connections printer driver installation correct 310 printer still refuses find fonts work correctly box imho , apple product working box shameful event installer disks printer install lw select 310 driver v 1 0 , v 7 1 backgrounder v 3 1 \( ! \) system 7 1 lc iii anyone else similar experiences printer configuration , really need help one thanks , anthony anthony medicine adelaide edu au
guykuo carson u washington edu \( guy kuo \) subject quadra clock modification long summary quadra 700 clock acceleration instructions keywords quadra , clock , acceleration , oscillator article shelley organization university washington lines 149 nntp posting host carson u washington edu modified quadra 700 higher speed previously using variable speed overdrive accelerating cpu modification testing stable higher speeds mileage may vary top speed achieve cannot predicted hand personal q700 tested fine 32 mhz thus far n't higher speed clock oscillators hand test higher speeds parts clock oscillators \( 4 pin ttl variety \) need selection speeds beginning 50 mhz cpu run 1 2 oscillator speed original one 50 mhz unit recommend getting 50 mhz clock case damage existing one obtained clock oscillators digikey 1 800 344 less 5 00 part numbers 50 mhz ttl clock oscillator \( part \) 62 mhz ttl clock oscillator \( part \) 66 mhz ttl clock oscillator \( part \) n't get half size clock oscillators wo n't fit also cmos clock oscillators n't tried one quadra \( work fine iisi 's \) socket obtain 4 pin socket form factor 14 pin dip package alternatively , use 4 socket pins style socket cut socket cooling fan small 12 volt fan keep cpu cool must vso came specially modified heatsink fan built onto pass connector tapped hard drive power cable rig something similar risk frying cpu procedure 1 \) insert usual disclaimer warnings 2 \) remove top lid machine see floppy disk hard drive mounted plastic tower follow usual anti static precautions course make sure machine unplug cables , wall monitor power supply cords back mac 3 \) remove power supply pulling plastic tab tower forward simultaneously pulling power supply straight tab piece plastic left posterior aspect tower extends downward hook power supply may also feel shaped piece right portion power supply leave alone plastic tab tower need release 4 \) look rear tower assembly see flat ribbon scsi connector hard drive , power cable flat ribbon cable leading floppy drive disconnect motherboard hard drive power cable connector tab must squeezed release 5 \) unplug drive activity led clear plastic mount 6 \) look posterior , cylindrical section plastic tower phillips head screw base remove , taking care drop case bit glue screwdriver helpful 7 \) remove tower assembly pulling plastic tab right side tower tab prevents tower sliding slide entire tower assembly 1 cm lift tower assembly straight case 8 \) remove interrupt switch assembly strangely shaped plastic device left , front edge motherboard pull middle , rear plastic prong forward entire device release 9 \) unplug speaker cable squeeze plastic tab speaker free swing backwards free case 10 \) remove motherboard form case lift front right corner motherboard 1 mm allows clear clear plastic power light guide slide motherboard forward 1 cm motherboard comes directly 11 \) locate 50 mhz clock crystal small metal box near cpu chip note remember orientation new clock oscillators must aligned pin 1 orientation carefully remove old clock oscillator pins may bent simply sure iron hot enough heating board used suction iron accomplish task appropriate first soldering experience motherboard multi layer design fine traces easily damaged without proper care 12 \) install socket socket pins old oscillator 13 \) put 50 mhz clock oscillator new socket could use old clock solder pins may come inside socket cause corrosion problems later suggest using new 50 mhz clock 14 \) install cooling fan system complete modification 14 \) motherboard slide place 15 \) snap interrupt switch assembly speaker lock mother board firmly plug speaker wire back motherboard 16 \) reinstall tower assembly first placing right wall tower right wall case tower assembly 1 cm posterior intended position lower tower assembly place maintaining contact right wall case fully , slide tower assembly clicks place 17 \) motherboard ends cables forget floppy drive cable 18 \) replace phillips head screw 19 \) drop power supply straight place clicks 20 \) plug hard drive activity light back clear plastic mount 21 \) cables power cords cross fingers turn mac make usual power chord n't , something immediately turn power well , sincere condolences hopefully , work normally turn machine back replace 50 mhz clock oscillator faster one reboot astounded need fully test machine many hours deciding particular speed truly usable vso , machine lock might take 8 hours operation occur brief time since modifying clock oscillator \( 36 hours \) single problem good luck attempt modification small real risk , could well reach quadra 950 speeds higher less 50 parts guy kuo guykuo u washington edu
eos ncsu edu \( brian lee smith \) subject cyclone tempest price \? originator eos ncsu edu reply eos ncsu edu \( brian lee smith \) organization north carolina state university , project eos lines 18 idea price range cyclone tempest \? \( compared current line computers , new ones fall price \) keeper heh heh stop ! name \? arthur arthur , king keeper quest \? arthur seek holy grail keeper air speed velocity swallow \? arthur mean \? african european swallow \? keeper \? n't know ! ! know much swallows \? arthur well , know things 're king know brian lee smith eos ncsu edu north carolina state university
utoronto ca \( charles ng \) subject help gcc plp ii laser printer organization uoft mechanical engineering distribution comp lines 14 plp ii laser printer make gcc technologies problem dirty first page top portion first always smeared black toner across page print one page time , problem occur pages cleaned printer still help anyone offer solutions \? know phone gcc technologies \? thanks advance charles , utoronto ca
cbnewsb cb att com \( michael p \) subject looking mac ii batteries organization distribution usa lines 17 hi ! looking source lithium batteries original mac ii number battery er 1 2 aa local electronic shops computer stores freak inquire fastest get battery 2 3 weeks 20 anything faster cheaper welcome ! please respond via e mail summarize net note e mail address differs return address posting thanks advance help ! michael mps att com
dleonard wixer bga com \( dale leonard \) subject trade se color mac \? \? \? organization real time communications lines 31 ok want get color mac n't care lc mac ii want go color machine 'd prefer trade present mac se system plus cash equipment color system right i'm full buy color system outright 's mac se system mac se 4 20 internal 800k drive 20 meg external external 800k drive imagewriter ii 4 color ribbon stuff go i'm willing include 9600 modems 2400 baud modem deal right keep mind 9600 modems less month old multitech modem sells 440 multitech ii \( 9600 data fax \) u robotics sportster \( 9600 data \) microcom qx 12k \( normally connect 2400 highest faster connected another microcom \) usr multitech brand new interested send e mail dleonard wixer bga com primary judy 's stamps \( misc topical stamps dogs dleonard wixer bga com cats baseball many many subjects secondary stamp information call tony leonard dleonard wixer cactus org \( 512 \) 837 business number ! ! !
guykuo carson u washington edu \( guy kuo \) subject iisi clock poll results long organization university washington lines 161 nntp posting host carson u washington edu summary results iisi clock modification poll keywords iisi , clock , poll poll conducted help users decide whether alter iisi clock oscillator attempted gather many case histories possible find estimate success risk number replies probably shows rare modification give impression success rates may higher previous 80 estimate 24 24 machines able run 25 mhz add boards present scientific survey best work thanks contributed poll issues speed \) 25 mhz 27 5 mhz appears norm machines without add cards reported machines able use 25 mhz long add cards present several apple nubus cards use machine nubus adapter able go faster 25 mhz one n't even able achieve 25 mhz nubus adapter place speeds 32 33 mhz , startup sound distorted hi density floppy disk problems reported note unless specifically listed , machines tested higher speed clock failure hence , 25 mhz operational machines may well work higher speeds damage \) one user reported pulling one pad repaired machine operational one reported pulling pin original clock oscillator one second hand report user putting motherboard slipped soldering iron reports static discharge damage reports high speed operation causing damage , also n't reports users defective parachutes add boards \) compatibility appears problem apple nubus adapters several add boards used success see case histories heat sinks \) virtually modified machines heat sink installed often 220 style power transistor type used epoxy used dab heat sink compound dab glue also use clamp bolt hole motherboard case histories speeds effective cpu speed \( 1 2 clock oscillator \) reported cpu versions 20 mhz 1 \) 27 5 mhz operational ran 10 minutes 31 mhz crashing fpu add card cpu 24 hours day damage installation 2 \) 27 5 mhz operational without apple nubus adapter 25 mhz top speed apple nubus card installed cpu 24 hours day floppy problems damage installation 3 \) 27 5 mhz operational unable boot 31 mhz cpu floppy problems damage installation 4 \) 25 mhz operational works following two configurations \) fpu adaptor card cache card supermac 8 24 b \) supermac fpu adaptor card supermac video spigot supermac 8 24 5 \) 33 mhz operational fuzzy startup sound problems hi density disks 6 \) 33 mhz operational fuzzy startup sound heat sink cpu chip right cpu 7 \) 25 mhz operational occasional crash 33 mhz 8 \) 25 mhz operational using fpu rated 16 mhz without difficulty 9 \) 25 mhz operational pds adapter spectrum graphics card , 20mhz fpu heat sink cpu 10 \) 25 mhz operational 33 mhz failed several hours 11 \) 25 mhz operational 5 80 quicksilver fpu \( upgrade \) 12 \) 25 mhz operational tried 33 mhz system wo n't start heat sink cpu configured fpu adapter card supermac 8 24 cache cpu continuously problems floppy works fine 1 4mb 25 mhz 13 \) 25 mhz operational heat sink cpu 14 \) 25 mhz operational heat sink cpu 15 \) 25 mhz operational heat sink cpu 16 \) 25 mhz operational heat sink cpu 17 \) 25 mhz operational heat sink cpu 17 19 hours per day 18 \) 25 mhz operational heat sink cpu cooling fan floppy problems 25 mhz 19 \) 20 mhz operational bombed soon startup 25 mhz nubus adapter 20 mhz rated cpu ram 70 ns slots , 80 motherboard 20 \) 25 mhz operational heat sink added cpu later damage apple nubus adapter fpu installed 21 \) 25 mhz operational heat sink cpu 22 \) 25 mhz operational heat sink cpu 23 \) 25 mhz operational heat sink cpu 24 \) 25 mhz operational heat sink cpu guy kuo guykuo u washington edu
tamuts tamu edu \( louis paul adams \) subject number applied engineering organization texas university , college station lines 9 nntp posting host tamuts tamu edu anyone phone number applied engineering give call \? ae dallas try 214 241 214 241 tech support may line , one get started good luck !
vme com \( ken \) subject apple going ship cd300i 's \? reply vme com \( ken \) organization corporation , madison , wi lines 18 article menudo uh edu ln63sdm sdcc4 ucsd edu writes cd300 \( external \) already shipping shipping quite awhile demand units high , pretty rare 've seen listed around 525 550 local computer stores campus mac reseller 've also heard rumors bundled couple cd 's , mention previous article searching 300 external drive call apple catalog recommended told drives back ordered may 8 placed order anyways two days later visit federal express well , guess spent weekend course ended paying list price get free copy pc exchange order apple catalog may want check internal drives btw , older version gatekeeper \( n't recall version \) , hung mac trying access photocd audio disk got newer version mention conflict apple 4 xx cd driver
billy irvine com \( \) subject wanted macintosh powerbook 100 organization irvine compiler corp , irvine , california , usa lines 10 looking mac pb 100 's good condition \( brand new , w warranty would ideal \) also include external floppy drive least 40 meg internal hard drive 4 meg ram pb100 'd like turn cash , please write thanks , much billy irvine com \( \)
rick com \( rick \) subject mac scsi spec \? lines 30 4 20 93 , tim keanini heard say regarding mac scsi spec \? tk blast nntp crl com \( tim tk keanini \) tk tk know wired scsi chain tk tk bought drive need find hardcore scsi tk question tk tk iifx scsi chain want see active passive termination \? tk tk iifx scsi spec want enable initiation tk message \? tk tk iifx scsi spec want far parity checking \? tk tk good questions faq someone tk time answer questions know look tk please let know repost answers everyone tk see tk read 273 deals sane person wants know iifx 's scsi tk thanks , tim keanini broder com blast crl com tk sound engineer software tk
guykuo carson u washington edu \( guy kuo \) subject quadra clock chip followup organization university washington lines 10 nntp posting host carson u washington edu summary results quadra modification keywords quadra , clock , oscillator recently modified quadra 700 socket clock oscillators completed nearly 40 hours error free operation 32 mhz \( 64 mhz clock oscillator \) also tried 55 mhz cmos clock works well stupid side , 've discovered use 40 mhz clock make q700 slow centris 610 however , 25 mhz clock would yielded 12 5 mhz quadra 700 \( 'd want one \? \) n't work awaiting 66 mhz clock , guy kuo guykuo u washington edu
theporch raider net \( chris lee \) subject 1 6 cdrom summary need help finding sc cdrom organization macinteresteds , nashville 's macintosh user group keywords hypercard cd cdrom lines 15 need help finding control cd rom drive aldus 1 6 apple hypercard cd rom toolkit work aldus clue apple clue berkeley mug boston mug wo n't return phone calls local user group idea help ! commercial shareware fine please reply email theporch raider net thanks ! chris lee macintosh consulting , america online po box graphics , interface design , compu erve , nashville , tn digital audio theporch raider net
jdsiegel garnet berkeley edu \( joel siegel \) subject duo price reduction \? organization university california , berkeley lines 18 nntp posting host garnet berkeley edu yes , duo prices dropped n't msrp reductions , \( though find recent tidbits , archived sumex \) 's berkeley educational price list \( old new \) duo 210 4 80 1919 1569 duo 230 4 80 1961 duo 230 4 120 2268 duo 230 4 120 modem joel joel siegel jdsiegel garnet berkeley edu jdsiegel ocf berkeley edu never able find feminism know called feminist whenever express sentiments differentiate rebecca west , 1913
bauer informatik uni ulm de \( christian bauer \) subject quicktime jpeg expansion source needed nntp posting host christian informatik uni ulm de organization university ulm lines 15 hello , need code decompression quicktime jpeg pict files , n't conform usual jpeg compressors , available source code c pascal modula code used several platforms view pictures isdn perhaps special hardware put around \( much less mac ! perhaps dsp support chips \) code available , perhaps algorithm available decompress christian bauer bauer informatik uni ulm de
ljones utkvx utk edu \( leslie jones \) subject want macweek news software vax vms vnews 1 41 organization university tennessee computing center lines 16 article 1993apr21 leland stanford edu , smashman leland stanford edu \( adam samuel nash \) writes get subscription macweek want one , n't seem able find subscription card anywhere email smashman leland stanford edu ordered subscription today call macweek 's customer service dept \( 609 \) 461 2100 quote plastic forget number , 's included statement ownership , contents page copy one year subscription costs 99 00 u , canada , mexico told first issue would arrive 4 6 weeks leslie jones ljones utkvx utk edu
ljones utkvx utk edu \( leslie jones \) subject monitors kept 24 hours day \? \? \? news software vax vms vnews 1 41 organization university tennessee computing center lines 7 cnn factiod last months stated 40 computers u left 24 hours day , 7 days week n't recall cnn 's source leslie jones ljones utkvx utk edu , turns monitor 's using
matt riddle matthew riddle science unimelb edu au subject sony dat retrospect 1 problems x xxmessage id science unimelb edu au x xxdate thu , 22 apr 93 03 27 46 gmt organization university melbourne x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d17 lines 51 hi , i'm problems tying get sony dat drive work i'm using retrospect 1 , luck getting drive work mac iici , unfortunately gone another department ideally , want attach quadra 950 setup ca n't seem get retrospect software recognize media devices dialog , see dat device , comes , firstly , , secondly immediately happen mac iici setup , simply says i'm hoping someone else similar problems found solution know others problems dat devices quadra , mac iici use ! symptoms system software 7 1 , also n't work 7 0 1 tried following turn extensions , except retrospect scsi \( required \) tested variety machines quadra , iisi , lc \( least \) connected scsi devices tested varieties scsi termination etc replaced dat unit new one \( yes ! got desperate ! \) read retrospect manual \( even desperate \) \) replies via email would greatly appreciated thanks advance 'll post solutions group cheers , matt matthew riddle matthew ariel unimelb edu au science multimedia teaching unit tel 61 3 344 6400 faculty science fax 61 3 344 university melbourne australia opinions !
matt riddle matthew riddle science unimelb edu au subject quadra scsi problems \? \? \? x xxmessage id science unimelb edu au x xxdate thu , 22 apr 93 03 36 41 gmt organization university melbourne x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d17 lines 31 article kluskens nrl navy mil michael kluskens , kluskens radar nrl navy mil writes problem mentioned last known quadra scsi problem , heavily discussed last year apple employee pointed one byte error scsi driver routine quadra 's \( least 700 900 \) system 7 1 problem , people solution get updated driver drive case mass microsystems wrote new driver fixed problem quadra 700 , occured early last year anyone know updated driver sony dat drives \? ca n't get mine work 950 \( see sony dat retrospect problems posted group \) i'm also problems new macs cheers , matt matthew riddle matthew ariel unimelb edu au science multimedia teaching unit tel 61 3 344 6400 faculty science fax 61 3 344 university melbourne australia opinions !
musicb mcgill ca subject upgrading pb100 \? lines 9 nntp posting host vm1 mcgill ca organization mcgill university read recent tidbits \( 171 2 \? \) possibility putting 68030 pb100 interested , would like know involve replacing 68000 daughterboard , involve getting new daughter board also , would 68030 able run qt pb100 's screen \( pretty know , possible \? \) course , would damage \( \) info would appreciated thanks advance jay
chaos cs brandeis edu \( alan \) subject help gcc plp ii laser printer reply cs brandeis edu organization little possible distribution comp lines 13 utoronto ca \( charles ng \) writes plp ii laser printer make gcc technologies problem dirty first page top portion first always smeared black toner across page print one page time , problem occur pages cleaned printer still help anyone offer solutions \? know phone gcc technologies \? phone number gcc 617 275 , believe n't number tech support handy alan
menes statistik tu muenchen de \( rainer menes \) subject quadra clock chip followup keywords quadra , clock , oscillator originator menes statistik tu muenchen de organization technische universitaet muenchen , germany lines 87 replaced 66 mhz yesterday quadra works 33 mhz stable 14 hours also tried 70 mhz , 1 2 hour quadra 700 died sure reason , risky run fast quadras 700 work 33 mhz without problems safety tip backup harddisk befor start upgrade 35 mhz test damaged harddisk get working backup befor start ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! speedometer results replacing speedometer report menes rainer prepared april 22 , 1993 machine record version 5 user comment quadra 700 33mhz ram disk 20 mbyte ram 2 mbyte vram system information computer mac quadra 700 cpu fpu integral fpu mmu integral mmu color quickdraw 2 30 \( 32 bit qd \) system version 7 1 6 finder version d1 7 1 appletalk version 57 laserwriter version d1 7 1 2 laser prep version found imagewriter version d1 7 0 1 rom version rom size 1024 bit depth 1 horizontal dpi 72 vertical dpi 72 primary screen size 832 x 624 physical ram logical ram p r results \( uses mac classic 1 0 \) cpu 21 625 graphics 30 052 disk 28 351 name hard disk tested ram disk math 135 128 performance rating \( pr \) 36 848 benchmark results \( uses mac classic 1 0 \) 1500 000 205 479 789 27 008 towers 24 960 22 391 bubble sort 23 823 queens 24 105 puzzle 28 804 permutations 26 523 fast fourier 167 728 f p matrix multiply 154 452 integer matrix multiply 30 250 sieve 25 602 benchmark average 63 427 fpu tests \( uses mac ii 1 0 \) fast fourier 14 636 fpu 545 7 636 fpu f p matrix mult 14 333 fpu test average 12 202 color tests \( uses mac ii 1 0 \) black white 6 395 4 colors 6 773 16 colors 6 957 256 colors 7 color test average 6 785 interesting graphics results \( graphics 30 052 \) could n't belief , true two points cause problems 4 mbyte ram solder board 80ns rams run 33 mhz next part may cause trouble video rams 100ns apple quadra , also chips running n't run parts quadra board running wn wont make question neat new heat sink would say running quadra 14 hours heat sink really cool 33 mhz 486 heat sink mutch warmer 68040 quadra , n't see problems room 22 celsius \( 72 f \) living area hot 100 f \( 45 c \) room mutch would suggest new heat sink ventilator stay safe side hope success , rainer email menes statistik tu muenchen de
distribution world armani edgeway wimsey bc ca \( anand mani \) organization ! subject quadra 900 950 lines 24 article yuma acns colostate edu , lance colostate edu \( daniel philip \) wrote anybody know difference 900 quadra 950 \? 900 popular misspelling quadra 900 , 25 mhz 040 processor 950 33 mhz 040 , local buses motherboard run faster video different also 950 run 13 believe 16 monitor 16 bit color without vram upgrade besides faster processor , 950 scsi 2 , far know , faster due separate processors handling functions 950 output 16 bit video 16 monitor 1 meg vram 24 bit 2 meg hope helps anand armani edgeway wimsey bc ca ! armani edgeway wimsey bc ca gui bbs \( 604 \) 984 anand \( 604 \) 669 views expressed mine ! firstclass \( tm \) lite \( tm \) north vancouver , bc canada
org \( karen silverman \) subject problems laserwriter print driver organization lines 17 problems laserwriter print drivers going bad various people 's machines appletalk network network , people 7 0 , 7 01 , 7 1 versions laserwriter print driver solving problem reinstalling print driver , time consuming real pain software also seems go bad frequently also replacing \( , seems \) keep things running anyone ideas may causing printing software go bad \? known init conflicts network conflicts \? would appreciate communication similar experiences may ideas could send email directly org thanks karen
eis calstate edu \( steven adams \) subject nec 5fge vs nec 5fg article eis organization calif state univ electronic information services lines 13 told resolution 5fge could go 1024x768 5 fg could go 1152x870 anybody tried running higher resolutions \? \? somewhere thought read 1152x870 17 monitor may make type small read help would appreciated steve
monty solomon monty roscom think com subject 72 pin simms , \? reply monty solomon roscom ! monty think com organization proponent distribution na article charnel ecst csuchico edu smedley ecst csuchico edu \( steven medley \) writes looking 8 meg 72 pin simm centris 610 best place purchase one \( stock , shipping , warrenty \) , possible , phone numbers order one soon possible 1st tech corp technology blvd , suite 130 po box austin tx 800 533 512 258 3570 fax 512 258 monty solomon po box framingham , monty roscom think com
distribution world lynn c bmug org organization bmug , inc subject non apple mini docks available \? lines 10 math coprocessors available right aware development demand appears low device right , i'm sure enterprising vendor would create one sufficient demand lynn planet bmug , firstclass bbs bmug message contained posting way reflect bmug 's official views
distribution world lynn c bmug org organization bmug , inc subject driver xp60 b lines 9 log onto supermac 's bbs \( 408 \) 773 4500 download drive 7 manager software find ca n't n't want call bbs , call tech support number , \( 408 \) 245 lynn planet bmug , firstclass bbs bmug message contained posting way reflect bmug 's official views
imv aau dk \( karl johan olsen \) subject mac plus constantly rebooting ! organization information , university aarhus , denmark lines 22 article netnews upenn edu , eniac seas upenn edu \( george \) wrote basically , mac pluses constantly rebooting , reboot button pushed sometimes mac able fully boot well threads going long enough 'll add twist yet another twist i'm kind problem se \( 2 5 40 \) , although frequent suggestions \? karl johan olsen internet imv aau dk dept information media science university aarhus denmark
hades coos dartmouth edu \( brian v hughes \) subject price drop c650 within reply hades dartmouth edu organization dartmouth college , hanover , nh disclaimer personally , really n't care think speak moderator rec arts comics info lines 14 ns111310 lance colostate edu \( nathaniel sammons \) writes alas , funny system , sounds like good deal , centris 650 , 4mb \( motherboard \) 4mb simm , 80mb hd , ethernet coprocessor \( well , actually 's 68lc040 instead 68rc040 , 'just say keep people saying thing '040 without coprocessor , since fpu built chip \) actually , thing '040 without coprocessor 's called 68lc040 redesign full 040 \( people calling 68rc040 , although told number people motorola n't call full '040 \) without integrated fpu hardware n't
clavazzi nyx cs du edu \( doge \) subject educational pricing x disclaimer nyx public access unix system run university denver denver community university neither control responsibility opinions users organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept distribution usa lines 25 article cs dal ca hayes ug cs dal ca \( kevin b hayes \) writes 1993apr15 leland stanford edu leland stanford edu \( steven jin chang \) writes seems confusion educational discounts true apple different dealer price educational retail vendors , price differences great 5 maybe , end user price like 10 20 less canada anyway 's worth , experience educational discount \( taken advantage , teacher \) roughly equivalent corporate discounts i'm able get employee fairly large multi state corporation , usually least good one get one discount computer chains \( e g compusa \) purposes budget estimation around , usually knock around 20 srp doge south st louis dobbs approved media conspirator \( tm \) one step beyond sundays , 3 5 pm 88 1 fm st louis community radio 'll pay know really think ! j r bob dobbs
athena mit edu \( fung \) subject powerpc nubus rumors \? organization massachusetts institute technology lines 9 distribution world nntp posting host mit edu read macweek developers getting nubus cards apple pre release powerpc chips mean chip released , us old apples able take advantage powerpc risc technology inserting card \? n't know anything hardware , someone tell much would \?
npl prodigal psych rochester edu \( nicholas \) subject removable drive organization university rochester \( rochester , ny \) lines 14 nntp posting host prodigal psych rochester edu possible rip external syquest removable drive external casing install 5 1 4 empty bay slot centris 650 \? know special bracket would need purchased , power hookup scsi constraints would prevent \? anyone done , could mail instructions n't seem overwhelming undertaking nicholas controls fork , controls meal choice npl psych rochester edu npl merlin cvs rochester edu lard \( 1991 \)
ecn purdue edu \( mike \) subject svga monitors centris \( real story \) organization engineering computer network lines 6 real story \? hook pc svga centris internal video \? need make cable n't come one \? apple released tech note pinouts \? ask seems prices svga lower mac counterparts mike
subject monitors kept 24 hours day \? \? \? stubbs hawk cs ukans edu \( jerry stubbs \) organization university kansas computer science dept lines 17 yes , know computers harddisk drives always monitors \? generate lots heat n't keep 24 hours day \? advice \? thanks take care paul vote turning night stress little harmful , n't turn , back hour later , etc , turning 4 5 hours overnight good idea consumption go turn overnight , along heat lot 10 year old machines basement still work , cares \? \( 24 hours day \)
roy mchip00 med nyu edu \( roy smith \) subject monitors kept 24 hours day \? \? \? organization new york university , school medicine lines 29 nntp posting host mchip00 med nyu edu stubbs hawk cs ukans edu \( jerry stubbs \) writes consumption go turn overnight , along heat wonder hard would \( e would add cost \) design desktop machines power saver feature built would reduce power consumption automatically machine idle amount time pretty standard portable machines , kinds tricks could played spinning disks , turning screens , reducing clock speed , etc advantage turning thing would 1 \) n't remember anything 2 \) machine still available network tricky part might defining constitutes inactivity certainly , n't want wake sleep mode somebody , want wake \( least cpu \) somebody logs via telnet connection would n't worry much wasting electricity winter months energy getting turned heat may efficient way heat building central heating plant , 's bad summer though , 's disaster wasting power , 're probably also running air conditioning get rid waste heat roy smith roy nyu edu project , department microbiology , coles 202 nyu school medicine , 550 first avenue , new york , ny 10016 never happened bart simpson
kwun css itd umich edu \( michael kwun \) subject duo price reduction \? organization university michigan itd consulting support lines 26 nntp posting host stimpy css itd umich edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 joel siegel \( jdsiegel garnet berkeley edu \) wrote yes , duo prices dropped n't msrp reductions , \( though find recent tidbits , archived sumex \) 's berkeley educational price list \( old new \) duo 210 4 80 1919 1569 duo 230 4 80 1961 duo 230 4 120 2268 duo 230 4 120 modem michigan state university pricing 210 systems powerbook duo portable mac powerbook duo 210 4m ram 80m hd 1528 98 promotion expires 06 13 93 mac pb duo 210 4 80 bundle w 1 4m drive 1636 08 internet michael kwun umich edu speak bitnet support local cooperative
drand spinner osf org \( douglas rand \) subject disk mount problems organization open software foundation lines 13 external drive connected iisi never recognized mounted system startup mount scsi control panel i'm running system 7 0 1 , everything properly terminated would anyone helpful idea problem \? douglas rand drand osf org osf motif dev snail 11 cambridge center , cambridge , 02142 disclaimer n't know osf agrees let 's vote amateur radio kc1kj
cec uchile cl \( \) subject appletalk imagewriter lq compatible needed nntp posting host cec uchile cl organization universidad de chile x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 8 since image writer lq discontinued , apple talk printer 11 15 continous paper printer would like know possibility connect ibm compatible printer apple talk net directly \( net serial hardware \) , need software
bob dohr n2240 z1 fidonet org \( bob dohr \) subject good hard disk driver non apple drives \? \( sys 7 1 compat \) organization fidonet node 1 2240 174 association mac bbs , grand blanc mi lines 33 need add message major problem hands rodime 60 \( series \) external hard drive rodime business , writing drivers particular , drivers compatable system 7 1 talking rodime , recommended following hard drive manufacturers driver software compatable scsi hard drive manufacturer driver software fwb hard disk tool kit fwb hard disk tool kit personal la cie silverlining 5 2 higher blanca driver software drive7 anybody experience driver software packages , please reply shareware , would like get hands would much rather send good developer 25 , software mentioned , purchased , would cost 125 , 49 , 149 , 49 respectively thanks advance bob dohr , association bringing kind word helpful spirit wherever , association multi line macintosh bbs grand blanc , michigan ! echoes fido , internet , , , k 12 plus 2gb files 313 695 hst v 32bis testify 2 0 bob dohr internet bob dohr n2240 z1 fidonet org
guykuo carson u washington edu \( guy kuo \) subject quadra clock chip followup keywords quadra , clock , oscillator article shelley organization university washington lines 3 nntp posting host carson u washington edu also moved 66 6 mhz clock thus far problems i'm 've q700 run 35 4 mhz \( cpu clock speed \) using vso 25 mhz rated daystar got hot 32 mhz would fail previously glued piece aluminum stock hi speed ram chips runs cool without problems 33 3 mhz combination faster q950
marty sachs ux1 cso uiuc edu subject 72 pin simms q 800 , careful buying organization usda ars uiuc lines 17 purchased mb 72 pin \( 60 ns \) simms quadra 800 chip merchant \( 've satisfied past \) either one alone works , together fail called apple advice told problem composite simms non composite simms used q 800 chip merchant confirmed presently sell composite 72 pin simms , q 800 simms need 60 ns non composite marty sachs usda ars uiuc ux1 cso uiuc edu internet turner hall bitnet 1102 ave \( 217 \) 244 phone urbana , il 61801 \( 217 \) 333 fax
todd carson u washington edu \( todd l brooks \) subject laserwriter ls driver article shelley organization university washington lines 6 nntp posting host carson u washington edu heard version 7 2 printer driver apple laserwriter ls heard get driver please email thanks !
uucp mailhost ecn uoknor edu \( bryan oakley \) subject monitors kept 24 hours day \? \? \? organization faa mike aeronautical center distribution lines 25 article 1r3jl5 igh function mps ohio state edu , nevai mps ohio state edu \( paul nevai \) yes , know computers harddisk drives always monitors \? generate lots heat n't keep 24 hours day \? advice \? thanks take care paul paul nevai nevai mps ohio state edu dept math ohio state university 1 614 292 3317 \( office \) columbus , ohio 43210 1174 , u 1 614 292 1479 \( math dept fax \) well , n't exaclty know done , keep cpu turn monitor use much power consumption anything though turning monitor use advantage requiring less ram screen saver \( requires memory remember turn pretty easy remember turn though \) instrument approach procedures automation dot faa ami 230 bryan oakley mailhost ecn uoknor edu
hades coos dartmouth edu \( brian v hughes \) subject c610 tempest \? reply hades dartmouth edu organization dartmouth college , hanover , nh disclaimer personally , really n't care think speak moderator rec arts comics info lines 16 david tsai andrew cmu edu writes going possible upgrade c610 tempest \? 's current rumor started macweek last month , motherboard switch \? else would accomplish kind upgrade \? probably gonna expensive right \? course apple talking hades
hades coos dartmouth edu \( brian v hughes \) subject centris 610 25mhz 33mhz \? \? \? keywords centris reply hades dartmouth edu organization dartmouth college , hanover , nh disclaimer personally , really n't care think speak moderator rec arts comics info lines 21 paryavi matt ksu ksu edu \( saiid paryavi \) writes put 33mhz 040 cpu centris 610 math coprocessor , possible speed centris run either 25mhz 33mhz \? \? without replacing chips motherboard c610 n't like iisi , meaning motherboard c610 actually run speed cpu , designed run higher speed \( like 25mhz \) forced run speed slower cpu \( 20mhz \) n't see oscillators motherboard like ones iisi 's motherboard ! oscillator centris \? one oscillator talking cpu oscillator chip , think located socket '040 least read posts group hades
iris wpafb af mil \( randy \) subject third party monitor iisi organization model based vision lab , wright laboratory lines 19 nntp posting host optic nerve wpafb af mil x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 's deal pds slot iisi \? recently purchased mac iisi want add non apple monitor system told could buy 90 degree pds nubus adaptor card fit standard nubus card computer mistaken buy pds monitor card specifically iisi \? 've seen pds monitor cards si , seem expensive , i'm exactly made money ideas \? help clue ! randy l barney must die need somebody shove disclaimer opinions expressed mine anyone else 's
pebi aem umn edu \( peter bidian \) subject duo price reduction \? nntp posting host aem umn edu organization university minnesota lines 25 kwun css itd umich edu \( michael kwun \) writes michigan state university pricing 210 systems powerbook duo portable mac powerbook duo 210 4m ram 80m hd 1528 98 promotion expires 06 13 93 might already 200 cheaper \) \) mac pb duo 210 4 80 bundle w 1 4m drive 1636 08 u mn , bundle peter internet michael kwun umich edu speak bitnet support local cooperative
gsager heliacal eng sun com \( gary \) subject monitors kept 24 hours day \? \? \? organization sun microsystems lines 39 distribution world reply gsager heliacal eng sun com nntp posting host heliacal wonder hard would \( e would add cost \) design desktop machines power saver feature built would reduce power consumption automatically machine idle amount time believe apple , sun number desktop machine manufacturers agreed government incorporate power saving techniques also something governments countries likely require future , expect see may include ability system fully power monitor , via power outlet , power back automatically \( sell screen saver software companies \? \) goals idle power consumption set something like 30 watts system , including monitor \( \? n't quote \) note many businesses , savings substantial , especially factor reduced load air conditioning systems sun study indicated simply powering monitors night would save company \( sun \) order 1m per year putting \( automatic \) power saving features would probably greater double value given seeing reason leave work home computers \( getting faxes , automatically getting email , \) , building power consumption control machines potential cut 2 national power consumption , based data heard btw encouraging employees power monitors leaving work , pointed done monitors power switch front indication monitors power switches rear designed tolerate lots power cycling may apply monitors use , might worth checking happen monitor switch back
alexander samuel mcdiarmid am2o andrew cmu edu subject svga monitors centris \( real story \) organization sophomore , mechanical engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 19 nntp posting host po4 andrew cmu edu reply jonathan ecn purdue edu real story \? hook pc svga centris internal video \? need make cable n't come one \? apple released tech note pinouts \? ask seems prices svga lower mac counterparts mike essentially answer yes least 600x400 configuration get adaptor called mac vga q james engineering \( 510 \) 525 7350 let display 600x400 800x600 monitor capable think 800x600 requires horizontal sync use sony 1604 \( gives slightly wider screen 832x624 adaptor hope helps
ns111310 lance colostate edu \( nathaniel sammons \) subject price drop c650 within nntp posting host casco lance colostate edu organization colorado state u engineering college lines 25 article dartvax dartmouth edu hades dartmouth edu writes ns111310 lance colostate edu \( nathaniel sammons \) writes alas , funny system , sounds like good deal , centris 650 , 4mb \( motherboard \) 4mb simm , 80mb hd , ethernet coprocessor \( well , actually 's 68lc040 instead 68rc040 , 'just say keep people saying thing '040 without coprocessor , since fpu built chip \) actually , thing '040 without coprocessor 's called 68lc040 redesign full 040 \( people calling 68rc040 , although told number people motorola n't call full '040 \) without integrated fpu hardware n't 's pseudo disclaimer supposed say , sorry confusion nate hate quotations message brought tell know nate sammons , number 42 ralph waldo emerson ns111310 longs lance colostate edu
tno nada kth se \( tommy \) subject question laser printers keywords laser , printer nntp posting host alv nada kth se organization royal institute technology , stockholm , sweden lines 12 sale coming soon , wonder anyone know printers olivetti pg 306 , canon 8r , nec 2 , kyocera laser , , postscript , appletalk interface builtin please reply e mail tommy woman forsake royal institute technology fire , stockholm home acre , tno nada kth se go old grey widow maker
murray andromeda rutgers edu \( murray \) subject upgrading mac plus se use superdrive organization rutgers univ , new brunswick , n j lines 14 hello , lab old macs \( ses pluses \) n't enough money buy new machines , considering buying superdrives old macs allow folks high density disks use equipment wondering experiences \( good bad \) people sort upgrade murray murray andromeda rutgers edu
chyang engin umich edu \( chung hsiung yang \) subject monitors kept 24 hours day \? \? \? organization university michigan engineering , ann arbor lines 18 distribution world nntp posting host engin umich edu article utkvx utk edu ljones utkvx utk edu \( leslie jones \) writes cnn factiod last months stated 40 computers u left 24 hours day , 7 days week n't recall cnn 's source yeah , probably included industries educational institutions uses mostly work stations \( suns , dec , ibm etc etc \) turns monitor left untouched 5 min chung yang leslie jones ljones utkvx utk edu , turns monitor 's using
gurman gsfc nasa gov \( joseph b gurman \) subject vx centris upgrade price organization nasa goddard space flight center greenbelt , md usa lines 20 uxa cso uiuc edu \( johann e \) writes anyone price quote vendor vx centris 650 upgrade \? 've quoted price till august 15th cost course n't include trade rebate 1300 vx board thus 1101 one gets centris 650 , 8 meg onboard fpu ethernet anyone else info \? price university illinois micro order center , vendors offer similar prices \? falcon microsystems md , sole apple authorized reseller federal government , similar open market prices upgrade new general services schedule yet joe gurman j b gurman solar physics branch nasa goddard space flight center greenbelt md 20771 usa gurman gsfc nasa gov federal employees prohibited holding opinions hatch act therefore , opinions expressed herein somebody else 's
vub ac \( herzog robert \( dbm \) \) subject mac \? card use \? distribution world organization brussels free universities \( vub \) , belgium lines 6 keywords nice 19 b w monitor , formerly used atari st think monitors used macs someone tell mac use , card get use , etc monitor also label front saying viking 2 90 , connector
murphy npri6 npri com \( david p murphy \) subject monitors kept 24 hours day \? \? \? distribution world organization npri , alexandria va lines 19 cnn factiod last months stated 40 computers u left 24 hours day , 7 days week n't recall cnn 's source ljones utkvx utk edu \( leslie jones \) yeah , big mainframes monitors factoid fabricated corrupted tidbit ordinary information \( diluted \) ok murphy npri6 npri com \( systems programmer large \) every one dead 602 cameron st great game finished alexandria , va \( 703 \) 683 9090 , kim
mdavis crash cts com \( morgan davis \) subject iici rom offers 32 bit clean rom iix organization cts network services \( crash , ctsnet \) , el cajon , ca lines 16 news udel edu johnston udel edu \( bill johnston \) writes particular case see reason go trouble rom swapping apple 32 bit enabler problems , mode32 works fine 7 0 , 7 0 1 , 7 1 still , i'm aware technical reason upgrading rom iix getting 32 bit clean rom , features would iici rom iix provide , \? probably market used mother boards well , might sell rom anyway sells 450 ca n't justify 32 bit mode32 works
sch ge com \( scott van \) subject hook mac modem ps 2 70 nntp posting host 3 10 7 20 organization industrial power systems anyone ever hooked hayes 2400 macintosh modem serial port pc \? pin outs \? mac printer cable hook db 25 mac serial port hook two mini 8 ports together \? swap pins \? thanx advance scott
mizzou1 missouri edu \( eaton \) subject \( q \) way connect pb 145 , iisi , p lw ls \? nntp posting host mizzou1 missouri edu organization university missouri lines 7 way connect powerbook 145 , mac iisi , personal laserwriter ls \( necessarily \) print either iisi , pb , file share iisi pb \? know get \( expensive \) lw nt upgrade ls , ca n't afford thanks , mark
gunawan envmsa eas asu edu \( gunawan \) subject need latest model developer notes news software vax vms vnews 1 4 b1 organization arizona state university , tempe , az lines 17 hi , anyone know get developer notes new mac models \( like iivx , lc iii , centris \) \? thank 's information please reply email k gunawan \( oo \) internet ' ` gunawan envmsa eas asu edu gunawan eas asu edu ` ' gunawan eas asu edu uu uu arizona state university ' `
dale adams gateway qm apple com \( dale adams \) subject 72 pin simms q 800 , careful buying organization apple computer , inc , cupertino , ca lines 22 article news cso uiuc edu marty sachs ux1 cso uiuc edu writes purchased mb 72 pin \( 60 ns \) simms quadra 800 chip merchant \( 've satisfied past \) either one alone works , together fail called apple advice told problem composite simms non composite simms used q 800 chip merchant confirmed presently sell composite 72 pin simms , q 800 simms need 60 ns non composite 8 mb simms composite simms , although many \( \? \) 16 mb simms 72 pin simms allow two memory banks per simm , thus permitting use 4 mb dram devices \( ones used 4 mb simms \) used two 4 mb banks one simm ca n't imagine would cheaper build 8 mb simm using 1 mb 4 mb parts reached \( exceeded \) bit bit price parity 1 mb parts time ago 's probably possible build single bank 8 mb simm using 4 mb parts could cause problems q800 i'm sure 'd want , though , dual bank 8 mb simm would cheaper build single bank composite one dale adams
kelleyb austin ibm com \( kelley boylan \) subject monitors kept 24 hours day \? \? \? originator kelleyb kelleyb austin ibm com reply kelleyb austin ibm com organization ibm austin , powerpc lines 21 consumption go turn overnight , along heat wonder hard would \( e would add cost \) design desktop machines power saver feature built would reduce power consumption automatically machine idle amount time apple several manufacturers already committed monitor design announced along new administration 's efforts cut waste fuel consumption know buildings work , wasted unused , always machines monitors kelley thomas kelley boylan , powerpc , ibm austin , kelleyb austin ibm com buy pay opinions
grads otago ac nz subject pb 160 extended keyboard \? article otago 1993apr23 1 organization university otago , dunedin , new zealand lines 18 nntp posting host otago ac nz article 1993apr22 1 otago ac nz , grads otago ac nz writes hello , saw question posted week ago , far could tell answer appeared net good oil connecting apple extended keyboard powerbook \? earlier would help gratefully recieved summarise net necessary general consensus seems extended keyboard \( new ergonomic keyboard \) mouse ok pb160 rated apparently identical lc lc works fine said attachments thanks much replied way order mouse \) john wonder electric p thinking pb160 assume would apply pb 's
demon desire wright edu \( boomer \) subject performa lc \? \? \? organization acme products lines 26 article 1993apr20 puc cl , rcvillab isluga puc cl \( carlos \) writes hi ! ! question diference performa 450 lciii \? want know better know specifications prices computers , tell email rcvillab isluga puc cl 'd like know diference apple monitor \( \) performa monitor performa 200 classic ii performa 400 lc ii performa 4xx lc iii performa 600 well , nothing \) performas made low cost business solutions 4xx bundled software , modems , etc retail price might able get discount shop around far monitors go , buy 3rd party much cheaper brett 's nothing passionate vested interest disguised intellectual conviction sean o'casey white plague frank herbert
demon desire wright edu \( boomer \) subject monitors kept 24 hours day \? \? \? organization acme products lines 27 article austin ibm com , kelleyb austin ibm com \( kelley boylan \) writes yes , know computers harddisk drives always monitors \? generate lots heat n't keep 24 hours day \? advice \? thanks take care paul empirical evidence support first statement true , power surge startup potential damage , internal power supply well protected \( 've turned mac six seven times day three years without problem \) monitor leave waste lot electricity twice much television , possibly computer uses far less electricity tv monitor depends size \) one thing use self shutdown power shutdown iron appliance electric line new monitor power supply modem , wife still n't think iron fault \( \( know better , bio med engineer \) brett 's nothing passionate vested interest disguised intellectual conviction sean o'casey white plague frank herbert
hawk cs ukans edu \( unknown class user \) subject macintosh weenies suck scsi disks ! ! ! article hawk distribution usa organization university kansas computer science dept lines 3 think subject title says anybody relies scsi dick pain ass ! !
isbell ai mit edu \( charles l isbell \) subject really stupid monitor question article panther isbell distribution world organization mit artificial intelligence laboratory lines 14 nntp posting host panther ai mit edu iisi portrait display \( love \) i'm using built video support , slow deals 16 colors grays , i'm wondering get video card , much tend speed things able get \? oh , w fpu limit choices video cards \? thanks peace fighting peace like f cking virginity n't adopt opinions develop hell
ravi konchigeri mongoose leland stanford edu subject svga monitors centris \( real story \) x xxmessage id kimball pc 316 stanford edu x xxdate thu , 22 apr 93 23 35 07 gmt organization stanford university x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d17 lines 28 article jonathan ecn purdue edu mike , ecn purdue edu writes real story \? hook pc svga centris internal video \? need make cable n't come one \? apple released tech note pinouts \? ask seems prices svga lower mac counterparts first , would n't advise wasting time apple 'll treat like idiot wo n't get answers \( personal opinion \) safest thing match svga monitor 's scanning rates apple 's rates n't know apple 's video scanning rates , use micron 30 's rates , 're good approximation cables go someplace like fry 's get mac vga cables try viewsonic 5e \( 14 \) use nec adaptor monitors may use adaptors also mac 832x624 adaptor tricks system thinking monitor apple 16 need vertical horizontal sizes works fairly well like everything else life , right lane ends half mile ravi konchigeri mongoose leland stanford edu
flash austin lockheed com \( james w melton \) subject lciii problems \( sideways hd 's \) article shrike organization lockheed austin division , 6800 rd , austin , tx lines 36 article usenet ins cwru edu kephart snowhite eeap cwru edu \( kephart \) writes article menudo uh edu , sunnyt coding bchs uh edu writes good idea horizontally formatted hard disk vertical position drive formatted horizontal position , completely compensate gravitational pull vertical position asked question ago contemplating placing 650 's side received response someone seagate \( sorry trashed message \) stating newer drives \( least \) well compensate gravity means horizontally formatted drive later placed vertically data integrity problems problems putting drive formatted vertically side horizontally \? got drive years ago rubber feet side , etc used like since \( obviously designed orientation \) however , n't fit clever places think place , would really like lay flat put low shelf probably newer drive , 70 meg , bought , large drive average user \( comparable buying 200 meg drive today \) old , 70 meg drive fragile \( \) new 200 meg drive \? curious jim melton , novice guru email flash austin lockheed com far know , voice mail \( 512 \) 386 computer never fax \( 512 \) 386 undetected error
distribution world thomas n krebs mcontent apana org au organization maccontent bbs , , victoria , australia return receipt thomas n krebs mcontent apana org au subject drive speeds differ \? \? lines 11 likely explanation may something fact greater density information exists larger capacity disk drive smaller one running drive mac would recommend shareware utility called tests seek , scsi throughput rotational speed utility let know differences drives views expressed posting individual author bbs number \( 613 \) 848 1346 maccontent victoria first iconic bbs !
distribution world tony sullivan mcontent apana org au organization maccontent bbs , , victoria , australia return receipt tony sullivan mcontent apana org au subject deskwriter drivers 3 1 install \? lines 16 someone tell files come dw 3 1 go purpose \? left , instance , n't want background printing \? far remember , need get deskwriter printing using 3 1 driver drag driver \( either serial appletalk depending needs \) system folder n't need fonts anything else want straight forward , bare bones , basic printing n't anything else installed still print deskwriter using sys7 1 hp driver 3 1 tony views expressed posting individual author bbs number \( 613 \) 848 1346 maccontent victoria first iconic bbs !
bongo cc utexas edu \( marc bizer \) subject problems hp backgrounder help ! ! organization university texas austin lines 23 x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d20 x xxmessage id slip 177 ots utexas edu x xxdate thu , 22 apr 93 21 13 52 gmt hi everyone , i'm experiencing annoying problem background printing hp deskwriter \( sys 7 1 , deskwriter driver 3 1 , powerbook 170 \) print , say , ms word , see message disk , sometimes nothing prints checking memory map thanks menus , see hp backgrounder loaded restarting fixes seems hp backgrounder quitting unexpectedly , status multifinder aware allows without informed message hp backgrounder quit unexpectedly ever seen problem may may related problem experienced problems putting computer sleep choosing sleep finder menu sometimes nothing today whim checked memory map , discovered hp backgrounder loaded restarted reloaded hp backgrounder , able put machine sleep usual mere coincidence hp backgrounder crash preventing machine going sleep \? anyone seen problem \? i'm seriously considering purchase poor quality hp software please send answers directly post net truly , marc bizer
chico acc iit edu \( users \) subject quadra 900 950 article iitmax 1993apr22 organization illinois institute technology , chicago lines 17 reply armani edgeway wimsey bc ca 's message wed , 21 apr 1993 16 59 07 pst x news reader vms news 1 24 1993apr21 edgeway wimsey bc ca armani edgeway wimsey bc ca writes besides faster processor , 950 scsi 2 , far know , faster due separate processors handling functions 950 output 16 bit video 16 monitor 1 meg vram 24 bit 2 meg actually , quadra 900 950 scsi controller , \( running different speed \) scsi 2 , support certain scsi commands take advantage faster drives processors present machines q950 runs bus 25mhz , 900 's bus 16mhz quadra 950 supports 16bit color monitor sizes , well 24bit 832 x 624 resolution also supports 1024 resolution 900 supports supports 8bit x 870 , support 1024 x 768 vram 950 80ns faster , 100ns faster 900 john
jeff gandalf otago ac nz \( jeff home \) subject article news organization university otago lines 9 x xxdate fri , 23 apr 93 18 27 16 gmt nntp posting host 139 80 160 86 x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d17 anybody heard thing called \? saw tv couple years ago , watch transmitter mac practical upshot mac page watch display small message states week two soon interested getting one info would appreciated thanx advance glenn
uts uni c dk \( h pedersen \) subject se 30 8bit card work 20mb organization uni c , danish computing centre research education keywords se 30 mode32 system7 pds lines 41 news cs tu berlin de ossip cs tu berlin de \( ossip kaehr \) writes se 30 generation systems 8bit pds card 17 screen worked great upgraded 5 20 mb ram sys7 1 mode32 boot tech support person said card support 32bit fixes guess right early versions rasterops cards either , fixed , people problems get free rom upgrade rasterops pressing shift key booting \( ext monitor goes black grey \) system sometimes boots properly ! ! works ok 20mb full graphics 's happening \? \? \? easy boot without mode32 control panel , disable \( rather reinstall \) 32 bit clean patches run ok must 24 bit adressing mode check macintosh see 12 mb system thanks lot advice ! ! ! please answer mail sent seperately ossip kaehr ossip cs tu berlin de voice 49 30 ossip kaehr 32 1000 berlin 44 germany tel 49 30 email ossip cs tu berlin de h pedersen macintosh specialist knows dos unix pope imv aau dk uts uni c dk finger pope imv aau dk pgp public key
hades coos dartmouth edu \( brian v hughes \) subject quadra 900 950 reply hades dartmouth edu organization dartmouth college , hanover , nh disclaimer personally , really n't care think speak moderator rec arts comics info lines 12 armani edgeway wimsey bc ca \( anand mani \) writes besides faster processor , 950 scsi 2 , far know , faster due separate processors handling functions mostly q950 scsi2 controller chip 's scsi chip , chips use wide fast scsi 2 modes therefore n't offer much way scsi performance q900 , , faster controller q900 real speed boost comes hades
long mcntsh enet dec com \( rich long \) subject good aps experience organization digital equipment corporation lines 28 thought would pass along experience aps recently ordered external quantum 240 salesperson friendly knowledgeable , order came promised , invoice price quoted installing drive simple n't even read manual scsi address set arrangement daisy chained drive syquest \( also aps \) booted problems i'm still going shareware comes drive 's pretty good assortment drive fan bit would like , think 'll ok speed seems good , although n't run objective tests also seems spin pretty quickly hit power switch , almost immediately power mac without problems booting drive observations case plastic \( good quality , though \) older syquest case metal one led , normally green , red drive accessed data point , rich richard c long long mcntsh enet dec com ludicrous speed ! ! go ! ! ! ! ! decwrl ! mcntsh enet dec com ! long dark helmet long mcntsh dec decwrl enet dec com
long mcntsh enet dec com \( rich long \) subject monitors kept 24 hours day \? \? \? organization digital equipment corporation lines 19 article exodus eng sun com , gsager heliacal eng sun com \( gary \) writes btw encouraging employees power monitors leaving work , pointed done monitors power switch front indication deleted pet peeve mine wish companies would put power switches front equipment ! apple monitor switch front , would happily power night almost every piece computer equipment use switch back \( including external hard drives modems \? \) hope front mounted switches become norm , soon rich richard c long long mcntsh enet dec com ludicrous speed ! ! go ! ! ! ! ! decwrl ! mcntsh enet dec com ! long dark helmet long mcntsh dec decwrl enet dec com
douce tfsquad mn org \( andrew geweke \) subject lc ii slowdowns \? organization tfsquad public access usenet , st paul mn \( 1 612 291 \) lines 29 drg biomath mda uth tmc edu \( david gutierrez \) writes article tfsquad mn org douce tfsquad mn org \( andrew geweke \) writes currently managing , among many labs , lab three lc iis , mac plus 45 mb external hd , laserwriter ii ntx problem \? lc iis seem intermittently slow snail 's pace happens intermittently macs department , ranging iisi 's quadra 950 end slowdown immediately unplugging ethernet cable mac seems something network puts packet storms every days storms effect making macs slow crawl thank much computers behave exactly like 're describing , question running lowest budgets , public education analyze \? need sort packet counter exist , \? thanks , andrew geweke douce tfsquad mn org \( andrew geweke \) firing squad bbs , public access usenet mail news 1 612 291 saint paul , minnesota
bob advtech uswest com \( bob brown \) subject monitors kept 24 hours day \? \? \? \( long \) nntp posting host advtech uswest com organization uswest advanced technologies lines 24 article npri6 npri com , murphy npri6 npri com \( david p murphy \) wrote cnn factiod last months stated 40 computers u left 24 hours day , 7 days week n't recall cnn 's source ljones utkvx utk edu \( leslie jones \) yeah , big mainframes monitors factoid fabricated corrupted tidbit ordinary information \( diluted \) ok murphy npri6 npri com \( systems programmer large \) every one dead 602 cameron st great game finished alexandria , va \( 703 \) 683 9090 , kim bob brown
bob advtech uswest com \( bob brown \) subject monitors kept 24 hrs day \( long \) nntp posting host advtech uswest com organization uswest advanced technologies lines 68 article npri6 npri com , murphy npri6 npri com \( david p murphy \) wrote cnn factiod last months stated 40 computers u left 24 hours day , 7 days week n't recall cnn 's source ljones utkvx utk edu \( leslie jones \) 's something add discussion newsgroups misc activism progressive james p reynolds jpr1 lehigh edu subject 're using , turn ! date mon , 22 mar 1993 06 50 14 gmt lines 53 research shown majority time united states' 30 35 million personal computers , actively used addition , 30 40 percent left running night weekends computer equipment fastest growing private sector use electricity computers alone believed account five percent commercial electricity consumption , may account ten percent year 2000 one leave 're done , would big environmental benefit would turn 're using takes second two also , majority power computer uses consumed computer , monitor ca n't turn computer , please turn monitor u environmental protection agency formed alliance computer manufacturers promote introduction energy efficient pcs power automatically used thus reduce air pollution caused power generation new computers save enough electricity power vermont new hampshire save 1 billion u dollars annual electricity bills look special epa energy star logo buy computers available one two years according epa studies , energy saved prevent co2 emissions 20 million tons annually , equivalent five million automobiles also , 140 , 000 tons 75 , 000 tons nitrogen oxide emissions saved major pollutants responsible acid rain please part responsible 're using , turn information herein partially taken 1993 information please almanac , page 573 , u protection agency 's environmental news please redistribute message every computer bulletin board , network , memo system , etc think archive post every often let 's get word everyone need responsible way consume jim reynolds end
russotto eng umd edu \( matthew russotto \) subject monitors kept 24 hours day \? \? \? organization project glue , university maryland , college park lines 22 distribution world nntp posting host tea eng umd edu article srvr1 engin umich edu chyang engin umich edu \( chung hsiung yang \) writes article utkvx utk edu ljones utkvx utk edu \( leslie jones \) writes cnn factiod last months stated 40 computers u left 24 hours day , 7 days week n't recall cnn 's source yeah , probably included industries educational institutions uses mostly work stations \( suns , dec , ibm etc etc \) turns monitor left untouched 5 min none suns , , 've used turned monitor automatically matthew russotto russotto eng umd edu russotto wam umd edu news readers expect disclaimer say police searches seizures make use force \( responsible bodily harm resulting following advice \)
news news claremont edu \( news system \) subject svga monitors centris \( real story \) organization harvey mudd college , claremont ca 91711 lines 1
markp ccu1 aukuni ac nz \( mark perry \) subject iif iig slot \? article ccu1 1993apr23 1065 organization university auckland , new zealand lines 6 seems p pds slot printers \? mark law aukuni ac nz perry , faculty law , auckland university , new zealand
jonathan l andrew cmu edu subject active matrix clr pb organization junior , im mcs cit track , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 7 nntp posting host po3 andrew cmu edu know apple working active matrix color powerbook going come heard rumor two months another seen macworld expo boston \? 's word \? jon andrew cmu edu
silver ucs indiana edu \( chang hsu liu \) subject monitors kept 24 hours day \? \? \? nntp posting host silver ucs indiana edu organization indiana university lines 59 james p reynolds jpr1 ns1 cc lehigh edu organization lehigh university subject 're using , turn ! multiple recipients list c18 l c18 l psuvm bitnet research shown majority time united states' 30 35 million personal computers , actively used addition , 30 40 percent left running night weekends computer equipment fastest growing private sector use electricity computers alone believed account five percent commercial electricity consumption , may account ten percent year 2000 one leave 're done , would big environmental benefit would turn 're using takes second two also , majority power computer uses consumed computer , monitor ca n't turn computer , please turn monitor u environmental protection agency formed alliance computer manufacturers promote introduction energy efficient pcs power automatically used thus reduce air pollution caused power generation new computers save enough electricity power vermont new hampshire save 1 billion u dollars annual electricity bills look special epa energy star logo buy computers available one two years according epa studies , energy saved prevent co2 emissions 20 million tons annually , equivalent five million automobiles also , 140 , 000 tons 75 , 000 tons nitrogen oxide emissions saved major pollutants responsible acid rain please part responsible 're using , turn information herein partially taken 1993 information please almanac , page 573 , u protection agency 's environmental news please redistribute message every computer bulletin board , network , memo system , etc think archive post every often let 's get word everyone need responsible way consume jim reynolds university michigan
nmt edu \( willie chang \) subject 's chime \? organization new mexico tech lines 13 happened classic ii startup , usual powerup tone , chimes \( kinda like \( 1st \) mi \( 1st \) sol \( 1st \) \( 2nd \) 1st c 1st e 1st g 2nd c music scale \) , hanged giving happy mac powerup asked ca n't remember answer 've tried find answer faqs ftp sites avail anyone tell unusual chimes mean \? spurious memory check error \? thanks willie
diana cair du edu \( chris \) subject centris 610 clock adjustment \? organization university denver , denver , colorado distribution usa lines 11 reading review centris 610 months macworld reviewer said 4 could make adjustment clock speed chip change 20mhz 25mhz n't heard , n't think 040 chip replacement \( fpu \) seen much talk anyone ideas \? du edu
guykuo carson u washington edu \( guy kuo \) subject centris 610 clock adjustment \? article shelley distribution usa organization university washington lines 2 nntp posting host carson u washington edu article probably referring changing clock oscillator manner similar done quadra 700 's iisi 's n't read report actually done centris 610 supposedly also works q900 , q950 centris 650 machines
thewho athena mit edu \( derek fong \) subject 14 rgb owners kind power cable came monitor \? organization massachusetts institute technology lines 30 nntp posting host alfredo mit edu 's scoop past two years , using se 30 sony 1304s video card past month , bought quadra 800 using sony se 30 shipped home father planning getting apple 14 monitor \( trinitron one \) question kind power cord get apple monitor come two types \? recall , one hook power cord apple monitor back machine quadra 800 however , father 's se 30 , extra plug allows use se 30 's power supply needs plug socket separately monitor come cable allow \? buy different cable \? yes , purchase cable \? apple kind enough provide types cables \? thanks advance , derek derek fong email thewho plume mit edu dept physical oceanography thewho darla edu bldg 54 clark laboratory 317 massachusetts institute technology woods hole oceanographic institution cambridge , 02139 woods hole , \( 617 \) 253 2922 \( 508 \) 457 2000
drlovemd jhunix hcf jhu edu \( steve liu \) subject macintosh weenies suck scsi disks ! ! ! organization homewood academic computing , johns hopkins university , baltimore , md , usa lines 24 distribution usa nntp posting host jhunix hcf jhu edu article hawk cs ukans edu hawk cs ukans edu \( unknown class user \) writes think subject title says anybody relies scsi dick pain ass ! ! looks like someone left terminal unattended tttttt eeeee vv vv eeeee tt ee vv vv ee tt eeee vv vv eeee steve liu tt ee vvv ee drlovemd jhunix hcf jhu edu tt eeeee v eeeee drlovemd jhuvms hcf jhu edu
thewho athena mit edu \( derek fong \) subject get power cord plug non apple monitor quadra power supply \? organization massachusetts institute technology lines 23 nntp posting host alfredo mit edu sony 1304s would like hook get power though quadra 800 's power supply ie , apple monitor , could plug monitor directly computer hit power button keyboard , monitor computer go , shut , go extension cord type cable buy allows plug existing power cord plug extension cable quadra \? thoughts comments would appreciated , thanks advance , derek derek fong email thewho plume mit edu dept physical oceanography thewho darla edu bldg 54 clark laboratory 317 massachusetts institute technology woods hole oceanographic institution cambridge , 02139 woods hole , \( 617 \) 253 2922 \( 508 \) 457 2000
chyang engin umich edu \( chung hsiung yang \) subject monitors kept 24 hours day \? \? \? article srvr1 distribution world organization university michigan engineering , ann arbor lines 31 nntp posting host engin umich edu article mojo eng umd edu russotto eng umd edu \( matthew russotto \) writes article srvr1 engin umich edu chyang engin umich edu \( chung hsiung yang \) writes article utkvx utk edu ljones utkvx utk edu \( leslie jones \) writes cnn factiod last months stated 40 computers u left 24 hours day , 7 days week n't recall cnn 's source yeah , probably included industries educational institutions uses mostly work stations \( suns , dec , ibm etc etc \) turns monitor left untouched 5 min none suns , , 've used turned monitor automatically maybe contact schools officials make consider installing necessary softwares allows unix works stations shuts monitor left untouched save lot energy chung yang matthew russotto russotto eng umd edu russotto wam umd edu news readers expect disclaimer say police searches seizures make use force \( responsible bodily harm resulting following advice \)
alexander samuel mcdiarmid am2o andrew cmu edu subject svga monitors centris \( real story \) organization sophomore , mechanical engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 48 nntp posting host po2 andrew cmu edu reply news claremont edu origional bit missing long short follows origional poster asked could use old vga svga monitor centris \( hence title \) answer ot question unqualified yes use old vga svga monitor centris need adaptor \( use mac vga q james engineering \( 510 \) 525 7350 \) run two machines adaptor mentioned convert centris three row vga svga 25 \( \? \) pin adaptor monitor , special interest disclaimer answer correct using vga monitor 600x400 resolution monitor sync horizontal adaptor allow choose 800x600 resolution \( prefer 1604s \) question matching adaptors sync rates would advocate calling james engineering seem clue comment person said n't bother calling apple treat like idiot totally untrue apple treat like f king idiot even considering going third party want treatment wants pay support line \( supposedly one \) still fu clue personal experience also tech vga monitor makers n't see extend macs \( sony , magnavox \) addition find info call dealers unless find sync rates elsewhere ads like hardware fits \( \( \( ! \) rate monitor resolutions give favorable rating \( usually means get use specialized application video card \) \( e well get resolution 5 , 9 super sock monitor let display two full pages side side need reasonably priced eater video board 27 , 000 give ultra fast horizontal sync rate six fast three khz vertical \) note sony 1604 least centris 610 built video board using 832x624 adaptor , inch sides image adjusting horizontal width favorably possible using 800x600 adaptor reduced half inch
thomas kephart kephart snowhite eeap cwru edu subject monitors kept 24 hours day \? \? \? organization case school engineering lines 32 distribution world nntp posting host b62182 student cwru edu x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d20 x xxmessage id b62182 student cwru edu x xxdate fri , 23 apr 93 02 10 26 gmt article usenet ucs indiana edu chang hsu liu , silver ucs indiana edu writes james p reynolds jpr1 ns1 cc lehigh edu organization lehigh university subject 're using , turn ! multiple recipients list c18 l c18 l psuvm bitnet research shown majority time united states' 30 35 million personal computers , quote deleted every often let 's get word everyone need responsible way consume jim reynolds university michigan ok , question \? people copy article , new thing add post name \? i'm picking person , 've seen mistake \? missing something \? unknown net missed somewhere \? skip quoted material , since 've already read , look non quoted material , get name addition supposed agree , second \? sorry wondering missed something somewhere along line
avery gestalt stanford edu \( avery wang \) subject powerbook duo memory system slow organization dso , stanford university lines 17 hi hardware gurus know kind memory architecture apple uses powerbook duos \? powerbook general \? factors make duo 210 slow compared desktop machine running processor speed \( 25mhz 68030 \) \? many wait states memory system , etc \? kind data bus use \? 32 bit 16 bit \? 's still slow plugged duodock anyone know general kind notebook manufacturers take making notebooks \? heard 486dx2 66 notebook getting whopping 10 mips rating similar desktop machine getting 3 times , guess avery
carlo merlin cvs rochester edu \( carlo \) subject quadra 950 marginal video \? summary sync problems multiple boards nntp posting host merlin cvs rochester edu organization university rochester , rochester ny lines 61 problem quadra 950 stumped couple techs sent us vendor , well us \) quadra ram , 2mb vram large disk \( think \) happens certain variable interval time video circuitry vertical sync quite apparent mac cpu still ok , problem really seems lie video circuitry , since still save documents , quit , even pull menus etc \( display scrolling lik crazy , 's pretty hard hit menu items \) original logic board replaced twice , problem occurring boards although occurrences varied first board problem every 1hr , often cache turned \( yes \) symptom obviously related video circuitry \( cache cpu right \? \) second board problem every 10 minutes \( keep , rather put original back \) , current board problem lot less often \( gone week without , twice within hour yesterday \) technicians come try figure seemed pretty sharp tried number sensible things \( previously tried anyway \) included swapping ram swapping vram swapping monitors \( 3 different 13 apple rgb 2 16 apple rgb \) swapping cables hd booting floppy sacrificing various small mammals facts put rasterops 32 nubus , problem fixed \( occur internal video video \) vendor cannot reproduce problem back shop boards exhibit lab apple said getting little bit pissed shipping us boards cannot find anything wrong , getting shipped back faulty according us speculations bet neither apple vendor tested boards much ram vram , may something finding hard reproduce problem \( though reproduce 4mb ram , probably red herring \) vendor 's representative blames claims walls metal interferes mac 's operation another 950 lab works like charm \( though 's exact spot \) please n't tell probably , want believe 's probably , since badges get past security entrance site anyone ideas \? please \? please email well posting cause seem spending lot time rebooting mac lately lot less time available read news ! \) thank advance carlo nasa ames research center carlo vision arc nasa gov carlo cvs rochester edu carlo white stanford edu always remember choice carlo vision arc nasa gov
werner soe berkeley edu \( john werner \) subject 14 rgb owners kind power cable came monitor \? organization uc berkeley school education lines 18 distribution world nntp posting host soe berkeley edu article senator bedfellow mit edu , thewho athena mit edu \( derek fong \) wrote kind power cord get apple monitor come two types \? recently bought lc ii 14 monitor monitor comes type power cable plugs switched outlet back larger macs since lc ii n't one outlets , extra standard power cable included computer use monitor computer box , monitor box 's cables particularly expensive , though 10 15 john werner werner soe berkeley edu uc berkeley school education 510 596
thomas tornblom nexus comm se \( thomas tornblom \) subject asante ethernet adapter lciii math chip reply andy ie utoronto ca 's message tue , 20 apr 1993 22 02 25 gmt organization communicator nexus ab lines 24 article ie utoronto ca andy ie utoronto ca \( andy sun \) writes hi , told local sales asante come lciii pds ethernet adapter optional 68882 socket board question fpu performance degrade put 68882 pds card socket instead motherboard \? intuitively , math co processor always placed close cpu , sure good apple 's called processor direct slot comes throughout anyone know answer experience asante lciii ethernet adapter \? thanks advance 've heard pds slot clock 16mhz , compatible old lc style boards , fpu socket close cpu clocked 25mhz guess board designed lciii get 25mhz clock extended pds socket real life thomas rnblom email thomas tornblom nexus comm se snail mail communicator nexus ab phone 46 18 171814 box 857 fax 46 18 696516 751 08 uppsala , sweden
ferch ucs ubc ca \( les ferch \) subject get power cord plug non apple monitor quadra power supply \? organization university british columbia lines 20 nntp posting host swiss ucs ubc ca senator bedfellow mit edu thewho athena mit edu \( derek fong \) writes extension cord type cable buy allows plug existing power cord plug extension cable quadra \? two approaches 1 power cord kind back monitor \( common \) get replacement power cord go monitor back computer 2 get connects plug end existing power cord provides proper end plugs back computer cost \( aprox 5 \) available many computer stores \( clone dealers usually better things good prices \) power cords standard , n't go looking special thing mac store
netcom com \( mei mei su \) subject hardware fits mail order keywords mail order organization corporation distribution usa lines 20 anyone dealt hardware fits seen ad macworld macuser decided try needed new disk result satisfactory wondering isolated case like send letter president hardware fits anyone know address \? address one return products \? mei mei su software engineer email tr portal com corporation netcom com disclaimer statement nothing official \)
wier merlin etsu edu \( bob wier \) subject radius \? organization east texas state university lines 22 opportunity buy radius board 1 3 normal street price , believe due change board architecture vaguely , maybe remember kind serious problem board , composite , pal , video , composite , etc plus also generating quicktime movies , etc macweek generally complimentary april 12th issue anyone information board , one , upgrade , etc 'd curious hear thanks ! b w insert usual disclaimers bob wier , east texas state u , commerce , texas wier merlin etsu edu \( watch address change \)
bredell tdb uu se \( mats bredell \) subject rumours new duos ! ! ! ! ! reply mats bredell udac uu se organization uppsala university computing center \( udac \) x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 20 brian v hughes \( hades coos dartmouth edu \) wrote bredell tdb uu se \( mats bredell \) writes official paper got apple new docking station , apple called duodock plus paper \? 's price list dartmouth since released never called duodock plus paper apple sweden announced new products \( new docking station one \) , paper arrived showed price list n't know 's still called duodock plus price list , could mistake someone apple sweden mats mats bredell mats bredell udac uu se uppsala university computing center \( udac \) ph 46 18 department medical systems fax 46 18 sweden think straight gay !
brad welch com \( brad welch \) subject clock speed lines 11 hello , new area read upgrades lc ii , modification make thing run faster ! performa 400 lc would homemade speed upgrade work \? \? thanks brad
gene theporch raider net \( gene wright \) subject mac portable vs powerbook 100 answers \( \? \) organization macinteresteds nashville , tn lines 27 eric choi p5 f175 n2240 z1 fidonet org \( eric choi \) writes internal hard drive upgraded larger capacity \? w third party modem greater 2400 bps \? fax option \? p notice batteries thru apple catalog eric choi internet eric choi p5 f175 n2240 z1 fidonet org psi makes internal fax modem map portable \( 1 800 622 \) asks much \( retail 450 \) 'd buy external save 350 manufacturer still makes internal hd 's portable , 're listed catalog magazines apple stuff find bookstores see 'll post , , might want add small lightweight external hd built powerbooks 'd able use new computer day mac portable questions , 'll cry uncle n't blame voted gene theporch raider net \( gene wright \) theporch raider net 615 297 7951 macinteresteds nashville
gene jackatak raider net \( gene wright \) subject outbound laptops questions looking answers organization jack 's amazing cockroach capitalist ventures lines 16 since demise outbound company , options would exist buy one laptops \? \( 1 \) since \( , , etc \) use mac plus roms , wo n't severly limit using future applications \? \( 2 \) reasonable price one laptops \? prices 've seen seem extremely high considering limited choices \( 3 \) reliable proven \? answers would helpful gene jackatak raider net \( gene wright \) jackatak raider net \( 615 \) 377 5980
cs umu se \( \) subject stereo sound problem \( \? \) mac games organization dep info proc , umea univ , sweden lines 35 1993apr19 gallant apple com steve bollinger buzz apple com writes use sound manager work fine machines story developers cheat ! really , absolutely , positively allowed , i'm going say anyway stop cheating sound ! really soon , sorry , even without external speakers disappointed sound future hardware grace period end sound manager understandable , works pretty well work even better soon , use n't silly using sound manager quadra well , using sm low end machines n't simply work decent action game since steals much time cpu fact writing directly hardware se , possible 4 simultaneous channels sampled sound \( \) cost approx 8000 cycles exactly would using sm , pray tell \? correct thing use sm machines carry extra load using sm means , write directly sound hardware machines ca n't 's politically correct thing , point view internet cs umu se tel 46 90 department computer science , university umea , umea , sweden
lars lth se subject duo price reduction \? x xxmessage id pomona lth se x xxdate fri , 23 apr 93 12 23 59 gmt nntp posting host pomona organization department applied electronics x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d17 lines 23 michigan state university pricing 210 systems powerbook duo portable mac powerbook duo 210 4m ram 80m hd 1528 98 promotion expires 06 13 93 hmm , new duo machines released 07 13 93 \? sincerely , lars lars email lth se lund university phone int 46 46 10 95 13 dept applied electronics fax int 46 46 12 99 48 p box 118 221 00 lund sweden
oueichek imag fr \( ibaa oueichek \) subject help identifying card nntp posting host organization imag institute , university grenoble , france x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 lines 23 ethernet card took old lc card manufactured asante read asante tech , inc copyright 1991 lc rev b card fpu socket provides thin ethernet connector 's another connector phone connectors questions card work model lc serie \? , given 's pds card , work iisi pds slot \? think may lc 16 bit wide slots 's card \? anyone interested \? ship cee country sham \( u \) ya tha \( \) \( u \) lam \( \) ibaa oueichek oueichek imag imag fr ya jamal \( al \) \( \) fi \( l \) \( \) lab de genie informatique \( lgi \) \( \) \( \) \( u \) fi imag , \( \) ala \( sh \) \( \) 46 , av felix , grenoble
callan csd4 csd uwm edu \( joel e callan \) subject macintosh weenies suck scsi disks ! ! ! organization university wisconsin milwaukee lines 21 distribution usa reply callan csd4 csd uwm edu nntp posting host 129 89 7 4 originator callan csd4 csd uwm edu article hawk cs ukans edu , hawk cs ukans edu \( unknown class user \) think subject title says anybody relies scsi dick pain ass ! ! saying things like one believe ca n't get \( scsi \) work setup \( bad \) 've daisy chained 4 scsi devices mac without problem \( limit 7 scsi devices daisy chain \) n't working , 's really better state problem \( unless really intend try get nasty e mail , case perhaps would better posting alt type newsgroup \) ` callan csd4 csd uwm edu joel e callan hey , think answer \? n street may sit tack success milwaukee , wi rise occasion ! ` callan csd4 csd uwm edu joel e callan hey , think answer \? n street may sit tack success milwaukee , wi rise occasion !
oueichek imag fr \( ibaa oueichek \) subject simms prices nntp posting host organization imag institute , university grenoble , france x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 lines 17 i'm looking best source simms usa i'm looking lowest prices , rather best quality simms one lowest rate defective simms know chip merchant good prices seems high rate returned simms anyone know many simms purchase obtain quantity discount \? thank sham \( u \) ya tha \( \) \( u \) lam \( \) ibaa oueichek oueichek imag imag fr ya jamal \( al \) \( \) fi \( l \) \( \) lab de genie informatique \( lgi \) \( \) \( \) \( u \) fi imag , \( \) ala \( sh \) \( \) 46 , av felix , grenoble
sun soe clarkson edu \( peter l \) subject x86 680x0 \? \? \( compare \? \) organization clarkson university lines 25 nntp posting host sun soe clarkson edu 2545500 jeff lab queensu ca \( peter pundy \) writes even better 68000 based amiga 2000 perform daily tasks compared 68030 based iici answer , except cases , get butt kicked amiga similar reason people work , used seeing sco unix running 486 , suprised see sun 3 home running faster w 16mhz 68020 sun designed ground unix , pc n't need processor run windows basic design box wrong \( would 've better ms put windows plug rom card day one \( priced 24 95 \) people loved apple right idea , stumbled bit execution pete peter l sun soe clarkson edu e mail saves trees documentation also makes enable software 518 877 8600 , world smaller
dale adams gateway qm apple com \( dale adams \) subject quadra 950 marginal video \? organization apple computer , inc , cupertino , ca lines 32 article 1993apr23 1967 galileo cc rochester edu carlo merlin cvs rochester edu \( carlo \) writes problem quadra 950 stumped couple techs sent us vendor , well us \) quadra ram , 2mb vram large disk \( think \) happens certain variable interval time video circuitry vertical sync quite apparent mac cpu still ok , problem really seems lie video circuitry , since still save documents , quit , even pull menus etc \( display scrolling lik crazy , 's pretty hard hit menu items \) info deleted anyone ideas \? please \? please email well posting cause seem spending lot time rebooting mac lately lot less time available read news ! \) sure 's problem caused software \? 've seen sort effect runaway program \( could caused init conflict , instance \) accidentally register video hardware tried booting extensions letting q950 sit finder \? might also want try changing 24 bit addressing \( yes , know ca n't access full 64 mb ram 's experiment \) video hardware registers ca n't accessed another thing try measure use something like change pixel depth display \( \) video hardware registers may allow sync restored dale adams
distribution world elenay creations tcs las vegas nv us \( anthony saxton \) organization cyber sanctum bbs 702 435 subject apple 8 24 gc video card lines 18 friend mine recently acquired 8 ! 24 gc card iisi wondering always starts black white know numerous reports worth gc , wondering anyone could elaborate little subject replies encouraged thanks ad vance joe kasanic 've similar problems w board types , problem result 8 24gc board ! try pram holding command option p r startup ! reset everything previous preferences \( date time remain intact ! \) , video board start remembering 's previous settings ! anthony saxton elenay creations
christopher bruce andrew cmu edu subject hardware fits mail order organization senior , chemistry , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 9 distribution usa nntp posting host po5 andrew cmu edu reply netcom com ordered external floppy drive 2 years ago placed order , said stock would ship next day week passed drive called said stock drive ship 2 weeks since needed drive right away \( internal hard drive floppy dead \) cancelled order n't dealt since chris andrew cmu edu
grumman com \( al chang \) subject appletalk imagewriter lq compatible needed reply cec uchile cl 's message thu , 22 apr 1993 14 19 48 gmt organization grumman corporation lines 24 article 1993apr22 dcc uchile cl cec uchile cl \( \) writes since image writer lq discontinued , apple talk printer 11 15 continous paper printer would like know possibility connect ibm compatible printer apple talk net directly \( net serial hardware \) , need software 've found quite solution yet following comes macuser 's grappler dot matrix printer interface cartridge emulates imagewriter includes networking software allows multiple users 159 orange micro 714 779 find information , please let know future problem , anyone else information please post thanks al
brown grumman com \( richard brown \) subject recommendation laser printer organization grumman data systems lines 3 i'm looking recommendations laser printer used mostly text single user n't need postscript printer advice would appreciated
hades coos dartmouth edu \( brian v hughes \) subject monitors kept 24 hours day \? \? \? reply hades dartmouth edu organization dartmouth college , hanover , nh disclaimer personally , really n't care think speak moderator rec arts comics info lines 11 roy mchip00 med nyu edu \( roy smith \) writes wonder hard would \( e would add cost \) design desktop machines power saver feature built would reduce power consumption automatically machine idle amount time hard design color classic , since 's monitor behaves manner hades
hades coos dartmouth edu \( brian v hughes \) subject performa lc \? \? \? reply hades dartmouth edu organization dartmouth college , hanover , nh disclaimer personally , really n't care think speak moderator rec arts comics info lines 34 demon desire wright edu \( boomer \) writes performa 200 classic ii performa 400 lc ii performa 405 lcii 4 80 monitor , modem software performa 430 lcii 4 120 w monitor , modem software performa 4xx lc iii performa 450 lciii monitor , modem software detect trend people performas made low cost business solutions 4xx bundled software , modems , etc performas made low cost , widely distributed \( sold sears \) home machines , business machines developed compete retail outlet home computer market retail price might able get discount shop around sears probably going best price around , time , based number purchase stuff like far monitors go , buy 3rd party much cheaper really newer \( 405 , 430 , 450 \) come really third party monitor apple put name called performa plus display essentially vga monitor , quite cheap hades
orion oac uci edu \( eric \) subject apple 8 24 gc video card nntp posting host orion oac uci edu organization university california , irvine lines 17 article 1993apr22 tcs las vegas nv us elenay creations tcs las vegas nv us \( anthony saxton \) writes friend mine recently acquired 8 ! 24 gc card iisi wondering always starts black white know numerous reports worth gc , wondering anyone could elaborate little subject replies encouraged thanks ad vance may emailed , iisi 's power supply rated handle gc board remember si came everyone complained 's power supply one result apple providing low cost computer think got lot flack relatively high end computer \( time anyways \) could n't even support video board even n't causing problems , might develop one later eric
hades coos dartmouth edu \( brian v hughes \) subject rumours new duos ! ! ! ! ! reply hades dartmouth edu organization dartmouth college , hanover , nh disclaimer personally , really n't care think speak moderator rec arts comics info lines 20 bredell tdb uu se \( mats bredell \) writes paper apple sweden announced new products \( new docking station one \) , paper arrived showed price list n't know 's still called duodock plus price list , could mistake someone apple sweden ah ok n't realize talking apple division , main division , one contains people feel correct names configurations majority apple customers , generally assumed talking say apple least 's always newsgroup apple divisions , apparantly , free change names configurations feel like know apple canada kind stuff time 's mistake , 's apple sweden giving different name apple product calls hades
organization queen 's university kingston qucdn queensu ca subject wanted adb mouse , lines 2 wanted apple adb mouse keyboard contact paul email address asap paul g
kevin kevinh apple com subject iif iig slot \? x useragent nuntius v1 1 organization apple computer , inc lines 13 article 1993apr23 1065 ccu1 aukuni ac nz mark perry , markp ccu1 aukuni ac nz writes seems p pds slot printers \? factory testing slot test rig connects connector verifies proper board operation kevin kevin disclaimer nothing say anything kevinh apple com apple computer red zone portable beer brewer loading unloading passenger vehicles
organization queen 's university kingston qucdn queensu ca subject apple 's new lines 4 people tell apple 's new keyboard , one designed ergonomically friendly \? begun experience wrist hand pains using standard keyboard , using powerbook people similar experiences tell \? replies email please paul g
lepard mayo edu \( kevin lepard \) subject monitor pinouts needed reply lepard mayo edu organization mayo foundation lines 16 wondering someone could send pinouts apple 13 14 rgb monitors parts docs seem misplaced around thanks lot help kevin kevin lepard internet lepard mayo edu disclaimer opinions mine alone necessarily represent mayo foundation , mayo clinic , person institution
ucsnews sdsu edu \( charles f \) subject monitors kept 24 hours day \? \? \? organization san diego state university computing services lines 25 distribution world nntp posting host ucssun1 sdsu edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 gary \( gsager heliacal eng sun com \) wrote btw encouraging employees power monitors leaving work , pointed done monitors power switch front indication monitors power switches rear designed tolerate lots power cycling may apply monitors use , might worth checking happen monitor switch back i'm expert , spent much much life looking power switch , brightness control , de gauss , etc , etc , etc firm belief reason controls switches knobs whatever places hard reach designers put deliberately real question weather stupidity , charles unable locate coffee operator halted ucssun1 sdsu edu
kelleyb austin ibm com \( kelley boylan \) subject monitors kept 24 hours day \? \? \? originator kelleyb kelleyb austin ibm com reply kelleyb austin ibm com organization ibm austin , powerpc lines 27 research shown majority time united states' 30 35 million personal computers , quote deleted ok , question \? people copy article , new thing add post name \? i'm picking person , 've seen mistake \? missing something \? unknown net missed somewhere \? skip quoted material , since 've already read , look non quoted material , get name addition supposed agree , second \? sorry wondering missed something somewhere along line copy relevant articles like local bbses everyone newsgroup access \) kelley thomas kelley boylan , powerpc , ibm austin , kelleyb austin ibm com buy pay opinions
especkma reed edu \( erik speckman \) subject drive speeds differ \? \? article reed 1993apr23 organization reed college , portland , oregon lines 18 article 1993apr22 mcontent apana org au thomas n krebs mcontent apana org au writes likely explanation may something fact greater density information exists larger capacity disk drive smaller one running drive mac would recommend shareware utility called tests seek , scsi throughput rotational speed utility let know differences drives views expressed posting individual author bbs number \( 613 \) 848 1346 maccontent first iconic bbs ! larger drives tend platters allow adjacent bits read parallel resulting higher throughput also higher speeds leads increased throughput reduced seek times \( due reduction rotational latency \) erik speckman
bongo cc utexas edu \( marc bizer \) subject deskwriter driver v3 1 problems organization university texas austin lines 11 x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d20 x xxmessage id slip 172 ots utexas edu x xxdate fri , 23 apr 93 15 00 21 gmt article husc harvard edu laurence byrne , harvard edu writes anyone success experience hp deskwriter v3 1 drivers \? new driver nice save default option claims record paper size , font substitution settings etc future happened anyone printing beep heard message displayed sort window closed finder enough memory \? one suffering delusion \? marc bizer
h01sav dsyibm desy de \( michael savitski \) subject cd300 question organization desy lines 19 hi , ! mac lc consider buying cd300 've told , however , 1 double speed cd300 achievable machines scsi 2 2 double speed prerequisite photocd multisession capability , need 3 means seem gain nothing compared , say cd150 comments \? thanx michael savitski tel \( 040 \) 8998 desy elektronen synchrotron fax \( 040 \) 8998 85 , hamburg 52 , germany \( 040 \) 8994 internet h01sav dsyibm desy de decnet savitski
ucla edu \( chad jones \) subject help identifying card x useragent nuntius v1 1 nntp posting host 128 97 27 7 organization university california los angeles lines 27 article imag fr ibaa oueichek , oueichek imag fr writes ethernet card took old lc card manufactured asante read asante tech , inc copyright 1991 lc rev b card fpu socket provides thin ethernet connector 's another connector phone connectors questions card work model lc serie \? , given 's pds card , work iisi pds slot \? think may lc 16 bit wide slots probably wo n't work lc ones lc ii rev , wo n't work iisi 's pds slot since 's 68030 pds , lc 68020 pds iisi se 30 share kind card 's card \? 's 10baset ethernet connector chad e jones days might fill network manager laughter break days ucla physiological science might feel shaft light make way ucla edu across face 'll \( 310 \) 825 voice know meant see signs \( 310 \) 206 fax know meaning 10 , 000
b91926 fnclub fnal gov \( david sachs \) subject 's chime \? organization fermi national accelerator laboratory , batavia il lines 18 distribution usa nntp posting host fnclub fnal gov article 1993apr22 nmt edu , nmt edu \( willie chang \) writes happened classic ii startup , usual powerup tone , chimes \( kinda like \( 1st \) mi \( 1st \) sol \( 1st \) \( 2nd \) 1st c 1st e 1st g 2nd c music scale \) , hanged giving happy mac powerup asked ca n't remember answer 've tried find answer faqs ftp sites avail anyone tell unusual chimes mean \? spurious memory check error \? thanks willie chimes indicate hardware failure type system startup one thing cause chimes cable become bit loose next time power computer , check cables tight
cco caltech edu \( martin w lin \) subject swii se system 6 0 8 7 1 \? organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 12 nntp posting host sandman caltech edu i'm planning getting stylewriter ii mac se \( 2 5 mb ram , hd , two 800k floppy drives \) recommendations whether running system 6 0 8 better worse switching 7 1 n't much real work machine , would like keep word processing \( using word 4 n't see much advantage going word 5 , since slower \) help comments would appreciated thanks advance martin lin cco caltech edu
opstad apple com \( david opstad \) subject quickdraw gx \( rest inside mac 's due \? \) organization apple computer inc , cupertino , ca lines 17 nntp posting host apple com article 1993apr13 msc cornell edu maynard leah msc cornell edu \( maynard j \) writes gx take place 32 bit qd add \? right 32 bit kinda aesthetically pain places hacks upon hacks maintain compatibility original qd think things like cast would lot cleaner ditch entire mess start get \? maynard sorry delay replying message showed today \( 23 apr \) apple com quickdraw gx replacement quickdraw two live quite happily together may write app uses gx want , may write hybrid app uses dave
meiko com \( robert \) subject hp deskjet 500c work \? organization meiko scientific inc , waltham , lines 15 distribution usa nntp posting host barney meiko com boring sister hp deskjet 500c weekend wondering drivers available would allow use mac se 30 copy think driver 500c would happy get working black white , away get color working would better ideas someone \? regards , robert r meiko com customer support engineer tele \( 617 \) 890 meiko scientific corporation fax \( 617 \) 890 rd waltham , 02154
sunnyt coding bchs uh edu subject upgrading mac plus se use superdrive organization university houston lines 25 reply ln63sdm sdcc4 ucsd edu nntp posting host franklin bchs uh edu article apr 22 15 59 38 1993 andromeda rutgers edu murray andromeda rutgers edu \( murray \) writes hello , lab old macs \( ses pluses \) n't enough money buy new machines , considering buying superdrives old macs allow folks high density disks use equipment wondering experiences \( good bad \) people sort upgrade murray murray andromeda rutgers edu , n't shell couple dollars get floptical read high density disks \( 1 4 mb \) well flopticals \( 21 mb \) price flopticals right range 300 's 400 's sunny
guykuo carson u washington edu \( guy kuo \) subject cd300 question organization university washington lines 4 nntp posting host carson u washington edu double speed performance cd drive require scsi 2 interfacing resultant 300 kbps speed well within transfer rate lc words , believe given incorrect information
sunnyt coding bchs uh edu subject cd300 question organization university houston lines 32 reply ln63sdm sdcc4 ucsd edu nntp posting host franklin bchs uh edu article h01sav dsyibm desy de michael desy de h01sav dsyibm desy de \( michael savitski \) writes hi , ! mac lc consider buying cd300 've told , however , 1 double speed cd300 achievable machines scsi 2 wrong , cd300 \( external \) plain ol' scsi device 2 double speed prerequisite photocd multisession capability , need , multisession capability double speed two different thing newer cd rom drives capability multisession means put pictures photo cd first session , drive read display double speeds transfer type data \( excluding sound \) around double speed 3 means seem gain nothing compared , say cd150 cd150 multisession capable means lose ability add pictures first time \( must buy new cd \) finally , since cd150 double speed drive , require twice long transfer data \( excluding sound \) michael savitski tel \( 040 \) 8998 desy elektronen synchrotron fax \( 040 \) 8998 85 , hamburg 52 , germany \( 040 \) 8994 internet h01sav dsyibm desy de decnet savitski
distribution world hyerstay adrenaline com \( jason hyerstay \) organization adrenaline online , \( 802 \) 425 2332 , firstclass bbs subject mac oriented bbss lines 65 i'm also interested mac based bbs , chicago would greatly appreciate someone could post list bbss la area preferably \( 818 \) also \( 213 \) thanks dan sure thing firstclass systems area codes online burbank , ca \( 818 \) 840 drawing board heights , ca \( 818 \) 965 bps hollywood , ca \( 213 \) 874 1919 valley mug pasadena , ca \( 818 \) 790 5426 california \( , sorry \) middle earth anaheim , ca \( 714 \) 828 byte apple , ca \( 707 \) 747 planet bmug berkley , ca \( 510 \) 849 online burbank , ca \( 818 \) 840 gentle rain forum claremont , ca \( 909 \) 593 cyberspace bbs culver city , ca \( 310 \) 568 cupertino , ca \( 408 \) 736 boy 's club cupertino , ca \( 408 \) 261 meme net fresno , ca \( 209 \) 431 sierra mouse trap grass valley , ca \( 916 \) 265 drawing board heights , ca \( 818 \) 965 public bbs half moon bay , ca \( 415 \) 726 bps hollywood , ca \( 213 \) 874 1919 imagine net irvine , ca \( 714 \) 660 enet la canada , ca \( 818 \) 952 guerilla symbiotics la verne , ca \( 909 \) 593 macrocosm livermore , ca \( 510 \) 449 los altos , ca \( 415 \) 948 1349 los angeles , ca \( 310 \) 476 mt , ca \( 916 \) 926 foundation , ca \( 805 \) 255 valley mug pasadena , ca \( 818 \) 790 5426 bbs point , ca \( 805 \) 986 1216 servant christian bbs redondo beach , ca \( 310 \) 371 redondo beach , ca \( 310 \) 792 1 ez ok san diego , ca \( 619 \) 693 1575 \? san diego , ca \( 619 \) 450 harry 's bbs san francisco , ca \( 415 \) 824 bare bones bbs san jose , ca \( 408 \) 272 city connection san jose , ca \( 408 \) 272 santa barbara , ca \( 805 \) 964 mac magic santa barbara , ca \( 805 \) 682 's dimension santa clara , ca \( 408 \) 246 del cyborg santa cruz , ca \( 408 \) 457 beacon simi valley , ca \( 805 \) 522 channel z simi valley , ca \( 805 \) 581 jake mac man beach , ca \( 619 \) 775 bbs sunnyvale , ca \( 408 \) 733 walnut creek , ca \( 510 \) 210 0800 jason author 's opinions independant adrenaline online adrenaline online \( firstclass \) \( 802 \) 425 2332 , vt adrenaline com fido 325 124 fidonet usenet 120 conferences megs files dedicated mac users , , civil libertarians
kimbark uchicago edu \( steven lane \) subject quickdraw gx \( rest inside mac 's due \? \) reply midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 16 article apple com opstad apple com \( david opstad \) writes sorry delay replying message showed today \( 23 apr \) apple com quickdraw gx replacement quickdraw two live quite happily together may write app uses gx want , may write hybrid app uses something asked , n't think got answer , maybe lost answer , maybe 's obvious question \( \) gx stuff \( line docs etc \) available develop cds , go people developer 's program \? curious steve lane
apple com \( james \) subject first tech organization apple computer lines 5 anyone dealt first tech based austin tx \? , \? thanks , james
scott cs uiuc edu \( jay scott \) subject centris 610 flaky \? organization university illinois urbana champaign lines 19 rep dealer \( actually 's university order center , n't immediate financial interest \) , told lots problems centris 610 n't go details , mentioned problems floppy drive intermittent problems printing files sounded like hardware problems software compatibility problems machine 's recommending centris 610 anybody says consider centris 650 iivx \( would recommend iivx lciii n't know , 's said \) , net think \? dealer get one flaky machine , apple send c610 door early \? c610 working great , buggy \? jay scott scott cs uiuc edu
hk mlr forsythe stanford edu \( mark rogowsky \) subject cd300 question organization stanford university lines 48 distribution usa nntp posting host morrow stanford edu article h01sav dsyibm desy de michael desy de , h01sav dsyibm desy de \( michael savitski \) writes hi , ! mac lc consider buying cd300 've told , however , 1 double speed cd300 achievable machines scsi 2 completely false 2 double speed prerequisite photocd multisession capability , need also false need multisession capability multisession capability based firmware electronics , drive speed 'll admit , though , seen multisession capable drive n't double speed 3 means seem gain nothing compared , say cd150 \( 1 2 \) , proves 3 false comments \? apple cd300 excellent double speed multi session photocd capable drive drives based slightly faster toshiba companies selling drives spin peripherals \( bargain 499 \) pli \( company hate \) relax technologies \( company know little longtime player mac mailorder , usually good sign \) nec also good choice \( nec 's mechanism , think \) sells around 619 thanx welcome , see germany mailorder info little good , guess spin peripherals 800 466 1200 club mac 800 258 relax tech 510 471 nothing wrong apple , though , based sony mechanism speed identical nec toshiba 's speed advantage slight 20 average access time \( minor plus \) 10 data transfer rate \( slightly important plus \) good luck , mark
tthiel cs uiuc edu \( terry thiel \) subject centris 610 flaky \? organization university illinois , dept comp sci , urbana , il lines 23 scott cs uiuc edu \( jay scott \) writes rep dealer \( actually 's university order center , n't immediate financial interest \) , told lots problems centris 610 n't go details , mentioned problems floppy drive intermittent problems printing files sounded like hardware problems software compatibility problems machine 's recommending centris 610 anybody says consider centris 650 iivx \( would recommend iivx lciii n't know , 's said \) , net think \? dealer get one flaky machine , apple send c610 door early \? c610 working great , buggy \? 610 working great n't heard problems sounds like dealer n't know 's talking 's pretty irresponsible centris 610 basis problems one machine recommending iivx lciii n't make lot sense either person convinced 610 buggy talked apple assuming 's problem \? terry
iastate edu \( kevin \) subject unknown mac board national instruments nb dma 8 organization iowa state university , ames , ia distribution usa lines 22 need help identifying board found stuffed away corner title says , printed national instruments nb dma 8 fits fine mac iici snooper gives name board looks like hp ib connector back another connector top \( 2 rows 25 pins \) also looks like intel processor \( 16 intel '86 \) eeprom sticker p n 01 anybody ever seen heard one \? better yet , know \? clueless last option hook hp workstations see smoke comes thanks lot ! kevin um , forget iastate edu
stratton cwis unomaha edu \( dan stratton \) subject apple 's new organization university nebraska omaha lines 10 use new keyboard iifx , like touch typist advantage loss difference less stress wrists dan dan stratton stratton cwis unomaha edu macs , mercedes , money much enough views
f2ehg786 umiami ir miami edu subject apple 40mb hd ext case \? organization univ miami ir lines 14 'd like install apple \( quantum \) 40 mb hard drive taken iisi external box hard drives international dead conner mechanism done \( know \) \? , could please walk , much detail possible \? please email directly anyone else interested , email 'll forward responses enough people want instructions , 'll post summary within week thanks advance , bill f2ehg786 umiami ir miami edu
nswc wo navy mil \( paul montanaro \) subject cd300 question organization nswc lines 26 article h01sav dsyibm desy de michael desy de , h01sav dsyibm desy de \( michael savitski \) wrote hi , ! mac lc consider buying cd300 've told , however , 1 double speed cd300 achievable machines scsi 2 2 double speed prerequisite photocd multisession capability , need 3 means seem gain nothing compared , say cd150 comments \? thanx source wrong double speed cd300 still slow compared typical hard disk lc easily handle scsi transfer rate cd300 none current macs , even quadras , support scsi 2 unless get scsi 2 nubus card n't double speed use photocd 's faster reading images disk think cd150 handle photocd , single session cd300 multisession photocd paul
css itd umich edu \( andrew \) subject centris 610 flaky \? organization university michigan itd consulting support lines 24 nntp posting host css itd umich edu article c5ydqc 6jk cs uiuc edu scott cs uiuc edu \( jay scott \) writes rep dealer \( actually 's university order center , n't immediate financial interest \) , told lots problems centris 610 n't go details , mentioned problems floppy drive intermittent problems printing files sounded like hardware problems software compatibility problems machine deleted , net think \? dealer get one flaky machine , apple send c610 door early \? c610 working great , buggy \? lot time , 're dealing someone financial interest selling machine , get lot opinion \( opposed factual information , etc \) sounds like guy experience one flaky centris 610 formed encompassing opinion rest 610 's 've seen lots people frustrated end refused believe mac xyz would good , since experience \( one machine \) mac xyz bad loss , eh \? andrew w css itd umich edu
wier merlin etsu edu \( bob wier \) subject radius \? organization east texas state university lines 23 article wier csci etsu edu , wier merlin etsu edu \( bob wier \) wrote vaguely , maybe remember kind serious problem board , composite , pal , video , composite , etc plus also generating quicktime movies , etc macweek generally complimentary april 12th issue oops got home checked found isnt radius video vision mentioned problems none less , still chance buy one relatively cheap anyone say well seems work , newer model introduced \( accounting price reduction \? \) thanks thousands apologies radius insert usual disclaimers bob wier , east texas state u , commerce , texas wier merlin etsu edu \( watch address change \)
woods ulowell edu subject none lines 27 organization university massachusetts lowell would like find adb connector back macintosh powerbooks seeing several products use powering devices powerbook also thought something power adb connector \( keyboard mouse connector \) anyone know voltage serial sort kind soul could tell way talk mac \( ie packet info \) would appreciated greatly ! ! ! ! ! second note , pin outs mac powerbook modem connector would like know pins 5v , data etc thanks ! charles charles internet woods ulowell edu actually , unix user friendly system particular users chooses friendly oracle programmers programs alike need die gracefully upon failure , exit system
mirsky hal gnu ai mit edu \( david joshua mirsky \) subject datadesk keyboard centris fix organization dis lines 11 nntp posting host hal ai mit edu hi , terry could n't agree finally received datadesk keyboard month datadesk checked n't tell phone wait pressing shift key disable extensions actually , , day keyboard arrived month earlier , help really think need put disclaimer keyboard manual david
guykuo carson u washington edu \( guy kuo \) subject 66 6 mhz clock oscillator , \? summary faster clock oscillator found \? keywords clock , oscillator article shelley organization university washington lines 7 nntp posting host carson u washington edu quest speed , 've run problem 66 66 mhz 80 mhz clock oscillators available n't found speeds 66 66 70 mhz testing fox electronics \( 813 \) 693 make custom oscillators anyone knows source cheaper 12 osc please let know 68 70 mhz units would complete speed trials old q700 guy kuo guykuo u washington edu
ellens bnr ca \( chris ellens \) subject monitors kept 24 hours day \? \? \? nntp posting host organization bell northern research lines 10 article calvin nyu edu , roy mchip00 med nyu edu \( roy smith \) wrote would n't worry much wasting electricity winter months energy getting turned heat may efficient way heat building central heating plant , 's thing inefficient heater \? chris ellens ellens bnr ca
espen h dartmouth edu \( espen h \) subject powerbook duo memory system slow x posted internews1 newshost dartmouth edu organization dartmouth college , hanover , nh lines 27 article 1993apr23 leland stanford edu avery gestalt stanford edu \( avery wang \) writes hi hardware gurus know kind memory architecture apple uses powerbook duos \? powerbook general \? factors make duo 210 slow compared desktop machine running processor speed \( 25mhz 68030 \) \? many wait states memory system , etc \? kind data bus use \? 32 bit 16 bit \? huh \? get idea \? think got backwards duo 's memory faster equivalent desktop machine 5 10 \( rest \) think explanation refresh faster \( 2 instead 5 cycles believe \) things could affect performance would factors use functions enhanced fpu \( duo n't \) extensions background applications slow computer real life differences speed likely influence software running , kind screen depth running etc espen ps ! duo 32 bit
phil pic ucla edu \( philippe goodman \) subject mac oriented bbss organization ucla mathematics , pic division lines 21 article 1993apr22 adrenaline com , hyerstay adrenaline com \( jason hyerstay \) wrote i'm also interested mac based bbs , chicago would greatly appreciate someone could post list bbss la area preferably \( 818 \) also \( 213 \) thanks dan sure thing firstclass systems area codes online burbank , ca \( 818 \) 840 drawing board heights , ca \( 818 \) 965 bps hollywood , ca \( 213 \) 874 1919 valley mug pasadena , ca \( 818 \) 790 5426 n't forget \( los angeles macintosh group \) bbs ! 's bbs largest mac user group country bmug multi platform number \( 310 \) 559 macs \( 559 \)
drlovemd jhunix hcf jhu edu \( steve liu \) subject scsi cable sale organization homewood academic computing , johns hopkins university , baltimore , md , usa lines 22 nntp posting host jhunix hcf jhu edu brand new , never used 12 inch mac scsi cable sale i'm asking 15 shipping tell high n't think tttttt eeeee vv vv eeeee tt ee vv vv ee tt eeee vv vv eeee steve liu tt ee vvv ee drlovemd jhunix hcf jhu edu tt eeeee v eeeee drlovemd jhuvms hcf jhu edu
anl gov \( chuck beck \) subject \? \? need device ntsc video scsi bus organization anl lines 11 anyone heard scsi device capture video \? need sort device capture 10 frames per second , work scsi bus idea use sort video conferencing application told went , would burn ears thoughts anl gov
web 2h berkeley edu \( ong \) subject pc hand scan mac \? keywords scanner nntp posting host web 2h berkeley edu organization university california , berkeley lines 14 logitech hand scanner mac uses scsi interface box standard scanner unit plugs tried friend 's ibm hand scanner scsi box works see get logitech sell scsi box warning cost mac contained scsi interface box , could run around 200 upgraded old style scanner new gray scale model , cost 75 gave new scan head software box gray scale scanner interface runs 300 making around 200 interface
bu edu \( michael feldman \) subject floptical kills superdrive lines 13 x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 recently bought pli floptical drive , happy tried use format 1 4 hd diskette put hd floppy superdrive check floptical formatted correctly , superdrive refuses recognize floppy \( says disk unreadable asks want format \) even original systems floppies apple format disks try \( initialization failed ! \) strangely enough floptical still reads 21 mb 1 4 hd disks , cant look 800k floppies , crash i'm screwed floptical ca n't used start disk pli ideas \? happened anyone \? looking inexpensive storage solution , looking expensive repair help ! respond thread , email acs bu edu
subject monitors kept 24 hours day \? \? \? stubbs hawk cs ukans edu \( jerry stubbs \) organization university kansas computer science dept lines 17 article exodus eng sun com , gsager heliacal eng sun com \( gary \) writes work , pointed done monitors power switch front pet peeve mine wish companies would put power switches front equipment ! apple monitor switch front , would happily power night almost every piece computer equipment use switch back \( including external hard drives modems \? \) hope front mounted switches become norm , soon extra wire work put switch front usually easiest place put switch wherever power cord enters machine , people hate power cords front ! ! prefer power strip
bsd9554 ultb isc rit edu \( b davidson \) subject stylewriter ii dying \? nntp posting host ultb gw isc rit edu organization rochester institute technology bought stylewriter ii couple months ago , lately , print something , notice white lines gaps running line printed 's almost like paper advancing far advancing lines replaced ink cartridge thinking might problem , lines still anyone else noticed problem \? 's best way get rid \? brian davidson internet bsd9554 ultb isc rit edu rochester institute technology bitnet bsd9554 ritvax
distribution world alan j bmug org organization bmug , inc subject price drop c650 within lines 8 price 650 8 80 seems good would like know giving away secrets thanks , alan planet bmug , firstclass bbs bmug message contained posting way reflect bmug 's official views
distribution world mario murphy bmug org organization bmug , inc subject 25mhz iisi lines 16 done several upgrades \( 6 iisi 's , 1 quadra 700 \) , best thing use would sort heat sink compound possible , look silicon free stuff 's makes stuff called tech spray , address p box 949 , , tx wary using kinds tape definately n't use duct tape stuff using heat sink glue compound , use enough fill small space heat sink cpu mario murphy planet bmug , firstclass bbs bmug message contained posting way reflect bmug 's official views
distribution world mario murphy bmug org organization bmug , inc subject sad mac code 0f0064 \? \? \? lines 12 believe would system error 64 since error 64 , would guess would 64 error font manager error error font would assume system 's floppy trying start corrupted font , something like mario murphy planet bmug , firstclass bbs bmug message contained posting way reflect bmug 's official views
guykuo carson u washington edu \( guy kuo \) subject monitors kept 24 hours day \? \? \? article shelley organization university washington lines 4 nntp posting host carson u washington edu 've turned monitor cpu running many times time wonder cpu directly hooking high current draw lines running put substantial spike power line \? could one possibly lose data damage equipment \?
gray engr wisc edu \( gary l gray \) subject 72 pin simms q 800 , careful buying organization u wisconsin madison college engineering lines 11 already purchased 72 pin simms quadra 800 memory direct \( march 9 \) tell whether composite simms \? rule , memory direct ship composite regular simms \? thank gary l gray engineering mechanics astronautics university wisconsin madison gray engr wisc edu
b clark nwu edu \( brian clark \) subject unknown mac board national instruments nb dma 8 nntp posting host acns nwu edu organization northwestern university distribution usa lines 36 article news iastate edu , iastate edu \( kevin \) wrote need help identifying board found stuffed away corner title says , printed national instruments nb dma 8 fits fine mac iici snooper gives name board looks like hp ib connector back another connector top \( 2 rows 25 pins \) also looks like intel processor \( 16 intel '86 \) eeprom sticker p n 01 anybody ever seen heard one \? better yet , know \? clueless last option hook hp workstations see smoke comes 's made \( surprise \) national instruments bridge point parkway austin , tx \( 800 \) 433 ftp ftp natinst com 1991 catalog lists nb 8g follows fetch deposit dma controller \( 8 channels \) ieee 488 interface data rates 850 kb sec , dma programmed transfers 8 16 bit counter timer channels bus \( 's connector top board links national instrument boards list price board n't later catalogs nb
paryavi matt ksu ksu edu \( saiid paryavi \) subject centris 610 flaky \? organization kansas state university lines 29 nntp posting host matt ksu ksu edu tthiel cs uiuc edu \( terry thiel \) writes scott cs uiuc edu \( jay scott \) writes rep dealer \( actually 's university order center , n't immediate financial interest \) , told lots problems centris 610 n't go details , mentioned problems floppy drive intermittent problems printing files sounded like hardware problems software compatibility problems machine 's recommending centris 610 anybody says consider centris 650 iivx \( would recommend iivx lciii n't know , 's said \) , net think \? dealer get one flaky machine , apple send c610 door early \? c610 working great , buggy \? centris 610 working perfectly one problem noticed fastback ii backup utility work ! ! ! strange thing works friend 's 610 time , however , never works machine assume sort software problem hardware related saiid paryavi paryavi matt ksu ksu edu saiid cis ksu edu
paryavi matt ksu ksu edu \( saiid paryavi \) subject unknown mac board national instruments nb dma 8 organization kansas state university lines 32 distribution usa nntp posting host matt ksu ksu edu iastate edu \( kevin \) writes need help identifying board found stuffed away corner title says , printed national instruments nb dma 8 fits fine mac iici snooper gives name board looks like hp ib connector back another connector top \( 2 rows 25 pins \) also looks like intel processor \( 16 intel '86 \) eeprom sticker p n 01 anybody ever seen heard one \? better yet , know \? clueless last option hook hp workstations see smoke comes thanks lot ! kevin data board mac ii series called dma board interface may call ni 800 ieee 488 find hope helps saiid paryavi saiid paryavi paryavi matt ksu ksu edu saiid cis ksu edu
uucp mailhost ecn uoknor edu \( bryan oakley \) subject defense performas \( performa lc \? \? \? \) organization faa mike aeronautical center distribution lines 61 article 1993apr22 desire wright edu , demon desire wright edu \( boomer \) article 1993apr20 puc cl , rcvillab isluga puc cl \( carlos \) writes hi ! ! question diference performa 450 lciii \? want know better know specifications prices computers , tell email rcvillab isluga puc cl 'd like know diference apple monitor \( \) performa monitor performa 200 classic ii performa 400 lc ii performa 4xx lc iii performa 600 well , nothing \) performas made low cost business solutions 4xx bundled software , modems , etc retail price might able get discount shop around far monitors go , buy 3rd party much cheaper brett 's nothing passionate vested interest disguised intellectual conviction sean o'casey white plague frank herbert hmmm 's quite right performa 600 real darn close iivx \( better buy imo \) also n't think much cost business , low cost home solution else bundle ease \( among things \) \? hardly business application mean 'no retail price ' quite contrary , think price darn near across country \( , imo \) one selling points performas ie haggling required kinda like saturn \( car \) computer set one price , medium performance , ready go shopped performa \( \) , difference sears \( sigh \) , montgomery wards , \( sigh \) , circuit city \( sigh \) \( sigh \) could n't 100 00 chose one based solely availability friendly salesman went extra mile \( last hear someone sells apples \? \) admittedly , except montgomery wards \( suspect lucky \) spoke n't know computers , mac , neither apple dealers spoke would 've told year ago would buy macintosh montgomery wards laughed long , long time go figure i'm real happy performa oh , bought apple performa plus monitor \( vs buying 3rd party \) happy decision well walked , cash , walked new computer day christmas instrument approach procedures automation dot faa ami 230 bryan oakley mailhost ecn uoknor edu
peirce outpost sf bay org \( michael peirce \) subject monitors kept 24 hours day \? \? \? reply peirce outpost sf bay org \( michael peirce \) organization peirce software lines 34 x mailer uaccess macintosh release 1 6v2 article 1993apr21 alleg edu \( comp sys mac hardware \) , alleg edu \( jim \) writes article 1r3jl5 igh function mps ohio state edu nevai mps ohio state edu \( paul nevai \) writes yes , know computers harddisk drives always monitors \? generate lots heat n't keep 24 hours day \? advice \? thanks take care paul paul nevai nevai mps ohio state edu dept math ohio state university 1 614 292 3317 \( office \) columbus , ohio 43210 1174 , u 1 614 292 1479 \( math dept fax \) actually , thought macs restarted day nope keep mac running time since also acts usenet node exchanges mail news every half hour \( run uaccess \) receives faxes turn monitors hooked produce heat want warm garage office summer 've got one handy power control centers \( 25 fry 's \) flip switch front start stop working way , strategy seems somewhat endorsed apple since new color classic turn monitor certain length idle time michael peirce peirce outpost sf bay org peirce software suite 301 , 719 place san jose , california usa makers voice 1 408 244 fax 1 408 244 applelink peirce america online afc peirce
scott cs uiuc edu \( jay scott \) subject centris 610 flaky \? organization university illinois urbana champaign lines 21 stimpy css itd umich edu css itd umich edu \( andrew \) writes article c5ydqc 6jk cs uiuc edu scott cs uiuc edu \( jay scott \) writes c610 working great , buggy \? lot time , 're dealing someone financial interest selling machine , get lot opinion \( opposed factual information , etc \) sounds like guy experience one flaky centris 610 formed encompassing opinion rest 610 's 've seen lots yes , sounds like , spend da bucks , want make sure i'm right e mail \( self confessed \) apple hater listing common problems c610 , nothing ca n't get fixed warranty , anybody else \? great lousy \? jay scott scott cs uiuc edu
uhura cc rochester edu \( mehta \) subject centris 610 flaky \? nntp posting host uhura cc rochester edu organization university rochester \( rochester , ny \) lines 28 article c5ydqc 6jk cs uiuc edu scott cs uiuc edu \( jay scott \) writes rep dealer \( actually 's university order center , n't immediate financial interest \) , told lots problems centris 610 n't go details , mentioned problems floppy drive intermittent problems printing files sounded like hardware problems software compatibility problems machine 's recommending centris 610 anybody says consider centris 650 iivx \( would recommend iivx lciii n't know , 's said \) , net think \? dealer get one flaky machine , apple send c610 door early \? c610 working great , buggy \? jay scott scott cs uiuc edu mine works great , far mehta university rochester sucks ! uhura cc rochester edu believe captain crunch , fry
cnsvax uwec edu subject svga powerbook 160 \? reply cnsvax uwec edu organization university wisconsin eau claire lines 18 ok question want hook powerbook 160 svga monitor want buy powerbook dos companion anyone tell exact cable need connect \? cable , purchase computer store \? must buy cable james engineering , much run get hold \? \? \? guess 'a' question \) thanks advance replys john e mail cnsvax uwec edu
distribution world david schnider bmug org organization bmug , inc subject desi pb upgrade lines 7 could n't replacement become expensive \? david planet bmug , firstclass bbs bmug message contained posting way reflect bmug 's official views
distribution world david schnider bmug org organization bmug , inc subject psi modem problem ii lines 17 first problem sound tried m0 , even n't want suggestions \? second really strange first , kept mentioning fc slowed time took long well logged extensions n't slowdown also , last time online quit \( usually disconnects quits \) disconnected would n't quit force quit , launched fc said modem port use really strange thought might fax software restart could reset modem port \( likely explanation \) , suggestions \? david planet bmug , firstclass bbs bmug message contained posting way reflect bmug 's official views
distribution world eugene sun bmug org organization bmug , inc subject help gcc plp ii laser printer lines 5 tech support line gcc 1 800 231 planet bmug , firstclass bbs bmug message contained posting way reflect bmug 's official views
cassidy elan rowan edu \( kyle cassidy \) subject torx 15 screwdriver lines 11 nntp posting host rowan edu organization rowan college new jersey article austin ibm com login austin ibm com writes ago owned plus wanted upgrade memory , ordered toolkit macwarehouse something like 9 included anti static 've success standard screwdriver slots , banging hammer twisting away throw darn things away put real screws methinks sell us damn screwdrivers
cassidy elan rowan edu \( kyle cassidy \) subject monitors i'm using , i'm using ! lines 18 nntp posting host rowan edu organization rowan college new jersey article usenet ucs indiana edu silver ucs indiana edu \( chang hsu liu \) writes u environmental protection agency formed alliance computer manufacturers promote introduction energy efficient pcs power automatically used bad idea machine 24 hours day , 's actually things 24 hours day use purpose alarm clock , scheduler , 've got routines run middle night , phone calls makes day i'm machine 24 hours day , count working 24 hours day could call work download file might need , could call work turn lights i'm going late \( oops , wasted electricity conversely , could turn lights \) heck , suppose could even connect microwave dinner ready get oh well nevermind i'm babbling
subject powerbook buy \? \? debug uc twsu edu organization wichita state university , wichita , ks lines 14 hi , iisi i'm considering buying powerbook anyone give listing models tell i'm looking , e passive matrix vs active , memory sizes , , internal modems , disk size could provide prices would help i'm informed enough powerbooks know well operate following posts problems encountered trackball working horizontal would appreciate list well advice may thanks advance wichita state university
warren warren laplace biology yale edu subject mac superdrives read unix disks \? x xxmessage id kstar node net yale edu x xxdate sat , 24 apr 93 11 33 30 gmt nntp posting host kstar node net yale edu organization yale university x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d12 lines 7 anyone know program utility enable mac read unix \( e next \) 3 5 disks \? thanks , warren warren laplace biology yale edu
harley hrm engr ucf edu subject 25mhz iisi x xxdate sat , 24 apr 93 16 45 51 gmt organization univ central florida x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d17 lines 4 25mhz iisi used radio shack heat sink compound solution clamps , works fine caution holds , though n't tilt mac !
athena mit edu \( william j \) subject centris 610 flaky \? organization massachusetts institute technology lines 12 distribution world nntp posting host auditorium mit edu 've playing centris 610 \( 8 230 \) last couple weeks problem seen couple applications run incompatible 040 's processor cache , run turned actually , main thing n't like n't software powerup , power switch directly floppy drive ! \( n't hit thinking would eject disk , tired night i'm going really upset design decision \) , problems floppy printing fine \( printing done across localtalk net , directly connected printer \) bill
diamond ac jp \( \) subject info wanted upgrading se 30 power supply nntp posting host diamond distribution comp sys mac hardware , comp sys mac wanted organization research institute electrical communication , lines 12 hello netter , want power supply se 30 8 bit color card installed know crc components , inc deals compatible power supply se 30 power plus systems anyone know phone fax number \? please reply e mail thanks ,
ellis uchicago edu \( samuel \) subject centris 610 flaky \? reply midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 12 article c5ydqc 6jk cs uiuc edu scott cs uiuc edu \( jay scott \) writes , net think \? dealer get one flaky machine , apple send c610 door early \? c610 working great , buggy \? 610 working like charm fact , 610 's flaky , would consider great computer even return couple apple get good one samuel christian midway uchicago edu bio computing labs whitman 108 915 e 57th st chicago , il 60637
dunx1 ocs drexel edu \( david j sugar \) subject building simple appletalk repeater \? \? summary simple repeater keywords appletalk repeater , cheap , build organization drexel university , phila pa lines 16 small network running dorm school , kind worried length wires way run wondering anyone might schematic least ideas make sort simple appletalk repeater i'm interested making actual zones zone names , way isolate different branches network anyone ideas could done \? \? thanks alot , dave sugar mcs drexel edu dunx1 ocs drexel edu
hiroki limerick cbs umn edu \( hiroki \) subject tones o' death nntp posting host limerick cbs umn edu reply hiroki limerick cbs umn edu organization university minnesota x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 lines 23 hi , test installed 6 07 iici got black screen , way sick looking mac icon , hitting programmers reset , tone sequence guess infamous tones death able reboot floppy , removed japanese system , set system folder hard drive get system 7 01 back overt problems mac idea caused tones \? forget numbers comes mind self diagnostic , would older system version catch , 7 \? \( 'll moving 7 1 \) thanks advance , hiroki hiroki department biochemistry 612 624 university minnesota 612 625 \( fax \) 1479 avenue hiroki limerick cbs umn edu st paul mn
corbo lclark edu \( beth corbo \) subject stylewriter ii dying \? article lclark 1993apr24 organization lewis clark college , portland lines 26 article 1993apr24 6425 ultb isc rit edu bsd9554 ultb isc rit edu \( b davidson \) writes bought stylewriter ii couple months ago , lately , print something , notice white lines gaps running line printed 's almost like paper advancing far advancing lines replaced ink cartridge thinking might problem , lines still anyone else noticed problem \? 's best way get rid \? brian davidson internet bsd9554 ultb isc rit edu similar problem stylewriter \( original ! \) tried cleaning print heads \? swii driver , 's option print dialog box sometimes several times get crud yes wastes ink , beats white annoying lines another idea print couple pages big black box help get ink flowing good luck ! beth corbo corbo lclark edu
ejhupper rs6000 cmp ilstu edu \( eric huppertz \) subject 's chime \? distribution usa organization illinois state university lines 17 article nac fnnews fnal gov b91926 fnclub fnal gov \( david sachs \) writes chimes indicate hardware failure type system startup one thing cause chimes cable become bit loose next time power computer , check cables tight remember simple program would play chimes clicked respective buttons anyone know \? circa 1988 , think cheers , e \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) eric j huppertz ejhupper ilstu edu \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) hey , n't rules come think \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) , n't rules
wittenberg edu subject macintosh lab ! ! ! help ! ! ! organization wittenberg university lines 56 nntp posting host wittenberg edu interesting school discussing installing mac lab 10 15 stations bio 100 103 classes study pig \( joke \) deal get grant study feasible via computer via real thing problem somehow drawn project \( done students want go mac know nada , man mac man campus , guess came \? \) know would probably best hardware fill list \? right looking c650 8 80 2vx 5 80 platforms ok goes using cd rom , ought go internal apple cd roms offered options 650 vx go external matter price reliability , second important much ram \? thinking 5 8 leaning towards 8 \? think \? ok , called apple educational discounts said keyboard \( extended \) 160 30 better go apple long time great wear tear record , 3rd party extended keyboard reliable \? price \? printers one color printer presently leaning thermal wax \( probably e going limit access n't needed 's \) , think terms color printers \? different brand \? kind \( dye \? ink jet \? \) price \? companies \? 1800 \? also , looking get laser printer network whole lab printing runner apple \( right n't notes \? \) suggestions \? kids using things day lab goes know nothing part reliable , easy maintain , economical \( ie , high priced paper , etc \) finally , little dig project things \? ether nearby would like slap macs net , , server \? individual ether \? forget going priced school going laugh ask \? little info , poli sci major happens know alot macs bit league , mention n't time go look stuff hoping collective resources net help \( \) shameless plug buy empower ! ! ! great security program ! ! ! disclaimer post never supported university condone way using media info bio majors real persons please send email make real clear wittenberg edu damn hope editor alive get done typing another stupid blank post reserve right claim info mine use get everything want form universities red taped administration info may used blackmail purposes obtaining undo amounts praise god like status info may also used get credits really n't deserve ned questions \? thanks ahead time ! ! collective genius internet , scott sauer
rts nwu edu \( ted schreiber \) subject flaky large memory simms 160 's \? nntp posting host mech nwu edu organization mechanical engineering lines 32 last two weeks following problem two 160 's 1 8mb simm 6 mb simm 2 3 months old , bought different vendors installed different people computers begin crashing frequently , locking ultimately memory chimes crashes would almost always occur moved screen sometimes would occur n't even touching computer cases , taking machine apart , taking memory putting back solved problem awhile would comeback , marginally educated guess 's happening larger simms insertion point sort pivot point time begin move possible pressure keyboard something \? anyway , anyone else problem solution somehow could support end simm prevent moving 've problem past 3 weeks replacing 8mb simm although solution please email resp post usefull rest world ted ted schreiber mechanical northwestern university tel 708 491 fax 708 491 email rts nwu edu
rts nwu edu \( ted schreiber \) subject mac video system cards software \? nntp posting host mech nwu edu organization mechanical engineering lines 23 would good platform fairly basic video work following nature reading real video various app 's 5 10 length basic editing features said video sequences , adding slides something like power point etc i'm familiar stuff would like good system crisp performance 's educational promotional things video quality decent i'm thinking tempest cyclone , big drive , loads ram , floptical 128mb optical \? \? however , i'm sure various cards software thats please email responses , thanks ted schreiber mechanical northwestern university tel 708 491 fax 708 491 email rts nwu edu
erik cheshire oxy edu \( erik adams \) subject lciii used iici get \? organization occidental college , los angeles , ca 90041 usa lines 22 , long last , going replace beloved 512ke looking new lc iii used iici prices yet worked , i'm thinking right merits drawbacks 's 've thought iici much greater potential expansion , la nubus greater memory capacity lc iii would new , warranty , newer roms \( iici 32 bit clean \? \) , would sound input also like pizza box case performance wise , read almost identical , lc iii little slower , get \? erik erik cheshire oxy edu 1
mem world std com \( roy \) subject lciii used iici get \? organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 32 erik cheshire oxy edu \( erik adams \) writes , long last , going replace beloved 512ke looking new lc iii used iici prices yet worked , i'm thinking right merits drawbacks 's 've thought iici much greater potential expansion , la nubus greater memory capacity lc iii would new , warranty , newer roms \( iici 32 bit clean \? \) , would sound input also like pizza box case performance wise , read almost identical , lc iii little slower , get \? erik erik cheshire oxy edu 1 yes , iici 32 bit clean roms either model would good choice another option get new iici dealer n't sold yet also , n't forget performa 405 , believe , lc iii may packaged goodies better price
ocean fsu edu \( char \) subject lciii used iici get \? organization florida state university acns distribution na lines 38 article 1993apr24 cheshire oxy edu erik cheshire oxy edu \( erik adams \) writes looking new lc iii used iici prices iici much greater potential expansion , la nubus greater memory capacity important \? many nubus cards plan acquire \? much memory really need \? 've got ci , 20mb ram 's plenty also 24bit graphics card nubus i'm sucker pretty pictures think lciii bootable ramdisk memory , ci least , box lc iii would new , warranty , newer roms \( iici 32 bit clean \? \) , would sound input also like pizza box case ci 32 bit clean solved sound input problem macrecorder 's gotten fairly expensive solution macromind owns macrecorder performance wise , read almost identical , lc iii little slower actual difference probably worth worrying , get \? depends price get ci speaking , 4 80 \? lciii fsu 1300 add roughly 500 monitor last 'd heard , 8mb lciii simm went 250 think 're win win situation matter decide , 'll likely happy james
netcom com \( \) subject gives blank screen organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 10 running system 7 1 centris 610 able setup printer yet open chooser , get blank screen kinds print drivers none shows even get port either one big blank screen help appreciated btw rebuild desktop help either netcom com
blakey ug cs dal ca \( jason fish blakey \) subject 25 hard drives nntp posting host ug cs dal ca organization math , stats cs , dalhousie university , halifax , ns , canada lines 12 netters ! got used 25 accelerator , fpu , wondering points anyone know current driver version \? \? handle 16 bit grayscale card , get video option would hating hard drive \? \( ca n't use accelerator hard drive time \) need new driver drive \? make \? thanks , jason blakey ug cs dal ca 's big ! 's purple ! 's best friend !
blakey ug cs dal ca \( jason fish blakey \) subject oops , probably specific nntp posting host ug cs dal ca organization math , stats cs , dalhousie university , halifax , ns , canada lines 15 's system desc 4 megs main board , 1 accelerator board mac plus , recent roms \( \) trying run system 6 , would like run 7 hard drive jasmine , works fine start accelerator disabled also seem get problem try start floppy hard drive disconnected , get disk loading , screen black , except happy mac middle , never gets anywhere jason blakey ug cs dal ca 's big ! 's purple ! 's best friend !
eos ncsu edu \( \) subject lciii used iici get \? organization north carolina state university , project eos lines 10 according saw store today , performa 405 lciii 16mhz 68030 lciii 25mhz 030 correct wrong , possible dealer may forgotten remove description next actual computer dealers sell performa known much knowledge macs dos machines
cris cm deakin oz au \( christopher welsh \) subject need 3 button mouse help ! organization deakin university , , australia lines 22 distribution world nntp posting host aragorn cm deakin edu au anyone recommend 3 button mouse compatible macx quadra \? , buttons say , cut , paste etc \? anyone suggest supplier \? 3 button mice know exist 1 106 00 aust \( \) 2 100 00 aust \( mac direct \) ok configuration \? please reply directly regards christopher welsh deakin university chris welsh department computing maths cris aragorn cm deakin oz au everybody enormous potential could see see
charon amdahl com \( tb \) subject mac iifx sale reply charon amdahl com \( tb \) lines 18 sale mac iifx following config 20mb 's ram 3 5 hard drive 2 1 44mb floppy drives extended keyboard mouse apple 8bit video card 2 , 500 00 best offer ! need monitor complete system thanks
cd amdahl com \( nicholas pang \) subject svga monitors centris \( real story \) distribution usa organization amdahl corporation , sunnyvale ca lines 28 article andrew cmu edu , am2o andrew cmu edu \( alexander samuel mcdiarmid \) writes essentially answer yes least 600x400 configuration get adaptor called mac vga q james engineering \( 510 \) 525 7350 let display 600x400 800x600 monitor capable think 800x600 requires horizontal sync use sony 1604 \( gives slightly wider screen 832x624 adaptor using nec 4fg centris 610 cable adapter provided nec \( call get free adapter \) also sharing 486 \( using switch box extra cables \) questions tell 600x400 800x600 displayed \? change mode \( resolution \) \? sw something hw \? assuming getting 800x600 since 1m vram 4fg display \( \? \) 486 nicholas pang cd amdahl com amdahl corporation outs ccc amdahl com
stephen tseng cornell edu subject iisi acceleration done iici \? organization cornell university lines 6 distribution world nntp posting host cu dialup 0112 cit cornell edu x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d20 x xxmessage id cu dialup 0112 cit cornell edu x xxdate sun , 25 apr 93 05 47 37 gmt wondering many accelerate iisi 's 20 mhz 25 mhz \( beyond \) done iici \( ie 25 mhz 32 33 mhz \) \? stephen tseng cornell edu
asm psu edu \( \) subject buy new lcii \? \? organization pennsylvania state univ , dept mechanical engineering lines 13 distribution world nntp posting host psu edu x news reader vms news 1 24 want buy lcii \( yes lcii lciii \) none dealer seems anymore anybody know buy beast \? wanted 4 80 standard keyboard package please let know thanx system administrator asm psu edu dept mechanical engg 814 865 pennsylvania state univ res 814 867
avery gestalt stanford edu \( avery wang \) subject cd300 audio cd scsi commands organization dso , stanford university lines 8 hi anyone know would get started writing device driver apple cd300 cd rom drive , read audio cd formats scsi bus \? thanks , avery
uxa cso uiuc edu \( dennis robinson \) subject x86 680x0 \? \? \( compare \? \) distribution usa organization university illinois urbana lines 5 486 clock fast 040 clock speed '040 also much better floating point unit dx2 66 faster '040 33mhz reference 486 33 mhz gets '040 33mhz gets
roman brice f204 n2603 z1 fidonet org \( roman brice \) subject modems simple question organization fidonet node 1 2603 204 even odd , forest hills ny lines 31 going purchase modem r fax capability currently considering 32bis global village teleport gold global village averages 100 , advantage \? concerning fax need present incoming fax e , modem software recognize incoming fax store information received , use mac applications image telephone line seems pretty stable supra well works great every passing day fall behind many great 14 4s zoom question i'm hearing great product hear sportster really cheap want receive fax , computer , monitor course modem set number rings receive fax specific ring set fax software 's entirely arrange 've faxes sent great 've home set n't need set fax receiving day also hear device channel incoming phone signals 70 rumor also phone company hook gizmo 5 's need best luck write back 'd like feedback freddie 1 2 5 clinton tax man cometh cometh cometh keeps coming roman brice internet roman brice f204 n2603 z1 fidonet org
avery gestalt stanford edu \( avery wang \) subject mac superdrives read unix disks \? organization dso , stanford university lines 18 article 1993apr24 news yale edu warren warren laplace biology yale edu writes anyone know program utility enable mac read unix \( e next \) 3 5 disks \? thanks , warren warren laplace biology yale edu n't know answer direct question , mac superdrive read ms dos disks \( \? \? \) transfer files next mac using ms dos formatted disks since next read write format 're interested transferring files , also serial port using kermit cheers , avery
avery gestalt stanford edu \( avery wang \) subject powerbook duo memory system slow organization dso , stanford university lines 54 article dartvax dartmouth edu espen h dartmouth edu \( espen h \) writes article 1993apr23 leland stanford edu avery gestalt stanford edu \( avery wang \) writes hi hardware gurus know kind memory architecture apple uses powerbook duos \? powerbook general \? factors make duo 210 slow compared desktop machine running processor speed \( 25mhz 68030 \) \? many wait states memory system , etc \? kind data bus use \? 32 bit 16 bit \? huh \? get idea \? think got backwards duo 's memory faster equivalent desktop machine 5 10 \( rest \) think explanation refresh faster \( 2 instead 5 cycles believe \) things could affect performance would factors use functions enhanced fpu \( duo n't \) extensions background applications slow computer real life differences speed likely influence software running , kind screen depth running etc espen ps ! duo 32 bit thanks enlightening post technical note \? desktop machine referring actually mac , rather , various workstations use 68030 25mhz , old suns old used next 68030 cube try rebooting without extensions see kind speed difference get powerbook duo notice extreme slowdown mac plus installing system 7 os suck much cpu power \? also , 're right software make huge difference misfortune using ms works duo editing relatively small \( 40k \) files , cut copy takes several seconds , often 6 seconds ! ! happens power cycling turned usual , ms software infested feces i'm getting replace text editing avery
orion oac uci edu \( michael \) subject deskwriter driver v3 1 problems nntp posting host slip nts uci edu x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d17 organization uc irvine lines 12 x xxmessage id slip nts uci edu x xxdate sun , 25 apr 93 17 55 15 gmt article ut emx uucp marc bizer , bongo cc utexas edu writes happened anyone printing beep heard message displayed sort window closed finder enough memory \? one suffering delusion \? marc bizer solved going system folder get info \( command \) finder give memory
orion oac uci edu \( michael \) subject monitors kept 24 hours day \? \? \? nntp posting host slip nts uci edu x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d17 organization uc irvine lines 31 x xxmessage id slip nts uci edu x xxdate sun , 25 apr 93 18 00 16 gmt article cassidy 72 0 elan rowan edu kyle cassidy , cassidy elan rowan edu writes bad idea machine 24 hours day , 's actually things 24 hours day use purpose alarm clock , scheduler , 've got routines run middle night , phone calls makes day i'm machine 24 hours day , count working 24 hours day could call work download file might need , could call work turn lights i'm going late \( oops , wasted electricity conversely , could turn lights \) heck , suppose could even connect microwave dinner ready get oh well nevermind i'm babbling things 've mention still accomplished machine power previous poster said power , n't mean turning machine , means machine energy mode sucks least electricity
fredm media mit edu \( fred g martin \) subject centris 610 flaky \? organization mit media laboratory lines 28 article c5ydqc 6jk cs uiuc edu scott cs uiuc edu \( jay scott \) writes story dealing problems w c610 's deleted , net think \? dealer get one flaky machine , apple send c610 door early \? c610 working great , buggy \? 've c610 six weeks problems whatsoever 's customized replaced apple quantum 80 drive connor 212 drive installed tandberg scsi tape drive internal bay works fine \( though apple n't seem supplying front panel w standard 5 25 cutout \) 's hooked apple laserwriter plus printing problems , tested printing complex photoshop graphics expanded vram extra 8 meg simm , problems sum , idea dealer complaining fred fred martin fredm media mit edu \( 617 \) 253 20 ames st rm 301 epistemology learning group , mit media lab cambridge , 02139 usa
fredm media mit edu \( fred g martin \) subject adapter iisi vga monitor organization mit media laboratory lines 60 article 1993apr24 midway uchicago edu choi uchicago edu \( choi \) writes understand correct adapter use vga monitor iisi adapters working specific brands \? adapter nec sony working brands \? using vga monitor iisi month soon n't clue monitor 's story \( 1 \) iisi cannot supply vga output however \( 2 \) vga type monitors adequately deal video signal mac uses drive apple 13 14 inch high resolution color display e , apple 's 640x480 mode , wish hook one monitors iisi , need \( \) adapter converts mac db 15 connector vga style high density db 15 connector , tells mac use 's 640x480 mode , vga 640x480 mode , \( b \) vga monitor deal higher bandwidth mac 640x480 mode vga 640x480 mode \( stated \( 1 \) , iisi cannot produce \) far \( \) concerned , contact james engineering , inc ave el , ca 510 525 7350 fax 510 525 probably get right adapter remember want run mill mac vga adapter , try iisi produce vga mode , cannot \( computer fail produce video signal \) instead , want adapter connects mac style vga style connectors , tells mac use apple 640x480 mode sorry poor terminology available describing distinction far \( b \) concerned , make sure get monitor deal horizontal bandwidth 35 khz vertical rate 67 hz spec 's apple 's 640x480 mode comparison , vga standard 640x480 mode uses 31 5 khz horizontal bandwidth 60 hz vertical rate monitor probably need auto capability , apple mode 'll using n't one set standard modes pc compatible world good luck ! fred martin fred martin fredm media mit edu \( 617 \) 253 20 ames st rm 301 epistemology learning group , mit media lab cambridge , 02139 usa
bell peter yale edu \( peter bell \) subject lciii used iici get \? organization yale university science engineering unix \( tm \) , new , ct 06520 2158 lines 39 distribution na nntp posting host minerva cis yale edu article mailer cc fsu edu ocean fsu edu \( char \) writes article 1993apr24 cheshire oxy edu erik cheshire oxy edu \( erik adams \) writes looking new lc iii used iici prices iici much greater potential expansion , la nubus greater memory capacity depends price get ci speaking , 4 80 \? lciii fsu 1300 add roughly 500 monitor last 'd heard , 8mb lciii simm went 250 think 're win win situation matter decide , 'll likely happy james yes , one thing think pricing harddrive configuration got lowly classic ii , options 40 80m , clear buying another 40m harddrive space would cost much difference price two config analogous break lciii 80 160 prices , regret spending extra money larger harddrive particularly ever wind wanting use softpc , sets several mb \( 30 ! \) partition , generating large files dtp software , might ever want check mac unix like os , like , extra space helpful pricing used iici 's , look harddrive size come , much would cost add storage road \( might useful bargaining strategy even see reason go 80m , though must admit within 6 months getting computer , backing lot stuff floppies rarely use running space , without started using dtp stuff , softpc trying unix os ! \) peter bell minerva cis yale edu
freenet carleton ca \( liam \) subject sound recording mac portable \? reply freenet carleton ca \( liam \) organization national capital freenet lines 21 previous article , freenet carleton ca \( david hughes \) says anyone know hardware required could find sound recording mac portable thanks buy macrecorder plugs port acts microphone north star computers able order one liam freenet carleton ca
truemner mac truemner rd hydro ca \( gary truemner \) subject syquest 150 \? \? \? organization ontario hydro , toronto , canada distribution usa lines 12 article hydra gatech edu , prism gatech edu \( anthony kim \) wrote remember someone mention syquest anyone else heard anything \? 'd interested cost per megabyte approximate cost drive compare bernoulli 150 bernoulli also offer 20mb floppy drives read 1 4mb floppies reads formats writes bernoulli 's installed industrial computers much rugged syquest get pay guess n't heard syquest \? \? \? thanks truemner mac truemner rd hydro ca ontario hydro automated welding r \( 416 \) 207 fax 237 toronto canada
pazzani pan ics uci edu \( michael pazzani \) subject two internal disks reply pazzani ics uci edu \( michael pazzani \) organization univ calif , irvine , info computer sci dept lines 5 nntp posting host pan ics uci edu 'd like put internal disks mac ii understand ones needs special jumper cable acheive anyone know source \? thanks , mike pazzani \( pazzani ics uci edu \)
oueichek imag fr \( ibaa oueichek \) subject help identifying card nntp posting host organization imag institute , university grenoble , france x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 lines 29 chad jones \( ucla edu \) wrote article imag fr ibaa oueichek , oueichek imag fr writes ethernet card took old lc card manufactured asante read asante tech , inc copyright 1991 lc rev b card fpu socket provides thin ethernet connector 's another connector phone connectors questions card work model lc serie \? , given 's pds card , work iisi pds slot \? think may lc 16 bit wide slots probably wo n't work lc ones lc ii rev , wo n't work iisi 's pds slot since 's 68030 pds , lc 68020 pds iisi se 30 share kind card ok , see asante propose upgrade cards \? email adress ask directly \? phone number ok , even pay overseas call i'm really willing know card sham \( u \) ya tha \( \) \( u \) lam \( \) ibaa oueichek oueichek imag imag fr ya jamal \( al \) \( \) fi \( l \) \( \) lab de genie informatique \( lgi \) \( \) \( \) \( u \) fi imag , \( \) ala \( sh \) \( \) 46 , av felix , grenoble
albert tornado seas ucla edu \( albert e chou \) subject good aps experience organization school engineering applied sciences , ucla lines 31 thought 'd share good experience , bought aps quantum 240 zero footprint drive may '92 \( back still used two separate leds front panel case metal \) traveling \( se 30 mac bag , top mac \) past winter , one plastic tabs holding front panel broke , right side front panel coming forward away rest drive lived situation became completely intolerable \( less coincided network shutdown school trip town take , gave dead time drive sent \) called aps rma got one , questions asked tab got broken \( handled little roughly airline baggage handlers though nothing else damaged well , except internal speaker modem , n't well glued begin yeah , yeah , i'm never flying se 30 \) called back ask whether could send little later rather right away , problem even exceeded normal valid period rma day \( 're usually good 10 days \) front panel replaced warranty , drive shipped back quickly \( mailed first class insured saturday noon l missouri , came back fed ex friday n't know exactly day came back traveling week wednesday afternoon sunday afternoon \) thing could 've bad first service rep talked , attempt prevent data , suggested take drive mechanism send case unfortunately , discovered day mailing thing , would necessitate breaking little seal thus warranty ! oh , well al albert seas ucla edu
carter cae wisc edu \( carter gregory \) subject help ! test simms \? organization u wisconsin madison college engineering lines 31 well , always try find pc dealer sells guaranteed memory work company growing 40 year , order hundreds computers per year never fails , machines come bad simms wondering pc mac crashed tell always thought incompetent ass wrote designed software well , n't think way anymore , especially results gotten replacing bad simms machine others work moral story make sure memory good would willing bet lots simms either soft hard errors n't even know , every awhile bad simms makes life hell got plain sick dealing peoples complaints thier machine crashed lost thier work case wondering , n't already guessed work department service die line work , moral memory tested simm hardware tester n't mean simple little software programs run machine simms complicated little beasts needs special hardware test effectively interested getting one nifty little devices cheap , write back make life little bit easier , besides pay short time loss productivity people would deal thier machine commits suicide greg carter
carter cae wisc edu \( carter gregory \) subject help scsi woes mac iifx organization u wisconsin madison college engineering lines 21 article 1993apr17 news unomaha edu salmon cwis unomaha edu \( david salmon \) writes according official documentation , failure use iifx terminator affect scsi bus performance also damage bus whether problem n't know scsi problems iifx since bought \( cannot connect three devices , fourth one causes major problems \) first thing try reformat drive someone elses system continue get errors probably drive formats fine would try format system fails scsi controller iifx needs repair replacement hope helps david c salmon salmon unomaha edu tried scsi bus balanced \? greg
carter cae wisc edu \( carter gregory \) subject pds vs nubus \( lc iii nubus capable \? \) organization u wisconsin madison college engineering lines 57 article bigboote wpi edu bchase bigwpi wpi edu \( bret chase \) writes article liverpool ac uk wis liverpool ac uk \( mr w sellers \) writes bill higgins beam jockey \( higgins fnalf fnal gov \) wrote article c5kzls kkb dartvax dartmouth edu , hades coos dartmouth edu \( brian v hughes \) writes mmiller garnet msen com \( marvin miller \) writes friend recently purchased lc iii wants know demon called nubus adapter pds slot \? lc family macs use pds cards able use nubus ah , \? technically hip macslinger tell us difference pds nubus \? impossible make gadget plugs pds ends nubus card cage \? least , marvin 's friend able locate one neither fundamental reason \? think exist nubus expansion cages \( i'm sure 've seen advertised occassionally \) , think main problem cost much difference price say lc iivx unless need lots nubus slots worth bother \( course , may extra boxes expensive one buys expensive \) nubus technology n't special apple thing \( sneaky feeling licensed texas instruments \? \? \? \) problem building expansion box apple uses ieee nubus 90 standard 32 bit bus \( got couple weeks ago \) well , almost nubus 90 anyway , comprehensive bus contention processors supported current macintoshes , could wrong \? however , know fact seeing cyclone data spec sheets , n't ask , macintosh cyclone models provide full implementation nubus standard interesting possibilities indeed ! stuff deleted hope helps , bret chase internet bchase wpi wpi edu macintosh ! \( 508 \) 791 smile ! wo n't kill ! wpi box \) \) \) \) \) \) \) \) 100 institute rd worcester , 01609 2280 greg
carter cae wisc edu \( carter gregory \) subject computer engr vs computer science organization u wisconsin madison college engineering distribution usa lines 91 article srvr1 engin umich edu chyang engin umich edu \( chung hsiung yang \) writes article tecot xenon stanford edu tecot xenon stanford edu \( edward tecot \) writes professor mine said difference computer engineer computer scientist 5000 meaning engineer makes 5000 p 5000 joke scott part , bunch bunk 've got computer engineering degree , yet 've spent last 7 years writing software people actually use moreover , salary distinctions incorrect received 3 job offers upon graduation two jobs actually used hardware experience 7000 year lower ! advice decide classes projects interest , pick major allows take emt well 0 02 worth advice grad student agree gentlemen wrote comment important thing pick ever interest learn much possible five years education field , though brief compare alot people , think kind question lot make right decision going electrical engineering opposed computer engineering cs \? go thru school , believe kind question irrelevant interesting , think computer technology becomming widespread enough longer position must require degree know several people work make much n't even bs degree comp sci yet make 28 year also n't pay 30 grand thier local university either \( think computer programming reduced trade practice , truly specialty field even future interested cutting edge type stuff choose cs , suggest checking emerging field software engineering difficulties example designing scaleable design environments individuals single person handle 100 , 000 1 , 000 , 000 million lines code reasonable manner incorporate teamwork enviroment truly gigantic problem going solved time soon unfortunately hey could person provides missing key good groundwork ! come believe choosing cs one like hardware choosing hardware one like program really injustice building computer making useful something everything inseparable cs , ce , ee part really great discipline depend advice n't limit , make decision based major give best opportunities learn course depends curriculum school would choose major allows explore much possible beside , n't know school would make student choose major year hey may interested field decided learn making computers case , suffer little go grad school money n't look averages , good , going earn money anyone else superstar programmer , earn millions like wise computer designers well , like poor world like , financial position continue graduate work right top 10 comp sci school trick , find generous inc work pay rest education trust best way go even n't get top salary always poor throughout school follow rule book salary food shelter always computer wo n't go hungry else could man want \? ! chung yang greg carter
eng eng fsu edu subject softpc question organization fsu college engineering lines 4 could someone give info soft pc work \? kind performance expect \? run windows adequately \? info appreciated
donald n109 z1 com \( donald \) subject pb memory sale lines 12 two meg sim came pb100 sale asking 60 \( postage included \) interested please e mail via internet internet availability may contact 301 468 reply donald internet dcl com
yang earlham edu subject accelerated mac plus problems organization earlham college , richmond , indiana lines 12 hello recently accelerated mac plus \( 25mhz accelerator \) ca n't get mac boot hard disk boots fine floppy , mount hard disk using scsi probe , cannot get boot hard drive installed new driver , n't think problem poses rather large problem 4 meg ram , need run mathematica , requires 5 meg hoping use system 7 virtual memory could run mathematica however , ca n't run system 7 floppy , ca n't get enough ram suggestions \? thanks time yang earlham edu
rhn netcom com \( ron nicholson \) subject mac superdrives read unix disks \? organization netcom online communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 8 several programs sumex allow macs superdrives read write unix tar diskettes ronald h nicholson , jr rhn netcom com , rhn com , , \( 408 \) 296 include disclaimer
subject 's chime \? husc8 harvard edu \( jonathan \) distribution usa organization harvard arts sciences computer services , cambridge , nntp posting host husc8 harvard edu reply ejhupper rs6000 cmp ilstu edu 's message sat , 24 apr 1993 21 45 38 gmt lines 27 ejhupper rs6000 cmp ilstu edu \( eric huppertz \) writes b91926 fnclub fnal gov \( david sachs \) writes chimes indicate hardware failure type system startup one thing cause chimes cable become bit loose next time power computer , check cables tight remember simple program would play chimes clicked respective buttons anyone know \? circa 1988 , think quick search index mac archive umich edu shows following available anonymous ftp site mac util developer hqx 9 7 24 90 0 chord hear push start mac ii means i'm 's passed 's internal test utility explains various sounds stand \( e various stages ram testing \) jonathan mac archive umich edu
jmilhoan magnus acs ohio state edu \( jt \) subject macintosh weenies suck scsi disks ! ! ! nntp posting host photon magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 11 unknown class user writes snip think subject title says anybody relies scsi dick pain ass ! ! anything store eventually cause discomfort time jt
ca \( michael norman \) subject powerpc old macs happens \? keywords powerpc , 680x0 macs , obsolete nntp posting host organization bell northern research lines 23 questions would like answers \( opinions \) since i'm thinking buying lc iii q1 \) powerpc based macs announced , happen 680x0 based macs \? q2 \) system 7 680x0 based macs \? ever get real multi tasking mac \? q3 \) way nubus pds equipped macs add powerpc board systems \? 'd hate think i'm going put machine 6 months part dead end product line ! thanks advance , mike norman , c bell northern research p box 3511 station 'c' ottawa ontario canada k1y 4h7 115 internet bnr ca tel \( 613 \) 763 \( fax 613 763 \) la vista , baby ! schwarzenegger
pablo ing puc cl \( pablo l \) subject file sharing magneto \? nntp posting host ing puc cl organization pontificia universidad catolica de chile x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 25 vanover \( vanover boeing com \) wrote co worker attached magneto optical drive mac works great however , tried turn file sharing , would n't work message volumes \? \? \? anyone success sharing mos \? , please tell ! hi needs insert mo get turned , one see disk owner machine \( i'm sure seems check allow owner see entire disk enabled \) bad thing ca n't eject disk fs turned hope helps pablo l mis son \( te las \) email pablo ing puc cl seeds , santiago , chile research i'm n't know i'm w von braun
drg biomath mda uth tmc edu \( david gutierrez \) subject lciii used iici get \? organization univ texas anderson cancer center lines 15 distribution world nntp posting host ratatosk mda uth tmc edu article 1993apr24 cheshire oxy edu erik cheshire oxy edu \( erik adams \) writes , long last , going replace beloved 512ke looking new lc iii used iici prices yet worked , i'm thinking right merits drawbacks 'd get iici 's expandable , fast , preserves option run system 6 david gutierrez drg biomath mda uth tmc edu fools positive moe howard
chem utah edu \( mr stress \) subject hosed hd \? organization university utah computer center lines 25 hey old \( 1990 \) external hd attached plus lab given us flawless service last week problem someone lab old 512 upgraded couple years ago plus aftermarket simm scsi setup \( \) db25 scsi plug runs back machine attaches board 26 pin rectangular connector well , guy removed back machine , put memory , disconnected scsi plug since 26 pin connector symmetrical \( keyed \) may reinstalled upside , essentially reversing pins db25 came asked could try hd scsi port \( never used \) naive fools , said k computer failed recognize drive , none computers lab recognize tried disk doctor , n't recognize anything scsi chain could installing scsi upside wrecked hd 's driver board \? drive seems spin right upon powerup events coincidental attribute problem help greatly appreciated james chem utah edu \( next mail \)
invader cs utexas edu \( michael kelly \) subject apple rgb monitor vs apple 12 color monitor organization cs dept , university texas austin lines 10 nntp posting host im4u cs utexas edu keywords apple monitor cable info old apple rgb monitor iigs looks whole lot like 12 monitor suspicion right cable could use mac anyone know suspicions correct full
po cwru edu \( juan martinez \) subject microphone organization case western reserve university lines 8 distribution world nntp posting host student cwru edu article gazette bcm tmc edu , chen nuclear med bcm tmc edu \( \) wrote got new c650 seem come microphone damn ! c650 comes microphone get cd rom drive configurations n't include one
trentu ca \( ben wolfe \) subject hardware fits mail order news software vax vms vnews 1 41 organization trent computing telecommunications department distribution usa lines 26 article 0 unix1 andrew cmu edu , christopher bruce andrew cmu edu writes ordered external floppy drive 2 years ago placed order , said stock would ship next day week passed drive called said stock drive ship 2 weeks since needed drive right away \( internal hard drive floppy dead \) cancelled order n't dealt since chris andrew cmu edu unpleasant experience hardware 's shi featured repeated lies things shipped , salesperson totally ignorant selling , charge duties specifically assured payable monitor \( house brand 2 page monochrome \) piece junk ever misfortune experience world electronics shipped back refunded money , still cost something 200 long distance charges , non taxes duties lost time n't deal
j david w reeves dartmouth edu \( j david w reeves \) subject new powerbooks \? x posted internews1 newshost dartmouth edu organization dartmouth college , hanover , nh lines 10 used hate people posted messages like , contemplating purchase , see , anyone heard upcoming \( within next 6 months \) advances powerbook line \? expect see powerpc powerbook point future \( assume 040 would take much power generate much heat installation powerbook \) \? thanks help
pw4963 ruth albany edu \( peter white \) subject clock speed centris 610 \? \? \? \? organization state university new york albany lines 11 actual clock speed centris 610 \? 20 mhz 25 mhz thanks advance peter white pw4963 csc albany edu pwhite mac archive umich edu
beach csulb edu \( jeff masud \) subject formatting possible \? \? \? organization cal state long beach lines 18 friend mine owns pc said recently got program format disk exceed normal capacity hd disk apparently rewrites driver takes driver something allows get space normal hd floppy disk supposedly gets upto 1 6 megs \( something like \? \) n't program since ca n't use supposed called something like something like question whether possible mac possible due hardware limitations developer friend mine said might possible n't deal aspect field much thanks information contributed steve
undergrad math uwaterloo ca \( ed bourne \) subject sad mac \( scsi \? \) question organization university waterloo lines 20 hooked old external mac powerbook 230 reformatted drive , copied files powerbook except , deleted files powerbook \( biggest error , sigh \) rebooted whole set chimes death get following sad mac error , ran norton claims bad scsi driver suggests used apples disk tools could n't update scsi driver claimed use , could n't even mount thing \( though could see checking scsi bus , turning booting machine first \) error refer \? right track \? anything short drive , since need data ! thanks ed bourne
drlovemd jhunix hcf jhu edu \( steve liu \) subject formatting possible \? \? \? organization homewood academic computing , johns hopkins university , baltimore , md , usa lines 78 nntp posting host jhunix hcf jhu edu applied engineering used sell 3 5 disk drive apple iigs read wrote 1 6 meg hd disk wonder drive would work mac , since i'm using old 3 5 drive iigs iisi thought tttttt eeeee vv vv eeeee tt ee vv vv ee tt eeee vv vv eeee steve liu tt ee vvv ee drlovemd jhunix hcf jhu edu tt eeeee v eeeee drlovemd jhuvms hcf jhu edu newsgroups comp sys mac hardware , comp sys mac software subject formatting possible \? \? \? summary expires references csulb edu distribution organization homewood academic computing , johns hopkins university , baltimore , md , usa keywords article csulb edu beach csulb edu \( jeff masud \) writes friend mine owns pc said recently got program format disk exceed normal capacity hd disk apparently rewrites driver takes driver something allows get space normal hd floppy disk supposedly gets upto 1 6 megs \( something like \? \) n't program since ca n't use supposed called something like something like question whether possible mac possible due hardware limitations developer friend mine said might possible n't deal aspect field much thanks information contributed steve applied engineering used sell 3 5 disk drive apple iigs read wrote 1 6 meg hd disk wonder drive would work mac , since i'm using old 3 5 drive iigs iisi thought tttttt eeeee vv vv eeeee tt ee vv vv ee tt eeee vv vv eeee steve liu tt ee vvv ee drlovemd jhunix hcf jhu edu tt eeeee v eeeee drlovemd jhuvms hcf jhu edu
goyal utdallas edu \( mohit k goyal \) subject data transfer rate new 2100 series fs 2 micropolis hd 's nntp posting host apache utdallas edu organization univ texas dallas lines 19 question y'all i'm looking ad new 3 5 fast scsi 2 drives micropolis june , 1993 , macworld \( seen similar ads ide versions ibm pc magazines \) well , ad says three drives fast scsi 2 interface , says dtr rate drive 5 megabytes second , max \? thought drive fast scsi 2 dtr second \? \( assuming sec claim micropolis 512k cache admit would impressed drive read write data second ! \) thank
jacobs cerritos edu subject problem printing quark swii organization cerritos college , norwalk ca lines 15 got problem printing printing iivx 20 megs ram trying print quark file 2 fonts couple boxes 3 gradient fills two things happen get disk full error , ca n't find documented , also parts letters one gradient fills get cut happens text fill text different box ideas \? thanks help karl jacobs jacobs cerritos edu
mwunix mitre org \( arthur \) subject quadra pds video cards summary speed quadra video heavily loaded system \? keywords quadra , video , performance nntp posting host mwunix mitre org organization mitre corporation distribution us lines 15 friend heavily midi using quadra 900 \( maybe 950 \) one nubus slot populated arcane music hardware video card reports 8 bit video slow good real time display needs see also reports built video even worse 's mac guru , n't seen system , know suspect nubus heavily loaded , think improvements might come switch accelerated pds slot video card sound right \? makes pds accelerated video card quadra thats worth looking \? suggestions \? thanks advance ! email mitre org arthur \( 713 \) 333 snail mitre corporation , 1120 nasa road one , houston , texas 77058
jon cs uwa oz au \( jon nielsen \) subject centris 610 flaky \? nntp posting host organization dept computer science , university western australia lines 35 c5ydqc 6jk cs uiuc edu scott cs uiuc edu \( jay scott \) writes rep dealer \( actually 's university order center , n't immediate financial interest \) , told lots problems centris 610 n't go details , mentioned problems floppy drive intermittent problems printing files sounded like hardware problems software compatibility problems machine 's recommending centris 610 anybody says consider centris 650 iivx \( would recommend iivx lciii n't know , 's said \) , net think \? dealer get one flaky machine , apple send c610 door early \? c610 working great , buggy \? jay scott scott cs uiuc edu sounds like dealer really wants get rid iivx 's stock imaging getting hard sell , given 1 c610 way faster , comparable price 2 lciii speed , way cheaper dealer may well trying hard convince people iivx 's much better buy c610 get rid old stock ! disrespect dealers iivx intended ! jon nielsen \( jon cs uwa edu au \) department computer science university western australia
valiant edu au \( robert b harvey \) subject disabling eject mac se organization victoria university technology , melbourne , australia lines 13 i'm trying find program stop macs spitting boot disk told one exists ca n't find anyone know find \? thanks robert harvey duty programmer information technology victoria university valiant edu au
blaine catt ncsu edu \( grey \) subject help formatting nt disk array organization north carolina state university lines 16 northern telecom disk array dated 1987 two drives units cannot get formatted set scsi id 1 software recognizes unit , cannot mount anything use drives array \? help drives possibly newer software i'm using \( fwb 0 1 1 \) greatly appreciated ! grey grey blaine catt ncsu edu smoke pot , dodge draft , cheat eos ncsu edu wife , become president ncsu catt program american dream
nyx cs du edu \( stacy sherman \) subject monitors kept 24 hours day \? \? \? x disclaimer nyx public access unix system run university denver denver community university neither control responsibility opinions users organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept lines 34 questions subject like leave computer think i'm going using next 2 3 hours , get sick dad constantly coming asking computer 're using \? also wonder computer harmed fluctuations voltage things \( garbage disposal , etc \) questions much harm voltage fluctuations cause \? computer share circuit anything big light refrigerator comes garbage disposal turned \( whose n't \? \) , also washing machine anything things cause drop voltage harmful computer , right \? also notice fan system saver turning different speeds safer turn back want use leave \? much electricity computer use \? apple iigs \( ne flames \) , kensington system saver gs \( 1 electric fan inside \) , rgb monitor , external 3 5 hd \( 1 fan p \) translate kilowatt hours \? also , much used monitor \? monitor use considerably less juice screen totally black still \? many computers spin hd constantly save power always thought harmful hd defeats purpose leaving computer first place \( except \) true \? thanks info think help lots people stacy
cs cmu edu \( brian noble \) subject x server scanline padding question nntp posting host bach coda cs cmu edu organization school computer science , carnegie mellon lines 42 almost done porting xfree86 1 2 new piece display hardware , run snag think may somewhat commonplace , i'm sending net display non interlaced , memory mapped , 1 bit display server 's view world , \( obtained via xwd xwud \) , seems exactly however , displayed version framebuffer gives impression server using long bit experimentation , seems problem server padding line word , scanline size buffer 90 bytes , n't exactly four changing following defines mit server include h define bitmap scanline pad 32 define bitmap pad 5 define bytes per scanline pad 2 define bitmap scanline pad 16 define bitmap pad 4 define bytes per scanline pad 2 exactly right solution tell server either \( \) n't pad scan lines \( 'cause server built run particular display \) , pad byte \? i'm using customized version 2 , mach 3 0 thanks brian
saint mitchell hac com \( kathy saint \) subject callback parameter problem x11r5 upgrade organization hughes aircraft company lines 24 've recently upgraded x11 r5 running problems applications use motif 1 1 appears pointer widget passed callback function \( e , w \( w , client , call \) \) nil client call pointers okay instances , bogus instances running sunos 4 1 2 sun 4 compiling x11r5 23 patches \( flag set \) , recompiled motif recompiled application skip step leave something \? flag used \? left motif alone \? answers suggestions would greatly appreciated thanks kathy kathy saint 's witch ! ! 's witch ! ! i'm dead yet tell 's witch \? looks like one ! ! saint mitchell hac com python holy grail
ron cr com \( r \) subject request unsubscribe organization internet lines 11 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu please remove mailing list finally got news feed ! ron l ron collaborative research inc 617 487 ron com main street 617 891 \( fax \) waltham , 02154
vaughan dsto gov au \( vaughan clarkson \) subject connecting digitiser x \( repost \) organization defence science technology organisation , , south australia lines 32 nntp posting host caesar dsto gov au hi \( posted comp windows x intrinsics got response , i'm posting \) i'm wanting connect digitiser made pcs workstation \( hp 720 \) understanding x windows understand variety input devices including digitiser tablets however , digitiser makes use serial port , would seem need special device driver hp manual pages say hp x server accept x input devices listed usr lib x11 x devices file \( display number \) n't think would able simply insert dev input device file expect digitiser work maybe i'm wrong \? would like know anybody digitiser connected workstation use pointer x \( rather input specific x application \) \? , steps required installation \? need special device driver \? manufacturer supply \? generic public domain device drivers around \? \( understand generally use couple standard formats \) help would greatly appreciated cheers vaughan vaughan clarkson email vaughan dsto gov au engineering ph student phone 61 8 259 pilot fax 61 8 259 \( \)
derrick j brashear db74 andrew cmu edu subject summary virtual mouse ol v wm organization sophomore , civil engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 25 nntp posting host po5 andrew cmu edu got following today gary risebrough worked fine excerpts mail 29 apr 93 ol v wm 3 virtual gov au \( 554 \) hi , regard following lines xresources olwm keyboardcommands full olvwm keyboardcommands full olwm true olvwm true openwindows keyboardcommands full openwindows virtualgrabkeys false seems work cheers ! gary phone 61 2 563 gary gov au
mufti uucp \( saad mufti \) subject problem xterm , access tty organization personal library software , inc lines 19 i'm running xterm x11r5 , motif 1 1 , mwm unix svr4 unisys 386 based machine default shell bin csh c shell whenever run xterm , get following message first c shell prompt warning access tty thus job control shell , ca n't run job control commands like fg , bg etc also , ca n't run another xterm command line xterm \( launch additional xterms menu \) 'd appreciate help problem , pointers get help way , environment variable term set xterm saad mufti personal library software e mail mufti pls com
nimbus com \( spencer greene \) subject change sun fb writes dword \? organization nimbus technology inc \( formerly c2 technology \) distribution comp lines 14 hello xperts 've built x11r5 sunos 4 1 1 sparc gcc 2 2 'd like use 64 bit capability generate x11 release render frame buffer using store double \( 64 bit \) machine code anyone tell directories source files compiler switches begin \? thanks advance spencer greene 1 408 727 nimbus technology inc nimbus com santa clara , california usa sgiblab , ub gate ! ! patriotism last refuge scoundrel dr samuel johnson
subject xv 3 00 escaped ! sands ccu1 aukuni ac nz \( greg sands \) reply g sands auckland ac nz organization university auckland lines 13 bradley grip cis upenn edu \( john bradley \) writes found , answers name 'contrib xv 3 00 tar z' even think getting , going posted comp sources x time near future \? greg greg sands department engineering science university auckland g sands auckland ac nz new zealand
subject xlib functions known problem \? \? \? visser bhp com au \( martin visser \) distribution world nntp posting host bhp com au lines 27 've found problem use xlib functions regarding decided implement animated cursor \( using 6 created cursors \) calling sig signal handler used indicate waiting operator request complete \( production control system \) redrawing screen underneath animated cursor restoring standard cursor complete found dumped core , upon analysis sig handler called call bcopy \( presumably internal structure \) called presumably \( internal \) structure manipulating stable state sent n't anyone else experienced \? official documentation says ensure n't happen \? bcopy \( \) atomic running sgi irix 4 0 1 x11r4 regards , martin martin visser electrical software engineer engineering technology department bhp steel slab plate products division p box wollongong nsw 2500 australia phone 61 42 75 ext fax 61 42 75 e mail visser bhp com au
klute tommy informatik uni dortmund de \( rainer klute \) subject imake tex looking beta testers organization cs department , dortmund university , germany lines 59 distribution world nntp posting host tommy informatik uni dortmund de article fbi news informatik uni dortmund de , klute tommy informatik uni dortmund de \( rainer klute \) writes announced x technical conference january , would like make imake tex , imake support using tex typesetting system , publically available currently imake tex beta test computer science department dortmund university , looking beta testers , preferably different tex imake installations judging responses far , made clear enough article quoted imake tex installing tex , using imake tex , never fiddle around calling latex various utility programs \( , bibtex \) simply type make document 's dvi file date write simple imakefile let imake generate suitable makefile imakefile include tex tmpl \( \) \( document \) generated makefile provides following commands make depend searching tex source files like input make dvi generate date dvi file make display screen make ps generate postscript version document make display make clean remove unnecessary things make remove even dvi file make makefiles generate makefiles subdirectories \) seems attractive , b \) willing test imake tex send short test report , c \) willing cope english documentation \( however , german version completed included \) , invited beta tester looking forward e mail dipl inform rainer klute r b immer richtig beraten univ dortmund , irb postfach 500500 \) tel 49 231 755 4663 w4600 dortmund 50 fax 49 231 755 2386 new address june 30th univ dortmund , 44221 dortmund
fr \( joseph \) subject xv 3 00 escaped ! reply fr \( joseph \) organization , , france lines 20 article 123645 netnews upenn edu , bradley grip cis upenn edu \( john bradley \) writes bradley grip cis upenn edu \( john bradley \) subject xv 3 00 escaped ! date 28 apr 93 01 27 46 gmt , another false alarm , 'll certainly done next week message , real thing repeat , drill ! batten hatches , hide women , lock cows , xv 3 00 finally escaped cleaning cage morning overpowered , broke office door , fled lab last seen heading general direction export lcs mit edu nearly 30k per second found , answers name 'contrib xv 3 00 tar z' blast i'm vacation capital u waco , texas
muenchen de subject german keyboard alt gr \? keywords alt gr german keyboard organization leibniz rechenzentrum , muenchen \( germany \) lines 25 hi ppl , running linux 0 trying get german keyboard working already recompiled kernel german keyboard works fine found , german keymap x called xmodmap gr usr lib x11 , ran xmodmap usr lib x11 xmodmap gr first impression good , able get z straight \) 's still little problem ca n't solve however cannot get , bar , brackets curly brackets alt gr key n't seem work tried xev find whether produces event looking keycode \( 113 \) xmodmap found entry mode switch n't ring bell entries keys cannot use seem correct example keycode xx first 2 entries even get first one unmodified key second key shift , 3rd \? \? guess key alt gr n't anybody run similar problems knows solve , help would appreciated cu
9130037 golum riv csu edu au \( chan yin mei \) subject help ! anything x originator 9130037 golum riv csu edu au organization charles sturt university riverina , wagga wagga , nsw , australia lines 24 thu apr 29 16 36 43 1993 date thu , 29 apr 1993 16 36 42 1000 \( gavin \) 9130037 status r hello , folks uni project wondering could supply specific info references info regarding 1 \) considerations installation xwindows hp 9000 \( unknown model \) 2 \) motif , openlook , \? \? \? \? 3 \) x11 , 4 \) glossary term x considering software project deals image analysis info would greatly appreciated please email 9130037 golum riv csu edu au
9130037 golum riv csu edu au \( chan yin mei \) subject help ! anything x originator 9130037 golum riv csu edu au organization charles sturt university riverina , wagga wagga , nsw , australia lines 24 thu apr 29 16 36 43 1993 date thu , 29 apr 1993 16 36 42 1000 \( gavin \) 9130037 status r hello , folks uni project wondering could supply specific info references info regarding 1 \) considerations installation xwindows hp 9000 \( unknown model \) 2 \) motif , openlook , , linux \? \? \? \? 3 \) x11 , 4 \) glossary term x considering software project deals image analysis info would greatly appreciated please email 9130037 golum riv csu edu au
spatel cs tamu edu \( k patel \) subject background processing x applications organization computer science department , texas university lines 31 distribution world nntp posting host cs tamu edu written server program makes socket connections many nodes collects data nodes periodically need display data x application tried invoke server using works ok problem time delay collecting data n't returns time application remains busy n't respond users input button press events queued server finished task going try call reads pipe something read pipe thinking creating one pipe server write client x application read doubts may able clarify 1 \) fork process create copy process right ! ! two copies mean \? two shells fork application responsibilities processes call processes \? 2 \) fork one processes read one servers input thanks patel spatel cs tamu edu
netcom com \( \) subject sources vuewm gadgets organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 7 anyone know sites resources find gadgets vuewm window manager \? types , actions , icons file manager event manager etc tanks , input appreciated
casper fwi uva nl \( casper h dik \) subject xsun finding default font \( 1 \) nntp posting host adam fwi uva nl organization fwi , university amsterdam lines 36 joel z code com \( joel reymont \) writes hi , netters ! 've built x11r5 pl 21 solaris 2 1 've used multi screen patch , well r5 sunos patch everything builds great , except error message xsun gives upon startup says cannot set default font path ' stuff deleted ' cannot set default font supply fp option , n't complain font path still complains font usr lib place distribution lives try run xsun truss \( 1 \) best way logging network typing truss open xsun open \( opt x11r5 lib x11 fonts misc fonts dir , rdonly , 0666 \) 8 open \( opt x11r5 lib x11 fonts misc fonts alias , rdonly , 0666 \) 8 open \( opt x11r5 lib x11 fonts speedo fonts dir , rdonly , 0666 \) 8 open \( opt x11r5 lib x11 fonts speedo fonts alias , rdonly , 0666 \) err 2 open \( opt x11r5 lib x11 fonts 75dpi fonts dir , rdonly , 0666 \) 8 open \( opt x11r5 lib x11 fonts 75dpi fonts alias , rdonly , 0666 \) 8 open \( opt x11r5 lib x11 fonts 100dpi fonts dir , rdonly , 0666 \) 8 open \( opt x11r5 lib x11 fonts 100dpi fonts alias , rdonly , 0666 \) 8 open \( opt x11r5 lib x11 fonts misc pcf , rdonly , 0666 \) 8 open \( opt x11r5 lib x11 fonts misc cursor pcf , rdonly , 0666 \) 8 give idea xsun things fonts defined project root done make install , everything gone right default , even without symbolic links casper
wilde bernina tik ethz ch \( erik wilde \) subject x audio extension reply wilde tik ethz ch organization swiss federal institute technology \( eth \) , zurich , ch x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 10 official extension x allows use audio \? x audio programs use system specific ways access audio capabilities computer run hardware independent way \( like video extension xv \) \? thanks help erik wilde \( wilde tik ethz ch \) swiss federal institute technology \( eth \) laboratory computer engineering networks \( tik \) eth zentrum , 2 , ch phone 41 1 254 fax 41 1 251
klute tommy informatik uni dortmund de \( rainer klute \) subject imake tex looking beta testers organization cs department , dortmund university , germany lines 14 distribution world nntp posting host tommy informatik uni dortmund de announced x technical conference january , would like make imake tex , imake support using tex typesetting system , publically available currently imake tex beta test computer science department dortmund university , looking beta testers , preferably different tex imake installations dipl inform rainer klute r b immer richtig beraten univ dortmund , irb postfach 500500 \) tel 49 231 755 4663 w4600 dortmund 50 fax 49 231 755 2386 new address june 30th univ dortmund , 44221 dortmund
marcus iiasa ac \( marcus \) subject save x11r5 organization international institute applied systems analysis x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 24 hans bos \( hans xelion nl \) wrote following problem x11r5 servers window obscured pop window save attribute set , subwindows window restored normally , subwindows redrawn parent window gets expose event , save attribute used pop window obscured window , expose event sent problem machines works use backing store instead save marcus marcus marcus iiasa ac international institute applied systems analysis iiasa austria phone \( 43 \) 715 21 487 fax \( 43 \) 731 48 vice commissioner australian rules internet football league \( \) 1992 , 1993 ,
sherman lea csc ncsu edu \( chris sherman \) subject xv 3 00 escaped ! organization ncsu lines 45 123645 netnews upenn edu bradley grip cis upenn edu \( john bradley \) writes batten hatches , hide women , lock cows , xv 3 00 finally escaped really bums xv went shareware xv shareware personal use may use xv mean anyway \? sit company look pictures net spare time \? amusement , find nifty , useful , generally cool , value , non deductable donation would greatly appreciated 25 suggested donation , though , course , larger donations quite welcome folks donate 25 receive real nice bound copy xv manual extra charge commercial , government , institutional users must register copies xv , exceedingly reasonable price 25 per workstation x terminal site licenses available wish run xv large number machines contact author details since universities institutions \( right \? \) , n't mean everyone world affected \? \( n't believe many running x windows home yet , relatively speaking \) author legally sell xv \? xv uses tiff jpeg code developed others author get permission sell works \? author also get permission people contributed xv sell work well \? guess nobody going want help author maintain code anymore xv become commercial product , support xv begin slide downhill case , 's bummer really liked xv chris sherman sherman lea csc ncsu edu
spang nbivax nbi dk \( karsten spang \) subject cannot create 24 plane window organization niels bohr institute , copenhagen lines 59 hello problem able create window 24 bit planes following code illustrates problem include stdio h include x11 xlib h include x11 h main \( \) display display window win xvisualinfo vinfo colormap colormap xsetwindowattributes attributes xevent event status status display xopendisplay \( null \) status \( display , defaultscreen \( display \) , 24 , truecolor , vinfo \) \( ! status \) fprintf \( stderr , visual found n \) exit \( 1 \) colormap xcreatecolormap \( display , defaultrootwindow \( display \) , vinfo visual , \) attributes colormap colormap win xcreatewindow \( display , defaultrootwindow \( display \) , 0 , 0 , 100 , 100 , 0 , 24 , inputoutput , vinfo visual , cwcolormap , attributes \) xmapwindow \( display , win \) \( \) xnextevent \( display , event \) tried sgi 24 plane truecolor server , hp 9000 700 24 plane directcolor server \( obviously neccessary change \) , running x11r4 client side , tried x11r4 xlib hp 9000 700 decstation , x11r3 xlib decstation combinations gave badmatch error request far tell manual , attribute may give badmatch , colormap , belongs wrong visual visual correctly matched , get error message wrong \? information tell xwud error karsten internet krs dk karsten spang phone 45 36 77 22 23 data fax 45 36 77 03 01 p box 1142 dk denmark
lindholm ucs ubc ca \( george lindholm \) subject xv 3 00 escaped ! organization university computing services , ubc , canada lines 176 nntp posting host swiss ucs ubc ca article 123645 netnews upenn edu bradley grip cis upenn edu \( john bradley \) writes , another false alarm , 'll certainly done next week message , real thing repeat , drill ! batten hatches , hide women , lock cows , xv 3 00 finally escaped cleaning cage morning overpowered , broke office door , fled lab last seen heading general direction export lcs mit edu nearly 30k per second found , answers name 'contrib xv 3 00 tar z' blast i'm vacation capital u waco , texas first patch \) following fixes problems imakefile files makes possible compile xv 3 00 solaris without use ucb stuff 1 1 1993 04 28 06 05 03 imakefile 1993 04 28 08 20 35 209 , 215 xcmap programs xv bggen xcmap ! defined \( havejpeg \) defined \( \) ifdef havejpeg 209 , 218 xcmap programs xv bggen xcmap ! ! echo ! echo remember 'make first \? ! echo defined \( havejpeg \) defined \( \) ifdef havejpeg 222 , 238 subdirs tiff endif define passcdebugflags \( \( subdirs \) \) \( \( \) \) endif echo echo remember 'make first \? echo echo building xv echo 225 , 236 subdirs tiff endif define passcdebugflags define \( \( subdirs \) \) endif echo building xv echo 259 , 267 srcs \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) dependtarget \( \) \( \( programs \) \) normalprogramtarget \( xv , \( \) , \( deplibs \) , \( local libraries \) , \) normalprogramtarget \( bggen , \( \) , \( deplibs \) , \( local libraries \) , \) 257 , 269 srcs \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \( programs \) \) dependtarget \( \) ifdef \( \( subdirs \) \) endif normalprogramtarget \( xv , \( \) , \( deplibs \) , \( local libraries \) , \) normalprogramtarget \( bggen , \( \) , \( deplibs \) , \( local libraries \) , \) 1 1 1993 04 28 08 33 13 xv h 1993 04 28 08 19 31 284 , 292 284 , 298 signal macros defined \( sun \) defined \( sysv \) define hold sig \( sigalrm \) define release sig \( 0 \) define pause sig sigpause \( 0 \) else define hold sig sigblock \( \( sigalrm \) \) define release sig sigblock \( 0 \) define pause sig sigpause \( 0 \) endif default folks 318 , 323 324 , 333 define random rand define srandom srand endif defined \( sun \) defined \( sysv \) define random \( \) rand \( \) define srandom \( x \) srand \( x \) endif 1 1 1993 04 28 06 09 50 xcmap c 1993 04 28 07 09 03 9 , 15 9 , 19 include files include stdio h defined \( sun \) defined \( sysv \) include string h else include strings h endif include ctype h include x11 h 1 1 1993 04 28 06 17 41 tiff imakefile 1993 04 28 08 53 34 49 , 59 49 , 69 tif compress imakefile g3states h mkg3states c t4 h rm g3states h cc traditional mkg3states cflags mkg3states c mkg3states g3states h rm g3states h else g3states h mkg3states c t4 h rm g3states h cc mkg3states cflags mkg3states c mkg3states g3states h rm g3states h endif depend g3states h clean rm mkg3states g3states h dependtarget \( \) george lindholm phone \( 604 \) 822 university computing services , ubc fax \( 604 \) 822 agricultural road , vancouver , b c , canada internet lindholm ucs ubc ca v6t bitnet
rainer sun3 eeam elin co \( rainer hochreiter \) subject x server organization elin energeanwendung ges b h lines 12 nntp posting host sun3 eeam elin co x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 get documentation x server internals \? btw , i'm also interested documentation tiga hints welcome thanks , rainer rainer hochreiter telephone 43 \( 1 \) 89100 3961 elin energieanwendung gesmbh telefax 43 \( 1 \) 89100 3387 penzingerstr 76 1141 wien , austria europe e mail rainer elin co
j k wight newcastle ac uk \( jim wight \) subject menubutton widget question organization internet lines 24 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu scott evans server cs virginia edu writes i'm trying create button label bitmap using menubutton widget possible \? right , get bitmap sign label 's expected first sentence describing bitmap resource menubutton section athena widget set c language interface documentation states bitmap bitmap display instead label one way round might make use button 's backgroundpixmap resource , remember , user application , wo n't able set resource file also , button wo n't automatically size bitmap bitmap tiled necessary , could set button 's dimensions match size jim j k wight newcastle ac uk department computing science , university newcastle , tel 44 91 222 8238 newcastle upon tyne , ne1 7ru , united kingdom fax 44 91 222 8232
julian comp lancs ac uk \( julian g self \) subject xv 3 00 escaped ! organization department computing lancaster university , uk lines 19 n't shareware fee suggestion john \? 's individual make choice whether honour part money personally position would exactly thing , john obviously put lot time effort xv n't receive money pennies worth \( keep good work john \) julian name julian g self phone 44 524 ext email julian comp lancs ac uk fax 44 524 post university lancaster , department computing , engineering building , , lancaster , , , united kingdom
network com \( john irish \) subject button sensitivity problem motif app openwindows nntp posting host network com organization network systems corporation lines 25 motif application consists multiple transient shells children single toplevel shell transient shell popped , application modifies sensitivity button toplevel shell hidden transient shell window transient shell popped , button sensitivity correct button text remains unchanged \( e , solid shaded \) subsequent selection button causes text revert correct visual state tracing event messages sent application , many events seen mwm present openwindows anyone suggestions solutions please post send mail thanks !
spang nbivax nbi dk \( karsten spang \) subject cannot create 24 plane window \( summary \) organization niels bohr institute , copenhagen lines 51 article 1993apr28 nbivax nbi dk , spang nbivax nbi dk \( karsten spang \) writes problem able create window 24 bit planes gave badmatch error request far tell manual , attribute may give badmatch , colormap , belongs wrong visual visual correctly matched got several answers , complete crary \( tv tv tek com \) looked r4 server listings \( mit server window c \) several ways get badmatch error , even though o'reilly book says inputonly 1 \( \( class inputonly \) \( \( bw ! 0 \) \( depth ! 0 \) \) \) 2 find depth visual acceptable screen 3 \( \( \( \( \) \) 0 \) \( class ! inputonly \) \( depth ! drawable depth \) \) 4 \( \( \( cwcolormap \) 0 \) \( class ! inputonly \) \( \( visual ! visual \) \( colormap none \) \) \) , case 1 inputonly case seems o'reilly case case 2 case since got visual screen case 3 looks suspicious giving attribute mask , since visual parent depth , would suspect need supply border pixel new colormap going use window case 4 seem problem since supply cwcolormap attributes thanks help karsten internet krs dk karsten spang phone 45 36 77 22 23 data fax 45 36 77 03 01 p box 1142 dk denmark
tgl cs cmu edu \( tom lane \) subject xv 3 00 escaped ! nntp posting host g gp cs cmu edu organization independent jpeg group lines 29 sherman lea csc ncsu edu \( chris sherman \) gripes really bums xv went shareware xv 's shareware year n't noticed \? n't problem john bradley put hell lot work xv , feels 's time get monetary reward , 's surely right author legally sell xv \? xv uses tiff jpeg code developed others author get permission sell works \? bothered consult distribution terms ijg jpeg code \( right xv distribution \) , would observed specifically grant permission use shareware commercial software sam leffler 's libtiff copyright also grants permission unrestricted use including resale guess nobody going want help author maintain code anymore xv become commercial product , commercial \? 's big difference polite request voluntary donation commercial , 's illegal copy 'll sic lawyers software agree john 's readme file could little clearer means personal use regards , tom lane organizer , independent jpeg group
oj world std com \( oliver jones \) subject xlib timeouts \? keywords xlib timeouts organization shawsheen software lines 12 article ccdw kudu ccdw kudu ru ac za \( dave wilson \) writes process modifying x application uses xlib 'd like include timer driven facility \( network polling \) sorts things xt main loop , rig timer queue , put select \( 2 \) poll \( 2 \) call main loop obtain file descriptor x display connection using fd \( display \) functionality main loop xt quite useful good news , get source !
cas org \( larry w virden \) subject summary virtual mouse ol v wm reply lvirden cas org \( larry w virden \) organization software shoe , uninc lines 21 article andrew cmu edu derrick j brashear db74 andrew cmu edu writes got following today gary risebrough worked fine excerpts mail 29 apr 93 ol v wm 3 virtual gov au \( 554 \) openwindows keyboardcommands full openwindows virtualgrabkeys false seems work find man pages virtualgrabkeys resource n't show openwindows 3 0 man pages larry w virden inet lvirden cas org personal 674 falls place , , oh
klute tommy informatik uni dortmund de \( rainer klute \) subject imake tex looking beta testers organization cs department , dortmund university , germany lines 22 nntp posting host tommy informatik uni dortmund de article fbi news informatik uni dortmund de , klute tommy informatik uni dortmund de \( rainer klute \) writes \) seems attractive , b \) willing test imake tex send short test report , c \) willing cope english documentation \( however , german version completed included \) , invited beta tester looking forward e mail please n't respond anymore , enough beta testers thank dipl inform rainer klute r b immer richtig beraten univ dortmund , irb postfach 500500 \) tel 49 231 755 4663 w4600 dortmund 50 fax 49 231 755 2386 new address june 30th univ dortmund , 44221 dortmund
orion spd louisville edu \( rick \) subject need help mit magic cookie nntp posting host orion spd louisville edu organization university louisville lines 39 i'm trying turn using mit magic cookie servers \( cpu heads , xterminals \) , i'm running couple problems first , least one applications \( maple \) n't seem understand deliver magic cookie , wo n't run display authorization turned second , people client software remote machines , really n't want hassle copy xauthority file remote machine assuming clients support , would like turn mit magic cookie default , non privileged users able turn dropping back host based authorization \( yes , know turn changing xconfig file heads client authorize setting xterminals , non privileged users ca n't \) 've checked hp support line , n't appear way anyone confirm , know way accomplish want \? btw , i'm running hpux 9 0 , vue 3 0 thanks advance , rick rick electrical engineering department , speed scientific school university louisville , louisville , ky \( 502 \) 588 7020 internet starbase spd louisville edu disclaimer i'm stand comedian anyone takes seriously , i'm something wrong !
malik 2 uni kl de \( thomas malik \) subject overriding default wm behaviour organization kaiserslautern lines 3 distribution world nntp posting host ws 406 uni kl de specify \( \? \) places windows interactively pseudo random positions screens
ornl gov \( \) subject events multiple clients reply ornl gov \( \) organization oak ridge national laboratory lines 14 capture events multiple clients \? want know user still display locking screen get keypress pointer motion events , user pressing mouse button location \( mouse n't move \) ca n't capture events o'reilly xlib programming manual \( vol 1 \) says page 252 one client select button events one window one time , due grab automatically takes place help would appreciated ornl gov
snail lsl co uk subject congruent corporation x motif windows nt organization laser scan ltd , cambridge lines 22 ok , many people emailed asking information congruent corporation 's product allows x motif unix applications function windows nt today sent telephone number kind person name sam \( 'd give better attribution , mail different application vms \( \) number call new york city \( 212 \) 431 5100 email address info congruent com product details know said 'd send email info , yet arrived get cheers folks ! snail lsl co uk washing one 's hands conflict powerful powerless means side powerful , neutral quote freire poster
snail lsl co uk subject congruent corporation x motif info ! organization laser scan ltd , cambridge lines 61 follows \( editing \) email message full \( except header \) sent congruent corporation today received 5 minutes ago , still n't read fun product overview allows existing unix x applications hosted windows nt includes common x support clients supports x terminals provides multiuser nt facilitates porting unix x applications window nt bsd behavior x programming libraries target market customers unix x applications want windows nt allows hosting windows nt minimal effort permits x clients single windows nt system support multiple users x servers x terminals , unix based , nt based , windows based bsd library behavior minimize unix porting effort standard c libraries winsock nt registry path drive replacement bsd include file layout true berkeley sockets supplies common bsd functions missing nt x programming libraries complete x v11r5 libraries motif widget libraries motif uil registry based x configuration direct windows gdi via local socket 0 x support applications includes full set x client applications motif window manager \( mwm \) multiuser nt capabilities special adaptation xterm special nt hosted command shell provides logname , home facilities multiple users multiple x servers simultaneously access single nt system x terminal support bootp boot x terminals font loading font server scaled x fonts xremote serial slip x info com congruent \( congruent information \) snail lsl co uk washing one 's hands conflict powerful powerless means side powerful , neutral quote freire poster
dac cbnewsf cb att com \( david \) subject click focus vs point focus \? organization lines 12 problem ensuring point focus mouse cursor enters window application i'm using interviews , may matter , seems generic problem x example , use openwindows sparc2 , point focus set , generally works , always , depending going window move cursor one shell tool window another seems question , , within x guarantee point focus within application \? thanks response dave
howdy wustl edu \( larry roger \) subject x amiga 4000 nntp posting host howdy organization washington u physics dept lines 7 hi , couple articles posted group day subject heading unfortunately , expired could read could really use xterm like thing amiga 4000 could give information thanks , larry r
lennart blade stack urc tue nl \( lennart \) subject wanted diagram drawing program organization stack , eindhoven university technology , netherlands lines 38 nntp posting host blade stack urc tue nl x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 looking program draw various kinds diagrams linux system must free must run standard \( monochrome \) x small screen size \( 800x600 \) motif openlook etc must compile linux gcc g generic unix software works ok must produce postscript files include latex documents tell another free program converts one supported formats ps must produce drawings larger window size \( \) know several programs , idraw , xfig tgif experience features would like programs ability draw circles , arcs , straight lines , boxes arrows support dashed solid line styles objects support texts size ability move copy resize rotate part drawing ability turn part drawing library component \( e g transistor symbol composed three lines , arrow circle \) aid \( numeric coordinates , screen grid \) align parts drawing less essential , fact handy preservation connection move one part drawing , lines connect part rest drawing , stay connected ideally want tool general flexible comfortable draw electronic schematics , flow charts , logic diagrams , data flow diagrams block diagrams want know programs offer features programs \? demanding programs respect disk space , memory cpu usage \? programs known work linux monochrome x \? lennart
wilfred hansen cs cmu edu subject 2 version andrew 5 1 organization carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 97 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xannounce expo lcs mit edu andrew consortium school computer science carnegie mellon pleased announce auis 5 1 1 2 4 26 93 andrew user interface system version 5 1 \( cdrom version \) developed aix version 3 1 ibm rs 6000 many platforms accomodate aix version 3 2 , created patch sources patch accompanying instructions application retrieved charge via anonymous ftp internet host andrew cmu edu \( 128 2 45 40 \) directory without internet access , 3 5 diskette ordered 10 sending , faxing , purchase order address base 5 1 system ordered us cdrom ftp'ed host note patch adds additional functionality simply allows auis compile 2 andrew user interface system \( auis \) comprehensive environment top x11 windows create , use , mail multi media applications documents major advantage auis capability embed objects thus , one edit text contains multiple fonts , , , also contains embedded raster images , spreadsheets , drawing editors , equations , simple animations , embedded objects contain objects , including text auis three components andrew user environment integrated extensible set applications beginning ez text editor , help system , system monitoring tool , editor based shell interface , editors corresponding various available types objects andrew toolkit \( atk \) portable , object oriented user interface toolkit provides architecture wherein objects embedded one another toolkit , programmers create new objects embedded easily come system andrew message system \( ams \) provides multi media interface mail bulletin boards ams supports several mail management strategies implements many advanced features including authentication , return receipts , automatic sorting mail , vote collection , , audit trails related messages , subscription management also provides variety interfaces support low function personal computers addition high function workstations current public release andrew , version 5 1 , includes support new internet mime \( multipurpose internet mail extensions \) standards , multimedia mail newer release , 5 2 , members andrew consortium numerous additional features including new editors drawings , images , fonts , user preferences remote andrew demo service try andrew work station via remote andrew demo service need host machine internet running x11 window system 'll able compose multimedia documents , navigate interactive andrew tour , use andrew message system browse cmu 's four thousand bulletin boards newsgroups get started remote andrew demo service , simply run following command machine finger help atk itc cmu edu service give instructions information andrew available information requests andrew consortium carnegie mellon university smith hall 106 5000 forbes avenue pittsburgh , pa 15213 3890 usa phone 1 412 268 6710 fax 1 412 682 info andrew request andrew cmu edu contact info andrew request andrew cmu edu additional information
rpicas porto inescn pt \( rui picas \) subject subscrive organization internet lines 3 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert export lcs mit edu please subscrive rpicas porto inescn pt
umiacs umd edu \( stephen kelley \) subject x11r5 vs x11r4 configure event handling organization umiacs , university maryland , college park , md 20742 lines 31 repost two questions \( well probably \) expose configure events handled appl uses 1 window draw since give user capability scaling zooming well allowing window resized , made translation table expose configure events expose event calls redraw method configure event calls rescale method rescale method invokes fake expose event \( actually calls redraw w appropriate expose struct \) draw data quest 1 appl compiled linked w r4 \( running either r4 r5 env \) get multiple \( 4 \) redraws window gets uncovered size changed assume i'm getting events right \? suggestions handle trap events better way \? quest 2 appl compiled linked w r5 get expose events whatsoever events translation tables act differently r5 \? thanks advance steve kelley cs umiacs captain , protest ! umiacs umd edu merry man ! worf
mmc cs rit edu \( mahendra \) subject print within application organization rochester institute technology lines 27 nntp posting host hi , application draws graphs , bar charts etc need include print support within application e user print graphs within clicking print button sure invoke xwd xpr within application specify window id get window dump send file printing ways would appreciate help regard thanx mahendra ps please mail replies regular reader news group post summary sufficient interest mahendra mmc cs rit edu ritvax isc rit edu office residence dept computer science 440 kimball drive rochester institute tech rochester , ny tel 716 475 tel 716 292
rpicas porto inescn pt \( rui picas \) subject subscribe organization internet lines 3 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert export lcs mit edu please subscribe e mail rpicas porto inescn pt
david pop \( david e smyth \) subject looking david e smyth organization jet propulsion laboratory \( nasa \) lines 23 nntp posting host pop christian mollard ec bull fr writes zvi nynexst com \( zvi \) writes author wcl \( current care taker \) name found dist tree tried mail david smyth ap mchp sni de , mail bounced back help finding greatly appreciated try david uucp david siemens com nope , david jpl devvax jpl nasa gov david smyth david jpl devvax jpl nasa gov senior software engineer , \( 818 \) 306 \( use v mail yet ! \) , x object guru office 525 jet propulsion lab , 525 3660 4800 oak grove drive , pasadena , ca 91109 sun windows thingy , 's called \? know , really awful x \? motif \? 's motif ! yuck !
rpicas porto inescn pt \( rui picas \) subject subscrive organization internet lines 3 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert export lcs mit edu please subscribe e mail rpicas porto inescn pt
kelsey comm mot com \( joe kelsey \) subject xv 3 00 escaped ! organization motorola , mobile data division seattle , wa lines 53 skeena ucs ubc ca lindholm ucs ubc ca \( george lindholm \) writes article skeena ucs ubc ca , lindholm ucs ubc ca \( george lindholm \) writes article 123645 netnews upenn edu bradley grip cis upenn edu \( john bradley \) writes first patch \) following fixes problems imakefile files makes possible compile xv 3 00 solaris without use ucb stuff oops , n't get signal processing right \( thats get work ascii terminal \) fixed patch patches xv h need use `` ifdef rather overly complex `` defined \( sun \) defined \( sysv \) '' order compile xv also , rand srand n't work well use get better results otherwise , xv 3 00 compiles fine esix system v 4 0 4 box xfree86 gcc 2 3 3 gcc definition makefile , added l usr x386 lib usr x386 include copts line modified libs include lsocket lnsl really john , use imakefile things like n't even get mentioned 1 1 1993 04 28 08 33 13 xv h 1993 04 28 17 47 38 284 , 292 284 , 298 signal macros ifdef svr4 define hold sig \( sigalrm \) define release sig \( sigalrm \) define pause sig sigpause \( sigalrm \) else define hold sig sigblock \( \( sigalrm \) \) define release sig sigblock \( 0 \) define pause sig sigpause \( 0 \) endif default folks 318 , 323 324 , 333 define random rand define srandom srand endif ifdef svr4 define random define srandom endif
bingle cs purdue edu \( richard bingle \) subject xv 3 00 escaped ! 1993apr29 102341 13820 comp lancs ac uk organization purdue university lines 89 nntp posting host denali cs purdue edu reply julian comp lancs ac uk 's message thu , 29 apr 1993 10 23 41 gmt article 1993apr29 102341 13820 comp lancs ac uk julian comp lancs ac uk \( julian g self \) writes n't shareware fee suggestion john \? 's individual make choice whether honour part money personally position would exactly thing , john obviously put lot time effort xv n't receive money interesting look change \( \) mind john author file \( early incarnation xv \) reads \( part \) follows whatever want program , though would nice name remained somewhere , may freely modified , distributed , used fill disk space readme file xv 1 00 \( \? \) reads \( part \) follows note like program decide use , please send short email message effect sure mention full name organization sponsors ask us 'what , would handy able come nice long list organizations using code developed grasp lab points , copyright notices appeared copyright 1989 , 1990 university pennsylvania permission use , copy , distribute non commercial purposes , hereby granted without fee , providing copyright notice appear copies copyright notice permission notice appear supporting documentation software may modified purposes , modified versions may distributed software provided without express implied warranty readme file xv 2 00 reads \( part \) follows also , find xv nifty , useful , generally , value , donation \( tax deductable \) would greatly appreciated 10 \( u \) probably fine amount donate folks donate 25 receive nice , bound copy xv manual printed 600 dpi laser printer 'll look lovely mounted looks suggestion \( see julian 's comment \) copyright notices appeared copyright 1989 , 1990 , 1991 , 1992 john bradley university pennsylvania readme xv 3 00 reads \( part \) follows xv shareware personal use may use xv amusement , find nifty , useful , generally cool , value , non deductable donation would greatly appreciated 25 suggested donation , though , course , larger donations quite welcome folks donate 25 receive printed , bound copy xv manual extra charge want one , ask sure specify version xv using ! commercial , government , institutional users must register copies xv , exceedingly reasonable price 25 per workstation x terminal site licenses available wish run xv large number machines contact author details second paragraph says universities must register pay \( potentially \) large sum money copyright notices read copyright 1989 , 1990 , 1991 , 1992 , 1993 john bradley developed upenn 's time equipment \? , grasp lab mentioned , say \? richard bingle bingle cs purdue edu dept computer sciences backbone ! purdue ! bingle purdue university \( 317 \) 494 west lafayette ,
harvard edu \( evan smyth \) subject mask left button \? article hsdndev reply harvard edu distribution world organization harvard university , cambridge , lines 21 nntp posting host harvard edu one way mask left button check contents xevent send event handling function \( case , show mouse position function xevent arrive function xevent p event , value p event button button pressed , switch value order distinguish case clear p event xevent button int way , mentioned anyone help would grateful figure distinguish motions button pressed motion occurring essence would like seperate event handler motion button unfortunately , xevent sent seem contain value pressed button ideas , eps
cac washington edu \( matthew \) subject non roman font availability article shelley distribution world organization u w information systems lines 16 nntp posting host elvis cac washington edu anybody tell anything availibility non roman fonts x windows \? especially han fonts also , conversion tools getting pc macintosh fonts format suitable x \? would assume difficult bitmap fonts faq 's group comp fonts helpful questions matthew u washington information systems cac washington edu 15th ave ne 3rd floor \( 206 \) 543 seattle , wa
lindholm ucs ubc ca \( george lindholm \) subject xv 3 00 escaped ! organization university computing services , ubc , canada lines 175 distribution world nntp posting host swiss ucs ubc ca article skeena ucs ubc ca , lindholm ucs ubc ca \( george lindholm \) writes article 123645 netnews upenn edu bradley grip cis upenn edu \( john bradley \) writes , another false alarm , 'll certainly done next week message , real thing repeat , drill ! batten hatches , hide women , lock cows , xv 3 00 finally escaped cleaning cage morning overpowered , broke office door , fled lab last seen heading general direction export lcs mit edu nearly 30k per second found , answers name 'contrib xv 3 00 tar z' blast i'm vacation capital u waco , texas first patch \) following fixes problems imakefile files makes possible compile xv 3 00 solaris without use ucb stuff oops , n't get signal processing right \( thats get work ascii terminal \) fixed patch 1 1 1993 04 28 06 05 03 imakefile 1993 04 28 08 20 35 209 , 215 xcmap programs xv bggen xcmap ! defined \( havejpeg \) defined \( \) ifdef havejpeg 209 , 218 xcmap programs xv bggen xcmap ! ! echo ! echo remember 'make first \? ! echo defined \( havejpeg \) defined \( \) ifdef havejpeg 222 , 238 subdirs tiff endif define passcdebugflags \( \( subdirs \) \) \( \( \) \) endif echo echo remember 'make first \? echo echo building xv echo 225 , 236 subdirs tiff endif define passcdebugflags define \( \( subdirs \) \) endif echo building xv echo 259 , 267 srcs \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) dependtarget \( \) \( \( programs \) \) normalprogramtarget \( xv , \( \) , \( deplibs \) , \( local libraries \) , \) normalprogramtarget \( bggen , \( \) , \( deplibs \) , \( local libraries \) , \) 257 , 269 srcs \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \( programs \) \) dependtarget \( \) ifdef \( \( subdirs \) \) endif normalprogramtarget \( xv , \( \) , \( deplibs \) , \( local libraries \) , \) normalprogramtarget \( bggen , \( \) , \( deplibs \) , \( local libraries \) , \) 1 1 1993 04 28 06 09 50 xcmap c 1993 04 28 07 09 03 9 , 15 9 , 19 include files include stdio h defined \( sun \) defined \( sysv \) include string h else include strings h endif include ctype h include x11 h 1 1 1993 04 28 08 33 13 xv h 1993 04 28 17 47 38 284 , 292 284 , 298 signal macros defined \( sun \) defined \( sysv \) define hold sig \( sigalrm \) define release sig \( sigalrm \) define pause sig sigpause \( sigalrm \) else define hold sig sigblock \( \( sigalrm \) \) define release sig sigblock \( 0 \) define pause sig sigpause \( 0 \) endif default folks 318 , 323 324 , 333 define random rand define srandom srand endif defined \( sun \) defined \( sysv \) define random \( \) rand \( \) define srandom \( x \) srand \( x \) endif 1 1 1993 04 28 06 17 41 tiff imakefile 1993 04 28 08 53 34 49 , 59 49 , 69 tif compress imakefile g3states h mkg3states c t4 h rm g3states h cc traditional mkg3states cflags mkg3states c mkg3states g3states h rm g3states h else g3states h mkg3states c t4 h rm g3states h cc mkg3states cflags mkg3states c mkg3states g3states h rm g3states h endif depend g3states h clean rm mkg3states g3states h dependtarget \( \)
rick miller rick ee uwm edu subject x face \? organization lines 17 distribution world nntp posting host 129 89 2 33 summary go ahead swamp ! i'm familiar format x face , seeing headers , 've got see \( maybe make one \) ! 've got dpg view linux box \( displays uncompressed x faces \) 've managed compile un i'm looking , ca n't seem find x face 's anyones news headers ! \( could , would , please send x face header \? know 'll probably get little swamped , handle hope rick miller rick ee uwm edu ricxjo discus mil wi us ricxjo muelisto send postcard , get one back ! enposxtigu bildkarton kaj vi ricevos alion ! rick miller 16203 woods muskego , wis 53150 usa
ips honeywell com \( bruce kilgore \) subject x server documentation organization honeywell industrial automation , phoenix , az distribution comp windows x lines 47 get documentation x server internals \? btw , i'm also interested documentation tiga hints welcome thanks , rainer rainer hochreiter telephone 43 \( 1 \) 89100 3961 elin energieanwendung gesmbh telefax 43 \( 1 \) 89100 3387 penzingerstr 76 1141 wien , austria europe e mail rainer elin co book know x window system server x version 11 , release 5 elias israel erik fortune digital press copyright 1992 order number ey dp dp isbn 1 3 ph isbn 0 13 1 , please post email names thus spake master programmer three days without programming , life becomes meaningless geoffrey james tao programming disclaimer opinions mine ! william bruce kilgore email ips honeywell com phone \( 602 \) 436 \( 602 \) 436 smail n black canyon hwy , phoenix az
neal fuentez com \( neal \) subject getting motif 1 2 organization internet lines 9 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu motif lobo gsfc nasa gov cc xpert expo lcs mit edu hello ! ! ! title says need list bugs motif 1 2 thanks , neal
swalker bbn com \( susan walker \) subject xmtextfield lang bug \( \? \? \? \) organization bolt beranek newman \( bbn \) lines 42 distribution world nntp posting host bbn com found situation think bug x motif , i'm hoping really mistake part anyone know anything problem using xmtextfield , setting xmnvalue hardcoded text string \( ascii kanji \) either via xtsetvalues problem xmtextfield displayed , text getting truncated , depending setting environment variables lang \( specifically lc \) set japanese , text gets truncated set english , everything works fine taking default \( please note text done actual application , sample code make things easier \) running motif 1 2 , x11r5 via 01 test program set handle 16 bit kanji characters remembered \( \) prior font resources set japanese fonts n't know matters , dialog box initially created uil problem happen xmtext unfortunately substituting application acceptable alternative \( way much code modified beta ! \) small test program illustrates problem anyone wants best guess either x code motif properly allocating memory japanese , since n't source look guess please let know sounds familiar , suggestion , want sample program thanks ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! susan swalker bbn com 617 873
trantor eng sun com \( stuart marks \) subject xt intrinsics slow popups organization sun microsystems , inc lines 37 distribution world reply eng sun com nntp posting host trantor article 1993apr20 alex com , bryan alex com \( bryan \) writes shell waiting window manager respond positioning request window manager responding thinks window already right place exactly two components get sulk unclear information greatly received problem caused bad interaction way olwm windows , x protocol , bug xt intrinsics intrinsics bug ignores \( x , \) position given events olwm structured way , window popped , last event client receives event point , notion shell 's location date done using \( x , \) position , intrinsics thinks needs move shell , issues request move however , \( mis \) feature x protocol request effect generate event intrinsics thus waits event never arrive , times expired \( actually , things somewhat complex request redirected window manager , net result \) solution intrinsics note \( x , \) positioning information events implemented available x11r5 public fix 20 interested details stuart w marks stuart marks eng sun com window systems technology 2550 garcia ave 21 228 sunsoft , inc mountain view , ca 94043
dcr mail ast cam ac uk \( derek c richardson \) subject xview 3 0 window positioning problems nntp posting host ioas09 ast cam ac uk reply dcr mail ast cam ac uk organization institute astronomy , cambridge lines 28 n't seem able get window positions reliably xview xv get \( \) function x \( int \) xv get \( frame , xv x \) \( int \) xv get \( frame , xv \) example , set xv x xv 50 , 50 frame comes correct position , top left corner \( size handle \) 50 , 50 xv get \( \) returns 50 , 50 well later xv get \( \) returns 5 , 25 without xv set \( frame , xv \? \) frame fitted around canvas , turns \( measuring screen \) 5 , 25 position first pixel canvas relative frame 's origin gives \? help appreciated ! derek p related subject , way window manager thickness borders puts around frames , etc \? derek c richardson tel \( 0223 \) 337548 x 37501 institute astronomy fax \( 0223 \) 337523 cambridge , u k cb3 0ha e mail dcr mail ast cam ac uk
rpicas porto inescn pt \( rui picas \) subject subscrive organization internet lines 3 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert export lcs mit edu please subscrive rpicas porto inescn pt
pjs euclid jpl nasa gov \( peter j scott \) subject xv 3 00 escaped ! reply pjs euclid jpl nasa gov organization jet propulsion laboratory , nasa caltech lines 10 nntp posting host euclid jpl nasa gov 've found add 8 option displaying jpegs new version reason , n't , goes 24 bit mode resulting image displayed 216 colors \( array \) instead 256 looks since i'm ubiquitous 8 bit pseudo color display would thought could tell news peter scott , nasa jpl caltech brain news questions \? \( pjs euclid jpl nasa gov \)
colinm max carleton ca \( colin mcfadyen \) subject x11r5 support 386i gx \? \? organization carleton university lines 9 x11r5 support graphics accelerator board sun 386i \? \? \? \? thanks advance colin
vela acs oakland edu \( \) subject repost cose gui organization oakland university , rochester mi lines 39 distribution world nntp posting host vela acs oakland edu repost like find also message part 2 text cose announcement specifies motif become common gui mean exactly \? mean cose complient apps motif look feel \? mean cose complient apps use motif toolkit api \? mean \? possible motif api complient toolkit openlook look feel \? olit xview oi interviews api toolkit motif l f \? \( know oi already , considered cose complient \? \) one standard toolkit api l f supported \? using tooltalk fit motif \? attempt start discussion order pull much knowledge questions net feel free e mail followup gil days n't pay devil imp hellnet org go sleep morning devil 10a com
e technik uni erlangen de \( martin \) subject problem german keyboard sparc10 organization , university erlangen , germany nntp posting host e technik uni erlangen de lines 9 keywords keyboard special characters yesterday changed us keyboard sparc10 german keyboard cannot get alt graph characters \( \) exit x get characters , x anybody give hints , check correct installation keyboard martin
rna nl subject second best \? organization g r lines 25 answers please e mail , since groups header carried hi ! personally , like nextstep much even realise much burden ordinary x windows programming also like objective c better like c , sometimes restrictions instance sometimes ms windows x i'm looking pointers tools environments come close nextstep , etc also , environs support rapid prototyping \( like ib \) without producing spaghetti code soon want real work maybe windows version kit ui objects \? interviews \( exactly , n't know kind lost touch world started nextstep \) thanks , nerd tel \( 31 \) 35 n't know going , road take talmud \( \? \) , rephrased lewis carroll , alice
smeets speedy cci de \( vincent smeets \) subject sun 3 80 sunos 4 0 3 x terminal organization competence center informatik gmbh , , germany lines 23 moment , using sun 3 80 \( cgfour \) sunos 4 0 3 openwindows 2 0 configuration slow ca n't run programs example , start mailtool ow3 display display , ca n't open compose window want install x11r5 x11r4 server sun use xdm \( yes , xdm already running x terminals \) log start x programs ready go x11 server configuration \( read something xsun \) , must compile x11 stuff \? help welcome v smeets vincent smeets competence center informatik gmbh smeets cci de software engineering ada whois , germany
deford com \( brian deford \) subject preventing user hitting ctrl alt exit x organization open networks , inc , reston , va lines 49 hello , admin rs 6000 running aix 3 2 , x11r5 , motif , want prevent user hitting alt exit x 've tried invoking x t' , n't work xinit call xinitrc , call x man page xinit help fact , tells xinit script really binary file far , way 've able accomplish feat add call x usr x11 defaults would rather way anyone ideas \? brian deford internet deford com open networks , inc usenet uunet ! ! deford commerce park dr 205 tel 703 648 0013 reston , va fax 703 648 want prevent
muller inria fr \( christophe muller \) subject xv 3 00 escaped ! organization simulog , france lines 16 interesting look change \( \) mind john interested indeed ! kind changes gnu copyleft protecting us anyway , simulog , abandon xv using mostly slide shows loop feature display \( display wonderful imagemagick package ! \) , think implement \( even shell script job \) forget xv cheers , christophe muller simulog fr police \? ma'am , 're musicians
nswc navy mil \( \) subject colormap problem organization lines 24 saving image one machine image another machine \( hp 9000 model 750s \) image created using xgetimage displayed xputimage image correctly except colors wrong server machine using different colormap tried saving colormap \( pixel rgb values \) , performed table lookup new colormap n't work rgb n't exist new colormap way force server load colors set pixel values , simpler way solve problem \? tried using could n't get work either help would appreciated naval surface warfare center dahlgren division dahlgren , va \( 703 \) 663 nswc navy mil
ctp com \( atul \) subject dce rpc , threads , x motif clients organization cambridge technology partners lines 9 nntp posting host luna ctp com anyone used dce threads x client \? possible one thread listening incoming another processes x events \? set something like \? atul \( ctp com \)
sinclair dcs glasgow ac uk \( duncan sinclair \) subject glasgow rx remote execution x programs , 01 summary nice program remote xterms keywords perl x remote execution organization glasgow university computing science dept lines 976 posted weeks back , got back error message dev null permission denied yep , dev null mode 600 \( ! ! \) renewed interest setting display variable , etc thought would post contribution perl script solution trys intelligent 's able type rx host domain etc , get xterm running host domain etc , difficult stuff taken care theory , program everything ever wanted wanted run remote command background n't even need x program try rx big machine make instance , make remote big machine details full list features read readme file , 20 lines comments welcome duncan ! bin sh shell archive remove anything line , unpack saving file typing sh file overwrite existing files , type sh file c also feed standard input via , typing sh file , e g archive complete , see following message end end archive 1 \( 1 \) contents readme imakefile manifest makefile rx man rx pl wrapped sinclair dcs gla ac uk thu apr 8 18 47 48 1993 path bin usr bin usr ucb export path test f 'readme' 1 ! c echo shar clobber existing file 'readme' else echo shar extracting 'readme' \( characters \) sed x 'readme' 'end file' x x glasgow rx remote execution x programs version 3 1 7 x xcopyright 1992 duncan sinclair sinclair dcs gla ac uk x install , 's imakefile make even trivial x xthe perl script needs installed , xedit rx pl file , read comments 've done xmkmf , make install install man x x x \) right thing site remote execution including x setting display include domain names , passing x magic cookies , xhost stuff x x \) allow different remote user name \( rx l user host \) x x \) smart quoting arguments makes passing wild cards easy x x \) custom command execution link get remote x emacs command x x \) automatic xterm options names xterm according hostname , x turns login shell x x \) default command xterm x x \) x ish env variables remote session user may x extend list variables pass x x \) special handling bourne shell users x x \) tries remote execution directory local x , pwd , intelligent manner x x \) logs errors file x x \) overall intelligence \( tm \) makes reasoned decisions x trying , tries right thing x x \) written perl , portability x xfor info , read man page source x end file test ne `wc c echo shar 'readme' unpacked wrong size ! fi end 'readme' fi test f 'imakefile' 1 ! c echo shar clobber existing file 'imakefile' else echo shar extracting 'imakefile' \( 370 characters \) sed x 'imakefile' 'end file' x glasgow rx imakefile x x programs rx x xall \( programs \) x xinstall safe x \( rx pl , rx , \( bindir \) \) \( rx , \( mandir \) \) x xinstall x \( rm \) \( bindir \) rxterm x \( ln \) \( bindir \) rx \( bindir \) rxterm x x grep 0' rx pl false x safe x p x perl pi e sinclair dcs gla ac uk sinclair dcs gla ac uk part x end file test 370 ne `wc c echo shar 'imakefile' unpacked wrong size ! fi end 'imakefile' fi test f 'manifest' 1 ! c echo shar clobber existing file 'manifest' else echo shar extracting 'manifest' \( 313 characters \) sed x 'manifest' 'end file' x file name archive description x x readme 1 read first x imakefile 1 x manifest 1 shipping list x makefile 1 x rx man 1 x rx pl 1 end file test 313 ne `wc c echo shar 'manifest' unpacked wrong size ! fi end 'manifest' fi test f 'makefile' 1 ! c echo shar clobber existing file 'makefile' else echo shar extracting 'makefile' \( characters \) sed x 'makefile' 'end file' x makefile generated imake edit ! x xconsortium imake c , v 1 65 91 07 25 17 50 17 rws exp x x cpp used machine replaces multiple tabs x spaces macro expansion single space imake tries compensate x , always successful x x x x makefile generated imake tmpl tmp iif x xconsortium imake tmpl , v 1 139 91 09 16 08 52 48 rws exp x x platform specific parameters may set appropriate vendor cf x configuration files site specific parameters set file x site def full rebuilds recommended parameters changed x x c preprocessor define unique symbols , need x set rebuilding imake \( usually x make world first time \) x x x x site specific configuration parameters need come x platform specific parameters edit site def change x x site xconsortium site def , v 1 2 91 07 30 20 26 44 rws exp x x x platform specific configuration parameters edit sun cf change x x platform xconsortium sun cf , v 1 72 1 1 92 03 18 13 13 37 rws exp x x operating system sunos 4 1 3 x x xconsortium rules , v 1 7 91 12 20 11 19 47 rws exp x x x site specific configuration parameters go x platform specific parameters edit site def change x x site xconsortium site def , v 1 2 91 07 30 20 26 44 rws exp x x shell bin sh x x top x current dir x x ar ar cq x x cc gcc fpcc struct return x x x compress compress x cpp lib cpp \( std cpp defines \) x gcc fpcc struct return e \( std cpp defines \) x install install x ld ld x lint lint x c x x ln ln x make make x mv mv x cp cp x x ranlib ranlib x x x rm rm f x troff psroff x ms x tbl tbl x eqn eqn x std includes x std cpp defines x std defines x extra load flags x extra libraries x tags x x x x x proto defines x x x x x 4755 x x 0444 x 0444 x 0444 x g x x projectroot usr x11 x x top includes \( \) x x o2 x ccoptions x x \( includes \) \( extra includes \) \( top includes \) \( std includes \) x alldefines \( \) \( std defines \) \( extra defines \) \( proto defines \) \( defines \) x cflags \( \) \( ccoptions \) \( alldefines \) x \( \) \( alldefines \) x x \( sys libraries \) \( extra libraries \) x x \( \) \( ccoptions \) \( local \) l \( usrlibdir \) x x x r x x x sun cf x rm cmd \( rm \) ln core , emacs tags tags make log x x imake defines x x irulesrc \( \) x imake cmd \( imake \) \( irulesrc \) \( imake defines \) x x \( irulesrc \) imake tmpl \( irulesrc \) imake rules x \( irulesrc \) project tmpl \( irulesrc \) site def x \( irulesrc \) \( \) \( extra \) x x x x window system build parameters x xconsortium project tmpl , v 1 138 1 1 92 11 11 09 49 19 rws exp x x x x window system make variables need coordinated rules x x x usrlibdir usr x11 lib x bindir usr x11 local bin x usr x11 include x \( top \) x \( \) x11 x x \( \) x11 x usr adm x libdir \( usrlibdir \) x11 x \( libdir \) config x lintlibdir \( usrlibdir \) lint x x \( libdir \) fonts x \( libdir \) xinit x \( libdir \) xdm x \( libdir \) twm x manpath usr x11 man x \( manpath \) man x n x 3 x mandir \( \) \( \) x \( \) \( \) x \( libdir \) nls x \( libdir \) pex x \( libdir \) app defaults x x x \( \) x x imake imake x depend makedepend x rgb rgb x x bdftopcf x x mkfontdir mkfontdir x mkdirhier bin sh \( bindir \) mkdirhier x x \( top \) config x \( top \) doc util x \( top \) clients x \( top \) demos x libsrc \( top \) lib x fontsrc \( top \) fonts x \( top \) x11 x \( top \) server x \( top \) util x \( \) scripts x \( top \) examples x \( top \) contrib x \( top \) doc x \( top \) rgb x \( \) makedepend x \( \) x \( libsrc \) x \( libsrc \) x x xmusrc \( libsrc \) xmu x \( libsrc \) xt x \( libsrc \) xaw x \( libsrc \) x \( libsrc \) xdmcp x \( fontsrc \) x \( fontsrc \) clients x \( fontsrc \) clients bdftopcf x \( fontsrc \) clients mkfontdir x \( fontsrc \) lib fs x \( fontsrc \) server x \( top \) extensions x \( \) lib x \( \) lib pexlib x \( \) lib pex x x xconsortium tmpl , v 1 14 1 2 92 11 11 09 55 02 rws exp x assert pure text x x x lxext x x \( \) x xlib \( \) lx11 x x \( usrlibdir \) libxmu sa \( \) x lxmu x xmulib lxmu x x x x x \( usrlibdir \) libxt sa \( \) x lxt x x \( usrlibdir \) libxaw sa \( \) x lxaw x x x x x x pexlib x x 4 10 x 4 10 x 5 0 x 4 10 x 4 10 x 4 10 x 4 10 x 1 0 x x \( usrlibdir \) x x \( usrlibdir \) x x x \( usrlibdir \) x x x \( usrlibdir \) libxbsd x x x \( lintlibdir \) llib lxext ln x \( lintlibdir \) llib lx11 ln x \( lintlibdir \) llib lxmu ln x \( lintlibdir \) llib lxt ln x \( lintlibdir \) llib lxaw ln x \( lintlibdir \) llib ln x \( lintlibdir \) llib ln x \( lintlibdir \) llib ln x x deplibs \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) x x \( deplibs \) x \( deplibs \) x \( deplibs \) x x x imake rules building libraries , programs , scripts , data files x rules xconsortium imake rules , v 1 123 91 09 16 20 12 16 rws exp x x x start imakefile x x glasgow rx imakefile x x programs rx x xall \( programs \) x xinstall safe x xinstall rx pl x \( destdir \) \( bindir \) set x x else \( set x \( mkdirhier \) \( destdir \) \( bindir \) \) fi x \( install \) c \( \) rx pl \( destdir \) \( bindir \) rx x xinstall man rx man x \( destdir \) \( mandir \) set x x else \( set x \( mkdirhier \) \( destdir \) \( mandir \) \) fi x \( install \) c \( \) rx man \( destdir \) \( mandir \) rx \( \) x xinstall x \( rm \) \( bindir \) rxterm x \( ln \) \( bindir \) rx \( bindir \) rxterm x x grep 0' rx pl false x safe x p x perl pi e sinclair dcs gla ac uk sinclair dcs gla ac uk part x x x common rules makefiles edit x x x \( rm cmd \) x x f makefile set x x \( rm \) makefile \( mv \) makefile makefile x else exit 0 fi x \( imake cmd \) \( top \) \( current dir \) x x \( tags \) w ch x \( tags \) xw ch tags x x load \( alldefines \) \( srcs \) x x load \( alldefines \) \( \) x x x empty rules directories subdirs edit x xinstall x echo install \( current dir \) done x xinstall man x echo install man \( current dir \) done x x x x x generated makedepend x end file test ne `wc c echo shar 'makefile' unpacked wrong size ! fi end 'makefile' fi test f 'rx man' 1 ! c echo shar clobber existing file 'rx man' else echo shar extracting 'rx man' \( 3551 characters \) sed x 'rx man' 'end file' x th rx 1 4 march 1993 x version 11 x sh name , rxterm , r remote command , xterm , anything execution x sh synopsis x b rx x x b l x username x x host x x command x x br x b rxterm x x b l x username x x host x x ir args x x sh description xthe x b rx connect specified x host xand executes specified x command xin background , returning immediately allow execution x programs , copies number environmental variables xthe remote session omit x ir command , rx start xterm remote host x b rxterm starts remote xterm host , also passes x args xto remote xterm arguments x pp quoted interpreted local , quoted interpreted remote x pp xif name file x b rx executed anything , '' x b rx name , stripped leading command xto run remote host , using x command arguments remote command x pp xif x b rx using x b xauth x authorisation , calling site host , xto different username , attempt copy authorization remote account otherwise try use x b xhost \( 1 \) xto grant access remote host x sh options x tp x bi l username x username xas remote username instead local username absence option , remote username local username x x sh environment xif set , values path , display , , xapplresdir , , xuserfilesearchpath , openwinhome , ld library path , xand xauthority exported remote program , unless xremote username different , remote host site , display exported , cases variables named x pp xthe display variable appropriate , contain qualified xa hostname needed x sh diagnostics x tp x ib command n't recognise name x b rx decode name called case xit prints warning message , continues , normal x tp x b rx usage rx l username hostname args means could decode arguments given x sh author sinclair sinclair dcs glasgow ac uk , july 1992 x br based program name x b gwm distinguish rx programs similar names , refer program x b glasgow x br rx x sh see also xx \( 1 \) , rsh \( 1 \) , xterm \( 1 \) , xauth \( 1 \) , xhost \( 1 \) , gwm \( 1 \) x sh bugs x b rx number assumptions relationship user , remote one , depending whether remote xhost , whether alternative username used xor x pp xin particular , either locally used shell , remotely shell standard bourne shell , x b sh \( 1 \) strange things likely happen especially xit 's one x pp quoting get messed x pp xit 's easy fool x b rx xto make believe something true , fail x pp x b rx x b xhost xto grant access , x b xhost may fail silently x pp xif x b rx send large command remote machine , fail parse error csh happens , probably reduce size exported environment end file test 3551 ne `wc c 'rx echo shar 'rx man' unpacked wrong size ! fi end 'rx man' fi test f 'rx pl' 1 ! c echo shar clobber existing file 'rx pl' else echo shar extracting 'rx pl' \( characters \) sed x 'rx pl' 'end file' x ! usr local bin perl x config change line point copy perl x x glasgow rx version 3 1 7 x x copyright 1992 duncan sinclair sinclair dcs gla ac uk x x last modified early april 1993 x x distribution limited , per usual mit copyright x x remote execution x programs based script old version gwm x x install , put rx bin make rxterm link x configuration necessary , see config comments x x less less like original x x major hacked work \( \) set , also partly x written work sh , rather ksh x x maybe 'll turn first script ! x x looks like turned perl script point big improvement x x code tries intelligent way works means x tons implicit assumptions environment run x assumptions valid machines use , x environment time , try make assumptions possible x remote machine 's list tricky ones x \) remote machine csh \( linux \? \) x \) bin \( k \) \? sh remote shell bin \( k \) \? sh \( make \) x \) remote shell sh , path compatible \( use csh , etc \) x \) pass cookie remote machine need , x know cookie \( eat \? \) x \) must others x x using csh run remote commands \? simply n't x interact badly rsh , hang waiting file descriptor x closed 'd rather use , bash , even perl , x universal csh x x stat pl x x called \? x x argv0 0 x argv0 x x config x change variables domain name , pattern x match variations domain name must include x leading dots ! ! ! hostname includes domain , see x code , marked xxx x x dom dcs gla ac uk x dcs \( gla \( \) \? \( ac uk \) \? \) \? x x config x change value bindir , set variable x think users smarter x x usr x11 bin x x config x make name remote shell command x x rsh rsh x x end config x x variables 'll doubt use sometime x x usage argv0 usage argv0 l username hostname args n x \( \( \) \) 8 bin sh x home env home \( \( \) \) 7 x xauth env xauthority home xauthority x rx log x stuff \( \) x debug 0 x x anything else , close stdin might stop rx hanging x due rsh weirdness x \( stdin \) x x l flag x xif \( argv 0 eq l \) x shift x user argv 0 die usage x luser \( l , user \) x shift x x x pick host , host x x mach argv 0 die usage x x things think remote machine x x mach x offsite mach x x \? seems ca n't trust dumb user set hostname right ! x x hostname env hostname `hostname` current host x hostname `hostname` current host x hostname n x x include domain , comment next line x xif \( offsite \) hostname hostname dom xxx x x know , , different \? x x diff hostname ne mach x x display going \? x ! ! danger ! ! heavy regular expressions follow x needs written modular extended x support host unix , required x x display env display 0 0 x display x display \( unix \) \? \( \( \) \? \) hostname 2 \( diff \) x display \( \) \( \( \) \? \) 1 dom 2 \( offsite \) x env display display x x comes hard bit sh quote args x also quote quotes cope csh , x quotes quoted thus ' ' '' x arg , get x \( argv \) x ' ' ' ' g x \( \) ' 1 ' x x x \? x x \( argv0 eq rx \) last prog x \( argv0 eq rxterm \) x unshift \( argv , ls \) \( diff \) x unshift \( argv , xterm , ls , n , mach \) x last prog x x \( argv0 r \( \) \) unshift \( argv , 1 \) last prog x warn argv0 n't recognise name x x x nothing else , become rxterm x xif \( argv 0 \) x unshift \( argv , ls \) \( diff \) x unshift \( argv , xterm , ls , n , mach \) x x x special considerations side x xif \( offsite user \) x x want pass cookie x x \( e xauth \) x x going unsecure , cookie appear number x command line args least 'll work x need enhanced ever fix code x set display 0 0 , return server x x cookie path xauth list x chop \( cookie \) x cooks split \( ' ' , cookie \) x shift \( cooks \) x unshift \( stuff , xauth , add , display , cooks , \) \( cooks 2 \) x else x x yuk crock hate x x system \( xhost mach dev null 2 dev null \) \( diff \) x x x really want pass value display x x vars \( display , split \( ' ' , env \) \) x else x x variables wish export x x vars \( x display , x , x xfilesearchpath , x xuserfilesearchpath , x xapplresdir , x openwinhome , x ld library path , x manpath , , bourne shell users x xauthority , x split \( ' ' , env \) , x \) x x braindead bourne shell , needs given path x would rather pass current path , might work x destination machine 'd rather set user 's x remote shell rsh x fortunately , x programs arch independant place , x n't cos problem , locally x check , might running another shell , x login shell know , sounds weird , 's x common round x 've also included ksh brain damage , cos ca n't see easy way x pass throught env env without late \( x one person ksh login shell anyway \) x oh , yeah assuming 's bourne shell , 's x bourne shell much important isnt x bourne shell , better bourne shell x x \( \( k \) \? sh \) push \( vars , path \) x x x validate pwd routine x validate pwd x local \( , \) x local \( pwd \) 0 x x unless \( defined \( pwd \) \) return undef x unless \( stat \( \) \) return undef x unless \( stat \( pwd \) \) return undef x \( \( st dev ! st dev \) x \( st ! st \) \) return undef x pwd x x x try find nice , valid , pwd x x \( pwd env pwd \) x foopwd pwd x foopwd \( tmp export \) \? \( \) 2 x pwd validate pwd \( foopwd \) validate pwd \( pwd \) x x unless \( pwd \) x chop \( pwd \) x foopwd pwd x foopwd \( tmp export \) \? \( \) 2 x pwd validate pwd \( foopwd \) validate pwd \( pwd \) home x x x pwd \( \) ' 1 ' x x try find somewhere nice live side x \( offsite \) x unshift \( stuff , test , , pwd , , cd , pwd , \) x x x start building full command x var \( vars \) x \( val env var \) x unshift \( stuff , setenv , var , ' val ' , \) x x x commands side x \( stuff , set , , \) using csh x x build remote command x x remote \( \( 077 \( \( join \( , stuff , argv \) \) dev null \) \) \) x remote g x remote remote x x build arg list exec x x comm \( rsh , luser , mach , csh , fc , remote \) x x ! x xif \( debug \) x print comm n x else x exec comm x x x rsh n't return indication went x side , 's ok , cos aint going x wait around see happened x 0 x x end end file test ne `wc c 'rx echo shar 'rx pl' unpacked wrong size ! fi chmod x 'rx pl' end 'rx pl' fi echo shar end archive 1 \( 1 \) cp dev null missing 1 test ! f ark missing missing fi done test missing echo archive rm f ark 1 9 else echo still need unpack following archives echo missing fi end shell archive exit 0 duncan sinclair sinclair dcs gla ac uk sinclair uk ac gla dcs would real unix operating system please stand
rpicas porto inescn pt \( rui picas \) subject subscribe organization internet lines 3 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert export lcs mit edu please subscribe e mail rpicas porto inescn pt
barmar think com \( barry margolin \) subject xv 3 00 escaped ! organization thinking machines corporation , cambridge , usa lines 25 nntp posting host think com article 1993apr29 102341 13820 comp lancs ac uk julian comp lancs ac uk \( julian g self \) writes n't shareware fee suggestion john \? 's request personal users 's requirement commercial , government , institutional users someone else asked whether authors jpeg tiff software given permission incorporate code commercial product found following jpeg readme specifically permit encourage use software basis commercial products , provided warranty liability claims assumed product vendor following tiff copyright permission use , copy , modify , distribute , sell software documentation purpose hereby granted without fee , looks like 's ok account barry margolin system manager , thinking machines corp barmar think com uunet , harvard ! think ! barmar
smedley ca \( trevor j smedley \) subject buying x terminals organization technical university nova scotia lines 18 planning buying 15 20 x terminals article jim morton regarding prices , etc , looking information help decide buy terminals connected dec 3000 400 axp ram , running osf 1 found far , would best run much possible terminal \( x11 , window manager , xterm , etc \) , order need n mb ram xterminal \( n ranges 4 10 , depending talk \) looking \? sort questions asking \? thanks trevor j smedley smedley ca school computer science technical university nova scotia
kartik hls com \( kartik \) subject multiple \( simultaneous \) server connections organization internet lines 13 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu hi , requirement dynamically closing opening different display servers within x application manner time one display associated client proper cleanup done transition anticipate problems kartik kartik hls com
tommc hpcvusj cv hp com \( tom mcfarland \) subject xmtextfield lang bug \( \? \? \? \) nntp posting host hpcvusj cv hp com reply tommc cv hp com organization hewlett packard corvallis lines 40 article news bbn com , swalker bbn com \( susan walker \) writes found situation think bug x motif , i'm hoping really mistake part anyone know anything problem using xmtextfield , setting xmnvalue hardcoded text string \( ascii kanji \) either via xtsetvalues problem xmtextfield displayed , text getting truncated , depending setting environment variables lang \( specifically lc \) set japanese , text gets truncated set english , everything works fine taking default \( please note text done actual application , sample code make things easier \) running motif 1 2 , x11r5 via 01 test program set handle 16 bit kanji characters remembered \( \) prior font resources set japanese fonts n't know matters , dialog box initially created uil problem happen xmtext unfortunately substituting application acceptable alternative \( way much code modified beta ! \) small test program illustrates problem anyone wants best guess either x code motif properly allocating memory japanese , since n't source look guess problem improperly walking string used character count instead byte count oops problem fixed patch included latest periodic patch hp support services tom mcfarland tommc cv hp com
canuck ce berkeley edu \( c \) subject xv 3 00 escaped ! organization dept civil engineering , university california , berkeley lines 41 1993apr29 102341 13820 comp lancs ac uk denali cs purdue edu nntp posting host canuck ce berkeley edu reply bingle cs purdue edu 's message 29 apr 1993 11 32 15 0500 copyright notices seem making restrictions know reconcile copyright notice copyright 1989 , 1990 , 1991 , 1992 , 1993 john bradley permission use , copy , distribute xv entirety , non commercial purposes , hereby granted without fee , provided license information copyright notice appear copies xv shareware personal use may use xv amusement , find nifty , useful , generally cool , value , non deductable donation would greatly appreciated 25 suggested donation , though , course , larger donations quite welcome folks donate 25 receive real nice bound copy xv manual extra charge commercial , government , institutional users must register copies xv , exceedingly reasonable price 25 per workstation x terminal site licenses available wish run xv large number machines contact author details strikes first part gives right use , without fee , program noncommercial purposes info appears copies seems cover educational institutions despite rest notice says first part n't say subject conditions outlined chris christopher robin \( ce berkeley edu \) dept civil engineering opinions necessarily university california , berkeley shared employer
gentry bcstec ca boeing com \( tim gentry \) subject xio fatal io error 22 problem reply dcl ca boeing com organization boeing computer services lines 29 posted friend without posting access \( e mail access \) help , anyone ! x client terminated following message xio fatal io error 22 \( invalid argument \) x server xxxxx 0 0 requests \( known processed \) 78 events remaining known occur displaying xsun \( x11r4 \) server occurs higher frequency client displays \( x11r4 \) server running 10 3 5 apollo anybody know may happening \? suggestions would greatly appreciated reply set 'll summarize net doug leary software development boeing computer services dcl ca boeing com tim gentry boeing computer services gentry bcstec ca boeing com posting way officially represents opinions boeing , boeing computer services possibly even poster , matter
probert ucsb edu \( dave probert \) subject image data format question organization university california , santa barbara lines 63 posting friend please respond vaughn hub ucsb edu i'm working application creating dither pattern rendering window applying stipple pattern gc following code segment almost works window width even multiple 8 even multiple pattern towards right another problem , whether even multiple 8 , series vertical lines spaced 8 pixels apart extern display dpy extern window xid extern gc gc extern int max x , max set resize handler dither \( pixels \) char pixels dither pattern data char bm bitmap data char bmp long , max x max bm \( char \) malloc \( \) bmp bm \( j 0 \) \( pixels dither bit \) bmp 2 j pixel else bmp \( 2 j \) pixel \( j 7 \) bmp j 0 stipple \( dpy , xid , bm , max x , max \) free \( bm \) \( dpy , xid \) \( dpy , gc , stipple \) \( dpy , gc , \) xfillrectangle \( dpy , xid , gc , 0 , 0 , max x , max \) \( dpy , gc , \) suspect answer pad data mike vaughn
adrian ora com \( adrian nye \) subject keyboard mapping window placement questions reply adrian ora com organization o'reilly associates , inc lines 18 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu use xt , o'reilly say ' automatically handled xt ' use xlib , ala xnextevent \( \) , get nothing stems problems users sun 4 5 keyboard numlock plus various alt meta etc modifier requirements 's says coverage modifiers chapter 8 volume four \( chap 7 older athena editions \) , 10 pages specify translations capture various combinations keys buttons xlib route uses xlookupstring lot coverage works volume one , chapter 9 read understand mappings work trying anything complicated adrian nye o'reilly associates
aurora \( \) subject xv 3 00 escaped ! organization la de karma lines 19 reply cad gatech edu nntp posting host cad gatech edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 julian g self \( julian comp lancs ac uk \) wrote n't shareware fee suggestion john \? 's individual make choice whether honour part money personally position would exactly thing , john obviously put lot time effort xv n't receive money pennies worth \( keep good work john \) yeah agree impressed kind effort gone lastest release people looking excuses gripe personally feel work worth much 25 seeing kind things people get paid
moose orb utc com \( bruce \) subject gui tools reply moose orb utc com organization sun microsystems , inc lines 23 making transition nextstep x windows trying find best gui tool needs looked several tools seem basically \( salesman beg differ \) realize differences n't amount time discover tools looked far uim x , x designer , tele use , tcl tk , interviews , suit far 've drawn following conclusions 1 \) builder interviews mature , bad docs 2 \) tele use expensive uses proprietary toolkit 3 \) uim x x designer seem , even though x designer interpreter \( 'll centerline need one \) 4 \) tcl tk little buggy 5 \) know little ics builder \( sales info \) 6 \) due corporate agreement x designer much comercial product 7 \) time i'm spending could bought \( well different money \) 8 \) live shortcomings make work 9 \) type tool seems great , noone seems talk net another news group \? 10 \) suit cost much comercial development i'm hoping someone strong opinion least one products thanks bruce aoa \( 617 \) 864 check mind door band time forgot moose aoa utc com aoa ! moose bbn com
bglenden colobus cv nrao edu \( brian glendenning \) subject xv 3 00 escaped ! organization national radio astronomy observatory lines 7 reply sherman lea csc ncsu edu 's message thu , 29 apr 1993 07 29 39 gmt alas , stop using brian brian glendenning national radio astronomy observatory bglenden nrao edu charlottesville va \( 804 \) 296
david pop \( david e smyth \) subject r5 table widget causing trouble xtquerygeometry nntp posting host pop organization jet propulsion laboratory \( nasa \) lines 102 got bug report fix exact problem fisher iscp bellcore com \( greg fisher \) serious problem identified incorporated problem occurs table widget 's invoked child work correctly table widgets parent complies xt protocols however , , case motif widgets , ignore , sizing incorrect order see problem , following events must happen 1 child table widget must request new size 2 table widget must query parent new size set 3 parent must ignore bit resize table widget part resize , called set tw table current cols tw table current rows zero 4 table continue setting new size , working assumption working proposed actual layout end , call save tw table cols tw table rows restore values tw table current cols tw table current rows however , already set zero 5 since table widget already resized , need second resize 6 next , another widget managed ancestor table resized results parent table requesting tables preferred size since tw table cols tw table rows zero , return 0x0 preferred size 7 parent likely grant request , resulting loss whole table display isolated problem proposed workaround seems precisely correct new implementation released next update 5 weeks table c void \( tw \) tw \( tw \) \( tw \) \( tw \) query , resize since made query , still need continue however , motif broken actually may already resized case , proposed layout already forgotten , quietly exit \( tw table resize status \) \( tw \) \( tw \) \( tw \) \( tw \) else resize already done proposed layout would forgotten process fix identical , except course names xp table c void \( tw \) tw \( tw \) \( tw \) \( tw \) query , resize since made query , still need continue however , manager widgets broken actually may already resized case , proposed layout already forgotten , quietly exit \( tw table resize status \) \( tw \) \( tw \) \( tw \) \( tw \) else resize already done proposed layout would forgotten process david smyth david jpl devvax jpl nasa gov senior software engineer , \( 818 \) 306 \( use v mail yet ! \) , x object guru office 525 jet propulsion lab , 525 3660 4800 oak grove drive , pasadena , ca 91109 sun windows thingy , 's called \? know , really awful x \? motif \? 's motif ! yuck !
cogsci ed ac uk \( richard \) subject overriding default wm behaviour organization human communication research center lines 18 reply rgasch nl oracle com 's message 27 apr 93 18 30 48 gmt create window place want set program position field wm normal hints property , map , assuming non brain dead window manager , user say whether want us program specified positions tvtwm command , i'm sure time message gets local news timewarp someone advised set user position bit wm normal hints 's evil 's disservice users god come night remove vital organs blunt spoon even contemplate cogsci ed ac uk
fwr8bv fin af mil subject xdm env vars organization internet lines 27 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu fin lcs mit edu hi , using xdm x11r5 ow3 xview3 sun3s sparcs running sunos 4 1 1 prior using xdm , used set path environment variables \( like manpath , helppath , arch , etc \) login file xdm , login file n't get executed therefore neither olwm root window applications know variables used displaymanager 0 resource usr lib x11 xdm xdm config succesfully pass path variable problems passing anything else ! ! ! tried home login usr lib x11 xdm xsession n't help also tried using displaymanager helppath manpath arch n't work either would appreciate help matter thanks advance , shash shash chatterjee email fwr8bv fin af mil ec software phone \( 817 \) 763 1495 lockheed fort worth company fax \( 817 \) 777 p box 748 , ft worth , tx
nosc mil \( han n nguyen \) subject action translation table implementation organization naval ocean systems center , san diego , ca distribution usa lines 51 hello , application requires us capture keypad presses windows number applications trying use action translation tables implement succeeded assigning translation table every individual widget windows single application xt calls make included would much convenient could assign translation table class widgets rather individual widget , also accomplish multiple applications someone could describe would greatly appreciated platform sun sparc w x11r4 motif 1 1 4 static , , right , right , middle , middle , left , left , , , bye , quit , static char key kp 8 \( \) n key kp 6 right \( \) n key kp 5 middle \( \) n key kp 4 left \( \) n key kp 2 \( \) n key kp 1 bye \( \) trans table , trans \( \) \( , xtnumber \( \) \) trans table \( \) widget xtcreatemanagedwidget \( msg , , form , wargs , n \) \( widget , trans table \)
qdeck com \( gary rich \) subject desqview x pc network traffic organization quarterdeck office systems , santa monica ca lines 119 article picasso cssc syd tansu com au gpatapis boyd tansu com au writes article qdeck com , support qdeck com \( technical support \) writes article picasso cssc syd tansu com au gpatapis boyd tansu com au writes sort traffic generated x calls \? curious find required bandwidth link must one machine running dv x supporting multiple users \( clients \) require adequate response time anyone ideas \? \? expect limiting factor server machine , network give real world example , quarterdeck roughly 100 people using dvx talk bunch unix boxes , novell file servers , 's much load ethernet \( maybe 4 , 20 30 people segment \) badly loaded net , apps wanted run network intensive , could run slowdowns biggest problem would machine say 486 33 plenty ram fast hard disk network card 10 people running programs , 're going see slowdowns 're \( effectively \) 3 3 mhz 486 course , dvx attempt see tasks idle make sure give time slice , 10 working programs running , 'll know well buy bigger powerful server machine significant drop price year year link want use though \( isdn 64k \) costly bandwidth limited 's interest lies seeing link used see traffic goes since n't think tom always gets time read group , 'll take liberty responding really want tom reply send mail support qdeck com 64k line certainly going restrict far ethernet typically run restrictive depends run run would think couple instances really nasty program like smoking clover would make link useless anyone else hand , probably 50 quietly updating every 10 seconds would n't impact much real world , somewhere two extremes going way personally use x daily basis , would n't want share 64k link 3 4 people said , tweak programs run \( adding calls give time slices idle sort thing \) , could probably run 15 20 people given machine started seeing slowdowns \( time network bandwidth \) hmmm anyone centre monitored traffic \? running standard ms windows programs like word \? sort packets go blazing \? size link \( 2mb 10mb \? \) average traffic flow going network high peaks many low points \? corporate wan unique usage patterns good behave one low bandwidth links normally get used way link ireland often use run dos text based client end client server database remotely dvx machine behind since server end \( \) always end \( california \) faster remotely run client via desqview x short hop server running client locally long hop server warned , tells us little usage pattern fill 64k isdn link running word windows remotely going usage dependent let 's break pieces look tracking mouse pointer easy efficient translate windows calls x popping menu little involved generate traffic restoring screen covered menu may easy may server 's displaying backing store \? server enough memory display updated locally generate little network traffic backing store , covered \? solid colored rectangle space tell xserver draw quite easily full color backdrop ren stimpy may send back x server bit bit dvx level best redraw small area , unusual cases entire screen may need repainted 1024x768 screen 4 bits per pixel 's bits sent worst possible case 're looking 50 seconds reality would never bad since screen always parts higher level x calls really depends programs \( ie 're going see slowdown x bandwidth lot sooner apps network things also \) mean network things \? vision using ms windows windows applications network processes running server getting displays wondering good x subsequently dv x protocol transferring images x calls displaying client 's machine x designed ground efficient across network 's pretty good x programs best , dos text programs almost good \( since x easily \) something like hybrid intercept calls windows makes 's graphics driver mouse driver keyboard driver convert x calls windows making way designed efficient packet switched network go lot trouble convert level xlib calls , somewhat limited know windows applications tell us quarterdeck office systems gary rich problem resolution dept anonymous ftp site qdeck com write pricing ordering info info qdeck com technical questions support qdeck com quarterdeck bbs \( 310 \) 314 3227
william cs ucla edu \( william cheng \) subject wanted diagram drawing program nntp posting host cs ucla edu organization ucla , computer science department lines 51 article tue nl lennart blade stack urc tue nl \( lennart \) writes looking program draw various kinds diagrams linux system must free must run standard \( monochrome \) x small screen size \( 800x600 \) motif openlook etc must compile linux gcc g generic unix software works ok must produce postscript files include latex documents tell another free program converts one supported formats ps must produce drawings larger window size \( \) know several programs , idraw , xfig tgif experience features would like programs ability draw circles , arcs , straight lines , boxes arrows support dashed solid line styles objects support texts size ability move copy resize rotate part drawing ability turn part drawing library component \( e g transistor symbol composed three lines , arrow circle \) aid \( numeric coordinates , screen grid \) align parts drawing less essential , fact handy preservation connection move one part drawing , lines connect part rest drawing , stay connected ideally want tool general flexible comfortable draw electronic schematics , flow charts , logic diagrams , data flow diagrams block diagrams want know programs offer features programs \? demanding programs respect disk space , memory cpu usage \? programs known work linux monochrome x \? list mentioned , tgif handles everything except rotation size text supports 90 degrees rotation currently , supports 11 \( x11r4 standard \) font sizes however , allows arbitrary scaling entire drawing effectively , allows font sizes , 11 different sizes per drawing tgif takes \( compiled option \) sparcstation told compiles linux , n't tried yet works color monochrome x bill cheng ucla computer science department \( 310 \) 645 c hall los angeles , california 90024 usa william cs ucla edu ! uunet ucbvax ! cs ucla edu ! william
gowen jade tufts edu \( g lee owen \) subject xdm , xkernel , olwm lines 33 organization tufts university medford , distribution na greetings , network 20 sun workstations , running sunos 4 1 1 openwindows 3 7 sun 3 's modified run seth robertson 's xkernel image , effectively turning xterminals use xdm \( x11r4 \) manage displays 3 xkernel machines , things worked fine , installed 4 last weekend , appear found weakness 7 clients 1 sparc 2 , sparc 2 window manager eventually getting let try precise user sitting machine actual processing xterminals control keyboard screen yanked away \( department chair , kind cute \) poked xdm days satisfied fault current theory olwm \( sun version \) meant running multiple copies one machine \( happens console user runs olwm , every xterminal logged olwm running xterminal server \) anyone prior experience sort behavior \? anyone shoot obvious holes theory \? obvious \? , course , ideas solve \? ideas greatly appreciated greg owen gowen forte cs tufts edu , gowen jade tufts edu systems programmer ta , tufts university computer science dept personal info gcs go p c g w w x email explanation interested
euamol eua ericsson se \( mats larsson \) subject summary virtual mouse ol v wm reply euamol eua ericsson se organization ellemtel telecom systems labs , stockholm , sweden lines 27 nntp posting host eua ericsson se nntp posting user euamol article cas org , cas org \( larry w virden \) writes article andrew cmu edu derrick j brashear db74 andrew cmu edu writes got following today gary risebrough worked fine excerpts mail 29 apr 93 ol v wm 3 virtual gov au \( 554 \) openwindows keyboardcommands full openwindows virtualgrabkeys false seems work find man pages virtualgrabkeys resource n't show openwindows 3 0 man pages virtualgrabkeys ow resource belongs olvwm \( 1 \) mats larsson email mats larsson eua ericsson se ellemtel telecom systems labs phone 46 8 727 125 25 , sweden fax 46 8 727 4168
cs uh edu \( man lung li \) subject malloc problem organization computer science dept , univ houston \( main campus \) lines 16 distribution world nntp posting host rodin cs uh edu solve problem message cannot perform malloc shows xtcreatemanagedwidget call \? application written x11r5 running decstation using athena widgets soon added codes remote procedure call , program refused work also program working using xlib calls rpc executable code 1 4m n't idea much memory decstation 3100 5100 help appreciated thanks man l li \( cs uh edu \) dept computer science univ houston , houston , tx
uphya001 odie uni bielefeld de \( lars koeller , d0 231 258 , , \) subject xdm configuration reply uphya001 odie uni bielefeld de nntp posting host odie uni bielefeld de organization chaos unlimited lines 38 hello ! want configure x11r5 sytem \( i486 33mhz running bsd like unix \) comming chooser menu different machines \( works \) connect connection works localhost ! 'x indirect machine ' works well ! configuration starting boot time servers specified xservers starting x server boot time x indirect localhost chooser menu appears machines named bye ' chooser broadcast number users machines load displayed correct selecting machine host x server starts nothing happens , time chooser menu appears know xdm bug x11r4 , machines running x11r5 please help lars lars koeller e mail uphya001 odie uni bielefeld de universitaet bielefeld \( germany \) uphya001 dave hrz uni bielefeld de fuer physik d0 231 phone 49 521 106 25 fax 49 521 106 4800 bielefeld 1 telex 932 362
uphya001 odie uni bielefeld de \( lars koeller , d0 231 258 , , \) subject xdm configuration reply uphya001 odie uni bielefeld de nntp posting host odie uni bielefeld de organization chaos unlimited lines 40 hello ! want configure x11r5 sytem \( i486 33mhz running bsd like unix \) comming chooser menu different machines \( works \) connect connection works localhost ! 'x indirect machine ' works well ! configuration starting boot time servers specified xservers starting x server boot time x indirect localhost chooser menu appears machines named bye ' chooser broadcast number users machines load displayed correct selecting machine host x server starts nothing happens , time chooser menu appears know xdm bug x11r4 , machines running x11r5 please help lars lars koeller e mail uphya001 odie uni bielefeld de universitaet bielefeld \( germany \) uphya001 dave hrz uni bielefeld de fuer physik d0 231 phone 49 521 106 25 fax 49 521 106 4800 bielefeld 1 telex 932 362
panix com \( rob ryan \) subject efficient pc clients organization system constructs , inc lines 27 're looking various x11 clients pc 's 're looking information relative efficiency different products notably efficient \( fast \) \? notably inefficient \? assume graphics accelerator makes significantly faster \( right i'm looking ico running xoftware 32 windows sitting distinct tcp ip platform , 's \( surprisingly \) much slower ico running sparc10 's console key ways improving performance pc \( presumably windows \) clients \? also , async solutions \? \( yes , appreciate much slower even v 42bis \) i'm process installing ppp \( header compression \) compare cslip \? 've seen product called xremote ncd promises pretty efficient , comparable products \? 're looking efficiency async , pc clients , looking addition standard ppp w compression xremote \? information would greatly appreciated i'm still taking information faq , tips relative efficiency various product offerings would great \( get impression discussions speed largely application specific , withstanding , comments would appreciated \) thanks rob rob ryan , system constructs inc panix com
sirosh cs utexas edu \( joseph sirosh \) subject x design choice color handling question organization cs dept , university texas austin lines 16 nntp posting host cs utexas edu keywords color graphics systems seen drawing routines also specify color drawing , like \( x , , color \) \( x1 , y1 , x2 , y2 , color \) \( x1 , y1 , x2 , y2 , color \) x , something like xsetforeground \( current color \) \( , w , x , \) split two functions \? x designers decide associate color object drawn , instead associate display drawn \? joseph sirosh
etxmesa eos ericsson se \( michael salmon \) subject xv 3 00 escaped ! nntp posting host eos6c02 ericsson se reply etxmesa eos ericsson se \( michael salmon \) organization ericsson telecom ab lines 26 article 1993apr29 102341 13820 comp lancs ac uk julian comp lancs ac uk \( julian g self \) writes n't shareware fee suggestion john \? 's individual make choice whether honour part money personally position would exactly thing , john obviously put lot time effort xv n't receive money pennies worth \( keep good work john \) fee suggestion individual licensing mandatory commercial , government , institutional users wonder many users xv system runs michael salmon include standard disclaimer include witty saying include fancy pseudo graphics ericsson telecom ab stockholm
sirosh cs utexas edu \( joseph sirosh \) subject encapsulated postscript x organization cs dept , university texas austin lines 7 nntp posting host cs utexas edu keywords eps view eps files x \? image color encapsulated postscript , need view screen utilities let convert encapsulated postscript plain postscript \? joseph sirosh
rvloon cv ruu nl \( ronald van loon \) subject xv 3 00 escaped ! organization university utrecht , 3d computer vision research group lines 25 sophia inria fr muller inria fr \( christophe muller \) writes interesting look change \( \) mind john interested indeed ! kind changes gnu copyleft protecting us anyway , simulog , abandon xv using mostly slide shows loop feature display \( display wonderful imagemagick package ! \) , think implement \( even shell script job \) forget xv cheers , christophe muller simulog fr police \? ma'am , 're musicians use xloadimage instead \( xli \) ronald van loon theory , difference \( rvloon cv ruu nl \) theory practice 3dcv group , utrecht netherlands practice however ,
cs cmu edu \( brian noble \) subject x server scanline padding question nntp posting host bach coda cs cmu edu organization school computer science , carnegie mellon lines 4 figured answer lies mit server ddx h brian
dcs ed ac uk \( george ross \) subject xdm env vars organization department computer science , edinburgh university lines 24 article haji haji sun , fwr8bv fin af mil writes using xdm x11r5 ow3 xview3 sun3s sparcs running sunos 4 1 1 prior using xdm , used set path environment variables \( like manpath , helppath , arch , etc \) login file xdm , login file n't get executed therefore neither olwm root window applications know variables one usual suggestion put everything every time shell rc file instead login one , fair enough users know 're several hundred users books tell , though , 's confusing best another xterms run login shells , still leaves window manager things get started menus wrong environment alternative instead xdm run client startup scripts , runs user 's favourite shell login shell , run rest startup scripts way user 's usual environment gets set normal inherited everything find almost current copy scripts things contrib edinburgh environment tar z , available usual places george ross , department computer science , university edinburgh kings buildings , road , edinburgh , scotland , 3jz mail dcs ed ac uk voice 031 650 fax 031 667
mppa3 syma sussex ac uk \( alan richardson \) subject xvertext version 5 0 released organization university sussex lines 31 available xvertext 5 0 another day , another xvertext release summary xvertext provides several functions draw strings angle x window \( previous versions limited vertical text \) 's new since 4 0 \? existing bitmap fonts magnified give reasonable fonts large sizes bounding boxes obtained gc 's stipple bitmap honoured font ids cached font names unavailable imakefile present demos better \( including ransom note like comp sources postscript one \) get \? comp sources x \( soon \) export lcs mit edu contrib xvertext 5 0 shar z \( \) alan richardson , n't school maths physical sciences , old wise univ sussex , brighton bn1 9qh , england judas priest uk mppa3 uk ac sussex syma elsewhere mppa3 syma sussex ac uk
cci dk \( henrik w nielsen \) subject help badmatch making 24bit win 8bit server ! ! organization cci europe , research development lines 72 i'm trying make 24 bit window using xcreatewindow 8 bit pseudocolor server far know possible server supports truecolor directcolor visual i'm using sun ipc card running xdpyinfo gives screen 0 dimensions 1152x900 pixels \( millimeters \) resolution dots per inch depths \( 4 \) 1 , 5 , 8 , 24 root window id depth root window 8 planes number colormaps minimum 1 , maximum 6 default colormap number visuals 8 default visual id visual visual id class pseudocolor depth 8 planes size colormap 256 entries red , green , blue masks 0x0 , 0x0 , 0x0 significant bits color specification 8 bits visual visual id class truecolor depth 24 planes size colormap 256 entries red , green , blue masks 0xff , , significant bits color specification 8 bits visual visual id class directcolor depth 24 planes size colormap 256 entries red , green , blue masks 0xff , , significant bits color specification 8 bits code looks like \( \( xio dspptr xopendisplay \( null \) \) null \) \( 1 , cannot connect x server , \( null \) \) xio scr defaultscreen \( xio dspptr \) use screen \( \( xio dspptr , xio scr , 24 , directcolor , \) \) memset \( setwinattrib , 0 , sizeof \( xsetwindowattributes \) \) xio xcreatewindow \( xio dspptr , rootwindow \( xio dspptr , xio scr \) , x , , w , h , 0 , 24 , inputoutput , , 0 , setwinattrib \) results badmatch error anyone please tell \? henrik nielsen ii basic development cc cci europe mail cci dk cc cc ii 9 phone \( 361 \) cc ii dk ii denmark e u r p e
oj world std com \( oliver jones \) subject x design choice color handling question keywords color organization shawsheen software lines 20 article cs utexas edu sirosh cs utexas edu \( joseph sirosh \) writes x designers decide associate color object drawn , instead associate display drawn \? x10 , drawing attributes bundled drawing requests , server 's drawing model caused problems performance network traffic , x11 redesign included graphic context codify drawing state application designers want draw things several different colors create gc color initialization , pass gc id drawing request information see scheifler 's article 1986 acm transactions graphics
beck irzr17 inf tu dresden de \( andre beck \) subject visualization \? organization dept computer science , tu dresden , germany lines 15 distribution world reply andre beck irs inf tu dresden de nntp posting host irzr17 inf tu dresden de hi , script program already existing could transform output \( huge table \) nice diagram graph producing postscript output input \? maybe someone already written beast brain inside andre' beck \( abpsoft \) mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de
sjg ph ac uk \( simon \) subject xv 3 00 escaped ! organization kings college london image processing group x posted ph ac uk nntp posting host sol ctr columbia edu lines 19 article 1993apr30 cv ruu nl , rvloon cv ruu nl \( ronald van loon \) writes sophia inria fr muller inria fr \( christophe muller \) writes interesting look change \( \) mind john interested indeed ! kind changes gnu copyleft protecting us anyway , simulog , abandon xv using mostly slide shows loop feature display \( display wonderful imagemagick package ! \) , think implement \( even shell script job \) forget xv stop using shame really rather nice still , objection owner claiming money legit work 's put 'll go back older versions xv simon
beck irzr17 inf tu dresden de \( andre beck \) subject xv 3 00 escaped ! organization dept computer science , tu dresden , germany lines 22 distribution world reply andre beck irs inf tu dresden de nntp posting host irzr17 inf tu dresden de chance get author really superb program remove point license statement \? least say educational \? understand use software either commercial governmental users result donation creator , everytime rare money universities , schools whatever else institutions restricted situation stays author states treats universities schools institutions context , 'll xv 2 21 maybe disk capacity soon dead , every user copy xv 3 00 home dir brain inside andre' beck \( abpsoft \) mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de
gowen jade tufts edu \( g lee owen \) subject encapsulated postscript x reply sirosh cs utexas edu 's message 30 apr 1993 03 26 21 0500 lines 18 organization tufts university medford , view eps files x \? image color encapsulated postscript , need view screen several ways available pageview \( think came system , ca n't point \) , ghostview \( ghostscript \) , new xv 3 00 package recommend latter two , especially xv want conversion utilities let convert encapsulated postscript plain postscript \? i'm sure offhand , attempt mail comp lang postscript faq , list utilities greg owen gowen forte cs tufts edu , gowen jade tufts edu systems programmer ta , tufts university computer science dept personal info gcs go p c g w w x email explanation interested
aep world std com \( andrew e page \) subject encyclopedia directory widgets \? organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 12 document either bookstores possible ftp site somewhere \? nothing really fancy , something gives listing available widgets , resources , flavors motif occur andrew e page \( warrior poet \) decision effort archer arrow mac consultant difference macintosh dsp technology want
schietke uni bonn de \( juergen schietke \) subject chars big fonts shown partially organization research institute discrete mathematics , bonn lines 30 hi , wrote small application uses pixmaps copied window show drawings works perfectly kind objects expect large fonts happens screen right half font shown way create things quite simple code xfillrectangle \( disp , pixs , , 0 , 0 , width , height \) line string \( \) xcopyarea \( disp , pixs , win , 0 , 0 , width , height , 0 , 0 \) using 340 bos 3 2 question bug aix x server \( may \) , something wrong within code \? \? sorry cross posting , really know kind error juergen schietke research insitute discrete mathematics university bonn 2 5300 bonn 1 \( germany \) tel 49 e mail schietke uni bonn de
schietke uni bonn de \( juergen schietke \) subject extension damaged chars big fonts organization research institute discrete mathematics , bonn lines 16 sorry garbage code , following used course xsetforeground \( disp , pixgc , \) xfillrectangle \( disp , pixs , pixgc , 0 , 0 , scr width , scr height \) xsetforeground \( disp , pixgc , \) line string rectangle \( disp , pixs , pixgc , \) xcopyarea \( disp , pixs , win , pixgc , 0 , 0 , win width , win height , 0 , 0 \) juergen schietke research insitute discrete mathematics university bonn 2 5300 bonn 1 tel \( 49 \) e mail schietke uni bonn de
atae spva ph ic ac uk \( ata etemadi \) subject xv 3 00 escaped ! nntp posting host prawn sp ph organization imperial college science , technology , medicine , london , england lines 23 article bglenden colobus cv nrao edu , bglenden colobus cv nrao edu \( brian glendenning \) writes alas , stop using brian brian glendenning national radio astronomy observatory bglenden nrao edu charlottesville va \( 804 \) 296 says licence non profit organisations rights copy , use , distribute etc cover nrao \? sure hope covers us please someone let know buy licence best regards ata \( \) mail dr ata etemadi , laboratory , space atmospheric physics group , imperial college science , technology , medicine , prince road , london sw7 , england internet arpanet earn bitnet atae spva ph ic ac uk ata c ucl ac uk span spva atae atae uucp usenet atae spva ph ic nsfnet relay ac uk
uvacs cs virginia edu \( gina bull \) subject need patches use dev organization university virginia computer science department lines 8 good news got two sparc10 's bad news dev apparently supported x11r4 x11r5 anyone know patch \( obtain \) either x version enable us use x11 sparc10 's \? gina
colorado edu \( mark \) subject summary virtual mouse ol v wm reply euamol eua ericsson se 's message fri , 30 apr 1993 06 45 24 gmt nntp posting host colorado edu organization , university colorado lines 14 regarding summary virtual mouse ol v wm euamol eua ericsson se \( mats larsson \) adds virtualgrabkeys ow resource belongs olvwm \( 1 \) , olvwm \( 1 \) \( version3 3 \) man page says 's called \( boolean \) resource controls whether keys marked involving grabs active resource set false , none bindings marked ever active default value true
cps msu edu \( \) subject geometry option organization dept computer science , michigan state university lines 15 distribution world nntp posting host cps msu edu greetings , need help detail geometry specification program uses xlib create simple window tried hard code x , location xcreatewindow n't work also tried xsetstandardproperties , luck could somebody enlighten subject hans hans cps msu edu pattern recognition image processing laboratory department computer science michigan state university
beck irzr17 inf tu dresden de \( andre beck \) subject x design choice color handling question keywords color reply andre beck irs inf tu dresden de organization dept computer science , tu dresden , germany lines 41 nntp posting host irzr17 inf tu dresden de article cs utexas edu , sirosh cs utexas edu \( joseph sirosh \) writes graphics systems seen drawing routines also specify color drawing , like \( x , , color \) \( x1 , y1 , x2 , y2 , color \) \( x1 , y1 , x2 , y2 , color \) x , something like xsetforeground \( current color \) \( , w , x , \) split two functions \? x designers decide associate color object drawn , instead associate display drawn \? flexibility anyway , say really true color information associated , display , gc parameter drawing routines , need fast switch green dotted lines blue ones width 2 , make 2 gcs cases simply xdrawline \( dpy , win , gc red , x1 , y1 , x2 , y2 \) xdrawline \( dpy , win , gc blue , x3 , y3 , x4 , y4 \) effect eventually complicated programmer , also much efficient flexible would include parameters like line pattern , , cap , every drawing call , color \? btw , stay away \( \) n't really need \( draw random points \) , image transfers image routines brain inside andre' beck \( abpsoft \) mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de
beck irzr17 inf tu dresden de \( andre beck \) subject encapsulated postscript x keywords eps reply andre beck irs inf tu dresden de organization dept computer science , tu dresden , germany lines 29 nntp posting host irzr17 inf tu dresden de eps plain postscript wrapped comments stripped dubious commands compatibility simply ! save showpage def include eps file restore showpage end file way show 's natural page position size programs may use comment eps file arbitrary scale , rotate translate include complicated ways brain inside andre' beck \( abpsoft \) mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de
soenke wiwi12 uni bielefeld de \( soenke voss \) subject get window draw \? nntp posting host wiwi12 uni bielefeld de organization universitaet bielefeld keywords windows , widgets lines 23 task program x application first time severe difficulties creating window draw something unfortunately basic books topic x application programming available moment running hpux 8 07 , vue x11r4 using xt xaw initialized x intrinsics top level widget xtappinitialize passed application class name set argument values window height width using xtsetarg passed toplevel widget xtsetvalues call xtrealizewidget , get window specified size , idea draw something anybody send help perhaps basic information use widgets \? situation useful use \? thanks much advance soenke soenke voss faculty economics soenke wiwi12 uni bielefeld de university bielefeld germany
meunier inf enst fr \( sylvain meunier \) subject xv 3 00 escaped ! reply meunier inf enst fr organization telecom paris \( enst \) , france lines 16 article bglenden colobus cv nrao edu , bglenden colobus cv nrao edu \( brian glendenning \) writes alas , stop using brian following version xv surprise discover new version shareware ! ! ! \( found freeware make freeware spent long time n't plain make paid use think spent time make freeware , paid use freeware stay xv 2 drop xv 3 meunier e mail meunier inf enst fr
dealy narya gsfc nasa gov \( brian dealy csc \) subject encyclopedia directory widgets \? organization nasa goddard space flight center lines 27 distribution world nntp posting host narya gsfc nasa gov originator dealy narya gsfc nasa gov directory know lists commercial non commercial widgets ics widget data book ics sells widgets various prices also public domain widgets delivery ics widget databook subscription kind thing , pay nominal fee , get cd widgets use public domain widgets freely , selectively activate widgets want purchase right use nice thing purchase whole sets widgets used dont know pricing schemes often better buy complex widgets , especially one customer distribute extent know except got databook catalog looked impressive \( lots o' widgets \) dont work ics widgets sold hope helps brian dealy 301 572 8267 knowing 's dealy kong gsfc nasa gov 's important , 's knowing ! uunet ! dftsrv ! kong ! dealy 's b dylan brian dealy 301 572 8267 knowing 's dealy kong gsfc nasa gov 's important , 's knowing ! uunet ! dftsrv ! kong ! dealy 's b dylan
jessea u013 vp com \( jesse w asher \) subject compiling mh 6 8 \( xmh \) sco 3 2 4 organization varco pruden buildings lines 47 i'm trying get mh compiled \( xmh \) i'm problems 've got mh 6 8 , using gcc sco 3 2 4 mh file listed anyone suggestions add get compile \? \? bin usr local bin debug etc usr local lib mh mail usr mail mail mandir usr man manuals gen chown bin chown editor remove bin mv f tcp ip sendmail available change mts entry sendmail mts sendmail smtp bboards usr spool bboards mf pop options see cc gcc ccoptions ansi stdc 0 dsysv curses lex lex sprintf int usr local lib ranlib define bind 3 named \( tcp ip \) used define sockets system 3 sockets \( tcp ip \) options atz bind dumb ' usr bin ' options overhead shadow sockets sys5 options jesse w asher \( 901 \) 762 6000 varco pruden buildings 6000 poplar ave , suite 400 , memphis , tn internet jessea vpbuild vp com uucp vpbuild ! jessea
paw coos dartmouth edu \( pat wilson \) subject xv 3 00 escaped ! organization dartmouth college , hanover , nh lines 22 commercial , government , institutional users must register copies xv , exceedingly reasonable price 25 per workstation x terminal site licenses available wish run xv large number machines contact author details would appreciated announcement policy change dartmouth able run xv 3 0 , i'm probably going take v2 line \( somehow missed shareware designation readme v2 , n't realize supposed register \) also debate whether , new institutions must pay policy belongs contrib directory export , contrib means contributed \( e strings , except copyright \) attached pat wilson systems manager , project paw dartmouth edu
jbrandt com \( jim brandt \) subject multiple heads sparc 2 keywords 2 head server r5 article 1993apr30 organization hughes network systems , inc lines 38 sparc 2 2 cards 'd like r5 server recognize second card created dev device , brought server , second device ignored setup second card \? note borrow card , put card sparc 2 box , r5 server finds second card set display second card , start second window manager worse case trade cards someone , maybe someone seen problem already email preferred post must thanks advance jim jim brandt hughes lan systems hughes network systems 550 south winchester blvd suite 406 san jose , ca email jbrandt com email jbrandt hls com voice \( 408 \) 246 fax \( 408 \) 246
pv cea fr \( pierre \) subject xdm configuration nntp posting host cea fr organization france lines 27 article hermes hrz uni bielefeld de , uphya001 odie uni bielefeld de \( lars koeller , d0 231 258 , , \) writes hello ! want configure x11r5 sytem \( i486 33mhz running bsd like unix \) comming chooser menu different machines \( works \) connect connection works localhost ! 'x indirect machine ' works well ! configuration starting boot time servers specified xservers starting x server boot time x indirect localhost deleted need start x server indirect name start indirect localhost , use loopback adress 's adress try contact another host , one try answer loopback adress good remember every machine adress 127 0 0 1 loopback network pierre \( 1 \) 69 08 65 42
dealy narya gsfc nasa gov \( brian dealy csc \) subject encyclopedia directory widgets \? organization nasa goddard space flight center lines 12 distribution world nntp posting host narya gsfc nasa gov originator dealy narya gsfc nasa gov mention free widget foundation maintains freely available set widgets info group gotten free widgets request cs uiuc edu list maintained volunteers may subscribe mailing list discusses various aspects using abusing widgets brian brian dealy 301 572 8267 knowing 's dealy kong gsfc nasa gov 's important , 's knowing ! uunet ! dftsrv ! kong ! dealy 's b dylan
rgb roadnet ups com \( rudy \) subject need x win popup menu package reply rgb roadnet ups com organization roadnet technologies , inc lines 9 rather write , anyone direct package let create popup menus x windows reasons portability , package rely x toolkit xlib xt intrinsics something written c would nice , thanks
adrian ora com \( adrian nye \) subject cannot create 24 plane window \( summary \) organization o'reilly associates , inc lines 23 reply adrian ora com nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu got several answers , complete crary \( tv tv tek com \) looked r4 server listings \( mit server window c \) several ways get badmatch error , even though o'reilly book says inputonly third edition \( june 92 \) o'reilly book \( vol 2 \) xcreatewindow says badmatch invalid setting window attribute attribute besides win gravity , event mask , mask , override redirect , cursor specified inputonly window depth non zero inputonly parent inputoutput inputonly border width non zero inputonly depth visual invalid screen width height 0 adrian nye o'reilly associates
gilley af mil subject looking drawing packages reply gilley af mil \( \) organization robins afb lines 46 nntp posting host decvax robins af mil article greg , greg software mitel com \( gregory lehman \) writes path ! gatech ! howland reston ans net ! usc ! cs utexas edu ! ! torn ! nott ! ! ! software mitel com ! greg greg software mitel com \( gregory lehman \) newsgroups comp windows x , comp windows x motif subject looking drawing packages message id greg date 27 apr 93 20 08 10 gmt organization mitel \( ontario \) canada lines 24 xref comp windows x comp windows x motif greetings developing application allows user interactively create edit view visual model \( e topology \) network , wondering anyone knew builder tools exist simplify task past used visual edge 's uim x product develop guis , familiar general topology support objects connecting links topology created , want provide user capabilities support grouping , zooming , etc looking form higher abstraction x drawing routines accomplish specifically , zooming grouping aspects may prove difficult , certainly time consuming , roll suggestions \? greg greg software mitel com n't mention platform digital custom widget , , exactly want cost nominal 300 call local office widget supported variety platforms heard porting sun , etc may worth check charlie gilley digital equipment corp
sean michael cmu edu subject porting athena widgets xview \? organization senior , electrical computer engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 12 nntp posting host andrew cmu edu checked faq first , luck need convert r5 tree widget use xview v3 0 problem fact xview uses event loop system , wondering anyone tips \( converted source \) converting thanks , sean \( cmu edu \)
ajaffe oddjob uchicago edu \( andrew jaffe \) subject xarchie 2 0 1 icon problems organization university chicago , astronomy astrophysics lines 24 hi ! 've installed new xarchie 2 0 1 works fine , except grayscale xterm custom icons compiled program n't work , bw terminal works fine set icon xbm file , n't give neat change busy action \( programs similar actions , e g , xbiff , work fine \) x interface author , george ferguson , suggests might problem x intrinsics , n't willing hack around fix know zero x programming , n't think find anyone know obvious fix problem \? andrew andrew jaffe ajaffe oddjob uchicago edu astronomy astrophysics , u chicago ellis ave \( 312 \) 702 chicago , il 60637 1433 \( 312 \) 702 fax
co uk \( lack mr g \) subject xdm env vars organization internet lines 18 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu article haji haji sun , fwr8bv fin af mil writes using xdm x11r5 ow3 xview3 sun3s sparcs running sunos 4 1 1 prior using xdm , used set path environment variables \( like manpath , helppath , arch , etc \) login file xdm , login file n't get executed therefore neither olwm root window applications know variables try xsession script home things xdm start process using system version \( usually usr lib x11 xdm xsession \) , check whether change \( take copy system one edit \) note , file requires x access set gordon lack contents message may reflect personal opinion intended reflect employer , anyone else
cec uchile cl \( perez c \) subject compiling mh 6 8 \( xmh \) sco 3 2 4 nntp posting host cec uchile cl organization centro de \( cec \) , universidad de chile x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 21 jesse w asher \( jessea u013 vp com \) wrote i'm trying get mh compiled \( xmh \) i'm problems 've got mh 6 8 , using gcc sco 3 2 4 mh file listed anyone suggestions add get compile \? \? bin usr local bin cc gcc ccoptions ansi stdc 0 dsysv think traditional option gcc would help personally used traditional o2 loops compile sun4 1 1 hope helps dcc uchile cl
rick ee uwm edu \( rick miller \) subject make x face easy steps ! summary 's \? organization lines 46 nntp posting host 129 89 2 33 x face bo 'e , \( \( k g 6 pd \( 0g w , `x r zs someone x face included header please reply tell turned okay \? i'm sure viewing software hand converted thing vi sun rasterfile pain ! folks n't slightest , went like make x face easy steps ! 1 scan license pcx file 2 use wingif face license , half , convert bmp 3 use paintbrush touch manually 4 use wingif half 5 use paintbrush touch 6 use wingif half convert gif unix side 7 use snapshot convert gif sun rasterfile 8 use touch convert x bitmap 9 use vi \( yes , text editor \) manually convert rasterfile uncompressed x face format \( lots global ed commands , time 're done 'll mirror hex sleep ! ! \) linux side use convert see bo 'e , \( \( k g 6 pd \( 0g w , `x r zs b try viewing whatever means available c go back step 9 , right time rick miller rick ee uwm edu ricxjo discus mil wi us ricxjo muelisto send postcard , get one back ! enposxtigu bildkarton kaj vi ricevos alion ! rick miller 16203 woods muskego , wis 53150 usa
j k wight newcastle ac uk \( jim wight \) subject axe 5 0 available organization internet lines 89 reply j k wight newcastle ac uk nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu placed new release axe editor axe 5 0 tar z export lcs mit edu \( 18 24 0 12 \) arjuna ncl ac uk \( 128 240 150 1 \) significant change time , justification hike major version number , undo implemented default last change undone , resource provided allow user specify many , including unlimited , levels undo information kept also , undo undo supported truth rumour next version 19 \) encountered axe summary axe simple use text editor x represents significant improvement xedit also built around athena text widget features , amongst things , multiple windows multiple buffers default menu interface optional button interface , choice layout buttons user control expert use access external filters provision defining keyboard macro geometry specification resizing terms characters file selection via browser knowledge line numbers matching regular expression searching restricted unlimited undo ability change font easy entry control codes xterm like keymap feature easy runtime setting selected preferences \( resources \) brief comprehensive line help server mode cooperating client programs optional extension language using tcl optional xaw3d widget set compatability collection reusable widgets functionality axe personally built run core axe , e without tcl xaw3d options , following systems sun sparc sunos 4 1 x mit x11r5 sun sparc sunos 5 1 mit x11r5 encore 4 3 mit x11r5 dec 5000 120 ultrix 4 2 mit x11r5 hp 9000 710 hp ux 8 07 mit x11r5 mac iici au x 3 0 mit x11r5 subject level testing tested tcl xaw3d options first number ' ifdef isms fed back incorporated code possible replacement provided systems one although axe probably build r4 run time problems encountered past bothered try version r4 , put effort solving previously known problems therefore , r4 much take pot luck n't work alternative try last release , 2 1 1 , version 2 still around n't many features uses widget creation library \( wcl \) , requires old version wcl , 1 06 1 05 version 3 axe nearing completion version 2 wcl came axe 2 never got converted make use axe available anonymous ftp export lcs mit edu \( 18 24 0 12 \) arjuna ncl ac uk \( 128 240 150 1 \) initially , probably due course several ftp sites check nearest using xarchie ca n't ftp , try sending email ftpmail decwrl dec com word help alone message body receive instructions ftp via email jim j k wight newcastle ac uk department computing science , university newcastle , tel 44 91 222 8238 newcastle upon tyne , ne1 7ru , united kingdom fax 44 91 222 8232
itg ti com \( john \) subject pixmap standard \? nntp posting host itg ti com organization development , texas instruments inc , plano texas x disclaimer message written user texas instruments inc opinions expressed within user necessarily texas instruments lines 20 group interested using format multi colored icons buttons etc easily converted format files using pbmplus easily move xpm environments ms windows os 2 pm \( wondering xpm format consideration used standard x consortium r6 would prefer use whatever best supported x along subject line , reason standard x pixmap used n't associated colormap attributes \? involved \? wondering n't editors pixmaps format email replies preferred thanks advance john texas instruments email itg ti com standard disclaimers go
ed hew xenitec ca subject biz sco newsgroups faq \( periodic posting \) organization xenitec consulting services , , , canada summary subscribe \( \) keywords biz , sco , newsgroups , mailing lists lines 123 evolution sco newsgroups mailing lists many readers enjoyed opportunity obtain contribute useful information sco open desktop since 1990 usenet newsgroup sco opendesktop 's companion mailing list similarly , demonstrated need information discussion forum sco products general increasing demand additional sco newsgroups , many current contributors including active circulating sco related newsgroups mailing lists felt readership would best served creating biz sco hierarchy improve propagation \( hence availability \) worldwide biz sco opendesktop , general , announce may 1 , 1991 accordance accepted procedure within biz given content , change relocated opendesktop newsgroup proper place within established usenet news hierarchy adds new announce general groups aug 1 , 1991 , former sco list uunet uu net became keeping established biz sco naming conventions biz sco binaries biz sco sources june 1 , 1992 respectively accommodate sco xenix , unix opendesktop specific binaries source code binaries sources news groups moderated , moderator submissions information policy outlined periodic postings newsgroups respecting usenet , newsgroups gated mailing lists , archived several ftp hosts biz sco magazine dec 14 , 1992 , provide discussion area readers , writers publishers sco magazine subject usenet news hierarchies carried feed , able subscribe following newsgroup mailing list subscription biz sco opendesktop request xenitec ca biz sco general request xenitec ca biz sco announce request xenitec ca biz sco sources none biz sco binaries none biz sco magazine request xenitec ca strongly encouraged obtain newsgroups via usenet news mechanisms mail anyone difficulty arranging news feed newsgroups welcome email 'll best help also offer required software source code form via anonymous ftp uucp , many archive sites , explored options , still unable receive biz sco news , may subscribe mailing lists 4 discussion newsgroups bi gated companion mailing lists , anyone access news uucp internet mail feed still participate fully using email mailing list subscribers send request appropriate mailing list subscription address , including message body add subscriber address eg add logname site main add ! stream ! ! logname inclusion alternative working bang path relative well know major functional site might prove beneficial deletions handled way , simply substitute delete add , ensuring use exact address subscribed mailing list subscribers receive post article submission information request processed n't receive acknowledgement within days , check routing try test message via xenitec ca back host cases , 's likely someone , somewhere , bouncing mail replies \( would mailing list traffic \) , 'll want resolve connectivity problem trying subscribe mailing list subscriptions free , subject whatever arrangements may site \( \) feeding receive response experience sudden prolonged drop zero volume one mailing lists , indicates longer able find working route site loose handful subscribers way month happens , please email us known working bang path relative major site 's newsgroups \( mailing lists applicable \) biz sco opendesktop technical questions answers informative postings relating past , present , future implementations sco opendesktop operating environment 's various bundled components biz sco general questions , answers comments sco products general , course resulting discussions biz sco announce sco sco developer product announcements interest current future users sco products , sco developers , resellers distributors \( moderated , followups directed biz sco general \) biz sco sources sysv bsd source code useful programs utilities , modified compile run various sco xenix , unix , opendesktop biz sco binaries binary packages compiled sco compatible source code , often source posted biz sco sources often using sco custom utility biz sco magazine interaction sco magazine readers , writers publishers always endeavour post article applicable newsgroup example , posting odt question general newsgroup preclude question answers saved public odt archives appropriate crossposting allowed solely responsible administration biz sco suggestions additional biz sco newsgroups mailing lists emailed address ed hew , xenitec ca ! uunet ca ! xenitec ! xenitec consulting services , , canada 1 519 570 training centres ltd mississauga canada 1 800 387 biz sco newsgroups mailing lists godfather
kestrel unx sas com \( david \) subject question originator kestrel unx sas com nntp posting host kestrel unx sas com organization sas institute inc lines 15 want something like date 0 get output date command put selection unfortunately , interactive little bugger n't command argument tell put little window , command use like \? , analog put stuff instead cut buffer 0 \? david phone \( 919 \) 677 8000 sas institute inc e mail unx sas com
b8 b8 ingr com \( randy \) subject help xcleararea keywords , xcleararea organization intergraph lines 30 hi , could please tell errors ways trying update drawable drawable happens pixmap button problem xcleararea \( xtdisplay \( usr 0 \) , xtwindow \( usr 0 \) , 80 , 8 , 40 , 40 , true \) appears work sprintf \( tmp str , r , fun \) \( xtdisplay \( usr 0 \) , 0 , gc , 78 , 10 , tmp str , \( strlen \( tmp str \) \) \) problem new info drawn old info still even pass xcleararea false see clear redraws new info , old info still help please ! ! ! thanks randy b8 ingr com intergraph , huntsville alabama
jessea u013 vp com \( jesse w asher \) subject x windows extensions perl \? \? \? organization varco pruden buildings lines 9 using stuff perl , incorporate things like curses use perl wondering anyone done x \( preferably motif \) , , could get source \? jesse w asher \( 901 \) 762 6000 varco pruden buildings 6000 poplar ave , suite 400 , memphis , tn internet jessea vpbuild vp com uucp vpbuild ! jessea
lachman com \( steve alexander \) subject compiling mh 6 8 \( xmh \) sco 3 2 4 nntp posting host i88 isc com organization lachman technology , inc , naperville , il lines 62 article 1993apr30 vpbuild vp com jessea u013 vp com \( jesse w asher \) writes i'm trying get mh compiled \( xmh \) i'm problems 've got mh 6 8 , using gcc sco 3 2 4 mh file listed anyone suggestions add get compile \? \? 's one used \( \) id mh , v 1 7 90 04 06 09 44 31 sources exp sco 3 2 bin usr local bin bboards etc usr local lib mh mail usr spool mail mail lsocket mandir usr man cc gcc ccoptions traditional manuals none chown bin chown mts sendmail smtp pop debug signal void sprintf int options bind dumb rename sockets sys5 mime ' usr bin ' ' ' ' 700 ' ' 600 ' ' ' shadow curses ranlib may want use different locking style mailbox mounted nfs use style locking also applied following tweak c src public mh 6 8 c tue dec 15 10 55 22 1992 c tue apr 13 14 02 04 1993 24 , 30 include sys types h include sys stat h endif ! defined \( svr4 \) defined \( ncr \) include h endif 24 , 31 include sys types h include sys stat h endif ! defined \( svr4 \) defined \( ncr \) defined \( sys5 \) ! define 1024 include h endif took care everything man pages , installed hand good luck , steve steve alexander , lachman technology , inc lachman com \( 708 \) 505 9555 fax \( 708 \) 505 ! sun , ico ! !
ethan cs columbia edu \( ethan solomita \) subject desqview x tcp ip reliable \? implemented \? organization columbia university department computer science lines 18 three q 's 1 \) reliable \? 2 \) send information ms windows app x11 protocol \? draw everything graphics one window , use multiple windows essentially work cleverly \? 3 \) want run ms word , example , remotely , run separate copy ms windows remotely , start ms word , ms word started remotely \? thanks lot ! ethan
morris npt nuwc navy mil \( morris hirsch \) subject \( none \) organization internet lines 30 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu adding motif wrapper family data display programs programs written steps use check true access new data otherwise block \( new data comes quite often \) use check messages true read otherwise continue \( messages user commands often \) update display according latest data messages typically several running windows , plus data producer serving device setting flag everyone blocking makes sure device server gets run xt xm also model must fit o'reilly vol iv ch 9 discusses adding file also add run idle time 'open up' existing main loop call workproc problem blocking new data longer appropriate neither letting program free run others hurt unix select call lets block several ready want x main loop except file suggestions examples welcome ! run sgi personal iris indigo systems morris hirsch aka morris navy mil 401 841
smyrna cc vt edu \( ray stell \) subject public patch 0 organization virginia tech , blacksburg , virginia lines 14 distribution world nntp posting host smyrna cc vt edu r5 file fix 01 line reads subject line n't see file fix 00 got hmmm lines putting fix 01 , made wonder missed 00 mark \? thank ray stell smyrna cc vt edu \( 703 \) 231 call stephen first martyr n't lazarus deal \? c lewis
eurom rhein main de \( \) subject preventing user hitting ctrl alt exit x content type text plain charset iso 8859 1 lines 14 content transfer encoding 8bit organization free software association germany x newsreader version 0 1 hi , hello , admin rs 6000 running aix 3 2 , x11r5 , motif , want prevent user hitting alt exit x try usr lib x11 xconfig cu free software association germany great software free software phone data
ma201rs prism gatech edu \( shonkwiler r w \) subject scrollbar xterm keywords xterm , scrollbar organization georgia institute technology lines 10 possible get xterm scrollbar come right side instead left \? ron shonkwiler r w georgia institute technology , atlanta georgia , 30332 uucp ! allegra , amd , hplabs , seismo , ut ngp ! gatech ! prism ! ma201rs arpa ma201rs prism gatech edu
sommerfeld wpi edu \( k \) subject using xterm display output \? organization worcester polytechnic institute , worcester , lines 46 distribution world nntp posting host sommerfeld wpi edu hello , writing program forks number child processes children printing things screen \( quite messy one window \) xterm option seems solution opening slave windows display output use following code open pty \( taken stevens \) manage open x term successfully problem however write x term \? please help ! static char pty name 12 int pty master \( void \) int pty master \( void \) int , fd char ptr struct stat static char static char \( ptr ptr ! 0 ptr \) \( pty name , dev \) pty name 8 ptr pty name 9 '0' \( stat \( pty name , \) 0 \) break \( 0 16 \) pty name 9 \( \( fd open \( pty name , \) \) 0 \) return \( fd \) return \( 1 \) email ee wpi edu eye eye makes whole world blind
mcgary intellection com \( mike mcgary \) subject keyboard mapping window placement questions reply mentorg com 's message tue , 27 apr 1993 18 29 12 gmt organization intellection , inc lines 51 article 1993apr27 news mentorg com mentorg com \( darcy \) writes two common subjects hope someone deal specific questions 1 question 1 deleted 2 would like place popup immediate right main window want coord , right left sides touching need ask x , coord window manager 's border main window ring bell anyone called \( \) , immediately checking x , move seeing right , next callback asking x , seeing offset wm border help would appreciated darcy darcy mentorg com done , i'm sure used best approach \( although tried several methods \) run window \( using xquerytree \( \) \) get root window , simple window managers slap window root window size root window , sure take account calculations calculate position width height offsets window using \( \) sure take border width consideration remember windows border width outside window , windows x , , width , height must adjusted accordingly give pretty good numbers much space window manager using , place new window , use numbers calculate want place , window manager parent outside place window \( remember correctly \) disclaimer memory , longer code get working several window managers correctly feel free call e mail info mcgary mike mcgary voice \( 214 \) 620 2100 intellection fax \( 214 \) 484 1603 lbj freeway , suite 780 arpa mcgary intellection com dallas , texas uucp intellection com ! mcgary cs utexas edu
scott shuksan ds boeing com \( scott moody \) subject x server sun \? keywords window manager organization man machine systems technology x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 32 using hds x terminal , really like really powerful run x server without running window manager one run special client x program called window manager , either \( 1 \) run motif openlook 's firmware \( limiting network traffic home \) \( 2 \) run motif openlook home place \( like sparc , vms \) powerful , especially since exit one window manager \( without killing windows \) start another manager \( vms tools need special meta mouse work one manager \) well question sparcstation running openlook , anyone know break apart olwm olwm slave program \? basically want run server , go somewhere else run window manager please respond e mail \( well posting \) large volumes window x \) thanks scott moody \( 206 \) 773 answers cross references scott shuksan boeing com uunet ! bcstec ! shuksan ! scott
support qdeck com \( technical support \) subject desqview x tcp ip reliable \? implemented \? organization quarterdeck office systems , santa monica ca lines 46 article kem cs columbia edu ethan cs columbia edu \( ethan solomita \) writes three q 's 1 \) reliable \? use day every day \( maintaining ftp site answering mail via support qdeck com \) , honestly say last months 've never machine go due sort tcpip network manager instability \( course , 've crashed machine quite times purpose , beta testing sort thing , tcpip portion quite stable \) however , keep mind dvx network managers going stable software sit top \( underlying network kernel , ca n't expect dvx terribly stable \) 2 \) send information ms windows app x11 protocol \? draw everything graphics one window , use multiple windows essentially work cleverly \? goes window graphics drawn \( vastly simplify goes , take windows graphics api calls , translate directly x protocol unfortunately , windows really written network aware , sometimes see speed penalty app something stupid , like sending big white bitmap erase something rather drawing white box fortunately , sort thing rare \) 3 \) want run ms word , example , remotely , run separate copy ms windows remotely , start ms word , ms word started remotely \? need run ms windows , word runs inside could run multiple windows programs within one window , windows ways start start windows , practice 's really major problem system set run , automatically starts word full screen \( windows \) , never see part windows word \) quarterdeck office systems internet support tom pricing ordering info qdeck com tech questions support qdeck com bbs \( 310 \) 314 3227 fax \( 310 \) 314 3217 compuserve go quarterdeck anonymous ftp qdeck com \( 149 17 8 10 \) , leave email address password
bernward moepi open de \( bernward averwald \) subject xdm env vars organization home lines 33 article haji haji sun fwr8bv fin af mil writes hi , using xdm x11r5 ow3 xview3 sun3s sparcs running sunos 4 1 1 prior using xdm , used set path environment variables \( like manpath , helppath , arch , etc \) login file xdm , login file n't get executed therefore neither olwm root window applications know variables always use following cshrc f \( \? login 0 \) source home login endif login setenv login 1 n't need set environment variables cshrc , get set login via xdm xon xrsh rx hope helps , bernward bernward averwald , 42 , 4600 dortmund 1 , voice 49 231 fax 49 231 , e mail bernward moepi open de \( b rcc de \) think need lear jet
hps jach hawaii edu \( henry stilmack hawaii sysmgr \) subject help building xview sparc classic lines 109 reply hps jach hawaii edu \( henry stilmack hawaii sysmgr \) organization uk canada netherlands joint astronomy centre , hilo , hawaii anyone help \? system sparc classic , solaris 2 1 , gcc 2 3 3 , x11r5 try build xview libraries \( xview3 , patched patch x11r5 solaris kit \) , get following error rm f ndet loop shared ndet loop gcc fpcc struct return e o2 build include usr x11r5 include dsysv 15 dos locale dos mmap ndet loop c l c gcc fpcc struct return o2 build include usr x11r5 include dsysv 15 dos locale dos mmap c x c shared ndet loop file included build include xview notify h 29 , build include xview private h 24 , x c 18 usr include sys ucontext h 25 parse error `sigset t' usr include sys ucontext h 25 warning end struct union usr include sys ucontext h 26 warning data definition type storage class usr include sys ucontext h 29 parse error ` ' usr include sys ucontext h 29 warning data definition type storage class file included build include xview private h 24 , x c 18 build include xview notify h 286 parse error ` ' build include xview notify h 286 warning data definition type storage class file included x c 35 usr include sys user h 226 undeclared , outside functions ndet loop c 71 undeclared , outside functions ndet loop c 85 variable `ndet incomplete type ndet loop c 88 parse error ` ' ndet loop c 88 warning data definition type storage class ndet loop c function `ndet fig sig ndet loop c 687 undeclared \( first use function \) ndet loop c 687 \( undeclared identifier reported ndet loop c 687 function appears \) ndet loop c function `ndet signal ndet loop c 751 parse error t' ndet loop c 764 `sigset t' undeclared \( first use function \) ndet loop c 764 parse error `newmask' ndet loop c 766 `newmask' undeclared \( first use function \) ndet loop c 769 undeclared \( first use function \) ndet loop c 777 parse error ` \) ' ndet loop c 795 warning assignment makes pointer integer without cast ndet loop c 798 parse error ` \) ' ndet loop c function `ndet send delayed ndet loop c 825 `sigset t' undeclared \( first use function \) ndet loop c 825 parse error `newmask' ndet loop c 837 `newmask' undeclared \( first use function \) ndet loop c 839 undeclared \( first use function \) ndet loop c 848 parse error ` \) ' ndet loop c top level ndet loop c 1022 parse error ` ' ndet loop c 85 storage size `ndet n't known error code 1 make fatal error command failed target `ndet loop o' rm f ndet loop shared ndet loop gcc fpcc struct return e o2 build include usr x11r5 include dsysv 15 dos locale dos mmap ndet loop c l c gcc fpcc struct return o2 build include usr x11r5 include dsysv 15 dos locale dos mmap c x c shared ndet loop file included build include xview notify h 29 , build include xview private h 24 , x c 18 usr include sys ucontext h 25 parse error `sigset t' usr include sys ucontext h 25 warning end struct union usr include sys ucontext h 26 warning data definition type storage class usr include sys ucontext h 29 parse error ` ' usr include sys ucontext h 29 warning data definition type storage class file included build include xview private h 24 , x c 18 build include xview notify h 286 parse error ` ' build include xview notify h 286 warning data definition type storage class file included x c 35 usr include sys user h 226 undeclared , outside functions ndet loop c 71 undeclared , outside functions ndet loop c 85 variable `ndet incomplete type ndet loop c 88 parse error ` ' ndet loop c 88 warning data definition type storage class ndet loop c function `ndet fig sig ndet loop c 687 undeclared \( first use function \) ndet loop c 687 \( undeclared identifier reported ndet loop c 687 function appears \) ndet loop c function `ndet signal ndet loop c 751 parse error t' ndet loop c 764 `sigset t' undeclared \( first use function \) ndet loop c 764 parse error `newmask' ndet loop c 766 `newmask' undeclared \( first use function \) ndet loop c 769 undeclared \( first use function \) ndet loop c 777 parse error ` \) ' ndet loop c 795 warning assignment makes pointer integer without cast ndet loop c 798 parse error ` \) ' ndet loop c function `ndet send delayed ndet loop c 825 `sigset t' undeclared \( first use function \) ndet loop c 825 parse error `newmask' ndet loop c 837 `newmask' undeclared \( first use function \) ndet loop c 839 undeclared \( first use function \) ndet loop c 848 parse error ` \) ' ndet loop c top level ndet loop c 1022 parse error ` ' ndet loop c 85 storage size `ndet n't known error code 1 make fatal error command failed target `ndet loop o' obviously , due problem encountered including sys ucontext h 've tried several approaches , ca n't get past point help would greatly appreciated nui , henry stilmack \) computing systems manager \) perform random uk netherlands canada joint astronomy centre \) senseless acts beauty 660 n place , hilo , hi \) hps jach hawaii edu 808 969 \)
oracle com \( robert \) subject resolution , bitmapped fonts , device independence nntp posting host us oracle com organization oracle corporation , belmont , ca x disclaimer message written unauthenticated user oracle corporation opinions expressed user necessarily oracle lines 60 recently corrected resolution sparcstation changing usr lib x11 xdm xservers 0 local usr bin x11 x 0 500 dpi 100 0 local usr bin x11 x 0 500 dpi 85 determined 19 1152x900 monitor 85 dpi measuring active screen area dividing resolution however , caused application fonts behave strangely research , believe caused applications requesting fonts family , weight , slant , believe x grabbing first font path characteristics displaying since 75dpi 100dpi fonts path , results inaccurate speedo fonts , family using \( \) think incorrect fonts always provided resolution display never seems happen unless explicitly request fonts ! true scaleable bitmapped fonts ! instance , command fn ' bitstream charter 240 ' invoke 75dpi font \( despite fact speedo font \) command fn ' adobe courier 240 ' invoke 75dpi font 100dpi font \( depending font path \) despite fact x knows display 85 dpi , generate font ! unless applications specifies resolution , x appears pick stupid default bug \? feature \? , \? anything get around problem \? people suggested lie resolution , specify single font path \( 75 100 , \) would least make app consistent , like able look rulers appear paint application say yup , thats inch anyone set bitmapped fonts use \? system info sun sparc 10 41 w 32 mb , sunos 4 1 3 xdpyinfo version number 11 0 vendor string mit x consortium vendor release number 5000 screen 0 dimensions 1152x900 pixels \( millimeters \) resolution dots per inch xset q font path usr lib x11 fonts misc , usr lib x11 fonts speedo , usr lib x11 fonts 100dpi , usr lib x11 fonts 75dpi thanks oracle com bob \( 415 \) 506 applications architect , applications technology group , applications division oracle corporation , redwood shores , ca 94065
pookie crd ge com \( janet barnett \) subject help badmatch making 24bit win 8bit server ! ! nntp posting host pookie crd ge com organization ge corp research development , schenectady , ny lines 28 article 1993apr30 cci dk cci dk \( henrik w nielsen \) writes i'm trying make 24 bit window using xcreatewindow 8 bit pseudocolor server far know possible stuff deleted xio xcreatewindow \( xio dspptr , rootwindow \( xio dspptr , xio scr \) , x , , w , h , 0 , 24 , inputoutput , , 0 , setwinattrib \) results badmatch error anyone please tell \? colormap element setwinattrib must legitimate truecolor colormap , use xcreatecolormap \( \) proper visual use setwinattrib \( n't forget mask ! \) inevitable caveat usually use widgets , setting visual colormap resources rather direct x routines , could wrong , think general difficulty allen barnett \( whose wife graciously allowed use account \)
wilfred hansen cs cmu edu subject andrew view v 2 1 organization carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 11 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xannounce expo lcs mit edu latest issue andrew view , newsletter andrew consortium available simplest way get via ftp andrew cmu edu \( 128 2 45 40 \) directory newsletters subdirectories ascii postscript contain newsletter formats requested past , receive email copy may request placed mailing list sending request info andrew request andrew cmu edu fred hansen
j k wight newcastle ac uk \( jim wight \) subject axe 5 0 available organization computing laboratory , u newcastle upon tyne , uk lines 89 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xannounce expo lcs mit edu placed new release axe editor axe 5 0 tar z export lcs mit edu \( 18 24 0 12 \) arjuna ncl ac uk \( 128 240 150 1 \) significant change time , justification hike major version number , undo implemented default last change undone , resource provided allow user specify many , including unlimited , levels undo information kept also , undo undo supported truth rumour next version 19 \) encountered axe summary axe simple use text editor x represents significant improvement xedit also built around athena text widget features , amongst things , multiple windows multiple buffers default menu interface optional button interface , choice layout buttons user control expert use access external filters provision defining keyboard macro geometry specification resizing terms characters file selection via browser knowledge line numbers matching regular expression searching restricted unlimited undo ability change font easy entry control codes xterm like keymap feature easy runtime setting selected preferences \( resources \) brief comprehensive line help server mode cooperating client programs optional extension language using tcl optional xaw3d widget set compatability collection reusable widgets functionality axe personally built run core axe , e without tcl xaw3d options , following systems sun sparc sunos 4 1 x mit x11r5 sun sparc sunos 5 1 mit x11r5 encore 4 3 mit x11r5 dec 5000 120 ultrix 4 2 mit x11r5 hp 9000 710 hp ux 8 07 mit x11r5 mac iici au x 3 0 mit x11r5 subject level testing tested tcl xaw3d options first number ' ifdef isms fed back incorporated code possible replacement provided systems one although axe probably build r4 run time problems encountered past bothered try version r4 , put effort solving previously known problems therefore , r4 much take pot luck n't work alternative try last release , 2 1 1 , version 2 still around n't many features uses widget creation library \( wcl \) , requires old version wcl , 1 06 1 05 version 3 axe nearing completion version 2 wcl came axe 2 never got converted make use axe available anonymous ftp export lcs mit edu \( 18 24 0 12 \) arjuna ncl ac uk \( 128 240 150 1 \) initially , probably due course several ftp sites check nearest using xarchie ca n't ftp , try sending email ftpmail decwrl dec com word help alone message body receive instructions ftp via email jim j k wight newcastle ac uk department computing science , university newcastle , tel 44 91 222 8238 newcastle upon tyne , ne1 7ru , united kingdom fax 44 91 222 8232
jessea u013 vp com \( jesse w asher \) subject xw widget set ported x11r5 \? \? organization varco pruden buildings lines 14 i'm trying compile uses xw widget set i'm problems 're using motif x11r5 seems version xw stuff ported r3 patches port r5 \( newer port altogether \) \? \? perhaps newer port use r5 \? \? thanks advance jesse w asher \( 901 \) 762 6000 varco pruden buildings 6000 poplar ave , suite 400 , memphis , tn internet jessea vpbuild vp com uucp vpbuild ! jessea
organization university central florida computer services jim jim ucf1vm bitnet subject hummingbird software query lines 11 hello , considering buying hummingbird x windows software ms windows 3 1 pc \( 386 40mhz , ne2000 ethernet board \) would anyone tell using package similar environment happy \? connecting sun sparcstation 10 running sun os 4 1 3 thanks much , jim university central florida
min ac kr subject \( none \) organization internet lines 7 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu subscrive please subscribe e mail min ac kr
barr pop psu edu \( david barr \) subject xv 3 00 escaped ! organization penn state population research institute lines 17 nntp posting host bosnia pop psu edu article 2 cs cmu edu tgl cs cmu edu \( tom lane \) writes commercial \? 's big difference polite request voluntary donation commercial , 's illegal copy 'll sic lawyers software \? documentation say commercial , government , institutional users must register copies xv , exceedingly reasonable price 25 per workstation x terminal n't sound like voluntary donation dave system administrator , penn state population research institute define 25 typewriter
deepak expert cc purdue edu \( deepak \) subject stdout stderr program organization purdue university computing center lines 13 hi , anyone know redirect stdout stderr program callback function x \? program fork \( \) child process guess ca n't use pipes anyone help \? thanks , deepak
logica co uk subject wanted rolling demo creator lines 10 wanted produce rolling demonstration x window motif software anybody know public domain software record playback x window events similar \? thanks advance paul logica co uk must protest captain merry man ! ! ! ! worf
slayer student cwru edu \( chad \) subject xfree86 \? \? organization case western reserve university lines 8 nntp posting host student cwru edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 chad tv sucks case western reserve univ know 're upset right , boy , po cwru edu 'll pretend n't say ! ! slayer student cwru edu homer simpson bart
hps jach hawaii edu \( henry stilmack system mgr \) subject choosing window manager reply hps jach hawaii edu organization uk canada netherlands joint astronomy centre , hilo , hawaii lines 13 back \( e , several months \) someone posted method allowing user choose \( via something else \? \? \) window manager interactively x startup time could original poster \( anyone else \) please email copy method , lost original posting \? thanks henry stilmack \) computing systems manager \) perform random uk netherlands canada joint astronomy centre \) senseless acts beauty 660 n place , hilo , hi \) hps jach hawaii edu 808 969 \)
joe com \( joe \) subject experience \? organization island software lines 19 i'm going purchasing one anyone experience card \? positive negative comments welcome ! please respond immediately thanks , joe joe joe com island software ! joe sgi com \( 415 \) 969
dean gene med umn edu \( dean \( \) \) subject planet x nntp posting host gene med umn edu organization university minnesota x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 28 one experience planet x , considering buying use sparcstation ipc , way run mac programs sparc would recommend buying piece software emulation sparc like \? give window mac give window individual programs \? information would greatly appreciated thanks , dean institute human genetics university minnesota box 206 hammer , harvard street east river road tend look every minneapolis , mn problem nail voice \( 612 \) 625 fax \( 612 \) 626 email dean med umn edu
tcs com \( \) subject animation xputimage \( \) \? organization communications , inc lines 28 article 1993apr21 154620 16330 infodev cam ac uk , dcr mail ast cam ac uk \( derek c richardson \) writes hi , i'm new group please bear ! two years ago wrote sunview application fast animation raster files sunview becoming rapidly obselete , 've finally decided rewrite everything scratch xview put together quick test , 've found xputimage \( \) considerably slower \( factor 2 average \? \) sunview command pw rop \( \) moves image data memory pixrects canvas sparc ipx seems \( 1 \) x protocol communication slowing things \( 2 \) xputimage inefficient ! question , fastest way x11r5 dump 8 plane image data window \? take advantage fact client running machine server \? stuck xputimage \( \) \( case might well give \) \? help appreciated thanks ! derek fastest way use x server shared memory extension uses shared memory local x server \( hence images n't duplicated \) , defaults regular image routines either shared mem extension available , 's localhost
thomas richard stevenson mts cc wayne edu \( thomas r stevenson \) subject imakefile files keywords imakefile distribution world organization wayne state university lines 6 nntp posting host 141 217 4 31 've installed many x apps , many imakefiles lines xmkmf create makefile , makefile also \( comment \? \) lines always edit lines make command wondering lines , might wrong causes make command dislike thanks !
axel \( axel \) subject x meta file , anyone \? nntp posting host cv hp com organization hewlett packard company , corvallis , oregon usa x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 lines 19 hi , i'm working project involves storing application 's rendering x display playing back rather reinvent wheel , like find file format saving x protocol software saves replays session ideas \? 've heard version save replay sessions 'd willing share much code develop back x community axel axel cv hp com
amir matis ingr com \( amir j katz \) subject xv 3 0 author vacation till may 10 organization see technologies ltd lines 9 reply amir matis ingr com nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu \( xpert list \) people flaming john bradley , author xv 's vacation till may 10 \( 15 , n't remember \) maybe slow wait hear side wrt copyrights , fees , etc amir j katz amir matis ingr com \( ingr ! matis ! amir \) system specialist voice 972 52 see technologies ltd fax 972 52 boldly go one hacked
dcr mail ast cam ac uk \( derek c richardson \) subject xview 3 0 question nntp posting host ioas09 ast cam ac uk reply dcr mail ast cam ac uk organization institute astronomy , cambridge lines 14 yet another xview question \( easy \) way detecting user resized frame externally way window manager \( e g grabbing letting go frame resize corners olwm \) \? , please let know ! derek derek c richardson tel \( 0223 \) 337548 x 37501 institute astronomy fax \( 0223 \) 337523 cambridge , u k cb3 0ha e mail dcr mail ast cam ac uk
organization queen 's university kingston qucdn queensu ca subject tn3270 support xterm \? lines 2 tn3270 program support xterm \? n't like x3270 ca n't copy windows thanks
barr pop psu edu \( david barr \) subject tn3270 support xterm \? organization penn state population research institute lines 13 nntp posting host bosnia pop psu edu article 93122 qucdn queensu ca qucdn queensu ca writes tn3270 program support xterm \? n't like x3270 ca n't copy windows thanks x3270 export lcs mit edu supposedly use another x3270 cleaned brian ward ward math psu edu adds better color support , lots bugs , well cut paste put export lcs mit edu , tar z dave system administrator , penn state population research institute end article \( \) next \?
dbrooks osf org \( david brooks \) subject xv 3 0 author vacation till may 10 reply dbrooks osf org \( david brooks \) organization open software foundation lines 14 amir matis ingr com writes people flaming john bradley , author xv 's vacation till may 10 \( 15 , n't remember \) maybe slow wait hear side wrt copyrights , fees , etc respect john 's ability integrity , really regret leaving major release \( , accurately , making release leaving \) several us problems xv 3 00 , particular issues fixes far made imakefiles xv h without john , everybody posting fixes work , chaos inevitable let 's hope temporary john brooks using dad 's account
acsu buffalo edu \( qi \) subject source code x article acsu organization ub lines 16 nntp posting host lictor acsu buffalo edu dear netters could mail source code book advanced x window application programming johnson \? need source code , ask thank much ! sincerely , , , suny
daniels neosoft com \( brad daniels \) subject xv 3 00 escaped ! organization neosoft communications services \( 713 \) 684 5900 lines 24 given source code contains explicit permission use modify code without fee addition shareware notice , would say shareware notice need make minor changes create derivative work explicitly allowed first part copyright notice course , would circumventing author 's wishes subject , 'd say 're going pay matter , 'd relatively safe ground approach fact , given internal contradictions copyright notices , 'd guess none could ever enforced , lawyer , ca n't positive regardless , fees 's asking excessive , would encourage anyone wants use program pay possible even though unlikely actual legal obligations pay author , would reasonable , support efforts nothing else brad brad daniels ` money ca n't buy happiness , daniels neosoft com guess 'll rent n't work neosoft , weird al n't speak employer
graeme labtam labtam oz au \( graeme gill \) subject xv 3 00 escaped ! organization labtam australia pty ltd , melbourne , australia lines 9 article sophia inria fr , muller inria fr \( christophe muller \) writes anyway , simulog , abandon xv using mostly slide shows loop feature display \( display wonderful imagemagick package ! \) , think implement \( even shell script job \) forget xv xli xloadimage goto flag graeme gill
steve ecf toronto edu \( steve kotsopoulos \) subject x intel based unix frequently asked questions faq summary x options intel based unix \( sysv 386 , 386bsd , linux , mach \) reply steve ecf toronto edu organization university toronto , engineering computing facility expires tue , 1 jun 1993 04 00 00 gmt lines 530 archive name intel unix x faq last modified 30 mar 1993 note major organization \( replacement \) frequently asked questions x386 faq list article includes answers \) options x software intel based unix system \? 1 free options 2 commercial options ii \) xfree86 get \? 3 xfree86 \? 4 oss supported \? 5 video hardware supported \? 6 accelerated boards \? 7 n't xfree86 support 16 color vga modes \? 8 hardware software requirements \? 9 get source xfree86 \? 10 get binaries xfree86 \? iv \) general things know running xfree86 \? 11 installation directories 12 configuration files 13 determining vga dot clocks monitor modes 14 rebuilding server link kit v \) os specific things know running xfree86 \? 15 svr4 16 svr3 17 386bsd 18 linux 19 mach vi \) things know building xfree86 source \? vii \) anything special building clients xfree86 \? 20 bsd compatibility library 21 ansiccoptions article include answers general x questions , since already covered x faq regularly posted david b lewis faq craft uunet uu net anything add change faq let know \( especially problem someone else able help \) send changes steve ecf toronto edu , please put somewhere subject line mail filter put correct mail folder please ask questions answered faq time respond individually instead , post question net , send question answer together get frequently asked questions x intel based unix \( answers \) \) options x software intel based unix system \? 1 free options best option xfree86 , enhanced version x386 1 2 version x386 slower performance , difficult compile information obtain xfree86 listed x386 port x11 server system v 386 done thomas roell \( roell sgcs com \) supports wide variety svga boards 2 major free versions x386 1 1 based x11r4 , x386 1 2 included mit 's x11r5 distribution \( ie n't need patch mit source \) x386 1 3 current commercial offering sgcs \( see \) 2 commercial options 1 \) metro link 2213 w road beach , fl \( 305 \) 970 7353 fax \( 305 \) 970 email sales metrolink com summary os qnx , svr3 , svr4 , sco , , , desqview x , , isc , solaris , pyramid , sunos hw ega , vga , svga , tiga , targa , 8514 , mach , s3 , wd , , matrox , graphics , motif , openlook xview , imaging extension , xv video extension , audio drivers , multi media 2 \) sgcs \( graphics consulting services \) 894 lane cupertino , ca 95014 \( 800 \) 645 , \( 408 \) 255 fax \( 408 \) 255 email info sgcs com ! mips ! zok ! info summary os svr3 2 , svr4 hw 8514 \( ati ultra \) , s3 \( diamond stealth \) , svga motif , dual headed server 3 \) consensys corporation 1301 pat rd universal city , tx phone 1 800 388 1896 fax 1 416 940 email info consensys com summary os consensys v4 2 , version unix system v release 4 2 hw x11r4 server support vga , svga moolit , motif , x11r5 clients 4 \) santa cruz operation , inc p box 1900 santa cruz , california \( 408 \) 425 , \( 800 \) sco unix , fax \( 408 \) 458 email info sco com summary os odt 1 1 , odt 2 0 , sco unix 3 hw x11r4 server support svga , 8514 , s3 , , , , assorted local bus \( see sco hardware guide actual card vendors \) motif 5 \) answer software consulting p box columbus , ohio 614 263 email sales com summary os coherent 4 0 greater hw works vesa compliant video note commercial vendors \( including os vendors describing bundled software \) welcome submit summary information summary information ii \) xfree86 get \? 3 xfree86 \? xfree86 enhanced version x386 1 2 , distributed x11r5 release consists many bug fixes , speed improvements , enhancements highlights enhancements 1 \) speedup package glenn lai integral part xfree86 , selectable run time via xconfig file speedups require et4000 based svga , others require virtual screen width 1024 speedups suitable configuration selected default high quality et4000 board \( vram \) , yield 40 improvement xstones benchmark x386 1 2 2 \) packages jim tsillas included default operating mode speedup selected mode equivalent performance x386 1 1b \( x11r4 \) , approximately 20 faster x386 1 2 3 \) support , compile time selectable server , clients , support svr3 2 svr4 svr4 0 4 compatibility , local connections sco xsight odt clients supported 4 \) drivers ati trident tvga8900c tvga9000 svga chipsets refer files readme ati readme trident details ati trident drivers 5 \) support compressed bitmap fonts added \( thomas 's code contrib directory export lcs mit edu \) 6 \) type1 font code mit contrib tape included , compile time selectable contributed type1 fonts contrib directory export lcs mit edu 7 \) new configuration method allows server 's drivers font renderers source binary distributions 8 \) integrated support 386bsd , mach , linux 9 \) monochrome version server run generic vga cards included following key features added release xfree86 1 2 \( xfree86 1 1 \) 1 \) monochrome server enhanced bank switching available svga memory allow virtual screens \( see x386 \( 1 \) manual page information \) 2 \) support hercules mono card added monochrome server , ability support two headed server one vga , one hercules far tested svr4 \( also reported work linux \) 3 \) svr3 shared libraries , tested isc svr3 2 2 3 0 1 4 \) support svr4 2 \( special considerations consider , due new usl bugs see readme svr4 file information \) 5 \) support ps 2 mice , logitech \( versions devices previously compatible \) 6 \) new tutorial develop correct video card monitor timing data , written eric raymond \( derived previous documentation lot experimentation \) 7 \) greatly improved support international keyboards , including implementation compose key functionality found many vendor servers \( see \( 1 \) manual page information \) 8 \) accuracy server detects svga pixel clocks improved , timings stored accuracies 0 1 mhz users may want consider removing existing clocks line xconfig file probing using new server 9 \) many enhancements error handling parsing xconfig configuration file error messages much informative intuitive , validation done many new options enabled xconfig file \( see x386 \( 1 \) manual page information format file \) plus number small things refer file source distribution full details also included tutorial monitor timing eric raymond , current x386 mode database sample xdm configuration david wexelblat 4 oss supported \? xfree86 supports svr4 2 consensys v4 2 svr4 0 , dell , esix , isc , , mst , consensys , uhc svr3 isc 2 2 3 0 , 2 2 linux , mach 386 , 386bsd 0 1 bsd 386 supported , work active bsd 386 person greg de note esix 3 2d sco supported yet , anyone feel free submit patches interested tackling , send mail xfree86 physics su oz au 5 video hardware supported \? time , xfree86 1 2 supports following svga chipsets tseng et4000 tseng et3000 paradise pvga1 western digital wd90c00 , , \( pvga1 , use driver \) genoa gvga trident tvga8900c , tvga9000 ati 18800 , 28800 supported 256 color monochrome modes , exception ati chipsets , supported 256 color mode monochrome server also supports generic vga cards , using 64k video memory single bank , hercules card et3000 , 64k video memory supported monochrome server , gvga tested 64k appears svga card manufacturers going non traditional mechanisms selecting pixel clock frequencies avoid modify server accommodate schemes xfree86 1 2 adds support using external program select pixel clock allows programs written new mechanisms discovered refer readme file information programs work , need write one develop program , xfree86 team would interested including future xfree86 releases purchasing new hardware purpose using xfree86 , suggested purchase et4000 based board orchid prodesigner iis avoid recent diamond boards xfree86 work , diamond wo n't provide programming details fact , xfree86 project actively supporting new diamond products , long policies remain effect contributions code accepted \( potential liabilities \) would like see change , tell diamond people asked xfree86 would work local bus eisa video cards theoretically , means communication cpu video card irrelevant xfree86 compatibility could isa , eisa , local bus matter chipset video card unfortunately , developers n't lot access eisa vlb machines , largely untested theory however , yet see reports things working one buses several reports xfree86 working fine 6 accelerated boards \? time , support xfree86 accelerated boards like s3 , ati ultra \( 8514 \) , tiga , etc support available commercial products sgcs metrolink \( svr3 svr4 \) s3 server available 386bsd linux contact hasty netcom com 386bsd jon robots ox ac uk linux beta 8514 server available linux contact martin cs unc edu jon robots ox ac uk note servers part xfree86 7 n't xfree86 support 16 color vga modes \? reason supported way vga implements 16 color modes 256 color modes , byte frame buffer memory contains 1 pixel 16 color modes implemented bit planes byte frame buffer memory contains 1 bit 8 pixels , four planes mit frame buffer code designed deal vga handled 16 color modes packing 2 4 bit pixels byte , mit code could modified support \( already may i'm sure \) vga way things , complete new frame buffer implementation required beta testers looking , nothing yet available project 8 hardware software requirements \? obviously , supported svga board os required run x efficiently , 12 16mb memory considered minimum various binary releases take 10 40mb disk space , depending os \( e g whether supports shared libraries \) build sources , least 80mb free disk space required , although 120mb considered comfortable lower bound 9 get source xfree86 \? source patches current version \( 1 2 , based x11r5 mit \) , available via anonymous ftp export lcs mit edu \( contrib xfree86 \) ftp physics su oz au \( xfree86 \) ftp win tue nl \( pub xfree86 \) \( rest faq , 3 location called ftp \) refer readme file specified directory information files need get build distribution 10 get binaries xfree86 \? binaries available via anonymous ftp ftp physics su oz au svr4 binaries xfree86 svr4 ftp win tue nl svr4 binaries pub xfree86 svr4 ucsb edu svr4 binaries pub svr4 xfree86 bradley edu svr4 binaries pub xfree86 svr4 utexas edu svr3 \( isc \) binaries pub isc ftp prz tu berlin de svr3 \( isc \) binaries pub pc isc xfree86 tsx 11 mit edu linux binaries pub linux packages x11 agate berkeley edu 386bsd binaries pub 386bsd 0 1 ports xfree86 ftp cs uwm edu mach binaries i386 ensure getting xfree86 1 2 sites may archive older releases well binary distribution contain readme file describes files need take archive , compile time option selections made building distribution iv \) general things know running xfree86 \? 11 installation directories top level installation directory specified projectroot \( usr x386 , default \) variable config site def binaries , include files , libraries installed projectroot bin , include , lib changed rebuilding sources , modified via symbolic links oss support directory nonstandard , chosen way allow xfree86 installed alongside commercial vendor supplied x implementation 12 configuration files xfree86 server reads configuration file \( xconfig \) startup search path , contents syntax file documented server , consulted asking questions 13 determining vga dot clocks monitor modes david e wexelblat \( dwex mtgzfs3 att com \) maintains database known clock settings vga cards monitor settings database installed usr x386 lib x11 etc txt , source tree mit server ddx x386 etc database also available \( latest copy \) , kept export lcs mit edu contrib x386 z , updated occasionally obtain copy database might settings need create new settings , please send david inclusion database n't help , doc \( eric raymond \) file xfree86 contains tutorials come timings may helpful start settings almost work , use description get right , send information david wexelblat inclusion database note old program supported , completely unnecessary need determine dot clock values new board , remove line xconfig file \( present \) , start server server probe clocks print use values put line xconfig file , necessary , speed starting server future 14 rebuilding server link kit installed server binary link kit , possible reconfigure drivers font renderers server fully explained readme file available link kit v \) os specific things know running xfree86 \? first , server must installed root \( mode 4755 \) 15 svr4 wo n't xterm run properly \? kernel built consem module , define consem environment otherwise xterm wo n't run csh users use consem no' esix console driver patch known cause problems xfree86 recommended patch installed alternatively keymap fixed xmodmap 16 svr3 make sure look ftp readme isc , 's running 17 386bsd make sure look ftp readme 386bsd also , separate 386bsd faq maintained richard rich rice edu latest version available file xfree86 1 2 386bsd faq following ftp sites agate berkeley edu pub 386bsd 0 1 ports xfree86 1 2 wuarchive wustl edu 386bsd 0 1 ports xfree86 1 2 univ fr pub 386bsd 0 1 ports xfree86 1 2 18 linux must running linux 0 greater , 4 1 gcc jump libraries installed make sure binaries x386 , , xload xterm setuid root kernel n't tcp support compiled , 'll run server x pn default startup configuration assumes tcp available , change two files usr x386 bin startx usr x386 lib x11 xdm xservers , removing pn argument x386 make sure dev console either link dev major number 4 , minor number 0 also note dev console owned user running x , xterm permit console output redirection xdm properly change owner , startx wo n't running xdm rc local , need provide tty , example xdm dev console detailed information , please read file readme present distribution tsx 11 mit edu 19 mach make sure look ftp readme mach vi \) things know building xfree86 source \? section removed faq , since fully explained ftp readme os specific please look files information building xfree86 vii \) anything special building clients xfree86 \? 20 bsd compatibility library lot clients make use bsd functions like bcopy \( \) , etc default configuration files set link libxbsd contains emulation bcopy \( \) , \( \) , \( \) , \( \) , random \( \) , seed \( \) better way providing 'b' functions include x11 h source files call h provides macro definitions terms sysv functions linking vendor supplied library calls functions , link libxbsd 21 ansiccoptions something added allow developer get rid ansi ness defined default ccoptions without rewrite entire ccoptions line example , stock mit , 'd see something like ccoptions ansi o2 fwritable strings get rid ansi ness , developer would put ccoptions o2 fwritable strings imakefile change , would see default ansiccoptions ansi ccoptions o2 fwritable strings developer would put imakefile ansiccoptions get rid ansi ness \( many x clients die horrible death ansi \) effect even dramatic practice , ccoptions actually quite complex issue one must add \( ansiccoptions \) ' passcdebugflags definition xfree86 contact information ongoing development planning support coordinated xfree86 core team time core team consists original gang four david dawes dawes physics su oz au glenn lai glenn cs utexas edu jim tsillas jtsilla damon ccs northeastern edu david wexelblat dwex mtgzfs3 att com supporting non sysv operating systems robert baron robert baron ernst mach cs cmu edu mach rich rich rice edu 386bsd kodak com linux e mail sent xfree86 physics su oz au reach core team thanks people already sent corrections additions , especially david wexelblat \( one major contributors updates \) steve kotsopoulos p eng mail steve ecf toronto edu systems analyst bitnet steve ecf utoronto bitnet engineering computing facility uucp uunet ! utai ! ecf ! steve university toronto phone \( 416 \) 978
lee sq sq com \( liam r e quin \) subject open look gui frequently asked questions organization softquad inc , toronto , canada expires 10 jun 1993 06 02 12 gmt lines 1231 frequently asked questions open look graphical user interface question n't , please try \( least \) man openwin man xnews man 7 xview looking appropriate manuals listed bibliography posting comp windows open look , comp windows x alt toolkits xview newsgroups corresponding mailing lists special notes updated faq recently announced openwindows 4 , due ship later year yes , sun moving motif , along cose motif move new motif , open look ui features added yes , openwindows 4 use dps instead news news dead means tnt dead , xview olit supported , probably enhanced next release n't know source release xview 3 1 cose environment include least sun 's deskset , ported motif look calendar manager mailtool , least yes , new mailtool mime compliant frequently asked questions x11 posted comp windows x monthly version revision 1 48 last posted version 1 46 contents \( rn trn use control g go next topic \) subject terminology open look , openwindows , x11 , xview , \( mo \) olit , motif subject window managers olwm , olvwm subject openwindows , terminals , displays subject configuration files getting started openwindows subject key bindings , cut paste subject applications finding subject deskset , calendar manager , etc subject trouble shooting strange error messages subject trouble shooting wo n't let type subject trouble shooting authorized use display subject trouble shooting common problems subject trouble shooting xview problems subject fonts subject environment variables subject get \? ftp , implementations , etc subject bibliography books , manuals , journals , papers , beer mats subject getting file , revision history , recent changes subject terminology open look , openwindows , x11 , xview , olit , moolit , motif open look \? open look specification graphical user interface \( gui \) gui determines feel' system shape windows , buttons scroll bars , resize things , edit files , etc open look gui specified , developed maintained jointly sun microsystems \( usl \? \) see also bibliography openwindows \? openwindows windowing environment conforms open look graphical user interface specifications 's compatible x11 window system mit well \( currently \) sun 's news sunview , programs written systems comes sun also system v release 4 certain vendors openwindows sometimes also called openwin xnews , program used start main executable , respectively called 'open , terms either wrong apply something else commerical openwindows source licence costs 5 , 000 server , plus 25 , 000 deskset , another 40 , 000 tooltalk current versions openwindows various platforms sunos 4 1 1 sun 3 2 0 solaris 1 x \( sunos 4 1 x \) sparc 3 0 solaris 2 0 \( sunos 5 \) sparc 3 0 1 see also mixing x11 openwindows get \? olit , xview tnt \? toolkits programmers use developing programs conform open look specifications see bibliography documentation individual toolkits 's brief summary olit 's open look intrinsics toolkit x window system used widget set , probably easiest people already x11 xt programmers learn could buy source , although n't get version sun ship sun includes olit library openwindows \( q v \) also often included system v release 4 written c release olit openwindows 3 0 olit 3 0 olit support passed usl \( division , owned novell \) , replaced moolit \( q v \) note nature xt , probably want need olit source order develop large application anything else uses see proceedings 1991 x technical conference xview sun 's toolkit x11 , written c xview similar programmer interface sunview 's even shell script help source code sunview xview xview often said easiest toolkit learn familiar x windows xview toolkit included openwindows , full source available anonymous ftp export lcs mit edu \( elsewhere \) current version xview sun 3 0 despite rumours contrary even within sun xview toolkit dropped sun xview included next release openwindows , unlike news hand , xview toolkit likely receive much attention sun future olit news toolkit \( tnt \) object oriented programming system based postscript language news tnt implements many open look interface components required build user interface application 's currently included openwindows current version tnt sun 3 1 release 3 contains incompatibilities 1 0 tnt 2 0 , sun committed supporting api , least stop news support time later year replace display postscript wail might ask committed means context answer seems means absolutely nothing sun currently asserts committed olit , however c user interface toolkit \( uit \) consists object oriented c class library top xview tool generate code devguide 3 gil files uit also includes features simplify event management use postscript color said compatible openwindows v2 v3 , presumably v3 0 1 , since release mentions works solaris 2 uit official sun supported product ongoing project various people within sun found export lcs mit edu mit contrib directory tar z \( use binary mode ! \) motif fit \? n't \) motif alternative graphical user interface developed osf feel' reminiscent microsoft windows os 2 presentation manager non commercial motif toolkits available , although motif source sold reasonably cheaply osf although motif currently available platforms openwindows , open look gui almost certainly used many machines , simply sun \( \) large installed base sun 's cd ware volume 2 contains improving motif applications converting olit \) also notes olit demo , openwinhome demo moolit \? moolit version olit usl lets users choose motif open look ui feel run time part system v release 4 2 contact , jo usl com , \( 908 \) 522 display postscript thing \? sun adobe agreed sun include dps extension x next release openwindows dps essentially badly designed hack top slow level 2 postscript interpreter intended give small subset functionality news whilst simultaneously harder use , understand real advantage news manual much smaller , generally less complete dps also available kinds machine performance rs 6000 suitable interactive work like sparcstation remains seen note whereas x news fonts shared subsystems , dps extension x make type 1 postscript fonts available ordinary x11 programs like atm pc regard \( least one third party version make fonts available , however \) subject window managers olwm , olvwm olwm olvwm \? window managers window manager part x window system \( e g x11 \) responsible deciding lay windows screen , managing user 's interaction windows olwm standard open look window manager 's included openwindows \( q v \) implementations , also get source ftp , since sun donated olvwm version olwm manages \( hence name \) shows little map screen , currently displayed area represented little rectangle move around dragging rectangle arrow keys lets run several clients \( applications \) move display around one olvwm derived openwindows 3 0 olwm scott oaks need xview 3 0 compile get olvwm ftp site export lcs mit edu \( contrib directory three patches \) use favorite window manager openwindows instead olwm \? yes use twm , example , mwm , wo n't able use pin feature olwm , \( probably \) wo n't see windows use display certain messages use twm , 'll want use f delete function menus get rid programs n't button run olwm twm , put home target f delete target icon usr include x11 bitmaps alternatively , try add menu window managed twm tvtwm menu f menu ol menu menu ol menu quit f delete mwm , double click menu icon left title bar dismiss pop window \( told \) see manual page window manager \( twm , etc \) subject openwindows , terminals , displays use olwm olvwm without openwindows x terminal \? openwindows xnews server combines sunview , news \( postscript \) x11 means run programs compiled systems unfortunately , means openwindows programs need either news sunview support , thus wo n't run x terminal includes pageview particular use olwm olvwm \( see \) x terminal non open windows display , open look clients \( e g olit xview ones \) work perfectly well may find get complaints fonts found , see fonts section running window manager built ncd terminal , may problems input focus setting input true terminal 's file usr lib x11 xdm may may help subject configuration files getting started openwindows configuration files need know \? xinitrc first time run openwindows , xinitrc file created login directory \( home \) already exists , might edit somewhat 's simplest move old x11 files another directory , merge old new files site uses xdm , use xsession instead xinitrc , since xdm n't look xinitrc file openwin init , openwin menu openwin sys optional files create home directory , depending version olwm olvwm use look openwinhome lib \( normally usr openwin lib \) files without leading copy want change may need edit xinitrc get recognized x terminal , want run console window \( cmdtool c , shelltool c , xterm c \) chuck 's program system output directed instead writing screen note openwin sys executed unless edit xinitrc xdefaults put x windows resource specifications particular , good idea include least openwindows true input true allow non icccm compliant programs receive input even forget ask props , program runs select default root menu olwm olvwm , writes choices xdefaults n't put comments xdefaults , since deletes startup ps news user profile file , read openwindows \( actually xnews \) startup documented news programming manual , near back useful thing put postscript code change keyboard repeat rate , although must careful , since syntax error postscript means xnews either start get broken strange ways news manual gives code incorrect insufficient warning things file rarely work openwindows 2 3 note mouse speed best set xinitrc xset see man page xset \( man xset , xset help \) information 's home startup ps look like want delay third second \( microseconds \) , repeat rate twenty keys per second \( 30000 microseconds repeats \) openwindows 3 'll experiment bit delay keys sent , thus n't include time process key , probably higher 4 110 10 51 gti injection \) , openwindows 3 n't want demos see p xxxii news toolkit reference manual \? false def begin 0 def 0 30000 def note 30000 differ greatly end must also user ps file directory , like news 3 0 3 0 tnt 3 0 pop force repeat ps change parameters , test without restarting openwindows server like psh startup ps welcome x11 news version3 psh welcome x11 news version3 send press control also either two files \( startup ps user ps \) make root window retained , postscript drawing background wo n't erased move windows retained true put note may increase amount memory used news server \( xnews \) dramatically see also trouble shooting wo n't let type trouble shooting easy way edit xdefaults \? environment variables configure open look left handed mouse keyboard \? use xmodmap change mouse buttons , prepared one two occasional surprises see also man 7 xview list change , least xview programs openwindows 2 0 , use set mouse mappings let sunview handle status returned tell whether server running sunview put xinitrc eval xmodmap e pointer 1 2 3 input defaults else xmodmap e pointer 3 2 1 fi get screen go blank system idle \? run etc rc local 's boring effective screen saver see `man solaris 2 'll need copy older system , 's supplied add new file etc rc2 make system run automatically subject key bindings , cut paste cut paste xterm openwindows programs \? go xterm textedit \( say \) select text want copy dragging select mouse button xterm press copy xterm \( key l6 , meta c \( o'reilly xview manual gets wrong \) move textedit window , press paste \( l8 meta v \) n't work , see trouble shooting cut paste go way , textedit xterm select text textedit need use copy move xterm window press adjust \( middle mouse button \) also use copy cut paste buttons copy paste boring short cuts available \? quick copy within textedit , mailtool , etc click select get text want copied text go press hold paste \( cut \) button select text want copy move 'll see 's underlined crossed , appropriate \( jed demo goes grey \) let go paste \( cut \) button text underlined crossed appears insert drag drop move selection select text want copy move , dragging multiple clicking select adjust mouse button put mouse pointer anywhere within selection press hold select mouse button , move mouse pointer little right 'll see cursor changes first 3 letters text \( icon \) still holding select , move mouse point want drop text may see mouse pointer change rifle sight target , show 's ok drop things let go select , text moved works text fields dialogue boxes well text subwindows drag drop copy selection using drag drop move selection , except must hold control key well select mouse button default key bindings textedit elsewhere \? see man page textedit \( 1 \) general , editing moving commands go opposite direction shifted e g ctrl w deletes word , ctrl w deletes word right insert point meta include file meta f find selection \( forward backward \) ctrl start line ctrl back word ctrl e end line ctrl forward word ctrl w delete word ctrl u delete start end line ctrl return move end start document see o'reilly xview reference manual list default keys see also olwm olvwm manual page put \? documented \? see manual page shelltool subject applications finding contact sunsoft \( sun \) ask catalyst open look guide , lists 200 pages applications , also huge catalyst listing products suns , updated six monthly sun 's free cd roms contain demo versions several popular open look applications often simply contact vendor concerned license upgraded demo , receive full product documentation produces cd rom newsprint users , printer 's , contains newsprint drivers variety printers plotters , well 600 scaleable fonts license separate faq posting comp windows open look lists number free commercial mail lee sq com copy , including open look ui application list subject faster reply subject deskset , mailtool , calendar manager , etc tty based interface cm \( calendar manager \) \? yes , cm delete , cm insert cm lookup manual pages man cm delete n't work gives strange messages , see trouble shooting strange error messages , arrange signature included outgoing mail \? best way cd cp usr lib chmod w edit \( use vi , textedit , whatever prefer \) add key right \( 3 \) filter cat signature \( might need change home \) pressing r3 insert signature file subject fonts openwindows support type 1 postscript fonts \? yes , either solaris 2 0 2 1 \( i'm sure \) , yet , words framemaker utility import , i'm told 57 fonts supplied openwindows fully hinted , though , comparing microsoft windows apple truetype fonts interesting f3 font format described publication sun group , listed bibliography documentation version also available sun buy f3 fonts , , , probably major newsprint software supports type 1 fonts improving font rendering time although sun type renderer \( \) pretty fast , 's fast loading bitmap \) pre generate bitmap fonts sizes use lot , also alter access font cache parameters lot memory might want increase font cache size psh welcome x11 news version3 psh say type line 300 's server using 300 kbytes 1024 check 1024 see pp news 3 0 programmer 's guide need say psh postscript packages loaded see psh man page making bitmap fonts faster startup mkdir home cd home 20 openwinhome lib fonts creating bembo20 afb b bembo20 afb bembo20 afb bembo20 fb chars parameter greater number characters supplied ls bembo20 afb bembo20 fb list ff \( encoding latin \) cat compat list file directory xset fp xset fp rehash want server see new font directory every time , add directory environment variable one start files , e g login profile converting font formats \( , etc \) also use fonts x11 server , converting bitmap \( x11 bdf format \) first licence forbids using fonts another machine , unless newsprint n't use printing said use generate bdf files compile bdftopcf use \( distribution \) convert tex pk fonts x11 bdf format , use either x11 also use der mouse 's getbdf get bdf fonts running x display server ftp larry mcrcim mcgill edu \( 132 206 1 1 \) x getbdf xview olit fonts 100 dpi n't precisely , various text fonts , typewriter sans , available 100 dpi , fact scalable openwindows glyph fonts bitmaps , n't scale well subject trouble shooting strange error messages manual entry cm lookup man n't seem find openwindows commands , even though running openwindows , try setting manpath environment variable manpath openwinhome share man usr man export manpath setenv manpath openwinhome share man usr man csh users openwinhome usr openwin systems window window creation failed get new fd window base frame passed parent window environment cannot create base frame process aborted messages come sunview programs sunview earlier windowing system suns , networked sunview programs still around usr bin , names openwindows counterparts almost certainly want run programs openwinhome instead set path openwinhome bin \( openwin bin xview openwindows 2 \) come bin \( usr bin , 're \) , 'll get sunview versions mailtool , cmdtool , shelltool , etc memory fault core dumped get binder , binder suddenly , get following patches 02 binder 03 03 tooltalk trouble compiling xt , xmu olit programs get wmshellwidgetclass using openwindows 3 0 \( x11r4 based xt \) , contact local sun office request following patches 02 4 1 x openwindows 3 0 libxt jumbo patch 03 4 1 x openwindows 3 0 undefined symbols using shared libxmu ca n't install patch , workaround add u get wmshellwidgetclass u get applicationshellwidgetclass link \( ld cc \) line alternative add assert cflags makefile , even imake tmpl subject trouble shooting wo n't let type try type programs , get beeps nothing happens good idea include least openwindows true input true xdefaults file , allow non icccm compliant programs receive input even forget ask see next item editing xdefaults subject trouble shooting cut paste working ca n't paste xterm xview \( including sun deskset \) programs openwindows 2 , need add following either home xdefaults file , openwinhome lib app defaults xterm instead xterm vt100 translations override key l6 select set \( clipboard \) n key l8 insert selection \( clipboard \) must move mouse ending selection pressing l8 \( paste key \) ! openwindows 3 , already app defaults file , n't working , check xfilesearchpath set usr openwin lib n n't , either set copy merge lines openwinhome lib app defaults xterm usr lib x11 app defaults xterm see also environment variables version automatically puts xterm selection onto clipboard xterm vt100 translations override n ctrl meta insert selection \( primary , cut \) n ctrl meta select end \( primary , cut , clipboard \) n keypress l8 insert selection \( clipboard \) note sure n end line , must following spaces , signs showing faq file altered must also removed ! using x11r5 , may find adding lines key start extend \( \) select end \( primary , clipboard , cut \) n kill selection \( \) n keypress l8 line make \( cut \) work cut key ! alter home xdefaults instead , must use x calls resource name xterm vt100 translations ca n't paste xview \( including sun deskset \) programs xterm n't sun l keys left keyboard , use meta x , meta c meta v cut , coy paste respectively change keys adding following two lines xdefaults file , edited wish \( values shown defaults \) openwindows copy c meta , l6 openwindows paste , v meta , l8 lists resources manual page xview , also blue book volume 7 , xview reference o'reilly , also olwm olvwm manual pages always get piece text press paste \( l8 , meta v \) remove file tmp shelf see helps see also next item cut copy paste n't work \( openwindows \) oh dear use ps grep xv check sv xv sel svc running either root started , depending whether started openwindows openwin logging xdm , start dies , check tmp sv xv sel svc restarting may need root remove , reboot workstation check space tmp \( use df tmp \) , also see lot files names like tmp tty txt several hundred , cut paste may take long times quit deskset tools mailtool , cm \( calendar \) , start terminal emulator remove tmp tty txt tmp text files still 's simplest quit openwin start , cut paste broken , starts working carry note files tmp owned might use another worker comrade , n't remove without checking first ! subject trouble shooting authorized use display get error messages look like xlib connection 0 0 refused server xlib internal error connection authorization check error ca n't open display try , machine running openwindows x11 , xhost machine machine computer ran command failed want let users run programs machine , using display , type bizarre looking xhost `hostname` \( xhost , name workstation \) lets user access display openwindows 3 0 also use xauth , programmer 's guide describes chapter 8 , p 101 secure also check man page \( 5 \) stop users accessing framebuffer directly ! also note sun patch openwindows 3 0 sunos 4 1 1 fix serious security problem available local sun answer center well anonymous ftp ftp uu net 192 48 96 2 system sun dist fix filename checksum 01 tar z 5 x terminal , may setup menu lets change disable list hosts access display start getting message 've logged overnight , might job 's removing unix sockets tmp used communicate server display n't hostname , empty system administrator change script skip sockets subject trouble shooting common problems get console error messages screen n't go away \( sun 3 4 \) refresh makes messages vanish , new ones come along later , need run xterm c xinitrc , start one background choose save workspace workspace utilities menu better still , pick run get export lcs mit edu contrib directory monitor console open , flash icon beep message appears 's easy configure refresh workspace utilities menu n't make messages , go away sun frame buffer two screens move mouse right hand \( default \) edge screen onto whole new \( monochrome \) display , called 0 1 see man page openwin shell script checks , 's dev cgfour0 , openwin dev dev cgfour0 dev dev bwtwo0 running x11 openwindows 2 , might need add xinitrc startup file \( eval display unix 0 1 olvwm display unix 0 1 \) later releases olwm olvwm automatically also run switcher e 0 get rid messages also , see note , easy way editing xdefaults \? use , appears default root menu starts , property editor write xdefaults removing comments applies changes keep comments using comment instead ! , example , comment font italic 37 get file manager use emacs instead textedit \? set default editor sh c exec emacs font 18 file \( change font prefer smaller one \) run openwindows inverse video \? tends work openwindows 2 3 0 , various ways , including using bg fg options 're using openwindows 2 sun 3 , probably best \( short upgrading workstation sparc ! \) use xterm instead cmdtool n't flat check boxes work \? known bug may make guide 's output dump core use workaround edit guide output , 's guide 's output 's broken , actual check box code applies versions devguide devguide 3 0 're still using ancient devguide , upgrade soon possible new one fantastic ! leave openwindows , screen goes blank mouse cursor stays screen try running clear colormap helps , put last line shell script use start openwindows \( e g \) use snapshot , system crashes , server hangs , something bug related systems work round use screen dump program , xwd , xv 2 21 xgrabsc function keys stopped working \? keys changed sunxk sunxk respectively openwindows 3 applications must recompiled , might able use xmodmap public domain program change keyboard layout back type shelltool cmdtool textedit , get sunview version see trouble shooting strange error messages \( see also next item \) mixing x11 openwindows \( see also next item \) note openwindows 3 0 includes x11r4 core distribution \( patch level 18 \) , contrib directory notes apply openwindows 2 0 , although could also sort thing openwindows 3 0 x11r5 install x11 libraries usr lib x11 openwindows x11r4 x11r5 , 're compatible respect put x11 binaries \( example \) usr bin x11 put usr bin x11 last path , get openwindows versions programs instead x11 ones appropriate , although matter preference event , put openwindows bin directory first see preceding item details bin \( usr bin , 're directory sunos \) earlier path openwinhome bin xview , 'll get sunview programs instead openwindows ones ! set ld library path usr openwin lib last , x11 library directory n't matter openwindows 3 0 , older versions 'll get error messages x11 programs n't messages generally harmless \( see next item \) , although xdm core dumps n't right set openwinhome directory containing openwindows n't usr openwin see also environment variables \( especially xfilesearchpath \) get error messages screen ld libx11 4 found set ld library path usr openwin also use x11 , use usr lib usr usr openwin lib put shell script profile , use openwinhome usr openwin lib instead usr openwin bin sh csh different launch get ld map heap error \( 9 \) dev zero system needs patched look openwinhome lib install patch n't answerbook run \? must running openwindows use answerbook wo n't run x11 \( x terminal anything else \) uses news draw postscript text pictures using openwindows 3 0 , need use openwindows 3 0 compatible navigator 's called navigator ow3 answerbook cd rom answerbook users using openwindows 3 0 , replace navigator navigator ow3 altogether \( rename old one first satisfy sense paranoia ! \) navigator ow3 binary also cd ware vol 2 note data files postscript , look viewer \( q v \) n't fish \? fixed version available ftp ftp eng auburn edu 131 204 10 91 pub z properties choice disabled window menu \? n't implemented yet many programs respond properties key \( l3 \) , though , pop menu properties file completion c shell broken cmdtool sadly true , use shelltool xterm instead 's fine also works run command tool remote machine fixed openwindows 3 0 1 shipped solaris 2 run olit programs , widgets red ! release 3 olit added operation action widgets selected via keyboard currently selected item highlighted red \( \) show input focus disable places , add home xdefaults file textedit change color using \( example \) input green list background color see man page resources \( 3w \) , start olit 3 widget set reference manual included openwindows 3 programmer documentation meanwhile contact distributor ask patch id 30 , olit 3 0 jumbo patch run several programs , colors screen change move different window ! \( colormap flashing \) becasue hardware display colors time however , minimise effect following procedure start applications colors wish reserve run cmap compact save create file put line cmap compact init near start start file \( xinitrc \) exit restart window system cmap compact init push colors end colormap reserves also note control l2 locks colors current window , control l4 unlocks described olwm manual page uses wrong colors , makes colormap flash \( see \) problem reported people reason running motif window manager \( mwm \) openwindows try running pageview like openwinhome bin openwinhome bin pageview openwinhome bin discard xdm breaks things command tool n't like run without unix use etc start command tools well sunview applications may need run , exec usr bin traffic xdm wo n't set necessary environment variables note mit xdm starts x server root , security hole openwindows use openwindows 3 0 xdm aware users access files start unix processes ass root function keys 11 12 stopped working openwindows 3 0 , x11 names \( \) keys changed sunxk sunxk code uses recompiled , might able get away xmodmap e sunxk subject trouble shooting xview problems section xview faq appears , promised , n't reached note also usenet newsgroup , alt toolkits xview , although n't wide distribution order one two articles per month also look faq comp windows x set font individual scrolling list items \? panel list font takes int row number xv opaque font handle panel list fonts take null terminated list xv opaque font handles easy way make entire list fixed width font make sure always specify panel list font insert new row list , write convenience function insert row \( list , row , string \) hides nasty bits keep xview pop window displayed button pressed \? button callback , xv set \( button , panel notify status , xv error , null \) keep window visible might also need investigate menu notify status attribute make xview button look pressed \? call panel begin preview \( \) panel cancel preview \( \) documented er xview 3 source openwindows 3 imake n't work properly greg earle 's patch , applied openwinhome note edit lib config sun cf afterwards get right \( 1 sunos 4 1 2 , example \) edited patch little , bugs mine lee sq com \) bin xmkmf orig wed sep 18 07 02 02 1991 bin xmkmf tue aug 6 00 39 20 1991 30 , 34 n openwinhome ! args openwinhome lib config else 30 , 34 n openwinhome ! args openwinhome lib config ' ' else lib config site def orig wed sep 18 01 26 19 1991 lib config site def tue aug 6 00 44 37 1991 0 1 , 7 define bindir \( openwinhome \) bin define libdir \( openwinhome \) lib define \( openwinhome \) share include define \( file , \) install file \( install \) c \( \) file define note patch new , marked line liam subject environment variables environment variables , plausible values use list n't take account local changes might made , course list openwindows 3 0 differences openwindows 2 0 marked , 've added comments users x11r4 x11r5 , display name x windows display use 0 0 \( local machine , one actually running x11 xnews \) 0 1 \( machines second , monochrome screen \) machine running unix 0 0 \( machines \) \( may need xhost machine let programs machines use display see also trouble shooting , see section xauth openwindows version 3 programmer 's guide , pp \) see also console messages , trouble shooting xnews searches fonts usr openwin lib fonts \( also use xset fp dir add directory font path , may xset fp rehash afterwards fine openwindows , many x11 servers font problems \) helppath xview looks press help key \( f1 \) usr openwin lib locale usr openwin lib help \( sunos 4 0 , openwindows 2 0 , omit first entry , sites using local c usa \) ld library path look find shared c libraries usr lib usr usr openwin lib usr cc \( usr cc lib entry needed use c programs \) openwinhome openwindows lives usr openwin keyboard , mouse serial devices use instead console \( n't set normal use dev dev mouse \) path shell searches programs run \( openwinhome \) bin \( openwinhome \) bin xview usr local bin home bin usr ucb usr bin usr bin x11 usr hosts \( certainly want change example ! \( openwinhome \) bin xview openwindows 3 0 \) xfilesearchpath programs look app defaults files usr openwin lib n \( set automatically openwin openwindows 3 0 \) might want use usr lib x11 n , perhaps , separated , example \( sh users \) xfilesearchpath openwinhome lib n usr lib x11 n export xfilesearchpath use x11r5 , might instead want usr lib x11 l n c usr lib x11 l n c usr lib x11 n c usr lib x11 l n usr lib x11 l n usr lib x11 n openwinhome lib n \( put one line , though , spaces ! \) together following lib xinitrc xrdb merge 'end customization end xrdb xrdb merge 'end ifdef color customization color endif end xrdb automatically get color oclock , editres , bitmap , , since use customization resource appearing c xfilesearchpath \( see oclock \( n \) \) according rainer ifi unizh ch subject get \? ftp , implementations , etc xview 3 0 available anonymous ftp export lcs mit edu elsewhere moolit bought source form openwindows obtained sun , get source interactive systems inc also included vendors' system v release 4 implementations , although 's always latest version current release openwindows sun supported architectures 3 0 sun 3 series frozen openwindows 2 0 note sun includes openwindows sunos , also included windowing system solaris said \( sun \) 35 ports openwindows either available progress unfortunately , none seem available anywhere contact anthony com information subject bibliography books , manuals , journals , papers , beer mats open look \( tm \) graphical interface documented two books sun microsystems inc , look graphical user interface application style , addison wesley , 1989 sun microsystems inc , look graphical user interface functional , addison wesley main documentation x window system comes o'reilly associates nine ten volumes useful open look users volume 1 xlib programming manual volume 2 xlib reference manual volume 3 x window system user 's guide \( open look edition volume 3 appear later year \) volume 7 xview programmer 's manual dan heller make sure get 3rd edition xview 3 0 companion volume 7 xview reference manual ed thomas van companion volume 7 expanded version attribute summary previous edition xview programming manual , together reference information , practice buy books o'reilly also orange book differences x11r4 olit programmers also want xt books volumes 4 5 new big fat green vol 5 updated x11r5 journal , x resource , may also interest o'reilly associates , 103 morris street , , , ca 1 707 829 0515 , , usa canada , 1 800 998 fax 1 707 829 email nuts ora com uunet ! ora ! nuts distributors mail , fax , call 1 707 829 0515 o'reilly examples available fro ftp export lcs mit edu contrib directory system v release 4 documentation prentice hall may also include section openwindows david miller describes programming olit open look \( press \) gives excellent introduction x olit programming , well setting using x openwindows , r desktop guide open sams , 1992 isbn 0 672 0 get examples book export lcs mit edu contrib examples tar z also using olit , xt particular x window system programming applications xt , open look edition , doug young john pew , prentice hall , 1992 , isbn 0 13 x also hp widgets motif \( ugh \) versions book example source code book obtained ftp export lcs mit edu , file contrib young pew olit z introduction xview applications sun , vol 1 , `a guide macintosh \( r \) \( sun microsystems , pub addison wesley \) learn news postscript languages , see news book , springer verlag , 1989 \( sadly , little date \) postscript language reference manual , second edition , adobe systems inc , addison wesley , 1990 red book note openwindows 3 level 1 postscript implementation , certain level 2 features \( composite fonts \) degree postscript language tutorial cookbook , adobe systems inc , addison wesley , 1985 blue book 's least one book using solaris \( e sunos \) sun also supplies large amount documentation openwindows , although may order separately 's little 21 cm square \( wider a4 paper \) , vary 1 cm thick say 's 's front user manuals red stripe bottom , programmer ones green stripe 800 10 openwindows version 3 release manual 800 10 openwindows version 3 installation start guide 800 10 openwindows version 3 deskset reference guide 800 10 openwindows version 3 user 's guide 800 10 desktop integration guide also available bookstores \? 800 10 programmer 's guide 800 10 openwindows version 3 reference manual man pages 800 10 news toolkit 3 0 reference manual 800 10 news 3 0 programming guide 800 10 olit 3 0 widget set reference manual 800 10 xview 3 0 reference manual converting sunview applications 800 10 f3 font format specification order separately also sets documentation , including documentation group , example n't seem complete list anywhere \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? tooltalk 1 0 setup administration guide \( sunsoft , 1991 \) 800 10 tooltalk 1 0 programmer 's guide \( sunsoft , 1991 \) might documentation link manager somewhere , includes several large thorny worth paper olit sun 's answerbook cd rom contains lot documentation , including o'reilly books \( xview 3 volume 7 , though \) volume 8 o'reilly series x administration , mentions openwindows , although primarily aimed x11r5 several books works subject getting file , revision history , recent changes mail lee sq com ask douglas n arnold \( dna math psu edu \) keeps date copy ftp math psu edu \( currently 146 186 131 129 \) file ftp pub faq open look net answers archives servers may may know file , since 've changed hands file previously one archive id open look faq , v 1 48 93 05 09 18 03 13 lee exp andrei elvis com \( feb binder patch \) douglas n arnold dna math psu edu \( feb various changes \) ian darwin ian sq com christopher davis eff org paul eggert eggert bi com \( feb solaris 2 1 \) r stewart ellis frith egr msu edu \( feb assert \) jeff meaddata com \( feb colormap stuff \) rick rick eng sun co \( feb including signature \) nicholas nh cbnewsg cb att com \( feb xt olit cc workaround \) larry matthias matthias larc nasa gov \( feb news colormap flashing \) john b yk fujitsu co jp com \( feb south paws \) christian uni hannover de \( feb xt jumbo patch \) kevin w thomas uoknor edu \( mar olvwm patches \) larry w virden lvirden cas org \( mar various comments \) many others get deleted list liam quin , manager contracting , softquad inc , 1 416 239 lee sq com open look ui faq list news game lq text text retrieval
lee sq sq com \( liam r e quin \) subject list programs open look user interface organization softquad inc , toronto , canada expires 2 jun 1993 04 00 04 gmt lines 576 id open look programs faq , v 1 17 93 03 21 17 17 55 lee exp locker lee contents subject applications application builders subject applications graphing tools subject applications utilities subject applications subject tools terminal emulators subject commercial applications subject applications toolkit extensions subject openwindows 3 ports subject xview 3 ports subject xview 2 ports subject games \( free commercial \) subject applications application builders commercial devguide 3 0 contact lets use drag drop create open look application xview , olit , uit tnt easy use free dirt might olit port ui builder commercial contact expert object one first third party gui builders support open look , using xview toolkit reviewed magazine 1990 commercial contact parcplace , debra frances debra parcplace com , 1 303 440 uib user interface builder supports building applications support open look motif generates code parcplace 's oi c toolkit make use user created note also display osf motif gui runtime free wcl uses x resources specify xt widget hierarchy actions user defined callbacks uses olit , xt motif commercial xvt contact xvt systems \( 1 303 443 \) lets write code common subset open look , motif , microsoft windows , macintosh gui , even terminals \( using curses \) buy xvt toolkit environment subject applications graphing tools free xview based program plots lorenz chaotic things real time also includes mathematical expression interpreter ftp tn cornell edu free ace gr graph analysis program , xvgr ftp ftp ccalmr ogi edu 129 95 72 34 xvgr 2 09 tar z ccalmr pub acegr handles x , , , fft analysis , running averages , polynomial fits , etc free robot scientific graph plotting data analysis tool contact robin astro psu edu description graph plotting various styles axes data manipulation arithmetic , functions , smoothing , folding , sorting fitting data using , , , user defined functions annotation graphs log files commands loops etc colour postscript output ftp astrod astro psu edu \( 128 118 147 28 \) pub astrod ftp files 35 tar z everything ftp files ps z documentation ftp files robot sun4 z binary built sparcstation requirements robot xview based user interface portions code written 'c' data manipulation code written fortran hence fortran compiler also required public domain f2c package alternatively , sparc binary available anonymous ftp subject applications utilities free boss description open look ui casio boss scheduler free props ftp export lcs mit edu pub contrib lib xview3 clients props description openwindows properties editor , appears choose properties item workspace menu free ftp export lcs mit edu description special purpose console window filter take special action specified console messages written chuck requirements xview free faces description displays pictures people sent electronic mail violates data protection act u k subject applications commercial 400 contact bim \( 32 2 759 59 25 \) sunbim x 400 address c p bim horizon g patrick notes complete x 400 electronic mail system consists user interface gives access x 400 services consistent look feel , message transfer agent \( mta \) system transfer messages x 25 , tp 4 tcp ip \( using rfc 1006 \) gateway smtp mail also available free description day week month year glance calendar almanac ftp export lcs mit edu contrib tar z contact bill , tektronix , inc saab cna tek com free description sunview program converted xview , included gnu emacs distribution free contact ian darwin ian sq com genealogy program , written c using guide incomplete jan '93 inquire details free workman audio cd player x11 \( sun , ultrix \) requirements xview libraries ftp ultrix binary ftp hyperion com workman ftp ftp ucsc edu incoming database 750 cds contact hyperion com \( steven grimm \) free pan notes free wais ftp sunsite unc edu description networked , distributed text retrieval system olit based front end notes might need add makefile free card index address book free xv display description xview program showing text file , like \( 1 \) commercial 1 0 contact sunsoft us 1 800 873 uk 0800 89 88 88 germany 01 30 81 61 91 france 05 90 61 57 platforms sparc , solaris 1 x price 249 notes full text search retrieval application designed improve individual group productivity makes index files later retrieve documents words phrases , ranking results relevance order commercial contact sunsoft notes conferencing software lets multiple connected users share drawing screen , bitmap capture pointer requirements run one per computer , cpu per conference member free man pages viewer free list manager ftp export lcs mit edu contrib 4 0 tar z , contrib 4 0 readme requirements xview libraries contact mike cs hope edu \( bitnet hope \) organisation hope college department computer science free name finder contact richard eng auburn edu 1 \( 205 \) 844 2280 ftp ftp eng auburn edu 131 204 10 91 pub name 2 tar z patches pub name 2 compile requirements openwindows 3 0 , c 2 1 greater recompile description name finder designed replacement name finder missing openwindows version 3 0 mailtool since grown tool several electronic mail related activities including interaction local listserv robots handling mail lists , requesting full name style mail aliases local postmaster , providing mailbox status information ala finger \( 1 \) name finder written c \( 2 1 \) using version 1 1 n't access c compiler , sparc executable included distribution free interface bibtex databases requirements xview ftp unibe ch 130 92 64 10 x11 1 11 tar z ftp includes source sparc binary sunos 4 1 1 version 1 11 description gui bibliography databases used latex , tex framemaker free interface ftp ftp ftp chpc utexas edu file packages x 1 1 tar z contact bill jones jones chpc utexas edu requirements x11 , olit motif athena widgets notes formerly called compiles \( least \) ultrix , aix 3 1 5 , aix 3 2 , convex os , sunos , unicos 6 1 4 , irix uses olit bug also use osf motif athena widgets free olvwm open look virtual window manager contact scott oaks ftp export lcs mit edu contrib directory patches two patches requirements xview 3 description olvwm version olwm manages \( hence name \) shows little map screen , currently displayed area represented little rectangle move around dragging rectangle arrow keys lets run several clients \( applications \) move display around one olvwm derived openwindows 3 0 olwm free open look front end ftp requirements xview ftp export lcs mit edu contrib free contact turing institute requirements openwindows 3 \( running xnews server , x11 \) hypertext package written entirely news runtime turing com pub ftp uu net \( graphics news 5 runtime tar z \) maestro \( ftp stanford edu \) multimedia authoring tools , including support sound , text video \( ftp export lcs mit edu \) xview based newsreader netnews free xvttool ftp cs dal ca pub comp archives ftp inria fr x contrib clients ftp lth se pub netnews alt sources dec xvttool z ftp src doc ic ac uk usenet comp archives x11 terminal xvttool description vt100 102 emulator , xview sunview versions includes buttons pf keys , etc subject postscript graphics viewers commercial pageview postscript previewer contact included openwindows part deskset notes type 1 support openwindows 3 0 1 solaris 2 1 support colour openwindows 3 try pageview aa dpi 150 note pageview uses x11 news server interpret postscript , thus wo n't run x terminal non openwindows server 's enough open look ui tm window manager olwm commercial postscript program editor previewer contact included openwindows 2 0 demo share src notes runs openwindows 2 commercial psh contact included openwindows simple interface news openwindows server free ftp export lcs mit edu contrib clients notes crispin 's postscript interpreter , much hacked open look compliant type 1 font support versions called , , etc n't confuse one mentioned free ghostscript \( free software foundation \) supports type 1 fonts open look based subject tools terminal emulators free cmdtool , shelltool requirements xview 3 toolkit notes included xview source distribution export lcs mit edu contrib 're also included sun 's openwindows commercial contact micro resources inc , , ohio , usa , 1 614 766 notes version xterm open look ui , print interface , ansi x3 64 colour escape sequences , etc commercial contact bristol group ltd , 1 415 925 \( 49 \) 6105 \( germany \) requirements openwindows 3 \( \? \? \) products , , power base notes olit based terminal emulator could n't get demo version give shell prompt , although look like pretty emulation , double height characters , colour , fonts , forth union flag \( british flag \) logo somehow expected english address , perhaps bristol subject commercial applications contact sunsoft \( sun \) ask catalyst open look guide , lists 200 pages applications also get free cd rom , contains demo versions several popular open look ui applications 've done , often simply contact vendor concerned license upgraded demo , receive full product documentation product name author editor sgml based text editor word processor company name softquad inc , 1 416 239 , mail sq com description word processor text editor iso sgml documents interfaces open look ui \( xview \) , osf motif , mac , ms windows subject applications toolkit extensions product name xtra company name graphical software technology e mail info gst com phone 310 328 fax 310 376 keywords graphics , library , widgets , spreadsheet , help interfaces open look , motif platforms sparc , 400 700 , ibm rs6000 , interactive 386 requirements x11 , xt , xol \( xm \) libraries headers x11 price 795 single user , 3000 network , 5000 source support price 400 30 calls source available yes description xtra library contains set widgets compatible either olit motif widgets library includes widgets implement following spreadsheet , bar graph , stacked bar graph , line graph , pie chart , xy plot , hypertext , hypertext based help system , data entry form widgets successfully integrated teleuse telesoft builder ics free demo available supported platforms product name xrt graph company name kl group e mail sun com ! ! klg ! info , info klg com phone 1 416 594 1026 description xrt graph graph object extends xview toolkit also xt versions olit motif xrt graph supports line plots , scatter plots , strip charts , bar charts , stacking bar charts , pie charts filled area charts , combination supports real time updates , true postscript output , intelligent user feedback comes builder , graph prototyping tool , supports code resource file generation free demo \( \) available free integration kits uim x , teleuse , builder \( others progress \) availability xrt graph xview olit available sparc xrt graph motif available dozen platforms free slingshot xview extension slingshot provides rectangles \( like xt gadget \) , drag drop support , images , icons text , trees , lines , arrows get ftp export lcs mit edu , contrib 0 tar z \( remember use binary mode ftp ! \) also get sending mail archive server eng sun com body message containing line like send 0 going send 0 send 0 send 0 ask one file time reduce impact intermediate mail sites ask mail server help subject line help human reached archive manager eng sun com add line message path mail address think normal automatic reply address might work ada bindings xview sun ada 1 1 includes among things ada source code generator devguide uses xview ada bindings yet july 1992 support \( guide file manager \) c bindings xview qualix 's xv uit subject openwindows 3 ports sun sparc , sunos 4 1 sun sparc , solaris 2 \( actually 3 0 1 \? \) others none far said \( sun \) two three ports openwindows either available progress contact anthony flynn open international \( anthony com \) information \( originally said 35 , perhaps meant 3 5 \) openwindows source available commercially , costs 5 , 000 server , including toolkits deskset \( etc \) another 25 , 000 tooltalk 40 , 000 subject xview 3 ports xview 3 system apple ux porter org \( lou jones \) ftp org notes libraries utilities \( olwm , cmdtool , etc \) available anonymous ftp org used gcc 2 1 compile sources enough interest , make diffs available system concurrent 7000 \( 68040 based \) porter boeing com \( \) system decstation ultrix porter com \( dave scott \) ftp media lab media mit edu ftp xview3 ultrix 4 2 mips tar z notes let stress fully tested , seems work pretty well please let know problems find problems already know large buttons non sun x server \( non xnews e standard mit 45 server \) bottom button chopped 're working one \) xview 3 also available dec freeware cd , actually seems dave scott 's port please accept apologies listing incorrectly correct entry appear soon get necessary information lee system hp 720 porter \( \? \) ftp tesla ucd ie 137 43 24 44 , pub notes includes hp 720 build , hp xview patch file , xvgr system hp9000 300 series porter ecs ac uk \( tim chown \) system hp9000 7xx series ftp ftp csc liv ac uk \( 138 253 42 172 \) hpux x11 xview 3 part 123 tar z system intel \( i386 \) porter dawes physics su oz au \( david dawes \) ftp ftp physics su oz au , physics su oz au esix 4 x11r5 hierarchy notes patches esix 4 0 3 work dell , isc intel svr4 worries files readme xview3 xview3 diff z see also linux system ibm rs 6000 porter tmcconne sedona intel com \( tom mcconnell \) compiler ftp export lcs mit edu contrib xview3 fixes xview3 unofficial patch z notes still problem tty support rs 6000 instance , cmdtool work still , everything else works already installed previous patch , put separate patch shared library problem file contrib xview3 fixes xview3 xview lib patch z system linux porter kenneth ericsson se gcc 2 3 3 , 2 ftp tsx 11 mit edu pub linux binaries usr bin x11 ftp sunsite unc edu notes olvwm , uit system sgi porter rainer ifi unizh ch ftp export lcs mit edu contrib xview3 fixes xview3 sgi unofficial patch tar z notes system solbourne series 5 porter tmcconne sedona intel com \( tom mcconnell \) subject xview 2 ports general , point using xview 2 xview 3 available 's good idea look xview 3 port first moving xview 2 xview 3 usually simply matter , unless 've done dirty tricks used undocumented calls system stellar \( stardent 1000 \) stardent 1500 3000 porter scripps edu \( andy \) ftp scripps edu \( 137 131 152 27 \) pub xview directory notes stardent kubota pacific \( kpc \) system harris nighthawk 4000 system \( cx ux unix \) porter andy harris nl \( andy warner \) status commercial system sgi iris porter \( \? \) ftp wuarchive wustl edu graphics graphics sgi stuff xview system vax vms porter tgv inc \( \? \) notes steven afterlife ncsc mil wrote company called tgv makes product called xview vms made xview 2 0 libraries n't seen advertising xview 3 0 libraries yet subject games \( free commercial \) commercial flight simulator gx equipped sparcstations contact artificial horizons inc , interest com 1 415 367 requirements openwindows \( 2 3 \) , sunos 4 1 later , sparc gx free minesweeper game based contact lee sq com , include subject requirements openwindows 3 0 later toolkit tnt 3 free free pacman game ftp ftp uu net usenet comp sources games open look pacman \( tm \) surrogate appears debugger bad guys code bugs move around screen \( good guy \) chase 19 monitor eats bugs commercial contact dux software , los altos , ca price us 89 requirements openwindows 3 \( uses news \) n't run 4 110 \( free spider \( included openwindows \) patience style card game two packs cards excellent bitmap cards suggest allow cards rounded edges free \( ftp export lcs mi edu contrib 2 1 tar z \) motif olit based tool constructed get ready liam quin , manager contracting , softquad inc , 1 416 239 lee sq com open look ui faq list news game lq text text retrieval
art cs ualberta ca \( art mulder \) subject comp windows x getting performance x faq summary posting contains list suggestions get best performance x workstation without buying hardware keywords faq speed x nntp posting host spirit riv cs ualberta ca reply art cs ualberta ca \( art mulder \) organization university alberta , edmonton , canada expires sun , 20 jun 1993 23 00 00 gmt lines 676 archive name x faq speedups last modified 1993 4 20 maximize performance x monthly posting compiled art mulder \( art cs ualberta ca \) ram , faster cpu 's , disk space , faster ethernet standard responses hear ask improve performance workstation well , hardware n't always option , wonder hardware always even necessity faq list collection suggestions ideas different people net best possible performance x windows workstation , without purchasing hardware performance highly subjective issue individual user must balance versus order come personal decision therefore document expected contain many subjective opinions amongst objective facts document specifically concerned x course many factors affect performance workstation however , outside scope document people seriously interested whole area system performance , might want look o'reilly nutshell handbook system performance tuning mike imho , contains well written , comprehensive treatment system performance i'm unaware similar books ed table contents 0 introduction administrivia 1 x faq \? 2 window managers 3 x server server \? locking server ram \? starting server fonts resources file define display properly 4 clients better clock x better terminal emulator x tuning client 5 miscellaneous suggestions pretty pictures quicker mouse programming thoughts say ! \? 6 sources information 7 author notes ! changed since last issue new since last issue introduction administrivia document posted month , around 15th , usenet news groups comp windows x , news answers , comp answers reading copy faq months old \( see last modified date \) probably locate latest edition , since information may outdated know get newsgroups site receive article already expired , retrieve faq archive site exist several usenet faq archive sites find access , please see introduction news answers newsgroup posting news answers main faq archive rtfm mit edu 18 172 1 27 document found pub usenet news answers x faq speedups access anonymous ftp , retrieve sending mail message mail server rtfm mit edu command send usenet news answers x faq speedups message body x faq \? david b lewis \( faq craft uunet uu net \) maintains informative well written comp windows x frequently asked questions document focus general x information , faq concentrates performance comp windows x faq address issue speed , regards x server gist topic seems use x11r5 , faster r4 \( please see x faq complete details \) window managers lot window managers , lots different features abilities choice use necessity balancing act performance useful features point , respondents agreed upon twm best candidate speedy window manager couple generic tricks try soup window manger , turning unnecessary things like zooming opaque move also , lay windows tiled manner , reduce amount cpu power spent raising lowering overlapping windows joe english \( joe trystero art com \) 've found good font tiling 7x13 \( aka misc fixed medium r normal 13 100 100 100 c 70 iso8859 1 \) biggest font know use sun \( 1152x900 screen \) still get two 80 column terminal windows side side display overlap font suggestions accepted x server server \? make sure server proper match hardware monochrome monitor , use monochrome x11 server monochrome sun , n't noticed much difference xsun \( colour \) server xsunmono , however pointed xsunmono 800k smaller therefore contribute less paging thanks jonny farringdon \( j farringdon psychol ucl ac uk \) , michael salmon \( michael salmon eos ericsson se \) server compiled also make difference jeff law \( law cs utah edu \) advises us sun system , x compiled gcc \( version 2 \) sun compiler expect get large speedups server using bundled sunos compiler assume similar results would occur used one high quality commercial compilers market locking server ram \? anyone tried hacking x server locked ram get \? eg via call \( \) help performance \? 've one inquiry topic , pointers \( \) function call , hard evidence someone 's tried position give try thanks eric c \( ecc att com \) , danny backx \( db sunbim \) , juan martin \( us es \) starting server joe english \( joe trystero art com \) start lot clients xsession whatever , sleep second two launching one changed xclients script , logging actually took less time heavily loaded system without much core , though sounds crazy , confirmed works ! warner \( imp solbourne com \) provided good explanation works , summarized start x server takes huge amount time start accepting connections lot initialization done server starts process touches large number pages process running time would fight server use cpu , importantly , memory put sleep , give server chance get sorted clients start similarly , also lot initialization whenever x client program starts toolkits registering widgets , resources fetched , programs initializing state databases forth activity typically memory intensive initialization done \( process reached steady state \) , memory usage typically settles using pages using sleeps launching clients xinitrc , avoid fighting workstation 's limited resources definitely mileage may vary situation , many variables considered available ram , local swap space , load average , number users system , clients starting , etc currently xinitrc situation like \( sleep 1 exec xclock \) \( sleep 1 exec xbiff \) \( sleep 1 exec xterm \) \( sleep 1 exec xterm \) 've experimented \( sleep 1 exec xclock \) \( sleep 2 exec xbiff \) \( sleep 3 exec xterm \) \( sleep 4 exec xterm \) 've even tried \( sleep 2 exec start x clients script \) start x clients script \( sleep 1 exec xclock \) \( sleep 1 exec xbiff \) \( sleep 1 exec xterm \) \( sleep 1 exec xterm \) idea last one make sure xinit completely finished processing xinitrc , settled steady state sleep expired clients launched yielded fairly comparable results , stuck current setup , simplicity probably experiment bit find setup suits fonts loading fonts takes time ram minimize number fonts applications use , 'll get speed increases load time one simple strategy choose small number fonts \( one small , one large , one roman , whatever suits \) configure clients least heavily used clients use fonts client programs start quicker font already loaded server also conserve server resources , since fewer fonts loaded server farrell mckay \( fbm oz au \) , joe english \( joe trystero art com \) eg main xterm font 7x13 , also twm set use 7x13 's menus icons etc twm 's default font since n't normally use , 've eliminated one font server oliver jones \( oj roadrunner pictel com \) keep fonts local workstation , rather loading nfs make extensive use r5 scalable fonts , use font server resources file keep xresources xdefaults file small saves ram saves server startup time joe english \( joe trystero art com \) one suggestion xdefaults \( xresources \) file , try putting minimum number resources want available applications example true , separate resources individual client specific resource files example home lib app defaults login file set environment variable xuserfilesearchpath setenv xuserfilesearchpath home lib app defaults n comp windows x frequently asked questions faq contains excellent explanation environment variables work ed , xterm launches , loads resources app defaults xterm xdvi finds app defaults xdvi , forth note clients follow xxxxx resource file naming pattern check system app defaults directory \( often usr x11r5 lib x11 app defaults \) find proper name , name personal resource files name documented xt specification \( pg 125 666 \) thanks kevin \( com \) , michael urban \( urban cobra jpl nasa gov \) , mike long \( mikel ee cornell edu \) kevin willing mail setup files method organizing personal resources following benefits easier maintain usable fewer resources stored x server resource manager property side benefit server may start quicker , since doesn`t load resources applications process resources , never sort resources find ones affect also drawbacks application interested load additional file every time starts n't seem make much performance difference , might consider huge boon modifying application 's resource database , need run application without xrdb xrdb default run xdefaults file cpp resources split multiple resource files loaded individual client programs , watch ! ! c style comments xdefaults file , cpp stripped switched method distributed resource files spent several frustrating days trying figure clients finding resources xt provide error message encountered c style comments resource files , simply , silently , aborted processing resource file loss \( handy , e g `` ifdef \) enough cause people dismiss method resource management may also run clients break rules example , neither emacs \( 18 58 3 \) xvt \( 1 0 \) find resources anywhere xdefaults starting client machine share files machine resources stored , client find resources loading resources server guarantee clients always find resources casey \( casey gauss llnl gov \) possible compromise suggestion \( planning trying \) put resources heavily used clients \( eg xterm \) xdefaults file , use separate resources files method clients seldom use define display properly client programs often executed machine server situation , rather setting display environment variable hostname 0 0 , hostname name workstation , set display variable unix 0 0 0 0 access optimized routines know server machine use shared memory method transferring requests thanks patrick j \( ras amdahl com \) see display names section x \( 1 \) man page explanation properly set display name n't think 's stock mit , \( least \) data general hp libraries smart enough use local communication even display n't set specially rob sartin \( ! sartin uunet uu net \) jody goldberg \( jody com \) sent xlib patch change stock r5 use local communication even display properly set n't want get business distributing trying juggle non mit patches elected include hopefully mit apply minor \( 8 lines \) patch meantime , want try , email jody ed clients megabytes ram think carefully number programs running think also kind programs running example smaller clock program xclock \? unfortunately , n't really noticed programs advertise large , onus us research spread word suggestions better alternatives standard clients \( eg xclock , xterm , xbiff \) welcome ed 've received contradictory advice people , subject x client programs advocate use programs strictly xlib based , since xt , xaw toolkits rather large others warn us applications using may already loaded one shared libraries case , using non xt \( example \) client program may actually increase amount ram consumed upshot seems n't mix toolkits , try use athena clients , xview clients \( motif clients , etc \) use one , 're dragging one toolkit library know environment , think carefully client programs would work best together environment thanks rob sartin \( ! sartin uunet uu net \) , duncan sinclair \( sinclair dcs gla ac uk sinclair uk ac gla dcs \) better clock x 1 \) suggested duncan sinclair \( sinclair dcs gla ac uk \) available export lcs mit edu displays clock title bar another program saves screen real estate 2 \) suggested der mouse \( mouse lightning mcrcim mcgill edu \) available larry mcrcim mcgill edu \( 132 206 1 1 \) x shar non xt based extensively configurable made look much like mit oclock , mostly like xclock purely changing resources course , ultimate clock one consumes resources , takes screen real estate one hangs wall \) better terminal emulator x readme file distributed xterm abandon hope , ye enter undoubtedly ugly program distribution ugly maybe , site 's still used suspect xterm one used clients many , sites laziness \? n't better terminal emulator available \? see must use xterm , try reducing number reduce memory usage oliver jones \( oj roadrunner pictel com \) , jonny farringdon \( j farringdon psychol ucl ac uk \) 1 \) xvt suggested richard hesketh \( rlh2 ukc ac uk \) available export lcs mit edu contrib xvt 1 0 tar z n't need esoteric features xterm , get hold xvt written save swap space xterm rather hog ! written partial xterm n't rename resources , xvt pretends xterm 's current version , cannot bind keys xterm 've heard versions xvt feature , 've found yet update \( march 1993 \) recently email conversations brian warkentin \( brian eng sun com \) regarding xvt questions whether xvt really faster xterm instance , xvt may initialize slightly faster , compare scrolling speed \( try benchmark bin time dd etc termcap bs 40 \) see program scroll faster also , xterm may slightly larger ram requirements \( n't hard numbers , anyone else \? \) shared libraries shared text segments mean xterm 's paging requirements major experiment , ripped tek stuff xterm , made little difference , since never use , never gets brought memory stand conflicting reports validity xvt xterm summary \? caveat emptor , mileage may vary provide hard data , 'd like see specifically much ram occupies , much swap needs , relative speed 2 \) mterm suggested der mouse \( mouse lightning mcrcim mcgill edu \) available larry mcrcim mcgill edu \( 132 206 1 1 \) x mterm src mterm ball wax also terminal emulator major lack , people like anyway tuning client suggestions tune client programs work faster scott barman \( scott asd com \) comes suggestion regarding motif text field widgets noticed data entry motif text field widgets , getting slight lag response keystrokes , particularly initial one field examining going found seems resource non zero focus text field widget \( even text widget \) beam cursor blink every time cursor appears disappears widgets , widget code making request server \( \) user stop setting resource 0 noticeable 40mhz sparc , make little difference slower system specific suggestion probably applied general lots areas consider heavily used clients , minor embellishments turned thereby save server requests \? miscellaneous suggestions pretty pictures n't use large bitmaps \( gif 's , etc \) root window backgrounds complicated root window bitmap , slower server redrawing screen reposition windows \( redraw , etc \) take ram , cpu power work sun sparc i'm conscious performance issues , ca n't comprehend see people 4mb sun 3 60 running root window 'll let someone else figure much ram would occupied full screen root image colour workstation 're anything like , need screen real estate get clients , rarely see root window anyway thanks alex zhao \( cs arizona edu \) reminding one ed quicker mouse using xset , adjust fast pointer moves screen move mouse use xset 3 10 xinitrc file , lets send pointer across screen flick wrist see xset man page ideas information hint sometimes may want slow mouse tracking fine work cover options , placed number different mouse setting commands menu window manager e g \( twm \) menu mouse settings mouse settings f title fast ! xset 7 10 normal \( fast \) ! xset 3 10 system default \( un accelerated \) ! xset default glacial ! xset 0 10 programming thoughts joe english \( joe trystero art com \) speed applications 're developing , tons things stick motif programs , n't set resources individual buttons , labels , lists , et al use whatever resource highest level manager widget , stick fonts possible better yet , n't use motif 's absolute pig n't create destroy widgets fly try reuse \( avoid many problems buggy toolkits , \) use line width 0 gcs servers makes huge difference compress collapse multiple expose events make difference fast application completely unusable one francois \( kiwi ac \) small remark heard using better malloc function would greatly increase performance xt based applications since use malloc heavily suggested trying malloc , n't find time yet tests small programs malloc free , differences indeed noticeable \( somewhat 5 times faster \) confirmation anyone \? ed andre' beck \( andre beck irs inf tu dresden de \) unnecessary noexpose events people use xcopyarea xcopyplane fastest blit routines , forget reset graphics exposures gc used cause noexpose event every blit , , cases , puts load onto connection forces client run 's event loop thousands xchangegc requests gfx context switching also seen x apps , one gcs created heavily changed xt uses definitely better mechanism , caching sharing lot gcs needed parameters remove load subsequent xchangegc requests connection \( moving toward client startup phase \) say ! \? contributors proposed ideas seem right wall first david b lewis \( day dbl osf org , night david craft uunet uu net \) swap displays someone else run programs machine display locally user runs machine onto display goal reduce context switches operation client server i'm situation easily try , received following confirmation michael salmon \( michael salmon eos ericsson se \) regularly run programs machines notice big difference try run machine reduce net usage usually nice reduce impact intrusion helps lot poor little ss1 16 mb , essential 8 mb casey \( casey gauss llnl gov \) x11 server client competing cpu server run machine really major problem , except x11 client server absolute context thrashing timothy h \( uucp \) firstly relies fact cpu 's mostly idle , x 's cpu usage chances teammate something cpu intensive time small get twice cpu memory available action second factor context switches expensive , using 2 cpu 's halves , pay price due overhead going network , offset cases improved buffering network \( typically 20k vs 4k pipe \) , allowing even fewer context switches sources information volume 8 o'reilly 's x window system series , window system administrator 's book x administrator 's read adrian nye \( adrian ora com \) lot tips performance paper improving x application performance chris peterson sharon chang , issue 3 x resource earlier version paper appeared xhibition 1992 conference proceedings paper absolutely essential reading x programmers author notes list currently maintained art mulder \( art cs ualberta ca \) suggestions , corrections , submission inclusion list gladly accepted layout suggestions comments \( spelling 's ! \) also welcome currently listed contributors various comments suggestions want credited , please tell speedup x faq copyright \( c \) 1993 arthur e mulder may copy document whole part long n't try make money , pretend wrote art mulder \( art cs ualberta ca \) conformed world , department computing science transformed renewal university alberta , edmonton , canada mind , romans 12 2
subject resource widget toolkit required x windows applications vmsb csupomona edu distribution world organization california state polytechnic university , pomona nntp posting host nntp posting user lines 23 article werple apana org au , jamie zikzak \( jamie scuglia \) writes anyone know public domain toolkits creating x windows applications \? used xt toolkit , would like create pop windows dialog boxes , etc , using sort drawing editor instead trying specify want , sizes , positions , etc , within actual source code basically , looking something similar borland 's resource toolkit ms windows , expect need one x windows instead help would much appreciated recently found excellent source x windows programs 've seen quite x windows toolkits place export lcs mit edu go contrib directory full x windows programs hope helps !
perrot polymtl ca \( perrot \) subject installing xdbx v2 1 2 sgi originator perrot indigo organization ecole polytechnique , institut de genie biomedical lines 10 anyone install xdbx v2 1 2 sgi workstation \? thanks answer perrot perrot , de recherche ecole polytechnique institut de genie biomedical c p , e mail perrot polymtl ca montreal , canada tel \( 514 \) 340 fax \( 514 \) 340
gordons mon sps mot com \( gordon sasamori \) subject viewing postscript files x windows organization nippon motorola ltd , tokyo , japan lines 19 inmet camb inmet com camb inmet com \( george snyder \) writes article polaris isi com kin isi com \( kin cho \) writes wonder anybody know x window based postscript file viewer runs sunos \( prefered \) , hpux , ibm aix running sun openwindows , use pageview x window postscript previewer like ghostview , displays much nicer yes , 's broken ow 2 0 handle multiple pages well n't proper postscript commands draw entire document page instead pausing page n't tried ow 3 0 yet , though v 1 v 2 v 3 v 4 v 5 v 6 v 7 gordon sasamori mcu design \( email gordons ai sps mot com , nippon motorola ltd voice 81 \( 3 \) , fax 81 \( 3 \) \)
lbl gov \( brian v smith \) subject xfig 2 hp ux 9 01 \? organization lbl lines 21 distribution world nntp posting host 128 3 12 123 article elroy jpl nasa gov , urban \( michael p urban \) writes compiled xfig 2 1 patchlevel 7 hp 's x11r5 hp ux 9 01 , augmented athena mu libraries x11r5 distribution ecn uiowa edu compiles nicely \( although one file preprocessor macro definition table size needed increased \) executed , nothing happens except ever growing memory requirements \( eventually core dump \) binary identical program , compiled 8 07 x11r4 , problems programs like compile , link , run fine libraries sound familiar , going figure one \? please see post made yesterday \( may 10 \) fixes problem posted comp windows x apps brian v smith \( lbl gov \) lawrence berkeley laboratory n't speak lbl n't pay enough
orl mmc com \( chuck \) subject x11r5 aix 3 2 2 using cc reply orl mmc com organization martin marietta lines 17 gotten x11r5 pl 23 compile aix 3 2 2 using cc server run starts couple seconds later exits error displayed defines compile dsysv dsysv wait 0 returns null could somewhere share light , maybe ibm cf file thanks malcolm c martin marietta missile systems chuck orl mmc com mail point 170 phone 407 356 pobox fax 407 356 orlando florida
ptm xact demon co uk \( paul thomas mahoney \) subject uimx motif application generator organization x act solutions limited x newsreader tin 1 1 pl3 lines 8 looking information regarding uimx believe application front end generator tool motif \( among others \) someone given contact \? need get hold guide , something like paul mahoney , x act solutions limited smail 20 shipley lane , , sea , east sussex , email ptm xact demon co uk cix compulink co uk phone 44 424
car access digex net \( mr blue \) subject rookie questions organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 27 nntp posting host access digex net im new xlib programming im problem hope someone help create window , want background color , say red , draw oval , resize window , want able redraw image fills new window \( whether larger smaller \) im using rs6000 problem resize window , original part window part window creation gets drawn everything else grey oval tries redraw gets clipped see would right size could see , shows region original size window created example , start window width height resize , part color drawn origin rest grey oval shows area wrong \? \? get window resize redraw scaled image take full size window \? second question could someone tell xaw xmu \? \? \? thanks , chris
netcom com \( jeff miller \) subject o'reilly x , adobe , sun openlook books cheap organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) distribution usa lines 37 brand new copies following books sale rev , n't know much look pages , copyright date , etc clues postscript language reference manual , adobe sys inc , addison wesley , copyr 1986 , printed 1990 299 pages 22 95 postscript language tutorial cookbook , , 243 pages , 16 95 'll sell two books set 15 postage paid w us openlook gui functional specification , sun micro , addison w , copyr 1989 , pages , 34 95 openlook gui application style guidelines , 388 pages , 24 95 'll sell two books set 15 ppd w us o'reilly associates definitive guides x window system , copyr 1990 , version 11 , revised updated release 4 vol 0 x protocol reference manual , 498 pages 30 vol 1 xlib programming manual , 672 pages 34 95 vol 2 xlib reference manual , 792 pages 34 95 vol 7 xview programming manual , 640 pages 30 'll sell four books set 35 ppd w us due high hassle ratio asking pre payment check 'll , packing , shipping prepared wait 3 weeks books show 'd like pick , live san francisco prices though e mail interested thanks !
rsmith arc nasa gov subject printing xbm files organization internet lines 20 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu hi anyone know direct way print image xbm file please reply directly 'll post summary opinion presented , reflect policy employer , nasa , ames research center roger smith sterling software nasa ames research center rsmith arc nasa gov change inevitable predictable beneficial n't logic demand part \? one man cannot summon future one man change present ! kirk alternate spock , mirror , mirror , unknown
dls autodesk com \( daniel louis smith \) subject windows mfc 2 0 motif tools sought summary looking products available organization autodesk inc , sausalito ca , usa lines 19 looking info products take windows source unix box \( sparc \) , produce motif executable another requirement mfc 2 0 supported already know wind u bristol technologies hunter sdk others \? post summary 's wanted daniel dls autodesk com dls netcom com daniel l smith , autodesk , sausalito , california , \( 415 \) 332 x disclaimer accuracy statements somehow caffeine intake
dan c siu edu \( dan ellison \) subject scientific graphing looking run time library organization southern illinois university , il \( siu c \) distribution usa lines 27 1993may10 serval net wsu edu d3e758 bucky pnl gov \( je pelkey \) writes article hawnews watson ibm com watson ibm com \( art goldberg \) writes x gurus looking scientific graphing run time x library want code open window , plot graph window library manage plotting , scaling axes , labeling , etc someone recommend library \? please respond via e mail would also interested information check vogle libraries beleive still available ftp c siu edu i'm sure n't seen new announcements software i'm sure 's still around used real time data display analysis well producing graphs fact works well supports numerous graphics output formats \( including x \) tried liked may well dan ellison , network spec computing affairs , siu c southern illinois university , il fax \( 618 \) 453 phone \( 618 \) 453
ipi uni hannover de \( xu \) subject help wanted display stereo images gt accelerator reply ipi uni hannover de organization ipi , university hannover lines 18 hi , friends , sparc workstation gt accelerator want use display stereo images accelerator double buffers access buffers switch \? functions \? functions xgl , phigs , xlib xlib extension \? help highly appreciated xu uni hannover 10 5 93
netcom com \( \) subject scaling fonts x article netcom organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 13 x motif gurus , handling scaling x text performing zooming operations figures \? restricting user select scalable fonts restrictive absolute \? books discussion topic \? really taken computer graphics courses , late \( \) summarize response thanks advance \( netcom com \)
mahan tgv com \( patrick l mahan \) subject remote x across tcpip decnet organization internet lines 23 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu , wcsub ctstateu edu anyone know following possible , go want able display remote x11 applications 2000 internet node problem comes , n't connected directly internet connected via decnet node connection internet anyone know possible get display use tcpip remote internet node local internet node send via decnet 2000 \? machine connected internet , running \? running vms , obtain , comes tcp ip decnet gateway x11 patrick l mahan tgv window washer mahan tgv com waking person unnecessarily considered lazarus long capital crime first offense , notebooks lazarus long
markw pspmf3 gpsemi com \( mark wilkinson ext 3443 \) subject looking x windows pc keywords ibm pc , x windows , windows nntp posting host pspmf3 roborough gpsemi com reply wilkinson roborough gpsemi com organization gec semiconductors lines 24 hi , first time 've posted net , hope going right people i'm looking software packages run ibm pc clone allows display openlook motif windows pc idea use pc cheap x windows terminal use process engineers work anyone e mail recommended packages horror stories etc would greatful thanks advance mark wilkinson mark wilkinson e mail wilkinson roborough gpsemi com senior software engineer lincoln gpsemi com gec semiconductors roborough , plymouth , england
dcr mail ast cam ac uk \( derek c richardson \) subject 1 0 part 1 2 keywords animation xview raster nntp posting host ioas09 ast cam ac uk reply dcr mail ast cam ac uk organization institute astronomy , cambridge lines 699 well , thanks largely subscribers group , 's 1 0 , animation package started 3 weeks ago number solutions provided discussions incorporated code , look ! full blurb posted comp windows x announce post two parts unpack source code , extract articles \( example \) use text editor remove leading trailing text cut markers \( including markers \) next type cat file , uudecode file 0 tar z tar xvf read readme file instructions proceed enjoy ! derek p source also available anon ftp export lcs mit edu contrib directory enough demand , static binary provided without xview libraries include files derek c richardson tel \( 0223 \) 337548 x 37501 institute astronomy fax \( 0223 \) 337523 cambridge , u k cb3 0ha e mail dcr mail ast cam ac uk cut begin 644 0 tar z 2 f4 , 5s h ' g 4 ho c ! d' m8 b1 \) 4 7 , v 0b c \) \( 6w f \) , \? 0 \( , c2 \) , j7 jt pl 3 apr ! , h6 0d 8 bm 6 d1 \) \) , , 6 \? b c \) 9 7r w nwk , a0 \( 0 ! \) 8 6 4 ! l9 fs ! t0 2 2 p 0 2 , x 0 \( 1 2 '3 ! 8 9p 04 , ' ! \( ha 6 tr , 1 s1 t8 \? zf 23 , rrg m3 ! , x0 4 3 \( \) ! 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raistlin uni paderborn de \( markus koch \) subject x motif config file hp ux 8 0 \? \? organization uni gh paderborn , germany lines 33 distribution world nntp posting host uni paderborn de hello everybody ! i'm trying compile motif 1 2 1 hp running hp ux 8 05 it' seems succesful , hp cf config files hp ux 7 0 tried standard cc x compiled lot warnings motif applications compiled quite well , wo n't run receive xkeysymdb error reported faq , cannot fix xkeysymdb file right location works fine sunos probably started compilation wrong config file please help ! thanx advance markus markus koch universitaet gh paderborn email raistlin uni paderborn de phone 49 60 str 100 49 60 paderborn , germany markus koch universitaet gh paderborn email raistlin uni paderborn de str 100 phone 49 60 paderborn , germany
\( \) subject public domain low price case rs6000 organization universita' di lines 12 looking public domain low price case , running aix 6000 3 2 solaris 1 1 sun os 3 1 , x motif x openlook i'm regular follower groups , would prefer answer e mail thanks advance , regards , centro di universita' di piazza universita' , 2
jc minya uucp \( john chambers \) subject painting increasing resolution lines 40 people working cubes come need , seems someone might done already , point tools would help 'd like given window taking long time draw \( either data arriving slow link , display across slow link \) , would like first paint low resolution version picture , repaint higher resolution thus , picture might first generated 1 4 resolution , 4x4 square pixels filled single color next , 4x4 square would replaced 4 squares finally 1x1 version would painted since one scenarios window side slow link , low res version obviously would n't transmitted bitmap would n't help instead , would process far end receives low res picture small bitmap , blows pixel square \( sorta like programs \) brings question whether x server help , window opened , way ask filter program run process pixels \? way use something like rsh start remote process \( permission denied \) , open local window \? seems likely scenario library routine starts program remotely , accepts bitmaps , compressing one amount , sending remote program expand something x help , 's nice hear \( looked several , 's , obviously n't know keywords \) someone nifty tool available packages , might want get copy oh , yes run suns part idea build demos show things run across , say , 4800 bps link , fast pictures would appear customer would get feel speed need pay auto industry like computer industry , car would cost 5 , would get 5000 miles gallon , random times would explode , killing passengers
guy x co uk \( guy singh \) subject x motif config file hp ux 8 0 \? \? reply raistlin uni paderborn de 's message 12 may 93 12 46 17 x disclaimer view ixi ltd unless explicitly stated lines 29 nntp posting host x co uk organization lot x copyright author asserts right message 12 may 93 12 46 17 , raistlin uni paderborn de \( markus koch \) said markus nntp posting host uni paderborn de markus hello everybody ! markus i'm trying compile motif 1 2 1 hp running markus hp ux 8 05 it' seems succesful , markus hp cf config files hp ux 7 0 markus tried standard cc x compiled lot warnings markus motif applications compiled quite well , wo n't run markus receive xkeysymdb error reported faq , markus cannot fix xkeysymdb file right location markus works fine sunos markus probably started compilation wrong markus config file markus please help ! markus markus thanx advance markus markus installed x lib xt projectroot , find install one files x lib search search path file based whatever projectroot defined confirm happened , i'm guessing , go mit lib x strings xkeysymdb guy singh , ixi internet guy x co uk vision park uucp guy ixi uucp cambridge bang ! uunet ! ixi ! guy cb4 , uk tel 44 223 236 555
mainzer darmstadt gmd de \( joerg mainzer \) subject reply mainzer darmstadt gmd de \( joerg mainzer \) organization german national research center information technology \( gmd \) lines 26 hello everybody ! anybody know implement use \? problem n't know many characters drawn region calculate character character width drawn text \? thank advance , , , \( \) ooo \( \) ooo joerg mainzer internet mainzer darmstadt gmd de german nat research center x mainzer darmstadt gmd dbp de information technology voice 49 6151 15 fax 49 6151 w 6100 darmstadt , germany symptom bar moving fault carried solution find taken another bar complain loudly hi jacked
rainer sun3 eeam elin co \( rainer hochreiter \) subject gc plane mask organization elin energeanwendung ges b h lines 14 nntp posting host sun3 eeam elin co x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 hi xperts ! get good example plane mask used , explain use hints welcome thanks rainer hochreiter telephone 43 \( 1 \) 89100 3961 elin energieanwendung gesmbh telefax 43 \( 1 \) 89100 3387 penzingerstr 76 1141 wien , austria europe e mail rainer elin co
williams snoopy \( timothy williams \) subject viewing postscript files x windows organization night vision labs , ft , va lines 97 x disclaimer opinions expressed necessarily nntp posting host snoopy article polaris isi com kin isi com \( kin cho \) writes wonder anybody know x window based postscript file viewer runs sunos \( prefered \) , hpux , ibm aix reason i'm looking utility 've downloaded large postscript documents 'd like know useful \( long \) commiting printer potentially wasting 200 pages paper hogging printer 1 2 hour get ghostscript ghostview ghostview postscript previewer uses ghostscript ghostview readme ghostview x11 user interface ghostscript ghostview full function user interface ghostscript 2 4 brief list features ghostview known version adobe 's document structuring conventions page size automatically determined document structuring comments user able override values comments window size set bounding box encapsulated postscript figures default page size letter changed via xresources application defaults file a4 \( valid size \) european friends scrollbars appear necessary page orientation automatically determined document structuring comments user able override values comments ability view 4 orientations portrait , landscape , upside , \( rotate landscape direction \) ability preview supported visual \( preview gray scale color color monitor \) ability mark pages printing , saving \( good people printed 100 page document lost page 59 due printer jam \) popup zoom windows printer resolution \( 1 display dot 1 printer dot \) ghostview distribution includes ghostview widget people encouraged use programs ghostview 1 3 available via anonymous ftp prep ai mit edu pub gnu ghostview 1 3 tar z cs wisc edu pub ghostview 1 3 tar z ghostscript readme file describes version 2 4 1 ghostscript overview ghostscript ghostscript name set software provides interpreter ghostscript language , closely resembles postscript \( tm \) language set c procedures \( ghostscript library \) implement graphics capabilities appear primitive operations ghostscript language ghostscript language interpreter library written entirely c , assembly language accelerators ms dos platforms currently , ghostscript known run following platform families ibm pc compatibles ega , vga , supervga , compatible graphics ms dos 3 1 , 3 3 , 5 0 wide variety unix systems using x windows version 11 , release 3 , 4 , 5 , including sun 3 , sun 4 , sun 386i , sun sparcstation 1 generic 80386 machines running 386 ix h p 9000 300 9000 800 decstation 2100 3100 vax running ultrix sequent symmetry convex c1 c2 tektronix 4300 sgi iris indigo sun workstations \( sun 3 , sparc , sun 386i \) running sunview vax , vms x11r3 4 5 , gcc dec c compiler \( dec c compiler version 3 1 later required \) \( get ghostscript ftp site get ghostview \) tim williams com \( 703 \) 704 night vision electronic sensors dsn 654 rd nv \( williams \) fax \( 703 \) 704 ft , va e mail williams army mil
doug happy vf ge com \( doug hughes \) subject fax software \? keywords free nntp posting host happy vf ge com reply doug happy vf ge com organization ge aerospace vf lines 25 article darkstar ucsc edu , cats ucsc edu \( philip brown \) writes 'd like know free fax software xwindows use sun 4 110 running mit x11r5 checked export lcs mit edu list , n't seem anything tea noxious brew various oriental leaves , containing toxic acids personally , rather like \( dr peter davidson \) cats ucsc edu soda berkeley edu check prep ai mit edu 's called fax 3 2 1 tar z something effect software requires \( moment \) fairly costly 450 fax modem certain capabilities use doug hughes system net admin martin marietta aerospace , valley , pa doug happy vf ge com doug land vf ge com
pramod stein u washington edu \( pramod \) subject problem r4 release article news distribution world organization university washington , seattle lines 14 nntp posting host stein u washington edu ld unidentified external symbol get wmshellwidgetclass get applicationshellwidgetclass use lxaw lxmu lxext lx11 lxt order proper order wondering changes link libraries include libraries help matter useful highly appreciated thanks pramod
inria fr \( eric \) subject accented characters keywords x11r5 xterm organization inria lines 57 've able configure xterm type accented characters i'm using x11r5 , iso8859 fonts , shell tcsh following definitions setenv lc ctype iso 8859 1 stty , add following xdefaults file xterm true xterm true xterm vt100 translations override meta key ' keymap \( \) n meta key ` keymap \( grave \) n meta key keymap \( circ \) n meta key , keymap \( ced \) xterm vt100 translations shift key e string \( \) keymap \( none \) n key e string \( \) keymap \( none \) n shift key c string \( \) n key c string \( \) xterm vt100 translations shift key e string \( \) keymap \( none \) n key e string \( \) keymap \( none \) n shift key u string \( \) keymap \( none \) n key u string \( \) keymap \( none \) n shift key string \( \) keymap \( none \) n key string \( \) keymap \( none \) xterm vt100 translations shift key e string \( \) keymap \( none \) n key e string \( \) keymap \( none \) n shift key u string \( \) keymap \( none \) n key u string \( \) keymap \( none \) n shift key string \( \) keymap \( none \) n key string \( \) keymap \( none \) n shift key string \( \) keymap \( none \) n key string \( \) keymap \( none \) xterm vt100 translations shift key c string \( \) keymap \( none \) n key c string \( \) keymap \( none \) makes meta ' , ` , keys behave dead keys course , works xterm emacs , solution install lucid version 19 , load x compose library hope helps , eric eric eric inria fr inria , rodin les font bp 105 , le cedex les tel \( 33 1 \) 39 63 56 19 \( \)
marlow sys uea ac uk \( keith marlow pg \) subject pd apps displaying 3d data sets article marlow organization university east anglia lines 16 subject line says really , i'm looking pd application handle displaying 3d data sets \( images \) cross section , pointers code aid development system thanks advance keith marlow keith marlow , sys p g , uea , phone cyclone bbs arc , norfolk pc files fidonet echoes charts acorn central 2 254 405 3 support area radio info w voice tried ms dos n't inhale
support qdeck com \( technical support \) subject looking x windows pc keywords ibm pc , x windows , windows organization quarterdeck office systems , santa monica ca lines 30 article gpsemi com wilkinson roborough gpsemi com writes hi , first time 've posted net , hope going right people i'm looking software packages run ibm pc clone allows display openlook motif windows pc idea use pc cheap x windows terminal use process engineers work may humbly suggest desqview x \? \( course , i'm biased \) desqview x dos computers , uses standard x11r4 server 's display mechanism dos applications microsoft windows standard mode converted fly x protocol , allowing display , r4 compatable x program machine net display pc 's local display \( display net \) free tools available x applications dvx platform many x programs ported dvx unix little modifications \( often , need create new makefile ! \) 're interested details , check usenet group comp os msdos desqview , email directly support qdeck com , 'd happy fill quarterdeck office systems internet support tom pricing ordering info qdeck com tech questions support qdeck com bbs \( 310 \) 314 3227 fax \( 310 \) 314 3217 compuserve go quarterdeck anonymous ftp qdeck com \( 149 17 8 10 \) , leave email address password
thomas tornblom nexus comm se \( thomas tornblom \) subject type1 rasterizer \? reply ingres com 's message 11 may 1993 15 04 44 gmt organization communicator nexus ab zebedee ingres co uk lines 18 article zebedee ingres co uk ingres com \( support account \) writes article thomas tornblom beck nexus comm se thomas tornblom nexus comm se \( thomas tornblom \) writes i'm trying locate type1 rasterizer ibm donated x consortium 've found patches original source 's r5 contrib tape mike , ingres uk \( ingres co uk \) yes found thanks everyone thomas real life thomas rnblom email thomas tornblom nexus comm se snail mail communicator nexus ab phone 46 18 171814 box 857 fax 46 18 696516 751 08 uppsala , sweden
beethoven cs colostate edu \( eric schwartz \) subject looking x windows pc reply markw pspmf3 gpsemi com 's message wed , 12 may 1993 07 44 42 gmt nntp posting host beethoven cs colostate edu organization bach b organization lines 12 check program called pc xview 've used , tell , 's exactly 're looking last checked , able find 160 copy eric cs colostate edu course i'm certain ! heisenberg lamar colostate edu n't single redeeming vice bob barker go oscar wilde watch white \? wasting time important part living
mark taylor uucp \( mark davis \) subject looking x windows pc organization lake taylor hospital computer services keywords ibm pc , x windows , windows lines 29 markw pspmf3 gpsemi com \( mark wilkinson ext 3443 \) writes hi , first time 've posted net , hope going right people i'm looking software packages run ibm pc clone allows display openlook motif windows pc idea use pc cheap x windows terminal use process engineers work already clone equipment lots programs \( see current copy unix world magazine \) performance suck lemons running xserver clone \( experience \) would much better xterminal new install performance least four times better addition would much easier install use top cost \( price clone 4mb ram , ethernet card , high performance graphics card , good monitor , server software , tcp ip clone software , mouse , keyboard , etc , etc , etc spend whole lot \) get 15 tektronix xp11 terminals 900 , performance 80000 xstones mark davis lake taylor hospital norfolk , va \( 804 \) 461 5001x431 sys administrator computer services mark taylor mark taylor uucp
dcs ed ac uk \( george ross \) subject twm greyscale organization department computer science , edinburgh university lines 55 distributed , twm thinks everything three colormap cells must colour screen 's patch use screen 's visual class twm c dist wed may 12 14 56 55 1993 twm c wed may 12 15 47 53 1993 343 , 352 343 , 384 scr \( \( \( unsigned long \) 1 \) scr depth \) 1 ifdef \( \( dpy , \) 3 \) scr monochrome monochrome else scr monochrome color else xvisualinfo template xvisualinfo int nitems template visual \( dpy , \) template \( template visual \) template screen \( dpy , , template , nitems \) \( nitems 1 \) switch \( class \) case staticcolor case pseudocolor case truecolor case directcolor scr monochrome color break default scr monochrome monochrome break else \( void \) fprintf \( stderr , visual match \( es \) , assuming mono n , nitems \) scr monochrome monochrome assume endif setup default colors scr true george ross , department computer science , university edinburgh kings buildings , road , edinburgh , scotland , 3jz mail dcs ed ac uk voice 031 650 fax 031 667
greg duke com \( greg \) subject tail f widget , oh lord , \? organization systems , inc lines 12 've spent past week tearing hair , trying get output piped tail f end widget 've managed make work ugly ways , either \) x blocks tail wo n't allow user input , b \) tail f functions like tail n't follow expansion file , c \) tail f n't die 've closed pipe widget , \) \( \) blocks forever waiting tail die know code exist anybody \? general \( \) case would point 'll take anything thanks greg \( greg com \) , dammit ! !
ls116 cunixa cc columbia edu \( lei shao \) subject error building x11r5 xdm keywords x11r5 xdm nntp posting host cunixa cc columbia edu reply ls116 cunixa cc columbia edu \( lei shao \) organization columbia university lines 15 hi , , i'm trying build x11r5 mit core distribution sparcstation running sunos 4 1 1 thing change projectroot site def make world process goes cc xdm , get following error ld undefined symbol error code 2 process continues finish anybody know 's wrong \? thanx info lei shao ls116 cunixa cc columbia edu
naoumov physics unc edu \( sergei naoumov \) subject twm nntp posting host physics unc edu organization dept physics astronomy , univ north carolina chapel hill lines 9 hey guys ! run twm would like execute program leaving twm words would like run program f quit possible make menu section would contain two parts \? thanks advance , serge serge astro unc edu
mlb engin umich edu \( andrew justin \) subject looking x windows pc organization university michigan engineering , ann arbor lines 38 distribution world nntp posting host mlb engin umich edu keywords ibm pc , x windows , windows originator mlb engin umich edu article gpsemi com , markw pspmf3 gpsemi com \( mark wilkinson ext 3443 \) writes hi , first time 've posted net , hope going right people i'm looking software packages run ibm pc clone allows display openlook motif windows pc idea use pc cheap x windows terminal use process engineers work anyone e mail recommended packages horror stories etc would greatful thanks advance mark wilkinson mark wilkinson e mail wilkinson roborough gpsemi com senior software engineer lincoln gpsemi com gec semiconductors roborough , plymouth , england xoftware age software proven good runs ms windows relatively stable age com could probably help andy andrew justin jobs 1 \) nuclear engineering student university michigan 2 \) ring compton camera project dept nuclear engineering 3 \) parallel computing code work andrew umich edu umich edu andrew um cc umich edu engin umich edu
oz plymouth edu \( 2 \) subject xwd color reply oz plymouth edu \( 2 \) organization plymouth state college lines 6 anyone able get xwd dump anything black white \? text black get window borders tried xy option n't know still effect help matter would greatly appreciated
pt \( \) subject none \( mail relay \) lines 33 hi people ! i'm looking x servers dos windows 've already seen desqview x xvision 'd like aware choices anything public domain shareware \? commercial area anything aggressive pricing \? incompatibilities \? window managers \? info welcome thanx advance c u ! \( e \) mario
beck irzr17 inf tu dresden de \( andre beck \) subject postscript viewer , icons organization dept computer science , tu dresden , germany lines 45 distribution world reply andre beck irs inf tu dresden de nntp posting host irzr17 inf tu dresden de article ccu umanitoba ca , ccu umanitoba ca \( r ross holder jr \) writes ever since started use xwindows \( say recently \) 've accumulated questions x applications three examples follow 1 \) recently mentioned comp os linux exists post script viewer interested x editor improvement xedit \( find annoying \) try get axe 's wonderful x based editor much simpler use emacs overkill course , emacs editor religion 2 \) one point proud owner amiga \( since upgraded 33 \) workbench \( point click interface \) used info files store data icons associated applications given volume noticed architecture anywhere linux xwindows associate icons applications \? one edit icons generate new ones applications somehow \? \( makes difference i'm running \) 1 \) n't call going amiga ibm 2 \) amiga workbench job desktop manager , really amazing good x desktop manager public domain \( i'm currently writing one 's early stage \) 3 \) may medium good replacement 4 \) x associates icons nothing number x window managers associate icons windows , way ease window management nothing icons desktop manager application 5 \) tool bitmap simple icon drawing 3 \) 've noticed people somehow discovered way display gif \( kind picture files \) background , either replacing overlapping usual grey background employed xwindows heard done using application , n't recall xv root max quit whatever image file brain inside andre' beck \( abpsoft \) mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de
pm860605 longs lance colostate edu \( peter j mckinney \) subject looking x windows pc \( long list known servers \) nntp posting host hercules lance colostate edu organization colorado state university keywords ibm pc , x windows , windows lines 1835 markw pspmf3 gpsemi com \( mark wilkinson ext 3443 \) writes hi , first time 've posted net , hope going right people i'm looking software packages run ibm pc clone allows display openlook motif windows pc idea use pc cheap x windows terminal use process engineers work 's listing came accross ago question seems come often enough figured would interest note server x appeal dos available demo form internet via anonymous ftp one way quickly checking feasability using system x server enjoy ! pete begin enclosure mccoy gothamcity jsc nasa gov \( daniel j mccoy \) newsgroups comp windows x , news answers subject x servers dos , microsoft windows , os 2 , macs , amigas , atari reply mccoy gothamcity jsc nasa gov \( daniel j mccoy \) organization net inc summary guide list x servers used nonunix sic networked machines display x clients running unix machines archive name xservers nonunix last modified 1993 04 01 version 12 0 x servers dos , microsoft windows , os 2 , macs , amigas , atari april 1 , 1993 volume 12 0 author daniel j mccoy net inc software technology branch information systems nasa johnson space center post mail nasa mail code pt4 nasa johnson space center houston , texas 77058 e mail mccoy gothamcity jsc nasa gov monthly guide x servers used non unix networked machines display x clients running unix machines use name unix loosely know others run x sources information come many places faq comp windows x , info packets vendors , user manuals products , conversations sales representatives , personal experience , comp windows x articles , etc please forward corrections updates address file also available anonymous ftp export lcs mit edu 18 24 0 12 contrib xservers nonunix txt z ftp edu 131 210 1 4 pub misc xservers nonunix txt msdos archive umich edu 141 211 164 153 msdos info xservers nonunix txt msdos info zip x servers dos desqview x ibm x windows micro x dos micro x lite pc decwindows motif v3 0 pc x windows pc xsight pc xview sage 1280 adapter x windows display server x vista exceed x appeal x station xoftware dos xoftware tiga dos x servers microsoft windows desqview x excursion windows exodus ms windows hcl exceed w x pc xview vista exceed x one x11 xoftware xvision x servers os 2 ibm x windows os 2 x servers macintosh exodus macx x servers amiga unknown x window system version 11 release amiga computer x servers atari x tos window server x tos window server color x servers x servers x servers x servers x servers x servers x servers dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos desqview x vendor melinda quarterdeck office systems , inc 150 boulevard santa monica , ca 90405 tel \( 310 \) 392 fax \( 310 \) 399 price 275 latest version 1 0 cpu 386sx higher \( 286 version available \) memory 4 mbytes operating system dos 3 0 higher dr dos 6 higher mouse optional ms compatible pointing device graphics ega , vga , super vga , 8514 , 256 color ethernet card network software disk space 40 mbyte hard drive features incorporates x desqview multi tasking dos environment adds graphical 3d look feel desqview gives users choice window managers \( look feels \) provides growth path character mode dos industry standard graphical user interfaces runs regular dos applications runs dos extended applications display dos applications within graphical windows dos applications x clients either locally remotely provides simple port applications x systems desqview x vice versa gives developers choice application appearances , based toolkit chosen supports toolkits provide features required developers push buttons , scrollbars , pop dialogue boxes , etc adobe type manager scalable fonts scalable dos windows dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos ibm x windows vendor ibm part 025 price latest version 2 1 cpu memory operating system dos mouse graphics ethernet card network software disk space features dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos micro x dos vendor starnet communications corporation lawrence santa clara , ca 95051 tel \( 408 \) 739 fax \( 408 \) 739 micro x starnet com prices 345 00 1 unit 225 00 ea 5 pack \( greater discount larger quantities \) upgrades 25 original price educational discount 10 latest version 1 6 1 cpu 386 , 486 memory 2 mbytes operating system dos 3 1 higher mouse 2 3 button mouse ms compatible driver graphics ahead \( \) ati \( 18800 \) everex \( vp vga \) genoa \( 6400 \) paradise \( 11 30 \) stb \( em 16 \) trident \( 8800cs \) tseng labs \( et 3000 4000 \) video7 \( \) western digital \( 11 30 \) \( \) vesa others ethernet card 3com 503 505 523 3com etherlink mc cabletron 1 2 3000 micom interlan western digital novell ne 1000 2000 national semiconductor boards packet driver manufacturer network software included starnet tcp ip \( integrated \) ncsa telnet , ftp , lpr , etc packet drivers \( clarkson crynwr \) network software supported beame whiteside bw tcp ftp software pc tcp sun pc nfs disk space 3 mbytes \( 9 mbytes fonts \) 5 1 4 1 2 mbyte 3 1 2 1 44 mbyte needed features x11r4 intelligent installation program tcp ip built support motif , open look , dec supports clarkson \( crynwr \) packet drivers dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos micro x lite vendor starnet communications corporation lawrence santa clara , ca 95051 tel \( 408 \) 739 fax \( 408 \) 739 micro x starnet com prices 75 00 latest version 1 5 3 cpu 286 , 386 , 486 memory 640 kbytes operating system dos 3 1 higher mouse 2 3 button mouse ms compatible driver graphics ahead \( \) ati \( 18800 \) everex \( vp vga \) genoa \( 6400 \) paradise \( 11 30 \) stb \( em 16 \) trident \( 8800cs \) tseng labs \( et 3000 4000 \) video7 \( \) western digital \( 11 30 \) \( \) vesa others ethernet card 3com 503 505 523 3com etherlink mc cabletron 1 2 3000 micom interlan western digital novell ne 1000 2000 national semiconductor boards packet driver manufacturer network software included starnet tcp ip \( integrated \) ncsa telnet , ftp , lpr , packet drivers \( clarkson crynwr \) network software supported beame whiteside bw tcp ftp software pc tcp sun pc nfs disk space 2 mbytes 5 1 4 1 2 mbyte 3 1 2 1 44 mbyte needed features x11r4 intelligent installation program tcp ip built 8 clients screen time fixed font oriented \( variable fonts available \) support motif , open look , dec supports clarkson \( crynwr \) packet drivers dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos pc decwindows motif v3 0 vendor dennis pc decwindows development digital equipment corporation 30 porter rd , price latest version v3 0 cpu 286 , 386 memory 15 mbytes operating system ms dos mouse pointing device ms mouse v6 0 later interface graphics ega \( 16 color mono \) mcga vga \( 16 color mono \) enhanced vga \( 800x600 16 color mono \) 8514 \( 1024x768 16 256 color \) pseudo color visual ethernet card network software tcp ip decnet disk space features x11 release 4 server integrated virtual memory manager standard ibm compatible keyboards digital 's session manager client integrated server suspend session feature run dos commands font compiler adobe bitmap distribution files keysym compiler customize keyboard default keycode keysym mappings 70 pre defined keyboard mapping files configuration utility define hardware environment user preferences supports decnet tcp ip available dec dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos pc xview vendor network computing devices inc pc sw gemini drive beaverton , tel \( 800 \) 800 , \( 503 \) 641 2200 fax \( 503 \) 643 also 15 ncd technical sales offices around united states international offices price pc xview dos 445 00 1 1780 00 5 annual maintenance 150 00 1 450 00 5 update 125 00 1 375 00 5 latest version pc xview dos version 4 0 cpu 286 , 386 \( 386 recommended \) memory 1 mbyte \( 2 mbytes recommended \) operating system dos 3 2 higher mouse graphics cga , ega , vga , svga , xga , tiga 8514 video standard supported extended memory japanese graphics mode high resolution graphics boards , dell , hp , nec , , 50 based ethernet card 35 ethernet communications boards supported network software needed tcp ip decnet disk space 5 mbytes \( 7 mbytes recommended \) features unix application support traditional applications window managers motif open look loads graphics processing unix hosts hot key dos access local peripherals dos utilities easy well documented installation procedures pop control panel motif compliant local window manager ability run windows pif window hot key x dos \( longer exit \) tsr dpmi compatibility enhanced protocol tracing support xremote protocol dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos pc x windows vendor intelligent decisions inc 536 dr suite 2c sunnyvale , ca tel \( 408 \) 734 3730 fax \( 408 \) 734 price 295 latest version cpu 286 , 386 , 486 memory 1 mbyte \( recommended hi res lots pixmaps \) operating system dos 3 1 higher mouse ms compatible mouse graphics vga , svga ethernet card network software ftp software 's pc tcp wollongong 's win tcp disk space 4 mbytes hard disk features port mit x11r4 server shape extension mit magic cookie xdmcp font compiler fonts supplied motif , open look , decwindows \( vms ultrix \) demonstrated work server last year dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos pc xsight vendor pc xsight locus computing corporation 9800 la blvd , ca tel \( 800 \) 955 ca \( 213 \) 670 6500 uk 44 296 price latest version cpu 8088 , 8086 , 286 , 386 memory 640 kbytes base memory 512 kbytes available 896 kbytes extended memory operating system ms pc dos 3 1 later mouse 2 3 button mouse driver \( 3 button mouse recommend \) graphics ega , vga , hercules , 6300 ethernet card excelan 205 3com western digital micom multitech network software disk space 5 1 4 inch high density 3 1 2 inch diskette drive 1 mbyte features dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos sage 1280 adapter x windows display server vendor sigma designs , inc landing parkway fremont , ca tel \( 415 \) 770 0100 fax \( 415 \) 770 telex price latest version cpu 286 , 386 , 486 memory operating system dos 3 0 higher unix system v 386 mouse graphics high end fixed frequency 64 khz monitors ethernet card network software disk space features menu driven installation configuration program 1280x1024 resolution tiga 340 , 8514 ai emulation cga , mda , hercules , vga pass emulation modes 256 colors simultaneously palette 16 7 million dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos x vendor tel 44 \( \) price latest version cpu memory operating system mouse graphics ethernet card network software disk space features ibm clones allows x dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos vista exceed vendor control data corporation vista distributing computing largo drive west suite 250 , md tel \( 301 \) 808 price vista exceed vista exceed plus vista exceed plus latest version cpu 286 , 386 , 486 memory 640 kbytes 1 mbyte dos server 1 64 mbytes vista exceed plus vista exceed plus operating system ms dos pc dos 3 0 higher mouse 2 3 button ms compatible mouse graphics ega , vga , svga color analog monochrome monitor ethernet card supported tcp ip transports listed network software pc tcp network software dos ftp software inc pc nfs sun microsystems , inc win tcp dos group , inc pathway access dos group , inc lan workplace tcp ip transport system novell excelan 3 open tcp 3com corporation hp arpa services hewlett packard corporation net one tcp pc ungermann bass , inc telnet package beame whiteside software ltd disk space hard disk features may 16 mbytes available client processing emulates 3 button mouse 2 button mouse full interactive support x font names schemes locally modify keyboard mapping dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos x appeal vendor , italy fax 39 586 org \( 1 1 93 \) \( 1 1 93 \) price 350 quantity discounts 23 20 copies 39 50 copies 51 100 copies additional 30 discount educational institutions demo copies available anonymous ftp garbo uwasa fi pc demo zip \( readme executables \) pc demo zip \( local server fonts \) pc connect drivers zip \( packet drivers \) latest version 1 3 cpu 386sx higher memory 2 mbytes \( 4 mbytes recommended \) operating system ms dos 3 30 later mouse pointing device ms mouse compatible driver graphics svga boards 256 color mode ahead \( \) ati \( 18800 \) chips technologies \( \) genoa \( 6400 \) ncr \( \) oak technologies \( 067 \) paradise \( wd90c00 \) trident \( 8900 , 8900c \) tseng labs \( et3000 , et4000 \) western digital \( wd90c00 \) ethernet card model compatible packet drivers network software tcp ip included disk space least 2 mbytes features full x11r5 server implementation , including pex font server support screen painting exceeds 6000 xstones 1024x768 resolution \( 256 colors \) 386 33 without 387 support color classes \( , grayscale , staticcolor , pseudocolor , truecolor directcolor \) run time resolution switch panning virtual screen emulates 3 button mouse 2 button mouse fast cursor tracking full support european keyboard layouts memory limitation use virtual memory 32 bit protected mode dos extended application built tcp ip support , using packet driver ethernet board \( free packet driver collection included \) interactive configuration utility x display manager control protocol support \( hosts running xdm \) x authorization \( mit magic cookie 1 \) shape extension non rectangular windows font compiler rgb database utilities x11 fonts provided , including fonts sun open windows decwindows unix application support traditional applications window managers motif open look built rcp rsh server , allow file transfers execution useful dos functions without leaving x environment dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos x station vendor ca tel \( 408 \) 727 price latest version cpu 286 , 386 memory operating system mouse graphics ethernet card network software disk space features 8 clients dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos vendor jerry norman nth graphics , ltd tel \( 800 \) 624 x server project abandoned price cpu 286 , 386 memory operating system dos 3 3 higher mouse graphics ethernet card network software tcp ip disk space features supports 1280x1024 1024x768 resolution monitors 256 colors \( 16m \) hardware acceleration graphics text operations dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos xoftware dos vendor age logic , inc pacific heights blvd san diego , ca tel \( 619 \) 455 8600 , \( 619 \) 565 fax \( 619 \) 597 email sales age com bert tel \( 619 \) 455 8600 \( ext 104 \) email bert age com , age ! bert ucsd edu price 395 00 tcp ip 495 00 latest version cpu 286 , 386 , 486 memory 2 mbytes extended operating system dos 3 1 higher mouse 2 3 button mouse ms compatible driver graphics ega , vga , svga 8514 ethernet card compatible network software network software 3com 3 open tcp \( 1 2 higher \) dec pathworks tcp ip \( 1 1 higher \) ftp pc tcp \( 2 05 higher \) novell lan workplace \( 4 01 higher \) sun pc nfs \( 3 5 higher \) wollongong pathway access \( 2 05 higher \) disk space 2 mbytes 5 1 4 1 2 mbyte 3 1 2 1 44 mbyte floppy needed features mit compliant age extensions dos ms windows passive , telnet , rsh , rexec , xdmcp startup modes motif , openlook , decwindows support virtual screen support international keyboard support full font library snf format bdf snf font compiler complete documentation support update service dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos xoftware tiga dos vendor age logic , inc pacific heights blvd san diego , ca tel \( 619 \) 455 8600 , \( 619 \) 565 fax \( 619 \) 597 email sales age com bert tel \( 619 \) 455 8600 \( ext 104 \) email bert age com , age ! bert ucsd edu price 495 00 tcp ip 595 00 latest version cpu 286 , 386 , 486 memory 512 kbytes operating system dos 3 0 higher mouse 2 3 button mouse ms compatible driver graphics texas instruments based graphics accelerator tiga 2 0 higher whith dram ethernet card compatible network software network software 3com 3 open tcp \( 1 2 higher \) dec pathworks tcp ip \( 1 1 higher \) ftp pc tcp \( 2 05 higher \) novell lan workplace \( 4 01 higher \) sun pc nfs \( 3 5 higher \) wollongong pathway access \( 2 05 higher \) disk space 2 mbytes 5 1 4 1 2 mbyte 3 1 2 1 44 mbyte floppy needed features mit compliant age extensions dos ms windows passive , telnet , rsh , rexec , xdmcp startup modes motif , openlook , decwindows support virtual screen support international keyboard support full font library snf format bdf snf font compiler complete documentation support update service optimized tiga graphics accelerators dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos dos microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows desqview x vendor melinda quarterdeck office systems , inc 150 boulevard santa monica , ca 90405 tel \( 310 \) 392 fax \( 310 \) 399 price 275 latest version 1 0 cpu 386sx higher \( 286 version available \) memory 4 mbytes recommended operating system pc ms dos 3 0 higher dr dos 6 higher mouse ms compatible pointing device graphics ega vga super vga 8514 256 color ati 18800 28800 \( 800x600 \) c \( \) c \( 1024x768 \) tseng et3000 \( 800x600 \) tseng et4000 \( 1024x768 \) genoa 6400 \( 800x600 \) wd \( 640x480 \) wd90c00 \( 640x480 \) \( 800x600 \) revisions headland vega \( \) headland \( 1024x768 \) ethernet card network software disk space 40 mbyte hard drive features incorporates x desqview multi tasking dos environment adds graphical 3d look feel desqview gives users choice window managers \( look feels \) provides growth path character mode dos industry standard graphical user interfaces runs regular dos applications runs dos extended applications display dos applications within graphical windows dos applications x clients either locally remotely provides simple port applications x systems desqview x vice versa gives developers choice application appearances , based toolkit chosen supports toolkits provide features required developers push buttons , scrollbars , pop dialogue boxes , etc run dos text ms windows graphics programs locally remotely adobe type manager scalable fonts scalable dos windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows excursion windows vendor digital equipment corporation maynard , massachusetts price latest version 1 0 cpu 286 , 386 , 486 memory 2 mbytes operating system dos ms windows 3 0 later mouse ms windows supported mouse graphics ms windows supported card ethernet card network software decnet pathworks dos tcp ip pathworks dos \( tcp ip \) tcp ip pc tcp ftp software , inc tcp ip 3com tcp demand protocol architecture disk space 7 15 mbytes hard desk 3 5 720 5 25 1 2 mbyte floppy drive features seperate application windows x displayed x server excursion setup utility installing excursion ms windows control provides easy way start x applications customize environment online help ability cut paste text graphics x ms windows ability compile new fonts ability redefine keys keyboard personal password security access excursion three button mouse emulation microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows exodus ms windows vendor white pine software , inc 40 simon street , suite 201 nashua , hn 3043 tel \( 603 \) 886 fax \( 603 \) 886 email com applelink price 449 latest version cpu 286 , 386 , 486 memory 2 mbytes \( 4 mbytes recommended \) operating system dos ms windows 3 0 higher mouse recommended graphics ega , vga , svga , ethernet card cards network software disk space features x11r4 color monochrome x screen support including 24bit truecolor backing store save options full xdmcp support access control support online help 3 button mouse emulation text graphics transfers ms windows macintosh microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows hcl exceed w vendor hummingbird communications ltd john street , unit 4 , ontario , canada 5g3 tel \( 416 \) 470 1203 fax \( 416 \) 470 1207 price 595 1 copy 536 2 4 copies 476 5 9 copies 417 10 copies latest version cpu 286 , 386 , 486 memory 2 mbytes recommended operating system dos ms windows version 3 \( standard 386 enhanced modes \) mouse ms compatible pointing device graphics ega , vga , vga ethernet card compatible networking product choose network software disk space features makes full use 8514 high resolution graphics cards redesigned ms windows \( implementation mit x \) copy paste x windows ms windows interactive configuration utility full interactive support font naming alias schemes font compiler log file host generated messages backing store save virtual screen support seven start methods full support european keyboards font , host access rgb databases loading x protocol trace functionality microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows micro x win vendor starnet communications lawrence santa clara , ca 95051 tel \( 408 \) 739 fax \( 408 \) 739 micro x starnet com prices micro x win 425 00 1 unit 300 00 ea 5 pack \( greater discount larger quantities \) upgrades 25 original price educational discount 10 latest version 2 2 1 x11 release 5 cpu 386 , 486 memory 4 mbytes operating system ms dos 3 1 higher ms windows 3 1 higher mouse 2 3 button ms compatible driver graphics ms windows supported cards ethernet card 3com 503 505 523 3com etherlink mc cabletron 1 2 3000 micom interlan western digital novell ne 1000 2000 national semiconductor boards packet driver manufacturer network software included \( winsock compatible \) network software supported ftp software pc tcp sun pc nfs winsock compatible tcp ip stacks disk space 5 mbytes 5 1 4 1 2 mbyte 3 1 2 1 44 mbyte needed features x11r5 integrated rsh rexec displayed results auto start xdmcp rsh rexec easy additional session start panning supports motif , open look , decwindows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows x vendor computer systems ltd cheshire house , castle street , cheshire , england , tel corporation 108 whispering pines drive , suite 115 scotts valley , california tel \( 408 \) 438 , \( 800 \) 359 fax \( 408 \) 438 price latest version cpu memory operating system dos ms windows mouse graphics ethernet card network software rs 232 direct connections , rs 232 modem connections , , beame whiteside tcp ip , link tcp ip dos , ftp pc tcp , hp arpa services dos , ibm aix access dos users , icl \( int 5b \) , locus pci , locus tcp ip dos , ms lan manager unix , ms lan manager unix v2 1 , ncr token ring , novell lan workplace dos , sco xenix net , sun pc nfs , ungermann bass net one , ungermann one \( \) , wollongong pathway access dos , wollongong win tcp dos , 3 com 3 open tcp disk space features provides character server character applications emulation dec vt100 , dec vt220 , dec , sco unix xenix console , x open ansi , interactive unix console , unix console automatically invokes x server x client selected passive , telnet , rsh , rexec , xdmcp startup modes supported full x11r4 font library provided standard windows format bdf windows compiler copy paste text available single iconic desktop microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows pc xview vendor network computing devices inc pc sw gemini drive beaverton , tel \( 800 \) 800 , \( 503 \) 641 2200 fax \( 503 \) 643 also 15 ncd technical sales offices around united states international offices price pc xview windows 445 00 1 1780 00 5 annual maintenance 150 00 1 450 00 5 update 125 00 1 375 00 5 latest version 3 1 cpu 286 , 386 \( 386 recommended \) memory 2 mbytes \( 4 mbytes recommended \) operating system ms dos pc dos 3 0 higher ms windows 3 0 3 1 windows nt mouse recommended needed graphics compatible ms windows ethernet card network software needed tcp ip decnet disk space 7 mbytes \( 10 mbytes recommended \) features runs ms windows applications alongside x clients cut paste x clients ms windows applications using windows clipboard full support x11r4 features , including shape extension loads graphics processing host computers runs standard enhanced modes ms windows manages x clients standard remote window manager ms windows full x11 fonts provided , including fonts sun open windows decwindows windows based compiler converts bitmap description format bdf fonts ms windows format \( \) fonts windows based file transfer program prints files remote host local printer built client starter windows based installation configuration support network interfaces easy installation procedures x display manager control protocol \( xdmcp \) support support multiple tcp ip network packages comprehensive well organized user 's guide graphics cut paste virtual screen support support xremote protocol \( developed ncd \) microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows vista exceed vendor control data corporation vista distributing computing largo drive west suite 250 , md tel \( 301 \) 808 price vista exceed w latest version cpu 286 , 386 , 486 memory 2 mbytes ms windows server operating system dos 3 0 higher ms windows 3 0 mouse 2 3 button ms compatible mouse ms windows supported mouse graphics ega , vga , svga supported ms windows ethernet card supported tcp ip transports listed network software pc tcp network software dos ftp software inc pc nfs sun microsystems , inc win tcp dos group , inc pathway access dos group , inc lan workplace tcp ip transport system novell excelan 3 open tcp 3com corporation hp arpa services hewlett packard corporation net one tcp pc ungermann bass , inc telnet package beame whiteside software ltd disk space hard disk features may 16 mbytes available client processing emulates 3 button mouse 2 button mouse full interactive support x font names schemes locally modify keyboard mapping microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows x11 vendor inference machines , inc computer products division east avenue anaheim , ca tel \( 714 \) 978 6201 \( 714 \) 978 fax \( 714 \) 939 price latest version cpu 286 , 386 , 486 memory 640 kbytes base memory 2 mbytes extended memory operating system ms dos 3 1 later ms windows 3 0 later mouse graphics graphics card supports ms windows ega vga resolution , better , recommended cga \( color graphics adapter \) compaq portable iii portable 386 plasma display ega high resolution color display ega whith low resolution color display hercules high resolution monochrome display ibm 8514 display olivetti monochrome pvc display olivetti display high resolution monochrome viking monochrome vga \( video graphics array \) ethernet card also compatible excelan , 3com , ungermann bass , western digital , , 's x pac , others network software either excelan 's tcp ip driver set ftp inc pc tcp driver set \( included x11 \) disk space least 2 5 mbytes storage capacity available x11 software , excluding optional x fonts use x fonts supplied x11 , total 5 5 mbytes required features concurrent ms dos x windows operation concurrent x windows telnet operation cut paste utility , ftp utility font compiler user developed fonts telnet ftp utilities included compatible following ftp software programs , operated ms windows ftp , file transfer protocol client , file transfer protocol server , network file system \( nfs \) ping , network test , telnet virtual terminal client microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows x one vendor 1485 saratoga avenue san jose , ca tel \( 800 \) 426 2230 7 30 5 00 pst , \( 408 \) 466 1919 fax \( 408 \) 446 0666 uunet ! ! sales price \( free demo copies \) latest version cpu 386 , 486 memory 2 mbytes operating system dos 3 1 higher ms windows mouse 2 3 button mouse graphics vga super vga tiga vga boards s3 chip set ethernet card network software 's tcp ip included disk space features x11r4 screen setup builtin tcp ip supports local clients telnet vt100 window , setup window , rsh window , local window manager dos windows versions one product hot key dos 90 days telephone technical support microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows xvision vendor limited white pine xvision 57 lane exodus windows leeds 40 simon street , suite 201 united kingdom nashua , hn 3043 tel \( \) tel \( 603 \) 886 44 532 fax \( 603 \) 886 fax \( \) com 44 532 applelink co uk price 449 00 1 users 9100 00 30 users 1800 00 5 users 00 40 users 3600 00 10 users 00 50 users 00 20 users educational discounts available adding user least 10 installed 275 00 xremote support per pc bundled 95 00 upgrade 150 00 full documentation 60 00 evaluation copy 60 00 latest version 4 1 cpu 286 , 386 , 486 memory 2 mbytes \( 4 mbytes recommended \) operating system dos 3 0 later ms windows 3 0 later mouse recommended required graphics ms windows compatible graphics ethernet card network software ftp pc tcp excelan lan workplace dos locus tcp ip dos ungermann bass net one tcp pc wollongong win tcp dos beame whiteside tcp ip sun pc nfs hp lan manager \( arpa services dos \) 3com 3 open disk space 5 1 4 inch high density 3 1 2 inch high density features copy paste x ms windows use host window manager allow ms windows control x clients support color classes \( , grayscale , staticcolor , pseudocolor , truecolor directcolor \) several user options performance enhancement x11 release 5 server fonts server extensions including xdmcp icccm compliant x clients may also use ms windows fonts easy configuration system via dialog boxes provides functionality three button mouse support international keyboards supported windows host access control network aware setup line help iconic control panel configuring xvision dynamic server \( xvision runs tests pc install time see best draw display \) support ncd xremote , decnet , shape extension , 24 bit color , ms windows font managers , color classes , rsh , rexec microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows xoftware vendor age logic , inc pacific heights blvd san diego , ca tel \( 619 \) 455 8600 , \( 619 \) 565 fax \( 619 \) 597 email sales age com bert tel \( 619 \) 455 8600 \( ext 104 \) email bert age com , age ! bert ucsd edu price 495 00 tcp ip 595 00 latest version cpu 386 , 486 memory 2 mbytes extended operating system dos 3 1 higher windows 3 0 higher mouse ms windows compatible mouse graphics card ms windows driver ethernet card network software beame whiteside tcp ip \( 2 2 higher \) ftp pc tcp \( 2 05 higher \) dec pathworks \( 4 0 higher \) hp arpa services \( 2 1 higher \) novell lan workplace \( 4 01 higher \) sun pc nfs \( 3 5 higher \) ungermann bass net one tcp \( 16 5 higher \) wollongong pathway access \( 4 1 1 higher \) wollongong win tcp \( 1 1 higher \) 3com 3 open tcp \( 1 2 higher \) disk space 2 mbytes 5 1 4 1 2 mbyte 3 1 2 1 44 mbyte floppy needed features mit compliant age extensions context sensitive line help system cut paste x ms windows start x applications ms windows icons single multiple window modes ms window manager used x applications virtual screen 32 , 767 32 , 767 passive , telnet , rsh , rexec , xdmcp startup modes backing store save motif , openlook , decwindows support full font library format bdf ms windows font compiler log file optionally saves system messages tutorial x window system microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows microsoft windows os 2 os 2 os 2 os 2 os 2 os 2 os 2 os 2 os 2 os 2 os 2 os 2 os 2 ibm x windows os 2 vendor ibm solutions center voice 1 800 ibm call fax 1 303 440 price 150 plus 200 ibm tcp ip os 2 \( required \) latest version version 1 2 1 part number \( x windows \) \( tcp ip \) cpu 386sx higher memory 6 mbytes recommended \( 4 minimum \) operating system ibm os 2 2 0 higher mouse os 2 compatible pointing device graphics ega , vga , super vga , 8514 , xga , os 2 supported card ethernet card compatible os 2 \( ndis \) network software ibm tcp ip \( required \) disk space 80 mbyte hard drive features incorporates x os 2 advanced pc operating system provides full x11r4 server , x font library , x font compiler , x client utilities runs another object workplace shell \( \) desktop cut paste os 2 , dos , windows applications running os 2 full tcp ip implementation including ftp , telnet , , ping , finger , slip , rsh , remote printing , bootp , vt100 220 , many modules available , including nfs , programmer 's toolkit \( includes kerberos , rpc , dpi , ncs , ftp api , sockets api , api \) , os 2 os 2 os 2 os 2 os 2 os 2 os 2 os 2 os 2 os 2 os 2 os 2 os 2 macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh exodus vendor white pine software , inc 40 simon street , suite 201 nashua , hn 3043 tel \( 603 \) 886 fax \( 603 \) 886 email com applelink price 295 latest version 3 0 cpu macintosh computers exodus ii runs macintosh computers 68020 68030 processor floating point co processor memory 2 mbytes operating system version 6 0 later version 6 0 3 later plan use communications toolbox network connections mouse graphics ethernet card network software tcp ip mactcp apple computer , inc \( part \) tcp ip lan workplace novell , inc \( formerly host access \) decnet software systems , inc \( special version distributed part \) decnet community mac distributed everex , inc decnet decnet macintosh \( part pathworks digital equipment corporation \) adsp pathworks distributed digital equipment corporation appletalk disk space features supports multifinder ux , clients server run macintosh macintosh operating system , clients run another computer conforms macintosh human interface guidelines user standard macintosh pull menus functions macintosh program macintosh operating system handles macintosh events use normal macintosh environment macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macx vendor apple computer , inc cupertino , ca 95014 tel \( 408 \) 996 1010 171 576 apple dealer \( , , etc \) price macx order c \? \? macx manual set order b \? \? macx 1 1 7 update product order \? \? mac x x11 site license order c \? \? latest version 1 2 cpu macintosh memory 2 mbytes operating system system software 6 0 5 later mouse graphics 1 bit 8 bit graphics ethernet card network software localtalk , ethernet disk space least two floppy disks 6 0 5 later 3 5 mbytes hard disk tor 7 0 features x11 release 4 server icccm compatible cut paste text graphics macintosh x11 shape extension \( including shaped windows macintosh desktop \) optional built icccm compliant window manager built bdf font compiler built standard colormaps built window managers support system software version 7 0 support multiple monitors copy paste text graphics macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh macintosh amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga unknown vendor price latest version cpu memory operating system mouse graphics ethernet card network software disk space features amiga 3000 machines offer x server open look tools libraries full svr4 implementation amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga x window system version 11 release amiga computer vendor gfxbase , inc dale luck 1881 drive milpitas , ca tel \( 408 \) 262 1469 fax \( 408 \) 262 usenet ! dale bix duck amiga ! ! dale bloom beacon mit edu price 395 00 \( 90 00 yearly maintenance fee \) latest version 4 1 cpu amigados computer a2000 a4000 a500 memory 1 mbyte server 640x400 2 color display ram required local clients operating system amigados operating system v1 3 later mouse amiga 2 button mouse , optical 3 button mouse , tablet , trackball , international keyboard graphics ntsc \( 60hz \) , pal \( 50 hz \) , genlock supported viking 1 \( 60hz \) , 1024x1024 \( \) super screens smaller display productivity screen 640x480 60hz noninterlaced \( \) two colors palette 4096 selected cursor two separately controlled colors color server 2 , 4 , 8 , 16 , 32 colors 4096 viking 1 4 gray scales resolutions restricted 640x480 , 800x600 , noninterlaced 256 16m 1280x1024 , 1600x1280 noninterlaced 256 16m ethernet card commodore network software commodore tcp ip decnet ethernet serial connections , local disk space 7 14 mbytes features contains x11r4 clients , fonts , etc amiga xpr uses standard amiga printer device technology supports 50 different types printers black white color r4 monochrome color servers optional programmer 's toolkit includes header files , libraries , sample programs optional mwm window manager optional toolkits widgets motif , xview , hp amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga amiga atari atari atari atari atari atari atari atari atari atari atari atari atari x tos window server x tos window server color vendor x software michael x tos division 8 w germany tel 49 fax 49 email xsoft uucp price x tos window server \( tos computers \) dm 1 , 00 x tos window server color \( tos computers \) dm 1 , 498 00 option 030 \( 68030 68040 processors \) dm 98 00 x tos window server color option 030 option pex b overseas order handling dm 100 00 none ec european order handling dm 50 00 latest version 502 cpu atari mega st , ste , tt 68000 68040 memory 2 mbytes \( 4 mbytes recommended \) operating system tos 1 4 higher mouse atari mouse graphics x tos window server monochrome , monochrome \( tt , \) x tos window server color monochrome , monochrome \( tt , \) color color color color ethernet card atari card \( mega vme bus \) \( mega vme bus \) end enclosure peter j mckinney pm860605 longs lance colostate edu laboratory fluid mechanics wind engineering program civil engineering department colorado state university
icf hrb com \( jeffrey weber \) subject xview , sun xgl , performance problem organization hrb systems , inc lines 16 've written application sparcstation 2 gx , openwindows 3 0 application uses xview stuff create window , sun xgl graphics library rendering canvas application real time 2 animation , update display fast enough i'm using notify set \( xview call \) periodically kick update routine , 's happening fast enough want update 25 times second 's 11 also , appears compute bound , run anything else , update rate slows even ideas \? thanks
siap org \( \( \) \) subject dump login screen keywords dump reply siap org organization siap p lines 23 nntp posting host i'm running hp ux 8 07 hp vue 2 01 need hardcopy login window \( one asking login password \) include manual tried xwd display hostname 0 root login xwd login remote terminal , n't work xwd seems wait window server , window server n't answer suggestions \? must use xwd n't access ftp ca n't obtain another program grab screen thanks advance siap p via g b , 93 milano italy e mail siap org
farrow ucsu colorado edu \( j scott farrow \) subject looking x windows pc keywords ibm pc , x windows , windows nntp posting host fido colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 39 mark taylor uucp \( mark davis \) writes markw pspmf3 gpsemi com \( mark wilkinson ext 3443 \) writes performance suck lemons running xserver clone \( experience \) would much better xterminal new install performance least four times better addition would much easier install use top cost \( price clone 4mb ram , ethernet card , high performance graphics card , good monitor , server software , tcp ip clone software , mouse , keyboard , etc , etc , etc spend whole lot \) get 15 tektronix xp11 terminals 900 , performance 80000 xstones mark davis lake taylor hospital norfolk , va \( 804 \) 461 5001x431 sys administrator computer services mark taylor mark taylor uucp think performance depend upon x server i'm running linux xfree86 33mhz 486dx 4mb ram \( 8mb swap \) runs fine lot better crappy old xterminals labs school anyway could probably outfit 386sx minimal linux x setup 900 better xterminal imho scott j scott farrow student sysadmin programmer , university colorado computing network services , boulder , colorado , usa , phone \( 303 \) 492 internet farrow spot colorado edu linux users free
root columbiasc ncr com \( ernie \) subject xterm fonts nntp posting host columbiasc ncr com organization ncr corporation e columbia lines 41 article 1993may11 taylor uucp , mark taylor uucp \( mark davis \) writes problem many might run use lots ascii terminals use max meaning lots attributes , line draw , etc need come working xterm emulate advanced ascii terminals closely possible means needing attributes work , including bold line drawing fonts seem meet criteria pairs fonts one bold normal , , fixed spacing , several sizes standard fonts work fonts like misc work great , except need font one size larger , 10x20 10x20 works well , bold counterpart ! make matters worse , need fonts form use tektronix xterminals seems like pcf format , although able convert bdf format anyone suggestions \? mark davis lake taylor hospital norfolk , va \( 804 \) 461 5001x431 sys administrator computer services mark taylor mark taylor uucp would tedious , time could get bdf file \( email n't n't easy access x source \) , could make bold font since glyph bitmap , could write program convert glyph bitmap readable file , use bitmap make glyph bold , convert results back bdf format , use bdftopcf create pcf file , stick pcf usr lib x11 fonts misc \( wherever \) include fonts dir , voila , 'll need ! ernie \( 803 \) 926 2071 ncr corporation columbia ernie columbiasc ncr com platt springs road west columbia , sc i'm busting every night tell old man drag walton court 48 minutes roger murdoch , co pilot
barmar think com \( barry margolin \) subject twm organization thinking machines corporation , cambridge , usa lines 21 nntp posting host think com article 1993may12 samba oit unc edu naoumov physics unc edu \( sergei naoumov \) writes run twm would like execute program leaving twm words would like run program f quit possible make menu section would contain two parts \? menu definition , put quit twm f function execute quit define function execute quit ! program f quit barry margolin system manager , thinking machines corp barmar think com uunet , harvard ! think ! barmar
scott frost cas org \( scott frost \) subject draw mode color organization chemical abstracts service lines 21 draw object specified color objects varying colors erase without redraw everything else \? 's happening , draw using gxcopy , drawn specified color erase using gxcopy foreground background reversed , erases whatever need redraw items crossed draw using drawn random color nothing resembling requested properly restores color underlying objects erase mode 's solution \? scott k frost uucp osu cis ! ! scott frost bitnet cas inet scott frost cas org personal shrewsbury rd , upper arlington oh
list applelink apple com \( list , \) subject modal dialog organization internet lines 37 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu hi , lots problems using xview \( libraries release 3 2 \) order following want create modal dialog block program flow \( dialog , ala macintosh \) , notice panel , text item , list item , xview objects modal dialog also must allows timer called \( notice n't \? \) problems using xv window loop functions xview objects dont work \( list item \) , timers n't called notify dispatch explicit problem never attempt direct within callback routine say xview programming manual \( third edition \) page 486 \( know number ! ! ! \) need inside callback routine ! help , please ! ! ! thanks advance , p please , send replay directly address \( n't direct access internet \) list p p za dei , 10 fax \( 050 \) email address list applelink apple com beware address shared many users , put word start subject field follow real subject thanks
pngai adobe com \( phil ngai \) subject looking x windows pc keywords ibm pc , x windows , windows organization adobe systems incorporated lines 8 article 1993may12 qdeck com support qdeck com \( technical support \) writes may humbly suggest desqview x \? \( course , i'm biased \) weird , oddball , one kind video card 's orchid fahrenheit get run 640x480 dvx least n't worry straining eyes super vga stuff
gowen forte cs tufts edu \( gregory owen \) subject sun 4 x terminal reply ee ubc ca 's message wed , 12 may 1993 22 15 46 gmt organization tufts university department computer science lines 19 xkernel available sun 3 50s similar package available public domain \? yes , one obtain copy \? yes , available ftp ctr columbia edu , probably pub xkernel response earlier question , could theoretically recompile xkernel sun4 binaries available sun3 50 , author says could used architectures , 'do type distribution use xkernel 7 machines email questions help greg owen gowen forte cs tufts edu , gowen jade tufts edu systems programmer ta , tufts university computer science dept personal info gcs go p c l g w w r x
bills feenix metronet com \( bill scott \) subject online help motif widget \? organization tx metronet communications services , dallas tx lines 28 article 1993may12 serval net wsu edu d3e758 bucky pnl gov \( je pelkey \) writes looking online help motif widgets \( public domain otherwise \) run sun sparc 'd especially interested help widgets integrate hypertext help , graphics , etc anybody know widgets like \? text graphics bristol technologies help clone help frame \( makers framemaker \) text graphical software technology xtra widgets \( includes help \) probably others \( check ics widget data book \) actually wrote one last company worked however locked internal reuse library \( good one ! \( imho totally unbiased view things \) \) bill scott bills metronet com hi graphics consultant wk 817 967 american airlines
olav nordic offshore \( jan olav \) subject ics widget data book organization nos lines 23 anyone know obtain information ics widget data book \? email address , n't seem reading \( replying \) mail ! jan olav , software engineer systems administrator ! ! snail mail ! email ! ! nordic offshore systems ! olav nordic offshore ! ! drilling information services ! voice ! ! 3 , box 185 ! \( 47 \) ext 211 ! ! 1321 ! fax ! ! norway ! \( 47 \) ! ! n't believe astrology i'm , ! ! n't believe astrology ! ! jan olav , software engineer systems administrator ! ! snail mail ! email ! ! nordic offshore systems ! olav nordic offshore !
pannon bcsfse ca boeing com \( joe pannon \) subject geometry font units place pixels organization project boeing computer services , seattle , wa lines 13 planning convert motif 1 2 app pixel font units would set app 's resource file instead hard coded program however , word people tried already unknown reason offsets placed resource file still interpreted pixel units forcing people code offset font units program somebody confirm \? thanks , joe pannon pannon bcsfse ca boeing com
koblas netcom com \( david koblas \) subject button 3 popup menus athena widgets organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 15 ok , i'm driven batty trying create popup menus \( ie press , menu appears \) would really like use standard athena classes achieve goal , best attempts cannot get menus come without using menubutton parent widget tree know possible \( \) little , something escaping name david koblas domain koblas netcom com affiliation extra mile consulting phone 47 \( 83 \) quote time little infinity jelly donuts
mufti uucp \( saad mufti \) subject tool convert gif file xpm pixmap format organization personal library software inc , rockville md lines 12 need tool described subject line tool available via ftp \? , 'd appreciate someone could e mail location pathname thanks saad mufti personal library software e mail mufti pls com
tan lynx msc cornell edu uucp \( david tan , box 219 baker lab , , \) subject ignorant imake xfig question originator tan msc cornell edu organization cornell materials science center lines 23 hi folks , i'm trying compile xfig 2 1 7 ss1 running sunos 4 1 1 ow 2 0 , i'm little trouble make imake specifically , make bombs needs use xaw file n't surprising since x11 files suns standard ow 2 0 distribution various places usr openwin \( xaw files usr openwin share include x11 xaw ! ! \) actually , real problem know squat imake , n't know tell imake x11 files see makefile 's looking wrong places , first line makefile reads makefile generated imake edit ! help ! way edit imakefile tell look \? \( set defines bug , said readme file \) email post fine thanks advance , dave
loria fr \( julian \) subject x11r5 solbourne organization crin inria lorraine lines 14 hi netters , inherited solbourne \( 4000 sun 4 compatible \) , wondering somebody ported x11r5 beast since computer inc folded n't know get kernel move r4 since never joined mit consortium , regular distribution n't work pointers highly appreciated julian \) \( \( \( \( \( \( julian loria loria fr
csi com \( \) subject x screen saver organization systems inc lines 15 hi ! question directly related x screen saver x screen saver blank screen idle time n't want screen go blank get locked call xlock program parallel call \( \) locks screen call lock program certain amount idle time \? way find long server idle \? thanks \( csi com \)
kin lap upenn edu \( kevin j \) subject looking x windows pc keywords ibm pc , x windows , windows organization university pennsylvania , language analysis center lines 19 nntp posting host kin lap upenn edu article gpsemi com wilkinson roborough gpsemi com writes hi , first time 've posted net , hope going right people i'm looking software packages run ibm pc clone allows display openlook motif windows pc highly recommend starnet 's micro x versions dos windows , support pc tcp , clarkson packet drivers used successfully twm , mwm , olwm , ethernet slip tech support top notch really impressed kevin kevin j \( kin lap upenn edu \) monkey boys evil lead programmer analyst lord supreme univ pennsylvania language analysis center 3700 market st , suite 202 phila , pa non jerk
mitre org \( steven chase \) subject uimx motif application generator reply ptm xact demon co uk 's message tue , 11 may 1993 15 28 07 gmt lines 29 nntp posting host mitre org organization mitre corp mclean va lines 29 article 1993may11 xact demon co uk ptm xact demon co uk \( paul thomas mahoney \) writes newsgroups comp windows x path linus mitre org ! linus ! agate ! howland reston ans net ! torn ! nott ! ! bnr co uk ! uknet ! warwick ! qmw dcs ! qmw ! demon ! xact demon co uk ! ptm ptm xact demon co uk \( paul thomas mahoney \) organization x act solutions limited x newsreader tin 1 1 pl3 date tue , 11 may 1993 15 28 07 gmt lines 8 looking information regarding uimx believe application front end generator tool motif \( among others \) someone given contact \? need get hold guide , something like paul mahoney , x act solutions limited smail 20 shipley lane , , sea , east sussex , email ptm xact demon co uk cix compulink co uk phone 44 424 went convention ny talked people make uimx sent huge 3 ring binder info demo tape let know need steve chase mitre org
rtsg mot com \( eric \) subject looking x windows pc keywords ibm pc , x windows , windows nntp posting host organization motorola inc , cellular infrastructure group lines 16 pm860605 longs lance colostate edu \( peter j mckinney \) writes price pc xview dos 445 00 1 1780 00 5 ncd announced new generation pc xview changed name little though ca n't remember exactly pc supports windows press release implies since 's still priced 500 range 's feature full buy anything else \? \( disclaimer direct quote literature , think sums also , never used product \)
kbw helios ath epa gov \( kevin b weinrich \) subject make window 's input caps without caps lock \? organization computer sciences corp lines 15 distribution world nntp posting host helios ath epa gov application must use requires upper case input 'd like able simply move cursor window application running \( text window , xterm \) everything type entered caps cursor many windows , want automatically return normal functionality point type set way x \( specifically ow 3 0 sparcs \) \? way mess xdefaults make category window \? hints would appreciated program c x , although pick somthing 's involved thanks kindly kevin weinrich computer sciences corp kbw helios ath epa gov
nntp posting host bones et byu edu lines 27 bones et byu edu \( robin \) distribution world organization brigham young university , provo ut usa subject resource listing x11r5 keywords x11r5 , resources anyone know source \( book , file , etc \) standard resource names x11r5 \? small description resource would also helpful , vital help direction go would greatly appreciated thanks robin office home brigham young university college engineering technology robin r 270 clyde building 1080 e 700 n provo , ut 84602 provo , ut phone \( 801 \) 378 phone \( 801 \) 373 email bones et byu edu bruce owen lee pay price brigham young university count cost college engineering technology email lee bones et byu edu rush
ani univie ac \( bernhard \) subject announce xm commoninteract ui development sys organization vienna university computer center , austria lines 157 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xannounce expo lcs mit edu xm commoninteract another user interface development system would like implement x toolkit applications c style like mini sample application class test public void cmd \( char \) void quit \( void \) public test \( \) \( xm test window \) void initialize \( \) void test initialize \( \) menu \( \) menu \( file \) menu \( entry \( menu item one , cb \( test cmd \) \) , entry \( menu item two , cb \( test cmd \) \) , \) menu \( \) menu \( entry \( e xit , cb \( test quit \) \) \) \( edit , \) edit \( \) \( hello world \) void test cmd \( char n \) edit \( \) \( n \) void test quit \( void \) exit \( 0 \) void initialize \( \) \( new test \) initialize \( \) continue reading \( contents current release 's readme \) xm user interface framework c language built upon x11 x toolkit designed simple intuitive programming interface access functionality commonly used widgets xm initially created motif widget set , support athena widgets added applications created xm run environments without changes , although many nice features available using motif situations xm extends underlying toolkit \( e providing borrowed ms windows \) , never tries replace data user interface objects left widgets duplicated rare cases xm nothing common motif besides general idea motif widgets c objects ' ' 's name many ideas xm architecture came 's smalltalk version , provides easy use framework windows pm mac applications \( first time development used windows dialog editor simple parser create similar smalltalk xm dialogs \) top level objects xm , use automatic layout feature various composite widgets motif xaw individually laid user interface builder \( first version dialog editor included distribution \) controls \( children top level objects \) , , , , , , , , , , , button classes display b w \( x bitmap format \) color \( gif format \) pictures alternative label text event handling done simple powerful mechanism xt callbacks member functions xm objects commoninteract \( ii \) built upon xm drawing class provides components building direct manipulative applications simplified implementation features commoninteract system \( research project institute 1991 \) , approach define software implementing direct manipulative applications multiple interaction media \( e sound , alternative input devices \) interrested , look june 1993 issue \( sigs publications journal object oriented programming \) paper commoninteract \( aware , 'state 1991 \) commoninteract \( ii \) still undocumented included used implement dialog editor currently supports drawing primitives \( lines , rectangles , circles \) , plan extend support bitmaps controls also known problem xm drawing class redrawing strategy \( always redraws whole window , even minimal changes like selecting object \) , looks ugly slow displays fixed first release xm still incomplete lot bugs using smaller applications running without problems think call used develop applications non critical purposes commoninteract may called alpha 's development continued year plan use another research project besides incompleteness redrawing problem seems stable used experimental applications platforms release compiled tested hp9000 720 running hp ux 8 07 sun sparc running sunos release 4 1 1 pc running linux v0 caution although whole stuff initially developed using standard c compiler release tested gnu g 2 3 3 \( next release tested compilers \) get uploaded export lcs mit edu contrib xm 0 5 tar z \( send mail , cannot find , e mail addr \) find information doc directory contains install build libraries examples readme gnu problems limitations using gnu g \( read ! ! \) txt tutorial use xm reference txt first try xm class reference manual readme files samples gives brief description seven samples xm commoninteract free software non profit purposes , see file lib copyright details send comments , bug reports donations \) author bernhard vienna user interface group institute applied computer science information systems university vienna 2 8 , 1080 wien , austria e mail ani univie ac
fred sobel u fr \( frederic pierre \) subject q xterm lines 12 hello , i'm looking good explanation example usefulness option xterm slave mode file descriptor xxx sure , xterm seem grab arrives window ding \? tia fred frederic pierre 7 rue de f strasbourg france tel \( 33 \) 88 35 80 84 fax \( 33 \) 88 35 31 76 e mail fred sobel u fr
hasty netcom com \( amancio hasty jr \) subject looking x windows pc keywords ibm pc , x windows , windows organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 42 article 1993may13 taylor uucp mark taylor uucp \( mark davis \) writes farrow ucsu colorado edu \( j scott farrow \) writes mark taylor uucp \( mark davis \) writes markw pspmf3 gpsemi com \( mark wilkinson ext 3443 \) writes performance suck lemons running xserver clone clone almost name generating xstones 486 33mhz system get 15 tektronix xp11 terminals 900 , performance 80000 xstones i'm running linux xfree86 33mhz 486dx 4mb ram \( 8mb swap \) runs fine lot better crappy old xterminals labs school anyway come even close performance series , plus excuse , 486 50 256k cache , s3 928 isa card , 8mb \( x11r5 \) running 386bsd get 100k xstones 1024x768 doubt series gets commerical x servers s3 928 cards get xstones performance additionally since running unix multiple users use system done home setup maintenance minimal read readme files x servers 386bsd amancio hasty message brought letters x number 3 amancio hasty home \( 415 \) 495 3046 ftp site work e mail hasty netcom com epa gov pub 386bsd incoming
com \( \) subject tvtwm icon manager organization unisys open systems group , san jose lines 22 article risky com , com \( \) writes keywords tvtwm icon manager need help resource bindings tvtwm 's 'd like see icon manager say window shows icon list pan another section virtual desktop try window \( sp \? \) earlier , 'd like window current region resources use \? important , \? rather find painful remember iconified window , go back simply , pain pan around get window thanks , com opened distribution
hoswell alumni cs colorado edu \( mike hoswell \) subject way stop application \? nntp posting host alumni cs colorado edu organization climate global dynamics ncar , boulder co lines 17 i'm quite familiar variety window title setting methods question way \( via resources , etc \) stop application 's ability name 's name properties \? cares 's application want control ! \) mike mike hoswell hoswell ncar ucar edu never stop ! bagels climate global dynamics disclaimer represent ncar , po box 3000 , boulder co , 80307 've got going nice think clearly
ca \( tanya \) subject help ! organization internet lines 15 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu beginning try using athena toolkit problems getting started think files missing system , possibility different directory try link program ca n't find , xtrealizewidget , xtmainloop , xtcreatemanagedwidget , 've included intrinsic h command h also problem compile replaced null order compile see problems n't used toolkit simply example got manuel someone tell might look calls , , file directory supposed system manager n't believe standard directories generally things way \( using unix \) thank assistance j
stu vax1 acs jmu edu \( joseph w shelby \) subject x11r5 server decstation 5000 2 0 5 sans decnet organization james madison university x news reader vms news 1 24 lines 9 anybody built x11r5 server run personal decstation 5000 line ultrix 4 3 \? catch personal machines , install decnet onto , server gatekeeper requires replies welcome joe shelby stu vax1 acs jmu edu
ptm xact demon co uk \( paul thomas mahoney \) subject uimx motif application generator organization x act solutions limited x newsreader tin 1 1 pl3 lines 7 thanks responses 've made contact uk distributor \) paul mahoney , x act solutions limited smail 20 shipley lane , , sea , east sussex , email ptm xact demon co uk cix compulink co uk phone 44 424
earle isolar tujunga ca us \( greg earle \) subject blinking cursor xterm \? \? \? organization personal usenet site , tujunga , ca usa lines 17 distribution world nntp posting host isolar tujunga ca us summary keywords cursor article 1993may10 8186 griffin itc gu edu au itc gu edu au writes anyone ideas may implemented help prevent users losing sight cursor xterm window certain circumstances many screen based fields would like make cursor flash , far n't found way anybody else similar problems fixes make cursor stand standard type users ca n't find cursor \? run 'll turn cursor mouse \( variety \( \) users still ca n't find , cat ! greg earle phone \( 818 \) 353 8695 fax \( 818 \) 353 1877 internet earle isolar tujunga ca us uucp isolar ! earle elroy jpl nasa gov k ! elroy ! isolar ! earle
etxmesa eos ericsson se \( michael salmon \) subject search decent x based text editor nntp posting host eos6c02 ericsson se reply etxmesa eos ericsson se \( michael salmon \) organization ericsson telecom ab lines 35 article cs utexas edu spatel cs utexas edu \( patel \) writes ok , looking decent x based text editor following reasons hate emacs hate vi hate xedit coming pc based environment brought borland 's excellent turbo c pascal environments , something following properties would fit bill pull menus accelerator keys multiple windows mouse aware regular exp support key bindings easy use important free beast exist \? sure sounds like axe michael salmon include standard disclaimer include witty saying include fancy pseudo graphics ericsson telecom ab stockholm
dude pcs com \( michael elbel \) subject blinking cursor xterm \? \? \? organization pcs computer systeme gmbh lines 54 1993may11 ims com ims com \( antonio \) writes article 1993may10 taylor uucp , mark taylor uucp \( mark davis \) writes oh boy wanted however , believe cursor server 's control \( could wrong \) \? xterminal , example , server one controlling cursor , trying get xterm application blinking would cause needless yucky network overhead \( consistantly \) people write cursor blinking code implement simple case straight \( \) cycle however , cursor work much better cursor blinking suppressed \( e cursor made visible \) time cursor moves 5 1 sec thereafter n't , cursor hard track motion allways could port use emu export lcs mit edu contrib emu tar z 've implemented blinking text cursor reasons people mentioned even configure actual size text cursor \( horizontal ver line cursors , smaller block cursors \) , turn blinking , set blink rate even get blinking text ok , enough advertising n't looked xterm code respect , memories decide whether start xterm make wanted \( mostly blinking text \) , 'd say wo n't easy , since xterm hairy mess \( understandable follow 's roots back x10 \) actual task get cursor blink n't difficult provide right hooks antonio mentioned , 'll show cursor directly moved , people become confused since 's good idea take cursor screen anything screen anyways , n't complicated 'll start blink process cursor showing directly 's mapped portability emu 's newest version one export still r5 contrib tape wanted get new release six months , unfortunately 're drowning work since changes n't emu 's behavior much , 'd say whoever wants try emu n't wait new version , emu wo n't work bsd derived systems \( e g suns \) anything else csh fix , short \( remove one line code \) 'll put export today michael michael elbel , digital pcs gmbh , muenchen , germany dude pcs com nur fuer mia fermentation fault \( dumped \)
casper fwi uva nl \( casper h dik \) subject problems xdm \( \? \) x11r5 solaris organization fwi , university amsterdam lines 25 nntp posting host adam fwi uva nl db sunbim \( danny backx \) writes yes , bug x11r5 port xterm sometimes get start xdm reported casper n't know whether made set patches yet basically mit clients xterm main c , test line checks errno attempting open dev tty add errno case fine 's actually bug solaris 2 1 kernel could add workaround xterm open never return , \( n't time update r5 sunos5 patch lately , non existing problems seem warrant new set patches since xsession bourne shell script anyway , might well add line etc done etc profile xdm also keep xdm environment variable inherited environment casper
casper fwi uva nl \( casper h dik \) subject patch x11r5 solaris 2 1 organization fwi , university amsterdam lines 11 distribution inet nntp posting host adam fwi uva nl cfl edu au \( colin \) writes hi , sorry faq could someone please tell get patch \( es \) x11r5 compile solaris2 1 export lcs mit edu contrib r5 sunos5 patch tar z get xsun multi screen tar z 're casper
cc gatech edu \( edward j gallant iii \) subject looking x windows pc keywords ibm pc , x windows , windows organization college computing , georgia tech lines 39 article , rtsg mot com \( eric \) writes pm860605 longs lance colostate edu \( peter j mckinney \) writes price pc xview dos 445 00 1 1780 00 5 ncd announced new generation pc xview changed name little though ca n't remember exactly pc supports windows press release implies since 's still priced 500 range 's feature full buy anything else \? \( disclaimer direct quote literature , think sums also , never used product \) 's called pc based ncd ware , x terminal software \( , imho , excellent \) pc include x remote optimized 32 bit machines 's x11r5 based support remote management , etc ncd employee , fan \) edward j gallant iii georgia tech station atlanta , georgia 30332 e mail cc gatech edu phone \( 404 \) 853
informatik tu muenchen de \( stefan weiss \) subject x11r5 \( pl 23 \) sun386i \( works screen \) keywords sun x11 sun386i sunos device organization technische universitaet muenchen , germany lines 21 hello , problem x11r5 sun386i hope someone help 've built x mit sources applying patches got \( think 23 \) building easy installing everything started x nothing happened screen keyboard , machine seemed hang another machine found sun386i running well told 's x server xterm running experimenting mouse repeatedly pressing blindly hit xterm , session got prompt back guess 's device problem find correct device yet 've got sun386i b w framebuffer \( ace 6 0688 0 , rev 53 \) sunos 4 0 2 rom 4 4 please help i'm able run clients sun send output machines 's thanks advance , stefan
arshad co uk \( arshad \) subject monitor freq xfree86 \( repost \) organization siemens nixdorf information systems ltd x newsreader tin 1 1 pl4 lines 23 need advice regarding monitor use xfree86 et4000 based graphic card 1 meg memory know card supported xfree86 friend mine one pc monitor 17 colour capable displaying 1280x1024 resolution cant afford kind expensive monitor heard somewhere xfree86 requires multisync monitor minimum horizontal scan frequency true \? would like use xfree86 resolution 800x600 256 colours thinking buying cheap 14 svga monitor interlaced \( cheap \) 14 svga monitors maximum horizontal scan frequency kind monitor work xfree86 \? please reply email advance arshad arshad tel siemens nixdorf information systems limited fax siemens nixdorf house email arshad sni co uk , bracknell berkshire england
maddox bose com \( john maddox \) subject color tektronics term emulation originator maddox oz keywords xterm tek nntp posting host oz organization bose corporation lines 5 anyone know x based terminal emulator emulate color tektronics graphics terminal tek tek , etc \?
pt \( \) subject x dos windows organization , portland oregon , us x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 22 i'm posting request since last one title i'm looking x server software dos windows 've already seen desqview x xvision would like aware solutions , namely public domain shareware implementations 'd also like know , commercial case , possible problems , incompatibilities , available window managers libraries , etc experiences area please let know c u ! \( e \) mario
j k wight newcastle ac uk \( jim wight \) subject button 3 popup menus athena widgets organization internet lines 42 koblas netcom com cc xpert expo lcs mit edu ok , i'm driven batty trying create popup menus \( ie press , menu appears \) would really like use standard athena classes achieve goal , best attempts cannot get menus come without using menubutton parent widget tree know possible \( \) little , something escaping read documentation \( 4 2 3 positioning \) reference r5 documentation done less 10 mins knocked following wcl application want using command widget even familiar wcl example simple pretty obvious going crucial thing use actions ari app app wccreate command app menu app translations override n \( menu \) \( menu \) menu wccreate menu one , two , three one wccreate two wccreate three wccreate jim j k wight newcastle ac uk department computing science , university newcastle , tel 44 91 222 8238 newcastle upon tyne , ne1 7ru , united kingdom fax 44 91 222 8232
d91 nada kth se \( johan \) subject copyrights organization royal institute technology , stockholm , sweden lines 10 reply dcr mail ast cam ac uk 's message fri , 7 may 1993 13 05 17 gmt nntp posting host nada kth se always zillion lawyers , get paid well enough , sue brains gosh ! ca n't anyone send another planet \? ! well maybe , would better send apple , microsoft others \( way would get rid terrible products well \) d91 nada kth se drag n drop dead johan
pmartz dsd es com \( paul martz \) subject seeking simple wm nntp posting host 130 187 85 113 reply pmartz dsd es com \( paul martz \) organization evans sutherland computer corp , salt lake city , ut lines 10 article cea fr , cea fr \( \) writes i'm seeking simple window manager \( icccm compliant \) minimal doc n't want ol wm twm gwm twm whatever happened uwm \? still available form \? 's years since used heard anyone talk paul pmartz dsd es com evans sutherland
mark taylor uucp \( mark davis \) subject looking x windows pc organization lake taylor hospital computer services keywords ibm pc , x windows , windows lines 22 hasty netcom com \( amancio hasty jr \) writes performance suck lemons running xserver clone clone almost name generating xstones 486 33mhz system show realistic price tag get 15 tektronix xp11 terminals 900 , performance 80000 xstones excuse , 486 50 256k cache , s3 928 isa card , 8mb \( x11r5 \) running 386bsd get 100k xstones 1024x768 doubt nice , way 900 point price performance performance mark davis lake taylor hospital norfolk , va \( 804 \) 461 5001x431 sys administrator computer services mark taylor mark taylor uucp
kem prl ufl edu \( kelly murray \) subject looking x windows pc organization university florida parallel lab lines 30 distribution world nntp posting host prl ufl edu keywords ibm pc , x windows , windows article 1993may14 labtam labtam oz au , graeme labtam labtam oz au \( graeme gill \) writes article netcom com , hasty netcom com \( amancio hasty jr \) writes performance suck lemons running xserver clone clone almost name generating xstones 486 33mhz system get 15 tektronix xp11 terminals 900 , performance 80000 xstones come even close performance series , plus excuse , 486 50 256k cache , s3 928 isa card , 8mb \( x11r5 \) running 386bsd get 100k xstones 1024x768 doubt hardly apples apples try running benchmark network clone , 're still getting 100k xstones 've got good machine x terminals n't server know graeme gill would add 486 50 , s3 928 , 8mb , 15 , going cost way 900 , probably 3 , 000 color makes apples apples xterminals provide better price performance pcs make pc much cheaper , perform much worse , make pc 's perform great , cost pay extra additional pc home user , extra functionality worth added cost kelly murray
access digex net \( \) subject drop organization corporation , washington , dc usa lines 1 nntp posting host access digex net
mark cda mrs umn edu \( mark van \) subject multi line greeting organization university minnesota morris lines 12 possible xdm put multi line greeting \? , specify thing xresources file \? n't much \( anything \) x books , ca n't look thanks mark van systems software programmer computing services bitnet mark bitnet \( vms \) university minnesota , morris internet mark mrs umn edu \( vms \) morris , mn 1 612 589 mark cda mrs umn edu \( ultrix \) success progressive realization worthwhile goal dream !
anthony cit gu edu au \( anthony thyssen \) subject colors x windows \( \) organization griffith university lines 42 extract color readme file anthony 's icon library network discussion color coordination tried start discussion windows x' start year sort color icons follow \( say 16 32 colors including 5 colors small grey scale \) one responded problem colors icons used willy soon find workstations color table , solely window manager , icons instead applications actually require colors proper working picture graphic , animation , real time video , raytracers , etc following suggested color table icons , general use icons , window managers , general applications , follow table something like , unless application primary color \( red , green , blue \) three colors eg values 0 , 128 255 results 3 3 colors \( 27 \) representing standard colors use icons two extra shades grey eg \( black \) 0 , 64 , 128 , 196 255 \( white , red , \) 3 colors probably primary color provide shading 3 look buttons window manager table represents 32 colors represents large range workstation anthony thyssen \( griffith university \) anthony cit gu edu au gods idea amusement snakes game , terry pratchett sisters
anthony cit gu edu au \( anthony thyssen \) subject automatically configuring display variable keywords display , x windows , cshrc unix organization griffith university lines 114 css itd umich edu \( andrew douglas \) writes anyone know way unix machine automatically set 's display variable xterm 're using 's machine 's serving x \? best 've able come rather convoluted script extracts ip whos command , frequently fails , mention requires user name added andrew , consultant , itd consulting support services umich edu university michigan notes subject methods automatically passwd authorization one machine another also includes problem remote host current display used 1 use rsh rexec \( method xauth manual \) set file home directory remote machine password required execute commands xauth extract display rsh xauth merge method also used xrsh pass authorization vampire program also uses variation , however wrap part remote command sequence \( eg xauth add auth \) included method use job programs \( newer ones \) allow pass list environment variables includes copy authorization code required program available \( enabled \) sun machines also pass environment variables , well current directory however required store authority variable passing unless also shared home directories warning environment variables command line arguments visible listing flags passing authorization information environment variables arguments recommended method given manual \( shown \) safe view users 2 wrap part term environment variable method uses fact remote command pass term environment variable remote host matter script remote login file extract information term environment variable set things version script available network basically change term environment variable actual call rlogin performed , include display authorization remote machine extract information return term environment variable normal use terminal 8 script launching rlogin ! bin sh bin rl rlogin display n display case display \) display `hostname` display esac term term display export term fi rlogin 8 add cshrc login \( \? term \) \( `echo term tr cd ' '` ! '' \) echo term cut ' ' f3 xauth setenv display `echo term cut ' ' setenv term `echo term cut ' ' endif endif 8 xterm command use xterm hostname e bin rl hostname 8 3 nfs write file shared nfs partition access note home directories nfs mounted , authorization automatically passed , still pass display environment variable via file means ie login host echo display remote host setenv display 4 finger info plan file involves encrypting information ` ` remote machine finger information disadvantage information anyone user thus requiring encryption method individual ie method must shared known others , easy determine use me' technique give information remote accounts anyone asking last method developed last year second year , untill explained need encryption , point gave method however valid method \( 2 \) less secure anthony thyssen \( griffith university \) anthony cit gu edu au magic real unless declared integer john p melvin
warren atmos washington edu \( david warren \) subject viewing postscript files x windows article dry warren organization dept atmospheric sciences , university washington lines 9 nntp posting host dry atmos washington edu reply bull nl 's message wed , 12 may 1993 20 28 40 gmt subject ghostscript , also solve earlier request converting postscript hpgl filter interleaf david warren internet warren atmos washington edu \( 206 \) 543 uucp uw beaver ! atmos washington edu ! warren dept atmospheric sciences , ak 40 university washington e pubs library committee representative vice chair
hart af mil subject windowing terminal help organization internet lines 63 xpert xpert expo lcs mit edu e g l n f b dennis l hart date 14 may 1993 02 cst hart tel 904 882 dept sas internet \( smtp xpert expo lcs mit edu \) subject windowing terminal help greetings ! several 2000 windowing terminals associated software network able open lat terminal window workstation nodes unable get lat x session work customized terminal security allow lat connections trying invoke lat x session 2000 results following message displayed terminal manager window message area host support x sessions \( host model 60 support x sessions \) opening lat terminal window logging server node , setting display variable follows set display create node lat transport lat trying create follows create term detach fails gives following error message failed find language , xopendisplay \( \) returned null f cant open ca n't open display 2000 using system defaults \( ie default font \( \) , language , \) except security options allow connections options enabling lat protocol windowing terminals things enough allow lat x sessions vms version 5 5 1 running decwindows motif model 60s please help dennis hart atlantic research corporation computer sciences afb , fl
xerox com \( jeff \) subject need help compiling reply xerox com organization xerox corporation trouble compiling running sparc ipc using sunos 4 1 1 openwindows 3 getting undefined references arguments xtsetarg , , etc using wrong version library \? missing include file \? help would greatly appreciated jeff jeff man best computer email xerox com put aboard spacecraft phone \( 716 \) 422 one snailmail 780 salt road 845 mass produced webster , ny labor von braun
kaleb expo lcs mit edu \( kaleb keithley \) subject seeking simple wm organization x consortium , mit laboratory computer science lines 17 pmartz dsd es com \( paul martz \) writes article cea fr \( \) writes i'm seeking simple window manager \( icccm compliant \) minimal doc n't want ol wm twm gwm twm whatever happened uwm \? still available form \? 's years since used heard anyone talk i'm 99 44 100 positive uwm n't icccm compliant want , r4 sources still available export lcs mit edu \( 18 24 0 12 \) pub r4 kaleb
doug foxtrot ucsb edu \( douglas scott \) subject help porting function organization center computer music research composition , u c b lines 49 question aimed done server code hacking attempting add working function new server able get screen blank properly , debugging see function called 0 , \( arcane reason \) means blank screen problem function never called 1 , even moved mouse typed keys question likely missing would cause problem \? copied basic design function existing versions static next \( scr , \) scr copied server code right way \? \( ! screen saver \) \( \) \( screen saver \) save user 's current setting next save screen brightness \( \) \( , 0 0 \) blank screen else screen \( , next save screen brightness \) return true see server os code called turn saver , cannot find server screen tips help would appreciated thanks douglas scott \( 805 \) 893 center computer music research composition university california , santa barbara internet \( nextmail ok \) doug foxtrot ucsb edu
kaleb expo lcs mit edu \( kaleb keithley \) subject blinking cursor xterm \? \? \? organization x consortium , mit laboratory computer science lines 19 bernward moepi open de \( bernward averwald \) writes yes n't confuse mouse cursor text cursor xterms latter controlled application back days x11 1 analyse xterm code cursor implemented drawing rectangle around character n't seem changed 'til sources could add blinking cursor via xtappaddtimeout similar xt \( app \) n't work xterm , , despite appearances contrary , xterm really xt based application sources like timeouts inputs never checked xterm 's main loop n't surprised try n't work kaleb
mcgary intellection com \( mike mcgary \) subject ics widget data book reply olav nordic offshore 's message thu , 13 may 93 07 53 28 gmt organization intellection , inc lines 25 article 1993may13 nordic offshore olav nordic offshore \( jan olav \) writes anyone know obtain information ics widget data book \? email address , n't seem reading \( replying \) mail ics integrated computer solutions incorporated 201 broadway cambridge , 02139 vox \( 617 \) 621 0060 fax \( 617 \) 621 9555 email info ics com circle 9 reader service card mike mcgary mcgary intellection com intellection , inc dallas , texas vox \( 214 \) 620 2100 fax \( 214 \) 484
mark taylor uucp \( mark davis \) subject xterm fonts organization lake taylor hospital computer services lines 37 bernward moepi open de \( bernward averwald \) writes article 1993may11 taylor uucp mark taylor uucp \( mark davis \) writes problem many might run use lots ascii terminals use max meaning lots attributes , line means needing attributes work , including bold line drawing fonts seem meet criteria pairs fonts one bold normal , , fixed spacing , several sizes standard fonts work fonts like misc work great , except need font one size larger , 10x20 10x20 works well , bold counterpart ! n't need counterpart `man fb font option specifies font used dis playing bold text font must height width normal font one normal bold fonts specified , used normal font bold font produced font default normal font tried one font , xterm set remap bold \( default \) reverse , nothing happens bold displayed would appear \( least x11r4 \) cannot display bold xterm without specifying two fonts normal bold wish someone would prove incorrect mark davis lake taylor hospital norfolk , va \( 804 \) 461 5001x431 sys administrator computer services mark taylor mark taylor uucp
sandiway research nj nec com \( sandiway fong \) subject sun 4 1 3 , openwindows 3 0 problem static linking x libraries originator sandiway ecp reply sandiway research nj nec com organization nec research institute lines 66 build two executables application let 's call papp \( uses shared libs \) \( statically linked \) problem get problems trying build static one , dynamic one see trace btw , static one runs fine despite ominous error message someone clue static one bombs link time \? thanks much , sandiway dr sandiway fong nec research institute inc 4 independence way princeton nj \( 609 \) 951 \( 609 \) 951 \( fax \) linking stage usr2 quintus 1 1 sun4 4 1 ld e start bstatic papp usr2 quintus generic 1 1 library sun4 4 usr2 quintus generic 1 1 library sun4 4 usr2 quintus 1 1 sun4 4 1 lm l usr local guide lib lx11 lxext lc undefined error code 1 make fatal error command failed target statically linked shared lib version linked exactly way save omission bstatic papp 1 usr local lib 1 0 2 usr local lib 2 7 0 usr openwin lib 0 2 3 usr openwin lib 3 1 3 usr openwin lib 3 1 lx11 4 usr openwin lib libx11 4 3 1 usr openwin lib 1 0 lc 1 usr lib 1 8 2 usr lib 2 14 ldl 1 usr lib 1 0
encore com \( thanh \) subject online help motif widget \? organization encore computer corporation nntp posting host edison encore com lines 21 d3e758 bucky pnl gov \( je pelkey \) writes looking online help motif widgets \( public domain otherwise \) run sun sparc 'd especially interested help widgets integrate hypertext help , graphics , etc know gui builders like galaxy come online help widgets , need check stand alone help widgets well , seeing picked gui tool yet anybody know widgets like \? x resource , issue 6 thanh encore com
cws faultline com \( carl \) subject way stop application \? nntp posting host faultline com organization faultline software group , inc distribution ba lines 30 article 1993may13 colorado edu , hoswell alumni cs colorado edu \( mike hoswell \) writes i'm quite familiar variety window title setting methods question way \( via resources , etc \) stop application 's ability name 's name properties \? sorry , 's feature icccm specifies app set title , wm obliged bothers , complain app writer cares 's application want control ! \) write wm n't support icccm write program give window id title program set windows title app app changes , program switches back mike mike hoswell hoswell ncar ucar edu never stop ! bagels climate global dynamics disclaimer represent ncar , po box 3000 , boulder co , 80307 've got going nice think clearly carl faultline software group , inc \( 408 \) 736 867 court cws faultline com ! apple decwrl ! ! cws sunnyvale , ca 94086
subject gui builders vms mark trident datasys swri edu \( mark collier \) organization southwest research institute lines 15 looking gui builders uims 's run vms openvms environment interested motif tools gui independent tools xvt client also requires tool production least 6 months vms environment note list tools faq , info vms availability thanks mark collier southwest research institute senior research analyst automation data systems division voice \( 512 \) 522 data systems department fax \( 512 \) 522 software engineering section
uchicago edu \( charles blair \) subject xdm organization university chicago computing organizations x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 25 using pc based x server however , interval activity , x session ends happen use command fired xsession like time 1 locker corners 1 hypothesis xdm \( use xdmcp start x session \) detects period inactivity server , terminates session however , reason , happen workaround \? 'd prefer responses via e mail thanks economics real world problems simple clear solutions individuals , recommend astrology hugo
ross loral cts com \( robert ross \) subject detecting saving geometry changes summary trying detect geometry changes window manager keywords geometry , mwm nntp posting host louie li loral com organization loral instrumentation distribution usa lines 35 hi , i'm trying get program monitor resize position events , program exits , save last known geometry sort file adding event handler xtaddeventhandler \( toplevel , , false , , \) works fine , callback called whenever window resized using window manager \( mwm \) however , i'm resizing window , using resize handle window manager resize decoration , x set zero xevent passed event handler callback i'm accessing structure , like x11 manual says \( xev x , xev \) width height correct reposition window , using window manager , xevent 's structure contains correct x , , width , height member settings q1 anybody know , resizing , x set zero \? q2 way handle detecting saving geometry changes \? 've tried using xtgetvalues \( \) toplevel widget exiting application \( destroying widgets \) get garbage values x , , width , height resources thanks bob ross \( ross li loral com \) mr plow , 's name name loral instrumentation , san diego , ca mr plow homer simpson
boyd gauss \( mickey boyd \) subject xkernel sun 3 80 organization florida state university department mathematics x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 reply boyd math fsu edu lines 11 anyone built xkernel 3 80 's \? works great 3 50s , would soon kiss entire sun 3 goodbye \( reclaim bunch disk space \) email direct , 'll post summary mickey boyd systems administrator florida state university mathematics department email boyd math fsu edu office \( 904 \) 644 pager \( 904 \) 657 6425
boyd gauss \( mickey boyd \) subject dump x window screen organization florida state university department mathematics x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 reply boyd math fsu edu lines 16 h j hong \( ev nctu edu tw \) wrote hi ! i'm looking tool dump x window screen image \? one help \? see xwd , xpr even better , grab ftp cs uwm edu makes use programs well , much nicer interface \( \) dump postscript , bitmaps , etc mickey boyd systems administrator florida state university mathematics department email boyd math fsu edu office \( 904 \) 644 pager \( 904 \) 657 6425
berkeley edu \( da cheng \) subject x terminal faq organization u c berkeley math department lines 11 distribution usa nntp posting host berkeley edu subject 68 \) current state world x terminals \? jim morton \( jim applix com \) posts quarterly comp windows x list manufacturers terminals includes pricing information somebody send copy faq \? thanks alot ! da
solar csie ntu edu tw \( der hua liu \) subject keycode wrong \? \? nntp posting host jupiter csie ntu edu tw organization dept computer science information engineering ntu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 15 writing x based requires found keycode wrong run program linux host \( 2 \) display set local linux sun host \( x11r5 \) , two two xservers different course , keycode k anybody verify \? anything wrong \? thanks edward der hua liu cs department national taiwan university , taiwan solar csie ntu edu tw
brown ftms uucp \( vidiot \) subject viewing postscript files x windows reply brown ftms uucp \( vidiot \) organization vidiot 's hangout lines 25 article gordons mon gordons mon sps mot com \( gordon sasamori \) writes inmet camb inmet com camb inmet com \( george snyder \) writes article polaris isi com kin isi com \( kin cho \) writes wonder anybody know x window based postscript file viewer runs sunos \( prefered \) , hpux , ibm aix running sun openwindows , use pageview x window postscript previewer like ghostview , displays much nicer yes , 's broken ow 2 0 handle multiple pages well n't proper postscript commands draw entire document page instead pausing page n't tried ow 3 0 yet , though ow 3 0 , definition broken relative pageview requires dsc compliant postscript files , order stop page breaks n't consider broken say program puts postscript file n't dsc compliant broken harvard ucbvax ! uwvax ! astroatc ! ftms ! brown uu2 psi com ! ftms ! brown rutgers internet brown wi extrel com ftms ! brown astroatc uucp cs wisc edu
casper fwi uva nl \( casper h dik \) subject imake rules problem solaris 2 organization fwi , university amsterdam lines 29 nntp posting host adam fwi uva nl keywords imake make solaris2 infores com \( david levine \) writes hey folks , i'm attempting use imake manage makefiles development effort curious find anybody else experiencing problems target subdirs generated imake solaris 2 platforms example , 'make chokes first subdirectory e target found n't give precise error message , assume making target fails , make ca n't find rules 've seen happen sunos 5 x make well point i'm sure happens seems happen large makefiles entries near end get lost small changes makefile remedy problem , example mit r5 distribution r5 sunos5 patch happen target one doc directories first thought bug make sun , built used results attached 'll find first makefiles target rule generated makefile really weird really sure using gnu make \? casper
eclipse sheridanc ca \( rob \) subject somebody please help ! nntp posting host eclipse sheridanc ca organization college , ontario , canada lines 15 hello , hope right group post 've got little problem finally managed get real operating system \( linux , opposed ms dos \) like alot , try run , get strange response monitor goes graphics mode get big white rectangle screen 's ! nothing else ! , 've collected almost every faq world help either 's confusing must missing something setup 386dx \( 20mhz \) trident 8900c svga \( w 1 meg \) 4 mb ram plenty hd space help appreciated thanx
celsiustech se \( per andersson \) subject x , shared libraries , replacing modules \? organization celsiustech ab lines 16 hi i'm possible replace single module , shared library , libx11 suns openwindows tried rtfm , n't get wiser way also , rs6000 machine running 3 2 2 \( possible \) know real libraries \( ar \) trying replace xlookupstring delivered libraries , another special things per per andersson celsiustech se \( stacken kth se free time \) managing networks \( occasionally suns \) , speaking celsiustech ab , j rf , sweden
allbery wariat org \( allbery \) subject blinking cursor xterm \? \? \? reply allbery wariat org \( allbery \) organization , public access uni site lines 13 quoted 1993may13 moepi open de bernward moepi open de \( bernward averwald \) back days x11 1 analyse xterm code cursor implemented drawing rectangle around character n't seem changed 'til sources could add blinking cursor via xtappaddtimeout similar server overhead mildly ridiculous , though \( see also desqview x , dos windows \) really want xterm wake every half second whack server bitblt \? brandon
jones chpc utexas edu \( william l jones \) subject outline scalable fonts versus bitmap replicated scalable fonts organization university texas system chpc lines 24 looking scaling code realized 1 \) problem resolution due installation problem 2 \) x server font server rescale best font find meet requirements means server return response like following adobe medium normal 0 0 75 75 p 0 iso8859 1 ask adobe medium normal 14 100 90 90 p 0 iso8859 1 generate try always use known pixel sizes bill jones
carl frost bain oz au \( carl \) subject c motif , gcc , silly messages organization bain company x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 lines 9 thanks everyone mailed help , unfortunately end problem really stupid behalf code 100 perfect , might help add control c makefile anyway mangled name telling locate control constructor want reaffirm valuable book one , i'm enjoying page \)
subject x dos windows calstatela edu \( c lee \) reply calstatela edu distribution world organization cal state university , los angeles nntp posting host mars calstatela edu lines 29 article psg com , pt \( \) writes i'm posting request since last one title i'm looking x server software dos windows 've already seen desqview x xvision would like aware solutions , namely public domain shareware implementations 'd also like know , commercial case , possible problems , incompatibilities , available window managers libraries , etc experiences area please let know c u ! \( e \) mario try linux available internet
gordons mon sps mot com \( gordon sasamori \) subject viewing postscript files x windows organization nippon motorola ltd , tokyo , japan lines 16 604 ftms uucp brown ftms uucp \( vidiot \) writes ow 3 0 , definition broken relative pageview requires dsc compliant postscript files , order stop page breaks n't consider broken say program puts postscript file n't dsc compliant broken well may true however , man page pageview ow 2 0 mention dsc compliance event , point try display ps files using pageview find 's practical tool v 1 v 2 v 3 v 4 v 5 v 6 v 7 gordon sasamori mcu design \( email gordons ai sps mot com , nippon motorola ltd voice 81 \( 3 \) , fax 81 \( 3 \) \)
mufti pls com subject including color pixmap xpm files application organization personal library software , inc lines 10 portable convenient way use color picture files xpm format define x pixmap motif application \? functions , pointers , tips etc would welcome saad mufti personal library software e mail mufti pls com
cs utwente nl \( arjen \) subject xwindows conversion nntp posting host cs utwente nl organization university twente , dept computer science lines 13 hi , 've heard commercial package named , could convert ms windows source code xwindows source code \( c \) problem , package n't available holland \( least , ca n't find anywhere \( \) another package \( free shareware \) , thing \? , find buy \? thanks advance arjen
eua ericsson se \( eriksson \) subject drawing networks , graphs \? nntp posting host eua ericsson se nntp posting user reply eua ericsson se organization ellemtel telecom systems labs , stockholm , sweden lines 34 widgets , function drawing networks , graphs etc \? \( tree views \) freeware , shareware , comercial like , instance giving associations nodes automatic layout generation would nice node symbols could used maybe even insert widgets nodes using different line styles etc describing associations information would appreciated , thanks advance , \( eriksson eua ericsson se \)
curia ucc ie \( peter flynn \) subject compiling ghostview sun openwindows 3 organization university college , lines 16 due seems sun 's organisation x libraries includes , standard \( gnu \) software wo n't compile box \( well , tar file \) right i'm trying make ghostview complains ca n't find x11 xaw linked \( ln \) files usr openwin share include x11 thing still complains ca n't find still n't able compile xdvi , way anyone ever managed get anything normal compile sun \( sunos 4 1 3 openwindows 3 \) \? 's trick i'm missing \? 've even tried hard copying relevant files right places every time , 's bit missing refuses find peter
soenke wiwi12 uni bielefeld de \( soenke voss \) subject help needed callbacks , actions events nntp posting host wiwi12 uni bielefeld de organization universitaet bielefeld lines 34 understood two methods connect application code widgets callbacks actions problem face quite long piece application code performs lot drawing window want connect widget problem far could use callback function action , processing events afterwards drawing takes , want application code sequence able interrupted events want handle events resume processing application code point interrupted seems n't possible , give user impression inputs immediately processed \? anybody idea \? please answer via e mail thanks advance soenke soenke voss faculty economics soenke wiwi12 uni bielefeld de university bielefeld w 4800 bielefeld 1 germany difference madman mad ! \( dali \)
dude pcs com \( michael elbel \) subject blinking cursor xterm \? \? \? organization pcs computer systeme gmbh lines 48 senator bedfellow mit edu steve launchpad unc edu writes fri , 14 may 1993 07 15 25 gmt , dude pcs com \( michael elbel \) said , emu wo n't work bsd derived systems \( e g suns \) anything else csh fix , short \( remove one line code \) 'll put export today 's actually version export one cannot specify posix tty behaviour , posix config files incomplete without specific platforms like suns looked twice porting emu linux , stopped short tty part version emu supports posix tty explicitly \? hmm , depends define jordan implemented system dependent stuff way basic implementations , call , operating system types , go ahead write include file specific machine operating system using basic implementations since jordan n't encountered os flavor yet , fully posix , n't gotten around really implement \( test \) top level include file specifically posix posix routines used sun specific file tty sun example , also use bsd stuff still probably better implement include file every operating system ' existing ones type mess result clearly seen xterm sources even quite bit code gets copied almost unchanged couple times , uses disk space , since drivers actually included toplevel include file compiled emu n't hard come tty linux file fully relies posix stuff , unfortunately n't linux system available , ca n't port would suggest read readme term problems questions , contact could try sort unfortunately rely help net part emu , since n't access many different systems michael michael elbel , digital pcs gmbh , muenchen , germany dude pcs com nur fuer mia fermentation fault \( dumped \)
duggan ecs umass edu subject creating colormap , e lookup table x11 r4 lines 99 hello , copy source using setup user specified color map x v4 attempting create user defined colors terms rgb color ranges calls xalloccolor prove ineffective variables defined follows int , j , k , lut index color type min image , max image color type image pixel value range , last image , start , end , jump , lut 512 unsigned long pixel double red , green , blue data structure used color operations typedef struct unsigned long pixel unsigned short red , green , blue char flags red , green , blue char pad xcolor xcolor , hardwarecolor color type defined double red , double green , double blue need know set possible values hardwarecolor work within call xalloccolor start red \( int \) 255 min image red 0 255 end red \( int \) 255 max image red 0 255 jump red \( int \) \( \( end red start red \) 7 \) start green \( int \) 255 min image green 0 255 end green \( int \) 255 max image green 0 255 jump green \( int \) \( \( end green start green \) 7 \) start blue \( int \) 255 min image blue 0 255 end blue \( int \) 255 max image blue 0 255 jump blue \( int \) \( \( end blue start blue \) 7 \) lut index 0 \( 0 8 \) \( j 0 j 8 j \) \( k 0 k 8 k \) \( 0 jump red 1 \) lut lut index red start red else lut lut index red jump red 1 \( j 0 jump green 1 \) lut lut index green start green else lut lut index green jump green j 1 \( k 0 jump blue 1 \) lut lut index blue start blue else lut lut index blue jump blue k 1 hardwarecolor red \( short \) lut lut index red hardwarecolor green \( short \) lut lut index green hardwarecolor blue \( short \) lut lut index blue hardwarecolor pixel lut index printf \( pixel n , lut index , hardwarecolor red , hardwarecolor green , hardwarecolor blue , hardwarecolor pixel \) status xalloccolor \( dpy , colormap , hardwarecolor \) printf \( pixel n , lut index , hardwarecolor red , hardwarecolor green , hardwarecolor blue , hardwarecolor pixel \) \( status ! 0 \) xsetforeground \( dpy , gc , hardwarecolor pixel \) xfillrectangle \( dpy , win , gc , 1 , 1 , , \) xflush \( dpy \) sleep \( 10 \) printf \( f f f n , lut index , lut lut index lut lut index green , lut lut index blue , hardwarecolor pixel \) lut index lut index 1 thanks advance anyone help problem sincerely , john f duggan john f duggan alias khan engineering computer services , internet duggan ecs umass edu univ massachusetts , amherst , bitnet duggan
jc minya uucp \( john chambers \) subject program display gif files \? lines 17 seems silly , 've located things like tgif edit gif files , various tools convert gif format , n't able locate program opens window displays gif file 've looked thru various faq files , also avail one lurking archive \? nothing sophisticated show pretty picture \? alternatively , could locate specs gif , n't suppose would hard write , idea even start looking spec \( well , actually , idea newsgroup \) auto industry like computer industry , car would cost 5 , would get 5000 miles gallon , random times would explode , killing passengers
jacks apana org au \( jack \) subject svr4 xclients wo n't work svr4 2 \( repost \) organization prospect , australia lines 17 changed svr4 svr4 2 intel box discovered svr4 xclients xload , etc would longer work bomb message error ca n't open display unix 0 0 ca n't find correct shared libraries , need recompiled , used correct options \? systems use x11r5 thanks jack
kerr ux1 cso uiuc edu \( stan kerr \) subject mac x sun openwindows 3 organization university illinois urbana lines 33 nntp posting host ux1 cso uiuc edu keywords mac x openwindows 3 x ossa hq nasa gov \( benjamin jones \) writes 've run bit snag trying get mac x running would appreciate responses anyone may seen problem local network , number macs , suns sgi machines installed macx mactcp macintoshes run xclients sgi machines live long day problem try run xclient sun , setup command macx , execute nothing happens , n't even get command output , thought might routing issue , run remote xclients suns sgi machines , well vice versa also run remote xclients sgi machines local net , problem holds true non local suns well tried send private mail , mail ossa hq nasa gov rejected , extract readme file comes macx users remote commands sun machines may find remote commands appear nothing output sun machine due feature sun network daemon quietly disconnects requesting machines known sun network address \( etc hosts nis hosts \) database successfully use remote commands sunos based machine , must entry network address database macintosh running macx stan kerr computing communications services office , u illinois urbana phone 217 333 email uiuc edu
spyder crd ge com \( skip montanaro \) subject drawing networks , graphs \? reply spyder crd ge com 's message mon , 17 may 1993 13 43 38 gmt nntp posting host spyder crd ge com reply montanaro crd ge com \( skip montanaro \) organization ge corporate research development , schenectady , ny spyder crd ge com lines 27 article 1993may17 eua ericsson se eua ericsson se \( eriksson \) writes widgets , function drawing networks , graphs etc \? \( tree views \) freeware , shareware , comercial like , instance pretty picture deleted giving associations nodes automatic layout generation would nice node symbols could used maybe even insert widgets nodes using different line styles etc describing associations check xmgraph library following location ecn uiowa edu comp hp gui classic xmgraph tar z skip \( montanaro crd ge com \)
com tw \( michael hung \) subject internationalization organization internet lines 9 xpert expo lcs mit edu hi , anybody example programs using internationalization features x11r5 \? small x program show chinese texts , menu bar icons thanks advance michael c hung
unix2 tcd ie \( michael carley \) subject dvi viewers nntp posting host unix2 tcd ie organization trinity college , dublin lines 11 need help tracking dvi viewer x xdvi got x libraries includes installed \) way around , trying avoid installing stuff \( space premium \) ii \) would someone prepared make binaries available thanks help michael carley , dept mech engineering , tcd
kbw helios ath epa gov \( kevin b weinrich \) subject summary make window 's input caps organization computer sciences corp lines 30 distribution world nntp posting host helios ath epa gov thanks bruce barnett , recommended xvttool , bernward averwald liam quin , recommended modifying xdefaults get desired behavior class xterms xvttool , simply create key file looks like b b c c specify said key file command line translate input \( case , lo case case \) works great , get customizable button pad right left side use xterm solution , add xdefaults vt100 translations override key string \( \) n vt100 translations override n key insert string \( \) n key b insert string \( b \) n invoke xterm name thanks loads ! kevin weinrich computer sciences corp kbw helios ath epa gov
marcus iiasa ac \( marcus \) subject program display gif files \? organization international institute applied systems analysis x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 11 john chambers \( jc minya uucp \) wrote seems silly , 've located things like tgif edit gif files , various tools convert gif format , n't able locate program opens window displays gif file 've looked thru various faq files , also avail one lurking archive \? nothing sophisticated show pretty picture \? xv
sadie cs sun ac za \( sadie hf \) subject looking article article hippo 1993may17 organization rhodes university , grahamstown , south africa lines 17 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 urgently looking following article , ca n't seem find anywhere multi threaded x server john allen smith x resource issue 1 , pp 73 89 , winter 1992 anyone tell find , much appreciated h f sadie departement computer science university stellenbosch south africa e mail sadie itu sun ac za
eve kaist ac kr \( ji \) subject \( none \) organization internet lines 1 subscribe xpert eve kaist ac kr
com \( \) subject faq 's \? \? organization ernst young lines 5 could someone repost faqs group , please \? thanks
dave npt nuwc navy mil \( dave lewis \) subject unsubscribe organization internet lines 2 xpert expo lcs mit edu unsubscribe
gary andrew cmu edu subject colors x windows \( \) organization school computer science , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 26 cwikla morrison wri com nntp posting host po4 andrew cmu edu reply cwikla morrison wri com excerpts netnews comp windows x 15 may 93 colors x windows \( john cwikla morrison wri \( 4620 \) problem need solutions applications although would love things mentioned , somebody write 'd like see scenario widget , view , whatever , describes 's colors via palette palettes shared contain descriptive information directly tied object uses palettes held server palette , , number hardware color cells color input focus particular widget , widget access colors described associated palette widgets , , get closest approximation generated union colors current palette free colors left widget specifies color imaging providing index \( pixel \) associated palette bold part hard would need done server
fnal gov \( \) subject xterm slave mode organization fermi national accelerator laboratory , batavia il lines 11 distribution world nntp posting host fnal gov keywords xterm newgroup long time could somebody tell slave mode xterm \? used \? info get info examples want use bunch xterms send input one application xterms get output xterms please email info thanks ,
rsc hao ucar edu \( bob campbell \) subject motif 1 2 ow 3 0 compiling reply rsc hao ucar edu organization high altitude observatory ncar , boulder co lines 24 've built system \( sunos 4 1 3 , x11r5 , motif 1 2 , ow 3 0 \) builds fine , run , child windows opens , 1 \) locks mouse window area 2 \) n't accept input mouse needless say , pain ass , go find empty terminal login kill problem openwindows motif \? patch \? bob campbell crayons take system manager go hao , ncar rsc hao ucar edu disclaimer views way connected employer closed mouth gathers feet unknown requires little thought little work hicks managing editor amazing computing
dave npt nuwc navy mil \( dave lewis \) subject unsubscribe organization internet lines 3 expert expo lcs mit edu unsubscribe
jupiter fuentez com \( joe hildebrand \) subject help needed callbacks , actions events organization internet lines 47 soenke wiwi12 uni bielefeld de \( soenke voss \) cc xpert expo lcs mit edu understood two methods connect application code widgets callbacks actions problem face quite long piece application code performs lot drawing window want connect widget problem far could use callback function action , processing events afterwards drawing takes , want application code sequence able interrupted events want handle events resume processing application code point interrupted seems n't possible , give user impression inputs immediately processed \? use workproc see \( \) split drawing small chunks \( hard part \) , callback starts drawing , call \( \) call workproc first time workproc function returns boolean true finished , false want keep processing return false , workproc automatically installed note method better using time loop , since events get processed precedence oriented manner using ada bindings , however , hosed , look xtappaddtimeout \( \) joe hildebrand fuentez com software engineer fuentez systems concepts \( 703 \) 273 standard disclaimers apply
peter mts ucs ualberta ca subject free x servers pcs organization internet lines 5 expert expo lcs mit edu anyone know free x servers pcs , preferably run ms windows \? thanks peter , university alberta , edmonton , canada e mail \( mts ucs ualberta ca \)
dan watson ibm com \( walt daniels \) subject x , shared libraries , replacing modules \? organization internet lines 5 celsiustech se cc xpert expo lcs mit edu know nothing sun 's replacing pieces libraries , shared , straight forward rs 6000 's \( releases \) extract appropriate pierce ar replace ar see info details
mlt blues infores com \( michael \) subject 'makedepend' problem organization information resources inc lines 46 hi , netters problem 'makedepend' n't know correctly process clause c preprocessor statements evaluates everything true matter example , makedepend chokes one x11 include files \( distributed sun \) namely h ! defined \( \) defined \( stdc \) include string h define index strchr define rindex else bsd ! stdc include strings h endif ! stdc 'makedepend' evaluates corresponding else statements tries open file strings h n't exist solaris2 also lot statements legacy code got built 'makedepend' net n't fix problem fairness noted man page \( sun 's distribution \) mentions problem bugs source cpp , berkeley c preprocessor , makedepend compiled way directives evaluate true regardless actual value may cause wrong include directives evaluated makedepend simply parser written expressions anybody come solution fix willing share us \? since often experience delays newsfeed please reply directly e mail address 'll post summary thanks advance michael information resources , inc e mail mlt blues infores com 200 fifth avenue voice \( 617 \) 890 1100 ext waltham , 02154 , usa fax \( 617 \) 890 4660
dcc uchile cl \( gabriel c \) subject key event window originator dcc uchile cl nntp posting host dcc uchile cl organization universidad de chile , de de la lines 34 hi , someone program sending key event another window must appear window used xsendevent tar package ! ! ! example , get program executing ! bin sh read something echo something send key event keypress , window get something thanks advance gabriel ez c dcc uchile cl
harden skate ics com \( harden \) subject microsoft buy xhibition \? \? summary nntp posting host skate ics com organization integrated computer solutions , inc lines 74 article 1993may14 vpbuild vp com , jessea u013 vp com \( jesse w asher \) writes 've getting mail xhibition june conference wondering microsoft bought xhibition \? front says conference microsoft windows nt developers 's deal \? thought x x windows \? \? jesse w asher yes , xhibition x window system x window system conference remains largest complete conference devoted x nineteen full half day tutorials thirty six technical sessions three days provide huge amounts information x application developers add vendor exhibits product presentation track provide information folks purchase today , complete show focused x11 speakers xhibition 93 include bob , lu abel , mark , paul asente , doug , donna converse , jim fulton , oliver jones , keith packard , ralph swick , doug young , many others xhibition growing \( fortunately us \) added additional conferences surveys given indicated additional topics interest include object oriented technologies object management group 's orb c applies x client server technologies dce threads databases object oriented \( surprisingly look audience \) windows nt bulk xhibition audience \( unix community \) developing applications house custom use , new 32 bit operating system player large microsoft needs evaluated ms windows many desktops , price computing power dropping , successor needs evaluated corporations begin look nt , must developers suppliers mission xhibition technical conferences provide information application developer technology planner nt conference xhibition designed worked microsoft provide conference year specifically designed show x unix developers capabilities windows nt n't sure nt need application development systems deployment , place find ask folks microsoft , get show need conference attendees receive nt software development kits bang , evaluate , generally see hope n't sound like nt commercial \( sound like xhibition commercial \) want reiterate xhibition audience growing xhibition growing along industry confusing place moment unix , cose , nt , dce , , acronyms xhibition help sort confusion harden technical program manager harden ics com x h b n conference trade show corporate software development 201 broadway cambridge , 02139 windows distributed computing june 7 11 , san jose , ca ics com uunet ! ics com ! voice \( 617 \) 621 0060 fax \( 617 \) 621 9555 presented integrated computer solutions , inc
cs city ac uk \( \) subject blinking cursor xterm \? \? \? organization computer science dept , city university , london lines 19 distribution world nntp posting host fred cs city ac uk back days x11 1 analyse xterm code cursor implemented drawing rectangle around character n't seem changed 'til sources could add blinking cursor via xtappaddtimeout similar server overhead mildly ridiculous , though \( see also desqview x , dos windows \) really want xterm wake every half second whack server bitblt \? dos x servers terribly slow use experience , guess performance would pretty bad believe discussion valid x server decent workstation eno trouble new age janet uk ac city music 's eno uk ac city cs evil brian eno us city ac uk cunyvm cuny edu
webster ucssun1 sdsu edu \( p \) subject xdm x error organization internet lines 26 xpert expo lcs mit edu attempting connect sgi indigo pc clone using commercial x windows emulation package , x package hangs pre login x screen mode login box wo n't display using package mode , sgi , run none graphic type things pc get error read error 0 socket 1 \( raw socket error \) sgi , xdm errors get termination error kill stalled screen pc sgi , date time sgi xdm hung xopendisplay \( remote 0 , server open failed remote 0 , giving access control disabled \( believe , message confirms login sgi \) believe sgi set properly described x adm book x package tech support n't able solve problem i'm looking suggestions look problems , possible tests run narrow questions thanks webster ucssun1 sdsu edu
mark taylor uucp \( mark davis \) subject microsoft buy xhibition \? \? organization lake taylor hospital computer services lines 39 harden skate ics com \( harden \) writes article 1993may14 vpbuild vp com , jessea u013 vp com \( jesse w asher \) writes 've getting mail xhibition june conference wondering microsoft bought xhibition \? front says conference microsoft windows nt developers 's deal \? thought x x windows \? \? jesse w asher wondering \( surprisingly look audience \) windows nt bulk xhibition audience \( unix community \) developing applications house custom use , new 32 bit operating system player large microsoft needs evaluated ms windows many desktops , price computing power dropping , successor needs evaluated corporations begin look nt , must developers suppliers need conference attendees receive nt software development kits bang , evaluate , generally see hope n't sound like nt commercial \( sound like xhibition commercial \) unfortunately n't agree logic nt x windows conference perhaps good come , two dissimilar nt marketing stuff large xhibition adds coming similar conclusion jesse mark davis lake taylor hospital norfolk , va \( 804 \) 461 5001x431 sys administrator computer services mark taylor mark taylor uucp
dale ksc nasa gov \( ed \) subject client 's display variable set \? keywords display , environment organization nasa lines 22 easy \( ie via shell commands \) way tell display environment variable given client process \? sometimes get want typing ps axe client invoked display argument b display one first variables defined environment \( actually 've never seen b 's illustrate type thing i'm looking \) ultimately wish determine number displays simultaneously running given x application system sunos 4 1 2 thanks help , ed harris space systems corporation hssc ksc nasa gov
com tw \( michael hung \) subject multi bytes fonts organization internet lines 14 xpert expo lcs mit edu wondering change english fonts existed api multi bytes fonts \? \( chinese , japanese \) someone told x11r5 supports internationalization features , cannot find examples need anybody done similar jobs \? way , english fonts replace chinese japanese fonts , means windows , menubar , button great someone share us done thanks advance c hung
hdr ross com \( henry reynolds \) subject help w w sun 4 110 cg2 framebuffer nntp posting host organization ross technology , inc austin , tx tim andy hssc scarolina edu distribution na lines 31 xsun wo n't come color w framebuffer ! trying use xkernel 4 freshly built statically copy xsun works fine cg6 , , type , 4 110 type frame buffer get mono cgtwo0 vec cgtwo0 sun 3 color board , fast read 've tried removing dev cg , dev bw , dev fb recreating dev cgtwo0 xsun comes mono recreating dev fb , comes mono , 've tried xsun xsun dev dev cgtwo0 ps xnews come color 's statically linked , dynamically linked xsun comes mono also pps xsun compiled w gcc 2 3 3 system running 4 1 3 4 110 also running 4 1 3 thanks n advance highway made honda oyster ! ! henry reynolds hdr ross com hdr cactus org fone \( 512 \) 892 ross technology , inc fax \( 512 \) 892 5316 hwy 290 west suite 500 austin , tx 78735
robert swanee ee uwa edu au \( roberto \) subject xdm manage remote display linux xfree86 \? organization university western australia lines 16 nntp posting host rama ee uwa oz au suns running sunos 4 1 3 openwindows 3 0 \( x11r4 \) used xvision pc , setup broadcast query unix xdm servers allow user choose unix client login xdm manage display would like thing xfree86 running linux , n't know n't want unix xdm manage pc displays pc 's always running linux \( let alone xfree86 \) would like setup provided xvision anybody help \? thanks , dr roberto phone 61 9 380 centre intelligent information processing systems dept electrical electronic engineering university western australia fax 61 9 380 1101 v nedlands wa 6009 australia email robert swanee ee uwa edu au
phoenix princeton edu \( david wagner \) subject viewing postscript files x windows originator news nimaster nntp posting host phoenix princeton edu organization princeton university lines 54 article polaris isi com kin isi com \( kin cho \) writes also live utility converts postscript plain text , retaining page counts know many pages original document contains well , know one hack sort conversion first get ghostscript check gs ps file comes prints information text string goes page , maintains page counts 've written little c program massage output gs gs ps somewhat , get ascii strings document guarantees wo n't break words sentences , though 've used varying degrees success anyways , try , may want massager filter use gs crude postscript ascii conversion usage cat file ps gs gs ps massager print ctrl l new page put following source massager c compile include stdio h include string h main \( \) char line 1000 , p \( fgets \( line , sizeof \( line \) , stdin \) ! null \) \( line 0 \) printf \( f n \) else \( line 0 's' line 1 ' ' \) \( \( p \( line , ' \) ' \) \) null \) continue p ' 0' \( \( p strchr \( line , ' \( ' \) \) null \) continue \( p p p \) \( p ! ' ' \( p 1 ! ' \) ' p 1 ! ' \( ' \) \) \( p \) \( ' n' \) return \( 0 \) david wagner princeton edu
gabi technion ac il \( gabi \) subject wanted interactive gui builder x motif organization technion institute technology lines 11 hi , i'm looking tools make x programming easy would like tool enable create x motif gui currently i'm working sgi forms package enables create gui coding \( callbacks \) help appreciated thanks gabi
iop iie edu tw subject program wm protocols wm delete window olit organization lab lines 8 hi , study wm delete window atom open look study book unix desktop guide open look , run example chapter 8 , result described book 's figure 8 1 dose anyone read book \? run example \( c \) \? problem \? curious wm delete window programming anyone help \? thanks advance help ! ! ! iop
longs lance colostate edu \( leo j \) subject please ! reply lance colostate edu nntp posting host summit lance colostate edu organization engineering network services , colorado state university lines 19 discussion viewing ps files x11 seems rather interesting fail understand reason contained 2 newsgroups subscribed comp text interleaf could care less ps viewing x11 sure members group interested topic followup looking newsgroups could please remove comp text interleaf distribution \? sort courtesy best regards leo j longs lance colostate edu electrical engineering l ieee org colorado state u \( 303 \) 491 optical computing lab
jhpark kdb ac kr \( park ho \) subject x11r5 ibm rs6000 lines 18 , everybody \? installed x11r5 ibm rs6000 workstation os version aix 3 2 3 problem installation problem invoking 'xinit' invoke 'xinit' , error message follows giving xinit unable connect x server xinit process \( errno 3 \) server error i'm n't know reason get message please help waiting help thanks reading mail park ho \( jhpark kdb ac kr \)
\( pedro antonio \) subject xfig open look problem nntp posting host organization x newsreader tin 1 1 pl4 lines 26 i'm solaris 2 1 user classic workstation compiled xfig 2 1 7 version flag use openwindows , run , program runs runs runs \( 15 minutes \) never ready work labels completed ca n't push button problem run openwindows x solution \? thanks advance excuse english pedro antonio e mail es x 400 adress c es admd prmd iris ou relay dd rfc 822 \( \) es
com tw \( michael hung \) subject multi byte fonts organization internet lines 16 xpert expo lcs mit edu wondering change english fonts existed api multi bytes fonts \? \( chinese , japanese \) someone told x11r5 supports internationalization features , cannot find examples need anybody done similar jobs \? way , english fonts replace chinese japanese fonts , means windows , menubar , button great someone share us done thanks advance c hung
herb iiasa ac \( herb hasler \) subject x11r5 ibm rs6000 organization iiasa , , austria x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 23 yes problem xinit problems seems come fact xopendisplay \( 0 \) fails try \( machine named godzilla \) setenv display godzilla 0 0 xterm works fine , following work setenv display unix 0 0 xterm set configuration option incorrectly \? thank assistance offer herb hasler herb iiasa ac international institute applied systems \( iiasa \) , austria 43 715 21 ext 548
ntuvax ntu ac sg subject x windows ms dos pc \? 's faq \? lines 7 nntp posting host v9000 ntu ac sg organization nanyang technological university singapore need know get faq xwindows ms dos machines usual faq gave name file called xservers nonunix txt z cannot find anywhere need x windows programming msdos pc anyone know go \?
dude pcs com \( michael elbel \) subject blinking cursor xterm \? \? \? organization pcs computer systeme gmbh lines 28 1993may16 wariat org allbery wariat org \( allbery \) writes quoted 1993may13 moepi open de bernward moepi open de \( bernward averwald \) back days x11 1 analyse xterm code cursor implemented drawing rectangle around character n't seem changed 'til sources could add blinking cursor via xtappaddtimeout similar server overhead mildly ridiculous , though \( see also desqview x , dos windows \) really want xterm wake every half second whack server bitblt \? \? i'm running emu 25 mhz 68020 box cannot make difference performance whether cursor set blinking \( think bit , cycle 400 ms hell lot time even slowest pc \) since would course enable blinking text cursor xterm input focus , application active anyway repeat , blinking text cursor costs almost nothing performance , needs thought designing xterm software michael michael elbel , digital pcs gmbh , muenchen , germany dude pcs com nur fuer mia fermentation fault \( dumped \)
sadie cs sun ac za \( sadie hf \) subject looking article organization rhodes university , grahamstown , south africa x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 19 urgently looking following article , cannot find anywhere local libraries john allen smith multi threaded x server x resource issue 1 , pp 73 89 , winter 1992 anyone tell find , much appreciate ! ! h f sadie departement computer science university stellenbosch south africa e mail sadie itu sun ac za
ccdw kudu ru ac za \( dave wilson \) subject open look \? organization rhodes university , grahamstown , south africa lines 9 obtain copy open look widgets \? obtainable net somewhere , need order copy \( , \) \? thanks help please email dave wilson computing centre , rhodes university grahamstown , south africa
downie brunel ac uk \( downie \) subject mac x sun openwindows 3 keywords mac x openwindows 3 x organization brunel university , west london , uk lines 48 article ux1 cso uiuc edu kerr ux1 cso uiuc edu \( stan kerr \) writes ossa hq nasa gov \( benjamin jones \) writes 've run bit snag trying get mac x running would appreciate stuff deleted local net , problem holds true non local suns well tried send private mail , mail ossa hq nasa gov rejected , extract readme file comes macx users remote commands sun machines may find remote commands appear nothing output sun machine due feature sun network daemon quietly disconnects requesting machines known sun network address \( etc hosts nis hosts \) database successfully use remote commands sunos based machine , must entry network address database macintosh running macx received similar information advice appears problem benjamin \( still \) nis information macs \( even put explicit entries etc hosts avail \) monitoring classic , initial rexec packet sent sun , sends something correct mac , nothing appears mac number one suspect , 's readme suggests n't yet looked stan kerr computing communications services office , u illinois urbana phone 217 333 email uiuc edu downie brunel ac uk faculty technology , brunel university , uxbridge , , uk 44 895 4 003 die und , worden , nicht , 7 man nicht , man
brown ftms uucp \( vidiot \) subject viewing postscript files x windows reply brown ftms uucp \( vidiot \) organization vidiot 's hangout lines 30 article gordons mon sps mot com gordons mon sps mot com \( gordon sasamori \) writes 604 ftms uucp brown ftms uucp \( vidiot \) writes ow 3 0 , definition broken relative pageview requires dsc compliant postscript files , order stop page breaks n't consider broken say program puts postscript file n't dsc compliant broken well may true however , man page pageview ow 2 0 mention dsc compliance event , point try display ps files using pageview find 's practical tool true man page pageview say files need dsc compliant fault left hand knowing right hand sun informed sun employee pageview program require dsc compliant postscript possibility going changed file n't dsc compliant would stop showpage believe method would preclude able go backwards forwards file , e , could go forward next showpage n't ow3 0 pageview , maybe solaris 2 x version ow \( ow 3 1 \? \) event , find pageview extremely useful since postscript produce dsc compliant , n't problems harvard ucbvax ! uwvax ! astroatc ! ftms ! brown uu2 psi com ! ftms ! brown rutgers internet brown wi extrel com ftms ! brown astroatc uucp cs wisc edu
rainer sun3 eeam elin co \( rainer hochreiter \) subject moving keyboard organization elin energeanwendung ges b h lines 13 nntp posting host sun3 eeam elin co x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 hi xperts ! move cursor keyboard \( e cursor keys \) , mouse available \? hints welcome thanks rainer hochreiter telephone 43 \( 1 \) 89100 3961 elin energieanwendung gesmbh telefax 43 \( 1 \) 89100 3387 penzingerstr 76 1141 wien , austria europe e mail rainer elin co
gb nrao edu \( edmond l \) subject fitting straight line \( curve \) data points organization national radio astronomy observatory lines 17 article land vf ge com \( andrew ward \) writes looking graphing program fit data straight line program estimates closest fit curve gives statistics would helpful many spreadsheets regression analysis topic also well covered undergraduate statistic books cubic splines usually well covered undergraduate computer science numerical analysis text sure ge mm well stocked library never used mathematica , would surprised could spline edmond l programmer , virtual guy , aardvark bigger anon hack hire
mark taylor uucp \( mark davis \) subject blinking cursor xterm \? \? \? organization lake taylor hospital computer services lines 38 dude pcs com \( michael elbel \) writes 1993may16 wariat org allbery wariat org \( allbery \) writes quoted 1993may13 moepi open de bernward moepi open de \( bernward averwald \) back days x11 1 analyse xterm code cursor implemented drawing rectangle around character n't seem changed 'til sources could add blinking cursor via xtappaddtimeout similar server overhead mildly ridiculous , though \( see also desqview x , dos windows \) really want xterm wake every half second whack server bitblt \? \? i'm running emu 25 mhz 68020 box cannot make difference performance whether cursor set blinking \( think bit , cycle 400 ms hell lot time even slowest pc \) since would course enable blinking text cursor xterm input focus , application active anyway repeat , blinking text cursor costs almost nothing performance , needs thought designing xterm software stuck distributed system feedback loop ! xterminal running xterm net another machine \? load problems occur machine 20 xterminals attached blinking cursors xterm 's , could represent considerable ethernet bandwidth waste i'm picking , people keep forgetting lot life besides distributed workstations ! mark davis lake taylor hospital norfolk , va \( 804 \) 461 5001x431 sys administrator computer services mark taylor mark taylor uucp
sti com \( dan r \) subject microsoft buy xhibition \? \? organization software transformation , inc lines 16 nntp posting host jeff sti com jessea u013 vp com \( jesse w asher \) wrote 've getting mail xhibition june conference wondering microsoft bought xhibition \? front says conference microsoft windows nt developers 's deal \? thought x x windows \? \? exactly feeling depressed ever programmed windows x11 , 'd depressed x conference touted tutorials show convert x windows api sort like , convert c classes new , improved c happened \? dan software transformation saratoga sunnyvale rd , 100 sti com \( 408 \) 973 cupertino , ca 95014
tartarus uwa edu au \( neil \) subject cga windows 3 1 organization university western australia lines 11 nntp posting host tartarus uwa edu au x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 hi i`m looking assistance locating information run win 3 1 cga monitor setup suggests look manual , guy i`m helping part large office computer assistance must booked advance , therefore cant get windows onto cga system thanx anticipation neil
km mathcs emory edu \( ken \) subject graphics text x \? organization emory university , dept math cs lines 17 distribution world reply km mathcs emory edu nntp posting host km sl cc emory edu graphics texts examples demos projects directly x \? last time taught course , used popular graphics text uses graphics package , implementations available x mac pc problem course students good programming artificial package , frustrated could n't really use skill work ken km mathcs emory edu preferred emory university rutgers , gatech ! emory ! km uucp dept math cs km emory bitnet non domain bitnet atlanta , ga phone voice \( 404 \) 727 , fax 727
csd harris com \( tim \) subject x professional organization organization harris csd , ft lauderdale , fl lines 4 distribution ssd nntp posting host ssd csd harris com anyone ever heard x professional organization \? anyone member \? membership worth 100 charge \? tim
mathematik uni karlsruhe de \( weber \) subject q whats \? organization university karlsruhe , germany lines 16 nntp posting host mathematik uni karlsruhe de mime version 1 0 content type text plain charset iso 8859 1 content transfer encoding 8bit tried compile old x11r4 motif program newer version motif newer succeed ideas \? cc new main matrix lib verb lib verb tools lib tools lib l tools x11r5 lib lxaw lxmu lxt lx11 lm lxext lxaw lxmu lxt lx11 lm lxext l usr cc sun4 lc ld tools x11r5 lib libxaw sa 5 0 \( \) multiply defined error code 2 make fatal error command failed target thanks , markus weber mathematik uni karlsruhe de sometimes 's nothing feel
ctp com \( \) subject starting x windows organization cambridge technology partners lines 40 soon logged linux , type xinit setting tcp protocol available xfree86 version 1 2 x window system \( protocol version 11 , revision 0 , vendor release 5000 \) configured drivers \( 256 svga \) et4000 , et 3000 , pvga1 , gvga , ati , tvga8900c , \( using vt number 7 \) mouse type mouse systems , device dev mouse , 1200 font path set usr lib x11 fonts type1 , usr lib x11 fonts 75 dpi , usr lib x11 fonts speedo , usr lib x11 fonts , usr lib x11 fonts misc vga 256 et4000 \( mem ok 16 \) vga 256 clocks 25 2 28 3 47 8 41 2 25 4 0 0 47 6 0 0 vga 256 clocks 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 41 3 vga 256 little memory virtual resolution 1024 1204 configured device found , display modes could resolved fatal server error screens found giving xinit interrupted system call \( errno 4 \) unable connect x server xinit process \( errno 3 \) server error getting messages type xinit \? configuration file x windows \( like config sys msdos \) \? start x session \( shell \) \? ctp com
khera cs duke edu \( vivek khera \) subject 'makedepend' problem organization duke university cs dept , durham , nc lines 21 nntp posting host cs duke edu mlt blues infores com \( michael \) reply mlt blues infores com 's message 17 may 93 20 59 30 gmt x md4 signature article 3032 metaphor com mlt blues infores com \( michael \) writes problem 'makedepend' n't know correctly process clause c preprocessor statements evaluates everything true matter anybody come solution fix willing share us \? rewrite 'makedepend' use m' m' \( one prefer , since system headers n't change often \) generating actual 'll still need write parts edit actual makefile think 's program berkeley distributions called essentially vivek khera , gradual student systems guy department computer science internet khera cs duke edu box \( mime mail accepted \) durham , nc \( 919 \) 660
dbl visual com subject 'makedepend' problem organization c visual , inc lines 11 mlt blues infores com , xpert expo lcs mit edu problem 'makedepend' n't know correctly process i'm way adding grammar parsing expressions n't know 'll able get back 're welcome far n't looked versions makedepend , may solve problem elegantly david b lewis temporarily speaking visual , inc day dbl visual com evening david craft uunet uu net
pjs euclid jpl nasa gov \( peter j scott \) subject microsoft buy xhibition \? \? organization jet propulsion laboratory , nasa caltech lines 8 distribution world reply pjs euclid jpl nasa gov nntp posting host euclid jpl nasa gov well , i'm glad 's plenty nt stuff xhibition want use instead x , want find chances time future may choice news peter scott , nasa jpl caltech brain news questions \? \( pjs euclid jpl nasa gov \)
parc xerox com \( berry \) subject cga windows 3 1 organization xerox parc lines 15 sat eng tridom com \( stephen thomas \) writes article uniwa uwa edu au , tartarus uwa edu au \( neil \) writes i`m looking assistance locating information run win 3 1 cga monitor cga driver windows 3 0 works fine win3 1 oh ! oh ! 've taken comp windows misc they're coming us ! berry berry parc xerox com
oj world std com \( oliver jones \) subject xquerytree , , organization shawsheen software lines 24 article 1993may18 viewlogic com josh viewlogic com \( josh marantz \) writes application wants walk server window hierarchy , looking window specific property think happens xquerytree gives array n children , time get nth child window , destroyed get badwindow error , application exits make robust \? 've thought following 2 set x error handler back made offending call safe \? longjmp , return \? badwindow x protocol error write custom error handler exit \( 1 \) error handler return let program carry , using way go , never mind longjmp 3 register windows returned xquerytree hard
brendan emh1 army mil \( brendan \) subject problems characters 127 organization internet lines 33 xpert expo lcs mit edu hi , 've read faq , 've fiddled around , still problems getting poor old hp9000 300 let input display characters 127 following xdefaults xterm font adobe courier bold r normal 14 140 75 75 90 iso8859 1 believe correct font selected use xterm set lc ctype environment variable whatever put , tells locale supported \( apparently additional locales defined , least , lib locale n't exist \) get characters 127 print , 'd expect example , alt v produce u leads believe fault lies stty settings , follows speed 9600 baud line 0 undef undef c quit erase h kill k eof min 4 time 0 stop start q crts echo anyway , 've struggled couple weeks , help anyone could offer would greatly appreciated thanks ! brendan
dls autodesk com \( daniel louis smith \) subject windows motif tools summary organization autodesk inc , sausalito ca , usa lines 67 posted may 12th looking info products take windows source unix box \( sparc \) , produce motif executable another requirement mfc 2 0 supported already know wind u bristol technologies hunter sdk others \? post summary 's wanted got requests asking summary , 'll attempt one 's ones know wind u bristol technologies hunter sdk hunter systems visual solutions hunter company going big changes expect eventually see hunter sdk pop new name moment , difficult get phone calls returned otherwise obtain info hopefully post something things settle visual solutions product heard n't yet support mdi mfc used port , mathematical modeling package native motif widgets , like wind u bristol contact lemieux 508 392 0100 info 's helpful translates windows source unix executable switch windows quasi motif look feel runtime skip xt xm \( motif \) x toolkit levels go straight xlib n't yet support mfc 're 415 896 bristol company seems right track wind u uses xlib xt xm give real motif app seem work trying support things like dde , common dialogs , horizon contact knowledgeable , responds email , wrote example program showing obtain x widgets windows handles 're 203 438 , email info bristol com dls autodesk com dls netcom com daniel l smith , autodesk , sausalito , california , \( 415 \) 332 x disclaimer accuracy statements somehow caffeine intake
spatel cs tamu edu \( k patel \) subject motif widgets using resource file organization computer science department , texas university lines 10 distribution world nntp posting host photon tamu edu posted question motif widgets got working fine one bug file work fine normal case thanks \( spatel cs tamu edu \)
gabi technion ac il \( gabi \) subject wanted interactive gui builder x motif organization technion institute technology lines 23 hi , i'm looking tools make x programming easy would like tool enable create x motif gui currently i'm working sgi forms package enables create gui coding \( callbacks \) help appreciated thanks gabi gabi ee room 608 ph 04 29 \( \) \( \) technion , haifa , israel \( \) interest mapping problem \( c \) e mail gabi technion ac il
hpfcso fc hp com \( greg hughes \) subject hpgl anything converter wanted organization hewlett packard , fort collins , co , usa lines 13 comp windows x , doug happy vf ge com \( doug hughes \) writes 've found hpgl viewer x converter hpgl postscript anybody anything allows convert anything hpgl \? i'm desperately need something like hpgl support raster primitives , would popular image formats probably explains lack translators need plot \? greg hughes fc hp com \( 303 \) 229
brown ftms uucp \( vidiot \) subject compiling ghostview sun openwindows 3 reply brown ftms uucp \( vidiot \) organization vidiot 's hangout lines 23 article curia ucc ie curia ucc ie \( peter flynn \) writes due seems sun 's organisation x libraries includes , standard \( gnu \) software wo n't compile box \( well , tar file \) right i'm trying make ghostview complains ca n't find x11 xaw linked \( ln \) files usr openwin share include x11 thing still complains ca n't find still n't able compile xdvi , way anyone ever managed get anything normal compile sun \( sunos 4 1 3 openwindows 3 \) \? 's trick i'm missing \? 've even tried hard copying relevant files right places every time , 's bit missing refuses find sounds like n't load support libraries ow3 0 loaded xaw support missing 0 added 3 0 harvard ucbvax ! uwvax ! astroatc ! ftms ! brown uu2 psi com ! ftms ! brown rutgers internet brown wi extrel com ftms ! brown astroatc uucp cs wisc edu
brown ftms uucp \( vidiot \) subject program display gif files \? reply brown ftms uucp \( vidiot \) organization vidiot 's hangout lines 19 article minya uucp jc minya uucp \( john chambers \) writes seems silly , 've located things like tgif edit gif files , various tools convert gif format , n't able locate program opens window displays gif file 've looked thru various faq files , also avail one lurking archive \? nothing sophisticated show pretty picture \? alternatively , could locate specs gif , n't suppose would hard write , idea even start looking spec \( well , actually , idea newsgroup \) get , xv , version 3 0 reads displays many different formats harvard ucbvax ! uwvax ! astroatc ! ftms ! brown uu2 psi com ! ftms ! brown rutgers internet brown wi extrel com ftms ! brown astroatc uucp cs wisc edu
cek sdc boeing com \( conrad kimball \) subject problem r4 release organization boeing computer services , seattle , wa lines 48 nntp posting host zulu article mcgary mojo intellection com , mcgary intellection com \( mike mcgary \) writes article news u washington edu pramod stein u washington edu \( pramod \) writes ld unidentified external symbol get wmshellwidgetclass get applicationshellwidgetclass use lxaw lxmu lxext lx11 lxt order proper order wondering changes link libraries include libraries help matter useful highly appreciated get put bstatic options goes away things seem run ok without must called often faq subject 96 \) ! link problem libxmu sunos 4 1 23 \? sunos 4 1 2 sun fixed shared library bug ld conflicts way x builds shared xmu library , causing symbols , notably , undefined building x11 clients get wmshellwidgetclass get applicationshellwidgetclass compiling bstatic lxmu bdynamic appears work solve problem using openwindows 3 0 \( x11r4 based xt \) , please contact local sun office request following patches patch description 02 4 1 x openwindows 3 0 libxt jumbo patch 03 4 1 x openwindows 3 0 undefined symbols using shared libxmu greg earle , earle sun com 7 92 source patch use mit x11r4 libraries developed conrad kimball \( cek sdc boeing com \) r4 fixes made r5 get around problem patch export 1 93 contrib x11r4 sunos4 1 2 patch version3 z conrad kimball client server tech services , boeing computer services cek sdc cs boeing com p box 24346 , ms 7a 35 \( 206 \) 865 seattle , wa 98124 0346
cas org \( larry w virden \) subject ideas xterm paste irritation \? reply lvirden cas org \( larry w virden \) organization software shoe , uninc lines 14 article stanford edu stanford edu \( hui , day \) writes read xterm 's manual pages informations avaliable actions xterm read faq get good book customizing x applications okay , byte could someone provide info book customizing x \? search one expect reader x11 source code \( even available online ! \) larry w virden inet lvirden cas org personal 674 falls place , , oh
wijkstra fwi uva nl \( marcel wijkstra \( aio \) \) subject resources cpp help ! organization fwi , university amsterdam lines 35 nntp posting host ic fwi uva nl hi , running x11r4 ibm rs 6000 \( aix 3 2 \) x11r5 sun4 \( sunos 4 1 \) since run x colour black white displays , need different values resource , want use ifdef color application defaults files however , cpp invoked xrdb , resources loaded demand proper solution \? far , proper solution 've come think , create 2 different files app defaults , say xterm xterm color , set xfilesearchpath either home n home n color always seem work \( e g executing remote shell command without reading cshrc set xfilesearchpath \) furthermore , thought using include xterm xterm color however , resources xterm want override xterm color , things different machines sun , first found resource used \( e one xterm , b w one \) , rs 6000 , last found value used \( e one xterm color \) \? one last question specification xfilesearchpath , use , n , c stands app defaults , n resource class , c stand \? thanks advance replying , marcel x drs marcel wijkstra \( aio visualization \) wijkstra fwi uva nl x faculty mathematics computer science ph 31 20 525 x university amsterdam netherlands fx 31 20 525 life stinks fortunately , 've got cold
vipunen hut fi \( sakari \) subject axe hp ux problem nntp posting host vipunen hut fi reply vipunen hut fi \( sakari \) organization helsinki university technology lines 14 happy axe linux wanted use hp ux , however , attempts ended core dumps far \( bus error \) anybody else successful \? jim install file say problems data axe 5 0 hp ux 9 01 x11r4 x11r5 doesn`t seem matter \( shared libs \) hp 9000 720 thanks advance , sakari linux ftp able unix clone 386 486 pc 's vipunen hut fi mind ,
sommer ips cs tu bs de \( sommer \) subject looking file manager twm keywords file manager , twm nntp posting host ips cs tu bs de organization inst f informatik , tu braunschweig , frg lines 24 hi ! every command line shell user close ears , , eyes i'm looking x file manager driven twm somebody told last night , one openwindows \( certainly one ms windows \) 'd like x one , know , icon 's , click drag , directory structures shown graphic layout , paper basket etc anybody got idea \? please reply sommer , better known \( nur ist ! \) e mail sommer ips cs tu bs de transform roll ! \( transformers \)
ln doc ic ac uk \( leonidas \) subject xcreateregion works \? \? organization department computing , imperial college , university london , uk lines 28 distribution world nntp posting host finch doc ic ac uk keywords xlib , hi , could someone explain exactly xlib functions xcreateregion , , , suggest ftp site find programs using functions ps man pages explain much thank , leo leonidas ln doc ic ac uk imperial college , london , uk dept computing
ik arrow ctt bellcore com \( ik su yoo \) subject microsoft buy xhibition \? \? reply mark taylor uucp 's message tue , 18 may 1993 21 00 29 gmt nntp posting host 128 96 136 123 reply ik su yoo ik bellcore com organization bell communications research 1993may18 taylor uucp names nerdc ufl edu elroy jpl nasa gov 1993may18 taylor uucp distribution usa lines 40 mark mark davis mark taylor uucp writes article 1993may18 taylor uucp mark taylor uucp \( mark davis \) writes mark ones control use mark follow like blind sheep cause markets i'm sure mark enough paid market nt conferences without mark needing conference open windowing mark know planning go would cancel mark eyes closed , nt belong mark conference would , however , like go closed mark environment nt conference see product curious mark doubt , however , based objective opinions trust , mark would impressed many \( \? \) people believe xhibition '93 one paid market hype nt conferences \( put \) \? one going , , , curious technology think great chance learn nt , mainly presented x 's home turf believe attendees mostly x backgrounds \( biases \? \) thus , expect nt presentations face tough audience person judge whether nt hyped closely get evaluating nt technology without actually using , n't time nt turns vapor technology get bored , many interesting tutorials presentations wo n't waste time california \? ! \? \) thoughts ik su yoo , ik bellcore com
pb idca tds philips nl \( peter \) subject mysterious xdm files reply pb idca tds philips nl \( peter \) organization digital equipment enterprise b v , apeldoorn , netherlands lines 25 x disclaimer views unless stated otherwise 1993may18 csi jpl nasa gov csi jpl nasa gov \( matt \) writes i'm getting lots files usr lib x11 xdm form 0 i'm running xdm anybody know , better yet , move \( e , resource change make appear somewhere else \) \? authorisation files server depending type key x supports contain magic cookies , des based authentication sun des authentication place defined displaymanager things like file name changed well see xdm manual pages peter , digital equipment enterprise , net pb idca tds philips nl integration industry standard systems , phone ext 31 0 55 , dept systems , v1 b7 fax ext 31 0 55 p box 245 , apeldoorn , netherlands
queloz bernina ethz ch \( ronald queloz \) subject integration keyboard sco odt 2 0 organization swiss federal institute technology \( eth \) , zurich , ch lines 13 sco odt allows adapt x server non standard \( \) keyboard using configuration compiler sco provides configuration files usr lib x11 , e g siemens question anywhere configuration file keyboard available \? especially interested using hp specific keys , menu thanks ron
dealy narya gsfc nasa gov \( brian dealy csc \) subject xcreateregion works \? \? organization nasa goddard space flight center lines 87 distribution world nntp posting host narya gsfc nasa gov keywords xlib , originator dealy narya gsfc nasa gov article finch doc ic ac uk , ln doc ic ac uk \( leonidas \) writes hi , could someone explain exactly xlib functions xcreateregion , , , suggest ftp site find programs using functions ps man pages explain much thank , leo leonidas ln doc ic ac uk imperial college , london , uk dept computing use routines widget redraws exposed areas 's small piece code uses routines static void \( pw , ev , region \) pw ev region region pp exposure region pp pw plotter pp exposure region xcreateregion \( \) region passed via expose event \( region null \) \( ev send event \) synthetic event sent widget wants full redraw exporect x pw core x exporect pw core exporect width pw core width exporect height pw core height else exporect x ev x exporect ev exporect width ev width exporect height ev height stuff deleted region contains exposure region \( exporect , pp exposure region , pp exposure region \) else \( region , pp exposure region , pp exposure region \) stuff deleted need clip expose region redrawing grid \( \( pw \) , pp gc , pp exposure region \) stuff deleted check see child exposed \( \( pw plotter exposure region , child core x , child core , child core width , child core height \) \) , build region exposures service container widget redraw children , redraw need redrawn works , hope helps brian brian dealy 301 572 8267 knowing 's dealy kong gsfc nasa gov 's important , 's knowing ! uunet ! dftsrv ! kong ! dealy 's b dylan
uproar enet dec com \( marc \) subject looking file manager twm organization digital equipment corporation lines 27 article 1993may19 ips cs tu bs de , sommer ips cs tu bs de \( sommer \) writes hi ! every command line shell user close ears , , eyes i'm looking x file manager driven twm somebody told last night , one openwindows \( certainly one ms windows \) 'd like x one , know , icon 's , click drag , directory structures shown graphic layout , paper basket etc anybody got idea \? 've recently joined motif world , 'd like similar tool motif 've used openwin one past miss cheers , r c marc cr ltd 44 \( 0 \) 895 place , drive , marc mts dec com uxbridge , middlesex ,
rick ee uwm edu \( rick miller linux device registrar \) subject find list toolkit options \? organization lines 9 nntp posting host 129 89 2 33 x face bo 'e , \( \( k g 6 pd \( 0g w , `x r zs 've started messing x windows linux , 've run toolkit options thing man pages number x clients get list options \? xview thing \? \( , would kind soul show set linux \? \) rick miller rick ee uwm edu ricxjo discus mil wi us ricxjo muelisto send postcard , get one back ! enposxtigu bildkarton kaj vi ricevos alion ! rick miller 16203 woods muskego , wis 53150 usa
mark taylor uucp \( mark davis \) subject blinking cursor xterm \? \? \? organization lake taylor hospital computer services lines 25 barmar think com \( barry margolin \) writes article 1993may18 taylor uucp mark taylor uucp \( mark davis \) writes stuck distributed system feedback loop ! xterminal running xterm net another machine \? load problems occur machine 20 xterminals attached blinking cursors xterm 's , could represent considerable ethernet bandwidth waste ethernet certainly enough bandwidth blinking cursors lisp machine cursor twice second updates time status line every second uses 1k bytes second , 1 bandwidth ethernet hundred single ethernet might problem , couple dozen fine granted 's nothing loose sleep , ethernet 's tragic flaw activity \( especially lots tiny activity \) , collisions happen performance gets exponentially worse opposing kind waste bandwidth ethernet although polling system would bad mark davis lake taylor hospital norfolk , va \( 804 \) 461 5001x431 sys administrator computer services mark taylor mark taylor uucp
mek hydrox enet dec com \( mark \) subject x received usenet pa dec com id wed , 19 may 93 06 20 27 0700 x received enet gw pa dec com id wed , 19 may 93 06 20 22 0700 x received hydrox enet decwrl enet wed , 19 may 93 06 20 22 pdt x comp windows x usenet x apparently comp windows x usenet lines 22 help , 've got applications series pushbuttons across top \( \) wanted add pushbuttons put descriptive text function pointer crosses 've done fine , 've turned following problem pushbuttons sensitive get callbacks events , sensitive get callbacks events seems odd would expect nothing type thing bug \? , someone explain behavior \? thanks , mark
mich lin se \( thomas \) subject gui builders vms organization , linkoping , sweden lines 28 article 352 trident datasys swri edu mark trident datasys swri edu \( mark collier \) writes looking gui builders uims 's run vms openvms environment interested motif tools gui independent tools xvt client also requires tool production least 6 months vms environment note list tools faq , info vms availability thanks take look teleuse , complete uims alsys \( formerly telesoft \) us , reach \( 619 \) 457 2700 alsys vms version teleuse v2 0 5 vms v5 5 higher , built using decwindows motif 1 0 \( based x11r4 motif v1 1 1 \) btw , vms port unix version made company , released november 1992 thomas ` ` dial 46 13 linkoping , , phone email thomas direct lin se l n k p n g w e e n fax ` ' ` '
cus cam ac uk \( nick \) subject blinking cursor xterm \? \? \? nntp posting host bootes cus cam ac uk organization u cambridge , england lines 39 article early bird think com barmar think com \( barry margolin \) writes article 1993may18 taylor uucp mark taylor uucp \( mark davis \) writes stuck distributed system feedback loop ! xterminal running xterm net another machine \? load problems occur machine 20 xterminals attached blinking cursors xterm 's , could represent considerable ethernet bandwidth waste ethernet certainly enough bandwidth blinking cursors lisp machine cursor twice second updates time status line every second uses 1k bytes second , 1 bandwidth ethernet hundred single ethernet might problem , couple dozen fine bandwidth unlikely problem , except wet string network one major flaws x horrendous number transactions \( hence process switches \) forces upon host actual measurements \( hourly average \) 5 per second per logged user , lead 20 50 process switches \( depending whether event filtered window manager well applications many processes needed character \) blinking cursor needs application networking process , add transactions , add something like 10 process switches per second per user significant increase overhead , especially application may quite large working set want rapidly blinking cursor , could many 50 want go , would n't start ! nick university cambridge computer laboratory , new museums site , street , cambridge cb2 , england email cus cam ac uk tel 44 223 fax 44 223
beck inf tu dresden de \( andre beck \) subject xdm backgroundpixmap \? organization dept computer science , tu dresden , germany lines 17 distribution world reply andre beck irs inf tu dresden de nntp posting host inf tu dresden de hi , 've tried get rid xdm 's ugly login window giving backgroundpixmap login derived core , possible anyway , setting backgroundpixmap b c xpm produce message form convert string registering converter lead nothing , way \? brain inside andre' beck \( abpsoft \) mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de
j k wight newcastle ac uk \( jim wight \) subject athena help ! ! ! nntp posting host organization university newcastle upon tyne , uk , ne1 7ru lines 15 cs rit edu \( c \) writes currently programming athena toolkit problems creating text widget help greatly appreciated assume literally trying create widget type use widget instead jim j k wight newcastle ac uk department computing science , university newcastle , tel 44 91 222 8238 newcastle upon tyne , ne1 7ru , united kingdom fax 44 91 222 8232
mick ie subject looking converters xpm organization financial software lines 7 looking utilities converting gifs jpegs ps etc xpm format \? information appreciated thanks , michael
hou siemens com \( tai yuan hou \) subject iconize window \? keywords icon , window nntp posting host orion siemens com organization siemens corporate research , princeton \( \) , nj lines 7 application running one window application , 'd like iconize window , later back window could \? help would appreciated tai thou siemens com
scot bristol nosubdomain nodomain \( scot wingo \) subject cool demo available internet ! keywords hyperhelp , xprinter , bristol , cool organization bristol technology inc lines 92 bristol technology announces availability hyperhelp \( tm \) xprinter \( tm \) demo downloading demo two products form diagram editor called de download demo see exciting features complete line context sensitive help system printing support postscript rotated text support ! source code demo provided demo available via anonymous ftp ftp uu net \( 137 39 1 9 \) two versions demo located vendor bristol directory sun sun4 demo tar z \( sunos 4 x \) hp tar z \( hp ux 8 9 \) questions demo , send e mail support bristol com want another version demo \( rs6000 , etc \) please send e mail info bristol com remember use binary mode ! hyperhelp xprinter \? read bristol technology proud announce version 3 0 popular hyperhelp product version 2 0 xprinter hyperhelp 3 0 hyperhelp de facto standard line context sensitive help unix marketplace one line function call , application developers access full features hyperhelp cut drastically development time hyperhelp use rtf , project , bitmap files ms windows help facility allows documentation department maintain single set help documents portable ms windows , motif open look hyperhelp also authored framemaker hyperhelp 3 0 bristol sgml compiler ! new features hyperhelp 3 0 include secondary windows , character based viewer , segmented bitmaps , sgml support , improved history window xprinter 2 0 xprinter 2 0 allows developers add sophisticated printer support existing new x based applications easily xprinter uses xlib api display printer lets use exact code drawing printing take look source code demo see xprinter action interested adding postscript support application , xprinter tool ! earlier year dn usl signed agreement resulted xprinter becoming standard printing technology unix svr4 2 feel free run demo let us know think hyperhelp xprinter questions comments , send us info bristol com call us \( 203 \) 438 happy , staff bristol technology
henne math edu \( leslie r henne \) subject ideas xterm paste irritation \? organization internet lines 20 wolf cs stanford edu cc xpert expo lcs mit edu com , wolf cs stanford edu writes moving mouse xterm window clicking abort paste fact , middle button pressed , paste inevitable , obvious questions way around \? , others feel moving mouse xterm window release abort paste \? would thought would common enough problem someone would changed xterm , maybe 's michael aggravated many times mouse making hay , would ever grateful everyone would make keyboard alternatives mouse actions
curtis aries wistar upenn edu subject setting display reply curtis aries wistar upenn edu \( \) lines 14 nntp posting host aries wistar upenn edu working company one connection internet firewall gateway \( unix workstation \) would like able telnet host outside company set display pc running x terminal emulator \( exceed w \) display set gateway workstation problem set variable ip address get error ca n't open display message ca n't hard work around \? btw trouble running x clients local workstations \( company \) display pc curtis wahlgren
kbw helios ath epa gov \( kevin b weinrich \) subject tcpview n't read xkeysymdb file \? organization computer sciences corp lines 25 distribution world nntp posting host helios ath epa gov tcpview sun users \? pulled pre compiled executables made sun tcpview , i'm getting whole slew following types error messages try start warning translation table syntax error unknown keysym name osfactivate warning found parsing ' key osfactivate \( \) ' warning translation table syntax error unknown keysym name osfcancel warning found parsing ' key osfcancel \( \) ' warning translation table syntax error unknown keysym name osfselect warning found parsing ' key osfselect \( \) ' know keysym osfactivate osfcancel osfselect openwinhome lib xkeysymdb yields osfactivate osfselect osfcancel , take osf lines said xkeysymdb , copy wscrawl \( another motif compiled sun program \) gives type complaints listed tips \? i'm mystified kevin weinrich computer sciences corp kbw helios ath epa gov
main lambda msfc nasa gov \( john main \) subject exist \? summary need od interface keywords x od organization nasa msfc lines 13 hello , wondering anyone knew interface od \( octal dump \) , assume would called actually , viewer core file looked export \( mit \) index contrib , n't find anything relevant thanks , hate winter main superman msfc nasa gov
iop iie edu tw subject program wm protocols open look toolkit organization lab lines 195 hi , studying book unix desktop guide open look example c demonstrate program wm protocols property chapter 8 run , show static text messages , notice pop problem \? thanks advance help ! ! 1 iop file c shows set properties window include x11 h definition xa atom include x11 intrinsic h include x11 h include xol openlook h include xol h include xol h include xol notice h file defines atoms ol prefix id top level noticeshell widget static widget top level , notice shell static widget make notice \( \) static char message clients use properties communicate window manager example illustrates open look application requests notification window manager certain events occur communication form event application processes event handler atoms used inter client communication atom atom wm protocols , atom wm delete window , atom wm save static void handle wm messages \( \) static void save exit \( \) static void save \( \) static void pop notice \( \) static void exit \( \) string hold line \( use responding wm save protocol message char saved cmdline 128 void main \( argc , argv \) int argc char argv widget w int save command line use responding wm save protocol message sprintf \( saved cmdline , , argv 0 \) \( argc 1 \) \( 1 argc \) \( saved cmdline , argv \) \( saved cmdline , \) create initialize top level widget top level \( argv 0 , ol main , null , 0 , argc , argv \) create widget w xtvacreatemanagedwidget \( , , top level , , message , , 200 , null \) create noticeshell widget later use make notice \( top level \) intern atoms atom wm protocols xinternatom \( xtdisplay \( w \) , wm protocols , false \) atom wm delete window xinternatom \( xtdisplay \( w \) , wm delete window , false \) atom wm save xinternatom \( xtdisplay \( w \) , wm save , false \) add event handler process events sent window manager xtaddeventhandler \( top level , , true , handle wm messages , null \) realize widgets start processing events xtrealizewidget \( top level \) append properties wm delete window wm save definition wm protocols property step requires window id top level widget window id valid widget realized \( xtdisplay \( top level \) , xtwindow \( top level \) , atom wm protocols , xa atom , 32 , , atom wm delete window , 1 \) \( xtdisplay \( top level \) , xtwindow \( top level \) , atom wm protocols , xa atom , 32 , , atom wm save , 1 \) xtmainloop \( \) static void handle wm messages \( w , client data , p event \) widget w xtpointer client data xevent p event \( p event type p event xclient message type atom wm protocols \) \( p event xclient data l 0 atom wm delete window \) save exit \( \) \( p event xclient data l 0 atom wm save \) save \( \) static void save exit \( \) display notice giving user chance respond pop notice \( top level , notice shell \) static void save \( \) set wm command property saved command line \( xtdisplay \( top level \) , xtwindow \( top level \) , xa wm command , xa string , 8 , , saved cmdline , strlen \( saved cmdline \) 1 \) static widget make notice \( parent \) widget parent widget w , n text , n control , n exit , n cancel create button provide callback pop notice w xtvacreatemanagedwidget \( , , parent , xtnlabel , exit , null \) xtaddcallback \( w , , pop notice , null \) create noticeshell widget note use instead usual xtvacreatemanagedwidget notice shell \( , , w , null \) get id text control area widgets noticeshell \( notice shell , , n text , , n control , null \) place message text area noticeshell xtvasetvalues \( n text , , please confirm exit program , null \) add buttons control area noticeshell button appropriate callback n exit xtvacreatemanagedwidget \( , , n control , xtnlabel , exit , null \) xtaddcallback \( n exit , , exit , null \) n cancel xtvacreatemanagedwidget \( , , n control , xtnlabel , cancel , , true , null \) return w static void pop notice \( w , w notice \) widget w , w notice xtvasetvalues \( w notice , , w , null \) pop noticeshell widget noticeshell widget makes sure waits user selects one buttons noticeshell 's control area \( w notice , \) static void exit \( w , call data , client data \) widget w xtpointer call data , client data \( xtdisplay \( w \) \) exit \( 0 \)
mccoy gothamcity jsc nasa gov \( daniel mccoy \) subject reply mccoy gothamcity jsc nasa gov organization net inc x posted krakatoa jsc nasa gov nntp posting host sol ctr columbia edu lines 15 article vtserf cc vt edu , smyrna cc vt edu \( ray stell \) writes install x11r5 backward compatibility motif , motif 1 2 clients work x11r5 servers \? works 've run motif 1 1 3 , 1 1 4 , 1 1 5 , 1 2 , 1 2 1 , 1 2 2 x11r5 server defined daniel j mccoy space net , inc nasa mail code pt4 tel 713 483 nasa johnson space center fax 713 244 houston , texas 77058 future mccoy gothamcity jsc nasa gov
ccu umanitoba ca \( michael \) subject compiling ghostview sun openwindows 3 nntp posting host ccu umanitoba ca organization university manitoba , winnipeg , canada lines 31 615 ftms uucp brown ftms uucp \( vidiot \) writes article curia ucc ie curia ucc ie \( peter flynn \) writes due seems sun 's organisation x libraries includes , standard \( gnu \) software wo n't compile box \( well , tar file \) right i'm trying make ghostview complains ca n't find x11 xaw linked \( ln \) files usr openwin share include x11 thing still complains ca n't find still n't able compile xdvi , way anyone ever managed get anything normal compile sun \( sunos 4 1 3 openwindows 3 \) \? 's trick i'm missing \? 've even tried hard copying relevant files right places every time , 's bit missing refuses find sounds like n't load support libraries ow3 0 loaded xaw support missing 0 added 3 0 harvard ucbvax ! uwvax ! astroatc ! ftms ! brown uu2 psi com ! ftms ! brown rutgers internet brown wi extrel com ftms ! brown astroatc uucp cs wisc edu library might pointed ld library path michael
dnichols com \( nichols \) subject maxtor 2190 info needed \( unix pc software sale \) nntp posting host organization data , vienna va lines 28 article cup portal com thad cup portal com \( thad p floryan \) writes article colinm cunews colinm max carleton ca \( colin mcfadyen \) writes anyone know jumpers set maxtor 2190 \? \? 2190 came vs2000 would like use pc useful info maxtor drive deleted since 3b1 normally one hd , would jumper c1 select first \( possible \) drive address 2190 second drive 3b1 , jumper 2c however , thad , note said would like use , also note strange cross posting \( probably \) , sure exactly sort machine intends mount pc \( clone \) , 2c jumper would correct choice 've left cross posting effect , since i'm sure newsgroup would really reading \) email dnichols com ! uunet ! ! dnichols dnichols com donald nichols \( \) voice \( days \) \( 703 \) 704 2280 \( \) \( 703 \) 938 black holes god dividing zero
jack acs2 bu edu subject sale misc computer parts radar detector distribution na organization boston university , boston , , usa lines 183 originator jack acs2 bu edu following computer items sale item condition price \( \) color ega card monitor working 180 00 monitor made zenith \( b \) \( 3 \) 80ns simms mt working 25 00 \( 16 \) 256k 80ns simms oki working 3 00 \( 4 \) 256k 100ns simms working 2 75 \( 4 \) 256k 100ns simms motorola working 2 75 \( 4 \) 256k simms nec working 2 50 note simms left numerous macintosh upgrade years questions one fits mac , please mail back \( c \) \( 2 \) ast card 512k working 25 00 could upgraded 2m dram item \( \) \( \) \( 54 \) 256k 100ns dram ti working 0 50 \( 36 \) 256k 100ns dram oki working 0 50 \( 18 \) 256k 100ns dram working 0 50 \( e \) compaq classic portable computer working 150 00 2 360k floppy drives amber 9 inch screen 256k ram \( f \) \( 2 \) serial card working 10 00 \( g \) western digital disk controller working 30 00 wd1003 wah 16 bit card floopy harddisk \( h \) logitech 3 buttons mechanical working 20 00 serial mouse \( \) \( 1 \) full size case working 35 00 power supply \( 1 \) full size case working 60 00 power supply original case ast premium 286 computer , could 5 half height devices \( three could floopy drives , tape drive etc \) also including original 286 motherboard condition unknown \( j \) \( 2 \) 1 2m 5 25 floopy drive working 30 00 \( 1 \) 1 44 3 5 floopy drive working 38 00 \( k \) adaptec 1542b scsi adapter brand new 220 00 \( l \) wangtek scsi working 200 00 1 4 tape drive \( \) 1 2 height 40m mfm drive working 100 00 miniscribe \? 1 2 height 40m mfm drive working 100 00 seagate st 251 1 1 2 height 20m mfm drive working 50 00 seagate \( n \) prodigy start kit brand new 45 00 pc 24 96 data fax modem following items selling , unknown condition , either never get work never try hook \( \) ega card unknown 5 00 \( p \) multi function game clock unknown 5 00 parallel serial port card \( q \) monochrome graphics 132 columns unknown 5 00 graphics card \( r \) cdc 344 scsi drive unknown 150 00 \( q \) miniscribe 20m scsi drive unknown 15 00 \( r \) prodigy start kit unknown free \( \) \( 2 \) ast 3g plus chip unknown 2 00 \( \) seagate 80m mfm drive unknown 80 00 model st 4096 bought radar detector couple years ago obvious reason \( \) never past 3 years n't drive work anymore would rather sell \( u \) 425 radar detector working 30 00 x k bands would like buy items , please mail jack acs bu edu also , 10 automatic discount apply total purchase price 100 \( except two brand new items \) buyer \( \) pay shipping think prices listed unrealistic , please mail back would take advice consideration make proper adjustments reason selling stuff decided enough hobby pc computing want move interests one last thing , know non profit organization might interested , please let know one wants buy , might well donate get tax break thanks jack jack acs bu edu bitnet jack c chan boston university arpa jack bu bu edu internet jack bu bu edu
colinm max carleton ca \( colin mcfadyen \) subject maxtor 2190 info needed \( unix pc software sale \) organization carleton university lines 36 1993apr22 com dnichols com \( nichols \) writes article cup portal com thad cup portal com \( thad p floryan \) writes article colinm cunews colinm max carleton ca \( colin mcfadyen \) writes anyone know jumpers set maxtor 2190 \? \? 2190 came vs2000 would like use pc useful info maxtor drive deleted since 3b1 normally one hd , would jumper c1 select first \( possible \) drive address 2190 second drive 3b1 , jumper 2c however , thad , note said would like use , also note strange cross posting \( probably \) , sure exactly sort machine intends mount pc \( clone \) , 2c jumper would correct choice 've left cross posting effect , since i'm sure newsgroup would really reading \) sorry confusion may created disk come vs2000 would like use ibm pc clone reason posted comp sys 3b1 saw drive \( \) mentioned notice asked info n't receive replies thanks help colin
ra cs umb edu \( steven r \) subject sell chemical condensers article cs 1993apr22 organization university massachusetts boston lines 22 nntp posting host ra cs umb edu condensers , kimble modern west jacket length 500 mm glass , straight tubes plastic end caps exactly like central scientific 's series condensers sold american science surplus 's april catalog 20 original \( old \) packaging 13 15 volume discounts buy discount bonus 3 8 10 free insurance 9 30 free shipping insurance quality control , opened inspected damage \) buyer must pay shipping insurance unless otherwise noted shipping 2 00 one two 3 00 three four etc insurance 0 75 per tube cs umb edu univ home standard disclaimer boston massachusetts usa
mzhao magnus acs ohio state edu \( min zhao \) subject cheap harddisk pc xt nntp posting host bottom magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university distribution na lines 16 original ibm 10mb harddisks sale actually seagate 's st412 , mfm , full height , ibm logo black face plate disk checked formatted dos 5 0 doubled 20mb dblspace stacker desire original ibm foam fitted anti static bags sure ever used , drive sent good working order 30 plus shipping cost , \( 5 \) , one old ibm xt pcs , ! 's cheaper floppy drive !
jb access digex com \( jb \) subject genesis games sale \( updated expanded \) organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 14 distribution na nntp posting host access digex net sega genesis games sale \( games 25 ! \) galaxy force ii jordan vs bird \( one one , shoot outs , etc \) test drive ii duel \( comes box \) iii also sale football '93 joe montana 35 games include manual case shipping 4 per order \( 2nd day priority \) john baker
odysseas umbc edu \( odysseas \) subject unix pc software sale article umbc7 distribution world organization university maryland , baltimore county campus lines 17 nntp posting host umbc7 umbc edu x auth user odysseas hello , two sale one 1mb ram one 2mb ram system running 3 version loaded lots software network like gcc , emacs , tex latex asking 500 1mb , 650 2mb model best offer odysseas odysseas umbc7 umbc edu university md electrical engineering dept odysseas polaris ab umd edu \( 301 \) 498 \( 410 \) 706 2042
hawaii edu subject quantum lps 240at \( 234 meg ide \) forsale 300 keywords ide harddisk forsale 300 organization university hawaii distribution usa expires sat , 1 may 1993 10 00 00 gmt lines 14 hi netters , quantum lps 240at harddisk forsale 3 5 frame , 1 3 height ide format , master slave 723 cyl 13 hd 51 234 9 real megs access time 16 ms 256k cache drive asking 300 email uhcc hawaii edu
tsai eniac seas upenn edu \( joe tsai \) subject bus tix sale lehigh philly distribution usa organization university pennsylvania lines 16 nntp posting host eniac seas upenn edu two \( 2 \) bus tickets sale bethlehem pa \( lehigh university \) philadelphia pa tickets good august 24 , 1993 15 obo please email tsai eniac seas upenn edu call \( 215 \) 573 \( joe tsai \) tsai eniac seas upenn edu wharton school '96 a500 school engineering back back 93 94 ! applied science '96 university pennsylvania flowers often bloom night r e xx
feng qian launchpad unc edu \( feng qian \) subject irwin tapes \( \) sale nntp posting host lambada oit unc edu organization university north carolina extended bulletin board service lines 13 well , irwin 250 mb , great deal genuine irwin 120 250 tapes , 16 ea 3m tapes 16 ea tapes new , never used , factory preformatted email interested feng opinions expressed necessarily university north carolina chapel hill , campus office information technology , experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu 152 2 22 80
cbnewse cb att com \( ronald \) subject c 64 computer , disk drives , mouse software sale organization distribution chi lines 22 , finally cleaned storage room following items sale c 64 computer 2 1542 disk drives 1351 mouse cables lots software \( mostly games \) computer drives work \( hooked tv test \) except sound evidently sound chip gone geos loaded , mouse would respond , assume bad could used games , spare parts interested , would accept reasonable offers send replies ! call \( 708 \) 979 ron
nyx cs du edu \( \) subject accelerator 4 500 1000 2000 organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept lines 7 deal one , buyer disappear , go market inexpensive accelerator 500 2000 series lucas frances , preferred something like , please offer address nyx cs du edu , reach home 358 0 802
jburgin ralph cs haverford edu \( joshua marc \) subject sale kenwood receiver organization haverford college computer science department lines 24 nntp posting host 130 58 179 176 sale kenwood audio visual surround sound receiver 1 5 yrs old , perfect condition , still 5 year warranty 75 watts x 2 front watts rear surround surround 3 video , 2 tape , 1 cd , 1 phono input full easy touch button control functions bass treble balance rear level knobs earphone input digital synthesized tuner presets full logic remote control volume , mute , tuner controls three outlets back , connect equipment turn time includes manuals , cables , original packaging great addition anyone starting home theater , stereo system originally purchased 379 , asking 150 email jburgin ralph cs haverford edu phone 215 645 thank time
duane tamsun tamu edu \( duane k fields \) subject sharp wizard sale organization texas university , college station , tx lines 34 distribution world nntp posting host tamsun tamu edu sharp wizard oz 8000 electronic organizer w 64k ram home world clocks calendar anniversary periodic dates 3 telephone directories business card directory calculator memos screen qwerty style keyboard alarms password protection pc computer interface \( requires cable \) software card slot w touch screen vt100 terminal \( requires cable modem \) also external battery pack uses aa 's mail order price sharp 300 battery pak 35 asking 150 whole deal unit perfect shape , n't use anything address book duane fields friends n't work \( 409 \) 845 box let friends use home \( 409 \) 847 college station , tx ms dos email tamu edu
ucsd edu \( \) subject wanted tb driver sp sx distribution na lines 14 nntp posting host ucsd edu anyone copy driver turtle beach 's program allows use always tech 2000 scsi card dumps pc sp sx \? \? \? normally available directly turtle beach wondering someone got could n't find use copy let know ! ucsd edu
mallen eniac seas upenn edu \( matt allen \) subject commodore amiga sale keywords commodore amiga monitor distribution usa organization university pennsylvania lines 13 nntp posting host eniac seas upenn edu sale complete amiga 1000 computer system 450 best offer amiga 1000 512k ram 1 internal , 1 external 3 5 floppy diskette drive detachable keyboard two button mouse rgb monitor equipment made commodore send e mail allen edu call \( 717 \) 872
jrm elm circa ufl edu \( jeff mason \) subject jeff mason 's auction marvel , dc , image , valiant , etc organization univ florida psychology dept lines 106 nntp posting host elm circa ufl edu summary wednesday april 21 , 1993 update following comics auction highest bid takes ! new stuff added ! \( ! mr premium comic ! \) title minimum current alpha flight 51 \( jim lee 's first work marvel \) 5 00 aliens 1 \( 1st app aliens comics , 1st prnt , may 1988 \) 20 00 krism three amazing spider man 136 \( intro new green goblin \) 20 00 amazing spider man 238 \( 1st appearance hobgoblin \) 50 00 archer armstrong 1 \( frank miller smith layton \) 7 50 avengers 263 \( 1st appearance x factor \) 3 50 bloodshot 1 \( chromium cover , bwsmith cover poster \) 5 00 daredevil 158 \( frank miller art begins \) 35 00 dark horse presents 1 \( 1st app concrete , 1st printing \) 7 50 detective 657 \( azrael appears , intro cypher \) 5 00 harbinger 10 \( 1st appearance h r corps \) 7 00 b matthey sold h r corps 1 5 00 incredible hulk 324 \( 1st app grey hulk since 1 1962 \) 7 00 incredible hulk 330 \( 1st mcfarlane issue \) 15 00 incredible hulk 331 \( grey hulk series begins \) 11 00 incredible hulk 367 \( 1st dale keown art hulk \) 15 00 incredible hulk 377 \( 1st new hulk , 1st prnt , keown \) 15 00 marvel comics presents 1 \( wolverine , silver surfer \) 7 50 maxx limited ashcan \( 4000 copies exist , blue cover \) 33 50 brentb three mr 1 \( signed advance copy , 10 , 000 exist \) 10 00 new mutants 86 \( mcfarlane cover , 1st app cable cameo \) 10 00 new mutants 100 \( 1st app x force \) 5 00 new mutants annual 5 \( 1st liefeld art new mutants \) 10 00 omega men 3 \( 1st appearance lobo \) 7 50 omega men 10 \( 1st full lobo story \) 7 50 power man iron fist 78 \( 3rd appearance sabretooth \) 20 00 power man iron fist 84 \( 4th appearance sabretooth \) 15 00 simpsons comics stories 1 \( polybagged special ed \) 7 50 spectacular spider man 147 \( 1st app new hobgoblin \) 12 50 star trek next generation 1 \( feb 1988 , dc mini \) 7 50 star trek next generation 1 \( oct 1989 , dc comics \) 7 50 trianglehead 1 \( special limited edition , \) 5 00 web spider man 29 \( hobgoblin , wolverine appear \) 10 00 web spider man 30 \( origin rose , hobgoblin appears \) 7 50 wolverine 10 \( claws , 1st battle sabretooth \) 15 00 wolverine 41 \( sabretooth claims wolverine 's dad \) 5 00 wolverine 42 \( sabretooth proven dad \) 3 50 wolverine 43 \( sabretooth wolverine saga concludes \) 3 00 wolverine 1 \( 1982 mini series , miller art \) 20 00 wonder woman 267 \( return animal man \) 12 50 x force 1 \( signed liefeld , bagged , x force card \) 20 00 x force 1 \( signed liefeld , bagged , shatterstar card \) 10 00 x force 1 \( signed liefeld , bagged , deadpool card \) 10 00 x force 1 \( signed liefeld , bagged , sunspot gideon \) 10 00 comics near mint mint condition , bagged shiny polypropylene bags , backed white acid free boards shipping 1 50 one book , 3 00 one book , free order large enough amount stuff willing haggle thousands thousands comics , please let know 've looking , maybe help titles posted n't list every issue title , tried save space geoffrey r mason jrm elm circa ufl edu department psychology mason webb psych ufl edu university florida prothan maple circa ufl edu
jrm elm circa ufl edu \( jeff mason \) subject comic book set sale z organization university florida , gainesville lines 118 nntp posting host elm circa ufl edu selling following sets comics listed guide prices \( overstreet , comics values monthly wizard could n't find overstreet \) well price feel free ask single items sets , often extra copies items set comics near mint mint unless otherwise noted set titles guide price 1 adventure comics set \( vf nm unless noted \) 130 00 100 00 296 , 304 , 312 , 313 , 319 \( f vf \) 2 animal man set 46 00 30 00 animal man 35 38 , 41 animal man reprint 1 wonder woman 267 \( intro animal man \) 3 avengers set 21 00 9 00 avengers 263 , 272 , 300 , 306 , 324 , 329 avengers annual 15 , 18 , 19 4 fish police 22 50 9 00 fish police 3 7 , 9 5 green arrow 35 50 15 00 green arrow 1 9 , 12 , 47 51 6 infinity gauntlet 17 00 9 00 infinity gauntlet 1 3 7 legion super heroes 8 00 5 00 legion super heroes 294 legion super heroes \( 1989 \) 1 , 21 l e g n 29 , 30 8 lone wolf cub 22 00 15 00 lone wolf cub 5 10 , 18 , 19 , 21 23 9 omega men 23 00 15 00 omega men 3 , 10 omega men annual 1 , 2 10 21 00 10 00 1 12 11 ragman 9 00 5 00 ragman 1 5 12 retief 16 25 9 00 retief volume 1 \( mad dog \) 1 6 retief volume 2 \( adventure \) 1 retief c 13 silver blade 24 00 9 00 silver blade 1 12 16 slash 10 50 5 00 slash 1 6 17 sleepwalker 16 25 10 00 sleepwalker 1 , 4 13 18 star trek 30 00 20 00 star trek \( marvel \) 3 \( vg \) , 6 \( f \) , 10 \( vf \) star trek next generation \( mini \) 1 star trek next generation \( series \) 1 , 2 19 strange adventures \( vf nm unless noted \) 260 00 200 00 strange adventures 91 , 124 , 125 , 128 , 140 , 144 , 146 \( f vf \) , 147 \( g \) , 148 \( g \) , 150 , 152 , 166 , 169 , 171 , 174 , 205 \( f vf \) 20 superman 18 40 10 00 superman 2 , 4 , 7 , 53 superman annual 1 3 superman earth superman man steel 1 21 9 50 5 00 1 6 22 trouble girls 20 00 9 00 apache dick 1 3 trouble girls \( eternity \) 5 , 11 14 trouble girls \( \) 2 , 4 23 v vendetta 8 00 5 00 v vendetta 6 , 7 , 9 , 10 24 video jack 12 00 5 00 video jack 1 6 25 warlock infinity watch 19 00 10 00 warlock infinity watch 2 9 26 warriors 6 50 5 00 warriors 1 3 27 x terminators 7 25 5 00 x terminators 1 4 guarantee comic grading satisfaction satisfied grade 've assigned book , send back refund money minus shipping costs thousands comics , looking something particular , please let know might able help reserve right refuse offer geoffrey r mason jrm elm circa ufl edu department psychology mason webb psych ufl edu university florida prothan maple circa ufl edu
mike diack mike staff tc umn edu subject electronic components etc x xxdate thu , 22 apr 93 15 19 34 gmt nntp posting host dialup slip 1 95 gw umn edu organization persian cat carpet co x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d7 lines 19 bunch things many chips type new pull price desc n 3 50 16 bit serial converter smt like p 12 00 ti dsp chip p 12 00 make mac \? \? \? \? n 12 00 piggyback emulator z8 family p 12 00 nec 's eprom version dsp chip p 25 00 gotta really want 'em ! n 30 00 hitachi 256 64 bitmapped display lots others including , , , stuff includes cipher tape drives 10 00 data device programmer 60 00 dont go ! apple laserwriter 550 00 beauty 8k page mac 800k int drives 40 00 cheers mike
peter todd chan pc1o andrew cmu edu subject reduced sony cd players 4 sale organization fifth yr senior , electrical computer engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 22 nntp posting host po5 andrew cmu edu item sony es condition mint age 1 year old price 300 item sony cdp 770 condition excellent age 2 5 years old price 250 everything comes original packaging manuals items played audiophile system excellent shape interested , need additional information , please e mail \( pc1o andrew cmu edu \) call home thanks , pete \( 412 \) 687 p yes , sale
peter todd chan pc1o andrew cmu edu subject klipsch forte 2 4 sale organization fifth yr senior , electrical computer engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 16 nntp posting host po2 andrew cmu edu item klipsch forte 2 speakers condition mint age 6 months old price 1000 pair \( retail 1400 pair \) speakers perfect condition used audiophile system floor standing come original literature also still warranty interested questions , please feel free e mail \( pc1o andrew cmu edu \) call home thanks , jon \( 412 \) 882 6425
cbnewse cb att com \( robert \) subject pc games sale \( jordan flight , \) organization keywords jordan flight , test drive iii lines 13 pc games sale games original package original docs jordan flight 30 h test drive 3 15 h obo contact bob 708 979 ihlpb att com
dlneal apgea army mil \( dennis l neal dlneal \) subject looking teacher miami organization edgewood lines 16 nntp posting host cbda9 apgea army mil sounds little odd sold amiga hand scanner elementary school teacher south florida \( miami , think \) recently found still scanner manual original shipment included software manual , disks , packaging , etc basically , since lost name address person sold would like get person sees , please send email dlneal cbda9 apgea army mil thanx , sorry taking net space dennis
rdb1 cbnewsj cb att com \( ronald j deblock jr \) subject 1990 mazda 626 high miles low price organization distribution usa lines 32 1990 mazda 626 dx 6000 best offer nada blue book mileage 6900 e mail call ron \( 908 \) 805 \( work \) \( 908 \) 454 \( home \) 92 , 000 miles , highway \( used commute 160 miles day \) 5 speed air conditioning fm cassette stereo split fold rear seat 2 2 liter , 12 valve , fuel injected engine roomy interior , back seats , big trunk well maintained oil filter every 3 , 000 4 , 000 , maintanence scheduled except timing belt still looks new slip went 5 , 000 miles without changing oil tires 20 , 000 miles , lots life left \( probably 30 , 000 40 , 000 \) front brake job 84 , 000 , back brakes still good engine trans drive train perfect condition everything works , nothing needs replacing , next tune scheduled 120 , 000 body good left tail light cracked \( i'm trying find used one dealer wants 172 ! \) , two long scratches ding hood \( vandalism \? \) , bunch stone chips front hood official mazda touch paint included deal car extremely reliable , even better toyota corolla replaced besides tires , brakes maintanence items , parts replaced headlight bulbs selling wife refuses drive car without automatic trans wants station wagon sun roof , etc , etc ron deblock rdb1 att com \( 's number 1 rdb1 , letter l \) bell labs somerset , nj usa
ravel udel edu \( fred masterson \) subject wanted beach rental , nc nntp posting host ravel udel edu organization university delaware distribution usa lines 9 seeking north carolina beach rental desire house two families \( 4 adults , 3 kids \) one week late june early july fred masterson ravel udel edu psychology department fred masterson mvs udel edu university delaware bitnet newark , de usa \( 302 831 \)
kohlhepp cae wisc edu \( robert kohlhepp \) subject sweet macintosh nu bus card forsale organization u wisconsin madison college engineering keywords video , nubus , monitor lines 23 recently purchased pb170 use rasterops great card traded iici , forgot forgetfulness si gain great 8 bit video supports 640x480 \( apple 13 14 \) \( apple portrait \) 800x600 \( silly dos monitor resolution \) 1024x768 \( 60hz 75hz \) 1152x870 \( apple 21 \) hardware pan zoom supports virtual desktops size 2 newspaper pages includes standard apple monitor cable card bnc , choose asking 250 \( 's still advertised macworld 499 \) completely negotiable get monitor sell pair accept offers software powerbook accessory trades make offer rj kohlhepp novell systems staff kohlhepp cae wisc edu computer aided engineering
kari sage cc purdue edu \( kari \) subject new \( young \) seagate hard drive organization purdue university computing center distribution misc forsale , misc forsale computers , purdue forsale lines 7 greetings netters , seagate ide drive forsale bought yesterday able come across going buy , need sell one guarantee work still transferable warranty believe used boot drive , server \( source \) drive want money back 180 thanks lot offers appreciated dave 317 495 kari sage cc purdue edu
cs berkeley edu \( joseph \) subject mac software sale organization university california , berkeley lines 8 distribution usa nntp posting host cs berkeley edu summary claris filemaker pro database manager sale claris filemaker pro database manager sale still package 240 best offer call \( 415 \) 824 , ask larry respond account
cory berkeley edu \( ray \) subject sale laptop pc , bernoulli drive , scanner , desktop pc summary various pc items sale keywords laptop , portable , scanner , desktop , bernoulli nntp posting host cory berkeley edu organization university california , berkeley distribution usa lines 38 posting friend please respond account ! ! ! interested following , ask rob \( 510 \) 521 laptop pc 1200 386sx 20mhz cpu 4 mb ram 120 mb hard drive vga graphics \( 32 greyscale \) lcd external vga port 3 5 high density floppy drive removable 101 key keyboard external keyboard port 2 serial , 1 parallel 1 expansion ports expansion unit available , 2 full size card slots bernoulli drive 400 dual 20 mb disk drives 20 mb cartridges \( comes 4 disks \) external unit scanner 50 logitech scanman desktop pc 1000 386dx 20mhz cpu 4 mb ram 80 mb hard drive 387 math co processor super vga graphics 101 key keyboard mouse 3 5 high density floppy drive 5 25 high density floppy drive 2 serial , 1 parallel ports
arthur noguerola vos stratus com subject stereo gear sale organization stratus computer inc , marlboro lines 15 nntp posting host m21 eng stratus com cambridge audio integrated amp 60w stereo solid state , w box list 600 want 340 cambridge audio tuner 8 presets list 350 want 200 cambridge audio preamp list 500 want 290 speakers legends time list 3k want 950 big , corner loaded play volumes little power arthur noguerola vos stratus com
tlaloc sw stratus com \( michael \) subject sale 1990 pontiac grand prix se organization stratus computer , software engineering lines 48 distribution usa nntp posting host tlaloc sw stratus com sale 1990 pontiac grand prix se 2 door coupe , white , white rims , gray interior miles \( mostly highway \) , 3 1 litre v6 multi port fuel injected engine , 5 speed manual transmission one owner options include c , rear , power steering , power brakes , power windows , power locks , power mirrors , cruise control , power glass moonroof sunshade , power seat \( driver 's \) , power seat comfort lumbar headrest \( front seats \) , trunk pass \( skis \) fm cassette \( 6 speakers \) , electronic monitor service system graphic compass , stereo controls duplicated steering wheel , remote keyless entry , others asking 11 , 500 car looks rides like rolled dealers lot garaged pampered gets average 27 5 mpg highway , sometimes better city around 19 23 mpg , depending driven selling baby coming soon need 4 door family car consider trade partial trade ford taurus , mercury sable , 4 door pontiac grand similar american car live boston , area contact mike home \( 508 \) 881 , work \( 508 \) 490 , tlaloc sw stratus com
cs utexas edu \( jeffrey bob berthiaume \) subject 850 mb scsi 800 organization cs dept , university texas austin lines 7 nntp posting host earth cs utexas edu keywords scsi , 850 mb friend mine would like sell 850 mb scsi drive 800 h full height drive , used one half years anyone interested , please e mail thank jeffrey berthiaume cs utexas edu
organization penn state university scott wilson psuvm psu edu subject wanted books lines 16 n't net access , \( reply , 'll get message boss looking two books group papa john john phillips california dreaming \( told wrote , n't remember \) 'd prefer hardcover , paperback willing sell , e mail , 'll pass along thank scott wilson
yuanchie aludra usc edu \( roger hsu \) subject hp laserjet iii sale organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 7 distribution usa nntp posting host aludra usc edu hi , hp laserjet iii sale 's printed less 1500 pages according self test report asking 1000 interested , please e mail thanks !
steve titan tsd arlut utexas edu \( steve glicker \) subject 2 5v 200a power supplies f 150 00 shipping nntp posting host rooster organization applied research labs , university texas austin distribution misc lines 13 two lh research 1 power supplies \( series \) , 5v , 200a \( currently wired \) control lines sense , , pwr fail , high lo margin , current monitor work ! \( list price lh research 824 00 f qty 1 9 \) asking 150 shipping steve
bbn com \( juan g \) subject furniture sale organization bolt beranek newman \( bbn \) lines 28 distribution world nntp posting host bbn com keywords furniture , sale posted friend brand new condition \( less 2 years old \) full size bed mattress , box spring , frame 135 white night table 2 drawer \( \) 60 white dresser 6 drawer plus mirror \( \) x 32 height 170 white 35 entertainment center natural wood color 55 coffee table glass top base \( \) 135 two white floor lamps 15 one table 8 four chairs 5 interested call lourdes \( 617 \) 277 6 10pm \( 617 \) 492 5pm
keith radio nl nuwc navy mil subject dec aa pc keyboard sale x received usenet pa dec com id fri , 23 apr 93 09 42 48 0700 x received inet gw 1 pa dec com id fri , 23 apr 93 09 42 43 0700 x misc forsale usenet lines 22 dec aa pc keyboard sale automatically senses machine type switches xt modes exact key layout dec 's , , etc , dec names keys well pc names standard xt cable included great use terminal emulator keys correct place \( e gold , , etc \) perfect condition , good feel 130 shipping \( dec price around 300 \) send email questions thanks , keith keith radio nl nuwc navy mil
po cwru edu \( christopher \) subject gun 4 sale organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 21 reply po cwru edu \( christopher \) nntp posting host thor ins cwru edu 68 special semi auto rifle 120 round feeder 18 inch barrel composite 14 inch barrel composite 6 inch barrel composite co2 tank silencer 1200 rounds paint plus whatever else box 375 best offer , take gallant , intrepid audacious soldier , put table together get \? sum fears winston churchill
robert monster apd saic com \( robert w ii \) subject arcade video games sale northern virginia organization saic reston , va distribution usa lines 14 sale northern arcade video games asteroids 200 omega race 300 upright video games excellent condition \( \) \( robert w ii \( \) email robert monster apd saic com \) 1005 street work \( 703 \) 318 \) herndon , va \( \) home \( 703 \) 709 \( \) \(
cbnewsj cb att com \( r rashid \) subject sale 760 meg esdi drive , 2 meg dram organization distribution usa lines 19 sale 1 seagate esdi drive 760 meg 500 without controller friend tested controller says works 2 meg 70ns dram 3 48 please call \( 908 \) 219 email thanks ,
pchang ic sunysb edu \( pong chang \) subject sale c 128 system 95 organization state university new york stony brook lines 19 distribution world nntp posting host ic sunysb edu commodore 128 1571 disk drive 2 joysticks 1 mouse lotsa software , games apps rapid fire joystick adapter necessary cables year old 95 obo c ommon pchang ic sunysb edu ense state university new york stony brook e ngineer
cs ulowell edu \( \) subject wanted album organization umass lowell computer science lines 10 looking copy first world wrestling federation album record format pay 10 good condition record original album jacket inserts album looking picture bunch recording studio front back good guy bad guy making faces songs include thousand dances something like please email cs ulowell edu account appears header
weber edu \( clarke whitehead \) subject borland c 3 1 w app forsale news software vax vms vnews 1 41 organization weber state university lines 22 article 1993apr22 ryn dec com , shapiro sofbas enet dec com \( steve shapiro \) writes recently converted microsoft visual c longer want borland c 3 1 w application frameworks product version 6 months old manuals , disks \( 5 25 \) , etc licensed transfer license purchaser accepted terms borland license agreement list price product 750 seen advertised low 500 accept best offer 375 \( plus shipping described \) 1 2 list price , plus , i'm tossing 2 books listed \( 70 value \) 'll sell mine 200 b never used , 've decided n't time get c clarke w whitehead cc weber edu
peng poet ucsd edu \( peng li \) subject color zenith tv sale keywords tv , sale lines 17 color zenith tv sale remote control , 60 interested , please call 455 e mail peng ece ucsd edu must sell apr 30 thank attention
sterling com \( steve hitch \) subject digital voice processor sale organization sterling software distribution usa lines 29 x md4 signature hi 1 sale 300 00 shipping 've pleasure midi controlled \( keyboard 's \) digital voice processor voice \? pitch shift \( change notes sing \) add singing \( 5 parts one time \) change voice synthesizer 's voice leave say alone works well computerized sounding singer , robot voice thought , yes voices cop , old lead ins , yes i'm little red faced say tried specifically input , takes \( 3 prong mic \) 1 4 cables output , combination original input , choice mix original signal effect \( effect desired \) preset setups , edit save preferences couple light scratches , look bad , works flawlessly even n't use music , 's good hours fun studio manual included never got around getting rack ears , gotten studio use , 's beaten steve hitch oo oo oo opinions nobody would want oooo oo oo take responsibility anyway eventually hang , i'm happy oo oo ooo ooo internet sterling com ooo ooo uucp uunet ! sparky !
lmsc5 lmsc lockheed com subject rock roll cheap organization lockheed missiles space company , inc lines 9 stack records lp 33 early mid groups like beatles , cream , woodstock \( triple album \) etc etc would like get rid would willing sell one whatever resonable offer still original wrapper price tag would like get around 5 call make offer lot could list 'd typing forever call \( 408 \) 296 4444
abekas com \( bill batty \) subject anybody remember weeks back organization abekas video systems inc , redwood city , california lines 11 post originating russia advertising large quantities red mercury sale stirred bit controversy time , morning , npr relates news corruption scandal involving russian defense minister \( among others \) , selling defense items , among \( strangely enough \) , red mercury n't suppose \? \? \? \? \? bill batty abekas video systems inc net abekas ! pyramid com
pochanay cae wisc edu \( adisak pochanayon \) subject printer sale organization college engineering , univ wisconsin madison lines 41 sale 24 pin printer alps allegra 24 asking price 150 shipped prepaid \( c orders pay c shipping \) features straight paper path \( wo n't jam \) paper saving tear capability \( need waste sheet get current printout \) programmable preferences \( n't even need computer \) letter quality output epson emulation built card slot additional memory font upgrades printer ribbons easily found \( three four sources alps ribbons every computer shopper \) fast 180 cps output printer even used last two years \( three years old \) laser printer work use instead originally 399 'll even throw two ribbons \( may need simple tho \) adisak pochanayon university avenue apartment j madison , wi \( 608 \) 238 cut jeez ! ! ! never fails , get tub 's rub lamp ! genie pochanay cae wisc edu eddie \( adisak \) pochanayon check software 's releases amiga entertainment cut
tatsuya math byu edu \( tatsuya kawasaki \) subject wanted fax machine organization brigham young university lines 4 nntp posting host math byu edu sub says
cbnewsf cb att com \( \) subject 4sale , bally 's jack membership keywords gold membership , negotiable price organization distribution usa lines 6 two jack gold sale owners asking 600 membership please contact srini \( 908 \) 855 details thanks
matthew alchemy tn cornell edu \( matthew \) subject computer stuff sale organization alchemy international lines 16 nntp posting host alchemy tn cornell edu hp 4 pen plotter 150 130 meg scsi tape drive 150 sony 40 meg scsi disk drive \( sticks \) 50 dead maxtor 338 meg esdi drive 100 dead miniscribe 20 meg scsi drive 10 scsi st 412 interface board 20 daughter boards tape drives \? qic 02 qic 36 \? 20 twist terms \( vt100 terms head twists 80x25 \) 150 14 analog rgb color monitor \( 15 7 khz works nice amiga 's \) 100 spool 90 feet 50 conductor ribbon cable 75 prices best offer prices include ups shipping items working except stated dead matthew
mikefran wam umd edu \( michael francis \) subject 1981 volkswagon scirocco sale nntp posting host rac3 wam umd edu organization university maryland , college park distribution csc , um , dc , local lines 35 mikefran wed apr 21 11 08 28 edt 1993 article 56 csc general newsgroups dc forsale , dc general , um general , csc general path wam umd edu ! mikefran mikefran wam umd edu \( michael francis \) subject car sale message id 1993apr21 wam umd edu keywords 1981 volkswagon scirocco sender usenet wam umd edu \( usenet news system \) nntp posting host rac3 wam umd edu organization workstations maryland , university maryland , college park distribution csc , um , dc date wed , 21 apr 1993 14 27 29 gmt 1981 volkswagon scirocco gold exterior interior 5 speed transmission fm stereo cassette sunroof engine good condition new tires needs 300 work front left control arm damage caused runs well asking 800 00 obo email mikefran wam umd edu
rwf2 ns1 cc lehigh edu \( robert william fusi \) subject 88 toyota camry super deluxe 9 9k organization lehigh university lines 27 article netcom com , davidk netcom com \( david \) write 88 toyota camry top line vehicle blue book 10 , 500 asking 9 , 900 73 k miles auto transmission everything ! owned meticulous mechanic call \( 408 \) 425 ask bob posted friend 88888 1991 toyota camry deluxe sale 70k miles , power everything , grey , 3 years newer 10k highway miles excellent condition rob fusi rwf2 lehigh edu new jersey 609 397 2147 ask bob fusi
cnsvax uwec edu subject cd \( one \) organization university wisconsin eau claire lines 11 jap import one cd single contains one bell tolls \( live \) \( live \) one \( demo \) make offer , andy
tekig5 pen tek com \( steven harvey \) subject house sale owner keywords house , home , sale , owner lines 58 house sale owner selling price 89 , 900 owner steve joyce harvey phone \( 206 \) 254 address ne 148 ct , vancouver , washington legal lot 14 , bush gardens 3 , recorded volume g , page 636 records clark county builder triangle land , built 1975 leader us mortgage co \( \) loan balance 36 , 000 , 10 lot size 101 ft deep x 92 ft wide square footage improved living area 1 , 266 sq ft double garage area 500 sq ft taxes 1992 real estate taxes 826 26 utilities water sewer city vancouver electric clark county recycle garbage vancouver insulation clark county completed 9 28 93 homes schools school district access shopping near 205 vancouver mall home discription 3 bedroom , 2 bath ranch new roof , new paint , new mini blinds , living room ceiling , corner wood stove insert kitchen , new sink , new drop range refrigerator ceiling fans living room three bedrooms well lit large double garage new steel insulated door , work bench , shelves space washer dryer yard discription nicely fenced yard lots trees , garden , 9 ft x 10 ft storage shed , concrete patio security lighting trees include apple , pear , cherry , walnut
subject vouchers sale must sell koutd hiramb hiram edu \( douglas kou \) organization hiram college nntp posting host hiramb hiram edu lines 59 items sale 3d camera takes good picture , never used came wide angle flesh , carring case , film , instruction video four lens created 3d effect regular 35mm film jewelry came package additional gift vacation voucher voucher good two rt airfare users get special hotel rate 27 per person per night meals , ground transfer , hotel tax included las vegas , reno , orlando voucher provides one rt airfare , hotel accomodation 3 days 2 nights meals , ground transfer , hotel tax included voucher good 3 locations , ca n't travel 3 places cancun , mexico voucher provides one rt airfare , hotel accomodation 3 days 2 nights meals ground transfer , hotel tax included usual asking 500 best offer paid 697 whole package late get refund would sell 500 whole package details could provided request wish sell whole package looking vacation vouchers , n't care sell camera higher price interested camera , could treat vacation vouchers gift might receive letter mail box says selected part least one five awards trust , would get exactly package one award given away n't bother even call back , really interested , could get cheaper price could receive package within week \( waited three months get first final packages \) also , would ask credit card number pay interest credit card company spend could get cheaper price interested , please reply soon posible really wish get make offer , confortable offer , would send package u p next day morning details could given wish please contact koutd hirama hiram edu douglas kou hiram college e mail address koutd hirama hiram edu
demers cs ucsd edu \( david demers \) subject us robotics dual standard modem 4 sale keywords modem , dual standard organization cse dept , uc san diego lines 12 nntp posting host ucsd edu article 1993apr23 samba oit unc edu , sean donovan launchpad unc edu \( sean donovan \) writes us robotics external dual standard , latest roms still warranty v 32 v 32 bis v 42bis 5 hst compatible well b 450 sells well 700 mail order sells 570 \( southern california \) almost everywhere dave demers demers cs ucsd edu computer science engineering 0114 demers cs ucsd bitnet uc san diego ! ucsd ! cs ! demers la jolla , ca 92093 0114 \( 619 \) 534 0688 , 8187 , fax \( 619 \) 534 7029
nosubdomain nodomain \( grace yeh \) subject car sale '91 vw corrado organization bellcore , livingston , nj lines 30 i'm posting friend , e mail questions cc bellcore com however , best way get questions answered call phone number listed sale 1991 volkswagon corrado 2 2 coupe low mileage approx 28 , 000 miles 5 speed manual 7 speaker factory stereo system new weather 205 sun roof ac red speed activated extra set tires equipped factory winter package heated seats , mirrors alpine security system 2 remotes records documentation , service pampered car , mint condition must sacrifice 11 , 000 best offer call \( 908 \) 821
leonardo com \( stephanie e leonardo \) subject vhs video sale organization utexas mail news gateway lines 3 nntp posting host cs utexas edu movie sold mcdonald 's 7 99 \? \? \( new \) \?
sdf lonestar org \( stephen jones \) subject fs drum acc , analog synth , computer things cheap ! organization super dimension fortress public access unix dallas , tx lines 82 hitachi cd player \( needs cd spin motor \) 30 shipped joysticks ibm apple joystick three fire buttons apple joy stick \( c e \) kraft track ball make offers vision items two working consoles w working controllers great shape one roller ball controller two super action one joystick games sa baseball sa rocky sa football vic 20 c64 rf make offer raid fort knox omega race early 80 's acoustic guitar top back , sides neck adjustable bridge , plays nice small hole side jack \( pickup one time \) 175 shipping yamaha cs 5 analog synthesizer three octave keyboard vco single oscillator range 2' tone sources saw tooth , square , noise external sound modulated cut , resonance , mod , envelope generator depth pitch bend slider , cv , trigger , external tone source keyboard perfect working order colored black white 150 shipping drum stuff north heavy duty hi hat stand 45 older stand definately working shape could use little clean comes clutch , etc pearl bass drum pedal felt 20 cymbal stand 15 \( needs work cymbal stem \) 20 ride cymbal 55 main line older ride cymbal ludwig snare stand 10 okay snare stand like though \) shipping extra please email questions anything , please email stephen jones sdf system administrator sdf lonestar org cs e
vax5 cit cornell edu subject ibm ps 2 33mhz adaptec 1640 scsi distribution misc organization cornell university lines 11 would like sell ps 2 model 50 , kingston sx ! 33mhz processor , cyrix coprocessor \( cpu fpu landmark scores 46 107 8mhz \) , 8 meg \( 9 meg total \) ast advantage 2 board \( 0 wait state \) , original 20 meg hard drive , fast adaptec 1640 scsi controller card \( worth around 300 new \) software control external internal scsi device i'm including dos 6 0 \( 5 0 \) , keyboard vga drive straight vga \( cheap \) monitor please email directly inquiries offers , return phone via email
cis ohio state edu \( golden richard \) subject toshiba notebook sale organization ohio state university dept computer info science lines 47 nntp posting host swimming cis ohio state edu sale toshiba notebook computer specs \( 64k cache \) 25mhz , 8mb ram , 80 meg ide hard drive , 1 floppy , 5 9 lbs w battery installed , greyscale vga display , ps 2 mouse port , external keyboard port , 1 pcmcia port , external expansion port , external vga port , 1 serial , 1 parallel ports , socket numeric coprocessor \( user \) memory expandable voted editor 's choice pc magazine expansion station available toshiba also makes one economical power conservation options user definable hard drive period , screen dimming , auto cpu speed \( 12 5 , 6 mhz \) definable interval , etc comments purchased locally micro center columbus , oh 7 months ago original packaging , receipts , manuals included warranty keyboard machine best 've seen prefer keyboard desktop units typically get 3 4 hours battery life battery 2 hours full charge machine quite speedy run os 2 2 currently leave operating system installed unless prefer ms dos 5 0 \( included \) 'll include padded carrying case , also made toshiba price terms 1900 \( semi firm \) , certified check outside columbus , pay cod shipping please respond queries cis ohio state call 614 261 golden richard iii osu dept computer information sciences cis ohio state edu \( 614 \) 292
quads uchicago edu \( dave \) subject tapes sale summary classic rock tapes , cheap reply midway uchicago edu distribution na organization university chicago lines 32 following cassette tapes sale 3 00 2 50 multiple orders , shipping included trades arranged cases somewhat worn , cracks , tapes good condition sound fine e mail posting account thanks 's greatest hits turner overdrive best \( far \) van doors best doors cars door door cars greatest hits phil collins face value jacket required tears fears songs big chair thanks , dave david nothing measurable matters university chicago good god damn midway uchicago edu e e cummings
rwf2 ns1 cc lehigh edu \( robert william fusi \) subject '91 toyota camry 9800 organization lehigh university lines 21 1991 toyota camry deluxe model 5 sp power windows power door locks power steering power brakes fm cassette 70k highway miles excellent condition 9800 \( 914 \) 335 day \( 5pm \) \( 609 \) 397 2147 \( \) ask bob fusi rob fusi rwf2 lehigh edu e mail call info
jwg0 ns1 cc lehigh edu \( john walter \) subject vhs movies must sell moving organization lehigh university lines 17 article 1993apr22 1 hiramb hiram edu , koutd hiramb hiram edu \( kou \) writes vhs movies sold moving 6 weeks douglas kou much room 6 videotapes take moving van \? take \? mba looking job hiring \? e mail jwg0 lehigh edu take walk wild side lehigh university \) bethlehem , pa usa \( j h n g e w r w k
coates bigwpi wpi edu \( jeffery david coates \) subject test organization worcester polytechnic institute lines 4 nntp posting host bigwpi wpi edu test
ychen hubcap clemson edu \( eric chen \) subject transformer wanted dead vga monitor organization clemson university , clemson sc lines 8 14 vga monitor id dead due transformer 's failure part would like get rid , pls let know thanks eric
coates bigwpi wpi edu \( jeffery david coates \) subject sony amplifier crossover sale organization worcester polytechnic institute lines 40 nntp posting host bigwpi wpi edu sale ! ! ! ! 1 \) sony car stereo amplifier \( model xm \) rated power , 4 ohms 20 20 , 0 5 thd 2 ohm stable short circuit overload protected great little amplifier picked demo model last spring , never got chance install 's tested , works great perfect amplifier adding 4 speaker power system , powering whatever mounted board , complete rs 15 amp noise filter , connections made barrier strips easy screw type contacts lists new 129 , asking 75 b complete 2 \) sony electronic crossover \( model 500 \) freq response 5 100 , 000 hz \( 0 , 3 db \) n ratio 105 db \( \) high pass x flat , 80 , 120 , 180 hz \( octave \) low pas x 50 , 80 , 120 , 180 hz \( octave \) 1 2 din size dash installation many cars ! , l exceptional unit found extremely useful back days car put stereo two sets rca type inputs \( f r \) , three sets outputs \( f r sub \) output seperate level control variable low boost control \( 10 db 40 hz \) extending low bass , seperate high low pass crossover points make great unit anybody 's interested building sub satellite type system used orig box papers 130 b units work flawlessly , excellent shape \( ie scratches , etc \) anyone interested , please respond coates wpi wpi edu 'll happy answer questions might oh yeah want 'll sell amp th x 175 thanks jeff
ils nwu edu \( jason adam \) subject wanted sharp organization institute learning sciences lines 13 nntp posting host ils nwu edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 im looking sharp scientific calculator model discontinued , know dealer may around , please reply jason word mean jason adam anything \? ils nwu edu northwestern university , vampire slayer institute learning sciences
kam chung cheung andrew cmu edu subject moving sale organization masters student , industrial administration , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 11 nntp posting host po2 andrew cmu edu moving sale large table 25 four drawer dresser 29 five shelf book case 19 chair 19 15 speed bicycle \( brand \) 69 microwave oven 59 call 421
khoh usc edu \( oliver muoto \) subject sale hayes 2400 external modem \( personal modem \) mac organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 6 nntp posting host aludra usc edu sale hayes 2400 personal modem \( external \) macintosh really nice small think plugs directly power plug two long cables , phone macintosh get back interested offer thanks advance khoh usc edu
khoh usc edu \( oliver muoto \) subject sale casio boss sf 8000 personal business organizer organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 14 nntp posting host aludra usc edu casio b sf 8000 organizer \( 64k \) hardware software nice personal organizer excellent shape allows store phone numbers addresses \( searches , etc \) , business cards info , schedules , also provides home work time calculator also password protection alarms nice 6 line lcd screen mini qwerty keyboard comes lets interface computer \( mac ibm \) transmit receive data \( forms \) software macintosh runs nifty tool people go interested , please email offer thanks necessary instruction manuals cables thanks khoh usc edu
khoh usc edu \( oliver muoto \) subject sale 030 direct slot adapter card mac iisi organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 8 nntp posting host aludra usc edu sale 030 direct slot adapter card mac iisi \( mac coprocessor well \) looking let know , email offer well interested thanks khoh usc edu
khoh usc edu \( oliver muoto \) subject sale 4 x 1meg simms \( 100ns \) macintosh organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 6 nntp posting host aludra usc edu sale 4 \( four \) 1 meg simms \( 100ns \) macintosh want upgrade mac iisi , iici , whatever email offer thanks khoh usc edu
khoh usc edu \( oliver muoto \) subject sale silverlining 5 42 hard disk management software organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 11 nntp posting host aludra usc edu last two copies silverlining 5 42 la cie sale disk management software lets test hard drive , install test drivers , partition disks \( supports aux , , etc \) nice piece software around house interested please email offers first good offer also gets disk organization software free khoh usc edu
khoh usc edu \( oliver muoto \) subject sale 2 x 1meg \( 70ns \) simms macintosh organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 5 nntp posting host aludra usc edu sale 2 \( two \) x 1 meg \( 70ns \) simms macintosh aka interested , please email offer khoh usc edu
khoh usc edu \( oliver muoto \) subject sale practical peripherals 1200 external modem organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 6 nntp posting host aludra usc edu nice little , really compact , cream colored , 1200 external modem good mac ibm throw cable extra 5 interested email offer khoh usc edu
midway ecn uoknor edu \( rodney morrison \) subject amiga 3000 14 4 hst sale cheap distribution usa organization engineering computer network , university oklahoma , norman , ok , usa lines 19 nntp posting host midway ecn uoknor edu sale amiga 3000 16 6 megs ram 1950 monitor extra external hard drive much games graphics productivity etc usr hst 14 4 modem \( dual standard \) amiga software 950 usr hst modem 250 price 1100 midway ecn uoknor edu \( 405 \) 447
khoh usc edu subject sale cdrom \( uswest \) phone directory organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 11 nntp posting host aludra usc edu sale teh uswest cdrom phone directory names , phone number , address , business residence information regions covered us west states includes oregon , washington , colorado , new mexico , arizona , idaho , wyoming , montana , utah , minnesota , nebraska , iowa , north dakota , south dakota two cdrom disks , one june 1992 , oct 1992 interested , make offer , thanks khoh usc edu
jth bach udel edu \( jay thomas hayes \) subject genesis sega cd games forsale nntp posting host bach udel edu organization university delaware distribution usa lines 27 sega genesis sega cd forsale recently moved friends genesis cd player i'm selling whole setup 'd like sell everything together package come sega genesis sega cd 2 joysticks 1 pad sewer shark \( cd \) sol \( cd \) sega classics \( cd \) \( 5 games 1 cd \) streets rage revenge columns golden axe sherlock holmes \( cd \) cd g music graphics sampler john madden \( cart \) i'm selling 325 plus 'll split shipping n't want sell things seperately please reply jth bach udel edu thanks , jay
rei com \( jonathan \) subject 386sx sale organization recognition international , inc lines 15 sale 386sx , 8 meg ram ! , 120 meg maxtor ide hard disk , ami bios stb powergraph svga , 1mb \( 1024x768x256 \) loop 14 color svga monitor \( 28 dot pitch \) 1 2 1 44 diskette drives desktop case , turbo reset switches , hard drive led 101 keyboard , 2 serial 1 parallel 1 game port serial , 2 button , fully ms compatible mouse everex 2400 bps external modem mnp5 dos 5 0 , windows 3 1 logitech scanman 32 software , docs , box asking 875 system call \( 214 \) 579 norton si range 10 2
khoh aludra usc edu \( oliver muoto \) subject many business books sale good prices organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 54 distribution world nntp posting host aludra usc edu following books best sellers sale excellent order interested email offer 1 zapp lightning william , jeff cox harmony books 2 beware naked man offers shirt harvey william , morrow co 3 still n't reach harvard mark h bantam books 4 2000 10 new directions 90 's john p william , morrow co 5 phone power george putnam books 6 every supervisor know r , j mcgraw hill 7 new directions advertising stan , tom collins mcgraw hill 8 competition john , jr 9 professional speaking wilder simon schuster 10 managing management time william jr prentice hall 11 getting praised raised recognized solomon prentice hall 12 getting want reach agreement anderson dutton 13 let 's talk quality philip b crosby mcgraw hill 14 frontal attack , divide conquer richard wiley 15 den thieves james b stewart simon schuster 16 20 20 vision stanley davis , bill davidson simon schuster , email please khoh usc edu
ralf iqsc com \( ralf \) subject items sale , less ! ! organization iq software corp lines 24 items sale price listed best offer ! ! ! ! ! ! ! svga monitor 1024x768 non interlaced 14 screen , still warranty ! \( brand new \) 275 00 1200 baud compuadd modem box docs software 15 00 cga monitor cga parallel card 30 00 sco unix v3 2 2 unlimited user os , base extended utilities , uucp 125 00 turbo c turbo c complete reference book 15 00 serial card 1 serial port 10 00 joystick , three button 10 00 ide controller 2 serial , 1 parallel one game port 10 \( 210 \) 545 , ask ralf
jks2x holmes acc virginia edu \( jason k schechner \) subject foot switches guitar organization university virginia lines 17 've got 2 foot switches sale appear designed studio use \( ie 're well built \) 1 diameter , 6' cord 'd like 15 , 'd also like sell , make offer also bought new guitar need sell one others 's kramer passive emg pickups \( 2 single , one double \) pickups sound great quiet 'd like get 250 jason settle , raise family join pta , buy sensible shoes , chevrolet party 'till 're broke drag away 's ok al yankovic
tao balboa eng uci edu \( eric tao \) subject hard drive 40m ide , 90 , 6 months old ! nntp posting host balboa eng uci edu organization university california , irvine lines 5 upgrading hard drive selling 40 drive , run great , without problem , 90 share shipping eric
tao balboa eng uci edu \( eric tao \) subject software sale , ms window 3 1 , ms works , pc tool 7 1 , dos 6 0 nntp posting host balboa eng uci edu organization university california , irvine lines 10 following software sale , prices , ms window 3 1 , gateway , manuals , 20 ms work manuals , 30 pc tools 7 1 manuals , 40 ms dos 6 0 ! 20 softwares almost new eric
jmparkin mtu edu \( jeremy parkinson \) subject wanted calculator organization michigan technological university x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 9 hello , looking calculator anyone one getting rid please let know reply jmparkin mtu edu thanks , jeremy jeremy parkinson aka slimy 'd give right arm jmparkin mtu edu unknown
jmparkin mtu edu \( jeremy parkinson \) subject forsale organization michigan technological university x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 20 hello , parents selling 1978 22 foot excellent condition runs great 198 engine \( actually chevy 305 \) class hard top driver table stove water tank sink sleeping 6 much good around fishing boat interested info write mtu edu call \( 313 \) 681 thanks , jeremy jeremy parkinson aka slimy 'd give right arm jmparkin mtu edu unknown
georgian tigger jvnc net \( ops mgr \) subject 210m scsi hd 3 5 sale summary new drives , unused originator ens tigger jvnc net keywords 210m scsi disk drives forsale nntp posting host tigger jvnc net reply lee polarsun rna rockefeller edu organization jvncnet lines 35 please reply seller 210m formatted scsi hard disk 3 5 rodime \( 3 available \) new drives , unused capacity , formatted mbytes 210 0 number data heads 5 number cylinders 1 , 235 track density , 1700 positioning times track track average full stroke \( max \) rotational speed , rpm 3600 avg rotational latency 8 scsi bus transfer rate 4m sec cache guaranteed works sun , pc , mac , misc workstations internal drives external drive enclosure included price 225 , including cod insured shipping within continental u please email responses lee lee polarsun rna rockefeller edu
antonio oas olivetti com \( antonio \) subject honda accord \( 82 \) sale organization olivetti research california lines 27 distribution world reply antonio oas olivetti com \( antonio \) nntp posting host oas olivetti com keywords honda , sale , 82 honda accord 4 cyl lx hatchback 3d 5 speed '82 126 , 000 miles fm stereo cassette clutch '89 alternator '90 battery '93 '93 rebuilt registration expires feb '94 asking price 2150 00 please call 408 366 3570 \( \) location stevens creek cupertino ca
cbnewsd cb att com \( john n le \) subject sony 8mm camcorder sale organization bell labs , naperville , il usa distribution usa keywords sony 8mm camcorder lines 25 sale sony 8mm camcorder model pro v9 top line years ago autofocus macro capability 6x zoom 5 lux rating 360 , 000 pixel ccd chip , best made 8mm camcorder av input output jacks \( cables included \) rf convertor switcher tv without av input ac adaptor charger 1 5a battery neck trap user 's manual mint condition list price model 1600 , paid 1330 mail order years ago sacrifice 500 best offer reason sale upgrade hi8 model john n le \( 708 \) 713 bell labs , naperville , il usa email uucp ! att ! ihlpe ! internet ihlpe att com
cbnewsd cb att com \( john n le \) subject sony 8mm camcorder sale organization bell labs , naperville , il usa distribution usa keywords sony 8mm camcorder lines 25 sale sony 8mm camcorder model pro v9 top line years ago autofocus macro capability 6x zoom 5 lux rating 360 , 000 pixel ccd chip , best made 8mm camcorder av input output jacks \( cables included \) rf convertor switcher tv without av input ac adaptor charger 1 5a battery neck trap user 's manual , original box , , etc mint condition list price model 1600 , paid 1330 mail order years ago sacrifice 500 best offer reason sale upgrade hi8 model john n le \( 708 \) 713 bell labs , naperville , il usa email uucp ! att ! ihlpe ! internet ihlpe att com
paris cs berkeley edu \( joseph \) subject claris filemaker mac organization university california , berkeley lines 5 distribution usa nntp posting host paris cs berkeley edu claris filemaker pro database manager macintosh , still 150 best offer please call \( 415 \) 824 respond account
unix amherst edu \( james henry \) subject wanted cassette cd nntp posting host amherst edu organization amherst college x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl7 lines 14 good r b group came 1988 called bought cassette single fell love 've tried find lp cd success whatsoever wondering whether anyone netland heard song hit charts called tribute thanks ! jay amherst edu amherst edu
gt7187c prism gatech edu \( thomas oates \) subject sherwood fm stereo reciever sale organization georgia institute technology lines 16 sale sherwood fm stereo reciever 20 memory presets \( think , may 18 \) 25 watts per channel 70 best offer please reply gt7187c prism gatech edu thomas oates atlanta braves gt7187c prism gatech edu 1992 national league champions prodigy ca n't stop chop ! ! ! georgia institute technology
gt7187c prism gatech edu \( thomas oates \) subject ms dos 6 0 sale organization georgia institute technology lines 17 sale ms dos 6 0 upgrade open unregistered 3 5 disks 40 best offer please mail replies gt7187c prism gatech edu thomas oates atlanta braves gt7187c prism gatech edu 1992 national league champions prodigy ca n't stop chop ! ! ! georgia institute technology
gt7187c prism gatech edu \( thomas oates \) subject pc tools 7 1 sale organization georgia institute technology lines 16 sale pc tools version 7 1 original disks manuals included 50 best offer please send replies gt7187c prism gatech edu thomas oates atlanta braves gt7187c prism gatech edu 1992 national league champions prodigy ca n't stop chop ! ! ! georgia institute technology
rrg rtp fibercom com \( rhonda gaines \) subject sale 1990 mazda mx 6 reply rrg fibercom com distribution usa organization fibercom , inc , roanoke , virginia lines 19 nntp posting host rtp 1990 mazda mx 6 5 spd c fm cassette cruise tilt steering white w interior excellent condition 73k miles 7500 best offer rhonda rhonda gaines , systems network administrator internet gaines fibercom com fibercom , inc , p box , uucp ! uunet ! fibercom ! gaines roanoke , va 1966 fax 703 342 phone 703 342 6700 800 423 1183
schmidt tn cornell edu subject photographic stuff sell organization wilson lab , cornell u , ithaca , ny , 14853 lines 55 reply schmidt tn cornell edu nntp posting host tn cornell edu photographic spring cleaning ! following partial list , come soon 2 8 50 lens , plus front cap , case meyer 1 9 50 lens , plus front cap model ii , plus orig case co \( berlin \) extension bellows \( 4x \) , orig box entire package 30 plus shipping pentax universal screw mount cameras 3 5 35 lens , plus caps 1 8 55 lens , orig case 2 8 135 lens , plus caps entire package 25 plus shipping lenses 4 5 150 10 el nikkor 4 0 50 45 4 5 150 75 busch model c , 2 1 4 x 3 1 4 4 5 101 shutter , 85 slr , 2 8 50 , plus case shutter sluggish , 's , thus 25 v , synchro , 3 5 75 , case , orig lens cap fool got oil shutter blades , shutter sluggish 60 olympus n body , oil \( \? \) , appears work fine wise lens 75 printing frame , 35mm , 6 strips 6 , plate glass cover , excellent condition 10 omega developing tank , \( 2 \) 35 mm reels 12 nikkor developing tank , \( 7 \) 120 reels 45 kodak filter set 10 prices exclusive shipping conserve bandwith n't come back petty offers however , consider trades interesting equipment , toward , still digging , enlarger , busch 4 x 5 , nikkor reels tanks , 4 x 5 lenses shutters , 5 x 7 lenses shutters e mail interested , thanks reading
subject 286 mother board 4 sale james chu psuvm psu edu organization penn state university lines 4 c chip set 286 12 mother board c bios 2 meg ram \( 80ns \) reply reasonable offer interested thanks ! \) james
jburgin ralph cs haverford edu \( joshua marc \) subject sale kenwood receiver organization haverford college computer science department lines 10 nntp posting host 130 58 179 176 article venus haverford edu jburgin ralph cs haverford edu \( joshua marc \) writes sale kenwood audio visual surround sound receiver follow note , sold receiver , n't e mail call anymore sorry anyone joshua
gw wmich edu subject pc tools 8 0 organization western michigan university lines 10 pc tools 8 0 original disk manual registration card included disk size 3 5 price 60 shipping martin gw wmich edu
read world std com \( harold read \) subject 877 mb 3 5 scsi disk sale organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 10 new \( opened box , tested drive \) toshiba disk sale 3 5 877 mb formatted 12 ms scsi 2 3 year warranty thought would work , need larger drive system asking 900 00 great opportunity let hear
jrm elm circa ufl edu \( jeff mason \) subject jeff mason 's auction marvel , dc , valiant , image , etc organization univ florida psychology dept lines 114 nntp posting host elm circa ufl edu summary friday april 23 update following comics auction highest bid takes ! title minimum current alpha flight 51 \( jim lee 's first work marvel \) 5 00 aliens 1 \( 1st app aliens comics , 1st prnt , may 1988 \) 20 00 krism sold amazing spider man 136 \( intro new green goblin \) 20 00 amazing spider man 238 \( 1st appearance hobgoblin \) 50 00 archer armstrong 1 \( frank miller smith layton \) 7 50 avengers 263 \( 1st appearance x factor \) 3 50 bloodshot 1 \( chromium cover , bwsmith cover poster \) 5 00 three cyberrad 1 \( cyberrad , prestige silver edition \) 15 00 daredevil 158 \( frank miller art begins \) 35 00 dark horse presents 1 \( 1st app concrete , 1st printing \) 7 50 detective 657 \( azrael appears , intro cypher \) 5 00 detective 658 \( azrael appears \) 4 00 harbinger 10 \( 1st appearance h r corps \) 7 00 b matthey sold h r corps 1 5 00 incredible hulk 324 \( 1st app grey hulk since 1 1962 \) 7 00 incredible hulk 330 \( 1st mcfarlane issue \) 15 00 incredible hulk 331 \( grey hulk series begins \) 11 00 incredible hulk 367 \( 1st dale keown art hulk \) 15 00 incredible hulk 377 \( 1st new hulk , 1st prnt , keown \) 15 00 marvel comics presents 1 \( wolverine , silver surfer \) 7 50 marvel presents \( charleston chew giveaway , sam keith \) 5 00 maxx limited ashcan \( 4000 copies exist , blue cover \) 33 50 brentb sold mr 1 \( signed advance copy , 10 , 000 exist \) 10 00 new mutants 86 \( mcfarlane cover , 1st app cable cameo \) 10 00 new mutants 100 \( 1st app x force \) 5 00 new mutants annual 5 \( 1st liefeld art new mutants \) 10 00 omega men 3 \( 1st appearance lobo \) 7 50 omega men 10 \( 1st full lobo story \) 7 50 power man iron fist 78 \( 3rd appearance sabretooth \) 20 00 power man iron fist 84 \( 4th appearance sabretooth \) 15 00 simpsons comics stories 1 \( polybagged special ed \) 7 50 spectacular spider man 147 \( 1st app new hobgoblin \) 12 50 spider man special \( giveaway , vs venom \) 10 00 star trek next generation 1 \( feb 1988 , dc mini \) 7 50 star trek next generation 1 \( oct 1989 , dc comics \) 7 50 trianglehead 1 \( special limited edition , autographed \) 5 00 web spider man 29 \( hobgoblin , wolverine appear \) 10 00 web spider man 30 \( origin rose , hobgoblin appears \) 7 50 wolverine 10 \( claws , 1st battle sabretooth \) 15 00 wolverine 41 \( sabretooth claims wolverine 's dad \) 5 00 wolverine 42 \( sabretooth proven dad \) 3 50 wolverine 43 \( sabretooth wolverine saga concludes \) 3 00 wolverine 1 \( 1982 mini series , miller art \) 20 00 wonder woman 267 \( return animal man \) 12 50 x force 1 \( signed liefeld , bagged , x force card \) 20 00 x force 1 \( signed liefeld , bagged , shatterstar card \) 10 00 x force 1 \( signed liefeld , bagged , deadpool card \) 10 00 x force 1 \( signed liefeld , bagged , sunspot gideon \) 10 00 comics near mint mint condition , bagged shiny polypropylene bags , backed white acid free boards shipping 1 50 one book , 3 00 one book , free order large enough amount stuff willing haggle thousands thousands comics , please let know 've looking , maybe help titles posted n't list every issue title , tried save space geoffrey r mason jrm elm circa ufl edu department psychology mason webb psych ufl edu university florida prothan maple circa ufl edu
cnsvax uwec edu subject sale addition organization university wisconsin eau claire lines 2 sorry , forgot add jap import andy
rupin dang dartmouth edu \( rupin dang \) subject cameras sale organization dartmouth college , hanover , nh lines 9 following complete camera kits sale minolta three lenses ricoh zoom lens nikon 35 mm autofocus 50 nikkor 50 1 8 mint 60 e mail details
rupin dang dartmouth edu \( rupin dang \) subject nikkor 70 210 af sale 175 organization dartmouth college , hanover , nh lines 3 nikkor 70 210 af immediate sale excellent condition send e mail details
rupin dang dartmouth edu \( rupin dang \) subject slr camera , zoom sale organization dartmouth college , hanover , nh lines 5 great slr camera \( ricoh \) sale nikon fe features , also shutter speeds form 16 seconds excellent condition accessories zoom lens reasonable price send e mail
rupin dang dartmouth edu \( rupin dang \) subject vhs broadcast tapes forsale organization dartmouth college , hanover , nh lines 5 fresh stock vhs broadcast master tapes , album covers , forsale unopened still plastic sell lot 50 \( worth around 75 discount video warehouse \) \( fuji broadcast master \) send e mail
msk su subject aircraft sale leasing reply msk su organization russian tools co , ltd keywords aircraft sale lines 37 firm position either sell lease one 12 air cargo transport aircraft \( complete technical repair 1993 \) terms delivery 1 price aircraft 2 price leasing per month guarantee flight time 60 hours price includes \) price aircraft b \) price insurance aircraft pilots price leasing include \) fuel price b \) price technical service c \) taxes , airport taxes , air expenses , payments \) loading , unloading insurance cargo e \) days payments pilot , food accomodation expenses , transport expenses terms negotiable interested , please contact earliest andrey moscow tel \( 095 \) 305 71 30 fax \( 095 \) 305 72 60 tools ltd co
stein u washington edu \( \) subject one way omaha seattle plane ticket 5 9 female keywords ticket , omaha , nebraska article shelley organization university washington lines 7 nntp posting host stein u washington edu one way omaha seattle ticket name west travel 5 9 must picked omaha airport thereabouts 5 6 continental airlines make offer reply hamp hampshire edu
sol cis udel edu \( bruce \) subject supra modem 2400 scale keywords 2400 baud modem nntp posting host sol cis udel edu organization university texas san antonio lines 7 upgraded supra 9600 fax modem , supra 2400 modem sale 50 h approx 1 3 years old excellent working condition send email rosen ringer cs utsa edu , call 210 691 bruce rosen
br pct rlg stanford edu \( peter c tam \) subject ftp pc tcp ver 2 04 sale cheap lines 12 organization research libraries group , inc lines 12 sale ftp software , inc pc tcp \( networking software dos \) version 2 04 \( \) lan driver 3c503 cards , others get ftp , serial numbers , diskettes , tcp ip telnet ftp ping lpr finger etc 6 copies , cheap 45 00
rtd saigon com \( \) subject co cpu organization systems \( 408 \) 252 1005 cupertino , ca lines 16 hi fellows , still got bunch 386dx 25 intel cpu 25 intel coprocessors buy set 79 5 00 shipping individually 25 42 5 00 47 00 25 42 5 00 47 00 interested , respond call 408 942 fax 408 942 rtd saigon com \( \) systems 1 408 252 1005 silicon valley , ca
rtd saigon com \( \) subject 1x1 80 102 organization systems \( 408 \) 252 1005 cupertino , ca lines 13 hi fellows , 36 pcs 1x1 80 102 5 00 shipping total 107 00 interested , respond call 408 942 fax 408 942 rtd saigon com \( \) systems 1 408 252 1005 silicon valley , ca
rupin dang dartmouth edu \( rupin dang \) subject nikon camera 50 organization dartmouth college , hanover , nh lines 4 nikon af camera 35 2 8 lens camera case package 50 send e mail
rupin dang dartmouth edu \( rupin dang \) subject texas ti 81 calculator organization dartmouth college , hanover , nh lines 4 texas instruments ti 81 excellent scientific calculator best offer
phoenix princeton edu \( amer akhras \) subject cds 4 sale originator news nimaster nntp posting host phoenix princeton edu organization princeton university distribution usa lines 32 please reply following address hani akhras jhuapl edu following discs sale discs postage paid methods silence 8 ppd revenge one true passion 8 ppd voltaire technology western works 1992 8 ppd soul ii soul keep moving \( \) 5 ppd soul ii soul vol ii new decade 8 ppd lee perry hits 8 ppd head music 7 ppd bizzare inc 8 ppd following cassettes sale 2 minimum living box living box 3 cs michael jackson thriller 3 cs olivia newton john physical 3 cs steel pulse greats 3 cs please reply following address hani akhras jhuapl edu
uwaterloo ca \( john ching \) subject wanted tandem bicycle keywords tandem bicycle distribution na organization university waterloo lines 12 looking tandem bicycle , make , model , condition would prefer complete bike , tandem ok , please email one sale p pay shipping anywhere canada u john ching \( waterloo edu \) pattern analysis machine intelligence group department systems design engineering university waterloo , canada
panix com \( gary \) subject genesis games sale \( updated expanded \) organization panix public access unix , nyc distribution na lines 3 selling joe montana football '93 genesis 30 include shipping come first
02106 ravel udel edu \( samuel ross \) subject books sale cheap ! ! ! ! ! distribution usa organization university delaware lines 24 nntp posting host ravel udel edu someone please buy books ! ! ! ! ! asking much ! ! ! ! ! ! make offer probably take ! ! ! ! ! writing good software fortran , graham smith holt handbook kirszner mandell \( copyright 1986 \) 720 page writing guide general chemistry principles modern applications , r petrucci , fourth edition big book ! good condition ! solutions manual chemistry book paperback study guide chemistry book paperback send offers via email 02106 chopin udel edu sam 02106 chopin udel edu
02106 ravel udel edu \( samuel ross \) subject desert storm cards sale ! ! ! distribution usa organization university delaware lines 23 nntp posting host ravel udel edu desert storm cards sale divided two lots take highest bid 4 30 93 drop line bid lot 1 desert storm \( coalition peace , \) cards 38 , 3 , 16 , 28 \( \) , 8 \( \) , 71 , 30 , 34 2 , 69 , 48 , 2 , 79 , 15 , 16 \( \) , 66 , 69 , 17 , 21 , 26 85 , 25 , 17 \( \) , 18 , 6 , 86 , 23 , 49 2nd series \( \) cards 118 , 111 , 92 , 104 , 115 , 160 , 95 , 162 , 31 \( \) , 136 , 110 , 123 147 , 107 , 164 , 108 , 170 lot 2 desert storm \( pro set \) cards 44 , 87 , 120 , 196 , 229 , 19 , 74 , 121 , 153 , 208 , 47 , 100 , 150 , 187 , 13 , 58 , 178 , 217 22 , 94 , 142 , 197 , 227 , 4 , 108 , 174 , 228 , 6 , 89 , 137 , 190 , 205 , 23 , 82 , 128 , 199 , 211 \( \) sticker card sam 02106 chopin udel edu
mtholyoke edu \( g e r n \) subject ! ! cs , math , physics , gre books forsale ! ! distribution na organization mount holyoke college lines 103 nntp posting host mtholyoke edu c books also math physics books books marked new , condition perfect books good condition shipping buyer pays 1 per book list hate prices , email offer title author orig price asking price communication networks 52 25 42 new ! \( \) computer 58 85 42 architecture \( \) 2 nd edition ai design expert 45 80 35 systems \( lugar \) artificial intelligence 46 25 39 new ! \( patrick henry winston \) 2 nd edition operating system concepts \( , peterson , galvin \) 50 39 book c 34 25 20 \( kelley , \) 2 nd edition teach youself c \? \? \? 10 \( \) understanding hard disk management \? \? \? 10 new ! pc \( jonathan \) math calculus \? \? \? 9 \( big , hard cover book \) discrete math application 50 95 40 \( susanna epp \) course linear algebra \? \? \? 20 new ! \( , little \) 's outline series 11 95 6 linear algebra physics foundations physics 58 95 48 new ! \( , \) 3 rd edition also selling gre books brand new \( never used \) arco gre general test \( big , red book \) 19 arco computer science gre 13 please send email interested , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , \( \( mtholyoke edu p box \) \) germain wong \) mhc mtholyoke edu mount holyoke college \( \( \( tel 413 538 south hadley , \)
02106 ravel udel edu \( samuel ross \) subject sams comics sale cheap ! ! ! ! keywords comics , sale nntp posting host ravel udel edu organization university delaware distribution usa lines 363 ok instead holding auction , decided compute prices comic \( many suggestions \) reasonable prices give \( negotiable \) would like purchase comic \( group \) , simply email title issue 's want price issue shown beside comic first come , first served ! ! ! bidding meet price reached email address 02106 chopin udel edu 02106 ravel udel edu 02106 bach udel edu 02106 brahms udel edu haggling price ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! lots comics 1 , 2 , 3 look list ! ! ! ! ! shipping 2 1 3 comics 3 , price determined volume purchase \( may use big heavy box large orders costs mail \) bought comics , thanks ! ! ! comics near mint unless otherwise noted \( books graded mile high comics comic professional collectors , ! \) list reserved means made deal person waiting check arrive reserved comics good sold \( sorry ! \) incredible hulk 156 \( vs another hulk \) 3 195 2 196 2 246 \( vs captain marvel \) 1 248 1 249 1 250 \( double size issue vs silver surfer \) 5 255 \( vs thor \) 1 279 1 300 2 312 2 313 1 316 \( vs bi coastal avengers \) 1 347 1 reserved 348 1 350 \( vs thing \) 2 354 1 358 1 360 1 362 \( vs werewolf night \) 2 364 1 365 1 366 1 reserved 379 \( 1 copy \) 5 punisher 50 1 57 2 punisher war journal 29 \( ghost rider \) 2 30 \( ghost rider \) 2 punisher armory 1 4 2 2 original ghost rider rides \( reprint \) 1 1 ghost rider \( old series \) 37 3 reserved 43 \( vs johnny blaze \) 3 reserved 77 \( 2 copies , origin gr dream \) 4 ghost rider \( new series \) 15 \( 1st print , green glow dark cover , 1 copy \) 5 15 \( 2nd print , gold cover w glow cover \) 3 web spiderman 56 \( 2 copies \) 2 60 3 69 \( vs hulk , 1 copy left ! ! ! \) 2 70 \( , 1 copy left ! ! ! \) 2 71 1 72 1 78 1 deadly foes spiderman 1 \( 2 copies \) 2 2 2 3 2 amazing spiderman vs dr octopus \( special issue \) 2 amazing spiderman 350 \( vs dr doom , 1 copy left ! ! ! \) 2 spiderman \( 1990 \) 1 \( silver , bagged \) 4 6 3 7 3 8 \( 2 copies \) 2 9 \( w wolverine , 1 copy left ! ! ! \) 2 10 2 11 1 13 5 16 1 enemy ace special 1 2 new warriors 1 \( gold cover \) 2 8 4 superman man steel 1 2 superman \( new \) 53 \( 2 copies \) 1 55 1 56 1 adventures superman 479 1 annual 3 1 superman annual 3 \( armegedon 2001 tie \) 1 action comics 666 1 avengers west coast 69 \( vs us agent \) 1 batman 465 \( robin returns \) 2 466 1 467 1 annual 15 \( armegedon 2001 tie \) 3 captain america 230 \( vs hulk \) 2 257 \( vs hulk \) 1 armegedon 2001 1 4 2 2 1 2 infinity gauntlet 1 6 4 3 5 3 double dragon 1 1 deathlok \( series \) 2 1 transformers 80 \( last issue \) 2 wonder man 1 1 2 1 flaming carrot 25 \( w ninja turtles \) 2 comet 1 1 legend shield 1 1 justice society america 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 official movie mag turtles ii movie \( sealed w comic \) 5 robin 1 \( 1 copies w poster \) 3 1 \( 3rd print \) 1 5 \( 6 copies \) 1 guardians galaxy 1 6 2 3 3 2 4 2 5 2 6 2 7 2 8 2 9 \( 2 copies \) 3 10 2 11 2 12 1 13 3 14 3 15 1 16 1 17 1 18 \( 2 copies \) 2 superman vs amazing spiderman \( oversized issue 70 's \) 7 reserved darkhawk 1 \( 3 copies \) 8 2 \( 2 copies \) 6 3 5 4 4 5 4 6 3 7 2 8 2 9 3 10 1 thor 246 1 428 1 429 \( vs juggernaut \) 2 430 \( w ghost rider \) 1 431 1 432 \( thor vs loki , 2 copies \) 3 433 \( new thor \) 2 annual 16 1 13 1 23 1 25 2 26 1 alpha flight 29 1 51 6 53 6 94 \( vs 4 \) 1 new mutants 22 2 100 \( last issue , 1st look x force , 1st print , 2 copies \) 5 100 \( 2nd print , gold cover \) 4 flash \( new \) 43 1 48 1 49 1 50 2 51 1 annual 4 1 uncanny x men 191 3 215 2 255 \( 2 copies \) 2 258 6 275 \( 1 copy left 1st print \) 6 275 \( gold 2nd print \) 3 276 3 277 3 278 2 279 2 280 2 281 3 282 4 283 6 defenders 52 \( hulk vs sub mariner \) 2 fantastic four 347 4 348 2 349 \( 3 copies \) 2 wolverine 11 3 reserved 20 2 41 \( w cable , 2 copies \) 6 42 4 43 3 silver surfer \( 1987 \) 1 6 2 3 3 3 4 3 5 2 6 2 8 2 22 2 24 2 32 2 49 2 50 \( foil cover , 1 copy left ! ! \) 6 51 2 52 2 53 1 54 1 55 1 56 1 58 2 59 2 avengers 326 3 328 \( origin rage \) 3 x factor 40 6 67 3 68 6 71 3 73 1 green lantern \( 1990 \) 3 2 9 \( 2 copies \) 1 10 1 11 1 12 1 toxic avenger 1 \( 3 copies \) 1 2 1 sleepwalker 1 \( 3 copies \) 2 3 1 7 1 kool aid man 1 \( sealed white bag , 2 copies \) 2 x force 1 \( bagged w cable card \) 4 1 \( bagged w shatterstar card \) 3 2 2 3 1 4 1 nfl 1 1 dr strange 31 1 annual 2 \( 2nd print , armegedon 2001 tie \) 1 hawk dove annual 2 \( armegedon 2001 tie \) 1 justice league america annual 5 \( armegedon 2001 tie \) 1 send comments 02106 chopin udel edu thanks sam \( ex comic book collector \) college electrical engineering , university delaware
organization central michigan university cmuvm csv cmich edu subject 4 sale calculator lines 16 sharp brand pocket computer model pc 1246 dimensions 3 5 x 5 x 0 5 inches 15 digit lcd display 53 rubber keys \( w alphabet \) built basic prog language 11 pin socketed interface optional cassette drive \( n't \) slide reversable plastic cover sorry , owners manual program two still memory asking 15 shipping \( 2 u \) thanks pete cmuvm cmich edu
judy cbnewsd cb att com \( judith \) subject 1945 card board saw puzzle sale organization distribution usa keywords puzzle lines 20 sale 1945 king feature specialty company 200 fifth avenue new york , ny cardboard puzzle box pieces worn use missing pieces size 13 3 4 inches 21 1 2 inches 60 puzzle pieces puzzle , , kids , dog puppies picnic alexander trying get fishing line tree 10 00 plus shipping charges reached email call judy \( 219 \) 838
athena mit edu \( kenneth j \) subject cd 's , games , books sale organization massachusetts institute technology lines 22 nntp posting host 008 5 mit edu following cd 's sale 5 plus shipping body count \( without cop killer \) yo ! mtv \( volume 1 \) skid row \( 1st album \) bryan adams waking neighbours temple dog c c music factory gonna make sweat ibm pc games eye beholder 2 25 pools darkness 18 jet fighter 2 18 books ancient egypt , social history \( retail 26 , sell 8 \) encyclopedia ancient egypt \( hardcover , 283 pages \) 18 encyclopedia physics \( hardcover , 1371 pages , 1990 \) 25 shipping also books games yes , haggle ! e mail offers athena mit edu
oplinger meson crd ge com \( brian oplinger \) subject lynx games sale trade nntp posting host meson crd ge com organization ge corp research development , schenectady , ny distribution na lines 15 've got following lynx games sale trade make offer batman returns pinball jam gates brian oplinger ra crd ge com include standard disclaimer
oplinger meson crd ge com \( brian oplinger \) subject tg 16 games sale trade nntp posting host meson crd ge com organization ge corp research development , schenectady , ny distribution na lines 22 following games sale trade make offer hu cards r type alien crush tricky kick ninja spirit assault cd lords rising sun sherlock holmes brian oplinger ra crd ge com include standard disclaimer
oplinger meson crd ge com \( brian oplinger \) subject game gear games sale trade nntp posting host meson crd ge com organization ge corp research development , schenectady , ny distribution na lines 14 following games sale trade make offer crystal warriors junction revenge psychic world castle illusion \( mouse \) brian oplinger ra crd ge com include standard disclaimer
oplinger meson crd ge com \( brian oplinger \) subject genesis games sale trade nntp posting host meson crd ge com organization ge corp research development , schenectady , ny distribution na lines 10 following games sale trade make offer trouble shooter time sandiego \? brian oplinger ra crd ge com include standard disclaimer
oplinger meson crd ge com \( brian oplinger \) subject lds forsale nntp posting host meson crd ge com organization ge corp research development , schenectady , ny distribution na lines 21 following lds sale 20 1st 15 additional , postage \( 3rd class \) paid project ko \( japanese english \) dominion act \( japanese english \) dominion act ii \( japanese english \) far crowd \( lbx \) west side story \( lbx \) ben \( p \) dirty dozen \( p \) star trek v \( p \) vol 1 tom jerry classics bugs bunny classics brian oplinger ra crd ge com include standard disclaimer
oplinger meson crd ge com \( brian oplinger \) subject marx brother \( vhs \) forsale nntp posting host meson crd ge com organization ge corp research development , schenectady , ny distribution na lines 21 following marx brothers tapes forsale would like sell batch possible \( except \) new , stored copies bought mgm ua day races circus big store mca duck soup animal crackers brian oplinger ra crd ge com include standard disclaimer
tdb uu se \( david jonsson \) subject 210m scsi hd 3 5 sale reply tdb uu se organization dept scientific computing , uppsala univ x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 19 ops mgr \( georgian tigger jvnc net \) wrote please reply seller 210m formatted scsi hard disk 3 5 rodime \( 3 available \) warning bad experience model know several others also run difficulties drives work limited period time disk report medium error dont ask details , disk stone dead david david jonsson voice fax 46 18 24 51 52 p box 353 postal giro 499 40 54 7 751 06 uppsala internet e mail tdb uu se sweden
ll12 quads uchicago edu \( li liu \) subject florida vacation package sale reply ll12 midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 27 hello , package right thing planning short vacation central florida 169 , get four nights first class hotels two adults three children two nights daytona beach pay additional state tax 3 day \( required law \) great coupon book major tourist , restaurants , etc fully transferable expires 9 16 93 extended whole year 20 need make reservation 45 days advance otherwise availability hotel price negotiable reason selling missed deadline using last interested , email ll12 midway uchicago edu
groucho columbia edu \( bernard lin \) subject sale 88 toyota supra distribution usa organization columbia graduate school business , cu lines 17 nntp posting host groucho columbia edu 1988 toyota supra , fully loaded automatic color leather interior alpine stereo system cd changer alpine car alarm 90 , 000 miles , great condition , one owner leave country june asking 9 , 000 b please call \( 310 \) 212 ask cary bernard lin research assistant computing information services columbia business school
jyow desire wright edu subject camera stylus , pocket camera organization wright state university lines 9 olympus stylus , 35mm pocket camera smallest class includes time date stamp , battery , carrying case red eye reduction , timer fully automatic rated 2 consumer reports 115 obo jason yow human factors psychology program wright state university , dayton , oh e mail jyow desire wright edu
csb1 engr uark edu \( chris bray \) subject classic 80 's rock tapes sale ! ! ! x received usenet pa dec com id sat , 24 apr 93 11 44 35 0700 x received inet gw 2 pa dec com id sat , 24 apr 93 11 43 38 0700 x received engr engr uark edu \( 1 28 1 2 \) id sat , 24 apr 93 13 41 cdt x mailer mail user 's shell \( 7 2 4 2 2 92 \) x alt rock n roll , rec music marketplace usenet , misc forsale usenet lines 62 hi still tapes left 2 50 \( postage paid , 1st class \) multiple orders appreciated , necessary package deals welcome thanks chris bray lewis , huey sports contains heart rock roll , heart soul , want new drug , walking thin line , , ! ! ! nervous night contains danced , day day , zombies , nervous night poison look cat dragged 1st tape contains cry tough , wont forget , talk dirty , ! hall oates big bam boom contains touch , possession obsession , ! cellar contains wanted man , round round , ! quiet riot condition critical contains outfield play deep contains say n't , love , love world , ! plant , robert shaken n' stirred contains little little , plus journey raised radio contains girl cant help , suzanne , good , ill alright without , cant night go forever duran duran arena contains something know \? , hungry like wolf , new , wild boys , planet earth , ! best contains big hits plus inxs kick contains , new sensation , devil inside , need tonight , never tear us apart , , ! great tape csb1 engr uark edu chris bray uafhp uark edu university arkansas , think someone decency tell free make someone run potato hand , pretending like 's throwing , call hospitality
cnsvax uwec edu subject wanted pay per view paris organization university wisconsin eau claire lines 3 trying obtain hi fi copy guns n' roses pay per view last summer paris anyone copy would like sell , could make copy , please e mail thanks
stanford edu \( richard van \) subject mountain view house sale organization dso , stanford university lines 16 three bedrooms , one updated bath professionally front yard w utilities attached one car garage recently painted inside convenient commute location schools elementary , jr high , mountain view high 209 , 900 information contact beverly morgan \( 408 \) 773
cleveland freenet edu \( frank \) subject tools wanted organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 7 nntp posting host slc4 ins cwru edu i'm looking buy tools kind know sale please leave e mail 'll get back promptly frank
feng qian launchpad unc edu \( feng qian \) subject os 2 2 1 unleashed nntp posting host lambada oit unc edu organization university north carolina extended bulletin board service lines 10 copy book , new , read 20 plus h dc pickup \( book 1100 pages quite heavy \) feng opinions expressed necessarily university north carolina chapel hill , campus office information technology , experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu 152 2 22 80
alee ecs umass edu subject probes plugs oscilloscope function generator lines 15 greetings ! 2 sets plugs oscilloscope function hooks also 2 sets probes x1 x10 also ref switch probes plugs excellent conditions interested , please make offer respond replies wed al
alee ecs umass edu subject probes plugs oscilloscope function generator lines 9 greetings ! sorry typos clipper hooks al plugs supposed black red mini
eos ncsu edu \( susan hodapp \) subject sale scooter originator 106ps eos ncsu edu reply eos ncsu edu \( susan hodapp \) organization north carolina state university , project eos lines 24 sale red honda scooter \( \) need c license max speed 63 mph gas mileage 74 mpg max wt 250 lbs reading 3000 miles factory 3 years low mileage original owner paperwork available thorough tune ups quarterly year 1986 body scratch , garaged covered always cover 2 helmets included good student light commuter fun \) 1300 best offer e mail call evenings susan hodapp \( 919 \) 833 live north carolina \( raleigh \) moving indiana may 15th , could drop somewhere inbetween
eric b magnus acs ohio state edu subject c language books sale organization ohio state university x mailer elm version 2 3 lines 99 price list price c memory management techniques 22 00 32 95 len dorfman marc j \( includes disk \) 1993 borland c handbook 18 00 29 95 second edition \( covers version 3 0 \) chris h pappas william h murray , iii 1992 converting c turbo c 18 00 29 95 len dorfman \( includes disk \) 1992 art c 22 00 39 95 herbert schildt \( includes disk \) 1991 using turbo c 12 00 24 95 herbert schildt 1990 c complete reference 18 00 28 95 second edition herbert schildt 1990 using c 12 00 24 95 \( version 2 0 \) bruce 1989 advanced c 9 00 21 95 herbert schildt second edition 1988 high performance interactive graphics 8 00 22 95 lee adams \( examples done basic \) 1987 high performance cad graphics c 10 00 26 95 lee adams 1986 pctools complete reference 15 00 29 95 second edition \( versions 7 0 7 1 \) hy 1992 inside track 20 00 39 95 dos pc performance john dvorak nick 1992 advanced quick c 2nd edition 9 00 22 95 \( version 2 \) werner 1989 wordperfect complete reference 12 00 24 95 series 5 edition karen l 1988 using ventura publisher 8 00 24 95 que 1988 \( book covers first version , \) \( might good newer versions \) using os 2 8 00 19 95 kris 1988 \( book version 1 x , obviously \) using generic levels 1 3 10 00 22 95 ray c freeman iii 1989 pay shipping \( usa \) magnus acs ohio state edu compuserve com csi compuserve com
rob msc cornell edu subject used cds sale originator rob snoopy msc cornell edu organization , \? lines 10 nova mob last days 8 ppd overwhelming overwhelming 8 ppd teenage 9 ppd tin machine tin machine ii 9 ppd various asthma v comp 9 50 ppd rob rob msc cornell edu
rob msc cornell edu subject comics sale \( marvel , dc , \) originator rob snoopy msc cornell edu organization completely without lines 199 small comic collection sale issues nm unless otherwise noted prices flexible large purchases buyer pays shipping nm means comic ordered bagged backing upon arrival , never read opened numbers represent number multiple copies 60 graded price fantasy \( silver surfer , second series \) 8 nm \( original series \) 1 f 2 5 f fury \( second series \) 3 , 6 human fly 1 vf human torch 1 vf indiana jones 2 nm 19 21 legion super heroes 293 vf machine man 8 , 9 g \( 2001 space , origin \) 1 f 6 f 1 vf 19 , 20 , 46 , 47 new gods 1 f 19 f outsiders 3 , 4 nm ragman 5 f rom 1 vf 4 vf secret origins \( blue beetle \) 2 secret wars ii 2 5 vf 6 \( 2 \) nm 8 9 \( 2 \) shade , changing man \( original series \) 1 vg 2 , 5 vg thing 26 30 vf thor 361 vf mighty thor 13 \( dbl iss \) 75 graded price ambush bug stocking 1 avengers 259 262 263 264 267 batman outsiders 29 , 30 beauty beast \( 4 issues \) 1 2 nm cloak dagger 1 vf nm 2 5 daredevil 192 \( 5 \) , 193 nm 221 225 nm \( adams \) 7 \( lopez , 4 issue limited series \) 1 doctor strange 74 fantastic four 281 284 vf 286 vf 287 290 vf \( 4 iss \) 1 \( 2 \) nm hercules \( 4 iss \) 1 \( 2 \) , 2 , 3 \( 2 \) 4 vf \( date stamp \) iron man 98 , 102 f 126 , 127 vf 197 199 200 nm \( dbl iss \) 202 203 \( 2 \) 204 , 205 laser eraser \( eclipse \) 1 \( 2 \) marvel fanfare \( epic \) 7 marvel universe 2 nm 4 , 5 nm \( epic , 12 issues \) 6 , 7 \( 4 iss \) 1 \( 2 \) 2 , 3 supreme \( 12 iss \) 1 vf 2 , 3 , 4 , 6 , 7 vision scarlet witch \( 4 iss \) 1 \( 4 \) nm vision scarlet witch \( 12 iss \) 1 nm 2 5 x men alpha flight \( 2 iss \) 1 85 graded price alien legion \( epic , 12 issues \) 10 alpha flight 1 nm 2 3 , 10 19 , 22 24 25 26 \( 2 \) 27 , 28 29 30 31 \( 2 \) 32 crisis infinite earths 5 6 7 8 9 10 \( 2 \) , 11 12 \( 2 \) daredevil \( miller written drawn \) 187 , 188 , 189 \( 2 \) nm \( warp , third printing \) 1 nm hulk \( byrne \) 314 \( 2 \) 318 marc spector moon knight 1 3 \( 4 \) 4 \( 3 \) 5 6 \( 2 \) new mutants 22 30 31 37 , 40 , 54 , 55 x factor 2 \( 2 \) x men 138 163 vf 167 168 \( 2 \) 196 , 199 serious inquiries alpha flight 17 x men crossover 33 wolverine appearance daredevil 226 nm miller plot 227 nm miller script starts 228 nm miller teenage mutant ninja turtles 1 \( 3 \) nm \( second printing , comic size \) 4 \( 7 \) nm \( first printing , magazine size \) 5 \( 4 \) nm \( first printing , comic size \) 1 \( 9 \) nm \( original printing \) 1 \( 3 \) nm \( original printing \) raphael 1 nm \( original printing \) x factor 1 \( 5 \) nm x men new teen titans \( marvel c crossover , w \) 1 nm rob msc cornell edu
truman fenton andrew cmu edu subject sale bulk shirts ! ! organization freshman , electrical computer engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 30 nntp posting host po5 andrew cmu edu company , thus commercial sale purchased 256 shirts last fall fund fell n't time sell shirts 175 shirts left willing sell 5 25 piece \( dollar discount would paid supplier shirts , even bulk \) \( 's 918 75 175 shirts \) shirts jim morris shirts 100 cotton 4 colors \( clean neatly folded box happen damaged refund money damaged shirt replace , option \) could sell least 8 15 piece \( higher number nicer shirts \) raise money school event organization realize big investment , could pay big would willing sell shirts lots 50 5 50 shirt pay shipping , prefer local buyers give bargaining power please help time sell shirts need money taking big loss selling cheap give jim morris' phone number prices prices negotiable truman please email andrew cmu edu tell clubs area deal 're gone , 're gone \( cause business \)
pledge netcom com \( alan \) subject mac 512ke sale keywords mac 512ke organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 12 sale mac 512ke mouse keyboard functions fine serial hard drive plugs floppy port gives 20mb hd make offers sig construction send suggestions pledge netcom com
jburgin ralph cs haverford edu \( joshua marc \) subject sale graphic equalizer organization haverford college computer science department lines 19 nntp posting host 130 58 179 176 sale \( still \) audio source model eq eleven 10 band stereo octave equalizer analyzer display digital readout , controls spectrum great boost kinds music signals fm broadcasts , tapes , cds makes even weakest recording sound great purchased 1 year ago 189 asking 75 00 includes original packaging , manuals , cables warranty card email jburgin ralph cs haverford edu phone 215 645
jongsma esseye si com \( ken jongsma \) subject external modem reply jongsma si com organization smiths industries distribution usa lines 12 practical peripherals \( external \) modem sale 's used less 1 year lifetime warranty 've never problem connecting site , something ca n't say third tier modems original box manuals 150 \( firm \) includes shipping anywhere continental us ken ken jongsma smiths industries jongsma si com grand rapids , michigan 1041 compuserve com
jrm elm circa ufl edu \( jeff mason \) subject marvel x comics sale organization univ florida psychology dept lines 122 nntp posting host elm circa ufl edu comics want sell x comic mutant related prices least 30 overstreet price nm condition , bagged backed n't like prices , make offer ! title price alpha flight 13 \( wolverine appears \) 8 40 avengers 263 \( 1st appearance x factor \) 3 50 daredevil 196 \( wolverine appears \) 8 40 fantastic four 347 \( art adams art , wolverine \) 3 50 fantastic four 348 \( wolverine ghost rider appear \) 2 10 fantastic four 349 \( ghost rider appear \) 2 10 havok wolverine meltdown 1 \( epic comics \) 2 80 marvel comics presents 1 \( wolverine , silver surfer \) 7 00 2 \( wolverine , master kungfu \) 3 50 3 \( wolverine , master kungfu \) 3 50 4 \( wolverine , master kungfu \) 3 50 5 \( wolverine , daredevil \) 3 50 6 \( wolverine , hulk \) 2 80 7 \( wolverine , \) 2 80 10 \( wolverine , man thing \) 2 80 11 \( man thing , ant man \) 1 40 12 \( man thing , colossus \) 1 40 13 \( black panther , \) 1 40 14 \( black panther , nomad \) 1 40 17 \( ron lim art , black panther \) 1 40 18 \( ron lim art , black panther \) 1 40 19 \( rob liefeld art , cyclops \) 1 40 20 \( ron lim art , black panther \) 1 40 21 \( ron lim art , black panther \) 1 40 22 \( ron lim art , black panther \) 1 40 25 \( nth man , havok , panther \) 1 40 26 \( black panther , havok , hulk \) 1 40 27 \( black panther , havok \) 1 40 28 \( black panther , havok \) 1 40 29 \( black panther , havok \) 1 40 30 \( black panther , havok \) 1 40 31 \( erik larsen , excalibur \) 1 40 52 \( rob liefeld , wolverine \) 2 10 60 \( wolverine , hulk \) 4 20 62 \( jackson , deathlok \) 5 60 63 \( poison , thor , scarlet witch \) 2 80 64 \( mark texiera , ghost rider \) 3 15 65 \( mark texiera , ghost rider \) 3 15 66 \( mark texiera , ghost rider \) 3 15 67 \( mark texiera , ghost rider \) 3 15 72 \( b w smith , weapon x \) 5 60 73 \( b w smith , weapon x \) 2 80 75 \( b w smith , weapon x \) 2 10 76 \( b w smith , weapon x \) 2 10 77 \( b w smith , weapon x , \) 2 10 80 \( b w smith , weapon x \) 2 10 81 \( b w smith , weapon x \) 1 75 82 \( b w smith , weapon x \) 1 75 83 \( b w smith , weapon x \) 1 75 84 \( b w smith , weapon x \) 1 75 85 \( 1st keith art jae lee \) 4 20 97 \( ghost rider , cable \) 1 40 104 \( wolverine , ghost rider \) 1 05 106 \( wolverine , ghost rider \) 1 05 marvel fanfare 4 \( x men ka team , deathlok app \) 4 20 marvel team 100 \( 1st karma miller , byrne x men \) 5 60 117 \( wolverine cover story \) 8 40 new mutants 18 \( intro new warlock , magus \) 6 30 88 \( rob liefeld , 2nd cable \) 14 00 89 \( rob liefeld , 3rd cable \) 10 50 90 \( rob liefeld , sabretooth appears \) 8 40 91 \( rob liefeld , sabretooth appears \) 8 40 93 \( rob liefeld , wolverine vs cable \) 10 50 94 \( rob liefeld , wolverine vs cable \) 10 50 98 \( 1st app deadpool , gideon , domino \) 8 40 100 \( 1st app x force \) 6 30 annual 4 \( evolutionary war \) 2 10 annual 5 \( 1st liefeld art new mutants \) 12 60 annual 6 1 40 annual 7 \( 2nd app x force \) 8 40 summer special 1 \( art adams art \) 2 10 power pack 27 \( wolverine sabretooth appear \) 7 00 spider man 16 \( mcfarlane liefeld art , x force appears \) 3 00 thor 374 \( mutant massacre , x factor , sabretooth app \) 5 60 wolverine 10 \( claws , 1st battle sabretooth \) 16 80 41 \( sabretooth claims wolverine 's dad \) 7 00 42 \( sabretooth proven dad \) 3 50 43 \( sabretooth wolverine saga concludes \) 2 80 wolverine 1 \( 1982 mini series , miller art \) 21 00 x factor 47 1 05 51 \( sabretooth appears \) 3 50 52 \( sabretooth appears \) 3 50 53 \( sabretooth appears \) 3 50 57 1 00 62 \( x agenda , jim lee cover \) 4 20 63 \( whilce portacio art begins \) 4 20 69 \( whilce portacio art \) 1 40 70 \( last old team issue \) 1 40 annual 6 \( new warriors , x force appear \) 1 75 x force 1 \( signed liefeld , bagged , x force card \) 25 00 1 \( signed liefeld , bagged , shatterstar card \) 15 00 1 \( signed liefeld , bagged , deadpool card \) 15 00 1 \( signed liefeld , bagged , sunspot gideon \) 15 00 1 \( bagged , cable card \) 4 20 x men 226 \( fall mutants \) 5 60 239 \( inferno \) 2 80 245 \( rob liefeld art \) 2 10 267 \( jim lee art series begins \) 8 40 276 \( jim lee art \) 1 05 277 \( last jim lee art \) 1 05 280 1 05 281 \( new x men team , 1st printing \) 4 20 comics near mint mint condition , bagged shiny polypropylene bags , backed white acid free boards shipping 1 50 one book , 3 00 one book , free order large enough amount stuff willing haggle thousands thousands comics , please let know 've looking , maybe help titles posted n't list every issue title , tried save space geoffrey r mason jrm elm circa ufl edu department psychology mason webb psych ufl edu university florida prothan maple circa ufl edu
organization university illinois chicago , academic computer center noel b lorenzana u38134 uicvm uic edu subject self defense pepper spray sale lines 6 small cans self defense spray sale i'm asking 12 one 's size pen marker works pretty good \( hear \) thanks , noel
hans meyer hmmeyer silver ucs indiana edu subject pioneer play cd player sale organization indiana university lines 10 pioneer pd multi play cd player 5 disc magazine full function remote standard features including computer allocated program editing time fade editing excellent shape 1 year old asking 175 hans meyer
hans meyer hmmeyer silver ucs indiana edu subject pioneer double cassette deck organization indiana university lines 10 pioneer ct double cassette deck auto ble tuning cd deck recording music search , high speed , standard features less one year old excellent condition 200 firm hans meyer
hans meyer hmmeyer silver ucs indiana edu subject kenwood speakers organization indiana university lines 7 2 kenwood ks 150 watt floor standing speakers sale less one year old brand new shape 185 hans meyer
hmmeyer silver ucs indiana edu \( hans meyer \) subject pioneer audio video receiver organization indiana university lines 16 pioneer 501 audio video receiver dolby pro logic surround , logic studio simulated surround playback video signal selector \( function \) two way vcr copying monitoring acoustic memory function custom memory function sleep timer multi room remote jack av remote control unit less one year old excellent shape 300 firm hans meyer
rupin dang dartmouth edu \( rupin dang \) subject powerbook forsale organization dartmouth college , hanover , nh lines 10 posting brother , please reply account forward messages powerbook excellent shape , five months old , purchased abroad \( n't seen \) details , send e mail asking price best offer conditions immediate sale ,
reddy ulysses att com \( p reddy \) subject 82 toyota tercel good condition make offer summary cheap car sale keywords toyota tercel 1982 car distribution usa organization none lines 33 hi '82 blue toyota corolla tercel sale reason great little car new celica car specifications 1982 toyota corolla tercel 5 speed miles 2 door blue air conditioning heat fm stereo well taken care maintained clean new battery , timing belt , fan belt inspection sticker valid 02 94 tough car , generally go 200k miles make offer e mail reddy ulysses att com phone \( 908 \) 582 \( work \) \( 201 \) 635 \( home \) reddy include std disclaimer h p reddy bell laboratories
wvnvms wvnet edu subject wanted airline certificate voucher ! ! ! organization west virginia network educational telecomputing lines 12 willing pay reasonable amount airline certificate voucher , looking 1 \) certificate voucher valid round trip ticket \( coast coast anywhere us \) 2 \) name please reply e mail phone \( 304 \) 292
hans meyer hmmeyer silver ucs indiana edu subject panasonic kx 24 pin printer organization indiana university lines 20 panasonic kx 24 pin dot matrix printer 320 cps 1 127 dot diameter 16 character lcd super quiet mode draft , letter quality , super letter quality fonts rear , bottom , front , top paper feeding \( friction tractor \) color compatible \( needs optional color kit \) includes windows 3 1 panasonic printer drivers disk bought jan '93 used little still original ribbon cartridge nice printer brand new dont use often enough need money 'll take 200 hans meyer
jks2x holmes acc virginia edu \( jason k schechner \) subject aircraft sale leasing keywords aircraft sale organization university virginia lines 43 article msk su msk su writes firm position either sell lease one 12 air cargo transport aircraft \( complete technical repair 1993 \) terms delivery 1 price aircraft 2 price leasing per month guarantee flight time 60 hours price includes \) price aircraft b \) price insurance aircraft pilots price leasing include \) fuel price b \) price technical service c \) taxes , airport taxes , air expenses , payments \) loading , unloading insurance cargo e \) days payments pilot , food accomodation expenses , transport expenses terms negotiable interested , please contact earliest andrey moscow tel \( 095 \) 305 71 30 fax \( 095 \) 305 72 60 tools ltd co calling bill gates , calling bill gates jason settle , raise family join pta , buy sensible shoes , chevrolet party 'till 're broke drag away 's ok al yankovic
engr latech edu \( james l \) subject 486dx 33 cpu chip sale , 250 organization louisiana tech university lines 37 distribution world reply engr latech edu nntp posting host pulsar engr latech edu article dcss mcmaster ca , cs3sd3ae maccs mcmaster ca \( holly ks \) writes article utdallas edu goyal utdallas edu \( mohit k goyal \) writes 486dx 33 cpu chip sale , 250 shipping like pay 250 chip , get immediately otherwise , take highest offer days thanks please refer , selling 150 cpu correct 150 may high amd started selling 486 clones ! 're dreaming guy selling 150 ripping chips gone 'll see price , amd clone still clone , want genuine article pay one guy decides sell ridiculously low price everyone else kevin bud , get life real world still play atari paddles \? geez man , open eyes today quoted price local dealer friend mine , could get motherboard \( 386dx 33 64k cache , 1 meg base ram \) 285 ! ! friendly advice , go favorite book store \( book 's \) pick computer shoppers guide think aa good price wait till see goodies sell james aka master
camelot bradley edu \( michael \) subject hawaii tickets forsale ! ! ! ! nntp posting host camelot bradley edu organization bradley university lines 15 girlfriend travelling across us summer , wo n't using tickets return hawaii please buy tickets one way , leaving peoria , il may 17 connects main route minneapolis st paul , goes honolulu 'll honolulu 2 42 pm , flying via northwest airlines offers considered , please make sure serious offers tickets hawaii n't cheap , 're aiming make two people happy summer camelot bradley edu
br pct rlg stanford edu \( peter c tam \) subject ftp pc tcp ver 2 04 sale cheap lines 23 organization research libraries group , inc lines 23 article br pct 68 rlg stanford edu br pct rlg stanford edu \( peter c tam \) writes br pct rlg stanford edu \( peter c tam \) subject ftp pc tcp ver 2 04 sale cheap date sat , 24 apr 1993 01 09 18 gmt sale ftp software , inc pc tcp \( networking software dos \) version 2 04 \( \) lan driver 3c503 cards , others get ftp , serial numbers , diskettes , tcp ip telnet ftp ping lpr finger etc 6 copies , cheap 45 00 correction check diskettes , contains pc tcp kernel , applications good people needs run lan applications uses ftp pc tcp kernel calls , mot extra telnet ftp etc applications
malcolm uucp \( malcolm crosby \) subject forsale scsi controller reply ! malcolm oh us distribution na organization personal uucp system lines 8 forsale one scsi controller a2000 make offer e malcolm crosby internet kent edu e mail ! malcolm oh us \( e mail please \)
ychen hubcap clemson edu \( eric chen \) subject wanted 10 polaroid palette 72 10 manual organization clemson university , clemson sc lines 24 newsgroups misc wanted , misc forsale , misc forsale computers , subject wanted manual polaroid palette 72 10 10 distribution world organization clemson university , clemson sc need polaroid palette model 72 10 \( similar model \) manual willing pay 10 , plus shipping charge via usps 3rd class n't need original one , photo manual fine manual , please help thanks advance eric \( 803 \) newsgroups misc forsale , misc wanted , misc forsale computers subject wanted 10 polaroid palette 72 10 manual summary distribution world organization clemson university , clemson sc keywords
mzhao magnus acs ohio state edu \( min zhao \) subject cheap harddisks faithful pc xt nntp posting host top magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university distribution na lines 16 original ibm 10mb harddisks sale actually seagate 's st412 , mfm , full height , ibm logo black face plate disk checked formatted dos 6 0 doubled 20mb dblspace stacker desire original ibm foam fitted anti static bags sure ever used , drive sent good working order 30 plus shipping cost , \( 5 \) , one old ibm xt pcs , ! 's cheaper floppy drive !
tsa cellar org \( silent assassin \) subject sale monochrome monitor , 8088 motherboard , disk drive organization cellar bbs public access system lines 20 sale , trade combination 286 16 motherboard 2400 v 42bis monochrome monitor , pretty generic , ibm 8088 motherboard , 7 mhz , built monochrome color support , built serial parallel ports stick robot , use make cheap terminal , whatever 5 25 internal low density disk drive 1200 baud external modem , practical peripherals make offer suggest trade whatever libertarian , atheist , semi anarchal techno rat define tsa cellar org
leland stanford edu \( ryan \) subject cd 's sale organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa distribution usa lines 1 paid 19 95 cd , 're fool got ripped
ersys edmonton ab ca \( dave \) subject wanted sega glasses organization edmonton remote systems 2 , edmonton , ab , canada lines 14 badly need pair sega 3d glasses cheap vr setup set want part , arrange shipping , etc , duty necessary leave e mail ersys edmonton ab ca call \( 403 \) 459 ask dj dave ersys edmonton ab ca
teal csn org \( collins \) subject looking mike damico nntp posting host teal csn org organization colorado supernet , inc x newsreader tin 1 1 pl4 lines 11 recently purchased ibm monochrome vga monitor mike damico monitor arrived missing 's power cable mike 's address apparently proper address mail ca n't reach anyone knows contact mike could help find would appreciate sure set aside power cord packing monitor would lot useful cord well collins , professor computer education colorado mountain college newcastle co us
reply win net \( richard \) win net \( richard \) subject psychics lines 14 look future discover lies ahead love , health finance speak live psychic choice 900 446 extension 107 must 18 call calls cost 2 95 per minute introduction
02106 ravel udel edu \( samuel ross \) subject books sale ! ! ! make offer ! ! ! nntp posting host ravel udel edu organization university delaware distribution usa lines 25 someone please buy books ! ! ! ! ! asking much ! ! ! ! ! ! make offer probably take ! ! ! ! ! writing good software fortran , graham smith holt handbook kirszner mandell \( copyright 1986 \) 720 page writing guide general chemistry principles modern applications , r petrucci , fourth edition big book ! good condition ! solutions manual chemistry book paperback study guide chemistry book paperback send offers via email 02106 chopin udel edu sam 02106 chopin udel edu
sunil eng sun com \( \) subject honda accord sale organization sun microsystems , inc mt view , ca lines 17 distribution ba reply sunil eng sun com \( \) nntp posting host camilla originator rajaram camilla honda accord sale 4 dr , steel grey , 1984 honda accord miles 5 speed \( manual \) gives around brand new clutch \( installed last month \) original owner fm \( cassette n't work \) , c , cruise control 2500 b runs great reason selling recently purchased new car call raj \( 510 \) 938 5600 , ext 251 \( days \) \( 510 \) 796 \( evenings \) email sunil eng sun com
ucsd edu \( james \) subject usrobotics courier hst 14 4 sale summary modem sale lines 22 nntp posting host ucsd edu us robotics courier hst 14 4k modem external \( volume control , led display , power switch \) 1600 1700 cps compressed file transfers \( higher uncompressed files \) manuals original packaging modem costs around 500 v 42 error control v 42bis data mnp class 5 error free throughput 38 , 400 bps special price ! ! ! ! 220 ! ! ! ! ! ! please inquire questions email sdcc13 ucsd edu call voice 619 622 1949 james
cleveland freenet edu \( evans \) subject time line windows organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 15 nntp posting host slc10 ins cwru edu sale time line windows symantec never opened still wrap 495 00 asking 250 00 send e mail interested jonathan internet cleveland freenet edu jonathan evans wariat org
magnus acs ohio state edu \( kenneth w miller \) subject stereo system sale nntp posting host bottom magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 1 ken
athena mit edu \( \) subject looking technics sa organization massachusetts institute technology lines 9 distribution world nntp posting host marinara mit edu would like sell technics sa receiver , know someone would like sell , please contact i'm willing pay reasonable price thanx \( 617 \) 225 athena mit edu
scherf netcom com \( steve scherf \) subject sale altos 2000 unix machine organization moondog software , sunnyvale , ca lines 273 altos 2000 system v 3 unix system sale \( actually two , one 's \) several years ago well known machines sold 30 , 000 base configuration particular one much base configuration , depending want 386 16 mhz cpu 8 meg ram fifteen \( 15 \) serial ports \( want \) ! multidrop port 256 serial ports ! ethernet 5 25 floppy drive qic 24 cartridge tape drive 170 meg esdi hard drive \( either micropolis cdc , want \) unix system v 3 installation networking software package \( tcp ip \) development system software package \( c compiler libraries \) asking 700 \( firm \) system ! want another ethernet serial card , add 50 additional disks 100 \( install total three esdi drives \) would consider trade scsi dat tape drive box would make great bbs system terminal server originally designed service 40 active users , 70 moderately active users pc ! designed unix box start , 's fast exceptionally reliable 's dimensions approximately 2 5' high \( tower \) , 8 wide 2 deep interested dealing someone local enough come pick shipping way much hassle call wish , send email steve scherf \( 408 \) 736 2093 home \( 408 \) 559 5616 work steve moonsoft com scherf swdc stratus com newsgroups ba market misc , ba market computers , misc forsale , misc forsale computers , misc forsale computers subject sale altos 2000 unix machine summary expires references distribution organization moondog software , sunnyvale , ca keywords altos 2000 system v 3 unix system sale \( actually two , one 's \) several years ago well known machines sold 30 , 000 base configuration particular one much base configuration , depending want 386 16 mhz cpu 8 meg ram fifteen \( 15 \) serial ports \( want \) ! multidrop port 256 serial ports ! ethernet 5 25 floppy drive qic 24 cartridge tape drive 170 meg esdi hard drive \( either micropolis cdc , want \) unix system v 3 installation networking software package \( tcp ip \) development system software package \( c compiler libraries \) asking 700 \( firm \) system ! want another ethernet serial card , add 50 additional disks 100 \( install total three esdi drives \) would consider trade scsi dat tape drive box would make great bbs system terminal server originally designed service 40 active users , 70 moderately active users pc ! designed unix box start , 's fast exceptionally reliable 's dimensions approximately 2 5' high \( tower \) , 8 wide 2 deep interested dealing someone local enough come pick shipping way much hassle call wish , send email steve scherf \( 408 \) 736 2093 home \( 408 \) 559 5616 work steve moonsoft com scherf swdc stratus com newsgroups ba market misc , ba market computers , misc forsale , misc forsale computers , misc forsale computers subject sale altos 2000 unix machine organization moondog software , sunnyvale , ca altos 2000 system v 3 unix system sale \( actually two , one 's \) several years ago well known machines sold 30 , 000 base configuration particular one much base configuration , depending want 386 16 mhz cpu 8 meg ram fifteen \( 15 \) serial ports \( want \) ! multidrop port 256 serial ports ! ethernet 5 25 floppy drive qic 24 cartridge tape drive 170 meg esdi hard drive \( either micropolis cdc , want \) unix system v 3 installation networking software package \( tcp ip \) development system software package \( c compiler libraries \) asking 700 \( firm \) system ! want another ethernet serial card , add 50 additional disks 100 \( install total three esdi drives \) would consider trade scsi dat tape drive box would make great bbs system terminal server originally designed service 40 active users , 70 moderately active users pc ! designed unix box start , 's fast exceptionally reliable 's dimensions approximately 2 5' high \( tower \) , 8 wide 2 deep interested dealing someone local enough come pick shipping way much hassle call wish , send email steve scherf \( 408 \) 736 2093 home \( 408 \) 559 5616 work steve moonsoft com scherf swdc stratus com newsgroups ba market misc , ba market computers , misc forsale , misc forsale computers , misc forsale computers subject sale altos 2000 unix machine summary expires references sender followup distribution organization moondog software , sunnyvale , ca keywords altos 2000 system v 3 unix system sale \( actually two , one 's \) several years ago well known machines sold 30 , 000 base configuration particular one much base configuration , depending want 386 16 mhz cpu 8 meg ram fifteen \( 15 \) serial ports \( want \) ! multidrop port 256 serial ports ! ethernet 5 25 floppy drive qic 24 cartridge tape drive 170 meg esdi hard drive \( either micropolis cdc , want \) unix system v 3 installation networking software package \( tcp ip \) development system software package \( c compiler libraries \) asking 700 \( firm \) system ! want another ethernet serial card , add 50 additional disks 100 \( install total three esdi drives \) would consider trade scsi dat tape drive box would make great bbs system terminal server originally designed service 40 active users , 70 moderately active users pc ! designed unix box start , 's fast exceptionally reliable 's dimensions approximately 2 5' high \( tower \) , 8 wide 2 deep interested dealing someone local enough come pick shipping way much hassle call wish , send email steve scherf \( 408 \) 736 2093 home \( 408 \) 559 5616 work steve moonsoft com scherf swdc stratus com newsgroups ba market misc , ba market computers , misc forsale , misc forsale computers , misc forsale computers subject sale altos 2000 unix machine organization moondog software , sunnyvale , ca altos 2000 system v 3 unix system sale \( actually two , one 's \) several years ago well known machines sold 30 , 000 base configuration particular one much base configuration , depending want 386 16 mhz cpu 8 meg ram fifteen \( 15 \) serial ports \( want \) ! multidrop port 256 serial ports ! ethernet 5 25 floppy drive qic 24 cartridge tape drive 170 meg esdi hard drive \( either micropolis cdc , want \) unix system v 3 installation networking software package \( tcp ip \) development system software package \( c compiler libraries \) asking 700 \( firm \) system ! want another ethernet serial card , add 50 additional disks 100 \( install total three esdi drives \) would consider trade scsi dat tape drive box would make great bbs system terminal server originally designed service 40 active users , 70 moderately active users pc ! designed unix box start , 's fast exceptionally reliable 's dimensions approximately 2 5' high \( tower \) , 8 wide 2 deep interested dealing someone local enough come pick shipping way much hassle call wish , send email steve scherf \( 408 \) 736 2093 home \( 408 \) 559 5616 work steve moonsoft com scherf swdc stratus com newsgroups ba market misc , ba market computers , misc forsale , misc forsale computers , misc forsale computers subject sale altos 2000 unix machine summary expires references sender followup distribution organization moondog software , sunnyvale , ca keywords altos 2000 system v 3 unix system sale \( actually two , one 's \) several years ago well known machines sold 30 , 000 base configuration particular one much base configuration , depending want 386 16 mhz cpu 8 meg ram fifteen \( 15 \) serial ports \( want \) ! multidrop port 256 serial ports ! ethernet 5 25 floppy drive qic 24 cartridge tape drive 170 meg esdi hard drive \( either micropolis cdc , want \) unix system v 3 installation networking software package \( tcp ip \) development system software package \( c compiler libraries \) asking 700 \( firm \) system ! want another ethernet serial card , add 50 additional disks 100 \( install total three esdi drives \) would consider trade scsi dat tape drive box would make great bbs system terminal server originally designed service 40 active users , 70 moderately active users pc ! designed unix box start , 's fast exceptionally reliable 's dimensions approximately 2 5' high \( tower \) , 8 wide 2 deep interested dealing someone local enough come pick shipping way much hassle call wish , send email steve scherf \( 408 \) 736 2093 home \( 408 \) 559 5616 work steve moonsoft com scherf swdc stratus com steve scherf ceo moondog software steve zeppelin moonsoft com
magnus acs ohio state edu \( shane \) subject wanted ph seagate organization ohio state university lines 15 nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu seagate hard drive need info specific information anyone ph seagate technology , inc \? \( bbs setup drive info , like maxtor , 'll take ! \) thanks ! apple ii forever ! ! go bucks ! play ! ! raging bullwinkle ! shane cis osu net magnus acs ohio state edu root tap colum org nextmail shane kiwi ohio state edu gs call p bbs 614 297 16 8k ds hst 425 megs gs
rupin dang dartmouth edu \( rupin dang \) subject nikkor 70 forsale 165 organization dartmouth college , hanover , nh lines 2 price reduced asking 165 !
mike budlanski mike budlanski canrem com subject unix reply mike budlanski mike budlanski canrem com organization canada remote systems distribution misc lines 21 unix unix unix unix unix unix unix forsale esix unix system v release 4 new ! 2 user license system 400 unlimited user license system 450 2 user license system dev kit 500 unlimited user license system dev kit 550 systems include floppies tapes manuals new never installed market value systems 1500 us ! interested , please contact 416 233 canada remote systems toronto , ontario 416 629 7000 629 7044
gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) subject physically sound lp records 4 sale , trade barter nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) organization phds hall distribution usa lines 34 still 70 records left hand , pristine condition \( except noted \) , quite print imports bunch rather selling majority 3 4 , i'm looking barter packages stuff might selling usenet 'll also trade records good condition 've replaced cd , well pre recorded videos beta vhs past , 've able make deals based equivalent list store price \( e g , 1 cd 1 movie beta format \) get around might originally paid \( even remember ! \( \) time , i'm looking set working aa nicad batteries lying around , 're sound , rsvp ! 're curious , rsvp list see anything like , send back proposal record package copy ad stuff 're selling thanks ! gld e , imports prints also valued 1 used cd got 2400 baud external modem 10 records \( list 81 \) anybody got nice , unused blender making frozen \? \( ps additions since last posting february list shrunk 've made deals since je souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go ! ! ! gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
vm cmp ilstu edu subject wanted playboy campus girls issues organization illinois state university lines 5 i'm looking buy annual playboy magazine issue featuring girls colleges around us , want issues 1989 , 1990 , 1991 1992 one features girl went high school , i'm curious see turned help appreciated
hans meyer hmmeyer silver ucs indiana edu subject panasonic organization indiana university lines 33 would like sell camcorder havent used much need money panasonic pv 17 vhs c high speed shutter flying head 8 1 power zoom digital tracking audio video auto tracking digital automatic focus book mark search record review automatic white balance ccd image sensor hq system includes rechargeable battery battery charger vhs adapter 4 compact video cassettes original docs , cables , box , etc got new sept '92 used total 20 25 times battery charged less 5 times thing brand new condition asking 550 make offer hans meyer
kari sage cc purdue edu \( kari \) subject cd player , 3 5 1 floppy , 360k floppy , rc car stuff \( lots \) ! ! ! ! please read immediate sale ! keywords misc , drives , rc , cd player , cd 's organization purdue university computing center distribution misc lines 46 greetings netters , following items immediate sale need money need stuff , work deal \) sharp single disk cd player originally paid , couple years ago works well , standards \( remote sensor remote included 20 track memory etc \) got new one need sell one please email offer ! ! \( 's standard black component style cd player \) 3 5 1 44 meg floppy drive real ibm floppy drive cable mounting case paid 40 couple months ago drive works \( last time \) would like get 40 back , obo applies 5 25 360k floppy drive i'm sure someone needs extra 360k works great nice quiet , please email offer remote control car 4 time world leader design runs great , even though body pretty new engine well racing chassis hard running , 's still great car include electronics comes monster truck conversion kit \( wheel arms already installed \) virgin truck body bumper etc car kit 100 20 120 obo make offer ! stuff name , probably please send email regarding want request sale list hate part , needs needs , eh \? misc cd 's alice chains 8 skid row \( self titled \) 8 obo really box computer printer paper paid 20 , make offer might 4 1 9 meg 60 ns simms forsale get new motherboard interested , price 40 piece sold set thanks advance , please respond soon conveniently possible dave kari sage cc purdue edu 317 495
brownvm brown edu \( \) subject mac modem wanted organization brown university lines 5 nntp posting host brownvm brown edu x news software bnn via bnn post v1 0 beta would like buy cheap modem mac mention would prefer cheap \? 2400 baud preferred , 're looking cheap \( mean cheap \) ca n't e mail oh , i'm seattle , also , would bonus
subject intel i486dx 33 cpu 300 shipping eagle wesleyan edu organization wesleyan university nntp posting host wesleyan edu lines 11 forsale intel i486dx 33 cpu price 300 must sell immediately wei ku lin eagle wesleyan edu
munroe dmc com \( dick munroe \) subject repost tape drives \( 4mm , 8mm \) sale organization doyle , munroe consultants , inc , hudson , lines 19 article 1993apr21 1479 dmc com , munroe dmc com \( dick munroe \) writes acorn software , inc 3 tape drives \( currently used vms system \) sale scsi tape drives working condition wangdat 1300 4mm 500 00 wangdat 2600 4mm \( compression \) 650 00 exabyte 8mm 650 00 \( sale pending \) plus shipping cod certified checks , please units sold without warrantee contact 're interested dick munroe internet munroe dmc com doyle munroe consultants , inc uucp uunet ! ! munroe 267 cox st office \( 508 \) 568 1618 hudson , fax \( 508 \) 562 1133 get connected ! ! ! send mail info dmc com find
johnson pb wes mot com \( johnson \) subject nw chicago suburbs cheap car sale organization motorola land mobile products sector distribution usa nntp posting host 129 188 176 18 lines 9 79 toyota corolla 4d hatchback , runs ok , needs dents , serious brake work miscellaneous tlc excellent auto shop project 250 obo see schaumburg \( 708 \) 658 , \( 708 \) 576 , email johnson behind every absurdity lies basic truth johnson wes mot com behind every basic truth lies absurdity
vm cmp ilstu edu subject sale hit movies vhs organization illinois state university lines 14 following vhs tapes sale great shape sold since replaced star wars empire strikes back return jedi batman indiana jones temple doom indiana jones last crusade e interested titles , please mail offer
jwg0 ns1 cc lehigh edu \( john walter \) subject last chance 20 playboy magazines organization lehigh university lines 54 roommate left playboy collection longer wants , i'm offering general public \( that's ! \) make offer entire collection current best offer 40 shipping accept best offer \( offer include cheapest method shipping bethlehem , pa \) 1992 february \( rachel williams , world tour , pom tanya beyer \) 1991 may \( shannon tracy pom jean \) july \( tall girls , miss bulgaria , pom wendy kaye \) september \( twins pom \) november \( la jackson pom marie christensen \) december \( parkinson price right pom wendy hamilton \) 1990 july \( sharon stone , marilyn look alike , pom jacqueline \) october \( girls big west , marisa , pom york \) november \( got made , sex cinema , pom lorraine olivia , \) 1989 january \( 35th anniversary issue collector 's edition \) february \( year sex , rio 's grand , pom eden \) march \( la jackson pom laurie wood \) august \( women wall st , diana lee license kill , pom \) november \( donna mills , sex cinema '89 , pom renee \) 1988 august \( sunshine girls pom \) october \( girls southwest conference pom shannon long \) november \( women washington , sex cinema '88 , pom pia \) december \( playmate review , sex stars '88 , anthony , pom \) 1987 november \( hahn , sex cinema '87 , pom pam stein \) also special edition playboy presents 100 beautiful women mba looking job hiring \? e mail jwg0 lehigh edu take walk wild side lehigh university \) bethlehem , pa usa \( j h n g e w r w k
beezer cc utah edu \( beezer \) subject forsale wedding dress size 9 news software vax vms vnews 1 4 b1 organization salt lick , ut distribution usa lines 5 size 9 wedding dress lots , inquire 801 269 1157 mst \( utah \) paid asking
cnsvax uwec edu subject wanted 256k 60ns sips organization university wisconsin eau claire lines 4 wanted 4 256k 60ns sips please tell much want shipping
utarlg uta edu subject intel chmos 8086 8088 design kit news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host utarlg uta edu organization university texas arlington lines 33 kit includes following 1 \) 5 chmos clock generator driver 8086 , processors 2 \) 64k \( \) chmos uv prom 3 \) low power 64k x 4 chmos dynamic ram 4 \) 2 chmos programmable interrupt controller 5 \) chmos bus controller fro , processors 6 \) 2 8 bit chmos microprocessor 7 \) chmos programmable peripheral interface 8 \) chmos programmable interval timer 9 \) chmos dynamic ram controller chips complete manual box n't know whether still work , n't really know mainly knows use \( probably ee stuff since used belong ee student \) anyone interested , please make offer
nx39 mik uky edu \( jerry marvin \) subject looking grating glasses quantity nntp posting host nx39 mik uky edu organization university kentucky , dept math sciences lines 5 yeah , sums looking place sells grating goggles quantity thanks
nx39 mik uky edu \( jerry marvin \) subject hp plotters sale nntp posting host nx39 mik uky edu organization university kentucky , dept math sciences lines 6 new plotters , 2 'em , straight box , docs lost make offer , cod shipping jj mik uky edu
davi saturn rowan edu subject 85 mb western digital hard drive sale lines 11 nntp posting host saturn rowan edu organization rowan college nj , , nj digital caviar 280 internal hard drive 85 3 mb 3 5 half height ide 1 5 years old great shape ! 160 closest offer ! mike davi saturn rowan edu
ucs usl edu \( hebert marc \) subject wanted portable color tv organization univ southwestern la , lafayette lines 10 seems i'm fortunate position desire many people want sell miniature color tv require color input cable vcr would prefer diagonal tube television \( lcd \) get paid first , make offer email marc
zeus tamu edu \( andrew \) subject 386 25 sale complete system organization texas university , academic computing services lines 39 distribution world nntp posting host zeus tamu edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 following system sale 386dx 25mhz \( dtk motherboard intel microprocessor \) 64k external cache 4 megs ram 89 meg harddrive \( ide controller \) 1 2 meg floppy drive 1 44 meg floppy drive 2 serial ports 1 parallel port samsung vga monitor svga graphics card \( tseng labs w 1meg \) awesome card 101 key keyboard 2400 baud internal modem software ms dos 6 0 procomm plus ver 2 0 norton utilities ver 4 5 various utilities i'm upgrading need sell system reliable ready go 've never problems i'm asking 1000 b 're interested , please respond either e mail phone zeus tamu edu 409 696 thanks , andrew
andrew cmu edu subject sony camcorder 399 organization senior , math computer science , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 9 nntp posting host po2 andrew cmu edu sony ccd v9 8mm camcorder originally bought 1200 399 original box andrew cmu edu 412 268
hpcc01 corp hp com \( vladimir \) subject sun laptop 2500 b organization hp corporate notes server lines 16 sun laptop workstation 2500 best offer 16m ram expandable hard drive 3 5 floppy drive os 4 1 open windows 3 lcd display scsi 2 mouse ac adaptor , manuals , carring case posted friend please contact directly please call \( 415 \) 858 1306
davisonj en ecn purdue edu \( john davison \) subject cd 's sale organization purdue university engineering computer network distribution usa lines 10 article 1993apr21 leland stanford edu leland stanford edu \( ryan \) writes paid 19 95 cd , 're fool got ripped please tell get cd music label less 20 , john davison davisonj ecn purdue edu
agate ! ames ! purdue ! mentor cc purdue edu ! sage cc purdue edu ! kari subject 130 meg seagate ide hard drive kari sage cc purdue edu \( kari \) distribution misc forsale , misc forsale computers , purdue forsale organization purdue university computing center keywords drive , ide , meg , 130 meg seagate ide drive sell come across lines 0
bmaraldo watserv1 uwaterloo ca \( commander brett maraldo \) subject apple ii clone sale \( plus extras \) 170 organization university waterloo distribution na lines 17 please take system hands longer use taking valuable room system consists microcom apple ii clone 64k board installed comes load boards , including disk drive board , 2 z80 boards , 16k board , 80 column board , couple printer boards including grappler ii 2 1 2 height drives cooling fan keyboard extended variety keywords keypad 170 brett maraldo plexus productions unit 36 research alien technology today bmaraldo watserv1 uwaterloo ca uunet ! clyde ! utai ! watserv1 ! bmaraldo
astro ocis temple edu \( george \) subject triumph convertible organization temple university lines 29 nntp posting host astro ocis temple edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 f r l e triumph '76 , 1500 convertible 54 , original miles color wooden dashboard rust garage kept heater chrome bumpers \( black plastic crap \) brand new top asking 3 , 000 negotiable mechanically car good shape running strong \( know mean \) \) plenty catalogs manuals coming car interested car please reply message interested willing sell parts car good condition strip george astro ocis temple edu
bmaraldo watserv1 uwaterloo ca \( commander brett maraldo \) subject headphones akg \( 200 \) sale organization university waterloo distribution na lines 17 pair akg nearly new condition sale used studio monitoring original box use electret element dynamic element ear cup built smooth frequency response electrostatic element gives clearer asking 200 pair brett maraldo plexus unit 36 research alien technology today bmaraldo watserv1 uwaterloo ca uunet ! clyde ! utai ! watserv1 ! bmaraldo
iastate edu \( paul \) subject 12 record singles sale organization iowa state university , ames , ia lines 76 i'm selling bunch older 12 records sitting around collecting dust never use used records , , maybe twice n't record song wanted correctly first time records perfect condition please email records would want think fair price probably give deals , records buy kinda n't well give yell iastate edu comments see ya paul recieved questions 12 guess elaborate \( \? \? \? ! ! ! ! old \? \) singles wax correct beat still use form record probably kind person interested parts questions call \( 515 \) 294 thanks see ya artist song soul ii soul get life \( back life \) back life mob put hands together \( rhythm within \) c'mon get janet jackson rhythm nation black cat milli blame rain \( girl i'm gonna miss \) priest close \( know love \) quincy jones 'll good inxs suicide blonde \( body wants u tonight \) kinda girl mc hammer turn \( ring 'em \) madonna keep together vogue lisa right time around world \( \) b love emotion depeche mode personal jesus \( dangerous \) policy truth \( \) enjoy silence \( \) england world motion snap ooops \( believe hype \) power tic tac toe rebel mc street tuff rob base turn mr lee get busy love 's party \( 'll drive crazy \) time jerk black box everybody everybody johnny gill rub right way b 52 's roam \( \) right thing digital underground humpty dance beat \( pump jam , tough \) jane child n't wanna fall love \( world \) young mc come bust move \( got \) 2 room wiggle glenn ai n't worth
rfp jhuvm hcf jhu edu \( rebecca \) subject wanted summer sublet dc organization johns hopkins university , homewood academic computing lines 7 nntp posting host jhuvm hcf jhu edu wanted summer sublet nw dc , red metro line bedroom , share common areas others apartment room 400 less move memorial day weekend end august smokers email yalevm rfp jhuvm
ssa unity ncsu edu \( alavi \) subject complete aix ps 2 software manuals \( best offer \) \( repost \) originator ssa cc ncsu edu organization nc state university distribution usa lines 24 friend mine complete set aix ps 2 1 2 software manuals sale \( new \) \( 1 44 meg floppies \) including base os development tools \( including c compiler \) administration extensions x windows motif tcp ip pc simulator \( dos merge \) etc etc \( software requires ps 2 386 processor higher , ample disk space memory \) coexist dos os 2 machine , selectively booted startup \) interested email offer pass along keep mind manuals software fill box shipping consideration \( please include message reference \) alavi ssa unity ncsu edu \( 919 \) 467 7909 \( h \) \( 919 \) 515 8063 \( w \)
ssa unity ncsu edu \( alavi \) subject 6300 unix sysv software sale \( best offer \) \( repost \) organization nc state university distribution usa lines 22 chance full unix system small cost full set unix system 6300 sale version 2 5 \( latest far know \) includes software \( 1 2meg 5 25 floppies \) manuals base os development tools \( c compilers etc \) dos merge \( \) etc \( beleive software requires 6300 work machine \) also 6300 manuals including system programmers guide anyone interested drop line offer interested \( please include message reference \) alavi ssa unity ncsu edu \( 919 \) 467 7909 \( h \) \( 919 \) 515 8063 \( w \)
psr acsu buffalo edu \( strider \) subject wanted roller blades organization ub lines 14 nntp posting host autarch acsu buffalo edu i'm looking pair inline skates \( aka roller blades \) new used less 60 00 including shipping size 11 strider suny buffalo psr acsu buffalo edu lord mayor , hill people \( 716 \) 636 ubvms bitnet son , able , said , though scare watch , said , beloved strider suny buffalo psr acsu buffalo edu lord mayor , hill people \( 716 \) 636 ubvms bitnet son , able , said , though scare watch , said , beloved
subject items sale must sell koutd hiram edu \( douglas kou \) organization hiram college nntp posting host hiram edu lines 62 items sale package bought throught award give away company attempted cancel order received package , late company refused take package back refund know truth would never get 697 back , wish get money back close possible package 3d camera takes good picture , never used came wide angle flesh , carring case , film , instruction video four lens created 3d effect regular 35mm film jewelry came package additional gift vacation voucher voucher good two rt airfare users get special hotel rate 27 per person per night meals , ground transfer , hotel tax included las vegas , reno , orlando voucher provides one rt airfare , hotel accomodation 3 days 2 nights meals , ground transfer , hotel tax included voucher good 3 locations , ca n't travel 3 places cancun , mexico voucher provides one rt airfare , hotel accomodation 3 days 2 nights meals ground transfer , hotel tax included usual paid 697 whole package try cold blooded make offer details would provided request wish sell whole package looking vacation vouchers , n't care sell camera higher interested camera , could treat vacation vouchers gift receive letter mail box says selected part least one five awards trust , would get exactly package one award given away n't bother even call back , really interested , could get cheaper price could receive package within week \( waited three months get first final packages \) also , would ask credit card number pay interest credit card company spend could get cheaper price interested , please reply soon posible really wish get make offer , confortable offer , would send package u p next day morning details could given wish please contact koutd hirama hiram edu douglas kou hiram college e mail address koutd hirama hiram edu
cs umr edu \( daniel \) subject sale nntp posting host cs umr edu distribution usa organization university missouri rolla originator cs umr edu lines 7 sale trident 1 meg video card 1024x768 256 colors 50 dollars best offer , e mail cs umr edu
munroe dmc com \( dick munroe \) subject repost tape drives \( 4mm , 8mm \) sale organization doyle , munroe consultants , inc , hudson , lines 18 acorn software , inc 3 tape drives \( currently used vms system \) sale scsi tape drives working condition wangdat 1300 4mm 500 00 wangdat 2600 4mm \( compression \) 650 00 \( sale pending \) exabyte 8mm 650 00 \( sale pending \) plus shipping cod certified checks , please units sold without warrantee contact 're interested dick munroe internet munroe dmc com doyle munroe consultants , inc uucp uunet ! ! munroe 267 cox st office \( 508 \) 568 1618 hudson , fax \( 508 \) 562 1133 get connected ! ! ! send mail info dmc com find
carson u washington edu \( keith frederick \) subject loaded apple e system sale summary apple e w 2 5 25 drives , 1 3 5 drive , etc sale article shelley distribution usa organization university washington , seattle lines 32 nntp posting host carson u washington edu apple e system sale apple e , enhanced , cpu w 64k motherboard apple extended 80 column card expands memory 128k total 2 5 25 floppy drives \( apple disk 's \) apple controller card 1 3 5 floppy drive \( apple \) apple controller card apple monochrome monitor 2 apple super serial cards 2400 baud external modem original documentation dos 3 3 system software talk cheap communications software \( original w docs \) forth \( original w docs \) , fig forth w original docs super sunday game \( original w docs \) game \( original w docs \) books 6502 systems programming , apple graphics arcade game design , apple machine language beginners 250 \( shipping probably 20 30 \) questions , please e mail reasonable offers considered keith r frederick happiness moral purpose \( 206 \) 285 1576 see dr fu , kill ! carson u washington edu reason absolute i'm number , i'm free man ! cis , road cornell
organization penn state university guf psuvm psu edu subject tandy word processor sale lines 29 tandy wordprocessor sale \( due 128k due ram disk \) , word processing program , 200 , 000 word spell checker , thesaurus , 1 thin weighs 3 lbs takes 4 aa batteries \( alkaline ni cad \) uses ac adapter \( \) full size qwerty keyboard 80 character 8 line lcd screen also telcom program allows transfers files ibmpc null modem cable shareware transfer program \( also included \) 9 pin serial port , parallel printer port , tape recorder file save port telcom program also modem \( included \) access services like compuserve great unit high school college student write papers reports comes original manual get 125 00 plus shipping cod charges send e mail inquiries gilbert j gall internet guf psuvm psu edu penn state university 201 old bldg phone 814 865 \( office \) university park , pa
jbell eecom gatech edu \( jb \) subject sony watchman 60 organization computer engineering group , georgia tech , atlanta , ga 30332 0250 distribution usa lines 13 sony b w watchman tv sony b w 2 5 inch tv excellent condition used much , thus selling gets great 60 reception sells new 100 asking 60 small enough \( 3 x6 x2 \) carry around anywhere please e mail jbell eecom gatech edu john bell georgia institute technology school electrical engineering atlanta , ga 30332 0250 e mail jbell eecom gatech edu
jbell eecom gatech edu \( jb \) subject word perfect 2 1 100 offer organization computer engineering group , georgia tech , atlanta , ga 30332 0250 distribution usa lines 14 word perfect v2 1 mac brand new copy word perfect 2 1 latest release , 100 used still shrink wrap student version upgradable newer version sells 250 would like get 100 please e mail jbell eecom gatech edu john bell georgia institute technology school electrical engineering atlanta , ga 30332 0250 e mail jbell eecom gatech edu
cheung kosmos wcc govt nz subject wanted transformers \( toys \) organization wellington city council \( public access \) , , nz lines 15 reply cheung kosmos wcc govt nz nntp posting host kosmos wcc govt nz hey , collection interested buying good condition particularly interested older , exotic models \( eg five transformers one etc looking paying around 20 40 depending upon model , size original cost etc also pay airmail postage packing also happy buy old sci fi related toys eg robots , , etc one catch live new zealand willing post items hop someone help cheers darren
giza hq ileaf com \( jim giza \) subject house sale sandwich , nntp posting host reply giza hq ileaf com \( jim giza \) organization interleaf , inc distribution usa lines 18 sale owners also builders contemporary cape house located sandwich , three bedrooms , two baths , one car oversized garage large eat kitchen cathedral ceiling back living room deck kitchen dining room 20 , 000 sq ft 1 , 696 sq ft living space full walk basement 139 , 900 , creative financing possibility contact peg moore \( 508 \) 771 ron \( 508 \) 394
atg holmes acc virginia edu \( adrian gibson \) subject dayna etherprint adapters originator atg holmes acc virginia edu organization university virginia distribution usa lines 11 two brand new dayna etherprint adapters \( 10baset \) sale convert localtalk useful wanting hook localtalk network printer \( 10baset \) network sell 350 mac warehouse take 100 guaranteed email response atg virginia edu todd gibson \( 804 \) 979
cbnewsk cb att com \( michael \) subject turbo w 8 games sale organization distribution na lines 17 base unit 1 controller cables games kieth courage axe fantasy zone victory run wrestling challenge blazing lasers military madness bloody wolf asking 160 00 ship cod call mike 908 949 \( day \) 908 469 3250 \( eve \)
cbnewsk cb att com \( michael \) subject unit w games sale organization distribution na lines 15 selling base unit 2 controllers 1 atari game adapter play atari games 12 games \( ms pac man , , etc \) ship cod price make offer call cheryl 908 805 2011 \( day \) 908 469 3250 \( eve \)
mike diack mike staff tc umn edu subject electronic components etc x xxmessage id dialup slip 1 21 gw umn edu x xxdate fri , 23 apr 93 02 32 48 gmt nntp posting host dialup slip 1 21 gw umn edu organization persian cat carpet co x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d7 lines 19 said cipher tape drives 10 00 silly boy , zillions messages like include shipping scsi rom version work 9000 ok , deal live twin cities , email , set time , sure , drop round grab one else min order 20 \( 2 drives \) shipping guarantees good purpose \( look clean \) , technical negotiations model 525 , part 639 revision 17 pin floppy style connector back else go bin life short extended negotiations 10 items \) cheers mike
gt0463b prism gatech edu \( michael davis smith \) subject airline ticket sale distribution usa organization georgia institute technology lines 17 airline ticket ata cincinnati friend one ticket atlanta cin , oh one seat economy class delta ticket return half round trip currently woman 's name need fly back need sell ticket flyer would go standby ticket dated asking 90 posting friend please email responses instead contact rick 513 271 michael davis smith georgia institute technology , atlanta georgia , 30332 uucp ! decvax , hplabs , ncar , purdue , rutgers ! gatech ! prism ! gt0463b internet gt0463b prism gatech edu
athena mit edu \( wayne r dempsey \) subject computer equipment garage sale ! ! ! organization massachusetts institute technology lines 124 distribution usa nntp posting host venus mit edu computer equipment garage sale 've finally decided clean get rid stuff broken used 've put together list indicated think item worth estimate , open offers , including trades i'm currently looking cd roms work mac cd rom player cd , hd floppy disks , used macintosh software , 387 33mhz co processor , basically anything lying around \( cans soup , neighbor 's cat , etc \) make offer , offer overlooked really want get rid stuff ok , 's list 52 meg 3 5 scsi hard drive conner model cp bought guy swap meet use macintosh unfortunately , ca n't seem get work scsi controller computer guy tested pc , printed copy norton disk doctor report says bad sectors \( 'll send copy \) dumb enough get phone number , ca n't return drive many jumpers , \( n't know set \) maybe 's problem quite disappointed n't work i'm trying minimize losses 45 52 meg 3 5 scsi hard drive conner model cp situation bought drives guy despite different model numbers exact drive report ndd \( one drive \) included 45 40 meg sony 3 5 scsi hard drive sony model drive mechanism completely trashed hard drive computer \( mac se \) problem well , repeated banging side computer resulted head crash \( yes , metal scraping metal \) pleasant listen still scsi controller card good working order , used parts , project 20 65 meg seagate 5 25 hh scsi hard drive model st originally bought drive , small problem , though could fix well determined drive mechanism fine , controller problem \( motor controller n't sending proper signals \) well , taking controller drive , looking , putting back together , realized accidentally severed one small flat cables connect drive controller tried solder , i'm good soldering could n't worked perfectly messed used temporary drive sony \( \) crashed also loaded drive twenty mac applications , worth well 1000 \( claris cad , ms word 5 0 , think c , excel , many others \) think needs cable also get software drive \( accept pirate \) ask delete data files drive really angry broke connection , could n't fix n't time play 65 isdn 7500 modem use digital phone systems know would like technical information , let know tech documents supposed thing digital phone , without phone part seems working order \( passes self test perfectly ok \) idea worth let know 're interested motorola coprocessor n't tested one yet , anyone interested get tested , make sure works trouble using accelerator board , spoke manufacturer board found could n't used without another controller chip looking around buy one new , prices around 100 guarantee work 65 cga card half length 8 bit n't working last time checked \( although think using bad monitor \) 5 5 25 360k floppy drive ibm drive type guaranteed work , took pc , working ! 25 5 25 360k floppy drive toshiba model number nd guaranteed work came pc 25 5 25 floppy drives ca n't guarantee work n't even know low high density drives n't method testing panasonic model number ju 455 5 acg 's another number 2626 panasonic model number ju 475 2 's also another number toshiba model number nd virtually identical one drive 10 3 5 ps 2 drive things proprietary , ca n't test , think works sure 's high density low density , suppose someone looking one would know model number think things expensive replace 35 mfm hard drive controller cards 've got three , way testing two 8 bit cards , one sixteen bit card floppy controller built 10 8 bits 15 16 bit card w floppy interesting cable seems convert vga plug ega plug , standard nine pin vga 15 pin made hewlett packard part 10 've sold stuff like , huge success , many satisfied people trading stuff n't need anymore usually ship u postal service \( n't problems yet \) shipping costs split negotiated well , 's folks said , offer refused convince give instead throwing , try ! hate throw away stuff wayne athena mit edu \( 617 \) 225
tm0006 lerc nasa gov \( greg l \) subject vhs movie sale organization nasa lewis research center cleveland , ohio lines 38 distribution world nntp posting host tm0006 lerc nasa gov news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article 1993apr21 cabell vcu edu , cabell vcu edu \( robert r \) writes n't mcdonald 's sell copies dances wovies 7 long ago \? also selling babes toyland \( scott version ! \) something even think video drive thru 'll take , , copy debbie go want fries \? makes perfect sense think cheap food cheap movies cheapest format feel full , nutritional quality ai n't \) feast little buy beta ! bob \( vcu edu \) post , i'm really going start studying really greg ed beta simply best ! ed beta simply best consumer videotape format available video magazine , nov 1992 , page 30 manufacturers may point perceive u consumer electronics market unsophisticated , march 1993 ,
subject vhs movies must sell moving koutd hiramb hiram edu \( douglas kou \) organization hiram college nntp posting host hiramb hiram edu lines 22 vhs movies sold moving 6 weeks idea happend people made deal , trying post another message , \( n't mean waste valuable time \) basic instinct 11 00 born forth july 11 00 backdraft 11 00 presumed innocent 11 00 prince tides 11 00 dance wolves 11 00 prices including shipping get 60 00 package deals welcome make offer douglas kou hiram college koutd hirama hiram edu
jrm elm circa ufl edu \( jeff mason \) subject jeff mason 's auction marvel , dc , valiant , image , etc organization univ florida psychology dept lines 115 nntp posting host elm circa ufl edu summary thursday april 22 , 1993 update following comics auction highest bid takes ! new stuff added ! ! \( cyberrad , marvel presents , spiderman special , etc \) title minimum current alpha flight 51 \( jim lee 's first work marvel \) 5 00 aliens 1 \( 1st app aliens comics , 1st prnt , may 1988 \) 20 00 krism sold amazing spider man 136 \( intro new green goblin \) 20 00 amazing spider man 238 \( 1st appearance hobgoblin \) 50 00 archer armstrong 1 \( frank miller smith layton \) 7 50 avengers 263 \( 1st appearance x factor \) 3 50 bloodshot 1 \( chromium cover , bwsmith cover poster \) 5 00 twice cyberrad 1 \( cyberrad , prestige silver edition \) 15 00 daredevil 158 \( frank miller art begins \) 35 00 dark horse presents 1 \( 1st app concrete , 1st printing \) 7 50 detective 657 \( azrael appears , intro cypher \) 5 00 detective 658 \( azrael appears \) 4 00 harbinger 10 \( 1st appearance h r corps \) 7 00 b matthey sold h r corps 1 5 00 incredible hulk 324 \( 1st app grey hulk since 1 1962 \) 7 00 incredible hulk 330 \( 1st mcfarlane issue \) 15 00 incredible hulk 331 \( grey hulk series begins \) 11 00 incredible hulk 367 \( 1st dale keown art hulk \) 15 00 incredible hulk 377 \( 1st new hulk , 1st prnt , keown \) 15 00 marvel comics presents 1 \( wolverine , silver surfer \) 7 50 marvel presents \( charleston chew giveaway , sam keith \) 5 00 maxx limited ashcan \( 4000 copies exist , blue cover \) 33 50 brentb sold mr 1 \( signed advance copy , 10 , 000 exist \) 10 00 new mutants 86 \( mcfarlane cover , 1st app cable cameo \) 10 00 new mutants 100 \( 1st app x force \) 5 00 new mutants annual 5 \( 1st liefeld art new mutants \) 10 00 omega men 3 \( 1st appearance lobo \) 7 50 omega men 10 \( 1st full lobo story \) 7 50 power man iron fist 78 \( 3rd appearance sabretooth \) 20 00 power man iron fist 84 \( 4th appearance sabretooth \) 15 00 simpsons comics stories 1 \( polybagged special ed \) 7 50 spectacular spider man 147 \( 1st app new hobgoblin \) 12 50 spider man special \( giveaway , vs venom \) 10 00 star trek next generation 1 \( feb 1988 , dc mini \) 7 50 star trek next generation 1 \( oct 1989 , dc comics \) 7 50 trianglehead 1 \( special limited edition , autographed \) 5 00 web spider man 29 \( hobgoblin , wolverine appear \) 10 00 web spider man 30 \( origin rose , hobgoblin appears \) 7 50 wolverine 10 \( claws , 1st battle sabretooth \) 15 00 wolverine 41 \( sabretooth claims wolverine 's dad \) 5 00 wolverine 42 \( sabretooth proven dad \) 3 50 wolverine 43 \( sabretooth wolverine saga concludes \) 3 00 wolverine 1 \( 1982 mini series , miller art \) 20 00 wonder woman 267 \( return animal man \) 12 50 x force 1 \( signed liefeld , bagged , x force card \) 20 00 x force 1 \( signed liefeld , bagged , shatterstar card \) 10 00 x force 1 \( signed liefeld , bagged , deadpool card \) 10 00 x force 1 \( signed liefeld , bagged , sunspot gideon \) 10 00 comics near mint mint condition , bagged shiny polypropylene bags , backed white acid free boards shipping 1 50 one book , 3 00 one book , free order large enough amount stuff willing haggle thousands thousands comics , please let know 've looking , maybe help titles posted n't list every issue title , tried save space geoffrey r mason jrm elm circa ufl edu department psychology mason webb psych ufl edu university florida prothan maple circa ufl edu
donald dswalker ebay sun com \( walker \) subject items forsale organization sun microsystems , inc lines 24 distribution world reply donald dswalker ebay sun com nntp posting host dswalker ebay sun com items sale take offers following items reserve right refuse offers 1 howard miller clock chimes like grandfather clock 2 painting tiger snow beautiful painting , tiger looks like jump canvas get 3 diamond ring , size 10 3 rows b gold call email donald walker hm 408 263 wk 408 276 3618
vax5 cit cornell edu subject adaptec 1640 scsi mc controller 250 ! ! organization cornell university lines 11 summary adaptec 1640 scsi mc controller 250 ! ! reply vax5 cit cornell edu keywords adaptec 1640 scsi 2 mc busmaster distribution misc forsale i'm selling adaptec 1640 scsi controller card works microchannel machines data transfer rate fast \( get sec scsi hard drive \) , 's relatively slow 100ns ram card 's scsi 2 true bus mastering dma device , goes around 329 bought new i'm including new ez scsi software speedy win 3 1 performance easy configuration i'm selling 225 , 'll pay cod shipping please email directly , either give phone offer , 'll respond mine hope benefit sale microchannel device 's great product !
csd4 csd uwm edu \( chu peng cheong \) subject 16 pg min laser printer sale organization computing services division , university wisconsin milwaukee lines 16 distribution usa nntp posting host 129 89 7 4 originator csd4 csd uwm edu lazer printer , min lazer printer suppose printer 16 pg min never set use expect bigger , i' , wrong used company sale 350 shipping reply interested obo email csd4 csd uwm edu phone leave message 414 332
cs ulowell edu \( tin nguyen \) subject cs misc books ultrix 4 2 manual sale organization u mass lowell distribution na lines 142 hi , 's time clean shelf , price include shipping , n't worry , pay amount see name cover publisher year origin ultimate dos heavy programmer 's manual hard windcrest 1991 50 25 bit mapped graphics hard windcrest 1990 50 25 algorithms c hard addison wesley 1990 45 25 file structure hard addison wesley 1988 36 20 programming data structure \( pascal version \) soft prentice hall 1989 \? 10 digital design hard wiley 1989 51 30 numerical analysis hard pws kent 1990 50 25 w disk batch files go soft mcgraw hill 1992 35 25 advanced batch w disk file programming soft mcgraw hill 1992 30 20 computer graphics principle heavy practice hard addison wesley 1992 65 40 structure interpreter computer program hard hill 1991 40 20 c advanced introduction hard bell tele lab 1989 40 15 building c library soft windcrest 1991 25 15 x window system c lib protocol reference soft digital press 1992 \? 25 oh ! pascal ! soft w w norton 1986 \? 10 differential equation hard pws kent 1990 55 15 applied discrete structure computer science hard macmillan 1993 45 25 programming c soft prentice hall 1990 28 15 using wordperfect 5 0 soft houghton 1989 8 free purchase linear algebra hard addison wesley 1991 50 30 dec station w disks ms dos 3 30 01 gw basic box digital \? \? 20 big gray book next step ultrix ultrix sql net user 's guide database adminstrator 's guide reference manual error message dictionary operation guide guide management services guide server setup guide remote installation service guide bind service guide network file system guide ethernet communication servers introduction networking distributed system service guide yellow page service guide backup restore guide shutdown startup guide disk maintenance guide kerberos uucp utility guide ibm terminal emulation vax processors guide configuration file maintenance guide guide printer clients guide adminstrator 's security guide location broker guide system network setup guide system environment setup guide software licensing guide system exercise guide error guide system crash recovery guide utility security guide users kernal message reference manual reference page section 4 special files 5 file formats 7 macro package conventions asking 100 obo , 's pretty heavy though please e mail feel interested , thank !
marc comp lancs ac uk \( marc goldman \) subject uk wanted vectrex game system uk organization department computing lancaster university , uk distribution uk lines 16 title says , i'm vectrex system one want get rid let know offer cash , possible trades megadrive snes games cheers marc net , one hear scream ! email marc comp lancs ac uk marc computing lancaster ac uk
nx10 mik uky edu \( jerry marvin \) subject wanted technics 1200 nntp posting host nx10 mik uky edu organization university kentucky , dept math sciences lines 4 simple , eh \? rather get 'em used new must guarantee
art compu com \( art lekoff \) subject furniture keywords good condition ! reply art compu com organization art 's house lines 21 need nice furnishings apartment house \? glass topped wood \( sides \) chrome \( \) \( 1 \) coffee \( 2 \) end tables sale \( 1 \) coffee tables approximately five feet length two feet wide \( 2 \) end tables 2 5 ft x 2 5 ft glass clear \( scratches \) first 50 00 takes ! thanks reading ! art art lekoff internet art compu com lisa turn compu erve 2024 compuserve com , pa bell 215 757
albnyvms bitnet subject reply albnyvms bitnet organization university albany , suny lines 10 1988 burton air bindings triple strap back binding board bag included recently 139 firm albnyvms bitnet
bitzm columbia dsu edu \( michael bitz \) subject 1 meg simms sale keywords simms , memory lines 18 organization dakota state university lines 18 hello \( 4 \) simms sale 1 megabyte , 3 chip variety high quality simms , nearly brand new best 60 nanoseconds \( fastest available ! \) please make offer prefer sell four simms person \( lessen shipping costs \) , want one two , please make offer anyway thanks lot bitzm columbia dsu edu mike bitz internet bitzm columbia dsu edu research development bitzm dsuvax dsu edu dakota state university bitnet s93020 sdnet bitnet
rutgers edu \( mark j \) subject cd 's sale distribution usa organization rutgers univ , new brunswick , n j lines 15 article 1993apr22 en ecn purdue edu davisonj en ecn purdue edu \( john davison \) writes article 1993apr21 leland stanford edu leland stanford edu \( ryan \) writes paid 19 95 cd , 're fool got ripped please tell get cd music label less 20 , john davison davisonj ecn purdue edu 's special label , discs going upwards 6 retail outlets average prices cds \? mark
raphael helios nd edu \( anand \) subject nintendo system \( w super mario \) 50 shipping obo organization university notre dame , notre dame distribution misc lines 1
wdl loral com \( tim ryan \) subject jet ski forsale organization loral western development labs distribution usa lines 18 sale 1989 kawasaki ts \( 650 \) seating color white blue red jet ski runs great looks good trailer locking utility box color black trailer less year old garaged kept well maintained 4200 00 \( sold set \) interested call \( 408 \) 473 leave message return call asap thanks , tim ryan standard disclaimer applies
longs lance colostate edu \( jeremy davis \) subject tenor saxophone nntp posting host dark lance colostate edu organization colorado state u engineering college lines 24 sale mark vii tenor saxophone used college jazz band performances include copy new real book collection jazz classics various standards \( paid 30 \) extras included asking 1100 discuss shipping cod charges send e mail call 303 224 \( home \) 303 491 \( school \) davis longs lance colostate edu
donald mackie donald mackie med umich edu subject harsh environments \( etc etc \) organization um anesthesiology lines 24 distribution world nntp posting host 141 214 86 38 x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d9 x xxdate mon , 26 apr 93 11 41 41 gmt article 1993apr26 8618 leland stanford edu brett glass , glass leland stanford edu writes posting reminded long standing question 've pay consider underwater camera pictures taken land harsh environments \( e g rain , snow , heat , cold , mud , dust \) \? lenses , etc tuned refractive index water \? nikon since 1988 unfortunately longer made p sealed resist water depth 12 feet really underwater camera great wet dusty conditions takes aa batteries \( hooray \) solid , heavy feel old style taken abuse able give includes lot water \( rain , river sea \) , desert beach sand well used weapon mugger shouting swinging camera strap n't scare mugger away , hitting flying camera , never without camera camera current water resistant \( sport touch think name \) model nothing like solid well sealed mackie opinions
magnus acs ohio state edu \( justin \) subject video tapes sale \( adult \) nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 20 following playboy videos sale email interested original tapes \( course \) original boxes video playmate calendar 1991 wet wild ii sexy ii sexy iii prices 15 , 2 25 , 3 35 , 4 45 also bunch magazines \( playboy , , , , club , \) email interested i'm willing sell part collection cheaply justin \( magnus acs ohio state edu \) builders built buildings like write programs , first came along would destroy civilization
magnus acs ohio state edu \( justin \) subject mac software sale ! nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 22 following macintosh software sale email interested , complete descriptions prices negotiable , first offer asking price gets prices include first class , 2 day shipping ! ! ! \( outside u extra \) 20 expert color paint 20 25 25 30 \( accolade version , authorized milton bradley \) one one \( dr j bird \) 15 \( original version , 68000 machines \) 25 \( adult game \) strip poker 25 \( adult game \) justin \( magnus acs ohio state edu \) builders built buildings like write programs , first came along would destroy civilization
longs lance colostate edu \( jeremy davis \) subject ski supplies nntp posting host dark lance colostate edu organization colorado state u engineering college lines 26 following ski equipment sale 120 cm poles 20 \( white \) salomon boots 40 size 320 ladies 8 8 5 womens size shoe two unused soles included 's left ski set bought new hardly used excellent condition ! asking 55 entire package pay shipping cod charges send e mail provide upon request davis longs lance colostate edu
chopin udel edu \( scott harris \) subject new mitsumi mice sale 11 nntp posting host chopin udel edu organization university delaware distribution usa lines 12 9 mice taking space office please buy price 11 cost 2 90 ship usps know mice 2 button high resolution mice acutally quite comfortable , much like new hp ergo mouse hand scott harris chopin udel edu
jth bach udel edu \( jay thomas hayes \) subject turbo games forsale nntp posting host bach udel edu organization university delaware distribution usa lines 40 revised list following turbo 16 games sale cases instructions i'm asking 10 piece games 3 h \( pay 3 first game \) please email replies jth bach udel edu alien crush world class baseball keith courage legendary axe legendary axe ii ninja spirit tiger road power golf world sports competition space silent cyber core final lap twin devil 's crush keith courage crush victory run blazing following tg 16 cd rom games forsale i'm asking 20 3 h first game 's book ii \( cd \) 20 final zone ii \( cd \) iii \( cd \) 's iii wanderers 's \( cd \) dragon slayer \( cd \) r cosmic fantasy 2 \( cd \)
bereson ide com \( alex bereson \) subject united nations folders cheap ! ! ! originator bereson organization interactive development environments , sf lines 42 official united nations folders contains stamps issued year along descriptive information regarding issue stamps mint never retail \( catalog \) prices listed leading united nations dealer , mike stamps issued use u n offices new york geneva switzerland price take 50 current retail price folder take 10 folders take 60 total take 32 folders take 65 total many cases folders priced face value stamps , particularly geneva ones year new york geneva 1963 9 75 1964 4 50 1965 5 95 1966 2 75 1967 2 75 1968 5 95 1969 2 45 7 50 1970 2 75 8 95 1971 2 75 5 50 1972 3 75 6 35 1973 2 75 4 95 1974 3 75 5 75 1975 3 45 6 75 1976 7 45 7 35 1977 3 50 5 45 1978 4 50 5 35 1979 4 15 5 25 1980 4 25 4 75 1981 4 85 4 50 shipping add 25 cents per folder cover actual first class shipping cost foreign orders , charge actual shipping cost \( airmail \) , let know many folders want thanks !
jth bach udel edu \( jay thomas hayes \) subject snes games forsale nntp posting host bach udel edu organization university delaware distribution usa lines 17 following snes games forsale ones instructions ones instructions romance three kingdoms ii 25 15 legend link past 10 soul blazer 10 please reply e mail jth bach udel edu ask 3 h one game , buy one still need 3 thanks , jay
jth bach udel edu \( jay thomas hayes \) subject laser discs forsale nntp posting host bach udel edu organization university delaware distribution usa lines 17 following laser discs forsale original covers excellent condition , 've watched many times ca n't see watching i'm asking 20 per disc terminator road warrior hook ghost cop repo man stone lost boys dark man prince thieves total recall ask 3 h first laser disc , buy one 3 cover
jth bach udel edu \( jay thomas hayes \) subject radar detector forsale nntp posting host bach udel edu organization university delaware distribution usa lines 7 uniden clip sized radar detector x , k , ka band forsale city highway audio mute options comes cigarette lighter attachment i'm asking 50 please e mail replies jth bach udel edu thanks , jay
cleveland freenet edu \( john \) subject hot shots '93 \( adult \) cards sale organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 43 reply cleveland freenet edu \( john \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu recently got case hot shots '93 cards unfortunately planned keeping sort got stuck case \( i'm going mention names , though \) , trying sell \( minus set \) interest set , box , singles , please let know set 250 cards card features great looking woman various stages dress nude , semi nude , , dressed 99 percent gorgeous , feel 4 subsets girl , girl , girls 1 9 promo cards 251 259 \( also numbered 1 9 9 9 \) emperor 's stars 269 277 stripping 260 268 also , supposed getting soon well oh , lastly , error cards cards originally intended used card 1 , company changed mind none cards easy get anyway , interest cards , please drop line , eager sell bunch oh , interested , also 1 set hot shots '92 left , 2 sets california dreaming cards well lastly , promo cards cards mentioned , well lot , though john cleveland freenet edu john freenet cleveland edu
bm shadow columbia edu \( blair macintyre \) subject sharp sale reply blair macintyre bm cs columbia edu organization columbia university distribution misc lines 11 'd like sell i'm finished , n't nearly many miss , 'd like put money toward laptop asking 200 bought last christmas 's great shape includes \( added bonus ! \) nice , padded leather carrying case blair macintyre bm cs columbia edu cs department , columbia university drive , kill movie
jth bach udel edu \( jay thomas hayes \) subject ibm hardware forsale nntp posting host bach udel edu usa organization university delaware lines 13 following ibm hardware forsale ati great card , supports 1024x768 256 colors , 800x600 32k colors , 640x480 16 million colors found also speed windows considerably i'm asking 100 b card also 2 2400 baud modems docs n't original boxes work fine 'd like get 25 40 please e mail replies jth bach udel edu thanks , jay
coutsoft cheshire oxy edu \( michael coutsoftides \) subject emu sampler sale organization occidental college , los angeles , ca 90041 usa lines 12 emu ii sampler w 16 bit stereo sampling 3 stereo inputs , 6 outs internal sequencer 32 voice 170 meg internal hd stock ram \( 2 meg think \) perfect condition 5 months old 1600 obo
coutsoft cheshire oxy edu \( michael coutsoftides \) subject sample cd 's sale organization occidental college , los angeles , ca 90041 usa lines 23 've got 2 sets sample cd 's sale set one \( 's \) geared towards house techno pop rap 1st cd drum loops drum sounds 1500 second contains analog , , bass loops , , vox loops much much second set variety different sounds new age rock etc kind sampler cd \( pardon pun \) never used supply list categories sounds someone seriously interested 'd like 130 three new michael mail info
coutsoft cheshire oxy edu \( michael coutsoftides \) subject 386dx 20mhz motherboard sale organization occidental college , los angeles , ca 90041 usa lines 1
jth bach udel edu \( jay thomas hayes \) subject lotus 1 2 3 forsale nntp posting host bach udel edu organization university delaware distribution usa lines 6 extra copy lotus 1 2 3 ver 3 4 dos 'd like get 100 please reply e mail jth bach udel edu thanks , jay
coutsoft cheshire oxy edu \( michael coutsoftides \) subject 386dx 20mhz motherboard sale organization occidental college , los angeles , ca 90041 usa lines 8 hate posts 386dx 20mhz mb w 4meg 60ns ram make offer michael
car gandalf maine edu \( reynolds \) subject sale furniture organization university maine department computer science lines 22 keywords items bought august 1992 like new interested following , please send e mail main frame car gandalf queen size box spring mattress 200 queen size pine 35 sofa slate blue three pillows 6 foot seating area 200 4 drawer chest 20 3 drawer chest 20 small kitchen table four chairs 70 thanks car
wgs1 ra msstate edu \( walter g seefeld \) subject syquest drive cartridges lower price nntp posting host ra msstate edu organization mississippi state university distribution na lines 41 take 375 whole package original post follows article misc forsale newsgroups misc forsale , misc forsale computers wgs1 isis msstate edu \( walter g seefeld \) subject syquest internal 44 drive 8 cartridges sale trade summary trade 350mb 300mb ide , sell 450 organization mississippi state university distribution na date tue , 20 apr 1993 18 48 06 gmt drive less one year old cartridges bought since excellent condition still warranty due change system use , need large , contiguous drive offer includes internal drive scsi adapter card cables original documentation software original packaging 8 cartridges 350mb \( bad sectors defects \) installation breeze 386 clone trade something near 300mb ide , sell 450 also consider trading 4 30 pin simms 70ns walter g seefeld dawn 's early light , 940 n jackson st 1a know right , starkville , ms 39759 're going reap sown n5qxr jackson brown walter g seefeld dawn 's early light , 940 n jackson st 1a know right , starkville , ms 39759 're going reap sown n5qxr jackson brown
jth bach udel edu \( jay thomas hayes \) subject pc games forsale nntp posting host bach udel edu organization university delaware distribution usa lines 33 following pc games forsale cyber empire \( vga 3 5 disks \) 15 prophecy shadow \( vga 3 5 \) 15 prince persia \( vga 5 25 \) 15 \( vga 3 5 \) 10 global conquest \( ega 5 25 \) 10 kings quest v \( vga 5 25 \) 10 kings quest iv \( vga 5 25 \) 10 ancient art war sea \( ega 3 5 \) 10 mech warrior \( vga 5 25 3 5 \) 10 champions \( ega 5 25 \) 10 test drive iii \( vga 3 5 \) 15 balance power \( ega 5 25 \) 10 leisure suit larry land lounge \( vga 3 5 5 25 \) 10 sentinel world \( ega 5 25 \) 10 bard 's tale \( ega 5 25 \) 10 skyfox ii \( ega 5 25 \) 10 bard 's tale ii \( ega 5 25 \) 10 modem wars \( vga 5 25 \) 10 \( ega 5 25 \) 10 stunt track racer \( ega 5 25 \) 10 games original boxes instructions , manuals copy protection devices please respond e mail jth bach udel edu thanks , jay
shapiro sofbas enet dec com \( steve shapiro \) subject borland c 3 1 w app forsale nntp posting host organisation sks computer consulting , inc organization digital equipment corporation marlboro , lines 49 howdy ! recently converted microsoft visual c longer want borland c 3 1 w application frameworks product version 6 months old manuals , disks \( 5 25 \) , etc licensed transfer license purchaser accepted terms borland license agreement also copy books developing windows applications borland c 3 , james , sams \( 39 95 \) using borland c 3 2nd ed , mark lee atkinson , que \( 29 95 \) 'd like sell highest bidder conditions listed 'll ship c anywhere u via choice \( provided local \) , pay cod charges \( pay shipping \) list price product 750 seen advertised low 500 accept best offer 375 \( plus shipping described \) 1 2 list price , plus , i'm tossing 2 books listed \( 70 value \) hold bidding open weekend close sometime evening 4 26 93 please reply via email serious offers please apply , consider anything trade , offers less 375 consider fair price regards , steve steve shapiro views opinions expressed sks computer consulting , inc offered steve shapiro z1 fidonet org bbs \( 508 \) 664
wgs1 ra msstate edu \( walter g seefeld \) subject cd 's sale nntp posting host ra msstate edu organization mississippi state university distribution na lines 36 following cd 's sale 6 \( 5 3 \) except special price noted melissa never enough o'connor want chicago 19 peter cetera one story eric unplugged \( cd single 3 \) beverly craven beverly craven bobby simple pleasures gold platinum \( double set 10 \) electric light greatest hits linda greatest hits buster movie pretty woman movie candy dare dream chuck feels good bobby chick play dream phil beethoven 's ninth mehta n phil wagner ring \( highlights \) dallas ravel bolero , , mason williams classical gas levi atlanta wilhelm beethoven piano 8 , 14 , 15 excellent condition email details walter g seefeld dawn 's early light , 940 n jackson st 1a know right , starkville , ms 39759 're going reap sown n5qxr jackson brown
jean andrews andrew cmu edu subject wanted large dog cage organization graduate school industrial , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 3 nntp posting host po2 andrew cmu edu need large dog cage , kind use dog around adopted 11 month old non pittsburgh area number 412 268
viktor olesov aiva lt \( viktor olesov \) subject human alpha sale distribution world organization olesov reply viktor olesov aiva lt lines 21 dear ! commercial firm interested new partners establishing business contacts present may offer following human alpha dried state purity less 96 , 6 price 980 per 1 mg every month deliveries quantity 50 100 mg information please contact e mail internet viktor olesov aiva lt fax \( 3702 \) 223 537 phone \( 3702 \) 757 533 viktor olesov , e mail internet viktor olesov aiva lt , tel \( \) 355 441
mark andrew cmu edu subject ti electronic organizer model organization masters student , materials science engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 14 nntp posting host po3 andrew cmu edu sorry posted wrong place , n't sure go model 64k memory , storage telephone numbers , addresses , memos , schedule , calendar , calculator password protection , 6 line display , full keyboard , 32 characters per line search data storage areas keywords , transmit receive entries via ibm compatible computers optional interface kit uses 2 aaa batteries , 1 lithium battery backup also world time , sound , still 1 year service merchandise warranty left , manual sells new 90 , asking 65 \( shipping included \) e mail andrew cmu edu
organization university maine system erik maine maine edu subject 486 slc notebook deal lines 21 forsale 486 25 slc notebook small includes following cyrix 486 25mhz proc \( fast \) midwest micro elite series 60 meg hard drive \( 120 w stacker \) 1 3 drive 1 serial , 1 parallel 2 megs ram \( upgradable 8 megs \) 64 shades grey vga built trackball fast machine loaded windows , stacker dos 5 0 , carrying case , power supply bought 3 months ago 1500 00 realized n't need much power notebook asking 1300 00 first person 1150 00 takes maine maine edu erik
smb col hp com \( sam bauer \) subject sale snes star fox , home alone ii organization hp colorado springs division lines 36 nntp posting host col hp com snes games sale home alone 2 35 star fox 42 trade good condition copy \( must box docs \) one following \( snes \) prince persia gods batman returns super prices include shipping games excellent condition unless otherwise stated us buyers please games shipped inside box packing priority usps games include original materials including box , manual , etc first offering asking price guarenteed get game asking questions get priority offer buy game lower offers may considered assuming offers asking price made sam bauer hewlett packard co , \( 719 \) 531 network test division smb col hp com colorado springs , co
goldberg oasys dt navy mil \( mark goldberg \) subject camera bags sale new list , dimensions reply goldberg oasys dt navy mil \( mark goldberg \) distribution usa organization naval surface warfare center , annapolis , md lines 46 reposting 'cause two bags door , took dimensions 1 5 \( important camcorder users \) 1 large padded bag \( maker unknown \) orange exterior , black straps interior five outside pockets plus lid compartment lid internal held whole 2 1 4 system , metz flash , etc main chamber \( lid pockets \) 18 5 w x 9 h x 7 strong bag , good medium format users 2 small nikon shoulder bag sorry sold shipped 3 small nikon belt pouch like 2 similar design us army ammo pouch belt clips , etc holds flash small zoom \( 35 70 \) fixed lens , lens cleaner , etc 5 4 belt pouch , black sorry sold shipped 5 coast camera bag tan brown strap main front pocket hold af slr small zoom plus flash , film , etc 10 5 h x 9 5 h x 4 5 plus 10 5 x 6 5 x 1 5 front pouch looks like gore tex n't think really 15 terms payment advance money order bank check , cash buyer pays shipping 1 go ups others , send adequate self addressed mailing envelope \( padded recommended \) enough postage please contact email interested \) \) \) everyone 's entitled opinion \) goldberg oasys dt navy mil imagination important knowledge albert einstein \) \) \) everyone 's entitled opinion \) goldberg oasys dt navy mil imagination important knowledge albert einstein
jth bach udel edu \( jay thomas hayes \) subject turbo , turbo cd forsale nntp posting host bach udel edu organization university delaware distribution usa lines 7 turbo 16 game system add cd rom system forsale want sell turbo , turbo cd , turbo pad , 's book ii \( cd \) 100 'll split h charges please reply e mail jth bach udel edu thanks , jay
amaranth vela acs oakland edu \( paul amaranth \) subject tapes serial cables organization oakland university , rochester mi lines 27 distribution usa nntp posting host vela acs oakland edu 's basement cleaning time stuff got go two boxes 9 track tapes , around 20 tapes box free anyone wants come pick 've seen little use anyone wants bad enough ship , 're cost shipping , cod charge 10 fee lot serial cables kinds , ribbon , shielded , long , short , f whatever want appear work well pc serial ports , tell want 'll best match 1 50 ea 10 10 shipping included 20 \( want pay 5 cod charge 1 50 cable \? go buy cable local computer store instead , 'll cheaper \) believe cables removed service computer center appear good condition ones used worked well also 15 ups batteries needs minor repair , probably logic board weighs 280 pounds 36 inches high think used run prime system best offer 75 , need come pick use run house solar panels consider reasonable offers stuff paul amaranth manager user services office \( 313 \) 370 \( also voicemail \) \( internet \) amaranth vela acs oakland edu space \( bitnet \) amaranth oakland temporarily \( uucp \) ! uunet ! umich ! vela ! amaranth empty
ucs orst edu \( john kaufman \) subject wanted old 70 's record article gaia distribution usa organization university computing services osu lines 15 nntp posting host ucs orst edu i'm looking old album cassette tape group sanford townsend name album distant \( think \) album came somewhere around 1975 76 , believe first album produced kenny jim messina broke happen album willing part , great n't want part , willing copy onto cassette 'd love thanks jk ucs orst edu
jonathan comp lancs ac uk \( mr j j trevor \) subject exchange software \? organization department computing lancaster university , uk lines 15 anyone would like get rid software please get touch ive got loads snes genesis megadrive software id like trade even partially \( e ill also pay \) let know interested cheers jonathan phone 44 524 address department computing ' ' fax 44 524 lancaster university e mail jonathan comp lancs ac uk lancaster , lancs , u k
psu edu \( pen li \) subject 35mm slide projectors sale organization penn state engineering computer lab lines 16 distribution usa nntp posting host psu edu x news reader vms news 1 24 35mm slide projectors sale regardless first post new light bulb , lens , remote controller working condition 1 kodak 800 non af 60 2 kodak autofocus 85 3 singer ii , w built lens , casette player non af 40 4 singer sp , w built lens , casette player non af 45
spencer world std com \( spencer marks \) subject two america west tickets sale organization world public access unix , brookline , distribution na lines 11 america west airline tickets sale two 300 vouchers america west airlines , used toward purchase tickets wherever airline goes restrictions blackout times 're legally transferable used anytime july 1 asking 250 please respond email voice cheryl com \( person selling tickets \) spencer world std com \( person posting article \) call cheryl 508 653 , x 301
scotts math orst edu \( scott \) subject forsale mag mx15f 1280x1024 article gaia distribution world organization oregon state university math department lines 7 nntp posting host math orst edu mag mx15f fantastic 15 monitor display 1280x1024 noninterlaced \( ! \) 26 mm dot pitch looking large crystal clear super vga monitor 430 call scott \( 503 \) 757 email scotts math orst edu
goldsman cc gatech edu \( michael g goldsman \) subject 3 high end car amplifiers sale reply goldsman cc gatech edu \( michael g goldsman \) organization college computing , georgia institute technology lines 45 posted friend please reply car amplifiers sale 3 high end car amplifiers sale \( 2 \) old style 150 's great amps , 've never minute 's trouble either 've running high end quite time \( front rear \) pleased setup , 've also run low end , perform quite well situation well i'm trying sell i'm considering upgrading 650 already power 300 , 've always liked way 650 300 combo worked cars i'm asking 200 00 piece , list bought 375 00 're interested , 'd willing come price little bit \( 1 \) precision power 2150 great utility amplifier rated , looks brand new shroud , works great great low end amp 's high power rating 2 channels , however , 've also running front back high end well i'm asking 425 00 amp , feel free make offer please direct questions replies hacker krusty gtri gatech edu chase hacker fortune presents gifts chase cc gatech edu according book dcd prism gatech edu hacker krusty gtri gatech edu mike goldsman ga tech station , atlanta , georgia 30332 \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) pgp key available upon request say brainwashing
ss uhura cc rochester edu \( \) subject cd 's sale nntp posting host uhura cc rochester edu organization university rochester rochester , new york distribution usa lines 21 following cd 's 'd like sell gross misconduct metal giants \( early metal compilation including , mountain , blue oyster cult , priest , etc \) metal church blessings disguise \( excellent \) slayer hell among living power pain dream theater images words \( pull \) exodus fabulous disaster \( heavy \) death angel ultra violence \( hard find \) cd 's excellent condition \( scratches skips \) checking several similar articles , seems going rate 8 hence cd 's 8 00 postage paid please e mail interested , rarely read groups 'll ship asap receiving cash , check money order e mail snail mail address ss uhura cc rochester edu rochester , ny
terry walter outlan ersys edmonton ab ca \( terry walter \) subject vesa reply terry walter outlan ersys edmonton ab ca \( terry walter \) distribution world organization bbs lines 9 looking vesa local bus card control ide drives , floppies , game port , parallel port , serial ports serial ports must sockets uarts non chipset generic boards message posted outlan ersys edmonton ab ca 403 478 hst v 32bis try , 'll like !
aol com subject put printed book disk organization utexas mail news gateway lines 6 nntp posting host cs utexas edu yes , put book disk fast accurate also put printed articles , thesis , term papers , etc disk interested \? reply details
jsh nswses navy mil \( jeffrey , , \) subject reply jsh nswses navy mil organization sun microsystems , inc lines 10 medium format camera sale includes 2 lenses , 1 film back , view finder 2 200 00 firm contact via e mail info live ride , ride live jsh nswses navy mil statements made mine alone navy 's far know
02106 ravel udel edu \( samuel ross \) subject books sale cheap ! ! ! ! nntp posting host ravel udel edu organization university delaware distribution usa lines 25 someone please buy books ! ! ! ! ! asking much ! ! ! ! ! ! make offer probably take ! ! ! ! ! writing good software fortran , graham smith holt handbook kirszner mandell \( copyright 1986 \) 720 page writing guide general chemistry principles modern applications , r petrucci , fourth edition big book ! good condition ! solutions manual chemistry book paperback study guide chemistry book paperback send offers via email 02106 chopin udel edu sam 02106 chopin udel edu
02106 ravel udel edu \( samuel ross \) subject sams comic sale ! ! ! nntp posting host ravel udel edu organization university delaware distribution usa lines 363 ok instead holding auction , decided compute prices comic \( many suggestions \) reasonable prices give \( negotiable \) would like purchase comic \( group \) , simply email title issue 's want price issue shown beside comic first come , first served ! ! ! bidding meet price reached email address 02106 chopin udel edu 02106 ravel udel edu 02106 bach udel edu 02106 brahms udel edu haggling price ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! lots comics 1 , 2 , 3 look list ! ! ! ! ! shipping 2 1 3 comics 3 , price determined volume purchase \( may use big heavy box large orders costs mail \) bought comics , thanks ! ! ! comics near mint unless otherwise noted \( books graded mile high comics comic professional collectors , ! \) list reserved means made deal person waiting check arrive reserved comics good sold \( sorry ! \) incredible hulk 156 \( vs another hulk \) 3 195 2 196 2 246 \( vs captain marvel \) 1 248 1 249 1 250 \( double size issue vs silver surfer \) 5 255 \( vs thor \) 1 279 1 300 2 312 2 313 1 316 \( vs bi coastal avengers \) 1 347 1 reserved 348 1 350 \( vs thing \) 2 354 1 358 1 360 1 362 \( vs werewolf night \) 2 364 1 365 1 366 1 reserved 379 \( 1 copy \) 5 punisher 50 1 57 2 punisher war journal 29 \( ghost rider \) 2 30 \( ghost rider \) 2 punisher armory 1 4 2 2 original ghost rider rides \( reprint \) 1 1 ghost rider \( old series \) 37 3 reserved 43 \( vs johnny blaze \) 3 reserved 77 \( 2 copies , origin gr dream \) 4 ghost rider \( new series \) 15 \( 1st print , green glow dark cover , 1 copy \) 5 15 \( 2nd print , gold cover w glow cover \) 3 web spiderman 56 \( 2 copies \) 2 60 3 69 \( vs hulk , 1 copy left ! ! ! \) 2 70 \( , 1 copy left ! ! ! \) 2 71 1 72 1 78 1 deadly foes spiderman 1 \( 2 copies \) 2 2 2 3 2 amazing spiderman vs dr octopus \( special issue \) 2 amazing spiderman 350 \( vs dr doom , 1 copy left ! ! ! \) 2 spiderman \( 1990 \) 1 \( silver , bagged \) 4 6 3 7 3 8 \( 2 copies \) 2 9 \( w wolverine , 1 copy left ! ! ! \) 2 10 2 11 1 13 5 16 1 enemy ace special 1 2 new warriors 1 \( gold cover \) 2 8 4 superman man steel 1 2 superman \( new \) 53 \( 2 copies \) 1 55 1 56 1 adventures superman 479 1 annual 3 1 superman annual 3 \( armegedon 2001 tie \) 1 action comics 666 1 avengers west coast 69 \( vs us agent \) 1 batman 465 \( robin returns \) 2 466 1 467 1 annual 15 \( armegedon 2001 tie \) 3 captain america 230 \( vs hulk \) 2 257 \( vs hulk \) 1 armegedon 2001 1 4 2 2 1 2 infinity gauntlet 1 6 4 3 5 3 double dragon 1 1 deathlok \( series \) 2 1 transformers 80 \( last issue \) 2 wonder man 1 1 2 1 flaming carrot 25 \( w ninja turtles \) 2 comet 1 1 legend shield 1 1 justice society america 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 official movie mag turtles ii movie \( sealed w comic \) 5 robin 1 \( 1 copies w poster \) 3 1 \( 3rd print \) 1 5 \( 6 copies \) 1 guardians galaxy 1 6 2 3 3 2 4 2 5 2 6 2 7 2 8 2 9 \( 2 copies \) 3 10 2 11 2 12 1 13 3 14 3 15 1 16 1 17 1 18 \( 2 copies \) 2 superman vs amazing spiderman \( oversized issue 70 's \) 7 reserved darkhawk 1 \( 3 copies \) 8 2 \( 2 copies \) 6 3 5 4 4 5 4 6 3 7 2 8 2 9 3 10 1 thor 246 1 428 1 429 \( vs juggernaut \) 2 430 \( w ghost rider \) 1 431 1 432 \( thor vs loki , 2 copies \) 3 433 \( new thor \) 2 annual 16 1 13 1 23 1 25 2 26 1 alpha flight 29 1 51 6 53 6 94 \( vs 4 \) 1 new mutants 22 2 100 \( last issue , 1st look x force , 1st print , 2 copies \) 5 100 \( 2nd print , gold cover \) 4 flash \( new \) 43 1 48 1 49 1 50 2 51 1 annual 4 1 uncanny x men 191 3 215 2 255 \( 2 copies \) 2 258 6 275 \( 1 copy left 1st print \) 6 275 \( gold 2nd print \) 3 276 3 277 3 278 2 279 2 280 2 281 3 282 4 283 6 defenders 52 \( hulk vs sub mariner \) 2 fantastic four 347 4 348 2 349 \( 3 copies \) 2 wolverine 11 3 reserved 20 2 41 \( w cable , 2 copies \) 6 42 4 43 3 silver surfer \( 1987 \) 1 6 2 3 3 3 4 3 5 2 6 2 8 2 22 2 24 2 32 2 49 2 50 \( foil cover , 1 copy left ! ! \) 6 51 2 52 2 53 1 54 1 55 1 56 1 58 2 59 2 avengers 326 3 328 \( origin rage \) 3 x factor 40 6 67 3 68 6 71 3 73 1 green lantern \( 1990 \) 3 2 9 \( 2 copies \) 1 10 1 11 1 12 1 toxic avenger 1 \( 3 copies \) 1 2 1 sleepwalker 1 \( 3 copies \) 2 3 1 7 1 kool aid man 1 \( sealed white bag , 2 copies \) 2 x force 1 \( bagged w cable card \) 4 1 \( bagged w shatterstar card \) 3 2 2 3 1 4 1 nfl 1 1 dr strange 31 1 annual 2 \( 2nd print , armegedon 2001 tie \) 1 hawk dove annual 2 \( armegedon 2001 tie \) 1 justice league america annual 5 \( armegedon 2001 tie \) 1 send comments 02106 chopin udel edu thanks sam \( ex comic book collector \) college electrical engineering , university delaware
alin nyx cs du edu \( ailin lin \) subject cheap 386 motherboard organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept lines 7 novell motherboard cpu , 4 megs memory ports 160 shipping firm let know interested ailin 803 654 8817
art compu com \( art lekoff \) subject microwave oven forsale keywords another available organization art 's house lines 20 art 1 compu com \( art lekoff \) writes first 50 00 grabs ! 's sears 700 watt unit fyi art unit sold thank replies ! another oven available still interested mother decided sell spare price , 50 00 first taker 's strictly microwave , , equally good condition size 's , approximately 4 5 cubic feet let know ! art art lekoff internet art compu com lisa turn compu erve 2024 compuserve com , pa bell 215 757
magnus acs ohio state edu \( roy sutton \) subject forsale fast star printer extras 55 nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university distribution usa lines 11 title says would like sell star 9 pin printer narrow colum dot matrix , supports parallel serial interfacing , prints 200 characters per second , 16k buffer , dependable drop mail interested 55 plus shipping get printer , 6 extra ribbons , parallel connection cable , power cord , manual , one sheet paper \( smile \) roy
dino fiabane pics twwells com \( dino fiabane \) subject cordless phone reply dino fiabane pics twwells com \( dino fiabane \) organization pics online ! multiuser system 609 753 2540 lines 23 uniden cordless phone model xe 300 perfect working condition , base station missing antenna \( antenna mount intact \) 25 , shipping included prepaid reply dino fiabane pics com mail bounce sent address instead , please reply via private e mail pics ! dino fiabane twwells com \( since home bbs handle personal messages e mail time , replies also arrive via e mail instead way regular newsgroup \) dino fiabane , 150 weston drive , cherry hill , nj phone \( 609 \) 424 slmr 2 1a reply pics ! dino fiabane twwells com via e mail pics online multiuser system \( 609 \) 753 2540 hst 609 753 1549 \( v32 \) massive file collection 45 , 000 files online 250 newsgroups
dino fiabane pics twwells com \( dino fiabane \) subject 9600 v 32 internal modem reply dino fiabane pics twwells com \( dino fiabane \) organization pics online ! multiuser system 609 753 2540 lines 35 gvc technologies v 32 modem 9600 4800 2400 1200 300 bps operation automatic speed selection ccitt v 32 v 22bis v 22 v 21 full duplex operation asynchronous operation auto answer auto dial automatically switch data voice transmission supports com port 1 4 , irq 2 5 analog digital remote digital loopback test modes communication crosstalk software manual included modem manual warranty registration card included \( optional ccitt v 42bis v 42 mnp 2 5 module , providing error correction data compression increase throughput 38 , 400 bps , available directly manufacturer \) mint condition 125 reply dino fiabane pics com mail bounce sent address instead , please reply via private e mail pics ! dino fiabane twwells com \( since home bbs handle personal messages e mail time , replies also arrive via e mail instead way regular newsgroup \) dino fiabane , 150 weston drive , cherry hill , nj phone \( 609 \) 424 slmr 2 1a reply pics ! dino fiabane twwells com via e mail pics online multiuser system \( 609 \) 753 2540 hst 609 753 1549 \( v32 \) massive file collection 45 , 000 files online 250 newsgroups
unixhub slac stanford edu \( jonathan wong \) subject wanted ibm clone 486 better organization stanford linear accelerator center distribution usa lines 18 friend mine market 486 system 8 ram 170 hd svga monitor card 5 1 4 3 1 2 fd 200 w ps one sale email forward thanks , jonathan unixhub slac stanford edu
chein eng auburn edu \( \) subject 12 35 new opened softwares games nntp posting host wilbur eng auburn edu organization auburn university engineering distribution usa lines 48 following softwares sale new items \( never opened \) 1 lucid 3 , three dimensional spreadsheet pull menus , line help , 8 pages notes behind every cell dynamic detail , 3 capability , compatible lotus 1 2 3 , etc 15 including shipping \( manual , 5 25 disks \) 2 turbo pascal express 250 ready run assembly language routines make turbo pascal faster , powerful , easier use book 2 5 25 disks 15 \( including shipping \) 3 dr halo iii much icon driven paint program 's complete page composition presentation graphics package automatic aspect ratio correction wysiwyg printing true color grey scale output partial screen prints 3 5 25 disks manual 12 \( including shipping \) 4 key form designer plus software making professional business forms 3 5 disks manual 25 plus shipping obo like new items \( package opened registered \) 1 ii advanced tactical fighter f 23 well f 14 , f 16 , f 18 , f 22 3 25 disks manuals 30 plus shipping obo 2 f stealth fighter 2 0 definitive simulation america 's radar elusive jet sensational sound , nine world 's hot spots cuba , north korea , kuwaiti theatre operations , central europe , north cape , libya , persian f , vietnam middle east awesome missions challenge 5 25 disks manual 35 plus shipping obo 3 grammatik iv 20 plus shipping 4 quattro pro 1 0 make offer 5 gem chart , graphics , word , publisher , v 3 0 make offer items ibm compatible systems
bitzm columbia dsu edu \( michael bitz \) subject dos 4 01 \( 5 25 3 5 \) sale cheap ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! lines 19 organization dakota state university lines 19 sale dos 4 01 , original manuals , box , either 5 25 3 5 disks \( full version , oem \) 15 00 \( including shipping charges \) please respond ! bitzm columbia dsu edu mike bitz internet bitzm columbia dsu edu research development bitzm dsuvax dsu edu dakota state university bitnet s93020 sdnet bitnet
bitzm columbia dsu edu \( michael bitz \) subject kinds computer items sale ! ! ! lines 27 organization dakota state university lines 27 sale \( 1 \) cga card road track 's grand prix \( 3 5 disks \) dos 4 01 packard bell 39 dot pitch vga color monitor 256k 2 max vga card please make offers merchandise lose \? go ahead make offer ! thanks email bitzm columbia dsu edu mike bitz internet bitzm columbia dsu edu research development bitzm dsuvax dsu edu dakota state university bitnet s93020 sdnet bitnet
cbnewsj cb att com \( sandra l denton \) subject forsale pump radar organization distribution usa keywords car rack , pump , car amp , radar lines 17 i'm selling assortment goods ! ! 're excellent shape \( amp detector rarely used \) rack locks vw gti jetta \( \) 75 floor bike pump \( pink \) 20 uniden radar detector \( x k bands , orig 134 \) 75 60w car amp \( orig 150 \) 75 shipping included prices interested \? please respond email \( login cbnewsj cb att com \) phone \( 201 \) 386 office thanks ! sandy
chem upenn edu \( r \) subject datsun car sale distribution pa organization university pennsylvania lines 14 nntp posting host chem upenn edu '81 datsun 210 forsale 's blue datsun two doors \( three , since 's hatchback \) 69 , 900 miles automatic good condition \( hate sell , phila insurance outrageous also n't need car right \) asking 800 bo call ron 215 222 email chem upenn edu
baden sys6626 bison mb ca \( baden de bari \) subject sega 3 glasses wanted ! ! ! organization system 6626 bbs , winnipeg manitoba canada lines 17 anyone pair sega 3 glasses 're willing part \? know anywhere acquire pair , n't around ! ! ! thanks inspiration comes baden sys6626 bison mb ca \( \) baden inqmind bison mb ca seek baden de bari unknown
tatsuya math byu edu \( tatsuya kawasaki \) subject silver sale organization brigham young university lines 15 nntp posting host math byu edu italian made silver sale size 20 , 24 26 \( \? \) low 2 00 shipping \( less \) rope design weight around 9 grams 20 9 00 rope weight around 25 gram 20 17 00 left please respond asap tatsuya
rad com subject sq 80 cross wave synthesizer sale originator rob snoopy msc cornell edu organization order lines 71 sq 80 cross wave synthesizer sq 80 sale sq 80 powerful performance oriented synth limited board sequencer bought large seems analog synth sounds well sounds considerably digital list features extracted owner 's manual eight voice poly synthesizer , capable playing eight different sounds , dynamic stereo panning voice voice section employing cross wave synthesis combine different attack sustain wave segments create complex , dynamic sounds 75 sampled waves \( includes \) serve sound source dynamic voice allocation sequencer track midi channel access eight voices full featured midi controller keyboard capable sending eight midi program volume changes keyboard velocity sensitive , transmits receives velocity powerful matrix modulation scheme allows wide range modulation sources 3 5 floppy disk drive writes reads ordinary ds dd disks allows fast reliable storage 600 sequences sound patches single floppy disk also ram cart slot patches compatible 1 ram carts dumps floppy disk capable midi device 80 character fluorescent display user friendly page driven programming scheme provides fairly humane user interface stereo line outs , stereo headphone jack private listening sound programs sequences compatible 1 sounds sequences created 1 played sq 80 sq 80 main midi controller studio quite performed role , also heavily used sound source time sq 80 seems designed role mind , works well software sequencer \( \) mode synthesis point view , machine hybrid uses short samples \( 75 \) sources , waves processed sophisticated dca arrangement sq 80 capable great things 4 pole analog filter simply put , makes fabulous analog synth sounds unlike good analog , thorough midi implementation works well midi sequencer really like thing capable making wide range sounds sq 80 5 years old \( mfg date 1 21 88 \) 8 track sequencer , like board , pain use avoided reason sale selling sq 80 recently joined forces another individual boston , keyboards space put recommend someone getting started sequencing needs powerful economical master keyboard pricing terms paid 1300 00 synth years ago willing accept 650 00 \( average r asking price 733 00 \) include bunch patches sq 80 floppy disks buyer synth , well original sq 80 owner 's manual price asking 650 00 \( everything \) shipping split shipping \( ups surface cod \) anywhere lower 48 states craig voice systems e mail rad com 119 russell street phone \( 508 \) 486 ,
ritvax isc rit edu subject cd 's sale nntp posting host vaxa isc rit edu reply ritvax isc rit edu organization rochester institute technology distribution usa im student r please reply saying contact ed
georgian tigger jvnc net \( ops mgr \) subject exabyte 8500 8mm 5g tape drive sale originator ens tigger jvnc net nntp posting host tigger jvnc net reply chen med columbia edu organization jvncnet lines 24 please reply seller sale exabyte 8500 8mm 5g tape drive writes 5g per 8mm data grade tape uncompressed latest eeprom revs fully compatible sun machines black faceplate seen little use \( due fact 8mm tapes \) decided money valuable quick convenient backups list 00 catalog 00 price 1900 00 shipping extra please email responses lee polarsun rna rockefeller edu
georgian tigger jvnc net \( ops mgr \) subject x terminal 21 1280x1024 mono forsale originator ens tigger jvnc net nntp posting host tigger jvnc net reply lee polarsun rna rockefeller edu organization jvncnet lines 22 sale 21 x terminal monitor adjustable landscape portrait orientation 1280x1024 landscape resolution portrait resolution 21 diagonal screen small footprint rs 232 423 422 support thin thick ethernet connectors vt220 vt100 emulation additional software sun machines provided price 1500 00 shipping extra \( heavy \) send email , offers , flames lee polarsun rna rockefeller edu
andrew cmu edu subject maxtor scsi organization senior , math computer science , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 10 nntp posting host po3 andrew cmu edu maxtor 660 mb scsi drive access time 2 years old external casing 777 andrew cmu edu 412 268
organization university maine system 's , zero maine maine edu subject cdtv , , monitor lines 44 subject cdtv , accessories , monitor bids placed set , including prices repost negotiable , course anticipation arrival new computer system , selling cdtv accessories rush sell n't money , may able get weeks , make bid let know willing sell pieces separately , wait sell accounted \( least cdtv keyboard kit \) sell monitor separately cdtv \( 6 months old mint condition comes documentation , packaging , receipt , etc , mint condition demo disc \) start bidding 375 cdtv keyboard package keyboard , mouse , 3 5 drive \( comes , packaging , receipt etc 6 months old mint turns cdtv full fledged amiga 500 computer ! \) start bidding 125 monitor \( couple years old good condition comes documentation , packaging , receipt find \) start 125 software \( various titles games , demos , etc note cdtv discs software 3 5 disc based \) free package deal please send best bid maine call \( 207 \) 581 ask zero leave message i'm zero z cdtv owner come peace shoot kill ! \( 207 \) 581 owner ncc 42 u heart gold university maine video hobbyist live long n't panic ! ! student star trek tng fan \( mostly harmless \) douglas n adams fan major life , universe , transfer mind scott card fan everything enterprise ship degenerate hitchhikers
goldberg oasys dt navy mil \( mark goldberg \) subject camera bag sale two left reply goldberg oasys dt navy mil \( mark goldberg \) distribution usa organization naval surface warfare center , annapolis , md lines 39 gone except 3 5 go ahead make offer ca n't refuse ! 1 large padded bag sorry , sold , awaiting check 2 small nikon shoulder bag sorry , gone 3 small nikon belt pouch similar army ammo pouch belt clips , etc holds flash small zoom , lens cleaner , etc great extra lens n't want tote shoulder bag think hold small walkman tapes 5 1 postage 4 belt pouch sorry , gone 5 coast camera bag tan , brown strap trim main front pocket , 10 5 5 respectively hold af slr small zoom plus flash even 8mm compact vhs video camcorder ! material looks like gore tex n't think think also hold portable cd player bunch discs , headphones , ac , etc 15 3 postage terms payment advance money order bank check , cash \) \) \) everyone 's entitled opinion \) goldberg oasys dt navy mil imagination important knowledge albert einstein \) \) \) everyone 's entitled opinion \) goldberg oasys dt navy mil imagination important knowledge albert einstein
minh bigwpi wpi edu \( minh pham \) subject dana weick still organization worcester polytechnic institute lines 119 nntp posting host bigwpi wpi edu l k n g f r n w e c k crook deal ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! please help looking dana weick month ago made deal net sell memory , 100 486 66 cpu thought deal great , went sent memory cod 100 suppose send cpu receive cod payment 4 8 93 send message sent cpu 4 16 93 two weeks , n't receive cpu send numerous message asking confirmation cpu ship , address send \( make sure n't get lost mail \) never reply mail finally resorted calling arizona first call n't get throught , got answering machine left number n't reply call next day pick phone asked send cpu said yes , n't know address sent said would check record home call back next day suprise , never called send email messages , never reply \( , deal made , reply every message , got memory , wo n't even reply \) still calling , wo n't pick phone also still emailing , wo n't reply mail one know dana weick , please contact reach dana weick w las phoenix , az \( 602 \) 925 day time business number \( 602 \) 842 evenings home number email address weick master lds az loral com deal weick master lds az loral com wed mar 17 20 09 20 1993 72 pin simms n't hot sellers , pick upgrade market 140 160 quite often best 486dx2 66 100 ok got deal , 'll trade 4 \( simms \) intel 486dx2 66 100 need address , ship via cod 'll pay shipping handling simms arrive , 100 charge part send cpu via cod possible address way , cpu warranty \? great , send simms dana weick w las phoenix , az \( 602 \) 925 \( days \) \( 602 \) 842 \( evenings \) would prefer us mail , 2nd day priority \( costs 2 90 \) cpu brand new , install correctly \( meaning n't plug backwards bend pins \) 'll warranty 6 months thanks 4 8 send said got cod payment asked cpu sent yet cpu sent yet \? replied 4 9 glad cod payment got ok , cpu sent keep eyes careful install , careful static discharge , bending pins insertion make absolutely certain plug chip proper orientation chip checked prior shipping cook plugging backwards wo n't real sympathetic ! n't know tell orientation chip installed , guess ! dana weick update call sunday , wife debbie picked phone said busy kids , would call back 10 half house went , weick n't called called , phone since post , people mail saying dana weick ripped got something guy years getting away minh pham e mail minh wpi wpi edu worcester polytechnical institute
bitzm columbia dsu edu \( michael bitz \) subject wanted 9 chip 1 megabyte simms \( 60ns \) ! organization dakota state university lines 14 nntp posting host unknown 87 dsu edu market \( 4 \) 1 megabyte simms must 9 chip variety , also must 60 nanoseconds email bitzm columbia dsu edu thanks mike bitz internet bitzm columbia dsu edu research development bitzm dsuvax dsu edu dakota state university bitnet s93020 sdnet bitnet
jupiter com subject snes 1 2 pt 2 keywords snes organization first national bank chicago , chicago il , usa lines 8 1 2 professionally converted play snes asking 60 willing trade snes z bill thoughts , employer 's email jupiter com leave fax \( 312 \) 732 thanks enjoy buffet !
jordan mcauley com \( jordan mcauley \) subject vhs movies must sell moving distribution world organization ed hopper 's bbs berkeley lake , ga 404 446 9462 reply jordan mcauley com \( jordan mcauley \) lines 46 dk subject vhs movies must sell moving n dk koutd hiramb hiram edu n dk newsgroups misc forsale , rec video dk subject vhs movies must sell moving dk message id 1993apr22 1 hiramb hiram edu dk koutd hiramb hiram edu \( douglas kou \) dk date 22 apr 93 09 57 36 0500 dk organization hiram college dk vhs movies sold moving 6 weeks dk idea happend people made dk deal , trying post another message , dk \( n't mean waste valuable time \) dk basic instinct 11 00 dk born forth july 11 00 dk backdraft 11 00 dk presumed innocent 11 00 dk prince tides 11 00 dk dance wolves 11 00 dk prices including shipping get dk 60 00 dk package deals welcome dk make offer dk douglas kou dk hiram college dk koutd hirama hiram edu douglas , hi , 'd like purchase basic instinct 11 notes returned n't know keeps saying address unknown please let know movie still available thank jordan mcauley atlanta info gw com slmr 2 0 ed hopper 's bbs com berkeley lake \( atlanta \) , georgia usr hst 404 446 9462 v 32bis 404 446 home uupcb usenet pc board
cunixb cc columbia edu \( eric \) subject movie plan 9 outer space wanted nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply cunixb cc columbia edu \( eric \) organization , , lines 8 i'm looking copy 's last film anyone copy , please e mail \( also , anyone knows better place post , please tell \) eric cunixb cc columbia edu school \( 212 \) 853 ate thing ever loved ! home \( 401 \) 421 seymour ,
rob uucp \( \) subject unix books distribution na organization lines 157 following books sale good excellent condition make offers rob uucp \( uunet ! ! rob \) robert general supply metals , inc voice 508 999 index miscellany c c unix operating system intel processor ms dos miscellany algorithms , 2nd ed , , list 41 00 programmers work , list 10 00 software reliability , musa , , list 51 00 users guide small computers , jerry list 10 00 inner circle , bill list 10 00 elementary pascal , , singer list 13 00 c language object oriented program design examples c , mark mullin list 20 00 c language variations c , list 23 00 programs data structures c , list 20 00 turbo c programmer 's library , list 23 00 advanced turbo c , hebert schildt list 23 00 understanding c , bruce hunter list 18 00 c database development , al stevens list 24 00 c programmer 's library , , leslie , list 20 00 dr dobbs toolbook c , dr dobb 's journal list 25 00 c excellence programing proverbs , henry list 19 00 c , pocket reference , herbert schildt list 5 00 c programming guide , jack , wear list 25 00 c programmer 's toolkit \( w disk \) , jack list 40 00 c step step , waite , list 28 00 unix operating system unix system v environment , r bourne list 27 00 unix papers , michael waite , editor list 27 00 unix ms dos programmers , steven mikes list 25 00 business guide unix system , , emerson list 20 00 unix programming 80286 80386 , alan list 25 00 unix complete reference , stephen list 25 00 unix primer plus , waite , martin , list 20 00 unix programmers , introduction , daniel list 23 00 unix super users , list 26 00 unix communications , henderson , et al list 28 00 system v made easy learning unix , o'reilly \( sv 3 2 \) list 10 00 understanding using , , o'reilly assoc list 22 00 operating system design approach , p c ed , , hard list 53 00 microcomputer operating systems , list 17 00 intel processor , ms dos inside ibm pc \( w disk \) , peter norton list 30 00 using turbo prolog , robinson list 20 00 using assembly language , wyatt \( ibm pc orientation \) list 27 00 compute 's quick easy guide learning lotus 1 2 3 , doug wolf list 13 00 advanced 80386 programming techniques , james list 23 00 intel 80386 system software writer 's guide , intel corp list 20 00 performance programming ms dos , michael young list 20 00 programmer 's problem ibm pc , xt , r list 20 00 rob robert extremely important maintain correct attributions anonymous
dewey udel edu \( shun chu \) subject wanted sim city pc nntp posting host dewey udel edu organization university delaware , newark distribution usa lines 9 hello , looking sim city pc \( new used \) please make offer udel edu thanks ! chu
reef cis ufl edu \( john young \) subject cd singles sale organization univ florida cis dept lines 41 nntp posting host reef cis ufl edu list \( mostly \) european 5 cd singles sale brand new still shrink wrapped please e mail interested crowded house weather w 3 remixes 10 peter gabriel blood eden w 12 pg booklet 8 00 mercy street 10 genesis never time w dreaming sleep \( live \) turn \( 1992 live \) tonight , tonight , tonight \( full version live \) 10 brian may much love kill w much love kill \( guitar version \) 2 10 r e radio song 3 live green world tour 10 r e shiny happy people w 40 song losing religion \( live acoustic version \) 10 r e near wild heaven w tom 's diner low live 10 r e man moon w 3 non lp tracks organ new orleans instrumental 2 arms love 10 r e sleeps tonite w 2 non lp tracks lions sleeps tonight 10 r e sleeps tonite w 2 non lp tracks organ song star kitten \( demo version \) 10 r e everybody hurts \( edit \) w new orleans instrumental 1 \( long version \) mandolin 10 r e everybody hurts \( edit \) w 2 non lp tracks chance \( \) dark globe 10 sting ever lose faith w 3 songs mtv unplugged ! time mad every breath take 10 sting ever lose faith form 12 u2 sunday bloody sunday w remixes two hearts beat one new year 's day 10 u2 fire ep w three sort love comes bass trap 10 u2 's gonna ride wild horses w paint black \( \) ca n't help falling love \( triple peaks \) 10 neil young harvest moon \( single edit \) w deep forbidden lake 8
tsmith cerritos edu subject wanted searching music videos distribution world organization cerritos college , norwalk ca lines 26 currently searching old video tapes music groups early 80 's late 80 's first requested vhs formats , i'm accepting either vhs , 8mm , beta type format i'm interested type nite clubs trendy clothing stores play tapes send reply groups listed , 'll reply back groups listed type i'm searching 'll gladly pay worth trade movie music videos , thanks tom leaving state southern california please thank visiting earthquake state inet tsmith cerritos edu
hawaii edu subject supra 14 4 fax 14 4 ext stand alone modem forsale 150 organization university hawaii distribution usa expires sat , 1 may 1993 10 00 00 gmt lines 10 supra fax modem v 32bis external stand alone forsale external digital status display fax speed 14 4 send receive compat class 1 , 2 , group 3 data rate 14 4 12 96 72 48 24 12 3 v 42bis , v 32bis 5 hayes compatible command external cable serial port works pc , mac , amiga 150
csb1 engr uark edu \( chris bray \) subject tapes sale ! ! ! 2 50 \( ppd \) x received usenet pa dec com id mon , 26 apr 93 15 04 50 0700 x received inet gw 2 pa dec com id mon , 26 apr 93 15 04 45 0700 x received engr engr uark edu \( 1 28 1 2 \) id mon , 26 apr 93 17 03 cdt x mailer mail user 's shell \( 7 2 4 2 2 92 \) x alt rock n roll , rec music marketplace usenet , misc forsale usenet lines 58 hi still tapes left 2 50 \( postage paid \) best offer multiple orders appreciated , necessary package deals welcome thanks chris bray lewis , huey sports contains heart rock roll , heart soul , want new drug , walking thin line , , ! ! ! nervous night contains danced , day day , zombies , nervous night poison look cat dragged 1st tape contains cry tough , wont forget , talk dirty , ! hall oates big bam boom contains touch , possession obsession , ! cellar contains wanted man , round round , ! quiet riot condition critical contains outfield play deep contains say n't , love , love world , ! plant , robert shaken n' stirred contains little little journey raised radio contains girl cant help , suzanne , good , ill alright without , cant night go forever best contains big hits plus inxs kick contains , new sensation , devil inside , need tonight , never tear us apart , , ! great tape csb1 engr uark edu chris bray uafhp uark edu university arkansas , know , white coral , painted brown , attached skull common wood screws , make child look like deer
jth bach udel edu \( jay thomas hayes \) subject ibm hardware nntp posting host bach udel edu organization university delaware distribution usa lines 22 lowered prices following ibm hardware forsale ati great card , supports 1024x768 256 colors , 800x600 32k colors , 640x480 16 million colors found also speed windows considerably i'm asking 90 b card also 2 2400 internal baud modems docs n't original boxes work fine 'd like get 20 35 backups 400 backup power supply allows cpu monitor continue operate 30 minutes event power failure asking 50 please e mail replies jth bach udel edu thanks , jay
jth bach udel edu \( jay thomas hayes \) subject genesis sega cd software forsale nntp posting host bach udel edu organization university delaware distribution usa lines 29 sega genesis sega cd forsale recently moved friends genesis cd player i'm selling whole setup 'd like sell everything together package come sega genesis sega cd 2 joysticks 1 pad sewer shark \( cd \) sol \( cd \) sega classics \( cd \) \( 5 games 1 cd \) streets rage revenge columns golden axe sherlock holmes \( cd \) cd g music graphics sampler john madden \( cart \) games cases instructions everything great condition would really like get 350 stuff sega cd alone worth 299 please email responses jth bach udel edu i'm dropping price 325 ca n't get much wo n't sell thanks , jay
jth bach udel edu \( jay thomas hayes \) subject lotus 1 2 3 ver 3 4 forsale nntp posting host bach udel edu organization university delaware distribution usa lines 10 new price extra copy lotus 1 2 3 ver 3 4 dos package originally 600 'd like get 75 please reply e mail jth bach udel edu thanks , jay
kmgoh leland stanford edu \( goh \) subject sale system organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa distribution usa lines 36 sale one complete set equipment , including base unit , portable transmitter plus 30 days free service description item convenient secure anyone 1 whose home broken 2 whose parents live alone 3 children elderly parents 4 suffers heart attack stroke 5 temporarily permanently disabled 6 superior features 1 allows talk center using transmitter help sent soon possible 2 allows personal freedom independence deal item worth us 2400 open market asking 2000 best offer interested please email kmgoh leland stanford edu call \( 415 \) 497 0663 send certificate delivery relevant documents goh meng 116 , wilbur p box 7029 , stanford ca
kmgoh leland stanford edu \( goh \) subject sale air tix bahamas organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa distribution usa lines 20 certificate 2 round trip bahamas expiration date one year maximum value , depending time location , estimated asking 1500 best offer information , call goh \( 415 \) 497 0663 send mail kmgoh leland stanford edu goh meng 116 , wilbur p box 7029 , stanford ca
kmgoh leland stanford edu \( goh \) subject sale air tix orlando , vegas reno organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa distribution usa lines 22 certificate one round trip either orlando , las vegas reno lake tahoe expiration date one year maximum retail value , depending time location , estimated 2000 three locations , including accommodation 3 days 2 nights leading hotel asking 1800 best offer purchase tickets single location possible information , call goh \( 415 \) 497 0663 send mail kmgoh leland stanford edu goh meng 116 , wilbur p box 7029 , stanford ca
kmgoh leland stanford edu \( goh \) subject sale air tix cancun distribution usa organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa lines 21 certificate one round trip either cancun , mexico expiration date one year maximum retail value , depending time location , estimated 1100 , including accommodation 3 days 2 nights leading hotel asking 1000 best offer information , call goh \( 415 \) 497 0663 send mail kmgoh leland stanford edu goh meng 116 , wilbur p box 7029 , stanford ca
mzhao magnus acs ohio state edu \( min zhao \) subject cheap harddisks ibm pc xt nntp posting host bottom magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university distribution na lines 16 original ibm 10mb harddisks sale actually seagate 's st412 , mfm , full height , ibm logo black face plate disk checked formatted dos 5 0 doubled 20mb dblspace stacker desire original ibm foam fitted anti static bags sure ever used , drive sent good working order 30 plus shipping cost , \( 5 \) , one old ibm xt pcs , ! 's cheaper floppy drive !
mzhao magnus acs ohio state edu \( min zhao \) subject composite monochrome monitor sale nntp posting host bottom magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university distribution na lines 10 12 composite monochrome monitors sale computer monitor 80 , model number rca type input video \( audio \) power , brightness contrast front , v h hold position controls back nice little monitor used pcs , amigas , vcr , security monitor excellent condition asking 40 plus shipping cod \( exceed 10 \) applicable
edu \( stephen \) subject stereo lp records sale ! distribution na organization presbyterian college , clinton sc , usa lines 1
oracle com \( jeffrey \) subject sony color watchman 4sale distribution usa organization oracle corp , redwood shores ca lines 8 nntp posting host us oracle com x disclaimer message written unauthenticated user oracle corporation opinions expressed user necessarily oracle sony color watchman , model 310 vhf uhf 86 , 400 pixels 2 7 inch \( \) screen dimensions 3 3 8 x 6 1 8 x 1 3 16 bright , colors , sharp \( unlike casio pocket tvs \) ac power adapter paid 300 00 asking 150 00 obo
com \( paul \) subject wanted 16mhz floating point co proc organization storage concepts , inc lines 12 distribution world nntp posting host rachel com keywords sun 3 'd say subject line covers need floating point co processor sun 3 system please reply via email 've got one like sell thanks paul l storage concepts inc sr diagnostics eng ave email com irvine , ca uucp ! ! \( 714 \) 852 , fax \( 714 \)
oracle com subject speakers forsale distribution usa organization oracle corp , redwood shores ca lines 37 nntp posting host us oracle com x disclaimer message written unauthenticated user oracle corporation opinions expressed user necessarily oracle home speakers \( hear inc \) model ii floor tower speaker system model ii pair 3 way design 3 4 , 6 5 mid range , two 6 5 low bass impedance 8 ohms \( minimum 4 ohms \) , cross points 100hz 3 2 khz frequency response rated rated efficiency power rating 35 200 watts per channel black finish magnetic shielded perfect surround sound front speakers audio speakers retail 850 00 , asking 500 obo , year old , rarely used , excellent like new condition bose 301 book shelf speakers , black , perfect condition , like new , paid 350 00 , asking 220 00 firm b \( bang \) satellite speakers , white brand new box , paid 450 00 350 00 obo yamaha center center paid 125 , asking 80 00 firm , like new yamaha rear channel speakers surround sound paid 150 , asking 99 00 , like new car speakers boston acoustic 861 seperates \( car audio speakers \) , 6 woofers seperate brand new box , never installed , 259 00 good guys asking 199 00 firm 2 8 mtx free air woofers , new box , never installed paid 49 00 good guys asking 70 00 firm
oracle com subject kenwood audiophile cassette tape deck 4sale organization oracle corp , redwood shores ca lines 50 nntp posting host us oracle com x disclaimer message written unauthenticated user oracle corporation opinions expressed user necessarily oracle kenwood audiophile cassette tape deck asking 199 00 obo shipping , \( original price paid 450 00 \) , excellent condition , well maintained , rarely used model kx 900 kenwood audiophile series \( kenwood stereo component \) programmable playback memory system \( used program playback order selection program stored ram \( random access memory \) system digital display song played \) counter memory index \( mode selected , count tape counter stored memory function useful necessary stop restart tape fast forward rewind search mode \( searching selection , skipping selection repeating selection touch \) time stand switch \( used along audio timer unattended timer recording timer playback performed \) dolby nr filter bias adjustment \( used obtain optimum bias matches type type played \) tape selector switch \( , , normal , metal \) rec mute key \( recording , press key delete undesired portions programs announcements commercials key pressed , tape runs forwards 5 seconds make section , pause function automatically stops tape restart recording , press pause key \) peak program meters rec level controls phone jack mic jacks input selector switch specs type front loading stereo cassette deck w dolby nr system track system 4 track , 2 channel stereo mono , recording playback heads record playback head x 1 \( amorphous alloy \) erase head x 1 \( double gap ferrite \) motor 2 motors frequency response tape 20 hz 17 , 000 hz \( 25 hz 16 , 000 3 db \) tape 20 hz 18 , 000 hz \( 25 hz 17 , 000 3 db \) tape 20 hz 18 , 000 hz \( 25 hz 17 , 000 3 db \) metal tape 20 hz 19 , 000 hz \( 25 hz 18 , 000 3 db \) signal noise ratio dolby nr 68 db \( metal tape \) dolby nr 58 db \( metal tape \) harmonic distortion less 0 8 wow 0 04 \( w r \) dimensions w 440 mm h 123 mm
cs tamu edu \( jason tobias \) subject 4sale 486 localbus mb w cpu , weitek , video , ide , etc organization computer science department , texas university lines 35 distribution world nntp posting host photon tamu edu keywords sun 3 cad setup sale local bus motherboard use 32mb simms \( 256k 1m 4m \) 9 expansion slots \( 8 16 bit slots , 1 32 bit slot \) weitek co processor socket 33 mhz intel cpu 33 mhz weitek math co processor g local bus et4000 video card based tseng et4000 chip design supports resolutions 1280x1024 interlaced non interlaced uses ramdac allow 32k colors 800x600 , 65k colors 640x480 register level compatible cga , ega , vga , mda software drivers available 1 2 3 , , autocad , , windows , wordperfect , vesa 8514 emulation also contained card local bus ide controller floppy disk controller two fully serial ports 1 parallel port 1 game port used setup run autocad 3d studio combination local bus weitek co processor made fast cad modeling work weitek coprocessor cut 3d studio render times half sometimes also increases redraws modeling 3d studio autocad everything less year old asking 950 00 shipping whole package please respond via email thanks jason tobias photon tamu edu
magnus acs ohio state edu \( stephen k \) subject electronic typewriter needed nntp posting host photon magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 14 wanted word processing typewriter friend looking electronic typewriter , preferably 40 char display spelling correction send info addresses thanks , steve know , think put mountains otherwise , characters going fall \? laurie anderson stephen magnus acs ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu bitnet
lonnie mack cs unlv edu \( charles p cutler ii \) subject test reply lonnie mack cs unlv edu \( charles p cutler ii \) organization unlv computer science electrical engineering lines 11 article bigboote wpi edu , coates bigwpi wpi edu \( jeffery david coates \) writes \) coates bigwpi wpi edu \( jeffery david coates \) \) subject test \) date 23 apr 1993 21 09 29 gmt \) organization worcester polytechnic institute \) \) \) \) test \) failed
oracle com subject misc car audio forsale nntp posting host us oracle com organization oracle corp , redwood shores ca x disclaimer message written unauthenticated user oracle corporation opinions expressed user necessarily oracle lines 89 dcr \( high power pull cassette deck cd changer control \) features 18 w x 4 theft prevention chassis \( pull \) 24 station presets \( 18 fm , 6 \) optimum reception system iv \( fm circuitry auto high fm pulse noise \) dolby b nr key head release flexible internal front amp rear amp internal front amp internal rear amp auto reverse cassette mechanism manual seek tuning music sensor stereo mono \( fm \) , local switches metal tape switch din e easy installation lock sleeve night illumination dash light dimmer lead preset scan cd changer control random play tracks disc automatic manual search excellent condition manual asking 220 00 shipping yamaha 300 power amplifier \( car audio \) features selectable 2 mode power output 40w x 2 ch x 1 ch w extremely low distortion \( 0 1 thd \) low rfi circuit effectively eliminates radio frequency interference might arise dc dc conversion full protection circuitry protects amplifier potential damaged caused overload , short , dc leakage , excessive heat mis wiring input level adjustment allows complement system audio component gold plated rca jack ensures durable , optimum contact , even rugged road conditions remote power links entire system 's cassette receiver 's ot tuner 's power switch screw terminals allow simple wiring connections power fuse replacement simple , one step operation noise reduction circuitry effectively suppressed driving specifications continuous power output \( per channel , 4 ohms , 2 channels driven \) 0 1 thd , 20 hz 20khz 0 1 thd , 1 khz 40w 40w \( per channel , 4 ohms , 1 channels driven \) 0 1 thd , 20 hz 20khz \( \) 0 1 thd , 1 khz \( \) speaker impedance 4 8 ohms frequency response \( 1w , 4 ohms \) 10 hz 100 khz \( 0 , 1 \) signals noise ratio 105 db total harmonic distortion \( , 1 khz , 4 ohms , 24 khz , lpf \) 0 005 dimensions \( w x h x \) 200 x 50 x 156 mm weight 5 lbs 15 oz list price 250 00 one nicest cleanest amp even owned using two car , extra one n't really need bay area , like listen first , let know asking 150 00 firm shipping \( brand new box , never installed \) boston acoustic 861 seperates \( car audio speakers \) , 6 woofers seperate brand new box , never installed , 259 00 good guys asking 199 00 firm 2 8 mtx free air woofers , new box , never installed paid 49 00 good guys asking 70 00 firm box top line 5400 auto alarm 2 twin buttons remote \( patented electronic motion shock sensor , parking light flasher , ignition kill , panic mode , power door lock control , led flashing status light , arms doors , hood trunk , etc \) news box , 180 00 firm
jwg0 ns1 cc lehigh edu \( john walter \) subject 20 playboy magazines 1987 1992 organization lehigh university lines 51 roommate left playboy collection longer wants , i'm offering general public \( that's ! \) make offer entire collection accept best offer \( offer include cheapest method shipping bethlehem , pa \) 1992 february \( rachel williams , world tour , pom tanya beyer \) 1991 may \( shannon tracy pom jean \) july \( tall girls , miss bulgaria , pom wendy kaye \) september \( twins pom \) november \( la jackson pom marie christensen \) december \( parkinson price right pom wendy hamilton \) 1990 july \( sharon stone , marilyn look alike , pom jacqueline \) october \( girls big west , marisa , pom york \) november \( got made , sex cinema , pom lorraine olivia , \) 1989 january \( 35th anniversary issue collector 's edition \) february \( year sex , rio 's grand , pom eden \) march \( la jackson pom laurie wood \) august \( women wall st , diana lee license kill , pom \) november \( donna mills , sex cinema '89 , pom renee \) 1988 august \( sunshine girls pom \) october \( girls southwest conference pom shannon long \) november \( women washington , sex cinema '88 , pom pia \) december \( playmate review , sex stars '88 , anthony , pom \) 1987 november \( hahn , sex cinema '87 , pom pam stein \) also special edition playboy presents 100 beautiful women mba looking job hiring \? e mail jwg0 lehigh edu take walk wild side lehigh university \) bethlehem , pa usa \( j h n g e w r w k
austin ibm com \( wants know \? \) subject deals bad organization ibm austin x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 27 thomas cf dev \( baritone \) wrote article 1993apr20 iscsvax uni edu harter5255 iscsvax uni edu writes wanted let know honest good people \( even outside iowa \) i'm sorry anyone thinks wasting space , thought might want relief thief posts think n't hear bad deals , would nice hear good news nice kevin post one misled , vast majority honest good people fact , latest study , 99 7 net deals went smoothly without hitch 's bad ones get publicity agreed yet run problem deals net bought things cds \( plenty ! \) full computer small problem ups rather seller besides , complaints always get publicity something goes wrong , people complain rarely seen posts stating well deal went guess kevin practically first ! 'd rather swimming samuel \( 512 \) 823 ibm austin , e mail austin ibm com ibmpa awdpa ibm com speaking ibm
pledge netcom com \( alan \) subject sale pocket ethernet adapter keywords ethernet organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 10 pocket ethernet adapter connects pc parallel port network make offer sig construction send suggestions pledge netcom com
cbnewsb cb att com \( larry \) subject stereo equipment , speakers sale organization distribution nj lines 18 keywords polk stereo sale polk 12 speakers 60 watt rx csm 40 rm 500 best offer friend asked post interested want information , call reply thanks call carl 609 466 leave message
alin nyx cs du edu \( ailin lin \) subject mfm hd 10mb 25 , 70 organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept lines 10 seagate st 212 , hh , 10mb , 25 ibm , fh , , 70 mfm type good working condition buyers pay shipping ailin 803 654 8817
mzhao magnus acs ohio state edu \( min zhao \) subject cheap hard drives pc xt nntp posting host top magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 16 original ibm 10mb harddisks sale actually seagate 's st412 , mfm , full height , ibm logo black face plate disk checked formatted dos 6 0 doubled 20mb dblspace stacker desire original ibm foam fitted anti static bags sure ever used , drive sent good working order 30 plus shipping cost , \( 5 \) , one old ibm xt pcs , ! 's cheaper floppy drive !
ychen hubcap clemson edu \( eric chen \) subject xt keyboard , 10 k organization clemson university , clemson sc lines 5 title says \( ibm brand \) eric
subject deskjet 500 accessories forsale cbnewsc cb att com \( ricardo rollins \) distribution oh organization keywords deskjet 500 , cartridges , cables lines 23 sale following hewlett packard 500 deskjet 4 additional deskjet ink cartridges 8 ft parallel printer cable printer approx 2 years old \( 7 months use , year storage illinois columbus \) excellent condition original manuals , boxes included selling price 325 00 entire package unwilling break good would cartridges without printer interested call either \( 614 \) 860 \( 614 \) 771 also respond via e mail ricardo rollins e mail rollins att com bell laboratories voice 1 614 860 6200 e broad st disclaimer opinions expressed mine columbus , oh unless 're morally , ethically , politically correct \)
kepler unh edu \( dennis w \) subject sa 12 tube power amp organization university new hampshire durham , nh lines 10 distribution usa nntp posting host kepler unh edu sa 12 per channel warm tube sound , great warming cds excellent shape asking 650 thanks tom
alin nyx cs du edu \( ailin lin \) subject nice sale organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept lines 5 , used , looks like new , worth 170 , sell 70 buyers pay shipping ailin 803 654 8817
bongo cc utexas edu \( chatterjee \) subject 85 mazda glc sale organization university texas austin , austin tx lines 26 distribution austin reply bongo cc utexas edu \( chatterjee \) nntp posting host bongo cc utexas edu originator bongo cc utexas edu glc miles charcoal grey , 4 dr automatic transmission c , stereo system 4 way speaker rear window , cruise control new water pump , front tires , headlight , heat shield 1 year old battery transmission well maintained records purchase service inspection done good condition reason selling moving austin 2500 00 \( negotiable \) must see appreciate call leave message answering machine 477 email sc che utexas edu chatterjee department chemical engineering sc che utexas edu university texas austin , tx 78712 bongo cc utexas edu
pw4963 thor albany edu \( peter white \) subject mac lcii 4 80 sale organization state university new york albany distribution ny lines 10 mac lcii 4 80 purchased last august cpu mouse monitor keyboard 800 obo peter white pw4963 csc albany edu pwhite mac archive umich edu
scratch sce carleton ca \( craig \) subject wanted 4 channel multitrack recorder \( cassette preferred \) summary want buy 4 channel multitrack recorder \( cassette preferred \) keywords wanted audio cassette 4 track mixer fostex yamaha organization carleton university lines 19 would like buy 4 channel multitrack recorder would prefer cassette machine made fostex , , yamaha , etc would consider reel reel well write know anything thanks w craig internet scratch sce carleton ca dept systems computer engineering phone \( 613 \) 788 \( dept \) carleton university \( 613 \) 241 \( home \) ottawa , , canada fax \( 613 \) 788 \( dept \) w craig internet scratch sce carleton ca dept systems computer engineering phone \( 613 \) 788 \( dept \) carleton university \( 613 \) 241 \( home \) ottawa , , canada fax \( 613 \) 788 \( dept \)
steveg bach udel edu \( steven n \) subject 200 meg western digital ide hard drive sale ! nntp posting host bach udel edu organization university delaware distribution usa lines 5 selling western digital 212 meg ide hd , caviar 2200 model access time 15 ms , built cache brand new , still original static bag asking 275 , obo
quip eecs umich edu \( ralph seguin \) subject split a4000 , scanner , ram , , toaster , , svhs vcr , scope , keywords toaster , amiga , video , a4000 , ram , disk , scsi organization university michigan eecs dept , ann arbor distribution na lines 133 sorry frequency posting \( i'm time crunch \) i'm selling toys afford house \( amiga 4000 040 25 mhz 68040 \( built fpu mmu \) 18 megs ram , 2 megs video ram , expandable 2 gigabytes scsi controller fujitsu 3 5 scsi drive , 12ms , 3 years warranty 1 year site service remaining 3000 obo epson full page , 24 bit color scanner w adpro loader software \( standalone adpro loader \) docs cable 850 supra v 32 bis , 14 4k , latest roms 205 scsi cd rom drive , , internal 225 mitsubishi 14 multisync 15 38 khz , 30 90hz analog rgb , ttl , video inputs 275 , obo \( 2000 less original \) amiga 2500 040 toaster system amiga 2500 zeus 68040 \( fpu mmu built \) , 1 year warranty 16 megs ram 1 meg video memory quantum prodrive 100 , 100m scsi drive 2 personal ii , time base \( video composite \) , docs , video toaster 2 0 lots fonts objects , sequencing , toaster , compress , instructional video scsi cd rom drive sony svhs vcr , new , warranty , 2 color rgb composite yc monitors pioneer video disc player , , rf , composite rock solid sync generator , multi format video disc players , cd 6900 obo parcel stuff necessary \( please send offers \( meade 8 newtonian reflector telescope 8 aperture , f 6 heavy duty mount clock drive dual axis joystick ac dc drive tube bit strength 2 finder scopes 1 finder scope 1 finder scope diagonal holder 9mm eyepiece 2 barrel 2 \( includes adapter 1 25 \) 1 25mm 1 25 eyepiece 1 9mm 1 25 eyepiece , take pick , 30 manuals needs , otherwise superb condition 775 \( 'd really prefer sell locally due size \) maxtor , 680 meg \( formatted \) , 5 25 fh , 625 695 sun software listed amiga comes boxes , diskettes , manuals many cases unopened , containing registration cards mean 18 golf 10 greg norman 's shark attack 10 superstar ice hockey 10 jack 10 3d design disk 10 pga tour golf 10 10 balance power 10 world trophy soccer 10 waterloo 10 omni play basketball 10 software 65 cadence used 1 month manual lcd panel built computer must sell locally due size bought 700 asking 190 posted friend \( please email um cc umich edu \) amiga 2500 030 , 5 megs ram , 40m scsi drive , scsi controller , monitor 1200 obo thanks , ralph \( 313 \) 677 , please call 6 00pm , send email \( best way reach \) rps arbortext com dip eecs umich edu ralph seguin 2261 hills dr 8 ann arbor , mi
cst blueoak berkeley edu \( courtney terry \) subject sale 1969 ghia organization university california , berkeley lines 25 distribution ca nntp posting host blueoak berkeley edu 1969 ghia car excellent running condition 49 , 000 mi new engine new tires \( aug 92 \) new clutch \( 91 \) new carb \( 91 \) original radio \( fm \) great shape exterior black interior car well maintained regular tune ups unfortunately , car 's previous owner minor front end collision right front nose dented patched hard find part needed repair damage besides damage , car excellent condition 1600 bo courtney email cst blueoak berkeley edu phone \( 5 weekdays \) 510 704
sequent com \( laura williams \) subject sale custom couch piano nntp posting host sequent sequent com organization sequent computer systems inc distribution socal lines 18 location corona del mar , ca \( orange county \) sale contemporary custom couch 7' long \( 3 \) solid black raw silk like material rolled clean design excellent condition \( left behind parents moved state \) 450 best offer sale console piano w bench cherry wood great condition 600 best offer contact dell louise williams \( 714 \) 644 \( 714 \) 760
ac dal ca subject john bell luck catching yet \? organization dalhousie university , halifax , nova scotia , canada lines 8 one unfortunate people run guy sent 30 cash \( stupid , know \) 4 cds last heard know people ripped guy advances tracking \? tom n
cleveland freenet edu \( rob henry \) subject wanted 3 tickets cleveland phantom opera show organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 6 reply cleveland freenet edu \( rob henry \) nntp posting host slc4 ins cwru edu need 3 tickets cleveland showing phantom opera pay face value tickets 50 dollar lower range preferably show middle late may bought please leave mail
dino fiabane pics twwells com \( dino fiabane \) subject v 32 modem reply dino fiabane pics twwells com \( dino fiabane \) organization pics online ! multiuser system 609 753 2540 lines 35 gvc technologies v 32 modem 9600 4800 2400 1200 300 bps operation automatic speed selection ccitt v 32 v 22bis v 22 v 21 full duplex operation asynchronous operation auto answer auto dial automatically switch data voice transmission supports com port 1 4 , irq 2 5 analog digital remote digital loopback test modes communication crosstalk software manual included modem manual warranty registration card included \( optional ccitt v 42bis v 42 mnp 2 5 module , providing error correction data compression increase throughput 38 , 400 bps , available directly manufacturer \) mint condition 125 reply dino fiabane pics com mail bounce sent address instead , please reply via private e mail pics ! dino fiabane twwells com \( since home bbs handle personal messages e mail time , replies also arrive via e mail instead way regular newsgroup \) dino fiabane , 150 weston drive , cherry hill , nj phone \( 609 \) 424 slmr 2 1a reply pics ! dino fiabane twwells com via e mail pics online multiuser system \( 609 \) 753 2540 hst 609 753 1549 \( v32 \) massive file collection 45 , 000 files online 250 newsgroups
georgian tigger jvnc net \( ops mgr \) subject informix \( dos os 2 \) sale reply lee polarsun rna rockefeller edu organization jvncnet lines 20 originator ens tigger jvnc net nntp posting host tigger jvnc net sale informix graphic spreadsheet version 1 1 runs windows network ready 5 25 distribution brand new , unopened 150 shipping included email queries , responses , flames lee lee polarsun rna rockefeller edu
georgian tigger jvnc net \( ops mgr \) subject sun scsi 2 host adapter sale \( 501 \) reply chen med columbia edu organization jvncnet lines 20 originator ens tigger jvnc net nntp posting host tigger jvnc net please reply seller sale sun scsi 2 host adapter assembly brand new unopened mylar sun part 501 50pin external connector compatible sun 3 100 200 , 4 200 300 machines available march 1 , 1993 originally purchased 1 , 200 eighteen months ago please email offers lee lee polarsun rna rockefeller edu
iscsvax uni edu subject comic book sale organization university northern iowa lines 36 hello , name john following comic books sale please feel free make bid 'd like add one dollar shipping \( usa \) remember e mail replies iscsvax uni edu regular group thank marvel silver surfer \( current series \) 1 \( 3 copies \) x factor 1 \( 2 copies \) excalibur 1 \( first square bound \) punisher 1 \( 2 copies \) dc comics 1 12 \( one copy \) omega men 1 , 2 , 3 \( 3 first lobo appearance green arrow hunters 1 \( 3 copies autographed mike \) 2 \( 2 copies \) 3 \( one copy \( \) alternate comic companies get teenage mutant ninja turtles \( reprints ! \) 2 \( auto kevin eastman \) 3 , 4 1 1 aliens \( press \) 1 \( 2 copies \) whitman comics \( 1978 \) star trek 54 \( autographed james know scotty \) thank time john iscsvax uni edu
georgian tigger jvnc net \( ops mgr \) subject minolta master series vhs c camcorder forsale originator ens tigger jvnc net nntp posting host tigger jvnc net reply lee polarsun rna rockefeller edu organization jvncnet lines 35 sale minolta master series vhs c camcorder forsale multidimensional autofocus system 6x power zoom charge coupled device dual area system \( backlit subjects \) high speed digital shutter 1 1000 sec dual mode self timer date time insert linear tape counter power focus advanced auto white balance system mic jack , dc , remote connector , earphone excellent condition , used several times two years original box packing ac adapter charger vac one standard 500 \( 60 min \) one extra 501 \( 80 min \) cassette adapter ad 2 \( full size vhs viewing \) bunch miscellaneous extras \( rf adapter , cords , etc \) available immediately price 550 00 us firm shipping extra please email responses lee lee polarsun rna rockefeller edu
pledge netcom com \( alan \) subject sale pocket ethernet adapter keywords ethernet organization netcom online communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 12 article netcom com pledge netcom com \( alan \) writes pocket ethernet adapter connects pc parallel port network make offer note device never used \( ie still plastic \) 10baset sig construction send suggestions pledge netcom com
unix amherst edu \( kim hong cheng \) subject gateway 2000 telepath fax modem sale nntp posting host amhux3 amherst edu organization amherst college x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl7 lines 13 gateway 2000 fax modem send receive fax 9600 baud send receive 57 , 000 baud never used comes software crosstalk winfax new 195 gateway \( sold gateway customer \) fit bus asking 180 obo
phy sunysb edu \( greg \) subject mini vacation package sale organization suny stony brook lines 28 distribution world nntp posting host physics sunysb edu x news reader vms news 1 20 following cancun mini vacation voucher sale voucher entitles holder one airfare three days two nights one two adults cancun \( choice ! \) , mexico 15 months use voucher reservations must made 60 days advance holiday peak periods excluded flights generally depart mid week , usually tuesdays 70 major airports additional air transportation additional person made available 50 00 fully deposit required sent along voucher express june 12 , 1993 get reservation request form one year travel package n't include meals , hotel taxes voucher offered express , balboa blvd , ste 130 , , ca approximate retail value voucher cited 1 , 100 00 voucher fully transferable best offer takes ! greg phy sunysb edu
lz 5f berkeley edu \( ben wong \) subject gt bike , 300 obo apple iie computer extras 400 obo organization university california , berkeley lines 12 distribution ba nntp posting host 5f berkeley edu please reply account posting friend gt bike , chrome frame , blue , alloy parts , z rims , mint condition asking 300 obo apple iie 64k , floppy drive , monitor , okidata 92 printer , modem , 30 disks stuff asking 400 obo call ariel \( 510 \) 881 leave message i'm , reply account posting friend
europa eng umd edu \( tae hun kim \) subject hard drive sale ! ! ! organization university maryland lines 6 nntp posting host coke eng umd edu brand new 1 2gb seagate scsi hard drive 15ms access time , full height 5 1 4 size 1100 h leave e mail interested
martinez info gw com \( phil martinez \) subject sale keywords distribution misc forsale , atl forsale , misc forsale computers organization information gateway bbs 1 404 928 7873 lines 14 following items use accept best offers either brand new 300 200 mc interested , send best offers thanks
edu \( stephen \) subject stereo lps sale updated list 4 27 distribution na organization presbyterian college , clinton sc , usa lines 1
edu \( stephen \) subject lps sale distribution na organization presbyterian college , clinton sc , usa lines 1
mike donald eeap cwru edu \( michael c \) subject ! ! ! ! ! n't deal man dana weick ! ! ! ! ! organization eeap , cwru , cleveland lines 39 nntp posting host donald eeap cwru edu minh pham writes l k n g f r n w e c k ripping people deal ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! please help looking dana weick month ago made deal net sell memory , 100 486 66 cpu thought deal great , went dana weick w las phoenix , az \( 602 \) 925 day time \( 602 \) 842 evenings email address weick master lds az loral com update , friends delt , try call , 's answer phone call made midnight est god knows time arizona 'll try later anybody want mail box \? michael c mike snowhite eeap cwru edu electrical engineering applied physics case western reserve university cleveland 's hell , cleveland , ohio 44106 damn good simulation
hickson pop psu edu \( darryl hickson \) subject cordless telephone answering machine sale organization penn state population research institute lines 15 distribution usa nntp posting host pop psu edu bought new phone answering machine combo really n't need present setup items great condition prices include shipping questions contact e mail call \( 814 \) 234 darryl toshiba cordless phone 40 rubber antenna , 10 number memory 6300 answering machine 35 remote operation \( message retrieval , reset , change \) toll saving feature single tape operation
belvilad dunx1 ocs drexel edu \( belville \) subject pool table sale organization drexel university , philadelphia lines 11 article 1993apr25 magnus acs ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu \( kenneth w miller \) writes ken well tell us pool table ! andy andy belville 's taken long time , 've belvilad dunx1 ocs drexel edu fallen love beautiful woman
belvilad dunx1 ocs drexel edu \( belville \) subject sale organization drexel university , philadelphia lines 12 article 1993apr25 magnus acs ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu \( kenneth w miller \) writes ken , tell us ken ! andy andy belville 's taken long time , 've belvilad dunx1 ocs drexel edu fallen love beautiful woman
pwr physics ucf edu \( patrick w ryan \) subject receiver amp originator pwr phys organization university central florida physics lines 16 sherwood stereo receiver received gift , would like sell , already system sherwood model rx brand new , still factory sealed high quality surround sound amp \( 160 watts , 250 watts dynamic headroom power \) , highly rated consumer reports \( march , 1993 \) 4 audio inputs , pre amp main amp connection jacks added flexibility includes 2 year factory warranty comes remote asking 210 reply subject receiver thanks , pwr phys physics ucf edu
rwf2 ns1 cc lehigh edu \( robert william fusi \) subject hp laserjet iii sale organization lehigh university lines 13 article aludra usc edu , yuanchie aludra usc edu \( roger hsu \) writes hi , hp laserjet iii sale 's printed less 1500 pages according self test report asking 1000 interested , please e mail thanks ! get new newer model cheaper price thru mail order believed reincarnation former life
baden sys6626 bison mb ca \( baden de bari \) subject ! ! ! ! ! n't deal man dana weick ! ! ! ! ! organization system 6626 bbs , winnipeg manitoba canada lines 29 well , i'm going quote message , anyhow mail fraud federal offence ! time big b g f n e ! ! ! ! contact local authorities arizona resides , inform situation \( proof transaction , would also help \) , able take yeah , guy get heavily penalized n't think never met cannot prosecuted ! ! ! take w n ! ! ! hope i'm \? inspiration comes baden sys6626 bison mb ca \( \) baden inqmind bison mb ca seek baden de bari unknown
jeff lombardi \( jeff lombardi \) subject notebook computer wanted organization nemesis usenet gateway denver , colorado lines 13 powerbook 170 4 40 1 year old warranty , perfect condition \( original apple fax modem \) , would consider selling around 1000 get back think would equitable arrangements \( sp \? \) manuals system disks , software boxes loaded , threw mac packaging ts origin hp nemesis ph \( 23 303 1 \) jeff lombardi via node 23 303 1 uucp ! scicom ! ! jeff lombardi internet jeff lombardi
jrm elm circa ufl edu \( jeff mason \) subject jeff mason 's auction organization univ florida psychology dept lines 115 nntp posting host elm circa ufl edu summary tuesday , april 27 update following comics auction highest bid takes ! near mint mint condition ! title minimum current alpha flight 51 \( jim lee 's first work marvel \) 5 00 aliens 1 \( 1st app aliens comics , 1st prnt , may 1988 \) 20 00 krism sold amazing spider man 136 \( intro new green goblin \) 20 00 amazing spider man 238 \( 1st appearance hobgoblin \) 50 00 archer armstrong 1 \( frank miller smith layton \) 7 50 avengers 263 \( 1st appearance x factor \) 3 50 bloodshot 1 \( chromium cover , bwsmith cover poster \) 5 00 sold cyberrad 1 \( cyberrad , prestige silver edition \) 15 00 daredevil 158 \( frank miller art begins \) 35 00 dark horse presents 1 \( 1st app concrete , 1st printing \) 7 50 detective 657 \( azrael appears , intro cypher \) 5 00 detective 658 \( azrael appears \) 4 00 harbinger 10 \( 1st appearance h r corps \) 7 00 b matthey sold h r corps 1 5 00 incredible hulk 324 \( 1st app grey hulk since 1 1962 \) 7 00 incredible hulk 330 \( 1st mcfarlane issue \) 15 00 incredible hulk 331 \( grey hulk series begins \) 11 00 incredible hulk 367 \( 1st dale keown art hulk \) 15 00 incredible hulk 377 \( 1st new hulk , 1st prnt , keown \) 15 00 marvel comics presents 1 \( wolverine , silver surfer \) 7 50 marvel presents \( charleston chew giveaway , sam keith \) 5 00 maxx limited ashcan \( 4000 copies exist , blue cover \) 30 00 mr 1 \( signed advance copy , 10 , 000 exist \) 10 00 new mutants 86 \( mcfarlane cover , 1st app cable cameo \) 10 00 new mutants 100 \( 1st app x force \) 5 00 new mutants annual 5 \( 1st liefeld art new mutants \) 10 00 omega men 3 \( 1st appearance lobo \) 7 50 omega men 10 \( 1st full lobo story \) 7 50 power man iron fist 78 \( 3rd appearance sabretooth \) 20 00 power man iron fist 84 \( 4th appearance sabretooth \) 15 00 simpsons comics stories 1 \( polybagged special ed \) 7 50 spectacular spider man 147 \( 1st app new hobgoblin \) 12 50 spider man special \( giveaway , vs venom \) 10 00 star trek next generation 1 \( feb 1988 , dc mini \) 7 50 star trek next generation 1 \( oct 1989 , dc comics \) 7 50 trianglehead 1 \( special limited edition , autographed \) 5 00 web spider man 29 \( hobgoblin , wolverine appear \) 10 00 web spider man 30 \( origin rose , hobgoblin appears \) 7 50 wolverine 10 \( claws , 1st battle sabretooth \) 15 00 wolverine 41 \( sabretooth claims wolverine 's dad \) 5 00 wolverine 42 \( sabretooth proven dad \) 3 50 wolverine 43 \( sabretooth wolverine saga concludes \) 3 00 wolverine 1 \( 1982 mini series , miller art \) 20 00 wonder woman 267 \( return animal man \) 12 50 x force 1 \( signed liefeld , bagged , x force card \) 20 00 x force 1 \( signed liefeld , bagged , shatterstar card \) 10 00 x force 1 \( signed liefeld , bagged , deadpool card \) 10 00 x force 1 \( signed liefeld , bagged , sunspot gideon \) 10 00 comics near mint mint condition , bagged shiny polypropylene bags , backed white acid free boards shipping 1 50 one book , 3 00 one book , free order large enough amount stuff willing haggle thousands thousands comics , please let know 've looking , maybe help geoffrey r mason jrm elm circa ufl edu department psychology mason webb psych ufl edu university florida prothan maple circa ufl edu
dwilson csugrad cs vt edu \( david wilson \) subject looking audio video computer furniture items lines 35 organization virginia tech computer science dept , blacksburg , va lines 35 unless otherwise noted , mainly interested used items \( \) following sale , please contact email mbeck vtssi vt edu phone \( 703 \) 552 4381 usmail michael beck 1200 progress street 5500e blacksburg , virginia 24060 please give much info possible \( brand , age , condition , etc \) wanted , 4 27 93 computer equip 1 cheap \( 100 \) tape drive pretty much kind ibm \( used \) 1 memory expansion card ps 2 model 1 memory ps 2 model \( new used \) 1 high density \( 1 2 mb \) 5 1 4 disk drive external non computer equip 1 tv 27 bigger , stereo 1 vcr 4 heads , stereo 1 receiver 100 watts w dolby surround sound capability 1 bed full queen sized local offers , please 1 desk local offers , please due shipping constraints
sol rtsg mot com \( arkady \) subject zenith 386 , 20mhz , 40 mb hard disk , 1492 nntp posting host reply rtsg mot com organization motorola inc , cellular infrastructure group lines 24 following machine sale zenith 386 , 20mhz machine 40 mb hard disk 3 5 inch 1 44 mb floppy drive 5 25 1 2 mb floppy drive 2 mb ram vga card 1492 \( flat tension mask \) vga color monitor flat screen , non glare 101 key keyboard , 2 serial ports , 1 parallel port original manuals came excellent condition 1100 00 best \( reasonable \) offer arkady rtsg mot com
subject wanted lcd overhead mon jonathan evans wariat org \( jonathan evans \) distribution world organization comm link bbs \( 216 \) 691 cleveland , ohio lines 13 wanted lcd overhead monitor school \( cga \) looking one fairly good shape school n't alot money spend one know one sale please e mail thanks , jonathan jonathan evans wariat org cleveland freenet edu
ingr com \( gregory l \) subject trailer sale reply ingr com organization intergraph corporation lines 32 trailer sale 1990 hooper auto transport trailer x 6 5' 4 ton gross weight capacity tandem axle suspension 7 x 14 5 mh nylon tires comes spare tire electric brakes stop lights turn signals loading ramps tilt towing removable front steel fence removable stake sides attaching , , etc rigged hauling automobile , tractor , equipment , etc less 4000 miles since new , title registration papers sale original owner 795 big hook end chain 4 web negotiable \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) greg \( \) \( \) senior software analyst phone \( 205 \) 730 \( \) \( \) aeronautical systems , msd fax \( 205 \) 730 \( \) \( \) intergraph corporation internet ingr com \( \) \( \) huntsville , al mailstop \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \)
athena mit edu \( michele l matthews \) subject line skates sale organization massachusetts institute technology lines 10 distribution mit nntp posting host mit edu need sell two pairs line skates \( n't use \) one size 9 one size 12 less year old used little , generally corridor good condition sell 99 98 \( still boxes , want \) 'd like get 85 obo please respond e mail michele matthews
chein eng auburn edu \( \) subject electronic music software windows like new 70 nntp posting host wilbur eng auburn edu organization auburn university engineering distribution usa lines 29 received music software windows found needs midi sound card \( sound blaster pro preferred \) fantastic features show n't plan add sound card , putting sale 's listed 79 95 april issue windows magazine paid 84 95 total asking around 70 shipping included windows composer , sequencer \( tape deck \) , box one 's word processor music write edit \( cut , paste , move copy , etc \) notes symbols , play print composition 's graphical user interface works like multi track tape recorder 64 musical tracks arranged play , record , rewind , fast forward stop plays music midi compatible instrument piano , guitar , drum set , saxophone , clarinet , organ , many need musician use software line manual handy musicians , 's great writing music tedious aspect almost new \( one week old \) , unregistered 70 \( including shipping \) obo \( please reasonable \)
bnr ca \( \) subject wanted 4 channel multitrack recorder \( cassette preferred \) keywords wanted audio cassette 4 track mixer fostex yamaha reply bnr ca \( \) organization bell northern research ltd lines 10 scratch sce carleton ca writes would like buy 4 channel multitrack recorder would prefer cassette machine made fostex , , yamaha , etc would consider reel reel well write know anything try used sound \( 226 preston near \) music \( near bank street \) used multi tracks listed phone book \( also see yellow pages musical equipment used \)
vincent garnet berkeley edu \( vincent j lee \) subject wanted center channel pref infinity polk organization university california , berkeley lines 4 distribution ba nntp posting host garnet berkeley edu i'm interested center channel home theater yu one would interested selling one please let know thanks prefer infinity polk audio
jrm elm circa ufl edu \( jeff mason \) subject price slashed ! ! comics 60 overstreet price guide organization univ florida psychology dept lines 423 nntp posting host elm circa ufl edu updated april 27 , 1993 comics priced 40 overstreet price guide , comics near mint mint condition title price alpha flight 13 \( wolverine appears \) 7 20 50 \( double size \) 1 00 51 \( jim lee 's first work marvel \) 5 40 amazing spider man 267 \( peter david script , human torch \) 2 10 275 \( r origin spiderman , hobgoblin \) 7 20 276 \( hobgoblin appears \) 5 40 284 \( punisher , hobgoblin appear \) 5 40 293 \( kraven appears \) 4 80 294 \( kraven appears \) 4 80 306 \( todd mcfarlane \) 6 00 312 \( hobgoblin vs green goblin \) 10 80 315 \( venom appears \) 9 00 320 \( todd mcfarlane art \) 4 20 321 \( todd mcfarlane art \) 4 20 323 \( silver sable , paladin , c america \) 4 20 324 \( sabretooth appears \) 7 20 325 \( red skull , captain america \) 4 20 328 \( hulk appears , last mcfarlane \) 4 40 330 \( punisher appears \) 2 40 331 \( punisher appears \) 2 40 337 \( hobgoblin appears \) 2 10 338 1 40 342 1 40 343 1 40 344 \( intro carnage \) 4 20 346 \( venom appears \) 4 20 347 \( venom appears \) 4 20 348 1 20 349 1 20 350 \( 52 pages \) 1 80 351 1 20 352 1 20 353 1 20 354 1 20 355 \( punisher appears \) 1 20 356 \( punisher appears \) 1 20 357 \( punisher appears \) 1 20 358 \( punisher appears \) 1 20 365 \( 1st app spider man 2099 , c \) 3 60 annual 24 2 10 annual 25 \( 1st solo venom story \) 4 20 annual 26 \( new warriors , venom \) 3 00 archer armstrong 1 \( frank miller smith layton \) 9 00 9 2 50 10 2 50 avengers 272 \( alpha flight appears \) 1 00 300 \( 68 pages , new team \) 1 50 306 1 00 324 \( alpha flight appears \) 1 00 329 \( new team \) 1 00 annual 15 2 10 annual 18 1 80 annual 19 1 50 batman legends dark knight 1 \( blue cover \) 3 30 3 1 30 batman shadow bat 1 \( still \) 5 00 batman versus predator 1 \( prestige edition , predator \) 4 20 1 \( prestige edition , batman \) 4 20 batman year one \( trade paperback , 1st printing \) 8 40 bloodshot 1 \( chromium cover , bwsmith cover poster \) 7 00 3 2 50 4 2 50 5 2 50 daredevil 131 \( origin bullseye \) 16 00 138 \( ghost rider , death 's head early app \) 11 00 158 \( frank miller art begins \) 40 00 159 \( appears , frank miller art \) 20 00 169 \( elektra 2nd appearance , bullseye \) 4 50 170 \( bullseye , appear \) 3 00 182 \( punnisher appears , frank miller art \) 6 60 183 \( punnisher appears , frank miller art \) 6 60 184 \( punnisher appears , frank miller art \) 6 60 196 \( wolverine appears \) 7 20 darkhawk 2 \( spider man hobgoblin appear \) 6 00 dark horse presents 1 \( 1st app concrete , 1st printing \) 7 20 5 \( concrete appears \) 2 40 25 1 80 32 \( annual \) 2 40 37 1 20 42 \( aliens appear \) 3 00 1 \( x men appear \) 1 20 40 1 00 41 1 00 42 \( beast appears \) 1 00 deathlok 1 2 40 deathstroke terminator 1 \( 1st printing \) 4 80 2 3 00 defenders 125 \( intro new defenders \) 1 80 152 \( double size , x factor appears \) 2 00 demon 13 \( lobo appears \) 1 00 14 \( lobo appears \) 1 00 15 \( lobo appears \) 1 00 eternal warrior 1 \( miller cover \) 11 00 2 7 00 9 2 50 10 2 50 11 2 50 fantastic four 112 \( hulk vs thing \) 25 00 337 \( simonson art begins \) 1 00 338 \( simonson art \) 1 00 339 \( art \) 1 00 344 \( simonson art \) 1 00 345 \( simonson art \) 1 00 347 \( art adams cover art , wolverine \) 3 00 348 \( ghost rider wolverine appear \) 1 80 349 \( ghost rider wolverine appear \) 1 80 350 \( 52 pages \) 1 50 351 1 00 352 \( simonson art \) 1 00 353 \( simonson art \) 1 00 354 \( simonson art \) 1 00 355 1 00 356 \( fantastic four vs new warriors \) 1 00 358 \( 80 page 30th anniversary issue \) 2 00 359 1 00 360 1 00 361 1 00 362 1 00 annual 24 1 20 flash 27 1 00 28 1 00 48 1 00 50 1 00 53 \( superman flash race \) 1 00 ghost rider 1 \( may 1990 , origin , double size \) 15 00 15 \( glow dark cover , 1st print \) 5 40 16 \( spider man hobgoblin cover story \) 2 10 17 \( spider man hobgoblin cover story \) 2 10 ghost rider cable 1 \( sam keith cover \) 4 00 ghost rider captain america fear 5 00 guardians galaxy 25 \( prism foil cover \) 2 50 harbinger 10 \( 1st appearance h r corps \) 7 00 16 3 00 17 2 50 18 2 50 h r corps 1 5 00 6 2 50 7 2 50 havok meltdown 1 3 00 incredible hulk 324 \( 1st app grey hulk since 1 , 1962 \) 6 00 327 1 20 330 \( 1st mcfarlane issue \) 15 00 331 \( grey hulk series begins \) 9 60 376 \( keown art , grey vs green hulk \) 3 60 377 \( 1st new hulk , 1st prnt , keown \) 12 00 385 \( keown c \) 2 40 388 \( keown c \) 2 40 389 \( keown c \) 2 40 390 \( keown c \) 2 40 392 \( keown c \) 2 40 393 \( green foil stamped cover , keown \) 4 80 infinity gauntlet 1 \( perez painted cover thanos \) 6 00 2 \( thanos \) 3 60 3 \( thanos \) 2 40 justice league america 46 1 00 47 1 00 50 1 00 52 1 00 justice league quarterly 1 2 10 justice society america 1 \( april 1991 \) 1 00 1 \( origin , kirby art \) 25 00 2 \( kirby art \) 15 00 3 \( kirby art \) 9 00 7 \( kirby art \) 5 00 last generation 1 2 10 magnus robot fighter 21 \( new direction logo begins \) 5 00 23 3 00 24 2 50 marc spector moon knight 25 \( ghost rider appears \) 2 10 marvel comics presents 1 \( wolverine , silver surfer \) 6 00 2 \( wolverine , master kungfu \) 3 00 3 \( wolverine , master kungfu \) 3 00 4 \( wolverine , master kungfu \) 3 00 5 \( wolverine , daredevil \) 3 00 6 \( wolverine , hulk \) 2 40 7 \( wolverine , \) 2 40 10 \( wolverine , man thing \) 2 40 11 \( man thing , ant man \) 1 20 12 \( man thing , colossus \) 1 20 13 \( black panther , \) 1 20 14 \( black panther , nomad \) 1 20 17 \( ron lim art , black panther \) 1 20 18 \( ron lim art , black panther \) 1 20 19 \( rob liefeld art , cyclops \) 1 20 20 \( ron lim art , black panther \) 1 20 21 \( ron lim art , black panther \) 1 20 22 \( ron lim art , black panther \) 1 20 25 \( nth man , havok , panther \) 1 20 26 \( black panther , havok , hulk \) 1 20 27 \( black panther , havok \) 1 20 28 \( black panther , havok \) 1 20 29 \( black panther , havok \) 1 20 30 \( black panther , havok \) 1 20 31 \( erik larsen , excalibur \) 1 20 42 \( wolverine \) 1 80 52 \( rob liefeld , wolverine \) 1 80 60 \( wolverine , hulk \) 3 60 62 \( jackson , deathlok \) 4 80 63 \( poison , thor , scarlet witch \) 2 40 64 \( mark texiera , ghost rider \) 2 70 65 \( mark texiera , ghost rider \) 2 70 66 \( mark texiera , ghost rider \) 2 70 67 \( mark texiera , ghost rider \) 2 70 72 \( b w smith , weapon x \) 4 80 73 \( b w smith , weapon x \) 2 40 75 \( b w smith , weapon x \) 1 80 76 \( b w smith , weapon x \) 1 80 77 \( b w smith , weapon x , \) 1 80 80 \( b w smith , weapon x \) 1 80 81 \( b w smith , weapon x \) 1 50 82 \( b w smith , weapon x \) 1 50 83 \( b w smith , weapon x \) 1 50 84 \( b w smith , weapon x \) 1 50 85 \( 1st keith art jae lee \) 3 60 88 \( keith , wolverine , beast \) 2 40 97 \( ghost rider , cable \) 1 20 104 \( wolverine , ghost rider \) 1 00 106 \( wolverine , ghost rider \) 1 00 maxx 1 \( sam keith \) 3 00 1 \( ted \) 3 00 mighty mouse 2 1 00 4 1 00 5 1 00 6 1 00 10 1 00 moon knight 1 \( 1980 \) 2 60 6 1 50 7 1 50 52 \( frank castle \( punisher \) \) 2 70 new mutants 18 \( intro new warlock , magus \) 5 40 88 \( rob liefeld , 2nd cable \) 12 00 89 \( rob liefeld , 3rd cable \) 9 00 90 \( rob liefeld , sabretooth appears \) 7 20 91 \( rob liefeld , sabretooth appears \) 7 20 93 \( rob liefeld , wolverine vs cable \) 9 00 94 \( rob liefeld , wolverine vs cable \) 9 00 98 \( 1st app deadpool , gideon , domino \) 7 20 100 \( 1st app x force \) 5 40 annual 4 \( evolutionary war \) 1 80 annual 5 \( 1st liefeld art new mutants \) 10 80 annual 6 1 20 annual 7 \( 2nd app x force \) 7 20 summer special 1 \( art adams art \) 1 80 1 \( mcfarlane \) 2 40 omega men 3 \( 1st appearance lobo \) 6 00 10 \( 1st full lobo story \) 6 00 annual 1 1 00 2 1 00 power man iron fist 78 \( 3rd appearance sabretooth \) 25 00 84 \( 4th appearance sabretooth \) 20 00 power pack 27 \( wolverine sabretooth appear \) 6 00 predator big game 3 \( contains trading cards \) 1 80 punisher 9 \( portacio \) 6 60 punisher captain america blood glory 1 5 00 2 5 00 3 5 00 punisher p v 1 \( starlin script , wrightson art \) 5 00 2 \( starlin script , wrightson art \) 5 00 3 \( starlin script , wrightson art \) 5 00 punisher war journal 16 \( jim lee art \) 3 00 29 \( ghost rider appears \) 1 50 30 \( ghost rider appears \) 1 50 31 1 10 32 1 10 35 1 10 36 1 10 38 1 10 39 1 10 40 1 10 punisher war zone 1 \( die cut cover \) 2 50 2 1 50 ragman 1 \( pat broderick , origin ragman \) 3 00 rocketeer special edition \( dave stevens art , 1984 \) 6 00 13 2 50 14 2 50 simpsons comics stories 1 \( polybagged special ed \) 7 50 solar man atom 18 3 00 19 2 75 20 2 75 21 2 50 22 2 50 spectacular spider man 81 \( punisher appears \) 8 40 93 \( answer appears \) 1 80 94 \( cloak dagger appear \) 1 80 95 \( cloak dagger appear \) 1 80 99 \( spot appears \) 1 80 116 \( sabretooth appears \) 3 00 117 \( sabretooth appears \) 3 00 119 \( sabretooth appears \) 3 00 124 \( dr octopus appears \) 1 50 130 \( hobgoblin appears \) 2 40 131 \( kraven appears \) 3 60 132 \( kraven appears \) 3 00 140 \( punisher appears \) 1 80 142 \( punisher appears \) 3 00 143 \( punisher appears \) 3 00 147 \( 1st app new hobgoblin \) 12 00 152 \( origin lobo bros , punisher \) 1 20 157 1 20 158 \( spider man gets new powers \) 7 20 159 \( cosmic spider man appears \) 4 80 160 1 00 189 \( 1st ed hologram , hobgoblin \) 4 80 annual 10 \( mcfarlane story \) 1 50 spider man 1 \( gold edition , direct sale \) 3 00 1 \( regular edition , green , \) 3 00 5 \( lizard , appear , mcfarlane \) 2 40 6 \( hobgoblin , ghost rider appear \) 3 60 7 \( hobgoblin , ghost rider appear \) 3 60 13 \( black costume returns \) 3 00 14 \( black costume , appear \) 2 00 18 \( sinister six , hulk appear \) 2 00 19 \( hulk , deathlok appear \) 2 00 20 2 00 26 \( origin , hologram cover \) 3 00 star trek next generation 1 \( feb 1988 , dc mini \) 6 00 star trek next generation 1 \( oct 1989 , dc comics \) 5 40 2 3 60 strange adventures \( dozens , varying high grades \) ask swamp thing 72 1 00 73 \( john constantine appears \) 1 00 annual 3 1 20 tales teen titans 44 \( deathstroke app \) 4 80 terminator 1 \( dark horse \) 3 60 terminator secondary objectives 1 1 80 terminator 2 judgement day 1 1 00 thor 374 \( mutant massacre , x factor , sabretooth app \) 4 80 429 \( ghost rider appears \) 1 80 430 \( ghost rider appears \) 1 80 warlock infinity watch 2 \( starlin scripts \) 2 40 3 1 50 4 1 40 5 1 40 6 1 40 7 1 10 8 1 10 9 \( vs thanos \) 1 10 web spider man 2 4 20 3 4 20 4 3 00 5 3 00 8 \( thunder appears \) 2 70 16 \( appears \) 2 00 18 2 00 20 2 00 21 2 00 30 \( origin rose , hobgoblin appears \) 7 20 47 \( hobgoblin appears \) 1 00 52 1 00 66 \( green goblin super hero \) 1 20 67 \( green goblin super hero \) 1 20 68 1 00 71 1 00 72 1 00 73 1 00 74 1 00 75 1 00 76 1 00 77 1 00 78 1 00 79 1 00 80 1 00 81 1 00 82 1 00 83 1 00 84 \( rose hobgoblin story \) 1 00 85 \( rose hobgoblin story \) 1 00 86 \( rose hobgoblin story \) 1 00 87 \( rose hobgoblin story \) 1 00 90 \( hologram cover , polybagged \) 3 60 91 1 00 annual 3 1 75 werewolf night 33 \( 2nd appearance moon knight \) 20 00 37 \( moon knight appears \) 5 00 wolverine 10 \( claws , 1st battle sabretooth \) 14 40 41 \( sabretooth claims wolverine 's dad \) 6 00 42 \( sabretooth proven dad \) 3 00 43 \( sabretooth wolverine saga concludes \) 2 40 wolverine 1 \( 1982 mini series , miller art \) 18 00 wonder woman 267 \( return animal man \) 13 00 annual 1 1 75 2 1 75 x factor 47 1 00 51 \( sabretooth appears \) 3 00 52 \( sabretooth appears \) 3 00 53 \( sabretooth appears \) 3 00 57 1 00 62 \( x agenda , jim lee cover \) 3 60 63 \( whilce portacio art begins \) 3 60 69 \( whilce portacio art \) 1 20 70 \( last old team issue \) 1 20 annual 6 \( new warriors , x force appear \) 1 30 x force 1 \( signed liefeld , bagged , x force card \) 25 00 1 \( signed liefeld , bagged , shatterstar card \) 15 00 1 \( signed liefeld , bagged , deadpool card \) 15 00 1 \( signed liefeld , bagged , sunspot gideon \) 15 00 1 \( bagged , cable card \) 3 60 x 13 3 00 15 3 00 16 3 00 comics near mint mint condition , bagged shiny polypropylene bags , backed white acid free boards shipping 1 50 one book , 3 00 one book , free order large enough amount stuff willing haggle thousands thousands comics , please let know 've looking , maybe help titles posted n't list every issue title , tried save space willing trade comics , computer equipment , video equipment , audio equipment , etc let know want trade ! geoffrey r mason jrm elm circa ufl edu department psychology mason webb psych ufl edu university florida prothan maple circa ufl edu
jrm elm circa ufl edu \( jeff mason \) subject comics jeff 's strange comics dozens new titles ! organization university florida , gainesville lines 279 nntp posting host elm circa ufl edu tuesday april 27 , 1993 update latest updated list strange bizzare odd independent comics sale always , cover price , actually look guide see much worth week 's special \( spoof comics \) \( spoof comics \) favorite image comics comics 5 00 includes shipping a1 6 \( featuring tank girl \) 10 \( adventure series \) adventures luther 2 , 7 apocalypse 1 alias alien nation 2 2 animal man 35 38 , 41 48 , trade paperback \( issues 1 9 \) anything monday 1 apache dick 1 3 ape nation 1 immortal 1 atlantis chronicles 1 avengers 263 , 272 , 300 , 306 , 324 , 329 , annual 15 , 18 , 19 avengers west coast 67 back future \( cartoon \) 1 biker 4 batman shadow bat \( \) batman vs predator 1 batman year one bats , cats 1 beer 2 bizarre 3 zone 1 book 1 3 black scorpion 1 publishing flip book 1 blood sword dynasty 28 bob 's favorite comics 1 \( caliber \) 1 boris bear 1 boris bear 1 \( teenage radioactive black belt \) big numbers 1 1 , 2 , 3 1 butt 1 dinosaurs 1 cage 1 quick 1 cosmic odyssey crossroads 1 , 5 cyberpunk 1 dark horse presents 1 , 5 , 25 , 37 , 40 , 43 desert storm send hussein hell ! 1 dragon 3 vol 2 4 1 \( eclipse \) 3 eye felix cat 1 fire team 3 fish police 3 8 , 22 flash gordon 1 4 fly 1 french ice 10 , 13 full throttle 1 gang 1 1 gatekeeper 1 get lost 1 ghost rider captain america fear give liberty 4 godzilla 2 greatest flash stories ever told green arrow 1 9 , 12 , 47 51 , ann 1 , 4 1 green 5 , 13 , 14 green lantern 1 grey 1 26 , 71 , 80 5 guardians galaxy 25 hammer god 1 vice 1 harley rider 1 haunt fear 1 hercules 1 hollywood superstars 5 saw legend 1 6 icon 1 idol 1 1 country nam 2 interface \( epic \) 1 3 intruder \( tsr comics module \) 3 invaders home 1 invaders mars \( eternity \) 2 kung fu special 1 jaguar 1 jason monarch 1 jeremiah birds prey 1 , 2 john byrne 's next men 1 , 3 , 4 judge 41 justice machine 6 , 29 1 , 2 , 7 , 8 kicker 's inc kid \( eternity \) 2 1 labor force \( \) 4 last american \( epic \) 1 , 3 , 4 last generation 1 , 3 , 4 last viking heroes 2 legend shield 1 legend killer 1 legend 1 , 4 , 6 , 13 , 14 , 19 7 lethargic comics , weakly 1 light darkness war 1 , 2 living stone mountain 1 lords ultra 1 lucifer 1 c h 1 \( \) secret weapon 1 , 2 master 1 maxwell mouse follies 1 maze 5 , 18 , 19 merlin 3 , 6 meta 4 \( first \) 1 metal \( eternity \) 6 1 , 11 miami mice 3 \( bode \) rebel 1 mister e 1 mr monster 's true crime 2 ms tree \( \) 26 , 28 , 37 , 40 ms tree 3 ms tree quarterly \( dc \) 3 , 4 1 , 2 , curse \( \) 1 , 3 myth conceptions 1 nathaniel dusk 2 nathan impaler monster hunter \( night realm \) 1 nemesis warlock \( quality \) 1 , 5 new beginning 1 new frontier 1 3 new triumph featuring 4 new york year zero 1 4 night life \( caliber \) 8 night zero \( \) 2 ninja elite \( adventure \) 1 5 , 7 1 official sawyer 1 official prince valiant 1 , 2 1 one 1 open season 1 open space 2 , 3 oracle 1 original black cat 1 ox cow o' war 1 pandora pill 1 1 pathways fantasy 1 patrick rabbit 1 penguin paris 4 personality comics presents comics tour beatles 1 personality comics presents rolling stones army 6 planet apes 8 4 psycho killers \( comic zone \) 6 \( richard ramirez punisher captain america blood glory 1 3 question \( dc \) 35 red heat 1 retief 1 prince fur 2 \( \) 1 vs terminator 1 rock roll comics 56 \( david bowie \) miner ants \( fate \) 4 roger rabbit 's toontown 1 runners \( rip press \) 1 sable \( first \) 19 samurai son death scarlet kiss 1 \( quality \) 9 , 10 scorched earth 1 , 3 scout war shaman 4 screen monsters 1 sensational hulk \( marvel graphic novel 18 \) \( eternity \) 2 3 cold steel 1 1 \( adventure \) book 1 four trials 4 steel 7 \( dc \) 1 , 2 slash 1 6 song cid \( caliber \) 2 sonic 6 space ark 1 \( quality \) 3 spider 1 2 spider man special 1 \( vs venom , giveaway 1993 \) spider man power pack \( giveaway \) spoof \( spawn spoof \) st george 1 \( epic \) 1 stark future \( \) 5 1 4 steed mrs peel 1 straw men \( american \) 1 , 2 street wolf 2 super shark 1 survivors 1 swords shar pei 1 1 tales 3 tales ordinary madness 1 4 tales green 1 , 2 tales 1 1 tomb 1 affairs 4 , 5 toxic avenger 1 3 ike 1 1 5 trouble tigers \( antarctic \) 1 twilight man \( first \) 1 , 4 2000 ad showcase 50 ufo alien contact \( comic zone \) 1 ultra 1 unicorn isle 2 1 3 anne rice interview vampire 1 anne rice vampire companion 1 anne rice vampire lestat 5 venus wars 1 video jack 1 5 violent cases wacky squirrel summer fun special 1 wanderers 1 war 1 , 2 1 warlock 5 \( \) 20 5 web 1 weird 1 wizards last resort 1 world without end 4 x terminators 1 4 1 zorro 1 comics near mint mint condition , bagged shiny polypropylene bags , backed white acid free boards shipping 1 50 one book , 3 00 one book , free order large enough amount stuff willing haggle thousands thousands comics , please let know 've looking , maybe help trade comics well computer equipment , video equipment , etc let know want trade ! ! geoffrey r mason jrm elm circa ufl edu department psychology mason webb psych ufl edu university florida prothan maple circa ufl edu
scotts ftcollinsco ncr com \( scott sherman \) subject radius 24x 800 keywords radius , graphics distribution world organization ncr microelectronics products division \( company \) lines 5 radius 24x accelerated graphics adaptor supports multiple resolutions allows fly changing resolution bit depth msrp 1999 , street price 1700 , price best offer 800 scott \( 303 \) 962
bourman hpcc01 corp hp com \( bob bourman \) subject microcom pocket modem sale organization hp corporate notes server lines 26 hpcc01 comp dcom modems bourman hpcc01 corp hp com \( bob bourman \) 8 59 apr 27 , 1993 hpcc01 comp dcom modems bourman hpcc01 corp hp com \( bob bourman \) 8 51 apr 27 , 1993 sale microcom 1042 pocket modem new list price 895 rechargeable battery pack \( modem \) auto , password security , uucp kermit support , remote access cellular connection , 4 , v 42 error correction mnp5 v 42bis data compression bell 103 , , v 22 , v 22bis microcom turbo mode 19 , 200 dte 12 , dce speed 9 25 pin adapter cable ac power transformer make offer \( 200 \) bob bourman \( 415 \) 857 e mail bourman corp hp com
tobias convex com \( allen tobias \) subject auto air conditioning without freon nntp posting host hydra convex com organization convex computer corporation , richardson , tx , usa distribution usa x disclaimer message written user convex computer corp opinions expressed user necessarily convex lines 16 article news cso uiuc edu uxa cso uiuc edu \( tim \) writes article 1993apr21 ntuix ntu ac sg mgqlu ntuix ntu ac sg \( max lu \) writes working gas solid air con system auto applications kind system , energy exhaust gas anyone interested mail email follow thread , may discussion prospects technology ok , 'll bite supposed work \? tim better still , years ago demonstrated cold air system used air called rovax unit worked well , short coming seal technology today \?
hacker cco caltech edu \( jonathan bruce hacker \) subject auto air conditioning without freon rovax organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 16 distribution usa nntp posting host sandman caltech edu tobias convex com \( allen tobias \) writes better still , years ago demonstrated cold air system used air called rovax unit worked well , short coming seal technology today \? recall reading posts back , rovax \( \? \) died larger competing cheap r12 systems day probably case bad timing think system would better chance today r12 systems death row , investors may hard come second time jon hacker get os 2 2 1 march beta cd rom caltech , pasadena ca 20 call 1 800 3 ibm os2 hacker ridge caltech edu read comp os os2 beta
mgqlu ntuix ntu ac sg \( max lu \) subject auto air conditioning without freon organization nanyang technological university singapore x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 distribution usa lines 15 actually simple principle like activated carbon gases evaporated \( water methanol , etc \) giving cooling effect upon heated , gas saturated bed give gases condensed forms cycle problem cop low \( 0 2 0 6 \) max max g q lu , phd internet mgqlu ntu ac sg division thermal bitnet mgqlu ntuvax bitnet school , nanyang technological university phone \( 65 \) nanyang avenue , singapore fax \( 65 \)
brian gothamcity jsc nasa gov \( brian donnell \) subject dealer cheated wrong odometer reading need help ! nntp posting host arc nasa gov organization nasa arc information sciences division distribution usa lines 9 n't know , california false representation odometer readings criminal felony substantiate , need report dealer local authorities consult lawyer tell civil action take well keep mind prove dealer aware change dashboard brian donnell
jmh hopper virginia edu \( jeffrey hoffmeister \) subject questions insurance companies \( esp geico \) organization itc uva community access unix internet project distribution usa lines 25 article 1993apr21 julian uwo ca wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca \( wayne smith \) writes article 66758 mimsy umd edu davew cs umd edu \( david g wonnacott \) writes i'm considering switching geico insurance , heard assign specific agent policy claim worried might real pain make claim also heard try get rid accident 've read group geico funded purchasing radar guns police depts \( i'm sure \) geico purchased radar guns several states , know done ct also heard horror stories people insured geico years 1 accident immediately dropped 've dropped company become labled high risk , end 3 4 times insurance suggestion , stay , shop around stay away geico ! jeff
freenet carleton ca \( steve hui \) subject new '94 talon \? \? \? \? \? organization national capital freenet , ottawa , canada lines 21 would also interested finding '94 talon , suspect many people would interested , let 's get responses net question anyone info 1994 eagle talon mitsubishi eclipse plymouth laser \? know old talon based mitsubishi galant , japan , 240 hp twin turbo v6 1994 galant released anyway , info '94 talon would appreciated steve hui
hhd0 harvey gte com \( horace dediu \) subject dirty diesels \? distribution na organization gte laboratories , waltham , lines 31 article nataraja opal12 , nataraja rtsg mot com \( kumaravel natarajan \) writes heard diesels considered cleaner burning gas engines emit less carbon monoxide , hydrocarbons , oxides nitrogen \( co , hc , nox \) put lot particulate matter heard something legislation discussed clean diesel emissions anything works install scrubbers diesels \? feasibility installing trucks cars \? would different catylitic converter \? 'd assume easier , since 're removing particulate matter instead converting gasses let 's hear people 's opinions vel natarajan nataraja rtsg mot com motorola cellular , arlington hts il really bugs emissions diesels cleanest , considered polluting banned passenger cars california bunch crap diesel fuel choice enviromental benefit europe 's illegal reason particulates nothing carbon annoyance worst nothing beats diesel cycle efficiency emissions , torque engine durability 's also cheaper horace dediu gte laboratories \( 617 \) 466 40 sylvan road internet gte com waltham ,
sr hp com \( mark \) subject ad said nissan altima best seller \? organization hp sonoma county \( srsd mwtd mid \) x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 8 lines 21 spiros triantafyllopoulos \( c23st kocrsv01 delcoelect com \) wrote , n't nissan officially registering car far government paperwork goes , nissan stanza altima , avoid costly lengthy paperwork \? read net ago , someone actually may said 's little stanza logo altima somewhere bought altima \( like much \) yes little stanza logo ever placed trunk altima big silver letters , stanza far left trunk lid see get close car know look inconspicuous fact first clue stanza owners manual called car nissan stanza altima anybody know nissan way \? mark
raman translab uci edu \( balaji v ramanathan \) subject v4 v6 v8 v12 vx \? nntp posting host translab uci edu organization university california , irvine lines 43 article bt usenet ucs indiana edu mliggett silver ucs indiana edu \( matthew liggett \) writes 1993apr21 191744 3072 ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com \( devil reincarnate \) writes curious knowing commericial cars today v engines v4 n't know v6 legend , mr3 \? mr6 \? lexus es300 , gs300 , sc300 , infiniti , dozens others , including common cars like toyota camry \( option \) v8 n't know mustang 5 0 \( 302 \) camaros firebirds lexus ls400 , sc400 , acura legend , infiniti q45 , lincoln mark viii , luxury autos v10 dodge viper \( \? \) v12 jaguar xjs please add list thanks , ssave ole cdac com mliggett silver ucs indiana edu \( mliggett iugold bitnet 'junk' collector , toys r us kid , antiauthoritarian , fan frogs , iguanas , herps 8 cut signature ! 8 balaji ramanathan , institute transportation studies , n't believe luck ! university california , irvine rely ! !
newman cps msu edu \( timothy newman \) subject domestic content us japan joint ventures organization department computer science , michigan state university lines 15 distribution usa nntp posting host howell cps msu edu originator newman howell cps msu edu anyone know domestic content geo prizm , eagle talon , ford probe \? made us , told contain mostly foreign parts please follow directly , 'll post findings net interest thanks ! tim newman newman cps msu edu
tomacj opco enet dec com \( thunderbirds go ! ! ! \) subject mr2 noisy engine organization digital equipment corporation lines 26 nntp posting host opco eliot right 2 2 liter engine second \( last \) generation mr2 's original guy indicate year mr2 's first generation car \( like '85 \) , 1 6 liter engine \( perhaps engine , 's '87 '89 \) sound describes common older toyota engine ever heard n't know relevance observations oil changes , simply makes noise annoying , mind hear well engine right behind left ear \) mike sorry 'bout mine '91 model non turbo 2 0 \( abs revised suspension \( whatever revised means \) \) i'm australia , always seem get versions without extras europeans americans get standard query , noise get noticeably louder 2 3 months oil change find bit wierd happens oil i'm using \( mobil 1 \) engine \( 3s ge version model \) ie gets older oil \( i'm guessing \) distressing anything , slightly puzzling puzzled
aas7 po cwru edu \( andrew spencer \) subject wife wants convertible organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 38 reply aas7 po cwru edu \( andrew spencer \) nntp posting host slc5 ins cwru edu previous article , twetzel ucs indiana edu \( tom wetzel \) says article usenet ins cwru edu andrew spencer , aas7 po cwru edu writes well , actually , n't , 'll pretend real author query name tacked \) wife informed wants convertible next car recommend consider targa top convertible , drew made point well wife 20s convertible thing triumphs mid 40s , still appreciate open air prefer targa types much less wind noise , objects papers blowing around , foreign objects getting car one still almost advantages convertible tom 's mentioned , personally prefer moonroof sunroof top targa thing well simply n't like cloth tops , extra insurance , color matching alot companies chose convertible , 'd \) mazda rx7 ii like way look 'd black , color matched black top \( look good ! \) b \) vw job matching colors also , last year ! item c \) mustang gt droptop look ok know n't help , thought 'd anyway \) good luck wife \( \) drew
aas7 po cwru edu \( andrew spencer \) subject manual shift bigots organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 29 reply aas7 po cwru edu \( andrew spencer \) nntp posting host slc5 ins cwru edu previous article , dwjz bnr ca \( doug zolmer \) says article 1993apr21 1501 rtsg mot com , kissane black berkeley edu \( john g kissane \) writes matter interest anyone know autos popular us europe rare \? \? \? wondering many cities , traffic signals every 100 feet \( , course \( well ottawa anyway \) \) roads shifting manually real pain left foot also , canadians stupid learn shift manually \( gee , gotta co two feet clutch , brake accelerator , gotta steer , shift operate signals \( optional \) radio two hands duh agree wholeheartedly ! ! ca n't done \) also , north american made cars come automatic standard equipment , bother manual car shift addition money sure ca , us , manuals quite often standard equipment course , finding car one might hard , read sticker window , additional 2k tacked lousy tranny actually paying , 's sometimes hard find one equipped standard \( applies cars , eg , , etc \) drew
cbnewsk cb att com \( kenneth r \) subject v4 v6 v8 v12 vx \? organization lines 20 article 1993apr21 191744 3072 ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com \( devil reincarnate \) writes curious knowing commericial cars today v engines v8 n't know kidding , right \? corvette , several 's bmw 's , mustang gt , etc , etc 's lot european site \? kenny kenny , att bl , 3 5 b , kenny att com
singer mit edu \( matthew r singer \) subject opel owners \? lines 55 reply singer mit edu \( matthew r singer \) organization mit lincoln laboratory article c5t3b2 dg news cso uiuc edu , cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu \( oriolefan uiuc \) writes newsgroups rec autos path ! mit edu ! xn mit edu ! mit edu ! wupost ! howland reston ans net ! ux1 cso uiuc edu ! news cso uiuc edu ! uxa cso uiuc edu ! cka52397 cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu \( oriolefan uiuc \) subject opel owners \? date tue , 20 apr 93 19 45 02 gmt 5 00 message id c5t3b2 dg news cso uiuc edu references gibbonsa sfu ca c5sxi4 j9b news cso uiuc edu 1993apr20 cactus org sender usenet news cso uiuc edu \( net noise owner \) organization university illinois urbana lines 30 boyle cactus org \( craig boyle \) writes article c5sxi4 j9b news cso uiuc edu cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu \( oriolefan uiuc \) writes gibbonsa fraser sfu ca \( darren gibbons \) writes i'm looking information opel cars ask , model \? well , sad truth , i'm entirely sure , 's two seater , roll headlights , hard top , really sporty looking friend one sitting yard really nice condition , body wise , transmission seized , n't run anyone info cars \? engine compartment looks really tight work , fine shape quite interested thanks ! darren gibbons gibbonsa sfu ca would manta , would \? \? \? sold buick dealers mid '70 's price leader \? \? \? \? sounds lot like opel gt 'd guess chassis kadett , rather bigger manta could easily wrong think later kadett 's sold buick opels craig think manta european name gt i'm pretty sure kadett 's sold pontiac lemans think gt early '70s mid '70s manta chintan amin university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig construction hard hat area gt based chassis built model years 1969 1973 manta came 1974 model year 4 seat coupe matthew r singer mit lincoln laboratory \( 617 \) 981 244 wood street singer mit edu lexington , 02173
singer mit edu \( matthew r singer \) subject opel owners \? reply singer mit edu \( matthew r singer \) distribution rec autos organization mit lincoln laboratory lines 56 article 1993apr20 convex com , maynard convex com \( mark maynard \) writes newsgroups rec autos path ! mit edu ! xn mit edu ! ames ! agate ! howland reston ans net ! bogus sura net ! news feed 1 peachnet edu ! gatech ! ! ! tamsun tamu edu ! news utdallas edu ! convex ! convex ! maynard maynard convex com \( mark maynard \) subject opel owners \? message id 1993apr20 convex com sender mark maynard nntp posting host trojan convex com organization convex computer corporation , richardson , tx , usa references gibbonsa sfu ca c5sxi4 j9b news cso uiuc edu distribution rec autos date tue , 20 apr 93 19 17 48 gmt 5 00 x disclaimer message written user convex computer corp opinions expressed user necessarily convex lines 22 article c5sxi4 j9b news cso uiuc edu cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu \( oriolefan uiuc \) writes gibbonsa fraser sfu ca \( darren gibbons \) writes i'm looking information opel cars ask , model \? well , sad truth , i'm entirely sure , 's two seater , roll headlights , hard top , really sporty looking gibbonsa sfu ca would manta , would \? \? \? sold buick dealers mid '70 's price leader \? \? \? \? chintan amin sounds like opel gt neat cars , fun drive sold buick 196 \? 1973 \( remember correctly \) believe '72 engine mods made parts interchangeable older models parts thus much harder come later models parts general difficult find one time jc whitney carried stuff including brand new \( \) long block either gt ghia \( hmm spelling looks hosed \) next project mark 1972 , lowered engine compression would run regular gas \( mention addition emission controls \) '72 also added pop rear quarter windows alot parts available gt c r small cars ct used bill 's opel parts matthew r singer mit lincoln laboratory \( 617 \) 981 244 wood street singer mit edu lexington , 02173
wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca \( wayne smith \) subject questions insurance companies \( esp geico \) organization john p robarts research institute , london , ontario distribution usa nntp posting host valve heart rri uwo ca lines 8 article 66758 mimsy umd edu davew cs umd edu \( david g wonnacott \) writes i'm considering switching geico insurance , heard assign specific agent policy claim worried might real pain make claim also heard try get rid accident 've read group geico funded purchasing radar guns police depts \( i'm sure \)
aas7 po cwru edu \( andrew spencer \) subject v4 v6 v8 v12 vx \? organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 30 reply aas7 po cwru edu \( andrew spencer \) nntp posting host slc5 ins cwru edu previous article , marshatt feserve cc purdue edu \( zauberer \) says article 1993apr21 191744 3072 ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com \( devil reincarnate \) writes curious knowing commericial cars today v engines v4 n't know v6 legend , mr3 \? mr6 \? v8 n't know serious ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! try \( deep breath \) mustang , camaro , optional nearly every truck ever built , corvettes , , bmw , , , , infiniti q45 , jeep grand cherokee , lexus ls 400 , lexus sc 400 , mark viii town car , b , mercury grand name ! ! ! ! v12 jaguar xjs v10 viper v16 must one somewhere believe bugatti 's coming \( \) one something like 4 turbos mucho macho hp one cool price , heard rate , point , i'm pretty sure , indeed , one production tho rather limited drew
aas7 po cwru edu \( andrew spencer \) subject nissan nomenclature \( manual shift bigots wanted \) organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 18 reply aas7 po cwru edu \( andrew spencer \) nntp posting host slc5 ins cwru edu previous article , jkjec westminster ac uk \( shazad barlas \) says best auto shifters street \( track \) porsche wont change floor gas turn years back 200sx auto \( guys call 240sx without turbo \) going round corner next thing know pointing backwards ! drivers seemed quite amused \) shaz sure call 200sx call 240 \? curious also nissan \( sp \) 240 called 200 , came turbo nonturbo n't think 've ever 240 turbo curious \( btw , i'm us , matters \) drew
cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu \( oriolefan uiuc \) subject opel owners \? organization university illinois urbana lines 52 mliggett silver ucs indiana edu \( matthew liggett \) writes c5t3b2 dg news cso uiuc edu cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu \( oriolefan uiuc \) writes boyle cactus org \( craig boyle \) writes article c5sxi4 j9b news cso uiuc edu cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu \( oriolefan uiuc \) writes gibbonsa fraser sfu ca \( darren gibbons \) writes i'm looking information opel cars ask , model \? well , sad truth , i'm entirely sure , 's two seater , roll headlights , hard top , really sporty looking friend one sitting yard really nice condition , body wise , transmission seized , n't run anyone info cars \? engine compartment looks really tight work , fine shape quite interested thanks ! darren gibbons gibbonsa sfu ca would manta , would \? \? \? sold buick dealers mid '70 's price leader \? \? \? \? sounds lot like opel gt 'd guess chassis kadett , rather bigger manta could easily wrong think later kadett 's sold buick opels craig think manta european name gt i'm pretty sure kadett 's sold pontiac lemans think gt early '70s mid '70s manta chintan amin university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig construction hard hat area bzzt manta two door sedan us 1900 engine sometimes referred opel 1900 manta 's also hot fun cars mliggett silver ucs indiana edu \( mliggett iugold bitnet 'junk' collector , toys r us kid , antiauthoritarian , fan frogs , iguanas , herps funny , manta 's europe look surprisingly like opel alluded original poster chintan amin university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig construction hard hat area
cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu \( oriolefan uiuc \) subject opel owners \? organization university illinois urbana lines 13 matmcinn nuscc nus sg \( matthew macintyre national university senegal \) writes way , people think opel \? want one , n't want move europe buy one please make next pontiac f car course 'll wait 'till buy chintan amin university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig construction hard hat area
nigel allen nigel allen canrem com subject alternative fuel vehicles reply nigel allen nigel allen canrem com organization canada remote systems distribution rec lines 48 press release u department energy energy secretary president 's plan alternative fuel vehicles national desk , environment energy reporters contact larry hart u department energy , 202 586 washington , april 21 secretary energy r o'leary today said president clinton 's executive order alternative fuels make federal government driving force behind efforts increase availability alternative fuel vehicles fuel supplies president clinton signed order today , calls federal purchases alternative fuel vehicles numbers next three years least 50 percent higher called energy policy act 1992 president clinton also announced texas land commissioner gary mauro head federal fleet conversion task force advise o'leary implementation executive order delighted working gary mauro make happen , o'leary said land commissioner , gary mauro helped make texas national leader converting state fleet alternative fuels , proponent natural gas vehicles speeches across country task force issue report within 90 days recommending plan schedule implementation department energy us government must lead example option alternative fuels going become practical , affordable choice fleet owners across country , o'leary said increased use produced alternative fuels means reducing pollution creating jobs believe energy efficiency , protecting environment , healthy economy complimentary goals o'leary said plans call department energy coordinate five year purchase plans , help funding extra purchase conversion costs , work encourage development fuel infrastructure needed make fleet conversions practical order , department energy also working states , local governments industry coordinate vehicle purchases encourage manufacturers fuel suppliers make alternative fuel vehicles alternative fuels widely available 30 canada remote systems toronto , ontario 416 629 7000 629 7044
rrg rtp fibercom com \( rhonda gaines \) subject '93 hyundai sonata opinions info wanted distribution usa organization fibercom , inc , roanoke , virginia lines 26 nntp posting host rtp 'd like hear stories experiences hyundai sonata know consumer reports trashed people know swear also n't problems consumer reports claims n't driven one yet driven '93 hyundai \( consumer reports also trashed \) impressed local hyundai dealership \( haggle policy \) offering w power moonroof also sonata base , w sunroof know preference sonata w sunroof 4 spd automatic 'll decide engine prefer test driving 4 cyl v6 sonata also offering 1500 rebate hmmm , 's another question following scenario appropriate manner handle negotiation \? 1 make offer 2 subtract rebate offer 3 talk trade 4 subtract trade offer get final price rhonda gaines , systems network administrator internet gaines fibercom com fibercom , inc , p box , uucp ! uunet ! fibercom ! gaines roanoke , va 1966 fax 703 342 phone 703 342 6700 800 423 1183
grahamt phantom gatech edu \( graham e thomas \) subject nissan nomenclature \( manual shift bigots wanted \) organization georgia institute technology lines 19 nntp posting host oit gatech edu aas7 po cwru edu \( andrew spencer \) writes sure call 200sx call 240 \? curious also nissan \( sp \) 240 called 200 , came turbo nonturbo n't think 've ever 240 turbo curious \( btw , i'm us , matters \) drew currently know 240sx , known elsewhere 200sx graham e thomas blah blah blah blah blah georgia institute technology blah blah blah blah blah internet grahamt oit gatech edu blah blah blah blah blah
eliot lanmola engr washington edu \( eliot \) subject mr2 noisy engine organization clearer blir lines 27 nntp posting host lanmola engr washington edu article usenet ins cwru edu aas7 po cwru edu \( andrew spencer \) writes nice theory bad mr2 's never came four cylinder 2 0 liters like 1 6 \? nonturbo 's 2 2 \? foot mouth , drew first generation mr 2 's 1 6 's smooth 'd real surprised original poster talking 1st generation car second generation cars 2 2 non turbo 2 0 turbo drove non turbo 2 2 calling unpleasant kind also understand anyone using balancing shafts four cylinders , must pay saab royalty using patented design like porsche 's 3 0 i4 wrong wrong mitsubishi owns patent , since expired everybody shred integrity putting balance shafts big 4 's notable exception nissan us market suckers guess need write c start telling publish graphs engine vibration rpm 'll see usenet discussions form engine peak vibrations 3 db less engine b , therefore engine better engine b 1 2 \) eliot
jkjec westminster ac uk \( shazad barlas \) subject car saftey important \? organization university westminster lines 10 course car safety important one used think guys going way ott \( sorry del button dont work \) side impact bars crash zones \( list goes \) make car \( penalties \) recently little accident \( bike \) bad john 's accident made worn helmet \( mom always concerned hair style \) days read report old rea rea shit renault 5 accident roof crushed heads
gwalker rtfm mlb fl us \( grayson walker \) subject questions insurance companies \( esp geico \) keywords boycott geico organization distribution usa lines 35 article dove nist gov keys starchild ncsl nist gov \( lawrence b keys \) writes article murdoch acc virginia edu jmh hopper virginia edu \( jeffrey hoffmeister \) writes article 1993apr21 julian uwo ca wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca \( wayne smith \) writes article 66758 mimsy umd edu davew cs umd edu \( david g wonnacott \) writes i'm considering switching geico insurance , heard assign specific agent policy claim worried might real pain make claim also heard try get rid accident n't worry 'll drop like hot potato make claim 'll make filing claim pain , end leave 've read group geico funded purchasing radar guns police depts \( i'm sure \) geico funded company developed locals showed reluctance buy units , geico started giving away know 've given units florida highway patrol , county sheriff 's local governments real question \? hook geico , ins co tell drivers represent risk determination make receive speeding ticket one geico 's units drivers represent increased risk even ticket two , gives opportunity raise rates equal risk 's called extra profits also know silly nsl , almost universally ignored driving excess nsl gets ticket , increase rates , points license n't make driver insure like sound \? like people thought scheme \? go geico ! unless driving history problems , 're usually better go one major companies stay 'll get long term customer discounts premiums , premium paid commission 's another story another day
gwalker rtfm mlb fl us \( grayson walker \) subject questions insurance companies \( esp geico \) organization distribution usa lines 3 bob excellent ! point correct ! spread word
subject lexus infiniti w00026 tigger stcloud msus edu reply w00026 tigger stcloud msus edu organization st cloud state university , st cloud , mn nntp posting host tigger stcloud msus edu lines 22 first , correct spelling nissan 's luxury automobile division infiniti infinity would also like clear question kind engines power lexus infiniti automobiles , since person remarked earlier posts lexus infiniti models v6 engines , time saying several manufacturer used v8 engines lexus ls400 v8 gs300 v6 es300 v6 sc400 v8 sc300 v6 infiniti q45 v8 v6 g20 inline 4 \( must admit cannot remeber sure \) hope helps
carson u washington edu \( diana smith \) subject question organization university washington , seattle lines 7 distribution usa nntp posting host carson u washington edu ex husband used n't seen long time really good cars know anything \? heard made mexico , course would n't original german 's even true 've mexico n't seen loved , even tho' ugly names one humphrey
petebre elof iit edu \( brent peterson \) subject 1994 mustang organization illinois institute technology , chicago lines 35 article murdoch acc virginia edu jmh hopper virginia edu \( jeffrey hoffmeister \) writes article 1993apr22 192652 3032 virginia edu jmm4h virginia edu \( blade runner \) writes got remind ! yes , 's right , somtime fall , ford \( granddaddy cars \) introducing new , mega cool way fast accord drivers mustang 's supposed 100 streamlined , looking similar mach iii concept car ford came around january ca n't wait anyone hear anything recently \? everything 've read correct , ford nothing skinning existing mustang , minor suspension modifications pictures 've seen indicate n't good job new mustang , nothing cycle 20 year old car jeff gee 1999 already \? yes , still fox program chasis , anything different new car far mechanical 's unknown suspension likely changed , well drive drain printed , clear idea done , say modular v8 others current small block wait see also far styling goes seen good , return tradition c scoop sides roof line much like '65 '66 fastback bp
tommy boole att com \( tommy reingold \) subject likelihood radio stolen reply tommy boole att com organization bell labs , holmdel , nj , usa originator tommy hoodlum nntp posting host hoodlum att com lines 6 question whether radio stolen question radio stolen tommy reingold bell labs , holmdel , nj tommy boole att com att ! boole ! tommy
chpc utexas edu \( albert wu \) subject c service rip organization university texas system chpc lines 8 went place called american car care centers check car c leak checking , told leak compressor seal end , addition labor check , charged 12 dollars pound freon , although evacuated c afterwards leak first , fair charge pound freon \( 12 plus tax \) \? second , unfair \? albert wu
bpita ctp com \( bob pitas \) subject 's rush \( fast \) organization cambridge technology partners distribution usa lines 38 article csa3 lbl gov csa3 lbl gov \( ad absurdum per \) writes wrat rites designed speeds upwards 80 forget exact spec military vehicles 's 80 1958 dodge powerwagon 80 1993 ford taurus , still see reference super slab system interstate defense highways whether military much anything goes 80 road another matter diesel trucks , maybe , load permitting military surplus stuff 've driven jeep classic \( kaiser amc , pre independent suspension \) power wagons \( slant 6 crew cab pickup \) actually , 've heard m1 abrams tank commanders take turbine engines , acheive paved road never seen , believe n't exactly congenial highway speeds , would n't swear would 80 except semi stuff deleted joe another personal opinion people 's republic berkeley '85 mustang gt bob pitas 14 13 99 8 bpita ctp com ned , , nh \( cambridge , \) geddy lee \( \) disclaimer opinions mine , obviously , since end sig !
bpita ctp com \( bob pitas \) subject warning \( please read \) keywords brick , rock , danger , gun , violent , teenagers organization cambridge technology partners lines 43 article 1r1d62 d6s agate berkeley edu bh anarres cs berkeley edu \( brian harvey \) writes rfelix netcom com \( robbie felix \) writes thousands kind teenagers volunteer local agencies help children , seniors , homeless \? hear , hear ! thanks , robbie also n't read much violence teenagers , george bush burying alive tens thousands unarmed iraqi 17 year olds , trying surrender , bulldozers hand , think true , without singling teenagers blame , violence socially acceptable used us 'd like discourage violence plenty work people ages well , n't right group , say n't think violence socially acceptable , means say used pistol toting heros , even thugs considered romantic think great got yelled parents playing cowboys indians \? n't think behavior somewhat encouraged back , fact think difference nowadays , teenager kills another one classroom california , day back old days , 'd never hear something like , period sorry posting rec autos , came '85 mustang gt bob pitas 14 13 99 8 bpita ctp com ned , , nh \( cambridge , \) geddy lee \( \) disclaimer opinions mine , obviously , since end sig !
bowmanj csn org \( jerry bowman \) subject v4 v6 v8 v12 vx \? nntp posting host fred colorado edu organization university colorado boulder , ocs lines 8 article apr22 202724 24131 engr washington edu eliot stalfos engr washington edu \( eliot \) writes subarus use 180 degree vees engines \) 180 degree v ya gotta love ! eliot
mcostell oasys dt navy mil \( malcolm g costello \) subject locking lugnuts tire \? \? reply mcostell oasys dt navy mil \( malcolm g costello \) distribution usa organization carderock division , nswc , bethesda , md lines 20 rec autos , mas skcla monsanto com writes xif put locking tires , need \? \? x mas x xe mail address mas skcla monsanto com since wheel tire balanced car e lugnuts normally involved , would \? would think since close center rotation slight difference weight normal locking one would noticable effect balance could wrong , friday afternoon mack costello mcostell oasys dt navy mil code 65 1 \( formerly 1720 1 \) david taylor model basin , carderock division hq nswc bethesda , md 20084 5000 phone \( 301 \) 227 2431 \(
bowmanj csn org \( jerry bowman \) subject v4 v6 v8 v12 vx \? nntp posting host fred colorado edu organization university colorado boulder , ocs distribution usa lines 42 article nataraja nataraja rtsg mot com \( kumaravel natarajan \) writes mliggett silver ucs indiana edu \( matthew liggett \) writes 1993apr21 191744 3072 ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com \( devil reincarnate \) writes curious knowing commericial cars today v engines v4 n't know ditto seems heard early saabs 2 cycle v4 's , could possibly care \? v6 legend , mr3 \? mr6 \? 's mr3 , mr6 \? gm w v6 v8 n't know mustang 5 0 \( 302 \) camaros firebirds lexus ls400 \( sc400 \) infinity q45 v12 jaguar xjs mercedes bmw diablo please add list vel natarajan nataraja rtsg mot com motorola cellular , arlington hts il
deca cs umn edu \( youjip \) subject information needed keywords mazda mx 6 nntp posting host deca cs umn edu organization university minnesota lines 7 hi ! first time post news group days , certain problem '88 mazda mx 6 , non turbo fuel injection engine warning signal dash board driving , signal turns , always mean \? manual , say go authorized mazda dealer really good idea n't think \? wanna know engine warning signal comes anybody give advice authorized mazda dealer give \? youjip cs umn edu
eliot lanmola engr washington edu \( eliot \) subject lexus infiniti organization skulls 'r us lines 18 nntp posting host lanmola engr washington edu article 1993apr23 3245 msus1 msus edu w00026 tigger stcloud msus edu writes first , correct spelling nissan 's luxury automobile division infiniti infinity cares typos meaningless , synthetic names \? cars named person , e g honda , 'd respectful lexus gs300 v6 es300 v6 sc300 v6 wrong ! gs300 sc300 use straight , es300 uses v6 giant like toyota afford v6 inline 6 lineup , wo n't last long eliot
bowmanj csn org \( jerry bowman \) subject help ! ! ! \( buick regal \) nntp posting host fred colorado edu organization university colorado boulder , ocs lines 36 article ulowell ulowell edu cs ulowell edu \( gerry \) writes ! ! ! ! i'm going crazy 1981 buick regal 100 , 000 miles recently , go bump size , rear drivers 's side th e car feels like something hitting floor board noise going around corner less weight tire wh en hit bump whole brake drum today , checked car see th e muffler hitting something cant seem find anything eve seems tight ideas \? could bee shock \? way tell \? anything help greatly appreciated gerry check shocks mount , ends type loop \? , lack better term , bolt like piece sticking , rubber bushing loop bolt \? crushed allowing metal metal contact \? hope make sense good luck
reaper wixer bga com \( milligan \) subject 1994 mustang organization real time communications lines 32 article m248 103 bgsu edu andy bgsu edu \( greg \) writes article 1993apr22 192652 3032 virginia edu , jmm4h virginia edu \( blade runner \) wrote got remind ! yes , 's right , somtime fall , ford \( granddaddy cars \) introducing new , mega cool way fast accord drivers mustang 's supposed 100 streamlined , looking similar mach iii concept car ford came around january ca n't wait anyone hear anything recently \? yeah , looks like shit ! ! ! nothing like mach iii check latest issue popular mechanics , picture one looks like cross dodge daytona eagle talon , much car looks like produced 1990 , 1994 'll pick pm look maybe picture actual car , prototype \? saw mach iii impressed looked way japanese tear drop headlights reminded nissan nx glad n't hold '94 bought '93 maybe 'll work design little bit , listen consumers come nice looking '95 '96 always takes work kinks new design , e g f body camaro firebirds \( btw , new camaros look like shit \) milligan , software engineer , corporation , austin , texas com , reaper wixer bga com try real time communications ! \( 512 459 telnet wixer bga com \)
bowmanj csn org \( jerry bowman \) subject improvements automatic transmissions nntp posting host fred colorado edu organization university colorado boulder , ocs lines 51 article news rich bnr ca nosubdomain nodomain \( brent \) writes article 1993apr21 westminster ac uk , jkjec westminster ac uk \( shazad barlas \) writes wanted know auto , keep gear n gas stick gear 've never tried sure works screw \? 're bit debate ah yes , neutral slam know gm tested old 's 's shifting reverse forward gears repeatedly holding engine high rpms units hold incredibly well also recommended technique rock stuck vehicle mud think hydraulics task , mechanicals may object breaking something 0 02 agree durability old trannies gm never intentionally '68 firebird 400 ci conv gear , would leave trannie low \( read 1st \) , grab hold , hit pedal , tires grabbed , take reached 57 60mph turbo 400 auto would shift \( read 2nd \) leave 10 15 foot double stripped rubber ground everyone knew time quite impressed 60 mph trannie held fine motor mounts would last year tied motor large chains oh yea , fyi pontiac 400 ci bored 0 04 large valve heads holley 650 spread bore cam \( n't remember specs \) , headers , dual exhaust get \( conv , leather seats , power windows power top , ac , cruise etc \) oh yea , also pulled \( weights \) front removed lead pellet accelerator pedal \( damn us regulations \) oh , miss car ! ! ! 0 60 6 7 sec 6 14 mpg \( well n't miss mpg \) front wheels 4 ground three quick pedal bent pushrods , stripped rocker studs , every 6 12 months \( really wonder kind rev 's turning tach \) improvements automatic transmissions anyone seen one lately \? 'd buy back sec ! ! ! open top brent one smells little el del \? \? \?
arun g andrew cmu edu subject vascar organization freshman , biology , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 16 nntp posting host po3 andrew cmu edu know wrong place post , could n't find relevant newsgroups area pa , vascar \( cops measure speed time takes cross distance two white lines road , right \? \) commonly used \? i'm especially interested pittsburgh area \( specific locations , prior experiences , possible \) pa non pa , use vascar state , common rural , city , highway areas , etc i'm interested mainly speed least risk caught always detect radar , 's way fight vascar unless know white lines thanks lot , arun
goose \( kevin \) subject 89 honda crx dx nntp software pc tcp nntp keywords great , 45 mpg lines 11 nntp posting host ftp com reply goose organization ftp software , inc , north andover , massachusetts 1989 honda crx dx , white w blue int original owner , 59 , 500 miles , mostly highway recent tune , new battery oil changed every 3000 miles kenwood high power cassette receiver , w 4 6800 best reasonable offer interested , please e mail goose ftp com call 6pm 603 437 ask kevin
organization university illinois chicago , academic computer center uicvm uic edu subject best radar detector valentine 1 \? armory centerline com 1993apr22 convex com lines 21 've valentine 9 months agree best det available point trust reliability 've able tr ust valentine detector 've valentine sa ys moderate strong radar source front , 's mo likely speed trap detectors , 've gotten many 've begun ignore warnings n't want drive like one foot brake one gas pedal directional indicator really , really helps plus , info almost ys better less info matter smart radar detectors get , human br usually smarter , i'm going make based information hand , want info get plus , divide overall th radar signal number reported , 'll find bogey pretty weak therefore radar threat detectors , yo u 'll get one strong warning logic may faulty , think works okay although , must admit n't really noticed reflection problem one radar thomas
organization university illinois chicago , academic computer center uicvm uic edu subject saturn extended warranty distribution world shelley u washington edu lines 12 agree gaia even though saturn proved reliable car far , little money spent worth peace mind opinion , getting warranty enough case , 's cause anything needed repairing interior \( sunroof , windows , doors , etc \) could n't want mess engine plus think extra 3 years 24 hour roadside assistance must opted 5 year plan 375 thomas
ton berkeley edu \( young jin kim \) subject '89 toyota camry 9000 organization best lab , uc berkeley lines 4 distribution world nntp posting host chess berkeley edu toyota camry le 4 dr sedan ac power windows locks miles , asking 9000 pls call 510 526 send e mail account
tcora pica army mil \( tom coradeschi \) subject 's rush \( fast \) distribution usa organization elect armts div , us army armt rde ctr , picatinny arsenal , nj lines 32 nntp posting host b329 gator 3 pica army mil boyle cactus org \( craig boyle \) wrote marshatt feserve cc purdue edu \( zauberer \) writes wrat unisql uucp \( wharfie \) writes remember roads america designed speeds 80 meaning would safe 55 65 roads like autobahn smoother , , wider slightly banked well , 's news 1975 speed limit texas highways 75 speed limit new jersey turnpike \( 95 \) 70 speed limits nevada montana guess n't clear enough said roads designed speeds 80 still safe current 55 65 add saftey margin actually , roads designated safe 80 built 1950 's taking account kinds cars available number would much higher today cars , tires everything else lot except drivers tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet like herd performing elephants diarrhea massive , difficult redirect , awe inspiring , entertaining , source mind boggling amounts excrement least expect gene spafford , 1992
mothra nts uci edu \( keith chong \) subject lexus infiniti nntp posting host mothra nts uci edu organization university california , irvine lines 31 article 1993apr23 3245 msus1 msus edu w00026 tigger stcloud msus edu writes first , correct spelling nissan 's luxury automobile division infiniti infinity would also like clear question kind engines power lexus infiniti automobiles , since person remarked earlier posts lexus infiniti models v6 engines , time saying several manufacturer used v8 engines lexus ls400 v8 gs300 v6 es300 v6 sc400 v8 sc300 v6 gs300 sc300 inline 6 infiniti q45 v8 v6 g20 inline 4 \( must admit cannot remeber sure \) inline 4 correct hope helps keith
brian gothamcity jsc nasa gov \( brian donnell \) subject val 1 vs \( best radar detector \) nntp posting host arc nasa gov organization nasa arc information sciences division lines 20 article 1993apr22 convex com , tobias convex com \( allen tobias \) wrote live backyard folks make stalker radar system valentine 1 saved many , many , many times stealth revenue enhancement traps local area major brand detectors , , imho , nothing else even comes close v1 ! n't heard valentine 1 car driver auto magazines recommend bel detectors considering latest picks super wideband ka laser well also avoids radar detector detectors \( although really n't care since doubt 'll driving virginia anytime soon states also made detectors \? \) valentine 1 compare bel products \? brian donnell
mliggett silver ucs indiana edu \( matthew liggett \) subject v4 engines nntp posting host silver ucs indiana edu organization indiana university lines 30 pwe slipknot mit edu pwe slipknot mit edu \( paul w emery \) writes subject v4 , ford uk used v4 engines ford transit vans brings back memory seventies played band time something like 180 pounds four us bought 1967 tranny cart gear around terrible shape \( \) 's last owner pig farmer spent days cleaning putting partition seating 'til day died everytime turned fan defroster dried pig shit came flying vents ! ! ! back engine remember right v4 thing could haul , could fill equipment 8 people went like bat hell , course pollution controls engine gas leaded higher octane get mechanical fuel pump quit put electric one morris minor worked great ah fond memories saab iii believe pwe slipknot mit edu 'd like tanks paul w emery ron nasty magnet lab cambridge mass u mliggett silver ucs indiana edu \( mliggett iugold bitnet 'junk' collector , toys r us kid , antiauthoritarian , fan frogs , iguanas , herps
n3022 cray com \( jim knoll \) subject thanks '86 nova advice lines 14 nntp posting host reply n3022 cray com organization cray research , inc want thank people responded post weeks ago buying '86 nova 100 , 000 mi decided buy car month replaced front brake pads changed oil far problems surfaced received many suggestions encouragement purchase figured late thank better none thanks ! jim
mliggett silver ucs indiana edu \( matthew liggett \) subject v4 v6 v8 v12 vx \? nntp posting host silver ucs indiana edu organization indiana university lines 32 1993apr23 cs tulane edu finnegan nrlssc navy mil writes article apr22 202724 24131 engr washington edu eliot stalfos engr washington edu \( eliot \) writes subarus use 180 degree vees engines \) eliot would n't make i4 \? would really 4 \( henceforth referred underscore 4 \) \? horizontally opposed 4 great idea , actually smooth running low center gravity also used honda , , porsches \( others \? \) kenneth finnegan nrlssc navy mil mliggett silver ucs indiana edu \( mliggett iugold bitnet 'junk' collector , toys r us kid , antiauthoritarian , fan frogs , iguanas , herps
encore com \( r flynn \) subject wife wants convertible organization encore computer corporation , ft lauderdale , fl nntp posting host encore com lines 34 article usenet ucs indiana edu tom wetzel twetzel ucs indiana edu writes article usenet ins cwru edu andrew spencer , aas7 po cwru edu writes wife informed wants convertible next car recommend consider targa top convertible , drew made point well wife 20s convertible thing triumphs mid 40s , still appreciate open air prefer targa types much less wind noise , objects papers blowing around , foreign objects getting car one still almost advantages convertible last car tops \( big tops \) current car convertible imho , 're feel' , tops , open top , sunroofs , , whatever , n't cut 's substitute convertible 're sun beating , wind hair teeth , getting car noises associated wind , 're feel' go something least hole driver n't call convertible wonder targa tops would compare roll bar rollover situation course , 'd rather test car , , early 40s convertible accept substitute \( 'd rather sailing \) flynn w sunrise blvd \( 305 797 \) ft lauderdale , fl let 's punch uucp uunet ! gould ! sand bar crew dread internet encore com
com \( kenneth warren \) subject wife wants convertible organization net access bbs network lines 18 nntp posting host access com x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 's two cents best convertible money , imo , miata yes , 's small , 're buying second car , hope , n't need cargo room big car 's got enough power fun , 's like sports car ought \( i'm gonna regret \) top , manual , operates like dream 30 seconds one hand lower , much longer raise targa type cars nice , 're real convertibles ken warren secrets good life early nights , good food , excercise , clean living e mail com secrets happy life late nights , wild parties , sex , junk food !
adobe com \( gordon \) subject mercury villager minivan good buy \? organization adobe systems incorporated distribution usa lines 38 came across interesting information local public library researching minivans dealer price retail price minivan thinking purchasing someone told number base price slightly lower current price , still give idea pricing much negotiate mercury villager gs dealer retail base price air conditioning 729 857 rear defroster 143 168 calif emissions 87 102 7 passenger seating 282 332 fm radio \( cassette \) std std automatic transmission std std anti lock brakes std std destination 540 540 total dealer cost total retail price nissan quest xe dealer retail base price air conditioning std std rear defroster std std calif emissions 59 70 7 passenger seating std std fm cassette std std automatic transmission std std anti lock brakes 593 700 destination 540 540 total dealer cost total retail price
boi hp com \( wes fujii \) subject improvements automatic transmissions organization hewlett packard boise , idaho x newsreader tin version 1 1 4 pl6 lines 24 shazad barlas \( jkjec westminster ac uk \) wrote auto , keep gear n gas stick gear 've never tried sure works screw \? 're bit debate 've known people leave rear ends pieces , especially reasonable power transmit good traction road surface 're better wes fujii real motor oldsmobile rocket 455 hurst new generation olds wes banzai fujii olds boise , idaho hpdmd48 boi hp com
email sps mot com \( tom mathes \) subject locking lugnuts tire \? \? nntp posting host 223 7 248 44 organization motorola inc , austin , texas distribution usa lines 30 article 1993apr22 1 skcla monsanto com mas skcla monsanto com writes put locking tires , need tires \? \? john mas e mail address mas skcla monsanto com well , depends kind locking lugnuts previous car locking lugnuts weighed 2 others locking lugnuts factory equipment , according factory service manual , tire balancing technician mechanic supposed put 1 2 oz rim opposite locking nut always vibration problems stupid lugnuts since one ever service correctly eventually got rid locking lugnuts replaced standard lugnuts unfortunately , found technique 6 months got rid locking nuts \( present car , saturn sc , locking lugnuts bought dealer made specifically saturn made exactly weight non locking lugnuts \( said package verified \) n't vibration problems tires \( due nuts \) 12 , 000 ownership vibration problems , due poor job tire balancing tom
alter rchland vnet ibm com \( eric alter \) subject 1994 mustang reply alter rchland vnet ibm com disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host sultan rchland ibm com organization ibm rochester mn lines 30 article murdoch acc virginia edu , jmh hopper virginia edu \( jeffrey hoffmeister \) writes article 1993apr22 192652 3032 virginia edu jmm4h virginia edu \( blade runner \) writes got remind ! yes , 's right , somtime fall , ford \( granddaddy cars \) introducing new , mega cool way fast accord drivers mustang 's supposed 100 streamlined , looking similar mach iii concept car ford came around january ca n't wait anyone hear anything recently \? everything 've read correct , ford nothing skinning existing mustang , minor suspension modifications pictures 've seen indicate n't good job new mustang , nothing cycle 20 year old car jeff \? \? \? heard new engine slated mustang something like \( ok , one lines \) eric alter
george howell goucher wb3ffv ampr org \( george howell \) subject taurus misc distribution world organization goucher college , towson , md reply george howell goucher wb3ffv ampr org \( george howell \) lines 15 4 \) fairly cheap \( 150 \) ways increase performance car \? unfortunately , taurus exactly muscle car , i'm looking ways increase performance company florida sells computer chips supposedly get hp torque 3 0 n't address , saw ad hot rod car magazines also , could open exhaust \( get exhaust larger \) hope helps find anything else , let know 've got 1990 taurus l george howell george howell goucher wb3ffv ampr org
qwerty tunisia ssc gov \( kris schludermann \) subject rfi art clutchless shifting nntp posting host tunisia ssc gov organization superconducting super collider laboratory lines 11 article 1993apr23 ra oc com , lusky ccwf cc utexas edu \( jonathan r lusky \) writes shifting without clutch transmission cause transmission damage , question long grenade something \( trans 87 pulsar se , 3 5k miles , weak tranny first place \) please explain 200k miles usage clutchless shift problems krispy
andrew frip wv tek com \( andrew klossner \) subject mercury villager minivan good buy \? reply andrew frip wv tek com organization tektronix color printers , wilsonville , oregon lines 17 villager quest seem like best voyager copies come along since mazda mpv 'll agree villager mpv 's small 'd class suv extra seat get rear cargo space , shove back seat middle seat , eliminating leg room back villager price controversial use attack belts instead 3 point belts killed andrew klossner \( andrew frip wv tek com \)
ariel lerc nasa gov \( eric \) subject shifting without clutch organization nasa lewis research center lines 8 distribution usa nntp posting host ariel lerc nasa gov news software vax vms vnews 1 41 ok take car gear without using clutch \( car turned \) \? thanks advance please reply mail eric
mark sps mot com \( mark shaw \) subject dirty diesels \? nntp posting host 223 199 55 11 organization motorola western mcu design center , chandler arizona distribution na lines 44 article gte com , hhd0 harvey gte com \( horace dediu \) writes article nataraja opal12 , nataraja rtsg mot com \( kumaravel natarajan \) writes heard diesels considered cleaner burning gas engines emit less carbon monoxide , hydrocarbons , oxides nitrogen \( co , hc , nox \) put lot particulate matter heard something legislation discussed clean diesel emissions anything works install scrubbers diesels \? feasibility installing trucks cars \? would different catylitic converter \? 'd assume easier , since 're removing particulate matter instead converting gasses let 's hear people 's opinions really bugs emissions diesels cleanest , considered polluting banned passenger cars california bunch crap diesel fuel choice enviromental benefit europe 's illegal reason particulates nothing carbon annoyance worst nothing beats diesel cycle efficiency emissions , torque engine durability 's also cheaper diesels fall emissions mythology alcohol fuels main reason considered cleaner better emissions actually measure regulate also contribute additional emissions long determined harmful , suitable control limits defined current evidence pointing visible smog actually diesel emissions suspended particles less photo chemical reaction diesel particulates becoming major concern decreased lung capacity emit \( known \) gasoline evidence mounting beating gasoline engine death , may ignoring effects alternatives anyone thinks diesels great , go spend hours rush hour traffic cities europe diesels awful even burn eyes diesels clean relative current standards mark
dmunroe vcd hp com \( dave gauge \) subject choice gauges organization gauges r us lines 22 free reign design instrument cluster , gauges would choose beyond basic set \? consider basic set tach coolant temp \( cylinder head temp air cooled engines \) oil pressure amps speedo fuel others nice volts \( maybe basic set \) vacuum boost think others , ideas \? dave
joes telxon mis telxon com \( joe staudt \) subject v4 v6 v8 v12 vx \? organization telxon corporation lines 30 article fr7 usenet ins cwru edu aas7 po cwru edu \( andrew spencer \) writes previous article , finnegan nrlssc navy mil \( \) says article apr22 202724 24131 engr washington edu eliot stalfos engr washington edu \( eliot \) writes subarus use 180 degree vees engines \) eliot would n't make i4 \? would really 4 \( henceforth referred underscore 4 \) \? think technicaly known 180 degree vee configuration \( could wrong 've seen referred \) drew 've always heard referred horizontally opposed joe joseph staudt , telxon corp joes telxon com p box usenet like tetris people still akron , oh remember read \( 216 \) 867 3700 j heller
frankb sad hp com \( frank ball \) subject rfi art clutchless shifting organization , x newsreader tin version 1 1 4 pl6 lines 41 i'm familiar trannies used winston cup , trans cars 've played transmissions racing variety , dog clutches instead transmission dog clutches , gears always engaged moving dog clutches engages gears shafts motorcycle transmissions way shifting without clutch transmission cause transmission damage , question long grenade something \( trans 87 pulsar se , 3 5k miles , weak tranny first place \) curiosity , dog clutch different synchro transmission described sounds fact , little 've studied trannies , instructor referred synchros dogs said synonymous gears always meshed synchronized gearbox , slip synchro gears back forth shifting least , taught explain , por favour \? motorcycle transmissions n't synchros dogs sloppy maybe 6 10 teeth \( dogs \) side gears engage next gear forks slide gears back forth shift start apply pressure time clutch pulled \( clutch hand lever \) shift quickly try slow lazy shift grind , pop next gear chance grind n't neutral gears \( obviously , ca n't select shifter \) double clutching possibility speed shifting \( always heard clutchless shifting called \) works pretty well practice , usually use clutch especially lower gears think auto \( automobile \) similar , except dogs fine , addition rings gear teeth always engaged auto transmissions synchronized , may non synchro gears \( reverse sometimes first \) frank ball 1ur frankb sad hp com \( 707 \) 794 4168 work , hewlett packard \( 707 \) 794 3844 fax , \( 707 \) 538 3693 home 1212 valley house drive it175 , xt350 , seca 750 , '62 f 100 , pl510 park ca 4999 , law , ama , dod , i'm nra
jgoss gaia torolab ibm com \( jeff goss \) subject mercury villager minivan good buy \? reply wen king cs caltech edu 's message 23 apr 1993 14 27 32 gmt lines 28 gap caltech edu organization ibm toronto lab article gap caltech edu wen king cs caltech edu \( wen king su \) writes path eclipse ! yktnews watson ibm com ! hawnews watson ibm com ! newsgate watson ibm com ! news ans net ! europa eng gtefsd com ! howland reston ans net ! usc ! elroy jpl nasa gov ! nntp server caltech edu ! wen king wen king cs caltech edu \( wen king su \) newsgroups rec autos date 23 apr 1993 14 27 32 gmt organization california institute technology lines 9 references gap caltech edu sumax seattleu edu nntp posting host neptune cs caltech edu keywords mercury , villager , minivan , van , cars , article sumax seattleu edu smorris sumax seattleu edu \( steven morris \) writes villager quest seem like best voyager copies come along since mazda mpv nissan maxima engine paired maxima 4 speed auto trans excellent drive train , rest vehicle seems well engineered price controversial hmm last time checked , villager quest maxima engine , much powered weight engine , different state tune \( less hp maybe torque \) friend work regularly takes 6 people seems haul around fine jeff goss
davew cs umd edu \( david g wonnacott \) subject questions insurance companies \( esp geico \) summary switched erie insurance exchange distribution usa organization u maryland , dept computer science , coll pk , md 20742 lines 8 article 66758 mimsy umd edu davew cs umd edu \( david g wonnacott \) writes i'm considering switching geico insurance got numerous complaints geico , several helpful pointers \( good \) insurance companies decided go erie insurance exchange , seems combine high ratings net consumer reports low rates \( least \) thanks responses
bob ncube com \( bob kehoe \) subject mercury villager minivan good buy \? nntp posting host organization ncube computers , beaverton , oregon , u distribution usa lines 18 tested vehicles \( identically equipped \) , week long periods curiously \( consider test vehicles \) , found mercury higher build quality nissan either choice good , beware experience reasonable mileage v6 average city driving , 21 avg highway \( nissan leather ! \) villager 24k range nissan bob
infante acpub duke edu \( andrew infante \) subject changing oil self keywords n distribution usa organization duke university durham , n c lines 54 nntp posting host teer1 acpub duke edu article 1993apr15 dsd es com bmoss grinch sim es com \( brent woody moss \) writes article 1993apr15 8797 magnus acs ohio state edu , sorlin magnus acs ohio state edu \( steven j orlin \) writes article 1993apr15 cbnewsj cb att com rdb1 cbnewsj cb att com \( ronald j deblock jr \) writes avoid problems entirely installing oil drain valve place bolt one cars leaks 210 , 000 miles \( combined miles cars \) yes , someone would problem draining oil parking lot reach underneath , turn valve , forget trip home less likelyhood wrench personally recommend , installing 'special' locking drain plug keep vandals away \) steve worried someone stealing oil also finally decided drain plug welded shut works great ! figure add three four quarts oil light comes every month 's good better old wives tale changing oil filter every 3000 miles works , must say either 've fallen , guys really paranoid ! 're actually worried somebody stealing oil \? c'mon , think vandal 'll \? ! 's absolutely ridiculous ! besides , hard get car change oil \? say experience cars 've driven changed oil , mazda 323 pretty much pain , 've done , n't forget , gets easier ca n't imagine cars much worse mine andy infante listen everybody says , fact remains '71 bmw r60 5 've got get thing dod 2426 joan sutherland opinions , dammit , nothing anyone else ! ! !
rwf2 ns1 cc lehigh edu \( robert william fusi \) subject sale '91 toyota camry 9500 organization lehigh university lines 20 1991 toyota camry sale deluxe package 5 speed grey power windows power door locks fm cassette power steering power brakes 70k highway miles excellent condition 9500 rob fusi rwf2 lehigh edu \( 609 \) 397 2147 e mail info \( 914 \) 335 day \( 5 \) ask bob fusi
wrat unisql uucp \( wharfie \) subject questions insurance companies \( esp geico \) distribution usa organization unisql , inc , austin , texas , usa lines 8 article buck granite buck granite ma30 bull com \( ken buck \) writes \( unless live area gets frequent damaging hail storms \) , week march may sometimes fall \)
uxa cso uiuc edu \( david j \) subject slick 50 , good \? organization university illinois urbana lines 32 fermi clas virginia edu \( michael davis \) writes chances discussed death already , could someone kept discussion mail direct archive site basically , wondering slick 50 really says also , data support claim thanks info mike davis n't written data know experienced use 50 everything including car idle reduced operating temp 5 degrees havent used long enough test wear , people know farmer lives near used overhaul big least every year every year since using 50 went 5 years without overhaul also friend machine shop past rebuilt engines 200k miles thought time ran 50 since almost new found measuring internals engine showed amount wear would expected 30k miles 200k opinion works beware ! cat disclamer hey i'm student , 1974 cat hungry hell n't need one efi twin turbo david j liscence fly flies uxa cso uiuc edu
rfelix netcom com \( robbie felix \) subject warning \( please read \) keywords brick , rock , danger , gun , violent , teenagers organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 49 article 1993apr23 ctp com bpita ctp com \( bob pitas \) writes article 1r1d62 d6s agate berkeley edu bh anarres cs berkeley edu \( brian harvey \) writes rfelix netcom com \( robbie felix \) writes thousands kind teenagers volunteer local agencies help children , seniors , homeless \? hear , hear ! thanks , robbie also n't read much violence teenagers , george bush burying alive tens thousands unarmed iraqi 17 year olds , trying surrender , bulldozers hand , think true , without singling teenagers blame , violence socially acceptable used us 'd like discourage violence plenty work people ages well , n't right group , say n't think violence socially acceptable , means say used pistol toting heros , even thugs considered romantic think great got yelled parents playing cowboys indians \? n't think behavior somewhat encouraged back , fact think difference nowadays , teenager kills another one classroom california , day back old days , 'd never hear something like , period yeah , people act really shocked violence , though new species holocaust \? crusades \? salem witch trials \? religious persecutions middle ages \? violent acts carried name religion world \? early christians put death romans \? jews persecuted christians \? lot humans today ever know stats , far people planet 2 3 hundred years ago ! per capita acts violence probably significantly different hundred thousand years ago ! nothing new violence rf
c23st kocrsv01 delcoelect com \( spiros triantafyllopoulos \) subject v4 v6 v8 v12 vx \? organization delco electronics corp lines 17 article megatest com alung megatest com \( aaron lung \) writes v8 's , v10 's , v12 's man imagine valve adjustment one multiple non hydraulic valves cylinder \? \? ! ! aaron indianapolis motor museum day one early winners 4 valves per cylinder \( either front wheel drive wheel drive , think front wheel drive \) 1914 ! spiros spiros triantafyllopoulos c23st kocrsv01 delcoelect com software technology , delco electronics \( 317 \) 451 0815 gm hughes electronics , kokomo , 46904 post , therefore armm
root convex com \( superuser \) subject val 1 vs \( best radar detector \) nntp posting host hydra convex com organization convex computer corporation , richardson , tx , usa x disclaimer message written user convex computer corp opinions expressed user necessarily convex lines 28 article brian arc nasa gov brian gothamcity jsc nasa gov \( brian donnell \) writes article 1993apr22 convex com , tobias convex com \( allen tobias \) wrote live backyard folks make stalker radar system valentine 1 saved many , many , many times stealth revenue enhancement traps local area major brand detectors , , imho , nothing else even comes close v1 ! n't heard valentine 1 car driver auto magazines recommend bel detectors considering latest picks super wideband ka laser well also avoids radar detector detectors \( although really n't care since doubt 'll driving virginia anytime soon states also made detectors \? \) valentine 1 compare bel products \? brian donnell comparison bel wideband escort like detector directional indicators , bogey counter , radar signature analysis , remote display option , sensitive , well built , sent back !
rjwade rainbow ecn purdue edu \( robert j wade \) subject saturn extended warranty keywords warranty organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 36 article shelley u washington edu gaia carson u washington edu \( gaia \) writes article crhc uiuc edu vivek crhc uiuc edu \( vivek \) writes advice saturn extended warranty placed order saturn sl2 expected next week saturn retailer gave pamphlets extended warranty plan thinking first time new car buyer , seeking advice veterans esp bought saturns lately fyi , listed features saturn extended warranty plan car comes 3 years 36 , 000 mile bumper bumper warranty plan extended coverage covers cost repairs engine front wheel drive 24 hour roadside assistance program coverage term \( years miles \) deductible 5 60 , 000 6 75 , 000 6 100 , 000 50 375 550 725 say extended warranties ripoff , high profit item dealers really want point buying 5 60k , 6 , 6 100k get 3yr 36k free buying 2 24k , 3 , 3 64k keep mind look cost vs coverage another point many car companies routinely fix car problems warranty \? design manufacturing defects company owns , keeping customer happy , etc
brad buck viewlogic com \( bradford kellogg \) subject changing oil self originator brad buck nntp posting host buck organization viewlogic systems , inc lines 29 article 93111 cmuvm csv cmich edu , john foster cmuvm csv cmich edu writes find method much better , , although really hate bolt finally comes loose wrench hand come crashing face coming , 15 minutes later , change clothes \( time oil drained \) , ice entire face suck 20 tylenol ease pain later day proceed engine oil 's crazy try change oil cars one weekend go 3 bottles tylenol 2 bags ice oh , 's bad every time try change oil , forget shut engine first hot oil comes , blinds , engine starts , i'm screaming agony trying crawl car , grab red hot exhaust pipe get third degree burns hands screams intensify finally emerge car , struggle feet front car , whereupon radiator hose sprays super heated coolant engine , cylinder head explodes , piercing flesh fragments red hot iron happens every time i'm starting think pay mechanic 25 instead paying hospital 250 , 000 dealer 25 , 000 new car gets costly change oil every 3000 miles
davew cs umd edu \( david g wonnacott \) subject info opinions wanted cars article summary thoughts civic , corolla , 626 distribution na organization u maryland , dept computer science , coll pk , md 20742 lines 80 article ns1 nodak edu bell plains nodak edu \( robert bell \) writes article 1993apr13 magnus acs ohio state edu jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu \( john f nielsen \) writes article fibercom com rrg rtp fibercom com \( rhonda gaines \) writes i'm market new car currently '90 mazda mx 6 dx served fine however , 'd like get 4 door car since n't thought moving around 2 door car criteria 4 door , c , fm cassette , quick acceleration , cruise control , decent rear seat \( husband 6 \) must also 20k preferably closer 11 15k range \( probably rule accord \) '93 cars caught eye toyota corolla , camry , mazda 626 , pontiac grand , pontiac grand prix , honda accord , \( civic 's roomy enough still comes 4 door model \) , hyundai sonata , maybe even small oldsmobile , although opinions , benchmarks , recommendations , etc welcome civic still come 4 door model wife looked quite seriously 626 , prizm \( corolla \) , civic , well cars impressions three seemed well built features wanted similar features want except cruise control , want manual transmission considering anti lock brakes also hate automatic seatbelts think airbag plus general , comfort performance significant specific 's 's listed mazda 626 comfortable roomy theoretically get abs dx model , though practice hard find base price base model includes numerous little things like tach , variable speed wipers , rear defroster , 60 40 split folding rear seat expensive many cars listed honda civic dx gets significantly better mileage cars listed comfortable front seat adjustable seat belt mounting abs without ex model \( includes 1000 's things like sunroof \) geo prizm toyota corolla seats comfortable us \( mileage may vary \) adjustable seat belt mounting get abs without lots extras saturn sl2 quite comfortable , though sl1 less attack belts dodge spirit real outstanding 's , seemed generally ok rear seat fold chevy comes abs standard lower would buy car safety ratings consumer reports \( first 3 cars \) suspension n't feel stiff others \( would \) honda accord toyota camry expensive 626 , minds , significantly better probably gave disproportionately low consideration big 3 , due \( \) wife 's family 's general dislike chrysler products , \( b \) gm products owned parents mine \( c \) taurus comes automatic transmission , find seat tempo uncomfortable , escort attack belts air bag 'll probably end 626 saw 626 dx c cassette advertised \( washington post , april 14 , think \) , local dealer says match price probably get 626 \( maybe tomorrow \) main question mind whether factory order preference order get one abs , whether dealership run price lot
rjwade rainbow ecn purdue edu \( robert j wade \) subject saturn extended warranty organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 26 article 93113 uicvm uic edu uicvm uic edu writes agree gaia even though saturn proved reliable car far , little money spent worth peace mind interesting point people really buying coverage , buying , marketing folks love selling suggest people choose engage minds worry rather buying opinion , getting warranty enough case , 's cause anything needed repairing interior \( sunroof , windows , doors , etc \) could n't want mess engine 'd surprised much little knack stuff cost \? c goes \? steering rack \? \? n't get wrong i'm extended warranties ripoff plus think extra 3 years 24 hour roadside assistance must opted 5 year plan 375 extra 3 yrs \? realize first 3yr 36k free warranty comes car thomas
cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu \( oriolefan uiuc \) subject v4 v6 v8 v12 vx \? organization university illinois urbana lines 12 eliot stalfos engr washington edu \( eliot \) writes subarus use 180 degree vees engines \) eliot 180 degree v 6 flat six engines \? \? \? chintan amin university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig construction hard hat area
cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu \( oriolefan uiuc \) subject v4 v6 v8 v12 vx \? organization university illinois urbana lines 27 aas7 po cwru edu \( andrew spencer \) writes previous article , finnegan nrlssc navy mil \( \) says article apr22 202724 24131 engr washington edu eliot stalfos engr washington edu \( eliot \) writes subarus use 180 degree vees engines \) eliot would n't make i4 \? would really 4 \( henceforth referred underscore 4 \) \? think technicaly known 180 degree vee configuration \( could wrong 've seen referred \) drew flat engine \? \? \? chintan amin university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig construction hard hat area
chriss netcom com \( chris silvester \) subject production hold '93 firebird camaro w 6 speed organization netcom online communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) distribution usa lines 30 tip gary \( cc utah edu \) got phone pontiac systems customer service whatever , inquired rumoured production hold formula firebird trans btw , talking dealer bought car got nowhere routed firebird specialist , able confirm fact case first , problem 3 23 performance axle ratio would n't go details , n't know shipped problems , production held simply n't proper parts supplier say , pretty vague , anyone else knows anything , feel free respond supposedly , problem solved second , shortage parts somehow related six speed manual transmission posting , production hold cars claimed part delay wanting use inferior quality parts car , therefore wait right high quality parts i'm positive applies camaro well , i'm guessing would anyone else shed light \? chris chris silvester man capable getting elected president chriss sam com means allowed job chriss netcom com douglas adams , 's guide galaxy
issa cwis unomaha edu \( issa el \) subject lexus infiniti organization university nebraska omaha lines 41 mothra nts uci edu \( keith chong \) writes article 1993apr23 3245 msus1 msus edu w00026 tigger stcloud msus edu writes first , correct spelling nissan 's luxury automobile division infiniti infinity would also like clear question kind engines power lexus infiniti automobiles , since person remarked earlier posts lexus infiniti models v6 engines , time saying several manufacturer used v8 engines lexus ls400 v8 gs300 v6 es300 v6 sc400 v8 sc300 v6 gs300 sc300 inline 6 infiniti q45 v8 v6 g20 inline 4 \( must admit cannot remeber sure \) inline 4 correct hope helps keith subject , n't numbers car names engine size liters \? e ls400 4 engine , sc300 3 0 liter sport coupe q45 4 \( similar , kinda , bmw mb deal \) issa
subject buy back byuvm bitnet organization brigham young university lines 9 dealership today looking buying car salesman showing us something calling buy back car given back new model next year \? , many miles good number types cars generally good buy \? thanks , ellen
markm bigfoot sps mot com \( mark monninger \) subject question nntp posting host 223 250 10 7 reply rapw20 email sps mot com organization sps distribution usa lines 13 article shelley u washington edu carson u washington edu \( diana smith \) writes ex husband used even tho' ugly names one humphrey 's pretty good friend audi named murphy mark
sorlin magnus acs ohio state edu \( steven j orlin \) subject changing oil self keywords n nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university distribution usa lines 33 article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu \( andrew infante \) write 're actually worried somebody stealing oil \? ahhh yes , andrew , meet , oil , draining leave stranded c'mon , think vandal 'll \? ! let guess , 're hudson ohio \? \? 's absolutely ridiculous ! get see world vandal , really hated someone , maybe someone knew something cars , course would look types valves could undo especially , special oil drain plugs , radiator well putting bad things gas would never vandalize someone 's car , , would probably approach , i'm sure i'm one thinks way steve
joe advtech uswest com \( joe thielen \) subject deal blue book value auto \? organization u west advanced technologies lines 48 nntp posting host advtech uswest com article news cso uiuc edu cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu \( oriolefan uiuc \) writes newton convex com \( vicki newton \) writes process buying new auto n't decided yet whether sell current car trade part new auto purchase know blue book value car 2825 offered give blue book value car wondering standard measure negotiating resale price hope get money someone else exactly blue book value based \? know year \( 88 \) car low mileage \( 50 , 000 \) excellent working condition dings exterior \( nothing major \) facts alter fair selling p rice car \? looking rip anyone , naturally want get best price car thanks million , veek think blue book nada handbook used car prices , \? blue book value given retail wholesale value \? \? \? blue book value n't set stone , though low milage , extra addons stuff like increase resale price car , may want head local library borrow friends blue book read sort stuff paid 400 bb \( retail \) '87 civic 1990 , perfect condition 14 5k miles guy desparate sell , new kid way , etc , good price remeber , buyer , sort brains , using blue book , pick fair price chintan amin llama uiuc edu chintan amin university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig construction hard hat area mileage chart available book usually goes class car year usually end adding hundred dollars retail price consumer reports also number call get quote area friend mine used , quite happy service believe cost 10 00 joe
joe advtech uswest com \( joe thielen \) subject help 89 mitsubishi galant gs transmission organization u west advanced technologies lines 51 nntp posting host advtech uswest com article phakt usc edu usc edu \( total stranger \) writes hi , need help problem 1989 mitsubishi galant gs transmission car 5 speed manual since car bought new , shifting 2nd 3rd , unless slowly carefully , makes popping hitting sound dealer mitsubishi customer service \( reached 800 \) say normal car \? year ago , , stick shift handle got stuck attempting put reverse 1 shifter would budge clutch effect 2 front tires would budge , even clutch fully depressed 3 clutch released engine would die 4 assuming gear engaged shifter stuck , could make car move acted neutral \( except dying clutch released \) 5 finally able release shifter someone rock car back forth \( less inch \) , depressed clutch shifter 6 shifter acted normally happened , took dealer , checked clutch , k checked transmission , k exact problem couple months ago , last week dealer says nothing mitsubishi \( 800 \) says never heard problem , dealer could reproduce problem car three occurances , car parked head first garage , since front wheels stuck , car could towed dealer releasing shifter \( hence temporarily solving problem \) dealer , mitsubishi , refused send someone check car stuck know wrong transmission \( shifting 2nd 3rd \) , getting stuck random , ca n't get dealer fix need help mechanical problems , handle mitsubishi hints suggestions greatly appreciated , sorry bore long post thanks , try another dealer sometimes sophistication equipment etc better one dealer another may also find another dealer willing help problem joe
callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu \( james p callison \) subject manual shift bigots nntp posting host uokmax ecn uoknor edu organization engineering computer network , university oklahoma , norman , ok , usa lines 39 article 1993apr22 ericsson se etxmst sta ericsson se writes turn question around , automatics common us \? people like \( people actually need \) guess tried couple manuals torque rich v8 's sixties clutches turned real killers use feet depress , lived yeah , right real muscle cars manual transmission , clutches n't heavy shelby american used plenty high powered , high torque engines , carroll put autos cars people wanted \( ! heretics ! burn , burn defiling shelby auto ! \) real \( ultimate sports car time \) big block fords turned amounts power torque , none automatics also , automatic v8 engine real fun drive yeah , call gear shift middle curve fun \) personally would love '66 500 7 liter coupe , fire breathing 427 four floor \( go along side '66 500 fire breathing 390 three tree love sound dual exhaust morning ! \) 's comparison real american muscle car car big engine automatic , imho james james p callison microcomputer coordinator , u oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i'm engineer , play one work forecast calls thunder '89 bird sc 's hell thing , killing man take away 's ever gonna munny , unforgiven
callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu \( james p callison \) subject warning \( please read \) nntp posting host uokmax ecn uoknor edu organization engineering computer network , university oklahoma , norman , ok , usa lines 44 article drutx att com klf druwa att com \( franklinkl \) writes article constellation ecn uoknor edu , callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu \( james p callison \) writes normally unloaded colt delta glove box loaded magazine handy \( perfectly legal oklahoma \) times i'm travelling inter state , keep unloaded w 44 magnum revolver glove box , speed loader pocket \( legal everywhere , federal law , illinois state police hanged \) carrying pistol , loaded unloaded , glove compartment , considered carrying concealed weapon colorado illegal without concealed weapons permit unless law changed recently , carrying weapon openly legal colorado concealing illegal read newspaper account last year police stopped car traffic observed 357 magnum revolver sitting seat driver could cited possessing carrying weapon concealed article stated gun discovered glove box , would considered crime carrying glove box covered i'm sure thinking legal oklahoma inter state travel , long legal point destination , gun carried locked compartment box \( glove box specifically excluded \) separate ammo , legal title 19 , chapter 44 , section 94 \( 9 \? forget , copy regs home \) us code , unfortunately , prevented theft state troopers certain state \( shall remain nameless protect hopelessly stupid \) state 's law gee , thought federal law state law james james p callison microcomputer coordinator , u oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i'm engineer , play one work forecast calls thunder '89 bird sc 's hell thing , killing man take away 's ever gonna munny , unforgiven
gwm spl1 spl loral com \( gary w mahan \) subject lexus infiniti organization loral software productivity laboratory lines 7 n't numbers car names engine size liters \? e ls400 4 engine , sc300 3 0 liter sport coupe q45 4 \( similar , kinda , bmw mb deal \) note bmw doesnt always follow convention example , 1980 1 8 liter engine 1979 2 0 liter
prism gatech edu \( james b atkins \) subject honda mailing list \? organization georgia institute technology lines 2 honda mailing list , subscribe \?
marshatt feserve cc purdue edu \( zauberer \) subject 's rush \( fast \) organization purdue university distribution usa lines 19 article tcora b329 gator 3 pica army mil tcora pica army mil \( tom coradeschi \) writes useless road design , speed rate discussion deleted actually , roads designated safe 80 built 1950 's taking account kinds cars available number would much higher today cars , tires everything else lot except drivers thank ! travis disclamer ideas expressed fact employer , since none \) e mail , flame , marshatt feserve cc purdue edu
erini enterprise ifp uiuc edu \( erini doss \) subject cellular organization university illinois urbana lines 11 need get info cellular antennas biggest companies market \? much antenna cost \? specs antennas \( gain , \) \? contact person \? thank email erini enterprise ifp uiuc edu
marshatt feserve cc purdue edu \( zauberer \) subject locking lugnuts tire \? \? organization purdue university distribution usa lines 18 article 1993apr22 1 skcla monsanto com mas skcla monsanto com writes put locking tires , need tires \? \? john mas e mail address mas skcla monsanto com bought set 's months back decided add locks could keep new rims n't balance problem yet assume might particular type stock nuts rims balanced new 's speed shop finest setting bal machine , helps zauberer aka travis
erini enterprise ifp uiuc edu \( erini doss \) subject industry organization university illinois urbana lines 10 main locations \? name ac contact person \? thanks email erini enterprise ifp uiuc edu
sr hp com \( bob \) subject get new york taxi \? distribution na organization hp sonoma county \( srsd mwtd mid \) x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 2 lines 41 wharfie \( wrat unisql uucp \) wrote article srgenprp sr hp com sr hp com \( bob \) writes hose h e dork r k oh , really \? 's posted earlier another thread thrash others making simple mistakes flaunt wonderful vi skill , think make feel well look \( spelled right \) years assaulted others offensive language , etc content many posts , appear lot useful information share people , gets come across abusive smart ass wharfie \( wrat unisql uucp \) wrote article mentor cc purdue edu marshatt feserve cc purdue edu \( z \) writes remember roads america designed speeds 80 meaning would safe 55 65 roads like autobahn smoother , , wider slightly banked well , 's news 1975 speed limit texas highways 75 speed limit new jersey turnpike \( 95 \) 70 speed limits nevada montana east becoming hidden trees 1 , 000 ft continued left strait north wanted turn north , checked south lane , rolled straight r g h
marshatt feserve cc purdue edu \( zauberer \) subject choice gauges organization purdue university distribution usa lines 34 article vcd hp com dmunroe vcd hp com \( dave gauge \) writes free reign design instrument cluster , gauges would choose beyond basic set \? consider basic set tach must coolant temp \( cylinder head temp air cooled engines \) must oil pressure must amps 've seen amps volts , would go volts speedo must ask \? fuel would like know much gas course gauge dose n't tell could see one favor warning light say , others nice volts \( maybe basic set \) vacuum boost ! would vacuum gauge dash ! travis disclamer ideas expressed fact employer , since none \) e mail , flame , marshatt feserve cc purdue edu
tut cairo eng sun com \( bill bill \) subject comparing saabs bmw 's summary organization sun microsystems inc , mountain view , ca lines 13 nntp posting host cairo edwards world std com \( jonathan edwards \) writes bmw 's suck snow aggressive snows , plus hundred pounds sand back , still try avoid driving snow happily took saab conditions without worry would say single design flaw bmw reasonable sum , get bmw traction control torque sensing \( limited slip \) rear differential since fwd car , including saab , kind front differential , since would exacerbate torque steer , bmw traction control theoretical advantage snow course weight distribution skinny tires could affect
chan ee rochester edu \( chan \) subject radial touring tires summary comments bf goodrich radial tires keywords tire organization univ rochester , college engineering applied science distribution na hi looking tires would like hear experience bf goodrich radial tires touring especially size radial snow , wet weather \? quiet tires \? touring many miles last \? believe every way equal better radial right \? chan
amiller almaden ibm com \( alex miller \) subject choice gauges reply amiller almaden ibm com \( alex miller \) organization ibm almaden research center lines 53 nntp posting host allez almaden ibm com i'm going drive public road need speedometer , odometer helps navigation 1965 chevy bare minimum engine temp oil press warning lights fuel gauge 1983 vw tach , water temp , voltmeter oil temp gauges turbo car , 'd want vacuum manifold boost gauge oil pressure gauge nice , reassuring gauge look car air cooled , would substitute cyl head temp gauge water temp gauge years ago , looked audi quattro si coupe bobby used win 1986 peak hill climb gauge layout , left right , top bottom speedometer fuel tranny press temp differential water temp temp big orange tach oil press warning light oil temp boost oil press alex amiller almaden ibm com
eliot stalfos engr washington edu \( eliot \) subject comparing saabs bmw 's organization skulls 'r us lines 21 nntp posting host 192 42 145 4 article exodus eng sun com tut cairo eng sun com \( bill bill \) writes reasonable sum , get bmw traction control torque sensing \( limited slip \) rear differential traction control far optional feature one buys cars thing torque sensing differential torque sensing differential type lsd , lsd 's torque sensing viscous coupled \( opposed viscous \) rotational sensing , torque sensing matter , traction control systems use abs sensors pulse braking older whatever familiar workings eliot
rhorwell crab network \( roland \) subject car ! \? reply rhorwell atc boeing com organization boeing computer services lines 24 article 2550 ericsson se , etxmst sta ericsson se \( markus strobl 98121 \) writes article ctron news ctron com , smith ctron com \( lawrence c smith \) writes article 1993apr21 reed edu , rseymour reed edu \( robert seymour \) writes article 1993apr20 wam umd edu lerxst wam umd edu \( 's thing \) writes called bricklin manufactured 70s engines ford , n't bricklin six cylinder \? confusing delorean \? sure delorean v8 delorean yucky prv v6 engine joint venture \( note spelling \) , renault volvo prv engine mighty boring markus markus , noting spelling \? n't good \? \) n america \? mean \? roland ,
david trsvax tandy com subject dirty diesels \? nf id r opal12 trsvax 000 304 nf trsvax tandy com ! david apr 23 13 18 00 1993 lines 9 would n't want anyone make front living room wall drive diesel powered 60 tank , shooting super hot soot curtains freshly made words , please n't flame ! yup , 'll answer one
deca cs umn edu \( youjip \) subject manual advice needed summary oil keywords mazda mx 6 '88 nntp posting host deca cs umn edu organization university minnesota lines 4 manual transmission 5 speed difficult engage gear oil change improve situation \? think favorable oil change period \? youjip
brother mrcnext cso uiuc edu \( jesse \) subject choice gauges organization university illinois urbana lines 13 dmunroe vcd hp com \( dave gauge \) writes b b think others , ideas \? dave well , bmw like little light turns running gas , 's big help got turbo , gauge must could , 'd like gauges possible car , ca n't everything \?
jgoss gaia torolab ibm com \( jeff goss \) subject v4 v6 v8 v12 vx \? fr7 usenet ins cwru edu 1993apr23 telxon mis telxon com organization ibm toronto lab lines 41 reply joes telxon mis telxon com 's message fri , 23 apr 1993 17 28 24 gmt article 1993apr23 telxon mis telxon com joes telxon mis telxon com \( joe staudt \) writes newsgroups rec autos path eclipse ! yktnews watson ibm com ! newsgate watson ibm com ! news ans net ! howland reston ans net ! newsserver jvnc net ! louie ! udel ! news intercon com ! psinntp ! telxon mis telxon com ! joes joes telxon mis telxon com \( joe staudt \) organization telxon corporation references apr22 202724 24131 engr washington edu 1993apr23 cs tulane edu fr7 usenet ins cwru edu date fri , 23 apr 1993 17 28 24 gmt lines 30 article fr7 usenet ins cwru edu aas7 po cwru edu \( andrew spencer \) writes previous article , finnegan nrlssc navy mil \( \) says article apr22 202724 24131 engr washington edu eliot stalfos engr washington edu \( eliot \) writes subarus use 180 degree vees engines \) eliot would n't make i4 \? would really 4 \( henceforth referred underscore 4 \) \? think technicaly known 180 degree vee configuration \( could wrong 've seen referred \) drew 've always heard referred horizontally opposed joe kinda dull 've always liked subarus use , 911 bmw twins \( 's motorcycle 2 many wheels \) jeff goss
dspalme mke ab com \( diane \) subject wife wants convertible organization allen bradley co lines 35 nntp posting host tinman mke ab com x newsreader tin 1 1 pl4 aas7 po cwru edu \( andrew spencer \) writes nuet ke pts mot com \( keith nuetzman x3153 p7625 \) writes help ! ! ! wife informed wants convertible next car jp vllyoak resun com \( jeff perry \) writes fyi , last week pbs show motor week gave results thought best cars '93 convertible category , \( snip , snip \) porsche patent targa name \? mean , convertible means top , del sol certainly center lifts would term targa \( unless porsches gonna sue \) know rear window rolls , still hardly consider car convertible drew go , course porsche n't patent targa name case , would fiat \? suppose technically del sol convertible literal sense , certainly open topped car addition , rear section behind removable top makes car safer convertible \( flame \) diane dspalme mke ab com
subject information needed oneb almanac bc ca organization old frog 's almanac , nanaimo , b c keywords mazda mx 6 lines 16 deca cs umn edu \( youjip \) writes hi ! first time post news group days , stu engine warning signal dash board driving , si wanna know engine warning signal comes anybody low oil pressure , usually could oil pump , checked oil lately \? \? \? mc oneb almanac bc ca \( mark chase \) old frog 's almanac \( home almanac unix users group \) \( 604 \) 245 3205 \( v32 \) public access usenet \( 604 \) 245 4366 \( 2400x4 \) vancouver island , british columbia waffle xenix 1 64
netcom com \( richard \) subject service indicator bmw organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 5 save youself cash take bmw mechanic idiot lights buy pen write change oil every 3000 mi fine follow regular service intervals r book also
qazi csd4 csd uwm edu \( aamir hafeez qazi \) subject mercury villager minivan good buy \? organization university wisconsin milwaukee lines 22 reply qazi csd4 csd uwm edu nntp posting host 129 89 7 4 originator qazi csd4 csd uwm edu article gap caltech edu , wen king cs caltech edu \( wen king su \) article sumax seattleu edu smorris sumax seattleu edu \( steven morris \) writes villager quest seem like best voyager copies come along since mazda mpv nissan maxima engine paired maxima 4 speed auto trans excellent drive train , rest vehicle seems well engineered price controversial hmm last time checked , villager quest maxima engine , much powered weight yes , come maxima gxe engine maxima se transmission decent power minivan also check aamir qazi aamir qazi qazi csd4 csd uwm edu care \? 'd rather watch drying paint
callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu \( james p callison \) subject dealer cheated wrong odometer reading need help ! distribution usa nntp posting host uokmax ecn uoknor edu organization engineering computer network , university oklahoma , norman , ok , usa lines 45 article shelley u washington edu hardy u washington edu \( yong je lim \) writes story bought car two weeks ago finally get hold previous owner car got maintanence history car '91 '92 , instrument pannel car replaced odometer also reset zero therefore , true meter reading reading replacement plus current mileage shows mile difference comparing mileage odometer disclosure dealer never told anything important story hope return car full refund u think possible \? anyone similar experiences \? comments appreciated thanks tricky situation previous owner n't inform dealer odometer change , previous owner committed fraud , may liable dealer may also liable previous owner notified dealer , previous owner dash replaced dealer , previous owner dash changed legally , records search car turn fact odometer altered dealer changes speedometer , report \( goes car 's service record manufacturer , title , remember correctly dealer told old mileage , etc sent ford bird 's speedo replaced \) odometer set old mileage , must ca n't \( eg , electrically driven odometers \) mileage old odometer must written permanent sticker door frame vehicle either way , change done legally , records search \( dealer almost certainly \) turned call state 's department transportation public safety motor vehicles tag agent find certain rights state 's attorney general know certain \) james james p callison microcomputer coordinator , u oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i'm engineer , play one work forecast calls thunder '89 bird sc 's hell thing , killing man take away 's ever gonna munny , unforgiven
aas7 po cwru edu \( andrew spencer \) subject mr2 noisy engine organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 22 reply aas7 po cwru edu \( andrew spencer \) nntp posting host slc5 ins cwru edu previous article , aas7 po cwru edu \( andrew spencer \) says previous article , eliot lanmola engr washington edu \( eliot \) says article usenet pa dec com tomacj opco enet dec com \( thunderbirds go ! ! ! \) writes nice theory bad mr2 's never came four cylinder 2 0 liters like 1 6 \? nonturbo 's 2 2 \? let clarify , think 2 0 litres also understand anyone using balancing shafts four cylinders , must pay saab royalty using patented design like porsche 's 3 0 i4 already corrected , believe may , actually apologies thread c ya drew
v064mb9k ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( neil b gandler \) subject opinions 88 89 pontiac bonneville organization university buffalo lines 10 news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host ubvmsb cc buffalo edu market buy used car particularly interested pontiac bonneville budget 7 8 thousand would able afford 88 89 engines available time know n't redesign 1992 model year reliability past models would appreciate advice information neil gandler
stafford lobby ti com \( ron stafford \) subject changing oil self lines 30 nntp posting host 192 153 237 26 organization article 93111 cmuvm csv cmich edu john foster cmuvm csv cmich edu writes date wednesday , 21 apr 1993 12 47 50 edt john foster cmuvm csv cmich edu subject changing oil self drew kinglear cs colorado edu \( drew eckhardt \) article pod sour sw oz au pod sour sw oz au \( paul o'donnell \) wri 1qgi8einnhs5 skeena ucs ubc ca yiklam unixg ubc ca \( yik chong lam \) writes hello , find method much better , , although really hate bolt finally comes loose wrench hand come crashing face coming , 15 minutes later , change clothes \( time oil drained \) , ice entire face suck 20 tylenol ease pain later day proceed engine oil 's crazy try change oil cars one weekend go 3 bottles tylenol 2 bags ice john everyone trusted tools \) ron stafford texas instruments incorporated \( 214 \) 917 2050 p box , ms stafford lobby ti com dallas , texas
ak954 yfn ysu edu \( albion h bowers \) subject car saftey important \? organization st elizabeth hospital , youngstown , oh lines 61 reply ak954 yfn ysu edu \( albion h bowers \) nntp posting host yfn ysu edu previous article , jimf centerline com \( jim frost \) says jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu \( john f nielsen \) writes article armory centerline com jimf centerline com \( jim frost \) writes tcorkum bnr ca \( trevor corkum \) writes figure 30mph collisions brick walls n't common enough spend much extra money protection , lots low speed collisions worry get 30 mph accident may reconsider 've one really life something value car 's looks consider insurance , may happen often , 'll sure glad got safe car granted tests n't perfect 'd much rather car well test car horribly raise valid point , 's tradeoff much money want spend kind protection \? could buy volvo , saab , get really good crash protection \( luxuries \) 'll pay significantly case 's question cars beyond budget 've two major auto accidents , multiple car worst head three car collision \( intersection one person ran stop sign \) cases stopped place go \( saw coming times \) even high speed head collisions beneficial item good old 3 point seatbelt nowadays , least us , get airbag get 3 point belt \( presumably \) get added safety benefit well 's something certainly look inexpensive cars really want add safety car , simply add cage car available cheap \( 500 usa \) add four five six point belts walk away collisions otherwise instead people spending little extra money , get legislation says gov't must mandate minimal level protection everyone one significant factor improving one 's safety get training improve safety single investment drive ride defensively \( mean old stick mud \) people tend autos average \( probably top 15th driving ability \) , still sometimes overlook obvious 've two driving schools , three riding schools motorcycle worthwhile investment \( besides , lot fun \) safety make , n't provide adequate level protection n't mean leave go al bowers dod 900 alfa ducati hobie kottke 'blad iaido nasa well goodness sakes n't know girls ca n't play guitar \? mary chapin carpenter
subject dirty diesels \? stubbs hawk cs ukans edu \( jerry stubbs \) distribution na organization university kansas computer science dept lines 5 yeah , hate follow exhaust ground level diesels well maintained , either , seems run long people keep going long top end worn
dchan cisco com \( derek chan \) subject service indicator bmw organization cisco lines 12 distribution world nntp posting host cisco com originator dchan cisco com anyone know reset service indicator bmw changing oil \? also , 3 , 000 miles far one five yellow service indicators went means n't need oil service reach 15 , 000 miles n't make sense idea \? ps cause first oil change 1 , 200 miles derek
markm bigfoot sps mot com \( mark monninger \) subject bimmer vs beamer nntp posting host 223 250 10 7 reply rapw20 email sps mot com organization sps distribution usa lines 19 article andrei andrei uucp \( andrei \) writes back building round tail light bimmers \( red , generated , eating \) yuppies got market \( became beamers hood ornaments started yep , 's noticed stopped replacing hood badge second third one \( 12 00 \) 2002 drivers used flash headlight greeting try flashing headlights driver see kind look get usually check radar detector think 're cop mark
tom wetzel twetzel ucs indiana edu subject old corvettes low insurance \? nntp posting host twetzel ucs indiana edu organization indiana university x useragent nuntius v1 1 netcom com lines 25 article netcom com richard newton ii , rjn netcom com writes related note , seem sane price '67 convertible corvette good condition \? one determine things \? cr used car magazine n't list '67 corvettes \) net wisdom look avoid \? thanks advance ! rich , first might want join \( vettes compaq com \) search acquisition 67 20k sounds right wrong engine , condition 3 car means car may significant investment value could excellent driver hobby car also want get copy corvette black book immediately n't leave home \( look vettes \) without since contemplating spending 20k , might want invest hours reading corvette buyer 's guide purchase tape buy corvette tape shows check damage , etc many many factors affect value , road worthiness , repair expense proposed 67 list much long go join 100 current corvette owners \( many 60s vintage vettes \) available help pubs mentioned available mid america designs \( 800 \) 637 several corvette parts sources good luck ! ! ! tom \( '68 327 '79 cruiser \)
dwjz bnr ca \( doug zolmer \) subject manual shift bigots nntp posting host reply dwjz bnr ca \( doug zolmer \) organization bell northern research ltd lines 24 article 1993apr21 1501 rtsg mot com , kissane black berkeley edu \( john g kissane \) writes matter interest anyone know autos popular us europe rare \? \? \? wondering many cities , traffic signals every 100 feet \( , course \( well ottawa anyway \) \) roads shifting manually real pain left foot also , canadians stupid learn shift manually \( gee , gotta co two feet clutch , brake accelerator , gotta steer , shift operate signals \( optional \) radio two hands duh ca n't done \) also , north american made cars come automatic standard equipment , bother manual car shift addition money john kissane motorola ireland ltd , 'o o' uucp uunet ! ! ! industrial estate , \( \) \( \) internet rtsg mot com , , ireland u doug zolmer internet dwjz bnr ca disclaimer opinions 1 3 5 bell northern research ltd ottawa , ontario , canada dept service control point routing services design 2 3 r
tartarus uwa edu au \( desmond chan \) subject info merc 300e 2 6 summary questions merc 300e 2 6 keywords questions merc 300e 2 6 reader , anyone tell reliability performance merc 300e 2 6 years 91 anyone please specify weaknesses \( \) g organization university western australia lines 3 nntp posting host tartarus uwa edu au x newsreader nn version 6 4 19 1 cheek
bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu \( brian j queiser \) subject 1994 mustang nntp posting host top magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 96 petebre elof iit edu \( peterson \) writes jmh hopper virginia edu \( jeffrey hoffmeister \) writes jmm4h virginia edu \( bald runner \) writes got remind ! yes , 's right , somtime fall , ford \( granddaddy cars \) introducing new , mega cool way fast accord drivers mustang 's supposed 100 streamlined , looking similar mach iii concept car ford came around january ca n't wait anyone hear anything recently \? everything 've read correct , ford nothing skinning existing mustang , minor suspension modifications pictures 've seen indicate n't good job new mustang , nothing cycle 20 year old car gee 1999 already \? yes , still fox program chasis , anything nt new car far mechanical 's unknown suspension likely changed , well drive drain printed , clear idea done , say modular v8 others current small block wait see also far styling goes seen good , return tradition c scoop sides roof line much like '65 '66 fastback know , i'm ford fan , must say , i'm looking forward next mustang faith fine product , desireable camaro know , 's mho differences days ford gm much quality , philosophy used quality philosophy gm barely catching , room improvement made time still come assembly line screwed paint stripes poor trunk door hood panel 's 75 year old plants latest gm products still come standard equipment \( tm \) like said , 're getting better making move right direction beat ford market camaro firebird , really words production vehicles limited end year , keeping selling prices msrp part since many twitching camaro fans would n't press ford hurry mustang since final wait could worth besides , bow tie fanatic gonna buy mustang anyway put much stock mag inside information , even ford rep quotes taurus pretty much surprise finally disclosed 's entirety inside information taurus v8 rear wheel drive one point would n't look simple mustang , folks may cheating 's lot potential ford n't released new car without 4 wheel 7 years mustang project least 4 , right \? 4 wheel could happen modular v8 's , interest cafe competition , n't rule , either ignorant many spy shots artist renderings , really knows 'll look like \? mach iii \? doubt highly next mustang ford 's highest profile car attracts way attention camaro firebird 's heritage embedded general public n't lie believe ford forfeit submit mustang success enough elicit defensive remarks heavy camaro fans know , intelligent , critical like , mustang bites , man ! already beginning predict mustang camaro comparable performers , usual predict differences subjective areas like looks feel , usual camaro still huge automobile mustang retain cab styling short , pony car camaro still reaches fighter pilot , mustang appeal driver camaro still sell muscle car set , mustang continue sell college muscle car set refined \( think camaro \) clear winner unless ford gets , romeo n't seriously believe designed mark viii , \? \) regards , brian bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu engineer , choose k department engineering mechanics ohio state university columbus , oh
bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu \( brian j queiser \) subject v4 v6 v8 v12 vx \? nntp posting host top magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 32 cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu \( oriolefan uiuc \) writes aas7 po cwru edu \( andrew spencer \) writes think technicaly known 180 degree vee configuration \( could wrong 've seen referred \) flat engine \? \? \? flat 180 deg v opposed usually , also equals boxer , however , think term traditionally reserved 8 's 12 's \( firing order matters \) talked r many months back ca n't remember consensus examples ferrari 's 512tr flat 12 boxer porsche 's 911 flat 6 subaru 's impreza flat 4 regards , brian bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu engineer , choose k department engineering mechanics ohio state university columbus , oh
bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu \( brian j queiser \) subject changing oil self keywords n nntp posting host top magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university 1993apr23 672 magnus acs ohio state edu distribution usa lines 29 sorlin magnus acs ohio state edu \( steven j orlin \) writes infante acpub duke edu \( andrew infante \) writes 're actually worried somebody stealing oil \? ahhh yes , andrew , meet , oil , draining leave stranded c'mon , think vandal 'll \? ! let guess , 're hudson ohio \? \? hey ! 's hudson crap \? actually , place car ever broken hudson laws \( driveway \) took change damn kids regards , brian bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu engineer , choose k department engineering mechanics ohio state university columbus , oh
arun g andrew cmu edu subject honda mailing list \? organization freshman , biology , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 6 nntp posting host andrew cmu edu reply 94539 hydra gatech edu excerpts netnews rec autos 24 apr 93 honda mailing list \? james b atkins prism ga honda mailing list , subscribe \? look magazine ads , may phone number call ask catalog list , etc
nynexst com \( \) subject looking tips driving cross country organization nynex science technology , inc x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 33 r goldstein \( world std com \) sez subject says , moving mass calif driving mostly interstate 80 advice folks done \? plan gas stops major city areas avoid 25 cent per gallon gas station 50 miles 're prepare car n't forget things like fuel air filters 're loading car , consider putting spare top stuff case flat x country trip , tire california desert took 20 minutes unload stuff get tire hatchback , cover stuff white help keep stuff car cool , well possibly avoiding theft mcdonalds good , clean bathrooms invest 30 cb magnetic roof antenna may help 're stranded , always ask people places stop food , etc many times police like hang 1st 10 miles enter new state , catch escaped previous state enter 55mph city zone hours hours rural interstate dave nynexst com 914 644 fax 914 644 juggle ! nynex science technology , 500 ave , white plains , ny
c spc edu subject weird problem gm 4 banger transmission organization spc community access system lines 34 i'm interesting problem girlfriend 's car delve innards , thought 'd check net wisdom subject \) 's 1985 buick \( know know \) 2 0l efi 4 banger auto miles drive tha car long enough get hot \( especially highways speeds \) transmission nasty habit getting stuck 3rd gear result , stop light motor stalls putting car park , waiting 30 60 seconds restarting sometimes allows transmission reset go back 1st otherwise , stalls put drive thoughts either 3rd gear band binding getting stuck gets hot \( likely \) perhaps lock converter properly \( seems likely \) least likely \( keeping fingers crossed \) critical vacuum hose broken cracked behaviour due lack somewhere \( used happen old valves \) background father owns service station worked 10 19 years age please feel free technical want \) 'd appreciate hearing tips suggestions offers free beer grin , chris
al qiclab scn rain com \( alan peterman \) subject auto air conditioning without freon article qiclab 1993apr24 distribution usa organization scn research qic laboratories tigard , oregon lines 21 article 1993apr22 convex com tobias convex com \( allen tobias \) writes better still , years ago demonstrated cold air system used air called rovax unit worked well , short coming seal technology today \? actually company , product stood rotary air conditioning used rotary compressor effectively air air heat , worked pretty well negatives mostly 5 10 less efficient using freon , noise problems high velocity pressure air , solved time company went bankrupt still legal entity florida , believe completely dead 's heck buy 's patents restart operation alan l peterman \( 503 \) 684 1984 hm work al qiclab scn rain com 's odd get older , days longer , years shorter !
cup hp com \( dan \) subject dirty diesels \? distribution na nntp posting host cup hp com organization hewlett packard x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 8 lines 31 nataraja rtsg mot com \( kumaravel natarajan \) put lot particulate matter heard something legislation discussed clean diesel emissions anything works install scrubbers diesels \? feasibility installing trucks cars \? would different catylitic converter \? 'd assume easier , since 're removing particulate matter instead converting gasses let 's hear people 's opinions technology applying diesels comply newer ca emissions laws involves three things know 1 compliant diesels turbocharged 2 use , cools air heated compression turbocharger \( 25 psi \) 3 injector pump senses pressurized air intake , limits full delivery fuel pressure low scrubbers , catalytic converters , etc , used path turbocharger exhaust outlet kept free interestingly , except low pressure fuel limitation , power output mileage enhanced measures one buy aftermarket turbos generate power , lots power , approved carb dan
jgoss gaia torolab ibm com \( jeff goss \) subject honda clutch chatter reply jimb hpindda cup hp com 's message fri , 23 apr 1993 23 08 56 gmt lines 39 organization ibm toronto lab article hpindda cup hp com jimb hpindda cup hp com \( james bruder \) writes jimb hpindda cup hp com \( james bruder \) date fri , 23 apr 1993 23 08 56 gmt organization hp information networks , cupertino , ca path eclipse ! yktnews watson ibm com ! newsgate watson ibm com ! news ans net ! howland reston ans net ! usc ! sdd hp com ! hpscit sc hp com ! ! ! hpindda ! jimb newsgroups rec autos references hpindda cup hp com lines 16 's nice know i'm alone comes clutch , etc problems late model hondas get supportive responses take local honda dealer maybe send regional rep southern calif input problem maybe group pressure honda owners placed honda find solution , retrofit clutch \? \? , maybe 'll sell blasted vehicle go back driving 10 year old pick \( fixed \) clutch problems caused look thought would trouble free solution ya sure put honda anything accord performed flawlessly areas 16 , 000 miles said something develop ! later folks alone old 83 accord \( hands \) much better engagement clutch even old 84 civic keep feels better aspect note cars 250 , 000 140 , 000 respectively 90 prelude blows away every respect except smooth clutch engagement course kawasaki best bunch need 2 wheels time prelude dud clutch day 1 , three years 67 , 000 better best luck feel free add collection jeff goss
jgoss gaia torolab ibm com \( jeff goss \) subject changing brake fluid necessary reply gmuvax gmu edu 's message 23 apr 93 16 31 29 0500 lines 15 organization ibm toronto lab article 1993apr23 gmuvax gmu edu gmuvax gmu edu writes hi 've seeing articles changing brake fluid wondering really necessary 86 toyota corolla , 94000 want stop seriously though , every 2 years done brake fluid water time , water becomes steam fluid gets hot , steam compresses 'll also better luck longevity master cylinder , calipers brake lines jeff goss
andrew cmu edu subject bmw question organization freshman , biology , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 7 nntp posting host po2 andrew cmu edu new benz c class cars come \? new nomenclature mb adopted apply c class cars also apply current class cars one know replace current 300 class since c class smaller line current 190 another question , bmw new body style current 7 series 5 series seem bit dated
eliot lanmola engr washington edu \( eliot \) subject horizontally opposed boxer engines \( v4 v6 v8 v12 vx \? organization skulls 'r us lines 42 nntp posting host lanmola engr washington edu article 1993apr24 magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu \( brian j queiser \) writes two crank configurations flat 4 common one probably crank similar i4 crank flat 4 engines i4 style cranks \? comparing two engines , i4 flat 4 first order shaking forces rocking moments i4 second order shaking force , flat 4 second order rocking moment significant thing flat 4 's second order moment easily balanced adding mass ends crank i4 , however , requires counter rotating shaft mass balance second order forces 99 99 sure subaru \( porsche \) use boxer configuration inline 4 crank analyzed compared would care evaluate case flat four \? think configuration perfectly balanced far primary , secondary forces couples concerned article front says bottom line biggest difference engines would probably intended use flat 4 easier fit low rear compartments \( mid rear mounting \) i4 mounted reduce hood length \( read cab forward \) , n't much fanfare differences , matter subaru ads say \( technology shared porsche indeed \) flat four also shorter inline 4 , even mounted take lots length placement easier 4 wheel drive think subaru 's ads hold water practice , flat noticeably smoother inline 4s completely buzz free , though may like peculiar note alfa shown , boxer four produce spine tingling scream likes recent hondas approach eliot
jgoss gaia torolab ibm com \( jeff goss \) subject manual shift bigots reply pebi aem umn edu 's message sat , 24 apr 1993 06 01 05 gmt lines 21 crh regent e technik tu muenchen de engr washington edu 1993apr21 1501 rtsg mot com 1993apr22 pony ingres com pebi zephyr aem umn edu organization ibm toronto lab article pebi zephyr aem umn edu pebi aem umn edu \( peter bidian \) writes another advantage manuals start car pushing shifting second gear n't work automatic peter record , read owner 's manual attempting push start manufacturers today recommend \( think catalytic converter primary reason gas goes may ignite converter gets operating range \) best reason manual \? like drive one find much easier develop lazy habits auto trans car remember , pay attention stupidity behind wheel still taken people morgue drunk driving problem n't revoke peoples license stupidity jeff goss
jgoss gaia torolab ibm com \( jeff goss \) subject v4 v6 v8 v12 vx \? reply bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu 's message sat , 24 apr 1993 15 06 53 gmt lines 25 1993apr24 150653 8115 magnus acs ohio state edu organization ibm toronto lab article 1993apr24 150653 8115 magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu \( brian j queiser \) writes flat 180 deg v opposed usually , also equals boxer , however , think term traditionally reserved 8 's 12 's \( firing order matters \) talked r many months back ca n't remember consensus examples ferrari 's 512tr flat 12 boxer porsche 's 911 flat 6 subaru 's impreza flat 4 regards , brian bmws boxer twin ! \( two \? \) around since 1923 think examples johnny come may wrong flames please jeff goss
eliot lanmola engr washington edu \( eliot \) subject v4 v6 v8 v12 vx \? organization skulls 'r us lines 13 nntp posting host lanmola engr washington edu article 1993apr24 150653 8115 magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu \( brian j queiser \) writes examples ferrari 's 512tr flat 12 boxer porsche 's 911 flat 6 subaru 's impreza flat 4 think got way round ferrari flat 12 180 degree v12 true boxer , subaru porsche true boxers n't know vw bug though , suspect also true boxer eliot
glouie oasys dt navy mil \( george louie \) subject pennsylvania insurance , limited tort option reply glouie oasys dt navy mil \( george louie \) distribution usa organization carderock division , nswc , bethesda , md lines 18 hey , i'm looking buying new car , i'm confused insurance coverage also applies existing car insurance policy anyone understand limited tort option means lower rates opt , expensive opt \? \( layman 's terms please \) \? good deal ignore \? i'm type sue anyone drop hat type report every little ding insurance company vandalism claim please help thanks advance george
newton convex com \( vicki newton \) subject seeking recommendations new car purchase nntp posting host concave convex com organization engineering , convex computer corp , richardson , tx , usa x disclaimer message written user convex computer corp opinions expressed user necessarily convex lines 18 folks , going purchasing new vehicle next months trying hold fall since heard better negotiating position purchase '93 right coming need something comfortably carry 2 adults , 2 kids car seats , 2 60 pound dogs probably afford something 16k range interested suv 's sure decent afford think ford explorer got good reviews consumer reports range isuzu probably price range think consumer reports gave big thumbs anyone offer suggestions \? hoping something little hip traditional wagon , look like fun \( lot camping \) veek
asbestos nwu edu \( michael atkinson \) subject sale evanston , il one car originator chaos merle acns nwu edu nntp posting host acns nwu edu organization chaos lines 13 sale 1981 oldsmobile omega four door gray , power windows , power steering , power brakes , remote trunk release starts reliably runs well , needs work 400 obo details , email \( 708 \) 864 michael atkinson try , dew asbestos nwu edu libertarian nra member
troy sequent com \( troy wecker \) subject questions insurance companies \( esp geico \) article sequent 1993apr21 distribution usa organization sequent computer systems inc lines 25 nntp posting host sequent com radar \( radio association defending rights \) says geico insurance buy 's radar police also actively states promote making radar detectors illegal think buying part misuse money radar detector part shows little know issue study aware ever concluded detectors negative impact safety users higher average speed incompetence geico \? think troy wecker troy sequent com sequent computer systems beaverton , article 1993apr21 julian uwo ca wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca \( wayne smith \) writes article 66758 mimsy umd edu davew cs umd edu \( david g wonnacott \) writes i'm considering switching geico insurance , heard assign specific agent policy claim worried might real pain make claim also heard try get rid accident 've read group geico funded purchasing radar guns police depts \( i'm sure \)
adn6285 ritvax isc rit edu subject mr2 noisy engine nntp posting host vaxa isc rit edu reply adn6285 ritvax isc rit edu organization rochester institute technology lines 31 article engr washington edu , eliot lanmola engr washington edu \( eliot \) writes article usenet pa dec com tomacj opco enet dec com \( thunderbirds go ! ! ! \) writes mr2 owners motor head gurus , know mr2 's engine sounds noisy \? mr2 's engine noisy best times , even nice nose 's one ugly noises assuming non turbo mr2 , characteristic large inline 4 n't balance shafts guess toyota n't care little details like brag mid engine configuration flashy styling , automatically cross car consideration \( recommendation \) inline 4 larger 2 liters balance shafts good rule thumb keep mind ever want halfway decent engine noise really bugs , nothing else except sell get v6 eliot eliot right 2 2 liter engine second \( last \) generation mr2 's original guy indicate year mr2 's first generation car \( like '85 \) , 1 6 liter engine \( perhaps engine , 's '87 '89 \) sound describes common older toyota engine ever heard n't know relevance observations oil changes , simply makes noise annoying , mind hear well engine right behind left ear \) mike
se houston geoquest slb com \( john schultz \) subject opinions 88 89 pontiac bonneville nntp posting host spock se houston geoquest slb com organization geoquest system , inc houston lines 21 article ds acsu buffalo edu v064mb9k ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( neil b gandler \) writes market buy used car particularly interested pontiac bonneville budget 7 8 thousand would able afford 88 89 engines available time know n't redesign 1992 model year reliability past models would appreciate advice information neil gandler word , yes 1989 prices \( avg retail \) sedan 4d le 7 , 125 sedan 4d se 8 , 125 sedan 4d sse 10 , 975
athena mit edu \( timothy j gardner \) subject 1994 mustang organization massachusetts institute technology lines 47 nntp posting host mit edu article 1993apr24 magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu \( brian j queiser \) writes subject upcoming new mustang put much stock mag inside information , even ford rep quotes taurus pretty much surprise finally disclosed 's entirety inside information taurus v8 rear wheel drive one point would n't look simple mustang , folks may cheating 's lot potential ford n't released new car without 4 wheel 7 years mustang project least 4 , right \? 4 wheel could happen modular v8 's , interest cafe competition , n't rule , either ignorant many spy shots artist renderings , really knows 'll look like \? mach iii \? doubt highly next mustang ford 's highest profile car attracts way attention camaro firebird 's heritage embedded general public n't lie believe ford forfeit car magazines printed lot information new mustang consensus believe car circle suspension pieces tuning almost identical current cobra , stiffer body structure improve behavior \( \) cost weight debacle , ford decided independent rear suspension rear wheel drive wo n't tried volume car current 4 9l v 8 soldier two years version 32 valve modular v 8 mark viii could offered ford spending big money 2 5l 3 5l v 6 engines power cars immediate future , therefore probably consider volume production 300 hp v 8 engines priority , car looks ok , nearly exciting new camaro firebird , imo suspect ford produce car higher quality gm achieve camaro firebird way gm loses money , temptation get door sake positive cash flow great demand really takes tim gardner
jp vllyoak resun com \( jeff perry \) subject 1994 mustang organization private site san marcos , california lines 26 jmh hopper virginia edu \( jeffrey hoffmeister \) writes article 1993apr22 192652 3032 virginia edu jmm4h virginia edu \( got remind ! yes , 's right , somtime fall , ford \( granddaddy cars \) introducing new , mega cool way fast accord drivers mustang 's supposed 100 streamlined , looking similar mach iii concept car ford came around january ca n't wait anyone hear anything recently \? everything 've read correct , ford nothing skinning existing mustang , minor suspension modifications pictures 've seen indicate n't good job new mustang , nothing cycle 20 year old car saw picture '94 mustang popular mechanics disappointment bombarded pictures mach iii jp
mizzou1 missouri edu \( jim \) subject michelin trx tires info needed nntp posting host mizzou1 missouri edu organization university missouri lines 14 hi , available set metric wheels \( came mustang bird \) wearing nearly bald michelin trx 220 tires place found tires tire rack mailorder place 121 pop cheaper source , another manufacturer size tire \? thanks info please e mail responses post summary interest jas jim mizzou1 missouri edu mizzou1 bitnet
steve wpd sgi com \( uncle connecticut \) subject car ! \? organization silicon graphics , inc mountain view , ca lines 17 ctron news ctron com smith ctron com \( lawrence c smith \) writes article 1993apr21 reed edu , rseymour reed edu \( robert seymour \) writes article 1993apr20 wam umd edu lerxst wam umd edu \( 's thing \) writes called bricklin manufactured 70s engines ford , n't bricklin six cylinder \? confusing delorean \? sure delorean v8 delorean used renault volvo v6 rear engine configuration bricklin use iron front engine rear drive configuration steve valin steve sgi com 've brain washed ca n't thing
keys starchild ncsl nist gov \( lawrence b keys \) subject questions insurance companies \( esp geico \) organization national institute standards technology distribution usa lines 59 article murdoch acc virginia edu jmh hopper virginia edu \( jeffrey hoffmeister \) writes article 1993apr21 julian uwo ca wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca \( wayne smith \) writes article 66758 mimsy umd edu davew cs umd edu \( david g wonnacott \) writes i'm considering switching geico insurance , heard assign specific agent policy claim worried might real pain make claim also heard try get rid accident 've read group geico funded purchasing radar guns police depts \( i'm sure \) geico purchased radar guns several states , know done ct also heard horror stories people insured geico years 1 accident immediately dropped 've dropped company become labled high risk , end 3 4 times insurance must vary state state , old company kemper wanted drop \( keeping wife \) premium 1 ticket 2 points 10 mph speed limit well called geico , insured wife less previously paying kemper generally hate whole insurance game realize necessary way person get around n't make sense one good thing geico everything handled phone suggestion , stay , shop around stay away geico ! jeff larry keys csmes ncsl nist gov oo 1990 2 0 16v fahrvergnugen forever ! fact need explain indicates probably would n't understand anyway !
amh2 ns1 cc lehigh edu \( alois himsl \) subject dumbest automotive concepts time organization lehigh university lines 15 article 1993apr15 jpl devvax jpl nasa gov , nancy hayduke \( nancy feagans \) writes ashtrays cigarette lighters option nancy j feagans \( 818 \) 306 jet propulsion lab nancy jpl devvax jpl nasa gov shred evidence exists favor idea life serious forget cigarette lighter plug essential plugging radar detectors lights ashtrays also essential great places keep change tokens al h
ssave ole cdac com \( devil reincarnate \) subject v4 v6 v8 v12 vx \? organization cdac , wa lines 16 curious knowing commericial cars today v engines v4 n't know v6 legend , mr3 \? mr6 \? v8 n't know v12 jaguar xjs please add list thanks , ssave ole cdac com
yfn ysu edu \( jerry sy \) subject ford shop manuals good \? organization st elizabeth hospital , youngstown , oh lines 14 reply yfn ysu edu \( jerry sy \) nntp posting host yfn ysu edu planning buying repair manual ford taurus \( 92 \) 53 ford shop manual comprehensive enough , covering repairs aspects car \? haynes manual \? please email replies possible thanks advance jerry
boyle cactus org \( craig boyle \) subject car saftey important \? organization capital area central texas unix society , austin , tx lines 33 article conradie 49 firga sun ac za conradie firga sun ac za \( gerrit conradie \) writes much discussion economics safety deleted safety important buying car wo n't buy small car like civic whatever great safety handling speed seems would dead small car large car accident simplistic view safety assuming collision \( less likely smaller car \) , important factor well car sacrifice save thousand pound f1 car hit wall 200 driver walks everybody dies suburban hits wall 35 \( recall last generation suburban hic numbers \) aside , point airbag \? seems seatbelts \( audi et al \) , good tight 5 point belt prevent every moving far enough hit airbag might saved glass \? airbag lowest common denominator safety device use head collision wearing seat belt \? craig gerrit
freenet carleton ca \( mike \) subject car ! \? organization national capital freenet , ottawa , canada lines 20 guys correct bricklin produced canada national museum science technology ottawa one , sometimes put display time , stays storage museum n't much room 's big deal car canadian 's anybody 's fan , also nice green '73 looks like came showroom mike ottawa , ontario , canada voice 613 823 paul \( formerly pt gvc com \) sven 's law 's exceptions every law \( except one \)
v064mb9k ubvmsd cc buffalo edu \( neil b gandler \) subject need info 88 89 bonneville organization university buffalo lines 10 news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host ubvmsd cc buffalo edu little confused models 88 89 heard le se sse could someone tell differences far features performance also curious know book value 89 model much less book value usually get words much demand time year heard mid spring early summer best time buy neil gandler
access digex com \( bill barry \) subject 2 eating clutch master cyls \? organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 36 nntp posting host access digex net summary repeated leaks \? keywords clutch master cyl problems '84 '86 camry , manual 5 speed transmissions '84 105 , 000 miles '86 83 , 000 miles year ago found master cylinder clutch '84 leaking fluid around piston seal , leading air system fluid back passenger compartment car pulled got rebuild kit \( new , seal , etc \) thought problem much surprise , problem developed several months later ! time looked carefully master cylinder make sure scratches , , obvious causes problem n't find ever since periodically feeding clutch additional fluid bleeding air system knew would selling car n't want go way solving problem add clutch original , 've adjust pedal allow maximum extension piston master cylinder order clutch hypothesis means fully depressing clutch pedal , angle piston rod \( attached pedal \) cylinder , thus piston seal perhaps think explanation \? suggest possible fix short replacing master cylinder getting new clutch put \? '86 problem , except diagnosis n't explain fluid leaked \( way master cylinder , passenger compartment \) vacation 10 days , clutch pedal depressed otherwise caused distort suggest \? many thanks let 's hope n't end going click clack bill barry access digex com
heiser acs2 bu edu \( bill heiser \) subject auto wax distribution usa organization boston university , boston , , usa lines 16 originator heiser acs2 bu edu recently purchased 93 probe clear coat paint , would like give good wax job best type wax use type finish \? paste liquid better \? would waxing hand , hand , guess using buff \( anything better would suggest \? \) 've heard comments things like turtle wax good , i'm wondering recommended quality finish thanks advance bill bill heiser heiser acs bu edu , heiser world std com boston university , boston
eliot stalfos engr washington edu \( eliot \) subject mr2 noisy engine organization clearer blir lines 26 nntp posting host 192 42 145 4 article 1993apr21 ultb isc rit edu adn6285 ritvax isc rit edu writes sound describes common older toyota engine ever heard n't know relevance observations oil changes , simply makes noise annoying , mind hear well engine right behind left ear \) think 1 6 mr2 's would describe engine sweet little loud , 2 2 mr2 's ca n't imagine unbiased person paying compliments sounded like ex 's rusty chevy 1 6 would want redline music , 2 2 would short shift would shut new camry 2 2 features balance shafts guess since mr2 getting axe , late anything mystery turbo mr2 2 liters engineers enough integrity prevent abuses also , europe mr2 non turbo also 2 liters usual , american market \( japanese must good \) gets dogs fair , also got turbo , europeans eliot
heiser acs2 bu edu \( bill heiser \) subject ford probe opinions \? \( centered around gt \) organization boston university , boston , , usa lines 152 article 1993apr20 5357 ncsu edu chuck eos ncsu edu \( chuck kesler \) writes jeremy g mereness zonker cmu edu says anyone offer opinions ford probe ala long run , repair records , reliability , mileage , etc \? owners ford probe world std com mailing list commented problem , n't seen happen 3 month old '93 probe gt think may something ford corrected since initial batch cars also , someone said ford issued service bulletin inform dealers correct problem , may able get dealer fix probe looked twice local dealer \( purchased car \) first time , made problem worse second time , advising service bulletin mentioned ford probe mailing list \( said n't know bulletin \) , adjusted window made much better however makes noise rough roads , still open close window wet weather \( anyone elses 's \? \) ford gives 1 key car c'mon ford , spend extra pennies ! got two keys car , one remote entry push button ! , bought 93 2500 miles , think may i'm surprised something missing \( horn buttons behind air bag spokes center \( personal preference \) seriously considering following advice owners manual describes procedure follow discover something ford could cause serious injury threaten lives etc \) something notifying national traffic safety group well ford little 've got position fingers perfectly make beep buttons terrible latter probably air bag 's pretty much takes space 'd expect find horn speaking horn , surprised find probe comes one nice sounding horns instead japanese sounding kind previous probes japanese horns well , guess 's good way , way 's bad someone hears kind horn , expect see big american car may associate sound small jap car style car \( like probe \) tires fling dirt mud onto side car yeah , badly , enough annoying sometimes help lot transmission \( 5 speed must \) always 5 speed guy almost every car 've ever owned 5 speed got good deal car 2500 miles , \( knowingly \) overlooked fact automatic pretty high tech automatic fully controlled 4 speed torque converter lockup even automatic , i'm getting 35 mpg highway , driving 65 70 ! \( course driving 65 illegal , probably made sentence \) \) around town mileage around 25 27 , bad automatic course n't control 5 speed , since lot city driving , turns convenient 's nice able drink cup coffee drive time \( although , , illegal like control life massachusetts \) shake rattle noises going bumps potholes \( still ! \) shakes rattles main gripe 've gotten fix worst , fear rather harsh ride , car virtual rattles gets older tires 225 goodyear eagles \( 70 left hoping 30k \) 89 probe gl , got 40k original , driven replacement tires \( \) 50k miles car 195 65 \( 60 \? \) 93 probe look like 're designed performance \( ie rather wide , shallow tread , etc \) , probably wo n't last long car handles well sticks road like glue , even rough surface interior , nice pleasing eye , ergonomically sound definitely ford mazda nice job one car much expensive actually look feel yes , car 's stiff suspension n't everyone personally like , find little harsh otherwise like car , 'd strongly suggest looking mx 6 driven 89 probe 4 years , find 93 suspension interesting car actually drives much better 89 firm ride , definitely know every bump road yet car remains civilized even roads hear feel bumps , yet car posture well 3 passengers , means bring along 'll find room back 'll find car rides differently \( 's better \) well would n't encourage passenger carrying probe unless person front seat likes sit knees dash mentioned consumer reports write ups , consider back seat parcel shelf though \( , 'd bought car ! \( 's definitely family car \) \) also , 's lot glass around n't expecting temperature inside car gets pretty hot summer c must probe 89 93 93 particular sends real blast cool air ac max lots glass mentioned gives car good visibility reports see write ups sports sporty cars n't good visibility 've heard exhaust system trouble , mine works fine n't heard one know early probes \( '89 maybe '90 \) problems prematurely mufflers \( complaints 've heard exhaust system \( 93 's \) gt course different engine , exhaust system one 89 qualified free replacement since already replaced muffler received notice , due refund ford applied february still waiting \( gave free rental car day half without car quite happy way handled especially considering expecting worst ! yes pretty amazed car touch adjustments past week , keep overnight \( busy get \) offered pay rental \) make pay taxes insurance though \( 've heard , sounds like ford mazda qc problems probe \( probably mx 6 \) first went production , think problems mostly corrected point 's almost always expected completely new car like , though agree seem qc seriously feel car design sound , expect well bill heiser heiser acs bu edu , heiser world std com boston university , boston
heiser acs2 bu edu \( bill heiser \) subject water trunk 89 probe \? \? organization boston university , boston , , usa lines 25 article 1993apr22 news arc nasa gov chung pioneer arc nasa gov \( po sum chung \) writes \( tommy szeto \) writes water gradually builds trunk friend 's 89 ford probe every would remove spare scoop water plywood carpet cover trunk would guess usually noticed '89 probe also , recently cleaning back think water coming rubber stoppered holes beneath spare mine looked slightly worn , water water damage problem '90 probe water definitely comming rubber stoppered hole beneath spare remove rubber stopper drain water seems like common problem probe known problem seals taillights 93 probes complain loudly dealer get install new seals known problem , present \( \) pre 93 probes , n't pay fix case , fixed extended warranty \( pay 50 deductable \) \( work valued something like 185 labor parts \) removed tail lamps occasions , think estimate fair bill heiser heiser acs bu edu , heiser world std com boston university , boston
stdvax \( dirk \) subject 's rush \( fast \) news software vax vms vnews 1 4 b1 organization goddard space flight center robotics lab distribution usa lines 33 article 1993apr19 cactus org , boyle cactus org \( craig boyle \) writes article mentor cc purdue edu marshatt feserve cc purdue edu \( zauberer \) writes article unisql uucp wrat unisql uucp \( wharfie \) writes remember roads america designed speeds 80 meaning would safe 55 65 roads like autobahn smoother , , wider slightly banked well , 's news 1975 speed limit texas highways 75 speed limit new jersey turnpike \( 95 \) 70 speed limits nevada montana guess n't clear enough said roads designed speeds 80 still safe current 55 65 add saftey margin actually , roads designated safe 80 built 1950 's taking account kinds cars available number would much higher today cars , tires everything else lot believe interstates funded part national defense plan etc requirements move heavy army trucks 70mph still amazing germany cars traveling 155 mph 65 mph 3 4 lane road around washington dc ca n't keep traffic flowing 55 dirk
stdvax \( dirk \) subject old corvettes low insurance \? corvette prices news software vax vms vnews 1 4 b1 organization goddard space flight center robotics lab lines 85 article netcom com , rjn netcom com \( richard newton ii \) writes article 1993apr15 ns1 cc lehigh edu ns1 cc lehigh edu \( scott warren \) writes article news cso uiuc edu , uxa cso uiuc edu \( george nz \) writes many years school i'm finally graduating getting real job course trying make plans spend extra money right 89 accord , good car , real sporty thinking selling two years dropping around 20k sports car kind thinking , may better idea 'll keep accord drops buy car 've always wanted corvette reasoning 8000 \( accord \) 8000 \( corvette \) less would spend anyway basically , i'm thinking late 70 's , early 80 's around 7 10k question , good years consider \( reliability , looks , horsepower order , believe , horsepower main concern , want go fast , get motorcycle \) good prices \? '82 vettes basic chassis 1980 add aluminum \( weaker \) rear housing years used brakes , similar springs etc late 70 's bad year gm reliability catastrophic converter added 1975 cheapest corvette '78 '79 low end 4k tops 12k except think '78 25th vette special guys known ask 25k n't think get best buy 69 74 got 69 5k needs body work i'm willing parts readily avail swap meets mail order etc v 8 reliability looks independant suspension 4 wheel disk 10k thought miata good deal also , would insurance look like \? i'm male , single , 23 \( might wait i'm 25 get car lower insurance \) would fact mainly drive car lower \? type classic car rarely driven insurance class driving 10k miles per year \? dad 66 vette say basically means restricted amount driving time , basically means cant used every day car would probably suit needs limited mileage origional insurance agent drive '69 3000 miles less per year , must keep locked garage cost 2 stated value per year \( sound right \? \) 've also looking vettes recently , found '67 convertible like dealer currently '88 ford escort gt , insured state farm called em , asked rates sell escort , vette insurance 401 16 per 6 months keep escort , vette insurance 308 82 per 6 months escort 's insurance goes 10 , approx 320 per 6 months i'm 28 , male , good driver discount another variable would live best bet call insurance brokers , get quote state farm says base price fair market value car , determined outside look newspaper , call dealers find going rate , adjust condition car get values , went selling price car dealer 's asking price 21 , 900 need research find reasonable case , told state farm value 20k get look car check serial numbers look origional depending mods done car could worth 10k problems like wrong engine trans wrong paint type \( used \) modification would reduce value looking car drive right \? sounds like ball park price small block \( 327 cu \) manual air car 427 would put closer 30k get ! ! ! insurance purposes also
oprsfnx gsusgi2 gsu edu \( stephen f nicholas \) subject geico organization georgia state university distribution usa lines 9 i'm glad forum came 've pricing insurance lately considered geico ! ! company practices like e ! ! 'll stay liberty mutual steve nicholas wells computer center georgia state university oprsfnx gsusgi1 gsu edu risk risk taken
dewey nmsu edu \( \) subject v 16 organization new mexico state university lines 16 nntp posting host huey nmsu edu probably famous v16 one cadillac made 1925 1935 scale great depression really put crimp luxury cars 452 cubic inches two hundred horse power n't make like used others though packard one 1930 sized legendary twin six , next twenty years lincoln pierce arrow might also one two sure luxury semi luxury cars era least experimented v16 actually produce actually cylinder war among big three see could produce biggest engine big standard disclaimer applies , ca n't think anything
mentor cc purdue edu \( gene kim \) subject review 1989 ford taurus sho organization purdue university lines 330 review 1989 ford taurus sho gene kim background last week , bought 1989 ford taurus sho , moving driving 1987 toyota celica st 1975 oldsmobile interested buying sho five months combing classifieds denver chicago every week bought remarkably clean red sho miles 6800 far tell , 2000 blue book still another 8000 miles extended service plan runs one pre 1991 shos , made sure car already refit upgraded clutch pressure plate , well recalled upgraded rotors seatbelt attachments however , sho newer rod shifter understand get 230 ford service center addition , car received full tune 60k miles , receiving new platinum plugs valve adjustment car miles , car virtually immaculate paint job devoid large chips dents , although front air dam covered lots small scratches surprising since miles spent highway driven smaller two door coupe long , bit concerned whether could get used driving larger car surprise , size car n't bother seems nimble celica ! \( comparisons oldsmobile \) visibility driver 's seat excellent , helped mostly small quarter windows , aft back seat door windows front c pillar rear window parallel parking bit difficult , , love size fact , i'm starting appreciate large trunk pack 14 hour drive washington , dc summer ride later review engine anyone even slightly interested shos , interested 24 valve 3 0l yamaha engine disappointed base performance engine 4000 rpms good even reasonable launches second gear , although n't make practice engine revs smoothly eagerly around town require many shifts good since shifter definitely one weakest points car \( later \) performance engine 4000 rpms may , undergoes transformation hit higher revs 4500 rpms , valve opens literally hear feel geometry engine changing twelve valves open engine 7000 rpm redline , treated , opinion , sounding v6 around engine sounds 6500 rpm ! 've noticed drive around town , constantly watch tach see far 4000 rpm go 2000 rpm 4000 , may punch accelerator torque adequate , n't come fully online 12 valves used transmission car driver first reviewed car 1988 , ford put wimpy clutch shifter car remember driving friend 's parent 's sho 1990 , remember thinking whether leg strength drive car traffic clutch stiff back entire clutch assembly sho replaced ford recall 1991 clutch sho feels stiffer one toyota celica fact , friction point seems bit larger forgiving playing shifter car parked , shifter felt reasonable 1 2 3 4 gates 'd expect , shifting action smooth road , 's much shift slowly ! make mistake , 's clumsy shifter hurrying shifts , like initially trying impress friends , consistently miss 1 2 shift , often 2 3 shift , sometimes even 3 4 shift find pretty amazing car like also took several days realize get shifts take time seems obvious , compared toyota friend 's honda , seems atrocious clumsy someone rec autos noted blow shos line incredibly clumsy shifter shift much , shifter seems reasonable play within bounds , shifter works smoothly surprises n't know whether rod shifter upgrade would help along lines , initially trouble shifting gears smoothly , slowing shifts taking care match revs letting clutch helped immensely took several days get hang \( think problems 've never car enough power balk bad shifts higher gears \) occasionally , trouble shifting reverse shifter refuses enter gate , often grind synchros trying get gear 'll watching carefully next couple months quirk engine drops back 1000 2500 rpm , hear grinding noise coming engine compartment terribly loud , passenger definitely hear asked looking car , passengers apparently , definitely sho sound gearbox apparently called gear rollover replies queries rec autos end review exterior mentioned , astounded well body sho stood paint front bumper grille virtually non existent looking older sometimes n't age gracefully , wonder guys ford differently sho bodies body , opinion , extremely attractive matching color body stock odd reason , sho seems different enough vanilla get course , could imagination \) shos get fog lights , open grille , completely exterior , deeper ground back sho relief 've seen couple shos whose owners colored colors black yuck n't think car flashy like way feel almost anonymous , different distinctive enough us care \) interior interior really makes feel like n't deserve car seats grey leather , steering wheel shifter covered black leather , entire instrument panel done black grey metallic scheme instrumentation stock taurus , except 140 mph speedo 8000 rpm tach get center console two , large compartment radio \( great cd player \) , contains yet another compartment , three appropriately sized coin holders \( think \) , compartment holding cassette tapes 's map holders doors , oddly small glove compartment spilled whole coke delighted find entire rubber holder removed washed sink hey , i'm really impressed ergonomics went design 's 1989 , interior upgraded ! bigger car 've need much space \? \) \( smart ass comments , please \) driver passenger seat lumbar side bolsters hear , 's uncommon side bolsters show wear mine exception left side driver 's cracked i'm convinced right way big surprise forgot shos n't normal hand parking brake instead , regular parking brake press left foot bad , i'm getting used , seems bit anachronistic ride suspension nice stiff stiff \? 's stiffer car 've friend 's new 1993 toyota celica st seems still able soak bumps better sho seems stiffer less ability soak bumps driving railroad tracks noisy jarring affair hand , taking turns feels wonderful body rigid n't flex listened bought car highway , ride great drove car chicago back purdue , trouble keeping 85 mph , let alone trying see 100 mph really feels like 's relatively quiet ride , sunroof rattles 've tried find exactly makes noise , seems window rests rails easy way get rid , think past three days , 've thinking suspension wonderful perfect thinking ride way rough \( , mind wonder whether would advise dad buy one \) , 've discovered , shifter , take time shifts , 'll reason complain let explain ride worst turning applying lots power wheels feel wheels traction torque steer making car left right understood , avoid limits traction i'm happy 's body rigidity , car matching suspension , steering feel quite heavy first impression driving sho hard turn wheel highway speeds tracks straight arrow , driving around parking lot , high effort steering n't seem useful however , 's reasonable , n't communicate road driver well 1993 ford probe gt imho , 's much better steering celica st wonder bad car winter \? miscellaneous notes gripes rattles sunroof intermittent days rattles loudly , days look wondering noise went activating sunroof sometimes noisy loud rails wonder quick fix , days completely disappears \( function humidity \? \) made connection sometimes awful feeling suspension torque steer , 've never complained ride wish seats support thighs also , wish side bolsters would close tightly hear tires car get really expensive currently goodyear gt 4s cost previous owner 500 four used hate ford stereo systems whose idea use volume paddle \? , amazement , n't really mind sometimes think 's okay idea ! ! ! pretty ridiculous , though getting 4000 rpm sometimes seems , big deal enough torque low often shifting driving friends took couple days could really shift smoothly 2nd 3rd gear \( hard believe , n't \? \) car almost 93 , 000 miles parents noted almost impossible find low mileage sho observation , imho wonder long make sho last bought book titled drive forever tips department \) goofy parking brake pedal still throws loop parked car gear , accidentally let clutch started car forward , bounced car front paint damage , starting car whole new ritual pedal ! also , began wonder strong brake really \( today , backed parking spot today started drive away noticed glowing brake light oops \) driver 's power window closed way thing happens parents 1989 mercury sable oddly , windows work smoothly likes i'm liking interior amenities day great n't expect use keyless entry buttons much , really handy lock doors pressing 7 8 9 10 buttons together ! neat ! never lock car really feel like n't deserve car really ca n't believe could afford got car ten years ahead schedule \) love car much 've telling parents look buying one love car much wrote 13k file meant write couple lines ended j powers survey used car owners , would opportunity express incredible satisfaction owning car n't like thinking getting another car , point time , i'm sure 'd buy another sho 7000 , ca n't beat \( next time airbag abs , though \) insurance wise , car also big win pay premiums 1987 toyota celica despite nearly twice horsepower odds ends much amazement , sho mailing list anywhere maybe sho registry publication filled void n't joined yet , 've noticed queries shos still appear rec autos month owners shos always quick respond , vocal fans cars \( maybe vocal rec autos \) 've put together responses questions cars , well posts useful information cars 'll posting form faq soon anyone interested starting mailing list , please speak ! n't know resources purdue start one , maybe someone gene kim \( mentor cc purdue edu \)
tedebear leland stanford edu \( theodore chen \) subject v4 v6 v8 v12 vx \? organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa lines 27 article 1993apr22 telxon mis telxon com joes telxon mis telxon com \( joe staudt \) writes v6 legend , mr3 \? mr6 \? honda prelude \( \? \) nope 4 cylinder v8 n't know n't try hard lexus , several n't aware another infiniti v 8 besides q45 bmw one model \( 5 series \? \) several , , , \( 4 0 liter 3 0 liter v 8 \) mercedes one two models one two \? 's least one v 8 every platform except compact \( \) class \( , \) , \( , \) , \( \) acura one model \( ca n't remember name right \) acura n't v 8 cars moment v12 jaguar xjs bmw , 850 mercedes sls \( 500 sl \) v 8 inline six
hp com \( tony \) subject last v 8 interceptors organization hp mtn view resp lines 9 anyone know kind car mad max used road warrior \? called last v 8 interceptors couldnt tell , chopped thanks
chung pioneer arc nasa gov \( po sum chung \) subject water trunk 89 probe \? \? organization nasa ames res ctr mtn vw ca 94035 lines 25 article tamsun tamu edu jlong tamu edu \( james long \) writes article transfer stratus com tszeto sneezy ts stratus com \( tommy szeto \) writes water gradually builds trunk friend 's 89 ford probe every would remove spare scoop water plywood carpet cover trunk would guess usually happens good thunder storm qs 1 \) common problem \? 2 \) drain holes located hatch \? noticed '89 probe also , recently cleaning back think water coming rubber stoppered holes beneath spare mine looked slightly worn , water water damage level spare area problem '90 probe water definitely comming rubber stoppered hole beneath spare remove rubber stopper drain water seems like common problem probe po sum chung email chung ames arc nasa gov
rs6000 cmp ilstu edu \( charlie preston \) subject car saftey important \? organization illinois state university lines 25 article 1993apr20 bnr ca tcorkum bnr ca \( trevor corkum \) writes recently thumbing 1993 lemon aid new car guide found car would given picture sentences later noting driver passenger virtually guaranteed killed front end collision highly recommended small car \( civic \) worst crash rating small cars listed many cases 'great' vehicles would n't survive accident , safety one important factors buying car \? imho best way reduce risk operating vehicle able avoid hazards , reason preferred vehicle motorcycle use four wheeler primary reasons keep dry , keep warm , carry cargo four wheeler much collision protection average motorcycle , enough form define safe \? one definition safe without risk dod oh , two places 're anywhere \? theatre
george howell goucher wb3ffv ampr org \( george howell \) subject 1994 mustang distribution world organization goucher college , towson , md reply george howell goucher wb3ffv ampr org \( george howell \) lines 19 current 4 9l v 8 soldier two years version 32 valve modular v 8 mark viii could offered unfortunate anyone loves simplicity 302 351 fords 305 350 built still , provide needed punch ford stay new firebird camaros would n't surprise ford called engine 5 0 litre mustang \( know current 5 0 really 4 9 litres anyway \) , car looks ok , nearly exciting new camaro firebird , imo must agree n't think 've seen anything impressive looking new firebird since friend back home sold 1970 formula 400 firebird \( paltry 2000 , without even telling bastard \) george howell george howell goucher wb3ffv ampr org
george howell goucher wb3ffv ampr org \( george howell \) subject broncos distribution world organization goucher college , towson , md reply george howell goucher wb3ffv ampr org \( george howell \) lines 18 anybody information second generation broncos \? \( i'm talking bronco ii 's , i'm referring broncos began production 1978 based f 150 chassis believe \) need know look , tops removed models , easily done also , kind price range looking \? \( e blue book \) i'm college right , would like jeep unfortunately , 've got bit ride school , need carry lot junk dormitory spring fall think bronco \( removable fiberglass \) would better \( read bigger \) choice cj 5 cj 7 even better anybody maryland virginia area interested selling one \? george howell george howell goucher wb3ffv ampr org
eng umd edu \( christopher \) subject mr2 noisy engine organization project glue , university maryland , college park lines 11 nntp posting host multiplexer eng umd edu yeah , seems toyota always problem 2 2 's sound know em pretty , exception , large displacement 4s bad noise 90 grand h quad 4 , sounds really good , almost like larger 6 , toyota coming new celica next year mr2 well knows later chris
mcl ucsb edu \( andrew \) subject impala ss going production ! distribution na lines 40 1993apr19 ucsu colorado edu dunnjj ucsu colorado edu \( dunn jonathan james \) writes mcl ucsb edu \( andrew \) writes personally like looks impala ss caprice definately weird looking year made rear wheel look like normal car , impala gm ca n't exactly shove lt1 everything make , know , bigger stuff 'd like see next 1500 series pickup would hot setup full size blazer well \? would engine torque necessary \? , would even better syclone well , lt1 blazer would n't come close gmc typhoon speed , think heavy right , normal 5 7 engine plenty power full size blazer course , i'm saying gm n't put lt1 \) seems like real winner engine spend much money getting 32 valve dohc v8 take lt1 \? even seems get pretty good gas mpg \( 5 7 , \) talking impala ss 4 door caprice body \? i'm curious chevy trying 2 door muscle cars , compete european super sedans yeah , 's flat black , lowered 4 door caprice riding 17 aluminum rims eagle gs c tires rest car basically caprice \( read police package \) 300 horsepower heard chevy monte carlo 's going get 3 4 dohc v6 lt1 jon dunn andrew mcl ucsb edu ucsb edu
bari eng sun com \( brian gordon \) subject legal car buying problems organization sunsoft , sun microsystems company lines 22 distribution ca nntp posting host bari article megatest com jao megatest com \( john \) writes however , agree terms , , sign , dealer slips contract different terms , leads believe terms verbally agreed , fraud 3 day limit restitution fraud may sue \( win \) get almost certainly threaten sue hand , remember old verbal agreement n't worth paper 's printed sign , going one hell time proving fraud based comparison thought going sign right one thing , proving another brian g gordon sun com netcom com b genie , compuserve aol
pv9955 albnyvms bitnet subject vw jetta gli help reply pv9955 albnyvms bitnet organization university albany , suny lines 17 considering 1987 vw jetta gli miles recently found two versions gli 8v 16v know three differences two cars carry name 16v version 20 horsepower , 4 wheel discs , standard sunroof oops , 's difference gli 16v regular gl ! ! addition engine , differences exist two models jetta gli \? importantly , tell version one \? badges said 16v inclined think 8v version assuming one \( one looked \) 8v version , valid reason buy instead equipped gl would cost less \? \( course would love get 16v version , money talks \) please email responses thank peter pv9955 albnyvms bitnet
cleveland freenet edu \( derek j \) subject question nissan 300zx owners gurus \( esp 87 89 models \) organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 19 nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu purchased used 1988 nissan 300zx \( non turbo \) last year question gear rpm ratios right 5th i'm 2600 2700 rpms 70mph i'm norm \? i'm auto i'm wondering proper ranges \? somehow rpm figures seem high friend mine told hit 60mph 3rd 88 chevy beretta \( 2 8l v6 \) also , anyone know top speed \( redline \? \? \? \) model z \? \( would try would interesting factoid \) thanx ! derek love , two extremes nrl navy mil live , fire ' love , 's life surfing eye see ' guardian wave
tquinn heartland bradley edu \( terry quinn \) subject 1994 mustang organization utexas mail news gateway lines 32 reply tquinn heartland bradley edu nntp posting host cs utexas edu beat ford market camaro firebird , really words production vehicles limited end year , keeping selling prices msrp part since many twitching camaro fans drivel received delivery '93 trans 7 weeks ordered \( promised 6 8 weeks \) , paid 400 dealer invoice , discount msrp 370 miles , far problems , seems well put together way , first year production 60 , 000 cars dealers would like think shortage , considering sold 90 , 000 f bodies last year new model introduced mid year , going create shortage gm planning 160 , 000 f bodies next year \( according wsj article \) several people mentioned seeing photo '94 mustang popular mechanics saw photo motor trend january 1993 issue \( \) direct side view although described seriously handsome car broad shoulders , thought looked pretty boring view reminded toyota celica \( ! \) description mechanicals reported pm article terry quinn hills , il tquinn heartland bradley edu compuserve internet tquinn heartland bradley edu
freenet carleton ca \( mike \) subject car ! \? organization national capital freenet , ottawa , canada lines 17 guys correct bricklin produced canada national museum science technology ottawa one , sometimes put display time , stays storage museum n't much room 's big deal car canadian 's anybody 's fan , also nice green '73 looks like came showroom mike ottawa , ontario , canada voice 613 823
cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu \( oriolefan uiuc \) subject questions insurance companies \( esp geico \) distribution usa organization university illinois urbana lines 22 wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca \( wayne smith \) writes article 66758 mimsy umd edu davew cs umd edu \( david g wonnacott \) writes i'm considering switching geico insurance , heard assign specific agent policy claim worried might real pain make claim also heard try get rid accident 've read group geico funded purchasing radar guns police depts \( i'm sure \) maryland states original poster read last 3 4 issues car driver 's interesting illegal chintan amin university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig construction hard hat area
cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu \( oriolefan uiuc \) subject geico distribution usa organization university illinois urbana lines 50 goldberg oasys dt navy mil \( mark goldberg \) writes rec autos , jmh hopper virginia edu \( jeffrey hoffmeister \) writes suggestion , stay , shop around stay away geico ! strongly agree jeff 's horror story many years back , switched geico state farm save relatively new sports car , covered liability , collision , comprehensive make car , new models came january , september like makes car purchased august year also much older wanted liability low behold , vandal slashed roof sports car put claim october still current model year car new top , installation 135 50 deductible gotten 85 go geico 's local office see car , unlike state farm sent adjusters shop place said , since car one year old , 'll top 50 , 'll get 35 claim also count accident , rate may increase hassle continued got letter geico , saying claim denied policy car n't cover learned records full coverage \( collision , etc \) old , liability new car ! ! ! ! mixed cars records fixed top carpet thread dropped claim still charged accident ! cancelled policy switched another company coup de came sent bill additional balance due difference collision comprehensive cost sports car ! ! ! returned bill unpaid , plus explicity directions perform cranial insertion ! ! ! ! n't heard since \) \) \) everyone 's entitled opinion \) goldberg oasys dt navy mil imagination important knowledge albert einstein good convinced someone start boycott geico takers \? chintan amin university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig construction hard hat area
westes netcom com \( estes \) subject looking low lease rate toyota previa organization mail group x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 7 's best lease quote anyone seen toyota previa dx dx trac two year lease \? know get better rate 330 month , please contact name phone dealership estes internet westes netcom com
butt stanford edu \( butt \) subject toyota 1988 fx organization stanford university school medicine lines 13 distribution ba nntp posting host stanford edu summary low keywords toyota corolla 88 originator butt stanford edu sale , 1988 toyota corolla fx , fm radio , nothing else low mileage 28 , 000 \( ride bike work \) dark blue good condition leaving country year must sell great city car call renee \( 408 \) 924 leave message email account
adn6285 ritvax isc rit edu subject bmw 528i nntp posting host vaxa isc rit edu reply adn6285 ritvax isc rit edu organization rochester institute technology looked bimmer yesterday 's '81 , , according owner \( odometer stopped working \) well , sounds good , body ok , wants 3000 liked car , despite 's auto tranny , wife primary driver one , wants auto radio work untill car warms honk horn \( ! \) c seems leak sunroof sticky , operational odometer work , mentioned idle bit , going wipers slow 's teh gripes owner says changed radiator , alternator , rotors calipers , exhaust biggest problem , owner sob , telling strange stories hate would never buy like , except , often see descent 528i amount money also said , although could bring , would n't let check car taking garage suspicious knows milage , let know check , given 's practically rust know article 528i r years back , anybody remembers issue \? mike
ssc sas upenn edu \( andrew white \) subject compilation problems 1985 chevy caprice distribution na organization social science computing , univ penn lines 51 nntp posting host ssc sas upenn edu 85 caprice classic 120k miles finally reached threshold total number mechanical problems forced post \) anyone might able give pointers one , please e mail post ! 1 making turns , especially accelerating , usually loud thunk rear car sounds like could differential could cause \? differential going bad \? recently differential fluid changed , tiny metal bits \( , sound something rolling around trunk ! \) 2 starting car , get blue \( oil \) smoke exhaust 5 10 seconds exhaust valves going bad \? worn rings \? anyone know whether valves 4 3 engine \? 3 brakes pedal travel feel comfortable , master cylinder full fluid relatively clear pedal slowly sink floor held pedal feel , suppose bleeding brakes might help could anything else cause \? 4 tranny tranny problems seem slowly getting worse takes almost 2 seconds downshift 3rd 2nd heavy throttle application , recently , reluctant shift 2nd 3rd fluid \( checked car running tranny put gears back park , per haynes manual \) red clear , full mark 5 springs around shot 4 new shocks , car still skips bumps turns moderate high speed hard change \? reconditioned \? 'd interested hearing gm full size owners stories tell advice philly , cars apparently stolen \( ! \) quite often converted taxis apparently cab conversion shops get junk title car switch car 60 philly caprice 's , rest crown vic 's old new \( \) andrew white sas upenn edu
underdog leland stanford edu \( dwight joe \) subject market access organization miners heart gold distribution na lines 31 article 1993apr22 eecs nwu edu andrew eecs nwu edu \( andrew sung kim \) writes rice import issue \? course , closed like shell , open compared us \? japan much open korea yes pontiac grand suffers factor 2 increase price exported japan however , dodge vehicle \( one congressman mentioned \) suffers factor 4 increase price exported korea ford taurus suffers problem honda accord costs making 48 , 000 korea many people would want buy honda accord 48 , 000 \? solution ships carrying korean made vehicles returned seoul pronto time korea decides wants abide rules free fair trade usa japan , , , ooo u ooo imi wa nan ka ` imi ga nai yo made mo , ima ka
cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu \( oriolefan uiuc \) subject v4 v6 v8 v12 vx \? organization university illinois urbana lines 27 ssave ole cdac com \( devil reincarnate \) writes curious knowing commericial cars today v engines v4 n't know v6 legend , mr3 \? mr6 \? v8 n't know v12 jaguar xjs please add list thanks , ssave ole cdac com viper n't inline 10 flat 10 , \? i'm pretty sure v 10 also , cizeta \? \? \? v 16 , may yet dream chintan amin university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig construction hard hat area
cbnewsg cb att com \( bentz e \) subject sport utility vehical comparisons \? opinions \? organization lines 51 article cronkite cisco com , kmac cisco com \( karl elvis macrae \) read road track car driver \( one mag two \? b \) , wondering people opinions differed mags say i'm looking following three suv 's anyone 's driven three strong opinions \? ford explorer toyota 4runner nissan pathfinder currently i'm leaning toward toyota , 'cause 've big success toyota trucks past , 'cause think 's best looking three thought 'd see anyone strong opinions thanks ! karl agree toyota best looking n't fit plus highest cost ones mentioned good friends three trucks talked , ones kids went ford room required carry couple kids junk need single ones went toyota nissan every one happy bought although one serious four wheel road driving karl elvis macrae software release support cisco systems kmac cisco com batman cisco com 415 688 dod 1999 fj1200 shovels rakes implements destruction arlo guthrie bentz \( 303 \) 488 \( ! \) e ave englewood , colorado powder skiing path salvation
robohen ocf berkeley edu \( henry robertson \) subject market access organization u c berkeley open computing facility lines 48 distribution na nntp posting host lightning berkeley edu article 1993apr22 leland stanford edu underdog leland stanford edu \( dwight joe \) writes article 1993apr22 eecs nwu edu andrew eecs nwu edu \( andrew sung kim \) writes rice import issue \? course , closed like shell , open compared us \? japan much open korea yes pontiac grand suffers factor 2 increase price exported japan however , dodge vehicle \( one congressman mentioned \) suffers factor 4 increase price exported korea ford taurus suffers problem honda accord costs making 48 , 000 korea many people would want buy honda accord 48 , 000 \? solution ships carrying korean made vehicles returned seoul pronto time korea decides wants abide rules free fair trade usa japan , , get carried away keep mind owning car korea luxury ruling class afford every government agency worth salt finds reason levy tax car ownership last heard , seven different fees pay car believe sort petty bureaucratic new president kim young sam wants eradicate basically , think rules came place bureaucrats backgrounds wanted revenge ruling class exchange , 's like hyundai screwed smaller companies , perpetuating vicious cycle faith korean people potentially build cars well anyone else , hyundai cars seem reflect tensions within society , screwy components wo n't work together stubborn like mule , car either wo n't go forward wo n't stop
uhura cc rochester edu \( outatime \) subject emergency brake '86 nissan maxima keywords nissan nntp posting host uhura cc rochester edu organization university rochester rochester , new york lines 12 quick , simple question really many wheels affected emergency brake '86 nissan maxima 've heard four affected , would seem unusual thought emergency brake cars affected rear wheels also , powerful emergency brake usually \? enough lock wheels 30mph \? hmmmm wonder things hear outatime
uhura cc rochester edu \( outatime \) subject thoughts vw corrado vr6 keywords vw corrado nntp posting host uhura cc rochester edu organization university rochester rochester , new york lines 6 curious people thought vw corrado vr6 \? 's outatime
alchemy tn cornell edu \( brian chung \) subject market access organization loyal taxpayers lines 41 distribution world nntp posting host alchemy tn cornell edu article agate berkeley edu robohen ocf berkeley edu \( henry robertson \) writes , , get carried away keep mind owning car korea luxury ruling class afford every government agency worth salt finds reason levy tax car ownership last heard , seven different fees pay car believe sort petty bureaucratic new president kim young sam wants eradicate basically , think rules came place bureaucrats backgrounds wanted revenge ruling class exchange , 's like hyundai screwed smaller companies , perpetuating vicious cycle faith korean people potentially build cars well anyone else , hyundai cars seem reflect tensions within society , screwy components wo n't work together stubborn like mule , car either wo n't go forward wo n't stop gasp hm , i'm sure whether silly remark serious remark case misconceptions , think henry robertson n't updated data file korea since mid 1970s owning car korea longer luxury middle class people korea afford car least one car problem korea , especially seoul , many privately owned cars , well taxis buses , rush hour become 24 hour phenomenon place park last time heard , back january , kim administration wanted legislate law potential car owner provide parking area , like japan also , henry would glad know hyundai n't car manufacturer korea always manufactured cars believe back business well imported cars , mercury sable becoming quite popular well , though still quite expensive finally , please ignore henry 's posting korean politics bureaucracy 's quite uninformed h brian chung happiness sig brought alchemy tn cornell edu tea , earl grey , hot frungy , bitnet 210 lake st apt 11 sport kings ithaca , ny
jimb hpindda cup hp com \( james bruder \) subject honda clutch chatter organization hp information networks , cupertino , ca lines 12 anyone else experiencing similar problem \? concerns clutch 92 honda accord 5 speed clutch first used morning , first 4 miles shifting , significant amount clutch chatter things warm clutch shifts smoothly chatter started moved san francisco bay area low humidity environment dealer stated known happen since honda changed asbestos non asbestos clutch material remedy ! ! seems moisture clutch surface causes slipping moisture evaporates comments \?
bell plains nodak edu \( robert bell \) subject honda civic saturn sl1 info needed distribution na expires fri , 7 may 1993 04 00 00 gmt nntp posting host plains nodak edu organization north dakota higher education computing network lines 17 anyone experience honda civic \( ex dx \) saturn sl1 would interested knowing reliable cars , expensive operate \( parts , maintenance , gas , insurance \) , dealers good , actually live economy image another question would expect pay civic ex coupe automatic , air , fm radio \? mail address post group thanks , rob bell plains nodak edu
colello cheshire oxy edu \( robert colello \) subject houston auto insurance organization occidental college , los angeles , ca 90041 usa distribution usa lines 17 hello , moving houston go rice university graduate school living corner university blvd wondering kind liability rates expect relevent info sex male age 23 status single commute none , walking car 1982 ford crown victoria , 4 door anyone check info , similar situation please e mail rates find pay thanks help advance colello delphi com colello cheshire oxy edu
pv9955 albnyvms bitnet subject buying used car reply pv9955 albnyvms bitnet organization university albany , suny lines 14 questions tax used car purchase live new york state , going buy used car know pay tax go register car would like know tax book value car , purchase price also , tax rate used \? owner lives albany \( 8 tax \) , living saratoga 7 tax pay albany tax saratoga tax \? \( difference whole 50 \) one thing , much cost usual 2 year registration \? leave anything \? else might know purchase register used car \? \( 've never done \) thank , peter
adn6285 ritvax isc rit edu subject mr2 noisy engine nntp posting host vaxa isc rit edu reply adn6285 ritvax isc rit edu organization rochester institute technology lines 29 article engr washington edu , eliot stalfos engr washington edu \( eliot \) writes article 1993apr21 ultb isc rit edu adn6285 ritvax isc rit edu writes sound describes common older toyota engine ever heard n't know relevance observations oil changes , simply makes noise annoying , mind hear well engine right behind left ear \) think 1 6 mr2 's would describe engine sweet little loud , 2 2 mr2 's ca n't imagine unbiased person paying compliments sounded like ex 's rusty chevy 1 6 would want redline music , 2 2 would short shift would shut new camry 2 2 features balance shafts guess since mr2 getting axe , late anything mystery turbo mr2 2 liters engineers enough integrity prevent abuses also , europe mr2 non turbo also 2 liters usual , american market \( japanese must good \) gets dogs fair , also got turbo , europeans well , 1 6 music ears often turn stereo run towards red line nice twisty roads toyota engines idle strange bottom sound ca n't describe better like older characteristic sound idle know i'm referring \? mike
kevinh hslrswi hasler ascom ch \( kevinh \) subject opel owners \? originator kevinh nath reply kevinh hasler ascom ch organization ascom hasler ag lines 10 article 585 usenet ucs indiana edu , mliggett silver ucs indiana edu \( matthew liggett \) writes manta 's also hot fun cars thanks , n't laughed much ages ! kevinh hasler ascom ch
stdvax \( dirk \) subject questions insurance companies \( esp geico \) news software vax vms vnews 1 4 b1 organization goddard space flight center robotics lab distribution usa lines 32 article 66758 mimsy umd edu , davew cs umd edu \( david g wonnacott \) writes i'm considering switching geico insurance , heard assign specific agent policy claim worried might real pain make claim also heard try get rid accident i'm determining whether things true anyone geico made claim \? 'd interested hearing whether satisfied service whether trouble renewing policy i'm also interested good bad stories liberty mutual state farm geico supports \( reads gives police \) laser radars known picky sports cars radar detectors \( although maryland insurance board rules consistantly \) turbos basically seems need use insurance ever n't want told would n't insure \( perfect record \) corvette even though would insured another specialty insurance must insure cars think rep n't know talking geico cheap ever file claim prepared dropped think areas two tickets geico never see dime help state farm higher good response picky geico
singer mit edu \( matthew r singer \) subject opel gt article 1993apr21 reply singer mit edu \( matthew r singer \) organization mit lincoln laboratory lines 11 opel gt 's \? i'm wondering enough starting mail list matthew r singer mit lincoln laboratory \( 617 \) 981 244 wood street singer mit edu lexington , 02173
george howell goucher wb3ffv ampr org \( george howell \) subject keyless entry distribution world organization goucher college , towson , md reply george howell goucher wb3ffv ampr org \( george howell \) lines 24 bruce james writes without key , though , steering column would sacrificed necessarily maybe sort servo lock something along lines could used acheive effect maybe solenoid type thing george howell ooo ppp aaa rrr mm mm p p r r ppp aaaaa rrr p r r ooo p r r ford living american george howell george howell goucher wb3ffv ampr org
george howell goucher wb3ffv ampr org \( george howell \) subject impala ss going distribution world organization goucher college , towson , md reply george howell goucher wb3ffv ampr org \( george howell \) lines 23 gm always screwed rest divisions favor corvette current platform exception camaro firebird load crap keep people realizing buy one instead corvette save 10 , 000 like idea impala ss , really wanted impress , would throw big 454 imagine cops taurus police package 3 0 3 8 litres stare taillights george howell ooo ppp aaa rrr mm mm p p r r ppp aaaaa rrr p r r ooo p r r ford living american george howell george howell goucher wb3ffv ampr org
organization arizona state university asuacad bitnet subject mercury villager minivan good buy \? distribution usa ncube com lines 15 article ncube com , bob ncube com \( bob kehoe \) says either choice good , beware experience reasonable mileage v6 average city driving , 21 avg highway nissan quest city , though first tanks like v6 remarkably smooth johnny p stephens sig file upgrade backorder distance learning technology day arizona state university opinions expressed mine
battan sequent com \( jim battan \) subject 300zx sc300 \? \? \? nntp posting host cruncher sequent com organization sequent computer systems inc lines 17 article 1993apr19 ns1 cc lehigh edu ip02 ns1 cc lehigh edu \( danny phornprapha \) writes i'm getting car near future 've narrow 300zx sc300 might better choice \? driven , owned sc300 14 months , say depends 're great cars fact , wife saving pennies get 300zx convertible year 300zx handles like dream , sc300 rides like dream fit finish excellent , lexus gets nod customer satisfaction 're attractive , hideously expensive resale value sc better zx 300zx n't available traction control , makes handful slippery surfaces jim battan sequent computer systems , beaverton , battan sequent com uunet ! sequent ! battan 1 503 578
agate ! iat holonet net ! psinntp ! psinntp ! megatest ! ! alung subject \( geico annoyance \) alung megatest com \( aaron lung \) distribution rec autos organization megatest corporation lines 21 article noose ecn purdue edu rjwade rainbow ecn purdue edu \( robert j wade \) writes want annoy geico , call give fake name real car specs get quote tell expensive current state farm allstate insurance still send quote etc tear quote stuff prepaid return envelope mail back actually 12 current state farm rates actually , 've bad habit stuffing whole bunch garbage junk mail along whatever else anybody 's prepaid envelopes almost burst believe pay postage weight heh , heh , heh anyways , n't tear quotes yet sometimes use quotes insurance quotations leverage haggle lower rate elsewhere usually works advantage lower aaron
etxmst sta ericsson se \( markus strobl 98121 \) subject car ! \? nntp posting host st83 ericsson se reply etxmst sta ericsson se organization ericsson telecom ab lines 31 article ctron news ctron com , smith ctron com \( lawrence c smith \) writes article 1993apr21 reed edu , rseymour reed edu \( robert seymour \) writes article 1993apr20 wam umd edu lerxst wam umd edu \( 's thing \) writes called bricklin manufactured 70s engines ford , n't bricklin six cylinder \? confusing delorean \? sure delorean v8 delorean yucky prv v6 engine joint venture \( note spelling \) , renault volvo prv engine mighty boring piece junk approx n't like revs look delorean movie back future note changed engine sound big v8 real delorean n't sounds half good also note every time spin tires movie ground wet delorean ca n't make burnout dry road ! weak engine thats mounted rear axle makes almost impossible markus larry smith \( smith ctron com \) , n't speak cabletron need ask \? liberty freedom whatever want , freedom whatever able
cc lut fi \( jarmo \) subject manual shift bigots nntp posting host cc lut fi organization university technology , finland lines 13 kissane black berkeley edu \( john g kissane \) writes matter interest anyone know autos popular us europe rare \? \? \? wondering many cars sold finland small cheap cars \( least compared cars note 120 car tax \) could n't expect good auto 1 3 l engine \? bigger cars , however , sold autos
david wheaton edu \( phil \) subject mgb questions summary need pre purchase help organization wheaton college , il distribution na lines 35 son considering purchase 71 mgb , substantially restored odometer rolled , ca n't sure actual mileage engine drive train apparently n't touched restoration , except new carb plans vacuum compression checks see might tell us engine body visible rust , interior new , tires , front brakes \( sure back \) , battery , bumpers misc parts paint checked places , scuffed , allegedly wind blown car cover seemed handle ok , except soft front shocks questions problem areas common mgbs check \? brakes seem soft rather ineffective expect way braking action \? seemed accelerating stop expect , given 4 cylinder engine \? top place , reach number snaps weather cold vinyl stretch fit warms , forever shrunk \? normal wire wheels painted , usually chromed \? given rather limited description , would reasonable price \? gee , turned little long sorry brother owned jag \( car ! \) 're obviously sports cars help questions , suggestions things investigate would surely appreciated phil david wheaton edu
westes netcom com \( estes \) subject states charges sales tax trade \? organization mail group x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 11 western states laws charge sales tax difference new car 's price trade 's value \? know california charges full value new vehicle regardless trade california resident , legal buy car state california without also paying california sales tax \? california enforce law requires also pay california sales tax \( top state tax \) \? estes internet westes netcom com
kevinh hslrswi hasler ascom ch \( kevinh \) subject warning \( please read \) originator kevinh nath reply kevinh hasler ascom ch organization ascom hasler ag lines 33 article 1993apr20 voodoo ca boeing com , tomm hank ca boeing com \( tom mackey \) writes power steve n't \? n't go shoot kids tossing rocks onto cars \? make sure good job though n't miss 'cause like big rocks take kids mean absolutely correct streak runs much deeper stronger anything ever experienced even height 60 's racial struggles absolutely convinced kids today concept right wrong , human intelligence turning greatest ever walked earth prevail unless rest humanity decides best interest stand feral humans , individuals start taking responsibility protection state individuals turn authorities police protection , police government soon composed feral humans originally sought protection thought nutters ones throwing bricks bridge gee , guess touched hot button 'd better go cool somewhere institution \? tom mackey \( 206 \) 865 tomm voodoo ca boeing com boeing computer services uunet ! bcstec ! voodoo ! tomm 7k 20 , p box 24346 , seattle , wa 98124 0346 kevinh hasler ch
c23st kocrsv01 delcoelect com \( spiros triantafyllopoulos \) subject ad said nissan altima best seller \? organization delco electronics corp lines 23 article srgenprp sr hp com sr hp com \( mark \) writes bought altima \( like much \) yes little stanza logo ever placed trunk altima big silver letters , stanza far left trunk lid see get close car know look inconspicuous fact first clue stanza owners manual called car nissan stanza altima anybody know nissan way \? avoid paperwork associated certification brand new car , etc ad purposes 's brand new nameplate , paperwork 's still stanza spiros spiros triantafyllopoulos c23st kocrsv01 delcoelect com software technology , delco electronics \( 317 \) 451 0815 gm hughes electronics , kokomo , 46904 post , therefore armm
michal cs cmu edu \( michal \) subject pennsylvania insurance , limited tort option nntp posting host sp cs cmu edu organization school computer science , carnegie mellon distribution usa lines 16 article oasys dt navy mil glouie oasys dt navy mil \( george louie \) writes coverage also applies existing car insurance policy anyone understand limited tort option means lower rates opt , expensive opt \? \( layman 's terms please \) \? good deal ignore \? i'm type sue anyone drop hat type report every little ding limited tort option lower rates choose , ca n't sue others pain suffering , still sue economic loss sue wrecked car medical bills , ca n't sue pain suffering least , 's understand michal
etxmst sta ericsson se \( markus strobl 98121 \) subject manual shift bigots nntp posting host st83 ericsson se reply etxmst sta ericsson se organization ericsson telecom ab lines 41 article lut fi , cc lut fi \( jarmo \) writes kissane black berkeley edu \( john g kissane \) writes matter interest anyone know autos popular us europe rare \? \? \? wondering many cars sold finland small cheap cars \( least compared cars note 120 car tax \) could n't expect good auto 1 3 l engine \? bigger cars , however , sold autos would guess high price gas europe \( compared us \) always favoured 4 cylinder manuals small engines autos real bore turn question around , automatics common us \? guess tried couple manuals torque rich v8 's sixties clutches turned real killers use feet depress , lived also , automatic v8 engine real fun drive markus '75 chevy camaro 350 '87 205 1 4 4 speed n't ask car ask car
gallant oasys dt navy mil \( robert gallant \) subject questions insurance companies \( esp geico \) reply gallant oasys dt navy mil \( robert gallant \) organization carderock division , nswc , bethesda , md lines 11 would gladly spend twice money insurance , rather using geico supply radar guns police also want make radar detectors illegal also ask detector \( probably put high risk group refuse insure \) know people geico due accident fault rob gallant oasys dt navy mil
donald wendel yob sccsi com \( donald wendel \) subject compilation problems distribution world organization ye olde bailey bbs houston , tx 713 520 1569 reply donald wendel yob sccsi com \( donald wendel \) lines 54 aw 85 caprice classic 120k miles finally reached threshold total number mechanical problems forced post \) anyone might able give pointers one , please e mail post ! aw 1 making turns , especially accelerating , usually loud thunk rear car sounds like could differential wheel bearing , aw 2 starting car , get blue \( oil \) smoke exhaust 5 10 seconds exhaust valves bad valve stem seals aw 3 brakes pedal travel feel comfortable , master cylinder full fluid worn pads , rear brakes adjusted tight worn drums 90 low pedal complaints usually rear brake problem aw 4 tranny tranny problems seem slowly getting worse takes almost 2 seconds downshift 3rd 2nd heavy throttle application , recently , reluctant shift 2nd 3rd fluid \( checked car running tranny put gears back park , per haynes manual \) red clear , full mark possible valve equipped one also could cable aw 5 springs around shot 4 new shocks , car still skips bumps turns moderate high speed hard change \? reconditioned \? difficult front easy rear expensive 75 100 front less 50 rear also kind dangerous work front springs without proper equipment slmr 2 1a put spot remover dog spots gone ! ye olde bailey bbs 713 520 1569 \( v 32bis \) 713 520 9566 \( v 32bis \) houston , texas yob sccsi com home alt cosuard
etxmst sta ericsson se \( markus strobl 98121 \) subject extensions nntp posting host st83 ericsson se reply etxmst sta ericsson se organization ericsson telecom ab lines 26 wondering country extension sometimes n't clue people writing extensions know ch switzerland se sweden fi finland uk uk com us \? edu us \? \( com edu us \? \) fr france please feel free add list markus '75 chevy camaro 350 '87 205 1 4 4 speed n't ask car ask car
eliot engr washington edu \( eliot \) subject review audi s4 quattro organization skulls 'r us lines 175 distribution world reply eliot engr washington edu \( eliot \) nntp posting host lanmola engr washington edu 's since 've reviewed car today paid visit old friend whose love audis overwhelming makes sucessful living selling without delay , get 1993 audi s4 1 \) servotronic steering familiar servotronic , name speed variable power steering manufactured zf used audis bmws servotronic past couple months , based magazine reviews drives audi 90 cs quattro audi fwd quite happy report s4 , servotronic suppose due fat tires , servotronic loaded , far best implementation tried far perfect , mind , 'd much happier option could refuse , s4 , longer consider bad enough feel entire car ruined steering still tad light , accurate suppose chassis sends back much information makes driver 's hands feel accuracy s4 's steering also room improvement consider s4 's steering better japanese competition , primarily japanese believe feel engineer completely 2 \) engine ! pressure 110 miles clock expect s4 producing anywhere close putting 10000 miles later , still , car packs terrific punch turbocharged machine , unusual encourages lazy driving e low revs , high gear flexible one could hardly believe 's 2 2 liters displacement move 3700 pound car around fashion maximum torque available 1950 rpm 7200 rpm redline , car pretty much left third day translates speed range something like 20 100 mph one normally associates large capacity technical achievement throttle response right good atmospheric engine fact , would even put engines shame almost unnecessary fun use feature rev engine familiar , s4 engine features 15 seconds additional turbo boost passing sort like lighting jet fighter , one could , right foot , third gear , blast car 30 80 moments simply gas far numbers go , maximum torque available mode shoots 270 lb ft incredible 2 2 liter takes moments develop well worth waiting since quite heavy car , one 's body parts flung around like say , corrado vr6 acceleration smooth strong , somewhat similar riding accelerates runway takeoff also , one treated distinctive entertaining whistle turbo entertaining sound come refined sounding 5 banger yes , audi refined 5 point 7200 rpm sounds 2000 outstanding , quite standards good 6 , e g 12 valve bmw 'd say terms refinement , e willingness rev , , lack harshness full acceleration better many however , lost refinement process characteristic 5 cylinder bark made older engines , terribly refined 20 valve turbo 5 sounds pretty except whistle full boost subjectively , 'd rate vw vr6 engine far musical turbo 5 also , audi 's v8 also far musical , race car pressed , though none match grunt hint engine 's true capacity occurs one taking rest turbo come near stop extra inertia permanently engaged 4wd system , one somewhat delicate feeding clutch prevent embarassing stall alternately one could use revs cases small price pay fantastic engine think audi america offer automatic option car , offer \( though extremely small numbers \) 5 speed much v8 characteristics engine perfect automatic ironically , europe available none offered land marketing ugly heads 3 \) chassis 've noticed audis tend wide wheels relatively modest tire widths car comes size 225 50 uncommon however , attractive 5 spoke wheels less 8 inches wide , bulge whatsoever combined flared wheel arches , s4 mouth macho , yet look rough concrete , becomes immediately clear new 100 body style made significant advances structural rigidity well road noise suppression suppose two inter related , digress use cliche , s4 's body feels like carved stone flex totally undetectable , even going rough roads super rigid body like stiff springs stiff cause excessive harshness s4 's ride quality never worry lexus , also draw comparisons trucks pony cars servotronic steering already mentioned consider inhibit spirited cornering able test car 's cornering powers without much think new concept work car fat tires , talking understeer oversteer practically meaningless banked highway ramp , went slow started applying power went around could feel g forces build point skin face sideways yet car totally completely obedient throttle steering inputs felt limits even close approached g forces , entire affair going around curve strangely tell car want end story think starting relate reviewers highly impressed honda 's clinical efficiency unable fall love car brakes good stop car pretty well , though 've read prone fade surprised , since s4 brakes base audi 100 fwd harder pads would help , turn would lead wooden response cold starting see trend among luxury sports sedan makers extra weight offset additional braking capacity ls400 's fade performance nothing brag neither q45 's legend 's brake fade days seem forgotten virtue everybody 's attention focused anti lock capability 4 \) comfort car sporty abilities , comfort levels also excellent cabin beautifully appointed , carbon fiber panel inserts place wood trim '92 s4 expected gizmos heated seats , power seats , seat memory , power glaring trip computer , removed audi n't gotten work reliably yet means car boost gauge real disappointment taking account much turbo dominates performance unusual germans , s4 comes honda style moonroof , well intelligent dial sunroof position rotary switch noise levels , including engine tire noise low would n't consider advantage area significant enough sway potential buyer 5 \) conclusion even though able afford audi s4 sticker price , car bargain one takes account offer competition 20 valve turbo 5 real gem , even n't produce ferrari sounds luxury sports sedan maker offers utter security quattro wheel drive , worth extra money safety features also top notch 1994 side impact standard compliant , elegant automatic seat belt dual airbags 100 series audis outstanding government crash tests gets thumbs overwhelmingly capable rather exciting eliot
jmh hopper virginia edu \( jeffrey hoffmeister \) subject houston auto insurance organization itc uva community access unix internet project distribution usa lines 37 article 1993apr22 630 cheshire oxy edu colello cheshire oxy edu \( robert colello \) writes hello , moving houston go rice university graduate school living corner university blvd wondering kind liability rates expect relevent info sex male age 23 status single commute none , walking car 1982 ford crown victoria , 4 door anyone check info , similar situation please e mail rates find pay thanks help advance colello delphi com colello cheshire oxy edu suggestion look current insurance card , name accross top telling insurance company insured call information houston get number branch office houston area , call insurance company rates vary depending amount coverage want , want carry comp collision \( probably 82 \) , driving record mentioned none things posting anyone give accurate information like said , pick phone make calls , wo n't kill jeff
jkjec westminster ac uk \( shazad barlas \) subject service indicator bmw organization university westminster lines 18 derek tool available reset service indicator bmws lights come back 2 3 weeks tool fact illegal \( europe atleast \) often case unsuspecting buy used bmw weeks later , lights come ! , know tool anyone else \? changing oil every 15 , 000 miles thats ok newer audis , require every 12 , 000 miles \( talking oil change \) query drive car carefully \? like sudden acceleration etc \? yeah , 15 , 000 oil change seems quite reasonable drive kinda fast 'd get bit tight 15 , 000 thingy \( point note first light came 3k , n't mean others come every 3k \) shaz
jkjec westminster ac uk \( shazad barlas \) subject mr2 noisy engine organization university westminster lines 10 quick note shape uk first came , 3 models base model auto box engine camry 2 0 ! ! ! well found model longer profitable toyota since 've also noticed auto depreciated lot next model surprise surprise huh \? oh lucky americans turbo mr2 \( luck \( shaz
magnus acs ohio state edu \( scott j \) subject rfi art clutchless shifting nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 7 used drive truck years back rode old driving 30 yrs time would use clutch get truck moving could shift 13 speed lightning quick , , without slightest rake gear smooth silk amazing shifting demonstration 've ever seen ! said still n't know anyone would want shift synchronized tranny without clutch \? \?
rick aus tx us \( rick \) subject c service rip organization department redundancy dept summary 's law austin lines 28 article 1993apr23 chpc utexas edu chpc utexas edu \( albert wu \) writes went place called american car care centers check car c leak checking , told leak compressor seal end , addition labor check , charged 12 dollars pound freon , although evacuated c afterwards leak first , fair charge pound freon \( 12 plus tax \) \? second , unfair \? albert wu information lucky enough live city austin , tx , auto c system checked found leaks , must repaired time , evacuated ordinance unique \( think \) city austin freon subject increasing taxes , 12 2x cost recovered freon required purchased car withdrawn matter practice , shops charging fee less cost freon removed system another quality service conscious city rick austin , texas experience domain rick aus tx us get n't bang path ! org ! ! rick get want
utrc utc com \( bruce winters \) subject warped brake discs '91 taurus l lines 54 nntp posting host 192 19 33 90 organization united technologies research center article 1993apr14 13000 advtech uswest com joe advtech uswest com \( joe thielen \) writes xref rec autos misc consumers newsgroups rec autos , misc consumers path ! ! psinntp ! psinntp ! uunet ! wupost ! zaphod mps ohio state edu ! magnus acs ohio state edu ! csn ! cherokee ! joe joe advtech uswest com \( joe thielen \) subject warped brake discs '91 taurus l message id 1993apr14 13000 advtech uswest com sender news advtech uswest com \( radio free boulder \) nntp posting host advtech uswest com organization u west advanced technologies references 1993apr8 8994 bnr ca 47 140 3 216 1993apr14 ryn dec com date wed , 14 apr 1993 22 58 21 gmt lines 23 article 1993apr14 ryn dec com balsamo stargl enet dec com \( antonio l balsamo \( save wails \) \) writes bnr ca \( dana merrill \) subject warped brake discs '91 taurus l anyone else problem \? well , '92 taurus gl apparently still n't fixed problem rotors 've got miles clock i'm getting rotors \( pads \) replaces tonight expense course tony owned ford mustang 4 endless brake problems bad thing kinds problems spent 2 months shop first 2 years owned \( bought new \) got rid , likely buy ford product future thing really ticked ford treated jerks unbelievable ! joe past years owned 3 mustang gts 91 bird sc problem recall bird brake problem ford dealer replaced rotors pads rotors warp 10k miles problem fit finish problems bird 'll never buy ford bruce winters utrc utc com united technologies research center e hartford ct usa
scott psy uwa oz au \( scott fisher \) subject manual shift bigots organization university western australia lines 30 nntp posting host psy uwa oz au cc lut fi \( jarmo \) writes kissane black berkeley edu \( john g kissane \) writes matter interest anyone know autos popular us europe rare \? \? \? wondering many cars sold finland small cheap cars \( least compared cars note 120 car tax \) could n't expect good auto 1 3 l engine \? bigger cars , however , sold autos australia cars manual \( privately owned anyway \) \? sure , think something fact car industry past closely aligned europe us past 's aligned asia scott scott fisher scott psy uwa oz au ph aus 61 perth \( 09 \) local \( 380 \) n department psychology w e university western australia perth , nedlands , 6009 perth , w v joy jaguar flat battery , blown oil seal unsympathetic wife , outside small remote town , 3 15am cold wet winters morning
jgoss gaia torolab ibm com \( jeff goss \) subject honda clutch chatter reply jimb hpindda cup hp com 's message wed , 21 apr 1993 22 01 32 gmt lines 31 organization ibm toronto lab article hpindda cup hp com jimb hpindda cup hp com \( james bruder \) writes jimb hpindda cup hp com \( james bruder \) date wed , 21 apr 1993 22 01 32 gmt organization hp information networks , cupertino , ca path eclipse ! yktnews watson ibm com ! hawnews watson ibm com ! newsgate watson ibm com ! news ans net ! howland reston ans net ! usc ! sdd hp com ! hpscit sc hp com ! ! ! hpindda ! jimb newsgroups rec autos lines 12 anyone else experiencing similar problem \? concerns clutch 92 honda accord 5 speed clutch first used morning , first 4 miles shifting , significant amount clutch chatter things warm clutch shifts smoothly chatter started moved san francisco bay area low humidity environment dealer stated known happen since honda changed asbestos non asbestos clutch material remedy ! ! seems moisture clutch surface causes slipping moisture evaporates comments \? problems slightly different clutch problem 90 prelude see rec autos tech detail problem false engagement point actual one also seems affected weather noticeable \( annoying \) damp cold days dealer says ca n't reproduce problem think 'll sell car jeff goss
glouie oasys dt navy mil \( george louie \) subject nissan nomenclature \( manual shift bigots wanted \) reply glouie oasys dt navy mil \( george louie \) organization carderock division , nswc , bethesda , md lines 13 rec autos , grahamt phantom gatech edu \( graham e thomas \) writes currently know 240sx , known elsewhere 200sx graham e thomas blah blah blah blah blah kind interesting always assumed 240sx named 2 4 liter engine uses likewise 200sx uses 2 0 liter engine n't true \? george
steven ritter andrew cmu edu subject pennsylvania insurance , limited tort option organization psychology , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 24 distribution usa nntp posting host andrew cmu edu reply oasys dt navy mil opinion , limited tort option best thing casey ever done basically , limited tort means give right sue pain suffering , unless one following conditions met 1 medical bills resulting accident exceed x \( x number like 50 , 000 i'm sure exact number \) 2 accident caused drunk driver \( mean , driver drunk \) 3 get good lawyer good case \( basically , appeal regain right sue , 's almost chance ever happening \) giving right sue pain suffering still sue medical costs , actual damages , etc agreeing limited tort , essentially giving right asshole treats every accident entry litigation lottery exchange , get substantial reduction rates save 150 year unfortunately , insurance companies managed scare confuse people much 5 go limited tort guess 's ok people opted , insurance companies would pushing harder repeal
daniel u holbrook dh3q andrew cmu edu subject car ! \? organization carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 27 1993apr22 2550 ericsson se nntp posting host po4 andrew cmu edu reply 1993apr22 2550 ericsson se bricklin car manufactured company started malcolm bricklin , , believe , canadian first one import subarus , later responsible importing , believe anyway , idea would really sell would sports car , one incorporating bunch innovative safety features bricklin built beasts , safety sports car remember early 70s movement among car makers design experimental safety cars , recognize general appearance bricklin big 'ol bumpers , etc anyone recall safety features \? engine american v 8 , ford think right personally , kinda like way look , remember old magazine articles , performance half bad choice colors , though , tended towards 1970s green highly visible , suppose delorean , hand , dog nice looking \( imo \) motor dan dh3q andrew cmu edu carnegie mellon university applied history standards n't like , others groucho
dwjz bnr ca \( doug zolmer \) subject honda clutch chatter nntp posting host reply dwjz bnr ca \( doug zolmer \) organization bell northern research ltd lines 23 article hpindda cup hp com , jimb hpindda cup hp com \( james bruder \) writes anyone else experiencing similar problem \? concerns clutch 92 honda accord 5 speed clutch first used morning , first 4 miles shifting , significant amount clutch chatter things warm clutch shifts smoothly chatter started moved san francisco bay area low humidity environment dealer stated known happen since honda changed asbestos non asbestos clutch material remedy ! ! seems moisture clutch surface causes slipping moisture evaporates comments \? clutch '92 honda civic ex v \( ex u \) 's annoying think , worse humidity high dealer also claims 's nothing since clutch self adjusting hydraulic design yeah , right doug zolmer internet dwjz bnr ca disclaimer opinions bell northern research ltd ottawa , ontario , canada dept service control point routing services design conform !
cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu \( oriolefan uiuc \) subject deal blue book value auto \? organization university illinois urbana lines 38 newton convex com \( vicki newton \) writes process buying new auto n't decided yet whether sell current car trade part new auto purchase know blue book value car 2825 offered give blue book value car wondering standard measure negotiating resale price hope get money someone else exactly blue book value based \? know year \( 88 \) car low mileage \( 50 , 000 \) excellent working condition dings exterior \( nothing major \) facts alter fair selling p rice car \? looking rip anyone , naturally want get best price car thanks million , veek think blue book nada handbook used car prices , \? blue book value given retail wholesale value \? \? \? blue book value n't set stone , though low milage , extra addons stuff like increase resale price car , may want head local library borrow friends blue book read sort stuff paid 400 bb \( retail \) '87 civic 1990 , perfect condition 14 5k miles guy desparate sell , new kid way , etc , good price remeber , buyer , sort brains , using blue book , pick fair price chintan amin llama uiuc edu chintan amin university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig construction hard hat area
fowler gatech edu \( c b fowler \) subject deal blue book value auto \? organization georgia tech research institute lines 37 article 1993apr22 news eng convex com newton convex com \( vicki newton \) writes process buying new auto n't decided yet whether sell current car trade part new auto purchase know blue book value car 2825 offered give blue book value car wondering standard measure negotiating resale price hope get money someone else exactly blue book value based \? know year \( 88 \) car low mileage \( 50 , 000 \) excellent working condition dings exterior \( nothing major \) facts alter fair selling p rice car \? looking rip anyone , naturally want get best price car thanks million , veek dealer make money three ways , let 1 \) new car cost \( remember hold back \) , 2 \) arranging financing dealership , 3 \) screwing trade keep deal dealer simple eliminating 2 3 buying car dealer 's cost meaningless makes 1000 trade gets bank blue book \( need know 're talking average wholesale average retail \) good guide value car selling , try get average retail , chances 'll done ok careful selling acquaintances ever want become friends c b fowler gtri chris fowler gtri gatech edu
informatik uni erlangen de \( oliver \) subject pontiac option codes wanted organization csd , university erlangen nntp posting host informatik uni erlangen de lines 12 summary pontiac option code listing needed anyone listing pontiac 's three letter option codes mean \? thanks oliver oliver graduate student computer sciences university erlangen , germany 're killing , peg ! oh , shut , al , like care
rjwade rainbow ecn purdue edu \( robert j wade \) subject thoughts vw corrado vr6 keywords vw corrado organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 18 article 1993apr22 galileo cc rochester edu uhura cc rochester edu \( outatime \) writes curious people thought vw corrado vr6 \? 's outatime butt , handles nice , junk drove brand new one day key already seems stamp keys pot metal controls seemed really junk clutch heavy door locks , power buttons , sunroof controls etc seemed really cheap way would pay 24k baby airbag either also drove svx day 30k , going door much better buy , imo although sports touring coupe roomy etc corrado small sports car ergonomics leather svx twice nice corrado 's smooth strong engines
uni ulm de \( \( \) \) subject marten \( problems \) organization \( research institute applied knowledge processing \) lines 29 hi everybody well n't know known problem big state europe places happened lot get new honda civic repaired marten choose car stay one night damn little animal damaged almost everything plastic rubber never thought little could much damage car owners good known method rid animal \? \? \? except waiting night long beneath car gun \? \? \? help form would appreciated much ! ! ! ! e mail uni ulm de y'all
rjwade rainbow ecn purdue edu \( robert j wade \) subject geico annoyance organization purdue university engineering computer network distribution rec autos lines 6 want annoy geico , call give fake name real car specs get quote tell expensive current state farm allstate insurance still send quote etc tear quote stuff prepaid return envelope mail back actually 12 current state farm rates
apollo hp com \( barry \) subject best radar detector valentine 1 \? reply apollo hp com organization hewlett packard company , chelmsford , lines 56 originator nntp posting host ch apollo hp com article 1993apr21 sequent com , troy sequent com \( troy wecker \) earlier commented valentine 1 jimf centerline com replied value units bogey counter n't really go called feature gimmick explanation thanks jim good comments opinion understand valentine 1 tell microwaves coming front , rear two antennas coming interpreted side bogey bogey counts determined sources relative strength one another even reflections source sounds like analysis based hypothesis actually using valentine 1 'd like give feedback based real life keep valentine 1 advanced logic mode rarely lights christmas tree time middle major shopping area makes sense since 8 sources coming many different directions found valentine 1 consistent reporting regardless moving cars area found directional indication useful one case two radar traps set within one mile passed first radar trap , direction indication changed detector set pointing forward direction radar detectors would assumed due reflection valentine 1 knew high probability another trap ! occasions , directional helped discern false alarm true alarm example , pass source , direction indicator changes directional also allows focus attention signal might coming instead look place car approaching rear detector leaks , tell signal coming rear car passes verify source detectors , would unable would assume radar trap none 've valentine 1 several months find added features useful barry barry apollo ch hp com chelmsford uk expert center 508 tn 436 chelmsford ,
jason roth andrew cmu edu subject 's rush \( fast \) organization junior , architecture , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 24 distribution usa stdvax nntp posting host po4 andrew cmu edu reply stdvax still amazing germany cars traveling 155 mph 65 mph 3 4 lane road around washington dc ca n't keep traffic flowing 55 germans organised ca n't europe matter , , 9 months , unless 're pretty organised tried , 'd whole bunch tanks backed border , waiting jerk right lane trying get make left turn , course , caused germany invade belgium one important lessons history anything , including late afternoon , cause germany invade belgium dave barry happy ! '93 sl2 , blue green 's inventive asshole 've ever met really puts lot energy
usc edu \( total stranger \) subject help 89 mitsubishi galant gs transmission organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 43 distribution world nntp posting host phakt usc edu hi , need help problem 1989 mitsubishi galant gs transmission car 5 speed manual since car bought new , shifting 2nd 3rd , unless slowly carefully , makes popping hitting sound dealer mitsubishi customer service \( reached 800 \) say normal car \? year ago , , stick shift handle got stuck attempting put reverse 1 shifter would budge clutch effect 2 front tires would budge , even clutch fully depressed 3 clutch released engine would die 4 assuming gear engaged shifter stuck , could make car move acted neutral \( except dying clutch released \) 5 finally able release shifter someone rock car back forth \( less inch \) , depressed clutch shifter 6 shifter acted normally happened , took dealer , checked clutch , k checked transmission , k exact problem couple months ago , last week dealer says nothing mitsubishi \( 800 \) says never heard problem , dealer could reproduce problem car three occurances , car parked head first garage , since front wheels stuck , car could towed dealer releasing shifter \( hence temporarily solving problem \) dealer , mitsubishi , refused send someone check car stuck know wrong transmission \( shifting 2nd 3rd \) , getting stuck random , ca n't get dealer fix need help mechanical problems , handle mitsubishi hints suggestions greatly appreciated , sorry bore long post thanks ,
miranda com \( sean \) subject choice gauges organization observatory software lines 21 article vcd hp com dmunroe vcd hp com \( dave gauge \) writes free reign design instrument cluster , gauges would choose beyond basic set \? turbo boost necessary car fuel reserve warning coolant level warning would also nice gauge would cycle across different sensors fi system o2 sensor , altitude , air flow 'd love get tranny diff brake temp would great big ass tach \) sean labs , mitchell , , , inc sean , ruler realm com
gwm spl1 spl loral com \( gary w mahan \) subject drag coefficients organization loral software productivity laboratory lines 4 could someone explain make sense drag coefficients \( e cd \) mentioned magazines understand lower numbers signify better aerodynamics mean real world way calculate new top speeds \( assuming car rev limited top speed \) mileage benefits identical car cd reduced 34 33 thanx
jkjec westminster ac uk \( shazad barlas \) subject alarm systems worthwhile \? organization university westminster distribution usa lines 8 talking car alarms , certain cars country fitted alarm 're talking porsches stuff \( insurance companies \) decided make move , insisted car fitted scorpion alarm \( 've changed \) everyone 's spent fitting scorpion alarm upgrade system sad huh \? \( shaz
jkjec westminster ac uk \( shazad barlas \) subject comparing saabs bmw 's organization university westminster lines 7 dont know saabs whenever magazine always say 're little annoying keep occuring every often would n't expect car n't anything like ever happen bmws \? maybe 're cars \) \( ! \) shaz
jkjec westminster ac uk \( shazad barlas \) subject lexus infiniti organization university westminster lines 8 yeah bmw 2 7 litres 535 3 4 btw someone please tell put someone else 's file reply person 's file go newgroups together \? \( ps mail personally \) thanx advance
chuck gatech edu \( chuck \) subject warning \( please read \) organization lines 5 distribution usa nntp posting host gatech edu enough , already let 's take discussion newsgroup 's appropriate us tired would like get back old cars , imho chuck \( chuck gatech edu \)
lds loral com \( thad \) subject autos dealer keywords buying car organization loral data systems distribution nj lines 26 article 1993apr22 porthos cc bellcore com prefect cc bellcore com \( lam , thanh \) writes got price quote 18 , 875 00 camry v6 w abs toyota dealer came back dealer two weeks sign purchase agreement told salesperson made error pricing walked dealer wonder kind practice common toyota dealers \? price quote written salesperson 's business card binding \? would comments similar experience written quote mailed us salesman one haggle toyota dealers camry w abs , leather , etc price seemed fair , went take offer , discovered certain extra cost items n't included original written quote would extra 1100 , spite fact written quote , said nothing could bottom line , quotes worthless appears toyota dealers think 've got superior auto n't deal walked , went bought new lh car \( eagle vision tsi \) n't regret one bit ! thad mail lds loral com
guo acuson com \( guo \) subject toyota land cruiser worth \? organization acuson mountain view , california lines 26 tvervaek col hp com \( tom vervaeke \) writes wife looked , drove one last fall 1992 model underpowered could imagine driving mountains colorado anything approaching highway speeds read new 1993 models newer , improved hp engine i'm quite serious laughed salesman face said 's broken feel powerful used driving jeep 4 0l engine believe 92 's land cruisers \( land \) 3 0l , 4runner , also underpowered \( personal opinion \) big cars , roomy , nothing spectacular \( \) \( \) tom vervaeke email tvervaek cs itc hp com hewlett packard co phone 719 590 love animals taste \( \) \( \) land cruiser l6 4 5 engine 200 hp 280 , drove california , power enough high price reason buy
nataraja rtsg mot com \( kumaravel natarajan \) subject dirty diesels \? nntp posting host opal12 organization motorola inc , cellular infrastructure group distribution na lines 43 hhd0 harvey gte com \( horace dediu \) writes article nataraja opal12 , nataraja rtsg mot com \( kumaravel natarajan \) writes heard diesels considered cleaner burning gas engines emit less carbon monoxide , hydrocarbons , oxides nitrogen \( co , hc , nox \) put lot particulate matter heard something legislation discussed clean diesel emissions anything works install scrubbers diesels \? feasibility installing trucks cars \? would different catylitic converter \? 'd assume easier , since 're removing particulate matter instead converting gasses let 's hear people 's opinions really bugs emissions diesels cleanest , considered polluting banned passenger cars california bunch crap diesel fuel choice enviromental benefit europe 's illegal reason particulates nothing carbon annoyance worst nothing beats diesel cycle efficiency emissions , torque engine durability 's also cheaper clear things \( posted question way \) debating co worker diesels claimed cleaner burning gas engines said extra junk put offset savings greenhouse gasses made claims , one question carbon \? said harmless , wanted know get rid suggested scrubbers \( figured would harder expensive install cats \) exist designs \? \( 'd like know answer final question \) convinced diesels cleaner otherwise btw , \( named subject dirty diesels knew would get reaction people knew cleaner gas engines 'd read \) vel natarajan nataraja rtsg mot com motorola cellular , arlington hts il
smorris sumax seattleu edu \( steven morris \) subject v4 v6 v8 v12 vx \? organization addiction studies program , seattle university lines 6 nntp posting host sumax seattleu edu remove legend v 8 list , 's 6 steve morris , internet smorris sumax seattleu edu addiction studies pgm uucp uw beaver , uunet ! ! ! sumax ! smorris seattle university phone \( 206 \) 296 \( dept \) 296 \( direct \) seattle , wa
opel com \( john kennedy \) subject us sold opels \( opel owners \? \) reply com \( john kennedy \) organization second source , inc , annapolis , md lines 53 gibbonsa fraser sfu ca \( darren gibbons \) writes i'm looking information opel cars ask , model \? well , sad truth , i'm entirely sure , 's two seater , roll headlights , hard top , really sporty looking friend one sitting yard really nice condition , body wise , transmission seized , n't run anyone info cars \? engine compartment looks really tight work , fine shape quite interested would opel gt , sold country '69 '73 originally 1100 cc engine , later replaced 1900 cc based old kadett drive train suspension , leaf springs rear single leaf spring front looked good , limited performer also discussion thread manta models 1971 opel introduced new line models , 1900 series , also known model numbers 51 , 57 , etc cars newer engine available two four door coupes , station wagon , sport coupe , known europe manta time , two 30 series cars , sold numbers , also 1900 engine kadett suspension sport coupe , \( model 57 \) also available , \( \) , blacked hood , tach , fog lights , mechanically except numerically higher rear end ratio 1973 sport coupe also named manta us 1973 last year gt country , us bumper height regulations fact fiat exercised option factory opel leasing build gts 1900 series continued 1974 minor body differences 1975 , manta , 1900 sedan \( also called \) wagon available bosch electronic fuel injection cars also larger brakes wider wheels cars starting compete 1975 buick century low price leader time , last opels imported us 1976 1979 , cars buick opel badges still sold buick dealers , isuzu marks idea call opels instead changing neon signs various models 50 series cars dominated showroom stock racing 70 's class , known serious 2002 competition parts still available number sources \( still '73 manta two '75 sedans trick parts could collect 20 years \) john kennedy uunet ! opel ! second source , inc com annapolis , md
dan uucp \( dan \) subject honda headrest stuck ! advice please ! reply dan com organization dynamic data electronics distribution rec lines 18 87 accord driver 's side headrest accidentally put backwards jammed according dealer , way get spend several hours seat second time heard happening , wonder whether 's easier way get headrest back anyone else ever dealt problem \? advice would appreciated ! please email , summarize interest dan com dan uunet ! camco , fluke ! ! dan 206 743 , 742 \( fax \) st sw dynamic data electronics , wa , usa , astro sings cocaine
apple com \( michael \) subject 300 series , vw passat organization apple computer , inc , cupertino , california lines 39 nntp posting host apple com erasure sl cc emory edu \( jeremy \) writes new 300 series mercedes benz wagon particularly , would like hear power \( manual \) comparisons saab 9000 line mercedes would helpful manual transmission must , b running cannot get manual transmission car north america seems buyers \( , maybe accurately , distributors \) interested manual trannies '93 300 line comes 217 hp engine earlier years 177 hp '87 300e , mere 177 hp auto tranny , find sufficient power normal driving situation always nice , ca n't complain test drove saab 900 cse last fall impressions 1 \) awesome power , especially , turbo really comes 2 \) get power really hard tight corner , front wheel drive causes understeer heavily , hook corner desirable handling trait , common powerful front drive cars \( cse mercedes rear drive , problem \) 3 \) huge interior cargo space 4 \) shifter ever encountered drove 5spd absolutely numb might able get used n't know also n't like location , far , far right shifter 's position , got impression saab really designed car automatic 5 \) rather noisy engine buzz , rattles , \( mercedes exhibit characteristics \) also check new bmw 525 touring wagon version fits class saabs michael apple com
alan elroy jpl nasa gov \( alan \) subject deal blue book value auto \? organization image analysis systems group , jpl lines 41 distribution na nntp posting host jpl nasa gov mail bounced , article 1993apr22 news eng convex com write process buying new auto n't decided yet whether sell current car trade part new auto purchase traditional wisdom says almost certainly better selling n't mind extra hassle trade purchase makes getting best price dealership confusing know blue book value car 2825 assume retail two prices , one retail one wholesale really want retail price get blue books also adjustments make low mileage extras particular car look stuff also keep mind blue book prices averages country may apply area example , blue book prices low california better way finding much car might worth call around see 's selling \( used lots one \) looking local papers similar cars checking prices might time efficient take small loss \( rather hold 6 months best price \) offered give blue book value car n't know mean acquaintance would make darn sure paid , , 's check full delivery 's real temptation selling pseudo friend make sure get money paying full start \( 's check cash \) would go elsewhere probably sell car used car lot get wholesale 's probably safer approach selling private party alan mountain dew ! ames ! elroy ! alan breakfast important meal alan elroy jpl nasa gov day
hhtra usho0b hou281 chevron com \( haddock \) subject questions insurance companies \( esp geico \) distribution usa organization chevron lines 37 article 66758 mimsy umd edu , davew cs umd edu \( david g wonnacott \) writes i'm considering switching geico insurance , heard assign specific agent policy claim worried might real pain make claim also heard try get rid accident i'm determining whether things true anyone geico made claim \? 'd interested hearing whether satisfied service whether trouble renewing policy i'm also interested good bad stories liberty mutual state farm stay away geico recent car driver issue article geico giving free laser guns police departments increase 're speed limit enforcement article also said get speeding ticket premium increase dramatically based much limit remember correctly , 20 , 'll get something like 65 increase radar detector , denied coverage dropped immediately one accident claim dropped many years geico , father 0 tickets made 0 claims , accident filed 800 claim dropped immediately since state farm years complaints state farm 20 years complaints travis
gvl unisys com \( steve \) subject mercury villager minivan good buy \? distribution usa organization paramax systems , , pa lines 15 nntp posting host ivy paramax com article ncube com bob ncube com \( bob kehoe \) writes curiously \( consider test vehicles \) , found mercury higher build quality nissan curious built mercury factory steve stephen internet ivy paramax com integration phone \( 215 \) 443 7500 paramax systems corporation , pennsylvania
petebre elof iit edu \( brent peterson \) subject drag coefficients organization illinois institute technology , chicago lines 28 article 1993apr22 wdl loral com gwm spl1 spl loral com \( gary w mahan \) writes could someone explain make sense drag coefficients \( e cd \) mentioned magazines understand lower numbers signify better aerodynamics mean real world way calculate new top speeds \( assuming car rev limited top speed \) mileage benefits identical car cd reduced 34 33 n't remember formula 's hand awhile since took aerodynamics n't used stuff since cd related drag force effects top speed fuel consumption drag force car aircraft greater vehicle 's engine overcome reached top speed \( autos course also overcome rolling resistance \) since drag opposes vehicle 's motion , engine must make burning fuel anyway , since auto rather complex , drag , pressure , etc either found , using numerical method anyway flow around cylinder drag cd \( q 2r \) drag force , q flow velocity r radius get rough \( rough \) estimate , set r 1 2 car 's width , q car 's speed knowing cd , find drag force car would need overcome bp
nyx cs du edu \( charles ellis \) subject deal blue book value auto \? organization university denver , dept math comp sci lines 8 's toll insurance companies auto dealers rip case accident trade charlie ellis nyx cs du edu charlie ellis nyx cs du edu
subject review 1989 ford taurus sho david bonds cutting hou tx us \( david bonds \) reply david bonds cutting hou tx us \( david bonds \) distribution world organization cutting edge houston , tx 713 466 1525 lines 13 gk occasionally , trouble shifting reverse shifter gk refuses enter gate , often grind synchros trying gk get gear 'll watching carefully next couple gk months enter 1st , wait 2 3 seconds go reverse use synchros , 'll never \( least n't \) ground em fit using technique cutting edge bbs \( cutting hou tx us \) pcboard 14 5a system houston , texas , usa 1 713 466 1525 running uupcb
subject review 1989 ford taurus sho david bonds cutting hou tx us \( david bonds \) reply david bonds cutting hou tx us \( david bonds \) distribution world organization cutting edge houston , tx 713 466 1525 lines 57 gk hear tires car get really expensive gk currently goodyear gt 4s cost previous owner 500 gk four try eagle gas , wear better , cost less , lose little handling , quieter i'm going switch next set , new rims \( twists \) afford 'em time gas wear gk whole new ritual pedal ! also , began gk wonder strong brake really \( today , backed gk parking spot today started drive away noticed gk glowing brake light oops \) mine strong enough let car move 's , even 're giving enough gas normally move 1st might need brake adjustment gk driver 's power window closed way gk thing happens parents 1989 mercury sable oddly , gk windows work smoothly watch closely , glass actually torque motor , seems stronger drivers window others gk i'm liking interior amenities day gk great 've found location \( seats \) pain , like moved dash \( pop \) '91 model year , much better gk really feel like n't deserve car really ca n't gk believe could afford got car ten years gk ahead schedule \) thing got black '89 65 5k miles 8k july '92 gk 've put together responses questions cars , gk well posts useful information cars 'll gk posting form faq soon grabbed archived thanks ! gk anyone interested starting mailing list , please speak ! gk n't know resources purdue start one , gk maybe someone 'll starting one summer , one way \( current software use dose n't support mailing lists , rsn list , i'm going upgrade another package \) , , nobody else beats make announcement goes cutting edge bbs \( cutting hou tx us \) pcboard 14 5a system houston , texas , usa 1 713 466 1525 running uupcb
email sps mot com \( jim \) subject toyota land cruiser worth \? nntp posting host 222 18 80 28 organization major semiconductor company lines 37 article iftccu ca boeing com , iftccu ca boeing com \( paul \) wrote based experience '79 \( hard top jeep style model \) would definitely give new model consideration market older models well built unless toyota lost mind , would assume , proven otherwise , newer models inherited qualities ancestors two major differences running gear \( i'm aware \) need study '79 solid front axle housing whereas newer models independant front suspension solid axle theoretically stronger new cruisers independent suspension front still run straight axle , coils 4runner one independent front cruisers incredible wheel travel system reliable newer model , experience tell independant front suspension , doubt , compromise made satisfy typical user , never need real utility vehicle second difference type transfer case used newer models i'm sure , think went full time 4wd wheel drive system older lock type advantages disadvantages 91 cruiser full time 4wd , center diff locks low range brother 91 incredibly sturdy vehicle done 4 trails moab without tow 93 later even better bigger engine locking diffs jim 85 toyota 4wd pickup email sps mot com 72 lemans sport convertible tempe , arizona
email sps mot com \( jim \) subject toyota land cruiser worth \? nntp posting host 222 18 80 28 organization major semiconductor company lines 25 article hp col col hp com , tvervaek col hp com \( tom vervaeke \) wrote wife looked , drove one last fall 1992 model underpowered could imagine driving mountains colorado anything approaching highway speeds read new 1993 models newer , improved hp engine i'm quite serious laughed salesman face said 's broken feel powerful used driving jeep 4 0l engine believe 92 's land cruisers \( land \) 3 0l , 4runner , also underpowered \( 91 92 cruisers run 4 0l straight 6 ft torque plenty highway , marginal highway 93 much improved 4 2l straight 6 lb torque big cars , roomy , nothing spectacular take rough trails , 'll see difference cruiser order magnitude better highway ability jim 85 toyota 4wd pickup email sps mot com 72 lemans sport convertible tempe , arizona
usc edu \( fireball \) subject opinions early 80 's \? \? organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 22 distribution usa nntp posting host usc edu summary considering buying car die \( engine fire , insurance agent said probably \) , market another vehicle saw within expected price range wondering anybody could relate experiences namely 1 power \( 305 \) \? 2 front wheel drive make maintenance difficult \? 3 one power window power seat work , expensive items replace work \? 4 long engines usually last \( \) \? 5 experiences good bad , opinions thanks ryan scf usc edu
autodesk com \( roger \) subject fast organization autodesk inc , sausalito ca , usa lines 24 dcd se houston geoquest slb com \( dan day \) writes article armory centerline com jimf centerline com \( jim frost \) writes mustang sho platform designed 130mph , would come better seatbelts , supportive seats , stronger passenger compartment cage , better brakes , stiffer suspension , different tires , body design takes advantage aero effects keep car ground words , 'd 1993 rx7 yeah , 'd pay 30 , 000 go 5 0 lx mustang bang buck
autodesk com \( roger \) subject '87 grand national organization autodesk inc , sausalito ca , usa lines 9 anyone one would care share information \? concerned turbo reliable \? 's gas milage please , thank roger
quip eecs umich edu \( dennis j holt \) subject honda clutch chatter organization university michigan eecs dept , ann arbor lines 31 article 1993apr22 bnr ca dwjz bnr ca \( doug zolmer \) writes article hpindda cup hp com , jimb hpindda cup hp com \( james bruder \) writes anyone else experiencing similar problem \? concerns clutch 92 honda accord 5 speed clutch first used morning , first 4 miles shifting , significant amount clutch chatter things warm clutch shifts smoothly chatter started moved san francisco bay area low humidity environment dealer stated known happen since honda changed asbestos non asbestos clutch material remedy ! ! seems moisture clutch surface causes slipping moisture evaporates comments \? clutch '92 honda civic ex v \( ex u \) 's annoying think , worse humidity high dealer also claims 's nothing since clutch self adjusting hydraulic design yeah , right one reasons sold '92 civic vx clutch although di n't notice worse weather , perhaps always around told honda changing asbestos non asbestos linings , began around 1990 someone could make good money selling old fashion variety 's legal manufacture days feeling since many car makers problem , 's poor design engineering problem part honda three things look honda products clutch chatter , bad brake rotors , rusty exhaust systems
stafford lobby ti com \( ron stafford \) subject warning \( please read \) keywords brick , truck , danger lines 61 nntp posting host 192 153 237 26 organization article 1993apr22 morgan com sergei morgan com \( sergei \) writes sergei morgan com \( sergei \) subject warning \( please read \) keywords brick , truck , danger date thu , 22 apr 1993 13 39 56 gmt article 1993apr20 voodoo ca boeing com , tomm hank ca boeing com \( tom mackey \) writes article c5joit e31 bcstec ca boeing com neil bcstec ca boeing com \( neil williams \) writes reformatory juviniles blocks away caught 14 year old put cover overpass , else could \? execute grounds reformatory , required rest inmates , soon possible incident quick sure trial quite serious cause effect nothing else ever make dent work hitler youth , newark teenager car stealing , student riots similar cases show death behaviour shaping even intimidating factor teenagers teens defy death strong teens executed wo n't ! policy cuts way repeat offenders please flame n't agree capital punishment teen 's far rock throwing concerned well , sad tragic incidents stem fact kids dumb , even smarter ones completely lack deductive thinking ca n't consequences actions beyond immediate ones unfortunately , cars 80 mph make explosive mix also unsupervised proper supervision , would throwing rocks parents cannot provide minimal supervision needed stop activity , allowed children \) notice smiley \) however , hardly believe intent kill cases , rather desire see glass \( admit mercilessly attacking moscow busses slingshot tender years \) , akin child breaking toys witnessed several even projects like stacking bricks railroad track technical details venture completely dominate possibility human \( heck , 10 , vague concept human \) mind i'm quite sure technical challenge matching predicting speed thrown stone gets car smack windshield completely occupies teen , leaving much room considerations sergei ron stafford texas instruments incorporated \( 214 \) 917 2050 p box , ms stafford lobby ti com dallas , texas
ak954 yfn ysu edu \( albion h bowers \) subject v4 v6 v8 v12 vx \? \? organization st elizabeth hospital , youngstown , oh lines 46 reply ak954 yfn ysu edu \( albion h bowers \) nntp posting host yfn ysu edu previous article , smith ctron com \( lawrence c smith \) says article usenet ucs indiana edu , mliggett silver ucs indiana edu \( matthew liggett \) writes v16 must one somewhere believe bugatti 's coming \( \) one something like 4 turbos mucho macho hp one cool price , heard rate , point , i'm pretty sure , indeed , one production tho rather limited bugatti 's labeled bugatti nothing bugatti 's , understand ppl wanting build silly use name sell drew may thinking cizeta v16t , n't reached production , least yet bugatti , well , agree matt , ai n't top dog , ai n't sexy looking , ai n't real bugatti fact , looks like 's tight competition butt ugly car decade award n't bad least bugatti compound curves compared slab sides bugatti quad turbo v 12 \( thing 4 three cylinder turbo engines tied together \) also bugatti 's board directors hand development 's much bugatti likely get today 's world much like enzo ferrari 's son allowed take part ferrari well n't know cars v4 , number motorcycles could n't tell ones , motorcycles look alike 's funny friends say \) gp 500cc motorcycles v 4s , vf line hondas v 4s \( vf vf , including race bike present vfr \) noted built v 4 recent history hf , pretty italian coupe al bowers dod 900 alfa ducati hobie kottke 'blad iaido nasa well goodness sakes n't know girls ca n't play guitar \? mary chapin carpenter
ejv2j virginia edu \( erik velapoldi \) subject dirty diesels \? organization university virginia distribution na lines 30 nataraja rtsg mot com writes heard diesels considered cleaner burning gas engines emit less carbon monoxide , hydrocarbons , oxides nitrogen \( co , hc , nox \) put lot particulate matter heard something legislation discussed clean diesel emissions anything works install scrubbers diesels \? feasibility installing trucks cars \? would different catylitic converter \? 'd assume easier , since 're removing particulate matter instead converting gasses let 's hear people 's opinions vw mercedes particulate traps also , vw uses kind turbocharger jetta helps reduce particulates well , although n't know mechanics many diesel cars , busses , trucks europe equipped catalysts traps effort clean diesel emissions , already well legal limits anyway 's shame gm soil diesel 's reputation passenger cars prevent resource devotion research making efficient engine even ahead gas engines emissions erik
born ibm com \( christopher j born \) subject mercury villager minivan good buy \? distribution usa news software ibm os 2 pm rn \( nr 2 \) v0 vishnepolsky r rogers lines 20 reply born vnet ibm com disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host raleigh ibm com organization ibm networking development 93115 asuacad bitnet asuacad bitnet writes nissan quest city , though first tanks like v6 remarkably smooth agreed ! mercury villager i'm impressed v6 past , 've biased towards manual standard transmissions \( owned 5 speed , awesome ! \) , settled villager pleasantly surprised 's performance btw , consumers report report villager , alluded funny noises , 've listening n't noticed anything unusual chris christopher j born born vnet ibm com
ak954 yfn ysu edu \( albion h bowers \) subject drag \? \? organization st elizabeth hospital , youngstown , oh lines 43 reply ak954 yfn ysu edu \( albion h bowers \) nntp posting host yfn ysu edu previous article , gwm spl1 spl loral com \( gary w mahan \) says could someone explain make sense drag coefficients \( e cd \) mentioned magazines understand lower numbers signify better aerodynamics mean real world way calculate new top speeds \( assuming car rev limited top speed \) mileage benefits identical car cd reduced 34 33 's pretty complex , cd n't whole story either cd cars usually calculated based frontal area car large car good cd could get drag force smaller car poorer cd calculate drag use formula 1 2 rho v 2 cd drag force \( lbs \) , rho local air density \( ft 3 \) , v velocity \( ft \) , frontal area \( ft 2 \) note pieces called 1 2 rho v 2 sometimes called dynamic pressure \( fancy aero term air pressure force \) note power p f v p power \( ft \) , f force , drag case \( \) v velocity \( ft \) note put whole equation one \( substituting force \) get velocity cubed term 's huge increases power result little increases speed ditto decreases cd 100 mph car reduce cd 34 33 , new top speed \( sound trumpet fanfare \) 101 mph sorry al bowers dod 900 alfa ducati hobie kottke 'blad iaido nasa well goodness sakes n't know girls ca n't play guitar \? mary chapin carpenter
tim nagy andrew cmu edu subject mgb questions organization 's office , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 29 nntp posting host andrew cmu edu wheels n't chromed , painted silver grey accelerating stop n't light weight car n't pull make reach snaps , pulled couple top replacing usually n't work let sit th e sun , open car couple hours , try , gently ! ! ! ! continually blew 4 connecting rod bearing , sure much oil n't expect much smooth ride lever arm shocks hold road , bladder ultra expensive supposedly rebuilt j c whitney sell shock replacement kit uses standard shocks brake clutch master cylinder , addition clutch slave work made world changes sure carb original type replacement 1970 dual oil side draft carbs ask clutch ever replaced replace engine tranny pulled unit need , mine school lots maintenance use every day
dchan cisco com \( derek chan \) subject service indicator bmw organization cisco lines 49 distribution world nntp posting host cisco com originator dchan cisco com article 1993apr22 westminster ac uk , jkjec westminster ac uk \( shazad barlas \) writes derek tool available reset service indicator bmws lights come back 2 3 weeks tool fact illegal \( europe atleast \) often case unsuspecting buy used bmw weeks later , lights come ! , know tool anyone else \? changing oil every 15 , 000 miles thats ok newer audis , require every 12 , 000 miles \( talking oil change \) query drive car carefully \? like sudden acceleration etc \? yeah , 15 , 000 oil change seems quite reasonable drive kinda fast 'd get bit tight 15 , 000 thingy \( point note first light came 3k , n't mean others come every 3k \) shaz shaz , hmm service indicators works way 5 green , 1 yellow , 1 red indicators initially green indicators minutes start car computer actually sense drive car time goes green indicators start go one one yellow indicator turn red indicator go get service time green indicators service mechanic \( \) reset service indicators computer starts counting expect tool \( procedure \) reset green lights come yellow red lights go wonder people oil change themself without knowing reset indicator 's first european car changing oil 15 , 000 miles surprise 's big plus \) wonder could happen since oil lose lubrication ability time , thought 's oil vehicle determines often change oil bmw owner net \? response welcomed ps initial question service indicator bmw derek
nosubdomain nodomain \( brent \) subject improvements automatic transmissions nntp posting host organization bnr , inc lines 48 article 1993apr21 westminster ac uk , jkjec westminster ac uk \( shazad barlas \) writes wanted know auto , keep gear n gas stick gear 've never tried sure works screw \? 're bit debate ah yes , neutral slam know gm tested old 's 's shifting reverse forward gears repeatedly holding engine high rpms units hold incredibly well also recommended technique rock stuck vehicle mud think hydraulics task , mechanicals may object breaking something 0 02 agree durability old trannies gm never intentionally '68 firebird 400 ci conv gear , would leave trannie low \( read 1st \) , grab hold , hit pedal , tires grabbed , take reached 57 60mph turbo 400 auto would shift \( read 2nd \) leave 10 15 foot double stripped rubber ground everyone knew time quite impressed 60 mph trannie held fine motor mounts would last year tied motor large chains oh yea , fyi pontiac 400 ci bored 0 04 large valve heads holley 650 spread bore cam \( n't remember specs \) , headers , dual exhaust get \( conv , leather seats , power windows power top , ac , cruise etc \) oh yea , also pulled \( weights \) front removed lead pellet accelerator pedal \( damn us regulations \) oh , miss car ! ! ! 0 60 6 7 sec 6 14 mpg \( well n't miss mpg \) front wheels 4 ground three quick pedal bent pushrods , stripped rocker studs , every 6 12 months \( really wonder kind rev 's turning tach \) improvements automatic transmissions anyone seen one lately \? 'd buy back sec ! ! ! open top brent
dance ee washington edu \( lee \) subject extensions organization image computing systems lab , university washington lines 28 nntp posting host dance ee washington edu article 1993apr22 ericsson se etxmst sta ericsson se writes wondering country extension sometimes n't clue people writing extensions know ch switzerland se sweden fi finland uk uk com us \? edu us \? \( com edu us \? \) fr france please feel free add list markus nz new zealand au australia jp japan kr korea lee image computing system lab u washington edu
bobc pyramid unr edu \( bob conrad \) subject new anti campaign organization university nevada , reno department computer science lines 16 article 1993apr23 freenet carleton ca freenet carleton ca \( nigel allen \) writes press release national crime prevention council campaign urges drivers remember lock , roll , look around lock car doors immediately entering leaving car roll windows far possible look around alert avoid situations suspicious reminds blurb police school paper along lines , police called reported suspicious people around business building turns two black men leaving building homework late one night
edb tih \( arne \) subject v4 v6 v8 v12 vx \? nntp posting host edb tih organization trondheim college engineering x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 17 devil reincarnate \( ssave ole cdac com \) wrote curious knowing commericial cars today v engines v4 n't know v6 legend , mr3 \? mr6 \? v8 n't know v12 jaguar xjs please add list thanks , ssave ole cdac com
tom wetzel twetzel ucs indiana edu subject replacement custom seats , get \? nntp posting host twetzel ucs indiana edu organization indiana university x useragent nuntius v1 1 lines 14 article 1993apr26 colorado edu jerry bowman , bowmanj csn org writes car talking \? camaro , chevelle , gto , nova , etc bunch places get 68 corvette , n't want put corvette seats original seats shape uncomfortable hell i'm going store find set drive vette catalogs i'm looking generic type seat modify brackets cushion height overall width concern 've looked local without success would like find pair cheapo 's use summer tom
vlasis cybernet cse fau edu \( vlasis theodore \) subject 1994 mustang organization cybernet bbs , boca raton , florida lines 63 know , i'm ford fan , must say , i'm looking forward next mustang faith fine product , desireable camaro know , 's mho true thats opinion beat ford market camaro firebird , really words production vehicles limited end year , keeping selling prices msrp part since many twitching camaro fans would n't press ford hurry mustang since final wait could worth besides , bow tie fanatic gonna buy mustang anyway true would n't take free mustang honest next mustang ford 's highest profile car attracts way attention camaro firebird 's heritage embedded general public n't lie believe ford forfeit fyi already bad current mustang ca n't even compete new camaro without using active imagination right cars compare '93 camaro , think 20 , 000 car perform exotics swearing look stats n't lie comparable cars 's class , price know , intelligent , critical like , mustang bites , man ! already beginning predict mustang camaro comparable performers , usual also agree , subject one never except maybe track \) unless ford gets , romeo n't seriously believe designed mark viii , \? hey , imagine potential modified lt 1 ! ! ! ! ! ! ! folks years surpass levels performance achieved late '60 's , thats scary ford vs chevy people must live planet detroit like say , enough horsepower anything fly put v 8 twin garret 4s yugo get 7 qm thats useless still yugo loose race track , street detroit beings compared ultra long throw stick shifts 5 0 93 mr2 turbo 93 rx7 \( buy 6 mos \) \? differential rx7 compared differential 5 0 sounds every turn \? way 5 0 camaro drums rear breaks hello , 90 's \? vlasis theodore software engineer say signatures
reilly fnal gov \( rob reilly \) subject changing brake fluid necessary organization fermilab lines 23 distribution world nntp posting host fnal gov article 1993apr23 gmuvax gmu edu , gmuvax gmu edu wrote hi 've seeing articles changing brake fluid wondering really necessary 86 toyota corolla , 94000 process preventative maintenance wondering something add list things information would greatly appreciated really love car would like keep long possible thanx lisa sign manual jeff goss 's answer , absorbed water rust master cylinder calipers could suddenly lose brake fluid
music erich triumf ca \( fred w bach \) subject dirty diesels \? organization triumf tri university meson facility lines 57 distribution na nntp posting host erich triumf ca news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article 1993apr22 665 virginia edu , ejv2j virginia edu \( erik velapoldi \) writes nataraja rtsg mot com writes heard diesels considered cleaner burning gas engines emit less carbon monoxide , hydrocarbons , oxides nitrogen \( co , hc , nox \) put lot particulate matter heard something legislation discussed clean diesel emissions anything works install scrubbers diesels \? feasibility installing trucks cars \? would different catylitic converter \? 'd assume easier , since 're removing particulate matter instead converting gasses let 's hear people 's opinions vw mercedes particulate traps also , vw uses kind turbocharger jetta helps reduce particulates well , although n't know mechanics many diesel cars , busses , trucks europe equipped catalysts traps effort clean diesel emissions , already well legal limits anyway 's shame gm soil diesel 's reputation passenger cars prevent resource devotion research making efficient engine even ahead gas engines emissions erik sure n't know measure regards diesel motors cars , trucks , busses , think probably measuring wrong pollutants , wrong time , certainly find offensive drive behind diesel bus diesel truck diesel cars stink ! 's always roll windows panic time one comes ducks front driving family n't think combustion mixture kept good control diesel engines , 's stink invisible , pollutants reduced diesels yeah , well ! \? someone forgot visible , kind , , far concerned , kind bad de stinking diesel vehicles 'll keep traffic signs cleaner , fred w bach , operations group internet music erich triumf ca triumf \( tri university meson facility \) voice 604 222 1047 loc 327 278 4004 wesbrook mall , ubc campus fax 604 222 1074 university british columbia , vancouver , b c , canada v6t 2a3 opinions , make read , think , question necessarily reflect views employer fellow workers
hhd0 harvey gte com \( horace dediu \) subject 300 series , vw passat organization gte laboratories , waltham , lines 9 go mercedes , afford think 300 wagon starts around 50k , although could 60k comparison cars listed horace dediu gte laboratories \( 617 \) 466 40 sylvan road internet gte com waltham ,
batman bmd trw com subject viper car alarms lines 82 article cs uiuc edu , cs uiuc edu \( ronald e garnett \) writes hello auto enthusiasts ! recently car mangled \( broken \) decided get alarm installed 's viper 400 shock sensor , sensors door , ignition cutoff , automatic door locks alarm installed syclone works great shock sensor sensitive , much practical motion sensor car n't trigger car rocked gently wind , kind shock sets even kicking tire sets works great worries hood hatch someone could pry gently enough , could bypass alarm shock sensor adjustable two cycles adjust sensitive enough way could open hood without setting alarm although , know cannot pop hood syclone without setting alarm , yet zero \( none ! \) false alarms system alarm tells disarm whether activated absence able trace every alarm 's cause false alarm i'm also wondering easy would thief crawl underneath car cut battery cable disable alarm guess would possible depending vehicle syclone tight engine compartment would tough supplemental power supplies put viper alarm , n't one really think someone wants car bad , alarm wo n't keep , even supplemental power supply viper also sells fancy field disturbance sensor supposedly detects people car primarily convertibles convertible looked feature detail alpine actually makes better radar unit want get one zones shut independently one side car pedestrian traffic something else would trigger alarm , shuts zone , rather , pulls tighter n't see real benefit unless convertible leave top avoid voice alarm added radar package talks people walk saw one installed lotus esprit kids would taunt seeing close could get get back owner finally disabled , defeats purpose mind i'm interested opinions netters problems viper general real happy viper one feature really like tune preferences arm passively disable arming disarming lock unlock doors alarm armed disarmed like features hate alarm arms , mine flashes lights like door lock feature , although careful take keys n't know left keys car passively arms locks doors , meticulous taking keys , takes care rest car 89 ford probe gt used great shape ! ron garnett looked seriously alpine system real nice system , money motion sensor standard instead shock sensor shock sensor better viper shock sensor better \( 2 cycle \) optional alpine one , imho think viper gives lot good value money n't absolutely system except maybe one james bond lotus eyes anyone know get one installed \? maybe van world trade center , huh \? merrill
leapman austin ibm com \( scott leapman \) subject \? \? \? \? originator leapman junior austin ibm com reply login austin ibm com organization ibm austin lines 5 tried stuff 1991 saturn sc , disappointed returned refund polished car 2 hours could n't remove marks thin film finish also attracted dirt without stuff
leapman austin ibm com \( scott leapman \) subject car alarms one \? originator leapman junior austin ibm com reply login austin ibm com organization ibm austin lines 9 get another discussion relative merits car alarm , let 's go assumption one desired question remains , one \? 've owned , satisfied , enough get another new car alpine highly recommended , clifford 's 2 \? others \? want standard stuff door lock interface , starter kill , light flash , led , mode , passive active , shock motion sensor , etc thanks advice !
c23st kocrsv01 delcoelect com \( spiros triantafyllopoulos \) subject funny car taxes \( market access \) organization delco electronics corp distribution na lines 20 article agate berkeley edu robohen ocf berkeley edu \( henry robertson \) writes keep mind owning car korea luxury ruling class afford every government agency worth salt finds reason levy tax car ownership last heard , seven different fees pay car used tax greece named queen 's mother queen left \( monarchy abolished \) tax stuck similar single purpose taxes stuck \( e help victims earthquake , build metro \) next time someone proposes car tax gasoline tax promising 's temporary , ain't spiros spiros triantafyllopoulos c23st kocrsv01 delcoelect com software technology , delco electronics \( 317 \) 451 0815 gm hughes electronics , kokomo , 46904 post , therefore armm
homi csd4 csd uwm edu \( sammy \) subject changing oil m89 maxima \? organization computing services division , university wisconsin milwaukee lines 15 distribution world nntp posting host 129 89 7 4 originator homi csd4 csd uwm edu hello , another question \) got hands 2 quarts gear oil \( 7 quart \) need know throw car 89 nissan maxima se , ideas \? mix oil stuff , drain first , use stuff know \( one \) drain plug manual transmission maxima , would really appreciate comments also maxima owners , stuff cars \? thanks adv sammy
callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu \( james p callison \) subject v4 v6 v8 v12 vx \? nntp posting host uokmax ecn uoknor edu organization engineering computer network , university oklahoma , norman , ok , usa lines 42 article 1993apr21 191744 3072 ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com \( devil reincarnate \) writes curious knowing commericial cars today v engines v4 n't know \? n't know i4s abundant v6 legend , mr3 \? mr6 \? whole h ! minivans , pickups , car compact range full size range \( exceptions \) much rare one personally know 's still production venerable ford f series pickups think jeep 's big 6 's also straight , i'm big jeep person v8 n't know know \? mustangs , , , camaros , corvettes , thunderbirds , real full size pickups , crown , chevy h h h \) , even japanese european vee v10 dodge viper dodge promises truck v10 v12 jaguar xjs n't use v 12s extensively \? james james p callison microcomputer coordinator , u oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i'm engineer , play one work forecast calls thunder '89 bird sc 's hell thing , killing man take away 's ever gonna munny , unforgiven
c23st kocrsv01 delcoelect com \( spiros triantafyllopoulos \) subject v4 v6 v8 v12 vx \? organization delco electronics corp lines 19 article 1993apr22 telxon mis telxon com joes telxon mis telxon com \( joe staudt \) writes article 1993apr21 191744 3072 ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com \( devil reincarnate \) writes curious knowing commericial cars today v engines v4 n't know thing friend ford \( era early 60 's \) v4 lost bet find hard believe recent cars v4 recent ones \? spiros spiros triantafyllopoulos c23st kocrsv01 delcoelect com software technology , delco electronics \( 317 \) 451 0815 gm hughes electronics , kokomo , 46904 post , therefore armm
daveb ingres com \( dave , hack , 510 748 \) subject manual shift bigots originator daveb lotus reply kissane black berkeley edu \( john g kissane \) reply daveb lotus \( dave , hack , 510 748 \) organization ask group lines 24 article 1993apr21 1501 rtsg mot com , kissane black \( john g kissane \) writes matter interest anyone know autos popular us europe rare \? \? \? wondering primarily milage gas much expensive , people concerned taking liters per kilometer , along narrow old cities , also results smaller cars smaller engines engines usually n't torque mesh well automatic , engines n't work well autos , great concern milage , usual euro car manual \( note many big come manuals 've got money car , 've got money gas , engine drive \) automatics become efficient , bigotry probably reduced still , everyone knows drive manual , cars cheaper one , saves little expensive fuel n't compelling reasons go automatic db
miranda com \( sean \) subject fast organization observatory software lines 9 whole discussion religous war 'd rather '93 rx 7 mustang 5 0l 3 times price 's explain porsches selling folks would rather shrug sean test signature
jkjec westminster ac uk \( shazad barlas \) subject v4 v6 v8 v12 vx \? organization university westminster lines 3 v16 anyone \? anyone heard v16t \? \? \? mainly sold middle east dont strict legislation usa ec
jkjec westminster ac uk \( shazad barlas \) subject nissan nomenclature \( manual shift bigots wanted \) organization university westminster lines 10 thanx craig addition clear confusion 200sx \( usa \) turbo uk performance figures uk 200sx 0 60 6 4s vmax shaz oh one q know new prelude \? well auto version usa \? 've heard japan uk also , guys get auto \?
jkjec westminster ac uk \( shazad barlas \) subject emergency brake opel \( '86 nissan maxima \) keywords nissan organization university westminster lines 5 since 're subject brakes anyone know 4wd vauxhall opel drive rear wheels brakes applied \? vauxhall boast car stable fwd mode braking 4wd mode \? shaz
jkjec westminster ac uk \( shazad barlas \) subject dirty diesels \? organization university westminster distribution na lines 7 yeah , diesels cleaner petrol powered cars even catalysts fitted ! oh citroen even launched sports diesel car world' probably true assume production purposes \( merc benz prototype runs diesel back around 1968 read ! 200 mph ! ! ! \) shaz
jkjec westminster ac uk \( shazad barlas \) subject thoughts vw corrado vr6 keywords vw corrado organization university westminster lines 8 ec , corrado vr6 rated handling car side goes , read article comparing vr6 ford probe \( later launched uk \) vr6 powerful \( even 2 9 instead 2 8 ec \) fun drive etc etc probe slightly smoother engine \( thanx mazda ! \) sum 'both cars fast vr6 bit drive 're prepared work shaz
callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu \( james p callison \) subject extensions nntp posting host uokmax ecn uoknor edu organization engineering computer network , university oklahoma , norman , ok , usa lines 59 article ctron news ctron com smith ctron com writes article andrew cmu edu , daniel u holbrook dh3q andrew cmu edu writes extensions know ch switzerland se sweden fi finland uk uk com us \? edu us \? \( com edu us \? \) fr france dk denmark norway com edu united states , one refers commercial institutions , mental mean , educational institutions gov also pretty much us , refers government institutions internet built backbone , us defense contractor network used extension think mean arpa american association retired persons , seriously doubt 'd want young building anything , de \) identify type organisation internet extended convention countries , us retained old conventions general convention n't country tag , 's us site includes com commercial edu educational mil us military sites gov us gov't non military sites \( eg nasa sites \) org anyone none sites tags non us sites , country extension \( eg xxxx edu au extension saw today \) us sites also use us extension , , mr smith pointed , internet built arpanet backbone , default us sites 's country code would suggest anyone n't know \( wants know non system administrative level \) check book whole internet user 's guide catalog ed krol \( catalog user 's guide \? never remember , copy desk home \) 's good necessarily technical guide internet various utilities \( including usenet \) n't think 's part nutshell series , published o'reilly associates go one news newsgroups , damned figure one \) james james p callison microcomputer coordinator , u oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i'm engineer , play one work forecast calls thunder '89 bird sc 's hell thing , killing man take away 's ever gonna munny , unforgiven
jkjec westminster ac uk \( shazad barlas \) subject radar detectors uk organization university westminster distribution autos lines 3 youy guys know legal radar detector illegal use ! n't bit like owning gun allowed use \? mate switches whenever cops around
edwards world std com \( jonathan edwards \) subject comparing saabs bmw 's organization intranet , inc lines 27 article biz ecs umass edu ecs umass edu \( \) writes hi , would someone like post comparative analysis \( quantitative measures hp etc qualitative feel compare driving feel , handling , noise , etc \) saab 900 9000 's bmw 3 5 series comments comparing 900 9000 handling take saabs bmw 's comparable reliability would nice flaming wars could avoided folks post experiences '82 saab 900 turbo , '87 bmw 325is comparison handling , reliability , overall quality engineering bmw wins hands 5 years sick tired little problems entropic decay saab 6 year old bmw still sweet new see posting western bmw 's suck snow aggressive snows , plus hundred pounds sand back , still try avoid driving snow happily took saab conditions without worry would say single design flaw bmw jonathan edwards edwards intranet com intranet , inc 617 527 7020
bense oasys dt navy mil \( ron bense \) subject dumbest automotive concepts time organization dis claim mine lines 16 article 1993apr24 ns1 cc lehigh edu amh2 ns1 cc lehigh edu \( alois himsl \) writes article 1993apr15 jpl devvax jpl nasa gov , nancy hayduke \( nancy feagans \) writes ashtrays cigarette lighters option forget cigarette lighter plug essential plugging radar detectors lights ashtrays also essential great places keep change tokens would n't rather type standard electrical plug instead fire hazard waiting happen adaptor \? know would , would also prefer placed cup holders instead ashtray \( car came coin holders already built \) ron
adn6285 ritvax isc rit edu subject bmw 528i nntp posting host vaxa isc rit edu reply adn6285 ritvax isc rit edu organization rochester institute technology lines 12 article 1993apr26 westminster ac uk , jkjec westminster ac uk \( shazad barlas \) writes article 1993apr25 ultb isc rit edu adn6285 ritvax isc rit edu writes radio work untill car warms honk horn \( ! \) ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! cant stop killing ! ! ! ! ! dead serious posted actually attempt explanation phenomenon , 'll keep guessing still want responces , got exactly 0 mike
cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu \( oriolefan uiuc \) subject v4 v6 v8 v12 vx \? organization university illinois urbana lines 35 scd ucar edu \( cris hannu \) writes article 1993apr21 191744 3072 ole cdac com , ssave ole cdac com \( devil reincarnate \) writes curious knowing commericial cars today v engines v4 n't know v6 legend , mr3 \? mr6 \? v8 n't know yeah , right bmw v10 's v12 's , ca n't remember auto show ago 850 v12 \( 5l , \) 835 \? 840 \? v12 jaguar xjs please add list thanks , ssave ole cdac com cris hannu high country cray research , inc ncar boulder , co scd ucar edu \) chintan amin university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig construction hard hat area
bense oasys dt navy mil \( ron bense \) subject 's rush \( fast \) distribution usa organization dis claim mine lines 12 article stdvax stdvax \( dirk \) writes still amazing germany cars traveling 155 mph 65 mph 3 4 lane road around washington dc ca n't keep traffic flowing 55 actually , 'd 155 mph 60 mph \( legal speed limit trucks \) two lanes , direction 's hell rush trucks fly \( flying \? cares , rush really something else , draft \) ron
damelio progress com \( stephen d'amelio \) subject 1994 mustang nntp posting host organization progress software corp lines 26 vlasis cybernet cse fau edu \( vlasis theodore \) writes detroit beings compared ultra long throw stick shifts 5 0 93 mr2 turbo 93 rx7 \( buy 6 mos \) \? differential rx7 compared differential 5 0 sounds every turn \? price tag rx7 vs mustang \? part definition mustang affordable masses course ford knows argument , big piece mazda ! take good look mach iii , rx7 , way 5 0 camaro drums rear breaks hello , 90 's \? tragedy , n't think new camaros new mustangs steve 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 alan kulwicki 1992 winston cup champion 1954 1993 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7
adn6285 ritvax isc rit edu subject mr2 seats sale reply adn6285 ritvax isc rit edu organization rochester institute technology lines 40 nntp posting host vaxa isc rit edu article 1993apr26 noao edu , groves noao edu \( lee groves \) writes article 1993apr26 ultb isc rit edu , adn6285 ritvax isc rit edu pair sport seats '85 mr2 sale , blue black owner mr2 , several friends , uncomfortable see ad like known several people lost seats mr2 middle night support celica retro fit trade insurance companies miserable deal cases seats seen sale , often stolen would nice see statement saying came would least help fear someone making buck someone elses expense 'll give seller benefit doubt , people aware vast majority mr2 seats market especially stolen lee \( btw incredible seats 's legit , go ! \) original owner seats original poster take serious offence statement see lot computers advertized net , friend machine net computer ads stolen computers \? learn logic \? seats , replaced much harder \( literally \) celica gts seats due back problem reuse mr2 brackets 's mr2 seats sell attached celica brackets please future think make allegations like hurts mike
callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu \( james p callison \) subject super mega automobile sighting \( \) ! ! ! ! ! exotics together ! nntp posting host uokmax ecn uoknor edu organization engineering computer network , university oklahoma , norman , ok , usa lines 56 article phantom gatech edu grahamt phantom gatech edu \( graham e thomas \) writes jmm4h virginia edu \( blade runner \) writes gt 40 \? ! gotta top 5 favorite cars time list place \? car sale \? come , need details anyways , say wow sighting fine beast remember , mustang forever true king road place used small town \( \) north atlanta n't know car sale , would n't put price window type car anyway damn straight ! far 've heard , unless owner hard , gt 40s sale price mere mortals could afford maybe mustang forever king road , gt 40 n't road legal think gt 40 actually street legal , although particular question moot \( see price figures \) car right hand drive \( n't like \? \) much gt 40 go \? many made \? wish could find shelby american guide included gt 40 registry \( '88 \) precious made \( fifty number springs mind made enough qualify manufacturer 's cup , whichever series shelby broke 's 13 year winning streak '65 \) , accounted last price saw estimated gt 40 little bit 1 , 000 , 000 \( yes , 's right , one million us dollars second worthless piece ferrari would blow doors \) n't recall hand drive configuration , although i'm certain must , sold qualify racing ford 427 \( hi , think , side oiler \) coupled various 4 speed transmissions also used 3 speed manuals lots problems original breaking load 427 layout rear engine , rear drive , bundle snakes exhaust headers remeber bits pieces info , ca n't remember whether applied gt 40 shelby cobra daytona coupe 'll try find reference james james p callison microcomputer coordinator , u oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i'm engineer , play one work forecast calls thunder '89 bird sc 's hell thing , killing man take away 's ever gonna munny , unforgiven
matthews oswego oswego edu subject mg series sale reply matthews oswego oswego edu \( \) distribution na organization instructional computing center , suny oswego , oswego , ny lines 31 originator matthews oswego edu 1954 mg tf frame restoration early '70 's local show winner ! driven little stored inside since mostly collected dirt dust needs attention brake cylinders \( like mg 's \) otherwise ready run chrome paint fancy mechanically excellent engine , , completely machine shop priced 12 , 000 1953 mg td good shape n't run since '70 's needs engine work , rust everything including top , side curtains carpet new n't seen outdoors since '70 's 9 , 500 1952 mg td basket case 'd call parts car , 's good everything seems except tach would make good project car parts car insist apparent rust disaster stored inside since '70 's top new one wire wheels ! looking 4 , 500 three cars sold stand hassles time passed time part company prices negotiable reply via matthews oswego oswego edu u mail p box 1015 315 341 oswego , ny harry matthews internet matthews oswego oswego edu learning resources satellite tv bitnet matthews u n college cable tv voice mail 315 341 oswego , ny alloy pc mho 's mine , u n oswego 's
eliot stalfos engr washington edu \( eliot \) subject horizontally opposed boxer engines \( v4 v6 v8 v12 vx \? organization skulls 'r us lines 76 nntp posting host 192 42 145 4 article 1993apr26 magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu \( brian j queiser \) writes none configurations perfectly inherently balanced , talking balance shafts mass either ends cranks eliminate forces moments , something also pointed n't also say easier add masses add balance shafts \? sad truth makers n't bother put balance shafts big shaky 4 's three cranks refer 1 4 i4 even firing \( 180 deg \) 1 4 k 2 3 j fp 0 mp 0 2 3 fs 4 \( r l \) ms 0 j j 1 4 even firing \( 180 deg \) k 1 4 2 3 fp 0 mp 0 2 3 fs 0 crank spacing ms 2a \( r l \) j j 1 3 1 2 even firing \( 180 deg \) k fp 0 mp 4 3 fs 0 2 4 ms 0 1 3 2 4 ridiculous , kindly explain 's 10 years since studied stuff \) flat 4s i4s potential nearly vibration free subaru nothing i4s general porsche think subaru somehow connecting porsche absurdity , i'm porsche fan big wing dings configurations , overhead , etc , etc , etc , around nearly 100 years point trying make everybody settles orthodox inline 4 , using horizontally opposed 4 , unique market segment porsche also uses flat six 911 , 's problem \? n't see claim engine good porsche 's simply pointing use configuration porsche want ad campaigns , think far blatant excesses eliot
dchan cisco com \( derek chan \) subject service indicator bmw organization cisco lines 7 distribution world nntp posting host cisco com originator dchan cisco com thanks recommendations decide ignore service indicators oil change every 3000 miles thanks responses derek
hsk com \( \) subject new mercedes diesels keywords automotive diesels organization systems ltd lines 16 hi fellow auto enthusiasts ! anyone info new 4 valve per cylinder diesels mercedes working \? specs outputs , engine size , direct indirect injection \? , etc would welcome hear late year , next year \? \? thank advance replies ! hsk com
bowmanj csn org \( jerry bowman \) subject replacement custom seats , get \? organization university colorado boulder , ocs lines 20 nntp posting host fred colorado edu article usenet ucs indiana edu tom wetzel twetzel ucs indiana edu writes article 1993apr26 colorado edu jerry bowman , bowmanj csn org writes car talking \? camaro , chevelle , gto , nova , etc bunch places get 68 corvette , n't want put corvette seats original seats shape uncomfortable hell i'm going store find set drive vette catalogs i'm looking generic type seat modify brackets cushion height overall width concern 've looked local without success would like find pair cheapo 's use summer tom call around wrecking yards area , , look seats right floor like vette wide ca n't find let know 'll call around i'm sure yards ship stuff time
thomas tornblom nexus comm se \( thomas tornblom \) subject ultimate awd vehicles reply ecs umass edu 's message 15 apr 93 16 20 49 gmt organization communicator nexus ab engr washington edu ecs umass edu lines 22 article ecs umass edu ecs umass edu writes s4 became s4 called 200 turbo quattro model come wagon , quick wagon rare also mike sylvester umass satisfied audi owner \( 90 100 turbo quattro 4 th audi \) get free magazine latest issue presented new s4 avant \( wagon \) 4 2 litre v8 'd like one \) btw , second quattro third turbo must say even summer , dry roads , give much extra road holding balance hope afford always thomas real life thomas rnblom email thomas tornblom nexus comm se snail mail communicator nexus ab phone 46 18 171814 box 857 fax 46 18 696516 751 08 uppsala , sweden
data cac stratus com \( steve \) subject market sunroofs \( power moonroof big type \) makes best \? keywords sunroof article transfer organization stratus computer inc , marlboro lines 16 nntp posting host data cac stratus com hello , know market sunroofs may left bad taste mouths , really interested finding good brand one exists please let know heard makers good reputation \( failures , leaks , sort thing \) whether first hand experience manufacturer generally regarded industry best \( price object \) maker power sunroofs \? \? steve steve reply cac stratus com stratus computer marlboro
westes netcom com \( estes \) subject wanted '92 toyota previa trac , low miles organization mail group x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 6 i'm looking buy '92 toyota previa trac low miles selling one , want someone buy existing lease , please contact mail estes internet westes netcom com
soda berkeley edu \( ark boon lee \) subject clutch organization university california , berkeley lines 7 nntp posting host soda berkeley edu one experience clutch \( \) car \? i'm considering replace old stock clutch 90 crx si fair price \? martin
boi hp com \( jack wood \) subject chevy gmc 4x4 pickups , opinions \? distribution na organization hewlett packard boise , idaho x newsreader tin version 1 1 4 pl6 lines 41 dick grady \( grady world std com \) wrote considering buying 1993 chevy gmc 4x4 full size pickup extended cab opinions vehicles \? significant problems \? dick grady salem , nh , usa grady world std com many newsgroups , little time ! bought brand new 1992 chevrolet hd 4x4 extended cab last may many , many problems see post describes situation went bbb arbitration , ruled chevrolet must buy back get one , stay away 5 speed manual deep low first gear put three truck far 1 , 500 miles , overdrive either starts rattling loudly way fix chevrolet says noise characteristic transmission also , planning use truck tow , gear ratios tranny suck steep hill , get 55 mph second gear 4 , 000 rpm \( yellow line \) shift third , rpm drop 2 , 500 , begin loose speed point 350 v8 put hd \( 8600 \) trucks motor compared one put light duty ones dropped compression ratio , supposedly engine longevity reasons light duty 350 may pull better truck things gone wrong include ventilation fan \( 3 times far \) , paint \( specs rust embedded paint shipped rail covering \) , suspension parts \( link control arm fell \) company make bad individual car , chevrolet included really bothered way reacted made attempt deal except tell take back dealer attempt fix one time bought brand new ford hd super cab 460 automatic never buy another chevrolet hpdmd48 boi hp com
freenet carleton ca \( steve hui \) subject high mileage audi question organization national capital freenet , ottawa , canada lines 22 question high mileage audi owners interested buying 1989 audi 5500 cdn reason car selling little km \( mi \) car 's owner claims car good condition question reliable audi mileage high \? would worthwhile buy car \? problem areas look \? help would greatly appreciated post responses e mail thanks steve hui
thomas tornblom nexus comm se \( thomas tornblom \) subject v4 v6 v8 v12 vx \? reply ssave ole cdac com 's message wed , 21 apr 1993 19 17 44 gmt organization communicator nexus ab lines 32 article 1993apr21 191744 3072 ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com \( devil reincarnate \) writes curious knowing commericial cars today v engines v4 n't know v6 legend , mr3 \? mr6 \? vw golf passat 2 8l vr6 \( inline v6 ! \) , narrow angle \( 11 deg \? \) , one head audi 80 100 2 6 2 8l v6 v8 n't know audi v8 3 6 4 2l mbs bmws v12 jaguar xjs bmw 750 850 mb 600 please add list thanks , ssave ole cdac com real life thomas rnblom email thomas tornblom nexus comm se snail mail communicator nexus ab phone 46 18 171814 box 857 fax 46 18 696516 751 08 uppsala , sweden
finnegan nrlssc navy mil subject v4 v6 v8 v12 vx \? nntp posting host nntpd invader nrlssc navy mil reply kenneth finnegan organization sverdrup technologies lines 18 article apr22 202724 24131 engr washington edu eliot stalfos engr washington edu \( eliot \) writes subarus use 180 degree vees engines \) eliot would n't make i4 \? would really 4 \( henceforth referred underscore 4 \) \? kenneth finnegan nrlssc navy mil
aas7 po cwru edu \( andrew spencer \) subject impala ss going organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 34 reply aas7 po cwru edu \( andrew spencer \) nntp posting host slc5 ins cwru edu previous article , george howell goucher wb3ffv ampr org \( george howell \) says gm always screwed rest divisions favor corvette current platform exception camaro firebird load crap keep people realizing buy one instead corvette save 10 , 000 like idea impala ss , really wanted impress , would throw big 454 imagine cops taurus police package 3 0 3 8 litres stare taillights gimme break ! know chevy 'd screw like almost great truck big 454 ever seen mufflers thing \? \? 's amazing moves \( n't say 's good idea , i'm quite sure chevy 'd screw way \) drew george howell ooo ppp aaa rrr mm mm p p r r ppp aaaaa rrr p r r ooo p r r ford living american george howell george howell goucher wb3ffv ampr org
buck granite ma30 bull com \( ken buck \) subject questions insurance companies \( esp geico \) organization bull information systems inc distribution usa lines 18 wrat unisql uucp \( wharfie \) writes car recently destroyed hail storm fully expected get jerked around insurance company n't one hail damage state farm opened claim centers evenings weekends , flew additional adjusters dallas experience state farm , think 's important differentiate experience typical accident hail damage clearly fault owner , also tends well publicized media , 's ins co 's benefit respond promptly damage like n't imply anything likelihood future claims \( unless live area gets frequent damaging hail storms \) , 's reason stop covering 's lot different fault accidents theft related claims , may indicative claim patterns
balsamo stargl enet dec com \( antonio l balsamo \( save wails \) \) subject warped brake discs '91 taurus l lines 30 nntp posting host reply balsamo stargl enet dec com \( antonio l balsamo \( save wails \) \) organization digital equipment corporation utrc utc com \( bruce winters \) subject warped brake discs '91 taurus l past years owned 3 mustang gts 91 bird sc problem recall bird brake problem ford dealer replaced rotors pads rotors warp 10k miles problem fit finish problems bird 'll never buy ford rotors '92 taurus gl changed less 500 miles ago guessed , i'm noticing slight left rotor \( mechanic friend mine look said high spot rotor causing problem brand new rotor bought ford dealership ca n't even produce brand new rotor warped \? i'm currently negotiating swap new rotor first american build car i'm overly impressed tony name antonio l balsamo company digital equipment corp shrewsbury , mass work \( 508 \) 841 2039 e mail balsamo stargl enet dec com
pwe slipknot mit edu \( paul w emery \) subject v4 engines organization massachvsetts institvte technology lines 22 nntp posting host slipknot mit edu subject v4 , ford uk used v4 engines ford transit vans brings back memory seventies played band time something like 180 pounds four us bought 1967 tranny cart gear around terrible shape \( \) 's last owner pig farmer spent days cleaning putting partition seating 'til day died everytime turned fan defroster dried pig shit came flying vents ! ! ! back engine remember right v4 thing could haul , could fill equipment 8 people went like bat hell , course pollution controls engine gas leaded higher octane get mechanical fuel pump quit put electric one morris minor worked great ah fond memories pwe slipknot mit edu 'd like tanks paul w emery ron nasty magnet lab cambridge mass u
dsto gov au \( paul \) subject lemon law anyone know law \? organization defence science technology organisation lines 19 nntp posting host dsto gov au \( kevin \) writes father lots problems 2 year old van lemon law \? qualifies \? talk philip took ford court recently , despite much trickery ford 's part , ! well , actually think ford settled court provision shut mouth stopped causing trouble love little guy wins n't philip 's address anymore , philip , call may bring hiding cheers , paul paul phone 61 8 259 avionics technology dsto dsto gov au fax 61 8 259 po box 1500 , south australia , 5108
cunixf cc columbia edu \( stuart alexander ridgway \) subject mr2 seats sale nntp posting host cunixf cc columbia edu reply cunixf cc columbia edu \( stuart alexander ridgway \) organization columbia university lines 31 article 1993apr26 ultb isc rit edu adn6285 ritvax isc rit edu writes article 1993apr26 noao edu , groves noao edu \( lee groves \) writes owner mr2 , several friends , uncomfortable see ad like seats seen sale , often stolen would nice see statement saying came 'll give seller benefit doubt , people aware vast majority mr2 seats market especially stolen original owner seats original poster take serious offence statement thinks thee protest much 1 2 \) please future think make allegations like made allegations , specifically gave seller benefit doubt simply made net aware fact many seats stolen , watch ask questions buying 's good advice follow buying anything third party , net elsewhere hurts touchy , touchy mike alex ridgway
jmh hopper virginia edu \( jeffrey hoffmeister \) subject 1994 mustang organization itc uva community access unix internet project lines 21 article 1993apr22 192652 3032 virginia edu jmm4h virginia edu \( blade runner \) writes got remind ! yes , 's right , somtime fall , ford \( granddaddy cars \) introducing new , mega cool way fast accord drivers mustang 's supposed 100 streamlined , looking similar mach iii concept car ford came around january ca n't wait anyone hear anything recently \? everything 've read correct , ford nothing skinning existing mustang , minor suspension modifications pictures 've seen indicate n't good job new mustang , nothing cycle 20 year old car jeff
blair med uvm edu \( blair robertson \) subject service indicator bmw organization university vermont division emba computer facility x newsreader tin 1 1 pl4 lines 76 dchan cisco com \( derek chan \) writes article 1993apr22 westminster ac uk , jkjec westminster ac uk \( shazad barlas \) writes derek tool available reset service indicator bmws lights come back 2 3 weeks tool fact illegal \( europe atleast \) often case unsuspecting buy used bmw weeks later , lights come ! , know tool anyone else \? shaz , hmm service indicators works way 5 green , 1 yellow , 1 red indicators initially green indicators minutes start car computer actually sense drive car time goes green indicators start go one one yellow indicator turn red indicator go get service time green indicators service mechanic \( \) reset service indicators computer starts counting expect tool \( procedure \) reset green lights come yellow red lights go wonder people oil change themself without knowing reset indicator 's first european car changing oil 15 , 000 miles surprise 's big plus \) wonder could happen since oil lose lubrication ability time , thought 's oil vehicle determines often change oil bmw owner net \? response welcomed ps initial question service indicator bmw derek perfectly legal tool available reset bimmer service lights cost 45 mailorder , buying one far outweighs possible consequences destroying electronics try di wonder people oil change without knowing reset important \? reason stop annoyance red light staring forget 'in european cars need change oil every crap anyone serious keeping engine good shape , extending life , change every 3000 , \( inc filter \) n't wait lights come servicing car bought bmw 6 months ago , 3 green lights changed oil every 3000 , completly flushed brake , changed filters \( oil , air fuel , changed transmission drive oils done almost things req service 1 service 2 nearly 6000 miles , still 2 green lights winter burlington \( snowing today ! ! \) bad good luck ! blair blair e robertson new vermont university vermont posting ideas medical research smooth muscle ion channel group vermont 2500 email blair med uvm edu telephone \( 802 \) 656
galaxy nsc com \( james lu \) subject good car wash wax \? nntp posting host nsc com organization national semiconductor , santa clara distribution na lines 15 question 's experience car wash wax \? liquid type wax bottles pour water , car , hose , dry cloth many people used easy work gives visual results paste type wax , last long \? negative effects car paint \? forward reply directly email id \? thanks james
mozart columbiasc ncr com \( mark w rice \) subject review 1989 ford taurus sho nntp posting host mozart columbiasc ncr com organization ncr corp , columbia sc lines 17 article 74 uupcb cutting hou tx us david bonds cutting hou tx us \( david bonds \) writes gk occasionally , trouble shifting reverse shifter gk refuses enter gate , often grind synchros trying gk get gear 'll watching carefully next couple gk months enter 1st , wait 2 3 seconds go reverse use synchros , 'll never \( least n't \) ground em fit using technique like manual says put 3rd first , quickly go reverse waiting mark mark rice 803 791 mark rice columbiasc ncr com views
aspen wpi edu \( robert walker \) subject broncos organization worcester polytechnic institute lines 34 distribution world nntp posting host aspen wpi edu anybody information second generation broncos \? \( i'm talking bronco ii 's , i'm referring broncos began production 1978 based f 150 chassis believe \) ahh broncos well personally , '78 blue book hair 3 grand bought 2500 bought new tires 650 front end rebuild 350 , carb rebuild 130 unthinkable blew engine \( bronco specific , engine 168 , 000 \) 2400 bucks , nice condition , well new seats bird , radio , 2 amps , speakers , alarm , well radio amps free bought speakers used 40 bucks , speakers took old jeep \( sell jeep bronco might ask , \) lovely , solid front rear , ford 9 dana 44 front watch rear axel wrap , busted u bolts , added traction shocks n't problem since also bottom doors tend rot , bottom likes rust right new ones might budget post 80 broncos front end little stamped folded steel radius arms 78 79 nice big cast iron longer radius arms \( ie wheel travel \) rust doors dings sheet metal n't know removeable tops discontinued fun ordered full top 400 mine \( credit card \) n't ever break window double privacy glass cap 400 bucks replace bronco also pretty good , n't suspension , yet , crossed 3 foot deep water problems , handles rocks like charm one problem wide sometimes ca n't follow cj toyota , two rocks trees , grandmother hard time getting bob
mwalker chama eece unm edu \( mark walker \) subject rfi art clutchless shifting organization university new mexico , albuquerque lines 13 distribution world nntp posting host warlock eece unm edu article 1993apr22 magnus acs ohio state edu , magnus acs ohio state edu \( scott j \) writes smooth silk amazing shifting demonstration 've ever seen ! said still n't know anyone would want shift synchronized tranny without clutch \? \? ego trip mark walker old man always said mwalker chama eece unm edu much right ! 505 277 \( home 899 \) guess applies preferences albuquerque , nm performance cars
mwalker chama eece unm edu \( mark walker \) subject rfi art clutchless shifting organization university new mexico , albuquerque lines 14 distribution world nntp posting host warlock eece unm edu article 93112 psuvm psu edu , psuvm psu edu writes , showed foot cam telemetry rusty wallace shifting last year never touched clutch except slightly shifting 700 hp pretty powerful doubt trans uses standard several mechanisms coupling gear transmission output shaft , fine racing unsuitable street use mark walker old man always said mwalker chama eece unm edu much right ! 505 277 \( home 899 \) guess applies preferences albuquerque , nm performance cars
smorris sumax seattleu edu \( steven morris \) subject lexus infiniti organization addiction studies program , seattle university lines 20 nntp posting host sumax seattleu edu article andrew cmu edu joseph mazz andrew cmu edu writes btw , saw new q45 tv weekend big changes grille added \( looks nice , ! \) , wood interior otherwise , looked largely unchanged changed lights slope hood , along new grille otherwise , unchanged interestingly , lack wood lack grille big design statement tried defy conventional wisdom carve niche unfortunately , sales half lexus hence , join pack still wonder much problem n't slow start initial ad campaign personally , like q without grille steve morris , internet smorris sumax seattleu edu addiction studies pgm uucp uw beaver , uunet ! ! ! sumax ! smorris seattle university phone \( 206 \) 296 \( dept \) 296 \( direct \) seattle , wa
pbhandar tsegw tse com \( parminder bhandari \) subject info audi 90 \( used \) organization toronto stock exchange distribution rec lines 10 thinking buying used audi 90 auto cars look good audi good rep cars europe \( i'm \) wondering anything cars know parms
pbhandar tsegw tse com \( parminder bhandari \) subject question integra auto box organization toronto stock exchange distribution rec lines 17 i'm new group may discussed already , case apologies , '92 integra auto box according manual car lock torque converter , something similar , work \? \( excuse ignorance \) anybody know \? parms \( sig yet \)
pbhandar tsegw tse com \( parminder bhandari \) subject new integra '94 \? organization toronto stock exchange distribution rec lines 10 've heard rumours new integra released '94 anybody info \? local sales people know much throw parms \( still sig \)
mhembruc tsegw tse com \( mattias hembruch \) subject driver 's seat best cars year organization toronto stock exchange lines 20 tomh metrics com \( tom haapanen \) writes golf also 's \( automobile association canada \) 1993 car year award unless mistaken \( screwed borrowed vcr got first 2 minutes \) , corrado slc awarded 's sports \( sporty \? \) car year mattias tom haapanen tomh metrics com software metrics inc waterloo , ont stick index fingers corners mouth pull 's corrado makes feel car , january '93 mattias hembruch views necessarily reflect tse e mail mhembruc tse com
aas7 po cwru edu \( andrew spencer \) subject rfi art clutchless shifting organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 25 reply aas7 po cwru edu \( andrew spencer \) nntp posting host slc5 ins cwru edu previous article , lusky ccwf cc utexas edu \( jonathan r lusky \) says article 93112 psuvm psu edu psuvm psu edu writes i'm familiar trannies used winston cup , trans cars 've played transmissions racing variety , dog clutches instead transmission dog clutches , gears always engaged moving dog clutches engages gears shafts motorcycle transmissions way shifting without clutch transmission cause transmission damage , question long grenade something \( trans 87 pulsar se , 3 5k miles , weak tranny first place \) curiosity , dog clutch different synchro transmission described sounds fact , little 've studied trannies , instructor referred synchros dogs said synonymous gears always meshed synchronized gearbox , slip synchro gears back forth shifting least , taught explain , por favour \? thanx drew ps email 's fine inappropriate , i'm n't know diff
aas7 po cwru edu \( andrew spencer \) subject v4 v6 v8 v12 vx \? organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 18 reply aas7 po cwru edu \( andrew spencer \) nntp posting host slc5 ins cwru edu previous article , finnegan nrlssc navy mil \( \) says article apr22 202724 24131 engr washington edu eliot stalfos engr washington edu \( eliot \) writes subarus use 180 degree vees engines \) eliot would n't make i4 \? would really 4 \( henceforth referred underscore 4 \) \? think technicaly known 180 degree vee configuration \( could wrong 've seen referred \) drew
goyal utdallas edu \( mohit k goyal \) subject radar detector buy \? nntp posting host apache utdallas edu organization univ texas dallas lines 8 entered market radar detector looking advice recommendations warnings etc anyone group email preferred thanks
gsusgi2 gsu edu \( k \) subject viper car alarms organization georgia state university lines 26 cs uiuc edu \( ronald e garnett \) writes ron viper also sells fancy field disturbance sensor ron supposedly detects people car ron viper system tuned like neighbor 's would n't get sleep damn thing waking every one neighborhood used try ignore alarm , made pact bombard house night time visits phone calls ever awakened thunder storm passed next county stray dog looked car car alarms serious pain ass ! ks p real men n't car radios since exhaust loud hear anyway grin ! k anthropology georgia state university gsu edu
rtsg mot com \( jay \) subject gts headlight covers nntp posting host organization motorola inc , cellular infrastructure group distribution usa lines 15 90 eagle talon wanted pair gts headlight covers actually , turning signal covers since year pop lights went auto shop bought tail light 45 , turning signal covers stock asked much would told would cost another 40 thought bit high two small pieces plastic anyone find cheaper pair even used one \? jay marble rtsg mot com motorola , inc arlington heights , il
aas7 po cwru edu \( andrew spencer \) subject v4 v6 v8 v12 vx \? organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 40 reply aas7 po cwru edu \( andrew spencer \) nntp posting host slc5 ins cwru edu previous article , thomas tornblom nexus comm se \( thomas tornblom \) says article 1993apr21 191744 3072 ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com \( devil reincarnate \) writes curious knowing commericial cars today v engines v4 n't know v6 legend , mr3 \? mr6 \? vw golf passat 2 8l vr6 \( inline v6 ! \) , narrow angle \( 11 deg \? \) , one head 15 audi 80 100 2 6 2 8l v6 v8 n't know audi v8 3 6 4 2l mbs bmws v12 jaguar xjs bmw 750 850 mb 600 please add list thanks , ssave ole cdac com real life thomas rnblom email thomas tornblom nexus comm se snail mail communicator nexus ab phone 46 18 171814 box 857 fax 46 18 696516 751 08 uppsala , sweden drew
jimb hpindda cup hp com \( james bruder \) subject manual advice needed organization hp information networks , cupertino , ca lines 8 n't think transmission fluid change solve problem unless extremely cold climate using heavy weight fluid follow manufacturer 's recommended oil weight cars \( standard transmissions 4 5 speeds \) recommend changing transmission fluid 30 , 000 miles normal driving conditions 've gone 100 , 000 without changing transmission oil \( replace transmission bearings ! \) older cars used 85 weight oil whereas 92 honda uses 10 30 motor oil \( maybe 30 weight \)
jimb hpindda cup hp com \( james bruder \) subject changing brake fluid necessary organization hp information networks , cupertino , ca lines 10 agree jeff 's reply 've never changed brake fluid except brake job , usually around 80 , 000 miles \( alot freeway driving \) however , start preventative maintenance new car also , brake system flushing agents used problem agent left system , cause problems , 's recommended use unless 100 certain remove flushing agent info , quoted price labor 29 95 fluid 9 95 flushing brake system conjunction break job n't know without brake job f bay area
jimb hpindda cup hp com \( james bruder \) subject vibration brakes applied organization hp information networks , cupertino , ca lines 7 hi javier , \( things corp , old ground c level \? \) vibration applying brakes caused , disc brakes least , warped rotors brakes applied , results pressure rotor turning rotors brake shop remedy problem long enough rotor width left turning \( e within spec \) could possible front end suspension problem brake shop able confirm warped rotors visual inspection free
wen king cs caltech edu \( wen king su \) subject mercury villager minivan good buy \? organization california institute technology lines 9 nntp posting host neptune cs caltech edu keywords mercury , villager , minivan , van , cars , article sumax seattleu edu smorris sumax seattleu edu \( steven morris \) writes villager quest seem like best voyager copies come along since mazda mpv nissan maxima engine paired maxima 4 speed auto trans excellent drive train , rest vehicle seems well engineered price controversial hmm last time checked , villager quest maxima engine , much powered weight
freud arc nasa gov \( chuck fry \) subject v4 engines nntp posting host freud arc nasa gov organization technologies , code , nasa ames , moffett field , ca lines 21 article 1993apr23 mit edu singer mit edu \( matthew r singer \) writes n't saab v4 \? recall someone telling something like 1 2 ford 289 \( correct spelling \) , 95 wagon 96 sedan used 1500 cc 1700 cc v 4 ford germany particular motor 60 degree vee angle , balance shaft exhaust ports motor later stretched v 6 commonly seen capri v 4 could make pretty reasonable power size saab , made much torque transmission , designed 3 cylinder 2 stroke chuck fry , former iii owner chuck fry freud arc nasa gov space rent alone bear responsibility claptrap
kmac cisco com \( karl elvis macrae \) subject ford explorer question , suv review organization tattooed love boys lines 60 distribution world nntp posting host glare cisco com ok , ongoing search sport utility , 's latest toyota 4runner small small small small interior vehical impossible large person bad would winner otherwise nissan pathfinder low ceiling head hit roof , fun bumps , \? also cheap looking interior isuzu trooper class act really , really nice vehical comfortable , handled ok really cool grab handles everywhere 's huge , engine bit small 's bulk also manual shift weird kind awkward 'd buy 3k cheaper 10 shorter size price , kept trying park san francisco thanks chevy blazer cheap looking small small toyota nissan , still small ford explorer sports car , 's certainly serious 's big enough comfortable without huge heavy trooper 's engine plenty power everyday driving , though would nice bit automatic tranny pretty nice head shoulders '90 mazda mpv steering tight 'd like , 's acceptable two door easy enter back seats \( easier get , fact , driver 's seat 4runner ! \) 10 shorter easier availability manual tranny , \( yes , i'm manual shift , admit \) 's one i'm thinking buying , said , anyone one hates \? anyone major problems \? heard horror stories \? also , reason buy ford mazda navajo , essentially vehical \? thanks karl karl elvis macrae software release support cisco systems kmac cisco com batman cisco com 415 688 dod 1999 fj1200 shovels rakes implements destruction arlo guthrie
cm cci632 cci com \( carl mercer \) subject corvette car cover sale keywords 1992 , tan , \( repost \) distribution usa organization northern telecom , inc network application systems lines 11 i'm sure made 'll try 's \( sp \? \) corvette car cover sale cover canvas outside felt inside weather proof great condition i'm asking 95 00 'll pay shipping \( originally 175 00 october 1992 \) carl mercer cm cci com \( 716 \) 359 evening \( 716 \) 654 day
dcl cso uiuc edu \( paul park \) subject new integra '94 \? distribution rec organization university illinois urbana lines 20 article tsegw tse com pbhandar tsegw tse com \( parminder bhandari \) writes 've heard rumours new integra released '94 anybody info \? local sales people know much throw parms \( still sig \) go rumors dont quote new integra supposedly wedge shaped 175 hp wheel drive top models variant called zx r comes later \( \? \) think gets unveiled end summer nothing airbag mentioned , im sure 'll one along nice hefty increase sticker \? \? \?
dcd se houston geoquest slb com \( dan day \) subject car buying story , christ , another dealer service scam nntp posting host mudd se houston geoquest slb com organization geoquest system , inc houston distribution usa lines 27 article 1993apr16 newsgate sps mot com rapw20 email sps mot com writes go find invoice prices car , add reasonable profit dealer \( 200 300 \? \? \) , offer price stick whoa ! watch terminology dealer invoice dealer cost 'll hear lots ads screaming two dollars dealer invoice ! ! ! sounds like real deal , huh \? know dealer invoice \( also called factory invoice \) \? 's piece paper numbers factory sends dealer numbers signify \? absolutely nothing 's marketing gimmick salesman wave face impress note nowhere invoice claim real price car , ads mention dealer invoice end fast , low voice saying something like invoice may reflect actual dealer cost actually , guarantee reflect actual dealer cost also , reasonable profit dealer usually around three percent adjust according dealer cost car options want haggle like hell salesman cost dealer prep protection package \( e paint fabric \) 're , ask salesman toss thing two n't cost cash wife got twin turbo mitsubishi bought mitsubishi mini van
newman cps msu edu \( timothy newman \) subject ford probe , import car year organization department computer science , michigan state university lines 13 distribution usa nntp posting host howell cps msu edu originator newman howell cps msu edu okay , okay , know ford probe made us , fact 's made michigan , mazda plant question parts american japanese sources \? told us assembly plants japanese import almost parts used vehicles information anyone appreciated ! tim newman newman cps msu edu
behanna syl nj nec com \( chris behanna \) subject best radar detector keywords organization nec systems laboratory , inc lines 19 article 1993apr26 westminster ac uk jkjec westminster ac uk \( shazad barlas \) writes hi photo speed traps , wondering anyone knows radar detectors capable detecting photo cameras \? , devices \? yup radar detectors detect ka band pick photo radar 's reflected poor ahead got nailed btw , many photo radar installations southern u became targets high powered rifles , lenses cow flop , etc i'm advocating destruction public property , get picture later , chris behanna dod 114 1983 h fxwg wide glide jubilee 's red lady behanna syl nj nec com 1975 cb360t baby bike disclaimer would nec 1991 zx 11 needs name agree anyway \? raised pack wild corn dogs
email mot com \( philip bush \) subject plug wires really need replacement \? organization motorola , inc , schaumburg , il , usa distribution na nntp posting host 145 1 148 5 lines 32 article umd edu , cs umd edu \( vadim \) wrote hi , netters went tune lube routine maintenance said need change plug wires original ones driven 70 k miles strong suspicion wanted make money wires visible defects repair manual n't recommend scheduled maintenance plain vanilla rip \? backing behind suggestion replace wires \? ford taurus 86 vadim problem '65 mustang , simply changing spark plug wires fixed philip bush national champion motorola , inc , schaumburg , il sho convention show email email mot com 3rd place concours phone \( 708 \) 576 judged
johnn eskimo com \( john navitsky \) subject ford probe opinions \? \( centered around gt \) organization eskimo north \( 206 \) 367 3837 seattle , wa lines 132 article heiser acs2 bu edu \( bill heiser \) writes article chuck eos ncsu edu \( chuck kesler \) writes jeremy g mereness zonker cmu edu says anyone offer opinions ford probe ala long run , repair records , reliability , mileage , etc \? 've found mine \( '93 probe gt \) quite well window problem deleted , trimmed probe looked twice local dealer \( purchased car \) first time , made problem worse second time , advising service bulletin mentioned ford probe mailing list \( said n't know bulletin \) , adjusted window made much better however makes noise rough roads , still open close window wet weather \( anyone elses 's \? \) 've air leakage problems reported get bill describes live seattle wet weather may factor ford gives 1 key car c'mon ford , spend extra pennies ! recall correctly got two keys horn buttons behind air bag spokes center \( personal preference \) 've got position fingers perfectly make beep buttons terrible true i'm wondering may safety concern ie , people pound place airbag lives speaking horn , surprised find probe comes one nice sounding horns instead japanese sounding kind previous probes japanese horns opinion transmission \( 5 speed must \) always 5 speed guy almost every car 've ever owned 5 speed got good deal car 2500 miles , \( knowingly \) overlooked fact automatic pretty high tech automatic fully controlled 4 speed 5 speed much fun opted automatic number reasons 's still fun , ways practical shake rattle noises going bumps potholes \( still ! \) ditto shakes rattles main gripe 've gotten fix worst , fear rather harsh ride , car virtual rattles gets older would suspect may true tires 225 goodyear eagles \( 70 left hoping 30k \) well sticks road like glue , even rough surface yes ! interior , nice pleasing eye , ergonomically sound definitely ford mazda nice job one car much expensive actually look feel ditto yes , car 's stiff suspension n't everyone personally like , find little harsh otherwise like car , 'd strongly suggest looking mx 6 agree check n't mind would say much stiffer might problem \( '93 r1 rx 7 suspension \? ! \) well would n't encourage passenger carrying probe unless person front seat likes sit knees dash mentioned consumer reports write ups , consider back seat parcel shelf though \( , 'd bought car ! \( 's definitely family car \) \) true 've heard exhaust system trouble , mine works fine n't heard one know early probes \( '89 maybe '90 \) problems prematurely mufflers \( 've problem read \( least assume one one read \) case happened weld muffler pipe feeding \( ok , i'm mechanic \) broke case dealer welded , ordered replacement parts put got suspect sort 1 \) design flaw , 2 \) production flaw case earlier model would expect worked newer ones case warrantee repair \( get keys back ! \) 've heard , sounds like ford mazda qc problems probe \( probably mx 6 \) first went production , think problems mostly corrected point 's almost always expected completely new car like , though agree seem qc seriously feel car design sound , expect well second seems things slipped car seems sound perfection \( \) get awful lot money bill heiser heiser acs bu edu , heiser world std com boston university , boston btw , bill probe mailing list might want subscribe interested detail try request ford probe world std com \( get right \? never remember request goes front back \) , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , , ` , , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , eskimo com , ` , ` , ` , , ` , right today , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` ,
sam andrew cmu edu subject review 1989 ford taurus sho organization freshman , h ss general , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 28 nntp posting host po4 andrew cmu edu reply 1993apr26 204845 columbiasc ncr com excerpts rec autos 26 apr 93 review 1989 ford mark w rice mozart article 74 uupcb cutting hou tx us david bonds cutting hou tx us \( id bonds \) writes gk occasionally , trouble shifting reverse shifter gk refuses enter gate , often grind synchros trying gk get gear 'll watching carefully next couple gk months enter 1st , wait 2 3 seconds go reverse use synchros , 'll never \( least n't \) ground em fit using technique like manual says put 3rd first , quickly go reverse waiting one way , works manual trans cars 've driven , personal favorite \( suggestions great , try one , \) pushing shifter gently towards reverse , let clutch slowly \( right friction point \) shifter pulled position right , car wo n't jump backward , gears grind glide back sam
cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu \( oriolefan uiuc \) subject viper car alarms organization university illinois urbana lines 48 batman bmd trw com writes article cs uiuc edu , cs uiuc edu \( ronald e garnett \) writes hello auto enthusiasts ! stuff deleted viper also sells fancy field disturbance sensor supposedly detects people car primarily convertibles convertible looked feature detail alpine actually makes better radar unit want get one zones shut independently one side car pedestrian traffic something else would trigger alarm , shuts zone , rather , pulls tighter n't see real benefit unless convertible leave top avoid voice alarm added radar package talks people walk saw one installed lotus esprit kids would taunt seeing close could get get back owner finally disabled , defeats purpose mind stuff deleted ron garnett stuff deleted merrill neighbor runs viper \( r \) installs saturns sold area \( anne county , md \) sc viper voice alarm installed alarm everything , turn car , radio , heater , roll windows , unlock doors alarm goes frequently hot days person walks gets sensitive 5 feet heat n't bad siren alarms , n't continue wail , says protected viper , please stand back ! shuts \( mainly person walks away ! ! ! \) chintan amin university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig construction hard hat area
david ganglion ann arbor mi us \( david hwang \) subject best radar detector valentine 1 \? organization j services lines 43 article 1993apr21 sequent com troy sequent com \( troy wecker \) writes let explain feel bogey counter feature gimmick radar waves bounce objects especially metal radar speed measurement works high frequency microwave \( x band approx 10 ghz k approx 24 ghz \) sent reflected back antenna automobile objects object moving doppler shift \( 34 hz per mph x band \) occurs , measured converted miles per hour waves bounce place reflect many times go many directions understand valentine 1 tell microwaves coming front , rear two antennas coming interpreted side bogey bogey counts determined sources relative strength one another even reflections source i'm certainly engineer really scientific basis make argument , n't answer question \? reflected signal shifted act reflected \? , would n't easy detector discriminate reflections direct sources \? problem since microwaves reflect , unit tell source reflection \? take valentine 1 drive local grocery store uses x band radar door opener tell small black box door pointed 45 degree angle detector going gets near valentine 1 count 7 8 directions front , rear sides \( n't say side \) count changes cars drive reflections change 7 8 sources \? store go drive around standard detector find one source door opener front door troy wecker troy sequent com sequent computer systems beaverton , david w hwang , david ganglion ann arbor mi us
david ganglion ann arbor mi us \( david hwang \) subject best radar detector valentine 1 \? organization j services lines 68 article 1993apr22 convex com tobias convex com \( allen tobias \) writes article 1993apr21 sequent com troy sequent com \( troy wecker \) writes valentine 1 hand tuned maximum performance radar bands coverage , course , adds labor cost turn cost unit live backyard folks make stalker radar system valentine 1 saved many , many , many times stealth revenue enhancement traps local area major brand detectors , , imho , nothing else even comes close v1 ! n't work valentine , satisfied user unit ! really want nitty gritty details , call nice folks valentine research happy explain perspective radar detection analysis methods calls free 1 800 331 seems bands available police radar month recently purchased \( within last 8 months \) bel perfect detector means , job fairly well , however , pick car magazine airport read super ka wideband superset ka wideband latest generation detectors touted covering bel new series detectors cover usual bands \( x , k , ka photo , ka wideband \) well new super ka wideband comes point diminishing returns chasing increased pc computing power faster faster cpus \( average home consumer , least \) , seems concern radar detectors make sense upgrade 8 months purchasing new detector \? valentine upgrading equipment \? , might worth upgrade valentine market valentine purchased bel 3 4 month waiting time much since inadequate protection passport life much simpler x k band escort best equipment market need continuously shop new detector hope flood new radar bands ceases new super wideband business 0 0 \( \) allen tobias technical email \( \) \( \) convex computer corp marketing tobias convex com \( \) \( \) 3000 parkway \( \) \( \) richardson , tx \( \) one cares much know know much care ! david w hwang , david ganglion ann arbor mi us
homi csd4 csd uwm edu \( sammy \) subject car \? organization computing services division , university wisconsin milwaukee lines 17 distribution usa nntp posting host 129 89 7 4 originator homi csd4 csd uwm edu hello anyone done work best brands \? applications heard water based brand move around , till 's right , let dry like also would consider professionally done , much around wisconsin area , decent job , fairly cheap \( college kid \) thanks info ps maximum legal tint limit homi csd4 csd uwm edu
adam microware com \( adam goldberg \) subject choice gauges nntp posting host ren organization microware systems corp , des moines , iowa distribution usa lines 25 article vcd hp com dmunroe vcd hp com \( dave gauge \) writes free reign design instrument cluster , gauges would choose beyond basic set \? oil pressure , oil temperature coolant temperature manifold vacuum , voltmeter fuel pressure maybe \( problematic , since either need electronic sensor gauge pair mount damn thing outside car \) addition , 'd nice big red idiot light connected oil pressure , oil temp , coolant temp , voltmeter heaps , 's hard look time case oil pressure , example , want know right away oil pump goes bad , unlike coolant temperature , minute two 0 oil pressure would bad thing \( tm \) adam adam g microware com , ! uunet ! ! construed way official unofficial statements microware , microware employees
callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu \( james p callison \) subject super mega automobile sighting \( \) ! ! ! ! ! exotics together ! nntp posting host uokmax ecn uoknor edu organization engineering computer network , university oklahoma , norman , ok , usa lines 60 article kjb constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu \( james p callison \) writes article phantom gatech edu grahamt phantom gatech edu \( graham e thomas \) writes jmm4h virginia edu \( blade runner \) writes sighting fine beast remember , mustang forever true king road especially '68 shelby american gt \( king road , named steal gm 's planned camaro king road 's thunder \) maybe mustang forever king road , gt 40 n't road legal think gt 40 actually street legal , although particular question moot \( see price figures \) gt 40s street legal , n't car right hand drive \( n't like \? \) much gt 40 go \? many made \? found shelby american guide grand total 126 gt 40s built gt 40 coupes 55 gt 40 road cars 31 gt 40 mk ii 13 gt 40 mk iiis 7 gt 40 5 3 gt 40 mk ivs 12 total 126 additional mk iiis 6 12 twelve cars prototypes 48 racing coupes 31 road coupes eight mk ii coupes 4 mk iiis 3 mk iiis breakdowns follow list \( eg , 12 mk ivs \) breakdown given mk iiis prices \( bought \) around 1 million mark , last heard , projection 3 5 million \( thereabouts \) 2000 second penny \) shelby world manufacturer 's cup '65 also year retired shelby american racing team \( favor ford gt program next year \) victory broke 13 \( \? \) year winning streak well , 's lotsa info could spout , 'll refrain much information comes hot rod magazine 's shelby american cobra mustang guide , info shelby american fords could ever want know james james p callison microcomputer coordinator , u oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i'm engineer , play one work forecast calls thunder '89 bird sc 's hell thing , killing man take away 's ever gonna munny , unforgiven
boyle cactus org \( craig boyle \) subject new integra '94 \? organization capital area central texas unix society , austin , tx distribution rec lines 27 article tsegw tse com pbhandar tsegw tse com \( parminder bhandari \) writes 've heard rumours new integra released '94 well , set watch honda releasing new models every 4 years upgrade half way cars life local acura dealership tells new integra soon , e may june hard find specific details integra deleted rest world seen canada australia well u discontinued first generation europe normally see new japanese models appear europe japan first extrapolate c reported engine would think craig anybody info \? local sales people know much throw parms \( still sig \)
callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu \( james p callison \) subject 1994 mustang nntp posting host uokmax ecn uoknor edu organization engineering computer network , university oklahoma , norman , ok , usa lines 48 article mentor cc purdue edu marshatt feserve cc purdue edu \( zauberer \) writes disclamer flame anger easily please go petebre elof iit edu \( peterson \) writes next mustang ford 's highest profile car attracts way attention camaro firebird 's heritage embedded general public n't lie believe ford forfeit fyi already oh , really \? bad current mustang ca n't even compete new camaro without using active imagination '93 mustang cobra check right cars compare '93 camaro , think 20 , 000 car perform exotics swearing look stats n't lie comparable cars 's class , price , maybe '93 mustang cobra good job lower price , 's taste 's ahead 30th anniversary original pony car unless ford gets , romeo n't seriously believe designed mark viii , \? hey , imagine potential modified lt 1 ! ! ! ! ! ! ! folks years surpass levels performance achieved late '60 's , thats scary think ! corvettes almost performance levels '65 cobra ! wow ! years , might performance levels '66 ford gt 40 wow , man , think \) james james p callison microcomputer coordinator , u oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i'm engineer , play one work forecast calls thunder '89 bird sc 's hell thing , killing man take away 's ever gonna munny , unforgiven
amh2 ns1 cc lehigh edu \( alois himsl \) subject bmw 528i organization lehigh university lines 41 article 1993apr25 ultb isc rit edu , adn6285 ritvax isc rit edu writes looked bimmer yesterday 's '81 , , according owner \( odometer stopped working \) well , sounds good , body ok , wants 3000 liked car , despite 's auto tranny , wife primary driver one , wants auto radio work untill car warms honk horn \( ! \) c seems leak sunroof sticky , operational odometer work , mentioned idle bit , going wipers slow 's teh gripes owner says changed radiator , alternator , rotors calipers , exhaust biggest problem , owner sob , telling strange stories hate would never buy like , except , often see descent 528i amount money also said , although could bring , would n't let check car taking garage suspicious knows milage , let know check , given 's practically rust know article 528i r years back , anybody remembers issue \? mike buy ! things mentioned give headaches later also sounds like car needs lot work probably know bmw 's cheap fix either owner sounds like shady character trying take advantage someone sure 3000 sounds good calculate much repairs sounds like would sink least 1000 get everything fixed also never trust anyone far mileage concerned knows many miles driven sure people tell bmw 's hold consider car subject wear tear know could 200 , 000 miles thing remember n't last 528i around either wait keep shopping around 5000 6000 probably find one better , needs less repair , legitimate mileage unlike one considering take guy taken couple times good luck al himsl
callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu \( james p callison \) subject 1994 mustang nntp posting host uokmax ecn uoknor edu organization engineering computer network , university oklahoma , norman , ok , usa lines 57 article cybernet cse fau edu vlasis cybernet cse fau edu \( vlasis theodore \) writes put v 8 twin garret 4s yugo get 7 qm thats useless still yugo loose race track , street yugo go 1 7 7 seconds lose street 's damn quick might wrapped around telephone pole end quarter mile , alone detroit beings compared ultra long throw stick shifts 5 0 93 mr2 turbo 93 rx7 \( buy 6 mos \) \? could replace stock shifter hurst short throw shifter \( available ford \) , number market products boost performance mustang camaro '93 rx 7 , , verily , mr 2 \? detroit aftermarket , build mustang camaro superior either car mention less sticker price either differential rx7 compared differential 5 0 sounds every turn \? well , gee works , n't break transmits power drive wheels , 's essentially zero maintenance 's aftermarket parts ford chevy rear ends , way 5 0 camaro drums rear breaks hello , 90 's \? well , '93 mustang cobra \( , reports , uses running gear '94 mustang \) 4 wheel disks ca n't speak new camaro , think , also , stop think markets mustang , always , mass market sporty car \( 's pony car class came \) performance model 's box running gear also factored design mustang day lee conceived baby designed wide market car sporty , yet accessible room performance tweaking cars listed designed specific market niche , fit well mustang , least , well multiple markets ca n't speak camaro james james p callison microcomputer coordinator , u oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i'm engineer , play one work forecast calls thunder '89 bird sc 's hell thing , killing man take away 's ever gonna munny , unforgiven
alaska edu subject last v 8 interceptors \( mad max \) lines 11 nntp posting host alaska edu organization university alaska tony , believe , first , max 's car austrailian built car n't think chopped u unit may called kangaroo something similar sure , recall reading austrailian cars used ford v 8 engines ford v 8 interceptor , think , 428 c cop car motor whatever case small car screaming big block ford 428 would probably smoke tires miles kilometers hope someone elaborate subject smoke 'em hard , smoke 'em fast later , david '68 lincoln continental
scott skidmore edu \( lost \) subject car ! \? organization skidmore college , saratoga springs ny lines 8 never factory v8 considering production turbo \( twin turbo , forget \) version standard v6 produced , got ! jonathan scott skidmore edu
boyle cactus org \( craig boyle \) subject 1994 mustang organization capital area central texas unix society , austin , tx lines 27 article constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu \( james p callison \) writes article mentor cc purdue edu marshatt feserve cc purdue edu \( zauberer \) writes disclamer flame anger easily please go petebre elof iit edu \( peterson \) writes next mustang ford 's highest profile car attracts way attention camaro firebird 's heritage embedded general public n't lie believe ford forfeit fyi already oh , really \? bad current mustang ca n't even compete new camaro without using active imagination '93 mustang cobra check think 93 mustang cobra match performance new z28 \? \? interesting belief ! craig \( neither owns , wants gm ford product \) craig
klf druwa att com \( franklinkl \) subject v4 v6 v8 v12 vx \? summary beamer \? lines 33 article 1993apr24 150653 8115 magnus acs ohio state edu , bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu \( brian j queiser \) writes cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu \( oriolefan uiuc \) writes aas7 po cwru edu \( andrew spencer \) writes think technicaly known 180 degree vee configuration \( could wrong 've seen referred \) flat engine \? \? \? flat 180 deg v opposed usually , also equals boxer , however , think term traditionally reserved 8 's 12 's \( firing order matters \) talked r many months back ca n't remember consensus examples ferrari 's 512tr flat 12 boxer porsche 's 911 flat 6 subaru 's impreza flat 4 regards , inject non automotive note thread , bmw opposed twin used motorcycles long time always known boxer ken franklin say 's heaven people wait ama say 's better say ai n't gwrra 'd rather laugh sinners cry saints dod 0126 sinners lots fun , y'know good die young
crh regent e technik tu muenchen dbp de \( christian huebner \) subject last v 8 interceptors \( mad max \) organization technical university munich , germany lines 11 alaska edu writes tony , believe , first , max 's car austrailian built car n't think chopped u unit last v8 mad max based holden \( australia \) holden linked gm \( vauxhall gb \) 're quite unlikely use ford parts chris crh regent e technik tu muenchen de
klf druwa att com \( franklinkl \) subject v4 v6 v8 v12 vx \? summary ferrari true boxer \? lines 24 article engr washington edu , eliot lanmola engr washington edu \( eliot \) writes article 1993apr24 150653 8115 magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu \( brian j queiser \) writes examples ferrari 's 512tr flat 12 boxer porsche 's 911 flat 6 subaru 's impreza flat 4 think got way round ferrari flat 12 180 degree v12 true boxer , subaru porsche true boxers n't know vw bug though , suspect also true boxer eliot serious \? auto lot bringing term boxer popular forefront ferrari 512 boxer 5 liter , opposed 12 cylinder engine ken franklin say 's heaven people wait ama say 's better say ai n't gwrra 'd rather laugh sinners cry saints dod 0126 sinners lots fun , y'know good die young
organization esoc european space operations centre esoc bitnet subject nissan nomenclature \( manual shift bigots wanted \) oasys dt navy mil 1993apr26 westminster ac uk lines 11 european version called 200 sx 1 8 liter engine turbo power us version \( 169 hp \) goes 0 100 km h 7 5 sec top speed 225 km h \( 140 miles h \) purchased one \( new \) looking repair book could find one france germany anybody knows find one \? one uk \? use look us 240 sx different motor pleased car problem like good technical documentation car regards
minyos xx rmit oz au \( evans \) subject v4 v6 v8 v12 vx \? organization royal melbourne institute technology lines 20 nntp posting host minyos xx rmit oz au ssave ole cdac com \( devil reincarnate \) writes curious knowing commericial cars today v engines v4 n't know v6 legend , mr3 \? mr6 \? v8 n't know v12 jaguar xjs please add list thanks , ssave ole cdac com joke \? evans domain minyos xx rmit oz au really wanna know tell 'em god drunk
crux1 cit cornell edu \( philip f iv \) subject car wash hurt cars finish \? summary car wash better worse nothing hand washing detailing nntp posting host crux1 cit cornell edu organization cornell university lines 13 taking car car wash hurt car 's finish \? , better hand wash month , take car wash anyway \? detailing places worth money \? good , careful job washing waxing , detail place going worth \? reply email address crux1 cit cornell edu views reflect cornell 's sue dry
subject tires comparison opus uucp \( valentin \) distribution world organization california state university , lost angels nntp posting host opus calstatela edu lines 28 looking buy 4 new tires \( r hr \) n't much spend , would like tire last anyone experience following brands \? general others , find 70 like said , mostly interested speed , since hardly get drive 80 90 mph also , true noone give warranty tires , according tire dealer \? finally , hr tires last longer r tires \( \) , strictly speed factor \? thanks replies whatever n't kill makes stronger internet calstatela edu bitnet bitnet
c23st kocrsv01 delcoelect com \( spiros triantafyllopoulos \) subject lexus infiniti organization delco electronics corp lines 19 article issa cwis issa cwis unomaha edu \( issa el \) writes n't numbers car names engine size liters \? e ls400 4 engine , sc300 3 0 liter sport coupe q45 4 \( similar , kinda , bmw mb deal \) issa funny , thought numbering scheme lexus infiniti related sticker price anything else , e infiniti g20 \( around 20k \) , q45 \( around \) , lexus \( rip \) \( around 25k \) , lexus es300 \( around 30k \) , etc conspiracy theory \? spiros spiros triantafyllopoulos c23st kocrsv01 delcoelect com software technology , delco electronics \( 317 \) 451 0815 gm hughes electronics , kokomo , 46904 post , therefore armm
kevinh hslrswi hasler ascom ch \( kevinh \) subject v4 engines reply kevinh hasler ascom ch organization ascom hasler ag lines 27 originator kevinh nath article 1993apr26 kronos arc nasa gov , freud arc nasa gov \( chuck fry \) writes article 1993apr23 mit edu singer mit edu \( matthew r singer \) writes n't saab v4 \? recall someone telling something like 1 2 ford 289 \( correct spelling \) , 95 wagon 96 sedan used 1500 cc 1700 cc v 4 ford germany particular motor 60 degree vee angle , balance shaft exhaust ports motor later stretched v 6 commonly seen capri think reverse , v4 2 3 v6 v 4 could make pretty reasonable power size saab , made much torque transmission , designed 3 cylinder 2 stroke also worst engine ford \( europe \) ever made bloody awful reputation 's successful application transit van saab gave motor made triumph \( half v8 \) license \( believe \) , 2 litre capacity perhaps different arrangement cylinder head studs , developing straight four triumph kevinh hasler ascom ch
jmh hopper virginia edu \( jeffrey hoffmeister \) subject impala ss going organization itc uva community access unix internet project lines 15 still ca n't understand hype ss , still ugly caprice body \( wheels \) caprice worst new body style come detroit ever ! lt1 engine suspension added still ugly , still gm 's answer everything throw v8 someone buy add plastic ground affects stickers call gt , gtz ss , someone buy imho gm needs scrap caprice body completely start blank sheet paper minor modification \( wheel well treatments , tail amp modification , nose design even lt1 engine \) help existing caprice jeff
eliot lanmola engr washington edu \( eliot \) subject best radar detector valentine 1 \? organization skulls 'r us lines 32 nntp posting host lanmola engr washington edu extended ka bands recently bought 2 band detector guys must think i'm nuts , right \? well , little research ka usage area found ka currently used state well surrounding states 's found cop friend spend time nailing n't even know ka 's heard k , use explained ka used photo radar etc said , yeah , ka stands k automatic went say plans made getting laser guns far going high tech concerned , n't know much 8 year old 2 band consistently going speed traps , even real sneaky ones called escort shop , confirmed ka used surrounding states claim laser used lot , quite skeptical end , instead spending lot money waiting months state art detector , got low priced , high performance 2 band escort 2200 incidentally performance equal top line model x k band detection know escort surpassed brands lately , 've never fully relied detector convinced escorts would least quite good , good enough wallet eliot
markm bigfoot sps mot com \( mark monninger \) subject car buying story , christ , another dealer service scam nntp posting host 223 250 10 7 reply rapw20 email sps mot com organization sps distribution usa lines 22 article 1993apr27 slcs slb com dcd se houston geoquest slb com \( dan day \) writes article 1993apr16 newsgate sps mot com rapw20 email sps mot com writes go find invoice prices car , add reasonable profit dealer \( 200 300 \? \? \) , offer price stick whoa ! watch terminology dealer invoice dealer cost 's probably true 's closest 're going get actual dealer cost depends lot things even dealer probably n't know exactly factory kick backs , incentives , etc paid often depends volume end month quarter whatever might funny 's start , except sticker , anyone pays sticker price really ripped mark
mobasser vu vlsi ee vill edu \( bijan mobasseri \) subject v4 v6 v8 v12 vx \? organization villanova university lines 9 seen lots discussion automobile engine configuration let ask similar question aviation field must seen images prop planes cylinders exposed seen 8 cylinders positioned circular fashion prop center circle arrangement always brings geometric dilemma one crankshaft throw accomodate 8 rods pistons displaced visible outside bijan
sontakke helix enet dec com \( sontakke \) subject review 1989 ford taurus sho organization digital equipment corporation lines 21 article andrew cmu edu , sam andrew cmu edu writes one way , works manual trans cars 've driven , personal favorite \( suggestions great , try one , \) pushing shifter gently towards reverse , let clutch slowly \( right friction point \) shifter pulled position right , car wo n't jump backward , gears grind glide back sam vouch method 1990 sho sure way putting reverse without problem every time sontakke digital equipment corporation , maynard internet sontakke helix enet dec com uucp decvax , ucbvax , allegra ! decwrl ! helix enet ! sontakke sontakke helix enet decwrl dec com
etxmst sta ericsson se \( markus strobl 98121 \) subject license plates nntp posting host st83 ericsson se reply etxmst sta ericsson se organization ericsson telecom ab lines 14 article anl ollie solbourne com , guerra solbourne com \( guerra \) writes would like know anyone still copy list license plates posted time ago regarding special names sayings , ! markus
strait cheetah csl uiuc edu \( jeffrey c strait \) subject bmw parts organization university illinois lines 12 distribution world nntp posting host cheetah csl uiuc edu greetings automobile enthusiasts anyone tell mail order company sells bmw parts discounted cheaper dealerships sorry 's faq email replies much appreciated thanks , jeff strait strait uicsl csl uiuc edu university illinois phone \( 217 \) 333 ladies leave island , survive basic recruit training , weapon , minister death praying war
tartarus uwa edu au \( desmond chan \) subject honda clutch chatter organization university western australia lines 8 nntp posting host tartarus uwa edu au x newsreader nn version 6 4 19 1 also experience kinda problem 89 bmw 318 cold start ups , clutch seems sticky everytime drive , , clutch seems stick onto somewhere depress clutch , whole chassis moves along , becomes smooth think suggestion right remedy also found clutch already thin still alright couple grand !
chris camp pitt edu \( chris emerson \) subject nasty insurance people keywords insurance distribution usa organization university pittsburgh medical center , lines 24 hello everyone , insurance question allstate insurance situation person car car dealer person reports accident \( cars involved \) driver estimates damage cost cost car insurance people claim car totalled exceeding repair costs person says ! ! ! ! drove car ! takes another place place estimates 2 , 101 00 damage 2 , 000 less dealer one hitch car registered florida accident occurred question insurance recognize pay damages , fixable , car even though declared totalled \? please respond via e mail think know anything sort thing chris camp pitt edu thanks
bob1 cos com \( bob blackshaw \) subject ford probe , import car year organization corporation open systems distribution usa lines 22 msuinfo cl msu edu newman cps msu edu \( timothy newman \) writes okay , okay , know ford probe made us , fact 's made michigan , mazda plant question parts american japanese sources \? told us assembly plants japanese import almost parts used vehicles information anyone appreciated ! ford aimed 75 us content designed new probe actual practice came 77 us content '89 example 23 imported may engine brakes , least '89 brakes tim newman newman cps msu edu bob
rjwade rainbow ecn purdue edu \( robert j wade \) subject saturn extended warranty organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 21 article austin ibm com login austin ibm com writes 've owned saturn year half , n't extended warranty , traded 1993 \( reasons wo n't mention unless someone wants know \) opted 5 year 60 , 000 mile extended 50 deductible 's sorta like buying health insurance could say 're sick , n't sick , ca n't guarantee wo n't sick tomorrow little money invested today better sick tomorrow able pay , pay lot tomorrow today justify want extended warranties ripoff , high profit item dealer n't buy 60k , get 3yr 36k free , bought 24k still pay 50 every time use great better put money bank use repairs need considering last car 1 5 years old , sure even keep new one past 's free warranty period \? btw , typical profit extended warranties around 80 's right , 20 money needs go collective pot pay future repairs group extended warranty people collect
rjwade rainbow ecn purdue edu \( robert j wade \) subject 1994 mustang organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 13 way 5 0 camaro drums rear breaks hello , 90 's \? vlasis theodore good point would think car companies would make 4 wheel disc standard done really cost much disc \? especially think economies scale would gain making 4 wheel disc seperate parts numbers orders etc btw , z28 trans formula disc , bottom line models rear drums
jkjec westminster ac uk \( shazad barlas \) subject car saftey important \? organization university westminster lines 10 safety important buying car wo n't buy small car like civic whatever great safety handling speed safety handling speed rich ! ! ! ie merc ! ! !
organization penn state university psuvm psu edu subject changing oil idiots lines 14 article 1993apr26 cs tulane edu , mark luke cray com \( mark dean \) says quit whining net changing oil ! ! ! ! ! ! ca n't handle simple procedure changing oil get somebody else get hell network ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! md cool ! people much right \( btw , kind friendly , helpful service expect cray \? \)
nancy hayduke \( nancy feagans \) subject dumbest automotive concepts time nntp posting host hayduke organization jet propulsion laboratory \( nasa \) lines 25 article bense 33 oasys dt navy mil bense oasys dt navy mil \( ron bense \) writes article 1993apr24 ns1 cc lehigh edu amh2 ns1 cc lehigh edu \( alois himsl \) writes article 1993apr15 jpl devvax jpl nasa gov , nancy hayduke \( nancy feagans \) writes ashtrays cigarette lighters option forget cigarette lighter plug essential plugging radar detectors lights ashtrays also essential great places keep change tokens would n't rather type standard electrical plug instead fire hazard waiting happen adaptor \? know would , would also prefer placed cup holders instead ashtray \( car came coin holders already built \) ron exactly took words right mouth , ron \) nancy j feagans \( 818 \) 306 jet propulsion lab nancy jpl devvax jpl nasa gov shred evidence exists favor idea life serious
kits sfu ca \( '69 dart \) subject '88 corolla 5spd organization simon fraser university , burnaby , b c , canada lines 12 hi , maybe help '88 corolla 5 speed subject line says gearbox seems used '85 corolla , also somewhat , 30 , 000 miles , n't nearly bad car ! fluid case \? , could low , need change \? recall , autos fluid mistaken \? please flames owning import also old dodge , 's good shape days thanks , derek
gibbonsa fraser sfu ca \( darren gibbons \) subject datsun nissan 240 260 cars organization simon fraser university , burnaby , b c , canada lines 19 well , opel deal fell i'm looking datsun sale local buy sell previous owners experience cars \? besides looking rust , good compression , low miles , usual car things one looks , anything special cars watch \? things like handling , performance , mileage , etc cars look hot , eyes least , bear passing resemblance aston martin \( sp \? \) , one cars ever made difference , , \? rather imho , cars decent thanks darren gibbons gibbonsa sfu ca
alung megatest com \( aaron lung \) subject waxes keywords color match , liquid glass organization megatest corporation distribution usa lines 26 article 1993apr27 magnus acs ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu \( bret \) writes spring upon us 's time start waxing wondering anyone suggestions waxes know wax often recommended net , wondering colored waxes cover minor scratches colored waxes give overall good quality shine \? good paint clear coat \? liquid glass , clear polish dries clear thus filling scratches \? good paint clear coat \? please post good bad experiences hey , let 's name names \( brands \) ! \) ! stick plain 'ol wax 's non eagle 1 , , turtle wax , others good examples colored waxes color scratches 're apparent better approach buff minor scratches completely cleaner mild never tried liquid glass , although still sample sent years back aaron
mbeaving bnr ca \( beav \) subject opinion means nntp posting host bmerh824 reply mbeaving bnr ca organization bell northern research , ottawa , canada lines 26 real stupid remarks beav lighten \( esp beav \) agree lots serious dribble real reason hey , n't really care , someone sends email telling fuck , get rather pissed posted net , could really care less , sending mail childish mr infant \( e \) , infant give years grow maybe 'll learn network etiquette ca n't stand flames , n't brains , stay newsgroup kind catchy pas \? beav mike beavington dod 9733 v65sabre mbeaving bnr ca employer idea i'm talking !
subject shaft drives wheelies stafford vax2 winona msus edu \( john stafford \) distribution world organization winona state university nntp posting host stafford winona msus edu lines 13 article wrs 4180 wslack uucp , wrs wslack uucp \( bill slack \) wrote uh , folks , shaft n't diddleysquatpoop get front wheel ground 5 , ferchrissake ! statement true spirit list false statement misinformation 's spirit , bill 5 wheelies 's chain drive model john stafford minnesota state university winona standard disclaimers apply
leland stanford edu \( michael j \) subject need advice riding someone pillion keywords advice , pillion , help ! organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa distribution na lines 11 one point yet mentioned hands driver 's shoulders definite feels good passenger stretch arms , shoulder massage feels good , shoulders connected arms , arms handlebars hit brakes , pressure shoulders make steering interesting bundle 's cold , make sure good gear \( say \) , pat thigh let know great good luck ! mike
essbaum rchland vnet ibm com \( alexander essbaum \) subject mail order response time disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host relva rchland ibm com organization ibm rochester lines 18 article oasys dt navy mil , sturges oasys dt navy mil \( richard sturges \) writes ordered many times competition get 2 3 day delivery backorder something , sent card say would two weeks came 10 days ordered 2 fork seals 2 guide bushings ca fzr two weeks later get 2 fork seals 1 guide bushing call ca ask remaining guide bushing order 2 slide bushings \( explain phone bushings guy seemed understand \) two weeks later get 2 guide bushings sigh much wanna bet get parts take fork apart parts wo n't fit \? axel
essbaum rchland vnet ibm com \( alexander essbaum \) subject exhaust coating disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host relva rchland ibm com organization ibm rochester lines 29 since least one person interested fzr 's black exhaust pipes rusty researched getting repaired yesterday bought 1500 degree black header paint spent hour sanding two header pipes hand sprayed paint thought clean able get metal sanding determined would n't suprised paint wore chipped month soooo call couple places minneapolis discover powder coating , extremely durable , handle 600 degree temperatures place talked said experimenting new powder supposed handle 1100 degrees would n't available months least directed another shop specializes header coating shop said 2 available one 1200 degrees comparable powder coating durability silicon \( think \) based 1800 degrees \( ! \) thinner durable finish \( super smooth \) cleaned hot water brush price 4 1 foot header pipes 2 foot 4 2 1 collector 100 i'm planning take parts friday get back \( ups \) next week maybe wednesday sounds like kind coating stuff way better paint considering much abuse pipes get road crap rocks axel
ray unisql uucp \( ray shea \) subject ok , little hasty organization unisql , inc , austin , texas , usa lines 15 article 1993apr20 010734 megatek com randy megatek com writes perhaps dwi lousiana confined liquor \? everything louisiana related liquor eating , sleeping , walking , talking , church , state , life , death , everything plus food good , ray shea wound like effective method unisql , inc leah unisql ! ray cs utexas edu days miss boon real bad dod 0372 team twinkie '88 hawk gt
cassidy elan rowan edu \( kyle cassidy \) subject question \? \? \? \? lines 11 nntp posting host rowan edu organization rowan college new jersey distribution usa article 1993apr21 research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com \( chris behanna \) writes article frigate cis ohio state edu fields cis ohio state edu \( jonathan david fields \) writes probably stupid question new motorcycle scene n't really know anything dod \? setup site arnie skurow probably want see many faq 's 'll get oh well goes
karr cs cornell edu \( david karr \) subject countersteering sans hands organization cornell univ cs dept , ithaca ny 14853 lines 17 article quantum qnx com dagibbs quantum qnx com \( david gibbs \) writes yes , even steering hands something quite similar countersteering basically turn left , quick wiggle bike right first , causing lean occur left sounds suspiciously like black magic quick wiggle right mean handlebars turn toward right turning left , input steering mechanism makes happen absence old shove shove \? david karr \( karr cs cornell edu \) '80 bmw r65 dod 0969 also bmwmoa , nra , aclu , et al
jeq lachman com \( jonathan e quist \) subject battery charger keywords battery charger nntp posting host birdie i88 isc com organization lachman technology , incorporated , naperville , il lines 20 article netnews upenn edu sanjay kin lap upenn edu \( sanjay sinha \) writes noticed halogen table lamp runs 12 volts big plugs wall says 12 volts dc , 20ma question trickle charge battery cb650 \? could , would considerably cheaper spend 8 trickle charger k mart , venture , target , would replace halogen lamp power supply fuse trying pump current battery charging , charger putting around 14 15 volts well jonathan e quist jeq lachman com lachman technology , incorporated dod 094 , kotpp , kotcf '71 cl450 k4 gleep naperville , il 's nothing quite like pitter patter little feet , followed words daddy ! yay !
mock watt support corp sun com \( joseph \) subject dual sport recomendations organization sun microsystems inc lines 15 distribution rec nntp posting host watt corp sun com looking buying dual sport type motorcycle first cycle well interested experiences people following motorcycles , good bad honda suzuki suzuki yamaha xt350 xxx vs articles seen magazines pit honda another cycle , 650 always comes shining safe assume 250 would equal quality \? thanks joe
paulb harley tti com \( paul blumstein \) subject good reasons wave nntp posting host harley tti com organization black belt motorcyclists association lines 24 article 1993apr21 rd hydro ca jlevine rd hydro ca \( jody levine \) writes article mavenry altcit eskimo com maven mavenry altcit eskimo com \( norman hamer \) writes waving bikers makes sense hey , 's going , nice meet road , good ride 2 \) keeps habit watching really carefully bikes 're cage good thing anyone , driving cage , ever waved bikers \? get urge , 've never actually done 've people cages wave give thumbs occassion \( always return wave thumbs \) never happened started riding harleys , may something try waving \? bad could happen \? russian fun 5 times 6 paul blumstein , paulb harley tti com , dod 36 , abate , ama , hog , doh 2 kd6laa , marc , arrl , platypus 240 , qrp arpci , naswa , lwca , rcma \( cala905 \) transaction technology , inc , santa monica , ca
tobias convex com \( allen tobias \) subject type spesifications \( cb , vfr , gt , etc \) nntp posting host hydra convex com organization convex computer corporation , richardson , tx , usa x disclaimer message written user convex computer corp opinions expressed user necessarily convex lines 33 article agate berkeley edu robinson cogsci berkeley edu \( michael robinson \) writes article 1993apr20 adobe com cjackson adobe com \( curtis jackson \) writes article c5sk1d c1p srgenprp sr hp com frankb sad hp com \( frank ball \) writes honda v designates v engine street bike vf v 4 , vt v twin honda hawk \( nt 650 \) \? 's twin , called vt new technology yeah , honda cx500 \( also v twin , direction \) \? cycle experimental got mechanic al lamb 's honda ! 0 0 1991 cbr600f2 \( \) allen tobias technical email \( \) \( \) convex computer corp marketing tobias convex com \( \) \( \) 3000 parkway \( \) \( \) richardson , tx \( \) bike awesome i'm fearless let 's go jay gleason
randy megatek com \( randy davis \) subject krypto cables \( cobra locks \) reply randy megatek com organization megatek corporation , san diego , california distribution usa lines 29 article csundh30 ursa csundh30 ursa calvin edu \( charles sundheim \) writes follow , bad experience w krypto lock last year bought krypto cable ii \( 3 8 x3 4' long , something like \) standards seemed like decent piece used anyway , short , 3 8 cables seems pretty useless , would guess larger cable seems much better unit 've got larger cable 5 8 inch diameter \( actually , think larger \) , 4 feet long coils 8 9 inch coil , key lock like u locks worked fine two years , seems \( , anyway \) secure n't weaknesses u locks liquid nitrogen trick supposedly , much easier store tankbag u lock , versatile got mine one mail order houses \( motorcycle accessory warehouse , beleive \) , 42 combination ignition disable , couple , usually worry vandalism randy davis email randy megatek com zx 11 00072 pilot uunet ! ucsd ! megatek ! randy dod 0013 , one goes eleven nigel tufnel , spinal tap
wrs wslack uucp \( bill slack \) subject shaft drives wheelies distribution world organization w r slack lines 32 article stafford stafford winona msus edu stafford vax2 winona msus edu \( john stafford \) writes article wrs 4180 wslack uucp , wrs wslack uucp \( bill slack \) wrote uh , folks , shaft n't diddleysquatpoop get front wheel ground 5 , ferchrissake ! statement true spirit list false statement misinformation 's spirit , bill 5 wheelies 's chain drive model john stafford minnesota state university winona standard disclaimers apply knew posted going get trouble suppose give 5 wheelie demos spring fling something 're right , john , chain drive model think goes around rocker arms something stolen early spagthorpe design , according urban legend bill wrs gozer mv com \( bill slack \) dod 430 tears shed vain every word lost rumble engine smoke exhaust ! oo
cus cam ac uk \( \) subject wanted uk bmw tips nntp posting host bootes cus cam ac uk organization u cambridge , england lines 14 hi , i'm market buying bmw ideal would r80 rs 'd interested r80 sale age problem i'm interested good example without massive amount miles one well maintained intend keep well time would also like know anyone sound advice regards insurance old , licence 9 years , accidents claims convictions old enough get bmw owners club insurance yet wait next year \? ian future beemer owner
lemay netcom com \( laura lemay \) subject need advice riding someone pillion keywords advice , pillion , help ! organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) distribution na lines 65 article c5t759 dsc well sf ca us rwert well sf ca us \( bob wert \) writes need advice someone ride pillion 750 ninja first time 've taken anyone extended ride \( read farther around block \) 'll riding twisty , fairly bumpy roads \( mines road mt hamilton loop sf bay areans \) extended ride passenger 750 ninja well , hate wet sock , , well passenger many bikes longest time started riding , grew hate long rides sport bikes passenger seats designed long rides passenger positions n't even usually designed short rides ended torturing knees back taking long rides passenger sport bikes one reasons originally liked current much bmw \) 'd suggest shorter extended ride first short turn mountains see much pain 's , proceed best advice 'd give beginning passenger n't get bike rider says ok , work sort signal rider tell ok get get bike squeeze riders hips tell i'm ready , stop head show ok get keep feet pegs times n't wiggle \( unless rider asks \) best passengers echo movements lean rider look shoulder thats comfortable , turns look shoulder inside turn get used rider 's shifting style \( riders use reasonably consistent shifting style \) avoid helmet helmet rider revs bike shifts sudden change acceleration causes helmet gets old real fast pulling stop , put hand hands tank keep weight pushing rider onto tank putting hands tank also good way stretch back 're pain , i'm told gets harder steer turns leave switch hands stretch shoulders , sure squeeze thighs 're rider knows 're still \) guard rail n't safe holding onto rider n't afraid ask frequent stops 're pain losing feeling feet passenger seats generally designed comfort work sort pull signal beforehand laura lemay lemay netcom com writer shadows blood
laszlo eclipse cs colorado edu \( laszlo nemeth \) subject new motorcycles nntp posting host eclipse cs colorado edu organization university colorado boulder , pizza disposal group lines 24 article mdennie beryllium , mdennie xerox com \( matt dennie \) writes netnews upenn edu sanjay kin lap upenn edu \( sanjay sinha \) writes article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu \( andrew infante \) writes curtis jackson pens msf course 140 ! one costs 35 ! \( deal \? ! \) free philadelphia \) pays cheapie msf deals \? states subsidizing \? 25 erc 50 msf state n't subsidize 1 every motorcycle endorsed license laz
speedy engr latech edu \( speedy mercer \) subject need advice riding someone pillion organization louisiana tech university lines 29 distribution na nntp posting host bhm116e spc engr latech edu article zowie daedalus stanford edu zowie daedalus stanford edu \( craig powderkeg deforest \) writes turn dynamics sit feel like 're sitting upright good advice please , sudden moves taps shoulder let know uncomfortable , turn , prepared move back bike trust essential 1 bad crash \( nail rear tire left hand sweeper crest hill pavement gravel road \) actions helped lessen severity crashing , stayed upright saddle feet pegs hands waist able get bike slowed 10 15mph high sided got fair case road rash doc remove lot rocks knee would probably crashed greater speed causing greater injury btw , soon tire went flat , went violent tank rode normal riding posture ! dod 8177 technician \( dr speed \) student stolen taglines god real , unless declared integer came , saw , deleted files black holes god dividing zero world end 5 minutes please log earth 98 full please delete anyone
speedy engr latech edu \( speedy mercer \) subject good reasons wave organization louisiana tech university lines 13 nntp posting host bhm116e spc engr latech edu article 1993apr21 1911 linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org \( cookson \) writes waved guy riding mower morning count \? btw , live country everyone waves ! dod 8177 technician \( dr speed \) student stolen taglines god real , unless declared integer came , saw , deleted files black holes god dividing zero world end 5 minutes please log earth 98 full please delete anyone
ai598 cleveland freenet edu \( mike sturdevant \) subject shaft drives wheelies organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 23 reply ai598 cleveland freenet edu \( mike sturdevant \) nntp posting host slc10 ins cwru edu previous article , xlyx vax5 cit cornell edu \( \) says possible wheelie motorcycle shaft drive \? absolutely early 's good mike terry '82 virago n't try virago unless already good like smell exploded clutch go fast take chances mike
speedy engr latech edu \( speedy mercer \) subject wanted advice new cylist organization louisiana tech university lines 17 nntp posting host bhm116e spc engr latech edu article 1993apr21 hsh com binger hsh com writes article 1993apr20 rd hydro ca , jlevine rd hydro ca \( jody levine \) writes question dangerous riding \? might add two things stupid road design \( poor , least \) louisiana state sign caution sub standard dod 8177 technician \( dr speed \) student stolen taglines god real , unless declared integer came , saw , deleted files black holes god dividing zero world end 5 minutes please log earth 98 full please delete anyone
npet bnr ca \( nick pettefar \) subject squid \? \( riceburner respect \) nntp posting host bmdhh299 organization bnr europe ltd , maidenhead , uk x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 24 dana h myers , tue , 20 apr 93 19 51 16 gmt wibbled article c5qqxp ie1 cbmvax cbm commodore com hartzler cbmvax cbm commodore com \( jerry hartzler cats \) writes article 1993apr15 192558 3314 icomsim com mmanning icomsim com \( michael manning \) writes duck squids n't wave , return waves ever , even excuse ignoramus , squids everybody chris behanna especially squid dana h myers i'm bmw squid two arms longer , nick \( bs biker \) dod 1069 concise oxford longer arms m'lud nick pettefar , contractor large teneo tuus intervallum cuurrently incarcerated bnr , npet bnr ca '86 bmw k100rs kay maidenhead , united kingdom pres pbwasoh \( uk \) , bs 0002 \(
npet bnr ca \( nick pettefar \) subject paint jobs uk nntp posting host bmdhh299 organization bnr europe ltd , maidenhead , uk x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 31 lisa rowlands , wed , 21 apr 1993 10 13 31 0000 wibbled anyone recommend good place reasonably priced bike paint jobs , preferably essentially london area thanks lisa rowlands alex technologies ltd cp house 97 107 uxbridge road tel 44 \( 0 \) 81 566 fax 44 \( 0 \) 81 566 london email lisa alex com w5 lisa , try pip 081 590 8045 wonderful things paint 've seen work 's good best luck nick \( well connected biker \) dod 1069 concise oxford boring paint job m'lud nick pettefar , contractor large teneo tuus intervallum cuurrently incarcerated bnr , npet bnr ca '86 bmw k100rs kay maidenhead , united kingdom pres pbwasoh \( uk \) , bs 0002 \(
npet bnr ca \( nick pettefar \) subject happy easter ! nntp posting host bmdhh299 organization bnr europe ltd , maidenhead , uk x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 61 dave edmondson , wed , 21 apr 1993 12 05 41 gmt wibbled nick pettefar \( npet bnr ca \) wrote kevinh , tue , 20 apr 1993 13 23 01 gmt wibbled jonathan quist yes , 's minor blasphemy u companies would \? \? likes , jaguar , \( sob \) lotus 's outright sacrilege rr non british ownership 's fundamental thing lotus looks set management gm n't happy elan late pricey write elan development costs may able sell sensible price think legal clause rr name , regardless owns must british company owner e ba sell company name kevinh hasler ascom ch n't believe ba anything rr 's seperate company rr aero engine company 's vickers rolls royce cars yes kevin posts , morgan use sliding pillar front suspension ob bike \( long bleeding last \) pettefar get mail address list \? dave david edmondson davide dcs qmw ac uk queen mary westfield college dod guzzi le mans 1000 means end horse drawn zeppelin , mean like one signature \? ! hello ! nick \( connected biker \) dod 1069 concise oxford mail address m'lud nick pettefar , contractor large teneo tuus intervallum cuurrently incarcerated bnr , npet bnr ca '86 bmw k100rs kay maidenhead , united kingdom pres pbwasoh \( uk \) , bs 0002 \( \)
nelson seahunt imat com \( michael nelson \) subject insurance discount nntp posting host seahunt imat com organization seahunt , san francisco ca lines 25 article 1993apr20 organpipe uug arizona edu asphaug lpl arizona edu \( erik asphaug x2773 \) writes way , i'm moving bay area 'll insuring bikes , registering ease shock , somebody cost insuring \? tucson cost 320 \( full \) 200 \( liability \) two , per agent daniel sui , 's done quite good job might check , 's located san francisco specializes bike insurance daniel sui insurance 338 balboa street san francisco , ca 1 415 752 michael michael nelson 1993 cbr900rr internet nelson seahunt imat com dod 0735
speedy engr latech edu \( speedy mercer \) subject looking movies w bikes organization louisiana tech university lines 12 nntp posting host bhm116e spc engr latech edu article 1993apr21 i88 isc com jeq lachman com \( jonathan e quist \) writes freebie bean , great chase scene trials bike ! dod 8177 technician \( dr speed \) student stolen taglines god real , unless declared integer came , saw , deleted files black holes god dividing zero world end 5 minutes please log earth 98 full please delete anyone
essbaum rchland vnet ibm com \( alexander essbaum \) subject v max handling request disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host relva rchland ibm com organization ibm rochester lines 33 article tcora b329 gator 3 pica army mil , tcora pica army mil \( tom coradeschi \) writes jearls tekig6 pen tek com \( jeffrey david earls \) wrote ba7116326 ntuvax ntu ac sg writes hello anyone handson experience riding yamaha v max , pls kindly comment handling guy came race school last weekend number plates v max n't get 2 practice laps pushed frame hard drove guard rail back straight btw rider conscious semi coherent ambulance carted 's know hate pick someone may seriously injured \( let 's hope \) , semi coherent sounds like good description someone shows track w vmax first place make showing old interceptor worse brakes handling \( due bent frame \) vmax \? n't even uh well , semi coherent ambulance uh nevermind axel \)
davet interceptor cds tek com \( dave tharp cds \) subject need parts info 1963 scooter organization tektronix colorado data systems , englewood , co lines 32 article slack sim es com slack sim es com \( pete \) writes also looking brakes info existing shoes vintage brakes 176 ave newbury park , ca \( 805 \) 498 types obsolete motorcycle brake shoes material also owners anywhere contact place try register grover place , la \( club types two wheeled german equipment , including periodically see ads scooter stuff newsletter \) dave tharp dod 0751 ca n't wear davet interceptor cds tek com mra 151 indian scout , '88 k75s '48 indian chief ahrma 751 brother chief '75 r90s \( 151 \) '72 tr 2b \( 751 \) ama 524737 're built like rocks '65 r50 2 velorex '57 nsu max take knocks , 1936 bmw r12 \( compulsive 's harleys employer idea joiner \) give grief
nelson seahunt imat com \( michael nelson \) subject shaft drives wheelies article myrddin ddx distribution rec organization seahunt , san francisco ca lines 12 nntp posting host seahunt imat com article 1993apr19 vax5 cit cornell edu xlyx vax5 cit cornell edu writes possible wheelie motorcycle shaft drive \? front wheel use lever right handlebar accomplish michael michael nelson 1993 cbr900rr internet nelson seahunt imat com dod 0735
nelson seahunt imat com \( michael nelson \) subject need maintenance tips nntp posting host seahunt imat com organization seahunt , san francisco ca lines 20 article world std com cgkarras world std com \( christopher g karras \) writes reading service manual bike \( suzuki 1990 \) couple questions hope answer checking oil level dip stick built oil fill cap , one check cap screwed \? bikes 've seen use dipstick rather sight glass designed check without screwing manual cbr900rr , specifically state done way michael michael nelson 1993 cbr900rr internet nelson seahunt imat com dod 0735
essbaum rchland vnet ibm com \( alexander essbaum \) subject exhaust coating disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host relva rchland ibm com organization ibm rochester lines 25 article coburnn spot colorado edu , coburnn spot colorado edu \( nicholas coburn \) writes essbaum rchland vnet ibm com \( alexander essbaum \) writes fzr 's black exhaust pipes rusty researched getting repaired yesterday bought 1500 degree black header paint spent hour sanding two header pipes hand sprayed paint thought clean able get metal sanding determined would n't suprised paint wore chipped month parts deleted axel axel , purchase one exhaust 40 \? look great cheaper powder coating \( dilemma opted quite pleased \) ok 's exhaust bra \? i'm guessing 's fabric thing straps pipes go chin fairing lowers way \? usually n't ride lower plastic axel
joe rider cactus org \( joe senner \) subject kinder , gentler bmw mailing list reply joe rider cactus org \( joe senner \) organization texas splatterfest lines 63 know 's already bmw mailing list , since 's r bike list \( limited r80 r100 bikes well believe \) 've decided give go see much interest please read post plan subscribing list ! one restriction discussion list , bmw 's n't care bmw , welcome probably post articles appear local bmw club newsletter , would club members , especially tech articles subscribe list , send message list address bmw rider cactus org word subscribe \( caps \) subject message word subscribe subject way subscribe put keyword message body , message go everyone list ridiculed beyond belief line must valid return address list sw use address line would like use return address contained line , send mail list ! send note directly \( joe rider cactus org \) 'll take care manually list sw hack outgoing message line original full name \( \) 's preserved , return address replaced mailing list address \( bmw rider cactus org \) allows simply reply message keep list \( depending mail interface use elm 's wrote \) keep mind reply message question authors remove name list , send message list address word unsubscribe \( caps \) subject message word unsubscribe subject way remove name list put keyword message body , message go everyone list ridiculed beyond belief list run home system , poor little 286 box running old version something smells somewhat like unix mta n't around , 've managed hack enough make decent list mta additions handled automatically scripts intercept messages based subject \( see \) may occassionally sw send response message back subscribe receive response within reasonable amount time \( link via uucp sometimes runs \) , send message \( joe rider cactus org \) 'll look list turns popular mta number addresses , 'll freeze list recipients come better mta good luck joe senner joe rider cactus org joe mpd tandem com bmw mailing list bmw rider cactus org austin area ride mailing list ride rider cactus org
joe rider cactus org \( joe senner \) subject personal michael reply joe rider cactus org \( joe senner \) distribution na organization lines 8 michael , sent inquiry bmw mailing list , sw replaces return addr list addr ca n't reply manually add please see post list contact directly joe senner joe rider cactus org bmw mailing list bmw rider cactus org austin area ride mailing list ride rider cactus org
rose hp com \( steve \) subject xs 850 never needs valve adjustments \? organization hewlett packard roseville site lines 12 nntp posting host rose hp com x newsreader tin version 1 1 3 pl6 bought yamaha 8k miles last 2 years , 've put 30k commute miles valve adjustment intervals suppossed every 5k well every 7 5k , 've checked pad , never change ! anything , clearances seem getting little smaller makes sense pad system pads wear clearances great right \? know threaded adjusters tighten , n't think kind could bottom lines n't touched valves 30k bike still nice quiet anything , clearances tighter 's deal \? yam triple owners notice extremely long valve adjustment intervals \?
mbeaving bnr ca \( michael beavington \) subject good reasons wave nntp posting host bmerh824 reply mbeaving bnr ca organization bnr ottawa , dms software design lines 27 article mdennie beryllium , mdennie xerox com \( matt dennie \) writes 1993apr22 linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org \( cookson \) writes article 1993apr22 tti com paulb harley tti com \( paul blumstein \) writes 've people cages wave give thumbs occassion \( always return wave thumbs \) never happened started riding harleys , may something ever notice little kid wave bikers \? reactions little boys seems enthusiastic wave \( also good see \) always wave see kid least noticed bike figure helps future sport yeah , 's impossible tough biker 5 year old starts waving beav mike beavington dod 9733 v65sabre mbeaving bnr ca employer idea i'm talking !
egreen east sun com \( ed green pixel cruncher \) subject test ride gts1000 organization sun microsystems , rtp , nc lines 20 distribution world reply egreen east sun com nntp posting host laser east sun com article mti sgi com , zulu mti sgi com \( tim layman \) writes signing buy bike wreck sue matter papers , pointed bike said fun little nervous \( well lot nervous \) mainly expensive bike would hate buy new one let alone wrecked one \( sure \? harley 's disclaimer says , crash , take care bike , take care really responsible bike , insurance cover \? ed green , former ninjaite drinking last night biker , ed green east sun com showed picture said , dod 0111 \( 919 \) 460 8302 go , get know , 'll like ! \( grateful dead \) seemed like least could
egreen east sun com \( ed green pixel cruncher \) subject good reasons wave organization sun microsystems , rtp , nc lines 14 distribution world reply egreen east sun com nntp posting host laser east sun com article beryllium , mdennie xerox com \( matt dennie \) writes genetic thing little boys \? even three four year old boys seem attracted motorcycles sort \( often dismay thier mothers \) think answered question ed green , former ninjaite drinking last night biker , ed green east sun com showed picture said , dod 0111 \( 919 \) 460 8302 go , get know , 'll like ! \( grateful dead \) seemed like least could
npet bnr ca \( nick pettefar \) subject wanted uk bmw tips nntp posting host bmdhh299 organization bnr europe ltd , maidenhead , uk x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 35 , wed , 21 apr 1993 17 11 39 gmt wibbled hi , i'm market buying bmw ideal would r80 rs 'd interested r80 sale age problem i'm interested good example without massive amount miles one well maintained intend keep well time would also like know anyone sound advice regards insurance old , licence 9 years , accidents claims convictions old enough get bmw owners club insurance yet wait next year \? ian future beemer owner best advice would contact local dealer \( see yellow pages motorcycle dealers \) ask address local section bmw owners club local bmw dealer give details bmw insurance terms club help details getting bike dealer best bet , afford warranty fairly handy bm bits made solid gold , apart parts made platinum apparently nick \( broke bmw biker \) dod 1069 concise oxford m'lud nick pettefar , contractor large teneo tuus intervallum cuurrently incarcerated bnr , npet bnr ca '86 bmw k100rs kay maidenhead , united kingdom pres pbwasoh \( uk \) , bs 0002 \(
stanford edu \( richard \) subject first bike honda ascot \? organization stanford university , california , usa lines 12 csi compuserve com \( nathan betz \) writes i'm going buying first bike i'm considering 82 honda ascot less 5k miles sound like reasonable choice \? anything special need know \? '82 ascot first bike recommend anyone 's interested , mine 's sale 's la currently , bum starter around 10k miles 'd like couple hundred rich
phj remus rutgers edu \( p ju \) subject new motorcycles organization rutgers univ , new brunswick , n j lines 13 lmsc5 lmsc lockheed com writes \( thread comparative costs msf courses deleted \) hey ! even highest price mentioned \( 140 us \) course 200 , new jersey \( bargain worth every penny , lots things 'll get related bike wo n't feel way patricia phj remus rutgers edu
karr cs cornell edu \( david karr \) subject bmw heated grips organization cornell univ cs dept , ithaca ny 14853 lines 20 article world std com artc world std com \( art campbell \) writes bergman panix com \( mark bergman \) writes bmw heated like summer \? yes , , mean ! comfortable \? 're hard rubber like compound always wear kind glove \( \) days given two factors , 're ok , certainly needed heated grips made pieces old bicycle inner tube cheap electric heating pad , top foam grips soft warm cheaper factor 5 , david karr \( karr cs cornell edu \)
mjs sys uea ac uk \( mike sixsmith \) subject death 2 stroke die \? organization university east anglia lines 12 zebee wattle itd adelaide edu au \( zebee \) writes loads horrendous mz engine problems deleted ideas folks \? yeah , buy four stroke \)
subject cb750 c flames exhaust ! ! ! ! stafford vax2 winona msus edu \( john stafford \) distribution world organization winona state university nntp posting host stafford winona msus edu lines 16 article cmptrc lonestar org , neal cmptrc lonestar org \( neal howard \) wrote hey , lone biker apocalypse \( see raising arizona \) flames coming exhaust pipes love toggle kill switch sportster produce flaming , especially underneath overpasses night \( 's loud lights whole ! ! ! ! keep people ass really back away see canon fire rolling back harley oh , yea raises hell john stafford minnesota state university winona standard disclaimers apply
subject posted gif bmw r100s stafford vax2 winona msus edu \( john stafford \) distribution world organization winona state university nntp posting host stafford winona msus edu lines 22 article 1993apr22 news columbia edu , scs8 cunixb cc columbia edu \( sebastian c sears \) wrote went played w columbia 's scanner scanned bunch pictures new \( \) 1977 bmw r100s , however , color , 256 greyscale gifs mind posting euro archive \? directory specifically bmws ftp 134 29 65 5 \( vax2 winona msus edu \) user euro pass spooge cd bmw get put please john stafford minnesota state university winona standard disclaimers apply
berkeley ca us \( andrew scott \) subject drinking riding organization san jose , california , home perverted hackers lines 18 hartzler cbmvax cbm commodore com \( jerry hartzler cats \) writes article 1993apr18 aber ac uk azw aber ac uk \( andy woodward \) writes generally find two three decent hits nitrous , riding improves enormously drinking silly , breath smells , costs lots money pigs detect machines works , try free sit behind old car jam , breathe deeply dentist car \) otherwise get back thinks gots gases confused comes cars carbon monoxide comes nitrous oxide co
inde7wv rosie uh edu subject back breaker , near hit ! ! organization university houston lines 11 reply inde7wv rosie uh edu nntp posting host rosie uh edu year half ago first started riding , took msf course taken lessons heart past year near collisions traffic morons four wheels yesterday got add another list one felt helpless sitting light 1 2 car lengths behind car , wise suddenly hear screeching tires dart eyes mirrors realize 's flying right behind , panic pop clutch stall bike luckily guy stops foot behind rear wheel understand theoretically stop far behind car really actuality avoid incident \? suggestions \?
karr cs cornell edu \( david karr \) subject need advice ! \( i'm new rider \) organization cornell univ cs dept , ithaca ny 14853 lines 23 article 1993apr21 bsu ucs 00cjmelching leo bsuvc bsu edu writes tachometer sticker right says first 500 miles go 4 , 000 rpm 's , next 500 miles , n't go 6 , 000 \( referred break period n't know \) well , , would never going 35 mph even 6th gear ! ! ! question , hurt new cycle take 6 7000 rpm range least go speed limit \? \? \? \? already go speed limit 4000 rpm need find road 35 mph speed limit n't quite silly sounds take nice day trip back roads \( highways full people trying seriously get \) might able hold 35 mph comfortably could easily 500 miles three different weekends might even get enjoy scenery yes , know probably bought 250 called ninja david karr \( karr cs cornell edu \) '80 bmw r65 dod 0969 also bmwmoa , nra , aclu , et al
txd esd 3com com \( tom dietrich \) subject please tell 're permenant scratches ! lines 25 nntp posting host able mkt 3com com mjs sys uea ac uk \( mike sixsmith \) writes bobm brimstone \( bob morley \) writes article andrew cmu edu , catherine barbara saum cs20 andrew cmu edu writes passngering fiance 's bandit , hip pack rubbed tail left nasty dull finish teeny scratches way get rid \? buff \? wax \? help ! makes full line compounds waxes read pick one matches marks see paint fiance favor putting nice thick coat wax bike little scratches buff '86 concours sophisticated lady tom dietrich '72 1000cc sportster 'ol sport sale dod 055 '79 sr500 spike , garage rat ama queued m900 ! ! fssnoc 1843 two gather , big fun ! 1kspt 17 28 bell \( 408 \) 764 5874 cool rule , sometimes e mail txd able mkt 3com com \( h lewis \) disclaimer 3com takes responsibility opinions preceding
bclarke galaxy gov bc ca subject buy first bike , etc organization bc systems corporation lines 19 article inform co nz , inform co nz \( michael \) writes article 1993apr20 galaxy gov bc ca , bclarke galaxy gov bc ca writes lot posts lately wanna buy first bike gsxr zx cbr fzr good bike learn \? etc sure buy 's problem \? small learner 's bikes well , problem might ca n't buy bikes north america \( except gsxr 400 bandit 400 \) bruce clarke b c environment e mail bclarke galaxy gov bc ca
bclarke galaxy gov bc ca subject none organization bc systems corporation lines 11 thinking going motorcycle tour new zealand november january tour companies , notably beach tours anyone done let know experiences , good bad \? thanks bruce clarke b c environment e mail bclarke galaxy gov bc ca
mbeaving bnr ca \( michael beavington \) subject well blow yuk , yuk , yuk keywords wind nntp posting host bmerh824 reply mbeaving bnr ca organization bnr ottawa , dms software design lines 15 article 1993apr23 1564 news columbia edu , rdc8 cunixf cc columbia edu \( robert castro \) writes decide windy ride \? easy dragging pegs driving straight line actually 've driven 50 mph side winds little difficulty beav mike beavington dod 9733 v65sabre mbeaving bnr ca employer idea i'm talking !
dave dal farra gpz750 bnr ca subject contemplating ottawa san francisco ottawa trip x xxdate fri , 23 apr 93 15 47 14 gmt nntp posting host organization bnr ltd x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d9 lines 73 article l quantum qnx com david gibbs , dagibbs quantum qnx com writes greetings rec motorcyclists coming labour day weekend year , \( world science fiction convention \) held san francisco \( california \) planning attend speculating trip motorcycle instead plane \( initial thought \) live \( would \) ottawa , ontario \( canada \) planned take two weeks trip , giving 5 days travel time either side weekend looks like distance 2800 miles \( 4500 km \) distance calc correct road distance \( crow flies \) , day 5 days spend entire time interstates , would total waste time , 's least 8 hours road every day including eating peeing sight seeing etc contemplating similar trip , ottawa la , maybe ottawa austin tx figured wanna trip magnitude enjoy , 'd get ass major interstates spend lots time enjoying country around e stopping camera , meeting towns people , going bars sense spending 2 weeks looking helmet closest human contact found gas pump estimated 'd need least 4 5 weeks make trip worthwhile looking input , opinions , comments , remarks 1 sanity question 8 \) 2 suggested routes \( note , getting important , schedule n't leave lot room side trips , routes \) try stay interstates ! ! ! 5 anybody wants join trip \( even part distance \) depending route plans , may heading way far least detroit 7 anything comes mind , think might relevant call 're book motorcyclists large number books highlighting best roads motorcyclists along general route 're looking carry listings bed states accept motorcyclists order free catalog within 'll probably find books covering absolutely needs trip 's motorcyclist cycle world classifieds thanks input david gibbs \( dagibbs qnx com \) kawasaki concours dod 585 k dave f 's true say money talks mine spoke said drink ! '
egreen east sun com \( ed green pixel cruncher \) subject well blow yuk , yuk , yuk organization sun microsystems , rtp , nc lines 29 distribution world reply egreen east sun com nntp posting host laser east sun com article 1564 news columbia edu , rdc8 cunixf cc columbia edu \( robert castro \) writes decide windy ride \? 's windy stand 're road high winds , stay alert even alert alert 'cause 're motorcycle 're kill kind alert aware terrain , may funnel wind sudden gusts \( well , gusts somebody standing , 's 'cause ride \) riding steady , aware hill block wind , adjust lean angle aware passing trucks side , lean angle change dramatically enter leave cone reducing profile may help , ie , lean gas tank kiss triple clamp keep nimble hand steering , ready countersteer sudden wind bursts keep larger usual buffer zone , ahead behind , side , easily blown half lane react countersteering keep close eye traffic mirror , someone coming wanting pass , get way early stop often short brakes , extensive riding high winds mentally physically ed green , former ninjaite drinking last night biker , ed green east sun com showed picture said , dod 0111 \( 919 \) 460 8302 go , get know , 'll like ! \( grateful dead \) seemed like least could
mjs sys uea ac uk \( mike sixsmith \) subject , xxxx , mean police officers read stuff \? organization university east anglia lines 8 bgardner pebbles es com \( blaine gardner \) writes introducing new polysyllabic word \( , example \) polysyllabic polysyllabic \)
tobias convex com \( allen tobias \) subject starting trouble cbr600f2 nntp posting host hydra convex com organization convex computer corporation , richardson , tx , usa x disclaimer message written user convex computer corp opinions expressed user necessarily convex lines 82 article sf rpi edu chungy2 aix rpi edu \( yau felix chung \) writes trouble starting \( keeping running \) 1992 cbr600f2 problems since last year , seemed subsided 's back problem persists regardless choke usage pattern , gasoline type \( brand octane \) pretty much anything else imagine change dealer stumped \( 's still warranty \) start bike runs great \( 45 90 seconds \) engine starts slow decreasing idle setting increase engine speed increasing choke increases engine speed regardless , engine eventually slow \( stop \) stopped , restart \( even flooded engine drill \) let sit \( 45 90 minutes \) starts beautifully runs great ever go , ride hard 100 miles bring back , ride easy miles let cool , put away next day , go thru drill get going ideas \? anyone seen \? another f2 rider similiar problems , mail sent , hope helps resolve problem ! allen tobias writes check vent tube tank sometimes tube clogged prevents gas flowing carbs vacuum created displacement gasoline small tube bottom tank , large tube overflow remove left side tail section get access area good luck ! clogged , would n't interfere engine operation time \? runs , runs well good point , catch original post things come mind , since gravity feed fuel system , fuel petcock valve vacuum controlled 1 let suppose small hole bad seal either hose vacuum valve fuel petcock cold , hole open enough open valve enough allow gas carbs choke , since choke creates low pressure carbs draw gas , engine surrounding area warm , hole seals one way check fuel flow valve would pull side panels remove fuel hose carbs connect tube correct size , preferably clear tubing observe fuel flow , output side fuel petcock remove control hose 1 make sure tank full place valve position apply vacuum control hose , preferably vacuum device gauge , check air leaks vacuum applied , fuel flow freely see vent problem , fuel filler cap open closed , flows lot faster filler cap open , may something vent changes position depending position may clog partially clog vent heard f2 fuel tanks replaced fix problem things might defective , control hose 1 carb , petcock valve , possibly fuel tank vent shows problem fuel flow cold , something carbs screwed , many things check , would typing day list ! , everything back together , apply vacuum petcock valve open drain holes carbs one one check fuel flow open check foreign debris clogged carbs , quite carb hope something flushed trouble shooting american honda resolve , get mad hell report bbb call honda customer service hotline 800 number , n't recall top head called tires f2 days later customer satisfaction inquiry card arrived home asking liked support received , would chance tell think ! buy service manual f2 , invaluable source information working bike might add , trouble shooting !
csundh30 ursa calvin edu \( charles sundheim \) subject bikes nntp posting host ursa organization calvin college lines 14 jlevine rd hydro ca \( jody levine \) writes 've bike like jody levine dod 275 kv got pf jody p levine hydro ca ride toronto , ontario , canada know syd meant wrote line \? \? damn , wrong newsgroup \? wrong newsgroup , syd mean wrote line \? erc , always curious dod 1138
behanna syl nj nec com \( chris behanna \) subject maxima chain wax organization nec systems laboratory , inc lines 22 article myrddin imat com nelson seahunt imat com \( michael nelson \) writes article 93apr20 211127 44984 acs ucalgary ca parr acs ucalgary ca \( charles parr \) writes chain lubed , wheel clean , 1000km careful similarly impressed first recently started finding rust spots chain went back least sucker never using \( tm \) spray chain wax onto rollers occassionally , rust problem later , chris behanna dod 114 1983 h fxwg wide glide jubilee 's red lady behanna syl nj nec com 1975 cb360t baby bike disclaimer would nec 1991 zx 11 needs name agree anyway \? raised pack wild corn dogs
mjs sys uea ac uk \( mike sixsmith \) subject xs 850 never needs valve adjustments \? organization university east anglia lines 19 rose hp com \( steve \) writes bought yamaha 8k miles last 2 years , 've put 30k commute miles valve adjustment intervals suppossed every 5k well every 7 5k , 've checked pad , never change ! anything , clearances seem getting little smaller makes sense pad system pads wear clearances great right \? know threaded adjusters tighten , n't think kind could bottom lines n't touched valves 30k bike still nice quiet anything , clearances tighter 's deal \? yam triple owners notice extremely long valve adjustment intervals \? yeah , valve seats tend wear slowly , anything might get taken pad \( n't really wear \) tend compensate 's sort self system
infante acpub duke edu \( andrew infante \) subject dogs vs bikes organization duke university durham , n c lines 31 nntp posting host teer1 acpub duke edu article 93112 cunyvm bitnet cunyvm bitnet \( robert chambers \) writes article news duke edu , infante acpub duke edu \( andrew infante \) says ca n't 've obviously waited long , putting much effort 80 lb dog \( always \) used fart time making notice \( course smell n't bother ! \) , thence kicking outside \( somewhat literally \) , came realize shoudl n't \( least around \) , two years later , still n't big dog \? size cow ready burst \? 's supposed mean \? 's 80 lbs understand english \? 1 2 \) let wind break cause fed cheap food , thing every time adjust different brand andy infante listen everybody says , fact remains '71 bmw r60 5 've got get thing dod 2426 joan sutherland opinions , dammit , nothing anyone else ! ! !
klinger ccu umanitoba ca \( jorg klinger \) subject still cold , nntp posting host ccu umanitoba ca organization university manitoba , winnipeg , canada lines 29 hoc agate berkeley edu robinson cogsci berkeley edu \( michael robinson \) writes article 1993apr22 aber ac uk azw aber ac uk \( andy woodward \) writes day large group us much admire wish could like macho british studs 've grown well , thought yanks parochial least aspire better things andy , ever going get straight \? yanks self satisfied 's canadians parochial , yanks midway invasion florida n't even aware yet jorg klinger gsxr1100 new arch eng services lost horizons cr500 think umanitoba , man ca embalmer it175 anonymous squidonk
randy megatek com \( randy davis \) subject shaft drives wheelies reply randy megatek com organization megatek corporation , san diego , california lines 19 article 1993apr22 asl dl nec com drinckes tssc wlg nec co jp writes course , people seem acting smug probably chain final drive \( , know , less efficient higher maintenance \) probably n't know answer start thread go change laws physics \? \) according numbers used see bandied around , shaft drive order 95 97 efficient , chain drive closer 99 seems makes chain drive efficient , hmmmmm \? \? \? granted , shaft lot less maintenance , fine , n't mind less performance \) \) randy davis email randy megatek com zx 11 00072 pilot uunet ! ucsd ! megatek ! randy dod 0013 , one goes eleven nigel tufnel , spinal tap
infante acpub duke edu \( andrew infante \) subject opinion means organization duke university durham , n c lines 48 nntp posting host teer1 acpub duke edu article nmrdc1 nmrdc nnmc navy mil dsc3jfs nmrdc1 nmrdc nnmc navy mil \( jim small \) writes article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu \( andrew infante \) writes since occurance , 've paid many dollars renumerance , taken drunk class , , yes , listened self righteous assholes like think rest world 've never little dd suaree us n't fucking stupid cock sucking asshole 's n't little dd suaree i'm soo impressed 've spend precious little dollars make stupid act go fuck friends killed drunk driving assholes like infante 2 children friends drunk driving assholes like infante 2 's self righteous asshole , weak willed fuck head \? think , small , feeble minded , yeah , one stupid little act people like gonna get 're thick excuses skull sized piece shit call brain \? n't go back rock navy provided homophobic racist sexist asshole friends give daily rim jobs place opinion belongs , ass ! \? , alternatively , blow , closeted wannabe andy infante listen everybody says , fact remains '71 bmw r60 5 've got get thing dod 2426 joan sutherland opinions , dammit , nothing anyone else ! ! !
asper calvin uucp \( alan e asper \) subject need advice ! \( i'm new rider \) organization usr lib news organization lines 17 nntp posting host calvin sbc com article 1993apr21 bsu ucs 00cjmelching leo bsuvc bsu edu writes well , , would never going 35 mph even 6th gear ! ! ! question , hurt new cycle take 6 7000 rpm range least go speed limit \? \? \? \? inconvenience bought ex 500 could least go 50 mph initial break despite high quality motor oils motorcycle engines days , would follow instructions , keep city street riding first 500 miles heck , miles go fast , 's worth know n't possibly screwed engine time , 6 week long thread debating whole break topic alan
speedy engr latech edu \( speedy mercer \) subject need advice ! \( i'm new rider \) organization louisiana tech university lines 41 nntp posting host bhm116e spc engr latech edu article 1993apr21 bsu ucs 00cjmelching leo bsuvc bsu edu writes important question n't able find answer 've asked mechanics others , one really give answer satisfies bought brand new kawasaki ninja 250 first time buyer well first time rider bike seemed satisfy needs may reason n't know answer question tachometer sticker right says first 500 miles go 4 , 000 rpm 's , next 500 miles , n't go 6 , 000 \( referred break period n't know \) well , , would never going 35 mph even 6th gear ! ! ! question , hurt new cycle take 6 7000 rpm range least go speed limit \? \? \? \? information could give would greatly appreciated ! ! ! ! send reply account , 'd like , back net thank much taking time read reply chris go speed limit long salt , ar n't gonna yer ride would n't ride dod minimum 500 miles , hell , good weekend ! dod 8177 technician \( dr speed \) student stolen taglines hey ! go \? n't think naahh
gnome pd org \( mike \) subject dogs organization laughing gnome software farm , atlanta , ga , usa lines 15 nntp posting host noel pd org x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 speedy mercer \( speedy engr latech edu \) wrote let fido yer left arm bites , bring right forearm hard back neck bushing back left arm fido 's mouth followed dull crack one limp dog total cost , couple holes left arm ar n't wearing leather aerostitch hold procedure \? i'm ordering mine monday , may 3 i'm happy , \) \) mike mike gnome pd org ! emory ! pd org ! gnome ama dod 522 irony spice life '90 bianchi '82 suzuki revolution televised
clarke bdrc bd com \( rick clarke \) subject countersteering sans hands organization becton dickinson research center r p nc usa lines 25 nntp posting host bdrc bd com steer hands n't bars \? \( open budweiser david gibbs replies case original poster looking serious answer , 'll supply one yes , even steering hands something quite similar countersteering basically turn left , quick wiggle bike right first , causing lean guess semi serious without using hands , lean bike turns leaning , torque applied , angle front wheel 's axle , countersteering however , torque also axis steering head instead making bike lean , effect makes bars turn , n't remember way rick oh yeah , tried driveway , , \( suggested somewhere else \) n't seem work rick clarke \( clarke bdrc bd com \) ama something , something ,
car377 cbnewsj cb att com \( charles rogers \) subject , xxxx , mean police officers read stuff \? organization summary oooh ! ! lines 21 article 1993apr23 dsd es com , bgardner pebbles es com \( blaine gardner \) writes flaming tutorial novice another thing consider , like mexican food , lot folks mistake heat quality subtle references various personal qualities habits ancestry generally earn points four letter words caps lock key introducing new polysyllabic word \( , example \) likely insure small part flame become immortal ! 's blast past indeed ! 'd nearly forgotten strategic significance r lore 's really good see proudly displayed , although i'm sure carbs spooge rama long disuse gosh , i'm tingling ! \) chuck rogers car377 torreys att com
berlin de \( ronald j \) subject low powered bikes ! organization public access unix system x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 18 anybody share opinion big city traffic bike low powered example cant accelerate trouble necessary screwed versions bikes sold german market different classes liscence seems make lot middle aged men putt putt around 25 hr getting way real traffic ! anybody else opinions topic ! \? email berlin de ronald j ron looking new work berlin \( voice \) 49 30 rent rooms ! fax 49 30
egreen east sun com \( ed green pixel cruncher \) subject back breaker , near hit ! ! organization sun microsystems , rtp , nc lines 22 distribution world reply egreen east sun com nntp posting host laser east sun com article 3tu menudo uh edu , inde7wv rosie uh edu \( \) writes understand theoretically stop far behind car really actuality avoid incident \? suggestions \? even better strategy leave less buffer car front , enough around keep bike 1st gear clutch handle squeezed \( 's engaged \? \) , two cars stopped behind next bdi cager comes , simply ride along side car front n't need panic , pop clutch stall engine smoothly , rapidly cage front provide much better protection anything else \( particularly empty road \) ed green , former ninjaite drinking last night biker , ed green east sun com showed picture said , dod 0111 \( 919 \) 460 8302 go , get know , 'll like ! \( grateful dead \) seemed like least could
nak cbnews cb att com \( neil kirby \) subject boom ! dog attack ! organization lines 10 worked lean towards dog modulated throttle keep ankle ahead teeth seconds warm pipe firmly wedged shoulder turned face sideways see warm got mouth nose muzzle burned pipes one yip away , never chase neil kirby dod nak archie att com bell labs columbus oh usa \( 614 \) 860 think speak might lawyers sense
infante acpub duke edu \( andrew infante \) subject wanted police officers answer posting organization duke university durham , n c lines 38 nntp posting host teer1 acpub duke edu article shaman wv tek com wv tek com writes article news duke edu , infante acpub duke edu \( andrew infante \) writes really expect cop answer honestly \? \( first gotta expect cop honest 's another story \) yeah , everybody knows cops always lie people deal day day always tell truth sir , sir , drinking tonight , playing around back sir , n't speeding , realy going , guy next n't ya see \? come stereotyping cops better stereo type us say try show open mind around us would ask know stretch worth try reason saying 'cause , cop would n't go way tell people break law would \? part honesty joke , sorta obviously , people bad experiences cops lying obviously , nobody 's perfect nobody always tells truth everything \( god \? 1 4 \) andy infante listen everybody says , fact remains '71 bmw r60 5 've got get thing dod 2426 joan sutherland opinions , dammit , nothing anyone else ! ! !
klinger ccu umanitoba ca \( jorg klinger \) subject daytona nntp posting host ccu umanitoba ca organization university manitoba , winnipeg , canada lines 25 rtaraz bigwpi wpi edu rtaraz bigwpi wpi edu \( ramin taraz \) writes well , watched daytona race tnn boy people saw yamaha lot faster kawi \? last stretch took left kawi dust kawi rider disappointed kawi ! lawson yamaha taking anything away russel , , well jorg klinger gsxr1100 new arch eng services lost horizons cr500 think umanitoba , man ca embalmer it175 anonymous squidonk
robinson cogsci berkeley edu \( michael robinson \) subject still cold , organization institute cognitive studies , u c berkeley lines 18 nntp posting host cogsci berkeley edu article ccu umanitoba ca klinger ccu umanitoba ca \( jorg klinger \) writes hoc agate berkeley edu robinson cogsci berkeley edu \( michael robinson \) writes andy , ever going get straight \? yanks self satisfied 's canadians parochial , yanks midway invasion florida n't even aware yet typical first attempt foriegn policy , one even notices canadians even make boring michael robinson uucp ucbvax ! cogsci ! robinson internet robinson cogsci berkeley edu
svoboda rtsg mot com \( david svoboda \) subject locks security \( yamaha locks \) nntp posting host corolla18 organization motorola inc , cellular infrastructure group lines 73 maybe pet peeve , definitely playmate peeve article news2 cis umn edu lynx umn edu \( bill \) writes lock including easy break person proper supplies motivation 3 minutes bike gone ! would glad explain dont want contribute unlawful activities make anyone 's skeptic alarm \( tm \) go \? offense , bill , n't mean say 're straight , wonder know \? actually every used secret method break different kinds bike locks \? taking someone 's word \? fact , unlikely someone reading anything going go successful bike stealing business read anything rec motorcycles please tell us talking ca n't even protect assault , discuss methods , n't come see , heard ones pipes , liquid nitrogen , cordless tools , bunch ones plausable method \( bike thief , really n't know certain \) put rod wheel , use four guys lift bike truck works people n't lock bikes anything since method easy , figure nice , visible chain cable locking bike something likely make lazy thief go next bike \( hey , finally advantage weight high cg concours ! \) especially since bike would hate see ripped tactic warning lock alone safe theft , thief doesnt need lock walk away property ! personally think motion alarms combination lock type way go fact concerned tactic referring \? n't know talking , ca n't well guard , \? money \( literally \) rely combination motion detector alarm pager i'm bike questionable area , c c insurance , try park obvious , visible areas lots people \( see , someone plays bike without intention stealing , least eyes , get , 'll set alarm \) 's nice bike , trick always keep actual value well blue book , looks crappy nobody would want steal , even stupid enough , would make profit deal \) seriously , \( instance \) need go business trip week , \( sadly \) leave bikes sitting , get shitty looking , useable cover , locked , bikes locked bumper parking lot light usually rig cable locks use \( aircraft cable \) anyone pulls either bike cable joining , concours alarm goes friend come buy every day look make sure 're still thing ever stolen 60 cover , winter storage , battery bike \( thus alarm \) oh , put cover locks pass , place absolutely destroy cover get 's best think locks see people put bikes look , well , mechanically sound like abus , since personally removed master locks boot dave svoboda \( svoboda void rtsg mot com \) i'm getting tired 90 concours 1000 \( mmmmmmmmmm ! \) beating , dave 84 rz 350 \( ring ding \) \( woops ! \) never learn ama 583905 dod 0330 cog 939 \( chicago \) beth bruiser dixon
apple com \( rob \) subject back breaker , near hit ! ! organization apple computer , inc lines 48 article 1r941o 3tu menudo uh edu , inde7wv rosie uh edu wrote bdc driver nearly rams back innocent biker understand theoretically stop far behind car really actuality avoid incident \? suggestions \? glad hear bozo managed stop 've riding two years , rules traffic light survival try never stop hill behind car stop location , pull almost completely next car front i'm one \( ie car front \) , turn bike somewhat sideways across lane , increase visibility oncoming vehicle make sure keep visible traffic , though \( note bike bright white turning sideways black bike might beneficial \) flat road , stop bit room ahead \( usually two three bike lengths \) \( hopefully \) give room pull forward side car approaches last line vehicles , watch mirrors constantly ! see vehicle approaching , ca n't see evidence indicate slowing , get way ! flicker brake light i'm last vehicle line , pull release brake car approaches behind \( noticed car watching mirrors , course \) vary speed flicker , hoping make cager notice 's something lane ahead , said , 's situation first line feel defenseless 're first line , forward escape route seriously limited move forward extent n't enter intersection leave room behind stop line \( although around , ! light always right next stop line ! \) , watch mirrors think 've decided bike might best way situation ideas first line traffic directly behind \? rob rob erasure u2 rem smiths apple com faa certified cloud wanna drive zamboni !
cbnewsj cb att com \( james bessette \) subject good reasons wave organization lines 11 bike wave anyone looks sort like small town wide open spaces type thing someone louisiana mentioned \( like i'm arkansas mt \) kids especially fun \( watch cliff ! ! \) \) cage usually wave bikers usually n't wave back wife thinks 's strange n't care jim bessette james bessette att com
bong slac stanford edu \( eric bong \) subject boom ! dog attack ! organization slac lines 26 article cbnews cb att com , nak cbnews cb att com \( neil kirby \) wrote worked lean towards dog modulated throttle keep ankle ahead teeth seconds warm pipe firmly wedged shoulder turned face sideways see warm got mouth nose muzzle burned pipes one yip away , never chase nice tex use california dmv recommended technique slow said dog wick pass 've often contemplated putting boot said dog 's muzzle open throttle , never tried impact would 'd dump bike bicycling technique 've employed use frame mounted tire pump fend dog attacks one occasion attacked pack four dogs steep hill lost right sock , blood complained local animal control department \( complaining owner dogs affect \) dogs dogs , attacks telephone worked much better tire pump eric bong dod 1986 1987 1991 vfr750
robinson cogsci berkeley edu \( michael robinson \) subject well blow yuk , yuk , yuk organization institute cognitive studies , u c berkeley lines 17 nntp posting host cogsci berkeley edu keywords wind article 1993apr23 1564 news columbia edu rob castro writes decide windy ride \? n't one self evident things like , decide 're gas \? never experienced wind severe physically precluded operation motorcycle 's matter deciding whether aggravation trouble 's worth course , depends entirely particular circumstances personal disposition michael robinson uucp ucbvax ! cogsci ! robinson internet robinson cogsci berkeley edu
behanna syl nj nec com \( chris behanna \) subject , xxxx , mean police officers read stuff \? organization nec systems laboratory , inc lines 24 article 1993apr23 dsd es com bgardner pebbles es com \( blaine gardner \) writes article earth cs utexas edu mcguire cs utexas edu \( tommy marcus mcguire \) writes article vtserf cc vt edu ranck joesbar cc vt edu \( wm l ranck \) writes course , get moderate amount flamage expressing opinion , matter opinion somebody flame hey , hell mean \? suck god given right express opinions , carry gun wear helmet , goddamn everything stand stupid 'd give 0 5 scale 10 mentioning hitler koresh weighs favor , also neglected mention 105 mph , tennis balls , little girls countersteering another thing consider , , weasel , later , chris behanna dod 114 1983 h fxwg wide glide jubilee 's red lady behanna syl nj nec com 1975 cb360t baby bike disclaimer would nec 1991 zx 11 needs name agree anyway \? raised pack wild corn dogs
asper calvin uucp \( alan e asper \) subject boom ! dog attack ! organization usr lib news organization lines 11 nntp posting host calvin sbc com article bong slac mac slac stanford edu bong slac stanford edu \( eric bong \) writes nice tex use california dmv recommended technique slow said dog wick pass 've often must standard strategy taught , cuz 's told illinois msf class works well , n't get satisfaction kicking shit rabid hell beast alan
fi \( teppo nieminen \) subject kawi kz 750 partial engine \? organization helsinki school economics business administration , finland keywords kawasaki lines 25 kawasaki kz 750 l4 2 3 play pedal axle , words , move axle sideways direction n't bother riding , guess fixing would n't hurt last summer took bike shop valves adjusted , mechanic mentioned easy job would remove front sprocket cover replace bushing seal would find well , upon closer inspection discovered axle n't even run sprocket cover seems , addition removing cover , would least remove sprocket cover behind sprocket question would removing small cover left side engine enable lay hands bushing seal \( n't know exact term english , sorry \) \? question anybody done job purpose \? oil , example , stay inside engine \? thanks ! teppo nieminen dod 2000 zoo mc helsinki finland
uxa cso uiuc edu \( george heinz \) subject old gasoline \? help ! organization university illinois urbana lines 23 '72 stopped riding 2 years ago \( upgraded '84 sabre 750 \) parked corner parking lot , planned draining gas , spraying oil tank , etc get ready store well , lot procrastination , ended throwing well , move want clean 350 tried starting \( someone else 's battery \) luck first guess gas plan draining replacing new gas \( pray n't trash \) question , old gas \? going run sabre , think enough n't want burn \( campus police n't think kindly \) dumping n't great idea thanks ideas , george heinz win 1 , 000 , 000 question c code \? \( fair compiling \) int 1817 main \( z , p , q , r \) \( p 80 q p 80 p 2 p \) \( z 9 z \) q 3 \( r time \( 0 \) r 57 \) 7 , q q \? q 1 \? q 2 \? 1 p 79 \? 1 0 p 79 77 \? 1 0 p 1659 \? 79 0 p 158 \? 79 0 , q \? ! p q 2 \? p p q q q 0 0 \( q 1817 \) printf \( q 79 \? c c n , ! q 1 \)
thompson apple com \( paul thompson \) subject need advice riding someone pillion organization apple computer , inc , cupertino , california lines 20 distribution na nntp posting host apple com keywords advice , pillion , help ! rwert well sf ca us \( bob wert \) writes traditional signals slow ! ! go faster ! ! hafta go pee ! ! etc \? \? \? experience pound fists back means slow seriously , concentrate smooth , make experience much enjoyable even normal causes passenger bob , ease throttle pulling clutch eliminate 's work , passenger appreciate ! also , 've found using rear brake normal helps keep bike diving much routine stops , makes much easier passenger hang 're going sport riding , passenger reach around tank n't bear weights arms \( bike dive less \) paul thompson apple computer
csundh30 ursa calvin edu \( charles sundheim \) subject wanted police officers answer posting nntp posting host ursa organization calvin college lines 19 viking iastate edu \( dan sorenson \) writes heh attitude stopped \? speaking guy recieved verbal warning 55 , laugh hey dan , potentially cool story stuff share details never get break , probably us n't either , please , enlighten , let us live story erc , mi , usa vfr750f dod 1138
keith dseg ti com \( keith \) subject dod confessional organization texas instruments information technology group lines 29 article 1993apr21 551 bnr ca mbeaving bnr ca writes hate motorcycles first thought phase though would get used n't happen tried gazing 900 customs , thats pretty hard since cb900 customs n't introduced 1980 find pre 80 one , hold onto worth big bucks day \? everytime read sig containing wheel wonder , shudder feel pity poor soul suffered enough mine wheels methinks need homework better employer idea i'm talking ! obviously , neither keith texas instruments plain , texas 80 cb900 custom dod insane society , sane man must appear insane ama company knowledge actions
ray unisql uucp \( ray shea \) subject ok , little hasty organization unisql , inc , austin , texas , usa lines 22 article speedy 173 engr latech edu speedy engr latech edu \( speedy mercer \) writes article unisql uucp ray unisql uucp \( ray shea \) writes everything louisiana related liquor eating , sleeping , walking , talking , church , state , life , death , everything dare make accusation ! accusation \? thought recommendation \( mean , grow , oughta know \) n't busy unloading beer truck week end , might come talk wit ! b bring truck 10 pounds 'll talk ray shea unisql , inc unisql ! ray cs utexas edu dod 0372 team twinkie '88 hawk gt
ray unisql uucp \( ray shea \) subject , xxxx , mean police officers read stuff \? organization unisql , inc , austin , texas , usa lines 24 article vtserf cc vt edu ranck joesbar cc vt edu \( wm l ranck \) writes course , get moderate amount flamage expressing opinion , matter opinion somebody flame oh , bill , full shit 's stupidest thing 've ever heard obmoto happened miss discussion deltabox frames , one , actually needed get work done last week anybody would care repeat got said \( since guy asked , i'm still ignorant \) could email \? thanks ray shea unisql , inc unisql ! ray cs utexas edu dod 0372 team twinkie '88 hawk gt
mcguire cs utexas edu \( tommy marcus mcguire \) subject , xxxx , mean police officers read stuff \? organization cs dept , university texas austin lines 63 nntp posting host earth cs utexas edu article 1993apr23 dsd es com bgardner pebbles es com \( blaine gardner \) writes article earth cs utexas edu mcguire cs utexas edu \( tommy marcus mcguire \) writes hey , hell mean \? suck god given right express opinions , carry gun wear helmet , goddamn everything stand stupid 'd give 0 5 scale 10 mentioning hitler koresh weighs favor , also neglected mention 105 mph , tennis balls , little girls countersteering another thing consider , like mexican food , lot folks mistake heat quality subtle references various personal qualities habits ancestry generally earn points four letter words caps lock key introducing new polysyllabic word \( , example \) likely insure small part flame become immortal blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com aw , c'mon serious overreaction ought worth couple points , mention bit condemning everthing might ever say non sequitur guns helmets proper flourish personally opinion two types good flames first trade , '' sense mention , heat certain surprise value done correctly , contend done , reasonably entertaining true flame posted mention anyone 's habitual velocity , friends , dinner , entertainment , says needs appropriate short weakness type flame actually easily taken far , point becomes trite boring \( witness infante thread recently \) type flame , seem glorifying , weaknesses well first place , get verbose tedious extreme , particularly reader already strongly identify one side second , discussing someone 's personal qualities , habits , forth quickly become libelous \( slanderous \? never remember difference \) leads proliferation lawyers , widely regarded bad thing finally , introducing polysyllabic words problematic ca n't haul big around bike , would bad form use word actually turned meaning , especially one ran counter use flamage general summary , blaine , score flame incorrect may flame , weaknesses point necessarily weaknesses , suggested corrections always useful applicable also probably could n't outrun tennis ball dog posterior , 'll bet motorcycle lean outside turning goes anyone looks like , tommy mcguire mcguire cs utexas edu mcguire austin ibm com append appropriate disclaimer outgoing public information , identifying personal independent ibm
srv pacbell com \( jon costa \) subject riders welcome join group organization pacific bell lines 9 riding group , generally speaking , people mind another rider tags along \? distinct feeling may welcome tagged along group last weekend jon faults like car headlights others seem glaring
smm uu net \( steve mansfield \) subject dogs organization uunet communications lines 71 distribution world nntp posting host uu net article acs ucalgary ca , parr acs ucalgary ca \( charles parr \) writes article sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes article adobe com , cjackson adobe com \( curtis jackson \) writes article 93apr20 193958 30419 acs ucalgary ca parr acs ucalgary ca \( charles parr \) writes sheesh , even trained attack dog match human , advantages agree 100 , chihuahua 's police military n't train use weapons easy average joe defeat barehanded may opposing thumbs , dog teeth effective named ir vision , better hearing better smell , likely faster reflexes 're motorcycle , 's paws roll blow n't even net access oh bull , ed use dogs \) many people scared shitless b \) nose vision hearing without cop partner attendance , dog much meat hands human bad attitude al training violent force oh horse puckey without cop partner attendance , less likely without use force would kill dog teeth n't much good arm shoved back animals throat held , neck k 've disabled dog 's mouth , given use arm front read paws , fact plug mouth 've given dog advantage balance strong neither leg joints easily snapped , skull easily crushed , even largest dogs ever tried snap leg crush skull dog without use hardened instruments baseball bat \? without use arms full cooperation involved , 's easy oh , wait , 've got arm shoved dogs mouth lose advice correct , dog still match trained human fight oh qualify earlier statement saying trained human sheesh , even trained attack dog match human , advantages people trained deal dog wants get clue regards , charles within span last weeks heard elements separate threads , conjoined time , struck together form new chord within hollow echoing gourd unknown net person steve mansfield told theres miracle day try smm uunet uu net told 's new love born one died 1983 suzuki told 'll one call feel alone dod 1718 afraid told dream next world 'll find swimming lake fire dream theater part miracle
subject need advice riding someone pillion stafford vax2 winona msus edu \( john stafford \) distribution na organization winona state university nntp posting host stafford winona msus edu lines 15 article mellon pepper ncd com mellon ncd com \( ted lemon \) writes long ride ex girlfriend nancy , would notice drifting every often swore taking passengers ten years ago , recall , 1981 getting strange looks passenger reading book n't even notice hit make hit day riders behind us john stafford minnesota state university winona standard disclaimers apply
speedy engr latech edu \( speedy mercer \) subject first bike honda ascot \? organization louisiana tech university lines 22 nntp posting host bhm116e spc engr latech edu article csi compuserve com csi compuserve com \( nathan betz \) writes hi folks i'm going buying first bike i'm considering 82 honda ascot less 5k miles sound like reasonable choice \? anything special need know \? thanks nathan nice bike loved riding brother law 's dod 8177 technician \( dr speed \) student stolen taglines god real , unless declared integer came , saw , deleted files black holes god dividing zero world end 5 minutes please log earth 98 full please delete anyone
csundh30 ursa calvin edu \( charles sundheim \) subject krypto cables \( cobra locks \) nntp posting host ursa organization calvin college distribution usa lines 17 follow , bad experience w krypto lock last year bought krypto cable ii \( 3 8 x3 4' long , something like \) standards seemed like decent piece used anyway ever used security purposes , used entertainment \( minds gutter , please \) , say sat fiddling w watching tv \( night got \) three minutes mindless fiddling \( course mindless , remember watching tv \) entire mechanism came key ! unlike old rhyme left empty cylinder non secure \( read breeze \) cable lock kinda makes wonder flat key style lock one w slide hammer viola i'm making insurance claim anyone else similar experience \( w , bike theft \) \? erc
mjs sys uea ac uk \( mike sixsmith \) subject paint jobs uk organization university east anglia lines 13 lisa alex com \( lisa rowlands \) writes anyone recommend good place reasonably priced bike paint jobs , preferably essentially london area thanks lisa rowlands try dream machine , 've seen examples work looks pretty good 're though
mjs sys uea ac uk \( mike sixsmith \) subject cager football field organization university east anglia lines 13 article one u k week soccer carried field collision ford sierra cage seems cage driver wanted turn around , needed drive onto pitch , waited till ball players end unfortunately , soon started someone booted ball back pitch , ran backwards towards goal , straight cage !
bradw newbridge com \( brad warkentin \) subject shaft drives wheelies nntp posting host thor organization newbridge networks corporation distribution rec lines 24 article 698 netcom com bethd netcom com \( beth dixon \) writes beth one true beth dixon bethd netcom com 1981 yamaha sr250 excitable girl dod 0384 1979 yamaha sr500 spike garage rat fssnoc 1843 1992 ducati 750ss ama 631903 1963 ducati 250 monza restoration project 1kqspt 1 8 keep handle anything side deranged zz top wait one cotton picking minute dod rule 417 1 2 section 6 paragraph 3 clearly indicates multiple people ca n't lay claim bike obvious ploy artificially increase size stable question day spike owned lady true class breeding \( definition woman rides \) \) tom head \? \? \? also note lay claim connie ol sport \( like said , obviously lady discriminating taste \) bored minds know bj bradw newbridge com sig plan clue dod 255
prange nickel ucs indiana edu \( henry prange \) subject need advice riding someone pillion keywords advice , pillion , help ! nntp posting host nickel ucs indiana edu organization indiana university distribution na lines 12 n't find pee scaring n't seat first ride even think need urine qualities henry prange biker renal physiology iu sch med , , dod 0821 bmwmoa gsi 215 ride '92 r100gs '91 rx 7 conv cage 2 '91 explorer cage 2 four tenets major religions 1 right 2 wrong 3 hence , deserve punished 4
epcot spdc ti com \( mike \) subject squid \? \( riceburner respect \) nntp posting host epcot organization ti semiconductor process design center lines 20 article 1993apr20 195116 locus com dana lando la locus com \( dana h myers \) writes article c5qqxp ie1 cbmvax cbm commodore com hartzler cbmvax cbm commodore com \( jerry hartzler cats \) writes article 1993apr15 192558 3314 icomsim com mmanning icomsim com \( michael manning \) writes duck squids n't wave , return waves ever , even excuse ignoramus , squids everybody chris behanna especially squid squid guy saw back december cool 40 degree morning way work wearing knee length pants , light jacket , gloves , though going considerably slower dod nominal poser squid guy saw yesterday way home similar attire sans jacket \( april texas ya know \) , riding freeway , left hand side \( kinda \) , body turned slightly left brings whole new meaning term poser
cds ossi com \( chris \) subject need advice riding someone pillion keywords advice , pillion , help ! distribution na organization open systems solutions inc lines 29 nntp posting host ossi com random thoughts riding passenger 's substitute bike sufficient power , taken passengers occasionally small \( 125 etc \) bikes used ride uk hard ! i'm riding 's great , even moving riding recently may due part fact neither , regular passengers , particularly ! always tell passengers , stay line bike corners , makes movements predictable regular passengers tend hold either rack nothing , n't really like passenger hold onto except short periods may biased fact 've couple new passengers \( friend recently first time bike \) hold real tight , making kind maneuvering difficult 've also discovered longer trips prefer passenger moves shifts weight bit recently took work meeting \( 1 hour ride \) sat totally still whole way left also sitting still getting sore back code system turns , stop 'i need shift chris , fujitsu open systems solutions inc phone 1 510 652 hollis street , , ca , usa fax 1 510 652 dod per , sun
frank marvin contex com \( frank perdicaro \) subject hawk gt new seat review keywords corbin lines 30 unable stand pain anymore , wife bought corbin lady passenger backrest hawk gt came instructions , came 2 weeks earlier said would installation would easy , seat hardware apparently always wrong sides stock seat ! never easy put figured , new seat went first try passenger backrest , though , fit thought might supplied screw set backrest angle fit , yet found suitable , hard , \( sae grade 8 , perhaps 5 \) 1 4 20 bolt fits soft bolt n't lean back driver 's section seat bit wider seems comfortable enough , put 5000 miles stock seat without thought passenger 's section 8 times volume foam stock seat , short test seems much comfortable backrest helps bit , 've enough time really test backrest also comes small pocket difficult swing leg 10 taller seat go three notch ride soon \( , smugglers \) , 'll give complete report , general seems like improvement frank evan perdicaro color systems legalize guns , drugs cash today 101 drive frank marvin , wakefield frank contex com , 617 245
cookson mbunix mitre org \( cookson \) subject maxima chain wax nntp posting host mbunix mitre org organization mitre corporation , bedford , lines 19 article 93apr20 211127 44984 acs ucalgary ca parr acs ucalgary ca \( charles parr \) writes bought , tried , truly , miracle spooge chain lubed , wheel clean , 1000km 'd try vfr , goddamn competition accessories n't mailed order yet hell , 's two weeks ordering pretty bizzare stuff like clear rf 200 face sheild , chain wax bastards dean dean cookson dcookson mitre org 617 271 2714 dod 207 ama 573534 mitre corp burlington rd , bedford , 01730 kotnml kotb road shepherd shall stop '92 vfr750f sam eliott , road hogs mtv 1993 '88 bianchi limited
cookson mbunix mitre org \( cookson \) subject good reasons wave nntp posting host mbunix mitre org organization mitre corporation , bedford , lines 13 article arturo infmx arturo informix com \( arturo vega \) writes anyone else ever caught waving oncoming motorcycle riders car \? 've caught bicycle count \? dean dean cookson dcookson mitre org 617 271 2714 dod 207 ama 573534 mitre corp burlington rd , bedford , 01730 kotnml kotb road shepherd shall stop '92 vfr750f sam eliott , road hogs mtv 1993 '88 bianchi limited
ranck joesbar cc vt edu \( wm l ranck \) subject dogs organization virginia tech , blacksburg , virginia lines 25 nntp posting host joesbar cc vt edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 charles parr \( parr acs ucalgary ca \) wrote oh bull , ed use dogs \) many people scared shitless b \) nose vision hearing without cop partner attendance , dog much meat hands human bad attitude al training violent force one things police dogs used take bullet instead human police officer charles said , many people scared dogs panic one goes attack turn weapon dog allows police officer take control advice correct , dog still match trained human fight single person vs single dog face face confrontation really contest dog match human willing fight multiple dogs different story bill ranck \( 703 \) 231 9503 bill ranck vt edu computing center , virginia polytchnic inst state univ , blacksburg , va
skcla monsanto com subject dod pins ! organization , , il lines 34 hi kids ol' pal \( keeper pin money ! \) 've got good new bad news good news got laid er pins coming , use computer software phrase , real soon bad news right placed order , company upped minimum order manufacturing got wire \( order 115 pins \) , result low number pins , relegated 'll get runs bin result , seems may another 4 5 weeks beloved geeky guiding along \( thought dashboard foolish hmmm , , madonna sitting dashboard , could dangerous hell i'm tough \) please continue patient soon arrive , 'll post grand announcement , rush messiah way directly abode meantime , need revised versions holy word geeky , please send 15 95 cash money order \( cod 's \) ranch er geeky , 305 cyberspace place i'm msf class hope 's boring wife made go ! michael menard
csundh30 ursa calvin edu \( charles sundheim \) subject story keywords party ! ! ! ! nntp posting host ursa organization calvin college lines 52 lynn pacesetter com \( lynn e hall \) writes lynn pacesetter com \( lynn e hall \) writes allowed \( yes , god \) open containers street signs bars yeah , right ! 20 cops hand couple thousand bikers 1 block main street citing anyone street filled empty cans least 2 feet deep gutter crowd hell shows everywhere say party \? still wonder stereotype us erc mean 'we' \( ever \) want stereotype one likes drink beer watch lovely ladies display beautiful bodies like stereotype refering infer negative noticed n't rape , pillage , burn town also left mucho bucks money town thinks town likes us least said lynn hall nos bros tend compose fair piece population ones regard bikers loud , irresponsible , , sure n't rape pillage 's relief know gentlemen completely hand justify lesser \? pretty distorted thinking , say oh i'm sorry , noticed left mucho bucks \( money \) nevermind criticism , line forgot one leaves mucho bucks \( money \) behavior permissable , perhaps even justified keep mind ones could give ! biker gets killed , elected officials institute draconian legislation \( helmet laws , gun controls , etc \) , ones n't respect rights roads respect rest time need continue \? continue wear stigma badge , next time whining effect values , remember probably behavior self righteous like kept bay long enjoy , erc dod 1138
ranck joesbar cc vt edu \( wm l ranck \) subject bmw heated grips organization virginia tech , blacksburg , virginia lines 24 nntp posting host joesbar cc vt edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 mark bergman \( bergman panix com \) wrote bmw heated like summer \? yes , , mean ! comfortable \? transmit lot vibration \? compare stock grips \? foam grips \? really make difference winter \? got k75 heated grips installed far tell grips look feel standard grips soft last weekend 500 mile round trip got point raining heated grips great 've bike month heated grips already one favorite features bike bill ranck \( 703 \) 231 9503 bill ranck vt edu computing center , virginia polytchnic inst state univ , blacksburg , va
tcora pica army mil \( tom coradeschi \) subject good reasons wave organization elect armts div , us army armt rde ctr , picatinny arsenal , nj lines 23 nntp posting host b329 gator 1 pica army mil arturo informix com \( arturo vega \) wrote maven mavenry altcit eskimo com \( norman hamer \) writes 2 \) keeps habit watching really carefully bikes 're cage good thing anyone else ever caught waving oncoming motorcycle riders car \? sure caused wife conclude totally insane , partially usually lift left hand wheel wave thru windshield damn near motion bike tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet like herd performing elephants diarrhea massive , difficult redirect , awe inspiring , entertaining , source mind boggling amounts excrement least expect gene spafford , 1992
tcora pica army mil \( tom coradeschi \) subject tracing license plates bdi cagers \? organization elect armts div , us army armt rde ctr , picatinny arsenal , nj lines 36 nntp posting host b329 gator 1 pica army mil jeq lachman com \( jonathan e quist \) wrote article sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes traffic citation accusation committed crime 's go motions trial want one , still innocent proven guilty cops ones accuse people committing crimes , anyone witnesses crime go highway patrol explain situation , give description car license number , tell specific violation law witnessed wish prosecute \( ie , search vehicle code section number handy \) fill ticket sign go system ticket cop writes goes contested , appear court prosecute word carry weight cop 's , indeed , advice got police officer close call , without additional impartial witnesses , would word vs driver 's , decide whether time inconvenience worth time inconvenience driver , also whether positive effect would result \( beyond making feel better \) 0 02 worth bdi town car passed right two lane road ! license plate \( days carried pen paper tankbag \) went local police station cops filled ticket signed paid ! tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet like herd performing elephants diarrhea massive , difficult redirect , awe inspiring , entertaining , source mind boggling amounts excrement least expect gene spafford , 1992
nyx cs du edu \( mark wallace \) subject fj1100 1200 owners tankbag suggestions wanted organization university denver , dept math comp sci lines 24 bgardner pebbles es com \( blaine gardner \) writes article 1993apr20 195116 ncsu edu martenm chess ncsu edu \( mar marten \) writes looking new tank bag , wondered , follow fj1100 1200 owners , could make suggestions , worked already file apologize asking gladly accept flames blown way ! fj 's large , flat gas tank , 'd imagine almost anything would work personally , i'm quite happy eclipse standard tank bag think thing watch number attachment straps come 3 4 , 4 strap tankbag rear tank narrow fit optimal mark , castle rock , co
mjs sys uea ac uk \( mike sixsmith \) subject dogs organization university east anglia lines 13 howland noc arc nasa gov \( curt howland \) writes article ms c 735160298 1147902781 mrc ikkoku kan panda com , mrc ikkoku kan panda com \( mark crispin \) writes i'm biker dog lover wonder bikers horrid reputation dog thrust \)
tcora pica army mil \( tom coradeschi \) subject , xxxx , mean police officers read stuff \? organization elect armts div , us army armt rde ctr , picatinny arsenal , nj lines 19 nntp posting host b329 gator 1 pica army mil jrlaf sgi502 msd lmsc lockheed com \( j r laferriere \) wrote wondering law officers read several questions would like ask pertaining motorcycles cops please n't say get vehicle code , go local station , obvious things like questions would found places answered face face real , live flesh , cop brother friend cousin whos father cop , etc n't bother writing thanks um would mind telling us state municipality live \? different laws different places , know tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet like herd performing elephants diarrhea massive , difficult redirect , awe inspiring , entertaining , source mind boggling amounts excrement least expect gene spafford , 1992
sturges oasys dt navy mil \( richard sturges \) subject hawk gt new seat review reply sturges oasys dt navy mil \( richard sturges \) organization carderock division , nswc , bethesda , md lines 10 , , put corbin seat hawk got solo seat \( could carry passenger short distance \) 100 better stock seat longer voice ride work rich sturges \( h \) 703 536 4443 nswc carderock division \( w \) 301 227 1670 speak one else , listen
binger hsh com subject wanted advice new cylist organization hsh associates lines 26 article 1993apr20 rd hydro ca , jlevine rd hydro ca \( jody levine \) writes question dangerous riding \? 's exactly dangerous looks 're hard see little protection keeping trouble means knowing limits , keeping machine good shape able predict make every stupid move drivers make deal 's fun , staying alive takes conscious effort 've bike like jody levine dod 275 kv got pf jody p levine hydro ca ride toronto , ontario , canada thanks , jody ca n't say 've ever seen summed succinctly might add two things stupid road design \( poor , least \) deal fun brotherhood share others take lives feel wind hair imho binger binger binger hsh com really thing welcome attitude express corporate opinion \? , maybe get boss let express \)
v32 uh cwru edu \( \) subject dogs organization image analysis center , univ hospitals cleveland lines 30 distribution world reply uh cwru edu nntp posting host max uh cwru edu article 93apr20 193958 30419 acs ucalgary ca , parr acs ucalgary ca \( charles parr \) writes newsgroups rec motorcycles path usenet ins cwru edu ! lerc nasa gov ! lerc nasa gov ! news edu ! net ! zaphod mps ohio state edu ! sol ctr columbia edu ! destroyer ! cs ubc ca ! unixg ubc ca ! ucs ualberta ca ! acs ucalgary ca ! parr parr acs ucalgary ca \( charles parr \) subject dogs message id 93apr20 193958 30419 acs ucalgary ca date tue , 20 apr 93 19 39 58 gmt references ms c 735160298 1147902781 mrc ikkoku kan panda com c5pntm 8co cbnewsj cb att com nntp posting host acs3 acs ucalgary ca organization university calgary , alberta lines 26 article c5pntm 8co cbnewsj cb att com car377 cbnewsj cb att com \( charles rogers \) writes , dog weighs 150lb maybe , max \? ca n't handle \? , presume , thumbs \? grapple tear 's head ! sheesh , even trained attack dog match human , advantages recent discussion rec martial arts humans definitely n't advantages dogs strong often bred fighting one sort another ed dod 1110
csundh30 ursa calvin edu \( charles sundheim \) subject newbie nntp posting host ursa organization calvin college lines 13 yes , matt , dear newbie , best advice read foe days best source info \( kinda makes glad discovered r well got riding could possibly sounded like otherwise \? \) btw matt , despite insults destined face , great move taking msf course save butt good luck , erc dod 1138
sang shin launchpad unc edu \( sang shin \) subject krypto cables \( cobra locks \) summary love cobra keywords nntp posting host lambada oit unc edu organization university north carolina extended bulletin board service distribution usa lines 38 hi i'm sure guy \( ca n't track post name \) talking made claim cobralinks adjustable 's space link teeth locking head notch thus , link possible locking point also , \( applicable hard core thieves cart around liquid nitrogen oxy acetylene torches \) cobralinks look lot effective kryptonite cable locks \( imho \) think initial appearance effect relevant bored nominally adept cracking bike deterrence , long lock nominally functional finally , notice ride leathers , harness boots , cobralinks across like \( btw , 've crashed rain dressed like lock n't vertebrae \) , cagers give much wider berth , n't hassle , tend avoid potentially inflammatory action love cobralinks almost much love pre 80 's honda dinosaur \( think put lock \( e , body \) feel bike already shaking away \) first post wrong \) \? sang dod '80 cx500 p cx500 owners \? please e mail got questions weird handling bike opinions expressed necessarily university north carolina chapel hill , campus office information technology , experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu 152 2 22 80
netcom com \( \) subject riceburner respect organization netcom online communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 21 article 1993apr18 microsoft com microsoft com \( chris \) writes generic bike riders actually seem raise hand entirely handlebar wave around , 's easy tell 're waving easily recognized special wave pay attention 'll tell hold left hand front , fingers straight apart like may also use right hand throttle lock stopped bring fingertips thumb together , touch , open back starting position , move hand slowly left gracefully waving motion squid underwater probably search food , drink , squids appropriate sexual orientation , squids go riding netcom com \( 408 \) 926 0812
plx com \( temporary technical writer \) subject need advice riding someone pillion keywords n distribution na organization plexus software , division rei lines 10 nntp posting host riding passenger n't really depend type bike things want passenger ergo , 's asking advice , reasoned n't much practice , period say , fine still would n't take road 's switch backs reverse center , mention squids also particular road asked advice , even though n't meant , still consider best 've read lee
npet bnr ca \( nick pettefar \) subject well blow yuk , yuk , yuk nntp posting host bmdhh299 organization bnr europe ltd , maidenhead , uk x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 26 ivan reid , 23 apr 1993 06 05 pst wibbled article 1993apr23 1564 news columbia edu , rob castro writes decide windy ride \? even walking \) ivan reid , paul scherrer institute , ch ivan cvax psi ch gsx600f , rg250wd si 2 66 porsche pass ! dod 484 make wind \? hear dull booming noise going hill wind behind 're careful , controls opposite effect nick \( mach 0 22 biker \) dod 1069 concise oxford m'lud nick pettefar , contractor large teneo tuus intervallum cuurrently incarcerated bnr , npet bnr ca '86 bmw k100rs kay maidenhead , united kingdom pres pbwasoh \( uk \) , bs 0002 \(
mmaser engr uvic ca \( michael maser \) subject act front traffic jerks nntp posting host uvic ca reply mmaser engr uvic ca organization university victoria , victoria , bc , canada lines 33 21 apr 1993 10 28 02 gillian e writes mere female , often found ca n't really take big offensive line asshole car drivers , found subtle ooops mean nasty way get back somebody cuts , wait till pulled past , gently lean bend aerial , every time done eventually snapped near base tends go undetected bummer replace gillian dear gillian cool idea n't think \? \? \? however , canada \( antenna \) usually near driver passenger areas would surely seen 'll give try anyway thanks first truely useable piece information heard long time \( means mere female , way getting back takes real guts \) mike maser dod squid rating 5 9235 pinetree rd sidney , b c , hopalonga yuka yuka excess 400 v8l wish list tridump , mucho , burley home \( 604 \) 656 6131 thumpison , work \( 604 \) 721 mmaser sirius uvic ca joke month gay say university victoria indian chief \? news rec motorcycles answer bum couple bucks \?
mmaser engr uvic ca \( michael maser \) subject dogs nntp posting host uvic ca reply mmaser engr uvic ca organization university victoria , victoria , bc , canada lines 49 car377 cbnewsj cb att com \( charles rogers \) writes , dog weighs 150lb maybe , max \? ca n't handle \? , presume , thumbs \? grapple tear 's head ! sheesh , even trained attack dog match human , advantages recent discussion rec martial arts humans definitely n't advantages dogs strong often bred fighting one sort another ed dod 1110 related former , come know humans advantages \( well , least one anyway \) little known fact dog release object large swallow told ever attacked dog ball hand fist force dog 's throat dog would naturally gag release , become momentarily disoriented commonly happens humans go doctor throats examined \( proof positive \) time dog 's disorientation , next move would wrap arm dog throat choke hold manner might dog lapses \( lack oxygen blood flow \) finally , run like wind get away local area dog get really pissed second thought rec rec motorcycles till next time mike maser dod squid rating 5 9235 pinetree rd sidney , b c , hopalonga yuka yuka excess 400 v8l wish list tridump , mucho , burley home \( 604 \) 656 6131 thumpison , work \( 604 \) 721 mmaser sirius uvic ca joke month gay say university victoria indian chief \? news rec motorcycles answer bum couple bucks \?
v32 uh cwru edu \( \) subject put helmet organization image analysis center , univ hospitals cleveland lines 13 distribution world reply uh cwru edu nntp posting host max uh cwru edu response jerry lotto 's post putting helmet mirror else risk damaging padding inside one major causes mirror impact pavement laws mirrors protected helmets might order seriously one place put helmet , preferably clean , footpeg , hanging chin guard , away hot pipes ed dod 1110
tony morgan demon co uk \( tony kidson \) subject paint jobs uk distribution world organization modem palace reply tony morgan demon co uk x newsreader simple news 1 90 \( ka9q dis 1 21 \) lines 25 article mjs zen sys uea ac uk mjs sys uea ac uk writes lisa alex com \( lisa rowlands \) writes anyone recommend good place reasonably priced bike paint jobs , preferably essentially london area thanks lisa rowlands try dream machine , 've seen examples work looks pretty good 're though say expensive \? tony kidson pgp 2 2 key request voice 44 81 466 5127 morgan towers , cat move e mail \( order \) morgan road , 've take top tony morgan demon co uk bromley , machine tny cix compulink co uk england br1 3qe honda st1100 dod 0801 100024 301 compuserve com
kelvin seas virginia edu \( brent stone \) subject buy first bike , etc organization university virginia lines 29 article inform co nz inform co nz \( michael \) writes article 1993apr20 galaxy gov bc ca , bclarke galaxy gov bc ca writes lot posts lately wanna buy first bike gsxr zx cbr fzr good bike learn \? etc sure buy prob 're wrong newbie got phone salesman showed remember said correctly thing thing sport bikes n't 250 versions bs
cookson mbunix mitre org \( cookson \) subject volvo attack ! nntp posting host mbunix mitre org organization mitre corp , bedford , lines 22 enough experience first volvo attack weekend last line traffic 6 vehicles long , riding rt 40 side road , sitting shoulder killer volvo question brake lights , turn signal , nothing 40 mph following cage front 2 5 3 sec back well , said cage passes volvo , brain dead idiot \( tm \) behind wheel decides n't need wait pass also turns perpendicular across lanes traffic turn around get brakes effort bone , horn effort wake bdi finishes turn , looks completely blank , stare get rocket launchers vfr \? dean dean cookson dcookson mitre org 617 271 2714 dod 207 ama 573534 mitre corp burlington rd , bedford , 01730 kotnml kotb road shepherd shall stop '92 vfr750f sam eliott , road hogs mtv 1993 '88 bianchi limited
infante acpub duke edu \( andrew infante \) subject countersteering sans hands organization duke university durham , n c lines 24 nntp posting host teer1 acpub duke edu article clarke 6 bdrc bd com clarke bdrc bd com \( richard clarke \) writes steer hands n't bars \? \( open budweiser left hand , camel cigarette right , feet allowed \) lean , bike turns , countersteering \? countersteering like taller seat , feet n't floor \? rick , would n't recommend moving , \( maybe mike beaverton complain awhile ! \) might want countersteer 're sitting driveway sounds rick falling bike , , damn , sworn 's told msf course ! ! \? andy infante listen everybody says , fact remains '71 bmw r60 5 've got get thing dod 2426 joan sutherland opinions , dammit , nothing anyone else ! ! !
infante acpub duke edu \( andrew infante \) subject bike sale , usa keywords wicked sexist organization duke university durham , n c lines 28 nntp posting host teer1 acpub duke edu article 1993apr20 news columbia edu scs8 cunixb cc columbia edu \( sebastian c sears \) writes article 1993apr19 102 zorro tyngsboro us jd zorro tyngsboro us \( jeff derienzo \) writes 've recently become father twins ! n't think afford keep 2 bikes 2 babies babies staying , 1 harleys going 1988 883 4000 mi \( hey , wife 's bike \) well pretty uncalled \( smile \) harley feeling challenged \? jeff derienzo , 'd sell bike , let ride around stay home kids \? geez , 's tough choice andy infante listen everybody says , fact remains '71 bmw r60 5 've got get thing dod 2426 joan sutherland opinions , dammit , nothing anyone else ! ! !
asphaug lpl arizona edu \( erik asphaug x2773 \) subject two beemer questions \( r80gs \) organization lunar planetary laboratory , tucson az lines 44 hello folks , i'm happy new r80gs range 238 miles 4 8 gallons 's 50 mpg ! ! surprisingly , bike real cruiser expecting something rough 's sweet backroad honey go pretty much anyplace 'd take mountain bike far shaft effect , 's torque effect crankshaft opinion rev sitting still \( moving \) bike twists bit maybe n't ride fast enough get shaft effect , opinion little buffeting wind far greater consequence okay , questions 1 \) recommendations home made fairing \? 'd like keep wind chest , perhaps helmet , comfort highway speeds \( 70 mph \) , yet n't want \( \) screw stability \( b \) block vision much trail riding anybody luck two piece fairings \? 'd like make 2 \) run two lights , standard headlamp plus sidelamp mounted crash bar illumination 's excellent way , full beam coming level motor \( left side \) lamp beam linear get bright streak illumination left right , really picks periphery \( deer lurking , etc \) combined headlamp high see like day 've heard bmw alternators n't crank much need shut sidelamp i'm around dirt low rpm \? 3 \) embarassing i'm trouble starting bike first thing morning invariably flood carbs , go read section paper , starts right zen thing \? 4 \) 's manual says circumstances use gasoline alcohol additives yeah , right folks due keep engine carbs eaten ethanol methanol \? particular brands gas best \? additives \? thanks , b h e b k e dod 88888 asphaug hindmost lpl arizona edu '90 kawi 550 zephyr \( erik asphaug \) '86 bmw r80gs u l h e r e r
txd esd 3com com \( tom dietrich \) subject shaft drives wheelies distribution rec lines 56 nntp posting host able mkt 3com com bradw newbridge com \( brad warkentin \) writes article 698 netcom com bethd netcom com \( beth dixon \) writes beth one true beth dixon bethd netcom com 1981 yamaha sr250 excitable girl dod 0384 1979 yamaha sr500 spike garage rat fssnoc 1843 1992 ducati 750ss ama 631903 1963 ducati 250 monza restoration project 1kqspt 1 8 keep handle anything side deranged zz top wait one cotton picking minute dod rule 417 1 2 section 6 paragraph 3 clearly indicates multiple people ca n't lay claim bike obvious ploy artificially increase size stable silly boy ! read rest ! go back read rule 1 question day spike owned lady true class breeding \( definition woman rides \) \) tom head \? \? \? ok , record , spike jointly owned registration says \( , title say , beth \? \) beth brought ad attention , 'd half heartedly sr500 years successfully buying rationalizing n't need spend beth piped 'll pay half ! beaten also note lay claim connie ol sport \( like said , obviously lady discriminating taste \) watch buddy ! fine rides ! beth loves riding pillion connie , true , 'ol sport n't cup tea \( ca n't get side stand \) agrees 's fine ride bored minds know bj bradw newbridge com sig plan clue dod 255 'll buy 'll even loan quarter buy clue '86 concours sophisticated lady tom dietrich '72 1000cc sportster 'ol sport sale dod 055 '79 sr500 spike , garage rat ama queued m900 ! ! fssnoc 1843 two gather , big fun ! 1kspt 17 28 bell \( 408 \) 764 5874 cool rule , sometimes e mail txd able mkt 3com com \( h lewis \) disclaimer 3com takes responsibility opinions preceding
subject shaft drives wheelies johnny eng utsa edu \( johnny roberts \) distribution rec organization univ texas san antonio nntp posting host eng utsa edu lines 18 article 1993apr19 vax5 cit cornell edu xlyx vax5 cit cornell edu writes possible wheelie motorcycle shaft drive \? mike terry '82 virago yep ! one yesterday vision mention helped rotate bike \) wheelie result necessarily agressive acceleration intersection \( damn san antonio cagers tend really bad drivers \) however , done one , takes lot pre clutch dump rev action passing comment johnny eng utsa edu
bgardner bambam es com \( blaine gardner \) subject boom ! dog attack ! nntp posting host bambam organization evans sutherland computer corporation lines 26 article bong slac mac slac stanford edu bong slac stanford edu \( eric bong \) writes article cbnews cb att com , nak cbnews cb att com \( neil kirby \) wrote worked lean towards dog modulated throttle keep ankle ahead teeth seconds warm pipe firmly wedged shoulder turned face sideways see warm got mouth nose muzzle burned pipes bicycling technique 've employed use frame mounted tire pump fend dog attacks one brothers spent lot time practicing bizzare tricks bike said repelled dog attack picking rear bike dog side head rear wheel dog idea hit , fled quite rapidly , could jump garbage cans without ramp , n't think 'd care try one motorcycle telephone worked much better tire pump 's almost unfair , 've never seen dog could use phone \) blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com
mmaser engr uvic ca \( michael maser \) subject dogs nntp posting host uvic ca reply mmaser engr uvic ca organization university victoria , victoria , bc , canada lines 46 21 apr 1993 egreen east sun com \( ed green pixel cruncher \) writes article adobe com , cjackson adobe com \( curtis jackson \) writes writes sheesh , even trained attack dog match human , advantages agree 100 , chihuahua 's police military n't train use weapons easy average joe defeat barehanded may opposing thumbs , dog teeth effective named ir vision , better hearing better smell , likely faster reflexes 're motorcycle , 's paws roll blow n't even net access ed green c'mon ed \) things weak areas b \) 's ir idiot response dogs rods cones \( i'm sure \? \) humans allows eyes collect light lower light conditions consequently colour vision almost non existant mean , dogs built infra red vision , armed forces would strapping missiles instead paying quarter million ir guidance capabilities c \) dog net access ! ! mike maser dod squid rating 5 9235 pinetree rd sidney , b c , hopalonga yuka yuka excess 400 v8l wish list tridump , mucho , burley home \( 604 \) 656 6131 thumpison , work \( 604 \) 721 mmaser sirius uvic ca joke month gay say university victoria indian chief \? news rec motorcycles answer bum couple bucks \?
jeq lachman com \( jonathan e quist \) subject good reasons wave nntp posting host birdie i88 isc com organization lachman technology , incorporated , naperville , il lines 35 article mdennie beryllium mdennie xerox com \( matt dennie \) writes 1993apr22 linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org \( cookson \) writes ever notice little kid wave bikers \? reactions little boys seems enthusiastic wave \( also good see \) always wave see kid least noticed bike figure helps future sport n't forget little girls ! quite 2 year old daughter points says motorcycle every time sees one go past 've done work \( course , helps one books shows sir side car rig \) admit usually try without parental figure noticing i`m afraid kid get yelled anti societal types like us think better way convince kid someday , 'll ride one things \? genetic thing little boys \? even three four year old boys seem attracted motorcycles sort \( often dismay thier mothers \) , 's genetic thing little humans n't let touch hot pipes jonathan e quist jeq lachman com lachman technology , incorporated dod 094 , kotpp , kotcf '71 cl450 k4 gleep naperville , il 's nothing quite like pitter patter little feet , followed words daddy ! yay !
car377 cbnewsj cb att com \( charles rogers \) subject , xxxx , mean police officers read stuff \? organization summary ah , youth ! lines 61 article earth cs utexas edu , mcguire cs utexas edu \( tommy marcus mcguire \) writes article 1993apr23 dsd es com bgardner pebbles es com \( blaine gardner \) writes article earth cs utexas edu mcguire cs utexas edu \( tommy marcus mcguire \) writes hey , hell mean \? suck god given right express opinions , carry gun wear helmet , goddamn everything stand stupid 'd give 0 5 scale 10 analysis hints deleted aw , c'mon serious overreaction ought worth couple points , mention bit condemning everthing might ever say non sequitur guns helmets proper flourish nope flames interesting around , guns helmets wallpaper personally opinion two types good flames first trade , '' sense mention , heat certain surprise value done correctly , contend done , reasonably entertaining everyone rec easily amused blaine , elder , seen peaks \( depths , prefer \) sort incendiary backdrop , 0 5 purest act charity true flame posted mention anyone 's habitual velocity , friends , dinner , entertainment , says needs appropriate short weakness type flame actually easily taken far , point becomes trite boring unless , course , audience seen several thousand similarly attempts arena case , trite boring threshold tends drift away first set , , eventually \( \) type flame , seem glorifying , blah , blah , blah summary , blaine , score flame incorrect may flame , weaknesses point necessarily weaknesses , suggested corrections always useful applicable flame blaine 's internet port io close \( \) , position lecture , also probably could n't outrun tennis ball dog posterior , 'll bet motorcycle lean outside turning goes anyone looks like , oh please \( yawn \) , 're slipping scale successive attempt 's embarrassing watch say , 're waco , \? chuck rogers car377 torreys att com
rbp netcom com \( bob pasker \) subject kinder , gentler bmw mailing list organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 29 joe rider cactus org \( joe senner \) writes know 's already bmw mailing list , since 's r bike list \( limited r80 r100 bikes well believe \) list geared toward r100 r80 gs pd st riders , emphasizing road bikes , numerous people list bmw twins well , well usual contingent boxer talk welcome main list 50 subscribers also digest version 10 run 10 12 day , mostly technical little chatter flames subscriptions via e mail text message , send command subscribe bmw gs request sf ca us main list bmw gs digest request sf ca us digest version address used determine receive mail would shame split boxer riders different lists unless , course , existing list failed meet readers' needs bob pasker rbp netcom com
klinger ccu umanitoba ca \( jorg klinger \) subject uh , der , whassa deltabox \? nntp posting host ccu umanitoba ca organization university manitoba , winnipeg , canada lines 24 news dtc hp com jjb dtc hp com \( jim brewer \) writes article ccu umanitoba ca klinger ccu umanitoba ca \( jorg klinger \) writes beleive 's called frame nothing paint wo n't fix someone riding gsxr \? referring propensity dent spill course work art jorg klinger gsxr1100 new arch eng services lost horizons cr500 think umanitoba , man ca embalmer it175 anonymous squidonk
daved world std com \( dave dorfman \) subject st1100 ride keywords heavy organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 86 frank marvin contex com \( frank perdicaro \) writes well wrong sat st , feet , could think big put one foot heavy came mind quickly cindy back back \? hard tell seat three times large hawk seat bike seemed nearly control idling side road heavy , 91 mid 600 's dry , one major st 3000 rpm second gear , weight seemed even say monster test drive sold bike , lot 's bite anywhere 2500 gear bike 4 1 miles odometer , slippery new tires , pads abs tcs version \? cindy difficulty speed 3rd gear , 4th gear , along top gear thing less low rpm grunt hawk lane changes new experience big required move thing responds well though wallowing complaint behind fairing fairly quiet , helmet buffeting market fairing windshield 100 00 raises bubble 6 inches heads , hurts looks bike non trivial top gear car passing 85mph nearly effortless smooth , smooth , smooth sure v4 sound reminds , pleasant essence bike , move throttle accelerates gear anywhere anytime , frequently find dod min casual passing maneuver jump 133 caused less impressed brakes hill , reversing , twice reversing radius , decreasing radius turn real squeeze needed front binder function weight , brake , actually tested cycle world expert rider st stopped faster comparable models bmw , yamaha even extra weight gas section 133 tight , urban st works ok section , shows weight went clam shack must countersteer st every turn movement short classic wiggle forget ever leaning turn must every turn responds nicely half way , yanked cindy 's wrist , hold tight head check left , time find redline second gear gives good shove third fourth sees dod speed short shift top way 133 saw cops light traffic cross dod zone bike new well , 25 miles , ok tried high effort lane changes , wide sweeping turns time wick \? went buffeting pull us seat stayed comfortable wind steering , looked find indicated bad 2 touring faster 've ever gone , 'd hate buy bike short break period thread st cars edge concrete pad front heavy took way much effort cindy put thing center stand sure used side stand st would side within minute true , side stand well designed weight hold bike nicely dirt able easily get bike center stand , step stand instead pulling bike demo opinion \? heavy put diet smooth , comfortable , hardly notices dod speed 'd buy 3000 less list , like much bike keep looking 91 left available going 72 love mine n't found better value st 7500 remember get 3 years unlimited mileage warranty
svoboda rtsg mot com \( david svoboda \) subject , xxxx , mean police officers read stuff \? nntp posting host corolla18 organization motorola inc , cellular infrastructure group lines 19 article athena cs uga edu ahatcher athena cs uga edu \( allan hatcher \) writes well , goes lurking long time , 'll announce yes , i'm enemy enemy also happens ride arrest red 90 vfr feeling enemy without doubt dickhead cops least many dickhead bikers , even \( know \) certainly give benefit doubt biker welcome think speak entire dod \( hey guys , free ride georgia ! ! ! \) dave svoboda \( svoboda void rtsg mot com \) i'm getting tired 90 concours 1000 \( mmmmmmmmmm ! \) beating , dave 84 rz 350 \( ring ding \) \( woops ! \) never learn ama 583905 dod 0330 cog 939 \( chicago \) beth bruiser dixon
svoboda rtsg mot com \( david svoboda \) subject countersteering sans hands nntp posting host corolla18 organization motorola inc , cellular infrastructure group lines 35 article 1993apr22 cs cornell edu karr cs cornell edu \( david karr \) writes article quantum qnx com dagibbs quantum qnx com \( david gibbs \) writes yes , even steering hands something quite similar countersteering basically turn left , quick wiggle bike right first , causing lean occur left sounds suspiciously like black magic quick wiggle right mean handlebars turn toward right turning left , input steering mechanism makes happen absence old shove shove \? well , many bored bike tell , way steer sans hans push body side want lean say want turn left push body left , push something , thing push ground \( bike \) well , apple guy \( \? churchill \? \) says ground push right back , pushed left pushing ground right , ground pushed back toward left well , push wheels rear wheel n't care \( unless serious bearing problems \) \( except course spagthorpe , revolutionary countersteering contra shaft drive rear end \) , front wheel trail ground pushes front wheel toward left contact patch , trail cause wheel turn right hey , hands counter steering dave svoboda \( svoboda void rtsg mot com \) i'm getting tired 90 concours 1000 \( mmmmmmmmmm ! \) beating , dave 84 rz 350 \( ring ding \) \( woops ! \) never learn ama 583905 dod 0330 cog 939 \( chicago \) beth bruiser dixon
hesh cup hp com \( chris steinbroner \) subject kinder , gentler bmw mailing list reply chris steinbroner hesh cup hp com nntp posting host hesh cup hp com organization hp ux kernel lab , cupertino , ca x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 1 lines 21 sorry , take tx motorcycles news server rejected hesh bob pasker \( rbp netcom com \) wrote would shame split boxer riders different lists unless , course , existing list failed meet readers' needs presumed needed split gs list implication split , plain ol' bmw list would n't meet gs needs sake forcing split issue , changing charter renaming list bmw gs bmw \? would make everybody happy \? think 'd get better participation way joe would n't burden 286 \) hesh
array com \( ken murphy \) subject squids dealers distribution na organization array microsystems , colorado springs , co usa lines 25 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 kevin l stell \( cbnewsl cb att com \) wrote squids felt embarassed point motorcyclist felt eyes cages , witnessing display , glancing dealers lot two wheels needless say , friend felt little uncomfortable left express embarrassment owner \? n't blame embarrassed , would let feeling known behaviour sales staff apparent enjoyment behaviour cost sale sales turn frustration go ride peacefully , clear anger hope cop following home , open mind n't associate sound good enjoy btw , ca n't afford new bike \?
array com \( ken murphy \) subject death 2 stroke die \? organization array microsystems , colorado springs , co usa lines 39 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 zebee \( zebee wattle itd adelaide edu au \) wrote read far rev idle like \? water fuel acceptable \? sound like pilot circuit say lean clogged n't think water would cause problem like , \? apparently oil pump job , plenty oil seize \? see chance stuck \? two stroke \( substantial \) lubrication giving bike gas lean pilot , 's stuck oh , btw motor rebuilt left adelaide , done 1600 miles blew rebuilt seized time got , looked like seizure happened low mileage , still marks bore rebuild consisted total tear , new piston , rings , small end bearing , new gearbox bearings big end rod judged ok ideas folks \? mentioned aftermarket carb \? \( deleted text \) looks like \( \) 's problem zebee dod 605 n't italian motorcycle
organization washington university , st louis brad thone c09615bt wuvmd netnews wuvmd subject well blow yuk , yuk , yuk lines 16 never experienced wind severe physically precluded operation motorcycle 's matter deciding whether aggravation trouble 's worth course , depends entirely particular circumstances personal disposition skill n't done , dangerous takes getting used read ed 's list brad thone systems consultant systems service enterprises st louis , mo c09615bt wuvmd wustl edu c09615bt wuvmd bitnet
tcora pica army mil \( tom coradeschi \) subject ok , little hasty organization elect armts div , us army armt rde ctr , picatinny arsenal , nj lines 35 nntp posting host b329 gator 3 pica army mil speedy engr latech edu \( speedy mercer \) wrote randy megatek com \( randy davis \) writes speedy engr latech edu \( speedy mercer \) writes jnmoyne lbl gov \( jean noel moyne \) writes dwi stand \? thought dui driving influence , w stand \? driving intoxicated actually , beleive dwi normally means driving impaired rather intoxicated , least states 've lived changed louisiana girl went court case claiming stoned pot , intoxicated liquor ! one without necessarily impaired liquor drugs , enough sleep , total moron \) , impair someone etc i'm surprised got hook perhaps dwi lousiana confined liquor \? lets say dui ! ok varies state state operating vehicle greater given percentage alcohol drop , get back asking ed green \? tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet like herd performing elephants diarrhea massive , difficult redirect , awe inspiring , entertaining , source mind boggling amounts excrement least expect gene spafford , 1992
tcora pica army mil \( tom coradeschi \) subject traffic morons organization elect armts div , us army armt rde ctr , picatinny arsenal , nj lines 36 nntp posting host b329 gator 3 pica army mil ryan cousineau compdyn questor org \( ryan cousineau \) wrote nmm nielsmm imv aau dk \( niels mikkel michelsen \) nmm subject act front traffic jerks nmm day , raining cats dogs , therefor going nmm speed limit , nothing , bike guy bmw nmm driving 1 2 meters behind 7 800 meters next red light nmm calmly put bike leg , walked back car , rolled nmm window , told total idiot \( reason \) nmm right thing \? nmm truly nmm niels mikkel well , sounds great ! real bdi cager , 've found effective strategy flash brake light pumping pedal , obviously need bit free play brake pedal seems even brain dead idiot usually discern flashing red light directly front may mean something wrong sometimes yes , sometimes bdi cagers usually move back assholes move closer \( something testosterone stimulated behavior , think \) 's kinda like waving red flag bull , ca n't move let jerk , 's better nothing tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet like herd performing elephants diarrhea massive , difficult redirect , awe inspiring , entertaining , source mind boggling amounts excrement least expect gene spafford , 1992
daved world std com \( dave dorfman \) subject type spesifications \( cb , vfr , gt , etc \) organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 4 lets forget st sports touring honda
amd dcs ed ac uk \( alan duncan \) subject windy days reply amd dcs ed ac uk \( alan duncan \) organization department computer science , university edinburgh lines 25 \( robert castro \) rdc8 cunixf cc columbia edu writes decide windy ride \? get blown riding bike drive home 's windy ride 8 p check nearby trees wind strength see badly affected wind alan alan duncan dept computer science , ducati 900ss edinburgh university , scotland
vech ra msstate edu \( craig vechorik \) subject moa members , another letter read ! nntp posting host ra msstate edu organization mississippi state university lines 45 light last letter posted jeff crap going moa , \( folks took dissemination information received , bad mouthing \) thought would post one , came yesterday board member robert moa pres morse words , k guys \? april 4 , 1993 cecil king 's statement dear chick serious problem election president moa year cecil king 's statement \( appeared owners news \) 968 words , nearly twice many permitted laws pertinent part , rules state candidate 's biography position statement shall limited combined total 500 words shall cut word biography position statement exceeding length obviously task cecil 's statement cut required , would concluded approximately word sic second paragraph position statement result , cecil obtained view grossly unfair advantage candidates president taint election office makes mockery process would appreciate advising board immediately steps intend take rectify caricature fair election , private correspondence others , would appreciative call asshole remind letter 's recipient publication comment almost guaranteed consequences kind regards , remain , robert k , read , think , trust know cecil king , editor befor douglass , pres candidate let draw conclusions regards , craig vechorik bmw moa ambassador 9462 bmw vintage bulletin tech editor dod 843 real bmw 's two wheels politically correct statement
po cwru edu \( mark r \) subject insuring 1992 cbr600f2 organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 39 reply po cwru edu \( mark r \) nntp posting host slc12 ins cwru edu hey , i'm time getting company cover new bike details i'm single 23 riding clean record 'new' rider companies member msf ama yet 's '92 cbr600f2 got 150 miles got temp plates still one bitch ride get ideas \? take private email lower noise net po cwru edu good mail address need hear something soon keep road thanks advance , mark well weathered leather , hot metal oil , country air sunlight chrome , blur landscape , every nerve aware red straining limits machine man
bgardner pebbles es com \( blaine gardner \) subject maxima chain wax \( mail order \) nntp posting host 130 187 85 70 organization evans sutherland computer corporation lines 75 article 1993apr21 147 linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org \( cookson \) writes article 93apr20 211127 44984 acs ucalgary ca parr acs ucalgary ca \( charles parr \) writes bought , tried , truly , miracle spooge chain lubed , wheel clean , 1000km 'd try vfr , goddamn competition accessories n't mailed order yet hell , 's two weeks ordering pretty bizzare stuff like clear rf 200 face sheild , chain wax bastards 's worth , got three days chaparral 's ups ground ca ut , ymmv stuff seems work , n't attract like pj 1 blue gave acid test , full day 's worth breaking 's new paddle tires sand 's anything wet coated sand end day , chain looked pretty clean far mail order goes , chaparral stock \( tell 's stock , long take back order 's \) , usually get three days competition accessories always seems take week two deliver motorcycle accessory warehouse also takes week two , trying buy boots last week , n't think actually stock anything maw 30 cheaper chaparral tech 7 boots , monday hoping get end week , asked maw completely unreasonable question stock \? conversation went something like need know boots stock want pay visa mastercard \? want know stock well , computer n't show anything , 'd call find \? n't understand i'm saying \? call find stock uh , right \? yea , call back hour , ask phil hour later phil n't , mike says 'll check , call back half hour half hour later mike n't either , left note says 'll end month \( 3 weeks away \) screw , 30 bucks n't worth hassle called chaparral asked stock , \? probably , hard keep stock , 'll check size \? size 10 let 's see , yes ! size 10 , blue white , gray white , black 'll take blacks ! noon monday , arrived thursday morning , three days via ups ground like chaparral i'm completely maw , often lower prices , prepared wait oh , anyone 's market sand tires stuff , seems like good outfit , friendly , fast , tires wanted stock , cheaper chaparral blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com
infante acpub duke edu \( andrew infante \) subject opinion means organization duke university durham , n c lines 37 nntp posting host teer1 acpub duke edu article 1993apr20 bnr ca mbeaving bnr ca writes , take advice whining flames brains ca n't spell either edu \? \? hope 're student duke would wasting tuition beav mike beavington dod 9733 v65sabre mbeaving bnr ca employer idea i'm talking ! , complaining spelling i'm hurt i'm student i'm employee get money back bnr , huh \? hope 're permanent , 'd wasting benefits ! andy infante listen everybody says , fact remains '71 bmw r60 5 've got get thing dod 2426 joan sutherland opinions , dammit , nothing anyone else ! ! !
jjb dtc hp com \( jim brewer \) subject daytona nntp posting host dtc hp com organization hp design technology center , santa clara , ca lines 14 article rtaraz bigwpi wpi edu rtaraz bigwpi wpi edu \( ramin taraz \) writes well , watched daytona race tnn boy people saw yamaha lot faster kawi \? last stretch took left kawi dust kawi rider disappointed kawi ! n't lawson 's v h faster watch tape , russell major problems getting onto banking n't matter bike , lose drive , hosed two bikes almost identically fast check qualifying times
irwin cmptrc lonestar org \( irwin arnstein \) subject need advice riding someone pillion distribution na organization computrac inc , richardson tx keywords advice , pillion , help ! lines 14 article mjs zen sys uea ac uk mjs sys uea ac uk \( mike sixsmith \) writes i'm riding would far sooner pillion hanging bike , rather , find weight cause move , upset balance bike pillions see hold really good ones n't hang anything unless violent acceleration taking place n't ride sweetheart \? tuba \( irwin \) honk therefore computrac richardson , tx irwin cmptrc lonestar org dod 0826 \( r75 6 \)
scs8 cunixb cc columbia edu \( sebastian c sears \) subject two beemer questions \( r80gs \) nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply scs8 cunixb cc columbia edu \( sebastian c sears \) organization columbia university lines 37 article 1993apr23 organpipe uug arizona edu asphaug lpl arizona edu \( erik asphaug x2773 \) writes hello folks , i'm happy new r80gs range 238 miles 4 8 gallons 's 50 mpg ! ! surprisingly , bike real cruiser expecting something rough 's sweet backroad honey go pretty much anyplace 'd take mountain bike far shaft effect , 's torque effect crankshaft opinion rev sitting still \( moving \) bike twists bit maybe n't ride fast enough get shaft effect , opinion start another shaft effect discussion , twist feel revving sitting still due larger fly wheels bmw r bikes \( maybe k 's , dunno \) use whack throttle stop lights , 'll really rock bike \( right \) snip snip 2 \) run two lights , standard headlamp plus sidelamp mounted crash bar illumination 's excellent way , full beam coming level motor \( left side \) lamp beam linear get bright streak illumination left right , really picks periphery \( deer lurking , etc \) combined headlamp high see like day 've heard bmw alternators n't crank much need shut sidelamp i'm around dirt low rpm \? please post come conclusion thinking putting light cylinder guard r100s , wondering whether going switch lights every time 5 , 000 rpm \) '90 kawi 550 zephyr \( erik asphaug \) wanna sit buy drink someday temple dog sea bass sears scs8 cunixb cc columbia edu dod 516 stanley , id '79 yamaha xs750f '77 bmw r100s '85 toyota 4runner nyc , ny
tony morgan demon co uk \( tony kidson \) subject maxima chain wax distribution world organization modem palace reply tony morgan demon co uk x newsreader simple news 1 90 \( ka9q dis 1 21 \) lines 31 article itu news ysu edu ak296 yfn ysu edu writes previous article , txd esd 3com com \( tom dietrich \) says parr acs ucalgary ca \( charles parr \) writes bought , tried , truly , miracle spooge chain lubed , wheel clean , 1000km seen miracle maxima chain wax lube stay 's supposed , swear ride faster yes , lube chain , makes better rider attractive members opposing sex smarter works really well tony tony kidson pgp 2 2 key request voice 44 81 466 5127 morgan towers , cat move e mail \( order \) morgan road , 've take top tony morgan demon co uk bromley , machine tny cix compulink co uk england br1 3qe honda st1100 dod 0801 100024 301 compuserve com
speedy engr latech edu \( speedy mercer \) subject boom ! dog attack ! organization louisiana tech university lines 18 nntp posting host bhm116e spc engr latech edu article 1993apr23 dsd es com bgardner bambam es com \( blaine gardner \) writes article bong slac mac slac stanford edu bong slac stanford edu \( eric bong \) writes article cbnews cb att com , nak cbnews cb att com \( neil kirby \) wrote bicycling technique 've employed use frame mounted tire pump fend dog attacks bayonet factory swedish mounted handlebars 10 blade long arms quite well thank dod 8177 technician \( dr speed \) student stolen taglines hey ! go \? n't think naahh
speedy engr latech edu \( speedy mercer \) subject wanted police officers answer posting organization louisiana tech university lines 26 nntp posting host bhm116e spc engr latech edu article csundh30 ursa csundh30 ursa calvin edu \( charles sundheim \) writes viking iastate edu \( dan sorenson \) writes heh attitude stopped \? speaking guy recieved verbal warning 55 , laugh , back riding purple water buffalo , jumped intersection front cop waiting light ! side street hidden buy building corner n't see till airborne middle intersection parked , helment liscence turned corner ass let go ! first admit squidly thing , jumping intersection like cop nailed find polite , honest , let get away lot stuff p shock mounts folded next day guess deserved ! dod 8177 technician \( dr speed \) student stolen taglines hey ! go \? n't think naahh
speedy engr latech edu \( speedy mercer \) subject riders welcome join group organization louisiana tech university lines 18 nntp posting host bhm116e spc engr latech edu article 1993apr23 pacbell com srv pacbell com \( jon costa \) writes riding group , generally speaking , people mind another rider tags along \? distinct feeling may welcome tagged along group last weekend yer welcome ride friends time introduce self earliest opportunity say mind rid guys \? dod 8177 technician \( dr speed \) student stolen taglines hey ! go \? n't think naahh
joe rider cactus org \( joe senner \) subject bmw heated grips reply joe rider cactus org distribution world organization lines 23 bergman panix com \( mark bergman \) writes bmw heated comfortable \? transmit lot vibration \? compare stock grips \? foam grips \? n't grips , looked getting 's understanding grips standard european style grips coming standard 93 bikes \( , , etc \) 's also understanding heater resides inside bar anything would suspect would reduce vibration providing bar end mass n't see would n't work old style foam grips aside fact might cause foam deteriorate something hard belive considering fine 100 degree texas summers 'course , n't actually save flames joe senner joe rider cactus org bmw mailing list bmw rider cactus org austin area ride mailing list ride rider cactus org
speedy engr latech edu \( speedy mercer \) subject windy days organization louisiana tech university lines 15 nntp posting host bhm116e spc engr latech edu article dcs ed ac uk amd dcs ed ac uk \( alan duncan \) writes \( robert castro \) rdc8 cunixf cc columbia edu writes decide windy ride \? handlebar mounted windy days fun windy hell week plays hell steering oh , still ride bitch lot ! dod 8177 technician \( dr speed \) student stolen taglines hey ! go \? n't think naahh
cdw2t dayhoff med virginia edu \( dances federal rangers \) subject ain't ! organization university virginia lines 20 article speedy 156 engr latech edu speedy engr latech edu \( speedy mercer \) writes confused \( like that's surprise ! \) , someone asked copy faq via e mail , wondering proper responce \? post email request , proper attributes , course , newsgroup request becomes matter rec moto public record warrants ceremonial gang glad help , ride safe , cliff weston dod '92 seca ii \( tem \) bike excellent condition 've done work glen crash stone
sturges oasys dt navy mil \( richard sturges \) subject mail order response time reply sturges oasys dt navy mil \( richard sturges \) organization carderock division , nswc , bethesda , md lines 11 ordered many times competition get 2 3 day delivery backorder something , sent card say would two weeks came 10 days always satisfied , ca life rich sturges \( h \) 703 536 4443 nswc carderock division \( w \) 301 227 1670 speak one else , listen
speedy engr latech edu \( speedy mercer \) subject bmw heated grips organization louisiana tech university lines 29 distribution world nntp posting host bhm116e spc engr latech edu article 1113 rider uucp joe rider cactus org \( joe senner \) writes bergman panix com \( mark bergman \) writes bmw heated comfortable \? transmit lot vibration \? compare stock grips \? foam grips \? n't grips , looked getting 's understanding grips standard european style grips coming standard 93 bikes \( , , etc \) 's also understanding heater resides inside bar anything would suspect would reduce vibration providing bar end mass n't see would n't work old style foam grips aside fact might cause foam deteriorate something hard belive considering fine 100 degree texas summers someone sold heated motorcycle grips via mail order aftermarket replacement grips heating elements grip wires ran outside bars , grips switch battery cycle magazine tested years ago liked dunno still made might check racers dod 8177 technician \( dr speed \) student
organization washington university , st louis brad thone c09615bt wuvmd netnews wuvmd subject well blow yuk , yuk , yuk lines 14 long time back \( months \) , think similar question asked suggestion , addition ed 's list , put knee away bike tried , seems help , actually brad thone systems consultant systems service enterprises st louis , mo c09615bt wuvmd wustl edu c09615bt wuvmd bitnet
paulb harley tti com \( paul blumstein \) subject best times , worst times nntp posting host harley tti com organization black belt motorcyclists association lines 20 article gap caltech edu ridgway cco caltech edu \( alex ridgway \) writes paulb harley tti com \( paul blumstein \) writes problem turned screw inside mikuni carb keep hearing one keep screws tight bike , never thought screws inside carb least roadside fixable way hardly time gee , always figured loose screws rider likely cause problems check time \? true however , screws loose rider quite time , taken account russian fun 5 6 times paul blumstein , paulb harley tti com , dod 36 , abate , ama , hog , doh 2 kd6laa , marc , arrl , platypus 240 , qrp arpci , naswa , lwca , rcma \( cala905 \) transaction technology , inc , santa monica , ca
tony morgan demon co uk \( tony kidson \) subject help adjust tappits distribution world organization modem palace reply tony morgan demon co uk x newsreader simple news 1 90 \( ka9q dis 1 21 \) lines 20 article jcn lactose rice edu jcn rice edu writes speaking shims , would clearance valves get smaller , e need use thinner shim \? valve seat wear \? tony tony kidson pgp 2 2 key request voice 44 81 466 5127 morgan towers , cat move e mail \( order \) morgan road , 've take top tony morgan demon co uk bromley , machine tny cix compulink co uk england br1 3qe honda st1100 dod 0801 100024 301 compuserve com
bgardner pebbles es com \( blaine gardner \) subject fj1100 1200 owners tankbag suggestions wanted nntp posting host 130 187 85 70 organization evans sutherland computer corporation lines 25 article 1993apr21 mnemosyne cs du edu nyx cs du edu \( mark wallace \) writes bgardner pebbles es com \( blaine gardner \) writes article 1993apr20 195116 ncsu edu martenm chess ncsu edu \( mar marten \) writes looking new tank bag , wondered , follow fj1100 1200 owners , could make suggestions , fj 's large , flat gas tank , 'd imagine almost anything would work personally , i'm quite happy eclipse standard tank bag think thing watch number attachment straps come 3 4 , 4 strap tankbag rear tank narrow fit optimal good point , 'd overlooked eclipse 3 point mount , 1 rear 2 front , 's stable fj seen mount sides tank , would real problem fj blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com
dagibbs quantum qnx com \( david gibbs \) subject need advice riding someone pillion organization qnx software systems , ltd keywords advice , pillion , help ! lines 24 article mjs zen sys uea ac uk mjs sys uea ac uk \( mike sixsmith \) writes lemay netcom com \( laura lemay \) writes lotsa stuff deleted switch hands stretch shoulders , sure squeeze thighs 're rider knows 're still \) guard rail n't safe holding onto rider hmmmm everyone side pond seem want pillions hang rider rather \? i'm guy pillions female also , reasons , like idea passengers weight , comfortable position passenger , stable configuration come well holding grab rail great idea braking , n't want pillion slide forward , otherwise n't find works well david \( dagibbs qnx com \)
lynn pacesetter com \( lynn e hall \) subject story respect nntp posting host organization siemens pacesetter , inc lines 48 article 1993apr19 pacesetter com lynn pacesetter com \( lynn e hall \) writes got back 11th annual southern california harley dealers association run colorado river city , nevada people ca n't enjoy without assholes \? want treated respect , need treat others , property , towns respect several years ago , annual fly experimental aircraft association \( \) near , wisconsin although approximately 100 , 000 people attendance , piece litter anywhere everyone considerate enough place trash belonged 's problem fun , raising hell , etc consideration respect others critical need work , nudity , fine loud noise , fine party night , fine right place time please , let 's trample 's rights bitch n't treat us like gods michael menard know , n't even going respond typical anti party attitude message trash everywhere reason \? enough massive crowd oatman n't prepared vast number people showed btw michael , oatman right place time 's called run ! maybe n't read comment loved us i'm talking merchants merchants n't want us shops closed maybe mentioned left trash picked \( aluminum sells \) crew assigned task think bottom line want us back \? \? \? ! ! ! ! went oatman typical harley run 's innocent fun since enjoy typical harley fun runs eyes makes asshole 've already admitted i'm asshole many times net friends assholes \( lyrics new song \? \) , want dime call someone cares \? appears difference opinion maybe look big picture pass judgement others 11th annual tell something lynn hall nos bros
paulb harley tti com \( paul blumstein \) subject dogs nntp posting host harley tti com organization black belt motorcyclists association lines 27 article 93apr20 193958 30419 acs ucalgary ca parr acs ucalgary ca \( charles parr \) writes article c5pntm 8co cbnewsj cb att com car377 cbnewsj cb att com \( charles rogers \) writes tactic depends effectiveness dog 's conformance psychological norm may actually apply particular dog 've tried success , wo n't work charlie manson dog one 's really , really stupid large irish setter taught yard \( apparently territory \) one day i'm sure playing game game probably kill angry neighbor dispense terrible punishment , dog weighs 150lb maybe , max \? ca n't handle \? , presume , thumbs \? grapple tear 's head ! sheesh , even trained attack dog match human , advantages look , worried attacked dog , carry spot remover \) russian fun 5 6 times paul blumstein , paulb harley tti com , dod 36 , abate , ama , hog , doh 2 kd6laa , marc , arrl , platypus 240 , qrp arpci , naswa , lwca , rcma \( cala905 \) transaction technology , inc , santa monica , ca
infante acpub duke edu \( andrew infante \) subject opinion means organization duke university durham , n c lines 27 nntp posting host teer1 acpub duke edu article 1993apr20 rtsg mot com svoboda rtsg mot com \( david svoboda \) writes view , drunk driving carry mandatory prison sentence one traffic offenses public funds issue , genuine safety issue bring subject rec moto , admitting caught dwi , looking sympathy consequences , n't expect people respond warm wishes dave svoboda \( svoboda void rtsg mot com \) i'm getting tired 90 concours 1000 \( mmmmmmmmmm ! \) beating , dave 84 rz 350 \( ring ding \) \( woops ! \) never learn ama 583905 dod 0330 cog 939 \( chicago \) beth bruiser dixon able drive year , close enough jail , btw , hell ask sympathy asked insurance , life fwiw , everyone honest group , 'd others besides read dwi andy infante listen everybody says , fact remains '71 bmw r60 5 've got get thing dod 2426 joan sutherland opinions , dammit , nothing anyone else ! ! !
joe rider cactus org \( joe senner \) subject kinder , gentler bmw mailing list reply joe rider cactus org distribution world organization lines 27 rbp netcom com \( bob pasker \) writes would shame split boxer riders different lists unless , course , existing list failed meet readers' needs nowhere see mention k bikes , , made bmw , welcome list fact , go way say boxer talk welcome list appears boxers 's great list bmw 's , without restrictions like considering subscription count went 29 within 18 hours initial post list \( made around 10 00pm went bed \) , 'd say need bmw list opposed gs boxer list motivation setting bmw list came earlier post announcing boxer list n't fit needs ok , 've pissed 's list let 's get back regular net noise read respective lists joe senner joe rider cactus org bmw mailing list bmw rider cactus org austin area ride mailing list ride rider cactus org
arturo informix com \( arturo vega \) subject bonding caged cop \? distribution rec motorcycles , ba motorcycles organization informix software , inc lines 22 oracle uucp \( kelley \) writes waving policeman , happy policeman , nice policeman anyone else experienced phenomenon , somehow one blessed cop 's good mood \? \( insert mild sarcasm \) dod 875 '92 seca ii well , however , would n't trade times 've h h h h close friend pulled , shouted , finally let verbal warning exchange waves ! \) like i'm serious later , art yes sir sir sorry sir thank sir ! arturo informix com
bgardner pebbles es com \( blaine gardner \) subject moa members , another letter read ! nntp posting host 130 187 85 70 organization evans sutherland computer corporation lines 8 anyone noticed happened since chris perez gifted membership \? anyone rec motorcycles beemer club \? know might get confused k , maybe 's connection \? blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com
rbp netcom com \( bob pasker \) subject kinder , gentler bmw mailing list organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 45 hesh cup hp com \( chris steinbroner \) writes sorry , take tx motorcycles news server rejected hesh bob pasker \( rbp netcom com \) wrote would shame split boxer riders different lists unless , course , existing list failed meet readers' needs presumed needed split gs list implication split , plain ol' bmw list would n't meet gs needs good point list actually started extension gs v fj shootout list , got name since inception , however , boxer interested folks joined conversation always geared gs pd st specific topics sake forcing split issue , changing charter renaming list bmw gs bmw \? would make everybody happy \? raised expand expand question question list , mixed feelings list always open anyone non bouncing line general agreement boxer related stuff appropriate almost subscribers r80 r100 gs st pd bikes , although r , rt rs owners also point , main interest list preserve peace time providing wide access possible list fairly technical , \? , kind get \? kinds questions yet non bmw bashing , k bike bashing , bmw mfg 'd 1962 piece shit bashing posts , consent governed , proscribed simple name change would make significant difference net boxer owners , going stand way progress , hesh , let turn question around \( anyone else \) joined list felt boxer excluded \? bob pasker rbp netcom com
jeq lachman com \( jonathan e quist \) subject dogs vs bikes nntp posting host birdie i88 isc com organization lachman technology , incorporated , naperville , il lines 32 article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu \( andrew infante \) writes article ccu umanitoba ca klinger ccu umanitoba ca \( jorg klinger \) writes large ol' dog made real effort trying train still n't feed much seriously first would like break 'll worry chasing things ca n't 've obviously waited long , putting much effort 80 lb dog \( always \) used fart time making notice \( course smell n't bother ! \) , thence kicking outside \( somewhat literally \) , came realize shoudl n't \( least around \) sort like scene 10 , minister 's study , secretary lets one fly , startled dog runs room minister explains , every time mrs breaks wind , beat dog jonathan e quist jeq lachman com lachman technology , incorporated dod 094 , kotpp , kotcf '71 cl450 k4 gleep naperville , il 's nothing quite like pitter patter little feet , followed words daddy ! yay !
jeq lachman com \( jonathan e quist \) subject looking movies w bikes nntp posting host birdie i88 isc com organization lachman technology , incorporated , naperville , il lines 19 article 1993apr21 virginia edu virginia edu \( christopher douglas \) writes 's also billy jack , wild one , bandit \( jerry reed runs truck motorcycle gangs bikes \) , video tape documentary hell 's angels found rental store n't forget robert blake glide blue \( else get see full dress harley playing dirt bikes \? \) 're going count bandit , darn well better include pee wee 's big adventure jonathan e quist jeq lachman com lachman technology , incorporated dod 094 , kotpp , kotcf '71 cl450 k4 gleep naperville , il 's nothing quite like pitter patter little feet , followed words daddy ! yay !
ak296 yfn ysu edu \( john r daker \) subject maxima chain wax organization st elizabeth hospital , youngstown , oh lines 20 reply ak296 yfn ysu edu \( john r daker \) nntp posting host yfn ysu edu previous article , txd esd 3com com \( tom dietrich \) says parr acs ucalgary ca \( charles parr \) writes bought , tried , truly , miracle spooge chain lubed , wheel clean , 1000km seen miracle maxima chain wax lube stay 's supposed , swear ride faster yes , lube chain , makes better rider attractive members opposing sex smarter dod 650 darkman significant problems face cannot solved level thinking created albert einstein eternal champion
ak296 yfn ysu edu \( john r daker \) subject squid \? \( riceburner respect \) organization st elizabeth hospital , youngstown , oh lines 13 reply ak296 yfn ysu edu \( john r daker \) nntp posting host yfn ysu edu previous article , epcot spdc ti com \( mike \) says poser squid guy saw yesterday way home similar attire sans jacket \( april texas ya know \) , riding amazing thought california got april dod 650 darkman significant problems face cannot solved level thinking created albert einstein eternal champion
acd ucar edu \( chuck smythe \) subject shaft drives wheelies organization center atmospheric research , atmospheric chemistry lines 8 possible wheelie motorcycle shaft drive \? owner sabre \( \) , answer personal experience ! chuck smythe \( dod 50 \)
bethd netcom com \( beth dixon \) subject shaft drives wheelies organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) distribution rec lines 45 article 1993apr21 newbridge com bradw newbridge com \( brad warkentin \) writes article 698 netcom com bethd netcom com \( beth dixon \) writes beth one true beth dixon bethd netcom com 1979 yamaha sr500 spike garage rat fssnoc 1843 wait one cotton picking minute dod rule 417 1 2 section 6 paragraph 3 clearly indicates multiple people ca n't lay claim bike obvious ploy artificially increase size stable question day spike owned lady true class breeding \( definition woman rides \) \) tom head \? \? \? spike owned tom went 1 2 's purchase price split costs needed parts , registration , etc names pink slip also note lay claim connie ol sport \( like said , obviously lady discriminating taste \) covered insurance ride harley 'd give go could work clutch barely get clutch lever move using hands standing next bike ol' sport distinctive bike concours favorite mine 've easy 4000 miles bike last year unfortunately , feet good 10 ground i'm way could take ride pilot rather pillion could fit concours , 'd buy one imho , best sport made i'm upset settle ducati 750ss touring bike , though \) bored minds know , know beth beth one true beth dixon bethd netcom com 1981 yamaha sr250 excitable girl dod 0384 1979 yamaha sr500 spike garage rat fssnoc 1843 1992 ducati 750ss ama 631903 1963 ducati 250 monza restoration project 1kqspt 1 8 keep handle anything side deranged zz top
jlevine rd hydro ca \( jody levine \) subject back breaker , near hit ! ! organization ontario hydro research division lines 23 article 1r941o 3tu menudo uh edu inde7wv rosie uh edu writes another list one felt helpless sitting light 1 2 car lengths behind car , wise suddenly hear screeching tires dart eyes mirrors realize 's flying right behind , panic pop clutch stall bike luckily guy stops foot behind rear wheel understand theoretically stop far behind car really actuality avoid incident \? suggestions \? 've ever done automatic sitting olds , winter , light , heard screeching behind managed dart left turn lane sliding jetta wound half half parked car beside 've never occasion bike , imagine would even easier , could slip beside car front giving mirrors light give time get clutch smoothly notice trouble , instead waiting screeching 've bike like jody levine dod 275 kv got pf jody p levine hydro ca ride toronto , ontario , canada
jld hpfcso fc hp com \( jeff deeney \) subject ok , little hasty organization hewlett packard , fort collins , co , usa lines 11 rec motorcycles , egreen east sun com \( ed green pixel cruncher \) writes driving allows prosecution drivers influence variety drugs like non cold medicines \? 1 2 \) jeff deeney dod '88 jld fc hp com ama '81 sound fresh rain run roof reminded sound urine filthy texaco jack handey
hpfcso fc hp com \( victor johnson \) subject well blow yuk , yuk , yuk organization dances hawks lines 16 rec motorcycles , rdc8 cunixf cc columbia edu \( robert castro \) writes decide windy ride \? bugs side helmet instead semis side ditch ca n't see road rolling past airborne sand gravel paint job happening middle wonderful well , 87 mph cheers ,
ray unisql uucp \( ray shea \) subject back breaker , near hit ! ! organization unisql , inc , austin , texas , usa lines 34 article 1r941o 3tu menudo uh edu inde7wv rosie uh edu writes understand theoretically stop far behind car really actuality avoid incident \? suggestions \? looking mirror , would seen guy coming heard screeching tires 're stopped light 1 \) stop 're got space front , quick easy escape route \( lanes , , driveway , somewhere \) someone decides want plow 2 \) keep bike first clutch least couple cars stopped behind , n't waste second n't trying get gear need move 3 \) watch mirrors situation , hazards trying avoid coming behind \( msf geek speak \) n't 're moving 're less likely panic stall bike 've got time prepare guy 's tires lock behind \( still get scared , 's feeling quickly rising dread sudden jolt \) ray shea unisql , inc unisql ! ray cs utexas edu dod 0372 team twinkie '88 hawk gt
wallich ncd com \( ken wallich \) subject bmw heated grips organization organized , would reading news \? lines 26 nntp posting host wild abandon , prange nickel ucs indiana edu \( henry prange \) offers grips gs wonderful thing winter problem summer vibration \? bmw 's n't everyone knows 'd agree henry grips really nice winter , n't different 'normal' grips summer complaint setting might well complained every reviewer , official unofficial , 's ever talked grips setting often high use lightweight summer gloves things get bit , since n't produce noticable effect , end turning grips keep temperature right generally n't problem wearing thicker winter gloves asked dealer could fix , received pat back , sincere apologies poor design \( actually , told worked like suppose \) vibration \? 's \? ride bmw twin barely tell engine fired time , smoother silk sheets ken wallich wallich ncd com ken wallich com al org decwrl ! vixie ! amber ! ken
egreen east sun com \( ed green pixel cruncher \) subject put helmet organization sun microsystems , rtp , nc lines 25 distribution world reply egreen east sun com nntp posting host laser east sun com article uupcb compdyn questor org , ryan cousineau compdyn questor org \( ryan cousineau \) writes another good place helmet mirror \( ! \) kid typical standard bike fairly average mirrors screw handlebars , helmet fit mirror fairly stable careful weight helmet resting mirror depress foam liner helmet kind foam bounces back , like foam rubber purpose life absorb energy impact compressed noggin mirror compresses , much less energy absorbing capacity left noggin crash found right handlebar good spot , hang facing , balanced across grip brake lever weight helmet n't compress foam open face helmet ed green , former ninjaite drinking last night biker , ed green east sun com showed picture said , dod 0111 \( 919 \) 460 8302 go , get know , 'll like ! \( grateful dead \) seemed like least could
egreen east sun com \( ed green pixel cruncher \) subject point helmet law point organization sun microsystems , rtp , nc lines 37 distribution world reply egreen east sun com nntp posting host laser east sun com article 5967 prcrs prc com , terry prcrs prc com \( terry cunningham \) writes know law , either books proposed , bans motorcycles place want go really see problem banning places n't want go \? heard , discussed non motorcycling persons , read popular movement , either country whole , states , motorcycles talk somebody insurance industry , particularly drinks talk mom \( booze required \) \) one thing , public misinformed state , others posting correct situation \? ever heard dod \? \) ever since hit teens found terrible wrongs right , attitudes blah , blah , blah fortunately , grew ! \) nah , became long little quarter acre safe , get little tax deduction , act government , direct obvious way , little day day life , n't give shit ed green , former ninjaite drinking last night biker , ed green east sun com showed picture said , dod 0111 \( 919 \) 460 8302 go , get know , 'll like ! \( grateful dead \) seemed like least could
egreen east sun com \( ed green pixel cruncher \) subject live free , quietly , die organization sun microsystems , rtp , nc lines 19 distribution world reply egreen east sun com nntp posting host laser east sun com article agate berkeley edu , robinson cogsci berkeley edu \( michael robinson \) writes article sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes article cbnewsm cb att com , shz mare att com \( keeper 'tude \) writes n't mean former motorcyclist \? ed green , former ninjaite drinking last night biker , i'm sure 's perfectly reasonable explanation yep ed green , former ninjaite drinking last night biker , ed green east sun com showed picture said , dod 0111 \( 919 \) 460 8302 go , get know , 'll like ! \( grateful dead \) seemed like least could
egreen east sun com \( ed green pixel cruncher \) subject countersteering faq please post organization sun microsystems , rtp , nc lines 23 distribution world reply egreen east sun com nntp posting host laser east sun com article synoptics com , noemi synoptics com \( noemi berry \) writes guess turn horse look want go ! plan turns jumps best riders give refined , smooth inputs beast lots maintenance leather looks cool sound familiar \? black ones look better none truely america , although finest produced gear expensive , never seem enough volvos hit idiots intentionally rear front half ground look cool n't ride rain dangerous ice loud ones annoying , much chrome looks dumb yep , sounds familiar ! ed green , former ninjaite drinking last night biker , ed green east sun com showed picture said , dod 0111 \( 919 \) 460 8302 go , get know , 'll like ! \( grateful dead \) seemed like least could
egreen east sun com \( ed green pixel cruncher \) subject countersteering faq please post organization sun microsystems , rtp , nc lines 67 distribution world reply egreen east sun com nntp posting host laser east sun com article zen sys uea ac uk , mjs sys uea ac uk \( mike sixsmith \) writes 1 us argue gyroscopes , etc , throughly understand technique countersteering including ones think countersteer way corner \? \? well way decreasing radius corner , anyway really thing disagree maybe agree disagree \? \? ok \( i'm right ! \) \) official line \( though doubts \) front brake applied first , followed rear brake , idea avoid locking rear weight transfer takes place 's official line taught rider education classes refering , also n't teach countersteering , question quality classes official line msf curricula described maximum braking achieved applying brakes equally , weight distribution nominally even tires equal normal forces , rear prevent locking , increasing braking front , traction available front due increased normal force due weight shift official line taught seems ineffective face applying rear brake front taking advantage traction available rear time 0 , available braking power using front time 0 saying , brake tire begins slide next useless advice newbie go slide tire find ! also gives zero information develop braking technique changes braking corresponding weight shift develop n't slide tyre , way knowing whether 've achieved maximum braking i'm suggesting always aim brake hard possibly want find limits machine , go beyond necessarily true tire indicates impending lockup \( surfaces \) , serves good guide newbies indicate maximum braking agree totally locking front occasionally makes one better rider , best saved experienced rider , unless one bikes like code used use case , maximum braking , \( suggested \) aim keep wheels point sliding , 'll exactly suggest ! ! true , point view best teach riding skills \( discussion started \) , keep wheels point sliding nearly useless information need teach technique , least strategy , achieve ed green , former ninjaite drinking last night biker , ed green east sun com showed picture said , dod 0111 \( 919 \) 460 8302 go , get know , 'll like ! \( grateful dead \) seemed like least could
egreen east sun com \( ed green pixel cruncher \) subject countersteering sans hands organization sun microsystems , rtp , nc lines 14 distribution world reply egreen east sun com nntp posting host laser east sun com article bdrc bd com , clarke bdrc bd com \( richard clarke \) writes steer hands n't bars \? \( open budweiser left hand , camel cigarette right , feet allowed \) lean , bike turns , countersteering \? countersteering method leaning bike another method leaning leaned , bike turns ed green , former ninjaite drinking last night biker , ed green east sun com showed picture said , dod 0111 \( 919 \) 460 8302 go , get know , 'll like ! \( grateful dead \) seemed like least could
laszlo eclipse cs colorado edu \( laszlo nemeth \) subject shaft drives wheelies nntp posting host eclipse cs colorado edu organization university colorado boulder , pizza disposal group lines 23 article wrs 4180 wslack uucp , wrs wslack uucp \( bill slack \) writes various posts shafties ca n't wheelies mike imposible due shaft effect centripital effects rotating shaft counteract tendency front wheel lift ground good point john buddy mine told thing bmw r80gs dumped clutch 5 , \( hey , ito nly revved 7 \) know \? right ! uh , folks , shaft n't diddleysquatpoop get front wheel ground 5 , ferchrissake ! may able bounce front actually wheelie see shaft effect rear loads front shaft bike accelerate starts scraping corner laz
egreen east sun com \( ed green pixel cruncher \) subject ok , little hasty organization sun microsystems , rtp , nc lines 14 distribution world reply egreen east sun com nntp posting host laser east sun com article 190493111630 moustic lbl gov , jnmoyne lbl gov \( jean noel moyne \) writes dwi stand \? thought dui driving influence , w stand \? driving allows prosecution drivers influence variety drugs ed green , former ninjaite drinking last night biker , ed green east sun com showed picture said , dod 0111 \( 919 \) 460 8302 go , get know , 'll like ! \( grateful dead \) seemed like least could
egreen east sun com \( ed green pixel cruncher \) subject ok , little hasty organization sun microsystems , rtp , nc lines 30 distribution world reply egreen east sun com nntp posting host laser east sun com article news duke edu , infante acpub duke edu \( andrew infante \) writes also , nc recently \( last years \) decided due fact constantly people road drunk driving , raise awareness making stricter laws , , believe nc toughest laws dwi \( necessarily increasing amount awareness , kills highways meaning 's made difference sentencing \) automatic license year i'm sure 's law around , nc absolutely sense humor respect driving laws , anyway think put jail sell first child slavery passing school bus bill nc house lower level 1 08 faces stiff opposition senate recently , highway patrol took opposition senators gave shots , hit 07 , put course dodging cones failed , probably change votes result bizarre reason , nc state veto power legislation coming state congress , opinion matter moot ed green , former ninjaite drinking last night biker , ed green east sun com showed picture said , dod 0111 \( 919 \) 460 8302 go , get know , 'll like ! \( grateful dead \) seemed like least could
dsc3jfs nmrdc1 nmrdc nnmc navy mil \( jim small \) subject story keywords party ! ! ! ! organization naval medical research development command lines 16 article 1993apr19 pacesetter com lynn pacesetter com \( lynn e hall \) writes got back 11th annual southern california harley dealers association run colorado river city , nevada aka run went say much trash hate 3b2 3b2 bite
ramarren apple com \( godfrey digiorgi \) subject need advice riding someone pillion distribution na organization apple computer lines 33 've never ridden pillion much recently excellent experience dave edmondson pilot london found upset bike much less rode pilot , , looked shoulder anticipated hold hard braking acceleration tried always look inside shoulder corners move little possible , leaving dave manage bike normally would bike luggage hard acceleration quite feeling spit back hard fight similarly , held grab handles tightly dave needed brake mash pulp \( i'm lot bigger \) reaching around pushing tank seemed like would awkward make even harder manage rare occasions carry passenger , absolutely refuse carry anyone properly riding 's helmet , jacket , gloves , stout pants shoes boots minimum 's responsibility provide gear , 's responsibility require want ride agree earlier poster 've much experience carrying particular passenger especially 've carried many passengers , take gentler rides duration head difficult road like mines mt hamilton 's nasty place find trouble godfrey digiorgi ramarren apple com dod ama rule 1 never sell ducati street finds rule 2 always obey rule 1 uses things wg ducati toyota nikon sony apple telebit
subject type spesifications \( cb , vfr , gt , etc \) stubbs hawk cs ukans edu \( jerry stubbs \) organization university kansas computer science dept lines 13 article c5sk1d c1p srgenprp sr hp com frankb sad hp com \( frank ball \) writes vidar olaf \( dhhalden \) wrote somebody tell letter spesifications motorcycle models really mean cb street bike parallel twin inline 4 cylinder engine frank ball 1ur frankb sad hp com \( 707 \) 794 4168 work , hmmm first bike , , single
carter ecf toronto edu \( carter edward \) subject squids dealers organization university toronto , engineering computing facility distribution na lines 28 article cbnewsl cb att com cbnewsl cb att com \( kevin l stell \) writes stuff chopped part concerned hg shop personel busy customers went back , said hg members fired rides obligatory 600 beasts point , one decided see much rubber katana 600 could deposit drive squids , thought appalled salesdroids manager condoned behavior , , point betting long could keep pull rode onto busy street around rush hour girl riding pillion another bike , seemed rather hormonal display , urged pilot quickly catch others followed , making sure could heard well felt um , gotta understand salesdroids call look way burn lotsa tire make lotsa money i'm sure knew stupid hg would seriously stop burning seasons worth tire \? \? squids probably would buy good low profile tire anyhow yep sure sneaky bastards ! \) regards , ted university toronto computer engineering '89 i'm taking ride best friend dod
carter ecf toronto edu \( carter edward \) subject good reasons wave organization university toronto , engineering computing facility lines 19 jlevine rd hydro ca \( jody levine \) writes anyone , driving cage , ever waved bikers \? get urge , 've never actually done oh yeah , time nice spring summer day , roll window drive around looking bikes bike motors opposite direction , stick arm arm feels like million bucks i'm h thing problem always right hand lane hafta roll window back oh well , think appreciate thought regards , ted university toronto computer engineering '89 i'm taking ride best friend dod
psuvm psu edu subject first bike honda ascot \? organization penn state university lines 39 article contex contex com , frank marvin contex com \( frank perdicaro \) says ft fun , wanted buy one waited 10 years bought hawk instead friends , owners former cycle shop 125 andover , bought one new , several years old cost 995 pay much one hear fitted front end 500cc interceptor , thus great brakes sounds like fun dude forum one thats second hand bike warns fine 40 , 000 miles ft 500 good beginner 's bike reasonable seating position enough power get around , much 'll scare tips well , easy pick \( n't ask \) simple maintenance 've mine four years , n't serious problems bought used 750 8000 miles last week , someone neighborhood stopped ask whether thought good beginner 's bike , comfortable powerful enough , blah blah blah seems found one used 500 3600 miles trick mod 've heard take front end 600 hurricane slide guy campaigns two sos racing says pretty well , strip starter , lights assorted street paraphernalia , pretty fast light bike andrew coll psuvm bitnet psuvm psu edu
mjs sys uea ac uk \( mike sixsmith \) subject need advice riding someone pillion keywords advice , pillion , help ! organization university east anglia distribution na lines 15 irwin cmptrc lonestar org \( irwin arnstein \) writes article mjs zen sys uea ac uk mjs sys uea ac uk \( mike sixsmith \) writes i'm riding would far sooner pillion hanging bike , rather , find weight cause move , upset balance bike pillions see hold really good ones n't hang anything unless violent acceleration taking place n't ride sweetheart \? dreams \(
tony morgan demon co uk \( tony kidson \) subject shaft drives wheelies distribution world organization modem palace reply tony morgan demon co uk x newsreader simple news 1 90 \( ka9q dis 1 21 \) lines 13 hey nick ! got bounce postmaster bnr ca , seems 've never heard user sort guys tony tony kidson pgp 2 2 key request voice 44 81 466 5127 morgan towers , cat move e mail \( order \) morgan road , 've take top tony morgan demon co uk bromley , machine tny cix compulink co uk england br1 3qe honda st1100 dod 0801 100024 301 compuserve com
tony morgan demon co uk \( tony kidson \) subject shaft drives wheelies distribution world organization modem palace reply tony morgan demon co uk x newsreader simple news 1 90 \( ka9q dis 1 21 \) lines 23 article 1993apr23 megatek com randy megatek com writes go change laws physics \? \) according numbers used see bandied around , shaft drive order 95 97 efficient , chain drive closer 99 seems makes chain drive efficient , hmmmmm \? \? \? well maintained chains , running oil , without little rubber 'o' rings cause losses , might reach 99 efficiency average open dust 'o' ring motorcycle chain probably difficult job making 90 efficient tony tony kidson pgp 2 2 key request voice 44 81 466 5127 morgan towers , cat move e mail \( order \) morgan road , 've take top tony morgan demon co uk bromley , machine tny cix compulink co uk england br1 3qe honda st1100 dod 0801 100024 301 compuserve com
tony morgan demon co uk \( tony kidson \) subject back breaker , near hit ! ! distribution world organization modem palace reply tony morgan demon co uk x newsreader simple news 1 90 \( ka9q dis 1 21 \) lines 24 article 1r941o 3tu menudo uh edu inde7wv rosie uh edu writes bike luckily guy stops foot behind rear wheel understand theoretically stop far behind car really actuality avoid incident \? suggestions \? anybody drove somebody like country would hopefully lose licence however , avoidance simple n't stop behind cage stop beside , better still , front , acts buffer tony tony kidson pgp 2 2 key request voice 44 81 466 5127 morgan towers , cat move e mail \( order \) morgan road , 've take top tony morgan demon co uk bromley , machine tny cix compulink co uk england br1 3qe honda st1100 dod 0801 100024 301 compuserve com
tony morgan demon co uk \( tony kidson \) subject back breaker , near hit ! ! distribution world organization modem palace reply tony morgan demon co uk x newsreader simple news 1 90 \( ka9q dis 1 21 \) lines 12 let brain dead idiots drive us \? tony tony kidson pgp 2 2 key request voice 44 81 466 5127 morgan towers , cat move e mail \( order \) morgan road , 've take top tony morgan demon co uk bromley , machine tny cix compulink co uk england br1 3qe honda st1100 dod 0801 100024 301 compuserve com
catherine barbara saum cs20 andrew cmu edu subject please tell 're permenant scratches ! organization temporary employment service , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 16 nntp posting host andrew cmu edu way wax dull finish \( minor \) \? passngering fiance 's bandit , hip pack rubbed tail left nasty dull finish teeny scratches way get rid \? buff \? wax \? help ! thanks advance cathy cathy saum cs20 andrew cmu edu ave 2 '82 yamaha seca pgh , pa '73 cl450 \( custom wooden tank \) studio '64 1 2 mustang \( 351 v8 \) \( 412 \) 521 dod
rbp netcom com \( bob pasker \) subject kinder , gentler bmw mailing list organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 10 joe , i'm sorry felt pissing list intended would interested know said made feel way suggesting list serve need would like see boxer contingent split , certainly enough net one list bob pasker rbp netcom com
eerik iastate edu \( eerik j villberg \) subject ok , little hasty organization iowa state university , ames ia lines 17 jnmoyne 190493111630 moustic lbl gov jnmoyne lbl gov \( jean noel moyne \) writes ok , hold second clarify something dwi stand \? thought dui driving influence , w stand \? iowa \( operating influence \) \( operating motor vehicle influence \) \( gov't \) changed people motor boats could also charged drunk driving eerik j villberg p people eerik iastate edu e eating 4208 harris street tasty ames ia 50010 animals
jgoss gaia torolab ibm com \( jeff goss \) subject back breaker , near hit ! ! reply jlevine rd hydro ca 's message fri , 23 apr 93 21 51 23 gmt lines 17 organization ibm toronto lab article 1993apr23 rd hydro ca jlevine rd hydro ca \( jody levine \) writes article 1r941o 3tu menudo uh edu inde7wv rosie uh edu writes another list one felt helpless sitting light 1 2 car lengths behind car , wise suddenly hear screeching tires dart eyes mirrors realize 's flying right behind , panic pop clutch stall bike luckily guy stops foot behind rear wheel understand theoretically stop far behind car really actuality avoid incident \? suggestions \? another tip make sure keep well one side lane gives quicker escape route jeff goss
nelson seahunt imat com \( michael nelson \) subject looking movies w bikes nntp posting host seahunt imat com organization seahunt , san francisco ca lines 17 article dcs qmw ac uk davide dcs qmw ac uk \( dave edmondson \) writes charles sundheim \( csundh30 ursa calvin edu \) wrote folks , assembling info film criticism class final project 'bout big little robert little guy bonnie clyde good flick , imho michael michael nelson 1993 cbr900rr internet nelson seahunt imat com dod 0735
tcora pica army mil \( tom coradeschi \) subject v max handling request organization elect armts div , us army armt rde ctr , picatinny arsenal , nj lines 30 nntp posting host b329 gator 3 pica army mil jearls tekig6 pen tek com \( jeffrey david earls \) wrote ba7116326 ntuvax ntu ac sg writes hello anyone handson experience riding yamaha v max , pls kindly comment handling guy came race school last weekend number plates v max n't get 2 practice laps pushed frame hard drove guard rail back straight portland international 2 2 v v max handling \? btw rider conscious semi coherent ambulance carted 's know hate pick someone may seriously injured \( let 's hope \) , semi coherent sounds like good description someone shows track w vmax first place tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet like herd performing elephants diarrhea massive , difficult redirect , awe inspiring , entertaining , source mind boggling amounts excrement least expect gene spafford , 1992
tcora pica army mil \( tom coradeschi \) subject live free , quietly , die organization elect armts div , us army armt rde ctr , picatinny arsenal , nj lines 26 nntp posting host b329 gator 3 pica army mil egreen east sun com \( ed green pixel cruncher \) wrote shz mare att com \( keeper 'tude \) writes egreen east sun com \( ed green pixel cruncher \) writes know sounds ludicrous biker advocate restrictions biking biking forum , n't mean former motorcyclist \? read one two ways 1 \) ed 2 \) motorcyclist like alcoholic \( 're alcoholic , 're always alcoholic least 's friends position know tell \) tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet like herd performing elephants diarrhea massive , difficult redirect , awe inspiring , entertaining , source mind boggling amounts excrement least expect gene spafford , 1992
tcora pica army mil \( tom coradeschi \) subject bmw boxer tv ad ! ! organization elect armts div , us army armt rde ctr , picatinny arsenal , nj lines 25 nntp posting host b329 gator 3 pica army mil karr cs cornell edu \( david karr \) wrote mjs sys uea ac uk \( mike sixsmith \) writes anyone see tv ad new bmw boxer u k television weekend \? \? since reception cable , i'm likely see ads 'd likely taped us anyway yeh tough pick uk situation signs type 259 ads tv states yet , n't watch much , i'm real position comment ! got invite dealer introduction deck back rsvp way ! ! ! ! ! ! tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet like herd performing elephants diarrhea massive , difficult redirect , awe inspiring , entertaining , source mind boggling amounts excrement least expect gene spafford , 1992
ant palm21 cray com \( tony jones \) subject yamaha locks \( cobra lock \) lines 14 nntp posting host palm21 organization cray research inc , eagan , mn x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 anyone experience \( new \? \) yamaha cyclelok \? looks like uses hardened steel kryptonite u lock , unlike u lock , 5 places opens large rectangle \( longer length u lock seen , plus folds real small \) , could lock rear tire steel post example curious well jointed sections would stand attack \? tony tony jones \( ant cray com , ! uunet ! cray ! ant \) cmcs group , software division cray research inc , lone oak drive , eagan , mn
behanna syl nj nec com \( chris behanna \) subject maxima chain wax \( mail order \) organization nec systems laboratory , inc lines 31 article 1993apr21 dsd es com bgardner pebbles es com \( blaine gardner \) writes article 1993apr21 147 linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org \( cookson \) writes article 93apr20 211127 44984 acs ucalgary ca parr acs ucalgary ca \( charles parr \) writes bought , tried , truly , miracle spooge chain lubed , wheel clean , 1000km 'd try vfr , goddamn competition accessories n't mailed order yet hell , 's two weeks ordering pretty bizzare stuff like clear rf 200 face sheild , chain wax bastards 's worth , got three days chaparral 's ups ground ca ut , ymmv stuff seems work , n't attract like pj 1 blue gave acid test , full day 's worth breaking 's new paddle tires sand 's anything wet coated sand end day , chain looked pretty clean 'll third recommendation miracle spooge n't go dealer get happened might happen put deposit new bike sigh , chris behanna dod 114 1983 h fxwg wide glide jubilee 's red lady behanna syl nj nec com 1975 cb360t baby bike disclaimer would nec 1991 zx 11 needs name agree anyway \? raised pack wild corn dogs
behanna syl nj nec com \( chris behanna \) subject cobra locks organization nec systems laboratory , inc distribution usa lines 33 article 1993apr21 hemlock cray com ant palm21 cray com \( tony jones \) writes steve bunis se southwest chicago \( doc webrider central sun com \) wrote posting alt best methods securing motorcycle got several responses referring cobra lock \( described \) anyone come across store carrying lock chicago area \? feedback someone used \? new yamaha cyclelok \? far new 's around almost long dirt photo motorcyclist , looks hardened steel kryptonite u lock , except folds five places seems extend far enough lock rear tire tube parking sign similar anyone experience , easy attack lock jointed sections \? one one old bikes worked fine i'm sure , rigid , cyclelok would yield instantly freeze break routine , 40 , ya want \? later , chris behanna dod 114 1983 h fxwg wide glide jubilee 's red lady behanna syl nj nec com 1975 cb360t baby bike disclaimer would nec 1991 zx 11 needs name agree anyway \? raised pack wild corn dogs
sun soe clarkson edu \( matthew sheppard \) subject help adjust tappits organization clarkson university lines 15 nntp posting host sun soe clarkson edu well , got parts replaced needed \( chain \) notice engine still taps like local 'experts' say 's tappits need adjusting soon attempt would like advice anyone shop manual read procedure places anything need \? problems anyone else encountered \? ride 1981 yamaha \( stop laughing , 's tiny , 's shiny \) matthew sheppard clarkson university sun soe clarkson edu 'd rather bottle front frontal anon n't want dod 477 477 ride free \( 8
mechanical watstar uwaterloo ca \( stefan \) subject wanted police officers answer posting lines 15 organization university waterloo one little thing last year , mid december , cop pulled 10 , started snowing \( k right , live canada \) cop checked license , insurance , ownership , looked frozen nose fingers , told watch speed limit closely , , entering cruiser , told , 68 instead 50 km h n't ticket , really slowed \( already mentioned started snow \) safe riding , stefan stefan german exchange student come honda , get running
rintintin colorado edu \( dan martin \) subject touring southwest nntp posting host rintintin colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 30 kim fatcity cts com \( kim sharpe \) writes us touring utah mid june see canyons helpful hints stay things see avoid plans see bryce , zion , arches grand close point additional trip required \? help would nice thank support spring break , went four corners area back beautiful stop made utah needles overlook though bit east appear going , highly recommend imho far beautiful grand canyon well marked , one paved roads \( heading north \) order get right place , clarify needles overlook , recreation area heading north , second , may marked overlook overlook 20 \( dirt , matters \) miles past needles overlook road overlook paved reasonably maintained \( ran 70mph \) looking overlook like god looking world n't far way , see dan martin ca n't stand proliferation paperwork spot useless fight forms 've got kill people producing colorado edu vladimir p , soviet plant manager
dean fringe rain com \( dean woodward \) subject buy first bike , etc organization organization mass confusion lines 20 bclarke galaxy gov bc ca writes lot posts lately wanna buy first bike gsxr zx cbr fzr good bike learn \? etc think i'm going put together faq buying new bike ravi used po one time bruce clarke b c environment e mail bclarke galaxy gov bc ca make buying first bike new bike generally good first bike dean woodward want step world \? dean fringe rain com 's socio psychotic state bliss '82 virago 920 guns'n'roses , 'my world' dod 0866
joe rider cactus org \( joe senner \) subject kinder , gentler bmw mailing list reply joe rider cactus org distribution world organization lines 14 rbp netcom com \( bob pasker \) writes joe , i'm sorry felt pissing list intended would interested know said made feel way n't , meant like boxer owners k bike owners k bike owners boxer owners forth end 's nothing co owner received returned intentionally , sorry 'bout lack \) 's joe senner joe rider cactus org bmw mailing list bmw rider cactus org austin area ride mailing list ride rider cactus org
bgardner pebbles es com \( blaine gardner \) subject back breaker , near hit ! ! nntp posting host 130 187 85 70 organization evans sutherland computer corporation lines 10 article morgan demon co uk tony morgan demon co uk writes let brain dead idiots drive us \? , unlike uk , passing average driving test usually requires pulse single digit iq every state controls licensing requirements , 's possible 's test actually requires driving skills , doubt blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com
cookson mbunix mitre org \( cookson \) subject maxima chain wax \( mail order \) nntp posting host mbunix mitre org organization mitre corporation , bedford , lines 21 article 1993apr21 dsd es com bgardner pebbles es com \( blaine gardner \) writes article 1993apr21 147 linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org \( cookson \) writes 'd try vfr , goddamn competition accessories n't mailed order yet hell , 's two weeks ordering pretty bizzare stuff like clear rf 200 face sheild , chain wax bastards 's worth , got three days chaparral 's ups ground ca ut , ymmv stuff seems work , n't called said order went 13th 're putting ups tracer watch , 'll waiting home tonight \) dean dean cookson dcookson mitre org 617 271 2714 dod 207 ama 573534 mitre corp burlington rd , bedford , 01730 kotnml kotb road shepherd shall stop '92 vfr750f sam eliott , road hogs mtv 1993 '88 bianchi limited
cookson mbunix mitre org \( cookson \) subject ok , little hasty nntp posting host mbunix mitre org organization mitre corporation , bedford , lines 14 article sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes driving allows prosecution drivers influence variety drugs 's shame 's law driving stupid little would prevent kinds accidents dean dean cookson dcookson mitre org 617 271 2714 dod 207 ama 573534 mitre corp burlington rd , bedford , 01730 kotnml kotb road shepherd shall stop '92 vfr750f sam eliott , road hogs mtv 1993 '88 bianchi limited
bgardner pebbles es com \( blaine gardner \) subject touring southwest nntp posting host 130 187 85 70 organization evans sutherland computer corporation lines 32 article fatcity cts com kim fatcity cts com \( kim sharpe \) writes us touring utah mid june see canyons helpful hints stay things see avoid plans see bryce , zion , arches grand close point additional trip required \? well , 's closer bryce bryce arches 'd spend lot time studying maps , 's lot ca n't get area might want hit grand canyon way california , loop around moab arches , back towards bryce zion way home make sure ride us 12 capitol reef bryce , 's number top 10 roads lists nice booklet detailing lot interesting paved \( \) \( \) roads ordered utah travel council think also get state map asking utah 4 00 \( us \) utah travel council council hall capitol hill salt lake city , ut \( 801 \) 583 1030 blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com
bgardner pebbles es com \( blaine gardner \) subject shaft drives wheelies nntp posting host 130 187 85 70 organization evans sutherland computer corporation lines 18 article morgan demon co uk tony morgan demon co uk writes article 1993apr23 megatek com randy megatek com writes go change laws physics \? \) according numbers used see bandied around , shaft drive order 95 97 efficient , chain drive closer 99 seems makes chain drive efficient , hmmmmm \? \? \? well maintained chains , running oil , without little rubber 'o' rings cause losses , might reach 99 efficiency average open dust 'o' ring motorcycle chain probably difficult job making 90 efficient sources numbers \? stuff everybody knows \? blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com
eerik iastate edu \( eerik j villberg \) subject shaft drives wheelies organization iowa state university , ames ia distribution rec lines 22 stafford stafford winona msus edu stafford vax2 winona msus edu \( john stafford \) writes 19 apr 93 21 48 42 gmt , xlyx vax5 cit cornell edu said possible wheelie motorcycle shaft drive \? yes , rear wheel comes ground , front see , hops air ! figure know roads minnesota pretty bad , doubt bad 've never realy tried watch back tyre , 82 maxim 750 pull front wheel ground pop clutch admittedly , easier someone back , maybe 's keeps rear tyre \) john stafford minnesota state university winona standard disclaimers apply eerik j villberg p people eerik iastate edu e eating 4208 harris street tasty ames ia 50010 animals
prism gatech edu \( ray \) subject v max handling request organization georgia institute technology lines 26 article tcora b329 gator 3 pica army mil tcora pica army mil \( tom coradeschi \) writes jearls tekig6 pen tek com \( jeffrey david earls \) wrote ba7116326 ntuvax ntu ac sg writes hello anyone handson experience riding yamaha v max , pls kindly comment handling \( vmax racing horror story deleted \) portland international 2 2 v v max handling \? actually , racer , william , considered running vmax took practice day , really annoyed 600 riders usually got caught behind sideways vmax corners , passed going , 'd blow straight \( usually \) needless say , since 2 seconds faster 1977 , decided vmax bad ray 623 expert single minded guy
cgkarras world std com \( christopher g karras \) subject help adjust tappits organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 17 sun soe clarkson edu \( matthew sheppard \) writes local 'experts' say 's tappits need adjusting soon attempt would like advice anyone adjusting shims cam valve , question buy full set shims starting adjustment process , calculate shims need run dealer cage see right shims stock \? obviously latter would cheaper \( shims cost \? \) , measurements shim need reliable enough buy indicated shims \? chris christopher g karras internet cgkarras world std com
jeq lachman com \( jonathan e quist \) subject dod confessional nntp posting host birdie i88 isc com organization lachman technology , incorporated , naperville , il lines 52 article 1993apr21 551 bnr ca mbeaving bnr ca writes ca n't help 've tried rational , look way , everytime happens , hate motorcycles hah newbie bait everyone knows first motorcycle n't built pre '80 's motorcycles ! first thought phase though would get used n't happen tried gazing 900 customs , time hurled large \( also picture german tourists cheering taking holiday snaps , ca n't figure part \) 've watching much northern exposure \? everytime read sig containing wheel wonder , shudder feel pity poor soul suffered enough \? wheels \? imagine owner \( \) living discarded box , tucked next cx500 obviously , bait everyone knows n't discard boxes even 've become , 're make great poor boy 's mechanic 's cx500 \? \? i'm hoping deliverance okay let 's hear like pig past milwaukee machine , actually begin understand preaching must hope beware fanatical preaching , lest residents waco , texas set huge bar honor jonathan e quist jeq lachman com lachman technology , incorporated dod 094 , kotpp , kotcf '71 cl450 k4 gleep naperville , il 's nothing quite like pitter patter little feet , followed words daddy ! yay !
jeq lachman com \( jonathan e quist \) subject moa members , another letter read ! nntp posting host birdie i88 isc com organization lachman technology , incorporated , naperville , il lines 19 article 1993apr21 ra msstate edu vech ra msstate edu \( craig vechorik \) writes k , read , think , trust know cecil king , editor befor douglass , pres candidate let draw conclusions n't know either , think see problem 've got cecil king douglass need king cecil adams maybe rodney king cecil \? jonathan e quist jeq lachman com lachman technology , incorporated dod 094 , kotpp , kotcf '71 cl450 k4 gleep naperville , il 's nothing quite like pitter patter little feet , followed words daddy ! yay !
doc webrider central sun com \( steve bunis se southwest chicago \) subject black reflector tape \? organization sun microsystems , inc lines 20 distribution world reply doc webrider central sun com nntp posting host webrider central sun com months ago , one motorcycle mags , article mentioned reflector tape supposed available thru bmw idea tape would look black sunlight , reflect colors night headlights sounded like nice way add visibility without turning bike carnival attraction talked local bmw dealer told thing heard kind reflector , used coming line bmw clothing \( \) n't aware anything regarding self applied tape anyone come across bmw source \? thanks , steve bunis , sun microsystems dod 93 st1100 , il ama 78 kz650
subject shaft drives wheelies erika cts com \( erik astrup \) distribution rec organization x newsreader tin 1 1 pl4 lines 16 xlyx vax5 cit cornell edu writes possible wheelie motorcycle shaft drive \? yes erik astrup afm 422 dod 683 1993 cbr 900rr 1990 cbr 600 1990 concours 1990 ninja 250 one goes eleven nigel tufnel , lead guitar , spinal tap
neal cmptrc lonestar org \( neal howard \) subject maxima chain wax organization computrac inc , richardson tx lines 20 article drutx att com pms torreys att com \( paul smith \) writes article rmugele oracle com rmugele oracle com \( robert \) writes 've tried locate place sells maxima chain wax dallas area anyone know retail outlet area mail order anywhere \? dallas area , bought \( 's best friend 's bike 1986 , mines got belt ! ! ! \) 6 79 \( 7 35 tax \) bates discount cycle parts service road farmers branch couple miles north 635 interchange dozen cans left neal howard '91 xlh 1200 dod 686 computrac , inc \( richardson , tx \) doh 0000001200 355o33 neal cmptrc lonestar org std disclaimer opinions mine , computrac 's let us learn dream , gentlemen , perhaps shall learn truth august kekule' \( 1890 \)
jgoss gaia torolab ibm com \( jeff goss \) subject wanted police officers answer posting reply jrlaf sgi502 msd lmsc lockheed com 's message wed , 21 apr 93 16 31 18 gmt lines 14 organization ibm toronto lab article 1993apr21 iscnvx lmsc lockheed com jrlaf sgi502 msd lmsc lockheed com \( j r laferriere \) writes stuff deleted questions ask typical cop regards pulling someone minor moving violation \( rolling stop , lane change , mph speed limit , etc \) minor \? put lane change minor category \? know guys jeff goss
car377 cbnewsj cb att com \( charles rogers \) subject shaft drives wheelies organization summary tough rings lines 17 article morgan demon co uk , tony morgan demon co uk \( tony kidson \) writes well maintained chains , running oil , without little rubber 'o' rings cause losses , might reach 99 efficiency average open dust 'o' ring motorcycle chain probably difficult job making 90 efficient 120 hp produced fj1100 engine , 12 hp \( 745 7 watts \) 1 hp 8 948 dumped 220 tiny rings \? 's 40 67 watts per ring ! seems little hot , think \? chuck rogers car377 torreys att com
mellon ncd com \( ted lemon \) subject need advice riding someone pillion organization network computing devices , inc lines 28 distribution na nntp posting host pepper ncd com reply lemay netcom com 's message wed , 21 apr 1993 16 48 10 gmt one reasons originally liked current much bmw \) sigh 's music ears , complaining lois seat bmw best passengers echo movements lean rider look shoulder thats comfortable , turns look shoulder inside turn 've found phrase sack potatoes works pretty well describing passenger act switch hands stretch shoulders , sure squeeze thighs 're rider knows 're still \) guard rail n't safe holding onto rider long ride ex girlfriend nancy , would notice drifting every often \( highway 101 la \) probably would n't aware n't habit butt knees hold good advice mellon mellon ncd com uunet ! ! mellon member league programming freedom find software patents may cost right program , contact lpf uunet uu net
mbeaving bnr ca \( michael beavington \) subject yamaha locks \( cobra lock \) nntp posting host bmerh824 reply mbeaving bnr ca organization bnr ottawa , dms software design lines 15 article 1993apr21 hemlock cray com , ant palm21 cray com \( tony jones \) writes anyone experience \( new \? \) yamaha cyclelok \? oooo , hope 's nothing like seca turbo locked back wheel forgot took heard , drove away leaving lock broken ground real security action beav mike beavington dod 9733 v65sabre mbeaving bnr ca employer idea i'm talking !
frankb sad hp com \( frank ball \) subject help adjust tappits organization , x newsreader tin version 1 1 4 pl6 lines 20 christopher g karras \( cgkarras world std com \) wrote adjusting shims cam valve , question buy full set shims starting adjustment process , calculate shims need run dealer cage see right shims stock \? obviously latter would cheaper \( shims cost \? \) , measurements shim need reliable enough buy indicated shims \? buy need would cost lot buy full set , wo n't ever use good luck calculation method never change one size increment time \( never needed change larger next size , usually \) cost yamaha frank ball 1ur frankb sad hp com \( 707 \) 794 4168 work , hewlett packard \( 707 \) 794 3844 fax , \( 707 \) 538 3693 home 1212 valley house drive it175 , xt350 , seca 750 , '62 f 100 , pl510 park ca 4999 , law , ama , dod , i'm nra
jlevine rd hydro ca \( jody levine \) subject good reasons wave organization ontario hydro research division lines 16 article mavenry altcit eskimo com maven mavenry altcit eskimo com \( norman hamer \) writes waving bikers makes sense hey , 's going , nice meet road , good ride 2 \) keeps habit watching really carefully bikes 're cage good thing anyone , driving cage , ever waved bikers \? get urge , 've never actually done 've bike like jody levine dod 275 kv got pf jody p levine hydro ca ride toronto , ontario , canada let 's see many posts takes someone selectively quote article
cassidy elan rowan edu \( kyle cassidy \) subject good reasons wave lines 12 nntp posting host rowan edu organization rowan college new jersey article arturo infmx arturo informix com \( arturo vega \) writes anyone else ever caught waving oncoming motorcycle riders car \? ha ! i'm bike , 's broken i'm \( really way \) kyle cassidy cassidy rowan edu fire guns ! dod 760
cassidy elan rowan edu \( kyle cassidy \) subject looking movies w bikes summary bike movies keywords movies lines 22 nntp posting host rowan edu organization rowan college new jersey article csundh30 ursa csundh30 ursa calvin edu \( charles sundheim \) writes assembling info film criticism class final project man , every time thread comes , start jumping screaming ' easy wheels ! easy wheels ! ' date , seems like i'm one ever seen 's absolutely hysterical basic plot reporter searching ring blow road \( hot \) gang babe bikers leather rescued wrecked car desert xtian biker band lead ex viet nam vet steel plate head gives visions time time soon discover gang 'o babes kidnapping children raised wolves \( reasoning behind complex \) , set stop restore justice order world one 5 funniest movies ever seen life kyle cassidy cassidy rowan edu fire guns ! dod 760
aa963 freenet carleton ca \( lloyd carr \) subject female \( 40 's \) looking riding buddy ! reply aa963 freenet carleton ca \( lloyd carr \) organization national capital freenet lines 35 previous article , ccc amdahl com \( david e ben \) says single , white female 40s , looking man motorcycle share fun trips 1 6 days \( \) honda magna 700 riding life 's hard find people ride son 's account , please respond address info \( phone number , etc \) thanks ! n't need sig n't mention riding area 're eastern part ontario canada , may able help love 1 day runs info needed lloyd '86 stallion dod 814 carr aa963 freenet carleton ca e mail carr uranus doc ca ontario ham ip ca na
nelson seahunt imat com \( michael nelson \) subject maxima chain wax nntp posting host seahunt imat com organization seahunt , san francisco ca lines 14 article 1993apr23 research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com \( chris behanna \) writes spray chain wax onto rollers occassionally , rust problem regularly michael michael nelson 1993 cbr900rr internet nelson seahunt imat com dod 0735
neal cmptrc lonestar org \( neal howard \) subject need advice ! \( i'm new rider \) organization computrac inc , richardson tx lines 23 information could give would greatly appreciated ! ! ! ! send reply account , 'd like , back net chris 00cjmelching leo bsuvc bsu edu vivid imagination sez almost close enuff mail 00cjmelching leo bsuvc bsu edu users neal dod faq dod naw ! ! ! neal howard '91 xlh 1200 dod 686 computrac , inc \( richardson , tx \) doh 0000001200 355o33 neal cmptrc lonestar org std disclaimer opinions mine , computrac 's let us learn dream , gentlemen , perhaps shall learn truth august kekule' \( 1890 \)
neal cmptrc lonestar org \( neal howard \) subject opinion means organization computrac inc , richardson tx lines 16 article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu \( andrew infante \) writes article nmrdc1 nmrdc nnmc navy mil dsc3jfs nmrdc1 nmrdc nnmc navy mil \( jim small \) writes article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu \( andrew infante \) writes stuff deleted oh , real honest goodness flamewar fired even relevance motorcycling amazing neal howard '91 xlh 1200 dod 686 computrac , inc \( richardson , tx \) doh 0000001200 355o33 neal cmptrc lonestar org std disclaimer opinions mine , computrac 's let us learn dream , gentlemen , perhaps shall learn truth august kekule' \( 1890 \)
arun ece scarolina edu \( arun \) subject looking movies w bikes organization usc department computer science lines 9 grease ii \? \? \? \? \? arun cool rider 's look eyes , like black holes sky shine crazy
lynx umn edu \( bill \) subject yamaha locks \( cobra lock \) nntp posting host lynx umn edu organization university minnesota lines 11 lock including easy break person proper supplies motivation 3 minutes bike gone ! would glad explain dont want contribute unlawful activities especially since bike would hate see ripped tactic warning lock alone safe theft , thief doesnt need lock walk away property ! personally think motion alarms combination lock type way go fact concerned bill
bd fluent dartmouth edu \( brice \) subject good reasons wave reply mbeaving bnr ca 's message tue , 20 apr 1993 18 45 30 gmt reply bd fluent dartmouth edu organization fluent inc , lebanon nh distribution na lines 7 mbeaving bnr ca \( michael beavington \) writes side i'm cage , numerous occasions slammed hand rolled window effort wave passing biker ow n't dwi thread \?
bd fluent dartmouth edu \( brice \) subject dogs reply heathman ncsa uiuc edu 's message tue , 20 apr 1993 20 25 24 gmt reply bd fluent dartmouth edu organization fluent inc , lebanon nh distribution na lines 7 heathman ncsa uiuc edu \( michael heathman \) writes professionals train guard dogs , polled , gave 1 4 chance survival tackling trained dog unarmed trained guard dog untrained may another story course 'd say 're trying sell services
ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( nighthawk \) subject shaft drives wheelies organization university buffalo lines 40 news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host ubvmsb cc buffalo edu article 1993apr21 colorado edu , laszlo eclipse cs colorado edu \( laszlo nemeth \) writes article wrs 4180 wslack uucp , wrs wslack uucp \( bill slack \) writes various posts shafties ca n't wheelies mike imposible due shaft effect centripital effects rotating shaft counteract tendency front wheel lift ground good point john buddy mine told thing bmw r80gs dumped clutch 5 , \( hey , ito nly revved 7 \) know \? right ! uh , folks , shaft n't diddleysquatpoop get front wheel ground 5 , ferchrissake ! may able bounce front actually wheelie see shaft effect rear loads front shaft bike accelerate starts scraping corner laz sorry contradictory , 've nighthawk 45 horizon n't banked turn hard part getting front ground rev 7 , 000 drop clutch even harder keeping coming far use back brake well throttle , 'll wheelie like bike ethan ethan dod 682 1983 nighthawk hey cuts hair man \? nothing clears mind quite chong like maxed tach closed mouth contains feet buried speedometer unknown
ray unisql uucp \( ray shea \) subject ok , little hasty organization unisql , inc , austin , texas , usa lines 13 article jnmoyne 190493111630 moustic lbl gov jnmoyne lbl gov \( jean noel moyne \) writes dwi stand \? dancing ray shea wound like effective method unisql , inc leah unisql ! ray cs utexas edu days miss boon real bad dod 0372 team twinkie '88 hawk gt
twg com \( roger walls \) subject point helmet law point mc b organization wollongong group , palo alto , ca lines 18 article 5967 prcrs prc com terry prcrs prc com \( terry cunningham \) writes article 1993apr12 rtsg mot com , svoboda rtsg mot com \( david svoboda \) writes oh , banning motorcycles actually reasonable reasonable eyes misinformed misunderstanding public , conversely , attitude could seem blind know law , either books proposed , bans motorcycles place want go motorcycles allowed th 17 mile drive beach roger
jrwaters eos ncsu edu \( jack rogers waters \) subject cagers thunk \? organization north carolina state university , project eos lines 19 article 1993apr24 1 cua edu 84wendel cua edu writes gets credit perfectly descriptive name cagers \? also anybody know term first used thanks yesterday seriously , ada gets credit first used late 80s bike wonder jack waters ii dod 1919 n't fear thief night one comes afternoon , i'm still asleep , worry
maven mavenry altcit eskimo com \( norman hamer \) subject assorted ranting lines 40 x altnet id hate bastard picked weather today went visit friend overnight \( 45 minute ride \) rode work , minor last 5 minutes ride rest ride zen got morning , needed go home get disks stuff work computers , rainy hell soaked cold time got home since n't another set dry , said heck drove cage back lo behold , funny blue clouds sky warm yellow thing n't seen quite awhile showed 10 minutes trip cage oh joy happily , right hand mirror finally showed dealer \( dropped bike first got , put replacement mirror hated entire time thing bike could n't see damned thing , plus 's flat instead convex like stock mirrors , get narrow angle blur \) got replacement windshield fairing \( dropped original chipped front edge cosmetic annoying \) spent half hour happily things replacing afternoon 'bout thing still hate bike \( '75 cb360t \) damned 2 cell flashlight headlight anyone seen good source 25 watt halogen passing lights \? since charging system cb360t ca n't handle continuous use halogen headlight , thinking putting couple passing lights would give lighting rare night riding , would n't drain battery normal use \( chiefly day trips work back \)
leavitt cs umd edu \( mr bill \) subject shaft drives wheelies organization cafe edge universe lines 20 xlyx vax5 cit cornell edu \( mike terry \) asks possible wheelie motorcycle shaft drive \? ak296 yfn ysu edu \( john r daker \) replies mike imposible due shaft effect centripital effects rotating shaft counteract tendency front wheel lift ground ugh ! gave guys login names \? blech p john obviously never saw ride buddy 's cx500 , known torque monster could pull beautiful bike ! unfortunately , owner saw one never get ride tm \( mr bill bill leavitt , 224 '82 cbx white lightning , '82 gs850g leavitt cs umd edu '76 little honda , '68 lone star sick leave dod ama nia '69 impala convertible incredible hulk , others hmmm , thought bore stroke technique ! michael bain , 757
rye cray com \( james k rye \) subject put helmet originator rye lines 30 nntp posting host organization cray research , inc article 1993apr21 rd hydro ca , jlevine rd hydro ca \( jody levine \) writes article 97 uupcb compdyn questor org ryan cousineau compdyn questor org \( ryan cousineau \) writes another good place helmet mirror \( ! \) dents dings liner , sometimes quite bit 've bike like jody levine dod 275 kv got pf jody p levine hydro ca ride toronto , ontario , canada also works great put really hot days tar gets really soft jim rags rye senior technical support analyst 86 harley davidson rye cray com cray research inc , , mn 're going something tonight 'll sorry tomorrow morning , sleep late opinions mine mine , small fee may rent
bclarke galaxy gov bc ca subject opinion means organization bc systems corporation lines 6 c'mon guys motorcycles booze n't mix said bruce clarke b c environment e mail bclarke galaxy gov bc ca
viking iastate edu \( dan sorenson \) subject wanted police officers answer posting organization iowa state university , ames ia lines 63 csundh30 ursa calvin edu \( charles sundheim \) writes potentially cool story stuff share details get verbal warning 146 55 's simple first , first really nice riding day spring bike back together , grab gear , put , fill tank 94 octane premium better head ames , road leads little town gilbert gilbert one stop light , tells something gotten bike back together , thought 'd take short ride check things heading town , went slow pace , speed limit , started leaning around pace everything felt right finally , road straightened ready bit speed grab third gear , open roughly grab fourth gear look much bike , fail notice state trooper following quarter mile behind twist throttle like fool , grab fifth gear 130 , see well 's put back together 146 \( according radar \) noticed front fender flexing bit thus , slowed , pulled road , removed helmet gloves , took kit carrying fanny pack , starting tighten fender trooper pulled hot idea fast going \? precisely , paying attention bike road , instruments got back together last night , i'm testing ride traffic radar says care tell n't give ticket \? testing motorcycle away population traffic , strait flat road , wearing protective gear safety demands \? \( note n't quite eloquent \) say , kind bike , anyway \? eloquent cafe racer replica honda 750 , rat bike yeah , n't bike garage years compare riding stories pack toolkit , tightened fender \? figure every idiot road going look right bike fails somehow zone , i'm dead holds , know work right traffic year rebuild 'll find better place highway speeds ever catch speeding highway i'm going nail everything possibly get sight write ticket yes , officer kid , keep eyes open drives , nut shell , get warning 146 55 n't guarantee work , worked dan sorenson , dod 1066 z1dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu censors read , say n't blame usenet post exotic , distant machines meet exciting , unusual people flame
ubvmsd cc buffalo edu \( nighthawk \) subject shaft drives wheelies organization university buffalo lines 24 news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host ubvmsd cc buffalo edu course , people seem acting smug probably chain final drive \( , know , less efficient higher maintenance \) probably n't know answer start thread anyway , laz 's solemn assurance serious 'only pull true assertion , whatever hell means doug rinckes drinckes tssc wlg nec co jp new zealand tssc ltd 1976 bmw r100s 1960 bmw r60 1940 indian uh , doug , n't know school thought , chain drive much efficient shafties end story period give shafties much less maintenance intensive ethan ethan dod 682 1983 nighthawk hey cuts hair man \? nothing clears mind quite chong like maxed tach closed mouth contains feet buried speedometer unknown
dagibbs quantum qnx com \( david gibbs \) subject countersteering sans hands organization qnx software systems , ltd lines 22 article 1993apr20 cs cornell edu karr cs cornell edu \( david karr \) writes article clarke 6 bdrc bd com clarke bdrc bd com \( richard clarke \) writes steer hands n't bars \? \( open budweiser left hand , camel cigarette right , feet allowed \) lean , bike turns , countersteering \? , bars would turn toward direction turn hands steering case original poster looking serious answer , 'll supply one yes , even steering hands something quite similar countersteering basically turn left , quick wiggle bike right first , causing lean occur left lot difficult motorcycle bicycle though , extra weight \( ok , motorcycle heavy maybe n't \) david
microsoft com \( pat \) subject need advice riding someone pillion organization microsoft corp keywords advice , pillion , help ! distribution usa lines 68 article c5t759 dsc well sf ca us rwert well sf ca us wrote need advice someone ride pillion 750 ninja first time 've taken anyone extended ride \( read farther around block \) 'll riding twisty , fairly bumpy roads \( mines road mt hamilton loop sf bay areans \) person 100 lbs fairly small , n't see weight much problem , sort advice give go \? quite bit sporty riding 2 'll tell 've found systems 've worked starts , accelerate much slower usual 's tough rider judge scary fast acceleration , 're holding onto something leaning forward remember turns , lean forward angle \( normally means n't leaning \) 's disconcerting leaned passenger leaning 're sitting straight much balance lost dangerous slowing stopping , much slower usual , 's tough rider judge scary fast deceleration , 're holding onto something leaning forward however , 'll figure fast braking fast shove passenger forward , tank location generally , passenger keep knees bike , wide helps balance gives passenger fear , squeeze knees normally means slow , ! turning leans , else \? traditional signals slow ! ! go faster ! ! hafta go pee ! ! etc \? \? \? couple signals slow either tapping back , helmet might depends urgency matter \) turn done pointing direction exit also sign cool ! look hafta pee sign turn i'm hungry sign go faster usually done jumping pegs glee usually see slow often go faster really want positive experience us , mainly 'll want go , help appreciated best thing ride talk riding buddy , pillion bike 's incredibly frustrating , 're almost control , multiply feeling times ten , rider know bike , passenger likely feel 're scrape hard parts time , lock brakes moment , go edge volcanic mountain , etc good training take somebody pillion pad also , remember 's much draining tiring ride 2 , 're concentrating much , zen moment less remember pat microsoft com seattle , wa dod 393 , ama , vme , , 2 53 '91 vfr750f , '91 nighthawk 750 , '82 seca 650 turbo sale
cjackson adobe com \( curtis jackson \) subject need advice riding someone pillion keywords advice , pillion , help ! organization adobe systems incorporated , mountain view distribution na lines 61 article c5t759 dsc well sf ca us rwert well sf ca us \( bob wert \) writes need advice someone ride pillion 750 ninja first time 've taken anyone extended ride \( read farther around block \) 'll riding twisty , fairly bumpy roads \( mines road mt hamilton loop sf bay areans \) unless really , take route first extended ride ! 's kinda like taking someone show 10 way speed star competition first skydive person 100 lbs fairly small , n't see weight much problem , sort advice give go \? want hold onto \) rather grab rail back , 've heard look shoulder direction 're turning leans , else \? traditional 1 \) ninja adjustable suspension , adjust stiffer setting n't bottom bumpy curves 2 \) tell 3 cardinal rules \) never ever ever ever put feet stop stop sign , thinks 're gonna crash , never keep pegs tell get bike b \) hold onto waist hold tightly enough wo n't slide bike twist throttle bit \( added bonus \) , keep close butt possible quick stops n't make slide knock balls onto gas tank decide best word c \) stay perpendicular bike straight seat n't lean body curves , go bike stay perpendicular n't look shoulder 3 \) remember times passenger back means n't pop clutch , try corner stop smoother usual aware jump brake , 're going equivalent 100 lb dead weight crashing behind , prepared 4 \) make sure pisses ride even says n't go anti women stuff tiny bladder 5 \) remind look around 're riding point things interest makes ride enjoyable \( wo n't get focused looking back helmet \) , gives ample excuse squeeze show saw pointed wife tried msf recommended look rider 's shoulder curves bit , n't work timing weight shift unpredictable \( especially maxim , unlike ninja , upright riding position really restricts pillion 's view road ahead \) next time remain perpendicular bike , could hardly tell someone else bike curves , weighs substantially 100 lbs curtis jackson cjackson mv us adobe com '91 hawk gt '81 maxim 650 dod 0721 kotb '91 black lab mix studley doright '92 collie golden george justification taking away individuals' freedom guise public safety thomas jefferson
dmunroe vcd hp com \( ha li \) subject bonding caged cop \? distribution rec motorcycles , ba motorcycles organization float bowl chinese food lines 16 oracle uucp \( kelley \) writes drove past , actually turned way around car seat see noticed , smiled ca n't life figure friendly 's dod license plate frame cops really like 'em either , mistook one friends , possibly duty cop dave need clothes , boots , motorcycle arnold schwarzenegger , t2
howland noc2 arc nasa gov \( curt howland \) subject looking movies w bikes organization nasa science internet project office lines 9 knight riders got one movies 've ever seen curt howland ace dod 0663 eff 569 howland nsipo nasa gov '82 v45 sabre meddle afairs wizards , makes soggy hard light
howland noc2 arc nasa gov \( curt howland \) subject good reasons wave organization nasa science internet project office lines 21 article 1993apr21 rd hydro ca , jlevine rd hydro ca \( jody levine \) writes anyone , driving cage , ever waved bikers \? get urge , 've never actually done biker girlfriend car , told stupid , rider would n't know waving 's long gone let 's see many posts takes someone selectively quote article one curt howland ace dod 0663 eff 569 howland nsipo nasa gov '82 v45 sabre meddle afairs wizards , makes soggy hard light
erika cts com \( erik astrup \) subject octane \? organization x newsreader tin 1 1 pl4 lines 26 jnmoyne lbl gov \( jean noel moyne \) writes know kind gas buy \? depending compression ratio engine heard ok , kind gas goes kind compression i'm asking used put 87 hawk gt day , changed wanted see difference n't know i'm subjective , seems like bike runs better ! run bike lowest octane run smoothly higher octane fuel better lower octane gas pick last american roadracing magazine 's short article octane misconceptions many people make subject look owners manual believe states 87 fine erik astrup afm 422 dod 683 1993 cbr 900rr 1990 cbr 600 1990 concours 1990 ninja 250 one goes eleven nigel tufnel , lead guitar , spinal tap
gaijin ale japan sun com \( john little nihon sun repair depot \) subject bra bra \( johs dhhalden \) organization nihon sun microsystems atsugi technical centre japan lines 48 nntp posting host ale japan sun com summary exhausting ! keywords pete , newbie , \? , , dead parrot , , , old nick \( little devil ! \) tsk , tsk , tsk another newbie bites dust , eh \? 'll learn newbie \? eh \? slap table , pete 'll show ! i'm terribly sorry damned well young ! 's wet ten 's repeat sort thing ! , keeping grand tradition wreck moto , let 's ! take partners hand tuesday morning spent couple hours \( working \) torch , bits scrap metal biggest holes 's exhaust pipes \( couple aa cells three volt bulb ! \) stuck gun gum smaller holes pipes back onto bike , last night i'm way home an' bloody behold , thing starts blowing check gas escaping around clamp holding number two pipe port far see \( somewhat hole time ! \) , nuts still \( stop bloody , back ! \) , pipe bit loose morning go bike pull socket set tighten me' nuts \( somebody give spotty kid back good slap round back head ! \) , an' bloody behold bloody gen , find outer skin pipe separated inner sleeve right clamp mating , stuff bit baked bit mr best gun gum come work \( late ! \) ask oracle joint hold close exhaust port \? anybody tried \? oh , anybody tell differences 205 207 rod \( made gaz yup ! camping folks surprised , ! place isle wight \) 'd eternally grateful \( twenty quid two rods n't even know i'm buying bloody kanji ! \) john little gaijin japan sun com sun microsystems atsugi , japan
behanna syl nj nec com \( chris behanna \) subject fj1100 1200 owners tankbag suggestions wanted organization nec systems laboratory , inc lines 14 article 1993apr21 rd hydro ca jlevine rd hydro ca \( jody levine \) writes nelson bag 5 , side ones used , depending load using three super convenient , extra two great carrying beer concentrate , bricks reports written overpaid consultants quit keeping us sells remarkable bag \? later , chris behanna dod 114 1983 h fxwg wide glide jubilee 's red lady behanna syl nj nec com 1975 cb360t baby bike disclaimer would nec 1991 zx 11 needs name agree anyway \? raised pack wild corn dogs
jtrascap nyx cs du edu \( jim trascapoulos \) subject 1982 yamaha maxim sale \( denver area \) summary posting roomate keywords yamaha , motorcycle , 550 cc organization university denver , dept math comp sci lines 25 \( message posted roomate \) bike good condition , black , miles , mag wheels , front disk , rear drum , good front tire , new back tire , ring chain , new battery , new starter laid back look bike runs real strong four carbs giving best buyer gets cover \( weather , \) , tank bag \( non magnetic ca n't take disks along otherwise ! \) , cargo net manual bike origional tool kit matching yamaha lock asking 1700 best offer would like sell soon , please call \( voice ! \) \( ack ! \) questions ! john \( 303 \) area \( home \) 238 \( work \) 296
hpfcso fc hp com \( victor johnson \) subject type spesifications \( cb , vfr , gt , etc \) organization dances hawks lines 17 rec motorcycles , cjackson adobe com \( curtis jackson \) writes article c5sk1d c1p srgenprp sr hp com frankb sad hp com \( frank ball \) writes honda v designates v engine street bike vf v 4 , vt v twin honda hawk \( nt 650 \) \? 's twin , called vt 's took old vt 500 engine stepped make plant hawk new twin fly microsoft nt \( new technology \) \? 've long today cheers , victor dances hawks johnson
jld hpfcso fc hp com \( jeff deeney \) subject first bike \? \? wheelies organization hewlett packard , fort collins , co , usa lines 14 rec motorcycles , speedy engr latech edu \( speedy mercer \) writes buy old dirt bike find vacant field \( get owners permission \) learn basics done sell trash bike move street speedy , 've got wrong 're done , buy better dirt bike , body armor , decent boots , forget weenie street riding \) jeff deeney dod '88 jld fc hp com ama '81 dirt bike riding perfectly safe scars prove
britt leland stanford edu \( britt park \) subject power loss load honda cb360t keywords honda cb360t power loss jets timing organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa lines 24 1974 honda cb360t purposes runs well however severe power drop cruising speeds load , mild upgrade 50 mph 4th 5th i'm lucky hold speed try add throttle much past 5000 rpm , power drops drastically put simply , load , engine wo n't rev past 5000 rpm top third half throttle range dead standing still engine runs fine red line \( 9 10k \) point power loss kicks , engine becomes little , steady throttle engine speed goes slightly bike 13000 miles good tune , least starts balk would appreciate suggestions 's poor beast thoughts run toward clogged jets improper spark advance i'm hoping 's something drastic since bike 's really worth hassle major engine work thanks , britt park britt cb iris stanford edu
jcn rice edu \( jeff nichols \) subject help adjust tappits organization rice university , biochemistry lines 16 article morgan demon co uk , tony morgan demon co uk \( tony kidson \) wrote article jcn lactose rice edu jcn rice edu writes speaking shims , would clearance valves get smaller , e need use thinner shim \? valve seat wear \? okay , okay forgot jeff nichols rice university
ahatcher athena cs uga edu \( allan hatcher \) subject , xxxx , mean police officers read stuff \? organization university georgia , athens lines 28 article 1993apr20 iscnvx lmsc lockheed com jrlaf sgi502 msd lmsc lockheed com \( j r laferriere \) writes wondering law officers read several questions would like ask pertaining motorcycles cops please n't say get vehicle code , go local station , obvious things like questions would found places answered face face real , live flesh , cop brother friend cousin whos father cop , etc n't bother writing thanks well , goes lurking long time , 'll announce yes , i'm enemy enemy also happens ride arrest red 90 vfr bike history \( dod \) 79 honda xl 175 high school 85 kawasaki 600 84 honda sabre cornering committee 88 honda hawk gt designed bike 90 vfr 'll entertain questions answers reflect georgia law may apply state p anyone got suit sale \?
ahatcher athena cs uga edu \( allan hatcher \) subject traffic morons organization university georgia , athens lines 22 article stafford stafford winona msus edu stafford vax2 winona msus edu \( john stafford \) writes article athena cs uga edu , ahatcher athena cs uga edu \( allan hatcher \) wrote ca n't make citizens arrest anything felony i'm sure 's true let rephrase file complaint bring person court understand , citizens arrest physical detention person think found difference citizens arrest \( physical detention suspect \) report warrant better \? john stafford minnesota state university winona standard disclaimers apply
csuohio edu \( carl j \) subject test ignore organization cleveland state university x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 lines 3 ignore
car377 cbnewsj cb att com \( charles rogers \) subject best times , worst times organization summary missing screw lines 22 article txd able mkt 3com com , txd esd 3com com \( tom dietrich \) writes convex com \( matthew \) writes 1993apr20 tti com paulb harley tti com \( paul blumstein \) writes turned screw inside mikuni better check screws carb suck one jug piston , valve 've seen happen \? ! \? ! \? mikuni \? \? \? i'm going exploded view 'ol sport , round slide spike , monster old norton mind , ca n't , life see screw , came loose could get jug explode 'em , screws fly away \) chuck rogers car377 torreys att com
fester island com \( mike fester \) subject back breaker , near hit ! ! organization usr local rn organization lines 17 article 1r941o 3tu menudo uh edu inde7wv rosie uh edu writes understand theoretically stop far behind car really actuality avoid incident \? suggestions \? possible , split lanes even n't get way head line , least wo n't rear ended always worry i'm lane , front line , one behind keep eye mirrors also get ready pull hard right , case mike disclaimer opiini h h damn ! h h q w q wq wq ! x \? exit x q c \? quitbye ctrlaltdel q q logout save quit ! quit zz zzzzzz vi man vi l c e x \? help helpquit ! ! man help c c e ! help exit \? quit \? q ctrlshftdel hey , stop l1a
cs colostate edu \( j hamilton \) subject vfr st11 owners get hidden feature nntp posting host handel cs colostate edu organization colorado state university , computer science department keywords lights lines 24 article c61r0b c7 world std com daved world std com \( dave dorfman \) writes well actual ergonomics switch make appear 2 position switch , sure enough deam expected , balance toggle switch center position high low beams go provides nice light coverage road hmmmm noticed sometime ago could virago , since n't read many schematics , n't really think much yes provide excellent coverage , figured would probably draw little much current also figured overlapped prevent blank spot headlight saying switches designed hi lo combination \? jay chrome harley handel cs colostate edu time change oil \? ! \? ! \? ! \? dod 982
bgardner pebbles es com \( blaine gardner \) subject zipper repairs \( tankbag \) nntp posting host 130 187 85 70 reply bgardner dsd es com organization evans sutherland computer corporation lines 44 article isc br com \( carl \) writes bgardner pebbles es com \( blaine gardner \) writes yep , works like charm problem 7 8 years constant use , thinking seeing much eclipse would want install new zipper someone \( think chuck karish \) suggested try trick took couple tries get right amount squish , 's fine 3 years since squished work nylon coil type otoh tried hg concord jacket thursday night really , made tiny adjustment type squeeze really \( \? \( \) hg zipper nylon coil type kind molded plastic teeth \? 've tried nylon type , n't take much squish fix problem found \( broken parts , zipper hard pull \) spreading zipper pull jaws , tried vice grips , usual grip death technique , adjusted closed vice grips snug zipper jaws , released tightened adjusting screw bit couple right amount zipper squish \( tm \) result know spokane even consider trying repair broken zipper closer thingy , must 0 30 part needs 20 tool install 've two zipper pulls fail aerostich suit \( actually accessory ellipse \) , sent replacement pulls free charge n't know brand hg uses , parts available 's plastic replacement pretty simple , break remove plastic knob top zipper keeps pull coming top end slide new zipper pull crimp \( vice grips ! \) replacement zipper stop might try fabric stores see sell replacement parts oh , 's worth , coil type eclipse tankbag also blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com
car377 cbnewsj cb att com \( charles rogers \) subject dogs organization summary relative size dog vs target lines 53 article 93apr20 193958 30419 acs ucalgary ca , parr acs ucalgary ca \( charles parr \) writes article c5pntm 8co cbnewsj cb att com car377 cbnewsj cb att com \( charles rogers \) writes tactic depends effectiveness dog 's conformance psychological norm may actually apply particular dog 've tried success , wo n't work charlie manson dog one 's really , really stupid large irish setter taught yard \( apparently territory \) one day i'm sure playing game game probably kill angry neighbor dispense terrible punishment , dog weighs 150lb maybe , max \? ca n't handle \? problem instability universal gravitational constant day closer got exposed \( still dripping , doubt , last cum canine psychology \) bigger heavier dog appeared become also , recall distribution 150lb one five pound jaw teeth operated two muscles driven 005 ounce brain possessing composed equal parts hunger 5 lb , course , dog , varies place dog deposits regularly tended dog 's owner 's neighbors \( whilst continuously supply , doubt consuming likes folks like \) , presume , thumbs \? grapple tear 's head ! thought time , looked formidable instruments mayhem , realized become weak many hours tapping away ergonomically correct crt keyboard one option left reached toolbox near car craftsman 150 ft lb torque wrench , surely bludgeon dire necessity ever one amazement confusion , setter started shaking rolling grass , feet vanished street , still quivering occasionally looking back seven one blow ! , flexing new found brandishing terrible weapon secure environs domicile later found dog apparently knew along wrench defective , would longer measure torque accurately , sears would n't fix replace interpreted fear fact unmitigated contempt sheesh , even trained attack dog match human , advantages exactly nobody look quite silly \) chuck rogers car377 torreys att com
car377 cbnewsj cb att com \( charles rogers \) subject countersteering , know know question \? organization summary hurt study , braking , accidents lines 36 article mjs zen sys uea ac uk , mjs sys uea ac uk \( mike sixsmith \) writes lotto harvard edu \( jerry lotto \) writes understanding ability swerve essentially absent among accident involved riders hurt study average rider identify countersteering alone provides primary input effect motorcycle lean , even many years practice would agree entirely three paragraphs hurt study make distinction ability swerve failure swerve \? accidents near accidents 've seen , riders almost always stand brakes hard dare , simply instinct brake face danger strong rides everything else hard braking swerving tend mutually exclusive hurt draw conclusions one generally preferable \? apparently instinct brake face danger n't strong instinct freeze nothing face danger hurt found surprising number accident involved motorcyclists n't used brakes prior impact think way 'll ever use countersteering reliably correctly crisis make conscious method directional control ever use , practice constantly , even need turning follow long straight , seem back forth randomly suddenly without obvious need , 's i'm practicing countersteering avoiding imaginary obstacles directly path practice may indeed futile , even milliseconds react , familiar tactic available \( hopefully automatic \) countersteering logic applies braking front brake , course chuck rogers car377 torreys att com
car377 cbnewsj cb att com \( charles rogers \) subject fj1100 1200 owners tankbag suggestions wanted organization summary good tankbag lines 23 bgardner pebbles es com \( blaine gardner \) writes article 1993apr20 195116 ncsu edu martenm chess ncsu edu \( mar marten \) writes looking new tank bag , wondered , follow fj1100 1200 owners , could make suggestions , worked fj 's large , flat gas tank , 'd imagine almost anything would work personally , i'm quite happy eclipse standard tank bag even bought 3 piece k2 set , dk puts sale 50 clear inventory , never seem go away tank bags , guess btw , late paul o' showed trick pair pliers extend life considerably zipper starts separate behind pull \( age wear \) , squash pull body pliers bit tighten back would tossed bag three years ago , fixed kept secure reliable chuck rogers car377 torreys att com
car377 cbnewsj cb att com \( charles rogers \) subject fortune guzzler barred bars ! organization summary god needs lines 17 article 1993apr21 bnr ca , npet bnr ca \( nick pettefar \) writes charles parr , tue , 20 apr 93 21 25 10 gmt wibbled article 1993apr19 4057 bnr ca npet bnr ca \( nick pettefar \) writes satan rode bike \( \? \) would stop help \? true motorcyclist real riding attitude probably aware , sure fire rec moto test attribute god would ride vincent white lightning injection 'd wear one piece leather suit matching boots , helmet gloves \? think \( \) 's worried road rash \? \) chuck rogers car377 torreys att com
car377 cbnewsj cb att com \( charles rogers \) subject shaft drives wheelies organization summary , , lines 27 article wrs 4180 wslack uucp , wrs wslack uucp \( bill slack \) writes various posts shafties ca n't wheelies mike imposible due shaft effect centripital effects rotating shaft counteract tendency front wheel lift ground good point john buddy mine told thing bmw r80gs dumped clutch 5 , \( hey , ito nly revved 7 \) know \? right ! uh , folks , shaft n't diddleysquatpoop get front wheel ground 5 , ferchrissake ! well , think nothing strike bmw key fob feather silly solid lure , somebody comes along right lead swivel ! dog 's going pretty difficult better \( worsen \? \) scheme low , though \) chuck rogers car377 torreys att com
car377 cbnewsj cb att com \( charles rogers \) subject story organization summary behavior keywords party ! ! ! ! lines 86 article csundh30 ursa , csundh30 ursa calvin edu \( charles sundheim \) writes lynn pacesetter com \( lynn e hall \) writes lynn pacesetter com \( lynn e hall \) writes description pretty sounding party still wonder stereotype us erc mean 'we' \( ever \) want stereotype one likes drink beer watch lovely ladies display beautiful bodies like stereotype refering infer negative noticed n't rape , pillage , burn town also left mucho bucks money town thinks town likes us least said lynn hall nos bros tend compose fair piece population ones regard bikers loud , irresponsible , , n't sound like attended , though , \? fact , riders need friends , sounds lot like might whole lynn 's description , especially crowd gets invited back party year year sure n't rape pillage 's relief know gentlemen completely hand justify lesser \? pretty distorted thinking , say seem one bent shape lesser towns people n't n't either , maybe n't amount anything threatening damaging harmless good among consenting adults thing really bothered description knee deep empty beer cans street , maybe town plan deal since helped set party first place lived previous visits established record mutual cooperation good intentions , 'd certainly rather stick around party go riding night impaired maybe get hurt killed oh i'm sorry , noticed left mucho bucks \( money \) nevermind criticism , line forgot one leaves mucho bucks \( money \) behavior permissable , perhaps even justified n't hurt anyone , parties party benefit consider entire activity benign harmless , needs permit justify \? \? need \? keep mind ones could give ! biker gets killed , elected officials institute draconian legislation \( helmet laws , gun controls , etc \) , ones n't respect rights roads respect rest time ironically , particular probably minority n't happen fit stereotype describe 've developed friendly long term mutually beneficial relationship group motorcyclists , n't burdened mc ignorance general population need continue \? need exists , surely must come within continue wear stigma badge , next time whining effect values , remember probably behavior self righteous like kept bay long well , got self righteous part right , anyway chuck rogers car377 torreys att com might heard run dangerous crowd , ai n't pretty , ai n't proud , might bit loud , ah , never hurt one , know good die young
car377 cbnewsj cb att com \( charles rogers \) subject shaft drives wheelies organization summary another one bites dust lines 19 article wayne orwig worwig atlantaga ncr com , wayne orwig atlantaga ncr com \( wayne orwig \) writes possible wheelie motorcycle shaft drive \? mike imposible due shaft effect centripital effects rotating shaft counteract tendency front wheel lift ground well last two motorcycles shaft driven wheelie rear gear climb ring gear lift rear gives odd feel , still wheelies feeding frenzy ! ! ! ah , 'tis april rec moto newbies ! catch want , 'll make ! chuck rogers car377 torreys att com
uk sun com \( roger collier \) subject paint jobs uk organization sun microsystems lines 25 distribution world reply uk sun com nntp posting host uk sun com article zen sys uea ac uk , mjs sys uea ac uk \( mike sixsmith \) writes lisa alex com \( lisa rowlands \) writes anyone recommend good place reasonably priced bike paint jobs , preferably essentially london area try dream machine , 've seen examples work looks pretty good 're though dream machine quality ai n't used kinetic art great paint jobs n't know still around roger collier uk sun com \( \) sun microsystems , h coventry , england u \( 44 \) 203 dod 226 keeper gsxr1100 list
mjs sys uea ac uk \( mike sixsmith \) subject please tell 're permenant scratches ! organization university east anglia lines 22 catherine barbara saum cs20 andrew cmu edu writes way wax dull finish \( minor \) \? passngering fiance 's bandit , hip pack rubbed tail left nasty dull finish teeny scratches way get rid \? buff \? wax \? help ! car accessory shops sell stuff called cut , fine cutting paste paint , remove dull finish minor also remove traffic film stuff probably n't realise , give original shine sometimes react badly metallic paint , though , try carefully going town stuff afterwards apply wax polish , well btw n't confuse cut cutting paste used grinding valves principle 's vastly different mike
csuohio edu \( carl j \) subject bmw 2 frame set sale organization cleveland state university x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 lines 26 sale trade ! ! ! bmw frame misc , converted fork package includes frame , swingarm fork final drive \( 27 8 \) rear fender , front fender , large tank steel wheels laced w ss spokes , one new rim , one ec used rim brackets , brake , etc colour scheme used original bmw optional bristol grey items painted rigid section \( needs , rigid section bent received , mounted frame \) , swingarm headlight shell used finish non painted items desired done holt design included engine , gearbox , , seat clean project project terminated due lack time \( \) engine used transferred another project would prefer sell package whole negotiable included package , separate painted items willing take 2 spares trade e mail inquiries thanx carl
coburnn spot colorado edu \( nicholas coburn \) subject buying 1992 suzuki advice wanted keywords suzuki nntp posting host spot colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 27 ssc sas upenn edu \( andrew white \) writes hello , net readers looking little net advice 've got eye '92 suzuki local dealer bike 's got 3 , 200 miles looks mint condition dealer asking bit less 2 , 800 good price \? n't access blue book lazy go library dealer letting test ride week blue book says wholesale , retail sounds like getting pretty fair price \( assuming nice condition \) andrew white univ pennsylvania \( edu breath \) sas upenn edu dod '82 honda sabre v45 nick coburn dod 6425 ama coburnn spot colorado edu
karen angelo amd com \( karen black \) subject touring southwest organization advanced micro devices , santa clara , ca lines 21 bgardner pebbles es com \( blaine gardner \) writes kim fatcity cts com \( kim sharpe \) writes us touring utah mid june see canyons helpful hints stay things see avoid plans see bryce , zion , arches grand close point additional trip required \? well , 's closer bryce bryce arches 'd spend lot time studying maps , 's lot ca n't get area might want hit grand canyon way california , loop around moab arches , back towards bryce zion way home make sure ride us 12 capitol reef bryce , 's number top 10 roads lists highway 12 great road sure stop anasazi \( sp \) village museum near boulder creek interesting lifestyle \) views dixie national forest stunning karen black
mjs sys uea ac uk \( mike sixsmith \) subject countersteering , know know question \? organization university east anglia distribution net lines 11 lotto laura harvard edu \( jerry lotto \) writes yes , specifically ability understanding technique absent hurt measure ability riders swerve \?
gaijin ale japan sun com \( john little nihon sun repair depot \) subject , police read stuff \? organization nihon sun microsystems atsugi technical centre japan lines 15 nntp posting host ale japan sun com summary finally spills beans blue baron legend article athena cs uga edu ahatcher athena cs uga edu \( allan hatcher \) writes well , goes lurking long time , 'll announce yes , i'm enemy sorry allan , unless happen guy watches v 's driving white toyota route 129 atsugi , 're even close enemy ! ! john little gaijin japan sun com sun microsystems atsugi , japan
prange nickel ucs indiana edu \( henry prange \) subject black reflector tape \? nntp posting host nickel ucs indiana edu organization indiana university lines 12 got sample black reflector material , maybe \? black reflects silver angle incidence shallow whoever got sold sells kits fit bmw \( brands \? \) luggage fenders n't know sample kits seemed expensive , recall henry prange biker physiology iu sch med , , dod 0821 bmwmoa gsi 215 ride '92 r100gs '91 rx 7 conv cage 2 '91 explorer cage 2 lie , cheat steal , mostly little , sometimes lot relax
jjb dtc hp com \( jim brewer \) subject daytona nntp posting host dtc hp com organization hp design technology center , santa clara , ca lines 4 article 569 news dtc hp com jjb dtc hp com \( jim brewer \) writes russell major problems getting onto banking chuck graves , believe
cookson mbunix mitre org \( cookson \) subject wanted police officers answer posting nntp posting host mbunix mitre org organization mitre corporation , bedford , lines 29 article viking ponderous cc iastate edu viking iastate edu \( dan sorenson \) writes get verbal warning 146 55 cock ! story obviously complete fabrication , 'll show ames , road leads little town establishes story takes place iowa gilbert gilbert one stop light , tells something gotten bike back together , thought 'd take short ride check things heading town , went slow pace , speed limit , iowa \? ! \? ! \? come dan , dumb think \? could least thrown llama tennis ball reference hell , n't even get speed right dean ps \) dean cookson dcookson mitre org 617 271 2714 dod 207 ama 573534 mitre corp burlington rd , bedford , 01730 kotnml kotb road shepherd shall stop '92 vfr750f sam eliott , road hogs mtv 1993 '88 bianchi limited
cookson mbunix mitre org \( cookson \) subject dod pins ! nntp posting host mbunix mitre org organization mitre corporation , bedford , lines 17 article 1993apr23 1 skcla monsanto com skcla monsanto com writes bad news right placed order , company upped minimum order manufacturing got wire \( order 115 pins \) , result low number pins , relegated 'll get runs bin result , seems may another 4 5 weeks name number pin place would think 115 people calling bitch orders placed getting done first might speed things along dean dean cookson dcookson mitre org 617 271 2714 dod 207 ama 573534 mitre corp burlington rd , bedford , 01730 kotnml kotb road shepherd shall stop '92 vfr750f sam eliott , road hogs mtv 1993 '88 bianchi limited
cookson mbunix mitre org \( cookson \) subject vfr st11 owners get hidden feature keywords lights nntp posting host mbunix mitre org organization mitre corporation , bedford , lines 21 article c61r0b c7 world std com daved world std com \( dave dorfman \) writes enjoying lunch saturday milford nh assortment nedod folks dean cookson \( yes left country , yet \) mentioned wiring diagram vfr750 shows light switch three position switch cb750 switch continuity section wiring diagram looks something like hl l h x x low x x x \( n \) x x high dean dean cookson dcookson mitre org 617 271 2714 dod 207 ama 573534 mitre corp burlington rd , bedford , 01730 kotnml kotb road shepherd shall stop '92 vfr750f sam eliott , road hogs mtv 1993 '88 bianchi limited
cus cam ac uk \( \) subject wanted uk bmw r80 insurance tips nntp posting host bootes cus cam ac uk organization u cambridge , england lines 18 article 1993apr21 infodev cam ac uk , cus cam ac uk \( \) writes hi , i'm market buying bmw ideal would r80 rs 'd interested r80 sale age problem i'm interested good example without massive amount miles one well maintained intend keep well time would also like know anyone sound advice regards insurance old , licence 9 years , accidents claims convictions old enough get bmw owners club insurance yet wait next year \? ian future beemer owner article repeated due large amount articles since 1st sent
asphaug lpl arizona edu \( erik asphaug x2773 \) subject maxima chain wax organization lunar planetary laboratory , tucson az lines 21 article 4dn myrddin imat com nelson seahunt imat com \( michael nelson \) writes article 1993apr23 research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com \( chris behanna \) writes spray chain wax onto rollers occassionally , rust problem regularly michael maybe accidentally sealed water \? cleaned chain thoroughly , took short ride dry heat bit , sank deep rollers formed good seal outside rust , live tucson ! b h e b k e dod 88888 asphaug hindmost lpl arizona edu '90 kawi 550 zephyr \( erik asphaug \) '86 bmw r80gs u l h e r e r
thompson apple com \( paul thompson \) subject changing oil virago \( yamaha vs honda opinions \) organization apple computer , inc , cupertino , california lines 19 nntp posting host apple com aa963 freenet carleton ca \( lloyd carr \) writes previous article , phj remus rutgers edu \( p ju \) says nuet ke pts mot com \( keith nuetzman x3153 p7625 \) writes brake pedal , c c \) 've pretty much decided never get particular model unless someone else wants change oil filter compared 5 minute change used honda , design flaw oversight eyes sure n't know bike worked sure n't virago 've owned 750 1100 filter change 5 mins nothing removed well , watching several denizen 's dismantle laurie 's virago attempt change oil ride 'n feed years back pretty funny site surely combined wisdom folks n't things hard way , \? paul thompson apple computer
thompson apple com \( paul thompson \) subject back breaker , near hit ! ! organization apple computer , inc , cupertino , california lines 29 nntp posting host apple com inde7wv rosie uh edu writes hear screeching tires dart eyes mirrors realize 's flying right behind , panic pop clutch stall bike luckily guy stops foot behind rear wheel understand theoretically stop far behind car really actuality avoid incident \? suggestions \? experience describe n't like sit bike gear figure 's chance 'll startled way stall bike figure likely chance 'll unable escape situation extra time needed put bike gear concentrate avoiding situations rather making split second evasive split lanes i'm end line \( unfortunately legal country \) ca n't split \( perhaps n't room \) stop near one side lane easy escape , leave bike gear next car stopped watch mirrors mean time make sure ! whether really would time move car fail stop , n't find yet cars annoying racing behind braking , hard tell planning brake ! summary , position easy exit , watch mirrors 's clear paul thompson apple computer
ivan erich triumf ca \( ivan reid \) subject electricty organization triumf tri university meson facility lines 17 distribution world nntp posting host erich triumf ca news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article mimsy umd edu , leavitt cs umd edu \( mr bill \) writes maven mavenry altcit eskimo com \( norman hamer \) writes nh 1 \) trying figure way put halogen beam cb360t nh easy ways \( e slip bulb replacement \) \? honda employed sealed beam interchangeable anything else , far could ever tell 've owned two years , always one biggest i'm sure far went , two bikes \( , think , \) able pop insert directly original housing \( held roughly w shaped springs \) inserts used 55 60w halogen bulbs , great , although mr bill later indicates may much drain charging system ivan reid , paul scherrer institute , ch ivan cvax psi ch gsx600f , rg250wd si 2 66 porsche pass ! dod 484
microsoft com \( chris \) subject first bike \? \? organization microsoft corporation lines 39 rec motorcycles james leo belliveau jbc9 andrew cmu edu writes serious motorcycle enthusiast without motorcycle , put bluntly , sucks really would like advice would good starter bike know one thing however , need make first bike good one , buying second time soon question specifically interested racing bikes , \( cbr 600 f2 , gsx r 750 \) know may sound kind crazy considering 've never bike , responsible , fast learner , love responsible love \? believe 's contradiction terms unless 're really brave \( read reckless \) 500cc sport bike go way faster dare least first year riding getting really overkill , 'll never even want use following bikes bought \( repaired ! \) cheaply , easy novice manage , plenty high performance kawasaki ex 500 honda vf 500 interceptor suzuki gs 0 time ex 500 full throttle way sooner 're ready \) something small 250 , 'd probably wishing power pretty quickly \( unless 's rgv \) , i'm saying 're 100 certain kill immediately gsxr 750 plenty people started riding bikes done fine saying 's waste money , waste perfectly good plastic drop thing learning balance stopping 'll never get throttle half open anyway , spend extra 2000 bucks \? chris
mjs sys uea ac uk \( mike sixsmith \) subject johs dhhalden \( 3 \) last organization university east anglia lines 18 fmg bt co uk \( pete young \) writes nick pettefar \( npet bnr ca \) wrote tsk , tsk , tsk another newbie bites dust , eh \? 'll learn newbie sorry disappoint , far internet goes baghdad still bag based previous postings , apparently devoid humour , sarcasm , wit , apparent capacity walk chew gum time , assumed serious mea culpa cannot serious ! ! personally think nick 's postings best thing wreck moto
mjs sys uea ac uk \( mike sixsmith \) subject good reasons wave organization university east anglia lines 10 jlevine rd hydro ca \( angel levine \) writes anyone , driving cage , ever waved bikers \? get urge , 've never actually done , 've driven cage bike park , thinking riding bike
behanna syl nj nec com \( chris behanna \) subject maxima chain wax organization nec systems laboratory , inc lines 23 article 4dn myrddin imat com nelson seahunt imat com \( michael nelson \) writes article 1993apr23 research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com \( chris behanna \) writes spray chain wax onto rollers occassionally , rust problem regularly interesting say n't seen wear 1000 miles 've used stuff ninja , bike stays soooo clean 'll check back thousand miles 're subject , find endless chain , dealer \( , type master links acceptable \) \? later , chris behanna dod 114 1983 h fxwg wide glide jubilee 's red lady behanna syl nj nec com 1975 cb360t baby bike disclaimer would nec 1991 zx 11 needs name agree anyway \? raised pack wild corn dogs
bobm brimstone \( bob morley \) subject please tell 're permenant scratches ! nntp posting host brimstone organization unipalm ltd , 216 cambridge science park , cambridge cb4 4wa , uk lines 20 article andrew cmu edu , catherine barbara saum cs20 andrew cmu edu writes passngering fiance 's bandit , hip pack rubbed tail left nasty dull finish teeny scratches way get rid \? buff \? wax \? help ! realised yet hoping fix \? 're planning use cut careful sunlight fades paint cut removes surface layer , older bike sunny live colour cut panel wont match rest bike bob bob morley pipex \( public ip exchange \) dod 549 216 cambridge science park milton road cambridge , cb4 4wa ely district mcc england
drinckes tssc wlg nec co jp \( doug rinckes \) subject shaft drives wheelies nntp posting host 133 206 251 21 reply drinckes tssc wlg nec co jp organization telecommunications systems support centre , new zealand lines 26 article megatek com , randy megatek com \( randy davis \) writes article 1993apr22 asl dl nec com drinckes tssc wlg nec co jp writes course , people seem acting smug probably chain final drive \( , know , less efficient higher maintenance \) probably n't know answer start thread go change laws physics \? \) according numbers used see bandied around , shaft drive order 95 97 efficient , chain drive closer 99 seems makes chain drive efficient , hmmmmm \? \? \? granted , shaft lot less maintenance , fine , n't mind less performance \) \) randy davis email randy megatek com zx 11 00072 pilot uunet ! ucsd ! megatek ! randy ok regularly ride bike within 2 's maximum capability \? \( note idiot go flat bike \) anyway , efficient \? shaft drive much efficient solid \( erect \) lump metal floppy \( , \) chain doug rinckes drinckes tssc wlg nec co jp new zealand tssc ltd 1976 bmw r100s 1960 bmw r60 1940 indian
drinckes tssc wlg nec co jp \( doug rinckes \) subject shaft drives wheelies nntp posting host 133 206 251 21 reply drinckes tssc wlg nec co jp organization telecommunications systems support centre , new zealand lines 23 article unbvm1 csd unb ca , c70a000 c70a unb ca \( \) writes article hpcc01 corp hp com gharriso hpcc01 corp hp com \( graeme harrison \) writes hpcc01 rec motorcycles xlyx vax5 cit cornell edu 2 48 pm apr 19 , 1993 possible wheelie motorcycle shaft drive \? mike terry '82 virago 've seen 'em , real question , one wheelie lead wing \? , high would front wheel ground \? wheelies lead wings possible , ai n't easy , \( , relation \? \) great uncle several times removed tells high , high want 'em \? modulation n't exactly easiest thing world , says guy 57 years old well , apparently get past 6 inches , luggage shifts back , passenger slides back , dog ends hanging onto top rack , go way 's flat 's ass , front wheel straight sky impressive , hard tail lights \) doug rinckes drinckes tssc wlg nec co jp new zealand tssc ltd 1976 bmw r100s 1960 bmw r60 1940 indian
kevinh hslrswi hasler ascom ch \( kevinh \) subject happy easter ! originator kevinh nath reply kevinh hasler ascom ch organization ascom hasler ag lines 27 article dcs qmw ac uk , davide dcs qmw ac uk \( dave edmondson \) writes lotus looks set management gm n't happy elan late pricey write elan development costs may able sell sensible price read gm wants keep design part lotus lose car production , seem remember , main problem elan caused gm 's insistence elan designed \( significantly \) us market caused major design production headaches think legal clause rr name , regardless owns must british company owner e ba sell company name kevinh hasler ascom ch n't believe ba anything rr 's seperate company rr aero engine company 's vickers rolls royce cars quite true brain fade part david edmondson davide dcs qmw ac uk kevinh hasler ascom ch
loon cs umn edu \( scott alan brandt \) subject want borrow rent bike boston summer nntp posting host loon cs umn edu organization university minnesota , minneapolis , csci dept distribution usa lines 29 summer \( july 20 \) wife \( michelle \) boston attending brother 's wedding wedding planning motor bar harbor , maine visit relatives days summer would made could find bike \( bikes \) borrow rent ride bar harbor back 's important details 've riding 11 years , \( bikes past 7 years \) , michelle riding past 6 years \( bikes \) , 've involved one accident caused cage driver running stop sign , currently bmw , michelle owns yamaha virago 700 , prefer cruising racing , 've toured fair amount , 're licensed insured , 're nice people , anyone bike \( bikes \) , second one would virago something else equally low seat \) would willing loan us 3 4 days july , michelle would eternally grateful addition friendship , would also use bikes ever pass minneapolis exchange , would happy take guest dinner evening wild bike stories , might even willing cough money improvements bike \( \) , like new tires something also , information bike boston area would greatly appreciated thanks , scott brandt
simmon nist gov \( eric simmon \) subject opinion means lines 56 nntp posting host maxwell nist gov dsc3jfs nmrdc1 nmrdc nnmc navy mil \( jim small \) writes article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu \( andrew infante \) writes since occurance , 've paid many dollars renumerance , taken drunk class , , yes , listened self righteous assholes like think rest world 've never little dd suaree us n't fucking stupid cock sucking asshole 's n't little dd suaree i'm soo impressed 've spend precious little dollars make stupid act go fuck friends killed drunk driving assholes like infante 2 children friends drunk driving assholes like infante 2 's self righteous asshole , weak willed fuck head \? hate 3b2 3b2 bite jim , hope never drive \( ride \) drinking taking prescription drugs n't get enough sleep night upset girlfriend n't feel like brain talking body think seca want break lap record situations potential harm \( read death \) people make never endangered someone else driving vehicle unsafe manner , go right ahead bitch mr infante misuse motor vehicle otherwise , think driving responsibilities sorry loss friends , could well idiot bought volvo problems falling asleep wheel eric simmon nist gov
cbnewsl cb att com \( kevin l stell \) subject squids dealers organization distribution na lines 47 yesterday , friend asked accompany local motorcycle dealer since last rode \( 10 years \) , never bought new bike dealer follows experience visit observation behavior customers sales personel background ride group friends , mainly cruiser type bikes friend hell bent getting intruder seen used ones wanted see new ones going , happened upon dealer sold suzuki yamaha place fairly busy , bit happened upon intruders , sold signs friend bitten well appeared friend started chewing fat , outside next thing know , see 3 4 sport bikes pull could stereo type type riders \( backward ball hat , oakley , iq 40 \) , wo n't well went inside , n't think much figured went back see firmly implanted friends back , noticed hormone gang talking salesdroids managers lot 's laughter , jokes etc big deal part concerned hg shop personel busy customers went back , said hg members fired rides obligatory 600 beasts point , one decided see much rubber katana 600 could deposit drive squids , thought appalled salesdroids manager condoned behavior , , point betting long could keep pull rode onto busy street around rush hour girl riding pillion another bike , seemed rather hormonal display , urged pilot quickly catch others followed , making sure could heard well felt felt embarassed point motorcyclist felt eyes cages , witnessing display , glancing dealers lot two wheels needless say , friend felt little uncomfortable left turn frustration go ride peacefully , clear anger hope cop following home , open mind n't associate btw , ca n't afford new bike
bih \( \) subject bike vacation states \? \? organization bergen college engineering , bergen , norway x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 25 summer i'm going use vacation \( riding \) states questions would like post since i'm norway wondering much cost rent bike states \? \( i'm going san san jose area ride around \( \) \) might noticed still n't made plans know places ought visit please e mail \( wanna dod \( \) bih \( \) since hurt life erratic parrot , , transmitting static carpet died , palm collapsed cat keeps poo thing keeps sane talking shoe shoe
speedy engr latech edu \( speedy mercer \) subject ok , little hasty organization louisiana tech university lines 19 nntp posting host bhm116e spc engr latech edu article unisql uucp ray unisql uucp \( ray shea \) writes article 1993apr20 010734 megatek com randy megatek com writes perhaps dwi lousiana confined liquor \? everything louisiana related liquor eating , sleeping , walking , talking , church , state , life , death , everything dare make accusation ! many sober , non state ! n't busy unloading beer truck week end , might come talk wit ! b dod 8177 technician \( dr speed \) student stolen taglines hey ! go \? n't think naahh
buffalo wam umd edu \( duncan sterling \) subject '93 wing ding \? nntp posting host wam umd edu organization university maryland , college park lines 9 wing ding xv take place louisville , kentucky 15 june 18 june info , register , contact , p box , phoenix , az , , tel \( 602 \) 269 duncan sterling buffalo wam umd edu , , university maryland ! slim dr college park , md 2 strokes quicker 4 anonymous
sturges oasys dt navy mil \( richard sturges \) subject help adjust tappits reply sturges oasys dt navy mil \( richard sturges \) organization carderock division , nswc , bethesda , md lines 16 rec motorcycles , sun soe clarkson edu \( matthew sheppard \) writes local 'experts' say 's tappits need adjusting soon attempt would like advice anyone shop manual read procedure places anything need \? problems anyone else encountered \? would recommend factory service manual , experienced get haynes \( sp \? \) also make sure bike cooled least 6 hours since run read books questions could mail also , careful tightening valve cover bolts take little torque breaking one disaster rich sturges falls church , va
subject zx 11 manolo \( manuel arrevola \) nntp posting host taf fundesco es x newsreader tin 1 1 10 lines 10 recommend zx 11 \( standard mufflers \) instead standard one \( idle 38 , main 155 \) cheers manuel arrevola velasco e mail manolo taf fundesco es fundesco zx 11 calle , 61 dr 600 madrid dod 1033 tel 341 n't waste time , express
rdc8 cunixf cc columbia edu \( robert castro \) subject borderline ! nntp posting host cunixf cc columbia edu reply rdc8 cunixf cc columbia edu \( robert castro \) organization columbia university lines 18 article 1993apr21 sue cc uregina ca franks hercules cs uregina ca \( derek franks \) writes wondering anyone net knows 1993 wing ding \? , would please e mail post info \? 've never one free time summer considering attending anyone else \? first post , dod '82 \( 2nd one \) getting close ! rob castro email rdc8 cunixf cc columbia edu live today 1983 kz550ltd phone \( 212 \) 854 7617 today live ! dod nyc 1 new york , new york , usa rc \( tm \)
rdc8 cunixf cc columbia edu \( robert castro \) subject law order dod keywords dod nntp posting host cunixf cc columbia edu reply rdc8 cunixf cc columbia edu \( robert castro \) organization columbia university distribution usa lines 12 anyone catch tv show law order last night \( least nyc \) \? law enforcement people , needed catch member dod \( department doom \) inflicting computer virus hospital 's mainframe ended killing two people wrong amounts medication given anyhow , department doom list \? rob castro email rdc8 cunixf cc columbia edu live today 1983 kz550ltd phone \( 212 \) 854 7617 today live ! dod nyc 1 new york , new york , usa rc \( tm \)
groh nu cs fsu edu \( jim groh \) subject looking movies w bikes organization florida state university computer science department reply groh nu cs fsu edu lines 32 article cassidy 51 0 elan rowan edu cassidy elan rowan edu \( kyle cassidy \) writes article csundh30 ursa csundh30 ursa calvin edu \( charles sundheim \) writes assembling info film criticism class final project man , every time thread comes , start jumping screaming ' easy wheels ! easy wheels ! ' date , seems like i'm one ever seen 's absolutely hysterical basic plot reporter searching ring blow road \( hot \) gang babe bikers leather rescued wrecked car desert xtian biker band lead ex viet nam vet steel plate head gives visions time time soon discover gang 'o babes kidnapping children raised wolves \( reasoning behind complex \) , set stop restore justice order world one 5 funniest movies ever seen life kyle cassidy cassidy rowan edu fire guns ! dod 760 actually saw movie three months ago , n't called easy wheels something else escapes moment rent video hoot , class plan 9 outer space jim groh groh sig cs fsu edu dod hog new improved 1959 xlh 900 1982 1989 xlh 883 1990 xlh 1200 smaller sig
bradw newbridge com \( brad warkentin \) subject good reasons wave nntp posting host thor organization newbridge networks corporation lines 25 jlevine rd hydro ca \( jody levine \) writes anyone , driving cage , ever waved bikers \? get urge , 've never actually done yup whenever cage \( often riding weather ie snow \) find arm kinda finger wave works best sport bikes arm works best harleys similar wave bike let 's see many posts takes someone selectively quote article yah mean like get urge , 've never actually done done \? jody would never , ever even dream assuming young lady refined breeding taste would even consider things mean matters even discussed , civilized beings , confidence , two us , even perhaps got excited thinking know bj bradw newbridge com sig plan clue dod 255
ucs indiana edu \( \) subject kaw kz650 owners tankbag stuff \? nntp posting host educ indiana edu organization indiana university lines 5 wondering kind \( brand , name , etc \) would best bike thanks advice ucs indiana edu
cookson mbunix mitre org \( cookson \) subject maxima chain wax nntp posting host mbunix mitre org organization mitre corporation , bedford , lines 18 article 1993apr25 1922 research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com \( chris behanna \) writes interesting say n't seen wear 1000 miles 've used stuff ninja , bike stays soooo clean related note \( since ups lost chain wax i'm still using pj 1 goo \) , found great stuff clean chain spooge wheels 's called goo gone cleaned spooge rear wheel faster simple green cleaned bug guts headlight wonderful stuff recommend officially dod wonder spooge \( tm \) product dean cookson dcookson mitre org 617 271 2714 dod 207 ama 573534 mitre corp burlington rd , bedford , 01730 kotnml kotb road shepherd shall stop '92 vfr750f sam eliott , road hogs mtv 1993 '88 bianchi limited
frankb sad hp com \( frank ball \) subject help adjust tappits organization , x newsreader tin version 1 1 4 pl6 lines 14 jeff nichols \( jcn rice edu \) wrote speaking shims , would clearance valves get smaller , e need use thinner shim \? valves cylinder head faster shims wear frank ball 1ur frankb sad hp com \( 707 \) 794 4168 work , hewlett packard \( 707 \) 794 3844 fax , \( 707 \) 538 3693 home 1212 valley house drive it175 , xt350 , seca 750 , '62 f 100 , pl510 park ca 4999 , law , ama , dod , i'm nra
asphaug lpl arizona edu \( erik asphaug x2773 \) subject maxima chain wax organization lunar planetary laboratory , tucson az lines 10 article 1993apr26 linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org \( cookson \) writes found great stuff clean chain spooge wheels 's called goo gone cleaned spooge rear wheel faster simple green cleaned bug guts headlight wonderful stuff recommend officially dod wonder spooge \( tm \) product think get head shops i'm kidding although seems appropriate selling simple green '86 \( erik asphaug \)
mjs sys uea ac uk \( mike sixsmith \) subject countersteering faq please post organization university east anglia lines 46 egreen east sun com \( ed green pixel cruncher \) writes article zen sys uea ac uk , mjs sys uea ac uk \( mike sixsmith \) writes ed 1 us argue gyroscopes , etc , throughly understand ed technique countersteering including ones think countersteer way corner \? \? ed well way decreasing radius corner , anyway maybe riding around ever decreasing circle lies eventually leads truth official line \( though doubts \) front brake applied first , followed rear brake , idea avoid locking rear weight transfer takes place 's official line taught rider education classes refering , also n't teach countersteering , question quality classes , though unfortunately official line one adhere want get full licence examiner 's guidelines laid government , basic rider education courses choice follow surprises none rider groups , either mag make much noise fact riding test requires ride three feet time order pass , front brake must applied rear , keep looking shoulder time \( instead justified \) 's probably , ca n't think moment riding test could bit include real world survival skills less woefully simplistic crap contains , accident figures would \( imho \) reduce still n't think include countersteering knowledge test though \)
daimi aau dk \( jesper \) subject vfr st11 owners get hidden feature keywords lights organization daimi computer science department , aarhus university , denmark lines 22 cookson mbunix mitre org \( cookson \) writes article c61r0b c7 world std com daved world std com \( dave dorfman \) writes enjoying lunch saturday milford nh assortment nedod folks dean cookson \( yes left country , yet \) mentioned wiring diagram vfr750 shows light switch three position switch cb750 switch continuity section wiring diagram looks something like hl l h x x low x x x \( n \) x x high '78 cx500 first thought wiring diagram n't fit machine \) dean jb
ak296 yfn ysu edu \( john r daker \) subject maxima chain wax wheelies organization st elizabeth hospital , youngstown , oh lines 20 reply ak296 yfn ysu edu \( john r daker \) nntp posting host yfn ysu edu article 93apr20 211127 44984 acs ucalgary ca parr acs ucalgary ca \( charles parr \) writes bought , tried , truly , miracle spooge chain lubed , wheel clean , 1000km would like nominate maxima chain wax another official \( tm \) dod product choice dod 650 darkman significant problems face cannot solved level thinking created albert einstein eternal champion
tanner cerritos edu subject posted gif bmw r100s organization cerritos college , norwalk ca lines 26 would care see close ups different angles , post others b p also would happy submit one cerritos someone wants write tell would prefer picture since motorcycles n't post , rather similar looking \( e r100s 's alike different \) , people ultimately interesting archive policy txt already picture machine readable format \( gif preferred \) , ftp cerritos edu account password , binary mode notify mail mail uuencoded tanner cerritos edu please include one two line description inclusion txt btw , charlie smith 's pictures available sea bass sears scs8 cunixb cc columbia edu dod 516 stanley , id interestingly , 've stanley , id motorcycle nice little town , nice road getting bruce bruce tanner \( 310 \) 860 x 596 tanner cerritos edu cerritos college norwalk , ca dod nomad 007
syma sussex ac uk \( leigh dodd \) subject help uk law please organization university sussex x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 31 greetings , anyone let know status uk law riding motorcycles used ride one 12 years ago never took dot test \( one whole list things wished done young \) , passed car driving test travel brighton every day i'm getting pissed traffic road works thinking getting bike \( n't laugh \) get take test , get bigger one \( 400 600 cc \) told n't get full licence \? thanks advanced leigh leigh dodd engineering applied science \( \) university sussex , brighton bn1 9qh , uk phone 44 273 ext fax 44 273 janet uk ac internet ac uk
gaijin ale japan sun com \( john little nihon sun repair depot \) subject personal problems \( , police read \) organization nihon sun microsystems atsugi technical centre japan lines 12 nntp posting host ale japan sun com article earth cs utexas edu mcguire cs utexas edu \( tommy marcus mcguire \) writes ca n't haul big around bike boast \? john little gaijin japan sun com sun microsystems atsugi , japan
tanner cerritos edu subject touring southwest organization cerritos college , norwalk ca lines 14 article 1993apr24 dsd es com , bgardner pebbles es com \( blaine gardner \) writes make sure ride us 12 capitol reef bryce , 's number top 10 roads lists ever put gas stations us 12 \? rode 1987 , skipped bryce canyon rode 100 miles seeing gas station torrey awesome road , recall riding narrow ridge 9 , 000 \? 10 , 000 \? feet bruce bruce tanner \( 310 \) 860 x 596 tanner cerritos edu cerritos college norwalk , ca dod nomad 007
ak296 yfn ysu edu \( john r daker \) subject please tell 're permenant scratches ! organization st elizabeth hospital , youngstown , oh lines 23 reply ak296 yfn ysu edu \( john r daker \) nntp posting host yfn ysu edu previous article , mjs sys uea ac uk \( mike sixsmith \) says catherine barbara saum cs20 andrew cmu edu writes way wax dull finish \( minor \) \? passngering fiance 's bandit , hip pack rubbed tail left nasty dull finish teeny scratches way get rid \? buff \? wax \? help ! okay , 's get drill sanding disk use , say 100 disk go low rpm n't drill , try coarse steel wool brake fluid dot 4 uncanny knack removing paint imperfections oh , i'm responsible misuse either techniques dod 650 darkman significant problems face cannot solved level thinking created albert einstein eternal champion
ivan erich triumf ca \( ivan reid \) subject well blow yuk , yuk , yuk organization triumf tri university meson facility lines 9 distribution world nntp posting host erich triumf ca news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article 93113 wuvmd wustl edu , brad thone c09615bt wuvmd writes n't done , dangerous takes getting used read ed 's list yep ed 's list 45 degrees , wind 's strong ride \) ivan reid , paul scherrer institute , ch ivan cvax psi ch gsx600f , rg250wd si 2 66 american degrees european ! dod 484
arnie magnus acs ohio state edu \( arnie skurow \) subject black reflector tape \? nntp posting host photon magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 18 article cronkite central sun com doc webrider central sun com writes months ago , one motorcycle mags , article mentioned reflector tape supposed available thru bmw idea tape would look black sunlight , reflect colors night anyone come across bmw source \? terry , president local bmw club \( beemers \) sells type tape comes strip approximately 3 x 12 cut sizes needed call terry \( 614 \) 837 1960 \( columbus , ohio \) arnie
infante acpub duke edu \( andrew infante \) subject opinion means organization duke university durham , n c lines 27 nntp posting host north1 acpub duke edu article berkeley ca us berkeley ca us \( andrew scott \) writes infante acpub duke edu \( andrew infante \) writes since occurance , 've paid many dollars renumerance , taken drunk class , , yes , listened self righteous assholes like think rest world 've never little dd suaree devil made ! yeah ! found inside worm yeah , 's ! \( actually vodka gordon 's remember correctly n't even buy \( course , 's probably reason drank much night never \) andy infante listen everybody says , fact remains '71 bmw r60 5 've got get thing dod 2426 joan sutherland opinions , dammit , nothing anyone else ! ! !
infante acpub duke edu \( andrew infante \) subject ok , little hasty organization duke university durham , n c lines 34 nntp posting host north1 acpub duke edu article jnmoyne moustic lbl gov jnmoyne lbl gov \( jean noel moyne \) writes article sixgun east sun com , egreen east sun com \( ed green pixel cruncher \) wrote bill nc house lower level 1 08 faces stiff opposition senate recently , highway patrol took opposition senators gave shots , hit 07 , put course dodging cones failed , probably change votes result try course drinks \? n't see senator fat driven around good driver mater many drinks yeah , really , shit ! like jerk could n't win election democrat switches republican year past election takes terry sanford bitch moan campaigning typical nc senate house races swear , 'd kick jesse head ever got chance maybe 'd get fucking clue rest world lives andy infante listen everybody says , fact remains '71 bmw r60 5 've got get thing dod 2426 joan sutherland opinions , dammit , nothing anyone else ! ! !
infante acpub duke edu \( andrew infante \) subject wanted police officers answer posting organization duke university durham , n c lines 10 nntp posting host north1 acpub duke edu really expect cop answer honestly \? \( first gotta expect cop honest 's another story \) andy infante listen everybody says , fact remains '71 bmw r60 5 've got get thing dod 2426 joan sutherland opinions , dammit , nothing anyone else ! ! !
infante acpub duke edu \( andrew infante \) subject shaft drives wheelies organization duke university durham , n c lines 24 nntp posting host north1 acpub duke edu article stafford stafford winona msus edu stafford vax2 winona msus edu \( john stafford \) writes article wrs 4180 wslack uucp , wrs wslack uucp \( bill slack \) wrote uh , folks , shaft n't diddleysquatpoop get front wheel ground 5 , ferchrissake ! statement true spirit list false statement misinformation 's spirit , bill 5 wheelies 's chain drive model wow , custom made \? wish could get chain drive wheelies real andy infante listen everybody says , fact remains '71 bmw r60 5 've got get thing dod 2426 joan sutherland opinions , dammit , nothing anyone else ! ! !
infante acpub duke edu \( andrew infante \) subject new motorcycles organization duke university durham , n c lines 11 nntp posting host north1 acpub duke edu apparently , place take msf course around nc community college preclude sort state , , \? andy infante listen everybody says , fact remains '71 bmw r60 5 've got get thing dod 2426 joan sutherland opinions , dammit , nothing anyone else ! ! !
ivan erich triumf ca \( ivan reid \) subject vfr st11 owners get hidden feature organization triumf tri university meson facility lines 29 distribution world nntp posting host erich triumf ca summary light switch allows dual use high low beams keywords lights news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article c61r0b c7 world std com , daved world std com \( dave dorfman \) writes enjoying lunch saturday milford nh assortment nedod folks dean cookson \( yes left country , yet \) mentioned wiring diagram vfr750 shows light switch three position switch high beam low beam beams well actual ergonomics switch make appear 2 position switch , sure enough deam expected , balance toggle switch center position high low beams go provides nice light coverage road true st11 vfr750 would expect late model honda standard two position light switch thanks dean reading schematics , try 'll like bit careful used balance switch h4 insert beams eventually fried main ignition switch , n't designed pass sort current ivan reid , paul scherrer institute , ch ivan cvax psi ch gsx600f , rg250wd si 2 66 porsche pass ! dod 484
subject shaft drives wheelies stafford vax2 winona msus edu \( john stafford \) distribution world organization winona state university nntp posting host stafford winona msus edu lines 24 article 1993apr22 siemens co , siemens co \( mx crew \) wrote sorry stupid question , americans mean shaft drives dictionary knows strange meanings like , , , , , , shaft , beat , , burn \( flame \) , deceive , hoax , drive campaign , crusade , push , may campaign crusade , efforts true spirit list wheel revolution , swing revolutions cannot swing , either , therefore shaft drives cannot wheelies john stafford minnesota state university winona standard disclaimers apply
sdcc13 ucsd edu \( oleg \) subject shaft drives wheelies organization university california , san diego lines 23 nntp posting host sdcc13 ucsd edu article cbnewsj cb att com car377 cbnewsj cb att com \( charles rogers \) writes 120 hp produced fj1100 engine , 12 hp \( 745 7 watts \) 1 hp 8 948 dumped 220 tiny rings \? 's 40 67 watts per ring ! seems little hot , think \? chuck rogers car377 torreys att com , hey , like , work way \? like , know , strap generator route output chain , could increase horsepower \? 32 meters sec pretty nice , , 'd still like able blow away goldwing without going dod 388 big l'audace n't blame , voted libertarian
phj remus rutgers edu \( p ju \) subject yamaha vs honda opinions organization rutgers univ , new brunswick , n j lines 20 nuet ke pts mot com \( keith nuetzman x3153 p7625 \) writes hte market new bike \( without years \) two main bikes i'm looking seriously yamaha virago 535 honda shadow 583 leaning towards yamaha shaft drive , honda chain insurance fla costly thought , staying power range thanks advance opinions experiences friend mine \( 's probably reading right \) bought new yamaha virago 750 spending 1 2 hours late one chilly evening watching struggle bolts \( remove right peg , loosen brake pedal , c c \) 've pretty much decided never get particular model unless someone else wants change oil filter compared 5 minute change used honda , design flaw oversight eyes patricia phj remus rutgers edu
phj remus rutgers edu \( p ju \) subject help ! bikes short \? organization rutgers univ , new brunswick , n j lines 20 bean ra cgd ucar edu \( gregory bean \) writes help ! 've got friend shopping first motorcycle great ! unfortunately , needs 28 seat great far , thing 've found old unhappy looking kz440 checking bikes \( hoping seats \) weeks honda \( \) fit well , honda hawk \( \) , kawasaki sb sh \? \( ca n't remember \) looked like would fit well price tag way large seem remember thread point similar passing several months ago anybody keep list \? please post list mail one ! \( patricia phj remus rutgers edu
csundh30 ursa calvin edu \( charles sundheim \) subject maxima chain wax wheelies nntp posting host ursa organization calvin college lines 13 ak296 yfn ysu edu \( john r daker \) writes would like nominate maxima chain wax another official \( tm \) dod product choice official dod products choice list \? would appropriate party please post erc p faq , keep got plenty maybe 'll go , sure
sdcc3 ucsd edu \( michael \) subject good reasons wave organization university california , san diego lines 20 nntp posting host sdcc3 ucsd edu article quantum qnx com dagibbs quantum qnx com \( david gibbs \) writes , similar note drove 1976 vw van conversion found drivers model would wave , waved back maybe driving funny looking vehicle \? , van drivers need little support driving underpowered pathetic truly vehicles '71 used wave waved across country nh co live cal , though , find 'd damn near wave arm keep van drivers ! truly vee heaven peace , mike disclaim ! ucsd edu
davet interceptor cds tek com \( dave tharp cds \) subject looking movies w bikes organization tektronix colorado data systems , englewood , co lines 17 article dcs qmw ac uk davide dcs qmw ac uk \( dave edmondson \) writes eat peach , two guys build wall death alleviate boredom , get mixed ira process excellent movie essentially motorcycles , look life rural ireland dave tharp dod 0751 ca n't wear davet interceptor cds tek com mra 151 indian scout , '88 k75s '48 indian chief ahrma 751 brother chief '75 r90s \( 151 \) '72 tr 2b \( 751 \) ama 524737 're built like rocks '65 r50 2 velorex '57 nsu max take knocks , 1936 bmw r12 \( compulsive 's harleys employer idea joiner \) give grief
davet interceptor cds tek com \( dave tharp cds \) subject volvo attack ! distribution na organization tektronix colorado data systems , englewood , co lines 19 article bd bd uucp bd fluent dartmouth edu writes cookson mbunix mitre org \( cookson \) writes get rocket launchers vfr \? batf fire sale waco , tx try might try rec models rockets newsgroup interesting stuff , probably classified artillery dave tharp dod 0751 ca n't wear davet interceptor cds tek com mra 151 indian scout , '88 k75s '48 indian chief ahrma 751 brother chief '75 r90s \( 151 \) '72 tr 2b \( 751 \) ama 524737 're built like rocks '65 r50 2 velorex '57 nsu max take knocks , 1936 bmw r12 \( compulsive 's harleys employer idea joiner \) give grief
davet interceptor cds tek com \( dave tharp cds \) subject looking movies w bikes organization tektronix colorado data systems , englewood , co lines 15 silver dream racer frustrated brit club racer 's buddy dies , leaving built garage revolutionary , experimental 500 gp bike brit club racer uses machine beat bad american bad japanese factory bike british gp filmed , believe pretty bad dave tharp dod 0751 ca n't wear davet interceptor cds tek com mra 151 indian scout , '88 k75s '48 indian chief ahrma 751 brother chief '75 r90s \( 151 \) '72 tr 2b \( 751 \) ama 524737 're built like rocks '65 r50 2 velorex '57 nsu max take knocks , 1936 bmw r12 \( compulsive 's harleys employer idea joiner \) give grief
catherine barbara saum cs20 andrew cmu edu subject magnetic tank bags organization temporary employment service , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 16 nntp posting host po3 andrew cmu edu reply 1993apr22 aber ac uk disks \? wo n't erase 're carrying bag \? cathy cathy saum cs20 andrew cmu edu ave 2 '82 yamaha seca pgh , pa '73 cl450 \( custom wooden tank \) studio '64 1 2 mustang \( 351 v8 \) \( 412 \) 521 dod see know , feel feel nobody ever take away mcnally heart stops
magnus acs ohio state edu \( \) subject used gsx r 750s sale \? nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university distribution na lines 19 recently sold nighthawk order upgrade zippy little sport bike , however , partial bigger zippy bikes like gsx r 750 one town sale , sure whether wants part ! please send email would like sell , know one sale , could offer details performance even would n't sell appreciate help ! 1983 pontiac 2000 se 1986 mercury topaz gs looking bike ! baby gsx r 750 1100 \? \? modification construction cbr \? \? likes ! vfr750f \? \?
sdcc14 ucsd edu \( barnes \) subject zx 11 help ! organization university california , san diego lines 16 nntp posting host sdcc14 ucsd edu need help getting zx 11 \( c3 \) behave 've managed get front suspension happy , rear sucks ca n't anything make feel ok bike stable corners \( think front right \) , straights get bumpy rear feels like actually bumps n't seem anything real life , although tell difference bike n't moving 've tried 4 5 cm sag \( unloaded \) , n't know way go anyone gotten rear bike comfortable \? , kind settings \( esp sag \) use like corner , also would like kidneys remain intact thing makes new zx 7 feel sdcc13 ucsd edu
dsc3jfs nmrdc1 nmrdc nnmc navy mil \( jim small \) subject opinion means organization naval medical research development command lines 28 article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu \( andrew infante \) writes since occurance , 've paid many dollars renumerance , taken drunk class , , yes , listened self righteous assholes like think rest world 've never little dd suaree us n't fucking stupid cock sucking asshole 's n't little dd suaree i'm soo impressed 've spend precious little dollars make stupid act go fuck friends killed drunk driving assholes like infante 2 children friends drunk driving assholes like infante 2 's self righteous asshole , weak willed fuck head \? hate 3b2 3b2 bite
nyx cs du edu \( mark fox \) subject battery storage charge store dry \? organization university denver , dept math comp sci lines 12 quite right , batteries perfectly alright retain charge drained dried well , 'd throw electrolyte buy need anyone says i'm wrong , remember new batteries almost always come ready charged dry , perfectly ok even several years' storage shop mark fox
ranck joesbar cc vt edu \( wm l ranck \) subject , xxxx , mean police officers read stuff \? organization virginia tech , blacksburg , virginia lines 27 nntp posting host joesbar cc vt edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 allan hatcher \( ahatcher athena cs uga edu \) wrote well , goes lurking long time , 'll announce yes , i'm enemy enemy also happens ride arrest red 90 vfr n't generally consider police officers enemy hope n't think bikers general attitude stereotypes suck either way 'll entertain questions answers reflect georgia law may apply state p anyone got suit sale \? n't get flamed cop ca n't promise wo n't jerks newsgroup , 've lurking already know might get lots flames try convince people know badge course , get moderate amount flamage expressing opinion , matter opinion somebody flame , ordered official dod yet \? , , patches \? tell boss going undercover real biker gang \) bill ranck \( 703 \) 231 9503 bill ranck vt edu computing center , virginia polytchnic inst state univ , blacksburg , va
russell p hughes dartmouth edu \( \) subject vs crane x posted internews 1 0b14 dartmouth edu organization hog heaven lines 33 article cbnewsm cb att com shz mare att com \( keeper 'tude \) writes plan switch single fire ignition month curious anyone experience supposedly new crane single fire club wrench \( \) done modules several friends 'll get one also unless bunch folks say crane better one guy installed mc power arc ignition yet reported results simple bolt replacement new mounting holes drilled recognize 's fun discuss chris needed change brands penis enhancer 'bout comments single fire ignitions installed mc power arc ii , seems run great also used mc coils , neither ignition module coils required new mounting holes drilled 92 fxstc little soldering fine static timing real easy set side coin , local wrench , whose opinion invariably seek n't always adopt , thinks mc power arc piece shit says jap chips gonna fail one day needless say , n't like electronic ignition modules , recommends system think 's one hall effect timing sensor \( \) , correct \? russ hughes '92 fxstc dod 6022 \( \) chrome steel rides air n young
parr acs ucalgary ca \( charles parr \) subject cb750 c flames exhaust ! ! ! ! nntp posting host acs3 acs ucalgary ca organization university calgary , alberta lines 44 article 1993apr20 9199 research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com \( chris behanna \) writes article 1993apr19 bnr ca dave dal farra gpz750 bnr ca writes reminds great editorial bruce reeve couple months ago cycle canada pissed cops pulling dangerous spots \( often blind corners \) one day decided get revenge cruising factory test bike , noticed cop pulled motorist ramp almost shoulder bright lad , hit bike 's kill switch passing cop , happened bending towards offending motorist exposing passing world ignition system dead , pumped two three times fill exhaust canister 's volatile raw fuel took stab kill switch light ignition send flame swell 's direction wonder cycle cops read cycle canada \? although agree spirit action , hope rider 800 takes replace exhaust system destroyed owner 's manual explicitly warns behavior exactly reason destroy way one good reason straight pipes \) regards , charles dod0 001 rz350 ps anyone know opti oils sells direct case load \? dealership charging 12 99 jug injector oil , 's breaking \) within span last weeks heard elements separate threads , conjoined time , struck together form new chord within hollow echoing gourd unknown net person
subject shaft drives wheelies stafford vax2 winona msus edu \( john stafford \) distribution world organization winona state university nntp posting host stafford winona msus edu lines 18 article news duke edu , infante acpub duke edu \( andrew infante \) wrote 5 wheelies 's chain drive model wow , custom made \? , stock setup someone really ought put end confusion regarding bmw 's chain drive boxers n't someone post faq time ago \? essence , describes problem bmw decision settle shaft drive standard persist chain drive various models \( r c \) gosh well , crusade ! john stafford minnesota state university winona standard disclaimers apply
subject zeno 's countersteering paradox unveiled ! ! ! stafford vax2 winona msus edu \( john stafford \) distribution world organization winona state university nntp posting host stafford winona msus edu lines 14 article 1993apr26 1 nyu edu , nyu edu wrote therefore , point time even though front wheel turned right must going straight ahead \( point go right turn left \) trying describe transition point front wheel actually direction turns backwards john stafford minnesota state university winona standard disclaimers apply
nak cbnews cb att com \( neil kirby \) subject two beemer questions \( r80gs \) organization lines 75 article 1993apr23 organpipe uug arizona edu asphaug lpl arizona edu \( erik asphaug x2773 \) writes hello folks , i'm happy new r80gs range 238 miles 4 8 gallons 's 50 mpg ! ! surprisingly , bike real cruiser expecting something rough 's sweet backroad honey go pretty much anyplace 'd take mountain bike far shaft effect , 's torque effect crankshaft opinion rev sitting still \( moving \) bike twists bit maybe clutch , large chunk counter rotating mass rotating hence , light , makes twist shaft effect rear end rising power \( real problem \) getting lower road throttle snapped shut \( say cornering heads real close road \) new gs bikes shaft almost shaft effect n't ride fast enough get shaft effect , opinion little buffeting wind far greater consequence okay , questions 1 \) recommendations home made fairing \? 'd like keep wind chest , perhaps helmet , comfort highway speeds \( 70 mph \) , yet n't want \( \) screw stability \( b \) block vision much trail riding anybody luck two piece fairings \? 'd like make 2 \) run two lights , standard headlamp plus sidelamp mounted crash bar illumination 's excellent way , full beam coming level motor \( left side \) lamp beam linear get bright streak illumination left right , really picks periphery \( deer lurking , etc \) combined headlamp high see like day 've heard bmw alternators n't crank much need shut sidelamp i'm around dirt low rpm \? 's question long spend low rpm much need extra light low rpm , 3k , n't charge much alternators put sufficient wattage , need 4k rpm get 3 \) embarassing i'm trouble starting bike first thing morning invariably flood carbs , go read section paper , starts right zen thing \? full choke open gas taps hit starter ever slightly blip throttle fire cranking done minimal throttle r100 likes raised bit idle 's experience thing like zen , 's hard describe hard learn n't paying differences success failure especially get really pissed flatten battery trying get run bike sitting weeks , give short start n't , turn wait minutes things fuel system lights right 've got dual plugs make easier start 4 \) 's manual says circumstances use gasoline alcohol additives yeah , right folks due keep engine carbs eaten ethanol methanol \? particular brands gas best \? additives \? big fix bing carb upgrade kit 's good mpg parts alcohol proof parts replaces n't alcohol proof long bike n't going sit long periods time , nice since helps keep ping away bike n't ping cheap gas ought raise compression ! \( half smiley , bmw twins 80s beyond lowered compression keep epa happy dual plugs higher compression give back big chunk lost \) neil kirby dod nak archie att com bell labs columbus oh usa \( 614 \) 860 think speak might lawyers sense
egreen east sun com \( ed green pixel cruncher \) subject good reasons wave organization sun microsystems , rtp , nc lines 22 distribution world reply egreen east sun com nntp posting host laser east sun com article rd hydro ca , jlevine rd hydro ca \( jody levine \) writes anyone , driving cage , ever waved bikers \? get urge , 've never actually done every day n't notice let 's see many posts takes someone selectively quote article article rd hydro ca , jlevine rd hydro ca \( jody levine \) writes anyone , ever done \? win \? ed green , former ninjaite drinking last night biker , ed green east sun com showed picture said , dod 0111 \( 919 \) 460 8302 go , get know , 'll like ! \( grateful dead \) seemed like least could
egreen east sun com \( ed green pixel cruncher \) subject point helmet law point organization sun microsystems , rtp , nc lines 20 distribution world reply egreen east sun com nntp posting host laser east sun com article agate berkeley edu , manish uclink berkeley edu \( manish \) writes motorcycles allowed th 17 mile drive beach \? posted signs \? cite \? n't 's closed access road , pay get \( n't resident sticker \) , simply n't open gates 're bike ed green , former ninjaite drinking last night biker , ed green east sun com showed picture said , dod 0111 \( 919 \) 460 8302 go , get know , 'll like ! \( grateful dead \) seemed like least could
egreen east sun com \( ed green pixel cruncher \) subject ok , little hasty organization sun microsystems , rtp , nc lines 19 distribution world reply egreen east sun com nntp posting host laser east sun com article moustic lbl gov , jnmoyne lbl gov \( jean noel moyne \) writes recently , highway patrol took opposition senators gave shots , hit 07 , put course dodging cones failed , probably change votes result try course drinks \? dunno , article read n't say \( wondering thing \) rather doubt ed green , former ninjaite drinking last night biker , ed green east sun com showed picture said , dod 0111 \( 919 \) 460 8302 go , get know , 'll like ! \( grateful dead \) seemed like least could
subject shaft drives wheelies stafford vax2 winona msus edu \( john stafford \) distribution world organization winona state university nntp posting host stafford winona msus edu lines 21 article morgan demon co uk , tony morgan demon co uk \( tony kidson \) wrote well maintained chains , running oil , without little rubber 'o' rings cause losses , might reach 99 efficiency average open dust 'o' ring motorcycle chain probably difficult job making 90 efficient citations speculation part \? 30 years 've laboring delusion chain drives efficient shaft drives chain drives also stronger \( ever seen successful \? \) flames , please ! 've got kinds drives john stafford minnesota state university winona standard disclaimers apply
subject ignition problem manolo taf fundesco es \( manuel arrevola \) reply manolo taf fundesco es organization taf dept fundesco madrid nntp posting host taf fundesco es x newsreader tin 1 1 17 lines 17 snark bnr ca \( eric nelson \) writes 83 nighthawk two \( related \? \) problems ignition system wo n't start cold mornings \( 10 c , 50 f \) always need give gas starting , even using clutch still happens tune new battery , ideas could wrong bike \? think choke \( starter \) jet blocked even idle one manuel arrevola velasco e mail manolo taf fundesco es fundesco zx 11 calle , 61 dr 600 madrid dod 1033 tel 341 n't waste time , express
ritvax isc rit edu subject 1st time biker iso advice nntp posting host vaxc isc rit edu reply ritvax isc rit edu organization rochester institute technology i'm starting motorcycles , 've read subject bit , talked many friends ride bikes encourage ask kind bike looking get varied answers i'm , 230 , large athletic build suppose would help determine size bike 'd want want something 's going fast powerful enough satisfy certain i'm used also want something going like first time ideas \? ! bill replys prefered e mail thanks advance
nak cbnews cb att com \( neil kirby \) subject vfr st11 owners get hidden feature organization keywords lights lines 40 warning warning may cause ! article c61r0b c7 world std com daved world std com \( dave dorfman \) writes enjoying lunch saturday milford nh assortment nedod folks dean cookson \( yes left country , yet \) mentioned wiring diagram vfr750 shows light switch three position switch high beam low beam beams well actual ergonomics switch make appear 2 position switch , sure enough deam expected , balance toggle switch center position high low beams go provides nice light coverage road true st11 vfr750 would expect late model honda standard two position light switch 's make break type switch required , ought high low beams might wee problem use time , bulb tossing great deal heat normal possibly enough shorten 's life span honda crx cage cage really wanted bike wimpy stock lights used run around beams made mucho big difference low beam died nearly simultaneously ! two weeks finding nice use beams replaced lights quartz halogen lights ended problem neil kirby dod nak archie att com bell labs columbus oh usa \( 614 \) 860 think speak might lawyers sense
james mintaka sdsu edu \( michael james \) subject suzuki sale organization san diego state university , college sciences lines 25 nntp posting host mintaka sdsu edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 article crossposted sdnet forsale , rec author michael james posted 21 apr 1993 15 39 50 gmt must sell motorcycle \( '83 , 20k miles runs well includes cover tank bag i'm asking 700 e mail want take look michael james james mintaka sdsu edu pa 128 594 294 \( h \) michael james james mintaka sdsu edu pa 128 594 \( still neat sig oh well \)
eerik iastate edu \( eerik j villberg \) subject octane \? organization iowa state university , ames ia lines 8 ethanol \? 's available corn country octane rated 89 90 costs normal 87 octane eerik j villberg p people eerik iastate edu e eating 4208 harris street tasty ames ia 50010 animals
klinger ccu umanitoba ca \( jorg klinger \) subject shaft drives wheelies nntp posting host ccu umanitoba ca organization university manitoba , winnipeg , canada lines 39 hpcc01 corp hp com gharriso hpcc01 corp hp com \( graeme harrison \) writes hpcc01 rec motorcycles xlyx vax5 cit cornell edu 2 48 pm apr 19 , 1993 possible wheelie motorcycle shaft drive \? mike terry '82 virago 've seen 'em , real question , one wheelie lead wing \? , high would front wheel ground \? graeme harrison guy around would early pre fairing wing hannigan would get right ride ways pretty intimidating sight real good guess would n't get away chopping throttle jorg klinger gsxr1100 new arch eng services lost horizons cr500 think umanitoba , man ca embalmer it175 anonymous squidonk
npet bnr ca \( nick pettefar \) subject type spesifications \( cb , vfr , gt , etc \) nntp posting host bmdhh299 organization bnr europe ltd , maidenhead , uk x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 33 victor johnson , thu , 22 apr 1993 00 01 10 gmt wibbled rec motorcycles , cjackson adobe com \( curtis jackson \) writes article c5sk1d c1p srgenprp sr hp com frankb sad hp com \( frank ball \) writes honda v designates v engine street bike vf v 4 , vt v twin honda hawk \( nt 650 \) \? 's twin , called vt 's took old vt 500 engine stepped make plant hawk new twin fly microsoft nt \( new technology \) \? 've long today cheers , victor dances hawks johnson also bmw stuff k100rs k , rs really slow , 100 , suppose 's much spend week keep damn thing road nick \( pissed bike biker \) dod 1069 concise oxford m'lud nick pettefar , contractor large teneo tuus intervallum cuurrently incarcerated bnr , npet bnr ca '86 bmw k100rs kay maidenhead , united kingdom pres pbwasoh \( uk \) , bs 0002 \(
neal cmptrc lonestar org \( neal howard \) subject dogs vs bikes organization computrac inc , richardson tx lines 28 first encounter dog chasing bike first poker run big german shepard ran pack bikes riding tried bite right leg guy riding front kicked dog couple times \( going 10 15mph \) made dog got away applying outrunning dog started truly time , open drag pipes \( loud hell \) soon dog 2 feet away right side bike , pulled clutch revved motor roar pipes frightened dog away \( probably made dog 's ears hurt like hell \) n't come back rest bikers behind either second encounter already deceased road kill dog n't paying close attention pavement car front carcass looked time see run held onto handlebars wheels went squarely dog 's belly thump thump like running piece 4x4 lumber bike n't lose stability kept going got destination , found bits fur , meat , blood stuck bottom motor frame gross neal howard '91 xlh 1200 dod 686 computrac , inc \( richardson , tx \) doh 0000001200 355o33 neal cmptrc lonestar org std disclaimer opinions mine , computrac 's let us learn dream , gentlemen , perhaps shall learn truth august kekule' \( 1890 \)
irwin cmptrc lonestar org \( irwin arnstein \) subject dod confessional organization computrac inc , richardson tx lines 23 article 1993apr21 551 bnr ca mbeaving bnr ca writes ca n't help 've tried rational , look way , everytime happens , hate motorcycles crud deleted beav mike beavington dod 9733 v65sabre mbeaving bnr ca employer idea i'm talking ! missing lot neat old rides tuba \( irwin \) honk therefore computrac richardson , tx irwin cmptrc lonestar org dod 0826 \( r75 6 \)
svoboda rtsg mot com \( david svoboda \) subject put helmet nntp posting host corolla18 organization motorola inc , cellular infrastructure group lines 27 article 97 uupcb compdyn questor org ryan cousineau compdyn questor org \( ryan cousineau \) writes another good place helmet mirror \( ! \) kid typical standard bike fairly average mirrors screw handlebars , helmet fit mirror fairly stable butt , butt , yu able t0 ee car ! g behind yu t0 ! chick dig ! seriously , though , putting helmet mirror resting weight helmet fragile foam liner expected cushion noggin crushed , foam never pops back variation mirror hanging thing bike \( hey , centerstand maintenance \) turn wheel stop \( left \) hang helmet chin bar right grip foam chin bar , pretty secure \( long forks locked \) leave helmet parked bike \( bags n't full \) , stable place dave svoboda \( svoboda void rtsg mot com \) i'm getting tired 90 concours 1000 \( mmmmmmmmmm ! \) beating , dave 84 rz 350 \( ring ding \) \( woops ! \) never learn ama 583905 dod 0330 cog 939 \( chicago \) beth bruiser dixon
neal cmptrc lonestar org \( neal howard \) subject cb750 c flames exhaust ! ! ! ! organization computrac inc , richardson tx lines 13 hey , lone biker apocalypse \( see raising arizona \) flames coming exhaust pipes love toggle kill switch sportster produce flaming , especially underneath overpasses night \( 's loud lights whole ! ! ! neal howard '91 xlh 1200 dod 686 computrac , inc \( richardson , tx \) doh 0000001200 355o33 neal cmptrc lonestar org std disclaimer opinions mine , computrac 's let us learn dream , gentlemen , perhaps shall learn truth august kekule' \( 1890 \)
egreen east sun com \( ed green pixel cruncher \) subject funny thing happened way hon organization sun microsystems , rtp , nc lines 13 distribution world reply egreen east sun com nntp posting host laser east sun com article 0 elan rowan edu , cassidy elan rowan edu \( kyle cassidy \) writes see past 30 miles 've riding side stand oops ! insisted cutout switches right , something like curse god \? ed green , former ninjaite drinking last night biker , ed green east sun com showed picture said , dod 0111 \( 919 \) 460 8302 go , get know , 'll like ! \( grateful dead \) seemed like least could
keith dseg ti com \( keith \) subject riceburner respect organization texas instruments information technology group lines 14 article cbnewsm cb att com shz mare att com \( keeper 'tude \) writes consolation trouble scraping together 35 500 quite one week 's beer money roid well know know afford harley keith texas instruments plain , texas 80 cb900 custom dod insane society , sane man must appear insane ama company knowledge actions
quads uchicago edu \( \) subject better bike \? reply midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 6 looking honda shadow intruder 800 1400 \? heard bikes \? also , plan long time riding twin v cruisers best bikes get , dont want something massive like \?
rtaraz bigwpi wpi edu \( ramin taraz \) subject '93 wing ding \? organization worcester polytechnic institute , worcester , 01609 2280 lines 13 nntp posting host bigwpi wpi edu reply franks hercules cs uregina ca 's message wed , 21 apr 1993 22 22 06 gmt wed , 21 apr 1993 22 22 06 gmt , franks hercules cs uregina ca \( derek franks \) said franks first post , dod would like know dod \? , feel free ask fill rtaraz wpi wpi edu today tank 1988 ex500 good day go ride dod taurus pt die \?
mcguire cs utexas edu \( tommy marcus mcguire \) subject , xxxx , mean police officers read stuff \? organization cs dept , university texas austin lines 27 nntp posting host earth cs utexas edu article vtserf cc vt edu ranck joesbar cc vt edu \( wm l ranck \) writes course , get moderate amount flamage expressing opinion , matter opinion somebody flame bill ranck \( 703 \) 231 9503 bill ranck vt edu hey , hell mean \? suck god given right express opinions , carry gun wear helmet , goddamn everything stand stupid know , alan , really like one tommy mcguire mcguire cs utexas edu mcguire austin ibm com append appropriate disclaimer outgoing public information , identifying personal independent ibm
egreen east sun com \( ed green pixel cruncher \) subject countersteering sans hands organization sun microsystems , rtp , nc lines 23 distribution world reply egreen east sun com nntp posting host laser east sun com article rtsg mot com , svoboda rtsg mot com \( david svoboda \) writes well , many bored bike tell , way steer sans hans push body side want lean also known , leaning say want turn left severely confused rambling ground pushing front wheel trail ground pushes front wheel toward left contact patch , trail cause wheel turn right hey , hands counter steering refers pushing inside handlebar effect lean hands countersteering oxymoron ed green , former ninjaite drinking last night biker , ed green east sun com showed picture said , dod 0111 \( 919 \) 460 8302 go , get know , 'll like ! \( grateful dead \) seemed like least could
russell p hughes dartmouth edu \( \) subject bub pipes ! live free , variable ! x posted internews 1 0b14 dartmouth edu organization hog heaven lines 23 failing state new hampshire noise gestapo test hd slash cut pipes installed new \( planning anyway \) , went different station , passed problem 97 db two points first , n't think first dude noise test correctly holding meter close body probably caused high reading , inside garage door closed undoubtedly enhanced db level ! nh riders need get done , make sure inspection done outdoors meter held well away body second , bub pipes bloody terrific low revs cruising town , quiet stock pipes , sound thats , , rumble open 3000 rpm emit wonderfully satisfying roar best worlds ! russ hughes '92 fxstc dod 6022 \( \) chrome steel rides air n young
robinson cogsci berkeley edu \( michael robinson \) subject need advice riding someone pillion organization institute cognitive studies , u c berkeley lines 20 distribution usa nntp posting host cogsci berkeley edu keywords advice , pillion , help ! article 1993apr21 microsoft com microsoft com \( pat \) writes also , remember 's much draining tiring ride 2 , 're concentrating much , zen moment less remember first times someone whose safety great concern \( opposed brothers , etc \) , almost got us killed several occasions surprised discover much safer drive trying unusually cautious concerned abruptly adopting novel set thought patterns riding strategies bike asking trouble michael robinson uucp ucbvax ! cogsci ! robinson internet robinson cogsci berkeley edu
aa963 freenet carleton ca \( lloyd carr \) subject yamaha vs honda opinions reply aa963 freenet carleton ca \( lloyd carr \) organization national capital freenet lines 31 previous article , phj remus rutgers edu \( p ju \) says nuet ke pts mot com \( keith nuetzman x3153 p7625 \) writes friend mine \( 's probably reading right \) bought new yamaha virago 750 spending 1 2 hours late one chilly evening watching struggle bolts \( remove right peg , loosen brake pedal , c c \) 've pretty much decided never get particular model unless someone else wants change oil filter compared 5 minute change used honda , design flaw oversight eyes patricia phj remus rutgers edu sure n't know bike worked sure n't virago 've owned 750 1100 filter change 5 mins nothing removed obviously new bike modified stock machine simple work watching ! ! lloyd aa963 freenet carleton ca carr carr uranus doc ca dod org ca
wayne orwig atlantaga ncr com \( wayne orwig \) subject battery storage charge store dry \? lines 19 nntp posting host worwig atlantaga ncr com organization ncr corporation x newsreader ftpnuz \( dos \) v1 0 article 1993apr22 mnemosyne cs du edu nyx cs du edu \( mark fox \) says quite right , batteries perfectly alright retain charge drained dried well , 'd throw electrolyte buy need anyone says i'm wrong , remember new batteries almost always come ready charged dry , perfectly ok even several years' storage shop mark fox makes sense , steel manufactured stored put oil wo n't rust , store bike , must strip paint put oil metal prevent rus
azw aber ac uk \( andy woodward \) subject dogs nntp posting host aber ac uk organization university college wales , aberystwyth lines 11 second thought rec 're \? \? \? ! hell , wondering pointless motorcycles find rec \? dont think system takes
tobias convex com \( allen tobias \) subject advantages slip ons nntp posting host hydra convex com organization convex computer corporation , richardson , tx , usa x disclaimer message written user convex computer corp opinions expressed user necessarily convex lines 56 article 1993apr26 kronos arc nasa gov pioneer arc nasa gov \( dave \) writes quick question advantages slip 's versus stock exhaust versus aftermarket exhaust systems \? n't see many people using slip 's heavily advertised half expensive thanks ! dave cost lower oem replacements weigh less also , instances get little performance replaced oem canister ontario systems slip mid range performance better also notice slight stumble 2 3k rpm talking kaz , developer manufacturer slip , thinks might need larger pilot , idle , jets suppose maybe live makes difference altitude , pressure anyway , besides minor glitch , like slip performance sound , louder stock , loud enough annoy folks ontario slip use sort sound technique reduce sound full throttle remember , every bike tuned system change intake exhaust characteristics beyond allowable delta manufacturer , may change areas compensate like complete change exhaust system , header muffler , changes exhaust characteristic point required compensate new engine breathing pumping profile talk folks make slip intend use ask used particular bike check people system also see think slip also , last data point , sport rider 's first issue , review group header exhaust systems cbr600f2 also included , side bar , ontario slip , dyno showed increase stock rear wheel , 85 verses 91 buyer beware , outrageous claimed increases horse power ! may true past , today ! 0 0 1991 cbr600f2 \( \) allen tobias technical email \( \) \( \) convex computer corp marketing tobias convex com \( \) \( \) 3000 parkway \( \) \( \) richardson , tx \( \) bike awesome i'm fearless let 's go jay gleason
burnham markb wc novell com subject advantages slip ons x xxdate tue , 27 apr 93 09 38 18 gmt nntp posting host 130 57 72 65 organization novell inc x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d12 lines 17 article isl apple com paul thompson , thompson apple com writes sure would nice someone would start making replacements oem exhausts would cheaper louder read system called e r supposed quiet enough pass european standards apparently 's market yet makes systems supposed kind quiet also really light i'm planning getting one systems soon , post results mark mark burnham \( markb wc novell com \) ama dod alfa romeo 6 '90 ninja 750
cassidy elan rowan edu \( kyle cassidy \) subject funny thing happened dmv day lines 34 nntp posting host rowan edu organization rowan college new jersey saw posted brings interesting event mind article mdennie beryllium mdennie xerox com \( matt dennie \) writes reactions little boys seems enthusiastic wave \( also good see \) always wave see kid least noticed bike figure helps future sport admit usually try without parental figure noticing i`m afraid kid get yelled anti societal types like us weeks ago dmv ken standing mile long line waiting really bored looking person bunch people dough ken sitting chair next helmets wondering everybody looked social people would find young woman walked required came stood line watched fill forms noticed little kid 4 years old reach bench touch helmets , one time n't particularly mind , neither ken \( kid touching helmets \) helmets n't stable platforms , ken soon touched helmets , mother said child started kid stay away shit ! brutally head shoulders suppose scary sex drugs unix shirts sent bouts terror body
hartzler cbmvax cbm commodore com \( jerry hartzler cats \) subject story respect reply hartzler cbmvax cbm commodore com \( jerry hartzler cats \) organization commodore , west chester , pa lines 29 article 1993apr23 pacesetter com lynn pacesetter com \( lynn e hall \) writes nudity , fine loud noise , fine party night , fine right place time please , let 's trample 's rights bitch n't treat us like gods michael menard know , n't even going respond typical anti party attitude message trash everywhere reason \? enough massive crowd oatman n't prepared vast number people showed n't think michael 's response anti party rather pro environmental agree gotta let us hogs roam every awhile let 's hope next year oatman better prepared pick asshole 've already admitted i'm asshole many times net friends assholes \( lyrics new song \? \) , want dime call someone cares \? well , one thought told good story , even say hole ! \) need biker written news 's unfortunate got flamed telling , know controversial group rate , keep good work continue post stories jerry \( '93 \)
rmt pioneer net com \( richard \) subject touring southwest nntp posting host pioneer organization network equipment technologies lines 21 article fatcity cts com kim fatcity cts com \( kim sharpe \) writes us touring utah mid june see canyons helpful hints stay things see avoid plans see bryce , zion , arches grand close point additional trip required \? help would nice thank support , grand canyon far away short side trips \( cedar city hurricane \) pipe springs \( way hurricane grand canyon \) may interesting right highway pipe springs \( small fort \) gives real insight pioneers lived missed one major must see attraction cedar breaks mountains cedar city take lots film reason calling country natural bridges four corners area also scenic , may far route monument valley spectacular , may far away rich
edu \( jerry \) subject inner tube tyre safe \? organization oregon state system higher education lines 20 nntp posting host edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 speedy mercer \( speedy engr latech edu \) wrote article 1993apr27 csdvax csd unsw edu au exb0405 csdvax csd unsw edu au writes hello dod'ers et al , need advice inner tubes barry manor dod 620 spend bucks get new tire dod 8177 technician \( dr speed \) student second commend dr speed , get new tire 's like brakes , something n't want take chances waited long take care front tire went flat , 70 mph going grapevine towards instance , would given amount money new tire i'm lucky jerry
hoyt terminus gatech edu \( kurt hoyt \) subject braves giants organization georgia tech college computing lines 12 cimmeria gatech edu \( thomas miller \) writes anyone else think weekend 's four game series really strange one \? yes strangest series ever watched ending fit perfectly kurt atlanta hoyt cc gatech edu salestech com 652 compuserve com politics greek poli many ugly , blood sucking parasites
uxa cso uiuc edu \( vincent paul guthrie \) subject mlb nba \? organization university illinois urbana lines 36 rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes article netcom com , mss netcom com \( mark singer \) says article 93108 vma cc nd edu rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes want decrease players' salaries \? want increase salaries \? two equivalent bob vesterman insist ticket prices cannot adjusted downward taxes revenues build parking charges concession costs etc 1 \) would owners decrease ticket prices obviously get lots people pay price 're asking \? 2 \) even assuming strange power make owners decrease ticket prices , decrease tv contract bob vesterman happen tv contract runs , considering networks losing money \? either ticket prices go , someones salary cut , perhaps local community could make difference baseball probably facing dramatic drop income soon , someone suffer \( probably fans higher ticket prices , definitely someone \)
vaxa strath ac uk subject jack morris \? \? \? \? \? \? lines 28 nntp posting host vaxa organization strathclyde university vax cluster hey guys , jack morris \? \? \? \? \? \? joking ! ! ! ! ! try lighten ya \? season 's started everyone 's trying justify morris moment , remember 're talking small sample size helluva long way go , sit back enjoy ride tony
cimmeria gatech edu \( thomas miller \) subject braves giants organization georgia institute technology lines 31 nntp posting host cimmeria gatech edu article spd hp com spd hp com \( gary rosen \) writes \( thomas miller \) 5 39 apr 19 , 1993 anyone else think weekend 's four game series really strange one \? yeah , real strange think braves awarded nl west title without actually play games gary rosen n't say say \? wow , ca n't believe anyone would think braves \( team , matter \) get title free person would , thought incredible thomas miller cimmeria gatech edu systems support specialist ii georgia tech network services looked behold , pale horse name , sat , death hell followed
hoyt terminus gatech edu \( kurt hoyt \) subject hunter dl , klesko organization georgia tech college computing lines 20 steph pegasus cs uiuc edu \( dale stephenson \) writes news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu \( eric roush \) writes braves prospects , say , imo , someone braves roster become may even hunter think 'll problem getting klesko lineup 's well , may good news klesko hits , 'd look bream traded \( possible \) released , since bream also hope klesko hits according atlanta paper , bream full time first baseman klesko used late inning defensive replacement bream lifted pinch runner 'd hit homer first ab \( win game amazing thing \) rewarded start could even attempt push hunter bream lineup kurt atlanta hoyt cc gatech edu salestech com 652 compuserve com politics greek poli many ugly , blood sucking parasites
hhenderson vax clarku edu subject game length \( braves update ! ! organization clark university lines 23 nflynn wvnvms wvnet edu writes however , policy trying speed games first person \( non mediot \) seen endorse policy problem length games tired espn crowd \( announcers \) bitching never ballpark filled people looking watches shouting hurry ! cough big bucks ticket , n't mind game last 2 10 really n't understand agree nick 's big deal long games \? want watch baseball , 's much baseball watch yes , baseball includes space plays well plays suspect lot complaining long games , especially 's coming tv people , something advertising probably time wasted middle inning , say batter stepping box fiddle gloves , pitcher walking around behind mound trying collect thoughts , could otherwise sold advertising time heather hhenderson vax clarku edu
thornley milli cs umn edu \( david h thornley \) subject jack morris nntp posting host milli cs umn edu organization university minnesota , minneapolis , csci dept lines 96 article 1993apr20 ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) writes talking morris winning toronto last year launch fantasy red jays toronto would done viola team viola n't play toronto last year morris problem approach , roger , takes sense game line reasoning , guy hits double play one bases loaded , 's point saying bad thing \( team anyway \) speculating might happened things gone otherwise , double play merely event happened course game eventually lost unknown reasons , speculation involves constructing fantasy would happened n't roger , ever worry next pencil drop fall ceiling instead \? willing consider empirical evidence \? teams go post season win games anybody else division n't make post season , n't win series agree winning division useful intermediate goal ring collecting \? , must agree winning games useful intermediate goal towards winning division , disagreements come consider win games viewpoint expressed , winning games happens reasons cannot analyzed many us thinking things like base runners good , outs bad , therefore walks better double plays bases loaded , thinking things like 's team game , perhaps double play cause mysterious team dynamics cause team win today result becomes impossible say anything individual players perhaps atlanta would series playing left field , perhaps way knowledge personality would helped team complete lack skill would hurt therefore , could extremely valuable player dave winfield anything jays' victory \? probably , know \? replace andres galarraga , perhaps jays would , perhaps would lost , perhaps would alpha centauri \( bearing mind flying saucers would landed mid season winfield toronto \) babe ruth good player \? played ws winning teams , anything success \? generally accepted ernie banks good baseball player , jarvis brown dan n't seems anybody would deny needs provide proof , observed things baseball years , empirically looking rulebook necessary score runs one 's opponent win game , would seem important score runs prevent one 's opponent scoring runs scored team batting , inning ends third , would seem making outs bad hitting home runs good players tendencies hit pitch certain levels , usually somewhat consistent year year use statistics predict winners , make flat predictions barry bonds higher obp slg gene larkin year braves finish ahead rockies standings tigers score runs royals , also give would astonished turned false , , suspect , would matter fact , pretty sure predict division winners year , given 3 4 guesses per division , certainly better random chance \( almost statistically significant \) admit rockies mariners unlikely meet world series , must admit sort way measure , however fuzzy impossible things equal fantasy totally meaningless real life \? person service station two people , using 38 automatic pistol , gets 42 , convicted sentenced three years person b , similar criminal record , service station two people , using 38 revolver , gets 42 , convicted since used two different types handgun , comparisons totally meaningless \? say drop pencil see gravity still works \( cats always testing n't trust pay gravity bill time \) never dropped pencil exact time century , previous evidence meaningless \? would surprised flew window instead hitting desk \? david thornley , replica world series rings , tickets 1992 world series metrodome
ecaxron ariel lerc nasa gov \( ron graham \) subject game length \( braves update ! ! organization nasa lewis research center lines 32 distribution world nntp posting host ariel lerc nasa gov news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article 20apr93 vax clarku edu , hhenderson vax clarku edu writes nflynn wvnvms wvnet edu writes however , policy trying speed games agree nick 's big deal long games \? want watch baseball , 's much baseball watch yes , baseball includes space plays well plays hesitate make assumptions people write , neither two sound though kids , may spouses either consider night game starting 7 05 pm est \( 7 35 last year , cleveland showed thought good sense pushing back \) go , i'm 11 pm minimum extra innings could put well past midnight even without extra innings , score beyond 2 1 ca n't see family night next day , may bag well , later game goes , colder gets shore lake erie stuff enters consideration even going game say n't care whether game sped , saying n't care time goes , game people n't families n't get work next day rg play better anyone 's one barry bonds , playing two movies
fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu \( eric roush \) subject bob knepper damn right ! organization biochemistry lines 59 nntp posting host bruchner biochem duke edu article shelley u washington edu hardy u washington edu \( glenn tanner \) writes fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu \( eric roush \) writes article 1993apr19 leland stanford edu leland stanford edu \( dave \) writes get sucked \? article 1993apr19 035406 news yale edu \( austin jacobs \) writes n't guys think \? mean , c'mon ! heck women even thinking getting baseball cause many problems assuming 're serious , guess 'd surprised hear us guys n't think would guess tiny fraction 1 folks reading post agree kind doubt even agree sheesh ! agree , dave anyone starting rec sports idiots guys like austin \? , starting rec sports idiots people respond obvious flamebait nah , let 's reserve rec sports idiots people post obvious flamebait , like someone posts something controversial \( mention idiotic \) austin posted widely accessed newsgroup , someone challenge statement school thought suggests silence consent whereas idea may apply everything life , certainly apply forum public discussion , r b 've reading r b lately , 'll find even elementary school children access postings , edited form 's making think little carefully things post conclusion , someone like austin wants post drivel obscure newsgroup n't read , fine 's got right rant , rave , wants name free speech newsgroup read , support right anyone provide rebuttal , course , n't read want cut flames , post flamebait ! \( n't respond flames , either saves cyberspace \) sheesh , eric
jtchern ocf berkeley edu \( joseph hernandez \) subject mlb standings scores tue , apr 20th , 1993 organization jtc enterprises sports division \( major league baseball dept \) lines 74 distribution world nntp posting host monsoon ether berkeley edu keywords mlb , 04 20 note saturday , april 20th 's scores sent coming friday mlb standings scores tuesday , april 20th , 1993 \( including yesterday 's games \) national west lost pct gb last 10 streak home road san francisco giants 08 05 615 7 3 1 05 02 03 03 houston astros 07 05 583 0 5 7 3 1 02 04 05 01 atlanta braves 07 07 500 1 5 4 6 lost 1 04 03 03 04 los angeles dodgers 06 07 462 2 0 4 6 3 03 03 03 04 san diego padres 05 07 417 2 5 5 5 3 03 04 02 03 colorado rockies 04 07 364 3 0 4 6 lost 1 03 03 01 04 cincinnati reds 03 09 250 4 5 2 8 1 02 04 01 05 national east philadelphia phillies 09 03 750 7 3 1 05 01 04 02 pittsburgh pirates 07 05 583 2 0 5 5 lost 3 03 02 04 03 st louis cardinals 07 05 583 2 0 6 4 lost 3 04 02 03 03 new york mets 06 05 545 2 5 5 5 lost 1 02 03 04 02 chicago cubs 06 06 500 3 0 5 5 lost 1 03 03 03 03 montreal expos 06 06 500 3 0 5 5 1 03 03 03 03 florida marlins 04 08 333 5 0 3 7 lost 1 02 04 02 04 american west lost pct gb last 10 streak home road texas rangers 08 03 727 7 3 2 04 02 04 01 california angels 06 04 600 1 5 6 4 lost 1 03 02 03 02 minnesota twins 06 05 545 2 0 6 4 lost 1 03 03 03 02 chicago white sox 05 07 417 3 5 4 6 lost 3 02 03 03 04 seattle mariners 05 07 417 3 5 4 6 1 03 02 02 05 oakland athletics 04 06 400 3 5 4 6 lost 4 04 02 00 04 kansas city royals 03 09 250 5 5 3 7 1 01 05 02 04 american east boston red sox 10 03 769 7 3 3 06 01 04 02 detroit tigers 07 05 583 2 5 7 3 lost 1 05 01 02 04 toronto blue jays 07 05 583 2 5 6 4 1 04 02 03 03 new york yankees 06 06 500 3 5 5 5 lost 2 03 03 03 03 milwaukee brewers 04 05 444 4 0 4 5 2 02 02 02 03 cleveland indians 05 08 385 5 0 3 7 lost 1 04 03 01 05 baltimore orioles 04 07 364 5 0 4 6 1 02 03 02 04 yesterday's scores \( idle teams listed alphabetical order \) national league american league houston astros ppd chicago white sox 0 chicago cubs rain boston red sox 6 atlanta braves idle toronto blue jays 7 cincinnati reds idle cleveland indians 1 colorado rockies idle seattle mariners 10 florida marlins idle detroit tigers 6 los angeles dodgers idle baltimore orioles idle montreal expos idle california angels idle new york mets idle kansas city royals idle philadelphia milwaukee brewers idle pittsburgh pirates idle minnesota twins idle st louis cardinals idle new york yankees idle san francisco giants idle oakland athletics idle san diego padres idle texas rangers idle joseph hernandez rams lakers jtchern ocf berkeley edu kings dodgers raiders jtcent soda berkeley edu angels clippers
jtchern ocf berkeley edu \( joseph hernandez \) subject mlb scores correction organization jtc enterprises sports division \( major league baseball dept \) lines 16 distribution world nntp posting host monsoon ether berkeley edu keywords mlb , 04 20 correction note posted today 's update read note saturday , april 20th 's scores sent coming friday course , last saturday april 17th people requested scores receive friday 23rd thanks joe hernandez joseph hernandez rams lakers jtchern ocf berkeley edu kings dodgers raiders jtcent soda berkeley edu angels clippers
msus1 msus edu subject devon white , playing \? organization minnesota state university system lines 15 article fir helios physics utoronto ca , wyllie helios physics utoronto ca \( andrew wyllie \) writes article 1993apr19 bmerh85 bnr ca bnr ca writes devon white blue jays line lately anybody know playing \? one games last week \( wednesday \? \) , white playing flu guess white probably still sick hope white gets back lineup soon , watching darrin jackson play center painful andrew heard strained abdominal muscle something like dan
dtate pitt edu \( david tate \) subject hbp \? bb \? big cat \? distribution na organization department industrial engineering lines 63 kubey sgi com \( ken kubey \) said suppose foul ball machine \( like brett butler \) pretty valuable , 'd rather watch \( root \) lower obp guys actually hit ball legitimate point baseball entertainment , quarrel people find certain styles play entertaining others , regardless win value personally , i'm huge fan slug bunt doubt 's high percentage play , get big kick willing live bad consequences exchange fun course , claiming \( \) galarraga 's inability defer gratification n't hurting team n't paid walk rbi guy whatever finally , 'd like point many high obp guys draw walks pitchers afraid throw strike , great eye i'm sure used think true , i'm becoming convinced 's way around among players physical ability hit ball real hard , patient ones ones get chance lot let 's break four basic categories hitter , according whether power threats whether walk lot power power patient frank thomas brett butler barry bonds ozzie smith mark mcgwire craig grebeck babe ruth miller ted williams billy hamilton rickey henderson eddie joe morgan mike impatient ernie banks ozzie dave kingman joe carter andres thomas george bell jose lind kirby puckett devon white etc far tell , categories full really looks like two independent nobody could possibly afraid craig grebeck plate , yet walks quite lot part , undoubtedly , small stature , surely major league pitchers hit sort target least 3 times 6 randy milligan even better example 's shown noticeable power one \( partial \) season , walks place , despite huge strike zone david tate \( dtate pitt edu \) greetings , sir , bat quick member iie , orsa , tims , sabr hands soft , eye discerning denver call slugger \? big catullus galarraga compare mattingly ! \?
pogo wv tek com \( scott walsh \) subject predicted runs lineup summary estimated runs 27 outs reply pogo wv tek com distribution usa organization tektronix , inc , wilsonville , lines 20 time back newsgroup , seem recall thread predicting runs given lineup 9 batters could expected score given appropriate statistical alphabet soup hitters \( obp , slg , avg , bat length , hat size , day week , weather conditions , etc \) \) anyway , dreaming animal \? apologies covered recently , probably get read 10 articles posted time many thanks advance , scotty scott walsh pogo wv tek com tektronix , inc graphics printing imaging products ibd \( 503 \) 685
fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu \( eric roush \) subject braves update ! ! organization biochemistry lines 58 nntp posting host bruchner biochem duke edu article 1993apr19 194025 8967 adobe com snichols adobe com \( sherri nichols \) writes article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu \( eric roush \) writes thrown gant legitimate beef 1 0 pitch called strike reasonable umpire would tried force gant back box situation reasonable umpire would 's instructed season get batters back box sooner try cut ridiculous length games one glad see happen , hope umpires hirschbeck pitcher pitch batter wo n't get back box previous strike call bogus \? 's past , ca n't changed get back deal next pitch sorry , sherri , ca n't agree particular incident i'm cutting number chain rattles examples rampant , difference 1 \) since time immemorial , batters complained calls pitchers catchers usually , nothing happens unless league notified teams year allowing complaints , hirschbeck acting expectations 2 \) 's gant hirschbeck 's face gant said something call , stepped box , turned away hirschbeck hitter \( little consequence , decent eye \) , whenever receiving short end stick questionable call , 'd want moment two box , reason rethink strike zone based experience last pitch really angry ump , 'd rather turn away catch breath turn say something might get tossed , especially key moment game gant turned away , hirschbeck immediately motioned gant step box imo , point time , hirschbeck determined show gant exactly charge game gant n't dawdling n't chance hirschbeck simply exercising power play gant resisted , many us might thought unreasonable request , hirschbeck called pitch point , cox came field , pitch thrown , many braves left dugout cox tossed protecting player pleasantly surprised gant kept cool enough stay game 's small sample size , based saw game , mark hirschbeck hair trigger temper need play god field good qualities umpire keep eyes open future appearances hirschbeck future , order improve sample size imo , game remember name umpire bad game umpire eric roush
drw3l delmarva evsc virginia edu \( david robert walker \) subject jack morris organization university virginia lines 41 article 1993apr20 ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) writes cannot isolate total contribution player position makes team 's victory since cannot make measure complete confidence objectivity , since absolutely necessary reason make kind subjective measurement submit pointless gm trying put together winning team might consider era , might consider attitude , might consider past performance key situations looking player considers best gm looking player thinks help team win cannot isolate completely , roger , make pretty good estimate wo n't claim split hairs say really measure better , robby alomar carlos baerga , last year difference close call larkin lee \? clemens morris \? differences great measure game , team ever replace single player \? since clearly best , better \? yet every team always find someplace beleive improve team always find player little better one already \( btw , definitions , best player one things help team win allow could vary depending else team , one team needs others \) baseball team game , made individual talents absurd judge success failure individual success failure teammates , choose \( least cases \) morris last year played team joe carter , robby alomar , tom henke , juan guzman , john olerud , et al clemens lost surrounded lesser performers herm , luis rivera , jeff reardon define quality team sum components \( , albeit \) lesser error defining quality individual mean quality team \( reading arguments suggests \) clay
sas cbnewsg cb att com \( sullivan \) subject let 's play name game ! organization distribution na lines 13 article 1993apr20 newshub ariel yorku ca cs902043 ariel yorku ca \( shawn luddington \) writes changing team names ! post choices ! 'll start baltimore baseblazers san francisco quakes pittsburgh sellouts shawn go rangers ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
rkoffler ux4 cso uiuc edu \( bighelmet \) subject phils spot espn distribution na organization university illinois urbana lines 15 weeks ago posted phillies team personalities anyone see espn feature phils monday night john kruk great line talking people team always playing sitting minor injury said know 'll kick ass time saw afternoon saw ass mitch williams talked team bunch teams , close kruk said get along year last year , said , hated pitchers assume joking , always keeps straight face talks oh , team ! ! ! ! ! rob live day day rkoffler ux4 cso uiuc edu dream tomorrow
chuq apple com \( chuq von rospach \) subject ottawa lynx info wanted organization go sharks , go giants , inc lines 29 nntp posting host apple com mcgill ca \( \) writes 1 \) current roster lynx someone minor league mailing list probably 2 \) home game schedule lynx , n't time type whole thing \( n't mind looking specific date ranges individual games , limits \) besides , stuff easy find baseball america puts book called directory 's 10 \( us \) every team 's data schedule type whole , 'd spending lot time infringing copyright folks interested minors check minor league list \( see signature \) , folks tracking team schedules ba directory order 800 845 find chuq imho von rospach , esd support training \( dal aux \) chuq apple com member , sfwa editor , otherrealms genie mac bigot alink chuq minor league fans minors request medraut apple com \( san jose giants 1 9 \) san francisco giants fans giants request medraut apple com \( stick \? ! \) san jose sharks fans sharks request medraut apple com \( new seat 127 tbd \)
chuq apple com \( chuq von rospach \) subject braves giants organization go sharks , go giants , inc lines 15 nntp posting host apple com fls keynes econ duke edu \( forrest smith \) writes situation giants' bleachers case point need commissioner okay , i'm curious \? commissioner fly stand pitchers mound yell fans sit , \? chuq imho von rospach , esd support training \( dal aux \) chuq apple com member , sfwa editor , otherrealms genie mac bigot alink chuq minor league fans minors request medraut apple com \( san jose giants 1 9 \) san francisco giants fans giants request medraut apple com \( stick \? ! \) san jose sharks fans sharks request medraut apple com \( new seat 127 tbd \)
ecaxron ariel lerc nasa gov \( ron graham \) subject right ! , right ! \( bob knepper damn right ! \) organization nasa lewis research center lines 81 distribution world nntp posting host ariel lerc nasa gov news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article news duke edu , fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu \( eric roush \) writes article shelley u washington edu hardy u washington edu \( glenn tanner \) writes , starting rec sports idiots people respond obvious flamebait nah , let 's reserve rec sports idiots people post obvious flamebait , like funny n't realize mr tanner brought bob knepper v pam postema first place thought someone named jacobs someone posts something controversial \( mention idiotic \) austin posted widely accessed newsgroup , someone challenge statement \? statement truly idiotic , universally thought , challenge waste , challenges nothing \( yes , nothing \) baseball wasting others' time got problem bob knepper thinks \? let 's hear , sort manner \( actually , question whether either knepper postema n't old news point , although read postema 's book interesting \) school thought suggests silence consent agree far whereas idea may apply everything life , certainly apply forum public discussion sez 've reading r b lately , 'll find even elementary school children access postings , albeit edited form 's making think little carefully things post come say road , conclusion , someone like austin wants post drivel obscure newsgroup n't read , fine 's got right rant , rave , wants name free speech newsgroup read , support right anyone provide rebuttal yo even elementary school children access postings , albeit edited form want hear talk like \? n't want people come group talk baseball think like \? want think 're politically correct demagogue 's oh sensitive \? \( ho hum \) plus , 're limiting free speech obscure newsgroup n't read bs got problem jacobs says , knepper thinks , defeat better ideas , better speech easy way knepper ever notice sometimes guys say darn thing pops heads mike shoved front \? know often best copy news one n't pre prepared know knepper controversial ideas women , pop question postema \( interesting related question would whether two ever appeared game top head , guess guess right , knepper popped something nothing postema gets book , n't \) , course , n't read want cut flames , post flamebait ! \( n't respond flames , either saves cyberspace \) , n't think \? \) \) \) rg play better anyone 's one barry bonds , playing two movies
mjones watson ibm com \( mike jones \) subject bonilla reply mjones donald aix kingston ibm com disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host fenway aix kingston ibm com organization ibm aix esa development , kingston ny lines 42 thf2 kimbark uchicago edu \( ted frank \) writes article mjones fenway mjones donald aix kingston ibm com writes fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu \( eric roush \) writes \( quick name light hitting black outfielder 1b lasted 10 years bigs bet name two dozen white ones \) otis nixon stole 300 bases \( ok , 's still light hitting , baseball managers n't think , think , like omar , perfect leadoff man awesome defense \) well , yeah hand , first years career looked like herb washington dan n't seem suck defensively , either darnell coles 's still around 1986 , hit 20 hr yeah , many white guys played one year long career \? 's actually uncommon phenomenon , long guy hangs around based one good year seems like reasonable question explore racial basis billy hatcher 'll see 's still around 1994 tenth year hey , plays lou gorman , n't \? ok , 's eight years ok , admit taking quick browse major league handbook , first 7 8 oh , 's time light hitting black outfielder lou brock look curt flood cesar geronimo cesar cedeno brock suffered otis nixon disease , n't perceived light hitting neither curt flood cesar cedeno light hitting good point cedeno otoh , n't seen extensive list 10 year dan , either really n't many players altogether hang around 10 years even 're reasonably good mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com may live interesting times chinese curse
fls keynes econ duke edu \( forrest smith \) subject braves update ! ! organization duke university durham , n c lines 36 nntp posting host keynes econ duke edu article 1993apr19 194025 8967 adobe com snichols adobe com \( sherri nichols \) writes reasonable umpire would 's instructed season get batters back box sooner try cut ridiculous length games one glad see happen , hope umpires hirschbeck pitcher pitch batter wo n't get back box reasonable umpire would recognized ron gant disturbed call reasonable umpire would realized 1 run game progress , two outs ninth ron gant try regain normal baseball player would done would get heated argument umpire , since ca n't argue balls strikes , would ejected game ron gant , trying avoid conflict , penalized showing restraint incidentally , reasonable home plate umpire would resistant seeking appeal first base umpire , gant requested home plate umpire appealed first , first base umpire could strike , gant would upset call ball , catcher requested appeal , likely home plate umpire would asked help finally , entire game pretty much mockery called efforts speed game game played quickly , 2 hours stuff happened ninth , delays entire game result actions umpires \( deion clean garbage field \) econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke correspondents email changed e l new address fls econ duke edu f mail bounces , try fls raphael acpub duke edu u
maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) subject jack morris organization dept computer science , laurentian university , sudbury , lines 49 aq murdoch acc virginia edu drw3l delmarva evsc virginia edu \( david robert walker \) writes cannot isolate completely , roger , make pretty good estimate wo n't claim split hairs say really measure better , robby alomar carlos baerga , last year difference close call larkin lee \? clemens morris \? differences great measure game , team ever replace single player \? since clearly best , better \? yet every team always find someplace beleive improve team always find player little better one already \( btw , definitions , best player one things help team win allow could vary depending else team , one team needs others \) well given definition best conceivable alfredo griffin could bring something team team needs win larkin might something team needs \? would griffin better larkin \? baseball team game , made individual talents absurd judge success failure individual success failure teammates , choose \( least cases \) morris last year played team joe carter , robby alomar , tom henke , juan guzman , john olerud , et al clemens lost surrounded lesser performers herm , luis rivera , jeff reardon define quality team sum components \( , albeit \) lesser error defining quality individual mean quality team \( reading arguments suggests \) , trying define quality individual , least purpose ranking toronto olerud might fielder might thomas detroit might thomas chicago might fielder ca n't rank individuals look might contribute team effort , winning ws thomas could contributed goal olerud cannot say olerud less player cordially , always , maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca many morons rm little time
ez027993 chip ucdavis edu \( gary built like villanueva huckabay \) subject speed games \( marginally realistic \) organization chef dave koresh 's bbq pits , inc \( subsidiary \) lines 30 want speed ballgames \? 1 enforce two minutes innings , many fields allowing three minutes fifteen seconds tv commercials gone , thirty action begins upon return game two minutes , last first pitch , ball called 2 n't grant time batters want may get pissed first , 'll get line , anything pitcher throws 're adjusting strike 3 mandate rule permitting n seconds pitches \( current rule lenient \) , enforce fifteen seconds enough time pitch n't released 15 , call ball , restart clock baseball games take 2 51 nl , shade 3 hours al 's damn long n't like play 3 hour games , much less watch game long butt falls asleep , i'm watching tv , 'll channel surf pitches , catching versions mr ed , leave beaver , wacky nick nite gary huckabay think 's loud enough , hole \? movie rights well , 're trouble hearing , sir , available thru 'd happy turn n't ted frank know many people age liked king 's x
fls keynes econ duke edu \( forrest smith \) subject braves giants organization duke university durham , n c lines 19 nntp posting host keynes econ duke edu article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu \( eric roush \) writes baseballs came field sunday 's , giant 's patron refused throw atlanta hr back garbage started hitting field well sunday game started thursday friday \( ca n't recall games n't watch tbs \) deion getting trash whole time , seemed announcers talked change seating bleachers , made easier events transpired actually thought start sunday since sunday crowd would little different , refined surprise \? econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke correspondents email changed e l new address fls econ duke edu f mail bounces , try fls raphael acpub duke edu u
mjones watson ibm com \( mike jones \) subject game length \( braves update ! ! reply mjones donald aix kingston ibm com disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host fenway aix kingston ibm com organization ibm aix esa development , kingston ny lines 31 nflynn wvnvms wvnet edu writes article 1993apr19 194025 8967 adobe com , snichols adobe com \( sherri nichols \) writes stuff ron gant incident deleted reasonable umpire would 's instructed season get batters back box sooner try cut ridiculous length games one glad see happen , \( ! ! ! ! \) agree hirschbeck instructed also gant listened however , policy trying speed games first person \( non mediot \) seen endorse policy problem length games tired espn crowd \( announcers \) bitching never ballpark filled people looking watches shouting hurry ! cough big bucks ticket , n't mind game last 2 10 really n't understand games longer several reasons stuff deleted maybe well nothing better , would like hear reasons longer games upset well , n't want shorter games per se , would like stop wasting much time games gant incident perfect example guy comes plate , hit , show \( show umpire , clearly gant \) feel like writing fan letter hirschbeck mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com purposes action , nothing useful narrowness thought combined energy henri frederick
snichols adobe com \( sherri nichols \) subject bonilla organization adobe systems incorporated lines 9 article 1993apr20 midway uchicago edu thf2 midway uchicago edu writes gary varsho halfway , unlikely make 3 4 way wait minute could swear varsho white sherri nichols snichols adobe com
snichols adobe com \( sherri nichols \) subject usa mcweekly stats organization adobe systems incorporated lines 9 article 1993apr20 mnemosyne cs du edu gspira nyx cs du edu \( greg spira \) writes uh , bill james n't sell statistics sells books statistics , business providing stats like elias , stats , howe , baseball workshop etc bill james , however , closely tied stats sherri nichols snichols adobe com
pablo jhunix hcf jhu edu \( pablo iglesias \) subject braves update ! ! organization homewood academic computing , johns hopkins university , baltimore , md , usa lines 23 nntp posting host jhunix hcf jhu edu article news duke edu fls keynes econ duke edu \( forrest smith \) writes argument reasonable players umpires deleted incidentally , reasonable home plate umpire would resistant seeking appeal first base umpire , gant requested home plate umpire appealed first , first base umpire could strike , gant would upset call ball , catcher requested appeal , likely home plate umpire would asked help yes , baseball rules say appeal ball strike decision made umpire regarding appeal called strike call could changed thought umpire right thing pablo iglesias pi ruth ece jhu edu
sac saic com \( steve conroy \) subject game length \( braves update ! ! organization saic lines 37 article 1993apr20 wvnvms wvnet edu , nflynn wvnvms wvnet edu writes article 1993apr19 194025 8967 adobe com , snichols adobe com \( sherri nichols \) writes however , policy trying speed games first person \( non mediot \) seen endorse policy problem length games tired espn crowd \( announcers \) bitching never ballpark filled people looking watches shouting hurry ! cough big bucks ticket , n't mind game last 2 10 really n't understand major league baseball trying expand appeal people shorter attention spans \( e football crowd \) \( invariably , arguments people n't like watch baseball v say thing games long boring baseball trying find way shorten games wider v appeal look , though , baseball games last around amount time football games difference action duration football games perhaps action baseball games , would get fans tune anyway , coming solution make baseball appealing bigger crowd going difficult soapbox yet another reason get since 's obvious ruling baseball works fast snail race nebraska soapbox steve steve conroy conroy terminus saic com i'm gone , man solid gone ! science applications international corporation
pablo jhunix hcf jhu edu \( pablo iglesias \) subject speed games \( marginally realistic \) organization homewood academic computing , johns hopkins university , baltimore , md , usa lines 36 nntp posting host jhunix hcf jhu edu article ucdavis edu ez027993 chip ucdavis edu \( gary built like villanueva huckabay \) writes want speed ballgames \? 1 enforce two minutes innings , many fields allowing three minutes fifteen seconds tv commercials gone , thirty action begins upon return game two minutes , last first pitch , ball called 2 n't grant time batters want may get pissed first , 'll get line , anything pitcher throws 're adjusting strike 3 mandate rule permitting n seconds pitches \( current rule lenient \) , enforce fifteen seconds enough time pitch n't released 15 , call ball , restart clock 've ever seen called back around 1979 1980 think steve carlton pitching hand , sure much effect would seems time lost runners base rule cover wondered pitcher given 8 pitches enters game let 's serious relief pitcher normally throwing bullpen minutes really need 8 pitches \? pablo iglesias pi ruth ece jhu edu
hhenderson vax clarku edu subject game length \( braves update ! ! organization clark university lines 51 ecaxron ariel lerc nasa gov \( ron graham \) writes hesitate make assumptions people write , neither two sound though kids , may spouses either wonder say \? n't see spouse kids would anything might brought kids game wanted get home time get bed reasonable hour \( case 'd probably decide take kids games weekends , many people , else prepared leave game early \) , say later , n't bring kids spouse game happens , husband kids , husband usually games extra innings could put well past midnight even without extra innings , score beyond 2 1 ca n't see family night next day , may bag well see 's problem n't bring wife ballgame , 's problem even game goes trim 2 1 2 hours far work next day , n't really understand 's necessary , unless going game also means consume vast quantities beer \( note case many guys \) n't think get go work long evening , n't long evenings week stuff enters consideration even going game say n't care whether game sped , saying n't care time goes , game people n't families n't get work next day look pay 8 00 20 00 apiece tickets , plus 10 00 parking , plus spending time energy driving boston , plus spending additional money concessions etc ballpark , see going game considerable investment time money ca n't afford go lot games hence , going game big deal , like going play opera maybe money go games year long , 's big deal i'm interested games sped , want die cut convenient version two hours felt going night game week would interfere family life work life , 'd choose go weekend game heather hhenderson vax clarku edu
snichols adobe com \( sherri nichols \) subject game length \( braves update ! ! organization adobe systems incorporated lines 45 article 1993apr20 wvnvms wvnet edu nflynn wvnvms wvnet edu writes agree hirschbeck instructed also gant listened however , policy trying speed games first person \( non mediot \) seen endorse policy wholeheartedly endorse problem length games tired espn crowd \( announcers \) bitching never ballpark filled people looking watches shouting hurry ! cough big bucks ticket , n't mind game last 2 10 really n't understand n't many 's games , \? seriously , n't mind baseball game lasts long time lasts long time good baseball played however , n't like 3 2 games take 3 hours , 's lot dead time going game n't find anything exciting watching batter pitcher wander around pitches , watching catcher make slow walk mound , watching lots pitcher changes good reason \( whitey herzog used master game could way reach , 'd still making switches platoon advantage \) want see game , people standing around n't really enjoy watching nfl football games person , example , 's much dead time \( n't really notice much dead time watch television , 're busy showing replays \) n't like college basketball games many time outs end game \( ncaa made moves try alleviate problem next year 're going stop clock made late games next year , 're going 35 second clock \) 's also difference tolerant long games i'm watching tube , i'm going person , going 's game become major commitment time , one i'm willing make often length games costing 's revenue sherri nichols snichols adobe com
snichols adobe com \( sherri nichols \) subject braves update ! ! organization adobe systems incorporated lines 48 article 13586 news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu \( eric roush \) writes 1 \) since time immemorial , batters complained calls pitchers catchers however , batters n't use go bad calls degree unless league notified teams year allowing complaints , hirschbeck acting expectations everyone told new emphasis speeding games rule hirschbeck invoked books long time 2 \) 's gant hirschbeck 's face nobody , including hirschbeck , ever said gant turned away , hirschbeck immediately motioned gant step box imo , point time , hirschbeck determined show gant exactly charge game gant n't dawdling n't chance hirschbeck simply exercising power play 's \( perhaps colored braves \) perception hirschbeck 's view gant heading long walk , accordance instructions concerning speeding games , directed batter 's box gant resisted , many us might thought unreasonable request , hirschbeck called pitch point , based rulebook instructions , unreasonable request braves already upset imo , game remember name umpire bad game umpire gant done instructed , would n't remembered name umpire sherri nichols snichols adobe com
tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) subject jack morris organization cornell univ cs dept , ithaca ny 14853 lines 20 article 1993apr20 ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) writes \( btw , definitions , best player one things help team win allow could vary depending else team , one team needs others \) well given definition best conceivable alfredo griffin could bring something team team needs win larkin might something team needs \? find conceivable also cannot conceive possibility hypothetical team morris would help clemens would griffin better larkin \? given premise , yes alone ability conceive premise valentine
rising zoo toronto edu \( jim rising \) subject modest request organization u toronto zoology lines 24 finding volume stuff rec sport baseball overwhelming ca 200 posts day effect builds , many posts get dumped system could probably fix n't time read event guess mine common problem ideas would help 1 person generally post one article day 2 limit extent previous posts reproduced posts 3 n't post mindless , ' , ' e g jays best ! jays suck 4 n't respond mindless posts , e g jack morris better pitcher frank viola 's world series know use key get posts , bump interesting posts disk 5 use goddamn shift key etc makes posts easier read name jim rising mail dept zoology , univ toronto , toronto , ontario , canada m5s uucp uunet ! ! utzoo ! rising bitnet rising zoo utoronto ca
msilverm nyx cs du edu \( mike silverman \) subject mystery ron gant organization university denver , dept math comp sci lines 12 experts want analyze ron gant \? early season slump still swinging bat way last year \( trying hit fields , etc \) changed swing back old gant small early season slump spot int lineup even secure , especially way hitting \? msilverm nyx cs du edu go cubs ! ! ! one likes believe freedom baseball geddy lee
msilverm nyx cs du edu \( mike silverman \) subject ray lankford question organization university denver , dept math comp sci lines 12 anybody know going lankford \? know games slight injury , since \( injury matter \) really struggling plate ray lankford saw last year \? \? \? msilverm nyx cs du edu go cubs ! ! ! one likes believe freedom baseball geddy lee
snichols adobe com \( sherri nichols \) subject relative value players organization adobe systems incorporated lines 14 article world std com jle world std com \( joe leonard \) writes always thought reasonable means measuring value players attempt determine team would trade one another major problem analysis ignores age even morris performing well clemens right , likely season , nobody would trade clemens morris straight clemens career left sherri nichols snichols adobe com
drm6640 tesla njit edu subject best first basemen organization new jersey institute technology lines 2 nntp posting host tesla mattingly best first baseman history baseball always always ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
pcollac pyrnova mis pyramid com \( paul collacchi \) subject braves giants case study weaknesses reply pcollac pyrnova mis pyramid com \( paul collacchi \) distribution usa organization pyramid technologies , mt view , california lines 24 article 1993apr20 bnlux1 bnl gov , bnlux1 bnl gov \( kenton yee \) writes sunday 's game exposed weaknesses teams quite clearly , braves vulnerable braves' weaknesses \) weak defense couple bond 's doubles clayton would 've caught better outfield b \) weak bullpen ha ha , howell ! observation straw bullpen lefties , stanton strong , learning new pitch bullpen fine , probably superior c \) reliance pendleton pendleton slump becomes team slump also false gant , nixon , justice , hunter , blauser present decent enough offense everyone \( except blauser \) , pendleton btw , story brian hunter \? dog house \? paul collacchi
dorin ksr com \( bob dorin \) subject texas rangers roster please help ! organization kendall square research corp lines 19 need little help texas rangers expert yankee stadium sunday \( 12 2 texas \) kids wandered outfield rangers batting practice caught ball tossed stands \( actually guy bit , might add \) 62 rangers \? looked like bullpen assistant type , think roster listed yankee ideas \? please e mail n't reading r b regularly thanks bob name bob dorin company kendall square research email dorin ksr com , ksr ! dorin
ccohen pitt edu \( caleb n cohen \) subject speed games \( marginally realistic \) lines 21 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 pablo iglesias \( pablo jhunix hcf jhu edu \) wrote wondered pitcher given 8 pitches enters game let 's serious relief pitcher normally throwing bullpen minutes really need 8 pitches \? relief pitcher n't get 8 pitches , would n't enough time 1 \) play hit road jack 2 \) iron city relief pitcher commercial 3 \) announcers detail us exactly drove previous one game 4 \) detailed biography , personal statistical , new guy throwing 8 pitches 5 \) get really cool super slo mo pictures diamond vision put said pitchers name stats ! caleb
kahn troi cc rochester edu \( james kahn \) subject jewish broadcasters \( jewish baseball players \? \) nntp posting host troi cc rochester edu organization university rochester \( rochester , ny \) lines 4 let 's forget al michaels , believe miracles \? fame jim
maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) subject jack morris organization dept computer science , laurentian university , sudbury , lines 40 lynx unm edu kbos carina unm edu \( k mitchell bose \) writes article 1993apr19 ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) writes manuel lee better jeff blauser , lee team last year would wearing ring year er er yes manny lee team last year , team would toronto blue jays team albuquerque leftturns manny lee team , would wearing ring would , however , manny lee 's team , manny lee team last year team would albuquerque leftturns would toronto blue jays toronto blue jays , might well wearing ring \( 's big deal everybody got ws ring jays win \) 's whole point n't \? clemens n't get ring morris way , blue jays win jack morris team jack morris blue jays team effort , individual one exactly morris part team would jays clemens \? never know know jays morris could possibly say clemens better year \? pitcher baseball could better year morris last year cordially , always , maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca many morons rm little time
tom ssd csd harris com \( tom horsley \) subject real way speed ballgames organization harris computer systems division lines 24 nntp posting host amber ssd csd harris com reply ez027993 chip ucdavis edu 's message tue , 20 apr 1993 15 51 37 gmt real way speed ballgames home park owner offer following schedule bonuses players teams players participated game , offer 500 10 minutes less 3 hours game took \( e game took 2 5 hours , player gets bonus 1500 \) pitchers throwing 3 full innings game , extrapolate number pitches attempted number would thrown full 9 innings , offer 500 number less 120 \( pitcher throws complete game 100 pitches 5 throws first would get 7500 \) suspect could finance way presidential campaigns paid offer fan ticket says want 5 price ticket go towards fast game bonuses domain csd harris com usmail tom horsley uucp ! uunet ! hcx1 ! 511 circle beach , fl censorship form obscenity \( wait , forgot government tobacco subsidies \)
msilverm nyx cs du edu \( mike silverman \) subject let 's play name game ! organization university denver , dept math comp sci lines 41 nl chicago wait til next years new york bunch egos mitch williams blows games pittsburg montreal canadiens \( love name ! \) st louis cardinals \( boring ! \) miami marlins \( try telling tampa marlins florida 's \) san diego 's going men children los angeles disables san francisco get past number five fines atlanta bills colorado pitching 10 houston al new york boston wow , 're cleveland good hit pitchers detroit lions \( hey , score 20 every game also ! \) toronto god jack morris baltimore great park bankrupt owners milwaukee n't drink water drink beer kansas city oh god oakland eck blow saves texas bashers california wo n't win 'll sure hell seattle chicago find way lose agains minnesota msilverm nyx cs du edu go cubs ! ! ! one likes believe freedom baseball geddy lee
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject jays' darrin jackson nightmare ! organization university toronto chemistry department lines 36 article 1993apr19 r node hub org shadow r node hub org \( jay chu \) writes jackson bum thought jays smart get rid gruber get equally bad ! i'm frustrated pat rated sure , good moves past , releasing wells \( although temper sucks , 's better morris stewart \) jays dumping salaries keep jackson , one go wells course dumped , 's late since 's salary guarenteed wells jays hook 25 \( \? \) give jackson break lost 10 pounds flu traded wells already claimed tigers \( 0 6 era 2 wins ! \) also , jimmy key winfield situations pissed hell outta would see championship club wanting repeat badly wanted would rather molitor winfield winfield hogging credit , trying soak jays 3 year guarenteed contract great \? way look pittsburg penguins got aging players , n't make stupid trades dump cuz fans love players still core team anyways , want say jays go 500 season , wo n't surprised i'm jumping bandwagon , i'm talking smart baseball matter , i'm still going see jays games even though i'm damn frustrated ! jays pitching get better molitor alomar n't hit anything yet jays still 500 gerald
cs902043 ariel yorku ca \( shawn luddington \) subject let 's play name game ! organization york university , toronto , canada lines 10 changing team names ! post choices ! 'll start baltimore baseblazers san francisco quakes shawn go rangers ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
stwombly cs ulowell edu \( steve twombly \) subject red sox mailing list query organization umass lowell computer science lines 10 article andrew cmu edu robert ward andrew cmu edu writes friend england looking red sox mailing list know list , could please send mail info \? thank bosox request world std com mail list bosox world std com steve
sam steamer clam com \( sam mandelbaum \) subject yankee thoughts organization clam associates , cambridge , lines 76 yes everyone seems agreement yankees finally moving right direction finish 500 year maybe even pennent race august however , would take back moves 1 jim abbott trade think abbott person , great pitcher also could win cy young year , wo n't right side yanks infield n't good enough good trade \? jt snow many rookies able step immediately impact far angels \? know 's early , 've seen kid hit , field talk tell going tremendous player yanks kept mattingly , ask \? well 's great yanks taken care remained loyal , 's 10 years older snow n't bat speed back injury 's shame , yankee fan wants see best yankee team , 'd take snow mattingly first yanks also gave two promising snow abbott besides , jean , taylor , wickman , militello , sterling hitchcock , loaded know 26 , much give believe george forced trade believes \( 's right \) abbott big hit ny however , 'd like see yankees build baseball team , amusement show 2 wade boggs live boston like wade lot , career winding would rather see yanks start develop long term solution \( e hensley , russ davis , velarde \? \) besides , wade n't range shame charlie hayes , huh \? 3 spike owen see wade boggs 'd much rather see develop dave silvestri whoever wade spike next infield going raise yankee staff era 1 2 point guys sides careers 4 danny tartabull yes 's put tremendous numbers 's nice think could ever healthy year never expect 120 games max meanwhile , gerald williams playing columbus paul playing left field ! believe led nl outfielders assists last year tartabull poor defensive outfielder i'm basically getting yanks moving right direction ready win pennent year \( gm level \) planning 1994 1995 world series means getting younger players experience majors ready year two i'm afraid stuff george certainly , boggs deal george looks like george planning right mix veterans young players win world series veterans always available added time \( like boston year \) develop young players first , add one two veterans \( yankees case , keep \) let 's us yankee fans hope george n't dismantle terrific job stick company done building yankee organization back one respect i'm really afraid trade whoever takes patch holes today \( relief pitching example \) george must realize yankees rebuilding process still one two years away patience george enjoy future fire bucky trade kids 's baseball hell loyal yankee fans long time ! sam i'm militello millitello mandelbaum
mss netcom com \( mark singer \) subject mlb nba \? organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 56 article 93109 vma cc nd edu rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes article netcom com , mss netcom com \( mark singer \) says 1 \) would owners decrease ticket prices obviously get lots people pay price 're asking \? n't think obvious lots people willing pay price i'm sure someone net land facts trends attendance regarding percentage capacity sold even trends relatively flat , consider happening team team basis tv money dries , franchises seeking lost revenues alternative sources one best sources may ticket sales example 1 dodgers dodgers count strong base season ticket sales probably believe ability raise prices without hindering revenues certainly think true example 2 padres lucky average 10 , 000 fans game year raise prices , less want increase overall revenue base , best thing put winning team field given wo n't happen \( wo n't \) , probably make money lowering ticket prices running frequent \? idea wo n't increase prices , wo n't work 2 \) even assuming strange power make owners decrease ticket prices , decrease tv contract strange powers work forces market place team 's market somewhat different , owner going faced unique set circumstances deal market forces manager , would never want lower prices , sometimes strategy necessary , sometimes works consider everything want continued success beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
mss netcom com \( mark singer \) subject game length \( braves update ! ! organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 29 article 1993apr20 adobe com snichols adobe com \( sherri nichols \) writes n't many 's games , \? 's also difference tolerant long games i'm watching tube , i'm going person , going 's game become major commitment time , one i'm willing make often length games costing 's revenue stopped going 's games years ago still lived inthe bay area exactly reason believe length games institutionalized larussa duncan encourage pitchers overly deliberate , throw first often , study signals , almost every 's hitter takes step box every pitch , imo , coincidence planned hate gant situation , see game replays wonder gant requested time \? would hirschbeck required give \? could denied \? \( ump \) knew , gant could dirt eye mark singer mss netcom com
barring cs washington edu \( david barrington \) subject moe berg organization computer science engineering , u washington , seattle lines 22 npr morning interview linda mccarthy \( name possibly garbled \) , official historian cia research moe berg tv documentary \( know nothing sounds good \) said among things , berg principal spy oss \( cia 's wwii precursor \) spying axis atomic programs , physics background language skills said war met heisenberg switzerland , instructions shoot heisenberg germans close us bomb research \( concluded two years behind , n't shoot \) \( heard elsewhere heisenberg deliberately misled nazi bomb program , n't know reliable \) unfortunately , npr n't mention kind book 's writing 'd certainly buy \( case 're wondering baseball relevance , berg longtime mlb backup catcher member mlb star team toured japan 1934 , presumably baseball prowess one americans , much less mlb players , spoke japanese photos took tokyo trip later used plan bombing raids , according mccarthy \) dave mb
nflynn wvnvms wvnet edu subject game length \( braves update ! ! organization west virginia network educational telecomputing lines 41 article 1993apr19 194025 8967 adobe com , snichols adobe com \( sherri nichols \) writes stuff ron gant incident deleted reasonable umpire would 's instructed season get batters back box sooner try cut ridiculous length games one glad see happen , \( ! ! ! ! \) agree hirschbeck instructed also gant listened however , policy trying speed games first person \( non mediot \) seen endorse policy problem length games tired espn crowd \( announcers \) bitching never ballpark filled people looking watches shouting hurry ! cough big bucks ticket , n't mind game last 2 10 really n't understand games longer several reasons pitching changes , basestealing \( throws first \) , etc think small factor increased time takes jose canseco deion sanders insert fancy ballplayer arrange jewelry prior stepping batter 's box impression writers made issue like shorter games get head back hotel bar , eat steaks , get drunk , tell stupid jokes pals chase around bar sure want game print journalists slightly legitimate reason wanting faster games deadlines espn guys baseball tonight drive crazy constantly primarily often work late game goes longer 2 30 maybe well nothing better , would like hear reasons longer games upset parenthetical note , seems league case fighting losing battle year increased offense thus far certainly spoil hopes getting games quickly nick flynn
mjones watson ibm com \( mike jones \) subject dopson pitches first shutout red sox win 6 0 reply mjones donald aix kingston ibm com disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host fenway aix kingston ibm com organization ibm aix esa development , kingston ny lines 23 cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu \( oriolefan uiuc \) writes jmann vineland pubs stratus com \( jim mann \) writes john dopson pitched first major league shutout red sox beat white sox 6 0 6 sox runs came 6th inning , featured big hits , among others , vaughan greenwell sox 10 3 first team majors win 10 games ! yes ! 'll never last , god 's good 's ! someone told game started 10 05 cdt true \? \? right mind would go game monday \? \? \? \? well , 's holiday massachusetts called day three things happen day almost businesses closed , sox play morning game , run boston marathon mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com nothing deadly hold people opportunity great wonderful things , wish stimulate active way dr harold , nobel chemistry
mjones watson ibm com \( mike jones \) subject hbp \? bb \? big cat \? distribution na reply mjones donald aix kingston ibm com disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host fenway aix kingston ibm com organization ibm aix esa development , kingston ny lines 26 kubey sgi com \( ken kubey \) writes finally , 'd like point many high obp guys draw walks pitchers afraid throw strike , great eye comes periodically , n't get take , example , mark mcgwire walked 90 times 1993 's potential great example 're talking n't know let 's look happens mcgwire n't walk 75 time made 10 time hit single 5 time hit double 10 time hit homer , 're pitching mcgwire would trade 20 walks 2 homers , 1 double , 2 singles , 15 outs \? would give base get 3 times 4 \? guys like alex cole , career 363 obp even though 's never batting average 300 \( hit 300 227 ab 1990 \) hit single home run yep , 's right , 's never hit homer 916 ab 's end 1992 'd afraid throw strike \? mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com 've never prejudiced sex ! entertained , yes , never prejudiced ! justice dan snow \( walter \)
dtate pitt edu \( david tate \) subject mvp '92 revisited keywords mlb , 04 20 organization department industrial engineering lines 93 tim shippert recently posted summaries last year 's defensive average stats terms linear weights estimated run value defensive performances , compared league average 've combined position adjusted mlv numbers come first approximation total run values players last year use mvp award major caveats numbers include defensive park adjustment , san diego really question odd scoring gopher holes infield , cause inaccuracies offensive numbers position adjusted , park adjusted , deflate inflate others fair finally , still n't know catchers , idea evaluate defensive contributions tony phillips roberts said , still surprises let 's look national league first numbers total runs contributed season player offense defense total sandberg 44 32 76 bonds 67 3 70 walker 26 26 52 justice 14 33 47 daulton 44 \? \? 44 \? larkin 36 4 40 grace 13 27 40 see , legitimate mvp candidates last season deflate sandberg 's offense wee bit playing wrigley , get essentially dead heat bonds usual defensive self , would n't close , apparently n't case darren daulton needs 22 defensive runs make offensive difference , could n't tell whether 's easy impossible good case could made sandberg , bonds , daulton top dude personal vote bonds , sandberg , daulton , walker , justice american league player offense defense total ventura 22 34 56 martinez 47 1 46 b anderson 21 25 46 thomas 47 5 42 r henderson 25 16 41 raines 17 23 40 tettleton 33 \? \? 33 \? ok , let 's see show hands many picked robin ventura top player al last year \? certainly n't , 'd hard time arguing point yes , know numbers approximate , 's big gap 2 guy also , thought rickey henderson stank last year minds , 's catcher ointment calling game important might , 23 runs easy make \( give away \) take guess , folks n't think better personal vote \( excluding pitchers \) ventura , tettleton , anderson , martinez , henderson i'm big frank thomas fan , admit bias favor balanced offensive defensive contribution , higher leverage w l record equal shift lots offense negative defense record carlos baerga 27 5 32 roberto alomar 35 2 33 forget 's wash let also take opportunity admit grossly wrong regarding mattingly 's defense past season recovered weak '90 '91 end mattingly 1 17 16 runs clearly average first baseman however , 's still 18 runs behind mark mcgwire , 26 runs behind frank thomas , 7 runs behind john olerud hand , 's ahead rafael , cecil fielder , every al first baseman yet mentioned david tate \( dtate pitt edu \) greetings , sir , bat quick member iie , orsa , tims , sabr hands soft , eye discerning denver call slugger \? big catullus galarraga compare mattingly ! \?
barring cs washington edu \( david barrington \) subject red sox choke contest organization computer science engineering , u washington , seattle lines 21 encourage great tradition red sox , contest predict magnitude fall current heights must decide first , whether sox 500 time year must predict either \( 1 \) record first time 're 500 , , \( 2 \) final record , stay 500 rest year valentine 's earlier prediction would go 13 13 \( resend serious , val ! \) espn pointed last night last sox start better 1952 , finished 76 78 , sixth place email guess , either barring cs washington edu directly replying post entries close 5 pm pdt wed 28 apr 1993 dave mb
mzimmers netcom com \( michael zimmers \) subject game length \( braves update ! ! organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 33 article 20apr93 vax clarku edu hhenderson vax clarku edu writes nflynn wvnvms wvnet edu writes however , policy trying speed games first person \( non mediot \) seen endorse policy problem length games tired espn crowd \( announcers \) bitching never ballpark filled people looking watches shouting hurry ! cough big bucks ticket , n't mind game last 2 10 really n't understand agree nick 's big deal long games \? want watch baseball , 's much baseball watch yes , baseball includes space plays well plays first , longer game way suggests baseball watch , unless include watching grass grow baseball games batters stepping box , pitchers taking longer pitches excessive trips mound managers pitching coaches 's true gaps plays interesting , true n't become extra long quickly pitched games grab hold attention much better bring back two hour baseball game ! \( three half hour golf game ! \) michael zimmers voice 408 996 1965 suppliers software developers data 408 996 1974
ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( theodore j \) subject lame , dumb useless question organization university buffalo lines 27 news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host ubvmsb cc buffalo edu article 93109 vma cc nd edu , rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes ok , three balls batter pitcher proceeds bean batter walk hit pitch \? bob vesterman hbp , reminds favorite \( \? sp \? \) drysdale story ordered intentionally walk batter hot two previous bats , drysdale back first pitch drilled right ribs manager came storming dugout yelled \? drysdale back , complaining \? saved three pitches ! incidentally , true , 'd love know people involved ted one man stands wall , cracks wall , suny buffalo cracks wall , cracks wall comes dept economics
dtate pitt edu \( david tate \) subject speed games \( marginally realistic \) organization department industrial engineering lines 25 ez027993 chip ucdavis edu \( gary built like villanova huckabay \) said baseball games take 2 51 nl , shade 3 hours al 's damn long n't like play 3 hour games , much less watch game long butt falls asleep , i'm watching tv , 'll channel surf pitches , catching versions mr ed , leave beaver , wacky nick nite , gary , certain sofa like , advantage watch pirates kbl , mets , braves tbs , mediots espn time , without missing anything \( something impressive happens , 'll catch replay \) \) , see \( essentially \) 4 games 3 hours , instead 1 game 2 hours deal ! \( insert smileys desired \) david tate \( dtate pitt edu \) greetings , sir , bat quick member iie , orsa , tims , sabr hands soft , eye discerning denver call slugger \? big catullus galarraga compare mattingly ! \?
kime mongoose torolab ibm com \( edward kim \) subject relative value players reply jle world std com 's message tue , 20 apr 1993 05 19 28 gmt lines 49 organization ibm toronto lab article world std com jle world std com \( joe leonard \) writes folks jump , let ask net would jays al good pitcher aaa place morris \( given run support \) \? average ml pitcher \? ca n't believe morris' performance playoffs series large positive impact jays performance know 's trendy nowadays dump morris , let 's give credit credit due doubtful blue jays would al east without morris last year , team went 13 15 month august , starters shelled , milwaukee making charge , morris went 5 1 pretty good era \( ca n't remember exactly \) also , let 's underestimate importance 240 innings save bullpen every fifth day n't help us win al east , forget pennent world series run support high \( 5 98 runs \) 's \( 5 90 runs \) 12 games remember morris winning inordinate number 6 5 8 6 ballgames , credit pitched good needed 6 1 ballgame , put cruise control threw ball let batters get themseleves \( hate expression ! \) inexperienced pitcher would wear trying make perfect pitches keep era morris , veteran pitcher , knows winning thing really matters baseball saving , able reach back little extra \( hate ! \) game line yes morris big time year , let 's change history suit present btw , think put bullpen would embarrassing veteran pitcher cito would never , era 17 , much embarrassed \? sit , 'll let others excellent players 'll settle good enough ring \) ditto ! joe leonard jle world std com eddie
klinker itd nrl navy mil \( eric klinker \) subject jays' darrin jackson nightmare ! organization naval research laboratory lines 19 give jackson break lost 10 pounds flu traded dj popular player san diego , derek bell faring well clubhouse toronto , matter bad looks still think steal jays perspective team chemistry statistic describe \( sorry \) since many new faces clubhouse think jays still trying find \( insert comment jack morris v clemens ws ring string \) yet first sad see derek go , still anticipating talent beginning last season i'm glad see faring well padres though eric
re4 prism gatech edu \( russell earnest \) subject braves giants case study weaknesses summary 's hurt distribution usa organization georgia institute technology lines 14 article pyramid pyramid com , pcollac pyrnova mis pyramid com \( paul collacchi \) writes btw , story brian hunter \? dog house \? paul collacchi , brian 's hurt hand think started saturday 's game taken 's far early dog house , although bedrock seen read memory process ! russell earnest georgia institute technology , atlanta georgia , 30332 uucp ! allegra , amd , hplabs , seismo , ut ngp ! gatech ! prism ! re4 arpa russell earnest housing gatech edu
rkoffler ux4 cso uiuc edu \( bighelmet \) subject moe berg organization university illinois urbana lines 31 barring cs washington edu \( david barrington \) writes npr morning interview linda mccarthy \( name possibly garbled \) , official historian cia research moe berg tv documentary \( know nothing sounds good \) said among things , berg principal spy oss \( cia 's wwii precursor \) spying axis atomic programs , physics background language skills said war met heisenberg switzerland , instructions shoot heisenberg germans close us bomb research \( concluded two years behind , n't shoot \) \( heard elsewhere heisenberg deliberately misled nazi bomb program , n't know reliable \) unfortunately , npr n't mention kind book 's writing 'd certainly buy dave mb great book called also served ballplayers wwii info berg also info pete gray \( one armed outfielder \) players era draft many players war exempt draft medical reasons interesting stories book well written would suggest reading anyone interest baseball rob live day day rkoffler ux4 cso uiuc edu dream tomorrow
mcole miracle informix com \( mary cole \) subject seeking star game info reply mcole miracle informix com organization informix software lines 10 ok , ok , ok first , apologies perhaps subject material perhaps overly optimistic request , goes anyhow i'm interested finding might able get two tickets star game baltimore year aged folks live 50 miles away know would great thing attend game went , grandfather got baseball small child , star game dc many years ago although i'm sf bay area , 'd love able treat folks game 's absolutely last chance 'd ever attend g ame locally info would greatly appreciated ! ! ! ! mary cole mcole informix com
davidm gvls2 vfl paramax com \( david madden \) subject speed games \( marginally realistic \) organization paramax systems corporation , pa lines 45 nntp posting host gvls2 article ucdavis edu , ez027993 chip ucdavis edu \( gary built like villanueva huckabay \) writes want speed ballgames \? 3 mandate rule permitting n seconds pitches \( current rule lenient \) , enforce fifteen seconds enough time pitch n't released 15 , call ball , restart clock remember post last year indicating pitch clock tried one minor leagues time back work n't remember said work anyone remember \? jody wip phil saying pitch clock inevitable would pitch clock work throws first \? another pair suggestions 1 remove balk rule runners responsibility stay safe matter pitcher 2 pitcher throws occupied base x time \( x 3 5 \) without successfully picking runner , runner advances base walked balk seems give pitcher advantage base walk allows runner challenge pitcher throw base baseball games take 2 51 nl , shade 3 hours al 's damn long n't like play 3 hour games , much less watch game long butt falls asleep , i'm watching tv , 'll channel surf pitches , catching versions mr ed , leave beaver , wacky nick nite , find surfing know enough time pitch allow batter adjust gary huckabay think 's loud enough , hole \? movie rights well , 're trouble hearing , sir , available thru 'd happy turn n't ted frank know many people age liked king 's x david madden
sbp002 acad drake edu subject cardinals mailing list \? \? \? lines 15 nntp posting host acad drake edu organization drake university , des moines , iowa , usa article poe husc harvard edu , poe husc10 harvard edu \( leslie poe \) writes likewise , would love know cardinals mailing list please e mail information thanks lot les poe poe husc harvard edu fifth request find cardinals mailing list looks like one exist anyone initiative , creating list might worthwhile activity sam passer
stsci edu subject jack morris lines 44 organization space telescope science institute distribution na article 1993apr20 ramsey cs laurentian ca , maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) writes aq murdoch acc virginia edu drw3l delmarva evsc virginia edu \( david robert walker \) writes comments deleted bandwidth \( god knows , need \) \) baseball team game , made individual talents absurd judge success failure individual success failure teammates , choose \( least cases \) morris last year played team joe carter , robby alomar , tom henke , juan guzman , john olerud , et al clemens lost surrounded lesser performers herm , luis rivera , jeff reardon define quality team sum components \( , albeit \) lesser error defining quality individual mean quality team \( reading arguments suggests \) , trying define quality individual , least purpose ranking toronto olerud might fielder might thomas detroit might thomas chicago might fielder ca n't rank individuals look might contribute team effort , winning ws thomas could contributed goal olerud cannot say olerud less player ok , roger , 's question say running expansion team n't team moment , draft coming going pick , guys ws rings , guys could contribute team say reds dumb enough protect larkin , jays n't protect alfredo would pick \? \( ca n't believe i'm getting involved \) john cordially , always , maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca many morons rm little time
mss netcom com \( mark singer \) subject real way speed ballgames organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 32 article tom amber ssd csd harris com tom ssd csd harris com \( tom horsley \) writes real way speed ballgames home park owner offer following schedule bonuses players teams details deleted suspect could finance way presidential campaigns paid offer fan ticket says want 5 price ticket go towards fast game bonuses oh , great fans subsidize cost speeding games n't want see sped terrific oh forgot checking box finance presidential campaigns n't cost us taxpayers anything believe tooth fairy , \? beastmaster \( sorry hate sarcastic beautiful day \) mark singer mss netcom com
paula koufax cv hp com \( paul andresen \) subject mlb nba \? nntp posting host koufax cv hp com organization hewlett packard company , corvallis , oregon usa lines 20 article kbanaian 495 bernard pitzer claremont edu , kbanaian bernard pitzer claremont edu \( king banaian \) writes absolutely , positively , quite , causation runs salaries ticket prices two decisions owners raise ticket prices costs raise ticket prices demand seats risen \( wish bold type \) evidence , please come intro econ course , somewhere around lecture four sunk costs , opportunity costs , marginal costs right ticket prices set maximize revenue period excellent discussion works , see gerald scully 's book couple years back , titled \( think \) business baseball stretch farm animal beyond natural length paula koufax cv hp com paul andresen hewlett packard \( 503 \) 750 3511 home 3006 nw mckinley corvallis , 97330 \( 503 \) 752 8424 sabr member since 1979
maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) subject jack morris organization dept computer science , laurentian university , sudbury , distribution na lines 31 1993apr20 1 stsci edu stsci edu writes ok , roger , 's question say running expansion team n't team moment , draft coming going pick , guys ws rings , guys could contribute team say reds dumb enough protect larkin , jays n't protect alfredo would pick \? expansion team \? i'm pretty sure would go rings , long salaries ages n't high would want fans able identify players would like championship attitude clubhouse larkin griffin \? salaries aside , would consider player contribute ws victory past performance , age attitude would integral decision certainly would n't haul copy pick larkin , many others would , unlike many others post group , hardly consider make kinds decisions \( ca n't believe i'm getting involved \) never able believe , tell truth 's like banging head stone wall cordially , always , maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca many morons rm little time
acsddc umassd edu subject usa today ftp site reply acsddc umassd edu organization umass dartmouth , dartmouth , lines 13 article cc swarthmore edu , cc swarthmore edu \( robert brooks \) writes tudelft nl \( k p hart \) writes sometime ago someone mentioned ftp site run usa today give scores last night 's games kind soul e mail address \? please thanks anyone knows site could please send also thanks dan acsddc umassd edu
acsddc umassd edu subject red sox mailing list query reply acsddc umassd edu organization umass dartmouth , dartmouth , lines 12 article andrew cmu edu , robert ward andrew cmu edu writes friend england looking red sox mailing list know list , could please send mail info \? thank would interested also , one could someone please send info \? dan acsddc umassd edu
organization stanford linear accelerator center thomas slacvm slac stanford edu subject jays' darrin jackson nightmare ! 1993apr20 alchemy chem utoronto ca bde ra nrl navy mil lines 21 article bde ra nrl navy mil , klinker itd nrl navy mil \( eric klinker \) says dj popular player san diego , derek bell faring well clubhouse toronto , matter bad looks still think steal jays perspective team chemistry statistic describe \( sorry \) since many new faces clubhouse think jays still trying find \( insert comment jack morris v clemens ws ring string \) laugh , laugh , equally publicly , jays finish third due severe depletion talent think bill james put best \( sparky anderson , abstract 1983 \) million guys country great attitudes , five hundred play major league brand baseball going take \? tom
stsci edu subject braves update ! ! lines 20 organization space telescope science institute distribution na article 1993apr20 8983 adobe com , snichols adobe com \( sherri nichols \) writes article 13586 news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu \( eric roush \) writes 1 \) since time immemorial , batters complained calls pitchers catchers however , batters n't use go bad calls degree really think key point saw incident baseball tonight sunday , could n't believe far away plate gant went casually leaned bat n't blame umpire telling pitcher pitch worst part whole incident braves coming onto field going , attack umpire \? people 've cox maybe coaches , players agree person posted cox suspended control team john
steph cs uiuc edu \( dale stephenson \) subject braves update ! ! organization university illinois , dept comp sci , urbana , il lines 43 1993apr19 194025 8967 adobe com snichols adobe com \( sherri nichols \) writes article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu \( eric roush \) writes thrown gant legitimate beef 1 0 pitch called strike reasonable umpire would tried force gant back box situation reasonable umpire would 's instructed season get batters back box sooner try cut ridiculous length games one glad see happen , hope umpires hirschbeck pitcher pitch batter wo n't get back box see want cut time spent walking around , gant n't ordered back box sooner , ordered back immediately soon stepped , hirschbeck told get back box , gant n't take lot walks pitches reason bothered call expect concentration n't yet , crucial situation imagine 's best calm possible contributing factors would gant 's bad day plate , bad year plate , braves long scoring drought , 's pretty stupid go ahead talk walk umpire telling get know umpire going something \( call strike , throw , etc \) gant wrong hirschbeck wrong , biased view aside major chip seemed shoulder , problem gant reason want time \( disputed strike call \) gant n't wasting time game game cruising along , two hours old score 1 0 , 2 outs ninth runner scoring position reason hirschbeck could n't , n't , cut gant little slack \? discernible constructive reason , hirschbeck disrupted game , caused five minute delay , hurt batter key situation date get \? still wonder terry tossed earlier game dale j stephenson \( steph cs uiuc edu \) baseball fanatic considered good look wise , especially overburdened information j golden kimball
arc cs brown edu \( anthony \) subject skydome tix organization brown university department computer science lines 14 plan toronto area sometime summer \( late june early july \) would like attend blue jay game would appreciate anyone could give information obtain tickets blue jay games would prefer get good seats assume would require going ticket broker paying ticket broker info toronto area ticket info directly blue jays would appreciated \( 'll bring oxygen need \) schedule flexible games candidates \( though 'd prefer see texas \) thanks advance tony
eugene dartmouth edu \( eugene \) subject fenway x posted internews1 newshost dartmouth edu organization dartmouth college , hanover , nh lines 6 hi anybody know ticket info fenway \? thanks eugene dartmouth edu
ur msstate edu subject harry caray nntp posting host ur msstate edu reply ur msstate edu organization mississippi state university lines 19 article oasys dt navy mil odell oasys dt navy mil \( bernard \) writes old time cardinal fan relocated area recall harry popular old man busch , , understand , fired kicked st louis quite sure reasons , old man certainly ole harry bern grew listening harry carey call games really liked , recall , fired critical \( read honest \) announcing dared point least , remember kid kay jones
kirsch staff tc umn edu \( dave 'almost cursed jays' kirsch \) subject harry caray nntp posting host staff tc umn edu organization li'l carlos hormones lines 22 article oasys dt navy mil odell oasys dt navy mil \( bernard \) writes old time cardinal fan relocated area recall harry popular old man busch , , understand , fired kicked st louis quite sure reasons , old man certainly ole harry maybe wife \) n't claim know whether 's true , couple different people \( totally unrelated \) said harry duties platonic relations busch 's wife judgement left individual , cuz sure n't claim source case dave hung like jim acker slider kirsch blue jays '93 kirsch staff tc umn edu new quotes context ! beat dead horse , 's couple o' weeks disappoints punishments discharges jackhammering stephen lawrence
drw3l delmarva evsc virginia edu \( david robert walker \) subject defensive runs da \( comments \) keywords dr organization university virginia lines 78 article gap caltech edu shippert cco caltech edu \( tim shippert \) writes reason bothered dr stuff see could determine answer age old question jeff blauser valuable rafael well , looks like , doug tim , beating net defensive analyses , tim gotten ahead way little different , course , used equivalent averages work many runs player worth , calculated rate performance \( fielding equivalent average \) total performance \( fielding equivalent runs \) compared , average player , replacement player , 's positional adjustment comes built system al 1992 , average ss 32 9 runs replacement \( rar \) cf , 31 6 2b , 28 8 3b , 26 3 lf , 26 0 rf , 24 6 1b , 16 9 may quibble exact numbers , order looks substantially right equivalent average , always set league average 235 decided hitting replacement level batter eqa 180 name replacement level hitter , often , billy ripken decided let replacement level fielder distance 235 180 , opposite direction set makes eqa 280 \( yes , add runs proportional eqa squared difference 180 squared 235 squared equals difference 279 squared , rounded simplicity \) replacement fielding team would randy milligan first \( 282 \) , willie randolph \( 269 \) second , leo gomez \( 279 \) third , walt weiss \( 269 \) short , kevin bass \( 271 \) left , hojo \( 257 \) center , eric anthony \( 277 \) right ugh , total number rar player sum batting fielding rar rate total rar , rar per number batting outs , like 400 average player total rar 55 , 30 batting , 25 fielding total rar \( bat field \) 1 bonds 152 \( 124 28 \) ventura 124 \( 66 58 \) 2 sandberg 143 \( 88 55 \) thomas 122 \( 110 12 \) 3 van slyke 122 \( 91 31 \) anderson 109 \( 75 34 \) 4 grace 114 \( 70 44 \) raines 100 \( 68 32 \) 5 lankford 111 \( 76 35 \) puckett 98 \( 76 22 \) 6 pendleton 108 \( 71 37 \) alomar 98 \( 75 23 \) 7 finley 104 \( 70 34 \) martinez e 97 \( 81 16 \) 8 bagwell 101 \( 73 28 \) mack 93 \( 70 23 \) 9 butler 96 \( 74 22 \) mcgwire 93 \( 79 14 \) 10 sheffield 96 \( 85 11 \) griffey 92 \( 70 22 \) 11 larkin 96 \( 65 31 \) 89 \( 56 34 \) 12 grissom 95 \( 57 38 \) henderson 88 \( 66 23 \) 13 walker 94 \( 61 33 \) listach 87 \( 50 37 \) 14 justice 92 \( 52 40 \) lofton 85 \( 46 39 \) 15 w clark 91 \( 73 18 \) baerga 83 \( 55 28 \) 16 kruk 82 \( 78 4 \) white 79 \( 39 40 \) 17 smith 80 \( 46 34 \) 76 \( 54 22 \) 18 gwynn 80 \( 47 33 \) sierra 76 \( 52 24 \) 19 hollins 80 \( 68 12 \) carter 73 \( 57 17 \) 20 j bell 79 \( 42 37 \) gonzalez 73 \( 60 13 \) notable entries per 400 batting rating , nl top 7 bonds , 177 , lf sandberg , 130 , 2b van slyke , 114 , cf grace , 107 , 1b larkin , 102 , ss justice , 99 , rf sheffield , 99 , 3b one position measured ! mcgriff , despite 85 batting rar , fifth league , finishes top 20 due 13 fielding last position galarraga 39 , stillwell 10 , hansen 30 , 30 \( blauser 69 , 3rd league \) , may 43 , 34 , anthony 38 al , much rickey henderson worth 120 , second frank 124 ventura edges edgar third , 116 111 grebeck rates potent 102 ! griffey edges puckett top cf , 93 90 listach lofton among rookies , 82 80 alomar clearly baerga , 97 73 last position 10 , 29 , palmer 22 , lewis 31 , polonia 40 , cuyler 26 , v hayes 39 clay
kubey sgi com \( ken kubey \) subject hbp \? bb \? big cat \? distribution na organization silicon graphics , inc , mountain view , ca lines 39 nntp posting host summit wpd sgi com article mjones fenway mjones donald aix kingston ibm com writes kubey sgi com \( ken kubey \) writes finally , 'd like point many high obp guys draw walks pitchers afraid throw strike , great eye comes periodically , n't get take , example , mark mcgwire walked 90 times 1993 's potential great example 're talking n't know let 's look happens mcgwire n't walk 75 time made 10 time hit single 5 time hit double 10 time hit homer , 're pitching mcgwire would trade 20 walks 2 homers , 1 double , 2 singles , 15 outs \? would give base get 3 times 4 \? n't say pitcher 's fear throwing strikes guys like mcgwire , bonds , frank thomas rational said exists guys like alex cole , career 363 obp even though 's never batting average 300 \( hit 300 227 ab 1990 \) hit single home run yep , 's right , 's never hit homer 916 ab 's end 1992 'd afraid throw strike \? n't know alex cole 's batting style questions tall \? go like rickey pete rose \? foul lot pitches like brett butler \? take 1 2 strikes bat \? could cole good batting eye look , said many high obp guys draw walks pitchers afraid throw strike , high obp guys ken kubey kubey wpd sgi com \( 415 \) 390 3536
jja2h virginia edu \( \) subject yankee fears organization university virginia lines 8 anyone pick worst yankee pitcher past 12 years many name steve mean try throw ball catcher trout \? jonathan uva
ns1 cc lehigh edu \( john schafer \) subject babe 's pitching organization lehigh university lines 10 anyone tell babe ruth 's complete pitching stats \? know 5 0 pitcher yankees , numbers red sox \? thanks advance ! kris schafer hey , lottery pick , lottery pick , lottery pick ! go phillies ! give beer give death lets pillage ! al bundy , shoe salesman women , ca n't live , pass norm , barfly
admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu \( steve c liu \) subject let 's play name game ! organization homewood academic computing , johns hopkins university , baltimore , md , usa lines 30 distribution world expires 5 9 93 nntp posting host jhunix hcf jhu edu summary never change 's somebody wrote changing team names ! post choices ! 'll start baltimore baseblazers san francisco quakes shawn go rangers ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! baltimore baseblazers \? hell come \? orioles base stealing team except anderson besides would never call anything baltimore orioles \? ballpark \( spelling error \? \) correct baltimore orioles place bet thought bird oriole 's bird named lord baltimore maryland founded 're called baltimore orioles post joke care non 's fan thinks us \? still wonder baseblazers came san diego padres , 's name needs changed used \? father ie priest father ie parents \? admiral steve c liu internet address admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu 1993 world champions baltimore orioles \? series yards 1992 1993 stanley cup champions washington capitals bangles greatest female rock group ever existed ! sig brought frungy ! sport kings ! god man , drilling holes head answer ! dr mccoy
prism cs orst edu \( ryan robin \) subject usa today ftp site article flop distribution world organization cs dept , oregon state university lines 13 nntp posting host prism cs orst edu usa today ftp site could someone please post newsgroup everyone stop posting send articles i'm sure many people like know post net rather mailing hundreds people thought thanks , ryan robin \( prism cs orst edu \)
kubey sgi com \( ken kubey \) subject hbp \? bb \? big cat \? nntp posting host summit wpd sgi com organization silicon graphics , inc , mountain view , ca distribution na lines 60 article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu \( david tate \) writes kubey sgi com \( ken kubey \) said finally , 'd like point many high obp guys draw walks pitchers afraid throw strike , great eye i'm sure used think true , i'm becoming convinced 's way around among players physical ability hit ball real hard , patient ones ones get chance lot let 's break four basic categories hitter , according whether power threats whether walk lot power power patient frank thomas brett butler barry bonds ozzie smith mark mcgwire craig grebeck babe ruth miller ted williams billy hamilton rickey henderson eddie joe morgan mike impatient ernie banks ozzie dave kingman joe carter andres thomas george bell jose lind kirby puckett devon white okay , think agree singles hitters take strike two try get base way power impatient guys excuse power patient guys right thing impatient power guys \( could leave big cat \? \) would guys better slugging percentage took pitches \? perhaps , doubt tell joe carter go take pitches , draw walks , also wo n't hit many frozen bleachers likely hold back pitch used drive patient power guys \? joe morgan small strike zone rickey henderson strike zone size hitler 's heart get walks based small zone look 5 guys thomas , bonds , mcgwire , ruth williams wow ! lot pitchers would rather corners maybe walk guys throw clear strike pitchers would better \( opinion \) coming good fastball strike first pitch , pitchers would rather , go 2 0 3 1 get hurt ken kubey kubey wpd sgi com \( 415 \) 390 3536
rstimets silver ucs indiana edu \( robert stimets \) subject rule book trivia 2 nntp posting host silver ucs indiana edu organization indiana university lines 39 article 93109 maine maine edu ryan robbins io20456 maine maine edu writes manager , 'd argue runner base line since left first base line umps n't budge \( wo n't er admit wrong \) , 'd file protest league rule 7 09 \( k \) states interference batter runner running last half distance home base first base runs outside three foot line , inside \( left \) foul line , umpire 's judgment , interferes field er taking throw first base key word rule runner n't running baseline 's interfering fielding ball throw fielding throw first catcher opted throw ball batter runner 's head , 's inter definition interfering fielder taking throw \? rule book certainly n't clarification , 's possible interpret rule saying catcher alter throw avoid hitting batter runner , interference know , seems way apply rule justly catcher \( pitcher , say rob dibble , example \) throws toward first hits runner running inside baseline , fielder takes chance ejected therefore probably would throw around runner \( scenario \) note american legion league , \( uses mlb rules \) interpret rule say circumstance interference per rule 7 09 rstimets
organization university maine system ryan robbins io20456 maine maine edu subject game length \( braves update ! ! 1993apr20 wvnvms wvnet edu 1993apr20 adobe com netcom com lines 19 umpires required call time player asks time extreme cases , like dust pitcher 's hitter 's eyes , umpire call time batter 20 seconds get situated box receive pitch i'm putting giant clock \( size clock matter \) count 20 seconds pitches minute warm ups think umpires tell hitters go hell step get sign whatever , instruct pitcher pitch goes pitchers umps tell pitch within 20 seconds ball called 's way ryan robbins penobscot hall university maine io20456 maine maine edu
organization university maine system ryan robbins io20456 maine maine edu subject lame , dumb useless question lines 10 depends , judgment umpire batter made attempt avoid getting hit , batter awarded first base balls umpire rules try get way , 's awarded first hit ryan robbins penobscot hall university maine io20456 maine maine edu
organization university maine system ryan robbins io20456 maine maine edu subject speed games \( marginally realistic \) lines 15 pitchers required pitch \( attempt pick \) within 20 seconds receiving ball , 15 pitchers required pitch warm throws within one minute time frame , beginning half inning ends , two minutes reason reliever allowed warm ups simple different mound , different catcher ryan robbins penobscot hall university maine io20456 maine maine edu
mjones watson ibm com \( mike jones \) subject relative value players reply mjones donald aix kingston ibm com disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host fenway aix kingston ibm com organization ibm aix esa development , kingston ny lines 46 kime mongoose torolab ibm com \( edward kim \) writes article world std com jle world std com \( joe leonard \) writes folks jump , let ask net would jays al good pitcher aaa place morris \( given run support \) \? average ml pitcher \? ca n't believe morris' performance playoffs series large positive impact jays performance know 's trendy nowadays dump morris , let 's give credit credit due doubtful blue jays would al east without morris last year , team went 13 15 month august , starters shelled , milwaukee making charge , morris went 5 1 pretty good era \( ca n't remember exactly \) also , let 's underestimate importance 240 innings save bullpen every fifth day n't help us win al east , forget pennent world series guy threw 240 innings 6 run lower era would saved bullpen even say , somebody like frank viola \( 238 innings \) run support high \( 5 98 runs \) 's \( 5 90 runs \) 12 games remember morris winning inordinate number 6 5 8 6 ballgames , credit pitched good needed 6 1 ballgame , put cruise control threw ball let batters get themseleves \( hate expression ! \) inexperienced pitcher would wear trying make perfect pitches keep era morris , veteran pitcher , knows winning thing really matters baseball saving , able reach back little extra \( hate ! \) game line nice tape send baseball tonight attn ray knight espn bristol , ct , chance , taken look boxscores last year determine accuracy account \? seem recall morris getting least 3 4 wins last year jays came back behind decided pull morris end inning mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com dictionaries merely records linguistic history truly donovan
cv hp com \( joe \) subject question era nntp posting host cv hp com organization hewlett packard company , corvallis , oregon usa x newsreader tin version 1 1 9 pl6 lines 38 thomas \( informatik rwth aachen de \) wrote hi , i'm german mlb stuff since almost one year many problems occuring one era statistic pitchers say \? \? era indicates average number earned runs attributed pitcher per nine inning game thus , pitcher pitched 3 innings gave 1 earned run , 9 inning would 3 earned runs , thus era 3 00 compute era simply take number earned runs divided innings pitched multiple result 9 era \( er ip \) 9 earned run run given pitcher attributed fielding error specifically , error occurs represented third , runs scored error considered unearned runs earned runs also runs scored result players left base pitcher exited game examples two outs inning men base error occurs represents third , runs error counted earned runs pitcher issues base balls \( walks \) , leaves game inning completed , responsible people left base runners left base score , score result error , runs attributed pitcher left game hope explains things joe
ragraca vela acs oakland edu \( randy graca \) subject speed games \( marginally realistic \) organization oakland university , rochester , michigan , u lines 71 nntp posting host vela acs oakland edu davidm gvls2 vfl paramax com \( david madden \) writes article ucdavis edu , ez027993 chip ucdavis edu \( gary built like villanueva huckabay \) writes want speed ballgames \? 3 mandate rule permitting n seconds pitches \( current rule lenient \) , enforce fifteen seconds please pardon ignorance well known , current rule \? enough time pitch n't released 15 , call ball , restart clock remember post last year indicating pitch clock tried one minor leagues time back work n't remember said work anyone remember \? jody wip phil saying pitch clock inevitable would pitch clock work throws first \? maybe could limit number throws first pitcher make , award balk exceeds 'd another question would operate pitch clock \? one umpires \? add another one crew \? another pair suggestions 1 remove balk rule runners responsibility stay safe matter pitcher i'm sure like idea think would severely diminish number stolen bases limit availability neat strategic hit run squeeze play \( one personal favorites \) 2 pitcher throws occupied base x time \( x 3 5 \) without successfully picking runner , runner advances base walked ahhh ! suppose read whole article hit key , eh \? obviously , wrote , like idea balk seems give pitcher advantage base walk allows runner challenge pitcher throw base may also increase number wild throws bag , since pitcher knows n't many chances pick runner , may hurry much 'd rather see runs scored result sound hitting sound baseball strategy rather sloppiness could result kind rule , suppose disadvantages idea baseball games take 2 51 nl , shade 3 hours al 's damn long n't like play 3 hour games , much less watch game long butt falls asleep , i'm watching tv , 'll channel surf pitches , catching versions mr ed , leave beaver , wacky nick nite , find surfing know enough time pitch allow batter adjust remember little league , bat stepped batter 's box , even moment , automatically may little harsh majors , seriously , putting limit batters able step , take several dozen practice swings , pound shoes , scratch balls , etc \? maybe forcing stay batter 's box would n't bad idea could save minutes randy
mjones watson ibm com \( mike jones \) subject mlb nba \? reply mjones donald aix kingston ibm com disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host fenway aix kingston ibm com organization ibm aix esa development , kingston ny lines 25 mss netcom com \( mark singer \) writes article 93109 vma cc nd edu rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes article netcom com , mss netcom com \( mark singer \) says 1 \) would owners decrease ticket prices obviously get lots people pay price 're asking \? n't think obvious lots people willing pay price i'm sure someone net land facts trends attendance regarding percentage capacity sold even trends relatively flat , consider happening team team basis attendance 1992 3 time record 1991 people terms , attendance 310 , 000 1991 1992 two franchises , dodgers mets , 1 , 100 , 000 1991 1992 either entirely awful , mlb would set another attendance record 1992 mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com fortran , infantile disorder , nearly 20 years old , hopelessly inadequate whatever computer application mind today clumsy , risky , expensive use , selected writings computing
traven pitt edu \( neal traven \) subject harry caray lines 24 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 dave 'almost cursed jays' kirsch \( kirsch staff tc umn edu \) wrote article oasys dt navy mil odell oasys dt navy mil \( bernard \) writes quite sure reasons , old man certainly ole harry maybe wife \) n't claim know whether 's true , couple different people \( totally unrelated \) said harry duties platonic relations busch 's wife judgement left individual , cuz sure n't claim source case among said \( well , quite said certainly alluded \) bing devine , gm administrator time heard bing speak last year 's sabr national btw , show hands attending year 's sabr national san diego \? 'll neal traven pitt edu 're young , traven vms cis pitt edu immature forever larry andersen
ez027993 dale ucdavis edu \( gary built like villanueva huckabay \) subject ron gant , , hirschbeck organization julio vigil society lines 88 \( dale stephenson \) writes see want cut time spent walking around , gant n't ordered back box sooner , ordered back immediately soon stepped , hirschbeck told get back box , gant n't take lot walks pitches reason bothered call expect concentration n't yet , crucial situation imagine 's best calm possible contributing factors would gant 's bad day plate , bad year plate , braves long scoring drought hirschbeck 's job help gant difficulties gant ca n't gather concentration whatever reason , makes meat batter 's box umpire 's job maintain flow play gant entitled time faculties anyone else , 's pretty stupid go ahead talk walk umpire telling get know umpire going something \( call strike , throw , etc \) gant wrong absolutely think 'd accurate say gant foolish hirschbeck wrong , biased view aside major chip seemed shoulder , problem gant reason want time \( disputed strike call \) disputed strike call ample reason timeout , games would last nine fifteen weeks , jack morris dave pitching disputed strike call sufficient time suck , get back box , never blue 're going change mind , 're going come across pinhead , wo n't help borderline calls never speak umpires n't know personally , glance , react calls result , think get fair share borderline calls plate , rep good eye \( actually , lot negative connotations go rep , including copious questions , party affiliation , sexual preference \) gant n't wasting time game game cruising along , two hours old irrelevant wasting time score 1 0 , 2 outs ninth runner scoring position reason hirschbeck could n't , n't , cut gant little slack \? 1 's job 2 setting precedent cutting slack easily extend 3 hour games \( kind like phantom dp \) discernible constructive reason , hirschbeck disrupted game , caused five minute delay , hurt batter key situation date get \? gant hurt , braves disrupted game biases exposed , i'm sitting defending umpires sf giants , like defending gary , jack , swedish abortion team still wonder terry tossed earlier game believe terry said magic word truly quick ways get tossed ballgame primer , email good ways get tossed game 1 ask ken kaiser got money back system 2 kiss rich garcia lips , say hi , honey , i'm home ! 3 goose eric gregg 4 ask bruce parents children lived 5 get naked \( source greg spira book diamond , told peter gammons 1991 , collier press \) gary huckabay outside \? ! right pipe , kenny ! realize n't great control , dave net c'mon ! gary , styrofoam cup really plate 's foot right throw ball
woods ncar ucar edu \( greg woods \) subject hbp \? bb \? big cat \? organization scientific computing division ncar boulder , co distribution na lines 21 article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu \( david tate \) writes course , claiming \( \) galarraga 's inability defer gratification n't hurting team n't paid walk rbi guy whatever alright , 's enough 've suffered kinds insults \( typical net \) , give break galarraga currently batting 400 guys complaining n't drawing enough walks would please guys , bat 1 000 \? hardly claim hurting team happens pitchers start throwing fewer good pitches starts making lots outs \( someone speculated might happen \) , would agree n't taking enough pitches comment n't paid walk n't mean license swing bad pitches make outs 's along lines 's batting 400 leading league rbi 's bloody difference make n't drawing lot walks \? sheesh greg
\( sean garrison \) subject best first basemen nntp posting host berkeley kstar node net yale edu organization yale univeristy lines 17 article 1993apr20 102857 1 tesla njit edu , drm6640 tesla njit edu wrote mattingly best first baseman history baseball always always ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! actually , keith hernandez best sean behind bag ! vin scully
hawkwind central sun com \( bob netherton \) subject geronimo pena \? organization sun microsystems lines 23 distribution world reply bob netherton dallas central sun com nntp posting host hawkwind central sun com article 1993apr20 1 eagle wesleyan edu , eagle wesleyan edu writes hey 've noticed luis alicea starting 2nd cardinals instead geronimo pena pena hurt , benched poor performance \? anyone know \? quick start , pena stuck rut torre gave alicea start try get pena whatever funk worked past bob h bob netherton missouri pacific sun microsystems mp dallas , tx \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \)
keith oz plymouth edu \( thomas keith \) subject bob knepper right organization plymouth state college plymouth , nh lines 93 article 1993apr19 news stolaf edu acc admin stolaf edu \( \) writes article 1993apr19 035406 news yale edu \( austin jacobs \) writes n't guys think \? mean , c'mon ! heck women even thinking getting baseball oh , n't know maybe love game \? cause many problems look lisa olson remember reporter entered new england patriots locker room \? started crying like little girl ! people deal unfair treatment differently suppose would respect punched people , like stereotypical macho man would done \? n't think women belong man 's sport smart guys flame , know given example football cares \? still applies male sports male sports way wo n't let women involved divine providence sports decision men run men almost liberal thinking women umpires \? ummm insisting pass accredited umpire course , hiring \? jeez ! look pam postema 's woman , everybody face earth thinks 's great 's getting opportunity ump even watched games iq greater roast beef , 'd see nearly good aaa umpires besides , probably worried cracking fingernail foul tip wade boggs' bat jose 's bat listen , mr status quo know pam postema 've seen work , without question , toughest person 've ever met n't give damn , care working game 's find man take care , best job umpire bullshit comments obviously show red neck , grasp society 's nothing wrong red neck , us hicks even listen cultured music , say \? aside , n't try shit guy insulting think comes i'm , milk cows , drive trucks , yes , even like baseball screw anyone n't like oh yeah , learn difference city boy ! \( see \) wanna member bob knepper fan club \( \) either way , many complications nobody said life easy pam aware bad judged people like , ca n't look past anatomy jacobs \( bob knepper fan club member 12 ever organized baseball owner , political system women could vote \? seem feel threatened woody smileys either none
r4938585 joplin biosci arizona edu \( doug roberts \) subject lame , dumb useless question organization university arizona , biotechnology , tucson lines 13 nntp posting host joplin biosci arizona edu article 93109 vma cc nd edu rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes ok , three balls batter pitcher proceeds bean batter walk hit pitch \? bob vesterman 's gotta hbp doug roberts watching chris pitch reminds quote bart simpson come snipers ! \? go expos !
mjones watson ibm com \( mike jones \) subject bonilla reply mjones donald aix kingston ibm com disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host fenway aix kingston ibm com organization ibm aix esa development , kingston ny lines 41 fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu \( eric roush \) writes divisions based race , religion , etc make sick n't nice mlb finally waking existence \? n't shame hiring practices , field , discriminatory long \? \( quick name light hitting black outfielder 1b lasted 10 years bigs bet name two dozen white ones \) otis nixon darnell coles henry manny billy hatcher herm lonnie smith \( light hitting , horror field \) gary redus dion james daryl boston vince coleman \( yeah , 's finally started decent obp \) cecil espy willie wilson gary milt thompson gary varsho ok , admit taking quick browse major league handbook , first 7 8 oh , 's time light hitting black outfielder lou brock look curt flood cesar geronimo cesar cedeno note guys may reached 10 years yet , 've got close likewise list oh , prediction milt cuyler mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com know great thing tv \? something important happens anywhere world , matter time day night , always change channel jim
hawkwind central sun com \( bob netherton \) subject ray lankford question organization sun microsystems lines 31 distribution world reply bob netherton dallas central sun com nntp posting host hawkwind central sun com article 1993apr20 mnemosyne cs du edu , msilverm nyx cs du edu \( mike silverman \) writes anybody know going lankford \? know games slight injury , since \( injury matter \) really struggling plate performance plate may well shoulder injury received ran wall making catch cincy series may also pressing little baserunning , appear lankford dent made bad call sending lankford sunday night game cincy everyone bad time dodger 's catcher ray lankford saw last year \? \? \? good question least n't appear seeing zeile \) h bob netherton missouri pacific sun microsystems mp dallas , tx \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \)
cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu \( oriolefan uiuc \) subject best first basemen organization university illinois urbana lines 26 \( sean garrison \) writes article 1993apr20 102857 1 tesla njit edu , drm6640 tesla njit edu wrote mattingly best first baseman history baseball always always ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! actually , keith hernandez best sean behind bag ! vin scully 'll go mark grace , 2 years , frank thomas chintan amin university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig construction hard hat area
jplee cymbal calpoly edu \( jason lee \) subject braves update ! ! organization california polytechnic state university , san luis obispo lines 24 seq uncwil edu \( kit \) comment made one braves announcers , attributed anonymous player friday night 's game , i'm sorry n't tie , wanted see umpiring sums sure , like ron gant n't completely line hirschbeck , would ejected , order , ron gant , every single last brave came onto field , possibly bobby cox , depending language used since cox brave , suspect would thrown simply cannot show umpire like ron gant disrespectful home plate umpire , dignity game jason lee jplee oboe calpoly edu jlee cash busfac calpoly edu giants e pi 1 0 beautiful equation mathematics magic sad words tongue pen , saddest number might john greenleaf whittier 150
sol uvic ca \( melvin \) subject western insane \? \? nntp posting host sol uvic ca organization university victoria , victoria , b c canada lines 11 article 93108 qucdn queensu ca qucdn queensu ca writes continuously putting universities \? queen 's great makes place got good rep 's long someone would take time look around see dissatisfied people constant misuse bell curve could see queen 's needs major improvements would personally start hiring professors actually teach , people attitude place would okay n't students running around george bell \( ex blue jay \) learn throw curve \?
steph pegasus cs uiuc edu \( dale stephenson \) subject braves update ! ! organization university illinois , dept comp sci , urbana , il lines 49 odin corp sgi com luigi sgi com \( randy palermo \) writes article 13586 news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu \( eric roush \) writes gant turned away , hirschbeck immediately motioned gant step box imo , point time , hirschbeck determined show gant exactly charge game gant n't dawdling n't chance hirschbeck simply exercising power play gant resisted , many us might thought unreasonable request , hirschbeck called pitch point , cox came field , pitch thrown , many braves left dugout cox tossed protecting player pleasantly surprised gant kept cool enough stay game see game saw \? gant , reasonable , argued horrible call hirschbeck , correctly , nothing gant proceeded walk halfway 3rd base , lean bat glare hirschbeck n't subscribe theory showing people , obvious attempt gant hirschbeck left hirschbeck choice take control situation bottom line gant started dangerous power struggle hirschbeck team needed lost events saw 1 \) called strike hirschbeck 2 \) shocked looking gant asks appeal first 3 \) appeal first 4 \) gant steps batters box 5 \) hirschbeck immediately orders gant back bad move 6 \) gant ignores hirschbeck walks bad move 7 \) hirschbeck gant gant silent 8 \) hirschbeck calls pitch 9 \) pitch called strike 10 \) cox argues \( could n't see came field \) 11 \) cox ejected , players everywhere 12 \) play finally resumes gant n't ignored hirschbeck returning made strike call fairly likely although suspect argument might gotten gant tossed altogether hirschbeck let gant step , whole incident probably would avoided dale j stephenson \( steph cs uiuc edu \) baseball fanatic considered good look wise , especially overburdened information j golden kimball
mss netcom com \( mark singer \) subject game length \( braves update ! ! organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 69 article netcom com mzimmers netcom com \( michael zimmers \) writes article 20apr93 vax clarku edu hhenderson vax clarku edu writes nflynn wvnvms wvnet edu writes agree nick 's big deal long games \? want watch baseball , 's much baseball watch yes , baseball includes space plays well plays first , longer game way suggests baseball watch , unless include watching grass grow baseball games batters stepping box , pitchers taking longer pitches excessive trips mound managers pitching coaches six seven years ago enthusiastic fan nfl football last year hardly watched game turned incessant continuity game team scores 2 5 minutes commercials 1 5 minutes commercials three downs 2 minutes commercials ! earlier thread commented larussa 's , believe slow play n't mind cat mouse game rickey first fact , rather enjoy similarly would enjoy battle listach lofton polonia first object games played first , game blowout n't mind pitcher steps mound gather thoughts crucial situation , hitter steps box regain concentration object hitters pitchers take breaks every opportunity game exciting , little delays serve tension builders enhance value experience game delays happen regularity , become , like commercial breaks football understand nfl imposed number rule changes speed games , basically putting onus officiating staff move markers ball spots faster address problem continuity game may sponsors networks , would amazed anything enhance experience fans , 3 hour baseball games bore tears , ones continuity players taking long periods get ready pitch doubt anyone watching braves giants game cared gant stepping doubt anyone watching game would found pause anything opportunity complete attention claimed drama present would totally opposed effort would eliminate aspect baseball hand , wish baseball commissioner powerful enough sit larussa duncan explain actually hurting product baseball dragging games way sure would n't mind little arm twisting beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
fester island com \( mike fester \) subject \( clark jerk \) organization usr local rn organization lines 35 article 1993apr19 cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) writes article 1993apr19 1088 island com fester island com \( mike fester \) writes curiousity , n't pointed thing mr , seems making \( unsubstantiated \) accusation clark \? taking word two , leonard repeatedly said problems , mitchell refused comment mike , prove utter inability read plain english ironic post ability , invariably makes mistake \( english generally written english \) find somebody literate , explain full post saying clark racist saying clark racist saying know , know saying care , consider giants' concern oddly , see contested perhaps , assuredly greater english ability explain , tiny words might grasp meaning , precisely infer said things \? david nieporent understood post replied private e mail , perhaps , take reading lessons mr fisher , place burden proof one makes allegation first place perhaps might explain \? email route , mr fisher , might tried mike
steph pegasus cs uiuc edu \( dale stephenson \) subject hits stolen 1992 summary dcon dops keywords defense center organization university illinois , dept comp sci , urbana , il lines 118 disclaimer fun computerized baseball game , keep track category called stolen hits , defined play made average fielder would make average effort using 1992 defensive averages posted sherri nichols \( thanks sherri ! \) , 've figured defensive stats hits stolen redefined plays juan gonzalez would made ok , realize 's unfair juan 's probably victim pitching staff , fluke shots , monster park factor let 's put way replaced every centerfielder league someone kevin 's 55 4 making ability , many extra hits would go \? try correlate reality little , 've calculated net hits stolen , based number outs made compared league average fielder would make method 've calculated net extra bases \( doubles triples let \) finally , throw formula call defensive contribution , dcon basically , represents defensive contribution player add number ops get dops \( defense plus slug \) , represent player 's total contribution team n't take seriously formula dcon appears end article short version definition terms hs hits stolen extra outs compared kurt stillwell nhs net hits stolen extra outs compared average fielder ndp net double plays extra double plays turned compared avg fielder neb net extra bases extra bases prevented compared avg fielder dcon defensive contribution bases hits prevented , rate dops dcon ops quick dirty measure player 's total contribution national league name hs nhs neb dcon dops nixon , 34 12 15 083 777 grissom , 48 18 12 812 jackson , 46 13 20 060 735 lewis , 25 8 6 596 dykstra , l 25 5 5 013 794 , 10 5 10 001 616 finley , 32 2 2 003 759 lankford , r 39 4 12 007 844 martinez , 21 5 16 660 , 30 4 17 040 846 sanders , r 7 10 4 059 759 butler , b 1 29 5 088 716 johnson , h 3 12 19 118 548 ordered dops 846 844 lankford 812 grissom 794 dykstra 777 nixon 759 finley 759 sanders 735 jackson 730 nl average 716 butler 660 martinez 616 596 lewis 548 johnson american league name hs nhs neb dcon dops lofton , k 57 32 17 220 947 wilson , w 47 26 0 125 787 white , 52 25 28 119 812 felix , j 22 0 32 713 , 43 16 0 047 832 mcrae , h 38 11 1 038 631 yount , r 31 8 3 022 737 kelly , r 13 6 3 025 681 johnson , l 23 5 13 040 641 griffey , k 15 9 12 052 844 puckett , k 13 13 15 801 cuyler , 6 10 6 088 503 gonzalez , j 0 21 15 095 738 order dops 947 lofton 844 griffey 832 812 white 801 puckett 787 wilson 738 gonzalez 737 yount 713 felix 709 al average 681 kelly 641 johnson 631 mcrae 503 cuyler discussion dcon formula \( \( nhs ndp \) pa \) \( \( nhs ndp neb \) ab \) bizzare formula \? basically , 's designed added ops , idea run prevented important run scored extra outs factored obp , extra bases removed factored slg 's used pa ab discussion see post hits stolen first base 1992 dale j stephenson \( steph cs uiuc edu \) baseball fanatic considered good look wise , especially overburdened information j golden kimball
steph pegasus cs uiuc edu \( dale stephenson \) subject hits stolen left field 1992 keywords defense left organization university illinois , dept comp sci , urbana , il lines 105 disclaimer fun computerized baseball game , keep track category called stolen hits , defined play made average fielder would make average effort using 1992 defensive averages posted sherri nichols \( thanks sherri ! \) , 've figured defensive stats hits stolen redefined plays kevin bass would made ok , realize 's unfair kevin 's probably victim pitching staff , fluke shots , monster park factor let 's put way replaced every league someone kevin 's 49 4 making ability , many extra hits would go \? try correlate reality little , 've calculated net hits stolen , based number outs made compared league average fielder would make method 've calculated net extra bases \( doubles triples let \) finally , throw formula call defensive contribution , dcon basically , represents defensive contribution player add number ops get dops \( defense plus slug \) , represent player 's total contribution team n't take seriously formula dcon appears end article short version definition terms hs hits stolen extra outs compared kurt stillwell nhs net hits stolen extra outs compared average fielder ndp net double plays extra double plays turned compared avg fielder neb net extra bases extra bases prevented compared avg fielder dcon defensive contribution bases hits prevented , rate dops dcon ops quick dirty measure player 's total contribution national league name hs nhs neb dcon dops gonzalez , l 63 28 20 192 866 gilkey , b 52 23 14 150 941 clark , g 46 11 11 065 726 alou , 20 3 12 052 835 bonds , b 54 9 7 1 099 may , 21 0 7 020 659 gant , r 31 5 2 715 bass , k 0 24 4 126 600 ordered dops 1 099 bonds 941 gilkey 866 gonzalez 835 alou 726 clark 718 nl average 715 gant 659 may 600 bass american league name hs nhs neb dcon dops raines , 53 22 20 111 896 anderson , b 65 30 8 102 924 henderson , r 43 20 4 101 984 vaughn , g 55 27 3 095 817 , 25 4 8 038 699 hall , 29 6 2 756 mack , 38 6 8 005 866 polonia , l 10 11 10 647 mcreynolds , k 13 8 9 711 , c 9 21 12 105 714 reimer , k 5 18 16 102 671 order dops 984 henderson 924 anderson 896 raines 866 mack 817 vaughn 756 hall 733 al average 714 711 mcreynolds 699 671 reimer 647 polonia discussion dcon formula \( \( nhs ndp \) pa \) \( \( nhs ndp neb \) ab \) bizzare formula \? basically , 's designed added ops , idea run prevented important run scored extra outs factored obp , extra bases removed factored slg 's used pa ab discussion see post hits stolen first base 1992 dale j stephenson \( steph cs uiuc edu \) baseball fanatic considered good look wise , especially overburdened information j golden kimball
franjion spot colorado edu \( john franjione \) subject jack morris nntp posting host spot colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 15 tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) writes valentine \( , i'm going roger maynard complete total dickhead send e mail insist details \) fact , 's complete total dickhead least 2 newsgroups \( one rec sport hockey \) since hockey season almost , 's back dickhead r bb john franjione department chemical engineering university colorado , boulder franjion spot colorado edu
steph pegasus cs uiuc edu \( dale stephenson \) subject yankee thoughts organization university illinois , dept comp sci , urbana , il lines 30 1993apr20 clam com sam steamer clam com \( sam mandelbaum \) writes 2 wade boggs live boston like wade lot , career winding would rather see yanks start develop long term solution \( e hensley , russ davis , velarde \? \) besides , wade n't range shame charlie hayes , huh \? actually , according da information posted sherri , boggs superior defensively 's defensive averages last five years compared average 3b , al 1988 1989 1990 1991 1992 boggs 643 2 659 47 550 54 653 33 634 32 hayes 601 40 622 18 606 14 574 28 hayes defensive standout third , 's done good job put another way , compared average third baseman last year boggs converted 11 grounders outs , turned 2 double plays , prevented 11 doubles hayes let 12 grounders go hits , turned 6 double plays , prevented 4 doubles dale j stephenson \( steph cs uiuc edu \) baseball fanatic considered good look wise , especially overburdened information j golden kimball
franjion spot colorado edu \( john franjione \) subject relative value players nntp posting host spot colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 43 kime mongoose torolab ibm com \( edward kim \) writes doubtful blue jays would al east without morris last year , team went 13 15 month august , starters shelled , milwaukee making charge , morris went 5 1 pretty good era \( ca n't remember exactly \) also , let 's underestimate importance 240 innings save bullpen every fifth day n't help us win al east , forget pennent world series run support high \( 5 98 runs \) 's \( 5 90 runs \) 12 games remember morris winning inordinate number 6 5 8 6 ballgames , credit pitched good needed 6 1 ballgame , put cruise control threw ball let batters get themseleves \( hate expression ! \) inexperienced pitcher would wear trying make perfect pitches keep era morris , veteran pitcher , knows winning thing really matters baseball saving , able reach back little extra \( hate ! \) game line n't buy think things colored large degree notions players involved try exercise xxx pitching today team scores 4 first inning , 3 fourth xxx gives 0 1st 4th fifth , gives 3 runs 6th , gives 2 score 7 5 , xxx 's team still top contend xxx jack morris , assessment would veteran pitches well win xxx mike , assessment would inexperienced rookie n't know pitch needs seasoning send aaa spice rack john franjione department chemical engineering university colorado , boulder franjion spot colorado edu
tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) subject jack morris organization cornell univ cs dept , ithaca ny 14853 lines 31 article 1993apr19 sni ca dave sni ca \( dave till \) writes n't think obvious time viola better morris viola comparable k ip ratios 1991 viola coming injury , whereas morris healthy time n't really want sox sign either little worried viola 's elbow surely remember shout relief , week rumors morris coming red sox , ended viola instead i'm even happier viola seems nicely also , morris willing sign two years jays n't like sign pitchers long term contracts , think sensible policy long viola sign three years \? generally agree policy avoiding long term contracts pitchers think enforce rather strictly days premier pitchers sign three four year deals leaves jays morris stewart jays want compete top free agent pitchers , accept greater risks idea option year deal morris \? automatic activation clauses \? amount \? f cheers , valentine
silver ucs indiana edu \( rob lawrence \) subject harry caray nntp posting host silver ucs indiana edu organization indiana university lines 39 article 9500 blue cis pitt edu traven pitt edu \( neal traven \) writes dave 'almost cursed jays' kirsch \( kirsch staff tc umn edu \) wrote article oasys dt navy mil odell oasys dt navy mil \( bernard newsgroups rec sport baseball \) writes quite sure reasons , old man certainly ole harry maybe wife \) n't claim know whether 's true , couple different people \( totally unrelated \) said harry duties platonic relations busch 's wife judgement left individual , cuz sure n't claim source case among said \( well , quite said certainly alluded \) bing devine , gm administrator time heard bing speak last year 's sabr national btw , show hands attending year 's sabr national san diego \? 'll neal traven pitt edu 're young , traven vms cis pitt edu immature forever larry andersen harry talks incident autobiography holy cow unfortunately , clarify since \( 1 \) read book couple years ago \( 2 \) book anyway , pretty interesting book harry cubs fan rob
hagins avlin8 us dg com \( jody hagins \) subject bitmaps team logos reply hagins avlin8 us dg com organization data general corporation , , md lines 13 heard posted somewhere , find please e mail location thanks , jody jody hagins hagins avlin8 us dg com data general corporation , , md rock , river , tree ,
leo bsuvc bsu edu subject two sport star trivia ! organization ball state university , muncie , univ computing svc 's lines 20 's two sport star trivia questions 'll admit 're difficult , bit challenging nevertheless mail answers please post 1 pitcher played harlem \? 2 major briefly tried professional golf 1978 \? 3 sanders \( professionally \) career triples \? 4 player pro hockey baseball \? , name years played two sport star tidbits , feel free include mike
mit edu \( ed \) subject speed games \( marginally realistic \) reply davidm gvls2 vfl paramax com 's message 20 apr 93 18 12 45 gmt organization home organization lines 28 article 1993apr20 vfl paramax com davidm gvls2 vfl paramax com \( david madden \) writes another pair suggestions 1 remove balk rule runners responsibility stay safe matter pitcher 2 pitcher throws occupied base x time \( x 3 5 \) without successfully picking runner , runner advances base walked last suggestion probably increase number stolen bases considerably suppose pitcher uses \( n 1 \) n pick attempts runner probably stretch lead base , given extra pressure pitcher get right time would suggestion apply pick attempts per pitch , per batter , per base runner \( base \) \? dr edward j mit lincoln laboratory 's got going , rm j , po box 73 getting 's good lexington , harry chapin , greyhound \( 617 \) 981
nlu xenon stanford edu \( nelson lu \) subject hbp \? bb \? big cat \? organization computer science department , stanford university distribution na lines 32 article 1993apr20 ncar ucar edu woods ncar ucar edu \( greg woods \) writes alright , 's enough 've suffered kinds insults \( typical net \) , give break galarraga currently batting 400 guys complaining n't drawing enough walks would please guys , bat 1 000 \? hardly claim hurting team fine , willing bet bat 400 rest way \? point hurt rockies far 's hurt , eventually much hurt expos cardinals past couple seasons happens pitchers start throwing fewer good pitches starts making lots outs \( someone speculated might happen \) , would agree n't taking enough pitches comment happened past 3 seasons \? n't paid walk n't mean license swing bad pitches make outs 's along lines 's batting 400 leading league rbi 's bloody difference make n't drawing lot walks \? sheesh 'll see come september \( outstanding bet someone galarraga 's obp less 300 june 1 \) go california angels ! nelson lu \( claudius leland stanford edu \)
r4938585 joplin biosci arizona edu \( doug roberts \) subject neon deon sanders \( braves giants \) organization university arizona , biotechnology , tucson lines 33 nntp posting host joplin biosci arizona edu article 1993apr20 bnlux1 bnl gov bnlux1 bnl gov \( kenton yee \) writes gatech edu cimmeria gatech edu \( thomas miller \) writes anyone else think weekend 's four game series really strange one \? yup , wondering whole time braves talented outfielder , neon deon , starting \? 's whoa n't forgetting couple guys named gant justice \? guy hit 300 , 20 hrs , lead , steal 40 lead 'll probably steal 40 might hit 300 'll never hit 20 homers think went 2 4 one bases start guys like nixon bream ahead ! ca n't really see advantage nixon deon except nixon better defensive outfielder said right anyone else like deon \? think 's hype 300 season last year good , i'm convinced reminds \( sorry \) year 1987 \( \? \) tim wallach hit 30 homers 127 rbi never even came close happening course , maybe prefer guys go business n't play attention ho doug roberts larry walker god delino deshields thinks \( john bratt , 're , send email system ca n't find site ! \)
essex ecn uoknor edu \( billy aaron beard \) subject torre worst manager \? distribution usa nntp posting host essex ecn uoknor edu organization engineering computer network , university oklahoma , norman , ok , usa lines 24 gt0523e prism gatech edu \( michael andre mule \) writes article 93095 hydra gatech edu gt7469a prism gatech edu \( brian r landmann \) writes e , later , ninth inning bases loaded two outs puts lankford , 300 hitter power pinch runner uses luis alicea , 250 hitter power pinch hitter thinking memory serves well , alicea hit , damn near tied game torre obviously knows players better mention lankford hurt two nights running outfield wall reason available pinch anything ribs problem could run hit torre white rat give credit , pretty darn good manager exception felix fiasco , i'm sure 's bil cardinals mailing list \? \? \? \? \? \? \? anyone \? \? \? \? \? \? anyone \? \? \? \? \? \? \? please \? \?
noel chaos cs brandeis edu \( noel \) subject usa mcweekly stats organization brandeis university lines 61 rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes discussion whether elias money grubbing deleted funny , seems stats major league minor league , nothing collections statistics , authored bill james stats inc \( howe , minor league handbook \) sure 1993 bill james player ratings book qualifies book statistics , elias analyst statistics book analyst contains stats , sure , also contains dialogue finally , point word statistics money grubbing n't see anyone looked bill james player ratings book cannot consider money grubbing bob vesterman thoughts facts , 1 \) bill james partial owner stats , inc however almost nothing day day operations company , although significant input design books bear name \( handbook , scoreboard \) best knowledge , things bill actually writes stats predictions section handbook , bill james fantasy baseball rulebook 2 \) debate elias goes way back bill early stuff hampered fact elias would give access stats price project , later , stats founded fill void call stats , ask report anything database , provide price , course could log online system look data attempted pry numbers elias past \( football , baseball \) , n't stats eyes , high ground comes making information available 3 \) said , i'm pretty bill 's book year , given mostly response publishers desire book come sooner april hope makes things little bit clearer \( bias alert former part time employee stats \) noel noel chaos cs brandeis edu
noel chaos cs brandeis edu \( noel \) subject box score woes organization brandeis university lines 80 scott asd com \( scott barman \) writes article 1993apr15 195452 scott skidmore edu jrogoff scott skidmore edu \( jay rogoff \) writes anybody figure box score abbreviations make absolutely sense \? \( least local rag finds way door \) must stared mets' box good 30 seconds morning wondering hell would n't make sense use \? 've seen also blame associated press official scorer balances official score card , copy give several people one person ap whose job type \( using template laptop \) transmit ap offices new york \( rockefeller center \) via telephone box scores checked ap 's news delivery services corrections , issued later person sitting front laptop shea \( whereever \) whose fault note ap puts boxscores three different formats one see newspapers first one totally true past year two , ap getting box scores stats , inc ap representative press box actually stats reporter \( 25 dollars game , free parking anybody \) box downloaded stats chicago , quick error checking done , stats sends ap i'm sure come hear n't think stats 's may space correction ap sports editor day i'm mentioning stats reporters , always looking new people especially live cleveland pittsburgh , 're road getting press box may real short info , call stats \( 708 \) 676 , ask reporter network 's fun way get paid watching baseball games end public service announcement last week denver maybe ap person denver \( remember , started mlb \) check tomorrow 's paper \( 4 21 \) see person shea thing noel noel chaos cs brandeis edu
wyllie helios physics utoronto ca \( andrew wyllie \) subject jays' darrin jackson nightmare ! organization university toronto physics astronomy lines 43 article ra nrl navy mil klinker itd nrl navy mil \( eric klinker \) writes article 93110 slacvm slac stanford edu thomas slacvm slac stanford edu writes article bde ra nrl navy mil , klinker itd nrl navy mil \( eric klinker \) says dj popular player san diego , derek bell faring well clubhouse toronto , matter bad looks still think steal jays perspective team chemistry laugh , laugh , equally publicly , jays finish third due severe depletion talent jays finish third depletion pitching staff , derek bell traded darrin could n't agree jays lot power line far pitching biggest problem maybe get acker back \? \) anyway point post , missed , derek bell traded basically doghouse cito rest team one incident sticks mind derek bell ran back jays division players back clubhouse bell ran around field arms air , waving big towel head looked like big jerk , especially consider contribute much team whole season next day , winfield carter somehow got keys bell 's jeep brought game started stadium announcer said going draw later game bell 's jeep bell really n't think bell popular think jackson might trying little hard right 's known great outfielder , 's blue jay booting balls playing generally awful andrew andrew wyllie wyllie physics utoronto ca university toronto
doctor8 jhuvms hcf jhu edu \( jason abner miller \) subject could look organization johns hopkins university hcf lines 22 distribution na nntp posting host jhuvms hcf jhu edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article 1993apr21 alchemy chem utoronto ca , mark b writes yes , could look prefer post question net read somewhere long forgotten article used major league umps originally used help deaf ball player name dummy urban myth \? true \? gots ta know dummy , late 19th century baseball player , deaf order able find whether pitch ball strike , umpires developed hand signals also helped relieve stress vocal cords , n't shout strike ! ! ! ball ! ! ! ! ! 350 times game heard one worthwhile baseball book john thorn ever authored , century baseball lore \) mark b alchemy chem utoronto ca jason miller doctor guy frank tanana 1 win \? ! \? ! \? !
stwombly cs ulowell edu \( steve twombly \) subject fenway organization umass lowell computer science lines 7 hi anybody know ticket info fenway \? less 40 people \( 617 \) 267 1700 40 \( 617 \) 262 1915 steve
ind25 blurt oswego edu subject ugliest stance organization suny college oswego , oswego , ny lines 4 n't know think phil plantier ugliest stance looks like 's sitting toilet brian rosen
organization penn state university john johnson psuvm psu edu subject best homeruns 1993apr19 hpcvaac cv hp com lines 3 mike schmidt 's , also 9th inning game winner john
organization penn state university john johnson psuvm psu edu subject phils , nl east weak kingoz camelot lines 17 article kingoz camelot , kingoz camelot bradley edu \( orin roth \) says may posting way early eating words mid season c'mon , phillies n't proved anything yet atlanta similar phils 2 years ago sucked started phillies finished third 2 years ago braves really record 6 3 imagine phils record batting 188 \? atlanta 's hitting improve dramatically opponents n't hit much better eat words , forgive us true fans philly lot \) john
kubey sgi com \( ken kubey \) subject hbp \? bb \? big cat \? nntp posting host summit wpd sgi com organization silicon graphics , inc , mountain view , ca distribution na lines 10 article mjones fenway mjones donald aix kingston ibm com writes would help obp higher batting average yes , april 12 usa today lists le grand 422 batting average 413 obp okay , 'll bite obp lower batting average \? sac flies something \? ken kubey kubey wpd sgi com \( 415 \) 390 3536
organization washington university , st louis mark wuvmd wustl edu netnews wuvmd subject ray lankford question lines 19 article 1993apr20 mnemosyne cs du edu , msilverm nyx cs du edu \( mike silverman \) says anybody know going lankford \? know games slight injury , since \( injury matter \) really struggling plate ray lankford saw last year \? \? \? patient sore shoulder crashing wall cards give time needs come around full time centerfielder however steal often year hitting clean mark
punjabi leland stanford edu \( sanjeev punjabi \) subject barry bonds batting 4th \? organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa lines 7 heading indicates , impossible fathom barry batting 4th giants behind clark barry awesome consistent hitter definitely best national league imho , williams , streaky hitter \( really clutch hitter \) batting 4th ahead bonds simply injustice giants fans giants
leo bsuvc bsu edu subject america 's team \? organization ball state university , muncie , univ computing svc 's lines 52 article kingoz camelot , kingoz camelot bradley edu \( orin roth \) writes well , officially 's braves least started winning still , officially \? , \? receive label \? , without doubt , america 's team cubs \? well , guess america loves underdogs every year , matter talent predictions , never \( close never possible \) win anything years , losing mounted , america fallen love perennial losers cubs fans chicago teams worldwide cubs fans worldwide teams division combined aura excitement surrounds cubs beginning season like one else \( including ws champs \) must eternal hope year 've got talent 're good start 've got pitching \( hitting , whatever strong point time \) 's cubs eventually win ws \? god knows since 's long , could come time , could another 85 years finally win , start winning consistently , cubs remain america 's underdogs cubs team orin bradley u i'm really jester disguise ! absolutely correct braves fans nothing bunch correct wrong , 4 5 years ago couldnt give away ticket see braves play would bet next paycheck 80 called braves fans living outside georgia present time name 3 players 1988 season hand , ask cubs fan living anywhere united states name 3 players given year 80 probably could granted , fact team wins brings people ball park , mean title america 's team reason considered america 's team ted turner little tv station broadcasts across nation 'll consider toronto america 's team braves go reds ! chris leo bsuvc bsu edu want life woman love , woman care kids hopefully two never meet
cuz chaos cs brandeis edu \( cousin \) subject jack morris organization brandeis university lines 19 aardvark cygnus la locus com \( warren usui \) writes , alfredo griffin better barry larkin rings 're judging , n't see point , since barry one \( 1990 \) yes alfredo least two ! ! \( 1988 dodgers 1992 blue jays \) , world series rings different teams babe ruth lou gehrig combined ! ! \( know yankee dynasty due third \? \) warren , agree premise babe two teams 's right , part red sox dynasty everyone knows yankee would n't happened without thier famous bullpen catcher whose name escapes moment cuz
rstimets silver ucs indiana edu \( robert stimets \) subject belcher terrific tomlin reds win 5 0 4 20 nntp posting host silver ucs indiana edu organization indiana university lines 154 tim belcher pitched dandy three hit shut tonight cincinnati second straight 5 0 pittsburgh lefty randy tomlin hit early often heavily right unbalanced reds line , managed recently rare power bats belcher \( 1 1 \) solid throughout fact seemed get stronger game progressed early several three ball counts , even far later allowed one base balls striking nine post game interview said change working say nine strikeouts apparently breaking balls tomlin \( 0 1 \) , hand trouble early , giving second pitch double lead batter roberts bobby kelly followed single barry larkin scored roberts sharp single right big guys \( mitchell , sabo , milligan \) unable get anything fact struck kelly managed score anyway due double steal tomlin wild pitch fact , appeared tomlin going recover nicely shaky start retired 9 next 11 batters get fourth behind 2 0 randy milligan , though , different ideas line shot poorly played orlando merced turned triple milligan would later score reggie sacrifice fly , giving 3 0 lead 4 fifth inning spelled loss tomlin roberts led second double game , one batter later larkin smacked double left field line , chasing tomlin barry later would score final run tom prince 's two base passed ball pirates managed threat day bottom half fifth merced kevin young hit back back singles \( second bunt variety \) , carlos garcia struck , prince fit foul fly , pinch hitter lonnie smith k 'd end pittsburgh hope pittsburgh pitchers backed tomlin well , though relievers minor , moeller \( sp \? \) , nagel gave two hits four plus innings work barry larkin left game seventh grounder \( mis \) played bruised right thumb taken hospital x rays let 's hope 's ok cincinnati 4 9 , still worst record majors , two wins may looking moving cellar ! pittsburgh 7 6 reds fans would like receive report semi daily basis \( often write \) , send e mail address 'll put list someone reds mailing list , please forward 'll put everyone list ! ! cincinnati reds ab r h k bb lo roberts 2b 4 2 2 1 0 1 kelly cf 4 1 1 0 0 0 larkin ss 3 1 3 0 0 0 branson ss 0 0 0 0 0 0 mitchell lf 4 0 1 1 0 0 hernandez lf 0 0 0 0 0 0 sabo 3b 4 0 0 1 0 1 milligan 1b 4 1 1 2 0 1 sanders rf 3 0 0 2 0 0 oliver c 4 0 2 2 0 0 belcher p 4 0 0 2 0 1 totals 34 5 10 11 0 4 3b milligan \( tomlin , leading fourth , scored \) 2b roberts \( tomlin , leading first , scored \) roberts \( tomlin , leading fifth , scored \) larkin \( tomlin , fifth , one , runner second , rbi , scored \) sf sanders rbi larkin 2 , sanders sb kelly , larkin gdp sabo pittsburgh pirates ab r h k bb lo martin lf 4 0 0 0 0 1 bell ss 4 0 0 1 0 0 van slyke cf 4 0 0 0 0 0 king 3b 3 0 0 2 1 0 merced rf 3 0 1 1 0 0 young 1b 2 0 1 1 0 0 garcia 2b 3 0 0 2 0 1 prince c 3 0 1 0 0 0 tomlin p 1 0 0 0 0 0 minor p 0 0 0 0 0 0 smith ph 1 0 0 1 0 2 moeller p 0 0 0 0 0 0 ph 1 0 0 1 0 0 nagel p 0 0 0 0 0 0 29 0 3 9 1 4 gdp merced cincinnati 2 0 0 1 2 0 0 0 0 5 11 1 pittsburgh 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 3 0 pitching ip r er h k bb cincinnati belcher \( w 1 1 \) 9 0 0 3 9 1 cg \( 1 \) , \( 1 \) line day ! ! ! e larkin pittsburgh tomlin \( l 0 1 \) 4 1 3 5 5 9 6 0 minor 2 3 0 0 1 0 0 moeller 2 0 0 0 3 0 nagel 1 0 0 1 2 0 wp tomlin pb prince umps quick crawford att 9 , 077 2 14 coming reds play two , go chicago weekend series weather n't look good , though n't surprised one games get rained tomorrow , 7 35 , jose vs steve cook , smiley vs wakefield thursday rstimets
med yale edu \( michael locker \) subject jewish broadcasters \( jewish baseball players \? \) reply kahn troi cc rochester edu 's message 20 apr 93 16 40 53 gmt nntp posting host med yale edu organization yale university x news reader vms news 1 20 lines 8 1993apr20 galileo cc rochester edu kahn troi cc rochester edu writes let 's forget al michaels , believe miracles \? fame jim course , ca n't forget mel allen michael
csm jhunix hcf jhu edu \( brian c \) subject best homeruns organization homewood academic computing , johns hopkins university , baltimore , md , usa lines 7 nntp posting host jhunix hcf jhu edu brooks robinson 's last homerun ever \? 268 came 4 19 77 memorial stadium one two bottom 10th inning larry due , brooks pinch hit 3 2 pitch dave left field bleachers 6 5 win brian
franjion spot colorado edu \( john franjione \) subject game length \( braves update ! ! nntp posting host spot colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 17 article 20apr93 vax clarku edu hhenderson vax clarku edu writes agree nick 's big deal long games \? want watch baseball , 's much baseball watch yes , baseball includes space plays well plays n't really mind length games either want speed games sensible ways , 's fine however , object assertion baseball people \( whitey herzog , buck 've heard say \) games long hitters taking many pitches , strike zone needs expanded john franjione department chemical engineering university colorado , boulder franjion spot colorado edu
organization university maine system wayne barber barber maine maine edu subject braves update ! ! 13586 news duke edu odin corp sgi com steph pegasus cs uiuc edu lines 56 article steph pegasus cs uiuc edu , steph pegasus cs uiuc edu \( dale stephenson \) says events saw 1 \) called strike hirschbeck 2 \) shocked looking gant asks appeal first 3 \) appeal first 4 \) gant steps batters box 5 \) hirschbeck immediately orders gant back bad move even noticed gant 's one batter attempting regain concentration gant wonder gant said something ump \? 6 \) gant ignores hirschbeck walks bad move actually , small hand wave gant say 'do n't bother me' gant may said something , 7 \) hirschbeck gant gant silent 8 \) hirschbeck calls pitch 9 \) pitch called strike 10 \) cox argues \( could n't see came field \) cox already halfway ump strike called 11 \) cox ejected , players everywhere 12 \) play finally resumes gant n't ignored hirschbeck returning made strike call fairly likely although suspect argument might gotten gant tossed altogether hirschbeck let gant step , whole incident probably would avoided impression gant ' making protest lack appeal first pointed earlier , appeal first strike understand gant feeling little pressure two , risp , 1 0 game , ninth inning let get ump also gant , doubt would gone long hirschbeck let moment compose telling come bat imho , umpires flexible hirschbeck showed gant disturbed point pretty likely would get hit bad finish pretty good game dale j stephenson \( steph cs uiuc edu \) baseball fanatic considered good look wise , especially overburdened information j golden kimball wayne barber data support specialist university maine system internet barber maine maine edu
franjion spot colorado edu \( john franjione \) subject barry bonds batting 4th \? nntp posting host spot colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 29 st1ge elroy uh edu \( edward hui \) writes article 1993apr21 032427 22464 leland stanford edu , punjabi leland stanford edu \( sanjeev punjabi \) writes heading indicates , impossible fathom barry batting 4th giants behind clark barry awesome consistent hitter definitely best national league imho , williams , streaky hitter \( really clutch hitter \) batting 4th ahead bonds simply injustice giants fans giants 2 simple reasons \( 2 \) bonds batting behind williams means matt get good pitches hit important since struggles much breaking balls opposing pitchers n't want walk williams get bonds n't understand matt williams demonstrated throughout career wait good pitches hit wo n't take walks 'd rather swing i'm opposing pitcher , would fastball williams hit well , know williams swing \( miss , least hit well \) low away curve \? john franjione department chemical engineering university colorado , boulder franjion spot colorado edu
cc bellcore com \( michael \( \) \) subject best first basemen organization bellcore , livingston , nj lines 19 article 1993apr20 102857 1 tesla njit edu , drm6640 tesla njit edu says mattingly best first baseman history baseball always always ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! always \? \? \? \? \? \? even even conceived \? 's neat trick always \? \? \? \? \? \? leave lot room error n't hopefully missed earlier post regard otherwise well leave individual fill say gehrig ! \( shortened capitalized ease reader \) mike
berkeley edu \( sean cunningham \) subject candlestick nntp posting host berkeley edu organization university california , berkeley lines 24 hey folks , saw giants play ball 'stick saturday , april 17 game broke scoreless tie ninth two , two run homer right win \( n't game fans threw give away onto field response homer bad , huh \? \) well , 'stick still cold saturday game ended 5 45pm , cold ca n't imagine night games april 'stick wind kicked little , , got idea games , 's pile hot dog wrappers cups trash field lot time propose kid 's clean corps composed mainly 10 12 year old kids would love nothing better run field fifth inning \( guy infield \) grab trash might , age probably would given anything field ballplayers everybody wins ! think \? sean
bohnert leland stanford edu \( matthew bohnert \) subject barry bonds batting 4th \? organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa lines 23 consistent hitter definitely best national league imho , williams , streaky hitter \( really clutch hitter \) batting 4th ahead bonds simply injustice giants fans giants \( 2 \) bonds batting behind williams means matt get good pitches hit important since struggles much breaking balls opposing pitchers n't want walk williams get bonds 're definitely correct williams absolutely clark bonds must , mean must , get fastballs hit otherwise becomes little disguise would suggest perhaps batting bonds , williams , clark 3 4 5 , reason feel potential basestealing abilities wasted 's stuck behind two slow runners think chance getting 20 30 extra stolen bases bonds 3 spot would offset drop run production clark 5 spot matt
brian meaddata com \( brian curran \) subject could look organization mead data central , dayton oh lines 19 distribution world nntp posting host taurus meaddata com article 1993apr21 alchemy chem utoronto ca , mark b writes yes , could look prefer post question net read somewhere long forgotten article used major league umps originally used help deaf ball player name dummy urban myth \? true \? gots ta know true william dummy baseball 's first deaf player played bigs 1888 1903 several teams , including white sox reds brian curran mead data central brian meaddata com 've never coach life find one beat , 'll listen lee , professional
spira panix com \( greg sarcasm way life spira \) subject relative value players organization boo ! lines 76 kime mongoose torolab ibm com kime mongoose torolab ibm com \( edward kim \) writes article world std com jle world std com \( joe leonard \) writes folks jump , let ask net would jays al good pitcher aaa place morris \( given run support \) \? average ml pitcher \? ca n't believe morris' performance playoffs series large positive impact jays performance know 's trendy nowadays dump morris , let 's give credit credit due doubtful blue jays would al east without morris well , say , without morris , mention assumed replacement alternative morris letting cito gaston soft toss ball opposition every 5 days , course blue jays would n't without morris alternative replacement level , think would 've close , yes , morris might 've made difference alternative frank viola , blue jays probably would easily viola last year , team went 13 15 month august , starters shelled , milwaukee making charge , morris went 5 1 pretty good era \( ca n't remember exactly \) yes make argument presence prevented team collapsing august also , let 's underestimate importance 240 innings save bullpen every fifth day n't help us win al east , forget pennent world series innings probably helpful run support high \( 5 98 runs \) 's \( 5 90 runs \) 12 games remember morris winning inordinate number 6 5 8 6 ballgames , credit pitched good needed 6 1 ballgame , put cruise control threw ball let batters get themseleves \( hate expression ! \) inexperienced pitcher would wear trying make perfect pitches keep era morris , veteran pitcher , knows winning thing really matters baseball saving , able reach back little extra \( hate ! \) game line well , think complete bs happened time morris fell behind , team came back rescued mostly , 's lousy 1st inning pitcher , much better rest way team climb 4 0 , 5 0 holes consistently win 6 5 morris' credit 's team 's credit furthermore , morris exceed w l percentage would projected runs allowed run support , n't done previous years fact , w l record 1991 lot worse projects run support runs allowed think came ability 1992 look 2 postseason games pitched typical morris games morris gets behind team 's responsible rescue games , team n't rescue enough jack morris pitched well much season 2 games offense n't earn victory btw , think put bullpen would embarrassing veteran pitcher cito would never , era 17 , much embarrassed \? morris one guys ca n't start anymore 's bad first inning pitcher serve bullpen greg
csm jhunix hcf jhu edu \( brian c \) subject jack morris organization homewood academic computing , johns hopkins university , baltimore , md , usa lines 17 nntp posting host jhunix hcf jhu edu anyone happen see peter gammons espn last night \? addressed exact issue , dismissed rather quickly according gammons , advanced scouts reporting morris' fastball slider still zip problems year due sudden inability keep ball hidden release guzman gone similar stretches cleared succinctly little work pitching coach gammons looks see morris back top form within month , hand , still doubts morris' era last year rather high pitcher 20 games showing series surprising although i'm convinced 's washed , doubts whether ever regain form twins '91 brian
hhenderson vax clarku edu subject game length \( braves update ! ! organization clark university lines 35 mzimmers netcom com \( michael zimmers \) writes first , longer game way suggests baseball watch , unless include watching grass grow baseball definitely 's n't like going see games played artificial turf \) games batters stepping box , pitchers taking longer pitches excessive trips mound managers pitching coaches 's true gaps plays interesting , true n't become extra long well , idea interesting differs mine think batting practice interesting , example , make special effort get game early order see think delaying tactics batters , pitchers , catchers , managers interesting 're attempts gain advantage control flow timing game course , umpires , , intervene tactics get hand ryan robbins pointed , rules cover one fascinating things baseball , think , open regard time never know game going zip right less two hours , 's going go four morning likewise , games action packed , games slow lazy 's fine folks want constant action watch games tv channel surf short attention spans heather hhenderson vax clarku edu
hhenderson vax clarku edu subject bob vesterman 's plan generate fan interest organization clark university lines 14 rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes let 's face , sex violence things sell america 's implement game bob , sex already baseball ! think uniforms get tighter \? \? todd 's could , suppose seems favor carlton fisk pants style unfortunate todd , word wise ya got , flaunt ! heather hhenderson vax clarku edu
lonestar utsa edu \( joseph \) subject yanks royals box score nntp posting host lonestar utsa edu organization university texas san antonio distribution usa lines 8 need box score april 15 game believe score 5 4 anyone provide would appreciate joseph jr u long distance , mkt rep 523 \( 210 \) 533 san pedro , suite 300 san antonio , tx san antonio , tx lonestar utsa edu \( 800 \) 460 ext 395
patrick gallagher andrew cmu edu subject ray lankford question organization freshman , mathematics , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 13 nntp posting host po3 andrew cmu edu reply 1993apr20 mnemosyne cs du edu anybody know going lankford \? know games slight injury , since \( injury matter \) really struggling plate ray lankford saw last year \? \? \? beg differ , couple 3 hit games came back get caught stealing though also missed sunday 's game play tonight \? , i'm worried 's team patrick
c robert magnus acs ohio state edu subject cub fever organization ohio state university x mailer elm version 2 3 lines 13 kingoz camelot bradley edu \( orin roth \) writes cub fever hitting i'm beginning think chance year \( heck thinking \? \) sorry moment incompetence 'll ok really orin bradley u sure \? maybe chronic syndrome persists , may banish cub crazy north chicago \) \) \) rob
atlantis csos orst edu \( ken \) subject pecota \( braves \) article jus distribution na organization cs dept oregon state university , corvallis , oregon lines 9 nntp posting host atlantis csos orst edu could someone send pecota 's stats last years , something give sort feel kind player \? mind handle , bothers pecota braves , pretty meaningful ca n't even come first name , think ken first n't succeed , try blacksburg , va quit use damn fool atlantis csos orst edu w c fields
iscsvax uni edu subject best first basemen organization university northern iowa lines 12 article 1993apr20 102857 1 tesla njit edu , drm6640 tesla njit edu writes mattingly best first baseman history baseball always always ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! kind happy grass smoking \? maybe share first , lou gehrig greatest first baseman ever foxx clearly next best first baseman ever could greatest first baseman yankees modern era put best history baseball quite humorous , silly , totally line tony
punjabi leland stanford edu \( sanjeev punjabi \) subject barry bonds batting 4th \? organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa lines 37 article menudo uh edu st1ge elroy uh edu writes article 1993apr21 032427 22464 leland stanford edu , punjabi leland stanford edu \( sanjeev punjabi \) writes heading indicates , impossible fathom barry batting 4th giants behind clark barry awesome consistent hitter definitely best national league imho , williams , streaky hitter \( really clutch hitter \) batting 4th ahead bonds simply injustice giants fans giants 2 simple reasons \( 1 \) batting williams ahead bonds create left \( clark \) , right \( williams \) , left \( bonds \) situation middle batting order makes tougher opposing manager change pitchers \( 2 \) bonds batting behind williams means matt get good pitches hit important since struggles much breaking balls opposing pitchers n't want walk williams get bonds reasons good ones joe morgan thinks bonds clark williams 3 4 5 hitters believes clark bonds williams fine , definitely opinion bonds hit ahead williams inclined agree first reason valid bonds hit lefties righties well hits lefties righties better giant williams still getting breaking balls although much last season , bottom line bonds far disciplined productive hitter williams , prefer take chances bonds driving 1 , 2 3 hitters \( expected high \) williams williams would get fastballs bonds first second base open threat bonds stealing
punjabi leland stanford edu \( sanjeev punjabi \) subject barry bonds batting 4th \? organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa lines 30 article 1993apr21 leland stanford edu bohnert leland stanford edu \( matthew bohnert \) writes consistent hitter definitely best national league imho , williams , streaky hitter \( really clutch hitter \) batting 4th ahead bonds simply injustice giants fans giants \( 2 \) bonds batting behind williams means matt get good pitches hit important since struggles much breaking balls opposing pitchers n't want walk williams get bonds 're definitely correct williams absolutely clark bonds must , mean must , get fastballs hit otherwise becomes little disguise would suggest perhaps batting bonds , williams , clark 3 4 5 , reason feel potential basestealing abilities wasted 's stuck behind two slow runners think chance getting 20 30 extra stolen bases bonds 3 spot would offset drop run production clark 5 spot matt williams like hitting cleanup ! ! secondly , bonds clark \( order \) lot productive runners scoring position matt streaky , free williams sanjeev
tac world std com \( chan \) subject ugliest swing organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 5 ugliest swing sure think stance franco ranger wonder bat comes around time hit ball looks bad hey get job done tac
pb6755 csc albany edu \( brown philip h \) subject jewish ballplayers organization state university new york albany lines 16 reply informix com 's message 19 apr 93 22 39 30 gmt list jewish ballplayers includes levi samuel \( son jacob margaret \) although sounds like jewish name , 's surviving relatives say n't jewish , according nineteenth century stars , published sabr 1989 incidentally , long levi \( 6 foot 1 \) batted 492 first season national association , first pro league needless say , n't topped yet \( course , na considered major league \) five seasons , hit 368 na also played first three seasons nl , hitting 329 phil brown aka pb6755 csc albany edu
steph pegasus cs uiuc edu \( dale stephenson \) subject america 's team \? organization university illinois , dept comp sci , urbana , il lines 43 1993apr20 bsu ucs leo bsuvc bsu edu writes absolutely correct braves fans nothing bunch correct wrong , 4 5 years ago couldnt give away ticket see braves play would bet next paycheck 80 called braves fans living outside georgia present time name 3 players 1988 season hand , ask cubs fan living anywhere united states name 3 players given year 80 probably could could right , could wrong claim completely unverifiable 'd wager braves fans net could name 3 players 1988 season could give away tickets braves games however , dad able get great seats face value , n't exactly sign hot ticket granted , fact team wins brings people ball park , mean title america 's team reason considered america 's team ted turner little tv station broadcasts across nation precisely considered america 's team even \( especially \? \) bad , could see braves games cable could cubs well , braves better , better announcers \( would rather listen harry discuss game , skip pete discuss \? \) , teams n't much worse tbs , braves lot fans outside georgia home kentucky , even though much closer cincinnati many braves fans reds fans , even 1990 could actually watch braves play go cincinnati watch reds go anywhere america watch braves 'll consider toronto america 's team braves \? 'd guess braves fans widely distributed toronto fans dale j stephenson \( steph cs uiuc edu \) baseball fanatic considered good look wise , especially overburdened information j golden kimball
steph pegasus cs uiuc edu \( dale stephenson \) subject neon deon sanders \( braves giants \) organization university illinois , dept comp sci , urbana , il lines 22 zippy telcom arizona edu r4938585 joplin biosci arizona edu \( doug roberts \) writes anyone else like deon \? think 's hype 300 season last year good , i'm convinced reminds \( sorry \) year 1987 \( \? \) tim wallach hit 30 homers 127 rbi never even came close happening course , maybe prefer guys go business n't play attention ho tim wallach explained deion explained learning play game i'm betting deion able play well last year , think odds deion playing well better last year better odds otis nixon thing factor defense , otis valuable last year i'm convinced 'll valuable year , especially next year dale j stephenson \( steph cs uiuc edu \) baseball fanatic considered good look wise , especially overburdened information j golden kimball
wpi edu \( charles stanley \) subject rbi question organization worcester polytechnic institute lines 27 nntp posting host wpi edu judgement call part scorer sac fly rbi 's \? situation brought question red sox bottom 9th score 5 1 mariners bases loaded 1 batter hits fly center , fielder catches runner third tags scores without throw , without judgement call \( n't think one \) , rbi batter seems better name would defensive , since n't really matter whether guy third scores point \( know , think several mariners stole third second , opening base would allow , batter hit grounder third baseman gets deep hole third , would n't play home , third , second , maybe therefore ca n't make throw first get last , etc scenarios , really matter guy scores way 're 4 \? tying run going score , guy third \) point batter \( imo \) n't get credit \( rbi \) utterly failing job point get hit walk , trade one run guys think \? regards , burke \( charles \) wpi wpi edu go red sox ! ! ! \( 11 3 \) go rocket ! \( 3 0 \)
f67709907 violet ccit arizona edu \( greg franklin \) subject opinions eli denny show distribution na , local organization university arizona lines 21 nntp posting host violet nntp posting user f67709907 that's happened denny sad interested , another baseball pariah , pete rose , weekday radio show sports entertainment national radio network think 's 3 5 pm locally , 6 8 pm east coast actually , air baseball business sounds lot reasonable articulate hear ray knights world greg franklin mixing encompasses lot lot f67709907 ccit arizona edu g7 races robohen things argument inept speaker ignorant drinking bout without hors dried sword sheath held together threads questioning boy favorite one 's affairs \( dog \)
st1ge elroy uh edu \( edward hui \) subject barry bonds batting 4th \? organization university houston lines 26 reply st1ge elroy uh edu nntp posting host elroy uh edu article 1993apr21 032427 22464 leland stanford edu , punjabi leland stanford edu \( sanjeev punjabi \) writes heading indicates , impossible fathom barry batting 4th giants behind clark barry awesome consistent hitter definitely best national league imho , williams , streaky hitter \( really clutch hitter \) batting 4th ahead bonds simply injustice giants fans giants 2 simple reasons \( 1 \) batting williams ahead bonds create left \( clark \) , right \( williams \) , left \( bonds \) situation middle batting order makes tougher opposing manager change pitchers \( 2 \) bonds batting behind williams means matt get good pitches hit important since struggles much breaking balls opposing pitchers n't want walk williams get bonds edward hui
ts ecn purdue edu \( thomas \) subject jack morris organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 19 roger maynard 's drivel deleted cordially , always , maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca many morons rm little time ca n't stick guy faq stop responding , guys \? last several flame wars pretty much identical could someone collect articles one , simply post entire block whenever tries start one \? 'd simpler roger apparently one embarassing specimens enjoys flames give wants \? oh , roger 're dull dull get new act tom
doctor8 jhuvms hcf jhu edu \( jason abner miller \) subject america 's team \? organization johns hopkins university hcf lines 50 distribution na nntp posting host jhuvms hcf jhu edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article 1993apr20 bsu ucs , leo bsuvc bsu edu writes absolutely correct braves fans nothing bunch correct wrong , 4 5 years ago couldnt give away ticket see braves play would bet next paycheck 80 called braves fans living outside georgia present time name 3 players 1988 season john smoltz , tom glavine , german , dale murphy , bruce sutter , pete smith , rick mahler , jim acker , jim break morrison , ron gant , andres thomas , gerald perry , ozzie , lonnie smith , jerry far \? note braves fun n hand , ask cubs fan living anywhere united states name 3 players given year 80 probably could hand , ii like braves much cubs name ron santo , ernie banks , 1969 , favorite season granted , fact team wins brings people ball park , mean title america 's team reason considered america 's team ted turner little tv station broadcasts across nation right 've watched enough braves' games know great deal players like many players cubs games get see living new york mets , put sleep , face , watching guys like rick sutcliffe luis n't put edge chair u 'll consider toronto america 's team braves actually , notice lot anti toronto sentiment states partly post series arrogance \( thanks part upside flag dork posts \) , partly roberto alomar exciting swiss cheese , partly , living baltimore winters , 've become fond 's fans \( especially call rex barney 's radio show \) side hated rivals go reds ! sorry , mets spelled \) jason miller doctor guy frank 1 win ! ! ! r
pb6755 csc albany edu \( brown philip h \) subject mvp '92 revisited organization state university new york albany lines 25 reply dtate pitt edu 's message 20 apr 93 17 31 58 gmt total baseball , also tries evaluate player 's total offensive defensive contributions , gives barry bonds total player rating 9 0 1992 one player since ruth attained mark cal ripken 1984 season rounding top five offensive players nl last season sheffield , 5 9 sandberg , 5 8 van slyke , 5 3 larkin , 4 7 top 5 offensive players al 1992 e martinez , 4 8 ventura , 4 8 anderson , 4 5 r henderson , 4 4 thomas , 4 4 short , total baseball says bonds enjoyed one best seasons ever game 's history better year mantle , mays , williams , etc \( disagree , n't flame flame writers total baseball \) also , martinez ventura neck neck , given shortcomings statistical analysis , one better year considered toss thus , total baseball supports choices bonds ventura mvps 1992 phil brown aka pb6755 csc albany edu
csc2imd cabell vcu edu \( ian derby \) subject phils winning hard way summary phils keywords phils organization virginia commonwealth university expires fri , 30 apr 1993 04 00 00 gmt lines 9 phillies two games back back extra innings last night 's game hard fought game chicago blow two games show different phillies team past seasons tended always short end 1 run games n't know many times saw losing 1 run able win , might contending team 3 0 far extra innings course , 10 3
tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) subject jack morris organization cornell univ cs dept , ithaca ny 14853 lines 19 article 1993apr20 ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) writes say one player better another able say ab player 's team would played better player b lineup sheer speculation impossible ascertain disciplines 100 certainty necessary state something fact baseball one therefore say know clemens better morris last year , larkin better griffin , ca n't ascertain ca n't prove i'm required since obviously feel threads meaningless , n't simply stay \? valentine \( , i'm going roger maynard complete total dickhead send e mail insist details \)
io20456 maine maine edu \( ryan robbins \) subject infield fly rule 1993apr15 scott skidmore edu 93106 maine maine edu 1993apr20 holos0 uucp organization university maine system lines 7 ca n't call time 's play progress ryan robbins penobscot hall university maine io20456 maine maine edu
niepornt phoenix princeton edu \( david marc nieporent \) subject white black racism phillies organization princeton university lines 55 originator news nimaster nntp posting host phoenix princeton edu article 10 p00421 psilink com dennis g parslow p00421 psilink com writes dan campbell dan c jhunix hcf jhu edu article 1993apr11 1 ulkyvx louisville edu pjtier01 ulkyvx louisville edu writes article apr 10 09 33 33 1993 pilot njin net , gajarsky pilot njin net \( bob gajarsky hobokenite \) writes 's hard working black players none 's lazy white players mcreynolds time passed , would posts like rickey driving boat drunk , killing one teammates \? would people say bonds , drunk skull , smashed car tree disabling , say , willie mcgee season \? tell would considered spoiled , lazy \( say \) awfully , assume read minds predict future makes sure would thinking things \? makes think 's lot people n't think crews god \? anyone dead mistake deserves sympathy , crews , , bonds , mcgee , rickey , , bother much two dead white men getting little sympathy \? would make feel better dead black baseball players \? beat dead horse , seem remember fair amount sympathy black fringe player named roberto clemente roy campanella anyone else may even liked players , dying young wiggins , alan \? 's besides point i'm sure people would feel slightly sympathetic rickey killed , would also criticizing lot actions example \? jose canseco \? gets couple speeding tickets , sudden attitude awful hell speeding tickets clubhouse influence anyway \? sportswriters talk time brian hunter keith mitchell \? dwi problems towards end last year \( two years ago \? \) cited sign immaturity , etc meanwhile , dykstra almost killed daulton , n't read complaining may talked bad phillies , never read anywhere criticism dykstra 's character \( daulton 's intelligence , matter \) based incident david nieporent one thing wrong theory niepornt phoenix stupid ! stupidest theory ever heard ! princeton edu baltimore orioles 93 's dangerous cult bds batf \?
roger crux princeton edu \( roger lustig \) subject bonilla reply roger astro princeton edu \( roger lustig \) organization princeton university lines 68 originator news nimaster nntp posting host crux princeton edu article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu \( eric roush \) writes article 1993apr19 princeton edu roger crux princeton edu \( roger lustig \) writes article steph pegasus cs uiuc edu steph pegasus cs uiuc edu \( dale stephenson \) writes 1993apr18 princeton edu roger crux princeton edu \( roger lustig \) writes black players ca n't survive mediocre worse , mcrae chamberlain explained \? nobody 's saying 's hard fast rule point white players likely stick around longer 're mediocre went tb iii made list 10 year 1b negative adjusted batting runs total player rating problems , 's generally far career , imho players played career 1960 considered \( n't done rest yet \) , , , , , , bergman , berry , , blair , , , , bradford , l brown , , cabell , c castillo , , , cline , , coles , collins , , , , gaston , , geronimo , , , black players lot white hispanic hmmm one question differentiate hispanic black \? , people fall categories rafael comes mind 'd fit grouping also \( oops 's 1b although light hitting utility player sorry would qualify , remember correctly \) say black , mean us born black people purposes discussion hispanic players baseball 1947 , one team 50 's signed lots hispanics went better local audience blacks would hispanics stick around blacks \? n't know remember country special racial laws one group one group blacks national history includes huge , long term , global tensions regarding black minority hispanic minority , often discriminated , never object national obsession might also worth subdivide data careers starting 10 year intervals would think prediction would true careers starting 1960 's least true careers starting 1980 's course , 'd also compare total ml racial percentages era question absolutely said , expect effect disappearing certainly exist , talk twg 's without small reason i'm opinion point less valid today 25 years ago , would curious see data well , 's list go ! 'll names go expect 're right , btw roger
ts ecn purdue edu \( thomas \) subject jack morris organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 38 article 1993apr20 ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) writes 1993apr20 1715 cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) writes contrary 's statistically impaired , little assholes like , , continent like dirty virus , working destroying glory sport cordially , always , maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca many morons rm little time sorry , roger , 're boring time one classic , ! jerk \? people hate \? fun parties \? well ! come roger maynard school ! teach best ! use time honored techniques 1 \) calling people assholes ! 2 \) comparing viruses ! advanced students 3 \) comparing dirty viruses dirty virus , tell clean one \? know , roger maynard school , teach know , ! thanks , roger made evening \) tom
kubey sgi com \( ken kubey \) subject barry bonds batting 4th \? nntp posting host summit wpd sgi com organization silicon graphics , inc , mountain view , ca lines 22 like clark williams bonds order pitchers walk clark 2 outs \( unlike last year \) williams getting better pitches hit bonds deck circle since matt terrible batting eye , helps giants lot bonds gets base , try steal 2nd driven single thompson , manwaring , clayton bat bonds , n't want run caught stealing could take big inning also bonds less need protection behind good base \( walk potential double \) draw back clark williams bases bonds think 's problem giants glad see especially robby thompson gets hot ken kubey kubey wpd sgi com \( 415 \) 390 3536
gspira nyx cs du edu \( greg spira \) subject usa mcweekly stats organization university denver , dept math comp sci lines 18 rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes article franjion spot colorado edu , franjion spot colorado edu \( john franjione \) says also , impression reading group bill james elias bunch money grubbing jerks whose mission charge much baseball statistical info bill james \? yeah sure bill james players rating book \? uh , bill james n't sell statistics sells books statistics , business providing stats like elias , stats , howe , baseball workshop etc greg
gspira nyx cs du edu \( greg spira \) subject jack morris organization university denver , dept math comp sci lines 22 bloch stanford edu \( craig meyer \) writes michael chen \( mike cunixf cc columbia edu \) wrote case , think viola would made better signing \? viola younger , left handed \( many left handed starters toronto \? well , agree viola better signing however , everyone say want lefthanded starters \? understand lefthanded spot relievers , even though usually face righthanded batters lefthanded batters n't understand people insist lefthanded starters , unless park effect \( e g , yankee stadium \) answer 're stupid seriously , think 're right money 've never understood making sure rotation left handed starters time makes sense unbalanced schedule main rival \( \) loaded lefthanded hitters , think 're completely right greg
roger crux princeton edu \( roger lustig \) subject bonilla reply roger astro princeton edu \( roger lustig \) organization princeton university lines 97 originator news nimaster nntp posting host crux princeton edu article mjones fenway mjones donald aix kingston ibm com writes fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu \( eric roush \) writes divisions based race , religion , etc make sick n't nice mlb finally waking existence \? n't shame hiring practices , field , discriminatory long \? \( quick name light hitting black outfielder 1b lasted 10 years bigs bet name two dozen white ones \) otis nixon darnell coles henry manny \) b \) light hitting 304 lifetime , 315 1966 73 playing c \) professional pinch hitter yes , also gives jerry billy hatcher beginning 10th year herm good one lonnie smith \( light hitting , horror field \) thing lots people bad gary redus light either 750 ops dion james 10 year daryl boston 10 year year vince coleman \( yeah , 's finally started decent obp \) 10 year cecil espy 10 year willie wilson yup gary ok milt thompson 10 year year gary varsho six year year ok , admit taking quick browse major league handbook , first 7 8 oh , 's time light hitting black outfielder lou brock look curt flood cesar geronimo brock , coleman , wilson hot dog \( also lonnie smith \) seems special class cfs like wilson also get break , especially actually field well brock n't bad hitter either , end spoiled 300 ba , suspect problem time look history last three decades , seems clear race based pattern utility players platoon players lesser talents stayed ml far longer white cesar cedeno light hitting \? 199 hr , 793 lifetime ops mainly houston \? also latin , btw note guys may reached 10 years yet , 've got close likewise list oh , prediction milt cuyler come back 1999 'll party h h h h h talk roger
thf2 kimbark uchicago edu \( ted frank \) subject bonilla reply thf2 midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 102 article mjones fenway mjones donald aix kingston ibm com writes fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu \( eric roush \) writes \( quick name light hitting black outfielder 1b lasted 10 years bigs bet name two dozen white ones \) otis nixon stole 300 bases \( ok , 's still light hitting , baseball managers n't think , think , like omar , perfect leadoff man awesome defense \) darnell coles 's still around 1986 , hit 20 hr henry n't played 10 years bigs n't full time major 1988 manny consistent 300 hitter billy hatcher 'll see 's still around 1994 tenth year herm goes herm lonnie smith \( light hitting , horror field \) n't count gary redus redus hardly light hitting , plus stole 300 bases close 800 ops career lhp dion james 'll see 's still around 1995 qualify daryl boston 416 440 three straight years one worst parks nl 's going one colorado 's better players year plus , make ten count time spent denver buffalo hawaii white sox vince coleman \( yeah , 's finally started decent obp \) coleman , assuming makes 1994 , never perceived weak offensively , though course led nl sb first six years majors cecil espy 'll see 's still around 1997 willie wilson wilson always overrated , hit 300 five times six year stretch led league triples five times count 's still playing 1994 , though 'll 's otis nixon deluxe slightly worse defense gary okay , 's league year , count , though 's also majors otis nixon syndrome milt thompson 's spectacular , 's neither light hitting ten year man gary varsho halfway , unlikely make 3 4 way ok , admit taking quick browse major league handbook , first 7 8 oh , 's time light hitting black outfielder lou brock look curt flood cesar geronimo cesar cedeno brock suffered otis nixon disease , n't perceived light hitting neither curt flood cesar cedeno light hitting note guys may reached 10 years yet , 've got close likewise list oh , prediction milt cuyler 'll steal lot bases ted frank thf2 kimbark uchicago edu i'm sorry , card says moops u c law school standard disclaimers
gspira nyx cs du edu \( greg spira \) subject jack morris organization university denver , dept math comp sci lines 42 bnr ca \( barry walker \) writes article 1993apr19 ramsey cs laurentian ca , maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) writes 1993apr19 024222 11181 newshub ariel yorku ca cs902043 ariel yorku ca \( shawn luddington \) writes hey valentine , n't see boston world series rings fingers damn , morris three probably hall fame future therefore , would say toronto easily made best signing n't tell boston win year wo n't even top 4 division , like 6th spite stat heads say , jack morris played large role jays winning world series last year n't care era 4 \? played leadership role win 21 games era may high , pitch many outstanding ball games pitched many outstanding ballgames , jack essentially pitched lot 500 ball last year certainly n't irrelevant , iif replace morris replacement level quality blue jays might win leadership , n't see leadership effect starting pitcher , would expect see primary effect pitching staff would expect see rest staff improve instead , rest staff declined make reasonable argument winfield providing leadership offense picked considerably effectiveness previous year i'm saying buy , least argument makes internal sense greg barry walker bnr ottawa canada opinions
bach udel edu \( paul joseph sparks j \) subject jack morris nntp posting host bach udel edu organization university delaware lines 30 father huge tiger fan , loyal blue jay fan , endured collapse 87 , 85 n't stat book , let 's throw first , morris \( 81 88 \) vs clemens \( 86 present \) many cy morris \? many cy clemens \? fenway average pitchers park detroit , hugh hitters paradise morris great team pitcher , sort doug mold morris 's team needs well pitched game , minn 91 , morris snaps ball , throw ks otherwise , tries get people clemens , elias stat book 1992 , believe clemens best lifetime record team , compared n't pitch bad would red sox last year without \? say 92 phillies \? believe clemens better pitcher power , hsi great morris among pitchers ever seen , clemens class seaver , carlton , etc paul sparks
sweda css itd umich edu \( sean sweda \) subject royals final run total organization university michigan itd consulting support lines 23 nntp posting host stimpy css itd umich edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 k mitchell bose \( kbos carina unm edu \) wrote toronto blue jays scored 329 oh , fine , 'll ignore one , coming 1981 'll teach qualify statements 1978 , oakland 's scored thundering 532 runs bleah ! ok , something shoot royals score 531 runs less season \( although decided get mcrae leadoff spot \( \) course , valentine throw one back face royals even manage another al team sean sean sweda sweda css itd umich edu css itd consultant p gammons idiotic quote week gm manager motor city marauders 's better home run park internet baseball league baseball tiger stadium 4 17
icop csa bu edu \( antonio pera \) subject baseball spanish organization computer science department , boston university , boston , , usa lines 6 originator icop csa recently , heard red sox spanish speaking radio station thought unreal red sox spanish \? anyway , want find widespread \? ny native , know spanish think la , sd , texas fla spanish spanish speaking networks local
gspira nyx cs du edu \( greg spira \) subject jack morris organization university denver , dept math comp sci lines 77 maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) writes way knowing cannot separate morris' tion rest team 's one way ing best baseball looking scoreboard end game game determines team best day end season , team best often best division playoffs determine best best point decision making pro used determine best score game lates teams individual players method inherent baseball comparing individual performances , , , baseball team game know \? method inherent real life either would assume would endorse notion cannot state , level objectivity , mother accomplished good world joseph stalin , life earth team effort want select group statistics claim clemens done better statistics criteria , fine able prove statistics measure individual 's contribution winning ws measure best meaning context base ball prove clemens contributes ws morris evaluation clemens totally sub mere opinion yet see predict ws winner greater accuracy jeanne dixon tried glasses \? find quite useful , must reason choose ignore evidence present 's bad feel necessary close mind eyes knowledge live poorer life result choice heck , 'd wager could predict ws winner greater accuracy jeanne dixon know \? full confidence despite contrary , quite capable using knowledge come statistical methods boost knowledge level n't rude tried calling kettle black \? say means either missed entire point argument , committed fallacy saying morris better clemens rings \( although , tongue cheek , claimed past \) saying impossible isolate individual 's performance team 's purpose comparing individual 's performance another individual 's per words , world , cannot objectively state jack morris important blue jays al last year world , may indeed true fortunately , world rest us occupy , 's hope never serve jury , roger think rest jury would kill 's way objectively judge defendant innocent guilty see , 2 billion people planet way knowing whether defendant would committed crime n't people planet way knowing defendant would acted different planet , living planet team effort individual crime totally isolated society part society case , anything say would absolute , refuse vote greg
gspira nyx cs du edu \( greg spira \) subject jack morris organization university denver , dept math comp sci lines 30 maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) writes lynx unm edu kbos carina unm edu \( k mitchell bose \) writes article 1993apr19 ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) writes , lee team last year would wearing ring year er er yes manny lee team last year , team would toronto blue jays team albuquerque leftturns manny lee team , would wearing ring would , however , manny lee 's team , manny lee team last year team would albuquerque leftturns would toronto blue jays possible \? albuquerque leftturns last year could possibly know team would manny lee team last year , manny lee n't team last year , 's complete , unfounded speculation state team manny lee last year , would team toronto blue jays since lee n't team , cannot possibly objectively state team would team greg
dietz parody data io com \( kent dietz \) subject let 's play name game ! organization data corporation lines 14 article 1993apr20 newshub ariel yorku ca , cs902043 ariel yorku ca \( shawn luddington \) writes changing team names ! post choices ! minnesota \( thought paul , sore feet babes big blue ox \) seattle \( think considered new ownership back aaa glory days least one local brewer \) kent dietz twins '93 mariners sometime century \?
aaron juliet caltech edu \( , aaron \) subject wounded redbirds organization california institute technology lines 18 distribution world nntp posting host juliet caltech edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article 1993apr21 bme ri ccf org , tknuth bio ri ccf org writes article 1 acad drake edu , sbp002 acad drake edu \( \) writes anyone know status jeffries arocha \? arocha broke finger trying field ground ball put dl game may require surgery injury fielding hand , good unfortunately , may damage may require surgery , would lay n't know jefferies apparently strain sort n't put dl , 's probably day day aaron
pb6755 csc albany edu \( brown philip h \) subject bob dylan baseball abstract distribution na organization state university new york albany lines 8 reply moakler romulus rutgers edu 's message 21 apr 93 16 40 44 gmt 've never heard bob dylan baseball abstract , curious could someone clue \? phil brown aka pb6755 csc albany edu
mzimmers netcom com \( michael zimmers \) subject barry bonds batting 4th \? organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 23 article franjion spot colorado edu franjion spot colorado edu \( john franjione \) writes whether good bonds behind , net stat probably tell 's reason , thinks , might self fulfilling prophecy n't understand lack ability \( say , agree \) causes swing bad pitches , thinking bonds hitting behind help stop chasing bad pitches n't mean would necessarily help improve specific deficiency meant bonds bat behind gives williams \( possibly unfounded \) confidence , might translate hitting productivity 're right biggest problem physical mental , 's less likely make difference michael zimmers voice 408 996 1965 suppliers software developers data 408 996 1974
suned cs yale edu \( wanna know \? \) subject jack morris organization yale university computer science dept , new , ct 06520 2158 lines 11 distribution world nntp posting host zoo cs yale edu since roger canadian probably knows nothing baseball gonna try explain terms hockey according logic say since 1988 bob errey better wayne gretzky hey errey contributed 2 cups good old wayne nothing \( think kings trade gretzky errey think roger \? \)
subject hits stolen 1992 grabiner math harvard edu \( david grabiner \) organization etc organization nntp posting host germain harvard edu reply steph pegasus cs uiuc edu 's message tue , 20 apr 1993 23 54 08 gmt lines 35 article steph pegasus cs uiuc edu , dale stephenson writes nhs net hits stolen extra outs compared average fielder neb net extra bases extra bases prevented compared avg fielder national league name hs nhs neb dcon dops lankford , r 39 4 12 007 844 martinez , 21 5 16 660 butler , b 1 29 5 088 716 american league name hs nhs neb dcon dops wilson , w 47 26 0 125 787 felix , j 22 0 32 713 suspect splits result positioning outfielder fast gets good jump would expected catch lot balls , preventing singles doubles , also cut balls , doubles singles however , fielder plays shallow catch short flies fewer long flies means allow fewer singles doubles anyone seen players' positioning \? butler felix play deep , lankford , martinez , wilson shallow , park effect \? thought butler liked play shallow david grabiner , grabiner zariski harvard edu sorry , number dialed imaginary please rotate phone 90 degrees try disclaimer speak one one speaks
doug fc hp com \( doug steele \) subject al stats standings nntp posting host fc hp com organization hewlett packard fort collins site x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 2 lines 3 forgot mention stats games 4 20 doug
krueger helium gas uug arizona edu \( theodore r krueger \) subject braves update ! ! distribution usa organization university arizona , tucson lines 18 article 1993apr20 zeus calpoly edu jplee cymbal calpoly edu \( jason lee \) writes simply cannot show umpire like ron gant disrespectful home plate umpire , dignity game course , expected umpires show players n't get wrong , understand nature game , believe little ego umpires would make game much better ted social body bags , make dead , drag drag drag saigon kick , body bags , lizard krueger gas uug arizona edu
cmk athena mit edu \( charles kozierok \) subject bosox win ! \( 5 2 seattle \) organization massachusetts institute technology lines 27 nntp posting host electric monk mit edu article jxu black clarku edu jxu black clarku edu \( dark wing duck ! ! \) writes last night , boston red sox win 11 games 14 games beating seattle 5 2 roger clemson pitch dominate walked least 6 man first 6 greenwell hit homeruns red sox prevail clemens struggled control , also pretty shoddy umpiring fair , walks early game , adjusted also helped \( dare say \? \) pretty good defense sox , including rivera playing second , normal position actually , clemens pretty lucky got win , considering sox almost gave lead bottom 7th mo 's error catching throw think game must win red sox seattle , considering darwin faced seattle ace randy johnson tonight must win \? april \? 've already 4 games far anyone thought would point season hope people n't getting caught streak 's fun , teams 11 3 streaks time , start season get much attention charles
tknuth bio ri ccf org \( todd \) subject wounded redbirds nntp posting host bio ri ccf org reply tknuth bio ri ccf org organization cleveland clinic foundation lines 7 article 1 acad drake edu , sbp002 acad drake edu \( \) writes anyone know status jeffries arocha \? arocha broke finger trying field ground ball put dl game may require surgery know jefferies
fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu \( eric roush \) subject mystery ron gant organization biochemistry lines 83 nntp posting host bruchner biochem duke edu article news duke edu fls keynes econ duke edu \( forrest smith \) writes article 1993apr20 mnemosyne cs du edu msilverm nyx cs du edu \( mike silverman \) writes experts want analyze ron gant \? sure needs analyze gant head case , , six seven years majors , 's put together combined total maybe one good season \? lacks self confidence , worse , n't really understand baseball curiously , seems perform best job threatened sit game , might get hit next night let play , thinking \? getting hits , driving runs \? , 's worried 's going get 30 stolen bases , career home run appears learning curve never figured play third base \( fiasco \) still plays outfield legs 's lucky 's fast , enables outrun mistakes \( , suggested earlier season , looks like 's slowing little bit , else every infield dirt little extra \) gant way much chance already may get hot couple months , 'll always revert true level gant 's ml record age 28 season year g ab ba obp slg hr sb cs 1987 21 83 265 271 386 2 4 2 1988 146 563 259 317 439 19 19 10 3rd base year 1989 75 260 177 237 335 9 9 6 1990 152 575 303 357 539 32 33 16 1991 154 251 338 496 32 34 15 1992 153 544 259 321 415 17 32 10 majors parts 6 seasons , total playing time approx 4 5 seasons looking hitting record , 's 2 seasons ops greater 800 , pretty good 1988 season pretty decent rookie 2b move third base explains lot 1989 returned , began hitting course , last year learning curve \? obviously improved batting eye years , well sb cs ratio fielding , infielder drafted , came braves system , braves put 2 position changes space year 's adequate , although great , least perception fielding colored watching learn play ml level \( know 're another long term braves fan \) playing 3b imo , 's 2nd difficult position field , catcher ss 2b , need range speed , 3b , 've got quick reflexes gun arm second chances 3b , even playing softball ! granted , 'd still put best overall infielder ss , 's gets chances , job harder still amazes many teams tried convert position players 3b maybe 's supply natural 3b scarce finally , gant player puts pressure perform well , works hard improve n't get amazingly huge arms relatively small body without lot weight work , whether 's days may valid question , question whether tries hard make something happen bat frankly , player going live potential , 'd much rather fail trying hard , trying hard enough might able teach relaxation adult age n't believe teach hustle said , n't think 'd sign gant another long term contract 's 28 , think 's free agent eligible 2 years , 'll 30 given career curve limitations , would n't expect last much past 35 ml ballplayer might surprise , atlanta 's got talent farm , 'd rather take chances road nieves et al eric
mjones watson ibm com \( mike jones \) subject hbp \? bb \? big cat \? distribution na reply mjones donald aix kingston ibm com disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host fenway aix kingston ibm com organization ibm aix esa development , kingston ny lines 54 woods ncar ucar edu \( greg woods \) writes article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu \( david tate \) writes course , claiming \( \) galarraga 's inability defer gratification n't hurting team n't paid walk rbi guy whatever alright , 's enough 've suffered kinds insults \( typical net \) , give break galarraga currently batting 400 guys complaining n't drawing enough walks would please guys , bat 1 000 \? hardly claim hurting team would help obp higher batting average yes , april 12 usa today lists le grand 422 batting average 413 obp 's 19 45 hitting 0 \( zip , nil , nada \) walks reason lot us galarraga 's long history showing nowhere near real level ability \( except drawing walks \) hit 400 , say , even 250 ab 's 'd convinced real change ability obp avg , 'd amazed 'd make bet would unique feat history game 45 ab 's prove \? look fluke players point season player avg ab blauser 367 49 grace 391 48 milligan 400 35 conine 375 40 lansing 400 50 slaught 406 32 guys really good \? well , word , significant galarraga 's average \? 45 ab level , hit worth 020 'd one hits called error one taken away good defensive play , 'd 380 range goes 0 4 next game 's way 388 one game come back june let 's talk happens pitchers start throwing fewer good pitches starts making lots outs \( someone speculated might happen \) , would agree n't taking enough pitches comment n't paid walk n't mean license swing bad pitches make outs 's along lines 's batting 400 leading league rbi 's bloody difference make n't drawing lot walks \? sheesh 's history , greg history n't walk much swings bad pitches , average n't good 45 ab 's n't mean awful lot compared history couple thousand , especially 's ample evidence \( 0 bb 1992 \) basic hitting approach n't changed yeah , might suddenly turned 400 hitter never walks , n't bet rent money mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com historical basis , middle east conflicts last long time vp dan quayle nightline , 2 october 1990
lmsc5 lmsc lockheed com subject candlestick organization lockheed missiles space company , inc lines 40 original article newsgroups rec sport baseball path butch ! netcomsv ! netcom com ! csus edu ! wupost ! uwm edu ! zaphod mps ohio state ed berkeley edu \( sean cunningham \) subject candlestick message id 1993apr21 pasteur berkeley edu sender nntp pasteur berkeley edu \( nntp poster \) nntp posting host berkeley edu organization university california , berkeley date wed , 21 apr 1993 04 16 20 gmt lines 24 hey folks , saw giants play ball 'stick saturday , april 17 game broke scoreless tie ninth two , two run homer right win \( n't game fans threw give away onto field response homer bad , huh \? \) well , 'stick still cold saturday game ended 5 45pm , cold ca n't imagine night games april 'stick wind kicked little , , got idea games , 's pile hot dog wrappers cups trash field lot time propose kid 's clean corps composed mainly 10 12 year old kids would love nothing better run field fifth inning \( guy infield \) grab trash might , age probably would given anything field ballplayers everybody wins ! think \? sean opening day stadium new owners great ! ! ! pick ck anytime giants playing state wish san jose enough balls vote stadium !
cruz stsci edu subject baseball logos available via anonymous ftp lines 31 organization space telescope science institute distribution world , na article 1993apr21 ac dal ca , arishem ac dal ca writes well , thanks matthew wall , major league baseball logos 've posting past number weeks home internet baseball archive get , ftp cc swarthmore edu , login anonymously per usual , cd baseball misc graphics directory gif files uuencoded versions available darren darren reiniger reiniger ug cs dal ca arishem ac dal ca centre marine geology , dalhousie university , halifax , n , canada people wonder generation going remind came first place successfully copied uuencoded versions logos local directory , tried gif files , said permission denied could explain , also execute uuencoded files \? thanks , ken ken cruz 1993 nfl champs dallas cowboys johns hopkins university 1993 mlb champs baltimore orioles baltimore , maryland 1993 star game oriole park camden yards
mark b subject could look organization university toronto chemistry department lines 12 yes , could look prefer post question net read somewhere long forgotten article used major league umps originally used help deaf ball player name dummy urban myth \? true \? gots ta know mark b alchemy chem utoronto ca
snichols adobe com \( sherri nichols \) subject hbp \? bb \? big cat \? organization adobe systems incorporated distribution na lines 13 article cpt odin corp sgi com kubey sgi com \( ken kubey \) writes n't say pitcher 's fear throwing strikes guys like mcgwire , bonds , frank thomas rational said exists mcgwire , carter \? see justification bonds thomas , tend higher batting averages , major difference see mcgwire carter carter n't draw walks n't pitchers afraid throw strikes carter \? sherri nichols snichols adobe com
snichols adobe com \( sherri nichols \) subject harry caray organization adobe systems incorporated lines 8 article 9500 blue cis pitt edu traven pitt edu \( neal traven \) writes btw , show hands attending year 's sabr national san diego \? 'll , ultimate sherri nichols snichols adobe com
g vfl paramax com \( steve \) subject stats organization paramax systems corporation , pa lines 6 nntp posting host g im trying find site updated \( daily \) stats national league 'll take leagues i'm really interested national league philadelphia
hbrooks uiatma atmos uiuc edu \( harold brooks \) subject bases loaded walk gives reds win 12 organization , texas urban renewal task force lines 101 article netcom com mss netcom com \( mark singer \) writes article 1993apr22 pts mot com pts mot com writes article netcom com , mss netcom com \( mark singer \) writes spring training made similarly looking comment clutch hitting bb flames flying thing clutch hitting \( sdcn 's \) screamed assumed also meant thing kind clutch performance , given comments i'm still wounds , rebuttal planned \) \( gotta homework , say \) deletions rather showed , quite , past clutch performance never able predict future clutch performance i'm sure convinced , dave apparently tony perez , however , believe time sabo plate appearance juan samuel bench available pinch hit duty past four seasons non clutch clutch ab h ba ab h ba sabo 1539 452 294 259 59 228 samuel 1564 383 245 278 83 299 claim complete statistical analysis proves existence clutch hitting , compelling testimony samuel would gotten base hit i'm sure something wrong sample size , basic assumption clutch performance random invalidates conclusions limited application something n't pretend understand statistical analysis well , agree last part \) one basic things need statistic able predict player 's performance future correlation year year player 's batting average correlated fairly well year year player 's ability walk infielder 's defensive average correlated better say , given past performance statistics pretty good handle 'll next year put simple information aging even better one basic problems something like clutch batting average overall batting average correlation year year almost zero adding sample size n't seem help much counterexample showed , consider following two players 1984 1987 non clutch clutch ab h ba ab h ba maldonado 1060 260 245 254 78 307 lemon 457 278 256 57 223 two players 1988 , logic , clutch situations , 'd bat maldonado lemon blink eye well , 1988 , maldonado hit 267 non clutch 190 clutch , lemon hit 254 non clutch 313 clutch accuse completely cooking data , 96 players 25 clutch bats every year 1984 1988 \( according elias \) simple measure , let 's look clutch ba non clutch ba use '84 '87 predict '88 96 players , 'd find 27 96 league average measure '84 87 '88 , 26 league average periods 43 one flipping coins , 'd expect get 24 48 switched difference observed results coin flip experiment significant btw , players' overall batting average '84 '87 '88 gives correlation coefficient 0 59 , significant something better 99 9 confidence level \( clutch non clutch ba \) period gives correlation 0 088 , significant level interest everyone would agree \( hope \) grand slam bottom ninth team three clutch hit way predict likely get clutch hit based past performance \( hitting clutch situations \) say , dave way actually , 's technically incorrect say ca n't predict future clutch performance 's correct say ca n't predict future clutch performance skill harold harold brooks hbrooks uiatma atmos uiuc edu national severe storms laboratory \( norman , ok \) used work brewery , , n't drink job p dal 's view florida win nl east '93
jtchern ocf berkeley edu \( joseph hernandez \) subject mlb standings scores fri , apr 23rd , 1993 organization jtc enterprises sports division \( major league baseball dept \) lines 72 distribution world nntp posting host monsoon ether berkeley edu keywords mlb , 04 23 mlb standings scores friday , april 23rd , 1993 \( including yesterday 's games \) national west lost pct gb last 10 streak home road san francisco giants 10 06 625 7 3 1 05 02 05 04 houston astros 08 06 571 1 0 7 3 1 02 04 06 02 atlanta braves 09 08 529 1 5 4 6 lost 1 04 03 05 05 san diego padres 06 08 429 3 0 5 5 1 03 04 03 04 los angeles dodgers 06 10 375 4 0 3 7 lost 3 03 03 03 07 colorado rockies 05 09 357 4 0 3 7 lost 1 03 03 02 06 cincinnati reds 05 10 333 4 5 4 6 lost 1 02 04 03 06 national east philadelphia phillies 10 04 714 7 3 lost 1 06 02 04 02 montreal expos 09 06 600 1 5 7 3 4 06 03 03 03 st louis cardinals 09 06 600 1 5 6 4 1 06 03 03 03 pittsburgh pirates 08 07 533 2 5 5 5 1 04 04 04 03 chicago cubs 07 07 500 3 0 5 5 lost 1 04 04 03 03 new york mets 07 07 500 3 0 5 5 lost 1 03 05 04 02 florida marlins 05 10 333 5 5 3 7 1 03 06 02 04 american west lost pct gb last 10 streak home road california angels 09 04 692 7 3 3 06 02 03 02 texas rangers 08 05 615 1 0 5 5 lost 2 04 02 04 03 minnesota twins 08 06 571 1 5 6 4 1 05 04 03 02 chicago white sox 07 07 500 2 5 5 5 2 02 03 05 04 seattle mariners 07 08 467 3 0 4 6 2 05 03 02 05 oakland athletics 05 08 385 4 0 3 7 lost 2 05 04 00 04 kansas city royals 05 10 333 5 0 5 5 lost 1 03 06 02 04 american east boston red sox 11 05 688 7 3 lost 2 06 01 05 04 detroit tigers 09 05 643 1 0 8 2 2 07 01 02 04 new york yankees 08 07 533 2 5 5 5 2 03 03 05 04 toronto blue jays 08 07 533 2 5 5 5 1 04 02 04 05 milwaukee brewers 05 07 417 4 0 4 6 lost 1 02 02 03 05 cleveland indians 05 11 313 6 0 2 8 lost 4 04 03 01 08 baltimore orioles 04 09 308 5 5 4 6 lost 2 02 05 02 04 yesterday's scores \( idle teams listed alphabetical order \) national league american league san diego padres 2 boston red sox 0 philadelphia phillies 1 seattle mariners 7 los angeles dodgers 1 chicago white sox 3 montreal expos 3 baltimore orioles 2 cincinnati reds 4 milwaukee brewers 4 pittsburgh pirates 5 minnesota twins 5 atlanta braves 3 toronto blue jays 6 florida marlins 4 kansas city royals 3 colorado rockies 2 cleveland indians 0 st louis cardinals 5 california angels 8 san francisco giants 13 new york yankees 5 new york mets 4 oakland athletics 1 chicago cubs idle detroit tigers idle houston astros idle texas rangers idle joseph hernandez rams lakers jtchern ocf berkeley edu kings dodgers raiders jtcent soda berkeley edu angels clippers
jeff smoggy gg caltech edu \( jeff \) subject juggling dodgers organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 44 distribution nntp posting host smoggy gg caltech edu netcom com mss netcom com \( mark singer \) writes true \( note n't think \) , lasorda fired least two reasons 1 \) publicly humiliating players 2 \) knuckling players wishes fine line getting players' input knuckling players' demands manager , much like military officer , needs \( \) players' complete obedience respect game game , 's big deal , time react , players must trust manager team often falls apart \( see boston red sox , ff \) \) strawberry 's represented media , often sounds like demands suspect comment like enjoy hitting fourth i'm used would get pretty brutally misinterpreted media came strawberry russ porter quoted strawberry saying , feel comfortable hitting cleanup think perform best role \( paraphrased memory bias \) seems like fairly non petulant answer almost certainly question like , feel moved third spot order \? media sensitive player might answer manager knows thinks batting third help team , 'd ignore answer brown stuff , seems little bit overreaction brand darryl 's response petulant personally , think argument nonsense really n't matter much order 2 5 players order batted , except personal stats darryl , 'd probably answer question , number four spot gets rbi opportunities get paid rbis think best bat fourth , willing hit third tommy thinks benefit team something like would helpful salary time rbis hitting third make sound like team player since strawberry likely go arbitration , use free agent market next contract , maybe argument useless , would help image media without appearing totally content free remember , media belief one 's best rbi man hit fourth , argument sensible , regardless whether true jeff
east sun com \( paul sun csu supply unit master scheduling \) subject box organization sun microsystems , inc lines 39 distribution world reply east sun com nntp posting host east sun com boston \( 0 \) seattle \( 7 \) boston ab r h bi seattle ab r h bi riles 2b 3 0 0 0 felder lf 4 0 1 1 quintana rf 2 0 0 0 dh 3 0 0 0 greenwell lf 3 0 0 0 ph 1 0 0 0 dawson dh 3 0 0 0 griffey jr cf 4 0 0 0 vaughn 1b 3 0 0 0 rf 3 1 0 0 calderon cf 3 0 0 0 boone 2b 4 2 3 2 cooper 3b 3 0 0 0 martinez 1b 3 1 1 0 john valentin ss 3 0 0 0 blowers 3b 4 1 2 1 pena c 3 0 0 0 valle c 4 1 2 2 vizquel ss 4 1 2 0 totals 26 0 0 0 totals 34 7 11 6 boston 000 000 000 0 seattle 022 102 7 e greenwell dp boston 1 , seattle 1 boston 1 , seattle 6 hr boone \( 1 \) \( hesketh \) sb felder \( 4 \) , blowers \( 1 \) ip h r er bb hr boston hesketh \( l , 2 1 \) 3 6 5 5 2 1 1 quantrill 2 2 3 4 2 1 0 2 0 1 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 gr harris 1 0 0 0 1 2 0 k ryan 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 seattle bosio \( w , 1 1 \) 9 0 0 0 2 4 0 hesketh pitched two batters fourth bos dawson , vaughn , john valentin , cooper sea 2 , griffey jr , blowers , boone bb bos riles , quintana sea felder , , martinez umpires hp 1b kaiser 2b johnson 3b mckean 2 12 13 , 604
magnus acs ohio state edu \( teresa \) subject chicago visit nntp posting host top magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 12 planning weekend chicago next month first live person cubs game \( ! ! ! \) would appreciate advice locals used locals stay , see , , etc e mail replies fine thanks advance ! teresa teresa ohio state university
doctor8 jhuvms hcf jhu edu \( jason abner miller \) subject sex , uniforms , good taste organization johns hopkins university hcf lines 47 distribution na nntp posting host jhuvms hcf jhu edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article 1993apr23 news cs brandeis edu , st902415 pip cc brandeis edu writes article network ucsd edu , king cogsci ucsd edu \( jonathan king \) writes reminds yet bucs cards game whitey herzog 's last year cards manager karen watching game tv , barely reason camera kept dwelling white uniform filling worst truly horrible remember game 7 1988 nlcs , dodgers defeated mets , ugh foo boo fat stomach tom lasorda came running field celebration \? yuck ! ! ! ! ! ! arms flew , keeping time rolling set 9 , flew around cozy confines , like white ran disgusting sight could n't watch mets series , watch fat stomach lasorda roll around dodger ! made memorable karen eventually said , would rather sleep jar bill 's spit look whitey herzog one uniforms like short , fat men , grunt , curse , spit lot , whitey 's certainly man former wfan host pete franklin , white rat 's true , emphasis appearance ballplayers tight uniforms works player actually looking charlie hough 's tight white shirts sort makes decide , hmmm , n't want eat lunch today tomorrow anytime soon al first became mets' gm , asked intended help redesign mets' uniforms change image particular , asked orange blue racing stripe runs sides uniforms said 's much favor keeping 're 're sexy sid fernandez , tight fitting uniform , racing stripe denote speed lard kevin mcreynolds , diving fly ball man o' war , baby ! pat howell well , never mind nothing could tight n't make uniform sizes small \) adam wishes contribute something interesting r b levin jason miller doctor guy frank tanana 1 0 , 1 50
dennis g parslow p00421 psilink com subject greg maddux run support reply news2 cis umn edu nntp posting host 127 0 0 1 organization performance systems int'l x mailer psilink dos \( 3 4 \) lines 18 know , saying ha ! braves score runs maddux , 'll shut guy , think 'll keep track bit longer last outing 5 runs total date 8 runs , 4 games braves record maddux 's starts 2 2 see ya next time dennis dennis parslow better korean good troy , ny 12180 luck symbol ! williams p00421 psilink com
yajima nttcom ntt jp \( yajima hiroshi \) subject yakult swallows \( japanese pro baseball team \) lab ntt jp 1rb lab ntt jp edu lab ntt jp lab ntt jp distribution rec organization ntt network information systems labs musashino , tokyo lines 28 reply yajima nttcom ntt jp 's message 18 apr 1993 23 29 17 gmt tuesday 's game beloved yakult swallows \( , 36 , 000 \) hanshin tigers 001 000 100 2 beloved yakult 050 020 7 w ito \( 1 0 \) l \( 0 1 \) hr yakult , 1st central league standing w l pct gb hiroshima 7 1 0 875 dragons 6 3 0 667 1 5 hanshin tigers 5 4 0 667 2 5 hated giants 4 4 0 500 3 0 beloved swallows 3 6 0 333 4 5 1 8 0 111 6 5 hiroshi yajima \( e mail yajima nttcom ntt jp \) ntt network information systems laboratories , 9 11 cho 3 chome musashino shi , tokyo , 180 japan , tel 81 422 59 , fax 81 422 59
snichols adobe com \( sherri nichols \) subject obp hurt sac flies \( hbp \? bb \? big cat \? \) organization adobe systems incorporated lines 16 article 1993apr23 rigel econ uga edu stat uga edu \( scott \) writes sorry , gotta disagree last time played ball , went several occasions intending hit fly ball deep enough score runner third advance runner third 's relatively easy actually swing path ball normally would hit good line drive fastballs 's easy , much difficult good breaking balls good hitter excellent bat control voluntarily hit fly balls outfield least , oh , 60 time \? maybe 's blurb stats scoreboard , though n't book , memory best hitting sac flies far 60 number sherri nichols snichols adobe com
sac saic com \( steve conroy \) subject football vs baseball \( game length \) organization saic lines 54 article 1993apr22 uucp , com \( chris allen \) writes article ast saic com , sac saic com \( steve conroy \) writes major league baseball trying expand appeal people shorter attention spans \( e football crowd \) \( invariably , arguments people n't like watch baseball v say thing games long boring baseball trying find way shorten games wider v appeal look , though , baseball games last around amount time football games difference action duration football games perhaps action baseball games , would get fans tune anyway , coming solution make baseball appealing bigger crowd going difficult soapbox yet another reason get since 's obvious ruling baseball works fast snail race nebraska soapbox say action football baseball football game consists approximately 120 plays average duration play around 8 seconds means game lasts approximately 3 hours 16 minute action baseball game upwards two hundred pitches field strategy field sessions \( ie \) always chance win last made ah , illusion football always lots action sense urgency game clock \( time , happens 's less 5 minutes go quite often \) sense creates drama , even may necessarily holds viewer 's attention baseball , 3 players involved action \( comes wild guess \) 70 time \? 're playing sophisticated game catch hold ball step box adjust chains touch self interesting locations 's lot dead time players warming innings manager visiting pitcher mound manager removing pitcher bringing relief pitcher takes \( 8 \? 10 \? \) pitches helen dell playing organ \( dodger fans appreciate one \) non baseball boring rate , i'm putting baseball 've avid fan since remember 's watching baseball game v home tedious non baseball 's major league baseball networks trying address talk shortening game 's v football action baseball steve conroy conroy terminus saic com i'm gone , man solid gone ! science applications international corporation
chuq apple com \( chuq von rospach \) subject barry bonds batting 4th \? organization go sharks , go giants , inc lines 42 nntp posting host apple com punjabi leland stanford edu \( sanjeev punjabi \) writes evidence working take look standings 's real easy get focussed forget giants happen first place 's working , n't screw changing things , think ought different folks like argue theoretical details prefer watch teams win giants slip third , talk arrange batting order , think 's stupid focus 's wrong , simple fact working p mailing list maintainer think clark best first baseman majors matt williams better power hitter ballplayer \? majors \? n't follow al , wo n't comment majors nl , choice 1b league team , 'd clark , 'd hit third \( fantasy team grace murray , 've never able get clark 'd take three without hesitation real life , think clark \) williams even close much prefer defense , n't , matt good , solid swing real punch drops 230 , cleanup , according latest baseball weekly , 's hitting 275 , last week , hitting 296 's exactly chopped liver mostly , though , giants winning , frankly , long continues , 's rather silly second guess strategy evidently , folks would rather right first chuq imho von rospach , esd support training \( dal aux \) chuq apple com member , sfwa editor , otherrealms genie mac bigot alink chuq minor league fans minors request medraut apple com \( san jose giants 1 9 \) san francisco giants fans giants request medraut apple com \( stick \? ! \) san jose sharks fans sharks request medraut apple com \( new seat 127 tbd \)
gspira nyx cs du edu \( greg spira \) subject obp hurt sac flies \( hbp \? bb \? big cat \? \) organization university denver , dept math comp sci lines 68 stat uga edu \( scott \) writes article 1993apr23 mnemosyne cs du edu gspira nyx cs du edu \( greg spira \) writes paladin leland stanford edu \( jason \) writes article 1993apr21 cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) writes think sac flies way obp ba seem dumb anyone else \? \( fact comment \) batter 's obp hurt sac fly \? especially sac n't effect , since thing , sac flies usually score run advance base situations involve batter giving ab benefit team \( sacrifice \) \? hurt stats \? sac bunt act , ordered manager batter go trying get sac fly , evidence available indicates ability players ca n't hit sac flies , fly place often 's nobody third greg sorry , gotta disagree last time played ball , went several occasions intending hit fly ball deep enough score runner third advance runner third 's relatively easy actually swing path ball normally would hit good line drive fastballs 's easy , much difficult good breaking balls good hitter excellent bat control voluntarily hit fly balls outfield least , oh , 60 time \? n't facing major league pitching maybe good plate , guys likely opt getting base hit helping average getting sacrifice best example know jerry willard 91 series minnesota put one game swung past parallel accomplished \( barely \) getting run safely stats little study 1993 scoreboard book entitled hit sacrifice flies purpose \? summary findings 5 year period , sac fly type fly balls produced 17 6 percent time situations sac fly useful , 17 7 percent time sac fly n't useful looked leaders sac flies , found leaders sac flies words , guys would expect good hit sac fly type fly balls 3 often needed difference way small result skill essentially , players hit lot sac flies seem hit hit sac fly type flies often , without runner third stats concludes appears conclusive hitters cannot hit sacrifice flies purpose even practice batting cage greg
cs902060 ariel yorku ca \( geoffrey e dias \) subject pitcher get save \? organization york university , toronto , canada lines 4 subject line says rule qualifies pitcher making save \?
ehd hwc ca \( michael goddard \) subject looking strategic baseball organization health welfare , canada lines 22 nntp posting host ehd hwc ca x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 last year nine year old son fell love baseball likes play follow professionals would like buy board game catch glimpse practise little managerial looking computer game type game manual determines winner something friends spread table rainy day spend thoughtful time would appreciate names recommended games n't follow newsgroup , e mail responses would ideal michael ehd hwc ca michael goddard \( 613 \) 954 fax \( 613 \) 952 b9 , environmental health centre , 's pasture , ottawa , canada , ehd hwc ca michael goddard \( 613 \) 954 fax \( 613 \) 952 b9 , environmental health centre , 's pasture , ottawa , canada ,
macomber sctc com \( chuck macomber \) subject twins update 4 22 organization sctc lines 88 twins update posted april 22 , 1993 twins defeated milwaukee brewers 5 4 today conclude three game brew crew twins took two three games series , scores follows tuesday april 20th mn 10 mil 0 winning pitcher banks \( 2 0 \) wednesday april 21st mil 10 \( 10 \) mn 8 lp hartley \( 0 1 \) thursday april 22nd mn 5 mil 4 wp deshaies \( 4 0 \) sa highlight low lights series jim deshaies continues surprise twins , american league well going today 's game , deshaies 3 0 1 74 era deshaies allowed 2 earned runs 6 2 3 innings , meaning era climb slightly deshaies , came mn via trade philadelphia sent david west , continues make andy macphail look like true genius willie banks put together two solid starts twins , going 6 1 innings monday solid twins hitting deshaies banks combine 6 twins eight victories , tapani mahomes erickson 0 5 wednesday 's game marked first opposing left handed starting pitcher twins year \( rickey bones \) twins subsequent relief , including grand slam kent hrbek pushed lead 7 3 twins pitching staff could hold lead , though , allowing 4 walks 7th inning , 2 scored coming bases loaded tapani gave one walk relieved , guthrie two walks , mike hartley one walk inning tied game 7 7 , brew crew rocked mike hartley 3 runs top tenth win continues shaky brew crew 6 20 career blown saves come brew crew , today 's game shaky well coming ninth 5 2 lead , gave solo hr vaughn , hits darryl hamilton dickie thon finally retiring side , tying run made second base weak hearted twins fans advised watch ninth general news pedro munoz continues improve outfielder , playing left field tuesday 's game continues bat weakly right handed pitching , though , limited playing time gene larkin jt \( former gopher \) playing right field , bat left handed twins begin three game series detroit tigers tomorrow starting pitching scheduled erickson , mahomes , banks detroit tigers two 20 run games last ten days , provide quite challenge young mn pitching staff twins 9 hr 's year , three puckett , hrbek , winfield , third , fourth , fifth batters , respectively brian harper pegged 4 first 6 baserunners attempting steal second year , shows much improvement category jim deshaies three pick offs one balk year say best 1st base move baseball move enabled pitch tight early jams , certainly contributed 4 0 start watch see umpiring crews began calling balk tightly response opposing team complaints leg kicking behind rubber pick move current mlb al west standings \( hernandez , jtchern berkeley edu \) american west lost pct gb last 10 streak home road california angels 08 04 667 7 3 2 05 02 03 02 texas rangers 08 05 615 0 5 5 5 lost 2 04 02 04 03 minnesota twins 07 06 538 1 5 6 4 lost 1 04 04 03 02 chicago white sox 06 07 462 2 5 4 6 1 02 03 04 04 seattle mariners 06 08 429 3 0 4 6 1 04 03 02 05 oakland athletics 05 07 417 3 0 3 7 lost 1 05 03 00 04 kansas city royals 05 09 357 4 0 5 5 3 03 05 02 04
oasys dt navy mil \( andrew kilpatrick \) subject want tickets ! reply oasys dt navy mil \( andrew kilpatrick \) distribution usa organization carderock division , nswc , bethesda , md lines 14 want star tickets anyone know get \? public sale sold \? work company anyway answers would appreciated please e mail thanks , andrew
steph pegasus cs uiuc edu \( dale stephenson \) subject hits stolen first base 1992 keywords stats organization university illinois , dept comp sci , urbana , il distribution lines 15 gap caltech edu jeff smoggy gg caltech edu \( jeff \) writes steph pegasus cs uiuc edu steph pegasus cs uiuc edu \( dale stephenson \) writes finally , throw formula call defensive contribution , dcon mean , n't \? well , although admit 's exciting rat killer dale j stephenson \( steph cs uiuc edu \) baseball fanatic considered good look wise , especially overburdened information j golden kimball
timothy lamar colostate edu \( timothy \) subject barry bonds batting 4th \? nntp posting host lamar acns colostate edu organization colorado state university , fort collins , co 80523 lines 23 article 1993apr22 hpcvaac cv hp com paula koufax cv hp com \( paul andresen \) writes article 1993apr21 032427 22464 leland stanford edu , punjabi leland stanford edu \( sanjeev punjabi \) writes \( 2 \) bonds batting behind williams means matt get good pitches hit important since struggles much breaking balls opposing pitchers n't want walk williams get bonds wonder good hitter behind argument really valid anyone done study paula koufax cv hp com paul andresen hewlett packard \( 503 \) 750 3511 want study \? look matt williams year mitchell gone look scientific study , 'll show truth matt besides , bonds wants bat 5th tim want actual analysis batting order , look analysis baseball batting order monte carlo simulation freeze , journal operations research america , 22 , 1975
ez027993 dale ucdavis edu \( gary built like villanueva huckabay \) subject warning homeowners , low flying aircraft , astronomers organization pitchers ca n't throw strikes , limited \( wakefield division \) lines 11 oakland , california , sunday , april 25th , 1 05 pm pdt jose mesa vs storm davis warned gary huckabay outside \? ! right pipe , kenny ! realize n't great control , dave net c'mon ! gary , styrofoam cup really plate 's foot right throw ball
tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) subject barry bonds batting 4th \? organization cornell univ cs dept , ithaca ny 14853 lines 22 article car apple com chuq apple com \( chuq von rospach \) writes folks like argue theoretical details prefer watch teams win giants slip third , talk arrange batting order , think 's stupid focus 's wrong , simple fact working fine strategy expect run away division giants going need every break get , want hold lead n't think afford , say well worked pretty well far , might able improve results , n't think worth risk mostly , though , giants winning , frankly , long continues , 's rather silly second guess strategy evidently , folks would rather right first two tend go hand hand cheers , valentine
talavage sage cc purdue edu \( tom talavage \) subject ny mets trivia question organization purdue university computing center distribution na lines 31 article 1993apr23 e2big mko dec com e2big mko dec com \( \) writes article news duke edu simon hercules acpub duke edu writes name three ex met pitchers lost every team majors \( except colorado florida \) two also defeated every team majors \? dan nolan ryan qualifies counts would guess viola one beaten also lost every team majors viola played nl mets possible defeated lost every team ditto tanana mentioned previous post 3rd pitcher lose every team probably tom seaver , could koosman n't remember seaver managed get win white sox brief boston 'd say pitcher defeat every team either mike \( bounced around enough long enough period time \) koosman mentioned would also guess one two manage beat every team manage lose every team tom thomas talavage purdue university , electrical engineering grad student grad school greatest time one 's life pay spent last 16 years becoming good !
rbp sw stratus com \( russell peterson \) subject john wetteland , derek lilliquist , info please organization stratus computer , inc lines 17 distribution world nntp posting host paradise sw stratus com recent problems indians pitching staff heard numerous names thrown around could solve problem one name heard mike soper \( rp \) far know , soper pretty good minor league stats give kid chance \? anyone know anything guy \? russell peterson everyone believes something rbp sw stratus com believe 'll another beer
paul csd4 csd uwm edu \( paul r krueger \) subject twins update 4 22 organization computing services division , university wisconsin milwaukee lines 12 nntp posting host 129 89 7 4 article 1993apr23 sctc com macomber sctc com \( chuck macomber \) writes wednesday 's game marked first opposing left handed starting pitcher twins year \( rickey bones \) nice post chuck , made one mistake bones right handed pitcher however , hrbek 's grand slam came lloyd , lefty
uxa cso uiuc edu \( underdog \) subject \? organization university illinois urbana lines 15 anyone tell call left handed pitchers \? also story term originated thanks ! ! go cubs ! prediction finish 500 year without winning east
deitch gisatl fidonet org \( david deitch \) subject baseball spanish organization galaxy information system \( gis \) atlanta , ga lines 31 tue , 20 03 38 , antonio pera icop csa bu edu wrote 1 133 411 , ap recently , heard red sox ap spanish speaking radio station thought ap unreal red sox spanish \? anyway , want find ap widespread \? ny native , know ap spanish ap think la , sd , texas fla spanish ap spanish speaking networks ap local last couple years , braves program reach latin american audience included licensing spanish fan magazines , encouraging spanish co broadcasts , marketing programs directed latin american community one biggest heros latin american audience francisco \( fact slightly embarrassed ! \) one funny story spring training , braves played game mexico game broadcast back atlanta spanish took broadcasters innings get going keep changing location seems took find place could get clear signal cellular phones calling game ! david deitch , \( gis \) atlanta fidonet uucp uucp ! gisatl ! deitch gateway faq oo internet deitch gisatl fidonet org \( \) david deitch , ` galaxy information system administrator \( gis \) atlanta \( 404 \) 252 \( \) \) \) u user david deitch fido via fidonet node 1 133 411 0 \( \) \( \( \( \( jm \)
mjones fenway aix kingston ibm com \( mike jones \) subject yankee thoughts reply mjones donald aix kingston ibm com disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host fenway aix kingston ibm com organization ibm aix esa development , kingston ny lines 45 scott asd com \( scott barman \) writes article 1993apr20 clam com sam steamer clam com \( sam mandelbaum \) writes 2 wade boggs live boston like wade lot , career winding would rather see yanks start develop long term solution \( e hensley , russ davis , velarde \? \) besides , wade n't range shame charlie hayes , huh \? would playing 3b , wade boggs charlie hayes \? choice boggs contest give time develop younger talent area yankee farm system seems deficient hem two words russell davis playing cavern albany \( aa \) last year \( 375 410 385 alleys center \) , davis went 285 355 483 22 homers n't small parks road eastern league , either 's 23 \( ! \) mle 258 308 416 , 17 hr fielding statistics , seeing number times last year 'd say 's brooks robinson , neither howard johnson unless think win pennant year \( seems possible \) need boggs , think 're making sort mistake davis boston made boggs , leaving minors two three years 'd shown good hitter 3 spike owen see wade boggs 'd much rather see develop dave silvestri whoever wade spike next infield going raise yankee staff era 1 2 point guys sides careers bad gave randy many trips columbus shuttle ! hrm \? still roster \( 16 ab first two weeks \) 've never figured suspect hits enough \( especially vs lefties \) reasonable shortstop one rumor running around spring training wanted convert silvestri catcher \( ! \) body type wrong shortstop 'd think somebody division , plays baltimore dozen times year , would know better mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com one guys went , doubled confusion n't require rhodes scholar two teammates went , four would protect guys drysdale
subject apology article grabiner math harvard edu \( david grabiner \) organization etc organization nntp posting host germain harvard edu reply stevet eskimo com 's message 22 apr 93 16 18 58 gmt lines 51 article eskimo com , steven thornton writes article 1993apr21 1 tesla njit edu drm6640 tesla njit edu writes watch mattingly average fielder start , yes , proof really two adequate ways measure fielding prowess first , advantage applicable older players , since uses raw data available almost mlb history , total chances per game method favored total baseball people among others basically says measure fielder many balls gets subject kinds bias , almost completely useless first basemen raw stats , way tell first baseman 's putouts made throws fielders , made plays likewise , ca n't tell whether double play 6 4 3 3 6 3 fielding runs thus gives first baseman credit putouts double plays , assists errors thus favors first basemen play deep , reaching lot balls forcing pitcher cover first frequently also hurts first baseman play behind left handed pitching staffs thus face left handed batters better method , newer based collected last years , measures percentage balls hit part field guy responsible better course , still n't first baseman 's defense references mattingly 's 1992 defensive rating , stats method , mike 's baseball player team ratings 1 defensive average , uses larger \( probably better \) zones , mattingly tied second league hand , contributed 233 runs batting actions , pretty healthy number 233 batting runs good , mostly past runs produced 1986 n't say much value 1993 david grabiner , grabiner zariski harvard edu sorry , number dialed imaginary please rotate phone 90 degrees try disclaimer speak one one speaks
subject bases loaded walk gives reds win 12 4 21 grabiner math harvard edu \( david grabiner \) organization etc organization nntp posting host germain harvard edu reply mss netcom com 's message thu , 22 apr 1993 16 03 05 gmt lines 55 article netcom com , mark singer writes article usenet ucs indiana edu rstimets silver ucs indiana edu \( robert stimets \) writes game saw little everything incredible defense , power , clutch pitching , little reds managed overcome trademark lack timely hitting crucial situations spring training made similarly looking comment clutch hitting bb flames flying thing clutch hitting \( sdcn 's \) screamed assumed also meant thing kind clutch performance , given comments certainly case significant ability perform clutch , clutch performance certainly happens every time game winning hit clutch pitching quoted something happened , claim particular player expected clutch pitcher past four seasons sabo 59 hits 259 abs defined clutch situations \( scouting report \) average 228 period another 1539 abs 452 hits average 294 according rest sdcn 's , differential completely totally random cannot used reasonable inference , perhaps perez used pinch hitter situation simple statistics tell 2 chance average clutch hitter would large split \( average decrease 7 points , standard deviation 30 \) hitters league , hitters hit poorly tuesdays weak correlation \( 01 best study \) clutch hitting last four years clutch hitting year , probably clutch data luck rather ability based data , n't see reason pinch hit sabo , player poor clutch hitter past many factors involved decision pinch hit pinch hitter give platoon advantage \? \( portion sabo 's clutch split results platoon split certainly real ability , even nothing clutch hitting \) singles hitter plate need home run \? pitcher facing batter trouble curves \? david grabiner , grabiner zariski harvard edu sorry , number dialed imaginary please rotate phone 90 degrees try disclaimer speak one one speaks
subject mvp '92 revisited grabiner math harvard edu \( david grabiner \) blue cis pitt edu 1993apr22 island com blue cis pitt edu gap caltech edu organization etc organization nntp posting host germain harvard edu reply shippert cco caltech edu 's message 22 apr 1993 16 34 44 gmt lines 46 article gap caltech edu , tim shippert writes ideally , strongest offensive players , schmoe play dh hit would take care position corrected frank 's since case \( \? always way \? \) going trouble finding true value using models position players several reasons difference main reason good hitters prime \( frank thomas danny tartabull \) rarely regular dh 's , even ca n't field 's commonly place put aging veterans another use dh slot help player come back injury slowly , getting bat lineup without forcing play field would expect players hit worse dh 's rest season third factor player split time dh first outfield n't hit well dh 's reason reggie jackson good example five years rf dh angels , hit like old reggie right second third factors lost players considered primary position player plays 90 games right 60 dh count right averages logical starting place would look defensive replacement value \( find \) 1b lf something assume forced play defense would play true zero value , even though doubt actually true players like winfield molitor would let us discount time spend playing dh , forces team find another real fielder play makes sense might also look another way although average offensive performance dh may lower left fielder , replacement level offensive performance certainly lower left fielder ca n't hit well enough keep job anywhere , certainly ca n't hit well enough keep job dh david grabiner , grabiner zariski harvard edu sorry , number dialed imaginary please rotate phone 90 degrees try disclaimer speak one one speaks
mss netcom com \( mark singer \) subject bases loaded walk gives reds win 12 organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 179 article 1993apr23 cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) writes article netcom com mss netcom com \( mark singer \) writes sigh go actually , several 's stated definable skills would make hitter likely perform better clutch situations vs non clutch situations , however one might choose define clutch right define skill \? must \? say batting average predictor used judge two hitters likely get hit particular plate appearance , valid define skill hitting baseball \? 's 've said , except used smaller sample batting average clutch situations elsewhere thread sherri nichols repeats position batting average clutch situations meaningless statistic predicting future , entirely meaningless least meaning , n't know find say could predict future 've suggested statistic necessarily meaningless 's data situation non clutch clutch ab h ba ab h ba sabo 1539 452 294 259 59 228 samuel 1564 383 245 278 83 299 reds manager time , assume would basis letting sabo hit rather pinch hitting samuel i'm sure basis would utilized prior performance would n't used particular aspect prior performance correct \? 'll try avoid insulting 's difficult dismiss hundreds hours work n't pretend understand , nobody denying people hit well clutch past challenge find method predict hit well clutch future , , claiming since one time claim able predict future said accept data indication samuel would better chance success situation sabo dismissing work i'm stating opinion saying work renders opinion contrary invalid , retention opinion kind insult work fine plenty data obviously biases must coloring work , since know clutch hitting well defined consistent skill , failures withstanding challenge prove ! guarantee prove existance form clutch ability , plenty happy dancing around say clutch hitting well defined said data significant say consistent skill said indicator performance certain set circumstances n't going win support merely stating position claiming 'they stupid , must right' , big sigh ever called anyone else r b stupid nice , however , see consider possibility actually could biases yeah hindsight always 20 20 n't make bright \? stupid argument know ah knew could get name calling 's word like much suggestion \? take data 1990 1991 , attempt come method predicts hit well clutch 1992 works , attempt apply 1993 beyond wait minute thought first define clutch hitting , n't \? made strong statements back proven total idiot made two statements post 1 convinced conclusions regarding clutch hitting 2 would hit sabo 2 , many us make number written statements media think happen baseball i'm shy 'll make statement believe season 's end chris sabo 's batting average clutch situations significantly lower batting average non clutch situations ca n't prove happen , guess 'll wait see 's another one 1989 1991 joe carter 's batting average clutch situations significantly batting average non clutch situations year presume think random non clutch ab 411 h 259 clutch 338 ab 68 h 201 could expect 1992 mr carter \? well , composite ba 1989 268 1990 262 1991 263 , think pretty good idea kind batting average produce 1992 hit 264 surprising , huh \? also 1992 non clutch 536 ab 144 h 269 clutch 86 ab 20 h 233 , n't prove overall statistical trend used predict future performance across breadth major league ballplayers makes think 1993 joe carter 's batting average clutch going high ba non clutch situations 1 \( \) , plenty company john stats , inc editor scouting report wherein statistics regarding clutch hitting compiled , reported referenced text bill james makes numerous references player 's ability hit well clutch saying predict future \( others \) saying work renders statements \( mine \) meaningless n't accept , words proves total idiot stupid total idiot , hostility beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
barring cs washington edu \( david barrington \) subject mea culpa bosio organization computer science engineering , u washington , seattle lines 46 like clinton reno , accept full responsibility senseless disaster wife picked game go thus caused return pre season projected sox offense like 's bosio good , lucky \( hard grounder vaughn glove straight boone threw bosio first , 3 4 1 \) , backed good defense \( many non trivial groundouts \) game amazingly fast , sox tended go quickly hesketh also working fast sox relief pitching ok runs quantrill two ridiculous hard line single greenwell let get past trying catch greenwell 's mental stability serious concern \( guess always , quirks amusing back mvp candidate \) wednesday got huff johnson striking bad inside pitch \( apparently johnson made ok , 've got stay focused gesture iron mike interpreted taunting \) , struck heavy next two times valentine noted , last night came first riles quintana walked open game say take first pitch \? mike , 6 4 3 pi quoted bosio batting practice fastball next time also hit first pitch , hard liner straight center also made pathetic error failed catch boone 's hr \( looked comparable ball lance johnson caught highlight reel night \) riles good defensively \? could n't tell field angle range looked bad , dp cost run two leadoff \? hope fletcher gets well soon also , put bret boone fifth reasons beyond seemed work , 3 4 hr good defense \( wag behind us said sure n't want go back calgary ! \) theory put leadoff type fifth 'll likely lead second \( boone \) well , face hot angels another power pitcher langston reminder contest entries open next wednesday expect surge way , ties broken earliest entry one entry per person , please , easy pseudonyms dave mb
wall cc swarthmore edu \( matthew wall \) subject mlb c nntp posting host swarthmore edu organization hi , i'm matt , i'm boston red sox fan distribution usa lines 30 article cvbnetprime com , prime com \( sorry missed posting \) wrote could kind soul please email copy mlb c thanks chris v prime com mlb c archived internet baseball archive ftp cc swarthmore edu \( 130 58 67 44 \) must use full email username id password cd baseball schedules 's filed mlb schedule program c clarity schedules pre generated east coast times text files well , couple tv schedules please send tv info teams matt matt wall wall cc swarthmore edu hey , gotta job , ok \? april 6 , 1993 boston red sox seize first place
wall cc swarthmore edu \( matthew wall \) subject frank bolick nntp posting host swarthmore edu organization hi , i'm matt , i'm boston red sox fan distribution usa lines 41 article hydra gatech edu , gt0523e prism gatech edu \( michael andre mule \) wrote article lynx unm edu kbos carina unm edu \( k mitchell bose \) writes article 3f zippy telcom arizona edu r4938585 joplin biosci arizona edu \( doug roberts \) writes doug roberts willing trade frank bolick bag used baseballs ! let 's go expos ! one fun note rockies home opener think frank bolick 's nickname , whenever saw name denver expo series , big e5 next spirit chris berman , frank bolick ho ho ha ha , frank bolick frank cake icing bolick frank 's cow bolick frank get ribbon stay birthday present bolick frank burns bolick frank lee bad player bolick frank suck , bolick matt wall wall cc swarthmore edu hey , gotta job , ok \? april 6 , 1993 boston red sox seize first place
tknuth bio ri ccf org \( todd \) subject \? nntp posting host bio ri ccf org reply tknuth bio ri ccf org organization cleveland clinic foundation lines 24 article news cso uiuc edu , uxa cso uiuc edu \( underdog \) writes anyone tell call left handed pitchers dont know story comes fact , batter faces northeast pitcher mound , left arm south , hence term \? also story term originated thanks ! ! go cubs ! prediction finish 500 year without winning east
mjones fenway aix kingston ibm com \( mike jones \) subject 200 sbs 200 hrs reply mjones donald aix kingston ibm com disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host fenway aix kingston ibm com organization ibm aix esa development , kingston ny lines 41 dans fore csd sgi com \( dan steinman \) writes last night giants mets radio broadcast hank ted discussing fact 16 players ever hit 200 homeruns stolen 200 bases career \( hojo batting \) anyone list \? easy sounds come could n't mays , mantle , aaron , henderson , morgan , bonds \( dad \) , \? \? \? frank robinson \? molitor \? yount \? guessing 'd interested see whole list first , please watch line lengths everyone second , franklin rescue ! 's list player hr sb aaron 755 240 mays 660 338 586 204 563 228 winfield 406 216 dawson 377 304 baylor 338 285 332 461 wynn 291 225 strawberry 280 201 morgan 268 689 256 309 yount 235 247 208 253 sandberg 205 297 players marked still active numbers 1991 's 15 16th probably rickey henderson , listed 184 hr , 994 sb george brett , listed 186 sb , 291 hr surprises \? probably reggie , , wynn steals maybe morgan \( lot people \) homers kind surprised realize sandberg many steals , though n't surprised number 200 mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com dreams real last say life \? ellis
dtate pitt edu \( david tate \) subject winfield 's spot time greats team organization department industrial engineering lines 50 article kto murdoch acc virginia edu drw3l delmarva evsc virginia edu \( david robert walker \) writes article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu \( david tate \) writes winfield ca n't touch frank robinson mel ott , far tell 'd also hard time convincing rate better equal clemente two sets numbers career equivalent average equivalent runs 1 ruth 377 , 2 aaron 318 , 3 ott 318 , 2197 4 robinson 313 , 7 clemente 289 , 8 winfield 288 , 1921 ruth class rate \( eqa \) total \( \) performance , aaron runs everybody total category ott robinson , lead winfield categories , could safely put ahead ahead reggie , although barely ahead numbers normalized league park clemente held really anemic offensive production earliest years , still productive died reasonably safe assume 150 200 runs could gotten still , jackson , , clemente , winfield form pretty tight knot yes , \( \) talking peak level , career averages \( b \) clemente best fielding rf time , far anyone tell quick scan last night , looking players peak comparable better winfield quick n dirty subjective judgement , could make good cases ruth , aaron , ott , robinson , clemente , kaline , , klein , jackson , , probably others knock winfield , comment consistency players awesome stretches good stretches , winfield uniformly excellent hall fame \? absolutely top 10 peak \? i'm sure top 10 total career value \? yes , almost certainly david tate free agent says one 's mine \( dtate pitt edu \) even try seduce prof story probs says player says owner big catullus write wind , swift running water
pb6755 csc albany edu \( brown philip h \) subject bosio 's hitter organization state university new york albany lines 19 watched final inning bosio 's hitter several people work vizquel made barehanded grab middle , someone remarked fielded glove , would n't time throw riles yet , throw beat riles two steps wonder many others watched final think vizquel choice make play bare hand anybody think vizquel wrong field ball barehanded \? failed field cleanly , would \( \) error hit \? \( judging bosio 's ball bounced past , must thought would go hit \) whether vizquel right wrong , certainly made one hell play phil brown aka pb6755 csc albany edu
jmann vineland pubs stratus com \( jim mann \) subject apology article organization stratus computer inc , marlboro lines 26 reply jmann vineland pubs stratus com nntp posting host pubs stratus com article grabiner germain harvard edu writes subject kinds bias , almost completely useless first basemen raw stats , way tell first baseman 's putouts made throws fielders , made plays likewise , ca n't tell whether double play 6 4 3 3 6 3 fielding runs thus gives first baseman credit putouts double plays , assists errors putouts biased yet another way range thing makes good ability field sorts balls thrown digging dirt , stretching others , forth important thus , putouts provide information maybe need comparision many balls thrown area first baseman vs many actually got jim mann stratus computer jmann vineland pubs stratus com
cybernet cse fau edu \( j scott \) subject houston mailing list organization cybernet bbs , boca raton , florida lines 4 anyone mail address houston 's mailing list \? thanks advance j scott edu
dietz parody data io com \( kent dietz \) subject bosox go smoke ii \( seattle 7 0 \) organization data corporation lines 27 oh , yea , chris bosio pitched hitter one minimum , two bases ball first inning , one runner left , 95 pitches listened game radio listening dave call game real treat \( long keep ron fairly quite , doubt anyone better fairly guy really annoying \) , guess clemens viola pitching , would different story \) two shutouts two nights , best hitting team major league baseball pretty impressive league man , johnson , bosio hanson keep going mariners could really interesting team follow year also , john cummings \( rookie \) three solid support fleming comes back may best starting staff american league year \( relief another story , though \) cool first hitter able follow start end , think win kind award way called game guy truly joy listen deserves pennant race kent dietz twins '93 mariners nl team ! follow \?
craige sad hp com \( craig eid \) subject giants tickets sale organization hp sonoma county \( srsd mwtd mid \) x newsreader tin version 1 1 4 pl6 lines 50 i'm season ticket holder pair f giants tickets available every game except opening day 're located lower reserved , section 3 , row 2 're two rows \( 5 feet \) behind mvp lower box seats go 17 25 apiece i'm selling tickets 25 pair 's schedule next 8 weeks e mail 're interested note times pacific daylight savings time apr 28 new york 7 35pm apr 29 new york 1 05pm apr 30 montreal 7 35pm may 1 montreal 1 05pm may 2 montreal 1 05pm may 4 philadelphia 7 35pm may 5 philadelphia 1 05pm may 7 los angeles 7 35pm may 8 los angeles 1 05pm may 9 los angeles 1 05pm may 17 houston 1 05pm may 18 houston 1 05pm may 19 houston 1 05pm may 20 cincinnati 1 05pm may 21 cincinnati 7 35pm may 22 cincinnati 1 05pm may 23 cincinnati 1 05pm june 3 pittsburgh 7 35pm june 4 pittsburgh 7 35pm june 5 pittsburgh 1 05pm june 6 pittsburgh 1 35pm june 8 st louis 1 05pm june 9 st louis 1 05pm june 11 chicago 7 35pm june 12 chicago 1 05pm june 13 chicago 1 05pm june 21 san diego 7 35pm june 22 san diego 7 35pm june 23 san diego 1 05pm june 24 colorado 1 05pm june 25 colorado 7 35pm june 26 colorado 1 05pm june 27 colorado 1 05pm craig eid e mail address craige sad hp com
slutsky tesla njit edu subject professional sports fm radio organization new jersey institute technology lines 8 nntp posting host tesla curious known professional sports teams whose games regularly broadcast fm station one aware wysp philadelphia carries games respond summarize list bruce slutsky slutsky tesla njit edu
jle world std com \( joe leonard \) subject orioles phillies home mem day organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 13 subject sez wondering either team town weekend \( 5 30 5 31 \) probably get phillies tix , vet hold bunch \( hope 're still 1st 's late may , \) camden yards problem way getting park w ticket \? advice home \? joe leonard jle world std com p please reply directly , keep net dull roar
jplee cymbal calpoly edu \( jason lee \) subject john franco organization california polytechnic state university , san luis obispo lines 12 's john franco \? mets hardly using heard completely recovered , i'm sure anybody information franco , would appreciate could drop line jason lee jplee oboe calpoly edu jlee cash busfac calpoly edu sf giants e pi 1 0 beautiful equation mathematics magic sad words tongue pen , saddest number might john greenleaf whittier 148
luigi sgi com \( randy palermo \) subject braves offense nntp posting host bullpen csd sgi com organization silicon graphics , inc , mountain view , ca lines 29 article 1993apr23 news acns nwu edu casbah acns nwu edu \( michael \) writes 've braves fan long 've watching baseball \( almost 12 years \) say tp preface i'm post braves team made slow starters people amazed braves n't hitting n't n't hitting last year time , year slow mays 1991 1992 seasons , yet still managed go series years well , team different , suprised slow start \? started way past two years , 'll way richmond club makes majors judge offense june july things start average i'm happy reds gotten poor start giants always well early part season , 'll race july \( like last years \) unless bond 's , staff get rocked mid june wow ! really know hurt guy guess n't bother watching games 's already decided \) luigi randy palermo luigi csd sgi com fax \( 415 \) 961 6502 silicon graphics computer systems , 2011 n shoreline blvd mt view , ca 94039 play , go jail 's law
mss netcom com \( mark singer \) subject bases loaded walk gives reds win 12 organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 94 article news cso uiuc edu hbrooks uiatma atmos uiuc edu \( harold brooks \) writes article netcom com mss netcom com \( mark singer \) writes n't pretend understand statistical analysis well , agree last part \) cool thank intelligent response devoid silly name calling others \) one basic things need statistic able predict player 's performance future correlation year year player 's batting average correlated fairly well year year ok basic problems something like clutch batting average overall batting average correlation year year almost zero adding sample size n't seem help much actually , think large scale sample size part problem seems plot players baseball regard ba vs clutch ba deviation would get kind bell curve \( x axis deviation clutch hitting vs non clutch axis number players \) certainly would players extreme ends bell supposition find players consistently \( year year \) one end bell , might able make reasonable conclusions players \( opposed baseball players \) counterexample showed , consider following two players 1984 1987 non clutch clutch ab h ba ab h ba maldonado 1060 260 245 254 78 307 lemon 457 278 256 57 223 two players 1988 , logic , clutch situations , 'd bat maldonado lemon blink eye well , 1988 , maldonado hit 267 non clutch 190 clutch , lemon hit 254 non clutch 313 clutch accuse completely cooking data , wo n't hear kind accusations interesting selected maldonado , someone also looked inconsistent hitter \( terms ba \) , hitting 1989 92 217 , 273 , 250 , 272 admittedly , traded leagues well clubs clutch hitting record equally inconsistent , purposes 1993 would draw conclusions ability hit clutch based prior performance n't know would felt 1988 , may indeed right looked sabo found consistent record hitting , consistent pattern clutch hitting proportionately non clutch ba ditto joe carter probably brings us heart disagreement others topic must conclusion based statistical history able applied broadly throughout data base validity \? impossible \( irrational \) apply statistical analysis selected components data base \? btw , players' overall batting average '84 '87 '88 gives correlation coefficient 0 59 , significant something better 99 9 confidence level \( clutch non clutch ba \) period gives correlation 0 088 , significant level interest completely accept reasoning , find individuals end spectrum consistent basis \? actually , 's technically incorrect say ca n't predict future clutch performance 's correct say ca n't predict future clutch performance skill amen beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
philly ravel udel edu \( robert c hite \) subject professional sports fm radio nntp posting host ravel udel edu organization university delaware lines 20 article 1993apr23 1 tesla njit edu slutsky tesla njit edu writes curious known professional sports teams whose games regularly broadcast fm station one aware wysp philadelphia carries games respond summarize list wip real home eagles reese birds fm radio joke classic rock station ! whats sports world coming \? think good signature , right ! , stupid message go phillies ! ! !
tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) subject bases loaded walk gives reds win 12 organization cornell univ cs dept , ithaca ny 14853 lines 139 article 230 netcom com mss netcom com \( mark singer \) writes article 1993apr23 cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) writes sigh go started predicting future , entirely meaningless least meaning , n't know find say could predict future certainly ! non clutch clutch ab h ba ab h ba sabo 1539 452 294 259 59 228 samuel 1564 383 245 278 83 299 sabo clearly better hitter samuel yet would pinch hit samuel predict samuel clutch hitter sabo choke hitter right \? 'd call predicting future reds manager time , assume would basis letting sabo hit rather pinch hitting samuel i'm sure basis would utilized prior performance would n't used particular aspect prior performance correct \? right would used aspects prior performance shown consistent past overall performance , l r splits , even matching hitting pitching styles give advantage used properly even else equal , would advantage gained looking past clutch performance case , everything else pointed sabo one time claim able predict future said accept data indication samuel would better chance success situation sabo comes thing perez left sabo , predicting future , next ab predicting sabo likely get hit samuel supporting swap , predicting opposite dismissing work i'm stating opinion saying work renders opinion contrary invalid , retention opinion kind insult work well , yes aware existance claim incapable understanding \( though suspect simply unwilling \) yet rather forcefully state opposite n't seem think work worth reading \( yet obviously feel topic important \) 'd say insulting say consistent skill said indicator performance certain set circumstances right ! beef proven indicator future performance circumstances least none 've able come know indicator future performance , please let us secret nice , however , see consider possibility actually could biases certainly repeatedly stated , come study even hints consistent clutch ability , would love ! however straightforward attempts study failed miserably yeah hindsight always 20 20 n't make bright \? stupid argument know ah knew could get name calling 's word like much well , stupid argument \( honestly debating \? \? \? \) sure , know sabo n't get hit idea whether samuel would done better one ab certainly n't prove anything ! believe season 's end chris sabo 's batting average clutch situations significantly lower batting average non clutch situations ca n't prove happen , guess 'll wait see simply prediction chris sabo year \? prediction batters , past years , hit \( xxx amount \? \) worse clutch overall \? mean first , say , 'll wait see second much stronger statement fact , suggests rule test rule past data see worked recent years think agree rule n't work last year year , unlikely better year right \? 's another one 1989 1991 joe carter 's batting average clutch situations significantly batting average non clutch situations year presume think random i'm going get case analysis sure , find somebody hit poorly '89 '91 hit poorly '92 well also find hit poorly '89 '91 hit well '92 , n't prove overall statistical trend used predict future performance across breadth major league ballplayers makes think 1993 joe carter 's batting average clutch going high ba non clutch situations 's fallacy unless reason expect consistency , run proves nothing give us reason expect clutch ba correlate one year next \? 've seen detailed study n't expect correlate stupid total idiot , hostility stupid reference statement stupid \( n't see deny \) total idiot \? yes prove unwilling even consider evidence might suggest wrong , would say term fits nicely tell \? term fit \? open mind \? valentine
chyang engin umich edu \( chung hsiung yang \) subject seattle bb \( al stats standings \) organization university michigan engineering , ann arbor lines 24 distribution world nntp posting host engin umich edu article senator bedfellow mit edu cmk athena mit edu \( charles kozierok \) writes article franjion spot colorado edu franjion spot colorado edu \( john franjione \) writes griffey , well , intentional walks sure \? 'd say pitching around likely yeah , maybe likely mariners tigers series , seems like every time base runners , pitchers seem purposely pitch around give free pass funny thing griffey struggling last game four game series remember correctly chung yang cheers , charles
wynblatt sbgrad5 cs sunysb edu \( michael wynblatt \) subject good hands \( apology article \) organization state university new york stony brook lines 28 nntp posting host sbgrad5 cs sunysb edu keywords mattingly , fielding , good hands article eskimo com stevet eskimo com \( steven thornton \) writes stuff deleted mattingly scores badly counts n't get many balls , lets lot balls go fact looks smooth , great hands , makes errors means nothing traditional brainless reliance observations easily misled like lot bad fielders , mattingly actually makes look better range 's nowhere near bad steve garvey , 's much compliment agree flavor post , disagree one specific argument great hands means nothing seems first baseman 's defensive value entirely \( even primarily \) ability field grounders catch popups many chances get game \? many fewer gets chances catch throws 2b , ss , 3b p \( mean total much higher grounder popup totals \) implies value catching throws well , even high , line dirt good hands needed plays , thus value n't numbers relative number plays , 'd guess values abilities similar 's like n't judge catcher 's defense primarily field popups \( marked suppose \) michael
subject yanks 's george speaks kwolfer eagle wesleyan edu organization wesleyan university nntp posting host willet wesleyan edu lines 7 matt nokes 2 run single ron darling hit \? watching game yesterday flashed something regarding talking mark connor bullpen coach said something like 's mark connor 's fault bullpen horrible ! ! go ! ! george sticking non baseball nose baseball business shut george , spend money , get players leave buck coaches players alone
ns1 cc lehigh edu \( charles edward james \) subject john wetteland , derek lilliquist , info please organization lehigh university lines 21 wondering anyone knew john wetteland put dl first 15 day period \? read usa today sports section surgery repair broken toe , wondering new thought letting heal today 's usa today \( 4 23 \) john wetteland come dl tonight possibly pitch series weekend \( forget play \) another question , derek lilliquist main closer indians gone need know cause need find reliever replace wetteland far lilliquist ok information either players would greatly appreciated thank time derek lilliquist probably going main closer , kind bullpen committee also charles james n't care 're going , lehigh university ai n't lost lehigh edu anonymous person csc 252
joec hilbert cyprs rain com \( joe cipale \) subject old predictions laugh organization cypress semi , beaverton lines 23 article spot colorado edu spot colorado edu \( \) writes prediction red sox cubs series broncos occur end world , one officially end world \? \) see end ws well folks , bottom ninth bases loaded full count sandberg 1 1 game clemens winds , heres pitch swung line drive center zupcic moves left 's joec cyprs rain com warning elvis hazardous joec ursula ee pdx edu health sure wo n't help reputation bike , therefore ! go red sox ! go celtics ! go ! go !
paula koufax cv hp com \( paul andresen \) subject kevin mitchell nntp posting host koufax cv hp com organization lady stand triple lines 12 seems classic mitchell move , drops fly ball , play n't heard anything serious leg paul , \? bitter mitchell 's performance seattle \? nah stretch farm animal beyond natural length paula koufax cv hp com paul andresen hewlett packard \( 503 \) 750 3511 home 3006 nw mckinley corvallis , 97330 \( 503 \) 752 8424 sabr member since 1979
edu \( ken johnston \) subject professional sports fm radio nntp posting host edu organization thomas jefferson university lines 19 article news udel edu philly ravel udel edu \( robert c hite \) writes article 1993apr23 1 tesla njit edu slutsky tesla njit edu writes curious known professional sports teams whose games regularly broadcast fm station one aware wysp philadelphia carries games respond summarize list wip real home eagles reese birds fm radio joke least hear joke 100 yards outside city limits wip ever signal \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? ken
drew carley drew carley canrem com subject skydome tix reply drew carley drew carley canrem com organization canada remote systems distribution rec lines 19 schedule flexible games candidates ac \( though 'd prefer see texas \) hi tony think might able help ! rangers toronto thursday july 8th sunday july 11th tickets hard find order far enough advance although n't ticket broker 's telephone number hand give couple days able get hold couple blue jays ticket info \( 416 \) 341 1111 want order credit card , call \( 416 \) 341 let know , want tickets save possible long distance call else fails might able pull strings get pair let know whats happening drew carley , toronto canada deluxe 1 25 go away , shall taunt second time ! canada remote systems toronto , ontario 416 629 7000 629 7044
dmoney magnus acs ohio state edu \( dean r money \) subject braves come around nntp posting host bottom magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 28 braves doubters n't worry bats come alive , braves come around pitching solid , long braves n't serious injuries starting rotation , 'll continue pitch well heck , five starters braves rotation , could even sustain injury one five \( hope n't happen , though \) bats pendleton certainly bat 280 , justice catching fire , bream , nixon , sanders , gant well , 's much offense kept quiet much longer right , cleveland indians 7 players batting 300 ! certainly would n't seven respective seven \( though would n't braves something right pitching 7 players batting 300 \? \) bullpen well , suspect bats come alive , guys bullpen less concern anyway , believe braves tough beat season i'm saying braves automatically division , i'm season \( though 's awful painful watch times right \) go braves ! ! ! dean
hhenderson vax clarku edu subject game length \( braves update ! ! organization clark university lines 31 sent version post ago , swallowed void apologies anyone ends receiving sherri nichols writes article 22apr93 vax clarku edu hhenderson vax clarku edu writes snichols adobe com \( sherri nichols \) writes n't happen think 11 15 minutes added length games last 10 years added anything interesting would quantify \? suppose easy way would look attendance figures anyone got numbers \? attendance figures n't going quantify anything personal opinion , clearly stated add end sentence , 're confused meant oh , n't confused understood personal opinion thought discussing need shorten games arguments declare need seem hinge assertion long games bore people otherwise discourage going ballpark 'd like see increased length games negatively affected attendance , problem , something done n't , n't problem , 's need monkey things heather hhenderson vax clarku edu
st1ge rosie uh edu \( edward hui \) subject reason giants june \( giants fast start \) organization university houston lines 39 reply st1ge rosie uh edu nntp posting host rosie uh edu article 1993apr22 377 bnlux1 bnl gov , bnlux1 bnl gov \( kenton yee \) writes article 93111 psuvm psu edu psuvm psu edu writes giants 8 last 10 games behind solid pitching \( excluding 13 12 win atlanta \) stay around first place say first 50 games , think 've got legitimate chance winning pennant \( maybe even \) n't remember giants 1st place late june last year \? pitching collapsed problem \( \) 2 3 good starting pitchers \( swift , , \( ca n't remember name \) \) starters extremely unreliable often get blasted 4 innings means already shallow bullpen gets worked means months , bullpen collapses post star record tends much worst pre star record john , went 4 0 last night bargain pickup team , got minimum 5 thought someone lost pre post records giants last seasons \? bet records tends worst worst season goes really true excluding last season , giants better 2nd half team 1991 , hot august pull within games braves dodgers fading september giants may go back earth , fast last season two reasons \( 1 \) barry bonds \( 2 \) roger craig longer manager dusty manage pitching staffs much better craig edward hui
tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) subject bases loaded walk gives reds win 12 organization cornell univ cs dept , ithaca ny 14853 lines 87 article 4dn netcom com mss netcom com \( mark singer \) writes actually , think large scale sample size part problem seems plot players baseball regard ba vs clutch ba deviation would get kind bell curve \( x axis deviation clutch hitting vs non clutch axis number players \) certainly would players extreme ends bell right definitely supposition find players consistently \( year year \) one end bell , might able make reasonable conclusions players \( opposed baseball players \) may root confusion please consider following hypothetical open mind note \( yet \) saying anything question hand suppose simplified lotto game pick number 1 10 win number drawn suppose large population people play game every week first year game , approximately 1 4 population win 7 times second year game , 1 4 7 time winners 7 time winners third year game , 1 4 7 times first two years win 7 suppose started 1024 people population three years , 32 people consistently , last three years , 140 number times expected expect big winners fourth year game \? know skill involved nothing consistent winners influence chances winning suppose n't know whether chance skill might involved perhaps people population psychic , something would test hypothesis \? look correlations population population show zero correlation psychics show high positive correlation \( even n't good psychics , still manage win 7 times years \) net result \? small positive correlation entire population probably brings us heart disagreement others topic must conclusion based statistical history able applied broadly throughout data base validity \? impossible \( irrational \) apply statistical analysis selected components data base \? well , zero correlation zero correlation mention sabo hit poorly clutch last 3 \( \? \) years look past , find clutch patterns likely reverse remain consistent length streak n't seem make difference probability player clutch choke next year reason expect streak different past streaks \? true 75 three year streaks remained true form , might something useful would n't zero correlation instead 50 three year streaks remain true form , 50 three year streaks reverse look numbers say three year choke streak implies likely choke year would equally valid look numbers say three year choke streak implies likely clutch year , since probabilities split 50 50 way completely accept reasoning , find individuals end spectrum consistent basis \? would something useful would also positive correlation every individual exhibits pattern holds true , another exhibits pattern cheers , valentine
king cogsci ucsd edu \( jonathan king \) subject teams organisms stats stats \( jack morris \) organization university california , san diego lines 124 distribution na nntp posting host cogsci ucsd edu summary let 's talks stats stats note i'm posting part argument roger , independent sort thread actually quote things roger wrote , might better think sampling post \( hip hop sense \) fits want say maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) writes point decision making pro used determine best score game lates teams individual players method inherent baseball comparing individual performances , , , baseball team game 's interesting parallel way viewing baseball team people 's conception biological organism biology context , would likely read fitness score game organisms teams interpret players trickier , either organs , genes might seem reasonable choices depending point trying make genes interpretation actually might really interesting case , would different probably longer post , however , take organ view , knowledge biology make us pause start saying things like species x fit species better organ z given know organs , would often suspicious claims \( note type argument quite often made map species x onto , organ z onto \) hand , statements kind seem reasonable others , far test \( e g might reasonable assuming gross pathology , particularly species primate \) even make statements , concerned functioning whole organism , possibility one organ might crucial one species second organ another \( mention possibility organ particularly crucial third species \) however , non kind streak , want say organism completely magical whole intriguing process made various interact ways potentially observable processes might localized particular organs , others may distributed across multiple organs way , like baseball team , except think pretty clear processes interactions involved baseball much simpler less numerous organisms say one player better another able say ab player 's team would played better player b lineup sheer speculation impossible ascertain one thing quite difficult baseball perfectly controlled experiments sometimes tough , course , never stopped researchers best , sometimes deriving powerful conclusions even absence certainty goes far beyond sheer speculation , even sheer speculation motivate interesting research want select group statistics claim clemens done better another pitcher statistics criteria , fine cases , 're seeing word statistics means summary observed events , events viewed output process , possibly inputs processes thus , valid notion processes put together functioning organism , data form statistics might give us basis test particular hypotheses able prove statistics measure individual 's contribution winning ws measure best meaning context baseball statement brings us back concept fitness fitness defined terms organism environment might fit one situation another moving baseball , clear team spends entire season environment including teams league least nominal sense , division winners teams league , \( average \) better fitness scores competing real sense , fairly large random component performance team difficult impossible account terms factors intrinsic \( interesting \) baseball true biology also direct biological equivalent world series world series , random component may greatly magnified small number games played , teams suddenly experience huge changes originally successful might fun watch , 's unclear really means one un related point yet see predict ws winner greater accuracy jeanne dixon hand , seen us predict outcome divisional races better random assignment teams finishes , maybe us \( e g \) better participants forum regular basis probably due fact 162 game schedule gives little hope bad hops n't difference winners losers moreover , 've opportunity see analysis world series situation makes strong claim nobody predict ws winner reliably greater accuracy coin biased reflect well known home vs road effect winning percentage stats nice hobby 's new knowledge produced since stats summaries events , 's true know events derive stats somebody trying understand process behind stats , stats produce new knowledge , might even reliable , repeatable , useful speaking , get back producing knowledge different field , course , produce knowledge even though i'm relying stats jking
mb cray com \( maynard brandt \) subject twins update 4 22 lines 18 nntp posting host zzzzzz cray com organization cray research inc article 1993apr23 sctc com macomber sctc com \( chuck macomber \) writes twins update posted april 22 , 1993 jim deshaies continues surprise twins , american league well going today 's game , deshaies 3 0 1 74 era deshaies allowed 2 earned runs 6 2 3 innings , meaning era climb slightly deshaies , came mn via trade philadelphia sent david west , continues make andy macphail look like true genius minor correction hartley came west trade deshaies signed free agent \( 1 7m 2 years \) pitched san diego last year regards , maynard brandt cray research , inc
dudgeon hardy u washington edu \( doug dudgeon \) subject bosio 's hitter organization university washington lines 19 reply dudgeon opus washington edu nntp posting host hardy u washington edu pb6755 csc albany edu \( brown philip h \) writes watched final inning bosio 's hitter several people work vizquel made barehanded grab middle , someone remarked fielded glove , would n't time throw riles yet , throw beat riles two steps wonder many others watched final think vizquel choice make play bare hand morning 's paper \( radio \? \) , vizquel quoted saying could fielded ball glove still easily thrown riles , barehanded instead make final play memorable seems cocky , made work 's entitled doug dudgeon dept chemical engineering , bf 10 dudgeon opus washington edu university washington , seattle space available
mss netcom com \( mark singer \) subject bases loaded walk gives reds win 12 4 21 organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 50 article grabiner germain harvard edu grabiner math harvard edu \( david grabiner \) writes article netcom com , mark singer writes based data , n't see reason pinch hit sabo , player poor clutch hitter past many factors involved decision pinch hit pinch hitter give platoon advantage \? \( portion sabo 's clutch split results platoon split certainly real ability , even nothing clutch hitting \) singles hitter plate need home run \? pitcher facing batter trouble curves \? hey ! 's \? agree ! platoon advantage \( sabo vs samuel \) players reputation excellent fastball hitters , reputation fooled often slow curves change ups sabo power , little bit better batting eye samuel noted agressive free sabo homerun power players started game hitting 200 may game considerations might prompted perez want reserve samuel use later game line , samuel never get given , n't see lot suggest pinch hitting , see anything suggest pinch hitting , course , clutch hitting information 's useless 's david grabiner , grabiner zariski harvard edu sorry , number dialed imaginary please rotate phone 90 degrees try disclaimer speak one one speaks mark singer mss netcom com
texdude cs1 bradley edu \( philip allen \) subject baseball trivia nntp posting host cs1 bradley edu organization bradley university lines 15 holds record career strikeouts playing one team \? holds record career strikeouts rangers \? \( hint nolan ryan n't either \) two pitchers 100 career saves two different teams \? player hit 300 career home runs steal 300 career bases team \? fair peeking baseball stats phil allen texdude cs1 bradley edu
subject yankee thoughts kwolfer eagle wesleyan edu organization wesleyan university nntp posting host willet wesleyan edu lines 61 article mjones fenway , mjones fenway aix kingston ibm com \( mike jones \) writes scott asd com \( scott barman \) writes article 1993apr20 clam com sam steamer clam com \( sam mandelbaum \) writes 2 wade boggs live boston like wade lot , career winding would rather see yanks start develop long term solution \( e hensley , russ davis , velarde \? \) besides , wade n't range shame charlie hayes , huh \? would playing 3b , wade boggs charlie hayes \? choice boggs contest give time develop younger talent area yankee farm system seems deficient hem two words russell davis playing cavern albany \( aa \) last year \( 375 410 385 alleys center \) , davis went 285 355 483 22 homers n't small parks road eastern league , either 's 23 \( ! \) mle 258 308 416 , 17 hr fielding statistics , seeing number times last year 'd say 's brooks robinson , neither howard johnson unless think win pennant year \( seems possible \) need boggs , think 're making sort mistake davis boston made boggs , leaving minors two three years 'd shown good hitter 3 spike owen see wade boggs 'd much rather see develop dave silvestri whoever wade spike next infield going raise yankee staff era 1 2 point guys sides careers bad gave randy many trips columbus shuttle ! hrm \? still roster \( 16 ab first two weeks \) 've never figured suspect hits enough \( especially vs lefties \) reasonable shortstop one rumor running around spring training wanted convert silvestri catcher \( ! \) body type wrong shortstop 'd think somebody division , plays baltimore dozen times year , would know better mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com one guys went , doubled confusion n't require rhodes scholar two teammates went , four would protect guys drysdale regard boggs 'll relate story yankee fan fenway last year opening day see face baltimore could n't help listen boston fans talk various players team one guy totally boggs , sucks , etc told yankee fan 'd take second would want trade back said pile sh know boggs personal problems playing boston , come 's future hall really adds needed dimension yanks solid hitter , decent fielder importantly teacher , ask pat kelly think 's got good years left bat may key contributor stretch win american league east year boston fans class ! ! ! 'll probably boo like crazy first time back hope goes 4 4 shuts
franjion spot colorado edu \( john franjione \) subject bosox go smoke ii \( seattle 7 0 \) nntp posting host spot colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 10 dietz parody data io com \( kent dietz \) writes oh , yea , chris bosio pitched hitter one minimum , two ever hitters mariner history \? john franjione department chemical engineering university colorado , boulder franjion spot colorado edu
mss netcom com \( mark singer \) subject juggling dodgers organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) distribution lines 65 article gap caltech edu jeff smoggy gg caltech edu \( jeff \) writes netcom com mss netcom com \( mark singer \) writes true \( note n't think \) , lasorda fired least two reasons 1 \) publicly humiliating players 2 \) knuckling players wishes write ! fact , statements rebuttal earlier posting made , strong rebuttal statements please ! slander shame fine line getting players' input knuckling players' demands manager , much like military officer , needs \( \) players' complete obedience respect game game , 's big deal , time react , players must trust manager team often falls apart \( see boston red sox , ff \) \) game , 's big deal \? \? \? \? employees leave workplace , n't matter say boss company \? strawberry 's represented media , often sounds like demands suspect comment like enjoy hitting fourth i'm used would get pretty brutally misinterpreted media came strawberry russ porter quoted strawberry saying , feel comfortable hitting cleanup think perform best role \( paraphrased memory bias \) seems like fairly non petulant answer almost certainly question like , feel moved third spot order \? first , 's ross porter second , really tired seeing kind response indicates parrot media person says writes brain choose characterize something certain fashion , 's believe accurate unnamed mediot made characterization media sensitive player might answer manager knows thinks batting third help team , 'd ignore answer brown stuff , seems little bit overreaction brand darryl 's response petulant brand darryl 's response petulant , never heard response darryl call name referred someone else concluded hate n't hate think 's disagree , fine stop putting words mouth beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
ebay sun com \( david edwards \) subject strike zone width 23 \( jose canseco 's organization sun microsystems , inc lines 38 distribution usa reply ebay sun com nntp posting host ebay sun com article atlas nafb trw com , atlas nafb trw com \( \) writes well , 's studying tape , frame frame 's biggest thing notice , however , strike zone become death union ! plate 17 \( 1 \) across , 23 ! call high strikes strikes , quit calling pitches 3 outside strikes 're balls ! speaking 23 wide strike zone 'd sure like see cameras placed major league park overview shot home plate available cbs ws , dream , players managers must upset current 23 wide strike zone mark wait minute read rules right portion ball portion plate given ball 2 9 diameter sez zone width 17 \( 2 2 9 \) 22 8 still less 23 number given forgive ump 2 object moving 85 100 miles per hour many times straight line think umpires union great grasp rules ! ! ! david edwards
hbrooks uiatma atmos uiuc edu \( harold brooks \) subject bases loaded walk gives reds win 12 organization happy festival ! lines 71 article 4dn netcom com mss netcom com \( mark singer \) writes article news cso uiuc edu hbrooks uiatma atmos uiuc edu \( harold brooks \) writes article netcom com mss netcom com \( mark singer \) writes actually , think large scale sample size part problem seems plot players baseball regard ba vs clutch ba deviation would get kind bell curve \( x axis deviation clutch hitting vs non clutch axis number players \) certainly would players extreme ends bell supposition find players consistently \( year year \) one end bell , might able make reasonable conclusions players \( opposed baseball players \) let 's careful players' performance completely random \( clutch clutch \) , would still expect players good clutch every year good every year two years worth data , 'd 1 4 players good year , 1 4 bad year , 1 2 would one good one bad year 96 players 5 years \( '84 '88 \) flipping coin , 'd expect 3 players good 5 years 3 bad every year actually get good years 0 1 2 3 4 5 clutch performers 4 10 37 24 18 3 coin flip \( random \) 3 15 30 30 15 3 essentially distribution clutch performers number years good performance would get process leading deviations non clutch performance completely random anything clutch hitting \( least definition \) predictive capability , expect see number players ends much larger predicted flipping coin , limit players lot average clutch situations \( say , 1 standard deviation mean \) one year , random explanation still looks good four years \( '84 '87 \) looked data elias , 79 \( 29 \) players minimum 25 \( 50 \) bats clutch situations 1 sigma mean two different years 79 \( 29 \) players , 38 \( 14 \) changed sign two years words , great clutch hitters one year really horrible year random process , 'd expect numbers 39 5 \( 14 5 \) everything 's measured clutch hitting period years could used predict ability proposed definition looked like random process \( caveat may something related platoon advantage could dragged data e g , john lowenstein probably never clutch ab left handed pitcher , might well , would bias since clutch abs would geared platoon advantage \) subject glanced casually lot people put lot effort studying every one , exception elias study , unable find anything would allow predict someone clutch situations better flipping coin \( self serving plug follows flaws elias study discussed paper forth coming sabr book , perfect game , taylor publishing authors supposed get slice advance , go bug local bookstores , maybe get enough take wife dinner \) harold harold brooks hbrooks uiatma atmos uiuc edu national severe storms laboratory \( norman , ok \) used work brewery , , n't drink job p dal 's view florida win nl east '93
jhunix hcf jhu edu \( andrew e \) subject camden yards organization homewood academic computing , johns hopkins university , baltimore , md , usa lines 18 nntp posting host jhunix hcf jhu edu article 1993apr23 uvm edu med uvm edu \( eddy \) writes anyone know get tickets see birds camden yards specifically , anyone confidence particular ticket agencies new england new york area fair prices \? tickets hard get , even box office camden yards really want see game \( go school baltimore \) , price issue tickets go 15 , willing go high 20 25 really want come men go crazy andrew something , dark sticky congregations \( 410 \) 516 time 's getting strong get better sting way dealing feeling one one peter gabriel ca n't go like long
west esd dl nec com \( mike west \) subject barry bonds batting 4th \? organization engineering support division , nec america , inc lines 25 nntp posting host swan esd dl nec com x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 timothy \( timothy lamar colostate edu \) wrote article 1993apr22 hpcvaac cv hp com paula koufax cv hp com \( paul andresen \) writes article 1993apr21 032427 22464 leland stanford edu , punjabi leland stanford edu \( sanjeev punjabi \) writes \( 2 \) bonds batting behind williams means matt get good pitches hit important since struggles much breaking balls opposing pitchers n't want walk williams get bonds wonder good hitter behind argument really valid anyone done study want study \? look matt williams year mitchell gone look scientific study , 'll show truth matt besides , bonds wants bat 5th thought williams batted mitchell would n't show williams better 5th rather 4th \? point moot , though , clark pretty much demands 3rd , like point , bonds like bat 5th person left bat 4th williams mike west west esd dl nec com
edu subject pitcher get save \? organization vista college , storm lake , ia lines 28 article 1993apr23 newshub ariel yorku ca , cs902060 ariel yorku ca \( geoffrey e dias \) writes subject line says rule qualifies pitcher making save \? imho untrustworthy , silly stat , today 's rules , baseball understanding qualify save pitcher cannot pitch three innings potential tying run must least appear deck circle also , lead pitcher enters cannot three runs believe official scorers must assert authority determining winners etc instance , pitcher come ninth lead , blow lead , fall behind , team come back next half inning earn win pitcher earned win , way guy could pitch five strong innings middle relief see teammates rally tie score assume came start fourth left eighth teammate holds opposition scoreless ninth score run bottom ninth win third pitcher earns win middle reliever gets stat satisfaction mike bleed blue dodgers even like lasorda spaghetti sauce
fester island com \( mike fester \) subject white black racism phillies organization usr local rn organization lines 55 article 1993apr20 princeton edu niepornt phoenix princeton edu \( david marc nieporent \) writes article 10 p00421 psilink com dennis g parslow p00421 psilink com writes beat dead horse , seem remember fair amount sympathy black fringe player named roberto clemente roy campanella anyone else may even liked players , dying young wiggins , alan \? believe well baseball time died 's besides point i'm sure people would feel slightly sympathetic rickey killed , would also criticizing lot actions example \? jose canseco \? gets couple speeding tickets , sudden attitude awful hell speeding tickets clubhouse influence anyway \? sportswriters talk time uh , also charged chasing wife car , smashing tree , well carrying loaded firearm car speeding reported 100 mph reckless driving brian hunter keith mitchell \? dwi problems towards end last year \( two years ago \? \) cited sign immaturity , etc actually , n't heard thanks meanwhile , dykstra almost killed daulton , n't read complaining may talked bad phillies , never read anywhere criticism dykstra 's character \( daulton 's intelligence , matter \) based incident n't know reading watching , sure saw lot , dykstra 's poker games writing along lines incredibly stupid selfish , 'd hurt team catcher , etc espn raised questions judgement , etc print media sf area questioned disciplinary action would n't taken dykstra , one article pointed lenny wanted kill , ways would n't endanger people 's lives dykstra quoted stupid , etc mike disclaimer opiini h h damn ! h h q w q wq wq ! x \? exit x q c \? quitbye ctrlaltdel q q logout save quit ! quit zz zzzzzz vi man vi l c e x \? help helpquit ! ! man help c c e ! help exit \? quit \? q ctrlshftdel hey , stop l1a
janice cc wwu edu \( douglas norris \( mad \) \) subject bosio hits red article janice organization western washington university lines 28 edu writes chris bosio , seattle 's pitcher , hit red sox 7 0 ! ! ! second hitter seattle history ! ! \( randy johnson got first \) also , bosio 's first career hitter ! mlb first hitter year ! go 's trivia time ! ! ! ok , know dave batting average valle caught chris bosio 's hitter last night \( batting 300 , btw \) question caught randy johnson 's hitter june 1990 \( hint dave valle \) \) mad douglas todd norris \( henson cc wwu edu \) depeche mode , u2 , might giants , inxs , , ha , police exercise basic rights , could build building site bricks shame built hope depeche mode , want van canucks sea sea mariners sea 2 0 \( 1st rnd \) 53 26 \( 2nd \) 6 8 \( 5th \) 2 14 \( 5th \) congratulations chris bosio \( mariners \) hitter boston !
fester island com \( mike fester \) subject bonilla organization usr local rn organization lines 25 article 1993apr21 princeton edu roger astro princeton edu \( roger lustig \) writes say black , mean us born black people purposes discussion hispanic players baseball 1947 , one team 50 's signed lots hispanics went better local audience blacks black hispanics \? would hispanics stick around blacks \? n't know remember country special racial laws one group one group blacks national history man , better serious reading really , really doubt meant say mike disclaimer opiini h h damn ! h h q w q wq wq ! x \? exit x q c \? quitbye ctrlaltdel q q logout save quit ! quit zz zzzzzz vi man vi l c e x \? help helpquit ! ! man help c c e ! help exit \? quit \? q ctrlshftdel hey , stop l1a
mizar usc edu \( michael \) subject info j snow organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 15 distribution world nntp posting host mizar usc edu i'm sure heard start rookie j snow california angeles fact father star receiver l rams radio personality los angeles j came yankees organization n't know much j anyone info background young please post way , following exploits hit four home runs three days two last night also delivered winning hit couple times angeles young season thanks michael usc
scott asd com \( scott barman \) subject speed games \( marginally realistic \) organization american software development corp , west babylon , ny lines 19 article zola esd sgi com archer esd sgi com \( archer \( bad cop \) surly \) writes cps edu cps edu \( michael \) writes really speed game umps need start calling strikes way used i'm talking making strike zone start knees go top letters forget strike zone general area groin lot less 3 2 counts quicker game tried '60 's people stopped coming droves , offense suffered immensely lowered mound first \( 69 season \) strike zone n't start mid 70s scott barman mets mailing list \( feed following shell \) scott asd com mail mets request asd com ! subscribe let 's go mets ! !
luriem alleg edu \( michael lurie \) liberalizer subject winfield 's spot time greats team organization allegheny college lines 7 article kto murdoch acc virginia edu drw3l delmarva evsc virginia edu \( david robert walker \) writes thanks numbers , portray true image many ways , accept first ones , second winfield ba really around 280
luriem alleg edu \( michael lurie \) liberalizer subject time best players organization allegheny college lines 20 article 1993apr21 1 tesla njit edu drm6640 tesla njit edu writes overall \( career \) 1 mattingly 2 mattingly 3 mattingly 4 mattingly 5 mattingly 6 mattingly 7 mattingly 8 mattingly 9 mattingly 10 mattingly 11 mattingly wanna go game sometime \? jesus christ boy , heard real time best steve 's yankee pride
luriem alleg edu \( michael lurie \) liberalizer subject time greats team organization allegheny college lines 46 article 1993apr21 iscsvax uni edu iscsvax uni edu writes article 1993apr19 alleg edu , luriem alleg edu \( michael lurie \) liberalizer writes article 1993apr14 iscsvax uni edu iscsvax uni edu writes winfield slugging average 480 career peak winfield 's peak slugging average average 129 points league average mel ott 's 278 , hank aaron 's 266 , frank robinson 's 304 worst years peak , still better winfield best peak year winfield 's best 158 average ott 's worst 164 average robinson 's worst 206 league average career 480 slugging big deal many right fielders including darryl strawberry andre dawson surpass career slugging average unless real stats make winfield worthy team wo n't even allowed water boy ! p eddie water boy career base percentage tons better winfield 's check facts andre dawson 's career slugging pct 480 's 's would like see facts probably done better 129 points slg 480 check important stats defense , heart batting average rbi 's peak , career , especially career , ranks top 15 outfielders time using bs make standings would like know getting numbers
luriem alleg edu \( michael lurie \) liberalizer subject time peak players organization allegheny college lines 53 article 1993apr22 princeton edu roger crux princeton edu \( roger lustig \) writes article 1993apr21 alleg edu luriem alleg edu \( michael lurie \) liberalizer writes article transfer stratus com jmann vineland pubs stratus com \( jim mann \) writes article 1993apr20 alleg edu luriem alleg edu \( michael lurie \) liberalizer writes interesting , gehrig bonds schmidt ricky henderson \? could steal bases , hitting stats even close 's uhhhh winfield \? henderson 's stat 's probably closer dimaggio 's think give numbers man ! ! ! ! ! winfield could whip henderson 's butt \? basestealing \? henderson 's time leader , good 170 runs worth sb lifetime winfield 800 sb behind , net 10 runs base average \? winfield 's best year \( 1984 \) 397 , nine points henderson 's lifetime oba lifetime , diff 47 points slugging \? winfield 40 points 're good , though winfield looks better huge winfield 's best year 1979 308 396 558 henderson 1990 325 441 577 tb iii gives henderson total player rating 67 , winfield 40 rickey much better fielder , n't buy henderson simply best leadoff hitter time , winfield n't best anything time henderson best leadoff hitter time , arguably winfield meant team henderson unlike , henderson tries hard amazing centerfielder rickey good , maybe better winfield , angry winfield though winfield better henderson lately check numbers , winfield may surprise 3000 , 500 homeruns \( wishful plays 45 \)
luriem alleg edu \( michael lurie \) liberalizer subject best first basemen organization allegheny college lines 15 article 1993apr22 ns1 cc lehigh edu ns1 cc lehigh edu \( chris \) writes article 1993apr20 102857 1 tesla njit edu , drm6640 tesla njit edu writes mattingly best first baseman history baseball always always ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! good keith hernandez heard talk learned good fielder talking watching keith play jt snow
luriem alleg edu \( michael lurie \) liberalizer subject time peak players organization allegheny college lines 28 article ucdavis edu ez027993 dale ucdavis edu \( gary built like villanueva huckabay \) writes \( michael lurie \) liberalizer writes henderson 's stat 's probably closer dimaggio 's think give numbers man ! ! ! ! ! winfield could whip henderson 's butt well , 're absolutely , completely dead wrong , thanks playing soon get office , 'll happy post rickey dave 's career lines fine players , henderson consistently better rickey due contract problems year comments \? considering 's basically picked entire team put back , think deserves little slack , think deserves 4 year extension 6m per year quickly upset people winfield henderson better player winfield come close though lets see rickey rest career people forget good 80 's , also great rickey
luriem alleg edu \( michael lurie \) liberalizer subject 200 sbs 200 hrs organization allegheny college lines 18 article odin corp sgi com dans fore csd sgi com \( dan steinman \) writes last night giants mets radio broadcast hank ted discussing fact 16 players ever hit 200 homeruns stolen 200 bases career \( hojo batting \) anyone list \? easy sounds come could n't mays , mantle , aaron , henderson , morgan , bonds \( dad \) , \? \? \? frank robinson \? molitor \? yount \? guessing 'd interested see whole list thanks , dan ya think winfield \?
wall cc swarthmore edu \( matthew wall \) subject question bosio 's hitter organization hi , i'm matt , i'm boston red sox fan lines 17 nntp posting host elvis swarthmore edu n't actually answer one bosio , walking first two batters , retired 27 straight back end perfect game many games including extra inning games seen pitcher retire 27 straight , excluding official perfect games \? instance know sure famous ernie shore game , counts perfect one according goons shore came game boston pitcher babe ruth got thrown arguing first batter walk shore picked retired 26 straight matt wall wall cc swarthmore edu hey , gotta job , ok \? april 6 , 1993 boston red sox seize first place
kkeller mail sas upenn edu \( keith keller \) subject mattingly organization university pennsylvania , school arts sciences lines 15 nntp posting host mail sas upenn edu add vein , consider range first baseman important thing imo best fielder bad throws seen scoop balls dirt , catch balls large bounce , take balls head , wide , etc ad infinitum gets , much time things save errors amazing give mattingly credit able keeping foot near bag \( yes , sure gets calls mattingly \) keith keller let's go rangers ! ! ! ! ! kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs ! ! ! ! corner let's go quakers ! ! ! ! ! weighing almost every weight imaginable life , surrounds blues traveler , 1993
rudy netcom com \( rudy wade \) subject bob vesterman 's plan generate fan interest organization home brave lines 19 article 1254 interlan com interlan com \( tony fernandez \) writes marlins tried something like complete failure opening day , instead 7th inning stretch singing take ballgame , young women field lead crowd pa playing 's get feet fans actually booed started singing take actually kind felt sorry girls kidding \? i'm stuck toronto skydome , idea 7th inning stretch blue jays song everyone gets yell okay , okay , blue jays , blue jays , let 's play ball ! wow genius take compose one , old classic women field lead crowd , crowd entertained grounds crew word ground used loosely , outstanding plays fielders
wall cc swarthmore edu \( matthew wall \) subject yakult swallows \( japanese pro baseball team \) distribution rec organization hi , i'm matt , i'm boston red sox fan lines 42 nntp posting host elvis swarthmore edu anyone idea get japanese league stats regularly us \? matt wall cc swarthmore edu article lab ntt jp , yajima nttcom ntt jp \( yajima hiroshi \) wrote tuesday 's game beloved yakult swallows \( , 36 , 000 \) hanshin tigers 001 000 100 2 beloved yakult 050 020 7 w ito \( 1 0 \) l \( 0 1 \) hr yakult , 1st central league standing w l pct gb hiroshima 7 1 0 875 dragons 6 3 0 667 1 5 hanshin tigers 5 4 0 667 2 5 hated giants 4 4 0 500 3 0 beloved swallows 3 6 0 333 4 5 1 8 0 111 6 5 hiroshi yajima \( e mail yajima nttcom ntt jp \) ntt network information systems laboratories , 9 11 cho 3 chome musashino shi , tokyo , 180 japan , tel 81 422 59 , fax 81 422 59 matt wall wall cc swarthmore edu hey , gotta job , ok \? april 6 , 1993 boston red sox seize first place
wall cc swarthmore edu \( matthew wall \) subject rules line \? organization hi , i'm matt , i'm boston red sox fan lines 17 nntp posting host elvis swarthmore edu well , i'm finally key official rules archives , , ask anybody official mlb rules electronic format \? trying save ton work , n't scan well ridiculous format 're printed thanks matt matt wall wall cc swarthmore edu hey , gotta job , ok \? april 6 , 1993 boston red sox seize first place
nswc navy mil \( john r \) subject pitching organization lines 37 article ariel lerc nasa gov , ecaxron ariel lerc nasa gov \( ron graham \) wrote article 1993apr23 bme ri ccf org , tknuth bio ri ccf org writes wow ! tribe gave 8 runs last night era 6 08 opponents hitting 304 front office excited calling matt young next week join rotation well , excited n't exactly mean happy case means , contract says bring 05 01 release need find somebody , someplace , something injured pitchers recover young pitchers get ready best get move ok , 's primary definition sue \) rg pain , lerc statistical baseball league pain , tomorrow 's heroes league i'm little worried pitching thing 6 08 even first 16 games season mesa \( sp \? \) seems settling pitched well red , rocket matched got chance watch play california wednesday pitched well also dam broke came promptly 6 1 \( 3 run homer snow \? \) heard guys espn say 7 tribe 's top 10 prospects pitchers anyone like post guys \? tribe espn tonight oakland john r always expect worst nswc navy mil join cleveland sports fan society
nlu xenon stanford edu \( nelson lu \) subject barry bonds batting 4th \? organization computer science department , stanford university lines 37 article car apple com chuq apple com \( chuq von rospach \) writes punjabi leland stanford edu \( sanjeev punjabi \) writes evidence working take look standings 's real easy get focussed forget giants happen first place 's working , n't screw changing things , think ought different , reason toronto blue jays keep alfredo griffin , worked \? team winning n't mean everything 's right team winning n't mean everything 's wrong , otherwise \( borrow sharks' situation \) would say george kingston fired folks like argue theoretical details prefer watch teams win giants slip third , talk arrange batting order , think 's stupid focus 's wrong , simple fact working , 's late problem fixing something 's working , may anything left fix mostly , though , giants winning , frankly , long continues , 's rather silly second guess strategy evidently , folks would rather right first , blue jays simply perfect last year nothing could done improved team go california angels ! nelson lu \( claudius leland stanford edu \)
cbnewsl cb att com \( jon k lyons \) subject john franco organization bell laboratories holmdel , nj distribution na lines 16 jason lee asks 's john franco \? mets hardly using heard completely recovered , i'm sure must heard wrong arm still sore n't gone dl , may treating day day situation doctors thought ready , throw colorado , arm n't strain throwing every day , 's quite ready pitch full strength yet \( based interview gave wfan ny radio thursday , 4 23 \) jon lyons jon k lyons att com bell laboratories att ! jon k lyons
organization queen 's university kingston qucdn queensu ca subject hbp \? bb \? big cat \? distribution na gap caltech edu 1993apr22 adobe com lines 15 original poster wanted know big cat looked also saturday game montreal \( apr 17 \) rockies 9 1 n't paid much attention since left expos stance seemed much different stands erect open , left foot pointing 3rd base i'm wondering recent change stance \? andres one glaring weakness hitter could always fooled curve ball low away indeed new stance , maybe fooled easily \? patience , dennis martinez definitely good stuff pitches andres , hardly fault drilling \( ! \) andres generally start hot cold \? take may pitchers confidence curve ball low away \? roger
rdetweil boi hp com \( richard detweiler \) subject cards mailing list update distribution usa organization hewlett packard boise printer division lines 9 wanted let people e mailed possible cardinals mailing list n't able get ok host list someone else \( many thanks bob netherton helpful info dick detweiler
rudy netcom com \( rudy wade \) subject bases loaded walk gives reds win 12 organization home brave lines 113 article 1993apr23 6509 cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) writes article 230 netcom com mss netcom com \( mark singer \) writes quoted future reference shown consistent past overall performance , l r splits , even matching hitting pitching styles give advantage used properly predicting future , next ab predicting sabo likely get hit samuel believed one two things 1 \) sabo likely samuel get hit 2 \) good would done long run leaving sabo regardless expectation actual outcome fact n't know perez mind left sabo supporting swap , predicting opposite fact , n't think anyone claiming predict future , particular future event believe certain trends due cause \( whether identified cause \) therefore continue dismissing work i'm stating opinion saying work renders opinion contrary invalid , retention opinion kind insult work well , yes aware existance claim incapable understanding \( though suspect simply unwilling \) yet rather forcefully state opposite n't seem think work worth reading \( yet obviously feel topic important \) 'd say insulting think seeing insults people 's opinions kind silly , mark n't call total idiot , call work stupid , simply stated n't change opinion subject say consistent skill said indicator performance certain set circumstances right ! beef proven indicator future performance circumstances least none 've able come know indicator future performance , please let us secret player hits better tuesdays always , mark believes might indication hit tuesday better next season well , would respond way \? point might admit variable might known \( knows guy every monday night \? maybe sees sports shrink tuesday mornings , vitamin b shots monday nights \? \) something 's true one guy n't mean meaningful correlation entire league days week , n't mean ca n't make predictions based particular player believe season 's end chris sabo 's batting average clutch situations significantly lower batting average non clutch situations ca n't prove happen , guess 'll wait see simply prediction chris sabo year \? prediction batters , past years , hit \( xxx amount \? \) worse clutch overall \? see prediction one player n't see anything batters 's another one 1989 1991 joe carter 's batting average clutch situations significantly batting average non clutch situations year presume think random i'm going get case analysis sure , find somebody hit poorly '89 '91 hit poorly '92 well also find hit poorly '89 '91 hit well '92 's exactly mark trying though find hitters correlation ask whether make predictions hitters based past performance major league ballplayers makes think 1993 joe carter 's batting average clutch going high ba non clutch situations 's fallacy unless reason expect consistency , huh \? 's fallacy anything \? whether know reason correlation , ca n't deny existent , make argument n't think likely continue exist ca n't see reason exist run proves nothing give us reason expect clutch ba correlate one year next \? 've seen detailed study someone posted recently negative clutch would correlate argument along lines star player l r splits always see adverse condition late innings close game \( e opposing manager always bring ah pitcher face , manager pull ph \) n't see deny \) total idiot \? yes prove unwilling even consider evidence might suggest wrong , would say term fits nicely tell \? term fit \? open mind \? \? shoe fits , wear open mind \? rudy
macomber sctc com \( chuck macomber \) subject twins update 4 22 organization sctc lines 16 paul csd4 csd uwm edu \( paul r krueger \) writes article 1993apr23 sctc com macomber sctc com \( chuck macomber \) writes wednesday 's game marked first opposing left handed starting pitcher twins year \( rickey bones \) nice post chuck , made one mistake bones right handed pitcher however , hrbek 's grand slam came lloyd , lefty mistake chuck
luriem alleg edu \( michael lurie \) liberalizer subject winfield 's spot time greats team organization allegheny college lines 27 article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu \( david tate \) writes article kto murdoch acc virginia edu drw3l delmarva evsc virginia edu \( david robert walker \) writes article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu \( david tate \) writes rf time , far anyone tell quick scan last night , looking players peak comparable better winfield quick n dirty subjective judgement , could make good cases ruth , aaron , ott , robinson , clemente , kaline , , klein , jackson , , probably others knock winfield , comment consistency players awesome stretches good stretches , winfield uniformly excellent hall fame \? absolutely top 10 peak \? i'm sure top 10 total career value \? yes , almost certainly point taken winfield 's peak years anyway \? probably around 85
luriem alleg edu \( michael lurie \) liberalizer subject winfield 200 sbs 200 hrs organization allegheny college lines 47 article mjones fenway mjones fenway aix kingston ibm com \( mike jones \) writes dans fore csd sgi com \( dan steinman \) writes last night giants mets radio broadcast hank ted discussing fact 16 players ever hit 200 homeruns stolen 200 bases career \( hojo batting \) anyone list \? easy sounds come could n't mays , mantle , aaron , henderson , morgan , bonds \( dad \) , \? \? \? frank robinson \? molitor \? yount \? guessing 'd interested see whole list first , please watch line lengths everyone second , franklin rescue ! 's list player hr sb aaron 755 240 mays 660 338 586 204 563 228 winfield 406 216 dawson 377 304 baylor 338 285 332 461 wynn 291 225 strawberry 280 201 morgan 268 689 256 309 yount 235 247 208 253 sandberg 205 297 players marked still active numbers 1991 's 15 16th probably rickey henderson , listed 184 hr , 994 sb george brett , listed 186 sb , 291 hr surprises \? probably reggie , , wynn steals maybe morgan \( lot people \) homers kind surprised realize sandberg many steals , though n't surprised number 200 mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com dreams real last say life \? ellis
vxcrna cern ch subject jack morris organization cern european lab particle physics lines 19 franjion spot colorado edu \( john franjione \) writes valentine \( , i'm going roger maynard complete total dickhead send e mail insist details \) fact , 's complete total dickhead least 2 newsgroups \( one rec sport hockey \) since hockey season almost , 's back dickhead r bb fact going suggest roger take way discussion r football pro kind hormone reasoning standard canadian , hockey , would suggested r h would work important thread everyone involved use body part produce post \( brain organ choice \) g cern ch
stevet eskimo com \( steven thornton \) subject babe 's pitching organization eskimo north \( 206 \) 367 3837 eskimo com lines 9 babe ruth 's lifetime pitching stats \( selected \) 94 46 , 671 2 28 era 163 g , 107 cg , 17 sho , 10 6 rat best year 1916 , bos 23 12 , 1 75 era \( led league \) 1917 , bos 24 13 , 2 01 era steve thornton stevet eskimo com
stevet eskimo com \( steven thornton \) subject relative value players organization eskimo north \( 206 \) ever lines 16 kime mongoose torolab ibm com mjones fenway organization eskimo north \( 206 \) 367 3837 eskimo com yeah , morris knows win 's lost 18 detroit 1990 funny wins lot games pitches good teams loses lot pitches bad ones rings criteria success , teams would always tend repeat , eventually 'd team win ws every year sort like yanks 50s morris decent pitcher downside good , great , career toronto finish 3rd 4th year , morris rings , pitching staff destroyed season steve thornton stevet eskimo com
jmann vineland pubs stratus com \( jim mann \) subject time peak players organization stratus computer inc , marlboro lines 16 reply jmann vineland pubs stratus com nntp posting host pubs stratus com article 1993apr20 alleg edu luriem alleg edu \( michael lurie \) liberalizer writes interesting , gehrig bonds schmidt ricky henderson \? could steal bases , hitting stats even close 's uhhhh winfield \? henderson 's stat 's probably closer dimaggio 's think jim mann stratus computer jmann vineland pubs stratus com
scott asd com \( scott barman \) subject box score woes organization american software development corp , west babylon , ny lines 29 article 1993apr15 195452 scott skidmore edu jrogoff scott skidmore edu \( jay rogoff \) writes anybody figure box score abbreviations make absolutely sense \? \( least local rag finds way door \) must stared mets' box good 30 seconds morning wondering hell would n't make sense use \? 've seen also blame associated press official scorer balances official score card , copy give several people one person ap whose job type \( using template laptop \) transmit ap offices new york \( rockefeller center \) via telephone box scores checked ap 's news delivery services corrections , issued later person sitting front laptop shea \( whereever \) whose fault note ap puts boxscores three different formats one see newspapers first one last week denver maybe ap person denver \( remember , started mlb \) check tomorrow 's paper \( 4 21 \) see person shea thing scott barman mets mailing list \( feed following shell \) scott asd com mail mets request asd com ! subscribe let 's go mets ! !
scott asd com \( scott barman \) subject jewish baseball players \? organization american software development corp , west babylon , ny lines 11 article 1993apr16 blurt oswego edu ind25 blurt oswego edu writes believe rusty staub also jewish ball player rust staub jewish fact , think father minister scott barman mets mailing list \( feed following shell \) scott asd com mail mets request asd com ! subscribe let 's go mets ! !
scott asd com \( scott barman \) subject jewish baseball players \? organization american software development corp , west babylon , ny lines 13 article 1993apr19 princeton edu roger astro princeton edu \( roger lustig \) writes article jwt oau org bbs comarow jwt oau org writes dave kingman jewish sez \? sez dave kingman used take yom kippur days coincided season scott barman mets mailing list \( feed following shell \) scott asd com mail mets request asd com ! subscribe let 's go mets ! !
scott asd com \( scott barman \) subject new home bosox ! ! ! organization american software development corp , west babylon , ny lines 34 article 1993apr15 scott skidmore edu jrogoff scott skidmore edu \( jay rogoff \) writes 're multipurpose subject , let 's forget shea , designed accommodate mets jets first stadium \( think \) box seats rollers could oriented right angles baseball parallel football minor point shea stadium designed multi purpose stadium jets mind new york football giants moved yankee stadium \( grounds \) 1958 problem stadium management \( city yankee stadium 1972 \) idea get giants move shea deal worked giants yankees new franchise , new york titans , approached city using new stadium titans playing downing stadium \( cosmos played soccer 70s \) shea stadium tied world 's fair anyway , city thought would novel idea promote new franchise world 's fair \( like mets \) deal worked course , jets gone jersey \( truly good football stadium \) , mets saddled multipurpose stadium , 's circular , seats almost always far action mets announcers kiner murphy particular always hyped beautiful shea stadium , truly i'm impression says , means ! regular goer shea , bad place since 've cleaned place remember , 30th year ! scott barman mets mailing list \( feed following shell \) scott asd com mail mets request asd com ! subscribe let 's go mets ! !
scott asd com \( scott barman \) subject organization american software development corp , west babylon , ny lines 37 article netcom com mss netcom com \( mark singer \) writes disappeared immediately , however , strawberry went tirade man reports indicate used lot profanity accused man interference , therefore costing dodgers game shortly afterwards fans hurled food beverages toward man made catch dodger stadium officials started remove park , relocated another area interview game , lasorda blamed fan loss strawberry also went tirade fans stupid n't care winning l times columnists similarly blasted man made catch sounds like darryl darryl , tommy spending much time slim fast needs pasta fix , media usual charming selves sounds like new york like story ! ! \) saw replay wondering big deal \? n't realize folks la making big think , lasorda various media types sit watch replay apologize fan others questioned darryl concerned fan grand total 1 rbi first nine games darryl gotten good start , blame someone guess big debate continues responsibilities fan long fan n't interfere play see problems scott barman mets mailing list \( feed following shell \) scott asd com mail mets request asd com ! subscribe let 's go mets ! !
ragraca vela acs oakland edu \( randy graca \) subject tigers win pitching duel \( yes , 's true ! \) 3 1 organization oakland university , rochester , michigan , u lines 27 nntp posting host vela acs oakland edu cold , damp night last night tiger stadium , dave wells , david haas , bob macdonald , mike henneman combined 3 1 victory texas rangers highlights r h e texas 1 4 1 detroit 3 5 0 wells gets win , 's 3 0 era 1 , henneman gets third save three chances ken rogers started rangers gets loss relieved burns 7th rangers got run solo home run dean palmer 7th tigers opened scoring rbi single fryman 3rd , took lead good bottom seventh whitaker greeted reliever burns rbi double scored tettleton whitaker turn crossed plate rbi single phillips \( red hot \) third tiger run afternoon , 's another battle , bill krueger tigers vs craig rangers randy p toronto blue jay fans , thanks wells macdonald ! guys really big help tigers pitching staff !
daves meaddata com \( dave spencer \) subject geronimo pena \? organization mead data central , dayton oh lines 29 distribution world nntp posting host meaddata com article cronkite central sun com , hawkwind central sun com \( bob netherton \) writes article 1993apr20 1 eagle wesleyan edu , eagle wesleyan edu writes hey 've noticed luis alicea starting 2nd cardinals instead geronimo pena pena hurt , benched poor performance \? anyone know \? quick start , pena stuck rut torre gave alicea start try get pena whatever funk worked past worked pena went 3 3 last night colorado dave spencer mead data central , ohio oooo g daves meaddata com g gg oooo ttt rrr iii bbb eee \) r r b b e \( \( \) rrr bbb eee \( \) rr b b e r r iii bbb eee
pablo jhunix hcf jhu edu \( pablo iglesias \) subject speed games \( marginally realistic \) organization johns hopkins university , baltimore , md , usa lines 22 nntp posting host jhunix hcf jhu edu article mit edu mit edu \( ed \) writes article 1993apr20 vfl paramax com davidm gvls2 vfl paramax com \( david madden \) writes another pair suggestions 1 remove balk rule runners responsibility stay safe matter pitcher quite honestly , one ridiculous consider following scenario runner third pitcher starts throw home , runner takes home batter squares around bunt suicide squeeze pitcher , seeing , throw home , stops mid action puts runner run balk rule prevents happening believe , actually happened oba \( ontario baseball association \) game milton , ontario batter amazement , umpire missed 12 years played ball , worst piece umpiring ever saw pablo iglesias pi ruth ece jhu edu
jxu black clarku edu \( dark wing duck ! ! \) subject bosox win ! \( 5 2 seattle \) organization clark university \( worcester , \) lines 8 last night , boston red sox win 11 games 14 games beating seattle 5 2 roger clemson pitch dominate walked least 6 man first 6 greenwell hit homeruns red sox prevail think game must win red sox seattle , considering darwin faced seattle ace randy johnson tonight
bnr ca \( barry walker \) subject jack morris nntp posting host organization bell northern research lines 36 article 1993apr19 024222 11181 newshub ariel yorku ca cs902043 ariel yorku ca \( shawn luddington \) writes acker get ring \? would say even believe acker got ring wife married blue jays strong offense \? n't tell morris magical ability cause offensive players score runs n't know guys keep bickering morris stats show mediocre pitcher best \( year another case \) , happened win 21 games saw many games last year , pitch good games crap clutch pitcher nonsense , constantly giving go ahead runs 6 8th innings \( clutch innings \) jays would somehow scrape win another major factor 21 wins , cito 'i dont realize gaston would leave morris ever , therefore giving many chances win games \( believe major reason 21 games last year \) barry walker bnr ottawa canada opinions
epas utoronto ca \( stephen \) subject rusty 's religion organization university toronto epas nntp posting host epas utoronto ca lines 4 recall kieth , rusty devout roman catholic kieth rusty would shea everyday sunday , rusty would go mass sc
klinker itd nrl navy mil \( eric klinker \) subject best homeruns organization naval research lab , washington , dc distribution rec lines 7 best one saw last year willie mcgee matthews \( think \? \) phillie fierce line drive still rising hit second deck facade vet willie mcgee one homerun last year eric
prism gatech edu \( michael j \) subject baseball spanish organization georgia institute technology lines 15 article bu edu icop csa bu edu \( antonio pera \) writes recently , heard red sox spanish speaking radio station thought unreal red sox spanish \? anyway , want find widespread \? ny native , know spanish think la , sd , texas fla spanish spanish speaking networks local braves day games broadcast spanish station called la \( station daytime liscence \) , michael j georgia institute technology , atlanta georgia , 30332 uucp ! decvax , hplabs , ncar , purdue , rutgers ! gatech ! prism ! internet prism gatech edu
tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) subject bosox win ! \( 5 2 seattle \) organization cornell univ cs dept , ithaca ny 14853 lines 17 article jxu black clarku edu jxu black clarku edu \( dark wing duck ! ! \) writes last night , boston red sox win 11 games 14 games beating seattle 5 2 roger clemson pitch dominate walked least 6 man first 6 fair walk 6 batters 6 1 ip also allowed three hits , none extra bases one run pretty good outing , told think game must win red sox seattle , considering darwin faced seattle ace randy johnson tonight thing must win game early season always hope darwin pitches well ! cheers , valentine
mizar usc edu \( dodger \) subject todd update organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 8 nntp posting host mizar usc edu according article la times , todd ready come dl list friday sounds like another set back come back present , stopped throwing ball supposedly , velocity n't sound like particular time table point back dodger
cuz chaos cs brandeis edu \( cousin \) subject hbp \? bb \? big cat \? organization knows lines 14 stevet eskimo com \( steven thornton \) writes official mlb formula obp \( hits plus walks plus hit pitch \) divided \( bats plus walks plus hit pitch plus sacrifice flies \) sac errors effect source total baseball \( sure might error recorded , example , ground ball , ie batter would otherwise , officially bat 's type error \( greenwell lets single go \) , n't effect obp , errors counted cuz
sbp002 acad drake edu subject wounded redbirds lines 1 nntp posting host acad drake edu organization drake university , des moines , iowa , usa anyone know status jeffries arocha \?
king cogsci ucsd edu \( jonathan king \) subject jeff king suck \( \) \? \( second guessing pirates \) summary jeff king walking \? ! \? yikes ! distribution na organization university california , san diego lines 30 nntp posting host cogsci ucsd edu ken transarc com writes i'm still hoping 500 season bucs really wished would keep doug around actually , hoping barry bonds oh well p jeff king still sucks check \( latest mcweekly \) ba slg obp hr rbi jeff king 234 277 357 0 4 jose lind 323 484 344 0 5 first , jeff like 5 hits last two games , walked yet sorry ken , jeff king power , means slg wo n't 300 , walks way increase real , jeff king average nl third baseman 1993 jose lind , hand , still n't walk , clearly n't 320 hitter bet wo n't getting extra bases either everybody starts pulling lind shift seeing nl predictions sent buffalo released outright \? , although since lavalliere weirdness , nothing would really surprise jeff king currently top 10 league walks something jking
pcollac pyrnova mis pyramid com \( paul collacchi \) subject geronimo pena \? reply pcollac pyrnova mis pyramid com \( paul collacchi \) distribution world organization pyramid technologies , mt view , california lines 32 article meaddata meaddata com , daves meaddata com \( dave spencer \) writes article cronkite central sun com , hawkwind central sun com \( bob netherton \) writes article 1993apr20 1 eagle wesleyan edu , eagle wesleyan edu writes hey 've noticed luis alicea starting 2nd cardinals instead geronimo pena pena hurt , benched poor performance \? anyone know \? quick start , pena stuck rut torre gave alicea start try get pena whatever funk worked past worked pena went 3 3 last night colorado without opening flame war , would like question notion sitting rested player real effect long term performance sure , man tired needs real rest , taking break might constructive act perhaps man mentally strained , sitting might help extent helps relax would like suggest long run , players slump , probably irrelevant paul collacchi
baseball catch fever scd ucar edu \( gregg walters \) subject hbp \? bb \? big cat \? organization scientific computing divison ncar boulder , co distribution na lines 29 article rec sport baseball , qucdn queensu ca \( roger \) wrote original poster wanted know big cat looked also saturday game montreal \( apr 17 \) rockies 9 1 n't paid much attention since left expos stance seemed much different stands erect open , left foot pointing 3rd base i'm wondering recent change stance \? andres one glaring weakness hitter could always fooled curve ball low away indeed new stance , maybe fooled easily \? yes , stance new baylor batting coach st louis last year , , manager , continuing work maybe andres weak left eye open stance gives better look ball maybe simply improving mechanics dunno change seems enabled hit ball well 5 years ago changed gregg baseball ncar ucar edu cr cr colorado rockies
organization university notre dame office univ computing rvesterm vma cc nd edu subject jack morris 1993apr18 cs cornell edu 1993apr19 024222 11181 newshub ariel yorku ca 1993apr19 cs cornell edu 1993apr19 ramsey cs laurentian ca sdcc12 ucsd edu 1993apr20 ramsey cs laurentian ca lines 20 article 1993apr20 ramsey cs laurentian ca , maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) says say one player better another able say ab player 's team would played better player b lineup sheer speculation impossible ascertain take , er , logical conclusion , impossible ascertain whether better hitter roberto alomar , better pitcher juan guzman , better center fielder devon white , blue jays , really prove would n't world series 1991 1992 \? thank , mister maynard , faith prowess , assure faith misplaced bob vesterman
organization university notre dame office univ computing rvesterm vma cc nd edu subject usa mcweekly stats 93108 vma cc nd edu 1993apr20 mnemosyne cs du edu lines 36 article 1993apr20 mnemosyne cs du edu , gspira nyx cs du edu \( greg spira \) says rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes article franjion spot colorado edu , franjion spot colorado edu \( john franjione \) says also , impression reading group bill james elias bunch money grubbing jerks whose mission charge much baseball statistical info bill james \? yeah sure bill james players rating book \? uh , bill james n't sell statistics sells books statistics , business providing stats like elias , stats , howe , baseball workshop etc greg funny , seems stats major league minor league , nothing collections statistics , authored bill james stats inc \( howe , minor league handbook \) sure 1993 bill james player ratings book qualifies book statistics , elias analyst statistics book analyst contains stats , sure , also contains dialogue finally , point word statistics money grubbing n't see anyone looked bill james player ratings book cannot consider money grubbing bob vesterman
organization university notre dame office univ computing rvesterm vma cc nd edu subject bob vesterman 's plan generate fan interest lines 39 owners whining baseball popular among large enough portion population , suggested various remedies , shortening game trying convince us accurate description , essentially , laid back game forget lame ideas new exciting two point plan generate interest baseball among masses point one sex point two violence let 's face , sex violence things sell america 's implement game sex cheerleaders , cheerleaders , cheerleaders dancing top bringing hot dogs umps seventh inning stretch running stands \( south bend white sox actually \) violence baseball players utter boys pitcher beans batter , empty called bench clearing brawl everybody stands looks stand , stand , stand look , look , look ho , hum , come running reach fight , stand , anybody coming bench throw least one punch suspended fined , fight outfield , waste time energy running infield football sex , violence basketball sex , violence hockey violence baseball da da ! yawn bob vesterman
organization university notre dame office univ computing rvesterm vma cc nd edu subject yankee thoughts lines 38 article 1993apr20 clam com , sam steamer clam com \( sam mandelbaum \) says yes everyone seems agreement yankees finally moving right direction finish 500 year maybe even pennent race august however , would take back moves 1 jim abbott trade ! terrific trade snow certainly better mattingly future , 'll defensible opinion abbott one truly great pitchers game today 2 wade boggs i'm sure one think 's good , pre 1992 boggs kicks hayes ass , 1992 boggs still n't 's bad , though , yankees expect pre 1992 boggs , probably get 1992 boggs however , 'd still play boggs hayes bam bam 3 spike owen full agreement 's much better velarde , silvestri lock better however , enjoy fact spike nickname helps yankees 4 danny tartabull strongly disagree 'd much much rather hundred games tartabull sixty games dion james 162 games james bob vesterman
organization university notre dame office univ computing rvesterm vma cc nd edu subject best first basemen lines 9 article 1993apr20 102857 1 tesla njit edu , drm6640 tesla njit edu says mattingly best first baseman history baseball always always ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! \? bob vesterman
mjones fenway aix kingston ibm com \( mike jones \) subject pitcher get save \? reply mjones donald aix kingston ibm com disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host fenway aix kingston ibm com organization ibm aix esa development , kingston ny lines 43 edu writes article 1993apr23 newshub ariel yorku ca , cs902060 ariel yorku ca \( geoffrey e dias \) writes subject line says rule qualifies pitcher making save \? imho untrustworthy , silly stat , today 's rules , baseball understanding qualify save pitcher cannot pitch three innings potential tying run must least appear deck circle also , lead pitcher enters cannot three runs phenomenon known around work ready fire aim astounded number times people post strong opinions things n't understand publicly admit understanding fact , 's plausible argument saves rational stat wins record , two ways reliever get save must finish game either 1 entered game tying run base , bat , deck 2 pitched least three innings effectively pitcher may get win save game believe official scorers must assert authority determining winners etc instance , pitcher come ninth lead , blow lead , fall behind , team come back next half inning earn win pitcher earned win , way argument wins dumb stat , saves guy could pitch five strong innings middle relief see teammates rally tie score assume came start fourth left eighth teammate holds opposition scoreless ninth score run bottom ninth win third pitcher earns win middle reliever gets stat satisfaction n't support claim saves beginning post mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com conceptual integrity important consideration system design frederick p brooks , jr , mythical man month
woods ulowell edu subject pitcher get save \? lines 22 organization university massachusetts lowell article 1993apr23 newshub ariel yorku ca , cs902060 ariel yorku ca \( geoffrey e dias \) writes subject line says rule qualifies pitcher making save \? far know , save opportunity 7th inning beyond , batter deck either tie win ball game example bottom 8th inning clemens red sox leading 4 1 clemens givin hit , man first , batter , batter deck could tie game homer jeff russel came , \( red sox reliever \) , finished game without allowing tieing losing run score , would get save clemens would get win thats beleive works hope could help , cowboy
00mbstultz leo bsuvc bsu edu subject dennis martinez 's ! \? organization ball state university , muncie , univ computing svc 's lines 12 know 's lot talk jack morris' horrible start , dennis martinez last checked 's 0 3 6 era wonder finally showing age \? usually start season slowly \? know plans start tonight hope comes around would appreciate feedback concerning outlook rest dennis martinez 's season thanks advance , mike
sepinwal mail sas upenn edu \( alan sepinwall \) subject ugliest stance \( ugliest swing \) organization university pennsylvania , school arts sciences lines 16 nntp posting host mail sas upenn edu article world std com tac world std com \( chan \) writes ugliest swing sure think stance franco ranger wonder bat comes around time hit ball looks bad hey get job done tac ugliest stance time go oscar gamble man would practically front home plate order small strike zone ! \( 's lucky strike zone size n't determined big afro \) i'm outta like vladimir ! alan
tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) subject winfield organization cornell univ cs dept , ithaca ny 14853 lines 14 article 1993apr23 alleg edu luriem alleg edu \( michael lurie \) liberalizer writes better e mail address , mr lurie \? i'm afraid ca n't get short version work case , winfield yes , career ba mere 285 n't beat sixth year majors , topped since 1988 peak early '80s , included rather impressive seasons 's also scattered great performances \( like 1988 1992 \) definitely smooth career curve ! cheers , valentine
steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) subject bosox go smoke \( seattle 5 0 \) summary bosox still falling time hits nntp posting host thor isc br com organization long suffering mariners fans , inc lines 39 article 1993apr22 galileo cc rochester edu uhura cc rochester edu \( wizard \) writes jxu black clarku edu jxu black clarku edu \( dark wing duck ! ! \) writes respond bosox boasts \( e bosox win ! \) see , red sox fans never anything right , mind , huh \? get excited sox winning , tell us going soon worry 'll soon , say true fans sox fan think ive sox fan , sox fans true fans excited greenwell horrible johnson , cares , sox 11 4 \( 11 1 non darwin starts \) , mariners \? \? think sox best record baseball still , lost one , darn johnson quality pitcher quality mariner pitcher logged expecting see least one note chris bosio 's hitter , nary 'll take opportunity note red feet 11 5 town without scored run last two games even hit last night 's gem 's fans compare suffering followers new england 's long running tragedy , one winning season history something burden bear 'll take joys get 'em mariners two hit pitchers staff coincidentally pitchers beat red sox back back games jsh steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing data , sure cut uucp ! uunet ! isc br ! thor ! steveh bulls r hofferbert bell 509 838 8826
doctor8 jhuvms hcf jhu edu \( jason abner miller \) subject jewish baseball players \? organization johns hopkins university hcf lines 33 distribution na nntp posting host jhuvms hcf jhu edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article 1993apr20 asd com , scott asd com \( scott barman \) writes article 1993apr19 princeton edu roger astro princeton edu \( roger lustig \) writes article jwt oau org bbs comarow jwt oau org writes dave kingman jewish sez \? sez dave kingman used take yom kippur days coincided season problem , dave kingman always taking , yom kippur , easter , day elvis died \( 8 16 \) , entire spring training month , , 4th july \( games day \) , birthday \( ok , world series , never play \) , memorial day \( games day \) , guys , help 've run fresh holidays coincide baseball season i'm trying catalogue days career dave kingman \( least bat \) went complete religious calendar detailing every holiday every extant religion western hemisphere would appreciated truly certain dave kingman observed every holiday ever conceived \) , course ! scott barman mets mailing list \( feed following shell \) scott asd com mail mets request asd com ! subscribe let 's go mets ! ! jason miller doctor guy frank tanana 1 win \? ! \? ! \?
kmelcher rafael arco com \( kenneth \) subject juan gonzalez hr title real \? reply kmelcher rafael arco com organization arco exploration production technology lines 8 come back ten years look careers juan gonzalez vs mark mcguire , tell us bogus one 's 1992 hr title 'd say , juan preparing hof acceptance speech voters saying mark \? ken typing real slow e mail kmelcher arco com know ca n't read fast
doctor8 jhuvms hcf jhu edu \( jason abner miller \) subject ugliest stance \( ugliest swing \) organization johns hopkins university hcf lines 23 distribution na nntp posting host jhuvms hcf jhu edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 alan , 's another sepinwall writes ugliest stance time go oscar gamble man would practically front home plate order small strike zone ! \( 's lucky strike zone size n't determined big afro \) agree however , object growing early 1980 's playing 2 years mario esque little league , told since hitting , well , sucked , would best either walk , take one face team , yankee fan father would say , bat like oscar gamble career obp 550 oscar fun guy watch , pretty cool baseball cards helped become one best little league players history i'm outta like vladimir ! alan jason miller doctor guy frank tanana 1 win \? ! \? ! \? !
jtchern ocf berkeley edu \( joseph hernandez \) subject mlb standings scores wed , apr 21st , 1993 organization jtc enterprises sports division \( major league baseball dept \) lines 73 distribution world nntp posting host monsoon ether berkeley edu keywords mlb , 04 21 mlb standings scores wednesday , april 21st , 1993 \( including yesterday 's games \) national west lost pct gb last 10 streak home road san francisco giants 09 05 643 8 2 2 05 02 04 03 houston astros 07 06 538 1 5 7 3 lost 1 02 04 05 02 atlanta braves 08 07 533 1 5 4 6 1 04 03 04 04 los angeles dodgers 06 08 429 3 0 4 6 lost 1 03 03 03 05 san diego padres 05 08 385 3 5 4 6 lost 1 03 04 02 04 colorado rockies 04 08 333 4 0 4 6 lost 2 03 03 01 05 cincinnati reds 04 09 308 4 5 3 7 2 02 04 02 05 national east philadelphia phillies 10 03 769 7 3 2 06 01 04 02 st louis cardinals 08 05 615 2 0 6 4 1 05 02 03 03 chicago cubs 07 06 538 3 0 6 4 1 04 03 03 03 montreal expos 07 06 538 3 0 5 5 2 04 03 03 03 pittsburgh pirates 07 06 538 3 0 4 6 lost 4 03 03 04 03 new york mets 06 06 500 3 5 4 6 lost 2 02 04 04 02 florida marlins 04 09 308 6 0 3 7 lost 2 02 05 02 04 american west lost pct gb last 10 streak home road texas rangers 08 04 667 6 4 lost 1 04 02 04 02 california angels 07 04 636 0 5 6 4 1 04 02 03 02 minnesota twins 07 05 583 1 0 6 4 1 04 03 03 02 chicago white sox 06 07 462 2 5 4 6 1 02 03 04 04 oakland athletics 05 06 455 2 5 4 6 1 05 02 00 04 seattle mariners 05 08 385 3 5 3 7 lost 1 03 03 02 05 kansas city royals 04 09 308 4 5 4 6 2 02 05 02 04 american east boston red sox 11 03 786 8 2 4 06 01 05 02 detroit tigers 08 05 615 2 5 7 3 1 06 01 02 04 toronto blue jays 07 06 538 3 5 5 5 lost 1 04 02 03 04 new york yankees 06 07 462 4 5 5 5 lost 3 03 03 03 04 milwaukee brewers 04 06 400 5 0 4 6 lost 1 02 02 02 04 cleveland indians 05 09 357 6 0 3 7 lost 2 04 03 01 06 baltimore orioles 04 08 333 6 0 4 6 lost 1 02 04 02 04 yesterday's scores \( idle teams listed alphabetical order \) national league american league houston astros 1 chicago white sox 2 chicago cubs 2 baltimore orioles 1 \( 14 \) los angeles dodgers 3 texas rangers 1 montreal expos 7 detroit tigers 3 cincinnati reds 5 milwaukee brewers 0 pittsburgh pirates 0 minnesota twins 10 atlanta braves 5 toronto blue jays 2 florida marlins 4 kansas city royals 8 san diego padres 3 cleveland indians 2 philadelphia phillies 4 \( 14 \) california angels 7 san francisco giants 4 new york yankees 7 new york mets 1 \( 11 \) oakland athletics 9 \( 10 \) colorado rockies 0 boston red sox 5 st louis cardinals 5 seattle mariners 2 joseph hernandez rams lakers jtchern ocf berkeley edu kings dodgers raiders jtcent soda berkeley edu angels clippers
doctor8 jhuvms hcf jhu edu \( jason abner miller \) subject john franco organization johns hopkins university hcf lines 30 distribution na nntp posting host jhuvms hcf jhu edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article 1993apr23 zeus calpoly edu , jplee cymbal calpoly edu \( jason lee \) writes 's john franco \? mets hardly using n't worry perfectly normal state affairs actually using , worried heard completely recovered , i'm sure 's recovered totally injury 's 's pitching rest arm enough get injured pitching 38 days rest fun dining diamond club shea stadium ay struggles every day anybody information franco , would appreciate could drop line 've quite happy drop john franco , bring back randy myers ! , better make bring back neil allen ! jason lee jplee oboe calpoly edu jlee cash busfac calpoly edu sf giants e pi 1 0 beautiful equation mathematics magic sad words tongue pen , saddest number might john greenleaf whittier 148 jason miller doctor guy tanana 1 0 , 1 50
mss netcom com \( mark singer \) subject bases loaded walk gives reds win 12 organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 159 article 1993apr23 6509 cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) writes article 230 netcom com mss netcom com \( mark singer \) writes article 1993apr23 cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) writes predicting future , entirely meaningless least meaning , n't know find say could predict future certainly ! really n't want get didnot debate somewhat heart disagreement say , imply , could predict future inferred comments meant , based rebuttal comments fact statistical studies demonstrated reasonable basis predicting future performance regard clutch hitting sabo 1539 452 294 259 59 228 samuel 1564 383 245 278 83 299 sabo clearly better hitter samuel yet would pinch hit samuel predict samuel clutch hitter sabo choke hitter right \? 'd call predicting future opinion sabo clearly better hitter samuel data 4 year period ending last season last season samuel batted 272 sabo hit 244 \( park adjusted \) season hitting 200 , albeit sabo bats agree career sabo better hitter samuel , also remind samuel better hitter certain situations sabo predict sabo would choke , samuel would get hit expressed opinion reds manager \( even reds fan \) would prefer samuel hit situation sabo reds manager time , assume would basis letting sabo hit rather pinch hitting samuel i'm sure basis would utilized prior performance would n't used particular aspect prior performance correct \? right would used aspects prior performance shown consistent past overall performance , l r splits , even matching hitting pitching styles give advantage used properly ah properly yes see even else equal , would advantage gained looking past clutch performance case , everything else pointed sabo please help , exactly , everything else pointed sabo \? well , yes aware existance claim incapable understanding \( though suspect simply unwilling \) yet rather forcefully state opposite n't seem think work worth reading \( yet obviously feel topic important \) 'd say insulting must say , aware publication email information regarding availability \? guess must apologize done extensive study , say , supply side economics n't mean insult never believe right path i'm sorry contrary opinion position also regret n't ability prove wrong believe season 's end chris sabo 's batting average clutch situations significantly lower batting average non clutch situations ca n't prove happen , guess 'll wait see simply prediction chris sabo year \? prediction batters , past years , hit \( xxx amount \? \) worse clutch overall \? says ! mean first , say , 'll wait see second much stronger statement fact , suggests rule test rule past data see worked recent years think agree rule n't work last year year , unlikely better year right \? second statement , mine i'm going get case analysis sure , find somebody hit poorly '89 '91 hit poorly '92 well also find hit poorly '89 '91 hit well '92 well , actually , n't yet i'm finished looking , n't yet found someone hit significantly overall batting average clutch situations years 1989 91 , reversed relationship 1992 's fallacy unless reason expect consistency , run proves nothing give us reason expect clutch ba correlate one year next \? 've seen detailed study n't expect correlate nope sorry interested reason expect chris sabo 's ability hit clutch correlate one year next , think could interested reason expect joe carter 's ability hit clutch correlate one year next , think could 're interested , think conclusions could valid could entire baseball population ca n't stupid reference statement stupid \( n't see deny \) total idiot \? yes prove unwilling even consider evidence might suggest wrong , would say term fits nicely problem believe accept work believe trying predict future clutch performance based prior clutch history meaningless better coin toss actually accept work happens , also opinion certain situations , certain players , history superior inferior ability hit clutch might suggest reason history could valid projecting future player performance player chris sabo one player tell \? term fit \? open mind \? well , since defer statistical wisdom , think must open mind pose question beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
mss netcom com \( mark singer \) subject bases loaded walk gives reds win 12 organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 49 article 1993apr23 cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) writes article 4dn netcom com mss netcom com \( mark singer \) writes supposition find players consistently \( year year \) one end bell , might able make reasonable conclusions players \( opposed baseball players \) may root confusion please consider following hypothetical open mind note \( yet \) saying anything question hand suppose simplified lotto game detailed explanation deleted indeed , struck right heart disagreement rebut opinion , made analogy game chance hypothesis assumes lotto players impact selection numbers , hence ability win well , 's certainly true lotto absolutely nothing sport baseball start wrong path , finish wrong path repeat think statistical analysis prior clutch hitting performance accurate predictor future clutch hitting performance , however , think analysis prior clutch hitting performance may , players , indicate deficiency game indeed provide basis projecting particular future performance think chris sabo player beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
ugcs caltech edu \( david \) subject baseball trivia organization caltech undergraduate computer science lines 39 nntp posting host molest ugcs caltech edu article texdude cs1 bradley edu texdude cs1 bradley edu \( philip allen \) writes holds record career strikeouts playing one team \? holds record career strikeouts rangers \? \( hint nolan ryan n't either \) two pitchers 100 career saves two different teams \? player hit 300 career home runs steal 300 career bases team \? fair peeking baseball stats phil allen texdude cs1 bradley edu 'll post guesses trivia questions posted career k 's one team , 's ryan , perhaps steve carlton rangers , hough long time 100 saves department maybe lee smith \( least hundred , maybe enough either cards \) maybe , \? \( nyy sd \) , fingers \( mil , oak \) n't know homers steals dept article , \( mets trivia \) , could tim leary least losing teams , maybe beating 'em probably seaver koosman fit randy johnson 's hitter , think scott bradley , half old mariner catching platoon , behind plate night david
fester island com \( mike fester \) subject white black racism phillies organization usr local rn organization distribution na lines 135 article network ucsd edu king cogsci ucsd edu \( jonathan king \) writes 's many 's taste , means 've reached maximum depth thread 've cut things , nothing affect sense discussion agree 'll delete well fester island com \( mike fester \) writes king cogsci ucsd edu \( jonathan king \) writes perhaps give recent citation player mentioned \? thanks guess n't understand question trying imply accusations glenn certainly played much still , reached san francisco , certainly possible stronger elsewhere also , teammates making event , know player last couple years , case , believe mike lavalliere accused poor work habits general recently \( probably \) , released 's interesting nobody heard much problems important heard sanders called many things well heard called lazy given 2 sport phenomenon , would difficult label exactly means media detractors say things believe 's general phenomenon writers n't like , 'll find label stick matter find interested selection labels writers feel need act way \( much , either \) uh , original author 's point black white players por differently media , towards , gave highly selected list prove case name showed eventually dispute sanders ever called lazy media hmm , big ego , possible club house disturbance , etc good press \? , n't total extent press received pittsburgh , called kinds things including lazy spoiled local columnists , actual words used may shift around time expediency , lazy tends higher list non white players , least subjective opinion aside might interesting somebody archival study player descriptions color barrier broken , teams like red sox traditionally white nowadays , people think carl yastrzemski one blue collar , hard working guys , early 70s often portrayed lazy bum really hmm never heard anyone accuse canseco lazy sierra 've heard accusations canseco bad fielder , could great one put mind ignoring whether actually , dave stewart \( \) one vocal event , lazy least one poster last week fired major canseco lazy issue , think point best quibble , probably weaker uh , poster specifically stated allow first quibble , , state media portray canseco lazy person chooses accuse , post , make quibble fact , media around tend \( ed \) play time room hardly lazy , hardly quibble ever seen mediot portray canseco lazy \? fielding , yes lazy , bad fielder , think still interesting matter , think canseco 's colorful field get lots national attention , say , roger clemens well , 's least 've heard think one questions surrounds selective reporting said , say selective reporting hypothesis potential unfalsifiable , least us n't reporters , police , private investigators well , canseco involved several felonies , including high speed record , carrying concealed fire arms , course domestic violence clemens run bar canseco , well , cases , coverage relatively minimal puckett \? stewart \? jackson \? said represent non whites three anecdotal data points n't make interesting counter argument btw jackson talking \? reggie , bo , darrin , danny , \? uh , evidence offered anecdotal , objected counter also anecdotal \? seems like everybody ever batting title \( among others \) accused time caring stats good team also seems 're kirby puckett \? never heard accusation made puckett heard boggs actually , believe , 's another matter living minnesota , ca n't say whether line ever used kirby far boggs goes , i'm sure bring , since 's one obvious prototypes line quoted \( along ted williams , rod carew , many others \) uh , yes , agree boggs , rather specifically however , say everybody ever batting title accused selfishness ever , anywhere , heard said puckett pendleton , either similarly , brett , b williams , others daryl strawberry \? think plus minus refers born types , ie , butler gaetti , seem making argument anecdotes hand , argument jon says variety data admit problems generating lists non white players became \( \) famous religious political beliefs , names like butler , gaetti , , knepper , , et al come rolling others perhaps simply , except case born types mention mike
drm6640 tesla njit edu subject time best players organization new jersey institute technology lines 1 nntp posting host tesla 1b career mattingly ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
behrens cc swarthmore edu \( eric behrens \) subject babe v pride yankees nntp posting host swarthmore edu organization swarthmore college lines 23 babe pride yankees offer different ruth hitting home runs boy hospital historian explain history 's version story would n't put past either \( \) movies season truth little extra spice comments inaccuracies two movies \? eric w behrens behrens cc swarthmore edu 'd walk hell gasoline suit keep playing baseball pete rose
talavage sage cc purdue edu \( tom talavage \) subject baseball trivia organization purdue university computing center lines 59 article gap caltech edu ugcs caltech edu \( david \) writes article texdude cs1 bradley edu texdude cs1 bradley edu \( philip allen \) writes holds record career strikeouts playing one team \? holds record career strikeouts rangers \? \( hint nolan ryan n't either \) two pitchers 100 career saves two different teams \? player hit 300 career home runs steal 300 career bases team \? fair peeking baseball stats phil allen texdude cs1 bradley edu 'll post guesses trivia questions posted career k 's one team , 's ryan , perhaps steve carlton way gotta walter johnson washington carlton spent long st louis collect less 700 rangers , hough long time 'd also guess hough due length tenure though suspect bobby witt n't far behind maybe even jenkins snuck close 100 saves department maybe lee smith \( least hundred , maybe enough either cards \) maybe , \? \( nyy sd \) , fingers \( mil , oak \) fingers achieved 100 either mil sd , yes , 'd go guess otherwise thinking reardon better chance 100 min along \( would think \) easily reaching 100 mon n't know homers steals dept gotta willie mays fairly sure 300 steals career article , \( mets trivia \) , could tim leary least losing teams , maybe beating 'em probably seaver koosman fit hmmm leary really good point 'd forgotten well , nothing else , plenty ex met pitchers category could lost teams koosman , leary , , ryan , seaver guess best three guesses would leary , ryan , either seaver koosman thomas talavage purdue university , electrical engineering grad student grad school greatest time one 's life pay spent last 16 years becoming good !
peltz russell cs yale edu \( russell peltz \) subject pitcher get save \? organization yale university computer science dept , new , ct 06520 2158 lines 24 nntp posting host scorpion cs yale edu article mjones fenway mjones donald aix kingston ibm com writes edu writes record , two ways reliever get save must finish game either 1 entered game tying run base , bat , deck 2 pitched least three innings effectively pitcher may get win save game close , 's number 3 also 3 entered game 3 run lead pitched least one inning pitcher finishes game team , get win , satisfies least one three requirements , gets save rusty russell peltz peltz russell cs yale edu p box new , ct 06520
mace cc purdue edu \( unknown \) subject bob vesterman 's plan generate fan interest organization purdue university lines 54 article 93110 vma cc nd edu rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes owners whining baseball popular among large enough portion population , suggested various remedies , shortening game trying convince us accurate description , essentially , laid back game forget lame ideas new exciting two point plan generate interest baseball among masses point one sex point two violence let 's face , sex violence things sell america 's implement game sex cheerleaders , cheerleaders , cheerleaders dancing top bringing hot dogs umps seventh inning stretch running stands \( south bend white sox actually \) violence baseball players utter boys pitcher beans batter , empty called bench clearing brawl everybody stands looks stand , stand , stand look , look , look ho , hum , come running reach fight , stand , anybody coming bench throw least one punch suspended fined , fight outfield , waste time energy running infield think bob describing game mad magazine called idea issue , sure cover violence issue paul football sex , violence basketball sex , violence hockey violence baseball da da ! yawn bob vesterman
drw3l delmarva evsc virginia edu \( david robert walker \) subject speed games \( marginally realistic \) organization university virginia lines 35 article atlas nafb trw com atlas nafb trw com writes article jhunix hcf jhu edu , pablo jhunix hcf jhu edu \( pablo iglesias \) writes batter amazement , umpire missed 12 years played ball , worst piece umpiring ever saw sounds like fun topic slo pitch softball game , first base dugout one players hit shot first base line bases loaded question fair foul ball hits ground , chalk flies umpire calls foul give standard n't see chalk line response hit foul half line started laughing mark bad similar situation softball , bases loaded , weakest hitter plate hits line drive third baseman 's head hooked hooked finally landed ten feet foul ground , almost hitting fence side field umpire called fair ball ! coaching third , yelling move base ump 's position still fair passed third base team n't immediately protest 'll never know certainly n't going argue , since every body manage advance one base safely also time batted ball \( runner second base \) leg , fielded ss , steps second force runner first , throw first time umpire called triple play protest removed game anyway clay
lynch hpcc01 corp hp com \( howard lynch \) subject let 's play name game ! organization hp corporate notes server lines 5 san francisco quakes way , quakes nickname padres affiliate california league quakes !
boell hpcc01 corp hp com \( donald p boell \) subject rockies 5 8 organization hp corporate notes server lines 37 name pos ab h 2b 3b hr rbi rs sb e avg galarraga 1b 54 23 6 2 15 6 1 426 sheaffer c 3 1 333 boston 28 9 3 8 321 cole cf 43 13 1 1 2 13 8 302 hayes 3b 46 13 2 3 11 7 2 3 283 bichette rf 39 10 1 3 10 8 1 256 e young 2b 51 13 2 1 1 7 12 9 3 255 3b 8 2 1 250 murphy 8 2 2 250 clark lf 37 9 3 1 1 3 3 1 243 c 45 10 2 1 3 3 1 222 ss 7 1 1 143 ss 35 5 1 5 3 4 143 pitchers p 24 1 1 g young 3 2 1 000 totals 431 112 19 4 10 61 66 21 14 260 name l r gs cg ip h r er k bb era w l l 6 4 3 1 3 8 1 50 0 0 0 ashby r 2 0 11 12 3 3 5 9 2 45 0 0 0 wayne l 3 7 4 1 1 3 2 2 45 0 1 0 r 4 1 29 27 11 10 15 10 3 10 3 1 0 r 10 8 4 4 12 7 3 60 0 0 0 smith r 3 0 16 3 22 8 8 3 5 4 41 1 2 0 blair r 8 9 6 4 5 3 4 50 0 0 0 l 2 0 9 3 15 7 5 7 6 4 82 1 1 0 henry l 2 0 12 7 14 9 8 5 5 5 68 0 2 0 reed r 3 7 8 7 7 2 3 17 18 0 0 0 holmes r 2 3 8 10 9 3 4 34 71 0 1 0 totals 13 1 112 131 69 60 63 62 4 82 5 8 0
yajima nttcom ntt jp \( yajima hiroshi \) subject yakult swallows \( japanese pro baseball team \) lab ntt jp 1rb lab ntt jp edu lab ntt jp lab ntt jp lab ntt jp distribution rec organization ntt network information systems labs musashino , tokyo lines 27 reply yajima nttcom ntt jp 's message 20 apr 1993 23 40 27 gmt wednesday 's game beloved yakult swallows \( , 38 , 000 \) hanshin tigers 000 006 000 6 beloved swallows 100 000 000 1 w \( 2 0 \) l ito \( 0 1 \) central league standing w l pct gb hiroshima 7 2 0 778 dragons 7 3 0 700 0 5 hanshin tigers 6 4 0 600 1 5 hated giants 4 5 0 444 3 0 beloved swallows 3 7 0 300 4 5 2 8 0 200 5 5 hiroshi yajima \( e mail yajima nttcom ntt jp \) ntt network information systems laboratories , 9 11 cho 3 chome musashino shi , tokyo , 180 japan , tel 81 422 59 , fax 81 422 59
fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu \( eric roush \) subject braves update ! ! organization biochemistry lines 70 nntp posting host bruchner biochem duke edu article steph pegasus cs uiuc edu steph pegasus cs uiuc edu \( dale stephenson \) writes odin corp sgi com luigi sgi com \( randy palermo \) writes article 13586 news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu \( eric roush \) writes see game saw \? gant , reasonable , argued horrible call hirschbeck , correctly , nothing gant proceeded walk halfway 3rd base , lean bat glare hirschbeck n't subscribe theory showing people , obvious attempt gant hirschbeck left hirschbeck choice take control situation bottom line gant started dangerous power struggle hirschbeck team needed lost events saw 1 \) called strike hirschbeck , look like hirschbeck pointed 3b umpire calling strike \? thought 's gant asking appeal 1st base umpire thought hirschbeck gotten checked swing help wrong umpire 2 \) shocked looking gant asks appeal first 3 \) appeal first 4 \) gant steps batters box 5 \) hirschbeck immediately orders gant back bad move 6 \) gant ignores hirschbeck walks bad move 7 \) hirschbeck gant gant silent 8 \) hirschbeck calls pitch hirschbeck called pitch , pitch thrown , cox came onto field obvious trying get time called pitch , one watching 9 \) pitch called strike 10 \) cox argues \( could n't see came field \) 11 \) cox ejected , players everywhere 12 \) play finally resumes gant n't ignored hirschbeck returning made strike call fairly likely although suspect argument might gotten gant tossed altogether hirschbeck let gant step , whole incident probably would avoided listing pretty much agreed saw , aforementioned perhaps appeared differently ballpark personally , amazed gant n't get ejected 's cox 's called protecting players people would thrown everyone game , say 'd making baseball history even worst baseball , usually major ejected , everyone comes onto field 'd say considerably threatening game braves fri night anyhow , 's last two cents subject , barring outrageous postings try keep eyes open incidents involving hirschbeck think teams well hope eric
cmk athena mit edu \( charles kozierok \) subject bosio 's hitter organization massachusetts institute technology lines 26 nntp posting host electric monk mit edu article shelley u washington edu dudgeon opus washington edu writes pb6755 csc albany edu \( brown philip h \) writes watched final inning bosio 's hitter several people work vizquel made barehanded grab middle , someone remarked fielded glove , would n't time throw riles yet , throw beat riles two steps wonder many others watched final think vizquel choice make play bare hand morning 's paper \( radio \? \) , vizquel quoted saying could fielded ball glove still easily thrown riles , barehanded instead make final play memorable seems cocky , made work 's entitled guess still , 's kind stupid move , imo 'd singing different tune booted , next guy hit single stranger things happened \( hey , used big dave fan \) unfortunately , 's thing unearned hit \) cheers , charles
drw3l delmarva evsc virginia edu \( david robert walker \) subject speed games \( marginally realistic \) organization university virginia lines 21 article mit edu mit edu \( ed \) writes article 1993apr20 vfl paramax com davidm gvls2 vfl paramax com \( david madden \) writes 2 pitcher throws occupied base x time \( x 3 5 \) without successfully picking runner , runner advances base walked last suggestion probably increase number stolen bases considerably suppose pitcher uses \( n 1 \) n pick attempts runner probably stretch lead base , given extra pressure pitcher get right time encouraged runner stretch lead , would probably also result greater number think would workable rule , would probably best experiment another league trying bigs clay
cmk athena mit edu \( charles kozierok \) subject bosox go smoke ii \( seattle 7 0 \) organization massachusetts institute technology lines 11 nntp posting host electric monk mit edu article franjion spot colorado edu franjion spot colorado edu \( john franjione \) writes dietz parody data io com \( kent dietz \) writes oh , yea , chris bosio pitched hitter one minimum , two ever hitters mariner history \? randy johnson , june 2 , 1990 tigers charles
med yale edu \( michael locker \) subject yanks 's george speaks reply kwolfer eagle wesleyan edu 's message 23 apr 93 15 00 58 edt nntp posting host med yale edu organization yale university x news reader vms news 1 20 lines 19 1993apr23 1 eagle wesleyan edu kwolfer eagle wesleyan edu writes matt nokes 2 run single ron darling hit \? watching game yesterday flashed something regarding talking mark connor bullpen coach said something like 's mark connor 's fault bullpen horrible ! ! go ! ! george sticking non baseball nose baseball business shut george , spend money , get players leave buck coaches players alone saw quote flashed screen yesterday also , enraged anything george speaking complaining media instead proper people , idiot reporter provided george outlet opportunity create trouble supreme example media truly control situations local beat reporters know better stop trying one quotes boss ignored , 'd really simply go away , problems would avoided reporter potentially open asshole
csl uiuc edu \( jon \) subject question bosio 's hitter organization center reliable high performance computing , university illinois urbana champaign lines 16 nntp posting host grinch csl uiuc edu wall cc swarthmore edu \( matthew wall \) writes n't actually answer one bosio , walking first two batters , retired 27 straight back end perfect game well , 27 outs row hits walks , really , retired 26 batters row first game front end double play still counts back end perfect game book , though congrats chris bosio bad brewers could n't hold jon \( uiuc edu \) university
pica mil \( ariel \) subject yankees schedule organization w lines 4 nntp posting host someone net post yankee schedule \? need right away thank
giant wam umd edu \( \) subject yankee thoughts \( velarde , etc \) nntp posting host wam umd edu organization workstations maryland , university maryland , college park lines 54 article netnews upenn edu kkeller mail sas upenn edu \( keith keller \) writes real long good post yankee trades omitted disagree one point velarde yes , maybe yanks let develop , rode columbus shuttle way many times probably fault george , matter usefulness done , able develop good player deep career \( least n't think \) fielding horrendous 3rd \( maybe 'd good short \? \) , ca n't curve , think trips new york columbus back point n't care get rid , say sooner better , yanks velarde keith keller let's go rangers ! ! ! ! ! velarde n't columbus , recall , three years granted , n't full time player play 've always thought good bat might playing full time , n't around think 's new york ever since 34 hits 100 ab back 1989 , 90 , believe n't think gold glove calibre , n't boot around either think velarde given chance , could become extremely productive n't stats back , n't know defense would cost games , think could help year 3 hr already goes jim big mouth , get job done concentrates think situation believes potential super star , gets pissed playing think might realized something marlins rockies n't select yanks need worry bullpen right wickman militello bullpen \? ouch i'm praying bp return last year 's form chris i'm listening giant wam umd edu anything guitar god go yankees ! ! huff plays
lbr holos0 uucp \( len reed \) subject rule book trivia 2 organization holos software , inc lines 45 article 93109 maine maine edu ryan robbins io20456 maine maine edu writes rule 7 09 \( k \) states interference batter runner running last half distance home base first base runs outside three foot line , inside \( left \) foul line , umpire 's judgment , interferes field er taking throw first base key word rule runner n't running baseline 's interfering fielding ball throw fielding throw first catcher opted throw ball batter runner 's head , 's inter sorry , still n't buy 're certainly right runner merely running baseline must interfere play argument constitutes interference certainly cannot infer 've quoted batter runner must hit ball guilty interference n't posted definition interference imo calls one approved ruling go small print rulebook something like approved ruling judgement umpire runner , running left allowed path , caused fielder make bad throw , blocks vision fielder receiving throw , otherwise defensive team 's making play , batter runner shall guilty interference approved ruling runner cannot judged guilty interference unless makes contact fielder hit thrown ball absence approved ruling claim poor rules trivia question since cannot authoritatively answered len reed holos software , inc voice \( 404 \) 496 ext 16 domain lbr holos atl ga usa uucp lbr holos0 uucp
ez027993 dale ucdavis edu \( gary built like villanueva huckabay \) subject jose canseco 's swing 1992 vs 1986 organization guys heads , inc \( puckett division \) distribution na lines 29 g waugaman nac enet dec com \( glenn r waugaman \) writes gary 's list ten slowest bats baseball 8 andre dawson \? ! peter andre tremendous bat speed dawson \? bat speed great dawson trouble hitting ball right side left field line without counting 100 swinging \? bat speed never seen 38 year old man , much less red sox player precede \? yes , 's specific enough \? someone consistently pulls ball mean quick bat dawson 's release slow , 38 , may swing early , rotate hips hits ball left side time , swings slowly disagreeing peter gammons whoa ! 's never happened ! next thing know , 'll probably believe dave campbell biggest even come near mic , ray knight iq drained oil gary huckabay outside \? ! right pipe , kenny ! realize n't great control , dave net c'mon ! gary , styrofoam cup really plate 's foot right throw ball
prism cs orst edu \( ryan robin \) subject john wetteland , derek lilliquist , info please article flop distribution usa organization cs dept , oregon state university lines 31 nntp posting host prism cs orst edu hi , wondering anyone knew john wetteland put dl first 15 day period \? read usa today sports section surgery repair broken toe , wondering new thought letting heal another question , derek lilliquist main closer indians gone need know cause need find reliever replace wetteland far lilliquist ok information either players would greatly appreciated thank time ryan robin texas rangers 1993 ! jose canseco mvp ryan n robin 311 hall corvallis , \( prism cs orst edu \)
dennis g parslow p00421 psilink com subject john franco reply world std com nntp posting host 127 0 0 1 organization performance systems int'l x mailer psilink dos \( 3 4 \) lines 32 date fri , 23 apr 1993 00 03 11 gmt chan tac world std com wall cc swarthmore edu \( matthew wall \) writes , anybody know 's john franco \? mets starting small amount spring training work , \? mets really starting slow mike young job closing said franco closer give rest rush since need want franco get hurt return guy know like see pitch 2 lat 2 weeks tac well , said franco probably go dl tomorrow \( mentioned career minor warm body would go along forget \) also , answering questions rotation , coleman \( sd broadcaster \) said hurst gone month month half , finish hab later dennis dennis parslow better korean good troy , ny 12180 luck symbol ! williams p00421 psilink com
g waugaman nac enet dec com \( glenn r waugaman \) subject best homeruns organization digital equipment corporation lines 33 article senator bedfellow mit edu , cmk athena mit edu \( charles kozierok \) writes article 1993apr16 osf org dswartz osf org \( dan swartzendruber \) writes best home run ever seen came , believe , roger clemens \( sorry , val \) couple years ago threw ball incaviglia literally 's neck , absolutely hammered crap swing , clemens motioned new ball n't even turn around look , even get upset ball hit lights left field standard , 70 feet green monster \( 100 feet ground total ! \) truly amazing shot game , behind home plate next scout manning radar gun 1991 season winding roger n't best fastball , 88 90 \( contrast frank tanana , went low 50 one process striking phil plantier five times night \) 's shot would gone 've ever seen n't crashed lights \( \) say 100 feet high , roy hobbs like , bounced back onto field 525 , bo jackson 's drive oil boyd top back wall 1988 best 've seen personally \( sitting one \) glenn waugaman digital equipment corporation , g waugaman nac enet dec com
uhura cc rochester edu \( wizard \) subject mike greenwell mo vaughn stat help ! nntp posting host uhura cc rochester edu organization university rochester rochester , new york lines 12 dear anybody , rochester , ny , people look rangers penguins playoff game say , joke heard , hey whats , oh , even ahl , nhl , think e get red wings \( orioles aaa \) stats updates al nl stats specifically im looking red sox stats far , id like , could handle greenwell vaughn anybody please help ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! wizard ! ! ! ! ! uhura cc rochester edu
roger crux princeton edu \( roger lustig \) subject time best players originator news nimaster nntp posting host crux princeton edu reply roger astro princeton edu \( roger lustig \) organization princeton university lines 49 article 1993apr22 1 woods ulowell edu woods ulowell edu writes best player time pointless ca n't compare players different era 's course careful conclusions draw notice best pitchers \( stat wise 20 's 30 's \) best around hitters probably came 40 's 60 's huh \? 20 's 30 's worst decades great pitching grove , vance , dean , whole lot else best around hitters , stat wise , ruth , gehrig , foxx , greenberg , hornsby , cobb , etc played 40 's stat wise , 60 's hitters great number great pitchers equally great number great hitters fielders \( also , know \? ones consider great \? fielding , gloves much smaller early years baseball \) maybe hitter like sheffield 330 ba , , 100 rbi \( even though probably fluke year \) compared mantle pitching sheffield faces faster mention better \? sheffield also better shoes time pitches run comparison , lots things take account could said frank thomas said best hitter since ted williams , although frank 's defense suck well , compare ca n't \? saying ca n't compare players different era 's , want best player try choosing best players different era 's \? compare players standard era keep mind era era differences without throwing hands despair way reasonable basis comparison n't shown us 's un reasonable mantle sheffield comparison roger
subject speeding games rbd flash ece uc edu \( bobby davis \) organization university cincinnati nntp posting host flash ece uc edu lines 16 article netcom com rudy netcom com \( rudy wade \) writes feel talking speeding baseball games , like trying keep signal noise ratio high rec sports baseball matter much talk , reasonable arguments , always people quote entire article \( signatures ! \) make one line comment , reply woof whether stupidity , excitement bless us insight , matter said , always keep ballgames matter much might benefit game umpires enforce rules players managers coaches stop wasting time ai n't gonna happen rudy agree
steven advtech uswest com \( steve novak \) subject time best players organization u west advanced technologies lines 11 nntp posting host advtech uswest com drm6640 tesla njit edu writes 1b career mattingly ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! lou gehrig , ironman steve novak ban bomb ! ban pope ! ! steven advtech uswest com
sage cc purdue edu \( moi \) subject keywords organization purdue university lines 4 chicago cubs mailing list \? \? , 'd like join help appreciated
mzimmers netcom com \( michael zimmers \) subject time game organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 22 article 1993apr21 adobe com snichols adobe com \( sherri nichols \) writes reason i'm unhappy length games today summed extra 15 minutes game \( average \) al , extra 11 minutes \( average \) nl , i'm seeing fewer runs score , think seeing pitches strikeouts \( 1 game al , 6 game nl \) , walks \( 2 game yep ks n't denote slow game , either last night , sid fernandez mowing giants hitters \( 14 ks 8 innings \) , yet first 7 1 2 innings game quite also threw 119 pitches , leading believe n't number pitches determines length game , behavior pitches michael zimmers voice 408 996 1965 suppliers software developers data 408 996 1974
leo bsuvc bsu edu subject cub fever organization ball state university , muncie , univ computing svc 's lines 21 article kingoz camelot , kingoz camelot bradley edu \( orin roth \) writes cub fever hitting i'm beginning think chance year \( heck thinking \? \) sorry moment incompetence 'll ok really orin bradley u i'm really jester disguise ! hear ya ! , must remember indeed cub fans , cubs eventually blow , cubs easiest team national league root pressure know lose eventually oh well , suppose must faith , look pretty good , n't even sandberg back yet cubs '93 ! ! ! ! !
mzimmers netcom com \( michael zimmers \) subject barry bonds batting 4th \? organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 31 article franjion spot colorado edu franjion spot colorado edu \( john franjione \) writes n't understand matt williams demonstrated throughout career wait good pitches hit wo n't take walks 'd rather swing i'm opposing pitcher , would fastball williams hit well , know williams swing \( miss , least hit well \) low away curve \? matt 's problem really ability attitude n't 's got mind wants swing away , rather 's \( still \) total sucker curve ball looked 1990 getting better 's still weak point whether good bonds behind , net stat probably tell 's reason , thinks , might self fulfilling prophecy whether giants' lineup optimal knows \? batting bonds , team 's best hitter , fifth seem odd , 1 2 hitters n't exactly oba , n't giving much although clark n't overall offensive force bonds , seems better suited 3 spot assuming , course , starts hitting one days michael zimmers voice 408 996 1965 suppliers software developers data 408 996 1974
hhenderson vax clarku edu subject game length \( braves update ! ! organization clark university lines 13 ecaxron ariel lerc nasa gov \( ron graham \) writes think , everything else equal , 's much ask game shortened half hour cutting pitches , dawdling outside batter 's box , commerical time outs sort thing , i'm asking much know shortened half hour \? anybody done study determine much time actually wasted say , 's games \? heather hhenderson vax clarku edu
john kim andrew cmu edu subject new yankees mailing list ! ! ! organization junior , im mcs cit track , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 9 distribution world meaddata meaddata com nntp posting host po4 andrew cmu edu reply meaddata meaddata com hi , got tired waiting mailing list going make one send complete e mail address message 'll send confirmation yankee mailing list address john go yankees ! ! !
steph cs uiuc edu \( dale stephenson \) subject ron gant , , hirschbeck organization university illinois , dept comp sci , urbana , il lines 20 1993apr21 adobe com snichols adobe com \( sherri nichols \) writes article steph pegasus cs uiuc edu steph pegasus cs uiuc edu \( dale stephenson \) writes past , disputed strike call enough reason step batters box may good idea may even irritate umpire 've seen lot , 've seen tolerated time key words past everybody warned season began umpires instructed enforce rule interest speeding game see happening players , 'll post public apology mr hirschbeck , think case selective enforcement dale j stephenson \( steph cs uiuc edu \) baseball fanatic considered good look wise , especially overburdened information j golden kimball
rdetweil boi hp com \( richard detweiler \) subject start cardinals mailing list \? distribution usa organization hewlett packard boise printer division keywords cardinal mail lines 21 k would shame cards fans net go 1993 championship season without mailing list talk would willing look starting one except 's one little problem n't know first thing requires terms resources time kind soul could e mail particulars getting starting managing mail list , 'd see would feasible start cards mailing list thanks advance , dick detweiler rdetweil hpdmd48 boi hp com
gemini ksu ksu edu \( \) subject question era organization kansas state university lines 51 nntp posting host gemini ksu ksu edu cv hp com \( joe \) writes thomas \( informatik rwth aachen de \) wrote hi , i'm german mlb stuff since almost one year many problems occuring one era statistic pitchers say \? \? era indicates average number earned runs attributed pitcher per nine inning game thus , pitcher pitched 3 innings gave 1 earned run , 9 inning would 3 earned runs , thus era 3 00 compute era simply take number earned runs divided innings pitched multiple result 9 era \( er ip \) 9 think another formula era heard something last year im sure , im gonna give stab allows pitcher pitch 9 innings time benefit , cuz uses outs recorded instead innings pitched era \( er 27 \) outs recorded like said , im sure exactly , im pretty sure changed something sort earned run run given pitcher attributed fielding error specifically , error occurs represented third , runs scored error considered unearned runs earned runs also runs scored result players left base pitcher exited game examples two outs inning men base error occurs represents third , runs error counted earned runs pitcher issues base balls \( walks \) , leaves game inning completed , responsible people left base runners left base score , score result error , runs attributed pitcher left game hope explains things joe
ecaxron ariel lerc nasa gov \( ron graham \) subject game length \( braves update ! ! organization nasa lewis research center lines 43 distribution world nntp posting host ariel lerc nasa gov news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article vax clarku edu , hhenderson vax clarku edu writes ecaxron ariel lerc nasa gov \( ron graham \) writes think , everything else equal , 's much ask game shortened half hour cutting pitches , dawdling outside batter 's box , commercial time outs sort thing , i'm asking much know shortened half hour \? anybody done study determine much time actually wasted say , 's games \? oh , probably ms nichols given average game times \( average runs scored \) 1983 1992 \( nice piece information , ms nichols knows \? may listening , kill file \) numbers indicate somewhere neighborhood half run less scored per game , games taking 15 minutes longer something done n't done ten years ago , extending games 15 minutes ms nichols thinks 's pitches given increasing pitchers , would n't surprise 's simply pitches , though , n't think 's unreasonable think something done get ten minutes back get couple shortening time relief pitcher comes , couple still enforcing existing rules , stated posts thread \( related ones \) problem , decides whether time wasted \? n't seem think right , think , although heard one case favoring giving reliever thinks needs \( difference field pen \) knows \? rules get changed , maybe something n't happen change mind bet lot minds would fail thing , else nothing changed rg play better anyone 's one barry bonds , playing two movies
drm6640 tesla njit edu subject time best players organization new jersey institute technology lines 21 nntp posting host tesla overall \( career \) 1 mattingly 2 mattingly 3 mattingly 4 mattingly 5 mattingly 6 mattingly 7 mattingly 8 mattingly 9 mattingly 10 mattingly 11 mattingly 50 mattingly
roger crux princeton edu \( roger lustig \) subject bonilla originator news nimaster nntp posting host crux princeton edu reply roger astro princeton edu \( roger lustig \) organization princeton university lines 37 article 1993apr23 island com fester island com \( mike fester \) writes article 1993apr21 princeton edu roger astro princeton edu \( roger lustig \) writes say black , mean us born black people purposes discussion hispanic players baseball 1947 , one team 50 's signed lots hispanics went better local audience blacks black hispanics \? good question 's impression , backed evidence , general south seems exempt one hiring firing effect talking back 20 's attempts hire black ballplayers rejected commissioner others would hispanics stick around blacks \? n't know remember country special racial laws one group one group blacks national history man , better serious reading really , really doubt meant say well , mean say \? aside short lived exceptions japanese ww ii , blacks affected laws regarding slavery , jim crow , , military service , etc claim 100 , , come exception , fine cookie compared list , racial group put legal onslaught worth discussing length roger
roger crux princeton edu \( roger lustig \) subject winfield 's spot time greats team originator news nimaster nntp posting host crux princeton edu reply roger astro princeton edu \( roger lustig \) organization princeton university lines 43 article 1993apr23 alleg edu luriem alleg edu \( michael lurie \) liberalizer writes article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu \( david tate \) writes article kto murdoch acc virginia edu drw3l delmarva evsc virginia edu \( david robert walker \) writes article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu \( david tate \) writes rf time , far anyone tell quick scan last night , looking players peak comparable better winfield quick n dirty subjective judgement , could make good cases ruth , aaron , ott , robinson , clemente , kaline , , klein , jackson , , probably others knock winfield , comment consistency players awesome stretches good stretches , winfield uniformly excellent hall fame \? absolutely top 10 peak \? i'm sure top 10 total career value \? yes , almost certainly point taken winfield 's peak years anyway \? probably around 85 's trouble peak years \? excellent good , real bell shaped pattern 1979 fine year 78 80 merely really good yankees , 84 \( think \) best one 340 ba course , 1992 n't bad , either 's bigs since 1973 , one year intermission surgery though n't mix skills pete rose , 's like pete rose one way 's natural hitter winfield 's swing used ugliest thing new york , includes gulf western building sheer athletic prowess physical size made lot fascinating player watch , even obviously great one way able quite things surprising ways surprising levels roger
bnr ca \( jim dean \) subject rule book trivia 2 reply bnr ca organization bell northern research lines 56 article 93108 maine maine edu , ryan robbins io20456 maine maine edu writes week 's play took three days get us , 'll try anyway naturally n't seen answer runners first second one , batter hits easy pop fly third baseman \( \) umpires declare infield fly rule third baseman lets ball drop runner second heads third third baseman ball short stop tags bag runner safe correct call infield fly , \( batter \) fair runners may advance risk \( gotta tag caught , etc \) force , pop caught , regardless whether ss tags 3b 2b \( n't clear , \) , n't got runner \( b \) umpires n't declare infield fly rule third baseman allows ball drop throws short stop , tags runner second runner second third see rule 6 05 \( l \) approved ruling \( \) case , umpire decided whatever reason infield fly rule n't apply \( sounds like bad call , 's point \) batter , force situation created therefore , runner \( unless , rule 6 05 \( l \) ball dead batter safe , guess runners would advance ca n't really tell 6 05 \( l \) ball dead situation \) 's call \( \) \( b \) \? pertinent rules 2 00 definition infield fly infield fly called , runners may advance risk infield fly rule , infielder intentionally drops fair ball , ball remains play despite provisions rule 6 05 \( l \) infield fly rule takes precedence 6 05 \( l \) batter infielder intentionally drops fair fly ball line drive , first , first second , first thrid , first , second third base occupied two ball dead runners runners shall return original base bases approved ruling situation , batter infielder permits ball drop untouched ground , except infield fly rule applies jim dean \( internet bnr ca \) national capital baseball league mild mannered computer scientist phone president pitcher \? bell northern research , ottawa , ont booth legit hit ! 6 0 , 1 99 phone \( 613 \) 763 fax 763 phone \( 613 \) 723
cps edu \( michael \) subject speed games \( marginally realistic \) organization university dayton computer science dept , dayton , oh lines 5 nntp posting host cs utexas edu really speed game umps need start calling strikes way used i'm talking making strike zone start knees go top letters forget strike zone general area groin lot less 3 2 counts quicker game
rsf atd ucar edu \( anthony michael jivoin \) subject advertised , death organization national center atmospheric research lines 30 local rockies broadcast day baylor went bring relief pitcher graphic came screen sponsored pitching change saw another game pinch hitter sponsored times game rockies announcer duane kuiper setting strategy defense might use expectation charlie jones would jump discuss situation charlie , read 's beer advertisement leaves duane hanging duane 's strategy proved prophetic examples happen radio v making sometimes boring listen guess 's matter time player sells name budweiser , nike , etc n't think long hear nike budweiser drills deep left field , chevrolet goes back , back , 's gone ! apple macintoshes \( formerly boston red sox \) 1998 world champions ! ! ! back work , anthony jivoin national center atmospheric research rsf atd p box 3000 boulder , co 80307 p rockies fans ready marlins weekend
drm6640 tesla njit edu subject apology article organization new jersey institute technology lines 6 nntp posting host tesla 's ! apologize everyone might pissed one article mattingly said best first history meant fielding first baseman one argue
rstimets silver ucs indiana edu \( robert stimets \) subject strike zone width \( jose canseco 's swing \) nntp posting host silver ucs indiana edu organization indiana university distribution na lines 35 article atlas nafb trw com atlas nafb trw com writes huckabay 's counting frames bat speed discussion well , 's studying tape , frame frame 's biggest thing notice , however , strike zone become death union ! plate 17 \( 1 \) across , 23 ! call high strikes strikes , quit calling pitches 3 outside strikes 're balls ! speaking 23 wide strike zone 'd sure like see cameras placed major league park overview shot home plate available cbs ws , dream pictures would feedback device umpires see terrible \( \) calls tapes could sent league evidence bad ball strike umpiring tapes available evidence bad safe calls bases guess nobody noticed calls world series \( , fact year \) pretty much consistently correct remember rule says 's strike part ball passes strike zone would certainly agree high strikes called \( could argue point \? \) think called pretty well rstimets
tac world std com \( chan \) subject hey red sox fans ! organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 13 paula koufax cv hp com \( paul andresen \) writes woof ! , hate , sometimes get urges powerful overcome quote sportscenter ooo ooo hey , bosio threw hell red sox fan going say heck remeber matt young last year \? ick tac
edu tw \( lin \) subject stats question organization national cheng kung university lines 5 wondering whether official mlb stats includes intentional walks bb category \? lin
carson u washington edu \( judy \) subject tickets sale organization university washington , seattle lines 28 distribution usa nntp posting host carson u washington edu brother purchased baseball tickets texas rangers vs toronto july , unable get vacation days get anyone interested purchasing following arlington stadium arlington , texas , texas rangers vs toronto thursday , july 22 friday , july 23 4 tickets , section 103 helmet night 14 4 tickets , section 305 14 want , total 112 00 please contact e mail , directly brother randy 19 lane , il 815 672 brother would eternally grateful someone purchase tickets ! thank ! j u washington edu
roney sfu ca \( chris j roney \) subject babe v pride yankees organization simon fraser university , burnaby , b c , canada lines 25 behrens cc swarthmore edu \( eric behrens \) writes babe pride yankees offer different ruth hitting home runs boy hospital historian explain history 's version story would n't put past either \( \) movies season truth little extra spice comments inaccuracies two movies \? good question ! kind wondered one thought babe pride yankees , made think \) version may closer truth , b \) babe must pretty good gut movie even though scenes n't make look completely flattering chris roney \( e mail chris roney sfu ca \)
fls keynes econ duke edu \( forrest smith \) subject highlights organization duke university durham , n c lines 25 nntp posting host keynes econ duke edu article 1993apr26 846 adobe com snichols adobe com \( sherri nichols \) writes might suggest appropriate forum game game highlights particular team mailing list , rather rec sport baseball \? looked might see selected particular word , discovered line express permission , liberty , probability , possibility also said something polite alternative may presence probability , possibility certainly used partially explain word selection , 'd say purposes , yes , might fact , \( asking specifically \) next question , would mailing list appropriate \? n't get mailing lists surely n't get mailing lists teams seems r baseball appropriate place look information teams one n't necessarily follow day day intended flamage , rather attempted answer , posed post question bait bait bait bait bait bait bait bait bait bait bait bait bait ba b anyone lemur \? 's learn spell , pathetic \)
duncan \( nicholas duncan \) subject cherry help , nntp posting host organization mpr teltech ltd lines 49 article 1993apr21 alchemy chem utoronto ca , golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) writes article mfpirbo00wbli1ispc andrew cmu edu william k willis ww1a andrew cmu edu writes person rarely even seen cherry n't know anything , n't know whether area \( pittsburgh \) usa deprived broadcasts whether 's canadian thing altogether seriously , \? know coach one time , volume posts , someone surely getting steady diet somehow , question , deal \? secondly , comments read net merely flame bait , people actually take seriously \? gotta tell , see , really sounds like ass let know maybe i'm missing something complain cherry , wonder popular reply dick vitale john madden bobby knight joe howard john madden picks gary clark madden team lot , much better receivers much reasons cherry sings praises doug gilmour little guy heart yet one n't see string american posts saying john madden lost marbles dick vitale always promoting kid high school college outrageous statements americans expect canada would characters relation greatest passion hockey \? canadians similar americans culturally sports hockey , whereas americans football basketball baseball bowling gerald 'd like add think canadian hockey fans like kind hockey \( hockey promotes tv appearances \) kind think used get played old 6 team nhl 's kind old days , expansion , soviet series , gretzky even bobby orr , guys n't afraid take hit , nobody floated defensemen played defence cares probably never really existed , myth still around canada european game diminished people 's eyes personally , 'd like add get flamed , love fast paced european game think cherry bit idiot say missed living states , though entertaining , even end throwing popcorn screen 's stand misstatements 've made vice president dan quayle sam donaldson , 8 17 89 nick duncan duncan mprgate mpr ca
stimpy dev null phys psu edu \( gregory nagy \) subject espn organization penn state laboratory elementary steam physics lines 52 nntp posting host dev null phys psu edu article news udel edu tmavor earthview cms udel edu writes various justifiable rantings espn coverage several deleted way change espn 's thinking , even possible , complain directly anyone know telephone bristol , ct \? heh try rec autos sport faq always calling espn complain i'm sure could find number abc , many west coast viewers something boring hockey cut long beach gp \) find hard believe espn n't think viewers simply change channel boring game know , n't show nyi wash overtime \( \) , ! wanted watch baseball , could turned phillies padres extra inning game instead , went bed angry espn 's morning sportscenter today , still incensed \( several people seems \) asleep day contracts explained \? piece paper saying must show baseball game happens many businesses money commercials run baseball game business , personal video servant wife says n't go bed angry , last nite ! maybe put anger something positive example , saw ads new dodge espn kbl broadcasts write dodge saying thanks ads run stanley cup playoffs , products future love hear stuff like future willing buy commercial time hockey games , giving espn \( networks \) incentive carry games \( one example \) come people , great think , hockey big three tim known many names college marine studies call tim univ delaware newark , de know much hidden , o' tim ! tmavor pandora cms udel edu monty python holy grail
gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) subject pat burns nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) organization phds hall lines 14 mark whitten cmuvm csv cmich edu writes pat burns 'd throw towel wings dominated every aspect game trying mix lines dead end rangers found last year 's playoffs , 's late try line juggling point gld je souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go ! ! ! gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
bittle canisius edu \( jason bittle \) subject sabres playing well organization canisius college , buffalo ny lines 18 agree boston good team streaky put together great streak capture first place adams , \? lost home ice advantage least first round , might make would love see sabres win first round , even though bet bruins \( 12 pack \) oh well , perhaps start betting sabres often ! \) ciao , jason bittle \( bittle canisius edu \) \( k dough boy \) quote compute therefore , b
dwarf bcarh601 bnr ca \( w jim jordan \) subject 77 's \? nntp posting host bcarh601 organization bell northern research ltd , ottawa , ontario , canada lines 20 article 1r23on 4p6 bigboote wpi edu ching bigwpi wpi edu \( logistician \) writes need players wearing 77 nhl know one , ray borque bruins help would greatly appreciated believe phil esposito first wear 77 played rangers '70s season put rangers crest modern style numbers jerseys instead new york rangers block letters two colour numbers took 77 rangers already 7 \( hockey night canada made big thing , saying biggest uniform style change long time pittsburgh vancouver changed colours \) dwarf w jim jordan n't mean tell live dwarf bnr ca \( internet \) life 's tv 's work bnr speak n't believe jesus , 'd going hell peter heath
organization university maine system always fanatical patrick ellis maine maine edu subject 1993 nhl draft 1993apr20 newshub ariel yorku ca 1993apr21 csd newshost stanford edu lines 19 san jose get kariya ya know kind funny cause 've seen kariya campus sharks hat pat ellis p go bruins go umaine black bears 42 1 2 number 1 hockey east regulars season champions hockey east tournament champions paul kariya , hobey baker award winner ncaa div 1 hockey tournament champions ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! n e !
thomas stanford edu \( thomas \) subject german audience lunatic \? \? organization stanford university lines 57 article 1993apr21 ousrvr oulu fi , golf phoenix oulu fi \( jouko kylmaoja \) wrote watched game germany czechs wc today astonished behaviour german audience ! german team got penalties last period crowd went ! threw coins , extra pucks trash rink stupid \? \? guess canadian referee \( one bros \) gave german team penalty , n't help much guess germans proud nazi kill 'em everyone us germans sucks attitude seem kind attitude every possible sport \( remember european champs stockholm soccer \) really pisses ! mean every single german attitude sucks , seem understand anger german audience mean , finnish team played taking advantage ridiculous penalties ref called last period germans got match penalty 10 minutes misconduct practically nothing seconds german goalie got two minutes delay game shot deflected went crowd resulting 5 3 skating advantage lead deciding goal point , germans starting come strong also sick nationalism going german sports events watch example tennis davis cup match players often able play minutes , crowd obnoxious admit kind nationalism strong even stronger countries \( go us watch way present olympics television soccer crowds england finnish spectators nordic skiing events \) mean makes sick see nationalism world would rather see best team player win get mind favorite team somebody better plays attractive admit sports german national site favorite team watch \( german soccer team boring watch , example \) , reading posting , think level crowds criticizing easy talk \( nearly \) germans nazis nationalists thats kind propaganda people use germany true great danger arising nationalism germany experience people \( least people know \) also regard big threat trying demonstrate attitude ca n't look people human try put drawers corresponding nationality \( eg russians communists americans capitalists germans nazis , hanging around beeing drunk \) opinion , comment shows narrowness mind n't seem different nazis talking thomas 's time hate , barely time wait \( jerry garcia robert hunter \)
mjr4u virginia edu \( matthew j rush \) subject espn organization university virginia lines 7 actually , angry went away pens game pens fan central virginia kinda tough get see espn , play caps , cause 're close enough dc get caps games , espn switched caps , ! matt
filinuk staff dccs upenn edu \( geoff filinuk \) subject flyers without eric reply filinuk staff dccs upenn edu \( geoff filinuk \) organization university pennsylvania lines 65 nntp posting host staff dccs upenn edu article 1993apr20 btree uucp , terry btree uucp \( terry \) writes path netnews upenn edu ! newsserver jvnc net ! howland reston ans net ! usc ! news se uci edu ! network ucsd edu ! btree ! terry terry btree uucp \( terry \) newsgroups rec sport hockey subject flyers without eric message id 1993apr20 btree uucp date 20 apr 93 21 11 24 gmt references 1993apr19 ns1 cc lehigh edu organization corporation lines 47 article 1993apr19 ns1 cc lehigh edu ns1 cc lehigh edu \( kevin \) writes philadelphia inquirer posted following stats lindros 29 23 9 goals average 3 49 goals scored average 4 27 without lindros 7 14 2 goals average 3 92 goals scored average 2 52 think difference obvious he's dominant player skip yes ! become major franchise player bring flyers cup 6 7 years name lindros captain next year recchi geoff
karim edvard ahmed ka0k andrew cmu edu subject goodbye , good riddance , get lost 'stars organization senior , economics , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 22 1993apr19 julian uwo ca nntp posting host po2 andrew cmu edu reply 1993apr19 julian uwo ca first , anyone accepted western business school dork second , one person country 27 million n't think posts article , mean embarrasing canada network expressing feel thoughts someone n't agree , give right call assholes anyways , north stars shit ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! c'mon leafs whoa ! lighten , andrew ! referring western business school , specifically referring assholes writing obnoxious comments insulting state people minnesota apparent reason canadian , one friends attended uwo , personally n't want associated idiots wrote messages one thing , andrew season , leafs sucked pretty badly last umpteen years \( cup lifetime \? \) north stars n't shit team norris kea
filinuk staff dccs upenn edu \( geoff filinuk \) subject selfish hockey fans reply filinuk staff dccs upenn edu \( geoff filinuk \) organization university pennsylvania lines 10 nntp posting host staff dccs upenn edu tuesday , raining chicago , espn provided bonus hockey coverage seems though fans ticked ny wash ot replaced angels \? \? game people must realize baseball fans instead hockey fans u baseball game scheduled air advertisers money paid ca n't skip baseball game n't people chill enjoy whatever coverage get geoff filinuk
ccdb musica mcgill ca \( ccdb \) subject habs late organization mcgill university lines 11 nntp posting host vm1 mcgill ca quebec dominated habs first 2 periods roy kept one , although blow 2nd goal canadians showed third nords playing dump pull back time hextall made good saves really one lost first period nords scored 3 could 5 , plus another 4 2nd canadians dead meat , may take one 2 one tee jacques , next time might rest players forget 1st place , welcome adams division dennis
njs lahabra chevron com \( n j \) subject upcoming tv schedule reply njs chevron com distribution na organization chevron , la habra , ca lines 26 article hsdndev harvard edu , nhmas gauss med harvard edu \( mark shneyder 432 4219 \) writes hey , guess 's coming espn change \? playoff n't involve pens anything wrong espn games thursday pens devils 7 30 \( gary thorne bill clement \) saturday caps ny isles 7 30 \( tom mees john davidson \) abc game sunday pens devils 1 00 \( gary thorne bill clement \) eastern time zone pacific get kings vs calgary espn named 2 broadcast team tuesday paired tom mees \( play play \) john davidson \( analyst \) ppv mark nancy j , division n't know fact p chevron petroleum technology co g elvis working shop e p box 446 , la habra , ca beaver falls , 'd swear n tel \( 310 \) 694 njs chevron com driving truck scotty baldwin
ruf uni freiburg de \( benny \) subject wc 93 results , april 18 organization rechenzentrum der universitaet freiburg , germany lines 14 distribution world nntp posting host ruf uni freiburg de etxonss ufsa ericsson se \( staffan axelsson \) writes forwards 13 richard \? season 92 93 playing freiburg germany benny benny email ruf uni freiburg de disclaimer text reflects opinion ,
dvb ick \( david van beveren \) subject red wings organization sunsoft inc , los angeles , ca lines 18 nntp posting host ick x newsreader tin 1 1 pl3 f1hh unb ca \( patrick walker \) writes detroit 's going beat toronto 6 less ! ! ! granted , gilmour get hart trophy , lemieux look gilmour toronto think toronto , comes mind , gilmour , andreychuk , potvin ah n gilmour \? think nhl , comes mind \? gilmour \? gretzky \? mario \? ah mention mario \? said gretzky , n't really following along , said gilmour , true maynard n't even think selection hart deserves serious discussion group dvb
phoenix startide ctr columbia edu \( ali lemer \) subject nhl team captains organization columbia university center telecommunications research x posted startide ctr columbia edu nntp posting host sol ctr columbia edu lines 18 article 664 uupcb freddy ersys edmonton ab ca steven kipling freddy ersys edmonton ab ca \( steven kipling \) writes quoting cire trehguad cyt michael collingridge writes , subject , captain ever traded , resigned , striped title season \? team captain trivia would appreciated kelly kisio captain rangers left san jose ali ali procrastination lemer real green conjunction junction , columbia university \( nyc \) dress , 's cruel 's function \? phoenix ctr columbia edu ladies rock kind animals hug hockey player !
dchhabra stpl ists ca \( deepak chhabra \) subject habs late nntp posting host stpl ists ca organization solar terresterial physics laboratory , ists lines 50 article vm1 mcgill ca ccdb ccdb musica mcgill ca writes quebec dominated habs first 2 periods roy kept one , although blow 2nd goal canadians showed third nords playing dump pull back time notice nobody team willing take charge \? dominant defenceman would nice bad schneider got hurt reminds chris chelios sometimes speaking chelios , wonder serge savard feels like moron making trade also wish still corson rob ramage ice less useful bottle bench vincent damphousse decided take vacation , apparently idea demers playing denis savard checking line carbonneau savard skating well , one dangerous canadiens quebec 's zone puck bad nobody front time also notice defensive zone , single nordique gets knocked \? 's disgusting also lebeau \( , 172 \) getting pasted centre ice \( , 205 \) reply team , except yell penalty dammit , denis savard threw best \( \? \) montreal hit night knocked sundin balance denis savard team 's enforcer , 's big trouble someplace hextall made good saves really one lost first period nords scored 3 could 5 , plus another 4 2nd aside second goal , roy stand head third period least provided something look forward habs period , imo , guess somebody finally came along smack couple times second intermission remind game started 7 30 hopefully play way home roy made saves \( 'll ignore second goal \) , 's team dchhabra stpl ists ca p grant fuhr doubters buffalo 4 , boston 0 'nuff said somebody say dale hunter playoff \? 'd rethink position \)
joe13 pitt edu \( joseph b stiehm \) subject bruins organization university pittsburgh lines 13 come boston , hell \? seven wins row , choke \? 'd much rather see bruins wales conference finals vs pitt buffalo quebec , would interesting buffalo quebec ca n't put good fight , 'd much enjoy 7 0 bruins devils feel \( sp \? \) ah , well , maybe devils pull , maybe pens lose second round , , hope bruins meet
ubvmsd cc buffalo edu \( mr \) subject buffalo 4 , boston 0 defense ! ! organization university buffalo lines 22 news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host ubvmsd cc buffalo edu article 1993apr21 alchemy chem utoronto ca , golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) writes article 1993apr21 ncsu edu delarocq eos ncsu edu \( derrell emery larocque \) writes tonight boston , buffalo sabres blanked boston bruins 4 0 tonight boston looks like boston hang season , buffalo 's home record awesome ! ! ! ! great buffalo fans might get see revenge last year ! ! ! ! ! \) i'm glad grant fuhr never confident two wins takes four wins defeat opponent tougher obtain previous one buffalo good start fuhr proving fuhr bashers wrong , boston awfully good team gerald awesome home record , need remember 7th game last year aud 'd like see playoff games since i'm stuck buffalo ub , think boston n't giving easy mr
coulman cs usask ca \( randy coulman \) subject whl playoff results 04 18 93 organization university saskatchewan lines 74 distribution world reply coulman cs usask ca nntp posting host skorpio usask ca monday , april 12 , 1993 kamloops 4 spokane 1 \( kamloops wins 3 0 \) western final matchup kamloops portland tuesday , april 13 , 1993 games necessary wednesday , april 14 , 1993 games necessary thursday , april 15 , 1993 games scheduled friday , april 16 , 1993 regina 2 swift current 7 \( series 0 1 \) kamloops 3 portland 6 \( series 0 1 \) saturday , april 17 , 1993 kamloops 4 portland 8 \( series 0 2 \) sunday , april 18 , 1993 swift current 5 regina 2 \( series 2 0 \) whl playoff scoring leaders april 18 , 1993 player gp g pts jamie black , tacoma 7 7 15 22 andy schneider , swift current 8 7 13 20 valeri bure , spokane 9 6 11 17 allan , tacoma 7 9 7 16 dean , swift current 8 9 6 15 jason , swift current 8 6 9 15 cam , medicine hat 10 9 5 14 todd holt , swift current 8 5 9 14 tyler wright , swift current 8 5 9 14 mike , kamloops 10 5 9 14 jeff friesen , regina 11 5 9 14 rick , swift current 8 3 11 14 whl playoff leading goaltenders april 18 , 1993 \( minimum 60 minutes \) player mp ga gaa scott , portland 295 12 0 2 44 milan , swift current 497 21 1 2 54 trevor robins , brandon 258 11 0 2 56 steve , kamloops 341 16 1 2 82 mark , red deer 269 13 0 2 90 randy coulman , sc aries laboratory research assistant department computational science university saskatchewan coulman cs usask ca saskatoon , sk s7n 0w0
coulman cs usask ca \( randy coulman \) subject final regular season individual goalie stats organization university saskatchewan lines 103 distribution world reply coulman cs usask ca nntp posting host skorpio usask ca would appreciate someone could volunteer verify shots goal save percentage numbers , put stats archive site contact mail want volunteer individual goalie stats wed apr 21 09 09 38 cst 1993 stats include games including sunday previous date listed verified printed newspaper every tuesday n't print shots save percentage numbers , verified stats available mail every weekday sometimes weekends , i'm town get late game results send note would like receive stats mail questions , comments suggestions , let know randy mp minutes played , ga goals , shutouts , gaa goals average w wins , l losses , ties sog shots goal , sv save percentage mp ga gaa w l sog sv tm player 1 0 0 0 00 0 0 0 0 1 000 byron 11 0 0 0 00 0 0 0 3 1 000 har 40 1 0 1 50 0 0 0 19 0 947 mtl frederick 25 1 0 2 40 0 0 0 10 0 900 bos mike bales 116 2 2 50 25 15 7 1287 0 910 tor felix potvin 177 7 2 59 41 18 11 1879 0 906 chi ed belfour 1322 64 1 2 90 9 8 4 596 0 893 bos john blue 996 49 2 2 95 6 7 1 414 0 882 chi jim waite 3702 186 4 3 01 43 14 5 0 902 pit tom barrasso 3890 196 1 3 02 29 28 9 2194 0 911 stl curtis joseph 1817 94 1 3 10 18 8 4 858 0 890 van kay whitmore 1429 75 0 3 15 11 10 4 716 0 895 buf dominik hasek 3194 168 3 3 16 37 14 3 1354 0 876 bos andy moog 1311 70 1 3 20 14 4 1 629 0 889 cal jeff reese 192 2 3 20 31 25 5 1813 0 894 mtl patrick roy 168 9 0 3 21 1 1 1 87 0 897 har mike lenarduzzi 1193 64 0 3 22 13 4 2 522 0 877 det vincent riendeau 96 2 3 23 17 7 4 938 0 898 tor daren puppa 210 4 3 25 34 24 7 1898 0 889 det tim cheveldae 3732 203 2 3 26 29 26 9 0 888 cal mike vernon 146 1 3 30 22 20 2 0 889 nyi glenn healy 185 1 3 30 24 24 6 0 893 buf grant fuhr 152 4 3 31 20 18 7 1519 0 900 nyr john vanbiesbrouck 181 1 3 31 27 23 5 0 882 beaupre 193 3 3 33 26 26 5 1683 0 885 min jon casey 3261 184 3 3 39 28 21 5 0 886 van kirk mclean 151 2 3 39 19 21 3 1322 0 886 nj chris terreri 1433 81 1 3 39 17 5 1 686 0 882 mtl andre racicot 1939 110 0 3 40 18 9 4 947 0 884 que stephane 143 5 3 42 20 17 6 0 892 phi tommy soderstrom 78 0 3 42 13 7 2 691 0 887 pit ken 542 31 0 3 43 5 4 0 225 0 862 bos reggie 172 0 3 45 29 16 5 1525 0 887 que ron hextall 2253 130 0 3 46 17 15 5 1067 0 878 nyi mark fitzpatrick 227 2 3 53 33 26 6 2119 0 893 win bob essensa 96 0 3 60 15 10 2 777 0 876 win jim hrivnak 1596 97 1 3 65 10 12 5 803 0 879 min darcy 97 0 3 66 7 19 2 757 0 872 tb wendell young 1163 71 0 3 66 8 10 1 573 0 876 tb jc bergeron 146 2 3 67 21 16 4 1180 0 876 nj craig billington 1210 74 1 3 67 8 8 2 628 0 882 stl guy hebert 1302 80 2 3 69 8 12 0 664 0 880 rick tabaracci 664 41 0 3 70 5 6 0 344 0 881 buf tom draper 224 14 0 3 75 1 2 1 116 0 879 nyr corey hirsch 1769 111 1 3 76 13 11 5 932 0 881 phi dominic roussel 134 1 3 82 13 19 3 1184 0 887 nyr mike richter 157 10 0 3 82 1 2 0 78 0 872 nyi danny lorenz 240 1 3 84 17 38 6 0 884 edm bill ranford 111 0 3 84 15 8 4 987 0 888 la robb stauber 175 2 3 86 18 21 6 1545 0 887 la kelly hrudey 154 10 0 3 90 0 2 1 66 0 848 que jacques 867 57 0 3 94 5 9 1 499 0 886 har mario gosselin 532 35 0 3 95 6 4 0 294 0 881 la rick knickle 2268 150 1 3 97 8 24 4 1197 0 875 tb pat jablonski 2074 142 1 4 11 7 26 0 1250 0 886 sj arturs irbe 2656 184 0 4 16 16 27 3 0 875 har sean burke 1338 93 0 4 17 9 12 2 763 0 878 edm ron tugnutt 1326 95 0 4 30 2 17 1 743 0 872 ott daniel berthiaume 802 59 0 4 41 3 9 0 405 0 854 phi stephane beauregard 250 0 4 43 8 46 3 0 854 ott peter sidorkiewicz 65 5 0 4 62 0 0 1 39 0 872 cal andrei trefilov 1373 111 0 4 85 4 15 1 784 0 858 har frank pietrangelo 73 6 0 4 93 0 0 1 34 0 824 win mike o'neill 60 5 0 5 00 0 1 0 46 0 891 sj wade flaherty 2000 176 0 5 28 2 30 1 1220 0 856 sj jeff hackett 930 86 0 5 55 2 14 1 559 0 846 sj brian hayward 160 15 0 5 63 0 3 0 91 0 835 tor rick wamsley 20 2 0 6 00 0 0 0 7 0 714 olaf 90 10 0 6 67 0 2 0 44 0 773 ott darrin 249 30 0 7 23 0 5 0 146 0 795 ott steve weeks 98 13 0 7 96 0 2 0 51 0 745 la david 45 7 0 9 33 0 1 0 21 0 667 tb david littman randy coulman , sc aries laboratory research assistant department computational science university saskatchewan coulman cs usask ca saskatoon , sk s7n 0w0
coulman cs usask ca \( randy coulman \) subject final regular season team goalie stats organization university saskatchewan lines 177 distribution world reply coulman cs usask ca nntp posting host skorpio usask ca would appreciate someone could volunteer verify shots goal save percentage numbers , put stats archive site contact mail want volunteer team goalie stats wed apr 21 09 09 38 cst 1993 stats include games including sunday previous date listed verified printed newspaper every tuesday n't print shots save percentage numbers , verified questions , comments suggestions , let know randy mp minutes played , ga goals , shutouts , gaa goals average w wins , l losses , ties sog shots goal , sv save percentage mp ga gaa w l sog sv tm player 177 7 2 59 41 18 11 1879 0 906 chi ed belfour 996 49 2 2 95 6 7 1 414 0 882 chi jim waite 5108 230 9 2 70 47 25 12 0 900 chi 479 18 2 2 25 6 2 0 232 0 922 tor daren puppa 116 2 2 50 25 15 7 1287 0 910 tor felix potvin 87 1 3 14 13 9 4 823 0 894 tor grant fuhr 160 15 0 5 63 0 3 0 91 0 835 tor rick wamsley 241 5 2 84 44 29 11 0 901 tor 25 1 0 2 40 0 0 0 10 0 900 bos mike bales 1322 64 1 2 90 9 8 4 596 0 893 bos john blue 3194 168 3 3 16 37 14 3 1354 0 876 bos andy moog 542 31 0 3 43 5 4 0 225 0 862 bos reggie 268 4 3 16 51 26 7 2190 0 878 bos 3702 186 4 3 01 43 14 5 0 902 pit tom barrasso 78 0 3 42 13 7 2 691 0 887 pit ken 268 5 3 16 56 21 7 0 896 pit 3890 196 1 3 02 29 28 9 2194 0 911 stl curtis joseph 1210 74 1 3 67 8 8 2 628 0 882 stl guy hebert 278 2 3 26 36 36 11 2825 0 902 stl 1817 94 1 3 10 18 8 4 858 0 890 van kay whitmore 3261 184 3 3 39 28 21 5 0 886 van kirk mclean 278 4 3 28 46 29 9 0 886 van 1193 64 0 3 22 13 4 2 522 0 877 det vincent riendeau 210 4 3 25 34 24 7 1898 0 889 det tim cheveldae 5088 280 4 3 30 47 28 9 0 885 det 40 1 0 1 50 0 0 0 19 0 947 mtl frederick 192 2 3 20 31 25 5 1813 0 894 mtl patrick roy 1433 81 1 3 39 17 5 1 686 0 882 mtl andre racicot 280 3 3 30 48 30 6 0 889 mtl 1311 70 1 3 20 14 4 1 629 0 889 cal jeff reese 3732 203 2 3 26 29 26 9 0 888 cal mike vernon 65 5 0 4 62 0 0 1 39 0 872 cal andrei trefilov 282 3 3 30 43 30 11 0 886 cal 1 0 0 0 00 0 0 0 0 1 000 byron 343 10 2 1 75 3 2 0 162 0 938 rick tabaracci 181 1 3 31 27 23 5 0 882 beaupre 1421 83 0 3 50 13 9 2 681 0 878 jim hrivnak 20 2 0 6 00 0 0 0 7 0 714 olaf 286 3 3 37 43 34 7 0 880 193 3 3 33 26 26 5 1683 0 885 min jon casey 1596 97 1 3 65 10 12 5 803 0 879 min darcy 293 4 3 45 36 38 10 0 882 min 1429 75 0 3 15 11 10 4 716 0 895 buf dominik hasek 98 0 3 47 11 15 2 903 0 891 buf grant fuhr 1306 78 0 3 58 11 5 4 706 0 890 buf daren puppa 664 41 0 3 70 5 6 0 344 0 881 buf tom draper 297 0 3 49 38 36 10 0 889 buf 146 1 3 30 22 20 2 0 889 nyi glenn healy 2253 130 0 3 46 17 15 5 1067 0 878 nyi mark fitzpatrick 157 10 0 3 82 1 2 0 78 0 872 nyi danny lorenz 5088 297 1 3 50 40 37 7 0 880 nyi 1939 110 0 3 40 18 9 4 947 0 884 que stephane 172 0 3 45 29 16 5 1525 0 887 que ron hextall 154 10 0 3 90 0 2 1 66 0 848 que jacques 300 0 3 53 47 27 10 0 882 que 151 2 3 39 19 21 3 1322 0 886 nj chris terreri 146 2 3 67 21 16 4 1180 0 876 nj craig billington 299 4 3 53 40 37 7 0 881 nj 152 4 3 31 20 18 7 1519 0 900 nyr john vanbiesbrouck 224 14 0 3 75 1 2 1 116 0 879 nyr corey hirsch 134 1 3 82 13 19 3 1184 0 887 nyr mike richter 5108 308 5 3 62 34 39 11 0 891 nyr 143 5 3 42 20 17 6 0 892 phi tommy soderstrom 1769 111 1 3 76 13 11 5 932 0 881 phi dominic roussel 802 59 0 4 41 3 9 0 405 0 854 phi stephane beauregard 319 6 3 75 36 37 11 0 881 phi 227 2 3 53 33 26 6 2119 0 893 win bob essensa 180 13 0 4 33 2 1 0 96 0 865 win jim hrivnak 959 70 0 4 38 5 10 0 502 0 861 win rick tabaracci 73 6 0 4 93 0 0 1 34 0 824 win mike o'neill 320 2 3 78 40 37 7 0 884 win 97 0 3 66 7 19 2 757 0 872 tb wendell young 1163 71 0 3 66 8 10 1 573 0 876 tb jc bergeron 2268 150 1 3 97 8 24 4 1197 0 875 tb pat jablonski 45 7 0 9 33 0 1 0 21 0 667 tb david littman 5088 332 1 3 92 24 53 7 0 870 tb 240 1 3 84 17 38 6 0 884 edm bill ranford 1338 93 0 4 17 9 12 2 763 0 878 edm ron tugnutt 337 1 3 97 26 50 8 0 881 edm 111 0 3 84 15 8 4 987 0 888 la robb stauber 175 2 3 86 18 21 6 1545 0 887 la kelly hrudey 532 35 0 3 95 6 4 0 294 0 881 la rick knickle 98 13 0 7 96 0 2 0 51 0 745 la david 5100 340 2 4 00 39 35 10 0 881 la 11 0 0 0 00 0 0 0 3 1 000 har 168 9 0 3 21 1 1 1 87 0 897 har mike lenarduzzi 867 57 0 3 94 5 9 1 499 0 886 har mario gosselin 2656 184 0 4 16 16 27 3 0 875 har sean burke 1373 111 0 4 85 4 15 1 784 0 858 har frank pietrangelo 369 0 4 34 26 52 6 0 871 har 1326 95 0 4 30 2 17 1 743 0 872 ott daniel berthiaume 250 0 4 43 8 46 3 0 854 ott peter sidorkiewicz 90 10 0 6 67 0 2 0 44 0 773 ott darrin 249 30 0 7 23 0 5 0 146 0 795 ott steve weeks 395 0 4 67 10 70 4 2656 0 851 ott 2074 142 1 4 11 7 26 0 1250 0 886 sj arturs irbe 60 5 0 5 00 0 1 0 46 0 891 sj wade flaherty 2000 176 0 5 28 2 30 1 1220 0 856 sj jeff hackett 930 86 0 5 55 2 14 1 559 0 846 sj brian hayward 414 1 4 89 11 71 2 0 866 sj randy coulman , sc aries laboratory research assistant department computational science university saskatchewan coulman cs usask ca saskatoon , sk s7n 0w0
gjhsun \( george h \) subject cherry help , organization michigan state university lines 11 nntp posting host gjhsun cl msu edu lmarsha cms cc wayne edu \( laurie marshall \) writes got nickname 'grapes' i'm sure use coach boston bruins n't know exactly could someone fill info \? think name 'grapes' came coach \( bruins \? minors \? \) used chew grapes keep getting dehydrated games dog blue may named 'cause liked beer anyone know \?
superior carleton ca \( david heath \) subject grant fuhr leads sabres organization carleton university lines 24 1993apr21 newshub ists ca dchhabra stpl ists ca \( deepak chhabra \) writes article 1993apr21 wuecl wustl edu jca2 cec1 wustl edu \( joseph charles achkar \) writes buffalo 2 0 series boston , reason grant fuhr \? fuhr playoff hungry , 's proving call money goaltender fuhr might one best goaltenders league anymore \( statistically least \) , 's proving make big save right time leafs kept fuhr , probably would chance powerhouse detroit game 1 \? applauded sabres making deal get fuhr , specifically thought would help win least one playoff series however , n't think leafs faulted either nothing say felix wo n't winning playoff series years come agree joseph felix potvin great goalie besides , thought leafs could protect goalie coming expansion draft , 's better get rid one good goalie get good forward return
cleveland freenet edu \( theodore g benjamin \) subject radio stations organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 23 nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu mon apr 19 15 46 40 1993 , greanias texas mitre org \( steve greanias \) wrote cable nights caps n't play , would like tune games anyone list radio stations broadcast games nhl teams \? ones remember offhand kdka 1020 pittsburgh penguins wabc 770 new jersey devils 780 chicago blackhawks \( \? \) 720 detroit redwings 1120 st louis blues flyers 1210 \? 's think ted benjamin go cards ! ! go ! ! msfc nasa gov go blues ! ! go vols ! ! \( 205 \) 544 go ! ! \( 4 line sig cramp one 's art \)
gwittt alleg edu \( tom gwitt \) subject 77 's \? organization allegheny college lines 15 article 1r23on 4p6 bigboote wpi edu ching bigwpi wpi edu \( logistician \) writes need players wearing 77 nhl know one , ray borque bruins help would greatly appreciated thanx pierre turgeon , sabres isles wears 77 \( least buffalo \) tom gwitt gwittt alleg edu
organization penn state university robbie po rap115 psuvm psu edu subject let's go buffalo ! lines 15 article andrew cmu edu , william k willis ww1a andrew cmu edu says know , never really appreciated ! looks like bob errey 's ring really locker room , everyone else wants one , ! \) correct i'm wrong though , \( net , e mail , n't need 100 rl 's e mail ! \) n't boston 2 0 vs buffalo last year \? boston lost 1 2 home 3 4 buffalo whoever wins game 3 advance simple ! ! ! \) robbie po pgh penguins ! ! ! comes naturally ! patrick division semi 's time record see , wait penguins 7 , devils 0 season win streak possibility , n't see penguins lead , 2 0 playoff win streak strong resemblance dg '89
ua256 freenet victoria bc ca \( tom moffat \) subject forsberg nntp posting host freenet victoria bc ca organization camosun college , victoria b c , canada lines 9 e give stats world championships sao mail ua256 freenet victoria bc ca tom moffat victoria b c canada
caj sei cmu edu \( carol jarosz \) subject trivia question organization software engineering institute lines 12 watching penguins devils game last night , saw slash barrasso took neck brought mind goaltender jugular vein cut skate think sabre , i'm positive anyone remember know name \? happened since \? player whose skate cut goalie \? name \? info \? ever happened hockey game \? thanks , carol go pens !
gwittt alleg edu \( tom gwitt \) subject buffalo sabres organization allegheny college lines 15 article msuinfo cl msu edu vergolin euler lbs msu edu \( david vergolini \) writes ok , buffalo fans red wings fan , amazed sabres beating bruins reason \? grant fuhr mogilny lafontaine \? would like hear since know much sabres two words grant fuhr tom gwitt gwittt alleg edu
qucis queensu ca \( liam john \) subject trivia question organization computing information science , queen 's university kingston lines 29 article 1993apr23 102811 623 sei cmu edu caj sei cmu edu \( carol jarosz \) writes watching penguins devils game last night , saw slash barrasso took neck brought mind goaltender jugular vein cut skate think sabre , i'm positive anyone remember know name \? happened since \? player whose skate cut goalie \? name \? info \? clint malarchuk dangerous accident could died right ice however , played since n't know think still playing i'm positive sabre time n't know skated though ever happened hockey game \? remember couple seasons malarchuk incident borje salming toronto fell crease someone skated face took lot fix thanks , carol go pens ! liam go toronto \( 'd better start going soon \) !
hammerl acsu buffalo edu \( valerie hammerl \) subject octopus detroit \? organization ub lines 14 nntp posting host lictor acsu buffalo edu side note , squid octopi made way ice buffalo still n't understand buffalo , maybe 's lucky \) btw , shovel ice , using shovel used scoop snow zamboni leaves leaves ice although blue give technical directions removal , stick valerie hammerl john sr would lift pat boards , grab hammerl acsu buffalo edu hand , start running around outside , v085pwpz ubvms cc buffalo edu faster faster wanted learn get feeling , way learn skate p lafontaine
hammerl acsu buffalo edu \( valerie hammerl \) subject let's go buffalo ! organization ub lines 22 nntp posting host lictor acsu buffalo edu article appserv eng sun com mre teal eng sun com \( mike eisler \) writes article 93111 psuvm psu edu robbie po rap115 psuvm psu edu writes article andrew cmu edu , william k willis ww1a andrew cmu edu says know , never really appreciated ! looks like bob errey 's ring really locker room , everyone else wants one , ! \) correct i'm wrong though , \( , fuhr 's 5 rings errey 's n't bob 2 rings \? regardless , 'd errey 's couple games hip injury valerie hammerl john sr would lift pat boards , grab hammerl acsu buffalo edu hand , start running around outside , v085pwpz ubvms cc buffalo edu faster faster wanted learn get feeling , way learn skate p lafontaine
lmcmasc noah ericsson se \( mauro \) subject stats reply lmcmasc noah ericsson se organization ericsson communication inc lines 4 nntp posting host lmc ericsson se x disclaimer article posted user ericsson opinions expressed strictly user necessarily ericsson anyone player stats games played april 22 , 1993 mauro
chad nicholas hunter andrew cmu edu subject espn organization senior , physics , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 9 nntp posting host po2 andrew cmu edu n't know anyone posted message like yet , i'm getting really sick espn showing last minute hockey game , score tied , cutting saying sorry ca n't show show baseball tonight \( even game highlight show \) gee , sure would nice see isles caps overtime live pittsburgh \( yes i'm pens fan \) hockey gets lot coverage imagine caps fan residing texas must feel
jwh sei cmu edu \( john huber \) subject leafs crushed blues win flames back organization software engineering institute lines 34 article 1993apr22 wuecl wustl edu , jca2 cec1 wustl edu \( joseph charles achkar \) writes article vzhivov cunews vzhivov alfred carleton ca \( vladimir zhivov \) writes blues , led best goalie nhl season , curtis joseph , shut hawks 2 0 blues playing like '86 clutch 'n grab , shoot puck 's incredibly boring watch , works finally non blues fan agrees joseph great goalie think win vezina year least share barrasso also shadowed mario 's amazing performance think joseph great year considered vezina think barrasso joseph two strongest candidates year n't believe hype roy , belfour potvin receive goaltending think great nets , would rather curtis , tommy fuhr nets years playoffs big name always seem strong defense front goaltenders get credit would rather face 25 shots game , rely joseph saving 35 , goalie going face 35 shots , would rather joseph barrasso facing jay ps go quebec ! ! ! know mclean several others mentioned candidates years vezina , partial joseph barrasso season john w huber , jr aka jay penguins 1991 , 1992 stanley cup champions software engineering institute pirates 1990 , 1991 , 1992 nl east champions sei \( 412 \) 268 boat skiing
huot cray com \( tom huot \) subject espn2 tell us lines 18 nntp posting host pittpa cray com organization cray research inc x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 geoff filinuk \( filinuk staff dccs upenn edu \) wrote comes indirectly al works studio espn hockey text deleted espn contractual obligation show baseball could broadcast ot hockey game next year , espn2 introduced baseball fans watch baseball hockey fans watch hockey n't heard new espn2 new network supposed start \? sounds great ! \( long cable co offers \) tom huot huot cray com
ubvmsd cc buffalo edu \( real \) subject trivia question organization university buffalo lines 27 news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host ubvmsd cc buffalo edu article 1993apr23 102811 623 sei cmu edu , caj sei cmu edu \( carol jarosz \) writes watching penguins devils game last night , saw slash barrasso took neck brought mind goaltender jugular vein cut skate think sabre , i'm positive anyone remember know name \? happened since \? player whose skate cut goalie \? name \? info \? ever happened hockey game \? clint malarchuk 's neck cut uwe krupp 's skate know happened buffalo , ca n't tell krupp defending opposing attacker charging net malarchuk became fourth goalie \( behind hasek , puppa draper \) suffering obsessive compulsive disorder 's playing san diego former sabre coach rick krupp playing islanders lafontaine turgeon trade win \? \) patrick ubvms cc buffalo edu always said state university new york buffalo something fundamentally wrong universe aka jay walker , 1 arthur dent
hammerl acsu buffalo edu \( valerie hammerl \) subject sabres bruins notes organization ub lines 57 nntp posting host lictor acsu buffalo edu unlikely , improbable bruins , stuff nightmares sabres , taste heaven first time since 1983 , sabres first three games series last time three games none victory best five canadiens takes little work time sabres seem ready put extra work heels shutout , one took away boston 's home ice advantage , sabres came back four three overtime win n't easy n't always pretty still worked john blue got nod boston , andy moog starting goaltender moog pulled midway game 2 tuesday buffalo started goal mogilny , fourth playoffs , powerplay , boston 's sweeney gord roberts box lafontaine hawerchuk assists goal number two khmylev 's first playoffs , pretty goal scored sabres stole puck passed open waiting khmylev smehlik hannan assisted determined shut , boston shot ray bourque powerplay , colin patterson bob sweeney box period two scoreless , split penalties two clubs third saw boston 's smolinski get first , courtesy oates buffalo lead two minutes later , former bruin bob sweeney \( khmylev carney \) neely tied game 3 4 way third , sending overtime last year overtime meant bruin win last night , spelled sweet revenge , buffalo scored ray bourque penalty box , tip khmylev \( hawerchuk lafontaine \) minute overtime teams finished 34 shots power play conversions boston 5 1 buffalo 7 2 referee rob comments whistle third , allowing lot clutching grabbing buffalo 's penalty killing unit fantastic mogilny checking granted missed instead flung body boards , checking like novel idea mogilny crowd unbelievable n't think 've ever heard crowd loud aud sabres game \( remember , five played cup n't remember one took games \) doug , interview , noted tried say something hawerchuk , crowd loud , even though shouting n't seem matter , sabres even muckler said great yuri khmylev n't seem realize game 's third star n't skate name called sweeney \( 2 \) fuhr \( 1 \) yuri made appearance , sans jersey asked interview later whether knew big goal , yes \( ok , interpreter said , even interpreter said , digress \) interviewer seemed think n't speak english , must understand playoffs uh huh valerie hammerl john sr would lift pat boards , grab hammerl acsu buffalo edu hand , start running around outside , v085pwpz ubvms cc buffalo edu faster faster wanted learn get feeling , way learn skate p lafontaine
bhullar bldg hsc campus \( raj bhullar \) subject montreal quebec summary montreal wins game 3 , without controversy keywords montreal wins game get back series nntp posting host bhullar oral umanitoba ca organization oral biology , univ manitoba lines 24 article msuinfo cl msu edu vergolin euler lbs msu edu \( david vergolini \) writes anyone see montreal quebec game yesterday \? tight right last second third period overtime roy hextall played like gods ok , montreal ! deserved getting first goal overtime waved puck hit high stick second goal overtime also replayed , could tell montreal player kicked puck definitely directed stick anyways , montreal back series dave vergolini michigan state university vergolin euler lbs msu edu replay clearly showed winning goal montreal went skate quebec defenceman checking kirk muller front hextall
chuq apple com \( chuq von rospach \) subject sharks jack feirerra \( sharks kingston fired ! ! ! \) organization go sharks , go giants , inc lines 46 nntp posting host apple com gak wrs com \( richard stueven \) writes hand , i'm hard pressed think real mistakes made imagine indeed , benefit hindsight well , jettison youth fast strategy also hindsight , n't work well , think left sharks without net , inherently flawed injuries caused us fall let 's say view sharks' upper management , attempt trade kisio major factor decision fire feirerra indications , n't major factor , last straw personality conflicts among shark management , disagreements personnel going handled \( traded vs kept , sent kc ferriera , rumors right , always folks behind bench wanted needed \) i'm inclined take exactly opposite view kept 's obviously man hockey ! think 'd kept ferriera , would lost management staff depending sources trust , might lost lombardi murdoch summer frankly , want keep three \( may well ahve also lost kingston , , course , moot point \) sharks building organizational staff highly consensual cooperative ferriera wanted run things way conflicts ferriera lost says nothing skills accomplishments level , lot personality politics think good things sharks , never fit shark person hope succeeds beyond wildest dreams anaheim , , 'll good hockey \( want ducks couple years , sharks first \) chuq imho von rospach , esd support training \( dal aux \) chuq apple com member , sfwa editor , otherrealms genie mac bigot alink chuq minor league fans minors request medraut apple com \( san jose giants 1 9 \) san francisco giants fans giants request medraut apple com \( stick \? ! \) san jose sharks fans sharks request medraut apple com \( new seat 127 tbd \)
alumni lakeheadu ca subject leafs v wings summary rob sucks ! ! ! organization external relations , lakehead university lines 2 agree ! rob sucks big time thing last night 's game boston buffalo
alumni lakeheadu ca subject potvin stick organization external relations , lakehead university lines 4 nothing wrong felix problem n't dino hard enough next time felix aim ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! go leafs
steven kipling freddy ersys edmonton ab ca \( steven kipling \) subject buffalo sabres reply steven kipling freddy ersys edmonton ab ca \( steven kipling \) distribution world organization freddy 's place bbs edmonton , ab 403 456 4241 lines 32 quoting bill gregory bg hey saw game ! thought sabres looked better bg described 's boston looked weak unsure even bg \( big \) \( bruins \) win third game 's going bg prove \? lucky ! well sabres 3 0 games , bad boston n't putting fight could best series playoffs , think boston come smoking next two games buffalo end series game six back buffalo , say , islanders \? 2 1 capitals probably win series , clobbered penguins eliminate devils next game cannot see \( i'm sad say \) anyone beating penguins year \( \) take cup 3 i'm afraid well talk ya later steve find girl 's faults , praise girl friends blue wave qwk v2 12
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject buffalo 4 , boston 0 defense ! ! organization university toronto chemistry department lines 13 article hsdndev harvard edu nhmas gauss med harvard edu \( mark shneyder 432 4219 \) writes harry never admit screwed major way brought one dumbest people business , brian sutter sutter 's playoff record head coach st louis speaks blues really chance advance second round year grant fuhr done lot better coaches brian sutter gerald
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject hockey guest spots organization university toronto chemistry department lines 10 article 22apr93 vm1 mcgill ca jbe5 jbe5 musicb mcgill ca writes manon rheaume letterman sept 1992 english terrible letterman took cheap shots although shots funny , uncalled well , contrary , thought dave rather taken accent \( h \) passion gerald
smorris venus lerc nasa gov \( ron morris \) subject wjr boston organization nasa lewis research center lines 19 distribution na nntp posting host venus lerc nasa gov news software vax vms vnews 1 41 john writes red wings fans boston , thought 'd know \( desperate news game \) tried get wjr \( 760 \) walkman succeeded ! night \( 10pm \) reception got better got get wjr long way away problem , well known beloved contractual obligations , wjr tiger baseball instead wings playoff games probably half games wings could play series , know tonight 's game believe games 5 6 \( \) bumped ron one major goals leave next president new set things worry i'm getting bored reading problems paper , decade decade want people deal new problems president bill clinton 2 4 93
emr1 emr ca \( roy \) subject sabre fans organization dept energy , mines , resources , ottawa x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 8 yes , yes , see sabre fans finally taking sabre moth balls proudly wearing 9 years playoff frustration 3 games nil guess pretty good bet team come back 0 3 deficit since 1975 could year \( n't throw moth balls yet \) roy
smorris venus lerc nasa gov \( ron morris \) subject wings news playoff thoughts organization nasa lewis research center lines 32 distribution world nntp posting host venus lerc nasa gov news software vax vms vnews 1 41 wrote feel jury still tim cheveldae playoff goalie average first playoffs last year , horrible start , played great last ten games benched gaa , even horrible start , 2 5 last year year , think 's going play well \( detroit going win cup \) n't sharp game 1 , n't thought looked pretty good yesterday charles writes great write wings toronto series thus far agree everything said , chevy n't let shot right point first goal , , think , wings looking good , chevy holding great , maybe chevy let 2 3 soft goals far , n't matter however , recent history play comes big counts score 4 0 think goal mentioned scored third period looked like toronto coming back , chevy exceptional see style playoff goalie 's nothing line , comes big really needed guess 'll find ron one major goals leave next president new set things worry i'm getting bored reading problems paper , decade decade want people deal new problems president bill clinton 2 4 93
colling ann arbor applicon slb com \( michael collingridge \) subject hockey guest spots organization schlumberger cad cam ann arbor , michigan \( usa \) summary tod letterman lines 33 article rec sport hockey sclark epas utoronto ca \( susan clark \) asks hi guys i'm looking bit trivia appeared major talk shows tv \( e , letterman , carson , , etc e shows national nature include canadian equivalents think \) \? include nhl , olympic , world champion ship players i'm pretty sure 've seen gretzky lemieux , wondering others sure celebrated players game , tod , played harvard college went play ahl \( initially moncton currently providence thanks daryl turner update ! \) appeared david letterman 's show two years ago tod distinction first american born player go play former soviet union arranged jets gm mike smith tod playing moncton time european players coming north america play nhl tod spent year playing russia played russian players entered nhl last two years wrote book experiences called behind red line \( check ! \) appeared letterman show talk mike note hope facts straight year since read tod 's book wanted dig book double check , realized lent friend , n't returned book yet ! \( wait 'til get hold \)
bnr ca \( paul valin \) subject montreal quebec nntp posting host organization bell northern research ltd lines 25 article msuinfo cl msu edu , vergolin euler lbs msu edu \( david vergolini \) wrote anyone see montreal quebec game yesterday \? tight right last second third period overtime roy hextall played like gods ok , montreal ! deserved getting first goal overtime waved puck hit high stick second goal overtime also replayed , could tell montreal player kicked puck definitely directed stick anyways , montreal back series overhead replay pretty clearly showed quebec defender deflected puck play officials take nearly much time make call first non goal , seemed pretty non controversial agree great game good see roy damphousse back form hopefully sign good things come paul valin tel 1 613 763 bell northern research ltd email bnr ca p box 3511 , station c ottawa , ontario , canada k1y 4h7 'only opinions '
matthew keating andrew cmu edu subject bowman needs credit organization freshman , im h ss track , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 26 nntp posting host andrew cmu edu first three games pens devils series , impressed time time pure talent pens jagr , barrasso especially fun watch , one element team goes unnoticed seems scotty bowman despite lunatic comments , despite line changing last night 's game , bowman able keep cool keep devils dark granted , hell pens bottled last night , bowman eventually able configure line get job done ability throw new looks strategies moments notice incredible bowman seems terrific ability reading players individual basis last night , instance , realized speed jagr , straka , throwing devils balance result , straka received many shifts average jagr played almost entire game \( always puck \) , scored goal , jagr many times throughout night ability commit one player crucial situations , especially coach talented team might simply rely overall talent dominate , bring success one replace genius optimism badger bob johnson , bowman , way , made permanent , though clearly seen , mark pittsburgh
duncan \( nicholas duncan \) subject 's roger \? nntp posting host organization mpr teltech ltd lines 9 really feel need knowledgable hockey observer explain year 's playoffs mean , obviously superior toronto team best center best goalie league keeps losing gives \? stand misstatements 've made vice president dan quayle sam donaldson , 8 17 89 nick duncan duncan mprgate mpr ca
bks2 cbnewsi cb att com \( bryan k strouse \) subject nhl playoff results games played 4 22 93 organization keywords division semis game 3 lines 128 nhl playoff results 4 22 93 conference semi finals best seven patrick adams norris smythe nj buf \( leads 3 0 \) stl \( leads 2 0 \) win pit \( leads 3 0 \) bos chi van \( leads 2 0 \) nyi \( leads 2 1 \) mon tor la \( tied 1 1 \) que \( leads 2 1 \) det \( leads 2 0 \) cal quebec nordiques \( leads series 2 1 \) 1 0 0 0 1 montreal canadiens 0 1 0 1 2 1st period que , sundin 1 \( \) 1 17 2nd period mon , muller 1 \( damphousse , bellows \) \( pp \) 1 30 3rd period none 1 overtime mon , damphousse 1 \( bellows , desjardins \) \( pp \) 10 30 powerplay opportunities nordiques 0 4 canadiens 2 6 shots goal nordiques 12 4 14 5 35 canadiens 11 14 13 12 50 quebec nordiques hextall \( 2 1 \) \( 50 shots 48 saves \) montreal canadiens roy \( 1 2 \) \( 35 shots 34 saves \) att 17 , 679 pittsburgh penguins \( leads series 3 0 \) 1 0 3 4 new jersey devils 1 1 1 3 1st period njd , guerin 1 1 03 pit , mceachern 3 \( straka \) 9 36 2nd period njd , holik 1 \( stevens \) 16 32 3rd period pit , lemieux 4 \( murphy , ramsey \) 1 07 pit , taglianetti 1 \( loney , tippett \) 7 05 pit , murphy 1 \( francis , tocchet \) \( pp \) 9 31 njd , semak 1 \( zelepukin \) 9 44 powerplay opportunities penguins 1 4 devils 0 5 shots goal penguins 7 16 12 35 devils 16 11 5 32 pittsburgh penguins barrasso \( 3 0 \) \( 32 shots 29 saves \) new jersey devils billington \( 0 1 \) \( 35 shots 31 saves \) att 14 , 974 boston bruins 1 0 2 0 3 buffalo sabres \( leads series 3 0 \) 2 0 1 1 4 1st period buf , mogilny 4 \( lafontaine , hawerchuk \) \( pp \) 1 33 buf , khmylev 1 \( smehlik , hannan \) 4 42 bos , bourque 1 \( oates , donato \) \( pp \) 17 33 2nd period none 3rd period bos , smolinski 1 \( oates \) 13 28 buf , b sweeney 2 \( khmylev , carney \) 14 56 bos , neely 3 \( oates , shaw \) 15 57 1 overtime buf , khmylev 2 \( hawerchuk , lafontaine \) \( pp \) 1 05 powerplay opportunities bruins 1 5 sabres 2 7 shots goal bruins 11 8 15 0 34 sabres 12 11 8 3 34 boston bruins blue \( 0 1 \) \( 34 shots 30 saves \) buffalo sabres fuhr \( 3 0 \) \( 34 shots 31 saves \) att 16 , 325 washington capitals 1 1 1 0 3 new york islanders \( leads series 2 1 \) 1 0 2 1 4 1st period nyi , thomas 1 16 37 , burridge 1 \( may , cavallini \) 18 58 2nd period , carpenter 1 \( ridley , bondra \) 6 18 3rd period , elynuik 1 \( carpenter , ridley \) 6 15 nyi , thomas 2 \( turgeon , king \) 11 11 nyi , turgeon 3 \( thomas , hogue \) 19 17 1 overtime nyi , ferraro 3 \( hogue , flatley \) 4 46 powerplay opportunities capitals 0 2 islanders 0 4 shots goal capitals 10 8 6 1 25 islanders 10 6 8 6 30 washington capitals tabaracci \( 1 2 \) \( 25 shots 21 saves \) new york islanders healy \( 2 1 \) \( 30 shots 27 saves \) att 14 , 180 spike
odin control utoronto ca \( gary leung \) subject potvin stick organization university toronto , systems control group lines 45 article 9 0 sscl uwo ca sscl uwo ca writes dino getting shots front net , expect playoff hockey anything goes lose one game regular season , 's bad lose game playoffs 's difficult thing overcome 've watched hockey \( played \) number years n't seen one post season game forward front net finished without bruises back leg leafs good job clearing net potvin forced take matters hands remember used play london knights \( \) , always nuisance front net goalies took exception also complained \( morning 's paper \) happened last night , , 's lot team 2 0 complains wonder would happen tried thing front billy smith younger ron hextall \? seems dino would need two legs dino take part game thank lucky stars 's playoffs good chance go finals well , agree 're going stand front net , expect get hit hacked general , expect finish game bruises however , fine line hacking guy \( causing pain discomfort \) blatantly attempting injure another player felix potvin , imo , crossed line wednesday two hander ciccarelli way line lost lot respect potvin showed immaturity slash ciccarelli simply try remove slot area \( legal position dino \) instead , slashed attempt injure shear frustration leaf supporter \( supporter , i'm leaf fan really \) , disappointed 're right mentioning billy smith ron hextall \( least philly days \) crossed line times reason , many fans \( players \) disliked \( 's names always comes examples talk issues \) let 's hope felix n't 'd hate see anyone \( even dino although admit n't like much \) get seriously hurt careless \( intentional \) use stick gary
hammerl acsu buffalo edu \( valerie hammerl \) subject trivia question organization ub lines 53 nntp posting host lictor acsu buffalo edu article acsu buffalo edu ubvmsd cc buffalo edu \( real \) writes article 1993apr23 102811 623 sei cmu edu , caj sei cmu edu \( carol jarosz \) writes watching penguins devils game last night , saw slash barrasso took neck brought mind goaltender jugular vein cut skate think sabre , i'm positive anyone remember know name \? happened since \? player whose skate cut goalie \? name \? info \? ever happened hockey game \? clint malarchuk 's neck cut uwe krupp 's skate know happened buffalo , ca n't tell krupp defending opposing attacker charging net krupp 's skate krupp defending steve tuttle , blues sort tripped fell toward malarchuk , tuttle 's skate came close cutting \( actually missed \) jugular malarchuk immediately fell ice , hands neck , blood ice malarchuk became fourth goalie \( behind hasek , puppa draper \) suffering obsessive compulsive disorder 's playing san diego former sabre coach rick 'd suffering decade n't diagnosed n't sleep ten days decided alcohol help sleep unfortunately , 'd put ulcer medicine days earlier 's amazing lasted long ocd sufferers stop distinguishing line reality imagination , fail accept something 've checked ok example , ocd wash hands still think 're dirty might check oven ten times sure 's turned might see movie something automatically assume situation life malarchuk dramatically decreased medicine takes , still needs went past winter bad ocd episode think hospital couple days \( felt slowed reflexes , tried go without \) event , alive well living san diego , playing gulls \( ihl \) krupp playing islanders lafontaine turgeon trade tuttle longer blues , n't know possibly ihl , 'd best ask blues fan valerie hammerl john sr would lift pat boards , grab hammerl acsu buffalo edu hand , start running around outside , v085pwpz ubvms cc buffalo edu faster faster wanted learn get feeling , way learn skate p lafontaine
yadalle cs ualberta ca \( yadallee dave \) subject oilers sale \? \? nntp posting host cs ualberta ca organization university alberta , edmonton canada lines 11 's one mill oilers might move hamilton porklington get free deal given labour relations puck like , would sigh relief way w4e elements ! ! dave shariff yadallee \( b sc \( econ math \) \( u alberta 1990 \) \) \( yadalle cs ualberta ca \) god save queen , god bless us ! remember ! jesus saves lives eternal damnation ! newfoundland , keep good old clyde , vote liberal !
boudreau athena mit edu \( carol v boudreau \) subject trivia question organization massachusetts institute technology lines 42 distribution world nntp posting host 312 5 mit edu article 1993apr23 102811 623 sei cmu edu , caj sei cmu edu \( carol jarosz \) writes watching penguins devils game last night , saw slash barrasso took neck brought mind goaltender jugular vein cut skate think sabre , i'm positive anyone remember know name \? happened since \? player whose skate cut goalie \? name \? info \? ever happened hockey game \? thanks , carol go pens ! would clint speculated time , injury serious playing end rink time \( playing end parked \) , never would survived ditto , playing anything league ambulance standby 've seen video tape incident , amazing much blood literally ice , clint grabbed neck watched puddle horror amazingly enough , made full recovery , played nhl getting years time incident anyway , n't play long afterward people speculated could n't get back together incident , think bunch personal problems afterward eventually get back form , played another year , believe retired anyone else \? carol boudreau 44 k x terminator boudreau athena mit edu go flames ! rock kings !
scialdone nssdca gsfc nasa gov \( john scialdone \) subject way go ferraro ! ! ! ! news software vax vms vnews 1 41 organization nasa goddard space flight center lines 26 isles picked one hell time get first win year 2 periods caps seemed game hand playing steady defense getting great goaltending tabaracci isles power play philosophy continues dump chase , except like flatley , n't work caps hope al realizes ! ! many talented finesse players , carry puck set \? \? \? last night 's game omen , isles could way ole championship form coming behind late game advice caps healy rebounds flatley showed alot heart playing last period overtime despite almost swollen shut left eye injury suffered hands dale hunter ray ferraro arrived time playoffs showing hustle us islander fans remember italian past john tonelli ! ! ! tonelli similar game pens game 5 82 playoffs isles scored two late third period goals send game ot tied 3 ot , tonelli scored game winner send isles next round isles lacked years , perhaps back ! good see coliseum packed like ole days ! ! ! good luck isles rest way ! ! ! ! ! john scialdone scialdone nssdca gsfc nasa gov home brave jerry garcia , bob , vince april 12 , 1993 opening day , candlestick park
gballent hudson uvic ca \( greg ballentine \) subject wings win nntp posting host hudson uvic ca reply gballent hudson uvic ca organization university victoria , victoria , bc , canada lines 34 article vela acs oakland edu , ragraca vela acs oakland edu \( randy graca \) writes gballent vancouver uvic ca \( greg ballentine \) writes lots debate virtues bryan murray vs pat quinn gm deleted randy graca seems think murray best gm league think quinn one several better plus team \( quinn 's \) improved much greater amount detroit since took figure \? vancouver detroit thing last year division , close number points , went 3 1 first round playoffs finally escaping 7 games , got knocked second round teams able beat , less talent \( specifically , remember correctly , third place teams \) make vancouver improved \? , i'm mistaken , wings points vancouver end season \( albeit many \) quinn took vancouver several years ago , last year , missed playoffs ca n't recall missed playoffs year hiring probably quinn improved team non playoff calibre serious contender murray took detroit , 500 team contender win norris division possibly even stanley cup contender quinn improved team murray since taking gm quinn one example better gm murray gregmeister
dchhabra stpl ists ca \( deepak chhabra \) subject habs win , habs win ! ! ! ! ! ! ! nntp posting host stpl ists ca organization solar terresterial physics laboratory , ists lines 26 article 22apr93 vm1 mcgill ca jbe5 jbe5 musicb mcgill ca writes ! game , finally beat ! habs dominated game especially finally started going net ! see happens create traffic \? muller deserves full marks \( player ! \) , damphousse finally started skating roy \( \) excellent see third period save young \? defense taking quebec players zone anybody else wonder hextall feel like finds winning goal went man 's skate \? whatta suck although playing really well life n't get better ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! sure sunday b 's habs tied 2 2 'll see mean ! \) \) nick dchhabra stpl ists ca
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject bowman needs credit organization university toronto chemistry department lines 22 article andrew cmu edu matthew keating andrew cmu edu writes first three games pens devils series , impressed time time pure talent pens jagr , barrasso especially fun watch , one element team goes unnoticed seems scotty bowman bowman hockey hall fame coach already unlike gil stein n't get stacking board directors ! \) one replace genius optimism badger bob johnson , bowman , way , made permanent , though clearly seen , mark pittsburgh bowman genius johnson n't bowman great coach johnson , good one however , bowman really modern coach , patrick 's solution run team game days , delegate day day assistants shrewd managerial decision patrick 's part gerald
dan vicorp com \( dan \) subject bruins fans \? \? \? organization v corporation , northampton , massachusetts lines 33 article 93113 psuvm psu edu rap115 psuvm psu edu \( robbie po \) writes i'm wondering bruins fans \? \? \? mean woofed 1 , 000 , 000 posts regular season saying team going kick everyone 's playoffs win stanley oh really \? seem remember year 's woofers consisting mainly roger boston fans relatively quiet cup see nothing wrong little ranting raving , i'm curious boston faithful stopped posting mean n't even see one little boston fan post , 'cept bruins fans n't cocky guess concept fan cocky something could n't possible understand , eh \? n't know , 'd sure like see bruins fans \) robbie po 1993 's streakers comes naturally ! patrick division semi 's pgh penguins see , wait penguins 4 , devils 3 1991 , 1992 stanley possibility , n't see penguins lead , 3 0 cup champions \) strong resemblance dg '89 nah doubt really would 're provocative sob usual large stick course , mean nicest way \) much bragging , , r b c umass ! ! ! beat quakers \? btw congratulations go sabres playing , win deserve dan , dan vicorp com
horton uxa cso uiuc edu \( death success \) subject leafs crushed blues win flames back organization university illinois urbana lines 34 jca2 cec1 wustl edu \( joseph charles achkar \) writes article vzhivov cunews vzhivov alfred carleton ca \( vladimir zhivov \) writes joseph , shut hawks 2 0 blues playing like '86 clutch 'n grab , shoot puck 's incredibly boring watch , works road agree , 's boring 're blues fan , blues played two perfect road games boring right ! ! ! likely cause stroke ! ! listen game two station n't think could take another call joseph makes spectacular i'm blues fan , n't want play like played game two sure result fine , blues match well hawks really n't need treat like 86 flames n't need monday night miracle chance beat chicago blues talent least hawks rich h go blues ! ! \) l l e z l e b l u e ! ! ! joe ashkar contact blues saint louis jca2 cec1 wustl edu \( \) blues
mac18 po cwru edu \( michael cornell \) subject espn2 tell us organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 26 reply mac18 po cwru edu \( michael cornell \) nntp posting host thor ins cwru edu previous article , huot cray com \( tom huot \) says geoff filinuk \( filinuk staff dccs upenn edu \) wrote comes indirectly al works studio espn hockey text deleted espn contractual obligation show baseball could broadcast ot hockey game next year , espn2 introduced baseball fans watch baseball hockey fans watch hockey n't heard new espn2 new network supposed start \? sounds great ! \( long cable co offers \) usa today says late year question , hockey moved espn2 , game week espn , bunch games espn2 \? mike cornell great many people country today , mac18 po cwru edu fault , sane monty python let 's go flyers ! stanley cup '94 ! oh ! brain hurts ! mr p gumby
gomer pitt edu \( richard j coyle \) subject pens fans reactions organization university pittsburgh lines 18 article 1993apr22 sei cmu edu sad sei cmu edu \( susan dart \) writes amongst fans seems inner calm 've never experienced year pens players fans much confidence team year 're every game saving energy stanley cup 's inner calm 's boredom , 's spoiled arena 's quiet church many nights year many us take winning granted 's seemingly forever since team lost , 've forgotten 's like feel real excitement surprise victory i'm glad pens well , ways better high back pens beat bruins two years ago , rangers last year much good thing always good rick
gomer pitt edu \( richard j coyle \) subject lemieux 's getting hart jeez hope ! organization university pittsburgh lines 15 article 22apr93 02956996 0062 unbvm1 csd unb ca f1hh unb ca \( patrick walker \) writes \( much mindless drivel deleted \) sorry ramble see hate mario pat walker unb question canadian folk university new brunswick branch campus western business school \? seems like sort rectal belongs rick
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject oilers sale \? \? organization university toronto chemistry department lines 40 article yadalle yadalle cs ualberta ca \( yadallee dave \) writes 's one mill oilers might move hamilton porklington get free deal probability oilers going anywhere pocklington chosen moment make last stand moment maximum advantage provincial government months away provincial election moment maximum power convince northlands give better arena deal better purchase price nhl 's new collective agreement players might involve enhanced revenue sharing pocklington many things stupid one dictate terms cities pay price edmonton n't edmonton already fucked international airport , surrendered supremacy calgary , next years edmonton going take hard hit government screw beyond manages find way lose hockey team northlands wants continue use oilers subsidize horse racing however , case , long term financial viability oilers , fact pocklington basically right , regardless owns team , right provoke crisis , team millions dollars losses , becomes lack money sather done job oilers poised competitive soon \( al , one hockey writers canada post oilers season globe mail recently agrees \) gerald
colling ann arbor applicon slb com \( michael collingridge \) subject nhl scoring leaders organization schlumberger cad cam ann arbor , michigan \( usa \) lines 10 time nhl leading goal scorers \( denotes active player \) 1 gordie howe det hfd 801 2 wayne gretzky edm la 765 wonder many years take beat one \? \) mike
sad sei cmu edu \( susan dart \) subject espn reply chad nicholas hunter 's message fri , 23 apr 1993 11 16 36 0400 organization software engineering institute lines 9 espn pisses , call respond calls last night called said cutting baseball could n't see sudden death overtime buffalo game apparently received enough calls waited overtime finish cutting away phone number 203 585 2000 susan dart
subject wings news playoff thoughts kwolfer eagle wesleyan edu 1993apr23 1 eagle wesleyan edu prv msuinfo cl msu edu organization wesleyan university nntp posting host willet wesleyan edu lines 14 article prv msuinfo cl msu edu , twork egr msu edu \( michael twork \) writes roots detroit would valuable asset wings perhaps rangers could get zombo return \? wake smell norris ! ! rick zombo traded blues vince \( sp \? \) last season mike sorry mike ! defensemen would wings willing give beezer \?
cs ucsd edu \( mike \) subject sabres bruins lines 11 nntp posting host tartarus ucsd edu article appserv eng sun com mre teal eng sun com \( mike eisler \) writes i'm buffalo fan , could get bandwagon win 3 welcome aboard ! , since n't seen yet year \( preceding years \) , let say h c u l 'b' h e e r ! \( ! \)
gwittt alleg edu \( tom gwitt \) subject trivia question organization allegheny college lines 32 article 1993apr23 102811 623 sei cmu edu caj sei cmu edu \( carol jarosz \) writes watching penguins devils game last night , saw slash barrasso took neck brought mind goaltender jugular vein cut skate think sabre , i'm positive anyone remember know name \? clint malarchuk happened since \? assigned san diego gulls season believe player whose skate cut goalie \? name \? info \? uwe krupp blues player , though uwe 's skate beleive cut clint since traded isles lafontaine deal ever happened hockey game \? time know tom gwitt gwittt alleg edu go sabres ! ! !
ragraca vela acs oakland edu \( randy graca \) subject wings win organization oakland university , rochester , michigan , u lines 63 nntp posting host vela acs oakland edu gballent hudson uvic ca \( greg ballentine \) writes article vela acs oakland edu , ragraca vela acs oakland edu \( randy graca \) writes gballent vancouver uvic ca \( greg ballentine \) writes stuff deleted quinn took vancouver several years ago , last year , missed playoffs ca n't recall missed playoffs year hiring probably quinn improved team non playoff calibre serious contender murray took detroit , 500 team contender win norris division possibly even stanley cup contender last year bryan murray took , wings make playoffs considered possible contender jacques demers first arrived , last two years , respectively , embarrassed first round chicago , failed make playoffs \( time , might add , five teams norris \) 's true vancouver make playoffs many year quinn came , years smythe division lot mean lot tougher division norris , also known , division vancouver play edmonton calgary , legitimate stanley cup contenders , eight times year , detroit got play toronto minnesota , edmonton hardly even force league , smythe even mighty san jose sharks , period time vancouver improving , everybody norris \( except st louis \) detroit improve keep competition division improve lot get better competition norris bryan murray inherited team little talent really good players , yzerman , burr , probert , \( doubt dispute whether burr probert good \) rest either green rookies washed veterans reason got far years murray came due coaching demers , , least first , got every last ounce effort possible team , even coaching began degrade quinn improved team murray since taking gm quinn one example better gm murray number reasons detroit n't bad shape standings wise murray took quinn took , outlined , murray better personnel work outset quinn , exception yzerman one player cannot alone make team stanley cup contender , i'm sure everyone reading agree 'll able see better team really improved face conference final \( assuming n't get knocked , like last year \) gregmeister randy
slutsky tesla njit edu subject sports broadcasting fm organization new jersey institute technology lines 8 nntp posting host tesla curious known professional sports teams whose games regularly broadcast fm station one aware wysp philadelphia carries games respond summarize list bruce slutsky slutsky tesla njit edu
ns1 cc lehigh edu \( steven jay \) subject tv coverage nhl blame ! organization lehigh university lines 48 tv coverage playoffs fucking overtime time games shown \? hell kind shit \? would happened flyers \( damn playoffs begin \) watching , would gone throught roof ! however , everybody getting pissed espn , ones blame prior contracts ca n't simply break whenever want n h l blame signed deal espn , know know shit like would happen since would n't complete priority n h l feeling heat thrown espn n h l fans \? dare ones make damn league exist ca n't even televise complete playoff games us watch ! write , pissed get must let n h l know expect little better anybody knows go , let everybody else know well get chest i'm mario michael jordan hockey fall ice closet guy gets least 2 last night 3rd game nj pitt , pushed skating across front goal trying get shot guy good job , got weak shot , decided fall ice fucking ref \( van \? \) called guy holding replayed play , roomate \( clueless hockey \) wanted know nj guy get call , fucking obvious nj player hands stick , , trip simple , mario gets touched , falls ice , automatic 2 thing really pissed , pitt scored 3rd 4th goal , n't remember , resulting pp eventually 4 3 diving calls makes huge difference outcome game gotta stop damn holding interference fucking obvious hockey allows inferior players bring level better players , allows inferior teams beat better ones pissed many years , improved somewhat however , playoffs 3rd periods , damn refs must misplace balls , sure n't make calls show got agreeing disagreeing replies welcomed steve
dchhabra stpl ists ca \( deepak chhabra \) subject div conf names distribution na organization solar terresterial physics laboratory , ists lines 28 nntp posting host stpl ists ca article 1993apr20 ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) writes several problems way game presented fans feel geographical names would enhance regional loyalties names honouring personages think compromise would work namely honouring personages conference names , using geographical references divisional names although still think move draw fans game imo 's cosmetic change bettman owners hope effect n't say much mentality anybody works , either another thing bothers points system percentages , used major sports clearly informative look nhl standings first thing make quick calculation account games hand \( almost always case \) object percentages , claiming perhaps , sport surprise , agree totally points system fine , everybody times played number games since almost never case , winning percentage way go n't particularly care american thing either , works dchhabra stpl ists ca
woods ulowell edu subject ! bruins lose 4 3 lines 29 organization university massachusetts lowell ! ! ! bruins lost ca n't stand ! aside frustrated , must give buffalo credit making good scoring opportunities , playing great defense boston players ca n't seem get control puck anywhere near buffalo net except rare occasions buffalo defense also excellent job clearing away rebounds fuhr playing great big save needed 's also getting plenty help boston playing rather well \( better would indicated series score 3 0 \) lacking extra drive earlier part game result , boston keeps leaving ice end 1st period 2 goals must stop boston hope winning single game \( outlook bruin 's advancement second round quite bleak \) imho , bruins need score first , excellent chance winning , since outplayed sabres 2nd 3rd periods \( scary thing 'll going grad school buffalo next year 'll never cheer sabres ca n't convert \) mike die hard bruins fan dept chemistry umass lowell woods ulowell edu
hammerl acsu buffalo edu \( valerie hammerl \) subject oilers sale \? \? organization ub lines 18 nntp posting host lictor acsu buffalo edu article yadalle yadalle cs ualberta ca \( yadallee dave \) writes 's one mill oilers might move hamilton porklington get free deal given labour relations puck like , would sigh relief heard yesterday pocklington talking folks afternoon \( yesterday \) valerie hammerl john sr would lift pat boards , grab hammerl acsu buffalo edu hand , start running around outside , v085pwpz ubvms cc buffalo edu faster faster wanted learn get feeling , way learn skate p lafontaine
archer esd sgi com \( archer \( bad cop \) surly \) subject sharks kingston fired ! ! ! organization silicon graphics , inc mountain view , ca lines 20 1993apr22 iscnvx lmsc lockheed com spiegel msd lmsc lockheed com \( mark spiegel \) writes article 1993apr21 2880 csd newshost stanford edu nlu xenon stanford edu \( nelson lu \) writes mcgill hammond johan garpenlov would really rather two instead johan \? logic enjoy falloon ozolinsh injured reserve \? falloon hurt clean check fell poorly wilson n't know ozolinsh coach would sharks injury situation bob probert actually , ju coach could help add really interesting anyone 's game archer
organization penn state university robbie po rap115 psuvm psu edu subject buffalo 4 , boston 0 defense ! ! hsdndev harvard edu bson nutrimat gnu ai mit edu hsdndev harvard edu lines 54 article hsdndev harvard edu , nhmas gauss med harvard edu \( mark shneyder 432 4219 \) says fat lady hit first note okay , 3 0 deficits \? b 's chances comeback less 1 \( 's based 7 game playoff format \) actually , 's based nhl 's history 7 games odds winning one straight game 50 50 two straight games 25 three straight games 12 5 , 4 straight games 6 25 odds penguins winning 14 straight games playoffs 0 course , n't include weighted average , pens beating devils 3 straight \( weaker team \) along beating rangers 3 straight \( much stronger team \) made act balanced 's right boston odds winning probably closer 10 \( weighted average \) since buffalo 's record n't good boston stronger team enough probabilities though ! 's goes prove anything possible , integrate debbie gibson \) think gets start game three \? hope going blue team rally around , maybe moog moog gets 's 5 performance give blue 4 starts fuhr tough buffalo caught hot goaltender time mean , , buffalo 3 wins , 7 losses last 10 harry sinden 's appearance outside b 's dressing room game 3 pathetic site said something really retarded cover sutter 's behind , game winning losing harry , check 's frustrating lose , 've gotta say something actually 's winning losing , play game competition magnified level , 99 9 people care wins loses \) schedule ! team playoffs go long summer vacation sunday morning ! think buffalo win 6 's like boston getting blown away lost 2 ot games different bounce , could easily 2 1 harry never admit screwed major way brought one dumbest people business , brian sutter sutter 's playoff record head coach st louis speaks blues really chance advance second round year good point chicago 's deep trouble tonight bad past history winning division losing early n't finish 1st , okay robbie po 1993 's streakers comes naturally ! patrick division semi 's pgh penguins see , wait penguins 4 , devils 3 1991 , 1992 stanley possibility , n't see penguins lead , 3 0 cup champions \) strong resemblance dg '89
organization penn state university robbie po rap115 psuvm psu edu subject bruins fans \? \? \? 1993apr23 vicorp com lines 48 article 1993apr23 vicorp com , dan vicorp com \( dan \) says even see one little boston fan post , 'cept bruins fans n't cocky guess concept fan cocky something could n't possible understand , eh \? sig nothing put sig nothing article , learned back fall , hard way nah doubt really would 're provocative sob usual large stick course , mean mean n't \? \) nicest way \) sure \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? much bragging , , r b c umass ! ! ! beat quakers \? two points , one r b c hockey \? secondly , umass beat quakers \? \? \? hello ! ! ! earth , responding \? \? \? 're atlantic 10 \( 8 whatever wanna call \) , 're big 10 ! ! ! 10 weak lady lions go challenging conference n't pay big east showed thing , still posted regular basis tracked women 's scores reviews throughout tournament n't reason stop posting \) btw congratulations go sabres playing 's yet anyone chance come back 4 games , think boston , still see buffalo winning 6 , win deserve agreed 're playing tremendous hockey right three straight buffalo could easily 2 1 boston , buffalo come tough little luck \( never see penalty ot n't sides involved playoff game never never never ! \) robbie po 1993 's streakers comes naturally ! patrick division semi 's pgh penguins see , wait penguins 4 , devils 3 1991 , 1992 stanley possibility , n't see penguins lead , 3 0 cup champions \) strong resemblance dg '89
cobra chopin udel edu \( king cobra \) subject espn nntp posting host chopin udel edu organization university delaware lines 32 article 1993apr23 sei cmu edu sad sei cmu edu \( susan dart \) writes espn pisses , call respond calls last night called said cutting baseball could n't see sudden death overtime buffalo game apparently received enough calls waited overtime finish cutting away phone number 203 585 2000 susan dart well think whenever espn covers game wonderful job n't understand cut ot show stupid baseball news important waited scores sportscenter , talk baseball , basketball football showed highlight went back stupid basketball finally showed highlight ot goal like 30 sec think give attention nhl playoffs talking boring basketball games guess nhl 's fault leaving espn hope things improve next season cobra
mckee cs buffalo edu \( douglas mckee \) subject ghost sweeney 's past organization state university new york buffalo cedar research group lines 40 originator mckee cs buffalo edu nntp posting host cs buffalo edu wow , guy seems prove something old team , boston sweeney ask well , course bob sweeney , one boston let buffalo get hold \( still 2 makes things slightly confusing \) game winner ot game 1 , another big goal \( seconds fuhr made 3 point blank saves grant 5 rings ! ! ! \) put buffalo ahead 3rd yes , neely countered minute later , n't course buffalo going ahead tied shutting another great scoring opportunities , think boston would first win series well , sabres n't made end series yet , certainly feel 've got boston right want actually , 've got position neither buffalo boston felt would come one astronomical game fuhr , rest team \( team sport afterall \) think borque , neely , \( sp \? \) , company gonna swinging new stick \( weather perfect golf season \) real soon i'm gonna anything , 've seen really strange things happen pro college hockey talking golf hockey swing , golf swing baseball swing used last shot game khmylev deflected big one \? whole ot \( 1 minute ! \) buffalo 's ability really persistent grind end \( something n't necessarily regular season \) sabres pushed hard forced borque take opening seconds n't normally like penalties called ultra critical points , blatent finally , sabres faceoff \( n't hot dept rest game \) lafontaine puck 3 times took shot \( quite boomer , blue stopped one \) took steps get rebound slapped , without setting n't realize went announcer started screaming , score , score ! ! ! best seeing lafontaine jumping , skating little bit , jumping , skating brad may jumped doug mckee mckee cs buffalo edu
gjp sei cmu edu \( george pandelios \) subject cherry new pens \? organization software engineering institute lines 25 article d88 1 cs cmu edu , lli cs cmu edu \( lori iannamico \) writes cherry announcing penguins games yeah , \( quote pgh 's goofy mayor \) i'm queen well , majesty , \) , could n't picture \? cherry starts first post game interview barrasso tommy gives little look \( like somebody shoe \) proceeds give sher wood could put pay per view ! hope good laugh ! george george j pandelios internet gjp sei cmu edu software engineering institute usenet sei ! gjp 4500 fifth avenue voice \( 412 \) 268 7186 pittsburgh , pa 15213 fax \( 412 \) 268 5758 disclaimer opinions reflect software engineering institute , sponsors , customers , clients , affiliates , carnegie mellon university fact , resemblence opinions individual , living dead , fictional real , purely coincidental
dchhabra stpl ists ca \( deepak chhabra \) subject goalie masks nntp posting host stpl ists ca organization solar terresterial physics laboratory , ists lines 15 article acsu buffalo edu hammerl acsu buffalo edu \( valerie hammerl \) writes 'll give fuhr 's new one honourable mention , although n't seen closely yet \( looked good distance ! \) new buffalo one , second since 's sabres \? recall price tag 700 paint job mask , total price almost 1500 ouch yeah , 's second one believe price 've trying get good look bruin sabre telecasts , wow ! ever look good whoever paint job knew given fuhr 's play since got , bet bruins wishing n't \)
physics ubc ca \( bill scott \) subject trivia question organization university british columbia lines 27 distribution world nntp posting host physics ubc ca caj sei cmu edu \( carol jarosz \) writes watching penguins devils game last night , saw slash barrasso took neck brought mind goaltender jugular vein cut skate think sabre , i'm positive anyone remember know name \? happened since \? player whose skate cut goalie \? name \? info \? ever happened hockey game \? thanks , carol go pens ! remember reading article reader 's digest many moons ago similar incident minor game player neck cut opponent back checking tripped flew case victim 's mask proved since face protected n't bother usually instinctive reaction protect face neck quick thinking coach saved life applying direct pressure using snow contract blood vessels \( remember \) bill scott \( physics ubc ca \) go jets go
john michael santore jsbh andrew cmu edu subject hockey guest spots organization sophomore , mathematics , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 28 nntp posting host po4 andrew cmu edu reply 1993apr22 epas toronto edu hi guys i'm looking bit trivia appeared major talk shows tv \( e , letterman , carson , , etc e shows national nature include canadian equivalents think \) \? include nhl , olympic , world champion ship players i'm pretty sure 've seen gretzky lemieux , wondering others saw messier leetch shooting camera letterman \( \? \) could show though , since watch none late night shows regularly john santore philadelphia flyers '93 '94 ! break surface tension wild kinetic dreams rush , grand designs \( \) \) \) go philadelphia flyers ! john santore \( jsbh andrew cmu edu \) rush yes king crimson emerson , lake palmer marillion genesis \( w gabriel \)
franjion spot colorado edu \( john franjione \) subject 's roger \? nntp posting host spot colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 15 duncan \( nicholas duncan \) writes really feel need knowledgable hockey observer explain year 's playoffs mean , obviously superior toronto team best center best goalie league keeps losing gives \? unfortunately , roger r baseball spewing expertise \( e dickhead \) guess afraid posting anything , knows expect john franjione department chemical engineering university colorado , boulder franjion spot colorado edu
vax clarku edu subject cherry color man pens next year \? organization clark university lines 5 n't guy took shots jagr ulf recent sports illustrated \? i'm familiar cherry 's work , maybe 's known sarcasm , 'd wonder commentary pens bart
jca2 cec1 wustl edu \( joseph charles achkar \) subject trivia question nntp posting host cec1 organization washington university , st louis mo lines 20 article acsu buffalo edu hammerl acsu buffalo edu \( valerie hammerl \) writes tuttle longer blues , n't know possibly ihl , 'd best ask blues fan steve tuttle traded blues tb start season along pat jablonski , future considerations played milwaukee ihl , got traded tb que along michel 's currently playing halifax ahl \) l l e z l e b l u e ! ! ! joe ashkar contact blues saint louis jca2 cec1 wustl edu \( \) blues
clare ssd kodak com \( bill clare 726 9419 \) subject ulf crushes valeri zelepukin originator clare magpie organization eastman kodak lines 10 less says penguins game briefly saw ulf cross check valeri face wondering cherry going go coach 's corner bill clare , eastman kodak company internet clare kodak com c 901 road phone \( 716 \) 726 9419 rochester , new york opinions expressed herein belong employer
mitre org \( peter \) subject espn 's \( lack \) coverage reply jpc philabs philips com 's message 20 apr 93 13 44 39 edt lines 19 nntp posting host mitre org organization mitre corporation 1993apr20 philabs philips com distribution na lines 23 article 1993apr20 philabs philips com jpc philabs philips com \( john p curcio \) writes worst thing exactly last year rangers msg , two different games scny sca time yes , 'd rather sc cover , amount coverage year game scny , game sca , game espn , rangers n't crashed burned , would game msg complaining \? seem recall last year everyone complaining sc coverage even remember games shown dc area instead hockey sc failed show conclusion games feature game \? sound familiar \? year i'm getting twice coverage see caps games plus games espn shows think 's great hockey back espn imho , 're great job especially considering baseball contract work around peter mitre org
kkeller mail sas upenn edu \( keith keller \) subject potvin stick organization university pennsylvania , school arts sciences lines 30 nntp posting host mail sas upenn edu article 9 0 sscl uwo ca sscl uwo ca writes article msuinfo cl msu edu egr msu edu \( terminator \) writes egr msu edu \( terminator \) felix potvin deserves sh kicked anyone hitting stick , defensemen ca n't seem move big dino \( 180 lbs \) front net obviously toronto realized wings must rely trying superior red wings cheap shots prefer watch hockey seeing shots felix potvin slashing spearing dino standing front net every right stand front net , crease ! yes , , goalie sure hell n't want ! played roller hockey \( boy miss days \) goalie , would scream defense clear guys slot n't care 's crease , get hell away see ball ! \( yes , roller hockey , remember \) nobody around clear slot , 'd pushing offending player hard hate people way i'm goalie , sure felix say n't see incident , potvin really swung stick big time , 's right , move people way 's player ice , know \) keith keller let's go rangers ! ! ! ! ! kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs ! ! ! ! corner let's go quakers ! ! ! ! ! weighing almost every weight imaginable life , surrounds blues traveler , 1993
maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) subject 's knowledgeable observer \? organization dept computer science , laurentian university , sudbury , lines 33 franjion spot colorado edu franjion spot colorado edu \( john franjione \) writes duncan \( nicholas duncan \) writes really feel need knowledgable hockey observer explain year 's playoffs mean , obviously superior toronto team best center best goalie league keeps losing gives \? unfortunately , roger r baseball spewing expertise \( e dickhead \) guess afraid posting anything , knows expect indeed nice fans concerned dissertation linked simply damned busy lately keep entertained sure , however , somehow manage find time woof leafs give cause let 's try keep people 's names \( especially mine \) subject headers , one , neither seek enjoy cheap form one thing assured , however , leafs best teams league allowed 12 goals 2 games cordially , always , maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca many morons rm little time
huot cray com \( tom huot \) subject pens fans reactions lines 26 nntp posting host pittpa cray com organization cray research inc x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 richard j coyle \( gomer pitt edu \) wrote 's inner calm 's boredom , 's spoiled arena 's quiet church many nights year many us take winning granted 's seemingly forever since team lost , 've forgotten 's like feel real excitement surprise victory least last night excitement pens n't wrapped game half like previous two games i'm sure nj rose played better penguins started play somewhat probably somewhere new jersey seemed much aggressive last night pens end much around , least kept element game question billington helped make interesting also claude lemieux n't help cause though , early game , 's going start devils goal final game sunday \? \) sorry could n't help tom huot huot cray com
huot cray com \( tom huot \) subject bowman needs credit lines 32 nntp posting host pittpa cray com organization cray research inc x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 gerald olchowy \( golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \) wrote bowman genius johnson n't bowman great coach johnson , good one however , bowman really modern coach , patrick 's solution run team game days , delegate day day assistants shrewd managerial decision patrick 's part imho bowman perfect coach group players time johnson perfect coach two years ago group players would say lucky pittsburgh order coaches came one \( excluding unfortunate circumstances brought change \) immense talent penguins roster year , tougher bowman keeps egos check johnson hand , able inspire younger , inexperienced players new heights coaches different strengths came exactly right time another person also mentioned bowman perfect coach time since nobody argue decisions argue coach best record hockey anyway \? playing great coach like demands respect also keeps egos check couple ideas tom huot huot cray com
ccu umanitoba ca \( jean paul \) subject stats nntp posting host ccu umanitoba ca organization university manitoba , winnipeg , manitoba , canada lines 8 hello , could someone tell could find faceoff stats 91 92 season later 92 93 \( think early get \) thanks lot jp
brifre1 ac dal ca subject trivia question organization dalhousie university , halifax , nova scotia , canada lines 20 article 1993apr23 102811 623 sei cmu edu , caj sei cmu edu \( carol jarosz \) writes watching penguins devils game last night , saw slash barrasso took neck brought mind goaltender jugular vein cut skate think sabre , i'm positive anyone remember know name \? happened since \? player whose skate cut goalie \? name \? info \? ever happened hockey game \? thanks , carol go pens ! clint malarchuk whatever happened , anyway \? barfly go sigh leafs cry
john michael santore jsbh andrew cmu edu subject goalie mask poll update 4 22 93 organization sophomore , mathematics , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 28 2431 canisius edu nntp posting host po2 andrew cmu edu reply 2431 canisius edu anyone voting john blue best goalie mask poll shot site , questions asked \) c'mon 's black mask , yellow paint along opening totally plain vanilla ! heh , someone mentioned tommy soderstrom \( flyers \) mask poll \( mentioned part \) plain white helmet big cage found pretty amusing john santore philadelphia flyers '93 '94 ! break surface tension wild kinetic dreams rush , grand designs \( \) \) \) go philadelphia flyers ! john santore \( jsbh andrew cmu edu \) rush yes king crimson emerson , lake palmer marillion genesis \( w gabriel \)
sei cmu edu \( thomas \) subject hockey equip recommendations \? keywords hockey organization software engineering institute lines 23 hey man ! spent past season learning skate played couple sessions mock hockey , i'm ready invest hockey equipment \( particularly since taking summer \) however , completely profoundly ignorant comes hockey equipment 've checked local stores looked catalogs , hoping solicit opinions suggestions actually money played football high school college least equipment basis comparison example advantages disadvantages different kinds shoulder pads pants \? notoriously bad unsafe brands styles \? etc suggestions comments would greatly appreciated tom 're swimming creek software engineering institute bites cheek , carnegie mellon university 's ! pittsburgh , pa fabulous freak bros
gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) subject espn 's \( lack \) coverage nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) organization phds hall distribution na lines 23 mitre org \( peter \) writes jpc philabs philips com \( john p curcio \) writes worst thing exactly last year yes , 'd rather sc cover , amount coverage year game scny , game sca , game espn , rangers n't crashed burned , would game msg complaining \? problem \( fault espn \) ongoing games covered 'til final horn sounds two channels , scny sca , late finishing games \( pacific time \) elsewhere kick end local coverage scny blocked mets , still hockey sca \( scny plus \) espn 2 , current situation would alleviated gld je souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go ! ! ! gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
spiegel msd lmsc lockheed com \( mark spiegel \) subject sharks kingston fired ! ! ! organization personal opinions inc lines 89 article 1993apr23 csd newshost stanford edu nlu xenon stanford edu \( nelson lu \) writes article 1993apr22 iscnvx lmsc lockheed com spiegel msd lmsc lockheed com \( mark spiegel \) writes article 1993apr21 2880 csd newshost stanford edu nlu xenon stanford edu \( nelson lu \) writes said gund open , n't say give draft picks promising talent could gotten murphy 2m great , agree sharks n't give young talent early round draft picks listed chelios et al indicate type player think sharks need pick rules signing free agents less 30 years old puts big restriction sharks pick however , believer need pick players add toughness team remember 're unlikely get real quality free agents require compensation sharks tried , makarov , probably top class among non compensation free agents , even probably would n't helped much n't expect get top quality , toughness n't view makarov player would add toughness size hopefully wo n't much worry next year alexander michal agreed multi year contracts , appears mike also sign soon three pretty big size alone n't enough know much fear kolstad \( 6 6 \) struck eyes opponents ! well , highly touted prospects , unlike kolstad initially supposed play russian wc team \( anybody know happened \? \) means 's likely good enough nelson , 're confusing skill toughness mcgill hammond johan garpenlov would really rather two instead johan \? logic enjoy falloon ozolinsh injured reserve \? logic think sharks kept mcgill hammond guarantee falloon ozolinsh would n't gotten hurt \? \( think chance mcgill would caused ozolinsh get stuck kc , know , hammond worthless , mcgill almost worthless \) well , wilson , maybe , n't think falloon ozolinsh really injured said \? n't , n't see justification mcgill hammond around would prevent injuries injuries falloon ozolinsh purely accidental , could mcgill hammond done prevent \? hey , get mcgill hammond thing i'm fan either point last year sharks toughness missing year year skill , i'm , skill players keep getting beat injured ca n't much good whether 's cheap shot ca n't let teams push around 1992 93 sharks simply got pushed around much teams knew knew could aggressively check sharks pay adding players season add toughness team help insure next season teams vigorously check skill players , take cheap shots n't guarantee injuries \( nothing \) , 's something sharks reduce number injuries mark say mark spiegel spiegel lmsc lockheed com cow palace 108 k 8 \?
subject hockey guest spots paul h pimentel pp3903a auvm american edu organization american university university computing center lines 4 two years ago mark messier appeared david letterman summer signed wit h rangers remember mike gartner taking camera , one finally bullseye screen went blank funny saw , guess
joe13 pitt edu \( joseph b stiehm \) subject lemieux 's getting hart jeez hope ! organization university pittsburgh lines 32 article 22apr93 02956996 0062 unbvm1 csd unb ca f1hh unb ca \( patrick walker \) writes get hart \? mario jesus ! 's bad enough utter word without extremely sick pissed guy 's ten minutes give f king break mario best player ever ! gretzky die \? wish bobby clarke condone violence , 'll make exception mario mario going complain hit , someone give scotty something real complain sorry ramble see hate mario pat walker unb n't kill beav well eddie might get trouble 's gun beav , shoot , beav well ok eddie wally 're trouble
joe13 pitt edu \( joseph b stiehm \) subject ranger fans \? \? \? \? \? organization university pittsburgh lines 16 article 1993apr22 101356 1 eagle wesleyan edu kwolfer eagle wesleyan edu writes far stanley cup goes think 's one team test pittsburgh 's detroit would entertaining hard fought series mario amazing ! kurt mario makes pat walker sounds like type would bring ak 47 game take pot shots mario \( stand still dam \) joseph stiehm
gtd597a prism gatech edu \( hrivnak \) subject espn organization georgia institute technology lines 13 article andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu \( chad nicholas hunter \) writes live pittsburgh \( yes i'm pens fan \) hockey gets lot coverage imagine caps fan residing texas must feel caps fan residing atlanta , dont even tell f \( cking playoff scores news ! ! ! ! ! go skins ! next question emotional music quite go braves ! effect \? mike patton , faith go hornets ! go capitals ! mike friedman \( hrivnak fan ! \) internet gtd597a prism gatech edu
klaty engin umich edu \( brad alan klaty \) subject potvin stick organization university michigan engineering , ann arbor lines 11 distribution world nntp posting host engin umich edu originator klaty engin umich edu potvin pound dino , happens dino pounds \? dino gets legs slashed , slash potvin return \? year um lssu hockey game , um player called slash hit goalie 's glove stick slashing , hitting someone 's n't \? refs know call \? goalies get liberties players \? brad
joe13 pitt edu \( joseph b stiehm \) subject hockey guest spots organization university pittsburgh lines 15 sclark epas utoronto ca \( susan clark \) writes i'm looking answer bit trivia appeared major talk shows tv examples deleted i'm pretty sure 've seen gretzky lemieux , wondering others michael j fox letterman year ago \( two \) playoffs hockey player bruins 's exactly mention bruins wanted break ulfie 's legs \( something like \) response neely incident quite amusing , one letterman viewers actually knew talking anybody know pens hockey player \? michael douglas \( aka michael \) \? joseph stiehm
kkeller mail sas upenn edu \( keith keller \) subject trivia question organization university pennsylvania , school arts sciences lines 18 nntp posting host mail sas upenn edu brought vein malarchuk \? saw happened wanted throw , time devastated , since thought malarchuk would n't survive btw , believe picked alcohol problem \( \? \) incident radically change subject , caps must nightmares isles overtime playoffs ever beaten islanders playoff ot game \? lunacy caps sorry team playoffs , consistently choke opponents beating losing two ot games row coincidence , 's evidence choke factor keith keller let's go rangers ! ! ! ! ! kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs ! ! ! ! corner let's go quakers ! ! ! ! ! weighing almost every weight imaginable life , surrounds blues traveler , 1993
lmarsha cms cc wayne edu \( laurie marshall \) subject 's roger \? organization wayne state university , detroit mi u lines 25 nntp posting host cms cc wayne edu article franjion spot colorado edu franjion spot colorado edu \( john franjione \) writes unfortunately , roger r baseball spewing expertise \( e dickhead \) guess afraid posting anything , knows expect john franjione department chemical engineering university colorado , boulder franjion spot colorado edu hey , could start new game net 's called 's roger \? ' 's similiar 's waldo \? ' instead finding waldo picture people , try find roger newsgroup net predict 'll r basketball pro next laurie marshall wayne state university detroit , michigan go wings ! ! ! !
joe13 pitt edu \( joseph b stiehm \) subject tv coverage nhl blame ! organization university pittsburgh lines 46 article 1993apr23 ns1 cc lehigh edu ns1 cc lehigh edu \( steven jay \) writes mario michael jordan hockey fall ice closet guy gets least 2 last night 3rd game nj pitt , pushed skating across front goal trying get shot guy good job , got weak shot , decided fall ice fucking ref \( van \? \) called guy holding replayed play , roomate \( clueless hockey \) wanted know nj guy get call , fucking obvious nj player hands stick , , trip simple , mario gets touched , falls ice , automatic 2 thing really pissed , pitt scored 3rd 4th goal , n't remember , resulting pp eventually 4 3 diving calls makes huge difference outcome game agreeing disagreeing replies welcomed steve must watching two different games devil one hand mario 's elbow pulling elbow caused mario fall call appropriate using clueless people substantiate claims n't give lot confidence call either next time consider getting second opinion observer maybe available disagreed joseph stiehm
hamilton edu \( mary \) subject ranger fans \? \? \? \? \? organization hamilton college clinton , ny distribution na lines 90 article 1993apr22 101356 1 eagle wesleyan edu kwolfer eagle wesleyan edu writes one happy ranger 's hiring keenan 's bad agree keenan excellent choice see mike lupica 's column sunday 's news \? sentiments exactly think may one hunger fire hearts next season either 's going kicking alot butt ! reading hockey news n't see many ranger fans writing i'm , new group keeping fairly quiet \( know , lurking thing \) n't sense many rangers fans list either die hard ranger fan \( guess sat garden throughout led mario 's 5 goals 4 9 \) , sick abundance talent totally , lack heart displayed season final questions way team handled last dreadful stretch 1 knowing needed offensive help blueline , n't see mike hurlbut , played pretty well called leetch first went \? hurlbut injured quite i'm sure , think may recovered time playoff run , , like , question n't used 2 \? \? \? \? ! ! ! ! ! joe kocur playing every night \? bob probert tough also play believe kocur used , many instances , intimidation factor granted , seemed get awful lot ice time reason alone , realize team real physical intimidation \( 'd like nickel every time j said 'they 've got take body \) , 've got least illusions \( 3 come paul broten relegated street clothes end season least plays heart character , draws penalties plays 110 's ice doghouse reason \? agree n't know 4 joe \? \? \? \? \? ! ! ! ! enough said ! sorry , n't agree think c good job filling asked ca n't imagine 's easy going near 0 ice time full timer n't seem remember turning puck blue line much , failing clear zone worked hard , least n't make rookie mistakes said interview , give ranger fans may suffering 're loyal , unlike islander fans show team wins absolutely think attendance garden better last day season , average night islanders fought series mario amazing ! man awesome way , i'm enjoying playoffs , rangers n't really appreciate glory mario getting without 's opposing team deserves , far i'm concerned mary mary hamilton edu hamilton college clinton , n go rangers ! ! \( next year \)
jennifer netcom com \( jennifer ! \) subject tv coverage nhl blame ! organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 14 ns1 cc lehigh edu \( steven jay \) writes tv coverage playoffs fucking overtime time games shown \? hell kind shit \? would happened flyers \( damn playoffs begin \) watching , would gone throught roof ! read tv guide , 's article next week 's concerning nhl major network broadcasting pretty interesting jennifer
aludra usc edu \( jonathan barrett \) subject 's knowledgeable observer \? organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 19 nntp posting host aludra usc edu maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) writes one thing assured , however , leafs best teams league allowed 12 goals 2 games cordially , always , maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca many morons rm little time roger , check facts posting ! kings 12 goals 2 games jon
allan cs ualberta ca \( allan sullivan \) subject ulf nntp posting host swanlake cs ualberta ca organization university alberta , edmonton , canada lines 27 drozinst db erau edu \( drozinski tim \) writes aluminum stick taken ulf 's head gonna solve problem violence sport hockey hell say guy goon justify , back mentality \? saying hurting player solve anyone 's problems new rules new referee system need instituted right , many real goons get away much , ref watching play \( supposed 've seen van hellemond , name , heads asses calls \) rather keeping eye behind play even linesmen able call penalties , would improvement unfortunately , way league heading ca n't fight , way retaliate someone cheap shot ref n't looking ulf brought high level players stuck past \( like neely \) prefer fights cheap shots disadvantage new system lets face , cheap shot \( like high sticking \) effective method easier hide refs , better chance causing injury , draw people fights way n't like , 's way league going way , rather good hit ulf last penguin devil game managed hit nj player face stick \( must legal hit , ulf clean player allowed things like \)
allan cs ualberta ca \( allan sullivan \) subject oiler 's rumour team moving \? press conference next week organization university alberta , edmonton , canada lines 23 nntp posting host swanlake cs ualberta ca heard story local sports news broadcast edmonton oiler owner peter pocklington holding press conference next week exact details known , believed concern oiler 's future rumour pocklington signed tentative lease arrangement hamilton press conference , pocklington may announce deal quite possible deal may simply way force edmonton northlands oiler lease stadium northlands offered buy oilers 65 million earlier , offer rejected immediately pocklington , opinion divided edmonton fairly supportive oilers even though 're small market team , many sellouts 80s even problems team year , still brought fans many teams larger cities hand , team move , place deserving hamilton course , would affect grand realignment scheme bettman \?
c5ff jupiter sun csd unb ca \( cook charlie \) subject nhl summary parse results games played tue , april 20 , 1993 organization university new brunswick lines 133 ny islanders 1 1 2 0 1 5 washington 0 2 2 0 0 4 first period 1 , ny islanders , turgeon 1 \( king , thomas \) 13 14 second period 2 , washington , hunter 3 \( johansson , miller \) 6 33 3 , ny islanders , turgeon 2 \( thomas , vaske \) 12 36 4 , washington , hunter 4 \( johansson , carpenter \) pp , 16 51 third period 5 , ny islanders , hogue 1 \( unassisted \) 3 31 6 , washington , khristich 2 \( cavallini , bondra \) 7 16 7 , ny islanders , ferraro 2 \( flatley , hogue \) 14 50 8 , washington , hunter 5 \( johansson , khristich \) pp , 19 57 first overtime scoring second overtime 9 , ny islanders , mullen 1 \( ferraro , flatley \) 14 50 ny islanders 5 power play 5 0 scorer g pts ferraro 1 1 2 flatley 0 2 2 hogue 1 1 2 king 0 1 1 mullen 1 0 1 thomas 0 2 2 turgeon 2 0 2 vaske 0 1 1 washington 4 power play 5 2 scorer g pts bondra 0 1 1 carpenter 0 1 1 cavallini 0 1 1 hunter 3 0 3 johansson 0 3 3 khristich 1 1 2 miller 0 1 1 montreal 0 0 1 1 quebec 3 0 1 4 first period 1 , quebec , leschyshyn 1 \( kamensky , sakic \) pp , 4 19 2 , quebec , young 2 \( lapointe \) 11 41 3 , quebec , young 3 \( lapointe , duchesne \) 13 56 second period scoring third period 4 , montreal , bellows 2 \( odelein \) 11 05 5 , quebec , lapointe 1 \( ricci \) en , 19 23 quebec 4 power play 2 1 special goals pp 1 en 1 total 2 scorer g pts duchesne 0 1 1 kamensky 0 1 1 lapointe 1 2 3 leschyshyn 1 0 1 ricci 0 1 1 sakic 0 1 1 young 2 0 2 montreal 1 power play 1 0 scorer g pts bellows 1 0 1 odelein 0 1 1 new jersey 0 0 0 0 pittsburgh 2 4 1 7 first period 1 , pittsburgh , mceachern 1 \( francis , taglianetti \) 15 09 2 , pittsburgh , lemieux 3 \( samuelsson , barrasso \) sh , 17 41 second period 3 , pittsburgh , tocchet 2 \( stevens , samuelsson \) 3 48 4 , pittsburgh , jagr 2 \( francis , ramsey \) 12 39 5 , pittsburgh , stevens 1 \( francis , murphy \) pp , 15 43 6 , pittsburgh , mceachern 2 \( daniels , mullen \) 16 56 third period 7 , pittsburgh , mullen 1 \( francis , barrasso \) 17 42 pittsburgh 7 power play 4 1 special goals pp 1 sh 1 total 2 scorer g pts barrasso 0 2 2 daniels 0 1 1 francis 0 4 4 jagr 1 0 1 lemieux 1 0 1 mceachern 2 0 2 mullen 1 1 2 murphy 0 1 1 ramsey 0 1 1 samuelsson 0 2 2 stevens 1 1 2 taglianetti 0 1 1 tocchet 1 0 1 new jersey 0 power play 5 0 scoring buffalo 2 1 1 4 boston 0 0 0 0 first period 1 , buffalo , presley 1 \( unassisted \) sh , 4 27 2 , buffalo , wood 1 \( , sweeney \) pp , 8 07 second period 3 , buffalo , mogilny 3 \( lafontaine \) 5 03 third period 4 , buffalo , hawerchuk 1 \( carney , smehlik \) pp , 14 48 buffalo 4 power play 4 2 special goals pp 2 sh 1 total 3 scorer g pts carney 0 1 1 hawerchuk 1 0 1 lafontaine 0 1 1 mogilny 1 0 1 0 1 1 presley 1 0 1 smehlik 0 1 1 sweeney 0 1 1 wood 1 0 1 boston 0 power play 5 0 scoring
mikkot romulus math jyu fi \( mikko tarkiainen \) subject wc 93 results , april 18 nntp posting host romulus math jyu fi organization university jyvaskyla , finland lines 42 article 1993apr21 ericsson se etxonss ufsa ericsson se \( staffan axelsson \) writes ok , try czech republic goaltenders 1 petr briza \( finland somewhere , right \? \) , finland \( look colors mask \) defense 3 leo \? ex jypht , finland , germany excellent defenseman 5 \? , finland 14 jiri kucera \? tappara , finland 19 tomas \? hpk , finland 20 \( finland \? \) jokerit , finland 24 \? hpk , finland 26 jiri dolezal \? jypht , finland , new contract jypht owns player rights czechs \( , dolezal anymore \) good hockey players big surprise selected dolezal dole bad season jypht 's n't make new contract czech , jiri , got fired also lots czechs playing finland darius , igor , , svoboda ,
golf phoenix oulu fi \( jouko kylmaoja \) subject german audience lunatic \? \? organization university oulu , finland x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 17 watched game germany czechs wc today astonished behaviour german audience ! german team got penalties last period crowd went ! threw coins , extra pucks trash rink stupid \? \? guess canadian referee \( one bros \) gave german team penalty , n't help much guess germans proud nazi kill 'em everyone us germans sucks attitude seem kind attitude every possible sport \( remember european champs stockholm soccer \) really pisses ! mean every single german attitude sucks , seem jokke kylmaoja golf phoenix oulu fi
delarocq eos ncsu edu \( derrell emery larocque \) subject words advice stars hater originator delarocq 100lez eos ncsu edu reply delarocq eos ncsu edu \( derrell emery larocque \) organization north carolina state university , project eos lines 37 advice , thoughts hatred minnesota north stars 1 real team like toronto would moved , right , eliminated playoffs first round ! 2 stay minnesota go college western ontario actually take classes map reading specifically set 3 anyone love stars , hating leafs much better \? 4 oh , i'm sorry well , maybe ca n't understand big words next time 'll limit vocabulary words like get real team waste time 5 respond article love laugh humor , even though unintentional got big kick go leafs go go \? home , think ! ! \) delarocq eos ncsu edu 1988 , 1989 , 1990 , 1991 afc east division champions 1991 , 1992 , 1993 afc conference champions ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! \) squished fish monday night football , november 16 , 1992 squished trash talking fish afc championship , january 17 , 1992 buffalo bills fan , email delarocq eos ncsu edu talk games , insight , etc fan , let know interested news green bay
lmcmasc noah ericsson se \( mauro \) subject bruins reply lmcmasc noah ericsson se organization ericsson communication inc lines 1 nntp posting host lmc ericsson se x disclaimer article posted user ericsson opinions expressed strictly user necessarily ericsson could anyone post game summary sabres bruins game
cobra chopin udel edu \( king cobra \) subject espn nntp posting host chopin udel edu organization university delaware lines 66 article 1993apr20 wkuvx1 bitnet kozloce wkuvx1 bitnet writes jesus christ ! ! ! score 6 0 pens beating shit devils gave middle 2nd period espn something smart announcer states well folks game getting hand lets go islander capitals game celebrate actually making progress cs homework bored scheduled game tear throw jersey , hunter scores go ape shit 'cause first caps game 've able watch season espn \? go back blowout nj n't chance hell winning ! period ends sportscaster \( tied ! ! yes ! ! oops excuse \) goes penguin worship mode \( dont freak pens fans ! worthy ! i'm glad wont play much next year ! \) comes 3rd period \? blowout oh waiting cap isles get intermission good 've put close game back wait ! whats shit \? ! ! they're showing blowout ! ! \( oh guess score 7 0 penguins ! switch games ! ! ! \) holy shit 're changing games ! time ! ! lets see 'll stay later think proves point caps game goes overtime due contractual obligations switch fucking baseball \( sorry language im pissed ! \) hell going scheduled game went overtime \? espn get head ass know lot first think espn covers game wonderful job , last night felt way really hate watching devils pens game everyone knows devils going get ass kicked , even bother showing bored espn people n't seem brain sundays last night games , still going show devils pens thu sun hell thinking \? think keep like nhl never get major network contract 'd rather see caps game exciting hope baseball games rained espn atleast get diffrent hockey games experience makes person make new mistakes instead old one e mail cobra chopin udel edu
cc bellcore com \( michael \( \) \) subject 77 's \? organization bellcore , livingston , nj lines 16 article 1r23on 4p6 bigboote wpi edu , ching bigwpi wpi edu \( logistician \) writes need players wearing 77 nhl know one , ray borque bruins help would greatly appreciated thanx logistician reigns supreme ! ! ! go blue ! ! ! go tigers ! ! ! go pistons ! ! ! go lions ! ! ! go red wings ! ! ! ching wpi wpi edu pierre turgeon islanders mike
nhmas gauss med harvard edu \( mark shneyder 432 4219 \) subject abc coverage organization hms lines 28 distribution usa nntp posting host gauss med harvard edu article bu edu icop csa bu edu \( antonio pera \) writes loved abc coverage production excellent appearance antonio , n't alone abc ratings good hear abc 's telecast fifth watched sporting event weekend national rating came respectable 3 3 top 29 nielsen markets 2 9 boston , game scored lower 2 4 local sports teams quite frankly , expected abc 's ratings 2 0 i'm happy proven wrong ! well , well sometimes pays clicking away cable tv remote control \) happen hockey fan , could stumble upon playoff hockey game espn picked detroit toronto game monday night night game mlb rained chicago give espn credit switching detroit 's fox 50 coverage bill clement pittsburgh 's tv station \( wate \? \) intermission analysis maybe , espn people night abc ratings sunday 's telecast thought good idea feature norris division rather monster truck good move , espn ! ppv mark
tmavor earthview cms udel edu \( tim gun hire \) subject espn nntp posting host pandora cms udel edu reply tmavor earthview cms udel edu organization marine studies , university delaware lines 24 various justifiable rantings espn coverage several deleted way change espn 's thinking , even possible , complain directly anyone know telephone bristol , ct \? find hard believe espn n't think viewers simply change channel boring game know , n't show nyi wash overtime \( \) , ! wanted watch baseball , could turned phillies padres extra inning game instead , went bed angry espn 's morning sportscenter today , still incensed wife says n't go bed angry , last nite ! tim known many names college marine studies call tim univ delaware newark , de know much hidden , o' tim ! tmavor pandora cms udel edu monty python holy grail
cs bgsu edu \( laura \) subject info world hockey championships organization bowling green state university lines 7 anyone information world hockey championships specifically us team \? game summaries stats would greatly appreciated ! ! usa today reported us beat czech republic , limit story thanks laura
nhmas gauss med harvard edu \( mark shneyder 432 4219 \) subject abc coverage organization hms lines 12 distribution usa nntp posting host gauss med harvard edu article blue cis pitt edu shah pitt edu \( shah \) writes exactly biggest complaint coverage far follow damn puck ! espn abc going stick one sided pens devils series \( looks like continue thursday night \) , 'd rather watch pretty women stands non action ice slow , aging nj team taken lunch dynamic pens squad ppv mark
nhmas gauss med harvard edu \( mark shneyder 432 4219 \) subject espn sucks ot baseball \? guess organization hms lines 12 nntp posting host gauss med harvard edu article ccu umanitoba ca umturne4 ccu umanitoba ca \( daryl turner \) writes showing meaningless \( relatively \) baseball game overtime game tied less 3 seconds left clock \? gimme break ! espn get brilliant decisions \? 's called major league baseball would 've liked see ot isles caps game , understand espn coming espn committed single telecast night everything bonus ppv mark
lmarsha cms cc wayne edu \( laurie marshall \) subject trivia habs \? organization wayne state university , detroit mi u lines 22 nntp posting host cms cc wayne edu article news cso uiuc edu uxa cso uiuc edu \( lord vader \) writes ok , i'm sure asked 100 's times , wondered since heard hell nickname habs come montreal canadiens \? thanks advance , schneider answer faq group said laurie marshall wayne state university detroit , michigan go wings ! ! ! ! !
nhmas gauss med harvard edu \( mark shneyder 432 4219 \) subject schedule organization hms lines 9 nntp posting host gauss med harvard edu article appserv eng sun com mre teal eng sun com \( mike eisler \) writes ny , nj , philadelphia , chicago everywhere else , reason sportschannel available local baseball broadcasts local baseball pre empted nhl playoffs thus far good point baseball local nba basketball games took precedence sca 's nhl playoff coverage ppv mark
lmarsha cms cc wayne edu \( laurie marshall \) subject red wings organization wayne state university , detroit mi u lines 14 nntp posting host cms cc wayne edu article 1993apr21 wuecl wustl edu cec2 wustl edu \( michael sy \) writes n't forget paul ysebaert , ex devil 's good team player dino ciccarelli ray sheppard \) laurie marshall wayne state university detroit , michigan go wings ! ! ! !
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject wings win organization university toronto chemistry department lines 47 article ragraca vela acs oakland edu ragraca vela acs oakland edu \( randy graca \) writes 's true vancouver make playoffs many year quinn came , years smythe division lot mean lot tougher division norris , also known , division vancouver play edmonton calgary , legitimate stanley cup contenders , eight times year , detroit got play toronto minnesota , edmonton hardly even force league , smythe even mighty san jose sharks , 's fighting words hardly force geez miss playoffs 15 years , even making final four 3 times last five years , everyone thinks period time vancouver improving , everybody norris \( except st louis \) detroit improve keep competition division improve lot get better competition norris bryan murray inherited team little talent really good players , yzerman , burr , probert , \( doubt dispute whether burr probert good \) rest either green rookies washed veterans reason got far years murray came due coaching demers , , least first , got every last ounce effort possible team , even coaching began degrade fedorov , primeau , kozlov , lidstrom , , konstantinov , drake , kennedy , racine , cheveldae already pipeline due devellano murray inherited guys addition yzerman , probert , carson , chiasson , etc number reasons detroit n't bad shape standings wise murray took quinn took , outlined , murray better personnel work outset quinn , exception yzerman one player cannot alone make team stanley cup contender , i'm sure everyone reading agree quinn far less murray took detroit time take advantage devellano 's good drafting devellano given demers request make oates trade , might still gm gerald
jack petrilli rose com \( jack petrilli \) subject bruins x gated usenet rosemail gateway \( v1 70 \) organization rose media inc , toronto , ontario lines 21 april 23 , mckee cs buffalo edu \( douglas mckee \) wrote \( doomed division i'm still convinced \( sabres win series \( 've lived buffalo life , \( last 10 years playoff hell \) , i'm sitting \( back , crossing fingers hoping offense keep scoring fear , doug , bruins toast statistically , 2 teams stanley cup series ever played come back win could n't happened nicer team , boston fans 've endure last month take heart , bruins fans least finished first adams sinister chuckle jack laugh world thinks 're idiot rosereader 2 10 entered rose rosemail 2 10 rosenet usenet gateway rose media 416 733 2285
jack petrilli rose com \( jack petrilli \) subject bruins x gated usenet rosemail gateway \( v1 70 \) organization rose media inc , toronto , ontario lines 16 april 23 , suned cs yale edu \( wanna know \? \) wrote w w see ! providence bruins lost first two games home came back w tie series road , may hope bruins yet ! toast 're toast \( know much want eat words , ai n't gonna happen \) golf courses boston area condition yet \? jack acid consumes 47 times weight life ! rosereader 2 10 entered rose rosemail 2 10 rosenet usenet gateway rose media 416 733 2285
jack petrilli rose com \( jack petrilli \) subject habs win , habs win ! ! ! x gated usenet rosemail gateway \( v1 70 \) organization rose media inc , toronto , ontario lines 36 april 23 , jbe5 jbe5 musicb mcgill ca wrote j j ! j j game , finally beat ! j habs dominated game especially realize dominated game 1 also ahead series 2 1 \? j plagued bad luck puck would n't bounce j way got lucky break , winning goal j went 's skate thank lord ! ! ! ! ! ! 's time ! hit 2 posts overtime 1 post game 1 's overtime let 's hope start getting luck change played well game roy 's inconsistency still makes nervous otherwise , 'd say 're going win series , sweat 's patrick roy provide consistent goaltending j damn bruins lost , 3 0 congratulations j buffalo ! ! j j life n't get better ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! agreed g jack tagline bad missing carrier rosereader 2 10 entered rose rosemail 2 10 rosenet usenet gateway rose media 416 733 2285
etxonss ufsa ericsson se \( staffan axelsson \) subject 93 nntp posting host uipc104 ericsson se organization ericsson telecom , stockholm , sweden distribution lines 94 hockey , v ren 1993 av hockey 1993 per ! ! ! ! 1 per 15 2 lars andersson 13 3 anders engwall 11 4 staffan axelsson 10 patrik 10 6 hannu l 9 khan 9 8 cs tut fi 8 jan stein 8 roger 8 11 lars aarhus 7 fredrik 7 marek 7 lars 7 15 lennart 6 och av en r per , som 92 vid men som sedan ge vika f r anders engwall de f den fr ga 1 4 sm till bryn var det v l sv rt att men man att om den j mna lule och bryn ist hade till lule f , hade det fall h r f de anger som hade anger per rad 1 elitserien 1 1 den 1 v \( 7 \) 2 bryn \( 2 \) 3 malm \( 4 \) 4 f \( 5 \) 5 modo \( 6 \) 6 lule \( 6 \) 7 leksand \( 2 \) 8 \( 2 \) 9 hv 71 \( 11 \) 10 r gle \( 12 \) 1 2 4 av de 8 g r till semifinal \? \( 4 \) lule \( 9 \) bryn \( 6 \) malm \( 13 \) 1 3 2 lag ts final \? lule \( 5 \) bryn \( 4 \) 1 4 blir stare 92 93 \? \( 3p \) bryn \( 4 \) 2 allsvenskan 1 v stra fr \( 11 \) 2 \( 3 \) 3 bj \( 5 \) 4 aik \( 5 \) 9 team g \( 1 \) 10 \( 0 \) \( \( staffan axelsson etxonss ufsa ericsson se \) \) r h contact swedish hockey
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject buffalo 4 , boston 0 defense ! ! organization university toronto chemistry department lines 16 article 1993apr21 ncsu edu delarocq eos ncsu edu \( derrell emery larocque \) writes tonight boston , buffalo sabres blanked boston bruins 4 0 tonight boston looks like boston hang season , buffalo 's home record awesome ! ! ! ! great buffalo fans might get see revenge last year ! ! ! ! ! \) i'm glad grant fuhr never confident two wins takes four wins defeat opponent tougher obtain previous one buffalo good start fuhr proving fuhr bashers wrong , boston awfully good team gerald
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject bruins organization university toronto chemistry department lines 6 article 1993apr21 exu ericsson se lmcmasc noah ericsson se writes could anyone post game summary sabres bruins game grant fuhr rules ! \) gerald
mre teal eng sun com \( mike eisler \) subject sharks jack feirerra \( sharks kingston fired ! ! ! \) organization sun microsystems , mountain view , ca usa lines 87 nntp posting host teal article 1993apr23 csd newshost stanford edu nlu xenon stanford edu \( nelson lu \) writes article appserv eng sun com mre teal eng sun com \( mike eisler \) writes n't think trading kisio intrinsically mistake however , trading 3rd round pick would worth lot 3rd round pick playoff team fact , would intimate offers sharks got year kisio way greater 3rd round pick hindsight 's 20 20 nobody expected kisio 2nd best career year besides , without kisio , sharks would even earlier season , gund might gotten little serious getting joe murphy , guy definitely would around 3 5 years sharks make playoffs else could done \? offered 2 million murphy , oilers wanted prospect \( \) , sharks declined give , think correct n't mean imply gund 's offer n't enough gund 's offer right , late season 2m offered november lets sather buy replacement murphy season make playoffs year 2m march n't help sather immediate objectives , n't help long term objectives \( prospect draft pick , way sharks \) however , getting back games , kisio traded chicago last year , sharks go 0 october , maybe gund sooner november 's another twist chicago would kisio season never go murphy first place kelly best season \( bigger guys chicago \) gund competition ferriera , sather , keenan look like geniuses broken fax machine , ferriera , keenan , maybe kingston \( maybe even green \) lose jobs kind makes shiver n't \) , every black scenario concoct kisio leaving , concoct equally bright one kisio fiasco cause 's fall , hope n't tried trade kisio , screwed nonetheless , i'm sorry kingston gone , wish gund would follow done exactly caused wish gone \? serious \? let go , fire kingston \( last two basically mean sharks starting terms timetable capture cup 've stated frequently 5 6 expansion teams gm inception cup season \) broadcast home games away games broadcast road pacific mountain time games jack ticket prices 27 38 two years \( i'm going pay 120 bucks 3 seats 'll probably next virtual 107 folks \) tell priority let sell priority order get free jacket , force order tickets next season get select section let park new arena paying privileged parking lot \( sometimes full got \) 2 straight years 've loyal ticket holder , since day 1 \( literally \) spring '90 team announced i'm getting loyalty returned wirtz treats fans far better comparison pocklington cheap tix best owner go edmonton oilers ! go playoffs next year ! stay edmonton ! know one n't suppose make negative comments signatures , us oiler fans deserve stay edmonton part \? 'd never wish kings leave metro la 's much fun watching shark 's beat mike eisler , mre eng sun com ``not leafs best team , fans even intelligent insightful pittsburgh 's players mighty bright , mean , really going get wallet back , right \? '' jan brittenson 3 93 , leaf pen woofers rec sport hockey
lmarsha cms cc wayne edu \( laurie marshall \) subject cherry help , organization wayne state university , detroit mi u lines 55 nntp posting host cms cc wayne edu article mfpirbo00wbli1ispc andrew cmu edu william k willis ww1a andrew cmu edu writes person rarely even seen cherry n't know anything , n't know whether area \( pittsburgh \) usa deprived broadcasts whether 's canadian thing altogether seriously , \? know coach one time , volume posts , someone surely getting steady diet somehow , question , deal \? secondly , comments read net merely flame bait , people actually take seriously \? gotta tell , see , really sounds like ass let know maybe i'm missing something well , detroit get see hear cherry quite regularly detroit area picks hockey night canada cbc \( ch 9 \) windsor see cherry 's coaches corner periods also get see cherry 's grapevine game grapevine hockey talk show talks player coach else hockey 's actually pretty good show n't annoying coaches corner think got nickname 'grapes' i'm sure use coach boston bruins n't know exactly could someone fill info \? local radio station detroit \( \) talks every tuesday morning personally , 've fill ! really pisses sometimes detroit toronto game monday night cbc , gave high praise doug gilmour , saying two way player designated goal scorer probably best player game 's fine agree gilmour good two way player said exact thing yzerman month ago local radio talk show gives \? seems like set speech changes goes city city cherry 'i think insert star player name city best two way player league today ' times \( ca n't remember exactly said \) basically changed opinions match audience talking someone net said something criticized mario lemieux time comes broadcast cup playoffs civic center \( yes , think pens make wales conference \) apologize left right remarks lemieux opinion , ass wo n't change opinion i'm different city sorry , n't answer question better get chest laurie marshall wayne state university detroit , michigan go wings ! ! !
bart splunge uucp \( barton \) subject oilers sale \? \? organization ashley , howland wood lines 16 yadalle cs ualberta ca \( yadallee dave \) writes 's one mill oilers might move hamilton porklington get free deal given labour relations puck like , would sigh relief way w4e elements ! ! well , dave , would disagree satan could team , 'd happy long oilers stayed edmonton selfish , true n't want see oilers move , matter owner bart , bart splunge uucp ab ca
mamatha devineni ratnam mr47 andrew cmu edu subject atlanta 's abc affiliate sucks ! ! ! ! ! organization post office , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 29 nntp posting host po2 andrew cmu edu knew , despite lack full game telecast last week , still much hockey atlanta atlanta 's abc declined pick playoff games till even show games , continue skip first half hour telecast know still better situation compared rest georgia , alabama , etc , still pretty annoying least pittsburgh , network showed shows local affiliate asked problem told local 1 9 rating bad considering first nhl game shown long time without much promotion besides , syndicated programming afternoon usually low rated lose showing nhl playoffs told contractual obligations asked golf shown abc , would contractual obligations come way come contractual obligations n't come way last week 's telecast \? could n't give coherent answer also , added atlanta one highest neutral site game demographics good think abc networks begin tie high rated programs like thier sports programming hope everyone atlanta reads bboard calls 2 complain tell stop watching news telecasts since seem handling situation lady seem settle single reason sometimes , reason low ratings another time , says contractual obligations
morgan ucs mun ca \( brian \) subject trivia question organization memorial university newfoundland lines 19 article 1993apr23 102811 623 sei cmu edu caj sei cmu edu \( carol jarosz \) writes watching penguins devils game last night , saw slash barrasso took neck brought mind goaltender jugular vein cut skate think sabre , i'm positive anyone remember know name \? happened since \? player whose skate cut goalie \? name \? info \? ever happened hockey game \? thanks , carol go pens ! name clint malarchuk i'm sure 've heard 's extra films brian
mamatha devineni ratnam mr47 andrew cmu edu subject atlanta organization post office , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 9 nntp posting host po2 andrew cmu edu ok know look pretty desperate bboard think posted 3 4 messages already issue nhl last weeks , hey pretty desperate interested multiple screens watch game one silent screens hockey oriented bars area patrick division adams division fan satellite dish \? n't mind paying admission fee , necessary
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject cherry help , organization university toronto chemistry department lines 36 article mfpirbo00wbli1ispc andrew cmu edu william k willis ww1a andrew cmu edu writes person rarely even seen cherry n't know anything , n't know whether area \( pittsburgh \) usa deprived broadcasts whether 's canadian thing altogether seriously , \? know coach one time , volume posts , someone surely getting steady diet somehow , question , deal \? secondly , comments read net merely flame bait , people actually take seriously \? gotta tell , see , really sounds like ass let know maybe i'm missing something complain cherry , wonder popular reply dick vitale john madden bobby knight joe howard john madden picks gary clark madden team lot , much better receivers much reasons cherry sings praises doug gilmour little guy heart yet one n't see string american posts saying john madden lost marbles dick vitale always promoting kid high school college outrageous statements americans expect canada would characters relation greatest passion hockey \? canadians similar americans culturally sports hockey , whereas americans football basketball baseball bowling gerald
jake rambler eng sun com \( jason cockroft \) subject bowman needs credit organization sun microsystems , inc lines 19 distribution world reply jake rambler eng sun com nntp posting host rambler eng sun com however , bowman really modern coach , patrick 's solution run team game days , delegate day day assistants shrewd managerial decision patrick 's part would argue gerald , bowman first modern coach bowman 's canadiens first nhl team weight room 70s first coach seen , press spreading false game plan rumours \( important games listen pre game interview bowman compare ice ! \) agree bowman master remember last year sc benched jagr set free ot jagr winning goal thought trademark bowman also sign modern coach ! left asking modern coach bowman \? jake
dchhabra stpl ists ca \( deepak chhabra \) subject nords 3 habs 2 robbed ! ! nntp posting host stpl ists ca organization solar terresterial physics laboratory , ists lines 90 article 1993apr20 jarvis csri toronto edu yaska eecg toronto edu \( yaska \) writes paul stewart worst biased ref presently nhl robbed ! ! ! ! patrick roy reason game lost , ron hextall reason quebec n't buy roy reason game tied would case dionne kept cool roy stood head first 15 minutes game nords rushing end end kamensky 's mini break tying goal first shot young ot excellent chances stopped roy roy outplayed hextall game , roy becomes hextall hero roy 's team n't make full use opportunities whoa effectively implying player plays really well , up' mistakes used later time ths roy , succinctly put , allowed cheap goal think roy outplayed hextall , perhaps get tape game watch first 7 8 minutes third period nhl goaltenders make great saves , would nhl first place expect particular goalie able make great saves time , even though occasionally required however , comes routine shot like sakic 's , especially crucial time game , n't think legitimate excuses hextall , hand , lot lucky bounces description lucky bounces hextall n't particularly brilliant plays arguing hextall brilliant arguing relatively weak wrist shot outside circle result goal 1 goal timing stank , explosive team like quebec , gave 1 opportunity many powerplay totally unnecessary one goal game less minute go thing 'just 1 defended dionne taking penalty either fact think move led one goal , montreal two goal lead main concern second goal certainly team loss leclair missed opportunities , bellows brunet dionne took bad penalty damphousse lebeau silent carbonneau savard step behind night roy gave bad goal roy , means , singled loss say skaters absolutely true realize game effectively could watch hockey game \( fact , could watch sporting event period \) spend hours discussing 'what 's' w r missed opportunities important final result decided get time soon , 'll watch game email list lucky montreal bounces list quebec offensive montreal leading minute go goalie last line defence , grant extra attention focussed , sometimes without justification roy gave lousy goal , team cannot afford goal roy looked like player industrial league sakic 's shot hextall n't dionne 's goal \? please cares \? value justify one lousy play totally unrelated lousy play \? could hextall critique 'd like 're going assess performance , keep mind made key saves key times roy paid big money value compared goalies still top 5 record , say roy one top goaltenders league fact , agree montreal media quickest heap praise hurl derogatory comments habs better uninformed fans assume referring however , pointed think loss blamed roy said sucks , think 've made regard objective \( informed , fyi \) observations derogatory , really ca n't help dchhabra stpl ists ca
wang ncsu edu \( cheng wang \) subject buffalo sabres organization north carolina state university lines 23 article msuinfo cl msu edu vergolin euler lbs msu edu \( david vergolini \) writes ok , buffalo fans red wings fan , amazed sabres beating bruins reason \? grant fuhr mogilny lafontaine \? would like hear since know much sabres dave vergolini michigan state university vergolin euler lbs msu edu pure simple , grant fuhr money awesome playoffs , especially last night mogilny scoring well , russian friend \( sp \? \) also done well fuhr biggest reason winning , difference year 's team previous years bill perry
huot cray com \( tom huot \) subject ulf lines 26 nntp posting host pittpa cray com organization cray research inc x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 allan sullivan \( allan cs ualberta ca \) wrote unfortunately , way league heading ca n't fight , way retaliate someone cheap shot ref n't looking ulf brought high level players stuck past \( like neely \) prefer fights cheap shots disadvantage new system lets face , cheap shot \( like high sticking \) effective method easier hide refs , better chance causing injury , draw people fights way n't like , 's way league going way , rather good hit ulf last penguin devil game managed hit nj player face stick \( must legal hit , ulf clean player allowed things like \) ex nhl hockey players might care comment end ridiculously long discussion \? tom huot huot cray com
huot cray com \( tom huot \) subject ulf crushes valeri zelepukin lines 16 nntp posting host pittpa cray com organization cray research inc x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 bill clare 726 9419 \( clare ssd kodak com \) wrote less says penguins game briefly saw ulf cross check valeri face wondering cherry going go coach 's corner type game come ! wake ! geez 's player sort thing think kind lucky game really considering state nj tom huot huot cray com
dvb ick \( david van beveren \) subject tv coverage nhl blame ! organization sunsoft inc , los angeles , ca lines 8 nntp posting host ick x newsreader tin 1 1 pl3 ns1 cc lehigh edu \( steven jay \) writes whole lot completely ignorant stuff pitt give guy drug test , whale dvb
mre teal eng sun com \( mike eisler \) subject wash isl ot game organization sun microsystems , mountain view , ca usa lines 28 nntp posting host teal article 1993apr23 staff dccs upenn edu filinuk staff dccs upenn edu \( geoff filinuk \) writes get back stop posting articles subject ! ! ! many f n game 's making sick generally agree however , \( 1 \) last night espn cut away baseball tonite , looks like sportscenter baseball , cut away 7 40 pacific 's quite contract \( 2 \) espn could n't deliver , plan let sportschannel pick slack nonetheless , ultimately fault us american public regular season baseball precedence playoff hockey u support team support game somebody r h excellent idea write chrysler thank supporting hockey ads would consider products 's equally excellent idea , watch baseball 10 minutes \( know i'm asking lot , 's spew bags \) , write advertising , write letters complaining supporting baseball displeasure wo n't consider buying products mike eisler , mre eng sun com ``not leafs best team , fans even intelligent insightful pittsburgh 's players mighty bright , mean , really going get wallet back , right \? '' jan brittenson 3 93 , leaf pen woofers rec sport hockey
virginia edu \( gregory j \) subject trivia question organization university virginia lines 4 goalie refer clint malarchuk time playing sabres team immediately prior washington capitals recover continue play , know present whereabouts
mjr4u virginia edu \( matthew j rush \) subject bernie nicholls man ! organization university virginia lines 26 thoughts n't usually like post simply make fun player , time could n't resist pens devils game last night , second period , think kevin stevens penalty box , nicholls punched kjell face , raised stick like two handed sword defend ! kjell could , 355 pounds , laugh ! speaking swedish penguins defensemen , ulf getting little hand lately cheap shots getting frequent violent everybody except officials could see last night , rammed butt stick one devil 's throat 've always supported argument job irritating , 's starting push edge imho course , holik 's chop barrasso 's neck n't either seems following way beat penguins injure philosophy modern drama professor pointed day , jagr stoned pretty well tuesday night , last night well , although 30 seconds danced around devils end pretty exciting matt uva
mre teal eng sun com \( mike eisler \) subject espn2 tell us organization sun microsystems , mountain view , ca usa lines 27 nntp posting host teal article 1993apr23 walter cray com huot cray com \( tom huot \) writes n't heard new espn2 new network supposed start \? sounds great ! \( long cable co offers \) hopefully use lesson given master ted turner season ted introduced tnt , many cable co 's refused put , saying , gee get enough old movies , , etc tbs , usa , amc , wgn , wor , need another one \? fall come spring , ted fixed little red wagons good previous spring , nba playoffs wore tbs , tnt \( still \) everyone gets tnt , espn put nfl football baseball espn2 , leave hockey espn cable co 's play games drop espn favor espn2 , espn alternate baseball football channels every week , espn guys collectively turner guy \? mike eisler , mre eng sun com ``not leafs best team , fans even intelligent insightful pittsburgh 's players mighty bright , mean , really going get wallet back , right \? '' jan brittenson 3 93 , leaf pen woofers rec sport hockey
ingo sunee uwaterloo ca \( \) subject list tee times metropolitan toronto golf courses monday organization university waterloo lines 28 article 1993apr20 julian uwo ca lee139 gaul csd uwo ca \( steve lee \) writes article euc noose ecn purdue edu stamber rainbow ecn purdue edu \( kevin l stamber \) writes kevin l stamber purdue university phil \( kid \) roam arena interviews woops ! rec sport hockey ! rec sport golf ! hope check newsgroup header next time posting ! steve leaf 's play like game one 're going need ! watching game really hurt ! cheers ! ingo sunee uwaterloo ca violent body descartes uwaterloo ca contact sports ingo electrical watstar uwaterloo ca watch , lower class electrical watstar uwaterloo ca paul university waterloo opinion , probably would n't
jbrown vax cns muskingum edu subject espn cares less hockey organization muskingum college lines 23 espn pathetic , watching everybody complain espn 's coverage agree might suggest getting worked nothing knew espn 's coverage going suck mean ever watched regular season sportscenter coverage hockey \? sucks , mean really sucks ! ! ! espn know hockey shot ass really pissed last night , coverage go school ohio know indians suck , show \? bill clement would shoot anyway calmed realized going show overtime caps isles game thought knew going happen , fact praying least would keep even boring devils game overall think espn care show hockey firmly belive know respect fans ie contract obligations , screw espn praise hockey fans put shit ! go hawks ! ! ! jb
bucknell edu \( tom \) subject montreal canadiens organization bucknell university , , pa , usa lines 8 distribution world nntp posting host bucknell edu montreal canadiens fans let radio station \( \) playing playoff series \( including short wave radio frequencies \) \? , pa \( home bucknell university \) definitely hockey town ! please send responses bucknell edu thanks !
icop csa bu edu \( antonio pera \) subject wjr boston distribution usa organization computer science department , boston university , boston , , usa lines 8 originator icop csa boston area , hear rangers wfan devils wabc , whalers red wings wjr course addition bruins currently may move fools owned celtics thus show bruins every time conflict also get baltimore n't think hockey btw , got station indiana fort wayne comets games
ccohen pitt edu \( caleb n cohen \) subject espn sucks ot baseball \? guess lines 12 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 article ccu umanitoba ca umturne4 ccu umanitoba ca writes showing meaningless \( relatively \) baseball game overtime game tied less 3 seconds left clock \? actually happened pens game , turned espn game nearly end regular , phone rang tv later turned back , indians little later , hockey games , baseball game actually matters , hockey deed
jaracz oz plymouth edu \( david r jaracz \) subject peter forsberg organization plymouth state college plymouth , nh lines 23 article ucs mun ca morgan ucs mun ca \( carl vincent \) writes article 1993apr23 583 spang camosun bc ca ua256 freenet victoria bc ca \( tom moffat \) says e give stats world championships sao mail ua256 freenet victoria bc ca tom moffat victoria b c canada top point world jr hockey championships g p forsberg , swe 7 24 31 sooo glad guys naslund , swe 13 11 24 team , w mario , , cze slo 6 9 15 bure , gretzky , neely , p turgeon , damphousse , , swe 10 4 14 lebeau juneau , dunno much time , fin 6 8 14 'll get \) \) \)
farenebt craft camp clarkson edu \( droopy \) subject octopus detroit \? organization clarkson university lines 24 nntp posting host craft clarkson edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 valerie hammerl \( hammerl acsu buffalo edu \) wrote article 1993apr17 news clarkson edu farenebt logic camp clarkson edu \( droopy \) writes fact , tradition passed affiliate adirondack gm 6 last yr 's finals , 8 legged creature hurled onto frozen pond landed right feet ref lance roberts may passed toronto , 've even seen octopus aud last year 's bruins sabres game knew detroit version , seeing aud bit puzzling \) n't think 's puzzling bit 's called \( , i'm bitter \) bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl , ecac boston bruins contact rec sport hockey adirondack red wings , calder cup champs '81 '86 '89 '92 clarkson hockey , ecac tournament champs '66 '91 '93 glens falls high hockey , ny division ii state champs '90 '91 ahl fans join ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu
bks2 cbnewsi cb att com \( bryan k strouse \) subject nhl playoffs results games played 4 20 93 organization keywords division semis game 2 lines 130 nhl playoff results 4 20 93 conference semi finals best seven patrick adams norris smythe nj buf \( leads 2 0 \) stl \( leads 1 0 \) win pit \( leads 2 0 \) bos chi van \( leads 1 0 \) nyi \( tied 1 1 \) mon tor la \( leads 1 0 \) que \( leads 2 0 \) det \( leads 1 0 \) cal new jersey devils 0 0 0 0 pittsburgh penguins \( leads series 2 0 \) 2 4 1 7 1st period pit , mceachern 1 \( francis , taglianetti \) 15 09 pit , lemieux 3 \( u samuelsson , barrasso \) \( sh \) 17 41 2nd period pit , tocchet 2 \( k stevens , u samuelsson \) 3 48 pit , jagr 2 \( francis , ramsey \) 12 39 pit , k stevens 1 \( francis , murphy \) \( pp \) 15 43 pit , mceachern 2 \( daniels , mullen \) 16 46 3rd period pit , mullen 1 \( francis , barrasso \) 17 42 powerplay opportunities devils 0 5 penguins 1 4 shots goal devils 12 11 13 36 penguins 13 10 4 27 new jersey devils terreri \( 0 2 \) \( 23 shots 17 saves \) billington \( 0 00 third \) \( 4 shots 3 saves \) pittsburgh penguins barrasso \( 2 0 \) \( 36 shots 36 saves \) att 16 , 164 new york islanders \( series tied 1 1 \) 1 1 2 0 1 5 washington capitals 0 2 2 0 0 4 1st period nyi , turgeon 1 \( king , thomas \) 13 14 2nd period , hunter 3 \( johansson , miller \) 6 33 nyi , turgeon 2 \( thomas , vaske \) 12 36 , hunter 4 \( johansson , carpenter \) \( pp \) 16 51 3rd period nyi , hogue 1 3 31 , khristich 2 \( cavallini , bondra \) 7 16 nyi , ferraro 2 \( flatley , hogue \) 14 50 , hunter 5 \( johansson , khristich \) \( pp \) 19 57 1 overtime none 2 overtime nyi , mullen 1 \( ferraro , flatley \) 14 15 powerplay opportunities islanders 0 5 capitals 2 5 shots goal islanders 14 17 8 13 9 61 capitals 6 9 11 14 5 45 new york islanders healy \( 1 1 \) \( 45 shots 41 saves \) washington capitals tabaracci \( 1 1 \) \( 61 shots 56 saves \) att 15 , 421 montreal canadiens 0 0 1 1 quebec nordiques \( leads series 2 0 \) 3 0 1 4 1st period que , leschyshyn 1 \( kamensky , sakic \) \( pp \) 4 19 que , young 2 \( lapointe \) 11 41 que , young 3 \( lapointe , duchesne \) 13 56 2nd period none 3rd period mon , bellows 2 \( odelein \) 11 05 que , lapointe 1 \( ricci \) \( en \) 19 23 powerplay opportunities canadiens 0 1 nordiques 1 2 shots goal canadiens 8 10 15 33 nordiques 18 14 6 38 montreal canadiens roy \( 0 2 \) \( 37 shots 34 saves \) quebec nordiques hextall \( 2 0 \) \( 33 shots 32 saves \) att 15 , 399 buffalo sabres \( leads series 2 0 \) 2 1 1 4 boston bruins 0 0 0 0 1st period buf , presley 1 \( sh \) 4 27 buf , wood 1 \( , b sweeney \) \( pp \) 8 07 2nd period buf , mogilny 3 \( lafontaine \) 5 03 3rd period buf , hawerchuk 1 \( carney , smehlik \) \( pp \) 14 48 powerplay opportunities sabres 2 4 bruins 0 5 shots goal sabres 9 8 8 25 bruins 14 12 8 34 buffalo sabres fuhr \( 2 0 \) \( 34 shots 34 saves \) boston bruins moog \( 0 2 \) \( 10 shots 7 saves \) blue \( 5 03 second \) \( 15 shots 14 saves \) att 14 , 448 spike
loh fraser sfu ca \( keith meng wei loh \) subject espn cares less hockey organization simon fraser university , burnaby , b c , canada lines 16 jbrown vax cns muskingum edu writes espn pathetic , watching everybody complain espn 's coverage agree might suggest getting worked nothing knew espn 's coverage going suck mean ever watched regular season sportscenter coverage hockey \? sucks , mean really sucks ! ! ! espn know hockey shot ass really pissed last night , coverage go school ohio know indians suck , show \? bill clement would shoot hope makes feel better , overtime isles caps great ! ! ! hang \)
chuq apple com \( chuq von rospach \) subject sharks kingston fired ! ! ! organization go sharks , go giants , inc lines 16 nntp posting host apple com nlu xenon stanford edu \( nelson lu \) writes initially supposed play russian wc team \( anybody know happened \? \) yeah , finally came agreement contract soon ink dry , suddenly decided kansas city neat place \( ergo , want play national team bargaining chip \) chuq imho von rospach , esd support training \( dal aux \) chuq apple com member , sfwa editor , otherrealms genie mac bigot alink chuq minor league fans minors request medraut apple com \( san jose giants 1 9 \) san francisco giants fans giants request medraut apple com \( stick \? ! \) san jose sharks fans sharks request medraut apple com \( new seat 127 tbd \)
kfrank magnus acs ohio state edu \( kevin frank \) subject area code edmonton , alberta , canada nntp posting host bottom magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university distribution na lines 13 believe , phone books , current information include area code edmonton alberta would hostile towards others asking simple questions would rather appear stupid open nd remove doubt mark twain assult someone get 5 years hockey , 5 minutes great sport \? ! kevin frank kfrank magnus acs ohio state edu
bhullar bldg hsc campus \( raj bhullar \) subject buffalo sabres nntp posting host bhullar oral umanitoba ca organization oral biology , univ manitoba lines 20 sabres win two games bruins \? think game three buffalo important series sabres lose game , party hello next year key remaining games series whether fuhr keep goaltending mogilny continue skate bruins shown demonstrated excellent speed finally , sabres appear shown post season sabres bills fan
organization central michigan university mark whitten cmuvm csv cmich edu subject pat burns distribution world lines 6 pat burns 'd throw towel wings dominated every aspect game trying mix lines dead end murray many combinations counter prediction wings 5 mark let 's go wings ! ! !
jca2 cec1 wustl edu \( joseph charles achkar \) subject grant fuhr leads sabres nntp posting host cec1 organization washington university , st louis mo lines 21 buffalo 2 0 series boston , reason grant fuhr \? fuhr playoff hungry , 's proving call money goaltender fuhr might one best goaltenders league anymore \( statistically least \) , 's proving make big save right time leafs kept fuhr , probably would chance powerhouse detroit game 1 \? see huge smile gerald 's face fuhr 's performance \) l l e z l e b l u e ! ! ! joe ashkar contact blues saint louis jca2 cec1 wustl edu \( \) blues
gtd597a prism gatech edu \( hrivnak \) subject goodbye , good riddance , get lost 'stars organization georgia institute technology lines 13 article 1993apr21 julian uwo ca kirk gaul csd uwo ca \( andrew kirk \) writes back hockey , north stars moved past years shit real team like toronto would never moved ! ! ! well , shit means going stanley cup finals couple years ago , 'd rather shit leaf fan go skins ! next question emotional music quite go braves ! effect \? mike patton , faith go hornets ! go capitals ! mike friedman \( hrivnak fan ! \) internet gtd597a prism gatech edu
bnr ca \( kerry \) subject cherry help , reply bnr ca organization bnr ottawa lines 19 article mfpirbo00wbli1ispc andrew cmu edu , william k willis ww1a andrew cmu edu writes person rarely even seen cherry n't know anything , n't know whether area \( pittsburgh \) usa deprived broadcasts whether 's canadian thing altogether seriously , \? know coach one time , volume posts , someone surely getting steady diet somehow , question , deal \? secondly , comments read net merely flame bait , people actually take seriously \? gotta tell , see , really sounds like ass let know maybe i'm missing something asked , cherry denies roger maynard denies knowledge usenet \) concede roger best two way poster net today defense good offence \)
35002 2765 uwovax uwo ca subject area code edmonton , alberta , canada organization university western ont , london nntp posting host hydra uwo ca lines 17 article 1993apr22 magnus acs ohio state edu , kfrank magnus acs ohio state edu \( kevin frank \) writes i'm trying get ahold directory assistance operator edmonton , need area code know , please e mail directly little time scan posts much appreciated ! ! ! geez , n't realize things bad ohio state ca n't afford phone books , even operators probably clinton 's fault , n't 8 \) 403 paul 35002 2765 uwovax uwo ca
35002 2765 uwovax uwo ca subject cbc canadian espn organization university western ont , london nntp posting host hydra uwo ca lines 19 hooray , hear tsn jets game , selanne getting hat trick ! course , country \( read ontario ! \) could n't see game , van wpg series far , beloved cbc figures one cares series \( looked pretty far monday wednesday nights , cbc could shown toronto detroit game , done news , picked winnipeg vancouver n't tonight \? guessed , toronto detroit , news \( end jets game \) , calgary la , 's hockey night canada , ca n't see one two series two canadian teams \? much ask \? paul 35002 2765 uwovax uwo ca
umturne4 ccu umanitoba ca \( daryl turner \) subject jets canucks jets hold , win 5 4 nntp posting host ccu umanitoba ca organization university manitoba , winnipeg , manitoba , canada lines 19 teemu selanne 3 goals , keith tkachuk one , luciano borsato scored rare jets shorthanded goal jets held beat canucks 5 4 , close series 2 1 trevor linden pavel bure two goals canucks losing cause selanne came two game goal scoring slump , scoring two powerplay goals , one nice breakaway pass darrin shannon hard work paid tonight jets , jets continue exhibit strong work effort , make series \( woofed last year 3 1 ai n't going 'll quietly happy solid performance \) daryl turner r h contact winnipeg jets internet umturne4 ccu umanitoba ca fidonet 1 348 701 1 348 4 \( please route 348 700 \) tkachuk zhamnov , sel nne , shoots , scores ! jets win cup ! jets win cup ! essensa vezina ! housley norris ! sel nne calder !
well sf ca us \( frank giraffe \) subject sharks jack feirerra \( sharks kingston fired ! ! ! \) nntp posting host well sf ca us organization whole earth 'lectronic link lines 31 broadcast home games away games broadcast road pacific mountain time games jack ticket prices 27 38 two years \( i'm going pay 120 bucks 3 seats 'll probably next virtual 107 folks \) tell priority let sell priority order get free jacket , force order tickets next season get select section let park new arena paying , let 's start whole topic show bad sharks things swear partial plan games televised \( know , i'm exaggerating , \) order new ticket prices suck wait 'till people try park games next year public transit \? yeah right , 'd love take 3 hours see 3 hour game shelling hundreds dollars partial season plans two years doesnt mean anything sharks , get pick seats dead rise graves claim seats ! \) frank frank giraffe well sf ca us apple , pacbell , ucbvax ! well ! noose tightens necks , worry burning flags pee work keep jobs
mre teal eng sun com \( mike eisler \) subject cherry help , organization sun microsystems , mountain view , ca usa lines 41 nntp posting host teal article mfpirbo00wbli1ispc andrew cmu edu william k willis ww1a andrew cmu edu writes person rarely even seen cherry n't know anything , n't know whether area \( pittsburgh \) usa deprived broadcasts whether 's canadian thing altogether seriously , \? 's canadian thing former coach boston bruins colorado rockies summaries get posted gather ongoing beef year conventional wisdom canadian hockey doomed second third rate behind perceived emergence u european programs know coach one time , volume posts , someone surely getting steady diet somehow , question , deal \? secondly , comments left rockies , got job cbc 's hockey night canada n't looked back since actually , work cbc least playoff season rockies eliminated read net merely flame bait , people actually take seriously \? gotta tell , see , really sounds like 'd say 's combination flame bait serious journalism closest thing 'll find cherry u stan fischler , self described hockey maven similarities say things get people upset difference cherry knows game fischler n't ass let know maybe i'm missing something 's character completely rational would n't job definitions , could called ass people feel mike lang , another character wish would get wider exposure \( one national telecast last year \) mike eisler , mre eng sun com ``not leafs best team , fans even intelligent insightful pittsburgh 's players mighty bright , mean , really going get wallet back , right \? '' jan brittenson 3 93 , leaf pen woofers rec sport hockey
gtd597a prism gatech edu \( hrivnak \) subject goalie mask poll update 4 21 93 summary keep sending votes ! ! ! organization georgia institute technology lines 34 current votes favorite goalie masks \( 3pts 1st , 2nd , 3rd \) player team pts votes 1 ed belfour chicago 31 14 2 andy moog boston 30 13 3 curtis joseph st louis 26 11 brian hayward san jose 26 10 5 ron hextall quebec 16 8 6 gerry cheevers boston \( retired \) 11 6 7 john ny rangers 10 4 grant fuhr buffalo 10 4 9 mike richter ny rangers 6 3 10 manon rheaume atlanta \( ihl \) 5 2 11 beaupre washington 4 2 ken dryden montreal \( retired \) 4 2 others receiving less mike vernon \( cal \) , clint malarchuk \( buf sd , ihl \) , tommy soderstrom \( phil \) , ray leblanc \( usa \) , irbe \( sj \) , tim cheveldae \( det \) , sean burke \( nj \) , rick wamsley \( tor , ret \) , jon casey \( minn \) , bob essensa \( win \) , glenn healy \( nyi \) , toy \( \? \? \? \) , gilles \( \? \? \? \) , rod stauber \( la \) , \( \? \? \? \) , pat jablonski \( tb \) , grant fuhr \( tor \) , felix potvin \( tor \) , stephane beauregard \( win \) , mark fitzpatrick \( nyi \) , chico \( nyi \) someone please tell teams \( \? \? \? \) play \( ed \) \? thanks go skins ! next question emotional music quite go braves ! effect \? mike patton , faith go hornets ! go capitals ! mike friedman \( hrivnak fan ! \) internet gtd597a prism gatech edu
slegge kean ucs mun ca subject nhl team captains lines 13 organization memorial university st john 's nfld , canada st captain trivia , next edmonton st lee later traded st buffalo sabres , wayne gretzky st w traded l , came kevin low st nly year traded n rangers n't mark messier captain oilers kevin lowe \? , course , traded well point every oilers captain traded still true stephen legge slegge kean ucs mun ca
cdash moet cs colorado edu \( charles shub \) subject espn really sucks big time nntp posting host moet cs colorado edu organization university colorado colorado springs lines 21 us hockey automobile racing fans know exactly stand espn delays martinsville race day nfl draft espn shows baseball instead overtime nhl playoff game gimme break , guys anyone know race tape delay \? especially monday \? \? \? weekend nfl draft \? , race day real slap face racing fans i'm afraid 're right \( usual \) recall 've ever since started covering draft live wish could work kind deal somebody else tnn get race live , guess espn n't much sharing also clarifies auto racing stands priority list \( n't already know \) charlie shub cdash cs colorado edu \( 719 \) 593 leave university iowa cdash cs uiowa edu \( 319 \) 335
gomer pitt edu \( richard j coyle \) subject goodbye , good riddance , get lost 'stars organization university pittsburgh lines 17 article 1993apr21 julian uwo ca kirk gaul csd uwo ca \( andrew kirk \) writes losers like us \? fucking moron never heard western business school , university western ontario matter n't pull head asshole smell something shit look map see uwo ! back hockey , north stars moved past years shit real team like toronto would never moved ! ! ! heard western business school , university western ontario , 've never even wondered western ontario judging quality posts coming , i'm still sure place exists perhaps impressed , though , since appears grade school children area access internet rick
schaefer math wisc edu \( mark \) subject cherry help , organization univ wisconsin dept mathematics lines 32 william k willis ww1a andrew cmu edu writes person rarely even seen cherry n't know anything , n't know whether area \( pittsburgh \) usa deprived broadcasts whether 's canadian thing altogether seriously , \? know coach one time , volume posts , someone surely getting steady diet somehow , question , deal \? secondly , comments read net merely flame bait , people actually take seriously \? gotta tell , see , really sounds like ass let know maybe i'm missing something rookie year \( coach \) card \( 74 75 \) past couple seasons , highly successful coach rochester americans ahl , getting first shot nhl job bruins named coach year ahl last two years , aims make bruins rough team , couple years back although played 16 seasons professional hockey , never played regular season nhl game appear one playoff game boston 1956 57 's brother , dick , played two seasons nhl boston philadelphia mark listen , 're going buy lunch boxes , math wisc edu might well buy david cassidy lunch boxes uw dept mathematics madison , wi david cassidy
andrew idacom hp com \( andrew scott \) subject usenet hockey draft final standings expires sat , 1 may 1993 06 00 01 gmt organization idacom , division hewlett packard lines 283 final usenet hockey draft congratulations year 's winner , dave wessels victoria , b c , initial 1000 points 1575 9 points ! thanks 262 teams entering biggest usenet hockey draft ever ! hope hear september , 7th annual draft pleasure running draft , hope fun andrew usenet hockey draft standings week 28 posn team total pts cash last posn 1 dave wessels 1575 9 1 9 \( 1 \) 2 gilles carmel 1539 0 1 0 \( 3 \) bob hill 1539 0 24 0 \( 2 \) 4 seppo kemppainen 2 47 2 \( 4 \) 5 awesome oilers 0 68 6 \( 5 \) 6 hillside raiders 0 7 0 \( 6 \) 7 mak knife paranjape 1500 0 1469 31 0 \( 7 \) 8 jan stein 1492 3 35 3 \( 8 \) 9 years model 6 1471 17 6 \( 9 \) 10 tapio repo 6 19 6 \( 10 \) 11 rangers destiny 0 1444 42 0 \( 10 \) 12 1 10 1 \( 13 \) 13 big fish 0 22 0 \( 12 \) 14 go flames 3 40 3 \( 15 \) 15 thin ice 1444 3 1412 32 3 \( 14 \) 16 mopar muscle men 1441 7 3 7 \( 17 \) 17 littlest giants 6 35 6 \( 16 \) 18 lindros losers 7 1 7 \( 18 \) 19 die penguin 1412 2 1392 20 2 \( 19 \) 20 samuel lau \( calgary , alberta \) 9 4 9 \( 20 \) 21 boomer 's boys 2 0 2 \( 21 \) 22 delaware 3 1371 1 3 \( 23 \) 23 general accounting office 9 20 9 \( 22 \) 24 menschen 6 1334 31 6 \( 24 \) 25 's dec nh 6 1311 52 6 \( 25 \) 26 fife flyers 4 31 4 \( 27 \) 27 rocky mountain high 8 1351 1 8 \( 26 \) 28 dave snell 1346 0 1321 25 0 \( 29 \) 29 glacial 1341 0 18 0 \( 30 \) 30 gerald olchowy 7 1304 33 7 \( 28 \) 31 2 1306 11 2 \( 31 \) 32 1316 3 1316 0 3 \( 32 \) 33 neural netters 3 1298 11 3 \( 35 \) 34 young 9 42 9 \( 33 \) 35 sam dogs 6 11 6 \( 34 \) 36 artic storm 3 1254 39 3 \( 37 \) 37 0 1238 101 7 \( 36 \) 38 soft swedes 9 1238 46 9 \( 38 \) 39 1280 8 20 8 \( 46 \) 40 milton keynes kings 8 2 8 \( 40 \) 41 jeff horvath 6 5 6 \( 39 \) 42 legion hoth 8 1250 15 8 \( 45 \) 43 le de 3 1239 25 3 \( 43 \) 44 yan man loke 1263 7 1263 0 7 \( 44 \) 45 1 1213 45 1 \( 41 \) 46 hoboken 1254 7 1246 8 7 \( 41 \) 47 streaks 1249 8 54 8 \( 49 \) 48 brian bergman 1249 3 23 3 \( 50 \) 49 finnish force 5 22 5 \( 47 \) 50 grant marven 1239 9 2 9 \( 53 \) 51 ice legion 1239 8 1211 28 8 \( 48 \) 52 goaldingers 0 22 0 \( 51 \) 53 c 1231 9 1229 2 9 \( 52 \) 54 randy coulman 2 1221 5 2 \( 62 \) 55 bruins 2 1180 45 2 \( 54 \) 56 skriko wolves 1223 4 5 4 \( 57 \) 57 buffalo soldiers 1223 0 62 1 \( 59 \) 58 houdini 's magicians 1221 3 1203 18 3 \( 56 \) 59 steven mark dream team 1 1216 3 1 \( 64 \) 60 real bad toe jam 1216 9 48 9 \( 55 \) 61 rec sport hockey choices 1216 3 1 3 \( 58 \) 62 1216 2 54 2 \( 60 \) 63 lamp lighters 1213 9 1208 5 9 \( 63 \) 64 lippe 1212 9 13 9 \( 61 \) 65 phil kev 's karma dudes 1205 8 1205 0 8 \( 69 \) 66 doug bowles 1203 0 1183 20 0 \( 72 \) 67 bloom county stars 3 1198 4 3 \( 67 \) 68 tom 1 1189 13 1 \( 66 \) 69 indianapolis 1197 8 1177 20 8 \( 65 \) 70 bruins 1196 1 1196 0 1 \( 68 \) 71 smithw 0 1174 21 0 \( 70 \) 72 aik 5 1154 34 5 \( 77 \) 73 iowa 3 16 3 \( 71 \) 74 frank worthless 1186 3 1180 6 3 \( 76 \) 75 great 1183 4 54 4 \( 73 \) 76 non ! 4 16 4 \( 74 \) 77 shooting 1180 1 1180 0 1 \( 75 \) 78 invisible inc 1178 1 1177 1 1 \( 78 \) 79 brad gibson 1174 2 1147 27 2 \( 79 \) 80 1170 8 1146 24 8 \( 80 \) 81 john 1170 1 27 1 \( 84 \) 82 david wong 0 1111 66 1 \( 83 \) 83 garryola 1165 7 9 7 \( 85 \) 84 gary bergman fan club 1163 1 5 1 \( 86 \) staffan axelsson 1163 1 15 1 \( 87 \) 86 0 1103 164 1 \( 81 \) 87 chocolate rockets 1154 5 2 5 \( 90 \) 88 plp fools 1 0 1 \( 82 \) 89 0 1097 76 1 \( 97 \) 90 checkers 1150 3 16 3 \( 88 \) 1150 3 1149 1 3 \( 93 \) 92 's dastardly dozen 1150 1 1128 22 1 \( 89 \) 93 ken 1147 0 1142 5 0 \( 91 \) 94 fisher 1146 7 1146 0 7 \( 92 \) 95 neil younger 1145 2 14 2 \( 106 \) 96 bsc 1 1137 7 1 \( 96 \) 97 1138 0 1083 58 2 \( 94 \) 98 arsenal maple leafs 1137 8 3 8 \( 98 \) 99 campi machine 1137 0 1082 65 3 \( 95 \) 100 1 6 1 \( 100 \) 101 bjoern leaguen 0 3 0 \( 103 \) 102 ellis islanders 6 1116 7 6 \( 99 \) 103 zachmans wingers 1122 8 1073 49 8 \( 101 \) 104 king 1120 1 1120 0 1 \( 108 \) 105 larry 1116 8 1105 11 8 \( 109 \) 106 1115 8 1084 31 8 \( 111 \) 107 1115 1 1073 42 1 \( 112 \) het schot hard 1115 1 1097 18 1 \( 110 \) 109 hurricane andrew 1114 6 7 6 \( 107 \) 110 dirty white socks 1114 4 1071 43 4 \( 104 \) 111 1114 0 1059 72 6 \( 105 \) 112 bruce 's rented mules 1111 9 1100 11 9 \( 112 \) 113 oklahoma 1111 3 1083 28 3 \( 116 \) 114 teem kanada 1111 0 1095 16 0 \( 114 \) 115 1110 9 1108 2 9 \( 102 \) 116 frank 's follies 1110 2 24 2 \( 115 \) 117 pond slime 7 0 7 \( 118 \) 118 1108 6 1096 12 6 \( 117 \) 119 dartmouth 1097 1 7 1 \( 119 \) 120 bunnies 1096 3 1056 40 3 \( 124 \) 121 blue talon 1095 3 1082 13 3 \( 121 \) 122 stanford ice hawks 2 1066 28 2 \( 122 \) 123 timo ojala 1088 3 1088 0 3 \( 125 \) 124 mark sanders 1088 1 1077 11 1 \( 120 \) 125 aye ! ! ! 9 1084 3 9 \( 123 \) 126 dirty rotten 2 1 2 \( 128 \) 127 team 1 1070 17 1 \( 133 \) 128 cluster buster 1084 6 1077 7 6 \( 127 \) 129 1083 3 1076 7 3 \( 126 \) 130 fuzzfaces 3 1058 23 3 \( 129 \) 131 gary bill pens dynasty 1078 6 1059 19 6 \( 132 \) 132 seattle 1077 9 1055 22 9 \( 135 \) 133 nesbitt 1077 1 1076 1 1 \( 131 \) 134 lost 1076 7 1070 6 7 \( 130 \) 135 le groupe mi 1076 2 1046 30 2 \( 137 \) 136 arctic circles 1075 6 1038 37 6 \( 134 \) 137 late night david letterman 1074 0 1074 0 0 \( 136 \) 138 1071 3 1071 0 3 \( 145 \) 139 wild hearted sons 1068 9 1064 4 9 \( 143 \) 140 hobbs 1066 4 1053 13 4 \( 149 \) 141 closet boy 's boys 1066 0 1018 48 0 \( 142 \) 142 scott glenn 1065 2 1055 10 2 \( 139 \) 143 go bruins 1064 2 1058 6 2 \( 138 \) 144 andy f wong 1063 5 1042 21 5 \( 145 \) book 'em 's 1063 5 1053 10 5 \( 148 \) 146 rocks rockers 1062 1 1057 5 1 \( 147 \) 147 92 93 1062 0 1042 20 0 \( 144 \) 148 team gold 1060 7 16 7 \( 141 \) 149 goddess fermentation 1056 2 1026 30 2 \( 151 \) 150 convex stars 1055 6 1050 5 6 \( 153 \) 151 flying 1055 1 1046 9 1 \( 140 \) 152 einstein 's rock band 1054 0 1054 0 0 \( 154 \) 153 dr joel 1053 7 1050 3 7 \( 165 \) 154 tim rogers 1053 1 1045 8 1 \( 152 \) 155 team 1053 0 998 174 8 \( 159 \) 156 tap 1052 5 1052 0 5 \( 156 \) 157 1052 4 1052 0 4 \( 166 \) 158 1052 0 1006 46 0 \( 157 \) 159 go habs go 0 1043 8 0 \( 150 \) 160 princeton canucks 1050 0 995 124 2 \( 155 \) 161 hubert 's hockey 1049 6 1049 0 6 \( 157 \) 162 satan 's choice 1047 5 1033 14 5 \( 164 \) 163 bob 's blues 1046 8 1000 46 8 \( 160 \) 164 les nordiques 1045 0 990 60 4 \( 162 \) 165 pierre 6 1042 2 6 \( 167 \) 166 1041 6 1038 3 6 \( 161 \) 167 slap shot marco 1039 8 988 51 8 \( 168 \) 168 hunters collectors 1038 4 996 42 4 \( 162 \) 169 1038 0 983 63 7 \( 173 \) 170 san jose mahi mahi 1036 8 1005 31 8 \( 169 \) 171 jeff 1034 8 986 48 8 \( 171 \) 172 east city jokers 1034 0 979 69 1 \( 174 \) 173 leafs rule ! ! ! ! 1033 8 1008 25 8 \( 170 \) 174 darse billings 1033 7 999 34 7 \( 178 \) 175 flowers 1033 0 978 113 6 \( 177 \) 176 daryl turner 1030 4 1028 2 4 \( 175 \) 177 inc 1030 3 1003 27 3 \( 180 \) 178 riding pine 1028 7 1008 20 7 \( 176 \) 179 spinal tap 1027 4 986 41 4 \( 181 \) 180 stimpy zeta 1027 0 1006 21 0 \( 172 \) 181 's 1024 0 1000 24 0 \( 179 \) 182 big bad bruins 1023 5 1005 18 5 \( 184 \) 183 enforcers 1022 1 994 28 1 \( 183 \) 184 mike mac cormack sydney ns 1022 0 967 107 2 \( 186 \) 1022 0 967 179 0 \( 182 \) 186 1020 4 23 4 \( 187 \) 187 yellow plague 1019 2 1005 14 2 \( 195 \) 188 jeff 1018 7 972 46 7 \( 184 \) 189 lehigh 1017 9 1009 8 9 \( 189 \) 190 1015 7 1013 2 7 \( 188 \) 191 republican dirty 1010 0 955 66 0 \( 190 \) 192 ninja turtles 1009 3 1008 1 3 \( 196 \) 193 dr 1009 1 992 17 1 \( 192 \) 194 henry 's bar b q 1008 7 1008 0 7 \( 191 \) 195 bunch misfits 1007 8 984 23 8 \( 193 \) 196 team 1007 0 977 30 0 \( 194 \) 197 cobra 's killers 1006 7 975 31 7 \( 202 \) 198 cherry bombers 1005 2 1 2 \( 203 \) 199 1003 5 985 18 5 \( 200 \) 200 great expectations 998 3 996 2 3 \( 201 \) 998 3 980 18 3 \( 198 \) 202 dragons 994 3 966 28 3 \( 199 \) 203 team 993 9 947 46 9 \( 197 \) 204 killer apes 990 3 966 24 3 \( 205 \) 205 988 6 951 37 6 \( 206 \) 206 jayson 's pucks 987 9 961 26 9 \( 204 \) 207 roger smith 987 6 948 39 6 \( 208 \) 208 firebirds 980 9 977 3 9 \( 209 \) 209 wholesale 980 7 979 1 7 \( 211 \) 210 umpire 4 life 980 1 969 11 1 \( 207 \) 211 1st weeks hurt ! 980 0 925 55 9 \( 210 \) 212 outlaws 975 0 920 164 9 \( 212 \) 213 400 hurricane 973 1 941 32 1 \( 223 \) 214 frack attack 972 3 945 27 3 \( 219 \) 215 believe dont 970 1 949 21 1 \( 215 \) 216 todd 's turkeys 967 9 966 1 9 \( 219 \) 217 thundering herd 966 0 911 163 6 \( 214 \) 218 knee injuries 965 4 955 10 4 \( 217 \) 219 200 club 962 8 956 6 8 \( 213 \) 220 fred 962 0 907 93 0 \( 222 \) 221 crazy euros 961 9 944 17 9 \( 218 \) 222 creeping death 959 3 938 21 3 \( 216 \) 223 ryan 's renegades 956 9 906 50 9 \( 221 \) 224 pig vomit 953 3 952 1 3 \( 224 \) 225 ice 952 0 897 105 4 \( 225 \) dayton bomber 952 0 952 0 0 \( 228 \) 227 cdn stuck alabama 951 3 941 10 3 \( 227 \) 228 fighting 950 0 895 141 6 \( 226 \) 229 crew 947 3 909 38 3 \( 229 \) 230 ship 's way 942 7 934 8 7 \( 235 \) 231 zipper heads 941 9 908 33 9 \( 232 \) 232 chris death 941 0 886 83 6 \( 230 \) 233 banko 's beer rangers 940 2 4 2 \( 232 \) 234 939 7 921 18 7 \( 231 \) 235 oz 934 0 899 35 0 \( 237 \) 236 ii 931 0 876 201 6 \( 236 \) 237 ninja bunnies 928 9 884 44 9 \( 239 \) 238 great scott 928 0 873 73 3 \( 240 \) 239 joliet inmates 927 8 882 45 8 \( 238 \) 240 ny flames 923 8 916 7 8 \( 234 \) 241 sabres 917 7 913 4 7 \( 243 \) 242 white wolves 910 9 874 36 9 \( 241 \) 243 florida tech team 909 3 860 49 3 \( 246 \) 244 ice holes 908 7 906 2 7 \( 242 \) 245 south carolina tiger paws 903 0 848 78 4 \( 245 \) daves team 903 0 871 32 0 \( 244 \) 247 kings 900 6 873 27 6 \( 250 \) 248 898 9 883 15 9 \( 252 \) 249 roadrunners 898 5 880 18 5 \( 249 \) 250 xtc 898 2 890 8 2 \( 248 \) 251 blue chips 894 4 884 10 4 \( 247 \) 252 new jersey rob 891 7 891 0 7 \( 251 \) 253 pat phillips 891 1 881 10 1 \( 253 \) 254 stewart clamen 869 6 868 1 6 \( 254 \) 255 demon spawn 868 0 843 25 0 \( 255 \) 256 sunnyvale storm 815 2 815 0 2 \( 256 \) 257 allez les blues 803 0 748 476 9 \( 257 \) 258 sale hockey club 785 0 762 23 0 \( 258 \) 259 picks 783 0 728 168 5 \( 259 \) 260 rinaco 780 0 725 114 0 \( 260 \) 261 revenge 705 0 701 4 0 \( 261 \) 262 riga 658 0 603 571 6 \( 262 \) andrew scott andrew idacom hp com hp idacom telecom operation \( 403 \) 462 0666 ext 253 roman era , 28 considered old
andrew idacom hp com \( andrew scott \) subject usenet hockey draft final point totals organization idacom , division hewlett packard lines 266 final point totals players chosen usenet hockey draft note 114 players scored 55 points \( minimum cost \) although 254 different players chosen andrew points team player 160 pit mario lemieux 148 buf pat lafontaine 142 bos adam oates 137 det steve yzerman 132 wpg teemu selanne 132 nyi pierre turgeon 127 buf alexander mogilny 127 tor doug gilmour 125 la luc robitaille 123 phi mark recchi 114 que mats sundin 111 pit kevin stevens 110 van pavel bure 109 pit rick tocchet 107 chi jeremy roenick 106 stl craig janney 105 que joe sakic 102 bos joe juneau 101 stl brett hull 100 cgy theoren fleury 100 pit ron francis 99 tor dave andreychuk 97 mtl vincent damphousse 97 det dino ciccarelli 97 wpg phil housley 96 buf dale hawerchuk 94 stl brendan shanahan 94 mtl kirk muller 94 pit jaromir jagr 93 min mike modano 91 nyr mark messier 89 hfd geoff sanderson 88 mtl brian bellows 88 cgy robert reichel 87 la jari kurri 87 nyi steve thomas 87 det sergei fedorov 87 det paul coffey 86 tb brian bradley 86 phi rod brind'amour 85 wsh peter bondra 85 pit larry murphy 85 hfd andrew cassels 85 van cliff ronning 82 wsh mike ridley 82 la tony granato 82 que steve duchesne 82 hfd pat verbeek 82 bos ray bourque 81 cgy gary suter 81 nj claude lemieux 80 mtl stephan lebeau 79 nj alexander semak 79 wsh kevin hatcher 79 min russ courtnall 79 wsh dale hunter 78 que mike ricci 78 sj kelly kisio 78 stl jeff brown 77 que owen nolan 77 van murray craven 77 van geoff courtnall 76 nyr tony amonte 76 nyi derek king 76 min dave gagner 75 phi eric lindros 75 cgy joe nieuwendyk 75 nyi benoit hogue 74 tor nikolai borschevsky 74 wsh michal pivonka 74 min ulf dahlen 73 la jimmy carson 73 nj stephane richer 73 chi chris chelios 73 stl nelson emerson 72 wpg alexei zhamnov 72 bos dmitri kvartalnov 72 van trevor linden 72 wpg thomas steen 71 van petr nedved 70 pit joe mullen 70 chi steve larmer 69 la mike donnelly 68 que andrei kovalenko 68 nyr mike gartner 67 wsh dmitri khristich 66 wsh al iafrate 66 det ray sheppard 66 sj johan garpenlov 65 tor glenn anderson 65 hfd zalapski 65 la wayne gretzky 65 nyr adam graves 64 nj valeri zelepukin 63 ott norm maciver 63 phi kevin dineen 62 det steve chiasson 62 det paul ysebaert 62 phi garry galley 61 pit shawn mceachern 60 mtl mike keane 60 wpg darrin shannon 60 nyi pat flatley 60 nj bernie nicholls 60 que scott young 59 la rob blake 59 phi brent fedyk 57 chi steve smith 57 wsh pat elynuik 57 nj scott stevens 57 cgy sergei makarov 57 wpg fredrik olausson 56 van greg adams 56 tb john tucker 54 chi christian ruuttu 54 chi brent sutter 54 cgy al macinnis 54 nyr sergei nemchinov 53 hfd terry yake 53 nyr darren turcotte 52 nyi vladimir malakhov 52 van dixon ward 52 la tomas sandstrom 51 bos stephen leach 51 hfd patrick poulin 51 wpg keith tkachuk 50 nyi jeff norton 50 mtl denis savard 50 tor john cullen 50 wsh sylvain cote 49 nyr ed olczyk 49 stl kevin miller 49 bos dave poulin 49 van semenov 49 phi pelle eklund 49 wpg davydov 48 mtl gilbert dionne 48 nj john maclean 48 que martin rucinsky 48 la alexei zhitnik 48 edm petr klima 48 edm doug weight 47 edm shayne corson 46 edm craig simpson 45 wsh kelly miller 45 edm dave manson 44 chi michel goulet 44 mtl schneider 43 det bob probert 43 cgy paul ranheim 43 ott sylvain turgeon 42 min mark tinordi 41 ott bob kudelski 41 det lidstrom 41 ott brad shaw 41 edm todd elik 41 bos vladimir ruzicka 40 min mike mcphee 40 nyr esa tikkanen 40 tor dave ellett 40 nj peter stastny 39 la corey millen 39 nj bobby holik 39 buf yuri khmylev 39 tb adam creighton 39 tor wendel clark 38 van sergio momesso 38 nyr alexei kovalev 37 tor rob pearson 37 que valery kamensky 37 chi dirk graham 36 nyr brian leetch 36 edm ciger 35 tor peter zezel 35 bos ted donato 33 min neal broten 33 hfd mikael nylander 33 phi josef beranek 33 chi stephane matteau 32 edm scott mellanby 32 det keith primeau 32 buf wayne presley 32 nyi brian mullen 32 phi dmitri yushkevich 32 mtl gary leeman 31 buf richard smehlik 31 bos steve heinze 31 tor dmitri mironov 30 chi brian noonan 28 wsh bob carpenter 28 sj pat falloon 27 stl igor korolev 27 tb mikael andersson 27 nyi ray ferraro 26 buf petr svoboda 26 ott mark lamb 26 nyr james patrick 25 mtl benoit brunet 24 nyi scott lachance 24 tor bill berg 23 edm martin gelinas 23 wpg sergei bautin 23 edm kevin todd 21 nyi david 21 nyi darius kasparaitis 21 tb roman hamrlik 21 min brent gilchrist 20 nyr phil bourque 20 det jim hiller 20 phi andrei lomakin 20 hfd yvon corriveau 19 buf donald audette 18 bos cam neely 17 chi joe murphy 17 sj mark pederson 16 pit martin straka 15 nyr peter andersson 13 nj 13 ott tomas jelinek 12 min bobby smith 11 tb steve kasper 10 sj ray whitney 9 hfd robert petrovicky 9 buf viktor 8 tor joe sacco 8 que mikhail 8 sj peter ahola 7 chi rob brown 7 bos glen murray 6 min brian propp 6 hfd tim kerr 5 wsh reggie savage 5 la robert lang 5 stl 5 det viacheslav kozlov 5 edm shaun van allen 4 bos jozef 4 min dan quinn 4 pit bryan fogarty 3 mtl olav 3 tb stan 2 nj claude 2 wsh jason woolley 0 que peter forsberg 0 wsh brian sakic 0 wsh randy burridge 0 mtl patrick 0 ott alexei yashin 0 edm dean 0 cgy cory stillman 0 tb brent gretzky 0 buf jason dawe 0 van igor 0 chi sergei andrew scott andrew idacom hp com hp idacom telecom operation \( 403 \) 462 0666 ext 253 roman era , 28 considered old
informatik tu muenchen de \( robert \) subject german audience lunatic \? \? originator informatik tu muenchen de organization technische universitaet muenchen , germany lines 47 article 1993apr21 ousrvr oulu fi , golf phoenix oulu fi \( jouko kylmaoja \) writes watched game germany czechs wc today astonished behaviour german audience ! german team got penalties last period crowd went penalties penalty referee n't call czechs right first goal ! threw coins , extra pucks trash rink stupid \? \? guess canadian referee \( one bros \) gave german team penalty , n't help much guess germans proud nazi kill 'em everyone n't think 's quite silly call nazi attitude , people throw coins ice \? hey , n't approve behavior guys , especially wc game , ca n't see reason using word connection us germans sucks attitude seem kind attitude every possible sport \( remember european champs stockholm soccer \) soccer german problem \( remember world cup italy \) 's big difference throwing coins smashing shop windows fighting called , come wc see dutch english germans best sports talking \? n't think soccer possible really pisses ! mean every single german attitude sucks , seem many germans know \? think 200 10000 \? hear white policemen beating black man us , think americans \? like beating blacks \? jokke kylmaoja golf phoenix oulu fi robert
hammerl acsu buffalo edu \( valerie hammerl \) subject buffalo 4 , boston 0 defense ! ! organization ub lines 24 nntp posting host autarch acsu buffalo edu article acsu buffalo edu ubvmsd cc buffalo edu \( mr \) writes 'd like see playoff games since i'm stuck buffalo ub , think boston n't giving easy , boston probably wo n't go easy , sabres n't game one buffalo would four problem playoff games buffalo \? \? \? ! ! ! \? \? \? 's sabres bruins , quebec montreal , whatever espn abc show , opposite nights 's toronto detroit whatever espn \( abc \) shows hockey good chunk north america , either side border 's wonderful , thousands folks 'd kill shoes , coverage wise valerie hammerl john sr would lift pat boards , grab hammerl acsu buffalo edu hand , start running around outside , v085pwpz ubvms cc buffalo edu faster faster wanted learn get feeling , way learn skate p lafontaine
neath brazil psych purdue edu \( ian neath \) subject final regular season individual goalie stats organization purdue university lines 6 including points \? probably goals \( least opponents \) several assists given ian neath four kinds people world neath psych purdue edu , fools , morons lunatics u eco
fish princeton edu \( mark andrew \) subject canucks score originator news nimaster nntp posting host fish princeton edu organization princeton university distribution na lines 5 help ! i'm stuck computer new jersey access radio tv could someone kindly post score canucks jets game \? thanks advance mark
howland reston ans net ! noc near net ! uunet ! cit cornell edu ! vax5 cit cornell edu ! subject camera work televised games vax5 cit cornell edu distribution rec organization cornell university lines 13 camera work games really sad \? \? ca n't remember many times penguins devils game showed guy \( without puck \) checked corner puck fired goal fact , think even missed one goal completely showing two guys holding corner last time watched football game , n't show going running back turned corner \? \? greg
paul data io com \( paul brownlow \) subject sharks review part 5 left wings organization data corporation lines 29 article apple com , chuq apple com \( chuq von rospach \) writes nlu xenon stanford edu \( nelson lu \) writes 45 dody wood season 1st acquired 3rd round pick 1991 entry draft grade \( , although perhaps n't give grade \) accused knocking wood much \? nah seriously , even tough guy \( rep \) however , games season point meaningless , hate judge talent quickly dody 's case , tempted make exception wo n't wood played junior career seattle one leading scorers mediocre team traded away 1992 rarely lost fight one toughest players whl however , extremely surprised drafted , especially third round certainly n't look like nhl material paul brownlow visualize data corp redmond , wa paul data io com
paul data io com \( paul brownlow \) subject 1993 nhl draft organization data corporation lines 11 article 1993apr20 newshub ariel yorku ca , cs902043 ariel yorku ca \( shawn luddington \) writes tampa bay either go russian kozlov \( think 's \) defenseman rob \( probably last name wrong \) rob niedermayer forward \( center , think \) whl medicine hat tigers brother , scott , defenseman \( nj devils \) paul brownlow visualize data corp redmond , wa paul data io com
matthew wavefront wti com \( matt \) subject espn f ck organization wavefront technologies inc , santa barbara , ca lines 41 x disclaimer spokesperson wavefront technologies , inc okay 's gripe ing \( \? \? whatever \) \( live santa barbara reference think \) okay , abc showed kings flames fine yawn espn \( fortunate baseball game \) showed red wings toronto game cool swear advertisements week long said espn would show pitt nj tuesday bos buff thursday raced home work early \( 4 30 pacific \) catch game , alas , boston buffalo game promised would show pitt nj game thursday overnight changed mind n't mind much watched game \( hockey much better hockey \) game video highlights patrick division hell going \? least show video highlights games \( especially nyi caps game close \) father \( lives bowling green , kentucky ck , egypt \) got watch pens game espn n't get biggest problem buffalo boston fans n't want see pittsburgh new jersey game 2 , turn tvs thursday see pittsburgh new jersey game 3 instead buffalo boston game 3 least , case , wait 2 days see game big boston buffalo fan missed game tuesday due false advertising part espn , 'd mad hell oh well hopefully 'll get better coverage next year something matt p announcers buffalo boston worst ever heard \( far emotion goes \) enthusiasm droopy dog hope better thursday
yadalle cs ualberta ca \( yadallee dave \) subject oilers sale \? \? nntp posting host cs ualberta ca organization university alberta , edmonton canada lines 29 bart splunge uucp \( barton \) writes yadalle cs ualberta ca \( yadallee dave \) writes 's one mill oilers might move hamilton porklington get free deal given labour relations puck like , would sigh relief way w4e elements ! ! well , dave , would disagree satan could team , 'd happy long oilers stayed edmonton selfish , true n't want see oilers move , matter owner bart , bart splunge uucp ab ca sentiment bart , realistically , town want pay quality player hence loosing people left , right center labour also responsible boycott pocklington movement would like oilers stay , realistically , given situation , 's bye bye oilers dave shariff yadallee \( b sc \( econ math \) \( u alberta 1990 \) \) \( yadalle cs ualberta ca \) god save queen , god bless us ! remember ! jesus saves lives eternal damnation ! newfoundland , keep good old clyde , vote liberal !
ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( andrew w \) subject ulf crushes valeri zelepukin organization university buffalo lines 13 news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host ubvmsb cc buffalo edu article newsserver pixel kodak com , clare ssd kodak com \( bill clare 726 9419 \) writes less says penguins game briefly saw ulf cross check valeri face wondering cherry going go coach 's corner nah , cherry spew ulf nailing good canadian boy idiot heart soul canadian patriotism , someone needs new hobby dr devils advocate women guns n't mix ubvms cc buffalo edu acsu buffalo edu mark arm
jpc philabs philips com \( john p curcio \) subject nhl playoff results games played 23 april 1993 organization philips laboratories , briarcliff , new york lines 122 nhl playoff results games played 23 april 1993 conference semi finals best seven patrick adams norris smythe nj buf \( leads 3 0 \) stl \( leads 3 0 \) win pit \( leads 3 0 \) bos chi van \( leads 2 1 \) nyi \( leads 2 1 \) mon tor la que \( leads 2 1 \) det \( leads 2 1 \) cal \( tied 2 1 \) detroit red wings \( lead series 2 1 \) 0 1 1 2 toronto maple leafs 2 0 2 4 dave andreychuk scored first two playoff goals toronto felix potvin stopped 34 36 red wing shots maple leafs first win series first period 1 , toronto , andreychuk 1 \( foligno , gilmour \) , 4 21 2 , toronto , andreychuk 2 \( gilmour \) , 7 37 second period 3 , detroit , fedorov 2 \( coffey , sheppard \) , 1 20 \( pp \) third period 4 , toronto , clark 1 \( gilmour , mironov \) , 4 44 \( pp \) 5 , toronto , pearson 1 \( clark , cullen \) , 9 32 6 , detroit , chiasson 2 \( konstantinov , fedorov \) , 14 14 shots goal detroit 9 19 8 36 toronto 13 8 12 33 power play opportunities detroit 1 5 toronto 1 8 goalies detroit , cheveldae , 2 1 \( 33 shots 29 saves \) toronto , potvin , 1 2 \( 36 34 \) 15 , 720 referee mark linesmen kevin collins , brian murphy chicago blackhawks 0 0 0 0 st louis blues \( lead series 3 0 \) 1 1 1 3 curtis joseph blanked blackhawks second straight game brett hull scored goal added assist lead blues 3 0 series lead chicago n't scored 131 09 play since brian noonan 's hat trick goal game 1 first period 1 , st louis , janney 1 \( hull , brown \) , 16 53 \( pp \) second period 2 , st louis , hull 3 \( miller \) , 12 31 third period 3 , st louis , emerson 1 \( felsner , shanahan \) , 16 44 shots goal chicago 9 12 13 34 st louis 7 13 4 24 power play opportunities chicago 0 4 st louis 1 7 goalies chicago , belfour , 0 3 \( 24 shots 21 saves \) st louis , joseph , 3 0 \( 34 34 \) 17 , 985 referee dan marouelli linesmen randy , shane vancouver canucks \( lead series 2 1 \) 1 2 1 4 winnipeg jets 3 0 2 5 teemu selanne broke mini slump hat trick , including game winner , lead jets 5 4 victory trevor linden pavel bure scored twice losing canucks first period 1 , winnipeg , tkachuk 1 \( housley \) , 3 52 2 , winnipeg , selanne 1 \( housley , shannon \) , 7 01 \( pp \) 3 , vancouver , bure 2 , 18 29 4 , winnipeg , selanne 2 \( shannon , housley \) , 19 57 \( pp \) second period 5 , vancouver , linden 2 \( ronning , lumme \) , 14 6 , vancouver , linden 3 \( adams , \) , 59 \( pp \) third period 7 , winnipeg , borsato 1 \( steen \) , 2 53 \( sh \) 8 , winnipeg , selanne 3 \( shannon \) , 9 35 9 , vancouver , bure 3 \( babych , \) , 15 52 shots goal vancouver 18 9 10 37 winnipeg 13 8 8 29 power play opportunities vancouver 1 8 winnipeg 2 6 goalies vancouver , mclean , 2 1 \( 29 shots 24 saves \) winnipeg , essensa , 1 2 \( 37 33 \) 15 , 569 referee kerry fraser linesmen gord , dan calgary flames \( lead series 2 1 \) 2 1 2 5 los angeles kings 0 1 1 2 \( tomorrow \) saturday , 24 april 1993 washington ny islanders \( ny islanders lead series 2 1 \) , 7 est boston buffalo \( buffalo leads series 3 0 \) , 7 est quebec montreal \( quebec leads series 2 1 \) , 8 10pm est sunday , 25 april 1993 pittsburgh new jersey \( pittsburgh leads series 3 0 \) , 1 10pm est chicago st louis \( st louis leads series 3 0 \) , 1 10pm est calgary los angeles \( calgary leads series 2 1 \) , 3 10pm est detroit toronto \( detroit leads series 2 1 \) , 7 10pm est vancouver winnipeg \( vancouver leads series 2 1 \) , 9 10pm est jpc john p curcio go bruins ! philips laboratories jpc philabs philips com 345 scarborough road \( 914 \) 945 6442 briarcliff manor , ny 10510
organization central michigan university ryan j cmuvm csv cmich edu subject thumbs espn lines 36 article 1993apr20 032017 5783 wuecl wustl edu , jca2 cec1 wustl edu \( joseph charles achkar \) says nice see espn show game 1 wings leafs since cubs astros got rained instead showing another baseball game , decided stanley cup playoffs classy move espn classy move looks like espn going devote coverage pens tuesday night , continued broadcast pen devil game even though pittsburgh game well control granted show bonus coverage caps isles cut away close game , went double ot , update us fifth goal thursday good game even second straight game pens devils imho program variety telecasts \( yes know game shown saturday b 's sabres , probably throwing bone us bruin fans \) cambell conference \? 'd like see game norris smythe back back nights national hockey night \? thought ryan \) l l e z l e b l u e ! ! !
jupiter sun csd unb ca \( rocket \) subject nhl playoff leaders penalty mins april 22 , 1993 organization university new brunswick distribution rec sport hockey lines 328 player team gp g pts pim lemieux pit 3 4 2 6 2 0 francis pit 3 1 5 6 5 4 oates bos 3 0 6 6 1 2 yzerman det 2 3 2 5 3 0 coffey det 2 0 5 5 1 0 hunter 3 5 0 5 4 10 mogilny buf 3 4 1 5 3 4 thomas nyi 3 2 3 5 6 0 lapointe que 3 1 4 5 2 2 johansson 3 0 5 5 1 4 carson la 2 4 0 4 0 2 brown stl 2 1 3 4 1 2 fleury cal 2 1 3 4 0 19 g courtnall van 2 1 3 4 3 2 flatley nyi 2 0 4 4 3 2 macinnis cal 2 0 4 4 1 4 ferraro nyi 3 3 1 4 2 2 mceachern pit 3 3 1 4 4 8 neely bos 3 3 1 4 1 4 turgeon nyi 3 3 1 4 5 0 bellows mon 3 2 2 4 0 0 jagr pit 3 2 2 4 3 0 khmylev buf 3 2 2 4 3 0 khristich 3 2 2 4 0 2 hawerchuk buf 3 1 3 4 0 2 hogue nyi 3 1 3 4 3 2 juneau bos 3 1 3 4 0 6 k stevens pit 3 1 3 4 1 6 l murphy pit 3 1 3 4 2 0 lafontaine buf 3 1 3 4 2 0 ramsey pit 3 0 4 4 3 4 smehlik buf 3 0 4 4 4 2 noonan chi 2 3 0 3 0 0 gilmour tor 2 2 1 3 1 12 hull stl 2 2 1 3 0 0 otto cal 2 2 1 3 2 2 reichel cal 2 2 1 3 0 0 bure van 2 1 2 3 2 0 drake det 2 1 2 3 2 0 linden van 2 1 2 3 4 2 nieuwendyk cal 2 1 2 3 1 2 roberts cal 2 0 3 3 2 4 young que 3 3 0 3 3 0 b sweeney buf 3 2 1 3 2 4 stevens nj 3 2 1 3 2 4 tocchet pit 3 2 1 3 0 2 carpenter 3 1 2 3 0 6 j mullen pit 3 1 2 3 2 2 ronning van 2 2 0 2 4 0 suter cal 2 2 0 2 0 4 yawney cal 2 2 0 2 3 4 adams van 2 1 1 2 2 0 chiasson det 2 1 1 2 1 4 craven van 2 1 1 2 2 2 cullen tor 2 1 1 2 1 0 dahlquist cal 2 1 1 2 2 4 king win 2 1 1 2 2 2 racine det 2 1 1 2 6 14 rychel la 2 1 1 2 1 19 shanahan stl 2 1 1 2 0 4 sheppard det 2 1 1 2 2 0 sydor la 2 1 1 2 0 4 barnes win 2 0 2 2 1 2 emerson stl 2 0 2 2 0 0 gill tor 2 0 2 2 2 0 granato la 2 0 2 2 1 4 gretzky la 2 0 2 2 3 0 housley win 2 0 2 2 2 0 janney stl 2 0 2 2 0 0 king nyi 2 0 2 2 4 6 kozlov det 2 0 2 2 1 2 sandstrom la 2 0 2 2 4 4 shuchuk la 2 0 2 2 1 2 vaske nyi 2 0 2 2 1 0 damphousse mon 3 1 1 2 0 0 elynuik 3 1 1 2 1 0 guerin nj 3 1 1 2 0 4 hannan buf 3 1 1 2 2 8 holik nj 3 1 1 2 1 4 muller mon 3 1 1 2 0 0 sakic que 3 1 1 2 0 0 semak nj 3 1 1 2 2 0 sundin que 3 1 1 2 1 2 taglianetti pit 3 1 1 2 3 6 pit 3 1 1 2 1 6 barasso pit 3 0 2 2 0 2 bondra 3 0 2 2 1 0 carney buf 3 0 2 2 3 4 cavallini 3 0 2 2 0 2 desjardins mon 3 0 2 2 0 0 duchesne que 3 0 2 2 1 2 niedermayer nj 3 0 2 2 1 2 ricci que 3 0 2 2 3 2 ridley 3 0 2 2 1 0 u samuelsson pit 3 0 2 2 4 6 blake la 1 0 1 1 2 0 borschevsky tor 1 0 1 1 0 0 zelepukin nj 1 0 1 1 2 0 b mullen nyi 2 1 0 1 2 0 burr det 2 1 0 1 1 2 domi win 2 1 0 1 2 4 fedorov det 2 1 0 1 2 2 felsner stl 2 1 0 1 1 0 howe det 2 1 0 1 4 2 huddy la 2 1 0 1 1 0 kurri la 2 1 0 1 2 2 lefebvre tor 2 1 0 1 0 12 lidstrom det 2 1 0 1 1 0 lowry stl 2 1 0 1 1 2 mcsorley la 2 1 0 1 3 12 millen la 2 1 0 1 2 4 mironov tor 2 1 0 1 1 2 numminen win 2 1 0 1 2 0 paslawski cal 2 1 0 1 1 0 steen win 2 1 0 1 4 0 ysebaert det 2 1 0 1 0 0 anderson tor 2 0 1 1 2 2 berube cal 2 0 1 1 1 15 chelios chi 2 0 1 1 1 2 ciccarelli det 2 0 1 1 1 14 clark tor 2 0 1 1 0 6 dahl cal 2 0 1 1 2 6 dipietro mon 2 0 1 1 0 0 donnelly la 2 0 1 1 1 2 ellett tor 2 0 1 1 3 0 gallant det 2 0 1 1 1 4 k brown chi 2 0 1 1 1 0 kennedy det 2 0 1 1 1 0 larmer chi 2 0 1 1 0 0 matteau chi 2 0 1 1 1 2 mclean van 2 0 1 1 0 0 mcrae stl 2 0 1 1 1 2 murzyn van 2 0 1 1 2 0 musil cal 2 0 1 1 0 5 pearson tor 2 0 1 1 1 21 primeau det 2 0 1 1 1 20 probert det 2 0 1 1 0 6 ranheim cal 2 0 1 1 2 0 robitaille la 2 0 1 1 4 2 roenick chi 2 0 1 1 1 0 selanne win 2 0 1 1 2 0 shannon win 2 0 1 1 4 0 skrudland cal 2 0 1 1 2 10 sutter chi 2 0 1 1 1 0 taylor la 2 0 1 1 1 0 zhitnik la 2 0 1 1 2 2 barr nj 3 1 0 1 0 6 bourque bos 3 1 0 1 2 2 burridge 3 1 0 1 2 0 dionne mon 3 1 0 1 0 0 heinze bos 3 1 0 1 0 0 leschyshyn que 3 1 0 1 1 4 presley buf 3 1 0 1 0 0 rucinsky que 3 1 0 1 1 2 smolinski bos 3 1 0 1 1 2 wood buf 3 1 0 1 1 4 brunet mon 3 0 1 1 0 0 daniels pit 3 0 1 1 1 0 donato bos 3 0 1 1 5 0 driver nj 3 0 1 1 3 4 que 3 0 1 1 2 0 buf 3 0 1 1 0 0 k samuelsson pit 3 0 1 1 2 0 kamensky que 3 0 1 1 1 4 krygier 3 0 1 1 0 4 loney pit 3 0 1 1 2 0 may 3 0 1 1 1 2 miller 3 0 1 1 3 0 odelein mon 3 0 1 1 0 0 pivonka 3 0 1 1 1 0 shaw bos 3 0 1 1 2 4 straka pit 3 0 1 1 0 0 mon 1 0 0 0 0 0 nj 1 0 0 0 0 0 druce win 1 0 0 0 0 0 eagles win 1 0 0 0 0 0 errey buf 1 0 0 0 0 4 mon 1 0 0 0 0 0 foligno tor 1 0 0 0 0 16 goulet chi 1 0 0 0 0 0 chi 1 0 0 0 0 2 hughes bos 1 0 0 0 0 2 kovalenko que 1 0 0 0 0 2 leeman mon 1 0 0 0 0 0 tor 1 0 0 0 2 0 tor 1 0 0 0 1 2 richer nj 1 0 0 0 4 0 mon 1 0 0 0 0 0 schneider mon 1 0 0 0 0 0 watters la 1 0 0 0 1 4 bos 1 0 0 0 1 4 andreychuk tor 2 0 0 0 2 2 ashton cal 2 0 0 0 1 2 babych van 2 0 0 0 2 2 baron stl 2 0 0 0 0 6 bassen stl 2 0 0 0 0 4 baumgartner tor 2 0 0 0 0 0 bautin win 2 0 0 0 2 2 belfour chi 2 0 0 0 0 0 berg tor 2 0 0 0 1 4 billington nj 2 0 0 0 0 0 blue bos 2 0 0 0 0 0 borsato win 2 0 0 0 2 0 bozon stl 2 0 0 0 0 0 butcher stl 2 0 0 0 2 0 cheveldae det 2 0 0 0 0 2 conacher la 2 0 0 0 2 0 corkum buf 2 0 0 0 0 0 diduck van 2 0 0 0 2 2 dirk van 2 0 0 0 0 2 erickson win 2 0 0 0 1 0 essensa win 2 0 0 0 0 2 gilbert chi 2 0 0 0 0 0 graham chi 2 0 0 0 0 0 hardy la 2 0 0 0 1 10 hedican stl 2 0 0 0 0 0 hrudey la 2 0 0 0 0 0 j lemieux chi 2 0 0 0 0 0 johansson cal 2 0 0 0 1 0 joseph stl 2 0 0 0 0 0 nj 2 0 0 0 2 0 kennedy win 2 0 0 0 0 0 konstantinov det 2 0 0 0 1 4 krushelnyski tor 2 0 0 0 2 0 van 2 0 0 0 0 0 lumme van 2 0 0 0 2 4 macoun tor 2 0 0 0 1 6 chi 2 0 0 0 1 6 miller stl 2 0 0 0 0 0 momesso van 2 0 0 0 1 2 moog bos 2 0 0 0 0 0 muni chi 2 0 0 0 1 0 murphy chi 2 0 0 0 1 4 murray chi 2 0 0 0 0 0 nedved van 2 0 0 0 2 2 olausson win 2 0 0 0 1 2 pearson que 2 0 0 0 0 0 potvin tor 2 0 0 0 0 6 quintal stl 2 0 0 0 1 0 ramage mon 2 0 0 0 0 0 ri sutter stl 2 0 0 0 0 0 rouse tor 2 0 0 0 2 0 russell chi 2 0 0 0 0 0 ruuttu chi 2 0 0 0 1 0 richer bos 2 0 0 0 1 0 smith chi 2 0 0 0 2 4 van 2 0 0 0 2 0 semenov van 2 0 0 0 0 0 stern cal 2 0 0 0 1 26 hunter van 2 0 0 0 0 2 sweeney bos 2 0 0 0 0 0 terreri nj 2 0 0 0 0 0 tkachuk win 2 0 0 0 3 10 ulanov win 2 0 0 0 1 4 van 2 0 0 0 0 2 vernon cal 2 0 0 0 0 2 wilson stl 2 0 0 0 0 4 zezel tor 2 0 0 0 2 2 zhamnov win 2 0 0 0 1 0 zombo stl 2 0 0 0 1 4 nj 3 0 0 0 1 0 anderson 3 0 0 0 1 0 audette buf 3 0 0 0 1 4 buf 3 0 0 0 3 0 mon 3 0 0 0 0 0 c lemieux nj 3 0 0 0 4 17 carbonneau mon 3 0 0 0 0 0 cavallini que 3 0 0 0 0 0 cote 3 0 0 0 3 0 sweeney bos 3 0 0 0 2 4 mon 3 0 0 0 0 0 dalgarno nyi 3 0 0 0 3 0 daneyko nj 3 0 0 0 1 2 douris bos 3 0 0 0 3 0 nj 3 0 0 0 5 0 finn que 3 0 0 0 1 0 fitzgerald nyi 3 0 0 0 0 0 foote que 3 0 0 0 1 0 fuhr buf 3 0 0 0 0 2 g roberts bos 3 0 0 0 1 4 haller mon 3 0 0 0 0 0 hatcher 3 0 0 0 1 2 healy nyi 3 0 0 0 0 0 hextall que 3 0 0 0 0 0 hough que 3 0 0 0 0 0 iafrate 3 0 0 0 2 0 jennings pit 3 0 0 0 0 4 jones 3 0 0 0 2 5 kasparaitis nyi 3 0 0 0 0 4 keane mon 3 0 0 0 0 0 kimble bos 3 0 0 0 0 0 krupp nyi 3 0 0 0 2 2 kvartalnov bos 3 0 0 0 0 2 leclair mon 3 0 0 0 0 0 leach bos 3 0 0 0 0 0 lebeau mon 3 0 0 0 0 0 ledyard buf 3 0 0 0 3 4 nyi 3 0 0 0 1 2 maclean nj 3 0 0 0 4 4 nyi 3 0 0 0 1 2 may buf 3 0 0 0 0 4 mckay nj 3 0 0 0 0 16 nicholls nj 3 0 0 0 4 4 nolan que 3 0 0 0 1 2 norton nyi 3 0 0 0 3 0 patterson buf 3 0 0 0 1 2 pilon nyi 3 0 0 0 1 22 poulin bos 3 0 0 0 4 0 roy mon 3 0 0 0 0 0 savard mon 3 0 0 0 0 0 simon que 3 0 0 0 1 2 pit 3 0 0 0 1 0 stastny nj 3 0 0 0 1 2 sutton buf 3 0 0 0 2 0 green nyi 3 0 0 0 3 0 tabaracci 3 0 0 0 0 4 vukota nyi 3 0 0 0 1 2 wesley bos 3 0 0 0 1 0 que 3 0 0 0 1 4 maurice richard
chuq apple com \( chuq von rospach \) subject sharks jack feirerra \( sharks kingston fired ! ! ! \) organization go sharks , go giants , inc lines 16 nntp posting host apple com mre teal eng sun com \( mike eisler \) writes 've loyal ticket holder , since day 1 \( literally \) spring '90 team announced i'm getting loyalty returned well , , see completely different guess 's matter perspective chuq imho von rospach , esd support training \( dal aux \) chuq apple com member , sfwa editor , otherrealms genie mac bigot alink chuq minor league fans minors request medraut apple com \( san jose giants 1 9 \) san francisco giants fans giants request medraut apple com \( stick \? ! \) san jose sharks fans sharks request medraut apple com \( new seat 127 tbd \)
jca2 cec1 wustl edu \( joseph charles achkar \) subject blues shutout hawks , lead series 3 0 nntp posting host cec1 organization washington university , st louis mo lines 118 4 23 93 blues shutout hawks , lead series 3 0 great atmosphere last night st louis arena joseph blues shutout hawks second consecutive game people cheering blues long face time , kept going entire game friends went celebrating early morning hours players 's game summary st louis post enjoy dave post dispatch staff 10 24 p friday night , arena crowd 17 , 965 paid blues goalie curtis joseph fans began , arms extended , taking lead fan held sign read god saves joseph fitting tribute joseph , brought blues verge surprising sweep joseph recorded second successive shutout friday , blanking blackhawks 3 0 game 3 norris division semifinals giving blues 3 0 lead best seven series blackhawks n't scored joseph since 8 51 mark second period game 1 joseph shut blackhawks 151 minutes 9 seconds , blues record jacques plante held previous record 146 28 , set first round 1969 playoffs philadelphia flyers , one two series blues history blues wrap first sweep since 1969 victory game 4 , nationally televised game begins noon sunday blues two sweeps franchise history , 1969 , swept philadelphia los angeles en route stanley cup finals shutout friday easier wednesday game 2 joseph make 47 saves time , blues held shots 34 , blackhawks could n't touch joseph well , touched joseph , numerous times , shoving pushing every opportunity try get game joseph blues , punishment along way blues' bob bassen , rich sutter , kevin miller dave lowry wore blackhawks , taking visitors chicago game set stage boys , gifted scorers , made opportunities craig janney , brett hull nelson emerson scored , getting one goal period hull assisted janney 's first period power play goal two unwise chicago penalties checker miller set hull 's goal second period , rookie denny felsner assisted emerson , scored 16 44 final period blues fans jumped feet celebration goal began yelling sweep sweep also taunted chicago goalie ed belfour four bell four also chanted , na na na , hey hey good bye talk tad premature 's still one game left , blues roll blackhawks heels blues set tone early friday two crunching hits first minute play rich sutter leveled bryan , brendan shanahan dumped steve smith center ice chicago tried retaliate , troy murray 's decision run joseph referee dan marouelli gave roughing penalty blues n't get shot goal power play , survived scare chicago killed penalty rick zombo gave puck away steve larmer joseph stopped larmer 's shot everything else chicago threw first period ignored scouting report joseph shooting high continued shoot low , joseph 's style deadly rookie bret hedican picked three consecutive penalties midway period two hooking one holding chicago got two shots goal , many miller blues' penalty killer twice stole puck missed good scoring chances belfour marouelli began calling penalties blackhawks even things caught brent sutter hooking shanahan four seconds hedican 's third penalty called janney along boards 14 58 , gave blues two man advantage 1 07 later christian ruuttu slashed shanahan blues worked around puck ensuing power play , hull got likes high slot hull 's shot hit belfour 's right shoulder , puck bounced close goal line belfour back cover , puck squirted loose janney , poked net 16 53 first goal playoffs blues continued relentless hitting period ended , blackhawks lost joe murphy tripped ron wilson two seconds remaining period , time expired smith upset blues shooting puck blues' bench chris chelios made move toward joseph teams left ice , marouelli slapped 10 minute misconduct chicago survived blues' power play , loss chelios hurt n't return midway point period , within three minutes return , hull increased blues' lead 2 0 , miller 's crisp pass try might , blackhawks could n't get joseph , stopped everything could throw stopped 12 shots second period 13 third chicago also hit twice emerson 's goal put game away went hard net redirected felsner 's pass \) l l e z l e b l u e ! ! ! joe ashkar contact blues saint louis jca2 cec1 wustl edu \( \) blues
nhmas gauss med harvard edu \( mark shneyder 432 4219 \) subject espn2 tell us organization hms lines 23 nntp posting host gauss med harvard edu article usenet ins cwru edu mac18 po cwru edu \( michael cornell \) writes usa today says late year question , hockey moved espn2 , game week espn , bunch games espn2 \? yes espn2 launched early september cap cities currently working cable companies ensure good start base needed launch brand new cable service problem espn2 faces tci cablevision connection merger prime sportschannel networks prime sportschannel try away nhl espn season also , tci cablevision control large number cable systems around country total 15 million subscribers tci cablevision best espn2 never gets ground successfully nhl 's value suddenly cable war prime sc espn nhl vital survival prime sportschannel since virtually national major league sports contracts cover local nhl nba mlb sports teams ppv mark
schock flip cpsc ucalgary ca \( craig richard schock \) subject nhl team captains reply schock flip cpsc ucalgary ca organization university calgary computer science lines 14 article 1993apr22 mtroyal ab ca writes , subject , captain ever traded , resigned , striped title season \? team captain trivia would appreciated brad captain flames traded detroit following 1989 90 season season though 's countless examples captains traded , i'm sure yeah think flames flyers traded captains mel brad marsh craig
gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) subject espn2 tell us nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) organization phds hall lines 31 nhmas gauss med harvard edu \( mark shneyder 432 4219 \) writes problem espn2 faces tci cablevision connection merger prime sportschannel networks prime sportschannel try away nhl espn season also , tci cablevision control large number cable systems around country total 15 million subscribers tci cablevision best espn2 never gets ground successfully nhl 's value suddenly cable war prime sc espn nhl vital survival prime sportschannel since virtually national major league sports contracts cover local nhl nba mlb sports teams note ominous prospect fueled fact various sc prime outlets wholly partly owned local nhl owners cablevision vp chuck 's purchase islanders goes , islanders back scny fold \( original owners , 've remained due lucrative tv contract \) flyer philadelphia sc well prism pay channel six teams affiliated regional sc 's , another half dozen affiliated prime outlets , locals like hts barter arrangements cross ownership , surprised espn got deal season ! ! gld je souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go ! ! ! gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
alumni lakeheadu ca subject leafs revenge ! summary leafs take game two detroit ! ! organization external relations , lakehead university lines 6 tonight see toronto maple leafs , guessed , come hitting ! buds grind detroit ground walk away home ice advantage remainder series given shift toronto , last long \( keep mind \) get game however otherwise probert dominate physical front
jpc philabs philips com \( john p curcio \) subject nhl playoff results games played 23 april 1993 organization philips laboratories , briarcliff , new york lines 23 article 1993apr24 philabs philips com jpc philabs philips com \( john p curcio \) writes nhl playoff results games played 23 april 1993 conference semi finals best seven patrick adams norris smythe nyi \( leads 2 1 \) mon tor la que \( leads 2 1 \) det \( leads 2 1 \) cal \( tied 2 1 \) k people , 's tied meant leads 2 1 shoot must jpc john p curcio go bruins ! philips laboratories jpc philabs philips com 345 scarborough road \( 914 \) 945 6442 briarcliff manor , ny 10510
farenebt logic camp clarkson edu \( droopy \) subject college hockey star game roster organization clarkson university lines 67 nntp posting host logic clarkson edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 someone asked rosters college hockey senior star shrine game held , maine earlier month west derek plante minn duluth \( west mvp game \) greg johnson n dakota bryan smolinski mich st fred st cloud state chris campbell wisconsin superior glenn lang uw superior chris bergeron miami joe cook miami jamie brett bowling green david roberts michigan todd uw stevens point john young mich tech brett minn duluth pat michigan barry richter wisconsin mike smith lssu chris st shaun ak \( goalie \) tom newman minnesota bryan denver ron mason mich st \( coach \) steve nelson uw superior jim knapp minn duluth east jack duffy yale chris scott meehan mass lowell aaron miller vermont kevin bu chris potter connecticut ray middlebury greg st lawrence bob providence steve clarkson dan merrimack ryan hughes cornell mark yale matt harvard chris mcgee scott rit jim montgomery maine david sacco bu chris clarkson \( goalie \) \( east 's mvp game \) garth snow maine grant wood hamilton brian brown \( coach \) shawn walsh maine bruce connecticut original rosters may changes actual game \( guys able participate whatever \) bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl , ecac boston bruins contact rec sport hockey adirondack red wings , calder cup champs '81 '86 '89 '92 clarkson hockey , ecac tournament champs '66 '91 '93 glens falls high hockey , ny division ii state champs '90 '91 ahl fans join ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu
farenebt craft camp clarkson edu \( droopy \) subject ahl playoff results , thurs fri organization clarkson university lines 31 nntp posting host craft clarkson edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 ahl playoff scores first round \( home team caps \) games played thurs , 4 22 rochester 4 utica 3 \( ot \) games played fri , 4 23 binghamton 8 baltimore 3 moncton 5 st john 's 4 \( ot \) springfield 4 providence 2 series \( plural status \? \) adirondack defeated cdi , 4 0 springfield leads providence , 3 2 binghamton leads baltimore , 2 1 rochester leads utica , 3 1 st john 's leads moncton , 3 1 cape breton leads fredericton , 3 1 bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl , ecac boston bruins contact rec sport hockey adirondack red wings , calder cup champs '81 '86 '89 '92 clarkson hockey , ecac tournament champs '66 '91 '93 glens falls high hockey , ny division ii state champs '90 '91 ahl fans join ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu
yadallee ersys edmonton ab ca \( dave shariff yadallee \) subject oiler 's rumour team moving \? press conference next week organization edmonton remote systems 1 , edmonton , ab , canada lines 38 allan cs ualberta ca \( allan sullivan \) writes heard story local sports news broadcast edmonton oiler owner peter pocklington holding press conference next week exact details known , believed concern oiler 's future rumour pocklington signed tentative lease arrangement hamilton press conference , pocklington may announce deal quite possible deal may simply way force edmonton northlands oiler lease stadium northlands offered buy oilers 65 million earlier , offer rejected immediately pocklington , opinion divided edmonton fairly supportive oilers even though 're small market team , many sellouts 80s even problems team year , still brought fans many teams larger cities hand , team move , place deserving hamilton course , would affect grand realignment scheme bettman \? following , provincial government asked opposition block deal pocklington offering hamilton government said going nowhere ! n't believe government \? n't pocklington wanted tory leader 9 years ago \? dave shariff yadallee \( b sc \( econ math \) \( u alberta 1990 \) \) \( yadallee ersys edmonton ab ca \) god save queen , god bless us ! remember ! jesus saves lives eternal damnation ! newfoundland , keep good old clyde , vote liberal !
farenebt craft camp clarkson edu \( droopy \) subject calder cup schedule organization clarkson university lines 67 nntp posting host craft clarkson edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 full 1993 calder cup playoff schedule results home team caps necesary first round springfield indians vs providence bruins gm 1 springfield 3 providence 2 gm 2 springfield 5 providence 4 gm 3 providence 3 springfield 2 gm 4 providence 9 springfield 0 gm 5 springfield 4 providence 2 gm 6 4 24 providence springfield gm 7 4 27 springfield providence cd islanders vs adirondack red wings gm 1 adirondack 6 cdi 2 gm 2 adirondack 5 cdi 3 gm 3 adirondack 3 cdi 0 gm 4 adirondack 3 cdi 1 \( adirondack wins series , 4 0 \) baltimore skipjacks binghamton rangers gm 1 baltimore 4 binghamton 3 gm 2 binghamton 6 baltimore 2 gm 3 binghamton 8 baltimore 3 gm 4 4 24 binghamton baltimore gm 5 4 26 baltimore binghamton gm 6 4 28 binghmaton baltimore gm 7 4 30 baltimore binghamton utica devils vs rochester americans gm 1 utica 3 rochester 2 \( ot \) gm 2 rochester 9 utica 3 gm 3 rochester 6 utica 4 gm 4 rochester 4 utica 3 \( ot \) gm 5 4 24 utica rochester gm 6 4 26 rochester utica gm 7 4 28 utica rochester moncton hawks vs st john 's maple leafs gm 1 st john's 4 moncton 2 \( halifax \) gm 2 st john's 3 moncton 2 \( halifax \) gm 3 st john 's 6 moncton 5 gm 4 moncton 5 st john 's 4 \( ot \) gm 5 4 26 moncton vs st john 's halifax gm 6 4 28 st john 's moncton gm 7 4 30 moncton vs st john 's halifax cape breton oilers vs fredericton canadiens gm 1 fredericton 4 cape breton 3 \( 2ot \) gm 2 cape breton 5 fredericton 2 gm 3 cape breton 3 fredericton 0 gm 4 cape breton 6 fredericton 5 \( ot \) gm 5 4 24 cape breton fredericton gm 6 4 26 fredericton cape breton gm 7 4 28 cape breton fredericton \( note series ap reports cb series 4 1 , original schedule , game 5 n't supposed tonight oilers 3 1 \) bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl , ecac boston bruins contact rec sport hockey adirondack red wings , calder cup champs '81 '86 '89 '92 clarkson hockey , ecac tournament champs '66 '91 '93 glens falls high hockey , ny division ii state champs '90 '91 ahl fans join ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu
brifre1 ac dal ca subject potvin stick organization dalhousie university , halifax , nova scotia , canada lines 38 article netnews upenn edu , kkeller mail sas upenn edu \( keith keller \) writes prefer watch hockey seeing shots felix potvin slashing spearing dino standing front net every right stand front net , crease ! yes , , goalie sure hell n't want ! played roller hockey \( boy miss days \) goalie , would scream defense clear guys slot n't care 's crease , get hell away see ball ! \( yes , roller hockey , remember \) nobody around clear slot , 'd pushing offending player hard hate people way i'm goalie , sure felix say n't see incident , potvin really swung stick big time , 's right , move people way 's player ice , know \) keith keller let's go rangers ! ! ! ! ! kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs ! ! ! ! corner let's go quakers ! ! ! ! ! weighing almost every weight imaginable life , surrounds blues traveler , 1993 agree wholeheartedly view n't like see stickwork , clear players away front personal favorite move \( i'm goalie \) give player good whack back skates ref n't looking makes 'em go like ton bricks , n't cause injuries unless n't know fall \( i'm talking hitting blades , foot \) also makes player hit anyone sees really mad apt take stupid retaliation penalty unfortunately , also leaves position short time n't shot likely short side hmm maybe mail potvin method \( french helpful diagrams , course \) sure would nice see \( great deal respect , btw , 's big guy , plays huge ! \) fall back times ! \) barfly
jca2 cec1 wustl edu \( joseph charles achkar \) subject 're real 're spectacular keywords blues , hawks , seinfeld nntp posting host cec1 organization washington university , st louis mo lines 36 're real 're spectacular , blues shutout blackhawks consecutive playoff games blues sweep hawks sunday , launch onto ice last seconds game 's anything wrong curtis joseph master domain , hawks shooting puck like bunch even superman could play better goal joseph must eating cereal 's like said spectator hot atmosphere wild crowd arena refreshing see blues double dip hawks hawks goons tried pick hull , janney , joseph blues checking line hawks real well fat sing sunday , hawks head beach trip back chicago feel like long journey milan enjoy sunday 's game junior wash little fun \) l l e z l e b l u e ! ! ! joe ashkar contact blues saint louis jca2 cec1 wustl edu \( \) blues
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject stan fischler , 4 22 organization university toronto chemistry department lines 25 article 1993apr24 news columbia edu gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) writes roger neilson property among rumours , 's 1 candidate coach flyers , bring along colin campbell assistant would dumb move nineties lindros big strong give ball chain one leg anchor drag along actively scouting phoenix new team 94 95 hey , nick jimmy buy devils fix , please ! gld pocklington gets first ! \( actually , pocklington n't get better deal , would probably go hamilton taking team canada would get whole country mad taking team hamilton would n't get anybody mad n't mad already would make lot friends southern ontario many whining stupid politicians edmonton spoiled fans would n't noticed edmonton would gerald
allan cs ualberta ca \( allan sullivan \) subject 's nickname grapes \( cherry help , \) nntp posting host swanlake cs ualberta ca organization university alberta , edmonton , canada lines 22 gjhsun \( george h \) writes lmarsha cms cc wayne edu \( laurie marshall \) writes got nickname 'grapes' i'm sure use coach boston bruins n't know exactly could someone fill info \? think name 'grapes' came coach \( bruins \? minors \? \) used chew grapes keep getting dehydrated games dog blue may named 'cause liked beer anyone know \? according quotations chairman cherry , playing springfield another player pay fines player paid , n't want called player teacher 's pet , player replied ah , 's sour grapes n't know accurate , 's 's printed
brifre1 ac dal ca subject leafs win ! \( thank potvin \) organization dalhousie university , halifax , nova scotia , canada lines 17 's time boys got together ! ! outplayed wings first two games burns must kicked cause sure came full gear \( high gear \? \) game 3 except 10 15 minute stretch 2nd period , wings please n't flame statement 'cos know 's true ! admit goaltending key potvin kept leafs ahead stretch leafs went 2nd also kept rebounds minimum , something cost cheveldae 2 goals clark even looked like stopped \( first star ! \) , although still n't know flat games 1 2 leafs play style keep pace game 3 , may actually chance winning series \( slim chance , chance i'm rm anyways \? haha \) barfly
farenebt craft camp clarkson edu \( droopy \) subject ahl leafs back home \? organization clarkson university lines 15 nntp posting host craft clarkson edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 apparently , public strike st john 's , newfoundland strike , since mid january , forced st john 's maple leafs hockey team play home games cities toronto , cornwall charlottetown playing playoff home games halifax , nova scotia management said could return st john 's second round bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl , ecac boston bruins contact rec sport hockey adirondack red wings , calder cup champs '81 '86 '89 '92 clarkson hockey , ecac tournament champs '66 '91 '93 glens falls high hockey , ny division ii state champs '90 '91 ahl fans join ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu
ua256 freenet victoria bc ca \( tom moffat \) subject interview guests nntp posting host freenet victoria bc ca organization camosun college , victoria b c , canada lines 14 ever noticed hockey player interviewed periods tv game usually get goal assist explain usually talk stars regular players explains percentage results wondering everybody else thinks dont care trivial nonsense tom tom moffat victoria b c canada
randolin polisci umn edu \( robert andolina \) subject sabres bruins nntp posting host polisci umn edu organization department political science , university minnesota lines 18 buffalo fans people discussion group , well commentator al espn , believe game 3 critical sabres ! ! ! ! ! sabres ahead 2 games 0 , behind life long sabres fan , well aware ability choke , let 's exaggerate long sabres win one next 2 games \( game 3 game 4 \) , still good shape \( ahead 3 games 1 \) , game 6 played buffalo lose games three four , start worrying game 3 critical boston , buffalo rob andolina randolin polisci umn edu
nhmas gauss med harvard edu \( mark shneyder 432 4219 \) subject buffalo 4 , boston 0 defense ! ! organization hms lines 27 nntp posting host gauss med harvard edu article 1993apr21 alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) writes fuhr proving fuhr bashers wrong , boston awfully good team yeh , 1 sutter 's playoff record head coach st l n't impressive blues teams eliminated early playoffs n't look like trend change bruins 2 bruins never come back win falling behind 2 0 entire 68 year history n't look like buffalo lose next two games aud way fuhr standing head basically , bruins golf course next weekend also , seems like whole boston area gone baseball crazy incredibly great start red sox \( best record major leagues \) would say 70 callers flagship station \( 590 \) talking red sox , 15 upcoming draft , 10 celtics 5 bruins somehow , one around really way bruins folding early ppv mark
nhmas gauss med harvard edu \( mark shneyder 432 4219 \) subject upcoming tv schedule organization hms lines 16 distribution na nntp posting host gauss med harvard edu hey , guess 's coming espn change \? playoff n't involve pens anything wrong espn games thursday pens devils 7 30 \( gary thorne bill clement \) saturday caps ny isles 7 30 \( tom mees john davidson \) abc game sunday pens devils 1 00 \( gary thorne bill clement \) espn named 2 broadcast team tuesday paired tom mees \( play play \) john davidson \( analyst \) ppv mark
freenet carleton ca \( w jon \) subject play offs thoughts reply freenet carleton ca \( w jon \) organization national capital freenet lines 37 well , 're almost halfway first round , far things good general 1 2 teams hate chicago 3 zip \( even though possibility either still win series , yet ego thrashing arrogance smashing underdogs \( st louis buffalo \) \) 2 montreal stage team 's life good enough go way , yet good able get \( really \) good draft picks \( 3 , anyone also think year cup final played 2 teams wales \? 4 're playing montreal find arrogant 's , really \? 5 smythe \? \? \? \? i'm really getting sick seeing wendel night night see canucks jets flames action ! 6 cherry alright , hey politicians q get cross maple leaf \? six weeks hockey ! , dudes go habs ! jon carleton freenet ca
spiegel msd lmsc lockheed com \( mark spiegel \) subject 1993 nhl draft organization personal opinions inc lines 39 article 1993apr20 newshub ariel yorku ca cs902043 ariel yorku ca \( shawn luddington \) writes article 93109 maine maine edu jon carr io91748 maine maine edu writes draft year \? coverage \? know nfl draft espn anyone got details \? paul kariya 1993 1 pick ! \( 2 perhaps \? wo n't last long ! \) \) n't know exact coverage states canada covered tsn , maybe espn grab coverage ! n't know ! picks ottawa picks 1 means almost 100 alexander daigle go 1 'll either stay traded montreal quebec imo would take kariya alot leadership ncaa far world championships daigle n't show junior team san jose get kariya tampa bay either go russian kozlov \( think 's \) defenseman rob \( probably last name wrong \) sharks appear leaning toward picking rob niedermayer , center \( brother scott \( \? \) defenseman picked nj couple years ago \) brought physical week ago read niedermayer best skater draft , plays offense defense , n't afraid physical play defensively sharks looking pretty good terms defense prospects \( , , \) , centers \( kisio et al \) getting old small players sharks can't see picking yet another small player like kariya , 'd get bashed get separated shoulder mark
lead egr msu edu \( terminator \) subject espn organization college engineering , michigan state university lines 24 distribution world nntp posting host lead egr msu edu article randolin 3 polisci umn edu , randolin polisci umn edu \( robert andolina \) writes thing confuses espn decided show penguins devils thursday night first two games dominated pitt , would think would show different game addition fact show games sake fair exposure espn must poor marketing people concerned featuring players \( e mario \) featuring good competitive hockey also , know \( far tell \) espn going show campbell conference games regularly first two rounds believe going show campbell games first two rounds series wear \( games 6 7 , perhaps games 5 , 6 , 7 \) 've heard market east coast hence would prefer wales stuff also , n't expect canadian teams espn summary , want see network provides good hockey coverage , watch cbc canada may biased toward canadian teams , n't treat viewers like idiots , provide nice updates , cherry always provide laughs
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject espn cares less hockey organization university toronto chemistry department lines 32 article 1993apr21 vax cns muskingum edu jbrown vax cns muskingum edu writes espn pathetic , watching everybody complain espn 's coverage agree might suggest getting worked nothing knew espn 's coverage going suck mean ever watched regular season sportscenter coverage hockey \? sucks , mean really sucks ! ! ! espn know hockey shot ass really pissed last night , coverage go school ohio know indians suck , show \? bill clement would shoot anyway calmed realized going show overtime caps isles game thought knew going happen , fact praying least would keep even boring devils game overall think espn care show hockey firmly belive know respect fans ie contract obligations , screw espn praise hockey fans put shit ! go hawks ! ! ! price hockey fans pay mistake leaving espn 5 6 years ago take time correct mistake returning espn correct decision last year next time , may potential sportschannel espn really compete offer better coverage forced deliver gerald
ferguson cs rochester edu \( george ferguson \) subject 's rochester \? \? \? reply ferguson cs rochester edu \( george ferguson \) organization university rochester hockey science dept distribution na lines 25 sabres 2 0 bruins sabres' farm team , rochester , way calder cup \( ! \) kind hockey coverage getting \? penguins devils every day crap everyone else gets 's worse , sportschannel coverage islanders appears blocked , since got basketball last night , believe assume sabres demanding sc blackout , espn , since , unbelievably , usually considered part islanders territory \( msg coverage rangers blacked \) despite solid seven hours plus long island anyone know , besides putting satellite dish ass screwing reception channels 8 , 10 , 13 \? empire demand fortune games \? games \( whatever number buffalo \) \? anyone phoned complain \( besides \) \? george george ferguson arpa ferguson cs rochester edu dept computer science uucp rutgers ! rochester ! ferguson university rochester vox \( 716 \) 275 2527 rochester ny 14627 0226 fax \( 716 \) 461 2018
dchhabra stpl ists ca \( deepak chhabra \) subject grant fuhr leads sabres nntp posting host stpl ists ca organization solar terresterial physics laboratory , ists lines 19 article 1993apr21 wuecl wustl edu jca2 cec1 wustl edu \( joseph charles achkar \) writes buffalo 2 0 series boston , reason grant fuhr \? fuhr playoff hungry , 's proving call money goaltender fuhr might one best goaltenders league anymore \( statistically least \) , 's proving make big save right time leafs kept fuhr , probably would chance powerhouse detroit game 1 \? applauded sabres making deal get fuhr , specifically thought would help win least one playoff series however , n't think leafs faulted either nothing say felix wo n't winning playoff series years come anyway , anybody else find ironic fuhr moog \? \( least guy named alex showed \) \)
ragraca vela acs oakland edu \( randy graca \) subject radio stations organization oakland university , rochester , michigan , u lines 26 nntp posting host vela acs oakland edu cleveland freenet edu \( theodore g benjamin \) writes mon apr 19 15 46 40 1993 , greanias texas mitre org \( steve greanias \) wrote cable nights caps n't play , would like tune games anyone list radio stations broadcast games nhl teams \? ones remember offhand kdka 1020 pittsburgh penguins lori , regular penguins poster rec sport hockey , indicated via e mail nights pirates baseball penguins playoff games coincide , pens covered wdve fm \( 102 5 \) wabc 770 new jersey devils 780 chicago blackhawks \( \? \) 720 detroit redwings wjr detroit 's 760 however , neglected mention earlier response thread , nights tigers baseball games coincide playoff games , wings carried fm \( 98 7 \)
cs ucsd edu \( mike \) subject espn thumbs ! ! organization cse dept , u c san diego lines 11 nntp posting host tartarus ucsd edu article 1993apr20 wkuvx1 bitnet kozloce wkuvx1 bitnet writes ! \( oh guess score 7 0 penguins ! switch games ! ! ! \) guess game espn showing area thursday yep , pens devils many interesting series , cares mario \? \? \? mike
sclark epas utoronto ca \( susan clark \) subject pat burns organization university toronto epas keywords leaf wings nntp posting host epas utoronto ca lines 6 borchevsky gilmour think gilmour slightly outweighs borchevsky andreychuk also , think susan oops !
cobra chopin udel edu \( king cobra \) subject espn f ck nntp posting host chopin udel edu organization university delaware lines 37 article wavefront wti com matthew wavefront wti com \( matt \) writes espn \( fortunate baseball game \) showed red wings toronto game cool swear advertisements week long said espn would show pitt nj tuesday bos buff thursday raced home work early \( 4 30 pacific \) catch game , alas , boston buffalo game promised would show pitt nj game thursday overnight changed mind hell u talking \? espn showed pens devils game advertised morons espn know pens kick devils ass game boring 'd rather see boston buffalo game seems exciting series since noone expected buffalo get past first round well let 's hope change mind thu 's game show game pens series really getting boring want see exciting game matter wins nhl wants major network contract better put brains espn people experience makes person make new mistakes instead old one e mail cobra chopin udel edu
allan cs ualberta ca \( allan sullivan \) subject cherry coach 's corner summary april 21 , 1993 nntp posting host swanlake cs ualberta ca organization university alberta , edmonton , canada lines 83 's summary cherry 's coach 's corner april 21 , 1993 game broadcast region la calgary , although think filmed toronto detroit game night \( warning anti fighting people may want skip post \) topics 's tie , grant fuhr , penalties , wings vs leafs , fighting , dale hunter episode summary episode began camera 's tie pointing characters tie bugs bunny , foghorn leghorn , sam \( called macdonald \) ron maclean began mentioning almost evicted hotel watching previous night 's games , yelling cheering play hunter fuhr began praise fuhr , calling greatest goalie , said 's winning series boston showed clips earlier episodes \( nov 14 , jan 16 \) fuhr still leafs , advised n't trade fuhr ! went predict buffalo gets boston , would fuhr wins series muckler took lot heat trade , feels muckler 's vindicated next topic involved playoff games ruined many penalty calls showed clip winnipeg vancouver game , domi hit vancouver player , given 2 min penalty ron said called penalty stick involved , stuck opinion good hit , domi hitting vancouver player shoulder sad 're hockey 5 minute penalty next , went playoff series detroit toronto people detroit calling wendel clarke wendy fighting however , pointed probert fighting either lead fighting stickwork , banning fighting leads high sticking 's like college hockey little wee guy brave anybody 's 're seeing much stickwork know wo n't drop gloves give shot rules made people n't know 's going hockey final topic discussed dale hunter pointed leading league goals , showed clip hunter previous game younger , hunter taught play win , differs today 's idea letting kids fun end episode , showed clip coach 's corner , tape fast forward , sounded like one rating typical anti fighting posturing , much humour , good quotes 'd give 7 0 10 allan sullivan \( allan cs ualberta ca \) department computing science , university alberta , edmonton , alberta , canada \( \) opinions mine mine alone amazing much accomplished one cares gets credit u golden bears hockey motto \( c drake \)
allan cs ualberta ca \( allan sullivan \) subject cherry coach 's corner summary april 23 , 1993 nntp posting host swanlake cs ualberta ca organization university alberta , edmonton , canada lines 80 's summary cherry 's coach 's corner april 23 , 1993 taken tape delay vancouver winnipeg game , filmed toronto detroit game night think also shown calgary la game \( warning anti fighting people may want skip post \) topics 's tie , doug gilmour , wings leafs , quebec montreal , boston buffalo , wendel clark , fighting stickwork episode summary , episode started shot 's tie different tie last time pointed characters tie , gave different names felix cat \( \) , maclean \( daffy duck \) , etc ron maclean asked thought current wings leafs game thought good burns told leaf players building , 're going win began praise gilmour pointed gilmour never got less 2 points goal game since got 5 points game st louis \( also claims gave lot encouragement gilmour , partly responsible good play \) several clips shown gilmour series hit , pass resulting goal game , wings taking lot penalties first period wings enough talent score short handed however , leafs get power play , coach burns tells leaf players n't let score ron brought previous quebec montreal game note montreal game overtime , despite possible game winner disqualified batted high stick thought high stick obvious , even without use instant replay buffalo boston series note buffalo currently winning series 3 0 , gave full credit goaltender grant fuhr fuhr getting 1 2 team 's playoff checks play wendel clarke recently criticized performance detroit toronto series defended , saying ca n't play way , league 's new rules used rough tough league hack slash blame gil problems 's opinions fighting stickwork shared wings gm coach bryan murray clip news conference murray shown , murray made statements claiming elimination fighting increases stickwork also read newspaper article murray makes following statements players n't fight 're afraid getting thrown game instead , settle getting sticks fans want see \? guarantee would n't many fighting kept game warned league gary bettman smarten fighting hockey went say , used one guy cut high stick series , fights , someone gets cut every period rating typical anti fighting posturing , 's opinion supported murray 'd give 7 0 10
cobra chopin udel edu \( king cobra \) subject espn nntp posting host chopin udel edu organization university delaware lines 26 article randolin 3 polisci umn edu randolin polisci umn edu \( robert andolina \) writes thing confuses espn decided show penguins devils thursday night first two games dominated pitt , would think would show different game addition fact show games sake fair exposure also , know \( far tell \) espn going show campbell conference games regularly first two rounds believe going show campbell games first two rounds series wear \( games 6 7 , perhaps games 5 , 6 , 7 \) also , anyone info abc coverage sunday \( 4 25 \) \? espn advertise pens devils game 4 n't know hell trying , especially nfl draft well guess goes nhl ratings sundays game robert andolina randolin polisci umn edu
chuq apple com \( chuq von rospach \) subject sharks kingston fired ! ! ! organization go sharks , go giants , inc lines 62 nntp posting host apple com snichols adobe com \( sherri nichols \) writes article morrow stanford edu steve sep stanford edu \( steve cole \) writes think three headed gm 's guiding principle keep veterans favor youngsters offered significant advantage n't sound like bad strategy , fact , ferreira 's original strategy , proceeded simply continue implement n't exactly radical shift policy \( something people seem forget \) real question whether well ferreira could stayed , whether basic strategy flawed \( since ferreira saying 's going something different anaheim ducks , guess n't good practice paper , 's tweaking bit second time around \) one also wonder whether strategy would lot better n't injuries , whether 're complaining weather earthquake collapsed root cellar course , ferreira also traded number veterans marginal contributions fired , 's clear would different besides , marginal contributors let 's also forget ferreira came close trading kelly kisio , , rumors 've heard true , strong objections aspects shark management probably lot three headed , consensus oriented gm imagine , second , sharks would today fax machine n't jammed without mullen , n't going playoff team good hang onto player 'd rather elsewhere \? especially unhappy player n't playing well 'd accuse mullen , motivation simply n't , kind thing affect team example season , skriko brought trial basis kept , age thought decent contributor worth keeping around youth movement advantages look gaudreau might still kc veterans kept around find right balance right balance \? 's issue exactly time let skriko go , n't yet major injury bugs killed us later 'd much rather skriko around someone like dean kolstad , point , n't choice since choice one skriko vs someone like john carter , think right choice made time period chuq imho von rospach , esd support training \( dal aux \) chuq apple com member , sfwa editor , otherrealms genie mac bigot alink chuq minor league fans minors request medraut apple com \( san jose giants 1 9 \) san francisco giants fans giants request medraut apple com \( stick \? ! \) san jose sharks fans sharks request medraut apple com \( new seat 127 tbd \)
sco com \( anthony \) subject nhl draft organization sco canada , inc lines 3 believe nhl draft june 18th weekend
machnik ctron com \( michael c machnik \) subject goalie stats organization cabletron systems inc lines 124 nntp posting host pong ctron com nin15b34 merrimack edu article access usask ca , coulman cs usask ca \( randy coulman \) writes path ctron news ctron com ! noc near net ! uunet ! ! newsflash concordia ca ! mi cc umanitoba ca ! access usask ca ! cs usask ca ! coulman coulman cs usask ca \( randy coulman \) newsgroups rec sport hockey subject final regular season individual goalie stats date wed , 21 apr 93 12 27 59 edt organization university saskatchewan lines 103 distribution world message id access usask ca reply coulman cs usask ca nntp posting host skorpio usask ca would appreciate someone could volunteer verify shots goal save percentage numbers , put stats archive site contact mail want volunteer individual goalie stats wed apr 21 09 09 38 cst 1993 stats include games including sunday previous date listed verified printed newspaper every tuesday n't print shots save percentage numbers , verified stats available mail every weekday sometimes weekends , i'm town get late game results send note would like receive stats mail questions , comments suggestions , let know randy mp minutes played , ga goals , shutouts , gaa goals average w wins , l losses , ties sog shots goal , sv save percentage mp ga gaa w l sog sv tm player 1 0 0 0 00 0 0 0 0 1 000 byron 11 0 0 0 00 0 0 0 3 1 000 har 40 1 0 1 50 0 0 0 19 0 947 mtl frederick 25 1 0 2 40 0 0 0 10 0 900 bos mike bales 116 2 2 50 25 15 7 1287 0 910 tor felix potvin 177 7 2 59 41 18 11 1879 0 906 chi ed belfour 1322 64 1 2 90 9 8 4 596 0 893 bos john blue 996 49 2 2 95 6 7 1 414 0 882 chi jim waite 3702 186 4 3 01 43 14 5 0 902 pit tom barrasso 3890 196 1 3 02 29 28 9 2194 0 911 stl curtis joseph 1817 94 1 3 10 18 8 4 858 0 890 van kay whitmore 1429 75 0 3 15 11 10 4 716 0 895 buf dominik hasek 3194 168 3 3 16 37 14 3 1354 0 876 bos andy moog 1311 70 1 3 20 14 4 1 629 0 889 cal jeff reese 192 2 3 20 31 25 5 1813 0 894 mtl patrick roy 168 9 0 3 21 1 1 1 87 0 897 har mike lenarduzzi 1193 64 0 3 22 13 4 2 522 0 877 det vincent riendeau 96 2 3 23 17 7 4 938 0 898 tor daren puppa 210 4 3 25 34 24 7 1898 0 889 det tim cheveldae 3732 203 2 3 26 29 26 9 0 888 cal mike vernon 146 1 3 30 22 20 2 0 889 nyi glenn healy 185 1 3 30 24 24 6 0 893 buf grant fuhr 152 4 3 31 20 18 7 1519 0 900 nyr john vanbiesbrouck 181 1 3 31 27 23 5 0 882 beaupre 193 3 3 33 26 26 5 1683 0 885 min jon casey 3261 184 3 3 39 28 21 5 0 886 van kirk mclean 151 2 3 39 19 21 3 1322 0 886 nj chris terreri 1433 81 1 3 39 17 5 1 686 0 882 mtl andre racicot 1939 110 0 3 40 18 9 4 947 0 884 que stephane 143 5 3 42 20 17 6 0 892 phi tommy soderstrom 78 0 3 42 13 7 2 691 0 887 pit ken 542 31 0 3 43 5 4 0 225 0 862 bos reggie 172 0 3 45 29 16 5 1525 0 887 que ron hextall 2253 130 0 3 46 17 15 5 1067 0 878 nyi mark fitzpatrick 227 2 3 53 33 26 6 2119 0 893 win bob essensa 96 0 3 60 15 10 2 777 0 876 win jim hrivnak 1596 97 1 3 65 10 12 5 803 0 879 min darcy 97 0 3 66 7 19 2 757 0 872 tb wendell young 1163 71 0 3 66 8 10 1 573 0 876 tb jc bergeron 146 2 3 67 21 16 4 1180 0 876 nj craig billington 1210 74 1 3 67 8 8 2 628 0 882 stl guy hebert 1302 80 2 3 69 8 12 0 664 0 880 rick tabaracci 664 41 0 3 70 5 6 0 344 0 881 buf tom draper 224 14 0 3 75 1 2 1 116 0 879 nyr corey hirsch 1769 111 1 3 76 13 11 5 932 0 881 phi dominic roussel 134 1 3 82 13 19 3 1184 0 887 nyr mike richter 157 10 0 3 82 1 2 0 78 0 872 nyi danny lorenz 240 1 3 84 17 38 6 0 884 edm bill ranford 111 0 3 84 15 8 4 987 0 888 la robb stauber 175 2 3 86 18 21 6 1545 0 887 la kelly hrudey 154 10 0 3 90 0 2 1 66 0 848 que jacques 867 57 0 3 94 5 9 1 499 0 886 har mario gosselin 532 35 0 3 95 6 4 0 294 0 881 la rick knickle 2268 150 1 3 97 8 24 4 1197 0 875 tb pat jablonski 2074 142 1 4 11 7 26 0 1250 0 886 sj arturs irbe 2656 184 0 4 16 16 27 3 0 875 har sean burke 1338 93 0 4 17 9 12 2 763 0 878 edm ron tugnutt 1326 95 0 4 30 2 17 1 743 0 872 ott daniel berthiaume 802 59 0 4 41 3 9 0 405 0 854 phi stephane beauregard 250 0 4 43 8 46 3 0 854 ott peter sidorkiewicz 65 5 0 4 62 0 0 1 39 0 872 cal andrei trefilov 1373 111 0 4 85 4 15 1 784 0 858 har frank pietrangelo 73 6 0 4 93 0 0 1 34 0 824 win mike o'neill 60 5 0 5 00 0 1 0 46 0 891 sj wade flaherty 2000 176 0 5 28 2 30 1 1220 0 856 sj jeff hackett 930 86 0 5 55 2 14 1 559 0 846 sj brian hayward 160 15 0 5 63 0 3 0 91 0 835 tor rick wamsley 20 2 0 6 00 0 0 0 7 0 714 olaf 90 10 0 6 67 0 2 0 44 0 773 ott darrin 249 30 0 7 23 0 5 0 146 0 795 ott steve weeks 98 13 0 7 96 0 2 0 51 0 745 la david 45 7 0 9 33 0 1 0 21 0 667 tb david littman randy coulman , sc aries laboratory research assistant department computational science university saskatchewan coulman cs usask ca saskatoon , sk s7n 0w0 mike machnik machnik blue ctron com nin15b34 merrimack edu cabletron systems , inc 11 13 93
csugrad cs vt edu \( charles atwood \) subject espn bashing ! organization virginia tech computer science dept , blacksburg , va lines 10 nntp posting host csugrad cs vt edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 agree ! ! screw damn contractual agreements ! show exciting hockey game lose fans espn \( one quite \) quickly decisions like 02 chuck espn f ed time atwood csugrad cs vt edu virginia tech computer science department
uxa ecn bgu edu \( \) subject schedule organization educational computing network lines 27 nntp posting host uxa ecn bgu edu article 1993apr20 news columbia edu gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) writes mre teal eng sun com \( mike eisler \) writes gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) writes ca n't believe espn making sportschannel america look good ny , nj , philadelphia , chicago everywhere else , reason sportschannel available local baseball broadcasts yes , point well taken however , even areas finally got games , 's something nagging back skull network national rights pocket says sports news , 's awesome overtime going quebec city , 'll try get update show know 's satellite 's somewhere listen guys talk whole playoffs i'm small town southern illinois school i'm canada know cbc tsn games every night , go bar satellite watched games mon que toronto detroit , mention van vs cbc show goals every game evening n't missed goal playoffs well go boy leafs ciao roger eastern illinois university
drozinst db erau edu \( drozinski tim \) subject ulf organization embry riddle aeronautical university , daytona beach , fl usa lines 48 nntp posting host lambda db erau edu jpc philabs philips com \( john p curcio \) writes article alpha db erau edu drozinst db erau edu \( drozinski tim \) writes ulf \( pgh \) fan , pisses whole adam graves ulf debate ulf plays hard hitting hockey \( nothing wrong \) graves way win game intentionally hurt someone \( bites ! \) jeesus never thought 'd see day defended ranger obviously n't watch much hockey think graves goon one hardest working rangers \( check hardest working ranger \) 36 goals year \( bad checking type player \) , showed every single game season \( unlike stiff messier \) fearless , throws clean checks also stand someone hits , like oaf exactly point 'd watch games closely , 'd see lot goons going ulf one main reasons less physical players pgh left alone ulf plays rough hockey , players putting rush mario jagr want say anyone penguins cheap shot goon , say 's jennings good defenseman favorite players ca n't beat pens even take dives \( like gartner \) try cheap penalties slash lemieux , fine cheap shot exception , rule bet think mike gartner goon time slashed hell oaf 's arm last year , right \? , get suspension hey , 's fine ! player something stupid , penalized including ulf mario \( 're likely see happen \) anyone else matter 's pointless say one person cheap shot goon , 'll see everyone take cheap shot , especially shadowed much ulf jpc john p curcio go bruins ! philips laboratories jpc philabs philips com 345 scarborough road \( 914 \) 945 6442 briarcliff manor , ny 10510 tim drozinski drozinst db erau edu chew electric death , ! spaceman spiff
drozinst db erau edu \( drozinski tim \) subject ulf organization embry riddle aeronautical university , daytona beach , fl usa lines 20 nntp posting host lambda db erau edu william k willis ww1a andrew cmu edu writes richard wernick writes stuff deleted bruins get meet pittsburgh near future , bet neely day sight watching ulf turtle like coward , worth almost much stanley cup stuff deleted much watch follow hockey \? pens bruins division next season , give plenty opportunity whine ulf say , i'm glad satisfied seeing ulf turtle substitute stanley cup , 's close bruins going come stanley cup tim drozinski drozinst db erau edu chew electric death , ! spaceman spiff
farenebt logic camp clarkson edu \( droopy \) subject selfish hockey fans organization clarkson university lines 35 nntp posting host logic clarkson edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 article 1993apr21 staff dccs upenn edu filinuk staff dccs upenn edu \( geoff filinuk \) writes tuesday , raining chicago , espn provided bonus hockey coverage seems though fans ticked ny wash ot replaced angels \? \? game people must realize baseball fans instead hockey fans u baseball game scheduled air advertisers money paid ca n't skip baseball game n't people chill enjoy whatever coverage get well , partly , ardent fan sports , would rather see game 3 nhl playoffs game 3 162 mlb season \( even bb game involves red sox \) espn may contractual obligations understand part 's bit inaccurate call us selfish want watch watch game love , baseball fan , selfish get pissed cbs showing approximately one game per month \? n't think , espn may contractual obligations , , consumers , right voice displeasure serving us 's certainly nothing wrong bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl , ecac boston bruins contact rec sport hockey adirondack red wings , calder cup champs '81 '86 '89 '92 clarkson hockey , ecac tournament champs '66 '91 '93 glens falls high hockey , ny division ii state champs '90 '91 ahl fans join ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu
drozinst db erau edu \( drozinski tim \) subject ulf organization embry riddle aeronautical university , daytona beach , fl usa lines 48 nntp posting host lambda db erau edu joe13 pitt edu \( joseph b stiehm \) writes way , belong nhl cheap shot artists history game , lot players bobby clarke , kenny , pie mckenzie , chris chelios etc nobody right dirty coward ulf violence hockey got players like \( women \) samuelson n't belong players like ulf , 's main purpose injure better players league allowed continue , league wo n't stop , players christian pro 1000 aluminum stick directed ugly head trick nicely bruins get chance meet pittsburgh near future , bet neely day sight watching ulf turtle like coward , worth almost much cup wimp player almost ruined career one best right wingers game remove ulf samuelson lineup , penguins would even notice 's gone 's game hockey rich rich , pull head ass joseph stiehm aluminum stick taken ulf 's head gonna solve problem violence sport hockey hell say guy goon justify , back mentality \? saying hurting player solve anyone 's problems new rules new referee system need instituted right , many real goons get away much , ref watching play \( supposed 've seen van hellemond , name , heads asses calls \) rather keeping eye behind play even linesmen able call penalties , would improvement tim drozinski drozinst db erau edu chew electric death , ! spaceman spiff
andy bgsu edu \( jason \) subject espn thumbs ! ! organization heart black swamp lines 29 article 1993apr20 wkuvx1 bitnet , kozloce wkuvx1 bitnet wrote think proves point caps game goes overtime due contractual obligations switch fucking baseball \( sorry language im pissed ! \) hell going scheduled game went overtime \? espn get head ass know lot hey american hockey fans , hockey fan sympathize feel problem americans n't give shit hockey view bunch canadians bad missing teeth beating shit patch ice warm two thirds us see stuff naturally hand baseball gasp sigh national baseball us supposed forget sport exist april 1 november 1 feel since espn shows 5 baseball games week able show ot hockey game instead opening innings baseball game hell , game going last , miss first 1 1 2 hrs \? indians fan ! show end started , switch ! , i'm hockey fan , know \? baseball mighty sport jason andy bgsu edu go whalers ! pick well !
gibson nukta geop ubc ca \( brad gibson \) subject usenet hockey draft final standings organization dept astronomy univ british columbia lines 41 nntp posting host nukta astro ubc ca article idacom hp com andrew idacom hp com \( andrew scott \) writes final usenet hockey draft congratulations year 's winner , dave wessels victoria , b c , initial 1000 points 1575 9 points ! thanks 262 teams entering biggest usenet hockey draft ever ! hope hear september , 7th annual draft usenet hockey draft standings week 28 posn team total pts cash last posn 1 dave wessels 1575 9 1 9 \( 1 \) 79 brad gibson 1174 2 1147 27 2 \( 79 \) 262 riga 658 0 603 571 6 \( 262 \) interesting note absolutely recollection team picked players 2 weeks start season , never touched roster got wrapped money pool decided get involved usenet pool \( sorry andrew btw \) thing remember team joe sacco maybe john maclean maybe francis kevin stevens well curiousity checked final standings today r h , find amazement absolutely input , initial team still managed ! i'm sure implies finished \) ciao brad gibson brad k gibson internet gibson geop ubc ca dept geophysics astronomy 129 main mall phone \( 604 \) 822 university british columbia fax \( 604 \) 822 vancouver , british columbia , canada v6t 1z4
organization queen 's university kingston andy qucdn queensu ca subject \? octopus lines 17 article lmarsha cms cc wayne edu , lmarsha cms cc wayne edu \( laurie marshall \) says article ebs spk hp com spk hp com \( dennis \) writes door joe louis arena checking fans octopuses \( sp \? \) , allow arena want know people hiding octopuses everytime 've joe checked purse 's place think putting one wings fans know ways sneak octopuses joe \? mean n't strip search cavity checks ! \? fools ! !
scialdone nssdca gsfc nasa gov \( john scialdone \) subject pilon bites ! ! ! ! news software vax vms vnews 1 41 organization nasa goddard space flight center lines 18 isles another defenseman insert line besides pilon \? \? \? , last night 's stupid penalty put isles hole remainder regulation 2 minutes overtime ! ! ! even though isles nearly survived pilon 's blunder regulation , time 5 minute major penalty instead confronting cote came across blueline , pilon backed cote 's nose stick al ca n't serious think pilon guy game line \? \? \? heard scott lachance till later series , must someone else ! ! ! bring back , dave ! ! ! ! lets go islanders john scialdone scialdone nssdca gsfc nasa gov 've gambling , 10 good solid years jg rh
mmb lamar colostate edu \( michael burger \) subject team pool standings nntp posting host lamar acns colostate edu organization colorado state university , fort collins , co 80523 lines 59 k , one series done need post something way , islanders scored rank team name points final 4 1 roland behunin 5 cal 6 que 7 que 7 2 milton keynes kings 0 det 6 pit 5 pit 5 barfly 0 tor 6 bos 7 tor 6 dean 's 0 det 5 pit 5 pit 7 oz 0 lak 6 bos 6 lak 6 garry 0 tor 6 bos 6 bos 4 brian bergman 0 det 6 pit 6 det 6 mopar muscle men 0 chi 5 pit 6 pit 5 bh 's last place picks 0 chi 5 pit 6 pit 5 dave wessels 0 van 7 pit 6 pit 5 sam dogs 0 det 6 pit 5 pit 5 ye ding 0 det 6 pit 5 pit 6 tampere stars 0 chi 6 pit 6 pit 6 mighty 0 chi 6 bos 6 bos 6 homesick hawaiian 0 van 7 pit 6 pit 5 killer kings 0 chi 6 6 chi 6 0 det 5 pit 5 pit 5 ottawa 0 tor 5 pit 6 tor 6 andrew kirk 0 tor 6 pit 6 pit 5 muller n walker 0 det 6 pit 6 pit 6 excalibur 0 det 6 pit 4 pit 6 rednecks hockey hell 0 det 7 bos 5 bos 5 rangers 1940 0 chi 6 pit 7 pit 6 jeff phelps 0 det 6 pit 6 pit 5 arctic circles 0 det 6 pit 6 pit 4 sludge 0 det 6 pit 6 det 6 logistician 0 det 6 pit 6 det 7 hillside raiders 0 chi 6 bos 6 bos 7 danielle 0 chi 5 que 7 que 7 stars 0 chi 6 bos 7 bos 6 0 det 5 pit 5 pit 5 gilles carmel 0 chi 6 pit 7 pit 7 pasi fr nti 0 lak 7 pit 5 pit 6 evan pritchard 0 van 6 pit 6 pit 5 skriko wolves 0 det 7 pit 5 pit 5 rangers blow 0 cal 7 pit 6 pit 4 sean 0 det 5 pit 5 pit 6 schott shooters 0 chi 6 pit 5 pit 5 gary shiff 0 tor 4 pit 6 pit 4 mike burger 0 det 7 pit 6 det 7 darse 0 det 6 pit 6 pit 6 mike burger canada includes , quebec , ontario , mmb lamar colostate edu maritimes , , florida beginning computing ta stud four months year 500 students served royal canadian air farce university michigan 1990 colorado state university 199 \?
musicb mcgill ca subject habs tie series 2 ! ! ! ! ! ! ! lines 26 nntp posting host vm1 mcgill ca organization mcgill university ! habs tied sucker 2 teams head quebec city play game 5 btw , final score habs 3 nords 2 score might bit misleading habs dominated game 5 00 mark first score 8 2 n't miraculous save ron hextall \( bastard ! \) 's reason score close habs winning goal scored benoit brunet 1 07 3rd roy ok game made first save \( one way another \) defense clear rebounds , espn radio reports bruins lost 6 5 ot ! ! ! suckers got deserved life great ! ! ! ! finals would go well ! nick \( 'll take town hat \) czar mainframe computing musicb mcgill ca mcgill university
umturne4 ccu umanitoba ca \( daryl turner \) subject jets canucks jets hold , win 5 4 nntp posting host ccu umanitoba ca organization university manitoba , winnipeg , manitoba , canada lines 38 article news cso uiuc edu epritcha psych uiuc edu \( evan pritchard \) writes also happy good performance played ok vancouver , much better last night , guys going jets yep , though reasons relatively quiet simple last year woofed went 3 1 canucks look got \) way , domi play last night \? n't notice ice domi got tossed 2nd high sticking major playing kris king stu barnes line arguably best first two games glad found places champaign , illinois dishes pick cbc vancouver feed i'm also glad found hockey fans , jets canucks fans , watch game definitely good thing every little cheer helps , evan \) good thing net n't need voice operate wo n't one sunday night get home , hope white noise come ! \) one thing , say though vancouver keep steve john garrett broadcast team two bad , especially spoiled \( least four five times , steve called barnes selanne whoops ! \) daryl turner r h contact winnipeg jets internet umturne4 ccu umanitoba ca fidonet 1 348 701 1 348 4 \( please route 348 700 \) tkachuk zhamnov , sel nne , shoots , scores ! jets win cup ! jets win cup ! essensa vezina ! housley norris ! sel nne calder !
vzhivov superior carleton ca \( vladimir zhivov \) subject sabres ! ! ! sweep organization carleton university lines 18 's sabres came back beat bruins ot 6 5 tonight sweep series beautiful goal brad may \( lafontaine set lying ice \) ended fuhr left game game injured shoulder lafontaine well however , sabres get week 's rest injuries problem montreal edged quebec 3 2 square series , seems headed game 7 habs dominated first two periods unlucky 2 2 tie 40 minutes however , early goal brunet 3rd islanders 3rd ot game series goal ray ferraro 4 3 caps simply collapsed taking 3 0 lead 2nd time playoff ot record 28 7 vlad impaler
vm cmp ilstu edu subject think espn shafted \? organization illinois state university lines 16 like many others watching caps isles game went baseball game pissed could interupt important game understand contracts , would think would clause contract concerning important games ! anyway , us blues \( hawks \) fans got shafted worse ! everyone u watched game abc however us live central illinois area subjected watching \( \? \) area affected telecast get see game except hawk vision game , televised , would first home hawks game shown area since 1980 television bull got stop deprived seeing games , due ticket prices , also deprived watching tv peace , hammer
vm cmp ilstu edu subject pierre turgeon stud ! organization illinois state university lines 11 blues fan n't get see much else around league exception hockey night espn ca n't get blues games go school , thus n't get see whole lot teams play except hawks last night got catch glimpse caps isles game occurred turgeon stud skates moves quick brilliant ny fans proud p game \( caps isles \) \? peace , hammer
byron u washington edu \( joseph \) subject great comeback sabres , changing goalie ! organization university washington , seattle lines 7 distribution na reply u washington edu nntp posting host byron u washington edu sabres finished great four wins boston sabres players contribute great wins talent players including , fuhr , impressed skills showed art sport , like garbage speech coach 's corner go ! make popular , make exciting less violent !
jwodzia fadel uucp \( john wodziak \) subject ranger fans \? \? \? \? \? reply jwodzia fadel uucp \( john wodziak \) organization clemson university engineering department lines 63 kkeller mail sas upenn edu \( keith keller \) writes kwolfer eagle wesleyan edu writes reading hockey news n't see many ranger fans writing 're , talking hockey n't go away like team 's fans rangers bite big one yeah think 're used \( even us change sigs root second favorite teams \) i'm new system big hockey fan long suffering \( 1940 \) ranger fan remember suffering builds character ! ! n't care ! want f cking stanley cup ! ! ! ! ! die ! aargh ! ! ! 'll happy win get school \( way 's going may saying piled higher deeper long \) ranger fans may suffering 're loyal , unlike islander fans show team wins observed many times 's true , definitely feeling alot people may like statement far worst band wagon fans pit fans \( least present \) case point know guy came hockey hell \( tm \) pitt u 'bout pens \? 're f ing awesome yeah beating devils n't mean alot wait meet boston detroit playoffs start playoffs start \? uhhhh started week ago i'm saying true fans seems alot floating around really know nothing hockey except 're newly beloved best team game right 're best team fans disappear woodwork john flames dev null serious comments welcomed eat rich far stanley cup goes think 's one team test pittsburgh 's detroit would entertaining hard fought series mario amazing ! keith keller let's go rangers ! ! ! ! ! let's go quakers ! ! ! ! ! kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs ! ! ! ! cow vegetarian dish keith keller , 1993 hockey hell jwodzia eng clemson edu john r wodziak real black gold 7 alan kulwicki 1954 1993 space triumph polish yankee mechanical engineer , crown 1992 winston cup champion great person rent !
jwodzia fadel uucp \( john wodziak \) subject bruins fans \? \? \? reply jwodzia fadel uucp \( john wodziak \) organization clemson university engineering department lines 24 robbie po rap115 psuvm psu edu writes i'm wondering bruins fans \? \? \? mean woofed 1 , 000 , 000 posts regular season saying team going kick everyone 's playoffs win stanley cup see nothing wrong little ranting raving , i'm curious boston faithful stopped posting mean n't even see one little boston fan post , 'cept bruins fans n't cocky well , maybe 're golf course something , n't know , 'd sure like see bruins fans \) still little beer 're busy post \) seriously think caught sig curse nelson \) first rangers 50 b 's hmmm bout dem whalers \? \( offense steveg others \) hockey hell jwodzia eng clemson edu john r wodziak real black gold 7 alan kulwicki 1954 1993 space triumph polish yankee mechanical engineer , crown 1992 winston cup champion great person rent !
njs lahabra chevron com \( n j \) subject espn reply njs chevron com organization chevron , la habra , ca lines 18 article 1993apr21 virginia edu , mjr4u virginia edu \( matthew j rush \) writes actually , angry went away pens game pens fan central virginia kinda tough get see espn , play caps , cause 're close enough dc get caps games , espn switched caps , ! matt nearly angry set vcr yesterday get home find bruins vs buffalo 's get reading tv section sports section game aired nancy j , division n't know fact p chevron petroleum technology co g elvis working shop e p box 446 , la habra , ca beaver falls , 'd swear n tel \( 310 \) 694 njs chevron com driving truck scotty baldwin
nhmas gauss med harvard edu \( mark shneyder 432 4219 \) subject radio stations organization hms lines 15 nntp posting host gauss med harvard edu add boston 's flagship station probably wo n't pick anywhere outside boston since 's 5 , 000 watt station bruins also network stations 6 new england states could last year also happens sports radio station problem bruins happy moved different station \( \) whenever night conflict nba 's boston celtics happened 28 times course regular season \( celtics financially troubled \) bruins might 850 next year stay tuned ppv mark
steven kipling freddy ersys edmonton ab ca \( steven kipling \) subject 77 's \? reply steven kipling freddy ersys edmonton ab ca \( steven kipling \) distribution world organization freddy 's place bbs edmonton , ab 403 456 4241 lines 27 quoting logistician tl need players wearing 77 nhl know tl one , ray borque bruins help would greatly tl appreciated tl thanx hi logistician , paul coffey wearing 77 detroit red wings \? one \( besides borque \) think hope helps steve warning ! removal tagline prohibited law ! blue wave qwk v2 12
steven kipling freddy ersys edmonton ab ca \( steven kipling \) subject espn reply steven kipling freddy ersys edmonton ab ca \( steven kipling \) distribution world organization freddy 's place bbs edmonton , ab 403 456 4241 lines 31 quoting cire trehguad cyt hey iowa mind espn showing pitt njd games cyt least get see devils even ass cyt kicked perhaps score even win game two cyt go devils sorry tell , n't think devils win game pittsburg , penguins many scoring threats shut one another kill 's bad must conclude penguins win third stanley cup row hope someone beat , cannot see happening e v e backup found \( \) bort \( r \) etry \( p \) blue wave qwk v2 12
steven kipling freddy ersys edmonton ab ca \( steven kipling \) subject hey , teh c reply steven kipling freddy ersys edmonton ab ca \( steven kipling \) distribution world organization freddy 's place bbs edmonton , ab 403 456 4241 lines 34 quoting greg rogers gr hi , gr due living bay area , unable see vancouver 's victory gr jets last night know score , rarely describes gr game could someone please post brief \( sp \? \) gr happened well team play \? cannucks deserving gr victory \? gr also , could kind soul please email end season , gr individual player stats \? gr greg gr vancouver cup \( virtual reality \) sorry tell greg , reality , cannot see vancouver winning cup good chance come smythe division , chance make finals , one capable year beating penguins , many scoring threats would love proven wrong , must conclude pens win cup 3 year steve rotten way spend 7th life blue wave qwk v2 12
steven kipling freddy ersys edmonton ab ca \( steven kipling \) subject test please ignore reply steven kipling freddy ersys edmonton ab ca \( steven kipling \) distribution world organization freddy 's place bbs edmonton , ab 403 456 4241 lines 36 quoting ohandley betsy gsfc nasa oh ohandley betsy gsfc nasa gov oh newsgroups rec sport hockey oh subject test please ignore oh message id 1993apr21 betsy gsfc nasa gov oh date wed , 21 apr 1993 22 07 41 gmt oh reply ohandley betsy gsfc nasa gov oh test please ignore oh oh oh oh ok ignore message since test wow , montreal scored go 1 0 game 4 series , oh sorry supposed ignore message n't bye steve dont dare read tagline ! ! ! ! ! ! ! blue wave qwk v2 12
utarlg uta edu \( george smiley \) subject espn really sucks big time news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host utarlg uta edu organization university texas arlington lines 24 cdash moet cs colorado edu \( charles shub \) writes us hockey automobile racing fans know exactly stand espn delays martinsville race day nfl draft espn shows baseball instead overtime nhl playoff game gimme break , guys really kept switching back forth baseball hockey stated could n't show overtime period turned back espn around 11 hockey great , pulled chair watched , first overtime period ended went back baseball coming back hockey something like 30 minutes later trying hockey baseball viewers time martinsville , wonder even bothered sign secret coincided draft let tnn broadcast \? george charlie shub cdash cs colorado edu
chuq apple com \( chuq von rospach \) subject sharks review part 5 left wings organization go sharks , go giants , inc lines 35 nntp posting host apple com paul data io com \( paul brownlow \) writes wood played junior career seattle one leading scorers mediocre team traded away 1992 rarely lost fight one toughest players whl wood fairly small enforcer type mean , fleury pretty good job n't large , dody fleury witness three four fights closeup , simply n't ready fight nhl level \( assuming 's role , really showed us games k c pass , shoot skate , never saw much \) right fist , n't bad , nhl level , players smart enough grab thing land anything significant control hand , 's fish beach player anything wants entire strategy seemed keep hand reach found opening never saw find opening worth talking got quickly , couple times unless shows new tricks camp , 'll career minor list since first taste nhl , expect sharks gave 'd know 'd work season needs get stronger , needs get speed needs show something else simply , n't particularly good goon chuq imho von rospach , esd support training \( dal aux \) chuq apple com member , sfwa editor , otherrealms genie mac bigot alink chuq minor league fans minors request medraut apple com \( san jose giants 1 9 \) san francisco giants fans giants request medraut apple com \( stick \? ! \) san jose sharks fans sharks request medraut apple com \( new seat 127 tbd \)
emory edu \( joshua \) subject islanders win third ot organization emory university , atlanta , ga lines 10 x newsreader tin 1 1 pl3 n't know scored , isles \( 28 7 franchise record playoff ot games \) took game four score 4 3 third consecutive ot win capitals tonight uniondale know , please post scored isles fan living atlanta hockey hell lord stan 's uniondale man ! go isles !
messi uku fi \( jarkko \) subject wc finland organization university kuopio , finland lines 8 disaster ! finland beaten czech 1 3 \( 0 0 , 1 1 , 0 2 \) finland 4th pool b certainly meet canada quarter final wednesday 28th lack scoring skills major problem team finland throughout tournament briza \( goalie \) mvp czech team tikkanen mvp finnish team jarkko 14
messi uku fi \( mikko \) subject wc finland organization university kuopio , finland lines 32 messi uku fi \( jarkko \) writes disaster ! finland beaten czech 1 3 \( 0 0 , 1 1 , 0 2 \) finland 4th pool b certainly meet canada quarter final wednesday 28th lack scoring skills major problem team finland throughout tournament briza \( goalie \) mvp czech team tikkanen mvp finnish team four five games finns played , goalie chosen best player opposing team \( fifth , finnish goalie , ketterer elected best finn \) goalies good days games , finnish players lousy scorers \? \? \? anyway , quite goals scored games generally \( exception course canada vs italy \) looks like goalies getting good due equipment getting bigger , cover \( gloves , e g seem much bigger years ago \) anybody know rules goalie equipment changed way \? \? \? \? mikko jarkko 14 nyt mm nen kai nyt pari
maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) subject stan fischler , 4 24 organization dept computer science , laurentian university , sudbury , lines 32 1993apr25 alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) writes wayne made bed choosing mcnall sather hockey destiny sleep instead whining ego got absolute nonsense decision made pocklington 's chose 20 mill gretzky gretzky n't upset able win cup la submit n't worth 20 mill best thought supporting cast edmonton n't matter show know thinks \( thought \) \? thought see revealed n't like gretzky big deal , complaint lemieux dives much last year patrick convinced twice accept bowman hockey destiny , rather ego real purpose diving merely attempt draw penalty player trying make checkers keep distance ref wo n't fooled ca n't imagine anyone would expect someone like lemieux change game n't pick 1 dimensional rated type like hull salami cordially , always , maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca many morons rm little time
farenebt logic camp clarkson edu \( droopy \) subject ahl playoff results organization clarkson university lines 25 nntp posting host logic clarkson edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 ahl playoff scores first round \( home team caps \) games played , 4 20 rochester 6 utica 4 fredericton cape breton series \( plural status \? \) adirondack leads cdi , 3 0 providence tied w springfield , 2 2 binghamton tied w baltimore , 1 1 rochester leads utica , 2 1 st john 's leads moncton , 2 0 cape breton tied w fredericton , 1 1 bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl , ecac boston bruins contact rec sport hockey adirondack red wings , calder cup champs '81 '86 '89 '92 clarkson hockey , ecac tournament champs '66 '91 '93 glens falls high hockey , ny division ii state champs '90 '91 ahl fans join ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu
fmsalvat eos ncsu edu \( frank michae salvatore \) subject nc caps isles fans originator fmsalvat 106ps eos ncsu edu reply fmsalvat eos ncsu edu \( frank michae salvatore \) organization north carolina state university , project eos lines 13 caps isles fans , anyone interested catching games coliseum \( hopefully another \) catch game north carolina 's original sports bar chapel hill i'm pretty sure carry hts well three games time last night place know catch stanley cup action frank salvatore fmsalvat eos ncsu edu
mamatha devineni ratnam mr47 andrew cmu edu subject pens fans reactions organization post office , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 12 nntp posting host po4 andrew cmu edu sure bashers pens fans pretty confused lack kind posts recent pens massacre devils actually , bit puzzled bit relieved however , going put end non relief bit praise pens man , killing devils worse thought jagr showed much better regular season stats also lot fo fun watch playoffs bowman let jagr lot fun next couple games since pens going beat pulp jersey anyway disappointed see islanders lose final regular season game pens rule ! ! !
andrew idacom hp com \( andrew scott \) subject usenet playoff pool game 2 standings organization idacom , division hewlett packard lines 222 standings game 2 divisional semi final series andrew usenet hockey playoff draft standings posn team pts rem last posn 1 scorers 77 25 \( 1 \) 2 arctic circles 75 25 \( 75 \) northern lights 75 25 \( 33 \) 75 25 \( 19 \) 5 fighting amish 74 25 \( 161 \) team elvis 74 25 \( 11 \) 7 chris roney 73 25 \( 33 \) myers marauders 73 25 \( \) dead ducks 73 25 \( 11 \) 10 les 72 25 \( \) sludge 72 25 \( 75 \) paige faults 72 25 \( 33 \) sam dogs 72 25 \( 33 \) borg 72 25 \( 2 \) hurricane andrew 72 25 \( 4 \) 's lakers 72 25 \( 102 \) einstien 's punk band 72 25 \( 9 \) 18 homesick hawaiian 71 25 \( 4 \) test department 71 25 \( 11 \) samuel lau \( calgary , alberta \) 71 25 \( 127 \) mopar muscle men 71 25 \( 33 \) jerky boys 71 24 \( 4 \) gb flyers 71 25 \( 19 \) 24 neural netters 70 25 \( 102 \) give money monday 70 25 \( 9 \) bill 70 25 \( \) 70 25 \( 33 \) detroit 70 25 \( 11 \) bloom county stars 70 25 \( 54 \) 70 25 \( 75 \) 31 great expectations 69 25 \( 4 \) purdue ricks pens 69 25 \( 19 \) 33 frank 's little 68 25 \( 33 \) jan stein 68 25 \( 33 \) allez les blues 68 25 \( \) goaldingers 68 25 \( 75 \) 68 25 \( 19 \) weenies 68 25 \( 33 \) p bury 68 25 \( 19 \) bruce 's rented mules 68 25 \( 4 \) 41 mind 67 25 \( 33 \) mike burger 67 25 \( 11 \) go flames 67 25 \( \) garryola 67 25 \( 33 \) 67 25 \( 75 \) lippe 67 25 \( 102 \) senators 67 25 \( 19 \) big bay bombers 67 25 \( 102 \) milton keynes kings 67 25 \( 33 \) 50 seppo kemppainen 66 25 \( 19 \) freddy beach rockets 66 25 \( \) campi machine 66 25 \( 19 \) j 's 66 25 \( 75 \) sean forbes 66 25 \( 19 \) tapio repo 66 25 \( 11 \) zachmans wingers 66 25 \( 19 \) zipper heads 66 25 \( 11 \) canadian 66 25 \( 75 \) 59 teem kanada 65 25 \( 33 \) new zealand leafs 65 25 \( 54 \) tiger chung 65 25 \( 54 \) rangers destiny 65 25 \( 33 \) make beliefs 65 25 \( 54 \) dave wessels 65 25 \( 2 \) norway 65 25 \( 54 \) 66 force 25 64 25 \( 75 \) trevor 's triumph 64 25 \( 75 \) commitments 64 25 \( 141 \) skate die 64 25 \( 19 \) dog 's hog 's 64 25 \( 33 \) delaware destroyers 64 25 \( 33 \) craig team 64 25 \( 11 \) rangers blow 64 25 \( 54 \) debbie bowles 64 25 \( 19 \) mak paranjape 64 25 \( 141 \) comfortably numb 64 25 \( 127 \) loaded weapons 64 25 \( 54 \) rob del 64 25 \( 54 \) robarts research rebels 64 25 \( 54 \) fuzzfaces 64 25 \( 19 \) houdini 's magicians 64 25 \( 54 \) la coupe stainless 64 25 \( 141 \) 83 cluster buster 63 25 \( 33 \) lets go 63 25 \( 102 \) shooters 63 25 \( 141 \) superstars 63 25 \( 102 \) fans oulu 63 25 \( 127 \) habs playing golf 63 25 \( 75 \) chris stevens 63 25 \( \) thin ice 63 25 \( 102 \) brothers 63 25 \( 33 \) jason team 63 25 \( 102 \) smithw 63 25 \( 102 \) 94 anson mak 62 25 \( 173 \) skriko wolves 62 25 \( 102 \) kane 's men 62 25 \( 75 \) danielle leblanc 62 25 \( 127 \) team awesome 62 25 \( 19 \) weasels 62 25 \( 141 \) alf 's stars 62 25 \( 75 \) 62 25 \( 75 \) kramer george jerry 62 25 \( 75 \) rev 's rebels 62 25 \( 75 \) yan loke 62 25 \( 75 \) lamp lighters 62 25 \( 102 \) littlest giants 62 25 \( 75 \) mr 62 25 \( 75 \) 108 61 25 \( 161 \) great scott 61 25 \( 141 \) bobby fan club 61 25 \( 127 \) 61 25 \( 102 \) hat trick mike 61 25 \( \) promise land 61 25 \( 33 \) daves knee jerk picks 61 25 \( 102 \) doug bowles 61 25 \( 102 \) 61 25 \( 54 \) lemon pepper grizzly bears 61 25 \( 54 \) flying pigs 61 25 \( 127 \) les 61 25 \( 102 \) 61 25 \( 102 \) gilles carmel 61 25 \( 102 \) 122 bets 60 25 \( 127 \) timo ojala 60 25 \( 127 \) rednecks hockey hell 60 25 \( 33 \) gee man 60 25 \( 127 \) frack attack 60 25 \( 54 \) triple x 60 25 \( 127 \) ulfie 's 16 brothers 60 25 \( \) buffalo soldiers 60 25 \( 54 \) 60 25 \( 102 \) ottawa 60 25 \( 127 \) 60 25 \( 141 \) monica loke 60 25 \( 102 \) lance hill boston bruins fa 60 25 \( 33 \) 135 mann mariners 59 24 \( 141 \) new jersey rob 59 25 \( 102 \) 59 25 \( 141 \) doug 59 25 \( 102 \) muller n walker 59 25 \( 54 \) high stickers 59 25 \( 141 \) 59 25 \( 161 \) beer makes expert 59 25 \( 75 \) gail 59 25 \( 127 \) dean martin 59 25 \( 161 \) 145 58 25 \( 127 \) brians 58 25 \( 75 \) van isle colonists 58 25 \( 141 \) charlie cook 58 25 \( \) 58 25 \( 54 \) schott shooters 58 25 \( 102 \) bjoern leaguen 58 25 \( 75 \) 58 25 \( 141 \) lord stanley 's 58 25 \( 141 \) wait theres 58 25 \( 127 \) stacey ross 58 25 \( 141 \) 156 heikki 57 25 \( 54 \) ice 57 25 \( 75 \) chapman chaps 57 25 \( 161 \) rangers 1940 57 25 \( 54 \) underwriters 57 25 \( 54 \) beam team 57 25 \( 176 \) dave 57 25 \( 75 \) canuck force 57 25 \( 176 \) evan pritchard 57 25 \( 161 \) controversy warriors 57 25 \( 54 \) dream team 57 25 \( 141 \) 167 san jose mahi mahi 56 25 \( 141 \) go go 56 25 \( 161 \) goddess fermentation 56 25 \( 54 \) bure 's blur 56 25 \( 141 \) louisiana psycho killers 56 25 \( 141 \) east city jokers 56 25 \( 102 \) tampere salami 56 25 \( 176 \) head 56 25 \( 102 \) grant marven 56 25 \( 75 \) mark steve dreaming 56 25 \( 75 \) pens dynasty 56 25 \( 161 \) 178 chip n dale 55 25 \( 189 \) 179 cherry bombers 54 25 \( 161 \) brian bergman 54 25 \( 189 \) 54 25 \( 75 \) oz 54 25 \( 141 \) arm hammer 54 25 \( 161 \) goons 54 25 \( 176 \) daryl turner 54 25 \( 102 \) 186 e 53 25 \( 141 \) 53 25 \( 75 \) 53 25 \( 161 \) chapman sticks 53 25 \( 176 \) hillside raiders 53 25 \( 185 \) knights power play 53 25 \( 173 \) 192 elephants 52 25 \( 185 \) sparky 's select 52 25 \( 176 \) 's 52 25 \( 173 \) butt ends 52 25 \( 176 \) 196 lisa 's 51 25 \( 197 \) stars 51 25 \( 161 \) 198 ken de 49 25 \( 176 \) 199 gary shiff 48 25 \( \) 200 47 25 \( 176 \) 201 nords 45 25 \( 192 \) jane 's world 45 25 \( 185 \) required 45 25 \( 189 \) martin 's gag 45 25 \( 194 \) 205 du 44 25 \( 196 \) 206 arsenal maple leafs 41 18 \( 194 \) 41 25 \( 185 \) 208 killer kings 38 25 \( 192 \) andrew scott andrew idacom hp com hp idacom telecom operation \( 403 \) 462 0666 ext 253 roman era , 28 considered old
gtd597a prism gatech edu \( hrivnak \) subject goalie mask poll update 4 22 93 summary keep sending votes ! ! ! organization georgia institute technology lines 38 curtis joseph ray leblanc made big moves poll recently hextall shown strong movement well kirk mclean tom barrasso \( ca n't see \) added list recently keep sending votes current votes favorite goalie masks \( 3pts 1st , 2nd , 3rd \) player team pts votes 1 ed belfour chicago 32 15 curtis joseph st louis 32 13 3 andy moog boston 30 13 4 brian hayward san jose 26 10 5 ron hextall quebec 16 8 6 grant fuhr buffalo 12 5 7 gerry cheevers boston \( retired \) 11 6 8 john ny rangers 10 4 9 ray leblanc usa olympic 7 3 10 mike richter ny rangers 6 3 11 manon rheaume atlanta \( ihl \) 5 2 12 beaupre washington 4 2 ken dryden montreal \( retired \) 4 2 others receiving less mike vernon \( cal \) , clint malarchuk \( buf sd , ihl \) , tommy soderstrom \( phil \) , tom barrasso \( pit \) , irbe \( sj \) , tim cheveldae \( det \) , sean burke \( nj \) , rick wamsley \( tor , ret \) , jon casey \( minn \) , bob essensa \( win \) , glenn healy \( nyi \) , tony \( chi \) , gilles \( bos \) , rod stauber \( la \) , \( mtl nyr \) , pat jablonski \( tb \) , grant fuhr \( tor \) , felix potvin \( tor \) , stephane beauregard \( win \) , mark fitzpatrick \( nyi \) , chico \( nyi \) , kirk mclean \( van \) go skins ! next question emotional music quite go braves ! effect \? mike patton , faith go hornets ! go capitals ! mike friedman \( hrivnak fan ! \) internet gtd597a prism gatech edu
etxonss ufsa ericsson se \( staffan axelsson \) subject wc 93 scores standings , april 25 nntp posting host uipc104 ericsson se organization ericsson telecom , stockholm , sweden lines 72 1993 world championships germany group standings \( munich \) group b standings \( dortmund \) gp w l gf ga p gp w l gf ga p canada 5 5 0 0 31 4 27 10 czech republic 5 4 1 0 17 4 13 9 sweden 5 3 0 2 17 14 3 6 germany 5 4 0 1 20 12 8 8 russia 5 2 1 2 15 12 3 5 usa 5 2 2 1 14 10 4 6 switzerland 5 2 0 3 11 14 3 4 finland 5 2 1 2 7 7 0 5 italy 4 1 1 2 7 19 12 3 norway 4 0 0 4 1 13 12 0 austria 4 0 0 4 3 21 18 0 france 4 0 0 4 6 19 13 0 april 18 italy russia 2 2 norway germany 0 6 sweden austria 1 0 usa czech republic 1 1 april 19 canada switzerland 2 0 russia austria 4 2 finland france 2 0 april 20 sweden canada 1 4 czech republic germany 5 0 switzerland italy 0 1 finland usa 1 1 april 21 germany france 5 3 italy sweden 2 6 czech republic norway 2 0 april 22 switzerland russia 0 6 usa france 6 1 austria canada 0 11 norway finland 0 2 april 23 switzerland austria 5 1 germany finland 3 1 april 24 russia sweden 2 5 czech republic france 6 2 canada italy 11 2 usa norway 3 1 april 25 sweden switzerland 4 6 finland czech republic 1 3 russia canada 1 3 germany usa 6 3 april 26 austria italy france norway 20 00 playoffs april 27 quarterfinals sweden usa 15 30 russia germany 20 00 april 28 quarterfinals canada finland 15 30 italy switzerland czech republic 20 00 april 29 relegation 5 b 6 15 30 6 b 5 20 00 april 30 semifinals 1 b 4 3 b 2 15 30 4 b 1 2 b 3 20 00 may 1 relegation 14 30 bronze medal game 19 00 may 2 final 15 00 \( \( staffan axelsson etxonss ufsa ericsson se \) \) r h contact swedish hockey
ac dal ca subject lemieux 's getting hart jeez hope ! organization dalhousie university , halifax , nova scotia , canada lines 21 article 22apr93 02956996 0062 unbvm1 csd unb ca , patrick walker f1hh unb ca writes way , canadian , play little , watched hockey night canada , \( never missed show ! \) well 's really great pat guess since 've played little thereby qualify expert especially since watch games v qualifies armchair quarterback coach potato condone violence , 'll make exception mario pat walker evidence kind expert truly stupid statement mario definately one best players play game i'm saying best ever play game , come mind question asked let 's face , returns radiation therapy around dozen games left , lafontaine scoring lead ! ! ! ! , guess got lucky speaking lafontaine , 's guy considered hart trophy well , certainly one better players league year
jca2 cec1 wustl edu \( joseph charles achkar \) subject playoffs stats sunday 4 25 nntp posting host cec1 organization washington university , st louis mo lines 129 stanley cup playoff stats games played sunday , april 25 1993 top 20 point scorers rnk pts g pg sg gw en pim cty tm ps player 1 9 0 9 0 0 0 0 4 bos c 12 adam oates 2 8 5 3 4 0 2 0 0 usa stl rw 16 brett hull 3 7 6 1 2 0 0 0 6 rus buf rw 89 alexander mogilny 3 7 4 3 1 1 0 0 4 pit c 66 mario lemieux 3 7 3 4 2 1 0 0 19 cal rw 14 theoren fleury 3 7 2 5 1 0 0 0 12 tor c 93 doug gilmour 3 7 1 6 0 0 0 0 0 det 77 paul coffey 3 7 1 6 0 0 0 0 0 usa buf c 16 pat lafontaine 9 6 4 2 0 0 2 0 4 nyi c 20 ray ferraro 9 6 3 3 0 0 1 0 2 rus van rw 10 pavel bure 9 6 3 3 1 0 1 0 0 rus buf lw 13 yuri khmylev 9 6 3 3 1 0 1 0 6 van rw 16 trevor linden 9 6 2 4 1 0 0 0 2 buf c 10 dale hawerchuk 9 6 2 4 1 0 2 0 0 usa stl c 15 craig janney 9 6 2 4 2 0 0 0 6 bos c 49 joe juneau 9 6 2 4 0 0 0 1 6 cal c 25 joe nieuwendyk 9 6 1 5 0 0 0 0 4 stl 21 jeff brown 9 6 1 5 0 0 1 0 4 pit c 10 ron francis top 10 goal scorers rnk pts g pg sg gw en pim cty tm ps player 1 7 6 1 2 0 0 0 6 rus buf rw 89 alexander mogilny 2 8 5 3 4 0 2 0 0 usa stl rw 16 brett hull 2 5 5 0 3 0 1 0 14 c 32 dale hunter 4 7 4 3 1 1 0 0 4 pit c 66 mario lemieux 4 6 4 2 0 0 2 0 4 nyi c 20 ray ferraro 4 5 4 1 0 0 1 0 6 tor lw 14 dave andreychuk 4 5 4 1 1 0 0 0 4 bos rw 8 cam neely 4 4 4 0 2 0 0 0 2 usa la c 12 jimmy carson 4 4 4 0 0 0 2 0 0 usa que rw 48 scott young top 10 assist scorers rnk pts g pg sg gw en pim cty tm ps player 1 9 0 9 0 0 0 0 4 bos c 12 adam oates 2 7 1 6 0 0 0 0 0 det 77 paul coffey 2 7 1 6 0 0 0 0 0 usa buf c 16 pat lafontaine 4 7 2 5 1 0 0 0 12 tor c 93 doug gilmour 4 6 1 5 0 0 0 0 4 stl 21 jeff brown 4 6 1 5 0 0 1 0 4 pit c 10 ron francis 4 5 0 5 0 0 0 0 0 usa win 6 phil housley 4 5 0 5 0 0 0 0 4 swe 6 calle johansson 4 5 0 5 0 0 0 0 8 cal 2 al macinnis top 10 power play goal scorers rnk pts g pg sg gw en pim cty tm ps player 1 8 5 3 4 0 2 0 0 usa stl rw 16 brett hull 2 5 5 0 3 0 1 0 14 c 32 dale hunter 3 7 3 4 2 1 0 0 19 cal rw 14 theoren fleury 3 7 6 1 2 0 0 0 6 rus buf rw 89 alexander mogilny 3 6 2 4 2 0 0 0 6 bos c 49 joe juneau 3 5 2 3 2 0 0 0 6 stl lw 19 brendan shanahan 3 4 4 0 2 0 0 0 2 usa la c 12 jimmy carson 3 4 2 2 2 0 0 0 2 tch cal c 26 robert reichel 3 4 3 1 2 0 1 0 2 fin win rw 13 teemu selanne 3 3 2 1 2 0 1 0 6 mon lw 25 vincent damphousse short handed goal scorers rnk pts g pg sg gw en pim cty tm ps player 1 7 3 4 2 1 0 0 19 cal rw 14 theoren fleury 1 7 4 3 1 1 0 0 4 pit c 66 mario lemieux 1 4 3 1 0 1 1 0 4 usa cal c 29 joel otto 1 4 2 2 0 1 0 0 6 usa cal 20 gary suter 1 3 2 1 1 1 0 0 23 rus det c 91 sergei fedorov 1 2 1 1 0 1 0 0 10 bos c 19 dave poulin 1 1 1 0 0 1 0 0 4 win c 38 luciano borsato 1 1 1 0 0 1 0 0 2 det lw 11 shawn burr 1 1 1 0 0 1 0 0 2 stl lw 10 dave lowry 1 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 usa buf rw 18 wayne presley top 10 game winning goal scorers rnk pts g pg sg gw en pim cty tm ps player 1 8 5 3 4 0 2 0 0 usa stl rw 16 brett hull 1 6 4 2 0 0 2 0 4 nyi c 20 ray ferraro 1 6 2 4 1 0 2 0 0 usa stl c 15 craig janney 1 4 4 0 0 0 2 0 0 usa que rw 48 scott young 5 6 3 3 0 0 1 0 2 rus van rw 10 pavel bure 5 6 1 5 0 0 1 0 4 pit c 10 ron francis 5 6 3 3 1 0 1 0 0 rus buf lw 13 yuri khmylev 5 6 3 3 1 0 1 0 6 van rw 16 trevor linden 5 5 4 1 0 0 1 0 6 tor lw 14 dave andreychuk 5 5 5 0 3 0 1 0 14 c 32 dale hunter top 5 point scoring defensemen rnk pts g pg sg gw en pim cty tm ps player 3 7 1 6 0 0 0 0 0 det 77 paul coffey 9 6 1 5 0 0 0 0 4 stl 21 jeff brown 19 5 0 5 0 0 0 0 0 usa win 6 phil housley 19 5 0 5 0 0 0 0 4 swe 6 calle johansson 19 5 0 5 0 0 0 0 8 cal 2 al macinnis top 4 rookie point scorers rnk pts g pg sg gw en pim cty tm ps player 9 6 2 4 2 0 0 0 6 bos c 49 joe juneau 33 4 3 1 0 0 1 0 8 usa pit c 15 shawn mceachern 33 4 3 1 2 0 1 0 2 fin win rw 13 teemu selanne 33 4 0 4 0 0 0 0 2 tch buf 42 richard smehlik top 5 penalty minute leaders rnk pts g pg sg gw en pim cty tm ps player 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 26 det lw 55 keith primeau 2 3 2 1 1 1 0 0 23 rus det c 91 sergei fedorov 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 22 nyi 47 richard pilon 4 2 1 1 0 0 0 0 21 tor rw 12 rob pearson 4 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 21 win rw 20 tie domi \) l l e z l e b l u e ! ! ! joe ashkar contact blues saint louis jca2 cec1 wustl edu \( \) blues
hunter uoknor edu \( steve hunter \) subject minnesota shame \? originator news ecn uoknor edu nntp posting host ecn uoknor edu organization national severe storms laboratory lines 22 i'm hockey fan way back , maintain interest best hockey hinterlands \( oklahoma \) i'm hoping get reading move north stars dallas 've impression minnesota one , possibly , hockey state u team moving city texas \? owner greedy , self serving , stars really making profit \? city whoever owned arena price \? much 'd like see nhl 3 hour drive , ca n't help feel people minnesota , unless truly n't support team opinions , please steve hunter national weather service radar group norman , ok
jca2 cec1 wustl edu \( joseph charles achkar \) subject blues playoff stats first round keywords blues , hull , janney , shanahan , joseph nntp posting host cec1 organization washington university , st louis mo lines 63 blues playoff scoring end norris semifinals ps name gp g pts pim pp sh gw en rw 16 brett hull 4 5 3 8 2 0 4 0 2 0 c 15 craig janney 4 2 4 6 1 0 1 0 2 0 21 jeff brown 4 1 5 6 1 4 0 0 0 0 lw 19 brendan shanahan 4 2 3 5 0 6 2 0 0 0 c 7 nelson emerson 4 1 2 3 1 2 0 0 0 0 rw 9 denny felsner 4 1 1 2 2 2 0 0 0 0 lw 10 dave lowry 4 1 0 1 2 2 0 1 0 0 lw 17 basil mcrae 4 0 1 1 1 2 0 0 0 0 lw 14 kevin miller 4 0 1 1 1 2 0 0 0 0 rw 23 rich sutter 4 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 c 28 bob bassen 4 0 0 0 1 6 0 0 0 0 lw 36 philippe bozon 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 c 18 ron wilson 4 0 0 0 2 4 0 0 0 0 5 garth butcher 4 0 0 0 1 2 0 0 0 0 33 stephane quintal 4 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 44 bret hedican 4 0 0 0 0 8 0 0 0 0 34 murray baron 4 0 0 0 1 8 0 0 0 0 4 rick zombo 4 0 0 0 1 10 0 0 0 0 g 31 curtis joseph 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 6 doug 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 c 22 ron sutter 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 rw 38 igor korolev 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 rw 39 kelly chase 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 curt giles 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 g 29 guy hebert 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 rookie goaltending gp min ga avg w l en sa save 31 curtis joseph 4 251 6 1 43 4 0 0 2 140 957 29 guy hebert 0 00 0 0 00 0 0 0 0 00 team totals 4 251 6 1 43 4 0 0 2 140 957 shutouts sa shots goals 13 6 1st period 4 1 2nd period 3 4 3rd period 5 1 overtime 1 0 power play goals 7 29 1 24 short handed goals 1 0 empty net goals 0 0 shots 97 140 \) l l e z l e b l u e ! ! ! joe ashkar contact blues saint louis jca2 cec1 wustl edu \( \) blues
etxonss ufsa ericsson se \( staffan axelsson \) subject wc 93 results , april 25 nntp posting host uipc104 ericsson se organization ericsson telecom , stockholm , sweden lines 139 1993 world championships germany group results sweden switzerland 4 6 \( 0 3 , 3 1 , 1 2 \) 1st swi 0 1 1 3 21 swi 0 2 patrick howald 1 11 37 swi 0 3 patrick howald 2 \( sven \) 16 00 2nd swe 1 3 peter andersson 1 \( michael nylander \) 2 47 \( pp \) swi 1 4 roman 1 \( martin , sven \) 8 53 \( pp \) swe 2 4 jonas bergqvist 3 \( markus naslund \) 9 08 swe 3 4 jan larsson 1 \( patrik juhlin \) 18 50 3rd swe 4 4 mikael renberg 2 \( thomas rundqvist , peter andersson \) 7 49 swi 4 5 roman 2 9 07 swi 4 6 felix 1 \( sven , thomas \) 11 29 shots goal penalties attendance referee sweden 5 20 18 43 4 2min 6 , 000 rob hearn , usa switzerland 10 6 7 23 5 2min switzerland beat sweden wc first time since 1950 , swiss small chance reaching quarterfinals \( austria beats italy tonight \) swiss took lead hakan ahlund made incredibly stupid drop pass blue line , came alone soderstrom beat tommy stick side swedes continued make mistakes howald allowed skate swedish put puck past tommy make 0 2 0 3 nice one , howald entered swedish zone , slammed breaks , shot went tommy 's far post one periods 've seen sweden play year second period saw new swedish team , swiss ice puck many times pp , nylander skated boards , made initial save , peter andersson scored rebound power play goal swiss , slap shot blue line hit two players way goal past soderstrom also jonas bergqvist made 2 4 nice pass naslund behind goal jan larsson reduced lead 3 4 end 2nd period , pp skated front goal , put puck 's 5 hole third period , sweden slap shot renberg 's 5 hole , another defensive mistake swedes , allowed skate around swedish goal close range could make 4 5 scored 4 6 2 1 break away , put top shelf chance soderstrom switzerland goaltender 20 \( 28 \) defense 26 rick , 2 martin 16 sven , 5 martin 7 , 17 patrick sutter 31 samuel balmer forwards 22 alfred , 11 felix , 25 roman 23 gil , 12 roberto , 10 patrick howald 35 christian weber , 18 andreas ton , 24 joerg 15 bruno , 13 thomas , 29 russia canada 1 3 \( 0 2 , 1 1 , 0 0 \) 1st 0 1 kevin dineen 1 \( garry galley \) 4 28 0 2 paul kariya 2 \( eric lindros \) 12 20 \( pp \) 2nd 0 3 eric lindros 10 \( paul kariya , shayne corson \) 9 40 rus 1 3 valeri 2 \( \? \) 16 24 3rd penalties rus 2 2min 1 , 5 2min referee anton , czech republic attendance 8 , 600 russia probably made best game , yet n't enough win effective canadians galley took slap shot found dineen far post , dineen deflected puck past trefilov russian goal power play goal , couple eric lindros found kariya alone far post , kariya put puck high sliding trefilov russia shots first period 12 5 , scoring opportunities , could n't score second period saw lindros scoring 10th \( ! ! \) goal wc kariya entered russian zone , slammed break get past defenseman , made nice pass corson got stick puck deflect lindros one timed puck russians finally got goal , broke side made slap shot tugnutt 's top right hand corner player game canada voted paul kariya , russia valeri agree , difference game lindros kariya , part also tugnutt kariya far better game vs swedes , impressive kariya got place line lindros mike gartner went rib injury early first period lindros , btw , lead point scoring 14 pts \( 9 5 \) game , 7 pts ahead next player ! e double much next player \( among kariya 1 6 \) amazing ! group b results finland czech republic 1 3 \( 0 0 , 1 1 , 0 2 \) 1st 2nd cze 0 1 petr hrbek 2 11 04 fin 1 1 mika 1 17 51 3rd cze 1 2 jiri dolezal 3 5 04 cze 1 3 martin 2 19 45 \( en \) penalties fin 8 2min , cze 9 2min referee vincent , switzerland attendance 4 , 300 germany usa 6 3 \( 5 0 , 0 0 , 1 3 \) 1st ger 1 0 2 7 12 ger 2 0 3 11 16 ger 3 0 ernst 3 11 55 ger 4 0 michael 3 16 06 ger 5 0 benoit 1 18 45 2nd 3rd usa 5 1 derek plante 1 4 06 ger 6 1 dieter 5 6 57 usa 6 2 craig johnson 1 7 30 usa 6 3 rob gaudreau 3 13 07 penalties ger 7 2min , usa 10 2min referee valeri , russia attendance 11 , 000 \( \( staffan axelsson etxonss ufsa ericsson se \) \) r h contact swedish hockey
bks2 cbnewsi cb att com \( bryan k strouse \) subject nhl playoff results games played 4 21 93 organization keywords division semis game 2 lines 129 nhl playoff results 4 21 93 conference semi finals best seven patrick adams norris smythe nj buf \( leads 2 0 \) stl \( leads 2 0 \) win pit \( leads 2 0 \) bos chi van \( leads 2 0 \) nyi \( tied 1 1 \) mon tor la \( tied 1 1 \) que \( leads 2 0 \) det \( leads 2 0 \) cal toronto maple leafs 0 1 1 2 detroit red wings \( leads series 2 0 \) 1 3 2 6 1st period det , lidstrom 1 \( yzerman , coffey \) \( pp \) 4 06 2nd period det , fedorov 1 \( sh \) 0 43 det , yzerman 2 \( coffey , chiasson \) \( pp \) 8 06 det , yzerman 3 \( coffey , sheppard \) 17 40 tor , mironov 1 \( gill , gilmour \) 19 10 3rd period tor , gilmour 2 \( anderson \) 4 32 det , ysebaert 1 \( kozlov \) 5 51 det , drake 1 \( kozlov , kennedy \) 18 33 powerplay opportunities maple leafs 1 8 red wings 2 7 shots goal maple leafs 10 7 13 30 red wings 16 11 3 30 toronto maple leafs potvin \( 0 2 \) \( 30 shots 24 saves \) detroit red wings cheveldae \( 2 0 \) \( 30 shots 28 saves \) att 19 , 875 st louis blues \( leads series 2 0 \) 2 0 0 2 chicago blackhawks 0 0 0 0 1st period stl , hull 2 \( brown , janney \) \( pp \) 7 38 stl , lowry 1 \( sh \) 13 53 2nd period none 3rd period none powerplay opportunities blues 1 5 blackhawks 0 6 shots goal blues 9 3 5 17 blackhawks 16 19 12 47 st louis blues joseph \( 2 0 \) \( 47 shots 45 saves \) chicago blackhawks belfour \( 0 2 \) \( 17 shots 15 saves \) att 17 , 339 los angeles kings \( series tied 1 1 \) 1 0 3 4 calgary flames 0 5 4 9 1st period lak , carson 3 1 11 2nd period cal , otto 1 \( roberts , macinnis \) 5 02 cal , yawney 2 \( dahlquist , ranheim \) 8 02 cal , reichel 1 \( fleury \) \( pp \) 10 52 cal , nieuwendyk 1 \( roberts , musil \) 13 47 cal , otto 2 \( dahl \) \( sh \) 19 37 3rd period lak , carson 4 \( granato , shuchuk \) 5 34 cal , reichel 2 \( fleury , macinnis \) \( pp \) 7 23 cal , paslawski 1 \( roberts , nieuwendyk \) 8 14 cal , fleury 1 \( macinnis , nieuwendyk \) \( pp \) 10 37 lak , rychel 1 \( blake \) 11 56 lak , kurri 1 \( gretzky , zhitnik \) \( pp \) 15 22 cal , suter 2 \( skrudland , berube \) 19 15 powerplay opportunities kings 1 7 flames 3 6 shots goal kings 14 8 9 31 flames 9 16 15 40 los angeles kings hrudey \( 1 1 \) \( 40 shots 31 saves \) calgary flames vernon \( 1 1 \) \( 31 shots 27 saves \) att 19 , 477 winnipeg jets 0 1 1 2 vancouver canucks \( leads series 2 0 \) 1 1 1 3 1st period van , ronning 2 \( courtnall , linden \) 11 37 2nd period van , courtnall 1 6 05 win , domi 1 \( king , barnes \) 6 48 3rd period win , numminen 1 \( housley , selanne \) \( pp \) 0 30 van , bure 1 \( adams , craven \) 4 01 powerplay opportunities jets 1 4 canucks 0 3 shots goal jets 6 10 6 22 canucks 14 9 9 32 winnipeg jets essensa \( 0 2 \) \( 32 shots 29 saves \) vancouver canucks mclean \( 2 0 \) \( 22 shots 20 saves \) att 15 , 729 spike
messi uku fi \( jarkko \) subject question goalie 's equipment organization university kuopio , finland lines 8 rules equipment changed \? seems e g glove become bigger bigger time \( pads \) , goalies wearing size jerseys dreaming \? watch old photos films let say ten years back , think difference quite obvious expert , please let know \( goalies become bigger \? \) jarkko 14 \( trouble scoring \? \)
tuba calpoly edu \( edge \) subject kings even series 2 shines ! ! organization california polytechnic state university , san luis obispo lines 98 article abyss west sun com dvb ick \( david van beveren \) writes vzhivov superior carleton ca \( vladimir zhivov \) writes game 3 report deleted \( bad \) wo n't affect series , go two games , things equal wrong kings put hustle , team play consistent pounding took back calgary series tied 2 games final score 3 1 , third goal empty netter 19 54 third \( conacher \) official game report , observations stands 1 melrose made wise decision put stauber back goal robb something prove , stopping 28 29 facing fierce calgary attack numerous saves 2 kings third fourth lines rose occasion , playing rough avoiding bad penalties warren rychel scored game winner early second period \( rookie defenseman zhitnik scored first blue line late first \) 3 dave taylor awesome suffered broken nose second , checked behind boards roberts , got 5 game came back late third , ice conacher scored empty netter actually third period , return bring spark crowd , players , played awesome defense third 4 kings go guys still producing goals kurri , granato , sandstrom robitaille , total 10 points forgot gretzky guys start scoring , kings unstoppable , continue great defensive work well 5 mccreary sucks called high sticking someone already ice , sandstrom high sticking already ice missed many stick penalties , including one flame goalie jeff reese followed granato almost blue line cross checked called game , series tack penalties first almost none third ca n't nhl supply decent officiating \? 6 sitting directly across ice ron nancy reagan empty netter scored , nancy seat fists high air way go nancy ! series still close call tuesday 's game may deciding one expect king might put vernon back , even though reese two good games la reese historically good la second time lost move would good kings , since vernon sieve sure stauber get call kings stauber net tuesday hopefully provide another stellar performance earn name robb stopper stauber two lines kings wake great see , cannot depend pat conacher warren rychel offense expect sandstrom , granato gretzky might put back together line like early season would leave kurri , carson luc second paper , two lines look powerful let 's see make real believe know gretzky sandstrom , putting number people left also carson , kurri line ignited , light fire lines \( hopefully ! \) go kings ! dvb evident scoring drought getting luc , slight breakaway third \( think \) steamed bench , emotion might help break streak also , noticed blake really good chances score , fanned , shot wide injury still affecting \? e g e tuba calpoly edu
eos ericsson se \( marek \) subject nntp posting host ericsson se reply marek eos ericsson se organization ericsson telecom ab distribution lines 72 article 1993apr22 eua ericsson se , eua ericsson se \( anders engwall \) writes \( \) om jag f tt r tt f r vi , , , , , v nn , , , rn , v stra mora , g , avesta , uppsala , k ping , , , tv lag fr n v stra \( \? \) stra , v , , , , aik , , , , , ping , dra h , , bor , v stervik , , , , tv lag fr n dra \( \) f r det f r det fel att man har f r f r det kan man ju r och v stervik f en fri sl ng ja , r det en fix f r n problem med , men v stervik \? r det nne f r att ping der , de ver \? ni man ger , som 3 stra \? \? att man skulle bli att man inte ut p f att man inte fel lag var en fix som , men v stervik ! ! att det p ping jag inte p , man ju g rna till dra \( iaf om man g r \) r att l ta och v stervik g ra , men skulle inte stra avg ras skulle de ga om det \? det st med r som f rra ret , fast v det r inte r , var en match fr n att g till allsvenskan f rra ret ist g ni n n av dem bra r \? aik , , och hik sl ss om tv ! ! om man var sin division skulle de sj till en allsvenskan , men nu ste tv ge vika var finns r det \? \( jag har h rt att hik har l en protest till f stra f att l ta 3 division om tv allsvenskan och jul skulle man sl de till tv , en der och en p tt inte lag som fr n en r det finns bra lag en som jag att man inf rde r att l ta allsvenskan f sm det skulle bli en extra till division om k nde att de var r till sm det skulle p lag elitserien och division js \? anders engwall email anders engwall eua ericsson se ellemtel ab voice 46 8 727 , sweden fax 46 8 727 42 20 h dom , som ger c toll n , 1899 marek marek eos ericsson se man inte fr ericsson telecom ab om man har en system design division r sweden gunnar str ng \( 92 \) jnf va , vg 13
catcher netcom com \( paul w francisco \) subject nhl letter \( quite long \) organization night people lines 56 article 1993apr26 ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) writes 1993apr25 sol ctr columbia edu phoenix startide ctr columbia edu \( ali lemer \) writes i'm even going bother reply ranting post letter addressed gary bettman , reply wishes post addressed quote said , letter addressed bettman post \( , though pretty much content , entirely different entity \) addressed puts letter mail doubt say figure wanted let people see since topic interests lot folks 's entirely different purpose sending letter bettman unfortunately guess let know n't \? represent large body hockey fans standard care use define large 65 people constitutes nothing tiny group fanatics way representative large body hockey fans internet let alone one largest computer networks world largest computer networks world phrase definition internet , group whole claims represent business whether large , large compared say , number folks r h sending letter thank changing names , least point curiosity thought 'd look official definition large dictionary reads large 1 usual power , capacity , scope 2 exceeding things like kind quantity size idea many letters bettman may gotten issue many people may signed 65 people may , thereby definition 2 would also wager geographical range signatures quite large , would give large scope might impressed size list names would impressed unless large \? course assuming actually agree writing simply trying pain whole issue hear speak personally n't know whether agree letter mixed emotions like names , n't think make difficult learn game , might shred validity change paul w francisco shadow angel cries catcher netcom com front line assembly
catcher netcom com \( paul w francisco \) subject nhl letter roger 's response organization night people lines 35 assume flame bait roger , actually truly held opinion article 1993apr26 ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) writes would say letter clearly implies representation views group belong n't share views n't believe majority posters r hockey share views intention allowing simply go ahead without making feelings subject clear thanks speaking n't feel important enough say something would n't say letter clearly implies representation views group belong represents subset \( n't belong \) larger group \( , n't moderated group \) look , several ways state opposing viewpoint three come mind follows 1 \) say subtly result may clear 2 \) say directly yet politely result probably spark interesting conversation 3 \) say directly result validity goes right window would agree unwarranted use said term entirely immature realize anything say , certainly , used paul w francisco shadow angel cries catcher netcom com front line assembly
gmr com \( brian \) subject wings ogrodnick organization electronic data systems lines 10 distribution world reply gmr com nntp posting host ct gmr com article andrew cmu edu , mike andrew cmu edu \( \) writes n't seen mention ogrodnick yet box scores anyone know 's playing \? mike 's , n't injured played well put lineup end season murray sit somebody , though red wings n't played well first game , may second murray juggle players wings dominating toronto like \?
subject sharks review part 5 left wings caldwell8102 mtroyal ab ca organization mount royal college , calgary , alberta lines 24 article apple com , chuq apple com \( chuq von rospach \) writes paul data io com \( paul brownlow \) writes wood played junior career seattle one leading scorers mediocre team traded away 1992 rarely lost fight one toughest players whl wood fairly small enforcer type mean , fleury pretty good job n't large , dody fleury fleury enforcer sure , fleury never never fight , seems 're saying wood closest fleury ever came fighting game two years ago los angeles mcsorley pinched fleury 's head arm fleury dropped gloves gave mcsorley weak shot side head , knowing good thing saw one , popped fleury one right eyes end fight fleury got ten stitches trouble player ever see theo fighting cliff ronning , even 'd giving two inches 10 15 pounds \) alan
subject cherry help , caldwell8102 mtroyal ab ca 1993apr21 alchemy chem utoronto ca 1993apr21 adobe com 1993apr21 alchemy chem utoronto ca organization mount royal college , calgary , alberta lines 34 article 1993apr21 alchemy chem utoronto ca , golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) writes article 1993apr21 adobe com snichols adobe com \( sherri nichols \) writes article 1993apr21 alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) writes john madden picks gary clark madden team lot , much better receivers much reasons cherry sings praises doug gilmour little guy heart yet one n't see string american posts saying john madden lost marbles maybe john madden n't pretend madden team team best players maybe john madden n't feel need players n't choose madden team maybe madden actually demonstrates knowledge football broadcasts game cherry n't players except dive , , wield sticks weapons hiding behind , attempt injure aggravate injuries others always true fact , case doug gilmour , actually praises europeans things scum cherry 's opinion canadian kids tough , like real canadian ulf samuelsson cheap shots mark messier 's ribs wants ulf 's head doug gilmour breaks tomas sandstrom 's arm says sandstrom coming methinks either confused bigot likely latter used like cherry thought great i'm starting see true colors \( \) see , think 's asshole alan
subject makarov caldwell8102 mtroyal ab ca 1993apr21 iscnvx lmsc lockheed com 1993apr21 2880 csd newshost stanford edu organization mount royal college , calgary , alberta lines 25 article 1993apr21 2880 csd newshost stanford edu , nlu xenon stanford edu \( nelson lu \) writes n't think sharks dig free agent market good free agents require quite bit compensation , set sharks back far player development goes remember , sharks unwilling give player \( \) addition 2 million offered joe murphy , think 's good approach tried sign sergei makarov season makarov would n't required compensation matching makarov offer real mistake dave king made year wonder intelligence signing 33 year old obviously downside career 4 year 2 million contract risebrough matched offer king 's request makarov spent last quarter season press box work ethic plain stinks mention 's lost step longer get position make nifty passes think makarov available free offseason anybody agrees pay contract 's ineffective calgary , might able help team like san jose , shortage talent 's takers , makarov n't show improvement training camp , think flames bite bullet buy makarov 's contract release current attitude , detriment team alan
subject hart trophy stuff caldwell8102 mtroyal ab ca organization mount royal college , calgary , alberta lines 22 article abyss west sun com , dvb ick \( david van beveren \) writes think nhl , comes mind \? gilmour \? gretzky \? mario \? ah mention mario \? said gretzky , n't really following along , said gilmour , true maynard n't even think selection hart deserves serious discussion group agree lemieux deserves hart , far hart trophy goes player valuable team , best player league arguement really worthless pens without mario still damn good hockey team leafs without gilmour would fighting tampa bay 3rd pick like said , mario deserves , imho close race gilmour victory would surprise dislike doug gilmour passion , must concede extremely valuable leafs alan
alleg edu \( brett ball \) subject ranger fans \? \? \? \? \? organization allegheny college article 1993apr22 101356 1 eagle wesleyan edu writes one happy ranger 's hiring keenan 's bad n't hire smith fired nielsen , maybe could babies team made playoffs team needs little fire butts ! ! reading hockey news n't see many ranger fans writing i'm new system big hockey fan long suffering \( 1940 \) ranger fan remember suffering builds character ! ! final questions way team handled last dreadful stretch 1 knowing needed offensive help blueline , n't see mike hurlbut , played pretty well called leetch first went \? 2 \? \? \? \? ! ! ! ! ! joe kocur playing every night \? bob probert tough also play 3 come paul broten relegated street clothes end season least plays heart character , draws penalties plays 110 's ice doghouse reason \? 4 joe \? \? \? \? \? ! ! ! ! enough said ! ranger fans may suffering 're loyal , unlike islander fans show team wins far stanley cup goes think 's one team test pittsburgh 's detroit would entertaining hard fought series mario amazing ! kurt think joe play every night big physical guy , gets fans game big hits \( checks fists \) big advantage get crowd going plus , helps protect players notice fights kocur ice unless seen people start go essa tikkanen , go away kocur steps think big asset , third line , special situation play
etxonss ufsa ericsson se \( staffan axelsson \) subject sharks review part 7 trades nntp posting host uipc104 ericsson se organization ericsson telecom , stockholm , sweden lines 29 nlu xenon stanford edu \( nelson lu \) writes acquired c marcus , n islanders rw brian mullen grade \( b c \) known yet impact , overall , trade would , yet contract sharks , appear ready become anytime soon mullen , meanwhile , productive \( somewhat \) season islanders , however , appear big scorer memory right , 2 points 11 games swedish elite league '91 92 season , n't notice name frequently staffan 's reports , n't make national team either appear good sign marcus 6 goals , 10 assists , 16 points 22 pim 31 games season leksand swedish elite league 10th point scoring leksand marcus \( born may 31 1971 , ht 185 cm , wt 85 kg \) relatively young might still start producing , think sharks may done bad trade staffan \( \( staffan axelsson etxonss ufsa ericsson se \) \) r h contact swedish hockey
galvint cs nps navy mil \( thomas galvin \) subject think espn shafted \? organization naval postgraduate school , monterey ca lines 29 article vm cmp ilstu edu vm cmp ilstu edu writes like many others watching caps isles game went baseball game pissed could interupt important game understand contracts , would think would clause contract concerning important games ! anyway , us blues \( hawks \) fans got shafted worse ! everyone u watched game abc however us live central illinois area subjected watching \( \? \) area affected telecast get see game except hawk vision game , televised , would first home hawks game shown area since 1980 television bull got stop deprived seeing games , due ticket prices , also deprived watching tv peace , hammer i'm familiar situation \( individual compuserve also victimized equally pissed \) local television station contract could broken item , strongly suggest call affiliate vent anger \( supposedly one station told friend received hundreds angry calls translate far less incentive pre hockey telecasts future contract written pathetic time slot \) tom galvin galvint taurus cs nps navy mil
galvint cs nps navy mil \( thomas galvin \) subject espn f ck organization naval postgraduate school , monterey ca lines 30 article wavefront wti com matthew wavefront wti com \( matt \) writes okay 's gripe ing \( \? \? whatever \) \( live santa barbara reference think \) okay , abc showed kings flames fine yawn espn \( fortunate baseball game \) showed red wings toronto game cool swear advertisements week long said espn would show pitt nj tuesday bos buff thursday raced home work early \( 4 30 pacific \) catch game , alas , boston buffalo game promised would show pitt nj game thursday overnight changed mind rest deleted espn never committed \( never saw advertised \) particular thursday game originally scheduled bos buf , somehow leaked net , knowledge espn never publicly released schedule monday announced pitt nj thursday boston buffalo saturday tom galvin galvint taurus cs nps navy mil
galvint cs nps navy mil \( thomas galvin \) subject espn organization naval postgraduate school , monterey ca lines 40 article randolin 3 polisci umn edu randolin polisci umn edu \( robert andolina \) writes thing confuses espn decided show penguins devils thursday night first two games dominated pitt , would think would show different game addition fact show games sake fair exposure owns rights bruin telecasts suspect going sell one telecast espn \( remember , espn owns exclusive rights finals , entire playoffs \) since espn bought sca contract , less showing devils penguins also , know \( far tell \) espn going show campbell conference games regularly first two rounds believe going show campbell games first two rounds series wear \( games 6 7 , perhaps games 5 , 6 , 7 \) think broadcast rights factor comes plus way fitting western game times current schedule unless nhl willing make western club move game think nhl got much could deck abc also , anyone info abc coverage sunday \( 4 25 \) \? exact coverage last week pit nj game 4 east , chi stl central , la cgy mountains west robert andolina randolin polisci umn edu tom galvin galvint taurus cs nps navy mil
mre teal eng sun com \( mike eisler \) subject habs late organization sun microsystems , mountain view , ca usa lines 14 nntp posting host teal article 1993apr21 newshub ists ca dchhabra stpl ists ca \( deepak chhabra \) writes vincent damphousse decided take vacation , apparently respect power hockey gods preventing commenting , commenting whether guy damphousse traded vacation perhaps roger \( demonstrably contempt hockey gods paying \) dares comment two \? mike eisler , mre eng sun com ``not leafs best team , fans even intelligent insightful pittsburgh 's players mighty bright , mean , really going get wallet back , right \? '' jan brittenson 3 93 , leaf pen woofers rec sport hockey
mre teal eng sun com \( mike eisler \) subject let's go buffalo ! organization sun microsystems , mountain view , ca usa lines 16 nntp posting host teal article 93111 psuvm psu edu robbie po rap115 psuvm psu edu writes article andrew cmu edu , william k willis ww1a andrew cmu edu says know , never really appreciated ! looks like bob errey 's ring really locker room , everyone else wants one , ! \) correct i'm wrong though , \( , fuhr 's 5 rings errey 's n't bob 2 rings \? mike eisler , mre eng sun com ``not leafs best team , fans even intelligent insightful pittsburgh 's players mighty bright , mean , really going get wallet back , right \? '' jan brittenson 3 93 , leaf pen woofers rec sport hockey
bson gnu ai mit edu \( jan brittenson \) subject buffalo 4 , boston 0 defense ! ! article nutrimat bson 1993apr21 alchemy chem utoronto ca hsdndev harvard edu organization nil lines 18 nntp posting host nutrimat gnu ai mit edu reply nhmas gauss med harvard edu 's message 21 apr 1993 20 12 56 gmt article hsdndev harvard edu nhmas gauss med harvard edu \( mark shneyder 432 4219 \) writes bruins never come back win falling behind 2 0 entire 68 year history n't mean much since statistics mostly based 5 game playoff format , yes , looks dark b 's disappointment still , think problem mental needed saves blue came , perhaps offer something mentally rally around think gets start game three \? hope going blue team rally around , maybe moog jan brittenson bson gnu ai mit edu
jake rambler eng sun com \( jason cockroft \) subject pens fans reactions organization sun microsystems , inc lines 10 distribution world reply jake rambler eng sun com nntp posting host rambler eng sun com i'm really impressed bowman 's coaching tactics 's answer every move brooks thrown pens susan dart \? jake
aludra usc edu \( jonathan barrett \) subject flames final kings destroyed organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 16 nntp posting host aludra usc edu vzhivov superior carleton ca \( vladimir zhivov \) writes flames final score calgary 9 l 4 things back belong gretzky n't play kelly hrudey old self let 's hope flames put old timers away asap vlad impaler yes , last couple months failed show one game five presumably last night one game five jon
gak wrs com \( richard stueven \) subject sharks jack feirerra \( sharks kingston fired ! ! ! \) nntp posting host reply gak wrs com organization wind river systems , inc lines 33 article apple com , chuq apple com \( chuq von rospach \) writes snichols adobe com \( sherri nichols \) writes course , ferreira also traded number veterans marginal contributions fired , 's clear would different besides , marginal contributors let 's also forget ferreira came close trading kelly kisio , , rumors 've heard true , strong objections aspects shark management probably lot three headed , consensus oriented gm imagine , second , sharks would today fax machine n't jammed hand , i'm hard pressed think real mistakes made imagine indeed , benefit hindsight let 's say view sharks' upper management , attempt trade kisio major factor decision fire feirerra i'm inclined take exactly opposite view kept 's obviously man hockey ! \( wonder sacrifice made muse fax \? \( job , guess \) \) fun gak richard stueven aha erected multitude new internet gak wrs com go offices , sent swarms attmail ! attmail ! ! gak officers harass people , cow palace 107 h 3 4 eat substance
gp2011 andy bgsu edu \( george pavlic \) subject lemieux 's getting hart jeez hope ! organization bowling green state university b g , oh lines 42 article 22apr93 02956996 0062 unbvm1 csd unb ca , patrick walker f1hh unb ca wrote get hart \? gretzky , million years least year n't played year yzerman , though would nice , n't think 'll get , 's consistent , well known \( thought ! \) mario jesus ! 's bad enough utter word without extremely sick pissed guy 's think become jeez , ha enough falling ! stick n't come near , gotta fall , got get penalty team ! 's annual whine thon today 's host , jerry lewis way , canadian , play little , watched hockey night canada , \( never missed show ! \) , one , well , , home team finals , hockey fan ten minutes give f king break mario best player ever ! gretzky die \? wish bobby clarke still around , 'd know like mario ! 'd bounce around like puck condone violence , 'll make exception mario mario going complain hit , someone give scotty something real complain sorry ramble see hate mario pat walker unb , along mario lemieux , must another planet difference lemieux comes one geo washington , abe lincoln \( many great men women world \) whereas come one david koresh yeah , mario good drawing penalties , would n't try something \( claim play \) give team advantage \? n't remember lemieux getting diving penalties year , whereas many others finally , mario never complained hit knows 's part game gets back even bigger hit guy scoring goals \( setting \) n't compassion man gone much life \? george
ccu umanitoba ca \( anson sen mak \) subject 77 's \? nntp posting host ccu umanitoba ca organization university manitoba , winnipeg , manitoba , canada lines 18 article 1r23on 4p6 bigboote wpi edu ching bigwpi wpi edu \( logistician \) writes need players wearing 77 nhl know one , ray borque bruins help would greatly appreciated thanx logistician reigns supreme ! ! ! go blue ! ! ! go tigers ! ! ! go pistons ! ! ! go lions ! ! ! go red wings ! ! ! ching wpi wpi edu pierre turgeon nyi , paul coffey 77 hope help anson
anna matyas am2x andrew cmu edu subject pens fans reactions organization h ss dean 's office , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 46 blue cis pitt edu andrew cmu edu nntp posting host po2 andrew cmu edu reply andrew cmu edu writes richard j coyle writes 's inner calm 's boredom , 's spoiled arena 's quiet church many nights year many us take winning granted 's seemingly forever since team lost , 've forgotten 's like feel real excitement surprise victory n't really agree entirely different high , rate first cup pens , n't think anything else watched mario skate thing around ice seems question whether , thirty years , young hockey fans \( may millions ! \) still ask us like watch team 's playing still nervous ever devils blasting shots barrasso final seconds game three , fun far yet i'm bored either people know say winning second cup better first nothing ever top first one i'm every bit excited year experiencing inner calm susan originally referred inner calm boredom far arena general boring , well richard 's got right 's way season attribute lot new fans n't spirit knowledge long time fans last tuesday 's game , overheard man express surprise goaltender get assist anyone follows sports regularity knows anything happen time i'm confident pens i'm also stupid enough think one minute 's impossible new jersey blow series doubt happen 's possible bored \? uh uh spoiled \? least forgot excitement like \? living amazing streak n't exciting \? ! n't take darned thing granted god , look chicago see problem quietly anyway n't gonna last forever intend enjoy mom
cs purdue edu \( carl \) subject nhl scoring leaders organization purdue university department computer sciences lines 235 distribution world nntp posting host cs purdue edu nhl 's leaders goals points end 1992 3 season , much thanks joseph achkar carl notes active player player scored least one point past season points leaders follow goal leaders find mistakes , please send email time nhl leading goal scorers \( denotes active player \) 1 gordie howe det hfd 801 2 wayne gretzky edm la 765 3 marcel dionne det la nyr 731 4 phil esposito chi bos nyr 717 5 bobby hull chi wpg hfd 610 6 mike gartner wsh min nyr 583 7 mike bossy nyi 573 8 guy mtl nyr que 560 9 johnny det bos 556 10 maurice richard mtl 544 11 stan chi 541 12 frank tor det mtl 533 13 michel goulet que chi 532 14 jari kurri edm la 524 15 bryan trottier nyi pit 520 16 gilbert buf 512 17 jean mtl 507 18 mcdonald tor col cgy 500 19 jean ratelle nyr bos 491 20 norm det tor 490 21 dino ciccarelli min wsh det 485 22 darryl sittler tor phi det 484 23 mario lemieux pit 477 24 glenn anderson edm tor 459 25 alex det 456 26 mark messier edm nyr 452 27 dale hawerchuk wpg buf 449 28 rick nyr bos 448 29 steve yzerman det 445 30 peter stastny que nj 444 31 rick vaive van tor chi buf 441 32 joe mullen stl cgy pit 433 33 yvan mtl 428 34 dave taylor la 427 35 steve mtl la 424 36 denis savard chi mtl 423 37 bill barber phi 420 38 brian propp phi bos min 413 39 gary unger tor det stl atl la edm 413 40 rod gilbert nyr 406 41 steve larmer chi 406 42 john ogrodnick det que nyr 402 active players bernie nicholls la nyr edm nj 397 pat lafontaine nyi buf 386 brian bellows min mtl 382 dave andreychuk buf tor 373 tim kerr phi nyr hfd 370 bobby smith min mtl 357 brett hull cgy stl 356 luc robitaille la 353 mike foligno det buf tor 351 dave christian wpg wsh bos stl chi 340 paul coffey edm pit la det 330 brent sutter nyi chi 325 pat verbeek nj hfd 318 ron francis hfd pit 311 cam neely van bos 292 ray bourque bos 291 bob carpenter wsh nyr la bos tor 285 brent ashton van col nj min que det wpg bos cgy 284 doug gilmour stl cgy tor 277 rick tocchet phi pit 277 kevin dineen hfd phi 275 tomas sandstrom nyr la 273 dale hunter que wsh 269 ryan walter wsh mtl van 264 brian mullen wpg nyr sj nyi 260 ed olczyk chi tor wpg nyr 260 kirk muller nj mtl 258 joe nieuwendyk cgy 257 jimmy carson la edm det 254 time nhl scoring leaders \( denotes active player \) 1 wayne gretzky edm la 765 2 gordie howe det hfd 801 1049 1850 3 marcel dionne det la nyr 731 1040 4 phil esposito chi bos nyr 717 873 5 stan chi 541 926 6 bryan trottier nyi pit 520 890 7 johnny det bos 556 813 8 guy mtl nyr que 560 793 9 gilbert buf 512 814 1326 10 alex det 456 825 1281 11 jean ratelle nyr bos 491 776 12 mark messier edm nyr 452 780 13 norm det tor 490 739 1229 14 peter stastny que nj 444 777 1221 15 jean mtl 507 712 16 dale hawerchuk wpg buf 449 763 1212 17 bobby clarke phi 358 852 1210 18 paul coffey edm pit la det 330 871 1201 19 denis savard chi mtl 423 769 20 jari kurri edm la 524 666 1190 21 mario lemieux pit 477 697 1174 22 bobby hull chi wpg hfd 610 560 1170 23 bernie federko stl 369 761 24 mike bossy nyi 573 553 1126 25 michel goulet que chi 532 590 1122 26 darryl sittler tor phi det 484 637 1121 27 mike gartner wsh min nyr 583 524 28 frank tor det mtl 533 570 1103 29 ray bourque bos 291 806 1099 30 dave taylor la 427 635 1062 31 denis potvin nyi 310 742 1052 32 henri richard mtl 358 688 1046 33 steve yzerman det 445 595 1040 34 bobby smith min mtl 357 679 1036 35 rod gilbert nyr 406 615 1021 36 glenn anderson edm tor 459 559 1018 37 mcdonald tor col cgy 500 506 1006 38 rick nyr bos 448 540 988 39 dave keon tor hfd 396 590 986 40 ron francis hfd pit 311 675 986 41 bernie nicholls la nyr edm nj 397 580 977 42 brian propp phi bos min 413 974 43 andy nyr tor det pit 349 624 973 44 maurice richard mtl 544 421 965 45 larry robinson mtl la 208 750 958 46 dino ciccarelli min wsh det 485 472 957 47 steve larmer chi 406 517 923 48 joe mullen stl cgy pit 433 486 919 49 bobby orr bos chi 270 645 915 50 brad park nyr bos det 213 683 896 51 butch goring la nyi bos 375 513 888 52 bill barber phi 420 463 883 53 dennis cal cle wsh min 356 521 877 54 ivan bos cal chi atl van det 361 505 866 55 yvan mtl 428 435 863 56 dean prentice nyr bos det pit min 391 469 860 57 ted lindsay det chi 379 472 851 58 tom atl chi 292 551 843 59 dale hunter que wsh 269 570 839 60 john tonelli nyi cgy la chi que 325 511 836 61 jacques mtl 366 469 835 62 larry murphy la wsh min pit 203 631 834 63 john ogrodnick det que nyr 402 425 827 64 doug wilson chi sj 237 590 827 65 doug gilmour stl cgy tor 277 548 825 66 red kelly det tor 281 542 823 67 pierre larouche pit mtl hfd nyr 395 427 822 68 bernie mtl nyr 393 429 822 69 steve mtl la 424 393 817 70 phil housley buf wpg 242 575 817 71 kc col tor que nyr buf pit 356 458 814 72 peter buf bos van nj 363 450 813 73 brian bellows min mtl 382 428 810 74 dave andreychuk buf tor 373 436 809 75 pit martin det bos chi van 324 485 809 76 pat lafontaine nyi buf 386 421 807 77 ken linesman phi edm bos 256 551 807 78 gary unger tor det stl atl la edm 413 391 804 79 ken hodge , sr chi bos nyr 328 472 800 80 neal broten min 249 547 796 81 wayne cashman bos 277 516 793 82 rick vaive van tor chi buf 441 347 788 83 borje salming tor det 150 637 787 84 jean pit atl wsh 391 383 85 peter det mtl pit 288 485 773 86 dave christian wpg wsh bos stl chi 340 430 770 87 rick kehoe tor pit 371 396 767 88 rick phi hfd pit det 349 410 759 89 thomas steen wpg 240 511 751 active players al macinnis cgy 185 555 740 luc robitaille la 353 371 724 mike foligno det buf tor 351 367 718 brent sutter nyi chi 325 389 714 mark howe hfd phi det 192 520 712 kirk muller nj mtl 258 433 691 tim kerr phi nyr hfd 370 304 674 adam oates det stl bos 167 490 657 randy tor pit wpg 148 499 647 ryan walter wsh mtl van 264 382 646 pat verbeek nj hfd 318 313 631 brent ashton van col nj min que det wpg bos cgy 284 345 629 bob carpenter wsh nyr la bos tor 285 337 622 brian mullen wpg nyr sj nyi 260 362 622 ed olczyk chi tor wpg nyr 260 358 618 kelly kisio det nyr sj 215 402 617 brett hull cgy stl 356 247 603 rick tocchet phi pit 277 324 601 dan quinn cgy pit van stl phi min 232 367 599 scott stevens wsh stl nj 132 462 594 tomas sandstrom nyr la 273 320 593 tom bos tor van 235 346 581 dave babych wpg hfd van 120 460 580 mike ridley nyr wsh 230 348 578 laurie boschman tor edm wpg nj ott 225 350 575 keith acton mtl min edm phi 224 350 574 murray craven det phi hfd 205 365 570 kevin dineen hfd phi 275 290 565 rob ramage col stl cgy tor min tb 139 423 562 mike krushelnyski bos edm la tor 234 319 553 gary suter cgy 124 428 552 pierre turgeon buf nyi 218 324 542 troy murray chi wpg 217 324 541 cam neely van bos 292 241 533 geoff courtnall bos edm wsh stl van 246 274 520 vincent damphousse tor edm mtl 195 320 515 jimmy carson la edm det 254 259 513 peter zezel phi stl wsh tor 182 328 510 guy carbonneau mtl 207 302 509 mark osborne det nyr tor wpg 202 301 503 chris chelios mtl chi 108 394 502 dave poulin phi bos 195 301 496 ray ferraro hfd nyi 230 263 493 russ courtnall tor mtl min 208 284 492 joe nieuwendyk cgy 257 234 491 john maclean nj 241 248 489
cleveland freenet edu \( roland behunin \) subject espn wanted show good game organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 9 nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu could put quebec montreal game talk bout ! rivalry roland roland
chuq apple com \( chuq von rospach \) subject 1993 nhl draft organization go sharks , go giants , inc lines 55 nntp posting host apple com cs902043 ariel yorku ca \( shawn luddington \) writes picks ottawa picks 1 means almost 100 alexander daigle go 1 'll either stay traded montreal quebec dunno hat friends genie saying ottawa 's gone soft daigle thinking hard pronger daigle shown attitude latter part season many folks liked , coming back \( second \) multi game suspension stupid , 's really performance stock dropping like rock also remember lot teh draft 1st stuff comes assumption 'll traded quebec lots prospects 's clear quebec would really willing pay lot given current status 's still first round , n't consider first pick lock means point 's also possible senators posturing try bring signing price , since daigle taking lindros lessons imo would take kariya alot leadership ncaa far world championships daigle n't show junior team san jose get kariya kariya wo n't go first three , simple reason 's leaving college , n't believe expansion teams going use first someone wo n't around another year two , equally good \( almost good \) stuff available make immediate impact san jose seems leaning heavily towards niedermayer reason kariya could go 6th 7th , unless team convince leave school early \( doubt \) cut things stand today draft order 1 \) ottawa \( 60 daigle , , 40 pronger \) 2 \) san jose 80 niedermayer , unless ottawa skips daigle 's open \( depends sharks get deal n't believe draft keep \) 3 \) tampa bay \( whoever ottawa n't take , maybe \) chuq imho von rospach , esd support training \( dal aux \) chuq apple com member , sfwa editor , otherrealms genie mac bigot alink chuq minor league fans minors request medraut apple com \( san jose giants 1 9 \) san francisco giants fans giants request medraut apple com \( stick \? ! \) san jose sharks fans sharks request medraut apple com \( new seat 127 tbd \)
chuq apple com \( chuq von rospach \) subject sharks kingston fired ! ! ! organization go sharks , go giants , inc lines 19 nntp posting host apple com spiegel msd lmsc lockheed com \( mark spiegel \) writes may may back next year , either event sharks pick others wo n't back 's rumors officially released right end season contract expired , n't seen confirmation clear talks sharks doctors n't going make , sharks would sign contract , given problems competing ihl level spring , n't make sense chuq imho von rospach , esd support training \( dal aux \) chuq apple com member , sfwa editor , otherrealms genie mac bigot alink chuq minor league fans minors request medraut apple com \( san jose giants 1 9 \) san francisco giants fans giants request medraut apple com \( stick \? ! \) san jose sharks fans sharks request medraut apple com \( new seat 127 tbd \)
andy bgsu edu \( stuart esrock \) subject bruins organization bowling green state university b g , oh lines 10 joe13 pitt edu \( joseph b stiehm \) writes come boston , hell \? seven wins row , choke \? ah well , another brian sutter team ground dirt intensity regular season burned playoff time yah fuhr awesome far , really 'd think sutter would learned lesson pushing team far regular season stuart esrock bowling green state u bout blues ! ! !
galvint cs nps navy mil \( thomas galvin \) subject camera work televised games organization naval postgraduate school , monterey ca distribution rec lines 27 article 1993apr22 vax5 cit cornell edu vax5 cit cornell edu writes camera work games really sad \? \? ca n't remember many times penguins devils game showed guy \( without puck \) checked corner puck fired goal fact , think even missed one goal completely showing two guys holding corner last time watched football game , n't show going running back turned corner \? \? greg espn trying various things get away follow puck concept hockey games one main problems hockey difficult show everything going happens away puck sport except maybe football iso 's football players shown plays problem course sometimes get something worthwhile , times get burned tom galvin galvint taurus cs nps navy mil
andy bgsu edu \( stuart esrock \) subject joseph blues shut blues 2 0 organization bowling green state university b g , oh lines 22 cleveland freenet edu \( jim \) writes one last point , darryl sutter getting badly coached bob berry darryl gets reminds brian hawks quickly loosing thier focus , n't think blues win 4 never know sutter bash anything since players sure would think would learn something burning teams regular season much intensity regular season earlier posted note brian got thinking read item gee divisions lost home ice advantage getting smoked opening series playoffs kind makes wonder bottom line man great smoking ! ! ! ! ! agreed jim damn sweet , far thing comes close shutting maple laugh fans detroit completely kicked asses far , stick blues providing best playoff far stuart esrock bowling green state u go blues ! ! !
organization american university university computing center mweintr auvm american edu subject playoff consecutive loss record \? lines 20 recent demise chicago \( much delight \) noticed 8 \( \? \) game playoff losing streak \( 4 pens last year , 4 blues \) wondering nhl record consecutive losses , even one i'm pretty sure hawks least 9 game losing streak , since 've lost series since last championship \( whenever \) basically , need something else rag hawks fan friend \) mike , yes rush marillion emerson , lake palmer genesis dream theater mike , aka irc sig quote du mweintr american edu life like scissors paper jedi wave cerf net stone game , none answers american university always right , sometimes washington , dc one neil peart , rush go philadelphia phillies vancouver canucks \( 3 , 13 go \)
alleg edu \( jonathan \) subject lemieux 's getting hart jeez hope ! organization allegheny college article 22apr93 02956996 0062 unbvm1 csd unb ca patrick walker f1hh unb ca writes get hart \? gretzky , million years least year n't played year yzerman , though would nice , n't think 'll get , 's consistent , well known \( thought ! \) mario jesus ! 's bad enough utter word without extremely sick pissed guy 's ramble see hate mario pat walker unb i'm going bother pathetic excuse post mario fan , respect blade hart trophy , guess winning scoring title twenty four days cancer , leading team presidents trophy breaking win streak record process n't even qualify award maybe next year 'll tend games barrasso needs rest realistic , mario earned every one deserves attention gets lose jealous attitude may start enjoying hockey finest maze
atmos washington edu \( neal johnson \) subject belfour roenick , playoff \? article order organization dept atmospheric sciences , university washington lines 8 nntp posting host order atmos washington edu belfour roenick done another disappearing act chips time \? saw looked like defense might carry along way playoffs well held st louis 17 shots game 2 lost looks like maybe keenan \( \) insight
subject ranger fans \? \? \? \? \? kwolfer eagle wesleyan edu organization wesleyan university nntp posting host willet wesleyan edu lines 75 article 1993apr22 alleg edu , alleg edu \( brett ball \) writes article 1993apr22 101356 1 eagle wesleyan edu writes one happy ranger 's hiring keenan 's bad n't hire smith fired nielsen , maybe could babies team made playoffs team needs little fire butts ! ! reading hockey news n't see many ranger fans writing i'm new system big hockey fan long suffering \( 1940 \) ranger fan remember suffering builds character ! ! final questions way team handled last dreadful stretch 1 knowing needed offensive help blueline , n't see mike hurlbut , played pretty well called leetch first went \? 2 \? \? \? \? ! ! ! ! ! joe kocur playing every night \? bob probert tough also play 3 come paul broten relegated street clothes end season least plays heart character , draws penalties plays 110 's ice doghouse reason \? 4 joe \? \? \? \? \? ! ! ! ! enough said ! ranger fans may suffering 're loyal , unlike islander fans show team wins far stanley cup goes think 's one team test pittsburgh 's detroit would entertaining hard fought series mario amazing ! kurt think joe play every night big physical guy , gets fans game big hits \( checks fists \) big advantage get crowd going plus , helps protect players notice fights kocur ice unless seen people start go essa tikkanen , go away kocur steps think big asset , third line , special situation play fast becoming game without goons admit kocur may get fans game surely would rather see broten taking pass kovalev scoring breakaway goal put rangers 3 \( magic \) goals third period , rather seeing kocur take another stupid penalty rangers giving another powerplay goal ! rangers need another top flight center take pressure messier first line nemchinov perfect third line center goes beezer richter \? kurt
subject binghampton rangers playoff games kwolfer eagle wesleyan edu organization wesleyan university nntp posting host willet wesleyan edu lines 5 anyone know msg televise binghampton rangers playoff games even taped replays would nice \?
stamber rainbow ecn purdue edu \( kevin l stamber \) subject pens broadcasters organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 25 article andrew cmu edu , nathan robert peters andrew cmu edu writes rumor pittsburgh going penguins broadcasting change next season according rumor , kbl leadership \( company broadcasts pen 's games \) wants limit loved broadcaster mike lange radio hire cherry broadcast partner would mean paul would fired \( good riddance \) anyone know anything \? lange fun broadcaster listen , pens games would n't without also hear cherry n't high opinions lemieux , ulf , jaromir jagr supposed broadcast games \? believe large number digits paycheck \( would binary \) would help fan ulf ! , jaro , mario nate peters lifetime penguins fan \( even best \) kevin l stamber purdue university top 10 reasons pittsburgh penguins patrick division 3 strong desire get cup back neighborhood eat 'n' park 's always something special cooking !
organization university maine system always fanatical patrick ellis maine maine edu subject buffalo 4 , boston 0 defense ! ! 1993apr21 alchemy chem utoronto ca hsdndev harvard edu bson nutrimat gnu ai mit edu lines 24 i'm personally expecting moog blue played fairly decent \( alright spectacular times \) 1 2 game moog experience blue going , nothing , would happen tie game , goal tender insure keep puck \( least team scores \) blue n't face kind pressure tuesday bruins come storming sure really think series buffalo , boston \( except two bad passes game one \) really n't played bad , believer statistics , know going get puck fuhr sooner later , keep shooting game plan sound need take lead first , control tempo imho pat ellis p go bruins go umaine black bears 42 1 2 number 1 hockey east regulars season champions hockey east tournament champions paul kariya , hobey baker award winner ncaa div 1 hockey tournament champions ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! n e !
yadalle cs ualberta ca \( yadallee dave \) subject oilers sale \? \? nntp posting host cs ualberta ca reply yadallee ersys edmonton ab ca , yadalle cs ualberta ca organization university alberta , edmonton canada lines 67 golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) writes probability oilers going anywhere gerald , look happened stars dallas pocklington chosen moment make last stand moment maximum advantage provincial government months away provincial election moment maximum power convince northlands give better arena deal better purchase price nhl 's new collective agreement players might involve enhanced revenue sharing gerald , alberta election slated 7 june , unless something \? ally goes wrong time ! ! pocklington could end embarassment klein goes ahead pocklington many things stupid one gerald , people still axe grind guy cannot see staying long dictate terms cities pay price edmonton n't people edmonton wo n't budge , trust one edmonton already international airport , surrendered supremacy calgary , next years edmonton going take hard hit government screw beyond manages find way lose hockey team northlands wants continue use oilers subsidize horse racing northlands wo n't budge one board members , bruce campbell however , case , long term financial viability oilers , fact pocklington basically right , regardless owns team , right provoke crisis , team millions dollars losses , becomes lack money n't heard anything , attendance coliseum lowest year hint ! ! hint ! ! remeber said personal vendetta \? sather done job oilers poised competitive soon \( al , one hockey writers canada post oilers season globe mail recently agrees \) gerald , n't blame sather battle pocklington started 1986 got worst pocklington sold gretzky days shake hand pocklington \( use 1982 1983 season \) , days ! ! gerald btw , following , please delete name posting writer dave shariff yadallee \( b sc \( econ math \) \( u alberta 1990 \) \) \( yadalle cs ualberta ca \) god save queen , god bless us ! remember ! jesus saves lives eternal damnation ! newfoundland , keep good old clyde , vote liberal !
ubvmsd cc buffalo edu \( ralph l \) subject leafs favoured organization university buffalo lines 46 news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host ubvmsd cc buffalo edu article 1993apr26 ramsey cs laurentian ca , maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) writes leafs overcame red wings possibly exciting game played yet playoff year potvin solid wendel completely dominated probert gilmour , usual , best player ice claim andreychuk fades playoffs , please take note andreychuk averaging goal game 3 stars andreychuk 2 goals wendel probert probert everyone else todd gill also played excellent game ca n't say enough doug gilmour right , well gilmour brings mind keon previous leaf dynasty predictions far track nyi buffalo leafs la kings leafs nyi final ca n't let pass islanders get past \( assuming isles beat caps , god willing \) , i'm sorry , isles crush leafs flame shields course one asked always interject opinions matters concern go islanders ! ! ! ! ! ! \( 3 , 1 go \) go jets '93 cordially , always , maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca many morons rm little time
robert angelo pleshar rp16 andrew cmu edu subject bernie nicholls man ! organization university libraries e library , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 12 nntp posting host po5 andrew cmu edu reply 1993apr23 virginia edu matthew rush 's starting push edge imho course , holik 's chop barrasso 's neck n't either seems following way beat penguins injure philosophy 's pretty obvious holik 's hitting barrasso accident even apologizing immediately penguins jumped ralph
howarth sbctri sbc com \( david howarth \) subject hawks organization technology resources lines 20 distribution usa nntp posting host mac howarth sbc com article netnews upenn edu , mail sas upenn edu \( luke \) wrote player hawks lost screwed blues lost stevens gave away oates okay , blues must kidding , right \? losing stevens blues got shanahan kept joseph traded oates janney hawks fan got respect names 8 \) lets see , scored game winning overtime goal 4th game \? \? \? luke mail sas upenn eu david howarth howarth sbctri sbc com southwestern bell technology resources inc advanced technology laboratory 1010 pine , rm 635 st louis , mo
odin control utoronto ca \( gary leung \) subject fuhr deserves credit \( sabres sweep \( fuhr 's role \) \) organization university toronto , systems control group lines 46 article shelley u washington edu byron u washington edu \( joseph \) writes article randolin 6 polisci umn edu randolin polisci umn edu \( robert andolina \) writes many people suggested fuhr 's play reason sabres beat bruins fuhr critical factor , would overlook fact sabres finally got scoring people mogilny lafontaine \( khmylev , sweeney , , etc \) indeed , lafontaine played hurt n't score many goals also , team played better defense \( although great \) regular season fuhr deserves lot credit , robert agree also think fuhr 's contribution sabres 's win many team mogilny six goals four games including two goals great comeback final win fuhr left key sabres 's win boston whole team 's strong commitment underdog talent players including mogilny fuhr think grant fuhr deserves credit ! 's true entire sabres team played well , still believe n't grant fuhr , series would tied 2 2 virtually stole games 1 3 sabres games , fuhr stood head give sabres chance win especially game 3 , fuhr made series huge stops third period score tied 2 2 even game 2 sabres 4 0 , score seemed indicate sabres dominated however , n't fuhr , sabres would n't \( 2 0 think \) 2nd period bruins would n't open game \( thereby allowing mogilny score third goal breakaway salt away game \) doubt mind fuhr critical factor victory opinion , neely , oates juneau played well lafontaine , mogilny hawerchuk sabres get extraordinary efforts hannan , sweeney , wood , khmylev \( compared bruins checkers \) however , bruins defense , imo , played better sabres defense \( sabres ken sutton playing regular shift afterall \) difference series fuhr , outplayed andy moog gary go sabres !
phoenix startide ctr columbia edu \( ali lemer \) subject minnesota shame \? organization columbia university center telecommunications research x posted startide ctr columbia edu nntp posting host sol ctr columbia edu lines 43 article constellation ecn uoknor edu hunter uoknor edu \( steve hunter \) writes i'm hockey fan way back , maintain interest best hockey hinterlands \( oklahoma \) i'm hoping get reading move north stars dallas 've impression minnesota one , possibly , hockey state u team moving city texas \? owner greedy , self serving , stars really making profit \? city whoever owned arena price \? opinions , please well , hockey fan , think 's terrible 's one thing say , hey , let 's give hockey team cities n't one ! 's fine 's entirely another say , okay , let 's take team thriving hockey town move ! course , none us ever know real inside story , know , group minneapolis businessmen told green repeatedly would purchase remaining 3600 \( \? \) season tickets get 10 , 000 level green wanted , yet refused every time 's pretty obvious determined get minneapolis cost use season tickets thing excuse fortunate enough get game , fans great ! people playing roller hockey parking lot game , attendance full , whole atmosphere centre terrific minnesota hockey , usa nhl blithely let major league team move away beyond hope get new team soon 0 02 ali ali procrastination lemer gave nhl commissioner gary bettman puck columbia university \( nyc \) spent rest day trying phoenix ctr columbia edu open pat williams , gm , orlando magic kind animals hug hockey player !
nhmas gauss med harvard edu \( mark shneyder 432 4219 \) subject nhl letter \( quite long \) organization hms lines 16 nntp posting host gauss med harvard edu article 1993apr26 sol ctr columbia edu phoenix startide ctr columbia edu \( ali lemer \) writes hey , everyone , hear \? 're fanatics ! cool ! get 1400 acre compound , weapon ammo caches \? wants barbeque \? ali ca n't believe sh like gets attention group playoffs ali , 're moron least could 've waited 'till end playoffs start dumb letter campaign ppv mark
farenebt craft camp clarkson edu \( droopy \) subject ahl playoff results \( concrete \) organization clarkson university lines 29 nntp posting host craft clarkson edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 well , got scores sat 's games ahl playoff scores first round \( home team caps \) games played sat , 4 24 baltimore 3 binghamton 1 rochester 3 utica 2 springfield 4 providence 3 series \( plural status \? \) adirondack defeated cdi , 4 0 springfield defeated providence , 4 2 binghamton tied w baltimore , 2 2 rochester defeated utica , 4 1 st john 's leads moncton , 3 1 cape breton defeated fredericton , 4 1 bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl , ecac boston bruins contact rec sport hockey adirondack red wings , calder cup champs '81 '86 '89 '92 clarkson hockey , ecac tournament champs '66 '91 '93 glens falls high hockey , ny division ii state champs '90 '91 ahl fans join ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu
farenebt craft camp clarkson edu \( droopy \) subject calder cup playoff schedule organization clarkson university lines 61 nntp posting host craft clarkson edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 full 1993 calder cup playoff schedule results home team caps necesary first round springfield indians vs providence bruins gm 1 springfield 3 providence 2 gm 2 springfield 5 providence 4 gm 3 providence 3 springfield 2 gm 4 providence 9 springfield 0 gm 5 springfield 4 providence 2 gm 6 springfield 4 providence 3 \( springfield wins series , 4 2 \) cd islanders vs adirondack red wings gm 1 adirondack 6 cdi 2 gm 2 adirondack 5 cdi 3 gm 3 adirondack 3 cdi 0 gm 4 adirondack 3 cdi 1 \( adirondack wins series , 4 0 \) baltimore skipjacks binghamton rangers gm 1 baltimore 4 binghamton 3 gm 2 binghamton 6 baltimore 2 gm 3 binghamton 8 baltimore 3 gm 4 baltimore 3 binghamton 1 gm 5 4 26 baltimore binghamton gm 6 4 28 binghmaton baltimore gm 7 4 30 baltimore binghamton utica devils vs rochester americans gm 1 utica 3 rochester 2 \( ot \) gm 2 rochester 9 utica 3 gm 3 rochester 6 utica 4 gm 4 rochester 4 utica 3 \( ot \) gm 5 rochester 3 utica 2 \( rochester wins series , 4 1 \) moncton hawks vs st john 's maple leafs gm 1 st john's 4 moncton 2 \( halifax \) gm 2 st john's 3 moncton 2 \( halifax \) gm 3 st john 's 6 moncton 5 gm 4 moncton 5 st john 's 4 \( ot \) gm 5 4 26 moncton vs st john 's halifax gm 6 4 28 st john 's moncton gm 7 4 30 moncton vs st john 's halifax cape breton oilers vs fredericton canadiens gm 1 fredericton 4 cape breton 3 \( 2ot \) gm 2 cape breton 5 fredericton 2 gm 3 cape breton 3 fredericton 0 gm 4 cape breton 6 fredericton 5 \( ot \) gm 5 cape breton bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl , ecac boston bruins contact rec sport hockey adirondack red wings , calder cup champs '81 '86 '89 '92 clarkson hockey , ecac tournament champs '66 '91 '93 glens falls high hockey , ny division ii state champs '90 '91 ahl fans join ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu
etxonss ufsa ericsson se \( staffan axelsson \) subject wc 93 scores standings , april 22 nntp posting host uipc104 ericsson se organization ericsson telecom , stockholm , sweden lines 72 1993 world championships germany group standings \( munich \) group b standings \( dortmund \) gp w l gf ga p gp w l gf ga p canada 3 3 0 0 17 1 16 6 czech republic 3 2 1 0 8 1 7 5 russia 3 2 1 0 12 4 8 5 finland 3 2 1 0 5 1 4 5 sweden 3 2 0 1 8 6 2 4 usa 3 1 2 0 8 3 5 4 italy 3 1 1 1 5 8 3 3 germany 3 2 0 1 11 8 3 4 switzerland 3 0 0 3 0 9 9 0 france 3 0 0 3 4 13 9 0 austria 3 0 0 3 2 16 14 0 norway 3 0 0 3 0 10 10 0 april 18 italy russia 2 2 norway germany 0 6 sweden austria 1 0 usa czech republic 1 1 april 19 canada switzerland 2 0 russia austria 4 2 finland france 2 0 april 20 sweden canada 1 4 czech republic germany 5 0 switzerland italy 0 1 finland usa 1 1 april 21 germany france 5 3 italy sweden 2 6 czech republic norway 2 0 april 22 switzerland russia 0 6 usa france 6 1 austria canada 0 11 norway finland 0 2 april 23 switzerland austria germany finland 20 00 april 24 russia sweden czech republic france 15 30 canada italy usa norway 20 00 april 25 sweden switzerland finland czech republic 15 30 russia canada germany usa 20 00 april 26 austria italy france norway 20 00 playoffs april 27 quarterfinals 2 b 3 15 30 3 b 2 20 00 april 28 quarterfinals 1 b 4 15 30 4 b 1 20 00 april 29 relegation 5 b 6 15 30 6 b 5 20 00 april 30 semifinals 1 b 4 3 b 2 15 30 4 b 1 2 b 3 20 00 may 1 relegation 14 30 bronze medal game 19 00 may 2 final 15 00 \( \( staffan axelsson etxonss ufsa ericsson se \) \) r h contact swedish hockey
etxonss ufsa ericsson se \( staffan axelsson \) subject wc 93 results , april 22 nntp posting host uipc104 ericsson se organization ericsson telecom , stockholm , sweden lines 109 1993 world championships germany group results russia switzerland 6 0 \( 2 0 , 1 0 , 3 0 \) 1st rus 1 0 alexei yashin 1 5 23 rus 2 0 alexei yashin 2 16 45 2nd rus 3 0 1 7 13 3rd rus 4 0 andrei 3 3 47 rus 5 0 2 4 13 rus 6 0 sergei 1 13 50 penalties rus 7 2min 1 game penalty , swi 9 2min referee rob hearn , usa attendance 3 , 500 canada austria 11 0 \( 6 0 , 2 0 , 3 0 \) 1st 1 0 shayne corson 1 9 51 2 0 rod brind'amour 2 10 24 3 0 paul kariya 1 12 42 4 0 gerry galley 1 18 23 5 0 eric lindros 2 19 11 6 0 rod brind'amour 3 19 46 2nd 7 0 eric lindros 3 0 31 8 0 eric lindros 4 8 50 3rd 9 0 brian savage 1 13 37 10 0 brian benning 1 16 26 11 0 geoff sanderson 3 17 55 penalties 2 2min , 2 2min attendance 7 , 500 usa france 6 1 \( 3 1 , 1 0 , 2 0 \) 1st 0 1 richer 1 5 02 usa 1 1 adam burt 1 8 32 usa 2 1 rob gaudreau 1 18 15 usa 3 1 jeff lazaro 1 18 29 2nd usa 4 1 adam burt 2 10 54 3rd usa 5 1 podein 1 8 03 usa 6 1 rob gaudreau 2 16 25 penalties usa 3 2min , 2 2min referee darren , canada attendance 1 , 511 finland norway 2 0 \( 0 0 , 0 0 , 2 0 \) 1st 2nd 3rd fin 1 0 juha riihijarvi 1 4 16 fin 2 0 kari 1 12 37 penalties fin 5 2min , 7 2min referee sven erik sold , sweden attendance 3 , 600 best goal scorers eric lindros 4 rod brind'amour 3 dieter ger 3 andrei rus 3 geoff sanderson 3 rus 2 adam burt usa 2 viacheslav rus 2 jiri dolezal cze 2 mike gartner 2 rob gaudreau usa 2 patrik juhlin swe 2 frank 2 ger 2 jarkko varvio fin 2 alexei yashin rus 2 wc stats fastest goal wc game first face 10 seconds steve larmer , canada 1991 game vs sweden \( ended 3 3 \) boris , ussr 1978 consecutive wc games without loss 47 ussr 1978 85 38 ussr 1963 68 37 canada 1937 49 35 ussr 1985 90 27 canada 1950 54 \( \( staffan axelsson etxonss ufsa ericsson se \) \) r h contact swedish hockey
b hart odin dev macsch com \( bill hart \) subject oilers go hamilton lines 15 reply b hart macsch com organization corporation article 1993apr26 spang camosun bc ca , ua256 freenet victoria bc ca \( tom moffat \) writes oilers move hamilton division play tom moffat victoria b c canada guess , hamilton would put midwest , either winnipeg dallas moving pacific bill b hart macsch com
karim edvard ahmed ka0k andrew cmu edu subject minnesota shame \? organization senior , economics , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 28 nntp posting host po5 andrew cmu edu reply constellation ecn uoknor edu 've impression minnesota one , possibly , hockey state u team moving city texas \? owner greedy , self serving , stars really making profit \? city whoever owned arena price \? norman green claims lost money last three years owned team bought team , seemed kind obvious going deal years red , team started making profit gave impression willing claimed two years ago team needed average 8000 fans per game order pull profit , season team averaged fans , despite ticket prices think team 's play clearly upward trend , leaves could ignore deciding move even offered many concessions demanded , guaranteed season ticket sales , cheap rent two arenas town , etc oh well , guess bottom line green wanted immediate huge returns dallas , n't willing wait another year mn dallas gave green pretty stellar deal play \( although feel minnesota 's quite reasonable \) , also cronies well means , minnesota without nhl team year two bad nhl kea
umturne4 ccu umanitoba ca \( daryl turner \) subject winnipeg vs vancouver nntp posting host gibson cc umanitoba ca organization university manitoba , winnipeg , manitoba , canada lines 85 article 205 unixhub slac stanford edu grogers ravel slac stanford edu \( greg rogers \) writes mkr stud \( \) writes read canucks fan ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! winnipeg going kick butts badly going able sit weeks joke prediction fourth game winnipeg winnipeg 6 vancouver 2 \( 2 0 , 1 2 , 3 0 \) selanne , steen score couple goals ! ! ! winnipeg win stanley cup playoffs jets fanatics ha ha ha normal jets fans pretty good fourth game physical play 've seen first three games posts continued throughout year jets canucks selanne smash bure boards full n't take cue daryl wait 'till make fool \? \? \? i'm going predict anything canucks 3 1 coming back home , i'm going swing around series wrapped tony bravo tony , sick mindless , fanatical , blind faith jets fans could predict end world accurately playoff series admit mindless , , blind faith canucks fan unlike , need vent spleen upon world great team know , confidence , 's enough granted , jets finished season hot , canucks trouble , vancouver built reputation playoff team ask flames fan may win every series , alway fight end 'll admit last year great , combine work ethic past new present , tough beat \( note say would every team meet destroy greatest player playing today \) , like canucks fan , would love see take cup feel good chance make smythe , 50 50 shot detroit \( ca n't see losing st louis \) pittsburgh makes cup , 'd put money \( yes even 're facing canucks \) buffalo , montreal , quebec beat pittsburgh , 'd choose winner detroit take cup oh , one parting note jets fans many times made finals \? 8' \) go canucks greg unfortunately helped taint otherwise brilliant display maclean canucks tied jets tightly thought mailing btw , greg next time , n't fall asleep geography class , 's pretty sad fellow norway spell winnipeg properly guy north america ca n't one thing long vancouver nhl \? many championships \? oh yeah go arena see one , two , six championship banners hanging 3 stanley cup banners , 3 cup banners nhl guide says vancouver cup \( many times town ! \) daryl turner r h contact winnipeg jets internet umturne4 ccu umanitoba ca fidonet 1 348 701 1 348 4 \( please route 348 700 \) tkachuk zhamnov , sel nne , shoots , scores ! jets win cup ! jets win cup ! essensa vezina ! housley norris ! sel nne calder !
admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu \( steve c liu \) subject caps postseason fortunes organization pi club johns hopkins university , baltimore , md , usa lines 17 distribution world expires 5 9 93 nntp posting host jhunix hcf jhu edu summary history repeats okay , caps break golf clubs , anyone history washington futility record playoffs \? remember terry 's first year first year caps finally made third round brian , noticed every year caps got second round years n't make past first round trend \? admiral , hopeless caps fan p still remember 3 ot loss islanders ! ! admiral steve c liu internet address admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu 1993 world champions baltimore orioles \? series yards 1992 1993 stanley cup champions washington capitals bangles greatest female rock band ever existed ! sig brought frungy ! sport kings ! god man , drilling holes head answer ! dr mccoy
hamilton edu \( mary \) subject faq group organization hamilton college clinton , ny distribution na lines 22 could someone please tell access faq group \? i'm relatively new , would like read , although 've seen mentioned , 've yet see posted archived somewhere someone post group regular basis \? , distributed demand \? 'd appreciate help anyone give thanks advance mary p please respond via email articles expire within 24 hours mail system , n't always get chance read everything thanks mary hamilton edu go rangers ! ! ! ! \( next year , course \( \)
chuck mks com \( chuck lownie \) subject leafs vs wings organization mortice kern systems inc , waterloo , ontario , canada lines 18 article hydra gatech edu gtd597a prism gatech edu \( hrivnak \) writes article 1993apr22 mks com chuck mks com \( chuck lownie \) writes potvin way played well kept toronto game last night 5 penalties first period making great saves , end getting second guy gaa 6 00 playoffs , 's played well \? \? \? joke watch games \? \? \? \?
chuck mks com \( chuck lownie \) subject leafs vs wings organization mortice kern systems inc , waterloo , ontario , canada lines 42 article lmarsha cms cc wayne edu lmarsha cms cc wayne edu \( laurie marshall \) writes article 1993apr22 mks com chuck mks com \( chuck lownie \) writes last nights game toronto received five penalties , detroit none game watching \? n't see third period wings 2 penalties called delayed penalty \? leafs 2 man advantage minute 1 man advantage another minute two leafs still could n't score wonder leafs scored powerplay goal , according , never powerplay detroit paper today , said 40 penalties called last night 's game 're saying detroit none penalties \? i'm guessing watched first period leafs get alot penalties period wings n't get many \( n't looked box scores yet \) , ref made third period laurie marshall wayne state university detroit , michigan go wings ! ! ! apologies typo meant wings 5 power plays first period leafs none well , point n't refs biased , calling lot penalties , works benefit wings ref call whole bunch penalties one team calling bunch make takes lot away could great game
vms huji ac il subject switzerland distribution world organization hebrew university jerusalem lines 11 happen swiss team \? last year reached semi final 3 matches points even goals ! ! 0 1 italy seems lost hope overrun 0 6 russian team seems work hard relegated b level anybody know wc qualification olympic games '94 teams already qualified daniel
reiniger ug cs dal ca \( darren reiniger \) subject cbc canadian espn nntp posting host ug cs dal ca organization math , stats cs , dalhousie university , halifax , ns , canada lines 36 article 1993apr24 1 uwovax uwo ca 35002 2765 uwovax uwo ca writes hooray , hear tsn jets game , selanne getting hat trick ! course , country \( read ontario ! \) could n't see game , van wpg series far , beloved cbc figures one cares series \( looked pretty far monday wednesday nights , cbc could shown toronto detroit game , done news , picked winnipeg vancouver n't tonight \? guessed , toronto detroit , news \( end jets game \) , calgary la , 's hockey night canada , ca n't see one two series two canadian teams \? much ask \? paul 35002 2765 uwovax uwo ca 'd like echo sentiments worst coverage ever remember seeing cbc soon game ends , count 30 , time , 've signed air post game interviews , updating late scores , nothin' tsn really putting cbc shame hope later round coverage improves , mean , really wants see cbc news instead hockey 02 , darren darren reiniger reiniger ug cs dal ca arishem ac dal ca centre marine geology , dalhousie university , halifax , n , canada people wonder generation going remind came first place
dchhabra stpl ists ca \( deepak chhabra \) subject stewart homered wings ! ! nntp posting host stpl ists ca organization solar terresterial physics laboratory , ists lines 59 article andy bgsu edu m248 100 bgsu edu andy bgsu edu \( ryan \) writes \( roger maynard \) wrote leafs overcame red wings possibly exciting game played yet playoff year perhaps exciting game played yet seen us watch teams around league interest objectivity , nowhere near exciting game paul stewart called single worst game 've seen year 's major obvious , n't dispute however , chaisson 's penalty n't even penalty , let alone major game misconduct 5 minute game misc call high sticking blood penalty chaisson barely touched poor , hit dasher bled n't mean penalty unfortunately , instant replay used hits first , immediately thought 5 game hit looked much severe intent injure perspective seeing replay , 'd say deserved 2 4 minutes boarding \( careless way slice \) stewart replay , think chaisson would gotten 5 game second period , behind potvin , probert puck , going get front , ! could n't believe call call bullshit , agree admire stewart letting go , probert looked saying hell penalty \? 've never seen probert whine either \( n't need \) , decides put wendel boards , 's probably gone , right \? n't remember \( leafs \) touched puck racine 's shot towards end game \( 43 2 seconds left \) , stewart called play , last touched detroit everybody garden , including linesmen knew yzerman protested , stewart laughed , really homered wings also bullshit , replay rouse , btw i'm really pissed linesmen n't correct call either 's b officials refuse admit made mistake , comes , wings played like shit yes calls describe difference detroit loss picked leafs win game 3 emotion , wings excuses game 4 superior team call pissed anderson getting 4 putting stick somebody 's eye dangerous stick seen long time , everybody damn league knows 's asshole comes stickwork four lousy minutes bullshit call murray send tape wing hammer living shit dchhabra stpl ists ca
white venus cc hollandc pe ca \( take baby ! \) subject canada 5 0 preliminary round world news software vax vms vnews 1 41 organization holland college charlottetown pei lines 17 team canada defeated russia 3 1 finish round unbeaten 5 0 scoring canadians kevin dineen flyers , eric lindros also flyers paul maine black bears put quite show worlds sure drafted top 3 summer nhl entry draft canada defeated italy 11 2 austria 11 0 meeting russians sunday canadians face finland quarter finals tuesday kevin white white cc hollandc pe ca holland college pei canada
jake rambler eng sun com \( jason cockroft \) subject leafs happened \? organization sun microsystems , inc lines 21 distribution world reply jake rambler eng sun com nntp posting host rambler eng sun com leafs turn around \? \? \? could n't get leaf games weekend ca leaf defense wise overnight \? leafs get slot fluke goals goalie duel \? wings turn jets muscle \? gives \? caught game 1 satellite figured leafs washed major turnaround predicted , , happen \? wing leaf perspectives welcomed ! jake
mlindroos finabo abo fi \( marcus lindroos inf \) subject caps moving \? \? \? \? \? reply berger chaos cs brandeis edu 's message thu , 22 apr 1993 20 57 10 gmt organization abo akademi university , finland x news reader vms news 1 24 lines 26 berger chaos cs brandeis edu berger chaos cs brandeis edu writes 've heard rumors recently reliable sources abe , moron owns washington capitals looking move team season next milwaukee mentioned team 's potential destination person told strongly affiliated nhl extremely accurate past news sort anyone know heard anything sort \? baltimore 's ahl team gone , would leave area echl franchise baltimore good thanks david ! ! ! dc baltimore one top media markets \( thing nhl seems care days \) , 've far better nba bullets gate last five years team perennial contender fan support good excellent move city 's five times smaller many teams pro sports n't get david marcu
golf phoenix oulu fi \( jouko kylmaoja \) subject finland norway wc organization university oulu , finland x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 12 finns best last night played norway world champs two periods score still 0 0 game quite much similar first game finland played \( france \) norwegian goalie good bit lucky , third period juha scored 1 0 rebound , time around 5 mins second goal scored kari , shot straight faceoff behind goalie saku koivu , 18 year old center got first point tournament saku koivu played well game awarded best player game prize despite fact quite small size handles puck well fast skater think hear guy future
maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) subject nhl letter \( quite long \) organization dept computer science , laurentian university , sudbury , lines 74 netcom com catcher netcom com \( paul w francisco \) writes said , letter addressed bettman post \( , though pretty much content , entirely different entity \) addressed puts letter mail doubt say figure wanted let people see since topic interests lot folks 's entirely different purpose sending letter bettman damn good thing post since claims represent people rec sport hockey unfortunately largest computer networks world phrase definition internet , group whole claims represent sole purpose mentioning net , steve gallichio already pointed , lend weight points association internet reason mention internet misrepresentation internet private corporation alison would leaving wide open kinds civil suits business whether large , large compared say , number folks r h sending letter thank changing names , least point letter petition claiming represent large proportion rec sport hockey users , implication , significant number internet users 65 names way considered large proportion rec sport hockey , way counting actual readership , accessible hundreds thousands people 65 persons fly 's fart curiosity thought 'd look official definition large dictionary reads large 1 usual power , capacity , scope 2 exceeding things like kind quantity size gee looked large dictionary \? next \? two syllable words \? idea many letters bettman may gotten issue many people may signed 65 people may , thereby definition 2 would also wager geographical range signatures quite large , would give large scope let suggest place likely envy magnitude 65 looking ways beef iq scores might impressed size list names would impressed unless large \? said , might impressed size list names would considerably larger even definition account original context lifted sentence personally n't know whether agree letter mixed emotions like names , n't think make difficult learn game , might shred validity change well hell point \? n't really know opinion hockey issue know n't like \? cordially , always , maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca many morons rm little time
anna matyas am2x andrew cmu edu subject pens fans reactions organization h ss dean 's office , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 41 1993apr22 sei cmu edu nntp posting host po3 andrew cmu edu reply 1993apr22 sei cmu edu susan dart writes amongst fans seems inner calm 've never experienced year pens players fans much confidence team year 're every game saving energy stanley cup 's good way put 's quiet confidence n't feel like defend team anymore devils puzzle long one teams always dreaded playing n't quite used still usually play us pretty tough ca n't figure least last night mounted attack 2 watching devils players interviewed , could see faces eyes , really n't confidence left asked beat pens act though know 's hopeless task bernie nichols interviewed game 2 late news shaking head disbelief barrasso , saying tommy like another defenseman difficult playing got far away look face , voice started trailing said , n't right n't fair tried muster smile i'm really impressed bowman 's coaching tactics 's answer every move brooks thrown pens far coaching goes , pens islanders match pretty good one guy feel sorry far chris terreri i'm sure tom barrasso knows feels long tommy would look teammate sight terreri 's teammates really left cold first two games mom
subject flames final stats playoff news caldwell8102 mtroyal ab ca organization mount royal college , calgary , alberta lines 118 news first time season , flames injury free player remaining limp center carey wilson , even healthy , major part team trent yawney score goal season last regular season game san jose first year game , also scored goals game 1 game 2 los angeles thoughts game 1 flames played horribly dropping first game series los angeles 6 3 sunday afternoon seemed interested throwing big hits scoring goals physically dominated kings , area dominated game plan rush net try take advantage young , inexperienced l defence shaky kings goaltending , plans fell flames conducted steady march penalty box stupid theoren fleury taking five minute major game misconduct slamming warren rychel 's face dasher rychel knees goaltender mike vernon played well could really faulted loss , despite well publicized poor record afternoon games got little support defence clearing front net sweeping away rebounds fact , marty mcsorley 's goal actually went chris dahlquist 's skate front net thoughts game 2 flames came back strong second game , evidently aware potentially fatal consequences losing first two games home ice first period fairly even , edge going kings calgary came strong second period simply dominated kings , scoring five goals take lead never en route 9 4 win deciding factors game special teams calgary dominated game 1 , able make better use game first one calgary also went 3 5 powerplay l went 1 8 gave shorthanded goal joel otto l 's powerplay goal also came late game outcome already decided powerplay failed needed , 1st 2nd periods flames lost rw greg paslawski suspected shoulder injury leveled alexei zhitnik right scoring calgary 's 7th goal charlie huddy left game kings groin injury game marred stupidity last minute first , craig berube calgary took five minute major fighting plus game misconduct went tony granato apparent reason granato drew minor strange reason \( perhaps \) followed 30 seconds later warren rychel drawing major , minor , game misconduct hitting frank musil face stick fight musil got fighting major strange reason hardy yawney went toe toe got double minors \( thought musil amounted fighting , yawney hardy throwing punches roughing \? 's guy \) upcoming games friday april 23 , l sunday april 25 , l tuesday april 27 , home l thursday april 29 , l \( necessary \) saturday may 1 , home l \( necessary \) injuries c carey wilson , recurring knee injuries \( dec 10 \) 1992 93 calgary flames final regular season statistics pos name gp g pts pim 14 rw theoren fleury 83 34 66 100 14 88 26 c robert reichel 80 40 48 88 25 54 20 gary suter 81 23 58 81 1 112 10 lw gary roberts 58 38 41 79 32 172 25 c joe nieuwendyk 79 38 37 75 9 52 42 rw sergei makarov 71 18 39 57 0 40 2 al macinnis 50 11 43 54 15 61 29 c joel otto 75 19 33 54 2 150 28 lw paul ranheim 83 21 22 43 4 26 23 rw greg paslawski 73 18 24 42 3 12 22 rw ron stern 70 10 15 25 4 207 15 lw brent ashton 58 10 13 23 11 52 11 lw chris lindberg 62 9 12 21 3 18 34 roger johansson 77 4 16 20 13 62 18 trent yawney 63 1 16 17 9 67 3 frank musil 80 6 10 16 28 131 39 c brian skrudland 39 7 7 14 4 65 16 lw craig berube 77 4 8 12 6 209 7 michel petit 35 3 9 12 5 54 4 kevin dahl 61 2 9 11 9 56 33 c carey wilson \( \) 22 4 7 11 10 8 5 chris dahlquist 74 3 7 10 0 66 21 alexander 27 3 4 7 6 19 19 rw todd 15 2 3 5 4 22 12 lw paul 27 2 3 5 2 41 35 g jeff reese 26 0 4 4 0 4 6 greg smyth 35 1 2 3 2 95 30 g mike vernon 64 0 2 2 0 42 27 rw thomas 6 0 2 2 0 0 \? \? c shawn 1 0 0 0 0 2 \? \? lw patrick lebeau 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 g andrei trefilov 1 0 0 0 0 2 name gp min gaa w l en ga sa save 30 mike vernon 64 3732 3 27 29 26 9 4 2 203 888 35 jeff reese 26 1311 3 26 14 4 1 0 1 71 631 889 1 andrei trefilov 1 65 4 62 0 0 1 0 0 5 39 872 team totals 84 3 30 43 30 11 4 3 283 886
maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) subject oiler 's rumour team moving \? press conference next week organization dept computer science , laurentian university , sudbury , lines 58 1993apr26 alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) writes 's stopping pocklington going bank borrowing 41 million dollars pay treasury branch loans reading according recent tsn report peter puck paying interest treasury branch loans 's lot green somewhere pocklington business gross revenues 500 million per year n't think would much problem borrowing visa pay mastercard wanted , according tsn , virtually everything peter puck already course ca n't really sure pocklington point maximum advantage right basically right northlands \( creature city edmonton \) must give better deal era escalating salaries northlands city much eighties oilers wealth generated oilers success shared viability small market teams radically changed space couple years , oilers remain viable competitive , need much revenue stream concessions , parking , building advertising every professional sports franchise north america fair agreement shared wealth northlands sucking blood oilers franchise oiler rationale regarding player contracts deal deal sather spouted repeatedly contract northlands 1999 deal deal perhaps included income received sale assets \( players gretzky \) income received expansion fees revenues would n't losing money admitted pulling money oiler franchise put businesses oilers paid several times coliseum cost build , bring edmonton prestige recognition throughout world essentially nickel dime oilers northlands use revenue sucked oilers subsidize horse racing operations insanity think pocklington received ample provincial ca n't really blame going municipal certainly entitled pocklington sucked revenue oilers order prop failing business interests pocklington trusted doubt much oiler team ever make playoffs pocklington 's soon player shows competent expects paid accordingly shipped younger players draft picks cordially , always , maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca many morons rm little time
subject another travesty joe louis caldwell8102 mtroyal ab ca organization mount royal college , calgary , alberta lines 13 \( detroit , april 21 \) knowledgable observers watched shock detroit red wings beat best goaltender world six times en route another easy victory best team nhl best goaltender world , felix potvin , six bad number surrendered six goals collected six minutes penalties reponse goon tactics employed inferior red wings team alan p told would happen , roger n't \? love
subject nords 3 habs 2 robbed ! ! caldwell8102 mtroyal ab ca organization mount royal college , calgary , alberta lines 21 article 18apr93 vm1 mcgill ca jbe5 jbe5 musicb mcgill ca writes aargh ! paul stewart worst biased ref presently nhl called total 4 penalties habs one nordiques penalty came stewart , ex nordique , looking call penalties habs letting nords get away murder robbed ! ! ! ! powerplay bad montreal 's , 'd thanking stewart calling penalties possible quebec 's powerplay lethal advantage penalty filled game clean superior powerplay montreal really lost game \( game 2 \) patrick roy well way another one trademark awful playoffs man truly overrated quebec scored six goals roy four , perhaps five , quite alan
subject wc 93 results , april 18 caldwell8102 mtroyal ab ca organization mount royal college , calgary , alberta lines 19 article access digex net , steveg cadkey com \( steve gallichio \) writes policy regarding players minor league playoffs versus wc \? know rangers holding back kovalev , zubov , andersson binghamton , also know whalers wanted michael nylander play springfield , nylander wanted play sweden whalers allowed nhl decide , nhl chose wcs differ rangers oilers \? whalers go league , could forced nylander play springfield \? long player contract organization , obligated play organization tells play gives permission play rangers certainly within rights force zubov andersson report binghampton certainly reflect lack class part ranger organization , however binghampton win calder cup really important keeping players happy \? alan
subject nhl team captains caldwell8102 mtroyal ab ca organization mount royal college , calgary , alberta lines 10 , subject , captain ever traded , resigned , striped title season \? team captain trivia would appreciated brad captain flames traded detroit following 1989 90 season season though 's countless examples captains traded , i'm sure alan
maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) subject nhl letter roger 's response organization dept computer science , laurentian university , sudbury , lines 20 1993apr26 sol ctr columbia edu phoenix startide ctr columbia edu \( ali lemer \) writes gee , coincidence n't share views perhaps 's name list accompany letter ! maybe write disclaimer end mr bettman , roger maynard agree letter ! know 'd worried , otherwise ! would n't put name bottom simply appended standard disclaimer opinions expressed petition way claim represent views either rec sport hockey internet whole surely seen disclaimers appended postings many work companies post net disclaimers , clever though may , reason cordially , always , maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca many morons rm little time
athena qualcomm com \( ray \) subject 's roger \? nntp posting host athena qualcomm com organization qualcomm , inc , san diego , ca lines 8 speaking roger ilk , whatever happened good ol' \? kill file since last year 's playoffs 've moved new news reader n't kill files , find 's gone must admit , however , unlike , roger seems know something game long subject n't touch leafs ray qualcomm com
maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) subject nhl letter roger 's response organization dept computer science , laurentian university , sudbury , lines 38 netcom com catcher netcom com \( paul w francisco \) writes would n't say letter clearly implies representation views group belong represents subset \( n't belong \) larger group \( , n't moderated group \) bet would n't one belonging moderated group moderated retentive little like look , several ways state opposing viewpoint three come mind follows hardly need presume lecture communicate points view posting made second subject nhl letter yet communicate opinion matter instead content flaming 3 \) say directly result result little busy bodies like take advantage perceived opportunity post rules others live realize anything say , certainly , used well using means going post something significance means go ahead insist otherwise n't go back sleep whatever cordially , always , maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca many morons rm little time
neath brazil psych purdue edu \( ian neath \) subject blues chicago organization purdue university lines 25 andy bgsu edu \( stuart esrock \) writes 2 \) hitting hawks tried blues could instead , blues matched hawks hit hit shit game 4 scud line , shanahan , butcher , zombo particularly took turns bashing favorite targets like chelios 3 \) skating hawks tried blues , could either nelson emerson finally showed skated circles around flat chicago defense hedican , felsner , ron wilson others also proved old cement skaters like goulet keith brown , blues could lap chicago 400 relay race agree 2 wrong 3 fact , point hawks way matched blues quit trying instead tried blues scored took lead bad game 4 took stupid penalties hawks skated , blues took control ian neath four kinds people world neath psych purdue edu , fools , morons lunatics u eco
lor cbnewsk cb att com \( edward lor \) subject caps postseason fortunes organization lines 66 article jhunix hcf jhu edu admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu \( steve c liu \) writes okay , caps break golf clubs , anyone history washington futility record playoffs \? remember terry 's first year first year caps finally made third round brian , noticed every year caps got second round years n't make past first round trend \? trend caps done five games , saves us caps fans lot pain mean , would painful caps 3 1 , watching need one win clinch series many times done history \? 1985 2 0 five game series isles , lost 3 straight 1987 3 1 isles , lost 3 straight 1992 3 1 pens , lost 3 straight words , clinch 3 games go , pitiful 2 9 , lone wins 1 \) sweep philly 1984 2 \) 1990 win rangers patrick finals , time managed get division actually , saturday 's blown lead n't anything new know caps famous lead blowers crucial playoff games examples 1 \) game 4 isles , 1985 , led 4 2 two , lead series 2 1 , gave 4 goals 3rd period , including game winning goal last minute goal , bobby carpenter botched penalty shot series tied 2 2 , lost game 5 days later 2 \) game 4 rangers , 1986 , led series 2 1 , led 2 3rd period , blew lost game ot three consecutive games 3 \) game 6 , 1992 , led series 3 2 , led 2 2nd period blew series 4 \) game 3 isles , 1993 , series tied 1 1 , led 2 2 blew 5 \) game 4 isles , 1993 , series 2 1 , led 3 2nd period blew leading 3 game 4 , said blew lead , series lost islanders believe come back matter score still waiting cap goalie carry team , completely shut opposition hanging dear lives crucial game admiral , hopeless caps fan p still remember 3 ot loss islanders ! ! well , teams teams n't caps frustrated year year islanders , thinking wait potvin bossy trottier smith retire well , retired \( even though trottier still able haunt caps pens uniform \) , yet another generation islanders still thing well , guess nothing players edward lor lor cbnewsk att com
howarth sbctri sbc com \( david howarth \) subject winnipeg vs vancouver organization technology resources lines 21 distribution world nntp posting host mac howarth sbc com article 205 unixhub slac stanford edu , grogers ravel slac stanford edu \( greg rogers \) wrote feel good chance make smythe , 50 50 shot detroit \( ca n't see losing st louis \) gee , lost st louis twice year maybe eyes checked 8 \) go canucks greg go blues rodney team get respect except chicago david howarth howarth sbctri sbc com southwestern bell technology resources inc advanced technology laboratory 1010 pine , rm 635 st louis , mo
howarth sbctri sbc com \( david howarth \) subject maybe next year hawks organization technology resources lines 14 distribution world nntp posting host mac howarth sbc com article 1993apr26 vax cns muskingum edu , jbrown vax cns muskingum edu wrote belfour played well , hardly saw offense hawk want know roenick far tell , right next bassen ! n't guys love people like come woodwork 8 \) david howarth howarth sbctri sbc com southwestern bell technology resources inc advanced technology laboratory 1010 pine , rm 635 st louis , mo
ucs ualberta ca \( papp denis \) subject regular season 93 94 pool summary pool nntp posting host ucs ualberta ca organization university alberta , edmonton canada lines 61 1993 1994 nhl hockey pool denis papp chris rules pick 17 players \( 3 lw , 3 c , 3 rw , 3 ld , 3 rd , 2 goalies \) may pick 17 players team points players follows 1 point per goal 1 point per assist 1 point per 10 pim points goalies follows 2 points per win 1 point per tie 1 point per assist 1 point per 5 pim 2 points per shutout 100 points per goal entries entries sent \( mail ascii text file \) chris denis papp hard wired bbs \( 434 \) due date entries first day regular season play , entries accepted \( unless slightly late case , small penalty applied team \) internet users send email ucs ualberta ca prizes prizes yet considered could range nothing free time hard wired bbs even something else \( suggestions please feel free put two cents worth \) one idea get whoever willing submit equal amount money , go prize money prize money go top team submitted prize pool list people submit money posted , well didnt done way cost cost absolutely nothing ! ! ! absolutely fee pool note questions , please feel free send denis papp \( chris \) players positions \( ie brett hull right wing \) decided year book using , know certain players position , completely sure position plays , ask 'll tell great time , call hard wired bbs \( 403 \) 434 \( location pool standings displayed \) internet users contact denis papp , email \( ucs ualberta ca \) standings distributed email well
sclark epas utoronto ca \( susan clark \) subject leafs happened \? organization university toronto epas nntp posting host epas utoronto ca lines 40 hi guys happened \? 1 potvin n't let six goals 2 wendel andreychuk woke 3 home ice lots yelling gardens gave leafs emotional edge 4 refs calls \( especially last night \) tended favour leafs couple comments 1 gilmour guy n't one three stars n't mean leading team someone posted playoff point total 's something like fifth sixth place plus , walked away cup \( given points three star selection \) regular season 2 officiating 've heard gripes ends one emotions high series rivalry one stronger ones know agree officiating last night pro leaf general \( except whoever missed slash gilmour 's hand \) 3 general still think detroit one better chances vs pittsburgh \( though think leafs would better blues well made division \) problem , like teams , though i'm supporting leafs underdog principle way gilmour tiring lot like bob probert playing aggressive hockey way i'm sort expert , claim like watching good matchup tee hee hee ooops ! susan
maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) subject hart trophy stuff organization dept computer science , laurentian university , sudbury , lines 31 1993apr26 adobe com snichols adobe com \( sherri nichols \) writes article 1993apr24 mtroyal ab ca caldwell8102 mtroyal ab ca writes hart trophy goes player valuable team , best player league arguement really worthless personally , always thought valuable team silly best player league penalized plays team good players \? lesser player picked solely 's best player weak team \? would n't weaker team helped even best player league \? n't presence best player league make players team look better , \? hart trophy awarded time people think terms best player , rather terms valuable team valuable team , , considered synonymous best talking time honour attitude , measurable skills , important assets player brought team , league sport onslaught professionalism clearly formerly foremost peacetime pursuit glory hart trophy prize honour cordially , always , maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca many morons rm little time
uxa cso uiuc edu \( world jason \) subject blues sweep hawks keywords blues , hull , janney , joseph , hawks , belfour organization university illinois urbana lines 27 first congratulate blues victory , think must realized primary reason blues able win curtis joseph gets hot , little opposing team joseph given entire city st louis , otherwise would probably game 6 scheduled game sunday blues caught breaks , without doubt one referee constantly watching blackhawks , looking reasons give penalties second , blues first goal resulted puck hit linesman blackhawks attempted clear linesman , shot brett \( redirect anything \) hull redirect another st goals , belfour tripped behind went make save someone n't belong crease , means st louis player finally , overtime goal caused someone kept belfour getting back crease goalie , way stop shot congratulate st louis beating hawks shame see bryan murray finally advance campbell conference finals joseph wo n't able stop powerful red wing attack world jason mail uiuc edu known throughout world christ , know ai n't easy , rights reserved , enhanced know hard , way things come spinning turn 're gonna crucify
mmb lamar colostate edu \( michael burger \) subject team pool standings nntp posting host lamar acns colostate edu organization colorado state university , fort collins , co 80523 lines 55 standings reflecting 2 completed series round 1 participant points final 4 1 roland behunin 5 cal 6 que 7 que 7 dave wessels 5 van 7 pit 6 pit 5 3 barfly 0 tor 6 bos 7 tor 6 dean 's 0 det 5 pit 5 pit 7 oz 0 lak 6 bos 6 lak 6 garry 0 tor 6 bos 6 bos 4 brian bergman 0 det 6 pit 6 det 6 mopar muscle men 0 chi 5 pit 6 pit 5 bh 's last place picks 0 chi 5 pit 6 pit 5 milton keynes kings 0 det 6 pit 5 pit 5 sam dogs 0 det 6 pit 5 pit 5 ye ding 0 det 6 pit 5 pit 6 tampere stars 0 chi 6 pit 6 pit 6 mighty 0 chi 6 bos 6 bos 6 homesick hawaiian 0 van 7 pit 6 pit 5 killer kings 0 chi 6 6 chi 6 0 det 5 pit 5 pit 5 ottawa 0 tor 5 pit 6 tor 6 andrew kirk 0 tor 6 pit 6 pit 5 muller n walker 0 det 6 pit 6 pit 6 excalibur 0 det 6 pit 4 pit 6 rednecks hockey hell 0 det 7 bos 5 bos 5 rangers 1940 0 chi 6 pit 7 pit 6 jeff phelps 0 det 6 pit 6 pit 5 arctic circles 0 det 6 pit 6 pit 4 sludge 0 det 6 pit 6 det 6 logistician 0 det 6 pit 6 det 7 hillside raiders 0 chi 6 bos 6 bos 7 danielle 0 chi 5 que 7 que 7 stars 0 chi 6 bos 7 bos 6 0 det 5 pit 5 pit 5 gilles carmel 0 chi 6 pit 7 pit 7 pasi fr nti 0 lak 7 pit 5 pit 6 evan pritchard 0 van 6 pit 6 pit 5 skriko wolves 0 det 7 pit 5 pit 5 rangers blow 0 cal 7 pit 6 pit 4 sean 0 det 5 pit 5 pit 6 schott shooters 0 chi 6 pit 5 pit 5 gary shiff 0 tor 4 pit 6 pit 4 mike burger 0 det 7 pit 6 det 7 darse 0 det 6 pit 6 pit 6 mike burger canada includes , quebec , ontario , mmb lamar colostate edu maritimes , , florida beginning computing ta stud four months year 500 students served royal canadian air farce university michigan 1990 colorado state university 199 \?
se \( peter sj str \) subject wc finland organization lulea university computer society lines 13 1993apr25 math ucla edu oak math ucla edu \( david stein \) writes jarkko writes disaster ! finland beaten czech 1 3 \( 0 0 , 1 1 , 0 2 \) finland 4th pool b certainly meet canada quarter final wednesday 28th look situation positively finns kick canada ! \) last world cup eventually lost tp sweden final ! peter
subject wings news playoff thoughts kwolfer eagle wesleyan edu organization wesleyan university nntp posting host willet wesleyan edu lines 53 article 1993apr23 mtu edu , mtu edu \( smith \) writes n't think 's shown 's good enough carry detroit cup team may good enough reach finals , cheveldae achilles heel must goaltending playoffs , cheveldae looks like 2nd 3rd \( probably guess n't know many 2nd 3rd string goalies could post 30 wins season chevy done past two seasons playing behind defense exactly best league 34 wins year toronto look vincent stats think starting , take look teams played \( teams like san jose , ottawa , tb \) nhl goalie could post decent record playing teams like night night \) look detroit management remedy situation offseason really n't see happening n't think cheveldae could job would traded somebody year , wait next year goalies available year hey , may wrong , watching kick rebound rebound high slot , n't think carry tough games \( e toronto \) better kick rebounds let goals st louis gets past chicago , watch joseph carry blues past otherwise vastly superior red wings club joseph hot , wings scored six goals games far toronto , one leagues best defenses guess end playing norris title 'll see happens dr devils advocate women guns n't mix ubvms cc buffalo edu acsu buffalo edu mark arm wings '93 , hopefully '94 far cheveldae concerned , decent goalie logical trade offseason would detroit ny rangers i'm sure beezer would traded would enjoy opportunity go back roots detroit would valuable asset wings perhaps rangers could get zombo return \? beezer got good years opportunity get fresh start would play
jack petrilli rose com \( jack petrilli \) subject hawks lose \( yawn \) x gated usenet rosemail gateway \( v1 70 \) organization rose media inc , toronto , ontario lines 16 april 25 , maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) wrote look leafs , led healthy doug gilmour confidence restored felix potvin blues 6 leafs 3 games wings give joseph extra days pass ha ! roger dodger back ! \( bandwagon , \) jack please tell n't get message rosereader 2 10 entered rose rosemail 2 10 rosenet usenet gateway rose media 416 733 2285
vergolin euler lbs msu edu \( david vergolini \) subject montreal quebec organization michigan state university lines 18 nntp posting host euler lbs msu edu summary montreal wins game 3 , without controversy keywords montreal wins game get back series anyone see montreal quebec game yesterday \? tight right last second third period overtime roy hextall played like gods ok , montreal ! deserved getting first goal overtime waved puck hit high stick second goal overtime also replayed , could tell montreal player kicked puck definitely directed stick anyways , montreal back series dave vergolini michigan state university vergolin euler lbs msu edu
subject bruins fans \? \? \? kwolfer eagle wesleyan edu organization wesleyan university nntp posting host willet wesleyan edu lines 26 article 93113 psuvm psu edu , robbie po rap115 psuvm psu edu writes i'm wondering bruins fans \? \? \? mean woofed 1 , 000 , 000 posts regular season saying team going kick everyone 's playoffs win stanley cup see nothing wrong little ranting raving , i'm curious boston faithful stopped posting mean n't even see one little boston fan post , 'cept bruins fans n't cocky well , maybe 're golf course something , n't know , 'd sure like see bruins fans \) robbie po 1993 's streakers comes naturally ! patrick division semi 's pgh penguins see , wait penguins 4 , devils 3 1991 , 1992 stanley possibility , n't see penguins lead , 3 0 cup champions \) strong resemblance dg '89 middle connecticut plenty bruin fans , many let know uncertain terms rangers stretch think bruins exact thing rangers , 're playing tight ! ! 's responsibility check mogilny \? gotten number quality shots goal many rebounds cleared b 's defense 's bad b 's might get opportunity play pittsburgh would really enjoy seeing ulfie get beat neely hate ulfie , would love team ! !
andrew idacom hp com \( andrew scott \) subject usenet hockey draft winning team \( regular season \) organization idacom , division hewlett packard lines 78 asked post team log year 's winning team regular season draft 'tis begin dave wessels reading team database log team log name team points value bought week sold week trevor linden van 72 72 0 78 8 pre 70 4 10 cliff ronning van 85 85 0 74 6 pre 97 8 6 robert reichel cgy 88 88 0 58 9 pre 51 4 8 pat verbeek hfd 82 82 0 63 0 pre 64 3 7 pat falloon sj 28 28 0 62 7 pre 46 8 7 john maclean nj 48 48 0 55 0 pre 27 5 7 eric lindros phi 75 75 0 55 0 pre 105 0 6 rick tocchet pit 109 109 0 81 2 pre 106 9 9 greg adams van 56 56 0 63 0 pre 93 8 8 mike ricci que 78 78 0 60 3 pre 79 8 6 joe juneau bos 102 102 0 55 0 pre 110 9 6 kevin hatcher wsh 79 79 0 57 4 pre 54 6 6 teemu selanne wpg 132 132 0 55 0 pre 109 2 6 pavel bure van 110 110 0 77 5 pre 108 9 8 dixon ward van 52 52 0 55 0 pre 61 2 7 russ courtnall min 79 79 0 60 7 6 84 6 14 darren turcotte nyr 53 53 0 60 7 6 72 1 14 christian ruuttu chi 54 54 0 61 9 6 52 2 13 petr nedved van 71 71 0 59 3 6 84 5 12 petr klima edm 48 48 0 65 3 6 tony granato la 82 82 0 56 0 6 75 6 12 steve duchesne que 82 82 0 88 7 6 92 2 13 alexander mogilny buf 127 127 0 103 8 6 118 8 14 ray sheppard det 66 66 0 55 0 7 63 0 15 steve larmer chi 70 70 0 64 9 7 79 7 17 vincent damphousse mtl 97 97 0 64 9 7 94 5 15 tony amonte nyr 76 76 0 63 0 7 63 0 16 brendan shanahan stl 94 94 0 55 0 8 corey millen la 39 39 0 55 0 8 48 9 16 johan garpenlov sj 66 66 0 55 0 8 55 9 15 kelly kisio sj 78 78 0 63 0 8 72 3 15 pat elynuik wsh 57 57 0 57 0 9 56 7 16 benoit hogue nyi 75 75 0 61 6 10 74 3 20 pat flatley nyi 60 60 0 55 0 11 59 9 18 rod brind'amour phi 86 86 0 74 1 12 81 0 19 michal pivonka wsh 74 74 0 55 0 12 joe mullen pit 70 70 0 55 0 12 john cullen tor 50 50 0 55 0 13 55 7 19 stephane richer nj 73 73 0 55 0 13 61 8 19 jeff norton nyi 50 50 0 64 0 14 56 3 20 glenn anderson tor 65 65 0 55 0 14 ray bourque bos 82 82 0 65 6 14 bernie nicholls nj 60 60 0 72 8 14 67 8 20 andrew cassels hfd 85 85 0 56 0 14 dmitri kvartalnov bos 72 72 0 82 1 15 tomas sandstrom la 52 52 0 59 7 15 43 6 22 joe sakic que 105 105 0 109 6 15 rob blake la 59 59 0 59 5 16 derek king nyi 76 76 0 68 3 16 70 9 22 michel goulet chi 44 44 0 55 0 16 45 4 23 mike modano min 93 93 0 90 5 17 dmitri khristich wsh 67 67 0 55 0 18 alexander semak nj 79 79 0 62 6 19 nikolai borschevsky tor 74 74 0 69 3 19 mike donnelly la 69 69 0 70 5 19 jeff brown stl 78 78 0 69 1 20 thomas steen wpg 72 72 0 55 0 20 kevin dineen phi 63 63 0 55 5 20 mario lemieux pit 160 160 0 134 9 22 wayne gretzky la 65 65 0 55 0 23 1 9 cash points week 28 , team placed 1 \( 262 teams \) andrew scott andrew idacom hp com hp idacom telecom operation \( 403 \) 462 0666 ext 253 roman era , 28 considered old
organization penn state university robbie po rap115 psuvm psu edu subject blues sweep blackhawks ! 1993apr25 ramsey cs laurentian ca 1993apr25 wuecl wustl edu 93115 psuvm psu edu lines 24 article 93115 psuvm psu edu , robbie po rap115 psuvm psu edu says \( michael sy \) says michael sy cec2 wustl edu \( devils consultant \) 'bout devils ! 4 1 penguins ! attention penguins fans pens win game 5 , show laughter e mail box address listed thanks ! \) attention penguins fans , apparently 99 999 understand joke \( hence \) next \) one idiot n't got pissed sent two hate e mails telling wrong intentions sending e mail anyone pens win tonight , really expect intend lead send poster e mail either serious request n't know \( probably \) n't thanks robbie po 1993 's streakers comes naturally ! patrick division semi 's pgh penguins see , wait devils 4 , penguins 1 1991 , 1992 stanley possibility , n't see penguins lead , 3 1 cup champions \) strong resemblance dg '89
organization penn state university robbie po rap115 psuvm psu edu subject caps postseason fortunes distribution world lines 12 article jhunix hcf jhu edu , admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu \( steve c liu \) says okay , caps break golf clubs , anyone history washington futility record playoffs \? remember terry 's first year first n't give soon lot fans n't give 3 1 last year gotta believe ! \( hard may seem \) caps 1 power play playoffs 1 penalty killing \( according mike lange \) caps make sure n't go ot boston 's chicago 's demise ot curse
william k willis ww1a andrew cmu edu subject bruins fans \? \? \? organization administrative computing info services , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 3 nntp posting host po4 andrew cmu edu reply 93113 psuvm psu edu good point n't even recent posts ulf ! secretly , i'm convinced 's responsible bs 3 0 buffalo , somehow
vergolin euler lbs msu edu \( david vergolini \) subject buffalo sabres organization michigan state university lines 12 nntp posting host euler lbs msu edu summary buffalo sabres lead boston 3 0 best seven playoffs keywords sabres boston \? ok , buffalo fans red wings fan , amazed sabres beating bruins reason \? grant fuhr mogilny lafontaine \? would like hear since know much sabres dave vergolini michigan state university vergolin euler lbs msu edu
organization queen 's university kingston andy qucdn queensu ca subject cbc canadian espn lines 37 article cs dal ca , reiniger ug cs dal ca \( darren reiniger \) says 'd like echo sentiments worst coverage ever remember seeing cbc soon game ends , count 30 , time , 've signed air post game interviews , updating late scores , nothin' tsn really putting cbc shame hope later round coverage improves , mean , really wants see cbc news instead hockey 02 , darren concession cbc news , argued 're going play havoc schedule , least make sure prime time aired soon possible news got commitment post game show would scrapped network would go within one minute game ending earlier comments cbc frankly doubleheader goes ways , people west cant see leafs people central canada ca n't see jets game reason decision cbc 's feeling could n't sell advertising six hours hockey one night wants see news hockey , lot people cbc always gets plenty complaints juggling news schedule darren reiniger reiniger ug cs dal ca arishem ac dal ca centre marine geology , dalhousie university , halifax , n , canada people wonder generation going remind came first place
mamatha devineni ratnam mr47 andrew cmu edu subject real fans organization post office , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 19 nntp posting host po5 andrew cmu edu discussion real fans ones respect teams matter ow bad 's bullshit anyone would follow pens pirates parts early eighties devoted basis losers 's ok follow concerned home team give respect even clear management players suck required true fan true fan would follow team troubled times extent could discuss improve team visit pittsburgh , 'll refuse go pirates game since think management given pittsburgh team could much better even could n't sign barry bonds 's say pens start team oilers done year whalers done recent years , would hard pressed show much enthusiasm team 'll still follow bitch wo n't waste money mediocre teams p ravin ratnam
news cc umanitoba ca \( derek ward \) subject winnipeg vs vancouver nntp posting host ccu umanitoba ca organization university manitoba , winnipeg , canada x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 lines 15 david downie \( dave downie commerce ubc ca \) wrote speaking paddock 's \? puts mind , physical presence waking might real mistake n't injury anyways \? perhaps paddock meant say momesso cheap short artist , would make sense wpg '93 ! ccu umanitoba ca computer science u manitoba
alleg edu \( brett ball \) subject nhl letter organization allegheny college lines 2 wanted send letter nhl would send \? brett e ball
gballent vancouver uvic ca \( greg ballentine \) subject winnipeg vs vancouver nntp posting host vancouver uvic ca reply gballent vancouver uvic ca organization university victoria , victoria , bc , canada lines 24 article ccu umanitoba ca , umturne4 ccu umanitoba ca \( daryl turner \) writes oh yeah go arena see one , two , six championship banners hanging 3 stanley cup banners , 3 cup banners nhl guide says vancouver cup \( many times town ! \) n't let confuse anybody winnipeg jets never stanley cup \( even come close \) stanley cup championships go back long way turn century winnipeg one cups jets n't win think anything irrelevant argue playoff series going today stanley cups around turn century \? \? lets face facts canucks leading series 3 1 canucks dominated jets season series canucks better regular season winnipeg better team \? think facts show vancouver better winnipeg gregmeister
chopin udel edu \( jonathan goldstein \) subject isles ! ! ! ! ! ! nntp posting host chopin udel edu organization university delaware lines 21 watch come isles ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! said would n't make playoffs came third said caps would beat us 're going say 1 1 ratio winning cup 'll prove wrong l e g l n e r ! ! ! ! ! ! ! bring back home
ragraca vela acs oakland edu \( randy graca \) subject cherry new pens \? organization oakland university , rochester , michigan , u lines 34 nntp posting host vela acs oakland edu lli cs cmu edu \( lori iannamico \) writes article published morning 's pittsburgh post gazette , kbl \( pgh cable sports channel \) president bill craig confirmed preliminary talks mouth north , cherry craig said interested hiring cherry color commentator post game duties others considered open broadcasting jobs current pens announcers mike lange paul steigerwald \( craig spoke yesterday \) , kbl 's stan guy , espn 's mike emrick , mn broadcaster doug , tsn 's jim kbl penguins new deal , giving kbl tv radio rights pens games plans kbl would like entire night hockey , starting 7 00 pre game show running post game show would sign 11 00 \( depending upon length game \) cherry announcing penguins games yeah , \( quote pgh 's goofy mayor \) i'm queen considering often badly slammed pens coach 's corner hockey night canada , would surprise well , people anything money , wo n't \? lori contact penguins lli cs cmu edu randy
ragraca vela acs oakland edu \( randy graca \) subject wings win organization oakland university , rochester , michigan , u lines 40 nntp posting host vela acs oakland edu gballent vancouver uvic ca \( greg ballentine \) writes article 116 vis toronto edu , bdown vis toronto edu \( brian \) writes stuff deleted example , look pat quinn canucks \( saying best gm merely better one murray one familiar \) traded garth butcher \( good player \) dan quinn \( nhl anymore \) st louis cliff ronning , geoff courtnall , sergio robert dirk good true right think goes along comment made earlier post namely , quinn taking advantage major league bonehead gm st louis trade absolutely stupid trade st louis , stupid trade guy made give quinn credit stuff trades deleted plus team improved much greater amount detroit since took figure \? vancouver detroit thing last year division , close number points , went 3 1 first round playoffs finally escaping 7 games , got knocked second round teams able beat , less talent \( specifically , remember correctly , third place teams \) make vancouver improved \? , i'm mistaken , wings points vancouver end season \( albeit many \) gregmeister randy
organization queen 's university kingston andy qucdn queensu ca subject oilers go hamilton lines 11 article 1993apr26 spang camosun bc ca , ua256 freenet victoria bc ca \( tom moffat \) says oilers move hamilton division play wo n't change name steelers something significant deposits oil around hamilton caused tire fire years back nba utah jazz l lakers \( think , lakes l \) guess nhl hamilton oilers
mike bnr ca subject senators sign top draft picks x xxdate mon , 26 apr 93 16 06 33 gmt organization bell northern research x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d17 lines 9 reports ottawa today say senators come verbal agreement last seasons first pick 2nd overall choice alexei yashin 5 year deal well senators signed second round pick chad currently playing sault ste marie ontario junior league playoffs mike bnr ottawa , ontario
yatrou telecom ca \( paul yatrou \) subject stewart homered wings ! ! organization bell northern research montreal , canada lines 25 andy bgsu edu m248 100 bgsu edu andy bgsu edu \( ryan \) writes paul stewart called single worst game 've seen year 's major obvious , n't dispute however , chaisson 's penalty n't even penalty , let alone major game misconduct n't notice refs linesmen playoffs come around , yes agree stewart called two worst games 've seen far \( mtl quebec game 1 , last nights toronto detroit game \) 's scoop guy \? latest incarnation kerry fraser \? \? \? stubborn n't make good ref ! ! ! making right call votes best ref van hellemond improved worst paul stewart \( oops , n't really want start best worst ref thread n't follow \) paul yatrou
carl andrew cmu edu subject cherry new pens \? organization junior , materials science engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 22 nntp posting host po2 andrew cmu edu reply d88 1 cs cmu edu kbl penguins new deal , giving kbl tv radio rights pens games plans kbl would like entire night hockey , starting 7 00 pre game show running post game show would sign 11 00 \( depending upon length game \) cherry announcing penguins games yeah , \( quote pgh 's goofy mayor \) i'm queen lori contact penguins lli cs cmu edu well watching hockey hotline last night stan said station \( kbl \) recieving calls day concerning subject verdict almost exclusively nobody wanted load mouth , know blow hard , former bruin , ulf hating , scum sucking , pr ck pittsburgh permanent basis 's exactly stan said bit cmu kiddie
gtd597a prism gatech edu \( hrivnak \) subject nhl letter \( quite long \) organization georgia institute technology lines 10 obnoxious name calling deleted ok , wants rm \? say get net revoked seconds \? go skins ! next question emotional music quite go braves ! effect \? mike patton , faith go hornets ! go capitals ! mike friedman \( hrivnak fan ! \) internet gtd597a prism gatech edu
gtd597a prism gatech edu \( hrivnak \) subject nhl letter \( quite long \) organization georgia institute technology lines 12 roger , shut thank go skins ! next question emotional music quite go braves ! effect \? mike patton , faith go hornets ! go capitals ! mike friedman \( hrivnak fan ! \) internet gtd597a prism gatech edu
mark com \( mark \) subject minnesota shame \? lines 30 sh i'm hockey fan way back , maintain interest best hockey hinterlands \( oklahoma \) i'm hoping get reading move north stars dallas sh 've impression minnesota one , possibly , hockey state u team moving city texas \? owner greedy , self serving , stars really making profit \? city whoever owned arena price \? sh much 'd like see nhl 3 hour drive , ca n't help feel people minnesota , unless truly n't support team sh opinions , please used work stars minnesota supported team extent , quite sellouts \( season cup run finals \) norm 's main bitch n't enough luxury , ones always full wanted boxes wanted full asking much people could go see hockey games high schools 5 college 10 would probably better mark 1 01 41 radioactive cats , hot ! origin origin line defined \( 1 282 \)
farenebt craft camp clarkson edu \( droopy \) subject springfield indians ahl office organization clarkson university lines 32 nntp posting host craft clarkson edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 something crossposted ahl mailing list discussion chris , subject springfield 's 1st round upset providence bruins came chris basically raised possibility ahl hierarchy biased favor indians noted offices league spring many ex indians working ahl furthermore , also informed back years ago cup finals spring , charged office little questionable things ahl president staff attending games springfield brass , including sitting box game springfield , according rochester media , openly cheering springfield certainly something quite serious true n't know anything whining part \( pulled sort crap wings \) true , somthing seriously raises questions president jack 's leadership btw posted permission chris bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl , ecac boston bruins contact rec sport hockey adirondack red wings , calder cup champs '81 '86 '89 '92 clarkson hockey , ecac tournament champs '66 '91 '93 glens falls high hockey , ny division ii state champs '90 '91 ahl fans join ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu
filinuk staff dccs upenn edu \( geoff filinuk \) subject wash isl ot game reply filinuk staff dccs upenn edu \( geoff filinuk \) organization university pennsylvania lines 17 nntp posting host staff dccs upenn edu comes indirectly al works studio espn hockey management espn reluctant leave pitt nj game \( even though outcome certain \) fear wash ny game going overtime caps scored 02 left tie game , al said heard many people say f k ! espn contractual obligation show baseball could broadcast ot hockey game next year , espn2 introduced baseball fans watch baseball hockey fans watch hockey get back stop posting articles subject ! ! ! many f n game 's making sick geoff filinuk
golf phoenix oulu fi \( jouko kylmaoja \) subject wc , pool organization university oulu , finland x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 10 italy sweden 2 6 \( 0 1 , 1 2 , 1 3 \) w l canada 2 2 0 0 6 1 4 sweden 3 2 0 1 8 6 4 russia 2 1 1 0 6 4 3 italy 3 1 1 1 5 8 3 austria 2 0 0 2 2 5 0 switzerland 2 0 0 2 0 3 0
gtd597a prism gatech edu \( hrivnak \) subject nhl letter \( quite long \) organization georgia institute technology lines 17 article 1993apr26 sol ctr columbia edu phoenix startide ctr columbia edu \( ali lemer \) writes ali procrastination lemer gave nhl commissioner gary bettman puck columbia university \( nyc \) spent rest day trying phoenix ctr columbia edu open pat williams , gm , orlando magic kind animals hug hockey player ! nice sig like change btw could post names people going letter \? \( i'm sure others \) would like know included i'm want ! roger fool ! go skins ! next question emotional music quite go braves ! effect \? mike patton , faith go hornets ! go capitals ! mike friedman \( hrivnak fan ! \) internet gtd597a prism gatech edu
tervio katk helsinki fi \( marko j \) subject switzerland organization university helsinki , computing centre lines 19 article 1993apr23 690 vms huji ac il vms huji ac il writes anybody know wc qualification olympic games '94 teams already qualified daniel top 11 teams tournament play olympics next year last team tournament , top two pool b \( great britain poland \) winner pool c \( latvia \) play last olympic spot next fall however , next year 's hosts norway finish 12th \( would surprise \) , 's 11th team pool play qualification tournament marko tervio
cleveland freenet edu \( richard l \) subject caps moving \? \? \? \? \? organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 16 nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu would want move caps , think owns cap centre know n't sell games , draw lot bullets situation abe , would move guaranteed anyone went games would park stadium , nothing within half mile , recent construction area win game ot rich 've read hat , see movie imus morning blurb \? 're blurb ! seinfeld
nhmas gauss med harvard edu \( mark shneyder 432 4219 \) subject buffalo 4 , boston 0 defense ! ! organization hms lines 29 nntp posting host gauss med harvard edu article bson nutrimat gnu ai mit edu bson gnu ai mit edu \( jan brittenson \) writes n't mean much since statistics mostly based 5 game playoff format , yes , looks dark b 's disappointment fat lady hit first note okay , 3 0 deficits \? b 's chances comeback less 1 \( 's based 7 game playoff format \) think gets start game three \? hope going blue team rally around , maybe moog got start headlines boston local tv said sutter blue ! harry sinden 's appearance outside b 's dressing room game 3 pathetic site said something really retarded cover sutter 's behind , game winning losing harry , check schedule ! team playoffs go long summer vacation sunday morning ! harry never admit screwed major way brought one dumbest people business , brian sutter sutter 's playoff record head coach st louis speaks blues really chance advance second round year ppv mark
aurora alaska edu subject regular season 93 94 pool lines 29 nntp posting host acad3 alaska edu organization university alaska fairbanks came using final regular season stats 92 93 , find april 22 , 1993 edition usa today ! try see come 1 adam oates c bruins 145 pts 2 teemu selanne rw jets 136 pts 3 alexander mogilny rw sabres 131 pts 4 pavel bure rw canucks 116 pts 5 vincent damphousse lw canadians 106 pts 6 dave andreychuk lw 104 pts 7 phil housley rd jets 103 pts 8 paul coffey rd redwings 94 pts 9 sergei fedorov c redwings 94 pts 10 andy moog g bruins 86 pts 11 al rd 82 pts 12 patrick roy g canadians 76 pts 13 al macinnis ld flames 60 pts 14 dennis savard c canadians 59 pts 15 calle johansson ld capitals 50 pts 16 yuri khmylev lw sabres 41 pts 17 richard smehlik ld sabres 36 pts total points 1519 pts valuable player adam oates rookie year teemu selanne improved player vincent damphousse defenseman year phil housley goalie year patrick roy
lmarsha cms cc wayne edu \( laurie marshall \) subject another travesty joe louis organization wayne state university , detroit mi u lines 31 nntp posting host cms cc wayne edu article 1993apr22 mtroyal ab ca caldwell8102 mtroyal ab ca writes \( detroit , april 21 \) knowledgable observers watched shock detroit red wings beat best goaltender world six times en route another easy victory best team nhl best goaltender world , felix potvin , six bad number surrendered six goals collected six minutes penalties reponse goon tactics employed inferior red wings team alan p told would happen , roger n't \? love roger anyway \? n't heard awhile must golf course waiting leafs join day \) laurie marshall wayne state university detroit , michigan go wings ! ! ! !
twork egr msu edu \( michael twork \) subject wings news playoff thoughts organization michigan state university lines 12 reply twork egr msu edu \( michael twork \) nntp posting host frith egr msu edu originator twork frith egr msu edu roots detroit would valuable asset wings perhaps rangers could get zombo return \? wake smell norris ! ! rick zombo traded blues vince \( sp \? \) last season mike
lead egr msu edu \( gregory hall \) subject wings news playoff thoughts organization college engineering , michigan state university lines 16 distribution world nntp posting host lead egr msu edu far cheveldae concerned , decent goalie logical trade offseason would detroit ny rangers i'm sure beezer would traded would enjoy opportunity go back roots detroit would valuable asset wings perhaps rangers could get zombo return \? beezer got good years opportunity get fresh start would play problem zombo traded st louis last year goalie vincent riendeau think chevy among elite class goalies , adequate given offensive firepower wings greg
roney sfu ca \( chris j roney \) subject hey , teh cannucks \? organization simon fraser university , burnaby , b c , canada lines 24 grogers slacvx slac stanford edu \( greg rogers \) writes hi , due living bay area , unable see vancouver 's victory jets last night know score , rarely describes game could someone please post brief \( sp \? \) happened well team play \? cannucks deserving victory \? well , opinion canucks played really strong game especially pleased strong game linden think could key success year defensively , really strong game hardly heard selanne 's name night craven also played one best games since coming exceptions , really n't let high flying jets much high flying thought jets defence looked canucks forwards improve want make series short , great start ! chris roney \( e mail chris roney sfu ca \)
loh fraser sfu ca \( keith meng wei loh \) subject canucks 3 2 winnipeg organization simon fraser university , burnaby , b c , canada lines 51 jets gave canucks another run money almost identical game first series came short vancouver winnipeg 3 2 pattern first game repeated tonight , canucks scoring quickly going sleep second period , jet comeback goals greater talent jets looked dangerous one n't make difference numbers counted goals vancouver 's big line produced , centre cliff ronning left winger geoff courtnall scoring first second boost canucks 2 0 lead giveaways suspect jet defence bautin ulanov mental lapses defence goal scoring talent areas made difference three canuck goals however , first game , jets worked hard take game canucks second period jets dominated second , checking hard vancouver zone without challenged canuck team wanted pack early hard work paid late second , tie domi caught vancouver goalie kirk mclean surprise sharp angle shot make score 2 1 domi 's goal gave jets new life began take rush canuck 's collapsing defence canucks unwilling anything let mclean take shots clear rebounds jets allowed set make plays goalies made saves play picked considerably mclean made three great saves second dancing selanne essensa rocked pavel bure drive selanne looked dangerous rush jets pressed series attacks canuck zone canucks , hand , looked like offering four checking lines effort preserve slim lead series minor penalties end second period resulted one man advantage jets early third jet 's tempo numminen drove puck point mclean 's legs net tie game 2 2 canuck 's play picked left characterized long lead passes either never connected picked jets individual rushes tight winnipeg defence never supported however , first second canuck goals , jet defensive lapse \( bonehead play \) stalled winnipeg comeback faceoff winnipeg zone , pavel bure left stand crease jet defender anywhere near bure , invisible game point , took rebound managed roof backhand even though balance late jets come back essensa made bench one minute go extra attacker nothing attack canucks 3 , winnipeg 2 next game friday winnipeg jets hole two games 30
hammerl acsu buffalo edu \( valerie hammerl \) subject nhl letter \( quite long \) nntp posting host lictor acsu buffalo edu organization ub lines 54 article 1993apr25 ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) writes 1993apr25 sol ctr columbia edu phoenix startide ctr columbia edu \( ali lemer \) writes dear mr bettman \( ali 's letter deleted brevity \) \( roger 's acid laced response removed \) maybe get together establish kind mandatory maturity level keep stuff air roger , responses might exclude sharing opinions , see , rights ali mail letter nhl ones let post replies mow like wheat harvest time never said represented entire internet entire group rec sport hockey every right state opinion along fifty sixty hundred odd folk 've agreed allow list names bottom may agree fine really n't care enough name change care name n't attached , moan complain \? felt words leading , well , 're free feel way take exception , manners never hurt personally disagree feel generalizations fine \( right think say , \) ali 's change single word , 're free disagree every word wrote , tear apart character uncalled i'm posting form public tear ali 's integrity character publicly , 'll get chastised publicly return would hard say , ali , please bit specific description , way 've read indicates 're stating view also , 's simply true 'd really like see disclaimer noting n't mean entire internet entire r h group attached , despite intent list names bottom thanks cordially always , c calling moron asshole reduces weight words opinions author eyes , possibly others oh , ali , nice see someone standing something , even 's something personally advocate \) valerie hammerl john sr would lift pat boards , grab hammerl acsu buffalo edu hand , start running around outside , v085pwpz ubvms cc buffalo edu faster faster wanted learn get feeling , way learn skate p lafontaine
cas org \( \) subject clipper algorithm secret organization chemical abstracts service , columbus , ohio lines 24 article 1993apr20 fsl noaa gov bear kestrel fsl noaa gov \( bear giles \) writes article panix com dfl panix com \( danny o'bedlam \) writes algorithm classified military contract \( similar government equivalent military \) let proprietary design feds say nsa developed patent \? patent publicly available \? betting classified unless major change law , 's beast classified patent patents exist encourage communications develop state art yes , patent classified secret recently saw patent 1947 \( dealing nuclear weapons technology \) declassified last couple years course problem enforcing patent thing applies civilian development ca n't patent something declare trade secret however , \( \) mark software \( including proprietary code \) unpublished copyright ever get exposed still legal protection absolutely right alec chambers
subject freely distributable public key cryptography c code \? rubin dsg4 dse beckman com \( arthur rubin \) organization beckman instruments , inc nntp posting host dsg4 dse beckman com lines 22 moose cs indiana edu marc vanheyningen mvanheyn cs indiana edu writes pgp available archive site rsa com , would highly amusing , since rsa com \( actually public key partners , 's entity \) organization holding patents claim violated actually make , use sell pgp believe patents also apply canada , i'm patent lawyer anything \( sorry double posting , forgot something \) make , use sell context non standard meanings make means making encrypted message use may mean using pgp , using encrypted message sell would probably mean selling encrypted message message created patented process incorporated pgp , arthur l rubin rubin dsg4 dse beckman com \( work \) beckman instruments brea 216 5888 mcimail com 70707 453 compuserve com arthur pnet01 cts com \( personal \) opinions , represent employer
subject key registering bodies rubin dsg4 dse beckman com \( arthur rubin \) organization beckman instruments , inc nntp posting host dsg4 dse beckman com lines 16 7hl netcom com nagle netcom com \( john nagle \) writes since law requires wiretaps requested executive branch approved judicial branch , seems clear one key registering bodies control judicial branch suggest supreme court , , regionally , courts appeal specifically , offices clerks makes sense half must non government escrow \( still like eff , admin security tested \) arthur l rubin rubin dsg4 dse beckman com \( work \) beckman instruments brea 216 5888 mcimail com 70707 453 compuserve com arthur pnet01 cts com \( personal \) opinions , represent employer
dds doc ic ac uk \( \) subject greek comint installation \( secret source announcement \) organization dept computing , imperial college , england lines 40 distribution world nntp posting host scorch doc ic ac uk summary old us military base keywords marathon us base nea article 1993apr22 158 cathy ijs si , borut b lavrencic ijs si article netcom com , grady netcom com \( 1016 2ef221 \) writes popular cipher systems captured soviet spies one time pad , even necessity keeping incriminating evidence , known proven unbreakable system soviet paranoia , right \? think nsa \? huge pointed embassy row \? sites near satellite uplink downlink sites \? duh one case paranoia upon time tried walk \( famous \) marathon field , far away athens could mostly field huge antenna farm probably greek comint installation , would agree \? sure field area found antenna farm \? tomb \( \) marathon herodotus specifies near fighting area area open public must referring u army base nea built u manner bases world \( w germany , spain , philippines , turkey etc \) built think telecommunications hub recent years u forces withdrawn base removed military equipment area currently control greek navy interested parties \( local goverment , central goverment , political parties agree done land \( park , recreation area , real estate \) \( nothing cryptography , security eff redirected followups soc culture greek \) internet dds doc ic ac uk uucp ! uknet ! ! dds department computing , imperial college , london sw7 include dev tty
subject tapped , code good rubin dsg4 dse beckman com \( arthur rubin \) distribution na organization beckman instruments , inc nntp posting host dsg4 dse beckman com lines 18 305 visicom com makey visicom com \( jeff makey \) writes article c5so84 hxv demon co uk graham toal gtoal gtoal com writes completely baffled dorothy denning chosen throw away academic respectability like n't dorothy denning spent many years earning professional respect colleagues , something manner easily lost support clipper matter unpopular position may serves far enhance clipper 's respectability diminish would n't think asking people trust secret algorithm seems unsound arthur l rubin rubin dsg4 dse beckman com \( work \) beckman instruments brea 216 5888 mcimail com 70707 453 compuserve com arthur pnet01 cts com \( personal \) opinions , represent employer
subject freely distributable public key cryptography c code \? rubin dsg4 dse beckman com \( arthur rubin \) organization beckman instruments , inc nntp posting host dsg4 dse beckman com lines 17 moose cs indiana edu marc vanheyningen mvanheyn cs indiana edu writes pgp available archive site rsa com , would highly amusing , since rsa com \( actually public key partners , 's entity \) organization holding patents claim violated actually make , use sell pgp believe patents also apply canada , i'm patent lawyer anything patents n't apply canada think free trade agreement may provide recognition new patents , old ones arthur l rubin rubin dsg4 dse beckman com \( work \) beckman instruments brea 216 5888 mcimail com 70707 453 compuserve com arthur pnet01 cts com \( personal \) opinions , represent employer
nagle netcom com \( john nagle \) subject key registering bodies organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 29 since law requires wiretaps requested executive branch approved judicial branch , seems clear one key registering bodies control judicial branch suggest supreme court , , regionally , courts appeal specifically , offices clerks courts already operate substantial record keeping operations records confidential concept court holding information confidence accordance law longstanding legal precedents judiciary immune pressure executive branch executive branch agency contractor judicial control keys appropriate half key , suggest unit congress , general accounting office gao congress 's staff unit keeping tabs executive branch , excellent reputation 's controlled strictly congress executive branch authority keys split legislative judicial branches , might chance system working honestly , course , way found keep keys reach construed endorsement whole clipper concept , splitting control across three branches government might make work john nagle
cs sunysb edu \( p joseph hong \) subject hidden markov modeling organization institute theoretical physics lines 11 nntp posting host rad sunysb edu summary nsa use hmm \? references \? keywords markov modeling nsa x newsreader tin 1 1 pl3 article last ! talk computer may issue fortune magazine , mentioned prediction used hidden markov modeling statistical method markov developed predict letter sequences 's novel , eugene said technique worked well nsa used crack codes anyone references hmm nsa used \? extension letter frequency tables using anyway \? joe rad sunysb edu
neural hampshire edu \( andrew \) subject detect use illegal cipher \? organization hampshire college , amherst , lines 13 nntp posting host neural hampshire edu could someone repost send via email original posting clipper chip press release thanks andrew hampshire college neural hampshire edu andrew three may keep secret hampshire college two dead neural hampshire edu benjamin franklin
amber \( ken beal \) subject tapped , code good organization harris csd , ft lauderdale , fl lines 18 distribution inet nntp posting host amber ssd csd harris com x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lawrence c foard \( lfoard hopper virginia edu \) wrote article 1993apr22 cs aukuni ac nz pgut1 cs aukuni ac nz \( peter gutmann \) writes article deleted quick reality check real someone invent provoke reaction people \? sounds like sort thing 'd heard , suitably rephrased , leader certain german political party 1930 's sounds like joke \( war drugs always joke \) remember seeing several months ago , marked joke funny things circulate ! kenneth l beal , jr amber ssd csd harris com use os 2 2 1 ! \) often ring bell \? nlp tapes learn keep moving street person responsibility indigo girls better one man gathers another man spills dead opinions mine religion batf approved \? pro ! con progress !
mckee cs buffalo edu \( douglas mckee \) subject sorry folks \( read \) distribution na organization state university new york buffalo cedar research group lines 50 originator mckee cs buffalo edu nntp posting host cs buffalo edu article 1993apr22 28445 ucsu colorado edu , andersom spot colorado edu \( marc anderson \) writes article 1993apr21 9999 ucsu colorado edu andersom spot colorado edu \( marc anderson \) writes \( date 1 26 93 \) note clinton 's statements encryption 3rd paragraph guess statement n't contradict said , though cut washington \( upi \) war drugs get fresh start , president clinton told delegates national federation police convention washington first speech drug issue since , clinton said planned escalation drug war make everything far seem half hearted practical found source article joke heh heh seemed pretty damn convincing start n't notice smiley end article , hints caught well , n't hoot ! \) read group bunch ppl fearing information big bad evil govt happens case ordinary joe netter , decided would create distribute misinformation ppl buy bs posts like \( know , forwarded copy post office mate , turned around \( although wo n't admit sorry joe ! \) ready get fight f r f e u r e ! ! ! \) please , 're going hold govt \( admittedly still problems \) high standards , must n't follow \? electronic freedoms go far anyway guess turn resemble clinton 's true feelings least extent sorry marc andersom spot colorado edu hey , i'm willing forgive course office mate takes extra anti paranoia pills ! \) doug mckee mckee cs buffalo edu
gardner convex com \( steve gardner \) subject escrow database nntp posting host imagine convex com organization engineering , convex computer corp , richardson , tx , usa x disclaimer message written user convex computer corp opinions expressed user necessarily convex lines 12 article inf netcom com strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes waco massacre big brother wiretap chip , tactic fair pernicious nonsense ! way david \? government totally control , whether realize know find painful think old buddy uncle sam evil 's true democracies fallen way knee jerk sheep instinctively trust government helping slide power corrupts david , hard understand \?
jhan debra dgbt doc ca \( jerry han \) subject overreacting \( tapped , code good \) nntp posting host debra dgbt doc ca organization communications research centre , ottawa distribution na lines 20 article access digex net steve b access digex com \( steve brinich \) writes somebody asked wrong overreacting cases reason simple many people want die riot \? new civil war \? precisely government must cut knees pulls stunts like , lest situation worsen point extreme measures required fine cut pen paper , sword jerry han crc doc div behavioural research jhan debra dgbt doc ca opinions , opinions proud frozen member mighty warriors band memories 've left behind , still ringing ears genesis
strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) subject new encryption organization dsi uscrpac lines 24 psionic wam umd edu , whose name either unfortunate coincidence casts serious doubt bona fides , posts message seems willing take word private firm knows little new encryption algorithm secure contains trapdoors , seemingly government clipper suppose depends paranoid one wishes , writer know firm n't , example , nsa front \? purposes message , know psionic n't \? n't suggest , post point class speculation truth value , without lots hard evidence , contrary one way , psionic said , lower case letters , firm claims back door , 'd problem phrasing david david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted
strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) subject shelf cheap des keyseach machine \( corporate acceptance wiretap chip \) organization dsi uscrpac lines 34 article c5uvn4 mf7 austin ibm com arussell austin ibm com \( ag russell \) writes company worked previously , received file des encryped person sent , went vaction rather wait two weeks set straight frontal attack one key time took two \( 2 \) days crack file , n't faith des taking face value \( though seems quite dissonant much else published brute force des cracking , unless russell lucky respect key \) , 'd interested whether program russell used available \? whether used cleartext recognition algorithm program whether examine decryption hand \? whether used known plaintext attack \? probably also tell us , given address , machine used desktop , workstation , super computer depending answer , could appalling development calling question des rsa des dunno rsa idea bright programmer little idle machine time crack single des message couple days \( assuming tricks message specific \) , 's clipper key , nsa give chip \) david david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted
victori xetron com \( victor iseli \) subject freely distributable public key cryptography c code \? organization xetron corporation , cincinnati ohio lines 10 numerical recipes c fortran pascal nice section encryption decryption based des algorithm also source code provided \( think versions book distributed source code disk source code also ordered publisher \) victor iseli victori xetron com
strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) subject escrow database organization dsi uscrpac lines 41 article 1993apr22 news eng convex com gardner convex com \( steve gardner \) writes article inf netcom com strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes waco massacre big brother wiretap chip , tactic fair pernicious nonsense ! way david \? government totally control , whether realize know find painful think old buddy uncle sam evil 's true democracies fallen way knee jerk sheep instinctively trust government helping slide power corrupts david , hard understand \? n't point point implied position waco massacre assertion cum political position according cnn poll , 86 americans think fbi acted properly , majority think done \( tear gas \) lot sooner large majority also believe fbi responsible death victims , koresh \( let 's avoid kind fruitless argument sort n't x 'd , b might 'd \) call big brother chip right proposal discussion , yet clear strong crypto going banned therefore neither justifies tactic fair thus statement nonsense pernicious , tactic lead damaging others see know tone reply , 's nothing personal intended david david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted
boyd acsu buffalo edu \( daniel f boyd \) subject shelf cheap des keyseach machine \( corporate acceptance wiretap chip \) organization ub lines 40 nntp posting host autarch acsu buffalo edu article strnlghtc5wcmo fx5 netcom com strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes article c5uvn4 mf7 austin ibm com arussell austin ibm com \( ag russell \) writes company worked previously , received file des encryped person sent , went vaction rather wait two weeks set straight frontal attack one key time took two \( 2 \) days crack file taking face value \( though seems quite dissonant much else published brute force des cracking , unless russell lucky respect key \) , 'd interested whether program russell used available \? whether used cleartext recognition algorithm program whether examine decryption hand \? whether used known plaintext attack \? dictionary attack attack makes sense means whoever encrypted file typed password single dictionary word , russell tried words dictionary n't implausible , especially smart clipped first plaintext block ciphertext \( first block n't decrypt obviously others wo n't either \) assuming one attempt second , takes seven hours try words usr words real tough want des secure , use random keys ca n't type wife 's name think aha 'll never guess one ! daniel f boyd boyd cs buffalo edu welcome first church white zone loading unloading
tcmay netcom com \( timothy c may \) subject escrow database organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 lines 34 david sternlight \( strnlght netcom com \) wrote article 1993apr22 news eng convex com gardner convex com \( steve gardner \) writes elided preserve sanity n't point point implied position waco massacre assertion cum political position according cnn poll , call big brother chip right proposal discussion , yet clear strong crypto going banned set record straight , steve gardner author bit quoted steve took issue david 's characterization words pernicious nonsense wo n't comment views folks either support 'em n't , lines question neither central points making original post important debate sci crypt elsewhere tim may , continues hold views n't feel like debating politics timothy c may crypto anarchy encryption , digital money , tcmay netcom com anonymous networks , digital pseudonyms , zero 408 688 5409 knowledge , reputations , information markets , w e aptos , ca black markets , collapse governments higher power 2 756839 public key pgp mailsafe available
quip eecs umich edu \( dan \) subject new encryption organization university michigan eecs dept , ann arbor lines 13 article netcom com strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes psionic wam umd edu , whose name either unfortunate coincidence casts serious doubt bona fides , posts message seems willing take word private firm knows little new encryption algorithm secure contains trapdoors , seemingly government clipper someone please post david sternlight faq alt privacy clipper someone unfamiliar takes seriously starts yet another flame fest \? dan
ns111310 lance colostate edu \( nathaniel sammons \) subject seen lobby , us nntp posting host casco lance colostate edu organization colorado state u engineering college lines 16 1 \) think us afford stamp envelope , cost printing letter 2 \) kind soul would write letter , upload net , everyone could capture , print , snail mail local congressional critter btw i'm working one nate hate quotations message brought tell know nate sammons , number 42 ralph waldo emerson ns111310 longs lance colostate edu
ns111310 lance colostate edu \( nathaniel sammons \) subject could someone mail text white house clipper announcement \? nntp posting host casco lance colostate edu organization colorado state u engineering college lines 9 thanks bunch , nate hate quotations message brought tell know nate sammons , number 42 ralph waldo emerson ns111310 longs lance colostate edu
wingo apple com \( tony wingo \) subject new encryption organization apple computer lines 27 article 1993apr22 magic mcc com , croley magic mcc com \( david croley \) wrote would seem one fact government overlooked whole fiasco economic standpoint others mentioned , difficulty clipper chip faces economic one let 's face , average consumer n't care know clipper bad idea perceived need cellular encryption , companies provide one likely , standard emerge clipper expensive \( 25 chip way much \) develope buy cheaper one interesting point coarse rule thumb , figure final price product 3 5 times cost goods \( exact multiplier depends largely economies scale products sell tens millions units year low end , sell thousands units year high end suspect cellular phones middle \) implies adding 25 chip would increase cost phone approx 100 , 25 30 n't think 'll get lot consumer support tony usual disclaimer
cme ellisun sw stratus com \( carl ellison \) subject clipper considered harmful organization stratus computer , software engineering lines 20 distribution inet nntp posting host ellisun sw stratus com article bontchev fbihh bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de writes , feds still able decrypt conversations true , 'll blame wrong guys , nevertheless one cannot say something like drugs arrive tommorrow ship feds listening , even cannot identify speaker 's question holding phone 's question circuit wiretap first place two drug dealers using stolen cellular phones , fbi n't know lines tap unless course 're tapping phones \( maybe cellular phones \) n't tapped connection \( ie , least one end connection \) n't know key request disclaimer opinions expressed , course carl ellison cme sw stratus com stratus computer inc m3 2 bkw tel \( 508 \) 460 2783 55 fairbanks boulevard marlborough 01752 1298 fax \( 508 \) 624 7488
grady netcom com \( 1016 2ef221 \) subject freely distributable public key cryptography c code \? organization capriccioso x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 20 victor iseli \( victori xetron com \) wrote numerical recipes c fortran pascal nice section encryption decryption based des algorithm also source code provided \( think versions book distributed source code disk source code also ordered publisher \) victor iseli victori xetron com yes des implementation recipes c book 1 1 2 orders magnitude slower outerbridge karn gillogly et al implementation may instructional , n't fast grady netcom com 2ef221 15 e2 ad d3 d1 c6 f3 fc 58 ac f7 3d 4f 01 1e 2f
smb research att com \( steven bellovin \) subject tapped , code good organization bell laboratories lines 14 article murdoch acc virginia edu , lfoard hopper virginia edu \( lawrence c foard \) writes article 1993apr22 cs aukuni ac nz pgut1 cs aukuni ac nz \( peter gutmann \) writes article deleted quick reality check real someone invent provoke reaction people \? sounds like sort thing 'd heard , suitably rephrased , leader certain german political party 1930 's sounds like joke \( war drugs always joke \) i'm seeking permission repost actual note , someone another mailing list checked archives \( upi major newspapers \) , found mention article
gardner convex com \( steve gardner \) subject clipper corrupt cops \( wh proposal police point view \) nntp posting host imagine convex com organization engineering , convex computer corp , richardson , tx , usa x disclaimer message written user convex computer corp opinions expressed user necessarily convex lines 8 article 1993apr21 16550 news clarkson edu tuinstra signal ece clarkson edu soe writes clipper make criminals cops want police forces \? war drugs already turned alot police criminals yet another nail constitution 's coffin smg
koontzd phobos lrmsc loral com \( david koontz \) subject new encryption organization loral rolm mil spec computers lines 50 denning guvax acc georgetown edu clipper chip technical summary dorothy denning revised , april 21 , 1993 chips programmed mykotronx , inc , calls myk 78 silicon supplied vlsi technology inc clipper chips programmed inside scif \( secure information facility \) , essentially vault scif contains laptop computer equipment program chips 300 chips programmed single session scif located mykotronx acknowledgment distribution notice article based information provided nsa , nist , fbi , mykotronx permission distribute document granted , mykotronx , inc \? would nice know front company used intelligence agency u government trusting fox guard , seems suspicious rest sources , chip design \( \) examined verified silicon insure trap doors hidden protocols exist silicon , regardless security level encryption algorithm would shame three letter agency ability interrogate chip , 'd know someone rang , attempted go hook line went dead could even worse chip intended connect directly modem design examination done gate level anyone good idea tell piggyback design silicon \? model would extra logic sharing pins advertised function tip offs would circuitry would ignore incoming data formats sequence right think two ways output pin could used , possible might noticed , could edited netlist think silicon needs investigated imagine design done two layer , yet finding third layer microscope government asking lot blind trust encryption algorithm , operating protocols , agency physical control devices , silicon implementation 'd feel like keeping one hand wallet
rsilvers nynexst com \( robert silvers \) subject seen lobby , us organization nynex science technology lines 16 article apr22 yuma acns colostate edu ns111310 lance colostate edu \( nathaniel sammons \) writes 1 \) think us afford stamp envelope , cost printing letter 2 \) kind soul would write letter , upload net , everyone could capture , print , snail mail local congressional critter btw i'm working one send something rush linbaugh clinton taking away right privacy govt standard takes , people lots money \( drug dealers \) able justify des stuff slam clinton air rob
hanson kronos arc nasa gov \( robin hanson \) subject estimating wiretap costs benefits nntp posting host arc nasa gov organization nasa arc information sciences division lines 166 would wiretap chip cost effective \? robin hanson draft , april 21 , 1993 summary compared average monthly phone bill sixty dollars , wiretaps worth two cents month police proposed wiretap chip must raise phone costs less one part three thousand cost effective background , phones happened allow existence wiretaps , detectors could pick conversations phone line time , law enforcement agencies come rely capability aid criminal investigations however , powerful new encryption technologies threaten status quo , making possible truly private communication small chip phone could soon make literally impossible conversation without physical microphones either end order preserve ability law enforcement agencies tap phone conversations , u government announced april 16 , 1993 developed begun manufacturing special wiretap chip placed future phones , instead total privacy chips private development day , announced would use chips secure telephone products chip would created government supervision , would given fixed encryption key periodically conversation , chip would broadcast identifier info special law enforcement block law enforcement officers court order could obtain key corresponding special trust agencies , could thereby listen future previously recorded conversations phone date , concerns voiced plan security government wo n't disclose encryption algorithm , many suspect government limit access way claimed track record previous governments inspire confidence point 1 however , paper neglect concerns , ask instead whether new wiretap chip cost effective tool police investigation , cheaper way society investigate crime force phone communications support wiretaps , give police agencies money investigate crimes ways \? put another way , would police agencies willing pay wiretap , pay share full social cost forcing phones support wiretaps \? start answer question , might compare current benefits wiretaps provide law enforcement agencies projected costs implementing new wiretap chip plan since current benefits easier estimate , begin wiretap benefits 1990 latest year wiretap statistics available 2 year , 872 wiretap installations requested , requests denied \( figure include wiretaps obtained consent party conversation \) 2057 arrests resulted wiretaps started year , arrests came wiretaps previous years , 55 arrests led convictions 76 wiretaps phones \( vs , email , etc \) , 60 regarding drug offenses , 40 requested federal authorities wiretap installation heard average calls , 22 incriminating , among 131 people , cost average 45 , 125 \( extrapolating 794 installations reporting costs \) , mostly labor thus total 40 million spent wiretaps , obtain 4000 arrests , 10 , 000 per arrest thus arrests least four times expensive 2500 per arrest figure one gets dividing 28 billion spent police nationally total 11 million non traffic arrests 3 thus 30 million per year spent phone taps one total police expenditures divide 138 million phone access lines country 3 , get 23 cents spent per year per phone line , two cents month general , deter given class criminals combination perceived probability caught convicted , expected punishment level convicted social value wiretaps amount would pay get criminal deterrence means unable wiretap particular suspect 's phone , police might instead use hidden microphones , investigate suspect ways police might focus suspects easily investigated without wiretaps might raise fine prison time certain types crime assume substitutes wiretaps would average twice expensive wiretaps , annual social benefit phone wiretaps equal current spending level two cents month per phone line wiretap costs let us moment assume us government encryption scheme secure whatever private enterprise would offered instead , protecting conversations spying ears neighbors , corporations , governments , foreign domestic even , need support wiretaps would add many additional costs build maintain communication system extra law enforcement blocks would added phone transmissions , increasing traffic unknown percentage special process must used add encryption keys chips , securely distributing keys special agencies , must funded monitored chips designed military contractor , whose design remain secret , manufactured special process chip becomes nearly impossible take apart \( chips offered relatively high price 30 peice lots 10 , 000 4 \) private encryption systems supporting wiretaps would require none extra costs perhaps important , government degree would least partially replace private marketplace evolution standards voice represented , encrypted , exchanged future phones widely believed governments less efficient private enterprise procuring products standards , though may perhaps perform useful role choose competing private standards much less efficient matter debate , say pay twice much , others might say 10 currently , total 96 billion spent operating expenses u phone companies 3 , comes 60 per month per access line compare wiretap value two cents per month , see wiretaps raise average operating costs even much one part 3000 , wiretaps cost effective ! n't even include extra costs phone owners pay encryption chips expensive course phones would n't encryption chips , wiretap benefit per phone still , argument still applies conclusion given dramatic difference total cost running phone system value wiretaps , justify slightest modification phone system accommodate wiretaps modification required allow investigators attach clips phone wires , wiretap support may reasonable consider substantial modification , burden proof clearly proposing modification show costs would really less benefits consensus cannot obtain cost benefit estimate , compromise might tax phones support wiretaps rate say five cents per month , tax payable police agencies nationwide compensate loss wiretap abilities 1 invisible weapon , oxford press , isbn 0 19 6 2 report applications orders authorizing approving interception wire , oral , electronic communications , 1990 , administrative office u courts , washington , dc 3 u statistical abstracts , 1992 4 dorothy denning , clipper chip technical summary , distributed sci crypt newsgroup april 21 , 1993 robin hanson hanson ptolemy arc nasa gov 415 604 ms 269 2 , nasa ames research center , moffett field , ca 94035 510 651 male terrace , fremont , ca 94539
rdippold qualcomm com \( ron asbestos dippold \) subject need clipper cheap security \? originator rdippold qualcom qualcomm com nntp posting host qualcom qualcomm com organization qualcomm , inc , san diego , ca lines 20 pdc dcs ed ac uk \( paul crowley \) writes quoting pmetzger snark shearson com \( perry e metzger \) article 1993apr21 shearson com whats difference v 32bis modem v 32bis modem \? fast fastest modems go \? far voice compressed \? 've seen various assertions , anyone straightforward bits per second figures friend forever half friend \? motorola codex preliminary v fast modem \( right \) 24 4 kbps \( raw \) standard phone lines 28 8 kbps usually claimed final v fast , ca n't go buy right , standard n't done yet , voice compressed quite well 4000 8000 bps depending good want , requires dsp special asic real time think ! think ! little engine
martin world std com \( martin j hannigan \) subject new encryption keywords sternlight , , crypt , archive , cross post , david , bart organization twisted pair consulting , boston , lines 56 article 1993apr22 zip eecs umich edu quip eecs umich edu \( dan \) writes article netcom com strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes psionic wam umd edu , whose name either unfortunate coincidence casts serious doubt bona fides , posts message seems willing take word private firm knows little new encryption algorithm secure contains trapdoors , seemingly government clipper someone please post david sternlight faq alt privacy clipper someone unfamiliar takes seriously starts yet another flame fest \? dan hello david sternlight keeper faq unfortuantely cannot find present time original faq question anyone take david sternlight serious \? fact one takes david sternlight serious review opinions cases immediately discard jerk alt fan david sternlight actually alt flame david sternlight photograph david sternlight curious \( \) \( \) c \) david sternlight , net police k proud 0 0 dick 0 0 internet david police question david continue relate mis statements regarding encryption topics \? fact david sternlight chemical imbalance right side brain martin hannigan twisted pair consulting 617 623 mac ibm pc mainframe unix
strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) subject tapped , code good organization dsi uscrpac distribution na lines 26 article rubin dsg4 dse beckman com rubin dsg4 dse beckman com \( arthur rubin \) writes would n't think asking people trust secret algorithm seems unsound maybe , 's quite common millions macintosh users idea 's apple 's patented roms many modems connected know business secrets n't stolen \? answer 1 trust apple 2 attempt , however sophicsticated , came , would destroy apple 's credibility forever clipper case , representative body experts going allowed audit , 'll assurances \( maybe even president \) escrowed keys back doors may confidence \( among \) , 's lot assurance get many things routinely trust everyday life david david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted
strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) subject screw people , crypto hard core hackers spooks organization dsi uscrpac lines 11 doug holland claims tom clancy provided recipe nuclear bombs clancy says omitted certain crucial steps , know clancy knows , rather repeating 's read told unclassified domain \? david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted
strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) subject political point attack clipper infrastructure organization dsi uscrpac lines 24 article 1993apr22 news clarkson edu tuinstra signal ece clarkson edu soe writes figures , estimate number clipper tap requests fbi expecting publish figure compare per capita basis amount tapping known suspected attorney general publishes number court ordered taps year n't enough \( around thousand \) average non crook , non spy worry fact , considering reasonable guess number big time crooks spies around , may enough even crooks spies worry 's reason believe go clipper , since number taps includes many targets stupid use encryption \( based 've heard court cases \) david david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted
gardner convex com \( steve gardner \) subject would clipper make good cover encryption method \? nntp posting host imagine convex com organization engineering , convex computer corp , richardson , tx , usa x disclaimer message written user convex computer corp opinions expressed user necessarily convex lines 20 article netcom com strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes article 1993apr20 032623 3046 eff org kadie eff org \( carl kadie \) writes , n't think replacements clipper , also think front ends makes sense government prohibits alternative non escrowed encryption schemes otherwise , use front end without clipper \? everyone expects making alternative methods encryption illegal next step otherwise cripple chip utterly worthless obvious \) cripple chip aimed spying ordinary citizens b \) forms encryption soon illegal smg
strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) subject des code shipped canada \? article netcom organization dsi uscrpac lines 16 article 1993apr22 fripp ri cadre com rj ri cadre com writes someone canada asked send public domain des file encryption code legal send \? believe illegal send cryptographic code country without export license \( others correct inaccurate \) dunno 'd get one particular code way find apply license note need distinguish legal send canada license , legal send n't david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted
strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) subject wiretapping reality today organization dsi uscrpac lines 24 messages seem reflect view government listening everything one hide one 's clipper messages somehow non escrowed crypto goes away little perspective might order number court ordered wire taps pretty low law enforcement present pretty good evidence get even limited number authorizations thus overwhelming majority conversations neither tapped recorded government , happen \) pretty good reason , evidence b \) use highest priority pretty good reasons though system may imperfect , long way horror stories seem believe anticipate david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted
strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) subject fear , uncertainty , doubt organization dsi uscrpac lines 27 article access digex net steve b access digex com \( steve brinich \) writes suspect decisive element political battle fud \( fear , uncertainty , doubt \) factor people would end users cripple chip hear whole debate vaguely government says 's solid people field say 's swiss cheese balance doubt could shift feds attempt limit forms encryption could presented government covering butt protecting poor product superior competition comments \? since asked , bit inaccurate accurate government says solid , people field might able find n't yet done review chip design , 's lot wild speculation little information might swiss cheese david david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted
strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) subject seen lobby , us article netcom organization dsi uscrpac lines 21 article apr22 yuma acns colostate edu ns111310 lance colostate edu \( nathaniel sammons \) writes 1 \) think us afford stamp envelope , cost printing letter 2 \) kind soul would write letter , upload net , everyone could capture , print , snail mail local congressional critter btw i'm working one far effective mass mailing standard letter \( taken usually represent one pressure group \) set individual letters perhaps nathaniel sammons someone else would like prepare set talking points individuals could compose letters david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted
kadie cs uiuc edu \( carl kadie \) subject political point attack clipper infrastructure organization university illinois , dept comp sci , urbana , il lines 14 strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes attorney general publishes number court ordered taps year believe mistaken n't believe ag publishes number state wiretaps carl carl kadie represent organization kadie cs uiuc edu
lyle seaman transarc com subject overreacting \( tapped , code good \) organization carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 39 distribution na nntp posting host po3 andrew cmu edu reply 1993apr22 134214 18517 rick dgbt doc ca jhan debra dgbt doc ca \( jerry han \) writes somebody asked wrong overreacting cases probably meant nobody yet seemed jerry suggesting people currently overreacting , vehemently disagree see lot talk , much action see misunderstood jerry 's position reason simple many people want die riot \? new civil war \? everybody jumping screaming , i'm worried people going reach hammers rifles pens paper bunch 'll bitch net , go back lurking people work within system trying break \? examine history books , find many armed revolutions led democratic \( democratic style \) governments think 'll find one five thousand years written history actually , 's quite bad , 's close look , \( collectively \) power throw bums , n't use clearly n't need go burning things , clearly need throw least bums unfortunately , bums learned target small groups people single time , masses wo n't react throw eventually , masses react , unless bums cease relentless encroachment liberty economy sooner happens , less damages n't want live war zone , either want see bums thrown real damage lyle transarc 707 grant street 412 338 4474 gulf tower pittsburgh 15219
calkin gatech \( neil calkin \) subject political point attack clipper infrastructure article calkin 1993apr22 news clarkson edu netcom com cs uiuc edu organization home math calkin organization lines 22 nntp posting host gatech edu reply kadie cs uiuc edu 's message thu , 22 apr 1993 21 39 44 gmt article cs uiuc edu kadie cs uiuc edu \( carl kadie \) writes strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes attorney general publishes number court ordered taps year believe mistaken n't believe ag publishes number state wiretaps carl carl kadie represent organization kadie cs uiuc edu hmmm could 3 keys kept escrow , one groups keeping key government , states would need federal permission run wiretap interesting possibility \) neil
pmetzger snark shearson com \( perry e metzger \) subject clipper considered harmful article lehman 1993apr22 222016 organization partnership america free drug lines 22 brad optilink com \( brad yearwood \) writes clipper comes cellular phones along legal using cipher systems phones , new potentially dangerous class crime created criminals badly want inscrutable tactical communications \( specifically terrorists drug dealers proponents key escrow cite threats \) highly motivated steal cipher phone legitimate user , kill person hold hostage discovery compromise device delayed obviously n't read information system chips put serial number infomation cypher stream allow identified system rely registering people owning particular phone units proposal , lets accurate objections perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire , laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
lefty apple com \( lefty \) subject freely distributable public key cryptography c code \? organization lady heavy artillery lines 26 article netcom com , grady netcom com \( 1016 2ef221 \) wrote victor iseli \( victori xetron com \) wrote numerical recipes c fortran pascal nice section encryption decryption based des algorithm also source code provided \( think versions book distributed source code disk source code also ordered publisher \) victor iseli victori xetron com yes des implementation recipes c book 1 1 2 orders magnitude slower outerbridge karn gillogly et al implementation may instructional , n't fast also apparently second edition lefty \( lefty apple com \) c c ,
pmetzger snark shearson com \( perry e metzger \) subject celp article lehman 1993apr22 organization partnership america free drug lines 28 gtoal gtoal com \( graham toal \) writes absolutely meant secure dedicated crypto device ever given approval guerrilla underground devices well possible today 's high speed modems \( think many v32bis modems approved either mind overpriced couriers \) someone tell hardware compression needed run digital speech 14 4k \? think 've heard 's lets say 8 bit samples would raw data corresponding sampling rate usable \? , fancy compression need \? said celp run highest speed 486s room spare turn \( 8 bit samples , 8k samples sec \) 4800 baud however , dsp hairy , yet see actual proof form implementation heard fairly reliable rumors effect famous guru celp implementation runs sparcstation 1 's room spare , succeeded thus far getting hands copy guru question reputation releasing code without beaten long time first dsp experts heavily encouraged try hand problem perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire , laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
koontzd phobos lrmsc loral com \( david koontz \) subject key escrow enough \? organization loral rolm computer systems distribution world lines 48 denning guvax acc georgetown edu revised , april 21 , 1993 chips programmed mykotronx , inc , calls myk 78 silicon supplied vlsi technology inc clipper chips programmed inside scif \( secure information facility \) , essentially vault scif contains laptop computer equipment program chips 300 chips programmed single session scif located mykotronx acknowledgment distribution notice article based information provided nsa , nist , fbi , mykotronx permission distribute document granted , mykotronx , inc \? would nice know front company used intelligence agency u government , chip design \( \) examined verified silicon insure trap doors hidden protocols exist silicon , regardless security level encryption algorithm proof chip wo n't role someone proper knowledge interrogate via communications link design examination done gate level also , one verify looking reflected , masks \? silicon examined well , design hand \( clean room publicly defined clipper chip \) merged another design later , changed completion mask little proof told chip chip put \( verified \) masks escrow , use chip production , use third escrow party programming chips government asking lot blind trust encryption algorithm , operating protocols , agency physical control devices , silicon implementation government trustworthy , escrow anything \?
pmetzger snark shearson com \( perry e metzger \) subject screw people , crypto hard core hackers spooks organization partnership america free drug lines 34 amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) writes need alternative nsa bugged telephones , 're talking inexpensive telephones , including hand sized , need strong crypto , real privacy start company build still mostly capitalist economy qualcomm spare cycles dsps new cdma digital cellular phones wanted put strong crypto since capacity government decided discourage really , none stuff especially hard need true private phone isdn codec , vocoder \( either chip software \) , encryptor \( chip fine , software fast enough \) , v 32 v 32bis modem module , maybe microcontroller run whole thing easy , cheap normal company trying put one likely get visit boys dark suits washington , like qualcomm suspect companies like cylink tolerated products expensive however , law yet stops one building really private phones , spite hints administration made discussing new crime bill connection clipper skipjack big brother chip someone build unit better yet , prehaps someone produce package turns 486 box sound card secure phone perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire , laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
grady netcom com \( 1016 2ef221 \) subject transparent cyphertext \? organization capriccioso x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 16 \( 34aej7d cmuvm bitnet \) wrote light recent events , may soon become good idea include ability produce transparent , least non obvious , cyphertext upcoming revisions wo n't help nsa axis requires messages undergo textual analysis reduction canonical form eliminate concealed messages reading several national computer security center documents , i'm convinced already using filter grady netcom com 2ef221 15 e2 ad d3 d1 c6 f3 fc 58 ac f7 3d 4f 01 1e 2f
arussell austin ibm com \( ag russell \) subject shelf cheap des keyseach machine \( corporate acceptance wiretap chip \) originator arussell pal500 austin ibm com organization ibm austin lines 54 article strnlghtc5wcmo fx5 netcom com , strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes article c5uvn4 mf7 austin ibm com arussell austin ibm com \( ag russell \) writes company worked previously , received file des encryped person sent , went vaction rather wait two weeks set straight frontal attack one key time took two \( 2 \) days crack file , n't faith des taking face value \( though seems quite dissonant much else published brute force des cracking , unless russell lucky respect key \) , 'd interested whether program russell used available \? whether used cleartext recognition algorithm program whether examine decryption hand \? whether used known plaintext attack \? given certain archival methods certain key \( cleartext \) file used dictionary attack used des library provided system using keep anyone lucky key \? probably also tell us , given address , machine used desktop , workstation , super computer previous employment nothing current address , fact fastest machine office ibm risc system 6000 model 530 , 16 meg memory \( super computer \) depending answer , could appalling development calling question des rsa des dunno rsa idea really think statement limitations placed key interface \( ascii char padding \) , programs n't bother clear archival front id 's bright programmer little idle machine time crack single des message couple days \( assuming tricks message specific \) , 's clipper key , nsa give chip \) yes bright programmer little idle machine time , crack todays real world encryption sure could select key , prepare data decryption become worst case real world , i'm sure agency would start attack message , pointed , good recognition algorithms availible , i'm familiar g g russell dept section pals group vm id email arussell austin ibm com phone 512 838 7953 678 7953 views , anyone else would look silly free berkeley 4 4
rens imsi com \( rens troost \) subject overreacting \( tapped , code good \) reply rens imsi com \( rens troost \) distribution na organization investment management services , inc lines 65 reply jhan debra dgbt doc ca 's message 22 apr 93 13 42 14 gmt article 1993apr22 134214 18517 rick dgbt doc ca jhan debra dgbt doc ca \( jerry han \) writes giant bally ho clipper chip noticed rather disturbing trend e mail posts 've tossing back forth tendency part people hide head sand reason simple many people want die riot \? new civil war \? many people want jailed convictions , insistence real privacy \? sit quietly preconditions real civil war put place short sighted government everybody jumping screaming , i'm worried people going reach hammers rifles pens paper terminal pen \) people work within system trying break \? examine history books , find many armed revolutions led democratic \( democratic style \) governments think 'll find one five thousand years written history really \? guess mean u revolution england , india , mexico , france , holland 's good odds misinformed whole issue topic somebody said something like armed violence meant used response armed attack meant used agression difference self defence murder cops kick door using pgp , tell 're exercising \( called , rapidly narrowing \) right free speech i'm probably overreacting 've read scared lot n't want children growing war zone perhaps talk government disciple david cops friends sternlight \? implied threat private crypto , subtle subtext clipper announcement , worries n't want children growing police state rens disclaimer opinions herein mine mine alone , necessarily represent organization may affiliated j troost unix systems work rens imsi com investment management svcs , inc play rens century com 12 east 49th street , 35th floor phone \( 212 \) 339 new york , new york fax \( 212 \) 444 1980 ims unlikely share opinions
steve b access digex com \( steve brinich \) subject overreacting \( tapped , code good \) organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 5 distribution na nntp posting host access digex net intent cut government knees pen \( keyboard \) true , lawyer go far , agree best use resources maximum extent seriously contemplating anything disruptive
steve b access digex com \( steve brinich \) subject tapped , code good organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 14 distribution na nntp posting host access digex net maybe , 's quite common millions macintosh users idea 's apple 's patented roms many modems connected know business secrets n't stolen \? answer 1 trust apple 2 attempt , however sophicsticated , came , would destroy apple 's credibility forever reason could theoretically trust apple \( though i'm pc person \) \) apple worry customers deserting screw badly enough government n't worry change rules force get outcome wants ultimate reason private enterprise usually efficient government agencies
mjs behemoth genetics wisc edu \( mike schmelzer \) subject secret algorithm clipper chip crypto key escrow apr18 204843 50316 yuma acns colostate edu strnlghtc5pucl 6kp netcom com organization uw lines 18 reply strnlght netcom com 's message mon , 19 apr 1993 05 38 45 gmt article strnlghtc5pucl 6kp netcom com strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes article apr18 204843 50316 yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu \( douglas craig holland \) writes let ask would trust richard nixon crypto keys \? would n't take mean president nixon , private citizen nixon sure nothing i'm would slightest interest president nixon mr sternlight , naivete historical ignorance appalling history lesson detailing 1968 74 deleted mike schmelzer , mjs genetics wisc edu , \( 608 \) 262 finger pgp people n't riot minute saw film waited justice never came ice
mjr tis com \( marcus j ranum \) subject screw people , crypto hard core hackers spooks organization trusted information systems , inc lines 28 nntp posting host sol tis com pmetzger snark shearson com \( perry e metzger \) writes really , none stuff especially hard need true private phone isdn codec , vocoder \( either chip software \) , encryptor \( chip fine , software fast enough \) , v 32 v 32bis modem module , maybe microcontroller run whole thing easy , cheap normal company trying put one likely get visit boys dark suits washington , like qualcomm feds shut people making sound blaster \? apple next \? apple , next , sun , others make systems handle cd quality audio , perform arbitrary transformation process transmitting across network modem perhaps 's market portable vocoder crypto device , simply rs232 voice converter make capable recording speech playing back simultaneously applications multimedia , computing handicapped , internet talk radio , irc , etc , etc , etc would n't cryptographic device suppose someone could hooked 486 laptop v 32bis modem crypto software 'd market thing api text speech using simple ability use speech samples , course , 'd publish interface folks could write applications wanted talk thing mjr
tauren rigel cs pdx edu \( tauren n mills \) subject thoughts questions article pdxgate lines 35 joined group recently really know much cryptography , couple things came mind reading posts 1 clipper chip going exported \? , people communicate countries \? un crypt mode encryption techniques legal \( assuming government cracks using others \) going overseas , within states \? 2 've read authentication systems use electronic security card looks like calculator create encrypted pin based time date host system algorithm built well authenticate user form encryption technology would create keys valid certain instant time \? systems would allow window time around instant key would work realize technique would increase amount information needing stored would need entire algorithms rather keys smaller scale things might work could similar method used make two 80 bit keys issued police fbi etc tap phone usable one week \( instance \) needed , would go back escrow service get another key would make useless local police database keys used assume possible receiving phone would need able message thoughts subject \? thanks , tauren mills tauren mills tauren rigel cs pdx edu
jon c r bennett jb7m andrew cmu edu subject ideas clipper organization robotics institute , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 71 nntp posting host andrew cmu edu reply mycroft rand org jim gillogly jim mycroft rand org writes article andrew cmu edu write suppose knew algorithm worked knew n chip , know f , cryptanalysis might able determine f law enforcement field e e k u n f knowing n would might make much harder 're betting ca n't , even know n even know e , fact , 're trying keep secret find e grinding chip , presumably find f well ca n't right des , even knowing encryption method without almost whole 56 bit search true , chosen plaintext attacks des keys determined without full search suppose know f , \( either legitimately \) , know k \( either involved conversation , know u party conversation \) , may able determine u party , 're betting ca n't find u given k e claim encryption strong \( trust us \) willing take bet know f also defeat law enforcement field , since could make , different k one using knowing f also allows traffic analysis performed might know saying could know saying i'm sure 'll way shove arbitrary key data chip , , part 's ok \( 're assuming e unknown \) obviously shove arbitrary data chip key , stated key exchange external chip , pick keys admit someone trying compute u lots messages work , since way knowing key generation method \( deliberately \? \) generate weak keys , matter published method fact used , perhaps u 's chosen know weak keys system assume wo n't able find u matter many messages could break u , would n't need key escrow bing bing bing bing bing , exactly point , since cant know capability , safe assumption admit cryptographic complaints probably unfounded , since cant know one way , im take word obviously compromise f would disaster , law enforcement whole thing designed , people believe giving security f one number , sure alot people \( 1 \) know \( panel experts going check flaws many know f , forget grinding chips , bribery blackmail work fine 's clear experts told f fact , 'd surprised 'd expect something form fips pub describing des , could look algorithm general , rather specific set keys chosen oh come , thats like saying could evaluate des without box constants jon
rschnapp metaflow com \( russ \) subject overreacting \( tapped , code good \) keywords paranoia cryptography clipper nntp posting host organization metaflow technologies inc distribution na lines 24 article 1993apr22 134214 18517 rick dgbt doc ca , jhan debra dgbt doc ca \( jerry han \) writes giant bally ho clipper chip noticed rather disturbing trend e mail posts 've tossing back forth somebody asked wrong overreacting cases reason simple many people want die riot \? new civil war \? everybody jumping screaming , i'm worried people going reach hammers rifles pens paper well , know one person ready kill victim whole topic , please stop copying crap comp org acm please \? russ email netcom ! metaflow ! rschnapp rschnapp metaflow com rschnapp bix com metaflow technologies voice 619 452 fax 619 452 la jolla , california unless specified , i`m speaking !
holland cs colostate edu \( douglas craig holland \) subject new encryption nntp posting host beethoven cs colostate edu organization colorado state university , computer science department lines 38 article netcom com strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes psionic wam umd edu , whose name either unfortunate coincidence casts serious doubt bona fides , posts message seems willing take word private firm knows little new encryption algorithm secure contains trapdoors , seemingly government clipper couple reasons would likely trust algorithm 1 algorithm made totally public , patented 2 keys escrowed course either true , use new algorithm since never seen new algorithm , idea secure yet suppose depends paranoid one wishes , writer know firm n't , example , nsa front \? purposes message , know psionic n't \? n't suggest , post point class speculation truth value , without lots hard evidence , contrary one way , psionic said , lower case letters , firm claims back door , 'd problem phrasing ca n't make judgements algorithm yet , notice creators algorithm open thing works , willing make public , showing bit scrutiny , weaknesses probably revealed , n't know clipper doug holland doug holland anyone tries take away freedom holland cs colostate edu speech pry pgp key available e mail cold , dead lips ! !
wcs anchor ho att com \( bill stewart 1 908 949 0705 \) subject shelf cheap des keyseach machine \( corporate acceptance wiretap chip \) organization best minds generation , destroyed madness reply ebrandt jarthur claremont edu 's message wed , 21 apr 1993 22 34 15 gmt keywords penn could sneak key generation vault keys nsa probably 1993apr21 132318 16981 ulysses att com news claremont edu nntp posting host rainier ho att com lines 26 article news claremont edu ebrandt jarthur claremont edu \( eli brandt \) writes article 1993apr21 132318 16981 ulysses att com smb research att com \( steven bellovin \) writes remember 've promised let committee outside experts see cryptosystem design hope silicon jocks committee follow algorithm hardware doubt nsa would pull monkey business point expect chip reverse engineered sooner later 's obvious opportunity introduce additional holes chip n't place pull monkey business key generation , either mathematical backdoor , program laptop supposedly generates keys also save copy s1 s2 leak somehow , program supposedly puts official keys chip actually put different key \( hard detect , since escrow agents either trust nsa laptop give keys , still n't know algorithm \) chip burner factory make copies keys whatever pray peace bill bill stewart 1 908 949 0705 wcs anchor att com bell labs 4m312 holmdel nj , i'm new jersey , work cyberspace white house commect line 1 202 456 1111 fax 1 202 456 2461
rlglende netcom com \( robert lewis glendenning \) subject need clipper cheap security \? organization netcom online communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 15 chips perform voice compression expansion ca n't expensive , exist many phones connected line cards , well lot equipment compresses voice grade circuits save cost long distance , satellite circuits ca n't remember generic term chips impression big deal 10 years ago , circuits gotten cheap n't done much lew lew glendenning rlglende netcom com perspective worth 80 iq points niels bohr \( somebody like \)
rdippold qualcomm com \( ron asbestos dippold \) subject wiretapping reality today originator rdippold qualcom qualcomm com nntp posting host qualcom qualcomm com organization qualcomm , inc , san diego , ca lines 24 strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes messages seem reflect view government listening everything one hide one 's clipper messages somehow non escrowed crypto goes away little perspective might order right people believe government listening everything sure ca n't provide answer , change assumptions something deal 's matter government listening everything , 's matter government listening anyone take interest say , something heinous like attend computer meeting mall , secret service decides go search , name 's matter number possible wiretap abuses cryptology makes far less likely , chip sabotage par course , though predicted 'd jumping favor reply 'd justify anything including death camps long government backed written policy statement perhaps little extreme , much seattle indian word meaning 52 degrees raining
wcs anchor ho att com \( bill stewart 1 908 949 0705 \) subject need clipper cheap security \? organization best minds generation , destroyed madness reply pdc dcs ed ac uk 's message wed , 21 apr 1993 20 41 57 gmt dcs ed ac uk nntp posting host rainier ho att com lines 25 article dcs ed ac uk pdc dcs ed ac uk \( paul crowley \) writes fast fastest modems go \? v fast targeted 14 500 , 19 2 may soon \( remember ignore compression figures make modem go faster data , voice gets compressed better , encryption makes compression impossible \) far voice compressed \? stu iii phones market , motorola , \( forget else \) , give choice 9600 , 4800 , 2400 baud 9600 4800 celp , think 2400 earlier military vocoder stuff 9600 decent , 2400 pretty artificial , anything less speak spell produce quite adequate sound 's also 8 kbps celp around dsps made possible real time cheap old hand government crypto trouble adjusting systems faster 9600 baud , voice end sounds good , assume crypto n't turned yet \) pray peace bill bill stewart 1 908 949 0705 wcs anchor att com bell labs 4m312 holmdel nj , i'm new jersey , work cyberspace white house commect line 1 202 456 1111 fax 1 202 456 2461
holland cs colostate edu \( douglas craig holland \) subject screw people , crypto hard core hackers spooks nntp posting host beethoven cs colostate edu organization colorado state university , computer science department lines 22 article 46l netcom com strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes doug holland claims tom clancy provided recipe nuclear bombs clancy says omitted certain crucial steps , know clancy knows , rather repeating 's read told unclassified domain \? tom clancy omitted key steps try prevent groups people building nuclear bomb however , asserts find key steps university library main point five minutes midnight impossible prevent proliferation nuclear weapons , since become easy acquire knowledge build one , materials nearly impossible control read article , better yet , run library dig stuff constructing nuclear weapon doug holland doug holland anyone tries take away freedom holland cs colostate edu speech pry pgp key available e mail cold , dead lips ! !
rlglende netcom com \( robert lewis glendenning \) subject screw people , crypto hard core hackers spooks organization netcom online communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 35 article sunb ocs mq edu au ifarqhar laurel ocs mq edu au \( ian farquhar \) writes article 19930419 305 almaden ibm com ameline vnet ibm com \( ian ameline \) writes also believe someone reverse engineer clipper chip , knowlege algorithm likely fairly widespread back doors weaknesses would discredit scheme , help grow market demand secure alternative companies \( one canada , recall \) specialize analyzing chips understand process technology , design rules , understand probable yield assembly line making , therefore probable current cost possible future cost curves , given design , statistical quality control better yields , etc taiwanese , japanese especially korean semiconductor manufacturers \( korea continues \) reverse engineered foreign chips produced chip taiwan japan signed intellectual property treaties , least extract gate level design laying chip koreans still use mask level copying , believe least , lot pressure pass laws meet international intellectual property standards despite lots attempts hide designs lots techniques hardware software design complex chip , real intellectual effort extracting gate design transistor design , algorithm gate design wo n't take two smart guys even 6 months , working 40 hour weeks koreans work 60 8 \) lew lew glendenning rlglende netcom com perspective worth 80 iq points niels bohr \( somebody like \)
stephen j andrew cmu edu subject encryption chip availibility organization junior , mechanical engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 9 nntp posting host po5 andrew cmu edu hi everybody ! anyone know companies currently manufacturing encryption chips sale general public \? get ! pointers would greatly appreciated thanks steve
jim rand org \( jim gillogly \) subject ideas clipper organization banzai institute lines 50 nntp posting host mycroft rand org annoyed find guy posted private e mail response , since believe said , 'll defend anyway article andrew cmu edu jb7m andrew cmu edu \( jon c r bennett \) writes jim gillogly jim mycroft rand org writes \( private e mail \) 're betting ca n't e get u given n ca n't right des , even knowing encryption method without almost whole 56 bit search true , chosen plaintext attacks des keys determined without full search almost mean differential cryptanalysis attack chosen plaintext attack requires detailed analysis 2 36 chosen plaintexts drawn total 2 47 need run , understand situation correctly certainly break meaning act , constitute much less work brute force keysearch rest article assumes figure skipjack encryption algorithm e choosing correct data send observe results wish joy , choose try attack defending system , fact offended ideas escrowed keys secret algorithm becoming de facto industry standard however , also object opposing wrong reasons , since case said \( private e mail \) 's clear experts told f fact , 'd surprised 'd expect something form fips pub describing des , could look algorithm general , rather specific set keys chosen oh come , thats like saying could evaluate des without box constants , 's quite different government would percentage choosing f weak key , since 's advantage anybody else know experts could thus assume f worse anything else analysis totally different situation unknown boxes , i'm saying would good satisfactory experts given raw algorithm without rest surrounding details regarding chip protocols simply doubt would given information jim gillogly trewesday , 2 r 1993 , 03 01
cme ellisun sw stratus com \( carl ellison \) subject text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption organization stratus computer , software engineering lines 20 nntp posting host ellisun sw stratus com article rwing uucp pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) writes example , conversation suspect lawyer longer private big brother eavesdropping , almost 100 years later , right words problem phone calls virtual visits experienced virtual reality would know title phone calls need properties walk park friend security casual easy verification see anyone listening designed , fail trouble , telephones invented long time ago people n't realize danger concept virtual reality back disclaimer opinions expressed , course carl ellison cme sw stratus com stratus computer inc m3 2 bkw tel \( 508 \) 460 2783 55 fairbanks boulevard marlborough 01752 1298 fax \( 508 \) 624 7488
cme ellisun sw stratus com \( carl ellison \) subject need clipper cheap security \? organization stratus computer , software engineering lines 30 nntp posting host ellisun sw stratus com article news claremont edu ebrandt jarthur claremont edu \( eli brandt \) writes remember announcement described scheme balancing two extremes privacy claiming citizens constitutional right encryption \? much clinton 's support right privacy 's announcement talked strong cryptography believe specifically u saying every american , matter right , entitled unbreakable commercial encryption product every vendor claims product unbreakable sloppy wording claiming private citizens access nsa 's best , secret algorithms n't want nsa algorithms , actually 'll let break pitiful amateur algorithms rsa 's want already ability right invent use algorithms , share friends sell disclaimer opinions expressed , course carl ellison cme sw stratus com stratus computer inc m3 2 bkw tel \( 508 \) 460 2783 55 fairbanks boulevard marlborough 01752 1298 fax \( 508 \) 624 7488
cme ellisun sw stratus com \( carl ellison \) subject write clinton organization stratus computer , software engineering lines 14 distribution world nntp posting host ellisun sw stratus com 've reading sci crypt , alt privacy clipper comp org eff talk discussions clipper chip find \( usual \) us think alike 's lot messages sent clinton well net \( instead net \) , might actually effect 0005895485 mcimail com \( white house \) disclaimer opinions expressed , course carl ellison cme sw stratus com stratus computer inc m3 2 bkw tel \( 508 \) 460 2783 55 fairbanks boulevard marlborough 01752 1298 fax \( 508 \) 624 7488
cme ellisun sw stratus com \( carl ellison \) subject organized lobbying cryptography organization stratus computer , software engineering lines 18 distribution inet nntp posting host ellisun sw stratus com article 1r3jgbinn35i eli cs yale edu jgfoot minerva cis yale edu writes perhaps encryption types would defend digitized porn posted encrypted \? issues seperable maintain paraphrase , may agree 're encrypting , defend right encrypt disclaimer opinions expressed , course carl ellison cme sw stratus com stratus computer inc m3 2 bkw tel \( 508 \) 460 2783 55 fairbanks boulevard marlborough 01752 1298 fax \( 508 \) 624 7488
stephen j andrew cmu edu subject encryption chips organization junior , mechanical engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 8 distribution inet nntp posting host po3 andrew cmu edu anyone know get hold secure encrypting chips devices banned completely \? ! \? steve encryption outlawed , outlaws encryption
artmel well sf ca us \( arthur melnick \) subject new encryption algorithm summary history nea keywords nea nntp posting host well sf ca us organization whole earth 'lectronic link , sausalito , ca lines 76 ever since craig posted piece new encryption sci crypt discussion company , secured communications technologies , inc , encryption algorithm , nea spoke craig length 4 21 93 covered lot ground information posting requires clarification , would like answer questions raised sci crypt sct small company based silver spring maryland two main products time pc based secure communications program called secom general purpose encryption chip uses nea algorithm developed secom secom provides encrypted secure communication link two pc 's connected dial telephone lines supports simultaneous bi directional file transfer keyboard screen chat proprietary communications protocol tightly integrated encryption though link , data stream appears continuous packet boundaries hidden secom initially developed , implemented use des encryption business decision made seek export approval product perceived overseas market large one provided good marketing opportunity soon found would never granted general export approval anything using des though reason never explicitly stated , seems something secret government government agreements still effect event , decision made develop new different algorithm would take place des reason nea \( new encryption algorithm \) born time nea held trade secret preliminary work begun , plan make public patent process complete though one make certain legal arguments keeping ongoing secret , think case encryption algorithm necessary let people shoot extended period time prove worth order get export approval secom nea , necessary go nsa reveal details program algorithm done finished product submit let state unequivocally back door program algorithm secured communications technologies closely held private company nsa fbi cia nist whatever financial interest way whatsoever company people involved practical business standpoint , interested selling chips software \( hopefully large quantities \) back door encryption , found , could destroy credibility business encryption algorithm approved export , set talk number potential customers encryption products systems able identify several common threads functionality requirements led design chip encryption algorithm cast silicon certain capabilities added chip could fulfill broad range requirements identified strongly opposed clipper capstone chips press release today , president , dr stephen stated seems government unlimited source funds use push new bugged chips american public understand national security agency , supposed involved domestic spying , fund development commercial chip intended accommodate u government domestic spying activities asked put back door nea would told g f ed nsa break nea \? matter break des , rsa , idea , hellman , pgp , rc2 , rc4 , whatever \? n't know probably never
quilty twain ucs umass edu \( lulu lotus \) subject info mathematics encryption wanted organization university massachusetts , amherst lines 25 distribution world nntp posting host twain ucs umass edu signed group , hope i'm missing something faq , i'm looking good introduction mathematics encryption particularly des public key , though others would interesting also probably good library could help , thought might even easier could obtain nice article entirely electronically \( besides , rather rational phobia libraries reasons stemming dissertation thing hanging head \) \) basic knowledge mathematics number theory bit unfamiliar , 've graduate level math courses areas anyway , i'm complete novice field probably something aimed basic graduate introductory level would right something , anyway , specific really big prime number generated code message someone knows good text available ftp \( gopher \) , would like email one please let know 'll probably keep reading group would nice would email time , n't miss thanx , lulu message brought enterprises quilty umass edu opinions expressed must employer surely n't think believe !
merlin lerami lerctr org \( david hayes \) subject secret source announcement distribution inet organization bloody likely ! lines 51 article dns1 nmsu edu amolitor nmsu edu \( andrew molitor \) writes article netcom com grady netcom com \( 1016 2ef221 \) writes get buck , 2nd hand , must true , eh \? i'm pretty sure nsa supposed , among many things , provide high quality cryptosystems variety places n't recall reading anywhere reliable 're supposed 1 \) monitor phonecalls 2 \) monitor usenet 3 \) provide cryptosystems easily crack 4 \) etc etc say n't , might n't know , evidence , almost values follows , therefore , values 'you' , claims nsa border paranoia andrew ok , andrew , 'll provide evidence friend mine worked electronics manufacturer west coast office routinely sold equipment japanese one day , japanese started showing discount demands amazingly close cost manufacture products company routinely sent manufacturing data field offices japanese simply intercepted friend , computer systems admin , came solution started sending data double block encrypted des two days new distribution plan implemented , president company got visit pair government agents told knock president gave , since company considerable business federal government , government n't monitoring communications , would even know encryption system installed \? , since tion n't illegal , des certainly n't , basis government 's cease desist demand \? spooks whatever think necessary , without blessings law 'll say thanks clipper , anything else government produces moment , double triple des probably adequate line idle , send random garbage , keep 'em busy david hayes merlin lerami lerctr org
uni acs bu edu \( shaen bernhardt \) subject overreacting \( tapped , code good \) distribution na organization boston university , boston , , usa lines 82 article 1993apr22 134214 18517 rick dgbt doc ca jhan debra dgbt doc ca \( jerry han \) writes giant bally ho clipper chip noticed rather disturbing trend e mail posts 've tossing back forth somebody asked wrong overreacting cases reason simple many people want die riot \? new civil war \? everybody jumping screaming , i'm worried people going reach hammers rifles pens paper people work within system trying break \? circut court judge illinois said dealing government seeks continually new creative ways spy its' citizenry , one cannot discourage move empower common citizen means parry attack personal privacy \( unfortunately comment regard banning radar detectors \) point remains see government slowly washing away privacy even unwittingly think ever live soceity issues smart cards citizens birth \? think live soceity insists register crypto keys keep track i'm saying \? even evidence guilt \? think ever live soceity seeks meddle affairs its' citizenry without recourse kind \? i'm tired \( imho \) compromise administration seeks implement proposals guise enhancing privacy proposals , read language press releases , obvious deception involved presenting pieces public , sickened revolted repulsed 90 , perhaps even 95 country could care less clipper chip , wiretap bill , smart card , rhetoric clinton administration frightens conserveative believe law order conserveative move centralized regime really scares , mostly know cant go far wrong intelligence american people tell 's going keep safe drug dealers terrorists , let put cameras home even wake waco , find support increasingly moves somebody said something like armed violence meant used response armed attack meant used agression difference self defence murder quite honest , way things going , 'd call self defense let 's try avoid killing things , eh \? 's enough blood shed world , without adding couple riots , civil wars , etc i'm probably overreacting 've read scared lot n't want children growing war zone dont want mine eyes security camera 24 hours day jerry han crc doc div behavioural research jhan debra dgbt doc ca opinions , opinions proud frozen member mighty warriors band memories 've left behind , still ringing ears genesis uni uni acs bu edu public keys finger request public key archives pgp public keys pgp iastate edu sovereignty sign brutal past fight clinton 's wiretap chip ! df610670f2467b99 97de2b5c3749148c crypto crime ! ask !
tcmay netcom com \( timothy c may \) subject estimating wiretap costs benefits organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 lines 32 robin hanson \( hanson kronos arc nasa gov \) wrote would wiretap chip cost effective \? summary compared average monthly phone bill sixty dollars , wiretaps worth two cents month police proposed wiretap chip must raise phone costs less one part three thousand cost effective robin 's calculation interesting important , even 's order magnitude \( example \) even hardware costs clipper chip phones zero , protocol overhead transmitting escrow field would much higher 1 part 3 thousand depends exact details phone call length , protocol , etc \( shorter calls get proportionately greater hit \) however , suspect americans find line reasoning persuasive analogies escrowing keys one 's house tim may timothy c may crypto anarchy encryption , digital money , tcmay netcom com anonymous networks , digital pseudonyms , zero 408 688 5409 knowledge , reputations , information markets , w e aptos , ca black markets , collapse governments higher power 2 756839 public key pgp mailsafe available
pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) subject clipper chip technical summary organization totally unorganized lines 119 article 1993apr19 3420 guvax acc georgetown edu denning guvax acc georgetown edu writes following document summarizes clipper chip , used , programming chip coupled key generation escrow process , law enforcement decrypts communications interesting tell us , happens say ok , want something else law enforcement wants traffic , record , get search warrant , get keys , like would keys stout private safe , etc \( lets say suspect way trivially crack fed level , warrant , say nsa scanning keywords , etc , government abused great power past \) say mr vendor , want something different , independent paranoid sort , ya understand result sorry , without government permission , cannot sell anything secure , would sorry , know side bread , cannot sell except government people , law enforcement , 'special' people , opinion , would chances sure , sell secure system happy also , please kind tell us plans private encryption , say files transferred modem , ftp , data stored disk \? surely feel administration planning us people rather intimate relationship fbi , nsa , etc must certainly idea surely going say people know , late supposed government people people , n't \? , people government 's bosses \? bosses want know \( \) \( going see , kind nervous , last month , seen non stop stream ideas coming wash dc least appear strongly common trait limit privacy \( freedom govt eavesdropping \) , ability defend violent attack \( , 911 good enough , arrive time clean mess would dead depend 911 \) see , talk national smart id cards , limiting encryption , denial means effective personal defense \( eight bills congress right \) , looks awfully lot like whole thing able trace every activity individual cradle grave would take requiring national id card used transactions effective data protection , people suitably disarmed , would helluva lot could , would \? name war er drugs , course catch word wrong good old fashioned police work build case \? n't want burdened leave office , seems please read bill rights \( first ten amendments us constitution \) tell us reconcile big brother ish policy administration \( always kind , n't \? \) bill rights context people wrote \? reassure us please \( longer regarded necessary , seeing apparantly people input agenda , administration preferring make decisions secret , us \) n't sound much like people cannot help notice congress people involved mentioned press release find little bit curious , n't \? sure would like know vote come election time yes , upset feel part , recall posting heavily favor similar idea \( could thing , close \) months ago also recall well received apparantly powers really n't care \( told , \) see , clipper useful conversations n't want neighborhood kid listening serious security n't think would want trust bit might well use cleartext certainly corporations would rather dumb depend serious trade secret data , especially millions depended security given enough money , one could buy keys wanted buy crooked judge , crooked cop given hundred thou , would n't hard find , end criminals , terrorists , government real security , ability eavesdrop know first two , serious , ai n't going use thing communications bet government wo n't , either \( except perhaps order pizza \) tell us , prima face evidence criminal activity , someone using methods \? desire privacy longer regarded legitimate right unconnected citizen \? grounds fly door raid , confiscation one 's equipment , 'terrorist tools' , using civil forfeiture , inconvenient need prove wrongdoing part citizen \? yet another question , going see articles public magazines , consisting soothing text telling us great , nice government letting us illusion privacy \? government going kind let us exercise right \? want bet correct \? please answer questions citizens united states , right know government plans us goodness hearts funny thing , though proposals , n't feel one bit safer drug dealers , terrorists , common street thug beginning wonder greater danger lies entities , government gone control \? assure us , please far , n't seen much reassure lot greatly disturb pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc 1 207 \( pat myrto \) seattle , wa else fails , try ! uunet ! pilchuck ! rwing ! pat wisdom two things infinite universe human stupidity , sure former albert einstien
steve b access digex com \( steve brinich \) subject fear , uncertainty , doubt organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 21 nntp posting host access digex net accurate government says solid , people field might able find n't yet done review chip design , 's lot wild speculation little information might swiss cheese oh , puts debate excellent terms side feds people saying clipper insecure n't real information support judgment fine show information would prove wrong feds 's secret ! comes , looks suspiciously like government official pasting top secret stamps embarrasing information order save hide fact , framing secrecy issue perspective likely turn joe 's suspicions feds constitutional argument point urge others pro freedom side consider making case
c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu \( john kelsey \) subject clipper considered harmful nntp posting host mizzou1 missouri edu organization university missouri lines 32 clipper chip 's user key formed r1 e e n1 s1 s2 s1 r2 e e n2 s1 s2 s1 r3 e e n3 s1 s2 s1 triple encrytion used \? gain effective increase keyspace defeat potential keysearch \? \( , use 80 bit keys \? \) knowing anything skipjack algorithm , 's really possible guess whether makes harder easier guess s1 , s2 n1 , n2 , n3 formed \? would facinating see skipjack algorithm , look ways attacking require three ciphertext blocks formed odd way 34 bit constant values concatenated serial number form n1 , n2 , n3 come \? changed chip chip , session session \? \( even 're published ny times , skipjack resistant known plaintext attacks , using triple encryption , 's break security allow kind weird format \? three 34 bit values truly random bits , maybe 's used ensure known plaintext attack skipjack , exists , ca n't easily used derive s1 s2 whole production run chips \) dorothy denning read group \? , someone group forwarding questions like , martin hellman , anyone else 's seen details chip \? john kelsey
steve b access digex com \( steve brinich \) subject key escrow enough \? organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 14 distribution world nntp posting host access digex net points raised checking actually chip , opposed allegedly programmed therein , raise yet another trust issue even assume trusted agents really entering wide range s1 s2 seeds \( rather using one time reduce key search space 30 bits \) , assume picking iron filing poking circuitry carefully selected points encode data would presumably punching numbers computer , know could program chips manner completely independent s1 s2 values feeding system
access digex com \( \) subject screw people , crypto hard core hackers spooks organization express access online communications usa lines 38 nntp posting host access digex net article 1993apr22 lehman com pmetzger snark shearson com \( perry e metzger \) writes qualcomm spare cycles dsps new cdma digital cellular phones wanted put strong crypto since capacity government decided discourage 're blowing smoke qualcomm wants sell nice , lucrative overseas markets like japan ec government told n't encryption ever hope export technology reason cdma n't encryption g men came qualcomm 's door 's qualcomm n't think us market digital cellular big enough international traffic arms regulations n't believe , call qualcomm ask n't throw theories least , n't sci crypt whole newsgroups devoted kind uninformed claptrap normal company trying put one likely get visit boys dark suits washington , like qualcomm suspect companies like cylink tolerated products expensive hah 're much expensive besides , drug dealer afford rolex mercedes , darn well afford cylink phones , cylink sells phones 're willing make different stuff domestic use vs export qualcomm n't cylink makes money 's capitalism , comrade someone build unit better yet , prehaps someone produce package turns 486 box sound card secure phone someone someone think 's easy , whining net instead getting butt gear writing \? name would become known loved dozens ! , would require actual effort
c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu \( john kelsey \) subject crypto papers net nntp posting host mizzou1 missouri edu organization university missouri lines 13 've recently reading paper merkle 's \( net , think \) discussing three potential replacements des ever done \? khufu , khafre , snefru still discussed anywhere \? \( know snefru referenced rsa faq , think may also sci crypt faq \) related topic , anyone point toward good sites find papers articles discussions cryptology \? think 've exhausted math sci library , n't seem anything recent '84 thanks john kelsey
c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu \( john kelsey \) subject pgp ideas ibm systems nntp posting host mizzou1 missouri edu organization university missouri lines 11 've thinking difficult would make pgp available form ebcdic machines message authentication would ugly , think least idea encryption could work , pgp switch tell use idea ofb mode ecb mode ofb mode , errors translating ebcdic ascii ebcdic would affect byte , 16 bytes would affected cbc pgp set use different idea modes \? n't recall executable , n't gone carefully probably john kelsey
peter white peter white mixcom mixcom com subject censored free america \? node organization milwaukee internet bbs milwaukee , wi distribution usa lines 27 scanning trying read articles sci crypt area , get \? surprisingly , blurb comes upon screen file xxx either cancelled expired ask , expired , would n't available file cache \? 32 paranoid , older get , greater cynicism federal state governments becomes censorship internet \( less censorship stupid , 's govt \) ridiculous japanese far , government , eyes , trying force crypto standard onto standard ancient relic terms modern japanese security techniques , pose question censor folks net send warning shown \( cancelled expired \) would wiser let people see post \? \? article constitution gives right revolution things seem going \? \? hmmm peter g white , president , synthesis 93 inc milwaukee , wisconsin , u peter white mixcom com
rab well sf ca us \( bob bickford \) subject new encryption algorithm keywords nea nntp posting host well sf ca us organization whole earth 'lectronic link lines 33 article artmel well sf ca us , artmel well sf ca us \( arthur melnick \) writes order get export approval secom nea , necessary go nsa reveal details program algorithm done finished product submit encryption algorithm approved export , set please n't insulted , based would say encryption algorithm likely worth paper 's printed nsa gave export approval , means felt confident could crack 's job , mandated law , i'm sure believe gave export approval encryption algorithm n't confident able crack , would sworn duty monitor foreign communications us national security related material many \( \? \) us think government spooks reason lose sight fact jobs best ability , said ability rather high hope one day make obsolete , cope existence export one thing learn lot , example robert bickford rab well sf ca us n't blame voted libertarian
nntp posting host gode ifi uio jon jon ifi uio subject shelf cheap des keyseach machine \( corporate acceptance wiretap chip \) reply strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) 's message thu , 22 apr 1993 17 59 12 gmt organization dept informatics , university oslo , norway 1993apr21 001230 26384 lokkur dexter mi us c5uvn4 mf7 austin ibm com strnlghtc5wcmo fx5 netcom com lines 49 originator jon gode ifi uio article strnlghtc5wcmo fx5 netcom com strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes article c5uvn4 mf7 austin ibm com arussell austin ibm com \( ag russell \) writes company worked previously , received file des encryped person sent , went vaction rather wait two weeks set straight frontal attack one key time took two \( 2 \) days crack file , n't faith des taking face value \( though seems quite dissonant much else published brute force des cracking , unless russell lucky respect key \) , 'd interested whether program russell used available \? whether used cleartext recognition algorithm program whether examine decryption hand \? whether used known plaintext attack \? probably also tell us , given address , machine used desktop , workstation , super computer depending answer , could appalling development calling question des rsa des dunno rsa idea bright programmer little idle machine time crack single des message couple days \( assuming tricks message specific \) , 's clipper key , nsa give chip \) david david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted person know , belonging research lab rivate company , claimed conversation , given equipment lab , could crack kerberos ticket 15 minutes hour access rather powerful des hardware , kind , believe attack possible amount known plaintext ticket , constitutes small message two years ago des longer usable encryption really sensitive data lot purposes , however , still adequate jon , norwegian computing centre , oslo , norway e mail jon nr jon ifi uio
stan uucp \( stan \) subject seen lobby , us organization temple stan tbs world hq concord , mass , usa ns111310 lance colostate edu \( nathaniel sammons \) writes second motion favor \? favor y'all newsletters taking addresses future , feel free put list
jebright magnus acs ohio state edu \( james r ebright \) subject secret source announcement nntp posting host bottom magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university distribution inet lines 57 article merlin lerami lerctr org \( david hayes \) writes article amolitor nmsu edu \( andrew molitor \) writes get buck , 2nd hand , must true , eh \? i'm pretty sure nsa supposed , among many things , provide high quality cryptosystems variety places n't recall reading anywhere reliable 're supposed 1 \) monitor phonecalls 2 \) monitor usenet 3 \) provide cryptosystems easily crack 4 \) etc etc say n't , might n't know , evidence , almost values follows , therefore , values 'you' , claims nsa border paranoia andrew ok , andrew , 'll provide evidence friend mine worked electronics manufacturer west coast office routinely sold story deleted let give another story actually happened sell communications boards use 68000 used high tech agent uk sold system company ch packaged product cz \( london bern \) brits told swiss need pass export paperwork us , time , needed export systems knew nsa watching traffic \( like watching traffic \) know two weeks later agent us government shows office remind agents sold systems evil empire , better make sure export handled properly part five man office columbus ohio ! ! stuff based sources could reveal \( assume time guys sat around office thumbs ass n't much stuff coming columbus \) wow , electric utility sure big worry folks \) point , created giant bureaucracy \( nsa \) budget bigger cia 's , like , fill time looking things evil empire gone nsa something fill time justify budgets \( wish would sit around thumbs ass much hope spy us things like skipjack subvert people like dorothy denning \) sigh information farming addr phone finger ohio state university jebright magnus acs ohio state edu \( \( 0 0 \) \) jim ebright e mail jre osu edu support privacy support encryption \( \)
world std com \( scott \) subject organized lobbying cryptography organization world public access unix , brookline , distribution inet lines 21 article 1993apr21 csus edu sphughes sfsuvax1 sfsu edu \( shaun p hughes \) writes article 1r3jgbinn35i eli cs yale edu jgfoot minerva cis yale edu writes perhaps encryption types would defend digitized porn posted encrypted \? issues seperable maintain would anyone post anything encrypted \? encryption use persons know decrypt data mean something like uuencode \? n't super crypto , encrypted scott scott irc 's really one requirement world std com prophet , 've got b4 f w g k \( ! \) r p 's \? also ursa major spdcc com mouth j r dobbs
tarnold vnet ibm com \( todd w arnold \) subject des code shipped canada \? organization ibm cryptographic facility development disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , ibm news software ureply 3 1 netcom com lines 22 article 1993apr22 fripp ri cadre com rj ri cadre com writes someone canada asked send public domain des file encryption code legal send \? believe 's legal send des code equipment us canada export license think place countries require license aside , 've always thought legal send des software anywhere , follow rules 1 encrypt des software des 2 send encrypted software recipient 3 send key recipient way person end use des software already des available otherwise , ca n't decrypt program , useless 've guaranteed already des , really violated law sending form program \? \? i'm sure 's still illegal , seems like good idea todd
rick miller rick ee uwm edu subject rush read e mail \? organization lines 18 distribution inet nntp posting host 129 89 2 33 summary seen lobby , us rsilvers nynexst com \( robert silvers \) writes send something rush linbaugh clinton taking away right privacy govt standard takes , people lots money \( drug dealers \) able justify des stuff slam clinton air rob seem recall rush saying compuserve account anyone wants e mail , need account number \( e 12345 , \) could e mail via gateway using dot instead comma like 12345 compuserve com \( address \) , anyone know e mail address \? says uses time \( wonder reads alt fan rush limbaugh ego big enough ! \) rick miller rick ee uwm edu ricxjo discus mil wi us ricxjo muelisto send postcard , get one back ! enposxtigu bildkarton kaj vi ricevos alion ! rick miller 16203 woods muskego , wis 53150 usa
rja14 cl cam ac uk \( ross anderson \) subject key registering bodies nntp posting host ely cl cam ac uk organization u cambridge computer lab , uk lines 25 article rubin dsg4 dse beckman com , rubin dsg4 dse beckman com \( arthur rubin \) writes 7hl netcom com nagle netcom com \( john nagle \) writes since law requires wiretaps requested executive branch approved judicial branch , seems clear one key registering bodies control judicial branch suggest supreme court , , regionally , courts appeal specifically , offices clerks makes sense half must non government escrow good idea , put eggs one basket \? given escrow keys generated 200 time floppy disks , keep rather creating one huge database guarded better fort knox give floppy different bank usa 10 , 000 banks likely 2 , 000 , 000 clipper phones sold ross
russotto vnet ibm com \( matthew russotto \) subject tapped , code good disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , ibm news software ureply 3 1 strnlghtc5who2 1fk netcom com lines 9 strnlghtc5who2 1fk netcom com david sternlight writes clipper case , representative body experts going allowed audit , 'll assurances \( maybe even president \) escrowed keys back doors may confidence \( among \) wow , assurances president , almost good campaign promises ! n't see anyone would n't confidence
mathew mathew mantis co uk subject new encryption organization mantis consultants , cambridge uk x newsreader rusnews v1 02 lines 15 psionic wam umd edu \( haywood j \) writes spoke mr melnick algorithm could n't tell much new n't patented yet right company afraid new clipper chip put business real possibility really need help stopping clipper chip becoming standard 're planning algorithm , hope go business quickly possible tell said i'm sure many readers newsgroups agree , mathew
dougb comm mot com \( doug bank \) subject revised technical summary clipper chip reply dougb ecs comm mot com organization motorola land mobile products sector nntp posting host 145 1 146 35 lines 53 article 1993apr21 3465 guvax acc georgetown edu , denning guvax acc georgetown edu writes chips programmed mykotronx , inc , calls myk 78 silicon supplied vlsi technology inc implemented 1 micron technology initially sell 30 quantities 10 , 000 price drop technology shrunk 8 micron hmmmmmm 30 seems bit expensive big chip \? kind packages used \? 3 volt 5 volt technology \? much current draw \? think many practical questions n't answered , especially since chip already exists ! clipper chips programmed inside scif \( secure information facility \) , essentially vault scif contains laptop computer equipment program chips 300 chips programmed single session scif located mykotronx beginning session , trusted agent two key escrow agencies enters vault agent 1 enters secret , random 80 bit value s1 laptop agent 2 enters secret , random 80 bit value s2 random values serve seeds generate unit keys sequence serial numbers thus , unit keys function 160 secret , random bits , agent knows 80 ok , 've got big problem world expect sell chips even 30 overhead involved programming procedure \? 2 4 people , laptop , 300 chips time give break long take \? even minute per chip , take greater part day turn 300 things long suppose take program 10 , 000 chips mentioned \? highly impractical ! see chip used , imagine embedded telephone security device \( \) suppose call someone device pushing button start secure conversation , security device negotiate 80 bit session key k device end find info device \? kind vocoder use \? require isdn phone lines \? , full duplex \? sound \? kind synchronization scheme used \? little black boxes conform ts choices protocol , etc \? anybody else allowed build boxes conform specifications \? doug bank private systems division dougb ecs comm mot com motorola communications sector dougb nwu edu schaumburg , illinois dougb casbah acns nwu edu 708 576 8207
subject secret source announcement pgut1 cs aukuni ac nz \( peter gutmann \) organization computer science dept university auckland lines 56 lerami lerctr org merlin lerami lerctr org \( david hayes \) writes ok , andrew , 'll provide evidence friend mine worked electronics manufacturer west coast office routinely sold equipment japanese one day , japanese started showing discount demands amazingly close cost manufacture products company routinely sent manufacturing data field offices japanese simply intercepted friend , computer systems admin , came solution started sending data double block encrypted des two days new distribution plan implemented , president company got visit pair government agents told knock president gave , since company considerable business federal government , government n't monitoring communications , would even know encryption system installed \? , since tion n't illegal , des certainly n't , basis government 's cease desist demand \? something similar happened ages ago working pgp used send short messages development issues simply test new features around time pgp \( certainly newer version \) unknown suddenly admin site using received request stop sending encrypted email almost way automatic scanner could found , since would n't known pgp must checked unknown data types message , tried , found could n't get past pem armour part , contacted sysadmin asked stop luckily current email carriers less picky goes networks \) case people think email scanning n't take place , assure done regularly many sites usually government agencies \( least know \) , local administrators , reasons , decided monitor communications \( i'm sure think whole mess reasons stop hackers terrorists child pornographers drug dealers evil commies whatever \) several occasions 've got people trouble simply including traditional nsa bait message \( n't try \) friend mine picked mentioning name uk town \( hint look words embedded \) i'm sure many examples happening \( fact anyone examples 'd appreciate hearing could use ammunition talks privacy issues \) peter pgut1 cs aukuni ac nz p gutmann cs aukuni ac nz gutmann p kosmos wcc govt nz gen nz peter nacjack gen nz peter nacjack gen nz \( order preference one 'em 's bound work \) n't vote 'll encourage
lyle seaman transarc com subject new encryption organization carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 18 world std com nntp posting host po2 andrew cmu edu reply world std com martin world std com \( martin j hannigan \) writes hello david sternlight keeper faq unfortuantely cannot find present time cool , \? let people form opinions even mr sternlight might right sometime , guys setting things way regain credibility renounce previous statements move towards mainstream net opinion tolerance , imo c \) david sternlight , net police indeed lyle transarc 707 grant street 412 338 4474 gulf tower pittsburgh 15219
jhan debra dgbt doc ca \( jerry han \) subject overreacting \( tapped , code good \) nntp posting host debra dgbt doc ca organization communications research centre , ottawa distribution na lines 75 article rens imsi com rens imsi com \( rens troost \) writes giant bally ho clipper chip noticed rather disturbing trend e mail posts 've tossing back forth tendency part people hide head sand never advocated hiding sand i'm advocating peaceful solution peaceful solution possible unless want blood hands many people want jailed convictions , insistence real privacy \? sit quietly preconditions real civil war put place short sighted government read everybody jumping screaming , i'm worried people going reach hammers rifles pens paper terminal pen \) type corrected \( \) really \? guess mean u revolution england , india , mexico , france , holland english revolution revolution \? never one india could get around religion restrictions mexico point taken , forgot one france napoleon would something say holland n't know one , wo n't comment n't know enough 's good odds misinformed whole issue topic actually , consider issue topic start gambling fire crackers , sooner later , somebody going lose hand cops kick door using pgp , tell 're exercising \( called , rapidly narrowing \) right free speech fine exercise right free speech 's great ! n't resort armed violence 's possibility perhaps talk government disciple david cops friends sternlight \? believe bad cops , good cops bad people , good people \( grey inbetween \) pleasure knowing police officer best uphold laws swore defend also seen happens police power abused n't generalize either direction causes problems implied threat private crypto , subtle subtext clipper announcement , worries n't want children growing police state either nice worms , ai n't \? jerry han crc doc div behavioural research jhan debra dgbt doc ca opinions , opinions proud frozen member mighty warriors band memories 've left behind , still ringing ears genesis
jhan debra dgbt doc ca \( jerry han \) subject overreacting \( tapped , code good \) nntp posting host debra dgbt doc ca organization communications research centre , ottawa distribution na lines 59 article bu edu uni acs bu edu \( shaen bernhardt \) writes point remains see government slowly washing away privacy even unwittingly think ever live soceity issues smart cards citizens birth \? think live soceity insists register crypto keys keep track i'm saying \? even evidence guilt \? think ever live soceity seeks meddle affairs its' citizenry without recourse kind \? i'm tired \( imho \) compromise administration seeks implement proposals guise enhancing privacy proposals , read language press releases , obvious deception involved presenting pieces public , sickened revolted repulsed 90 , perhaps even 95 country could care less clipper chip , wiretap bill , smart card , rhetoric clinton administration frightens conserveative believe law order conserveative move centralized regime really scares , mostly know cant go far wrong intelligence american people tell 's going keep safe drug dealers terrorists , let put cameras home even wake waco , find support increasingly moves quite honest , way things going , 'd call self defense dont want mine eyes security camera 24 hours day never advocated saying believe i'm advocating second thought , calm smart warrior defeats enemy ambush battlefield smarter warrior defeats enemy open warfare battlefield warrior defeats enemy without using battlefield think uni acs bu edu public keys finger request public key archives pgp public keys pgp iastate edu sovereignty sign brutal past fight clinton 's wiretap chip ! df610670f2467b99 97de2b5c3749148c crypto crime ! ask ! jerry han crc doc div behavioural research jhan debra dgbt doc ca opinions , opinions proud frozen member mighty warriors band memories 've left behind , still ringing ears genesis
lyle seaman transarc com subject shelf cheap des keyseach machine \( corporate acceptance wiretap chip \) organization carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 14 1993apr21 001230 26384 lokkur dexter mi us c5uvn4 mf7 austin ibm com strnlghtc5wcmo fx5 netcom com cmm 0 90 2 jon gode ifi uio nntp posting host po5 andrew cmu edu reply cmm 0 90 2 jon gode ifi uio jon jon ifi uio writes person know , belonging research lab rivate company , claimed conversation , given equipment lab , could crack kerberos ticket 15 minutes hour access rather powerful des hardware , kind , believe attack possible amount known plaintext ticket , constitutes small message two years ago would v4 ticket , presumably , v5 ticket v4 ticket format even complicated several orders magnitude lyle transarc 707 grant street 412 338 4474 gulf tower pittsburgh 15219
martin world std com \( martin j hannigan \) subject new encryption organization twisted pair consulting , boston , lines 25 article transarc com lyle seaman transarc com writes martin world std com \( martin j hannigan \) writes hello david sternlight keeper faq unfortuantely cannot find present time cool , \? let people form opinions even mr sternlight might right sometime , guys setting things way regain credibility renounce previous statements move towards mainstream net opinion tolerance , imo c \) david sternlight , net police indeed lyle transarc 707 grant street 412 338 4474 gulf tower pittsburgh 15219 hopefully , doesnt take personal martin hannigan twisted pair consulting 617 623 mac ibm pc mainframe unix
cme ellisun sw stratus com \( carl ellison \) subject strong encryption organization stratus computer , software engineering lines 33 distribution world nntp posting host ellisun sw stratus com posted reply comp risks \( answering risks digest 14 53 \) summary 14 53 mark key escrow mark marks wimsey com subject key escrow \( clipper chip risks 14 51 \) advances digital computing made possible ordinary people use powerful machine cipher techniques tempting \( albeit \) believe new situation , thanks pet computers true david kahn 's codebreakers , history cryptography , makes two things obvious 1 cryptography spontaneous invention private human individuals going thousands years teen age slang cipher inventions provide modern example spontaneous creation 2 systems people created roughly secure \( sometimes secure \) used military diplomatic users time \( although seem simple insecure today \) e g , places , bible used complex simple substitution caesar military , caesar commend kahn 's book might interested disclaimer opinions expressed , course carl ellison cme sw stratus com stratus computer inc m3 2 bkw tel \( 508 \) 460 2783 55 fairbanks boulevard marlborough 01752 1298 fax \( 508 \) 624 7488
johan blade stack urc tue nl \( johan \) subject tapped , code good organization department physics , eindhoven university technology lines 19 nntp posting host blade stack urc tue nl russotto vnet ibm com \( matthew russotto \) writes clipper case , representative body experts going allowed audit , 'll assurances \( maybe even president \) escrowed keys back doors may confidence \( among \) wow , assurances president , almost good campaign promises ! n't see anyone would n't confidence n't think mr clinton even understand technical details clipper encryption scheme , assurances value al , gives says panel experts \( \? \) told lived usa , would hope experts paid fill favorite 3 letter combination j c nature reality physics johan stack urc tue nl
morgan engr uky edu \( wes morgan \) subject seen lobby , us organization university kentucky engineering computing center lines 61 ns111310 lance colostate edu \( nathaniel sammons \) wrote 2 \) kind soul would write letter , upload net , everyone could capture , print , snail mail local congressional critter btw i'm working one realize form letters worst way influence congresscritters exact copies routinely placed lowest opinion ladder want write \( think ! \) , take time really write letter things emphasize 's said usenet available , e corporate sites ties emphasize part group making developing using clinton 's superhighway ' explain intimately familiar computing data communications \( case n't call self wiring 1200 bps modem \) distinguish letter random n't turn tell know technical sides issue n't overdo jargon remember , letter first read \( likelihood \) may even college student n't understand , views wo n't even make sheets concise n't ramble rants definitely place cite references , necessary , use accepted references like academic journals neighbor jim real refer 8 \) unfortunately , congresscritters really understand electronic communications encourage pick access compuserve , america online , one free nets offer send samples position , offer \( staffers back home state \) access systems offer give demonstration next time 're town offer get personally involved helping give opinions credence addition sending mail representatives , send mail members committee \( subcommittee \) dealing issue n't committee , ca n't much help matter comes floor wes ps 'd suggest drawing analogies digital communication traditional media , usenet n't decent track record analogy department 8 \) rachel elizabeth morgan 4 13 93 , 7 00 oh yeah , reached 9 pounds 4 ounces \( despite coming 3 weeks early \) morgan engr uky edu netters gave constant encouragement prayer thanks everything !
mathew mathew mantis co uk subject screw people , crypto hard core hackers spooks organization mantis consultants , cambridge uk x newsreader rusnews v1 02 lines 9 ifarqhar laurel ocs mq edu au \( ian farquhar \) writes hmmm also wonder intergraph thinks use name clipper device \) mention computer associates 'll careful stop telling people i'm clipper programmer , might lynch \) mathew
henson cc wwu edu \( sean dean \) subject rush read e mail \? article henson 1993apr23 distribution inet organization western washington university lines 23 rick ee uwm edu \( rick miller \) writes rsilvers nynexst com \( robert silvers \) writes send something rush linbaugh clinton taking away right privacy govt standard takes , people lots money \( drug dealers \) able justify des stuff slam clinton air rob seem recall rush saying compuserve account anyone wants e mail , need account number \( e 12345 , \) could e mail via gateway using dot instead comma like 12345 compuserve com \( address \) , anyone know e mail address \? says uses time \( wonder reads alt fan rush limbaugh ego big enough ! \) rick miller rick ee uwm edu ricxjo discus mil wi us ricxjo muelisto send postcard , get one back ! enposxtigu bildkarton kaj vi ricevos alion ! 've heard n't read alt fan rush idea compuserve e mail address
cis umassd edu \( howard \) subject overreacting \( tapped , code good \) organization university massachusetts dartmouth distribution na lines 19 transarc com lyle seaman transarc com writes look , \( collectively \) power throw bums , n't use clearly n't need go burning things , clearly need throw least bums unfortunately , bums learned target small groups people single time , masses wo n't react throw eventually , masses react , unless bums cease relentless encroachment liberty economy sooner happens , less damages n't want live war zone , either want see bums thrown real damage real damage \? \? n't paying attention , seems called war drugs already done major damage us constitution howard bix com win 100 victories 100 adept cis umassd edu battles acme skill
levin bbn com \( joel b levin \) subject rush read e mail \? lines 38 nntp posting host fred bbn com rsilvers nynexst com \( robert silvers \) writes send something rush linbaugh clinton taking away right privacy govt standard takes , people lots money \( drug dealers \) able justify des stuff slam clinton air 'll slam clinton anything air understand remains popular 'll take piece video clinton walking along find frame clinton nose , say freeze blow full screen rant five minutes one could possibly trust someone face greedy little eyes 've seen tv show \( around time \) anyone call stuff legitimate \( hate say informed \) commentary \? anyone half brain head 1 continue watch 2 \? american tv watching \( guess radio listening \) public never ceases amaze j 1 oops , inadvertently answered question \? 2 see run across every couple months channel surfing late night longest 've able stand 10 minutes \( apologies stripping alt fan rush groups newsgroups line software apparently rejects anything groups n't carry , n't carry also removed sci crypt followups \) nets levin bbn com sweetheart roses 's pots \( 617 \) 873 bureau morning wide eyed , stood faculties rooted floor j
cme ellisun sw stratus com \( carl ellison \) subject organized lobbying cryptography organization stratus computer , software engineering lines 21 distribution inet nntp posting host ellisun sw stratus com article 1993apr21 395 gems vcu edu langford gems vcu edu writes 1 \) second amendment gives us right keep bear arms 2 \) strong cryptography arms , according u government \( 's 's hard export \) therefore , right strong cryptography ! better , think , right assemble right meet park talk privately right see anyone nearby , listening cyberspace , cryptography gives us right assemble control us disclaimer opinions expressed , course carl ellison cme sw stratus com stratus computer inc m3 2 bkw tel \( 508 \) 460 2783 55 fairbanks boulevard marlborough 01752 1298 fax \( 508 \) 624 7488
usc edu \( lance \) subject overreacting \( tapped , code good \) organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 25 distribution na nntp posting host usc edu article bu edu , uni acs bu edu \( shaen bernhardt \) writes conserveative believe law order conserveative move centralized regime really scares , mostly know cant go far wrong intelligence american people tell 's going keep safe drug dealers terrorists , let put cameras home one point 'd like make , people seem forgotten one underlining principles constitution distrust governmental authority control checks balances realize distrust power everyone seems forgotten well original reason bill rights guaranteed right bear arms 's inclusion allow protect citizens , prevent government taking away means protecting armed aggressive government hard oppress citizenry armed fanatic , i'm retired naval officer spent much time defending , perhaps understand purpose well plan lance
zeus tamu edu \( mr weather \) subject rush read e mail \? organization texas university , academic computing services lines 12 distribution inet nntp posting host zeus tamu edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 henson cc wwu edu \( sean dean \) writes 2 posts deleted 've heard n't read alt fan rush idea compuserve e mail address anyone rush limbaugh 's e mail address \? anyone compuserve might able look otherwise find \? maybe would impossible , thought least ask mr weather zeus tamu edu ken blair
subject write clinton rubin dsg4 dse beckman com \( arthur rubin \) organization beckman instruments , inc nntp posting host dsg4 dse beckman com lines 17 transfer stratus com cme ellisun sw stratus com \( carl ellison \) writes 've reading sci crypt , alt privacy clipper comp org eff talk discussions clipper chip find \( usual \) us think alike 's lot messages sent clinton well net \( instead net \) , might actually effect 0005895485 mcimail com \( white house \) 've already written 5000 char commentary \( mci mail account , ca n't accused hacker \) arthur l rubin rubin dsg4 dse beckman com \( work \) beckman instruments brea 216 5888 mcimail com 70707 453 compuserve com arthur pnet01 cts com \( personal \) opinions , represent employer
solar usc edu \( tor \) subject program , may 23 27 , , norway organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 223 distribution world nntp posting host solar usc edu program , may 23 27 , , norway general chair email alcatel program chair tor department informatics university bergen n bergen norway email ii uib monday , may 24 session 1 authentication chair j 9 00 9 30 welcome opening remarks 9 30 10 00 relation codes codes correcting independent errors , johansson , b smeets \( lund university , sweden \) , g \( institute problems information transmission , russia \) 10 00 10 20 optimal authentication systems , r l \( university wollongong , australia \) 10 20 10 50 coffee tea session 2 public key chair 10 50 11 10 factoring integers using , b dixon \( princeton university , usa \) k lenstra \( bellcore , usa \) 11 10 11 30 new curve based analogue rsa , n \( telecom research laboratories , australia \) 11 30 11 50 weaknesses public key cryptosystem based factorization finite groups , j stern \( ens , france \) 11 50 14 00 lunch session 3 block ciphers chair de 14 00 14 20 uniform mappings cryptography , k \( technical university vienna , austria \) 14 20 14 40 permutations differential cryptanalysis , beth c ding \( , university karlsruhe , germany \) 14 40 15 10 two new classes bent functions , c \( inria , france \) 15 10 15 30 boolean functions satisfying higher order strict condition , w \( suny , buffalo , usa \) 15 30 16 00 coffee tea session 4 secret sharing chair 16 00 16 30 size shares probability cheating threshold schemes , , de u \( university salerno , italy \) 16 30 17 00 secret sharing schemes , k , k , k , w \( tokyo institute technology , japan \) tuesday , may 25 session 5 chair 9 00 10 00 norwegian , e \( university bergen , norway \) \( invited talk \) 10 00 10 20 linear complexity products shift register sequences , r h \( austrian academy sciences , vienna , austria \) 10 20 10 50 coffee tea session 6 ii chair 10 50 11 20 weaknesses synchronous stream ciphers , j , r j \( , ku leuven , belgium \) 11 20 11 40 blind synchronization sequences even span , r games j j \( mitre , usa \) 11 40 12 10 constructions correlation immune functions , j , x zhang \( university wollongong , australia \) 12 10 14 00 lunch session 7 digital signatures chair c 14 00 14 30 practical provable secure release secret exchange signatures , b \( aarhus university , denmark \) 14 30 14 50 subliminal communication easy using , g j simmons 14 50 15 10 oss repaired , \( , france \) 15 10 15 40 coffee tea session 8 protocols chair k 15 40 16 00 limitations logical analysis cryptographic protocols , c boyd w mao \( university manchester , united kingdom \) 16 00 16 30 practical anonymous secure voting scheme , k itoh , c park k \( tokyo institute technology , japan \) 16 30 16 50 rights client independent server environment , j \( university , spain \) 16 50 17 20 interactive hashing simplifies zero knowledge protocol design , r \( uc berkeley , usa \) , r \( bellcore , usa \) yung \( ibm watson , usa \) session chair 20 00 24 00 accepted paper security digital mobile communication systems , c park , k , \( tokyo institute technology , japan \) wednesday , may 26 session 9 hash functions chair b 9 00 9 20 one way alternative digital signatures , j de mare \( clarkson university , usa \) 9 20 9 40 attacks hash function , b l r \( aarhus university , denmark \) 9 40 10 10 collisions compression function md5 , b den boer \( , ku leuven , belgium \) 10 10 10 30 find avoid collisions hash function , j \( bull , france \) 10 30 11 00 coffee tea session 10 payment systems chair b 11 00 11 20 single term line coins , n ferguson \( cwi amsterdam , netherlands \) 11 20 11 40 improved privacy wallets observers , r j f cramer \( cwi amsterdam , netherlands \) p pedersen \( aarhus university , denmark \) 11 40 12 10 prevent mafia fraud using distance bounding protocols , brands chaum \( cwi amsterdam , netherlands \) 12 10 14 00 lunch session 11 cryptanalysis chair g j simmons 14 00 14 20 distribution characteristics mappings , l o'connor \( university waterloo , canada \) 14 20 14 40 security idea block cipher , w meier \( , switzerland \) 14 40 15 10 linear cryptanalysis method des cipher , \( mitsubishi , japan \) 15 10 15 40 new types cryptanalytic attacks using related keys , e biham \( technion , israel \) 15 40 16 10 coffee tea session 12 protocols ii chair p 16 10 16 40 reconciliation secret key public discussion , g l \( university montreal , canada \) 16 40 17 10 global , unpredictable bit generation without broadcast , beaver n \( penn state university , usa \) 17 10 17 40 business meeting keywords
azoghlin uxa cso uiuc edu \( old freshman \( vof \) \) subject secret source announcement distribution inet organization university illinois urbana lines 12 bear tigger cs colorado edu \( bear giles \) writes wish luck figuring based information \( probably figure i'm liberal , technical degree interests , common thread throughout posts describes fair portion users internet \) sounds like brother hey n't nice oh shut , i'm posting pipe , take control arms sock mouth
johne vcd hp com \( john eaton \) subject suggestions escrow agencies \( technical details \) organization hewlett packard vcd x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 lines 32 paul robichaux \( lambda msfc nasa gov \) wrote private citizen , would feel much secure person papers knowing organization committed individual civil liberties aclu nra come mind safeguarding half key aclu nra government pressure simple expedient fact supported , funded , overtly controlled government thats one problem far overlooked two escrow agencies create secure database service input output keys pays \? refuse illegal request congressman deliver key budget cut punish \? congress forced fund forever \? problem laws change congress may pass law setting escrow agency instructions keys private future congress may change law suppose pre nazi germany clipper system think escrow agencies would told hitler could keys without valid court order \? effect must set escrow agencies fourth branch goverment isolate outside able directly tap federal funds accountability anyone except court challenge john eaton ! hp vcd ! johne
cme ellisun sw stratus com \( carl ellison \) subject seen lobby , us organization stratus computer , software engineering lines 18 distribution inet nntp posting host ellisun sw stratus com article 1993apr21 163929 21149 eff org charles gross acg eff org writes nra successful \( among number things \) , drop hat , get congresspersons office flooded postcards , faxes phone calls certainly , way cool internet powers organization , act way , action appropriate n't know , nearly forgotten generate paper mail e mail congress , would written many letters n't written one yet , turns writing paper complicated job , us hooked way cool internet disclaimer opinions expressed , course carl ellison cme sw stratus com stratus computer inc m3 2 bkw tel \( 508 \) 460 2783 55 fairbanks boulevard marlborough 01752 1298 fax \( 508 \) 624 7488
smb research att com \( steven bellovin \) subject shelf cheap des keyseach machine \( corporate organization bell laboratories lines 29 article cmm 0 90 2 jon gode ifi uio , jon jon ifi uio writes person know , belonging research lab rivate company , claimed conversation , given equipment lab , could crack kerberos ticket 15 minutes hour access rather powerful des hardware , kind , believe attack possible amount known plaintext ticket , constitutes small message two years ago des longer usable encryption really sensitive data lot purposes , however , still adequate sounds awful lot like password , weakness des merritt pointed weakness kerberos paper came 2 5 years ago , computer communications review usenix matter , loudly discussed kerberos mailing list even earlier problem nothing whatsoever des , everything bad password selection i'm perfectly willing believe cryptanalytic attacks possible des i'm quite dubious private research labs know parameters brute force attack quite well established see , example , outerbridge paper july '91 cryptologia 're going hour powerful des 'll leave arithmetic exercise reader average , 'll need 2 55 trials pick parameters fast des engine runs , many engines used
kliegel key amdahl com \( james kliegel \) subject crypto organization amdahl advanced systems lines 24 distribution world reply kliegel key amdahl com nntp posting host key amdahl com came read faq purchased recommended books , taken heart advice one knows nothing crypto without done stint cryptanalyst , would like correspond people interested cryptology working implementing cryptanalyst 's workbench example 's applications hope start sending ciphers back forth us practice cracking would like start simple 's ciphers progress roughly according david kahn 's book course would interested general discussions math also hope foriegn test response time men suits 've hearing much unfortunately product american education system know english looking forward responses james james kliegel kliegel key amdahl com \( 510 \) 623
subject seen lobby , us rubin dsg4 dse beckman com \( arthur rubin \) transarc com 1993apr21 163929 21149 eff org transfer stratus com distribution inet organization beckman instruments , inc nntp posting host dsg4 dse beckman com lines 23 transfer stratus com cme ellisun sw stratus com \( carl ellison \) writes article 1993apr21 163929 21149 eff org charles gross acg eff org writes nra successful \( among number things \) , drop hat , get congresspersons office flooded postcards , faxes phone calls certainly , way cool internet powers organization , act way , action appropriate n't know , nearly forgotten generate paper mail e mail congress , would written many letters n't written one yet , turns writing paper complicated job , us hooked way cool internet 's mci mail ! \( compuserve also \( tm \) \) intended advertisement really mci mail intended \( according ads \) arthur l rubin rubin dsg4 dse beckman com \( work \) beckman instruments brea 216 5888 mcimail com 70707 453 compuserve com arthur pnet01 cts com \( personal \) opinions , represent employer
mgr hep anl gov \( dr mike \) subject clipper freedom comments news software vax vms vnews 1 3 4 reply mgr hep anl gov organization argonne national laboratory distribution world lines 94 begin pgp signed message gasp ! 've spent 3 hours catching sci crypt \( slow reader guess \) really put comments first , let flame famous dave 's obviously 10 years old cut slack joke clinton crypto drugs slammed thru roof nice job guys ! 've working marijuana legalization 5 years , clinton 's actions far really helped government action taken various groups , developed 64 bit des based public literature protect mailing list boxes critical component , since chose 32 57 based key , cracking des going tough \( reason slows touch key try need use different set boxes , know 's vector , sure makes random search pain \) several marijuana legalization groups mailing lists confiscated people charged drug use sales 's crime member legalization org , watched really important write letter every official personally vote explain privacy destroyed cripple chip amazingly enough listen get enough mail jokes nra postcards real , imi \( illinois marijuana initiative \) grown point seeing changes 's pretty clear really implimentation decision made behind backs vesselin points , common practice communist regimes \( may depending vote goes \) criminals guns law abiding citizens n't , criminals like marijuana law abiding subjects n't , criminals like secure crypto law abiding robots n't pgp nice , time goes better save hides someone posted excerpt 's favorite dude 500 years ago saw clearly people , tried explain princes wanted people obey one section quoted \( 've got prince home , 'll paraphrase \) \) free city way completly destroy failing , must appoint locals high positions accept people 's customs even 100 years oppression , people remember rise overthrow government gave example 300 years thomas jefferson questions watching traffic interesting traffic watched stuff goes overseas comes back stuff keywords like , cryptography , nsa certain individuals known , etc easy enough store traffic know subversive e unseen , 's pretty easy go unnoticed long time stronger crypto system less 're noticed , better chances developing organization truth masses gets thread public encrypted conference 's silly first thing feds send \( like dave \) know 're fun teenagers college students , real world 's pretty pointless crypto useful things hiding get marijuana guns , drugs crypto people government want obey rules says alt drugs live free n't pointed 's people actually live , contrary 's true decision shove clipper \( thing intergraph 's ! ! ! \) throats violates principles u founded , government full idiotic robots called bureaucrats 's less worry one might think really innocent \( read naive \) subjects u hurt , rest us criminals live secure freedom de pointed 150 years ago tyranny majority mediocrity government given see government officials work \( argonne national lab \) level stupidity makes dave look smart patience , persistence , truth , work imi hep anl gov dr mike home igc org begin pgp signature version 2 2 end pgp signature
wcs anchor ho att com \( bill stewart 1 908 949 0705 \) subject tapped , code good organization mary ellen carter salvage crew distribution na reply strnlght netcom com 's message thu , 22 apr 1993 19 48 01 gmt rubin dsg4 dse beckman com strnlghtc5who2 1fk netcom com nntp posting host rainier ho att com lines 30 article strnlghtc5who2 1fk netcom com strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes would n't think asking people trust secret algorithm seems unsound maybe , 's quite common millions macintosh users idea 's apple 's patented roms many modems connected know business secrets n't stolen \? answer 1 trust apple 2 attempt , however sophicsticated , came , would destroy apple 's credibility forever 's also 3 \) 's secret want , go look apple 's copyrighted roms mac , 're keeping secrets n't even pry top chip use electron microscope , read data memory see figure means \( motorola object code n't obscure ! \) yes , 's copyrighted , ca n't go selling copies , using copy , see , disassemble 4 \) 're asking trust honesty 're asking trust quality assembly language programming \) , see performance , price , crashes day nsa , organization known honesty openness , asking trust privacy , wo n't trust ! pray peace bill bill stewart 1 908 949 0705 wcs anchor att com bell labs 4m312 holmdel nj , i'm new jersey , work cyberspace white house commect line 1 202 456 1111 fax 1 202 456 2461
rdippold qualcomm com \( ron asbestos dippold \) subject clipper good enough government \? originator rdippold qualcom qualcomm com nntp posting host qualcom qualcomm com organization qualcomm , inc , san diego , ca lines 18 's discussion recently whether government might exempt something use screw us well , comp dcom telecom attmail com subject odds 'n ends news clipper chip device introduced yesterday may suitable government use , says house telecom subcommittee chairman markey letter commerce secretary brown , markey asked whether use technology could lead inadvertently increased costs u companies hoping serve government private markets markey ordered brown answer several questions security cost concerns april 28 \( communications daily , 4 20 93 \) show guy 's afraid look bad , 'll show guy beat every time renee
wcs anchor ho att com \( bill stewart 1 908 949 0705 \) subject screw people , crypto hard core hackers spooks organization mary ellen carter salvage crew reply access digex com 's message 23 apr 1993 01 29 19 0400 1993apr22 lehman com access digex net nntp posting host rainier ho att com lines 46 article 1993apr22 lehman com pmetzger snark shearson com \( perry e metzger \) writes qualcomm spare cycles dsps new cdma digital cellular phones wanted put strong crypto since capacity government decided discourage 're blowing smoke qualcomm wants sell nice , lucrative overseas markets like japan ec government told n't encryption ever hope export technology reason cdma n't encryption g men came qualcomm 's door 's qualcomm n't think us market digital cellular big enough international traffic arms regulations perry already stated net qualcomm wanted sell overseas , government told would n't allowed export , 's blowing smoke \) sure , probably could made us version , non crypto export version , contracted bulgarian japanese software house develop overseas crypto rom , 's getting pretty expensive , cylink sells phones 're willing make different stuff domestic use vs export qualcomm n't cylink makes money 's capitalism , comrade well , people like capitalism , others prefer free enterprise 're different ! using government stifle competition capitalist someone build unit better yet , prehaps someone produce package turns 486 box sound card secure phone someone someone think 's easy , whining net instead getting butt gear writing \? writing good crypto code something good programmers writing good new crypto algorithms specialized skill developing new voice coding algorithms also pretty specialized , finding ways implement complex ones n't enough horsepower still fairly hairy stuff 586 pentium becomes widespread , next generation sound boards dsps , suspect 'll see happen maybe vanilla 486 soundblaster enough pray peace bill bill stewart 1 908 949 0705 wcs anchor att com bell labs 4m312 holmdel nj , i'm new jersey , work cyberspace white house commect line 1 202 456 1111 fax 1 202 456 2461
wcs anchor ho att com \( bill stewart 1 908 949 0705 \) subject screw people , crypto hard core hackers spooks organization mary ellen carter salvage crew reply strnlght netcom com 's message thu , 22 apr 1993 20 23 04 gmt apr22 yuma acns colostate edu 46l netcom com nntp posting host rainier ho att com lines 21 article 46l netcom com strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes doug holland claims tom clancy provided recipe nuclear bombs clancy says omitted certain crucial steps , know clancy knows , rather repeating 's read told unclassified domain \? hand , john aristotle phillips junior princeton trying keep physics terrific term paper , atom bomb design good enough got classified steps derived social engineering \( e g name explosive \) , fundamentally sound \( get \) pakistan embassy also called trying get copy time lobbying us government get nuclear reactors purely non military electrical power generation pray peace bill bill stewart 1 908 949 0705 wcs anchor att com bell labs 4m312 holmdel nj , i'm new jersey , work cyberspace white house commect line 1 202 456 1111 fax 1 202 456 2461
tuinstra signal ece clarkson edu soe \( dwight tuinstra \) subject organized lobbying cryptography reply tuinstra signal ece clarkson edu soe organization sun microsystems , inc lines 16 nntp posting host signal ece clarkson edu article transfer stratus com , cme ellisun sw stratus com \( carl ellison \) writes paraphrase , may agree 're encrypting , defend right encrypt great slogan ! i'm ready sign crypto lobbying effort \( though would n't want nra offshoot \) shall also push cryptographic rights amendment \? \? dwight tuinstra best tuinstra sandman ece clarkson edu tolerable tuinstrd craft camp clarkson edu homo sapiens planetary cancer \? \? news six
strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) subject suggestions escrow agencies \( technical details \) organization dsi uscrpac lines 33 article 73k vcd hp com johne vcd hp com \( john eaton \) writes thats one problem far overlooked two escrow agencies create secure database service input output keys pays \? refuse illegal request congressman deliver key budget cut punish \? congress forced fund forever \? easiest way user fee clipper chip manufactured makes funding separate government also neat side property chip n't catch , scheme breaks , government back drawing boards , assuming n't prohibited alternatives meantime fact , maybe part official system government allowed move past experimental stage , demonstrate economic viability mass adoption government fond demonstration projects proving feasibility use government funds social programs make similar feasibility demonstration \( economic viability cum acceptance terms \) baby well let 's put vote counts marketplace vote among pay david david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted
whitaker eternity demon co uk \( russell earl whitaker \) subject meeting uk association distribution world organization extropy institute reply whitaker eternity demon co uk x mailer simple news 1 90 \( ka9q dis 1 19 \) lines 89 begin pgp signed message meeting uk association saturday , 8 may 1993 , 1500 held offices forest 4th floor 2 gardens london located corner place , couple blocks west victoria station , almost directly across dark green shelter trouble finding place , please call office 071 823 , call \( russell whitaker \) pager , 081 812 , leave informative message telephone number reached return call almost immediately discussion range usual general topics , use secure public key cryptosystems protect message data , specific topics , recent moves u government restrict choice data privacy \( reference recent discussion usenet groups , e g sci crypt alt security pgp \) invited particularly welcome members newly formed uk community group local eff spirit name folks plan attend email let know please attendees requested bring diskettes preferably ms dos pgp 2 public keys usual , several us bring laptops , sign public keys , subject usual caveats \( reference documentation pgp 2 2 , specifically files doc doc \) already copy pgp 2 2 \( ms dos \) , would like copy public domain program , please bring formatted , medium high density 3 5 inch floppy pc diskette provided copy program course , might prefer ftp version program one various archive sites suggest trying demon internet systems , carries full range pgp \( phil zimmerman 's pretty good privacy \) implementations directory pub pgp gate demon co uk meetings time interested invited join rest us determined pub afterwards please note past months , interested people emailed , requesting faqs special information mailings regret , except unusual cases \( e g working press \) , cannot , timely manner , respond requests , however first time writeup meeting , post various places willing supply general information activities existing faqs , alt privacy faq contact whitaker eternity demon co uk russell earl whitaker whitaker eternity demon co uk communications editor extropy journal thought board member , extropy institute \( \) pgp 2 2 public key available begin pgp signature version 2 2 end pgp signature
strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) subject secret source announcement organization dsi uscrpac lines 25 article 1993apr23 cs aukuni ac nz pgut1 cs aukuni ac nz \( peter gutmann \) writes something similar happened ages ago working pgp used send short messages development issues simply test new features around time pgp \( certainly newer version \) unknown suddenly admin site using received request stop sending encrypted email almost way automatic scanner could found , since would n't known pgp must checked unknown data types message , tried , found could n't get past pem armour part , contacted sysadmin asked stop luckily current email carriers less picky goes networks \) sending encrypted traffic without government permission legal new zealand \? david david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted
asd sgi com \( tom weinstein \) subject revised technical summary clipper chip organization silicon graphics inc lines 49 distribution world reply asd sgi com nntp posting host asd sgi com reply denning guvax acc georgetown edu 's message 21 apr 93 19 26 15 0400 article 1993apr21 3465 guvax acc georgetown edu , denning guvax acc georgetown edu writes chip includes following components skipjack encryption algorithm f , 80 bit family key common chips n , 30 bit serial number \( length subject change \) u , 80 bit secret key unlocks messages encrypted chip see chip used , imagine embedded telephone security device \( \) suppose call someone device pushing button start secure conversation , security device negotiate 80 bit session key k device end key negotiation takes place without clipper chip general , method key exchange used diffie hellman public key distribution method session key k established , clipper chip used encrypt conversation message stream \( digitized voice \) telephone security device feeds k chip produce two values e k , encrypted message stream , e e k u n f , law enforcement field , transmitted telephone line law enforcement field thus contains session key k encrypted unit key u concatenated serial number n , encrypted family key f law enforcement field decrypted law enforcement authorized wiretap installed one interesting thing notice use chip key encode session key law enforcement field used encryption algorithm seems like would possible create device would otherwise compatible , would send bogus law enforcement field might render device unusable normal devices 's sort validation involving law enforcement field , could certainly used modified devices course , irrelevant nsa backdoor algorithm , make possible defeat key escrow system wilt thou seal avenues ill \? pay every tom weinstein debt , though god wrote bill esd sgi com
amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) subject secret source announcement organization intercon systems corporation herndon , va usa lines 19 distribution world reply amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) nntp posting host chaos intercon com x newsreader intercon tcp connect ii 1 1 jebright magnus acs ohio state edu \( james r ebright \) writes \( assume time guys sat around office thumbs ass n't much stuff coming columbus \) compuserve columbus , oh corporate headquarters several major insurance companies , largest private r company world \( memorial institute \) , \( defense construction supply center \) , ohio state university \( one three largest us universities \) , \( online college library center \) , 'd amazed , actually columbus looks like cow town amanda walker intercon systems corporation
fw world std com \( forrest \) subject summary responses research oracle password security summary oracle password encryption , security keywords oracle rdbms os 2 unix network password des organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 68 original post building oracle v6 database serve repository information considered proprietary confidential want verify security oracle passwords apply security checking techniques use nix systems specifically would like use crack , something like check encrypted data easily guessed passwords use would depend oracle using unix password encryption scheme , anyone know case , method used \? methods security checking audit oracle environment would much appreciated article scratch surface security considerations , comments requested \( email fw world std com \) thanks people responded , usenet oracle corp common response suggest use oracle audit features ops passwords control access \( opinion ops included suggestions use use \) also advised use table views access control one important security consideration networked installations ops accounts presume client host provides user authentication os 2 server ops users secure least secure machine network hence probably define ops accounts systems pc 's , limit access ops accounts data security concerns unix oracle servers provide disabling ops access network \( option \) , relying host security local processes internally oracle provides powerful well documented \( sic \) audit mechanisms dba use monitor system data access tools used track primary security risks within oracle environment oracle password security based proprietary usage des encryption oracle corp states algorithm prone cleartext attack difficult claim substantiate since algorithm unknown concern users choose easily guessed passwords cracker gain access oracle database files host operating system , could extract password data apply cryptanalysis techniques learn users passwords security risks go , scenario pretty low severity certainly intruder access raw database files , access data cracker could break passwords , however , could substantial damage without mechanism 's , leaving audit trail would point valid users present oracle \( like unix \) provides native means ensuring passwords computer security , important defense educate users safe choice passwords techniques well discussed internet rfc 1281 crack manual , \( available ftp archive servers \) , unix \( r \) system security \( curry , david addison 1992 \) forrest fw world std com boston scientific corp watertown
uni acs bu edu \( shaen bernhardt \) subject tapped , code good distribution na organization boston university , boston , , usa lines 58 article strnlghtc5who2 1fk netcom com strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes article rubin dsg4 dse beckman com rubin dsg4 dse beckman com \( arthur rubin \) writes would n't think asking people trust secret algorithm seems unsound maybe , 's quite common talking cryptography millions macintosh users idea 's apple 's patented roms many modems connected know business secrets n't stolen \? answer 1 trust apple think wo n't see using apple 's new signature finder feature 2 attempt , however sophicsticated , came , would destroy apple 's credibility forever analogy fails assumption government gives two credibility addition , apple 's proclaimed purpose releasing macintosh n't quite opposite january 24 , apple introduce macintosh , 'll see 1984 wo n't , like n't give bullshit analogies trust coke put mind control drugs every get us buy clipper case , representative body experts going allowed audit , 'll assurances \( maybe even president \) escrowed keys back doors may confidence \( among \) , 's lot assurance get many things routinely trust everyday life one reasons suspicious last time president wasted time comfort americans \? another reason look closely 's going david david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted uni acs bu edu uni acs bu edu public keys finger request public key archives pgp public keys pgp iastate edu sovereignty sign brutal past fight clinton 's wiretap chip ! df610670f2467b99 97de2b5c3749148c crypto crime ! ask !
holland cs colostate edu \( douglas craig holland \) subject would happen export restrictions violated \? nntp posting host beethoven cs colostate edu organization colorado state university , computer science department lines 15 ok , heard lot talk nsa 's infamous control encryption export itar 's question say develop great new encryption system , want sell software worldwide thought police come say algorithm threat national security permitted export point , kind trouble could get ignored itar sold program international customers anyway \? doug holland doug holland anyone tries take away freedom holland cs colostate edu speech pry pgp key available e mail cold , dead lips ! !
strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) subject secret algorithm clipper chip crypto key escrow organization dsi uscrpac lines 23 article mjs behemoth genetics wisc edu mjs behemoth genetics wisc edu \( mike schmelzer \) writes let ask would trust richard nixon crypto keys \? would n't take mean president nixon , private citizen nixon sure nothing i'm would slightest interest president nixon mr sternlight , naivete historical ignorance appalling history lesson detailing 1968 74 deleted nonsense ! n't asked larry trust nixon keys , whether would david david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted
strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) subject clipper chip technical summary organization dsi uscrpac lines 14 pat myrto says law enforcement wants keys , let get court order ask use probably cause wiretapping warrants n't decrypt historical traffic , prospective listening probably cause established pat 's approach would tip crooks david david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted
pmetzger snark shearson com \( perry e metzger \) subject parable organization partnership america free drug distribution usa lines 100 microsoft com \( scott miller \( \) \) writes concern government 's ability eavesdrop little ca n't today \? understanding already tap , listen , get access phone lines , bank records , etc etc well , ca n't listen much mine , since already use cryptography much electronic mail , start using telephony soon practical however , allow tell parable far away land called ruritania , ruritania strange trees grew transparent , days people lived mud huts , problem , high tech wood technology developed , new age wood , everyone ruritania found homes 100 see , point , one ever thought allowing police spy someone 's home , new technology made tempting civilized country , however , warrants required use binoculars watch someone home police , taking advantage , would get warrants use binoculars peer see going occassionally , would use binoculars without warrant , everyone pretended n't happen one day , smart man invented paint painted house , suddenly police could n't watch actions things would go back way old age completely private , state decided try require homes video cameras installed every , said , new development crime could run rampant installing video cameras n't mean police get new capability keeping old one wise man pointed citizens obligated make lives police easy , police survived mud hut age without able watch citizens , ruritania civilized country everything expedient permitted instance , neighboring country , discovered torture extremely effective way solve crimes ruritania banned practice spite indeed , warrants , asked , interested \? famous paint , dorothy quisling , intervened however noted people might take photographs children new paint technology widely deployed without safeguards , law passed soon discovered citizens would cover mouths speaking , thus preventing police reading lips video cameras prevented , police said , preventing conducting lawful wise man pointed police never allowed listen people 's homes , dorothy quisling pointed people might use new invention covering mouths discuss kidnapping mutilation children one legislature wanted accused favor children , , one wanted interfere people 's rights wear liked , compromise reached whereby homes installed microphones room accompany video cameras wise man child ever solved old lip reading technology , late microphones installed however , discovered insufficient prevent citizens hiding information authorities , would cleverly speak languages police could understand new law proposed force citizens speak times , , good measure , require speak clearly distinctly near microphones , dorothy quisling pointed , might using opportunity speak private mask terrorist activities ! terrorism struck terror everyone 's hearts , new law meanwhile , wise man talked one evening friends making sham constitution ruritania , proud , asked , obligated sacrifice freedom privacy make lives police easier \? n't real evidence makes big dent crime anyway ! make privacy forfeit state ! however , wise man made mistake saying , law required , , clearly distinctly , near microphone soon , newly formed secret police arrived took , got confess torturing torture , , far efficient old methods , recently instituted stop recent wave people thinking thoughts tomatoes , dorothy quisling noted one major problems new age plenty joy perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire , laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) subject new encryption algorithm keywords nea organization dsi uscrpac lines 32 arthur melnick posts interesting first hand message nea algorithm though reason disbelieve anything says , want clarify one point says connection nsa part nsa plot , course 'd say n't think level discussion sort , quickly reach point 's impossible continue rationally discussing issues crook well , , course 'd say ever popular favorite please prove following negative n't know messages , taken ignoring comments \? david david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted
strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) subject clipper chip technical summary organization dsi uscrpac lines 10 reason fingers want type probably cause whenever want say probable cause sorry confusion previous message david david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted
strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) subject tapped , code good organization dsi uscrpac distribution na lines 17 article bu edu uni acs bu edu \( shaen bernhardt \) writes n't give bullshit analogies trust coke put mind control drugs every get us buy coke n't found acid yet \) david david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted
eachus spectre mitre org \( robert eachus \) subject des code shipped canada \? reply strnlght netcom com 's message thu , 22 apr 1993 20 55 04 gmt nntp posting host spectre mitre org organization mitre corp , bedford , lines 40 article netcom com strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes believe illegal send cryptographic code country without export license \( others correct inaccurate \) glad ! correct , illegal send cryptographic code \( lots things \) country without license however , every us citizen general export license , allowing export lots things , including constitutionally protected speech effect legal us citizens export things illegal us corporation export without first obtaining license dunno 'd get one particular code way find apply license nope , talk good lawyer area export law , general , government good national security case try prevent export anything personally might wish publish \( yes , worded way intentionally lot easier government try prevent export information charge someone crime fact espionage probably exception \) note need distinguish legal send canada license , legal send n't us citizen , general license \( lawyer , take grain salt however , also swim itar export regs cases \) robert eachus standard disclaimer use standard disclaimer function message \( text clever ideas \) return better ideas
pvr wang com \( \) subject crypto file system reference \? organization wang labs , lowell , usa nntp posting host wang com lines 10 ago reference paper crypto file system \( cfs \) given someone \( \? \) get copy \? available net \? published \? author \? thanks peter pvr wang com well , says
andersom spot colorado edu \( marc anderson \) subject sorry folks \( read \) nntp posting host spot colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder distribution na lines 32 article acsu buffalo edu mckee cs buffalo edu \( douglas mckee \) writes article 1993apr22 28445 ucsu colorado edu , andersom spot colorado edu \( marc anderson \) writes article 1993apr21 9999 ucsu colorado edu andersom spot colorado edu \( marc anderson \) writes \( date 1 26 93 \) washington \( upi \) war drugs get fresh found source article joke heh heh seemed pretty damn convincing start n't notice smiley end article , hints caught well , n't hoot ! \) read group bunch ppl fearing information big bad evil govt happens case ordinary joe netter , decided would create distribute misinformation ppl buy bs posts like \( know , forwarded copy post office mate , turned around \( although wo n't admit sorry joe ! \) ready get fight f r f e u r e ! ! ! \) please , 're going hold govt \( admittedly still problems \) high standards , must n't follow \? electronic freedoms go far i'm extremely sorry got message several months ago \( quite bit clipper chip proposal \) posted different newsgroup startling well , guess verified source least extent reposting marc
pmetzger snark shearson com \( perry e metzger \) subject screw people , crypto hard core hackers spooks organization partnership america free drug lines 28 jfc athena mit edu \( john f carr \) writes pmetzger snark shearson com \( perry e metzger \) writes well , i'm lawyer , tell completely utterly untrue u official secrets act laws punish revealing classified information learned capacity government official , contractor , etc , laws prohibit stealing information however , sell chip , ca n't see make reverse engineering revealing details illegal cases information come properly use wish , certainly exceptions write paper includes sufficiently detailed information build nuclear weapon , classified understand law , nuclear weapons design automatically classified even work believe allowed read paper oh \? precedent nuclear weapons information published progressive \? impression court held prior restraint could used lawyers \? perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire , laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
pmetzger snark shearson com \( perry e metzger \) subject overreaction \? organization partnership america free drug distribution na lines 29 jhan debra dgbt doc ca \( jerry han \) writes one happily sleeping people , would like ask n't people slightly overreacting \? sudden going draw parallels nazi germany communist russia \? point matter yes serious problem end world guess \? 're something ca n't communist country nazi germany 're complaining , \( rather , 're complaining \) nobody shooting us would like keep way thats point reacting strongly forcefully , assure continue remain free cannot overreact threat like worst happens overreact waste time effort worst happens tyranny prefer overreaction guess people \? live one countries world person complain without getting shot n't tell precious hard maintain freedom \? centuries overreaction managed maintain state even moderate freedom suggest overreacting future good thing perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire , laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu \( john kelsey \) subject make clipper chip wiretapping less bad nntp posting host mizzou1 missouri edu organization university missouri lines 15 've got idea would remove political complaints clipper chip pass law stating , within year wiretap someone , police agency n't managed convict suspect crime warrant wiretap , agency suspect 1 million repay lost privacy course , still problems technical aspects clipper , one size fits mentality would behind attempt enforce standard would way favor allowing continued wiretaps assure us used cases crime important police certain really conviction john kj
stein2 u washington edu \( jamie \) subject wiretapping reality today article shelley organization university washington lines 43 nntp posting host stein2 u washington edu strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes messages seem reflect view government listening everything one hide one 's clipper messages somehow non escrowed crypto goes away little perspective might order number court ordered wire taps pretty low law enforcement present pretty good evidence get even limited number authorizations thus overwhelming majority conversations neither tapped recorded government , happen \) pretty good reason , evidence b \) use highest priority pretty good reasons though system may imperfect , long way horror stories seem believe anticipate david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted trust government problem members mr sternlight 's generation trust government degree members generation find ridiculous would suggest mr sternlight read cointelpro program , j edgar hoover , wire tapping martin luther king , , digested information ponder fact government tap every conversation record tapping many conversations right , even laws given long history members us government ignoring laws apply , wonder many people sound paranoid , given fact often difficult impossible punish individuals discovered , wonder many people little faith escrow proposal clipper jamie
burt rsa com \( burt kaliski \) subject md5 organization rsa data security , inc lines 89 distribution sci nntp posting host rsa com following short note commenting den boer recent work md5 message digest algorithm feel free email questions comments burt kaliski rsa laboratories article begin document title md5 message digest algorithm author burton kaliski jr tt burt rsa com matthew j b tt matt rsa com rsa laboratories 100 marine parkway redwood city , ca 94065 date april 23 , 1993 message digest algorithm maps message arbitrary length fixed length , three properties computing digest easy , finding message given digest hard , finding two messages digest also hard message digest algorithms many applications , including digital signatures message authentication rsa data security 's md5 message digest algorithm , developed ron rivest cite rfc md5 , maps message 128 bit message digest computing digest one megabyte message takes little second message digest algorithm yet em proved secure , md5 believed least good maps 128 bit digest inversion take 2 128 operations , collision take 2 64 operations one found faster approach inversion collision recent work den boer cite den boer md5 presents special kind md5 's internal compression function , maps 512 bit message block x 128 bit input state 128 bit output state show find message block x two related input states 1 2 yield output state f \( x , 1 \) f \( x , 2 \) well thought approach exploits structural properties collision function find 2 16 operations , much less one would expect practical implications work security md5 evident real collision md5 implies \( \) , need imply real collision indeed , real collision , since involves two different messages , would almost always involve em different message blocks x 1 x 2 f \( x 1 , 1 \) f \( x 2 , 2 \) , message blocks moreover , input states 1 2 would generally unrelated , input states except four bits seem way extend den boer approach anything beyond special , limitation readily admit reasonable , therefore , believe md5 remains secure den boer found interesting structural properties md5 , properties seem lead special anything approaching real collisions research , course , give better understanding strengths md5 message digest algorithms , eventual hope algorithms , sense , proved secure plain begin 1 den boer md5 bert den boer newblock collisions compression function md5 newblock advances cryptology eurocrypt '93 , 1993 newblock rfc md5 r l rivest newblock rfc 1321 md5 message digest algorithm newblock internet activities board , april 1992 end end document
wcs anchor ho att com \( bill stewart 1 908 949 0705 \) subject suggestions escrow agencies \( technical details \) organization mary ellen carter salvage crew reply strnlght netcom com 's message fri , 23 apr 1993 19 31 22 gmt netcom com nntp posting host rainier ho att com lines 46 article netcom com strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) brings issue escrow agent paid , fact government financial leverage n't cooperate 's important issue , especially one escrow agents decides 'd rather stop offering service assume escrow agent n't government , contract providing escrow service would include termination clause like returning keys easiest way user fee clipper chip manufactured makes funding separate government 's user paying fees , 's service \? user government , funding 's separate government user buyer , 's service \? keeping key \? thanks n't need , wo n't buy service ! telling everybody key \? sounds like blackmail ! user manufacturer , user choice buying \? alternative generate key escrow , fine 'd certainly pay kind key escrowed key ! face , escrow provider providing service users n't want people want government , users 're really talking either government paying service , front per year , either general taxes , special direct tax wiretap chips , indirect tax \( forcing manufacturer pay fee escrow agent \) hope escrow people way finding name serial number , especially escrow government agency new jersey , lots people willing provide sort services user fees people willing keep store burning small monthly fee , though sometimes people refuse pay discover service really effective go baseball game yankee stadium , people watch car parking lot small user fee something could scratch paint , shame clipper key got ! pray peace bill bill stewart 1 908 949 0705 wcs anchor att com bell labs 4m312 holmdel nj , i'm new jersey , work cyberspace white house commect line 1 202 456 1111 fax 1 202 456 2461
koontzd phobos lrmsc loral com \( david koontz \) subject make clipper chip wiretapping less bad organization loral rolm computer systems lines 18 reason push clipper \? two days lead story mercury times \( murky news \) another article industrial espionage french someone said hurt allow government continued access communications , already problem , yes access , probably realize government wants exclusive access communications intercept united states , cutting access detrimental national security \( tm \) also doubt letter agency , originated encryption algorithm chip designs needs anything escrow system continue intercept effort better yet , owns company programming \?
wcs anchor ho att com \( bill stewart 1 908 949 0705 \) subject would happen export restrictions violated \? organization mary ellen carter salvage crew reply holland cs colostate edu 's message fri , 23 apr 1993 21 53 06 gmt 469 almaden ibm com apr23 215306 83257 yuma acns colostate edu nntp posting host rainier ho att com lines 28 article apr23 215306 83257 yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu \( douglas craig holland \) writes ok , heard lot talk nsa 's infamous control encryption export itar 's question say develop great new encryption system , want sell software worldwide thought police come say algorithm threat national security permitted export point , kind trouble could get ignored itar sold program international customers anyway \? first , 's thought police , 's export police move overseas great thoughts head , write software , sell , us thought police probably ca n't much , though might want check lawyer first however , write program , sell , international arms dealer get thrown many years , especially decide 'd good example , drug dealers fanatic middle eastern terrorists buy stuff \( definitions public domain different itar purposes , 've got good enough lawyer 'll case free 've confiscated everything evidence , might win nobody wants go first , since stakes quite high \) pray peace bill bill stewart 1 908 949 0705 wcs anchor att com bell labs 4m312 holmdel nj , i'm new jersey , work cyberspace white house commect line 1 202 456 1111 fax 1 202 456 2461
amolitor nmsu edu \( andrew molitor \) subject new encryption algorithm organization department mathematical sciences lines 30 nntp posting host moink nmsu edu summary key insight keywords nea article artmel well sf ca us artmel well sf ca us \( arthur melnick \) writes strongly opposed clipper capstone chips press release today , president , dr stephen stated seems government unlimited source funds use push new bugged chips american public understand national security agency , supposed involved domestic spying , fund development commercial chip intended accommodate u government domestic spying activities well , actually , one 's easy 's job nsa supposed develop cryptosystems government chooses go ahead sell cryptosystems masses , sounds lot like slamming competition , cry justice guys way limb , read right 've commited new algorithm silicon 's made public gonna shamir writes paper showing crack entire class algorithms 5 minutes slide rule pencil \? n't busy throwing muck smear competitors , 'd feel kinda sorry 'em still , little andrew
\( jamie lawrence \) subject tapped , code good distribution na organization sybase , inc lines 34 article 1993apr21 222016 leland stanford edu , arc leland stanford edu \( andrew richard conway \) writes must protest communist country know \? n't , unlikely ever socialist dictatorships , ca n't , whilst socialist democracies \( france australia \) course , people may disagree france australia socialist , \( rather , 're complaining \) nobody shooting us yet guess people \? live one countries world person complain without getting shot circumstances public meeting last night \( usa \) , , nice calm , said speaker started beware opinions , forced meeting two armed policemen lot things one cannot usa may notice , australian visitor , notice course n't react n't react thank andrew firm rebuttal , understanding difference communism socialism \( even though topic \) people understand pretty songs land free sound nice , may true \? take rose colored glasses get clue \( use two better around \) thanks jamie
cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) subject escrow database organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 26 article inf netcom com , strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes article netcom com tcmay netcom com \( timothy c may \) writes waco massacre big brother wiretap chip , tactic fair pernicious nonsense ! david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy since fbi 's account happened contradicted increasingly frequent basis officials investigating fire , pernicious idea believing big brother going well behaved respect cryptographic keys light serious allegations respect doj selling software various intelligence services , suppose chances future doj selling escrowed keys business firms \? trusting government honest fair putting fox charge protecting clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent ,
grant dockmaster ncsc mil \( lynn r grant \) subject get keys organization yale cs mail news gateway lines 16 50 people far asked , fbi gets clipper keys , wo n't able read future past traffic \? response nist , nsa , ms denning , mr hellman , anyone else might able give us authoritative answer troubling n't nsa think \? feature , thought would n't notice \? would thought would responded something form , well , wo n't problem curious lynn grant
strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) subject wiretapping reality today organization dsi uscrpac lines 22 article shelley u washington edu stein2 u washington edu \( jamie \) writes trust government problem members mr sternlight 's generation trust government degree members generation find ridiculous would suggest mr sternlight read cointelpro program , j edgar hoover , read history hoover stopped nixon 's cointelpro dead tracks said unconstitutional tried get around every way could despite things may done , alone , hoover saved constitution david david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted
ed titipu resun com \( edward reid \) subject tapped , please restrict followups organization accuracy , ltd reply ed titipu resun com \( edward reid \) distribution na x mailer uaccess macintosh release 1 lines 6 however valuable , discussion belong comp org acm comp org ieee please edit followups include appropriate newsgroups edward reid fl ed titipu resun com nosc ! ! ed \( looking programming contracts , especially unisys series \)
strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) subject get keys organization dsi uscrpac lines 25 article dockmaster ncsc mil grant dockmaster ncsc mil \( lynn r grant \) writes 50 people far asked , fbi gets clipper keys , wo n't able read future past traffic \? response nist , nsa , ms denning , mr hellman , anyone else might able give us authoritative answer troubling proposal could modified get court order tap n't charge crime within , say , 90 days , buy new phone charge , found innocent , buy new phone \) david david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted
schneier chinet chi il us \( bruce schneier \) subject crypto papers net organization chinet public access unix lines 34 article c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu \( john kelsey \) writes 've recently reading paper merkle 's \( net , think \) discussing three potential replacements des ever done \? khufu , khafre , snefru still discussed anywhere \? \( know snefru referenced rsa faq , think may also sci crypt faq \) related topic , anyone point toward good sites find papers articles discussions cryptology \? think 've exhausted math sci library , n't seem anything recent '84 thanks john kelsey khufu khafre patented \( \) biham shamir showed differential cryptanalysis break 16 round khafre chosen plaintext attack using 1500 different encryptions khafre 24 rounds broken attack using 2 53 different encryptions \( probably efficient differential cryptanalytic attacks , someone wants take time look \) khufu key dependent boxes , immune differential cryptanalysis source code algorithm \( khafre \) patent snefru public domain one way hash function version snefru produces 128 bit hash vulnerable differential cryptanalysis \( vulnerable means attack efficient brute force \) four passes less given , sha md5 much efficient oh yes , anyone interested licensing patent contact dave , director patent licencing xerox , \( 203 \) 986 bruce
tcmay netcom com \( timothy c may \) subject get keys organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 lines 57 \( alt security clipper added , keep informed issue \) david sternlight \( strnlght netcom com \) wrote proposal could modified get court order tap n't charge crime within , say , 90 days , buy new phone charge , found innocent , buy new phone \) yes , buy ticket time machine allow go back use phone new key instead phone whose key obtained \? unclear whether obtaining key time 0 also unlocks messages recorded \( whomever \) earlier times announcement silent betting seems key obtained \( authorities , divorce lawyers , mafia , fbi , lost stolen backup tapes , nsa , etc \) previous conversations unsecure \( session keys negotiated , knowing private key believed many commentators break security doubt details emerge \) , loss key , whether one guilty innocent , may mean lot merely replacing phone sort like saying someone , oh , copied diary 'll buy new one system , made mandatory \( expect \) , make storing conversations much easier , fear one thing , transmission escrow key field acts clear signal anyone listening , kind caller id id grand scale also , phone companies may care much protecting privacy calls , perceive useless encrypted junk \( bit reach , know , suggesting clipper make security lax \) anyway , still lots issues unresolved tim may timothy c may crypto anarchy encryption , digital money , tcmay netcom com anonymous networks , digital pseudonyms , zero 408 688 5409 knowledge , reputations , information markets , w e aptos , ca black markets , collapse governments higher power 2 756839 public key pgp mailsafe available
tcmay netcom com \( timothy c may \) subject overreaction \? organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 distribution na lines 42 perry e metzger \( pmetzger snark shearson com \) wrote would like keep way thats point reacting strongly forcefully , assure continue remain free cannot overreact threat like worst happens overreact waste time effort worst happens tyranny prefer overreaction centuries overreaction managed maintain state even moderate freedom suggest overreacting future good thing perry right target careful analysis clipper chip announcement reveals likely remain voluntary long cost system , cost generating storing escrow keys , admitted security holes pretty much make loser strong crypto , strong crypto allowed battle face totalitarian key registration thing back , shoe dropped commentary criticism time around reveals almost immediate revulsion wiretap chip \( automatic caller id id , n't forget ! \) generates everyone , almost everyone , hears battle ca n't afford lose tim may timothy c may crypto anarchy encryption , digital money , tcmay netcom com anonymous networks , digital pseudonyms , zero 408 688 5409 knowledge , reputations , information markets , w e aptos , ca black markets , collapse governments higher power 2 756839 public key pgp mailsafe available
brad optilink com \( brad yearwood \) subject clipper considered harmful restated amplified organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 155 article 1993apr22 222016 lehman com , pmetzger snark shearson com \( perry e metzger \) writes obviously n't read information system chips put serial number infomation cypher stream allow identified system rely registering people owning particular phone units proposal , lets accurate objections presume tell read system may rely upon registering people owning particular phone units , necessary know phone units likely used suspected criminal communication obtain unit keys escrow necessity raises stakes favor criminal 's coercing use person 's clipper phone assumptions explicitly amplify argument original title perhaps distinction legal illegal cipher systems considered harmful , clipper considered harmful inaccurate , eye catching current context assumptions 1 clipper made available 2 laws passed make use cipher systems clipper illegal \( either radio systems , common carrier system \) laws also include enforcement authority listen across relevant radio spectrum \( medium \) , characterize signals , validate clipper wrappers , detect probable use non clipper ciphers , make detection cause action 3 escrowed keys useful , specific clipper chip must associated suspected criminal means minimum association common carrier 's unique phone id \( esn \) clipper chip serial number n stored government database observed n esn one recorded raises red flag 4 reduce ordinary fraud , cellphone system offers clipper also constructed esn mechanism much tamper proof much less today 's 5 criminals want inscrutable communications criminals entirely stupid ignorant , figure clipper offer excellent security normal circumstances , offer security law enforcement \( presumably legitimate \) wiretap order exists also figure wiretap order must necessarily specific cellphone , one unique unit key 6 criminals want call attention stupid ignorant \( read netnews \) , know open use non clipper cipher likely detected , generally avoid using non clipper ciphers directly tappable channel know would raise red flag , putting given cellphone \( given person \) immediate suspicion 7 impractical reverse engineer skipjack , discover family key f , construct functional clone clipper chip 2 , 3 , 4 , 7 difficult spoof given clipper phone without immediate detection difficult obscure one 's association specific phone changing chips around , criminal motivated find intact phone associated someone else non stupid criminal conclude clipper secure communications , least limited time , buy , beg , borrow , steal use someone 's phone way prevents person reporting compromise phone least time encrypted communications might recorded , thus retrievable later , criminal delay , quite likely evade , discovery destroying abandoning phone would unusual innocent person volunteer use clipper phone someone else honest subscriber n't want pay someone else 's bill , n't want fall suspicion leaves two sources clipper phones criminal use coercion coercion first theft bears relatively low risk , also sometimes low time detection \( minutes phone stolen car parked front store , couple weeks phone stolen someone away vacation \) criminal commerce likely arise stolen clipper phones , phones coming risk poor criminals , cash coming risk wealthy criminals someone motivated gain day two undetected communication \( like terrorist \) could kill person hold hostage limited time \( detection \) coerced phone useful means continuing criminal enterprises require continuing supply freshly coerced phones would also created commerce relatively wealthy criminals , ignorant n't care need money , submit paid return subscribing clipper phone service someone else 's use criminals learn advantage coerce use clipper cellphone apply non clipper cipher normal cellphone call much less attention \( least stolen phone \) way fact phone 's use coerced must first reported identified interesting phone , keys obtained escrow clipper also allows extraordinary opportunity criminal conceal use super encryption automated full system surveillance mechanism \( quite feasible across radio bandwidth \) knows family key f , validate clipper wrappers n esn associations , cannot reveal realtime use super encryption , unless knows unit keys , assured made available two separate pieces , upon specific wiretap like order whereas criminal 's use cipher within normally cleartext medium would stand , criminal 's use non clipper cipher within clipper medium would difficult detect , even ex post facto bulk recordings , long association criminal specific clipper chip make use cipher illegal per se , charge criminal \( identify true criminal 'll using someone else 's phone \) , 'll evidence help whatever traditional crime might planning even able detect unusual \( encrypted \) communications occurring identify specific phones obtain keys escrow terrorist thus arguably , less , secure clipper came along therefore consider clipper harmful 1 provide absolute privacy honest public aggressive dishonest government 2 ciphers proscribed , new types direct criminal threat honest public 3 provides effective mechanism criminals hide use cipher , making difficult ever even gain notice unusual communications occurring plans criminal act might progress 4 ciphers proscribed , lazy investigators prosecutors likely pursue easily quantifiable cipher use crime traditional directly harmful crimes key escrow claimed help 5 ciphers proscribed , stage set witch hunting illegal cipher use computer used cipher machine brad yearwood brad optilink com uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! brad petaluma , ca
mg cs princeton edu \( michael golan \) subject clipper serial numbers need 2nd court order \? originator news nimaster nntp posting host atomic princeton edu organization princeton university lines 28 something one discussed yet \( missed \) fbi sets wiretap court order handed point access line detect serial number n happens next , fbi simply asks keys n , , since warrant issued line , fbi simply gets \? multiple phones used house , fbi asks n1 , n2 , etc \? exactly prevent fbi claiming serial number , x , also used line get keys x \? either second court order \( specific serial key \) required \( seen indication \) , fbi effectively ask pair keys time , escrow key holders total fake unrelated issue phones always use clipper chip , call transfers going take place \? ! michael golan mg cs princeton edu
steve b access digex com \( steve brinich \) subject secret algorithm clipper chip crypto key escrow organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 6 nntp posting host access digex net nonsense ! n't asked larry trust nixon keys , whether would well , explains government real need spy people already love big brother 's people inclined talk back need watched
steve b access digex com \( steve brinich \) subject new encryption algorithm organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 8 nntp posting host access digex net keywords nea well , actually , one 's easy 's job nsa supposed develop cryptosystems government chooses go ahead sell cryptosystems masses , ah , developing cryptosystems specificially designed protect government 's domestic spying capabilities takes beyond mandate , forbidden field domestic wiretapping
steve b access digex com \( steve brinich \) subject suggestions escrow agencies \( technical details \) organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 5 nntp posting host access digex net contrary , entire clipper proposal example government servicing people \( sense term found sentence , farmer paid 100 rent bull service cows \)
graham toal gtoal gtoal com subject key registering bodies originator gtoal pizzabox demon co uk nntp posting host pizzabox demon co uk reply graham toal gtoal gtoal com organization cuddlehogs anonymous lines 11 article 7hl netcom com nagle netcom com \( john nagle \) writes since law requires wiretaps requested executive branch approved judicial branch , seems clear one key registering bodies control judicial branch suggest supreme court , , regionally , courts appeal specifically , offices clerks 've got better idea give one set kgb c washington embassy , set red chinese g
mike avon demon co uk \( mike h \) subject clipper chip crypto key esc distribution world organization boring reply mike avon demon co uk x newsreader simple news 1 90 \( ka9q dis 1 21 \) lines 20 article 1993apr21 memex co uk peter memex co uk writes thought quite difficult record modem session intermediate point line maybe taken crash course data comms unit tones stores digital stream decryption later would still suffer called stated , either uk telecom group , approve equipment encryption n't know true , would make good test case peter peter memex co uk forget obvious ! authorised tap done exchange exchange digital suspect auto monitor line pickup full link therefore piggyback modem line would impossible suspect mike h \( mike avon demon co uk \)
gtoal gtoal com \( graham toal \) subject tapped , code good lines 16 n't think mr clinton even understand technical details clipper encryption scheme , assurances value al , gives says panel experts \( \? \) told lived usa , would hope experts paid fill favorite 3 letter combination doctrine plausible one going tell back door nsa assume sense work would n't pushing clinton might even believe nsa tell , record , n't back door foia request world ever find guys n't play set rules rule book , , 're allowed see either g
stan uucp \( stan \) subject overreacting \( tapped , code good organization temple stan tbs world hq concord , mass , usa lines 17 jhan debra dgbt doc ca \( jerry han \) writes people work within system trying break \? examine history books , find many armed revolutions led democratic \( democratic style \) governments think 'll find one five thousand years written history 's good odds may misreading saying american revolution n't good idea bad odds \? kind doubt revolution , armed otherwise , ever started without vast amounts failed working within system good sign system worth preserving would probably inability work within hopefully 've misunderstood \( btw , i'm big fan arms
helix nih gov \( carl \) subject revised technical summary clipper chip organization national institutes health lines 44 article 1993apr21 3465 guvax acc georgetown edu , denning guvax acc georgetown edu writes chip includes following components skipjack encryption algorithm f , 80 bit family key common chips n , 30 bit serial number \( length subject change \) u , 80 bit secret key unlocks messages encrypted chip see chip used , imagine embedded telephone security device \( \) suppose call someone device pushing button start secure conversation , security device negotiate 80 bit session key k device end key negotiation takes place without clipper chip general , method key exchange used diffie hellman public key distribution method session key k established , clipper chip used encrypt conversation message stream \( digitized voice \) telephone security device feeds k chip produce two values e k , encrypted message stream , e e k u n f , law enforcement field , transmitted telephone line law enforcement field thus contains session key k encrypted unit key u concatenated serial number n , encrypted family key f law enforcement field decrypted law enforcement authorized wiretap installed u used law enforcement field phone placed call , unit whose secure button pressed first , phone transmit law enforcement field \? even assuming one first two choices , fbi going get fresh n , u database every phone call , eventually keys phones used connect line monitoring , key \( assuming ever fbi n't forget key wiretap permission expired \) quite pyramid , bad , either carl helix nih gov worried every day
jluther cs umr edu \( john w luther \) subject tapped , code good nntp posting host mcs213c cs umr edu distribution na organization university missouri rolla , rolla , mo lines 12 article 1993apr21 222016 leland stanford edu arc leland stanford edu \( andrew richard conway \) writes course n't react n't react better yet act john john w luther anybody mistakes jluther cs umr edu best email opinions umr 's 313 compuserve com ! n't know umr
feustel netcom com \( david feustel \) subject escrow database organization dafco os 2 software support consulting lines 5 fox dave feustel n9myi feustel netcom com sig revised
pla sktb demon co uk \( paul l allen \) subject wiretapping reality today reply pla sktb demon co uk organization chaos lines 36 x newsreader archimedes begin pgp signed message article netcom com strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes number court ordered wire taps pretty low law enforcement present pretty good evidence get even limited number authorizations thus overwhelming majority conversations neither tapped recorded government , happen \) pretty good reason , evidence b \) use highest priority pretty good reasons david , given proposition first first paragraph , conclusion second read thus overwhelming majority conversations neither tapped recorded legally government completely argument see requires unbelievable degree stupidity naivete part perhaps 's time say spook agency work paul begin pgp signature version 2 2 z2 end pgp signature
steve b access digex com \( steve brinich \) subject overreaction \? organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 12 distribution na nntp posting host access digex net good points addition , would point one best times fight political battle , much opposition fbi director \( sessions \) way , attorney general \( reno \) long enough find office coffee machine two tries three \( , slow clinton 's saturday night massacre , n't much staff place \) really get lucky , busy trying keep feet held waco fire spend much effort insisting alleged right spy american people swear , n't finished yet james kirk , st iii
jhart agora rain com \( jim hart \) subject trademark violation claimed keywords clipper , wiretap organization open communications forum lines 25 forwarded libernet dartmouth edu date tue , 20 apr 93 10 30 47 pdt clipper clipper ingr com \( al date \) subject clipper chip ! libernet dartmouth edu clipper tm chip registered trademark intergraph corp called clipper chip recently mentioned media respect encryption used violation trademark intergraph clipper chip unix microprocessor , originally developed fairchild semiconductors , relationship encryption chip whatsoever mention hope someone reading group alt privacy clipper established al date
34aej7d cmuvm bitnet distribution usa subject encryption chip availibility lines 16 article andrew cmu edu , stephen j andrew cmu edu says hi everybody ! anyone know companies currently manufacturing encryption chips sale general public \? get ! pointers would greatly appreciated thanks steve believe fisher \( sp \? \) international , makers watchdog \( tm \) pc security package offers hardware implementation des add package
nobody alumni cco caltech edu subject jerry berman pseudonymous privacy organization utexas mail news gateway lines 108 nntp posting host cs utexas edu hello , thought might like see 's letter jerry berman david chaum november 1985 , response information mr chaum sent mr berman congratulate eff prompt response clipper chip announcement white house , think 's important recognize philosophy executive director , explained agree legal remedies important , pressed , 'd prefer retain ability use purely technical solutions preserve privacy , 'll hold fire mr chaum publication letter net n't work , member eff , aclu , similar organizations , agree great many things american civil liberties union washington office 122 maryland avenue , ne november 1 , 1985 washington , dc national headquarters mr david chaum 132 west street centre mathematics computer science new york ny p box \( 212 \) 944 9800 ab amsterdam norman president dear mr chaum ira executive director holmes norton chair national advisory council thank sending interesting article society individuals organizations would expend time resources use series avoid data linkage opinion make big brother obsolete acts assumption big brother ever present view system form societal paranoia matter principle , working enact formal legal protections individual privacy rather relying technical solutions want assume society law respects legal limits rather society disobey law , requiring citizens depend technical solutions e g require warrant government interception data communications rather encrypt messages assumption regardless government abuse power invade privacy matter practicality , think system offers much hope privacy first , trend toward universal much movement generated government industry 's desire keep track citizens citizens seeking simplicity convenience transactions best , system would benefit sophisticated would opt simplicity poor would never use benefit finally 's , 's way government wants link data bases , , law , require disclosure various individual pseudonyms used citizens prohibit data bases government wants link since corporations make money trading commercial lists one another , never adopt system adopted , use fine contracts permit selling various codes used customers firms solution remains law , policy , consensus limits government corporate intrusion areas individual autonomy technique used enforce consensus override cannot used substitute consensus sincerely , sig jerry j berman chief legislative counsel aclu privacy technology project cc john
quilty twain ucs umass edu \( lulu lotus \) subject information mathematics cryptography \( followup \) organization university massachusetts , amherst lines 27 distribution world nntp posting host twain ucs umass edu posted informational request electronically available articles cryptographic algorithms couple days ago mentioned , interested , particular , des public key also would n't mind learning others said , read intro graduate level text book , mathematics , though much number theory per se 'd like see technical details mathematics cryptography , things like scientific say , find really big prime number following request , several people kind suggest reading lists , hope get around two people kind send large documents , presume actual articles \( 1000 lines \) 've stupidly deleted accidentally chance even skim forgive careless use file commands , would original senders kind resend \? anyone else good crypto articles fairly technical mathematical level \? also , ftp able gopher able docs would nice know , lulu message brought enterprises quilty umass edu opinions expressed must employer surely n't think believe !
sun rz tu clausthal de \( joerg \) subject shelf cheap des keyseach machine \( corporate acceptance wiretap chip \) organization univ clausthal x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 lines 31 ag russell \( arussell austin ibm com \) wrote company worked previously , received file des encryped person sent , went vaction rather wait two weeks set straight frontal attack one key time took two \( 2 \) days crack file , n't faith des either really good luck fast machine des 2 56 possible keys , two simply convert , expect 2 54 trial encryptions mean case , assuming known plaintext 2 54 2 \( 24 60 60 \) ca must managed encryptions per microsecond ce builds fast des chip manages 2 \( ! \) encryptions per microsecond yes , i'm seriously bothered security des yet though might prefer use triple des idea , use key bits joerg joerg email rz tu clausthal de strasse 55 smtp 139 174 2 10 w clausthal voice \( work \) 49 72 germany voice \( home \) 49 obtain pgp public key , finger sun rz tu clausthal de , email
anovak twain ucs umass edu \( tree \) subject rush limbaugh 's address \( oops \) organization usr users anovak organization lines 30 nntp posting host twain ucs umass edu think n't get posted \( 've reading usenet longest time , never much interest posting recently \) typed written mr limbaugh , loathe use name rush association , unworthy name common greatest musicians time , band , rush address , wanted compuserve com wrapped respond , maybe better luck \) bye ! tree k andy novak anovak titan ucs umass edu anovak twain ucs umass edu tree k andy novak anovak titan ucs umass edu anovak twain ucs umass edu
eff org \( mitch kapor \) subject jerry berman pseudonymous privacy originator eff org nntp posting host eff org organization electronic frontier foundation lines 21 nobody alumni cco caltech edu correctly states jerry berman 's 1985 view privacy , mistakenly assumes represents berman 's 1993 view eff executive director one people convinced jerry legal protections privacy insufficient , technical measures , especially public key cryptography , also necessary , tell jerry eff fully committed position previous poster apparently unaware long series eff positions support view suggest interested read eff 's position clipper work digital privacy check ftp eff org details one great things human beings capable change evolution thinking idea crypto critical privacy one longer limited certain net , spreading parts public policy community washington mitch kapor co founder , eff
smb research att com \( steven bellovin \) subject clipper considered harmful organization bell laboratories lines 127 article c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu , c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu \( john kelsey \) writes clipper chip 's user key formed r1 e e n1 s1 s2 s1 r2 e e n2 s1 s2 s1 r3 e e n3 s1 s2 s1 triple encrytion used \? gain effective increase keyspace defeat potential keysearch \? \( , use 80 bit keys \? \) knowing anything skipjack algorithm , 's really possible guess whether makes harder easier guess s1 , s2 n1 , n2 , n3 formed \? would facinating see skipjack algorithm , look ways attacking require three ciphertext blocks formed odd way 34 bit constant values concatenated serial number form n1 , n2 , n3 come \? changed chip chip , session session \? \( even 're published ny times , skipjack resistant known plaintext attacks , using triple encryption , 's break security allow kind weird format \? three 34 bit values truly random bits , maybe 's used ensure known plaintext attack skipjack , exists , ca n't easily used derive s1 s2 whole production run chips \) ca n't answer questions detail , take stab form operations compute r1 , r2 , r3 , course , famous suggested use des 's much stronger single encryption , effective key length 160 bits reasons discussed des first standardized , simple double encryption would strength triple encryption used ibm since less beginning encrypt keys 's recommended anything high value think agree r fit description n 1 , n 2 , n 3 \? well , need different plaintext values idea 'll disclosed guess , 're constructed differ many bit positions possible goo cryptosystem scramble things lot even 1 bit change values n series fairly similar bit patterns , might , conceivably , weakness n values i'm guessing chosen increase distance event , i'm quite convinced one cannot go back u , let alone u \( observe nsa u , n't need find even , ca n't get u 1 u 2 theory , never even see values , even warrant \) real question , think , use scheme , opposed hardware random number generator answer much verifiable look suppose nsa , nist , aclu , eff , nra combined build really good random number generator , passed every test could think come back next week program chips , still work well \? components changed value \? components changed \? still work well presence focused microwave beam tends bias towards selecting 1 bits \? yes , run detailed statistical tests , 's hard consider , hand , software solution bring floppies , run cryptographic , etc 's lot easier verify software unchanged , words \( yes , think ways cheat software , think 're lot harder \) three issues clipper first whether architecture whole scheme capable working answer , one significant exception , yes really think nsa nist designed scheme well , assuming real objectives stated permit wiretapping , certain carefully controlled circumstances , minimum risk abuse \( exception u exists outside chip , programming diskette 's seriously wrong u 1 u 2 loaded onto chip separately \) disagree \( n't claim answer obvious , though found reasoning sufficiently persuasive forced rewrite conclusions section technical analysis paper originally blasted scheme \) , issue invitation assume charged implementing system , complete regard civil rights due process would differently \? answering question , please accept nsa 's fundamental assumptions strong cryptography outsiders , ability wiretap domestic users , necessary \( feel necessary challenge assumptions , context last issue present right , i'm discussing technical aspects , n't means claim something done , \) second issue whether whole architecture actually going used clipper chips made way n't mean 's way 'll made maybe nsa substitute chips programming facility shipping dock 'll generate bogus warrant requests , escrow agents n't wonder 've never called \( , guys terrorists drug dealers pedophiles seem bought triple des phones instead 'd 'a' thunk \? '' \) answer question , moment , n't see way answering concerns part reasoning answer final question , third , serious issue , whether clipper good idea even carried strictly according letter law think answer , 's i'm civil libertarian , libertarian , reasons explained great length net elder days , n't energy repeat means i'm willing accept laws necessary , long respect essential rights individuals government already ability system right issue search warrants , power certainly abused , 's also used quite properly fairly cases key escrow sufficiently different \? think , 's easy question \( easy libertarians answer , course , since clipper completely alien much rest \( oft admirable \) philosophy 's also easy give trust government , group i'm much distant \) steve bellovin
mike avon demon co uk \( mike h \) subject s1 , s2 distribution world organization none reply mike avon demon co uk x newsreader simple news 1 90 \( ka9q dis 1 21 \) lines 12 article 102 access digex net steve b access digex com writes theory makes sense s1 s2 either chips , vary among possibilities , anyone trying break encryption brute force need plow possible serial numbers \( 2 30 , one billion \) , multiplied number different s1 , s2 combinations iff phones transmit serial nos part message say phone take serial number use generate required key
smb research att com \( steven bellovin \) subject get keys organization bell laboratories lines 43 article dockmaster ncsc mil , grant dockmaster ncsc mil \( lynn r grant \) writes 50 people far asked , fbi gets clipper keys , wo n't able read future past traffic \? response nist , nsa , ms denning , mr hellman , anyone else might able give us authoritative answer troubling n't nsa think \? feature , thought would n't notice \? would thought would responded something form , well , wo n't problem posted good partial solution problem comp risks 'll present variant instead , since feel 's bit stronger likely attempts cheat depends protocol 's followed reading traffic briefly , cops get wiretap warrant , record call notice encryption disclosure header , along copy warrant , sent fbi , whoever holds family key f holder decrypts header , sends serial number n encrypted session key u k escrow agents , turn , use u1 u2 recover k , send local police note solves problem wiretapping forever neither cops fbi ever see u , ca n't read traffic every request must validated fbi escrow agents cops fbi together ca n't cheat , since n't u \( regard likely folks might try beat system 's prevent modified 's scheme \) escrow agents ca n't read conversation , since n't n u k police n't even see n 's harder see block decryption old , , wiretaps one protection persuade escrow agents call current 's nearly strong approaches see might work , involving sequences data medium , complete cryptographic protection insertion onto new medium n't anything yet n't complex comfort , hard install real world nsa might answer may may smarter , 've working week , 've years
strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) subject clipper considered harmful restated amplified organization dsi uscrpac lines 30 brad yearwood posts long response issue registering phone clipper relationship n't wash recall law enforcement gets court order tap suspect 's phone calls figure lines tap record stuff 's clipper , read law enforcement block , extract serial number , get keys using court order new difficulties \( using someone else 's phone instrument phone line \) introduced would n't existed absent clipper crooks going use pay phone \( say \) , could done without clipper government figures 're , listen , 's clipper conversation get serial number keys crooks use innocent person 's clipper phone tapped line 's problem feds n't care whose phone instrument used , conversation suspect tapped line get serial number , get keys , business clipper chip person association ever needed david david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted
strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) subject secret algorithm clipper chip crypto key escrow organization dsi uscrpac lines 19 article access digex net steve b access digex com \( steve brinich \) writes nonsense ! n't asked larry trust nixon keys , whether would well , explains government real need spy people already love big brother 's people inclined talk back need watched though think overstatement , contain grain truth 's drug dealers , spies , terrorists , organized crime figures \( assuming enough probable cause convince judge \) need watched , law abiding citizens david david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted
strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) subject back doors clipper \? organization dsi uscrpac lines 20 think unlikely back doors clipper , two reasons 1 government n't need get key \( yes , assume official government obeys court orders , etc design chip approval official \) 2 would defeat whole purpose providing secure crypto american business could n't read economic adversaries legitimate genuine purpose , many think , nsa read des , bother otherwise \? rational responses preferred conspiracy theories , thanks david david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted
strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) subject clipper serial numbers need 2nd court order \? organization dsi uscrpac lines 42 article 1993apr23 princeton edu mg cs princeton edu \( michael golan \) writes something one discussed yet \( missed \) fbi sets wiretap court order handed point access line detect serial number n happens next , fbi simply asks keys n , , since warrant issued line , fbi simply gets \? multiple phones used house , fbi asks n1 , n2 , etc \? exactly prevent fbi claiming serial number , x , also used line get keys x \? either second court order \( specific serial key \) required \( seen indication \) , fbi effectively ask pair keys time , escrow key holders total fake two safeguards 1 fbi could asked produce law enforcement block escrow agencies , associate particular court order 2 thing comes trial defense attorneys probe issue closely different proving speaker legal wiretap person court order covered putting another way , question different pre clipper question 's prevent fbi getting court order tap al capone using tap jonathan instead \? david david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted
strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) subject get keys organization dsi uscrpac lines 44 article netcom com tcmay netcom com \( timothy c may \) writes \( alt security clipper added , keep informed issue \) david sternlight \( strnlght netcom com \) wrote proposal could modified get court order tap n't charge crime within , say , 90 days , buy new phone charge , found innocent , buy new phone \) yes , buy ticket time machine allow go back use phone new key instead phone whose key obtained \? unclear whether obtaining key time 0 also unlocks messages recorded \( whomever \) earlier times announcement silent betting seems key obtained \( authorities , divorce lawyers , mafia , fbi , lost stolen backup tapes , nsa , etc \) previous conversations unsecure \( session keys negotiated , knowing private key believed many commentators break security doubt details emerge \) n't matter assume obeying law , since wo n't court order tap calls prior date court order , thus wo n't available n't obeying law , entirely different discussion , least one 's worries david david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted
c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu \( john kelsey \) subject get keys nntp posting host mizzou1 missouri edu organization university missouri lines 25 article dockmaster ncsc mil grant dockmaster ncsc mil \( lynn r grant \) writes 50 people far asked , fbi gets clipper keys , wo n't able read future past traffic \? response nist , nsa , ms denning , mr hellman , anyone else might able give us authoritative answer troubling implied first technical posting dorothy denning fbi would decryption law enforcement agencies n't clear post whether would done realtime , whether fbi would decrypt session keys locals , would whole message one thing i'm bit puzzled n't public key scheme sort \? could generate two public private chip , escrow private keys escrow agencies set protocol encrypt session key public keys decrypt message , escrow agencies \( right order , pk schemes \) decrypt escrowed private key way , would n't , police asked fo warrant wiretap , would key john kelsey
gardner convex com \( steve gardner \) subject would happen export restrictions violated \? nntp posting host imagine convex com organization engineering , convex computer corp , richardson , tx , usa x disclaimer message written user convex computer corp opinions expressed user necessarily convex lines 13 article apr23 215306 83257 yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu \( douglas craig holland \) writes point , kind trouble could get ignored itar sold program international customers anyway \? i'm sure established government prevent sending algorithm abroad nsa seems intimidation far n't try \? \) course could distribute algorithm widely free screw big time \( would approach \) \) smg
pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) subject overreacting \( tapped , code good \) distribution na organization totally unorganized lines 71 article transarc com lyle seaman transarc com writes jhan debra dgbt doc ca \( jerry han \) writes somebody asked wrong overreacting cases probably meant nobody yet seemed jerry suggesting people currently overreacting , vehemently disagree see lot talk , much action see misunderstood jerry 's position reason simple many people want die riot \? new civil war \? everybody jumping screaming , i'm worried people going reach hammers rifles pens paper bunch 'll bitch net , go back lurking people work within system trying break \? examine history books , find many armed revolutions led democratic \( democratic style \) governments think 'll find one five thousand years written history actually , 's quite bad , 's close think everyone would soon work within system presence possibility using bullet box instead ballot box supposed deterrent keeping price massive abuse unacceptable however , governments , sure would like remove deterrence , make need armed citizens great \( n't need 'em till n't 'em \) think accurately called instead idea people sovereign government sure vogue beltway days , sure administration saying know best tell need , n't need , old fashioned anachronism called bill rights needed look , \( collectively \) power throw bums , n't use clearly n't need go burning things , government way eight bills congress either ban , tax , register useful weapons hands unconnected us subject say 200 00 box cartridges practice \? one current administrations top priority items disarm well connected , work government clearly need throw least bums unfortunately , bums learned target small groups people single time , masses wo n't react throw eventually , masses react , unless bums cease relentless encroachment liberty economy sooner happens , less damages n't want live war zone , either want see bums thrown real damage another tactic toss many outrages nobody give justice like done right lyle transarc 707 grant street 412 338 4474 gulf tower pittsburgh 15219 pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc 1 207 \( pat myrto \) seattle , wa else fails , try ! uunet ! pilchuck ! rwing ! pat wisdom two things infinite universe human stupidity , sure former albert einstien
jim rand org \( jim gillogly \) subject clipper considered harmful organization banzai institute lines 49 nntp posting host mycroft rand org steve bellovin writes well thought nearly persuasive article clipper \( still calling clipper today , figured non infringing word yet \? \) protocol almost good one given marching article 1993apr24 ulysses att com smb research att com \( steven bellovin \) writes issue invitation assume charged implementing system , complete regard civil rights due process would differently \? answering question , please accept nsa 's fundamental assumptions strong cryptography outsiders , ability wiretap domestic users , necessary 'll accept second assumption sake argument view primary remaining flaw encryption algorithm secret , leading suspicion back door without complete disclosure suspicion cannot , matter many trusted experts allowed look isolation possible whole thing public algorithm \? concern 've seen making skipjack public someone could build without registering keys assume f really kept secret government assumes part initial connection , executes protocol demonstrate know f example , initiating phone picks number q sends e q f receiver sends back e q 1 f , sends back e q 2 f demonstrate first packet n't random 64 bit block repeat opposite direction another q ca n't defeated somebody building library sequential numbers remembering responses using responses initial numbers subsequent challenges way talk course pseudo company build proprietary skipjack phone , presidential fact sheet implies wo n't get approval without equivalent key escrow 's wrong picture \? depends f staying secret skipjack resistant cryptanalysis , government appears believe even particular q suggest flaw , imagine 's zero knowledge proof protocol n't smb says third , serious issue , whether clipper good idea even carried strictly according letter law agreed view , quote 's worth , 's worth well jim gillogly , 3 r 1993 , 20 48
steve b access digex com \( steve brinich \) subject escrow , escrowing ok organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 24 nntp posting host access digex net description something called fair crypto system may 1993 issue byte , p 134 , attributed mit professor silvio way works follows generate private key , break pieces s1 , s2 , s3 , s4 , s5 , \( s1 s2 s5 \) mod p give piece s1 , s2 , etc different escrow agency agencies compute g sn mod p , forward result public key telephone book keeper public key telephone book keeper g sn mod p , reduces result mod p , user 's public key , several hundered recognized escrow agencies , user could give piece key ones trusted , result would something improvement proposed clipper system still n't think key escrow good idea , philosophical security reasons , offer suggestion simply determine whether escrow advocates interested considering alternatives good faith , whether goal insure use two agencies selected face official requests
steve b access digex com \( steve brinich \) subject clipper considered harmful restated amplified organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 20 distribution inet nntp posting host access digex net crooks use innocent person 's clipper phone tapped line 's problem feds n't care whose phone instrument used , conversation suspect tapped line get serial number , get keys , business , admit clipper opens doors wide following scenario feds need keys joe blow 's phone escrow agent joe blow \? warrant tap line \? feds well , , warrant tap carlos slime devil line , tap shows mr gonzales using mr blow 's phone escrow agent well , ok
steve b access digex com \( steve brinich \) subject secret algorithm clipper chip crypto key escrow organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 9 nntp posting host access digex net though think overstatement , contain grain truth 's drug dealers , spies , terrorists , organized crime figures \( assuming enough probable cause convince judge \) need watched , law abiding citizens n't tell tell feds , , need get clue
bzs world std com \( barry \) subject clipper considered harmful restated amplified reply strnlght netcom com 's message sat , 24 apr 1993 18 12 10 gmt organization world ifd netcom com lines 50 crooks use innocent person 's clipper phone tapped line 's problem feds n't care whose phone instrument used , conversation suspect tapped line get serial number , get keys , business clipper chip person association ever needed yeah , wants start pool first person arrested mistakenly life turned upside law enforcement agency make chip person association \? wonder plans keep records \( e g encode serial number scanned k mart along credit card info , voila \) least phone number tends locate house whatever \( e coming telephone number person likely house etc \) , plus minus course 'd hate think guys getting clipper id , recording conversation , quick cross lookup name comes owner id \( mistakenly , maybe sold phone garage sale phone stolen car whatever \) might know one side conversation , example anyone thinks govt forbidden law cross correlate databases loses two points first , law enforcement agencies course second , 're forbidden money irs , example , anyhow n't spend money 's \( technically \) legal guess instead probably trade little favors companies like mastercard \( 're irs 'll bet lot opportunities trade favors major corps databases \) know , irs guy read amazing list \( screen , could hear typing pull screen \) phone dispute \( intimidate , actually , much dispute , n't particularly disagree , reason fellow wanted play tough guy , hope 's better \) amazing stuff finger tips afraid barry software tool die bzs world std com uunet ! world ! bzs trade voice 617 739 login 617 739
jon c r bennett jb7m andrew cmu edu subject clipper considered harmful restated amplified organization robotics institute , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 14 distribution inet ifd netcom com nntp posting host po3 andrew cmu edu reply ifd netcom com strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes crooks use innocent person 's clipper phone tapped line 's problem feds n't care whose phone instrument used , conversation suspect tapped line get serial number , get keys , business clipper chip person association ever needed phones jon
caronni nessie cs id ethz ch \( germano caronni \) subject get keys organization swiss federal institute technology \( eth \) , zurich , ch lines 24 article netcom com tcmay netcom com \( timothy c may \) writes unclear whether obtaining key time 0 also unlocks messages recorded \( whomever \) earlier times announcement silent betting seems key obtained \( authorities , divorce lawyers , mafia , fbi , lost stolen backup tapes , nsa , etc \) previous conversations unsecure \( session keys negotiated , knowing private key believed many commentators break security doubt details emerge \) completely clear assume byte encrypted compromised people wondered , denning , hellman others respond , asked would done compromised phones , compromise could restricted time \( \) let us assume \) know b \) know n't tell c \) care seem 's person 's problem' gec instruments register things 're designed register space still contains infinite unknowns pgp key id 341027 germano caronni caronni nessie cs id ethz ch fd560ccf586f3da747ea3c94dd01720f
pmetzger snark shearson com \( perry e metzger \) subject need clipper cheap security \? organization partnership america free drug lines 25 pdc dcs ed ac uk \( paul crowley \) writes fast fastest modems go \? shannon limit voice lines likely somewhere around rapidly approaching fastest affordable full duplex modems currently market v32bis , far voice compressed \? celp manages sound decent 4800 bps theory , built speech recognition system turned voice ascii , perfect synthesis system end sounded like person speaking , could get information content speech various kinds , get 2400 bps prehaps even less , point sounds horrible 4800 bps purposes perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire , laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
phys hawaii edu \( john flanagan \) subject secret source announcement organization university hawaii , dept physics astronomy distribution inet lines 25 article lerami lerctr org merlin lerami lerctr org \( david hayes \) writes company routinely sent manufacturing data field offices japanese simply intercepted friend , computer systems admin , came solution started sending data double block encrypted des two days new distribution plan implemented , president company got visit pair government agents told knock president gave , since company considerable business federal government , government n't monitoring communications , would even know encryption system installed \? sure two visitors really government agents \? \) john john flanagan believe theories , phys hawaii edu give feeling u hawaii , dept physics astro security , , inflate rd , honolulu , hi ego enormously
pmetzger snark shearson com \( perry e metzger \) subject tempest organization partnership america free drug distribution na lines 11 whughes lonestar utsa edu \( william w hughes \) writes hell , set spark jammer , electrically noisy device 've noted , likely get around directional sensor phased array systems could completely defeat scheme perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire , laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
feeley cattell psych upenn edu \( wm michael feeley \) subject clipper conference calls organization university pennsylvania lines 5 nntp posting host cattell psych upenn edu curious , would clipper chip system handle conference calls \?
hpcc01 corp hp com \( john c king \) subject wanted pub 16 organization hp corporate notes server lines 10 i'm looking copy friedman 's publication 16 methods solution running key ciphers agean park press tells publication c 23 publications , volume 1 print anyone snail mail photocopy 16 \? someone could would much appreciated regards , john king corp hp com
warlord mit edu \( derek atkins \) subject screw people , crypto hard core hackers spooks organization massachusetts institute technology lines 18 netcom com nntp posting host podge mit edu reply strnlght netcom com 's message 21 apr 93 00 07 53 gmt article netcom com strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes countries laws importing crypto gear believe u without license scheme wo n't work \( least legally \) countries , including least france u david bzzt ! wrong us crypto import laws derek derek atkins , mit '93 , electrical engineering computer science secretary , mit student information processing board \( sipb \) mit media laboratory , speech research group warlord mit edu pp asel n1nwh
whughes lonestar utsa edu \( william w hughes \) subject tempest nntp posting host lonestar utsa edu organization university texas san antonio distribution na lines 16 article 1993apr24 lehman com pmetzger snark shearson com \( perry e metzger \) writes whughes lonestar utsa edu \( william w hughes \) writes hell , set spark jammer , electrically noisy device 've noted , likely get around directional sensor phased array systems could completely defeat scheme true , basic idea behind communications security system absolutely deny access , make access expensive \( time , money , manpower \) worth remember waco ! government decide murder next \? maybe \? opinions mine n't care blame university state
mbeckman mbeckman mbeckman com \( mel beckman \) subject tapped , code good organization beckman software engineering reply mbeckman mbeckman com distribution world x mailer uaccess lite macintosh release 1 5v5 lines 37 article strnlghtc5who2 1fk netcom com \( sci crypt , alt security , comp org ieee \) , strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes maybe , 's quite common millions macintosh users idea 's apple 's patented roms many modems connected know business secrets n't stolen \? answer 1 trust apple 2 attempt , however sophicsticated , came , would destroy apple 's credibility forever david , neither \( 1 \) \( 2 \) apply government , though feds , unlike apple , repeatedly demonstrated trust unsafe thread hang freedom \? unlike apple \( 2 \) , govt credibility lose i'm serious one name agency irs , , fcc , faa , fbi , nsa , cia find numerous examples public trust run worse , one rarely find examples serious consequences offending agency even supposing could get reign trust somehow , 's always matter competence govt agencies even trust \? mel p amused mentioned usda example agency capable managing escrow i'm consultant usda , work wonderful grin , agency ranked industry publications govt computer news one worst computer resources recently , prime time live long segment usda 's computer troubles making concerted effort change , intentions n't make track record mel beckman internet mbeckman mbeckman com beckman software engineering compuserve 75226 , 2257 ventura , ca 93003 voice fax 805 647 1641 805 647 3125 observe lot watching yogi bera
jhesse netcom com \( john hesse \) subject fighting clipper initiative organization netcom online communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 18 article netcom com strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes er , excuse since escrow agencies n't yet chosen , say history untrustworthy behavoir sic \? i'm sure us think agencies without history price kept secret academy awards many years , even damn , 're dead right ! pretty much settles worry john hesse man , jhesse netcom com plan , moss beach , calif canal , bob
rogue ccs northeastern edu \( free radical \) subject clipper considered harmful restated amplified nntp posting host damon ccs northeastern edu organization college cs , northeastern u distribution inet lines 43 article access digex net steve b access digex com \( steve brinich \) writes feds need keys joe blow 's phone escrow agent joe blow \? warrant tap line \? feds well , , warrant tap carlos slime devil line , tap shows mr gonzales using mr blow 's phone escrow agent well , ok go like feds need key phone escrow warrant tap line phone \? feds yes escrow fine , key happens , feds tap line find clipper used extract serial number get key decipher serial number never registered specific owner , sent part conversation give clipper phone , need register \( mainly never first place \) lot things bother clipper , one let 's get facts straight waste effort straw men ra rogue cs neu edu \( rogue agent sod ! \) nsa funding research cryptography , areas advanced mathematics 'd like circular describing new research opportunities , pick phone , call mother , ask one
smb research att com \( steven bellovin \) subject clipper considered harmful distribution inet organization bell laboratories lines 34 article wcs rainier att com , wcs anchor ho att com \( bill stewart 1 908 949 0705 \) writes hand , easily see recording traffic interesting people , dissidents , suspected criminals , foreign telephone calls , anybody noticed using encryption ken , recording encrypted traffic probably judged invasion privacy pretty soon read current wiretap law , would legal hand , assuming legislative change , recording decrypting clipper conversations would probably found constitutional supreme court , using reasoning \( lack thereof \) permit random roadblocks check drunk drivers incidentally , use model , court likely uphold selective recording \( hand , n't think 've thrown courier yet must exception fourth amendment never find copy bill rights \) lot mean lot depend exactly \( , encrypted music \? \) used showed latest risks digest 's possible prevent cops reading traffic warrant expires cops send f holder f holder strips f , sends u k , n escrow agents send either u k cops \( says u , say k \) cops ca n't use u future , ca n't strip f f holder never sees u 's model , escrow agents ca n't read traffic , n't k model , k , message trust think cops fbi \( f holder \) likely collaborate breaking rules net result involving f holder escrow agents every tap , avoid extending permission tap
mbeckman mbeckman mbeckman com \( mel beckman \) subject suggestions escrow agencies \( technical details \) organization beckman software engineering reply mbeckman mbeckman com distribution world x mailer uaccess lite macintosh release 1 5v5 lines 29 article netcom com \( sci crypt , alt privacy clipper \) , strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes easiest way user fee clipper chip manufactured makes funding separate government also neat side property chip n't catch , scheme breaks , government back drawing boards , assuming n't prohibited alternatives meantime fact , maybe part official system government allowed move past experimental stage , demonstrate economic viability mass adoption david , disagree strongly issue trusting government , think good idea danger , funding coming asset , government could continue promulgate bad product spite poor acceptance making product pay way \( must private ventures \) would good incentive quality listening , \) mel mel beckman internet mbeckman mbeckman com beckman software engineering compuserve 75226 , 2257 ventura , ca 93003 voice fax 805 647 1641 805 647 3125 observe lot watching yogi bera
mbeckman mbeckman mbeckman com \( mel beckman \) subject wiretapping reality today organization beckman software engineering reply mbeckman mbeckman com distribution world x mailer uaccess lite macintosh release 1 5v5 lines 18 article netcom com \( sci crypt \) , strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes read history hoover stopped nixon 's cointelpro dead tracks said unconstitutional tried get around every way could unfortunately , hoover thought constitution , whatever considered limits others obey ruthlessly invaded privacy many private public citizens mel mel beckman internet mbeckman mbeckman com beckman software engineering compuserve 75226 , 2257 ventura , ca 93003 voice fax 805 647 1641 805 647 3125 observe lot watching yogi bera
holland cs colostate edu \( douglas craig holland \) subject tempest distribution na nntp posting host beethoven cs colostate edu organization colorado state university , computer science department lines 25 article 1993apr25 ringer cs utsa edu whughes lonestar utsa edu \( william w hughes \) writes article 1993apr24 lehman com pmetzger snark shearson com \( perry e metzger \) writes whughes lonestar utsa edu \( william w hughes \) writes hell , set spark jammer , electrically noisy device 've noted , likely get around directional sensor phased array systems could completely defeat scheme true , basic idea behind communications security system absolutely deny access , make access expensive \( time , money , manpower \) worth another idea use laptop computer mentioned earlier , lcd screen lot less noisy standard crt , since many laptops power supplies run 3 volts instead 5 , would considerably quieter doug holland doug holland anyone tries take away freedom holland cs colostate edu speech pry pgp key available e mail cold , dead lips ! !
mg hart \( michael golan \) subject clipper serial numbers need 2nd court order \? originator news nimaster nntp posting host hart princeton edu organization princeton university lines 34 strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes two safeguards 1 fbi could asked produce law enforcement block escrow agencies , associate particular court order exactly would show , \? ! law enforcement block easy create , given government key serial number 2 thing comes trial defense attorneys probe issue closely different proving speaker legal wiretap person court order covered comes trail wiretap ya , harass people result , learn things n't learned , etc \? putting another way , question different pre clipper question 's prevent fbi getting court order tap al capone using tap jonathan instead \? whole point escrow system prevent fbi making illegal wiretaps fbi holds keys 's \? need escrow system \? unless 3rd party \( judge \) verifies requested serial number right , fbi get key like anytime , escrow system useless michael golan mg cs edu
rdippold qualcomm com \( ron asbestos dippold \) subject get keys originator rdippold qualcom qualcomm com nntp posting host qualcom qualcomm com organization qualcomm , inc , san diego , ca lines 14 strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes proposal could modified get court order tap n't charge crime within , say , 90 days , buy new phone charge , found innocent , buy new phone \) yeah , right , atf place bad tip pay repair , sure computer equipment raid charge crime within , say , 90 days 're stretching naivete bit one love two minds without single thought philip barry
zrepachol cc curtin edu au \( paul repacholi \) subject seen lobby , us lines 20 organization curtin university technology article 1993apr22 nynexst com , rsilvers nynexst com \( robert silvers \) writes send something rush linbaugh clinton taking away right privacy govt standard takes , people lots money \( drug dealers \) able justify des stuff slam clinton air well , lets hypothetical put selves place us end drug rings cripple chip \? first , would express congress critters , remind large sums money legitimate co provide coffers would also let know via channels \) income take hit , b \) health may good either case , next obvious step take buy vlsi ! yeah , free enterprise work \) cripple pockets , well tough masses though paul
reply jhupp shockwave win net \( jeff hupp \) jhupp shockwave win net \( jeff hupp \) subject pgp get \? lines 16 new news group net things heard pgp encryption program anybody know might get version program runs windows 3 1 , ms dos , unix w source \? writting unix access running nifty windows thanks advance ! jeff hupp internet jhupp shockwave win net 9797 medowglen , apt 1807 ad contract programming , novell houston , texas 77042 network design support voice \( 713 \) 780 9419 best govenment n't
jhart agora rain com \( jim hart \) subject dorothy denning opposes clipper , capstone wiretap chips organization open communications forum lines 4 security system depend secrecy keys secrecy algorithms dorothy denning jhart agora rain com
smb research att com \( steven bellovin \) subject clipper conference calls organization bell laboratories lines 6 article netnews upenn edu , feeley cattell psych upenn edu \( wm michael feeley \) writes curious , would clipper chip system handle conference calls \? 's clipper , 's encryption system 've seen number designs generally involve multi line cleartext bridge
subject tempest pgut1 cs aukuni ac nz \( peter gutmann \) 1993apr22 infodev cam ac uk 1993apr22 ringer cs utsa edu organization computer science dept university auckland lines 27 1993apr22 ringer cs utsa edu whughes lonestar utsa edu \( william w hughes \) writes hell , set spark jammer , electrically noisy device build active cage around room , noise signal piped measures totally mask emissions equipment , provide sufficient interference make remote monitoring proposition , best , course , consideration measures may \( almost \) cause certain amount interference systems 's matter balancing security versus convenience problem also cause certain amount interference systems within range device long time ago built small jammer dissuade brother using radio alarm clock something like , enough range cover room however something powerful enough mask \( least \) emissions computer equipment also going knock half radio tv reception n't going make many friends incidentally , older model makes fine wideband jammer grin peter pgut1 cs aukuni ac nz p gutmann cs aukuni ac nz gutmann p kosmos wcc govt nz gen nz peter nacjack gen nz peter nacjack gen nz \( order preference one 'em 's bound work \) everything different changed
subject crypto papers net pgut1 cs aukuni ac nz \( peter gutmann \) organization computer science dept university auckland lines 26 c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu \( john kelsey \) writes 've recently reading paper merkle 's \( net , think \) discussing three potential replacements des ever done \? khufu , khafre , snefru still discussed anywhere \? \( know snefru referenced rsa faq , think may also sci crypt faq \) paper distributed \( wishes nsa copy footnotes \) , eventually published one crypto conferences things looking good xerox patented algorithms ! n't know anything uses also , khafre broken later conference work related algorithm n't think existing khufu would hold well converted differential cryptanalysis attack , although probably changed resist type attack peter case n't know , check new hacker 's dictionary 's sound someone makes fall bottom killfile
warlord mit edu \( derek atkins \) subject clipper conference calls organization massachusetts institute technology lines 28 nntp posting host podge mit edu reply smb research att com 's message sun , 25 apr 1993 11 48 20 gmt article 1993apr25 ulysses att com smb research att com \( steven bellovin \) writes article netnews upenn edu , feeley cattell psych upenn edu \( wm michael feeley \) writes curious , would clipper chip system handle conference calls \? 's clipper , 's encryption system 've seen number designs generally involve multi line cleartext bridge depending encryption system , long everyone key , done example , using vat , internet audio tool , conference call , encrypting session \( unfortunately , one site work , n't cpu , n't sound good different site \) , n't clear text bridge , totally internal one sites involved conversation derek derek atkins , mit '93 , electrical engineering computer science secretary , mit student information processing board \( sipb \) mit media laboratory , speech research group warlord mit edu pp asel n1nwh
schneier chinet chi il us \( bruce schneier \) subject new encryption algorithm keywords nea organization chinet public access unix lines 14 article 1raeir be1 access digex net steve b access digex com \( steve brinich \) writes well , actually , one 's easy 's job nsa supposed develop cryptosystems government chooses go ahead sell cryptosystems masses , ah , developing cryptosystems specificially designed protect government 's domestic spying capabilities takes beyond mandate , forbidden field domestic wiretapping unlike cia , nsa prohibition domestic spying read bamford 's puzzle palace bruce
hal cco caltech edu \( hal finney \) subject let 's build software cryptophones internet organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 26 nntp posting host alumni caltech edu gtoal gtoal com \( graham toal \) writes forwarded old posting celp speech compression 've since told source cygnus com pub celp speech tar z i'm position sun tcp ip gurus think marry end week \? \) seriously think someone real net access two sparcs could running end week ask pgp guys add crypto filter two weeks damn , wish sparc back i'm stuck 25mhz 386sx tried code yesterday sparcstation elc takes 300 seconds compress 22 seconds' worth speech means needs optimized factor 10 usable even half duplex mode question whether celp best approach application produces great compression expense tremendous cpu loads want something run ordinary workstations even high end pc 's without dsp cards guess algorithm going better starting point hal finney
hal cco caltech edu \( hal finney \) subject s1 , s2 organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 38 nntp posting host alumni caltech edu steve b access digex com \( steve brinich \) writes second question ! \? ! \? strange procedure used , real rng \? turns s1 , s2 kind bottleneck system security theory makes sense s1 s2 either chips , vary among possibilities , anyone trying break encryption brute force need plow possible serial numbers \( 2 30 , one billion \) , multiplied number different s1 , s2 combinations interpretation denning 's description s1 s2 chosen randomly agents key escrow companies start 300 chip programming session imagine chips carrier allow programmed fairly quickly would need transfer chips one time little pla programmer people envisioned guess procedure used basing keys s1 s2 using specified algorithm provides \( principle \) way verify back doors exist choice random numbers used generate keys since trust escrow companies anyway , weaken system keys generated random seeds entered escrow agents since algorithm key generation public \( modulo skipjack secrecy \) principle agent could challenge procedure , ask s1 s2 exposed , run independent calculation u1 u2 verify actually put onto floppies yes , many ways failures follow scheme could hard check laptop probably really destroyed time hidden cameras ceiling could see s1 s2 entered trusted escrow agents back doors chip could allow u recovered heck , chip could recorded u , ignoring floppy hal finney
schneier chinet chi il us \( bruce schneier \) subject would happen export restrictions violated \? organization chinet public access unix lines 15 article apr23 215306 83257 yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu \( douglas craig holland \) writes ok , heard lot talk nsa 's infamous control encryption export itar 's question say develop great new encryption system , want sell software worldwide thought police come say algorithm threat national security permitted export point , kind trouble could get ignored itar sold program international customers anyway \? doug holland would arrested international arms bruce
cats ucsc edu \( \) subject seen lobby , us organization university california , santa cruz lines 29 distribution nntp posting host ws 2 ucsc edu yuma acns colostate edu ns111310 lance colostate edu \( nathaniel sammons \) writes article 1993apr21 163929 21149 eff org charles gross acg eff org writes certainly , way cool internet powers organization , act way , action appropriate long kept informed events , anyone bboard make call action hopefully , 're strong enough community act calls realize little , i'm glad eff working loop issues , n't underestimate potential net political action adam speak second motion favor \? sounds great would something like done \? start news group discussions things like lobbying get non computer geeks pissed \? matthew cline read letters editor colum time response article teen suicide people cats ucsc edu aware dangers killing
nagle netcom com \( john nagle \) subject new encryption algorithm keywords nea organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 36 artmel well sf ca us \( arthur melnick \) writes ever since craig posted piece new encryption sci crypt discussion company , secured communications technologies , inc , encryption algorithm , nea classic comment new encryption algorithms comes friedman new cypher worth considering unless comes someone already broken hard one historically , friedman right 's really hard develop good cypher ibm 's lucifer , precursor des , turns fatally flawed des like systems des seem vulnerable differential cryptanalysis first two tries public key encryption \( remember \? \) broken machine era broken eventually attempts computer era home brew encryption disappointing classic survey data insecurity packages cryptologia contains analyses breaking techniques popular security packages late 1980s new , proprietary algorithm \? way us permitting general export thing , weak 's current regulations work currently 's willingness allow systems short keys \( 32 bits appears problem 56 bits des many \) weak algorithms \( think word perfect qualifies rule \) exported ca n't believe guys technique pto state department 's arms control division without finding john nagle p , i'm thrilled clipper either , 's different issue
oml eloka demon co uk \( owen lewis \) subject tempest distribution world organization eloka project management reply oml eloka demon co uk x newsreader simple news 1 90 \( ka9q dis 1 21 \) lines 19 article 1993apr25 ringer cs utsa edu whughes lonestar utsa edu writes article 1993apr24 lehman com pmetzger snark shearson com basic idea behind communications security system absolutely deny access , make access expensive \( time , money , manpower \) worth true security , think , fundamental measure used establishing requisite security level owen lewis tele fax 44 \( 0 \) 794 eloka project management oml eloka demon co uk pgp 2 x public key request
graham toal gtoal gtoal com subject let 's build software cryptophones internet originator gtoal pizzabox demon co uk nntp posting host pizzabox demon co uk reply graham toal gtoal gtoal com organization cuddlehogs anonymous lines 21 article gap caltech edu hal cco caltech edu \( hal finney \) writes tried code yesterday sparcstation elc takes 300 seconds compress 22 seconds' worth speech means needs optimized factor 10 usable even half duplex mode ouch ! thanks trying question whether celp best approach application produces great compression expense tremendous cpu loads want something run ordinary workstations even high end pc 's without dsp cards guess algorithm going better starting point yes i'm sure comp speech made , 've found low sample rate \( 3300 samples sec 8 bits per sample \) plus pd lossless sound compression code actually get speech 14 4k left definitely worth working , folks shorten works well real time g
smk5 quads uchicago edu \( steve kramarsky \) subject clipper considered harmful reply smk5 midway uchicago edu organization university chicago distribution inet lines 34 article 1993apr23 ulysses att com smb research att com \( steven bellovin \) writes cops send f holder f holder strips f , sends u k , n escrow agents send either u k cops \( says u , say k \) cops ca n't use u future , ca n't strip f f holder never sees u 's model , escrow agents ca n't read traffic , n't k model , k , message trust think cops fbi \( f holder \) likely collaborate breaking rules net result involving f holder escrow agents every tap , avoid extending permission tap 've reading board passively find subject absolutely fascinating , especially point view civil rights nut like problem i'm new field paragraphs like keep popping i'm sure mr bellovin writing fascinating important , idea means \) anyway i'm keen learn read anything get hands explains stuff lay terms \( decent cs background , huge amount hyper advanced math \) anyone point faq decent source information guts current cryptography maybe little history well \? read piece month 's wired , anyone tell much trust references suggest \? thanks advance , steve steve kramarsky , university chicago law school steve chi il us smk5 quads uchicago edu kiss girl jake , night hanging
brunel ac uk \( \) subject looking ms dos crypto programs organization brunel university , uxbridge , uk x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 19 maddison , david wrote new reader sci crypt would like obtain copy public domain program encrypt files , preferably using des , runs ms dos would also like obtain program password protect floppy disks , possible thanks david maddison melbourne , australia find floppy password protect program , could e mail thanks marcus jones brunel ac uk dept materials technology , brunel university pgp v2 2 public key request
jim rand org \( jim gillogly \) subject new encryption algorithm organization banzai institute lines 42 nntp posting host mycroft rand org article 5v5 chinet chi il us schneier chinet chi il us \( bruce schneier \) writes article 1raeir be1 access digex net steve b access digex com \( steve brinich \) writes ah , developing cryptosystems specificially designed protect government 's domestic spying capabilities takes beyond mandate , forbidden field domestic wiretapping unlike cia , nsa prohibition domestic spying read bamford 's puzzle palace 're mistaken nsa 's communications intelligence mission strictly foreign governments 's excerpt enabling charter \( 24 oct 52 , truman \) clarify charter declassified feb 1990 foia request made public mind , n't know never collect anything 're supposed spying us citizens n't charter b comint mission national security agency \( nsa \) shall provide effective , unified organization control communications intelligence activities united states conducted foreign governments , provide integrated operational policies procedures pertaining used directive , terms communications intelligence comint shall construed mean procedures methods used interception communications foreign press propaganda broadcasts obtaining information communications intended recipients , shall exclude censorship production dissemination finished intelligence 're also protecting us 's communications , n't seen specific enabling memo assume 's role skipjack developed nsa standard setting business , though 's clipper stuff came nist , believe coming standards based best inputs government agencies , would include nsa jim gillogly , 4 r 1993 , 21 59
mjr tis com \( marcus j ranum \) subject let 's build software cryptophones internet organization trusted information systems , inc lines 48 nntp posting host sol tis com graham toal gtoal gtoal com writes yes i'm sure comp speech made , 've found low sample rate \( 3300 samples sec 8 bits per sample \) plus pd lossless sound compression code actually get speech 14 4k left definitely worth working , folks shorten works well real time n't think worked context cryptography 's sure pose sorts problems sorts people 's needed someone develop portable telephone quality speech rs232 converter imagine , , little box takes data serial port puts sound , takes sound codes signals serial port full duplex , device cryptographic device 's portable poor man 's sound blaster whatever want call 's got loads perfectly legitimate applications \) speech synthesis \( nifty libraries samples \) b \) speech recording electronic messaging c \) building voicemail systems \) internet talk radio e \) internet relay chat course , electronic messaging item b might encrypted , possibly realtime , 's user 's decision one would need 2 boxes pair modems kind cutout switch , code , say , 486 laptop 'd really like see thing developed interactive internet talk radio could done ideally , though , general purpose device general purpose enough device nobody able balk widespread use obviously , make easy , use pretty common hardware 's interesting note 'd already talked couple folks building thing , whole clipper thing started even went far track couple folks able make sample units , given incentive time 'd envisioned finding couple folks interested project helping fund development public domain board layout parts set , could published form cad drawings couple major cad packages , postscript anyone interested \? 'll start provisional mailing list let know want mjr
strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) subject clipper considered harmful restated amplified organization dsi uscrpac distribution inet lines 29 article andrew cmu edu jon c r bennett jb7m andrew cmu edu writes strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes crooks use innocent person 's clipper phone tapped line 's problem feds n't care whose phone instrument used , conversation suspect tapped line get serial number , get keys , business clipper chip person association ever needed phones direction finding directional monitoring receivers say little black truck \? \) david jon david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted
garnet berkeley edu \( ted \) subject trademark violation claimed organization university california , berkeley lines 6 distribution inet nntp posting host garnet berkeley edu keywords clipper , wiretap risc processor made fairchild , sold intergraph , much story r4000 remember lost control star wars dod started using name \? loss confirmed court
mjs behemoth genetics wisc edu \( mike schmelzer \) subject secret algorithm clipper chip crypto key escrow reply strnlght netcom com 's message sat , 24 apr 1993 18 19 50 gmt organization uw netcom com access digex net netcom com lines 39 argh get acknowledging david sternlight 's existence article netcom com strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes though think overstatement , contain grain truth 's drug dealers , spies , terrorists , organized crime figures \( assuming enough probable cause convince judge \) need watched , law abiding citizens okay , looks like going history lesson vietnam war , great many citizens opposed considered perfectly law abiding , although mr nixon thought otherwise federal government adding people otherwise decent , law abiding upstanding , disagree us nice little list think could never happen \? note speculating government could , discussing sort observation including limited phone tapping government put citizens time national tension naivete still appalling , btw mean , read posted differentiate good people bad people \? answer priori , ca n't assume , way assume \? assume priori citizen law abiding , rather potential \? one things 's supposedly great america freedoms enjoyed citizens presumed law abiding proven otherwise mike schmelzer , mjs genetics wisc edu , \( 608 \) 262 finger pgp people n't riot minute saw film waited justice never came ice
pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) subject overreacting \( tapped , code good \) article rwing 2109 distribution na organization totally unorganized lines 99 article bu edu uni acs bu edu \( shaen bernhardt \) writes article 1993apr22 134214 18517 rick dgbt doc ca jhan debra dgbt doc ca \( jerry han \) writes giant bally ho clipper chip noticed rather disturbing trend e mail posts 've tossing back forth deleted circut court judge illinois said dealing government seeks continually new creative ways spy its' citizenry , one cannot discourage move empower common citizen means parry attack personal privacy \( unfortunately comment regard banning radar detectors \) point remains see government slowly washing away privacy even unwittingly think ever live soceity issues smart cards citizens birth \? think live soceity insists register crypto keys keep track i'm saying \? even evidence guilt \? think ever live soceity seeks meddle affairs its' citizenry without recourse kind \? i'm tired \( imho \) compromise administration seeks implement proposals guise enhancing privacy proposals , read language press releases , obvious deception involved presenting pieces public , sickened revolted repulsed 90 , perhaps even 95 country could care less clipper chip , wiretap bill , smart card , rhetoric clinton administration problem , people scope , pointed hell , n't even heard clipper , , soothing language telling everyone nice government privacy come media telling provisions clipper decision \? provisions crime bill \? abuses civil forfeiture \? government uses polls support 75 percent people want gun bans , etc , yet pollsters determined \( according media \) 30 percent people unaware holocaust people cannot expected give decent decisions denied information abuses away rights going quietly find \( hits \) , late one cannot expect citizen spend time probing , searching , researching , etc example , big percentage average population even access usenet \? way less 1 percent , bet many outside internet usenet even aware big brother , exposed arguments sides issue \? public get one side government 's side scary frightens conserveative believe law order conserveative move centralized regime really scares , mostly know cant go far wrong intelligence american people tell 's going keep safe drug dealers terrorists , let put cameras home bulk people informed , media refuses \? even wake waco , find support increasingly moves somebody said something like armed violence meant used response armed attack meant used agression difference self defence murder quite honest , way things going , 'd call self defense let 's try avoid killing things , eh \? 's enough blood shed world , without adding couple riots , civil wars , etc i'm probably overreacting 've read scared lot n't want children growing war zone dont want mine eyes security camera 24 hours day people large need informed \? one person try talk everyone listen , hardly make kind dent pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc 1 207 \( pat myrto \) seattle , wa else fails , try ! uunet ! pilchuck ! rwing ! pat wisdom two things infinite universe human stupidity , sure former albert einstien
greg eng sun com \( greg \) subject let 's build software cryptophones internet organization sun microsystems computer corporation , mtn view , california lines 229 distribution usa nntp posting host cheers demon co uk graham toal gtoal gtoal com writes article gap caltech edu hal cco caltech edu \( hal finney \) writes tried code yesterday sparcstation elc takes 300 seconds compress 22 seconds' worth speech means needs optimized factor 10 usable even half duplex mode ouch ! thanks trying following program quick hack created months ago determine whether sun sparcstation ipc could perform real time , full duplex encrypted audio resulting data rates sustainable today 's modems test program reads linearly encoded audio audio device , compresses gsm 06 10 \( compresses frames 160 13 bit samples recorded 260 bits resulting 50 hz frame rate \) , encrypts des , process sends reconstructed audio back audio device compressed , encrypted audio stream 13 \( ! \) sparcstation ipc \( exactly fast machine days , certainly slower elc \) would barely sustain activity \( audio would speech \) ran real time process get best results remember , though , program quick hack performance certainly improved audio compression routines ftp 'd tub cs tu berlin de , believe \( look gsm toast \) used eric young 's des implementation longer know got cheers ! greg cut test program see much cpu takes secure digital audio written g \( greg cheers com \) written sun ipc running solaris 2 2 sun isdn bus card include stdlib h include h include h include stdio h include sys types h include sys h include h include gsm h include des h boolean svs audio init \( int fd , audio info prev info \) audio info info \( prev info ! null \) \( ioctl \( fd , audio , prev info \) 0 \) perror \( audio \) return \( b false \) audio \( info \) info record pause b true info play pause b true info play sample rate 8000 info play encoding audio encoding linear info play channels 1 info play precision 16 info record sample rate 8000 info record encoding audio encoding linear info record channels 1 info record precision 16 info record buffer size 320 4 \( ioctl \( fd , audio , info \) 0 \) perror \( audio \) return \( b false \) \( ioctl \( fd , flush , \) 0 \) perror \( flush \) return \( b false \) audio \( info \) info record pause b false info play pause b false \( ioctl \( fd , audio , info \) 0 \) perror \( audio \) return \( b false \) return \( b true \) boolean svs \( int ifd , gsm handle , gsm byte buf \) gsm signal sample 160 \( read \( ifd , sample , sizeof \( sample \) \) ! sizeof \( sample \) \) fprintf \( stderr , svs short read n \) return \( b false \) gsm encode \( handle , sample , buf \) return \( b true \) boolean svs \( int , gsm handle , gsm byte buf \) gsm signal sample 160 \( gsm decode \( handle , buf , sample \) 0 \) fprintf \( stderr , svs gsm decode failed n \) return \( b false \) \( write \( , sample , sizeof \( sample \) \) ! sizeof \( sample \) \) fprintf \( stderr , svs short write n \) return \( b false \) return \( b true \) main \( \) gsm handle gsm frame frame int audiofd int option des key , ivec , ivec des key schedule ks , ks des cbuf 4 , cbuf 4 , cbuf buf 4 audiofd open \( dev audio , \) \( audiofd 0 \) perror \( open \) exit \( 4 \) initialize gsm compression code \( \( handle gsm create \( \) \) null \) fprintf \( stderr , svs gsm create failed n \) exit \( 4 \) option b true \( gsm option \( handle , gsm opt fast , option \) 0 \) fprintf \( stderr , svs gsm option \( fast \) failed n \) exit \( 4 \) initialize des code des random key \( key \) \( des set key \( key , ks \) 0 \) fprintf \( stderr , svs des set key failed n \) exit \( 4 \) \( des set key \( key , ks \) 0 \) fprintf \( stderr , svs des set key failed n \) exit \( 4 \) memset \( ivec , 0 , sizeof \( ivec \) \) memset \( ivec , 0 , sizeof \( ivec \) \) open audio device configure \( ! svs audio init \( audiofd , null \) \) exit \( 3 \) \( \) get 160 samples \( 16 bit linear \) convert 33 byte frame \( ! svs \( audiofd , handle , frame \) \) exit \( 1 \) encrypt decrypt block des cbc encrypt \( frame , cbuf , \( long \) 32 , ks , ivec , des encrypt \) des cbc encrypt \( cbuf , cbuf buf , \( long \) 32 , ks , ivec , des decrypt \) \( frame , cbuf buf , 32 \) 0 \( \( cbuf , cbuf buf , 32 \) ! 0 \) fprintf \( stderr , svs failed n \) exit \( 4 \) endif take 33 byte frame convert 160 samples play \( ! svs \( audiofd , handle , frame \) \) exit \( 2 \) gsm destroy \( handle \) cut
graham toal gtoal gtoal com subject let 's build software cryptophones internet originator gtoal pizzabox demon co uk nntp posting host pizzabox demon co uk reply graham toal gtoal gtoal com organization cuddlehogs anonymous lines 19 article sol tis com mjr tis com \( marcus j ranum \) writes 'd really like see thing developed interactive internet talk radio could done ideally , though , general purpose device general purpose enough device nobody able balk widespread use obviously , make easy , use pretty common hardware suggest start ubiquitous sun , get lot momentum going custom hardware n't going go anywhere 's user base anyone interested \? 'll start provisional mailing list let know want count need someone us end experiment protocols , like way code give 3 weeks move house settle 'll go seriously g
dhesi rahul net \( rahul dhesi \) subject overreacting \( tapped , code good \) nntp posting host bolero organization a2i network distribution na lines 20 2109 rwing uucp pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) writes come media telling provisions clipper decision \? bulk people informed , media refuses \? answer second question lies way phrased first one 'the media ' n't media means one medium ' thousands publications say , say bulk people informed , wo n't read informative publications \? rahul dhesi dhesi rahul net also dhesi cirrus com
tenney netcom com \( glenn tenney \) subject hearing 29 april 1993 organization netcom online communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 105 received fax letter representative markey \( subcommittee telecommunications finance \) ron brown \( secretary commerce \) since encryption clipper chip raised letter , felt would interest understand 29 april , mr markey holding hearing questions raised letter may also follow hearing dedicated clipper chip , 's definite 've typed letter , follows errors transcription mine glenn tenney tenney netcom com amateur radio voice \( 415 \) 574 3420 fax \( 415 \) 574 0546 letter interest follows april 19 , 1993 honorable ronald h brown secretary department commerce 14th pennsylvania ave , nw washington , dc dear secretary brown know , long interested privacy security telecommunications transmissions data networked environment recent reports concerning administration 's endorsement electronic encryption standard , based upon clipper chip technology , raised number related issues international competitiveness u high tech manufacturers software industry key factor government consider addressing issues encryption data security nation moves forward developing national communications information infrastructure , security telecommunications transmissions network data increasingly important factor protecting privacy users hacker community compromise integrity telecommunications transmissions databases linked network people businesses use nation 's telecommunications network personal computers linked increasingly demanding information protected unauthorized access , alteration , theft concerned administration 's plan may mean remain competitive internationally , u companies would compelled develop two products one u government customers , another private , commercial users may want higher encryption standard may inadvertently increase costs u companies hoping serve markets assist subcommittee 's analysis issue , please respond following questions 1 encryption algorithm standard endorsed administration tested entity nsa , nist vendor \? , please identify entities nature testing performed , please describe plans algorithm tested outside experts experts chosen 2 administration 's plan , entities holders keys decrypt scrambled data \? procedures criteria administration utilize designate key holders \? 3 encryption algorithm endorsed administration contain trap door back door , could allow agency entity federal government crack code \? 4 clear time , changes technologies used communications require new techniques additional equipment encryption devices adapt rapid advancement telecommunications technology \? 5 additional costs would proposed encryption place federal government \? estimated cost consumers businesses opt federal standard equipment \? 6 commerce department 's assessment competitive impact administration 's endorsement clipper chip technology u exports computer telecommunications hardware software products \? would appreciate response later close business , wednesday , april 28 , 1993 questions , please staff contact colin crowell karen subcommittee staff \( 202 \) 226 sincerely , edward j markey chairman glenn tenney voice \( 415 \) 574 3420 fax \( 415 \) 574 0546 tenney netcom com ham radio
matt consent uucp \( matthew \) subject implementing diffie hellman key exchange keywords diffie hellman encryption des organization unix box , else \? x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 reply matt consent uucp uts edu au lines 21 want add link encryption module upper level routines single data link upper levels wo n't know , thus key exchange shall need occur \( initial link establishment \) figure des diffie hellman key exchange using diffie hellman exchange establish 64 bit des key acceptable , words , pro 's con 's setup \? important issues watch \( aside filtering unacceptable keys \) \? order achieve , guess need use math routines \( probable prime number calculation , etc \) , could someone point towards good package \( strictly non commercial \) matthew matt consent uts edu au 'the power one man seems like small '
holland cs colostate edu \( douglas craig holland \) subject let 's build software cryptophones internet nntp posting host beethoven cs colostate edu organization colorado state university , computer science department lines 25 article demon co uk graham toal gtoal gtoal com writes article sol tis com mjr tis com \( marcus j ranum \) writes 'd really like see thing developed interactive internet talk radio could done ideally , though , general purpose device general purpose enough device nobody able balk widespread use obviously , make easy , use pretty common hardware suggest start ubiquitous sun , get lot momentum going custom hardware n't going go anywhere 's user base n't move even toward masses setting ibm pc clone \( probably needs 386 486 \) sound blaster v 32bis modem components widely available n't know pc enough horsepower encrypt data realtime , sound blaster 4 1 hardware compression work sampling rate 4khz 23 khz doug holland doug holland anyone tries take away freedom holland cs colostate edu speech pry pgp key available e mail cold , dead lips ! !
theodore p lee tis com subject hearing 29 april 1993 x xxmessage id 52 mr net x xxdate sun , 25 apr 93 05 02 21 gmt organization trusted information systems , inc x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d20 lines 22 article netcom com glenn tenney , tenney netcom com writes interest understand 29 april , mr markey holding hearing questions raised letter may also follow hearing dedicated clipper chip , 's definite glenn , thanks posting surprised notice , however , one question might expected asked forms strong encryption clipper made illegal \? speaking , anyone aware whether question asked knowledgeable official spokesperson government \? yet seen mentioned dozen places might reported , could easily missed ted lee trusted information system , inc tis com po box 1718 , mn
reply jhupp shockwave win net \( jeff hupp \) jhupp shockwave win net \( jeff hupp \) subject new encryption algorithm lines 23 well , actually , one 's easy 's job nsa supposed develop cryptosystems government chooses go ahead sell cryptosystems masses , ah , developing cryptosystems specificially designed protect government 's domestic spying capabilities takes beyond mandate , forbidden field domestic wiretapping nsa 's charter forbids purely domestic intelligence work , would think even providing assistance development skipjack violation charter government agency , think jeff hupp internet jhupp shockwave win net 9797 medowglen , apt 1807 ad contract programming , novell houston , texas 77042 network design support voice \( 713 \) 780 9419 best govenment n't
wcs anchor ho att com \( bill stewart 1 908 949 0705 \) subject new encryption algorithm organization electronic society reply jim rand org 's message 25 apr 93 21 59 33 gmt 5v5 chinet chi il us rand org nntp posting host rainier ho att com lines 22 article rand org jim rand org \( jim gillogly \) writes 're mistaken nsa 's communications intelligence mission strictly foreign governments 's excerpt enabling charter \( 24 oct 52 , truman \) clarify charter declassified feb 1990 foia request made public interesting ! get whole thing \? nsa standard setting business , though 's clipper stuff came nist , believe coming standards based best inputs government agencies , would include nsa several newspaper reports made fairly clear nsa real work ca n't believe everything read papers \) , package information nist faxing little information beyond 's widely known sounds like 's true pray peace bill bill stewart 1 908 949 0705 wcs anchor att com bell labs 4m312 holmdel nj , i'm new jersey , work cyberspace white house commect line 1 202 456 1111 fax 1 202 456 2461
microsoft com \( gideon yuval \) subject clipper considered harmful organization microsoft corporation lines 21 article pizzabox demon co uk gtoal gtoal com \( graham toal \) writes dorothy denning read group \? , someone group forwarding questions like , martin hellman , anyone else 's seen details chip \? course 's 's often nsa 's keeping head always mail directly denning guvax acc georgetown edu , denning cs cosc georgetown edu denning cs georgetown edu g found personal attacks prof denning pretty disgusting n't agree positions think scholars disagree without argument getting gutter personal attacks stopped prof denning replying issues substance , cause real harm serious debate gideon yuval , microsoft com , 206 882 \( fax 883 \)
mnemonic eff org \( mike godwin \) subject dorothy denning opposes clipper , capstone wiretap chips originator mnemonic eff org nntp posting host eff org organization electronic frontier foundation lines 17 article c614bj bk6 agora rain com jhart agora rain com \( jim hart \) writes security system depend secrecy keys secrecy algorithms dorothy denning cite source , please mike mike godwin , ariel rose godwin mnemonic eff org born 4 15 93 4 34 pm cambridge \( 617 \) 576 7 pounds , 1 5 ounces , 19 75 inches long eff , cambridge new citizen electronic frontier
mg elan \( michael golan \) subject clipper scope overreacting originator news nimaster nntp posting host elan princeton edu organization princeton university distribution na lines 51 pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) writes problem , people scope , pointed hell , n't even heard clipper , , soothing language telling everyone nice government privacy much deleted people large need informed \? one person try talk everyone listen , hardly make kind dent ! lets write document includes reasons oppose clipper , clear , concise , non manner urge everyone take \( simple \) start repost changes let text evolve reach something us like , send copy \( personnel letter \) congress critter , local reporter sci tech , etc please , make success , try post agreed version , flames respond flame , please change subject , e g , clipper scope discussion michael golan mg cs princeton edu points made paragraphs wrong clipper chip usenet users 1 \) secret 2 \) trust escrow agencies \? 3 \) cost effective 4 \) want encryption systems , government seems want disallow future 5 \) anyone build non key system 6 \) worried back door 7 \) everyone uses clipper chip , mechanism big brother government place , change government lead especially since escrow agencies operation governed law \( president change rules allow free access keys time , e g , war \) 8 \) criminals caught wiretaps , cost risks unjustified 9 \) fbi get hold key , decrypt past future conversations
subject going \? odie santarosa edu \( scott \) distribution inet nntp posting host odie santarosa edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 49 paul repacholi \( zrepachol cc curtin edu au \) wrote ps first posting saw thought joke bad taste person broke news 's worth clipper chip announcement \( clipper csrc ncsl nist gov \) wrote note file also available via anonymous file transfer csrc ncsl nist gov directory pub nistnews via nist computer security bbs 301 948 5717 white house n't able open ftp session machine operating assumption address wrong , tried using whois ls nist gov nsf net host domain name internet address ncsl server mail gw ncsl nist gov mail gw ncsl 129 6 48 199 ncsl server dove nist gov ncsl server ecf ncsl nist gov ecf ncsl 129 6 48 2 ncsl server enh nist gov ncsl server ncsl nist gov ncsl 129 6 48 12 's could find ncsl domain oh , tried mx lookup machine question , failed whois domain registries failed , thought , hey , i'm using tools right tried calling bbs number answer i'm probably something wrong , perhaps , machine put behind firewall look like csrc ncsl nist gov become un machine someone would try , knows 's , 'd really appreciate info scott odie santarosa edu
reply jhupp shockwave win net \( jeff hupp \) jhupp shockwave win net \( jeff hupp \) subject clipper conference calls lines 20 article netnews upenn edu , feeley cattell psych upenn edu \( wm michael feeley \) writes curious , would clipper chip system handle conference calls \? 's clipper , 's encryption system 've seen number designs generally involve multi line cleartext bridge line cleartext bridge \? would put bridge \? n't one location , forget encryption blown security thought might jeff hupp internet jhupp shockwave win net 9797 medowglen , apt 1807 ad contract programming , novell houston , texas 77042 network design support voice \( 713 \) 780 9419 best govenment n't
borut b lavrencic ijs si subject key registering bodies reply borut b lavrencic ijs si organization j stefan institute , lj , slovenia lines 24 article 327 demon co uk , graham toal gtoal gtoal com writes article 7hl netcom com nagle netcom com \( john nagle \) writes since law requires wiretaps requested executive branch approved judicial branch , seems clear one key registering bodies control judicial branch suggest supreme court , , regionally , courts appeal specifically , offices clerks 've got better idea give one set kgb c washington embassy , set red chinese imho , one place satellites \( space \) recovery done \( highly visible \) teams astronauts borut b lavrencic , sc x 400 c si mail p ac ijs lavrencic j stefan institute internet borut b lavrencic ijs si university ljubljana , phone 386 1 159 199 si ljubljana , slovenia pgp public key available request
rja14 cl cam ac uk \( ross anderson \) subject tempest nntp posting host ely cl cam ac uk organization u cambridge computer lab , uk distribution na lines 37 whughes lonestar utsa edu \( william w hughes \) writes hell , set spark jammer , electrically noisy device n't work , due near field far field effect may stop someone five yards away listening , someone fifty yards away relatively unaffected unless pump hundreds watts jam neighbourhood tv 's well case government ask radio ham ! democratic governments care even right watch soap national security , dictators consider propaganda integral part national security holland cs colostate edu \( doug holland \) writes another idea use laptop computer mentioned earlier , lcd screen lot less noisy standard crt , since many laptops power supplies run 3 volts instead 5 , would considerably quieter i'm afraid n't work either pick laptop screens without problem called `low radiation' monitors also useless description turns marketing assertion rather engineering one thought might market monitor expensive military tempest kit , well enough shielded stop eavesdropping using available receivers built prototype , works , 's still sitting lab bench commercial interest exactly zero absence open standards , monitor really `low radiation' \( costs 500 dollars \) ca n't compete monitor claims `low radiation' \( whose extra cost production pretty blue sticker box \) ross
rja14 cl cam ac uk \( ross anderson \) subject new encryption algorithm keywords nea nntp posting host ely cl cam ac uk organization u cambridge computer lab , uk lines 24 article 5v5 chinet chi il us , schneier chinet chi il us \( bruce schneier \) writes unlike cia , nsa prohibition domestic spying read bamford 's puzzle palace senior nsa scientist cambridge one workshops recently \( fact clipper announcement made , n't learn till 'd gone \) said point forbidden law monitor conversations us nationals \( chap precise choice words \) n't expect 'd qualms monitoring domestic us conversation one parties alien however got thinking navajo code imagine , iraqi mission new york \? iraqi foreign ministry baghdad , hussein , us citizen , social security number , indeed , new york mission , mustafa speaking , also us citizen , social security number , report activities satan ross
jebright magnus acs ohio state edu \( james r ebright \) subject tempest nntp posting host bottom magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university distribution na lines 13 article 1993apr26 104320 10398 infodev cam ac uk rja14 cl cam ac uk \( ross anderson \) writes whughes lonestar utsa edu \( william w hughes \) writes ideas claimed work deleted putting system inside faraday cage \? even could build one jim information farming addr phone finger ohio state university jebright magnus acs ohio state edu \( \( 0 0 \) \) jim ebright e mail jre osu edu support privacy support encryption \( \)
borut b lavrencic ijs si subject wiretapping reality today reply borut b lavrencic ijs si distribution world organization j stefan institute , lj , slovenia lines 26 article mbeckman mbeckman com , mbeckman mbeckman mbeckman com \( mel beckman \) writes unfortunately , hoover thought constitution , whatever considered limits others obey ruthlessly invaded privacy many private public citizens mel 1967 , grad student uw seattle chance read hoover 's book masters deceit , quote sentence \( memory \) beware fellow americans , communist may look ordinary person went mirror true borut b lavrencic , sc x 400 c si mail p ac ijs lavrencic j stefan institute internet borut b lavrencic ijs si university ljubljana , phone 386 1 159 199 si ljubljana , slovenia pgp public key available request
elee9sf menudo menudo uh edu \( karl barrus \) subject wiretapping reality today organization university houston lines 27 1993apr22 news clarkson edu netcom com netcom com nntp posting host menudo uh edu reply strnlght netcom com 's message thu , 22 apr 1993 20 48 36 gmt david sternlight writes little perspective might order cannot believe make claims given hard evidence abuse ignore stories martin luther king , blocked mind mccarthy 's crusade 50 's \? number court ordered wire taps pretty low many illegal wiretaps performed \? funny , 'll fbi n't keep statistics ! confidential illegal wiretap karl l barrus elee9sf menudo uh edu preferred address barrus tree egr uh edu \( nextmail \) karl l barrus elee9sf menudo uh edu preferred address barrus tree egr uh edu \( nextmail \)
smb research att com \( steven bellovin \) subject new encryption algorithm organization bell laboratories lines 24 article 41 shockwave win net , jhupp shockwave win net \( jeff hupp \) writes nsa 's charter forbids purely domestic intelligence work , would think even providing assistance development skipjack violation charter government agency , think laws directives bear upon subject example , national computer security act 1987 specifically nbs sic work nsa developing security standards civilian federal computers \( pick bill cpsr org also includes report describing , legislative history , including concerns nsa 's involvement \) note also nsa specifically charged running national computer security center , quote aforementioned report also work industries dod computer security center develop security standards private sector use '' may may good idea nsa , i'm pretty sure 's legal \( btw comes development cryptosystems , may two choices either nsa helped develop , case maybe crack , maybe , probably , one else nsa n't help , case probably crack , maybe others well \)
spp zabriskie berkeley edu \( steve pope \) subject going \? organization u c berkeley erl lines 10 distribution inet nntp posting host zion berkeley edu odie santarosa edu \( scott \) writes look like csrc ncsl nist gov become un machine someone would try , knows 's , 'd really appreciate info csrc ncsl nist gov \( 129 6 54 11 \) ftp able steve
koontzd phobos lrmsc loral com \( david koontz \) subject clipper considered harmful restated amplified organization loral rolm computer systems lines 11 clipper also allows extraordinary opportunity criminal conceal use super encryption automated full system surveillance mechanism \( quite feasible across radio bandwidth \) knows family key f , validate clipper wrappers n esn associations , cannot reveal realtime use super encryption , unless knows unit keys , assured made available two separate pieces , upon specific wiretap like order serial number 64 bit block , 34 bit filler n't take lot check see correct
steve b access digex com \( steve brinich \) subject tempest organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 6 distribution na nntp posting host access digex net low radiation claims one sees monitors days pertain allegedly harmful electromagnetic emissions , necessarily anything tempest security \( think alleged hazard bs , 's another topic \)
ad cat de \( axel dunkel \) subject sensible des towards bit errors \? organization c system lines 14 hello , sensible des encrypted data towards bit errors \? much data per bit lost average \( assume still correct key \) \? thanx hints , axel experience get n't get want axel dunkel , strasse 41 , , germany e mail ad cat de , voice 49 6192 , fax 49 6192
zrepachol cc curtin edu au \( paul repacholi \) subject seen lobby , us lines 12 organization curtin university technology distribution inet article transfer stratus com , cme ellisun sw stratus com \( carl ellison \) writes n't know , nearly forgotten generate paper mail e mail congress , would written many letters n't written one yet , turns writing paper complicated job , us hooked way cool internet ask postmaster e mail address printer \) paul
dougb comm mot com \( doug bank \) subject clipper good enough government \? reply dougb ecs comm mot com organization motorola land mobile products sector nntp posting host 145 1 146 35 lines 26 article rdippold qualcom , rdippold qualcomm com \( ron asbestos dippold \) writes 's discussion recently whether government might exempt something use screw us well , comp dcom telecom attmail com subject odds 'n ends news clipper chip device introduced yesterday may suitable government use , says house telecom subcommittee chairman markey letter commerce secretary brown , markey asked whether use technology could lead inadvertently increased costs u companies hoping serve government private markets markey ordered brown answer several questions security cost concerns april 28 \( communications daily , 4 20 93 \) stupid wo n't cost companies hoping serve gov't private markets use technology \? doug bank private systems division dougb ecs comm mot com motorola communications sector dougb nwu edu schaumburg , illinois dougb casbah acns nwu edu 708 576 8207
dougb comm mot com \( doug bank \) subject encryption chip availibility reply dougb ecs comm mot com organization motorola land mobile products sector distribution usa nntp posting host 145 1 146 35 lines 21 article 93113 cmuvm bitnet , 34aej7d cmuvm bitnet writes article andrew cmu edu , stephen j andrew cmu edu says hi everybody ! anyone know companies currently manufacturing encryption chips sale general public \? get ! pointers would greatly appreciated motorola certainly makes , n't know would go buying one 'd probably buy one secure radios could also bring encryption chips outside country doug bank private systems division dougb ecs comm mot com motorola communications sector dougb nwu edu schaumburg , illinois dougb casbah acns nwu edu 708 576 8207
mlm mt cs cmu edu \( michael \) subject dorothy denning opposes clipper , capstone wiretap chips nntp posting host mt cs cmu edu reply mlm nl cs cmu edu organization school computer science , carnegie mellon lines 16 article 1993apr26 eff org mnemonic eff org \( mike godwin \) writes article c614bj bk6 agora rain com jhart agora rain com \( jim hart \) writes security system depend secrecy keys secrecy algorithms dorothy denning cite source , please dorothy denning , cryptography data security , 1982 , addison wesley page 8 , heading cryptosystems must satisfy three general requirements two efficiency ease use michael l carnegie mellon university
tarnold vnet ibm com \( todd w arnold \) subject sensible des towards bit errors \? organization ibm cryptographic facility development disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , ibm news software ureply 3 1 lines 15 ad cat axel dunkel writes sensible des encrypted data towards bit errors \? much data per bit lost average \( assume still correct key \) \? depends mode 're using single 64 bit input block , one bit error 50 percent chance corrupting 64 output bits words , essentially turns output block random number 're encrypting data cbc mode , however , one 64 bit block affected next block , follow decrypted properly 's good idea kind error correction system corrupted bits likely todd
neosoft com \( george \) subject illegal transmit encrypted data \? organization neosoft communications services \( 713 \) 684 5900 keywords encryption munitions act lines 11 aware restrictions imposed munitions act export cryptographic technology , however , illegal transmit encrypted data u another country \? , laws apply situation \? neosoft com george visualize ! net 's worth \( 713 \) 994
eachus spectre mitre org \( robert eachus \) subject keeping mouth shut \( hard drive security \) reply smk5 quads uchicago edu 's message wed , 21 apr 1993 02 33 19 gmt nntp posting host spectre mitre org organization mitre corp , bedford , 1993apr13 magnus acs ohio state edu 1993apr14 qualcomm com 1993apr21 midway uchicago edu lines 29 article 1993apr21 midway uchicago edu smk5 quads uchicago edu \( steve kramarsky \) writes ok , read thread posting 0 02 would add phil 's discussion following caveat fifth amendment applies cases \( shall person compelled criminal case witness \) maybe using wrong amendment someone seize safe containing \( paper \) records , demand produce combination , applicable defense would grounds unreasonable search seizure police would entitled subpoena documents relating specific matter , broad search implied records would unconstitutional case safe , would probably get assert examined documents covered warrent \( sure ! \) cryptographic case , resort would rubber hose cryptography \( would also make good mental experiment use choosing escrow agents would trust proposed agent key hard disk \? half key matter \) robert eachus standard disclaimer use standard disclaimer function message \( text clever ideas \) return better ideas
golem mit edu \( patrick j \) subject s1 , s2 organization massachvsetts institvte technology lines 32 nntp posting host golem mit edu reply steve b access digex com 's message 22 apr 1993 07 52 46 0400 article 102 access digex net , steve b access digex com \( steve brinich \) writes second question ! \? ! \? strange procedure used , real rng \? turns s1 , s2 kind bottleneck system security theory makes sense s1 s2 either chips , vary among possibilities , anyone trying break encryption brute force need plow possible serial numbers \( 2 30 , one billion \) , multiplied number different s1 , s2 combinations suppose instead s1 s2 reconstructed given 3 4 unit keys generated single batch \( sort known plaintext attack , say \) suppose 3 4 chips programmed session never find way commercial products , instead end elsewhere suppose folks elsewhere determine unit key , given physical access one chips folks determine s1 s2 whole batch many \? yeah , probably pat
jbs watson ibm com subject clipper chip lines 6 realistic government try keep details encrytion algorithm secret intends use evidence wiretaps court \? wo n't defense attorneys attempt obtain details method prosecution attempts present evidence wiretaps court \? certain attempts fail \? james b
ee92jks brunel ac uk \( jonathan k saville \) subject pgp get \? organization brunel university , uxbridge , uk x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 22 jeff hupp \( jhupp shockwave win net \) wrote things heard pgp encryption program anybody know might get version program runs windows 3 1 , ms dos , unix w source \? writting unix access running nifty windows moment pgp available executable format ms dos mac , source code platforms including unix many ftp sites keep copy \( although mac version getting hard find \) try following site soda berkeley edu pub cypherpunks pgp jon jon saville alive say , art ee92jks brunel ac uk poet , may tell thy dreams \? ' , pgp 2 2 public key available upon request finger
dougb comm mot com \( doug bank \) subject clipper conference calls reply dougb ecs comm mot com organization motorola land mobile products sector nntp posting host 145 1 146 35 lines 25 curious , would clipper chip system handle conference calls \? depending encryption system , long everyone key , done example , using vat , internet audio tool , conference call , encrypting session \( unfortunately , one site work , n't cpu , n't sound good different site \) would use something black box words , n't think public key would work session key would agreed upon prior conversation distributed sites beforehand go get stu iii \) doug bank private systems division dougb ecs comm mot com motorola communications sector dougb nwu edu schaumburg , illinois dougb casbah acns nwu edu 708 576 8207 opinions reflect motorola thinking way , shape , form
pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) subject hearing 29 april 1993 organization totally unorganized lines 143 article news mr net tis com \( theodore p lee \) writes article netcom com glenn tenney , tenney netcom com writes interest understand 29 april , mr markey holding hearing questions raised letter may also follow hearing dedicated clipper chip , 's definite glenn , thanks posting surprised notice , however , one question might expected asked forms strong encryption clipper made illegal \? speaking , anyone aware whether question asked knowledgeable official spokesperson government \? yet seen mentioned dozen places might reported , could easily missed please let us know get solid answer question legality strong cryptosystems far references seen weasel words \( plans future , etc \) , nothing could taken \( strong crypto outlawed \) heard \( verified \) crime bill congress language either requires escrow keys , regard systems public use , like strong cryptosystems trivially broken govt , without escrowed keys one cannot readily change \( read use permitted folks 'special' connections , government agencies \) either 'terrorist tools' dealers tools' outlawed specifically added civil forfeiture powers , clever wording , effectively outlawed intents purposes , idle speculation n't care , hit 'n' crypto effectively outlawed could done without specifically outlawing class crypto systems example , , hammers , screwdrivers , regarded tools' pretty much whim authorities , based primarily individual possessing car , etc trade makes routine use tools like manner , one 'legitimate \( gov't definition \) strong crypto software systems , caught using , might find possession 'terrorist tools' words , one working corporation extremely sensitive commercial data warrants \( fed 's opinion \) strong security , government agency , securing work related data , personal data , one likely nailed personal desire certainly regarded 'legitimate want strong security , especially 'legitimate law \? individual endeavors would concerned government business revealing personal secrets public must trying conceal planning conceal unlawful criminal activity something hide , hmmmm \? expect initially people selected either random , happen purposes think feds serious \( mega ' \( 's \) one asking 'right' privacy probably get response constitutional right privacy spelled \( argument used abortion debate \) right security 'legitimate law enforcement cannot \( suggested clipper press release \) , nutshell , find extremely frightening crypto systems , case , precident set , laying groundwork future privacy \( escrow safe deposit box keys keys combinations privately owned , \? \) cannot think better way make 'end around parts us constitution law cannot easily declared unconstitutional , specific law would simply minor extension rico statutes wod policies simple policy decision , like many gun regulations mainly batf policy decisions conversation fed agents would go something like gonna seize home , computers , car , bank account , \( n't give us yer clothes , unless floppy yer pocket \) connected acquisition , transport , use 'terrorist tools' dealers tools' part wod terrorism , ya decent american subject would noble causes note accusing wrong saying home , computers , car , bank assets connected wrong somehow housed , transported , funded 'terrorist tools' civil matter heh heh grin therefore , constitutional protection individual rights apply tainted property evil grin wish deposit bond , hire attorneys , go court prove innocence property \( 'terrorist tools' prove also dealers tools' \) , go ahead , problem ! 'course , bank assets seized , car , computer , home , \( probably job , \) less resources , might run minor practical difficulties grin going damned ballistic exactly logic goes someone gives home used store drugs note trace drugs need found property bozo say stored stuff dude 's house ' \( probably get 10 year sentence dealing \) much cost effective let walk , bust another day , hit assets ob disclaimer \( course \) ok , note lawyer , base speculations read heard told regarding past civil forfeiture cases , used augment budgets assorted agencies , get folks want left alone , wish put risky situation \( especially areas denied either meaningful police protection , means able even pretend defend , quite common back east , like nj , , nyc , wa dc , west ca \) people choice government boot , threats pissed drug dealing gang bangers helpless either case behind dude drops dime gain , behind feds wanting 'make civil forfeiture point , speculations way line , typical , , extension crypto anything feds regard seem reasonable \? \( guarantees , besides government promises \) \? none \? ted lee trusted information system , inc tis com po box 1718 , mn pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc 1 207 \( pat myrto \) seattle , wa else fails , try ! uunet ! pilchuck ! rwing ! pat wisdom two things infinite universe human stupidity , sure former albert einstien
wcs anchor ho att com \( bill stewart 1 908 949 0705 \) subject clipper considered harmful restated amplified organization electronic society reply koontzd phobos lrmsc loral com 's message mon , 26 apr 1993 14 59 37 gmt 1993apr26 3570 wdl loral com nntp posting host rainier ho att com lines 29 article 1993apr26 3570 wdl loral com koontzd phobos lrmsc loral com \( david koontz \) writes clipper also allows extraordinary opportunity criminal conceal use super encryption automated full system surveillance mechanism \( quite feasible across radio bandwidth \) knows family key f , validate clipper wrappers n esn associations , cannot reveal realtime use super encryption , unless knows unit keys , assured made available two separate pieces , upon specific wiretap like order serial number 64 bit block , 34 bit filler n't take lot check see correct depends whether filler constant \( makes checking easy , susceptible replay \) , variable \( e g timer , counter , random \) , makes replay harder also make easier inquisitors know 've missed messages , gotten sequence , interesting things sort person might care still easy conceal super encryption , least inquisitors get ahold k key , take , presumably near real time \( worst case , escrow agencies provide u key local cops , still gets one side conversation per warrant , unless key used directions , suppose capstone version chip probably insist \) pray peace bill bill stewart 1 908 949 0705 wcs anchor att com bell labs 4m312 holmdel nj , i'm new jersey , work cyberspace white house commect line 1 202 456 1111 fax 1 202 456 2461
wcs anchor ho att com \( bill stewart 1 908 949 0705 \) subject clipper conference calls organization electronic society reply jhupp shockwave win net 's message mon , 26 apr 1993 01 54 02 gmt 42 shockwave win net nntp posting host rainier ho att com lines 36 article 42 shockwave win net jhupp shockwave win net \( jeff hupp \) writes conference calls \? 's clipper , 's encryption system 've seen number designs generally involve multi line cleartext bridge line cleartext bridge \? would put bridge \? n't one location , forget encryption blown security thought might people using encrypted conference bridges days military \( equivalent , like cia embassy personnel \) , putting bridges recipient 's location normal 's vault military base ft meade , secure phones sound proof rooms big locks doors 're talking classified stuff \( golf generals \) paradigm change start using encrypted phones offices homes carry normal conversations dinner plans stock purchases meeting schedules technical info good batch illegal got last weekend bob people n't use sound proof , may use bridges local phone company \( 3 way calls \) long distance value added phone company \( e g alliance conference bridges \) mainly used radio portion cellular phones , conferencing aspects n't change may market niche trusted conference bridge providers , though suppose inquisitors would try get blanket wiretap authorization many bridges , case bad guy might use service pray peace bill bill stewart 1 908 949 0705 wcs anchor att com bell labs 4m312 holmdel nj , i'm new jersey , work cyberspace white house commect line 1 202 456 1111 fax 1 202 456 2461
angel foghorn leghorn coe northeastern edu \( kirill shklovsky \) subject tempest organization northeastern university distribution na lines 31 article 1993apr26 104320 10398 infodev cam ac uk rja14 cl cam ac uk \( ross anderson \) writes i'm afraid n't work either pick laptop screens without problem called `low radiation' monitors also useless description turns marketing assertion rather engineering one thought might market monitor expensive military tempest kit , well enough shielded stop eavesdropping using available receivers built prototype , works , 's still sitting lab bench commercial interest exactly zero absence open standards , monitor really `low radiation' \( costs 500 dollars \) ca n't compete monitor claims `low radiation' \( whose extra cost production pretty blue sticker box \) ross heard somewhere \( ca n't name source \) tempest necessarily pick crts , pick emissions almost chip true , kind monitor would make difference becuase everything screen picked video controller anybody verify refute \? angel foghorn leghorn coe northeastern edu btw opinions , entity god , full stars ! dave n't know , 've got company ! epidemic
mgr hep anl gov \( dr mike \) subject official secrets act \( usa \) news software vax vms vnews 1 3 4 reply mgr hep anl gov organization argonne national laboratory distribution world lines 39 sorry , news reader n't seem know copy subject header tracks thread people n't need strong crypto atomic energy act 1954 expressly forbids thinking building nuclear devices grad school , friend mine got security clearance work defense progressive magazine found lots articles public domain removed local engineering library \( madison wisconsin \) lawyers sent states libraries show information article already public pissed everyone local underground paper went published article anyway \( feds , 's \) judge declared case moot atomic energy act 1954 never tested court discussions several people familiar case , 2 times preemptive clause used every case people simply felt like courts tossed cases intents purposes , government declaring things classified published working star wars happened clearance works developed method tracking particle beams good enough classify , longer allowed work friend canada boat developed method compute stripping cross sections , subject classified allowed present paper conference ! later published open journal without problems going gets wierd , wierd turn pro feds whatever want whenever feel like , make rules let get away since mass media ca n't tell difference joke real thing \( like ranch waco massacre \) n't count help spread word loss freedom government make strong crypto illegal \? since government obey rules , \? patience , persistence , truth , reality imi hep anl gov dr mike home igc org
weaver sfc sony com \( eric weaver \) subject citations electronic cash papers please organization sony advanced video technology center san jose , ca usa lines 6 deeply grateful citations papers electronic cash schemes minds c eric weaver sony 677 river oaks , ms 35 sj ca 408 944 chief engineer , 89 7 college , los altos hills ca
baxter ped pto ford com \( gene baxter \) subject let 's build software cryptophones internet nntp posting host ped pto ford com organization ford motor co , electronics x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl7 lines 27 douglas craig holland \( holland cs colostate edu \) wrote article demon co uk graham toal gtoal gtoal com writes article sol tis com mjr tis com \( marcus j ranum \) writes 'd really like see thing developed interactive internet talk radio could done ideally , though , general purpose device general purpose enough device nobody able balk widespread use obviously , make easy , use pretty common hardware n't move even toward masses setting ibm pc clone \( probably needs 386 486 \) sound blaster v 32bis modem components widely concur pc pc version interactive thing like internet talk radio \? ! \? ! makes cringe amount hogging thing would bandwidth internet mean 15 meg files getting floated around internet talk radio bad enough solution use phone system take electronics use point point conversations phone thats need tell someone something secret important would n't make sense write \? 's quick yo use code word spend twenty cents good ol analog systems like , telephones , tv 's use n't nice digital packet network trying emulate ! baxter baxter
soc mil \( raymond brand \) subject clipper considered harmful organization lines 132 article 1993apr24 ulysses att com , smb research att com \( steven bellovin \) writes three issues clipper first whether architecture whole scheme capable working answer , one significant exception , yes really think nsa nist designed scheme well , assuming real objectives stated permit wiretapping , certain carefully controlled circumstances , minimum risk abuse \( exception u exists outside chip , programming diskette 's seriously wrong u 1 u 2 loaded onto chip separately \) disagree \( n't claim answer obvious , though found reasoning sufficiently persuasive forced rewrite conclusions section technical analysis paper originally blasted scheme \) , issue invitation assume charged implementing system , complete regard civil rights due process would differently \? answering question , please accept nsa 's fundamental assumptions strong cryptography outsiders , ability wiretap domestic users , necessary \( feel necessary challenge assumptions , context last issue present right , i'm discussing technical aspects , n't means claim something done , \) ok steve , 's sketch alternative believe addresses objections clipper scheme notation exclusive e \( , k \) message encrypted key k \( , k \) message decrypted key k h \( \) hash \( digest signature \) message important values u0 x local chip unit key escrow agency x u1 x remote chip unit key escrow agency x n 0 serial number local chip n 1 serial number remote chip number escrow agencies k 0 , k 1 session keys agreed upon external protocol f family key , need secret protocol choose k0 1 , k0 k 0 k0 1 k0 remote chip k 1 , k1 1 , , k1 compute following l0 1 e \( k0 1 , u0 1 \) l0 e \( k0 , u0 \) l 0 n 0 e \( n 0 l0 1 l0 , f \) remote chip l1 1 , , l1 , l 1 send l 0 remote chip receive l 1 remote chip compute ke 0 h \( k 0 n 0 l0 1 l0 k 1 \( l 1 , f \) kd 0 h \( k 1 \( l 1 , f \) k 0 n 0 l0 1 l0 note \( l 1 , f \) n 1 l1 1 l1 remote chip ke 1 kd 1 user data encrypted \( decrypted \) keys ke 0 , ke 1 \( kd 0 , kd 1 \) assumptions trap doors e \( \) , \( \) h \( \) h \( \) algorithms e \( \) , \( \) h \( \) secret otherwise software implementation \( bogus chip \) could communicate real chip chip supports following operation 1 \) return n 0 2 \) load k0 x 3 \) return e \( k0 x , u0 x \) 4 \) return e \( n 0 l0 1 l0 , f \) 5 \) given e \( n 1 l1 1 l1 , f \) , return n 1 , l1 1 , , l1 6 \) load k 1 7 \) given e \( n 1 l1 1 l1 , f \) , compute ke 0 , kd 0 8 \) given , return e \( , ke 0 \) 9 \) given , return \( , kd 0 \) anything programmed chip determined destroying chip \( u 1 , , u , f , n 0 \) u 1 , , u determined except destroying chip \( unfortunately may true reality suppose 's possible determine chip programmed sophisticated sp \? x ray machine look blown fuses \) u 's programmed independantly escrow agencies notes tapping escrow agency given n 0 , e \( k0 , u0 \) , n 1 , e \( k1 , u1 \) returns k0 , k1 lea 's must contact escrow agencies serial numbers chips encrypted partial keys allows agencies record chips tapped lea 's get session key , key conversations particular chip precludes real time decrypting conversation n't one stated requirements observation order secure tap able communication scheme work , active parts need share secret secret revealed , communications know secret made un tap able obvious candidates cryptographic algorithm master \( family \) key relative size complexity suggests key obtained silicon implementation scheme lot easier faster algorithm raymond brand soc mil
amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) subject tapped , code good organization intercon systems corporation herndon , va usa lines 23 distribution world reply amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) nntp posting host chaos intercon com x newsreader intercon tcp connect ii 1 1 article bu edu , uni acs bu edu \( shaen bernhardt \) writes think wo n't see using apple 's new signature finder feature \? n't released , 's way evaluate yet , apple could smart use md5 hash encrypted rsa , like pkcs signatures could even actually pkcs compliant , know wait released , hard information available , passing judgement \? 's algorithm 's n't secret apple 's fascistic remains secret \( except apple demos macworld \) \) , simply 's done yet may flawed , may however , ca n't tell actually see , least , quite impressed seen far , expectation disappointed amanda walker intercon systems corporation
karl genesis mcs com \( karl denninger \) subject government intentions regarding organization mcsnet , chicago , il lines 16 distribution inet nntp posting host localhost mcs com article communications week \( april 12 's issue \) states definitively justice department trying revive wiretapping bill , also trying find way force key registration clipper obvious thrust exactly direction dorothy quoted communications week , april 12th , page 8 read get folks act lose fundamental right privacy clinton shown us interest abortion , right citizens secure papers effects karl denninger \( karl genesis mcs com \) never please everyone except data line 1 312 248 0900 live internet chicago mcsnet first !
gardner convex com \( steve gardner \) subject hearing 29 april 1993 organization engineering , convex computer corp , richardson , tx , usa lines 44 nntp posting host imagine convex com x disclaimer message written user convex computer corp opinions expressed user necessarily convex article 2112 rwing uucp pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) writes personal desire certainly regarded 'legitimate want strong security , especially 'legitimate law \? individual endeavors would concerned government business revealing personal secrets public must trying conceal planning conceal unlawful criminal activity something hide , hmmmm \? underlined battle must fought battle hearts minds american public people must realize government fit father confessor government right share every thought moment decide share thought someone else distance order protect government bent undermining constitution must realize government enemy much soviet union ever hard people brought loyalty government cast patriotism expect initially people selected either random , happen purposes think feds serious \( mega ' \( 's \) must make sure let events go must willing fight government every step way going damned ballistic exactly logic goes someone gives home used store drugs note trace drugs need found property bozo say stored stuff dude 's house ' \( probably get 10 year sentence dealing \) much cost effective let walk , bust another day , hit assets time rolled back nonsense civil forfeiture effective end run around constitution ever enemy used soviets clearly government smg
com \( james davies \) subject clipper considered harmful restated amplified organization cray computer corporation lines 19 article 1993apr26 3570 wdl loral com koontzd phobos lrmsc loral com \( david koontz \) writes clipper also allows extraordinary opportunity criminal conceal use super encryption automated full system surveillance mechanism \( quite feasible across radio bandwidth \) knows family key f , validate clipper wrappers n esn associations , cannot reveal realtime use super encryption , unless knows unit keys , assured made available two separate pieces , upon specific wiretap like order serial number 64 bit block , 34 bit filler n't take lot check see correct yes , extra encryption could applied message encrypted clipper , wrapper would fine , phone 's serial number session key would law enforcement field , etc , message would n't readable even particular clipper 's key obtained escrow agents fact , n't even possible detect message double encrypted without court order , right \?
com \( james davies \) subject clipper considered harmful restated amplified organization cray computer corporation lines 15 article wcs rainier att com wcs anchor ho att com \( bill stewart 1 908 949 0705 \) writes still easy conceal super encryption , least inquisitors get ahold k key , take , presumably near real time \( worst case , escrow agencies provide u key local cops , still gets one side conversation per warrant , unless key used directions , suppose capstone version chip probably insist \) impression \( reading denning 's description clipper 's operation \) session key used directions encrypting message text , chip uses 's key encrypting session key law enforcement field , need know u key one phones involved decrypt messages directions
uni acs2 bu edu \( shaen bernhardt \) subject overreacting \( tapped , code good \) distribution na organization boston university , boston , , usa lines 42 article 1993apr23 rick dgbt doc ca jhan debra dgbt doc ca \( jerry han \) writes article bu edu uni acs bu edu \( shaen bernhardt \) writes text deleted quite honest , way things going , 'd call self defense never advocated saying believe i'm advocating second thought , calm smart warrior defeats enemy ambush battlefield smarter warrior defeats enemy open warfare battlefield warrior defeats enemy without using battlefield think , thesis sun point called good old , could make opponents lost contact front back lines , lose reliability large small groups , lose mutual concern welfare different social classes among , lose mutual accomodation rulers ruled , lose among soldiers , lose coherence within armies went action advantageous , stopped today sitting hands get nowhere battle jerry han crc doc div behavioural research jhan debra dgbt doc ca opinions , opinions proud frozen member mighty warriors band memories 've left behind , still ringing ears genesis uni acs bu edu uni acs bu edu public keys finger request public key archives pgp public keys pgp iastate edu sovereignty sign brutal past fight clinton 's wiretap chip ! df610670f2467b99 97de2b5c3749148c crypto crime ! ask !
fig citib com \( greg \) subject write clinton organization citibank lines 29 article transfer stratus com cme ellisun sw stratus com \( carl ellison \) writes 've reading sci crypt , alt privacy clipper comp org eff talk discussions clipper chip find \( usual \) us think alike 's lot messages sent clinton well net \( instead net \) , might actually effect 0005895485 mcimail com \( white house \) white house e mail address really working yet \? someone posted address compuserve months ago , apparently white house n't really set hundreds \( thousands \? \) messages day account n't want people use yet mci address something people white house actually read , another craig story \? n't know i'm asking unless people white house print distribute mail every day , may better luck printing letter \( paper , flat white stuff desk \) snail mailing white house imagine writing local representative senator would n't hurt either heck , write al gore 're \? greg greg citibank fig citib com
pmetzger snark shearson com \( perry e metzger \) subject shelf cheap des keyseach machine \( corporate organization partnership america free drug lines 32 jon jon ifi uio writes person know , belonging research lab rivate company , claimed conversation , given equipment lab , could crack kerberos ticket 15 minutes hour access rather powerful des hardware , kind , believe attack possible amount known plaintext ticket , constitutes small message two years ago n't believe , n't believe friend \? des known known plaintext attacks readily unless friend knows something keeping secret , , possible noted weakness implementation kerberos protocol instance , using weak rng generate keys might cut keyspace \( user keys kind 's name ca n't remember \) however , claimed claiming general weakness des , known exist open literature n't get wrong des weaker however , cracking 15 minutes requires money spent cracking machine organization know available perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire , laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
mjr tis com \( marcus j ranum \) subject write clinton organization trusted information systems , inc lines 32 distribution inet nntp posting host sol tis com 0005895485 mcimail com \( white house \) white house e mail address really working yet \? someone posted address compuserve months ago , apparently white house n't really set hundreds \( thousands \? \) real address understanding current process mail takes gets downloaded floppy disk processed volunteers , match message message profiles check message count \( e yeah , 's gays military 's clipper stuff \? must gays military \) higher volume white house email stuff works , know fact , wo n't online probably another month two understanding link speed increase \( direct internet instead compu erve floppy \) message processing remain unless people white house print distribute mail every day , may better luck printing letter \( paper , flat white stuff desk \) snail mailing white house imagine writing local representative senator would n't hurt either heck , write al gore 're \? white house email get read agree printing sending cc everyone think probably better visible , message processing \( fitting messages template \) either case mjr
wcs anchor ho att com \( bill stewart 1 908 949 0705 \) subject illegal transmit encrypted data \? organization mary ellen carter salvage crew reply neosoft com 's message mon , 26 apr 1993 16 03 43 gmt nntp posting host rainier ho att com lines 30 article sugar neosoft com neosoft com \( george \) writes aware restrictions imposed munitions act export cryptographic technology , however , illegal transmit encrypted data u another country \? , laws apply situation \? us law perspective , unless 're engaging illegal speech , 's illegal use encryption yet nsa allowed try listen , 're obligated make easy yet country may repressive laws gather france 's bureaucracy wants know 're saying , old soviet union , n't need laws make things illegal \( \( paranoia follows , want play safe \) fact nsa listening may affect willingness use wimpy crypto technologies , may also affect willingness use technologies violate rsa 's patents , e g use pgp , nsa may tell rsa 're , secret service catches , may decide mere fact rsa n't filed lawsuit n't mean n't deserve computer confiscated possible patent violation , munitions law violation , espionage , money , drug importation , disturbance , give back violate patent even though drop charges , unlike nasty steve jackson gall guilty anything pray peace bill bill stewart 1 908 949 0705 wcs anchor att com bell labs 4m312 holmdel nj , i'm new jersey , work cyberspace white house commect line 1 202 456 1111 fax 1 202 456 2461
wcs anchor ho att com \( bill stewart 1 908 949 0705 \) subject tempest organization mary ellen carter salvage crew distribution na reply angel foghorn leghorn coe northeastern edu 's message mon , 26 apr 1993 19 38 01 gmt 1993apr26 104320 10398 infodev cam ac uk 1993apr26 193801 12416 lynx dac northeastern edu nntp posting host rainier ho att com lines 31 article 1993apr26 193801 12416 lynx dac northeastern edu angel foghorn leghorn coe northeastern edu \( kirill shklovsky \) writes article 1993apr26 104320 10398 infodev cam ac uk rja14 cl cam ac uk \( ross anderson \) writes i'm afraid n't work either pick laptop screens without problem heard somewhere \( ca n't name source \) tempest necessarily pick crts , pick emissions almost chip true , kind monitor would make difference becuase everything screen picked video controller anybody verify refute \? yes , 's true tempest nothing magic , 's listening available electromagnetic emissions using analysis techniques know separate interesting stuff nice thing old crts used put lots signal , 're easy detect , sync carefully , watch output monitor marked chevy step van brands electric even worse cases , 's especially nice gets data user looking , rather whatever stuff paging algorithm paging disk , etc newer , quieter equipment , n't much signal , 's harder isolate fun parts tempest rated equipment much lower signal levels everything vibrations , master chuan said pray peace bill bill stewart 1 908 949 0705 wcs anchor att com bell labs 4m312 holmdel nj , i'm new jersey , work cyberspace white house commect line 1 202 456 1111 fax 1 202 456 2461
allen well sf ca us \( allen barrett ethridge \) subject dorothy denning opposes clipper , capstone wiretap chips nntp posting host well sf ca us organization whole earth 'lectronic link , sausalito , ca lines 9 1993apr26 eff org mnemonic eff org \( mike godwin \) writes article c614bj bk6 agora rain com jhart agora rain com \( jim hart \) writes security system depend secrecy keys secrecy algorithms dorothy denning cite source , please cryptography data security , page 8 , perhaps
uskmg emoryu1 cc emory edu \( ken \) subject amiga ripem \? reply uskmg unix cc emory edu organization emory university information technology division lines 9 nntp posting host cc emory edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 anyone ported ripem amiga yet anyone working \? emailed responses fine ken , emory university preferred uskmg unix cc emory edu information technology division uucp gatech ! emoryu1 ! uskmg atlanta , ga non domain bitnet uskmg emoryu1 phone \( 404 \) 727 fax \( 404 \) 727
holland cs colostate edu \( douglas craig holland \) subject tempest distribution na organization colorado state university , computer science department lines 40 nntp posting host beethoven cs colostate edu article 1993apr26 193801 12416 lynx dac northeastern edu angel foghorn leghorn coe northeastern edu \( kirill shklovsky \) writes article 1993apr26 104320 10398 infodev cam ac uk rja14 cl cam ac uk \( ross anderson \) writes i'm afraid n't work either pick laptop screens without problem called `low radiation' monitors also useless description turns marketing assertion rather engineering one thought might market monitor expensive military tempest kit , well enough shielded stop eavesdropping using available receivers built prototype , works , 's still sitting lab bench commercial interest exactly zero absence open standards , monitor really `low radiation' \( costs 500 dollars \) ca n't compete monitor claims `low radiation' \( whose extra cost production pretty blue sticker box \) ross heard somewhere \( ca n't name source \) tempest necessarily pick crts , pick emissions almost chip true , kind monitor would make difference becuase everything screen picked video controller anybody verify refute \? thought something yes , laptops still read , 's quite easy normal pc crt thought , airline pilots lately complaining laptops used flight mess plane 's instruments hyped , manufacturers may start building laptops even lower emmisions would probably still possible pick surveillance equipment , point , would lot cheaper mask remaining signals tempest techniques doug holland doug holland anyone tries take away freedom holland cs colostate edu speech pry pgp key available e mail cold , dead lips ! !
c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu \( john kelsey \) subject implementing diffie hellman key exchange nntp posting host mizzou1 missouri edu organization university missouri lines 18 probably use numbers much larger 64 bits also , may want include randomly generated protocol way , someone find shared key another person use one day , wo n't able guess next day ie sends g mod p random string r0 b sends g b mod p random string r1 find \( g mod p \) b mod p shared key , calculate session key hash \( r0 , shared key , r1 \) also , want make sure 're getting right public key value g mod p someone power intercept change messages spoof sending public key , acquiring session key john
strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) subject clipper considered harmful organization dsi uscrpac lines 16 article 1993apr25 microsoft com microsoft com \( gideon yuval \) writes personal attacks stopped prof denning replying issues substance , cause real harm serious debate david david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted
schneier chinet chi il us \( bruce schneier \) subject comments clipper publication organization chinet public access unix lines 15 writing article clipper network world looking comments opinions \( quote \) scheme , implications security privacy , acceptance overseas , etc hope article , opinions various quarters catch name company affiliation appear print tight deadline \( need finish wednesday night \) please call e mail responses thanks , bruce \( 708 \) 524
jongsma esseye si com \( ken jongsma \) subject rush read e mail \? reply jongsma si com organization smiths industries distribution inet lines 11 1993apr23 henson cc wwu edu henson cc wwu edu \( sean dean \) writes idea compuserve e mail address compuserve com ken jongsma smiths industries jongsma si com grand rapids , michigan 1041 compuserve com
marc tanda isis org \( marc thibault \) subject trojan horse clipper reply marc tanda isis org distribution world organization thibault friends lines 39 , seems step 1 taking warrant telco get wiretap much red herring \( n't love animal metaphors \) phone broadcasting serial number chip \( e \( n f \) different n \) , aim reciever general direction today 's target use serial number identify session want , get chip number end conversation even without key , great traffic analysis think several ways learn right serial number looks like one intended effect clipper eliminate awkward business getting telco cooperate \( risking getting caught act clips erect \) particularly handy s1 s2 btw , anyone explain scrambling serial number \? cheers , marc marc thibault marc tanda isis org automation architect cis 71441 , 2226 r r 1 , oxford mills , ontario , canada nc freenet aa185 begin pgp public key block mqbnaiqxytkaaaecalfehyp0yc80s1scfvjspj5escao hihtnefrrn vuecsavh aauwpiugyv2n8n lftpnnlc42ms c8pjupykvi8abrg0i01hcmmgvghpymf1bhqg pg1hcmnadgfuzgeuaxnpcy5vcmc hlnv end pgp public key block
marc tanda isis org \( marc thibault \) subject tapped , code good reply marc tanda isis org distribution na organization thibault friends lines 56 article 1993apr21 rick dgbt doc ca \( jerry han \) writes guess people \? live one countries world person complain without getting shot guessing , address 'd say jerry , like , lives canada unlike , thinks friends us enjoy freedom , seen slow steady erosion south us benefit relatively slow politicians ineffective law enforcement rednecks tend objects rather elected officials 's everything le keep real criminals time actually go somebody n't like attitude , 's national news \( also often blows faces eg well flawed case , resulted supreme court , le prosecuting case parliament passing law prosecuted \) friends south border n't easy time among things many le agencies agencies , teeth also war drugs gives law enforcement agencies exceptional powers ignore individuals' rights \( dea arbitrary power given canadian agencies war measures act \) ca n't stop fighting long enough really effective suppression private citizens' rights , police teeth , learned fend bent cop may ironic nation founded life , liberty pursuit happiness getting government imposed order , nation founded peace , order good government getting face liberty 's say time wo n't come looks like going run law order platform afraid cheers , marc marc thibault marc tanda isis org automation architect cis 71441 , 2226 r r 1 , oxford mills , ontario , canada nc freenet aa185 begin pgp public key block mqbnaiqxytkaaaecalfehyp0yc80s1scfvjspj5escao hihtnefrrn vuecsavh aauwpiugyv2n8n lftpnnlc42ms c8pjupykvi8abrg0i01hcmmgvghpymf1bhqg pg1hcmnadgfuzgeuaxnpcy5vcmc hlnv end pgp public key block
marc tanda isis org \( marc thibault \) subject need clipper cheap security \? reply marc tanda isis org distribution na organization thibault friends lines 30 article rdippold qualcom \( ron asbestos dippold \) writes thing worries 2 1 compression soundblaster automatically hardware , n't good feel processor intensive , ca n't estimate fast pc 'd need 's better way n't qualcom secure design decided market \? since n't going use , would n't patriotic thing put design public domain \? selling cryptography educational kit critical parts \? something could end pc option board two phone jacks \? cheers , marc marc thibault marc tanda isis org automation architect cis 71441 , 2226 r r 1 , oxford mills , ontario , canada nc freenet aa185 begin pgp public key block mqbnaiqxytkaaaecalfehyp0yc80s1scfvjspj5escao hihtnefrrn vuecsavh aauwpiugyv2n8n lftpnnlc42ms c8pjupykvi8abrg0i01hcmmgvghpymf1bhqg pg1hcmnadgfuzgeuaxnpcy5vcmc hlnv end pgp public key block
marc tanda isis org \( marc thibault \) subject organized lobbying cryptography reply marc tanda isis org distribution na organization thibault friends lines 30 article 1993apr23 news clarkson edu \( dwight tuinstra \) writes great slogan ! i'm ready sign crypto lobbying effort \( though would n't want nra offshoot \) shall also push cryptographic rights amendment \? \? looking frozen north , looks like could worse get nra involved kindred problem , large number voters , right attitude , lots funds ethical constitutional viewpoint , n't seen good argument cryptographic rights n't also support nra position guns \( vice versa \) cheers , marc marc thibault marc tanda isis org automation architect cis 71441 , 2226 r r 1 , oxford mills , ontario , canada nc freenet aa185 begin pgp public key block mqbnaiqxytkaaaecalfehyp0yc80s1scfvjspj5escao hihtnefrrn vuecsavh aauwpiugyv2n8n lftpnnlc42ms c8pjupykvi8abrg0i01hcmmgvghpymf1bhqg pg1hcmnadgfuzgeuaxnpcy5vcmc hlnv end pgp public key block
marc tanda isis org \( marc thibault \) subject overreacting \( tapped , code good \) reply marc tanda isis org distribution na organization thibault friends lines 11 article 1993apr23 rick dgbt doc ca \( jerry han \) writes smart warrior defeats enemy ambush battlefield smarter warrior defeats enemy open warfare battlefield warrior defeats enemy without using battlefield y'all got first two reversed judge roy bean
dave tygra michigan com \( david conrad \) subject new encryption algorithm organization cat talk conferencing system keywords nea lines 25 article 1raeir be1 access digex net steve b access digex com \( steve brinich \) writes well , actually , one 's easy 's job nsa supposed develop cryptosystems government chooses go ahead sell cryptosystems masses , ah , developing cryptosystems specificially designed protect government 's domestic spying capabilities takes beyond mandate , forbidden field domestic wiretapping nsa wiretapping actual wiretapping , presumably , conducted fbi course , capability provided nsa , think still within limitations charter realize fine point , may differ , opinion although n't care clipper wo n't support use , n't see nsa bounds david r conrad mind rent god government cat talk conferencing network , computer conferencing file archive 1 313 882 , 300bps , v 32 v 32bis new users use 'new' login id available via pc pursuit ! ! ! \( city code \) e mail address dave michigan com
org \( charles \) subject clipper considered harmful restated amplified organization technology , inc , houston , tx distribution inet lines 37 article 1993apr25 random ccs northeastern edu rogue ccs northeastern edu \( free radical \) writes go like feds need key phone escrow warrant tap line phone \? feds yes escrow fine , key rogue cs neu edu \( rogue agent sod ! \) also goes like need listen mafia head terrorist bbs sysop 's conversations n't probable cause tap tap \? enemy state get keys always claim phone 's used tapped line 's got way associate instrument individual state effectively tap , possibly admissible \( given war drugs exceptions 4 5 , knows \) none less tap phone charles \( work \) org standard disclaimer \( home \) cgm org mature society , civil servant equivalent civil master robert heinlein , notebooks lazarus long
skeptic demon co uk \( wendy grossman \) subject fifth amendment passwords distribution world organization lincoln house productions reply skeptic demon co uk x mailer simple news 1 90 \( ka9q dis 1 19 \) lines 17 article 1993apr16 cs aukuni ac nz pgut1 cs aukuni ac nz writes cs uiuc edu kadie cs uiuc edu \( carl kadie \) writes looks like ca n't forced reveal password , anyone provide convincing legal argument contrary \( ie actual court case \) 'd interested case britain , according head computer crime unit interviewed couple months ago wg wendy grossman 9a north avenue , founder , skeptic \( uk \) richmond , surrey writer \( 44 \) \( 81 \) 948 recovering
wustl edu \( edward anthony \) subject let 's build software cryptophones internet nntp posting host organization washington university , school engineering , st louis mo lines 18 hmmm celp takes 12 6 mips full duplex , implemented million dsp chips 56001 card pc cost 700 , i'm sure demand goes prices would drop analog devices board 're looking cost 500 \( academic price \) n't think hardware something worry get working , people snap internet phone cards like tomorrow need good implementation celp \( government code absolute crap , got 30 speedup looking couple hours \) , modifications pgp allow compress decompress 144 bit frames every think enough juice \( \) part project i'm working , 're trying get celp running realtime full duplex mode gotta find source pgp see tough would integrate en decryption parts code 'll play anyone else got setup \? ed \) \( '' \) \( \( , , \) \) \( '' \) \( \( , , \) \) see instructions edward , cec1 wustl edu side card
rogue ccs northeastern edu \( free radical \) subject tempest nntp posting host damon ccs northeastern edu organization college cs , northeastern u distribution na lines 22 article 1993apr26 193801 12416 lynx dac northeastern edu angel foghorn leghorn coe northeastern edu \( kirill shklovsky \) writes heard somewhere \( ca n't name source \) tempest necessarily pick crts , pick emissions almost chip true , kind monitor would make difference becuase everything screen picked video controller anybody verify refute \? anyone attended attest , pick information video chip 's surprisingly easy guy portable tv , minor mods worked 3 feet , demonstration ra rogue cs neu edu \( rogue agent sod ! \) nsa funding research cryptography , areas advanced mathematics 'd like circular describing new research opportunities , pick phone , call mother , ask one
steve b access digex com \( steve brinich \) subject basic crypto requirements organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 20 nntp posting host access digex net order formulate rational position cryptography policies acceptable , must set forth list basic requirements would propose following starting point 1 algorithm must publicly known , must record surviving attempts outside experts find weaknesses 2 system implementation must make possible verify advertised algorithm , fact , one used 3 key must quickly user , must sufficient length complexity defeat brute force search possible reasonably near future note requirements incompatible form key escrow system may 1993 issue byte describes example encryption system clearly implemented manner consistent requirements requiring parts key escrowed order one 's public key listed central distributor
als cpsg com au \( anthony shipman \) subject clipper considered harmful lines 24 nntp posting host cpsg com au organization computer power software group pty ltd distribution inet harvard edu \( nina yuan \) writes i'm lawyer n't even play one tv , intuitively 's something wrong one 's words archived possible future use possibility frightens talk clipper chip , right cryptography , etc \) imagine mother wheeled labour ward delivery government agent steps read baby rights right remain silent give right anything say may taken used evidence anthony shipman 've got taught 's late , cp software export pty ltd , six seven eight , 19 cato st , east , hate people relatives hate , melbourne , australia , 've got carefully taught r h e mail als cpsg com au
jin spdcc com \( jerry \) subject pd code crypt \( 1 \) like encryption organization guest stephen dyer consulting distribution usa lines 9 looking public domain \( exportable \) code encryption nothing elaborate , something satisfy marketing need \) oh yes , unix platform jerry guest user arpa jin ursa major spdcc com uucp ima , harvard , rayssd , linus , m2c ! spdcc ! jin
paul com subject birthday attack \? distribution world organization technologies lines 7 recently saw message \( posted bob silverman , think \) referred birthday attack cryptosystem i'm looking references , explanations , type attack thanks , paul
subject tempest pgut1 cs aukuni ac nz \( peter gutmann \) 1993apr26 104320 10398 infodev cam ac uk 1993apr26 193801 12416 lynx dac northeastern edu 1993apr27 random ccs northeastern edu distribution na organization computer science dept university auckland lines 12 1993apr27 random ccs northeastern edu rogue ccs northeastern edu \( free radical \) writes anyone attended attest , pick information video chip 's surprisingly easy guy portable tv , minor mods worked 3 feet , demonstration convention santa claus \? please elaborate , minds \( second third left \) want know peter
pdc dcs ed ac uk \( paul crowley \) subject clipper conference calls reply pdc dcs ed ac uk \( paul crowley \) organization edinburgh university lines 11 quoting dougb ecs comm mot com article 1993apr26 227 lmpsbbs comm mot com would use something black box words , n't think public key would work session key would agreed upon prior conversation distributed sites beforehand ca n't one site decide session key send sites public key encryption \? paul crowley pdc dcs ed ac uk trust know i'm x fold fish jesus !
convex com \( ed \) subject pd code crypt \( 1 \) like encryption nntp posting host convex com organization convex computer corporation , richardson , tx , usa distribution usa x disclaimer message written user convex computer corp opinions expressed user necessarily convex lines 19 article 1993apr27 spdcc com jin spdcc com \( jerry \) writes looking public domain \( exportable \) code encryption nothing elaborate , something satisfy marketing need \) oh yes , unix platform find 're looking hundreds sites worldwide try anonymous ftp nic funet fi \( finland \) pub unix 4 lib gen crypt c z includes source code fully functional des encryption decryption believe public domain code exportable , n't make judgements , seems obvious regards , ed
nyx cs du edu \( ralph \) subject illegal transmit encrypted data \? organization university denver , dept math comp sci lines 12 wcs anchor ho att com \( bill stewart 1 908 949 0705 \) writes fact nsa listening may affect willingness use wimpy crypto technologies , may also affect willingness use technologies violate rsa 's patents , e g use pgp , nsa may tell rsa 're , secret service catches , i'm afraid disagree point nsa tell rsa non dod entity anything eavesdropping reveals includes fbi service \( although rare exceptions \)
fig eff org \( cliff \) subject organized lobbying cryptography originator fig eff org nntp posting host eff org organization electronic frontier foundation distribution inet lines 31 jgfoot minerva cis yale edu \( josh \) writes tarl neustaedter \( tarl coyoacan sw stratus com \) wrote means eff 's public stance complicated issues irrelevant encryption issue per se may well people care encryption issue n't care associate network erotica issue \( may even disagree eff 's position \) perhaps encryption types would defend digitized porn posted encrypted \? issues seperable maintain well , regardless policy liabilities anyone washington may think eff , going ahead aggressively attacking assumptions behind administrations clipper chip initiative reasons stated washington , work assumption everyone liabilities government non governmental organizations alike share glass house eff variously identified hacker defense fund , first amendment , new communists , etc , also acknowledged leader civil liberties arena respected serious player policy circles unless another organization credibility clout right policy stance know washington , please n't count eff valid representative views clipper chip matter cliff fig eff org eff online guy \( 617 \) 576
anton hydra unm edu \( stanton \) subject pgp get \? organization university new mexico , albuquerque lines 33 nntp posting host hydra unm edu moment pgp available executable format ms dos mac , source code platforms including unix many ftp sites keep copy \( although mac version getting hard find \) try following site soda berkeley edu pub cypherpunks pgp ftp access , try bbs \( see sig \) following \( nic funet fi , garbo uwasa fi , sony com , ftp uni erlangen de \) platform execs source bbs file area fido dos x x x login , mac x x nonibm , amiga x \? nonibm archimedes x \? nonibm os 2 x \? win next x nonibm unix x x nonibm \? n't looked archive see source \( usually ca n't handle format \) fidonet freq magic names , \? \? \? names source code , others either execs execs src extras , case next , patch \( still need one full source code packages \) bbs free ad , public service announcement ! est ! stanton , sysop noise void data center bbs 369 1 1 fidonet 1 301 2 internet anton hydra unm edu data phone 1 505 246 8515 \( , 1200 14400 v32bis , n 8 1 \)
reply jhupp shockwave win net \( jeff hupp \) jhupp shockwave win net \( jeff hupp \) subject new encryption algorithm lines 27 article 1raeir be1 access digex net steve b access digex com \( steve brinich \) writes well , actually , one 's easy 's job nsa supposed develop cryptosystems government chooses go ahead sell cryptosystems masses , ah , developing cryptosystems specificially designed protect government 's domestic spying capabilities takes beyond mandate , forbidden field domestic wiretapping unlike cia , nsa prohibition domestic spying read bamford 's puzzle palace bruce book , way read , one side conversation must outside united states , ass u nsa plays rules jeff hupp internet jhupp shockwave win net 9797 medowglen , apt 1807 ad contract programming , novell houston , texas 77042 network design support voice \( 713 \) 780 9419 best govenment n't
reply jhupp shockwave win net \( jeff hupp \) jhupp shockwave win net \( jeff hupp \) subject new encryption algorithm lines 38 article 5v5 chinet chi il us , schneier chinet chi il us \( bruce schneier \) writes unlike cia , nsa prohibition domestic spying read bamford 's puzzle palace senior nsa scientist cambridge one workshops recently \( fact clipper announcement made , n't learn till 'd gone \) said point forbidden law monitor conversations us nationals \( chap precise choice words \) n't expect 'd qualms monitoring domestic us conversation one parties alien however got thinking navajo code imagine , iraqi mission new york \? iraqi foreign ministry baghdad , hussein , us citizen , social security number , indeed , new york mission , mustafa speaking , also us citizen , social security number , report activities satan ross one easy , conversation , call fbi secret service see activities satan clinton could construed threat president united states sure \( nsa , fbi , ss , , \) enough judges collective pockets warrent call jeff hupp internet jhupp shockwave win net 9797 medowglen , apt 1807 ad contract programming , novell houston , texas 77042 network design support voice \( 713 \) 780 9419 best govenment n't
subject would happen export restrictions violated \? rubin dsg4 dse beckman com \( arthur rubin \) apr23 215306 83257 yuma acns colostate edu chinet chi il us organization beckman instruments , inc nntp posting host dsg4 dse beckman com lines 35 chinet chi il us schneier chinet chi il us \( bruce schneier \) writes article apr23 215306 83257 yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu \( douglas craig holland \) writes ok , heard lot talk nsa 's infamous control encryption export itar 's question say develop great new encryption system , want sell software worldwide thought police come say algorithm threat national security permitted export point , kind trouble could get ignored itar sold program international customers anyway \? doug holland would arrested international arms several things itar never tested court concensus appears could arrested international arms \( could , regardless state law , paragraphs suggest would violating law \) goes court , itars could thrown incompatible first amendment court could rule software technical data subject itars court could rule phrase publicly available defined itars would apply , making subject requiring general export license , could prosecuted successfully arms espionage general concensus among lawyers read itars , one first two would occur arthur l rubin rubin dsg4 dse beckman com \( work \) beckman instruments brea 216 5888 mcimail com 70707 453 compuserve com arthur pnet01 cts com \( personal \) opinions , represent employer
zrepachol cc curtin edu au \( paul repacholi \) subject clipper considered harmful restated amplified lines 31 organization curtin university technology article ifd netcom com , strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes brad yearwood posts long response issue registering phone clipper relationship n't wash recall law enforcement gets court order tap suspect 's phone calls figure lines tap record stuff 's clipper , read law enforcement block , extract serial number , get keys using court order new difficulties \( using someone else 's phone instrument phone line \) introduced would n't existed absent clipper crooks going use pay phone \( say \) , could done without clipper government figures 're , listen , 's clipper conversation get serial number keys crooks use innocent person 's clipper phone tapped line 's problem feds n't care whose phone instrument used , conversation suspect tapped line get serial number , get keys , business clipper chip person association ever needed david david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted
uni duesseldorf de \( lannert \) subject clipper considered harmful restated amplified organization , heinrich heine universitaet , duesseldorf lines 47 distribution inet nntp posting host lannert rz uni duesseldorf de summary ca n't fool article wcs rainier att com wcs anchor ho att com \( bill stewart 1 908 949 0705 \) writes serial number 64 bit block , 34 bit filler n't take lot check see correct depends whether filler constant \( makes checking easy , susceptible replay \) , variable \( e g timer , counter , random \) , makes replay harder also make easier inquisitors know 've missed messages , gotten sequence , interesting things sort person might care 'd use secret \( nope , obscure \) cryptographic encoding expand 30 bit serial number 64 bit block redundancy hereby introduced used detect clipper signals public enemy replaced l e block random data course l e block would used encryption user data receiving end correct l e block must processed order chance getting plaintext back might want l e block \( e g xor ing constant pattern \) transmission line restore feeding receiving chip would add encrypted copies block \( perhaps created repeated application encryption algorithm \) regular intervals transmission receiving chip detects mismatch must assume line bad cease work interest protected getting faulty plaintext , know 's like checksum safety \( wo n't famous black box needed actual decryption kept fbi nothing prevents using special boxes redundancy check serial number block consistency checks embedded l e blocks within transmission boxes turn red light soon detect bitstream violates correct protocol n't anyone think use chip fool l e tapping key bet provided much better checks suggested course 's absolutely crucial algorithms \( protocols \) remain secret personally doubt lannert e mail rz uni duesseldorf de pgp 2 2 key via server finger lannert rz uni duesseldorf de oh , 're smith , \? preliminary p , however , sounded p g
jap cbnews cb att com \( james parker \) subject secret source announcement organization lines 14 article news intercon com amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) writes compuserve columbus , oh corporate headquarters several major insurance companies , largest private r company world \( memorial institute \) , \( defense construction supply center \) , ohio state university \( one three largest us universities \) , \( online college library center \) , 'd amazed , actually n't forget chemical abstracts service \( pretty much international clearinghouse chemical information \) , whose former director \( ronald \) head r \( nick farmer \) openly former nsa employees james parker jap att com
ad cat de \( axel dunkel \) subject summary sensible des towards bit errors \? organization c system lines 150 hi , 'd like thank fast responses special thanks go replied \( lexical order \) marcus j ranum mjr tis com paul crowley pdc dcs ed ac uk saaf se \( paul \) tarnold vnet ibm com \( todd w arnold \) wcs anchor ho att com \( bill stewart \) question sensible des encrypted data towards bit errors \? much data per bit lost average \( assume still correct key \) \? much des encrypted data affected depends used encryption mode according marcus j ranum \( mjr tis com \) cfb cipher feedback mode ecb electronic code book mode cbc cipher block chaining mode ofb output feedback mode mode stuff better others ofb cfb designed communications streams files , people strongly disagree mode lead destruction following data sure seems modes quite fast , others never , others even effect block summarized , people said concerning matter cbc mode , current block affected \( tarnold vnet ibm com todd w arnold \) use cbc \( block chaining \) , remainder data destroyed well \( saaf se paul \) cfb mode , des quite fast \( probably within 1 block according j ranum mjr tis com \) maybe someone definitely knows happens mode \? nevertheless , thank much axel dunkel include responses got tarnold vnet ibm com \( todd w arnold \) ad cat axel dunkel writes sensible des encrypted data towards bit errors \? much data per bit lost average \( assume still correct key \) \? depends mode 're using single 64 bit input block , one bit error 50 percent chance corrupting 64 output bits words , essentially turns output block random number 're encrypting data cbc mode , however , one 64 bit block affected next block , follow decrypted properly 's good idea kind error correction system corrupted bits likely todd saaf se \( paul \) article ad cat write hello , sensible des encrypted data towards bit errors \? much data per bit lost average \( assume still correct key \) \? least 8 bytes data destroyed one bit encrypted data error use cbc \( block chaining \) , remainder data destroyed well des single bit errors paul , swedish amateur astronomer 's society \( saaf \) 75 , 6 tr , 114 40 stockholm , sweden internet saaf se paul crowley pdc dcs ed ac uk sensible des encrypted data towards bit errors \? much data per bit lost average \( assume still correct key \) \? probably bad might lose rest data stream want safety dropped bits use error correcting coder like freeware gnu ecc paul crowley pdc dcs ed ac uk trust know i'm x fold fish jesus ! wcs anchor ho att com sensible des encrypted data towards bit errors \? much data per bit lost average \( assume still correct key \) \? depends mode 're using des electronic code book \( ecb \) takes block 64 input bits produces 64 output bits , bits changed , entire block 64 bits becomes bad forget feedback mode , results encrypting one block affect later blocks modes , system self , errors repaired blocks modes , one block bad , later blocks bad 's also framing problem bit change , block 's changes , maybe later blocks also change bits lost bits added \( 64 bits , 63 65 bits \) , everything confused marcus j ranum mjr tis com depends mode 're using cfb , example , pretty fast figure bit error destroy current block next one mjr experience get n't get want axel dunkel , strasse 41 , , germany e mail ad cat de , voice 49 6192 , fax 49 6192
pmetzger snark shearson com \( perry e metzger \) subject clipper considered harmful restated amplified organization partnership america free drug lines 37 brad optilink com \( brad yearwood \) writes article 1993apr22 222016 lehman com , pmetzger snark shearson com \( perry e metzger \) writes obviously n't read information system chips put serial number infomation cypher stream allow identified system rely registering people owning particular phone units proposal , lets accurate objections presume tell read system may rely upon registering people owning particular phone units , necessary know phone units likely used suspected criminal communication obtain unit keys escrow big deal legitimate law enforcement agent legitimate wiretap order , listen line 10 minutes , get serial number , take order go escrow agencies notice criminal using different phone instrument , take still valid wiretap order escrow agency new serial number \( provides opportunities abuse law enforcement , thats discussing right \) oppose clipper , mechanics simple easy understand whole rest article based large series false premises , predicated notion simple act somehow impossible feel free presume tell seem understand mechanics proposal arguing terrorists killing people clipper phones silly pointless lets really would show problem , shall \? perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire , laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
pmetzger snark shearson com \( perry e metzger \) subject overreacting \( tapped , code good \) organization partnership america free drug distribution na lines 22 jhan debra dgbt doc ca \( jerry han \) writes article rens imsi com rens imsi com \( rens troost \) writes giant bally ho clipper chip noticed rather disturbing trend e mail posts 've tossing back forth tendency part people hide head sand never advocated hiding sand i'm advocating peaceful solution peaceful solution possible unless want blood hands one mentioned violence , mr han believe imagining things perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire , laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
flute calpoly edu \( michael jacques \) subject rush read e mail \? organization california polytechnic state university , san luis obispo distribution inet lines 19 article 1993apr26 esseye si com jongsma si com writes 1993apr23 henson cc wwu edu henson cc wwu edu \( sean dean \) writes idea compuserve e mail address compuserve com however , said radio show today wo n't read anything two alt groups simply deletes without reading says people two groups vicious ken jongsma smiths industries jongsma si com grand rapids , michigan 1041 compuserve com
bryan jpl devvax jpl nasa gov \( bryan l allen \) subject new encryption algorithm summary boundaries eye beholder keywords nsa surveillance \( \) organization telos corp , jet propulsion laboratory \( nasa \) lines 25 article 49 shockwave win net jhupp shockwave win net \( jeff hupp \) writes article 1raeir be1 access digex net steve b access digex com \( steve brinich \) writes deleted unlike cia , nsa prohibition domestic spying read bamford 's puzzle palace bruce book , way read , one side conversation must outside united states , ass u nsa plays rules one thing seems ambiguous whether signal echoed geosynchronous orbit outside united states also , able assess whether nsa playing rules requires knowing rules know subset even suspicious , could surveillance organizations nsa bryan l allen bryan devvax jpl nasa gov telos corp jpl \( 818 \) 306 6425
wag caltech edu \( lim \) subject dorothy denning opposes clipper , capstone wiretap chips organization california institute technology , pasadena , ca lines 19 nntp posting host wag caltech edu security system depend secrecy keys ability tap inherent insecurity depends fundamentally secrecy algorithm spell , many people seem miss point , algorithm published , anyone could create chip would work correctly skipjack chips would key registered believe technical means ensuring key escrow without government maintaining secret kind example , secret could private keys escrow agencies digital signatures would required key could used case , nsa nist whoever decided protecting entire algorithm easier cheaper secure possible protocols lim \( wag caltech edu , genie k \) materials molecular simulation center , caltech henry spencer left , margaret signature fan
wpi wpi edu \( bi chen \) subject help faq sci crypt questions organization worcester polytechnic institute , worcester , 01609 2280 lines 14 distribution world nntp posting host wpi wpi edu dear netters scanning news group found faq could someone find faq one also , could someone recommend good books , patent information , goverment regulation science technology appreciate help much sincerely bi chen
mnemonic eff org \( mike godwin \) subject dorothy denning opposes clipper , capstone wiretap chips originator mnemonic eff org nntp posting host eff org organization electronic frontier foundation lines 40 article allen well sf ca us allen well sf ca us \( allen barrett ethridge \) writes 1993apr26 eff org mnemonic eff org \( mike godwin \) writes article c614bj bk6 agora rain com jhart agora rain com \( jim hart \) writes security system depend secrecy keys secrecy algorithms dorothy denning cite source , please cryptography data security , page 8 , perhaps thanks got two sources well full quote follows dorothy denning , cryptography data security , addison wesley 1982 , 1983 , page 8 cryptosystems must satisfy three general requirements 1 transformations must efficient keys 2 system must easy use 3 security system depend secrecy keys secrecy algorithms e mike mike godwin , ariel rose godwin mnemonic eff org born 4 15 93 4 34 pm cambridge \( 617 \) 576 7 pounds , 1 5 ounces , 19 75 inches long eff , cambridge new citizen electronic frontier
pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) subject suggestions escrow agencies \( technical details \) organization totally unorganized lines 66 article 73k vcd hp com johne vcd hp com \( john eaton \) writes paul robichaux \( lambda msfc nasa gov \) wrote private citizen , would feel much secure person papers knowing organization committed individual civil liberties aclu nra come mind safeguarding half key aclu nra government pressure simple expedient fact supported , funded , overtly controlled government thats one problem far overlooked two escrow agencies create secure database service input output keys pays \? refuse illegal request congressman deliver key budget cut punish \? congress forced fund forever \? congress n't forced anything even follow rules , n't expedient caught collective pants , make funny noises , perhaps crucify two , continue business usual notice senators involved l scandal n't hurt much , deconcini 's personal stake suppliers big n't affected credibility , inside congress , least still pushing police state agenda problem laws change congress may pass law setting escrow agency instructions keys private future congress may change law suppose pre nazi germany clipper system think escrow agencies would told hitler could keys without valid court order \? like old saw new jersey new york , chicago , etc politicians promised new gun registration law used future confiscation purposes sure enough , years later , used purpose , folks complained , response well , n't make promise politicians may even wait years escrowed keys would assurances security besides , someone wants snoop , know n't think send letter saying snooping private conversations , \? assurances escrow people forbidden report access attempts one 's keys \? much government assurances privacy effect must set escrow agencies fourth branch goverment isolate outside able directly tap federal funds accountability anyone except court challenge \? feds change law , ignore nothing new got muscle , resources , guns aside , since export crypto itar , n't second amendment also come play \? john eaton ! hp vcd ! johne pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc 1 207 \( pat myrto \) seattle , wa else fails , try ! uunet ! pilchuck ! rwing ! pat wisdom two things infinite universe human stupidity , sure former albert einstien
pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) subject screw people , crypto hard core hackers spooks organization totally unorganized lines 27 article warlord podge mit edu warlord mit edu \( derek atkins \) writes article netcom com strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes countries laws importing crypto gear believe u without license scheme wo n't work \( least legally \) countries , including least france u david bzzt ! wrong us crypto import laws 'd sure munitions import laws , could used importation crypto hardware software well firearms \? importing called 'assault use come mind note talk politics guns added newsgroups possible feedback pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc 1 207 \( pat myrto \) seattle , wa else fails , try ! uunet ! pilchuck ! rwing ! pat wisdom two things infinite universe human stupidity , sure former albert einstien
strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) subject overreacting \( tapped , code good \) organization dsi uscrpac distribution na lines 17 article 1993apr27 lehman com pmetzger snark shearson com \( perry e metzger \) writes one mentioned violence , mr han believe imagining things factually incorrect least one message said waco clipper justified anything response david david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted
galaxy nsc com \( james lu \) subject make illuminating thing \? nntp posting host nsc com organization national semiconductor , santa clara distribution usa lines 14 hobby shop , sell flexible tube \( 1 4 inch diameter , 18 inch ling \) illuminate bend shake \( also sold amusement parks evenings \) brightness last 2 4 hours left \( coldness \) , prolong life illumination something make easily \? , know reading provide details stuff \? working kids , would nice project minimum budget
mcnally quip eecs umich edu \( mike mcnally \) subject seen lobby , us organization university michigan eecs dept , ann arbor , mi distribution usa lines 51 article ms uky edu morgan engr uky edu \( wes morgan \) writes realize form letters worst way influence congresscritters exact copies routinely placed lowest opinion ladder want write \( think ! \) , take time really write letter things emphasize excellent helpful list deleted concise n't ramble rants definitely place cite references , necessary , use accepted references like academic journals neighbor jim real refer 8 \) wes 's list n't writing congressional representatives fine one 'd like encourage people pay extra attention point saying may 's nevertheless true catch flies honey vinegar writing styles prevalent net possess certain charm please remember person reading letter likely negatively influenced express concerns way makes sound like paranoid crackpot wild unsupported accusations menace nsa carry much weight , conclusions inevitable consequences proposal likely convince \( especially ones attempt strained analogies rise nazi party please save quote another letter \) want opinions taken seriously important state opinions manner understandable seems reasonable layman n't reader technical details expect know history various encryption technologies mail , hand letter non technical friend ask sanity check , realize legislators often motivated much self interest anything else try point risks terms meaningful motivating loss individual privacy rights damage restrictive export regulations american ability compete global marketplace pull strings think work legislator legislator unlikely civil rights concerns point government granted monopoly damages competitiveness businesses district manufacture market phone crypto technology mcnally
pmetzger snark shearson com \( perry e metzger \) subject secret algorithm clipper chip crypto key escrow organization partnership america free drug lines 18 strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes well , explains government real need spy people already love big brother 's people inclined talk back need watched though think overstatement , contain grain truth 's drug dealers , spies , terrorists , organized crime figures \( assuming enough probable cause convince judge \) need watched , law abiding citizens thus , cointelpro , horrible people threatened republic disagreeing government systematically kept track years perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire , laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu \( john kelsey \) subject forbidden reveal wiretap \? organization university missouri lines 4 nntp posting host mizzou1 missouri edu 's forbidden inform someone police wiretap phone , legal work sweeper , report person work whether found bug \?
c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu \( john kelsey \) subject clipper organization university missouri lines 12 nntp posting host mizzou1 missouri edu david sternlight says writer third parties claim clipper back door actually , david , n't think 's intellectually honest say say , unless 've chance examine algorithm silicon closely know , skipjack could easily broken , impossible break clearly , skipjack secure , clipper chip worth much john kelsey
tedwards eng umd edu \( thomas grant edwards \) subject clipper considered harmful organization project glue , university maryland , college park lines 16 nntp posting host src umd edu sternlight \) writes \( gideon yuval \) writes personal attacks stopped prof denning replying issues substance , cause real harm serious debate prof denning afraid posting due personal attacks , perhaps use anonymous posting service , allow heated debate occur without personal attacks anon penet back yet \? thomas
grady netcom com \( 1016 2ef221 \) subject subliminal channels dss organization capriccioso x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 59 may suggest proposed cipher system less entropy user 's key message embedded subliminal channel big difference entropy user input \( message \) entropy output \? example , take plain des unsuspecting user inputs string plaintext cranks algorithm hacked george quisling comes j nine char nine chars right \? user ships ciphertext message plaintext produced everything fine , right \? nope imagine algorithm lz compression plaintext \( compressing four characters entropy 9 wj opponent pads message message , also compressed applying des concatenated compressed pairs , first compressed message stripped declared sent receiver , opponents collects remaining message bit bucket kill prevent subliminal covert storage channels would need entropy time priori impossible \( example \) stereotypical message might replaced one bit output rest output bits long covert message words , opponent get muck algorithm either got muck last concede possible embedding covert channels words , present message less entropy given free bits storage grady netcom com 2ef221 15 e2 ad d3 d1 c6 f3 fc 58 ac f7 3d 4f 01 1e 2f
amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) subject letter clipper reply amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) organization intercon systems corporation herndon , va usa lines 30 nntp posting host chaos intercon com x newsreader intercon tcp connect ii 1 1 david reeve sward sward cmu edu writes n't know , \? algorithm classified speculate , mykotronx data sheet myk 78 , algorithm classified cryptosystem , similar application des cleared nsa classified traffic , use number years refers government type ii encryption , matches designation one types encryption available stu iii phones , may cryptosystem heard called would make sense , since evidently field proven cryptosystem act pin compatible substitute des combined tappable key exchange protocol , would offer exactly claimed clipper secure encryption access via key escrow fact case , would make quite confident encipherment algorithm , know fact cryptosystem knowledge classified cryptography n't even fuzzy \) , 's nonexistent however , would certainly least effort approach part government take old military cipher people drop place des \( least secure \) , set key escrow scheme law enforcement , promote public use also fits mykotronx , 's around almost invisible years anyone else made sort connection , pink elephants \? \) curiousity amanda walker intercon systems corporation
kennejs cs okstate edu \( kennedy james scot \) subject clipper chip organization oklahoma state university lines 44 article 67 cyberia win net , johnston cyberia win net \( robert johnston \) encryption technologies currently arms feds , hence export ban second enough attack rights fire arms , perhaps reflect well \( perhaps fire arms weapons covered second amendment \) hmmm would n't consider encryption weapon would government classify encryption \? seems encryption ought covered first amendment using line reasoning , government n't able restrict data people encrypt encryption algorithms use would restricting one 's freedom speech words , encrypted data text , graphics , information another form free speech reason government n't able regulate use encryption algorithms encrypted data time government able someone reveal encryption keys encrypted data encrypted data question may something n't protected first amendment porn even case like government required get search warrant coercing someone revealing keys btw , encryption methods considered state art feds relaxed export restrictions des yet \? also , des still regarded good form encryption \? robert johnston cyberia win net scott kennedy , brewer patriot david koresh cheap thug interprets bible barrel gun atf spokesman atf cheap thug interprets constitution barrel gun batf cigarette cops fbi 's bureau
maa plato ds boeing com \( mark \) subject clipper chip reverse engineering organization boeing defense space group lines 26 looking postings clipper chip noticed interesting omission discussion mention algorithm classified expressed concerns ideas figure algorithm using software question cant someone take one chips reverse engineer \? mean , take thing chip testing analysis facility , one decent electron microscope pry top chip start scanning electron figure circuitry remembered place use work one facilities used analyze chips accidently blew running tests could actually find area fried show us circuit sure many companies universities must facilities potential , especially university security facility looser , someone take clipper apart analyze \? government prevent \? start taking away analysis facilities electron microscopes \? \? mark
rpi edu \( william smythe \) subject seen lobby , us nntp posting host rpi edu organization rensselaer polytechnic institute , troy , ny lines 41 article apr22 yuma acns colostate edu ns111310 lance colostate edu \( nathaniel sammons \) writes 1 \) think us afford stamp envelope , cost printing letter 2 \) kind soul would write letter , upload net , everyone could capture , print , snail mail local congressional critter btw i'm working one dear senator congressman president fill blank writing voice strong opposition president clinton 's clipper chip initiative proposal establish secret government designed cryptography chip government key registration standard voice encryption disturbing idea citizens must register secrets government case trying keep secret patently unamerican additionally , press release program strongly implied forms cryptography would banned clipper chip standard place latest attack civil rights deeply disturbing frankly voting issue presidents press release stated plan strikes balance legitimate needs law enforcement citizens right privacy case fact since strong cryptographic equipment criminals , drug dealers terrorists mentioned press release simply use non clipper cryptography meanwhile average citizen may gain protection wiretaps government since government escrowed key derived unit serial number broadcast chip seems like obvious back door nsa law enforcement still nott understand objection key registration , consider way j edgar hoover government officials like would use phone transmit personal details life nsa fbi keys \? well heres letter , didnt spell check since dont know emacs might want bill smythe
pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) subject overreacting \( tapped , code good \) distribution na organization totally unorganized lines 84 article rahul net dhesi rahul net \( rahul dhesi \) writes 2109 rwing uucp pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) writes come media telling provisions clipper decision \? bulk people informed , media refuses \? answer second question lies way phrased first one 'the media ' n't media means one medium ' thousands publications say , say bulk people informed , wo n't read informative publications \? much public n't even aware names informative publications look material typical unless person working kind technical environment , usual trade journals , ever see media \( note media context popular media tv , radio , daily newspapers , publications time , newsweek , \) say pretty much thing see range center left far left , generally supportive pie sky take care think cradle grave seems air arrogance individual capable understanding major issues media n't bother inform \( clipper , example \) tells people interpret events others lost sight people good understanding things told accurate information lot expect people example , would unaware clipper picked usenet much population usenet , let alone internet access \? access better publications , person spend time digging many folks , especially work long hours , families , etc , time go digging , many \( yet \) aware things wrong , motivated dig saying right , saying way things people n't upset things n't told less objective media major problem compound attitude arrogance civil service \( bureaucrats , politicians \) act person without political connections , deep pockets \( potential \) rights , resource used control financial gain law enforcement agencies act regard common person rather intense degree contempt , supposed told , get nasty someone questions media pundits editors , etc tend fall privilege , tend upset current state affairs fellow dc , shot daring swim , illegally owned gun \( violating law pushed everyone else \) , ends walking less well connected person would crucified typical example one standard , much restrictive standard perhaps real eloquent expressing , solution sure hell make harder people find going , dismiss concerns one happens position one feels exempt insulated hypocrite journalist dc described one notices less complimentary points double standard covered media feel reason political views subject , involved journalist n't time media , main source info average person , start claim , instead spin doctors statist elements \? rahul dhesi dhesi rahul net also dhesi cirrus com pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc 1 207 \( pat myrto \) seattle , wa else fails , try ! uunet ! pilchuck ! rwing ! pat wisdom two things infinite universe human stupidity , sure former albert einstien
pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) subject clipper considered harmful organization totally unorganized lines 25 article netcom com strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes article 1993apr25 microsoft com microsoft com \( gideon yuval \) writes personal attacks stopped prof denning replying issues substance , cause real harm serious debate contact , said , think reason \? also , could possible replying reply would n't confirm worst suspicions \? suspicions way pocket , one would think person would saying , indicating pocket hiding behind veil secrecy reassuring pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc 1 207 \( pat myrto \) seattle , wa else fails , try ! uunet ! pilchuck ! rwing ! pat wisdom two things infinite universe human stupidity , sure former albert einstien
whitaker eternity demon co uk \( russell earl whitaker \) subject cryptography distribution world organization extropy institute reply whitaker eternity demon co uk x mailer simple news 1 90 \( ka9q dis 1 19 \) lines 566 begin pgp signed message please note following speech made chuck 1987 address letters address , given end document russell cryptography state via technology given future freedom conference , november 1987 know , technology particularly computer technology often gotten bad rap libertarian tend think orwell 's 1984 , terry 's brazil , proximity detectors keeping east berlin 's slave citizens side border , bugging devices nixon used harass enemies list , recognize price ticket fly twice speed sound , first walk thru magnetometer run government policeman , permit paw thru beeps think mind set mistake cattle , governments tortured prisoners clubs rubber lasers eavesdropping , governments used binoculars lip readers though government certainly uses technology oppress , evil lies tools wielder tools fact , technology represents one promis ing avenues available capturing freedoms stolen nature , favors bright \( put use \) dull \( \) favors \( quick see merit new \( sluggish \( cling time tested ways \) two better words de scribe government bureaucracy dull sluggish \? one clearest , classic triumphs technology tyranny see invention man portable , untrained peasant could reliably engage target fifty meters even target mounted , chain mailed knight \( unlike , , admittedly powerful , could get shots per unit time , required formal training utilize whereas required elaborate visual , coordination achieve degree accuracy , wielder could simply put weapon shoulder , sight along arrow , reasonably assured hitting tar get \) moreover , since mounted knights likely visit average peasant would government soldiers tax collectors , utility device plain , common could defend one another , governmental masters medieval equivalent armor piercing bullet , , consequently , kings priests \( medieval equivalent bureau alcohol , tobacco \) threatened death excommunication , , unlawful possession looking later developments , see technology like firearm particularly repeating rifle handgun , later followed gun advanced machine guns radically altered balance interpersonal inter group power without reason colt 45 called equalizer dance hall one possession fully able protect advertise ments period also reflect repeating cartridge rifle declaring man horseback , armed one rifles , simply cannot captured , long relying upon single shot rifles , quote doubtless true one updating present , public key cipher \( personal computer run \) represents equiv quantum leap defensive weapon technique used protect sensitive data one 's possession , also permit two strangers ex change information insecure communications channel wiretapped phone line , example , , matter \) without ever previously met exchange cipher keys thousand dollar com , create cipher multi cray x mp ca n't crack year within years , economically feasible similarly encrypt voice soon , full color digitized video images technology made wiretapping obsolete , totally demolished government 's control formation transfer 'd like take moment sketch ics makes principle possible algorithm called rsa algorithm , rivest , shamir , jointly created security derives fact , large number product two large primes , extremely difficult obtain two prime factors analysis product ex sense primes p q 100 digits apiece , 200 digit product cannot gen factored less 100 years powerful computer existence public part key consists \( 1 \) prod uct pq two large primes p q , \( 2 \) one fac tor , call x , product xy xy \( p 1 \) \( q 1 \) 1 private part key consists factor block text encrypted first turned integer either using ascii , even simple 01 , b 02 , c 03 , , z 26 representation integer raised power x \( modulo pq \) resulting integer sent encrypted message receiver decrypts taking integer \( secret \) power \( modulo pq \) shown process always yield original number started makes development , called public key cryptography , openly publish product pq number x , keeping secret number anyone send encrypted message , namely x \( mod pq \) , recover original message , taking send , raising power taking result \( mod pq \) risky step \( meeting exchange cipher keys \) eliminated people may even trust enough want meet , may still reliably ex change encrypted messages party selected disseminated pq x , maintaining secrecy another benefit scheme notion dig signature , enable one authenticate source given message normally , want send message , raise plaintext x take result \( mod pq \) send however , message , take plaintext raise \( secret \) power , take result \( mod pq \) , raise result x \( mod pq \) send , even normally decrypted message , still look like garbage however , raise public power x , take result \( mod public pq \) , recover ori plaintext message , know one could sent \( since one else knows secret \) concerns way day soviet union whole question personal computers one hand , recognize american right growing com commonplace used , fact , things computers interest \( instruct \) 3 4 year olds pre students one generation hence going head head soviet counterparts soviets hold back might suicidal continuing teach adversaries learning ballistics hand , whatever else personal computer may , also efficient copying machine floppy disk hold upwards 50 , 000 words text , copied couple minutes n't threatening enough , computer performs copy also encrypt data fashion unbreakable remember soviet society publicly ac xerox machines unknown \( relatively copying machines existence controlled machine guns united states \) conservative position sell computers soviets , could use weapons systems liberal position sell , interests mutual trade cooperation anyway , n't make sale , certainly nation willing part , i'm ready suggest libertarian position give soviets free , necessary , make take n't work load sr 71 air drop moscow middle night paid private sub , course , taxation confess position gained much support among members conventional left right political spectrum , , af ter , words one 's characters , political non shortest distance particular goal may look anything like people would consider straight line taking long enough world view , arguable breaking soviet govern ment monopoly information transfer could better lead , indeed , ultimate dissolution soviet empire would production another dozen missiles aimed moscow 's rub long enough world view suggest evil , oppressive , coercive simply stupid get deserve , 's immediately clear rest us escape killed , enslaved , process liberals began tack freedom , possessed reasonably stable , healthy , functioning economy , almost unlimited time proceed dismantle policy political least conceivable , crazy economy held together wire spit state taxes us feed poor also farmers slaughter milk cows drive food prices simultaneously turns around sub research agricultural chemicals designed crease yields milk cows left alive witness fact decline price oil considered potentially frightening comparable increase years ago price went , told , economy risked collapse want energy price increase called moral equivalent war feds swung action first time american history , speed drive car work morning came issue federal concern , price oil drops , risk problems , time oil companies third world basket case nations sell oil may able ever pay debts grossly extended banks suggested panacea government raise oil prices opec lowered , via new oil tax since government seeking raise oil prices extent opec , call except moral equivalent civil war government people \? , , international trade , imag entity world except government going court claiming vendor selling goods cheaply demanding naughty vendor compelled court raise prices , also punished act lowering first place \? statists could afford take couple hundred years trash economy liberties certainly cannot count equivalent period stability reclaim contend exists almost black hole effect evolution nation states evolution stars free dom contracts beyond certain minimum extent , state fabric political continuum degree subsequent emergence freedom becomes impossible good illustration seen area called welfare payments public \( thus \) whose taxes must , possible choice democracy perpetuate expand ing unearned benefit many \? go nearest welfare office , find two people dole recognize form voting bloc forever question owns life fruits life 's labor essentially love liberty need edge sort 're ultimately going prevail ca n't use work , slave , suffer , sacrifice , next generation billion random strangers live better world recognize , however immoral appeal might , nonetheless extremely powerful one today 's culture convince people work cause , caring enough personal welfare remain alive enough healthy enough continue working truly massive reservoir energy draw equally clearly , sort ap cannot utilized libertarian goals stand tonight say something like , listen , follow noble cause , contribute money support cause , give free time work cause , strive bring , \( children dead \) maybe children 's children ally live 'd think 'd gone mad course 'd right point i'm trying make libertarianism spread , , , individual libertarians find profitable enjoyable probably certainly concept poli action , n't believe , even necessarily cost effective path toward increasing freedom time consider , fraction investment time , money effort might expend try ing convince state abolish wiretapping forms censorship teach every libertarian 's use cryptography abolish unilaterally maxim proverb generally attributed , likely libertarians al ready heard likely would quarrel saying , might well feel 've heard often enough already , nothing teach us , moreover , maybe 're even tired hearing shall therefore repeat give man fish , saying runs , feed day teach man fish , feed lifetime exposure quote probably sort vs welfare context namely , genuinely wish help someone need , teach earn , simply beg course true , next time hungry , might anybody around willing even able give fish , whereas information fish , completely self sufficient submit exhausts first order content quote , nothing glean , would wasted time citing , seems almost crypto slant , though imply structure ac maximize benefits hungry may encounter consider suppose eskimo n't know fish , know hunt , hand , often gone hungry traveling thru country idea catch damn things , ate fish could catch suppose two decide exchange information , fishing knowledge hunting knowledge well , first thing observe transaction type categorically unambiguously refutes marxist premise every trade must winner loser idea one person gains , must necessarily expense another person loses clearly , scenario , case party gained thing , neither way comes exchange information \( rather material objects \) life longer zero sum game extremely powerful notion law diminishing returns , first second laws thermodynamics laws constrain contexts longer bind us ! 's anarchy ! consider another possibility suppose hungry eskimo never learned fish ruler nation state decreed fishing illegal fish contain dangerous tiny bones , sometimes sharp , tells us , state decreed consumption even possession hazardous people 's health permitted even knowledgeable , willing adults perhaps citizens' bodies thought government property , therefore function state punish improperly care govern ment property perhaps state extends competent adults benefits provides children mentally ill namely , full time , need trouble making choices behavior thought physically risky morally naughty , case , stare , eskimo informant lates law taken seriously friend recently imprisoned years crime pos session nine ounces trout intent distribute may conclude society grotesquely oppressive enforce law type simply dignity human beings may go far ther decide commit portion discretion , recreational time specifically task tyrant 's goal \( rationale may sense wanting liberate oppressed , sense proving likely combination per even motives \) , since zero desire become martyr cause , 're mount military campaign , even try run fish blockade however , technology particular formation technology multiply efficacy literally say literally , fraction effort \( virtually none risk \) attendant smuggling hundred fish , quite readily produce hundred xerox copies fishing instructions \( tar government , like present day america , least permits open discussion topics whose implementation , suffice , government attempts suppress flow information well , take little effort perhaps write fishing manual floppy disk encrypted according mythical eskimo 's public key parameters far increasing real world access fish made genuine may continue others information provided waste time trying convert id adversaries , even trying win recall harry 's freedom world success endeavor general inversely proportional number people whose sion necessary look history , cannot deny dramatically shaped men names like washington , lincoln , nixon marcos ilk also shaped people names like edison , curie , marconi , tesla latter shaping least per , nearly bloody 's i'm trying take project rather state please en slave , plunder constrain us , propose libertarian net work spreading technologies may seize freedom must bit careful \( present \) illegal encrypt information government wants spy , guarantee fu ture may hold bills introduced , exam , would made crime wear body armor government wants shoot , commit certain crimes wearing kevlar vest , fact would constitute separate federal crime law knowledge passed yet indicate government thinks technological applications , however , indeed pose legal risks recognize , example , anyone helped pre civil war slave escape underground railroad making clearly illegal use technology sovereign government united states america time found buying selling human beings quite acceptable buying selling cattle simi , prohibition , anyone used ferment yeast sugar illegal psychoactive drug , alcohol controlled substance , wine using way could get shot dead federal agents crime unfortunately restored life congress reversed permitted use drug quote former president , un indicted co conspirator felon let make one thing perfectly clear project advocate , participate , violation law matter oppressive , unconstitutional simply stupid law may engage description \( informational purposes \) technological processes , processes \( like flying plane manufacturing firearm \) may well require appropriate li perform legally fortunately , license needed distribution receipt information self , next time look political scene despair , thinking , well , 51 nation 51 state , 51 city turn libertarian 'll free , somebody might well cut goddamn throat , put misery recognize case exist ways make self free wish explore techniques via project , welcome give name address fake name mail drop , matter 'll go mailing list published newsletter friends acquaintances think would interested welcome well i'm even asking stamped self addressed envelopes , since printer handle mailing la actual postage costs noise compared efforts getting issue idea share , even useful product plug , 'll glad write publication even want proverbial free rider benefit others contribute 're still welcome everything public domain feel free copy give away \( sell , matter , 'cause get money i'm taking full page ads trying give away , 're certainly entitled capitalist profit \) anyway , every application principles make world little , i'm certainly willing , least forseeable fu ture leave one final thought n't learn beat swords outlaw swords , sure hell ought learn outlaw chuck project 3194 drive los angeles , california 310 836 netcom com address updated december 1992 , permission chuck , russell whitaker interested issues raised piece participate least newsgroups alt privacy alt security pgp comp org eff talk sci crypt copy rsa based public key encryption program , pgp 2 1 \( pretty good privacy \) , obtained various ftp sites around world one site gate demon co uk , ms dos version anonymous ftp zip pub pgp versions operating systems , including unix variants macintosh , also available source code also available 's blurb pgp , way quote pgp \( pretty good privacy \) ver 2 2 rsa public key encryption freeware msdos , protects e mail lets communicate securely people 've never met , secure channels needed prior exchange keys well featured fast ! excellent user documentation pgp sophisticated key management , rsa conventional hybrid encryption scheme , message digests digital signatures , data compression encryption , good ergonomic design source code free filenames zip \( executable manuals \) , zip \( sources \) keywords pgp , pretty good privacy , rsa , public key , encryption , privacy , authentication , signatures , email end quote russell earl whitaker whitaker eternity demon co uk communications editor extropy journal thought board member , extropy institute \( \) begin pgp signature version 2 2 cfh 4 q4 end pgp signature
jet uk \( richard \) subject triple des keywords des organization joint european torus lines 22 seen various references recently could anyone tell \? context , would guess means encrypting block 3 times , different key time , 'd like sure replies email preferred news unreliable thanks , richard pgp public key available request pgp public key available request disclaimer please note personal view construed official comment jet project
pom anke uni mainz de \( prof dr klaus \) subject summary des init vector additional key \? keywords des , key search , initialisation vector nntp posting host anke uni mainz de organization johannes gutenberg universitaet mainz lines 60 risk getting lost clipper chip discussion give summary recent question article zdv uni mainz de wrote recent discussion news group suggests key search attack des quite feasible normally des applied cbc cfb mode one chooses random init vector 8 bytes questions makes sense handle init vector additional key \? 56 64 120 bit key yes anything known security key scheme \? break faster exhaustive search 120 bit key space \? unfortunately answer concealing initialisation vector essentially n't give additional security got 3 answers \( grady netcom com , mark cl cam ac uk , smb research att com \) opened eyes 's pretty simple say e encryption \( decryption \) key k 64 bit blocks let c 0 initialisation vector , 1 , 2 , message blocks , c 1 , c 2 , cipher text blocks encryption cipher block chaining \( cbc \) mode works formula c e \( xor c 1 \) , decryption c 1 xor \( c \) attacker n't c 0 affects first message block 1 key search attack 2 , 3 , situation cipher feedback \( cfb \) mode bit complicated similar left exercise reader \) finally modified output feedback mode \( ofb \) des \( whatever block cipher use \) simply acts random generator e \( 1 \) initialisation vector \( seed \) 0 , encryption given c xor usual attack xor bitstream ciphers reduces cracking key search k klaus institut fuer statistik und der johannes gutenberg universitaet strasse 69 , w 6500 mainz , germany
brad clarinet com \( brad templeton \) subject dorothy denning opposes clipper , capstone wiretap chips organization clarinet communications corp lines 60 article c614bj bk6 agora rain com jhart agora rain com \( jim hart \) writes security system depend secrecy keys secrecy algorithms dorothy denning jhart agora rain com 're reading far much \( aside obvious fact n't hold anybody wrote 10 year old book rapidly changing field like \) quite simply says security depend secrecy algorithm secret algorithm still secure , , n't know level trust affected , security system algorithm could rsa know , believe secure much better reason classify algorithm protect security want protect market share publish algorithm , shortly manufacturers would make chips implement algorithm standard use key stored escrow course , everybody would buy whole push chip establishing standard use follow rules , get us follow rules without new laws would fight tooth nail quite simply , clipper established , would much harder another encryption maker define new standard , make phones ca n't talk leading phone companies result tappable cryptography without laws forbidding kinds , 99 populace get crypto , would build special phone runs top system , everybody talk would one 's chicken egg crypto government using special ability solve chicken egg problems new technologies control one way like 's almost clever eff started , posed question police going wake discover ca n't wiretap \? nobody answer \( even thought much question \) came backdoor digital telephony bills , fought real answer , brad templeton , clarinet communications corp sunnyvale , ca 408 296 0366
h2o ens fr \( philippe \) subject clipper chip nntp posting host ens fr organization ecole superieure , paris , france lines 42 article 145 almaden ibm com , jbs watson ibm com writes realistic government try keep details encrytion algorithm secret intends use evidence james b think use eavesdropping evidence however , using info gather listening , go searching right place find good , strong evidence , use court question currently , easy wire tap , technical point view , least anybody using appropriate radio receiver listen communications car telephone ground station police also , obviously clipper chip make much difficult non authorized person eavesdrop \( note write impossible \) privacy thus improve current situation poeple really something hide already use phone speak things illegal operation really worth , one afford critical data carried person rather sending electronically clipper chip change problem politic foreign countries never accept clipper chip access escrow cannot directly granted police following law , us law e country escrow possible monitor international traffic \? , encrypted international traffic possible \? international escrow , kind u n thing \? forbidding communication impractical possible spot communication thousands megabytes data circulate various existing networks private networks \? impossible volume electronic traffic next years think clipper chip interesting device limit risk , instance , one 's girlfriend 's husband listening wife 's communications bring regards security worth \? think cost limited , think many privacy invasions done official services , also private entities clipper help reducing provided hope much , real danger helpful ph
steve b access digex com \( steve brinich \) subject illegal transmit encrypted data \? organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 7 nntp posting host access digex net i'm afraid disagree point nsa tell rsa non dod entity anything eavesdropping reveals n't know might find expedient way keep people using something ca n't crack
steve b access digex com \( steve brinich \) subject dorothy denning opposes clipper , capstone wiretap chips organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 13 nntp posting host access digex net believe technical means ensuring key escrow without government maintaining secret kind necessarily instance , system outlined may 1993 issue byte , process getting one 's public key listed general use involves giving pieces private key escrow agencies , calculations pieces forward result publishers public key directory , combines results listed public key try give escrow agencies pieces n't yield private key put together , result public key listed wrong ca n't read messages encrypted
jfc athena mit edu \( john f carr \) subject clipper chip organization massachusetts institute technology lines 22 nntp posting host achates mit edu article 1993apr28 ens fr h2o ens fr \( philippe \) writes forbidding communication impractical possible spot communication thousands megabytes data circulate various existing networks private networks \? suspect government feels enough prevent companies offering secure encryption services big companies n't take kind risk 're visible much lose us government may make encryption illegal prevent use could say ibm mit receive us government money next year unless follow voluntary guidelines use encryption , doubt either organization would delay making use encryption violation local policies us government gets much power making impractical operate without getting money government putting restrictions use money would illegal enacted laws john carr \( jfc athena mit edu \)
dave tygra michigan com \( david conrad \) subject let 's build software cryptophones internet organization cat talk conferencing system lines 17 article 1993apr27 wuecl wustl edu wustl edu \( edward anthony \) writes modify pgp allow compress decompress 144 bit frames every part project i'm working , 're trying get celp running realtime full duplex mode gotta find source pgp see tough would integrate en decryption parts code presume going use idea session encryption transmit session key rsa \? david r conrad mind rent god government cat talk conferencing network , computer conferencing file archive 1 313 882 , 300bps , v 32 v 32bis new users use 'new' login id available via pc pursuit ! ! ! \( city code \) e mail address dave michigan com
dave tygra michigan com \( david conrad \) subject cryptography bibliography organization cat talk conferencing system summary bibliography available request lines 16 yesterday read article someone requesting references introductory texts cryptography although marked article return , appears expired site anyway , one previous occasions subject arose saved couple articles made suggestions one articles contained quite impressive bibliography poster request \( anyone else \) would like email , would glad send copies recommendations , including bibliography david r conrad mind rent god government cat talk conferencing network , computer conferencing file archive 1 313 882 , 300bps , v 32 v 32bis new users use 'new' login id available via pc pursuit ! ! ! \( city code \) e mail address dave michigan com
peter informatik uni oldenburg de \( peter \) subject clipper crap organization university oldenburg , germany lines 22 reply kckluge eecs umich edu 's message wed , 28 apr 1993 04 30 27 gmt wed , 28 apr 1993 04 30 27 gmt , kckluge eecs umich edu \( karl kluge \) said kk \( shaun p hughes \) writes kk newsgroups sci crypt kk sphughes sfsuvax1 sfsu edu \( shaun p hughes \) kk date sat , 17 apr 1993 07 18 59 gmt kk random passing thought , anyone cite documented use kk encryption technology criminals terrorists kk \( excluding iran contra gang \) kk sure , rum runners prohibition see kahn 's codebreakers kk irony , using better codes key security kk governments castro che guerra used one time pads , think scientific american article quantum cryptography
res colnet cmhnet org \( rob stampfli \) subject organized lobbying cryptography organization little none distribution inet lines 13 article transfer stratus com cme ellisun sw stratus com \( carl ellison \) writes article 1r3jgbinn35i eli cs yale edu jgfoot minerva cis yale edu writes perhaps encryption types would defend digitized porn posted encrypted \? paraphrase , may agree 're encrypting , defend right encrypt suppose waco , 's prudent leave death part rob stampfli rob colnet cmhnet org neat thing standards 614 864 ham radio oh many choose
oml eloka demon co uk \( owen lewis \) subject tempest distribution world organization eloka project management reply oml eloka demon co uk x newsreader simple news 1 90 \( ka9q dis 1 21 \) lines 44 article 1993apr26 193801 12416 lynx dac northeastern edu angel foghorn leghorn coe northeastern edu writes heard somewhere \( ca n't name source \) tempest necessarily pick crts , pick emissions almost chip true , kind monitor would make difference becuase everything screen picked video controller anybody verify refute \? correct \( several times \) tempest standard , shared nato governments , limit emission information either electromagnetic radiation limits set standard classified open source information effect either electrical magnetic components exploited basic rule physics electromagnetic field associated path conducts flow electrons among things , drive 1987 korean built clone associated 24 pin printer major source unintentional emission crt added video driver card , rs232 parallel cable printer head emissions gross detected equipment apply good test equipment intelligence measuring emission levels , would find many potential sources leaked information cryptography used serious purposes , poor tempest protection becomes important security hazard early eighties , need allow commercial concerns , particularly financial institutions , level protection tempest threat led series briefings invited corporations cut tempest commercial use say equipment meet standard available \( price approved customers \) even commercial standard remains classified think , would really would n't \? owen lewis tele fax 44 \( 0 \) 794 eloka project management oml eloka demon co uk pgp 2 x public key request
reply jhupp shockwave win net \( jeff hupp \) jhupp shockwave win net \( jeff hupp \) subject clipper good enough government \? lines 19 stupid wo n't cost companies hoping serve gov't private markets use technology \? would guess wo n't use clipper use stu iiis amoung governmental agencies need talk , ignore clipper , 's secure enough agency department communicating trust \? jeff hupp internet jhupp shockwave win net 9797 medowglen , apt 1807 ad contract programming , novell houston , texas 77042 network design support voice \( 713 \) 780 9419 best govenment n't
josh n andrew cmu edu subject cryptography organization sponsored account , school computer science , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 46 distribution world nntp posting host po5 andrew cmu edu reply eternity demon co uk think mind set mistake cattle , governments tortured prisoners clubs rubber lasers eavesdropping , governments used binoculars lip readers though government certainly uses technology oppress , evil lies tools wielder tools evil good walk hand hand also important note good tools lies wielder tools fact , technology represents one promis ing avenues available capturing freedoms stolen cannot accept ridiculous leap logic technology neutral good evil technology used evil men , called evil technology used good men , called good technology really , technology allows action realized larger scale nature , favors bright \( put use \) dull \( \) try confused development technology use certainly , bright people better creating technology , even young children know program vcr machines vcr machines extremely complex create \? favors \( quick see merit new \( sluggish \( cling time tested ways \) flexibility always better enduring stiff stubborn young child soft old man stiff dripping water cut stone nothing technology , rather technology allows us action two better words de scribe government bureaucracy dull sluggish \? objection ! \) cmu edu \) silent \( thunder
pose rh ee ac za \( r h w poser \) subject make illuminating thing \? distribution usa organization electrical computer engineering , university pretoria lines 30 nntp posting host 137 215 124 105 article dns1 nmsu edu dante nmsu edu \( cho \) writes father worked american cyanamid sometime mention recipe secret neither us know toxic stuff synthesize substance available organic lab called usually find organic lab book something similiar substances normally secret , get method normally patented , means one else make chemical way , without undergoing agreement american cyanamid \( guess knew patent \) \) know substance used , 'll also know toxicity rumor base form stuff used light sticks reaction disadvantage lasting long commercial version remember compounds found nature , poisonous regards , \( \) \( r h w poser chem eng iii university pretoria \) \( fidonet 5 7101 22 23 rolf poser p23 f22 n7101 z5 fidonet org \) \( fastest pose rh babel ee ac za tel 27 12 \) \( \)
nyx cs du edu \( ralph \) subject illegal transmit encrypted data \? organization university denver , dept math comp sci lines 20 steve b access digex com \( steve brinich \) writes i'm afraid disagree point nsa tell rsa non dod entity anything eavesdropping reveals n't know might find expedient way keep people using something ca n't crack let 's put way , charter several executive orders obey , among things explicitly prohibit sharing information \( unless things changed last little \) suppose could ignore , choose doubt would authoritative look nsa , get bamford 's puzzle palace 's say ralph
george tessi com \( george mitchell \) subject organized lobbying cryptography organization test systems strategies , inc , beaverton , oregon distribution na lines 25 marc tanda isis org \( marc thibault \) writes looking frozen north , looks like could worse get nra involved kindred problem , large number voters , right attitude , lots funds also lot voters really ethical constitutional viewpoint , n't seen good argument cryptographic rights n't also support nra position guns \( vice versa \) okay , folks , know i'm minority issue , ca n't let assertion go yet i'm going say , hopes starting flame war main topic guns offensive cryptography defensive see difference \? way use gun hurt somebody else crypto helps prevent people hurting sorry digression let 's forget issue agree want continued access crypto technology choice , without key registration george mitchell \( george tessi com \)
koontzd phobos lrmsc loral com \( david koontz \) subject triple des keywords des organization loral rolm computer systems lines 5 please post news ,
pdc dcs ed ac uk \( paul crowley \) subject organized lobbying cryptography reply pdc dcs ed ac uk \( paul crowley \) organization edinburgh university lines 10 quoting amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) article khb news intercon com george tessi com \( george mitchell \) writes guns offensive cryptography defensive see difference \? nope information , properly delivered , deadly lead true lemon pie paul crowley pdc dcs ed ac uk trust know i'm x fold fish jesus !
jhupp shockwave win net \( jeff hupp \) subject stu iii general question reply jhupp shockwave win net \( jeff hupp \) lines 10 people willing trust stu iii \? government \? jeff hupp internet jhupp shockwave win net 9797 medowglen , apt 1807 ad contract programming , novell houston , texas 77042 network design support voice \( 713 \) 780 9419 best govenment n't
fig ucsb edu \( lowell r snyder \) subject tempest distribution na lines 13 angel foghorn leghorn coe northeastern edu \( kirill shklovsky \) writes article 1993apr26 104320 10398 infodev cam ac uk rja14 cl cam ac uk \( ross anderson \) writes heard somewhere \( ca n't name source \) tempest necessarily pick crts , pick emissions almost chip true , kind monitor would make difference becuase everything screen picked video controller anybody verify refute \? anything emissions problem , right video cable given right equipment , pick screen paint cable , given cable , must know sent know format signal , well many wires , etc
matt ra oc com \( matthew lyle \) subject clipper chip reverse engineering organization openconnect systems , dallas , tx lines 31 maa plato ds boeing com \( mark \) writes mention algorithm classified expressed concerns ideas figure algorithm using software question cant someone take one chips reverse engineer \? mean , take thing chip testing analysis facility , one decent electron microscope pry top chip start scanning electron figure circuitry remembered place use work one facilities used analyze chips accidently blew running tests could actually find area fried show us circuit sure many companies universities must facilities potential , especially university security facility looser , someone take clipper apart analyze \? government prevent \? start taking away analysis facilities electron microscopes \? \? using technology developed vlsi systems , manufacturer clipper chips , produces chips supposed highly resistant reverse engineering matthew lyle matt oc com matt utdallas bitnet openconnect system , dallas , texas \( 214 \) 888
rboudrie chpc org \( rob boudrie \) subject suggestions escrow agencies \( technical details \) organization center high perf computing wpi marlboro lines 7 assurances escrow people forbidden report access attempts one 's keys \? ny state already crime inform anyone law enforcement wiretap phone , even person informing learns non means
mathew mantis co uk \( mathew \) subject clipper considered harmful organization mantis consultants , cambridge uk lines 26 x newsreader rusnews v1 02 tedwards eng umd edu \( thomas grant edwards \) writes personal attacks stopped prof denning replying issues substance , cause real harm serious debate prof denning afraid posting due personal attacks , perhaps use anonymous posting service , allow heated debate occur without personal attacks er , people going make personal attacks prof denning whether posts much obvious looking traffic last weeks therefore conclude existence personal attacks irrelevant decision concerning whether post suspect prof denning actually using attacks excuse posting , real reason silence clipper sort proposal self respecting support via reasoned argument mathew want constructive discussions , importantly , taken seriously peers , may wish consider shaping advice offered david sternlight
amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) subject dorothy denning opposes clipper , capstone wiretap chips reply amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) organization intercon systems corporation herndon , va usa lines 23 nntp posting host chaos intercon com x newsreader intercon tcp connect ii 1 1 brad clarinet com \( brad templeton \) writes much better reason classify algorithm protect security want protect market share 's one way put keeping algorithm classified means disclosure falls national security nothing like federal marshalls guard monopoly result tappable cryptography without laws forbidding kinds , 99 populace agreed , although still somewhat better status quo \) get crypto , would build special phone runs top system , everybody talk would one sounds like job free software foundation \) 2 amanda walker intercon systems corporation
neuhaus vier informatik uni kl de \( stephan neuhaus \( \) \) subject clipper crap nntp posting host vier informatik uni kl de organization university kaiserslautern , germany lines 19 kckluge eecs umich edu \( karl kluge \) writes article 1993apr17 9555 csus edu sphughes sfsuvax1 sfsu edu \( shaun p hughes \) writes random passing thought , anyone cite documented use encryption technology criminals terrorists \( excluding iran contra gang \) couple days ago , heard radio news neo nazi organization set bbs keep members informed according radio man , nazis using encryption reduce risk prosecuted , information fun stephan neuhaus informatik uni kl de sig closed inventory please leave outside pgp 2 2 public key available request note expiration date
cme ellisun sw stratus com \( carl ellison \) subject organized lobbying cryptography distribution na organization stratus computer , software engineering lines 21 nntp posting host ellisun sw stratus com article rdippold qualcom rdippold qualcomm com \( ron asbestos dippold \) writes george tessi com \( george mitchell \) writes guns offensive cryptography defensive see difference \? 're neutral whether 're offensive defensive depends use nonsense mike , heinlein 's moon harsh decides weapon mechanism allows deliver energy distance \( n't book handy 'd find exact quote \) guns cryptosystems disclaimer opinions expressed , course carl ellison cme sw stratus com stratus computer inc m3 2 bkw tel \( 508 \) 460 2783 55 fairbanks boulevard marlborough 01752 1298 fax \( 508 \) 624 7488
ee92jks brunel ac uk \( jonathan k saville \) subject triple des organization brunel university , uxbridge , uk x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 18 richard \( jet uk \) wrote seen various references recently could anyone tell \? context , would guess means encrypting block 3 times , different key time , 'd like sure replies email preferred news unreliable could people replying question post responses well , i'm sure others \( including \) would like hear thanks jon jon saville alive say , art , ee92jks brunel ac uk poet , may tell thy dreams \? ' pgp 2 2 public key available upon request finger
subject clipper chip questions rubin dsg4 dse beckman com \( arthur rubin \) organization beckman instruments , inc nntp posting host dsg4 dse beckman com lines 21 sol tis com mjr tis com \( marcus j ranum \) writes scanning clipper reverse engineering algorithm missing something obvious \? could government done address possibility \? really care stays classified \? yeah , 're missing obvious fact since algorithm classified , reverse engineer chip , later publish , build compatible chip , 're classified information big load trouble n't think without changing law chip n't classified , reverse engineering allowed law \( possibly \) unless prohibited valid contract algorithm may classified , many court cases ruling information identical information , obtained unclassified sources , freely \( possible exception nuclear weapon information \) arthur l rubin rubin dsg4 dse beckman com \( work \) beckman instruments brea 216 5888 mcimail com 70707 453 compuserve com arthur pnet01 cts com \( personal \) opinions , represent employer
cme ellisun sw stratus com \( carl ellison \) subject clipper crap organization stratus computer , software engineering lines 39 nntp posting host ellisun sw stratus com article kckluge krusty eecs umich edu kckluge eecs umich edu \( karl kluge \) writes article 1993apr17 9555 csus edu sphughes sfsuvax1 sfsu edu \( shaun p hughes \) writes encryption 's dual edge sword encryption helps protect privacy individuals industry , also shield criminals terrorists need clipper chip random passing thought , anyone cite documented use encryption technology criminals terrorists \( excluding iran contra gang \) sure , rum runners prohibition see kahn 's codebreakers irony , using better codes key security governments yes great chapter elizabeth friedman \( sp \? \) comes shining however , chapter also notes rum runners invented crypto hired ex military folks , fact \( 's door \? \) , given today 's rum runners \( coke runners , actually \) even money yesterday 's , 's reasonable expect even better cryptography doubt chip yet , , question fbi nist nsa going make rum runners use clipper chip \? answer 're question ok case , justification taking away rights evaporated justify loss rights ca n't use drug dealers terrorists \? disclaimer opinions expressed , course carl ellison cme sw stratus com stratus computer inc m3 2 bkw tel \( 508 \) 460 2783 55 fairbanks boulevard marlborough 01752 1298 fax \( 508 \) 624 7488
pla sktb demon co uk \( paul l allen \) subject clipper two additional possible problems reply pla sktb demon co uk organization chaos lines 53 x newsreader archimedes begin pgp signed message article netcom com netcom com \( pope \) writes want talk someone , n't need previously exchanged keys , call , phones establish session key us using zero knowledge algorithm something kind \( 've misunderstood part , probably invalidates rest notion \) lends spoofing go buy pair clipper phones go pair phone lines back room somewhere , digital switch programmed redirect calls one two lines instead , whenever receives call two phones wired back back clear anyone see problem scheme , assume public officials phone company employees totally \? far see , matter session keys generated \( diffie hellman whatever \) , cripple conversation travels whole part land line vulnerable scheme law enforcement agencies legally telco , illegally finding part phone line cut degree risk depends much location good middle busy street , bad line open country \( leading drug lord 's ranch \) way defeat would phone equivalent public key indexed phone number every phone might want call \( \) totally impractical , even part cripple algorithm could used kind public key \( n't understand enough things know \) sort encryption scheme really workable radio link , even could probably without causing problems phones nearby physically close target phone gosh , yet another way get round cripple encryption many 've found far \? 's without even knowing details algorithm paul begin pgp signature version 2 2 b end pgp signature
rja14 cl cam ac uk \( ross anderson \) subject hardware hash function keywords hash , md5 , des , hardware , software nntp posting host ely cl cam ac uk organization u cambridge computer lab , uk lines 13 article watson ibm com , watson ibm com \( erol \) writes , question fast hash function designed hardware implementation \? yes , use stream cipher chip hash data slight modification see `a fast cryptographic checksum algorithm based stream , x lai , ra , j , 92 pp 8 7 8 11 ross
tenney netcom com \( glenn tenney \) subject help ! nut threatening sue ! organization netcom online communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 44 n't wish rehash pgp patent issue , feel potential misconceptions intellectual property laws need raised article rubin dsg4 dse beckman com rubin dsg4 dse beckman com \( arthur rubin \) writes pgp violates patents , executing pgp could violation distributing pgp could infringement , pgp documentation seemed sufficient protect distributors \( deleted using pgp might patent violation us , need keep \) correct executing pgp would violation \( unless patent declared invalid courts \) , question , , distributing pgp would violation person company distributing pgp receives money , clearly sale \( example , compuserve , charge access would selling pgp \) charge pgp things get less clear , would still reasonable view infringement nb jim bidzos legal action take , unless believe prove someone using pgp us , purpose specifically allowed patent laws \( entirely correct , anyone sue reason , , cannot prevail unless prove evidence \) patent laws , pgp legitimate uses , means study algorithm , order produce improvements \( would still require approval execute , patent runs around 2000 \) common misconception patent laws mention valid purpose infringing patent although clear order create new invention either based prior patent avoid infringing prior patent , one must perform research existing patent say infringed patent \( assume 're talking rsa patent \) research purposes \( wink wink , \) never develop related invention \( ie use \) , would clear infringement glenn tenney voice \( 415 \) 574 3420 fax \( 415 \) 574 0546 tenney netcom com ham radio
carl com \( carl shapiro \) subject letter clipper organization las vegas sun distribution inet lines 19 article mid netcom com strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes part basis belief nsa people , spend much money , much better hardware anyone else could said many goverment agencies , big budgets , large staffs , long lead time n't made many models effectiveness fact us outside inner circles james bamford 's word people nsa use legendary masses computers anything reading netnews , like many us nsa n't impressive record accomplishments , least public record david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted , hand , ! 's \?
access digex net \( louis emmet mahoney \) subject clipper two additional possible problems organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 10 nntp posting host access digex net erwin trwacs fp trw com \( harry erwin \) writes anyone interested adopting british telecom 's quantum encryption scheme \? 've demonstrated 10 km link automatically detects wiretapping tell us \?
mark bart demon co uk \( mark \) subject clipper two additional possible problems reply mark bart demon co uk organization dis \( organised \) lines 16 x mailer simple news 1 90 \( ka9q dis 1 19 \) article erwin trwacs erwin trwacs fp trw com writes anyone interested adopting british telecom 's quantum encryption scheme \? 've demonstrated 10 km link automatically detects wiretapping bt phone system anything go thinks approached great caution mark without warranty , internet mark bart demon co uk implied cis , fitness particular purpose yo dude ! click , click
hut fi \( tapani lindgren \) subject des nntp posting host hut fi organization helsinki university technology , finland lines 21 article 1993mar31 com mikel com \( mikel \) writes could well use 16 character password perform encryption 64 zero bits one simple method would use first 8 characters encrypt 64 zero bits use remaining 8 characters encrypt result output would still 64 bits 11 ascii characters would n't method vulnerable birthday attack \? currently cracker needs find \( 1 \) key produces given ciphertext try 2 63 keys average proposed method cracker needs pair key halves store 2 32 guesses one half , likely find pair 2 32 guesses \( assumed des encryption reversable , key guessed modifications boxes salt bits make non reversable \? \) 1 probably one key think 1 chance 128 two keys \( anyone verify \? \) , n't help cracker much
lips ecn purdue edu \( kevin l \) subject source code substitution cipher organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 7 wondering anyone knew could find source code program solve substitution cipher \? thanks ! kevin \( please post answer instead e mailing directly \)
\( michael sawyer \) subject clipper stuff organization university hawaii x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 distribution inet lines 25 ben \( ben genesis mcs com \) wrote clipper fairly secure leaves distinct clipper signature , 's difficult tell msg clipper encrypted , even ca n't tell contents \? case , anyone trying hide behind encryption scheme stand traffic raise red flag nsa , etc think obvious answer \( may posted , n't seen \) encrypt data scheme , run clipper way police able detect encryption wiretap , even notice illegal wiretap , hard time seeing judge issuing warrant search confiscate illegal scheme \( assuming one day , comes worse case \) based illegal wiretap , maybe idealist ben internet ben genesis mcs com ben tai chi il us michael sawyer opinions mine , necessarily uh 's , nsf 's , nasa 's university hawaii physical oceanography satellite remote sensing ripem public key available ,
olson umbc edu \( bryan olson \( g \) \) subject advanced one time pad \( one time pad stuff \) organization university maryland , baltimore county campus lines 35 distribution world nntp posting host umbc edu k 've read group , know one time pad , 's question n't seen one time pad ideal security , well known flaw authentication suppose use random bit stream pad , exclusive encryption operation adversary knows plaintext message , change message 's works alice sending bob plaintext p , key stream alice computes ciphertext c xor p , sends bob eve knows p , wants message appear p' eve intercepts c , computes c' c xor p xor p' xor p' eve sends c' bob bob decrypts c' computing p' , thus receiving false message substituted eve question attack defeated information theoretic security , computational security define something like ideal authentication analog ideal security obtain ideal authentication \? , much limit eve 's control message \? achieve ideal authentication , solution use key bits expand message \? show solution optimal one parameters \? anyone know questions \? olson umbc edu
tds att com \( tony \) subject audio cds \? reply tds att com \( tony \) organization bell laboratories reply steve b access digex net 's message 30 apr 1993 21 16 29 0400 nntp posting host ho att com lines 19 30 apr 1993 21 16 29 0400 , steve b access digex net \( steve brinich \) said steve hmmm given error corrections modern audio cds , steve sufficient simply instruct agent decrypt using steve bit stream second cut latest garth brooks steve cd , usual number bit errors found acceptable steve commercial cds error correction enough steve message method used \? one unreliable data point looking shoulder recording engineer , decided seeing raw error rate 1 cd '' mass market cds state mind arithmetic \( waiting finish could go get something eat \) questionable tony room performance analysis department 101 corner road bell laboratories holmdel , nj
ji cs columbia edu \( john ioannidis \) subject organized lobbying cryptography organization columbia university department computer science distribution na lines 11 article 1993apr30 csus edu sphughes sfsuvax1 sfsu edu \( shaun p hughes \) writes perhaps someone ask zippy pinhead opinion \) yow ! encrypting yet \? n't go discussion months ago \? must go \? ji
c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu \( john kelsey \) subject one time pad authentication \? nntp posting host mizzou1 missouri edu organization university missouri lines 51 think couple ways guaranteeing authenticity one time pad scheme , though i'm sure prove kind provide obvious first attempt might truly random \( unpredictable eve \) block message , calculate crc included random starting block message could encrypted message problem , i'm sure 's impossible come message hash crc regardless random starting block \( intuitively seems like ought hard , i'm sure \) clearly , crypto strength hash like md5 sha would stronger , , i'm sure i'm comfortable claiming 's unbreakable scheme use pad bits decide many bits 0 's include plaintext stream going would n't bad , either cost increasing speed use pad , could used give arbitrarily low probability opponent could spoof valid looking message , since deciphered plaintext spot carrying 0 's show something funny 's going , message bit , used one random bit , r , decide whether insert 0 plaintext stream , 'd get total pad use 2 5 times message length \( 'd expand message size half \) 0 appear plaintext stream n't guess would bit , guess i'm trying see quantify chances making way spoofed message , gets little complicated , get un , still happen 0 place spoofed message , see simple way 's got secure one time pad , cost using 4 times message length pad bits message bit , , use one random bit , r , xor together get x , encrypt three bits one time pad enemy way guessing r , ca n't guess x , either change makes ciphertext stream involve guess r way without using many pad bits \? spoofing message equivalent correctly guessing many random bits bits message clearly , makes spoofing messages hard know whole message text know none fact , looks like makes hard generate spoofed message ciphertext without , i'm entirely sure easier way 's provably secure one time pad \? john kelsey
com au \( greg rose \) subject authentication one time pads \( advanced one time pad \) summary presents one time pad based mac organization australian computing communications institute lines 93 article umbc edu olson umbc edu \( bryan olson \( g \) \) writes one time pad ideal security , well known flaw authentication suppose use random bit stream pad , exclusive encryption operation adversary knows plaintext message , change message 's works alice sending bob plaintext p , key stream alice computes ciphertext c xor p , sends bob eve knows p , wants message appear p' eve intercepts c , computes c' c xor p xor p' xor p' eve sends c' bob bob decrypts c' computing p' , thus receiving false message substituted eve firstly , aside agree weakness exists , lot trouble believing represents difficulty real life given 1 purpose one time pad give unbreakable security , expense key distribution etc , imply clients really want level security 2 people want keep p secret find hard believe eve might happen copy p lying around \( aware argument applies eve knowing even small part message , eve must know exactly \( bytes \) c known starts , result garbled find least surprising \) back question resources use one time pad transmissions , would also append message authentication code message , using next bits one time pad key perhaps original question basically asked whether way authenticate message degree security pad provided , n't know answer however , would propose following discussion alice bob arbitrary number secret , random bits share , eve n't know finds \( effectively \) knowing p corresponding c fact correspond causes problem message authentication code created using one time pad operation eve could know parts mac affected parts input , would unable mac correspond required non linear parts message \( non linear simply whatever n't exactly effect \) , end encrypted message c , alice n bit mac computed follows \( s2 means next full chunk one time pad \) 1 compute c2 p xor s2 , pad n bit boundary 2 break c2 n bit chunks 3 set mac 0 \( initialisation vector \) 4 chunk sequentially set mac mac c2 end process mac message authentication code \( bob verifies mac obvious manner plaintext p , uses pad reproduce mac manner \) non linear operator , rub simplest non linear operator think box , fixed \( even published \) permutation n bit integers , table called , use x x xor practically speaking , think solves problem , eve never sees intermediate output c2 , hence ca n't deduce s2 perform valid substitution also practically speaking , want mac fairly large , say 32 bits , might want 4 \( say \) box , might work 4 byte sized boxes , think irrelevant detail discussion hand first point errors , give pointer literature \? greg rose australian computing communications institute com au 61 18 174 842 standard phrase may
ritterbus001 wcsub ctstateu edu subject ir remote control receiver lines 37 nntp posting host wcsub ctstateu edu organization yale university , department computer science , new , ct article wb9omc dynamo ecn purdue edu , wb9omc dynamo ecn purdue edu \( duane p mantick \) writes freenet carleton ca \( marc dion \) writes project , would like build infra red remote control receiver \( regular vcrs tvs remotes \) anybody info tips build receiver \? particular , \) photo detector use \( wavelength remotes use \) \? b \) ics circuit use \? c \) suggestions circuit layout another suggestion find brand tv uses ir remote , go look sams often find detailed schematics parts list receiver transmitter well , including carrier freq specs tone decoding specs system uses probably wo n't help 'd willing bet every manufacturer used little self contained modules think sharp made radio shack used sell bucks \( maybe still \) module 3 leads power , ground output contained photo detector , amplifier , demodulator tiny metal want buy one , try radio shack , else tv repair shop probably order one btw carrier frequency 40 khz , different tv vcr cable box stereo manufacturer uses unique pulse scheme perform different function equipment jim ritterbus001 ctstateu edu net \( temp , rf \) art , guide says , rather knack flying knack lies learning throw ground miss
mcmahan netcom com \( dave mc mahan \) subject 8x oversampling cd player keywords oversampling , cd , digitized audio organization dave mcmahan netcom services lines 63 previous article , kolstad cae wisc edu \( joel kolstad \) writes article dd0 netcom com hcb netcom com \( h c bowman \) writes bought new portable cd player office , notice proudly proclaims 8 times oversampling box think understand oversampling \( rate discrete samples exceeds highest frequency component interest factor \) , n't understand 8 times business seems bought first cd player \( really 10 years ago \? ! \) , specs said 4 times could someone please tell whether i'm getting senile \? i'm , good player take samples higher rate \? data ever read \( barring , course \) , eventually gets turned 44 1 khz , 16 bit , two channel data oversampling takes two discrete data points , interpolates n 1 points n times oversampling asked , people said interpolation simply linear interpolation , significantly complicated quite correct understanding filtering interpolation , would distort frequency content signal listening generally , players run samples thru pass filter network done ecg waveforms person 's heart , effect rather actually peaks n't \( correctly , ! \) fills gaps properly computed values , real sample taken point use cpu math takes decent \( unreasonable \) amount cpu time keep things realtime write efficient code case care , filtering method uses fir \( finite impulse response \) filter 'd guess cd makers use kind method anybody know real answer \? 'd say use tapped delay line resistor op amp weighting accomplish filtering strikes cost effective method volume production runs anyway , , purpose oversampling move effective sampling rate n times 44 1 khz , order use higher frequency filters quality filter , higher oversampling lets build cheaper filters , whereas price filter , higher lets build better filters , assuming quality components cd player remained , oversampling allow manufacturer produce slightly better sound due anti alias filtering actually , think reason say would guess acutally cheaper filter signal use components give filter roll n't sharp 's bad charge something \( think \) actually less costly build seriously doubt filters cost better built price spec , spec says cheap possible ! joel kolstad dave dave mcmahan mcmahan netcom com 17 382 59 190
isi ethz ch \( thomas \) subject voltage regulation current limiting organization swiss federal institute technology \( eth \) , zurich , ch x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 21 andy collins \( acollins uclink berkeley edu \) wrote one quick question throw guys class project , need design build power supply following specs adjustable 1 12v current limited 1a voltage must stay within 2 designated value 0 1a ac ripple less 5 mv \( rms \) decide kind circuit must know limiter current allowed temp drift first case , use transistor voltage reference 0 7 vdc temp drift k second case better use ref opamp circuit detect maximum current output opamp limit current bye thomas
crash cts com \( greg \) subject adcom cheap products \? organization cts network services \( crash , ctsnet \) , el cajon , ca lines 23 transfer stratus com michael vos stratus com writes gather shore assembly mean built blue fin 's squid fi sound \? \( agree one \) adcom 555 preamp sound better installing famous running chips class resistor mod , replacing metal bottom cover , , bad factory could make em sound better , , better sound , unfortunately , appear priority adcom , else mods would neither necessary , would improved already touted state art le really want hear people traded \( even ! \) 555 etc , maybe dumped amps gfa 555 etc one folks traded 500 audio research ii ! \) enjoying \? yes ! sound better price greg
plumpe oasys dt navy mil \( david plumpe \) subject pink noise reply plumpe oasys dt navy mil \( david plumpe \) organization carderock division , nswc , bethesda , md lines 18 sci electronics , wayne uva386 schools virginia edu \( tony wayne \) writes pink noise used sound experiments \? pink noise constant power per geometric frequency increment \( octave , 1 3 octave , etc \) thus 20khz octave amount noise power octave white noise constant power per arithmetic frequency increment \( hz , khz , etc \) thus 10 band amount noise power band \( bands 100hz wide \) pink noise made passing white noise thru octave filter \( usually network several rc pairs \) note ca n't get octave using half octave network \( pink noise commonly used audio power response measurements shows audio spectrum \( octave related bands \) flat line across bands
dragon acadiau ca \( nelson \) subject need info dsp project organization acadia university lines 2 file simtel archives called zip think dsp
nessie mcc ac uk \( ian hawkins \) subject making odd resistor values required filters organization manchester computing centre lines 14 constructing active filters , odd values resistor often required \( e something like 3 14 k ohm resistor \) \( seems best choose common capacitor values cope strange resistances demanded \) pd program work best make resistance , given fixed resistors standard 12 values per decade \? \( 1 , 1 2 , 1 5 , 1 8 , 2 2 , 3 3 etc \) common enough problem , yet cant recall program tells rx ry rz gives rq , starting q finding prefered values x , z cheers ian h
subject electronic parts nyc \? david cunyvm bitnet organization city university new york lines 3 anyone know find modem comm software apple iie \? would prefer manhattan , new jersey would work david , cunyvm cuny edu
otter hpl hp com \( tom gardner \) subject radio freq used measure distance \? organization hewlett packard laboratories , bristol , uk lines 24 sci electronics , rgc3679 bcstec ca boeing com \( robert g carpenter \) writes i'm wondering 's possible use radio waves measure distance transmitter \( \) receiver \? yes 's called radar seems able measure signal strength determine distance would short distances \( 2000 ft \) , would need accuracy 6 inches , depends environment static yes , dynamic environment \( objects moving \) kills concept measuring vertical distance well , chance getting ridiculous \? difference vertical horizontal \? frequencies would best \? matter \? depends required range , required accuracy , allowable ambiguity range , frequencies fcc \( etc \) allow use
wout dutentb et tudelft nl \( wout \) subject pink noise nntp posting host et tudelft nl organization delft university technology , dept electrical engineering lines 23 tony wayne writes pink noise used sound experiments \? tony pink noise random signal low frequency components white noise look frequency spectrum white noise frequency analyzer , find spectrum power density flat , means every frequency present noise signal often pink noise obtained white noise integrating low pass filtering white noise signal therefore pink noise contains much low frequency components effect pink noise sometimes used simulate thunder roaring animals additional low pass filter variable cutoff frequency explain enjoy wouter
cmh eng cam ac uk \( c hicks \) subject 8x oversampling cd player nntp posting host club eng cam ac uk organization cam eng keywords oversampling , cd , digitized audio lines 82 mcmahan netcom com \( dave mc mahan \) writes previous article , kolstad cae wisc edu \( joel kolstad \) writes article dd0 netcom com hcb netcom com \( h c bowman \) writes bought new portable cd player office , notice proudly proclaims 8 times oversampling box think understand oversampling \( rate discrete samples exceeds highest frequency component interest factor \) , n't understand 8 times business seems bought first cd player \( really 10 years ago \? ! \) , specs said 4 times could someone please tell whether i'm getting senile \? i'm , good player take samples higher rate \? data ever read \( barring , course \) , eventually gets turned 44 1 khz , 16 bit , two channel data oversampling takes two discrete data points , interpolates n 1 points n times oversampling asked , people said interpolation simply linear interpolation , significantly complicated quite correct understanding filtering interpolation , would distort frequency content signal interpolate 's linear interpolation though correct frequency content altered \( specifically , spectrum preserved , every nth image spectrum \( n 1 \) n image spectra removed , n oversampling rate \) listening generally , players run samples thru pass filter network done ecg waveforms person 's ideally filter gain 1 , gain 0 new frequency practice finite transition band required , also certain amount pass band ripple stop band leakage high order \( eg 200 taps \) digital filter , good approximation easily achieved bit deleted observations interpolation filter work case care , filtering method uses fir \( finite impulse response \) filter 'd guess cd makers use kind method anybody know real answer \? 'd say use tapped delay line resistor op amp weighting accomplish filtering strikes cost effective method volume production runs , actually use digital fir like , built hardware , custom vlsi chips \( mainly \) economic reasons anyway , , purpose oversampling move effective sampling rate n times 44 1 khz , order use higher frequency filters quality filter , higher oversampling lets build cheaper filters , whereas price filter , higher lets build better filters , assuming quality components cd player remained , oversampling allow manufacturer produce slightly better sound due anti alias filtering actually , think reason say would guess acutally cheaper filter signal use components give filter roll n't sharp 's bad charge something \( think \) actually less costly build guess answer somewhere two interesting \( \? \) aside , may aware scheme used pioneer , called \( pioneer , least \) link n't heard one players , reading advertising blurb , couple pseudo technical articles deduced build lousy digital oversampling filter , let load first image \( ie \) spectrum talking bob stuart \( stuart , aka meridian \) confirmed suspicion said sounded awful , would , would n't christopher christopher hicks paradise linear gaussian world cmh uk ac cam eng \( also reported taste hot sweaty \)
kolstad cae wisc edu \( joel kolstad \) subject radio freq used measure distance \? organization u wisconsin madison college engineering lines 12 article otter hpl hp com otter hpl hp com \( tom gardner \) writes difference vertical horizontal \? gravity \? n't gravity pull photons cause doppler shift something \? \( kidding ! \)
u009 csx cciw ca \( g stewart beal \) subject radio freq used measure distance \? organization canada centre inland waters lines 27 article bcstec ca boeing com rgc3679 bcstec ca boeing com \( robert g carpenter \) writes i'm wondering 's possible use radio waves measure distance transmitter \( \) receiver \? seems able measure signal strength determine distance would short distances \( 2000 ft \) , would need accuracy 6 inches , would susceptible fading , multi path etc used use system shop made south africa used 10 ghz signal 2 units across distance measured 10 ghz carrier real signals several switched ones around 7 5 mhz , whose relative phases receiver would read digits distance 10 cm needed units came \( sp \? \) measure relative humidity instructions correction measurements due rh temp rather heavy required operator end current technology uses polarized , dual tx rx psuedo random coding radar pulse resolution x band , much better \( one end heavy \) \) regards , stu beal , , u009 csx cciw ca , national water research institute , burlington , ontario , canada 'd made yet another nuclear winter lawn trapped eaten 's first robin kyle j
eos ncsu edu \( donald james barnes \) subject arcade style buttons joysticks originator eos ncsu edu reply eos ncsu edu \( donald james barnes \) organization north carolina state university , project eos lines 32 article gap caltech edu , cco caltech edu \( frank \) writes anyone tell possible purchase controls found arcade style games many projects working would greatly augmented could implement thanx advance hap controls outside chicago sells andrew macrae actually , 's , equipment found parts express catalog \( 1 800 338 \) show switches 2 , joysticks 13 trackballs 80 also pinball parts 're right , controls , inc , buy direct n't phone number , anyone interested email n't remember button price , joystick price 8 95 per dozen last check slightly higher one two , cheaper parts express trackballs , n't know new price either sell rebuilt arcade trackballs 50 includes new rollers new bearings \( nec \) also pile used joysticks buttons would willing sell please email address interested please note new email address donald barnes coach , i'm barnes csc ncsu edu computer engineering kind nice break day , n't sam n c state university
bill occs cs edu \( bill \) subject need info organization college computer science distribution sci electronics x posted occs cs edu nntp posting host sol ctr columbia edu lines 10 n't know much , i'm looking information help avoid problems n't thought ! would like inexpensive amplifier tape \( line level \) outputs something like edmund sells 250 also sell microphone \( \) head 24 , one construct enclosure \? information would greatly appreciated , thanks ! bill bill occs cs edu
dux dundee ac uk \( j psychology ext \) subject video recording vga screen organization computing service university dundee scotland , uk lines 12 nntp posting host dux dundee ac uk x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 hi , think subject says anyone know take rgb h standard vga connector record video tape \? \? help appreciated ! mark j \? \? program pc want videotape show people program works presentation giving
wayne r node hub org \( wayne dawe \) subject flexible solar cells organization r node public access unix 1 416 249 5366 lines 10 two three years ago saw report tv company developed method making solar cells flexible failing memory convinced flexible metal application requires flexible solar cell hoping someone netland knows something company similar product help would greatly appreciated wayne dawe \( pick path , path n't send wayne r node hub org anything bigger 15k \) wayne r node gts org wayne r node pci ca wayne r node uucp
jeffj uucp \( j jonas \) subject electronic parts nyc \? summary anymore ! organization jeff 's house computer pieces lines 25 article 1993apr21 trintex uucp elr trintex uucp \( ed ravin \) writes trans electronics , canal street near 7th ave lots surplus type stuff 've years several electronics surplus type places still canal street 2 years ago closed electronics city closed , took weeks many clear everything \( heard \) places sell connectors phone wires , chips , capacitors discrete stuff sylvan wellington still broadway canal , 're cheap , surplus 's mostly tv repairman 's store jeffrey jonas jeffj panix com jeffrey jonas jeffj panix com
sburton dres dnd ca \( stan burton \) subject long distance ir detection distribution na organization defence research establishment suffield lines 48 content type text plain charset iso 8859 1 nntp posting host stan content transfer encoding 8bit x newssoftware grn beta 1 16g \( 04 01 93 \) michael b smith mike schwartz mime version 1 0 article wb9omc dynamo ecn purdue edu wb9omc dynamo ecn purdue edu \( duane p mantick \) writes duane , nailing irleds may suggest getting siemens 2 irled \? unit designed take big current pulses get duty cycle bit output nearly watt \( 975 mw \) real short duty cycle times \( nice thing 2 cheap got mine 50 cents piece , even though buy 100 \) saying extras would like cost recovery \? may interested think practical cost reasons limited envelope detection leaves increasing output power increasing optical gain receiver methods extend range btw , seen irleds outputs 6 watts honest , 6 watts n't book work ca n't recall company name 6 ai n't cheap , around 108 want power , , 's pretty hot also 4 watt , 2 watt 1 watt device line , sell small quan individuals interested , find book home get pertinent info yes i'm interested company name access extensive data book collection kind power , getting area eye safety getting problem , position detector , might try florida phone number listed 92 93 904 253 seem like nice people specialty passive infrared detection devices , might able help long way might better source find around i'm curious applications n't mind saying device sounds like could useful game , although 'd need carrier signal concept 58 8 khz i'm keeping application confidential raising frequency problem , fact one respondent question said may mimic 50 duty cycle normally used ir detector chips stan burton \( dnd crad dres dtd mss agcg \) sburton dres dnd ca \( 403 \) 544 4737 dre suffield , box 4000 , medicine hat , ab , canada , t1a 8k6
sburton dres dnd ca \( stan burton \) subject long distance ir detection distribution na organization defence research establishment suffield lines 31 content type text plain charset iso 8859 1 nntp posting host stan content transfer encoding 8bit x newssoftware grn beta 1 16g \( 04 01 93 \) michael b smith mike schwartz mime version 1 0 article 1993apr22 macc wisc edu jvannes vms macc wisc edu writes probably referring products opto diode corp 750 mitchell road newbury park ca 805 499 make amazing irled 's really high powered devices arrays 3 , 6 , 9 , led 's 66 header 9 chip model puts 6 5 watts response 5 amp , 10 us pulse 5 duty cycle think designed ir vision systems jeez , would also interested application work dance technology program , want build something track dancers 30 foot wide stage 50 feet away interesting application , controlled lighting environment , moderate distances might interesting application thought , could use roof mounted ir sender , similar operation tv remote control tells persons coded ir send pulse detector , mentioned previous message thread , would give current position store computer could replay movements screen interesting ! stan burton \( dnd crad dres dtd mss agcg \) sburton dres dnd ca \( 403 \) 544 4737 dre suffield , box 4000 , medicine hat , ab , canada , t1a 8k6
plumpe oasys dt navy mil \( david plumpe \) subject making odd resistor values required filters reply plumpe oasys dt navy mil \( david plumpe \) organization carderock division , nswc , bethesda , md lines 14 sci electronics , nessie mcc ac uk \( ian hawkins \) writes constructing active filters , odd values resistor often required \( e something like 3 14 k ohm resistor \) \( seems best choose common capacitor values cope strange resistances demanded \) pd program work best make resistance , given fixed resistors standard 12 values per decade \? \( 1 , 1 2 , 1 5 , 1 8 , 2 2 , 3 3 etc \) common enough problem , yet cant recall program tells rx ry rz gives rq , starting q finding prefered values x , z since 're worrying third decimal place , assume 're using 1 tolerance resistors capacitors \?
com \( jack powers \) subject ntsc horiz vert drive black burst \? summary need derive horizontal vertical drive black burst keywords video organization inc lines 8 would like hook cameras recently donated local community cable tv station sync inputs form horizontal vertical drive station sync black burst works fine boxes genlock style inputs anyone point design , article , whatever showing produce horizontal vertical drive signals \? thanks advance jack powers
schuster panix com \( michael schuster \) subject radio electronics free information card organization panix public access internet unix , nyc lines 14 article i5 acsu buffalo edu v064mb9k ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( neil b gandler \) writes radio electronics free information cards work send general information companies advertise magazine also give sign catalog varies may get catalog price list advertiser , ad specific product sheet product line mike schuster schuster panix com compuserve com schuster shell portal com genie
kschang sfsuvax1 sfsu edu \( kuo sheng \( kasey \) chang \) subject disks copy protected organization san francisco state university lines 75 article 1993apr21 863 imag fr schaefer imag imag fr \( arno schaefer \) writes article 1993apr21 lumina edb tih , ketil edb tih \( ketil albertsen , tih \) writes article 1993apr20 230749 12821 reed edu , mblock reed edu \( matt block \) writes guess saying question difficult , impossible , answer exactly want know \? need good one project working \? secure must \? trying crack one someone else used \? probably make suggestions , assuming activity strictly legal \( general , bad idea , legally , tamper copy protection also lead corruption files necessarily back ups \( copy protected , \) devestating \) absolutely ideas practical applications , merely curious \? please clear questions , 'll try help much may interpret offer volunteer editor copy protection faq \? quite sure alone welcoming initiative ! volunteer ask questions , provide answers \) hey , stop encouraging \? copy protection serves one pur pose keep honest buyer making \( legal \) backup copies definitely stop pirates want protect soft , supply good documentation support imho way effectively protecting software several types copy protection , point make sure user using legitimate copy simplest virtually fool proof way program somehow fixate machine installed \( sort checksum , serial number , whatever \) copy put different machine \( installed original disks \) work program definitely , restored machine \( depends programmer n't use disk drive characteristic ! \) user upgrade machine , reinstall programs way document look , disk wear tear ! say originals would allow one install user 's conscience know , 'll get flamed increasing number casual users either unknowingly n't care software copyrights \( 's truth friends ask copies latest games time , refused , went somebody else \) , casual pirating becoming problem sort copy protection discourage casual copying 've seen friends dug somewhere latest greatest games , cracked , within days actual release ! know many bytes need change x wing disable quiz \? two ! yes , two ! \( n't ask ones \) determined pirates unstoppable , given enough time , results spread far , since pirate boards well known , easily tracked found authorities casual pirates copy protection determined discourage believe companies implement plus special patch user registers loudly exclaims upon bootup registered xxxxx address , city , state zip disables two benefits 1 \) encourages registration , 2 \) cuts pirating makes traceable , patch 's registration message encrypted , quite hard change , therefore provides stable trail allowed copy hands , thus violated license agreement way , legitimate users register experience minimal discomfort \( major upgrades computer frequently \? \) problem wo n't able restore another computer registered users would proven users therefore gains full rights , restore different machines hand , software company record particular copy supposed user 's copy found somewhere supposed , know broken license agreement course , hacker break eventually , 's point , \? kasey chang
mchen terra cs psu edu \( michael chen \) subject disks copy protected reply kschang sfsuvax1 sfsu edu 's message thu , 22 apr 1993 16 36 05 gmt nntp posting host terra cs psu edu 1993apr21 863 imag fr 1993apr22 163605 24784 csus edu lines 7 companies compressed executables lzw kind encryption process , change two bytes thing would go right window michael chen depths lucid horrors spring fond hopes pure desires mchen cs psu edu except comes hell ! \) 7 23 92
apgea army mil \( richard g \) subject magic layout editor organization apg edgewood , md , usa lines 7 nntp posting host apgea army mil heard magic transported macintosh environment anybody know get hold \? thanks advance responses rich dept army aberdeen proving ground , md
schuch phx mcd mot com \( john schuch \) subject ir detector 'cards' \? \? \? keywords ir card nntp posting host bopper2 phx mcd mot com organization motorola computer group , tempe , az lines 26 article 1993apr22 monu6 cc monash edu au yoyo cc monash edu au \( sebastian \) writes hi people ok heres problem keep hearing little credit card type things detect ir light think avaliable states even england , alas live australia could someone please inform get things , \? \? \? much \? \? \? sure , edmund scientific company 101 e pike barrington , nj , \( 609 \) 573 card page 15 last catalog got cost ranges 19 80 , depending size range wavelengths card responds john
ggruscho nyx cs du edu \( george gruschow \) subject disks copy protected organization university denver , dept math comp sci lines 98 sehari iastate edu \( babak sehari \) writes 1993apr20 230749 12821 reed edu mblock reed edu \( matt block \) writes article sehari marge ecss iastate edu sehari iastate edu \( babak sehari \) writes wondering , copy protection techniques avaliable , effective \? anyone experience area \? highest regards , babak sehari uh oh umm , number copy protection schemes involve modifying physical media , involve encryption schemes , c ones existed course computing successful time recall , however , near monthly releases new ways crack copy protection scheme latest releases fact , none completely secure , anywhere near less difficult crack , already cracked guess saying question difficult , impossible , answer exactly want know \? need good one project working \? secure must \? trying crack one someone else used \? probably make suggestions , assuming activity strictly legal \( general , bad idea , legally , tamper copy protection also lead corruption files necessarily back ups \( copy protected , \) devestating \) absolutely ideas practical applications , merely curious \? please clear questions , 'll try help much incidentally , uh oh top indicative dread anyone watched friends hacking equipment carted feels asked hack area wrought dangers , many include breaking law , least addressing \( one side \) matt written program want market would like certain degree protection , since main individuals know laser hole burning method , hardware key method , however , software going cost 15 00 , afford also , low price afford people make many copy software well , guess say upto 20 copying ok however , want someone get copy pctools copy software course , never meant forbid true hackers copying , since develope better program anyway highest regards , babak sehari one popular methods course password check ask word page x , line , word z , simple remove unless throw main part program , self rewriting code confuse people also , make sure program run debugger another method course even make bad sectors original disk , write certain key certain sector help , also must code protection schemes mentioned first paragraph make sure also fill rest parts disk garbage well , \( wanna crackers \) look junk random sector like mentioned , laser holed disks hardware keys , expensive pain butt end user , opposite want another configuration used save configuration machine installed format think program find system , requests installed original disk original disk encrypted , , many sectors checked , anything else think make sure original cannot copied , must put code encryption , self rewriting code , multiple crc checks program make sure get changed among things , also protects program virii program detects change code , tell user virus detected program tell program virus secure , remember , helped world kill pirating kill viruses feel good hope helped fun knock cracking \( well , ca n't , everything written cracked , 'll process ! \) goodbye program sold \? george gruschow death yfn ysu edu ggruscho nyx cs du edu
lihan ccwf cc utexas edu \( bruce g bostwick \) subject subliminal message flashing tv organization university texas austin , austin tx lines 25 distribution usa nntp posting host doc cc utexas edu article 293 kc2wz bubble org bob kc2wz bubble org \( bob \) writes logic camp clarkson edu \( rich \) says hi research subliminal suggestion psychology paper , read one researcher flashed hidden messages tv screen 1 200ths second possible \? thought take look alt folklore urban thread subliminal messages tv fact subliminal messages n't work aside , image ca n't flashed tv screen fast enough noticed well , yes image ca n't screen less 1 30 second , mixture images 's 90 field supposed 10 addition could overlaid one field , producing overall effect sluggish discrete image projected 1 300 second although , like previous poster , reserve doubts effectiveness said discrete image steering around bgb lihan ccwf cc utexas edu reason world n't \( really bruce bostwick \) dissolved total chaos great state texas murphy 's law also applies murphy
johne vcd hp com \( john eaton \) subject radio freq used measure distance \? organization hewlett packard vcd x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 lines 26 robert g carpenter \( rgc3679 bcstec ca boeing com \) wrote i'm wondering 's possible use radio waves measure distance transmitter \( \) receiver \? seems able measure signal strength determine distance would short distances \( 2000 ft \) , would need accuracy 6 inches , might try looking whats available laser locating systems work best close work \( 1 mile \) rf used much longer distances two major modes transponder phase transponder requires send pulse another station returns measure round trip time minus receiver time phase measurements require two transmitting stations sending frequency signal multiplexed time receiver pick measure phase shift signals maps drawn plot lines position correspond certain phase shift two stations john eaton ! hp vcd ! johne
ggruscho nyx cs du edu \( george gruschow \) subject disks copy protected organization university denver , dept math comp sci lines 29 ketil edb tih \( ketil albertsen , tih \) writes article 1993apr20 230749 12821 reed edu , mblock reed edu \( matt block \) writes guess saying question difficult , impossible , answer exactly want know \? need good one project working \? secure must \? trying crack one someone else used \? probably make suggestions , assuming activity strictly legal \( general , bad idea , legally , tamper copy protection also lead corruption files necessarily back ups \( copy protected , \) devestating \) absolutely ideas practical applications , merely curious \? please clear questions , 'll try help much may interpret offer volunteer editor copy protection faq \? quite sure alone welcoming initiative ! volunteer ask questions , provide answers \) ketil albertsen 's great read article edit personal , save george gruschow death yfn ysu edu ggruscho nyx cs du edu
ggruscho nyx cs du edu \( george gruschow \) subject disks copy protected organization university denver , dept math comp sci lines 50 schaefer imag imag fr \( arno schaefer \) writes article 1993apr21 lumina edb tih , ketil edb tih \( ketil albertsen , tih \) writes article 1993apr20 230749 12821 reed edu , mblock reed edu \( matt block \) writes guess saying question difficult , impossible , answer exactly want know \? need good one project working \? secure must \? trying crack one someone else used \? probably make suggestions , assuming activity strictly legal \( general , bad idea , legally , tamper copy protection also lead corruption files necessarily back ups \( copy protected , \) devestating \) absolutely ideas practical applications , merely curious \? please clear questions , 'll try help much may interpret offer volunteer editor copy protection faq \? quite sure alone welcoming initiative ! volunteer ask questions , provide answers \) ketil albertsen hey , stop encouraging \? copy protection serves one pur pose keep honest buyer making \( legal \) backup copies definitely stop pirates want protect soft , supply good documentation support imho way effectively pro software best regards , arno arno schaefer , 2e email schaefer silene imag fr tel \( 33 \) 76 51 79 95 \) , 're paranoid world really get wrong never give update program much possible , low price upgrade registered users \( please make sure keep list registered numbers ! \) george gruschow death yfn ysu edu ggruscho nyx cs du edu
undergrad math uwaterloo ca \( steve w \) subject cross compilers assemblers \( shareware \? \) organization university waterloo distribution lines 7 anyone point cross compiler assembler motorola , hosted pc compatible preferable free shareware also anyone know gnu cc port chip thanks advance
jsc nasa gov \( \) subject wanted scope reply jsc nasa gov organization nasa jsc lines 2 looking 20 40 mhz scope , good condition please email call \( 713 \) 280
wb9omc dynamo ecn purdue edu \( duane p mantick \) subject ir detector 'cards' \? \? \? keywords ir card organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 26 yoyo cc monash edu au \( sebastian \) writes think avaliable states even england , alas live australia could someone please inform get things , \? \? \? much \? \? \? also really commonly avaliable states , , much sells \( maybe cant get one , 'll write one companies seas \) anyway thanks advance sab 93 got mine 7 bucks radio shack instructions say expose light , mine n't seem require much make work wish could get big sheet stuff , 12 x 12 reasonable price n't cheap , 've seen duane
wb9omc dynamo ecn purdue edu \( duane p mantick \) subject long distance ir detection organization purdue university engineering computer network distribution na lines 25 jvannes vms macc wisc edu writes probably referring products opto diode corp 750 mitchell road newbury park ca 805 499 make amazing irled 's really high powered devices arrays 3 , 6 , 9 , led 's 66 header 9 chip model puts 6 5 watts response 5 amp , 10 us pulse 5 duty cycle think designed ir vision systems yeah ! 's guys ! would also interested application work dance technology program , want build something track dancers 30 foot wide stage 50 feet away yeah , sounds lot like anyway \) duane
dana lando la locus com \( dana h myers \) subject lead acid batteries concrete \? organization locus computing corporation , los angeles , california lines 25 article 1993apr21 204556 21262 cronkite ocis temple edu camter28 astro ocis temple edu \( carter ames \) writes wondering one thing , actually two \( hope proper place post subject \) oh , yeah fine place n't concrete kill lead acid batteries thread least six months lead acid battery discharge become dead \( totally unuseable \) stored concrete floor \? concrete simply sucks electrons battery ground another explanation , implausible , lead acid battery needs periodically charged \( topped \) , otherwise battery self discharges undergoes irreversible chemical reaction concrete sucks life dana h myers views expressed \( 310 \) 337 5136 mine necessarily dana locus com dod 466 reflect employer extra supports abolition 13 20 tests
wb9omc dynamo ecn purdue edu \( duane p mantick \) subject ir remote control receiver organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 20 ritterbus001 wcsub ctstateu edu writes want buy one , try radio shack , else tv repair shop probably order one btw carrier frequency 40 khz , different tv vcr cable box stereo manufacturer uses unique pulse scheme perform different function equipment tv 's , including rca set home , uses simple carriers think run 32 36 38 khz tone decoding one piss thing \) hook irled variable oscillator tune kinds havoc \) similarly , vcr remote changes channels cable box always seems change cable box channel 5 pause play soooo , things overlap duane
nyx cs du edu \( einstein \) subject need access reports hall effect devices keywords hall organization university denver , dept math comp sci lines 9 anyone know whereabouts technical reports access via internet \? \( \( \) \) \( \( \( \( \) \) \) \( \) \( \(
wally auspex com \( wally bass \) subject disks copy protected organization auspex systems , santa clara lines 22 nntp posting host 144 48 13 2 article sehari 213 cc iastate edu sehari iastate edu \( babak sehari \) writes stuff deleted also , low price afford people make many copy software well , guess say upto 20 copying ok clear mind goal two possible goals \( 1 \) maximizing income program , \( 2 \) minimizing number illegal copies get created accomplishing \( 2 \) n't usually accomplish \( 1 \) vendors concluded copy protection reduces number normal legitimate sales far increase sales virtue changing , hence merely reduces revenue legitimate buyers nowadays \( including \) bad experiences copy protected products \( e g , hard make legitimate backup , new system system upgrade , etc \) , wo n't touch ten foot pole wally bass
cab col hp com \( chris best \) subject ir detector 'cards' \? \? \? organization service lines 7 nntp posting host hpctdkz col hp com also really commonly avaliable states , , much sells \( maybe cant get one , 'll write one companies seas \) radio shack , part 276 099 , infrared sensor card , us 5 95
comm mot com \( jack \) subject radio freq used measure distance \? organization motorola , mobile data division seattle , wa lines 65 article otter hpl hp com otter hpl hp com \( tom gardner \) writes sci electronics , rgc3679 bcstec ca boeing com \( robert g carpenter \) writes i'm wondering 's possible use radio waves measure distance transmitter \( \) receiver \? yes 's called radar well , actually quite radar radio measure distances measuring time required transmit signal , receive reflection target radar generally uses pulses , radio use either pulses modulated continuous wave transmission case latter , highly accurate distance measurement made example , original ala 52 radio altimeter accurate 1 8 foot 2500 feet altitude note , however different method measuring poster originally asked problem gaining accurate measurements transmitter seperate receiver need highly accurate time base starts receiver exact instant transmitter triggers cannot wire connected , since radio waves actually travel faster free space \( air , case \) wire \( difference called velocity factor cable \) need resort common automatically corrected distance , etc something like pll connected gps receiver trick , triggering transmitter receiver simultaneously sound expensive \? bad , plan spending bucks equipment effort go different method \? use laser light system reflection time measured try \? \( sounds like something p e know anyway \) seems able measure signal strength determine distance would short distances \( 2000 ft \) , would need accuracy 6 inches , actually highly inaccurate , since power output transmitter varies unit unit , antenna transmission line , receiver may also vary , unit unit , unit time would need continuously calibrate entire system radio altimeter also done , since everything located one place , much easier note especially time base r receiver transmitter one unit also depends environment static yes , dynamic environment \( objects moving \) kills concept nope fm capture effect says strongest signal wins , unless two interfering signals seperated 3 db signal strength one problem makes inaccurate low altitudes signals bouncing tend strong frequencies would best \? matter \? high possible eliminate outside influence , also enhance signals radio typically use frequencies around 4 ghz hope helps jack ham radio internet comm mot com
goofy cs unlv edu \( david \) subject test reply goofy cs unlv edu \( david \) organization unlv computer science electrical engineering lines 2 test see works
koberg spot colorado edu \( allen koberg \) subject packet radio pc nntp posting host spot colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 6 i'm looking information regarding packet radio implementation pc software , hardware , whatever please e mail info koberg spot colorado edu thanks
cfb fc hp com \( charlie brett \) subject hi volt battery nntp posting host hpfcmgw fc hp com organization hewlett packard fort collins site x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 5 lines 7 might want get flash camera , shoot roll film , take apart \( 're snapped together \) used bunch wedding , instead sending whole camera , took film \( 's standard 35mm canister \) , kept batteries \( use one aa battery \) sorry , n't keep flash electronics charlie brett ft collins , co
msunde01 mik uky edu \( mark underwood \) subject floopy drives update ! nntp posting host mik uky edu reply msunde01 mik uky edu organization university kentucky , dept math sciences lines 19 article clover csv warwick ac uk csulo csv warwick ac uk \( mr j brown \) writes hopefully sort bad 9 quid \( normally pardon ignorance foreign currency exchange rates , quid , relate british pound \( whatever 's called \) american dollars \? \? \? \) thanks ! mark underwood ee student , university kentucky lab assistant , boyd hall microlab \( tiny little division uk library microlabs \) e mail msunde01 mik uky edu
subject help phone wire ones tip ring \? mlevin husc8 harvard edu \( michael levin \) distribution usa organization harvard university science center nntp posting host husc8 harvard edu lines 11 bought little gizmo supposed installed series tip ring lines phone wire ones \? suppose holding regular phone wire , little plastic tooth \( little plastic square thing naked lead ends plug phone \) facing , away 4 wires see tip ring \? please reply mlevin husc8 harvard edu mike levin
cyborg kauri vuw ac nz \( alex \) subject disks copy protected article st james organization victoria university wellington lines 31 nntp posting host kauri vuw ac nz article mchen terra cs psu edu mchen terra cs psu edu \( michael chen \) writes companies compressed executables lzw kind encryption process , change two bytes thing would go right window entirely true friend mine trouble finishing game gods asked help since could find trainer \( small patch lets play without losing lifes \) game compressed find one byte changed original compressed file would affect decompression would also prevent shield game turning therefore making invincible many progs whose copy protection defeated one way another seen examples eyes copy protection schemes defeated various using protected mode , compressed executables , progs load execute progs \( possibly compressed \) , , key disks , etc believe persistence overcomes even best copy protection schemes michael chen depths lucid horrors spring fond hopes pure desires mchen cs psu edu except comes hell ! \) 7 23 92 alex cyborg kauri vuw ac nz external user victoria university wellington new zealand speak one else
cco caltech edu \( douglas wong \) subject silicon storage inc organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 5 nntp posting host alumni caltech edu would appreciate much address phone company make analog thanks advance doug
srgxnbs grace cri nz subject cad program electronics \? organization industrial research ltd , new zealand lines 10 nntp posting host grv grace cri nz want cad program draw diagrams dragging elements onto screen , elements needed diverse vacuum tubes ics \( case pins \) try , windows shareware object oriented use high quality output bruce
prism gatech edu \( , joel phillip \) subject help , i'm clever ! \( make power supply \? \) keywords power supply article hydra organization georgia institute technology lines 17 need make power supply take input cigarette lighter car \( 12v dc \) drive 7 5 volts 3 0 amps know enough know simple voltage divider two resistors wo n't right thing made radio shack able parts without much difficulty \? jps bf p 've looked things like radio shack none seems go higher joel north avenue trade school , dept round things prism gatech edu \( ask scooter technologies , receive \)
msunde01 mik uky edu \( mark underwood \) subject disks copy protected article ms reply msunde01 mik uky edu organization university kentucky , dept math sciences lines 155 nntp posting host mik uky edu article 1993apr22 163605 24784 csus edu kschang sfsuvax1 sfsu edu \( kuo sheng \( kasey \) chang \) writes several types copy protection , point make sure user using legitimate copy simplest virtually fool proof way program somehow fixate machine installed \( sort checksum , serial number , whatever \) copy put different machine \( installed original disks \) work okay , part machine \( presumably part code number whatever program upon goes bad , replace part , program wo n't run 's different computer \? \? \? , course , assuming program uses something rom \( like bios serial number , maybe \? \) disk based code number obviously drive goes bad 'll reinstalling stuff anyway work computer lab part university microlab system wonderfully fun task maintaining well hundred machines , pc macintosh , well administering network 50 next machines personally concerned small lab ten pc 's ten mac 's \( i'm manager , help admin often \) imho , copy protection schemes sort nothing major headache legitimate user anyone wants copy program n't care legality get copy period pirate board pirate board friends blatantly quite hack copy protection schemes practically sleep let 's consider goes lab almost daily least one machine , sometimes several , due screwing setting piece software admittedly , \( students , mostly \) world 's efficient effective network administrators , try keeping even twenty machines \( partly \) responsibility even vaguely looking acting similar average user , maintaining behind scenes consistency real headache , bad headache trying remember twenty different folder locations norton utilities guy disk often hardware problems peak business times parts swapping get stuff working temporarily well , 'll cut chase quit boring y'all point , often install software copy configuration files etc machine machine far easiest way found get one machine working exactly way want , copy complete setup machine nine \( machine 's type \) ensures us \( least ten minutes \) ten identical machines work networked simplifies considerably , major packages \( wordperfect , windows , etc \) network versions thus one copy mess often , however , need install package requested instructor one , , machines special project usually hand written shareware , etc program similar believe original poster asking copy protection schemes caused nothing nightmares us maintain short , n't waste time copy protection scheme 's sort like outlawing guns criminals get program anyway , hurting legitimate , honest user write good user 's guide tech manual , whatever else program \( please regardless whether copy protect thing ! ! ! \) , distribute manual licensed users jack price cut losses , please take cue major companies \( admittedly afford costs illegal copies far better \) n't burden legitimate user copy protection scheme ! sorry tirade , 's long day \) mark underwood ee student , university kentucky lab assistant , boyd hall microlab \( tiny little division uk library microlabs \) e mail msunde01 mik uky edu program definitely , restored machine \( depends programmer n't use disk drive characteristic ! \) user upgrade machine , reinstall programs way document look , disk wear tear ! say originals would allow one install user 's conscience know , 'll get flamed increasing number casual users either unknowingly n't care software copyrights \( 's truth friends ask copies latest games time , refused , went somebody else \) , casual pirating becoming problem sort copy protection discourage casual copying 've seen friends dug somewhere latest greatest games , cracked , within days actual release ! know many bytes need change x wing disable quiz \? two ! yes , two ! \( n't ask ones \) determined pirates unstoppable , given enough time , results spread far , since pirate boards well known , easily tracked found authorities casual pirates copy protection determined discourage believe companies implement plus special patch user registers loudly exclaims upon bootup registered xxxxx address , city , state zip disables two benefits 1 \) encourages registration , 2 \) cuts pirating makes traceable , patch 's registration message encrypted , quite hard change , therefore provides stable trail allowed copy hands , thus violated license agreement way , legitimate users register experience minimal discomfort \( major upgrades computer frequently \? \) problem wo n't able restore another computer registered users would proven users therefore gains full rights , restore different machines hand , software company record particular copy supposed user 's copy found somewhere supposed , know broken license agreement course , hacker break eventually , 's point , \? kasey chang
cck coventry ac uk \( graham wilson \) subject laser vs bubblejet \? nntp posting host cc sysk organization department law coventry university , coventry , uk lines 25 article 1993apr21 news columbia edu cunixa cc columbia edu \( kimball ng \) writes kolstad cae wisc edu \( joel kolstad \) writes one thing bubblejets , bubblejets bubblejets produce rather mediocre output \( hp 's little bubblejet \) , whereas produce really good looking output \( hp 's deskjets \) ibm canon produce really good style bubblejets considering either inkjet bubble jet printer 've seen inkjet printers impressed near lazer quality heard lot bad things cheaper bubble jet printers ink smudge easily take long time dry \? thanks 3 4 c2 l1 \( \) w c e g f k m1 graham wilson cck coventry ac uk b law iii coventry university s8 b g l z n x u v j
cohen gomez phys virginia edu subject mov advice please \? reply cohen gomez phys virginia edu organization dept physics , university virginia lines 18 hello , somebody tell kind mov 's useful computer surge protector \? radio shack 2 types , rated , one 10a current hand , commercial surge protectors seen claim voltage , seems imply rated voltage \( sqrt \( 2 \) 353 \) right kind \? , ow important really emi rfi module \? really noticable level noise power line \? please e mail , group much volume able follow thanks !
cirrus com \( tom crawford \) subject old 256k simms \? distribution usa organization cirrus logic inc lines 18 master cs rose hulman edu nextwork rose hulman edu \( f hensley \) writes article 120466 netnews upenn edu jhaines eniac seas upenn edu \( jason haines \) writes wondering people good uses old 256k simms bunch apple mac know lots people tried sell gotten interest , inovative use \( want buy simms 8 \) \) sure 'll give 10 bucks think really neat put onto key rings somebody makes mistake asking , totally geek tc
wilkes edu \( martin k \) subject tunnel diodes g spice article organization utexas mail news gateway lines 5 nntp posting host cs utexas edu anybody idea model tunnel diode spice \? thank martin wilkes edu
msunde01 mik uky edu \( mark underwood \) subject power , signal surges home article ms reply msunde01 mik uky edu organization university kentucky , dept math sciences lines 27 nntp posting host mik uky edu article 1993apr21 porthos cc bellcore com patter dasher cc bellcore com \( patterson , george r \) writes article 1993apr20 24632 mprgate mpr ca vanderby mprgate mpr ca \( david vanderbyl \) writes kludge grissom larc nasa gov \( scott dorsey \) writes car , unfortunately , much computer junk hood 's astonishingly sensitive rfi hmmmmm possibilities police pursuit vehicle , maybe bombard high energy rfi \) right cops buying antique muscle cars chase cars otherwise police cars die ! wonder could focus rfi gun cops would n't problem \? \? \? mark underwood ee student , university kentucky lab assistant , boyd hall microlab \( tiny little division uk library microlabs \) e mail msunde01 mik uky edu
msunde01 mik uky edu \( mark underwood \) subject radar detector detectors \? article ms reply msunde01 mik uky edu organization university kentucky , dept math sciences lines 27 nntp posting host mik uky edu article athena cs uga edu mcovingt aisun1 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) writes microwave tower next florida 's turnpike , could watch cars hit breaks came sight every morning funny detector owning friends , generally able remember things nearby microwave towers radar detectors going exactly every day know 64 grayson , ky exit , 's store side road \( think 's liquor store \) must security system would make federal prisons proud 's thing 've ever driven \( besides cop \) puts oh god 's right behind ! ! ! ! mode simply ignore detector use eyes drive store 40 seconds later , 's quiet front problem \) \) mark underwood ee student , university kentucky lab assistant , boyd hall microlab \( tiny little division uk library microlabs \) e mail msunde01 mik uky edu
noeler xanth cs orst edu \( eric richard noel \) subject disks copy protected article flop 1r76sbinnkap organization oregon state university lines 28 nntp posting host xanth cs orst edu hey , stop encouraging \? copy protection serves one pur pose keep honest buyer making \( legal \) backup copies definitely stop pirates want protect soft , supply good documentation support imho way effectively pro software best regards , arno strongly disagree think pirating done amateurs , wo n't copy program diskcopy ca n't 're talking 20 max goal pirated copies , bet anything beat diskcopy , ca n't easily copied hard drive , suffice hate hard copy manuals , would rather docs online want copy program , usually faster convenient sifting old book ca n't find deeper end everyone think need able make backup copy \? almost new software must installed hard disk , left originals backups think waste time , space , money , well makes tempting lend backups flames intended thoughts eric
cck coventry ac uk \( graham wilson \) subject contracts nntp posting host cc sysk organization department law coventry university , coventry , uk lines 22 computer law module asked write computer contract supply computer software business software especially written company would anyone , per chance happen copy computer contract system could mail anyone computer contract contains sensitive material assure remain confidential pass , allow anyone else view thanks 3 4 c2 l1 \( \) w c e g f k m1 graham wilson cck coventry ac uk b law iii coventry university s8 b g l z n x u v j
cph dmu ac uk \( chris hand \) subject lead acid batteries concrete \? organization de montfort university , leicester , uk x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 24 carter ames \( camter28 astro ocis temple edu \) wrote lead acid battery discharge become dead \( totally unuseable \) stored concrete floor \? could stored somewhere could become covered moisture damp air , would short terminals thing happens car \( citroen \) damp gets \( us hood \) shorts spark plugs earth wo n't start solution \( car \) clean plug leads spray wd 40 \( moisture repellant \) damp problem , storing battery ground may help i'm sure spraying wd 40 would safe since flammable \( high percentage petroleum \) thought chris chris hand , lecturer internet mail cph dmu ac uk dept computing science , voice 44 533 de montfort university , gateway , fax 44 533 fidonet 2 440 32 50 leicester , uk le1 linux free unix ibm pcs !
rdell cbnewsf cb att com \( richard b dell \) subject lead acid batteries concrete \? organization distribution na lines 31 article 1993apr21 204556 21262 cronkite ocis temple edu camter28 astro ocis temple edu \( carter ames \) writes wondering one thing , actually two \( hope proper place post subject \) lead acid battery discharge become dead \( totally unuseable \) stored concrete floor \? decided bring battery lawn mower motorcycle unheated garage year , preserve went use noticed work , act like two terminals shorted asked friend said never , 'cause ruins , could n't tell thanks camter28 astro ocis temple edu battery expert , recent reading , lead acid battery self discharge relatively high rate , stored discharged state , develop condition think called storage , either electrolyte removed replaced use \( fat chance 'd ever home \) , battery stored trickle charge also \( think \) read condition may reversable hooked current limited charging circuit fro long period time remember use c 50 \( c amp hours \) charging circuit , leave hooked weeks may apply gel type cells , suspect applies liquid type richard dell
rdell cbnewsf cb att com \( richard b dell \) subject question 120vac outlet wiring organization distribution na lines 21 article 1993apr22 mtu edu cmwolf mtu edu \( engineer day asleep night \) writes dave \( dave imax imax com \) wrote require two separate grounds one ground goes ground pin outlet , ground wire connected outlet 's mounting tabs \( thus grounds box faceplate screw metal faceplate , \) thought ground connected metal frame socket christopher wolf electrical engineer cmwolf mtu edu remember , even win rat race 're still rat isolated ground \( usually unusual color , orange yellow \) often used low noise , low leakage applications , mentioned earlier thread richard dell
regmad gsusgi2 gsu edu \( michael de kraker \) subject packet radio pc article gsusgi1 regmad organization georgia state university lines 21 koberg spot colorado edu \( allen koberg \) writes i'm looking information regarding packet radio implementation pc software , hardware , whatever please e mail info koberg spot colorado edu thanks try rec radio packet michael de kraker georgia state university 404 651 internet regmad gsusgi2 gsu edu bitnet regmad packet iterate human , devine
jimc tau ceti isc br com \( jim cathey \) subject uart needed \( really break detect \) organization olivetti north america , spokane , wa lines 41 article alan 17 129 12 26 alan apple com \( alan mimms \) writes actually detecting break done watching character containing zero bits framing error resulting receipt true enough , means line stayed zero bit state even past stop bit time slot , basically indicates break special way detect break found 's magic signal generated uarts , etc 7 break detect popular part , number quirks , especially mode signetics rsr 2 break start detect rsr 3 break end detect two bits receiver status register enable interrupt either bits going high , also , one null put fifo per break detected simply best serial chip 've ever worked many less quirks , imho second best \( death 8250 devices ! \) ! ii ! jim cathey ! ii ! isc bunker ! ii cc ! taf c8 spokane , wa ! cc ! uucp uunet ! isc br ! jimc \( jimc isc br isc br com \) ! ii ! \( 509 \) 927 one design rule one design find one design bring darkness bind land mediocrity pc 's lie
ifarqhar laurel ocs mq edu au \( ian farquhar \) subject atari 2600 processors organization macquarie university , sydney australia lines 47 nntp posting host laurel ocs mq edu au article 1993apr21 599 das harvard edu squish endor uucp \( shishin yamada \) writes atari 2600 used 6502 cpu , like entire 8 bit line \( 400 , 800 , 1200 , 1400 , 1440 , 130xe , computers , well 5200 game machine \) wrong , 6507 2600 extra asic chips basically modified graphics chips pia 's joysticks one chip \( asic sense word understood \) tia \( sometimes known 6526 , although manufacturers list cia complex interface adapter \) tia stands television interface adapter , handles sound , paddles minimal video hardware 2600 possessed also standard ram , , timer \( riot \) , plus voltage regulator \( memory serves \) 555 timer 's later model 2600 might incorporated many chips one , weight machines part count decreased lot years according servicing documentation 2600 change much additionally , think 2600 used 2k , 4k , 8k rom games roms mapped upper 4k 6507 's address space 2k 4k games fine , later 8k 16k games needed bank switching atari \( others \) made much huge cartridges idea much ram work , would hazard guess 2 4k ram wrong , 128 bytes ram riot multiply mapped page 0 \( pseudo registers \) page 1 \( stack \) , also throughout bottom 4k memory tia registers also sat address space 128 bytes ram somewhat limiting , later cartridges also carried ram , interesting atari provided write line cart managed mapping reads ram one address range , writes another , time scheme ate scarce rom address space ian
mmm cup portal com \( mark robert thorson \) subject making odd resistor values required filters organization portal system \( tm \) lines 3 one way make cheap resistors use high wattage carbon composition resistor , saw notch file course , increase resistance , decrease
tartarus uwa edu au \( andrew scott \) subject disks copy protected organization university western australia lines 21 nntp posting host tartarus uwa edu au x newsreader nn version 6 4 19 1 cyborg kauri vuw ac nz \( alex \) writes believe persistence overcomes even best copy protection schemes would expect cd rom software would even need copy protection program cd rom would fit onto hard drive , impossible average \( even average \) user write cd rom , copies software \( still work \) could never made hmmm think creative tsr , maybe disk swapping could used simulate files single disk would need disks though alex cyborg kauri vuw ac nz external user victoria university wellington new zealand speak one else andrew scott internet tartarus uwa edu au
mmm cup portal com \( mark robert thorson \) subject building uv flashlight article cup organization portal system \( tm \) lines 7 simplest cheapest soft uv bulb ar 1 argon bulb \( argon bulb \) works like neon bulb except purple cause stuff requires little power , battery , oscillator , step transformer 100 volts electronic \( 602 \) 451 several uv lamps , pre built units kits ask catalog
clewis ferret ocunix ca \( chris lewis \) subject power , signal surges home article organization elegant communications inc , ottawa , canada lines 36 article rave larc nasa gov kludge grissom larc nasa gov \( scott dorsey \) writes article drand spinner osf org drand spinner osf org \( douglas rand \) writes article randall woof randall informix com \( randall rhea \) writes hams legally run 1500 watts unlikely , however , ham would running kind power car ham rigs possible either 'd need 300 amp alternator amplifier see need slow downgrade , hit push talk button , indeed possible good friend mine running 1 kw pep car yes , second alternator yes , calls rig electronic brake since engine noticeably slows key since knew electronics ham radio , seem remember pep actually 4x real power makes pep actually around 2x \? effective transmitted power also odd , takes account antenna height geometry tv station might advertise \( antenna top cn tower \) like sears hp \) though , 1500 real watts still n't impossible 125 150a 12v alternator , less alternator produces higher voltages 's three horsepower \( taking account \) 'll feel hit key much chris lewis clewis ferret ocunix ca phone canada 613 832 psroff 3 0 info psroff request ferret ocunix ca ferret list ferret request ferret ocunix ca
cs sunysb edu \( caleb \) subject long distance ir detection organization suny stony brook computer science dept lines 17 distribution na nntp posting host ic sunysb edu reply jvannes vms macc wisc edu 's message 22 apr 93 00 56 17 article 1993apr22 macc wisc edu jvannes vms macc wisc edu writes would also interested application work dance technology program , want build something track dancers 30 foot wide stage 50 feet away could make interesting light sound could controlled directly position dancer stage , number dancers stage neat could even build spotlight follows dancer around stage ! tell us 're \? sounds like cool program caleb ic sunysb edu
truemner mac truemner rd hydro ca \( gary truemner \) subject help high data link organization ontario hydro , toronto , canada lines 16 couple applications high speed data links 1 replacement ultrasonic signal coaxial cables fiber optic cable 2 applying fiber optic slip ring 16 channel inspection system reactor inspection 3 remote data link ultrasonic pipeline inspection device including transfer 16 channels via microwave higher speed transfer ultrasonic data remote inspection head would happy share sources info acquired please mail post long term upgrade next years thanks truemner mac truemner rd hydro ca ontario hydro automated welding r \( 416 \) 207 fax 237 toronto canada
butts ee twsu edu \( ronald w butts super acct \) subject need find numb organization electrical engr dept , wichita state univ x posted ces 3 ee twsu edu nntp posting host sol ctr columbia edu lines 35 article 442 uupcb ozonehole com gerald belton ozonehole com \( gerald belton \) writes subject need find numb date 20 apr 93 12 18 00 gmt al number call return synthesized al voice telling number line unfortunately , al life ca n't remember telephone technicians al use time used play around al dorm rooms since multiple phone lines running al rooms probably would n't help post number , since appears different area 's worth , new orleans area number 998 877 6655 \( easy remember , \? \) slmr 2 1 ask anything n't know , 'll make something city , dialing either 940 \( newer exchanges \) 940 sic get synthesized message works great people call back pay phones regards , bill ronald w \( bill \) butts , jr gentlemen ! gentlemen ! electrical engineering department ca n't fight wichita state university war room ! butts ee twsu edu
msunde01 mik uky edu \( mark underwood \) subject disks copy protected article ms reply msunde01 mik uky edu organization university kentucky , dept math sciences lines 60 nntp posting host mik uky edu article 1r76sbinnkap flop engr orst edu noeler xanth cs orst edu \( eric richard noel \) writes hate hard copy manuals , would rather docs online want copy program , usually faster convenient sifting old book ca n't find mho , prefer hardcopy books three four open spread across bed \( next desk dorm \) reference using program full screen windows help things come closest good line documentation 've seen , generally n't detailed enough would probably take large amount space \( even compressed \) premium system fact , manuals primary reason bought borland 's c compiler instead using one lab licensed \( lab , course \) 've got shelf full books help i'm stuck \) \) deeper end everyone think need able make backup copy \? almost new software must installed hard disk , left originals backups think waste time , space , money , well makes tempting lend backups 've destroyed six sets original microsoft word mac 5 0 word windows \( may bad batch disks \) n't idea happened , went bad n't stored near magnetic fields otherwise mistreated , indeed used given , massive headaches finding working set disks fix machines periodically go , 'd say working backups sure wish 'd \( sometimes think murphy 's law holds true often newton 's ! ! \) needed think 's like snake 99 995 time absolutely use , need , boy ever need ! n't backups originals home machine n't see anywhere near use abuse lab , consider less risk still , usually make working copies install eventually use working copies something else flames intended thoughts mine , ! \) btw , anyone notices mentioning copying programs machine machine installs wonders licensing , upper management \( non student staff , course \) meticulous checking providers software making sure sticking license agreements mark underwood ee student , university kentucky lab assistant , boyd hall microlab \( tiny little division uk library microlabs \) e mail msunde01 mik uky edu
acollins uclink berkeley edu \( andy collins \) subject packet radio pc article agate organization university california , berkeley lines 25 nntp posting host uclink berkeley edu article regmad gsusgi1 gsu edu regmad gsusgi2 gsu edu \( michael de kraker \) writes koberg spot colorado edu \( allen koberg \) writes i'm looking information regarding packet radio implementation pc software , hardware , whatever michael de kraker question packet radio deleted georgia state university 404 651 rec radio amateur packet \? least site , general packet radio \( e non amateur \) newsgroup said , would definately subscribe r r packet want learn aspects amateur packet radio , high low ends also , would get faq group , post specific questions group everything could tell probably faq , people really know 's going seem r r packet \( although might , never know \) hope helps andy collins , acollins uclink berkeley edu
mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) subject radio electronics free information card nntp posting host aisun3 ai uga edu organization ai programs , university georgia , athens lines 18 article i5 acsu buffalo edu v064mb9k ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( neil b gandler \) writes radio electronics free information cards work send general information companies advertise magazine also give sign catalog radio electronics sends company bunch computer printed address labels people circled company 's number company sends whatever wants normally catalog michael covington , associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu university georgia phone 706 542 0358 athens , georgia 30602 7415 u amateur radio n4tmi
mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) subject lead acid batteries concrete \? nntp posting host aisun3 ai uga edu organization ai programs , university georgia , athens lines 24 article 1993apr21 204556 21262 cronkite ocis temple edu camter28 astro ocis temple edu \( carter ames \) writes lead acid battery discharge become dead \( totally unuseable \) stored concrete floor \? decided bring battery lawn mower motorcycle unheated garage year , preserve went use noticed work , act like two terminals shorted asked friend said never , 'cause ruins , could n't tell topic beaten death year ago concrete problem lead acid batteries often fail disuse \( charged long time \) , 's way concrete floor could cause problem michael covington , associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu university georgia phone 706 542 0358 athens , georgia 30602 7415 u amateur radio n4tmi
rcstage1 urc tue nl \( guido klemans \) subject disks copy protected organization eindhoven university technology lines 23 nntp posting host urc tue nl article uniwa uwa edu au tartarus uwa edu au \( andrew scott \) writes would expect cd rom software would even need copy protection program cd rom would fit onto hard drive , impossible average \( even average \) user write cd rom , copies software \( still work \) could never made hmmm think creative tsr , maybe disk swapping could used simulate files single disk would need disks though many programs cd rom fit harddisk , software big \( 're getting \) \) guido klemans internet rcstage1 urc tue nl valid 16 may 1993 carefully , say ones ' michelle
john gu uwa edu au \( john west \) subject atari 2600 processors organization university western australia lines 54 nntp posting host mackerel gu uwa edu au ifarqhar laurel ocs mq edu au \( ian farquhar \) writes article 1993apr21 599 das harvard edu squish endor uucp \( shishin yamada \) writes atari 2600 used 6502 cpu , like entire 8 bit line \( 400 , 800 , 1200 , 1400 , 1440 , 130xe , computers , well 5200 game machine \) wrong , 6507 would like know , 6507 6502 without irq nmi , 13 address lines \( giving 8k memory space \) one chip \( asic sense word understood \) tia \( sometimes known 6526 , although manufacturers list cia complex interface adapter \) tia stands television interface adapter , handles sound , paddles minimal video hardware 2600 possessed n't know called 6526 thats cia found commodore 64 \( n't believe chip existed 2600 around \) tia mapped bottom 128 bytes page 0 , shadowed bottom 128 bytes page 1 get image screen , wait raster line picture started , load bitmaps line registers , tell x positions take , many duplicates wanted , etc , next line took processor 's time visible portion display also standard ram , , timer \( riot \) , plus voltage regulator \( memory serves \) 555 timer 's ram mapped top 128 bytes page 0 , shadowed page 1 6502 zero page addressing mode instructions shorter faster normal ones , important machine like ram page 0 unfortunately , also wants stack page 1 \( stack pointer 8 bits , high byte address hardwired 1 \) section mapped page 2 somewhere 2 8 bit registers \( ca n't remember bit could independantly set like 6526 \) , 1 \( \? \) 8 \( \? \) bit timer programmable \( think power 2 \) interrupts system , many games would set timer known time , go away something else , sit wait timer run logic box address decoding riot least 2 chip select pins \( probably one active high , one active low \) , imagine tia much various address lines fed directly chip selects 6507 likes rom right top memory , 2600 use roms active high chip selects exactly normal , 7404 convert usual active low chip select john west
rcstage1 urc tue nl \( guido klemans \) subject disks copy protected organization eindhoven university technology lines 34 nntp posting host urc tue nl article 1993apr22 163605 24784 csus edu kschang sfsuvax1 sfsu edu \( kuo sheng \( kasey \) chang \) writes believe companies implement plus special patch user registers loudly exclaims upon bootup registered xxxxx address , city , state zip disables two benefits 1 \) encourages registration , 2 \) cuts pirating makes traceable , patch 's registration message encrypted , quite hard change , therefore provides stable trail allowed copy hands , thus violated license agreement take two copies different registration id , compare byte byte know located usually able find keeps form registering john doe company public domain , yellow brick road 1 , something \? \? \? kasey chang guido klemans internet rcstage1 urc tue nl valid 16 may 1993 carefully , say ones ' michelle
sl nessie mcc ac uk \( stuart lea \) subject anyone build anything interesting devices \? organization manchester computing centre lines 16 've started programming 'd like talk similar like minded people \? built anything interesting , , 'd interested talking various aspects yes , already application sheets , assembler simulator cheers , stuart stuart lea tel 200 fax 200 4019 umist university janet sl uk ac mcc nessie , main bldg , po box 88 internet sl nessie mcc ac uk manchester , uk m60 weather , wish beautiful
cunixa cc columbia edu \( wayne sun \) subject looking decoder module keywords ntsc close caption decoder nntp posting host cunixa cc columbia edu reply cunixa cc columbia edu \( wayne sun \) organization columbia university lines 12 one know get decoder module \? need build close caption decoder thanks wayne till finals , fun really begins ' sun still young ' one dreams home town , wishing everything could , wishes still young enjoy '
cmh eng cam ac uk \( c hicks \) subject making odd resistor values required filters nntp posting host club eng cam ac uk organization cam eng lines 26 nessie mcc ac uk \( ian hawkins \) writes constructing active filters , odd values resistor often required \( e something like 3 14 k ohm resistor \) \( seems best choose common capacitor values cope strange resistances demanded \) pd program work best make resistance , given fixed resistors standard 12 values per decade \? \( 1 , 1 2 , 1 5 , 1 8 , 2 2 , 3 3 etc \) common enough problem , yet cant recall program tells rx ry rz gives rq , starting q finding prefered values x , z wrote program \( bbc basic \) crude , took around 5 seconds exhaustive search \( small amount intelligence \) , told best combination rq best rq want write one , store prefered values array , search solution space using three loops i'm sure could knock hour christopher christopher hicks paradise linear gaussian world cmh uk ac cam eng \( also reported taste hot sweaty \)
kuusama kaarne cs tut fi \( kuusama juha , , , vtt , \) subject circuit boards green \? originator kuusama kaarne cs tut fi nntp posting host kaarne cs tut fi reply kuusama kaarne cs tut fi organization tampere university technology , dep computer science lines 7 question anything important , still curious almost printed circuit boards green \? seen blue ones , red , yellow , company logo etc technical reason could marketing geniuses tought \( yet \) \? juha
subject pcmcia martin vuille synapse org \( martin vuille \) distribution world organization synapse inc \( \) 246 lines 10 newsgroup sci electronics martin vuille synapse org subject pcmcia anyone know contact obtain copy pcmcia standard \? thanks mv olx 2 1 td , 04 22 93 9 34 pm
subject electronic design mag martin vuille synapse org \( martin vuille \) distribution world organization synapse inc \( \) 246 lines 10 newsgroup sci electronics martin vuille synapse org subject electronic design anyone know telephone number circulation department magazine \? mv olx 2 1 td , 04 22 93 9 35 pm
stephen inmos co uk \( stephen \) subject lead acid batteries concrete \? organization inmos limited , bristol , uk lines 40 article 1993apr22 dmu ac uk , cph dmu ac uk \( chris hand \) writes carter ames \( camter28 astro ocis temple edu \) wrote lead acid battery discharge become dead \( totally unuseable \) stored concrete floor \? think 's lead gets coated lead oxide battery charged discharged remember advice ancient car manual guide father , use car batteries power garage clock something similar 're car supposed prevent 've idea really works concrete floor connection red herring could stored somewhere could become covered moisture damp air , would short terminals may contribute discharging would reversible thing happens car \( citroen \) damp gets \( us hood \) shorts spark plugs earth wo n't start solution \( car \) clean plug leads spray wd 40 \( moisture repellant \) damp problem , storing well , topic , back days used drive bangers never found wd 40 anything wiping dry cloth think effectiveness wd 40 myth invented guy owns company battery ground may help i'm sure spraying wd 40 would safe since flammable \( high percentage petroleum \) thought chris steve
fr \( peter j hicks \) subject lead acid batteries concrete \? reply fr organization advanced computer research institute lines 42 article athena cs uga edu , mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) writes article 1993apr21 204556 21262 cronkite ocis temple edu camter28 astro ocis temple edu \( carter ames \) writes lead acid battery discharge become dead \( totally unuseable \) stored concrete floor \? decided bring battery lawn mower motorcycle unheated garage year , preserve went use noticed work , act like two terminals shorted asked friend said never , 'cause ruins , could n't tell topic beaten death year ago seems original question advice problem history lesson think question comes time time people get civil answer concrete problem lead acid batteries often fail disuse \( charged long time \) , 's way concrete floor could cause problem could anyone please explain happens battery cure get back life michael covington , associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu university georgia phone 706 542 0358 athens , georgia 30602 7415 u amateur radio n4tmi
ifarqhar laurel ocs mq edu au \( ian farquhar \) subject atari 2600 processors organization macquarie university , sydney australia lines 46 nntp posting host laurel ocs mq edu au article uniwa uwa edu au john gu uwa edu au \( john west \) writes ifarqhar laurel ocs mq edu au \( ian farquhar \) writes wrong , 6507 would like know , 6507 6502 without irq nmi , 13 address lines \( giving 8k memory space \) yes , still 6502 differences instruction set , course one custom chip \( asic sense word understood \) tia \( sometimes known 6526 , although manufacturers list cia complex interface adapter \) tia stands television interface adapter , handles sound , paddles minimal video hardware 2600 possessed n't know called 6526 thats cia found commodore 64 \( n't believe chip existed 2600 around \) yes , number , entirely different device qualified stating pal version tia 100 sure ntsc tia would different number tia mapped bottom 128 bytes page 0 , shadowed bottom 128 bytes page 1 get image screen , wait raster line picture started , load bitmaps line registers , tell x positions take , many duplicates wanted , etc , next line took processor 's time visible portion display anyone net actually details tia , device yet discovered details \? atari australia , asked , claimed attempts get programmers documentation 2600 failed , us head office refused provide chip selects 6507 likes rom right top memory , 2600 use roms active high chip selects exactly normal , 7404 convert usual active low chip select saw couple cheaper devices 's couple resistors hooked cheap inverter nasty , workable , cheaper 7404 inverter labor costs almost nothing ian
thor e kth se subject looking z80 sti \( \) nntp posting host elin e kth se reply thor e kth se organization kth , royal institute technology , school electrical engineering lines 27 hi , looking integrated circuits z80 based computer circuit called z80 sti \( serial timer interrupt \) , , made called sgs thompson today contact sgs thompson , unfortunately told z80 sti obsolete , question anyone know get hold circuits companies specialize selling circuits longer production \? contacted several electronic brokers sweden , without success would appreciate could give hint continue looking even companies united states would fine , since circuit pretty crucial thanks advance thomas thor royal institute technology stockholm , sweden
willisw willisw eng clemson edu \( bill willis \) subject help , i'm clever ! \( make power supply \? \) keywords power supply organization engineering services , clemson university lines 37 article hydra gatech edu prism gatech edu \( , joel phillip \) writes need make power supply take input cigarette lighter car \( 12v dc \) drive 7 5 volts 3 0 amps know enough know simple voltage divider two resistors wo n't right thing made radio shack able parts without much difficulty \? jps bf p 've looked things like radio shack none seems go higher joel north avenue trade school , dept round things prism gatech edu \( ask scooter technologies , receive \) see radio shack national semiconductor adjustable voltage regulator , \( national \) part number devices rated input output differential 35 volts 3 amps digi key corp parts , well several useful regulators n't catalog , phone number 1 800 344 guess may intend 7 5 vdc nicad battery device , i'm right , may want look books get various ideas battery charging circuits , first get stuck , e mail fax number , one , 'll send suggestions schematics e mail willisw coe nw clemson edu
rdell cbnewsf cb att com \( richard b dell \) subject disks copy protected organization lines 64 article ms uky edu msunde01 mik uky edu writes article 1r76sbinnkap flop engr orst edu noeler xanth cs orst edu \( eric richard noel \) writes hate hard copy manuals , would rather docs online want copy program , usually faster convenient sifting old book ca n't find mho , prefer hardcopy books three four open spread across bed \( next desk dorm \) reference using program full screen windows help things come closest good line documentation 've seen , generally n't detailed enough would probably take large amount space \( even compressed \) premium system fact , manuals primary reason bought borland 's c compiler instead using one lab licensed \( lab , course \) 've got shelf full books help i'm stuck \) \) agree 100 , personally cannot flip page page screen retain information easily written page deeper end everyone think need able make backup copy \? almost new software must installed hard disk , left originals backups think waste time , space , money , well makes tempting lend backups 've destroyed six sets original microsoft word mac 5 0 word windows \( may bad batch disks \) n't idea happened , went bad n't stored near magnetic fields otherwise mistreated , indeed used given , massive headaches finding working set disks fix machines periodically go , 'd say working backups sure wish 'd \( sometimes think murphy 's law holds true often newton 's ! ! \) needed think 's like snake 99 995 time absolutely use , need , boy ever need ! ditto 's fact work , things dead backup good , insist least 2 level backup system seems whenever 2 good backups , never need , n't , murphy guarantees 'll suffer n't backups originals home machine n't see anywhere near use abuse lab , consider less risk still , usually make working copies install eventually use working copies something else flames intended thoughts mine , ! \) mine course richard dell
sasrer unx sas com \( rodney radford \) subject wd 40 moisture repellant \( lead acid batteries concrete \? \) nntp posting host cinnamon unx sas com organization sas institute inc lines 31 stephen inmos co uk \( stephen \) writes thing happens car \( citroen \) damp gets \( us hood \) shorts spark plugs earth wo n't start solution \( car \) clean plug leads spray wd 40 \( moisture repellant \) damp problem , storing well , topic , back days used drive bangers never found wd 40 anything wiping dry cloth think effectiveness wd 40 myth invented guy owns company back high school used work detailing company , one services offered engine cleaning \( remove oil sell car \) unfortunately , high pressure washer would use one several miles shop one occasion washing engine , would start water would gotten distributor \( would put plastic bag around try minimize \) , around spark plug wires , etc would nearly impossible try wipe areas dry rag usual solution carry wd 40 , car would n't start spray likely areas would start first time may myth , certainly kept stranded car wash rodney radford computer graphics imaging sasrer unx sas com sas institute , inc \( 919 \) 677 8000 cary , nc 27513
mcole spock \( cole \) subject organization new mexico state university lines 3 nntp posting host spock nmsu edu anyone know get schematic micro stepping circuit \? help would appreciated mcole nmsu edu
mcole spock \( cole \) subject organization new mexico state university lines 3 nntp posting host spock nmsu edu mice chip numbered able find information help would appreciated mcole nmsu edu
fmg alpha smi med pitt edu \( filip gieszczykiewicz \) subject switching ps questions summary know basics , ! commercial models , 3qs organization medical informatics , pittsburgh , pa usa lines 43 greetings 've recently decided chuck linear regulators learn black magic art switching power supplies \( anyone flames , know , place \) anyways , 've built basic converters pretty good results \( 80 efficiency \) i'm running problems try design build anything puts serious amps know done \( 5v 200a guts bench \) something puzzles i'm using simple choke storage element \( basicly toroid single winding \) commercial models use transformers many windings traced seem use winding usual error feedback others seem loose \? better , anyone full schematic one could get copy \? 'd love see manage squeeze much low volume \) problems \( getting high amps good efficiency \) 1 \) lack sources ideal components \( calculated \) 2 \) limited knowledge whole topic i'm \( school \) mind \( fact , yet take course covers transistors \) , answer 1 accumulation dead commercial models \( 's i'm \) 2 getting understanding schematics bit mind boggling theory \? take care p goal 12v 25a \( car battery \) \( end \) 5vdc 5a , 5v 1a , 8a 1a distance two 100 feet \( 14 16 gauge \) less 300 feet would like working model year \) \( chance make \? \) filip 'll buy vowel gieszczykiewicz best e mail fmgst pitt edu ideas mine 0 99 respond ! ! ! ! live ee major , , programming , sca , assorted dreams 200mb drive linux 100mb ms dos 100mb ms dos worried \)
cfb fc hp com \( charlie brett \) subject lead acid batteries concrete \? nntp posting host hpfcmgw fc hp com organization hewlett packard fort collins site x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 5 lines 15 michael covington \( mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \) wrote topic beaten death year ago concrete problem lead acid batteries often fail disuse \( charged long time \) , 's way concrete floor could cause problem ditto remote , say remote , possibility ground real cold \( \) battery might freeze split would probably freeze anyway \) charlie brett ft collins , co
derry nextwork rose hulman edu \( john derry \) subject lead acid batteries concrete \? organization computer science department rose hulman lines 33 reply derry nextwork rose hulman edu \( john derry \) nntp posting host 137 112 30 46 article 1993apr21 204556 21262 cronkite ocis temple edu camter28 astro ocis temple edu \( carter ames \) writes wondering one thing , actually two \( hope proper place post subject \) lead acid battery discharge become dead \( totally unuseable \) stored concrete floor \? decided bring battery lawn mower motorcycle unheated garage year , preserve went use noticed work , act like two terminals shorted asked friend said never , 'cause ruins , could n't tell thanks camter28 astro ocis temple edu happens \( heard discussed northern exposure \) molecular molecules battery molecules concrete acts ufos \( actually crew members \) arrive scene battery concrete combination proceed suck energy batteries ! remedy set battery floor jack
simon sco com \( simon \) subject caller id chip info requested organization sco canada , inc lines 18 got caller id \( except bell calls call display n't know talking asked caller id \) got cheapest display box could find , hope convert serial chip used 18 pin dip marked cdt 14 285 presume date i'm hoping somebody knows something chip , save strange hours hooked scope , asking friends call 'll post interesting replies , experiences simon simon sco com
skelly amiganet chi il us \( sean kelly \) subject pin \? \? organization amiga network information systems lines 12 anyone know pin outs 27c512 eprom \? \? bought several , none come pin outs ! info would appreciated sean kelly sysop bbs \( 312 \) 594 1146 always looking classic video games following systems atari 2600 atari 5200 atari 5200 vectrex
skelly amiganet chi il us \( sean kelly \) subject question addressing organization amiga network information systems lines 16 question accessing certain addresses chip , particulary 27c512 eprom although n't know much , understand , 's pin chip , voltage applied , kicks address question determine many bytes address \? \? example , code want accessed 2000 also say 4000 move address pointer positions \? \? thanks info sean kelly sysop bbs \( 312 \) 594 1146 always looking classic video games following systems atari 2600 atari 5200 atari 5200 vectrex
cc bellcore com \( , grant f \) subject adcom cheap products \? organization bellcore , livingston , nj summary effect heat sound quality lines 43 much deleted assembly usa vs , wish focus subject warm running amplifiers sure amp runs fairly hot 's get amp sound incredibly good amp runs hot bearing 's gonna sound amp probably running class whole day either engineer manufacturer amp wanted cooling save costs ! hmmmmm warm running amps good sound , words , bearing , n't suggest everyone run create combination stove amplifiers degrade lifespan , cold running circuit much temperature variation current warm running one since junction resistance function temperature , detrimental effect linearity facts bias points vary temperature junction resist temp adcom products run class still n't beleive assertion , consider warm requirements good test equipment , better yet , listen amplifier warm many designs quite audible , mine , 20 minutes output stage , many hours drivers fortunately drivers switched experiment , drawing conclusions listening , seperate effect device temperature bias \( idle current \) level positive correlation low distortion good sound quality , high bias results warmer operation , factors equal grant
dtmedin catbyte b30 ingr com \( dave medin \) subject suggestions audio relays \? \? \? reply dtmedin catbyte b30 ingr com organization intergraph corporation , huntsville al lines 66 article c5qsbf iek ms uky edu , billq ms uky edu \( billy quinn \) writes built little project using radio shack 5vdc relays switch audio got pretty bad 'clicks' thing switched common things one supposed using relays nothing seemed get rid clicks question good relay relay circuit use switching audio , noise kind audio lines appreciate advice references advice also , exact part numbers company names etc relays help ! first step make sure dc component , intentional , audio lines switched neither output input presents unintentional dc level \( let 's say 're coupled \) , putting 22 k resistor input ground , output ground good precaution leakage coupling caps presenting dc level guaranteed cause click device presents unintentional dc level coupling capacitor leakage , need remove dc switching coupling capacitors one relay \( relay switching one input common output \) , use make break switching brief instant sources connected switch change may mask switch click audio switch made taking light bulb making opto light dependent resistor \( \) sealed inside piece black many broadcast consoles use older , time honored technique actually makes complete like , n't part number handy radio shack grab bag \( 276 \) might want try simple , solid state switch cheap , might try looking analog switch commonly available \( older predecessor , \) , dc component must removed prior switching alternatives include switches \( discrete ic \) diode switching \( works relatively well , surprisingly \) , pitfalls application tips could easily make subject multi page article solid state switches may induce click turned due charge injected audio line device capacitance control signal changes state techniques minimize include lowering impedance signal paths switch , differential switching , slowing control pulse , cutting click simple putting 10k resistors series control pins hope helps least get started dave medin phone \( 205 \) 730 3169 \( w \) ssd networking \( 205 \) 837 1174 \( h \) intergraph corp gd3004 internet dtmedin catbyte b30 ingr com huntsville , al 35894 uucp uunet ! ingr ! b30 ! catbyte ! dtmedin everywhere look \( least around office \) opinions expressed mine \( machine \)
subject disks copy protected sjmadsen nextsrv cas muohio edu \( steve madsen \) nntp posting host nextsrv cas muohio edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 50 kuo sheng \( kasey \) chang \( kschang sfsuvax1 sfsu edu \) wrote program definitely , restored machine \( depends programmer n't use disk drive characteristic ! \) user upgrade machine , reinstall programs way document look , disk wear tear ! good idea upgraded motherboard last fall would quite pissed software would forced reinstall simply changed motherboards info bios volatile use checksum going require user install software add 4mb ram computer \? couple weeks ago 's bios , software told n't machine installed would never used software really bad idea say originals would allow one install user 's conscience silly 's much easier loan disks friend let install backup copy already disk , give scheme n't going stop anyone know many bytes need change x wing disable quiz \? two ! yes , two ! \( n't ask ones \) know assembly language \? anyone needs find part code quiz , insert jmp instruction completely skip difficult , really ! little stop type thing using similar utility would help , resulting compressed exe tagged believe companies implement plus special patch user registers loudly exclaims upon bootup registered xxxxx address , city , state zip disables far best idea presented post making plainly obvious registered going stop casual pirates , determined ones going answer joe blow question 's name wo n't stop long run pirates always going win fight simply time work software figure protection scheme steve madsen sjmadsen nextsrv cas muohio edu ask linux , free 386 unix !
kschang sfsuvax1 sfsu edu \( kuo sheng \( kasey \) chang \) subject disks copy protected organization san francisco state university lines 31 article rcstage1 128 urc tue nl rcstage1 urc tue nl \( guido klemans \) writes article 1993apr22 163605 24784 csus edu kschang sfsuvax1 sfsu edu \( kuo sheng \( kasey \) chang \) writes believe companies implement plus special patch user registers loudly exclaims upon bootup registered xxxxx address , city , state zip disables two benefits 1 \) encourages registration , 2 \) cuts pirating makes traceable , patch 's registration message encrypted , quite hard change , therefore provides stable trail allowed copy hands , thus violated license agreement take two copies different registration id , compare byte byte know located usually able find probably , point company make registration patch , sure , probably find another user compare notes , \? 's hindering way unless hacking problem people cut much quoting keeps form registering john doe company public domain , yellow brick road 1 , something \? \? \? nothing , read whole suggestion , i'm saying register via mail mailing registration card , company send patch includes info put registration card kasey chang
dino inqmind bison mb ca \( tony stewart \) subject need help video detection circuit organization inquiring mind bbs 1 204 488 1607 lines 64 verity jack sns com \( steve verity \) writes trying build circuit detects presence video \( vs blank screen \) monitoring r , g , b outputs graphics card able detect presence single pixel 65 mhz , would mean detecting 15 ns pulse also able tell difference blank screen \( 300 mv \) dim screen \( say , around 310 mv \) oh yes , also needs cheap first circuit failure used 3 compariators compariator input going one guns , input went reference created voltage divider \( \) first problem compariator way slow needed get several pixels row would fire compariators , could whole screen full text , second problem noise reference smallest difference blank screen dim screen fact difference completely black completely white 650 mv wondering going amplify video signals make work faster compariators , expensive , require split supplies would need replace 49 quad compariator three 1 89 compariators , create whole new power supply circuit point , think need sort transistor circuit transistors fast cheap trick unfortunately , way league comes designing transistor circuits , appealing net help ideas , tips , circuits , pointers , references , etc would greatly appreciated oh yes , sample output thing every second , n't need fast response time , however , n't found way take advantage fact thanks lot help anybody might able give course , undying gratitude steve verity steve verity maxed midi verity jack sns com order get 15 ns response time need , better going ecl run single 5 5 2 v supply , need bias level shifting perhaps get range check ecl 10k books simple cheap solution dino inqmind bison mb ca inquiring mind bbs , winnipeg , manitoba 204 488 1607
mizzou1 missouri edu \( handy \) subject info wanted standard phone line nntp posting host mizzou1 missouri edu organization university missouri lines 14 greetings i'm novice area i'm trying gather info standard phone line settings quick questions want send beep phone lines , function generator tie one phone wires \? \? one wires connect dtmf chip audio \? \? help would much appreciated thankx advance handy mizzou1 missouri edu
dino inqmind bison mb ca \( tony stewart \) subject voltage regulation current limiting organization inquiring mind bbs 1 204 488 1607 lines 54 acollins uclink berkeley edu \( andy collins \) writes one quick question throw guys class project , need design build power supply following specs adjustable 1 12v current limited 1a voltage must stay within 2 designated value 0 1a ac ripple less 5 mv \( rms \) course , ca n't use adjustable voltage , current limiting regulator chip \) problem current limiting \( e 've found stuff rest parts circuit \) supply must , presented load would draw 1a , given supply voltage , reduce voltage current equal one amp thus , short thing , read one amp measure current 1 ohm resistor 12v , read one amp \( output voltage , necessity , must 1v basic idea seen current limiter involves circuit pull current base output power transistor , therefore reduce output , anybody ideas could work \? thanks advance andy collins , acollins uclink berkeley edu ps anybody wants flame stupid project , agree fully , still , graded \) design ramp , brick wall current limit even fold back cutoff sounds like want brick wall current limit lead correct pull bias series regulator base drive order get brick wall , need enough voltage gain current sensor normally current sensing resistor adequate , infinite gain use op amp sense current stable voltage reference use driver turn base bias series pass transistor phase compensation may necessary closed loop control system 180 degrees phase shift circuit unity gain ok \? \? dino inqmind bison mb ca inquiring mind bbs , winnipeg , manitoba 204 488 1607
dino inqmind bison mb ca \( tony stewart \) subject making odd resistor values required filters organization inquiring mind bbs 1 204 488 1607 lines 29 nessie mcc ac uk \( ian hawkins \) writes constructing active filters , odd values resistor often required \( e something like 3 14 k ohm resistor \) \( seems best choose common capacitor values cope strange resistances demanded \) pd program work best make resistance , given fixed resistors standard 12 values per decade \? \( 1 , 1 2 , 1 5 , 1 8 , 2 2 , 3 3 etc \) common enough problem , yet cant recall program tells rx ry rz gives rq , starting q finding prefered values x , z cheers ian h trying choose resistor tolerance better 1 , need screen devices , ca n't made adding 2 1 value parallel , since smaller device error 1 cope 3 choices \) live error 1 tolerance devices low q circuits low sensitivity designs b \) buy resistors better 1 tolerance \( dale \) c \) use 's \( select test \) dino inqmind bison mb ca inquiring mind bbs , winnipeg , manitoba 204 488 1607
baden inqmind bison mb ca \( baden de bari \) subject blue led 's organization inquiring mind bbs 1 204 488 1607 lines 19 's story 're stuck regular green , red , yellow orange led 's ! \? gives ! ! \? \? anybody 'scoop' fairly low priced blue led 's \? \? \? curiosity , course inspiration comes baden sys6626 bison mb ca \( \) baden inqmind bison mb ca seek baden de bari unknown baden inqmind bison mb ca inquiring mind bbs , winnipeg , manitoba 204 488 1607
dtmedin catbyte b30 ingr com \( dave medin \) subject tran tube reply dtmedin catbyte b30 ingr com organization intergraph corporation , huntsville al lines 13 've got \( \) unused transmitter tube sale best offer far 125 's getting close 'll sell hamfest prices 200 250 works , guaranteed original packaging dave medin phone \( 205 \) 730 3169 \( w \) ssd networking \( 205 \) 837 1174 \( h \) intergraph corp gd3004 internet dtmedin catbyte b30 ingr com huntsville , al 35894 uucp uunet ! ingr ! b30 ! catbyte ! dtmedin opinions expressed mine \( machine \)
tekig5 pen tek com \( alan \) subject lead acid batteries concrete \? distribution na organization tektronix , inc , beaverton , lines 6 battery goes dead primarily floor cold temperature combined self discharge promotes ruins plates battery strongly suspect reason battery n't go dead quickly dirt surface cement tends quite cooler
wagner mala bc ca \( tom wagner , wizzard old audio visual equipment nanaimo campus \) subject circuit boards green \? organization malaspina college lines 46 article 1993apr23 news cs tut fi , kuusama kaarne cs tut fi \( kuusama juha , , , vtt , \) writes question anything important , still curious almost printed circuit boards green \? seen blue ones , red , yellow , company logo etc technical reason could marketing geniuses tought \( yet \) \? juha color board shows composition , hence use original older boards bakelite composition , brown phenolic \( spelling \) tan non filled fiberglass boards used computers green filled fiberglass blue teflon white boards evolved demands made first boards used mainly audio circuitry could n't used high voltage rf would arc burn boards today fiberglass , type chosen use cost boards satellite microwave communication teflon \( ceramic \) fiberglass , boards conductive \( actually work capacitive , word conductive simplifies explaination \) high frequencies another printed circuit material used mainly automotive thin flexible \( mostly mylar \) material used connect front vehicle \( etc \) back instead wiring use boards inside wires would nuisance working generator made packard right entire board gold plated , boy looks expensive ! ! ! hope got facts right working memory material read education pre ! 73 , tom tom wagner , audio visual technician malaspina college nanaimo british columbia \( 604 \) 753 3245 , loc 2230 fax 755 8742 callsign ve7gda weapon 45 kentucky rifle snail mail site q4 , c2 rr 4 , nanaimo , british columbia , canada , v9r 5x9 recyle keep everything ! \( standard disclaimers apply \)
wwerner thor mlb semi harris com \( william werner \) subject harris semiconductor 's answerfax information nntp posting host thor mlb semi harris com organization harris semiconductor , melbourne fl lines 84 h h rrrrr rrrrr ssss h h r r r r aaaaa rrrrr rrrrr ssss h h r r r r h h r r r r ssss harris semiconductor answerfax answerfax line 24 hours day , 7 days week , instantly receive application notes using touch tone telephone fax machine number call \( 407 \) 724 \( set international calls time \) general decision tree answerfax follows , numbers available selections welcome harris semiconductors answerfax 1 2 select 1 select 2 familiar explanation answerfax answerfax 1 2 select 1 order select 2 document \( list catalogs document list 1 new products catalogs , 2 linear products get first \) 3 data acquisition products 4 digital signal processing products 5 discrete power intelligent power products 9 application notes select appropriate document select appropriate catalog want order want order anything else \? yes , anything else \? yes , taken back taken back selection decision selection decision phone number fax \? name \? \( request instructions \) end bill werner bill werner wwerner mis semi harris com harris semiconductor wwerner thor mlb semi harris com melbourne florida life candle , \( 407 \) 729 dream give flame rush , steel
solaria mil wi us \( david dexter \) subject data needed organization solaria public access unix milwaukee , wi lines 11 hi could someone please send enough info talk \? 's kind peripheral chip made believe help would greatly appreciated ! thanks advance dave solaria mil wi us technology thru broken parts
theo walt caps maine edu \( theo \) subject data paging info wanted organization utexas mail news gateway lines 19 nntp posting host cs utexas edu hello , i'm looking information data sent paging transmitter would go building device decode paging data \( like pager \) feed though rs232 port i'm planning different paging messages different software keep amount hardware need anyone know chips \( motorola \? \) good decoding numeric paging data \( stuffing rs232 port \( basically baud rate fine ! \) \? \( already radio reciever headphone level output audio signal paging tower , 'd interested anything know , including type radio recievers use ! \) thanks advance ! theo email theo walt caps maine edu
uci edu \( steve gross \) subject disks copy protected nntp posting host ut uci edu organization uc irvine college medicine lines 52 article 1993apr23 csus edu kschang sfsuvax1 sfsu edu \( kuo sheng \( kasey \) chang \) writes article rcstage1 128 urc tue nl rcstage1 urc tue nl \( guido klemans \) writes article 1993apr22 163605 24784 csus edu kschang sfsuvax1 sfsu edu \( kuo sheng \( kasey \) chang \) writes believe companies implement plus special patch user registers loudly exclaims upon bootup registered xxxxx address , city , state zip disables two benefits 1 \) encourages registration , 2 \) cuts pirating makes traceable , patch 's registration message encrypted , quite hard change , therefore provides stable trail allowed copy hands , thus violated license agreement take two copies different registration id , compare byte byte know located usually able find probably , point company make registration patch , sure , probably find another user compare notes , \? 's hindering way unless hacking problem people cut much quoting keeps form registering john doe company public domain , yellow brick road 1 , something \? \? \? nothing , read whole suggestion , i'm saying register via mail mailing registration card , company send patch includes info put registration card kasey chang i'm glad see idea come 've something similar mind authorization key computed name address data user registers , n't even need send executable code , compute key send instructions enter appropriate place following name joe doe address 123 main street city , ca key every user needs unique key executable propagate much like , author respond registration e mail , post card , whatever unauthorized users would put someone else 's name showing \( maybe main menu screen well startup message \) authorized users make many copies like , upgrade machines , whatever main motivation guilt irritation seeing someone registered owner
vanderby mprgate mpr ca \( david vanderbyl \) subject lead acid batteries concrete \? nntp posting host chip reply vanderby mprgate mpr ca \( david vanderbyl \) organization mpr teltech ltd distribution na lines 11 article tekig7 pen tek com , tekig5 pen tek com \( alan \) writes battery goes dead primarily floor cold temperature combined self discharge promotes ruins plates battery strongly suspect reason battery n't go dead quickly dirt surface cement tends quite cooler please explain cement able maintain lower average temperature dirt sheesh
vanderby mprgate mpr ca \( david vanderbyl \) subject pin \? \? nntp posting host chip reply vanderby mprgate mpr ca \( david vanderbyl \) organization mpr teltech ltd lines 11 article skelly amiganet chi il us , skelly amiganet chi il us \( sean kelly \) writes anyone know pin outs 27c512 eprom \? \? bought several , none come pin outs ! info would appreciated good source information data type library particular library local college technical school offering courses electronics would data books nature
little enet dec com \( name \) subject sale omti st 506 rll scsi adapters organization digital equipment corporation lines 14 2 omti scsi adapters sale make st 506 rll drive look like scsi disk drive adapter support two rll drives used model omti adapter amiga a500 c ltd scsi host adapter without problems i'm selling got time decided sell instead expand amiga never even used ca n't guarantee work every scsi host adapter essentially new box paid 150 ea , make offer regards , todd \( 708 \) 202 1030 little enet dec com
witr rwwa com \( robert withrow \) subject cable tvi interference nntp posting host reply witr rwwa com organization r w withrow associates lines 12 article rave larc nasa gov , watson nimbus larc nasa gov \( catherine watson \) writes gave year letters phone calls got impression fcc powerless cable company correct situation n't formal action citizen take requires fcc , least , generate paperwork \? robert withrow , tel 1 617 598 , fax 1 617 598 , net witr rwwa com r w withrow associates , 21 railroad ave , 1821 usa
kludge grissom larc nasa gov \( scott dorsey \) subject lead acid batteries concrete \? organization nasa langley research center reptile farm lines 23 distribution na nntp posting host grissom larc nasa gov article 1993apr23 mprgate mpr ca vanderby mprgate mpr ca \( david vanderbyl \) writes article tekig7 pen tek com , tekig5 pen tek com \( alan \) writes battery goes dead primarily floor cold temperature combined self discharge promotes ruins plates battery strongly suspect reason battery n't go dead quickly dirt surface cement tends quite cooler please explain cement able maintain lower average temperature dirt sheesh 's temperature , 's karma see , dirt good karma , since 's organic full living things , cement squared artificial looking , lost karma process karma sink , sucks good karma battery longer able keep charge wood also good organic , putting board battery cement fix problems buddha nature acid , also lead plate novice asked master whether lead karma whether solid lead master handed novice b battery , terminals downward , thus novice enlightened scott
vanderby mprgate mpr ca \( david vanderbyl \) subject question addressing nntp posting host chip reply vanderby mprgate mpr ca \( david vanderbyl \) organization mpr teltech ltd lines 37 article skelly amiganet chi il us , skelly amiganet chi il us \( sean kelly \) writes question accessing certain addresses chip , particulary 27c512 eprom although n't know much , understand , 's pin chip , voltage applied , kicks address question determine many bytes address \? \? example , code want accessed 2000 also say 4000 move address pointer positions \? \? thanks info sean kelly sysop bbs \( 312 \) 594 1146 always looking classic video games following systems atari 2600 atari 5200 atari 5200 vectrex judging sig trying make kind game cartridge information build eeprom vectrex available via anonymous ftp since 've chosen 27c512 probably trying make simply 1 load game images eeprom 2000 , 4000 , etc \( eeprom burner software may allow assemble images one file suitable gaps \) 2 wire cartridge lower address bits going game console , high bits going switches choose games directly answer question , pin address' simply another address line concrete example , 27c512 8k games images , would wire a0 cartridge , a15 3 switches 3 switches would allow pick 8 games eeprom
kralizec zeta org au \( steven murray \) subject rams roms ale latches \( 8051 's \) organization kralizec dialup unix sydney 61 2 837 1183 v 32bis lines 12 nntp posting host kralizec zeta org au article ucnv edu au jeff redgum ucnv edu au \( j \) writes hello , asked year ago , still looking getting sick use getting sick real estate used , could always use approach seen one designer take stuck chip middle eprom socket , eprom naturally , use ic socket right dimensions , layout really easy steven murray
vanderby mprgate mpr ca \( david vanderbyl \) subject question addressing \( correction \) nntp posting host chip reply vanderby mprgate mpr ca \( david vanderbyl \) organization mpr teltech ltd lines 4 little correction previous post hour ago please replace term term wherever appears \( n't added extra 'e' every time \)
carr email comm mot com \( eric carr \) subject help phone wire ones tip ring \? distribution usa organization systems lines 38 nntp posting host 145 1 160 178 article 1993apr22 husc3 harvard edu , mlevin husc8 harvard edu \( michael levin \) wrote bought little gizmo supposed installed series tip ring lines phone wire ones \? suppose holding regular phone wire , little plastic tooth \( little plastic square thing naked lead ends plug phone \) facing , away 4 wires see tip ring \? please reply mlevin husc8 harvard edu mike levin assuming refering standard pots ground start lines looking loop start lines idle conditions , ring conductor one approximately 48 52 vdc respect ground tip conductor near ground potential \( sure reference telco ground taking measurements \) dealing ground start lines idle conditions , ring conductor one approximately 48 52 vdc tip conductor would look like 's floating \( may see potential line capacitance bleed time \) remember use telco ground reference making measurements '67 caprice sport coupe
seema madvlsi columbia edu \( seema varma \) subject luser ! organization columbia university x posted china madvlsi columbia edu nntp posting host sol ctr columbia edu lines 13 hi , looking high speed converter \( least 8bits 150mhz \) research application paper january issue ieee solid state circuits mentions gaas , , 8bit dac anyone know find thing \? even somewhat slower si dac would needless say , looked conventional places \( , motorola , national , etc etc \) pointers would appreciated seema varma
kschang sfsuvax1 sfsu edu \( kuo sheng \( kasey \) chang \) subject disks copy protected organization san francisco state university lines 93 article 1993apr23 miavx1 acs muohio edu sjmadsen nextsrv cas muohio edu \( steve madsen \) writes , restored machine \( depends programmer n't use disk drive characteristic ! \) user upgrade machine , reinstall programs way document look , disk wear tear ! good idea upgraded motherboard last fall would quite pissed software would forced reinstall simply changed motherboards opinion understandable \) assume tape drive \? us 200 floppies around backup , know info bios volatile use checksum going require user install software add 4mb ram computer \? couple weeks ago 's bios , software told n't machine installed would never used software really bad idea ram something add time , 's like bios manufacturer processor type \( 386 486 etc \) data cannot used , esp new flash rom bios machines updates diskette hand , make less intrusive could disguised please insert original disk xx need file update \) would perfectly reasonable sort say originals would allow one install user 's conscience silly 's much easier loan disks friend let install backup copy already disk , give scheme n't going stop anyone course easier saying originals allow one install \? point \? know many bytes need change x wing disable quiz \? two ! yes , two ! \( n't ask ones \) know assembly language \? anyone needs find part code quiz , insert jmp instruction completely skip difficult , really ! little stop type thing using similar utility would help , resulting compressed exe tagged know x86 680x0 assembly quite well , thank know exactly two bytes need changed , code said n't ask ones n't say n't know means hacking easily discouraged adding anti code self check upon execution refuse load crc match value stored \( encrypted , course \) program could claimed part anti virus code , would far truth believe companies implement plus special patch user registers loudly exclaims upon bootup registered xxxxx address , city , state zip disables far best idea presented post making plainly obvious registered going stop casual pirates , determined ones going answer joe blow question 's name wo n't stop long run anyone read wrote \? wrote ! \( meant ! \) said program certain restriction \( restrict one machine \) program registered manufacturer manufacturer supply proven legitimate user patch disable restriction proudly proclaim legal copy registered xxx screen pirates always going win fight simply time work software figure protection scheme course , point purpose copy protection discourage casual pirates \( oh , copy \? sure , \) less sophisticated pirates \( let 's look calls \) one determined enough break copy protection succeed always entire load sequence program point copy protection make attempts take long possible upon uses \( minimize intrusion \) legitimate use pirates see copy protection challenge love breaking , amount copy protection stop , rest us stopped many hardcore pirates compared rest us \? many kasey chang
magnus acs ohio state edu \( eric w \) subject exactly ibm 486slc processor \? nntp posting host photon magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university distribution na lines 11 could someone please tell 486slc processors ibm putting 700 's pc 's real 486 math coprocessor really kludge called 486 \? thanks , eric eric w der war ohio state university das nicht magnus acs ohio state edu peter schilling 120 grad 1983
neal cmptrc lonestar org \( neal howard \) subject lead acid batteries concrete \? organization computrac inc , richardson tx lines 44 article athena cs uga edu mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) writes article 1993apr21 204556 21262 cronkite ocis temple edu camter28 astro ocis temple edu \( carter ames \) writes lead acid battery discharge become dead \( totally unuseable \) stored concrete floor \? decided bring battery lawn mower motorcycle unheated garage year , preserve went use noticed work , act like two terminals shorted asked friend said never , 'cause ruins , could n't tell topic beaten death year ago concrete problem lead acid batteries often fail disuse \( charged long time \) , 's way concrete floor could cause problem concrete floor accelerates problem heat sink colder lead acid battery self discharges slightly faster rate 's old tale sitting piece wood floor works help keep killing battery fast battery 'll set battery piece styrofoam , self discharge even slower best thing would attach small load small transistor radio volume turned low leave constantly , also trickle charge every couple days shallow cycle charge battery mild exercising lead acid battery next best thing completely removing electrolyte storage remove electrolyte , may sure keep separate storage containers cell 's electrolyte put back cells refill battery n't critical brand new battery fully charged state , maximize restored output older battery may fully charged remove electrolyte storage neal howard '91 xlh 1200 dod 686 computrac , inc \( richardson , tx \) doh 0000001200 355o33 neal cmptrc lonestar org std disclaimer opinions mine , computrac 's let us learn dream , gentlemen , perhaps shall learn truth august kekule' \( 1890 \)
wiegand rtsg mot com \( robert wiegand \) subject lead acid batteries concrete \? nntp posting host reply wiegand rtsg mot com organization motorola inc , cellular infrastructure group lines 31 camter28 astro ocis temple edu \( carter ames \) writes wondering one thing , actually two \( hope proper place post subject \) lead acid battery discharge become dead \( totally unuseable \) stored concrete floor \? decided bring battery lawn mower motorcycle unheated garage year , preserve went use noticed work , act like two terminals shorted asked friend said never , 'cause ruins , could n't tell n't see way concrete floor could anything battery however , would better leaving outside keeping cold would better bringing inside warm battery self discharge faster cold one storing battery 's good idea charge month letting battery go completely dead bad \( suspect caused problems \) robert wiegand motorola inc wiegand rtsg mot com disclamer n't somewhere else time
cyberman toz buffalo ny us \( cyberman \) subject need help finding parts ! lines 4 x maildoor waflinemail 1 00r ok posted b4 blue wave qwk v2 12
klp doe carleton ca \( ka lun pang \) subject self destructing copy protection vhs tape \? organization dept electronics , carleton university lines 19 hi folks , borrowed vhs tape friend warning begining saying attempts copy tape result destroying copy original found unbelievable playing recording two different processes however , 've never seen tape sold anywhere n't want take chance even 's small anyone experience kind self destructing video tapes \? thanks advance ka lun pang \( k andy \) lost frequency time unit circle email klp doe carleton ca dod
mark andrew cmu edu subject , g , h type amplifiers organization senior , electrical computer engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 9 nntp posting host po4 andrew cmu edu hey , someone clue weird types amplifiers \? brief intro concepts behind would cool clues type , b , ab already stuff , ones mentioned occasionally dont know think type like pwm scheme something thanx advanced mark \( andrew cmu edu \)
tl chalmers se \( rn lindgren \) subject disks copy protected organization chalmers university technology , gothenburg , sweden lines 11 article 1993apr23 miavx1 acs muohio edu sjmadsen nextsrv cas muohio edu \( steve madsen \) writes know assembly language \? anyone needs find part code quiz , insert jmp instruction completely skip difficult , really ! little stop type thing using similar utility would help , resulting compressed exe tagged even n't help , least two programs available fixes \( , available simtel 20 \) even without n't hard fix
jott scarecrow cse nd edu \( john ott \) subject food reply jott scarecrow cse nd edu \( john ott \) organization univ notre dame lines 26 article sci electronics newsgroups sci electronics path news nd edu ! spool mu edu ! howland reston ans net ! bogus sura net ! news feed 1 peachnet edu ! gatech ! ! ! ! schuch schuch phx mcd mot com \( john schuch \) subject food dehydrators message id 1993apr19 phx mcd mot com sender news phx mcd mot com nntp posting host bopper2 phx mcd mot com organization motorola computer group , tempe , az distribution usa date mon , 19 apr 93 10 43 56 est lines 9 anybody one food dehydrators 've seeing late night tv recently \? wondering use forced air , heat , 's heat involved , anybody know temperature run \? wife would like one i'm inclined pay 100 00 box , fan heater seems able throw dehydrator together bucks heck , technology \? 1 , 000 years old \? john try mother earth news , feb march 1993 , pg 54 , build food dryer john
jmiller terra colostate edu \( jeff miller \) subject disks copy protected nntp posting host terra colostate edu organization colorado state university , fort collins , co 80523 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 12 nothing , read whole suggestion , i'm saying register via mail mailing registration card , company send patch includes info put registration card problem scheme , buy game , want play day mailing card california would probably take week jmiller terra colostate edu jeff miller terra lab systems admin
vanderby mprgate mpr ca \( david vanderbyl \) subject lead acid batteries concrete \? nntp posting host chip reply vanderby mprgate mpr ca \( david vanderbyl \) organization mpr teltech ltd lines 28 neal cmptrc lonestar org \( neal howard \) writes concrete floor accelerates problem heat sink colder lead acid battery self discharges slightly faster rate 's old tale sitting piece wood floor works help keep killing battery fast battery 'll set battery piece styrofoam , self discharge even slower number inaccuracies 1 \) fact , colder battery self discharge slowly batteries stored cool , dry place 2 \) battery placed concrete become colder one placed wood battery , wood , concrete general temperature \( ignoring temperature fluctuations \) thus none effect best thing would attach small load small transistor radio volume turned low leave constantly , also trickle charge every couple days shallow cycle charge battery mild exercising lead acid battery next best thing completely removing electrolyte storage need battery keep charged \( trickle charger job \) stuff deleted
baden sys6626 bison mb ca \( baden de bari \) subject ! ! ! help ! need 3479p ! ! ! ! ! ! organization system 6626 bbs , winnipeg manitoba canada lines 21 would anyone extra 3479p 's lying around could buy problem around 30 quantities , n't need , ca n't take financially right anyone accomodate please reply following mailing addresses thanks ! ! ! baden de bari baden sys6626 bison mb ca \( \) baden inqmind bison mb ca true life fear death
weaver sfc sony com \( eric weaver \) subject atari 2600 processors organization sony advanced video technology center san jose , ca usa lines 6 i'm 2600 hacker old days let 's see much trouble get telling want know eric weaver sony 677 river oaks , ms 35 sj ca 408 944 chief engineer , 89 7 college , los altos hills ca
erini enterprise ifp uiuc edu \( erini doss \) subject cellular antennas organization university illinois urbana lines 14 need get info p cellular antenna market right main companies making , much cost , specs \( gain , , etc \) , contact person group us univ il researching technology personally mail copy entire plan paper help e mail erini enterprise ifp uiuc edu
erini enterprise ifp uiuc edu \( erini doss \) subject cellular antennas organization university illinois urbana lines 11 need know market cellular antenna technology today main companies market much selling \? contact people \? specs \? mail far help us ! ! erini ifp uiuc edu
cco caltech edu \( martin w lin \) subject audio electronic parts , esp los angeles organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 14 nntp posting host sandman caltech edu i'm working audio mixer project , i'm trouble finding parts want use op amps gain control stages ones found good audio , cannot find either electronic parts places 've looked good substitute op amps parts suppliers la area carry kind thing \( dual audio slider pots would nice , \) info would appreciated thanks advance martin lin cco caltech edu
maynard selway umt edu \( robert l maynard \) subject disks copy protected summary make backups \? \? \? organization university montana lines 37 noeler xanth cs orst edu \( eric richard noel \) writes discussion piracy deleted deeper end everyone think need able make backup copy \? almost new software must installed hard disk , left originals backups think waste time , space , money , well makes tempting lend backups practice new software make copy original floppies second set floppies install hard drive second set floppies put originals box room number one put copies box room number two 1 \) accidents happen original floppies 2 \) accidents happen installation floppy 3 \) sometimes software goes floppies marginally good gets close magnet shipping storage 've experience something like last purchased compiler reputable vendor debugger package would install hard drive way repeated floppy floppy copies finally got clean read disk recall used diskcopy , copy b , made second copy marginal floppy installed \( except typing \) \) since regard backup floppies cheap insurance side question bob
jeh cmkrnl com subject los angeles freeway traffic reports organization kernel mode systems , san diego , ca lines 10 article cup hp com , cup hp com \( doug claar \) writes driving middle nowhere , picked knbr , 1070 , clear channel station based los angeles knx , 1070 la , unhappy hear , i'm sure \) \( n't knbr bay area \? \) jamie hanrahan , kernel mode systems , san diego ca internet jeh cmkrnl com uucp uunet ! cmkrnl ! jeh cis 74140 , 2055
gladman ecf toronto edu \( gladman aviv \) subject blue led 's organization university toronto , engineering computing facility distribution sci electronics lines 22 article inqmind bison mb ca baden inqmind bison mb ca \( baden de bari \) writes 's story 're stuck regular green , red , yellow orange led 's ! \? gives ! ! \? \? anybody 'scoop' fairly low priced blue led 's \? \? \? order emit blue light , semiconductor must band gap energy within region 2 6 2 8 electron volts according physical electronics prof , ca n't get led band gap 's n't find blue leds , matter , colour leds say blue leds ca n't found 've seen 'blue' leds sold , typical visible light led blue plastic covering n't emit much light source solid state electronic devices \( ben g , 3d ed , prentice hall \) right planet , wrong universe douglas adams took bones , would n't mr
stone andy cs yale edu \( andy stone \) subject disks copy protected organization homes majors organization lines 18 nntp posting host dolphin zoo cs yale edu reply jmiller terra colostate edu 's message fri , 23 apr 1993 22 38 05 gmt wrote commercial program called game maker \( guess \) document protect \( answer question page x , line \) , real pain also allow user register sending card , computing based name system works 've gotten lots registration cards hear program cracked though someone two people actually called support one question , wanting buy graphics libraries \( right ! \) anyway anyone wants help catch cracker cracked version , mail wo n't accuse \( unless 're cracker course \) andy stone suned cs yale edu andy stone suned cs yale edu
davidj rahul net \( david josephson \) subject blue led 's nntp posting host bolero organization a2i network distribution sci electronics lines 27 ecf toronto edu gladman ecf toronto edu \( gladman aviv \) writes article inqmind bison mb ca baden inqmind bison mb ca \( baden de bari \) writes 's story 're stuck regular green , red , yellow orange led 's ! \? gives ! ! \? \? anybody 'scoop' fairly low priced blue led 's \? \? \? order emit blue light , semiconductor must band gap energy within region 2 6 2 8 electron volts according physical electronics prof , ca n't get led band gap 's 's mistaken exist , semiconductor silicon carbide , inefficient expensive around 2 7 ev n't find blue leds , matter , colour leds say blue leds ca n't found 've seen 'blue' leds sold , typical visible light led blue plastic covering n't emit much light ones clear plastic pray tell , would make typical led emit blue light \? david josephson davidj rahul net
ptorre hardy u washington edu \( phil torre \) subject drive array leds \? article shelley distribution world organization university washington , seattle lines 8 nntp posting host hardy u washington edu project mind requires array leds addressed individually microprocessor \( say , \) lsi designed drive led array \( including ram hold array state \) , failing , way multiplexing display n't latch bit led using discrete latch \? \( want avoid huge board covered possible ! \) thanks advance phil torre \( ptorre u washington edu \)
trsvax tandy com subject ir detector 'cards' \? \? \? nf id r monu6 cc monash edu au trsvax 000 238 nf trsvax tandy com ! apr 23 10 55 00 1993 lines 10 radio shack stores sell states sure carrying australia cost 6 usd charge fluorescent , glow exposed ir paul radio shack publications
alung megatest com \( aaron lung \) subject looking toshiba specs organization megatest corporation lines 12 i'm looking specs toshiba bp appears power amp housed 7 pin inline package used mitsubishi vcr , circa 1985 , dc motor controller tape drive checking oldest ic master \( 1990 \) , n't see listed , appears discontinued anyone anything part , 'd greatly ! thanks advance , aaron
subject power , signal surges home emd ham almanac bc ca distribution world organization robert smits lines 48 clewis ferret ocunix ca \( chris lewis \) writes article rave larc nasa gov kludge grissom larc nasa gov \( sc article drand spinner osf org drand spinner osf org \( doug article randall woof randall informix com \( randall rhea \) wri hams legally run 1500 watts unlikely , however , ham would running kind power car ham rigs possible either 'd need 300 amp alternator amplifier see need slow downgrade , hit push talk button , indeed possible good friend mine running 1 kw pep car yes , second alternator yes , calls rig electronic brake since engine noticeably slows key since knew electronics ham radio , seem remember pep actually 4x real power makes pep actually around 2x \? effective transmitted power also odd , takes account antenna height geometry tv station might advertise \( antenna top cn tower \) like sears hp \) though , 1500 real watts still n't impossible 125 150a 12v alternator , less alternator produces higher voltages 's three horsepower \( taking account \) 'll feel hit key much chris lewis clewis ferret ocunix ca phone canada 613 832 psroff 3 0 info psroff request ferret ocunix ca ferret list ferret request ferret ocunix ca sorta depends drive remember running two channel motorola power supply 40 tubes 1958 poor little 6 v generator heck time , keyed mic night , needed stationary , lights got awful dim n't progress wonderful \? emd ham almanac bc ca \( robert smits ladysmith bc \)
adrian cc utas edu au \( adrian lewis \) subject cleaning electronic equipment \? organization university tasmania , australia lines 13 hi , quick question standard lab solvents used clean electronic equipment components safely \( ie corrode , dissolve , short , etc equipment \) \? water \? \) methanol \? \? etc \? electronics type \( surprise , surprise \) , want avoid using thanks , adrian
hertz elee calpoly edu \( edward \) subject disks copy protected organization cal poly , san luis obispo lines 67 article 1r76sbinnkap flop engr orst edu noeler xanth cs orst edu \( eric richard noel \) writes strongly disagree think pirating done amateurs , wo n't copy program diskcopy ca n't hate disagree , \) \( note n't pirate software , trade simply met talked extensively 's fbi tap someone else 's phone \) pirating done people n't use programs pirate cracked program tends get passed , various graphics animations advertise whoever performed modification \( \) admit large portion business world involved copies programs one 's fellow workers , maybe taking home use one 's pc , trading tends spread throughout business whole many times someone walking business business letting people copy disks \? 's mostly matter convenience person sees program want use feel justified making copy since someone 's already paid , etc , etc \( note starting change bit much though \) 're talking 20 max goal pirated copies , bet anything beat diskcopy , ca n't easily copied hard drive , suffice commercially available copy programs \? \? programs like , things diskcopy ca n't \? anyone disputes feel would copy would n't know working people around computers , one comes realize user n't know much computer enthusiast least better pre guessing commands use \( sit use something without reading manual \? \) people , joe windows user ca n't remember arguments dir command hate hard copy manuals , would rather docs online want copy program , usually faster convenient sifting old book ca n't find really \? find evens online stuff read faster , 're stuck reading linear flow start finish , unless jump ahead search book , though , flip faster read text screen usually nifty index ! partially agree often wish could grep something written deeper end everyone think need able make backup copy \? almost new software must installed hard disk , left originals backups think waste time , space , money , well makes tempting lend backups need install \? idea backup still holds original disk goes bad , 're luck 1 2 weeks , usual turn around time company send new set disks 'll without charge edward w hertz elee calpoly edu mein ! walk ! ! doctor
jvannes vms macc wisc edu subject long distance ir detection organization university wisconsin academic computing center distribution na lines 34 article cs sunysb edu , cs sunysb edu \( caleb \) writes could make interesting light sound could controlled directly position dancer stage , number dancers stage neat could even build spotlight follows dancer around stage ! tell us 're \? sounds like cool program eye point yet chose tracking method initial requirement design system locate dancer one eight zones across stage experiments detectors found difficult align get definite zone transition dancers stand still alot , ir signature goes away good thing signal proportional size warm body \( body part \) , velocity said body could useful detecting intensity dance gesture dancers also really hate wear little boxes batteries strapped bodies , really need emitting kind signal tracked current toy working program called amiga , used live ! video digitizer works video camera trained stage set zone within field view , object brighter threshold trigger event events midi objects sequences , amiga sounds graphic objects 's fun play , arcane , digitizer noisy still , 's appealing , dancers n't wear appliances , ots zone , , speaks midi , used control lights , n't build electronics 's done lighting video brightness contrast adjustments yet anything particularly useful artistic , hopes
gsulliva enuxha eas asu edu \( glenn sullivan \) subject need help video detection circuit summary build cheap video detector organization arizona state university lines 19 verity jack sns com \( steve verity \) writes trying build circuit detects presence video \( vs blank screen \) monitoring r , g , b outputs graphics card able detect presence single pixel 65 mhz , would mean detecting 15 ns pulse also able tell difference blank screen \( 300 mv \) dim screen \( say , around 310 mv \) oh yes , also needs cheap fact difference completely black completely white 650 mv wondering going amplify video signals make work try differential amplifier put back back diodes collectors restrict voltage swing 10 flow , 500 ohm collector rs , keep stray c 10 pf try run collector logic allen sullivan
kolstad cae wisc edu \( joel kolstad \) subject blue led 's organization u wisconsin madison college engineering distribution sci electronics lines 36 article ecf toronto edu gladman ecf toronto edu \( gladman aviv \) writes order emit blue light , semiconductor must band gap energy within region 2 6 2 8 electron volts according physical electronics prof , ca n't get led band gap 's n't find blue leds , matter , colour leds say blue leds ca n't found 've seen 'blue' leds sold , typical visible light led blue plastic covering n't emit much light um 1 \) professor plain wrong although blue leds one heck lot less efficient red ones 2 \) typical visible light leds n't really exist leds fairly narrow region \( since fermi energy around either side band gap falls exponentially , blah , blah \) source solid state electronic devices \( ben g , 3d ed , prentice hall \) might want check copyright date \) blue leds certainly exist , 've got bunch work research makes \( probably along companies big materials science , though advertise stuff like physics today , etc \) buy \( think \) , digikey \( definitely \) , plenty distributors actually , days get typical visible light led 's called rainbow led , 've forgotten makes \( advertise edn many trade rags , though \) combines reg , green , blue led one chip \( four leads \) nifty device , although 's probably fairly expensive joel kolstad
gsulliva enuxha eas asu edu \( glenn sullivan \) subject long distance ir detection summary results ir beacon tracking hardware tests organization arizona state university lines 15 sburton dres dnd ca \( stan burton \) writes would like able detect angular position \( low accuracy \) ir emitting source distance 100 meters \( better \) daylight ir source could emitting signature i'm leaning toward 30 khz square wave 50 duty cycle designed built hardware 1988 would output logic level \( 567 tone detector \) upon detecting 500 led 28 feet away used motorola , biased linearly dc feedback loop servo variations sunlight \( 60hz lights \) used lenses allen sullivan
myers hpfcso fc hp com \( bob myers \) subject power , signal surges home organization hewlett packard , fort collins , co , usa lines 18 though , 1500 real watts still n't impossible 125 150a 12v alternator , less alternator produces higher voltages anyone claiming 1500 real watts n't possible mobile dig back issues 73 \( , think , qst \) description mobile installation revered oms , recall , included heath \( dc \) amp \( model number sb something mind turning usual friday mush \) run full cw fairly regulary car 's electrical system modified , including rather seriously heavy duty alternator , installation done , possible installation source legendary story sitting car , paging wife department store pa systems ! bob myers kc0ew hewlett packard co opinions expressed systems technology div employer myers fc hp com fort collins , colorado sentient life form planet
myers hpfcso fc hp com \( bob myers \) subject wd 40 moisture repellant \( lead acid batteries concrete \? \) organization hewlett packard , fort collins , co , usa lines 17 please explain cement able maintain lower average temperature dirt sheesh hope david n't going upset sticking nose , goes \) n't average temperature key factor , rather better transferring heat \( presumably warmer ground temperature \) battery call question thermal conductivity , ability , thermal mass whatever like question concrete floor feel cooler surrounding dirt place hand \? bob myers kc0ew hewlett packard co opinions expressed systems technology div employer myers fc hp com fort collins , colorado sentient life form planet
myers hpfcso fc hp com \( bob myers \) subject switching ps questions organization hewlett packard , fort collins , co , usa lines 63 anyways , 've built basic converters pretty good results \( 80 efficiency \) i'm running problems try design build anything puts serious amps know done \( 5v 200a guts bench \) something puzzles i'm using simple choke storage element \( basicly toroid single winding \) commercial models use transformers many windings traced seem use winding usual error feedback others seem loose \? better , anyone full schematic one could get copy \? 'd love see manage squeeze much low volume \) commercial use magnetics energy storage 's handled big caps primary side , linearly regulated power supply would considered filter caps , coming right bridge transformer transformer 's primarily step voltage \( although inductance seen switch transistor primary side negligible , anyone 's said transistor either failing get one high enough breakdown voltage neglecting include diode across would tell actually , many transistors intended switcher use today diode built \) basic switched mode power supply operates something like \( somewhat simplified manner \) ac line rectified produce high voltage , less unregulated dc rail energy storage \( filter \) caps appear across rail , switching transistor transistor current primary side transformer , resulting stepped stepped pulses secondary , rectified filtered least one transformer 's outputs sampled fed back control circuit switching transistor , acts pulse width modulation \( pwm \) fashion control \( varying pulse width \) amount energy dumped primary , therefore voltage coming secondary remaining outputs may allowed simply run whatever value , less tracking regulated output , may additional linear regulation added may also note feedback regulated output pwm control \( typically ic \) done via direct electrical connection due various safety standards require primary secondary circuits electrically isolated often , feedback path involves optoisolator meet requirement transformer n't primary energy storage device designs , mean energy stored transformer ignored besides inductive kick giving switch transistor bad time \( noted \) , also need worry getting energy went transformer back , one way another designs , happens less automatically others , need take special care ensure transformer core n't , would disastrous results \( best left imagination ! \) \) i'm stretch imagination power supply designer hopefully , real one come along soon clean gross errors bob myers kc0ew hewlett packard co opinions expressed systems technology div employer myers fc hp com fort collins , colorado sentient life form planet
yxy4145 ucs usl edu \( yu \) subject one know biggest rom present \? organization univ southwestern la , lafayette lines 3 please replay yxy4145 usl edu thanks lot
cue bc ca \( james macphail \) subject help ! need thermal specs nntp posting host cue bc ca organization computer using educators b c , canada lines 19 i'm work mac iisi need information cpu motorola ad rev 1 , fear date characteristics cpu package type used iisi need theta \( jc \) thermal characteristic \( junction case thermal resistance \) plastic fe style package info , would appreciate sending email postings suffer days delay keen stuff , also interested accurate value typical power dissipation i'm assuming 2 25 watts \( using 2 6 w maximum 0 c decreased way pd drops ta increases \) manual chart power dissipation , 'd like know reads 25 c 40 c thanks reading ! james macphail cue bc ca \( bounce try james phy queensu ca \)
coyote datalog com \( e j \) subject lead acid batteries concrete \? organization datalog consulting , tucson , az lines 26 article 1993apr21 204556 21262 cronkite ocis temple edu camter28 astro ocis temple edu \( carter ames \) writes wondering one thing , actually two \( hope proper place post subject \) lead acid battery discharge become dead \( totally unuseable \) stored concrete floor \? decided bring battery lawn mower motorcycle unheated garage year , preserve went use noticed work , act like two terminals shorted asked friend said never , 'cause ruins , could n't tell 's concrete floor problem lead acid cells self discharge time even high quality cells \( gates instance \) discharge 50 60 3 5 month period time non sealed cells self discharge even faster battery completly charged left sitting , probably discharged past point cell occurs , many cases means ruined battery datalog consulting , tucson , az \( \) datalog com ! noao ! datalog com !
ugly uvic ca \( richard wong \) subject voice synth chips nntp posting host gw uvic ca organization university victoria , victoria , bc , canada lines 3 anyone know get voice synthesis chips \? \? looking something like ones time date stamp answering machines
tchannon black demon co uk \( tim \) subject lead acid batteries concrete \? reply tchannon black demon co uk distribution world x mailer revision 1 20 organization null lines 29 lead acid battery discharge become dead \( totally unuseable \) stored concrete floor \? people learn ! trouble ballast concrete every fool knows ballast resistors used discharge batteries furthermore silly store battery terminals downwards must done contact ballast seriously self discharge \( actual problem , stated others \) vary greatly certain types freaks show low self discharge fact seen ordinary automotive batteries effectively held full charge 2 years must possible garage heated , store batteries somewhere cooler freezing \( flat batteries freeze easily \) occasionally charge \( month \? \) even leave charge permanently \( special charger , unless know , seriously dangerous \) point automotive batteries things like electric generally designed repeatedly deep discharged life may greatly shorted early zero maintenance automotive batteries fact responded full discharge total failure shortly afterwards modern ones superb \( , miles counting \) tc e mail tchannon black demon co uk tchannon cix compulink co uk
alan apple com \( alan mimms \) subject uart needed \( really break detect \) organization apple computer , inc lines 43 article tau ceti isc br com , jimc tau ceti isc br com \( jim cathey \) wrote article alan 17 129 12 26 alan apple com \( alan mimms \) writes actually detecting break done watching character containing zero bits framing error resulting receipt true enough , means line stayed zero bit state even past stop bit time slot , basically indicates break special way detect break found 's magic signal generated uarts , etc 7 break detect popular part , number quirks , especially mode signetics rsr 2 break start detect rsr 3 break end detect two bits receiver status register enable interrupt either bits going high , also , one null put fifo per break detected simply best serial chip 've ever worked many less quirks , imho second best \( death 8250 devices ! \) thought knew lot serial devices perhaps keep big mouth shut sorry alan mimms \( alan apple com , ! apple ! alan \) opinions generally portable macintosh software group pretty worthless , apple computer art without engineering dreaming engineering without art calculating steven k roberts computing across america
infoserv com \( carlos \) subject analog switches balanced organization research corp x newsreader rusnews v0 98 lines 26 msf arizona edu \( michael fulbright \) writes trying build synchronous demodulator 've hit snag application want able change gain op amp amplifier 1 1 , via digital input obvious way 've come use analog switches adjust gain op amp analog switch experience 4066 unfortunately want switch ac signal goes 5v 5v , 4066 positive signals recently used 4066 switch signal simply ran 4066 supply , 8v case long analog input signal stays supply rails , 4066 work fine course , control \( logic \) input must use 8v logic low 8v logic high reference , either \( 1 \) driving logic must 4000 cmos supply \( 2 \) must provide kind voltage level shifting circuit 4066 control logic case , able use supply way carlos , infoserv com san jose , ca \( 408 \) 289
dmn kepler unh edu \( 's seeker born every minute \) subject flash leds sound \? organization utexas mail news gateway lines 29 nntp posting host cs utexas edu i'm looking circuit flash led response output walkman cassette player could \? n't want turn , want speak , per every beep put cassette tape would better use circuit based volume beeps cassette , better leds respond tone certain frequency \? easy way either \? i'm looking simplest circuit possible guess i'm asking sort color organ , quite let explain i'm going pattern beats \( beeps \) cassette tape tape 'd hear beep ! \( pause \) beep ! \( pause \) beep ! \( pause \) etc , speed increasing time goes want led \( probably two \) beeps cassette tape led , beep , would go real quick , generating strobe light sort effect beeps tape would turn effect blinking leds sound tape \( except background \) , leds would remain please help ! thanks , dana
mike diack mike staff tc umn edu subject blue led 's x xxmessage id dialup slip 1 87 gw umn edu x xxdate sun , 25 apr 93 03 04 58 gmt nntp posting host dialup slip 1 87 gw umn edu organization persian cat carpet co x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d7 lines 10 article inqmind bison mb ca baden de bari , baden inqmind bison mb ca writes anybody 'scoop' fairly low priced blue led 's \? \? \? 1 stock 25 214 1 3 4 25 213 1 29 vf 3 0 3 4 , , , mfg call 1 800 524 disclaimer dont know guys bar soap , price looks reasonable
rick cs sunysb edu \( richard \) subject luser ! organization state university new york , stony brook lines 23 nntp posting host cs sunysb edu article 1993apr23 sol ctr columbia edu seema madvlsi columbia edu \( seema varma \) writes hi , looking high speed converter \( least 8bits 150mhz \) research application paper january issue ieee solid state circuits mentions gaas , , 8bit dac anyone know find thing \? even somewhat slower si dac would needless say , looked conventional places \( , motorola , national , etc etc \) pointers would appreciated think video sells whole line used , normally graphics applications , either 50 75 ohm systems example , speeds 200 mhz , 360 mhz , 400 mhz seema varma rick , suny stony brook
zero cypher com \( \) subject laser vs bubblejet \? nntp posting host zero cypher com organization cypher technologies lines 18 article black demon co uk tchannon black demon co uk writes one wild difference two printers laserprinter page printer whilst inkjet line printer means laserprinter rotate graphic images whilst inkjet cannot drivers actually use facility \( also matter downloadable fonts \) tc e mail tchannon black demon co uk tchannon cix compulink co uk deskjet 500 thought 'd give little info deskjet 500 landscape mode like hp ca n't say though also deskjet downloadable fonts buy memory cart oh ! said laserjet rotate graphic image ! hmmmmm ! deskjet rotate text nevermind !
dmn kepler unh edu \( 's seeker born every minute \) subject blinking leds \? organization utexas mail news gateway lines 19 nntp posting host cs utexas edu buy blinking leds besides radio shack \? anyone sell blinking leds variable flash rate \? \( voltage guess \) , hertz \( pulse \) rate adjustable set \? 'd like blinking leds set approx 5 hz , 10 hz , 15 hz , 20 hz something like i'm interested 's flash rates like idea leds flasher circuits already hate soldering ics general guess n't hell lot patience thanks , dana
mmoss ic sunysb edu \( matthew moss \) subject build neural networks \? organization state university new york stony brook lines 11 distribution world nntp posting host libws4 ic sunysb edu subject says , though specify i'm looking solutions require purchasing specific chips , etc words , sort neural network circuit could build visit local r shack \? matthew david moss blessed pure heart , internet mmoss ic sunysb edu see god bitnet mmoss matthew 5 8
phage cshl org \( cshl \) subject disks copy protected organization cold spring harbor lab lines 24 nntp posting host phage cshl org think things missed overall first , anyone dos manual copy disk , copy anything \( hidden files dont go far dealing anyone dos ignorant \) hard disk crackers interested copying disks programmers get thrill going listings programs disable copy protection serial number dialog boxes , volume label checks , knows comes computer games people minority , however experience world people software , seems good majority people \( say 80 \) point copy friend 's program \( gee , really oughta try \) accept copy people normally would buy software package without , decided would n't matter last thing people responsible one computer people n't going spend 150 x computers software package install x times , especially things like dos upgrades fun yet \?
organization university illinois chicago , academic computer center u19250 uicvm uic edu subject multiple inputs pc lines 8 anyone offer suggestion problem \? several boards whose sole purpose decode dtmf tones send resultant ascii pc boards run serial interface need run boards simultaneously need able ho ok pc problem , hook 8 serial devices one pc , send data \( close \) \? help would greatly appreciated ! singla
kolstad cae wisc edu \( joel kolstad \) subject multiple inputs pc organization u wisconsin madison college engineering lines 31 article uicvm uic edu u19250 uicvm uic edu writes anyone offer suggestion problem \? several boards whose sole purpose decode dtmf tones send resultant ascii pc boards run serial interface need run boards simultaneously need able ho ok pc problem , hook 8 serial devices one pc , send data \( close \) \? help would greatly appreciated ! boards intelligent \? \( e , run microcontrollers \? \) easiest thing would another line says one boards talking pc line true , boards could hold send data n't perfect solution , though , since worry little making sure two boards n't decide talk exact time , think need hook board something speaks rs 232 actually n't hard \( expensive ! \) used , though assuming boards talk relatively slowly \( 9600 bps slower \) , pics coordinate things data \( really adding suggestion first paragraph system assumes board n't talk 1 8th time , long , since pic n't going able buffer , maybe 20 bytes ! \) might want check prices multi serial card pc , though recently bought boca research card \( 2 parallel ports , 4 rs 232 ports \) reasonable 85 joel kolstad
schuch phx mcd mot com \( john schuch \) subject self destructing copy protection vhs tape \? nntp posting host bopper2 phx mcd mot com organization motorola computer group , tempe , az lines 18 article klp quark klp doe carleton ca \( ka lun pang \) writes borrowed vhs tape friend warning begining saying attempts copy tape result destroying copy original found unbelievable playing recording two different processes however , 've never seen tape sold anywhere n't want take chance even 's small anyone experience kind self destructing video tapes \? always thought wanted send police tape ransom demand , send cnn video tape see wanted buy , would place small magnet near take spool tape would erased played would think check \? john
oucsace cs ohiou edu \( max corbin \) subject 1 bit converter organization ohio university cs dept , athens lines 14 upon time , long long ago news group , someone posted schematic 1 bit converter well found use little monster anyone still got text file \? flip flop , resistor cap , op amp think would extremely thankful anyone could mail schematic post news group beware light end tunnel may oncoming dragon c u oucsace cs ohiou edu
schuch phx mcd mot com \( john schuch \) subject blue led 's nntp posting host bopper2 phx mcd mot com organization motorola computer group , tempe , az distribution sci electronics lines 25 article ecf toronto edu gladman ecf toronto edu \( gladman aviv \) writes 's n't find blue leds , matter , colour leds say blue leds ca n't found 've seen 'blue' leds sold , typical visible light led blue plastic covering n't emit much light sorry charlie dozen , blue led 's bench right clear plastic case lit , absolutely blue hue sort summer day sky blue make mistake , blue buy digikey , circuit specialist , \( think \) , led , stanley , others current price around 2 50 small quantities also selling mail order company near future \( 4 weeks \) write details interested john
ez019654 othello ucdavis edu \( victoria milliron \) subject disks copy protected organization university california , davis x newsreader tin 1 1 pl3 lines 29 hmmm possibility software registration would distributor register copy software sold clerk sticks store pc asks buyers id later , pirated versions showed could tracked original purchaser addition copies sent distributors stores would vendor reg serial order track store piracy possible additional program security schemes would 1 monthly password changes necessitate user call registration \( inconvenient \) 2 taking dire legal action anyone caught \( expensive \) 3 encryption , crc check , self modifying code \( limited effectiveness \) 4 independent watchdog program installation setup config memory manager , etc would check main program 's crc \( effective methods best \) 5 watchdog circulating virus would trash cracked copies program offenders hard drive \( risky , probably illegal , certainly immoral \) new ideas n't terribly feasible implement presented , thought threw people could think variations might effective problem parallel port security keys \? n't used anything hardware key copy protection schemes , n't know drawbacks know companies make claim 're , 've seen cracks autodesk 3d studio floating around \( n't one n't ask \) heard port keys vamilliron othello ucd edu apologies , vi inhibits communication skills greatly
dasmith sunburn ec usf edu \( david smith \( ge \) \) subject laser vs bubblejet \? organization univ south florida , college engineering lines 14 nntp posting host sunburn usf edu inkjet bubblejet printers tech bubblejet trademarked cannon inkjet hp belive seen , bubblejet \( apple stylewriter cannon engine \) 360 dpi rated output output good quality paper , cheap paper gives bad results use sealed paper ink less dark toner \( apple personal laserwriter ntx \) , difference 300 1500 david smith like skate side ice dasmith ec usf edu n't , n't know anything csee usf edu either usf better know i'm \)
belvilad dunx1 ocs drexel edu \( belville \) subject flash leds sound \? organization drexel university , philadelphia lines 38 article kepler unh edu dmn kepler unh edu \( 's seeker born every minute \) writes i'm looking circuit flash led response output walkman cassette player could \? n't want turn , want speak , per every beep put cassette tape would better use circuit based volume beeps cassette , better leds respond tone certain frequency \? easy way either \? i'm looking simplest circuit possible guess i'm asking sort color organ , quite let explain i'm going pattern beats \( beeps \) cassette tape tape 'd hear beep ! \( pause \) beep ! \( pause \) beep ! \( pause \) etc , speed increasing time goes want led \( probably two \) beeps cassette tape led , beep , would go real quick , generating strobe light sort effect beeps tape would turn effect blinking leds sound tape \( except background \) , leds would remain please help ! thanks , dana try looking called radio electronics , may 1992 issue , page 41 circuit midi light controller andy andy belville 's taken long time , 've belvilad dunx1 ocs drexel edu fallen love beautiful woman
htsa aha nl \( h \) subject rams roms ale latches \( 8051 's \) organization van amsterdam , netherlands , e e c dept keywords 8051 , 373 , lines 21 article ucnv edu au jeff redgum ucnv edu au \( j \) writes hello , asked year ago , still looking getting sick use n't catch posting one year ago , presume like leave extra latch \? \( presume allready know couldnt question , could \? \) student project , nice device , 's integration one single \( 44 plcc think \) package contained rom , ram , lines programmable far recall , hooked directly mcs 51 series neat huh \? needs programming assembly , n't suitable project perhaps usefull \( future \) plans \? greetings !
victor inqmind bison mb ca \( victor laking \) subject self destructing copy protection vhs tape \? organization inquiring mind bbs 1 204 488 1607 lines 40 klp doe carleton ca \( ka lun pang \) writes hi folks , borrowed vhs tape friend warning begining attempts copy tape result destroying copy original found unbelievable playing recording two processes however , 've never seen tape sold anywhere n't want take chance even 's small anyone experience kind self destructing video tapes \? thanks advance ka lun pang \( k andy \) lost frequency time unit circ email klp doe carleton ca dod put bluntly , full paying tape playing tape difference whether output goes second vcr tv \( vcr tv reacts signal different story see messages pertaining macrovision copy protection \) order tape self destruct , would circuitry within tape case circuit would somehow magically determine output vcr connected circuit would erasing head actually anything pretty lame scare tactic \( 've seen something similar bbs sysop wanted , could message sent user 's end saying sending code format hd \) victor inqmind bison mb ca inquiring mind bbs , winnipeg , manitoba 204 488 1607
organization queen 's university kingston qucdn queensu ca subject disks copy protected lines 44 article fan ucdavis edu , ez019654 othello ucdavis edu \( victoria milliron \) says possibility software registration would distributor register copy software sold clerk sticks 's kind extra work one cannot expect store people imho would easier companies sell software cheaply possible sell customers detail manuals \( brain \) , quick reference books , books videos , paid support hot line \( 1 900 \) registered purchasers , part package seen many books teach people use dos , wp software suspect either users ca n't read manuals n't manuals either way , made btw books quite bit expensive reproduce 1 disk problem parallel port security keys \? n't used anything hardware key copy protection schemes , n't know drawbacks know companies make claim 're , popularity multitasking pseudo multitasking systems \( eg 5 , windoze , mack system 7 \) , pretty easy run debugger figure protection schemes tracing trapping application run time schemes like compressed software special would easy pray even beginner hackers hardware keys \( unless well designed totally transparent \) pain b using piece software windoze uses hardware key key printer stuff programs often unplugged software work properly 've seen cracks autodesk 3d studio floating around \( n't one n't ask \) heard port keys hacker remove modify code communicate port vamilliron othello ucd edu apologies , vi inhibits communication skills greatly k c lee elec eng grad student 5 , windoze , mack trademarked
ree88132 zach fit edu \( keith ledig \) subject needed 120v fan nntp posting host zach fit edu organization florida institute technology , melbourne , fl usa lines 14 someone tell find 3 watt 40 fans fit standard computer mounting size \) ie 3 1 8 inch wide 4 inches diagonal hole hole \( hole bolt screw goes found higher \( noisy \) fans 120 v 6 watt , need quite fan use 12 volt well , found 12 volt fans noisy also find 120 v fans quieter , blade shape lot dead fan quiet 's day long blades \( like fan blades engine jet way describe dead fan model actually 's dead , makes hideous rattle noise 's qualities void thanks
nelson sun soe clarkson edu \( russ nelson \) subject proposal alt fan tesla organization clarkson university , ny lines 4 nntp posting host cheetah ece clarkson edu discussion nikolai tesla \( else \? \? \) russ nelson sun soe clarkson edu businesses persuade governments force
subject pc board layout help cunyvm bitnet organization city university new york lines 8 hi , questions laying pcb using dos great program question laying traces thickness \? mainly designing low voltage low current boards micro controller apps pad sizes resistors \? turning commercial pcb maker produce 1 's boards wondering minimum distance traces well info would great thanks anton
amdahl com \( david sharpe \) subject pink noise distribution sci electronics organization amdahl corporation , sunnyvale ca lines 6 pink noise white noise equal amounts frequencies cases around 20 3 3k hz range pink white used adjust room dynamics stuff like eq 's market pink noise built audio control know c 101
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject hi volt battery organization u toronto zoology lines 29 article news cso uiuc edu mrcnext cso uiuc edu \( martin johnson \) writes need small battery powered hi voltage capacitive discharge supply deliver 6 250 volts ubiquitous camera flash circuit want , cant get mine apart without breaking charlie brett 's suggestion buy one disposable flash cameras , use film , take thing apart good one note , though , wo n't get particularly precise voltage thing , may single point design wo n't adapt well nominal operation things easy dismantle key piece information advance film one , winding film cassette cassette factory , camera made darkroom needed dismantling 's standard film , take cassette processing camera store people bring one rip apart , toss film cassette processed bin , throw battery one rest camera another take apart , get aa alkaline battery \( still fair bit life \) kinds little bits pieces camera expect could even load use camera really determined svr4 resembles high speed collision henry spencer u toronto zoology svr3 sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
camter28 astro ocis temple edu \( carter ames \) subject lead acid batteries part 2 ! ! ! organization temple university lines 40 nntp posting host astro ocis temple edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 thought first thread hilarious , goes another post background information happened poor batteries one year , left batteries garage garage unheated left places needed one riding lawnmower \( lux \) one motorcycle battery riding lawnmower 3 4 years old , one cycle batteries new , one around 5 years old upon spring time , discovered batteries dead , needed worked properly , except older ones , replaced halfway summer \( originally stored garage , think remember dad charging spring \) last year , decided bring basement , two parts one dirt brick , concrete brought three , discovered spring , \( 15 days ago \) batteries dead , put charger , charger said amp meter read around 1 , 000 , 000 , 000 \( words , pinned \) internal circut tripped , went batteries realizing still 2 gigantic batteries , also lead acid , decided put charger \( sitting around 1 half years , brick dirt part \) noticed needed small charge , around 2 hours trickle tested using local gas station giving jump starts , worked fine around 25 'em leads believe one several things 1 \) bought really tty batteries last year \( sorta true \) 2 \) concrete something discharge batteries 3 \) enough moisture short terminals room concrete , 4 \) dirt room able absorb moisture air better concrete \( btw , almost waterski dirt room \) ideas \? could aliens , anything possible
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject wd 40 moisture repellant \( lead acid batteries concrete \? \) organization u toronto zoology lines 27 article hpfcso fc hp com myers hpfcso fc hp com \( bob myers \) writes n't average temperature key factor , rather better transferring heat \( presumably warmer ground temperature \) battery uh , bob , battery warmer ground temperature \? time scales question , considerably reduced temperature swings several feet underground , n't going major temperature difference battery 's sitting question concrete floor feel cooler surrounding dirt place hand \? temperature hand , unlike battery , determined balance internal heat production external heat loss 're feeling greater rate heat loss object \( hand \) kept much warmer surroundings case object significant internal heat production , affect quickly comes equilibrium surroundings \( started equilibrium \) wo n't affect final temperature reason , affects whether freeze whether water freeze svr4 resembles high speed collision henry spencer u toronto zoology svr3 sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
jhwhit01 ulkyvx louisville edu subject disks copy protected lines 21 nntp posting host ulkyvx louisville edu organization university louisville article ms uky edu , msunde01 mik uky edu \( mark underwood \) writes article 1r76sbinnkap flop engr orst edu noeler xanth cs orst edu \( eric richard noel \) writes hate hard copy manuals , would rather docs online want copy program , usually faster convenient sifting old book ca n't find mho , prefer hardcopy books three four open spread across bed \( next desk dorm \) reference using program full screen windows help things come closest good line documentation 've seen , generally n't detailed enough would probably take large amount space \( even compressed \) premium system fact , manuals primary reason bought borland 's c compiler instead using one lab licensed \( lab , course \) 've got shelf full books help i'm stuck \) \) also much easier corrections hard copy manual jeff white jhwhit01 ulkyvx louisville edu
belvilad dunx1 ocs drexel edu \( belville \) subject circuit list \( locations \) organization drexel university , philadelphia lines 73 list get combing one day drexel completely board circuits pretty easy done novice basically stuff could prove useful without sit either design buy stuff \( good word , i'm tired right \) hope enjoy ! additions send 'll add list n't particular magazine , interesting ! radio electronics year month page article name discription 92 april 31 car audio amplifier \( 270 watts \) may 41 midi light controller \( light control music input \) 47 solid state relay 50 digital altimeter june 53 electronic thermostat 91 audio sweep marker generator \( frequency response \) april 43 line power 12 volts \( 12 vdc 110 vac \) \( 40 watts \) june 39 electronic compass august 55 speaker protector sept 33 solid state tesla coil oct 39 vocal effects mixer nov 58 music hold \( play music someone hold phone \) dec 47 thd 53 battery tool 63 electronic fuse 90 jan 35 acoustic field generator 45 phone activated audio circuit feb 31 frequency probe 37 radar detector tester march 31 universal laboratory power supply april 33 morse detector 43 capacitance adaptor \( capacitance add dmm \) 46 solid state wiper control may 37 universal \( tv \) july 31 digital dashboard \( car \) august 41 digital pressure gauge sept 33 vocal stripper \( take away music \) oct 37 rocket altimeter \( model rockets \) dec 33 frequency counter 89 jan 55 carrier current audio transmitter \( audio house 's wiring \) 62 plasma display globe 70 advanced control system feb 55 carrier current receiver march 51 hi fi audio amp house car \( high power \) may 41 r extender \( extender infra red remotes \) july 31 light beam communication 38 digital capacitance meter nov 39 r c decade box 43 digital compass dec 37 programmable property guard 88 july 41 l c meter part 1 august 50 l c meter part 2 87 nov 107 electronic lock 86 sept 41 stun gun june 55 click pop filter stereo \( removes clicks pops play old lps \) could see , order circuit kits , finished unfinished order parts ca n't get normal store andy belville 's taken long time , 've belvilad dunx1 ocs drexel edu fallen love beautiful woman
gsulliva enuxha eas asu edu \( glenn sullivan \) subject build neural networks \? summary build neural net hardware organization arizona state university lines 16 mmoss ic sunysb edu \( matthew moss \) writes words , sort neural network circuit could build visit local r shack \? marvin minsky \( hi \) writes building \? 1950s using motor driven vary weights reported circuits worked even tho wiring errors \( say robust \? \) cells vary light cmos ttl gates provide somewhat linear yet somewhat limiter transfer function often used low power gates , earlier gates , gain x8 leds probably output enough light easily control cds cells , even paper dark light regions , controlled pencil eraser , could also control cds resistance high input resistance cmos gates may let charge paper mylar caps serve memory allen sullivan
snakemail hut fi \( h \) subject flash leds sound \? organization helsinki university technology , finland lines 20 nntp posting host lk hp 11 hut fi reply dmn kepler unh edu 's message 24 apr 1993 09 05 22 0500 article kepler unh edu dmn kepler unh edu \( 's seeker born every minute \) writes would better use circuit based volume beeps cassette , better leds respond tone certain frequency \? easy way either \? i'm looking simplest circuit possible guess i'm asking sort color organ , quite let explain look information 567 tone decoder chip easy use chip detecting sound certain frequency need one 567 led want control chip take voltage levels , casette gives radio shack archer semiconductor reference guide gives good information use chip simplest way go chip costs something like 1 2 hut fi ! law hut fi ! jams force breaks , ! needed replacing anyway text provided without express implied warranty
shiekh trieste \( andy shiekh \) subject 2 silver solder organization utexas mail news gateway lines 16 nntp posting host cs utexas edu seen existance electronics solder 2 silver content seems good wetting anyone tell used \? \( silver expensive metal \) andy anwar shiekh feel obliged believe international centre god endowed us sense , theoretical physics reason , intellect intended us trieste , italy forgo use \( shiekh bitnet \) galileo
jaeger ka sub org ! stephan \( stephan jaeger \) subject study audio control engineer u organization stephan 's lines 32 hi , folks ! n't know whether right newsgroup , question completely wrong group , could mail right name correct newsgroup \? friend mine studying electronics technical university karlsruhe germany since one year wants know whether possibilities study audio control engineering u anybody know get information studies u \? could send information like \( e mail \) adresses universities , quality studies , \? possible e mail universities directly get information \? universities send information via e mail \? please could answer via e mail , n't read newsgroup regularly thanks advance stephan jaeger space rent contact stephan jaeger , 40 , 7500 karlsruhe 21 49 721 stephan jaeger ka sub org
hpcc01 corp hp com \( lee say eng \) subject organization hp corporate notes server lines 12 try sgs , achieve 256 current level \( \) , circuit sgs thomson smart power manual , order code manual 1 best regards , moi , hong email mal hp com hewlett packard malaysia free trade zone , tel 604 830 611 fax 604 , malaysia
subject wd 40 moisture repellant \( lead acid batteries c lure latrobe edu au \( byrnes , graham \) 1993apr22 dmu ac uk 1993apr23 6151 titan inmos co uk sasrer cinnamon organization la trobe university reply sasrer unx sas com 's message fri , 23 apr 1993 14 46 23 gmt x news reader vms news 1 24 lines 23 sasrer cinnamon sasrer unx sas com writes services offered engine cleaning \( remove oil sell car \) unfortunately , high pressure washer would use one several miles shop one occasion washing engine , would start water would gotten distributor \( would put plastic bag around try minimize \) , around spark plug wires , etc would nearly impossible try wipe areas dry rag usual solution carry wd 40 , car would n't start spray likely areas would start first time definately gets car going , wd 40 highly flammable explosive even right conditions , like vapour sealed inside distributor eg contact points tend arc tiny bit \) saw alternator points cover blow completely motorcycle restored life wd 40 fun watch \( honda mr 50 cover held large rubber , n't really big blast \) graham b ps serious aside , apparently also conductive , best exercise caution around mains wiring
speth cats ucsc edu \( james \) subject development tools 8051 \? organization university california santa cruz lines 9 nntp posting host ucsc edu could someone point toward source \( ftp bbs whatever \) development tools 8051 microprocessor specifically looking macintosh cross assembler also , mailing list dedicated discussing 8051 \? thanks james speth email pgp compatible public key speth cats ucsc edu
nagle netcom com \( john nagle \) subject subliminal message flashing tv organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) distribution usa lines 24 lihan ccwf cc utexas edu \( bruce g bostwick \) writes well , yes image ca n't screen less 1 30 second , mixture images 's 90 field supposed 10 addition could overlaid one field , producing overall effect sluggish discrete image projected 1 300 second 1950s idea supposedly , splicing frame buy popcorn upped popcorn sales movie theatre big flap time congress involved talk making illegal general agreement networks years ago , junior person advertising agency invented subliminal projection one commercial went tape single frame messages aired stations , tech one station , previewing tape , noticed flicker looked tape frame frame find defect big flap fcc notified commercial pulled press reports embarassed ad agency could probably find press reports via dialog wanted everybody vcrs , 's likely anybody could get away tv john nagle
oscar oscar austin ibm com \( oscar r mitchell \) subject development tools \? organization ibm , austin lines 37 article darkstar ucsc edu speth cats ucsc edu \( james \) writes could someone point toward source \( ftp bbs whatever \) development tools 8051 microprocessor specifically looking macintosh cross assembler also , mailing list dedicated discussing 8051 \? thanks james speth email pgp compatible public key speth cats ucsc edu question tools 6502 derivative processor processor \( designed western design center \) thanks , oscar oscar r mitchell ibm advanced workstations systems division risc system 6000 \( tm \) future systems hardware architecture design group mail stop zip road austin , texas usa phone \( 512 \) 823 0000 ibm 678 usa fax \( 512 \) 838 ibm vnet oscar ibm internet oscar oscar austin ibm com usa internet oscar austin ibm com include standard disclaimer speak ibm , ibm corporation advanced workstations systems division risc system 6000 \( tm \) future systems hardware architecture design group usa internet oscar austin ibm com
world std com \( richard pierce \) subject pink noise organization world public access unix , brookline , distribution sci electronics lines 34 article juts ccc amdahl com amdahl com \( david sharpe \) writes pink noise white noise equal amounts frequencies cases around 20 3 3k hz range pink white used adjust room dynamics stuff like eq 's market pink noise built audio control know c 101 wrong , wrong , completely wrong \( little misleading , \) white noise random noise whose energy density constant constant bandwidth , 5 hz wide band 20 hz precisely amount energy 5 hz band 20 khz pink noise random noise whose energy density constant constant bandwidth thus , 5 wide band noise 20 hz \( whose bandwidth 1 hz \) contain energy 5 wide band 20 khz \( whose bandwidth 1000 hz wide \) white noise often used spectrum constant , pink noise used audio type real time whose frequency dependent \( often described 1 3 octave 1 2 octave terminology \) white noise , relative pink noise , energy high frequencies \( rate equal 3 db per octave \) pink noise , relative white noise , energy low frequencies \( rate , , 3 db octave \) dick pierce loudspeaker software consulting 17 street , \( 508 \) 433 9183 \( voice fax \)
mercury cs uregina ca \( chad \) subject asynchronous receiver recommendations \? organization university regina , sk , canada lines 9 looking suitable uart project require stand alone device \( e cpu controlled \) receive 1200 baud rs232 also nice extra would received data buffer please reply info thanks , chad university regina dept computer science
fmg alpha smi med pitt edu \( filip gieszczykiewicz \) subject self destructing copy protection vhs tape \? summary 's mean organization medical informatics , pittsburgh , pa usa lines 35 klp doe carleton ca \( ka lun pang \) writes hi folks , borrowed vhs tape friend warning begining attempts copy tape result destroying copy original found unbelievable playing recording two processes however , 've never seen tape sold anywhere n't want take chance even 's small greetings 3 types warnings \( us \) tapes 1 \) hologram glued across seam 2 halves tape message usually reads , seal broken , must buy tape 2 \) standard macrovision warning , copies tape 3 \) case extended message average consumer \( tm \) states even attempting copy tape destroy original n't believe sue misinformation cases like \) take care p course , 3 utter bs average consumer \( tm \) believes heck , mom returned tape without watching afraid something might happen \) filip 'll buy vowel gieszczykiewicz best e mail fmgst pitt edu ideas mine 0 99 respond ! ! ! ! live ee major , , programming , sca , assorted dreams 200mb drive linux 100mb ms dos 100mb ms dos worried \)
wkuvx1 bitnet subject cable tvi interference organization western kentucky university , bowling green , ky lines 44 article 1993apr23 rwwa com , witr rwwa com \( robert withrow \) writes article rave larc nasa gov , watson nimbus larc nasa gov \( catherine watson \) writes gave year letters phone calls got impression fcc powerless cable company correct situation n't formal action citizen take requires fcc , least , generate paperwork \? robert withrow , tel 1 617 598 , fax 1 617 598 , net witr rwwa com r w withrow associates , 21 railroad ave , 1821 usa interested , fcc indeed care cable leakage , particularly aviation nav band , leakage causing interference services part 76 611 details specific limits acceptable leakage , measurement technique clearly document problem , measurement technique \( signal level meter normal approach , remember correct measurement data per meter \) fax mail details mr john wong cable branch , fcc 1919 st nw wash dc , copy letter local cable company , get results fact cable company probably start treating much better realize figured get attention important document case relates applicable rules however cable company required least check every complaint leakage must file commission maintain premises yearly measurement report details results leakage testing remember , call cable company first , give chance work correct problem contacting commission business measuring cable system leakage via airborne method wkuvx1 bitnet aka chris scott telco \( 502 \) 745
tell cs unc edu \( stephen tell \) subject subliminal message flashing tv organization university north carolina chapel hill lines 25 nntp posting host cs unc edu article hpfcso fc hp com myers hpfcso fc hp com \( bob myers \) writes hi research subliminal suggestion psychology paper , read one researcher flashed hidden messages tv screen 1 200ths second possible \? might even vector \( \) display , case lower limit image time anyone 's guess \( probably phosphor persistence limited \) back high school worked lab assistant bunch experimental psychologists bell labs visual perception memory experiments , used vector type displays , 1 refresh rates common case 1 sec quite practical , experimenters probably sure 5 milliseconds , 4 6 either bob myers kc0ew myers fc hp com steve steve tell tell cs unc edu h 919 968 5l estes park unc chapel hill computer science w 919 962 nc engineering lot like art circuits like , like army manuals , like 's guide galaxy
wfu edu \( jeffrey \) subject disks copy protected organization wake forest university lines 9 nntp posting host ac wfunet wfu edu interesting thread follow obviously group n't intended forum discussion piracy anyone seen estimates lost revenue due pirates \? wondering piracy rampant home corporate computing environments would tend think business environment piracy major contributor form lost revenue many companies purchase copies software package employees internally distribute owned site license ! guys think \?
jeh cmkrnl com subject blue led 's distribution sci electronics organization kernel mode systems , san diego , ca lines 14 article ecf toronto edu gladman ecf toronto edu \( gladman aviv \) writes 's n't find blue leds , matter , colour leds say blue leds ca n't found 've seen 'blue' leds sold , typical visible light led blue plastic covering blue leds sold street milky white plastic , fyi , putting filter typical visible light led \( presumably meaning non blue one \) wo n't produce blue light filter block light , ca n't generate wavelengths n't start jamie hanrahan , kernel mode systems , san diego ca internet jeh cmkrnl com uucp uunet ! cmkrnl ! jeh cis 74140 , 2055
pat fegmania wustl edu \( pat niemeyer \) subject self destructing copy protection vhs tape \? organization washington university saint louis , mo usa lines 22 reply pat fegmania wustl edu nntp posting host fegmania wustl edu originator pat fegmania schuch phx mcd mot com \( john schuch \) writes always thought wanted send police tape ransom demand , send cnn video tape see wanted buy , would place small magnet near take spool tape would erased played would think check \? exceptionally cool idea would work \? strong field needed \? anyone \? pat fegmania wustl edu c c , nancy , christmas carols kind stereo hell \( \) chris , abc news ` \( 314 \) 851
saturn wwc edu \( mark \) subject 1 bit converter article saturn 1993apr26 organization walla walla college , college place , wa lines 18 article 1993apr24 oucsace cs ohiou edu oucsace cs ohiou edu \( max corbin \) writes upon time , long long ago news group , someone posted schematic 1 bit converter well found use little monster anyone still got text file \? flip flop , resistor cap , op amp think would extremely thankful anyone could mail schematic post news group hmmm piece copper wire \? 0 5v input range , standard ttl output , instantaneous conversion time ! \( humor impaired mark internet wwc edu 252 hall amateur radio college place , wa 1 509 527
schmidt auvax1 adelphi edu subject wd 40 moisture repellant \( lead acid batteries c lines 32 nntp posting host auvax1 organization adelphi university , garden city ny article 1993apr25 latrobe edu au , lure latrobe edu au \( byrnes , graham \) writes sasrer cinnamon sasrer unx sas com writes services offered engine cleaning \( remove oil sell car \) unfortunately , high pressure definately gets car going , wd 40 highly flammable explosive even right conditions , like vapour sealed inside distributor eg contact points tend arc tiny bit \) saw alternator points cover blow completely motorcycle restored life wd 40 fun watch \( honda mr 50 cover held large rubber , n't really big blast \) graham b ps serious aside , apparently also conductive , best exercise caution around mains wiring , years ago , almost became victim squirted fair amount old model 15 acting , turned motor starting contacts broke mighty spectacular almost got , plastic \( old ones safety glass \) cover , etc flew across room , several people room almost heart attacks beware explosive properties wd40 vapor john h schmidt , p e internet schmidt auvax1 adelphi edu technical director , phone days \( 212 \) 456 adelphi university evenings \( 516 \) 877 6400 garden city , new york fax \( 212 \) 456
schmidt auvax1 adelphi edu subject subliminal message flashing tv lines 58 nntp posting host auvax1 organization adelphi university , garden city ny distribution usa article dse netcom com , nagle netcom com \( john nagle \) writes lihan ccwf cc utexas edu \( bruce g bostwick \) writes well , yes image ca n't screen less 1 30 second , mixture images 's 90 field supposed 10 addition could overlaid one field , producing overall effect sluggish discrete image projected 1 300 second 1950s idea supposedly , splicing frame buy popcorn upped popcorn sales movie theatre big flap time congress involved talk making illegal general agreement networks talk fcc rules 73 subliminal perception \( \) see public notice , fcc 74 78 , dated january 24 , 1974 , 44 fcc 2d , 1016 39 fr , january 29 , 1974 \( b \) see fcc information bulletin , subliminal projection \( sic , least rules service copy rules \) , dated november 1977 since n't either old copies federal register information bulletin around , ca n't tell ca n't tv \( radio \) seem remember hot subject late '70s practically speaking , dont much trouble seeing one frame mtv , badly scratched torn single frames films , 's contrast single frame surrounding material significant never believed one frame type sp real hand , coca cola brand \( insert desired name \) beer cans conveniently placed brand name visible movie watched , 's another story , tv station network paid beer company privilege , promotional consideration paid \) similar message included program tv station bought movie already edited way film company n't get payment brand visibility film company got , n't run message years ago , junior person advertising agency invented subliminal projection one commercial went tape single frame messages aired stations , tech one station , previewing tape , noticed flicker looked tape frame frame find defect big flap fcc notified commercial pulled press reports embarassed ad agency could probably find press reports via dialog wanted everybody vcrs , 's likely anybody could get away tv john nagle john h schmidt , p e internet schmidt auvax1 adelphi edu technical director , phone days \( 212 \) 456 adelphi university evenings \( 516 \) 877 6400 garden city , new york fax \( 212 \) 456
mike diack mike staff tc umn edu subject programmer x xxdate mon , 26 apr 93 17 13 26 gmt nntp posting host dialup slip 1 77 gw umn edu organization persian cat carpet co x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d7 lines 11 vainly looked devices capable dealing nec dsp chip dont require taking mortgage , decided roll difficult task , given timing relationships set databook one thing bothers , 21 volt pulse sure , little buck step converter achieve \( otherwise 5 volt widget \) know dont need nearly pulse length q anyone come efficient programming algorithm \? cheers mike
billn hpcvaac cv hp com \( bill nelson \) subject power , signal surges home organization hewlett packard company , corvallis , oregon usa lines 23 wb8foz skybridge scl cwru edu \( david lesher \) writes \( postings bnr seem bogus addresses \? nosubdomain nodomain bnr com bounce makes rather difficult reply \) go uunet often problem uunet often problems return paths deleted oh , importantly , amount transmitted rf , short transmitter size small house , likely cause equipment failures describe looking two different problems yep bill
sean oliver mindlink bc ca \( sean oliver \) subject channels organization mind link ! british columbia , canada lines 13 live british columbia , canada cable company use called rogers cable anyone know scrambling techniques , ways getting around \? suggestions might use \? sean oliver internet address mindlink bc ca mindlink ! bbs \( 604 \) 576 1412
shorty nevada edu \( david \) subject pink noise nntp posting host helios nevada edu organization university nevada system computing services distribution sci electronics lines 31 article juts ccc amdahl com amdahl com \( david sharpe \) writes pink noise white noise equal amounts frequencies cases around 20 3 3k hz range pink white used adjust room dynamics stuff like eq 's market pink noise built audio control know c 101 regards wrote , one adjust room dynamics stuff like \? asked professor question last week n't really know since pink noise believed due surface states \( say , surface silicon 's lack bond \) act traps nearby , since happens low frequencies \( high frequencies n't able trap electrons \) , compensate \? seems would n't able compensate pink noise seen pink noise feature , however , many , wondering suppose compensate noise pink noise due man made noise like power lines , , coupling , etc information , would appreciated hope n't sound drawn thanx david \( shorty helios nevada edu \)
iastate edu \( ian schmidt \) subject development tools \? organization iowa state university , ames , ia lines 15 article austin ibm com oscar oscar austin ibm com \( oscar r mitchell \) writes request mac cross development stuff apple sells cross developer macintosh called \( 's intended use apple iigs computer , uses \) oscar r mitchell ian schmidt two meg software iastate edu aol com choose path 's author , , clear choose free co author n peart , 1980 coder musician gs irc
fuchs tsar princeton edu \( ira h fuchs \) subject removing battery corrosion originator news nimaster nntp posting host palace princeton edu reply fuchs tsar princeton edu organization princeton university lines 4 readily available solvent good job removing corrosion collects battery terminals \( usually cathode \) using alkaline batteries \( accurately , using long time \) \?
shade princeton edu \( john scott jr \) subject get rid flyback whine \? originator news nimaster nntp posting host shade princeton edu organization princeton university lines 10 recently took apart color sony tv clean volume pushbuttons put beast back together , flyback whine got much louder easy fix \? part resonating \? heard rumors spray fix noise simple thing tv repairman fix \? thanks , scott
squish endor uucp \( shishin yamada \) subject atari 2600 processors organization aiken computation lab , harvard university lines 71 article sunb ocs mq edu au ifarqhar laurel ocs mq edu au \( ian farquhar \) writes article 1993apr21 599 das harvard edu squish endor uucp \( shishin yamada \) writes atari 2600 used 6502 cpu , like entire 8 bit line \( 400 , 800 , 1200 , 1400 , 1440 , 130xe , computers , well 5200 game machine \) wrong , 6507 sorry ian , n't several years n't seen quite years saw post lagging quite days , thought 'd toss 0 02 assume 6507 functionally similar 6502 \( also made mos technologies \? \) really versed \( 6502 based \) atari computers 2600 came later 2600 extra asic chips basically modified graphics chips pia 's joysticks one chip \( asic sense word understood \) tia \( sometimes known 6526 , although manufacturers list cia complex interface adapter \) tia stands television interface adapter , handles sound , paddles minimal video hardware 2600 possessed atari computers , cia chip refer sounds awful lot like \( color television interface adapter \) chip used early models later atari upgraded \( graphics \) colorful literature stated might stood george , developer chip also standard ram , , timer \( riot \) , plus voltage regulator \( memory serves \) 555 timer 's later model 2600 might incorporated many chips one , weight machines part count decreased lot years according servicing documentation 2600 change much funny , old new model old one significantly heavier additionally , think 2600 used 2k , 4k , 8k rom games roms mapped upper 4k 6507 's address space 2k 4k games fine , later 8k 16k games needed bank switching atari \( others \) made much huge cartridges idea much ram work , would hazard guess 2 4k ram sorry , way line first microcontroller built based chipset 128 bytes onboard easy work \( small 2k board eprom \) wrong , 128 bytes ram riot multiply mapped page 0 \( pseudo registers \) page 1 \( stack \) , also throughout bottom 4k memory tia registers also sat address space 128 bytes ram somewhat limiting , later cartridges also carried ram , interesting atari provided write line cart managed mapping reads ram one address range , writes another , time scheme ate scarce rom address space ian
rcstage1 urc tue nl \( guido klemans \) subject disks copy protected organization eindhoven university technology lines 31 nntp posting host urc tue nl article fan ucdavis edu ez019654 othello ucdavis edu \( victoria milliron \) writes ez019654 othello ucdavis edu \( victoria milliron \) subject disks copy protected date sat , 24 apr 1993 22 16 29 gmt hmmm problem parallel port security keys \? n't used anything hardware key copy protection schemes , n't know drawbacks know companies make claim 're , 've seen cracks autodesk 3d studio floating around \( n't one n't ask \) heard port keys put another computer port instead key , hack reading happens 've told , 've never seen done think 's possible 'd need hardware knowledge software read port ! vamilliron othello ucd edu apologies , vi inhibits communication skills greatly guido klemans internet rcstage1 urc tue nl valid 16 may 1993 carefully , say ' michelle
billn hpcvaac cv hp com \( bill nelson \) subject power , signal surges home organization hewlett packard company , corvallis , oregon usa lines 55 dplatt ntg com \( dave platt \) writes kind power must putting cause effects \? affected equipment 100 feet road might couple hundred watts , sound kicking sound tv stereo speakers direct rf rectification requires mighty strong carrier ! 've heard powerful triggering car idling , would stall engine pulling battery voltage would take lot sounds like radio equipment actually shut completely goes standby situation suspect stories , stories voltage sucked far try someones car , vehicle idle , car stall \? , car crank well , engine might stall idle low start extra current drawn , idle speed drop alternator loads engine compensate increased requirement resolution problem matter power company , fcc , \? ultimately 's likely problem resolve , i'm afraid fcc n't pay much attention citizen complains rfi \( 've heard \) 'll send pamphlet describing apply corrective measures talking power company might help might able install filtering devices service panel \( recommend type could installed licensed electrician \) transmitter going affecting house power surges occurring , due another cause transmitter unfortunately , 's fair chance enough signal picked house wiring simple service panel filter wo n't suffice may need install heavy duty rfi filters power connections affected equipment probably much problem often toroid coils power leads solve part interference problem solve internal equipment deficiencies problem occurs regularly , may need stake street question , watch trucks cars big antennae driving time interference occurs identify vehicle transmitting , may able contact owner complain probably transmitter fault person amateur , probably willing help explain person causing interference bill
billn hpcvaac cv hp com \( bill nelson \) subject power , signal surges home organization hewlett packard company , corvallis , oregon usa lines 17 drand spinner osf org \( douglas rand \) writes hams legally run 1500 watts unlikely , however , ham would running kind power car ham rigs possible either 'd need 300 amp alternator amplifier see need slow downgrade , hit push talk button well 100 amps anyway transmissions generally short interval battery would supply rest course , transmitted much , would run battery really would much brake even 50 efficiency , 1500 watts would consume 4 horsepower bill
hugo cats ucsc edu \( hugo calendar \) subject universal phones days \? organization university california santa cruz lines 9 distribution world nntp posting host ucsc edu i'm wondering tote american touch tone phone around sweden germany 's dc powered , buy special adapter europe question general electronics work buy different wall plug refit \( i'm sure 'd \) , would trick \? thanks , hugo
billn hpcvaac cv hp com \( bill nelson \) subject power , signal surges home organization hewlett packard company , corvallis , oregon usa lines 72 brian ucsd edu \( brian \) writes 's possible 's ham radio transmitter 're hearing , n't likely every bit signal n't go antenna wasted , far ham concerned , hams radiated signal would cause problem technically competent ensure n't waste signal possibly avoid get ham license , pass government exam tests point , among others however , could hearing radio transmitter sure lots services operators required technically competent citizens band \( cb \) , example nothing amateur radio tests requires technical competence simple matter memorize questions answers however , said , hams know spend quite bit time gaining technical skill listen interference hear voices clearly , almost certainly ham radio , might well cb record n't count bit , could take tape local ham operator 's house ask opinion 're hearing communities cannot legally however , ask ham listen interference occurs specific time day , would possible scheduling nothing else , could invite ham transmit driveway , see interferes , probably need equipment worked make immune rf interference ham radio interference committee whose members willing help resolve interference complaints look phone book , ask local ham radio store , call fcc contact info fcc may , may , information enough without getting calls information nothing else , call city offices police department \( general business number \) name local ham contact 's ham , 's likely willing help get rid problem , would signal 's wasting n't , interference committee fcc may able suggest solutions see concept wasted signal erroneous rig transmitting properly , chance interference \( exception harmonic television interference \) greatest since putting strongest signal unfortunately case transmitting station operating perfectly legally could possibly cause piece consumer audio tv equipment manufacturer consumer equipment cut corners one little section device would n't affect one person thousand , bites often pennies knowledgeable person , perhaps even person operating transmitter 're hearing unfortunately , consumer equipment poorly designed \( btw hams allowed amplifiers cb n't illegal ham amplifier n't compute \) , mobile radio mobile rigs could power 1500 watt amplifier bill
squish endor uucp \( shishin yamada \) subject laser vs bubblejet \? organization aiken computation lab , harvard university lines 56 thought would add 0 02 deskjet thread got first one college 5 years ago 've happy hp user deskwriter macintosh past 5 years got one months release got software revision 1 0a \( i'm rev 3 1 family \( sister father \) purchased dw 's seeing mine go one year \( stuck trusty imagewriter ii 's \) original dw gone 5 years moderate personal use would say gone least 15 , 000 sheets , around one \( small \) ink cartridge every 3 months brother might take dw \( i'm probably gonna give \) , looking upgrade color dw chief advantages disadvantages 've found years advantages quick \( 2 3 ppm \) , quiet \( roomate sleep 's printing \) , appletalk \( unfortunately original n't , look buy used home phonenet appletalk connectors , home , use dad 's one dw ! \) , cheap \( run 300 \) btw , upgrade older dw 's color appletalk , dunno hp still upgrades , received many offers \( n't ned however \) also , crisp laser quality output wonder \( used really impress imagewriter dot matrix people much , charge 0 25 per sheet stop college dorm neighbors bothering hours night \) disadvantages ink used hard find , n't cheap , n't originally water proof hp done wonders ink \( dunno 's still toxic \) , still running \( run around damp boston rain , get completely soaked \) ink runs 14 15 small carts \( get mine tek chicago , think 're 12 \) ink carts used say 're dated 6 months , n't think say anymore stick 4 month supply \( 3 carts \) use cheap laser print paper \( fooling long time laser xerox paper also good \) n't happen , unless brand new ink cart grab paper smudge soon comes machine disadvantages postscript \( advantage speed , usually \) ways around ghostscript freedom press software solutions bet hp probably ps prototype inkjet , wo n't release fear hurting lj sales end , primary advantages laser true postscript \( unless go cheap lasers \) , fused toner \( , even soaking water \) lasers slightly sharper , instance needed precise layouts printed circuit board transparencies found color phaser postscript \( thermal wax transfer \) work best make pcb negatives directly onto transparency well , hope babbling helped squish endor harvard edu
kolstad cae wisc edu \( joel kolstad \) subject disks copy protected organization u wisconsin madison college engineering lines 21 article rcstage1 132 urc tue nl rcstage1 urc tue nl \( guido klemans \) writes stuff hardware keys put another computer port instead key , hack reading happens 've told , 've never seen done think 's possible 'd need hardware knowledge software read port ! true , many newer keys ship , oh , maybe 32 bits , key encrypt , return pc making bunch 32 bits part program code good way make sure things wo n't run without key \) anyway , , scheme least defeats approach 's little costly , though personally , n't believe copy protection , agree thought mass inconvenience causes legal users far outweighs gains pirates wo n't able copy program joel kolstad
squish endor uucp \( shishin yamada \) subject help phone wire ones tip ring \? organization aiken computation lab , harvard university distribution usa lines 35 article 1993apr22 husc3 harvard edu mlevin husc8 harvard edu \( michael levin \) writes bought little gizmo supposed installed series tip ring lines phone wire ones \? suppose holding regular phone wire , little plastic tooth \( little plastic square thing naked lead ends plug phone \) facing , away 4 wires see tip ring \? please reply mlevin husc8 harvard edu mike levin mike , ring red wire tip green wire standard phone lines two constitute two wires often used voice telephone \( two live lines \) two connectors rj 11 phone jack another way telling measure voltage red green \( ring tip tip green ground potential voltmeter \) , read 48 volts hook ring position \) 98 sure 's 48 v 48 volts n't hurt phone much 're reversed , 's bad one happens somehow get grounded earth ground elsewhere \) additionally , hook , voltage drops 4 9 volts dc think supposed correspond 36 40 current loop lastly , ringing , two wires develop ac potential 80 v p p 20 30 hz across \( get old fashioned bell ringer \) hope clears things squish endor harvard edu
squish endor uucp \( shishin yamada \) subject blinking leds \? organization aiken computation lab , harvard university lines 53 article kepler unh edu dmn kepler unh edu \( 's seeker born every minute \) writes buy blinking leds besides radio shack \? anyone sell blinking leds variable flash rate \? \( voltage guess \) , hertz \( pulse \) rate adjustable set \? 'd like blinking leds set approx 5 hz , 10 hz , 15 hz , 20 hz something like i'm interested 's flash rates like idea leds flasher circuits already hate soldering ics general guess n't hell lot patience thanks , dana want slow led flash rates , adjustable switches \( 4066 digitally controlled switch \) , suggest looking 555 oscillator chip cost 1 radio shack \( much cheaper quantity quality places \) , able find good info simple circuits 555 notebook \( think forest one radio shack \) 'll toy resistor capacitor values use head little math get right frequencies engineer worth salt , make 555 's book , left see \( hate ascii circuit graphics \) 555 accurately go hz 500 khz \( think \) tape recorder gizmo , could alter stereo tape deck use one channel data line \( flashing led \) , one audio line \( voice music \) would eliminate lot noise data line probably easily done kind pll filter \( using op amp \) 565 chip good pll , hard work however nothing pll works , suggest n't try op amp information also found forest radio shack info , popular 741 op amp snap work setting frequency filter values easy , would suggest 555 method idea going , really generalizing manufacturing techniques , 're , suggest thing need solder wire wrap would next , permanent step lastly , soldering pcb making hope clears things squish endor harvard edu
subject old 256k simms \? vmsb csupomona edu \( \) distribution world organization california state polytechnic university , pomona nntp posting host vmsb csupomona edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 lines 14 article rave larc nasa gov , kludge grissom larc nasa gov \( scott dorsey \) writes article ulowell ulowell edu wex cs ulowell edu writes article 1993apr15 csx cciw ca , u009 csx cciw ca \( g stewart beal \) writes wondering people good uses old 256k simms bunch apple mac know lots people tried sell gotten interest well , 're willing spend little money , could buy one ide caching controllers \( assuming ide course \) put 256k simms hardware cache !
jhwhit01 ulkyvx louisville edu subject lead acid batteries part 2 ! ! ! lines 140 nntp posting host ulkyvx louisville edu organization university louisville article 1993apr25 cronkite ocis temple edu , camter28 astro ocis temple edu \( carter ames \) writes thought first thread hilarious , goes another post background information happened poor batteries one year , left batteries garage garage unheated left places needed one riding lawnmower \( lux \) one motorcycle battery riding lawnmower 3 4 years old , one cycle batteries new , one around 5 years old upon spring time , discovered batteries dead , needed worked properly , except older ones , replaced halfway summer \( originally stored garage , think remember dad charging spring \) last year , decided bring basement , two parts one dirt brick , concrete brought three , discovered spring , \( 15 days ago \) batteries dead , put charger , charger said amp meter read around 1 , 000 , 000 , 000 \( words , pinned \) internal circut tripped , went batteries realizing still 2 gigantic batteries , also lead acid , decided put charger \( sitting around 1 half years , brick dirt part \) noticed needed small charge , around 2 hours trickle tested using local gas station giving jump starts , worked fine around 25 'em leads believe one several things 1 \) bought really tty batteries last year \( sorta true \) 2 \) concrete something discharge batteries 3 \) enough moisture short terminals room concrete , 4 \) dirt room able absorb moisture air better concrete \( btw , almost waterski dirt room \) ideas \? could aliens , anything possible lead acid secondary cell releases energy \( electricity \) following chemical reaction pb lead lead \( iv \) oxide sulfuric acid produce lead sulfate water standard heats formation 25 c \( 77 f \) various compounds heat formation compound 25 c , mole pb 0 00 65 0 193 69 pbso4 218 5 68 heat reaction 25 c therefore 60 6 per mole pbso4 produced note lead sulfate soluble \( 0 grams per 100 grams water 25 c \) , thus precipitate solution reaction occurring , cathode \( positive terminal \) battery \( almost sure positive terminal precipitate forms , may wrong oh well , n't battery , n't feel like thinking right \) important notice reaction , knew would , exothermic , energy discharging moisture dissolved \( acid rain \) battery , conductive path terminals may form discharge battery chemical reaction proceeds reaction reversible , electricity \( alternator battery charger \) put back battery lead acid batteries must change chemical composition discharge cell necessary reaction non reacting posts \( terminals \) lead acid battery remove \( add \) electric energy discharge \( charge \) reaction exothermic , tendency happen , though quite slowly normal circumstances keeping battery dry good idea , total solution understand lead acid batteries indeed discharge faster stored concrete opposed wood earth \( dirt \) , one recall 's principle , paraphrased anything subjected stress act move comfortable position thermal selected materials thermal conductivity material temperature , c \( f \) \( hr ft ft \) \( f ft \) earth , 204 0 051 natural , across 871 0 077 , natural , 204 0 081 parallel 871 0 106 earth powder \( 100 \) 0 \( density , 18 lb cu ft \) \( 200 \) 0 \( 300 \) 0 \( 400 \) 0 \( 500 \) 0 051 concrete \( cinder \) 0 20 \( stone \) 0 54 \( 1 4 dry \) 0 44 pine \( across grain \) 15 0 \( parallel grain \) 21 0 20 oak \( across grain \) 15 0 12 maple \( across grain \) 50 0 11 note thermal conductivity dirt \( earth \) goes temperature also , 204 c 400 k , values earth powder order magnitude natural earth thermal conductivity concrete around factor 10 greater dirt , 2 4 times greater wood differences thermal conductivity cause battery concrete discharge faster dirt wood instant discharge reaction occurring , energy released , either electricity heat \( thermal conductivity air 0 015 \( hr ft ft \) \( f ft \) \) storage , except trickle passes condensate battery , energy mostly released heat higher conductivity surface remove heat proportionately faster lower conductivity surface thus , perfectly insulated dry battery bottom surface , given battery temperature storage surface temperature , battery concrete surface discharging 10 times faster dirt 's principle comes play removing energy exothermic reaction drive reaction completion reaction normally occurs room temperature , keeping battery temperature requires removal heat produced concrete surface better heat sink dirt wood surface store battery corner poured concrete basement , 3 surfaces removing energy , pulls reaction along also , water evaporates battery , ratio sulfuric acid water tend drive discharge reaction jeff white jhwhit01 ulkyvx louisville edu get pocket protector \? french fries !
wd cs tu berlin de \( wolfgang diestelkamp \) subject universal phones days \? organization technical university berlin , germany lines 24 distribution world nntp posting host sam cs tu berlin de mime version 1 0 content type text plain charset iso 8859 1 content transfer encoding 8bit reply hugo cats ucsc edu 's message 26 apr 1993 07 32 33 gmt article 1rg36hinnsr6 darkstar ucsc edu hugo cats ucsc edu \( hugo calendar \) writes i'm wondering tote american touch tone phone around sweden germany 's dc powered , buy special adapter europe question general electronics work buy different wall plug refit \( i'm sure 'd \) , would trick \? two things watch germany \( think holds sweden \) connections handle tone dialing , make sure phone set pulse dialing sweden , '0' first digit digits pushed one position makes dialing \( process converting numbers \) interesting task otherwise , technically problem connect foreign phone either german swedish phone system otoh neither would ever try , course illegal wolfgang diestelkamp wd cs tu berlin de wolfgang first gmd de
csulo csv warwick ac uk \( mr j brown \) subject floopy drives update ! organization computing services , university warwick , uk lines 27 nntp posting host clover csv warwick ac uk article ms uky edu msunde01 mik uky edu writes hopefully sort bad 9 quid \( normally pardon ignorance foreign currency exchange rates , quid , relate british pound \( whatever 's called \) american dollars \? \? \? \) k sorry used correct terminology 1 quid 1 1 54 approx u dollars terry pratchett book good contains adequate explanation rather strange uk money system , past present americans , tibetans , alien species \) michael brown csulo csv warwick ac uk mjb dcs warwick ac uk lost interest \? \? 's bad 've lost apathy !
lhe sics se \( lars henrik eriksson \) subject universal phones days \? reply wd cs tu berlin de 's message 26 apr 1993 10 20 23 gmt lines 22 organization swedish institute computer science , article wd sam cs tu berlin de wd cs tu berlin de \( wolfgang diestelkamp \) writes article 1rg36hinnsr6 darkstar ucsc edu hugo cats ucsc edu \( hugo calendar \) writes i'm wondering tote american touch tone phone around sweden germany 's dc powered , buy special adapter europe question general electronics work buy different wall plug refit \( i'm sure 'd \) , would trick \? two things watch germany \( think holds sweden \) connections handle tone dialing , make sure phone set pulse dialing \( virtually \) swedish exchanges handle tone dialling many older exchanges modified accept tone dialling lars henrik eriksson internet lhe sics se swedish institute computer science phone \( \) 46 8 752 15 09 box 1263 \( nat'l \) 08 752 15 09 164 28 , sweden fax 46 8 751 72 30
red dei unipd \( il \) subject pals , gals organization e universita' di lines 6 anyone know get detailed information pals gals please reply via e mail thanks lot advance red dei unipd red dei unipd
se \( joakim \) subject universal phones days \? organization uppsala university lines 26 nntp posting host abacus se wd cs tu berlin de \( wolfgang diestelkamp \) writes article 1rg36hinnsr6 darkstar ucsc edu hugo cats ucsc edu \( hugo calendar \) writes i'm wondering tote american touch tone phone around sweden germany 's dc powered , buy special adapter europe question general electronics work buy different wall plug refit \( i'm sure 'd \) , would trick \? two things watch germany \( think holds sweden \) connections handle tone dialing , make sure phone set pulse dialing sweden , '0' first digit digits pushed one position makes dialing \( process converting numbers \) interesting task basicly right connections cannot handle dialing would estimate couple bigger town , none cannot handle tone dialing regarding swedish dialing system \( rather system \) , apply btw norway even interesting got system ! need different phones depending country live joakim abacus se
blumenow underdog ee wits ac za \( warren blumenow \) subject rf communications link article underdog blumenow 7 organization wits electrical engineering \( \) lines 18 hi problem following design rf link distance 250 're using standard rs232 waves \( square pulses \) waves carrier wave link bidirectional would appreciate advice type techniques antennas use please internet email us wits ac za \( \) wits ac za \( warren \) blumenow underdog ee wits ac za \( warren \) thank much advance n w
cyberman toz buffalo ny us \( cyberman \) subject blue led 's lines 21 x maildoor waflinemail 1 00r gladman aviv said blue led 's 04 24 93 01 51 ga order emit blue light , semiconductor must band gap ga energy within region 2 6 2 8 electron volts according ga physical electronics prof , ca n't get led band gap ga 's n't find blue leds , matter , ga colour leds say blue leds ca n't found 've ga seen 'blue' leds sold , typical visible light ga led blue plastic covering n't emit much light true make blue led 's 2 80 digikey wavelength way stephen cyberman toz buffalo ny us mangled sun 04 25 1993 13 33 46 think 640k enough bill gates 1981 blue wave qwk v2 12
idt unit \( anders \) subject universal phones days \? reply idt unit \( anders \) organization div cs , norwegian institute technology lines 32 article udac uu se , se \( joakim \) writes two things watch germany \( think holds sweden \) connections handle tone dialing , make sure phone set pulse dialing sweden , '0' first digit digits pushed one position makes dialing \( process converting numbers \) interesting task think connections norway handle dialing btw norway even interesting got system ! need different phones depending country live oslo region one system , rest country another system need different phones depending country live \( almost right \) phones little switch inside , able use norway , numbers phone anders bj division computer science norwegian inst technology , trondheim , norway email idt unit \( internet \) x 400 c prmd unit ou idt
mje sni co uk \( mike \) subject caltech puff pd ftp \? rf tools \? organization 's home stray rf signals x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 16 hi , anyone know whether puff rf design package available via ftp site \? understand , public domain please correct i'm wrong one pd rf design tools recommended \? especially filter tools 73 's kellett siemens nixdorf information systems , bracknell sni co uk phone fax compuserve , standard disclaimers apply warranty void opened
mike netnews louisville edu \( mike harpe \) subject drive array leds \? organization university louisville lines 23 ptorre hardy u washington edu \( phil torre \) writes project mind requires array leds addressed individually microprocessor \( say , \) lsi designed drive led array \( including ram hold array state \) , failing , way multiplexing display n't latch bit led using discrete latch \? \( want avoid huge board covered possible ! \) thanks advance maxim makes chip exactly want drives 8 7 segment led displays full decode drives 64 discrete led 's 3 wire serial interface chips also allow large arrays working sign display using part 'll post contact info maxim later , 's home series articles chip last couple circuit cellar ink 's mike harpe michael harpe , programmer analyst information technology , bldg mike hermes louisville edu university louisville \( 502 \) 588 louisville , ky 's man , 's eating machine ! simpsons
mpaul unl edu \( marxhausen paul \) subject disks copy protected organization university nebraska lincoln lines 14 distribution world nntp posting host unlinfo unl edu comments needs backup copies \? deleted 'll toss 2 cents worth 've begun think distribution disks made least reliable floppy disk stocks available 've especially plagued borland 's distribution disks i'm lucky install many 3 times crap definitely , matter course always make copies installations paul marxhausen university nebraska lincoln grace happens
subject disks copy protected sjmadsen nextsrv cas muohio edu \( steve madsen \) nntp posting host nextsrv cas muohio edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 65 kuo sheng \( kasey \) chang \( kschang sfsuvax1 sfsu edu \) wrote article 1993apr23 miavx1 acs muohio edu sjmadsen nextsrv cas muohio edu \( steve madsen \) writes good idea upgraded motherboard last fall would quite pissed software would forced reinstall simply changed motherboards opinion understandable \) assume tape drive \? us 200 floppies around backup , know actually , n't tape drive event total hard disk failure , reinstall apps originals , restore data backups keep upwards 100mb stuff hard disk , way i'm going try back without tape drive \) would nice one though ! ram something add time , 's like bios manufacturer processor type \( 386 486 etc \) data cannot used , esp new flash rom bios machines updates diskette maybe , maybe today n't happen often \( would hope \) , bios buggy user gets upgrade , bios information going change , least date anyway bios manufacturer still going falsely tag users upgrade motherboard type upgrade n't require hard disk backup restore hand , make less intrusive could disguised please insert original disk xx need file update \) would perfectly reasonable sort long n't done terribly often otherwise think would get annoying user would go looking software silly 's much easier loan disks friend let install backup copy already disk , give scheme n't going stop anyone course easier saying originals allow one install \? point \? course something gets corrupted app needs reinstalled , worst thing want software telling software already registered blank law install machines something similar access windows requires click ok go away pretty non intrusive , gets point across said program certain restriction \( restrict one machine \) program registered manufacturer manufacturer supply proven legitimate user patch disable restriction proudly proclaim legal copy registered xxx screen great idea like key system shareware products use problem difficult big software companies implement without getting cost ineffective burden benefit users steve madsen sjmadsen nextsrv cas muohio edu ask linux , free 386 unix !
magnus acs ohio state edu \( mark \) subject clear lcd led sheets nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university distribution usa lines 17 interested finding supplier array leds material transparent nothing lit i'm quite sure lcd screens like away laptop would guess clear ideal item would led array led 1 2 square \( yes course \) distance viewing , window pointers suggestions would much appreciated mark magnus acs ohio state edu 1940 summit street b columbus , ohio \( 614 \) 299
austin edu \( michael carr \( \) \) subject digital ac scaling organization ohio northern university x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 28 visualization stage circuit design right , wondering best way scale ac voltage using 8 bit digital word thinking using common method sending word adc comparing ac voltage \( converted wave \) get duty cycle however , leary method \) requires lot parts , , importantly , b \) creates lot interference switching entire ac line realize correct filtering could cancel interference , would require parts boost price someone mentioned seen ic input 8 bits data directly scaled ac voltage coming chip unfortunately , could n't remember chip number manufacturer anyone else heard chip , please e mail building project dimmer box light controller circuit important cost box remains low one dimmer required light user wishes control \( well , channel , least \) therefor , box costs 150 , doubt end user want dish \( 150 x 16 2400 \) sixteen channels something noticed today 's dimmer boxes expensive ! anyway , help someone could offer either method easily info chip \( always preferred method \) greatly appreciated ! michael carr carr edu
galen picea cfnr colostate edu \( galen watts \) subject rf communications link nntp posting host storm cfnr colostate edu organization college natural resources , state univ lines 20 article blumenow 7 underdog ee wits ac za blumenow underdog ee wits ac za \( warren blumenow \) writes design rf link distance 250 're using standard rs232 waves \( square pulses \) waves carrier wave link bidirectional would appreciate advice type techniques antennas use frequency carrier \? considered using two tones , one 1 another 0 \? high rs 232 data rate \? use one carrier freq \? considered hiring rf data transmission consultant \? curious , galen watts , kf0yj
galen picea cfnr colostate edu \( galen watts \) subject power , signal surges home nntp posting host storm cfnr colostate edu organization colorado concert sound lines 36 article 1993apr26 hpcvaac cv hp com billn hpcvaac cv hp com \( bill nelson \) writes brian ucsd edu \( brian \) writes listen interference hear voices clearly , almost certainly ham radio , might well cb record bit , could take tape local ham operator 's house ask opinion 're hearing communities cannot legally ca n't record legally \? may court , recording personal use legal wants play ham friend , 's legal , long n't charge admission unfortunately , consumer equipment poorly designed , ! \( btw hams allowed amplifiers cb n't illegal ham amplifier n't compute \) , mobile radio mobile rigs could power 1500 watt amplifier bill n't actually 1500 watts 100 feet 've heard radio transmissions concert security guitar amps guitar plugged , security uses radios transmitting 2 5 watts rubber duck antenna , acts like dummy load antenna hey bill , three weeks ago stuff posted dealt \? galen watts , kf0yj
ulkyvx louisville edu subject type ic \? \? \? lines 20 nntp posting host ulkyvx louisville edu organization university louisville , ic need help identifying 8 pin ic following label help would greatly appreciated identifying chip kevin kevin jones ulkyvx ct louisville edu lab supervisor ulkyvx louisville edu computing telecommunications phone 502 588 university louisville , ky fax 502 588 good racist dead racist
josephc cco caltech edu \( joseph chiu \) subject help ! looking oscilloscope source organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 16 nntp posting host sandman caltech edu hi , looking new oscilloscope \( bk 1541 b , looks like , find one cheap enough \) would like suggestions low priced source \( currently , btw , fry 's electronics los angeles 1541 b 598 , best price 've seen overall carry gs 490 , need 40 mhz b w \) thanks joseph chiu josephc cco caltech edu os 2 gotta get thing ! msc 380 caltech pasadena , ca 91126 happiness x wings make appointment 1 818 449 5457 calendar entry send fax , resuming game
josephc cco caltech edu \( joseph chiu \) subject clear lcd led sheets organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 22 distribution usa nntp posting host sandman caltech edu magnus acs ohio state edu \( mark \) writes interested finding supplier array leds material transparent nothing lit i'm quite sure lcd screens like away laptop would guess clear ideal item would led array led 1 2 square \( yes course \) distance viewing , window pointers suggestions would much appreciated , pray tell , putting together \? costs \? transparent totally transparent \? transparent enough allow light side shine \? joseph chiu josephc cco caltech edu os 2 gotta get thing ! msc 380 caltech pasadena , ca 91126 happiness x wings make appointment 1 818 449 5457 calendar entry send fax , resuming game
long spk hp com \( jerry long \) subject 2 silver solder organization hewlett packard x newsreader tin version 1 1 4 pl6 lines 27 andy shiekh \( shiekh trieste \) wrote seen existance electronics solder 2 silver content seems good wetting anyone tell used \? \( silver expensive metal \) andy part , silver solder used general soldering tasks due mechanism growth silver solder , exposed high humidity placed electric field , actually grow conductive electrically short across closely spaced nodes creating field reason , silver allowed sealed , tin lead solder quite stable grow fast silver solder therefore , used extensively jerry long long spk hp com disclaimer opinions reflect employer
wtm uhura neoucom edu \( bill mayhew \) subject laser vs bubblejet \? organization northeastern ohio universities college medicine lines 90 cartridge capping upgrade older deskjet printers available hewlett packard older original deskjet possibly deskjet 500 units may black plastic slide rubber capping components parking area right side \( viewed front \) printer newer printers gray white plastic slide black plastic slide allow cartridge dry may still information packaged ink cartridges explaining situation hp placed coupon free upgrade kit old deskjets new capping mechanism printer indeed find last longer n't information handy suggest contacting nearest hp service center information obtaining kit hp upgrade kits consist electronics mechanical components vary depending starting level printer level wish upgrade upgraded original 500 kit fairly expensive likely better selling old printer purchasing new deskjet 500 prices declined much upgrading original deskjet 500 requires fair amount skill , soldering upgrading deskjet plus 500 involves swapping processor card changing minor parts contact hp service center information pcl language used deskjets considerably different pcl used laser printers , especially newer laser printers biggest problem dumb laser drivers send raster end command scan line makes material difference lasers , causes deskjet print accumulated raster might guess , result hideously slow printing new dos wordperfect print deskjet drivers still guilty particular behavior way wordperfect works , would easy change windows wordperfect works efficiently unless use dos drivers instead windows' dialect used laserjet iiip allows compression permits full page 300 dpi image rendered one megabyte memory uncompressed image could large 909 kbytes , printer needs 300k memory internal house keeping laserjet iv models support printing allows download image compression limited memory situations deskjet downloadable fonts compatible laserjet fonts single page laserjet requires 20 seconds faster trivial printing deskjet printer presumption , course , laser printer completed warm ink chemistry changed , resulting image deterioration unavoidable wo n't use word impossible , matching laser quality output deskjet printer unlikely chosing appropriate paper type helps , eliminate problem laser printers wastful energy components hp accept return spent toner cartridges , material waste problem degree energy waste could use work warm times decreased , allowing stand current consumption significantly reduced laserjet iv kyocera produces laser print engine employs amorphous silicon imaging drum toner system image drum good approximately 100k copies nice print engine wish hp used kyocera engine kyocera also neat modular paper source stacker system recommended duty cycle deskjet significantly lower hp 's laser printers pick pressure rollers subject wear case confirm eventually wear usual symptom printer becomes reluctant feed paper paper feed integrated transport mechanism single part hp service replacement cost transport almost 200 feed rollers separately , though would difficult job competent technician disassembled transport printer depends upon application printer best print 5 10 pages day satisfied appearance output , deskjet good choice noted , deskjet 500 choice personal use bill mayhew neoucom computer services department rootstown , oh 44272 9995 usa phone 216 325 2511 wtm uhura neoucom edu \( 140 220 1 1 \) 146 580 n8wed
cfb fc hp com \( charlie brett \) subject blue led 's nntp posting host hpfcmgw fc hp com organization hewlett packard fort collins site x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 5 lines 14 baden de bari \( baden inqmind bison mb ca \) wrote 's story 're stuck regular green , red , yellow orange led 's ! \? gives ! ! \? \? anybody 'scoop' fairly low priced blue led 's \? \? \? looking leds 10 20 range , forget blue leds recently became available materials made expensive maybe future become less expensive \( brighter \) , 's going cost output limited ever get efficient cost effective red green leds , 're probably going see whole new family color displays charlie brett ft collins , co
erich triumf ca \( rod \) subject multiple inputs pc organization triumf tri university meson facility lines 24 distribution world nntp posting host erich triumf ca news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article uicvm uic edu , u19250 uicvm uic edu writes anyone offer suggestion problem \? several boards whose sole purpose decode dtmf tones send resultant ascii pc boards run serial interface need run boards simultaneously need able ho ok pc problem , hook 8 serial devices one pc , send data \( close \) \? help would greatly appreciated ! singla modify design dtmf decoder , ideal would multi drop system , like rs 485 rs 485 boards available pc 's , probably cheaper bunch rs 232 channels , rs 485 cheaper build onto satellite modules , using single supply 8 pin dip driver chip software pc end would similarly complex either rs 232 rs 485 , opinion higher data rates possible rs 485 would permit quasi simultaneous data transmission hope helps rod , programmer bitnet triumf university british columbia , internet erich triumf ca vancouver , bc , canada phone \( 604 \) 222 1047 ext 510
kniha carson u washington edu \( dagmar \) subject universal phones days \? organization university washington , seattle lines 7 distribution world nntp posting host carson u washington edu n't know much phones germany , know bought phone u mother lives bratislava , slovakia works fine problem n't wall jacks like wire without jack end sticking wall need connect wires \( i'm sure wall jacks western europe may \) hope helps dagmar kniha carson u washington edu
gornish sp1 csrd uiuc edu \( edward h gornish \) subject radar laser detectors organization center supercomputing r lines 18 people 's opinions laser detectors \? escort makes laser detector , passport 1000 , claims works fine however , 've talked people said work lucky e cop happens point laser car front , laser beam happens reflect back detector otherwise wo n't work regular radar , course , travels directions hence detectable comments \? escort deal \( till end april , think \) , buy wideband \( passport 3200 x , k , ka \) laser detectors , 'll save 60 buying separately case , addition laser detector passport 3200 40 \( e passport 1000 normally costs 100 \) eddie gornish university illinois center supercomputing research development gornish csrd uiuc edu
clarke acme ucf edu \( thomas clarke \) subject build neural networks \? organization university central florida lines 15 article physics sunysb edu mmoss ic sunysb edu \( matthew moss \) writes subject says , though specify i'm looking solutions require purchasing specific chips , etc first find congenial member opposite sex thomas clarke institute simulation training , university central fl research parkway , suite 300 , orlando , fl \( 407 \) 658 , fax \( 407 \) 658 , clarke acme ucf edu could n't resist \)
u009 csx cciw ca \( g stewart beal \) subject caltech puff pd ftp \? rf tools \? organization canada centre inland waters lines 18 article 1993apr26 sni co uk mje sni co uk \( mike \) writes hi , anyone know whether puff rf design package available via ftp site \? understand , public domain please correct i'm wrong one puff sold caltech , although inexpensively quality source also available earlier releases nominal charge , i'm sure practise continued regards , stu beal , , u009 csx cciw ca , national water research institute , burlington , ontario , canada 'd made yet another nuclear winter lawn trapped eaten first robin kyle j
sail labs tek com \( arnie \) subject luser ! article sail organization tektronix , inc , beaverton , lines 24 article 1993apr23 sol ctr columbia edu seema madvlsi columbia edu \( seema varma \) writes hi , looking high speed converter \( least 8 bits 150mhz \) testing chip ideas find monster \? paper january issue ieee journal solid state circuits \( authors philips eindhoven \) mentions , 8bits , gaas dac use testing , know circuits around somewhere \( beaverton , oregon \) , selling 8 bit , 1 ghz several years used works well , faster settling time smaller glitch area video seen also , developing precise version may sale 's somewhere 10 12 bit area 1 ghz arnold tektronix laboratories
ulan ee ualberta ca \( dale ulan \) subject circuit boards green \? nntp posting host ee ualberta ca organization university alberta , edmonton canada lines 28 kuusama kaarne cs tut fi \( kuusama juha , , , vtt , \) writes question anything important , still curious almost printed circuit boards green \? seen blue ones , red , yellow , company logo etc technical reason could marketing geniuses tought \( yet \) \? green layer solder mask , used make finished board look neat , avoid solder bridges , especially using wave soldering \( mechanized approach \) 've seen red mask , 've seen green bakelite board look brown colour , , solder mask put , looks like brown board green either side \( one side \) board fibreglass board look green side , green solder mask makes board appear colour got fibreglass board mask , would grey colour teflon boards exist , well i'm sure one 'd guess stuff invented solder mask green , 're change also , change chemical probably requires better normal cleaning machines make boards lot companies make boards ship real
kschang sfsuvax1 sfsu edu \( kuo sheng \( kasey \) chang \) subject disks copy protected organization san francisco state university lines 21 article apr23 yuma acns colostate edu jmiller terra colostate edu \( jeff miller \) writes earlier article kasey chang wrote nothing , read whole suggestion , i'm saying register via mail mailing registration card , company send patch includes info put registration card problem scheme , buy game , want play day mailing card california would probably take week n't say program disabled , \? \( hate ! ! ! ! people take words context \) mean installed , cannot without registering , transfer another machine , sort limitation \( author decide \) , removed program registered kasey chang
galen picea cfnr colostate edu \( galen watts \) subject type ic \? \? \? nntp posting host storm cfnr colostate edu organization colorado concert sound lines 14 article 1993apr26 1 ulkyvx louisville edu ulkyvx louisville edu writes ic need help identifying 8 pin ic following label date code none books list tell us kind circuit \? odd case date code , says 60 reciever subsystem 61 fm subsystem , 16 pin packages info , please ! watts , kf0yj
dave imax imax com \( dave \) subject ntsc horiz vert drive black burst \? keywords video organization imax corporation , mississauga canada lines 21 com \( jack powers \) writes would like hook cameras recently donated local community cable tv station sync inputs form horizontal vertical drive station sync black burst works fine boxes genlock style inputs anyone point design , article , whatever showing produce horizontal vertical drive signals \? check station 's master sync generator 'll probably find already horizontal vertical drive outputs n't used couple cables 're business another possibility find sync generator hd vd outputs genlock station sync , feed hd vd cameras neither possible , 'll build sync look circuit diagrams existing sync generators probably include circuitry want dave
turing toronto edu \( arthur \) subject features answering machines \( esp digital \) keywords wish list , novelty organization csri , university toronto lines 17 hello , i'm curious sort neat features exist high end answering machines today particular , i'm interested features digital answering machines also , typical amount storage \( minutes \) digital answering machines \? reason \? i'm hacking together answering machine program zyxel modem i'm wondering i'm missing something wish list arthur first fact face unix developed security , reliable sense , mind fact alone guarantees vast number holes security unix , dennis arthur turing utoronto ca
acorn co uk \( adrian godwin \) subject laser vs bubblejet \? organization acorn computers ltd , cambridge , uk lines 18 article 1993apr26 das harvard edu squish endor uucp \( shishin yamada \) writes soaking water \) lasers slightly sharper , instance needed precise layouts printed circuit board transparencies found color phaser postscript \( thermal wax transfer \) work best make pcb negatives directly onto transparency deskjet work printing transparencies \? , sort resolution could manage \? adrian adrian godwin acorn co uk adrian demon co uk believe rubbish n't imagine anyone else
slc unisys com \( marc christensen \) subject channels x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 organization unisys corporation slc sean oliver \( sean oliver mindlink bc ca \) wrote live british columbia , canada cable company use called rogers cable anyone know scrambling techniques , ways getting around \? suggestions might use \? n't know answer question , sure rogers cable tool forwarding question sure touch \) marc christensen
ruck beach cis ufl edu \( john ruckstuhl \) subject solvent duct tape adhesive \? organization univ florida cis dept lines 15 nntp posting host beach cis ufl edu know long shot , anyone know solvent use clean duct tape adhesive carpet \? someone taped wires carpet , time move solvent 's used clean coax \? \( whatever barely ties query sci electronics \) thanks help best regards , ruck john r ruckstuhl , jr ruck alpha ee ufl edu dept electrical engineering ruck cis ufl edu , ! ruck university florida ruck sphere cis ufl edu , sphere ! ruck
tas fermi clas virginia edu \( thomas \) subject universal phones days \? organization university virginia lines 16 article wd sam cs tu berlin de wd cs tu berlin de \( wolfgang diestelkamp \) writes otherwise , technically problem connect foreign phone either german swedish phone system otoh neither would ever try , course illegal oh yes , good ol' deutsche shortly moving germany , someone told post acronym public organization suppression technology , \? miss lot things germany \( yes , including machines work subsidized firm \) , phone system one tom tas virginia edu
me170pjd emba news uvm edu uucp \( peter j demko \) subject removing battery corrosion originator me170pjd morris emba uvm edu organization university vermont division emba computer facility lines 8 article 1993apr25 1239 princeton edu , fuchs tsar princeton edu \( ira h fuchs \) readily available solvent good job removing corrosion collects battery terminals \( usually cathode \) using alkaline batteries \( accurately , using long time \) \? generally , corrosion signal 's time send , 're desperate cheap try soda wire brush use gloves goggles , please !
ree88132 zach fit edu \( keith ledig \) subject references ic nntp posting host zach fit edu organization florida institute technology , melbourne , fl usa lines 20 looking text reference include pinouts , description , functionality ic made text exist \? docs internet reference ic 's \? would great idea major ic manufacturer made available public anonymous ftp site 's data books form text files \( ala rfc style \) would save time money ic manufacturer since text file costs nothing send around world via internet since users ic 's found internet anyway books available purchase reference \( many possible \) \? going stuck obtaining zillion databooks manufacturers \( little type books obsoleted every couple years \) \(
magnus acs ohio state edu \( mark \) subject clear lcd led sheets nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university writes distribution usa lines 13 ideal item would led array led 1 2 square \( yes coarse \) distance viewing , window pointers suggestions would much appreciated , pray tell , putting together \? costs \? transparent totally transparent \? transparent enough allow light side shine \? yes clear \( like n't \) course , cost always factor trying get idea feasability idea n't want give much away mark
rowley netcom com \( thomas rowley \) subject voice synth chips keywords voice synthesis organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 8 san jose \( 408 \) 943 sells sc 01 speech synthesis chip 5 00 also noticed radio shack sells chip store small amounts digitized speech good luck
rhi hi \( \) subject disks copy protected lines 60 nntp posting host rhi hi 1993apr26 csus edu kschang sfsuvax1 sfsu edu \( kuo sheng \( kasey \) chang \) writes article apr23 yuma acns colostate edu jmiller terra colostate edu \( jeff miller \) writes earlier article kasey chang wrote nothing , read whole suggestion , i'm saying register via mail mailing registration card , company send patch includes info put registration card problem scheme , buy game , want play day mailing card california would probably take week n't say program disabled , \? \( hate ! ! ! ! people take words context \) mean installed , cannot without registering , transfer another machine , sort limitation \( author decide \) , removed program registered \? \? ! ! ! ! ca n't remove , unless register \? gotta joking , right \? happens get demo version program , install , decide n't like register able get rid \? \( hell , , last thing would think ! \) mean , would better make pretty sure , statement effect printed loud clear package ! better way implement mentioned scheme \( imho \) allow anyone install program , register , get additional features enabled could mean one new exe file needed copied , got full version program course anyone free delete remove program whatever time like still , face trouble new exe file around could solved user registering self , get back specially marked \( \) new exe file sort limitations , suggestions limit size data program work , disable saving data , print defects output \( sure mark \) let pop screen appear ca 10 secs program started exited etc must register able remove rhi hi
dp cec1 wustl edu \( david prutchi \) subject flexible solar cells nntp posting host cec1 organization washington university , st louis mo lines 24 article 1993apr22 r node hub org wayne r node hub org \( wayne dawe \) writes two three years ago saw report tv company developed method making solar cells flexible failing memory convinced flexible metal application requires flexible solar cell hoping someone netland knows something company similar product help would greatly appreciated wayne dawe \( pick path , path n't send wayne r node hub org anything bigger 15k \) wayne r node gts org wayne r node pci ca wayne r node uucp wayne look advertised supplies catalogs sail related magazines \( eg sail \) david prutchi hc1dt washington university prutchi mesun4 wustl edu campus box 1185 dp cec1 wustl edu one brookings drive st louis , mo 63130 4899
warren csee usf edu \( warren \) subject , g , h type amplifiers organization university south florida , department computer science engineering lines 41 distribution world nntp posting host csee usf edu article 0 andrew cmu edu , mark writes hey , someone clue weird types amplifiers \? brief intro concepts behind would cool clues type , b , ab already stuff , ones mentioned occasionally dont know think type like pwm scheme something thanx advanced whole point weird amplifier types improved efficiency class amps pwm \( pulse width modulation \) amps work much like switching power supplies think 've seen things called class well 're capable high , would suitable high power 've yet see anything like used audiophile amp , though 've trying design three last year \( used inverter ups \) , serious problems layout \( 10 450 's parallel help able isolated drive would appreciated \) \) i'm absolutely positive , beleive g' amp one operates variable switched power supply rail voltage carver amps something like use sort phase control circuit \( fully understand operation \) reduce transformer size , beleive patented apart \( trying fix \) found three rail voltages switched ran simulation pspice found topology would greatly reduce power dissipation \( heat \) large signal conditions , driving reactive loads \( draw high current zero voltage \) think speaker dr diode great sound starts warren csee usf edu source warren renoir com
vaxc stevens tech edu subject emi filter , 's \? lines 8 organization stevens institute technology could someone tell 's cornell emi filter fil 001 \? rated 115 50 60hz mov 's ferrite \? dave stevens institute technology hoboken , new jersey
alung megatest com \( aaron lung \) subject get rid flyback whine \? organization megatest corporation lines 36 article 1993apr26 princeton edu shade princeton edu \( john scott jr \) writes recently took apart color sony tv clean volume pushbuttons put beast back together , flyback whine got much louder easy fix \? part resonating \? heard rumors spray fix noise simple thing tv repairman fix \? thanks , scott ah ha ! i'm alone last ! sony \? \? 27 \( pre series , circa 1987 \) damn thing used make noise like mad man 2 separate problems one flyback , assembly windings yoke came together first found poking around windings assembly , thing would make noise guess enough potential assembly leak , sprayed insulation spray think fixed second flyback life , ca n't isolate one leave cover , tv quiet put cover back , let heat , 'll start whine kinda hard solve cover ! ! \( friend mine used fix tv 's says might pin hole leak somewhere flyback usually 's surrounded bunch black dust dirt hope start find something , let know ! aaron
iturriag utkvx utk edu \( mr \) subject universal phones days \? news software vax vms vnews 1 41 organization university tennessee computing center lines 44 article wd sam cs tu berlin de , wd cs tu berlin de \( wolfgang diestelkamp \) writes article 1rg36hinnsr6 darkstar ucsc edu hugo cats ucsc edu \( hugo calendar \) writes i'm wondering tote american touch tone phone around sweden germany 's dc powered , buy special adapter europe question general electronics work buy different wall plug refit \( i'm sure 'd \) , would trick \? two things watch germany \( think holds sweden \) connections handle tone dialing , make sure phone set pulse dialing sweden , '0' first digit digits pushed one position makes dialing \( process converting numbers \) interesting task otherwise , technically problem connect foreign phone either german swedish phone system otoh neither would ever try , course illegal quite sure illegality using regular american phone home system vaguely remember years ago , deutsche split , , telekom discussion new regulation know cordless cellular phones still approved telekom , hold true regular phones \? areacode germany \( , near koeln \) use touch tone dialing assume , however , areas still exclusively set pulse dialing last time checked \( jan '93 \) cologne areacode 221 still solely pulse dialing btw , touch tone become common germany , flourishing 1 900 services \( germany \) hope 'll isdn time affordable price idle wishes markus things go smoother lard ! iturriag utkvx utk edu bring back glory grease ! iturriag utkvx bitnet east tennessee lard advisory council lives ! 've got takes take 've got
fennell well sf ca us \( michael daniel fennell \) subject circuit boards green \? nntp posting host well sf ca us organization whole earth 'lectronic link , sausalito , ca lines 13 circuit boards green \? material used make goes two names used make circuit boards called fr 4 material used marine industries structural material called g 10 fr 4 g 10 green green solder masking agent basic ingredients clear epoxy resin glass fibers sure specs resin , really curious call \( national electronics manufacturing association \) ciba \( major manufacturer epoxy \) find aside , occasionally mix clear epoxy glass cast small structures experiments proportions glass epoxy g 10 green color
mdgoodma apgea army mil \( malcolm goodman mdgoodma \) subject fiber optic modems sale cheap organization apg edgewood , md , usa distribution na lines 20 ok sold , offers accepted offer 25 00 pair gag com \( \) n't know happened wo n't reply accepted 'll offer please take use take advantage really n't know worth qty 2 perkins fiber optic modems , model , rs 422 interface , appear new powered 's , used cannot tell whether work make offer thanks please buy stuff goes door mack mdgoodma apgea army mil
mcmahan netcom com \( dave mc mahan \) subject references ic organization dave mcmahan netcom services lines 44 previous article , ree88132 zach fit edu \( keith ledig \) writes looking text reference include pinouts , description , functionality ic made text exist \? docs internet reference ic 's \? would great idea major ic manufacturer made available public anonymous ftp site 's data books form text files \( ala rfc style \) would save time money ic manufacturer since text file costs nothing send around world via internet since users ic 's found internet anyway books available purchase reference \( many possible \) \? going stuck obtaining zillion databooks manufacturers \( little type books obsoleted every couple years \) use cd rom based system 45 cd rom disks 4 disk changer hooked dedicated ms dos computer contains scanned images data book pages several thousand parts ask something knows \( mostly active ic parts \) , works quite well n't handle varieties transistors diodes exist definately start right direction , need expand data base handle types stuff systems n't cheap paid 7 , 000 liscence get monthly updates cd rom disks send old ones back keep sending us updates think pay yearly fee 1 , 500 get updates find part want , look data sheet page sized monitor \( 's special monitor \) also print page want laserjet printer page printing takes couple minutes per page take dump 5 6 pages usually need feeling maker would n't like made data available internet users \) dave dave mcmahan mcmahan netcom com 17 382 59 190
christopher andrew cmu edu subject \? \? \? mystery part \? \? \? organization freshman , electrical computer engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 16 nntp posting host po4 andrew cmu edu mystery part labeled nec 's low voltage supply nec multisync monitor 's three lead part square package like regulator power transistor board labeled part goes \( possibly scr \? \) pin labeled g board goes zener diode \( reference voltage \? \) pin labeled t1 goes negative lead capacitor power supply , pin labeled t2 goes negative side bridge rectifier supply anyone tell , better yet , buy one like , please email andrew cmu edu 've called nec 's monitor repair number know part , n't think find one sell makes sense thanks
johng socrates umd edu \( john gustafson \) subject solvent duct tape adhesive \? organization university maryland university college lines 18 ruck beach cis ufl edu \( john ruckstuhl \) writes know long shot , anyone know solvent use clean duct tape adhesive carpet \? may tease sub thread discussion \? please tell remove stickers new houses' appliances outdoor lampposts \? especially , right glass n't something rub stuck labels release death grip glass hard surfaces \? many thanks help john john gustafson johng socrates umd edu
\( terje \) subject 0 shareware organization interesting place lines 11 hello last issue electronics world describes ranger 2 0 pcb cad program according article crippled version available shareware , anybody know ftp sites bbses program may found \? thanks advance terje
advax reg triumf ca \( \) subject universal \( video \) phones days \? organization triumf tri university meson facility lines 17 distribution world nntp posting host reg triumf ca news software vax vms vnews 1 41 saw article new scientist wo n't talk \( \? \) bti ones use 19 modem , bti uses 14 models communicate using exchanges , whereas bti route via current exchanges suggestions include building standards converters telephone exchanges mind \) bti design bit conservative better able cope current data compression hardware long distance lines \( magazine hand , may mis remembered bti think british one made gec marconi , currently selling countries \) yet another standards screw andrew , vancouver , canada advax triumf ca finger advax reg triumf ca pgp key
bsc graham vd seqeb gov au subject fm transmitter ics help ! ! ! ! ! organization south east queensland electricity board lines 13 trying design small fm transmitter remote alarm use fm transmitter ic available used purpose \? help , circuits , info etc accepted please reply bsc graham seqeb gov au thanks advance graham
vanderby mprgate mpr ca \( david vanderbyl \) subject lead acid batteries part 2 ! ! ! nntp posting host chip reply vanderby mprgate mpr ca \( david vanderbyl \) organization mpr teltech ltd lines 80 lead acid secondary cell releases energy \( electricity \) following chemical reaction pb lead lead \( iv \) oxide sulfuric acid produce lead sulfate water heats formation deleted heat reaction 25 c therefore 60 6 per mole pbso4 produced note lead sulfate soluble \( 0 grams per 100 grams water 25 c \) , thus precipitate solution reaction occurring , cathode \( positive terminal \) battery \( almost sure positive terminal precipitate forms , may wrong oh well , n't battery , n't feel like thinking right \) major problem reaction takes place acid solution pbso4 soluble acid solution precipitate also , water solution so4 thus heats formation pbso4 part irrelevant important notice reaction , knew would , exothermic , energy discharging turns reaction indeed exothermic \( heat producing \) \( later \) actually happens make battery completely useless \( 're talking lead acid batteries course \) battery slowly self discharges discharge takes place two things happen level pb ions acid solution increases \( e lead lead oxide plates dissolved \) level ions acid solution decreases \( e solution becomes less acidic , like water like \) , post responding correctly stated , pbso4 precipitate water \( non acid \) solution battery dies \( e fully discharged \) end high concentration pb so4 water pbso4 forms solution falls bottom battery \( course happens varying degrees , discharged , precipitate forms \) precipitate forms conductive layer bottom battery enough lead lead oxide plates left touch precipitate \( common newer battery \) dead short results seen products automotive shops correct condition , part useless dissolve pbso4 cannot restore lead lead oxide plates properly may success products newer battery stuff deleted understand lead acid batteries indeed discharge faster stored concrete opposed wood earth \( dirt \) , one recall 's principle , paraphrased anything subjected stress act move comfortable position thermal selected materials stuff deleted 's principle comes play removing energy exothermic reaction drive reaction completion reaction normally occurs room temperature , keeping battery temperature requires removal heat produced concrete surface better heat sink dirt wood surface store battery corner poured concrete basement , 3 surfaces removing energy , pulls reaction along stuff made author completely invalid fact discharge reaction takes place higher rate higher temperatures logical consequence argument really want car start , lower battery temperature 50 reaction along know experience \( least us canada \( gets cold \) \) true want start car really cold day warm battery \( besides , enough energy released self discharge raise temperature air would dissipate heat , whether bottom battery insulated course irrelevant , since would want battery cool storage \) keep battery cool dry place keep charged !
pierson enet dec com \( dave pierson \) subject pcmcia nntp posting host organization digital equipment corporation lines 19 article 1d synapse org , martin vuille synapse org \( martin vuille \) writes anyone know contact obtain copy pcmcia standard \? pcmcia east duane st sunnyvale , ca 94086 usa 408 720 see also alt pcmcia thanks dave pierson facts , accurately manage , digital equipment corporation opinions , 40 old bolton rd nra stow , mass usa pierson enet dec com read everything , , credit , written nothing j raffles
sr hp com \( wes \) subject solvent duct tape adhesive \? organization hp sonoma county \( srsd mwtd mid \) x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 8 lines 15 used product called comes little yellow \( size deck playing cards \) worked well removing kinds sticker tape note always test small area inconspicuous place using good luck , wes \( 707 \) 577 sr hp com
wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca \( wayne smith \) subject pre pc case power supplies csa ul fcc stuff organization \( space rent \) nntp posting host valve heart rri uwo ca lines 11 kind csa ul fcc approval 60 mail order pc computer cases power supplies \? assume certification process small scale custom hardware \( ie digital analog circuitry \) reduced , even eliminated , use case \( certified \) power supply \? also , assuming use certified power supply , satisfied requirements csa ul approval , possibly fcc approval well \? mail order pc cases satisfy fcc certification \? fcc certification even necessary scientific \( non commercial non residential \) use \?
josephc cco caltech edu \( joseph chiu \) subject solvent duct tape adhesive \? organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 11 nntp posting host sandman caltech edu ruck beach cis ufl edu \( john ruckstuhl \) writes least locally , many shops carry product called goo gone works well sticky wo n't go away always , color test inconspicuous corner use joseph chiu josephc cco caltech edu os 2 gotta get thing ! msc 380 caltech pasadena , ca 91126 happiness x wings make appointment 1 818 449 5457 calendar entry send fax , resuming game
phage cshl org \( cshl \) subject disks copy protected organization cold spring harbor lab lines 9 nntp posting host phage cshl org still think major point missed worried software pirates , nothing stop people crack software \( mostly games , \) daily fun usually find crack around anything , especially manufacturer leaves hole thing fun yet \?
scotts ftcollinsco ncr com \( scott sherman \) subject radar laser detectors distribution world organization ncr microelectronics products division \( company \) lines 20 article gornish sp1 csrd uiuc edu , gornish sp1 csrd uiuc edu \( edward h gornish \) writes people 's opinions laser detectors \? escort makes laser detector , passport 1000 , claims works fine however , 've talked people said work lucky e cop happens point laser car front , laser beam happens reflect back detector otherwise wo n't work regular radar , course , travels directions hence detectable comments \? escort deal \( till end april , think \) , buy wideband \( passport 3200 x , k , ka \) laser detectors , 'll save 60 buying separately case , addition laser detector passport 3200 40 \( e passport 1000 normally costs 100 \) uniden makes one unit \( x , k , ka , laser \) 130 colorado radar sells passive radar jammers , passive supposedly legal , 100 wont help laser however scott
vaxc stevens tech edu subject solvent duct tape adhesive \? lines 21 organization stevens institute technology article 1993apr26 socrates umd edu , johng socrates umd edu \( john gustafson \) writes ruck beach cis ufl edu \( john ruckstuhl \) writes know long shot , anyone know solvent use clean duct tape adhesive carpet \? may tease sub thread discussion \? please tell remove stickers new houses' appliances outdoor lampposts \? especially , right glass n't something rub stuck labels release death grip glass hard surfaces \? many thanks help john john gustafson johng socrates umd edu try wd 40
reid ucs indiana edu \( frank reid \) subject solvent duct tape adhesive \? lines 17 nntp posting host reid ucs indiana edu organization indiana university article 1993apr26 socrates umd edu johng socrates umd edu \( john gustafson \) writes know long shot , anyone know solvent use clean duct tape adhesive carpet \? may tease sub thread discussion \? please tell remove stickers new houses' appliances outdoor lampposts \? especially , right glass n't something rub stuck labels release death grip glass hard surfaces \? petroleum , available hardware stores , remove frank reid ucs indiana edu
yxy4145 ucs usl edu \( yu \) subject one know biggest rom present \? organization univ southwestern la , lafayette lines 3 please replay yxy4145 usl edu thanks lot
nyx cs du edu \( greg \) subject solvent duct tape adhesive \? organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept lines 6 usually use stuff good glass either acetone , little benzene latter two bit dangerous \( possibly carcinogen \( sp \? \) \) gets job done imagine two solvents metals well glass , keep stuff away plastic better yet , may want go local hardware store ask use
eldred jpl nasa gov \( dan eldred \) subject solvent duct tape adhesive \? nntp posting host organization jet propulsion laboratory lines 12 article snoopy cis ufl edu ruck beach cis ufl edu \( john ruckstuhl \) writes know long shot , anyone know solvent use clean duct tape adhesive carpet \? someone taped wires carpet , time move n't know sure work , might try mek \( methyl ethyl keytone \? \) worked getting stickum left shelf paper , available paint stores use carbon gas mask lots ventilation stuff really stinks ! dan
unix sri com \( matt mora \) subject solvent duct tape adhesive \? organization sri international , menlo park , ca lines 39 article 1993apr26 socrates umd edu johng socrates umd edu \( john gustafson \) writes ruck beach cis ufl edu \( john ruckstuhl \) writes know long shot , anyone know solvent use clean duct tape adhesive carpet \? use wd 40 may tease sub thread discussion \? please tell remove stickers new houses' appliances outdoor lampposts \? especially , right glass n't something rub stuck labels release death grip glass hard surfaces \? many thanks help try wd 40 xavier matthew xavier mora matt mora qm sri com sri international unix sri com 333 ave menlo park , ca 94025
unix sri com \( matt mora \) subject wd 40 moisture repellant \( lead acid batteries c organization sri international , menlo park , ca lines 34 article 1993apr25 1 auvax1 adelphi edu schmidt auvax1 adelphi edu writes , etc flew across room , several people room almost heart attacks beware explosive properties wd40 vapor use starting fluid jet ski 's fact lubricant works well since jet ski 's 2 cycle also helps ski water clean spark plus stuff ob sci electronics office studio garage phone wireless phone page feature make phone hand set ring get attention person simple circuit use second pair wires \( first pair \) emulate effect phone garage \? \( ie push button make phone ring house push button make ring garage \) thanks xavier matthew xavier mora matt mora qm sri com sri international unix sri com 333 ave menlo park , ca 94025
whit carson u washington edu \( john whitmore \) subject 8x oversampling cd player organization university washington , seattle lines 36 nntp posting host carson u washington edu keywords oversampling , cd , digitized audio article netcom com mcmahan netcom com \( dave mc mahan \) writes previous article , kolstad cae wisc edu \( joel kolstad \) writes article dd0 netcom com hcb netcom com \( h c bowman \) writes bought new portable cd player office , notice proudly proclaims 8 times oversampling box data ever read \( barring , course \) , eventually gets turned 44 1 khz , 16 bit , two channel data oversampling takes two discrete data points , interpolates n 1 points n times oversampling asked , people said interpolation simply linear interpolation , significantly complicated quite correct understanding case care , filtering method uses fir \( finite impulse response \) filter 'd guess cd makers use kind method anybody know real answer \? typical \( old 2x oversampling units \) thirteen tap fir , implemented dedicated hardware addition circuit kind speed \( slow , digital standards \) adder much less expensive analog components comparable precision gleaned information hardware manual old cd player design one would find similar info particular cd \( digital filter interesting component , point view \) , idea digital filter kind interpolation scheme \( read book numerical analysis , see broad term \) , john whitmore
michael chpc utexas edu \( michael lemke \) subject universal phones days \? organization university texas system chpc lines 28 article utkvx utk edu iturriag utkvx utk edu \( mr \) writes quite sure illegality using regular american phone home system vaguely remember years ago , deutsche split , , telekom discussion new regulation know cordless cellular phones still approved telekom , hold true regular phones \? areacode germany \( , near koeln \) use touch tone dialing assume , however , areas still exclusively set pulse dialing last time checked \( jan '93 \) cologne areacode 221 still solely pulse dialing btw , touch tone become common germany , flourishing 1 900 services \( germany \) hope 'll isdn time affordable price idle wishes imply german tone dialing compatible american one \? know least british system supposedly close enough though american phone work modem \( american \) special setting british standards michael michael lemke astronomy , ut austin , texas \( michael io utexas edu io michael span \)
flux inqmind bison mb ca \( john \) subject vga circuit organization inquiring mind bbs 1 204 488 1607 lines 15 've come across circuit integrated circuit systems inc called chip vga card dual input ntsc signal output chip basicly pixel clock , various speeds notice outputs clock output used amiga system \? must ntsc vga ntsc ntsc \? simple circuits boost ntsc vga signal \? need genlock laser disc video john flux inqmind bison mb ca inquiring mind bbs , winnipeg , manitoba 204 488 1607
mike diack mike staff tc umn edu subject free ! eprom eraser pcb \( twin cities collect \) x xxmessage id dialup slip 1 15 gw umn edu x xxdate tue , 27 apr 93 15 58 12 gmt nntp posting host dialup slip 1 15 gw umn edu organization persian cat carpet co x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d7 lines 5 device started life 175 watt security lamp , smashed outer glass liberate nasty rays , works treat , weighs heap \( due ballast \) , wont ship ! ! cheers mike
netcom com \( robert casey \) subject cable tvi interference organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 4 remember rightly , set tones piped thru catv systems \( somewheres near fm broadcast band \) cable company trucks listen roam around town hear air cable
ernet \( parikh \) subject help wanted pinouts oki , organization national centre software technology , bombay lines 7 anybody send pinouts real time clock ic oki semiconductors , wish know ic oki inbuilt crystal rather external 32 crystal thanks advance parikh ernet
blockley csu murdoch edu au \( adrian blockley \) subject programming motorola \? lines 14 nntp posting host murdoch edu au anyone successfully programmed beast using pgm circuit described `the little green handbook , pg 9 \? dan adrian blockley ! may say something profound environmental science ! one day murdoch university ! western australia , ! blockley murdoch edu au ! phone 09 360 !
lc cs rmit oz au \( leon \) subject 2 silver solder organization comp sci , rmit , melbourne , australia lines 21 article shiekh trieste \( andy shiekh \) writes seen existance electronics solder 2 silver content seems good wetting anyone tell used \? \( silver expensive metal \) management electronics assembly \( ian \) talking 63 37 tin lead alloy point occasionally , impurities may added solder , vary within soldering process attempt improve performance example , addition small quantities copper reduce amount solder moves stress solid particular applications additions impurities may warranted , general , best keep solder used soldering process pure possible guess good oil commercial operations , n't mention anything esoteric leon
me170pjd emba news uvm edu uucp \( peter j demko \) subject solvent duct tape adhesive \? originator me170pjd emba uvm edu organization university vermont division emba computer facility lines 17 article 1993apr27 csi jpl nasa gov , eldred jpl nasa gov \( dan eldred \) article snoopy cis ufl edu ruck beach cis ufl edu \( john ruckstuhl \) writes know long shot , anyone know solvent use clean duct tape adhesive carpet \? someone taped wires carpet , time move n't know sure work , might try mek \( methyl ethyl keytone \? \) worked getting stickum left shelf paper , available paint stores use carbon gas mask lots ventilation stuff really stinks ! dan n't know , methyl ethyl commonly known acetone found major active ingredient nail polish remover probably got around
erickson azure nmt edu \( alan erickson \) subject pc parallel \( ! \) nntp posting host azure organization new mexico tech lines 14 i'm trying bring 8 bits pc , would like use interrupt driven routines without buying io board making new port , bring bits \? lpt seems inputs , 've heard rumours lpts bidirectional lines anybody know fer sure \? bi lpts , boards \( 'll running new 386dx 33 \) \? alan erickson erickson baltic nmt edu '93 competitors hope 're getting much sleep
jimt ee mu oz au \( jim \) subject help needed light dependent resistor devices \( \) organization dept electrical electronic engineering , university melbourne lines 25 kind soul provide information contain onboard light source , totally integrated light shielded unit seen schematics manufacturers devices , different types thanks much advance , jim jim department electrical electronic engineering school information technology electrical engineering university melbourne , , victoria , australia telephone 61 3 email jimt ee mu oz au hello , front desk \? allan
jtsilla damon ccs northeastern edu \( james tsillas \) subject universal phones days \? article damon jtsilla organization northeastern university , boston , lines 11 reply kniha carson u washington edu 's message 26 apr 1993 16 19 26 gmt nntp posting host damon ccs northeastern edu sent 2400 baud modem cousin greece u working fine also worked u jim james tsillas jtsilla damon ccs northeastern edu work \( 508 \) 898 2800 , home \( 617 \) 641 jim hop pop , dr
panix com \( michael \) subject universal phones days \? organization macedonia 3 , 000 years greek heritage lines 19 lhe yang sics se lhe sics se \( lars henrik eriksson \) writes \( virtually \) swedish exchanges handle tone dialling many older exchanges modified accept tone dialling would suprised equipment compatible , fact new york telephone \( nynex \) spend lot money swedish switching equipment recently lars henrik eriksson internet lhe sics se guess brand equipment refer \) michael land , said god seeks shall find sits folded hands sleeps blind sophocles
billn hpcvaac cv hp com \( bill nelson \) subject power , signal surges home organization hewlett packard company , corvallis , oregon usa lines 16 wrote bit , could take tape local ham operator 's house ask opinion 're hearing communities cannot legally however , ask ham listen interference occurs specific time day , would possible scheduling nothing else , could invite ham transmit driveway , see interferes , probably need equipment worked make immune rf interference people pointed wrong illegal record disclose heard ham bands bill
billn hpcvaac cv hp com \( bill nelson \) subject power , signal surges home organization hewlett packard company , corvallis , oregon usa lines 17 galen picea cfnr colostate edu \( galen watts \) writes ca n't record legally \? may court , recording personal use legal wants play ham friend , 's legal , long n't charge admission yeah goofed slip mind must getting senile deleted hey bill , three weeks ago stuff posted dealt \? busy posting 20 groups get one every three months bill
jvannes vms macc wisc edu subject long distance ir detection organization university wisconsin academic computing center distribution na lines 13 article 1993apr24 eas asu edu , gsulliva enuxha eas asu edu \( glenn sullivan \) writes designed built hardware 1988 would output logic level \( 567 tone detector \) upon detecting 500 led 28 feet away used motorola , biased linearly dc feedback loop servo variations sunlight \( 60hz lights \) used lenses allen sullivan would interested knowing sensing hardware use detector \? could detect angle location , system simply respond presence transmitter sensors field view \?
tsar princeton edu ! fuchs \( ira h fuchs \) subject removing battery corrosion originator news nimaster nntp posting host tsar princeton edu organization princeton university lines 17 article 1993apr26 239 uvm edu me170pjd emba news uvm edu uucp \( peter j demko \) writes article 1993apr25 1239 princeton edu , fuchs tsar princeton edu \( ira h fuchs \) readily available solvent good job removing corrosion collects battery terminals \( usually cathode \) using alkaline batteries \( accurately , using long time \) \? generally , corrosion signal 's time send , 're desperate cheap try soda wire brush use gloves goggles , please ! sorry , meant terminals device batteries \( obviously quite dead \)
sx mont nec com \( greg \) subject wanted source tuning capacitors keywords capacitors , tuning organization supercomputers , mtl , pq distribution america lines 23 hello day feeling tad thought constructing old time radio set figured substituting modern diode crystal , winding antenna coil , etc , problem seem locating source tuning capacitor know , old meshed plate variable condensers used tuning circuits well things seem original catalog capacitors relatively abundant , really suitable application , anyone point supplier tuning capacitors 0 360 pf range \? greg , ounce \( \) , n standard unit supercomputers inc prevention , equal one pound cure cid doe ca
wraith cs uow edu au \( scott anthony barnett \) subject filter design software ibm pc organization university wollongong , nsw , australia lines 15 nntp posting host wraith cs uow edu au anyone got active filter design program runs ibm pc \? \? something easily let specify filter parameters , give appropriate component values \? \? public domain , anyone one , could mail thanks advance , scott wraith cs uow edu au p run windows necessary
swanee megadata mega oz au \( geoff swan \) subject circuit boards green \? organization megadata p l , north ryde , sydney , aust lines 35 article 1993apr23 1720 mala bc ca , wagner mala bc ca \( tom wagner , wizzard old audio visual equipment nanaimo campus \) writes color board shows composition , hence use original older boards bakelite composition , brown phenolic \( spelling \) tan non filled fiberglass boards used computers green filled fiberglass blue teflon white rubbish reason colour boards depends solder mask used older boards \( bakelite phenolic \) rarely used solder mask \( boards suited well automatic stuffing soldering techniques \) hence colour compound used make days boards made fibreglass general purpose uses solder mask applied prevent close traces shorting one another soldering \( also prevent decomposition traces harsh environments \) light dark green boards seen dry film mask applied \( usually applied complete film produced \) blue \( red orange \) boards two part epoxy liquid resist formulation applied different manner 's lot info pro 's con 's , 's another story sla n go fo ill , risky b geoff swan \( research development \) swanee mega com au megadata pty ltd 2 37 waterloo rd , north ryde , 61 2 805 nsw 2113 , australia v \( fax \) 61 2 887 4847
baden sys6626 bison mb ca \( baden de bari \) subject pc parallel \( ! \) organization system 6626 bbs , winnipeg manitoba canada lines 40 erickson azure nmt edu \( alan erickson \) writes i'm trying bring 8 bits pc , would like use interrupt driven routines without buying io board making new port , bring bits \? lpt seems inputs , 've heard rumours lpts bidirectional lines anybody know fer sure \? bi lpts , boards \( 'll running new 386dx 33 \) \? yes , possible i'm making 7 stepper controller board , 7 digital inputs , \( \) 18 digital outputs port one main thing tell whether port bi directional bus look chip numbered n't , 's probably , good reading , following first , find address port , \( decimal \) either 888 , 632 pascal , would write \( port xxx \) xxx address either hex decimal status lines , pins 14 , 16 , 17 , well strobe , pin 1 , bi directional lines , read base address 2 , 888 , read status , read 890 also output lines fashion data lines pascal , port xxx value hope helps let know need help inspiration comes baden sys6626 bison mb ca \( \) baden inqmind bison mb ca seek baden de bari unknown
baden sys6626 bison mb ca \( baden de bari \) subject fax machine scanners mono computer scanners \? organization system 6626 bbs , winnipeg manitoba canada lines 16 wondering , since 've got fax machine scanners intact , could integrated pc environment mono scanner \? , start \? ! thanks inspiration comes baden sys6626 bison mb ca \( \) baden inqmind bison mb ca seek baden de bari unknown
baden sys6626 bison mb ca \( baden de bari \) subject pads organization system 6626 bbs , winnipeg manitoba canada lines 19 ago saw pads , 6 x8 could plugged \( something \) would glow one red , another green , another blue interresting wondering anyone would feed anything nature , price oh , pads rubber like floppy like , thick thanks inspiration comes baden sys6626 bison mb ca \( \) baden inqmind bison mb ca seek baden de bari unknown
baden sys6626 bison mb ca \( baden de bari \) subject wanting 3479p 's organization system 6626 bbs , winnipeg manitoba canada lines 14 anyone would low quantity little beasts \( 3479p \) motorola , please let know ! baden de bari baden sys6626 bison mb ca \( \) baden inqmind bison mb ca true life fear death
csulo csv warwick ac uk \( mr j brown \) subject solvent duct tape adhesive \? organization computing services , university warwick , uk lines 24 nntp posting host clover csv warwick ac uk article 1993apr26 mnemosyne cs du edu nyx cs du edu \( greg \) writes usually use stuff good glass either acetone , little benzene latter two bit dangerous \( possibly carcinogen \( sp \? \) \) gets job done imagine two solvents metals well glass , keep stuff away plastic benzene definitely carcinogen get hands n't use ! michael brown csulo csv warwick ac uk mjb dcs warwick ac uk lost interest \? \? 's bad 've lost apathy !
neilson osf org \( peter neilson \) subject solvent duct tape adhesive \? organization open software foundation lines 45 article 1993apr27 uvm edu me170pjd emba news uvm edu uucp \( peter j demko \) writes article 1993apr27 csi jpl nasa gov , eldred jpl nasa gov \( dan eldred \) article snoopy cis ufl edu ruck beach cis ufl edu \( john ruckstuhl \) writes know long shot , anyone know solvent use clean duct tape adhesive carpet \? someone taped wires carpet , time move n't know sure work , might try mek \( methyl ethyl keytone \? \) worked getting stickum left shelf paper , available paint stores use carbon gas mask lots ventilation stuff really stinks ! dan n't know , methyl ethyl commonly known acetone found major active ingredient nail polish remover probably got around oh dear , time try remember chemistry let 's see find formulae somewhere dim recesses mind sounds gears fumes oil nasal ha ! knew double bond ! shall show ascii \? mek acetone c c c c c c c shown , represents double bond mek methyl \( \) one side , ethyl \( \) acetone two acetone methyl ethyl , instead solvents similar properties think mek may little less flammable lot worse breathe 's lot harder buy mek use acetone nail polish remover consists almost entirely acetone buy workshop , get cheapest , expensive kind oils n't need nothing foolish posted net newsgroup peter neilson neilson osf org quote changed daily 've seen one , burn calendar
ntuvax ntu ac sg \( \) subject card phones lines 5 nntp posting host v9000 ntu ac sg organization nanyang technological university singapore help understand operates values stored thanx
d9bertil dtek chalmers se \( bertil jonell \) subject universal phones days \? organization survivors anonymous lines 13 nntp posting host dtek chalmers se article shelley u washington edu kniha carson u washington edu \( dagmar \) writes wire without jack end sticking wall need connect wires \( i'm sure wall jacks western europe may \) son return much americans know rest word \? flamewar anyone \? bertil shown nutty theory , beyond fringe political view strange religion exists proponent net proof left exercise kill file
firga sun ac za \( fe du ing e e \) subject references ic organization university stellenbosch lines 10 previous article , ree88132 zach fit edu \( keith ledig \) writes looking text reference include pinouts , description , functionality ic made find cross reference almost ic discrete semiconductor philips ecg semiconductors master replacement guide , 10 \( especially industrial , commercial entertainment , military \) francois
france sun com \( steve sunconnect \) subject universal phones days \? organization sunconnect lines 15 distribution world nntp posting host hardy france sun com article news chalmers se , d9bertil dtek chalmers se \( bertil jonell \) writes article shelley u washington edu kniha carson u washington edu \( dagmar \) writes wire without jack end sticking wall need connect wires \( i'm sure wall jacks western europe may \) son return much americans know rest word \? flamewar anyone \? 're one c british moment
harris athena mit edu \( jonathan g harris \) subject solvent duct tape adhesive \? organization massachusetts institute technology lines 13 distribution world nntp posting host 558 1 mit edu benzene acetone benzene carcinogen , skin cause cumulative damage bone marrow essential production blood cells highly toxic one exposure unlikely kill , likely hidden damage benzene one compound chemists try like hell avoid using ! acetone much less toxic , highly flammable volatile also dissolves lots things handle great care ! jonathan g harris department chemical engineering , mit rm 66 450 25 ames street , cambridge , 02139 harris athena mit edu \( 617 \) 253 fax 253
cs1 uct ac za \( r \) subject hd tv sound systems organization computer science department , university cape town lines 2 would like get information current systems used hd tv sound systems thanks
jmichael vnet ibm com subject solvent duct tape adhesive lines 8 acetone likely damage carpet first solvent try denatured alcohol waste time rubbing alcohol use methyl alcohol instead denatured alcohol want cocktail removing goo , use pure grain alcohol \) alcohol work try carbon neither work may need try stronger solvent , alcohol works good luck jim
lan co \( tom \) subject universal phones days \? organization alcatel austria research centre x newsreader tin 1 1 pl4 lines 28 d9bertil dtek chalmers se \( bertil jonell \) writes article shelley u washington edu kniha carson u washington edu \( dagmar \) writes wire without jack end sticking wall need connect wires \( i'm sure wall jacks western europe may \) son return much americans know rest word \? flamewar anyone \? well , bertil , might laugh , many places austria , wall jacks yet , either wires sticking wall \( put closed , often sealed , box \) \) far remember germany , nicely mixed situation somebody wires sticking , somebody jacks hand , everywhere seen wall jacks , never seen wires sticking wall thought slovakia case well much scandinavians know rest europe \? \? \) \) tom tomas alcatel austria g b h 1210 wien , 1 7 tel 431 283 fax 431 e mail tom co
pvr wang com \( \) subject 2 silver solder organization wang labs , lowell , usa nntp posting host wang com lines 20 shiekh trieste \( andy shiekh \) writes seen existance electronics solder 2 silver content seems good wetting anyone tell used \? \( silver expensive metal \) called silver bearing solder used solder devices contacts one application soldering ceramic terminal strips used old tektronix scopes ceramic strips silver plated used ordinary solder molten metal would silver ceramic silver quite thin 2 saturated solution silver tin lead thus , silver solder solution devices use silver contacts quartz crystals ultrasonic peter pvr wang com info beav \( binary editor viewer \) finger pvr das wang com well , says
wwerner thor mlb semi harris com \( william werner \) subject correction harris 's answerfax phone number nntp posting host thor mlb semi harris com organization harris semiconductor , melbourne fl lines 84 h h rrrrr rrrrr ssss h h r r r r aaaaa rrrrr rrrrr ssss h h r r r r h h r r r r ssss harris semiconductor answerfax answerfax line 24 hours day , 7 days week , instantly receive application notes using touch tone telephone fax machine number call \( 407 \) 724 3818 \( set international calls time \) general decision tree answerfax follows , numbers available selections welcome harris semiconductors answerfax 1 2 select 1 select 2 familiar explanation answerfax answerfax 1 2 select 1 order select 2 document \( list catalogs document list 1 new products catalogs , 2 linear products get first \) 3 data acquisition products 4 digital signal processing products 5 discrete power intelligent power products 9 application notes select appropriate document select appropriate catalog want order want order anything else \? yes , anything else \? yes , taken back taken back selection decision selection decision phone number fax \? name \? \( request instructions \) end bill werner bill werner wwerner mis semi harris com harris semiconductor wwerner thor mlb semi harris com melbourne florida life candle , \( 407 \) 729 dream give flame rush , steel
iisakkil beta hut fi \( mika iisakkila \) subject universal phones days \? reply d9bertil dtek chalmers se 's message tue , 27 apr 1993 10 46 42 gmt nntp posting host beta hut fi organization helsinki university technology , finland news chalmers se lines 10 d9bertil dtek chalmers se \( bertil jonell \) writes son return much americans know rest word \? flamewar anyone \? let 's save bandwidth , skip intermediate articles go straight nazis hitler \) \( wall sockets , thank , 're better \) segmented memory helps structure software
conradie firga sun ac za \( gerrit conradie \) subject disks copy protected article firga conradie 53 organization university stellenbosch , sa lines 34 article dolphin zoo cs yale edu stone andy cs yale edu \( andy stone \) writes subject disks copy protected wrote commercial program called game maker \( guess \) document protect \( answer question page x , line \) , real pain also allow user register sending card , computing based name system works 've gotten lots registration cards hear program cracked though someone two people actually called support one question , wanting buy graphics libraries \( right ! \) anyway anyone wants help catch cracker cracked version , mail wo n't accuse \( unless 're cracker course \) know least one ftp site download cracks commercial game existence names companies \( yes , companies ! \) also blatantly advertised crack codes according , illegal \( least usa , according statute something \) remove copy protection program condition may use code legally owned software convenience interest download advertisement one company give name ftp site anyone , even protect companies wrote original games disclaimer condone use cracking programs believe hurts industry individuals long run subject copy protection pirates n't give damn using software name registered owner came starting program n't conscience gerrit
subject fm transmitter ics help ! ! ! ! ! ganter ifi unibas ch \( robert ganter \) organization institut fuer informatik nntp posting host schroeder ifi unibas ch lines 33 article 1993apr27 vd seqeb gov au writes trying design small fm transmitter remote alarm use pretty high frequency one chip fm transmitter ic available used purpose \? help , circuits , info etc accepted please reply bsc graham seqeb gov au yes would use fm transmitter chip motorola \( linear interface databook \) , stable oscillator mixer \( e g 1 mini circuits lab \) everything done fm chip mixed oscillator frequency look arrl handbook lots ideas oscillators mixing n't think , single chip designs high frequencies yet thanks advance graham cheers robert hb9nby robert ganter universitaet basel fan institut fuer informatik plan basel switzerland ganter ifi unibas ch amateurradio hb9nby packet hb9nby hb9eas che eu
uwsuper edu \( paul \) subject solvent duck tape adhesive organization university wisconsin superior , wisconsin lines 3 nntp posting host 137 81 10 140 want try non toxic solvent , 's one made citrus works well n't take skin process one brand name 've used solve , others
v064mb9k ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( neil b gandler \) subject looking good book pspice 5 2 organization university buffalo lines 6 news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host ubvmsb cc buffalo edu got copy spice 5 2 would like know published books market yet could get one would appreciate help thank neil gandler
bnr ca \( peter manson \) subject solvent duct tape adhesive \? nntp posting host organization bell northern research , ontario , canada lines 16 article snoopy cis ufl edu ruck beach cis ufl edu \( john ruckstuhl \) writes know long shot , anyone know solvent use clean duct tape adhesive carpet \? yet another suggestion , one non toxic \( although would handle like cleaner \) smells nice chemical called , smells like lemon \( think lemon extract kind \) might find hardware store , sold general purpose solvent , best bet would bike store used chain cleaning fluid works sticker glue , crayons , grease , oil , etc 's clear yellow bottle , use straight add water , changes consistency , good jobs peter
deaddio ski bellcore com \( michael deaddio \) subject acceleration sensor \? nntp posting host ski bellcore com organization research engineering lines 16 anyone know type acceleration sensor electrical output sort \? would sense acceleration one direction thanx , mike michael deaddio \( mts \) work hard , play hard , bell communication research problem deaddio thumper bellcore com playing hard makes 201 829 5024 working harder mre 2q 260
gopher cc ucf edu \( ian nelson r ibm consultant \) subject old schematics organization university central florida bunch o' consultants lines 6 wonder anyone would know \( \) could find schematic old \( sp \) computer even pin expansion bus \? \? thanks advance ian nelson \( ucf1vm cc ucf edu \)
mcole spock \( cole \) subject disk drive read write organization new mexico state university lines 5 nntp posting host spock nmsu edu working project need information regarding currents \( head \) needed write hard drive currents produced reading anyone information would much appreciated mcole nmsu edu
world std com \( richard pierce \) subject acceleration sensor \? organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 17 article 1993apr27 walter bellcore com deaddio ski bellcore com \( michael deaddio \) writes anyone know type acceleration sensor electrical output sort \? would sense acceleration one direction gee , \( ahem \) ! devices available variety sources \( one comes mind lot money spend \) sorts devices output voltage proportional acceleration need know range 're talking though dick pierce loudspeaker software consulting 17 street , \( 508 \) 433 9183 \( voice fax \)
wex cs ulowell edu \( paul wexelblat \) subject solvent duct tape adhesive reply wex cs ulowell edu organization univ lowell cs dept lines 18 article 357 almaden ibm com , jmichael vnet ibm com writes jmichael vnet ibm com date tue , 27 apr 93 09 00 18 edt subject solvent duct tape adhesive removing goo , use pure grain alcohol \) alcohol work try carbon neither work may need heat makes gas ww poison gas fame \( remember used carbon fire \? \) \( yes , know yelling \) wex
wb8foz ncoast org \( david lesher \) subject hp manual reply wb8foz scl cwru edu organization f systems medina , ohio usa distribution na lines 14 one three oscillators hp made many years ago \( others low frequency oscillator wide range oscillator \) ones 7 diameter chrome dial , bridge circuit used pilot lights feedback loop , produced many volts output 've acquired pair venerable old beasts non working one , sn 605 , \( owned radio one point ! \) needs help know likely buy copy book hp , costs considering paid dollar pair rain dayton anyone book could copy parts \? thank
arrl org \( zack lau \) subject circuit boards green \? organization american radio relay league lines 64 sci electronics , swanee megadata mega oz au \( geoff swan \) writes rubbish reason colour boards depends solder may 1993 cover qst picture three different boards without solder mask \( tell copper colored traces \) box labeled brown teflon glass board , one center board exposed left fiberglass board looks green see reason putting solder mask circuit board used box covers \) wonder manufacturer actually puts solder mask low noise microwave \? often , microwave circuits odd bits wire foil metal attached wherever whatever necessary make unit work properly \( commercial product \? \) solder mask would certainly make tougher , never mind finding something minimally degrades circuits \( q dope coils improve q holds things together minimal loss \) zack lau 1 internet arrl org working 24 ghz ssb cw gear operating interests 10 ghz cw ssb fm us mail c arrl lab 80 40 20 cw 225 main street station capability qrp , 1 8 mhz 10 ghz newington ct modes cw ssb fm packet amtor phone \( really \) 203 666 1541 zack lau 1 internet arrl org working 24 ghz ssb cw gear operating interests 10 ghz cw ssb fm us mail c arrl lab 80 40 20 cw 225 main street station capability qrp , 1 8 mhz 10 ghz newington ct modes cw ssb fm packet amtor phone \( really \) 203 666 1541 mask used older boards \( bakelite phenolic \) rarely used solder mask \( boards suited well automatic stuffing soldering techniques \) hence colour compound used make days boards made fibreglass general purpose uses solder mask applied prevent close traces shorting one another soldering \( also prevent decomposition traces harsh environments \) light dark green boards seen dry film mask applied \( usually applied complete film produced \) blue \( red orange \) boards two part epoxy liquid resist formulation applied different manner 's lot info pro 's con 's , 's another story sla n go fo ill , risky b geoff swan \( research development \) swanee mega com au megadata pty ltd 2 37 waterloo rd , north ryde , 61 2 805 nsw 2113 , australia v \( fax \) 61 2 887 4847
me170pjd emba news uvm edu uucp \( peter j demko \) subject pc parallel \( ! \) originator me170pjd emba uvm edu organization university vermont division emba computer facility lines 19 article 1993apr26 nmt edu , erickson azure nmt edu \( alan erickson \) i'm trying bring 8 bits pc , would like use interrupt driven routines without buying io board making new port , bring bits \? lpt seems inputs , 've heard rumours lpts bidirectional lines anybody know fer sure \? bi lpts , boards \( 'll running new 386dx 33 \) \? alan erickson erickson baltic nmt edu '93 competitors hope 're getting much sleep i'm watching one built right uvm team days me170pjd uvm edu
me170pjd emba news uvm edu uucp \( peter j demko \) subject pc parallel \( ! \) originator me170pjd emba uvm edu organization university vermont division emba computer facility lines 50 article sys6626 bison mb ca , baden sys6626 bison mb ca \( baden de bari \) erickson azure nmt edu \( alan erickson \) writes i'm trying bring 8 bits pc , would like use interrupt driven routines without buying io board making new port , bring bits \? lpt seems inputs , 've heard rumours lpts bidirectional lines anybody know fer sure \? bi lpts , boards \( 'll running new 386dx 33 \) \? yes , possible i'm making 7 stepper controller board , 7 digital inputs , \( \) 18 digital outputs port one main thing tell whether port bi directional bus look chip numbered n't , 's probably , good reading , following first , find address port , \( decimal \) either 888 , 632 pascal , would write \( port xxx \) xxx address either hex decimal status lines , pins 14 , 16 , 17 , well strobe , pin 1 , bi directional lines , read base address 2 , 888 , read status , read 890 also output lines fashion data lines pascal , port xxx value hope helps let know need help inspiration comes baden sys6626 bison mb ca \( \) baden inqmind bison mb ca seek baden de bari unknown happens , helped quite bit i'm considering building similar device something summer idea code 8 output bits multiple 2 bit current amplified output channels software handle way amplified outputs manipulated magic box handle applications stepper motors also looking robot arm \( cheap \) attach box wow impress friends hints \? peter j demko me170pjd uvm edu
josephc cco caltech edu \( joseph chiu \) subject pads organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 27 nntp posting host sandman caltech edu baden sys6626 bison mb ca \( baden de bari \) writes ago saw pads , 6 x8 could plugged \( something \) would glow one red , another green , another blue interresting wondering anyone would feed anything nature , price oh , pads rubber like floppy like , thick curiosities speak el \( electro \) pads mostly used lcd 's , pointed , comes several different colors many emit white ish colors \( true white , blue blue ones 've personally encountered often \) vary input requirements , however , tend operate 100 , much higher 60 hz \( 400 hz 1 khz , recall correctly \) get work 120 , 60 hz \( e , line \) n't glow , degrade much faster \( oh yes , almost forgot , el 's tendency wear time \) joseph chiu josephc cco caltech edu os 2 gotta get thing ! msc 380 caltech pasadena , ca 91126 dear ibm hire bunch technically incompetent people 1 818 449 5457 \( like brother \) test os 2 installation procedures
mpaul unl edu \( marxhausen paul \) subject pressure zone microphones organization university nebraska lincoln lines 28 distribution world nntp posting host unlinfo unl edu remember , back commercial mikes pzm label \( pressure zone microphone \) started showing , read article , engineering journal , described principles involved physics aside , standpoint author 's said built prototype nothing small sony mike laid large aluminum disk demonstrating presentation audio engineers , impressive enough people present bugging could buy anyway want build use mikes \( wide coverage \) 've good luck using small electret mike elements got digi key limited bandwidth , units buck two got ones spec 'd go 20khz bit flatter response distance mike opening flat plate kind critical i'm debating whether mount 's side , puts opening shade plate , mounting opening actually pointing plate small clearance n't unit like buy radio shack see thoughts \? paul marxhausen university nebraska lincoln grace happens
jeffj cbnewsm cb att com \( jeffrey n jones \) subject spice xt co \? organization distribution usa lines 10 want run spice xt learn amplifiers version run xt math co , get \? thanks help ! jeff jeff jones oppose north american free trade agreement ! jeffj seeker com canada usa free trade cost canada 400 , 000 jobs bbs 415 778 want guess many 'll lose mexico \?
tgk cs toronto edu \( todd kelley \) subject pc parallel \( ! \) organization department computer science , university toronto lines 36 erickson azure nmt edu \( alan erickson \) writes i'm trying bring 8 bits pc , would like use interrupt driven routines without buying io board making new port , bring bits \? lpt seems inputs , 've heard rumours lpts bidirectional lines anybody know fer sure \? bi lpts , boards \( 'll running new 386dx 33 \) \? know sure everex magic ev 170a jumpered printer mode , general purpose bidirectional mode also , know sure ibm technical reference says following monochrome display printer adapter ibm parallel printer adapter essential external device try pull lines referring data lines ground later external device driving data pins \( violation usage ground rules \) time input , data latch contents accept responsibility incur damages kind result saying , ``i know sure , think able use traditional parallel port input port writing 0x data lines , reading data lines , external device drives '' input data , noise could make todd
wagner mala bc ca \( tom wagner , wizzard old audio visual equipment nanaimo campus \) subject circuit boards green \? organization malaspina college lines 67 article 1993apr27 mega com au , swanee megadata mega oz au \( geoff swan \) writes article 1993apr23 1720 mala bc ca , wagner mala bc ca \( tom wagner , wizzard old audio visual equipment nanaimo campus \) writes color board shows composition , hence use original older boards bakelite composition , brown phenolic \( spelling \) tan non filled fiberglass boards used computers green filled fiberglass blue teflon white rubbish reason colour boards depends solder mask used older boards \( bakelite phenolic \) rarely used solder mask \( boards suited well automatic stuffing soldering techniques \) hence colour compound used make days boards made fibreglass general purpose uses solder mask applied prevent close traces shorting one another soldering \( also prevent decomposition traces harsh environments \) light dark green boards seen dry film mask applied \( usually applied complete film produced \) blue \( red orange \) boards two part epoxy liquid resist formulation applied different manner 's lot info pro 's con 's , 's another story sla n go fo ill , risky b geoff swan \( research development \) swanee mega com au megadata pty ltd 2 37 waterloo rd , north ryde , 61 2 805 nsw 2113 , australia v \( fax \) 61 2 887 4847 sorry geoff , agree solder mask green , old days n't wave soldering machines \( another topic \) crew dozen ladies could stuff hand solder board like lightning ! board mask original query btw cheap electronic devices \( mainly 3rd world countries \) done brown boards seems electronics industry discovered cheap labor pools workers paid board assemble circuits home obviously hand soldered quite tape recorders brought canada red china china warranty equipment plug works 's one co workers spent year said failure rate box almost 50 also , original method making printed conductive ink regular printing press old friend press method developed used press print wood grain doors 73 , tom tom wagner , audio visual technician malaspina college nanaimo british columbia \( 604 \) 753 3245 , loc 2230 fax 755 8742 callsign ve7gda weapon 45 kentucky rifle snail mail site q4 , c2 rr 4 , nanaimo , british columbia , canada , v9r 5x9 recyle keep everything ! \( standard disclaimers apply \)
ferry dutentb et tudelft nl \( ferry \) subject serious e magazine summary starting group scientific articles pre publish keywords scientific papers , electronic magazine nntp posting host et tudelft nl organization delft university technology , dept electrical engineering lines 22 time 've thinking possiblity starting group scientific articles published \( perhaps summaries \) possible advantages would free fast acceptance online discussion readers would possible one group moderator publishing articles one perhaps without discussion best thing would articles would standard format would make possible print view documents camera ready perhaps postscript rich text format \? start new group \? anyone interrested \? greeting electronics research laboratory delft university technology delft holland
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject cleaning electronic equipment \? organization u toronto zoology lines 24 article adrian adrian cc utas edu au \( adrian lewis \) writes quick question standard lab solvents used clean electronic equipment components safely \( ie corrode , dissolve , short , etc equipment \) \? water \? \) methanol \? \? n't say kind electronic equipment mean 's hard give generic answer essentially solvent wo n't things like washing lubricant switches 've needed emergency cleaning job things , 've used distilled water key thing remember make sure gear completely dry powering let dry several days damn sure doubt methanol significant advantages water would wary , least dangerous even 's going harm equipment poisonous , believe 's known carcinogenic svr4 resembles high speed collision henry spencer u toronto zoology svr3 sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
willisw willisw eng clemson edu \( bill willis \) subject acceleration sensor \? organization engineering services , clemson university lines 22 article 1993apr27 walter bellcore com deaddio ski bellcore com \( michael deaddio \) writes anyone know type acceleration sensor electrical output sort \? would sense acceleration one direction thanx , mike michael deaddio \( mts \) work hard , play hard , bell communication research problem deaddio thumper bellcore com playing hard makes 201 829 5024 working harder mre 2q 260 systems , 4 park , acton , , ph \( 617 \) 263 1400 engineering , us rt 130 union ave , , nj ph \( 710 \) 892 cheap , mainly outputs fairly linear respect acceleration n't say range acceleration want measure , ways measure using additional information would helpful anyone may respond call , wish
nagle netcom com \( john nagle \) subject circuit boards green \? organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 17 ulan ee ualberta ca \( dale ulan \) writes kuusama kaarne cs tut fi \( kuusama juha , , , vtt , \) writes question anything important , still curious almost printed circuit boards green \? seen blue ones , red , yellow , company logo etc technical reason could marketing geniuses tought \( yet \) \? 's possible make boards colors , ad laser light show equipment offers circuit boards choice day \( tm \) colors usual light green color natural color dark green blue solder mask layer , suspect color dye john nagle
kludge grissom larc nasa gov \( scott dorsey \) subject pressure zone microphones organization nasa langley research center reptile farm lines 43 distribution world nntp posting host grissom larc nasa gov article crcnis1 unl edu mpaul unl edu \( marxhausen paul \) writes remember , back commercial mikes pzm label \( pressure zone microphone \) started showing , read article , engineering journal , described principles involved physics aside , standpoint author 's said built prototype nothing small sony mike laid large aluminum disk demonstrating presentation audio engineers , impressive enough people present bugging could buy yup , 's difficult anyway want build use mikes \( wide coverage \) 've good luck using small electret mike elements got digi key limited bandwidth , units buck two got ones spec 'd go 20khz bit flatter response panasonic cartridges n't bad , n't spectacular distance mike opening flat plate kind critical i'm debating whether mount 's side , puts opening shade plate , mounting opening actually pointing plate small clearance n't unit like buy radio shack see thoughts \? n't mount side call crown , company patent pzm , ask information construction use things may determine correct spacing noise source spectrum analyzer design panasonic cartridges uses tuned cavity front electret element increase high frequency response , going altering resistance cavity entrance crown nice book subject , though 's unfortunately rather short mathematics 's article many years back , still , application , 'll lot better buying cheap radio shack models using phil 's modifications get clean balanced output phil 's mods seem get reposted regular basis scott
dcs ed ac uk \( neil stevenson \) subject picking cable tv aerial organization department computer science , university edinburgh lines 31 article 1993apr27 mav com , mav com \( todd inch \) writes article 1993apr16 1 wcsub ctstateu edu ritterbus001 wcsub ctstateu edu writes regarding pointing antenna leaky catv cable wow , concept ! anybody want speculate non connection would fit theft cable services laws \? seems unless case specifically written legislation cable company would leg stand upon court well , catv company , us , accountable fcc much transmission cables make fact , 've heard first hand catv company asked inspect wiring home business find source rf leaks 've heard many vans rf detectors keep one eye drive street cable leaky enough usable signal , would guess 're probably violation fcc transmission laws england \( \? \) require permits operate tv ! ! ! supposedly , tv police drove around rf detectors looking whatever produced receiver n't registered i'm guessing purpose something else could get away taxing n't know tv police urban legend actuality tv police still us i'm afraid 1000 pound fine goes unlicensed users \( caught \)
csulo csv warwick ac uk \( mr j brown \) subject picking cable tv aerial organization computing services , university warwick , uk lines 29 nntp posting host clover csv warwick ac uk article 1993apr27 mav com mav com \( todd inch \) writes england \( \? \) require permits operate tv ! ! ! supposedly , tv police drove around rf detectors looking whatever produced receiver n't registered i'm guessing purpose something else could get away taxing n't know tv police urban legend actuality real , still pay licence fees receive tv detector vans pick , true tells channel watching also pick line time base freq , frame rate \( try lw mw radio near , picks sharp hum \) even watch \( poor quality though \) screen , picking radiating junk michael brown csulo csv warwick ac uk mjb dcs warwick ac uk lost interest \? \? 's bad 've lost apathy !
jhwhit01 ulkyvx louisville edu subject microcontroller questions newcomer organization university louisville lines 18 nntp posting host ulkyvx louisville edu anyone recommendations whether smart data \( print , digital sampling , etc \) would better implemented dma chip dedicated microcontroller \? essentially trying decide best way handle moving data port automatic handshaking memory area accessible main system processor use smart data dma microcontroller chip would best use \? fast , cheap , easy obtain would nice , wo n't limit choices fit characteristics even 8086 8088 \( 5 \) would want , sure better alternative like microcontroller \( e \) eprom essentially want hear dma microcontrollers simple interface move data one place another monitoring lines jeff white jhwhit01 ulkyvx louisville edu
wout dutentb et tudelft nl \( wout \) subject serious e magazine keywords scientific papers , electronic magazine nntp posting host et tudelft nl organization delft university technology , dept electrical engineering lines 30 ferry writes time 've thinking possiblity starting group scientific articles published \( perhaps summaries \) possible advantages would free fast acceptance online discussion readers would possible one group moderator publishing articles one perhaps without discussion best thing would articles would standard format would make possible print view documents camera ready perhaps postscript rich text format \? start new group \? anyone interrested \? greeting electronics research laboratory delft university technology delft holland yep ! sounds good suggestion sci electronics art \? best regards , wouter
srl terminus ericsson se \( steve \) subject universal phones days \? reply srl terminus ericsson se distribution world organization camtec electronics \( ericsson \) , leicester , england lines 23 nntp posting host article dns1 nmsu edu , nmsu edu \( peter herman \) writes lhe yang sics se lhe sics se \( lars henrik eriksson \) writes would suprised equipment compatible , fact new york telephone \( nynex \) spend lot money swedish switching equipment recently lars henrik eriksson internet lhe sics se guess brand equipment refer \) lars henrik pleased know name phones new mexico state university well got contract nmsu went digital phone system snip quite correct ! company name ericsson \( 'c' \) steve l
srl terminus ericsson se \( steve \) subject solvent duct tape adhesive \? reply srl terminus ericsson se distribution world organization camtec electronics \( ericsson \) , leicester , england lines 19 nntp posting host article mprgate mpr ca , vanderby mprgate mpr ca \( david vanderbyl \) writes lighter fluid butane 's absolutely non toxic extreme fire hazard definately n't want go stuff around \( use little old rag \) butane flammable gaseous non toxic \? effects inhale , allegedly , ca n't \( imho \) steve l
com \( \) subject acceleration sensor \? nntp posting host reply com organization z consulting group lines 23 article walter bellcore com , deaddio ski bellcore com \( michael deaddio \) writes anyone know type acceleration sensor electrical output sort \? would sense acceleration one direction thanx , mike sure , believe analog devices , makes relatively inexpensive acceleration sensor \( primarily use auto air bag systems \) know specs anything else , might give call find info z p box \( 408 \) 441 z consulting group san jose , ca com
aurora alaska edu subject cad program electronics \? organization university alaska fairbanks lines 12 nntp posting host acad3 alaska edu article zephyr grace cri nz , srgxnbs grace cri nz writes want cad program draw diagrams dragging elements onto screen , elements needed diverse vacuum tubes ics \( case pins \) try , windows shareware object oriented use high quality output bruce look spice pspice
aurora alaska edu subject looking good book pspice 5 2 organization university alaska fairbanks lines 8 nntp posting host acad3 alaska edu article acsu buffalo edu , v064mb9k ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( neil b gandler \) writes got copy spice 5 2 would like know published books market yet could get one would appreciate help thank neil gandler isbn 0 13 6
gsulliva enuxha eas asu edu \( glenn sullivan \) subject long distance ir detection summary facts long distance ir detection organization arizona state university distribution na lines 34 jvannes vms macc wisc edu writes designed built hardware 1988 would output logic level \( 567 tone detector \) upon detecting 500 led 28 feet away used motorola , biased linearly dc feedback loop servo variations sunlight \( 60hz lights \) used lenses allen sullivan would interested knowing sensing hardware use detector \? could detect angle location , system simply respond presence transmitter sensors field view \? phototransistor limiter feedback base control operating point \( expect really hurts noise figure ! comments phototransistor experts \? \) intended use atop stepper motor , provide headings beacons plan 3 4 beacons , different frequencies , room , tell 567 frequency phase lock one challenge available stepper 8 degree steps ! knowing headings beacon , would used surveyor technique determine robot location \( , ai n't going explain net \) given hindsight , would digitize amplified output self phototransistor circuit , correlate phase square waves several expected frequencies , extract amplitude beacon numerous steps , even 8 degree steps , knowledge angular response phototransistor , able rather accurately determine heading beacon allen sullivan
thomas tornblom nexus comm se \( thomas tornblom \) subject universal phones days \? reply wd cs tu berlin de 's message 26 apr 1993 10 20 23 gmt organization communicator nexus ab lines 36 article wd sam cs tu berlin de wd cs tu berlin de \( wolfgang diestelkamp \) writes article 1rg36hinnsr6 darkstar ucsc edu hugo cats ucsc edu \( hugo calendar \) writes i'm wondering tote american touch tone phone around sweden germany 's dc powered , buy special adapter europe question general electronics work buy different wall plug refit \( i'm sure 'd \) , would trick \? two things watch germany \( think holds sweden \) connections handle tone dialing , make sure phone set pulse dialing sweden , '0' first digit digits pushed one position makes dialing \( process converting numbers \) interesting task otherwise , technically problem connect foreign phone either german swedish phone system otoh neither would ever try , course illegal phone uses dtmf dialing , magic telecom operators seems agreed , complete non issue n't think switches sweden ca n't handle dtmf dialing switches digital n't magic fingers converts dtmf pulse dialing thomas real life thomas rnblom email thomas tornblom nexus comm se snail mail communicator nexus ab phone 46 18 171814 box 857 fax 46 18 696516 751 08 uppsala , sweden
wd cs tu berlin de \( wolfgang diestelkamp \) subject universal phones days \? organization technical university berlin , germany lines 23 utkvx utk edu nntp posting host sam cs tu berlin de mime version 1 0 content type text plain charset iso 8859 1 content transfer encoding 8bit reply iturriag utkvx utk edu 's message mon , 26 apr 1993 20 29 00 gmt article utkvx utk edu iturriag utkvx utk edu \( mr \) writes quite sure illegality using regular american phone home system vaguely remember years ago , deutsche split , , telekom discussion new regulation know cordless cellular phones still approved telekom , hold true regular phones \? areacode germany \( , near koeln \) use yes , equipment telekom approval number legal changed buy equipment somewhere else i'm pretty sure holds true sweden \( least read information years ago \) btw know lines sweden handle tone dialing , n't sure wolfgang diestelkamp wd cs tu berlin de wolfgang first gmd de
club cc cmu edu subject ultrasonic pest stories , advice , bunk , etc \? organization carnegie mellon computer club lines 36 distribution world nntp posting host club cc cmu edu article babb larc sdsu edu , babb sciences sdsu edu \( j babb \) writes ultrasonic pest devices ones 've seen use driven 35 85 khz swept oscillator evidence insects actually repelled devices \? anybody cite gov't pubs , independent lab studies \? saw another device supposedly altering electro magnetic field house wiring suppose couple hi freq signal ac wiring supposed repel \? \? \? \? \? wiring \? dont think 've wondering house wiring thing really doubt high pressure ultrasound annoying , \? given devices advertised effective everything insects rodents nasty dogs , say insect wo n't dog give headaches \? could much frequencies \? studies effects various pressure levels , bands , sweep patterns various life forms \? effective could \? certainly would want tell anyone safe nasty dogs carrying jeff babb babb sciences sdsu edu babb ucssun1 sdsu edu programmer , sdsu larc kurt snail 7 rd white pine software , inc nashua , nh club cc cmu edu bix genie k air pushed , filed , indexed , stamped , briefed , , numbered ! prisoner
gatech edu \( nguyen \) subject solvent duct tape adhesive \? reply gatech edu \( nguyen \) lines 35 another alternative cover adhesive another piece duct tape remove tape still n't work , try wd 40 article athena cs uga edu , mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) writes article stephens ngis stephens geod emr ca \( dave stephenson \) writes mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) writes n't know sure work , might try mek \( methyl ethyl keytone \? \) worked getting stickum left shelf paper , etc use mek sake wear safty glasses better still industrial goggles small est drop eye etc please watch attributions advocated using mek michael covington , associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu university georgia phone 706 542 0358 athens , georgia 30602 7415 u amateur radio n4tmi
mpaul unl edu \( marxhausen paul \) subject passive mixer organization university nebraska lincoln lines 32 distribution world nntp posting host unlinfo unl edu shaffer wendy yale edu \( wendy shaffer \) writes i'm trying build mixer friend mine run several things single boom box circuit uses op amp powered either couple 9v batteries using kind power supply catalog looking recently , passive mixer guitar advertised n't appear use power anyone know circuit would , could adapt rca jacks , save friend alot messing batteries plugs thanks well , fastest , mixer \( aside physically connecting inputs together directly \) run signal resistor common output resistors give isolation signal sources n't driving directly taking wild , seat pants guess , 'd say mixing high impedance sources like dynamic mikes , electric guitar pickups , etc , resistors ought maybe 5k 10k mixing line level stuff outputs walkman , , 'd go 1k input 1 output input 2 input 3 paul marxhausen university nebraska lincoln grace happens
rdell cbnewsf cb att com \( richard b dell \) subject lead acid batteries part 2 ! ! ! organization lines 39 article 1993apr27 1 ulkyvx louisville edu jhwhit01 ulkyvx louisville edu writes article 1993apr26 mprgate mpr ca , vanderby mprgate mpr ca \( david vanderbyl \) writes lots stuff deleted lead acid secondary cell discharge reaction exothermic glad dispute point n't want lead storage battery discharge , stored charged state equilibrium state winter , ground , covered concrete , dirt , wood , maintains cooler temperature average surrounding air battery heat capacity air less concrete , dirt , wood , heats faster conversely , air cools faster , normal storage procedure battery leave unheated garage basement storage surface often cooler surrounding air , battery temperature somewhere e g , basement air temperature may 70 f , floor temperature 65 f , battery temperature 66 f air temperature higher battery temperature heat reaction going move gradient floor temperature lower battery temperature , heat going move floor incredible heat sink might depend live know locally , winter ground , concrete floor , within sheds garages \( unheated \) warmer average air temperature air get warmer day , night , ground concrete definitely warmer , especially protected walls albedo effect nights longer several hours days rest quoted text deleted jeff white jhwhit01 ulkyvx louisville edu richard dell
cs uri edu \( andrew \) subject microcontroller questions newcomer organization computer science department , university rhode island lines 25 acooney netcom com \( alan \) writes discussion motorola vs intel uc 's words , add favorite serial level converters \( mac folks use cheaper , farther , faster drivers , pc users get suffer rs232 \) start using project ! think much software mac \? 've interested using microcontrollers applications long time , always impression would need ibm run debug compile etc software would like use i'm 6800 assembly , never needed except old motorola n't seem information mac software \( least local distributor n't \) department around little help well hope someone tell n't buy ibm work evaluation boards please send mail ! andrew andrew cs uri edu remind dog , 'll probably get along jane meow
tony morgan demon co uk \( tony kidson \) subject universal phones days \? distribution world organization modem palace reply tony morgan demon co uk x newsreader simple news 1 90 \( ka9q dis 1 21 \) lines 26 article 1993apr27 chpc utexas edu michael chpc utexas edu writes imply german tone dialing compatible american one \? know least british system supposedly close enough though american phone work modem \( american \) special setting british standards ! wrong answer uk tone dialling identical us system different settings modem uses ccitt tones data transmission , rather bell 103 bell 121 tones , used usa canada people use least , largely irrelevant tony tony kidson pgp 2 2 key request voice 44 81 466 5127 morgan towers , cat move e mail \( order \) morgan road , 've take top tony morgan demon co uk bromley , machine tny cix compulink co uk england br1 3qe honda st1100 dod 0801 100024 301 compuserve com
wtm uhura neoucom edu \( bill mayhew \) subject wd 40 moisture repellant \( lead acid batteries c organization northeastern ohio universities college medicine lines 22 bit surprised manual fluke 87 suggests applying wd 40 test lead sockets , especially current range socket intention prevent test lead wrong beeper going test lead socket manual bit vague , think 'd apply wd 40 , wipe socket instead stuff directly speaking said meters compared 87 've bench almost 11 years five years since calibrated dc scale , agree within 01 mv ac scale within 1 mv 87 would perfect portable meter db scale n't feel worth extra 100 second since n't use db much work bill mayhew neoucom computer services department rootstown , oh 44272 9995 usa phone 216 325 2511 wtm uhura neoucom edu \( 140 220 1 1 \) 146 580 n8wed
kludge grissom larc nasa gov \( scott dorsey \) subject using generated power large sound systems \? organization nasa langley research center reptile farm lines 34 nntp posting host grissom larc nasa gov article slack sim es com slack sim es com \( pete \) writes 've bothered rental shops audio shops problem , precious little experience dealing generated power suspicion n't really need anything larger could resolved transformer sort nope problem either caused excessive voltage drop long cable generator , plain enough power would suspect amps going draw lot current short peaks try using larger \( shorter \) cables generator , try strapping amps 240v service running 240v mains cables , minimize line drop n't work , though , 're going need bigger generator assume 're using well maintained generators , watched voltage output generator properly n't 120v coming unloaded generator 'll never get 120v end anyone offer advice \? want lot outdoor events summer , would nice power problem could resolved easily 've looking buying power pack could tap junction boxes directly , idea start one would resolve generator problems well would high value recommend talk electrician experience sort work , pro audio people also , recommend n't try tap junction boxes , hire licensed electrician n't really know 've clean two people nearly killed playing hot 200a boxes , n't much fun scott
kludge grissom larc nasa gov \( scott dorsey \) subject request specified organization nasa langley research center reptile farm lines 17 nntp posting host grissom larc nasa gov article 1993apr27 walter bellcore com deaddio ski bellcore com \( michael deaddio \) writes basically , looking something operate ranges accelerations found automobile environment would like device operate trigger systems car 's deceleration reaches threshold value \( assume seat belt lock mechanisms air bag deployment systems work \? \) open one airbag control boxes inexpensive know gm cars use units cheapest way get existing automotive unit incidentally , things n't linear , application would fine job scott
astro ocis temple edu \( chris \) subject sony receiver organization temple university lines 32 nntp posting host astro ocis temple edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 gotten 8 9 years digital receiver , acting verry strange late hope following symptoms may help someone diagnose error know whatever lithium memory backup long died thus unplug wo n't remember presets given listening remote \( tried changing remote 's batteries \) try remote function receiver registers received \( green remote light flashes \) right function n't happen function \( also strange hit mute button , example , display panel goes black yikes 've never seen \) started , system turned sometimes wo n't play radio station , kinda twist \( yes kinda flex motherboard , chasis \) get radio tuning back aux function always works however inconvenient , inconvenient enough pay expensive repair fee , i'm hardware guy , wonder something simple surge quick fix strange thing symptoms come go someone told unit series bad voltage amp chip anyway
stephens geod emr ca \( dave stephenson \) subject solvent duct tape adhesive \? nntp posting host ngis geod emr ca organization dept energy , mines , resources , ottawa lines 23 mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) writes n't know sure work , might try mek \( methyl ethyl keytone \? \) worked getting stickum left shelf paper , available paint stores use carbon gas mask lots ventilation stuff really stinks ! michael covington , associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu university georgia phone 706 542 0358 athens , georgia 30602 7415 u amateur radio n4tmi use mek sake wear safty glasses better still industrial goggles small est drop eye blindness reaction non starts results similar mustard gas contamination note mek peroxide form fibreglass dave stephenson geological survey canada ottawa , ontario , canada internet stephens geod emr ca
cbnewsb cb att com \( david boyle \) subject solvent duct tape adhesive \? organization distribution usa lines 11 comments deleted wrong ! ! butane used butane lighter 's use petroleum btw wanna find benzene take look spray cleaner stuff take adhesive paint melt plastic n't melt plastic , least n't melted plastic bottle bought yet maybe 'd better go check bottle , awhile \)
conradie firga sun ac za \( gerrit conradie \) subject serious e magazine summary starting group scientific articles pre publish keywords scientific papers , electronic magazine organization university stellenbosch , sa lines 28 article 1993apr27 et tudelft nl ferry dutentb et tudelft nl \( ferry \) writes subject serious e magazine summary starting group scientific articles pre publish keywords scientific papers , electronic magazine time 've thinking possibility starting group scientific articles published \( perhaps summaries \) possible advantages would free distribution fast acceptance online discussion authors readers would possible one group moderator publishing articles one perhaps without discussion think great , idealistic idea first try publish worthy paper credible , professional magazine community like usenet infamous lots \( \) junk information papers published , general , low quality also , improbable credit given researcher publish sadly , nowadays main reason publishing usenet great informal discussions free exchange ideas keep like new , specialist group worth gerrit
wtm uhura neoucom edu \( bill mayhew \) subject circuit boards green \? organization northeastern ohio universities college medicine lines 17 fiberglass boards available several colors sitting right , board stock white , blue , green yellow respectively 've also seen black boards solder mask available variety colors depending supplier , color helps material n't forget coating n't think 've seen phenolic impregnated paper boards anything brown , would difficult add dye change color bill mayhew neoucom computer services department rootstown , oh 44272 9995 usa phone 216 325 2511 wtm uhura neoucom edu \( 140 220 1 1 \) 146 580 n8wed
conradie firga sun ac za \( gerrit conradie \) subject make disks copy protected \( continued \) organization university stellenbosch , sa lines 31 article sehari 201 cc iastate edu sehari iastate edu \( babak sehari \) writes sehari iastate edu \( babak sehari \) subject make disks copy protected \( continued \) date wed , 28 apr 1993 01 54 31 gmt discussion old topic went wrong direction people , instead discussing issue , decided discuss non technical part issue , go limited knowledge issue hoping guys cut crap talk real technical ways methods aware effective 1 laser hole burning would leave disk damaged , format particular sector disk write laser holes \( \) used prevent someone making exact copies disk want write damaged disk , read use programs hard crackers damage disk exactly way remember program called could copy disk laser hole think laser hole copying disk program , necessary , used conjunction program called something \( program tells program use \) solution gerrit
conradie firga sun ac za \( gerrit conradie \) subject info flux gate coils magnetometer \? keywords flux gate , magnetometer organization university stellenbosch , sa lines 19 article endor endor sim es com \( bryce buck \) writes subject info flux gate coils magnetometer \? keywords flux gate , magnetometer interested finding sources design information flux gate coils flux gate \( digital compass \) please respond via e mail sorry , news reader n't want reply 1 \) ling , c space application , ieee journal spacecraft , vol 1 , 2 , march april 1964 , pp 175 180 , usable background information 2 \) , electronics world wireless world , september 1991 , pp 726 732 great ! circuit diagrams etc building compass gerrit
rdell cbnewsf cb att com \( richard b dell \) subject lead acid batteries part 2 ! ! ! organization lines 58 article cbfsb cb att com rdell cbnewsf cb att com \( richard b dell \) writes article 1993apr27 1 ulkyvx louisville edu jhwhit01 ulkyvx louisville edu writes article 1993apr26 mprgate mpr ca , vanderby mprgate mpr ca \( david vanderbyl \) writes lots stuff deleted lead acid secondary cell discharge reaction exothermic glad dispute point n't want lead storage battery discharge , stored charged state equilibrium state winter , ground , covered concrete , dirt , wood , maintains cooler temperature average surrounding air battery heat capacity air less concrete , dirt , wood , heats faster conversely , air cools faster , normal storage procedure battery leave unheated garage basement storage surface often cooler surrounding air , battery temperature somewhere e g , basement air temperature may 70 f , floor temperature 65 f , battery temperature 66 f air temperature higher battery temperature heat reaction going move gradient floor temperature lower battery temperature , heat going move floor incredible heat sink might depend live know locally , winter ground , concrete floor , within sheds garages \( unheated \) warmer average air temperature air get warmer day , night , ground concrete definitely warmer , especially protected walls albedo effect nights longer several hours days rest quoted text deleted jeff white jhwhit01 ulkyvx louisville edu richard dell sorry following article , wanted continue might missed important thing might temperature differences per se , action heat sinking battery someone could conduct experiment , taking two identical lead acid batteries , placing wooden shelves , putting one water bath designed act heat sink would eliminate floor , keep batteries ambient temperature think argument temperatures pertinent , one heat conductance removing exothermic heat may validity richard dell
banschbach vms ocom okstate edu subject candida \( yeast \) bloom , fact fiction lines 68 nntp posting host vms ocom okstate edu organization osu college osteopathic medicine article hsdndev harvard edu , rind enterprise bih harvard edu \( david rind \) writes article 1993apr22 1 vms ocom okstate edu banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes poster treated liscenced physician disease exist calling physician quack reprehensible steve see others well believe quacks exist \? quack diagnoses \? licensed physician enough guarantee someone quack , even licensed physician quack , people n't say \? give example commonly diagnosed ailment think quack diagnosis , gotten point civilization longer need worry unscrupulous healers taking advantage people david rind n't like term quack applied licensed physician david questionable conduct appropriately called unethical \( opinion \) 'll give examples 1 prescribing controlled substances patients demonstrated need \( drug addition \) medication 2 prescribing thyroid patients normal thyroid function purpose quick weight loss 3 using laetril treat cancer patients treatment shown ineffective dangerous \( cyanide release \) nci errors commission competently trained physicians sometimes also errors omission \( result malpractice suits \) n't think using anti fungal agents try relieve discomfort patient suspect may problem candida \( another fungal growth \) error commission omission healers long history trying relieve human suffering stuck standard , approved procedures , others willing try reasonable treatment chance help patient key tied healer 's oath , harm know david treatments involve risk patient job physician difficult one risk versus benefit weighed physician deals risk benefit paradox little differently conservative others agressive agressive approach may costly patient carry risk long motive improving patient 's health attempt rake lots money \( schemes uncovered medicare fraud cases \) , n't see need label healers quacks even unethical reserve term quack \? pseudo medical professionals people health care system waiting frustrated patient fall lair individuals really pretty good job providing alternative medicine many lack formal training business simply make fast bucks patient reasonably assured getting competent care liscenced physician consulted , alternative care area really buyer 's beware arena lucky , may find someone help unlucky , loose lot money develop severe disease inability pseudo medical professional diagnose disease \( physicians \) hope clears things david marty b
pat pat com subject help reflux esophagitis content type text plain charset us ascii organization , inc mime version 1 0 lines 32 writing find following 1 \) information surgery prevent reflux esophagitis 2 \) name \( \) doctor \( \) specialize surgery 3 \) information reflux esophagitis leads cancer boyfriend , age 34 otherwise good health , diagnosed reflux esophagitis hernia 2 years ago time saw tried acid controllers \( , \) , well restricted diet raising head bed treatments effective damage , opted surgical repair 3 months ago told two repair techniques could fix problem wrap hill repair opted hill repair recovered well surgery pain originally worse addition trouble swallowing \( including saliva \) doctor wants endoscopy also informed biopsy might necessary pre condition called barrett 's syndrome ca n't avoid reflux necessarily get cancer \? basically , anyone information , 'd appreciate thanks , pat , inc pat com
bmdelane quads uchicago edu \( brian manning delaney \) subject diet crohn 's \( ibd \) keywords ibd crohn 's disease epa reply bmdelane midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 31 article uabdpo dpo uab edu spam dom uab edu uabdpo dpo uab edu ! gila005 \( stephen holland \) writes article 1993apr23 midway uchicago edu , bmdelane quads uchicago edu \( brian manning delaney \) wrote one thing n't seen thread discussion relation ibd inflammation profile ingested fatty acids \( fas \) even write letter editor good point way , abbreviation epa general use , know fatty acid speaking sorry mean acid brian u c physician named stephen recognized expert treatment ibd might give call , yesterday \( finally \) referred clinic i'm seeing may 24 'll report says question treatment ibd call please say hello , looking u c position , perhaps still brian delaney
aldridge netcom com \( jacquelin aldridge \) subject \( sp \? \) fat free diet pregnancy ! ! organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 123 heart access digex com \( g \) writes hi , 've returned visit ob gyn concerns maybe y'all help 've seeing every 4 weeks past months \( i'm week 28 \) last 2 visits 've gained 9 9 1 2 pounds every 4 weeks said unacceptable 4 week period stands 've thus far gained 26 pounds also says though i'm 28 weeks baby 's size 27 weeks , think mentioned 27 inches top 13 weeks baby 's size 14 weeks must also add , operation years ago endometriosis 've problems endometriosis apparently causing pain pelvic region pregnancy , difficult time moving , doc recommended walk move unless \( little handicapped sticker need go \) anyway 's 1 2 situation almost beginning pregnancy getting sick \( throwing \) 2 3 times day mostly bile eliminated \( told \) know n't eating much due nausea could see well get sick every 1 2 weeks , still bile related addition begun feel movement near upper right abdomen , right breast , usually lying right side began get worse though started hurt lay right side , hurt matter position next , noticed ate greasy fatty foods felt like entire abdomen turned stone , pain area got worse however ate sauerkraut vinegar something fat n't much problem doctor says cholistatis , avoid fatty foods makes sense , already aware seemed cause effect relationship avoiding foods i'm still able eat foods cheese instance low fat foods doc wants non fat diet means meat except fish chicken w skin \( anyway \) nuts , fried food , cheese etc allowed skim milk said avoid anything sweet \( e g bananas \) also must one serving something high carbohydrates day \( potatoes , pasta , rice \) ! said ca n't even cook vegetables little bit oil eat vegetables raw steamed i'm concerned understand need fat diet help digestive process i'm taking fat , expecting baby take stores \? restriction carbohydrates 's concerned fat \? i'm clear much recommendation based weight gain much cholistatis , ca n't seem find information originally said gain 20 pounds entire pregnancy since 20 lbs overweight started sister gained 60 lbs pregnancy 's taken n't problems also asked members family obese , none anyway think overly concerned weight gain , feel like i'm severe diet want see one week think diet may temporary one week want know reasonable non fat diet \? would understand said low fat diet , since i'm trying anyway , even said really low fat diet think assumes must eating high fat diet , really endometriosis operation i'm able use energy food eat opinions , info experiences appreciated i'm truly going stark raving mad trying meet new strict diet fruits vegetables go system minutes 'll end eat constantly thus far n't find foods satisfying thanks g one week , probably wants see react diet changes anything live diet need calories pat butter need medium apple \( probably microwave cooked \) smaller meals terrific amounts meat , 's hard digest anyway comfort make carbohydrate meal last longer eat pasta rice give calories slowly rather bread corn maybe smaller meals may getting less room stomach area baby still coming starting push rub ribs \? tight clothes n't wearing clothing compresses middle sure suck stomach sitting , put pressure digestive tract try laying sides , back , stay positions many hours inactive easier legs \( circulation \) well might try letting baby turn least forced ribs last months 's easy baby end right diaphram , especially tight abdominal muscles second one think 'd tried loosen since n't turn sideways late relief enormous maybe doctor thing weight gain pregnancy maybe patients way especially 's young whatever problem might coming something avoided possible nausea , etc vary person person pregnancy first pregnancy miserable second little trouble articles said women nausea statistically better chance carrying baby \( grain salt \) good luck jackie
aldridge netcom com \( jacquelin aldridge \) subject candida \( yeast \) bloom , fact fiction organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 52 rind enterprise bih harvard edu \( david rind \) writes article 1993apr22 1 vms ocom okstate edu banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes poster treated liscenced physician disease exist calling physician quack reprehensible steve see others well believe quacks exist \? quack diagnoses \? licensed physician enough guarantee someone quack , even licensed physician quack , people n't say \? give example commonly diagnosed ailment think quack diagnosis , gotten point civilization longer need worry unscrupulous healers taking advantage people david rind sure quacks quacks n't treat quacks treat one 's refuse diagnose ones diagnose improperly lucky quacks unlucky quacks smart quacks dumb ones people ahead time , unproven theories ill reasoned , absurd , theorists sometimes 's hard tell 's reading book ancient jokes seems doctors called doctors quacks babylon arguments abound n't firm answers plenty illnesses n't , ca n't , diagnosed treated think 's better argue theory , originally done postings candida month ago stating facts usually works better simply asserting opinion someone 's competency ca n't convince everybody sometimes correct diagnosis takes years people n't run doctor recognizes disease , n't developed something recognizable yet , something one going recognize , n't described yet sometimes get cure , sometimes illness wears , sometimes stumble improper diagnosis right treatment , sometimes find 's incurable profit patient accepting hopeless attitude illness unless 's rock solid diagnosis terminal disease 's like ly person find cure keep looking jackie
rind enterprise bih harvard edu \( david rind \) subject quack quack \( candida \( yeast \) bloom , fact fiction \) organization beth israel hospital , harvard medical school , boston mass , usa lines 44 nntp posting host enterprise bih harvard edu article netcom com noring netcom com \( jon noring \) writes article rind enterprise bih harvard edu \( david rind \) writes believe quacks exist \? quack diagnoses \? licensed physician enough guarantee someone quack , even licensed physician quack , people n't say \? would say also significant numbers unscrupulous doctors \( squeaky clean , traditional crew cut , talk ama starting treatment , kind \) umm , n't one objecting someone licensed physician called quack \? licensed physician good defense charges quackery physician agrees system beliefs \? lately 've seen word quack bandied recklessly actually , almost never use term quack discuss systemic yeast syndrome , however , always point mainstream medicine views quack diagnosis \( agree characterization \) let put another way make point clear quack nebulous word lacking precision really \? bet virtually everyone reading posts understands steve dyer , gordon banks , implying talked systemic yeast syndrome quack diagnosis would prefer word \? \( n't happen think quacks since suspect believe diseases diagnosing \) \( p , may suggest seriously doctors wanna doctors net refuse open mind alternative treatments theories , yeast theory , create moderated group \? reason feel n't pointed sci med convincing empirical evidence support existence systemic yeast syndrome \? david rind rind enterprise bih harvard edu
zikzak apana org au \( paul anderson \) subject need radiologist read ultrasound \? organization zikzak public access unix , melbourne australia lines 40 nntp posting host zikzak apana org au dougb comm mot com \( doug bank \) writes wife 's ob gyn ultrasound machine office next visit , wife asked another doctor office read ultrasounds radiologist read pictures doctor vehemently insisted qualified read ultrasound ! wife concerned saw tv show couple months back \( something like 20 20 nbc , etc \) expert fetal ultrasounds \( radiologist \) showing different could detected using ultrasound wife concerned \? take pictures radiologist second opinion \? \( , would find expert chicago \? \) n't really special medical reason concerned , radiologist able see things ob gyn ca n't , n't see n't use one thoughts \? far see ultrasound rooms use interpretation , capable reading radiologist doctors qualified read x rays , u , ct scans etc radiologist nothing else , thus , better reading time spent \( skill reading x rays etc comes plenty practice \) reads heaps ultrasounds able pick abnormalities demonstrated technique paul zikzak public access unix , melbourne , australia
ken isis cns caltech edu \( ken miller \) subject quack quack \( candida \( yeast \) bloom , fact fiction \) organization california institute technology lines 59 nntp posting host isis cns caltech edu article hsdndev harvard edu rind enterprise bih harvard edu \( david rind \) writes article netcom com noring netcom com \( jon noring \) writes \( p , may suggest seriously doctors wanna doctors net refuse open mind alternative treatments theories , yeast theory , create moderated group \? reason feel n't pointed sci med convincing empirical evidence support existence systemic yeast syndrome \? n't know first thing yeast infections scientist scientist would take statement convincing empirical evidence support existence systemic yeast syndrome tell anything except absence data question noring pointed catch 22 crazy theory true , probably could n't find direct evidence could n't observe present methods even noring fellow oklahoma \( sorry , forgot name \) also suggested one set anecdotal evidence favor based personal experiences namely , people certain conditions given anti fungals , many appear get better , evidence hypothesis example , controlled double blind studies showing anti fungals n't better sugar water let 's hear n't , anecdotal uncontrolled evidence one side , abject disbelief case , please , point yelling back forth longer since neither side convincing evidence either positive negative understand abject disbelief based existence people may get famous make money applying diagnosis everything sight , making wild claims evidence , always refusing controlled studies absolutely bearing apparently sincere experiences people net observing anti fungals working people certain specific cases also quacks sell oral , spite fact 's completely broken guts , n't change genuine scientific knowledge role fighting oxidative damage thing cause candida quacks , n't establish evidence candida hypothesis 's reason \( besides quacks \) , anecdotal , think could true , considered , net people talking , point arguing anecdotal evidence , convincing evidence , also candida quacks , hope everyone agree thus , appears main question whether proponents marshall enough anecdotal evidence convincing documented enough manner make good case carrying good controlled double blind study \( else , forget convincing anybody else carry test , carry ! \) also , whether adequately define patient population symptoms study carried provide fair test hypothesis ken
aldridge netcom com \( jacquelin aldridge \) subject eye dominance organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 35 bbenowit telesciences com \( barry benowitz \) writes article c5e2g7 877 world std com rsilver world std com \( richard silver \) writes right eye dominance \( eyedness \? \) overall right handedness population \? mean people require less lens corrections one eye \? , kinds percentages attached \? thanks yes , thing eye dominance , although sure dominance refers strength recall , selectively close dominant eye , image shifts happen close eye believe eye dominant related handedness , ca n't recall relation moment barry benowitz read great book eye dominance several years ago one book least one \) several types eye dominance person looks memory usually indicates type eye another type related coordination activities like hitting ball another reading n't read one discussed prescription strength although people bad vision , near far sighted would tend depend stronger eye jackie
aldridge netcom com \( jacquelin aldridge \) subject sweet 's syndrome \? organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 28 brother 's affine recently diagnosed sweet 's syndrome also called steroid resistant sweet 's syndrome syndrome started 131 treatment 'd reluctant treatment many years apparently started show understand may still testing high thyroid level 's n't treated endocrinologist previous endocrinologist entered hospital entered hospital sweet 's syndrome symptoms \( skin lesions \) 've looked last two years medline n't find abstract mentioning correlation thyroid sweets checked handbook said sweet 's associated 'd like experts new york city travel new york city sweets perhaps information might help apparently n't much improvement condition past several months jackie
sharon world std com \( sharon \) subject srebrenica hell summary 's like without modern medicine war organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 84 doctor living hell laura pitter tuzla , bosnia , reuter mujanovic pathologist mountains besieged muslim town srebrenica last august treating 4 , 000 mangled victims bosnia 's bloody war , considers surgeon i'm surgeon great experience although license practice operate person lives normally 's greatest license surgeon could '' evacuated u n week home town tuzla , muslim physician gave eyewitness medical assessment horrors year long serb siege srebrenica suffering thousands trapped ``i lived hell together people srebrenica lived greatest heroes humanity produce , '' told reporters mujanovic , 31 , practiced two months assistant local hospital tuzla , going srebrenica never performed surgical operation says performed major surgery 1 , 396 times , relying books guidance , arms legs 150 times , usually without anesthetic , delivering 350 babies performing four cesarean sections worked 18 19 hour days , slept hospital first 10 weeks arrival last aug 5 treated 4 , 000 patients arrived making trek mountains foot tuzla , 60 miles northwest srebrenica 50 people carried supplies 350 soldiers guided protected guerrilla terrain , said worst memory 10 days ago seven serb shells landed within one minute area half size football field , killing 36 people immediately wounding 102 half dead women children people come rare day sunshine children playing soccer ``there warning blood flowed like river street , '' said ``there pieces women around could piece together one woman holding two children hands lying ground dead heads '' mujanovic arrived supplies conditions deplorable , said many deaths could prevented hospital surgical tools , facilities medicine six general practitioners operating arrived even less surgical experience n't know basic principles limbs '' arrived situation improved , said , mid september run supplies washed five times sometimes falling apart hands , '' said doctors anesthetic could give patients alcohol numb pain increased bleeding completely conscious stomach operations , '' said blood transfusions impossible facilities test blood types ``i felt destroyed psychologically , '' mujanovic said situation improved dec 4 , convoy arrived medical group sans mujanovic said military mid december bosnian serbs began major offensive region day air strikes '' hunger set mid december mid march , u planes began air dropping food , 20 30 people dying every day complications associated malnutrition , said ``i know sure air drop operation saved people massive death hunger starvation , '' said according mujanovic , around 5 , 000 people died srebrenica , 1 , 000 children , year siege mujanovic plans return srebrenica three weeks visiting wife , ill tuzla say i'm hero , '' said ``there thousands people standing sides road , crying waving left cried '' sharon framingham , usa e mail sharon world std com
turpin cs utexas edu \( russell turpin \) subject great post ! \( candida bloom \) organization cs dept , university texas austin lines 31 nntp posting host saltillo cs utexas edu article netcom com noring netcom com \( jon noring \) writes course , working theory candida overbloom penetration mucus membrane tissue associated mild inflammatory response occur large number people reject yeast hypothesis , 'd guess 'd view research one wasteful endeavor stay tuned enough medical expertise much opinion one way another hidden candida infections understand skepticism see associated various general kinds symptoms , lack solid demonstration happens causes general symptoms \( understand skepticism , one needs know past failures shared characteristics notion hidden candida infection quite , proponents thought skeptics overly skeptical \) hand , happy read people sufficiently interested possibility , spurred suggestive clinical experience , research doubters may surprised \( happened \) realize admitting ignorance face ignorance may sure know one way another \( , indeed , perhaps know one currently ignorant \) find honest route , happy russell
athena mit edu \( john angelo \) subject candida \( yeast \) bloom , fact fiction organization massachusetts general hospital lab computer science lines 54 nntp posting host mit edu article jon noring writes article rind enterprise bih harvard edu \( david rind \) writes believe quacks exist \? quack diagnoses \? true focus medical profession ama boards focus quacks instead unbelievable energy destroy pull licenses doctors trying non traditional fully accepted treatments desperate patients traditional accepted medicine cannot help prescribe itraconazole patient 's sinusitis neither ama , fda , state licensing board , knocking door ask specious argument backs pee pee obedience teach medical school throw authority around \? among things , evaluate new theories treatments let put another way make point clear quack nebulous word lacking precision sole use obfuscate issues hand funny , thought meant one ability experience diagnosis treatment disease effects achieved treatment offers \( 's 27th \) certainly precision conveyed chronic yeast indiscriminate use word sure sign coming medical doctor \( wanna \) , competency expected , real scary inability discriminate erroneous representations far frightening fraud promote treatment evidence either lacking knows , error honest practitioner n't know failure speak either \( p , may suggest seriously doctors wanna doctors net refuse open mind alternative treatments theories , yeast theory , create moderated group may reply seriously practitioners proponents non scientific medicine left minds open parts brains critical evaluation fallen , learn edit newsgroup headers conform existing hierarchy divisions john angelo lab computer science mit edu massachusetts general hospital eternal student boston , massachusetts , usa earth , connected network walt whitman
ab961 freenet carleton ca \( robert allison \) subject frequent nosebleeds reply ab961 freenet carleton ca \( robert allison \) organization national capital freenet lines 37 previous article , mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) says article chevron com \( beverly zalan \) writes 6 year son plagued lots vaseline nose night seems keep control let get , 'll recur days ! also allergies , colds , dry air seem contribute , vaseline , ointment , seem keep recurring get , might want try canadian counter product called secaris , water soluble gel compared vaseline greasy , secaris seems compatible moisture 's already secaris reasonably inexpensive \( 6 00 cdn tube \) , indeed counter medication appear available us , n't know 's manufactured montreal 's nasal lubricant , intended help nosebleeds result dry mucous membranes replies original posting , 's evident people enough mucous keep nose lining protected environmental influences \( ie , dry air \) 've responses anyone experience rutin another newsgroup might specifics remedies \? thanks reply experiences robert allison
elg silver lcs mit edu \( elizabeth glaser \) subject net address organization mit laboratory computer science lines 18 looking email address world health organization , particular address department nursing chief scientist nursing dr miriam snail mail address following world health organization 20 avenue 1211 geneva 27 switzerland please respond directly thank assistance elg elizabeth glaser , rn elg silver lcs mit edu
uxa ecn bgu edu \( todd r \) subject request gyro \( souvlaki \) sauce organization educational computing network lines 23 nntp posting host uxa ecn bgu edu article 1993apr23 sandiego ncr com ncr com \( dave lord \) writes article terminator rs itd umich edu , donald mackie donald mackie med umich edu writes article 1993apr22 locus com michael trofimoff , tron fafnir la locus com writes would anyone 'net land' happen authentic , sure fire way making great sauce used adorn gyro 's souvlaki \? i'm sure exact recipe , i'm sure acidophilus one major ingredients \) 's plain yoghurt cucumber \( spices sometimes used \) people use half yoghurt half kind made used lite sour cream instead yogurt may good , prefer taste small bits addition may also finish sauce nicely uxa ecn bgu edu
galen med virginia edu \( robert e schmieg \) subject quack quack \( candida \( yeast \) bloom , fact fiction \) organization university virginia lines 48 ken isis cns caltech edu writes n't know first thing yeast infections scientist scientist would take statement convincing empirical evidence support existence systemic yeast syndrome tell anything except absence data question burden proof rests upon claim existence syndrome date , claims unsubstantiated available data hopefully , scientist , would take issue anyone conclusions based upon data present methods even noring fellow oklahoma \( sorry , forgot name \) also suggested one set anecdotal evidence favor based personal experiences namely , people certain conditions given anti fungals , many appear get better gee , many interesting enlightening anecdotes , friends , family , practice medicine expect demand rigorous basing therapy aunt susie 's brother law anecdotal evidence may provide inspiration hypothesis , rarely proves anything positive sense unlike mathematics , boolean logic rarely applies directly medical issues , evidence usually disprove rather modifies current concepts disease , evidence hypothesis example , controlled double blind studies showing anti fungals n't better sugar water let 's hear n't , anecdotal uncontrolled evidence one side , abject disbelief case , please , point yelling back forth longer since neither side convincing evidence either positive negative would characterize rather 'scientific outrage vastly appears main question whether proponents marshall enough anecdotal evidence convincing documented enough manner make good case carrying good controlled double blind study \( else , forget convincing anybody else carry test , carry ! \) also , whether adequately define patient population symptoms study carried provide fair test hypothesis problem approach happening diagnosis bob schmieg
noring netcom com \( jon noring \) subject lungs organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 34 putting aside substantial differences , 'd like ask knowledgeable ones give feedback let explain one family members last week discovered brain tumor difficulties walking writing \( 64 years old \) otherwise , fine health discovery made via cat scans mri scans done , small areas discovered lungs showed one spot lungs , another believe cancer started lungs caused brain tumor \( smoked four years ago \) anyway , 'd like feedback , different cancers , treated \( luckily tumor right skull easily removed \) , statistically chances full remission recovery \? thanks jon noring charter member infj club 're dying know infj means , brave , e mail , 'll send info jon noring noring netcom com jkn international ip 192 100 81 100 fred's gourmet chocolate 1312 carlton place phone \( 510 \) 294 8153 chips world 's best ! livermore , ca 94550 v mail \( 510 \) 417 4101 \? read alt psychology personality ! 's action
gw wmich edu subject prk referral canada organization western michigan university lines 9 could please refer someone perform prk \( photo refractive \) canada \( preferably eastern portion \) 've looked yellow pages little success , someone good \( bad , matter \) experience , would especially helpful could please let know thanks , kurt lab cc wmich edu \( preferred address \)
aldridge netcom com \( jacquelin aldridge \) subject \( sp \? \) fat free diet pregnancy ! ! organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 85 aldridge netcom com \( jacquelin aldridge \) writes decided come back amend quotes added comments heart access digex com \( g \) writes hi , started hurt lay right side , hurt matter position next , noticed ate greasy fatty foods felt like entire abdomen turned stone , pain area got worse however ate sauerkraut vinegar something fat n't much problem doctor says cholistatis , avoid fatty foods makes sense , already aware seemed cause effect relationship avoiding foods i'm still able eat foods cheese instance low fat foods doc wants non fat diet means meat except fish chicken w skin \( anyway \) nuts , fried food , cheese etc allowed skim milk said avoid anything sweet \( e g bananas \) also must one serving something high carbohydrates day \( potatoes , pasta , rice \) ! said ca n't even cook vegetables little bit oil eat vegetables raw steamed i'm concerned understand need fat diet help digestive process g one week , probably wants see react diet changes anything live diet need non fat calories pat butter , need medium apple \( probably microwave cooked \) smaller meals terrific amounts meat , 's hard digest anyway first , even fish , fat second , body make fat carbohydrates needs third , body , like peoples , n't bred live high fat , modern diet read texts ancient people read luxury eating fat , people enjoyed rare even cows n't put nearly amount milk comfort make carbohydrate meal last longer eat pasta rice give calories slowly rather bread corn maybe smaller meals may getting less room stomach area baby still coming starting push rub ribs \? tight clothes n't wearing clothing compresses middle sure suck stomach sitting , put pressure digestive tract try laying sides , back , stay positions many hours inactive easier legs \( circulation \) well might try letting baby turn least forced ribs last months 's easy baby end right diaphram , especially tight abdominal muscles second one think 'd tried loosen since n't turn sideways late relief enormous maybe doctor thing weight gain pregnancy maybe patients way especially 's young whatever problem might coming something avoided possible n't want become ill pregnant lucky work getting rid baby \( said doctors less surgery rest population , good part willing dieting , etc helps avoid surgery also , n't think surgery lets person go back eating high fat diet \) nausea , etc vary person person pregnancy first pregnancy miserable second little trouble articles said women nausea statistically better chance carrying baby \( grain salt \) good luck jackie
mary uicsl csl uiuc edu \( mary e allison \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? organization center reliable high performance computing , university illinois urbana champaign lines 192 nntp posting host uicsl csl uiuc edu last words subject lundby rtsg mot com \( walter f lundby \) writes person sensitive msg whose wife kids , want know food industry wants put msg food ! ! ! people think flavor personally n't think helps taste , makes sick , try avoid dyer spdcc com \( steve dyer \) writes sez effect humans demonstrated controlled studies infant mice models useful far go , 're relevant matter hand say favor use things like baby food patently ridiculous use additive reason believe msg diet effects humans adversely well , know msg effects adversely maybe permanently least temporarily enough like try avoid stuff kiran village com \( kiran wagle \) writes n't like additives , , get net learn cook scratch sheesh excuse ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ca n't people learn cook scratch net 've gotten lots recipes net n't use additives like additives get net go local supermarket , buy lots packaged foods , get net ! ! cover fact recipes good food poor quality \? yes , buy says something taste , eh \? n't ! ! happens companies forced submit silly notions go business nobody wants buy overpriced bad food \? \( removing directly raises food costs reducing shelf life \) hey 'll pay hard earned dollars buy food costs choose speak many ways kiran village com \( kiran wagle \) good point msg commonly used soups , bottled sauces , seasoning , coating barbecue potato chips cheese , many frozen fried foods \( like fish chicken \) , etc ad msg really problem , call barbecue potato chip syndrome maybe diner syndrome natural syndrome 's years since 've bought anything labelled natural kiran village com \( kiran wagle \) reaction came time msg food difference restaurant ingredients ! ! ! know \? order demonstrate claim , would preparation occasions perhaps used msg times , lied perhaps used something begun spoil , produced bizarre 're allergic well , similar reactions many times really started watching carefully reaction hey guess 's reaction 's season salt guess 's 'll give hint 've enough problems many many many different products msg figured one thing unless plan getting sick wo n't eat stuff without ever learn read labels please note saying making , trying point situation always simple might seem started checking every time got sick every time got sick msg somehow involved one food products consider similar ingredients \( knowledge \) might please medical researcher pleased personal physician enough give allergy medicine importantly 's enough proof avoid \( enough proof incredibly fiance n't literally threw gave away food products msg always 's waste simple explanation wo n't eat stuff , cook stuff , either throw give away \) ucsu colorado edu \( donna \) guess spice mix fries contained msg , probably 's seasoning salt love way tastes i'm saying never consume anything msg 've noticed certain tolerance level like \( small \) bag bbq chips month problem bag chips bother also chicken yesterday lunch one chinese restaurants day kelley healthy uwaterloo ca \( catherine l kelley \) 's needed final step , double blind study done humans n't even ethical question possible harm , widely used approved food additive say 2 population problem msg say 's like 20 let 's say 's 5 many people would tested would problem \? also know problem , would n't volunteer test like thanks guys n't want get sick also i'm sure people probably varying degrees different times cold i'm much susceptible reaction i'm healthy \( proven today i'm silly reason still gave decided bbq chips \) kiran village com \( kiran wagle \) many \( generic rhetorical 'you , ' 'you \) go around calling chinese restaurant syndrome , thus suggesting people complain experience chinese food msg prevalent lot things chinese food thats suggested calling diner syndrome cathy n't n't saved postings never called chinese restaurant syndrome never stated got chinese food thought would easiest conduct personal test chinese take place knew would hold \( hold \) msg ca n't call whoever makes ask make one back chips without msg hand , one complains potatoes mix , restaurant spice mixes , i'm going believe , anyone says got \( msg \) sick eating many barbecue potato chips party , i'm really going believe well , believe mentioned earlier post let 's see wrote message date 20 apr 1993 00 09 31 0500 date 19 apr 1993 16 33 18 gmt wrote anyone msg reaction something chinese restaurant \? lots times 's hard pin would probably easier 'd reaction certain type restaurant 've reaction chinese restaurants greek restaurants italian restaurants steak places \( tell steak joint uses accent meat \) oh case anyone thinks i'm prejudice either chinese food asian people i'm going home cook chinese food guy i'm marrying next week incidentally , last name wu stop flame mail woman work ten years change man 's habits complain 's man married \? mary allison \( mary uicsl csl uiuc edu \) urbana , illinois
jpc avdms8 msfc nasa gov \( j porter clark \) subject annual inguinal hernia repair keywords inguinal hernia nntp posting host avdms8 msfc nasa gov organization nasa msfc lines 27 last year , totally surprised annual physical disclosed inguinal hernia could n't remember anything would caused , n't lifting people , fact probably somewhat less eventually thing became painful repair operation year developed pain side turned another inguinal hernia go back hospital monday another fun 8 \) operation n't know anything i'm cause happen i'm 38 years old n't think i'm old enough things start falling apart like surgeon operation seems suspect congenital weakness , , suddenly appear 37 really active younger \? anyone know prevent hernia , lifting anything \? 's rare lift 16 month old sack full groceries , may noticed typical grocery sack fairly small days sort exercise reduce risk \? course , wife thinks 's sitting long periods time computer , reading news j porter clark jpc avdms8 msfc nasa gov jpc gaia msfc nasa gov nasa msfc flight data systems branch
subject calcium deposits heart valve john com \( john \) distribution world organization executive network information system lines 6 friend , 62 year old man , calcium deposits one heart valves causes happen done \? john com
nyx cs du edu \( vinay rao \) subject density skull bone x disclaimer nyx public access unix system run university denver denver community university neither control responsibility opinions users organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept distribution usa lines 12 could someone tell density skull bone direct reference contains info \? would appreciate much thanks vinay vinay j rao nyx cs du edu
grante aquarius rosemount com \( grant edwards \) subject krillean photography nntp posting host aquarius reply grante aquarius rosemount com \( grant edwards \) organization rosemount , inc lines 16 holfeltz lstc2vm stortek com writes know ready , pattern energy field significant , n't already know 've never even heard energy field care explain \? 's years since last fields class may forgotten \( maybe skipped day \) anyway , ross perot said , i'm ears well , eyes case grant edwards yow ! something violent rosemount inc going happen garbage \? grante aquarius rosemount com
nyx cs du edu \( vinay rao \) subject perception doctors health care x disclaimer nyx public access unix system run university denver denver community university neither control responsibility opinions users organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept distribution usa lines 124 following article columnist mike royko humorous commentary public 's perception doctors salaries hope find amusing reprinted w permission 's cure stupidity poll doctors' salaries mike royko tribune media services stupidity scale , recent poll doctors' earnings right almost scored perfect brain dead 10 commissioned consumers group called families usa poll tells us majority americans believe doctors make much money pollsters also asked fair income would physicians polled said , oh , 80 , 000 year would ok generous sporting stupid poll stupid \? based resentment envy , two emotions ran hot political campaign still could conduct kind poll group earns 100 , 000 plus get results since majority americans n't make bucks , assume stealing maybe berlin wall came , n't kid karl marx lives 's also stupid n't ask key questions , know much education training takes become physician \? polled said , n't know , disqualified gave wrong answers , dropped good views much doctor earn n't know takes become doctor \? maybe question phrased way much person earn must \( \) get excellent grades fine educational foundation high school order \( b \) accepted good college spend four years taking courses heavy math , physics , chemistry , lab work maintain 3 5 average better , \( c \) spend four years grinding study medical school , third fourth years clinical training , working 80 100 hours week , \( \) spend another year low pay , hard work intern , \( e \) put another three 10 years post graduate training , depending specialty \( f \) maybe wind 100 , 000 debt medical school \( g \) work average 60 hours week , many family doctors putting 70 hours retire fall \? probably guessed , considerably respect doctors law firm clinton clinton , lawyers insurance executives called together america 's health care based doctors contribute society , far useful power happy , ego tripping , program spewing , social probably give us medical plan health clinton 's first budget propaganda works , stupid poll indicates , many americans wrongly believe doctors major cause high medical costs course doctors well compensated americans live longer ever responsible longevity lawyers , congress , guy flipping mcdonald 's \? doctors prolong lives despite become nation self , lard , tv couch ah , something heard president clinton super spouse talk campaign since instead trying turn medical profession , might honest said let us talk medical care one biggest problems problem , fellow american yes , , eating much eating wrong foods many much hooch still away 2 50 pack getting daily exercise fridge microwave couch dope bringing crack babies world filling big city emergency rooms gunshot victims engaging unsafe sex catching deadly disease blaming world finding instant cure habits , doctors , single biggest health problem country anything , amazing docs keep alive long fact , n't understand stand looking day president , call upon stop whining start living cleanly must go get triple cheesy greasy double fries say , truly believe doctors overpaid , another solution n't use 's right n't feel well \? try one spine , needle , rev bubba lay hands upon head declare fit approach chest pains \? sit front mirror , make , , pop couple valves 're going kid \? throw money overpaid buy better car bigger house ever \( paying taxes malpractice insurance ever earn \) \? kid old fashioned way squat survives , go library find book give shots way , anyone ever done poll much pollsters earn \? royko prize winning columnist tribune media services vinay j rao nyx cs du edu
coos dartmouth edu \( prakash das \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? article dartvax organization dartmouth college , hanover , nh lines 19 article 1993apr20 jpl nasa gov julie eddie jpl nasa gov \( julie kangas \) writes foods taste i'm allergic msg like taste , n't use \? saying n't use like saying n't eat spicy food neighbor ulcer julie , n't necessarily follow use \( msg something else matter \) simply allergic example might allergic \( animal \) , like taste , yet n't follow using \( regularly \) msg might bad \( good , knowledge msg \) effects body long run , maybe 's reason enough use example ulcer funny , n't appropriate comparison prakash das
ttrusk mcw edu \( thomas trusk \) subject krillean photography organization medical college wisconsin lines 22 reply ttrusk mcw edu nntp posting host pixel mcw edu article vxcrna cern ch filipe vxcrna cern ch \( vinci \) writes kirlian imaging \? believe faq sci skeptics \( sp \? \) nice write would certainly supportive helping build device connect supply take serious look aura \) filipe santos cern european laboratory particle physics switzerland please sign relevant documents forward remaining parts study 120 kv human tissue wrapped thanks support dr thomas trusk dept cellular biology anatomy email ttrusk mcw edu medical college wisconsin milwaukee , wi disclaimer \( ala foghorn leghorn \) \( 414 \) 257 's joke , son joke say !
backon vms huji ac il subject net address distribution world organization hebrew university jerusalem lines 32 article 1993apr24 mintaka lcs mit edu , elg silver lcs mit edu \( elizabeth glaser \) writes looking email address world health organization , particular address department nursing chief scientist nursing dr miriam snail mail address following world health organization 20 avenue 1211 geneva 27 switzerland domain address ch try sending email postmaster ch josh backon vms huji ac il please respond directly thank assistance elg elizabeth glaser , rn elg silver lcs mit edu
westes netcom com \( estes \) subject use haldol elderly organization mail group x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 14 anyone know research done use haldol elderly \? short term use drug ever produce long term side effects use drug \? grandmother recently hospitalized given large doses haldol several weeks although drug terminated , changed perky , slightly senile woman virtual vegetable talk anyone cannot even eat brush teeth without assistance seems incredible changes could take place course one one half months believe combination hospital stay drug \( \) part catalysts comments \? estes internet westes netcom com
subject hypodermic needle eis calstate edu \( becky olsen \) organization calif state univ electronic information services lines 7 hi , term paper syringe found information said charles invented hypodermic needle , also found alexander wood invented anyone know one , anyone else \? anymore information could please send thank much becky olsen
haynes cats ucsc edu \( jim haynes \) subject poisoning heavy water \( many mris \? \) organization university california santa cruz lines 12 nntp posting host hobbes ucsc edu remember article scientific american maybe 20 years ago someone else noted rats mice fed nothing heavy water eventually died , explanation given haynes cats ucsc edu haynes cats bitnet ya talk ya wanna , 's dif ! aint ! ya gotta know territory ! meredith willson music man
donald mackie donald mackie med umich edu subject hypodermic needle organization um anesthesiology lines 34 distribution world nntp posting host 141 214 86 38 x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d9 x xxmessage id 38 86 214 141 addr arpa x xxdate sun , 25 apr 93 15 47 15 gmt article eis calstate edu becky olsen , eis calstate edu writes hi , term paper syringe found information said charles invented hypodermic needle , also found alexander wood invented anyone know one , anyone else \? anymore information could please send thank much becky olsen looking evolution h armstrong davison \( pub williams wilkins , baltimore 1965 \) found following chronology 1853 charles gabriel \( 1853 \) , inventor , describes glass syringe syringe intended used special injecting chloride , thus heal 1853 alexander wood \( 1817 84 \) edinburgh invents hypodermic needle 's syringe use might also interested read experiments sir christopher , described philosophical transactions royal society using pig 's bladder injected , wine beer dogs mackie um anesthesiology disavow
carl sol1 gps caltech edu \( carl j lydick \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? organization hst wide field planetary camera lines 29 distribution world reply carl sol1 gps caltech edu nntp posting host sol1 gps caltech edu article crhc uiuc edu , mary uicsl csl uiuc edu \( mary e allison \) writes started checking every time got sick every time got sick msg somehow involved one food products points studies made amateurs also check every time get sick \? , say \? check every thing eat n't get sick find much msg 're actually consuming \? 's needed final step , double blind study done humans n't even ethical question possible harm , widely used approved food additive say 2 population problem msg say 's like 20 let 's say 's 5 many people would tested would problem \? also know problem , would n't volunteer test knew enough test decide n't want participate involved msg , 'd 've already made \( since msg detectable taste \) anybody clueless double blind studies \? carl j lydick internet carl sol1 gps caltech edu nsi hepnet sol1 carl disclaimer hey , understand vaxen vms 's get paid understanding astronomy purely amateur level \( \) unless i'm saying directly related vax vms , n't hold organization responsible related vax vms , try hold responsible , organization nothing
organization arizona state university asuacad bitnet subject opinions allergy \( hay fever \) shots \? lines 22 article 1993apr22 midway uchicago edu , jacquier uchicago edu \( eric jacquier \) says looks like 2 shots per week 6 months followed 1 shot per month shot costs 20 talking soaring costs health care system , would call racket talking rare , garbage grows behind doctor 's office apart issue , somewhat disappointed find keep getting shots forever right \? might look allergy doctor area uses drops instead shots treatment \( given small bottle antigens 3 drops placed tongue 5 minutes \) allergy grass way throughout treatment process return doctor 's office every month testing new bottle antigens allergy completely bottle maintenance antigens lasts 4 months \( drops taken 3 times per week \) , costs 20 cost less shots convenient take drops home bruce long
nyx cs du edu \( h anthony chung \) subject localized fat reduction due exercise \( question \) organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept lines 9 wondering exercises specific particular regions body \( thighs \) basically tone thighs , fat parts body \( breasts \) would affected much h anthony chung c amigas case western reserve university r school dentistry future hac po cwru edu \( cabal irc \) ac
picl25 fsphy1 physics fsu edu \( picl account 25 \) subject use haldol elderly organization florida state university acns reply picl25 fsphy1 physics fsu edu lines 37 i'm nursing student , would like respond haldol elderly message id fsphy1 physics fsu edu organization florida state university school higher thought news software vax vms vnews 1 4 b1 first , i'm sorry hear see grandmother go know tough many things cause long term confusion elderly adults change environment cause problems anesthetic agents cause confusion body cannot clear medicines body easily addition , medications interactions medications cause confusion far whether haldol long lasting effects even drug discontinued , know seen anything effect however , also looking information see find tell haldol drug , , according drug handbook , especially useful associated senile dementia \( p 400 \) also discontinued abruptly say anything long lasting effects many things cause confusion , hard know else going time history , might able answer better want send e mail information , would happy try help piece together might happened elisa picl25 fsphy1 physics fsu edu
doyle pitt edu \( howard r doyle \) subject roc curves software organization pittsburgh transplant institute lines 10 understand robert program called roc analyzer , used receiver operating characteristic \( roc \) curve analysis anyone know avaliable ftp site \? , anyone know get copy \? howard doyle doyle pitt edu
donald mackie donald mackie med umich edu subject use haldol elderly organization um anesthesiology lines 40 distribution world nntp posting host 141 214 86 38 x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d9 x xxmessage id 38 86 214 141 addr arpa x xxdate sun , 25 apr 93 01 51 52 gmt article mailer cc fsu edu picl account 25 , picl25 fsphy1 physics fsu edu writes adults change environment cause problems anesthetic agents cause confusion body cannot clear medicines body easily original poster say mother hospital answer general points elderly patients may exhibit marked difficulty coping hospital days drastic change environment often marginally coping home even young people find change unsettling though thought function say surgery hip \( common event elderly \) due good evidence change situation much important hospitals tried system hip , aiming patient back home within 24 hours admission selection effect ability discharge patients early work elderly \( almost us \) generally take care tailor choice dose drugs used individual patient even , evidence full mental recovery may take surprisingly long time return sort thing detected setting quite difficult tasks , gross change original poster noted \( haldol tm \) long acting drug plasma half life drug 35 hours \( sort slow release formulation \) used may weeks elderly sensitive number reasons without knowing hard comment mackie opinions disavow
lawrence curcio lc2b andrew cmu edu subject use haldol elderly organization doctoral student , public policy management , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 34 nntp posting host po2 andrew cmu edu reply netcom com 've seen people forties fifties become disoriented demented hospital stays examples 've seen , drugs definitely involved father turned vegetable short time hospital fifty three time , 21 separate medications family protested , doctors adamant , telling us none drugs interact even took attitude , disoriented , put something else well ! help md friend family , medication discontinued seizure night , put back one drug two days later , old self guess n't many medical texts address subject 21 way interactions n't mean cheap shot medical profession aspect hospitals frightening docs seem believe , close control , 's quite right take bodily hands control reduces chance patient make mistake , health care providers make mistakes , mistakes deadly circumstances grant sometimes 's choice nevertheless , suggest procure list drugs grandmother getting , discuss independent doc problems may effect haldol haldol may used validly , may prescribed medication confused , hospital normally haldol confused elderly opinion , larry \( obviously doc \) c
csc calpoly edu \( \) subject request gyro \( souvlaki \) sauce article rat 1993apr26 organization humanity lines 13 nntp posting host csc calpoly edu got recipe greek island use spread bread excellent gyro 's well way , actual name recipe yoghurt , chopped garlic , chopped cucumber , salt , white pepper , little olive oil little vinegar would love hear good greek recipes jon walker oboe calpoly edu
utkvx utk edu \( baker , david \) subject hypodermic syringe news software vax vms vnews 1 41 organization university tennessee computing center lines 13 n't answer , reckon blaise pascal generally credited inventing syringe per se n't know much needles however , know southwest virginia country doctor years ago invented , patented , used , sold syringe hypodermic needle combination retracted , injected flip trigger , retracted , giving near painless injection fellow dr daniel gabriel , termed gabriel somebody else syringe come across one \( plastic , disposable came onto market time product went , knowledge \)
picl25 fsphy1 physics fsu edu \( picl account 25 \) subject use haldol elderly organization florida state university school higher thought news software vax vms vnews 1 4 b1 reply picl25 fsphy1 physics fsu edu lines 41 article andrew cmu edu , lawrence curcio lc2b andrew cmu edu writes 've seen people forties fifties become disoriented demented hospital stays examples 've seen , drugs definitely involved father turned vegetable short time hospital fifty three time , 21 separate drugs wonder became confused ! many drugs , almost impossible know one causing problem drugs potentiate effect , make side effects worse , even dangerous \( kinda like mixing alcohol antihistamines ! \) doctors put something else well ! unfortunately , doctors prescribe drugs treat side effects drugs patient receiving one drug taking causes patient 's blood pressure go , many times prescribed instead evaluating need original drug many older adults trying take dozen drugs home ! ! ! ! procure list drugs grandmother getting , discuss independent doc problems may effect haldol haldol may used validly , may prescribed medication confused , hospital normally haldol confused elderly fully agree addition , examined another doctor evaluate need medications taking ca n't remember guidelines either saw text heard lecture , elderly adult receiving medications need drug evaluated regularly current physician unwilling , find one either check phone book physician specializes medicine , contact physician referral line american medical society finding specialist , \( \) likely tune special needs elderly adults maybe help
daniel prince f129 n102 z1 calcom socal com \( daniel prince \) subject fibromyalgia , cfs sleep levels lines 16 know relationship fibromyalgia deep sleep believe five levels sleep think r e sleep third deepest level sleep two deeper levels sleep error , please let know level sleep thought deficient people fibromyalgia \? known sleep disturbances associated cfs \? sleep disturbances \( \) associated clinical depression \? antidepressants correct sleep disturbances diseases \? good books medical journal articles sleep disturbances diseases \? thank advance replies inconvenient answer phone , rings origin one world los angeles 310 372 \( 1 102 129 0 \)
stephen mont cs missouri edu \( stephen montgomery smith \) subject pregnency without sex \? keywords pregnency sex organization university missouri lines 10 school boy , biology teacher told us incident couple passionate without actually sexual intercourse somehow girl became pregnent sperm cells made way clothes via persperation biology teacher misinforming us , incidents actually occur \? stephen
david stat com \( david dodell \) subject medical news part 1 4 reply david stat com \( david dodell \) distribution world organization stat gateway service , wb7tpy lines 707 cut volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 ! ! ! health info com network ! ! medical newsletter ! editor david dodell , north street , suite 210 , scottsdale , arizona usa telephone 1 \( 602 \) 860 1121 fax 1 \( 602 \) 451 1165 compilation copyright 1993 david dodell , rights reserved license hereby granted electronic media fees charged , long text copyright notice license attached intact portion portions health info com network newsletter distributed articles medical nature welcomed article , please contact editor information submit interested joining automated distribution system , please contact editor e mail address editor internet david stat com fidonet 1 114 15 bitnet atw1h asuacad listserv mednews asuacad bitnet \( internet mednews asuvm inre asu edu \) anonymous ftp vm1 nodak edu notification list notify request stat com fax delivery contact editor information b l e f c n e n 1 centers disease control prevention mmwr 23 april 1993 rates cesarean delivery 1 malaria among u embassy personnel 5 fda approval hib vaccine children infants 8 2 dental news workshop explores oral manifestations hiv infection 11 3 food drug administration news fda approves depo provera , injectable contraceptive 14 new rules speed approval drugs life threatening illnesses 16 4 articles research promises preventing slowing blindness retinal disease 18 affluent diet increases risk heart disease 20 5 general publications health professionals national cancer institute 23 publications patients available national cancer institute 30 6 aids news summaries aids daily summary april 19 april 23 , 1993 38 7 aids statistics worldwide aids statistics 48 hicnet medical newsletter page volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 centers disease control prevention mmwr rates cesarean delivery united states , 1991 source mmwr 42 \( 15 \) date apr 23 , 1993 cesarean deliveries accounted nearly 1 million approximately 4 million annual deliveries united states since 1986 \( table 1 \) cesarean rate united states third highest among 21 reporting countries , exceeded brazil puerto rico \( 1 \) report presents data cesarean deliveries cdc 's national hospital discharge survey \( nhds \) 1991 compares data previous years data discharges short stay , hospitals collected annually since 1965 nhds , conducted cdc 's national center health statistics 1991 , medical demographic information sample 274 , 000 discharged 484 participating hospitals 1991 cesareans vaginal births prior cesarean \( vbac \) presented report based weighted national estimates nhds sample approximately 31 , 000 \( 11 \) women discharged delivery estimated numbers live births type delivery calculated applying cesarean rates nhds live births national vital registration data therefore , estimates number cesareans report agree previously published data based solely nhds \( 2 \) stated differences analysis significant 95 confidence level , based two test critical value 1 96 1991 , 23 5 cesareans per 100 deliveries , rate 1990 similar rates 1986 1989 \( table 1 \) primary cesarean rate \( e , number first cesareans per 100 deliveries women previous cesareans \) 1986 1991 also stable , ranging 16 8 17 5 1991 , cesarean rate south 27 6 , significantly \( p 0 05 \) higher rates west \( 19 8 \) , midwest \( 21 8 \) , northeast \( 22 6 \) rates higher mothers aged greater equal 30 years younger women proprietary hospitals nonprofit government hospitals hospitals fewer 300 beds larger hospitals deliveries blue cross blue shield private insurance expected source payment sources payment \( table 2 \) pattern characterized primary cesarean deliveries since early 1970s , number percentage births older women increased however , age distribution mothers 1991 remained 1986 , overall cesarean rate 1991 would 23 3 , essentially 23 5 observed based nhds , approximately 4 , 111 , 000 live births 1991 , hicnet medical newsletter page 1 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 estimated 966 , 000 \( 23 5 \) cesarean delivery , estimated 338 , 000 \( 35 0 \) births repeat cesareans , 628 , 000 \( 65 0 \) primary cesareans since 1986 , approximately 600 , 000 primary cesareans performed annually 1986 , 8 5 women previous cesarean delivered , compared 24 2 1991 cesareans 1991 , 35 0 associated previous cesarean , 30 4 \( e , failure labor progress \) , 11 7 breech presentation , 9 2 fetal distress , 13 7 specified complications average hospital stay deliveries 1991 2 8 days comparison , hospital stay primary cesarean delivery 4 5 days , repeat cesarean , 4 2 days nearly twice duration vbac deliveries \( 2 2 days \) vaginal deliveries \( 2 3 days \) 1986 , average hospital stay deliveries 3 2 days , primary cesareans 5 2 days , repeat cesareans 4 7 days , vbac non vbac vaginal deliveries 2 7 2 6 days , respectively reported office vital health statistics systems , national center health statistics , cdc editorial note cesarean rate united states steadily increased 1965 1986 however , findings report indicate rates stable since 1986 \( 3 \) little evidence maternal child health status improved time cesareans associated increased risk complications childbirth , national health objective year 2000 \( 4 \) reduce overall cesarean rate 15 fewer per 100 deliveries primary cesarean rate 12 fewer per 100 deliveries \( objective 14 8 \) complications including urinary tract wound infections may account part longer hospital stays cesarean deliveries vaginal births \( 5 \) moreover , prolonged hospital stays cesarean deliveries substantially increase health care costs example , 1991 , average costs cesarean vaginal deliveries , respectively additional cost cesarean delivery includes 611 physician fees hospital charges \( 6 \) cesarean rate 1991 15 \( year 2000 objective \) instead 23 5 , number cesarean births would decreased 349 , 000 \( 617 , 000 versus 966 , 000 \) , resulting savings 1 billion physician fees hospital charges despite steady increase vbac rates since 1986 , several factors may impede progress toward year 2000 national health objectives cesarean delivery example , vbac rates substantially reflect number women offered trial labor , increasingly encouraged since 1982 \( 7 \) women offered trial labor , 50 70 could deliver \( 7 \) level already achieved many hospitals \( 8 \) trial labor routinely offered 46 hospitals surveyed 1984 \( recent year hicnet medical newsletter page 2 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 national data available \) \( 9 \) vbac rate \( according nhds data \) 5 7 year 2000 objective specifies vbac rate 35 , based women prior cesarean , regardless whether trial labor attempted reach overall cesarean rate goal , however , increases vbac rate need combined substantial reduction primary rate one hospital succeeded reducing rate cesarean delivery applying objective criteria four common indications cesarean delivery , requiring second opinion , peer review process \( 10 \) recommendations decreasing cesarean delivery rates include eliminating incentives physicians hospitals vaginal cesarean deliveries public dissemination physician hospital specific cesarean delivery rates increase public awareness differences practices addressing malpractice concerns , may important factor maintaining high rates cesarean delivery \( 4 \) references 1 fc international differences use interventions jama 1990 263 91 2 graves ej , 1991 summary national hospital discharge survey , maryland us department health human services , public health service , cdc , 1993 \( advance data 227 \) 3 sm , pj , cl u cesarean section rates , 1990 update birth 1992 19 21 2 4 public health service healthy people 2000 national health promotion disease prevention objectives full report , commentary washington , dc us department health human services , public health service , 1991 dhhs publication \( \) 91 5 danforth dn cesarean section jama 1985 253 811 8 6 hospital insurance association america table 4 15 cost maternity care , physicians' fees , hospital charges , census region , based consumer price index \( 1991 \) 1992 source book health insurance data washington , dc hospital insurance association america , 1992 7 committee committee opinion 64 guidelines vaginal delivery previous cesarean birth washington , dc american college , 1988 hicnet medical newsletter page 3 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 8 rosen mg , dickinson jc vaginal birth cesarean meta analysis indicators success obstet gynecol 1990 76 865 9 9 ph , fielden jg , , gg , wh recent trends cesarean birth trial labor rates united states jama 1987 257 494 7 10 myers sa , n successful program lower cesarean section rates n engl j med 1988 319 6 use trade names commercial sources identification imply endorsement public health service u department health human services hicnet medical newsletter page 4 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 malaria among u embassy personnel kampala , uganda , 1992 source mmwr 42 \( 15 \) date apr 23 , 1993 treatment prevention malaria africa become challenging complex problem increasing drug resistance although risk acquiring malaria u citizens stationed overseas generally low , risk varies substantially may 1992 , office medical services , department state \( oms dos \) , cdc notified increased number malaria cases among official u personnel stationed kampala , uganda review health records embassy health unit \( ehu \) kampala indicated 27 cases malaria diagnosed official personnel march june 1992 compared two cases period 1991 ehu , oms dos , cdc conducted investigation confirm reported malaria cases identify potential risk factors malaria among u embassy personnel report summarizes results investigation malaria blood smears 25 27 reported case patients available review oms dos cdc case malaria confirmed slide positive sp 25 persons , 17 slide confirmed malaria questionnaire distributed persons served ehu obtain information residence , activities , use malaria chemoprophylaxis , use personal protection measures \( e , using insect , window door screens , wearing long sleeves pants evening \) 157 persons eligible survey , 128 \( 82 \) responded risk malaria associated sex location residence kampala although risk malaria higher among children aged less equal 15 years \( 6 32 19 \) among persons greater 15 years \( 11 94 12 \) , difference significant \( relative risk rr 1 6 95 confidence interval ci 0 6 4 0 \) eighty two percent cases occurred among persons living kampala 1 5 years , compared living less 1 year travel outside kampala area rural settings associated increased risk malaria four malaria chemoprophylaxis regimens used persons participated survey mefloquine , chloroquine , chloroquine alone , alone addition , 23 \( 18 \) persons responded using malaria chemoprophylaxis risk malaria significantly lower among persons using either mefloquine chloroquine \( 8 88 9 \) among persons using regimens prophylaxis \( 9 37 24 \) \( rr 0 4 95 ci 0 2 0 9 \) twelve persons using prophylaxis reported side effects fear possible side effects reason risk malaria lower among persons reported using hicnet medical newsletter page 5 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 time \( 2 27 7 \) among persons sometimes rarely used \( 15 99 15 \) \( rr 0 5 95 ci 0 1 2 0 \) risk malaria also lower among persons consistently used insect repellent evening \( 0 16 \) , compared rarely used repellent \( 17 110 15 \) \( rr 0 upper 95 confidence limit 1 2 \) risk malaria associated failure window door screens wear long sleeves pants evening result investigation , ehu staff reviewed personnel need use comply recommended malaria chemoprophylaxis regimens ehu staff also emphasized need use personal protection measures made plans obtain impregnated provide window door screens personnel reported u embassy health unit , kampala , uganda office medical svcs , dept state , washington , c malaria br , div parasitic diseases , national center infectious diseases , cdc editorial note uganda , increase malaria among u personnel attributed poor adherence recommended malaria chemoprophylaxis regimens use personal protection measures period increased malaria transmission intensified chloroquine resistance sub africa findings report underscore need provide initial continued counseling regarding malaria prevention persons living abroad malaria endemic areas preventive measures also important short term travelers areas mefloquine effective prophylaxis regimen africa areas chloroquine resistant p falciparum however , areas \( e g , thailand \) , resistance mefloquine may limit effectiveness africa , efficacy mefloquine , compared chloroquine alone , preventing infection p falciparum 92 \( 1 \) mefloquine safe well tolerated given 250 mg per week 2 year period risk serious adverse reactions possibly associated mefloquine prophylaxis \( e g , \) low \( e , 1 3 1 9 episodes per 100 , 000 users 2 \) , risk less severe adverse reactions \( e g , dizziness , gastrointestinal complaints , sleep disturbances \) similar \( 1 \) similar efficacy mefloquine , need daily may reduce compliance effectiveness regimen \( 3 , 4 \) chloroquine alone effective prophylaxis areas intense chloroquine resistance \( e g , southeast asia africa \) africa , persons cannot take mefloquine , chloroquine alternative , although less effective , regimen chloroquine used malaria prevention areas chloroquine resistant p falciparum reported country specific recommendations preventing malaria information hicnet medical newsletter page 6 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 dosage precautions malaria chemoprophylaxis regimens available health information international travel , 1992 \( e , yellow book \) \( 5 \) 24 hours day telephone fax , \( 404 \) 332 references 1 ho , , eng , et al long term malaria prophylaxis weekly mefloquine peace corps volunteers effective well tolerated regimen lancet 1993 341 848 51 2 world health organization review central nervous system adverse events related drug , mefloquine \( 1985 1990 \) geneva world health organization , 1991 publication mal 91 1063 3 pang l , n , p treatment falciparum malaria low dose j infect dis 1988 158 1124 7 4 pang l , n , boudreau ef , p prophylaxis falciparum malaria lancet 1987 1 1161 4 5 cdc health information international travel , 1992 atlanta us department health human services , public health service , 1992 98 dhhs publication \( cdc \) 92 hicnet medical newsletter page 7 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 fda approval use new haemophilus b conjugate vaccine combined diphtheria tetanus pertussis haemophilus b conjugate vaccine infants children source mmwr 42 \( 15 \) date apr 23 , 1993 haemophilus influenzae type b \( hib \) conjugate vaccines recommended use infants since 1990 , routine use infant vaccination contributed substantial decline incidence hib disease united states \( 1 3 \) vaccines diphtheria , tetanus , pertussis infancy childhood administered routinely united states since late 1940s associated greater 90 reduction morbidity mortality associated infection organisms increasing number vaccines routinely recommended infants , high priority development combined vaccines allow simultaneous administration fewer separate injections food drug administration \( fda \) recently licensed two new products children diseases 1 \) haemophilus b conjugate vaccine \( tetanus conjugate , acthib trademark \) , vaccination hib disease 2 \) combined diphtheria tetanus whole cell pertussis vaccine \( dtp \) hib conjugate vaccine \( tetramune trademark \) , combination vaccines formulated use children diphtheria , tetanus , pertussis , hib disease acthib trademark march 30 , 1993 , fda approved new haemophilus b conjugate vaccine , phosphate tetanus conjugate \( \) , manufactured pasteur serum et distributed acthib trademark laboratories , inc \( , pennsylvania \) vaccine licensed use infants three dose primary vaccination series administered ages 2 , 4 , 6 months previously infants 7 11 months age receive two doses 2 months apart previously children 12 14 months age receive one dose booster dose administered 15 months age recommended children previously children 15 59 months age receive single dose require booster 90 infants receiving primary vaccination series acthib trademark \( consecutive doses 2 , 4 , 6 months age \) develop geometric mean anti haemophilus b antibody greater 1 ug ml \( 4 \) response similar infants receive recommended series previously licensed haemophilus b conjugate vaccines efficacy demonstrated prospective trials two u efficacy trials terminated early haemophilus b conjugate vaccines hicnet medical newsletter page 8 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 use infants \( 4 \) studies , cases invasive hib disease detected approximately 6000 infants studies suggest efficacy vaccine similar licensed hib vaccines tetramune trademark march 30 , 1993 , fda approved combined diphtheria tetanus whole cell pertussis vaccine \( dtp \) haemophilus b conjugate vaccine tetramune trademark , available praxis \( pearl river , new york \) , combines two previously licensed products , dtp \( registered , manufactured laboratories pearl river , new york \) haemophilus b conjugate vaccine \( registered , manufactured praxis , inc rochester , new york \) vaccine licensed use children aged 2 months 5 years protection diphtheria , tetanus , pertussis , hib disease indications vaccination dtp vaccine haemophilus b conjugate vaccine coincide based demonstration co higher antibody responses components two vaccines , tetramune trademark expected provide protection hib , well diphtheria , tetanus , pertussis , equivalent already licensed dtp haemophilus b vaccines advisory committee immunization practices \( acip \) recommends infants receive primary series one licensed haemophilus b conjugate vaccines beginning 2 months age booster dose age 12 15 months \( 5 \) acip also recommends infants receive four dose primary series diphtheria tetanus pertussis vaccine 2 , 4 , 6 , 15 18 months age , booster dose 4 6 years \( 6 8 \) complete statement regarding recommendations use acthib trademark tetramune trademark developed reported office vaccines research review , center evaluation research , food drug administration div immunization , national center prevention svcs meningitis special pathogens br , div bacterial diseases , national center infectious diseases , cdc references 1 adams wg , ka , sl , et al decline childhood haemophilus influenzae type b \( hib \) disease hib vaccine era jama 1993 269 221 6 2 le , erickson rl , kelley pw decrease invasive haemophilus influenzae disease u army children , 1984 1991 jama 1993 269 227 31 3 murphy tv , white ke , pastor p , et al declining incidence haemophilus influenzae type b disease since introduction vaccination jama hicnet medical newsletter page 9 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 1993 269 246 8 4 b , efficacy safety haemophilus influenzae type b tetanus protein conjugate vaccine j 1992 121 355 62 5 acip haemophilus b conjugate vaccines prevention haemophilus influenzae type b disease among infants children two months age older recommendations immunization practices advisory committee \( acip \) mmwr 1991 40 \( rr 1 \) 6 acip diphtheria , tetanus , pertussis recommendations vaccine use preventive measures recommendations immunization practices advisory committee \( acip \) mmwr 1991 40 \( rr 10 \) 7 acip pertussis vaccination pertussis vaccine booster use supplementary acip statement recommendations immunization practices advisory committee \( acip \) mmwr 1992 41 \( rr 1 \) 8 acip pertussis vaccination pertussis vaccine fourth fifth doses dtp series update supplementary acip statement recommendations immunization practices advisory committee \( acip \) mmwr 1992 41 \( rr 15 \) use trade names commercial sources identification imply endorsement public health service u department health human services hicnet medical newsletter page 10 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 dental news international workshop explores oral manifestations hiv infection nidr research digest written jody dove march 1993 national institute dental research second international workshop oral manifestations hiv infection , held january 31 february 3 san francisco , participants explored issues related epidemiology , basic molecular , mucosal , oral clinical presentations hiv infection workshop organized dr john dr deborah department , school dentistry , university california , san francisco international steering committee scientific program committee provided guidance conference drew 260 scientists 39 countries , including asia , africa , europe , central america , south america , well united states canada support tor workshop provided national institute dental research , national cancer institute , national institute allergy infectious diseases , nih office aids research , gamble company among topics discussed epidemiology hiv lesions ethics , professional responsibility , public policy occupational issues provision oral care hiv positive population salivary hiv transmission mucosal immunity infections pediatric hiv infection women 's issues recommendations recommendations emerged workshop define association appearance oral lesions rate progression hiv , establish universal terminology hiv associated oral lesions , look effective treatments oral manifestations , expand molecular biology studies understand relationship hiv infection common oral lesions , study effects hiv therapy oral lesions epidemiology since first international workshop oral manifestations hiv infection five years ago , epidemiology hiv infection hicnet medical newsletter page 11 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 radically changed 1988 , hiv infection detected reported largely homosexual bisexual males , intravenous drug users , today , hiv infection seen heterosexual males females children adolescents predominant impact hiv infection felt africa , major increase infection rate seen southeast asia well five hundred thousand cases reported date region appearing time researchers continuing document epidemiology oral lesions hairy candidiasis also beginning explore relationships specific oral lesions hiv disease progression prognosis social political issues discussion social political implications hiv infection focused changing public 's attitude aids retribution indiscriminate sexual behavior drug use speakers also addressed health care delivery hiv infected patients , need educate public aids , acquired saliva salivary glands conference speakers described transmission issues hiv inhibitory activity saliva , strength varies among different salivary secretions whole saliva greater inhibitory effect secretions , turn greater inhibitory effect secretions research shown least two mechanisms responsible salivary inhibitory activity attributed hiv inhibitory effect saliva 1 \) hiv saliva , may promote clearance virus prevent reaching target cell , 2 \) direct effects virus target cells topics discussed manifestation salivary gland disease hiv infected persons current research oral mucosal immunity pediatric issues pediatric aids recently emerged area intense interest early accurate diagnosis proper treatment , life expectancy hiv infected children prevention transmission hiv mother child may possible many cases , particularly mother 's status known prior giving birth tissue disease hicnet medical newsletter page 12 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 oral health researchers continue explore diseases found individuals hiv infection recommendations made workshop include standardization terminology , refinement diagnostic markers , standardization study design , proper consideration confounding variables resulting therapy occupational treatment issues occupational issues surrounding treatment hiv infected individuals treatment rendered hiv infected health care professionals still command considerable attention factors consideration include cost benefit hiv testing , patient health care provider transmission hiv infection reverse , use mainstream versus dedicated facilities treatment hiv infected patients conference participants anticipate third international workshop oral manifestations hiv infection held five years less proceedings second workshop published company late 1993 end part 1 internet david stat com fax 1 \( 602 \) 451 1165 bitnet atw1h asuacad fidonet 1 114 15 amateur packet ax25 wb7tpy wb7tpy az usa na
david stat com \( david dodell \) subject medical news part 2 4 reply david stat com \( david dodell \) distribution world organization stat gateway service , wb7tpy lines 707 cut hicnet medical newsletter page 13 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 food drug administration news fda approves depo provera , injectable contraceptive 31 food drug administration immediate release susan \( 301 \) 443 food drug administration today announced approval depo provera , injectable contraceptive drug drug , contains synthetic hormone similar natural hormone progesterone , protects women pregnancy three months per injection hormone injected muscle arm released prevent pregnancy 99 percent effective drug presents another long term , effective option women prevent pregnancy , said fda commissioner david kessler , injectable , given every three months , depo provera eliminates problems related missing daily dose depo provera available 150 mg single dose doctors clinics must given regular basis maintain contraceptive protection patient decides become pregnant , injections products , fda advises patients discuss benefits risks depo provera doctor health care professional making decision use depo provera 's effectiveness contraceptive established extensive studies manufacturer , world health organization health agencies countries u clinical trials , begun 1963 , also found depo provera effective injectable contraceptive common side effects menstrual irregularities weight gain addition , patients may experience headache , , abdominal pain , dizziness , weakness fatigue drug used women acute liver disease , unexplained vaginal bleeding , breast cancer blood clots legs , lungs eyes labeling advises doctors rule pregnancy prescribing drug , due concerns low birth weight babies exposed drug hicnet medical newsletter page 14 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 recent data also demonstrated long term use may contribute manufacturer conduct additional research study potential effect depo provera developed 1960s approved contraception many countries company kalamazoo , mich , market drug name , depo provera contraceptive injection , first submitted approval united states 1970s time , animal studies raised questions potential cause breast cancer worldwide studies since found overall risk cancer , including breast cancer humans , minimal hicnet medical newsletter page 15 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 new rules speed approval drugs life threatening illnesses 37 food drug administration monica \( 301 \) 443 food drug administration today announced soon publish new rules shed approval drugs patients serious life threatening illnesses , aids , cancer alzheimer 's disease final rules help patients suffering serious illnesses get access new drugs months even years earlier would otherwise possible , said hhs secretary louis w sullivan , effort accelerate fda review drugs long term commitment indeed hallmark administration rules establish procedures food drug administration approve drug based surrogate endpoints markers apply drug provides meaningful benefit currently available therapies endpoints would include laboratory tests physical signs constitute clinical effect judged qualified scientists likely correspond real benefits patient use surrogate endpoints measurement drug efficacy permits approval earlier traditional endpoints relief disease symptoms prevention death disease used new rules provide therapies approved soon safety effectiveness , based surrogate endpoints , reasonably established drug 's sponsor required agree continue conduct human studies confirm drug 's effect surrogate indicator clinical effectiveness one new drug \( also called \) approved june 19 , using model process , treating human immunodeficiency virus , hiv , cause aids accelerated approval also used , necessary , fda determines drug , judged effective treatment disease , used safely restricted distribution plan new rules help streamline drug development review process without sacrificing science rigorous fda oversight , said fda commissioner david kessler , drug approval accomplished faster , drugs biological products must still meet safety effectiveness standards required law hicnet medical newsletter page 16 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 new procedures also allow streamlined withdrawal process studies verify drug 's clinical benefit , new evidence drug product shown safe effective , specified circumstances arise necessitate withdrawal drug hicnet medical newsletter page 17 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 articles research shows promise preventing slowing blindness due retinal disease national foundation factors rescue cells animal tests baltimore , md researchers university california san francisco regeneron pharmaceuticals , inc discovered certain naturally occurring substances known factors prevent degeneration light sensing cells retina eye degeneration cells , known , major cause visual research , published december issue proceedings national academy science \( \) , holds promise people may lose sight due progressive retinal degeneration currently , drug treatment retinal degeneration exists estimated 2 5 million americans severe vision loss due age related degeneration 100 , 000 americans affected , hereditary disease causes blindness addition , year 15 , 000 people undergo surgical procedures repair retinal retinal research funded part rp \( \) foundation fighting blindness , regeneron pharmaceuticals national eye institute conducted drs matthew , , douglas , michael roy h steinberg ucsf , dr c , regeneron 's vice president discovery regeneron holds exclusive license research ucsf research described , light damage model used assess survival promoting activity number naturally occurring substances experimental rats exposed constant light one week eyes treated effective factor lost cells rods cones retina light exposure brain derived factor \( \) factor \( \) particularly effective model without causing unwanted side effects factors nerve growth factor \( \) insulin like growth factor \( 1 \) effective experiments discussing research , dr jesse , regeneron 's director clinical research , said , 's ability rescue neurons retina damaged light exposure may hold promise treatment age related degeneration , one leading causes vision , retinal detachment following detachment , permanent vision loss may hicnet medical newsletter page 18 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 result death detached retinal cells possible could play role cells retina surgically slowly progressing disease causes retina degenerate period years even decades vision decreases small tunnel sight result total blindness hope research growth factors provide means slow progression preserve useful vision throughout life , stated felix , ph , director science rp foundation fighting blindness addition work described , regeneron developing conjunction inc possible treatment peripheral associated diabetes cancer chemotherapy , motor neuron diseases , parkinson 's disease , alzheimer 's disease , regeneron testing patients lateral sclerosis \( commonly known lou gehrig 's disease \) regeneron , inc , based , new york , leader discovery development biotechnology based compounds treatment diseases , peripheral nerve injuries , affect seven million americans drs steinberg ucsf consultants regeneron hicnet medical newsletter page 19 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 affluent diet increases risk heart disease research resources reporter written mary nov dec 1992 national institutes health high fat , high diets rapidly increase risk factors coronary heart disease native populations developing countries traditionally consumed diets low fat findings , according investigators oregon health sciences university portland , serious implications public health industrialized developing countries study demonstrates develop coronary heart disease higher blood cholesterol levels shows also importance diet particularly potential diet increase body weight , thereby leading whole host health problems developing countries affluent nations well , explains principal investigator dr william e connor , head section clinical nutrition lipid metabolism oregon health sciences university past 25 years dr connor team characterized food nutrient indians mexico , simultaneously documenting various aspects tarahumara lipid metabolism native mexicans number approximately 50 , 000 reside sierra occidental mountains state chihuahua coupled diet endurance racing probably result , coronary heart disease , prevalent western industrialized nations , virtually non existent culture loosely translated , name tarahumara means fleet foot , reflecting tribal passion betting races , participants run distances 100 miles kicking carved wooden ball typical tarahumara diet consists primarily beans , , , drink made ground roasted corn mixed cold water , together squash fruits vegetables also eat small amounts game , fish , eggs food contains approximately 12 percent total calories fat majority \( 69 percent \) vegetable origin dietician martha , study , describes diet simple rich nutrients low cholesterol fat average plasma cholesterol levels 121 mg dl , low density \( ldl \) cholesterol levels 72 mg dl , high density \( hdl \) cholesterol levels 32 42 mg dl values good , low risk range , according researchers elevated cholesterol ldl cholesterol levels considered risk factors heart hicnet medical newsletter page 20 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 disease hdl cholesterol considered beneficial previous studies found low risk cardiac disease , although able respond high cholesterol diets elevations total ldl cholesterol clinical research center maria teresa established metabolic unit mission school building near community hospital small village food weighed , cooked , fed study participants direct supervision , ensuring subjects ate food stipulated research protocol fasting blood drawn twice weekly , plasma samples frozen shipped dr connors laboratory cholesterol , , analyses regular measurements included participant body weight , height , skin fold thickness thirteen , five women eight men , including one adolescent , fed native diet 1 week , followed 5 weeks affluent diet study went concentration dietary fat 40 percent total calories prototype holiday diet many americans consume diet high fat , sugar , cholesterol , low fiber , dr conners dietary characteristics reflected cholesterol saturation index , csi , recently devised research conner working dr connor csi single number incorporates amount cholesterol amount saturated fat diet csi indicates diet 's potential elevate cholesterol level , particularly ldl , dr connor explains diet averages low csi 20 dr connor 's affluent diet used study ranks csi 149 experimental design study reflects importance establishing baseline plasma lipid levels , typical native diet , exposing subjects experimental diet standard curve relating dietary food intake plasma cholesterol demonstrates , plateau , consumption large amounts fat changes dietary fat cholesterol range little effect plasma levels must baseline diet almost free variables going put experimental diet framingham study , example , discriminate basis diet individuals got heart disease diet already high fat subjects already eating plateau , dr connor says 5 weeks consuming affluent diet , mean plasma cholesterol levels 31 percent , primarily ldl fraction , rose 39 percent hdl cholesterol increased 31 per cent , ldl hdl ratios changed therefore little plasma levels increased 18 percent , subjects averaged 8 pound gain weight according dr connor , lipid changes occurred surprisingly soon , yielding nearly results 7 days affluent diet 35 days hicnet medical newsletter page 21 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 increase hdl carries broad dietary implications industrialized nations think hdl cholesterol increased increased amount dietary fat fat content used previous tarahumara metabolic study study saw change hdl levels raising dietary cholesterol keeping fat relatively consistent native consumption present study increased fat intake 40 percent total calories reached conclusion tarahumara study hdl reflects amount dietary fat general amount dietary cholesterol hdl must increase help fat , increased quite bit study , dr connor explains low hdl typically important predictor coronary heart disease normally consume large amounts fat cholesterol hdl remains important predictor americans usual high fat intake dr connor recommends diet americans contains less 20 percent total calories fat , less 100 mg cholesterol , csi around 20 , varying accordance needs diet low meat dairy fat , high fiber dr connor also comments recent suggestions americans adopt mediterranean style diet original mediterranean diet , pristine state , consisted low intake fat animal dairy products already eating lot meat dairy products simply continue pattern switching olive oil going help situation world health organization \( \) focusing much attention emergence diseases coronary heart disease nations societies undergoing technological development dr connor says coronary heart disease starts given society 's elite , typically eat different diet average citizen pattern increases , entire population higher incidence coronary heart disease , places health care burden society would like developing countries prevent coronary heart disease , concentrate aspects economic development public health measures improve general well , rather paying unnecessary , expensive medical technology , dr connors says overall implication study humans readily move plasma values high risk range within short time affluent , excessive diet present rate coronary heart disease united states 30 percent less 20 years ago , lot accomplished changing rapidly , concludes hicnet medical newsletter page 22 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 general publications health professionals available nci \( 1 93 \) unless otherwise noted , following materials provided free charge calling nci 's publication ordering service , 1 800 4 cancer federal government publications subject copyright restriction , free photocopy nci material general information drug information sheets spanish english two sided fact sheets \( english spanish \) provide information side effects common drugs used treat cancer , proper usage , precautions patients fact sheets prepared united states convention , inc , distribution national cancer institute single sets may ordered cancer rates risks , 3rd edition \( 85 691 \) book compact guide statistics , risk factors , risks major cancer sites includes charts graphs showing incidence , mortality , survival worldwide united states also contains section costs cancer 136 pages diet , nutrition cancer prevention guide food choices \( 87 \) booklet describes known diet , nutrition , cancer prevention provides information foods contain components like fiber , fat , vitamins may affect person 's risk getting certain cancers suggests ways use information select broad variety foods choosing foods less others includes recipes sample menus 39 pages national cancer institute fact book book presents general information national cancer institute including budget data , grants contracts , historical information hicnet medical newsletter page 23 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 national cancer institute grants process \( 91 1222 \) \( revised 3 90 \) booklet describes general nci grant award procedures includes chapters eligibility , preparation grant application , peer review , eligible costs , post award activities 62 pages physician physician perspective clinical trials 15 minute discusses enter patients clinical trials produced collaboration american college surgeons commission cancer students cancer resource educator \( 91 \) \( revised 4 87 \) booklet designed teachers students cancer schools includes explanation cancer , treatment effects , guidelines young person 's entry school dealing terminally ill students bibliographies included educators young people 22 pages understanding immune system \( 92 529 \) booklet describes complex network specialized cells organs make human immune system explains system works fight disease caused invading agents bacteria viruses , sometimes malfunctions , resulting variety diseases allergies , arthritis , cancer developed national institute allergy infectious diseases printed national cancer institute booklet presents college level instruction appropriate nursing students persons receiving college training areas within health professions 36 pages materials help stop tobacco use chew snuff educator package \( 91 \) package contains ten copies chew snuff real bad stuff , brochure designed seventh eighth graders describes health social effects using hicnet medical newsletter page 24 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 smokeless tobacco products fully opened , brochure used poster one copy chew snuff real bad stuff guide make young people aware dangers using smokeless tobacco booklet lesson plan teachers contains facts smokeless tobacco , suggested classroom activities , selected educational resources help patients stop smoking national cancer institute manual physicians \( 92 \) step step handbook smoking cessation techniques medical practices manual , resource lists tear materials , based results nci clinical trials 75 pages help patients stop using tobacco national cancer institute manual oral health team \( 91 \) handbook dentists , dental , dental assistants physicians' manual includes additional information smoking prevention smokeless tobacco use 58 pages pharmacists helping smokers quit kit packet materials help pharmacists encourage smoking patients quit contains pharmacist 's guide self help materials 25 patients school programs prevent smoking national cancer institute guide strategies succeed \( 90 500 \) guide outlines eight essential elements successful school based smoking prevention program based nci research includes list available curriculum resources selected references 24 pages self guided strategies smoking cessation program guide \( 91 \) booklet outlines key characteristics successful self help materials programs based nci collaborative research lists additional resources references 36 pages smoking policy questions answers ten fact sheets hicnet medical newsletter page 25 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 provide basic information establishment smoking policies topics range health effects environmental tobacco smoke legal issues concerning policy implementation strategies control tobacco use united states public health action 1990s \( 92 smoking control monograph 1 \) volume provides summary learned 40 years public health effort smoking , early trial error health information campaigns 1960s nci 's science based project , american stop smoking intervention study cancer prevention , began 1991 offers reasons comprehensive smoking control strategies needed address smoker 's total environment reduce smoking prevalence significantly next decade materials outreach programs cancer prevention early detection community outreach programs health professionals three kits available community program planners health professionals set local cancer prevention early detection education projects right thing get new attitude cancer community outreach program community outreach kit targets black american audiences contains materials help health professionals conduct community education programs black audiences kit emphasizes early detection breast cancer mammography cervical cancer pap test also discusses smoking nutrition kit includes helpful program guidance , facts , news articles , visuals , brochures community outreach program community outreach kit targets hispanic audiences contains bilingual spanish language materials help health professionals conduct community education programs materials educate hispanic audiences early detection breast cancer mammography hicnet medical newsletter page 26 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 cervical cancer pap tests kit also discusses smoking related issues kit includes helpful guidance , facts , news articles , visuals brochures year lifetime community outreach mammography program community outreach kit targets women age 40 supplies community program planners health professionals planning guidance , facts mammography , news articles , visuals brochures making health communication programs work guide \( 92 \) handbook presents key principles steps developing evaluating health communications programs public , patients , health professionals expands upon replaces health communications making work 131 pages support material community outreach programs video slide presentations listed support mammography outreach programs year lifetime videotape 5 minute vhs videotape uses dramatic format highlight important facts early detection breast cancer mammography una al ano para una vida videotape 27 minute spanish videotape informs spanish speaking women need medical screening , particularly mammography explains commonly misunderstood facts breast cancer early detection program , dramatic format , features edward james year lifetime kit \( slide show \) kit includes 66 full color slides number coded , ready read script suitable mammography presentation large group addresses misconceptions prevalent mammography urges women age 40 older get regular mammograms breast cancer detected early possible kit hicnet medical newsletter page 27 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 includes guide , poster , media announcement , news feature , flyer , pamphlets mammography kit available directly writing modern , 5000 park street north , st petersburg , fl end part 2 internet david stat com fax 1 \( 602 \) 451 1165 bitnet atw1h asuacad fidonet 1 114 15 amateur packet ax25 wb7tpy wb7tpy az usa na
david stat com \( david dodell \) subject medical news part 4 4 reply david stat com \( david dodell \) distribution world organization stat gateway service , wb7tpy lines 625 cut call employers keep information hiv status health care workers confidential doctors know hiv positive colleague sought advice must inform employing authority appropriate professional regulatory body guidelines also emphasize significance notifying patients invasive procedure done infected health care worker model letter patients come contact individual provided , along suggestions health officials deal media addition , u k advisory panel hiv infection health care workers formed provide specific occupational recommendations treating patients properties hiv nature \( 04 08 93 \) vol 362 , 6420 , p 504 \( volvovitz , franklin smith , \) questions raised moore et al gp160 envelope precursor hiv 1 produced microgenesys advantages rather disadvantages , write franklin volvovitz smith microgenesys , conn moore et al says gp160 expression system bind strongly cd4 receptor , gp160 stimulate antibodies hiv 1 virus natural infection vaccination gp160 patients infected hiv 1 hiv 1 specific envelope directed immune responses , including antibodies gp160 cd4 cell responses volvovitz smith claim never intended gp160 molecule identical native protein antibody responses native hiv 1 proteins , including types described moore et al , exist nearly aids patients prevent hicnet medical newsletter page 42 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 progression hiv disease addition , binding antibody cd4 shown interfere antigen specific activation cd4 cells trigger programmed cell death vitro , may contribute pathogenesis hiv infection absence cd4 binding microgenesys gp160 vaccine may therefore viewed added safety feature phase studies demonstrated stable cd4 counts , stimulation cells , suggestion restoration immune function based clinical results , microgenesys gp160 chosen researchers institute sweden first phase iii vaccine therapy studies , conclude volvovitz smith hiv 1 infection breast milk hiv 1 transmission lancet \( 04 10 93 \) vol 341 , 8850 , p 930 \( mok , jacqueline \) still questions answers regarding hiv 1 positive women breastfeeding babies , writes jacqueline mok lancet anti infective properties milk well documented numbers , concentrations iga , activity decline sharply first two three months barely detectable levels , iga increase three twelve months , 90 percent total iga milk iga breastfeeding protects infants gastrointestinal respiratory illnesses , normal children born hiv positive mothers italian national registry aids discovered breastfed hiv 1 infected children longer median time \( 19 months \) infants \( 9 7 months \) breastfed children also slower progression aids agreement antibodies offer protection hiv 1 infection studies biological properties milk 15 hiv 1 infected women showed presence igg iga antibodies envelope , well iga antibodies core antigens binding hiv 1 cd4 receptor inhibited human milk factor developing world , infectious disease malnutrition contribute significantly infant mortality , breast milk still best food infants , regardless mother 's hiv status transmission might restricted breastfeeding early milk expressed discarded possibility remains breast milk could protect infant already infected hiv birth may even delay progression aids , concludes mok absence hiv transmission infected dentist patients journal american medical association \( 04 14 93 \) vol 269 , 14 , p \( dickinson , gordon et al \) universal precautions practiced , risk hiv transmission dentist patient appears , write gordon dickinson hicnet medical newsletter page 43 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 et al university miami school medicine miami , fla researchers contacted patients treated dentist aids attempts made contact patients hiv testing living patients newly detected hiv infection interviewed , dna sequence analysis performed compare genetic hiv dentist death certificates obtained deceased patients , medical records diagnoses suggestive hiv disease drug abuse dying age 50 years examined detail 1 , 192 patients undergone 9 , 267 procedures , 124 deceased examination death certificates patients identified five died hiv infection , either homosexuals iv drug users researchers able detect 962 remaining 1 , patients , 900 agreed tested hiv infection reported five 900 patients , including four clear evidence risk factors disease one patient single evaluation dentist denied high risk behavior comparative dna sequence analysis showed viruses dentists five patients closely related study suggests potential hiv transmission general dentist patients minimal setting universal precautions strictly observed , conclude dickinson et al april 22 , 1993 aids patients susceptible tb , study says washington post \( 04 22 93 \) , p tuberculosis strike aids patients , makes health hazard harder control , according study published today 's new england journal medicine people contract tb usually develop immunity protects exposed bacteria person whose immune system may able fight new tb infection , doctors found peter small howard hughes medical institute stanford university , director study , said order protect , may necessary people use tb medicines permanently study examined genetic makeup tb bacteria changed time 17 patients kings county hospital new york hiv 1 infection breast milk hiv 1 transmission lancet \( 04 10 93 \) vol 341 , 8850 , p 930 \( mok , jacqueline \) still questions answers regarding hiv 1 positive women breastfeeding babies , writes jacqueline mok lancet anti infective properties milk well documented numbers hicnet medical newsletter page 44 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 , concentrations iga , activity decline sharply first two three months barely detectable levels , iga increase three twelve months , 90 percent total iga milk iga breastfeeding protects infants gastrointestinal respiratory illnesses , normal children born hiv positive mothers italian national registry aids discovered breastfed hiv 1 infected children longer median time \( 19 months \) infants \( 9 7 months \) breastfed children also slower progression aids agreement antibodies offer protection hiv 1 infection studies biological properties milk 15 hiv 1 infected women showed presence igg iga antibodies envelope , well iga antibodies core antigens binding hiv 1 cd4 receptor inhibited human milk factor developing world , infectious disease malnutrition contribute significantly infant mortality , breast milk still best food infants , regardless mother 's hiv status transmission might restricted breastfeeding early milk expressed discarded possibility remains breast milk could protect infant already infected hiv birth may even delay progression aids , concludes mok hiv aids lancet \( 04 10 93 \) vol 341 , 8850 , p 957 \( duesberg , peter \) proof hiv cause aids , hypothesis drug use leads aids hopefully become \( azt \) psychologically \( positive aids test \) toxic public health initiatives , writes peter duesberg university california berkeley lancet 's march 13 issue , et al call duesberg 's hypothesis injected orally used recreational drugs azt lead aids , public health initiatives however , hypothesis hiv cause aids attained public health benefits u government spends 4 billion annually , vaccine , therapy , prevention , aids control resulted work hypothesis et al conclude hiv key role cd4 depletion aids based correlations antibodies hiv self reported recreational drug use among homosexuals vancouver however , survey disprove duesberg 's drug aids hypothesis , provide controls e , confirmed drug free aids cases quantify drug use ignores azt use altogether refute duesberg 's hypothesis would produce controlled study demonstrating period 10 years hiv positive patients use recreational drugs azt aids risks positives 10 year period claimed hicnet medical newsletter page 45 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 proponents hiv hypothesis time needed hiv cause aids alternatively , could show hiv free individuals used drugs 10 years never get aids defining illnesses , concludes duesberg rapid decline cd4 cells treatment hiv 1 infection lancet \( 04 10 93 \) vol 341 , 8850 , p 959 \( , et al \) \( ifn \) , autoimmune diseases settings , may hasten cd4 cell loss hiv 1 infected individuals amplification harmful autoimmune reactions , write et al hospital , italy researchers report three asymptomatic hiv 1 infected individuals hepatitis c virus related chronic active hepatitis \( cah \) rapid , profound decline cd4 cells ifn three patients throughout observation consistently negative serum hiv antigen circulating antibodies sera three patients , obtained end ifn treatment testing enzyme linked , contained high antibodies reacting sequence located beta chain human hla class ii antigens , sequence located terminus hiv 1 , also recognize native class ii molecules may contribute elimination cd4 cells vivo , low tires \( 50 100 \) three patients six months stopping ifn detected 28 patients hiv infection related cah treated ifn experience cd4 cell loss hiv 1 infected individuals amplification harmful autoimmune reactions subjects a1 b8 , hla antigen combinations linked rapid fall cd4 cell counts clinical progression hiv 1 disease ifn induce rapid decline cd4 cells used patients hla , researchers conclude april 23 , 1993 tb makes comeback state government news \( 04 93 \) vol 36 , 4 , p 6 \( , william knapp , elaine \) although tuberculosis believed eliminated united states , emerging among homeless , aids patients , immigrants , minorities , prisoners dr lee b , professor medicine university new jersey medical school president american lung association , said , right , 's big city problem , potentially 's everyone 's problem ala predicts 10 million americans infected tb , 10 percent develop disease immune systems depressed , especially aids hiv gene hicnet medical newsletter page 46 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 , centers disease control expert , said cdc issued guidelines warning hospitals institutions mix aids tb patients state health officials believe tb also spreading susceptible least likely follow treatment addition , increase attributed shortage public health services new york city , tb epidemic number cases increasing faster treat people , said dr george , director new york state tb control according , spread tb entails keeping 85 percent diagnosed tb cases treatment 40 percent infected new york city residents n't complete therapy tb patients n't finish taking medication , multi drug resistant tb develop , requires taking expensive drugs take two years instead normal six months treat increasing frequency transmitted aids southern florida reality \? american journal public health \( 04 93 \) vol 83 , 4 , p 571 \( , c et al \) high rate acquired aids cases southern florida partially related risk , write c et al centers disease control atlanta , ga researchers investigated 168 aids cases broward coastal palm beach counties cases attributed heterosexual transmission reported sexual contact bisexual men , injecting drug users , persons born countries heterosexual contact primary route hiv transmission medical records patients , addition records social services , hiv counseling testing centers , sexually transmitted disease \( std \) clinics reviewed hiv risk factor found medical record review , patients interviewed using standardized questionnaire std clinic medical records reviewed , 29 men 7 women hiv transmission categories adjustments made , percentage aids cases reported palm beach broward counties january 1 , 1989 , march 31 , 1990 , attributed heterosexual transmission decreased 10 percent 6 percent among men 33 percent 28 percent among women percentage transmitted aids cases southern florida decreased adjustment made cases , still remained national average , researchers conclude hicnet medical newsletter page 47 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 aids statistics world health organization , geneva organisation de la , weekly record 15 january 1993 year acquired immunodeficiency syndrome \( aids \) data 31 december 1992 syndrome \( \) au 31 1992 number date cases report country area date pays de cas de africa algeria 92 31 08 91 angola 514 24 09 92 247 31 03 92 353 30 06 92 1 , 263 20 03 92 6 , 052 20 03 92 1 , 407 05 10 92 cape cap vert 52 08 02 92 central african republic republique 1 , 864 20 03 92 chad 382 17 09 92 3 11 03 92 3 , 482 30 01 92 cote 10 , 792 09 03 92 265 17 12 92 egypt 57 17 12 92 equatorial guinea 13 16 05 92 ethiopia 3 , 978 11 11 92 hicnet medical newsletter page 48 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 215 31 05 92 180 25 02 92 3 , 612 01 07 92 guinea 338 20 03 92 guinea 189 13 07 92 31 , 185 01 10 92 64 31 03 92 liberia liberia 28 31 03 92 arab 7 17 12 92 2 06 11 92 22 , 300 02 12 92 1 , 111 17 07 92 36 19 07 92 maurice 11 29 02 92 121 17 12 92 mozambique 538 10 10 92 311 20 03 92 497 07 02 92 184 12 03 92 reunion reunion 65 20 03 92 8 , 483 12 11 92 sao tome sao tome et 11 03 07 92 senegal senegal 648 09 03 92 18 02 92 sierra 40 20 03 92 somalia 13 17 12 92 south africa du 1 , 316 30 06 92 sudan 650 17 12 92 197 08 07 92 1 , 278 03 04 92 tunisia 114 17 12 92 uganda 34 , 611 01 11 92 united republic republique de 34 , 605 31 05 92 18 , 186 14 05 92 6 , 556 15 10 92 12 , 514 31 03 92 total 211 , hicnet medical newsletter page 49 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 americas 6 10 12 92 et 6 10 12 92 argentina argentine 1 , 820 10 12 92 bahamas 934 10 12 92 315 10 12 92 53 10 12 92 199 10 12 92 49 10 12 92 brazil 31 , 364 10 12 92 british virgin islands iles 4 10 12 92 canada 6 , 889 10 12 92 islands iles 13 10 12 92 chile chili 573 10 12 92 colombia 2 , 957 10 12 92 costa 419 10 12 92 cuba 137 10 12 92 dominique 12 10 12 92 republic republique 1 , 809 10 12 92 224 10 12 92 el 382 10 12 92 french 232 10 12 92 grenada grenade 32 10 12 92 182 10 12 92 273 10 12 92 333 10 12 92 haiti haiti 3 , 086 10 12 92 1 , 976 10 12 92 361 10 12 92 227 10 12 92 mexico 11 , 034 10 12 92 1 10 12 92 netherlands et 110 10 12 92 nicaragua 31 10 12 92 panama 388 10 12 92 51 10 12 92 614 10 12 92 hicnet medical newsletter page 50 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 saint saint et 37 10 12 92 saint 48 10 12 92 saint vincent saint vincent et 41 10 12 92 122 10 12 92 et 1 , 10 12 92 turks islands iles et 25 10 12 92 united states america 242 , 146 10 12 92 310 10 12 92 2 , 173 10 12 92 total 313 , 083 asia afghanistan 17 12 92 bahrain 3 31 03 92 bangladesh 1 30 11 92 30 11 92 2 19 12 91 see cambodia 31 10 92 china \( \) \( \) 11 28 04 92 cyprus 24 17 12 92 democratic people 's republic korea republique de 30 11 92 hong kong 61 26 09 92 india 242 30 11 92 indonesia 24 30 11 92 iran \( islamic republic \) iran \( republique d' \) 56 17 12 92 iraq 7 17 12 92 israel israel 192 17 12 92 hicnet medical newsletter page 51 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 japan 508 04 12 92 jordan 24 17 12 92 kuwait 7 17 12 92 lao people 's democratic republic republique lao 1 23 04 92 lebanon 35 17 12 92 2 03 11 92 malaysia 46 25 05 92 30 11 92 1 30 11 92 16 30 11 92 12 30 11 92 oman 27 17 12 92 pakistan 25 17 12 92 philippines 80 07 10 92 qatar 31 17 12 92 republic korea republique de 10 19 11 92 saudi arabia 46 17 12 92 singapore 43 05 08 92 sri 20 30 11 92 syrian arab republic republique 19 17 12 92 thailand 909 30 11 92 turkey turquie 89 17 12 92 united arab emirates 8 17 12 92 viet nam 28 04 92 yemen yemen 17 12 92 total 2 , 582 europe albania 30 09 92 austria 828 30 09 92 belarus belarus 6 30 09 92 belgium 1 , 224 17 12 92 bulgaria 16 17 12 92 czechoslovakia 32 17 12 92 denmark 1 , 17 12 92 finland 112 17 12 92 hicnet medical newsletter page 52 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 france 21 , 487 17 12 92 germany 8 , 893 17 12 92 greece grece 689 17 12 92 hungary 105 17 12 92 iceland 22 17 12 92 ireland 294 17 12 92 italy 14 , 783 17 12 92 latvia 2 30 09 92 2 30 09 92 55 17 12 92 25 17 12 92 monaco 9 17 12 92 netherlands pays 2 , 330 17 12 92 norway 283 17 12 92 poland 118 17 12 92 portugal 1 , 007 17 12 92 romania 2 , 17 12 92 russian federation federation de 94 30 09 92 san marino saint marin 1 17 12 92 spain 14 , 991 17 12 92 sweden 743 17 12 92 switzerland 2 , 691 17 12 92 united kingdom uni 6 , 510 17 12 92 yugoslavia \( b \) \( b \) 313 30 09 92 total 80 , 810 american 18 11 92 australia 3 , 615 02 12 92 cook islands iles cook 18 02 92 states de 2 01 09 92 4 28 11 91 french 27 28 11 91 10 13 09 91 08 11 91 islands iles 4 14 10 92 marshall islands iles marshall 2 18 03 91 17 12 92 new hicnet medical newsletter page 53 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 et 22 26 08 92 new zealand 348 03 11 92 18 02 92 15 10 92 new guinea 45 10 08 92 1 18 02 92 solomon islands iles salomon 19 12 91 18 02 92 tonga 2 24 07 92 22 11 92 08 06 92 wallis islands iles wallis et 27 05 91 total 4 , world total total 611 , 589 \( \) statistics relating china include 48 cases aids province taiwan les ci se la ne pas 48 cas de dans la province de taiwan \( b \) refers republics areas former socialist federal republic yugoslavia bosnia herzegovina croatia macedonia montenegro serbia slovenia se aux et de republique de montenegro hicnet medical newsletter page 54 cut last part internet david stat com fax 1 \( 602 \) 451 1165 bitnet atw1h asuacad fidonet 1 114 15 amateur packet ax25 wb7tpy wb7tpy az usa na
david stat com \( david dodell \) subject medical news part 3 4 reply david stat com \( david dodell \) distribution world organization stat gateway service , wb7tpy lines 707 cut year lifetime video kit kit includes 25 minute vhs videotape presents common misconceptions mammography tells benefits gains early detection breast cancer jane kit includes guide , poster , flyer , pamphlets mammography kit available directly writing modern , 5000 park street north , st petersburg , fl additional resources combined health information database \( chid \) computerized bibliographic database developed managed agencies u public health service contains references health information health education resources database provides bibliographic citations abstracts journal articles , books , reports , pamphlets , , product descriptions , hard find information sources , health promotion education programs way state local health departments locations addition , chid provides source availability information materials , users may obtain directly present , twenty one chid national cancer institute created cancer patient education 1990 serves resource chid user interested identifying patient education programs specific cancer patient populations , well user trying locate educational resources available patient family cancer education citations include contact person cancer centers , user follow directly appropriate person access chid , check local library medical school , university , hospital , public libraries subscribe commercial database vendors hicnet medical newsletter page 28 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 final report integrated oncology workstation \( revised 5 92 \) book provides conceptual overview clinical information system practicing might include database electronic patient chart records combined access knowledge base information resources , , medline integration data knowledge combined create clinical oncology workstation concept developed means assist oncologist office staff daily management patient care clinical trials book obtained contacting dr robert , project officer , computer communications branch , building 82 , room 201 , bethesda , md scientific information services national cancer institute \( 91 \) booklet international cancer information center \( \) describes product service , including scientific journals \( journal national cancer institute nci \) , specialized current awareness publications \( , oncology \) , online databases \( \) obtain copies booklet , write international cancer information center , dept , national cancer institute , bldg 82 , rm 123 , bethesda , maryland fax request 301 480 hicnet medical newsletter page 29 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 publications patients available nci \( 1 93 \) free copies following patient education materials available \( single copy bulk \) calling nci 's publication ordering service , 1 800 4 cancer cancer prevention chew snuff real bad stuff brochure , designed seventh eighth graders , describes health social effects using smokeless tobacco products fully opened , brochure used poster clearing air guide quitting smoking pamphlet , designed help smoker wants quit , offers variety approaches cessation 24 pages diet , nutrition cancer prevention good news booklet provides overview dietary guidelines may assist individuals reducing risks cancers identifies certain foods choose often others choose less often context total health promoting diet 16 pages smoke \? pamphlet contains self test determine people smoke suggests alternatives substitutes help stop early detection breast exams know pamphlet provides answers questions breast cancer screening methods , including mammography , medical , breast self examination , future technologies includes instructions breast self examination 10 pages cancer tests know guide people 65 pamphlet describes cancer tests important people age 65 older informs men women exams requesting schedule doctors provides men women record cancer tests occur , describes steps follow hicnet medical newsletter page 30 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 cancer found 14 pages right thing get brochure targets black women age 40 older describes importance regular mammograms early detection breast cancer states nci guidelines mammography year lifetime brochure targets women age 40 older describes importance regular mammograms early detection breast cancer states nci guidelines mammography questions answers breast lumps pamphlet describes common breast lumps done includes instructions breast self examination 22 pages questions answers choosing mammography facility brochure lists questions ask selecting quality mammography facility also discusses typical costs coverage testicular self examination pamphlet contains information risks symptoms testicular cancer provides instructions perform testicular self examination pap test save life ! easy read pamphlet tells women importance getting pap test explains request one , often done , go get pap test general research reports depth reports covering current knowledge causes prevention , symptoms , detection diagnosis , treatment various types cancer individual reports available following topics bone marrow transplantation cancer colon rectum cancer lung cancer pancreas melanoma hicnet medical newsletter page 31 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 oral cancers immune system works booklet , written high school level , explains human immune system general public describes sophistication body 's immune responses , impact immune disorders , relation immune system cancer therapies present future 28 pages need know cancer series pamphlets discusses symptoms , diagnosis , treatment , emotional issues , questions ask doctor includes glossary terms resources individual pamphlets available following topics bladder bone brain breast colon rectum 's disease kidney lung melanoma multiple non 's oral cancers ovary pancreas prostate skin uterus patient education drug information sheets spanish english two sided fact sheets \( english spanish \) provide information side effects common drugs used treat cancer , hicnet medical newsletter page 32 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 proper usage , precautions patients fact sheets prepared united states convention , inc , distribution national cancer institute single sets may ordered advanced cancer living day booklet addresses coping terminal illness discussing practical considerations patient , family , friends 30 pages chemotherapy guide self help treatment booklet , question answer format , addresses problems concerns patients receiving chemotherapy emphasis explanation self help 64 pages eating hints recipes tips better nutrition cancer treatment cookbook style booklet includes recipes suggestions maintaining optimum nutrition treatment recipes tested 92 pages facing forward guide cancer survivors booklet presents concise overview important survivor issues , including ongoing health needs , concerns , insurance , employment easy use format includes cancer experiences , practical tips , forms , resources recommended cancer survivors , family , friends 43 pages patient patient cancer clinical trials 15 minute provides simple information patients families clinical trials process \( produced collaboration american college surgeons commission cancer \) questions answers pain control guide people cancer families booklet discusses pain control using medical methods emphasis explanation , self help , patient participation booklet also available american cancer society 44 pages radiation therapy guide self help treatment booklet addresses concerns patients receiving forms radiation therapy emphasis explanation self help 52 pages hicnet medical newsletter page 33 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 taking time support people cancer people care written booklet persons cancer families addresses feelings concerns others similar situations 68 pages clinical trials \? booklet designed patients considering taking part research new cancer treatments explains clinical trials patients easy understand terms gives information help decide participating 24 pages cancer meeting challenge booklet details different types recurrence , types treatment , coping cancer 's return 28 pages breast cancer education series breast biopsy know booklet discusses biopsy procedures describes expect hospital awaiting diagnosis 16 pages breast cancer understanding treatment options booklet summarizes biopsy procedure examines pros cons various types breast surgery discusses radiation therapy primary treatment , adjuvant therapy , process making treatment decisions 19 pages treatment breast cancer booklet presents information different types breast surgery explains expect hospital recovery period following breast cancer surgery breast self examination patients also described 25 pages breast cancer guide followup care booklet woman completed treatment explains importance checking possible signs recurring cancer receiving regular mammograms , getting breast exams doctor , continuing monthly breast self exams offers advice managing physical emotional side effects may accompany surviving breast hicnet medical newsletter page 34 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 cancer 15 pages pediatric cancer education series help tips teenagers cancer magazine style booklet designed provide information support adolescents cancer issues addressed include reactions diagnosis , relationships family friends , school attendance , body image 37 pages hospital days , treatment ways oncology coloring book helps orient child cancer hospital treatment procedures 26 pages managing eating problems cancer treatment booklet contains information importance nutrition , side effects cancer treatment , ways encourage child eat , special diets 32 pages talking child cancer booklet designed parent whose child diagnosed cancer addresses health related concerns young people different ages suggests ways discuss disease related issues child 16 pages someone family cancer booklet written young people whose parent cancer includes sections disease , treatment , emotional concerns 28 pages young people cancer handbook parents booklet discusses common types childhood cancer , treatments side effects , issues may arise child diagnosed cancer offers medical information practical tips gathered experience others 86 pages spanish language publications si con un en sobre el cancer , por favor al 1 800 422 \( 1 800 4 cancer \) cancer prevention hicnet medical newsletter page 35 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 time change de nina bilingual developed specifically young women discusses various health promotion issues nutrition , smoking , exercise , pelvic , pap , breast examinations 34 pages sobre el de para de bilingual pamphlet describes health risks smoking tips quit stay quit 8 pages para de booklet full color , self help smoking cessation booklet prepared specifically spanish speaking americans developed university california , san francisco , nci research grant 36 pages early detection la pap por su su bilingual brochure tells women important get pap test gives brief , clear information needs pap test , go get one , often pap test done un una al ano para una vida bilingual brochure describes importance mammograms early detection breast cancer gives brief information risk breast cancer , done , get one la pap un para cancer del del booklet spanish answers questions pap test , including often done , significance results , diagnostic tests treatments 16 pages lo que saber sobre los de los booklet spanish explains importance three actions recommended nci detect breast cancer early possible requesting regular mammography , getting annual breast exam doctor , performing monthly breast self exam 6 pages hicnet medical newsletter page 36 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 sobre la de un centro de brochure lists questions answers ask selecting quality mammography facility patient education drug information sheets spanish english two sided fact sheets \( english spanish \) provide information side effects common drugs used treat cancer , proper usage , precautions patients fact sheets prepared united states convention , inc , distribution national cancer institute single sets may ordered sobre el de contra el cancer flyer spanish provides brief introduction cancer chemotherapy 12 pages el de para el el booklet spanish addresses concerns patients receiving radiation therapy cancer emphasis explanation self help 48 pages hicnet medical newsletter page 37 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 aids news summaries aids daily summary april 19 april 23 , 1993 centers disease control prevention \( cdc \) national aids clearinghouse makes available following information public service providing information constitute endorsement cdc , cdc clearinghouse , organization reproduction text encouraged however , copies may sold copyright 1993 , information , inc , bethesda , md april 19 , 1993 absence hiv transmission infected orthopedic surgeon journal american medical association \( 04 14 93 \) vol 269 , 14 , p 1807 \( von , c fordham \) risk hiv transmission hiv positive surgeon patient extremely low , provided surgeon strictly universal infection control procedures , write c fordham von et al dartmouth hitchcock medical center lebanon , n h researchers contacted 2 , 317 former patients hiv positive orthopedic surgeon performed invasive procedures january 1 , 1978 june 30 , 1992 orthopedic surgeon voluntarily withdrew practice testing positive hiv total 1 , 174 former patients hiv testing , representing 50 7 percent patients orthopedic surgeon performed invasive procedures 13 5 year period patients tested year category invasive procedure patients found negative hiv enzyme linked two former patients reported known hiv infection prior surgery examination aids case registries vital records neglected detect cases hiv infection among former surgical patients estimated cost initial patient notification testing 158 , 000 , single expensive activity counseling testing accounted 37 percent total expense patient notification testing conducted maintaining confidentiality orthopedic surgeon active participant planning execution study notifying patients infected surgeon 's hiv status disruptive expensive routinely recommended , researchers conclude investigation potential hiv transmission patients hiv infected surgeon journal american medical association \( 04 14 93 \) vol hicnet medical newsletter page 38 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 269 , 14 , p \( smith rogers , et al \) risk hiv transmission surgery remote quantified gathering data multiple , similar investigations , writes smith rogers et al johns hopkins university school medicine baltimore , md researchers identified total 1 , 131 persons hospital databases invasive surgical procedures 1984 1990 hiv positive surgeon listed operating surgeon aids case registries reviewed patients undergone invasive procedures death certificates obtained among 1 , 131 patients , 101 dead , 119 address , 413 test results known , 498 respond questionnaire study patient name found reported aids case registries one newly detected , hiv positive patient determined probably infected 1985 transfusion hiv transmission 369 person hours surgical exposure , suggesting hiv transmission patients unlikely occur frequently per 1000 person hours surgical exposure researchers determined evidence suggest surgeon failed adhere standard infection control guidelines 50 percent patients invasive procedures chose tested , whose results revealed , one person found infected hiv study patient 's infection probably result tainted blood transfusion received 1985 result , evidence transmission hiv hiv positive surgeon patient transpired , researchers conclude april 20 , 1993 drug concerns share aids data new york times \( 04 20 93 \) , p \( , gina \) total 15 major pharmaceutical companies decided , highly unusual move , share aids drugs information drugs undergoing early clinical testing dr edward , president merck research laboratory , n j , arranged collaboration said cooperation companies seemed increasingly significant become clear combinations drugs likely effective fighting hiv drug used alone researchers hopeful hiv , faced combination several drugs requiring mutation different sites resistance develop , unable evolve mutations time therefore , several drugs taken together one could halt spread hiv currently , drug companies know drugs competitors developing new agreement allows companies routinely exchange animal data safety data new aids drugs agreement like greatly facilitate hicnet medical newsletter page 39 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 ability choose best drug combinations much faster much efficient way , said also said collaboration would violate antitrust laws creating agreement , merck spoke frequently members aids advocacy groups , including act dr daniel hoth , director division aids national institute allergy infectious disease said , 're delighted see pharmaceutical industry take step think increasing information flow likely accelerate discovery better compounds aids related stories wall street journal \( 04 20 \) p b1 philadelphia inquirer \( 04 20 \) p a3 usa today \( 04 20 \) p 1b next step aids treatment nature \( 04 08 93 \) vol 362 , 6420 , p 493 \( maddox , john \) although azt found ineffective lives people infected hiv , findings indicate azt administered people full blown aids , writes columnist john maddox azt used united states asymptomatic hiv positive people basis administration drug appeared abate decline cell counts however , report lancet demonstrated azt used early course disease cd4 counts 877 people given azt consistently greater patients receiving placebo , first three years follow shown proportions people two groups progressing overt aids even death significantly different roughly 18 percent conclusions azt effective aids drug hiv infected individuals , cd4 cell count may reliable proxy progression aids infected people nothing implied study utility azt treatment symptoms already appeared case abandoning treatment , least evidence available much alarming cd4 count proven unreliable mark efficacy drug treatment hiv infection aids researchers acknowledge hiv alive beginning infection turn workable progress disease general application probably provide better understanding pathogenesis aids , concludes maddox infective anti infective properties breastmilk hiv 1 infected women lancet \( 04 10 93 \) vol 341 , 8850 , p 914 \( van de , philippe et al \) vaccine preparation persistent immune response igm type mother 's body fluids could valuable prevent transmission hiv 1 mother child , write philippe van de et al hicnet medical newsletter page 40 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 national aids control program , researchers hypothesized transmission hiv 1 breastmilk could favored presence infected cells , deficiency anti infective substances breastmilk , factors total 215 hiv 1 infected women enrolled delivery , milk samples collected 15 days , 6 months , 18 months post hiv 1 igg , iga , igm western , latter two removal igg protein g 15 day 6 month samples , researchers sought viral genome milk cells double chain reaction three sets primers \( gag , pol , env \) 15 days , 6 months , 18 months post , hiv 1 specific igg detected 95 percent , 98 percent , 97 percent breastmilk samples iga 23 percent , 28 percent , 41 percent igm 66 percent , 78 percent , 41 percent children survived longer 18 months risk infection associated lack persistence igm iga milk presence hiv 1 infected cells milk 15 days post strongly predictive hiv 1 infection child analysis combination hiv 1 infected cells breastmilk defective igm response strongest predictor infection igm iga anti hiv 1 breastmilk may protect transmission hiv , researchers conclude april 21 , 1993 firms share aids research global venture journal commerce \( 04 21 93 \) , p 7a total fifteen u european pharmaceutical companies announced tuesday swap drug supplies information early stage aids research hasten search combination therapies fight hiv infection aids companies said unusual move resulted primarily increasing concentration aids research combination therapies since realizing hiv likely develop resistance every individual aids drug edward , president merck co research laboratories , led collaborative effort took year negotiations come together , said participants addition merck , companies involved inter company collaboration aids drug development bristol myers squibb co , , inc , hoffman la , eli lilly co , inc , , ab astra , du pont merck , inc , , miles inc , sigma tau participants said companies involved aids drug development aware joined collaboration , company actively involved hiv anti viral development may participate said collaborators would likely meet every couple months scientific meeting review one another hicnet medical newsletter page 41 volume 6 , number 11 april 25 , 1993 early clinical data american foundation aids research \( \) pleased news collaboration , hopes lead development drug combinations reduce viral resistance related story financial times \( 04 21 \) p 1 guidance hiv infected health care workers lancet \( 04 10 93 \) vol 341 , 8850 , p 952 \( horton , richard \) united kingdom 's department health recently followed advice aids experts scientific reason routine hiv testing among health care workers following recent highly publicized reports health professionals contracted hiv , department issued revised guidelines management cases dr kenneth , chief medical officer , said doctors , dentists , nurses , health care workers ethical duty seek advice exposed hiv infection , including , appropriate , diagnostic hiv testing said , infected health care workers perform invasive procedures carry even remote risk exposing patients virus guidelines end part 3 internet david stat com fax 1 \( 602 \) 451 1165 bitnet atw1h asuacad fidonet 1 114 15 amateur packet ax25 wb7tpy wb7tpy az usa na
ron roth rose com \( ron roth \) subject frequent nosebleeds x gated usenet rosemail gateway \( v1 70 \) organization rose media inc , toronto , ontario lines 73 replies original posting , 's evident people enough mucous keep nose lining protected include small amounts hot , spicy foods meals 's cure , many people find helpful create extra mucus may also consider taking drops juice water \( consult doctor first ! \) , available otc canada lifestyle , exercising sometimes helps environmental influences \( ie , dry air \) 've responses anyone experience rutin another newsgroup might specifics remedies \? robert allison tried e mail , board internet problems , i'm sure whether got information rutin rutin herb , part bioflavonoid complex generally take rutin , take whole bioflavonoid complex instead n't \( exceptions \) 'll eventually create deficiency , major component bioflavonoid complex found hard way years ago recommended rutin , showed deficient patients deficient fore later almost always showed subsequent deficiency , , , made always add anyone low levels rutin time people equally low rutin , really reason take rutin , use whole bioflavonoid complex instead several thousand patients taking many claiming helped , , chronic nose bleeds , , intestinal bleeding \( due drugs \) , etc one patient desperation took whole bottle \( 100 's \) one day painful , bleeding , without ill effects also non toxic high amounts , 's safely recommended allergic citrus fruit \( made \) , pine bark sources available well 90 patients tested show bioflavonoid deficiency , average daily dosage needed 1 2 , major complaints , 4 6 , day common case cannot taken , size taste \( big , n't taste great \) , product made pine bark extract gives effect tablets quite small taste much better , however cost seven times higher equivalent effect one tablet pine bark extract gives effect 1 , name pine bark product ' canadian brands carrying quest 1 , big , bitter , swiss smooth , easier swallowing medium , bitter , \( \) small , easy swallowing give try see happens good luck ! ron roth internet rn rose com rosenet ron roth eating strange results , tom said rosereader 2 10 p003228 entered rosemail 2 10 usenet rose media hamilton \( 416 \) 575 5363
kxgst1 pitt edu \( kenneth gilbert \) subject pregnency without sex \? keywords pregnency sex organization university pittsburgh lines 22 article stephen 735806195 mont stephen mont cs missouri edu \( stephen montgomery smith \) writes school boy , biology teacher told us incident couple passionate without actually sexual intercourse somehow girl became pregnent sperm cells made way clothes via persperation biology teacher misinforming us , incidents actually occur \? sounds like someone pulling leg one way pregnancy occur intercourse days however also artificial insemination implantation techniques , 're speaking natural acts possible pregnancy occur semen deposited outside vagina \( e \) , 's far get clothes way better go talk biology teacher kenneth gilbert university pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit , programmer !
unix brighton ac uk \( \( \( software \) \) \) subject artificial intelligence medicine organization university brighton , uk lines 10 information artificial intelligence medicine , would appreciate could mail whatever informations needed project thank , ian ian bsc computer science \( \) year 2 university brighton janet e mail uk ac unix , uk ac vms ` '
organization penn state university rfm psuvm psu edu subject sleep hospitals \( haldol elderly lines 14 article andrew cmu edu , say 've seen people forties fifties become disoriented demented hospital stays examples 've seen , drugs definitely involved speaking experience , one n't need drugs become disoriented hospital stays 5 days late jan general noise hours night , staff coming every time turned , whatever , check , n't get much sustained sleep night spent days , perspective tired ! bobm let 's reinvent hospital organization !
subject localized fat reduction due exercise \( question rginzberg eagle wesleyan edu \( ruth ginzberg \) distribution world organization philosophy dept , wesleyan university nntp posting host wesleyan edu x news reader vms news 1 20in reply nyx cs du edu 's message sun , 25 apr 93 20 32 23 gmtlines 22 lines 22 1993apr25 mnemosyne cs du edu nyx cs du edu writes wondering exercises specific particular regions body \( thighs \) basically tone thighs , fat parts body \( breasts \) would affected much two different mechanisms muscles reduction fat exercises specific particular muscles tone muscles exercised \( example look differences arm pitching arms non pitching arms major league pitchers \) however , exercise also leads reduction body fat , loss body fat equally distributed entire body way spot reduce body fat surgically , distribution body fat genetically determined sometimes muscle look like fat , muscle gains muscle tone may appear though fat changing muscle , really fat muscle tissues totally separate , one ever change ruth ginzberg rginzberg eagle wesleyan edu philosophy department wesleyan university usa
gpivar maestro mitre org \( greg \) subject krillean photography nntp posting host maestro mitre org reply gpivar mitre org \( emporium \) organization mitre corporation , mclean , va lines 27 article 1993apr22 211005 21578 scorch apana org au , bill scorch apana org au \( bill dowding \) writes todamhyp charles unlv edu \( brian huey \) writes think 's correct spelling looking information supplies allow yourselfers take krillean pictures i'm thinking education suppliers schools might appartus sale , n't know companies info greatly appreciated krillean photography involves taking pictures minute decapods resident seas surrounding antarctic pictures taken , perhaps bill oz bill , flame intended 're way , way base simple terms kirilian photography registers electromagnetical fields around objects , simple , takes pictures aura greg still , silent rest easy
dh fnal gov \( \) subject krillean photography organization fermilab lines 8 distribution world nntp posting host fnal gov summary poor person 's kirlian poor person 's kirlian photography \( try home \) 1 hold hand cold window 2 look closely stunning corona effects around fingertips 3 remove hand \( window \) observe image 4 invent crackpot theory explain effect
rind enterprise bih harvard edu \( david rind \) subject candida \( yeast \) bloom , fact fiction organization beth israel hospital , harvard medical school , boston mass , usa lines 18 nntp posting host enterprise bih harvard edu article 1993apr23 1 vms ocom okstate edu banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes n't like term quack applied licensed physician david questionable conduct appropriately called unethical \( opinion \) 3 using laetril treat cancer patients treatment shown ineffective dangerous \( cyanide release \) nci hmm certainly among things would refer quack therapy would tend refer practitioner prescribed laetrile \( whether licensed \) quack unethical behaviors \( ordering unneccessary tests increase fees \) would , prescribing known ineffective therapies seems one hallmarks quack david rind rind enterprise bih harvard edu
cbnewsg cb att com \( gary \) subject good place back surgery \? keywords hospitals back surgery organization distribution usa lines 19 hello , one quick question father back problem long time doctors diagnosed operation needed since lives mexico , wants know hospital anywhere united states particulary famous kind surgery , kind like houston reputation excellent doctors eye surgery additional info pointers appreciated whole lot ! thanks advance gary bell labs
rind enterprise bih harvard edu \( david rind \) subject quack quack \( candida \( yeast \) bloom , fact fiction \) organization beth israel hospital , harvard medical school , boston mass , usa lines 23 nntp posting host enterprise bih harvard edu article gap caltech edu ken isis cns caltech edu \( ken miller \) writes , evidence hypothesis example , controlled double blind studies showing anti fungals n't better sugar water let 's hear n't , anecdotal uncontrolled evidence one side , abject disbelief n't evidence water lourdes curing ms i'm sure anecdotal evidence really think absence double blind study indifferent hypothesis water lourdes cures ms \? 's worth , know one double blind study nystatin candida hypersensitivity syndrome published new england journal \( think 1990 \) showed benefit systemic symptoms \( though think reduced vaginal yeast infections , surprisingly \) recall , yeast crowd major objections study , though n't remember david rind rind enterprise bih harvard edu
undergrad math uwaterloo ca \( jeff \) subject barbecued foods health risk organization university waterloo lines 18 hi , thought 'd add something conversation girlfriend used work lab studying different natural carcinogens mentioned effect barbecued food basically , said eat barbecued foods \( natural carcinogen \) slight carcinogenic properties cancel jeff undergrad math uwaterloo ca jeff undergrad math uwaterloo ca
dxcern cern ch \( \) subject krillean photography reply dxcern cern ch \( \) organization cern european lab particle physics lines 40 article 1993apr26 120417 22328 linus mitre org , gpivar maestro mitre org \( greg \) writes article 1993apr22 211005 21578 scorch apana org au , bill scorch apana org au \( bill dowding \) writes krillean photography involves taking pictures minute decapods resident seas surrounding antarctic pictures taken , perhaps bill oz bill , flame intended 're way , way base simple terms kirilian photography registers electromagnetical fields around objects , simple , takes pictures aura greg still , silent rest easy greg , flame intended , think missed one rare attempts humor sci skeptic krillean kirilian get \? \) btw , think 're bit base , since , knowledge , electromagnetic field around stone rather still , stone nice aura kirilian photographs n't remember , corona discharge think fitting expression aura think 'll find something skeptic faq cheers ,
stark dwovax enet dec com \( todd stark \) subject ocd organization digital equipment corporation lines 60 nntp posting host dwovax summary two important clarifications previous post mine followup previous reply topic , pointed might dangerously misleading two spots 1 stated \( meaning talking therapy \) used treat obsessive compulsive disorder , though sometimes true misleading often found effective , particularly primary treatment today usually consists least part drug therapy current theories condition attribute biological causes psychological , places distinction becomes important 2 mentioned dsm mentions possible diagnostic marker however , might look like something people associate psychotic conditions , unpredictable behaviors , case ocd one diagnostic criteria ocd individual suppress , ' although source anxiety obsessive thoughts actions usually associated ocd frequently mundane predictable , closer nature dangerous nature part references \( one non technical several technical \) someone kind enough supply unable post themself boy could n't stop washing judith \( technical refs \) c disorder donna lynn 1990 10 \( 3 \) 175 198 epidemiology ocd jane j clin psychiatry 1990 51 \( 2 , \) 10 13 waking nightmare overview ocd judith l j clin psychiatry 1990 51 \( 11 , \) 25 28 absence placebo response ocd r , bruce jones , stephen olson j ment disease 1990 vol 178 4 thanks much supplied constructive criticism first post ocd hope helps clarify parts misleading kind regards , todd todd stark stark dwovax enet dec com digital equipment corporation \( 215 \) 354 philadelphia , pa usa \( word \) skin living thought wendell holmes , jr
mechalas gn ecn purdue edu \( john p mechalas \) subject krillean photography organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 22 article lli fnnews fnal gov dh fnal gov \( \) writes poor person 's kirlian photography \( try home \) 1 hold hand cold window 2 look closely stunning corona effects around fingertips 3 remove hand \( window \) observe image 4 invent crackpot theory explain effect advanced kirlian photography \( try home , \) 1 get camera 2 subject face back sun 3 take photo 4 observe glow behind image photo 5 invent crackpot theory explain effect john mechalas i'm actor , mechalas gn ecn purdue edu play one tv aero engineering , purdue university include disclaimer h
stark dwovax enet dec com \( todd stark \) subject mind machines \? organization digital equipment corporation lines 57 nntp posting host dwovax summary brief intro mind machines general article tripos com , homer tripos com \( webster homer \) writes recently learned devices supposedly induce specific brain wave frequencies users simply wearing principle underlying devices well establish principle psychology called , ' whereby external sensory influence gross electrical patterns brain function people experiment widely \( \) used medicine therapeutic purposes given exception tens similar units used external electrical stimulation , usually pain relief , really light sound machine experimental sense specific medical category effect , experimental drugs , fda specifically regulate medical devices way pharmaceuticals would think work reported would incredibly useful , reliable studies therapeutic enhancement effects mind machines , relaxation related effects found meditation self well reported benefits mostly anecdotal subjective far , 's hard generalize potential value pretty good general non technical introduction wide variety devices may found would buddha wear walkman \? interesting background material , names suppliers , capsule reviews specific equipment mind machines \( aka light sound machines \) work \? induce alpha , theta , delta waves person wearing \? research done \? could used tranquilizer \? another bit quackery \? important question might whether enough additional value worth investing found legitimate reliable effect experimentally certain conditions , \( demonstrated influence physiological processes previously considered purely \) never particularly valuable therapeutic tool skill level required subtlety temporary nature effects cases maybe someone else , used whole mailing list devoted mind machines , somewhere net web homer homer tripos com kind regards , todd todd stark stark dwovax enet dec com digital equipment corporation \( 215 \) 354 philadelphia , pa usa \( word \) skin living thought wendell holmes , jr
carl sol1 gps caltech edu \( carl j lydick \) subject krillean photography organization hst wide field planetary camera lines 37 distribution world reply carl sol1 gps caltech edu nntp posting host sol1 gps caltech edu article 1993apr26 120417 22328 linus mitre org , gpivar maestro mitre org \( greg \) writes article 1993apr22 211005 21578 scorch apana org au , bill scorch apana org au \( bill dowding \) writes todamhyp charles unlv edu \( brian huey \) writes think 's correct spelling looking information supplies allow yourselfers take krillean pictures i'm thinking education suppliers schools might appartus sale , n't know companies info greatly appreciated krillean photography involves taking pictures minute decapods resident seas surrounding antarctic pictures taken , perhaps bill oz bill , flame intended 're way , way base simple terms kirilian photography registers electromagnetical fields around objects , simple , takes pictures aura greg flame definitely intended bill making fun misspelling go look word krill also , correct spelling kirlian involves taking photographs corona discharges created attaching subject high voltage source , aura works equally well inanimate objects carl j lydick internet carl sol1 gps caltech edu nsi hepnet sol1 carl disclaimer hey , understand vaxen vms 's get paid understanding astronomy purely amateur level \( \) unless i'm saying directly related vax vms , n't hold organization responsible related vax vms , try hold responsible , organization nothing
julie eddie jpl nasa gov \( julie kangas \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? nntp posting host eddie jpl nasa gov organization jet propulsion laboratory , pasadena , ca lines 42 article dartvax dartmouth edu coos dartmouth edu \( prakash das \) writes article 1993apr20 jpl nasa gov julie eddie jpl nasa gov \( julie kangas \) writes foods taste i'm allergic msg like taste , n't use \? saying n't use like saying n't eat spicy food neighbor ulcer julie , n't necessarily follow use \( msg something else matter \) simply allergic example might allergic \( animal \) , like taste , yet n't follow using \( regularly \) msg might bad \( good , knowledge msg \) effects body long run , maybe 's reason enough use perhaps quit eating mushrooms , beans , cheese msg occurs naturally i'm going quit eating something like might cause trouble later causes problems people would much rather avoid stress worrying goes mouth spending every day reading conflicting reports good bad may eat things quantities may good fine 've made decision n't think 's appropriate anyone try 's good obnoxious harmful words , imo , english \( \) language example ulcer funny , n't appropriate comparison think get tired people saying 'do n't eat x 's bad ! ' well , x may bad everyone even , \? give people information n't ram decisions throats julie disclaimer opinions belong cat one else
banschbach vms ocom okstate edu subject candida \( yeast \) bloom , fact fiction lines 67 nntp posting host vms ocom okstate edu organization osu college osteopathic medicine article hsdndev harvard edu , rind enterprise bih harvard edu \( david rind \) writes article 1993apr23 1 vms ocom okstate edu banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes n't like term quack applied licensed physician david questionable conduct appropriately called unethical \( opinion \) 3 using laetril treat cancer patients treatment shown ineffective dangerous \( cyanide release \) nci hmm certainly among things would refer quack therapy would tend refer practitioner prescribed laetrile \( whether licensed \) quack unethical behaviors \( ordering unneccessary tests increase fees \) would , prescribing known ineffective therapies seems one hallmarks quack david rind one responsibilities licensed physician read medical literature keep changes medical practice laetril resulted nci spending quite bit money clinical trials proved \( anyway \) laetril ineffective cancer physician continued use , better , effective , treatments available , may deserve called quack anti fungals different class big question seems reasonable use patients gi distress sinus problems could due candida blooms following use broad spectrum antibiotics \? rubenfeld , e mail , assured physicians recognize chance candida blooms occuring broad spectrum antibiotic use therefore reinnoculate patients good bacteria restore candida body believe yet standard part medical practice deals critical care patients fungal infection \( systemic \) real problem tries keep good bacteria patients mean physicians think likely found sinus mucus membranes candida women known long time suffer candida blooms vagina women lucky find physician willing treat cause give give advise use otc anti fungal creams since candida primarily ano rectal area , gi symptoms common vaginal problems broad spectrum antibiotic use problem david proof gi discomfort caused candida bloom arguement without proof , action medicine , probalby never , practiced way always use conventional wisdom good example kidney stones conventional wisdom \( clinical trails done come effective prevention \) , restricitng intake calcium oxalates best way prevent kidney stones forming clinical trials focused drugs ultrasonic blasts breakdown stone formed recent new england j medicine article , know conventional wisdom wrong , increasing calcium intake better preventing stone formation restricting calcium intake conventional wisdom animal husbandry animals need good bacteria coming antibiotic therapy makes sense livestock , n't make sense humans david \? talking dangerous treatment \( unless consider yogurt dangerous \) standard part medical practice , gordon r says , incidence gi distress vaginal yeast infections decline marty b
chorley vms ocom okstate edu subject cs gas allergic response ques lines 6 nntp posting host vms ocom okstate edu organization osu college osteopathic medicine question derives waco incident could cs \( gas \) particles create allergic response would result \? especially children ok osu com disavow opinion , existence , necessary
mmeyer m2 dseg ti com \( mark meyer \) subject krillean photography organization ti dseg , spring creek , plano , tx reply gpivar maestro mitre org 's message mon , 26 apr 1993 12 04 17 gmt 1993apr26 120417 22328 linus mitre org lines 16 article 1993apr22 211005 21578 scorch apana org au , bill scorch apana org au \( bill dowding \) writes krillean photography involves taking pictures minute decapods resident seas surrounding antarctic pictures taken , perhaps article 1993apr26 120417 22328 linus mitre org gpivar maestro mitre org \( greg \) writes flame intended 're way , way base simple terms kirilian photography registers electromagnetical fields around objects , simple , takes pictures aura greg , flame intended , discernible sense humor bill wrote intended funny 's called joke , greg look besides , kirilian photography actually photography friend 's two year old son perhaps meant kirlian \? mark meyer mmeyer dseg ti com texas instruments , inc , plano tx every day , jerry grateful n't speak ti triggered primary defense mechanism blast ! affirmative
\( \) subject barbecued foods health risk organization florida state university acns lines 43 article edb acsu buffalo edu , ubvm cc buffalo edu wrote article cup portal com mmm cup portal com \( mark robert thorson \) writes odd exception rule seems product known file' nothing ground dried sassafras leaves natural product , natural product still natural form , maybe 's evade delany maybe special exemption made , appease powerful louisiana democrats one possible reason file' made sassafras leaves , root beer made sassafras bark root bark leaves contain either less bark also sort treatment removes sassafras products concentrated sassafras tea extract claimed removed think keep mind even though may illegal commercially produce sell food carcinogenic substances , illegal people food \( smoking , etc \) true \? well , last time went store buy sassafras bark make root beer , sign saying n't sold human consumption also , asked person wild cherry bark bark , made point telling could n't buy sassafras human consumption find fact people reckless enough step automobile live fear dropping dead pork rib quite funny , sick way eric pepke internet pepke gw scri fsu edu supercomputer computations research institute pepke fsu florida state university span scri pepke , fl bitnet pepke fsu disclaimer employers seldom even listen opinions meta disclaimer society needs disclaimers many lawyers
nigel dataman demon co uk \( nigel ballard \) subject mind machines \? distribution world organization infamy inc reply nigel dataman demon co uk x newsreader simple news 1 90 \( ka9q dis 1 21 \) lines 29 use mind machine bought usa last year although 's wonder cure 's however good stopping thinking ! sound strange \? well suppose 're tired want go bed sleep head full problems resolve , lay bed , quickly come surface , around one unresolved thing next back , bought shirt \? slip select soothing pattern light sound , quickly ca n't concentrate previous stuff brain 's cache kinda get 's flushed , start whole new set stuff useful addition , facility feed output tape player cd box , use new age elevator enhance overall effect better pill cheers nigel nigel ballard int nigel dataman demon co uk i'm pink uk cis radio therefore i'm spam
n3022 cray com \( jim knoll \) subject patti duke 's problem lines 6 nntp posting host reply n3022 cray com organization cray research , inc anyone information struggles patti duke went personal life severe mood swings form chemical imbalance triggered problems \? recall wrote book troubles someone title book \?
jge cs unc edu \( john eyles \) subject tick fever \( aka rocky mtn spotted \) organization university north carolina chapel hill lines 22 distribution usa nntp posting host ceti cs unc edu rocky mountain spotted fever experts \? doctor thinks friend might question , n't tick bite \? frequently find tick crawling walk woods around , tend notice bites pulling one skin something 're likely forget get fever without biting \? sometimes bite let go n't realize bitten \? know let go 've fill , certainly would notice \( \) get fever never pulled tick \( opposed finding one merely crawling \) \? john eyles jge cs unc edu
renee cornell edu subject chelation therapy organization cornell university lines 13 distribution world nntp posting host 128 253 111 135 x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d7 x xxdate mon , 26 apr 93 13 59 09 gmt anyone know anything chelation therapy using edta \? uncle , doctor wants try wondering 1 evidence edta chelation therapy beneficial condition , condition \? 2 possible side effects \? please respond via e mail cornell edu thanks , renee
twain carson u washington edu \( barbara \) subject patti duke 's problem article shelley organization university washington , seattle lines 19 nntp posting host carson u washington edu article 1993apr26 hemlock cray com n3022 cray com writes anyone information struggles patti duke went personal life severe mood swings form chemical imbalance triggered problems \? recall wrote book troubles someone title book \? 's published two books illness call anna autobiography patty duke , patty duke kenneth turan , bantam books 1987 brilliant madness living illness , patty duke hochman , bantam books 1992 barbara
uabdpo dpo uab edu ! gila005 \( stephen holland \) subject annual inguinal hernia repair organization gastroenterology univ alabama lines 16 article jpc avdms8 msfc nasa gov , jpc avdms8 msfc nasa gov \( j porter clark \) wrote synopsis young man hernia one side , repaired , new hernia side gives , asks \? continues course , wife thinks 's sitting long periods time computer , reading news possibility degree causing chronic straining caused bowel movements classic problems supposed looked someone hernia , chronic cough , colon cancer \( 're young \) sitting long periods time computer , reading news good luck surgery ! steve holland
galen med virginia edu \( amir anthony \) subject heat shock proteins organization university virginia lines 8 way ms dna stomach ph 2 approx neutral ph enzymes pancreas point check facts yelling people friendly suggestion 4 26 93
lmtra uts amdahl com \( leon traister \) subject hypertension organization amdahl corporation , sunnyvale ca lines 11 somewhere read person chinese heritage told high blood pressure responded eating \( sorry , n't recall dosage \) apparently supposed work reducing hypertension anyone verify \? work , anyone know appropriate amounts possible side effects \? thanks , leon traister \( lmtra uts amdahl com \)
draper gnd1 wtp gtefsd com \( pam draper \) subject opinions allergy \( hay fever \) shots \? organization gte government systems , federal systems division , , va lines 15 distribution world reply draper gnd1 wtp gtefsd com nntp posting host gnd1 wtp gtefsd com news software vax vms vnews 1 3 4 article 93115 asuacad bitnet , asuacad bitnet writes might look allergy doctor area uses drops instead shots treatment \( given small bottle antigens 3 drops placed tongue 5 minutes \) homeopathic remedies tried one month 15 drops three times day n't notice change whats ever long using drops noticed difference \? treatment expensive insurance cover medicine
lamar edu subject puberty organization lamar university beaumont lines 17 looking network access recent research treatments puberty know specifics , would appreciate email plenty general textbook type references whose daughter afflicted mother rn done rather exhaustive search printed material pls email suggestions lamar edu thanx dale parish orange , texas surface planet lamar 's token perpetual student proper place developing \( 409 \) 745 \( vox \) \( rec \) dat \( \) industrial civilization \?
rind enterprise bih harvard edu \( david rind \) subject candida \( yeast \) bloom , fact fiction organization beth israel hospital , harvard medical school , boston mass , usa lines 37 nntp posting host enterprise bih harvard edu article 1993apr26 1 vms ocom okstate edu banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes different class big question seems reasonable use patients gi distress sinus problems could due candida blooms following use broad spectrum antibiotics \? guess i'm still clear term candida bloom means , certainly well known thrush \( superficial candidal infections mucous membranes \) occur antibiotic use nothing systemic yeast syndrome , quack diagnosis discussed found sinus mucus membranes candida women known long time suffer candida blooms vagina women lucky find physician willing treat cause give give advise use otc anti fungal creams lucky \? since recent article \( randomized controlled trial \) oral yogurt reducing vaginal candidiasis , 've mentioned number patients frequent vaginal yeast infections could try eating 6 ounces yogurt daily turns would rather use anti fungal creams get yeast infections yogurt dangerous \) standard part medical practice , gordon r says , incidence gi distress vaginal yeast infections decline , n't systemic yeast syndrome , nothing quack therapies discussed evidence attempts gi tract bacteria antibiotic therapy n't seem helpful reducing diarrhea , n't think anyone would view quack therapy david rind rind enterprise bih harvard edu
rhaller ns uoregon edu \( rich haller \) subject resound hearing aids \( others \) organization university oregon lines 31 distribution world nntp posting host rhaller cc uoregon edu fairly severe high frequency hearing loss recent rough test showed gently loss 10 falls cliff 70 type loss difficult fit currently using old siemens behind ear aids keep roughly functional , leave lot desired recently opportunity test widex q8 behind ear aids several weeks four independent programs intended customized different hearing situations found definite improvement current aids go ahead another local outfit advertised free trial another programmable system called resound unfortunately able try resound aids office 30 minutes could n't compare widex nevertheless , appear superior impressed able read theory behind give separate posting also carry widex aids one patient \( presumably wealthy \) decided go ahead get resound even though purchased widex 6 months ago problem resound aids twice expensive widex programmable aids could take trip europe difference ! lover bargains hating spend money , hard time persuading go would appreciate opinions hearing aids projections might see improvements technology n't quite expensive rich haller rhaller ns uoregon edu university oregon , eugene , , usa
andersom spot colorado edu \( marc anderson \) subject discussions alt psychoactives organization university colorado , boulder lines 38 nntp posting host spot colorado edu article andrew cmu edu charles nichols andrew cmu edu writes herzog sierra lbl gov \( herzog \) subject discussions alt psychoactives date 20 apr 1993 19 16 25 gmt could people discussing recreational drugs mj , lsd , , etc , take discussions alt drugs \? discussions receive greatest contribution readership people interested strictly smart drugs \( e \) post group two groups \( alt drugs alt psychoactives \) used lately think alt psychoactives deceiving name alt psychoactives supposedly smart drug newsgroup according newsgroup lists usenet establish alt alt \( smart drugs nutrients \) \? noticed posts sci med nutrition regarding smart nutrients may lower groups burden well beg disagree subject recall correctly , alt drugs posts like grow mj use bong \? wow , man , trip etc quite people versed biology wanted discuss centrally active higher level without crap filling bandwidth would suggest proceed create newsgroup dedicated must one dedicated , leave alt psychoactives discussion psychoactives \( including , small portion realm centrally active substances \) wondering group called 'sci would relevent would used formal discussion issues \( , , etc \) informal proposal \( n't know anything net politics adding newsgroup , etc \) alt psychoactives stuff deleted marc andersom spot colorado edu
rhaller ns uoregon edu \( rich haller \) subject resound hearing aid theory understand organization university oregon lines 41 distribution world nntp posting host rhaller cc uoregon edu following based copies given articles published hearing instruments would appreciate comments 'new' technology hearing aids resound system developed basis research appears take different approach aids appears new aid like widex uses flexible \( programmable \) version classical approach parts spectrum others adding compression try help situations major difference resound approach divides spectrum low high frequencies \( splitting point programmable \) , apparently based fact lots vowel information found low frequencies , important information \( unfortunately \) high frequencies two bands treated different compression schemes also developed new fitting algorythm builds call growth latter interesting fits personal experience , though think phrase appears case exceed minimum threshold person hearing loss , deficit becomes less compared normals time reach point sensitivity curves appear converge means boost sound levels , overloading high end people hearing losses hence want progressively less amplification signal get closer maximum tolerable point want boost low volume sounds high potentially differently low high frequency parts spectrum \( specially someone like relatively normal 1000 cps falls cliff \) aids simple compressors n't energy low high frequencies therefor useful high frequency information high volume low frequency components particularly impressive resound performance speech simulated restaurant noise situations rich haller rhaller ns uoregon edu university oregon , eugene , , usa
hardy u washington edu \( gordon rubenfeld \) subject candida \( yeast \) bloom , fact fiction article shelley organization university washington lines 92 nntp posting host hardy u washington edu banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes candida blooms following use broad spectrum antibiotics \? rubenfeld , e mail , assured physicians recognize chance candida blooms occuring broad spectrum antibiotic use therefore reinnoculate patients good bacteria restore candida body believe yet standard part medical practice mine tried explain marty clearly understood antibiotic exposure risk factor fungal infections saying bacteria prevent fungal infections marty made sound like secret known anyone treated urinary tract infection centers pre op liver transplant patients receive bowel directed retaining good flora attempt prevent fungal colonization soon high risk group also use lactobacillus treat nutrition associated diarrhea \( may part due alterations gut flora \) however , part routine practice reinnoculate patients good bacteria antibiotics seen data practice preventing treating fungal infections risk patients whether logical extension available observations 'll leave base strong opinions argue speculations absence clinical trials one place therapy described treating particularly cases c colitis \( fungal infection \) case reports using stool \( ie someone elses \) patients flora n't try home give give advise use otc anti fungal creams since candida primarily ano rectal area , gi symptoms common vaginal problems broad spectrum antibiotic use except n't least apparent disease medicine , probalby never , practiced way always use conventional wisdom good example kidney stones conventional wisdom \( clinical trails done come effective prevention \) , restricitng intake calcium oxalates best way prevent kidney stones forming clinical trials focused drugs ultrasonic blasts breakdown stone formed recent new england j medicine article , know conventional wisdom wrong , increasing calcium intake better preventing stone formation restricting calcium intake seems like excellent argument ignoring anecdotal conventional wisdom \( euphemism data \) good clinical trial , like au w e wade j lee j b k j ti randomized , double blind trial nystatin therapy candidiasis hypersensitivity syndrome see comments n engl j med 1990 dec 20 323 \( 25 \) p 23 psychological tests results three active treatment regimens placebo regimen significantly reduced vaginal systemic symptoms \( p less 0 001 \) , nystatin reduce systemic symptoms significantly placebo conclusions women presumed candidiasis hypersensitivity syndrome , nystatin reduce systemic psychological symptoms significantly placebo consequently , empirical recommendation long term nystatin therapy women appears unwarranted trial address every issue raised , jon noring surprised negative trial since n't use sporanox \( despite crook 's recommendation nystatin \) maybe n't avoid carbohydrates conventional wisdom animal husbandry animals need good bacteria coming antibiotic therapy makes sense livestock , n't make sense humans david \? talking dangerous treatment \( unless consider yogurt dangerous \) standard part medical practice , gordon r says , incidence gi distress vaginal yeast infections decline marty , 've also changed terrain discussion empiric itraconazole undocumented chronic fungal sinusitis systemic hypersensitivity symptoms \( noring syndrome \) yoghurt vitamin therapy undocumented candida \( elaine palmer syndrome \) systemic symptoms significant difference cost risk two empiric therapeutic trials talking real candida infections , whole yeast connection hypothesis , efficacy routine bacterial humans , ability anecdotally effective therapies \( challenged negative randomized trial \) confirm hypothesis \( post hoc ergo propter hoc \) ca n't seem focus disease , therapy , hypothesis discussion i'm lost !
banschbach vms ocom okstate edu subject pms prevented diet change \? lines 274 nntp posting host vms ocom okstate edu organization osu college osteopathic medicine question came sci med nutrition i'm posting answer 22 medical schools u teach courses human nutrition already seen lack nutrition education candida kidney stones present medical community think best example u medicine really missing mark comes knowledge nutrition pms many women \( husbands \) suffer disorder really criminal physicians u taught pms primarily caused diet diet changes prevent ever shooting flames , read entire article decide flaming justified poster sci medi nutrition psychological anthropology course taking , got onto short conversation pms rumors shared several students included ideas vitamin levels , sugar intake , caffeine intake might affect pms symptoms data , much hooey \? many thanks , michael , 've wanted reply post ever since saw got side tracked candida pms lot like candida blooms , physicians n't recognize specific disease entity everything would ever want know pms premenstrual syndrome divided four specific pmt \( anxiety \) pmt \( depression \) anxiety depression forgetfulness insomnia confusion depression lethargy pmt c \( craving \) pmt h \( \) craving sweets weight gain increased appetite breast congestion tenderness sugar ingestion causes abdominal tenderness 1 headache face 2 3 fatigue fainting pmt characterized elevated blood estrogen levels low progesterone levels phase women 's cycle pmt c caused ingestion large amounts refined simple carbohydrates phase women 's cycle , increased glucose tolerance flat glucose curve oral glucose challenge metabolic findings believed responsible pmt c low magnesium low e1 condition hypoglycemia unique pms number different causes hypoglycemia , magnesium seem specific pms hypoglycemia j psychiatry 147 \( 4 \) 477 80 \( 1990 \) complex carbohydrate substituted sugar , magnesium supplementation alpha acid supplementation \( increased 5 6 total calories \) using oil evening oil sources alpha acid pmt characterized elevated progesterone levels phase women 's cycle another cause pmt found lead toxicity \( women without elevated progesterone levels phase \) effect metal ions binding human 28 312 18 \( 1972 \) pmt h associated water salt retention along elevated serum level salt restriction , b6 , magnesium vitamin e breast tenderness effective treating pmt h general discussion pms syndromes came form management premenstrual tension rational nutritional approach 1986 , year nutritional medicine j , ed , publishing , 1986 b nutritional factors premenstrual tension syndromes , j med 28 \( 7 \) 446 64 \( 1983 \) c premenstrual tension , prob obstet gynecol 3 \( 12 \) 1 39 \( 1980 \) treatment traditionally involved progesterone administration find doctor treat pms \( hard finding one treat candida blooms \) progesterone work , supplementation vitamins minerals works even better really awful lot research done pms \( much candida blooms \) many studies called experimental controlled studies \( type rigorous clinical studies doctors like see done \) studies carbohydrate experimental controlled study , effect low fat , high carbohydrate diet symptoms cyclical lancet 2 128 32 \( 1988 \) 21 pts severe persistent cyclical least 5 years duration randomly selected receive specific training reduce dietary fat 15 total calories increase complex carbohydrate ingestion given general dietary advise training 6 months , significant reduction severity breast swelling tenderness trained group reported self reported symptoms well physical exams degree breast swelling , tenderness vitamin experimental controlled study , use vitamin premenstrual tension obstet gynecol scand 39 586 92 \( 1960 \) 218 pts severe recurring pms received 200 , 000 300 , 000iu vitamin daily placebo serum retinol levels monitored high dose supplementation discontinued evidence toxicity occured \( serum retinol ml \) intent study load liver vitamin get normal pool size \( 500 , 000iu 1 , 000 , 000iu \) see normal vitamin pool could prevent pms 48 getting high dose vitamin complete remission symptoms pms 10 getting placebo reported getting complete relief pms 10 vitamin treated group reported improvement pms symptoms experimental controlled study , premenstrual tension treated vitamin j clinical 10 89 \( 1950 \) 30 pts received 200 , 000iu vitamin daily starting day 15 cycle supplementation continuing onset pms symptoms 2 6 months , 30 pts reported significant improvement pms symptoms vitamin supplementation stopped evidence toxicity demonstrated 30 pts followed one year high dose vitamin supplementation stopped pms symptoms 30 pts upto one year vitamin supplementation stopped americans normal store vitamin liver studies several others designed see getting normal store vitamin liver could eliminate pms vitamins given pms \( vitamin , b6 , vitamin e \) , vitamin shown best single effect probably vitamin involved steroid \( estrogen progesterone \) metabolism liver getting liver full vitamin seems one best things prevent symptoms pms vitamin toxic n't want trying without seen physician monitor vitamin toxicity vitamin b6 experimental double blind study , \( vitamin b6 \) premenstrual syndrome randomized crossover trial j r coll gen 39 364 68 \( 1989 \) 32 women aged 18 49 moderate severe pms randomly received b6 daily placebo 3 months groups switched followed another 3 months b6 significant effect emotional aspects pms \( depression , \) symptoms pms affected b6 supplementation experimental double blind study , vitamin b6 supplementation premenstrual obstet gynecol 70 \( 2 \) 145 49 \( 1987 \) 55 pts moderate severe pms received b6 daily placebo 2 months analysis convergence showed b6 significantly improved premenstrual symptoms related nervous system \( dizziness vomiting \) well behavior changes \( poor mental performance , decreased social interaction \) anxiety , depression water retention improved b6 supplementation vitamin b6 rda american men women birth control pills 40 different drugs increase b6 requirement man women birth control pills supplemented 10 15 mg b6 per day dose increased symptoms pms appear dr david r heads biological psychiatry branch nimh quoted clin psychiatry news , december , 1987 stating b6 considered first line drug pms \( progesterone \) patient respond , treatments tried vitamin b6 toxic \( nerve damage \) consumed doses day vitamin e experimental double blind study , efficacy alpha treatment premenstrual syndrome j med 32 \( 6 \) 400 04 \( 1987 \) 35 pts received vitamin e daily 3 cycles placebo vitamin e treated pts 33 reported significant reduction physical symptoms \( weight gain breast tenderness \) placebo group 14 reported significant reduction physical symptoms vitamin e group reported 38 significant reduction anxiety versus 12 placebo group depression , vitamin e group 27 significant decrease depression compared 8 placebo group experimental double blind study , effect alpha premenstrual double blind study j coll nutr 2 \( 2 \) 115 122 \( 1983 \) benign breast disease pmt randomly received vitamin e , , daily placebo 2 months supplementation , vitamin e higher significantly improved pmt pmt c dose needed significantly improve pmt dose vitamin e significantly improved pmt h \( studies shown higher vitamin e doses relieve pmt h symptoms \) magnesium experimental double blind study , magnesium prophylaxis menstrual migraine effects magnesium headache 31 298 304 \( 1991 \) 20 pts headache received 360 mg daily magnesium magnesium acid placebo treatment started 15th day cycle continued 2 months , pain total index significantly lower magnesium group magnesium treatment also significant reduction menstrual distress questionnaire scores magnesium levels significantly lower group 20 pts compared control women suffer pms treatment , magnesium levels cells raised normal range experimental double blind study , oral magnesium successfully premenstrual mood changes obstet gynecol 78 \( 2 \) 177 81 \( 1991 \) aged 24 39 randomly received either magnesium acid mg per day placebo 15th day cycle onset menstrual flow 2 cycles , groups received magnesium menstrual distress questionnaire score cluster pain significantly reduced second cycle \( month \) magnesium treatment group well placebo group switched magnesium supplementation addition , total score menstrual distress questionnaire significantly decreased magnesium supplementation authors suggest magnesium become routine treatment mood changes occur pms numerous observational studies published medical literature also suggest pms primarily disorder arises hormone imbalance dietary nature since observational studies considered physicians sci med anecdotal nature , bothered cite also half dozen good experimental studies done mineral supplementation prevent pms 've chosen best specific studies individual vitamins minerals try point pms primarily nutritional disorder doctors n't recognize nutritional disorders unless see clinical pathology \( , , , etc \) pms probably best reason every doctor trained u get good course human nutrition pms really tip iceberg comes nutritional disorders 's time medicine woke roses 's studies show importance mineral supplementation diet change preventing pms experimental study , effect nutritional programme premenstrual syndrome retrospective analysis , complement med res 5 \( 1 \) 8 11 \( 1991 \) given dietary instructions supplemented \( r \) plus additional vitamin c , vitamin e , magnesium , zinc oil dietary instructions take supplements switch low fat , complex carbohydrate diet retrospective analysis , 96 5 reported improvement pms symptoms 30 sample stating longer suffered pms experimental double blind study , role nutrition managing premenstrual tension syndromes , j med 32 \( 6 \) 405 22 \( 1987 \) low fat , high complex carbohydrate diet along supplementation significantly decreased pms scores compared diet change placebo 6 months experimental program , vitamin mineral group significantly decreased increased progesterone serum phase cycle experimental double blind study , clinical biochemical effects nutritional supplementation premenstrual syndrome , j med 32 \( 6 \) 435 41 \( 1987 \) randomly given \( 12 tablets per day \) placebo treated groups showed significant decrease pms symptoms compared placebo another group got \( 4 tablets per day \) placebo second group patients , significant effect supplementation pms symptoms observed martin banschbach , ph professor biochemistry chairman department biochemistry microbiology osu college osteopathic medicine 1111 w 17th st tulsa , ok 74107 without discourse , remembering , without remembering , learning , without learning , ignorance
brown spk hp com \( pat r brown \) subject help reflux esophagitis organization hewlett packard x newsreader tin version 1 1 4 pl6 lines 3 please post results , close friend condition asked questions
mikeq freddy cna tek com \( mike quigley \) subject pregnency without sex \? keywords pregnency sex organization tektronix , inc , redmond , lines 13 article stephen 735806195 mont stephen mont cs missouri edu \( stephen montgomery smith \) writes school boy , biology teacher told us incident couple passionate without actually sexual intercourse somehow girl became pregnent sperm cells made way clothes via persperation biology teacher misinforming us , incidents actually occur \? go one wonders american education system shape \?
scheiber sage cc purdue edu \( jennifer scheiber \) subject pregnency without sex \? keywords pregnency sex organization purdue university computing center lines 33 article blue cis pitt edu kxgst1 pitt edu \( kenneth gilbert \) writes article stephen 735806195 mont stephen mont cs missouri edu \( stephen montgomery smith \) writes school boy , biology teacher told us incident couple passionate without actually sexual intercourse somehow girl became pregnent sperm cells made way clothes via persperation biology teacher misinforming us , incidents actually occur \? sounds like someone pulling leg one way pregnancy occur intercourse days however also artificial insemination implantation techniques , 're speaking natural acts possible pregnancy occur semen deposited outside vagina \( e \) , 's far get clothes way better go talk biology teacher kenneth gilbert university pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit , programmer ! likely hood conception sperm deposited outside vagina \? ie chance j e n n f e r c h e b e r email scheiber sage cc purdue edu school nursing purdue university
eas3714 ultb isc rit edu \( e story \) subject krillean photography nntp posting host ultb gw isc rit edu organization rochester institute technology lines 16 article 1rgrsvinnmpr gap caltech edu carl sol1 gps caltech edu writes greg flame definitely intended bill making fun misspelling go look word krill also , correct spelling kirlian involves taking photographs corona discharges created attaching subject high voltage source , aura works equally well inanimate objects true showing missing part leaf \? corona discharge \? dry turtle turtle ! ezra story , student rit , eas3714 ultb isc rit edu , trusty \( \? \) mailing address
pasture ecn purdue edu \( karen \) subject summary new diet pill work \? keywords diet pills brown fat organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 10 hi , i'm avid dieter new miracle drug seems involve drug claimed stimulate brown fat burn food creating eat opposed fat stored sorts warnings , elevated blood pressure heart rate , ect silver lining apparently weight loss require change diet possible \? pills dangerous \? karen
troi cc rochester edu \( david sewell \) subject water bio availability organization university rochester rochester , new york lines 19 nntp posting host troi cc rochester edu anyone know either , two combination , reduce body 's ability make use available water \? kind odd experience group hike recently , becoming 9 hours rigorous hiking despite brought 1 1 2 gallons water \( c 6 liters \) drank close twice much anyone else , one else dehydrated n't think general physical condition issue , since least middle pack terms general , far could tell may plain need water people wondering might things took couple tablets hike control asthma \( 24 mg , 100 mg \) gather drugs i'm wondering mean reduce body 's ability utilize available water \? would particularly stupid thing take medication hot weather exercise \? \( always assumed meant lot , n't case yesterday \)
banschbach vms ocom okstate edu subject chelation therapy lines 51 nntp posting host vms ocom okstate edu organization osu college osteopathic medicine article cit cornell edu , renee cornell edu writes anyone know anything chelation therapy using edta \? uncle , doctor wants try wondering 1 evidence edta chelation therapy beneficial condition , condition \? 2 possible side effects \? please respond via e mail cornell edu thanks , renee edta \( chelation therapy \) used physicians try remove calcium plaques system \( approved use \) also possibility lung tissue patients lung disease become \( chest x rays would show \) side effects use edta specific calcium \( also minerals \) think deaths edta chelation therapy used mineral detected corrected animal studies , best way remove calcium plaques rabbits supplement rabbits vitamin c magnesium \( rabbits already synthesize vitamin c , extra vitamin c given diets help magnesium displace calcium plaques \) process occurs plaques lung probably prevented magnesium used supplemental form calcium deposits found deficient calcium 1 magnesium heart disease review j clin nutr 27 \( 1 \) 59 79 \( 1974 \) supplementation magnesium prevent blood vessels 2 importance magnesium deficiency cardiovascular disease heart j 94 649 57 \( 1977 \) need measure serum concentration patients heat disease cannot review article 3 effect dietary magnesium development cholesterol fed rabbits 10 732 7 \( 1990 \) magnesium supplementation greatly decreased formation plaques rabbits feed diet 1 weight added normal food since edta also bind magnesium , 've never really liked 's use reversal apparently patients marty b
blix milton cs uiuc edu \( gunnar blix \) subject need info circumcision , medical cons pros organization university illinois , dept comp sci , urbana , il lines 20 need information medical \( including emotional \) pros cons circumcision \( birth \) especially interested references studies indicate disadvantages refute studies indicate advantages friend medical student writing survey paper , apparently studies run circumcision , main argument lower risk penile cancer please email responses frequent reader either group summarize net gunnar blix good advice one insults blix cs uiuc edu ought forgiven unknown gunnar blix good advice one insults blix cs uiuc edu ought forgiven unknown
banschbach vms ocom okstate edu subject candida \( yeast \) bloom , fact fiction lines 64 nntp posting host vms ocom okstate edu organization osu college osteopathic medicine article hsdndev harvard edu , rind enterprise bih harvard edu \( david rind \) writes article 1993apr26 1 vms ocom okstate edu banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes different class big question seems reasonable use patients gi distress sinus problems could due candida blooms following use broad spectrum antibiotics \? guess i'm still clear term candida bloom means , certainly well known thrush \( superficial candidal infections mucous membranes \) occur antibiotic use nothing systemic yeast syndrome , quack diagnosis discussed found sinus mucus membranes candida women known long time suffer candida blooms vagina women lucky find physician willing treat cause give give advise use otc anti fungal creams lucky \? since recent article \( randomized controlled trial \) oral yogurt reducing vaginal candidiasis , 've mentioned number patients frequent vaginal yeast infections could try eating 6 ounces yogurt daily turns would rather use anti fungal creams get yeast infections yogurt dangerous \) standard part medical practice , gordon r says , incidence gi distress vaginal yeast infections decline , n't systemic yeast syndrome , nothing quack therapies discussed evidence attempts gi tract bacteria antibiotic therapy n't seem helpful reducing diarrhea , n't think anyone would view quack therapy david rind yogurt contains lactobacillus acidophilus l l acidophilus major bacteria vaginal tract primarily responsible keeping vaginal tract acidic yeast free commercial yogurt sold u low l acidophilus l count neither bacteria much important dealing diarrhea problem gordon r told e mail gives patients l acidophilus several different \( set shop colon \) n't told ones yet lactobacillus mostly set shop access oxygen given chance \( mouth , anus , sinus cavity vagina \) good bacteria around greatly decrease chance candida blooms anal region vagina proposed systemic action candida blooms know others swear kinds symptoms arise evil yeast blooms body i'm ready buy yet believe complications specific sites \( vagina , anal maybe lower colon , sinus mouth \) result antibiotic use removes competing bacteria sites thus lets candida grow unchecked restoring right bacterial balance best way \( opinion \) get rid problem anti fungals , low carbohydrate diet vitamin supplementation may help minimize local irritation good bacteria take control food supply lower ph basically starve candida marty b
banschbach vms ocom okstate edu subject candida \( yeast \) bloom , fact fiction lines 118 nntp posting host vms ocom okstate edu organization osu college osteopathic medicine article shelley u washington edu , hardy u washington edu \( gordon rubenfeld \) writes banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes candida blooms following use broad spectrum antibiotics \? rubenfeld , e mail , assured physicians recognize chance candida blooms occuring broad spectrum antibiotic use therefore reinnoculate patients good bacteria restore candida body believe yet standard part medical practice mine tried explain marty clearly understood antibiotic exposure risk factor fungal infections saying bacteria prevent fungal infections marty made sound like secret known anyone treated urinary tract infection centers pre op liver transplant patients receive bowel directed retaining good flora attempt prevent fungal colonization soon high risk group also use lactobacillus treat nutrition associated diarrhea \( may part due alterations gut flora \) however , part routine practice reinnoculate patients good bacteria antibiotics seen data practice preventing treating fungal infections risk patients whether logical extension available observations 'll leave base strong opinions argue speculations absence clinical trials one place therapy described treating particularly cases c colitis \( fungal infection \) case reports using stool \( ie someone elses \) patients flora n't try home give give advise use otc anti fungal creams since candida primarily ano rectal area , gi symptoms common vaginal problems broad spectrum antibiotic use except n't least apparent disease medicine , probalby never , practiced way always use conventional wisdom good example kidney stones conventional wisdom \( clinical trails done come effective prevention \) , restricitng intake calcium oxalates best way prevent kidney stones forming clinical trials focused drugs ultrasonic blasts breakdown stone formed recent new england j medicine article , know conventional wisdom wrong , increasing calcium intake better preventing stone formation restricting calcium intake seems like excellent argument ignoring anecdotal conventional wisdom \( euphemism data \) good clinical trial , like au w e wade j lee j b k j ti randomized , double blind trial nystatin therapy candidiasis hypersensitivity syndrome see comments n engl j med 1990 dec 20 323 \( 25 \) p 23 psychological tests results three active treatment regimens placebo regimen significantly reduced vaginal systemic symptoms \( p less 0 001 \) , nystatin reduce systemic symptoms significantly placebo conclusions women presumed candidiasis hypersensitivity syndrome , nystatin reduce systemic psychological symptoms significantly placebo consequently , empirical recommendation long term nystatin therapy women appears unwarranted trial address every issue raised , jon noring surprised negative trial since n't use sporanox \( despite crook 's recommendation nystatin \) maybe n't avoid carbohydrates conventional wisdom animal husbandry animals need good bacteria coming antibiotic therapy makes sense livestock , n't make sense humans david \? talking dangerous treatment \( unless consider yogurt dangerous \) standard part medical practice , gordon r says , incidence gi distress vaginal yeast infections decline marty , 've also changed terrain discussion empiric itraconazole undocumented chronic fungal sinusitis systemic hypersensitivity symptoms \( noring syndrome \) yoghurt vitamin therapy undocumented candida \( elaine palmer syndrome \) systemic symptoms significant difference cost risk two empiric therapeutic trials talking real candida infections , whole yeast connection hypothesis , efficacy routine bacterial humans , ability anecdotally effective therapies \( challenged negative randomized trial \) confirm hypothesis \( post hoc ergo propter hoc \) ca n't seem focus disease , therapy , hypothesis discussion i'm lost ! candida \) gordon , think best clinical trial candida blooms would involve giving women chronic vaginal candida blooms l acidophilus orally see decrease frequency extent candida blooms vagina since candida seems migrating anal region l acidophilus able keep candida check make intestinal tract anus access oxygen \( like vagina \) much stuff lay press l acidophilus vaginal yeast infections , i'm really amazed someone done clinical trial yet check calcium kidney stone story good reason throw conventional wisdom window would medicine conventional wisdom used develop many standard medical practices could confirmed clinical trials \? clinical trial new arrival medical scene \( important one \) lack proof good bacteria antibiotic use important health patient reason dismiss hand , especially done safely \( like animal husbandry \) marty b
foo pc \( dr foo meng \) subject gain access \? organization foo lines 11 whomever help , doctor , , malaysia recently hooked private home computer email via local telephone company really interested corresponding doctors medical researchers email also hope able subscribe news network medicine someone please tell \? completely new idea vast capabilities email thank attention
vub ac \( philippe lebrun \) subject pregnency without sex \? distribution eunet lines 20 keywords pregnency sex article stephen 735806195 mont , stephen mont cs missouri edu \( stephen montgomery smith \) writes school boy , biology teacher told us incident couple passionate without actually sexual intercourse somehow girl became pregnent sperm cells made way clothes via persperation biology teacher misinforming us , incidents actually occur \? sperm deposited near entrance vagina known cause pregnancy , even presence doubt sperm could make layer cloth find right path waiting , might possible , possible woman virgin pregnant also , sufficiently loose allow near normal intercourse without problem investigating , course , getting honest account exactly happened philippe
vub ac \( philippe lebrun \) subject frozen shoulder lawn mowing distribution eunet lines 15 article 1993apr23 ux1 cts eiu edu , cfaks ux1 cts eiu edu \( alice sanders \) writes frozen shoulder year year still partially frozen , still physical therapy every week pain subsided almost completely last week lawn twenty minutes , two days row push type power mower pain started back little bit first time quite , used ice medicine anybody explain particular activity , seem stress much generally , cause shoulder problem \? need use shoulder muscles push mower n't much exercise , suppose n't , constant 20 minute long effort cause stiffness cramps philippe
nigel allen nigel allen canrem com subject occupational injuries disease workers memorial day reply nigel allen nigel allen canrem com organization canada remote systems distribution sci lines 97 press release american federation state , county municipal employees unions point deadly afscme , unions commemorate workers memorial day national desk , labor writer contact janet rivera american federation state , county municipal employees , , 202 429 washington , april 23 american federation state , county municipal employees \( afscme \) unions wednesday , april 28 , commemorate fifth annual workers memorial day day pay 6 million workers killed , injured , job year , afscme focus workers memorial day efforts dangerous environment corrections officers must work earlier month , afscme corrections officer , robert , killed inmates corrections facility , ohio law order agenda 1980s resulted steady increase prison population past five years jn 1 , 1992 , prison population 709 , 587 projections show continued increase number inmates , expected prison population 811 , 253 1994 conditions prison population created corrections officers partially reflected number assaults inmates staff assaults staff increased dramatically 1987 1989 , remain high 1987 , 808 assaults inmates staff , compared 9 , 961 assaults 1991 increased number inmates brought dangerous combination example ohio officer ratio 1 8 4 second worst ratio nation national average 1 5 3 health safety issues facing corrections officers include aids , hepatitis b , tuberculosis , stress , chemical hazards afscme 50 , 000 members work nation 's federal , state local correctional facilities correction officers alone performing jobs life threatening conditions every year , 10 , 000 american workers die job related injuries , tens thousands die occupational disease public employees nation 's dangerous jobs perilous include highway workers highway workers often injured frequently killed moving traffic work zones n't proper lighting health care workers hospitals highest number job related injuries illnesses private sector employer nursing homes ranked fifth 325 , 000 job related illnesses injuries private sector hospitals 1991 , almost 10 percent previous year generally believed health care workers employed public sector hospitals nursing homes significantly higher rate injuries illnesses private sector counterparts health safety issues facing health care workers include exposure tuberculosis hiv virus , back injuries , high levels stress social workers social workers work mental health institutions often victims assaults , sometimes , fatal attacks instance , last october , man carrying semiautomatic handgun walked county social services building watkins glenn , n fatally shot social services workers , turning gun two basic problems first growing lack support services people n't help need workers overworked , clients given adequate amount counselling conditions may cause clients become frustrated quality clients also becoming violent , moved institutions nearly 2 million workers killed workplace hazards since osha passed moreover , afscme president gerald w explains , osha provide workplace safety protections public employees 1 , 600 public employees killed year job , yet 27 states still provide federally approved osha coverage public employees , said , despite fact public employees highway workers , health care workers , corrections officers , name dangerous work society year fighting passage osha reform legislation give workers greater rights protections , finally guarantee public employees safe need public support successful government workers suffer 25 percent injuries private sector workers , injuries almost 75 percent severe public employees exempted osha law passed 1970 today , public employees half states osha coverage 30 canada remote systems toronto , ontario 416 629 7000 629 7044
noring netcom com \( jon noring \) subject candida \( yeast \) bloom , fact fiction organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 109 article hardy u washington edu \( gordon rubenfeld \) writes marty , 've also changed terrain discussion empiric itraconazole undocumented chronic fungal sinusitis systemic hypersensitivity symptoms \( noring syndrome \) yoghurt vitamin therapy undocumented candida \( elaine palmer syndrome \) systemic symptoms significant difference cost risk two empiric therapeutic trials talking real candida infections , whole yeast connection hypothesis , efficacy routine bacterial humans , ability anecdotally effective therapies \( challenged negative randomized trial \) confirm hypothesis \( post hoc ergo propter hoc \) ca n't seem focus disease , therapy , hypothesis discussion i'm lost ! point 1 i'm beginning see part disagreements whole yeast issue differing perceptions differing meanings words medical doctors specific specialized jargon , necessary precise communication within field \( i'm fully since , , speak peers \) situation sci med , many times words phrases used doctors different specific meaning word used world large , causing significant one example word , relevant yeast discussion , exact meaning systemic obvious meaning word specific , much meaning non doctor also observation newsgroup doctors non doctors come together essentially equal terms , , combined jargon issue , fan flames probably first time practicing doctors get really beat non doctors views medicine , otherwise n't see much practice except occasional difficult patient point 2 understand viewpoint among many practicing doctors prescribe treatments therapies patients unless treatments shown effective risks understood well constructed clinical trials \( usually double blind \) , treatments therapies part approved funded clinical trial doctors , differently would , belief system , unethical practice follows therapy accepted list therefore non therapy even exist , underlying hypothesis theory validity , even sounds plausible currently known anecdotal evidence value , either , treatment point view large , scientist , glad medical practice science takes rigorous approach medical treatment however , also human \( last checked \) , one people significantly helped currently treatment , standard medicine able help , caused sit back wonder holding extreme rigid scientific viewpoint unethical humanitarian considerations , underlying intent scientific approach medicine protect health patient providing best possible care patient , patient come first considering treatment need slightly modified approach treatment satisfies scientific humanitarian viewpoints earlier post outlined crazy idea gist give physician freedom encouragement medical community prescribe alternate , yet proven therapies \( maybe supported anecdotal evidence \) patients avenues accepted therapies exhausted \( \) patient would fully informed therapies treatments supported proper clinical trials real potential risks real possibilities benefit derived approach satisfies need scientific rigor also satisfies humanitarian needs patient reality many patients reached dead end treatment symptoms using accepted medicine go outside orthodox medical community either doctors brave enough prescribe treatments risk losing license , worse , non doctors proper medical training approach also recognizes reality keeps control within orthodox medicine , benefits information gleaned could help focus limited resources towards future clinical trials productive way everybody wins admittedly rose colored approach i'm sure real problems approach well presented strawman stimulate discussion hopefully write may give sci med doctors better idea open alternative therapies , well real difficulty \( read apparent hostility \) coldness 99 9 pure scientific approach medicine believe best approach medical treatment one humanitarian aspects balanced scientific aspects anything else good medicine , imho leanings , guess \) comments \? jon noring charter member infj club 're dying know infj means , brave , e mail , 'll send info jon noring noring netcom com jkn international ip 192 100 81 100 fred's gourmet chocolate 1312 carlton place phone \( 510 \) 294 8153 chips world 's best ! livermore , ca 94550 v mail \( 510 \) 417 4101 \? read alt psychology personality ! 's action
kxgst1 pitt edu \( kenneth gilbert \) subject pregnency without sex \? keywords pregnency sex organization university pittsburgh lines 22 article mentor cc purdue edu scheiber sage cc purdue edu \( jennifer scheiber \) writes article blue cis pitt edu kxgst1 pitt edu \( kenneth gilbert \) writes sounds like someone pulling leg one way pregnancy occur intercourse days however also artificial insemination implantation techniques , 're speaking natural acts possible pregnancy occur semen deposited outside vagina \( e \) , 's far get clothes way better go talk biology teacher likely hood conception sperm deposited outside vagina \? ie chance hmmm really n't know probably quite low overall n't get couple hundred willing couples together find kenneth gilbert university pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit , programmer !
ebrandt jarthur claremont edu \( eli brandt \) subject krillean photography organization harvey mudd college , claremont , ca 91711 lines 9 article mmeyer m2 dseg ti com mmeyer m2 dseg ti com \( mark meyer \) writes besides , kirilian photography actually photography friend 's two year old son perhaps meant kirlian \? think typo photography , practice taking pictures either finns russians , depending one asks eli ebrandt jarthur claremont edu
dyer spdcc com \( steve dyer \) subject candida \( yeast \) bloom , fact fiction article spdcc 1993apr27 organization p dyer computer consulting , cambridge lines 24 article 1993apr26 1 vms ocom okstate edu banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes neither bacteria much important dealing diarrhea problem diarrhea problem \? diarrhea problem \? first , candidal frequent problem antibiotic therapy , cases antibiotic related diarrhea anything candida case vaginal candidiasis oral thrush antibiotic therapy n't going surprise anyone either 's people disagreeing anti fungals , low carbohydrate diet vitamin supplementation may help minimize local irritation good bacteria take control food supply lower ph basically starve candida oh , really \? 'd come \? know , 's really appalling see try comment authoritatively clinical matters bizarre synthesis reading reports literature bobbing citations research literature n't medicine hope 're giving wrong idea medical students steve dyer dyer ursa major spdcc com aka ima , harvard , rayssd , linus , m2c ! spdcc ! dyer
klaus go jp \( klaus hofmann \( \) \) subject cats pregnancy nntp posting host 150 29 28 9 organization national institute materials chem res , , lines 13 hello , heard certain disease \( \? \) transmitted cats harm unborn fetus anybody know \? problem cat apartment \? thanks klaus hofmann national institute materials chemical research 1 1 , , 305 , japan
hoss panix com \( felix cat \) subject good place back surgery \? organization panix public access unix , nyc x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 distribution usa lines 24 gary \( cbnewsg cb att com \) wrote hello , one quick question father back problem long time doctors diagnosed operation needed since lives mexico , wants know hospital anywhere united states particulary famous kind surgery , kind like houston reputation excellent doctors eye surgery additional info pointers appreciated whole lot ! one hospital new york city famous , namely hospital special surgery located upper east side manhattan want address phone let know , 'll get , dont know hand felix cat 0 0 wonderful , wonderful cat ! meow ! hoss panix com
battin cyclops iucf indiana edu \( laurence gene battin \) subject krillean photography nntp posting host cyclops iucf indiana edu organization indiana university x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 18 article 1993apr26 204319 11231 ultb isc rit edu , e story \( eas3714 ultb isc rit edu \) wrote article 1rgrsvinnmpr gap caltech edu carl sol1 gps caltech edu writes greg flame definitely intended bill making fun misspelling go look word krill also , correct spelling kirlian involves taking photographs corona discharges created attaching subject high voltage source , aura works equally well inanimate objects true showing missing part leaf \? corona discharge \? 's called wiping apparatus taking picture whole leaf gene battin battin cyclops iucf indiana edu sig yet
hoss panix com \( felix cat \) subject med school admission organization panix public access unix , nyc x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 17 hi , ive applied class 93 quite number schools \( 20 \) gotten 13 rejects , 4 interviews 3 responses one know heck people send acceptance letters \? according med school admissions book supposed send number class mid march whats going losing sanity checking mailbox every day also anyone useful alternatives case dont get , kind looked chiropractic really dont interest thanks felix cat 0 0 wonderful , wonderful cat ! meow ! hoss panix com
integral stavropol su \( igor \) subject please , help patient ! ! ! distribution world organization scientific industrial centre integral reply integral stavropol su summary help victim ! ! ! \( read letter \) lines 18 mail su subject please , help ! ! ! dear ladies gentlemen ! grateful information address \( \) e mail address loma linda hospital \( approximate position usa , california , near town , 60 miles los angelos \) patient needs consultation clinics operation respect , igor v quit
mcg2 lehigh edu \( marc gabriel \) subject lymenet newsletter vol 1 09 lines 344 lyme disease electronic mail network lymenet newsletter volume 1 number 09 4 26 93 introduction ii announcements iii news wires iv questions 'n' answers v op ed section vi jargon index vii subscribe , contribute get back issues introduction issue newsletter , learn cdc 's announced concern resurgence infectious diseases united states thanks jonathan lord sending upi release cdc announced would feature new series articles morbidity mortality weekly report infectious diseases \( ld one \) keep date series addition , feature wall street journal article legal issues surrounding ld also look lyme 's effects perspective abstract entitled urinary dysfunction lyme disease finally , terry morse asks intriguing question tick 's habitat marc ii announcements source lyme disease update subject call articles attention health care professionals lyme disease update would like publish articles lyme disease diagnosis , lyme treatment , effects lyme lyme physical mental health monthly circulation 6 , 000 mailing list includes lyme patients , physicians , researchers , county health departments , 100 lyme support groups nationwide strive give readers date information lyme disease prevention , diagnosis , treatment , source support practical advice living lyme disease articles approximately 900 1200 words address lyme disease issues non scientific language submit article , mail lyme disease update p box evansville , fax 812 471 1990 one year subscriptions lyme disease update 19 \( 24 outside us \) mail subscription requests address , call 812 471 1990 information iii news wires sender jonathan lord uva virginia edu subject resurgence infectious disease concerns cdc date thursday april 15 , 1993 atlanta \( upi \) resurgence infectious diseases blamed newly emerging viruses bacteria pose major challenge nation 's health care system , federal health officials said thursday centers disease control prevention , reporting latest findings investigation contaminated hamburger meat sickened hundreds 4 states killed least four , said put renewed emphasis battling infectious diseases part emphasis includes new series titled emerging infectious diseases featured cdc 's morbidity mortality weekly report , wide circulation health community issue also top agenda two day meeting scientific update cdc 's draft plan dealing growing threat infectious issue coming responsibility deal , said dr ruth , deputy director cdc 's national center infectious diseases cases malaria u 1992 year since 1960s , latin america experiencing epidemic , first century , said resistance disease causing agents antibiotics also problem seeing much antibiotic resistance past said said even common ear infections frequently seen children becoming resistant antibiotic treatment despite predictions earlier century infectious diseases would soon eliminated public health problem , infectious diseases remain major cause death worldwide leading cause illness death united states , cdc said cited emergence since 1970s myriad newly identified pathogens syndromes , escherichia coli o157 h7 , deadly bacterial infection hepatitis c virus hiv , virus causes aids disease lyme disease toxic shock syndrome incidences many diseases widely presumed control , , malaria tuberculosis , increased many areas , cdc said said efforts control prevention undermined drug resistance source wall street journal reference 04 15 93 , headline lyme disease ruling raises liability issues tick causes lyme disease may found new way cause damage legal liability federal judge 's decision holding property owner liable enough protect workers lyme disease getting much attention latest medical study disease , flu like illness cause severe physical mental rare instances death decision last week put property owners notice may protect ticks also may protect litigation someone becomes infected property decision u district judge robert j ward new york came week long trial case involving four track workers long island railroad judge ward found workers contracted disease bitten ticks job ordered new york state owned commuter line pay workers 560 , 000 compensate pain suffering , addition medical expenses lost wages summer camps , schools , companies facilities rural areas , homeowners rent among groups need worried ruling , says stephen l , attorney new york law firm , case , wrote legal article three years ago warning property owners potential liability even family invites friends backyard barbecue might potentially liable lawsuits insect bites , rare , n't unheard summer , n , last year sued owner home rented , claiming tick property gave rocky mountain spotted fever 1988 , also long island , jury ordered outdoor restaurant pay 3 million patron stung bee , causing allergic reaction permanent judge later threw award , citing evidence near restaurant lawyers say attention lyme disease throughout country 's prevalent new england , middle atlantic states , wisconsin , minnesota northwest may make particular insect bite particularly one illness already proved source controversy issues type medical care insurers cover medical malpractice claims doctors diagnosing disease lawyers say worker 's compensation claims related lyme disease become common states recent years payments worker 's compensation cases , however , limited medical costs lost earnings case judge ward dealt potentially much lucrative avenue damages , involved question negligence unlike worker 's compensation process , law governing injuries rail workers allows finding negligence , result , additional payments pain suffering property owners lawyers say negligence claims made many situations people exposed ticks carry disease ira maurer , partner new york law firm , flynn maurer , represented rail workers , says decision help establish duty sorts property owners protect lyme disease lawyers caution despite judge ward 's decision , winning lawsuit damages caused lyme disease may prove difficult one thing , victims demonstrate pinned got tick bite judge ward found plaintiffs railroad case got lyme disease working property owned railroad , even though none men remembered bitten workers , n't likely exposed elsewhere insects , said saw ticks high grass surrounded work sites spokeswoman railroad says proof four men bitten job railroad considering appeal railroad also disputes judge ward 's finding n't enough protect employees spokeswoman says railroad provides track workers insect repellent special pants protect bug bites debate scientific community lyme disease could open legal defenses property owners , questioning whether victim actually disease rather illness earlier week , journal american medical association reported doctors overly diagnose patients lyme disease damages awarded victim also might influenced medical disputes degree harm lyme disease causes health safety concerns , groups companies already take special measures protect lyme disease last year , headquarters franklin lakes , n j , becton , dickinson co began using , made inc boston designed kill ticks carrying disease medical supply company 's headquarters include 120 acre park , company worried employees walk trails recreation might get infected ruth lister , spokeswoman american camping association indianapolis , says many youth camps accredited organization also begun check children ticks katz , member board fire island pines property owners association , says group spends 30 , 000 year treat 100 acre site coast new york tick killing title urinary dysfunction lyme disease authors chancellor mb de pj p hirsch ih , department urology , jefferson medical college , thomas jefferson university , philadelphia , pennsylvania reference j urol 1993 jan 149 \( 1 \) 26 30 lyme disease , caused spirochete , associated variety neurological describe 7 patients neuro also lower urinary tract dysfunction evaluation revealed 5 patients 2 external noted patient observed urinary tract may involved 2 respects course lyme disease 1 \) dysfunction may part neuro 2 \) spirochete may directly invade urinary tract 1 patient bladder infection lyme spirochete documented biopsy neurological symptoms patients slow resolve active lyme disease residual neurological deficits common practicing areas endemic lyme disease need aware b infection differential diagnosis bladder dysfunction conservative bladder management including clean intermittent guided evaluation recommended iv questions 'n' answers note response question , please forward editor sender terry morse ccmail orst edu subject question lyme vectors compost piles visited sister long island , ny , avoid compost heap back yard , thinks became infected friend mine oregon compost heap would like back claim documentation lyme carrying ticks hang compost heaps \? thank v op ed section section open subscribers would like express opinion vi jargon index bb scientific name ld bacterium cdc centers disease control federal agency charge tracking diseases programs prevent cns central nervous system elisa enzyme linked assays common antibody test em name bull 's eye rash appears 60 patients early infection ifa indirect fluorescent antibody common antibody test ld common abbreviation lyme disease nih national institutes health federal agency conducts medical research issues grants research interests chain reaction new test detects dna sequence question currently tested use detecting ld , tb , aids spirochete ld bacterium 's given name due 's spiral shape western precise antibody test vii subscribe , contribute get back issues subscriptions anyone internet address may subscribe send memo listserv lehigh edu body , type subscribe lymenet l real name fax subscriptions also available send single page fax 215 974 information deletions send memo listserv lehigh edu body , type unsubscribe lymenet l contributions send contributions lymenet l lehigh edu fax 215 974 encouraged submit questions , news items , announcements , commentaries back issues send memo listserv lehigh edu body , type get lymenet l newsletters x yy \( x vol yy issue \) example get lymenet l newsletters 1 01 \( get vol 1 , issue 01 \) lymenet internet lyme disease information source editor chief marc c gabriel mcg2 lehigh edu fax 215 974 contributing editors carl brenner brenner lamont ldgo columbia edu john o'donnell jod equator com advisors carol jane , director william , president lyme disease network new jersey \( 908 390 \) chief ed mackey lehigh edu comments presented attribution , necessarily represent opinions analyses editor newsletter may reproduced posted bulletin boards freely long modified abridged way send bug reports mcg2 lehigh edu
badboy netcom com \( jay keller \) subject men get yeast infections \? organization netcom online communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) distribution na lines 12 men get yeast infections \? spread \? kind symptoms \? ent doctor told uncommon wife get vaginal yeast infection husband takes antibiotics fact recently happened wife explanation antibiotics kill yeast 's competition , thrive increased yeast around penis spread infection intercourse 30 days , wife got yeast jay keller badboy netcom com
gary concave cs wits ac za \( gary taylor \) subject umbilical hernia organization wits university electrical engineering lines 9 could anyone give information umbilical hernias patient weight protruding hernia surgery may risky due obesity remedies could try \? thanx advance dr gary taylor
spp zabriskie berkeley edu \( steve pope \) subject men get yeast infections \? organization u c berkeley erl lines 9 distribution na nntp posting host zion berkeley edu woman told doctor told could catch , , yeast infection , give back , causing probably bogus , , 's another reason use latex steve
badboy netcom com \( jay keller \) subject proventil inhaler organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 15 article rick ysub ysu edu rick ysub ysu edu \( rick \) writes proventil inhaler asthma relief fall steroid category \? looking product literature 's clear non steroid proventil brand , regards , jay keller \( asthmatic proventil head \)
galen med virginia edu \( robert e schmieg \) subject med school admission organization university virginia lines 79 hoss panix com writes hi , ive applied class 93 quite number schools \( 20 \) gotten 13 rejects , 4 interviews 3 responses three possible results interview 1 \) rejection outright 2 \) acceptance outright 3 \) infamous , entrance medical school dependent upon applicant withdrawing acceptance happen late day 1 starting classes one know heck people send acceptance letters \? according med school admissions book supposed send number class mid march whats going losing sanity checking mailbox every day always call admissions office secretaries idea decision might made application calm , respectful , friendly secretaries power might realize , never know could dean admissions answering phone also anyone useful alternatives case dont get , n't get year , sit evaluate motives , desires , goals directing medicine academic accomplishments make decision whether really want medical doctor classmates dropped first semester med school found wanted friends applied four years row accepted medicine career choice must make pushed parents family significant still want medical doctor , determine improve application letter recommendation professor knows well give honest positive recommendation far better one famous professor vaguely remembers face also , n't afraid ask people give honest positive recommendation give chance say 'no , instead medical school saying 'no , turned writing recommendations students know well enough make meaningful comments , honestly could recommend point rewrite personal statement take english professor friendly person skill experience writing proof reading get criticism , saying well say review academic accomplishments grades poor area , n't afraid spend time evidence determined committment help filled pre medicine curriculum gut courses , usually shows look participating local service organizations plus substantial leadership roles organization help also beware things difficult spot weed overall , clear conception wish head want get , combined honest self appraisal skills aptitude , best path take applying program , medical good luck process tom petty says , 'the waiting hardest , least emotionally \) bob schmieg
badboy netcom com \( jay keller \) subject sinus surgery septoplasty organization netcom online communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 31 ent doctor recommended surgery fix sinuses nasal \( probably result least partially several \) one side approximately 10 15 normal flow course known years recently discovered suffer chronic sinus infection , discovered mri severe migraine ct scan subsequently confirmed problems sinuses wants sinus surgery , , frontal , , along nasal septoplasty explained procedure , risks would like know anyone tell surgery , helped \? \( 've already heard couple said n't really help \) moderately severe asthmatic ent doc says large percentage see relief asthma sinus surgery also said unheard migraines go away sinusitis relieved 42 relevant information appreciated regards , jay keller sunnyvale , california badboy netcom com
dpw com \( janice price \) subject iridology credence \? \? \? lines 5 saw printed flyer stated person licensed opinions \? much tell person 's health looking eyes \?
vnet ibm com \( hee cho \) subject prohibit spiral meningitis organization ibm korea disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , ibm news software usenet 3 1 lines 5 like know effective prohibit prevent spiral meningitis child five years old heard 's canada sort side effects , etc hee cho
stephen dubin igc apc org subject pregnency without sex \? nf id r stephen 735806195 mont cdp 000 nf cdp uucp ! apr 26 10 47 00 1993 lines 20 think must hygiene teacher 1955 story civil war soldier shot groin bullet , passing one , entered abdomen young woman standing nearby later , \( young woman virtue \) shown pregnant soldier honorable thing marrying according story , lived happily ever perhaps famous mr 's classes time would come class brandishing aluminum turning \( tapering 3 8 1 2 10 inch length \) would say , boys , know \? 's medical instrument called 's used penis vd ram without anesthetic ! needless say chilling effect n't thoughts least hour later life medical instrument saw flexible sounds actually used , could escape thinking might one day see , , cock \( style \)
mmatusev radford vak12ed edu \( melissa n matusevich \) subject pregnency without sex \? organization virginia 's public education network \( radford \) lines 5 speaking educational systems , recently colleague tell reason one fifth grade students physically developed sexually abused younger child , went say , kicks pituitary gland action causes puberty
kiran village com \( kiran wagle \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? organization sea lines 26 nntp posting host cs utexas edu wrote kw n't like additives , , kw get net learn cook scratch sheesh mary allison exclaims excuse ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ca n't people learn cook scratch net 've gotten lots recipes net n't use additives one simply ca n't cook net , one cook net cooking best done kitchen , stove \( gotcha ! grin \) \( said general frustration people \( anyone particular \) seem expect packaged food conform tastes words , packaged foods liking , prepare foods \) like additives get net go local supermarket , buy lots packaged foods , get net ! ! n't strong feelings additives , long ca n't taste 'em \( rest reply , sorry seemed picking n't trying please accept apologies \) kiran
chungy2 rebecca rpi edu \( yau felix chung \) subject nntp posting host rebecca rpi edu lines 14 hi anyone know possible causes chances hereditary \? also , cases , general procedure reduce pain area prevents patient eating due excessive pain swallowing even talking \? thanks f
kxgst1 pitt edu \( kenneth gilbert \) subject cats pregnancy organization university pittsburgh lines 16 article 1993apr27 etl go jp klaus go jp \( klaus hofmann \( \) \) writes hello , heard certain disease \( \? \) transmitted cats harm unborn fetus anybody know \? problem cat apartment \? cat around problem , pregnant woman change litter box transmitted stool cats kenneth gilbert university pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit , programmer !
ulkyvx louisville edu subject herpes question \? organization university louisville lines 11 nntp posting host ulkyvx louisville edu looking clarification subject trying find information hsv 2 \( herpes \) transmitted \? currently know transmitted inflammation , looking transmitted periods also , want know accurately tested showing \? help would greatly appreciate
lim graphics rent com \( julie lim \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? organization graphics bbs \( 2d , 3d , gif , animation \) 1 908 469 0049 lines 25 michael iastate edu \( michael huang \) writes msg common many food eat , including chinese \( though oriental restaurants might put tad much \) 've noticed go eat chinese food restaurants , usually get slight headache thirst afterwards happens many friends relatives , heh , eat chinese food time home \) \( n't use msg 're cooking \) heck , seem feel like every time eat including cafeteria work half time , headache nothing make go away except throwing ick might imagine , n't eat lot guess tolerance food additives since switched eating mostly steamed veggies 're easy fix , 's wo n't even mention happened last time ate beef \( oops late \) graphics bbs 908 469 0049 's better sharp stick eye ! internet lim graphics rent com \( julie lim \) uucp rutgers ! bobsbox ! graphics ! lim
andrea unity ncsu edu \( andrea free \) subject men get yeast infections \? organization ncsu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 distribution na lines 21 steve pope \( spp zabriskie berkeley edu \) wrote woman told doctor told could catch , , yeast infection , give back , causing probably bogus , , 's another reason use latex steve n't bogus chronic vaginal yeast infections would go away cream 2 weeks 3 rounds antibiotics resistant sinus infection husband also sinus infection six months , went culture husband fluid 7 days quite bit yeast growth \( confirmed lab \) round cleared us andrea
aldridge netcom com \( jacquelin aldridge \) subject pregnency without sex \? organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 14 mmatusev radford vak12ed edu \( melissa n matusevich \) writes speaking educational systems , recently colleague tell reason one fifth grade students physically developed sexually abused younger child , went say , kicks pituitary gland action causes puberty nonsense ! 've taught fifth , sixth , seventh early puberty types fifth nothing early sexual experience jackie
russ pmafire inel gov \( russ brown \) subject organization winco lines 17 article rpi edu chungy2 rebecca rpi edu \( yau felix chung \) writes hi anyone know possible causes chances hereditary \? cancer \( roughly , n't references hand \) 20 30 times prevalent chinese , particularly chinese southern china one province \( region \) extraordinary excess chinese others done major studies association epstein barr virus noted also , cases , general procedure reduce pain area prevents patient eating due excessive pain swallowing even talking \? used
sutton vxcrna cern ch \( sutton , bern sl \) subject hip replacement news software vax vms vnews 1 41 organization european organization nuclear research , cern lines 0
turpin cs utexas edu \( russell turpin \) subject need info circumcision , medical cons pros organization cs dept , university texas austin lines 25 nntp posting host im4u cs utexas edu article 8th cs uiuc edu blix milton cs uiuc edu \( gunnar blix \) writes need information medical \( including emotional \) pros cons circumcision \( birth \) pity hope medical knowledge resolve issues issue sci med time time bottom line normal circumstances , medical advantages medical risks circumcision minor means decision left religious , cultural , ethical , aesthetic parents , best , habit concerned hospital , worst \( prospective \) parents , want regard worry much terms decisions make child , far less importance many schools choose parents think little question undoubtedly push buttons people feel decision infant medical decision russell
kharkov ua \( \) subject supply distribution world organization kharkov , host reply kharkov ua lines 27 private industrial firm 2000 supply could delivered according order selection preparation materials carried qualified personnel 20 year experience sphere provide selection tissues \( special request \) aids , syphilis infection diseases tests bio chemical tests guarantee deliverance products within temperature providing prime condition st 39 apart 49 kharkov , ukraine tel 7 \( \) 2 fax 7 \( \) 2 , e mail kharkov ua relay ussr eu net
donald mackie donald mackie med umich edu subject iridology credence \? \? \? organization um anesthesiology lines 13 distribution world nntp posting host 141 214 86 38 x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d9 x xxdate tue , 27 apr 93 17 38 21 gmt article dpw com janice price , dpw com writes much tell person 's health looking eyes \? looking iris \( iridology \) virtually nothing looking retina allows one small blood vessels helpful assessing various systemic diseases , hypertension diabetes example mackie opinion um disavow
mmm cup portal com \( mark robert thorson \) subject organization portal system \( tm \) lines 18 first , i'm mistaken , animals brown fat , humans secondly , description sounds like 2 , 4 respiratory chain oxidative put layman 's terms , short circuits , causing food energy turned heat 2 , 4 popular 1930 's weight reduction controlled amounts , raises body temperature body reduced amount useful energy available dangerous would wiser adjust present body form , rather play around 2 , 4 insist , suggest look literature university library obtain 2 , 4 taking first year organic chemistry lab course supplies \( 's commonly used \)
mmm cup portal com \( mark robert thorson \) subject hypodermic needle organization portal system \( tm \) lines 4 scientific american nice short article history hypodermic 10 15 years ago prior liquid , paddle like needles used implant tiny pill skin
rind enterprise bih harvard edu \( david rind \) subject candida \( yeast \) bloom , fact fiction organization beth israel hospital , harvard medical school , boston mass , usa lines 22 nntp posting host enterprise bih harvard edu article 1993apr26 1 vms ocom okstate edu banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes oxygen \( like vagina \) much stuff lay press l acidophilus vaginal yeast infections , i'm really amazed someone done clinical trial yet check 've mentioned study couple times ingestion yogurt containing lactobacillus acidophilus prophylaxis candidal , annals internal medicine , 3 1 92 116 \( 5 \) 353 7 problem study used yogurt rather capsules lactobacillus \( even though positive results \) \? study crossover trial daily ingestion 8 ounces yogurt marked decrease infections women ingesting yogurt problems study included small numbers \( 33 patients enrolled \) many protocol violations \( 21 patients analyzed \) still , difference rates infection two groups large study remains fairly believable david rind rind enterprise bih harvard edu
lawrence curcio lc2b andrew cmu edu subject men get yeast infections \? organization doctoral student , public policy management , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 6 distribution na nntp posting host po3 andrew cmu edu reply agate berkeley edu \( \) wife used get recurrent yeast infections one day , doctor sent home medication pill took pill , upon insistence , relieved next day looked pdr rarely causes testicular atrophy anyway , men apparently get yeast infections
wiesel elisha cs yale edu \( elisha wiesel \) subject info colonics purification \? organization yale university computer science dept , new , ct 06520 2158 lines 29 distribution world nntp posting host dolphin zoo cs yale edu recently 've come upon body literature promotes colon cleansing vital aid preventive medicine nutrition particular , dr bernard book colon cleansing health longevity title actually escapes , similar claims regular self administered colonics , along certain orally ingested debris agents , immune system significant degree also plugs unique appliance called board , facilitates self administration colonics sells 100 california based company also plugs tox products chemical agents choice include volcanic ash , supposedly electrical charge , powder , anyone knows anything colon cleansing theory , particulars , board related products , 'd interested hear research personal experience article crossposted alt magick issue touches upon fasting cleansing ritual system purification eli ! wiesel cs yale edu elisha wiesel , davenport college '94 yale university ! ! wiesel minerva cis yale edu \( 203 \) 436 1338 school \( 212 \) 371 home !
wiesel elisha yale edu \( elisha wiesel \) subject info colonics purification \? organization yale university science engineering unix \( tm \) , new , ct 06520 2158 lines 29 distribution world nntp posting host minerva cis yale edu recently 've come upon body literature promotes colon cleansing vital aid preventive medicine nutrition particular , dr bernard book colon cleansing health longevity title actually escapes , similar claims regular self administered colonics , along certain orally ingested debris agents , immune system significant degree also plugs unique appliance called board , facilitates self administration colonics sells 100 california based company also plugs tox products chemical agents choice include volcanic ash , supposedly electrical charge , powder , anyone knows anything colon cleansing theory , particulars , board related products , 'd interested hear research personal experience article crossposted alt magick issue touches upon fasting cleansing ritual system purification eli ! wiesel cs yale edu elisha wiesel , davenport college '94 yale university ! ! wiesel minerva cis yale edu \( 203 \) 436 1338 school \( 212 \) 371 home !
picl25 fsphy1 physics fsu edu \( picl account 25 \) subject cats pregnancy organization florida state university school higher thought news software vax vms vnews 1 4 b1 reply picl25 fsphy1 physics fsu edu lines 24 article 1993apr27 etl go jp , klaus go jp \( klaus hofmann \( \) \) writes heard certain disease \( \? \) transmitted cats harm unborn fetus anybody know \? problem cat apartment \? disease talking lives within cells cats , intestinal cells eggs shed cat 's feces cross infect fetus disease may asymptomatic baby born , may severe may cause blindness mental cat apartment problem however , pregnant women scoop change cat 's addition , whoever empty thoroughly wash hands handling anything else , especially food information came merck manual , 15th ed hope information helpful elisa picl25 fsphy1 physics fsu edu
daniel siemens com \( daniel l \) subject \( formerly national boards \) part 1 request medical students summary request books keywords , national boards , nbme nntp posting host learning siemens com organization siemens corporate research , princeton \( \) , nj distribution usa lines 33 request goes medical students done planning sit \( national boards \) part 1 wife sitting examination early june year would like look old national boards , part 1 questions found following books books currently print books \( 1 \) retired nbme basic medical science test items , nbme published nbme 1991 \( 2 \) self test part 1 basic medical sciences , nbme published nbme 1989 would appreciate anyone books willing loan couple days obviously , would reimburse postage related charges failing would beneficial anyone could point library ny , nj pa area may books please respond e mail since read newsgroup regularly thanks advance daniel e mail daniel learning siemens com
duvm ocs drexel edu \( mike g \) subject need info circumcision , medical cons pros organization drexel university lines 32 x useragent nuntius v1 need info circumcision , medical cons pros article 8th cs uiuc edu gunnar blix , blix milton cs uiuc edu writes need information medical \( including emotional \) pros cons circumcision \( birth \) especially interested references studies indicate disadvantages refute studies indicate advantages friend medical student writing survey paper , apparently studies run circumcision , main argument lower risk penile cancer please email responses frequent reader either group summarize net i'm surprised medical schools still push routine circumcision newborn males population since friend man , ca n't imagine 's like penis , much less foreskin guess american medicine artistic job circumcising every male , visual result would somewhat natural appearance penile cancer thing completely must going school south pacific island tell check journal urology circumcision articles remember least 1 old jewish man \( cut birth \) developed penile cancer mean , cancer risk great , europe circumcising like crazy , teaching boy keep clean issue little proper hygiene goes long way americans hung penis consider cleaning 's way much like surgical intervention basically unnecessary
sjg maths warwick ac uk \( \) subject allergies stuff \( msg sensitivity superstition \? \) nntp posting host organization maths institute , warwick university , uk lines 37 unless plan getting sick wo n't eat stuff without ever learn read labels might please medical researcher pleased personal physician enough give allergy medicine allergy medicine , huh \? get rid resultant migraine whatever , actually suppress allergic reactions \? \( e like antihistamine \? \) far doctors concerned , slip eat something 're allergic \( even wo n't test tell avoid \) tough cheap medicine alleviate symptoms , fine , otherwise suffer one doctor prescribe \( costs nhs 48 6 tablets \) 'd throwing four solid days could n't even drink water got taken moved change doctors reasoning know side effects new ok , fine passed safety tests get prescription list , anyway prepared take risk quality life alternatives get prescribed privately , cannot afford , pay private allergy specialist test tell avoid fairly certain allergic one chemical additive , lot things ca n't eat nothing common except things know safe , testing n't really option many permutations i'm saying never consume anything msg 've noticed certain tolerance level like \( small \) bag bbq chips month problem bag chips bother also chicken yesterday lunch one chinese restaurants day yes , 've noticed work eating tolerance level fairly regularly n't eat anything except home cooking month lose work scratch bad experience know early warning symptoms , though , usually tell whether allergic food 've eaten much usually
stein u washington edu \( kerry ryan \) subject looking info \( sp \? \) article shelley organization university washington lines 4 nntp posting host stein u washington edu hello , friend going \( sp \? \) breast cancer i'm trying learn info would appreciated thanks
carl sol1 gps caltech edu \( carl j lydick \) subject krillean photography organization hst wide field planetary camera lines 26 distribution world reply carl sol1 gps caltech edu nntp posting host sol1 gps caltech edu article 1993apr26 204319 11231 ultb isc rit edu , eas3714 ultb isc rit edu \( e story \) writes article 1rgrsvinnmpr gap caltech edu carl sol1 gps caltech edu writes greg flame definitely intended bill making fun misspelling go look word krill also , correct spelling kirlian involves taking photographs corona discharges created attaching subject high voltage source , aura works equally well inanimate objects true showing missing part leaf \? corona discharge \? yup demonstration refer consists placing leaf plates , taking kirlian photograph cut part leaf , put top plate back , take another kirlian photograph see pretty much image cases turns effect n't nearly striking take trouble clean plates photographs seems moisture leaf left place conducts electricity surprise , surprise ! carl j lydick internet carl sol1 gps caltech edu nsi hepnet sol1 carl disclaimer hey , understand vaxen vms 's get paid understanding astronomy purely amateur level \( \) unless i'm saying directly related vax vms , n't hold organization responsible related vax vms , try hold responsible , organization nothing
paj uk co gec mrc \( paul johnson \) subject help kidney stones reply paj uk co gec mrc \( paul johnson \) organization gec marconi research centre , great baddow , uk lines 28 article garbo ericsson se \( mats \) writes n't relatively new treatment kidney stones involving non invasive use ultra sound patient lowered sort liquid undergoes treatment \? i'm sure 've read somewhere remember correctly painless effective treatment couple weeks ago visited hospital stockholm saw big signs showing way kidney stone saw years ago tomorrow 's world \( low bbc technology news program \) patient lowered bath de water carefully positioned high intensity pressure waves generated electric spark water \( n't get de water conduct \) waves focused kidneys parabolic reflector cause stone break completely painless course , get little bits gravel ouch ! paul paul johnson \( paj gec mrc co uk \) tel 44 245 73331 ext 3245 ideas others like gec marconi research 0 02 reputable idealist responsible opinions
albnyvms bitnet \( chip dunham \) subject use haldol elderly reply albnyvms bitnet organization university albany , suny lines 24 article netcom com , westes netcom com \( estes \) writes anyone know research done use haldol elderly \? short term use drug ever produce long term side effects use drug \? grandmother recently hospitalized given large doses haldol several weeks although drug terminated , changed perky , slightly senile woman virtual vegetable talk anyone cannot even eat brush teeth without assistance seems incredible changes could take place course one one half months believe combination hospital stay drug \( \) part catalysts comments \? estes internet westes netcom com haldol , one wonder drugs works wonders 're carrot henry dunham \( chip \) emt , coordinator ems operations houston field house ems albnyvms bitnet
westes netcom com \( estes \) subject use haldol elderly organization mail group x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 32 lawrence curcio \( lc2b andrew cmu edu \) wrote 've seen people forties fifties become disoriented demented hospital stays examples 've seen , drugs definitely involved father turned vegetable short time hospital fifty three time , 21 separate medications family protested , doctors adamant , telling us none drugs interact even took attitude , disoriented , put something else well ! help md friend family , medication discontinued seizure night , put back one drug two days later , old self guess n't many medical texts address subject 21 way interactions saw thing happen father , less validate take hospitals seems medical science understands precious little taking care human machine drugs given response symptoms \( guess makes sense since studies validate effectiveness drugs based narrow assessment degree particular symptoms \) seems little appreciation well person outside numbers appear test watched dad wither away lose huge amounts body fat muscles tissue hospital something little crazy system attention paid giving every latest drug available attention paid whether enough eat prevent loss muscle tissue really , really bizarre estes internet westes netcom com
matthews oswego edu \( harry matthews \) subject pregnency without sex \? reply matthews oswego oswego edu \( harry matthews \) organization instructional computing center , suny oswego , oswego , ny lines 7 right , listen possibilities transmission swimming pool water \? especially n't par \? 've heard community swimming pools refered public urinals else going \?
alex vuse vanderbilt edu \( alexander p zijdenbos \) subject krillean photography nntp posting host organization vanderbilt university school engineering , nashville , tn , usa lines 23 flame reading posts kirlian \( whatever spelling \) photography could n't help slightly disgusted narrow minded , know , n't believe ca n't see measure attitude many people neither real believer , disbeliever comes called paranormal stuff far i'm concerned , likely existence , instance , god , seems quite accepted societies without scientific basis convinced serious mistake close mind something , anything , simply n't fit current frame reference history shows many great people , great scientists , people kept open mind ridiculed sceptics especially usa grateful , columbus drop edge earth flame , end sermon \) alex
ehd hwc ca \( ping yan \) subject medical term sensation \? organization health welfare , canada lines 23 nntp posting host ehd hwc ca x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 dear netters maybe one explain time time experience strange kind feeling \( kinds weird feelings \) best described feeling losing gravity , like one experiences descending elevator needless say , enjoyable sometimes comes breath extreme fatigue lasts minutes hour lasts long , makes initially called \( spelling \? \) later learnt terminology reserved self awareness heart beats , specific term feeling , person \? always believe unique thanks ping
crd ge com \( wes \) subject discussions alt psychoactives nntp posting host 144 219 40 1 organization ge corp r center , schenectady ny lines 3 serious discussion drugs vs get good bong , man \? group moderated \? would eliminate idiots
subject vasectomy health effects women \? nermal santarosa edu \( eric \) organization santa rosa junior college , santa rosa , ca keywords vasectomy woman women contraception men health summary might vasectomy female partner 's long term health \? nntp posting host nermal santarosa edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 16 anyone know studies done long term health effects man 's vasectomy female partner \? 've seen plenty study results vasectomy 's effects men 's health , women \? example , might wife man become risk , say , cervical cancer \? adverse effects sperm antibodies \? changes vagina 's ph \? yeast bacterial infections \? outside study results , informed speculation \? thanks advance help ! eric nermal santarosa edu santa rosa , california telephone \( 707 \) 573
zach fit edu \( judy \( acs \) \) subject krillean photography nntp posting host zach fit edu organization florida institute technology , melbourne , fl usa lines 33 article 1993apr26 120417 22328 linus mitre org gpivar mitre org \( emporium \) writes article 1993apr22 211005 21578 scorch apana org au , bill scorch apana org au \( bill dowding \) writes todamhyp charles unlv edu \( brian huey \) writes think 's correct spelling looking information supplies allow yourselfers take krillean pictures i'm thinking education suppliers schools might appartus sale , n't know companies info greatly appreciated krillean photography involves taking pictures minute decapods resident seas surrounding antarctic pictures taken , perhaps bill oz bill , flame intended 're way , way base simple terms kirilian photography registers electromagnetical fields around objects , simple , takes pictures aura greg still , silent rest easy dear bill , think forgot smileys us got joke !
xenon stanford edu \( jeffrey h hsu \) subject med school admission organization computer science department , stanford university lines 61 i'm fellow applicant situation much better applied 20 schools , got two interviews , got one offer , waiting hear school let honest experiences impressions medical school admissions process numbers \( gpa , \) everything , probably important anything else fact , schools screen applicants based numbers never even look qualities course , happens , n't expect refund 50 application fee , fact got four interviews tells numbers well qualified academically mentioned one response , acceptance , denial , wait list \? assume worst , denial , still great probability acceptance somewhere interviews go \? long wait , 've called schools never contacted anything many told interview season n't heard , assume denial many rejection letters sent may late june schools still interviewing really n't think worry n't become mailbox , go , fun , proud people think medical school admissions process \? mediocre gpa , high scores , working software engineer two years computer science stanford still , think profile person best chance getting admitted something like important gpa 3 5 better top 15 subject medium importance writing speaking ability maturity motivation going medicine activities less important college university major work experience anything else want know anyway , good shape think admissions committees bound many ways numbers , would like much understand person individual sometimes thats practical getting four interviews indicator numbers hopefully , able impress character good luck , jeff
hamlet ucdavis edu \( jaffe \) subject help kidney stones organization university california , davis x newsreader tin 1 1 pl3 lines 14 garbo ericsson se \( mats \) writes n't relatively new treatment kidney stones involving non invasive use ultra sound patient lowered sort liquid undergoes treatment \? i'm sure 've read somewhere remember correctly painless effective treatment use shock waves \( ultrasound \) break stones around years depending type machine , intensity shock waves , usually uncomfortable enough require something high power machines cause enough pain require general regional anesthesia afterwards , feels like someone pretty good !
alan lancaster nsc com \( hepburn \) subject resound hearing aids \( others \) organization national semiconductor corporation lines 50 article rhaller rhaller cc uoregon edu , rhaller ns uoregon edu \( rich haller \) writes fairly severe high frequency hearing loss recent rough test showed gently loss 10 falls cliff 70 type loss difficult fit currently using old siemens behind ear aids keep roughly functional , leave lot desired recently opportunity test widex q8 behind ear aids several weeks four independent programs intended customized different hearing situations found definite improvement current aids go ahead another local outfit advertised free trial another programmable system called resound unfortunately able try resound aids office 30 minutes could n't compare widex nevertheless , appear superior impressed able read theory behind give separate posting also carry widex aids one patient \( presumably wealthy \) decided go ahead get resound even though purchased widex 6 months ago problem resound aids twice expensive widex programmable aids could take trip europe difference ! lover bargains hating spend money , hard time persuading go would appreciate opinions hearing aids projections might see improvements technology n't quite expensive hearing curve sounds lot like mine \( thanks , uncle sam ! \) 've wearing miracle ear canal aids 5 months find acceptable molded shape ear canal , tuned hearing curve comfortable wear almost invisible , 're worried \( although 're currently wearing behind ear models , 's issue \) cost paid 1200 mine , miracle ear counter sears 've heard substantial discount senior citizens , n't researched , i'm senior citizen , yet ! give try might pleasantly surprised ! alan hepburn man n't know knows national semiconductor knows n't know santa clara , ca alan nsc com thomas
banschbach vms ocom okstate edu subject candida \( yeast \) bloom , fact fiction lines 68 nntp posting host vms ocom okstate edu organization osu college osteopathic medicine article bgm hsdndev harvard edu , rind enterprise bih harvard edu \( david rind \) writes article 1993apr26 1 vms ocom okstate edu banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes oxygen \( like vagina \) much stuff lay press l acidophilus vaginal yeast infections , i'm really amazed someone done clinical trial yet check 've mentioned study couple times ingestion yogurt containing lactobacillus acidophilus prophylaxis candidal , annals internal medicine , 3 1 92 116 \( 5 \) 353 7 problem study used yogurt rather capsules lactobacillus \( even though positive results \) \? study crossover trial daily ingestion 8 ounces yogurt marked decrease infections women ingesting yogurt problems study included small numbers \( 33 patients enrolled \) many protocol violations \( 21 patients analyzed \) still , difference rates infection two groups large study remains fairly believable david rind david , study looks like good one gordon rubenfeld medline search also sent reference e mail since commercial yogurt always good lactobacillus culture , negative finding would informative often reason lactobacillus acidophilus tablets recommended rather yogurt guess next question would introduction good bacteria back gut decrease incidence vaginal candida blooms anus serving candida reservoir \( fact gordon r \) \? see two possible theories one , l acidophilus , bacterium , could make gut rectal area candida would explain candida blooms vagina yogurt ingestion stopped though additional bacteria intestinal tract remove glucose feces candida 's major food source getting lactobacillus acidophilus vaginal tract \( normally found \) would much better effect vaginal yeast blooms though acid , lactobacillus acidophilus used get effect 've seen treatment reported medical literature would example physicians conducting clinical trials try come treatments help patients done private practice , results rarely , ever published hallmark medicine modern age emerged clinical trials really raises big question medical profession cast try new treatments help patients look way particular issue really simple one since real dangerous therapy involved \( even anti fungals dangerous \) areas \( like edta chelation therapy \) , fire pretty hot somebody could get burned 's really tough follow well established protocols give n't work well try something looks like work n't proven work yet \? stand consider treatment possibilities , especially involve little risk patient getting good bacteria back gut antibiotic treatment one treatment possibility getting l acidophilus vaginal tract woman problem recurring yeast infections marty b
stark dwovax enet dec com \( todd stark \) subject krillean photography organization digital equipment corporation lines 52 distribution world nntp posting host dwovax article gap caltech edu , carl sol1 gps caltech edu \( carl j lydick \) writes article 1993apr26 204319 11231 ultb isc rit edu , eas3714 ultb isc rit edu \( e story \) writes article 1rgrsvinnmpr gap caltech edu carl sol1 gps caltech edu writes greg flame definitely intended bill making fun misspelling go look word krill also , correct spelling kirlian involves taking photographs corona discharges created attaching subject high voltage source , aura works equally well inanimate objects true showing missing part leaf \? corona discharge \? yup demonstration refer consists placing leaf plates , taking kirlian photograph cut part leaf , put top plate back , take another kirlian photograph see pretty much image cases turns effect n't nearly striking take trouble clean plates photographs seems moisture leaf left place conducts electricity surprise , surprise ! true , 's quite whole story actually people careful methodology also replicated leaf effect ' one influential critics kirlian \( presumably willing entertain hypothesis scientific evidence human aura , electromagnetic otherwise \) , professor electrical engineering london 's city university , past president society psychic research named j ellison years studying method claims , ellison came conclusion photographic images calls figures , ' effect intermittent air around object 's bit complicated wiping plates , ' comes thing end , kirlian much limited value \( \) previously widely thought electrical magnetic fields generated body much small much use without elaborate equipment usually also tracer chemicals kind regards , todd todd stark stark dwovax enet dec com digital equipment corporation \( 215 \) 542 philadelphia , pa usa \( word \) skin living thought oliver wendell holmes , jr
samuel paul rutgers edu \( kristina \) subject request faq organization rutgers univ , new brunswick , n j lines 20 hi friend interested subscribing newsgroup unfortunatly usenet access someone could send faq info subscribe , 'd appreciative want send , get read newsgroup regularly though e mail please thank jody jody rebecca colby college majors history sociology class o' '94 e mail colby edu samuel paul rutgers edu fantasy , music , colors , animals lead society oppression
samuel paul rutgers edu \( kristina \) subject oops silly organization rutgers univ , new brunswick , n j lines 16 sorry friend 's address wants faq info colby edu sorry folks jody jody rebecca colby college majors history sociology class o' '94 e mail colby edu samuel paul rutgers edu fantasy , music , colors , animals lead society oppression
eecs uic edu \( robert \) subject ecg data needed organization university illinois chicago lines 3 need ecg data , uncompressed , hopefully ascii format n't care looks like , signal processing project
dfield flute calpoly edu \( infospunj \( dan field \) \) subject please , help patient ! ! ! organization california polytechnic state university , san luis obispo lines 27 article 3 integral stavropol su integral stavropol su writes mail su subject please , help ! ! ! dear ladies gentlemen ! grateful information address \( \) e mail address loma linda hospital \( approximate position usa , california , near town , 60 miles los angelos \) patient needs consultation clinics operation respect , igor v quit also replied via e mail dialed university librarian , looked loma linda university medical center loma linda , ca n't know internet address , reached telephone \( 714 \) 824 4300 good luck daniel r field , aka infospunj never believe experiment dfield oboe calpoly edu confirmed theory biochemistry , biotechnology arthur california polytechnic state u tongue cheek foot mouth \?
deja vu uiuc edu \( \) subject need info circumcision , medical cons pros organization university illinois urbana champaign lines 49 article 1993apr27 netnews noc drexel edu duvm ocs drexel edu \( mike g \) writes need info circumcision , medical cons pros article 8th cs uiuc edu gunnar blix , blix milton cs uiuc edu writes need information medical \( including emotional \) pros cons circumcision \( birth \) especially interested references studies indicate disadvantages refute studies indicate advantages friend medical student writing survey paper , apparently studies run circumcision , main argument lower risk penile cancer please email responses frequent reader either group summarize net i'm surprised medical schools still push routine circumcision newborn males population since friend man , money probably lot keeping practice routine circumcision alive 's another charge hundred extra bucks completely unnecessary procedure , rationale recently accepted without question parents newborns one could also imagine complications arising circumcision \( infections , sloppy jobs , etc \) far common remote chance penile cancer purported prevent ca n't imagine 's like penis , much less foreskin guess american medicine artistic job circumcising every male , visual result would somewhat natural appearance penile cancer thing completely must going school south pacific island tell check journal urology circumcision articles remember least 1 old jewish man \( cut birth \) developed penile cancer mean , cancer risk great , europe circumcising like crazy , teaching boy keep clean issue little proper hygiene goes long way americans hung penis consider cleaning 's way much like surgical intervention basically unnecessary peter university illinois urbana champaign
vm cc latech edu subject sell tens unit \? organization louisiana tech university lines 10 nntp posting host vm cc latech edu x newsreader nnr vm 1 3 2 sci med people sell tens unit sold physician person \? doug vm cc latech edu
scheiber sage cc purdue edu \( jennifer scheiber \) subject pregnency without sex \? organization purdue university computing center lines 15 article 1993apr27 182155 23426 oswego oswego edu matthews oswego oswego edu \( harry matthews \) writes right , listen possibilities transmission swimming pool water \? especially n't par \? 've heard community swimming pools refered public urinals else going \? sperm would diluted x gallon swimming pool j e n n f e r c h e b e r email scheiber sage cc purdue edu school nursing purdue university
carl sol1 gps caltech edu \( carl j lydick \) subject krillean photography organization hst wide field planetary camera lines 30 distribution world reply carl sol1 gps caltech edu nntp posting host sol1 gps caltech edu article c65oil 436 vuse vanderbilt edu , alex vuse vanderbilt edu \( alexander p zijdenbos \) writes flame reading posts kirlian \( whatever spelling \) photography could n't help slightly disgusted narrow minded , know , n't believe ca n't see measure attitude many people seen attitude \? neither real believer , disbeliever comes called paranormal stuff far i'm concerned , likely existence , instance , god , seems quite accepted societies without scientific basis convinced serious mistake close mind something , anything , simply n't fit current frame reference history shows many great people , great scientists , people kept open mind ridiculed sceptics fine , suppose point even one aspect kirlian photography 's explained corona discharge carl j lydick internet carl sol1 gps caltech edu nsi hepnet sol1 carl disclaimer hey , understand vaxen vms 's get paid understanding astronomy purely amateur level \( \) unless i'm saying directly related vax vms , n't hold organization responsible related vax vms , try hold responsible , organization nothing
enea1 applelink apple com \( horace enea \) subject persistent vs chronic organization apple computer lines 6 anyone tell difference persistent disease chronic one \? example , persistent hepatitis vs chronic hepatitis thanks , horace
brenda eng sun com \( brenda bowden \) subject feverfew migraines organization sun lines 13 nntp posting host heard short blurb news yesterday herb called feverfew \( \? \) say good preventing migraines think news said two double blind studies found effective anyone know studies \? experience feverfew \? i'm skeptical , open trying find feverfew , much would take prevent migraines \( good idea , \) \? known risks side effects feverfew \? thanks advance info ! brenda
mmm cup portal com \( mark robert thorson \) subject iridology credence \? \? \? organization portal system \( tm \) lines 6 iridology descendant 19th century theory mapped certain diseases sectors iris eye 's enough natural variation color skilled examiner find indicators virtually disease modern scientists consider complete bunk
mmm cup portal com \( mark robert thorson \) subject supply organization portal system \( tm \) distribution world lines 1 order \?
mmm cup portal com \( mark robert thorson \) subject info colonics purification \? organization portal system \( tm \) distribution world lines 8 colonics health fad 19th century , persists day except certain medical conditions , reason certainly normal person frequent use lead condition person unable normal bowel passage , essentially person becomes addicted understand , unpleasant condition , would best avoid
organization penn state university rfm psuvm psu edu subject med school admission lines 1 always colleges
stephen mont cs missouri edu \( stephen montgomery smith \) subject pregnency without sex \? keywords pregnency sex organization university missouri lines 21 master cna tek com mikeq freddy cna tek com \( mike quigley \) writes article \? \? \? \? \? \? write school boy , biology teacher told us incident couple passionate without actually sexual intercourse somehow girl became pregnent sperm cells made way clothes via persperation biology teacher misinforming us , incidents actually occur \? go one wonders american education system shape \? actually , school england biology teacher also told reason stars twinkle small spot light retina sometimes falls light cells info suspect start stephen
cpqhou se hou compaq com \( steve \) subject request gyro \( souvlaki \) sauce organization compaq computer corp distribution usa x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 32 michael trofimoff \( tron fafnir la locus com \) wrote hi , would anyone 'net land' happen authentic , sure fire way making great sauce used adorn gyro 's souvlaki \? thanks , home posted one fellow netters month ago memory think i'm fairly close \( way great ! \) 1 plain yogurt 1 2 med sized cucumber shredded 3 garlic \( less taste \) 1 4 dill weed yogurt dumped lined coffee filter allowed drain least 2 hours \( adjust sauce increasing time 24 hours \) shredded drained way mix together let steep least 2 hours \( 's better next day \) enjoy ! steve
ccur com \( christopher j \) subject krillean photography lines 32 organization concurrent computer corp , falls , nj lines 31 article 1993apr26 204319 11231 ultb isc rit edu eas3714 ultb isc rit edu \( e story \) writes article 1rgrsvinnmpr gap caltech edu carl sol1 gps caltech edu writes greg flame definitely intended bill making fun misspelling go look word krill also , correct spelling kirlian involves taking photographs corona discharges created attaching subject high voltage source , aura works equally well inanimate objects true showing missing part leaf \? corona discharge \? think explain missing part leaf story actually seen reproduction particular kirlian photograph , book compiled people enthusiasts kirlian photography particular photograph \? 's right , effect observed even writers book inclined disbelieve conjecture maker photograph began placing whole leaf two plates taking kirlian photo next experiment , cut leaf half , put one half two plates , took another k p missing half effect created water , oils , etc left behind first photo explanation must tentative , n't happened regards , chris
wvhorn magnus acs ohio state edu \( william vanhorne \) subject krillean photography nntp posting host bottom magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 33 article c65oil 436 vuse vanderbilt edu alex vuse vanderbilt edu \( alexander p zijdenbos \) writes reading posts kirlian \( whatever spelling \) photography could n't help slightly disgusted narrow minded , know , n't believe ca n't see measure attitude many people neither real believer , disbeliever comes called paranormal stuff far i'm concerned , likely existence , instance , god , seems quite accepted societies without scientific basis convinced serious mistake close mind something , anything , simply n't fit current frame reference history shows many great people , great scientists , people kept open mind ridiculed sceptics especially usa grateful , columbus drop edge earth one thing open minded demonstrated false , quite another believe something like photography , claimed effects demonstrated artifacts longer reason adopt wait see attitude photography , experimentally shown nothing simple coronal discharge auras shown missing leaf parts came moisture left original whole leaf , example 's science , son bill vanhorne
organization arizona state university asuacad bitnet subject opinions allergy \( hay fever \) shots \? distribution world 93115 asuacad bitnet europa eng gtefsd com lines 13 article europa eng gtefsd com , draper gnd1 wtp gtefsd com \( pam draper \) says homeopathic remedies tried one month 15 drops three times day n't notice change whats ever long using drops noticed difference \? homeopathic remedy improvement began months allergic grass anyone nearby mowing lawn nose would start run walk right n't bother success desert bruce long
dozonoff bu edu \( david ozonoff \) subject food related seizures \? lines 11 x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 michael covington \( mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \) wrote corn , e g \? \? \? little commercial cereal products certainly would n't cause seizures david ozonoff , md , mph boston university school public health dozonoff med bu edu 80 east concord st , \( 617 \) 638 4620 boston ,
carl sol1 gps caltech edu \( carl j lydick \) subject krillean photography organization hst wide field planetary camera lines 23 distribution world reply carl sol1 gps caltech edu nntp posting host sol1 gps caltech edu article usenet pa dec com , stark dwovax enet dec com \( todd stark \) writes yup demonstration refer consists placing leaf plates , taking kirlian photograph cut part leaf , put top plate back , take another kirlian photograph see pretty much image cases turns effect n't nearly striking take trouble clean plates photographs seems moisture leaf left place conducts electricity surprise , surprise ! true , 's quite whole story actually people careful methodology also replicated leaf effect ' also replicate effect rock take first kirlian photograph one edge rock lo ! behold ! phantom rock ! carl j lydick internet carl sol1 gps caltech edu nsi hepnet sol1 carl disclaimer hey , understand vaxen vms 's get paid understanding astronomy purely amateur level \( \) unless i'm saying directly related vax vms , n't hold organization responsible related vax vms , try hold responsible , organization nothing
joel cray com \( joel \) subject vs lopid vs \? nntp posting host equalizer organization cray research inc , san diego ca , usa lines 26 used lopid good job reducing cholesterol \( 295 around 214 \) , well ldl , got pneumonia , reason , lopid stopped working well cholesterol levels might stabilized time , new doctor quit , wait month , switch , total cholesterol 207 , ldl 108 , hdl 35 trig 's still high , around 318 , liver tests came back slightly abnormal , 83 \( n 1 35 \) , \( \? hard read copy \) 42 \( n 0 35 \) said liver numbers enough cause concern , important cholesterol figures stop allow liver heal \( extra cautious , though i'm sure 's problem \) , wants go back suggested maybe lopid might better choice , said would n't object 's want lopid one particular side effect i'm fond liver trig figures feared \? happens folks high trig levels \? liver danger results \? would better lopid , despite inconvenient side effect , , perhaps , drug \? \( niacin affected liver , \)
subject experts edward look ! ! ! eis calstate edu \( philip kwok \) organization calif state univ electronic information services lines 5 student san leandro high school research project physics would like information edward vaccination small pox information would greatly thank
physik uni kl de \( thomas kettenring \) subject krillean photography organization fb physik , universitaet kaiserslautern , germany lines 17 article 1993apr26 204319 11231 ultb isc rit edu , eas3714 ultb isc rit edu \( e story \) writes article 1rgrsvinnmpr gap caltech edu carl sol1 gps caltech edu writes involves taking photographs corona discharges created attaching subject high voltage source , aura works equally well inanimate objects true showing missing part leaf \? corona discharge \? effect disappears clean apparatus whole leaf leaf part thomas kettenring , 3 dan , kaiserslautern , germany n't even know planet native inhabitants government n't tell
hoss panix com \( felix cat \) subject med school admission continued organization panix public access unix , nyc x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 42 hi , got several emails couple news replies guess shoulda went detail anxiety level folks clue may well post specifics see people think regarding previous post applied 20 schools total , 16 md 4 stands 13 rejects , 4 interviews \( 2 md 2 \) , results 2 waiting lists \( 1 md one \) 3 schools heard nothing contacted institutions rejects info whatsoever tell taken good mix apply 2 3 top schools bunch safety \( funny safety schools first reject \) index like 3 5 r7 p9 wq r7 p9 b11 wr couldnt get damn reading score never stuff like art history , politics etc ive done medical research undergrad level , done clinical lab work years , unfortunately patient contact experience cant think else left thats summary percent people usually called waiting lists average \? felt interviews went quite well yet dont firm acceptance hand anyone suggestions calm mailbox anxiety \? med students questions comments feel free send typing form anti anxiety \) felix cat 0 0 wonderful , wonderful cat ! meow ! hoss panix com
hoss panix com \( felix cat \) subject med school organization panix public access unix , nyc lines 38 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 john carey \( news weeg uiowa edu \) wrote actually entering vet school next year , question relevant med students large amounts never strong point academically since major portion medical education anatomy , histology , pathology , , part mass memorization little concerned sure med students anyone suggest techniques type memorization \? reasonable success memory tricks like thinking little stories associate unrelated things never applied large amounts data anyone luck particular books , memory systems , cheap software \? suggest helpful organizational techniques \? older student returned school year , organization \( another one weak points \) major help success please learn material conceptually problem , one strong points ca n't get around fact much medicine memorization thanks help suggestion think top head get large supply index cards memorize small amounts info time , making flash cards everytime get question wrong always manage get damn thing right next time felix cat 0 0 wonderful , wonderful cat ! meow ! hoss panix com
hoss panix com \( felix cat \) subject good place back surgery \? distribution usa organization panix public access unix , nyc lines 36 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 gary \( cbnewsg cb att com \) wrote hello , one quick question father back problem long time doctors diagnosed operation needed since lives mexico , wants know hospital anywhere united states particulary famous kind surgery , kind like houston reputation excellent doctors eye surgery additional info pointers appreciated whole lot ! one hospital new york city famous , namely hospital special surgery located upper east side manhattan want address phone let know , 'll get , dont know hand interested hospitals referring hospital special surgery 535 east street new york , ny 212 606 \( physician referral service info \) hospital joint diseases 301 east 17th street new york , ny 212 598 felix cat 0 0 wonderful , wonderful cat ! meow ! hoss panix com
coos dartmouth edu \( prakash das \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? organization dartmouth college , hanover , nh lines 20 article 1993apr26 jpl nasa gov julie eddie jpl nasa gov \( julie kangas \) writes get tired people saying 'do n't eat x 's bad ! ' well , x may bad everyone even , \? give people information n't ram decisions throats evident read post carefully n't trying tell eat msg products produce , arguing msg simply questioning logic statement simply \( \) one allergic something , \( b \) likes eating follows one could keep eating whatever post , clearly said n't know enough msg statement n't eat x bad interpretation nutritional info prakash das
tad ssc com \( tad cook \) subject krillean photography organization little lines 37 article 1993apr26 120417 22328 linus mitre org gpivar mitre org \( emporium \) writes article 1993apr22 211005 21578 scorch apana org au , bill scorch apana org au \( bill dowding \) writes todamhyp charles unlv edu \( brian huey \) writes think 's correct spelling looking information supplies allow yourselfers take krillean pictures i'm thinking education suppliers schools might appartus sale , n't know companies info greatly appreciated krillean photography involves taking pictures minute decapods resident seas surrounding antarctic pictures taken , perhaps bill oz bill , flame intended 're way , way base simple terms kirilian photography registers electromagnetical fields around objects , simple , takes pictures aura greg 're confused talking kirilian photography bill talking krillean photography tad ssc com \( bounces , use mcimail com \) tad cook packet amateur radio home phone seattle , wa wa usa na 206 527
freenet carleton ca \( lau hon wah \) subject copper bracelet \( dr john sorenson \) reply freenet carleton ca \( lau hon wah \) organization national capital freenet lines 25 seen copper bracelet name created dr john sorenson looking literature effectiveness copper bracelet dealing arthritis know one case 70 year old person developed bruise base left thumb wearing copper bracelet left wrist several months told bruise normal would disappear bruise reason concerned \? person discontinued wearing copper bracelet \? could anyone kindly point literature copper bracelet \? information copper bracelet \? response would much appreciated thank lau hon wah
msnyder nmt edu \( rebecca snyder \) subject centi milli pedes organization new mexico tech lines 10 anyone know posionous centipedes millipedes \? someone bitten , soon would medical treatment needed , would liable happen person \? \( clarification bitten one , house seems infested , want know 'just \) rebecca
dc \( len ramirez \) subject krillean photography nntp posting host 147 145 69 20 reply dc organization lsi logic corporation lines 2 good
ohandley betsy gsfc nasa gov subject schatzki ring pvc 's reply ohandley betsy gsfc nasa gov organization nasa goddard space flight center greenbelt , md usa lines 49 anybody provide advice concerning following two health problems first , recently diagnosed \( using series \) schatzki ring small sliding hernia understand , hernia relatively minor problem , though occasionally nasty probably related schatzki ring , hand , causing swallowing difficulty particular , i'm careful eating slowly , thoroughly chewing food , food occasionally gets stuck reaching stomach results period painful spasms food attempts pass obstruction fortunately , food always managed pass , annoying , causes frequent discomfort doctor wants ring using following procedure use examine stomach inflammation , cut ring passing kind balloon something thru would like know anyone \( similar \) procedure done , painful , successful , etc also , anyone comment safety , , success rate procedure \? become common procedure \? kind leery invasive sounding procedure performed \( currently \) non threatening condition , especially considering possible side effects \( bleeding , , reaction anesthesia \) second issue past 3 4 years large number extra heartbeats particular , past month dramatic increase monitor recently showed 50 pvc 's 24 hrs , along pac 's \( many days , far , however five ten per hour \) isolated , indicated number normal certainly n't feel normal past also couple episodes extended runs beats , one lasted long enough cause severe light relatively young \( 30 ish \) , thin good health \( recent normal \) , smoke , use drugs caffeine , etc i'm willing accept extra beats normal , n't want ignore might kind warning symptom number pvc 's seems increase throughout day , exercise \( something simple climbing stairs \) also , get sitting lying , tend get couple extra beats could possibly related problems \? seemed develop time thanks help advice !
world std com \( bob \) subject soon baby questions organization world public access unix , brookline , distribution lines 12 're first baby , questions dont seem able get answered satisfaction reguarding baby boy , medical pros cons \? 've heard parents' pregnant woman sitting tub water \? 've heard stories infection , etc water broken \? world std com old macdonald agricultural real estate tax
cfaks ux1 cts eiu edu \( alice sanders \) subject kidney stones organization eastern illinois university lines 32 student told today diagnosed kidney stones , one kidney , kidney infection upset condition misdiagnosed since last fall , ill time recent doctor 's appointment parents' hmo clinic , said forty ! x rays made kidney asked many x rays made , told technician need see area different views , says five x rays made angle could n't help feeling something must wrong procedure something pre med student feels could understood happening someone would explained nobody would , got worried also , told 300 ! surgery patients ahead cannot surgery august april supposed rest lot drink fluids go classes wonders given medicine plans call back doctor 's office clinic try get answers questions told would also write sci med see could find many x rays whether seems k wait line 3 months surgery something like whether looking elsewhere care plan get second opinion , pass info never hurts get information one source e mail post thanks alice
kxgst1 pitt edu \( kenneth gilbert \) subject pregnency without sex \? organization university pittsburgh lines 16 article 1993apr27 182155 23426 oswego oswego edu matthews oswego oswego edu \( harry matthews \) writes right , listen possibilities transmission swimming pool water \? especially n't par \? 've heard community swimming pools refered public urinals else going \? dice soon sperm cells hit water would virtually explode inside cell , since membrane water would rush cause cell burst kenneth gilbert university pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit , programmer !
nigel allen nigel allen canrem com subject new method diagnosing alzheimer 's disease discovered reply nigel allen nigel allen canrem com organization canada remote systems distribution sci lines 113 press release huntington medical research institutes new method diagnosing alzheimer 's disease discovered huntington medical research institutes results reported national desk , health writer contact john , 310 444 7000 , 800 522 , huntington medical research institutes los angeles , april 28 new method diagnosing measuring chemical brain lead alzheimer 's disease discovered researchers huntington medical research institutes \( hmri \) pasadena , calif results research reported may issue scientific journal , radiology using advanced form magnetic resonance imaging \( mri \) called magnetic resonance spectroscopy \( mrs \) , research team led brian ross , , phil , conducted study 21 elderly patients believed suffering form dementia exams used standard mri equipment fitted special software developed hmri called clinical proton mrs clinical proton mrs easily applied , giving doctors diagnoses less 30 minutes automated version clinical proton mrs called proton brain examination \( probe \) reduces examination time yet , providing diagnoses less 10 minutes comparison , current standard care testing alzheimer 's disease calls lengthy memory function tests , upsetting patient , definitive confirmed autopsy addition alzheimer 's disease , new clinical proton mrs exam may applications diagnosing , including aids related dementia , parkinson 's disease huntington 's disease 've developed simple test administered quickly relatively inexpensively using existing mri equipment fitted either mrs probe software , said dr ross , adding , help physicians diagnose alzheimer 's earlier intervene progression disease causes damage delicate inner workings brain dr ross hmri team measured family chemicals brain known , \( mi \) acted marker study comparison healthy patients , diagnosed alzheimer 's showed 22 percent increase mi , level another chemical called n \( \) significantly lower , indicating loss brain stimulating neurons believed associated progression disease current drug therapy alzheimer 's disease widely considered inadequate attributable , dr ross believes , theory alzheimer 's caused interruption transmission chemical nerve cells belief last 15 years , consequently , drugs treat alzheimer 's based changing receptors physicians real need test differentiate alzheimer 's , provide patient family firm diagnosis monitor future treatment protocols treatment disease reason , consider test major advancement medicine , said bruce miller , , noted neurologist harbor ucla , mrs researcher co author study members hmri research team included rex , ph , , b , thomas ernst , ph , suzanne woolley , r n probe software fitted approximately 1 , 200 general electric mri units currently use united states , configured mri units soon interviews dr ross , advance copies radiology may issue , information , please contact john hmri 310 444 7000 800 522 q alzheimer 's disease alzheimer 's disease caused \? alzheimer 's disease \( ad \) incurable disease brain first described german alois alzheimer disease , leads loss memory mental functioning , followed changes personality , loss control bodily functions , , eventually , death many people affect \? alzheimer 's disease affects estimated 4 million adults united states fourth leading cause death , taking approximately 100 , 000 lives year alzheimer 's victims , equally devastating , emotionally financially , families ad common cause dementia adults symptoms worsen every year , death usually occurs within 10 years initial onset signs symptoms \? although cause ad known , two risk factors identified advanced age genetic predisposition risk developing ad less one percent age 50 old , increases successive decade life reach 30 percent age 90 patients ad , immediate family relatives 50 percent chance developing ad one first symptoms severe forgetfulness caused short term memory loss dr herman school medicine new york university says whether forgetfulness serious symptom largely matter degree suggests following criteria forgetting name someone see infrequently normal forgetting name loved one serious forgetting left keys normal forgetting get home serious doctors suggest people severe symptoms evaluated order rule alzheimer 's disease forms dementia 30 canada remote systems toronto , ontario 416 629 7000 629 7044
nigel allen nigel allen canrem com subject results gusto heart attack study released friday reply nigel allen nigel allen canrem com organization canada remote systems distribution sci lines 61 press release medical science communications results gusto heart attack study released friday assignment desk , medical writer contact jim augustine medical science communication , 703 644 , steve hull tracy , 800 477 april 29 30 , 202 393 2000 202 7592 \( j w \) news advisory results largest heart attack study ever undertaken , global utilization pa coronary trial \( gusto \) , presented friday , april 30 , clinical research meeting press conference held 12 30 p gusto evaluates aggressive emergency room treatment strategies available clear blocked heart restore blood flow heart , process called strategies compared gusto use powerful drugs break blood clots heart vessels quickly prevent clots recurring strategies never compared directly large scale clinical trial gusto results expected important impact heart attack treatment worldwide press conference held two locations live national press club , main lounge , 13th floor , 529 14th st , n w , washington c , via satellite hotel , 145 w street , 4th floor , new york city , broadway 6th avenue gusto results presented eric , gusto study chairman , professor chairman department cardiology cleveland clinic foundation robert , , clinical director , gusto coordinating center associate professor medicine duke university medical center allan ross , , coordinator gusto professor director division cardiology george washington university medical center editorial notes attention television press conference may viewed entirety via satellite starting 12 30 p \( edt \) c band 302 , transponder 2v \( dual audio 6 2 , 6 8 \) , transponder 8 following press conference , news package b roll feed camera ready illustrations also available press conference telephone hook press conference planned availability limited please call mcs information reporters sheraton washington attending clinical research meeting friday morning , transportation provided press conference bus depart 12 p also available return sheraton press conference information , contact steve hull tracy mcs , gusto study group , 800 477 j w april 29 april 30 202 393 2000 202 7592 information clinical research meeting , contact jim augustine medical science communications 703 644 30 canada remote systems toronto , ontario 416 629 7000 629 7044
nyx cs du edu \( robert rome \) subject need prozac info organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept lines 8 i'm looking information regarding prozac used minor depression also information regarding drug helpful please send responses direct thanks ! nyx cs du edu
andrewm bio uts edu au \( andrew mears \) subject sheep cardiac research organization university technology , sydney lines 17 distribution world nntp posting host iris bio uts edu au keywords sheep arrhythmias cardiac dear news readers , anyone using sheep models cardiac research , specifically concerned arrhythmias , pacing \? would like hear many thanks , andrew mears please email andrewm iris bio uts edu au andrew mears h 61 2 crc cardiac technology , uts w 61 2 st , gore hill f 61 2 n w email andrewm iris bio uts edu au
selway umt edu \( philip j bowman \) subject strain gage applications vivo organization university montana lines 36 article 1993apr28 organpipe uug arizona edu ame 0123 bigdog engr arizona edu \( terrance j dishongh \) writes greeting starting work project trying make strain gages bond bone vivo period several months currently using back gages , tried bonding gages bone apart two application methods n't seem much else literature engineering background medical biological would interest ideas bone growth surface cortical bone thanks help advance terrance j dishongh ame 0123 bigdog engr arizona edu sounds though might want try product super glue active ingredient , compound used reconstruct bones successfully used number procedures many different species animal simply trying something bone several months , would ideal bonds almost , resistant infection , non irritating surrounding tissue phil bowman , manager lab animal resources university montana , mt selway umt edu wg phil bowman , manager laboratory animal resources
mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) subject urine analysis nntp posting host aisun3 ai uga edu organization ai programs , university georgia , athens lines 16 article transfer stratus com randy vos stratus com writes someone please help searching find \( many others may \) absolute removing detectable traces marijuana persons body chemical natural substance ingested added urine make undetectable urine analysis substances found could never go near stuff ! \) michael covington , associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu university georgia phone 706 542 0358 athens , georgia 30602 7415 u amateur radio n4tmi
andrewm bio uts edu au \( andrew mears \) subject sheep models cardiology organization university technology , sydney lines 18 distribution world nntp posting host iris bio uts edu au keywords sheep arrhythmias dear news readers , anyone using sheep models cardiac research , specifically concerned arrhythmias , pacing \? would like hear many thanks , andrew mears please email andrew mears h 61 2 crc cardiac technology , uts w 61 2 st , gore hill f 61 2 n w email andrewm iris bio uts edu au
eileen microware com \( eileen beck \) subject cortisone shots nntp posting host waldo organization microware systems corp , des moines , iowa lines 9 need information implications receiving cortisone shots allergic condition 've usual skin tests common allergies , reacted none substances last two seasons 've received cortisone shots doctors seem reluctant give two three shots \? dangers \?
picl25 fsphy1 physics fsu edu \( picl account 25 \) subject looking info \( p \? \) \( kinda long \) organization florida state university school higher thought news software vax vms vnews 1 4 b1 reply picl25 fsphy1 physics fsu edu lines 57 article shelley u washington edu , stein u washington edu \( kerry ryan \) writes hello , friend going \( sp \? \) breast cancer i'm trying learn info would appreciated thanks 've asked question many different drugs used chemotherapy overall purpose chemotherapy \( n't worry spelling crazy medical words impossible spell ! \) either destroy cancer cells keep growing different drugs different effects cancer cells , therefore , uncommon use one drug time drugs effective anytime growth cycle cell others work specific times cell cycle first phase cell cycle g1 protein synthesis rna occurs second phase , , synthesis dna occurs third phase g2 dna splits rna protein synthesized fourth phase , \( \) , cell may divide drugs effective phase stop dna synthesis others stop cell dividing others wreck protein synthesis rate , end result sought cancer cells stop growing seeking practical advice , apologize rambling techno stuff side effects pretty common drugs rather nasty cause person lose appetite experience nausea vomiting things help include eating small frequent meals also suggested nausea vomiting \( hereafter known n v \) occurs person notify doctor medicines help nausea diarrhea effect medications given , good fluid intake important probably one biggest hair loss always happen depends drugs given , person themself different people taking drug different side effects seen literature states wearing snug wearing ice cap help reduce hair loss , presumably reducing blood flow scalp anyone seen research , would love see , possibly bib data highly recommend making contact american cancer society vast selection literature information addition , friend , highly recommend reach recovery support group comprised entirely women lost breast cancer offer excellent support suggestions questions , please send e mail hav good access information , enjoy trying help people wish best friend
nuscc nus sg \( kiong beng kee \) subject organization national university singapore x newsreader tin 1 1 pl4 lines 16 wife first two months pregnancy son \( 3 months old \) , breast fed , symptoms skin specialist , merely prescribed various medicines \( one visit though trial error \) \) anti worked , looks like becoming less effective solutions \? thanks kiong beng kee dept information systems computer science national university singapore lower kent ridge road , singapore 0511
picl25 fsphy1 physics fsu edu \( picl account 25 \) subject soon baby questions organization florida state university school higher thought news software vax vms vnews 1 4 b1 reply picl25 fsphy1 physics fsu edu distribution lines 37 article world std com , world std com \( bob \) writes 're first baby , questions dont seem able get answered satisfaction reguarding baby boy , medical pros cons \? 've heard parents' , truly best research advantages stated included probably prevention penile cancer , \( , interestingly , occurs mostly men whose personal hygiene exceptionally poor \) , simplicity personal hygiene , prevention urinary tract infections , prevention foreskin , disadvantages include infection procedure , pain , etc apologize trying pull top head post discovered research paper topic research class nursing school really decision parents parents use reasoning look like daddy like friends justification nothing wrong sure want , since rather difficult male , although major surgical procedure exists pregnant woman sitting tub water \? 've heard stories infection , etc water broken \? long membranes broken problems pregnancy , ok sit tub water however , would recommend using home ! nearly impossible guarantee safety public hot nice warm bath relaxing , especially back killing ! would possibly advisable avoid bubble bath soap , esp prone yeast infection hope tips help elisa picl25 fsphy1 physics fsu edu
ron roth rose com \( ron roth \) subject kidney stones x gated usenet rosemail gateway \( v1 70 \) organization rose media inc , toronto , ontario lines 52 banschbach vms ocom okstate edu \( marty banschbach \) writes b medicine , probalby never , practiced way b always use conventional wisdom good example b kidney stones conventional wisdom \( clinical trails b done come effective prevention \) , restricitng b intake calcium oxalates best way prevent kidney stones b forming clinical trials focused drugs ultrasonic blasts b breakdown stone formed recent new england j b medicine article , know conventional wisdom wrong , b increasing calcium intake better preventing stone formation b restricting calcium intake b marty b marty , personally would n't quick take nejm article kidney stones gospel first , would want know sponsored study seen many nutrition bulletins years local newspapers , magazines , tv guide , disclaimers bottom informing us great health news brought us compliments dairy industries course numerous interest groups thrive financially media hype created supposedly enormous benefits increasing one 's calcium intake secondly , kidney stones test subjects involved project analysed chemical composition \? study n't say , claimed kidney stones large ly calcium perhaps wo n't long another study comes exact opposite findings curious phenomenon researchers oftentimes plain wrong would n't first time sodium magnesium calcium phosphorus ratios , opinion , still reliable indicators cause , treatment , prevention kidney stones , one , continue recommend logical changes one 's diet supplementation counteract prevent kidney stones either type definitely wo n't include increase calcium stones identified calcium type people 's chemical analysis confirms would benefit phosphorus raising approach instead ! ron roth internet rn rose com rosenet ron roth stone ground better stone body rosereader 2 10 p003228 entered rosemail 2 10 usenet rose media hamilton \( 416 \) 575 5363
doyle pitt edu \( howard r doyle \) subject umbilical hernia article blue organization university pittsburgh lines 21 article 1993apr27 shannon ee wits ac za gary concave cs wits ac za \( gary taylor \) writes could anyone give information umbilical hernias patient weight protruding hernia surgery may risky due obesity remedies could try \? unless patient short life expectancy , possible complications hernia n't repaired far outweigh risks surgery risks surgery , anyway , minimal unless exceedingly large , hernias fixed local anesthesia n't forget hernias one leading causes small bowel obstruction smaller hernia , higher chances loop bowel become incarcerated howard doyle doyle pitt edu
subject candida \( yeast \) bloom , fact fiction pchurch swell actrix gen nz \( pat churchill \) organization actrix networks lines 17 currently hay fever attack certainly never reads usenet , let alone sci med , said quite spontaneously lot mushrooms lawn moment sure 's problem \? well , knows \? maybe 's bread bake \? reading learned , semi learned , possibly ignorant downright ludicrous stuff thread , ready believe anything \) gets worse , maybe cook floggings continue morale improves pchurch swell actrix gen nz pat churchill , wellington new zealand
kmldorf utdallas edu \( george kimeldorf \) subject opinions allergy \( hay fever \) shots \? nntp posting host heath utdallas edu organization univ texas dallas lines 20 article 1993apr22 midway uchicago edu jacquier uchicago edu \( eric jacquier \) writes interested trying \( \? \) method hay fever state affairs went doctor paid 85 10 minute interview 3 scratches , leading diagnostic allergic \( june timothy \) grass believe looks like 2 shots per week 6 months followed 1 shot per month shot costs 20 talking soaring costs health care system , would call racket talking rare , garbage grows behind doctor 's office apart issue , somewhat disappointed find keep getting shots forever right \? thanks information go public library get february , 1988 issue consumer reports article allergy shots begins page 96 article must reading anyone contemplating allergy shots
kmldorf utdallas edu \( george kimeldorf \) subject sinus surgery septoplasty nntp posting host heath utdallas edu organization univ texas dallas lines 14 article netcom com badboy netcom com \( jay keller \) writes \( 've already heard couple said n't really help \) moderately severe asthmatic ent doc says large percentage see relief asthma sinus surgery also said unheard migraines go away sinusitis relieved ent also tell procedure may remove soles feet improve sex life \?
rdd uts ipp garching mpg de \( reinhard drube \) subject allergic reactions laser printers \? \? organization rechenzentrum der max planck garching lines 10 hello , anyone know allergic reactions caused developer toner laser printers \? chemical stuff involved \? thanks advance ! reinhard email rdd ipp garching mpg de
wpi wpi edu \( khalsa \) subject strain gage applications vivo organization worcester polytechnic institute lines 27 distribution inet nntp posting host wpi wpi edu article 1993apr28 organpipe uug arizona edu ame 0123 bigdog engr arizona edu \( terrance j dishongh \) writes greeting starting work project trying make strain gages bond bone vivo period several months currently using back gages , tried bonding gages bone apart two application methods n't seem much else literature engineering background medical biological would interest ideas bone growth surface cortical bone thanks help advance terrance j dishongh ame 0123 bigdog engr arizona edu terrance , good article entitled long term vivo bone strain measurement device , journal investigative surgery 1989 2 \( 2 \) 195 206 ja fp think find others searching medline khalsa , ms , dc , post doc research fellow u mass med school
hq ileaf com \( john \) subject feverfew migraines nntp posting host organization interleaf , inc lines 22 article exodus eng sun com brenda eng sun com \( brenda bowden \) writes anyone know studies \? experience feverfew \? i'm skeptical , open trying find feverfew , much would take prevent migraines \( good idea , \) \? known risks side effects feverfew \? thanks advance info ! brenda 've tried , one friend mine known side effects risks n't seem work us , several studies suggested work many people , think 's worth try find capsule form health food stores six capsules day recommended , remember correctly also prepared tea good luck , john
randy vos stratus com subject urine analysis organization stratus computer , marlboro lines 36 nntp posting host m72 eng stratus com someone please help searching find \( many others may \) absolute removing detectable traces marijuana persons body chemical natural substance ingested added urine make undetectable urine analysis substances found know information , please email directly thank kindly support , randy
noring netcom com \( jon noring \) subject sinus surgery septoplasty organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 45 article kmldorf utdallas edu \( george kimeldorf \) writes article badboy netcom com \( jay keller \) writes \( 've already heard couple said n't really help \) moderately severe asthmatic ent doc says large percentage see relief asthma sinus surgery also said unheard migraines go away sinusitis relieved ent also tell procedure may remove soles feet improve sex life \? actually , severe headaches due stopped sinuses \( plugged ostia \) possible , sinus surgery ostia normal 2 mm 10 mm relieve non surgical ways , however , keep ostia open \( however , individuals , ostia naturally small \) , dr ivker 's book talks underlying cause chronic sinusitis cured kind sinus surgery , though asthma , 's little controversial dr ivker , book , sinus survival , \( says 's proven \) , many cases asthma triggered chronic sinusitis due excessive \( \) sinuses 's many patients 've found relief asthma chronic sinusitis reduced eliminated clinical proof , compelling anecdotal information speculation sinus surgery , first get book discusses surgery , well good non surgical treatment program chronic sinusitis jon noring charter member infj club 're dying know infj means , brave , e mail , 'll send info jon noring noring netcom com jkn international ip 192 100 81 100 fred's gourmet chocolate 1312 carlton place phone \( 510 \) 294 8153 chips world 's best ! livermore , ca 94550 v mail \( 510 \) 417 4101 \? read alt psychology personality ! 's action
doyle pitt edu \( howard r doyle \) subject 's origin stat \? organization pittsburgh transplant institute lines 16 article 1993apr28 zeus calpoly edu dfield flute calpoly edu \( infospunj \( dan field \) \) writes term stat used medicine , commonly used indicator something urgent anyone know came \? dictionary helpful word \( latin , think \) , meaning immediately howard doyle doyle pitt edu
hartman informix com \( robert hartman \) subject info colonics purification \? organization informix software , inc lines 41 article minerva cis yale edu wiesel elisha yale edu \( elisha wiesel \) writes recently 've come upon body literature promotes colon cleansing vital aid preventive medicine nutrition doubt sci med folks getting i'm rather certain information got medical literature accepted academic scientific journals , righteous among doubt jump also , insofar n't conform accepted medical presumption n't matter eat , think gi tract black box nothing ever goes wrong \( except maybe cancer ulcers \) , righteous doubt jump 'll ones call doctor raving quack , even though , like linus , lucid robust well nineties nevermind n't charge equipment supplies , since 're doubt approved fda course , fda approval md pharmaceutical company charge whatever get safe effective treatments nevermind either unfortunately , dared step sacred turf net medical discussion without without understanding righteous among make certain suitably denounced dismissing fool maybe somebody without huge chip shoulder send reasonable responses e mail 1 2 \) 1 2 \( oh yes , point years ago md thriving practice wealthy part silicon valley recommended take treatments clear skin condition \( office , might add \) although i'm sure 's conclusive , sure unusual prescription ! r
banschbach vms ocom okstate edu subject kidney stones organization osu college osteopathic medicine lines 58 nntp posting host vms ocom okstate edu article 1993apr29 ux1 cts eiu edu , cfaks ux1 cts eiu edu \( alice sanders \) writes student told today diagnosed kidney stones , one kidney , kidney infection upset condition misdiagnosed since last fall , ill time recent doctor 's appointment parents' hmo clinic , said forty ! x rays made kidney asked many x rays made , told technician need see area different views , says five x rays made angle could n't help feeling something must wrong procedure something pre med student feels could understood happening someone would explained nobody would , got worried also , told 300 ! surgery patients ahead cannot surgery august april supposed rest lot drink fluids go classes wonders given medicine plans call back doctor 's office clinic try get answers questions told would also write sci med see could find many x rays whether seems k wait line 3 months surgery something like whether looking elsewhere care plan get second opinion , pass info never hurts get information one source e mail post thanks alice opinion \( 's worth \) 40 x rays way many set number dental x rays chest x rays one given period time environmental factors cause cancer humans , radiation one potent \( splits dna causes free radical formation tissue cells \) \( like used seeing fetus uterus \) shown extremely good picking tumors prostate kidney tissue may dense ultrasound work kidney stones \( care comment \? \) stones pass \( 's painful process \) unlike , n't think many drugs help dissolve kidney stone \( probably calcium oxalate \) vitamin c magnesium worked rabbits remove calcium plaques wall idea diet change supplementation could speed process kidney stone passage \( i'm pretty confident diet change supplementation prevent \) surgery contemplated , stone must kidney second opinion good idea better \( less damaging \) ways break stone 's logged within kidney \( sonic blasts \) hmo 's notorious conservative care long waits treatments condolences friend marty b
stephen mont cs missouri edu \( stephen montgomery smith \) subject earwax keywords earwax organization university missouri lines 6 healthiest way deal earwax \? one leave ear mess , clean every often \? cleaning damage \? tubes ear might get blocked \? stephen
rind enterprise bih harvard edu \( david rind \) subject persistent vs chronic organization beth israel hospital , harvard medical school , boston mass , usa lines 17 nntp posting host enterprise bih harvard edu article enea1 enea apple com enea1 applelink apple com \( horace enea \) writes anyone tell difference persistent disease chronic one \? example , persistent hepatitis vs chronic hepatitis n't think general distinction rather , two classes chronic hepatitis chronic active hepatitis chronic persistent hepatitis ca n't think disease term persistent used preference chronic much two terms chronic active chronic persistent sound fuzzy , actual distinction two conditions often fairly fuzzy well david rind rind enterprise bih harvard edu
physik uni kl de \( thomas kettenring \) subject old sermon \( krillean photography \) organization fb physik , universitaet kaiserslautern , germany lines 43 article c65oil 436 vuse vanderbilt edu , alex vuse vanderbilt edu \( alexander p zijdenbos \) writes flame reading posts kirlian \( whatever spelling \) photography could n't help slightly disgusted narrow minded , know , n't believe ca n't see measure attitude many people neither real believer , disbeliever comes called paranormal stuff far i'm concerned , likely existence , instance , god , seems quite accepted societies without scientific basis convinced serious mistake close mind something , anything , simply n't fit current frame reference history shows many great people , great scientists , people kept open mind ridiculed sceptics especially usa grateful , columbus drop edge earth flame , end sermon \) know sermon posted roughly every month different persons , n't make better get idea skeptics closed minded \? n't consider possibility came conclusions proper methods \? besides , one come conclusion without closing one 's mind possibilities n't agree person , please ask thinks like , instead insulting perhaps 's right follow advice , open minded n't post bit evidence claims , 'll complain 's always neither real believer , disbeliever types narrow judge others without knowing motives thomas kettenring , 3 dan , kaiserslautern , germany n't even know planet native inhabitants government n't tell
oasys dt navy mil \( brenda peters \) subject allergic reactions laser printers \? \? reply oasys dt navy mil \( brenda peters \) organization carderock division , nswc , bethesda , md lines 34 sci med , rdd uts ipp garching mpg de \( reinhard drube \) writes hello , anyone know allergic reactions caused developer toner laser printers \? chemical stuff involved \? thanks advance ! reinhard email rdd ipp garching mpg de ever ! ! ! ! ! ! 2 years health problems cleared w shots , knowing , went tested actually better tested 2 years ago putting 2 2 together , realized started back laser printer came office kept track usage , hi use days , worse got better weekends laser printer gone , i'm 100 better ! ! ! whether toner dust chemicals , dont know \( highly allergic dust \) , definitely laser printer brenda peters carderock div , nswc , david taylor model basin bethesda , md 20084 e mail cape dt navy mil oasys dt navy mil
lmtra uts amdahl com \( leon traister \) subject vitamin b6 doses organization amdahl corporation , sunnyvale ca lines 16 forgive , day read newsgroup physician 's posting uses vitamin b6 ca n't seem locate article , recall mention safe limits looked balanced 100 time release formulation 's noted 100 mg b6 thousands times rda safe \? ! \? also condition b6 \? mail would fine n't want clog net thanks , leon traister \( lmtra uts amdahl com \)
spl pitstop ucsd edu \( steve lamont \) subject krillean photography organization university calif , san diego microscopy imaging resource lines 20 nntp posting host pitstop ucsd edu article news claremont edu ebrandt jarthur claremont edu \( eli brandt \) writes article mmeyer m2 dseg ti com mmeyer m2 dseg ti com \( mark meyer \) writes besides , kirilian photography actually photography friend 's two year old son perhaps meant kirlian \? think typo photography , practice taking pictures either finns russians , depending one asks think lose sci image processing group thread , folks \? thanks bunches spl steve lamont , sciviguy \( 619 \) 534 7968 spl szechuan ucsd edu san diego microscopy imaging resource uc san diego la jolla , ca 92093 0608 car car , bumper strip seen 805
melton sps mot com \( henry melton \) subject chromium dietary weight loss summary wife needs net wisdom organization sps lines 12 nntp posting host 222 1 248 94 wife requested poll usenet see known use chromium weight control diet seen multiple products advertising would like kind real information first impulse yuck ! metal ! zero data know \? henry melton melton sps mot com
festival ed ac uk \( g clark \) subject centi milli pedes lines 19 msnyder nmt edu \( rebecca snyder \) writes anyone know posionous centipedes millipedes \? someone bitten , soon would medical treatment needed , would liable happen person \? \( clarification bitten one , house seems infested , want know 'just \) rebecca millipedes , understand , vegetarian , therefore almost certainly bite poisonous centipedes , although n't absolute knowledge , would tend think 're danger anything concerted assault several million g
ttrusk mcw edu \( thomas trusk \) subject krillean photography reply ttrusk mcw edu organization medical college wisconsin \( milwaukee , wi \) lines 24 nntp posting host pixel mcw edu medical college wisconsin article efi com efi com \( alan morgan \) writes article c65oil 436 vuse vanderbilt edu alex vuse vanderbilt edu \( alexander p zijdenbos \) writes neither real believer , disbeliever comes called paranormal stuff far i'm concerned , likely existence , instance , god , seems quite accepted societies without scientific basis bad example i'm atheist flame , abuse , want start another thread \( , , supposed image processing \) , say 're atheist suggest proof god politically correct skeptic , better go agnostic , like ! \) dr thomas trusk dept cellular biology anatomy email ttrusk mcw edu medical college wisconsin milwaukee , wi \( 414 \) 257
uabdpo dpo uab edu ! gila005 \( stephen holland \) subject schatzki ring pvc 's organization gastroenterology univ alabama lines 48 article 1993apr27 betsy gsfc nasa gov , ohandley betsy gsfc nasa gov wrote summarized person schatzki 's ring \( membrane partially blocking \) \( difficulty swallowing \) doctor proposes dilation \( using inflatable balloon ring rubber hose push question balloon dilation safe , common , indicated \? sounds pretty invasive end summary yes , common safe procedure majority schatzki 's rings described x ray , however , due inflammation instead congenital schatzki 's ring occassionally cancer ring endoscopy see due , , need treatment ong term balloon dilation alternative cutting open chest cutting section , dilation invasive , considering alternative second issue summarized extra heartbeats past 3 4 years , symptomatic , young , \( 30 ish \) , thin good health \( recent normal \) , smoke , use drugs caffeine , etc i'm willing accept extra beats normal , n't want ignore might kind warning symptom number pvc 's seems increase throughout day , exercise \( something simple climbing stairs \) also , get sitting lying , tend get couple extra beats could possibly related problems \? seemed develop time i' expert heart problems , pvc 's common past personal experience , history build \( related heart , \) , pvc 's come go , months causing anxiety taking fluids seems help , seem worse summer remember slow heart rate allow pvc 's apparent , perhaps indication healthy cardiac system \( ask expert last point , especially \) good luck , hope n't die arrhythmias \( god , happy thought \) steve holland
banschbach vms ocom okstate edu subject info colonics purification \? lines 68 nntp posting host vms ocom okstate edu organization osu college osteopathic medicine article 1993apr28 informix com , hartman informix com \( robert hartman \) writes article minerva cis yale edu wiesel elisha yale edu \( elisha wiesel \) writes recently 've come upon body literature promotes colon cleansing vital aid preventive medicine nutrition doubt sci med folks getting i'm rather certain information got medical literature accepted academic scientific journals , righteous among doubt jump also , insofar n't conform accepted medical presumption n't matter eat , think gi tract black box nothing ever goes wrong \( except maybe cancer ulcers \) , righteous doubt jump 'll ones call doctor raving quack , even though , like linus , lucid robust well nineties nevermind n't charge equipment supplies , since 're doubt approved fda course , fda approval md pharmaceutical company charge whatever get safe effective treatments nevermind either unfortunately , dared step sacred turf net medical discussion without without understanding righteous among make certain suitably denounced dismissing fool maybe somebody without huge chip shoulder send reasonable responses e mail 1 2 \) 1 2 \( oh yes , point years ago md thriving practice wealthy part silicon valley recommended take treatments clear skin condition \( office , might add \) although i'm sure 's conclusive , sure unusual prescription ! bacteria gut important colonic way improve gut function person almost unique mix bacteria gut diet affects mix use antibiotics diet change much better way alter players gut colonic cross contamination real problem treatment since equipment always cleaned well patient treatments dental drills little concerned hiv infection 've picked dentist uses chemical instruments \( much safer \) full sterile technique also used like practiced \( mask , gloves worn disposed patients \) visit costs 15 dollars standard customary fee pay pocket much higher fees drive away patients think good reason someone subject colonic flush procedure little , benefit , subject hepatitis , , parasitic disease even hiv ask someone might resort kind treatment \? could gi distress \? could distress due pathogenic organism \? could get organism equipment cleaned properly patients \? really want take risk \? food thought marty b
uabdpo dpo uab edu ! gila005 \( stephen holland \) subject organization gastroenterology univ alabama lines 26 article 1993apr28 nuscc nus sg , nuscc nus sg \( kiong beng kee \) wrote wife first two months pregnancy son \( 3 months old \) , breast fed , symptoms skin specialist , merely prescribed various medicines \( one visit though trial error \) \) anti worked , looks like becoming less effective solutions \? thanks kiong beng kee dept information systems computer science national university singapore lower kent ridge road , singapore 0511 food products get breast milk cause allergies young since son allergic would best go bottle , rather eliminate foods mother 's diet pediatrician able give list foods avoid good luck , steve
chorley vms ocom okstate edu subject centi milli pedes organization osu college osteopathic medicine lines 24 nntp posting host vms ocom okstate edu article castle ed ac uk , festival ed ac uk \( g clark \) writes msnyder nmt edu \( rebecca snyder \) writes anyone know posionous centipedes millipedes \? someone bitten , soon would medical treatment needed , would liable happen person \? \( clarification bitten one , house seems infested , want know 'just \) rebecca millipedes , understand , vegetarian , therefore almost certainly bite poisonous centipedes , although n't absolute knowledge , would tend think 're danger anything concerted assault several million g sure think millipedes cause toxic reaction \( sting \? would assume dangerous merely basis , wasps vegetarian
mikeq freddy cna tek com \( mike quigley \) subject angry doctor \? distribution na organization tektronix , inc , redmond , lines 8 going doctor get minor surgery done doctor refuses 's \( still charges 50 ! \) go home problem involved digging pine needle buried tongue mike
jeffs sr hp com \( jeff silva \) subject help kidney stones organization hp sonoma county \( srsd mwtd mid \) lines 29 x newsreader tin version 1 1 9 pl6 pk115050 wvnvms wvnet edu wrote girlfriend pain kidney stones says medical insurance , cannot get removed question way treat , least mitigate effects \? help deeply appreciated \( advice , referral literature , etc \) thank , dave pk115050 wvnvms wvnet edu first , would consider severity pain stones several years ago , 's way could made without heavy duty doses morphine two week stay hospital told nothing could take would dissolve stones , best thing could drink lots water , hope pass , every time move little , pain excrutiating told doctor time pain comparable childbirth \( yes , male doctor , i'm sure women disagree \) 'd really like know truth , maybe women baby kidney stone could fill jeff silva \( 707 \) 577 jeffs sr hp com
backon vms huji ac il subject sinus surgery septoplasty distribution world organization hebrew university jerusalem lines 39 article da utdallas edu , kmldorf utdallas edu \( george kimeldorf \) writes article netcom com badboy netcom com \( jay keller \) writes \( 've already heard couple said n't really help \) moderately severe asthmatic ent doc says large percentage see relief asthma sinus surgery also said unheard migraines go away sinusitis relieved ent also tell procedure may remove soles feet improve sex life \? probably trying record partial nasal obstruction correlated number chronic disorders migraine , , asthma , ulcer , , lack \( \) \) riga rev neuro 1957 24 325 335 , cardiac symptoms jackson rt annals 1976 85 65 70 mh , v 1980 18 47 50 mh 1980 18 67 81 , fever , inadequate oral intake electrolyte imbalance fairbanks head neck surgery 1986 94 412 415 \) post inane comments would nice 'd run medline search topic say back 1966 's extensive literature 100 years may cardiology 've good working relationship colleagues ent josh backon vms huji ac il
lmtra uts amdahl com \( leon traister \) subject earwax keywords earwax organization amdahl corporation , sunnyvale ca lines 32 stephen mont cs missouri edu \( stephen montgomery smith \) writes healthiest way deal earwax \? one leave ear mess , clean every often \? cleaning damage \? tubes ear might get blocked \? assuming wax causing hearing loss , congestion popping ears , try cautious water bulb syringe , awkward oneself may work may even make things worse \( wife would disagree , successfully every six months \) case attempt anything q tips ! ! ! experience initially best handled ear nose throat person say initially , ent evaluate whether might success little instruction physician \( obviously , term \) posting based personal experience usual disclaimer best enemy good voltaire leon traister \( lmtra amdahl uts amdahl com \) c amdahl corporation \( 408 \) 737 1250 e ave 338 p box sunnyvale , ca
ame 0123 bigdog engr arizona edu \( terrance j dishongh \) subject strain gage applications vivo organization university arizona lines 14 greeting starting work project trying make strain gages bond bone vivo period several months currently using back gages , tried bonding gages bone apart two application methods n't seem much else literature engineering background medical biological would interest ideas bone growth surface cortical bone thanks help advance terrance j dishongh ame 0123 bigdog engr arizona edu
shell cs sfu ca \( barry shell \) subject great canadian scientists organization css , simon fraser university , burnaby , b c , canada lines 155 two years ago posted following planning write new book called great canadian scientists please forward nominations shell cs sfu ca rules person must canadian citizen n't born canada even live canada , must \( , dead \) canadian citizenship great canadian scientists 70 people nominated already listed end posting i'm quite sure constitute greatness , may gray area ideas criteria greatness , would pleased hear event , please nominate people even sure great would like big list possible please give name email address , phone number mail address , contact person n't know , give last known whereabouts also please give reason think person considered great canadian scientist list , choose six interesting ones depth individuals style tracy 's soul new machine dramatic technique rest great canadian scientists appear one paragraph ideas project , interested hear far , received 68 nominations follows first name last name famous sid , john catalytic rna \( nobel chem 89 \) frederick insulin \( nobel medicine \) davidson black stanley , robert discovered man james r bolton , joseph chemistry \? smith , steven math algebraic topology willard boyle , craig co inventor ccd gerard bull stanley , robert ballistics dennis , carlos first animal brian c conway , karen stephen cook , alberto np completeness , complexity \? , gerald biochem aspects physiol h calkin , neil j regular \( math \) p n palmer , bill chem , mosquito repellant h e anonymous mass spectroscopy , admin jack , jack math , operations research , hans wire insulation , light bulb ursula franklin , william physics materials j gray gray , tom nuclear physics , gray e w , craig array radar donald lyons , michael learning \( \) gerhard optical nobel 71 james electron microscope \( \) crawford , carlos ecology , prey david lyons , michael visual cortex \( nobel med \? \) kenneth dare , gary invented apl j jackson , matt elementary particle theory andre , prakash category theory , logic martin carbon 14 \( canadian amer \) irving , bob algebra , functional analysis george kell kell , dave hot water freezing e kellogg palmer , bill chem , mosquito repellant kenney wallace , anthony chemistry \? administration brian brader , mark c programming language michael l klein , massimo theoretical chemistry charles j krebs , carlos ecology , krebs effect k j , karen chemical g c laurence palmer , bill physics \? \? \? \? raymond lemieux smith , earl first synthesized glucose martin levine meunier , robert computer vision edward lowry computer programming marie meunier , robert de montreal colin macleod turner , steven nobel \( \? \) dna discovery \? marshall mcluhan clamen , stewart social sci , communications ben morrison willson , david aurora lawrence morley , murray plate remote sense farley abbott , john northern animal rights \? kevin , kelly genetics , cure herpes \? sir william lyons , michael medicine p j e , ethan important wilder , marie basis memory john denis meunier , robert computer vision anatol lloyd jones , david conflict theory , game theory howard sutherland , russell pulp chemistry hans , k psychology stress william stephenson wilkins , darin ww2 enigma code , wire photo boris , anthony raman spectroscopy david suzuki , darren science communication henry parker , wiley physical chemistry richard taylor manuel , john verified quark model david thompson eisler , michael mapped western canada green , christopher psychology memory bill , gordon theory \( math \) palmer , bill 's syndrome j wilson collier , john continental drift theory r h wright palmer , bill chem , mosquito repellant j l \( allen \) , vl baseline walter reactor \( amer \) list growing nicely 's amazing see much discovered canadians actually many born canada , became americans graduate school please note lot people nominated alexander graham bell feel really scottish american summer home canada know debatable , please n't nominate anyone fill question marks list , please drop line two years ago since , received grant science culture canada , division supply services canada research book since old posting book evolved educational book kids aged 9 14 \( though may change \) 40 two page spreads large graphic middle text graphic boxes around following subjects vital statistics photo scientist , personal statement scientist , narrative moments life scientist , 12 , want insert kind scientist , experiment appendix 100 200 scientists one paragraph n't quite make double spreads whole thing published cd rom video sound clips added looking cd rom publisher well text part may also available electronic highway developed canada well still looking publisher though penguin canada came close hope find one soon would like ask nominations , especially pure sciences physics , chemistry biology also criticisms list welcomed also women french canadian scientists needed hope posting get others nominate great canadian scientists , discuss great canadian scientist please respond shell sfu ca barry shell 604 876 quebec st vancouver , b c canada thanks responded already
king reasoning com \( dick king \) subject krillean photography nntp posting host drums reasoning com organization reasoning systems , inc , palo alto , ca lines 37 article c65oil 436 vuse vanderbilt edu alex vuse vanderbilt edu \( alexander p zijdenbos \) writes flame especially usa grateful , columbus drop edge earth \( enabled columbus indeed crank , manner think fact world round well known set sail also well known circumference 25k miles , could reach asia bo going west current technology would neither able carry enough supplies , get long enough stretch good sailing weather nobody thought would fall edge world instead , expected die sea columbus thought good reason circumference 16k miles , making trip practical unfortunately columbus , earth 's circumference indeed 25k miles fortunately columbus , stopping place right asia would circumference 16k miles source recent pbs series columbus \) flame , end sermon \) alex
news weeg uiowa edu \( john carey \) subject med school organization university iowa , iowa city , ia , usa lines 27 actually entering vet school next year , question relevant med students large amounts never strong point academically since major portion medical education anatomy , histology , pathology , , part mass memorization little concerned sure med students anyone suggest techniques type memorization \? reasonable success memory tricks like thinking little stories associate unrelated things never applied large amounts data anyone luck particular books , memory systems , cheap software \? suggest helpful organizational techniques \? older student returned school year , organization \( another one weak points \) major help success please learn material conceptually problem , one strong points ca n't get around fact much medicine memorization thanks help
di \( \) subject epilepsy video games organization di informatica , universita' di lines 23 postings past alleged pathological \( esp neurological \) conditions induced playing video games \( e g nintendo \) apparently , reported several cases epilepsy , due flashing patterns strong attention \( young \) players one poster comp risks reported action british government quick search database reported following two published references 1 e j hart , nintendo epilepsy , new england j med , 322 \( 20 \) , 2 tk et al , dark warrior epilepsy , 1982 284 2 would appreciate someone could post \( e mail \) reference \( preferably published \) work subject pointer information possible technical tools \( \) reducing risks appreciated many thanks , , italy
iastate edu \( \) subject centi milli pedes organization iowa state university , ames ia lines 37 1993apr29 1 vms ocom okstate edu chorley vms ocom okstate edu writes article castle ed ac uk , festival ed ac uk \( g clark \) writes msnyder nmt edu \( rebecca snyder \) writes anyone know posionous centipedes millipedes \? someone bitten , soon would medical treatment needed , would liable happen person \? \( clarification bitten one , house seems infested , want know 'just \) rebecca millipedes , understand , vegetarian , therefore almost certainly bite poisonous centipedes , although n't absolute knowledge , would tend think 're danger anything concerted assault several million g sure think millipedes cause toxic reaction \( sting \? would assume dangerous merely basis , wasps vegetarian child remember picking getting rather painful sting , quickly subsided much less painful compared bee sting centipedes poison \( one front feet \) stun prey , single experience lot bite
wdh mitre org \( dale hall \) subject pregnency without sex \? summary none keywords none nntp posting host mitre org organization research computer facility , mitre corporation , bedford , distribution usa lines 10 article andrew cmu edu gabriel underwood gabe cmu edu writes heard great civil war story guy shot groin , bullet continues 's path , lodges abdomen female spectator lo behold legend goes , parents survived , married , raised child turned real son gun
organization arizona state university asuacad bitnet subject depression lines 9 believe depression dietary component depression also various chemical \( environmental \) components noticed became depressed various buildings , home air conditioning subsequent testing revealed allergic , mold commonly found air conditioners began taking antigens , problem disappeared bruce l
mcovingt aisun4 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) subject allergic reactions laser printers \? \? nntp posting host aisun4 ai uga edu organization ai programs , university georgia , athens lines 8 laser printers often emit ozone \( smells sort like \) adequate ventilation recommended michael covington , associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu university georgia phone 706 542 0358 athens , georgia 30602 7415 u amateur radio n4tmi
mcovingt aisun4 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) subject help kidney stones nntp posting host aisun4 ai uga edu organization ai programs , university georgia , athens lines 16 article srgenprp sr hp com jeffs sr hp com \( jeff silva \) writes pk115050 wvnvms wvnet edu wrote move little , pain excrutiating told doctor time pain comparable childbirth \( yes , male doctor , i'm sure women disagree \) 'd really like know truth , maybe women baby kidney stone could fill one reason men learn breathing techniques , order able get pain reduction instantly , wherever michael covington , associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu university georgia phone 706 542 0358 athens , georgia 30602 7415 u amateur radio n4tmi
brian ucsd edu \( brian \) subject help kidney stones organization avant , ltd lines 12 nntp posting host ucsd edu recall bout kidney stones , n't medication anything except relieve pain either pass , broken sound , extracted surgically , x ray tech happened mention 'd kidney stones children , childbirth hurt less worked , although nearly got arrested way home police car parked outside er brian
banschbach vms ocom okstate edu subject depression lines 220 nntp posting host vms ocom okstate edu organization osu college osteopathic medicine md 's newsgroup riding butt pretty good \( maybe cases good reason \) post depression , i'm laying 'll continue post think knowledge could useful read post , know i'm coming post future article netnews upenn edu , mail sas upenn edu \( lida \) writes family member mine suffering severe depression brought well mental break treated success treatments provided psychiatrist satisfactory someone suggested contacting nutritionist discuss alternative treatment since sensitive medication , think good suggestion n't know begin anyone suggest philly area nutritionist , else literature read , 'd appreciate lida , emphasize situation wife suffered bouts depression 's brought breast cancer mine rebound stress reaction modified radical chemotherapy lida , used knowledge nutrition get six months chemotherapy \( approval oncologist \) severe depression set months stopped , tried use supplements bring cured pms using supplements really thought knew enough role diet depression take care depression well n't work put prozac oncologist two winters ago \( three years wife 's breast cancer \) got hit severe depression \( pretty typical one reason many marriages break breast cancer another \) tried take care several months supplementation n't work ended putting prozac going give list several studies done using b6 , niacin , b12 cure depression i'm going would flying blind like lida , believe depression dietary component problem need know exactly problem use approach fix problem chemotherapy , knew exactly drugs going used exactly nutrients would affected thing pms flying blind literature used devise treatment program pretty good depression complicated really need nutritional scan diet analysis analysis bodies nutrient reserves every vitamin mineral \( except vitamin c \) , reserve rda designed give enough nutrient keep reserves full , designed keep emptied would cause clinical pathology stress increase need many vitamins minerals reserves become important lida , without permission , i'm going use post conduit try explain readers group sci med i'm coming taught course human nutrition one osteopathic medical schools ten years 've written textbook none available teach rehash biochemistry preach nutrient reserves \( yes lectures course referred students sermons \) cover carbohydrates proteins proteins ii energy balance evaluation nutritional status , clinical perspective evaluation nutritional status ii , evaluation nutritional biochemical perspective status iii , homework assignment using nutritionist iv diet fitness analysis software program weight control food facts age related change nutrient requirements food additives , cancer drug nutrient interactions mineral water balance sodium , potassium chloride calcium , magnesium phosphorus iron zinc copper trace minerals vitamin vitamin e vitamins k vitamin c niacin acids b12 nutrient factors nutrition nutrition every three years spend entire summer reviewing medical literature find material use nutrition textbook last summer 1991 read everything find sit rewrite lecture bound three separate books 217 , 237 122 pages opposite page written text \( write \) 've pulled figures , tables graphs various copyrighted sources since material used educational purposes , get around copyright laws \( far \) send material newsgroup readers \( 've asked \) process trying get grant setup nutrition assessment lab last peice nutrition puzzle need make education program complete lab let measure nutrient reserve almost vitamins minerals known required humans mayo clinic already uses similiar lab design supplement programs cancer patients cancer treatment centers america , private profit organization hospitals illinois oklahoma \( tulsa \) also operates nutritional assessment clinical lab also believe clinic california similiar lab setup physicians reading post , would suggest get new clinical nutrition textbook published \( feb \) using manual nutritional \( little brown series book \) supplemental text course geared residency training two 's written new clinical nutrition textbook geared towards medical student education good job covering lab tests run assess patient 's nutritional status let quote sentences preface new text called nutrition specialists reality , , happened profess knowledge nutrition related field practice unfortunately , two thirds medical schools united states require formal instruction nutrition times medical practice changed half leading causes death country nutrition related monograph accomplish following two objectives \( 1 \) complement medical training emphasizing relevance nutrition medical practice \( 2 \) awareness nutrition medical speciality important disease prevention treatment diseases essentially every organ system roland l weinsier , md , lida , advise tell family members try find physician understanding role vitamins minerals \( yes even magnesium may play role depression \) play depression could get nutritional profile run often time women suffer depression lot hormonal changes occuring ones occur pms nutritionist may also able help long ago poster mentioned nutritionist diagnosed deficiency based red cell test \( specific test reserve \) clinical labs run test advised try make sure lab test certified also lot hair nail analysis labs setup trace mineral analysis labs regulated checks labs using certified standards , also water lead analysis , showed pretty shoddy testing going anyone else finds someone run speciality nutrition tests , make sure using lab certified \( clinical laboratory improvement act \) diet analysis may helpful since many nutrient reserves shown correlate fairly well dietary intake monitored food logging software analysis \( nutritionist iv software programs \) still half nutrients required humans show good correlation apparent dietary intake reserve status nutritional assessment clinical labs operation u physicians trained use nutritional profile labs provide devise treatment approach uses diet changes supplementation , anti depressants probably continue best approach depression martin banschbach , ph professor biochemistry chairman department biochemistry microbiology osu college osteopathic medicine without discourse , remembering , without remembering , learning , without learning , ignorance
hbloom moose uvm edu \( heather \) subject earwax organization university vermont division emba computer facility lines 20 hi stephen ear wax healthy way help prevent ear infections , preventing barrier also antibiotic properties much block external canal \( hole outside ear \) cause hearing problems simple , safe , remove excess wax , physician 's office take syringe \( needles ! \) fill 50 warm water \( cold cause fainting \) 50 otc hydrogen peroxide point ear towards ceiling \( 45 degrees \) insert tip syringe \( helps someone else ! \) firmly solution depending size syringe wax , could take several place bowl ear catch water , much \) buy syringe special tip local pharmacy , use whatever may wax old , harder , darker try adding drops olive oil ear shower wax couple days , try also safe point ear shower head , allow water good luck heather
banschbach vms ocom okstate edu subject kidney stones lines 68 nntp posting host vms ocom okstate edu organization osu college osteopathic medicine article 1993apr28 rose com , ron roth rose com \( ron roth \) writes banschbach vms ocom okstate edu \( marty banschbach \) writes b medicine , probalby never , practiced way b always use conventional wisdom good example b kidney stones conventional wisdom \( clinical trails b done come effective prevention \) , restricitng b intake calcium oxalates best way prevent kidney stones b forming clinical trials focused drugs ultrasonic blasts b breakdown stone formed recent new england j b medicine article , know conventional wisdom wrong , b increasing calcium intake better preventing stone formation b restricting calcium intake b marty b marty , personally would n't quick take nejm article kidney stones gospel first , would want know sponsored study seen many nutrition bulletins years local newspapers , magazines , tv guide , disclaimers bottom informing us great health news brought us compliments dairy industries course numerous interest groups thrive financially media hype created supposedly enormous benefits increasing one 's calcium intake secondly , kidney stones test subjects involved project analysed chemical composition \? study n't say , claimed kidney stones large ly calcium perhaps wo n't long another study comes exact opposite findings curious phenomenon researchers oftentimes plain wrong would n't first time sodium magnesium calcium phosphorus ratios , opinion , still reliable indicators cause , treatment , prevention kidney stones , one , continue recommend logical changes one 's diet supplementation counteract prevent kidney stones either type definitely wo n't include increase calcium stones identified calcium type people 's chemical analysis confirms would benefit phosphorus raising approach instead ! ron roth ron , absolutely right kidney stones calcium calcium stones calcium oxalate vast majority calcium oxalate calcium one piece puzzle cited nejm article way pointing physicians group conventional wisdom used medicine , always probably always one uses conventional wisdom , chance wrong long error going cause lot damage , 's big deal \( call physician gives anti fungals sinus suffers gi distress patients quack \? \) kidney stone problem 'd want mineral profile run clinical chemistry lab balance much important dietary intake calcium know use electrical conductance technique measure mineral balance body know n't think serum levels minerals useful \( agree \) get good nutritional assessment lab setup actually measure tissue reserve minerals , 'd like collaborative study see technique compares mine marty b
tung enet dec com subject opinions allergy \( hay fever \) shots \? reply tung enet dec com \( \) organization digital equipment corporation lines 9 started taking allergy shots month ago still wondering getting friend mine told body change every 7 years \( whatever means \) n't need antibody building allergy shots make sense anyone \? btw , someone summarize consumer report february , 1988 article \?
mou stanford edu \( alex mou \) subject cure dry skin \? organization stanford university lines 17 distribution world nntp posting host stanford edu hi , skin dry general serious part located knees skin looks like segmented segmentation actually happens beneath skin would like know cure supermarkets pharmacies , quite lot dry skins , chose \? thanks advance hints reply email preferred alex
turpin cs utexas edu \( russell turpin \) subject centi milli pedes organization cs dept , university texas austin lines 16 nntp posting host saltillo cs utexas edu article 1993apr28 nmt edu msnyder nmt edu \( rebecca snyder \) writes anyone know posionous centipedes millipedes \? 's around \( austin \) sting centipedes question rebecca snyder asks much like asking snakes \? one either wants ask snake \? point reference many different species snake similarly , many different species \( different families millipedes two pairs legs per body segment , centipedes one pair \) sorry information useful russell
roxannen cruzio santa cruz ca us subject sumatripton \( spelling \? \) keywords migraine reply roxannen cruzio santa cruz ca us lines 19 recently heard testing new migraine drug called sumatripton \( idea actual spelling \) supposedly utilizes chemical trips neuro transmitters mother regular migraines nothing seems help anyone know anything new drug \? testing anywhere near approval \? seem working \? information would help please feel free e mail rather take bandwidth prefer thanks advance , roxannen cruzio santa cruz ca us virtue relative term
enet dec com \( laurie \) subject urine analysis organization digital equipment corporation lines 29 nntp posting host roll article athena cs uga edu , mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) writes article transfer stratus com randy vos stratus com writes someone please help searching find \( many others may \) absolute removing detectable traces marijuana persons body chemical natural substance ingested added urine make undetectable urine analysis substances found could never go near stuff ! \) 's always old brother works dialysis clinic interviewing candidates technician job \( mainly electronics tech \) , urine screen part interview bathroom across hall lab one candidate managed switch urine sample one grabbed lab \( one time \) inner city dialysis patients quite medical problems , immediately obvious happened brother considered telling candidate , i'm sorry ill need medical attention immediately offered another well monitored chance declined
pixar com \( mark \) subject krillean photography nntp posting host pixar com organization pixar point richmond , california lines 35 alex vuse vanderbilt edu \( alexander p zijdenbos \) writes flame reading posts kirlian \( whatever spelling \) photography could n't help slightly disgusted narrow minded , know , n't believe ca n't see measure attitude many people neither real believer , disbeliever comes called paranormal stuff far i'm concerned , likely existence , instance , god , seems quite accepted societies without scientific basis accepted \? people think digital watches real good idea \? 60 channels television 10x better 6 channels television \? convinced serious mistake close mind something , anything , simply n't fit current frame reference history shows many great people , great scientists , people kept open mind ridiculed sceptics 're right keep open mind following 1 donuts 2 cannibalism good way get extra protein diet 3 belief , god parking meters mark servant ! oh ! never become road pizza ! quarters , nay even , spent buy time park eternal parking lot !
twain carson u washington edu \( barbara \) subject help kidney stones organization university washington , seattle lines 13 nntp posting host carson u washington edu article srgenprp sr hp com jeffs sr hp com \( jeff silva \) writes pk115050 wvnvms wvnet edu wrote move little , pain excrutiating told doctor time pain comparable childbirth \( yes , male doctor , i'm sure women disagree \) 'd really like know truth , maybe women baby kidney stone could fill 've neither baby kidney stone , according aunt , plenty , kidney stone worse barbara
banschbach vms ocom okstate edu subject chromium dietary weight loss organization osu college osteopathic medicine lines 126 nntp posting host vms ocom okstate edu article 1993apr29 newsgate sps mot com , melton sps mot com \( henry melton \) writes wife requested poll usenet see known use chromium weight control diet seen multiple products advertising would like kind real information first impulse yuck ! metal ! zero data know \? henry melton 'll tell know chromium , want get things chest got blasted e mail kidney stone posts kidney stones primarily caused diet , heart disease cancer give dietary advise , intended encourage people reading news group \( sci med nutrition posting \) avoid seeing doctor nothing truth kidney stones caused tumors possibility ruled , diet good way preventing thing heart disease cancer , suspect may problem one diseases , n't use i'm going tell read book avoid going doctor go hopefully find doctor knows enough nutrition help change risk factors diseases part treatment program \( odds 's i'm \) wife detected lump breast n't say , n't worry vitamin e take care breast lump worked physician , plan simple 's \( \) fine , maybe diet change supplementation prevent breast lumps occuring let tell right , tried diet supplementation another lump returns , get butt doctor 's office fast little feet carry \( better yet , mammography done regular basis , wife kept putting 's , told needed one done \) even scheduled one , n't show \( busy running operating room biggest hospital tulsa \) one thing , nutritionist group uses high dose vitamins minerals treat kinds disease absolutely doubt mind vitamins minerals drug actions body talk flying blind , man really blind treatment drug could ever used vitamins minerals used i'm saying stuff could n't right money , may well approach nutrition lot like weinsier morgan , two 's wrote new clinical nutrition textbook push nutrient reserves lab tests needed measure reserves supplementation diet changes get reserves built let handle stress 's i'm coming folks blast away want , i'm going change put killfile want , really n't care i'm averaging 8 10 e mail messages day people think 've got something important say i'm also getting hit axe grind 's life chromium one trace elements limited \( important \) role body used form glucose tolerance factor \( gtf \) gtf made chromium , \( niacin \) , glycine , chromium niacin needed diet form gtf foods already gtf \( liver , brewers nutritional yeast , black pepper \) chromium gtf , pretty good absorption seen \( 20 \) simply present mineral mineral \( chromium picolinate \) 's absorption much lower \( 1 2 , lowest minerals \) 've posting misc fitness chromium come several times fat burner chromium among least toxic minerals could really load really harm would n't though adequate safe range chromium 50 per day average american getting per day diet chromium levels decrease age many believe adult onset diabetes primarily chromium deficiency cite several studies done glucose tolerance type ii diabetes i'm going positive one , also seems negative one well i'm convinced problem yeast \( gtf \) used , good results obtained chromium used results usually negative addition type ii diabetes , examined cardiovascular disease glucoma , mixed results far cardiovascular disease concerned since high blood glucose level lead cardiovascular disease , possible link chromium n't surprising glucoma little interesting muscle eye focusing activity primarily insulin responsive glucose driven metabolic function eye focusing activity impaired \( lack glucose due poor insulin response \) , pressure believed elevated fairly large study 400 pts , one consistent finding low rbc chromium j coll nutr 10 \( 5 \) 536 , \( 1991 \) one preliminary study prompt people go start popping chromium supplements one thing , every older person going low rbc chromium unless taking chromium \( yeast \) since glucoma often found older people , 's surprising chromium low rbc 's chromium supplementation could reverse glucoma , would prompt attention suspect clinical trail check possible chromium link glucoma could find body chromium pool size either rbc chromium test hair analysis clinical labs going run rbc chromium plenty labs hair nail analysis , would n't use much funny business going unregulated labs right 's weinsier morgan , advise chromium consider chromium one minerals reliable clinical test available \( n't like hair nail analysis labs either , also recognize rbc chromium primarily research test routinely available clinical chemistry labs \) change labs run rbc , suggest \? make diagnosis chromium deficiency based documented clinical response chromium \( run glucose tolerance test chromium supplementation \) make diagnosis , put patient orally day yeast per day 's advise \? n't take chromium supplements try loose weight \( work way \) want take exercise , would great include yeast part diet \( americans getting enough chromium diet \) poor glucose tolerance , ask doctor check chromium status says , world talking , say , please get copy weinsier morgan 's new clinical nutrition textbook say patients present poor glucose tolerance ca n't , 'll find doctor , thank much marty b
jeffs sr hp com \( jeff silva \) subject help kidney stones organization hp sonoma county \( srsd mwtd mid \) lines 25 x newsreader tin version 1 1 9 pl6 michael covington \( mcovingt aisun4 ai uga edu \) wrote article srgenprp sr hp com jeffs sr hp com \( jeff silva \) writes pk115050 wvnvms wvnet edu wrote move little , pain excrutiating told doctor time pain comparable childbirth \( yes , male doctor , i'm sure women disagree \) 'd really like know truth , maybe women baby kidney stone could fill one reason men learn breathing techniques , order able get pain reduction instantly , wherever michael covington , associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu university georgia phone 706 542 0358 athens , georgia 30602 7415 u amateur radio n4tmi would pretty difficult practice hee hee 's guts though jeff silva jeffs sr hp com
alex vuse vanderbilt edu \( alexander p zijdenbos \) subject krillean photography nntp posting host organization vanderbilt university school engineering , nashville , tn , usa lines 16 bandwidth gets wasted apologize flame first , distributed message many newsgroups check article followed second , making argument clear enough reacted tone many anti kirlian posts , content right wrong , found arguments set arrogant words \( includes jokes \) , still think unwarranted , obviously , done alex
green island com \( robert greenstein \) subject iridology credence \? \? \? organization strawman incorporated lines 11 article dpw com dpw com \( janice price \) writes saw printed flyer stated person licensed n't believe state licenses robert greenstein fool cannot learn laughs , thinking green island com laughter shows superiority instead latent idiocy
meg arnold qm sri com \( meg arnold \) subject , type organization sri international lines 24 distribution world nntp posting host 128 18 35 50 looking statistics prevalence disorders treatable type disorders include facial , syndrome , , , aberrant facial nerve , facial , , , muscle , occupational \( e writers cramp , etc \) , , temporal joint disease realize many disorders listed \( muscle ! ! \) vaguely defined may encompass wide range particular disorders apologies list provided numbers , reliable ideas sources , even , actual figures \( source listed \) \? many thanks , meg meg arnold , business intelligence center , sri international 333 avenue , menlo park , ca 94025 phone \( 415 \) 859 internet meg arnold qm sri com
po cwru edu \( elisabeth davidson \) subject candida \( yeast \) bloom , fact fiction reply po cwru edu \( elisabeth davidson \) organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 44 nntp posting host thor ins cwru edu previous article , banschbach vms ocom okstate edu \( \) says least enlightened physicians practicing u 's really bad u medical schools n't cover nutrition , candida would viewed non disease many medical profession case western reserve med school teaches nutrition section well covering sections apply \( e b12 deficiency neuro cause , b12 deficiency cause \) , yet hold viewpoint mainstream medicine candida cause candidiasis , , already sick patients damaged immune systems like aids cancer patients , systemic candida infection think yeast connection bunch hooey well nutrition taught , anyway \? brief primer yeast yeast infections , commonly called , truely caused yeasts common organism responsible type infection candida albicans monilia actually yeast like fungus well , maybe i'm getting picky , always thought yeast one form fungus could exist , mold form many occur either yeasts molds , depending environment candida known reverse exists mold tissues exists yeast environment maybe call mold infection \? fungus infection \? maybe say caused mold like fungus martin banschbach , ph professor biochemistry chairman department biochemistry microbiology osu college osteopathic medicine 1111 west 17th st tulsa , ok 74107 're chairman biochem micro n't know yeast form fungus \? \( shudder \) maybe know , oversimplifying \?
twain carson u washington edu \( barbara \) subject schatzki ring pvc 's organization university washington , seattle lines 42 nntp posting host carson u washington edu article uabdpo dpo uab edu spam dom uab edu uabdpo dpo uab edu ! gila005 \( stephen holland \) writes article 1993apr27 betsy gsfc nasa gov , ohandley betsy gsfc nasa gov wrote second issue summarized extra heartbeats past 3 4 years , symptomatic , young , \( 30 ish \) , thin good health \( recent normal \) , smoke , use drugs caffeine , etc i'm willing accept extra beats normal , n't want ignore might kind warning symptom number pvc 's seems increase throughout day , exercise \( something simple climbing stairs \) also , get sitting lying , tend get couple extra beats could possibly related problems \? seemed develop time i' expert heart problems , pvc 's common past personal experience , history build \( related heart , \) , pvc 's come go , months causing anxiety taking fluids seems help , seem worse summer remember slow heart rate allow pvc 's apparent , perhaps indication healthy cardiac system \( ask expert last point , especially \) premature ventricular heartbeat , starting 1974 \( , way , extra heartbeats feel , described initially doctor , 're actually premature heartbeats would sometimes experience lapse one went long period time , making wonder heart ever going beat \) persistently eighteen years went low fat diet , stopped n't single episode almost two years know correlation imply causation fwiw barbara
facman ohsu edu \( marie e \) subject natural alternatives estrogen organization oregon health sciences university lines 2 nntp posting host facman need diet disease ideas gastrointestinal distress
facman ohsu edu \( marie e \) subject sciatica distribution usa organization oregon health sciences university lines 1 nntp posting host facman ideas relief sciatica please respond e mail
gabriel underwood gabe cmu edu subject pregnency without sex \? organization junior , math computer science , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 11 1993apr27 182155 23426 oswego oswego edu nntp posting host po2 andrew cmu edu reply 1993apr27 182155 23426 oswego oswego edu heard great civil war story guy shot groin , bullet continues 's path , lodges abdomen female spectator lo behold legend goes , parents survived , married , raised child death taxes math jazz hall bathroom graffiti gabriel underwood gabe cmu edu
daniel prince f129 n102 z1 calcom socal com \( daniel prince \) subject placebo effects lines 12 turpin cs utexas edu \( russell turpin \) rt administering treatment know subjects rt receive placebo test treatment seems many drugs severe side effects might possible keep doctors knowing getting true drug especially true drugs used mental illnesses cat smart well trained origin one world los angeles 310 372 \( 1 102 129 0 \)
menon boulder colorado edu \( ravi deantha menon \) subject angry doctor \? nntp posting host beagle colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder distribution na lines 44 brandon nlm nih gov \( brandon \) writes mryan stsci edu writes justified pissed doctor \? last saturday evening 6 year old son cut finger badly knife took local urgent general care clinic 5 50 pm clinic open till 6 00 pm receptionist went back told good stuff drs idiocy ok , much hate , posting even better dr idiot story 18th hour labor , pushing 4 5 hours exhausted ob decided go ob called \( sp \? \) asked help prep surgery , watching go couple , anes \( anus like refer \) said , well , duty \( still staring legs \) ob asked go call whomever duty ask long would take going take minutes , please stay even though duty anes went , supposedly call call anes couple minutes nurse came running tell ob anes left without even trying get ahold call time labor swore call anes took 20 minutes get come find , anes gone duty \( 2 minutes \) technically supposed stay hospital next call got good thing us \( especially \) critical emergency boy would love knock fellow 's places let pain little minutes run dr idiots , mechanic idiots , clerk idiots etc idiots time , fellow would like words deantha
athena mit edu \( lori k \) subject kidney stones organization massachusetts institute technology lines 12 distribution world nntp posting host 008 9 mit edu keywords kidney infection student kidney infection , ought antibiotics kidney infections left cause permanent damage kidneys hospitalized kidney infection ago sick article 1993apr29 ux1 cts eiu edu , cfaks ux1 cts eiu edu \( alice sanders \) writes also , told 300 ! surgery patients ahead cannot surgery august april supposed rest lot drink fluids go classes wonders given medicine plans
menon boulder colorado edu \( ravi deantha menon \) subject need info circumcision , medical cons pros nntp posting host beagle colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 43 deja vu uiuc edu \( \) writes ca n't imagine 's like penis , much less foreskin guess american medicine artistic job circumcising every male , visual result would somewhat natural appearance penile cancer thing completely must going school south pacific island tell check journal urology circumcision articles remember least 1 old jewish man \( cut birth \) developed penile cancer mean , cancer risk great , europe circumcising like crazy , teaching boy keep clean issue little proper hygiene goes long way americans hung penis consider cleaning 's way much like surgical intervention basically unnecessary peter university illinois urbana champaign first , use decent terms ya n't mind sci med , alt sex secondly , absolutely bogus assume american 's hung penis blah , blah think american 's n't care anything think looks nicer ask see response get others still opt circumcision due religious traditions beliefs think easier clean still others daddy naive think american 's afraid sexuality son circumcised , vouch argument difficult keep clean circumcised kids' much foreskin difficult pull back \( n't \) son n't want wait long enough thorough check misplaced feces , many times gets dab worries might get infection due lack cooperation sure , however , able handle cleaning foreskin old enough , always decision change time clean wait till next time
interlan interlan com \( ernie \) subject question deficiency \? \? \? organization distribution usa lines 5 anyone information deficiency would greatly appreciate response preferably email know point deficiency cause released , times stress high ambient temperature could cause renal failure x
atae spva ph ic ac uk \( ata etemadi \) subject krillean photography nntp posting host prawn sp ph organization imperial college science , technology , medicine , london , england lines 10 article efi com , efi com \( alan morgan \) writes article c65oil 436 vuse vanderbilt edu alex vuse vanderbilt edu \( alexander p zijdenbos \) writes okay name one single effect kirlian photography gives ca n't explained corona discharge dozens funny postings sci image processing may one ata \( \)
organization university illinois chicago , academic computer center uicvm uic edu subject chromium weight loss lines 18 data show chromium effective promoting weight loss studies done using chromium flawed biased \( investigators making money marketing \) theoretically really doesnt make sense either claim chromium increase muscle mass decrease fat course , chromium also used cure diabetes , high blood pressure increase muscle mass athletes \( well steroids \) sounds like snake oil 1990 's \) hand , really cant hurt anywhere wallet , place bo effects anything pretty dramatic paul paul , u illinois college pharmacy email uicvm uic edu
bobm ingres com \( bob \) subject earwax lines 34 amdahl uts amdahl com , dated 29 apr 93 15 43 10 gmt , lmtra uts amdahl com \( leon traister \) writes stephen mont cs missouri edu \( stephen montgomery smith \) writes healthiest way deal earwax \? one leave ear mess , clean every often \? cleaning damage \? tubes ear might get blocked \? assuming wax causing hearing loss , congestion popping ears , try cautious water bulb syringe , awkward oneself may work may even make things worse \( wife would disagree , successfully every six months \) case attempt anything q tips ! ! ! 'll agree wife student , doctors remove rather surprising amounts wax ears flushing couple times , usually examining ears reason , said something like gee , 've got lot wax case , removal large wax noticeably improve hearing , 've since gotten habit wife flushing warm water little rubber bulb every months buy little bulbs together ear drops express purpose drug store n't notice drops accomplish much anything one question doctor flushed ears also advocated drop rubbing alcohol afterwards flush remaining trapped water said told swimming , works , stings like devil , 've always content let water ears swimming flushing figure get shaking head times wo n't trick comments \?
banschbach vms ocom okstate edu subject candida \( yeast \) bloom , fact fiction organization osu college osteopathic medicine lines 91 nntp posting host vms ocom okstate edu article usenet ins cwru edu , po cwru edu \( elisabeth davidson \) writes previous article , banschbach vms ocom okstate edu \( \) says least enlightened physicians practicing u 's really bad u medical schools n't cover nutrition , candida would viewed non disease many medical profession case western reserve med school teaches nutrition section well covering sections apply \( e b12 deficiency neuro cause , b12 deficiency cause \) , yet hold viewpoint mainstream medicine candida cause candidiasis , , already sick patients damaged immune systems like aids cancer patients , systemic candida infection think yeast connection bunch hooey well nutrition taught , anyway \? elisabeth , let 's set record straight nth time , read yeast connection anything say due brainwashing hated book 's okay guess hate book , hate \? elisabeth , i'm going quote 's microbiology , 20th edition book familiar hate candida species mucosal surfaces humans birth shortly thereafter risk infection clearly ever present indeed , candidiasis occurs worldwide common systemic play main role preventing systemic infection \( candidiasis \) would low count sick see systemic infection poor diet persistent parasitic set many third world residents candidiasis assessment candidiasis u correct dispute posted discussion candida blooms , without systemic infection blooms would responsible local sites irritation \( gi tract , mouth , vagina sinus cavity \) knocking bacterial competition candida proposed possible trigger candida blooms let quote 's however , factors , use broad spectrum antibiotic , may mucosal systemic infections addressing mucosal infections \( like term blooms better \) nutrition course teach covers effect antibiotic treatment well cure guess nutrition course , bad brief primer yeast yeast infections , commonly called , truely caused yeasts common organism responsible type infection candida albicans monilia actually yeast like fungus well , maybe i'm getting picky , always thought yeast one form fungus could exist , mold form many occur either yeasts molds , depending environment candida known reverse exists mold tissues exists yeast environment maybe call mold infection \? fungus infection \? maybe say caused mold like fungus martin banschbach , ph professor biochemistry chairman department biochemistry microbiology osu college osteopathic medicine 1111 west 17th st tulsa , ok 74107 're chairman biochem micro n't know yeast form fungus \? \( shudder \) maybe know , oversimplifying \? , elisabeth , detect little steve dyer \? noticed faculty rank , i'm , candida fungus \( according 's \) , point , displays capable producing yeast cells , true hyphae elisabeth , probably makes lot sense , 's lot greek called yeast like fungus , go ahead crucify know elisabeth , still n't able figure small little organism like candida bring much hostility people sci med must got sucked mud keep hoping people take time think 've said , make sense i'm asking anyone buy yeast connection book n't know 's book , plain simple honest , i'm beginning wish never written marty b
alan barclay almac co uk \( alan barclay \) subject need info reply alan barclay almac co uk \( alan barclay \) organization almac bbs ltd 44 \( 0 \) 324 lines 11 menon boulder colorado edu \( ravi deantha menon \) ro first , use decent terms ya n't mind sci med , ro alt sex would like rephrase \? unix1 g 'day mate , throw another cat !
cunixb cc columbia edu \( jonathan h lin \) subject factor keywords , renal regulation reply cunixb cc columbia edu \( jonathan h lin \) organization columbia university lines 12 nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu response increases fluid volume acts facilitate sodium water excretion kidneys someone tell molecular mechanism done \? please email response thanks mo thon
lauger ssdgwy mdc com \( john lauger \) subject sumatripton \( spelling \? \) organization mcdonnell douglas aerospace lines 25 nntp posting host mdc com article cruzio santa cruz ca us , roxannen cruzio santa cruz ca us wrote recently heard testing new migraine drug called sumatripton \( idea actual spelling \) supposedly utilizes chemical trips neuro transmitters mother regular migraines nothing seems help anyone know anything new drug \? testing anywhere near approval \? seem working \? girlfriend started taking drug really helped get rebound withdrawl got analgesics n't mail account , asked forward distributor imitrex drug 's brand name works call pharmacy info miracle drug used years europe time canada trials u completed drug hit us market end march pharmacies n't stock yet presently needs injected although testing starting nasal spray form mimics serotonin \( molecular structure fits onto pain receptors looks identical serotonin model saw \) opinions mine others definately mda 's ! lauger ssdgwy mdc com mcdonnell douglas aerospace , huntington beach , california , usa
mcelwre cnsvax uwec edu subject biological alchemy organization university wisconsin eau claire lines 103 important info humbly suggested robert 's fans redirect followups alt fan robert mcelwaine , least consider biological alchemy \( another form cold fusion \) \( alternative heavy element creation universe \) simple experiment demonstrate \( prove \) fact biological transmutations \( reactions like mg ca , si c ca , k h ca , n2 co , etc \) , described book biological transmutations louis , 1972 edition best , chapter 17 book secret life plants peter christopher bird , 1973 \( 1 \) obtain good sample plant seeds , kind kinds might work better others \( 2 \) divide sample two groups equal weight number \( 3 \) sprout one group distilled water filter paper three four weeks \( 4 \) separately incinerate groups \( 5 \) weigh residue group residue sprouted group usually weigh least several percent group \( 6 \) analyze residue group mineral content mineral atoms sprouted group heavier mineral elements fusing atoms oxygen , hydrogen , carbon , nitrogen , etc biological transmutations occur routinely , even bodies ingesting source organic silicon \( silicon carbon , extract , \) speed healing broken bones via reaction si c ca , \( much faster merely ingesting calcium directly \) mineral deposits ground formed micro organisms fusing together atoms silicon , carbon , nitrogen , oxygen , hydrogen , etc two reactions si c ca , micro organisms , cause stone sickness statues , building bricks , etc reaction n2 co , hot iron , creates carbon monoxide poison hazard welder operators people near woodstoves \( even properly sealed ones \) bacteria even neutralize radioactivity ! things happen , spite currently accepted laws physics , \( including law says atomic fusion requires extremely high temperatures pressures \) biological transmutations , applications chemistry , physics , biology , ecology , medicine , nutrition , , geology , 1st edition , c louis , active member new york academy science , 1972 , 163 pages , illustrated , swan house publishing co , p box 638 , binghamton , ny secret life plants , peter christopher bird , 1973 , 402 pages , harper row , new york chapters 19 20 entire book fascinating ! information , answers questions , etc , please consult cited sources \( two books \) un altered reproduction dissemination important information encouraged robert e mcelwaine b , physics astronomy , uw ec
mmatusev radford vak12ed edu \( melissa n matusevich \) subject sumatripton \( spelling \? \) organization virginia 's public education network \( radford \) lines 5 received fda approval months ago prescription n't use yet believe company developing oral form stage , one must inject drug one 's muscle doctor said within 30 minutes , migraine gone good !
mmatusev radford vak12ed edu \( melissa n matusevich \) subject cure dry skin \? organization virginia 's public education network \( radford \) lines 4 cured mine bag bought local farm supply store relatively cheap works days product developed treat sore
yang earlham edu subject vasectomy health effects women \? organization earlham college , richmond , indiana lines 22 article 1993apr27 nic csu net , nermal santarosa edu \( eric \) writes anyone know studies done long term health effects man 's vasectomy female partner \? 've seen plenty study results vasectomy 's effects men 's health , women \? example , might wife man become risk , say , cervical cancer \? adverse effects sperm antibodies \? changes vagina 's ph \? yeast bacterial infections \? outside study results , informed speculation \? 've heard studies , speculation earth would effect women 's health \? 's absurd idea 've heard since ted kaldis 's claim 35 , 000 people would march washington ok , one point greatly reduced chance pregnancy 's josh
cindy uci edu \( cindy \) subject 's bone scan \? nntp posting host 128 200 129 76 organization university advancement , university calif , irvine lines 7 mother advised bone scan performed \? procedure , painful \? 's leg back pain gp said sciatica oncologist listened symptoms said n't sound like sciatica , get bone scan cindy w
noring netcom com \( jon noring \) subject candida \( yeast \) bloom , fact fiction organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 47 article banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes i'm asking anyone buy yeast connection book n't know 's book , plain simple honest , i'm beginning wish never written agree consensus written way doctor claims introduced dr crook possibility candida overbloom causing diffuse symptoms way back 1961 \( reason doubt \) like book 1 \) makes many unfounded claims , 2 \) horribly written scientific viewpoint hand , doctor always kept open mind subject believe aspects yeast connection , believe truth book hopefully right clinical studies done separate fact fiction meantime , 'd still encourage people incurable chronic sinus problems \( especially antibiotics \) , find doctor administer systemic type anti fungal itraconazole \( along liver panels , treatment play safe \) empirical approach sure , else fails , ent says sorry , 'll live , time step try empirical approach backed significant anecdotal evidence \( dr ivker \) , supported plausible theories \( outlined marty \) stage little lose , particularly use itraconazole proper monitoring health risk shown extensive clinical studies europe u minimal relatively healthy \( e , non aids \) patients i'm glad , since saw remarkable results one week sporanox \( itraconazole \) course , mileage may vary lot everyone different may work talk doctor jon noring charter member infj club 're dying know infj means , brave , e mail , 'll send info jon noring noring netcom com jkn international ip 192 100 81 100 fred's gourmet chocolate 1312 carlton place phone \( 510 \) 294 8153 chips world 's best ! livermore , ca 94550 v mail \( 510 \) 417 4101 \? read alt psychology personality ! 's action
picl25 fsphy1 physics fsu edu \( picl account 25 \) subject 's bone scan \? organization florida state university school higher thought news software vax vms vnews 1 4 b1 reply picl25 fsphy1 physics fsu edu lines 42 article cindy 349 uci edu , cindy uci edu \( cindy \) writes mother advised bone scan performed \? procedure , painful \? 's leg back pain gp said sciatica oncologist listened symptoms said n't sound like sciatica , get bone scan assume correctly mother cancer \? , since mentioned oncologist bone scan nuclear scan scan dose radioactive tracer , imaging device used track distribution tracer body tracer usually given \( iv \) means physician assistant insert needle vein inject medicine vein minutes passed tracer circulate body , person scanned imaging device detect high concentrations tracer radiologist doctor looking areas take radioactive tracer less far pain , pain comes needle stick required start iv line doctor probably looking changes bones may resulted cancer also wondering mother cancer , since cancer spread one site wind system hope answered questions feel free e mail questions related bone scan anything else related mother 's care i'm newly graduated nurse , enjoy sharing information people help understand things know thoughts elisa b hanson \( picl25 fsphy1 physics fsu edu \) chief function body carry head around albert einstein
houle nmt edu \( paul houle \) subject antihistamine sleep aid article nmt 1993apr29 organization electrical eng dept new mexico tech lines 46 nntp posting host baltic long time 've problem feeling really awful try get morning sleep latency night also pretty long , ranging 30 min hour get 7 hours \( maybe 6 actual sleep \) night weekends spend two three hours laying bed , feel tired wake , even tired went bed , usually tired work anyway , recently really bad flu , called friend get cough nasal got formula 44m everything used anyway , three nights used , fell asleep rapidly felt got really good quality sleep , actually felt refreshed next morning , trying look , literature experimentally , use antihistamines sleep aids , since antihistamine caused effect antihistamine formula 44 , bought generic tablets , tried one last night n't notice improvement might try one little alcohol \( 1 beer \) see effect also , library research seems show antihistamine strongest sedative effect availible otc might also buy generic form try pdr seems suggest 50 mg good dosage level try medical information , allergies rarely allergic reaction living new mexico also chronically dry eyes , get horrible try use guess problem might caused hypoglycemia , made changes diet consistent , n't help , went back normal diet \( pretty diverse , also taking vitamin supplements \) anyway , looking advice use antihistamines sleep aids , dangers use \( seems safe since used chronically allergies millions \) n't want try bzs , bz addiction seems serious threat , hear , bz sleep quality good , whereas antihistamine sleep quality seems better tried dietary tryptophan loading stuff , also seems lower sleep quality , seem wake around 4 00 kind mental haze 7 00 8 00 also , would interested advice helping problem \( although 've already tried many non solutions \)
bag end pad otc com au \( goldstein \) subject bates eye exercises organization limited lines 23 mailed correct newsgroup \( \) \? newsgroup \( \) cover following topic \? anyone myopia \( short \) ever done bates eye exercises \? , could please e mail following information age state sight exercises commenced type , frequency , length time spent exercises performed improvements noticed immediately performing exercises length period improved sight thanks advance replies 'll summarise post results 's enough interest jonathan goldstein jonathan goldstein otc com au 61 2 339
tas pegasus com \( len howard \) subject pregnency without sex \? summary really without sex , see keywords pregnency sex organization pegasus , honolulu lines 25 article blue cis pitt edu kxgst1 pitt edu \( kenneth gilbert \) writes article stephen 735806195 mont stephen mont cs missouri edu \( stephen montgomery smith \) writes school boy , biology teacher told us incident couple passionate without actually sexual intercourse somehow girl became pregnent sperm cells made way clothes via persperation biology teacher misinforming us , incidents actually occur \? sounds like someone pulling leg one way pregnancy occur intercourse days however also artificial insemination implantation techniques , 're speaking natural acts possible pregnancy occur semen deposited outside vagina \( e \) , 's far get clothes way better go talk biology teacher kenneth gilbert university pittsburgh well , , doc , sure would want bet life little critters able get thru one layer sweat soaked cotton way programmed task infrequent , yes , unlikely , yes , impossible \? learned long time ago never say never medicine g len howard md ,
davec ecst csuchico edu \( dave childs \) subject dental question organization california state university , chico lines 20 nntp posting host hairball ecst csuchico edu hearing bad thing amalgam dental say lead mercury system bad recently heard suspicion mercury breeding ground bacteria resistant antibiotics dentist wants use amalgam filling place two one tooth wants use one filling cover says composite filling n't hold well large , would like know choices besides amalgam composite , really even worried amalgam \? heard country even use true information give greatly appreciated thanks ! dave childs
mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) subject antihistamine sleep aid nntp posting host aisun3 ai uga edu organization ai programs , university georgia , athens lines 13 i'm interested angle antihistamine take relief allergies , assurance sedative effect completely worn next morning , preferably anti allergy effect lasting longer \? i'm thinking mainly otc products least duration sedative action , , \? note i'm asking duration , intensity michael covington , associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu university georgia phone 706 542 0358 athens , georgia 30602 7415 u amateur radio n4tmi
dante nmsu edu \( kenneth carver \) subject isolation amplifiers eeg ecg cheap organization new mexico state university , las cruces , nm lines 9 distribution usa nntp posting host dante nmsu edu several isolation amplifier boards ideal interface eeg ecg isolation essential safety connecting line powered equipment electrodes body boards incorporate burr brown isolation module currently sells 133 , plus op amps produce overall voltage gain 350 400 like new guaranteed good 20 , schematic included please email data ken carver
per arne umu se \( per arne \) subject help purification mice organization university , sweden lines 16 hello ! need technique separation \( \) peripheral blood mice low ratio \( approx 20 80 \) easy corresponding technique used human blood , per arne ps e mail address per arne umu se ds
nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \( david nye \) subject sumatripton \( spelling \? \) organization university wisconsin eau claire lines 21 reply roxannen cruzio santa cruz ca u recently heard testing new migraine drug called sumatripton \( idea actual spelling \) supposedly utilizes chemical trips neuro transmitters mother regular migraines nothing seems help anyone know anything new drug \? testing anywhere near approval \? seem working \? got back american academy neurology annual meeting , consensus sumatriptan \( imitrex \) advantages dhe 45 nasal spray , much less expensive , fewer side effects , effective , works quickly \( 5 10 minutes vs 30 \) besides , wants give shot \( sumatriptan \) nasal spray works \? dhe nasal spray widely available yet mail ordered one pharmacies country neurologists know know order david nye \( nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \) midelfort clinic , eau claire wi patently absurd whoever wishes become philosopher must learn frightened absurdities bertrand russell
barkdoll lepomis psych upenn edu \( edwin barkdoll \) subject organization university pennsylvania lines 14 nntp posting host lepomis psych upenn edu article cup portal com mmm cup portal com \( mark robert thorson \) writes first , i'm mistaken , animals brown fat , humans human infants fat deposits adult humans believed brown fat also brown fat may play important role , definitely limited animals common energy source edwin barkdoll barkdoll lepomis psych upenn edu world std com
pbs org subject cure dry skin \? distribution world organization pbs public broadcasting service , alexandria , va lines 33 article morrow stanford edu , mou stanford edu \( alex mou \) writes hi , skin dry general serious part located knees skin looks like segmented segmentation actually happens beneath skin would like know cure supermarkets pharmacies , quite lot dry skins , chose \? thanks advance hints reply email preferred alex matter fact , saw dermatologist day , , asked dry skin 'd spending small fortune various creams , , dry skin treatments said needed large jar vaseline soak lukewarm tub water 10 minutes \( 10 minutes ! \) massage vaseline , trap moisture help n't tried yet , bet hard part finding time rub vaseline properly 's done right , remain greasy stick clothes try 's got cheaper spending 30 8 oz jane
subject earwax nicholson kosmos wcc govt nz reply nicholson kosmos wcc govt nz organization wellington city council \( public access \) , , nz nntp posting host kosmos wcc govt nz lines 15 article stephen mont , stephen mont cs missouri edu \( stephen montgomery smith \) writes healthiest way deal earwax \? one leave ear mess , clean every often \? cleaning damage \? tubes ear might get blocked \? stephen best thing leave , work way surface anything stick try clean going push wax pack solid , thus hearing sean
levin bbn com \( joel b levin \) subject biological alchemy lines 19 nntp posting host fred bbn com mcelwre cnsvax uwec edu writes biological alchemy \( another form cold fusion \) gee , 'd forgotten nut un altered reproduction dissemination important information encouraged robert e mcelwaine b , physics astronomy , uw ec know \( prove \) b stands case
levin bbn com \( joel b levin \) subject earwax lines 18 nntp posting host fred bbn com bobm ingres com \( bob \) writes one question doctor flushed ears also advocated drop rubbing alcohol afterwards flush remaining trapped water said told swimming , works , stings like devil , 've always content let water ears swimming flushing figure get shaking head times wo n't trick comments \? trouble 's usually water trapped remaining wax n't see ca n't let eventually j nets levin bbn com earn sessions pots \( 617 \) 873
uni duesseldorf de \( \) subject krillean photography organization , heinrich heine universitaet duesseldorf lines 47 nntp posting host rz uni duesseldorf de article 1993apr27 magnus acs ohio state edu wvhorn magnus acs ohio state edu \( william vanhorne \) writes newsgroups sci energy , sci image processing , sci anthropology , alt sci physics new theories , sci skeptic , sci med , alt alien visitors path rz uni duesseldorf de ! rrz uni koeln de ! gmd de ! newsserver jvnc net ! howland reston ans net ! zaphod mps ohio state edu ! magnus acs ohio state edu ! wvhorn wvhorn magnus acs ohio state edu \( william vanhorne \) subject krillean photography message id 1993apr27 magnus acs ohio state edu sender news magnus acs ohio state edu nntp posting host bottom magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university references 1993apr26 204319 11231 ultb isc rit edu boi usenet ucs indiana edu c65oil 436 vuse vanderbilt edu date tue , 27 apr 1993 23 32 34 gmt lines 33 xref rz uni duesseldorf de sci energy sci image processing sci anthropology alt sci physics new theories sci skeptic sci med alt alien visitors article c65oil 436 vuse vanderbilt edu alex vuse vanderbilt edu \( alexander p zijdenbos \) writes reading posts kirlian \( whatever spelling \) photography could n't help slightly disgusted narrow minded , know , n't believe ca n't see measure attitude many people neither real believer , disbeliever comes called paranormal stuff far i'm concerned , likely existence , instance , god , seems quite accepted societies without scientific basis convinced serious mistake close mind something , anything , simply n't fit current frame reference history shows many great people , great scientists , people kept open mind ridiculed sceptics especially usa grateful , columbus drop edge earth one thing open minded demonstrated false , quite another believe something like photography , claimed effects demonstrated artifacts longer reason adopt wait see attitude photography , experimentally shown nothing simple coronal discharge auras shown missing leaf parts came moisture left original whole leaf , example 's science , son bill vanhorne
yozzo watson ibm com \( ralph yozzo \) subject cold sore location \? disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host king arthur watson ibm com organization ibm j watson research center lines 11 've cold past always corner mouth recently , 've appears cold sore , lower lip middle \( chin \) cold appear anywhere around mouth \( body \) \? medical term cold sore \? ralph yozzo \( yozzo watson ibm com \) beautiful historic new york state mid hudson valley
ps ic ac uk \( erik viking \) subject thyroidal deficiency organization imperial college computer centre lines 31 nntp posting host ps hi wife aquired thyroidal \( sp \? \) deficiency past year gives symptoms needing much sleep , coldness gaining weight doctor taken ordinary \( \? \) tests values regarded low doctor \( wife \) interested starting medication gland , giving life long dependency drug \( hormone \? \) last couple seeing \( sp \? \) given drops activate either thyroidal gland center' brain \( sorry approximate language , n't got many clues english terms , brain area called norwegian \) questions anyone heard success using approach \? values \( slowly \) steadily sinking , comment probability improvement \? although doctor told , wife vigorously keep weight feels part keeping edge illness condition , may affect treatment , development \? get exact figures tests anyone interested , greatly value information opinion experience topic n't intend post either flaming established medical profession praise alternatives , events happened sincerely , erik
resinfo resinfo demon co uk \( resinfo \) subject investigating \? reply resinfo resinfo demon co uk organization demon lines 10 x mailer simple news 1 90 \( ka9q dis 1 19 \) resinfo \( research information \) currently seeking contact united kingdom researchers , amino acid \? resinfo regular subscriber sci med due excessive load data , limited ability monitor would therefore appreciated replies could sent direct resinfo resinfo demon co uk using ref mr
jge cs unc edu \( john eyles \) subject insensitive technicians distribution usa organization university north carolina chapel hill lines 37 nntp posting host ceti cs unc edu friend recently admitted north carolina memorial hospital suspected meningitis serious business wanted lumbar puncture , ct scan prerequisite arrived hospital room hour returned ct tears evidently technicians ct lab unpleasant begin , put apparatus moves machine , pushed button slide straight machine , without explanation imagine worried may deadly disease , next thing know 're put big scary machine , without word explanation going happen believe inexcusable waved hand say , responded annoyance anger next inserted , tried insert , iv apparently lot trouble complained pain technician stopped fixed glare without words explanation anything pigs \? realize technicians sort job day day patients irritating simply excuse purpose existing help sick people , excuse sort behavior fortunately friend fine imagine large proportion people get ct scans fine cancer sort thing n't need kind shit also , since named hospital involved , also point neither complaints competence compassion personnel thanks listening , john eyles jge cs unc edu
csc liv ac uk \( n humphries \) subject krillean photography organization computer science , liverpool university lines 31 nntp posting host goyt csc liv ac uk x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 thomas trusk \( ttrusk mcw edu \) wrote article efi com efi com \( alan morgan \) writes article c65oil 436 vuse vanderbilt edu alex vuse vanderbilt edu \( alexander p zijdenbos \) writes neither real believer , disbeliever comes called paranormal stuff far i'm concerned , likely existence , instance , god , seems quite accepted societies without scientific basis bad example i'm atheist flame , abuse , want start another thread \( , , supposed image processing \) , say 're atheist suggest proof god means cannot atheists since way prove god atheists people believe god , believe , also damn sure n't god \( like \) cursor , aka nick humphries , csc liv ac uk , service 's use computers \? 'll never play pay money see chess , draw art make music jean bad films \? stay home intelligence n't make mistakes , see bad tv make look good free sam
banschbach vms ocom okstate edu subject robert 's biological alchemy lines 106 nntp posting host vms ocom okstate edu organization osu college osteopathic medicine robert , i'm glad posted biological alchemy discussion 've compared famous robert mcelwaine readers sci med n't know respond since seen one posts \( like n't read yeast connection \) let start stating authors cold fusion papers recent years scientific exile \( believe one actually left country \) scientific fraud rare i'm still sure review research notes cold fusion scientists actually proved fraud shoddy experimentation sources seem research articles like lay texts designed human interest subject area \( like food combining life extension texts \) robert , try keep open mind things ca n't buy \( one taking sod orally prevent oxidative damage body \) experiment , conducted readers news group , would prove right \( ash seed \) unless use obtain high temperature \( 600 degrees believe \) , get organic residue ash even residue commercial contains organic residue remember kind experiment organic chemistry college could n't find temperature mineral ash formation i'm really guessing 600 degrees f , may actually much higher point one home could ever get high enough temperature produce mineral ash also could measure minerals could weigh ash find appear correct chemical reactions abound body , atmosphere , water soil fusion reactions \? yes many involve fusing oxygen , nitrogen sulfur really transformation silicone calcium carbon fused silicon \? book robert silicon abundant mineral planet 've seen speculation man could evolved silicon based rather carbon based life form like reading science fiction , many people know enough biochemistry \( nutrition \) able \( cases \) separate fiction fact silicon may one trace elements turns essential humans several grams stuff body 's \? lord knows right tell know silicon , state , helps bone healing \( silicon transformed calcium \) almost silicon human body found tissue \( \) studies published show high silicon content may important protective factor \( higher silicon content , resistant age related loss may play role increase blood pressure often seen part process humans \) bone healing , first step matrix calcium phosphate pumped high level silicon diet seems speed matrix formation first step bone healing process seems hardest people get going currents used attempt get matrix forming cells oriented right direction matrix formed gap \( gaps \) ends broken bone vitamin c deficiency \( slowing formation well causing defective \) slow bone wound healing zinc also another big player bone wound healing silicon \( undetermined role likely matrix formation transformation silicon calcium \) take bone healing observation use proof silicon transformed calcium interesting little trick robert , problem read lay press \( yes even scientific papers \) explanation reasonable \? without good science knowledge base , readers news group flying blind \( take faith n't know better \) explanation seems make sense based knowledge base , i'm inclined consider \( usually means trying find sources come conclusion \) idea \( like candida bloom \) seems make sense , tend pursue long advice i'm going give n't going really mess somebody makes us kindred souls robert , guess 'll live label physicians decided read response robert 's interesting post , hope saw segment pediatric neurosurgeon last night u tv ca n't remember network name \( like many nights , computer wife watching tv den computer setup \) neurosurgeon takes kids brain tumors everyone else given uses unconventional treatments \( words \) says 70 success rate one case heard discussing would normally use radiation \( conventional treatment \) going go cut guys complain cost anti fungals think cost difference radiation treatment surgery guys \? i'm going ask guys one time , blast physician takes chronic sinus sufferer \( like jon \) chronic gi sufferer \( like elaine \) tries help using unconventional treatments \? treatments result death \( like neurosurgeon uses \? \) candida blooms life threatening brain tumors \? quality life guys \? may candida demon never cross sinus cavity gut \( , may feel differently issue \) marty b
sdl linus mitre org \( steven litvintchouk \) subject antihistamine sleep aid reply houle nmt edu 's message thu , 29 apr 1993 05 20 44 gmt nntp posting host rigel mitre org organization mitre corporation , bedford , lines 31 article 1993apr29 nmt edu houle nmt edu \( paul houle \) writes anyway , looking advice use antihistamines sleep aids , dangers use \( seems safe since used chronically allergies millions \) n't want try bzs , bz addiction seems serious threat , hear , bz sleep quality good , whereas antihistamine sleep quality seems better tried dietary tryptophan loading stuff , also seems lower sleep quality , seem wake around 4 00 kind mental haze 7 00 8 00 also , would interested advice helping problem \( although 've already tried many non solutions \) antihistamines active ingredient otc sleep aids decades go look packages sleep aids , , etc active ingredient diphenhydramine , antihistamine 's steven litvintchouk mitre corporation 202 burlington road bedford , 01730 fone \( 617 \) 271 arpa sdl mitre org uucp linus ! sdl
uabdpo dpo uab edu ! gila005 \( stephen holland \) subject annual inguinal hernia repair organization gastroenterology univ alabama lines 28 article jpc avdms8 msfc nasa gov , jpc avdms8 msfc nasa gov \( j porter clark \) wrote synopsis young man hernia one side , repaired , new hernia side gives , asks \? continues course , wife thinks 's sitting long periods time computer , reading news possibility degree causing chronic straining caused bowel movements classic problems supposed looked someone hernia , chronic cough , colon cancer \( 're young \) sitting long periods time computer , reading news good luck surgery ! steve holland well , post accurate people early life hernias felt congenital sack promotes formation hernias hernias later life may associated chronic straining however , risk damage intestine without operation high enough ought repaired risk cancer probably higher general population , since near 40 , would sensible sort cancer screening , flexible sorry misleading info steve holland
klier iscsvax uni edu subject allergic reactions laser printers \? \? organization university northern iowa lines 10 article 1993apr29 informatik tu muenchen de , rdd uts ipp garching mpg de \( reinhard drube \) writes anyone know allergic reactions caused developer toner laser printers \? chemical stuff involved \? mainly carbon dust iron plastic binder melted paper stuff dry paper allergies \? n't heard , anything 's possible allergies \) kay klier biology dept uni
gecko camelot bradley edu \( defend \) subject physical therapy students nntp posting host camelot bradley edu organization bradley university lines 13 interested finding physical therapy students net one , know anyone could get contact via email , address gecko camelot bradley edu thankyou
sfb2763 mvs draper com \( eileen bauer \) subject thyroidal deficiency nntp posting host mvs draper com organization draper laboratory lines 49 article 1993apr30 cc ic ac uk , ps ic ac uk \( erik viking \) writes hi wife aquired thyroidal \( sp \? \) deficiency past year gives symptoms needing much sleep , coldness gaining weight doctor taken ordinary \( \? \) tests values regarded low doctor \( wife \) interested starting medication gland , giving life long dependency drug \( hormone \? \) questions anyone heard success using approach \? values \( slowly \) steadily sinking , comment probability improvement \? although doctor told , wife vigorously keep weight feels part keeping edge illness condition , may affect treatment , development \? several different types thyroid diseases would cause condition \( reduction output thyroid , mainly thyroxin \) except ones caused infections , treatment generally thyroxin pills conditions caused infections usually disappear infection n't sound like case wife thyroxin orally shut thyroid feedback loop involving pituitary \( believe \) pituitary thinks correct amount thyroxin produced n't tell thyroid produce process reversable ! 's \( autoimmune condition \) thyroxin approx 6 mo endocrinologist suggested take pills 6 thyroxin levels , normal still get tested every condition might pills safe side affects \( mostly beginning treatment \) baby might problem would least require closer monitoring hormone levels thyroxin controls energy production explains , coldness , weight gain also water retention \( possibly around heart \) , changes vision , hair skin among things doctor , i'm sure something , important thing thyroid problems usually easily corrected n't corrected cause problems rest body get second opinion good endocrinologist explain things detail wife eileen bauer
banschbach vms ocom okstate edu subject vitamin infection lines 217 nntp posting host vms ocom okstate edu organization osu college osteopathic medicine 've sent gordon r posts protein , vitamin c vitamin prior posting internet professional courtesy somehow 've managed delete vitamin post text file gordon r promised send back 's pretty mad right 'll since digging references time consuming \( took day pms post \) , i'm going cite references \( gordon r \) i'm going include material weinsier morgan 's new nutrition textbook \( original material \) point i'm going say support medical community diet know affect immune system man , long time protein always biggest role infection 've already covered role protein protecting infection i'm going hit consider important nutrient u far infection concerned \( vitamin \) vitamin originally discovered , commonly referred anti infection vitamin many people \( linus one \) decided take title away vitamin give vitamin c \( 've already covered \) big mistake \( opinion \) vitamin also getting reputation anti cancer vitamin \( good reason \) nci currently numerous clinical trials progress see vitamin prevent cancer cure well 's role cancer infection almost identical \( quite \) vitamin comes two completely different forms \( retinol beta carotene \) retinol animal form 's toxic , beta carotene plant form 's completely retinol beta carotene display good absorption human gut bile present \( 60 80 \) liver stores retinol tissues use retinol binding protein \( rbp \) normal human adult liver 500 , 000iu 1 , 000 , 000iu retinol stored born 10 , 000iu liver u autopsy shown 30 americans die \( less \) amount vitamin born n't believe nutritional reserves \( like retinol liver \) important , low vitamin reserve going affect believe \( like \) nutrient reserves important , problem vitamin u u rda vitamin adult male 1 , 000 5 , 000iu vitamin adult 800 4 , 000iu vitamin diet surveys show americans getting amount vitamin \( either retinol beta carotene \) diet nrc \( national research council \) going release new rda table 1985 rda vitamin vitamin c raised \( c per day 7 , per day adult males \) report 's recommendations killed \? concern increasing supplementation main reason set prevent clinical disease , keep nutrient reserves full many scientist u feel time come move away prevention clinical pathology concept move towards promotion optimum health concept , especially since good data show nutrient reserves extremely important periods stress battle new group scientist collected come 1989 rda list lowered rda several nutrients moved dietary guidelines back first started 1940 's \( get enough prevent clinical pathology , enough fill reserves \) know autopsy 10 americans liver normal vitamin reserve \( 500 , 000iu 1 , 000 , 000iu \) preach nutrient reserves students tell measure patients vitamin , liver biopsy \( autopsy data \) tell much somebody stored tell easily someone liver vitamin measuring retinol level \( levels dl highly suggestive filled liver vitamin 's time stop taking retinol \) normal range serum retinol 20 dl diagnosed serum retinol level 2 , dl higher \( interpretation diagnostic test , wallach , , little brown series book \) level vitamin blood means medical attention necessary due vitamin toxicity weinsier morgan take much conservative approach vitamin toxicity wallach , see later post dl 2 , dl plenty warning 's time eliminate retinol diet \( headache , skin , hair loss , joint pain \) tell students use vitamin practice better monitor serum retinol level stop clear signs liver full never really know patient needs vitamin \( measure pool liver \) always know 's time stop \( like vitamin pms studies \) beta carotene taken fill liver retinol never worry toxicity conversion beta carotene retinol occurs gut liver slow \( stops liver slows gut \) liver full retinol taking beta carotene source retinol takes long time fill liver \( 've seen estimates 20 30 years \) 30 much born liver \( 10 , 000iu \) one problem beta carotene , zinc deficit , convert much beta carotene retinol gut liver conversion requires zinc addition , release retinol liver zinc dependent process zinc deficit cause vitamin deficit even liver plenty vitamin vitamin cancer infection protection \? body uses vitamin \( retinol \) many different things vision \( first nailed see overt clinical pathology \) uses \( retinal \) alcohol \( retinol \) form vitamin reproduction uses retinol form retinal infection cancer protection uses retinoic acid convert retinol \( white blood cells mucosal cells get blood \) retinoic acid \? use enzymes , one requires vitamin c \( tried pull title anti infection vitamin away vitamin \) vitamin c play role infection \( production example \) 's biggest role conversion retinol retinoic acid increase intake vitamin c , increase formation retinoic acid retinoic acid converted back retinol \( retinal \) 's formed , 's used lost body 1985 nrc group wanted increase vitamin c vitamin rda 's people taking large amounts vitamin c really think helping n't much vitamin liver also increasing intake vitamin , actually harm good retinoic acid functions white blood cells promote antibody formation mucus membrane , main factor promoting good mucus production good cell barrier prevent infectious agents entering blood system mucus membrane referred first line defense infection cancer , retinoic acid shown act cell brake \( effect cell stimulate cells divide \) cancer two distinct steps , dna alteration cell promotion cells normally divide time , important lung breast tissue normally divide , real important process major reason nci many different clinical trials progress using retinol beta carotene chronic infection \( irritation \) mucus membranes signal vitamin may adequate tell students patient walks office complaint chronic infection worked vitamin \( along factors medicine already 's list causes chronic infection \) drive home course osteopathic college tulsa , teach medical school tulsa \( ou 's branch campus \) give cme lectures dark adaptation best clinical test vitamin status since night vision impacted liver drop 50 , 000iu retinol serum level retinol also used , drop liver reserves drop 10 , 000 20 , 000iu asking patient trouble seeing night good initial screen \( ruled \) one study done u spanish americans serum retinol levels measured , 25 sample population serum retinol level dl studies done serum retinol levels population groups u history high infection rates , probably see much correlation infection incidence rates low serum retinol levels weinsier morgan say vitamin \? excerpts book vitamin functions vision retinol , growth tissue , required reproduction , development , bone growth protein malnutrition zinc deficiency may impair absorption , transport , metabolism vitamin converted retinoic acid , biological activity growth cell reproduction vision common procedure evaluate vitamin status measure retinol level plasma serum normal range vitamin content child 20 dl lower values indicators deficiency body stores serum levels greater dl indicative toxic levels vitamin dark adaptation tests measurements also useful difficult perform young children rapidly tissues sensitive vitamin deficiency may revert state tract , skin , system , gastrointestinal tract sweat glands adversely affected daily intake 7 \( 37 , 000iu \) retinol advised chronic use amounts \( 100 , 000iu \) result dry skin , , , hair loss , joint pain , lips , \( bony \) , headaches , , fatigue recommend retinol via im injection children vitamin deficiency discuss treatment adults toxic serum retinol level conservative recommend students try 25 , 000iu adults problems chronic infection rule zinc deficit first getting rbc zinc run \( clinical lab ca n't run , tell weinsier morgan suggest , give zinc along vitamin 25 , 000iu per day , toxicity problem worry pulling patient office regular basis run serum retinol elaine jon found doctors used much higher dose vitamin recall pms papers using 100 , 000iu 200 , 000iu vitamin n't suggest students use high doses wanted fill liver fast \( part clinical trial \) monitoring serum retinol level , would okay knowledge vitamin literature suggests 25 , 000iu patients demonstrated vitamin deficit \( dark test serum retinol \) provide good steady improvement \( long zinc vitamin c status good \) without worry toxicity want get agressive , fine follow advise check serum retinol vitamin \( retinol \) never given high dose women could become pregnant since vitamin shows towards human fetus dose needed show effect developing fetus 18 , 000iu retinol per day beta carotene never effect human fetus could taking beta carotene instead retinol supplements help \? yes effect take long time develop advise use retinol fill liver switch beta carotene keep full vitamin probably one nutrient better left prescription doctors 's newsgroup jumping doctors propose use vitamin supplements treating patients chronic sinus gi distress , think prudent option keep vitamin otc market require provide package inserts educate general public dangers vitamin supplementation marty b
donrm sr hp com \( montgomery \) subject feverfew migraines organization hp sonoma county \( srsd mwtd mid \) x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 4 lines 12 brenda bowden \( brenda eng sun com \) wrote anyone know studies \? experience feverfew \? keep accurate log migraine attack frequency feverfew n't seem anything however , eliminating caffeine seems pre vent onset migraine case words , caffeine , migraines montgomery donrm sr hp com
dk \( \) subject need values aorta ! organization utexas mail news gateway lines 28 reply 71 dk nntp posting host cs utexas edu need following data human aorta tear shear stress aorta plot cross sectional area stroke volume root approximate distribution blood major branches aorta flow velocity blood aorta various values flow velocity , data remember give us references include report stud fax \( 45 \) 45 93 34 34 hus 7 1 gr 8a university , denmark 260 dk 4000
dragon acadiau ca \( bill wilder \) subject seeking info retinal detachment organization acadia university lines 40 quite near sighted 've recently received laser treatment eyes seal holes help prevent retinal detachment left eye small detachment begun already apparently laser used weld back place well right eye seems fine left eye seeing occasional flashes bright light prior treatment since treatment \( two weeks \) flashes occuring often several hour explained flashes caused body attached retina pulling says treatable hopes may go away accord enough may well face retinal detachment seeking \( via sci med \) additional info retinal dr wish spend much time explanations appreciate details anyone provide interest retina detach immediate course action \? conventional surgery need repair detachment procedure like kind vision expect afterwards symptoms \( fairly frequent flashes \) imply detachment maybe near hand necessarily cause alarm many thanks bill bill wilder , computer systems manager research station agriculture canada , nova scotia
leland stanford edu \( nick \) subject ethics regarding placebo homeopathic medicines organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa lines 17 would like know medical consensus \( consensus within group \) regarding ethics following 1 prescription placebo medications patient specifically request sort treatment 2 selling placebo medication profit 3 prescribing homeopathic remedies without advising patient controversial nature 4 representing homeopathic remedies counter medications thanks , nick
dyer spdcc com \( steve dyer \) subject antihistamine sleep aid organization p dyer computer consulting , cambridge article 1993apr29 nmt edu houle nmt edu \( paul houle \) writes anyway , looking advice use antihistamines sleep aids , dangers use \( seems safe since used chronically allergies millions \) n't want try bzs , bz addiction seems serious threat , hear , bz sleep quality good , whereas antihistamine sleep quality seems better tried dietary tryptophan loading stuff , also seems lower sleep quality , seem wake around 4 00 kind mental haze 7 00 8 00 also , would interested advice helping problem \( although 've already tried many non solutions \) well , think might want visit doctor familiar sleep disturbances , antihistamines help induce sleep 're used intermittently lose sedative effect 're used nightly basis effects \( drying secretions , relaxing effects smooth muscle \) problematic people , prostate enlargement antihistamines like diphenhydramine \( \) \( \) potent useful occasionally \( \) said less sedative , 8mg seems work well people long half lives compared diphenhydramine , may produce residual feeling next morning steve dyer dyer ursa major spdcc com aka ima , harvard , rayssd , linus , m2c ! spdcc ! dyer
dyer spdcc com \( steve dyer \) subject thyroidal deficiency organization p dyer computer consulting , cambridge article 1993apr30 cc ic ac uk ps ic ac uk \( erik viking \) writes doctor taken ordinary \( \? \) tests values regarded low doctor \( wife \) interested starting medication gland , giving life long dependency drug \( hormone \? \) ridiculous , doctor sounds like nut , reported doctor actually said wife 's pancreas stops producing insulin therefore becomes diabetic , 'll need insulin replacement n't mean 's dependent insulin , anymore beforehand body n't make enough , 'll get elsewhere oral thyroid replacement hormone therapy cornerstone treatment , 's really effective therapy available anyway plus , 's cheap taking thyroid hormone n't needed cause thyroid gland reduce production hormone , 's feature , bug , 's irrelevant case face , problem gland n't producing enough n't clinical phenomenon thyroid caused sudden thyroid hormone analogous adrenal caused sudden cessation prolonged administration , worry suppressing thyroid gland last couple seeing \( sp \? \) given drops activate either thyroidal gland center' brain \( sorry approximate language , n't got many clues english terms , brain area called norwegian \) homeopathy nonsense tell stop wasting money , health time , get legitimate doctor position make proper diagnosis recommend right therapy steve dyer dyer ursa major spdcc com aka ima , harvard , rayssd , linus , m2c ! spdcc ! dyer
cit cornell edu \( dov msi visitor \) subject earwax organization mathematical sciences institute \( msi \) cornell university lines 14 nntp posting host cit cornell edu article news bbn com levin bbn com \( joel b levin \) writes bobm ingres com \( bob \) writes one question doctor flushed ears also advocated drop rubbing alcohol afterwards flush remaining trapped water said told swimming , works , stings like devil , 've always content let water ears swimming flushing figure get shaking head times wo n't trick comments \? perhaps rubbing alcohol water , feels comfortable trick \?
cfaks ux1 cts eiu edu \( alice sanders \) subject antihistamine sleep aid organization eastern illinois university lines 10 taken antihistamines nights , n't start effect \? used take one every night allergies could n't figure developed bad insomnia finally figured antihistamines would fall asleep minutes would awaken drop pin little later could get back sleep n't problem since stopped antihistamines \? alice
george crayola east sun com \( george perkins sun microsystems tampa fl systems engineer \) subject lithium questions , doctor wants 10 year old organization sun microsystems , inc lines 33 distribution world reply george crayola east sun com nntp posting host crayola east sun com keywords lithium , info hi sci med folks would like know anything folks tell regarding lithium 10 year old son lives ex wife difficulty behavior , , wants try local doctors suggestion would like know whatever important know worry sort thing would like pros cons regarding lithium therapy booklet lithium information center based university wisconsin , feel pro lithium would interested comments necessarily pro side fence concerned father wish well informed thanks information provide please email directly george perkins systems engineer sun microsystems computer corporation 6200 courtney campbell causeway suite 840 tampa , fl phone \( 813 \) 289 7228 fax \( 813 \) 281 email george perkins east sun com
donald mackie donald mackie med umich edu subject cure dry skin \? organization um anesthesiology lines 8 distribution world nntp posting host 141 214 86 38 x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d9 x xxdate fri , 30 apr 93 22 41 44 gmt article 1993apr30 pbs org , pbs org writes matter fact , saw dermatologist day , seeing dermatologist sounds like good idea worried dry skin mackie opinions
donald mackie donald mackie med umich edu subject insensitive technicians organization um anesthesiology lines 28 distribution world nntp posting host 141 214 86 38 x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d9 x xxdate fri , 30 apr 93 22 38 51 gmt article ceti cs unc edu john eyles , jge cs unc edu writes friend 's unpleasant experience ct scan deleted anything pigs \? 'd suggest writing detailed letter incident hospital administrator specify date time possible names technicians send copy whose care friend admitted say , though friend argument doctor , found administrators sometimes ignore complaints patient becomes may informed complaint surprised find named suit response within week send follow letter attach photocopy original letter weekly get response cat scans non invasive scary scanner bad place interesting study , 10 years ago , found around 10 people cat scans found unpleasant would never another compares 15 said lumbar puncture mackie opinions
athena mit edu subject legality placebos \? organization massachusetts institute technology lines 23 distribution world nntp posting host w20 575 2 mit edu placebos legal \? would seem , patient , purchase drug 've prescribed 's sugar \( whatever \) , 's legal complications arise 1 diagnosed condition n't given accepted treatment , seems like intentional medical malpractice 2 placebo fall , legally , label quackery \( \? \) 3 getting pay \( deceptive bait switch extreme \) false advertising \( mcdonalds n't put 100 pure beef hamburgers \? \) i'm mystified assumptions \? n't , hell doctor knowingly unknowingly prescribe placebo \? thanks
claude banana fedex com \( claude bowie \) subject vitamin hearing loss keywords hearing loss vitamin article banana 1993apr30 distribution sci organization federal express corp lines 11 heard news report indicating research showing improved hearing people taking vitamin research showed new growth replaced damaged nerves anyone heard \? thanks , claude claude bowie voice \( 901 \) 797 federal express corp fax \( 901 \) 797 box 727 , memphis , tn email claude banana fedex com
kimbark uchicago edu \( nathan \) subject deadly \? \? \? reply midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 25 originally posted alt suicide holiday recommended try guys instead friend insists ny quil deadly enough taken suggested something like 20 30 night time would someone normal user ny quil \) , checked hard time believing 250 g acetaminophen 30 mg hcl 10 mg 6 25 mg \( per \) someone settle bet \( package ny quil course \) effect would 20 30 babies \? nathan inter silent worship email midway uchicago edu
adobe \( andrea bruno \) subject thyroidal deficiency organization adobe systems incorporated lines 8 article mvs draper com sfb2763 mvs draper com \( eileen bauer \) writes thyroxin controls energy production explains , coldness , weight gain also water retention \( possibly around heart \) , changes vision , hair skin among things relation thyroid deficiency depression \?
george george email sps mot com subject info colonics purification \? x xxmessage id sps mot com x xxdate fri , 30 apr 93 16 24 13 gmt nntp posting host 222 205 249 21 organization motorola risc division x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d17 lines 33 article cup portal com mark robert thorson , mmm cup portal com writes colonics health fad 19th century , persists day except certain medical conditions , reason certainly normal person article 1993apr28 informix com robert hartman , hartman informix com writes also , insofar n't conform accepted medical presumption n't matter eat , think gi tract black box nothing ever goes wrong \( except maybe cancer ulcers \) , righteous doubt jump recently , completed 2 week juice fast \( 3 days water \) two colonics part motivation primarily spiritual , de crap 've putting body \( like thats enough clean effect \) personaly , n't find uncomfortable experience \( colonic \) , lost beer belly \( n't come back last month \) , feel great one things prompted get colonic seeing 90 year old grandmother chair ridden colitis \( \? \) years indulgence everything goes comes , personaly n't mind giving body hand experience , george beliefs \( almost certainly employer \)
jfh netcom com \( jack hamilton \) subject legality placebos \? organization netcom online communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 40 athena mit edu wrote placebos legal \? would seem , patient , purchase drug 've prescribed 's sugar \( whatever \) , 's legal complications arise 1 diagnosed condition n't given accepted treatment , seems like intentional medical malpractice placebo accepted treatment times 2 placebo fall , legally , label quackery \( \? \) \? placebos effective certain circumstances 's 're used actually , n't know know anyone actually gotten sugar pill n't know could done , since prescription drugs always labeled , 's easy enough find 's pill name 's common prescribe drug effective something , antibiotics viral infections common placebo 3 getting pay \( deceptive bait switch extreme \) false advertising \( mcdonalds n't put 100 pure beef hamburgers \? \) i'm sure mean think 're paying \? 're entitled prescription drug pay doctor 's appointment jack hamilton jfh netcom com po box sf , ca usa
banschbach vms ocom okstate edu subject vitamin hearing loss lines 24 nntp posting host vms ocom okstate edu organization osu college osteopathic medicine distribution sci article 1993apr30 banana fedex com , claude banana fedex com \( claude bowie \) writes heard news report indicating research showing improved hearing people taking vitamin research showed new growth replaced damaged nerves anyone heard \? claude , 've heard read anything would suggest vitamin \( retinol \) could reverse hearing loss due nerve damage \( usually caused high sound levels , also occassionally due severe infection \) types cells vitamin general cells cell types ones function ear hearing process hair cell nerve like cells ear may respond vitamin cellular \( \) n't know still capable responding adults capable responding new hair growth , would major breakthrough hearing loss medical interest vitamin , would surprising clinical study done using vitamin reverse hearing loss news announcement go \( type communication notoriously bad \) , ca n't comment question anymore already one study done , need follow firm link vitamin hearing loss really one marty b
sfb2763 mvs draper com \( eileen bauer \) subject thyroidal deficiency nntp posting host mvs draper com organization draper laboratory lines 43 article 1993apr30 568 adobe com , adobe \( andrea bruno \) writes article mvs draper com sfb2763 mvs draper com \( eileen bauer \) writes thyroxin controls energy production explains , coldness , weight gain also water retention \( possibly around heart \) , changes vision , hair skin among things relation thyroid deficiency depression \? perhaps caused thyroid deficiency could mimic depression , feeling unable anything could cause one get depressed , know specific effect brain caused thyroid would cause depression note weight gain usually symptom simple blood tests would indicate thyroid condition present n't know depression would cause reduction thyroid output , would tend doubt far know clinical depression caused chemical imbalance brain , chemical imbalance direct effect part body regular everyday depression imho cause chemical imbalance body pituitary bases secretions thyroid stimulating hormone \( \) level circulating thyroxin \( two types t3 t4 one used reserve changed active form liver \) ratio t3 t4 affected number hormones \( estrogen , example \) naturally , changing activity body 's cells would cause changes free thyroxin , liver healthy thyroid able balance things short order good sources info thyroid manual \( physician 's reference book \) although reading enough get one depressed \) encyclopedia \( available local library \) hope help eileen bauer
swkirch sun6850 nrl navy mil \( steve kirchoefer \) subject result misc health diabetes passes 155 14 organization naval research laboratory \( electronics science technology division \) lines 221 nntp posting host rodan uu net voting creation newsgroup misc health diabetes ended 23 59 gmt 29 apr 93 time , total response received consisted 155 votes newsgroup creation 14 votes newsgroup creation guidelines usenet group creation , response constitutes passing vote delay allow time net respond result , newsgroup misc health diabetes created please check vote acknowledgement list sure vote received properly credited inconsistencies errors reported swkirch sun6850 nrl navy mil email want thank everyone participated discussion vote newsgroup proposal following voting summary votes received newsgroup creation cline usceast cs scarolina edu ernest cline coleman twin com mike coleman gi alaska edu eric j olson shiva njit edu elliotte rusty harold emcguire intellection com ed mcguire ohsu edu mosaic uncc edu herbert petro gandalf rutgers edu joyce morris julian bongo tele com julian cs uiuc edu rob lau ai sri com stephen lau g kosmos wcc govt nz gerry owens cc buffalo edu bill owens rick crick ssctr bcm tmc edu richard h miller votes received newsgroup creation vms csd mu edu bill loki cc pdx edu jim williams freenet carleton ca colin ad cat de axel dunkel mty itesm mx jesus pe andrea unity ncsu edu badlands nodak edu ramakrishna reddy apps kodak com robert w apps mik uky edu r gov ca dave bain morris hac com morris juliet caltech edu bryan lonexa admin rl af mil norman p bernstein ucd ie brian gaines sim es com bob bjorn b larsen delab sintef bjorn b larsen sad hp com bob uni muenster de dirk bruce liverpool ac uk bruce stephens binkley cs mcgill ca brian spencer lonexa admin rl af mil compass da com ! compass da com thomas donnelly lonexa admin rl af mil diane csc coast ucsd edu charles ! sbs unh edu stephanie bradley swift brenda corp apple com brenda dlb fanny wash inmet com david barton midway uchicago edu deborah lynn dougb comm mot com douglas bank drs cci com dale r dt4 cs hub ucsb edu david e goggin ed titipu resun com edward reid edmoore vcd hp com ed moore accurate com elizabeth hpl hp com enrico enet dec com franklig gas uug arizona edu gregory c franklin fsspr acad3 alaska edu gabe angus mi org gabe gasp lcs mit edu isaac gavin praxis co uk gavin geir tf tele geir cory berkeley edu gail gurman ggw wolves durham nc us gregory g woodbury surfer win net gary gonzalez phy syr edu gonzalez oasys dt navy mil leila thomas grm andrew cmu edu gretchen miller cs rpi edu carol duvm bitnet pucc princeton edu phil handel hc nyongwa cam org nrl navy mil hubert herbison ucx lkg dec com iscsvax uni edu kathleen hrubin pop stat purdue edu herman rubin duc auburn edu b hudson huff med nyu edu edward j huff huffman ingres com gary huffman huynh 1 estd nrl navy mil minh huynh cix compulink co uk donkin james eng sun com james jamie ssd intel com jamie netcom com john myers jc crosfield co uk jerry garnet acns fsu edu james jesup cbmvax cbm commodore com randell jesup hpcc01 corp hp com mcgowan csiro au joe john burton auburn edu john e burton , jr comm mot com cc edu keith jorgenson mik uky edu p sum ucsf edu john maynard julien skcla monsanto com kaminski netcom com peter kaminski kerry citr uq oz au kerry raymond world std com aaron l dickey spot colorado edu jennifer lynn tcs com marc laurie lonexa admin rl af mil laurie j key lee hal com lee boylan po cwru edu lehigh edu chili cc lehigh edu stephen g beamish ins gu edu au marilyn beamish rich ens gu edu au maurice h rich maas fnal gov peter maas marilyn lonexa admin rl af mil marilyn tucker vcd hp com mark vms huji ac il michael mcb net bio net michael c ux1 cso uiuc edu c day flute calpoly edu titipu resun com reid mfc isr harvard edu f mg wpi edu martha mhollowa ic sunysb edu michael holloway misha abacus concordia ca misha mjb cs brown edu manish butte vax1 tcd ie margaret o' flanagan muir idiom berkeley ca us david muir n ac uk n n j c durham ac uk n j c nancy block eng sun com nancy block ndallen r node hub org nigel allen eecs umich edu nigel lemur nei nih gov nathan fc hp com pam sullivan papresco undergrad math uwaterloo ca paul prescod cs rpi edu pam phil umn edu phil lindberg gov ca christopher cisco com peter kane midway ecn uoknor edu pauline odysseus uchicago edu glenn cs washington edu aaron med unc edu pat watkins mosaic shearson com ken robinson magnus acs ohio state edu roger media mit edu kozierok rolf green mathematik uni stuttgart de rolf schreiber cup portal com unx sas com joan stout sca space physics uiowa edu scott delphi com hpl hp com scs demon co uk stuart c squibb cray com sharen iscnvx lmsc lockheed com sharen rund unh edu matthew thompson shipman larc nasa gov floyd shipman shoppa erin caltech edu tim shoppa cs umd edu stephen joseph smith cs1 bradley edu susan steveo world std com steven w orr ivy wpi edu chandra swkirch sun6850 nrl navy mil steven kirchoefer edu liz ccit arizona edu l thomas e taylor chi il us thomas e taylor honeywell com timothy relay nswc navy mil tony samuel uicvm uic edu mary jacobs gte com stern wahlgren van wti com james wahlgren tv tv tek com greg sea pyramid com douglas jhuapl edu informix com william grant unisa edu au brian wing med upenn edu yozzo watson ibm com ralph e yozzo b11 ingr com sharma beach utmb edu hamilton zulu auc dk bjoern u charter misc health diabetes appears charter misc health diabetes unmoderated 1 purpose misc health diabetes provide forum discussion issues pertaining diabetes management , e diet , activities , medicine schedules , blood glucose control , exercise , medical breakthroughs , etc group addresses issues management type \( insulin dependent \) type ii \( non insulin dependent \) diabetes technical discussions general support discussions relevant diabetes welcome 2 postings misc heath diabetes intended discussion purposes , way construed medical advice diabetes serious medical condition requiring direct supervision primary health care physician \( end charter \) steve kirchoefer \( 202 \) 767 code kirchoefer estd nrl navy mil naval research laboratory microwave technology branch washington , dc 5000 electronics sci tech division
grante aquarius rosemount com \( grant edwards \) subject krillean photography nntp posting host aquarius reply grante aquarius rosemount com \( grant edwards \) organization rosemount , inc lines 15 ttrusk mcw edu \( thomas trusk \) writes , say 're atheist suggest proof god politically correct skeptic , better go agnostic , like ! \) self proclaimed atheist position believe god n't claim proof interpret agnostic position beliefs god 's existence grant edwards yow ! yet \? rosemount inc mind submarine ! ! grante aquarius rosemount com
mksol dseg ti com \( michael \) subject chromium weight loss nntp posting host localhost organization texas instruments lines 101 article uicvm uic edu , uicvm uic edu writes data show chromium effective promoting weight loss studies done using chromium flawed biased \( investigators making money marketing \) theoretically really doesnt make sense either claim chromium increase muscle mass decrease fat course , chromium also used cure diabetes , high blood pressure increase muscle mass athletes \( well steroids \) sounds like snake oil 1990 's \) references \? unable find studies state chromium cures reduce amount insulin take high blood pressure never heard claim steroids also never heard claim sounds like making things stretching truth god knows reason somebody piss one time \? hand , really cant hurt anywhere wallet , place bo effects anything pretty dramatic agree chromium picolinate n't likely make fat person thin decisive component overall strategy long term weight control make important contribution good health important exercise \( 11 , 12 \) also avoid fat calories \( 9 , 10 \) chromium picolinate shown reduce fat increase lean muscle \( 1 , 2 , 3 \) bore statistics would n't believe anyway chromium picolinate exceptionally source essential mineral chromium chromium plays vital role body 's tissues hormone insulin weight gain form fat tends impair sensitivity insulin thus , turn , makes harder lose weight \( 4 \) insulin directly protein synthesis protein breakdown muscles \( 5 , 6 \) protein effect insulin tends decline low diets insulin levels decline , results loss muscle organ tissue muscle insulin , chromium picolinate helps preserve muscle burn fat less muscle preservation lean body mass important long term positive effect metabolic rate , helping keep fat 've lost chromium picolinate promotes efficient metabolism aiding \( heat producing \) effects insulin insulin levels serve rough index availability food calories , 's surprising insulin metabolism \( 4 , 7 , 8 \) note say chromium picolinate increases metabolism summary , need change life style order loose weight stay healthy reduce dietary fat consumption 20 calories eating fat makes fat b increase dietary fiber low calories high nutrients c get regular exercise least 3 times week burn calories take chromium picolinate daily lose fat keep muscle references 1 gr , fisher ja , k abstract , american aging association , 21st annual meeting , denver , october 1991 2 evans , gw int j med res 1989 11 163 180 3 page tg , ward tl , southern j animal sci 69 , 1 abstract 403 , 1991 4 p clin physiol 1984 4 267 273 5 kimball sr , jefferson ls diabetes rev 4 773 , 1988 6 nk , kl , jw et al j clin invest 76 , 1985 7 , p biol chem 256 , 1981 8 cs , ak , chambers jb , jr , ray gy metabolism 28 333 , 1979 9 danforth e , jr j clin nutr 41 1132 , 1985 10 mf med 20 183 , 1986 11 r , , e j clin nutr 42 69 , 1985 12 young jc , jl , tw , hp , nb metabolism 35 1048 , 1986 best regards , michael mav dseg ti com
galen med virginia edu \( robert e schmieg \) subject deadly \? \? \? organization university virginia lines 35 kimbark uchicago edu writes friend insists ny quil deadly enough taken suggested something like 20 30 night time would someone normal user ny quil \) , checked hard time believing 250 g acetaminophen 30 mg hcl 10 mg 6 25 mg \( per \) someone settle bet \( package ny quil course \) effect would 20 30 babies \? acetaminophen agent concern overdose otc medication single dose acetaminophen 10 grams greater cause , doses 25 grams potentially fatal hepatic necrosis recall correctly , metabolism acetaminophen high doses involves n n , highly reactive intermediate , reacts groups proteins hepatic used , intermediate starts attacking hepatic proteins resulting hepatic necrosis part acetaminophen toxicity delay \( 2 4 days \) ingestion clinical signs liver damage nice way die taking 20 30 tablets , comes 5 7 5 grams acetaminophen normal adult , would probably cause nausea , vomiting , abdominal pain , loss appetite bob schmieg
falcon \( bjorn r \) subject earwax organization tech lines 29 hbloom moose uvm edu \( heather \) writes try adding drops olive oil ear shower wax couple days , try also safe point ear shower head , allow water six years ago ears clogged wax , probably result much headphone use anyway , clinic cleaned used following procedure 1 inject olive oil ears 2 prevent leakage oil cotton 3 come back hour 4 ears warm , forcefully injected ear \( strange sensation \) 5 done special tools , evidently quite familiar problem large steel syringe special bowl cutout ear take coming without good luck seconded , bjorn r falcon
mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) subject legality placebos \? nntp posting host aisun3 ai uga edu organization ai programs , university georgia , athens lines 18 article netcom com jfh netcom com \( jack hamilton \) writes actually , n't know know anyone actually gotten sugar pill 's common prescribe drug effective something , antibiotics viral infections common placebo presumably matter degree must common prescribe drug chance giving benefit , high probability , large benefit right \? michael covington , associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu university georgia phone 706 542 0358 athens , georgia 30602 7415 u amateur radio n4tmi
sdb ssr com \( scott \) subject burzynski 's antineoplastons reply 's message 21 apr 93 16 54 32 est lines 28 organization research 93111 asuacad bitnet article 93111 asuacad bitnet asuacad bitnet writes good source information burzynski 's method cancer industry prize nominee ralph moss interesting book got moss \? none flyers books mention , none cancer chronicle newsletters mention either also , non profit organization called people cancer , formed purpose allowing cancer patients access information regarding cancer therapies endorsed cancer industry , shown highly promising results \( non toxic \) moss people cancer 's director communications people cancer seems offer pretty questionable information , exactly place cancer patient advised turn \( maybe \) infomation latest catalogue concern treatments shown ineffective cancer , many treatments quite dangerous well sdb sdb ssr com
sdb ssr com \( scott \) subject burzynski 's antineoplastons reply jschwimmer wccnet wcc wesleyan edu 's message 20 apr 93 22 16 24 est lines 44 organization research article jschwimmer 123 wccnet wcc wesleyan edu jschwimmer wccnet wcc wesleyan edu \( josh schwimmer \) writes opinions burzynski 's antineoplastons information current status research would appreciated burzynski 's work promising none 1 5 antineoplastons shown effects experimental cancer nci conducted tests 2 5 mice , result doses high enough produce toxic effects mice effective growth tumor killing \( 1983 1985 \) burzynski claims 10 active factor common 1 5 \( something shown , 10 extracted 2 also n't shown 1 5 actually distinct substances \) nci conducted series tests using 10 standard panel tumors included different cell lines tumors following classes , non small cell small cell lung cancer , colon cancer , cancer central nervous system , melanoma , cancer renal cancer 10 exhibited neither growth dose levels tested necessary process 10 since soluble \( burzynski 's theory requires soluble agents \) , basically \( calls 2 5 \) information carrying , something claims necessary activity 2 1 \( also derived 10 \) 4 1 mixture pa pa \( also \) purchased chemical supply houses 0 09 gram 10 chemically extremely similar , habit forming cause peripheral nasty effects widely known spite similarity , 10 appear tested 's potential induce peripheral many burzynski 's statements origin theory , early research , past present support others work shown untrue sdb sdb ssr com
paj uk co gec mrc \( paul johnson \) subject iridology credence \? \? \? reply paj uk co gec mrc \( paul johnson \) organization gec marconi research centre , great baddow , uk lines 53 article dpw com dpw com \( janice price \) writes saw printed flyer stated person licensed opinions \? much tell person 's health looking eyes \? bogus see sci skeptic faq \( edit \) diagnose things looking eyes classic example , probably others iridology maps parts body onto irises eyes looking patterns , occasional irises supposed able diagnose illnesses body two questions ask alternative therapist 1 work \? 2 evidence \? answer question 1 takes little knowledge medicine evaluate n't know iridology , 've read book , remarkably similar notion except organs body mapped onto soles feet supposed channels running body carrying information energy sort found structures \( always beware words channel energy put alternative practitioner \) answer question 2 rather simpler anecdotal evidence forget ask papers mainstream medical journals ignore bull conspiracy rich doctors suppressing alternative practitioners studies done papers published even positive word licensed flyer interesting one licensed \? \? quite possible real requires license kill someone giving wrong plants eat , many plants contain powerful drugs \( spring mind \) clear whether license extends iridology , suspect ask told means \( licensed \) btw , usual term use different word \? paul johnson \( paj gec mrc co uk \) tel 44 245 73331 ext 3245 ideas others like gec marconi research 0 02 reputable idealist responsible opinions
paj uk co gec mrc \( paul johnson \) subject cats pregnancy reply paj uk co gec mrc \( paul johnson \) organization gec marconi research centre , great baddow , uk lines 25 hello , heard certain disease \( \? \) transmitted cats harm unborn fetus anybody know \? problem cat apartment \? see rec pets cats faq doctor vet information , couple cats transmitted matter , pregnant woman avoid cleaning cat tray wash hands preparing eating meals latter sound advice time course apart , great problem certainly need get rid cats paul paul johnson \( paj gec mrc co uk \) tel 44 245 73331 ext 3245 ideas others like gec marconi research 0 02 reputable idealist responsible opinions
aldridge netcom com \( jacquelin aldridge \) subject thyroidal deficiency organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 18 adobe \( andrea bruno \) writes article mvs draper com sfb2763 mvs draper com \( eileen bauer \) writes thyroxin controls energy production explains , coldness , weight gain also water retention \( possibly around heart \) , changes vision , hair skin among things relation thyroid deficiency depression \? depression thyroid deficiency thyroid blood tests easy , cheap , effective diagnosing thyroid deficiencies jackie
kxgst1 pitt edu \( kenneth gilbert \) subject persistent vs chronic organization university pittsburgh lines 29 article hsdndev harvard edu rind enterprise bih harvard edu \( david rind \) writes article enea1 enea apple com enea1 applelink apple com \( horace enea \) writes anyone tell difference persistent disease chronic one \? example , persistent hepatitis vs chronic hepatitis n't think general distinction rather , two classes chronic hepatitis chronic active hepatitis chronic persistent hepatitis ca n't think disease term persistent used preference chronic much two terms chronic active chronic persistent sound fuzzy , actual distinction two conditions often fairly fuzzy well beg differ chronic active hepatitis implies disease remains active , generally leads liver failure minimum , patient persistently elevated liver enzymes \( call \) chronic persistant hepatitis simply means patient blood transmit infection , shows evidence progressive disease choose , 'd much rather persistant type kenneth gilbert university pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit , programmer !
kxgst1 pitt edu \( kenneth gilbert \) subject pregnency without sex \? lines 15 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 len howard \( tas pegasus com \) wrote well , , doc , sure would want bet life little critters able get thru one layer sweat soaked cotton way programmed task infrequent , yes , unlikely , yes , impossible \? learned long time ago never say never medicine g len howard md , yes , suppose single layer wet cotton would feasible , certainly make condoms cotton ! kenneth gilbert university pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit , programmer !
stephen mont cs missouri edu \( stephen montgomery smith \) subject nose picking keywords nose picking organization university missouri lines 9 two ask 1 \) cause body harm one picks one 's nose \? example , might lead loss ability smell \? 2 \) harmful one eat one 's nose \? stephen
taob r node hub org \( brian tao \) subject pregnency without sex \? organization mugs research development facility x newsreader mugs 3 apr 22 93 matthews oswego oswego edu \( harry matthews \) reply taob r node hub org lines 11 article 1993apr27 182155 23426 oswego oswego edu , harry matthews writes 've heard community swimming pools refered public urinals else going \? swim nude public swimming pool \? \) doubt sperm penetrate material , assuming n't immediately dispersed water currents brian tao taob r node hub org \( r node bbs , 416 249 5366 , free ! \) wave scar utoronto ca \( university toronto \)
taob r node hub org \( brian tao \) subject krillean photography organization mugs research development facility x newsreader mugs 3 apr 22 93 alex vuse vanderbilt edu \( alexander p zijdenbos \) reply taob r node hub org lines 24 article c65oil 436 vuse vanderbilt edu , alexander p zijdenbos writes neither real believer , disbeliever comes called paranormal stuff far i'm concerned , likely existence , instance , god , seems quite accepted societies without scientific basis one \( least , many people \) trying pass god scientific fact kirlian photography 'll admit possible superior intelligence exists elsewhere , people want label intelligence god , i'm going stop anyway , let 's turn theological debate \) convinced serious mistake close mind something , anything , simply n't fit current frame reference history shows many great people , great scientists , people kept open mind ridiculed sceptics read alt fan robert mcelwaine sometime 've never closed minded subscribing group \) brian tao taob r node hub org \( r node bbs , 416 249 5366 , free ! \) wave scar utoronto ca \( university toronto \)
mmm cup portal com \( mark robert thorson \) subject centi milli pedes organization portal system \( tm \) lines 5 remember kid visiting relatives kauai , one things really frightened centipedes 'd told poisonous infrequently one would pop scare heck one came vacuum cleaner seemed like least foot long moving 35 miles hour !
texx ossi com \( texx \) subject need info circumcision , medical cons pros organization open systems solutions inc lines 53 nntp posting host nym ossi com menon boulder colorado edu \( ravi deantha menon \) writes deja vu uiuc edu \( \) writes penile cancer thing completely must going school south pacific island tell check journal urology circumcision articles remember least 1 old jewish man \( cut birth \) developed penile cancer mean , cancer risk great , europe circumcising like crazy , teaching boy keep clean issue little proper hygiene goes long way americans hung penis consider cleaning 's way much like surgical intervention basically unnecessary peter university illinois urbana champaign recall , statistical anomaly sample involved studies certain true europeans would cutting kids right left first , use decent terms ya n't mind sci med , alt sex secondly , absolutely bogus assume american 's hung penis blah , blah think american 's n't care anything think looks nicer ask see response get others still opt circumcision due religious traditions beliefs think easier clean still others daddy think alot blindly dad done many get bogus cancer thing awhile back quack told friend mine would help prevent aids yeah right ! \( \) naive think american 's afraid sexuality oh yeah \? scene navy boot camp di son , awful ! dont ever clean thing \? recruit sir ! di hell ! recruit touch \? di \? recruit cause thats eye god , an' touch happen 40 years ago , happened 2 years ago think americans quite hung sex involved plumbing !
mmm cup portal com \( mark robert thorson \) subject info colonics purification \? organization portal system \( tm \) 1993apr30 1683 newsgate sps mot com lines 25 everything goes comes , personaly n't mind giving body hand experience , george 've got nice collection historical books medical quackery , topic massage recurring theme ordinary massage intended make person feel better , especially muscular joint problems like chiropracty practitioners take technique far extreme , invoking seems quack science justify technique case massage , technique called deep abdominal massage literally attempting massage intestines ! notion food inner surface intestines , releasing cause various disease syndromes vigorous painful procedure , alleged deposits passed ca n't believe idea truth behind ! human intestine new york city sewer pipe ! even , eat half small box , ai n't gonna nothin' sticking inner surface intestine \)
jim zisfein factory com \( jim zisfein \) subject data skull distribution world organization invention factory 's bbs new york city , ny 212 274 8298v 32bis reply jim zisfein factory com \( jim zisfein \) lines 11 gt gary concave cs wits ac za \( gary taylor \) gt hi , trying develop image reconstruction simulation skull could high resolution ct \( computed \) scanning skull many ct scanners algorithm 3 reconstructions plane want reconstructions every 2 degrees planes , could use resultant images create user controlled animation slmr 2 1 e mail jim zisfein factory com \( jim zisfein \)
draper umcc umcc umich edu \( patrick draper \) subject need info circumcision , medical cons pros organization umcc , ann arbor , mi lines 30 nntp posting host umcc umcc umich edu article nym ossi com texx ossi com \( texx \) writes oh yeah \? scene navy boot camp di son , awful ! dont ever clean thing \? recruit sir ! di hell ! recruit touch \? di \? recruit cause thats eye god , an' touch happen 40 years ago , happened 2 years ago think americans quite hung sex involved plumbing ! wow certainly convinced americans ar hung sex one example something probably ran mag enough convince patrick draper nation laws , people draper umcc umich edu flames dev koresh university michigan computer club
uky edu subject pregnency without sex \? nntp posting host uky edu organization university kentucky x newsreader nnr vm 1 3 2 lines 27 article 137 r node hub org taob r node hub org \( brian tao \) writes article 1993apr27 182155 23426 oswego oswego edu , harry matthews writes 've heard community swimming pools refered public urinals else going \? swim nude public swimming pool \? \) doubt sperm penetrate material , assuming n't immediately dispersed water currents brian tao taob r node hub org \( r node bbs , 416 249 5366 , free ! \) wave scar utoronto ca \( university toronto \) go u uk k university gary w gregory u uk k kentucky uky edu u uu kk k kk department ob gyn ms 335 medical center lexington , kentucky
mmatusev radford vak12ed edu \( melissa n matusevich \) subject nose picking organization virginia 's public education network \( radford \) lines 5 n't know causes body harm , 23 years 've teaching nine ten years olds 've never one fall eating many kids regular basis think one looking
turpin cs utexas edu \( russell turpin \) subject meaning atheism , agnosticism \( krillean photography \) organization cs dept , university texas austin lines 23 nntp posting host saltillo cs utexas edu sci med removed followups \( read newsgroups \) article 1993apr30 rosemount com grante aquarius rosemount com \( grant edwards \) writes self proclaimed atheist position believe god n't claim proof interpret agnostic position beliefs god 's existence 's fine words multiple meanings self proclaimed atheist , believe conceptions god inconsistent conflict fact , lack belief conceptions god merely reason believe usually use word agnostic mean someone believes existence god unknown inherently unknowable note positive belief quite different believing god believe god , also believe agnostic claim russell
ceci lysator liu se \( \) subject q wasps \? summary repel wasps \? keywords wasp organization lysator acs linkoping university lines 43 \( cross post rec gardens sci med set follow \( line header , depending kind advice give , \( e mail directly ceci lysator liu se \) problem wasps seem love last summer could n't spend ten fifteen minutes time garden one several wasps would come asking advice repel wasps year wasps built nest stone next one tiny \( poor fellow ! \) take care , give head start last year could n't find nest even gassed nest tiny garden 30 square meter , wasps likely vie territory anything grow , rub skin spread soil repel black yellow bastards \? never mind turns skin purple kills beloved plants , want able spend time garden like everyone else would help remove bird bath \? wasps seem come drink , suppose prey breed black seem afraid wasps , soon wasp season starts , stop coming bath even trying win back patio 15 20 wasps , seem love advice usually get ask wasps , stand still wave arms 've got painful stings trying follow advice also tried use products without , avail still love , come , even i'm middle crowd far two things seem work kill dead run house close doors windows nb n't problem bees bees , wasps patronizing advice redirected dev null ceci ceci lysator liu se number rational hypotheses explain given phenomenon infinite law rm 's zen art motorcycle maintenance
organization penn state university rfm psuvm psu edu subject lithium questions , doctor wants 10 year old distribution world lines 20 article dr pepper east sun com , george crayola east sun com would like know anything folks tell regarding lithium 10 year old son lives ex wife difficulty behavior , , wants try local doctors suggestion would like know whatever important know worry sort thing would like pros cons regarding lithium therapy booklet lithium information center based university wisconsin , feel pro lithium would interested comments necessarily pro side fence concerned father wish well informed get posts like concern son ex w \? \? \? standard impartial procedure ask second opinion son 's condition , son acting games divorced parents \? \? \? \?
mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) subject lithium questions , doctor wants 10 year old nntp posting host aisun3 ai uga edu organization ai programs , university georgia , athens lines 26 article psuvm psu edu rfm psuvm psu edu writes someone writes 10 year old son lives ex wife difficulty behavior , , wants try local doctors suggestion would like know whatever important know worry sort thing would like pros cons regarding lithium therapy get posts like concern son ex w \? \? \? standard impartial procedure ask second opinion son 's condition , son acting games divorced parents \? \? \? \? precisely one wonders unusual strain boy might could causing difficulty behavior standard practice would get second opinion child psychiatrist one would want rule possibility bad behavior psychiatric illness \( disclaimer parent \) michael covington , associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu university georgia phone 706 542 0358 athens , georgia 30602 7415 u amateur radio n4tmi
doyle pitt edu \( howard r doyle \) subject persistent vs chronic organization pittsburgh transplant institute lines 53 article blue cis pitt edu kxgst1 pitt edu \( kenneth gilbert \) writes article hsdndev harvard edu rind enterprise bih harvard edu \( david rind \) writes article enea1 enea apple com enea1 applelink apple com \( horace enea \) writes anyone tell difference persistent disease chronic one \? example , persistent hepatitis vs chronic hepatitis n't think general distinction rather , two classes chronic hepatitis chronic active hepatitis chronic persistent hepatitis ca n't think disease term persistent used preference chronic much two terms chronic active chronic persistent sound fuzzy , actual distinction two conditions often fairly fuzzy well beg differ chronic active hepatitis implies disease remains active , generally leads liver failure minimum , patient persistently elevated liver enzymes \( call \) chronic persistant hepatitis simply means patient blood transmit infection , shows evidence progressive disease choose , 'd much rather persistant type chronic carrier necessarily mean patient chronic persistent anything persons chronic carriers may clinical , biochemical , evidence liver disease , may chronic persistent hepatitis , chronic active hepatitis , cirrhosis , cases chronic persistent hepatitis \( cph \) probably result viral infection , although good number cases cause cannot determined diagnosis cph made basis liver biopsy consists findings portal inflammation , intact limiting plate , occasion isolated foci necrosis contrast chronic active hepatitis \( cah \) inflammation , necrosis , cph , indeed , excellent prognosis choose cah cph question would also choose cph however , david pointed , distinction two neat us would histology sometimes pretty , showing areas compatible cph cah maybe sampling problem maybe continuum n't know howard doyle doyle pitt edu
banschbach vms ocom okstate edu subject info colonics purification \? lines 63 nntp posting host vms ocom okstate edu organization osu college osteopathic medicine article cup portal com , mmm cup portal com \( mark robert thorson \) writes everything goes comes , personaly n't mind giving body hand experience , george 've got nice collection historical books medical quackery , topic massage recurring theme ordinary massage intended make person feel better , especially muscular joint problems like chiropracty practitioners take technique far extreme , invoking seems quack science justify technique case massage , technique called deep abdominal massage literally attempting massage intestines ! notion food inner surface intestines , releasing cause various disease syndromes vigorous painful procedure , alleged deposits passed ca n't believe idea truth behind ! human intestine new york city sewer pipe ! even , eat half small box , ai n't gonna nothin' sticking inner surface intestine \) mark , reasonable post 've seen sci med topic colonic flushing i'm profession uses manipulation \( refined form massage \) treat various human diseases proving manipulation works extremely difficult \( md 's delight pointing \) osteopathic profession seems making better progress chiropractors proving \( scientifically \) work recently study use manipulation relieve cramps women results good better drug treatment \( using physiological measurements , woman 's improvement \) study editors turning point profession 's long struggle prove medical community i'm currently trying get aoa \( american osteopathic association \) supported osteopathic research u also support nutrition education research 've pointed , grant proposal , founder osteopathic medicine \( still \) embraced diet manipulation set apart md 's time pushing drugs \( still md got real drugs service civil war \) decided better way treat human disease since saw cure \( drugs \) worse disease many years study human body , developed manipulation techniques taught students u 's first osteopathic medical school 17 still used manipulation treat \( also diagnose \) human disease used diet prevent human disease i'm trying get osteopathic profession return 's roots beat md 's punch \( speak \) 's md 's current medical practice little understanding diet affects human health change martin banschbach , ph professor biochemistry chairman department biochemistry microbiology osu college osteopathic medicine eat
kmldorf utdallas edu \( george kimeldorf \) subject opinions allergy \( hay fever \) shots \? nntp posting host heath utdallas edu organization univ texas dallas lines 20 article 1993apr29 nntpd2 cxo dec com tung enet dec com \( \) writes started taking allergy shots month ago still wondering getting friend mine told body change every 7 years \( whatever means \) n't need antibody building allergy shots make sense anyone \? btw , someone summarize consumer report february , 1988 article \? reluctant summarize , opinion article says , rather opinion think important enough take trouble go library get article title shot doctors appears pages 96 100 february , 1988 issue consumer reports following excerpt article may entice read whole article often , shots put patient shots , 've got life , former president american academy allergy told cu page 97
menon boulder colorado edu \( ravi deantha menon \) subject need info circumcision , medical cons pros nntp posting host beagle colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 29 texx ossi com \( texx \) writes scene navy boot camp di son , awful ! dont ever clean thing \? recruit sir ! di hell ! recruit touch \? di \? recruit cause thats eye god , an' touch happen 40 years ago , happened 2 years ago think americans quite hung sex involved plumbing ! cute anecdote , hardly indicative population responses 've received post \( men , way \) get impression unless person willing drop masturbate whenever need desire strikes , person hung sex tv programs \( seinfeld \) masturbation \( seinfeld \) condoms handed high schools teenage pregnancy rate high abortion rate states , would assume american 's frightened sex rather bit stupid healthy sexuality require promiscuity requires responsibility deantha
carson u washington edu \( gary \) subject deadly \? \? \? organization university washington , seattle lines 39 nntp posting host carson u washington edu article murdoch acc virginia edu galen med virginia edu \( robert e schmieg \) writes partial deletion potentially fatal hepatic necrosis recall correctly , metabolism acetaminophen high doses involves n n , highly reactive intermediate , reacts groups proteins hepatic used , intermediate starts attacking hepatic proteins resulting hepatic necrosis part acetaminophen toxicity delay \( 2 4 days \) ingestion clinical signs liver damage nice way die nice explanation except n't n causes formation n p \( \) , rather direct two electron addition , one school thought contends oxidative stress rather protein critical factor acetaminophen far drug go , acetaminophen continues one intensely excellent recent review topic found , van de molecular aspects induced mechanism based prevention drug metabolism reviews , 24 \( 3 \) 367 407 \( 1992 \) \( acetaminophen known europe \) could n't agree awful way die toxic dose acetaminophen causes 've heard number descriptions physicians associated poison control centers , describe painful death gary
leland stanford edu \( qi iao \( daniel \) \) subject sleep pulse relaxation roaming sleeping reply cs stanford edu organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa lines 20 posted pulse \( relaxation \) electricity think like pulse relaxation comfort pulse electricity feel overwhelmed feeling comfort , seeing thinking something beautiful another thing sleep , lie facing , palms aside facing surface bed relax , start involuntary nerve firings inside flesh , feel shiver surface skin \( heart beat \) shiver increases , comes head , roam hear \( note always hear high pitch lie bed noise blood running ear \) roam different high pitch , follows shiver body shiver word may called mild vibration quake shiver roam \? use induce body experience \? daniel chung \( mr \) , u
subject help antidepressants requested penguin equinox gen nz \( gordon taylor \) distribution world organization private household , christchurch , new zealand lines 28 hello , small problem friend mine experiencing would appreciate help friend diagnosed severe case depression requiring antidepressants cure main problem side effects far prescribed prozac , , different unbearable side effects prozac gave bad anxiety jitters , impossible sit still minute whilst effect , feelings lost body co ordination similar drunken person brain clouded gave legs panic attacks along ordination occurred know brain closed anyone similar problems suggestions next step \? thankyou advance gordon taylor e mail penguin equinox gen nz
kxgst1 pitt edu \( kenneth gilbert \) subject persistent vs chronic organization university pittsburgh lines 39 article blue cis pitt edu doyle pitt edu \( howard r doyle \) writes chronic carrier necessarily mean patient chronic persistent anything persons chronic carriers may clinical , biochemical , evidence liver disease , may chronic persistent hepatitis , chronic active hepatitis , cirrhosis , cases chronic persistent hepatitis \( cph \) probably result viral infection , although good number cases cause cannot determined diagnosis cph made basis liver biopsy consists findings portal inflammation , intact limiting plate , occasion isolated foci necrosis contrast chronic active hepatitis \( cah \) inflammation , necrosis , cph , indeed , excellent prognosis choose cah cph question would also choose cph however , david pointed , distinction two neat us would histology sometimes pretty , showing areas compatible cph cah maybe sampling problem maybe continuum n't know darn think understand something someone knows pathology burst bubble \( 'd better start talking diseases , 'll really get depressed seriously though , wonder someone cph would end getting biopsy first place \? understanding \( feel free correct \) enzymes worst mildly elevated , overall normal hepatic function would think clue might history prior infection positive sag indeed continuum cah , distinction merely one pathology prognosis , otherwise identical clinical features \? kenneth gilbert university pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit , programmer !
werner soe berkeley edu \( john werner \) subject help antidepressants requested organization uc berkeley school education lines 39 distribution world nntp posting host soe berkeley edu article penguin equinox gen nz , penguin equinox gen nz \( gordon taylor \) wrote prozac gave bad anxiety jitters , impossible sit still minute tried prozac months ago , insomnia , anxiety jitters probably could lived insomnia prozac done good , provided tiny benefit maybe person prescribed n't know much gave dose n't work i'm seeing psychiatrist put zoloft \( another serotonin inhibitor like prozac \) one pill day \( \) seemed help i'm trying day zoloft fewer side effects prozac think doctor said 4 people taking zoloft side effects problem i'm minor gi distress , nothing annoying hopefully zoloft work maybe friend try one next psychiatrist 's strategy seems first try one serotonin drugs , usually prozac works , great works many side effects , try zoloft maybe paxil serotonin drugs n't work , try one like suggestions next step \? doctor knows something antidepressants make big difference psychiatrist claims gps fps n't much experience area , 've seen i'm inclined believe think know antidepressants people family practitioner 's office disclaimer i'm doctor know comes talking psychiatrist reading sci med john werner werner soe berkeley edu uc berkeley school education 510 596
stanley oce orst edu \( john stanley \) subject krillean photography organization university computing services oregon state university lines 7 nntp posting host oce orst edu article 12a r node hub org taob r node hub org writes article c65oil 436 vuse vanderbilt edu , alexander p zijdenbos writes neither real believer , disbeliever comes one \( least , many people \) trying pass god please keep crap sci image processing \?
leland stanford edu \( paul dennis \) subject antidepressants organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa lines 14 without thread going zoloft stimulating unfortunate therapy trial error , help , lot people using side effects many medications help manage conditions hang , maybe someday brain chemistry set available serotonin questions answers please , flames enough deal \)
haynes cats ucsc edu \( jim haynes \) subject total partial scam \? organization university california santa cruz lines 17 nntp posting host hobbes ucsc edu 's chiropractor stand middle shopping mall , offering free examinations part process involves multiple jointed sensor arm computer says computer sounding voice digitize left digitize right digitize c7 please stand spine neutral position i'm wondering whether n't really measure anything computer voice impress victims , whether measuring something chiropractors think useful measure haynes cats ucsc edu haynes cats bitnet ya talk ya wanna , 's dif ! aint ! ya gotta know territory ! meredith willson music man
romdas uclink berkeley edu \( ella baff \) subject scam \? organization university california , berkeley lines 32 distribution world nntp posting host uclink berkeley edu jim haynes wants know following scam 's chiropractor stand middle shopping mall , offering free examinations part process involves multiple jointed sensor arm computer says computer sounding voice digitize left digitize right digitize c7 please stand spine neutral position i'm wondering whether n't really measure anything computer voice impress victims , whether measuring something chiropractors think useful measure earth sci med looks like duck quacks like duck total scam since beginning , chiropractor tried sell subluxation problem sell adjustments solution chiropractic subluxation delusional diagnosis adjustments extension constitute delusional medicine wide spectrum chiropractic techniques methods detecting spinal demons unique computer approach attempt device nothing subluxation detector end amazingly show potential suffer vs subluxation silent killer ! john badanes , dc , ca romdas uclink berkeley edu
rochester ny us \( mr \( private account \) \) subject vasectomy health effects women \? reply rochester ny us organization private uucp site x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 25 28 apr 93 20 54 04 gmt yang earlham edu wrote article 1993apr27 nic csu net , nermal santarosa edu \( eric \) writes anyone know studies done long term health effects man 's vasectomy female partner \? 've heard studies , speculation earth would effect women 's health \? 's absurd idea 've heard since ted kaldis 's claim 35 , 000 people would march washington ok , one point greatly reduced chance pregnancy 's josh well , might another since i'm sterile wife enjoy sex without fear getting pregnant \) , \( \( \) \( \) \( \( \) \( uucp rutgers ! ur ! ! compu erve internet rochester ny us ,
sdl linus mitre org \( steven litvintchouk \) subject antihistamine sleep aid reply cfaks ux1 cts eiu edu 's message fri , 30 apr 1993 20 28 08 gmt nntp posting host rigel mitre org organization mitre corporation , bedford , 1993apr30 ux1 cts eiu edu lines 25 article 1993apr30 ux1 cts eiu edu cfaks ux1 cts eiu edu \( alice sanders \) writes taken antihistamines nights , n't start effect \? used take one every night allergies could n't figure developed bad insomnia insomnia known , relatively infrequent , side effect diphenhydramine people , occur hand , people build tolerance antihistamine extended use \( allergy sufferers often switched one antihistamine another avoid \) steven litvintchouk mitre corporation 202 burlington road bedford , 01730 fone \( 617 \) 271 arpa sdl mitre org uucp linus ! sdl
sdl linus mitre org \( steven litvintchouk \) subject nose picking reply stephen mont cs missouri edu 's message 1 may 93 03 59 59 gmt nntp posting host rigel mitre org organization mitre corporation , bedford , lines 21 article stephen mont stephen mont cs missouri edu \( stephen montgomery smith \) writes 1 \) cause body harm one picks one 's nose \? example , might lead loss ability smell \? may good way catch cold 's easy pick cold viruses fingers , either touching contaminated surface , shaking hands someone cold putting fingers nose transfer viruses nose steven litvintchouk mitre corporation 202 burlington road bedford , 01730 fone \( 617 \) 271 arpa sdl mitre org uucp linus ! sdl
doyle pitt edu \( howard r doyle \) subject persistent vs chronic organization pittsburgh transplant institute lines 31 article blue cis pitt edu kxgst1 pitt edu \( kenneth gilbert \) writes seriously though , wonder someone cph would end getting biopsy first place \? understanding \( feel free correct \) enzymes worst mildly elevated , overall normal hepatic function would think clue might history prior infection positive sag indeed continuum cah , distinction merely one pathology prognosis , otherwise identical clinical features \? chronic persistent hepatitis usually diagnosed someone liver biopsy patient persistently elevated serum transaminases months bout acute viral hepatitis , someone found persistently elevated transaminases routine screening tests degree elevation \( serum transaminases \) trivial , much ten times normal blood usually normal rule , patients cph clinical signs liver disease chronic active hepatitis also asymptomatic minimally symptomatic , least initially , 's 's important tell apart means biopsy patient cph needs patient cah needs treated howard doyle doyle pitt edu
cs cmu edu \( jha \) subject intersection syndrome \? nntp posting host sp cs cmu edu organization school computer science , carnegie mellon lines 17 hi went tuesday diagnosed intersection syndrome prescribed want know disease drug thanks
j thornton uws edu au \( jason thornton \) subject cancer organization university western sydney , lines 4 could someone give information cause , clinical manifestations treatment type cancer thank advance , jason
ashwin gatech edu \( ashwin ram \) subject often kids fall sick \? etc reply ashwin cc gatech edu \( ashwin ram \) organization georgia institute technology , college computing lines 35 20 month son started falling sick quite often every since started going day care home first year fall sick even seems like sort cold flu pretty much month time cold leads ear infection well , result ends antibiotics 3 weeks 4 know kids day care fall sick often , beginning wonder often often really , whether son susceptible lower immunity average , longer term effects constantly sick taking antibiotics , build resistance really enjoys day care think 's great , beginning wonder whether think getting nanny studies help answer questions \? often kids first , second third years fall sick \? often get colds , , ear infections \? data home care vs day care \? sick build immunity \( leading less illness later \) , make kids weaker \( leading illness later \) , long term effect \? taking antibiotics regular basis negative long term effects \? one tell child susceptible illness normal , one \? way build immunity resistance \? data , information advice relating would much appreciated thanks lot ashwin
lawrence curcio lc2b andrew cmu edu subject athlete 's heart organization doctoral student , public policy management , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 16 nntp posting host andrew cmu edu 've read exercise makes heart pump blood stroke , also makes heart slower , order make greater volume , diagnosed av block , slow heart rate pvc 's , told something different says heart rate associated electrical properties hear muscle , size exercise lowers heart rate increases stroke volume , effects unrelated except common source av block , asserts , another electrical effect , even exercise pvc 's also common runners ekg puts class trained athletes also heart patients n't strange , though \? beneficial aspects athlete 's heart \? good \? worried , curious , larry c
diane n109 z1 com \( diane \) subject fever lines 5 cause cures fever respectfully requested thanks ! origin another kit \( 1 109 232 \)
banschbach vms ocom okstate edu subject often kids fall sick \? etc lines 91 nntp posting host vms ocom okstate edu organization osu college osteopathic medicine article ashwin leo gatech edu , ashwin edu \( ashwin ram \) writes 20 month son started falling sick quite often every since started going day care home first year fall sick even seems like sort cold flu pretty much month time cold leads ear infection well , result ends antibiotics 3 weeks 4 know kids day care fall sick often , beginning wonder often often really , whether son susceptible lower immunity average studies help answer questions \? kids stayed home 1st grade , infection incidence much lower exposure lower studies suggest early exposure various infectious diseases probably beneficial exposure adult carries much risk mortality \( , etc \) often kids first , second third years fall sick \? often get colds , , ear infections \? data home care vs day care \? daycare always carry higher exposure risk home care sick build immunity \( leading less illness later \) , make kids weaker \( leading illness later \) , long term effect \? exposure infectious organisms build immunity many viruses new strain requires another immune response \( new antibody production \) addition , antibody levels tend decline time needed keep antibody levels high chronic immune response lead rare unlikely occur children taking antibiotics regular basis negative long term effects \? yes , chronic use antibiotics adverse effect good bacteria supposed present body health effects depletion good bacteria debated topic medical community physicians seeming discount health effects chronic antibiotic use \( view support \) one tell child susceptible illness normal , one \? chronic infection adult child needs worked \( opinion \) physicians feel chronic infection child normal exposure lack prior immunity many infectious diseases share view physicians also suspect diet plays big role infection frequency severity exposure infectious agent result severe infection strong immune response minimize length time needed deal infection well symptoms associated infection way build immunity resistance \? five major nutrients responsible good strong immune response infectious agents protein , vitamin c , vitamin , iron zinc american diet low protein rarely problem vitamin , vitamin c , iron zinc often low lack adequate pool \( nutrient reserve \) impair immune response iron know low kids \( vitamin \) distinct biochemical tests run check status nutrients patient problem chronic severe infection serum iron status , dark adaptation vitamin status , red blood cell zinc zinc status vitamin c status attempted work posts five nutrients role infection news group well others participate e mail 've worked far best advice try find physician recognizes critical role diet plays human immune response may also able get help nutritionist anyone call nutritionist want find someone \( like \) formal training education nutrition many ph programs u offer degrees nutrition 's need look also call nutritionists biochemical training needed run specialized nutritional assessment tests good getting general dietary advice however data , information advice relating would much appreciated thanks lot ashwin martin banschbach , ph graduate degree biochemistry nutrition vpi developer course human nutrition medical students
organization arizona state university asuacad bitnet subject burzynski 's antineoplastons 93111 asuacad bitnet ssr com lines 37 93122 article ssr com , sdb ssr com \( scott \) says article 93111 asuacad bitnet asuacad bitnet writes moss people cancer 's director communications people cancer seems offer pretty questionable information , exactly place cancer patient advised turn advise people turn cancer information \? \( maybe \) infomation latest catalogue concern treatments shown ineffective cancer , many treatments quite dangerous well seems 've offered circular refutation moss 's organization shown information latest book pac questionable \? could agencies medical industries moss showing operating major vested interests whether one believes vested interests real , whether actually shape medical research seperate argument one sees possibility , however , interests exist , information put pac refuted medical industry n't hold much weight , fact nih n't find effective n't make much sense course n't ! tend faith word patients alive told years ago would dead cancer soon fighting like hell keep clinic open , credit treatment survival anyone looks nih 's record investigation cancer therapies easily see strange knack find ing relatively cheap therapies dangerous useless gn
marco sdf lonestar org \( steve giammarco \) subject help info \( allergies \) organization sdf public access unix dallas , tx 214 436 lines 14 doc handed samples \( brand tablet corp \) tried find pdr avail remember mentioned drug relatively new us available overseas quite time looking mostly side effect , , mode action differs hismanal email newsgroup fine thanx advance steve giammarco peterson lane dallas tx marco sdf lonestar org
thomas uucp \( thomas lapp \) subject nose picking organization , newark , de , u lines 22 stephen mont cs missouri edu \( stephen montgomery smith \) writes 1 \) cause body harm one picks one 's nose \? example , might lead loss ability smell \? 2 \) harmful one eat one 's nose \? 've seen children wondered something mucus one 's nose collects \( filters \) particles going , child picks material , might effect , since body airborne diseases mucus , body might generate antibodies small invasion \? maybe children n't get sick often \? \) tom internet ! thomas udel edu thomas udel edu \( home \) lapp dnet dupont com \( work \) osi c us mci lapp id uucp ucbvax , mcvax , uunet ! udel ! ! thomas location newark , de , usa
rob welder cccbbs uucp \( rob welder \) subject ear distribution world organization cincinnati computer connection cincinnati , oh 513 752 1055 reply rob welder cccbbs uucp \( rob welder \) lines 12 ashwin cc gatech edu \( ashwin ram \) ar instrument really work \? supposed give absolutely ! ya n't end ! \( accurate technique important \) cccbbs ! rob welder uceng uc edu 1 02 41 see \? hurts little !
wang ssd intel com \( wen lin wang \) subject often kids fall sick \? etc nntp posting host organization supercomputer systems division \( ssd \) , intel lines 83 article ashwin leo gatech edu ashwin cc gatech edu \( ashwin ram \) writes 20 month son started falling sick quite often every since started going day care home first year fall sick even seems like sort cold flu pretty much month time cold leads ear infection well , result ends antibiotics 3 weeks 4 know kids day care fall sick often , sounds pretty familiar posted similar cries last september caroline entered daycare two , , continuous colds since last march spring approaches , colds slowed meanwhile grew relaxed colds doctor diagnosed ear infection twice antibiotics \( time due sinus infection , wished give awful septra \) studies help answer questions \? 'net , read newsgroup often , round questions like every month might formal studies like , bear academic experience okay \? often kids first , second third years fall sick \? often get colds , , ear infections \? gee , bet 50 50 'll hear cases data home care vs day care \? pretty sure , insulated child home less , child still face world one day sick build immunity \( leading less illness later \) , 's believe comfort caroline get colds sure learned stick hand kid 's mouth let kids cold virus easily however , hope immune system stronger fight diseases , would less severely affected everytime cold , make sure blow nose frequently give night good rest \( thanks suggestions net \) 's care needs us try hard keep antibiotics twice ped gave choice decide whether would antibiotics waited long enough \( 3 4 days \) see fought illness understand n't much choice child pain high fever make kids weaker \( leading illness later \) , long term effect \? child n't rely antibiotics fight sickness everytime , child stronger taking antibiotics regular basis negative long term effects \? 'll leave expert one tell child susceptible illness normal , one \? child entered daycare , i'm pretty sure first 6 months hardest \( , get used boy , hate see typing sentence recall read something like last september , said , 'oh , sure ' , get used , \) however , hear people say get better year two looking forward healthier next winter gets warmer , hope get break soon way build immunity resistance \? eat well , sleep well try use antibiotics absolutely necessary good luck wen lin
subject cure dry skin \? husc8 harvard edu \( oren haber \) nntp posting host husc8 harvard edu lines 49 pbs org writes article morrow stanford edu , mou stanford edu \( alex mou \) writes hi , skin dry general serious part located knees skin looks like segmented segmentation actually happens beneath skin would like know cure matter fact , saw dermatologist day , , asked dry skin 'd spending small fortune various creams , , dry skin treatments said needed large jar vaseline soak lukewarm tub water 10 minutes \( 10 minutes ! \) massage vaseline , trap moisture standard advice texts soak part greatly increases inconvenience n't bother unless n't work otherwise hard part finding time rub vaseline properly exactly , adds ritual aspect , important us patients \( posters , n't bother repeat rationale soak \) 's done right , remain greasy stick greasy matter vaseline \( , \) famous one text states greasy dry skin cream , effective try 's got cheaper spending 30 8 oz try , least maintenance \( preventive \) therapy natural much less greasy cheap \( n't buy expensive mixture \) 've commented , poorly characterized mixture hydrocarbons found biological systems \( inherently bad , smell close , even hand \) , partially absorbed body remain months , associations cancer n't panic , also n't believe 's god 's gift human skin oren haber
antonio qualcom qualcomm com \( franklin antonio \) subject ear thermometer nntp posting host qualcom qualcomm com organization qualcomm , inc , san diego , ca lines 39 article ashwin leo gatech edu ashwin cc gatech edu \( ashwin ram \) writes instrument really work \? supposed give fast accurate temperature reading ear far ear one insert instrument \? worth 100 currently selling \? , work well doctor started using one recently , thought concept amazing bought one thing works reading infrared emissions ear drum ear drum hotter ear canal walls , point thing carefully means top ear straighten ear canal , inserting thing , pushing button unfortunately , many things go wrong almost impossible aim thing correctly get readings differ 2 degrees , may differ oral thermometer 2 degrees talked one nurses doctor 's office recently , said n't like either , reasons give instruction tug ear , correct insertion feels like , said thought impossible correctly one 's self also said nurses complained company inaccurate readings , someone company told take great care clean infrared window end probe alcohol time time demonstrated prior reading temperature , managed get reading within 0 5 degree oral temperature took home driving dr 's office also noticed tha nurses click button , remove probe immediately causes wrong readings experience , leave probe good 1 2 seconds clicking button get good measurement nurse talked agreed suspect many people n't realize , therefore get bad readings yet another reason short , 's great idea may work folks , believe n't work well person wants take temperature
renee cup portal com \( renee linda roberts \) subject muscle spasms post surgically organization portal system \( tm \) distribution world lines 18 ankle reconstruction \( lateral side ankle , along video ankle \( interesting watch , say least \) since , periodic muscle spasms \( , twitching fast \) muscle groups along lateral side , along top foot tx sulfate produced ringing ears , help spasms , discernable help spasms ideas \? one thing short leg cast , heat answer renee roberts
cleveland freenet edu \( bonita kale \) subject help kidney stones organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 21 reply cleveland freenet edu \( bonita kale \) nntp posting host slc4 ins cwru edu previous article , jeffs sr hp com \( jeff silva \) says told doctor time pain comparable childbirth \( yes , male doctor , i'm sure women disagree \) 'd really like know truth , maybe women baby kidney stone could fill 've three children pain different degree think depends impressed awful kidney stone seemed , saw relative one bet depend , probably worse others pain bonita kale
cleveland freenet edu \( bonita kale \) subject arthritis diabetes organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 37 reply cleveland freenet edu \( bonita kale \) nntp posting host slc4 ins cwru edu , diagnosed diabetes \( type ii , guess insulin \) 've trying read two conditions , really surprises experiments done little known losing weight appears imperative diabetes advisable arthritis \( least , women arthritis \) , , course , conditions make weight loss advisable part reason weight gain , i'm almost afraid lose weight , matter gentle sensible diet use \( last one 1800 2000 calories , eight small meals \) , weight wo n't go gradually stay instead , drops , comes back much interest , like bread waters experience , 's hard encouraging husband suggest make gradual possible meanwhile , experts recommend sugar , others , fat , others , balanced diet 's almost impossible tell writings parts recommendations supposed help condition , merely ideas expert thinks nifty imagination , old conditions poorly understood \? i'm used pediatrician talk \( 's give 'll get well \) expectations high \? bonita kale
med unc edu \( david c \) subject quality management nntp posting host med unc edu organization unc ch school medicine lines 1
leland stanford edu \( jamie \) subject bacteria invasion swimming pools organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa lines 12 struck past week stomach bug fever went away quickly treated antibiotic pharmacist told antibiotic effective wide variety gram negative bacteria wondering might acquired bacteria could hang swimming pool water , would chlorine kill \? feeling better , j leland stanford edu
matthews oswego edu \( harry matthews \) subject need info circumcision , medical cons pros organization suny oswego lines 3 bullshit ! ! !
vm temple edu \( james \) subject drop drawers doctor see organization temple university lines 26 nntp posting host vm temple edu organization temple university x newsreader nnr vm 1 3 2 last week went see never met doctor , know soon arrived , somebody showed examining room handed told \( waist , exact \) wait doctor usual drill go doctor first time \? n't much experience going doctors \( knock wood \) , couple occasions 've gone new doctor , met clothes first , introduced , asked took history , patients usually expected get naked meeting doctor first time \? personally , 'd prefer meet doctor something remotely resembling condition parity establish identity person wears clothes dropping drawers nothing else , time spend self conscious , ill ease vulnerable condition person bare bottom talking somebody fully clothed anybody besides regard get naked first talk attitude insensitive \? also , unusual \? james email vm temple edu
kxgst1 pitt edu \( kenneth gilbert \) subject persistent vs chronic organization university pittsburgh lines 29 article blue cis pitt edu doyle pitt edu \( howard r doyle \) writes chronic persistent hepatitis usually diagnosed someone liver biopsy patient persistently elevated serum transaminases months bout acute viral hepatitis , someone found persistently elevated transaminases routine screening tests degree elevation \( serum transaminases \) trivial , much ten times normal blood usually normal rule , patients cph clinical signs liver disease chronic active hepatitis also asymptomatic minimally symptomatic , least initially , 's 's important tell apart means biopsy patient cph needs patient cah needs treated went back chapter cecil chronic hepatitis seems indeed cases cph persistant viral hepatitis , whereas multitude potential probable causes cah \( viral , drugs , alcohol , autoimmune , etc \) physicians seem variety electing biopsy someone 's liver personally , think patient asymptomatic , slight normal pt , one simply follow closely add potential risks biopsy others may well biopsy patient , thus providing samples study would interesting see anyone 's done decision analysis kenneth gilbert university pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit , programmer !
cleveland freenet edu \( mike e romano \) subject drop drawers doctor see organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 11 nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu unusual practice doctor also member colony sir , admit rule every poet fool may serve show , every fool poet pope
pgf space mit edu \( peter g ford \) subject help viewing voyager cd roms mac organization mit center space research lines 30 distribution world reply pgf space mit edu nntp posting host mit edu article morrow stanford edu , forsythe stanford edu \( david \) writes two half years ago purchased set cd roms university colorado lab atmos space physics space sciences sampler voyagers outer planets pixel pusher could never get past messages something like file pds label , please fill following info \( bunch slots zeros \) yet , could open image file word see label file beginning compressed image format used voyager disks \( yet \) supported macintosh display software know however , exist program convert images format recognized recent versions pixel pusher nih image called pds decompress available via anonymous ftp pub directory mit edu 18 75 0 80 binhex stuffit archive contains application , think c source , brief description recent version nih image \( 1 48 \) may loaded jpl nasa gov , located hqx pub directory archive also contains source code , documentation , located hqx archive directory regards , peter g ford manager , microwave nasa planetary data system
kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov subject life mars \? \? \? organization nasa jsc gm2 , space shuttle program office x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 12 know 's wishful thinking , current president , last fall life mars \? maybe daniel goldin , nasa administrator , 24 august 1992 ken jenks , nasa jsc gm2 , space shuttle program office kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov \( 713 \) 483 4368 man makes mistakes usually make anything edward john phelps , american diplomat lawyer \( 1895 \)
lmsc lockheed com \( j \) subject drag free satellites organization lockheed missiles spaces co lines 4 regarding drag free satellites , joe cain gives good description concept however concept navy 's triad satellite succesfully used drag free control drag free control integral part stanford gravity probe b spacecraft , due fly 1999 also part european step satellite jeff v
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject want billion organization u toronto zoology lines 35 article mojo eng umd edu sysmgr king eng umd edu writes 'd need launch hlvs send large amounts stuff know private titan pad \? nobody interested launching things cheaply buy titans n't take many titan pay laser launcher large gas gun development program big dumb booster , would far better cost effectiveness henry , made assumption gets wins n't spend billion dollars , since prize going scaled match level effort spend billion pretty quickly buying titan launches 's , buy titans , prize money entire return investment develop new launch system , uses , prize icing cake doubt much billion dollar prize going show enough return justify investment constrained use current us launchers \( would surely buy american clause rules prize , since would pretty well government funded \) 're going invest front money building new launch system rather pissing away existing ones first importance go bankrupt could get couple tuned lunar environment \? wanna prospecting i'm i'm sure would offer develop lunar tuned system deliver couple couple hundred million dollars svr4 resembles high speed collision henry spencer u toronto zoology svr3 sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
18084tm msu edu \( tom \) subject moonbase race x added forwarded space digest organization via international space university original sender isu vacation venari cs cmu edu distribution sci lines 22 george william herbert sez hmm 1 billion , lesse probably launch 100 tons leo 200 million , five years , gives 20 tons lunar surface one way say five tons return vehicle fuel , bigger mercury something \( might get low two tons \) , leaving fifteen tons one man habitat year 's supplies \? gee , sort mass margins build systems shelf another hundred million tops leaves 700 million profit like idea 8 \) let 's see guys push someone make happen 8 \) 8 \) like optimism , george n't know raising kind dough , need people split work , give ring \) living alone year moon sounds horrid , 'd even try , got bigger cut \) tommy mac tom mcwilliams 517 355 2178 wk radius vision increases , 18084tm ibm cl msu edu 336 9591 hm circumference mystery grows
fiddler concertina eng sun com \( steve hix \) subject true globe , makes \? organization sun lines 18 nntp posting host concertina article bill xpresso uucp bill xpresso uucp \( bill vance \) writes known quite earth actually pear shaped globular spherical anyone make globe accurate actual shape , landmass configuration long lat lines etc \? variance perfect model earth small enough fit home would probably globe buy close enough things important give away everybody else none left dieter car salesman
klaes verga enet dec com \( larry klaes \) subject electronic journal asa \( ejasa \) april 1993 keywords venus , venera , soviet , probes organization digital equipment corporation lines 663 electronic journal astronomical society atlantic volume 4 , number 9 april 1993 table contents asa membership article submission information soviets venus , part 3 larry klaes asa membership information electronic journal astronomical society atlantic \( ejasa \) published monthly astronomical society atlantic , incorporated asa non profit organization dedicated advancement amateur professional astronomy space exploration , well social educational needs members asa membership application open interest astronomy space exploration members receive journal asa \( hardcopy sent united states mail duplicate electronic journal \) astronomical league 's reflector magazine members may also purchase discount subscriptions astronomy sky telescope magazines information membership , may contact society following addresses astronomical society atlantic \( asa \) c center high angular resolution astronomy \( chara \) georgia state university \( gsu \) atlanta , georgia u asa chara gsu edu asa bbs \( 404 \) 321 , 300 1200 2400 baud telephone society recording \( 404 \) 264 leave address receive latest society news asa officers council president eric greene vice president jeff secretary treasurer mike directors becky long , , bob vickers council bill , michele , barry , bill black , mike , jeff , frank , larry klaes , ken , jim rouse , , john , , harry taylor , gary thompson , cindy weaver , bob vickers article submissions article submissions ejasa astronomy space exploration welcome please send line articles ascii format larry klaes , ejasa editor , following net addresses society addresses klaes verga enet dec com ! decwrl ! verga enet dec com ! klaes klaes verga dec decwrl enet dec com klaes verga enet dec com uunet uu net may also use addresses ejasa back issue requests , letters editor , asa membership information sending article submissions , please certain include either network regular mail address reached , telephone number , brief biographical sketch back issues ejasa also available asa anonymous ftp site chara gsu edu \( 131 96 5 29 \) directory pub ejasa disclaimer submissions welcome consideration articles submitted , unless otherwise stated , become property astronomical society atlantic , incorporated though articles used profit , subject editing , , changes copying ejasa , part whole , encouraged , provided clear attribution made astronomical society atlantic , electronic journal , author \( \) opinions expressed ejasa necessarily asa journal copyright \( c \) 1993 astronomical society atlantic , incorporated soviets venus part 3 copyright \( c \) 1993 larry klaes author gives permission group individual wishing distribute article , long proper credit given , author notified , article reproduced entirety north pole ! june 2 7 , 1983 , two soviet union 's mighty proton rockets lifted space center republic aboard boosters new breed venera probe planet venus designated venera 15 16 , probes meant landing yet spherical craft venerean surface radar map planet detail orbit accomplish task , basic venera design modified numerous areas central bus core made one meter \( 39 37 inches \) longer carry two tons propellant required braking orbit , double fuel carried venera 9 10 orbiters eight years earlier extra solar panels added give vehicles power handling large amounts data would created radar imaging dish shaped communications antennae also made one meter larger properly transmit information earth atop buses , landers usually placed , installed 1 4 6 meter \( 4 62 19 8 foot \) , 300 kilogram \( 660 pound \) v side looking radar antennae radar system , possibly terrain imaging version nuclear powered satellites used soviets earth ocean surveillance , would able map venus' surface resolution one two kilometers \( 0 62 1 2 miles \) soviet imaging parameters vast improvement united states pioneer venus orbiter , could reveal objects smaller 75 kilometers \( 45 miles \) diameter resolution comparable similar observations made 300 meter \( 1 , 000 foot \) radio telescope island puerto rico , orbiters would examining northern pole venus region either pioneer venus appeared contain number potentially interesting geological features worthy investigation october 10 , 1983 , interplanetary journey 330 million kilometers \( 198 million miles \) two mid course corrections , venera 15 fired braking rockets venus place polar orbit 1 , 000 65 , 000 kilometers \( 600 39 , 000 miles \) around planet , completing one revolution every twenty four hours venera 16 followed suit four days later twin probes thus became venus' first polar circling spacecraft radar operations began october 16 venera 15 october 20 venera 16 sixteen minutes every orbit north pole , probes would make radar sweep surface 150 kilometers \( ninety miles \) wide nine thousand kilometers \( 5 , 400 miles \) long craft would head highest part orbits south pole batteries transmit data back two large soviet antennae earth strip information took eight hours process computer end main missions july 1984 , veneras mapped 115 million square kilometers \( 46 million square miles \) , thirty percent entire planet venera 15 16 revealed venus surface geology complex shown pioneer venus late 1970s numerous hills , mountains , ridges , valleys , plains spread across landscape , many apparently formed lava erupting volcanoes last one billion years planetary terms makes venerean surface rather young hundreds craters detected well , largest created meteorites \( would better term \) least fourteen kilometers \( 8 4 miles \) across , due venus' dense atmosphere disagreements u soviet scientists origins certain surface features example , owners declared 96 kilometer \( 57 6 mile \) wide crater summit 10 , 800 meter \( 35 , 640 foot \) high maxwell , mountain planet , result meteorite impact american scientists , hand , felt crater proof maxwell huge volcano sitting northern continent ishtar terra event , u decided wait making verdicts venus arrival radar probe , scheduled later decade originally named venus orbiting imaging radar \( \) , initial design scaled back craft venus radar mapper \( \) eventually machine would called magellan , portuguese navigator ferdinand magellan \( circa \) vehicle would map entire planet even detail veneras time , however , soviet probes maintained distinction radar imaging ability veneras next v radar antenna omega altimeter fourier infrared spectrometer , latter measuring world 's temperatures majority areas covered registered five hundred degrees celsius \( 932 degrees fahrenheit \) , locations two hundred degrees hotter , possibly indicating current volcanic activity probes also found clouds poles five eight kilometers \( three 4 8 miles \) lower equator contrast , polar air sixty kilometers \( thirty six miles \) altitude five twenty degrees warmer equatorial atmosphere similar heights main mapping mission ended july 1984 , plans least one veneras radar image surface latitudes unfortunately idea come pass , orbiters may possessed enough attitude control gas perform operation venera 15 16 ceased transmission march 1985 , leaving soviet institute electronics six hundred kilometers \( 360 miles \) radar data tape sort atlas twenty seven maps northern hemisphere venus venus balloon years thick atmosphere venus tempting target scientists wished explore planet 's mantle air balloon borne instruments professor jacques french space agency centre national d'etudes \( \) proposed idea far back 1967 , joint french soviet balloon mission canceled 1982 nevertheless , late year 1984 , dreams would eventually come true two proton rockets sent december 15 21 , soviet union provided western observers first clear , full views booster launching every soviet venus probe since 1975 one many complex mission unmanned probes launched space december named vega 1 2 , contraction words venera russian word halley spacecraft one mission perform , also one celestial objective explore , namely comet halley famous periodic traveler making latest return inner regions solar system since last visit since widely believed comets icy remains formation solar system five billion years ago , scientists around world gave high priority exploring one bodies actually come close earth comets cold dark outer solar system , like halley , various forces fall towards sun , circle millennia spewing ice debris millions kilometers warmth solar encounter soviet union , along european space agency \( esa \) japan 's institute space astronautical science \( isas \) , wish miss first opportunity human history make close examination halley esa would using cylindrical giotto probe make dangerously close photographic flyby comet , japan 's first deep space craft sakigake \( pioneer \) \( comet \) would view halley much safer distance scientists united states also desired study comet vantage space probe , one time vessel powered solar sails ion engines however , government budget cuts nasa canceled american efforts u would make primarily earth based observations sharing data nations , though instrument named dust counter mass analyzer \( \) , designed chicago university professor john simpson , added soviet mission may 1984 answer halley vegas instead building entirely new craft mission , soviets decided modify venera bus design encounter comet performing advanced venus mission along way vega 1 2 reached venus , buses would drop one lander balloon use mass shrouded planet swing towards comet halley , much u probe mariner 10 used venus flyby mercury eleven years earlier soviet craft would head halley , helping location comet 's erupting nucleus giotto probe dive 605 kilometers \( 363 miles \) away march 1986 planned , two vegas arrived venus june 1985 vega 1 released payload first ninth day month , lander making two day descent towards planet craft touched upper atmosphere morning june 11 sixty one kilometers \( 36 6 miles \) venerean surface small container released lander , produced parachute 55 kilometers \( 33 miles \) altitude thus first balloon probe ever explore venus successfully arrived one kilometer opening parachute , helium gas pumped teflon coated plastic balloon , diameter 3 54 meters \( 11 68 feet \) dangling tether thirteen meters \( 42 9 feet \) instrument package , properly known top part 6 9 kilogram \( 15 18 pound \) consisted cone served antenna tether attachment point balloon beneath transmitter , electronics , instruments connected bottom measuring cloud particles painted special white finish keep bay mist sulfuric acid planet 's atmosphere vega 1 balloon dropped night side venus north equator scientists concerned gas bag would burst heat daylight , placed darkened hemisphere give craft much time possible return data action landers come dark well , effectively removing camera systems used previous missions author wonders , though , could used similar ones attached venera 9 10 1975 , soviet scientists thought planet 's surface perpetual twilight due permanently thick cloud cover first balloon transmitted 46 5 hours right day hemisphere lithium batteries failed , covering 11 , 600 kilometers \( 6 , 960 miles \) threat bursting day heat vega 1 balloon stationed 54 kilometer \( 32 4 mile \) altitude dropping ballast fifty kilometers \( thirty miles \) , considered active three main cloud layers reported pioneer venus 1978 indeed balloon pushed across planet speeds 250 kilometers \( 150 miles \) per hour strong vertical winds craft two three hundred meters \( 660 990 feet \) journey layer 's air temperature averaged forty degrees celsius \( 104 degrees fahrenheit \) pressure mere 0 5 earth atmosphere could find clear regions surrounding clouds early first balloon 's flight , vega 1 lander already headed towards venerean surface landers equipped soil drill analyzer similar ones carried venera 13 14 1982 however , vega 1 would become unable report composition ground landing site planitia , plain north terra still ten fifteen minutes away landing , timer malfunction caused drill accidentally begin programmed activity sixteen kilometers \( 9 6 miles \) surface neither way shut instrument landing unfortunate general loss data also fact venus covered smooth low level lava plains never directly examined nevertheless , surface temperature pressure calculated 468 degrees celsius \( 874 4 degrees fahrenheit \) 95 earth atmospheres respectively lander 's 56 minutes ground transmissions large amount background infrared radiation also recorded site done drills cameras venera 11 12 failed december 1978 , soviets focused data returned lander 's plunge atmosphere french soviet mass spectrometer detected sulfur , chlorine , possibly phosphorus sulfur possibly active volcanoes gives venerean clouds color sigma 3 gas found every cubic meter air altitude 48 63 kilometers \( 28 8 37 8 miles \) contained one \( 0 015 grain \) sulfuric acid vega 1 data overall structure cloud decks appeared odds information pioneer venus case made even stronger fact vega 2 's results nearly matched twin vegas found two main cloud layers instead three reported u probes layers three five kilometers \( 1 8 3 miles \) thick altitudes 50 58 kilometers \( 30 34 8 miles \) clouds persisted like thin fog clearing altitude 35 kilometers \( 21 miles \) , much lower pv readings one possibility may radical structural changes venerean air last seven years lander balloon finally went silent , last functioning part vega 1 mission , flyby bus , sailed 708 million kilometer \( 424 8 million mile \) journey around sun become first probe meet comet halley march 6 , 1986 , bus made 8 , 890 kilometer \( 5 , 334 mile \) pass dark icy visitor traveling interplanetary space soviets accomplished first mission two celestial bodies one space vessel june 13 , vega 2 released lander balloon payload two day fall towards venus like duplicate , vega 2 balloon radioed information back twenty antennae tracking earth 46 5 hours battery failure morning side planet 11 , 100 kilometer \( 6 , 660 mile \) flight venus , second balloon entered rather still environment became less twenty hours mission 33 hours mission time air became even eight hours balloon passed five kilometer \( three mile \) mountain continent terra , powerful pulled craft 2 5 kilometers \( 1 5 miles \) towards surface temperature sensors vega 2 balloon reported air layer moving consistently 6 5 degrees celsius \( 43 7 degrees fahrenheit \) cooler area explored vega 1 balloon vega 2 lander passed balloon 's level positive indications lightning made either balloon , second 's failed function vega 2 lander touched northern edge terra 's western arm fifteenth june , 1 , 500 kilometers \( 900 miles \) southeast vega 1 lander 's resting place smoother thought , indicating either ancient worn surface relatively young one covered fresh lava soil drill working order reported rock type known , rare earth present luna 's rock rich aluminum silicon lacking iron magnesium high degree sulfur also present soil air around vega 2 measured 463 degrees celsius \( 865 4 degrees fahrenheit \) 91 earth atmospheres , essentially typical day \( night \) venus far vega 2 lander , carrier bus sped past venus distance 24 , 500 kilometers \( 14 , 700 miles \) followed twin comet halley , making closer flyby march 9 , 1986 8 , 030 kilometers \( 4 , 818 miles \) probes helped reveal comet dark irregular shaped mass fourteen kilometers \( 8 4 miles \) across , rotating every 53 hours , give take three hours since vega craft still functioning halley encounters , soviet scientists considered option send probes celestial objects one prime target near earth planetoid , vega 2 could pass distance six million kilometers \( 3 6 million miles \) sadly , soviets back opportunity become first nation fly spacecraft past planetoid discovered enough maneuvering fuel probe reach planned vega 1 2 quietly shut early 1987 future plans diverted impressive vega mission given scientists numerous ideas hope even ambitious expeditions second world sun one example vesta mission , planned early 1990s soviet french collaboration called launch multiple probes single proton rocket either 1991 1992 craft would first swing venus drop several landers balloon probes would designed survive planet 's corrosive atmosphere one month , large improvement vega two days mission would head investigate several comets , including possible landing vesta \( thus mission name \) , reflective main belt planetoid seen earth unfortunately venus exploration , plans began change soviet union 1986 soviets decided vesta mission red planet mars instead venus , keeping comet planetoid aspects intact time soviet space program interest focusing mars already construction entirely new probe design called phobos two members class planned leave earth 1988 orbit mars next year phobos 1 2 would place first instruments mars' largest moon , phobos prelude even advanced mars expeditions , including balloon probes , , soil sample return craft , eventually human explorers early twenty first century environment venus hostile serious consideration human colonization near future things began look bleak soviet venus mars exploration phobos probes failed complete missions , one losing contact way red planet 1988 going silent mars orbit one week planned moon landing march 1989 1989 plan devised venus orbiter drop eight ten around planet 1998 several years later mission launch date moved year 2005 put hold official soviet missions venus since put forth , sad commentary twenty five years continuous robotic exploration planet late 1980s drastic political economic change taking soviet union president mikhail began open nation benefits increased cooperation rest nations , particularly west culture became less oppressive past , economy taking rough ride also effects free market effects hit everywhere , including space program missions levels cut back soviets began making almost desperate attempts cooperate space faring nations either keep remaining programs alive make money early 1992 reported soviets offering sale several fully equipped veneras storage price 1 6 million dollars , incredibly low price planetary probe nation took bargain meanwhile united states gearing new venus missions magellan galileo u long dormant planetary exploration launch space shuttle atlantis may 4 , 1989 aboard shuttle magellan spacecraft , combination spare parts u probes designed make detailed complete radar mapping venus history magellan reached second world august 1990 , would able map almost entire planet resolution 108 meters \( 360 feet \) , abilities venera 15 16 interim another american probe launched space shuttle would make quick flyby venus way orbit giant planet jupiter 1995 october 18 , 1989 , shuttle atlantis released second unmanned planetary probe space , named galileo famous italian astronomer discovered probe 's primary target 's major moons absence powerful enough booster send galileo direct flight jovian planet , probe sent around venus earth several times build enough speed reach jupiter result , venus became galileo 's first planetary goal february 1990 probe radioed back images planet 's swirling clouds indications lightning violent atmosphere drawing boards incredible success magellan last years , new plans laid venus scien u talked space scientists former soviet union commonwealth independent states since january 1 , 1992 cooperative effort launch new venera lander missions within next decade japan , india , esa also considered venus missions next decades february 1993 nasa came several new venus projects part discovery program launching inexpensive probes throughout solar system venus two missions selected study venus mission involving landing fourteen small probes one hemisphere measure winds , air temperature , pressure venus composition probe , designed study venus' atmosphere descending thick air aid parachute , much soviets done since 1967 final project decisions made 1994 humans venus human ever able stand surface venus \? present lead melting temperatures crushing air pressure would threatening earth life protected something even tougher venera lander plans looked changing environment venus something like earth 's however , noted undertaking require removal much thick carbon dioxide atmosphere , major reduction surface heat , ability speed planet 's rotation rate something bit faster every 243 earth days project may take centuries millennia meantime efforts made better understand venus exists today still yet fully know world seemingly similar earth many important ways became instead deadly place earth ever suffer fate \? perhaps venus holds answers answers may best found international cooperation , including nation made first attempts lift cloudy venus bibliography , v l , senior editor , venus geology , , geophysics research results u r , university arizona press , tucson , 1992 beatty , j kelly , andrew , editors , new solar system , cambridge university press sky publishing corp , cambridge , massachusetts , 1990 , eric , venus errant twin , columbia university press , new york , 1985 burrows , william e , exploring space voyages solar system beyond , random house , inc , new york , 1990 chaisson , eric , steve , astronomy today , prentice hall , inc , englewood cliffs , new jersey , 1993 , kenneth , illustrated encyclopedia space technology , books , new york , 1989 , ronald , planetary landscapes , allen , inc , winchester , massachusetts , 1987 hart , douglas , encyclopedia soviet spacecraft , books , new york , 1987 hartmann , william k , moons planets \( third edition \) , publishing company , belmont , california , 1993 harvey , brian , race space soviet space programme , ellis limited , , england , 1988 , nigel , planets new worlds , viking penguin books ltd , , middlesex , england , 1992 johnson , nicholas l , soviet space programs 1980 1985 , volume 66 science technology series , american astronautical society , , inc , san diego , california , 1987 johnson , nicholas l , soviet year space 1989 1990 , brown engineering , colorado springs , colorado , 1990 1991 lang , kenneth r , charles whitney , wanderers space exploration discovery solar system , cambridge university press , new york , 1991 magellan venus , jpl 400 345 , march 1989 murray , bruce , michael c , ronald , planets surfaces mercury , venus , earth , moon , mars , w h freeman company , san francisco , california , 1981 murray , bruce , journey space first three decades space exploration , w w norton company , new york , 1989 , william , venus revealed , national geographic magazine , volume 183 , number 2 , washington , c , february 1993 , w , far travelers exploring machines , nasa sp 480 , washington , c , 1985 oberg , james edward , new earths restructuring earth planets , meridian book , new american library , inc , new york , 1983 robertson , donald f , venus prime soviet objective \( parts 1 2 \) , spaceflight , volume 34 , numbers 5 6 , british interplanetary society \( bis \) , london , england , may june 1992 smith , arthur , planetary exploration thirty years unmanned space probes , patrick stephens , ltd , , , england , 1988 voyage universe near planets , editors time life books , inc , alexandria , virginia , 1990 wilson , andrew , solar system log , jane 's publishing , inc , new york , 1987 author larry klaes , ejasa editor , recipient asa 's 1990 service award work editor ejasa since founding august 1989 larry also teaches course basic astronomy concord adult community education program massachusetts larry author following ejasa articles one dream man robert h goddard , rocket pioneer august 1989 stopping space light pollution september 1989 rocky soviet road mars october 1989 astronomy family may 1991 soviets venus , part 1 february 1993 soviets venus , part 2 march 1993 electronic journal astronomical society atlantic april 1993 vol 4 , 9 copyright \( c \) 1993 asa
jcobban bnr ca \( jim cobban \) subject command loss timer \( galileo update 04 22 93 \) keywords galileo , jpl nntp posting host organization bell northern research , ottawa , canada lines 13 read past fail safe mechanisms spacecraft , assumed command loss timer sort function however always find disturbing oxymoron op command something command changes behavior status spacecraft op command course terminology comes jet propulsion laboratory nothing jet propulsion jim cobban jcobban bnr ca phone \( 613 \) 763 bnr ltd bnr ca ! ! jcobban fax \( 613 \) 763 2626
seale possum den mmc com \( eric h seale \) subject surviving large accelerations \? organization martin marietta astronautics , denver lines 24 nntp posting host pogo den mmc com amruth laxman andrew cmu edu writes humans \( published 1986 \) already withstood accelerations 45g long winded 's question finally 45g accelerations fact humanly tolerable \? aid mechanical devices course eis calstate edu \( lan pham \) writes sure 45g right number \? far know , pilots blackout dives exceed 8g 9g 45g seems human tolerance would anybody clarify please actually , numbers correct difference direction acceleration pilots , accelerations tend direction 're facing \( pulling steep dive , acceleration force blood toward feet , instance \) case , put 8 g 's even pressure suit record acceleration , though , measured along direction 're facing \( lack better term \) recall , record set rocket back 60 's 40 g 's eric seale seale pogo den mmc com
mccall mksol dseg ti com \( fred j mccall 575 3539 \) subject space station redesign , jsc alternative 4 organization texas instruments inc lines 29 tm0006 lerc nasa gov dbm0000 tm0006 lerc nasa gov \( david b mckissock \) writes option low cost modular approach human tended capability \( opposed old ssf sexist term man tended capability \) option b space station freedom derived man tended capability \( griffin yet adopted non sexist language \) option c single core launch station 'll vote anything n't feel constrained use stupid ugly pc phrases replace words like think need , 're likely engaging public relations rather seriously wanting actually get space eliminates option running call manned station option c \? i'm actually half serious people concerned grammatical correctness actually getting working station terminology insisting perfect safety people n't balls live real world mary shafer , nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com n't speak others n't speak
fairfiel helios usq edu au \( raymond fairfield \) subject surviving large accelerations \? organization university southern queensland lines 27 eis calstate edu \( lan pham \) writes \( answer amruth laxman sure 45g right number \? far know , pilots blackout dives exceed 8g 9g 45g seems human tolerance would anybody clarify please lan apart fact get g pull , dive , figure right sustained g , protection duration g , 's rate onset , body position support aids critical parts equation remember one note players recording peaks , aviation doctor , either accident design , took short period rocket , eye balls standard \( 1950 's \) harness short , calculate stopping time , even 500 g bang seat get 60 g , 'd better sitting straight find book martin human guinea pig hear bad get rate onset high position good g suit keep pilot functioning around tank good bet , since treat body fluid , high pressure situations new anyone figures \? ray fairfield fairfiel zeus usq edu au
atlas cs upei ca \( michael \) subject historic shuttle flights organization university prince edward island lines 7 would someone please send list historic space flights \? looking list flights , ones something happened better yet , ftp site list shuttle flights \? thanks \( helped \) , upei ca
ucr edu \( john \) subject gamma ray bursters organization university california , riverside lines 13 nntp posting host article steinly topaz ucsc edu steinly topaz ucsc edu \( steinn sigurdsson \) writes article att access digex net prb access digex com \( pat \) writes evidence indicates gamma ray bursters far away \? distribution isotropic intensity distribution , crudely speaking , indicates 're seeing edge distribution tell difference intensity distribution due edge spatial distribution intensity distribution due sharp intrinsic certain threshold \? could describe \( roughly \) intensity distribution like \?
subject rocket launch observed ! leo fi \( leo \) distribution world organization bbs , helsinki finland , 358 0 506 \( 20 lines v 32bis \) lines 44 bright light phenomenon observed eastern finland april 21 00 25 ut two people saw bright , luminous pillar shaped phenomenon low eastern near head pillar circular lower part little winding like monster told little frightened soon pillar became enlarged bright spot like sun appeared middle phenomenon last light landed behind nearby forest luminous trails sky visible till morning sunrise phenomenon observed also 00 26 ut saw luminous trail low northeastern altitude trail 3 4 degrees soon trail began grow taller loop appeared head trail like spoon lasted 10 seconds altitude five noted bright spot upper stage loop spot magnitude 2 loop became enlarged spot visible middle loop shaped trail appeared round bright spot minute spot disappeared fuzzy trails visible low luminous trails still visible 01 45 ut morning sky phenomenon caused russian rocket n't know satellite launches near , may rocket experiment since 1969 observed 80 rocket phenomena finland rocket experiments \( military missile tests \? \) , experiments chemical releases years observed 17 satellite launches leo ursa astronomical association phone 358 0 satellite rocket phenomena sect fax 358 0 9 c 54 bbs 358 0 fin helsinki inter leo fi finland
18084tm msu edu \( tom \) subject solid state vs tube analog x added forwarded space digest organization via international space university original sender isu vacation venari cs cmu edu distribution sci lines 21 davis nicoll sez hmmm seem recall attraction solid state record players radios 1960s n't better performance lower per unit cost vacuum tube systems 'd buy two reasons tubes tv 's radios \( still find \) usually 3x expensive comparable transistors also , ask electric guitar enthusiast type amp prefer , 'll tell tube type , since tubes lower distortion noise transistors 'course , electric guitar types say tubes sound better , dude \) also , transistors advantage waste heat energy use , mainly heaters cathodes tubes tommy mac tom mcwilliams 517 355 2178 wk radius vision increases , 18084tm ibm cl msu edu 336 9591 hm circumference mystery grows
subject gamma ray bursters \? belgarath vax1 mankato msus edu qucdn queensu ca 1993apr26 19777 midway uchicago edu organization mankato state university nntp posting host vax1 mankato msus edu lines 53 article 1993apr26 19777 midway uchicago edu , quads uchicago edu \( 's enrico ! \) writes graydon saundrsg qucdn queensu ca things detected space , anyone looked possible problems detectors \? , mechanism \( cosmic rays , whatever \) could cause think seeing one things \? graydon would explain widely separated detectors , ulysses pvo et al , would see burst time \( \) fact , fore batse , widely separated interplanetary network sure way locate random burst one detector , one cannot locate burst \( except say 's somewhere field view \) two detectors , one use time burst seen detector narrow location thin sky three detectors , one gets intersecting , giving two possible locations one locations impossible \( , say , earth blocked part sky \) , voila , error box batse , 8 detectors , location determination , within 3 degrees \( would someone gsfc , like david , like comment current state location determination \? \) sightings detectors helps drive uncertainty touch something n't mean , though believe \( reference somewhere \) absorption like features seen fraction grbs actually caused detector would mean , nasty god , though , would nai crystal act like 10 12 gauss neutron star getting far peter oddjob uchicago edu valid true add , individual detector also built fail safe , detector read background radiation \( e cosmic rays \) , remember right , detectors go 3 5 sigma background n't catch particularly energetic cosmic rays would normally set even buffer , still throw something like 1 2 bursts get , earth 's van allen belts , south atlantic anomaly , sun , remember right , either radar station , radio station australia , couple sources well jeremy belgarath vax1 mankato msus edu
tholen galileo ifa hawaii edu \( dave tholen \) subject new planet kuiper object found \? organization institute astronomy , hawaii distribution sci lines 13 james nicoll writes new kuiper belt object called 'karla' , next one called 'smiley' , , ! previous one called smiley 1992 qb1 smiley , 1993 fw karla note neither name official seems aversion designation scheme way , 1992 qb1 never known smiley officially , moniker already assigned asteroid number
18084tm msu edu \( tom \) subject object smiley x added forwarded space digest organization via international space university original sender isu vacation venari cs cmu edu distribution sci lines 25 james sez new kuiper belt object called 'karla' , next one called 'smiley' jeff responds unless i'm imaging things , \( always possibility \) 1992 qb1 , kuiper belt object discovered last year , known smiley jeff foust 49 days ! 're outer space senior , planetary science , caltech , i'm iowa work jafoust cco caltech edu outer space jeff jpl nasa gov star trek iv voyage home would n't worry much , jeff work jpl , job imaging things \) \( know , typo , could n't resist least , hope typo , stupid joke intended \) tommy mac tom mcwilliams 517 355 2178 wk radius vision increases , 18084tm ibm cl msu edu 336 9591 hm circumference mystery grows
18084tm msu edu \( tom \) subject billboards space x added forwarded space digest organization via international space university original sender isu vacation venari cs cmu edu distribution sci lines 24 phil g fraering pgf srl03 cacs usl edu finally n't bronze age , please try remember human activities practiced warrior caste , farming caste , priesthood f baube responds right , profiting caste blessed god , may freely blare presence evening twilight steinn sez priesthood never quite forgiven merchants \( aka profiting caste sic \) rise power , \? looking evidence god ness , 'd say ability blare lights evening sky best evidence could ever hope get wonder classes upset \) tommy mac tom mcwilliams 517 355 2178 wk radius vision increases , 18084tm ibm cl msu edu 336 9591 hm circumference mystery grows
subject gamma ray bursters energetic could \? belgarath vax1 mankato msus edu organization mankato state university nntp posting host vax1 mankato msus edu lines 38 article senator bedfellow mit edu , jfc athena mit edu \( john f carr \) writes gamma ray bursters , would absorption galaxy expected \? transparent galactic core gamma rays \? much energy burster put \? know energy depends distance , unknown answer form x ergs per 2 ok john carr \( jfc athena mit edu \) turn one problem sets class little problem n't calculator , problem set long ago , 'll use , hope 's wanted highly simplified problem , simple burst bursts usually complex example use burst peak flux 5 6 ergs cm 2 sec 1 duration 8 95 seconds second burst , last 4 seconds , flux half peak flux 's flux peak flux rest time assume background flux 10e 7 erg cm 2 sec 1 find integrated luminosity burst , several different spheres r \( oort cloud radius \) , r 22 5pc \( edge galaxy \) , r 183 5pc edge galactic corona , lastly r integrated flux time find , used old standby formula luminosity 4 \( pi \) \( r 2 \) radius 25 pc , found l around 10 32 erg sec pretty energetic close coronal model , found around 10 43 erg sec lastly , cosmological model l 10 53 's 'd call moderately energetic , 'd say suggestions could put much energy one second \? jeremy
pgf srl03 cacs usl edu \( phil g fraering \) subject vandalizing sky organization univ southwestern louisiana lines 34 sichase csa2 lbl gov \( scott chase \) writes article pgf srl02 cacs usl edu , pgf srl02 cacs usl edu \( phil g fraering \) writes jeff cook ftcollinsco ncr com \( jeff cook \) writes people primitive tribes middle nowhere look see budweiser flying across sky seen movie already one like come think , might send someone quest get rid dang thing actually , idea , like good ideas , comes jules verne , \( like good ideas , please , people ! \) gods must crazy one lesser known books \( ca n't remember one right \) , balloon , travelling africa way around world balloon , five weeks balloon good idea unless helium verne 's n't got lucky yes , knew title movie , n't want start talking except bring image team african showing launch site flint knives stop launch \( anyone want bet success \? especially since could probably stop shuttle launch hard within couple miles launch site \) phil fraering seems like every day find sorts stuff pgf srl02 cacs usl edu like ancient mayans televison repo man
pgf srl03 cacs usl edu \( phil g fraering \) subject gamma ray bursters \? organization univ southwestern louisiana lines 34 belgarath vax1 mankato msus edu writes catalog tests show , bursts isotropic distribution \( evenly spread radial direction \) , show signs , e clump one direction , unless sampling area inside disk galaxy , sampling universe cool , want figure hell caused things , suppose saying , well , may sampling inside disk well , necessarily remember , less interplanetary network burst detectors baseline goes beyond pluto \( pioneer 11 \) , able , detectors de sort difference angle satellite satellite 's analogy see plane overhead measure angle plane origin arbitrary coordinate system one friends mile away sees plane , measures angle zero point arbitrary system , two angles different , able position burst , maybe find source knowledge , one able uh , burst detectors , burst detectors angular resolution network burst detectors could angular resolution , decent set different networks distances neccesary determine 're happening oort cloud one network , trying make two networks degrades angular resolution phil fraering seems like every day find sorts stuff pgf srl02 cacs usl edu like ancient mayans televison repo man
david anderman ofa123 fidonet org subject update back moon bill x sender newtout 0 08 feb 23 1993 lines 51 introducing back moon congress next step next key hurdle lunar resources data purchase act introduction act congress point , many congresspersons approached bill however , successful effort pass bill , need best possible congressperson introduce bill due position chair house committee space science , congressman george brown logical choice long record support interest space development , helped pass launch services purchase act space settlements act small group activists southern california assisted george brown recent election campaigns group tell congressman brown back moon bill also asking pro space constituents let know care getting america back moon finally , good chance nationwide alert space activists call write george brown introduce back moon bill may staged late spring , 1993 produce positive reaction brown 's office known , passed however , even successful getting support bill , alone ensure passage bill bill become law , one three conditions must exist either bill must reflect widespread national support issue \( extension unemployment insurance benefits \) propelled high priced lobbyists \( 're luck \) widespread support within congress , due small , widespread , constituent support latter path , necessity , must choose means introduction lunar resources data purchase act must immediately accompanied large number sponsorship bill accomplish , need activists ask congressperson support lunar resources data purchase act wait bill introduced simply late takes time congressperson 's staff review bill congressperson mentions bill yet introduced , please elicit opinion bill currently written appreciate comments bill activists politicians yet see back moon bill , please request copy email \( please include u postal service address \) , contact local chapter national space society \) maximus 2 01wb
nsmca aurora alaska edu subject surviving large accelerations \? article aurora 1993apr26 1 organization university alaska fairbanks lines 40 nntp posting host acad3 alaska edu article fairfiel helios , fairfiel helios usq edu au \( raymond fairfield \) writes eis calstate edu \( lan pham \) writes \( answer amruth laxman sure 45g right number \? far know , pilots blackout dives exceed 8g 9g 45g seems human tolerance would anybody clarify please lan apart fact get g pull , dive , figure right sustained g , protection duration g , 's rate onset , body position support aids critical parts equation remember one note players recording peaks , aviation doctor , either accident design , took short period rocket , eye balls standard \( 1950 's \) harness short , calculate stopping time , even 500 g bang seat get 60 g , 'd better sitting straight find book martin human guinea pig hear bad get rate onset high position good g suit keep pilot functioning around tank good bet , since treat body fluid , high pressure situations new anyone figures \? ray fairfield fairfiel zeus usq edu au yes tank , combined breathing water \( ref abyss breathing solution think \) also right position astronaut strapping probably get much like near \( somewhat less \) saw book called time master \( title \) ideas fast could go michael adams , nsmca acad3 alaska edu i'm high , jacked
nsmca aurora alaska edu subject long term space voyanges effect newsgroup \? lines 12 nntp posting host acad3 alaska edu organization university alaska fairbanks know alot people think act long distance space project would much like old explorers , , hunters spent alot time alone , isolated , alone minimal surroundings contacts old arctic antarctic expeditions vote later sci space medicine similar newsgroup fro discussion long term missions space affects humans michael adams , nsmca acad3 alaska edu i'm high , jacked
scott psy uwa oz au \( scott fisher \) subject true globe , makes \? organization university western australia lines 22 nntp posting host psy uwa oz au bill xpresso uucp \( bill vance \) writes known quite earth actually pear shaped globular spherical anyone make globe accurate actual shape , landmass configuration long lat lines etc \? thanks advance even , globe scale could fit average room even average hall deviations mention would visually evident words would required test fact globe infact pear shaped regards scott scott fisher scott psy uwa oz au ph aus 61 perth \( 09 \) local \( 380 \) n department psychology w e university western australia perth , nedlands , 6009 perth , w v error 144 reboot \? registered trademark corp
18084tm msu edu \( tom \) subject vandalizing sky x added forwarded space digest organization via international space university original sender isu vacation venari cs cmu edu distribution sci lines 47 wm hathaway comments 'd like add protests come strictly practical consideration pollution levels acceptable research activities professional astronomers would complain rooted aesthetics many readers may never known time heavens pristine sacred actions humans space stars profoundly black abyss full horizons pure sky one could look upon half creation time none connection petty matters man lights supplied solely nature men whole religions based mortal man somehow getting becoming immortal stars , whether belief afterlife space age changed man 's effect environment still desire see place man n't fouled way think point desire beauty valid , even ca n't ever perfectly achieved agree desire beauty valid , think desire impose vision beauty mention age old desire somehow get , ignore beauty actual vision mention beauty dark sky , effects humans , ignore beauty dark sky visible space , vision , least , descendents , may one day able see , part , efforts others call ugly one day , hope , humans able look , upon half heavens , nature lights , upon heavens , lights advertising space help us reach goal , less beautiful way reach , sky \( century \) , totally one original conceptions beauty human form , effort striving reach goal n't think 's reason believe changed , changed way strive btw , places people n't fouled sometimes make better tommy mac tom mcwilliams 517 355 2178 wk radius vision increases , 18084tm ibm cl msu edu 336 9591 hm circumference mystery grows
jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu \( josh hopkins \) subject new planet kuiper object found \? distribution sci organization university illinois urbana lines 20 tholen galileo ifa hawaii edu \( dave tholen \) writes james nicoll writes new kuiper belt object called 'karla' , next one called 'smiley' , , ! previous one called smiley 1992 qb1 smiley , 1993 fw karla way , 1992 qb1 never known smiley officially , moniker already assigned asteroid number could someone explain names come \? i'm sure 's perfectly good reason name planetoid smiley , i'm equally sure n't know reason josh hopkins jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu find way make one attributed hannibal
nicho vnet ibm com \( greg stewart nicholls \) subject vandalizing sky reply nicho vnet ibm com disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , ibm news software ureply 3 1 x x nicho vnet ibm com c63na8 4c1 news cso uiuc edu lines 14 c63na8 4c1 news cso uiuc edu george f krumins writes suggesting minority professional amateur astronomers right dark , uncluttered night sky sorry , wish uncluttered night sky , n't right get , actually rights majority n't agreed give \( process \) 's common misconception born somehow rights sadly true want talk responsibility go power clutter night sky , 's different matter greg nicholls vidi nicho vnet ibm com vici nicho olympus demon co uk veni
in2p3 fr subject france spied u x added forwarded space digest organization via international space university original sender isu vacation venari cs cmu edu distribution sci lines 20 young french skeptic , reads \( \) ufo review presence \( p \) , sent following excerpt august 92 issue review \( r g robert galley , french minister defense 1974 , answering ufo wave \) p conceive u could allow send modern crafts foreign territory , hierarchy ignoring \? r g absolutely ! best proof give , time ago , without informing french authorities , u based germany sent plane make photos \( \) followed plane , , landing airport , colonel x got back shots u informed us \( \) important military plant enrichment uranium \( \) kind plane could \? surely sr 71 , planes could follow \( still ca n't \) j
compuserve com \( larry \) subject ranking space mailing list x added forwarded space digest organization via international space university original sender isu vacation venari cs cmu edu distribution sci lines 13 three weeks ago space list , someone quoting source relative traffic listserv figure traffic \( \? \) given unfortunately clip message would like know source list anybody still discussion disk knows source \( poster ! \) 'd appreciate getting reference road temporarily list cut mail box stuffing g please reply via e mail lek aip org compuserve com wo n't get answer ! larry odyssey magazine
bruce scott launchpad unc edu \( bruce scott \) subject hst servicing mission scheduled 11 days nntp posting host lambada oit unc edu organization university north carolina extended bulletin board service lines 17 boosting hst carrying shuttle would damage , could n't hst brought back earth repair job done \? two shuttle flights would required , adding horrendous expense \? , dr bruce scott deadliest bullshit max planck institut fuer transparent bds aug ipp garching mpg de w gibson opinions expressed necessarily university north carolina chapel hill , campus office information technology , experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu 152 2 22 80
18084tm msu edu \( tom \) subject mcelwaine 's secret messages x added forwarded space digest organization via international space university original sender isu vacation venari cs cmu edu distribution sci lines 32 robert sez \( ! \) larsonian astronomy physics etc ok , got actually , message 's coded messages read caps , comes clear ! types anti matter atoms worth 8 3 billion cost \? ! ! n't much important uses wasted money \? ! another thing consider primary proposed location texas serious growing problem kind fire ants eating insulation underground cables much poisoning ground ground water required keep ants \? ! naming super collider ronald , proposed , totally absurd ! built , named leading particle physicist maybe 's message telling us actually happened legendary larson perhaps 's warning one expend much effort trying counter 's postings sure \? \) tommy mac tom mcwilliams 517 355 2178 wk communicated communists , 18084tm ibm cl msu edu 336 9591 hm pacified pacifists
gnb baby bby com au \( gregory n bond \) subject lindbergh moon \( give 1g \) reply jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu 's message thu , 22 apr 1993 03 56 14 gmt nntp posting host baby organization burdett , buckeridge young , melbourne , australia 1993apr21 aio jsc nasa gov kxf news cso uiuc edu lines 14 article kxf news cso uiuc edu jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu \( josh hopkins \) writes voyages discovery could give examples privately funded ones \? believe 1492 \( film \) , columbus substantial private funds columbus asked merchant put money , guy said \( slightly paraphrased \) , faith , hope charity greater banking gregory bond gnb bby com au burdett buckeridge young ltd melbourne australia knox 's 386 slick fox sox , knox 's box knox 's box quick plays lots lsl 's sick ! \( apologies john iron bar mackin \)
gnb baby bby com au \( gregory n bond \) subject death taxes \( give 1 billion reply tffreeba indyvax iupui edu 's message 22 apr 93 16 25 01 0500 nntp posting host baby organization burdett , buckeridge young , melbourne , australia lines 17 article 1993apr22 162501 747 indyvax iupui edu tffreeba indyvax iupui edu writes \? give winning group \( ca n't see one company corp \) 10 , 20 , 50 year moratorium taxes talking bozos ca n't even manage november keep promises taxes made october , expect make \( keep ! \) 50 year promise like \? faith political system much higher mine would n't even begin expect australia , n't corruption like gregory bond gnb bby com au burdett buckeridge young ltd melbourne australia knox 's 386 slick fox sox , knox 's box knox 's box quick plays lots lsl 's sick ! \( apologies john iron bar mackin \)
nicho vnet ibm com \( greg stewart nicholls \) subject death taxes \( give 1 billion reply nicho vnet ibm com disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , ibm news software ureply 3 1 x x nicho vnet ibm com 1993apr27 439 bby com au lines 11 1993apr27 439 bby com au gregory n bond writes would n't even begin expect australia , n't corruption like wanna bet \? \? \? must young remember bob \) read commision report want know corruption oz greg nicholls vidi nicho vnet ibm com vici nicho olympus demon co uk veni
jpg bnr co uk \( jonathan p gibbons \) subject planets habitable organization bnr europe ltd , london rd , , essex , , u k lines 21 distribution sci nntp posting host 128 199 200 40 would appreciate thoughts makes planet habitable humans making asumptions life similar atmosphere evolve given range physical aspects planet question physical aspects simply disallow earth like conditions eg temperature range \( temp purely dependant dist sun suns temperature \) atmospheric \? know nothing human tolerance planetary mass \? gravity surface important , much human bodies take day day also mass effect atmosphere thinking planets 3 3 times mass earth suppose density important well climate etc concern , axial tilt etc etc three factors relate one another jonathan eyes fiery breath dragon burnt girl death late saint george
lazio astrosun tn cornell edu \( joseph lazio \) subject gamma ray bursters organization department astronomy , cornell university lines 29 senator bedfellow mit edu reply lazio astrosun tn cornell edu nntp posting host seti tn cornell edu summary galaxy transparent keywords galaxy gamma rays reply jfc athena mit edu 's message 26 apr 1993 15 37 32 gmt 26 apr 1993 15 37 32 gmt , jfc athena mit edu \( john f carr \) said jfc gamma ray bursters , would absorption jfc galaxy expected \? transparent galactic core gamma jfc rays \? later jim \( jbatka desire wright edu \) said jb , 1 r 2 law incorrect \( assume jb unknown material dark matter \? \? inhibits gamma ray propagation \) , jb could possible actually seeing much less energetic jb events happening much closer us \? even distribution could jb caused characteristic propagation distance gamma rays jb shorter 1 2 thickness disk galaxy 0 well , maybe zero , little typical energies gamma rays , galaxy effectively transparent hans review article ann rev astrophys years back discusses depth e mail lazio astrosun tn cornell edu joseph lazio phone \( 607 \) 255 6420 icbm 42 deg 20' 08 n 76 deg 48 w cornell knows exist \? ! \? stop rape
keithh tplrd tpl oz au \( keith harwood \) subject gamma ray bursters originator keithh lines 20 nntp posting host organization pacing systems article gap caltech edu , palmer cco caltech edu \( david palmer \) writes prb access digex com \( pat \) writes evidence indicates gamma ray bursters far away \? given enormous power , wondering , quantum black holes something like fairly close \? would galactic ranges \? david gives good explaination deductions isotropic , 'edged' distribution , whit , either part universe part oort cloud could n't earth centred , edge occuring edge gravisphere \? know n't mechanism , n't mechanism others either keith harwood
loss fs7 ece cmu edu \( doug loss \) subject planets habitable organization electrical computer engineering , carnegie mellon distribution sci lines 35 article jpg 93apr27135219 holly bnr co uk jpg bnr co uk \( jonathan p gibbons \) writes would appreciate thoughts makes planet habitable humans making asumptions life similar atmosphere evolve given range physical aspects planet question physical aspects simply disallow earth like conditions eg temperature range \( temp purely dependant dist sun suns temperature \) atmospheric \? know nothing human tolerance planetary mass \? gravity surface important , much human bodies take day day also mass effect atmosphere thinking planets 3 3 times mass earth suppose density important well climate etc concern , axial tilt etc etc three factors relate one another dandridge cole isaac asimov collaborated book titled , habitable planets man \( think \) 1964 available good libraries , inter library loan answered questions ask \( , course \) , along many need considered studies length day \( day night temperature variation , agricultural concerns \) , partial pressures certain unexpected gasses \( ever hear xenon \? neither \) , density particulates atm , composition \( ever hear \? much fun \) , etc climate n't global phenomenon probably need n't concern , axial tilt ought plays large part determining severity differences , lesser still significant part determining speed prevailing winds doug loss loss husky bloomu edu
neff physics uiowa edu \( john neff \) subject planets habitable nntp posting host pluto physics uiowa edu organization university iowa distribution sci lines 33 article iyd fs7 ece cmu edu loss fs7 ece cmu edu \( doug loss \) writes loss fs7 ece cmu edu \( doug loss \) subject planets habitable date tue , 27 apr 1993 13 38 28 gmt article jpg 93apr27135219 holly bnr co uk jpg bnr co uk \( jonathan p gibbons \) writes would appreciate thoughts makes planet habitable humans making asumptions life similar atmosphere evolve given range physical aspects planet question physical aspects simply disallow earth like conditions eg temperature range \( temp purely dependant dist sun suns temperature \) atmospheric \? know nothing human tolerance people adapted high altitudes tibet suspect took several generations make adaptation europeans difficulty making adaptation send women lower altitude pregnant order insure sucessful childbirth planetary mass \? gravity surface important , much human bodies take day day also mass effect atmosphere thinking planets 3 3 times mass earth suppose density important well another factor consider x ray opacity atmosphere case stellar flares , uv opacity also important uv radiation kill damage , plants , animals climate etc concern , axial tilt etc etc three factors relate one another
cohen ssdgwy mdc com \( andy cohen \) subject report redesign team organization mda w lines 172 distribution world nntp posting host q5022531 mdc com following feed us posted already , number items seen yet redesign activities update following weekly status redesign , based information provided nasa headquarters station redesign team \( srt \) provided detailed status report advisory committee redesign space station april 22 day long meeting held facilities crystal city , va topics covered srt included preliminary mission goals statement space station science , technology engineering research assessment process design approach discussions management options operations concepts also held design teams presented three options study option modular buildup pete priest presented option priest said team working define station meets cost goals identified three distinct phases evolution power station , human tended permanent presence team define minimum capability needed achieve phase , total cost phase achievable capability budget levels option uses current simplified freedom hardware cost effective considering existing systems called bus 1 spacecraft , orbiter spacelab power station capability could achieved 3 flights freedom photo modules providing 20 kw power 30 day shuttle spacelab missions docked power station assumed phase human tended capability would provided addition u common module module adds subsystems 9 payload racks docking ports esa japanese laboratories 60 day missions orbiter docked station assumed phase different operation utilization modes studied phase option b freedom derived mike griffin presented status option b activities griffin detailed evolution freedom derived option , initial research capability , human tended capability , permanent human presence capability , two fault tolerance , finally permanent human capability griffin also outlined proposed systems changes baseline program , minor changes communications tracking system , crew health care system , major change data management system initial research capability would achieved 2 flights 28 5 degree inclination \( 3 flights 51 6 degrees \) consist extended duration orbiter spacelab combination docked truss segment 2 photo arrays providing 18 75 kw power human tended capability would achieved 6 flights add truss segments u lab permanent human presence capability would achieved 8 flights two orbiters providing habitation assured crew return two fault tolerance , achieved 11 flights , would build section truss another set pv modules , thermal control propulsion systems freedom derived configuration could achieve international complete state 16 flights three flights , bring habitat module , third pv array two assured crew return vehicles \( acrv \) would complete permanent human capability international stage griffin told redesign advisory committee eliminating hardware would , , meet budget guidelines freedom derived option major reductions must occur areas including program management , contractor non hardware , early utilization operations costs , said option c launch core station chet vaughn presented option c , single launch core station concept shuttle external tank solid rocket boosters would used launch station orbit shuttle main engines would mounted tail station module launch jettisoned et separation module , 23 feet diameter 92 feet long , would provide 26 , 000 cubic feet pressured volume , separated 7 decks connected centralized passageway seven berthing ports would located various places circumference module place international modules , elements would two fixed photo arrays producing approximately 40 kw power flying solar attitude closing comments redesign advisory committee , bryan o'connor said design freeze would established 3 options april 26 detailed costing options begin next meeting redesign advisory committee may 3 russian consultants arrive u delegation 16 russian space experts arrived u april 21 briefings srt members russian team began 22nd group includes russian space agency general director , v , also rsa others team include representatives ministry defense , design bureau salyut , institute biomedical problems , ministry foreign affairs , npo energia russian team briefed srt environmental control life support system , docking systems , proton launch vehicle , mir operations utilization , soyuz tm spacecraft russian consultants available srt assess capabilities mir space station , possible use mir russian capabilities systems part space station redesign available srt may 5 management operations review continues work continued srt management group dr walt brooks working develop family options solve current problems build foundation transition development operations various management options developed including lead center center director chain command host center program manager reporting directly associate administrator works dedicated program office small dedicated co located hand picked program office combine space station shuttle , space station becoming element current program major tune current organization , current contracts geographical distribution maintained streamlined operations group dr john cox building work operations phase assessment team lead gene nasa jsc , already begun comprehensive review operations concluded preliminary results significant cost reductions possible part work , operations group identified teams agency experts develop detailed evaluations design areas assembly operations , utilization , maintenance logistics testing ground operations 's week ahead \? design support teams provide comprehensive status option station redesign team monday tuesday point design frozen begin detailed cost assessment also week , team begin preparing next round discussions redesign advisory committee , held may 3 dr shea steps dr joe shea stepped director station redesign team april 22 bryan o'connor take activities team dr shea submitted resignation assistant deputy administrator space station analysis , continue serve special advisory nasa administrator goldin available consult srt mr goldin accepted resignation request dr shea reduce could key key dates srt currently carried schedule april 26 design freeze options costing april 27 design support team present selected options srt may 3 status report redesign advisory committee may 15 interim report redesign advisory committee june 7 final report redesign advisory committee \( oct 31 cancellation opinion ac \)
jan vesta uni de \( jan \) subject new planet kuiper object found \? organization inst f , universitaet , frg lines 11 distribution sci nntp posting host vesta uni de reply jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu 's message tue , 27 apr 1993 07 38 37 gmt article news cso uiuc edu jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu \( josh hopkins \) writes could someone explain names come \? i'm sure 's perfectly good reason name planetoid smiley , i'm equally sure n't know reason read john le 's , tailor , soldier , spy , honorable smiley 's people jan
tffreeba indyvax iupui edu subject death taxes \( give 1 billion lines 31 article 1993apr27 439 bby com au , gnb baby bby com au \( gregory n bond \) writes article 1993apr22 162501 747 indyvax iupui edu tffreeba indyvax iupui edu writes \? give winning group \( ca n't see one company corp \) 10 , 20 , 50 year moratorium taxes talking bozos ca n't even manage november keep promises taxes made october , expect make \( keep ! \) 50 year promise like \? want give lawyers something 21st cen , n't \? faith political system much higher mine would n't even begin expect australia , n't corruption like oh bet probably better crooks \) gregory bond gnb bby com au burdett buckeridge young ltd melbourne australia knox 's 386 slick fox sox , knox 's box knox 's box quick plays lots lsl 's sick ! \( apologies john iron bar mackin \) tom freebairn came saw went home early 20th cen baseball player anybody know \? \( definitly e mail stuff \)
prb access digex com \( pat \) subject solid state vs tube analog organization express access online communications usa lines 20 distribution sci nntp posting host access digex net article 1 cs cmu edu 18084tm msu edu \( tom \) writes also , ask electric guitar enthusiast type amp prefer , 'll tell tube type , since tubes lower distortion noise transistors 'course , electric guitar types say tubes sound better , dude \) course , turn , gain , add analog delay line box 'd think would n't notice distortion oh forgot phase shifters also , transistors advantage waste heat energy use , mainly heaters cathodes tubes ah , compare mechanical systems \) pat
gfk39017 uxa cso uiuc edu \( george f krumins \) subject vandalizing sky organization university illinois urbana lines 65 nicho vnet ibm com \( greg stewart nicholls \) writes c63na8 4c1 news cso uiuc edu george f krumins writes suggesting minority professional amateur astronomers right dark , uncluttered night sky sorry , wish uncluttered night sky , n't right get , actually rights majority n't agreed give \( process \) 's common misconception born somehow rights sadly true want talk responsibility go power clutter night sky , 's different matter greg nicholls vidi nicho vnet ibm com vici nicho olympus demon co uk veni according reasoning rights , least none think let 's see right air \? , majority drive cars use goods create air pollution manufacturing process right clean water \? guess , reasoning could go examples long time look nazi germany majority , jews , homosexuals , blacks , others different rights fact , imprisoned , slaughtered country blacks right free slavery \? guess , majority said slavery good think right moral imperative law , imposed majority , immoral , one follow fact , one everything power stop course , n't mean would lose common sense break law , thought immoral pay federal income tax even though morally opposed u government taking money spending weapons mass destruction terrorism precisely point trying make people logic , pointing self interest let equal rights aspects life , including adequate housing , food , medical care happen think full life aesthetic beauty joy also necessary consider uncluttered night sky right ever desert , away local lights , people \? sky dark transparent milky way detail thought possible beauty wonder takes breath away imagine live worst ghetto , say l due light pollution never seen dark sky might fact never , whole life , ever see majesty night sky every around , see squalor , life runs thread live \? admit two scenarios extreme examples , seen , one , need dreams hopes , yes , beauty , reason living consider uncluttered night sky right george george krumins serpent rainbow gfk39017 uxa cso uiuc edu pufferfish observatory \( \)
rdouglas stsci edu \( rob douglas \) subject hst servicing mission scheduled 11 days originator rdouglas phaedrus stsci edu organization space telescope science institute lines 52 article 1993apr27 samba oit unc edu , bruce scott launchpad unc edu \( bruce scott \) writes boosting hst carrying shuttle would damage , could n't hst brought back earth repair job done \? reboost may problem , enough fuel n't reboost time , definitely one next servicing mission try land shuttle big huge telescope back could problems shuttle n't designed land much weight payload two shuttle flights would required , adding horrendous expense \? course concern , loss science time ground plus fear comes , big wig might allow go back main concern , believe danger landing add another bad , also increase risk damaging instrument finally , chance nasa prove could build service space station hubble designed flight servicing bringing telescope , understanding , considered even recently , factors contribute decision way planned beginning , dr bruce scott deadliest bullshit max planck institut fuer transparent bds aug ipp garching mpg de w gibson rob rob douglas space 3700 san martin drive ai software engineer telescope baltimore , md 21218 , usa advance planning systems branch science phone \( 410 \) 338 internet rdouglas stsci edu institute fax \( 410 \) 338 disclaimer type opinions mine ! unless course fall standard intellectual property guidelines intellect , doubt besides , useful intellectual property , think would type \? rob douglas space 3700 san martin drive ai software engineer telescope baltimore , md 21218 , usa advance planning systems branch science phone \( 410 \) 338
hathaway stsci edu subject vandalizing sky lines 81 organization space telescope science institute distribution na newsgroups sci astro , sci space subject vandalizing sky apologies post submitted friday , got message post might gone considering confusing spitting contest 'rights' , \( inalienable rights damn ! majority destructive liberty \) , suspect post get site \( ai n't saying dark skies included rights , although preserve rights exercising \) anyway , thoughts 'd like add protests come strictly practical consideration pollution levels acceptable research activities professional astronomers would complain rooted aesthetics many readers may never known time heavens pristine sacred actions humans space stars profoundly black abyss full horizons pure sky one could look upon half creation time none connection petty matters man lights supplied solely nature men whole religions based mortal man somehow getting becoming immortal stars , whether belief afterlife space age changed effect first echo , etc view could happen see light crossing night sky know put us puny people still impressive sense size one gets scales involved also awesome even hundreds thousands miles involved still rest universe still hunger pure beauty virgin sky yes , know aircraft almost always sight live populated area \( 6 miles international airport currently \) light pollution ground ghastly impact humans extreme virtually place exists shaped , , modified , trashed whipped shape hands man places life forms larger bacteria humans , cockroaches , \( rats \) visited friends mountains one weekend , getting away \( paved roads , plumbing , malls , \) felt good quickly noticed hollow directly main flight path 60 80 miles east \( n't help matters much either \) 've heard artic wilderness gets lots high air traffic know skies rarely perfect still desire see place man n't fouled way \( mean 've trying forever like , concerning tesla 's idea banish night , wow ! \) n't watch commercial television , imagine disgusting beer , truck , ointment advertisements would seen high gotta make buck \( displaying products heaven \) , least consider reactions sky last beautiful refuge modern life open though , listing passage hst evening sky weekend tonight friday 8 25 p edt reach altitude 20 1 degrees local meridian baltimore vicinity 'll trying see suppose could called elitist supporting intrusion night sky complaining billboards proposed others may , think point desire beauty valid , even ca n't ever perfectly achieved regards , wm hathaway baltimore md \( p added tuesday rights vs reality tome , warning someone destroying beauty better know people may accept without complaint \)
carl sol1 gps caltech edu \( carl j lydick \) subject command loss timer \( galileo update 04 22 93 \) organization hst wide field planetary camera lines 23 distribution world reply carl sol1 gps caltech edu nntp posting host sol1 gps caltech edu article 1993apr26 1189 bnr ca , jcobban bnr ca \( jim cobban \) writes read past fail safe mechanisms spacecraft , assumed command loss timer sort function however always find disturbing oxymoron op command something command changes behavior status spacecraft op command using argument , operation computer n't , since causes pc course terminology comes jet propulsion laboratory nothing jet propulsion course , complaint comes someone n't clue 's talking carl j lydick internet carl sol1 gps caltech edu nsi hepnet sol1 carl disclaimer hey , understand vaxen vms 's get paid understanding astronomy purely amateur level \( \) unless i'm saying directly related vax vms , n't hold organization responsible related vax vms , try hold responsible , organization nothing
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject hst servicing mission scheduled 11 days organization u toronto zoology lines 12 article 1993apr27 samba oit unc edu bruce scott launchpad unc edu \( bruce scott \) writes boosting hst carrying shuttle would damage , could n't hst brought back earth repair job done \? forces accelerations involved little bit orbital maneuvering hst aboard much smaller involved reentry , landing , launch oms engines n't powerful n't svr4 resembles high speed collision henry spencer u toronto zoology svr3 sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject long term space voyanges effect newsgroup \? organization u toronto zoology lines 11 article 1993apr26 1 aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes vote later sci space medicine similar newsgroup fro discussion long term missions space affects humans bother new newsgroup \? want discuss subject , start discussing enough traffic annoy rest us , let know time new newsgroup svr4 resembles high speed collision henry spencer u toronto zoology svr3 sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
mll aio jsc nasa gov \( mark littlefield \) subject space surveillance \? reply mll aio jsc nasa gov organization lockheed esc nasa jsc lines 32 article cpva saic com , thomsonal cpva saic com writes stuff deleted leads general question yet people us , russia , japan space surveillance , , \? allen thomson saic mclean , va , usa french spot example comes mind although company \( name escapes moment \) sells images world wide , bet last dollar \( \? \? \) french gov't gets first remember years ago \( time spot launched \) , speaking dad \( usaf officer \) , happend mention spot \( think talking technology utilization \) went ballistic wanted know knew spot knew guess space surveillance sensitive topic air force could n't believe would read system popular press \( ie av week \) mark , mark l littlefield intelligent systems department internet mll aio jsc nasa gov lockheed engineering sciences 2400 nasa rd 1 mc c 19 houston , tx 77058
flb flb optiplan fi \( f baube tm \) subject tsniimach enterprise x added forwarded space digest organization via international space university original sender isu vacation venari cs cmu edu distribution sci lines 26 wales larrison ofa123 fidonet org commercial space news space technology investor number 22 7 another pegasus competitor announced tsniimach enterprise described ex military establishment , focusing aerodynamics thermal protection spacecraft participated development shuttle system , located near npo energia facility kaliningrad , outside moscow facility kaliningrad , near moscow , fact ex east prussian , russian enclave baltic coast served ships rail , intrepid europe would find accessible might even want try arrange tour \( \? \? \) fred baube \( tm \) times intellectual ferment , baube optiplan fi advantage intellect include disclaimer h fermented may '68 , paris 's retrospective time ! ! p i'm quite glad couple people stated quite eloquently aesthetic natural objections space billboard
loss fs7 ece cmu edu \( doug loss \) subject vandalizing sky organization electrical computer engineering , carnegie mellon n't want quote stuff 's said recently , wanted add point whole question right dark sky around definition right moral rights natural rights well good , far see , right whatever someone representing enforce civilizations , government church \( \) defines rights citizens , enforces rights u , constitution provides bill rights legal rights considered derive i'm sure countries comparable documents persuade court right dark sky derived manner bill rights \( u \) , prevent \( maybe \) billboards launched keep anyone world launching gets international law international court justice \( correct name \? \) hague , something know little doug loss loss husky bloomu edu
greer span nasa gov subject vandalizing sky x added forwarded space digest organization via international space university original sender isu vacation venari cs cmu edu distribution sci lines 32 space digest v16 487 , hathaway stsci edu writes protests proposals put giant billboard orbit , 'd like add protests come strictly practical consideration pollution levels acceptable research activities professional astronomers would complain rooted aesthetics regards , wm hathaway baltimore md mr hathaway 's post right money , little lengthy short , orbiting billboard would trash , way billboard earth trash billboards make place look laws many places prohibiting use light pollution complaints mainly attempt find tangible reason orbiting billboards people n't feel morally justified complain grounds things would defile beauty sky regular orbiting spacecraft respect , since like abstract entities , billboard space would like beer somebody thrown side road trash dale greer , whose opinions confused center space sciences , university texas dallas greer greer utdallas edu let machines multiply , work many , let people use lao
clarke acme ucf edu \( thomas clarke \) subject vandalizing sky organization university central florida lines 19 come , sci space orbital billboard wo n't permanent damage years probably hit los angles anyway \) boost space commerce orbital advertising might provide might speed day possible dark skies get really dark skies beyond dust producing zodiacal light , wanted paint symbol moon , would give pause would difficult reverse widespread application thomas clarke institute simulation training , university central fl research parkway , suite 300 , orlando , fl \( 407 \) 658 , fax \( 407 \) 658 , clarke acme ucf edu
steinly topaz ucsc edu \( steinn sigurdsson \) subject gamma ray bursters organization lick observatory uco lines 42 1993apr27 132255 12653 tpl68k0 tplrd tpl oz au nntp posting host topaz ucsc edu reply keithh tplrd tpl oz au 's message tue , 27 apr 93 03 17 48 gmt article 1993apr27 132255 12653 tpl68k0 tplrd tpl oz au keithh tplrd tpl oz au \( keith harwood \) writes article gap caltech edu , palmer cco caltech edu \( david palmer \) writes prb access digex com \( pat \) writes evidence indicates gamma ray bursters far away \? given enormous power , wondering , quantum black holes something like fairly close \? would galactic ranges \? david gives good explaination deductions isotropic , 'edged' distribution , whit , either part universe part oort cloud could n't earth centred , edge occuring edge gravisphere \? know n't mechanism , n't mechanism others either earth gravisphere \? anyway , 's decay pioneer venus orbiter gamma ray detector , ulysses , detect brightest bursts earth orbit detectors , bursts least oort cloud distances principle four detectors spaced au would see parallax bursts solar system origin problem oort cloud sources absolutely plausible mechanism proposed would involve new physics far tell closest conventional oort sources model b field pinching comets , 's got many holes count , least good try steinn sigurdsson lick observatory steinly lick ucsc edu standard disclaimer laws gravity , strict 're bending benefit b b 1988
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject temperature dark sky organization u toronto zoology lines 14 anyone reference \( something look , recollections \) temperature \( night \) sky seen space \? note , talking temperature microwave background radiation things sky mbr i'm total blackbody temperature thermal radiator would see , disregarding \( shielding \) sun nearby large warm objects dim recollection net effective temperature substantially higher mbr , figure things like stars zodiacal light , 'd like numbers svr4 resembles high speed collision henry spencer u toronto zoology svr3 sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
games max u washington edu subject words chairman boeing ssto type stuff article max 1993apr27 1 distribution world lines 57 nntp posting host max u washington edu yesterday , went boeing shareholders meeting bit shorter expected last year \( stock first \) , made big presentation 777 , programs year , much bare bones case , wanted ask question board directors would hear , got early , figured n't get mike , maybe would read mine card , wrote , handed meeting started , mr said would answer written questions , order fair people overflow room monitors downstairs naturally , crushed , question answer time came , suprised find question read answered admittedly near end ones took presumably getting early , getting question early made difference , substance question boeing looking anything beyond high speed civil transport , commercial space launch system , , boeing compete reusable single stage orbit technology presently developed mcdonnell douglass \? well , read without hitch , without editing , impressed , answered quickly treating two part question , last part first best recollection said far single stage orbit technology , think better answer two stage approach , talking customers far commercialization , long ways high speed civil transport far commercial planning goes point , tells boeing still considers space non commercial arena , part true , however also tells consider enough money building space launchers work , friend spacelifter program boeing actually , mis , spacelifter contract work guy , however , work preparation proposal space lifter contracts wo n't tell , maybe tsto action taking place boeing minimum , chairman board boeing said approach mind , trying something anybody know anything \? really news \? threaten work dc \? \? john
u chem lsa umich edu \( kurt \) subject temperature dark sky organization department chemistry , university michigan , ann arbor lines 26 distribution world nntp posting host u chem lsa umich edu article zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) writes anyone reference \( something look , recollections \) temperature \( night \) sky seen space \? note , talking temperature microwave background radiation things sky mbr i'm total blackbody temperature thermal radiator would see , disregarding \( shielding \) sun nearby large warm objects dim recollection net effective temperature substantially higher mbr , figure things like stars zodiacal light , 'd like numbers svr4 resembles high speed collision henry spencer u toronto zoology svr3 sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry 's quite asking , years ago helped ee remote sensing people run experiments microwave ice used sky background calibration source said earth 's surface sky looks like 60k blackbody dr kurt dept chemistry always tell phone \( 313 \) 747 university michigan absolute truth x 500 umich edu ann arbor , mi 48109 1055 see chem lsa umich edu
spl1 spl loral com \( c messina \) subject hst servicing mission scheduled 11 days organization loral software productivity laboratory lines 5 another factor bringing hst back earth risk contamination c messina spl1 spl loral com
baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov \( ron baalke \) subject space calendar 04 27 93 organization jet propulsion laboratory lines 152 distribution world nntp posting host kelvin jpl nasa gov news software vax vms vnews 1 41 space calendar updated monthly latest copy available ames arc nasa gov pub space faq please send updates corrections ron baalke \( baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov \) note launch dates subject change following person made contributions month 's calendar dennis newkirk soyuz tm 18 launch date \( dec 1993 \) space calendar april 27 , 1993 indicates change last month 's calendar april 1993 apr 29 astra 1c ariane launch may 1993 may \? \? advanced photovoltaic electronics experiment \( apex \) pegasus launch may \? \? scout launch may \? \? gps delta ii launch may \? \? commercial experiment transporter \( comet \) conestoga launch may 01 astronomy day may 01 2 iapetus saturn eclipse may 04 galileo enters asteroid belt may 04 meteor shower \( maximum 21 00 ut , solar 44 5 deg \) may 13 air force titan 4 launch may 18 sts 57 , endeavour , european retrievable carrier \( 1r \) may 20 15th anniversary , pioneer venus orbiter launch may 21 partial solar eclipse , visible north america northern europe may 25 magellan , aerobraking begins june 1993 jun \? \? meteor 2 launch jun \? \? uhf 2 atlas launch jun \? \? noaa atlas launch jun \? \? first test flight delta clipper \( dc x \) , unmanned jun \? \? 1b 2b ariane launch jun 04 lunar eclipse , visible north america jun 14 sakigake , 2nd earth flyby \( japan \) jun 22 15th anniversary charon discovery \( pluto 's moon \) christy jun 30 sts 51 , discovery , advanced communications technology satellite july 1993 jul \? \? ii scout launch jul \? \? galaxy 4 ariane launch jul 01 soyuz launch \( soviet \) jul 08 soyuz launch \( soviet \) jul 14 soyuz tm 16 landing \( soviet \) jul 20 21 iapetus saturn eclipse jul 21 soyuz tm 17 landing \( soviet \) jul 28 delta meteor shower \( maximum 19 00 ut , solar longitude 125 8 degrees \) jul 29 nasa 's 35th birthday august 1993 aug \? \? ets vi \( engineering test satellite \) h2 launch \( japan \) aug \? \? geos j launch aug \? \? landsat 6 launch aug \? \? pegasus launch aug 08 15th anniversary , pioneer venus 2 launch \( atmospheric probes \) aug 09 mars observer , 4th trajectory correction maneuver \( 4 \) aug 12 n delta meteor shower \( maximum 07 00 ut , solar longitude 139 7 degrees \) aug 12 meteor shower \( maximum 15 00 ut , solar longitude 140 1 degrees \) aug 24 mars observer , mars orbit insertion \( moi \) aug 25 sts 58 , columbia , spacelab life sciences \( sls 2 \) aug 28 galileo , asteroid ida flyby september 1993 sep \? \? spot 3 ariane launch sep \? \? launch sep \? \? pegasus launch october 1993 oct \? \? intelsat 7 f1 ariane launch oct \? \? slv 1 pegasus launch oct \? \? telstar 4 atlas launch oct 01 launch oct 22 meteor shower \( maximum 00 00 ut , solar longitude 208 7 degrees \) november 1993 nov \? \? mop 3 ariane launch nov 03 20th anniversary , mariner 10 launch \( mercury venus flyby mission \) nov 03 meteor shower nov 04 galileo exits asteroid belt nov 06 mercury across sun , visible asia , australia , south pacific nov 08 mars observer , mapping orbit established nov 10 sts 60 , discovery , spacehab 2 nov 13 partial solar eclipse , visible southern hemisphere nov 15 wilhelm herschel 's birthday nov 17 meteor shower \( maximum 13 00 ut , solar longitude 235 3 degrees \) nov 22 mars observer , mapping begins nov 28 29 total lunar eclipse , visible north america south america december 1993 dec \? \? goes atlas launch dec \? \? nato 4b delta launch dec \? \? pegasus launch dec \? \? 1 1 ariane launch dec \? \? wind delta 2 launch dec \? \? step 2 pegasus launch dec \? \? soyuz tm 18 launch \( soviet \) dec 02 sts 61 , endeavour , hubble space telescope repair dec 04 r launch \( soviet \) dec 05 20th anniversary , pioneer 10 jupiter flyby dec 08 mars observer , mars equinox dec 14 meteor shower \( maximum 00 00 ut , solar longitude 262 1 degrees \) dec 20 mars observer , solar conjunction begins dec 23 meteor shower \( maximum 01 00 ut , solar longitude 271 3 degrees \) january 1994 jan 03 mars observer , end solar conjunction jan 24 clementine titan iig launch \( lunar orbiter , asteroid flyby mission \) february 1994 feb \? \? sfu launch feb \? \? gms 5 launch feb 05 20th anniversary , mariner 10 venus flyby feb 08 sts 62 , columbia , u microgravity payload \( 2 \) feb 15 galileo 's birthday feb 21 clementine , lunar orbit insertion feb 25 25th anniversary , mariner 6 launch \( mars flyby mission \) march 1994 mar \? \? tc 2c launch mar 05 15th anniversary , voyager 1 jupiter flyby mar 14 albert einstein 's birthday mar 27 25th anniversary , mariner 7 launch \( mars flyby mission \) mar 29 20th anniversary , mariner 10 , 1st mercury flyby mar 31 galaxy 1r delta 2 launch april 1994 apr \? \? equator scout launch apr 04 mars observer , perihelion apr 14 sts 59 , atlantis , srl 1 ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab \) 525 3684 telos aweto new zealand pasadena , ca 91109 part caterpillar part vegetable
david anderman ofa123 fidonet org subject space race ideas moon base cheap x sender newtout 0 08 feb 23 1993 lines 19 although 1 billion scheme fantasy \( 's old space business called \) , good chance much smaller program \( 65 million \) pass 103rd congress back moon bill , put together people passed launch services purchase act bill would private companies develop lunar orbiters , vendors selected basis competitive bidding aggregate cap bids 65 million single rich individual paying billions lunar missions probably worse government 65 million program , delta clipper program shown \( dc x funded sdio 59 million \) clear chance making lunar mission happen decade opposed simply wishing dreams come true please support back moon bill information , please send e mail u postal service address maximus 2 01wb
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject vandalizing sky organization u toronto zoology lines 12 article 1993apr27 cs ucf edu clarke acme ucf edu \( thomas clarke \) writes , wanted paint symbol moon , would give pause would n't bother 'd laugh would n't work surface moon already pretty dark , contrast would poor could n't possibly see reason moon looks bright 's bright sunlight otherwise dark sky evidently heinlein n't know svr4 resembles high speed collision henry spencer u toronto zoology svr3 sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
hathaway stsci edu subject vandalizing sky lines 32 organization space telescope science institute distribution na article fs7 ece cmu edu , loss fs7 ece cmu edu \( doug loss \) writes n't want quote stuff 's said recently , wanted add point enforces rights u , constitution provides bill rights legal rights considered derive i'm sure countries seem hardly like groups discuss , huh \? \? \? legitimate power enforce rights derives consent governed , piece paper civilized autonomous computer program , 's interactive constitution made people trashed us ai n't sacred scripture rights flow 'rights' come souls sure n't see request vote trashing sky opinion keep rights using , going court comparable documents persuade court right dark sky derived manner bill rights \( u \) , prevent \( maybe \) billboards launched keep anyone world launching gets international law international court justice \( correct name \? \) hague , something know little doug loss loss husky bloomu edu gracious regards ,
sysmgr king eng umd edu \( doug mohney \) subject want billion organization computer aided design lab , u maryland college park lines 54 reply sysmgr king eng umd edu nntp posting host queen eng umd edu article zoo toronto edu , henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) writes n't spend billion dollars , since prize going scaled match level effort spend billion pretty quickly buying titan launches fine 'll buy george ! ! ! ! assumes ca n't weasel cooperative venture sort \( cut break launcher , 'll cut proceeds works \) government pays higher list price 's , buy titans , prize money entire return investment develop new launch system , uses , prize icing cake unless 're martin marietta , since \( recall \) bought gd line aerospace products mm gd house project , costs would look much better buying list price anyone really know profit margins built titan \? c'mon allen telling us cheap get improved doubt much billion dollar prize going show enough return justify investment constrained use current us launchers oh please much profit want \? pulling 100 150 million said done would n't mention goodies 'll collect \) movie tv rights \( say 100 150 million conservatively \) b \) advertising \( look , 're drinking coke ! \) c \) intangibles \( name , experience data \) 're going invest front money building new launch system rather pissing away existing ones first importance go bankrupt want lean , fine 500 million prize would adequate prize maybe wales would kind enough define company would consider decent profit want r done , 'll write r clauses suppose could make set aside \) software engineering \? 's like military intelligence , n't \? sysmgr cadlab eng umd edu
tkelso afit af mil \( ts kelso \) subject two line orbital element set space shuttle keywords space shuttle , orbital elements , keplerian nntp posting host scgraph afit af mil organization air force institute technology lines 18 current orbital elements norad two line element sets carried celestial bbs , \( 513 \) 427 0674 , updated daily \( possible \) documentation tracking software also available system service satellite user community , current elements current shuttle mission provided celestial bbs may accessed 24 hours day 300 , 1200 , 2400 , 4800 , 9600 bps using 8 data bits , 1 stop bit , parity element sets \( also updated daily \) , shuttle elements , documentation software also available via anonymous ftp archive afit af mil \( 129 92 1 66 \) directory pub space sts 55 1 93 27 93117 00000 0 3 0 47 2 28 264 261 194 3250 15 104 dr ts kelso assistant professor space operations tkelso afit af mil air force institute technology
pgf srl03 cacs usl edu \( phil g fraering \) subject lindbergh moon \( give 1g \) organization univ southwestern louisiana lines 26 gnb baby bby com au \( gregory n bond \) writes article kxf news cso uiuc edu jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu \( josh hopkins \) writes voyages discovery could give examples privately funded ones \? believe 1492 \( film \) , columbus substantial private funds columbus asked merchant put money , guy said \( slightly paraphrased \) , faith , hope charity greater banking heck , ships one owned \( know , one groups probably crossed atlantic columbus came along \) gregory bond gnb bby com au burdett buckeridge young ltd melbourne australia knox 's 386 slick fox sox , knox 's box knox 's box quick plays lots lsl 's sick ! \( apologies john iron bar mackin \) phil fraering seems like every day find sorts stuff pgf srl02 cacs usl edu like ancient mayans televison repo man
eugene wilbur nas nasa gov \( eugene n miya \) subject level 5 \? organization nas , nasa ames research center , moffett field , california lines 19 article 1993apr23 1 fnalf fnal gov higgins fnalf fnal gov \( bill higgins beam jockey \) writes someone tell ignorant physicist term level 5 comes \? invents standard , come everyone seems familiar \? sei software engineering institute , dod funded part carnegie mellon university read part ed 's decline fall american programmer \( press \) passing thru eugene miya , nasa ames research center , eugene orville nas nasa gov resident cynic , rock ages home retired hackers uunet , , gateways ! ames ! eugene second favorite email message returned mail cannot send message 3 days ref mathematics plausible reasoning , vol 1 , g
watson princeton edu \( robert \) subject comet launch date originator news nimaster nntp posting host princeton edu organization princeton university lines 7 hello , familiar comet program concerns comet scheduled launched wallops island sometime june anyone know official launch date set \? thanks , rob
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject want billion organization u toronto zoology lines 27 article mojo eng umd edu sysmgr king eng umd edu writes 's , buy titans , prize money entire return investment develop new launch system , uses , prize icing cake unless 're martin marietta , since \( recall \) bought gd line aerospace products think 've got one error memory \) mm bought satellite building side ge e , mm gd still competitors mm gd house project , costs would look much better buying list price better , yes , 're talking order magnitude \( especially want use titan iv , belongs usaf , mm \) c'mon allen telling us cheap get improved sure , get launcher fairly cheap privately rather gummint project 're still talking something cost nine digits per launch , unless guarantee large market justify volume production svr4 resembles high speed collision henry spencer u toronto zoology svr3 sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
thomsonal cpva saic com subject space surveillance really meant organization science applications int'l corp san diego lines 33 thanks people answered email question countries engage space surveillance unfortunately , apparently n't make meaning message clear , since replies addressed satellite reconnaissance , rather space surveillance meant countries use satellites look earth \( satellite reconnaissance \) , countries programs detect track \( e , determine orbital elements \) satellites pass overhead \( space surveillance \) us uses missile defense radars , supplemented fascinating quasi radar operated navy , satellites leo , systems objects altitudes 5 , 000 km fee , understand , much thing amateur satellite observers use , binoculars , pcs objects around 1500 km , enabling keep track satellites , ah , official element sets n't available see fascinating books desmond king details , well files directory kilroy jpl nasa gov material posted previous message suggests japan engages optical radar space surveillance modest degree , may countries also question meant ask , , \? allen thomson saic mclean , va oh , yes n't speak saic
madison wam umd edu \( rob jr \) subject long term human missions nntp posting host rac3 wam umd edu organization university maryland , college park lines 15 excerpt rek siss81 \( robert kaye \) contributions space program regular society 1 calculators 2 teflon \( eggs n't stick pan \) 3 pacemakers \( kept grandfather alive 1976 1988 \) n't forget tang ! smile robert , jr university maryland , college park , maryland e mail madison wam umd edu work chocolate
apryan vax1 tcd ie subject u k see mir evening skies ! lines 24 nntp posting host vax1 tcd ie organization trinity college dublin lines 24 astronomy space magazine 's uk telephone carries times see russian space station mir visible every evening \( time 9 o'clock midnight \) april 27 may 7 's bright jupiter best two board time watch , tel 0891 88 19 50 \( 48p min peak min times , prediction start weekly message costs \) e mail reports sightings would appreciated give lat long ut \( seconds accuracy possible \) passes bright star \( say brighter mag 3 \) , planet moon moon evening sky also , note somewhere u k mir pass front moon night ! please alert local clubs telephone , general public mir cause quite stir ! tony ryan , astronomy space , new international magazine , available astronomy ireland , p box 2888 , dublin 1 , ireland 6 issues \( one year sub \) uk 10 00 pounds , us 20 surface \( add us 8 airmail \) access visa mastercard accepted \( give number , expiration date , name address \) \( world's largest astro soc per capita unless know better \? 0 033 \) tel 0891 88 1950 \( uk n ireland \) 1550 111 442 \( eire \) cost 48p per min
dennisn ecs comm mot com \( dennis newkirk \) subject tsniimach enterprise organization motorola distribution sci nntp posting host 145 1 146 43 lines 27 article 1 cs cmu edu flb flb optiplan fi \( f baube tm \) writes wales larrison ofa123 fidonet org tsniimach enterprise described ex military establishment , focusing aerodynamics thermal protection spacecraft participated development shuttle system , located near npo energia facility kaliningrad , outside moscow facility kaliningrad , near moscow , correction , info kaliningrad mr larrison writes indeed near moscow 've read may also known name , short distance \( star city \) training center read tsniimach \( central scientific research institute machine building , est 1961 \) enterprise also responsible creating \( ground command measurement complex \) including kaliningrad flight control center controlled soviet russian manned since completion 1973 however , appears part ministry general machine building part military \( ministry defense \) would part military industrial complex dennis newkirk \( dennisn ecs comm mot com \) motorola , land mobile products sector schaumburg , il
apryan vax1 tcd ie subject u k see mir evening skies tell friends ! lines 27 nntp posting host vax1 tcd ie organization trinity college dublin lines 27 astronomy space magazine 's uk telephone carries times see russian space station mir visible every evening \( time 9 o'clock midnight \) april 27 may 7 's bright jupiter best two board time watch , tel 0891 88 19 50 \( 48p min peak min times , prediction start weekly message costs \) e mail reports sightings would appreciated give lat long ut \( seconds accuracy possible \) passes bright star \( say brighter mag 3 \) , planet moon moon evening sky also , note somewhere u k mir pass front moon night ! please alert local clubs telephone , general public mir cause quite stir ! tony ryan , astronomy space , new international magazine , available astronomy ireland , p box 2888 , dublin 1 , ireland 6 issues \( one year sub \) uk 10 00 pounds , us 20 surface \( add us 8 airmail \) access visa mastercard accepted \( give number , expiration date , name address \) \( world's largest astro soc per capita unless know better \? 0 033 \) tel 0891 88 1950 \( uk n ireland \) 1550 111 442 \( eire \) cost 48p per min p mir seen right time april 28th , passed jupiter brighter dimmer jupiter \( one highest passes ! \)
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject temperature dark sky organization u toronto zoology lines 21 article 1993apr28 news arc nasa gov moses pan arc nasa gov \( julie moses \) writes radiation field measured modeled various groups remember things correctly , models involved contributions three different bb sources , 's obvious temperature background radiation local area indeed , sky n't look much like black body look carefully enough particular , temperature radio frequencies quite bit higher would see black body morgan gordon 's fat communications satellite handbook graph sky temperature vs wavelength , fact , communications design however , terms energy content , rf frequencies negligible thermal purposes , large distances sun sky looks like black body 3 5k \( allen , astrophysical quantities \) n't found number non large distances , since solar radiation tends something ca n't ignore \) , g says 4k brief discussion solar radiation dominates problem svr4 resembles high speed collision henry spencer u toronto zoology svr3 sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
mcelwre cnsvax uwec edu subject universe motion \( book review \) organization university wisconsin eau claire lines 141 \( book review \) universe motion , dewey b larson , 1984 , north pacific publishers , portland , oregon , 456 pages , indexed , hardcover universe motion contains final solutions astrophysical mysteries book volume iii revised enlarged edition structure physical universe , 1959 volume nothing motion \( 1979 \) , volume ii basic properties matter \( 1988 \) books journal articles subject astrophysics , partial , fancy mathematics book , contrast , mathematics conspicuous absence , except relatively simple formulas text larson emphasizes concepts declares mathematical agreement theory guarantee conceptual validity dewey b larson retired engineer bachelor science degree engineering science oregon state university developed theory described books trying find way mathematically calculate properties chemical compounds based elements contain universe motion describes astrophysical portions larson 's consistent , integrated , comprehensive , general unified theory physical universe , kind grand unified field theory orthodox physicists astro physicists claim looking built two postulates physical mathematical nature space time \( 1 \) physical universe composed entirely one component , motion , existing three dimensions , discrete units , two reciprocal aspects , space time \( 2 \) physical universe conforms relations ordinary mathematics , primary absolute , geometry euclidean two postulates , larson able build complete theoretical universe , photons particles giant elliptical galaxies , combining concept inward outward scalar motions , vibrational , rotational , rotational vibrational motions step development , able match parts theoretical universe corresponding parts real physical universe , including even things yet discovered example , 1959 book , first predicted existence exploding galaxies , several years astronomers started finding necessary consequence comprehensive theory quasars discovered , related explanation ready also result theory , called reciprocal system , larson totally rejected many sacred doctrines orthodox physicists astrophysicists , including black holes , neutron stars , degenerate matter , quantum wave mechanics \( applied atomic structure \) , nuclear physics , general relativity , relativistic mass increases , relativistic doppler shifts , nuclear fusion stars , big bang , considered nothing mathematical fantasies critical ad hoc assumptions , uncertainty principles , solutions principle , way declarations , etc , used maintain universe motion divided 31 chapters begins description galaxies built gravitational attraction globular star clusters , formed intergalactic gas dust clouds accumulate decay products cosmic rays coming anti matter half physical universe \( galaxy formation mythical big bang big mystery orthodox astronomers \) goes describe life cycles stars binary multiple star systems solar systems result type supernova explosions single stars several chapters devoted quasars , according larson , densely packed clusters stars ejected central exploding galaxies actually traveling faster speed light \( although speed away us time \) astronomers astrophysicists run observations contradict theories would find larson 's explanations quite valuable considered open mind example , used believe gamma ray bursts originated pulsars , exist primarily plane central bulge galaxy new gamma ray telescope earth orbit observed bursts come directions uniformly correspond visible objects , \( except cases directional coincidence \) larson 's explanation gamma ray bursts originate supernova explosions anti matter half physical universe , larson calls cosmic sector anti matter universe exists reciprocal relation material universe , speed light boundary , three dimensions time one dimension space , bursts pop material universe anywhere seemingly random larson heavily quotes statements books , journal articles , leading physicists astronomers book , 351 numbers identifying entries reference list end book example , quote book astronomy cosmic journey , william k hartmann , says , hopes understanding stars would brighten could explain exactly binary multiple stars form unfortunately cannot larson 's book contains logical consistent explanations mysteries worthy serious consideration physicists , astronomers , astrophysicists information , answers questions , etc , please consult cited sources \( larson 's books \) un altered reproduction dissemination important book review encouraged robert e mcelwaine b , physics astronomy , uw ec
khayash hsc usc edu \( ken hayashida \) subject long term human missions organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 38 nntp posting host hsc usc edu mike adams suggested discussions long term effects spaceflight human love topic , regulars know , seen henry 's encouraging statement starting talk shall feel community people unique resources deliver world comprehensive book elaborate utility spaceflight fields divergent medical intensive care , agriculture , environmental protection , probably believe general public understands impact spaceflight whole society absence knowledge , see support world 's space effort believe group responsibility communicate amongst , also others print media well orchestrated technically oriented analysis life science variables required support long duration spaceflight \( like long moon mars \) would entertaining educational general public objective effort would compile resources publications accepted scientific technical journals would address major life science area addition , ideas research development could put forward general public ponder allowing general public take part excitement exploration individuals interested willing devote hour per week running literature searches finding journal articles addition , need obtain assistance personnel within halls nasa industry appreciated positive responses date personally eager start project perhaps could start debate regarding best grade viability various technologies application spaceflight ken
abdkw stdvax gsfc nasa gov \( david ward \) subject gamma ray bursters \? news software vax vms vnews 1 4 b1 organization goddard space flight center robotics lab lines 27 article 1993apr26 19777 midway uchicago edu , midway uchicago edu writes batse , 8 detectors , location determination , within 3 degrees \( would someone gsfc , like david , like comment current state location determination \? \) sightings detectors helps drive uncertainty well , 'll avoid question \( got \) promise come back info find know batse primary instrument development sky map long term sources given fact , spacecraft attitude knowledge approx 2 , might able figure well batse determine location \( rotational \) gamma ray burster knowledge sky map 's accuracy pr material three instruments give accuracies order fractions degree , 's help speaking gro , net world probably happy see orbit adjust appear going well branch guy 's helping says things gone smoothly iso valve burns take place mid june anyway , i'm find back get info david w gsfc n't know 'bout gamma rays gone wind , paraphrased
metares well sf ca us \( tom van flandern \) subject temperature dark sky nntp posting host well sf ca us organization whole earth 'lectronic link lines 29 henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) writes anyone reference \( something look , recollections \) temperature \( night \) sky seen space \? 'll find allen , c w , astrophysical quantities , press , dover , nh , 3rd edition , pp 268 269 \( 1973 \) accuracy calculated \( see specific references allen calculated \) , temperature 3 degrees k lots people remarked temperature first may 's book , internal constitution stars , ch 13 \( 1926 reprinted 1986 \) , gives temperature space 3 degrees source temperature radiation starlight dim recollection net effective temperature substantially higher mbr , figure things like stars zodiacal light , 'd like numbers accuracy measurement , 's temperature us think may coincidence tom tom van flandern washington , dc metares well sf ca us meta research founded foster research ideas otherwise supported conflict mainstream theories astronomy
prb access digex com \( pat \) subject gamma ray bursters energetic could \? organization express access online communications usa lines 11 nntp posting host access digex net article 1993apr26 200406 1 vax1 mankato msus edu belgarath vax1 mankato msus edu writes energetic close coronal model , found around 10 43 erg sec lastly , cosmological model l 10 53 's 'd call moderately energetic , 'd say suggestions could put much energy one second \? jeremy big capacitor \) real big capacitor pat
prb access digex com \( pat \) subject gamma ray bursters organization express access online communications usa lines 36 nntp posting host access digex net well , seem struck interesting discussion given nuclear physicist , 'll boil bit 1 \) data bursts date , shows smooth random distribution 2 \) means n't concentrated galactic cores , someone elses 3 \) distribution smooth , either seeing enormously large phenomena scattered edge universe said phenomena subject debate almost phenomena seeing phenomena like oort cloud , needs potent little energy source , n't detectable current methods 4 \) know 's real close , like slightly extra solar , parallax measurements bursts 5 \) bursts seem bright something like black hole super string impacts something like everyone watching data arguing like mad meanwhile wondering , people 's opinion , new physics problem einstein got well known effect copernicus , started looking irregularities planetary motion big enough problem , create new area physics \? little speculative thinking folks pat
u9263012 wampyr cc uow edu au \( walker andrew john \) subject gamma ray bursters organization university wollongong , nsw , australia lines 47 nntp posting host wampyr cc uow edu au steinly topaz ucsc edu \( steinn sigurdsson \) writes article 1993apr27 132255 12653 tpl68k0 tplrd tpl oz au keithh tplrd tpl oz au \( keith harwood \) writes article gap caltech edu , palmer cco caltech edu \( david palmer \) writes prb access digex com \( pat \) writes evidence indicates gamma ray bursters far away \? given enormous power , wondering , quantum black holes something like fairly close \? would galactic ranges \? david gives good explaination deductions isotropic , 'edged' distribution , whit , either part universe part oort cloud could n't earth centred , edge occuring edge gravisphere \? know n't mechanism , n't mechanism others either earth gravisphere \? anyway , 's decay pioneer venus orbiter gamma ray detector , ulysses , detect brightest bursts earth orbit detectors , bursts least oort cloud distances principle four detectors spaced au would see parallax bursts solar system origin problem oort cloud sources absolutely plausible mechanism proposed would involve new physics far tell closest conventional oort sources model b field pinching comets , 's got many holes count , least good try steinn sigurdsson lick observatory steinly lick ucsc edu standard disclaimer laws gravity , strict 're bending benefit b b 1988 also , come oort cloud would expect see stars oort clouds andrew walker
prb access digex com \( pat \) subject vandalizing sky organization express access online communications usa lines 18 nntp posting host access digex net article c63na8 4c1 news cso uiuc edu gfk39017 uxa cso uiuc edu \( george f krumins \) writes say i'm objecting floating billboard , presumably , would move around sky , one , legislating wish people bit common courtesy , would consider greed money impacts ethereal aesthetic values make us human includes need wild unspoiled things , including night sky sorry 's aesthetics argument maybe string shoudl sci space aesthetics planes ruin night sky ruin night sky radio towers ruin night sky like said , get vote , create national parks include air space
ethanb ptolemy astro washington edu \( ethan bradford \) subject gamma ray bursters article ptolemy ethanb 1993apr27 132255 12653 tpl68k0 tplrd tpl oz au steinly 93apr27121443 topaz ucsc edu ethanb ptolemy astro washington edu steinly topaz ucsc edu organization u washington lines 46 nntp posting host ptolemy astro washington edu steinly topaz ucsc edu \( steinn sigurdsson \) reply steinly topaz ucsc edu 's message 28 apr 93 15 07 43 article steinly topaz ucsc edu steinly topaz ucsc edu \( steinn sigurdsson \) writes propose mechanism grbs oort \( , , anti matter annihilation fit spectra least far understand annihilation spectra \) big difference 's ignoring question fit distribution oort distribution oort distribution well known particular comet \( well known \) good measure oort cloud distribution merging neutron stars least mechanism right energy , except n't explain apparent correlation galaxies galaxy structure , mechanism getting energy gamma rays \( significant amount around lot pair production , makes plasma , energy \) , trouble generating enough energy explain powerful bursts \( 10 52 53 ergs \) , happens fast compared burst duration , hard make tight binaries neutron stars another cosmological catalytic conversion neutron star strange star merger two strange stars , uses pretty far physics point n't good mechanism distance , grb 's likely happening unknown mechanism , ca n't rule oort cloud would spectrum event converts comet strange matter \? spectra black holes eating comets antimatter comets colliding matter comets n't quite right , perhaps unusual mechanism modifies spectrum energy matches well mechanisms according trevor weeks , meteorite mini black hole collision earth , likely enough mini black holes around rate bh comet collisions matches grb rate well fact n't know distribution comets oort cloud n't reason rule makes harder rule point cited paper assume got right distribution oort cloud , hard impossible match distribution grb 's got wrong distribution oort cloud , ca n't constrain oort cloud grb 's executive summary n't know enough rule oort cloud
subject gamma ray bursters positional stuff belgarath vax1 mankato msus edu 1993apr26 19777 midway uchicago edu 27apr199320210230 stdvax gsfc nasa gov gap caltech edu organization mankato state university nntp posting host vax1 mankato msus edu lines 52 article gap caltech edu , kwp wag caltech edu \( kevin w plaxco \) writes article 27apr199320210230 stdvax gsfc nasa gov abdkw stdvax gsfc nasa gov \( david ward \) writes given fact , spacecraft attitude knowledge approx 2 , might able figure well batse determine location \( rotational \) gamma ray burster knowledge sky map 's accuracy pr material three instruments give accuracies order fractions degree , 's help believe fundamental difference x three instruments focusing instruments , , less , form image , positional errors limited craft attitude resolving power optics batse altogether different beast , effectively 8 coincidence counters , one corner craft positional information triangulated differential signal arrival times detectors positional error would predominantly determined timing errors errors craft attitude since none 8 baste detectors independant angular resolution whatsoever , used determine parallax indeed , parallax would add small component positional error demonstrating puppies beyond oort cloud would require resolution order , since oort cloud postulated extend 0 5 parsec \( together parallax arc second , parsec distance object demonstrates one arc second parallax 2 au base line \) 3 degree accuracy reported true , 're going add baste pluto fast flyby get enough baseline beauty baste gives positional information watches entire sky simultaneously , realy handy combination idea next burst coming kevin batse alone n't always used determine position particularly bright burst occurs , couple detectors catch going pioneer 10 11 one i'm getting puppy far enough away , bright burst happens nearby , huge created hopefully intersect line general circle given batse , get moderately accurate position say oh , 2 3 degrees closest anyone ever gotten actually , advisor , another classmate mine , talking day putting one detector one pluto satellites realized satellite alone carrying something like 200 pounds eq well , batse detector needs lead shielding protect , 1 alone weighs 200 pounds decided jeremy
strider clotho acm rpi edu \( greg moore \) subject hst servicing mission scheduled 11 days keywords hst nntp posting host acm rpi edu organization voice fate lines 21 article access digex net prb access digex com \( pat \) writes guess bother usingthe shuttle reboost \? grapple , said fixes , bolt small liquid fueled thruster module hst , let make boost cheaper mass usingthe shuttle tug way , going need least 5 spacewalks , carry edo pallet , sit station even maybe solar array tilt motor fix pointed , develop thruster also , much lighter , still lift mass thruster orbit , thruster lifts weight higher orbit take room payload bay pat
ethanb ptolemy astro washington edu \( ethan bradford \) subject gamma ray bursters article ptolemy ethanb 1993apr27 132255 12653 tpl68k0 tplrd tpl oz au steinly 93apr27121443 topaz ucsc edu wampyr cc uow edu au organization u washington lines 8 nntp posting host ptolemy astro washington edu u9263012 wampyr cc uow edu au \( walker andrew john \) reply u9263012 wampyr cc uow edu au 's message 29 apr 1993 13 31 32 1000 u9263012 wampyr cc uow edu au \( walker andrew john \) writes also , come oort cloud would expect see stars oort clouds 's good point perhaps none nearby stars oort clouds \? alpha centauri multiple star system would n't expect oort cloud 's nearest single star likely planetary system \?
msk su \( vladimir \) subject new inexpensive method determining ore oil locations reply msk su organization ltd keywords space satellites statistical prognosis summary interesting idea russia ! lines 18 dear gentlemen ! firm called , ltd offers quite inexpensive method determine ore oil locations world method used data got space satellites office using data get good prognosis locations mentioned prognosis could done part world ! 're interested details please send e mail msk su vladimir , moscow , russia
max west darkside com \( erik max francis \) subject temperature dark sky organization dark side moon 1 408 245 spam lines 18 henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) writes anyone reference \( something look , recollections \) temperature \( night \) sky seen space \? temperature intergalactic space \( space \) would , close microwave background temperature , 2 73 recall interstellar space neighborhood galaxy 's something like 4 k looking \? erik max francis , ! apple ! ! max max west darkside com usmail 1070 dr 1 san jose , ca icbm 37 20 n 121 53 w like strategic games interstellar conquest , ask universe ! \) \( , lumina things , lights \) \(
richmond spiff princeton edu \( stupendous man \) subject temperature dark sky originator news nimaster nntp posting host spiff princeton edu organization princeton university lines 35 \( henry spencer \) writes anyone reference \( something look , recollections \) temperature \( night \) sky seen space \? note , talking temperature microwave background radiation things sky mbr i'm total blackbody temperature thermal radiator would see , disregarding \( shielding \) sun nearby large warm objects henry , read correctly , may asking put blackbody interstellar space \( sun nearby large warm objects' \) , reach thermal equilibrium ambient radiation field \? 's case , let point interstellar dust molecules provide many instances things , well , far blackbodies many different observations , including iras cobe , determined interstellar dust grain temperatures range 40k 150k might look conference proceedings interstellar processes , ed j h , jr , published 1987 try articles et al , , black inside disk galaxy , temperature varies quite bit place place \( close nearest ob association , would guess \) outside galaxy , course , things n't varied hope looking michael richmond heart broke finger richmond astro princeton edu
pashosh wisdom weizmann ac il ward subject long term human missions ward pashosh wisdom weizmann ac il \( ward paul \) organization weizmann institute science , computation center lines 17 article 1993apr28 edu rek siss81 \( robert kaye \) writes contributions space program regular society 1 calculators 2 teflon \( eggs n't stick pan \) 3 pacemakers \( kept grandfather alive 1976 1988 \) n't think touting contributions good idea world war ii produced many many beneficial spinoffs eg radar , jet , rocket technology n't think anyone would argue world war ii , , good thing want people back space program must good thing paul
ethanb ptolemy astro washington edu \( ethan bradford \) subject gamma ray bursters article ptolemy ethanb senator bedfellow mit edu 1993apr26 8998 desire wright edu organization u washington lines 13 nntp posting host ptolemy astro washington edu jbatka desire wright edu reply jbatka desire wright edu 's message 26 apr 93 15 59 15 est article 1993apr26 8998 desire wright edu jbatka desire wright edu writes assume guessed assumed energy event 1 r 2 law , 1 r 2 law incorrect \( assume unknown material dark matter \? \? inhibits gamma ray propagation \) , could possible actually seeing much less energetic events happening much closer us \? even distribution could caused characteristic propagation distance gamma rays shorter 1 2 thickness disk galaxy believe problem theory see gamma ray sources energy range energy n't seem significantly absorbed
nicho vnet ibm com \( greg stewart nicholls \) subject vandalizing sky reply nicho vnet ibm com disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , ibm news software ureply 3 1 x x nicho vnet ibm com news cso uiuc edu lines 11 news cso uiuc edu george f krumins writes according reasoning rights , least none think 've got regard right , someone else regard privilege followups generic ethics morality newsgroup greg nicholls vidi nicho vnet ibm com vici nicho olympus demon co uk veni
pjc jet uk \( peter j card \) subject vandalizing sky organization joint european torus lines 35 access digex net prb access digex com \( pat \) writes planes ruin night sky ruin night sky radio towers ruin night sky like said , get vote , create national parks include air space heard prof mcnally , days astronomy undergraduate , photon pollution easy imagine taking practical steps modify sodium lamps street outside mill hill observatory 12 gauge shotgun \) however , seriously , possible limit effects , adding reflector , light ground , need bonus , power consumption required given illumination level reduced strangely enough , astronomers often seek lobby elected local authorities use lighting systems , considerable success desert areas around major us observatories least , thats mcnally told us , years ago \( british local authorities care less , far see \) suppose right dark skies , worthwhile one illuminated orbital billboards seem especially , presumably area international law , , although find idea right bear anti satellite weapons intriguing peter card , joint european torus , abingdon 3ea uk tel 0235 fax email pjc jet uk compuserve , 366 others made ` ' disclaimer please note personal view construed official comment jet project
stk1203 vax003 stockton edu subject internet resources x added forwarded space digest organization via international space university original sender isu vacation venari cs cmu edu distribution sci lines 4 exit
stk1203 vax003 stockton edu subject internet resources x added forwarded space digest organization via international space university original sender isu vacation venari cs cmu edu distribution sci lines 14 taking course entitled exploring science using internet final project , find compendium internet resources dealing science related topic chose astronomy anyway , wondering anyone knew interesting resources internet provide information astronomy , space , nasa , anything like thanks ! keith stk1203 vax003 stockton edu p box stockton state college pomona , new jersey
dietz cs rochester edu \( paul dietz \) subject gamma ray bursters positional stuff organization university rochester lines 25 article 1993apr29 1 vax1 mankato msus edu belgarath vax1 mankato msus edu writes getting puppy far enough away , bright burst happens nearby , huge created hopefully intersect line general circle given batse , get moderately accurate position say oh , 2 3 degrees closest anyone ever gotten whole hell lot better 2 3 degrees differential timing measurements interplanetary network ignore directional information batse look time arrival three detectors properly arranged , one often get positions arc minutes btw , oort cloud sources n't fairly near future \? grbs short rise times \( 1 ms \) could detect curvature burst wavefront distance order b 2 \( c \) b detector spacing time resolution 1 ms b 2 au , order 16 light years understand statistics reduce number considerably , would geometry burst coming wrong direction paul
subject planets habitable steveg arc ug eds com distribution sci organization eds , gds solutions , cambridge , uk nntp posting host nntp posting user steveg lines 19 article iyd fs7 ece cmu edu , loss fs7 ece cmu edu \( doug loss \) writes article jpg 93apr27135219 holly bnr co uk jpg bnr co uk \( jonathan p gibbons \) writes would appreciate thoughts makes planet habitable humans making asumptions life similar atmosphere evolve given range physical aspects planet question physical aspects simply disallow earth like conditions deleted dandridge cole isaac asimov collaborated book titled , habitable planets man \( think \) 1964 available good libraries , inter library loan high school science version original rand study stephen h dole planets man gives harder numbers graphs \( predates michael hart 's \( later \) work continuously habitable zones \)
dietz cs rochester edu \( paul dietz \) subject planets habitable organization university rochester computer science dept lines 35 would appreciate thoughts makes planet habitable humans making asumptions life similar atmosphere evolve given range physical aspects planet question physical aspects simply disallow earth like conditions good question major blind spots understanding makes earth habitable example , earth 's atmosphere concentration oxygen \? naive answer , clearly incomplete ca n't make atmosphere , oxygen produced consumed plants decay eaten needed plus mechanism fraction resulting reduced material earth , mechanism burial organic matter , mostly sources however , burial requires continental \( deep ocean , burial rate slow material consumed \) suggests planet without large oceans , planet without continents undergoing , hard time oxygen atmosphere particular , ocean planet may hard time supporting oxygen atmosphere also problem oxygen earth 's atmosphere relatively stable geological time , period least 2 orders magnitude longer decay time atmospheric o2 absence convincing feedback mechanism identified perhaps reason weak principle last 500 , oxygen level dropped low , would n't wondering paul f dietz dietz cs rochester edu
loss fs7 ece cmu edu \( doug loss \) subject vandalizing sky organization electrical computer engineering , carnegie mellon distribution na lines 33 article 1993apr27 1 stsci edu hathaway stsci edu writes article fs7 ece cmu edu , loss fs7 ece cmu edu \( doug loss \) writes n't want quote stuff 's said recently , wanted add point enforces rights u , constitution provides bill rights legal rights considered derive i'm sure countries seem hardly like groups discuss , huh \? \? \? legitimate power enforce rights derives consent governed , piece paper n't disagree said right whatever somebody acting enforce bill rights n't come effect ratified states \( indirectly , people \) point defined legal rights common law rights vague situational 's people insisted bill rights constitution , spelling exactly demanded government legitimate illegitimate , power power 's federal government force states grant citizens rights n't wish slugging match , feds win period 're right , n't belong sci space 've said peace rights \( least \) gracious regards , doug loss loss husky bloomu edu
daimi aau dk \( hans erik martino hansen \) subject commercials moon organization daimi computer science department , aarhus university , denmark lines 16 often thought , possible powerfull laser earth , light moon , show surface clearly see eyes new moon coca cola logo moon , easy way target billions people know possible \? erik hansen email daimi aau dk 69 aarhus university dk v denmark , europe
rek siss81 \( robert kaye \) subject long term human missions nntp posting host siss81 edu organization rush presbyterian st luke 's medical center x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 37 ken hayashida \( khayash hsc usc edu \) wrote mike adams suggested discussions long term effects spaceflight human love topic , regulars know , seen henry 's encouraging statement starting talk shall feel community people unique resources deliver world comprehensive book elaborate utility spaceflight fields divergent medical intensive care , agriculture , environmental protection , probably believe general public understands impact spaceflight whole society absence knowledge , see support world 's space effort contributions space program regular society 1 calculators 2 teflon \( eggs n't stick pan \) 3 pacemakers \( kept grandfather alive 1976 1988 \) p regular contributors sci space news sci space shuttle , thanks hard work keeping us informed doings nasa space type agencies n't much time read usenet , always read two groups robert e kaye asst sys admin surgical information systems rush presbyterian st luke 's medical center chicago , il usa internet rek siss81 edu voice \( 312 \) 942 fax \( 312 \) 942 support local community theater groups ! st 's church schaumburg il presents meet st louis opening april 30th
helsinki fi \( veikko \) subject astro ftp list notes organization university helsinki lines 27 hello , ! apologize , n't published astro ftp list since march n't tested sites included list would notified people , stored older issues , lots changes many sites gone away either exist astro stuff removed job keep list hard , notes ion changes , new sites , new contents etc welcome would thank net people give information newest version regards , veikko makela computing centre univ helsinki f n l n
helsinki fi \( veikko \) subject astro ftp list april issue organization university helsinki lines 239 r f p l updated 28 04 1993 short description anonymous ftp file servers containing astronomy space research related material included servers special subdirectories astro stuff much material included general directories list complete data set possible places , would happy kind notices information depending listing newest version file available via anonymous ftp nic funet fi pub astro general txt also many mirror \( copy \) archives simtel 20 army mil \( pc \) sumex aim stanford edu \( mac \) included list mirroring sites listed veikko makela veikko makela helsinki fi computing centre univ helsinki ursa astronomical association server , ip contents directories ames arc nasa gov data news , images , nasa data , 128 102 18 3 spacelink texts , vicar software , faq pub space anu edu au images 130 56 4 90 pub images nasa atari archive umich edu atari 141 211 164 8 atari applications astronomy archive afit af mil satellite software , documents , elements 129 92 1 66 pub space baboon cv nrao edu aips document patches , 192 33 115 103 image processing , fits test images pub aips c scs uiuc edu , starchart \( pc \) 128 174 90 3 pub ccu1 aukuni ac nz pc 130 216 1 5 msdos astronomy \( \) overseas connections refused chara gsu edu journal asa , journal 131 96 5 10 asa , sac news explorer arc nasa gov magellan , viking voyager cdroms 128 102 32 18 cdrom export lcs mit edu distribution 18 24 0 12 contrib physics ucg ie software , predictions , images , 140 203 1 3 fits info , miscellaneous pub astro pub space pub fits fits cv nrao edu fits documents , os support , sample data , 192 33 115 8 test files , sci astro fits archive fits ftp cicb fr images 129 20 128 27 pub images astro ftp cco caltech edu astronomy magazine index 1991 131 215 48 200 pub misc ftp cs tu berlin de pc , amiga , mac , unix , images , general 130 149 17 7 pub astro ftp funet fi pc , mac , cp , atari , amiga , databases , unix , 128 214 6 100 , os 2 , texts , news , solar reports , images , pub astro satellite elements , faq ftp uni kl de , vista image reduction , asteroids 131 246 9 95 pub astro garbo uwasa fi pc 128 214 87 1 pc astronomy ac images 128 130 39 16 pub hanauma stanford edu unix , satellite program , images 36 51 0 16 pub astro pub stmarys ca distribution 140 184 1 1 gsfc nasa gov idl routines 128 183 57 82 iraf noao edu iraf software 140 252 1 1 iraf julius cs qub ac uk space digest 143 117 5 6 pub vuw ac nz astrophysical software 130 195 2 11 pub astrophys kilroy jpl nasa gov satellite elements , spacecraft info 128 149 1 165 pub space hq eso org test images , standards 134 171 11 4 pub pub standards nssdca gsfc nasa gov hst , , astro 1 , nssdca info , , 128 183 36 23 fits standard plaza aarnet edu au images , docs , magellan 139 130 4 6 graphics graphics astro magellan pomona claremont edu yale bright star catalog 134 173 4 160 yale bsc pubinfo jpl nasa gov jpl news , status reports , images 128 149 6 2 ra nrl navy mil mac 128 60 0 21 astro rascal ics utexas edu mac 128 83 138 20 mac rigel acs oakland edu pc 141 210 10 117 pub msdos astronomy rus uni stuttgart de atari 129 69 1 12 soft atari applications astronomy simtel20 army mil pc , cp 192 88 110 20 msdos educ cpm sol deakin oz au garbo uwasa fi c 128 184 1 1 pub pc astronomy solbourne solbourne com pc programs 141 138 2 2 pub rp astro stardent arc nasa gov martian map 128 102 21 44 pub stsci edu \( mac \) , hst info 130 167 1 2 software sumex stanford edu mac 36 44 0 6 info mac app sun0 urz uni heidelberg de pc , misc 129 206 100 126 pub msdos astronomy techreports larc nasa gov nasa langley technical reports 128 155 3 58 pub techreports larc gsfc nasa gov subroutines 128 183 8 77 pub csd unb ca space , solar activity info 131 202 1 2 pub vmd cso uiuc edu weather satellite images 128 174 5 98 wx world std com pc source codes 192 74 137 5 pub astronomy xi uleth ca solar reports , auroral activity forecast 142 66 3 29 maps , solar images , x ray plot , coronal pub solar emission plots abbreviations c copy \( mirror \) archive e communication projects e mail contact addresses interest groups amateur astronomy european astronomy space related bulletin boards e mail catalogue finnish amateur astronomers
bday lambda msfc nasa gov \( brian day \) subject hst servicing mission scheduled 11 days organization nasa msfc lines 13 rdouglas stsci edu \( rob douglas \) writes try land shuttle big huge telescope back could problems shuttle n't designed land much weight payload hst really much heavier spacelab \? \? \? bd brian day bday lambda msfc nasa gov new technology , inc \( 205 \) 461 mission software development division opinions
dempsey stsci edu subject hst servicing mission distribution na organization space telescope science institute lines 22 article 1993apr28 1 stsci edu , zellner stsci edu writes never heard serious consideration hst might brought would horrendous cost transporting , back january february several articles \( wash post , time \) saying nasa considering option considering followup mission 6 12 months servicing mission however , time estimated year \( servicing , checkout , training another shuttle , orbit verification \) quite expensive think may mental exercise real plan n't know robert dempsey \( 410 \) 338 1334 stsci hath stomach fight , let depart passport shall made , convoy put purse would die man 's company fears fellowship die us shakespeare
hathaway stsci edu subject vandalizing sky lines 25 organization space telescope science institute distribution na article access digex net , prb access digex com \( pat \) writes article c63na8 4c1 news cso uiuc edu gfk39017 uxa cso uiuc edu \( george f krumins \) writes say i'm objecting floating billboard , presumably , would move around sky , one , legislating wish people bit common courtesy , would consider greed money impacts ethereal aesthetic values make us human includes need wild unspoiled things , including night sky sorry 's aesthetics argument maybe string shoudl sci space aesthetics planes ruin night sky ruin night sky radio towers ruin night sky like said , get vote , create national parks include air space hereby voting backyard sanctuary one acre object anything like aesthetic reasons \) relief know happy
dan key3 ae su oz au \( daniel newman \) subject lindbergh moon \( give 1g \) reply dan key3 ae su oz au \( daniel newman \) organization aeronautical engineering , university sydney lines 35 nntp posting host key3 ae su oz au article pgf srl03 cacs usl edu pgf srl03 cacs usl edu \( phil g fraering \) writes gnb baby bby com au \( gregory n bond \) writes article kxf news cso uiuc edu jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu \( josh hopkins \) writes voyages discovery could give examples privately funded ones \? much cook 's later exploration privately funded , joseph banks among others \( eg resolution earlier endeavour \) 's voyage galapagos substantially privately funded owners british whaling vessels chancellor privately funded london merchant companies voyages list almost endless funding eighty percent motivated potential profit , ten percent potential glory ten percent desire advance sum human knowledge dan newman aeronautical engineering university sydney sydney nsw 2050 australia dan key3 ae su oz au \( daniel newman \) path key3 ae su oz au ! dan newsgroups sci space subject expires references sender reply dan key3 ae su oz au \( daniel newman \) distribution world organization aeronautical engineering , sydney university keywords
microsoft com \( dave \) subject abyss breathing fluids organization microsoft corp distribution usa lines 26 article agate berkeley edu isaackuo skippy berkeley edu wrote breathable liquids possible \? remember seeing old nova nature things idea touched upon \( might tv show \) nothing else , know liquids possible showed large glass full liquid , put white mouse \( rat \? \) since liquid dense , mouse would float , held clutching tail thing struggled quite bit , certainly held long enough breathing liquid never slow attempts swim top , may humane demonstrations , certainly shows breathable liquids made isaac kuo \( isaackuo math berkeley edu \) twinkle , twinkle , little sig , \( \( \) \) keep less 5 lines big 's incredible several years ago volume liquid rat breath considerably smaller human would breath , maybe possible rat human
sysmgr king eng umd edu \( doug mohney \) subject want billion organization computer aided design lab , u maryland college park lines 18 reply sysmgr king eng umd edu nntp posting host queen eng umd edu article zoo toronto edu , henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) writes c'mon allen telling us cheap get improved sure , get launcher fairly cheap privately rather gummint project 're still talking something cost nine digits per launch , unless guarantee large market justify volume production let 's make deal ! 're going put billion , 'd want budget whole 450 600 million much money throw around first place , i'm going sign contract committing volume production software engineering \? 's like military intelligence , n't \? sysmgr cadlab eng umd edu
penelope sdsc edu \( jeff \) subject political banner space organization san diego supercomputer center ucsd lines 8 distribution world nntp posting host penelope sdsc edu propose , mcdonalds companies could put orbit banners timely political messages , , stop slaughter bosnia ! , etc
health ufl edu \( \) subject test \( please ignore \) organization university florida lines 3 distribution world reply health ufl edu nntp posting host health ufl edu
kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov subject space station redesign , jsc alternative 4 organization nasa jsc gm2 , space shuttle program office x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 54 first , kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov \( hey , 's ! \) wrote 19 \( 2 mb worth ! \) uuencode 'd gif images contain charts outlining one many alternative space station designs considered crystal city second , kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov \( \) wrote posted gif files anonymous ftp server ics uci edu retrieve ics uci edu incoming gif ics uci edu incoming gif ics uci edu incoming gif ics uci edu incoming gif ics uci edu incoming gif ics uci edu incoming gif ics uci edu incoming gif ics uci edu incoming gif ics uci edu incoming gif ics uci edu incoming gif ics uci edu incoming gif ics uci edu incoming gif ics uci edu incoming gif ics uci edu incoming gif ics uci edu incoming gif ics uci edu incoming gif ics uci edu incoming gif ics uci edu incoming gif ics uci edu incoming gif last two scanned color photos others scanned briefing charts deleted ics uci edu system manager days , 's time grab 're interested sorry took long get , trying ames server , 's space need clarify situation incoming directory ics uci edu allow ls command files \( checked 04 28 93 9 35 cdt \) , get \( n't forget binary mode ! \) , ca n't ls incoming directory update mark 's design made cover space news week one design alternatives rejected 's still plugging wish luck using et 's basis space station good idea long time may best design win ken jenks , nasa jsc gm2 , space shuttle program office kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov \( 713 \) 483 4368 good ideas adopted automatically must driven practice courageous admiral g
higgins fnalf fnal gov \( bill higgins beam jockey \) subject dream machines book vaporware spacecraft organization fermi national accelerator laboratory lines 133 nntp posting host fnalf fnal gov summary ron miller book history krieger publishing keywords spacecraft astronautics history sf miller ron miller space artist long distinguished career 've admired paintings \( remember usps solar system exploration stamps last year \? \) writings history spaceflight several years 's working big project almost ready hit streets brochure publisher landed mailbox , thought cool enough type part \( 's rather long \) especially given net 's strong interest vaporware spacecraft dream machines illustrated history spaceship art , science , literature ron miller arthur c clarke krieger publishing company melbourne , florida , usa orig ed 1993 pre publication 84 50 isbn 0 9 text history spaceship cultural technological phenomenon idea vehicle space worlds spring full blown existence half century need preceded ability ot make device several hundred years soon realized worlds one , human beings wanted reach tracing history many imaginative , often , attempts solve problem also reflects history technology , science , astronomy , engineering space travel became feasible , many spacecraft concepts developed ever got drawing board ground , matter also described book , reason pre space age pre flight ideas accurate reflections particular era 's dreams , abilities , knowledge virtually every spaceship concept invented since 1500 , well selected events important developing idea extraterrestrial travel , listed chronological entries allow comparisons actual astronautical events speculative ventures also allow comparisons simultaneous events taking place different countries reveal connections , influences , evolutions every entry accompanied least one illustration nearly every spacecraft concept illustrated schematic drawing allows accurate comparisons made , visualize differences , similarities , influences text interest students astronautical history , also model builders would interested schematic diagrams science fiction fans well aviation history buffs historians science also find book fascinating unique collection illustrations makes visually attractive interesting history spaceship special features includes scale drawings several hundred spacecraft , real fictional contains scores illustrations artwork , drawings , photos contemporary subject includes extremely rare illustrations scarce books novels , exclusive photos drawings spacecraft rare stills famous obscure science fiction films , unpublished photographs nasa archives index , bibliography , appendices included contents part archaeology spaceship \( 360 b c \) part ii invention spaceship \( 1899 \) part iii experimenters \( 1900 1938 \) part iv world war \( 1939 1945 \) part v golden age spaceship \( 1946 1960 \) part vi dawn space age \( 1961 present \) ron miller brochure page stuff 'll try hit high spots former art director albert einstein planetarium smithsonian 's national air space museum member international association astronomical arts , member international astronautical association , fellow british interplanetary society , consulting editor air space smithsonian magazine author , co author , editor , sole illustrator many books since 1979 , including space art , cycles fire , grand tour , many others , well many articles papers book jackets interior art dozen publishers contributor ibm traveling exhibition book space production illustrator movies dune total recall designer ten stamp set commemorative space postage stamps u postal service 1991 \( solar system exploration \) ordering information pre publication price 84 50 1 may 1993 afterwards , price 112 50 krieger publishing company po box melbourne , fl usa direct order line \( 407 \) 727 fax \( 407 \) 951 add 5 00 shipping ups within usa first book , 1 50 additional book foreign orders , add 6 00 first book , 2 00 additional additional charges airmail shipments \) ' ' , , ' , \) \( \) \( \) zap ! \( \) \( \) bill higgins fermi national accelerator laboratory bitnet higgins fnal bitnet internet higgins fnal fnal gov span hepnet 43011 higgins
cohen ssdgwy mdc com \( andy cohen \) subject dc x news organization mda w lines 6 distribution world nntp posting host q5022531 mdc com static test firings scheduled saturday many schedule changes may difficult get test status next two weeks number contacts drying go new mexico go delta clipper ! !
mancus sweetpea jsc nasa gov \( keith mancus \) subject vandalizing sky organization mdssc lines 26 sichase csa2 lbl gov \( scott chase \) writes pgf srl02 cacs usl edu \( phil g fraering \) writes jeff cook ftcollinsco ncr com \( jeff cook \) writes people primitive tribes middle nowhere look see budweiser flying across sky seen movie already one like come think , might send someone quest get rid dang thing one lesser known books \( ca n't remember one right \) , balloon , travelling africa way around world balloon 's five weeks balloon anyone tell get , sure would like reply ! 've looking book ten year , never found \( note looking 200 collector 's item i'm hoping someone published modern times , either paperback hardcover i'm willing spend 50 get copy keith mancus mancus butch jsc nasa gov n5wvr mancus sweetpea jsc nasa gov black powder alcohol , states cities fall , back 's wall leslie fish
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject temperature dark sky organization u toronto zoology lines 16 article well sf ca us metares well sf ca us \( tom van flandern \) writes temperature \( night \) sky seen space \? 'll find allen , c w , astrophysical quantities , press , dover , nh , 3rd edition , pp 268 269 \( 1973 \) ! ! copy allen , never occurred look must getting old 'll look get home thanks temperature 3 degrees k 'd remembered rather higher number , may lunar , earth significant heat source svr4 resembles high speed collision henry spencer u toronto zoology svr3 sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject temperature dark sky organization u toronto zoology lines 20 article 1993apr28 princeton edu richmond spiff princeton edu \( stupendous man \) writes henry , read correctly , may asking put blackbody interstellar space \( sun nearby large warm objects' \) , reach thermal equilibrium ambient radiation field \? basically right question , although interested cases closer home sun behind either natural object effective shielding 's case , let point interstellar dust molecules provide many instances things , well , far blackbodies inside disk galaxy , temperature varies quite bit place place good point \( thanks references \) svr4 resembles high speed collision henry spencer u toronto zoology svr3 sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
zellner stsci edu subject temperature dark sky lines 36 organization space telescope science institute distribution na article 1993apr28 princeton edu , richmond spiff princeton edu \( stupendous man \) writes \( henry spencer \) writes anyone reference \( something look , recollections \) temperature \( night \) sky seen space \? henry , read correctly , may asking put blackbody interstellar space \( sun nearby large warm objects' \) , reach thermal equilibrium ambient radiation field \? 's case , let point interstellar dust molecules provide many instances things , well , far blackbodies many different observations , including iras cobe , determined interstellar dust grain temperatures range 40k 150k yes , 's interstellar grains poor radiators , remotely black bodies consequence lot warmer ambient inside disk galaxy , temperature varies quite bit place place \( close nearest ob association , would guess \) outside galaxy , course , things n't varied graduate school , long time ago , used 10 , 000 deg k dilution factor 10 4 representative values energy background galaxy due starlight ben
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject gamma ray bursters positional stuff organization u toronto zoology lines 21 article 1993apr29 1 vax1 mankato msus edu belgarath vax1 mankato msus edu writes actually , advisor , another classmate mine , talking day putting one detector one pluto satellites realized satellite alone carrying something like 200 pounds eq well , batse detector needs lead shielding protect , 1 alone weighs 200 pounds actually , situation even worse total mass pluto fast flyby spacecraft pounds , support equipment like power communications mass available instruments maybe 10 n't think batse fit actually , would need shielding \? understanding 's mostly give detectors point 've got one i'm sure burst detectors flown deep space missions n't weighed much \( mind , 're probably still heavy people would put pluto specific instruments first , mass spare \) svr4 resembles high speed collision henry spencer u toronto zoology svr3 sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
palmer cco caltech edu \( david palmer \) subject gamma ray bursters energetic could \? organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 17 nntp posting host alumni caltech edu prb access digex com \( pat \) writes article 1993apr26 200406 1 vax1 mankato msus edu belgarath vax1 mankato msus edu writes energetic close coronal model , found around 10 43 erg sec lastly , cosmological model l 10 53 's 'd call moderately energetic , 'd say suggestions could put much energy one second \? jeremy big capacitor \) real big capacitor 's suggested \( specifically , lightning strikes clouds interstellar medium \) david palmer palmer alumni caltech edu palmer tgrs gsfc nasa gov
sichase csa3 lbl gov \( scott chase \) subject vandalizing sky organization lawrence berkeley laboratory berkeley , ca , usa lines 35 distribution world nntp posting host 128 3 254 198 news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article 1993apr28 aio jsc nasa gov , mancus sweetpea jsc nasa gov \( keith mancus \) writes 's five weeks balloon anyone tell get , sure would like reply ! 've looking book ten year , never found \( note looking 200 collector 's item i'm hoping someone published modern times , either paperback hardcover i'm willing spend 50 get copy jules verne collector , tell though tough find , keep eyes open time books various bay area used book stores , every get lucky need n't know book store situation near jsc good bay area , good luck also excellent luck book fair comes sf every year , though prices 100 200 range 50 want spend guess find , wo n't need spend even much , since people n't care think paid 15 dust jacket less otherwise good condition copy , found one day small happened bought lot random books estate sale course , willing buy blind , put 2 advertisement 's newsletter \( exact title escapes moment \) five weeks balloon jules verne books someone sale somewhere , ab way find fact , would surprised n't get multiple offers sale course , takes fun hunting good luck scott new sig construction scott chase please patient sichase csa2 lbl gov thank
morgan com \( jerry \) subject astronauts weightlessness feel like \? keywords weightlessness organization morgan stanley lines 17 nntp posting host katana understand one orbit , inward force gravity one 's center mass exactly balanced outward force orbiting motion , resulting weightlessness want know weightlessness actually feels like example , constant sensation falling \? motion sickness astronauts occasionally experience \? please reply either former current astronaut , someone discussion first hand astronaut thanks ! jerry morgan com compuserve com
zellner stsci edu subject hst servicing mission lines 34 organization space telescope science institute distribution na article 1993apr28 lambda msfc nasa gov , bday lambda msfc nasa gov \( brian day \) writes rdouglas stsci edu \( rob douglas \) writes try land shuttle big huge telescope back could problems shuttle n't designed land much weight payload hst really much heavier spacelab \? \? \? hate obvious , orbiter emergency early stages original hst deployment mission , would land hst bay indeed worried one concern possibility would lose motor something way , make orbit one low give hst useful lifetime atmospheric drag believe decision deploy hst even projected lifetime short six months fact got excellent orbit , upper envelope shuttle never heard serious consideration hst might brought would horrendous cost transporting , cleaning , testing , certifying hardware ground , addition lost observing time cost second deployment mission risks might get good orbit second time , would probably still need \( third \) servicing mission years gyros components wear better two servicing missions space \( could well happen \) bring hst take ben
mccall mksol dseg ti com \( fred j mccall 575 3539 \) subject hst servicing mission scheduled 11 days organization texas instruments inc lines 20 1993apr28 lambda msfc nasa gov bday lambda msfc nasa gov \( brian day \) writes rdouglas stsci edu \( rob douglas \) writes try land shuttle big huge telescope back could problems shuttle n't designed land much weight payload hst really much heavier spacelab \? \? \? ca n't speak sheer mass , part problem hst n't built ever brought back 's built kinds forces support cradle \( additional weight would required insisting perfect safety people n't balls live real world mary shafer , nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com n't speak others n't speak
khayash hsc usc edu \( ken hayashida \) subject long term space voyanges effect newsgroup \? keywords mars lunar missions organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 42 nntp posting host hsc usc edu article zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) writes response michael adams post vote later sci space medicine similar newsgroup fro discussion long term missions space affects humans adams bother new newsgroup \? want discuss subject , start discussing enough traffic annoy rest us , let know time new newsgroup well , goes first item business establish importance space life sciences whole scheme humankind mean compared football baseball , average joe schmoe n't seem interested even curious spaceflight think forum make major change lack insight education us , way , contribute comprehensive document released general public around world document would scientifically analyze technical aspects long term human habitation space believe long term space exploration program succeed need basically learn engineer \( e spacecraft \) careful analyses engineering , chemical , biological , medical factors good created facilitate human life long duration flight , would like see posts opinions regarding objective methods analyze accepted scientific literature technologies applied long duration spaceflight detailed literature search would interest space advocates clearly important existing space programs essence , would dividing space life science issues various technical problems could solved various technologies database acceptable solutions various problems could form basis detailed discussions involving people , isunet , source ! i'm eager hear comments see posts thread
palmer cco caltech edu \( david palmer \) subject gamma ray bursters organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 27 nntp posting host alumni caltech edu prb access digex com \( pat \) writes 4 \) know 's real close , like slightly extra solar , parallax measurements bursts say beyond 25 au , due low accuracy position determination single detectors wondering , people 's opinion , new physics problem einstein got well known effect copernicus , started looking irregularities planetary motion big enough problem , create new area physics \? little speculative thinking folks may new physics problem \( e problem involving new physics \) however , data good enough rule 100 models use old physics new physics big step , tolerated alternative example , dark matter problem \( 's universe meets eye \) question comparable mystery grbs , much better data regarding postulate new particles time explain , one actually believe particles real \( several \) detects lab david palmer palmer alumni caltech edu palmer tgrs gsfc nasa gov
wingo cspara decnet fedex msfc nasa gov subject hyperknowledge organization university houston lines 45 nntp posting host judy uh edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article 1993apr28 embl heidelberg de , embl heidelberg de \( \) writes announcement hyperknowledge project nextstep motivation group scientists students feel work continuously hindered computer environments dominated incompatible scientific tools monstrous software packages \( often claiming everything \) need object oriented scientific environment tools choose use integrated without parts closed system , highly interactive , extendable \( addition specialized objects combining available tools graphically \) use environment natural extension work , requiring short learning phase practically user documentation know kinda subject sci space , really , want answer , well everyone else 's information people proposing , large already exists purchased today called labview national instruments wonderful object oriented graphical programming language implemented mac 's pc 's vme unix boxes fare superior programming approach ever seen allowed us decrease software development time shuttle payloads 90 percent program specific hardware already analysis capability invent wheel platform may exist \? great idea look available today hydrogen leak shuttle found using software ssme control simulation studies , along real testing msfc handled labview tons applications , ability create virtual instruments accomplish specific custom task maker desires addition ieee 488 support , computer becomes virtual control station , allowing graphic representation remote instrumentation serial support instrument anywhere ground control software main control 1 utilize approach dennis , university alabama huntsville
wingo cspara decnet fedex msfc nasa gov subject gamma ray bursters organization university houston lines 23 nntp posting host judy uh edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article access digex net , prb access digex com \( pat \) writes big enough problem , create new area physics \? little speculative thinking folks pat well pat agree like first idea probably gamma ray signature warp transitions interstellar spacecraft ! \) well makes much sense things first gamma ray burst conference uah great fun watching many gamma ray scientists much given data reductions remember one person particular declared data completely wrong explanation phenomena smooth sky distribution \( heck even shoots warp transition theory \( next conference soon endeavour keep touch fun subject dennis
palmer cco caltech edu \( david palmer \) subject political banner space organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 15 nntp posting host alumni caltech edu penelope sdsc edu \( jeff \) writes propose , mcdonalds companies could put orbit banners timely political messages , , stop slaughter bosnia ! end light pollution ! ! banner would effect subject , banner would david palmer palmer alumni caltech edu palmer tgrs gsfc nasa gov
starbase spd louisville edu \( john e curtis \) subject space surveillance summary space surveillance nntp posting host starbase spd louisville edu organization university louisville keywords satellites spy space lines 6 one main reasons nations like us russia observe satellite launched system nuclear bombs orbit planned detonated leo causing pulses interfering target command control system
kwp wag caltech edu \( kevin w plaxco \) subject gamma ray bursters \? organization california institute technology , pasadena , ca lines 35 nntp posting host wag caltech edu article 27apr199320210230 stdvax gsfc nasa gov abdkw stdvax gsfc nasa gov \( david ward \) writes given fact , spacecraft attitude knowledge approx 2 , might able figure well batse determine location \( rotational \) gamma ray burster knowledge sky map 's accuracy pr material three instruments give accuracies order fractions degree , 's help believe fundamental difference x three instruments focusing instruments , , less , form image , positional errors limited craft attitude resolving power optics batse altogether different beast , effectively 8 coincidence counters , one corner craft positional information triangulated differential signal arrival times detectors positional error would predominantly determined timing errors errors craft attitude since none 8 baste detectors independant angular resolution whatsoever , used determine parallax indeed , parallax would add small component positional error demonstrating puppies beyond oort cloud would require resolution order , since oort cloud postulated extend 0 5 parsec \( together parallax arc second , parsec distance object demonstrates one arc second parallax 2 au base line \) 3 degree accuracy reported true , 're going add baste pluto fast flyby get enough baseline beauty baste gives positional information watches entire sky simultaneously , realy handy combination idea next burst coming kevin
mccall mksol dseg ti com \( fred j mccall 575 3539 \) subject planets habitable distribution sci organization texas instruments inc lines 24 1993apr29 1 arc ug eds com steveg arc ug eds com writes article iyd fs7 ece cmu edu , loss fs7 ece cmu edu \( doug loss \) writes dandridge cole isaac asimov collaborated book titled , habitable planets man \( think \) 1964 available good libraries , inter library loan high school science version original rand study stephen h dole planets man gives harder numbers graphs \( predates michael hart 's \( later \) work continuously habitable zones \) still print available \( loan \) \? remember reading many years ago 's still best thing remember vein insisting perfect safety people n't balls live real world mary shafer , nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com n't speak others n't speak
cray com \( greg titus \) subject hst servicing mission scheduled 11 days lines 20 nntp posting host hemlock organization cray research , inc article 1993apr27 samba oit unc edu bruce scott launchpad unc edu \( bruce scott \) writes boosting hst carrying shuttle would damage , could n't hst brought back earth repair job done \? i'm sure big issue , seems like might till , 1g forces applied mirror mounting \( nearly 1g forces \) applied along telescope 's optical axis , mirror 's base reentry would apply forces along roughly axis , tending pull mirror away mount , landing would apply edge forces mirror mount could one would survive greg greg titus \( zia cray com \) compiler group cray research , inc santa fe , nm opinions expressed herein \( \) purely
dietz cs rochester edu \( paul dietz \) subject gamma ray bursters \? organization university rochester article gap caltech edu kwp wag caltech edu \( kevin w plaxco \) writes resolving power optics batse altogether different beast , effectively 8 coincidence counters , one corner craft positional information triangulated differential signal arrival times detectors obviously count rates low signal rise times long possible cgro , , , 10 meters long \? 'd need time accuracy nanoseconds batse actually measure relative strength detectors \( also function photon energy \) detectors isotropic response right one must model scattering photons material around detector , even scattering photons earth 's atmosphere back onto spacecraft believe reduced error 2 degrees paul f dietz dietz cs rochester edu
baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov \( ron baalke \) subject astronauts weightlessness feel like \? keywords weightlessness organization jet propulsion laboratory lines 26 nntp posting host kelvin jpl nasa gov news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article 1993apr29 morgan com , morgan com \( jerry \) writes want know weightlessness actually feels like example , constant sensation falling \? yes , weightlessness feel like falling may feel strange first , body adjust feeling different sky diving motion sickness astronauts occasionally experience \? body 's reaction strange environment appears induced partly physical discomfort part mental distress people prone others , like people prone get sick roller ride others mental part usually induced lack clear indication way , ie shuttle normally oriented cargo bay pointed towards earth , earth \( ground \) head astronauts 50 astronauts experience form motion sickness , nasa done numerous tests space try see keep number occurances ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab \) 525 3684 telos aweto new zealand pasadena , ca 91109 part caterpillar part vegetable
palmer cco caltech edu \( david palmer \) subject gamma ray bursters positional stuff organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 38 nntp posting host alumni caltech edu henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) writes article 1993apr29 1 vax1 mankato msus edu belgarath vax1 mankato msus edu writes actually , advisor , another classmate mine , talking day putting one detector one pluto satellites realized satellite alone carrying something like 200 pounds eq well , batse detector needs lead shielding protect , 1 alone weighs 200 pounds actually , situation even worse total mass pluto fast flyby spacecraft pounds , support equipment like power communications mass available instruments maybe 10 n't think batse fit pluto fast flyby instrument definition research , instrument payload constraints mass allocation 7 kilograms \( 15 4 lbs \) power allocation 6 watts required instruments visible imaging system \( 1024x1024 ccd , 750 mm fl , f 10 optics \) ir mapping spectrometer \( array , 0 3 energy resolution \) uv spectrometer \( 55 200 nm , 0 5 nm resolution \) radio science \( oscilator incorporated telecom system \) means 10 14 n't leave much room payloads totally unrelated mission spacecraft addition , power come thermal generator , whole space craft 2 feet diameter , booms , means strong gamma lines pu 239 associated background , tends reduce sensitivity somewhat would still nice , group goddard looking david palmer palmer alumni caltech edu palmer tgrs gsfc nasa gov
gfk39017 uxa cso uiuc edu \( george f krumins \) subject gamma ray bursters \? organization university illinois urbana lines 21 kwp wag caltech edu \( kevin w plaxco \) writes article 27apr199320210230 stdvax gsfc nasa gov abdkw stdvax gsfc nasa gov \( david ward \) writes demonstrating puppies beyond oort cloud would require resolution order , since oort cloud postulated extend 0 5 parsec \( together parallax arc second , parsec distance object demonstrates one arc second parallax 2 au base line \) according glossary astronomy astrophysics parsec \( abbreviation parallax second \) distance one astronomical unit angle 1 second arc 1 pc 206 , 265 au 3 086 x 10 13 km 3 26 lt yr george george krumins serpent rainbow gfk39017 uxa cso uiuc edu pufferfish observatory \( \)
rdouglas stsci edu \( rob douglas \) subject hst servicing mission scheduled 11 days originator rdouglas phaedrus stsci edu organization space telescope science institute lines 44 article 1993apr28 mksol dseg ti com , mccall mksol dseg ti com \( fred j mccall 575 3539 \) writes 1993apr28 lambda msfc nasa gov bday lambda msfc nasa gov \( brian day \) writes rdouglas stsci edu \( rob douglas \) writes try land shuttle big huge telescope back could problems shuttle n't designed land much weight payload hst really much heavier spacelab \? \? \? ca n't speak sheer mass , part problem hst n't built ever brought back 's built kinds forces support cradle \( additional weight would required throw mass telescope 11 , 600 kg \( 25 , 500 lb \) know space lab weighs , believe less anyone verify \? \? also , remember weight concern , many others noted , one possible concern responding statement boost , ca n't land different problems rob rob douglas space 3700 san martin drive ai software engineer telescope baltimore , md 21218 , usa advance planning systems branch science phone \( 410 \) 338 internet rdouglas stsci edu institute fax \( 410 \) 338 disclaimer type opinions mine ! unless course fall standard intellectual property guidelines intellect , doubt besides , useful intellectual property , think would type \? rob douglas space 3700 san martin drive ai software engineer telescope baltimore , md 21218 , usa advance planning systems branch science phone \( 410 \) 338
bell nssdca gsfc nasa gov \( e v bell , ii nssdc hstx gsfc nasa \( 301 \) 513 \) subject displaying compressed voyager images mac organization nasa goddard space flight center lines 38 news software vax vms vnews 1 41 sorry , 've lost track asked question originally \( news server gsfc keeps things around tremendously short periods time \) , wanted certain replied someone asked displaying compressed images voyager imaging cd roms mac peter ford \( mit \) pointed , decompression program available via ftp \( sorry , n't remember name node offhand , although 's mit edu \) case , though , one mac display programs \( cd rom browser dana swift \) display compressed images directly program shareware distributed nssdc nominal reproduction costs \( 9 shipping , memory serves \) cover shareware price go dana diligent work upgrades , however request current pricing information , information available display software , catalogs , data nssdc , contact user support office national space science data center coordinated request user support office \( \) mail code 633 nasa goddard space flight center greenbelt , md 20771 phone \( 301 \) 286 6695 fax \( 301 \) 286 dr edwin v bell , ii e mail mail code 633 9 \( span \) bell national space science nssdc bell data center nssdca bell nasa bell goddard space flight center \( internet \) bell nssdca gsfc nasa gov greenbelt , md 20771 \( 301 \) 513
baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov \( ron baalke \) subject mars exploration lecture organization jet propulsion laboratory lines 45 distribution world nntp posting host kelvin jpl nasa gov keywords mars , jpl news software vax vms vnews 1 41 aiaa san gabriel valley section sponsoring following lecture mars exploration jet propulsion lab admission free open public next frontier challenge mars exploration date may 6 , 1993 time 6 00pm 8 30 pm location von auditorium jet propulsion lab 4800 oak grove drive pasadena , california following five speakers featured science fiction perspective tom science fiction writer mars observer dr arden project scientist , mars observer jpl mars '94 dr arthur l lane instrument manager , mars '94 jpl mars environmental survey \( mesur \) richard cook mission designer jpl manned mission mars dr robert senior engineer , martin marietta astronautics information , contact aiaa 800 683 mark leon 310 332 1098 ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab \) 525 3684 telos aweto new zealand pasadena , ca 91109 part caterpillar part vegetable
stephens geod emr ca \( dave stephenson \) subject vandalizing sky nntp posting host ngis geod emr ca organization dept energy , mines , resources , ottawa lines 15 mancus sweetpea jsc nasa gov \( keith mancus \) writes jeff cook ftcollinsco ncr com \( jeff cook \) writes people primitive tribes middle nowhere look sort happened real back 1920 's travellers sudan would find strange cigar shaped designs native huts asked locals would say picture great omen appeared sky lz 53 flying bulgaria german east africa supplies 1917 \( back since fooled british secret service \) dave stephenson geological survey canada ottawa , ontario , canada internet stephens geod emr ca
jgladu bcm tmc edu \( grungy \) subject long term human missions organization systems support center , bcm lines 36 nntp posting host j ssctr bcm tmc edu article 1993apr29 weizmann ac il , ward pashosh wisdom weizmann ac il \( ward paul \) wrote 1 calculators 2 teflon \( eggs n't stick pan \) 3 pacemakers \( kept grandfather alive 1976 1988 \) n't think touting contributions good idea world war ii produced many many beneficial spinoffs eg radar , jet , rocket technology n't think anyone would argue world war ii , , good thing want people back space program must good thing disagree tout , although agree space program inherently good thing people today care cost \? 's \? could care less whether something simply worthwhile society become increasingly geared toward short term \( could read ! \) could n't care less next week , much less next century want something show expenditure want think tell things using spinoffs space program way prove worth vote pay taxes continued existence space program relies upon money 02 btw n't forget velcro john systems support center baylor college medicine internet jgladu bcm tmc edu voice \( 713 \) 798 us mail one baylor plaza , houston , texas opinions expressed obviously
ethanb ptolemy astro washington edu \( ethan bradford \) subject gamma ray bursters article ptolemy ethanb 1993apr27 132255 12653 tpl68k0 tplrd tpl oz au steinly 93apr27121443 topaz ucsc edu organization u washington lines 59 nntp posting host kepler astro washington edu steinly topaz ucsc edu \( steinn sigurdsson \) reply steinly topaz ucsc edu 's message 27 apr 93 12 14 43 article steinly 93apr27121443 topaz ucsc edu steinly topaz ucsc edu \( steinn sigurdsson \) writes problem oort cloud sources absolutely plausible mechanism proposed would involve new physics far tell closest conventional oort sources model b field pinching comets , 's got many holes count , least good try plausible model grb 's astronomical distances \? recent observations ruled merging neutron star hypothesis , lot problems , anyhow look implausible models fundamentally allowed independent models paper possibility grb 's oort cloud came astrophysics abstract service get copy paper , send message astro ph subject line get abstract paper currently favored explanation origin grbs puts cosmological distances long distance indicator events possible sources distributed remain consideration oort cloud comets kept list , although known mechanism generating grbs cometary nuclei unlikely may seem , possibility grbs originate solar cometary cloud cannot excluded disproved use available data distribution grbs \( batse catalogue march , 1992 \) , catalogue cometary orbits williams \( 1992 \) investigate whether observational indication correlations angular distributions grbs , assuming distribution direction reflect , least extent , true variations column density oort cloud also apply test distributions performed variety statistical tests \( test distributions galactic latitude , chi 2 test spherical multiple moments , 2 cross correlation analysis \) , including testing sub samples isolating effect possible observational biases tests imply unlikely two distributions agree , statistical significance sufficient ruling connection complete confidence performed monte carlo simulations show number bursts exceeds sim 800 possible rule correlation angular distributions currently , combination tests large disagreement found parameter makes oort cloud comets unlikely related grbs
jeff cook ftcollinsco ncr com \( jeff cook \) subject vandalizing sky jeff cook ftcollinsco ncr com pgf srl02 cacs usl edu csa2 lbl gov distribution world organization none lines 22 reply sichase csa2 lbl gov 's message 26 apr 93 18 10 00 gmt article csa2 lbl gov sichase csa2 lbl gov \( scott chase \) writes article pgf srl02 cacs usl edu , pgf srl02 cacs usl edu \( phil g fraering \) writes jeff cook ftcollinsco ncr com \( jeff cook \) writes people primitive tribes middle nowhere look see budweiser flying across sky seen movie already actually , idea , like good ideas , comes jules verne , gods must crazy comment top head n't aware already thought guess 's true 's nothing new sun \( case , flying billboards \) jeff cook jeff cook ftcollinsco ncr com
tkelso afit af mil \( ts kelso \) subject two line orbital element set space shuttle keywords space shuttle , orbital elements , keplerian nntp posting host scgraph afit af mil organization air force institute technology lines 18 current orbital elements norad two line element sets carried celestial bbs , \( 513 \) 427 0674 , updated daily \( possible \) documentation tracking software also available system service satellite user community , current elements current shuttle mission provided celestial bbs may accessed 24 hours day 300 , 1200 , 2400 , 4800 , 9600 bps using 8 data bits , 1 stop bit , parity element sets \( also updated daily \) , shuttle elements , documentation software also available via anonymous ftp archive afit af mil \( 129 92 1 66 \) directory pub space sts 55 1 93 27 93117 00000 0 3 0 63 2 28 259 259 61 15 201 dr ts kelso assistant professor space operations tkelso afit af mil air force institute technology
moses pan arc nasa gov \( julie moses \) subject temperature dark sky organization nasa ames research center lines 29 anyone reference \( something look , recollections \) temperature \( night \) sky seen space \? note , talking temperature microwave background radiation things sky mbr i'm total blackbody temperature thermal radiator would see , disregarding \( shielding \) sun nearby large warm objects i'm sure help , \( local \) interstellar radiation field measured modeled various groups remember things correctly , models involved contributions three different bb sources , 's obvious temperature background radiation local area however , following references give interstellar radiation density function wavelength , integrate average appropriate manner get effective temperature like witt johnson \( 1973 \) astrophys j 181 , 363 368 henry et al \( 1980 \) astrophys j 239 , 859 866 et al \( 1983 \) astron astrophys 128 , 212 229 see , references date , might get started hope helps , julie
steinly topaz ucsc edu \( steinn sigurdsson \) subject gamma ray bursters organization lick observatory uco lines 52 1993apr27 132255 12653 tpl68k0 tplrd tpl oz au steinly 93apr27121443 topaz ucsc edu ethanb ptolemy astro washington edu nntp posting host topaz ucsc edu reply ethanb ptolemy astro washington edu 's message 28 apr 93 21 51 46 gmt article ethanb ptolemy astro washington edu ethanb ptolemy astro washington edu \( ethan bradford \) writes article steinly 93apr27121443 topaz ucsc edu steinly topaz ucsc edu \( steinn sigurdsson \) writes problem oort cloud sources absolutely plausible mechanism proposed would involve new physics far tell closest conventional oort sources model b field pinching comets , 's got many holes count , least good try plausible model grb 's astronomical distances \? n't plausible models grbs distances \) recent observations ruled merging neutron star hypothesis , lot problems , anyhow look implausible models fundamentally allowed independent models hmm , superbowl burst claimed press releases cast doubt merging ns hypothesis , 've read \( n't seen papers , press \) 'd say consistent merging ns models paper possibility grb 's oort cloud came astrophysics abstract service get copy abstract paper indicator events possible sources distributed remain consideration oort cloud comets kept list , although known mechanism generating grbs cometary nuclei unlikely may seem , possibility grbs originate solar cometary cloud cannot excluded disproved propose mechanism grbs oort \( , , anti matter annihilation fit spectra least far understand annihilation spectra \) big difference 's ignoring question fit distribution oort distribution oort distribution well known particular comet \( well known \) good measure oort cloud distribution steinn sigurdsson lick observatory steinly lick ucsc edu standard disclaimer laws gravity , strict 're bending benefit b b 1988
jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu \( josh hopkins \) subject vandalizing sky organization university illinois urbana lines 13 i'm wondering vandalize proper word use situation dictionary defines vandalism willful malicious public private property , especially anything beautiful would agree sky beautiful , public private property personally prefer natural skies , far city lights sans aircraft however , also something said able look sky see satellite many people get real kick , especially n't seen one josh hopkins jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu find way make one attributed hannibal
baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov \( ron baalke \) subject mars observer update 04 28 93 organization jet propulsion laboratory lines 40 distribution world nntp posting host kelvin jpl nasa gov keywords mars observer , jpl news software vax vms vnews 1 41 forwarded mars observer project mars observer status report april 28 , 1993 12 40 pm pdt flight sequence c9 active 00 11 , tuesday , april 27 activities beginning shortly 5 00 yesterday , c9 commanded spacecraft execute series rolls provide mag \( magnetometer \) team data points varying spacecraft attitudes orientations purpose better characterizing spacecraft generated magnetic field effect instrument spacecraft commanded back sun star init state 9 07 establish reference transition back array normal spin began 11 17 , sequence powered board transmitter 11 18 telemetry occurred approximately 11 30 4 kbs science engineering downlink data rate high gain antenna subsystem engineers report systems appear nominal command terminate using low gain antenna uplink sent 12 31 pm uplink downlink currently via hga mag calibration data recorded digital tape recorders 2 3 playback dtr 2 scheduled take place tomorrow morning 8 11 12 42 pm playback dtr 3 scheduled take place tomorrow evening beginning 11 57 pm ending 4 28 friday dtr playback performed via high gain antenna 42 , 667 bits per second upon verification successful dtr , downlink maintained 4k e rate mag cal activity timeline ends shortly 5 00 friday morning ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab \) 525 3684 telos aweto new zealand pasadena , ca 91109 part caterpillar part vegetable
wingert vnet ibm com \( bret wingert \) subject level 5 \? organization ibm , federal systems co software services lines 33 disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , ibm news software ureply 3 1 mit edu \( david harris \) message id mit edu wingert vnet ibm com subject level 5 shuttle software work bret , familiar software work received level 5 rating , could post description references \? think many people would interested know ibm team effort differently organizations projects earned rating familiar project onboard shuttle flight software project software controls space shuttle dynamic phases well orbit ultra high reliability extremely low error rates several papers published subject 'll collect references may article ibm systems journal late '93 , early '94 magic formula dedicated disciplined folks worked put together process finds removes errors corrected based errors escape present one day overview process periodically interested folks next one may 19th washington , c fax specifics interested bret wingert wingert vnet ibm com \( 713 \) 282 fax \( 713 \) 282
mock mit edu \( patrick c mock \) subject gamma ray bursters \? organization mit center space research lines 24 distribution world nntp posting host mit edu originator mock article gap caltech edu , kwp wag caltech edu \( kevin w plaxco \) writes article 27apr199320210230 stdvax gsfc nasa gov abdkw stdvax gsfc nasa gov \( david ward \) writes believe fundamental difference x three instruments focusing instruments , , less , form image , positional errors limited craft attitude resolving power optics batse altogether different beast , effectively 8 coincidence counters , one corner craft positional information triangulated differential signal arrival times detectors quite right differential arrival time requires interplanetary get good positions differential arrival eight detectors differ 10 's nanoseconds smaller batse 's microsecond timing capabilities batse , ulysses , mars used technique batse detector full sky field view sensitivity detector decreases increasing angle incidence burst position sky determined comparing count rates different detectors pat
abdkw stdvax gsfc nasa gov \( david ward \) subject command loss timer \( galileo update 04 22 93 \) news software vax vms vnews 1 4 b1 keywords galileo , jpl organization goddard space flight center robotics lab lines 18 article 1993apr26 1189 bnr ca , jcobban bnr ca \( jim cobban \) writes read past fail safe mechanisms spacecraft , assumed command loss timer sort function however always find disturbing oxymoron op command something command changes behavior status spacecraft op command know semantics , op n't anything command loss timer simply looking command , command op simply spacecraft command drops bits big bit bucket sky op also get used provide delays command sequences \( used thruster gro , er , compton \) verify command links beginning events , rather useful command , intelligent fdc test galileo \( command loss timer \) david w gsfc \( still looking gro data , even though i'm wrong david \)
abdkw stdvax gsfc nasa gov \( david ward \) subject hst servicing mission scheduled 11 days news software vax vms vnews 1 4 b1 organization goddard space flight center robotics lab lines 23 article 1993apr27 samba oit unc edu , bruce scott launchpad unc edu \( bruce scott \) writes boosting hst carrying shuttle would damage , could n't hst brought back earth repair job done \? two shuttle flights would required , adding horrendous expense \? n't think reboost exercise analogous shuttle landing launch terms stresses etc would think reboost gentile push , landing , launch two would put mechanical stress instruments additionally , might concern landing loads shuttle event laden landing finally , probably thought went possible contamination problems instruments came back earth course , cost two shuttle launches good reason avoid something might done one shuttle launch 's hoping 's gang gets job done right first time david w gsfc \( used work frank \)
garym alsys com \( gary morris ignite \) subject hst servicing mission scheduled 11 days organization alsys group , san diego , ca , usa lines 24 1993apr28 lambda msfc nasa gov bday lambda msfc nasa gov \( brian day \) writes rdouglas stsci edu \( rob douglas \) writes try land shuttle big huge telescope back could problems shuttle n't designed land much weight payload hst really much heavier spacelab \? \? \? hst 25 , 500 lbs \( 11 , 600 kg \) n't include cradle would cargo bay deployed spacelab j sts 47 21 , 861 lbs \( according press kit \) someone else pointed unable deploy reason would land still cargo bay planned contingency problem shuttle , though would eliminate ksc landing site , still go edwards landing something like spacelab cargo bay garym gary morris internet garym alsys com teleuse development uucp uunet ! alsys com ! garym alsys group \( telesoft \) phone 1 619 457 2700 san diego , ca , usa fax 1 619 452 1334
richmond spiff princeton edu \( stupendous man \) subject interstellar 3 4k notes pluto charon talk pluto mission originator news nimaster keywords goofed nntp posting host spiff princeton edu organization princeton university lines 73 \( sci space readers skip first paragraph \) yesterday , response henry spencer 's question temperature blackbody interstellar space , said dust grains acts blackbodies , 're 40 150 k well , dead wrong local interstellar dust expert , bruce , informed dust grains n't good radiators far ir , warm actually , ambient radiation field distant stars bring true blackbody 3 4 kelvin sorry , henry , anyone else misled obviously , time take another ism class \( news , alan stern southwest research institute gave talk pluto charon binary system yesterday gave brief overview currently accepted system parameters \( volume ratio 8 1 , mass ratio 15 1 , plus lots \) gave thoughts formation pluto charon idea lots lots small outer solar system , masses distributed power law kind time , accreted larger bodies got scattered solar system close encounters jupiter saturn , many accreted gas giants , especially uranus neptune large captured neptune call triton captured \? perhaps collision smaller , already existing moon , perhaps close passage neptune 's atmosphere aerobraking ! notes two recently discovered kuiper belt objects , 1992 qb1 1993 fw , plus chiron , mass , identifies group one larger bodies triton pluto charon pluto charon , thinks , formed impacting body hit proto pluto , knocking material ring around pluto later accreted charon similar ideas formation earth 's moon good evidence spectra surfaces pluto charon different \( pluto methane frost , charon n't \) , used evidence impact theory believes may around 1000 pluto chiron sized objects remaining relatively stable zone outside neptune 's orbit , beyond 35 au 1992 qb1 1993 fw first members population found , model note bodies dark , since surfaces covered methane frost , dark , long chain hydrocarbons reason pluto high albedo \( around 0 5 , think \) surface warms enough around perihelion , atmosphere freezes , thirty years later , forms bright , new frost bodies much farther away 30 au going hard see hope n't made errors transcription see howling mistake , 's undoubtedly mine , way , 's one top guns behind pluto fast flyby mission \( think \) , said current plans use titan 4 send probe trajectory pluto \( speaking loosely time \) 'd like use proton , gives slightly smaller velocity costs much less figures 500 million 2 titan 4 launches \( two separate probes , launched separately \) , 120 million 2 proton launches told story soviets originally offered sell proton launches 30 million , forced increase prices us order allowed marketplace i'm telling said michael michael richmond heart broke finger richmond astro princeton edu
hausner qucis queensu ca \( hausner \) subject long term human missions organization sc , c , queen 's , kingston , canada lines 18 article 1993apr28 edu rek siss81 \( robert kaye \) writes contributions space program regular society 1 calculators 2 teflon \( eggs n't stick pan \) sorry split hairs , read making atomic bomb \( \) teflon developed world war 2 needed tubing uranium passed gradually enriched corrosive , inert yet flexible material needed seals 3 pacemakers \( kept grandfather alive 1976 1988 \) hausner \( hausner qucis queensu ca \) \( \) richard rhodes , making atomic bomb , simon
pebbles es com \( michael rowley \) subject command loss timer \( galileo update 04 22 93 \) keywords galileo , jpl nntp posting host 130 187 85 70 organization design systems division , evans sutherland , slc , ut lines 27 article 1993apr26 1189 bnr ca jcobban bnr ca \( jim cobban \) writes read past fail safe mechanisms spacecraft , assumed command loss timer sort function however always find disturbing oxymoron op command something command changes behavior status spacecraft op command course terminology comes jet propulsion laboratory nothing jet propulsion n't know got idea , jpl 's history dates back 1930s caltech professor named von conducted experiments rocket propulsion group graduate students present site jet propulsion laboratory army started funding laboratory jurisdiction untill late 1950s nasa took early research conducted laboratory led many applications first jet assisted takeoff rockets aircraft think explain jpl got 's name , know , worked five wonderful years mike jim cobban jcobban bnr ca phone \( 613 \) 763 bnr ltd bnr ca ! ! jcobban fax \( 613 \) 763 2626
baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov \( ron baalke \) subject galileo update 04 29 93 keywords galileo , jpl organization jet propulsion laboratory lines 134 nntp posting host kelvin jpl nasa gov news software vax vms vnews 1 41 forwarded neal , galileo mission director galileo mission director status report post launch april 23 29 , 1993 spacecraft 1 april 22 23 , delta one way range \( \) passes performed dss 14 63 \( goldstone madrid 70 meter antennas \) dss 14 43 \( goldstone canberra 70 meter antennas \) , respectively initial results indicate delta pass april 22 unsuccessful due ground station hardware problems one april 23 successfully performed 2 april 23 , cruise science memory readout \( mro \) performed magnetometer \( mag \) instrument analysis indicates data received properly 3 april 23 , spare power relay contacts commanded closed via spacecraft stored sequence relays commanded closed cds \( command data subsystem \) prior launch commanded closed preclude possibility jupiter pps relays wiring source internal electrostatic charge \( \) 4 april 26 , cruise science memory readouts \( mro \) performed extreme ultraviolet spectrometer \( euv \) , dust detector \( dds \) , magnetometer \( mag \) instruments preliminary analysis indicates data received properly 5 period april 26 april 27 , navigation cycle performed navigation cycle provided near continuous acquisition two way doppler ranging data three consecutive passes spacecraft dss 63 , dss 14 , dss 43 6 april 26 , real time commands sent test slew radio relay antenna \( rra \) preparation mini sequence slew test april 28 rra approximately 3 5 degrees stow approximately 20 3 degrees preliminary analysis indicated antenna 18 degrees well within predicted range rra commanded back approximately 15 2 degrees stow preliminary analysis indicated antenna reached 15 8 degrees also well within predicted range rra motor temperature 1 degree c start activity increased 1 6 degrees c completion verifying proper rra , rra slew test mini sequence spacecraft execution april 28 upon successful uplink , delayed action command \( dac \) sent reposition may 4 initial pre test position also , dac sent turn two way \( \) april 28 prior start rra slew test mini sequence 7 april 27 , op command sent reset command loss timer 264 hours , planned value mission phase 8 april 28 , rra slew test executed nominally spacecraft stored sequence control performed six rra starting 16 degrees stow going 53 degrees , back 25 degrees , 51 degrees , back 22 degrees , 48 degrees back 21 degrees well within predicted range rra motor temperature 2 3 degrees c start activity increased 4 4 degrees c completion completion rra , real time commands sent reconfigure back pre test configuration 9 ac dc bus imbalance measurements exhibited significant change \( greater 25 dn \) throughout period ac measurement reads 17 dn \( 3 9 volts \) dc measurement reads 134 dn \( 15 7 volts \) measurements consistent model developed ac dc special anomaly team 10 spacecraft status april 29 , 1993 , follows \) system power margin 75 watts b \) spin configuration dual spin c \) spin rate sensor 3 star scanner \) spacecraft attitude approximately 23 degrees sun \( lagging \) 4 degrees earth \( leading \) e \) downlink telemetry rate antenna 40bps \( coded \) lga 1 f \) general thermal control temperatures within acceptable range g \) rpm tank pressures within acceptable range h \) orbiter science instruments powered pws , euv , , , mag , hic , dds \) probe powered , temperatures within acceptable range j \) cmd loss timer setting 264 hours time initiation 203 hours gds \( ground data systems \) 1 first galileo gds test 0 command system \( cmd \) took place april 27 , 1993 dss 61 \( madrid 34 meter antenna \) test went well demonstrated new command system interfaced new dsn \( deep space network \) group 5 command processor assembly \( cpa \) test successful next test 0 cmd scheduled may 1 , 1993 dss 15 \( goldstone 34 meter antenna \) 2 april system engineers monthly report \( \) ground system development office \( \) conducted thursday , april 29 review current project institutional \( dsn \) system status conducted going cruise development plus phase 1 2 delivery schedules , past months accomplishments potential problem areas discussed significant schedule changes significant problems reported trajectory noon thursday , april 29 , 1993 , galileo spacecraft trajectory status follows distance earth 187 , 745 , 300 km \( 1 26 au \) distance sun 296 , 335 , 800 km \( 1 98 au \) heliocentric speed 89 , 100 km per hour distance jupiter 522 , 015 , 800 km round trip light time 20 minutes , 58 seconds special topic 1 april 29 , 1993 , total real time commands transmitted galileo since launch , initiated sequence design process initiated real time command process past week , 74 real time commands transmitted 73 initiated sequence design process one initiated real time command process major command activities included commands perform initial rra slew test , uplink rra slew test mini sequence , reposition turn , reset command loss timer , execute rra slew test ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab \) 525 3684 telos aweto new zealand pasadena , ca 91109 part caterpillar part vegetable
pgf srl03 cacs usl edu \( phil g fraering \) subject gamma ray bursters organization univ southwestern louisiana lines 16 prb access digex com \( pat \) writes 4 \) know 's real close , like slightly extra solar , parallax measurements bursts correct , parallax measurements bursts therefore , ca n't tell whether 're slightly extra solar ! \( means parallax ca n't tell us whether 's real close \) phil fraering seems like every day find sorts stuff pgf srl02 cacs usl edu like ancient mayans televison repo man
atae spva ph ic ac uk \( ata etemadi \) subject hyperknowledge organization imperial college science , technology , medicine , london , england lines 33 nntp posting host prawn sp ph article judy uh edu , wingo cspara decnet fedex msfc nasa gov writes article 1993apr28 embl heidelberg de , embl heidelberg de \( \) writes announcement hyperknowledge project nextstep know kinda subject sci space , really , want answer , well everyone else 's information people proposing , large already exists purchased today called labview national instruments wonderful object wonderful object oriented graphical programming language lines deleted afraid mis directed nextstep operating system opposed package read little since steve jobs seem marketing capabilities bill gates info limited probably far inferior windows nt going widely distributed \( another flame ridden story \) innovative features nextstep binary compatibility across platforms \( eg copy program sparc pc would run , opposed buying version package ported pc \) , graphical object oriented design \( postscript \) , supports parallel processing , best based around mach micro kernel make look like unix x , dos , nt even vms feel need package comes even close hope people subscribe hyperknowledge project nextstep finally takes lifetime \) mail dr ata etemadi , laboratory , space atmospheric physics group , imperial college science , technology , medicine internet arpanet earn bitnet atae spva ph ic ac uk ata c ucl ac uk span spva atae atae
pgf srl03 cacs usl edu \( phil g fraering \) subject gamma ray bursters organization univ southwestern louisiana lines 33 ethanb ptolemy astro washington edu \( ethan bradford \) writes u9263012 wampyr cc uow edu au \( walker andrew john \) writes also , come oort cloud would expect see stars oort clouds 's good point perhaps none nearby stars oort clouds \? alpha centauri multiple star system would n't expect oort cloud sure \? maybe proxima might cause problems , oort cloud distances ac ac b together look like point source besides , even solar system 's oort cloud unstable time , right , needs somewhere else , like short period comets belt \? \( maybe i'm something read heard somewhere \) 's nearest single star likely planetary system \? 're able perform broad band survey nearby stars detect planets , wo n't know enough say whether single star planets 're likely find close ones first heck , neutron stars planets , anything planets \( discovery \? \) phil fraering seems like every day find sorts stuff pgf srl02 cacs usl edu like ancient mayans televison repo man
pgf srl03 cacs usl edu \( phil g fraering \) subject gamma ray bursters positional stuff organization univ southwestern louisiana lines 24 belgarath vax1 mankato msus edu writes actually , advisor , another classmate mine , talking day putting one detector one pluto satellites realized satellite alone carrying something like 200 pounds eq well , batse detector needs lead shielding protect , 1 alone weighs 200 pounds decided jeremy talking single batse component , whole thing \? could propose batse probe launch two three ion drive various planetary trajectories resolution 're spaced apart could probably cheaply eject solar system enough flybys patience things would start slow , slowly get better better resolution phil fraering seems like every day find sorts stuff pgf srl02 cacs usl edu like ancient mayans televison repo man
tkelso afit af mil \( ts kelso \) subject two line orbital element set space shuttle keywords space shuttle , orbital elements , keplerian organization air force institute technology lines 18 nntp posting host scgraph afit af mil current orbital elements norad two line element sets carried celestial bbs , \( 513 \) 427 0674 , updated daily \( possible \) documentation tracking software also available system service satellite user community , current elements current shuttle mission provided celestial bbs may accessed 24 hours day 300 , 1200 , 2400 , 4800 , 9600 bps using 8 data bits , 1 stop bit , parity element sets \( also updated daily \) , shuttle elements , documentation software also available via anonymous ftp archive afit af mil \( 129 92 1 66 \) directory pub space sts 55 1 93 27 00000 0 3 0 90 2 28 249 260 152 1416 15 425 dr ts kelso assistant professor space operations tkelso afit af mil air force institute technology
ralph buttigieg z3 fido zeta org au \( ralph buttigieg \) subject give 1 billion first year long moon residents \? organization fidonet gate admin fido socs uts edu au lines 24 original wats scicom alphacdc com g 'day wats scicom alphacdc com 20 apr 93 18 17 , wats scicom alphacdc com wrote wac wats scicom alphacdc com \( bruce watson \) , via kralizec 3 713 602 wac apollo program cost something like 25 billion time wac value dollar worth one would wac take offer assume 6 inflation since 1969 , would worth gd reckon moon mission today could cost thats factor ten reduction cost might possible reduce number using \( russian rockets \? \) gets built , think delta clipper could well achive goal ta ralph golded 2 41 origin world sydney australia \( 02 \) 635 1204 3 713 6 \( 3 713 635 \)
starfighter den mmc com \( michael \) subject hst servicing mission scheduled 11 days keywords hst organization martin marietta astronautics group lines 24 nntp posting host starfighter den mmc com regarding feasability retrieving hst repair \( caution speculation mode engaged \) another consideration n't mentioned yet expect retrieving hst would involve considerably order return cradle cargo bay deployed items \( antennas , especially , solar \) probably retractable fully position , even hand would removed astronauts \( advantage might yield could put new panels n't due thermal cycle stresses \) also expect , discussed , landing loads hst optics structure big issue \( reentry loads much less \) optical components even caged \( assume caged launch \) \? michael starfighter den mmc com gn c r martin marietta astronautics views , martin marietta 's
force ssd lmsc lockheed com subject long term space voyanges effect newsgroup \? reply force ssd lmsc lockheed com organization lmsc , sunnyvale , california lines 71 article hsc usc edu , khayash hsc usc edu \( ken hayashida \) writes first item business establish importance space life sciences whole scheme humankind mean compared football baseball , average joe schmoe n't seem interested even curious spaceflight disagree think average joe interested curious spaceflight sees elitist activity one ever going participate us , way , contribute comprehensive document released general public around world document would scientifically analyze technical aspects long term human habitation space general public going interested technical details long term space habitation \? like idea study , released scientists engineers able use want general public document , 'll need general publication believe long term space exploration program succeed need basically learn engineer \( e spacecraft \) careful analyses engineering , chemical , biological , medical factors good created facilitate human life long duration flight one working controlled ecological life support systems , engineering n't problem problem understanding basic chemical , biological medical factors able engineer efficiently example , way know produce food plants animals food synthesis far advanced orbit farm well 's obviously efficient , use technology reduce mass grow plants instead using dirt engineering comes new technologies bring new basic questions n't answers like , dirt grow tomatoes lettuce right beside , turns ca n't lettuce growth 's grown solution tomatoes consider plants going similar interactions means basic applied scientific research 's needs done technologies developed far also need find interact together 's , would like see posts opinions regarding objective methods analyze accepted scientific literature technologies applied long duration spaceflight first need literature search lot information maybe pick specific area long term habitation could useful , especially make available net look methods analyzing technologies detailed literature search would interest space advocates clearly important existing space programs essence , would dividing space life science issues various technical problems could solved various technologies database acceptable solutions various problems could form basis detailed discussions involving people , isunet , source ! unless unbelievable interest net , think develop detailed data base literature search first accomplish go real analysis data base could useful future engineers 's response ken , think \? tim
atae spva ph ic ac uk \( ata etemadi \) subject abyss breathing fluids nntp posting host prawn sp ph organization imperial college science , technology , medicine , london , england distribution usa lines 8 forever war , one favorite books , passage devoted breathing fluids idea protect people high accelerations required interstellar travel passengers dry cleaning fluid saturated oxygen plenty imaginative ideas book would certainly recommend \( hugo nebula awards \) regards ata \( \)
mcelwre cnsvax uwec edu subject alternative heavy element creation universe organization university wisconsin eau claire lines 103 important info humbly suggested robert 's fans redirect followups alt fan robert mcelwaine , least consider biological alchemy \( another form cold fusion \) \( alternative heavy element creation universe \) simple experiment demonstrate \( prove \) fact biological transmutations \( reactions like mg ca , si c ca , k h ca , n2 co , etc \) , described book biological transmutations louis , 1972 edition best , chapter 17 book secret life plants peter christopher bird , 1973 \( 1 \) obtain good sample plant seeds , kind kinds might work better others \( 2 \) divide sample two groups equal weight number \( 3 \) sprout one group distilled water filter paper three four weeks \( 4 \) separately incinerate groups \( 5 \) weigh residue group residue sprouted group usually weigh least several percent group \( 6 \) analyze residue group mineral content mineral atoms sprouted group heavier mineral elements fusing atoms oxygen , hydrogen , carbon , nitrogen , etc biological transmutations occur routinely , even bodies ingesting source organic silicon \( silicon carbon , extract , \) speed healing broken bones via reaction si c ca , \( much faster merely ingesting calcium directly \) mineral deposits ground formed micro organisms fusing together atoms silicon , carbon , nitrogen , oxygen , hydrogen , etc two reactions si c ca , micro organisms , cause stone sickness statues , building bricks , etc reaction n2 co , hot iron , creates carbon monoxide poison hazard welder operators people near woodstoves \( even properly sealed ones \) bacteria even neutralize radioactivity ! things happen , spite currently accepted laws physics , \( including law says atomic fusion requires extremely high temperatures pressures \) biological transmutations , applications chemistry , physics , biology , ecology , medicine , nutrition , , geology , 1st edition , c louis , active member new york academy science , 1972 , 163 pages , illustrated , swan house publishing co , p box 638 , binghamton , ny secret life plants , peter christopher bird , 1973 , 402 pages , harper row , new york chapters 19 20 entire book fascinating ! information , answers questions , etc , please consult cited sources \( two books \) un altered reproduction dissemination important information encouraged robert e mcelwaine b , physics astronomy , uw ec
bobo thejester cray com \( bob kierski \) subject philosophy quest boldly \? originator bobo thejester cray com lines 21 nntp posting host thejester organization cray research , inc number philosophical questions would like ask 1 \) encounter life form space exploration , determine capture , imprison , \? 2 \) encounter civilization suffering , expend resources earth help \? 3 \) deseases currently deadly undetectable , done ensure new deadly deseases n't brought back , deseases n't destroy life elsewhere \? day , \( \) bobo
olivia la asu edu \( tom o'reilly \) subject commercials moon organization mars observer tes project , asu , tempe az distribution sci space lines 13 daimi aau dk \( hans erik martino hansen \) writes coca cola logo moon , easy way target billions people arthur c clarke way ahead one wrote short story \( title \? \) 1950s describing exactly proposal ! tom o'reilly department geology arizona state university
mcimail com \( karl \) subject single launch space station x added forwarded space digest organization via international space university original sender isu vacation venari cs cmu edu distribution sci lines 13 andy cohen cohen ssdgwy mdc com writes single launch core station concept shuttle external tank solid rocket boosters would used launch station orbit shuttle main engines would mounted tail station module launch jettisoned et separation jettison \? hold shuttle bring use spares \? karl sold soul uncle sam marked resale
steinly topaz ucsc edu \( steinn sigurdsson \) subject nasa budget sts costs organization lick observatory uco lines 12 nntp posting host topaz ucsc edu fraction nasa civil servant opposed contractor rules reduction work force civil servants \? eg , say shuttle program terminated , much payroll reduced \? steinn sigurdsson saw two shooting stars last night lick observatory wished satellites steinly lick ucsc edu wrong wish space hardware \? standard disclaimer wish , wish , wish 'd care b b 1983
khayash hsc usc edu \( ken hayashida \) subject planets habitable organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 53 distribution sci nntp posting host hsc usc edu article jpg 93apr27135219 holly bnr co uk jpg bnr co uk \( jonathan p gibbons \) writes would appreciate thoughts makes planet habitable humans making asumptions life similar atmosphere evolve given range physical aspects planet question physical aspects simply disallow earth like conditions eg temperature range \( temp purely dependant dist sun suns temperature \) atmospheric \? know nothing human tolerance planetary mass \? gravity surface important , much human bodies take day day also mass effect atmosphere thinking planets 3 3 times mass earth suppose density important well climate etc concern , axial tilt etc etc three factors relate one another jonathan jonathan , interesting questions wonder whether moon could ever supported atmosphere 'd interested knowing geology environmental sciences friends think human tolerances , best example human endurance terms altitude \( e low atmospheric pressure lower oxygen partial pressure \) opinion scaling mt everest without oxygen assistance accomplished team trained high altitudes quite awhile \( think months \) flown helicopter training altitude equivalent altitude mount everest , began planet 's highest peak without oxygen tanks quite feat physiological endurance , tried go 20 , 000 feet exert , would probably pass , get altitude sick , could even die limit low pressure high pressure situations would limited duration time takes slowly higher pressure skin divers would know alot high pressure situations could tell safely make deep dives without getting bends military experiments put people several atmospheres pressure \( sure high limit papers n't front \) usually certain point , nitrogen air becomes toxic body start acting idiotic divers call nitrogen afflicted dangerous irrational things , like taking diving mask oxygen tank order talk fish 100 feet water \( hope diving folk elaborate matter , diving expert \) mars cannot support human life without atmosphere thin \( 1 100 th earth 's atmospheric density \) addition , mars atmosphere mostly carbon dioxide basically , would need pressure suit , 'd die low pressure interesting huh \? ken khayash hsc usc edu
wraith cs uow edu au \( glen justin balmer \) subject rocket types organization university wollongong , nsw , australia lines 13 nntp posting host wraith cs uow edu au week saw tv program american space industry nasa said 60 's developed rocket used ions nuclear particles government however , n't give 1billion developement full scale rocket anybody see program \? , anybody heard particle system \? thanx 8 \) glen balmer
wingo cspara decnet fedex msfc nasa gov subject hst servicing mission scheduled 11 days organization university houston lines 33 distribution world nntp posting host judy uh edu keywords hst news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article 1993apr29 den mmc com , starfighter den mmc com \( michael \) writes regarding feasability retrieving hst repair \( caution speculation mode engaged \) another consideration n't mentioned yet expect retrieving hst would involve considerably order return cradle cargo bay deployed items \( antennas , especially , solar \) probably retractable fully position , even hand would removed astronauts \( advantage might yield could put new panels n't due thermal cycle stresses \) also expect , discussed , landing loads hst optics structure big issue \( reentry loads much less \) optical components even caged \( assume caged launch \) \? would nice someone hst program talking instead speculation going understand dr frank six marshall space flight center problem bringing hst back designed way begin also understanding solar arrays one items replaced mission originals built brit aerospace think new ones currently working guys msfc charge hst power system , although spoken long time hst dennis , university alabama huntsville
jplpost jpl nasa gov \( jpl public information \) subject jpl info summary solar system glance organization jet propulsion laboratory lines 1160 nntp posting host jpl nasa gov file text image files jpl missions available jpl info public access computer site , reachable internet via anonymous ftp pubinfo jpl nasa gov \( 128 149 6 2 \) dialup modem 1 \( 818 \) 354 1333 , 9600 bits per second , parameters n 8 1 solar system glance information summary pms 010 \( jpl \) june 1991 jpl 410 34 1 6 91 nasa national aeronautics space administration jet propulsion laboratory california technology pasadena , california printed copy publication contact public mail office nasa center geographic region introduction small world upon cosmic ocean untold thousands years ancient astronomers observed points light appeared move among stars called objects planets , meaning wanderers , named roman deities jupiter , king gods mars , god war mercury , messenger gods venus , god love beauty , saturn , father jupiter god agriculture also observed comets sparkling tails , shooting stars apparently falling sky science flourished european renaissance fundamental physical laws governing planetary motion discovered , orbits planets around sun calculated 17th century , astronomers pointed new device called telescope heavens made startling discoveries years since 1959 amounted golden age solar system exploration rocketry world war ii enabled machines break grip earth 's gravity travel moon planets united states sent automated spacecraft , human expeditions , explore moon automated machines orbited landed venus mars explored sun 's environment observed comets , made close range surveys flying past mercury , jupiter , saturn , uranus neptune travelers brought quantum leap knowledge understanding solar system electronic sight senses automated spacecraft , color given worlds centuries appeared earth bound eyes fuzzy disks indistinct points light dozens previously unknown objects discovered future historians likely view pioneering flights solar system remarkable achievements 20th century automated spacecraft national aeronautics space administration 's \( nasa 's \) automated spacecraft solar system exploration come many shapes sizes designed fulfill separate specific mission objectives , craft share much common spacecraft consists various scientific instruments selected particular mission , supported basic subsystems electrical power , trajectory orientation control , well processing data communicating earth electrical power required operate spacecraft instruments systems nasa uses solar energy arrays photovoltaic cells small nuclear generators power solar system missions rechargeable batteries employed backup supplemental power imagine spacecraft successfully journeyed millions miles space fly one time near planet , cameras sensing instruments pointed wrong way speeds past target ! help prevent , subsystem small thrusters used control spacecraft thrusters linked devices maintain constant gaze selected stars earth 's early used stars navigate oceans , spacecraft use stars maintain bearings space subsystem locked onto fixed points reference , flight controllers keep spacecraft 's scientific instruments pointed target body craft 's communications antennas pointed toward earth thrusters also used fine tune flight path speed spacecraft ensure target body encountered planned distance proper trajectory 1959 1971 , nasa spacecraft dispatched study moon solar environment also scanned inner planets earth mercury , venus mars three worlds , , known terrestrial planets share solid rock composition early planetary reconnaissance missions , nasa employed highly successful series spacecraft called mariners flights helped shape planning later missions 1962 1975 , seven mariner missions conducted first surveys planetary neighbors space mariners used solar panels primary power source first final versions spacecraft two wings covered photovoltaic cells mariners equipped four solar panels extending bodies although mariners ranged mariner 2 venus spacecraft , weighing 203 kilograms \( 447 pounds \) , mariner 9 mars orbiter , weighing 974 kilograms \( 2 , 147 pounds \) , basic design remained quite similar throughout program mariner 5 venus spacecraft , example , originally backup mariner 4 mars flyby mariner 10 spacecraft sent venus mercury used components left mariner 9 mars orbiter program 1972 , nasa launched pioneer 10 , jupiter spacecraft interest shifting four outer planets jupiter , saturn , uranus neptune giant balls dense gas quite different terrestrial worlds already surveyed four nasa spacecraft two pioneers two voyagers sent 1970s tour outer regions solar system distances involved , travelers took anywhere 20 months 12 years reach destinations barring faster spacecraft , eventually become first human artifacts journey distant stars sun 's light becomes faint outer solar system , travelers use solar power instead operate electricity generated heat decay nasa also developed highly specialized spacecraft revisit neighbors mars venus middle late 1970s twin viking landers equipped serve weather stations biology laboratories two advanced orbiters descendants mariner craft carried viking landers earth studied martian features two drum shaped pioneer spacecraft visited venus 1978 pioneer venus orbiter equipped radar instrument allowed see planet 's dense cloud cover study surface features pioneer venus carried four probes dropped clouds probes main body contained scientific instruments radioed information planet 's atmosphere descent toward surface new generation automated spacecraft including magellan , galileo , ulysses , mars observer , comet rendezvous asteroid flyby \( craf \) cassini developed sent solar system make detailed examinations increase understanding neighborhood planet sun discussion objects solar system must start sun sun bodies , representing approximately 99 86 percent mass solar system planets , moons , asteroids , comets , dust gas add 0 14 percent 0 14 percent represents material left sun 's formation one hundred nine earths would required fit across sun 's disk , interior could hold 1 3 million earths star , sun generates energy process fusion temperature sun 's core 15 million degrees celsius \( 27 million degrees fahrenheit \) , pressure 340 billion times earth 's air pressure sea level sun 's surface temperature 5 , 500 degrees celsius \( 10 , 000 degrees fahrenheit \) seems almost chilly compared core temperature solar core , hydrogen fuse helium , producing energy sun also produces strong magnetic field streams charged particles , extending far beyond planets sun appears active 4 6 billion years enough fuel go another five billion years end life , sun start fuse helium heavier elements begin swell , ultimately growing large swallow earth billion years red giant , suddenly collapse white dwarf final end product star like may take trillion years cool completely many spacecraft explored sun 's environment , none gotten closer surface approximately two thirds distance earth sun pioneers 5 11 , pioneer venus orbiter , voyagers 1 2 spacecraft sampled solar environment ulysses spacecraft , launched october 6 , 1990 , joint solar mission nasa european space agency using jupiter 's gravity change trajectory , ulysses fly sun 's polar regions 1994 1995 perform wide range studies using nine onboard scientific instruments fortunate sun exactly way different almost way , life would almost certainly never developed earth mercury obtaining first close views mercury primary objective mariner 10 spacecraft , launched november 3 , 1973 , kennedy space center florida journey nearly five months , included flyby venus , spacecraft passed within 703 kilometers \( 437 miles \) solar system 's planet march 29 , 1974 mariner 10 , little known mercury even best views earth showed mercury indistinct object lacking surface detail planet close sun usually lost solar glare planet visible earth 's horizon sunset dawn , obscured haze dust atmosphere radar telescopes gave hint mercury 's surface conditions prior voyage mariner 10 photographs mariner 10 radioed back earth revealed ancient , heavily cratered surface , closely resembling moon pictures also showed huge cliffs planet apparently created mercury 's interior cooled , planet 's crust cliffs high 3 kilometers \( 2 miles \) long 500 kilometers \( 310 miles \) instruments mariner 10 discovered mercury weak magnetic field trace atmosphere density earth 's atmosphere composed chiefly argon , neon helium planet 's orbit takes closest sun , surface temperatures range 467 degrees celsius \( 872 degrees fahrenheit \) mercury 's side 183 degrees celsius \( 298 degrees fahrenheit \) dark side range surface temperature 650 degrees celsius \( 1 , 170 degrees fahrenheit \) largest single body solar system mercury literally freezes time days nights long mercury combination slow rotation relative stars \( 59 earth days \) rapid revolution around sun \( 88 earth days \) means one mercury solar day takes 176 earth days two mercury years time takes planet complete two orbits around sun ! mercury appears crust light rock like earth scientists believe mercury heavy iron rich core making slightly less half volume would make mercury 's core larger , , moon 's core planets initial mercury encounter , mariner 10 made two additional flybys september 21 , 1974 , march 16 , 1975 control gas used orient spacecraft exhausted mission concluded flyby took place local mercury time identical half planet illuminated result , still seen one half planet 's surface venus veiled dense cloud cover , venus nearest planetary neighbor first planet explored mariner 2 spacecraft , launched august 27 , 1962 , first dozen successful american soviet missions study mysterious planet spacecraft flew orbited venus , plunged atmosphere gently landed venus' surface , romantic myths speculations neighbor laid rest december 14 , 1962 , mariner 2 passed within 34 , 839 kilometers \( 21 , 648 miles \) venus became first spacecraft scan another planet onboard instruments measured venus 42 minutes mariner 5 , launched june 1967 , flew much closer planet passing within 4 , 094 kilometers \( 2 , 544 miles \) venus second american flyby , mariner 5 's instruments measured planet 's magnetic field , , radiation belts temperatures way mercury , mariner 10 flew venus transmitted ultraviolet pictures earth showing cloud circulation patterns venusian atmosphere spring summer 1978 , two spacecraft launched mysteries venus december 4 year , pioneer venus orbiter became first spacecraft placed orbit around planet five days later , five separate components making second spacecraft pioneer venus entered venusian atmosphere different locations planet four small , independent probes main body radioed atmospheric data back earth descent toward surface although designed examine atmosphere , one probes survived impact surface continued transmit data another hour venus resembles earth size , physical composition density closely known planet however , spacecraft discovered significant differences well example , venus' rotation \( west east \) \( backward \) compared east west spin earth planets approximately 96 5 percent venus' atmosphere \( 95 times dense earth 's \) carbon dioxide principal constituent earth 's atmosphere nitrogen venus' atmosphere acts like greenhouse , permitting solar radiation reach surface trapping heat would ordinarily radiated back space result , planet 's average surface temperature 482 degrees celsius \( 900 degrees fahrenheit \) , hot enough melt lead radio altimeter pioneer venus orbiter provided first means seeing planet 's dense cloud cover determining surface features almost entire planet nasa 's magellan spacecraft , launched may 5 , 1989 , orbit around venus since august 10 , 1990 spacecraft uses radar mapping techniques provide resolution images surface magellan revealed landscape dominated volcanic features , faults impact craters huge areas surface show evidence multiple periods lava flooding flows lying top previous ones elevated region named ishtar terra lava filled basin large united states one end plateau sits maxwell , mountain size mount everest scarring mountain 's 100 kilometer \( 62 mile \) wide , 2 5 kilometer \( 1 5 mile \) deep impact crater named \( almost features venus named women maxwell , alpha beta exceptions \) craters survive venus perhaps 400 million years water little wind erosion extensive fault line networks cover planet , probably result flexing produces plate earth venus surface temperature sufficient weaken rock , cracks everywhere , preventing formation major plates large earthquake faults like san andreas fault california venus' predominant weather pattern high altitude , high speed circulation clouds contain sulfuric acid speeds reaching high 360 kilometers \( 225 miles \) per hour , clouds circle planet four earth days circulation direction west east venus' slow rotation 243 earth days , whereas earth 's winds blow directions west east east west six alternating bands venus' atmosphere serves simplified laboratory study weather earth viewed space , world 's distinguishing characteristics blue waters , brown green land masses white clouds ocean air consisting 78 percent nitrogen , 21 percent oxygen 1 percent constituents planet solar system known harbor life , earth orbits sun average distance 150 million kilometers \( 93 million miles \) earth third planet sun fifth largest solar system , diameter hundred kilometers larger venus planet 's rapid spin molten nickel iron core give rise extensive magnetic field , , along atmosphere , shields us nearly harmful radiation coming sun stars earth 's atmosphere protects us well , burn strike surface active geological processes left evidence earth almost certainly received soon formed 4 6 billion years ago along newly formed planets , space debris early days solar system space , learned much home planet first american satellite explorer 1 launched cape canaveral florida january 31 , 1958 , discovered intense radiation zone , called van allen radiation belts , surrounding earth since , research satellites revealed planet 's magnetic field distorted tear drop shape solar wind stream charged particles continuously ejected sun 've learned magnetic field fade space definite boundaries know upper atmosphere , believed calm , activity swelling day contracting night affected changes solar activity , upper atmosphere contributes weather climate earth besides affecting earth 's weather , solar activity gives rise dramatic visual phenomenon atmosphere charged particles solar wind become trapped earth 's magnetic field , air molecules planet 's magnetic poles air molecules begin glow known northern southern lights satellites 35 , 789 kilometers \( 22 , 238 miles \) space play major role daily local weather electronic eyes warn us dangerous storms continuous global monitoring provides vast amount useful data contributes better understanding earth 's complex weather systems unique vantage points , satellites survey earth 's oceans , land use resources , monitor planet 's health eyes space saved countless lives , provided tremendous shown us may altering planet dangerous ways moon moon earth 's single natural satellite first human alien world made american astronauts dusty surface , companion preparation human apollo expeditions , nasa dispatched automated ranger , surveyor lunar orbiter spacecraft study moon 1964 1968 nasa 's apollo program left large legacy lunar materials data six two astronaut crews landed explored lunar surface 1969 1972 , carrying back collection rocks soil weighing total 382 kilograms \( 842 pounds \) consisting 2 , 000 separate samples material studies , scientists constructed history moon includes infancy rocks collected lunar date 4 0 4 3 billion years old first million years moon 's existence violent traces period remain molten outer layer gradually cooled different kinds rock , moon bombarded huge asteroids smaller objects asteroids large rhode island delaware , collisions moon created hundreds kilometers across catastrophic bombardment approximately four billion years ago , leaving lunar covered huge , overlapping craters deep layer shattered broken rock heat produced decay radioactive elements began melt interior moon depths 200 kilometers \( 125 miles \) surface , next 700 million years 3 8 3 1 billion years ago lava rose inside moon lava gradually spread surface , flooding large impact form dark areas galileo , astronomer italian renaissance , called maria , meaning seas far tell , significant volcanic activity moon three billion years since , lunar surface altered , atomic particles sun stars , rare impacts large meteorites spacecraft astronauts astronauts landed moon billion years ago , would seen landscape similar one today thousands years , left apollo crews remain sharp clear origin moon still mystery four theories attempt explanation moon formed near earth separate body torn earth formed somewhere else captured planet 's gravity , result collision earth asteroid size mars last theory good support far certain mars planets , mars long considered solar system 's prime candidate extraterrestrial life astronomers studying red planet telescopes saw appeared straight lines surface observations later determined optical illusions led popular notion intelligent beings constructed system planet 1938 , broadcast radio drama based science fiction classic war worlds h g wells , enough people believed tale invading cause near panic another reason scientists expect life mars apparent color changes planet 's surface phenomenon led speculation conditions might support bloom martian vegetation warmer months cause plant life become dormant colder periods far , six american missions mars carried four mariner spacecraft three flying planet one placed martian orbit surveyed planet extensively viking orbiters landers arrived mariner 4 , launched late 1964 , flew past mars july 14 , 1965 , coming within 9 , 846 kilometers \( 6 , 118 miles \) surface transmitting earth 22 close pictures planet , spacecraft found many craters naturally occurring channels evidence artificial flowing water mariners 6 7 followed flybys summer 1969 returned 201 pictures mariners 4 , 6 7 showed diversity surface conditions well thin , cold , dry atmosphere carbon dioxide may 30 , 1971 , mariner 9 orbiter launched mission make year long study martian surface spacecraft arrived five half months lift , find mars midst planet wide dust storm made surface photography impossible several weeks storm cleared , mariner 9 began returning first 7 , 329 pictures revealed previously unknown martian features , including evidence large amounts water flowed across surface , river valleys flood plains august september 1975 , viking 1 2 spacecraft consisting orbiter lander lifted kennedy space center mission designed answer several questions red planet , including , life \? nobody expected spacecraft spot martian cities , hoped biology experiments viking landers would least find evidence primitive life past present viking lander 1 became first spacecraft successfully touch another planet landed july 20 , 1976 , united states celebrating photos sent back planitia \( plains gold \) showed bleak , rusty red landscape images returned lander revealed rolling plain , rocks marked sand fine red dust martian soil gives sky salmon hue viking lander 2 touched utopia planitia september 3 , 1976 , viewed rolling landscape one seen predecessor one without visible results sent back laboratory viking lander inconclusive small samples red martian soil tested three different experiments designed detect biological processes test results seemed indicate biological activity , later analysis confirmed activity nature related planet 's soil chemistry life mars \? one knows sure , viking mission found evidence organic molecules exist viking landers became weather stations , recording wind velocity direction well atmospheric temperature pressure weather changes observed highest temperature recorded either craft 14 degrees celsius \( 7 degrees fahrenheit \) viking lander 1 site lowest temperature , 120 degrees celsius \( 184 degrees fahrenheit \) , recorded viking lander 2 site winter near hurricane wind speeds measured two martian weather stations global dust storms , atmosphere thin , wind force minimal viking lander 2 photographed light patches frost probably water ice second winter planet martian atmosphere , like venus , primarily carbon dioxide nitrogen oxygen present small percentages martian air contains 1 1 , 000 much water air , even small amount condense , forming clouds ride high atmosphere around slopes volcanoes local patches early morning fog form valleys evidence past martian atmosphere may allowed water flow planet physical features closely resembling , , islands suggest great rivers marked planet mars two moons , phobos deimos small shaped possess ancient , cratered surfaces possible moons originally asteroids close mars captured gravity viking orbiters landers exceeded large margins design lifetimes 120 90 days , respectively first fail viking orbiter 2 , stopped operating july 24 , 1978 , leak attitude control gas viking lander 2 operated april 12 , 1980 , shut battery degeneration viking orbiter 1 quit august 7 , 1980 , last attitude control gas used viking lander 1 ceased functioning november 13 , 1983 despite inconclusive results viking biology experiments , know mars planet except earth nasa 's mars observer spacecraft , launched september 1992 , expand knowledge martian environment lead human exploration red planet asteroids solar system large number rocky metallic objects orbit around sun small considered full fledged planets objects known asteroids minor planets , , found band belt orbits mars jupiter orbits cross earth 's path , evidence earth hit asteroids past one least eroded , best preserved examples meteor crater near , arizona asteroids material left formation solar system one theory suggests remains planet destroyed massive collision long ago likely , asteroids material never planet fact , estimated total mass asteroids gathered single object , object would 1 , 500 kilometers \( 932 miles \) across less half diameter moon thousands asteroids identified earth estimated 100 , 000 bright enough eventually photographed earth based telescopes much understanding asteroids comes examining pieces space debris fall surface earth asteroids collision course earth called strikes atmosphere high velocity , friction causes chunk space matter incinerate streak light known meteor burn completely , 's left strikes earth 's surface called meteorite one best places look meteorites ice cap meteorites examined , 92 8 percent composed \( stone \) , 5 7 percent composed iron nickel rest mixture three materials stony meteorites hardest identify since look much like terrestrial rocks since asteroids material early solar system , scientists interested composition spacecraft flown asteroid belt found belt really quite empty asteroids separated large distances current future missions fly selected asteroids closer examination galileo orbiter , launched nasa october 1989 , investigate main belt asteroids way jupiter comet rendezvous asteroid flyby \( craf \) cassini missions also study far flung objects scheduled launch latter part 1990s , craf cassini missions collaborative project nasa , european space agency federal space agencies germany italy , well united states air force department energy one day , space factories mine asteroids raw materials jupiter beyond mars asteroid belt , outer regions solar system , lie giant planets jupiter , saturn , uranus neptune 1972 , nasa dispatched first four spacecraft slated conduct initial surveys worlds gas moons ice rock jupiter first port call pioneer 10 , lifted kennedy space center march 1972 , first spacecraft penetrate asteroid belt travel outer regions solar system december 1973 , returned first close images jupiter , flying within 132 , 252 kilometers \( 82 , 178 miles \) planet 's cloud tops pioneer 11 followed year later voyagers 1 2 launched summer 1977 returned spectacular photographs jupiter family satellites flybys 1979 travelers found jupiter ball liquid hydrogen helium , topped colorful atmosphere composed mostly gaseous hydrogen helium ammonia ice crystals form white jovian clouds sulfur compounds \( perhaps phosphorus \) may produce brown orange hues characterize jupiter 's atmosphere likely methane , ammonia , water gases react form organic molecules regions planet 's cloud tops warmer hydrogen ocean lying jupiter 's atmospheric dynamics , however , organic compounds exist probably short lived great red spot observed centuries telescopes earth hurricane like storm jupiter 's atmosphere twice size planet high pressure region , great red spot spins direction opposite low pressure storms jupiter surrounded swirling currents rotate around spot sometimes consumed great red spot might million years old spacecraft detected lightning jupiter 's upper atmosphere observed auroral emissions similar earth 's northern lights jovian polar regions voyager 1 returned first images faint , narrow ring jupiter largest solar system 's planets , jupiter rotates pace every 9 hours 55 minutes 30 seconds massive planet takes almost 12 earth years complete journey around sun 16 known moons , jupiter something miniature solar system new mission jupiter galileo project way six year cruise takes galileo orbiter past venus , twice past earth moon past two asteroids , spacecraft drop atmospheric probe jupiter 's cloud layers relay data back earth galileo orbiter spend two years circling planet flying close jupiter 's large moons , exploring detail two pioneers two voyagers revealed galilean satellites , galileo aimed telescope jupiter spotted four points light orbiting planet first time , humans seen moons another world honor , four bodies would become known galilean satellites moons galileo might happily traded honor one look photographs returned voyager spacecraft flew past planet sized satellites one remarkable findings voyager mission presence active volcanoes galilean moon io volcanic never observed world earth voyager cameras identified least nine active volcanoes io , ejected material extending far 280 kilometers \( 175 miles \) moon 's surface io 's pizza colored terrain , marked orange yellow hues , probably result sulfur rich materials brought surface volcanic activity volcanic activity satellite result tidal flexing caused gravitational tug war io , jupiter three galilean moons europa , approximately size moon , brightest galilean satellite moon 's surface displays complex array streaks , indicating crust caught gravitational tug war like io , europa heated enough cause interior ice melt apparently producing liquid water ocean ocean covered ice crust formed water exposed cold space europa 's core made rock sank center like europa , two galilean moons ganymede callisto worlds ice rock ganymede largest satellite solar system larger planets mercury pluto satellite composed 50 percent water ice rest rock ganymede 's surface areas different brightness , indicating , past , material moon 's interior deposited various locations surface callisto , slightly smaller ganymede , lowest density galilean satellite , suggesting large amounts water part composition callisto heavily cratered object solar system activity history erased old craters except impacts detailed studies galilean satellites performed galileo orbiter saturn planet solar system like saturn ring system like jupiter , saturn composed mostly hydrogen contrast vivid colors wild found jovian clouds , saturn 's atmosphere subtle , hue , markings high altitude haze given saturn 's somewhat looking appearance , scientists surprised high velocity equatorial jet stream blows 1 , 770 kilometers \( 1 , 100 miles \) per hour three american spacecraft visited saturn pioneer 11 sped planet moon titan september 1979 , returning first close images voyager 1 followed november 1980 , sending back photographs revealed first time complexities saturn 's ring system moons voyager 2 flew planet moons august 1981 rings composed countless low density particles orbiting individually around saturn 's equator progressive distances cloud tops analysis spacecraft radio waves passing rings showed particles vary widely size , ranging dust house sized rings bright mostly ice frosted rock rings might resulted moon passing body close saturn unlucky object would torn apart great tidal forces surface interior object may fully formed begin influence saturn 's gravity third possibility object shattered collisions larger objects orbiting planet unable either form moon drift away , individual ring particles appear held place gravitational pull saturn satellites complex gravitational interactions form thousands make major rings radio emissions quite similar static heard car radio electrical storm detected voyager spacecraft emissions typical lightning believed coming saturn 's ring system rather atmosphere , lightning observed jupiter , voyagers saw version earth 's near saturn 's poles voyagers discovered new moons found several satellites share orbit learned moons shepherd ring particles , maintaining saturn 's rings gaps rings saturn 's 18th moon discovered 1990 images taken voyager 2 1981 voyager 1 determined titan nitrogen based atmosphere methane argon one like earth 's composition carbon dioxide atmospheres mars venus titan 's surface temperature 179 degrees celsius \( 290 degrees fahrenheit \) implies might water ice islands rising oceans methane liquid sludge unfortunately , voyager 's cameras could penetrate moon 's dense clouds continuing solar radiation may converting titan 's methane , acetylene combination nitrogen hydrogen cyanide latter compound building block amino acids conditions may similar atmospheric conditions earth three four billion years ago however , titan 's atmospheric temperature believed low permit progress beyond stage organic chemistry exploration saturn continue cassini mission cassini spacecraft orbit planet also deploy probe called huygens , dropped titan 's atmosphere fall surface cassini use probe well radar peer titan 's clouds spend years examining saturnian system uranus january 1986 , four half years visiting saturn , voyager 2 completed first close survey system brief flyby revealed information uranus icy moons gleaned ground observations since planet 's discovery two centuries ago english astronomer william herschel uranus , third largest planets , oddball solar system unlike planets \( exception pluto \) , giant lies tipped side north south poles alternately facing sun 84 year swing around solar system voyager 2 's flyby , south pole faced sun uranus might knocked earth sized object collided early life solar system voyager 2 found uranus' magnetic field follow usual north south axis found planets instead , field tilted 60 degrees offset planet 's center , phenomenon earth would like one magnetic pole new york city city , island java indonesia uranus' atmosphere consists mainly hydrogen , 12 percent helium small amounts ammonia , methane water vapor planet 's blue color occurs methane atmosphere colors wind speeds range 580 kilometers \( 360 miles \) per hour , temperatures near cloud tops average 221 degrees celsius \( 366 degrees fahrenheit \) uranus' south pole shrouded kind smog believed combination acetylene , sunlight generated chemicals surrounding planet 's atmosphere extending thousands kilometers space mysterious ultraviolet known approximately 8 , 000 kilometers \( 5 , 000 miles \) uranus' cloud tops , thought ocean water dissolved ammonia 10 , 000 kilometers \( 6 , 200 miles \) deep beneath ocean earth sized core heavier materials voyager 2 discovered 10 new moons , 16 169 kilometers \( 10 105 miles \) diameter , orbiting uranus five previously known miranda , ariel , , oberon range size 520 1 , 610 kilometers \( 323 1 , 000 miles \) across representing geological showcase , five moons half ice , half rock spheres cold dark show evidence past activity , including ice flows remarkable uranus' moons miranda surface features high cliffs well canyons , crater plains winding valleys sharp variations terrain suggest , moon formed , smashed apart collision another body event unusual solar system , contains many objects impact craters fragments large impacts extraordinary miranda apparently reformed material interior exposed surface uranus thought nine dark rings voyager 2 11 contrast saturn 's rings , composed bright particles , uranus' rings primarily made dark , boulder sized chunks neptune voyager 2 completed 12 year tour solar system investigation neptune planet 's moons august 25 , 1989 , spacecraft swept within 4 , 850 kilometers \( 3 , 010 miles \) neptune flew moon triton neptune encounter became clear planet 's atmosphere active uranus' voyager 2 observed great dark spot , circular storm size earth , neptune 's atmosphere resembling jupiter 's great red spot , storm spins counterclockwise moves almost 1 , 200 kilometers \( 745 miles \) per hour voyager 2 also noted smaller dark spot fast moving cloud scooter , well high altitude clouds main hydrogen helium cloud deck highest wind speeds planet observed , 2 , 400 kilometers \( 1 , 500 miles \) per hour like giant planets , neptune gaseous hydrogen helium upper layer liquid interior planet 's core contains higher percentage rock metal gas giants neptune 's distinctive blue appearance , like uranus' blue color , due atmospheric methane neptune 's magnetic field tilted relative planet 's spin axis centered core phenomenon similar uranus' magnetic field suggests fields two giants generated area cores , pressure great liquid hydrogen assumes electrical properties metal earth 's magnetic field , hand , produced spinning metallic core slightly tilted offset relative center voyager 2 also shed light mystery neptune 's rings observations earth indicated arcs material orbit around giant planet clear neptune could arcs could kept spreading even , rings voyager 2 detected arcs , , fact , part thin , complete rings number small moons could explain arcs , bodies spotted astronomers identified moons triton 1949 voyager 2 found six one new moons actually larger , since orbits close neptune , lost planet 's glare observers earth triton circles neptune orbit six days tidal forces triton causing spiral slowly towards planet 10 100 million years \( short time astronomical terms \) , moon close gravity tear apart , forming spectacular ring accompany planet 's modest current rings triton 's landscape strange unexpected io miranda moon rock counterparts saturn uranus triton 's mantle probably composed water ice , moon 's crust thin nitrogen methane moon shows two dramatically different types terrain called terrain ice cap dark streaks appear ice cap streaks like volcanic vents shoot nitrogen gas dark , fine particles heights 2 8 kilometers \( 1 5 miles \) triton 's thin atmosphere , 1 70 , thick earth 's , winds carry dark particles deposit streaks ice cap surface yet found solar system \( 235 degrees celsius , 391 degrees fahrenheit \) triton might like pluto object spacecraft far visited pluto pluto distant planets , yet eccentricity orbit periodically carries inside neptune 's orbit , since 1979 remain march 1999 pluto 's orbit also highly inclined tilted 17 degrees orbital plane planets discovered 1930 , pluto appears little celestial planet 's diameter calculated approximately 2 , 300 kilometers \( 1 , 430 miles \) , two thirds size moon ground based observations indicate pluto 's surface covered methane ice thin atmosphere may freeze fall surface planet moves away sun observations also show pluto 's spin axis tipped 122 degrees planet one known satellite , charon , discovered 1978 charon 's surface composition different pluto 's moon appears covered water ice rather methane ice orbit gravitationally locked pluto , bodies always keep hemisphere facing pluto 's charon 's rotational period charon 's period revolution 6 4 earth days although spacecraft ever visited pluto , nasa currently exploring possibility mission comets members solar system occasionally pay visit inner planets asteroids rocky metallic formation solar system , comets icy debris dim beginning survive far sun comet nuclei reside oort cloud , loose objects halo beyond planets reaching perhaps halfway nearest star comet nuclei orbit frozen abyss gravitationally new orbits carry close sun nucleus falls inside orbits outer planets , volatile elements made gradually warm time nucleus enters region inner planets , volatile elements boiling nucleus irregular miles across , made principally water ice methane ammonia materials similar moons giant planets materials boil nucleus , form coma cloud like head measure tens thousands kilometers across coma grows comet gets closer sun stream charged particles coming sun pushes cloud , blowing back like flag wind giving rise comet 's tails gases ions blown directly back nucleus , dust particles pushed slowly nucleus continues orbit , dust particles left behind curved arc gas dust tails point away sun effect , comet tails sun tails reach 150 million kilometers \( 93 million miles \) length , total amount material contained dramatic display would fit ordinary comets latin , meaning long haired essentially dramatic light shows comets pass solar system , others orbits gravitationally modified close encounter one giant outer planets latter visitors enter closed elliptical orbits repeatedly return inner solar system halley 's comet famous example relatively short period comet , returning average every 76 years orbiting beyond neptune within venus' orbit confirmed sightings comet go back 240 b c regular visitor solar system named sir edmond halley , plotted comet 's orbit predicted return , based earlier sightings newtonian laws motion name became part astronomical lore , , comet returned schedule unfortunately , sir edmond live see comet prominent sky passes comparatively close earth unfortunately , recent appearance , halley 's comet passed closer 62 4 million kilometers \( 38 8 million miles \) world comet visible naked eye , especially viewers southern hemisphere , spectacular comets bright , rare occasions , visible daytime historically , comet sightings interpreted bad rendered sky comet rendezvous asteroid flyby \( craf \) spacecraft become first traveler fly close comet nucleus remain proximity approach sun craf observe nucleus becomes active growing sunlight begins lighter elements boil form coma tails several spacecraft flown comets high speed first nasa 's international cometary explorer 1985 armada five spacecraft \( two japanese , two soviet giotto spacecraft european space agency \) flew halley 's comet 1986 conclusion despite efforts peer across vast distances space atmosphere , scientists past one body could study closely earth since 1959 , spaceflight solar system lifted veil neighbors space learned solar system members anyone previous thousands years automated spacecraft traveled moon planets beyond world except pluto observed moons large small planets , flown comets sampled solar environment astronomy books include detailed pictures bodies largest telescopes generations lucky alive see strange beautiful places objects knowledge gained solar system redefined traditional earth sciences like geology meteorology spawned entirely new discipline called comparative studying geology planets , moons , asteroids comets , comparing differences similarities , learning origin history bodies solar system whole also gaining insight earth 's complex weather systems seeing weather shaped worlds investigating sun 's activity influence throughout solar system , better understand climatic conditions processes earth continue learn benefit automated spacecraft explore neighborhood space one current mission mapping venus others flying worlds reach sun jupiter complex trajectory adjustments future missions planned mars , saturn , comet asteroid belt also look forward time humans set foot alien world although astronauts back moon since december 1972 , plans formulated return lunar landscape human exploration mars even establishment martian outposts one day , taking holiday may mean spending week lunar base martian colony ! end
prb access digex net \( pat \) subject space manuevering tug \( hst servicing mission \) organization express access online communications usa lines 29 nntp posting host access digex net given described hst seemed smt , given mass discovery mission tight enough spacewalking carefully constrained edo pallets , spare suits , extra mmu 's \? quick test goldins philosophjy faster cheaper , better build real fast space tug , handle boost hst using clean cryo fuels , get ready hst mission nasa could build mercury 13 months , able make smt 9 much would need \? guidance package use voyager spare thruster gear , use , lox lh bus use grapple fixture use stripped canadarm comms package spare x band omni gear pat
subject galileo update 04 29 93 simon otago ac nz \( arch deviant \) organization university otago , dunedin , new zealand nntp posting host otago ac nz lines 11 article kelvin jpl nasa gov , baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov \( ron baalke \) writes 2 april 23 , cruise science memory readout \( mro \) performed magnetometer \( mag \) instrument analysis indicates data received properly correct assuming science instruments buffer acquired data onboard ram , downloaded upon receipt mro command \? simon brady n't need lot fancy hardware university otago virtual reality walkman dunedin , new zealand attitude
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject hst servicing mission scheduled 11 days organization u toronto zoology lines 18 article 1993apr29 den mmc com starfighter den mmc com \( michael \) writes expect retrieving hst would involve considerably order return cradle cargo bay deployed items \( antennas , especially , solar \) probably retractable fully position , even hand , thing designed retrievable , pinch indeed , dictated rather odd design solar arrays , since retractable well extendable , may thus indirectly contributed array problems retrieval problems exactly stated would costly , would involve extensive \( worry someone finding reason launch \) , would unnecessarily expose telescope lot mechanical stresses possibilities contamination svr4 resembles high speed collision henry spencer u toronto zoology svr3 sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
jgreen trumpet calpoly edu \( james thomas green \) subject teflon development organization california polytechnic state university , san luis obispo lines 24 hausner qucis queensu ca \( hausner \) pontificated sorry split hairs , read making atomic bomb \( \) teflon developed world war 2 needed tubing uranium passed gradually enriched corrosive , inert yet flexible material needed seals split split hair , believe teflon \( \) discovered accident someone n't remember found thought liquid \( gas \? \) turned solid happend fit bill use i'm crossposting sci materials perhaps someone know might elaborate \( james green \) \( jgreen oboe calpoly edu \) know believe understand think said sure realize said meant
nsmca aurora alaska edu subject space manuevering tug \( hst servicing mission \) lines 39 nntp posting host acad3 alaska edu organization university alaska fairbanks article access digex net , prb access digex net \( pat \) writes given described hst seemed smt , given mass discovery mission tight enough spacewalking carefully constrained edo pallets , spare suits , extra mmu 's \? quick test goldins philosophjy faster cheaper , better build real fast space tug , handle boost hst using clean cryo fuels , get ready hst mission nasa could build mercury 13 months , able make smt 9 much would need \? guidance package use voyager spare thruster gear , use , lox lh bus use grapple fixture use stripped canadarm comms package spare x band omni gear pat build space dock either inflated place crew work item without wear much items bulky suit idea come michael adams , nsmca acad3 alaska edu i'm high , jacked
nsmca aurora alaska edu subject space dock lines 22 nntp posting host acad3 alaska edu organization university alaska fairbanks idea repair satellites warning getting creative build inflatable space dock basically deploy one side space dock \( using shaped structure , saw beyond 2000 \) , side next satellite move rest dock around satellite seal inflate dock gas \( oxygen , non , non damaging satellite abel maintain heat \) , space dock \( astronaut working satellite able wear normal bulky space suit , much striped \) know might take slot work \? \? \? plain wierd , ideas need thought , tomorrow , imagination present michael adams , nsmca acad3 alaska edu i'm high , jacked
nsmca aurora alaska edu subject private support exploration \( russian america \) article aurora 1993apr30 1 organization university alaska fairbanks lines 8 nntp posting host acad3 alaska edu commericial support exploration examples also much exploration utilization alaska \( russian america , also included parts washington state , oregon , n california \) private funds \( yes royal governmental funds times \) michael adams , nsmca acad3 alaska edu i'm high , jacked
rw astro princeton edu \( ralph j \) subject gamma ray bursters originator news nimaster nntp posting host astro princeton edu organization princeton university lines 51 feel compelled complain statement recent observations rule merging neutron stars sources gamma ray bursts utterly false , even though popular enough make batse press releases idea behind statement follows smack two neutron stars together , neutron star black hole , lot energy released , enough gamma ray burst cosmological distance , reasoning continues , energy released lot matter , radiation becomes expect see roughly blackbody spectrum observed spectra strongly non thermal , model must wrong often , fault lies imagination person trying prove model wrong rather model may initial energy release seen gamma ray burst , energy matter created may spew relativistic flow surrounding medium , strong flux non thermal gamma rays results , may carry substantial fraction initial total energy idea series papers martin , peter \( sorry missing \) co workers certainly complete model , may well best one around \( summing proposed distance scales \) alternative proposal creates initial fireball , way , called scenario stan , massive star end life collapses black hole stellar core rotating , part matter temporarily halted supported force , form dense neutron torus onto black hole beast may spew jet along rotation axis , constitutes relativistic flow rate events may much higher neutron star , flux may strongly , net rate bursts observed earth stays two scenarios , energy released per event lot less failed supernova scenario another note believe distance scale must ultimately resolved via classical astronomical method finding counterparts bursts wavelengths , finding definitive signature known class objects distribution positions theorists historically finding distance object proving one possible way object work , therefore must ralph
jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu \( josh hopkins \) subject long term human missions organization university illinois urbana lines 46 jgladu bcm tmc edu \( grungy \) writes ward pashosh wisdom weizmann ac il \( ward paul \) wrote 1 calculators 2 teflon \( eggs n't stick pan \) 3 pacemakers \( kept grandfather alive 1976 1988 \) n't think touting contributions good idea world war ii produced many many beneficial spinoffs eg radar , jet , rocket technology n't think anyone would argue world war ii , , good thing want people back space program must good thing disagree tout , although agree space program inherently good thing people today care cost \? 's \? could care less whether something simply worthwhile society become increasingly geared toward short term \( could read ! \) could n't care less next week , much less next century want something show expenditure want think extent case level assume general public ca n't handle truth , based assumption , go arguments someone , understand good argument , comes along asks n't develop spinoffs \? ca n't get spinoffs program , like military \? good arguments space development without relying side effects i'm ignoring value spinoffs simply think general public deserves credit give btw n't forget velcro 're going use spinoffs better make darn sure right teflon around since nasa understand , velcro french doctor went walking woods took trouble wonder stick clothes certainly velcro available hiking equipment early mid sixties would need see good evidence believe either would today without nasa josh hopkins jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu find way make one attributed hannibal
nsmca aurora alaska edu subject satellite around pluto mission \? lines 14 nntp posting host acad3 alaska edu organization university alaska fairbanks wierd , warned plan put satellite around planet solar system keep watch \? help better ask questions spout opinion mission \( unmanned \) pluto stay orbit record things around near pluto know strange idea , \? \? could scanning pluto , also solar system , objects near , well seti looking galaxy without much solar system worry michael adams , nsmca acad3 alaska edu i'm high , jacked
prb access digex net \( pat \) subject hst servicing mission scheduled 11 days organization express access online communications usa lines 17 nntp posting host access digex net keywords hst article rpi edu strider clotho acm rpi edu \( greg moore \) writes pointed , develop thruster also , much lighter , still lift mass thruster orbit , thruster lifts weight higher orbit take room payload bay yes , improvement boost orbit hst significant , means carry edo packs enough consumables shuttle mission go long enough also fix array tilt motors , god knows else going wear hst next 9 months pat
prb access digex net \( pat \) subject gamma ray bursters energetic could \? organization express access online communications usa lines 21 nntp posting host access digex net article gap caltech edu palmer cco caltech edu \( david palmer \) writes prb access digex com \( pat \) writes article 1993apr26 200406 1 vax1 mankato msus edu belgarath vax1 mankato msus edu writes energetic close coronal model , found around 10 43 erg sec lastly , cosmological model l 10 53 's 'd call moderately energetic , 'd say suggestions could put much energy one second \? jeremy big capacitor \) real big capacitor 's suggested \( specifically , lightning strikes clouds interstellar medium \) big lightning rod , would need protection \? would need jupiter ground plane pat
roeber vxcrna cern ch \( frederick roeber \) subject internet resources reply roeber cern ch organization cern european organization nuclear research distribution sci lines 39 article 1 cs cmu edu , stk1203 vax003 stockton edu writes taking course entitled exploring science using internet final project , find compendium internet resources dealing science related topic chose astronomy anyway , wondering anyone knew interesting resources internet provide information astronomy , space , nasa , anything like know world wide web \? global hypertext \( well , hypermedia \) network running internet one nice things understands incorporates virtually systems used , like wais , gopher , ftp , archie , etc usually quite easy add existing resources web 'd like explore , 'd suggest getting xmosaic program , written ncsa 's x windows web browser , pretty slick understand cope text gif , jpeg , mpeg , audio , etc , including text mode browser people stuck text terminal , i'm mosaic page world wide web virtual library subject catalogue \( available documents menu mosaic , browser via url info cern ch hypertext overview \) subject space science currently points page construction , nasa jpl ftp archive 've take page , fact replacement sorts information pointers \( mostly gleaned sci space faq \) soon overworked subject catalogue maintainer switches space science pointer , 'll visible 'll post short note happens frederick g roeber cern european center nuclear research e mail roeber cern ch roeber caltech edu work 41 22 767 31 80 r mail cern ppe , 1211 geneva 23 , switzerland home 33 50 20 82 99 sorry , baby , ca n't take pizza joint tonight , 've got go back lab split atom ayn rand , \?
c23st kocrsv01 delcoelect com \( spiros triantafyllopoulos \) subject internet resources organization delco electronics corp distribution sci lines 15 article 1 cs cmu edu stk1203 vax003 stockton edu writes taking course entitled exploring science using internet final project , find compendium internet resources dealing science related topic chose astronomy anyway , wondering anyone knew interesting resources internet provide information astronomy , space , nasa , anything like robert mcelwaine authoritative source scientific data internet reached alt fan mc spiros spiros triantafyllopoulos c23st kocrsv01 delcoelect com software technology , delco electronics \( 317 \) 451 0815 gm hughes electronics , kokomo , 46904 post , therefore armm
space subject statement nasa administrator daniel g reply space organization alcatel bell telephone lines 20 nntp posting host 138 203 8 26 man clark nasa administrator god save nasa course shuttles record ! one shuttle furthermore , likely one shuttle hermes effectively cancelled officials spend time explaining european asian partners expected believe change minds major international projects everytime new us administration takes office \( considering major impacts european asian \( japanese \) industry \) also appreciated affects american industry course talking space freedom dennis , email space alcatel bell telephone , 33 , phone \( 32 \) 3 829 hoboken , belgium
loss fs7 ece cmu edu \( doug loss \) subject philosophy quest boldly \? organization electrical computer engineering , carnegie mellon lines 42 article 1993apr29 hemlock cray com bobo thejester cray com \( bob kierski \) writes number philosophical questions would like ask 1 \) encounter life form space exploration , determine capture , imprison , \? analog sf magazine article similar subject quite years ago question , alien spacecraft landed washington , c , proper organization deal state department \( alien ambassadors \) , defense department \( alien invaders \) , immigration service \( illegal aliens \) , department interior \( new non human species \) , etc much question perception aliens , anything intrinsic nature bibliography article cited philosophical paper \( name author sadly forget believe author italian \) constitutes legal moral person , e , entitled rights normally accorded person paper quite interesting , recall 2 \) encounter civilization suffering , expend resources earth help \? think 'd careful answer yes human track record helping poor cultures \( mean enough \? \) terrible usual result destruction radical culture may always wrong , 's way bet 3 \) deseases currently deadly undetectable , done ensure new deadly deseases n't brought back , deseases n't destroy life elsewhere \? day , \( \) bobo doug loss loss husky bloomu edu
hathaway stsci edu subject hst servicing mission scheduled 11 days lines 31 organization space telescope science institute distribution na article 64i access digex net , prb access digex net \( pat \) writes article rpi edu strider clotho acm rpi edu \( greg moore \) writes pointed , develop thruster also , much lighter , still lift mass thruster orbit , thruster lifts weight higher orbit take room payload bay yes , improvement boost orbit hst significant , understand saying improved , significant , carrying equipment servicing mission \? also , implied posters , need boost orbit mission anyway \? maybe something , could please clarify us net \? means carry edo packs enough consumables shuttle mission go long enough also fix array tilt motors , god knows else going wear 've heard , motors fine one two sets electronics control motors needs fix motors electronics separate pieces hardware expect corrected i'm wrong hst next 9 months pat
atae spva ph ic ac uk \( ata etemadi \) subject internet resources nntp posting host prawn sp ph organization imperial college science , technology , medicine , london , england distribution sci lines 31 article 1 cs cmu edu , stk1203 vax003 stockton edu writes taking course entitled exploring science using internet final project , find compendium internet resources dealing science related topic chose astronomy anyway , wondering anyone knew interesting resources internet provide information astronomy , space , nasa , anything like thanks ! keith stk1203 vax003 stockton edu p box stockton state college pomona , new jersey try keyword search gopher using veronica accessing world wide web server also finger csd4 csd uwm edu list internet resources includes 2 3 sites space specific information sure ron baalke told available jpl etc best regards ata \( \) mail dr ata etemadi , laboratory , space atmospheric physics group , imperial college science , technology , medicine , prince road , london sw7 , england internet arpanet earn bitnet atae spva ph ic ac uk ata c ucl ac uk span spva atae atae uucp usenet atae spva ph ic nsfnet relay ac uk
shag aero org \( rob unverzagt \) subject satellite around pluto mission \? organization organization \? must kidding lines 32 nntp posting host aerospace aero org article 1993apr30 1 aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes wierd , warned \? oh , weird ok , i'm warned ! plan put satellite around planet solar system keep watch \? help better ask questions spout opinion keep watch \? mission \( unmanned \) pluto stay orbit record things around near pluto know strange idea , \? \? oh , several tens \( hundreds \) millions dollars would cost record things 'd prefer manned mission , anyway could scanning pluto , also solar system , objects near , well seti looking galaxy without much solar system worry 've already got pretty good platform scan solar system , well seti looking galaxy without much solar system worry care guess \? shag rob unverzagt shag aerospace aero org tuesday green day unverzagt aero org
tff zeno ds boeing com \( terry f \) subject true globe , makes \? reply tff zeno ds boeing com organization boeing defense space group lines 26 article zoo toronto edu , henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) writes article bill xpresso uucp bill xpresso uucp \( bill vance \) writes known quite earth actually pear shaped globular spherical anyone make globe accurate actual shape , landmass configuration long lat lines etc \? n't think 're going able see differences sphere unless greatly exaggerated even equatorial bulge 1 part 300 'd never notice error globe deviations spherical shape much smaller svr4 resembles high speed collision henry spencer u toronto zoology svr3 sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry remember prof talked scaling cue ball earth size significantly less spherical earth ! terry f boeing defense space group email tff plato ds boeing com po box , mail stop 6j ea phone 206 394 3115 fax 206 394 4300 seattle , wa 98124 terry f boeing defense space group email tff plato ds boeing com po box , mail stop 6j ea phone 206 394 3115 fax 206 394 4300 seattle , wa 98124
kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov subject u government technolgy investment organization nasa jsc gm2 , space shuttle program office x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 44 people criticize big government projects rarely seem consistent view role government science technology basically , u government gotten role supporting research private industry finds expensive long term \( historically , role u gov't forced upon socialism countries order u industries compete government subsidized foreign competitors , u gov't taken role big ticket long lead r \) republican , abhor necessity government involve technology way believe market forces drive technology , world would better place whole world would implement concept simultaneously , countries would subsidized r , others would u must subsidize everybody else \( sounds lot like farm subsidies arguments behind gatt negotiations , n't \? \) role government subsidies antithetical cost effectiveness general idea spend money new technology , thereby maintain promote technological culture , despite forces business world \( like dreaded quarterly earnings report \) ability u industry invest new technology since goal spend money , makes little sense try save money course , could always spend money wisely , everybody disagrees wisdom 's interesting note best tools cost control available industry today derived government projects charts , cp , modern scheduling software comes dod projects contractors construction industry taken tools core businesses every large construction project uses tools ken jenks , nasa jsc gm2 , space shuttle program office kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov \( 713 \) 483 4368 scientist discover new star , cannot make one would ask engineer gordon l , american engineer , 1969
prb access digex net \( pat \) subject hst servicing mission scheduled 11 days organization express access online communications usa lines 14 nntp posting host access digex net article zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) writes , thing designed retrievable , pinch indeed , dictated rather odd design solar arrays , since retractable well extendable , may thus indirectly contributed array problems design solar arrays detachable shuttle going retunr hst , bother arrays fit quick release one space walk , use second canadarm remove arrays pat
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject planets habitable organization u toronto zoology lines 18 article hsc usc edu khayash hsc usc edu \( ken hayashida \) writes human tolerances , best example human endurance terms altitude \( e low atmospheric pressure lower oxygen partial pressure \) opinion scaling mt everest without oxygen assistance quite feat physiological endurance indeed 's extreme limit humanly possible possible mount everest fairly low latitude slight equatorial bulge atmosphere beyond induced earth 's rotation thanks overall circulation pattern atmosphere \( air cools poles descends , flowing back equator warmed rises \) , helps enough make everest without oxygen feasible feasible , mind guys reported indications oxygen starvation , probably incurred permanent brain damage svr4 resembles high speed collision henry spencer u toronto zoology svr3 sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
prb access digex net \( pat \) subject hst servicing mission scheduled 11 days distribution na organization express access online communications usa lines 75 nntp posting host access digex net article 1993apr30 1 stsci edu hathaway stsci edu writes article 64i access digex net , prb access digex net \( pat \) writes article rpi edu strider clotho acm rpi edu \( greg moore \) writes pointed , develop thruster also , much lighter , still lift mass thruster orbit , thruster lifts weight higher orbit take room payload bay yes , improvement boost orbit hst significant , understand saying improved , significant , carrying equipment servicing mission \? also , implied posters , need boost orbit mission anyway \? maybe something , could please clarify us net \? right hst mission listed 11 days listed 9 days kicked number spacewalks 5 , simulations indicated able 4 space walking , going boost hst 's orbit think right 's sitting 180 miles , would like 220 n't know exact orbit numbers know hst first flown , placed highest possible shuttle orbit shuttle cary thing called edo pallet , extended duration orbiter pallet 's mostly lox lh fuel cells rcs gear , plus o2 canisters life support maybe nitrogen limit space walking function suit supplies \( mass \) orbiter duration order perform boost hst , oms engines fired long period shuttle heavy thing hst n't light either amount oms fuel needed fly substantial small booster carried used boost hst 's weigh significantly less oms fuel required boost hst shuttle , given orbital change understand , mass margins hst missions tight enough ca n't even carry extra suits mmu 's used small tug , would bet , wild guess , savings margin would allow carrying edo pallet , extra suits , consumables , parts flaky fgs sensor , parts solar electronics , still enough double magnum hst could even get placed sort medium orbit reason want high orbit , less antenna pointing , longer drag life means carry edo packs enough consumables shuttle mission go long enough also fix array tilt motors , god knows else going wear 've heard , motors fine one two sets electronics control motors needs fix motors electronics separate pieces hardware expect corrected i'm wrong whatever , problem tilt array big constraint hst ops pat
prb access digex net \( pat \) subject gamma ray bursters organization express access online communications usa lines 17 nntp posting host access digex net article judy uh edu wingo cspara decnet fedex msfc nasa gov writes article access digex net , prb access digex com \( pat \) writes big enough problem , create new area physics \? little speculative thinking folks pat well pat agree like first idea probably gamma ray signature warp transitions interstellar spacecraft ! \) dennis agree lot , 's n't post agree something disagree , tends lot noticeable \) pat
sdd larc nasa gov \( steve derry \) subject hst antenna ok \? keywords hst hga reply derry larc nasa gov organization nasa langley research center , hampton , va usa lines 15 nntp posting host larc nasa gov x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 n't seen mention , goes hubble telescope first deployed , one high gain antennas able moved across full range motion suspected cable something operational procedures modified work around problem , later problems hga problem plan look affected hga hst repair mission , determine cause limited range motion \? affected hga still limited , capable full range motion \? steve derry derry larc nasa gov
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject rocket types organization u toronto zoology lines 14 article wraith cs uow edu au wraith cs uow edu au \( glen justin balmer \) writes said 60 's developed rocket used ions nuclear particles government however , n't give 1billion developement 'd guess garbled report effort develop solid core fission rocket \( mundane type nuclear rocket \) advanced propulsion project done large enough scale likely attract news attention could number things description given awfully vague 'd put small bet svr4 resembles high speed collision henry spencer u toronto zoology svr3 sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject space dock organization u toronto zoology lines 19 article 1993apr30 1 aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes build inflatable space dock 're large scale satellite servicing , able pressurized hangar makes considerable sense question whether anyone going large scale satellite servicing near future , point justifying development thing inflate dock gas \( oxygen , non , non damaging satellite abel maintain heat \) 'd almost certainly use air given something , safety considerations strongly suggest making breathable \( even servicing crew using oxygen masks normal breathing , avoid needing ventilation system , 's nice hangar atmosphere breathable pinch makes mask functioning much less critical \) svr4 resembles high speed collision henry spencer u toronto zoology svr3 sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject satellite around pluto mission \? organization u toronto zoology lines 35 article 1993apr30 1 aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes plan put satellite around planet solar system keep watch \? would point long term monitoring things like particles fields , mention atmospheric phenomena however , particular plan establish sort monitoring network precise , particular plan , period large part problem context , 's surprising useful missions like get short budget time closest approach sort long term planetary monitoring mission occasional chance piggyback something like top mission like galileo cassini mission \( unmanned \) pluto stay orbit record things around near pluto unlikely much happening pluto would worth monitoring , difficult mission fly without new propulsion technology \( something planetary community firmly resisted guinea pigs \) combined need arrive pluto within reasonable amount time , kill nearly cruise velocity settle orbit , beyond reasonably done current \( , 1950s vintage \) propulsion could scanning pluto , also solar system , objects near , well seti looking galaxy without much solar system worry done well earth things ca n't , done better voyager like spacecraft constrained need enter orbit around planet svr4 resembles high speed collision henry spencer u toronto zoology svr3 sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
sdd larc nasa gov \( steve derry \) subject hst servicing mission scheduled 11 days organization nasa langley research center , hampton , va usa lines 30 reply derry larc nasa gov nntp posting host larc nasa gov x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 pat \( prb access digex net \) wrote limit space walking function suit supplies \( mass \) orbiter duration order perform boost hst , oms engines fired long period shuttle heavy thing hst n't light either amount oms fuel needed fly substantial small booster carried used boost hst 's weigh significantly less oms fuel required boost hst shuttle , given orbital change understand , mass margins hst missions tight enough ca n't even carry extra suits mmu 's pat n't seen specifics hst repair mission , ca n't see mass margins tight carrying \? replacement components \( ii , costar , gyros , solar panels , probably others \) , sorts tools , eva equipment , much oms fuel consumables lighter original hst deployment mission , achieved highest altitude shuttle mission date hst lower orbit seems like limiting factors would crew fatigue mission complexity steve derry derry larc nasa gov
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject hst servicing mission scheduled 11 days organization u toronto zoology lines 13 article 1993apr30 1 stsci edu hathaway stsci edu writes also , implied posters , need boost orbit mission anyway \? n't need , 's desirable hst , like satellites low earth orbit , gradually losing altitude due air drag deployed highest orbit shuttle could reach , reason needs occasional eventually \( propulsion system \) excellent opportunity , given may another visit several years svr4 resembles high speed collision henry spencer u toronto zoology svr3 sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
willner head cfa harvard edu \( steve willner \) subject temperature dark sky organization smithsonian astrophysical observatory , cambridge , , usa lines 71 article 1993apr28 princeton edu , richmond spiff princeton edu \( stupendous man \) writes 's case , let point interstellar dust molecules provide many instances things , well , far blackbodies many different observations , including iras cobe , determined interstellar dust grain temperatures range 40k 150k interstellar grains close blackbodies large grains sizes order 0 1 micron absorb visible light fair efficiency however , temperatures 100 k , 90 thermal emission beyond 22 microns , radiating efficiency poor \( small antenna cannot easily radiate long wavelengths \) thus grains must heat order radiate energy absorbed moreover , iras observations maximum wavelength 100 microns grains colder 30 k radiate primarily longer wavelengths , iras would relatively insensitive extreme limit , grains cold 5 k almost undetectable conceivable observation worse still , iras color temperatures heavily contaminated population small grains grains perhaps 50 atoms , hit single photon heat temperatures several hundred 1000 k course cool quickly stay cold , radiating characteristic temperature several hundred k even small population grains dramatically raise observed average temperature model local infrared emission consistent cobe data three components represent scattered radiation zodiacal dust \( color temperature 5500 k \) , thermal emission zodiacal dust \( tc 280 k \) , thermal emission galactic dust \( tc 25 k \) ecliptic poles , dilution factors respectively 1 9e 13 , 4e 8 , 2e 5 first two roughly doubled ecliptic plane find thermal equilibrium temperature , add dilution factor times fourth power temperature components , take fourth root table , starlight comes allen 's number stellar emission whole sky equivalent 460 zero mag stars b v color 0 75 doubt careful work could much better \( person suggested starlight dilution factor e 4 must remembering wrong would cooked case event , energy density starlight comes microwave background , believe correct \) dilution temp dt 4 microwave background 1 2 7 53 galactic dust 2e 5 25 8 zodiacal dust \( emission \) 6e 8 280 369 zodiacal dust \( scattering \) 3e 13 5500 275 starlight 1e 13 5500 92 797 fourth root 797 5 3 k outside solar system , result would 3 5 k find results surprising , especially importance zodiacal dust , n't see serious mistakes steve willner phone 617 495 bitnet willner cfa cambridge , 02138 usa internet willner cfa harvard edu member , league programming freedom contact lpf uunet uu net
rbunge access digex net \( robert bunge \) subject vandalizing sky organization express access online communications service , greenbelt , maryland usa lines 27 nntp posting host access digex net article news cso uiuc edu jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu \( josh hopkins \) writes i'm wondering vandalize proper word use situation dictionary defines vandalism willful malicious public private property , especially anything beautiful would agree sky beautiful , public private property 's public belongs everybody 's vandalism many people power companies maliciously waste light sell city state unshielded light wastes 30 50 percent light , make money never mind money wasted never mind 's money wasted never mind sky ruined bob bunge greed great gordon
turner bigbang astro indiana edu \( george wm turner \) subject moon image weather sat image lines 14 nntp posting host bigbang astro indiana edu reply turner bigbang astro indiana edu \( george wm turner \) organization astronomy indiana university home image moon caught weather satellite images earth appears ir visual images earth gif images loaded vmd cso uiuc edu named gif cv043015 gif ir visual images respectively pretty cool pictures ir 's saturated visual image details moon viewable moon images george wm turner turner bigbang astro indiana edu
fennell well sf ca us \( michael daniel fennell \) subject sarsat tracking payload deployed tether summary sarsat beacons used purposes \? keywords tether , sarsat , navigation nntp posting host well sf ca us organization whole earth 'lectronic link , sausalito , ca lines 38 interested constructing reentry vehicle deployed tether attached orbiting platform follow succesful deployment 20 kilometer tether march 29 flight seds \( small expendable deployment system \) , released payload earth 's atmosphere burned west coast mexico time want make payload recovered want build shelf technology quickly inexpensively possible want able track payload deployed parachute idea put kind radio beacon used \( search rescue satellites \) would turn opening parachute aid tracking beacons known marine industry \( emergency position indicating radio beacon \) rugged \( survive ship wreck ! \) cheap several questions 1 world authority regulating use sarsat beacons multiple , e military civilian \? 2 regulations regarding use sarsat signals used one kind situations long lead time warning relevant authorities , strictly reserved life threatening \? 3 coverage \? leo coverage fixed position earth , geosynchronous orbit \? 4 industry organization governing use manufacture transponders \? please post replies send e mail fennell well sf ca us much assistance provide mike fennell
zellner stsci edu subject hst servicing mission lines 10 organization space telescope science institute distribution na article access digex net , prb access digex net \( pat \) writes space walking , going boost hst 's orbit think right 's sitting 180 miles , would like 220 idea come \? 's news ben
stgprao st unocal com \( richard ottolini \) subject moon image weather sat image organization unocal corporation lines 14 article usenet ucs indiana edu turner bigbang astro indiana edu \( george wm turner \) writes image moon caught weather satellite images earth appears ir visual images earth gif images loaded vmd cso uiuc edu named gif cv043015 gif ir visual images respectively pretty cool pictures ir 's saturated visual image details moon viewable near , see sun ocean also solar see shadow sun move across clouds
davem ee ubc ca \( dave michelson \) subject space station redesign , jsc alternative 4 organization university bc , electrical engineering lines 36 article cbl umd edu mike starburst umd edu \( michael f santangelo \) writes dbm0000 tm0006 lerc nasa gov \( david b mckissock \) writes text options b deleted option c single core launch station jsc lead option basically , take 23 ft diameter cylinder 's 92 ft long , slap 3 space shuttle main engines backside , put nose cone top , attached regular shuttle external tank regular set solid rocket motors , launch key features complete end end ground integration checkout 4 tangentially mounted fixed solar panels body mounted radiators \( adds protection orbital debris \) 2 centerline docking ports \( one end \) 7 berthing ports single pressurized volume , approximately 26 , 000 cubic feet \( twice volume skylab \) 7 floors , center passageway floors 10 kw housekeeping power somehow strange attraction idea \( living modular home maybe altered mind \) thing scares part simply strapping 3 ssme 's launching vision something going terribly wrong launch resulting complete loss new modular space station \( peice would case staged orbit construction \) certainly like option c 's much like original phase b studies early 1970 's good stuff ! dave michelson davem ee ubc ca university british columbia
mccall mksol dseg ti com \( fred j mccall 575 3539 \) subject abyss breathing fluids organization texas instruments inc distribution usa lines 18 1993apr29 cc ic ac uk atae spva ph ic ac uk \( ata etemadi \) writes forever war , one favorite books , passage devoted breathing fluids idea protect people high accelerations required interstellar travel passengers dry cleaning fluid saturated oxygen plenty imaginative ideas book would certainly recommend \( hugo nebula awards \) definitely read conjunction heinlein 's trooper two books radically different viewpoints basic premises 've even heard tell english classes built around insisting perfect safety people n't balls live real world mary shafer , nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com n't speak others n't speak
mccall mksol dseg ti com \( fred j mccall 575 3539 \) subject vandalizing sky organization texas instruments inc lines 18 c5y4t7 9w3 news cso uiuc edu gfk39017 uxa cso uiuc edu \( george f krumins \) writes typical rights minority extinguished wants majority , matter ridiculous wants might right \? right \? n't mean something like typical wants minority wants majority , matter ridiculous minority wants might benefits majority wants might \? sole connection project spent lot time classes university colorado insisting perfect safety people n't balls live real world mary shafer , nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com n't speak others n't speak
mccall mksol dseg ti com \( fred j mccall 575 3539 \) subject vandalizing sky organization texas instruments inc lines 65 c63na8 4c1 news cso uiuc edu gfk39017 uxa cso uiuc edu \( george f krumins \) writes suggesting minority professional amateur astronomers right dark , uncluttered night sky whence right stem , overrides 'rights' rest us \? let give example watch tv , commercials pay programming accept part watching n't like , turn want view night sky , floating billboard , ca n't turn 's reasoning limits billboards scenic areas want view television station , watch commercials ca n't turn still viewing television station words , n't like see , n't look 'right' think force people conform idea aesthetic behaviour 's next , laws regulating people must dress look appeal fashion sense , since 'right' aesthetic view \? pat writes george 's called democracy majority rules sorry n't like , suggest modify constitution include constitutional right dark skies theory government majority rules , except nature fundamental civil rights say reasonably depth perusal american history show many wasps continued practices prejudice , discrimination , violence others different races , religions , beliefs , despite law topic discussion \? pat says really annoyed , get legislation create dark sky zone , light emissions protected zone kind like national radio quiet zone know \? near teh radio telescope observatory west virginia , 90 \? \? \? \? \? \? mile zone theoretically prevent running light ac motors , like air conditioners practice , use mostly control large radio users say i'm objecting floating billboard , presumably , would move around sky , one , legislating wish people bit common courtesy , would consider greed money impacts ethereal aesthetic values make us human includes need wild unspoiled things , including night sky oh , see n't want legislation might impinge want everyone else planet want insisting perfect safety people n't balls live real world mary shafer , nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com n't speak others n't speak
mccall mksol dseg ti com \( fred j mccall 575 3539 \) subject long term human missions organization texas instruments inc lines 28 jgladu 128 249 27 63 jgladu bcm tmc edu \( grungy \) writes article 1993apr29 weizmann ac il , ward pashosh wisdom weizmann ac il \( ward paul \) wrote want people back space program must good thing think tell things using spinoffs space program way prove worth vote pay taxes continued existence space program relies upon money agree ward problem approach add reasonably claim , add 's spent space , come back something like , spent x billion \? would n't better spend money direct research forget space stuff \? could got stuff lot cheaper way space wasteful inefficient cancel funding spend studying mating rituals new guinea something insisting perfect safety people n't balls live real world mary shafer , nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com n't speak others n't speak
mccall mksol dseg ti com \( fred j mccall 575 3539 \) subject satellite around pluto mission \? organization texas instruments inc lines 24 1993apr30 1 aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes wierd , warned plan put satellite around planet solar system keep watch \? help better ask questions spout opinion mission \( unmanned \) pluto stay orbit record things around near pluto know strange idea , \? \? could scanning pluto , also solar system , objects near , well seti looking galaxy without much solar system worry anything like reasonable time would require propulsion capability manage would boost pluto slow back could something like orbit , think would take ridiculous amounts time \( rubber bible home \) insisting perfect safety people n't balls live real world mary shafer , nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com n't speak others n't speak
david anderman ofa123 fidonet org subject nasa contributions \? x sender newtout 0 08 feb 23 1993 lines 6 teflon \? contribution space program \? since french using teflon household items early 1950 's , unlikely invented nasa pacemakers calculators , anecdotally connected nasa maximus 2 01wb
wales larrison ofa123 fidonet org subject boeing tsto \( words chairman boeing \) x sender newtout 0 08 feb 23 1993 lines 83 games max u washington edu writes response boeing ssto far single stage orbit technology , think better answer two stage approach , talking customers far commercialization , long ways anybody know anything \? really news \? threaten work dc \? \? boeing looking several tsto vehicles carried extensive conceptual studies advanced launch systems time good reference might comparison propulsion options advanced earth orbit \( \) applications \( iaf 92 \) v l e fink boeing paper describes propane fueled tsto launch system claimed achieve aircraft like operational without problems associated liquid hydrogen fuel basically , 's high speed airplane launching hermes type design \( concept also called beta \) laid paper launch least 10 , 000 pounds polar orbit , 20 , 000 pounds space station orbit including crew eight persons life support system design reliability 9995 beta 360 foot long first stage powered two large ramjets 12 high speed civil transport \( \) 108 foot long reusable orbiter mounted belly first stage aircraft , also could accommodate longer heavy payload expendable second stage launch orbital vehicle , first stage takes like normal accelerates mach 3 point , modified burn jp 7 , would shut ramjets , would take mach 5 5 orbiter elv would swing , ignite proceed orbit vehicles would land like aircraft conclusion respective missions estimated total weight combined configuration takeoff 1 5 lbs , roughly fully loaded 225 orbiter stages weighs 400 , including 335 lox propane power two 250 vacuum thrust rocket engines propellants would stored 91 degrees kelvin , propane spherical tank mounted forward 15 25 foot cargo bay two seat orbiter crew station lox would stored aft fink claim key design 's success structurally efficient compact allowed high density fuel paper compares tsto design ssto design conclude ssto slightly lower recurring cost , tsto easier , cheaper , less risky develop , simpler build , greater safety mission n't carry hard handle bulky hydrogen fuel conjunction major use airplane type engines fuel , well inherent self ferry capability , probably system likely provide close airline like operations possible practical configuration , single stage rocket concept shown viable really news \? threaten work dc \? others boeing working tsto designs time expect , similar concept \( perhaps ssto proposed sdio ssto first phase \) examined basis bid first phase spacelifter threaten dc \? \? \? possibly set going studies trying straighten government 's future space transportation strategy mdc boeing \( well firms \) providing data joint study team back dc various factions options attention including shuttle upgrades , shuttle replacement \( called 4 2 3 architecture \) , spacelifter , elv upgrades , various advanced vehicles \( , beta , dc \? \? , nasp , , several types , etc \) nasa dod dot trying put together coherent strategy future us gov't space transportation systems , trying juggle near term launch needs \( like dod nasa \) medium term needs \( including commercial considerations \) , investment risk going leap frog new technologies like sdio ssto nasp beta 's heck problem worst part problem n't n't promising ideas concepts dozens balance cost risk versus real needs near term draft report mid june , final report coming end fiscal year wales larrison space technology investor maximus 2 01wb
hathaway stsci edu subject hst servicing mission scheduled 11 days lines 66 organization space telescope science institute distribution na article access digex net , prb access digex net \( pat \) writes article 1993apr30 1 stsci edu hathaway stsci edu writes article 64i access digex net , prb access digex net \( pat \) writes article rpi edu strider clotho acm rpi edu \( greg moore \) writes space walking , going boost hst 's orbit think right 's sitting 180 miles , would like 220 n't know exact orbit numbers ben says boost idea news us know something n't \? please supply source would nice schedulers observations know thing going altitude numbers also way best source minimum st altitude pmdb 573 kilometers maximum st altitude pmdb 603 kilometers delta st altitude pmdb 3 kilometers \( pmdb proposal management data base used schedule observations \) order perform boost hst , oms engines fired long period shuttle heavy thing hst n't light either amount oms fuel needed fly substantial small booster carried used boost hst 's weigh significantly less oms fuel required boost hst shuttle , given orbital change could supply calculations \? might check recent postings explained 'a small suggested exist , comparing mass something n't exist mass oms fuel seems impossible contamination threat also remains hst could even get placed sort medium orbit reason want high orbit , less antenna pointing , longer drag life longer drag life understand , could explain antenna pointing \? whatever , problem tilt array big constraint hst ops tell although arrays \( \) moved perfectly well utilizing second electronics box getting working much desireable reclaim redundancy pat n't mean jump helpful suggestions always welcome know ideas better , want true situation described clearly correctly , lest get confused regards , wm hathaway
hathaway stsci edu subject hst servicing mission scheduled 11 days lines 33 organization space telescope science institute distribution na article rave larc nasa gov , sdd larc nasa gov \( steve derry \) writes pat \( prb access digex net \) wrote limit space walking function suit supplies \( mass \) orbiter duration n't seen specifics hst repair mission , ca n't see mass margins tight carrying \? replacement components \( ii , costar , gyros , solar panels , probably others \) , sorts tools , eva equipment , much oms fuel consumables lighter original hst deployment mission , achieved highest altitude shuttle mission date hst lower orbit seems like limiting factors would crew fatigue mission complexity steve derry derry larc nasa gov one thing recall putting satellite high possible one thing coming back altitude , matching position orbit subsequent mission another thing plane orbit launch ahead behind target require fuel adjust considered original deployment agree though demands crew complexity stupendous one admire much trying wm hathaway baltimore md
wpi wpi edu \( william f brown \) subject space offs organization worcester polytechnic institute lines 13 distribution world nntp posting host wpi wpi edu wanted point , teflon n't space program wwii nuclear weapons development program pipes system uranium lined uranium chemical turned enrichment massively corrosive even stainless hence need inert line pipes teflon molecular sockets bound already , 2 sense worth bill
shag aero org \( rob unverzagt \) subject moon image weather sat image organization organization \? must kidding lines 26 nntp posting host aerospace aero org article 1993apr30 unocal com stgprao st unocal com \( richard ottolini \) writes article usenet ucs indiana edu turner bigbang astro indiana edu \( george wm turner \) writes image moon caught weather satellite images earth appears ir visual images earth gif images loaded vmd cso uiuc edu named gif cv043015 gif ir visual images respectively pretty cool pictures ir 's saturated visual image details moon viewable near , see sun ocean also solar see shadow sun move across clouds speaking , paper years ago weather sat imaging lunar eclipse images uploaded anywhere \? could dig reference 's interest shag rob unverzagt shag aerospace aero org tuesday green day unverzagt aero org
neff physics uiowa edu \( john neff \) subject space offs nntp posting host pluto physics uiowa edu organization university iowa lines 23 article bigboote wpi edu wpi wpi edu \( william f brown \) writes wpi wpi edu \( william f brown \) subject space offs date 30 apr 1993 19 27 24 gmt wanted point , teflon n't space program wwii nuclear weapons development program pipes system uranium lined uranium chemical turned enrichment massively corrosive even stainless hence need inert line pipes teflon molecular sockets bound already , 2 sense worth bill invented 1958 wilson american biomedical engineer bill authorizing nasa signed october 1958 clear nasa nothing invention
jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu \( josh hopkins \) subject space manuevering tug \( hst servicing mission \) organization university illinois urbana lines 37 prb access digex net \( pat \) writes given described hst seemed smt , given mass discovery mission tight enough spacewalking carefully constrained edo pallets , spare suits , extra mmu 's someone actually verified mass predominant constraint mission \? seem assuming without giving supporting evidence \? quick test goldins philosophjy faster cheaper , better build real fast space tug , handle boost hst using clean cryo fuels , get ready hst mission pat , would slower , expensive worse slower shuttle mission scheduled go december 's less eight months away way could build new hardware , retrain eva 's time expensive proposal still requires shuttle everything going fire oms addition , 've added significant extra cost new piece complex hardware according gao report , two currently planned missions could use vehicle hst axaf since axaf since scaled back hst rely shuttle , n't seem need vehicle josh hopkins jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu find way make one attributed hannibal
hathaway stsci edu subject vandalizing sky lines 46 organization space telescope science institute distribution na article 1993apr30 mksol dseg ti com , mccall mksol dseg ti com \( fred j mccall 575 3539 \) writes c63na8 4c1 news cso uiuc edu gfk39017 uxa cso uiuc edu \( george f krumins \) writes suggesting minority professional amateur astronomers right dark , uncluttered night sky whence right stem , overrides 'rights' rest us \? let get right sorry , try let get straight well maybe poor choice words someone might think i'm pushing gay agenda let try understand phrasing extreme , minority one , right beautiful world , hand right make ugly one presume speak rest cannot complain curious say i'm objecting floating billboard , presumably , would move around sky , one , legislating wish people bit common courtesy , would consider greed money impacts ethereal aesthetic values make us human includes need wild unspoiled things , including night sky oh , see n't want legislation might impinge want everyone else planet want want everyone wish \( insist putting something impact everyone selfish reasons \) without legislation \? one else even object \? somehow think whole shoving contest gotten way track i'm ready let thread die quick merciful death insisting perfect safety people n't balls live real world mary shafer , nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com n't speak others n't speak wm hathaway baltimore md
cohen ssdgwy mdc com \( andy cohen \) subject single launch space station organization mda w lines 14 distribution sci nntp posting host q5022531 mdc com article 1 cs cmu edu , mcimail com \( karl \) wrote andy cohen cohen ssdgwy mdc com writes single launch core station concept shuttle external tank solid rocket boosters would used launch station orbit shuttle main engines would mounted tail station module launch jettisoned et separation jettison \? hold shuttle bring use spares \? good question asked however , since option expensive freedom derivative , issue likely moot
dong oakhill sps mot com \( gibson \) subject long term human missions nntp posting host lexus reply dong oakhill sps mot com organization motorola semiconductor products sector lines 21 article 128 249 27 63 , jgladu bcm tmc edu \( grungy \) writes ward pashosh wisdom weizmann ac il \( ward paul \) wrote 1 calculators 2 teflon \( eggs n't stick pan \) 3 pacemakers \( kept grandfather alive 1976 1988 \) think tell things using spinoffs space program way prove worth vote pay taxes continued existence space program relies upon money 02 btw n't forget velcro least honest velcro \( tm \) dates 40 's doubts everything listed developed space age , n't mean space spin btw n't forget tang \) dong
cohen ssdgwy mdc com \( andy cohen \) subject space station redesign , jsc alternative 4 organization mda w lines 42 distribution world nntp posting host q5022531 mdc com article 1993apr27 ee ubc ca , davem ee ubc ca \( dave michelson \) wrote article cbl umd edu mike starburst umd edu \( michael f santangelo \) writes dbm0000 tm0006 lerc nasa gov \( david b mckissock \) writes text options b deleted option c single core launch station jsc lead option basically , take 23 ft diameter cylinder 's 92 ft long , slap 3 space shuttle main engines backside , put nose cone top , attached regular shuttle external tank regular set solid rocket motors , launch key features complete end end ground integration checkout 4 tangentially mounted fixed solar panels body mounted radiators \( adds protection orbital debris \) 2 centerline docking ports \( one end \) 7 berthing ports single pressurized volume , approximately 26 , 000 cubic feet \( twice volume skylab \) 7 floors , center passageway floors 10 kw housekeeping power somehow strange attraction idea \( living modular home maybe altered mind \) thing scares part simply strapping 3 ssme 's launching vision something going terribly wrong launch resulting complete loss new modular space station \( peice would case staged orbit construction \) certainly like option c 's much like original phase b studies early 1970 's good stuff ! actually like stuff phase mol phase b ended power tower approach 's also expensive terms upfront development costs get redistribution costs shuttle flights contractors build
jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu \( josh hopkins \) subject vandalizing sky organization university illinois urbana lines 40 rbunge access digex net \( robert bunge \) writes article news cso uiuc edu jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu \( josh hopkins \) writes i'm wondering vandalize proper word use situation dictionary defines vandalism willful malicious public private property , especially anything beautiful would agree sky beautiful , public private property 's public belongs everybody , sky , time , belong anyone ownership necessary definition someone authority decide action good bad neither brick wall , ca n't unilaterally declare name right , n't authority declare wrong owner may find artistic may call police \( applies argument bright satellites street lights \) 's vandalism many people power companies maliciously waste light maliciously implies evil intent lighting companies n't going way spoil sky n't care sell city state unshielded light wastes 30 50 percent light , make money never mind money wasted responsibility customer choose efficient hardware 's city buy , 's lighting company sell write letter city hall please note i'm defending light pollution focus thread space based light sources josh hopkins jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu find way make one attributed hannibal
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject hst servicing mission scheduled 11 days organization u toronto zoology lines 16 article access digex net prb access digex net \( pat \) writes , thing designed retrievable , pinch indeed , dictated rather odd design solar arrays , since retractable well extendable design solar arrays detachable shuttle going retunr hst , bother arrays detached emergency expensive hardware thrown away casually \( bearing mind nobody knew design defective \) deployment crew found nasty flaw lid failing open , example would bit embarrassing throw solar arrays away get thing back payload bay svr4 resembles high speed collision henry spencer u toronto zoology svr3 sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov \( ron baalke \) subject mars observer update 04 30 93 organization jet propulsion laboratory lines 44 distribution world nntp posting host kelvin jpl nasa gov keywords mars observer , jpl news software vax vms vnews 1 41 forwarded mars observer project mars observer status report april 30 , 1993 11 30 pdt dss 65 \( madrid 34 meter antenna \) acquire expected mars observer spacecraft signal scheduled beginning track yesterday morning \( 4 29 \) approximately 6 00 indications spacecraft entered fault protection mode sometime time receipt normal telemetry end previous station pass \( dss 15 goldstone 34 meter antenna \) approximately 8 00 pm evening entry contingency mode verified signal telemetry indicated spacecraft sun subsystem engineers reported systems performing nominally , fault protection telemetry modes memory readouts command system audit queue \( attitude control subsystem \) performed readouts verified contingency mode entry occurred shortly 1 30 yesterday , 4 29 93 preliminary indications sun ephemeris check failure triggered fault protection however , flight team determining precise cause next days last evening , spacecraft commanded back reference stable mode flight team planning command spacecraft back array normal spin state today magnetometer calibration activities completed prior contingency mode entry mag calibration data recorded digital tape recorders 2 3 playback 2 3 , scheduled completed yesterday , postponed contingency mode entry halted flight sequence c9 execution flight team developing strategy restart c9 complete data playback present planning perform soon wednesday , late friday next week \( 5 5 5 7 \) , dependent contingency mode recovery activity dtr playback performed via high gain antenna 42 , 667 bits per second upon verification successful dtr , downlink maintained 4k e rate ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab \) 525 3684 telos aweto new zealand pasadena , ca 91109 part caterpillar part vegetable
pyron skndiv dseg ti com \( dillon pyron \) subject planets habitable lines 32 nntp posting host skndiv dseg ti com reply pyron skndiv dseg ti com organization ti dseg vax support article pd zoo toronto edu , henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) writes article hsc usc edu khayash hsc usc edu \( ken hayashida \) writes human tolerances , best example human endurance terms altitude \( e low atmospheric pressure lower oxygen partial pressure \) opinion scaling mt everest without oxygen assistance quite feat physiological endurance indeed 's extreme limit humanly possible possible mount everest fairly low latitude slight equatorial bulge atmosphere beyond induced earth 's rotation thanks overall circulation pattern atmosphere \( air cools poles descends , flowing back equator warmed rises \) , helps enough make everest without oxygen feasible feasible , mind guys reported indications oxygen starvation , probably incurred permanent brain damage regard 8000 death zone even 100 oxygen , slowly dying \( everest \) , spend short period time descending 've 8000 descending little feels like walking jungle , air thick everest winter without oxygen , support party \( alpine style \) ultimate challenge \( solo \? \) dillon pyron opinions expressed ti dseg lewisville vax support sender unless otherwise stated \( 214 \) 462 3556 \( i'm \) \( 214 \) 492 4656 \( i'm home \) texans vote robin hood need pyron skndiv dseg ti com solutions , gestures padi dm 54909
baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov \( ron baalke \) subject satellite around pluto mission \? organization jet propulsion laboratory lines 30 distribution world nntp posting host kelvin jpl nasa gov news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article 1993apr30 1 aurora alaska edu , nsmca aurora alaska edu writes plan put satellite around planet solar system keep watch \? help better ask questions spout opinion 've progressing towards goal 30 years precede orbiting mission flyby missions course , gets harder work way farther away earth 're starting work outer planets galileo orbit jupiter , cassini around saturn mission \( unmanned \) pluto stay orbit record things around near pluto well first things first 'll flyby mission first since much easier faster fast pluto flyby mission approved 'll launch pluto mission end decade pluto orbiter however requires larger spacecraft longer cruise period orbit insertion requires fuel carried along restricts trajectory slower approach velocity pluto 'd imagine though would neptune orbiting mission pluto orbiting mission , unless pluto flyby turns something really interesting ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab \) 525 3684 telos aweto new zealand pasadena , ca 91109 part caterpillar part vegetable
palmer cco caltech edu \( david palmer \) subject hst servicing mission scheduled 11 days organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 30 nntp posting host alumni caltech edu prb access digex net \( pat \) writes article zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) writes , thing designed retrievable , pinch indeed , dictated rather odd design solar arrays , since retractable well extendable , may thus indirectly contributed array problems design solar arrays detachable shuttle going retunr hst , bother arrays fit quick release one space walk , use second canadarm remove arrays may want put hubble back payload bay reboost , n't want clip panels time gamma ray observatory , one design requirements stored energy \( springs , explosive , gas shocks , etc \) used deployment partially everything could back put back payload bay , partially safety considerations \( 've heard wings cruise missile would cut half standing opened \) back shuttle would going every day cost orbit 3 95 per pound \) , everybody designed things easy servicing david palmer palmer alumni caltech edu palmer tgrs gsfc nasa gov
bobo thejester cray com \( bob kierski \) subject philosophy quest boldly \? originator bobo thejester cray com lines 47 nntp posting host thejester organization cray research , inc article fs7 ece cmu edu , loss fs7 ece cmu edu \( doug loss \) writes analog sf magazine article similar subject quite years ago question , alien spacecraft landed washington , c , proper organization deal state department \( alien ambassadors \) , defense department \( alien invaders \) , immigration service \( illegal aliens \) , department interior \( new non human species \) , etc much question perception aliens , anything intrinsic nature bibliography article cited philosophical paper \( name author sadly forget believe author italian \) constitutes legal moral person , e , entitled rights normally accorded person paper quite interesting , recall whole different situation aliens able get prior us able get , one might conclude would advanced therefore however get somewhere life , chances wont able communicate clue weather think 'd careful answer yes human track record helping poor cultures \( mean enough \? \) terrible usual result destruction radical culture may always wrong , 's way bet 's good point , n't thought way question however along lines every year us spends millions tax dollars giving tax breaks individuals companies feed poor foreign countries thousands people sleep streets night would give another planet n't resolved issues \? comment brings another good question years decided certain cultures need improvements native americans good example prior attempt , native american culture little crime , , poverty europeans came along encounter life elsewhere , tell live houses , farm land go church sunday \? day , \( \) bobo
prb access digex net \( pat \) subject hst servicing mission scheduled 11 days organization express access online communications usa lines 95 distribution na nntp posting host access digex net article 1993apr30 1 stsci edu hathaway stsci edu writes space walking , going boost hst 's orbit think right 's sitting 180 miles , would like 220 n't know exact orbit numbers ben says boost idea news us know something n't \? please supply source would nice schedulers observations know thing going altitude numbers also way best source minimum st altitude pmdb 573 kilometers maximum st altitude pmdb 603 kilometers delta st altitude pmdb 3 kilometers \( pmdb proposal management data base used schedule observations \) sure numbers far better mine said , n't exact numbers order perform boost hst , oms engines fired long period shuttle heavy thing hst n't light either amount oms fuel needed fly substantial small booster carried used boost hst 's weigh significantly less oms fuel required boost hst shuttle , given orbital change could supply calculations \? might check recent postings explained 'a small suggested exist , comparing mass something n't exist mass oms fuel seems impossible contamination threat also remains different would contamination threat small manuevering tug shuttle 's oms engines \? \? \? \? \? \? know small manuevering tug exists , maybe one could soup bus 1 anyone de specs hte bus 1 \? would able provide enough control force balance hst , still rocket thrust hurl decent high orbit \? hst could even get placed sort medium orbit reason want high orbit , less antenna pointing , longer drag life longer drag life understand , could explain antenna pointing \? sorry , pointing whatever , problem tilt array big constraint hst ops tell although arrays \( \) moved perfectly well utilizing second electronics box getting working much desireable reclaim redundancy plus , second box gets , could ville real fast n't mean jump helpful suggestions always welcome know ideas better , want true situation described clearly correctly , lest get confused regards , wm hathaway problem one seems exact numbers mission planned originally 3 spacewalks , 3 astronauts , enormous concern mass margins flight planned 5 eva 's , 11 day mission 2 reserve eva 's emergency eva obviously coming somewhere guess oms burn fuel , boost margin figured , goldin wants really , prove faster , cheaper better , whiz kids slap together expendable space manuevering tug , use boost better using discovery tow truck pat
higgins fnalf fnal gov \( bill higgins beam jockey \) subject revival san marco \? \( commercial space news 22 \) organization fermi national accelerator laboratory lines 31 nntp posting host fnalf fnal gov article ofa123 fidonet org , wales larrison ofa123 fidonet org writes commercial space news space technology investor number 22 might point key judging feasibility commercial launch site include identified key customer provide core usage sufficient recover setup costs \? market advantage using site \? existing infrastructure used modified site \? financing found low enough cost support investment \? commercial launch site ventures including , poker flat , cape york , white sands , alabama shore platform , hawaii , vandenberg also judged criteria opinion , ventures flying hope speculation , sound financial grounds reminds fuzzy brain recalls somebody thinking san marco launch platform coast , copernicus satellite launched around 1972 true , imagining \? possibly 's connected one italian programs revive scout new version old platform must getting pretty rusty , ai n't lot infrastructure go bill higgins , beam jockey 'll see fermi national accelerator laboratory white sands june bitnet higgins fnal bitnet bring view graphs , internet higgins fnal fnal gov 'll bring span hepnet 43011 higgins col pete worden dc x
tkelso afit af mil \( ts kelso \) subject two line orbital element set space shuttle keywords space shuttle , orbital elements , keplerian nntp posting host scgraph afit af mil organization air force institute technology lines 18 current orbital elements norad two line element sets carried celestial bbs , \( 513 \) 427 0674 , updated daily \( possible \) documentation tracking software also available system service satellite user community , current elements current shuttle mission provided celestial bbs may accessed 24 hours day 300 , 1200 , 2400 , 4800 , 9600 bps using 8 data bits , 1 stop bit , parity element sets \( also updated daily \) , shuttle elements , documentation software also available via anonymous ftp archive afit af mil \( 129 92 1 66 \) directory pub space sts 55 1 93 27 00000 0 3 0 129 2 28 241 284 109 3644 15 580 dr ts kelso assistant professor space operations tkelso afit af mil air force institute technology
bobc sed stel com \( bob combs \) subject gamma ray bursters organization sed , stanford telecom , reston , va lines 28 picture universe floating like log river log river , occasionally strikes rocks , bank , bottom , logs occurs , kinetic energy translated heat , log degrades , gets , energy occur distribution damage log depends shape log however , small virus head center log , shock waves would appear uniformly random direction theory grb evidence universe universes ! ! makes much sense grb coming oort cloud ! log theory universes ca n't ruled ! course , i'm layman physics world physicists , tell ! ! ! ! bob combs astronautical engineer , stanford telecom
khayash hsc usc edu \( ken hayashida \) subject long term space voyanges effect newsgroup \? organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 40 nntp posting host hsc usc edu force ssd lmsc lockheed com writes response original post first need literature search lot information maybe pick specific area long term habitation could useful , especially make available net look methods analyzing technologies detailed literature search would interest space advocates clearly important existing space programs essence , would dividing space life science issues various technical problems could solved various technologies database acceptable solutions various problems could form basis detailed discussions involving people , isunet , source ! unless unbelievable interest net , think develop detailed data base literature search first accomplish go real analysis data base could useful future engineers 's response ken , think \? tim well , agree hope others chime suggestions specific technologies could applied towards maintenance earth like atmosphere long duration spacecraft tim et al think try looking atmosphere first seems single fundamental issue keeping anyone alive 're taught supporting patient look maintaining , keeping trauma training \( keeping emergency medicine professor happy \) , suggest look issues surrounding atmospheric circuit tim \? ken
netcom com \( william e \) subject moon image weather sat image organization netcom online communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 6 brighten dark part cv043015 gif viewer see two objects near upper left part moon one actually weather satellite moon bill
pgf srl03 cacs usl edu \( phil g fraering \) subject gamma ray bursters energetic could \? organization univ southwestern louisiana lines 31 prb access digex net \( pat \) writes article gap caltech edu palmer cco caltech edu \( david palmer \) writes prb access digex com \( pat \) writes article 1993apr26 200406 1 vax1 mankato msus edu belgarath vax1 mankato msus edu writes energetic close coronal model , found around 10 43 erg sec lastly , cosmological model l 10 53 's 'd call moderately energetic , 'd say suggestions could put much energy one second \? jeremy big capacitor \) real big capacitor 's suggested \( specifically , lightning strikes clouds interstellar medium \) big lightning rod , would need protection \? would need jupiter ground plane pat sounds like 'd want star ground plane phil fraering seems like every day find sorts stuff pgf srl02 cacs usl edu like ancient mayans televison repo man
jgreen trumpet calpoly edu \( james thomas green \) subject internet resources article zeus distribution sci organization california polytechnic state university , san luis obispo lines 16 stk1203 vax003 stockton edu pontificated taking course entitled exploring science using internet final project , find compendium internet resources dealing science related topic chose astronomy anyway , wondering anyone knew interesting resources internet provide information astronomy , space , nasa , anything like one sci space faq postings deal 's archived somewhere perhaps someone post \( don' remember \) \( james green \) \( jgreen oboe calpoly edu \) n't ! nobody saw ! ca n't prove anything ! bart simpson
jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu \( josh hopkins \) subject revival san marco \? \( commercial space news 22 \) organization university illinois urbana lines 32 higgins fnalf fnal gov \( bill higgins beam jockey \) writes article ofa123 fidonet org , wales larrison ofa123 fidonet org writes commercial space news space technology investor number 22 commercial launch site ventures including , poker flat , cape york , white sands , alabama shore platform , hawaii , vandenberg also judged criteria opinion , ventures flying hope speculation , sound financial grounds reminds fuzzy brain recalls somebody thinking san marco launch platform coast , copernicus satellite launched around 1972 true , imagining \? possibly 's connected one italian programs revive scout new version old platform must getting pretty rusty , ai n't lot infrastructure go information shows last san marco launch 1988 seem total seven seem recall someone , either university rome \( \? \) includes money annual budget platforms \( actually two \) italians spending money develop advanced scout however , recent events italian space program , italian government overall make skeptical get ground near future josh hopkins jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu find way make one attributed hannibal
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject philosophy quest boldly \? organization u toronto zoology lines 25 article 1993apr30 hemlock cray com bobo thejester cray com \( bob kierski \) writes years decided certain cultures need improvements native americans good example prior attempt , native american culture little crime , , poverty , shall say , overly broad statement particular , referring native american culture existed 1400 , one existed 1800 \? \( simplify things assuming 're talking eastern us rather whole continent \) given radically different cultures , one referring \? encounter life elsewhere , tell live houses , farm land go church sunday \? note pre native americans , east mississippi , things \( well , maybe sunday , organized religions , mention cities governments \) judging native americans tribal culture existed 1800 , might want read account de expedition find pre native american culture , least civilized parts continent , like svr4 resembles high speed collision henry spencer u toronto zoology svr3 sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
18084tm msu edu \( tom \) subject transistor tube x added forwarded space digest organization via international space university original sender isu vacation venari cs cmu edu distribution sci lines 29 also , ask electric guitar enthusiast type amp prefer , 'll tell tube type , since tubes lower distortion noise transistors 'course , electric guitar types say tubes sound better , dude \) course , turn , gain , add analog delay line box 'd think would n't notice distortion oh forgot phase shifters kind absurd , n't \? players even want distortion , especially hendrix fans \) lot afford amp , like playing music without distortion hard core fans want particular types distortion , e , make , amps also , transistors advantage waste heat energy use , mainly heaters cathodes tubes ah , compare mechanical systems \) n't see thing waste heat , n't seen one mechanical tv 's , 's 's guess \) tommy mac tom mcwilliams 517 355 2178 wk communicated communists , 18084tm ibm cl msu edu 336 9591 hm pacified pacifists
stk1203 vax003 stockton edu subject big thanks x added forwarded space digest organization via international space university original sender isu vacation venari cs cmu edu distribution sci lines 21 'd like thank everyone anyone sent information help project 'll send report requested copy ! keith stk1203 vax003 stockton edu stockton state college pomona , nj
18084tm msu edu \( tom \) subject vandalizing sky x added forwarded space digest organization via international space university original sender isu vacation venari cs cmu edu distribution sci lines 30 dale sez mr hathaway 's post right money , little lengthy short , orbiting billboard would trash , way billboard earth trash billboards make place look laws many places prohibiting use light pollution complaints mainly attempt find tangible reason orbiting billboards people n't feel morally justified complain grounds things would defile beauty sky n't buy things value , people would n't spend money make lack value opinion , actual fact , neither legal basis prohibiting hand , lived il , laws prohibit billboards , mention think fine law , despite 's contradictory basis would guess best legal moral basis protest would violation private property bought house , , specifically enjoy hobby , amateur astronomy billboard made investment worthless , want price property , damages would n't take many succesful cases like make bill sats expensive tommy mac tom mcwilliams 517 355 2178 wk communicated communists , 18084tm ibm cl msu edu 336 9591 hm pacified pacifists
netcom com \( \) subject hall generators ussr keywords hall generators , thrusters , ussr , jpl organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 21 hi folks , last year america bought two hall generators used thrusters space vehicles former ussr , could recall correctly devices sent jpl , pasadena labs testing evaluation curious know devices work principle involved became also controversy russian actually cheated , sold inferior devices one use space vehicles info appreciated ok thank advance lockheed commercial aircraft center norton afb , san netcom com cleveland freenet edu
nsmca aurora alaska edu subject human planets \? lines 24 nntp posting host acad3 alaska edu organization university alaska fairbanks planets also dependent kind plant life grown length growing season \( want something vat food , argh , id eat mre along period time \) know fairbanks \( \) winter get 60 f , summer get 90 know worse places low pressure atmosphere limit human \( someone woman must come lower elevations babies brought term \? true \? \) remember book think delt planet lower density air wonder limit end atmospheres \? limiting human needs stresses alien thou aliens might adapted totally alien human environment , upper atmosphere jupiter \? \? almost makes bio engineered life easy michael adams , nsmca acad3 alaska edu i'm high , jacked
nsmca aurora alaska edu subject combo propulsion system ! \? lines 9 nntp posting host acad3 alaska edu organization university alaska fairbanks hard easy would combo mission solar sail way outer planets , near orbit use normal means seems everyone talks using one system one system per mission , one propulsion system \? miss something \? \? die committee \? michael adams , nsmca acad3 alaska edu i'm high , jacked
nsmca aurora alaska edu subject electrical spacecraft via magnetic field earth \? lines 22 nntp posting host acad3 alaska edu organization university alaska fairbanks okay , earth magnetic field \( unless someone missed something \? \) okay put object earth magnetic field , produces electricty question use electricity power space low earth orbit vehicle \? , use magnetic field earth power \? \? idea dragless satellite used part create electrical field \? dragless satellite \( might wrong \) , suspended , compensate drag think know want say , sure say dragless satellite sounds interestingly enough liek generator michael adams , nsmca acad3 alaska edu i'm high , jacked sorry spelling , brought windows 3 1 online modem comm program yet ! !
cpqhou se hou compaq com \( jay \) subject rocket types organization compaq computer corp lines 13 article wraith cs uow edu au , wraith cs uow edu au \( glen justin balmer \) says message id wraith cs uow edu au , anybody heard particle system \? thanx 8 \) glen balmer believe former employer hughes aircraft company working ion propulsion system satellites jay
nsmca aurora alaska edu subject mothership flybys cutting costs lines 27 nntp posting host acad3 alaska edu organization university alaska fairbanks getting wierd \? okay figure mission specifically pluto large expensive okay launching one probe multiple parts kind liek old principle old cold war days basically mean design mother ship piggy backed probes different missions , namely different planets probe would tied mother ship \( earth case may \) good go mars \( mars mission act either mother ship relay point probes also mother ship would powered \( mars mission \) normal propulsion , also solar sail \( main reason solar sail race see done \? \) sail would get probes needed know asteroid meteor clouds \( \) might get way sail \? \? main ro mother ship idea make send multiple probes mission satellites different places cut costs probes could fly \? \? shall see michael adams , nsmca acad3 alaska edu i'm high , jacked
schumach convex com \( richard schumacher \) subject hst servicing mission scheduled 11 days nntp posting host starman convex com organization convex computer corporation , richardson , tx , usa distribution na x disclaimer message written user convex computer corp opinions expressed user necessarily convex lines 21 access digex net prb access digex net \( pat \) writes different would contamination threat small manuevering tug shuttle 's oms engines \? \? \? \? \? \? aperture door shut reboost using shuttle means someone nearby pry door open stick figured , goldin wants really , prove faster , cheaper better , whiz kids slap together expendable space manuevering tug , use boost 's clear whiz kids running show case 's prudent stick slapped together explosive device end billion dollar asset 'd like see \( might say shuttle slapped together explosive device , least 's testing \)
matthew phantom gatech edu \( matthew deluca \) subject mothership flybys cutting costs organization dorsai grey captains lines 16 nntp posting host oit gatech edu article 1993may1 1 aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes getting wierd \? perhaps even weird \? okay figure mission specifically pluto large expensive hmmm , might want read group carefully 's good amount discussion proposed pluto fast flyby \( \) mission specifically designed small cheap matthew deluca georgia institute technology , atlanta georgia , 30332 uucp ! decvax , hplabs , ncar , purdue , rutgers ! gatech ! prism ! matthew internet matthew phantom gatech edu
cicb fr \( frank roussel \) subject ftp images astro server keywords ftp , astronomy , images , gif organization cicb , de , fr lines 23 commend everybody look ftp site cicb ethernet address 129 20 128 2 directory pub images astro lots images \( kinds astronomy subject \) especially gif format new ! directory jpl animations comfort , readme files subdirectories give size description image , 7 days' newer list note connect user , quota 8 users connected time , server responds connection refused , patient ! 2nd note site reachable gopher cicb ethernet address 129 20 128 27 ftp le ftp du cri cicb images comments , suggestions , problems , contact e mail univ hope enjoy !
schumach convex com \( richard schumacher \) subject temperature dark sky nntp posting host starman convex com organization convex computer corporation , richardson , tx , usa x disclaimer message written user convex computer corp opinions expressed user necessarily convex lines 10 1993apr30 head cfa harvard edu willner head cfa harvard edu \( steve willner \) writes cooked case event , energy density starlight comes microwave background , believe correct \) yeah , \? weird coincidence \? \( let 's see hands time , \)
schumach convex com \( richard schumacher \) subject boeing tsto \( words chairman boeing \) nntp posting host starman convex com organization convex computer corporation , richardson , tx , usa x disclaimer message written user convex computer corp opinions expressed user necessarily convex lines 7 description boeing study two staged using supersonic ramjets deleted words , boeing seriously thinking reliable , less expensive access orbit like fool around exotic airplanes
schumach convex com \( richard schumacher \) subject gamma ray bursters nntp posting host starman convex com organization convex computer corporation , richardson , tx , usa x disclaimer message written user convex computer corp opinions expressed user necessarily convex lines 3 following discussion grbs going sci astro 's discussed detail , references even
organization penn state university rfm psuvm psu edu subject moon image weather sat image 1993apr30 unocal com netcom com lines 10 article netcom com , netcom com \( william e \) says brighten dark part cv043015 gif viewer see two objects near upper left part moon one actually weather satellite moon bill objects \? ufos \? \? \? \?
matthew phantom gatech edu \( matthew deluca \) subject boeing tsto \( words chairman boeing \) organization dorsai grey captains lines 13 nntp posting host oit gatech edu article schumach convex convex com schumach convex com \( richard schumacher \) writes words , boeing seriously thinking reliable , less expensive access orbit like fool around exotic airplanes presupposes supersonic aircraft spacecraft reliable low cost unproven matthew deluca georgia institute technology , atlanta georgia , 30332 uucp ! decvax , hplabs , ncar , purdue , rutgers ! gatech ! prism ! matthew internet matthew phantom gatech edu
kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov subject single launch space station organization nasa jsc gm2 , space shuttle program office x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 x posted jsc nasa gov nntp posting host sol ctr columbia edu lines 26 andy cohen cohen ssdgwy mdc com writes single launch core station concept shuttle external tank solid rocket boosters would used launch station orbit shuttle main engines would mounted tail station module launch jettisoned et separation karl \( mcimail com \) replied jettison \? hold shuttle bring use spares \? one performance reason comes mind jettison ssme 's , n't drag perform burn \( \) orbit , ssme 's dead weight , since n't ssme h2 o2 mechanism works zero g means ca n't use boost anything else dead weight couple advantages , disadvantages throw away ssme 's might let us use old ssme 's quite man doubt 'd cost launch failure high ken jenks , nasa jsc gm2 , space shuttle program office kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov \( 713 \) 483 4368 development space station inevitable rising sun von braun
wales larrison ofa123 fidonet org subject kaliningrad \( tsniimach enterprise \) x sender newtout 0 08 feb 23 1993 lines 26 f baube tm writes tsniimach enterprise described ex military establishment , located near npo energia facility kaliningrad , outside moscow facility kaliningrad , near moscow , fact ex east prussian , russian enclave baltic coast served ships rail , intrepid europe would find accessible might even want try arrange tour \( \? \? \) hmm must two towns name kaliningrad , located north moscow correct home several russian space enterprises , including npo energia , , , tsniimach main russian manned spacecraft control facility also located kaliningrad easily reachable auto moscow , tours arranged call ahead though , still armed military guards many facilities n't speak english , n't well paid , rather bored 's popular destination western space industry types moment wales larrison space technology investor maximus 2 01wb
kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov subject astronauts weightlessness feel like \? organization nasa jsc gm2 , space shuttle program office x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 x posted jsc nasa gov nntp posting host sol ctr columbia edu lines 81 article 1993apr29 morgan com , morgan com \( jerry \) writes want know weightlessness actually feels like example , constant sensation falling \? ron baalke \( baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov \) replied yes , weightlessness feel like falling may feel strange first , body adjust feeling different sky diving i'm astronaut , 've flown kc 135 several times 'll tell first flight set weightlessness , shoulders lifted spine straightened felt momentary panic , hands tried grab onto something \( like strap keeping firmly floor \) prevent falling remember ruling involuntary motions ears felt \( heard \) rush could feel fluid moving head \( like get bed cold \) point , ceased concentrate physiological response , since science busy keeping experiment going keeping track parts return gravity subsequent 1 8 g pull , n't really pay attention physiology time 5 , discovered performing one tricks 've discovered keep getting motion sickness keeping head still moving slowly except hands arms , needed rapid , motion experiment pull 5 , finally started get , use one air sickness bags basically useless rest flight , went seats back plane partner \( drafted purpose \) kept working experiment ill \( vomit comet rider , one people n't get sick thing \) n't think constant sensation falling much like swimming air 's close feel i'm diving turn head jerry motion sickness astronauts occasionally experience \? ron body 's reaction strange environment appears induced partly physical discomfort part mental distress people prone others , like people prone get sick roller ride others mental part usually induced lack clear indication way , ie shuttle normally oriented cargo bay pointed towards earth , earth \( ground \) head astronauts 50 astronauts experience form motion sickness , nasa done numerous tests space try see keep number occurances i'm volunteer jsc 's space biomedical laboratory , among things , tests ron mentions one called pre flight adaptation trainer , consisted chair several degree freedom motion base moving geometric visual aids goal measure victim 's h h h h h h h h subject 's responses subjective physiological descriptions see repeated exposure environment could reduce future motion sickness symptoms jerry n't know former active duty astronauts personally read group know bruce 's office waiting anxiously space station redesign option posted last week , n't think bruce reads group ken jenks , nasa jsc gm2 , space shuttle program office kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov \( 713 \) 483 4368 man makes mistakes usually make anything edward john phelps , american diplomat lawyer \( 1895 \)
kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov subject space dock organization nasa jsc gm2 , space shuttle program office x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 x posted jsc nasa gov nntp posting host sol ctr columbia edu lines 42 article 1993apr30 1 aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes build inflatable space dock henry spencer \( henry zoo toronto edu \) wrote 're large scale satellite servicing , able pressurized hangar makes considerable sense question whether anyone going large scale satellite servicing near future , point justifying development thing 's mighty fine idea since asked , 'll respond putting aside application space dock , factors consider pressurized volume temperature control difficult space , inflatable hangar incorporate thermal insulation \( maybe double inflatable \) protection radiation protection also required n't think clear plastic bubble 's likely look like big white ball made kind multi layer fabric soft space suits made today almost manned space vessels \( skylab , mir , salyut \) used increased structural rigidity , even though \( \) metal skins , still kind qualify inflatable inflation process would carefully controlled space environment reduces exposed materials \( due temperature extremes , oxygen , radiation effects materials \) , fabric may retain flexibility long \( may matter \) even inflation , pressure changes hangar may cause flexing fabric , could lead holes tears decreases technical difficulties llnl proposal inflatable space station dealt varying degrees success ken jenks , nasa jsc gm2 , space shuttle program office kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov \( 713 \) 483 4368 good ideas common 's uncommon people 'll work hard enough bring brilliant
techbook techbook com \( dan \) subject teflon \( long term human missions organization public access lines 25 nntp posting host techbook techbook com hausner qucis queensu ca \( hausner \) writes rek siss81 \( robert kaye \) writes contributions space program regular society 2 teflon \( eggs n't stick pan \) sorry split hairs , read making atomic bomb \( \) teflon developed world war 2 needed tubing uranium passed gradually enriched corrosive , inert yet flexible material needed seals think 're right teflon actually discovered accident wwii 've heard , chemical \( assume \) tank valve got cutting open revealed material useful seals , major problem , say linings vessels would n't stick metal space program find way get stick thus stick market late dan techbook com
jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu \( josh hopkins \) subject llnl inflated space stations \( space dock \) organization university illinois urbana lines 20 kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov writes article 1993apr30 1 aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes build inflatable space dock discussion pros cons deleted technical difficulties llnl proposal inflatable space station dealt varying degrees success could someone give references llnl proposal \? 've meaning track something i'm working 's directly related space stations , think many principles carry josh hopkins jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu find way make one attributed hannibal
prb access digex net \( pat \) subject hst servicing mission scheduled 11 days organization express access online communications usa lines 25 nntp posting host access digex net article zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) writes article access digex net prb access digex net \( pat \) writes , thing designed retrievable , pinch indeed , dictated rather odd design solar arrays , since retractable well extendable design solar arrays detachable shuttle going retunr hst , bother arrays detached emergency expensive hardware thrown away casually \( bearing mind nobody knew design defective \) deployment crew found nasty flaw lid failing open , example would bit embarrassing throw solar arrays away get thing back payload bay guess 's kind aesthetics argument see solar arrays expensive , could would throwing away brand new solar cells , seems cheap compared shuttle mission , would n't think would bother pat
prb access digex net \( pat \) subject political banner space organization express access online communications usa lines 13 nntp posting host access digex net well , better get shuttle launch vehicle elv 's far political messages campaign season , candidates president launched one , right around 'd getting launch perot 92 used shuttle , 'd seeing launches nixon ever pat
prb access digex net \( pat \) subject teflon \( long term human missions organization express access online communications usa lines 18 nntp posting host access digex net article techbook techbook com techbook techbook com \( dan \) writes material useful seals , major problem , say linings vessels would n't stick metal space program find way get stick thus stick market late full professor clarkson university , last heard , developed process sticking teflon metals n't think nasa project , cuz heard held patent , made quite bundle anyone clarkson know exact story never wanted ask pat
prb access digex net \( pat \) subject space manuevering tug \( hst servicing mission \) organization express access online communications usa lines 83 nntp posting host access digex net article news cso uiuc edu jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu \( josh hopkins \) writes prb access digex net \( pat \) writes given described hst seemed smt , given mass discovery mission tight enough spacewalking carefully constrained edo pallets , spare suits , extra mmu 's someone actually verified mass predominant constraint mission \? seem assuming without giving supporting evidence someone nasa posted significant mass margins hst boost mission back asked carry edo pallet , answer mass margins tight enough , n't even carrying extra suits \? quick test goldins philosophjy faster cheaper , better build real fast space tug , handle boost hst using clean cryo fuels , get ready hst mission pat , would slower , expensive worse slower shuttle mission scheduled go december 's less eight months away way could build new hardware , retrain eva 's time 's wingo need \) come knock forget , skylab , overnight mission planning repair eva 's also intelsat mission , overnight simulations somehow think could train new eva 8 months building hardware , anything built want bad enough forget , bus 1 already built 'd ahve soup , even test delta mission n't get mode besides , rate missions slip , discovery wo n't launch mission march 's almost year expensive proposal still requires shuttle everything going fire oms addition , 've added significant extra cost new piece complex hardware ah , much expensive second hst servicing mission forget , bum fgs , solar array electronics , getting still 8 months servicing mission time space walks growing rapidly planned 3 spacewalks , 5 eva 's 3 reserve walks smt avoid second servicing mission 's 500 million saved weight savings , means sit orbit 30 days handle contingency problems , 's quite savings according gao report , two currently planned missions could use vehicle hst axaf since axaf since scaled back hst rely shuttle , n't seem need vehicle course , n't need saturn v apollo problems aperture door , sure work way handle maybe plug made frozen ice \? 'll keep contamination , yet sublime away teh boost pat
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject combo propulsion system ! \? organization u toronto zoology lines 20 article 1993may1 1 aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes hard easy would combo mission solar sail way outer planets , near orbit use normal means 've got good propulsion system 's useful deceleration , sure use chemical rockets part even deceleration chemically major headache 're talking seriously high cruising velocities taking velocity nearly zero pluto orbit n't easy chemical fuels incidentally , solar sails going suitable acceleration system something like n't go anywhere quickly \( speak head mission planning canadian solar sail project , although less honorary title right dormant \) ca n't fly mission like unless start talking advanced systems drop close sun first svr4 resembles high speed collision henry spencer u toronto zoology svr3 sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject electrical spacecraft via magnetic field earth \? organization u toronto zoology lines 39 article 1993may1 1 aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes okay , earth magnetic field put object earth magnetic field , produces electricty well , 's simple 're earth 's magnetic field , n't generate electricity done question use electricity power space low earth orbit vehicle \? , use magnetic field earth power \? \? way power things electricity , answer first question definitely yes \( meant say rather power , answer sort \) yes , use interaction earth 's magnetic field get electrical power , potential applications however , bear mind free lunch energy n't coming nowhere systems convert energy orbital velocity electrical energy cases useful tradeoff using power obtained way propulsion useful special situations , however get power means , e g solar arrays , run interaction magnetic field reverse , pumping energy orbit rather taking energy want information , trying looking propulsion , tether applications , idea dragless satellite used part create electrical field \? dragless satellite magically drag burns fuel constantly fight drag , maintaining exact orbit would drag quotes around dragless svr4 resembles high speed collision henry spencer u toronto zoology svr3 sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
wam umd edu \( mr \) subject moon image weather sat image nntp posting host rac2 wam umd edu organization university maryland , college park lines 14 article 1993apr30 unocal com stgprao st unocal com \( richard ottolini \) writes article usenet ucs indiana edu turner bigbang astro indiana edu \( george wm turner \) writes image moon caught weather satellite images earth near , see sun ocean cool ! also solar see shadow sun move across clouds think mean moon \( sorry , \) \)
prb access digex net \( pat \) subject vandalizing sky organization express access online communications usa lines 13 distribution sci nntp posting host access digex net article inc 1 cs cmu edu 18084tm msu edu \( tom \) writes hand , lived il , laws prohibit billboards , mention think fine law , despite 's contradictory basis lived nice farm valley butler family decided stick sorts really tacky high rise office buildings ruin view sky guess sued somebody pat
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject mothership flybys cutting costs organization u toronto zoology lines 22 article 1993may1 1 aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes design mother ship piggy backed probes different missions , namely different planets useful unless 've got truly wonderful propulsion system mother ship ca n't applied probes otherwise 's better simply launch probes independently outer planets scattered widely across two dimensional solar system , going one seldom helpful going next one uranus way neptune n't judge interplanetary trajectories general voyagers exploited lineup occurs every couple centuries , even voyager 2 took rather indirect route neptune also mother ship would powered \( mars mission \) normal propulsion , also solar sail solar sails pretty useless outer solar system 're also slow , unless assume quite advanced versions svr4 resembles high speed collision henry spencer u toronto zoology svr3 sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
abdkw stdvax gsfc nasa gov \( david ward \) subject hst servicing mission scheduled 11 days news software vax vms vnews 1 4 b1 organization goddard space flight center robotics lab lines 26 article access digex net , prb access digex net \( pat \) writes article zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) writes , thing designed retrievable , pinch indeed , dictated rather odd design solar arrays , since retractable well extendable , may thus indirectly contributed array problems design solar arrays detachable shuttle going retunr hst , bother arrays fit quick release n't think bi stem design used much retrieval ability launch tight \( size \) sts envelope guess , based similar designs flown large sts launched c \( gro , uars \) also , might consideration given mass requirements \( bi stems weight less conventional \) finally , hst arrays ability detached remember , 're going replaced new arrays however , acs guy 's seen branch management pull collective hair hst , would voice hearty using conventional arrays bi stems , whenever possible half hertz flexible modes , thermal snap , problem david w gsfc
howard astro wisc edu \( greg howard \) subject gamma ray bursters energetic could \? organization university wisconsin astronomy department lines 40 nntp posting host astro wisc edu article 1993apr26 200406 1 vax1 mankato msus edu belgarath vax1 mankato msus edu writes article senator bedfellow mit edu , jfc athena mit edu \( john f carr \) writes much energy burster put \? know energy depends distance , unknown answer form x ergs per 2 ok different spheres r \( oort cloud radius \) , r 22 5pc \( edge galaxy \) , r 183 5pc edge galactic corona , lastly r radius 25 pc , found l around 10 32 erg sec pretty energetic close coronal model , found around 10 43 erg sec lastly , cosmological model l 10 53 's 'd call moderately energetic , 'd say suggestions could put much energy one second \? jeremy put 10 53 10 54 \( forget , 's order magnitude \) gamma rays , though 'd hafta get gammas 9 mpc , decent fraction sn output gammas could reasonably \( closer 9 mpc \) dunno sn theory well , ca n't think get many gammas maybe look big radio galaxies put 10 46 erg continually 's radio lot gammas around , , bursts \? nah neither taken explanations trying show energies produced things know greg
davem ee ubc ca \( dave michelson \) subject mothership flybys cutting costs organization university bc , electrical engineering lines 11 article zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) writes voyagers exploited lineup occurs every couple centuries , even voyager 2 took rather indirect route neptune indirect compared \? voyager 2 substantially greater distance , say , orbit \? 've never heard voyager 's path described indirect dave michelson davem ee ubc ca university british columbia
isaackuo skippy berkeley edu \( isaac kuo \) subject electrical spacecraft via magnetic field earth \? organization u c berkeley math department lines 41 nntp posting host skippy berkeley edu article 1993may1 1 aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes okay , earth magnetic field \( unless someone missed something \? \) okay put object earth magnetic field , produces electricty , put conductor changing magnetic field , produces voltage two ways permanent magnet move magnet move conductor slow shifting earth 's magnetic field n't really significant , especially consider weak earth 's magnetic field begin question use electricity power space low earth orbit vehicle \? , use magnetic field earth power \? \? well , would require generating incredibly large magnetic field repel earth 's magnetic field \( magnet repel another magnet \) course , force works one direction , magnetic field generated powerful magnetic drops 1 r 3 , earth 's magnetic field surface already weak would require sort unknown , special construction seriously electronics \( optical computers , perhaps \) physiological danger would significant \( due iron content blood , among things \) words , forget idea dragless satellite used part create electrical field \? dragless satellite \( might wrong \) , suspended , compensate drag think know want say , sure say dragless satellite sounds interestingly enough liek generator missed dragless satellite thread , sounds totally bogus , little bit isaac kuo \( isaackuo math berkeley edu \) twinkle , twinkle , little sig , \( \( \) \) keep less 5 lines big
subject gamma ray bursters alien gen nz \( ross smith \) distribution world organization labs lines 31 article 1993apr27 132255 12653 tpl68k0 tplrd tpl oz au keithh tplrd tpl oz au \( keith harwood \) writes article gap caltech edu , palmer cco caltech edu \( david palmer \) writes prb access digex com \( pat \) writes evidence indicates gamma ray bursters far away \? given enormous power , wondering , quantum black holes something like fairly close \? would galactic ranges \? david gives good explaination deductions isotropic , 'edged' distribution , whit , either part universe part oort cloud n't know mean 'edged' , surely two possibilities isotropic distribution near interstellar \( 100 pc , e within disc \) , galaxy 's corona \? could n't earth centred , edge occuring edge gravisphere \? know n't mechanism , n't mechanism others either ross smith \( , nz \) alien gen nz among gods , dispute one originally thought christianity , call , great leg pull apollo best claim , sizeable minority support pluto , ex god dead , grounds really sick sense humour \( tom holt \)
jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu \( josh hopkins \) subject space manuevering tug \( hst servicing mission \) organization university illinois urbana lines 113 prb access digex net \( pat \) writes wrote prb access digex net \( pat \) writes given described hst seemed smt , someone actually verified mass predominant constraint mission \? seem assuming without giving supporting evidence someone nasa posted significant mass margins hst boost mission back asked carry edo pallet , answer mass margins tight enough , n't even carrying extra suits much mass saved burning oms \? 's critical question data shows oms engines hold 10 , 900 kg propellant , substantial fraction going used first oms burn , reentry burn reserve pat , tell us much fuel altitude change going take , much edo pallet , bus 1 extra parts going mass make numbers work , 'll interested show us done , tell us much edo pallet , bus 1 extra equipment going cost \? quick test goldins philosophjy faster cheaper , better build real fast space tug , handle boost hst using clean cryo fuels , get ready hst mission pat , would slower , expensive worse 's wingo need \) come knock forget , skylab , overnight mission planning repair eva 's also intelsat mission , overnight simulations somehow think could train new eva 8 months first , astronauts certainly done evas minimal planning , n't like general rule second , remember intelsat 6 \? trying attach motor piece hardware n't designed trying shortcut training going make repeat likely third , n't eight months however much time left someone comes plan , shows work gets approved may think pessimistic attitude think 's realistic i'm saying engineering task impossible \( engineering tasks \) i'm saying neither cost effective feasible nasa management building hardware , anything built want bad enough forget , bus 1 already built 'd ahve soup , even test delta mission soup \? mean \? n't get mode besides , rate missions slip , discovery wo n't launch mission march 's almost year expensive proposal still requires shuttle everything going fire oms addition , 've added significant extra cost new piece complex hardware ah , much expensive second hst servicing mission second servicing mission contingency neither shown would necessary without plan would unnecessary plan forget , bum fgs , solar array electronics , getting still 8 months servicing mission , pat , n't forgotten smt avoid second servicing mission 's 500 million saved pat 's 500 million minus cost new hardware , minus cost extra want bring along , minus development costs , minus extra operating costs tanstaafl according gao report , two currently planned missions could use vehicle hst axaf since axaf since scaled back hst rely shuttle , n't seem need vehicle course , n't need saturn v apollo i'm sure reread 'll see argument problems aperture door , sure work way handle maybe plug made frozen ice \? 'll keep contamination , yet sublime away teh boost pat , messy less reliable device 's made perform task , also ignores point desire astronauts available door fails open , something done unless provide reliable way door , n't solved problem josh hopkins jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu find way make one attributed hannibal
mlindroos finabo abo fi \( marcus lindroos inf \) subject mothership flybys cutting costs reply nsmca aurora alaska edu 's message sat , 1 may 1993 13 13 12 gmt organization abo akademi university , finland x news reader vms news 1 24 lines 52 1993may1 1 aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes getting wierd \? okay launching one probe multiple parts kind liek old principle old cold war days basically mean design mother ship piggy backed probes different missions , namely different planets probe would tied mother ship \( earth case may \) good go mars \( mars mission act either mother ship relay point probes ca n't see need single \( big \? expensive \? heavy \? \) mothership except voyager style flyby missions years ago , calculations grand tour space probe launched saturn v 1975 76 time , felt idea big mother ship merit voyagers rather small , lightweight craft due limitations imposed using weak titan iii centaur launchers concept examined \( michael 's \? \) lot common british interplanetary society 's daedalus project sending probe 's star e large bus spacecraft carrying several smaller probes dispatched ship arrives destination saturn v supposedly would able launch 10 ton payload towards jupiter beyond bus could included far powerful cameras telescopes scientific equipment heavier powerful power source voyagers would limitations weight anymore extremely important voyagers perform measurements within couple weeks planetary encounter , usually relatively great distance smaller probes carried aboard might based real voyagers , even smaller version like one scheduled launch towards pluto early 21st century , would released various points mission advantages obvious bus would carried basic jupiter saturn uranus neptune mission voyager 2 , addition two sub probes could saturn , examining planet 's south polar regions moving pluto would enabled nasa map hemispheres pluto charon 1986 several probes could examined parts jupiter saturn uranus neptune systems n't examined great detail voyagers due trajectory related factors small camera equipped miniature space probes released month encounter would costly small voyager type mission entirely feasible launched heavy , well equipped spacecraft would learned lot outer planets ! reason grand tour cancelled lack money , course marcu michael adams , nsmca acad3 alaska edu i'm high , jacked
mt90dac brunel ac uk \( del cotter \) subject planets habitable organization brunel university , west london , uk lines 37 iyd fs7 ece cmu edu , loss fs7 ece cmu edu \( doug loss \) writes jpg 93apr27135219 holly bnr co uk jpg bnr co uk \( jonathan p gibbons \) writes would appreciate thoughts makes planet habitable humans making asumptions life similar atmosphere evolve given range physical aspects planet question physical aspects simply disallow earth like conditions dandridge cole isaac asimov collaborated book titled , habitable planets man \( think \) 1964 available good libraries , inter library loan references h dole habitable planets man publishing company , new york \( 1964 \) n't know found j extra solar planetary systems microcomputer simulation j brit interplanetary soc , 38 , 501 514 , \( 1985 \) estimate prevalence habitable planets j brit interplanetary soc , 45 , 3 12 , \( 1992 \) first paper includes detailed discussion physical conditions ' , ' ' ' , ' , ' ' , ' ' ' , ' , ' ' , , ' , ' del cotter mt90dac brunel ac uk ' , , ' , ' ' , ' ' , '
wampyr cc uow edu au \( glen k moore \) subject fax email wanted louis friedman planetary society organization university wollongong , nsw , australia lines 7 nntp posting host wampyr cc uow edu au summary want obtain fax email address planetary society keywords planetary friedman available please send glen moore director science centre wollongong , australia fax 61 42 email cc uow edu au
fcrary ucsu colorado edu \( frank crary \) subject human planets \? nntp posting host ucsu colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 16 article 1993may1 1 aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes planets also dependent kind plant life grown length growing season \( want something vat food , argh , id eat mre along period time \) using extend growing season n't problem i'm n't alaska \( cheaper import , perhaps \? \) low pressure atmosphere limit human \( someone woman must come lower elevations babies brought term \? true \? \) , problems , spanish frank crary cu boulder
\( walter \) subject large accelerations revisited organization university illinois urbana lines 12 ca n't aircraft designed pilot always maintained upright position , perpendicular plane acceleration \? visual helmets used display flight parameters keyboard equipment moving pilot , pilot may able function accelerations excess anyone currently pursuing area reason impossible present time \? walter walter capone uiuc edu u illinois urbana champaign
jafoust cco caltech edu \( jeff foust \) subject mothership flybys cutting costs organization caltech pasadena , california , usa lines 32 nntp posting host sandman caltech edu recent article nsmca aurora alaska edu writes okay figure mission specifically pluto large expensive 'd hardly call current pluto fast flyby proposal large \( new technology insertion currently taking place succeeds , c mass drop 110 120 kg \) expensive \( 400 million two c \) , especially compared nasa planetary missions basically mean design mother ship piggy backed probes different missions , namely different planets probe would tied mother ship \( earth case may \) good go mars \( mars mission act either mother ship relay point probes proposal would work various targets nearby require minimal delta v mother ship mission main belt might one possibility mission recall paper presented aiaa conference irvine february proposed spacecraft designed grad students ut austin \( think \) four mini spacecraft would main c , visiting seperate asteroid returning main c analysis , main c would targeted interesting object study , could find paper \) jeff foust 40 days ! historical analogy last refuge senior , planetary science , caltech people ca n't grasp current jafoust cco caltech edu situation red mars jeff jpl nasa gov kim stanley robinson
rbunge access digex net \( robert bunge \) subject vandalizing sky organization express access online communications service , greenbelt , maryland usa lines 44 nntp posting host access digex net article news cso uiuc edu jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu \( josh hopkins \) writes rbunge access digex net \( robert bunge \) writes 's vandalism many people power companies maliciously waste light maliciously implies evil intent lighting companies n't going way spoil sky n't care sell city state unshielded light wastes 30 50 percent light , make money never mind money wasted responsibility customer choose efficient hardware 's city buy , 's lighting company sell write letter city hall 's fine idea , works lighting power company even bothers supply good light fixtures instance , power company virginia recently asked state commission permission sell lights various type yet , different fixture sold wanted sell bad designs one wasted light thus , could n't even buy good light places , get good light , either order special high cost call store arizona point , society starts make rules cars pass safety tests companies meet pollution standards , etc two ways achieve educate public demand good lighting force code lighting companies backs history seems suggest latter likely work please note i'm defending light pollution focus thread space based light sources agreed , wo n't respond 's important realize people object various wild ideas presented like congress , would best consult astronomers lovers night sky try pr stunt boost public knowledge space josh hopkins jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu find way make one attributed hannibal bob bunge rbunge access digex com
prb access digex net \( pat \) subject u government technolgy investment organization express access online communications usa lines 34 nntp posting host access digex net article 1993apr30 aio jsc nasa gov kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov writes 's interesting note best tools cost control available industry today derived government projects charts , cp , modern scheduling software comes dod projects contractors construction industry course , many government projects using , gant , c p process flow diagrams , level 5 software projects actually come schedule cost know gao determined 80 nasa projects miss budgets due failing adequately measure engineering developement costs , favor government r thought bell labs one best research n't think government pour money one sector , engage projects naturally push state art things like high tech construction projects , apollo worth running hte national labs ssc grossly overweight , reasonable project lower cost unfortunately support solo investigators neglected maybe , throw much process tell new ph , get 1 time grant 50 , 000 00 produce , qualify grants n't never get way young people get shot , older scientists n't dominate process pat
prb access digex net \( pat \) subject france spied u organization express access online communications usa lines 5 distribution sci nntp posting host access digex net way french agents steal documents us corporate executives \? pat
ken sugra uucp \( kenneth ng \) subject hst servicing mission scheduled 11 days organization private computer , totowa , nj lines 18 article zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) writes article 1993apr30 1 stsci edu hathaway stsci edu writes also , implied posters , need boost orbit mission anyway \? n't need , 's desirable hst , like satellites low earth orbit , gradually losing altitude due air drag deployed highest orbit shuttle could reach , reason needs occasional eventually \( propulsion system \) thought given going boost hst yet \? give push \? see push start cartoons \) kenneth ng please reply ken blue njit edu might elaborate simulation running little device sitting someone 's table j l picard st tng
prb access digex net \( pat \) subject report redesign team organization express access online communications usa lines 52 distribution world nntp posting host access digex net article cohen q5022531 mdc com cohen ssdgwy mdc com \( andy cohen \) writes following feed us posted already , number items seen yet design teams presented three options study option modular buildup pete priest presented option priest n't think work still space integration problems , small modules , especially bus 1 modules mol would bigger also , budget problems may end small station wont science community support option b freedom derived mike griffin presented status option program may cut costs , basic problems freedom remain space integration , many flights build enough science option c launch core station chet vaughn presented option c , single launch core station concept shuttle external tank solid 5 billion build mir think nasa locked onto design , back 1984 , scarring support truss real , 'd looking flying space station looks realistic , , imho , , dont know enough power toss cdr 'd existing hardware take 1 3rd power cut way core launch station lot positive ideas could stick hatches experimental concept modules like et derived workshops inflatable modules pat \( oct 31 cancellation opinion ac \) sad true killed mis management pat
prb access digex net \( pat \) subject space manuevering tug \( hst servicing mission \) organization express access online communications usa lines 121 nntp posting host access digex net article news cso uiuc edu jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu \( josh hopkins \) writes prb access digex net \( pat \) writes wrote prb access digex net \( pat \) writes data shows oms engines hold 10 , 900 kg propellant , substantial fraction going used first oms burn , reentry burn reserve pat , tell us much fuel altitude change going take , much edo pallet , bus 1 extra parts going mass make numbers work , 'll interested show us done , tell us much edo pallet , bus 1 extra equipment going cost n't know anyone nasa land know much fuel budgeted altitude change \? henry , figures mass \( full \) edo pallet plus 's dry weight \? dry mass bus 1 \? de classified checked last also , need 1 \) current orbital parameters hst 2 \) projected orbital parameters boost 3 \) discovery 's dry weight 4 \) hst 's dry weight somehow think could train new eva 8 months first , astronauts certainly done evas minimal planning , n't like general rule long need train \? year \? 2 years \? somehow think 2 3 adequate second , remember intelsat 6 \? trying attach motor piece hardware n't designed trying shortcut training going make repeat likely also significantly lacked orbit eva experience hst designed orbit servicing lot easier third , n't eight months however much time left someone comes plan , shows work gets approved may think pessimistic attitude think 's realistic i'm saying engineering task impossible \( engineering tasks \) i'm saying neither cost effective feasible nasa management comes time every project , kill management neccessary , schedule hst mission december drop dead date , unlike say retrieval mission soup \? mean \? suspect , bus 1 , may enough basic thrust hst boost need bigger tanks , bigger thrusters understanding second hst servicing mission contingency understanding mission needs new work electrical system , plus another boost smt avoid second servicing mission 's 500 million saved pat 's 500 million minus cost new hardware , minus cost extra want bring along , minus development costs , minus extra operating costs tanstaafl somehow , think cost expendable smt less 500 million extra stuff real cheap nasa lots suits , mmu 's , edo pallets usable oh , one double magnum , 's couple hundred bucks pat , messy less reliable device 's made perform task , also ignores point desire astronauts available door fails open , something done unless provide reliable way door , n't solved problem door cycled , x times already massive g loading somehow think work ou reliability methods ensure door works also , please tell sort material like co2 , h2o would manage contaminate mirror , anything goes vapor state , n't adhere mirror somehow , door , problem worked maybe put one time spring , door hangs door part mechanism hangs tomorrow , 'll 8 months someone gets fix pat
prb access digex net \( pat \) subject combo propulsion system ! \? organization express access online communications usa lines 10 nntp posting host access digex net difficult would solar sail mission say mercury \? much 23 \? km delta v eat could solar sail , handle say bus , drop mercury orbit , good enough rockets put form polar orbit \? pat
prb access digex net \( pat \) subject electrical spacecraft via magnetic field earth \? organization express access online communications usa lines 13 nntp posting host access digex net article zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) writes dragless satellite magically drag burns fuel constantly fight drag , maintaining exact orbit would drag quotes around dragless n't exactly follow dragless thread point \? used laser missions \? triad seemed sort navy navigation bird , dragless update orbital parameters \? pat
hrubin pop stat purdue edu \( herman rubin \) subject u government science technolgy investment organization purdue university statistics department lines 75 article 1993apr30 aio jsc nasa gov kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov writes people criticize big government projects rarely seem consistent view role government science technology basically , u government gotten role supporting research private industry finds expensive long term \( historically , role u gov't forced upon socialism countries order u industries compete government subsidized foreign competitors , u gov't taken role big ticket long lead r \) definitely nothing entry government support science relevant technology little involvement federal funds , except support state universities , state funds , scientific research wwii us research position growing steadily , funding mainly university private foundation funds many research universities , provided researchers low teaching loads , laboratories , assistants , equipment , funds travel scientific meetings much , provided , university wishing get scholar consider research funding well salary wwii , military defense departments found pure scientists could quite well problems , even though exactly areas expertise probably research mind approach , try find solution , understand problem see solution works stages , research scientists used discussion problems , job got done military realized importance maintaining scientists future , started funding pure research wwii congress unwilling military funds diverted investment future supply scientists , set organizations , nsf , job also set elaborate procedure supposedly keep politics also , government job private foundations , making difficult act support research worst part federal involvement areas government supports research university provide funding , fact expects scholars bring net government money suppose , case , project could use assistance graduate student months think happens ask one \? answer get , get money nsf money university level thousand , nsf level comes 20 thousand , likely keep faculty member getting supported government , effect , deciding projects get supported , much also , government decided wealth spread instead moderate number universities primarily research institutions , idea schools get act came instead evaluating scholars , go evaluating proposals researcher , tell research proposal mainly wishful thinking , happens , investigator already done work release results research proposing today may solve funding granted , may find impossible , may find difficult addition , tomorrow may get unexpected research results possibly may bet bright idea solves yesterday 's difficult problem , whole new approach something considered develop nature beast , except really vague statements , something predicted , major research , development routine activity requiring minimal attention good researcher believe time less quality research done would happened government never gotten , government trying divert researchers thinkers herman rubin , dept statistics , purdue univ , west lafayette 1399 phone \( 317 \) 494 hrubin snap stat purdue edu \( internet , bitnet \) purdue , pur ee ! snap stat ! hrubin \( uucp \)
zellner stsci edu subject hst servicing mission lines 28 organization space telescope science institute distribution na article schumach convex convex com , schumach convex com \( richard schumacher \) writes access digex net prb access digex net \( pat \) writes different would contamination threat small manuevering tug shuttle 's oms engines \? \? \? \? \? \? aperture door shut reboost using shuttle means someone nearby pry door open stick well , , original deployment mission hst aperture door opened shuttle landed presume boost mission hst would orbiter orbiter bay doors shut still would lots contamination worries understand eva suits one hardest things keep clean still n't know idea coming hst needs boost many problems orbit least certainly plan change orbit first servicing mission december ben
cleveland freenet edu \( stephen \) subject project help organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 17 nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu hello , new news group , need info currently project class internet looking good sources information space astronomy , notably , solar system anyone knows good sites get information kinda stuff , please e mail vax003 stockton edu thanx steve \( newsreader n't sig yet , sorry \) please address vax003 stockton edu faa gov
abdkw stdvax gsfc nasa gov \( david ward \) subject hst servicing mission scheduled 11 days news software vax vms vnews 1 4 b1 organization goddard space flight center robotics lab lines 38 article gap caltech edu , palmer cco caltech edu \( david palmer \) writes may want put hubble back payload bay reboost , n't want clip panels time artist renderings 've seen hst reboost still arrays fully extended , cradle holding hst 30 degree angle shuttle think rendering conceived array approved , i'm sure current reboost occur arrays deployed however , n't appear array retraction necessary reboost gamma ray observatory , one design requirements stored energy \( springs , explosive , gas shocks , etc \) used deployment partially everything could back put back payload bay , partially safety considerations \( 've heard wings cruise missile would cut half standing opened \) thanks input gro 's design constraints would explain similar design uars back shuttle would going every day cost orbit 3 95 per pound \) , everybody designed things easy servicing heck , project used design missions servicing mind xte spacecraft originally designed orbit replacement instrument module way , get two instruments price one spacecraft bus \( explorer platform \) second orbit replacement also considered , fuse telescope david palmer palmer alumni caltech edu palmer tgrs gsfc nasa gov david w gsfc
thomsonal cpva saic com subject drag free satellites organization science applications int'l corp san diego lines 33 sat , 1 may 1993 23 13 39 gmt , henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) said dragless satellite magically drag burns fuel constantly fight drag , maintaining exact orbit would drag well , almost turns clever orbital mechanics engineer things resonant interactions higher order harmonics earth 's gravitational field pump energy satellite , keep experiencing drag effects periods months years favorite example soviet russian heavy satellites cosmos 1603 class , 14 1 resonance particular , undergone two periods prolonged gain altitude , current one started june 1991 mean altitude satellite high ever since launch 18 march 1987 \( looking elements also shows limitations norad 's software 's another story \) probably little relevance space stations , since 71 degree orbits satellites 850 km , far inner van allen belt manned platforms 's kind interesting point view physics situation \( orbital elements satellites available request \) allen thomson saic mclean , va opinion \? , 's mine , saic 's
isaackuo berkeley edu \( isaac kuo \) subject drag free satellites organization u c berkeley math department lines 37 nntp posting host berkeley edu article cpva saic com thomsonal cpva saic com writes sat , 1 may 1993 23 13 39 gmt , henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) said dragless satellite magically drag burns fuel constantly fight drag , maintaining exact orbit would drag well , almost turns clever orbital mechanics engineer things resonant interactions higher order harmonics earth 's gravitational field pump energy satellite , keep experiencing drag effects periods months years harmonic earth 's gravitational field \? harmonic earth 's gravitational field \? favorite example soviet russian heavy satellites cosmos 1603 class , 14 1 resonance 14 1 resonance \? 's like 's wavelength frequency earth 's gravitational field , might interesting interactions moon 's tidal effect 're talking \? probably little relevance space stations , since 71 degree orbits satellites 850 km , far inner van allen belt manned platforms 's kind interesting point view physics situation physics situation \? way see gravitational effects useful adding energy object orbiting earth sort interaction moon isaac kuo \( isaackuo math berkeley edu \) twinkle , twinkle , little sig , \( \( \) \) keep less 5 lines big
perky acs bu edu \( melissa \) subject moon image weather sat image organization boston university , boston , , usa lines 14 originator perky acs bu edu i'm afraid able find gifs list updated weekly , perhaps , missing something \? \( \) \( \( \) \( \) \( \) \) \( \( \) \( \) melissa perky acs bu edu
pgf srl03 cacs usl edu \( phil g fraering \) subject vandalizing sky organization univ southwestern louisiana lines 69 rbunge access digex net \( robert bunge \) writes 's fine idea , works lighting power company even bothers supply good light fixtures instance , power company virginia recently asked state commission permission sell lights various type yet , different fixture sold wanted sell uh , ask state commision \? unless state 's buying process overhead power company selling different types light , efficient lights might planning future , go drain bad designs one wasted light thus , could n't even buy good light places , get good light , either order special high cost call store arizona could order special enough people , would low cost last checked , could use ups buy stuff arizona going finally , i'm sure state things like small factories machine shops could go business making lights cheaper use \( thanks higher efficiency fact n't wasting energy broadcasting space \) therefore better old style point , society starts make rules cars pass safety tests five year plans enacted planning economy fall apart companies meet pollution standards , etc clean air act really cleaned air two ways achieve educate public demand good lighting force code lighting companies backs history seems suggest latter likely work experience seems suggest 're trying hard educate \( methods used american schools make subject whatsoever relevant boring proto \) instead selling idea agreed , wo n't respond 's important realize people object various wild ideas presented like congress , would best consult astronomers lovers night sky try pr stunt boost public knowledge space well , wake space becoming field human endeavor instead something look long long way away practical space projects could conceivably \( although probably \) cause lots light pollution , argued grounds , even though might open possibilities , people could vacation mars wanted really dark skies bob bunge rbunge access digex com phil fraering seems like every day find sorts stuff pgf srl02 cacs usl edu like ancient mayans televison repo man
steve bcsfse ca boeing com \( steve \) subject boeing tsto \( words chairman boeing \) reply steve bcsfse ca boeing com organization system tools lines 12 article schumach convex convex com , schumach convex com \( richard schumacher \) writes description boeing study two staged using supersonic ramjets deleted words , boeing seriously thinking reliable , less expensive access orbit like fool around exotic airplanes , means boeing something called foresight vision boeing became success today working call exotic airplanes
gene jackatak raider net \( gene wright \) subject nasa 's mars observer image face mars \? organization jack 's amazing cockroach capitalist ventures lines 12 theories aside , \( watching though \) \) , nasa try image region mars face \? image high resolution camera , would settle face question mean , camera pixel resolution 6 feet , 'd know whether stuff real imagination come jpl nasa folks , try image settle thing gene jackatak raider net \( gene wright \) jackatak raider net \( 615 \) 377 5980
pgf srl03 cacs usl edu \( phil g fraering \) subject zealous shuttle critics organization univ southwestern louisiana lines 139 khayash hsc usc edu \( ken hayashida \) writes rockwell international downey , california , conjunction shuttle contractors delivered world 's important revolutionary space vehicle ha ! one cannot argue fact flies , lands , reusable watch flies lands gets rebuilt opinion , appropriate specifications program 's told us back '70 's test program start , logical follow x 15 program later x series lifting bodies 1 n't logical follow logical follow would either russian type \( lifting bodies \) something like mmi 's space van \( boeing 's tsto , tsto military allegedly using probably cost less develop shuttle fly year \) engineering specs guys trenches develop system man , could land reliably , could goals quite visionary 1970 's , would argue challenging even today , including dc x program keep attitude , 'll couple centuries get real access space , unless another country without baggage comes along kicks ass space race recall 1 flight week specification final nasa specs space shuttle program documents , would find revealing interesting far tell , people touting 1 flight per week flight rate people capitol hill selling books general public nasa hq n't give rest program plausible n't worth money 've spent , probably lot apollo imho , political statements halls us congress engineering specs specs determined nasa dod contractors , congressmen , senators , presidents missions defined political leaders , engineering specs yes , gets sold basis political statements 're saying basically met engineering specs \( questionable , imho \) 's success , never mind could n't get funding shuttle eats engineering specs thousand years shuttle reusable space vehicle automatically qualifies engineering success could argue political success engineering wise , clearly advanced machine ever flown argue engineering technical data flight valuable shuttle justified criticized basis economics get flight data x 15 follow x 15 type vehicle much less economics engineering engineering absense economics basically physics , terms physics , shuttle looks like failure next x 15 henry wrote hs sorry , support arrange launchers goes launchers hs hope riding day moment , 's hs dc x 's hoped successors disappointed similar statements vocal support dc x program support dc x based hopes support shuttle program based record shuttle program bad record hopes shuttle program know hopes false dc x similar dissimilar experimental vehicles hopes least know n't false hopes yet support shuttle , way back n't nearly supposed 's time move something might job orbital delivery better think also important note object dc x visionary originally posted like dc x idea really hopeful 'll stunning success unfortunately , dc willing return support proven shuttle program explain folks criticize shuttle shuttle exactly guys need order learn operate dc x orbit n't want learn operate orbit launches , payload , lands n't waste payload hauling edo pallets like thing learned shuttle build launcher finally bit proven shuttle hoping tell lie enough times get someone believe \? enjoyed later postings regarding comparisons shuttle soyuz project although , may disagree method analysis probably disagree mine 8 \) think total impact shuttle program must judged scientific technical merit , schedules \( agree \? \) much science technology could done money spent shuttle spent differently \? , need stop thinking dc x shuttle mutually exclusive learn economics current budget realities united states , please thanks time phil fraering number one good faith ! convert , pgf srl02 cacs usl edu tortured demons ! anon mahen missionary
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject dc x publicity \? organization u toronto zoology lines 15 article 1993may11 bmerh85 bnr ca bnr ca writes seems bit project first time years promisses hope changing current trend massively overpriced boosting capability , lacks much publicity people involved building hardware rather writing press releases high manpower project n't spare people sitting around understand , also feeling part project management publicity good idea lot people working changing view , success svr4 resembles high speed collision henry spencer u toronto zoology svr3 sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
clements vax oxford ac uk subject u government science technolgy investment organization oxford university vax lines 16 noted us german science technology ww2 also british science technology discovery manufacture penicillin jet engines , swing wing aircraft , etc etc shipped lock stick across atlantic still suffering sort thing parochial aspects us procurement policy meiko , british parallel computer company , example , moved facilities us since way could sell stuff dave clements , oxford university astrophysics department clements uk ac ox vax eco real de dlc uk ac ox astro saint germain
keithley apple com \( craig keithley \) subject aurora gif request organization help lines 15 someone scanned artist 's rendering aurora \? , gif available somewhere \? please reply via email thanks , craig craig keithley looks could kill , probably apple computer , inc games without , war without tears keithley apple com peter gabriel , third album \( 1980 \)
stgprao st unocal com \( richard ottolini \) subject life mars organization unocal corporation lines 13 article 1993may11 438 den mmc com seale possum den mmc com \( eric h seale \) writes ca n't speak russian probes , last heard , 1997 us probe planned air bags \( seriously ! \) cushion impact hopefully , wo n't \( hit go \) jpl san gabriel aiaa session last week showed russian lander single large airbag stitches russian design pretty firm hardware due international experimenters 1 94 proposed 1997 american lander bunch airbags shaped like bunch grapes dropping desert last month may 20 kg mini rover
higgins fnalf fnal gov \( bill higgins beam jockey \) subject like dc x \( shuttle 0 defects bizarre \? dc x \? \) organization fermi national accelerator laboratory lines 90 nntp posting host fnalf fnal gov ken arguments thoughtful going big boys 're tackling henry allen sherzer doubtless chime subject operational costs , good luck , son article hsc usc edu , khayash hsc usc edu \( ken hayashida \) writes shuttle method free world orbiting large life sciences medical related packages ahem russians free world , least would politically correct contend hopeful dc x , whatever follow eventually called , perform state right , must admit skeptical ever tough make dc x succeed , turn operational orbital vehicle doubtless fail meet promised goals reason people fond 's chance , long time come , develop launch vehicle radically lower costs shuttle successor funded development , nasp away , als nls spacelifter sure hell n't gonna knock 2000 3000 per pound cost part blame must placed shuttle program consumes many annual billions , er , free world 's available space cash doubt hear many correspondents days come \( dc x attempt break vicious cycle keeping development costs low flying incremental x plane hardware 's , mind , incredibly successful already 've built complex prototype 600 days 60 would extremely skeptical could accomplished 1990s america , never mind flying thing , getting successor funded , building dc i'm sure know well launch costs basic problem expansion astronautics n't see realistic prospect beating costs , multi ton payloads , anywhere else dc flops , 'll business usual space nineties double look like seventies eighties , prospect depressing bear \( pegasus represents another assault problem different direction n't lower cost per pound offers orbital launch ten 's creating market small payloads \) read magazines 've attended last two plenty engineers paper ideas cheaper launch systems , good better ssto sign today 's world designs allowed anywhere near assembly line could change view dc x could prove following deleting things i'm going prove tonight 3 shuttle need go allow development man dc x successor strawman anybody seriously proposing \? references , please dc must developed real world funding climate , includes nasa committed continuing shuttle operations , well bird hand argument common sense tells dc flies , flies alongside shuttle , instead also , course , dc operational descendants useful wide variety jobs even man rated 4 importantly , dc x open leo scientific technical payloads dc x successor fly 10 , 000 kg payload 1m , even 5m , rather 40m costs , people able afford payloads money , fly several satellites instead one big fly multi satellite series little able fly spacecraft , instead begging ride supply demand able convince point 4 true , assuming dc makes big difference costs reason think \? \) ' ' , , ' , \) \( \) \( \) zap ! \( \) \( \) bill higgins fermi national accelerator laboratory bitnet higgins fnal bitnet internet higgins fnal fnal gov span hepnet 43011 higgins
apryan vax1 tcd ie subject urgent email nasa budget \? lines 13 nntp posting host vax1 tcd ie organization trinity college dublin lines 13 nasa 's annual budget \? year , years back nice need item fast emails top head much appreciated \( faqs vanish ! \) tony ryan , astronomy space , new international magazine , available astronomy ireland , p box 2888 , dublin 1 , ireland 6 issues \( one year sub \) uk 10 00 pounds , us 20 surface \( add us 8 airmail \) access visa mastercard accepted \( give number , expiration date , name address \) \( world's largest astro soc per capita unless know better \? 0 034 \) another notch end april 1993 ! tel 0891 88 1950 \( uk n ireland \) 1550 111 442 \( eire \) cost 48p per min
jennifer arts com \( jennifer witt \) subject space camp organization computer arts , portland oregon , usa lines 18 i'm replying someone asked information space camp brochure different schedules age , level program want know schedule \? missions 5 8 days long address huntsville alabama space science exhibit commission u space rocket center one tranquility base , huntsville , al jennifer , mean \? \?
gord jericho uucp \( gord wait mos systems vancouver design center \) subject life mars organization mos systems , inc \( vancouver design center \) lines 16 potentially dumb question prevents martian landers polluting martian environment earth based critters \? long trip cold radiation space enough completely landers \? could imagine teeny could manage get way unharmed , possibly thrive given right circumstances gord wait systems vancouver design centre uunet ! jericho ! gord gord jericho uunet uu net even days
subject math \? \? \( us govt technolgy investment kubo zariski harvard edu \( tal kubo \) organization dept math , harvard univ keywords science \? nntp posting host zariski harvard edu lines 14 greg mccolm suggested math good example inertia \( silver age \) current science math really science \? new math told us recently \? please dont flame ive taken math since 11th grade completed bc calc early go hell really new stuff going \? \? \( im flaming , honestly \) nope 're living inheritance forefathers , reading dusty old books , exchanging among small circle devotees
noao edu \( mark \) subject need help finding address keywords white sands tracking facility nntp posting host ursa noao edu organization national optical astronomy observatories , tucson , az , usa lines 7 could someone please help trying find address receiving station white sands missile range interested possible employment would like write information thanks
cam hawk oz au \( master \) subject mcelwaine faq keywords faq r e mcelwaine organization australian defence industries lines 24 sbooth lonestar utsa edu \( simon e booth \) writes article news cso uiuc edu jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu \( josh hopkins \) writes i'm sure amazes fact someone would go trouble write mcelwaine fact someone would post something repeatedly says n't posted 's moot anyway net access privileges revoked last week josh hopkins jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu find way make one attributed hannibal mcelwaine got access revoked \? finally ! ! ! ! say could n't done rid net mcelwaine , anything possible simon oh , n't worry , i'm sure 'll back !
aws iti org \( allen w sherzer \) subject shuttle 0 defects bizarre \? dc x \? organization evil geniuses better tomorrow lines 92 article hsc usc edu khayash hsc usc edu \( ken hayashida \) writes well , say \? 8 \) 've attacked beloved vehicle ! \) may offer constructive criticism , perhaps decide love vehicles use put , , think f 86 beautiful aircraft , rest assured , would n't even think flying combat today us want access space judge vehicles perform see zero defects operation many area life degree calling shuttle flight characteristics bizarre post touting dc x interesting \? dc x also similar zero defects issues \( wrong \? \) wrong dc approach failure also advantage far greater reliability reusable nature \( shuttle n't reusable , 's \) thinking dc x deploy reverse orientation supersonic speeds flip happens low speed , supersonic dc x shows flip works , work unless laws physics change much dc x redundant \? 's real question final dc 1 fully intact abort throughout entire flight upon entry example , loose 80 available thrust still land safely everything life zero defects issues times \( agree \? \) everything suffer catastrophic failure 's thing shuttle simply n't fault design , ssto doctor , error diagnosis treatment recommendations n't put patients conditions way would n't example , give patient drug monitor harmful side effects would \? dc x 's r program makes good sense , less optimistic dc x \( apparently others \) much minority dc series fails make orbit , still worthwhile effort show us exactly need build ssto , dc x still failures nature aerospace r , refering dc 1 , provide fully intact abort flight shuttle n't dc fault , shuttle n't 's successors slated passenger carrying true build passenger pallet \( fairly easy thing \) carry passengers impression visited huntington beach 's open house payload space limited man version decades away would suggest talk dc x crew original schedule operational dc 1 flying 96 shuttle method free world orbiting large life sciences medical related packages , ticket space support ignoring space reputation unreliable expensive shuttle supporters make easy opponents manned space kill could change view dc x could prove following way prove things build allen lady astor sir , husband would poison coffee ! w churchill madam , wife , would drink 35 days first flight dcx
keith stein n109 z1 permanet org \( keith stein \) subject gps launch lines 3 next gps launch scheduled june 24th origin va astronomy club 703 256 \( 1 109 118 \)
aws iti org \( allen w sherzer \) subject dc x publicity \? organization evil geniuses better tomorrow lines 17 article 1993may11 bmerh85 bnr ca bnr ca writes seems bit project first time years promisses hope changing current trend massively overpriced boosting capability , lacks much publicity may change next month least hope couple hundred journalists requested press passes test flights sustaining publicity however , problem allen lady astor sir , husband would poison coffee ! w churchill madam , wife , would drink 33 days first flight dcx
aws iti org \( allen w sherzer \) subject soyuz shuttle comparisons organization evil geniuses better tomorrow lines 27 article 1993may13 ke4zv uucp gary ke4zv uucp \( gary coffman \) writes rough guess would say 10 years shuttle delivered leo much saturn v 4 years careful define payload propulsion spacecraft structure often shuttle lifts satellites upper stages yet still consider payload ten saturn flights 4 years delivered leo roughly 50 shuttle flights 10 years course saturn lifted shuttle , 's cost orbit year dollars higher pretty much terms cost pound saturn would cost 2 , 000 per pound \( development costs ignored \) five times cheaper shuttle allen lady astor sir , husband would poison coffee ! w churchill madam , wife , would drink 33 days first flight dcx
thierry uucp \( thierry lach \) subject henry spencer anyway \? reply thierry uucp \( thierry lach \) organization none lines 32 cam hawk oz au \( master \) writes leland stanford edu \( aaron \) writes tracked sci space quite , questions mysterious figure called henry spencer anything going space community , seems know questions somewhat cheek 1 \) sci space hobby job \? 1 \) ever eat sleep \? 3 \) u toronto zoology department conduct space research \? use account \? curious aaron well , henry spencer also responsible parts , internet related things quite guy \) henry ! c question comes frequently enough faq thierry lach ! thierry mi org include std disclaimer sufficiently superior technology magic
dietz cs rochester edu \( paul dietz \) subject life mars organization university rochester lines 27 article exodus eng sun com eng sun com \( john \) writes new information discovered recently microscopic fossils found old rocks theory life old must destroyed periodic intense meteorite bombardments feature early solar system theory life originated earth multiple times \( multiple meteorite bombardments \) , therefore conditions creation life cannot unlikely badly reported news evidence signs life found old rock planet events rather , argument life arose shortly last event , must easily formed inference life originated destroyed , evidence however , even argument flawed could well origin life requires specific conditions \( say , certain composition atmosphere \) last long , perhaps life formed early would chance , likely life would originate conditions paul f dietz dietz cs rochester edu
zen holonet net \( dick \) subject looking planet maps keywords maps nntp posting host zen holonet net organization holonet national internet access system 510 704 1058 modem lines 24 jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu \( josh hopkins \) writes drake edu \( tim spock larson \) writes get maps mars , venus , terrestrial bodies \? still use old national geographic maps apollo viking eras people ask would us geological survey maps everything unfortunately , address office middle left us coast road menlo park , ca \( 415 \) 329 josh hopkins jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu find way make one attributed hannibal dick editor , independent raid report \( 510 \) 938
mcimail com \( collective \) subject near miss asteroids x added forwarded space digest organization via international space university original sender isu vacation venari cs cmu edu distribution sci lines 11 chance answered request neo asteroids last two days please send directly mistake deleted instead read space request messages thanks sorry harry g science technology editor access news network mcimail com
tombaker bu edu \( thomas baker \) subject soyuz shuttle comparisons reply tombaker bu edu \( thomas baker \) organization thomas baker , unlimited lines 22 article ofa123 fidonet org david anderman ofa123 fidonet org writes revealing comparison shuttle soyuz cost comparisons apples oranges maximus 2 01wb like statement , though reasons cost comparisons depend lot whether two options similar , becomes revealing consider differences soyuz launch long exposure facility \? course shuttle take television relay leo year 's end \? almost certainly , russians pretty good making space accessible tight schedule comparing ss points two active space launcher work platform resources , similarities differences direct competition , may get see market economics come play tombaker employer 's opinions self employed
tombaker bu edu \( thomas baker \) subject another sf irritation relieved ! doctor vindicated reply tombaker world std com \( thomas baker \) organization thomas baker , unlimited lines 35 article schumach convex convex com schumach convex com \( richard schumacher \) writes reverse polarity ! crap always bugged hell , , found actual , live , real life example working ! quote aviation week space technology 2 july 1990 , page 25 colonel charles f , speaking problem fuel bubble formation titan 4 engines said engineers nasa 's jet propulsion laboratory run problem suggested air force look effect 50 decomposition fix , flown three times without incident , reverse outlet portions hot gas cooler ! , life art discussion sts tether experiment ran forward , would suck energy earth 's magnetic field , trivially slowing shuttle could also run backward ran electricity tether way , would trivially propelled shuttle faster even better example comes mind 's electronics guy , someone like craig lancaster ten years ago wrote invention could take light detector , run current hundred times rating , would glow got legal rights design combination fiber optic receiver turned basic unit att 's \( think \) plan bring brazil 's communications system 21st century \( article mostly legal company eventually got well compensated invention \) tombaker \( yes 's real name \) \( employer 's opinion 's \) \( self employed \)
pgf srl03 cacs usl edu \( phil g fraering \) subject henry spencer anyway \? organization univ southwestern louisiana lines 15 someone named hansk asked pictures well , archive format ftp uu net henry spencer 's picture somewhere , along several thousand others n't remember path , though easy find remember , though , seems use internet uucp addresses phil fraering number one good faith ! convert , pgf srl02 cacs usl edu tortured demons ! anon mahen missionary
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject vandenberg launches \? organization u toronto zoology lines 10 article 1993may15 mri com mri com \( paul carroll \) writes know phone numbers , etc get kennedy canaveral launch information , equivalent way finding launches vandenberg \? bear mind lot vandenberg launch traffic military least semi secret n't interested beforehand svr4 resembles high speed collision henry spencer u toronto zoology svr3 sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject henry spencer anyway \? organization u toronto zoology lines 16 article 1993may15 aie nl hansk aie nl \( hans \) writes god ! dare posting ! posed questions mr spencer time ago email unfortunately never received response apologies mail probably pile arrived got sick month ago reply appear eventually , really would like see interview mr spencer magazine \( photograph ! \) , even better tv program \( ! want ! \) far , none \( unless count interview amateur history netnews , may disqualified tac 's budget n't run reproducing photos \) svr4 resembles high speed collision henry spencer u toronto zoology svr3 sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
colby bu bio bu edu \( chris colby \) subject life earth \( elsewhere \) distribution sci organization animal lines 55 article 1993may13 julian uwo ca jdnicoll prism ccs uwo ca \( james davis nicoll \) writes article 1 cs cmu edu 18084tm msu edu \( tom \) writes evidence trend towards greater species diversity time \? see going right major extinction event , n't clear diversity 10k years ago necessarily greater 600 million years ago well , several bursts species diversity think explosions resulted vast increase animal diversity likewise , one two punch , number marine animals rose steadily \( \) time high \( \) prior spread humans \( \) biggest exception k \( bye bye \) extinction \( \) 800 families also , plants arose green land sweeps wet environments first , \( evolved tissues \) took territory evolved \( 1 \) eventually \( mostly \) replaced \( pines like \) \( 2 \) \( mostly \) displaced \( plants dominant plant group planet \( 3 \) also radiated greatly invasion land \( 1 \) around \( 200 families \) \( 2 \) around \( maybe 250 families \) \( 3 \) starting \( rising 600 families currently \) 's unclear \( least \) max equilibrium number species earth hold \( \) ever hit past could \( warning speculation alert \) diversity never reached peak mass happen often enough keep total number \( \) would depend great deal fragmented specific see cowen 's book history life technical run , well , like title sez , history life see , wilson 's diversity life view centered current ecology \( imho \) best popular biology book \( hell , 'll say \) time james nicoll follow ups chris colby email colby bu bio bu edu 'my boy , ' said , 'you descended long line determined , , microscopic champions every one ' kurt vonnegut galapagos
prb access digex net \( pat \) subject interesting dc x cost anecdote organization express access online communications usa lines 13 nntp posting host access digex net 's assuming could get built course , would probably sport cruise missile racks , missile tubes , bomb points , extra drop tanks , full suite , terrain following radar stealth materials might fly , technology demonstrator require actual flight \) pat
prb access digex net \( pat \) subject like dc x \( shuttle 0 defects bizarre \? dc x \? \) organization express access online communications usa lines 11 nntp posting host access digex net article zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) writes \( however , agree richard 're planning short missions , may worth trouble providing anything urine disposal rig \) n't know c 5 's , c 130 's regularly used medium haul personnel transport army , funnel garden hose aft female personnel hate long trips box cars pat
shafer rigel dfrf nasa gov \( mary shafer \) subject henry spencer anyway \? reply hansk aie nl 's message sat , 15 may 1993 01 45 54 gmt organization nasa dryden , edwards , cal lines 17 sat , 15 may 1993 01 45 54 gmt , hansk aie nl \( hans \) said hans somebody replied whether space shuttle connected hans usenet course main flow information would , hans unless henry spencer would aboard , case main hans flow information would gene miya says henry never go shuttle payload bay n't big enough chocolate chip cookies henry dryden , looking pretty sr f , even though n't much cookie space guess figured could manage short flight mary shafer dod 0362 kotfr nasa dryden flight research facility , edwards , ca shafer rigel dfrf nasa gov course n't speak nasa mig six better mig unknown us fighter pilot
prb access digex net \( pat \) subject shuttle organization express access online communications usa lines 26 nntp posting host access digex net everything correct , highly valuable , discovered ww2 proved amazing effect without human toxicity 's immediate administration showed immediate dramatic results solving problems previously fatal although initially enormously expensive culture , within 3 years , price fallen least two orders magnitude , within 10 years , much expensive aspirin penicillin also usable amazingly wide class infections drug passing fda approval promised amazing results toxic shock , rapidly fatal disease consumed enormous amounts funding testing developement , however works less 1 5 times administration costs 2 , 000 per administration promise reduction manufacturing cost drug thus costs 10 , 000 per useful case , implicated slight increase mortality patients would dare compare shuttle , pat
prb access digex net \( pat \) subject dc x publicity organization express access online communications usa lines 11 distribution sci nntp posting host access digex net dc x1 , make landing teh 50 yard line show years superbowl abc reporters , news event pat
prb access digex net \( pat \) subject dc x publicity organization express access online communications usa lines 4 distribution sci nntp posting host access digex net even better make pete conrad martian suit , get ou throw football refs
nmsu edu \( stephen horan \) subject white sands dc x x added forwarded space digest organization via international space university original sender isu vacation venari cs cmu edu distribution sci lines 20 interesting note past days' believe poor old new mexico capable hosting commercial space launch business many reasons , , front lines see reason political referred day intended effect state new mexico establish start necessary government infrastructure back commercial space port commanding general wsmr full support dual use facilities wsmr location also strategic advantages form necessary infrastructure controlled air space support project folks involved done traditional aerospace equivalent vapor ware inviting folks kick non existent tires merely job prepare launch , n't think nothing happened interactions folks , get impression want set firm , believable launch date based vehicle readiness fiction plug space calendar believe happen summer n't worry , locals planning let everyone know occur stephen horan nmsu edu
fox graphics cs nyu edu \( david fox \) subject space marketing boycott nntp posting host graphics cs nyu edu organization courant institute mathematical sciences lines 132 new york times sunday may 9th week review section report group called space marketing atlanta , georgia planning put one mile wide reflective earth orbiting satelite appear large bright moon carry sort advertising editorial times following tuesday others upset \? feel global boycott anyone involved project would good idea perhaps could made illegal various countries around world \? others agree \? david relevant messages found net webb hks com \( peter webb \) newsgroups sci space subject stopping sky vandals date 13 may 1993 21 17 22 gmt organization hks , inc distribution world n't want see space marketing put orbiting billboards , write , call , tell might also write space marketing reached attn mike lawson public relations dept space marketing 1495 rd , suite 600 , ga \( 404 \) 442 peter webb webb hks com , karlsson sorensen , inc voice 401 727 4200 1080 main st , ri fax 401 727 4208 alternatively , could try find clients tell feel newsgroups sci astro , sci space , sci misc , sci environment , talk environment klaes verga enet dec com \( larry klaes \) subject light pollution \( space ads \) information keywords light pollution , advertisements organization digital equipment corporation date thu , 13 may 1993 20 45 36 gmt dave crawford \( crawford noao edu \) , executive director international dark sky association \( ida \) , sent information write regards proposed billboards sky asked post karen brown center study connecticut avenue , suite 300 washington , c u telephone 202 797 fax 202 265 please note involvement whatsoever csc larry klaes klaes verga enet dec com ! decwrl ! verga enet dec com ! klaes klaes verga dec decwrl enet dec com klaes verga enet dec com uunet uu net universe , nothing ! h g wells ejasa editor , astronomical society atlantic kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov newsgroups sci space subject vandalizing sky date 10 may 93 21 51 11 gmt distribution sci organization nasa jsc gm2 , space shuttle program office x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 x posted jsc nasa gov f baube tm \( flb flb optiplan fi \) wrote 's roughly akin saying let 's let strip mine grand canyon strip mining boldly go strip mining technology gone , mining means profits , profits mean technological advance ment , advancement means prosperity , pros means happiness , hell grand canyon space advertisement low earth orbit short term order years orbit decays \( higher orbits last longer \) advertisers certainly aware environmental aspects advertising fred 's argument roughly akin saying 's bad cut trees , n't advertise newspapers think , fred picture space billboard large inflatable structure , filled bio foam instead gas space debris orbits , thus cleaning space environment bringing pause refreshes time large drag coefficient , de orbit safely burning within year embedded foam structure small entry vehicle , burn entry contains electronics propulsion system \( may used \) well space science experiments proposed built high school students advertiser sponsored science advertisers buy time billboard , whose surface made tiny mirrors controlled avionics package avionics reconfigure mirrors reflect different messages different parts globe clever programming allows different languages every country orbital night , mirrors turn perpendicular surface , small lights revealed lights spell messages see ken jenks , nasa jsc gm2 , space shuttle program office kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov \( 713 \) 483 4368 men planet earth first set foot upon moon july 1969 , came peace mankind
redin lysator liu se \( magnus redin \) subject space marketing would wonderfull organization lysator acs linkoping university lines 69 fox graphics cs nyu edu \( david fox \) writes new york times sunday may 9th week review section report group called space marketing atlanta , georgia planning put one mile wide reflective earth orbiting satelite appear large bright moon carry sort advertising editorial times following tuesday realy like idea , would wonderfull see big bright satelite night sky even promise try buy whatever product advertises help project please write space marketing encourage project sadly enough money invest space marketing reached attn mike lawson public relations dept space marketing 1495 rd , suite 600 , ga \( 404 \) 442 space advertisement low earth orbit short term order years orbit decays \( higher orbits last longer \) advertisers certainly aware environmental aspects advertising fred 's argument roughly akin saying 's bad cut trees , n't advertise newspapers think , fred picture space billboard large inflatable structure , filled bio foam instead gas space debris orbits , thus cleaning space environment bringing pause refreshes time large drag coefficient , de orbit safely burning within year embedded foam structure small entry vehicle , burn entry contains electronics propulsion system \( may used \) well space science experiments proposed built high school students advertiser sponsored science advertisers buy time billboard , whose surface made tiny mirrors controlled avionics package avionics reconfigure mirrors reflect different messages different parts globe clever programming allows different languages every country orbital night , mirrors turn perpendicular surface , small lights revealed lights spell messages see ken jenks , nasa jsc gm2 , space shuttle program office kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov \( 713 \) 483 4368 men planet earth first set foot upon moon july 1969 , came peace mankind magnus redin lysator academic computer society redin lysator liu se mail magnus redin , gen , 582 51 link ping , sweden phone sweden \( 0 \) 13 \( answering machine \) \( 0 \) 120
vis world std com \( tom r courtney \) subject space marketing would wonderfull organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 17 sense , think folks think idea wonderful , folks want boycott anyone anything project right , think space advertising interesting idea , someone wants try , power however , company may discover cost launch cost advertising , company ill would lose revenue advertising would gain might decide bow project got incensed read carl sagan called idea abomination n't think word means thinks children starving richest country world abomination ad agency worst poor taste tom courtney
wcsbeau superior carleton ca \( opirg \) subject space marketing would wonderfull organization carleton university , ottawa , canada lines 19 article world std com vis world std com \( tom r courtney \) writes got incensed read carl sagan called idea abomination n't think word means thinks children starving richest country world abomination ad agency worst poor taste tom courtney n't think idea means think everyone earth subject ad agency 's poor taste abomination \( abomination n loathing odious degrading habit act object disgust \( oxford concise dictionary \) \) maybe n't mind every part life saturated commercials , many us loathe 'd rather beauty night sky always marred giant billboard , 'll bet idea virtually sacrilegious astronomer like sagan reid cooper
ajayshah almaak usc edu \( ajay shah \) subject space marketing would wonderfull organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 33 nntp posting host almaak usc edu wcsbeau superior carleton ca \( opirg \) writes n't think idea means think everyone earth subject ad agency 's poor taste abomination well , already suffer street n't watch tv , free commercials , want go b cannot escape beer ads us loathe 'd rather beauty night sky always marred giant billboard , 'll bet idea virtually sacrilegious astronomer like sagan think right time stop proposal idea goes , 's thin end wedge soon companies larger , , billboards sky would n't want world decades sky looks like las vegas would really make sad coca cola company want paint moon red white \( well , moon , moon jupiter \) want name galaxy draw line \? historically mankind good drawing fine lines i'm normally extremely enthusiastic forms resource allocation space research think 's important investment possible mankind long run way get money ans ajay shah , \( 213 \) 749 , ajayshah usc edu
brian quake sylmar ca us subject u government science technolgy investment organization quake public access , san fernando valley , ca \( 818 \) 362 lines 46 article pgf srl03 cacs usl edu pgf srl03 cacs usl edu \( phil g fraering \) writes mccolm darwin math usf edu \( gregory mccolm \) writes article rice edu conor owlnet rice edu \( conor frederick \) writes article eng usf edu mccolm darwin math usf edu \( gregory mccolm \) writes huh \? please state criteria selecting greatest philosopher title p ever read nietzsche \? greatest likely remembered five hundred years hence must admit makes many personal favorites great make comment except remark immanuel kant interpret cryptic remark please people appended remark , kant , thankfully n't read enough either comment , although everyone tells read would say greatest philosopher title would go plato since whole enterprise philosophy essentially defined although got answers wrong , definitively identify important questions think descartes said philosophy footnote plato choose philosopher made important advances human knowledge lifetime , 's simple aristotle much case many simply refer philosopher regarding nietzsche , 's one entertaining , although since ideas fragmented \( since life cut short \) doubtful influence philosopher likely extensive 500 years 'll probably still reading 500 years though modern philosophers , would say kant influential since strong influence almost everyone came \( unfortunately , maintained errors amplified time \) would say influential american philosopher would dewey question philosopher highly regarded 500 years , may well ayn rand \( every important respect american , born russia \) guess remains seen brian
wats scicom alphacdc com \( bruce watson \) subject life mars organization alpha science computer network , denver , co lines 10 article teradata com swf elsegundoca ncr com writes 're fred rejects big bang , proposes infinitely old universe \( really \) , model life always starts given planet outer space always life somewhere n't fred abandon steady state theory \? bruce watson \( wats scicom alphacdc com \)
gary ke4zv uucp \( gary coffman \) subject philosophy quest boldly \? reply gary ke4zv uucp \( gary coffman \) organization destructive testing systems lines 104 article gap caltech edu palmer cco caltech edu \( david palmer \) writes gary ke4zv uucp \( gary coffman \) writes lack skeleton means muscles actively resist gravity times land rather supplying balancing forces means much energy would required creature function bones also supply leverage points pushing lateral movement 's n't find large active creatures land hydraulics make rigid tubes energy required support hydraulics also allow creature produce large forces weak muscles , using principle hydraulic jack rather lever one yes , things 's true pressurized tube somewhat rigid tube , even 2000 psi levels hydraulic hose bend rather easily , though 's straight strength high , 's resistance increase practically nil member , 's doubt hydraulic leverage exists nature tree roots example given time shatter concrete pressure increases 's interesting note , land , creatures either two legged 4 legged , tiny insects 6 8 legs , never 3 legged , though would stable configuration argued 2 legged creatures 3 legged specific number limbs creature accident evolution , hard make changes structures panda thumb plus many fingers ancestors \( five \? \) hand , thumb modified rather modified finger , extra fingers much common extra limbs , especially fully functional ones 3 \? n't think take view tail limb , monkeys 5 think tail different kind structure , grossly enlarged case kangaroo , primarily still instrument balance rather n't know much panda thumbs , 'll ask \? considerations surface volume relationships would seem dictate active complex creatures stay size range similar see us 6 inch tall intelligent aliens seem unlikely , much larger elephant ca n't lemur intelligent \? yes , know mythical beast produced putting head another dinosaur , far space aliens also mythical well wo n't say flat ca n't intelligent , 'll bring couple lines argument bear try show n't think 's likely first let say say intelligent mean complex behaviors response novel situations level , greater , human tool use tool building ie assuming suitable manipulators present creature allow alter 's enviroment planned way , 's certainly universal complete definition intelligence , suffice technological alien one knows exactly makes brain capable thought , 's generally accepted one criteria certain level complexity generally determined number neuron cells , creature size lemur would n't enough neurons support complex thought argument considerably less clear case dinosaur 's room large brain , though indication one ever developed one reason may true speed messages trigger neurons require time propagate makes difficult highly complex central brain coordinate movements large creatures 's little selection pressure brains instead , simpler distributed network evolves n't rule intelligent dinosaurs , points direction arguments tiny creature like lemur needs eat frequently 's internal heat rapidly lost due 's high surface volume ratio contend creature must spend 's time energy feeding wo n't time develop exercise intelligence argument may somewhat weak dinosaur 's problem reverse , must moderate 's heat production 's high volume surface ratio makes tend retain waste heat i'm assuming certain temperature range optimal chemical reasons productive neuron function creatures would tend need maintain regulated temperature range near humans carbon based tends rule cold blooded creatures potential homes intelligence people contend dinosaurs may warm blooded creature size , 's activity levels would restrained would prone generate internal steam explosion waste heat whales similar size , reject heat ocean , much efficient sink air suspect intelligence manifest , certain degree activity environment necessary ie monkey curiousity doubt large dinosaur would capable much activity gary gary coffman ke4zv make , gatech ! wa4mei ! ke4zv ! gary destructive testing systems break uunet ! rsiatl ! ke4zv ! gary 534 shannon way guaranteed ! emory ! kd4nc ! ke4zv ! gary lawrenceville , ga 30244
prb access digex net \( pat \) subject like dc x \( shuttle 0 defects bizarre \? dc x \? \) organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 26 nntp posting host access digex net article 1993may13 mksol dseg ti com mccall mksol dseg ti com \( fred j mccall 575 3539 \) writes hmmm sure 's required ships probably much , since ship goes n't hurt many people ship invested plane spacecraft goes , make quite nasty mess ground , land inappropriate place considering magnitude loss life castle disasters , ca n't believe fred besides breaks close harbor , kiss quite lot population thing chemical know coast guard makes mandatory safety equipment checks use excuse make searches , without warrants suspect , commercial craft need certificate least similiar scope air worthiness certificate dot pat
prb access digex net \( pat \) subject excess shuttle criticism shuttle 0 defects bizarre \? dc organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 17 nntp posting host access digex net article stephens ngis stephens geod emr ca \( dave stephenson \) writes ' went mention aviation found adjustable tool box fired adjustable trying fit nuts , fits none properly , damages demanding environment air adjustable wrench rightly considered lethal instrument dave , recall air craft safety wires important , bolt face bad shape replaced another 30 , aircraft grade bolt see adjustable eating profit , lives \? pat
prb access digex net \( pat \) subject sdio ! organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 6 nntp posting host access digex net mention liberal presidents , nixon , ford , reagan , bush nothing support true commercial space activities pat
prb access digex net \( pat \) subject near miss asteroids \( q \) organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 4 distribution sci nntp posting host access digex net project arizona pat
fcrary ucsu colorado edu \( frank crary \) subject space marketing would wonderfull nntp posting host ucsu colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 29 article fph cunews carleton ca wcsbeau superior carleton ca \( opirg \) writes n't think idea means think everyone earth subject ad agency 's poor taste abomination \( abomination n loathing odious degrading habit act object disgust \( oxford concise dictionary \) \) maybe n't mind every part life saturated commercials , many us loathe 's moot point step door go anywhere \( except possibly mailbox \) subject ad agency 's 'd rather beauty night sky always marred giant billboard , 'll bet idea virtually sacrilegious astronomer like sagan i'm sure sagan considers sacrilegious , would n't doubtfull credibility astronomer modern , ground based , visible light astronomy \( proposed orbiting billboards would upset \) already dying field opacity distortions caused atmosphere driven field use radio , far infrared space based telescopes case , bright point light passing field n't ruin observations case , thousands existing satellites would already done \( might seem bright eyes , far astronomy concerned , extremely bright \) frank crary cu boulder
dempsey stsci edu subject hst servicing mission scheduled 11 days lines 46 organization space telescope science institute distribution na article str access digex net , prb access digex net \( pat \) writes article 1993may14 1 stsci edu dempsey stsci edu writes real world ca n't science like politics well , unfortunately good pr keep coming know makes rocket ships fly \? funding , makes fly bucks , buck rogers \) ok , proven saw right stuff however , said , takes politics pr keep bucks coming politics , bucks , buck rogers think missing point agency gathered data something tax dollars spent , data property people us government government may charge recover cost , may charge maintain data , cannot claim data proprietary , unless classified national security data yes may true case science data coming spacecraft stuff operations however , still stuff regarding regular operation belongs company ever legal right keeping mean everything swept umbrella company data live road nih run studies time go library raw data study done bring roll quarters wait year i'm saying guys n't internal rules , supported us law safeguard internal company data indeed supported us law dempsey
fcrary ucsu colorado edu \( frank crary \) subject space marketing would wonderfull nntp posting host ucsu colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 50 article ovf almaak usc edu ajayshah almaak usc edu \( ajay shah \) writes idea goes , 's thin end wedge soon companies larger , , billboards sky would n't want world decades sky looks like las vegas would really make sad think moment technology required time could make earth 's sky look like las vegas , people could afford go moon round trip costs 500 kg moon would 5000 kg low earth advertising orbit roughly cost smallish billboard , therefore ads become common place , would low price night sky lunar trip would still pristine 's always problem get away civilization really find natural scenery 100 years ago , usually n't take trip 5 miles today , people would go 100 miles ever get point billboards orbit , essentially means place earth still wild may may good thing , orbital billboards n't problem symptom growing , densely populated civilization banning ads save view night sky , time ads could become widespread probably trouble finding place without street lights , see stars coca cola company want paint moon red white \( well , moon , moon jupiter \) ad moon jupiter would rather pointless , since need telescope see however , 'd love see get publicity could coca cola io orbital mapping probe want name galaxy already , extent iau allows names derived sponsors patrons scientific research money university astronomy program , one galactic astronomers could easily get newly discovered galaxy named frank crary cu boulder
alexia lis uiuc edu \( barbara \) subject henry spencer anyway \? organization university illinois urbana lines 30 1993may15 aie nl hansk aie nl \( hans \) writes article 1993may12 leland stanford edu leland stanford edu \( aaron \) writes tracked sci space quite , questions mysterious figure called henry spencer anything going space community , seems know questions somewhat cheek 1 \) sci space hobby job \? 1 \) ever eat sleep \? 3 \) u toronto zoology department conduct space research \? use account \? curious god ! dare posting ! posed questions mr spencer time ago email unfortunately never received response well , imho \( nobody net user \) henry spencer sci kibo alt rec could wrong \( anybody mention \) kitten librarian k kitten k barbara ann alexia lis uiuc edu life 's soap opera , n't \? easy gg
fox graphics cs nyu edu \( david fox \) subject space marketing would wonderfull reply fcrary ucsu colorado edu 's message sun , 16 may 1993 14 51 59 gmt nntp posting host graphics cs nyu edu organization courant institute mathematical sciences ovf almaak usc edu 1993may16 3100 ucsu colorado edu lines 43 article 1993may16 3100 ucsu colorado edu fcrary ucsu colorado edu \( frank crary \) writes article ovf almaak usc edu ajayshah almaak usc edu \( ajay shah \) writes idea goes , 's thin end wedge soon companies larger , , billboards sky would n't want world decades sky looks like las vegas would really make sad think moment technology required time could make earth 's sky look like las vegas , people could afford go moon round trip costs 500 kg moon would 5000 kg low earth advertising orbit roughly cost smallish billboard , therefore ads become common place , would low price nonsense like saying time commercials television become commonplace every citizen hour long nationally broadcast tv program 's always problem get away civilization really find natural scenery 100 years ago , usually n't take trip 5 miles today , people would go 100 miles ever get point billboards orbit , essentially means place earth still wild may may good thing , orbital billboards n't problem symptom growing , densely populated civilization banning ads save view night sky , time ads could become widespread probably trouble finding place without street lights , see stars rest post strange already really bad n't really matter gets worse try figure really arguing \( kneejerk anti \? \) david p passing effect visible light astronomy object bright full moon
mckay alcor concordia ca \( john mckay \) subject math \? \? \( us govt technolgy investment keywords science \? nntp posting host alcor concordia ca organization concordia university , montreal , canada lines 21 mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com \( mark wilson \) writes report called science order , 's probably , however , somewhat experimental science exploration fractals , strange , artificial life whether important insights gained experiments unknown , tend change shape mostly viewed abstract deductive field experiments mathematics \? well look new journal journal experimental mathematics several fields editorial board want \? try klaus peters boston david epstein warwick deep ideas simple odd groups even even
wb8foz skybridge scl cwru edu \( david lesher \) subject space marketing would wonderfull organization nrk clinic habitual netnews abusers beltway annex lines 11 reply wb8foz skybridge scl cwru edu \( david lesher \) nntp posting host skybridge scl cwru edu others said coca cola company want paint moon red white \( well , moon , moon jupiter \) reminds old arthur c clarke story coca cola ad stashed inside experiment host host coast coast wb8foz skybridge scl cwru edu one talk host 's close \( 301 \) 56 linux unless host \( n't close \) pob 1433 busy , hung dead 20915 1433
pgf srl03 cacs usl edu \( phil g fraering \) subject u government science technolgy investment organization univ southwestern louisiana lines 24 brian quake sylmar ca us writes question philosopher highly regarded 500 years , may well ayn rand \( every important respect american , born russia \) guess remains seen 1 please take sci space 2 ayn rand born russia , educated lot philosophy reflects european education reaction certian events russia lived 've heard extent division modern philosophy continental british american schools , rand belongs former terms methodology et al , even though trying say things would belong latter school e trapped language kant , even though trying say \( times \) much different things phil fraering number one good faith ! convert , pgf srl02 cacs usl edu tortured demons ! anon mahen missionary
head cfa harvard edu \( jonathan mcdowell \) subject sts 57 inclination \? organization smithsonian astrophysical observatory , cambridge , , usa lines 11 article 1993may14 1 vax1 tcd ie , apryan vax1 tcd ie primary payload spacehab 1 1 r inclination 57 degrees seen elsewhere inclination 28 degrees correct \? hmmm atlantis left 28 degree orbit retrieving going really fun fly 57 degrees torque canadarm ! \) jonathan
ghelf violet berkeley edu \( \) subject soyuz shuttle comparisons organization university california , berkeley lines 11 nntp posting host violet berkeley edu guys talking soviet shuttle \? 's soyuz , 's called means snow storm \( least 's call russian tv \) gavin uc berkeley political science berkeley stanford program soviet studies ghelf violet berkeley edu
gary ke4zv uucp \( gary coffman \) subject math \? \? \( us govt technolgy investment keywords science \? reply gary ke4zv uucp \( gary coffman \) organization destructive testing systems lines 23 article ncratl atlantaga ncr com mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com \( mark wilson \) writes 1993may13 ke4zv uucp gary ke4zv uucp \( gary coffman \) writes , however , somewhat experimental science exploration fractals , strange , artificial life whether important insights gained experiments unknown , tend change shape mostly viewed abstract deductive field experiments mathematics \? nowadays , usually computer theory predicted numeric discoveries listed one yet write algorithm predict precise behavior precise level evolution remains experimenters gather data behavior gary gary coffman ke4zv make , gatech ! wa4mei ! ke4zv ! gary destructive testing systems break uunet ! rsiatl ! ke4zv ! gary 534 shannon way guaranteed ! emory ! kd4nc ! ke4zv ! gary lawrenceville , ga 30244
ez012344 hamlet ucdavis edu \( dan herrin \) subject space marketing boycott organization uc davis lines 9 space ad proposed undoubtedly thing come marketing pipe years , best reason star wars killer satellite system dan
ez012344 hamlet ucdavis edu \( dan herrin \) subject space marketing would wonderfull organization uc davis lines 14 article world std com vis world std com \( tom r courtney \) writes sense , think folks think idea wonderful , got incensed read carl sagan called idea abomination n't think word means thinks children starving richest country world abomination ad agency worst poor taste also abomination somebody would spend money space advertising children starving \? perhaps redistribution wealth would help dan
richard cs arizona edu \( richard j \) subject space marketing would wonderfull organization u arizona cs dept , tucson lines 6 see across evening sky space rent
gfk39017 uxa cso uiuc edu \( george f krumins \) subject space marketing would wonderfull organization university illinois urbana lines 52 fcrary ucsu colorado edu \( frank crary \) writes article fph cunews carleton ca wcsbeau superior carleton ca \( opirg \) writes n't think idea means think everyone earth subject ad agency 's poor taste abomination \( abomination n loathing odious degrading habit act object disgust \( oxford concise dictionary \) \) maybe n't mind every part life saturated commercials , many us loathe i'm sure sagan considers sacrilegious , would n't doubtfull credibility astronomer modern , ground based , visible light astronomy \( proposed orbiting billboards would upset \) already dying field opacity distortions caused atmosphere driven field use radio , far infrared space based telescopes case , bright point light passing field n't ruin observations case , thousands existing satellites would already done \( might seem bright eyes , far astronomy concerned , extremely bright \) frank crary cu boulder tell people run 10 meter keck telescope , astronomers engineers working gemini twin 8 meter telescope project took 7 years build keck building keck ii according december 1992 sky telescope , second 10 meter eye convert facility telescope double light gathering power ability resolve headlights car 25 , 000 kilometers away japan 's 8 3 meter subaru telescope soon join keck kea telescopes work infrared , yes , visible light telescopes ! n't heard anything adaptive optics \? lot research done star wars funding , shared astronomers shows great promise soon , probably within years , even largest telescopes able resolve theoretical limit despite distortions atmosphere say visible light astronomy already dying field pure hokum use logic things already bad , n't matter gets worse absurd maybe common sense logic dying fields george krumins pufferfish observatory universe origin gfk39017 uxa cso uiuc edu two colliding home memorial telescope
pgf srl03 cacs usl edu \( phil g fraering \) subject space marketing would wonderfull organization univ southwestern louisiana lines 50 cc uregina ca writes phil , point well taken still sad idea i'm worried concern though , number reasons nothing space advertising \( number reasons probably doomed fail financial grounds \) \( 've reading \( writing \) thread since way back sci space \) starters , n't think piece light pollution apparatus would bright full moon seems bit propaganda part opponents , wishful thinking part proponents second , charge ruining night sky permanently levelled projects , either 1 \) n't light pollution significantly , 2 \) light pollution target area may may recognize 1 solar power sattelites think josh hopkins actually math , showing sps 's n't bright , ending two months opposition part dark sky activists various types 2 mainly projects like orbiting mirror cis tested recently slightly worrisome , 'd like point significant scattering light outside target area one mirrors would wasted far project would concerned , something project like would work anyway given likely targets , n't think 's going much outcry inhabitants much dark sky northern cis winter , doubt 'll find many activists demanding natural sky back anything , 'll probably inside , stripped buck naked front uv lamp , making sure 'll get enough vitamin day mirror experiments n't something 're advertising think build one , 'll one things people affected areas think could n't lived without doubt anyone 's going really able convince stop phil fraering number one good faith ! convert , pgf srl02 cacs usl edu tortured demons ! anon mahen missionary
pgf srl03 cacs usl edu \( phil g fraering \) subject space marketing would wonderfull organization univ southwestern louisiana lines 37 uxa cso uiuc edu \( david nash \) writes 're talking orbiting ad , little point light puts streak two photograph clear anything used advertisement going bit larger point source even clear 's previous post topic makes clear message id fox graphics nyu edu sender notes cmcl2 nyu edu \( notes person \) nntp posting host graphics cs nyu edu organization courant institute mathematical sciences date sun , 16 may 1993 03 30 05 gmt lines 132 new york times sunday may 9th week review section report group called space marketing atlanta , georgia planning put one mile wide reflective earth orbiting satelite appear large bright moon carry sort advertising description 've read , 's prob going bright jupiter anything else probably hype opponents wishful thinking sponsors could something bright full moon soon , cheap , cis would done already phil fraering number one good faith ! convert , pgf srl02 cacs usl edu tortured demons ! anon mahen missionary
prefect cc bellcore com \( , \) subject space marketing boycott organization bellcore , livingston , nj distribution usa lines 16 article ucdavis edu ez012344 hamlet ucdavis edu \( dan herrin \) writes space ad proposed undoubtedly thing come marketing pipe years , best reason star wars killer satellite system dan n't activist guys cut misc invest thread \? n't offer shares sale yet tony cc bellcore com
tfv0 ns1 cc lehigh edu \( theodore f \) subject space marketing would wonderfull organization lehigh university lines 37 article ucdavis edu , ez012344 hamlet ucdavis edu \( dan herrin \) writes deleted also abomination somebody would spend money space advertising children starving \? perhaps redistribution wealth would help dan flame \( really \) , thats abominable viewpoint \( subject abominations \) followed wealth \( way , ist democrats trying \) , everyone would starve short order organize fair distribution depends every \( wo \) man 's altruism \( say black market anyone \? \) , current methods resource production entirely energy dependant enough sources cheap capital \( aside human capital \) allow us stop looking space excellent source materials directly , perhaps consider fact billions spent tv companies , sponsors , \( abc , nbc , cbs \) superbowl , olympics , even monday night baseball games perhaps boycott games \? dc x company get finished , market , abominable space probably much cost effective companies , starving children people buy products , company hires workers , end result fewer children die starvation polar caps tfv0 lehigh edu student konsultant making world safe computing ! never owed little many r folk one must confuse john dunne 's famous quote man new york telephone 's 're dad
tfv0 ns1 cc lehigh edu \( theodore f \) subject space marketing would wonderfull organization lehigh university lines 32 article news cso uiuc edu , gfk39017 uxa cso uiuc edu \( george f krumins \) writes deleted say visible light astronomy already dying field pure hokum use logic things already bad , n't matter gets worse absurd maybe common sense logic dying fields george krumins deleted ok , scientists get around atmosphere fancy computer , looked ad hubble results , defects mirror partially correctable software \( see jupiter pictures results \) , effects completely reversable , going shuttle mission fix \? way see \( please , give swift net kick butt i'm ball park \) , making best limited , 's one hubble , shuttle makes another near future non thought perhaps self billboards could small optical receptors limited kind mounted reverse sides mirror 's \( used \) whole thing becomes giant array telescope polar caps tfv0 lehigh edu student konsultant making world safe computing ! never owed little many r folk one must confuse john dunne 's famous quote man new york telephone 's 're dad
annie wellesley edu \( r lee hawkins \) subject space marketing would wonderfull nntp posting host annie wellesley edu organization wellesley college lines 48 doubtfull credibility astronomer modern , ground based , visible light astronomy \( proposed orbiting billboards would upset \) already dying field ahh , perhaps 's 've \( astronomers \) built 2 10 meter ground based scopes studying designs larger ones seriously , though , 're never going get 10 meter scope orbit cheaply build one ground , adaptive optics good site , difference quality narrowed quite bit anyway also , scopes low orbit \( like hubble \) observe things continuously 45 minutes time , serious limitation opacity distortions caused atmosphere driven field use radio , far infrared space based telescopes case , bright point light passing field n't ruin observations case , sure hell half degree extent bright moon ever noticed much brighter night sky night \? thousands existing satellites would already done \( might seem bright eyes , far astronomy concerned , extremely bright \) existing satellites points light , advertising sign appeared point would useless , rather think appear larger satellite also , satellite tracks ruining lots plates current palomar sky survey frank crary cu boulder anyway , philosophy \? obviously qualified speak astronomy lee r lee hawkins annie wellesley edu department astronomy lucy wellesley edu observatory wellesley college ph 617 283 wellesley , fax 617 283
dan cc swarthmore edu subject space marketing boycott x xxmessage id swarthmore edu x xxdate sun , 16 may 93 04 17 16 gmt nntp posting host swarthmore edu organization swarthmore college lines 12 reasons humans think place control everything doubt space advertising worse kind advertising , lot harder escape , probably blatant example yet disregard fact fact universe annoying little species , n't \? dan \( cc swarthmore edu \) programmer guy geometry forum swarthmore college
gfk39017 uxa cso uiuc edu \( george f krumins \) subject space marketing would wonderfull organization university illinois urbana lines 44 tfv0 ns1 cc lehigh edu \( theodore f \) writes article news cso uiuc edu , gfk39017 uxa cso uiuc edu \( george f krumins \) writes deleted say visible light astronomy already dying field pure hokum use logic things already bad , n't matter gets worse absurd maybe common sense logic dying fields deleted ok , scientists get around atmosphere fancy computer , looked ad hubble results , defects mirror partially correctable software \( see jupiter pictures results \) , effects completely reversable , going shuttle mission fix \? deleted main effect spherical aberration problems primary mirror drive computer engineers develop image processing software much faster use deconvolution software images fixed hubble , ready incredible results ! every reason believe results exceed original specs fair margin adaptive optics combination hardware software works realtime , fact , case hubble might interested know technology made amateur market , form ao 2 adaptive optics system starting page 52 april , 1993 sky telescope three page review new product lists 1 , 290 article states ao 2 adaptive optics system comes handy soft plastic case three year old could carry around even though device really good brightest objects , could cope image movements 0 8 millimeter telescope 's focal plane imagine well infant technology years , especially dedicated system hundreds thousands dollars , many man hours invested development george krumins pufferfish observatory universe origin gfk39017 uxa cso uiuc edu two colliding home memorial telescope
lazio astrosun tn cornell edu \( joseph lazio \) subject space marketing would wonderfull organization department astronomy , cornell university lines 17 fph cunews carleton ca 1993may16 ucsu colorado edu reply lazio astrosun tn cornell edu nntp posting host seti tn cornell edu reply fcrary ucsu colorado edu 's message sun , 16 may 1993 14 31 20 gmt sun , 16 may 1993 14 31 20 gmt , fcrary ucsu colorado edu \( frank crary \) said fc modern , fc ground based , visible light astronomy \( proposed fc orbiting billboards would upset \) already dying field fc opacity distortions caused atmosphere fc driven field use radio , far infrared space based fc telescopes 's one radio astronomer quite concerned radio frequency interference portable telephones , etc e mail lazio astrosun tn cornell edu joseph lazio phone \( 607 \) 255 6420 icbm 42 deg 20' 08 n 76 deg 48 w cornell knows exist \? ! \? stop rape
lazio astrosun tn cornell edu \( joseph lazio \) subject space marketing would wonderfull organization department astronomy , cornell university lines 60 1993may17 olaf wellesley edu 1993may17 ucsu colorado edu reply lazio astrosun tn cornell edu nntp posting host seti tn cornell edu reply fcrary ucsu colorado edu 's message mon , 17 may 1993 05 48 59 gmt mon , 17 may 1993 05 48 59 gmt , fcrary ucsu colorado edu \( frank crary \) said fc article 1993may17 olaf wellesley edu annie wellesley edu \( r lee hawkins \) writes doubtfull credibility astronomer modern , ground based , visible light astronomy \( proposed orbiting billboards would upset \) already dying field ahh , perhaps 's 've \( astronomers \) built 2 10 meter ground based scopes studying designs larger ones fc exactly fraction current research done big , fc light telescopes \? 've seen , 10 less fc \( 100 25 years ago \) sounds like dying fc n't seem like fair comparison infrared astronomy n't really get started something like 25 yrs ago n't explode iras 1983 gamma ray \( think x ray \) observations n't really get started '70s believe true ultraviolet observations general , know extreme uv \( short 1000 \) observations , \( launched last year \) almost history except observations skylab '70s twenty five years ago , vast majority astronomers access optical radio instruments , far instruments available , growth new fields resulted optical work representing smaller fraction total astronomical work seriously , though , 're never going get 10 meter scope orbit cheaply build one ground , adaptive optics good site , difference quality narrowed quite bit anyway fc would true , adaptive optics worked well fc take look papers subject refer anything fc 100 microns n't know , fc people trouble seeing beyond 7 microns fc reasons think adaptive optics work shorter fc wavelengths without truely radical improvements technology hmm , folks department planning using adaptive optics 5 palomar near infrared observations \( 1 2 microns \) might surprised hear n't ntt already pushing toward 0 1 resolution , ground based site \( remember 0 1 one selling points hst \) e mail lazio astrosun tn cornell edu joseph lazio phone \( 607 \) 255 6420 icbm 42 deg 20' 08 n 76 deg 48 w cornell knows exist \? ! \? stop rape
pjc jet uk \( peter j card \) subject zealous shuttle critics organization joint european torus lines 40 great western , dunno great northern postulated masterpiece keep compass chaps , get round eventually great western highly successful mail ship , hybrid sail steam propulsion great eastern , broke financially otherwise , revolutionary leap forward ship design thirty thousand ton steel vessel , primary steam propulsion , time easily biggest ocean going vessel ever built brunel took advantage fact cargo fuel capacity rose cube scale , drag rose square , really big ship could steam thousands miles without unfortunately , real market beast time , eventually sold scrap values another poster said , went successful career telegraph cable laying ship fact ship day capable laying cable one go , endurance capacity carry huge reel way , defective sections see arthur c book world one think right shuttle goes history , technical triumph financial disaster builder , would entirely , doubt history charitable true shuttle things launch system , worth \? low cost access space , could affordable space station shuttle like extended manned missions , shuttle much space truck space rv , \( cheap run \( \) peter card , joint european torus , abingdon 3ea uk tel 0235 fax email pjc jet uk compuserve , 366 others made ` ' disclaimer please note personal view construed official comment jet project
! \( robert b love \) subject astronauts weightlessness feel organization rocky mountain next users' group lines 10 article 3qm access digex net prb access digex net \( pat \) writes adaptation trainer \( pat \) dr harm msc \( oops , mean jsc \) aptly named person \? went thru spinning chair tests jsc phd charge milt technician strapped , occasion , inserted probe \( needle \) named bev
len math nwu edu \( len evens \) subject space marketing would wonderfull nntp posting host math nwu edu organization dept math , northwestern univ lines 61 article k75 agora rain com jhart agora rain com \( jim hart \) writes anybody strong claim control night sky , astronomers check common law days wild lands n't scarce , pioneers laid claim land putting use , eg clearing growing crop even lay claim right passage 've done long enough owners complained taken steps stop usage begets property rights astronomers using night sky thousands years \( eg light \) , lose common law right ownership another consequence ownership free sell , astronomers need money work light polluting billboards mirrors go , need even money buy extra image processing equipment , filters , space telescopes etc get around problem , long define astronomers \( eg include amateur astronomers \? nature lovers \? \) set system voluntary consensus solve dispute , instead invoking bans , regulations , etc enforced politicians point gun \( folks always think solution , ought pass law , solve problems first instead last resort methods failed \? \) stuff deleted proposal certainly needs work , working kind ideas first writing ought law letters congresscritters let 's give consensus , via free market , chance solve problem jim hart jhart agora rain com would mr hart please explain one could get every nation earth every corporation agree astronomers night sky without remember every nation follows english common law countries , history , probably true rulers everything explicitly owned individuals even north america , principle , inhabitants owned everything , new arrivals wanted use land resources , took case mr hart n't noticed , currently brutal war going bosnia owns course , friendly super power give international astronomy organization anti satelite missiles also agree defend attacked , proposal might work , would hardly non coercive us nutty environmentalists think might make sense first try mobilize public opinion advertising space also use governmental actions \( like taxing power , example \) discourage course would coercive mr hart leonard evens len math nwu edu 708 491 dept mathematics , northwestern univ , evanston , il
england helix nih gov \( mad vlad \) subject satellite capabilities patriot games organization nat'l inst health lines 20 hello netters , i'm new board thought might best place post question regarding satellite technology seen movie patriot games movies , cia utilizes sats specific terrorist camp n africa photos taken sats stunning ! know sats capable license plates vehicles question camp question taken british sas sas action , cia team watching back langley , va action sas clear appeared relayed via sat action night photography appeared x ray type , one could see action within tents structures camp exist 's nature \? e , uv , ir , x ray , etc ps wrote book patriot games \? mad vlad
loss fs7 ece cmu edu \( doug loss \) subject space marketing would wonderfull organization electrical computer engineering , carnegie mellon lines 17 article k75 agora rain com jhart agora rain com \( jim hart \) writes astronomers using night sky thousands years n't complain scenic \( eg light \) , lose common law right ownership english \( american , canadian , etc \) common law recognized legally binding international law \? , 're talking something nature n't limited territory one nation doug loss loss husky bloomu edu
rcollins ns encore com \( roger collins \) subject space marketing would wonderfull reply rcollins encore com organization encore computer corporation nntp posting host sysgem1 encore com lines 23 article netcom com , geoffm netcom com \( geoff miller \) writes article ucdavis edu ez012344 hamlet ucdavis edu \( dan herrin \) writes also abomination somebody would spend money space advertising children starving \? perhaps redistribution wealth would help specious emotionalism commercial enterprises typically n't spend money starving children \( world problems \) anyway , least excess whatever minimum amount required lip service pr purposes precisely would place threshold beyond advertising spending deemed abominable , \? yes ! take money profitable commercial enterprises give government redistribute government much efficient , trustworthy , noble self serving businesses \) let 's ignorance bud commercial enterprises , whole world would starving roger collins
zeus tamu edu \( igor \) subject questions kc 135 veterans organization texas university , academic computing services lines 26 distribution world nntp posting host zeus tamu edu keywords kc 135 experiments research news software vax vms vnews 1 41 think may problems may want make stand side wo n't affect much writing disk hard disk hmm would think edge would worse , since might make tracks around due sideways force head older drives used tell reformat going stand drive edge 3 g , side force might even problem new drives well seemed work mac ii installation talking oh yeah something forgot mention even though 're water around , dripping roof plane make sure hardware covered make also sure keyboards protected two phase flow coming sick people happened us good luck igor texas university
oac hsc uth tmc edu \( chuck \) subject interesting dc x cost anecdote organization academic computing lines 22 distribution world nntp posting host hsc uth tmc edu article 1993may14 iti org , aws iti org \( allen w sherzer \) wrote told interesting story dc x air force costing team looked dc x \( called dc x1 btw \) gave estimate much would cost air force build cost sdio 70m build would cost usaf 320 million four half times much 'd willing bet majority cost difference could accounted af 's requirement documentation , 5 6 huge requirements design reviews , travel expenses flying personnel around meetings , specifying hardware doubt actual fabrication cost materials labor would different sdio 's costs course , cynical opinion based years watching government procurement process try cover lack creativity innovation reams documentation \)
18084tm msu edu \( tom \) subject x added forwarded space digest organization via international space university original sender isu vacation venari cs cmu edu distribution sci lines 29 jeffrey l cook sez object would interfere anyone 's enjoyment night sky \( would invisible night \) , would significant impact astronomical observations suspect must kind underlying agenda coming surface , spite , people quick denounce condemn something would demonstrate strength western capitalism lazlo sez buying paving ground glass would also demonstrate strength western capitalism , n't make particularly attractive idea country reduced \? planetary equivalent guy gets penis parties \? actually , paving ground glass would n't demonstrate strength western capitalism , since 's strength depends use mind materials fulfillment needs desires mind , i'm saying one would benefit land , n't think anyone would actually pay , unlike \( potential \) n't quite follow part someone exposing genitals parties , got chuckle anyway thought strange friends \) tommy mac tom mcwilliams 517 355 2178 wk communicated communists , 18084tm ibm cl msu edu 336 9591 hm pacified pacifists
cab col hp com \( chris best \) subject space marketing boycott organization service lines 14 nntp posting host hpctdkz col hp com according person talked , proposed billboard small resolve naked eye small visually unimportant anyway , suggested visual impact would approximate jumbo jet feet \( \) altitude sure n't tailor comments according guessed wanted hear \? words , lie \? think good would billboard advertiser nobody see \? would advertise , telescope companies \? pretty narrow audience
mbk lyapunov ucsd edu \( matt \) subject space marketing would wonderfull organization institute nonlinear science , ucsd lines 34 nntp posting host lyapunov ucsd edu x newsreader tin 1 1 pl3 fcrary ucsu colorado edu \( frank crary \) writes i'm sure sagan considers sacrilegious , would n't doubtfull credibility astronomer modern , ground based , visible light astronomy \( proposed orbiting billboards would upset \) already dying field opacity distortions caused atmosphere driven field use radio , far infrared space based telescopes hardly keck telescope hawaii taken first pictures 're nearly good hubble tiny fraction cost case , bright point light passing field n't ruin observations case , thousands existing satellites would already done \( might seem bright eyes , far astronomy concerned , extremely bright \) believe orbiting space junk far brighter still like full moon moon deep sky observation sky \( looking \) scattered light known problem , course two weeks every four ok happens billboard circles every 90 minutes \? would good time \? frank crary cu boulder matt mbk ucsd edu institute nonlinear science , university california , san diego ad archive nonlinear dynamics papers programs ftp lyapunov ucsd edu , username anonymous
anthony lest lest ucsu colorado edu subject 2nd cfv soc religion islam ahmadiyya moderated organization colorado edu lines 249 gnu ai mit edu nntp posting host rodan uu net call votes official 2nd call votes newsgroup name proposed newsgroup soc religion islam ahmadiyya charter religious newsgroup , would mainly devoted understanding appraisal ahmadiyya muslim community , beliefs , ideology philosophy also discuss distinction ahmadiyya muslim community branches islam addition newsgroup also discuss beliefs , teachings , philosophy major religions pro universal religious appreciation , awareness , tolerance newsgroup may also used post important religious events within world wide ahmadiyya islamic community voting instructions voting held since first call votes appeared \( may 4 , 1993 \) , continue untill may 25 , 1993 \( 23 59 59 gmt \) votes received within period gives total 21 days vote votes favor creation proposed newsgroup sent form e mail message yes ucsu colorado edu clear statement body message like vote yes soc religion islam ahmadiyya vote favor r etc similarly votes proposed newsgroup sent form e mail message ucsu colorado edu clear statement body message like vote soc religion islam ahmadiyya vote creation r etc may also include vote subject header mail please make sure include full name , mailer one person may vote matter many e mail accounts one vote per person shall considered valid ambiguous votes like vote yes r , shall considered comments would counted votes votes received 23 59 59 gmt , may 25 , 1993 , valid counted event multiple votes received person , last one counted change mind regarding way voted , send new vote , previous vote shall discarded posting usenet counted vote please send votes e mail address per son posted votes shall counted either note acknowledgement shall sent everyone votes two additional cfv 's posted course vote number \( \) yes votes disclosed voting period , end votes shall made public purpose newsgroup following main purposes group shall achieve \) highlight common beliefs major religions philosophical traditions relate ahmadiyya muslim community ii \) discuss doctrines , origin teachings ahmad muslim community , dynamic world wide movement iii \) expound islamic teachings beliefs holy quran islamic traditions ahmadiyya islamic perspective iv \) emphasize discuss similarities ahmadi muslims followers religions world explore understanding respect 's faith brought eliminate religious malice among people religious phil traditions v \) look origin teachings religions general islam ahmadiyya muslim movement par , use origin foster better understanding among ahmadi muslims people promote acceptance fundamental rights freedom conscience vi \) point current world problems suggest solutions problems , offered different religions systems ethical philosophies vii \) investigate implications science religion particular emphasis ahmadi muslim perspective , openness dialogue people religions philosophical traditions reasoned positions relationship religion empirical science , logic , scientific ethics viii \) exchange important news views ahmadiyya muslim community religions ix \) add diversity existing religious newsgroups pre sent usenet interest promoting forum dialogue x \) inquire religious persecution rise world suggest solutions remedy ever situation world general islamic world particular xi \) commemorate contributions humanity , society world peace made founders followers religions general international ahmadiyya muslim community particular type group moderated orderly free religious moderation prevent disagreement , dissent , controversy based difference beliefs doctrine rather , moderators seek mainly discourage tory , abusive , language , introduction issues irrelevant based provisions charter moderators chosen personal e mail general consensus among proponents discussion news groups following moderators proposed agreed upon moderator nabeel rana rana rintintin colorado edu co moderator dr ijaz ijaz ccu umanitoba ca brief description ahmadiyya islam ahmadiyya movement islam , international organi , found , india founder movement , ahmad \( 1835 \) , proclaimed promised age scriptures almost major religions world claimed fulfillment long awaited second comming jesus christ \( metaphorically \) , muslim mahdi , promised messiah claims ahmad raised storms hostility extreme opposition , often witnessed history divine reformers even today sect persecuted ly muslim regimes right ahmadi muslims openly practice religion define muslims severely restricted many muslim countries united nations , human rights organizations amnesty international top countries voiced concerns denial basic human civil members movement , far avail despite opposition persecution , movement cont grow current membership millions around world 130 countries , come diverse ethnic backgrounds movement devoted world peace towards developing better understanding religions ahmadi muslims always opposed forms violence , bigotry , intolerance fundamentalism among many activities , sect es network hundreds schools , hospitals , clinics many third world countries institutions staffed volunteer professionals fully financed movement 's internal resources movement stresses importance tion leadership members included high number professionals well world class individuals ahmadiyya mission bring universal moral reform , establish peace justice , unite mankind one universal brotherhood newsgroup creation discussion proposed newsgroup ended voting held three weeks news group gets 2 3rd majority 100 yes create votes n't create votes newsgroup shall created vote taker mr anthony lest asked proponents newsgroup act official impartial vote taker proposed newsgroup objection use workstation purpose vote taking neither university , anthony lest anything proposal newsgroup collecting votes neutral third party questions comments questions comments proposed newsgroup may sent nabeel rana rana rintintin colorado edu questions problems voting sent anthony lest lest ucsu colorado edu
wjhovi01 ulkyvx louisville edu subject homosexuality issues christianity organization university louisville lines 19 bruce liv ac uk \( bruce stephens \) suggests different levels acceptance homosexuality 1 \) regard homosexual orientation sin \( evil , whatever \) 2 \) regard homosexual behaviour sin , accept orientation \( though presumably orientation unfortunate \) dislike people indulge 3 \) 2 , love sinner 4 \) accept homosexuality altogether would add 4' churches accept homosexual orientation hold people certain standards sexual behavior promiscuity , abuse power relationships , harrassment , equally place lives homosexual heterosexual people course , would bring dread homosexual marriage , could n't ! \) billh
aaronc athena mit edu \( aaron bryce cardenas \) subject ethnicity worship organization massachusetts institute technology lines 160 payne writes culture sake perceive unity seems antithetical message inclusion preach agree , exception n't preach ignoring cultures body whole must unified question , shall melting pot , boiling one legitimate expression , shall like stew , maintaining integrity expressed diversity upholding unity thought \? released churches use latin mass \( unity \) allow speak people common language \( diversity \) revelation 2 3 , see first century church , one congregation major city one unified church city , people different cultures naturally , formed something stew , different members different nevertheless , one body met together , sometimes smaller groups homes sometimes bigger groups places temple courts particular city , , find common language associated region instance , rome , latin spoken united states today , english spoken would make sense congregations different cities would speak common language necessarily latin naturally , would expect lead evangelist preach common language first century church , probably many people congregation could speak given tongue translate message people foreign ethnic groups today , however , n't see people speaking tongues translate sermons , even called pentacostal churches modern day equivalent though bi speakers unified church member sometimes called international churches christ , meet together sundays , headphones people n't speak english hear ongoing translation sermon native tongue neat idea , huh \? , meet different size groups random sort way sundays , sometimes meeting spanish speaking people , example , hear evangelist preach native language addition , meet small groups couple times week bible discussion groups someone speaks different language almost always people also speak language \( assuming congregation large enough \) meetings people speak common language , keep touch culture , want , also equally deep among church relationships people many various nationalities purpose church thwarted action \? action letting catholics worship native language instead latin \? indeed ! see second paragraph response second clipping article however , mean action forming denominations based culture , purpose church indeed thwarted 'll assume second answering next clipping rather believe enhanced , paul us become one might reach thus , person group people feel comfortable among , shall give place feel comfortable heritage still l ove god \? guess aaron met needs people , certainly , helping proud cultural denominations n't yet largely isolated quality christian outside nationality \( denomination \) shall certainly give people place feel comfortable heritage however , way destroy church unity , rather encourages among disciples approach groups cite sounds like groups wonderful intentions , going things wrong way names like african methodist episcopal church still make cringe , although much understand racism past caused groups formed , try unite know 's hard many people newsgroup imagine one body people earth , quite possible , working make happen however , might smaller step towards unity , would taking word african denomination 's name perhaps someday long time , also remove methodist episcopal part also , simply part church regard , note sig mit know , religiously culturally , everyone comes immediately comfortable english , much less american culture shall conduct campus churches shall one church , sake unity \? shall organizations like useful helping students new america make transition culture , language , thought \? shall one church , sake unity , shall useful helping students new america make transition culture , language , thought n't make new denomination try solve problems whole denominational mindset causes problems , sadly ame church , retain african root expression , means exclusive since live cambridge , invite visit local assembly thank invitation shows indeed heart spread gospel jesus well take part cultural heritage thank also responding post know \( well \) time consuming whole idea celebrating culture paved good intentions , still feel must restore preserve unity time church , boston church , singing mentioned post , yet n't limit expression mexican culture , even though mit campus ministry spanish \( speaking \) zone made commitment god go sunday services church , know brothers sisters fully devoted love god disciples n't believe tongues , may already picked , understanding biblical christianity however , certainly willing visit congregation provided n't interfere normal worship since also live cambridge , also extend invitation visit services often like meet mit students student center \( across 77 mass ave \) sundays leave worship simply call wednesday night find service held particular day number 225 , 354 weeks rest summer service normally last noon , occasionally later earlier \( 1 3 times per year \) let us always strive reach gospel means necessary move milk meat , petty things world separate us dissolve away , shall stand naked god shed grace us , delightful creation definitely ! let 's also strive grow obedience lord men women god 's heart aaron bryce cardenas net net \( 617 \) 225 mit undergraduate student u aaron b cardenas environmental engineering ie snail 290 mass ave 242 aaronc athena mit edu mail cambridge , 02139 \( good two weeks \) speak one another psalms , hymns spiritual songs sing make music heart lord , always giving thanks god father everything , name lord jesus christ ephesians 5 19 20
whitsebd nextwork rose hulman edu \( bryan whitsell \) subject homosexuality issues christiani reply whitsebd nextwork rose hulman edu organization news service rose hulman lines 13 article may 9 05 41 18 1993 athos rutgers edu todd nickel laurentian ca writes question interpret verses must establish reasons believing true based interpretation scriptures given someone come grips see way interpreting wrong please tell verses interpreted way read surrounding text christ 's love , bryan
student tc umn edu \( timothy richardson \) subject mary 's assumption organization productions lines 31 article may 9 05 41 32 1993 athos rutgers edu brian , usc edu writes one last point ex catholic attempted explain catholic doctrine assumption asserting connected belief mary die correct summary catholics believe dogma assumption carefully phrased avoid saying whether mary die fact , consensus among catholic theologians seems mary fact die would make sense christ died , mother , waited foot cross , would want share death article good short summary traditional christian teaching concerning death mary also good question virgin mary micheal walker tells story well would like add eastern orthodox church celebrate \( falling asleep \) theotokos \( mother god \) icon day shows mary lying bed surrounded apostles weeping christ , resurrected glory , holding seems small child , fact , mary 's soul already christ heaven assumption mary one confirmation us christians christ indeed conquer death general resurrection last day disciples surprised find mary 's body missing grave mother savior first christians gave birth word god would saved pray orthodox church , prayers theotokos , savior save us timothy richardson student tc umn edu
jenk microsoft com \( jen kilmer \) subject hell organization microsoft corporation lines 40 article may 7 01 07 10 1993 athos rutgers edu mdw cbnewsg cb att com \( mark wuest \) writes article may 5 02 51 25 1993 athos rutgers edu shellgate ! llo uu4 psi com \( larry l overacker \) writes q knew beyond doubt hell exist unbelievers simply remained dead , would remain christian \? interesting question , esp since remember wishing heart true would n't good christian anymore christianity terribly hard , reward heaven \( maybe , sometimes , really good \) acceptance wanted way knew beyond doubt , would foolish disciple man claimed exist truth , jesus' disciple disagree time , allowing lord jesus done since found \( 6 months ago \) want lose period said , originally interpreted christ never mentioned sheol weeping teeth , christ preached follow died stayed dead point forever ceased exist fear based religion faith relationship one made us follow christ 's great way live life could care less really happens die buddhist great way live life i'm converting , though believe complete christ think buddhists also complete \? jen include stdisclaimer jenk microsoft com msdos testing
gt7122b prism gatech edu \( randal lee nicholas mandock \) subject question virgin mary organization georgia institute technology lines 16 article may 6 00 34 46 1993 geneva rutgers edu news cbnewsk att com writes basically teaching infallibility holds pope infallible matters faith doctrine , college bishops likewise infallible , well exactly correct , nice try catholic doctrine infallibility refers freedom error teaching universal church matters faith morals teaching taken doctrine randal lee nicholas mandock catechist gt7122b prism gatech edu
camelot bradley edu \( karen \) subject got saved organization bradley university lines 42 well , certainly turned first paragraph oft used ca n't count times 've heard common tactics anymore 'you may believe n't change fact 's old analogy trusting parents sheesh need point parents show children right \? difference capability alone crushes analogy , christianity seen turned beliefs seek fact knowledge get , evidence belief ca n't far christians received neither becoming christian problems asked one explain actual evidence always see person 's outside always specific , somewhat miraculous example truth god working help followers happened nearly 4 years accident severe complications triple left leg surgery pins put , removed bone perfectly healed could detected yet constant pain ankle foot always swollen developed leg , none could explained best specialists sophisticated tests te northern illinois region went everywhere one could explain summer \( june 19 , 1991 exact \) gave life heart christ vowed control life \( never really anyway \) cross fact whole life screwed trying fix facing possibility lifetime \( confined one order save legs damage since cause problems unknown , 2 1 2 months day \) found ore coincidental less 2 weeks put faith mouth , one long line doctors even specialist , diagnosed problems difficulty , set path effective cure , walking running without pain stopped 4 years diagnosis something felt doctors must overlooked perfectly obvious test results maybe n't hit miraculous really imagine active 17 year old told may able walk longer happy 18 year old dance run knowing problem along revealed knew right song says god awesome god
bjorn b larsen delab sintef \( bjorn b larsen \) subject satanic tounges reply bjorn b larsen delab sintef organization delab lines 63 article may 6 00 34 49 1993 geneva rutgers edu marka hcx1 ssd csd harris com \( mark ashley \) writes citing article may 2 09 50 21 1993 geneva rutgers edu mmh dcs qmw ac uk \( matthew huntbach \) simple test take several people speak one language \( e g chinese , russian , german , english \) let gifted one start speaking toungues audience understand gifted one clearly native language however , gifted one hear speaking language works everytime 8 \) thread si starting get really silly nonsense belong r c really hurts read posts issue chose believe want , allowed define christianity see parts see something see , vice versa , give right play jokes belief ! wonder miracle work , even able collect group people like one describe , see reason miracle really happen god one miracles , humans ! way , least , headed goal , following different paths remember going spend eternity together stand view earth , possibly stand spending eternity together \? tongues question belief wether believe jesus , believe able give gift gifts mentioned bible evidence bible people accept gifts way better others perhaps would believe gifted ones glorifying god rather perhaps 'd witness real miracle maybe people received spiritual gifts interested glorifying glorifying god , n't know case , still suggest gifts faked bible find jesus always miracles said nothing , except father tells perhaps best able live example ! , bjorn mail e mail bjorn b larsen bjorn b larsen delab sintef sintef delab n trondheim tel 47 7 norway fax 47 7
jhpb sarto budd lake nj us \( joseph h buehler \) subject immaculate conception \? organization none lines 12 marida ignacio writes still , angel gabriel 's greetings hail mary , full grace , lord blessed art thou amongst women even mary confused greeting various explanations reaction angel 's greeting one angel getting , mother messiah knew , suffering gave moment 's pause
jhpb sarto budd lake nj us \( joseph h buehler \) subject doctrine original sin organization none lines 42 regarding consequences original sin catholics believe adam primarily lost sin , human race , sanctifying grace basically share divine life take rock make able talk god human sanctifying grace similar makes one able live plane powers possible creature everlasting life new testament speaks christ came restore life sanctifying grace human race instituted sacraments means life given people , increase absence sanctifying grace death means automatic exclusion heaven nature heaven 's impossible human part without gift sanctifying grace use example , would like taking rock attempting hold conversation rocks cannot talk neither human beings live heaven without sanctifying grace obviously applies equally well infants adults , since souls infants must baptized , therefore , cannot enter heaven need form life , cannot enter heaven turning around , infant baptism good supporting evidence catholic belief sanctifying grace unless baptism causes change infant 's soul , particular reason insist practice yet infant baptism probably practiced apostles , certainly part church shortly thereafter evidence infant baptism new testament 1 cor 1 16 , acts 16 15 , 16 33 , 18 8 , also acts 11 14 known sure least one disciple apostle john baptized infant st polycarp \( remark makes acts martyrdom \) st justin martyr mentions men women baptized infants direct evidence st irenaeus 's heresies , tertullian 's baptism far mentioned first 170 years lord 's death , starts tons evidence practice
jhpb sarto budd lake nj us \( joseph h buehler \) subject ancient canon roman rite organization none lines 132 following part ancient text known de sacramentis , usually attributed st ambrose milan , canon traditional catholic mass roman rite conclusion comparison central part traditional roman canon already fairly well place sometime late 4th century taken mass western rites , right reverend dom , abbot , 1934 , without permission excerpted chapter vi mass rome , fifth seventh centuries paragraph end book , sorry long lines joe buehler text de sacramentis roman canon roman canon \( 400 ad \) \( 1962 ad \) \( english translation \) te \( omitted \) fac \( \) , quam tu deus , thou , god , deign , , , bless offer , , , , , make approved , , , , effective , right , est et wholly pleasing every christi ut corpus et way , may become fiat good , body tui blood thy dearly christi beloved son , jesus christ lord qui quam , qui quam , , day suis ac suffered , took bread , et holy venerable ad te , , hands , raised , deus , ad te eyes heaven , unto , , , tibi thee , god , almighty , , , , father , giving thanks suis et suis thee , blessed , broke suis et , gave et ex hoc ex hoc hoc disciples , saying take ye hoc est corpus est corpus eat , pro body modo like manner , est , est , et supper done , taking quam , also , ac holy ad te , item tibi venerable hands , , deus , , giving thanks thee , , , suis , blessed , gave suis et et ex eo disciples , saying suis , hic est take ye , drink et ex hoc mei , et hic est blood qui pro new eternal covenant et pro mystery faith , shall shed many unto forgiveness sins often shall mei memoriam things , memory shall ergo et , , nos , therefore , et ab tui , sed et lord , , , christi blessed passion , tibi tui , tam christ , thy son , hostiam , et lord , also sanctum et ab , resurrection sed et dead , finally glorious ascension de heaven , , thy ministers , ac , hostiam also thy holy people , , hostiam , offer unto thy supreme hostiam , majesty , gifts sanctum , et bestowed upon us , pure victim , holy victim , perfect victim holy bread life eternal salvation et et , ut supra ac thou deign regard gracious per et , kindly attention hold , acceptable , thou es es tui deign accept tui abel et abel , et offerings abel , thy , servant , et tibi et tibi sacrifice abraham tuus patriarch , sanctum , thy chief priest hostiam offered unto thee , holy sacrifice victim te , humbly deus thee , almighty god , bid per offerings tui sublime brought hands thy holy angel unto thy etc altar face thy divine majesty etc doubt two editions text de sacramentis upper italy dated year 400 , ancient witness possess principal parts roman canon , appear time seventh century question whether roman canon older even de sacramentis discussed mgr opinion , , contrary , think former bears traces closer composition , carefully guarded orthodoxy , consequently text corrected de sacramentis shall see , studying list names living dead , mgr argues good reason date fragments \( 498 514 \) thus state roman mass , least chief parts canon , beginning fourth century
cs cmu edu \( thomas galen ault \) subject people become atheists \? organization school computer science , carnegie mellon lines 70 article may 5 02 50 42 1993 athos rutgers edu fil sapienza med umich edu \( fil sapienza \) writes interested finding people become atheists believed god god conversing groups , 've often sensed anger hostility though n't mean imply atheists angry hostile , seem one motivation giving faith thus , atheism might result broken ness 'd like field one , may although believer follower christ , experiences religion n't positive fact , one point life , three days , simply could n't believe existence god anyway , look back upon troubles 've , seem fall two categories impulses unbelief resulted logical contradictions , impulses unbelief resulted frustration god first category n't occur much anymore , worked arguments non existence god way back , would cause problems , would struggle faith continue believe see others less stubborn \( mean stubborn often thing standing atheism time time \) would fail second category arises long term personal difficulties struggle live life god would live without living life others would tell god would live good example struggle radical christians meet , ever , fire , n't think ever want nevertheless , lukewarm faith , n't really fit mainstream either quite naturally , feel lot anxiety within christian society , lead lot internal tension , want know right , another part believes want wrong christians think quite naturally , tension destructive effect relationship god , internal strife , 's atheism sitting like promised land rules , responsibilities , need live anyone 's expectations complete freedom course , 's illusion , nevertheless , 's appealing illusion , especially called people god behaving like total easily understand someone would go route , would hostile ever coming back imho , many former christians turned atheists actively hostile christianity experience christ god n't peaceful one , one mind control shut 're told know 's best 's god 's 're young know god 's yet courtesy christ 's followers final reason people become atheists christians good reputation right one things attracted people christianity ancient days love christians obviously one another world around unlike rest world , christian communities actively cared poor , christian rich backs poorer brothers , bent help christians known living exemplary lives , even thought traitors state would n't sacrifice nowadays , courtesy media christian leaders lost christ way power , people see christians sexually repressed want society facist version moral view lot reasons people become atheists , n't time go right tom ault
eugene bigelow ebay sun com \( geno \) subject god , morality , massacres reply eugene bigelow ebay sun com organization sun microsystems , inc lines 44 jek cu nih gov \( \) james kiefer writes \( stuff deleted \) first point wrong , joseph 's brothers wrong , judas wrong intend evil god somehow brings good , make less subject condemnation punishment second point course , god bring good good would brought serbians refrained sins robbery rape murder good purposes excuse us duty right 're saying , god exercises direct control , influence upon humanity n't control every thought action , takes , whether intended evil , turns something good seems , idea conflicts belief god gave humans free far determine , impossible reconcile two different ideas god exert influence upon anyone anything anytime , would upon someone 's free unless , course , believe god give us complete free , rather , sort conditional free something allows us make choices control lives except god wants use us fulfill good purpose heart controlling us way hear alot people look various events , mostly things like aids epidemic make comments god 's difficult time understanding people believe god controls anything happens planet except , possibly asked someone 's prayer according bible , going let people go one two plagues , god kept heart moses could cast 7 plagues upon egyptians , last plague causing death many innocent children , god upon 's free used puppet god free hebrews , free sort grand fashion suppose hebrew 's point view , could seen turning something bad good , i'm sure egyptians n't see way examples god turned something bad something good based upon showing one group people another , 's good based upon point view god , supposed god humanity , play favorites \?
jcj tellabs com \( jcj \) subject people become atheists \? organization huh \? whuzzat \? lines 15 article may 7 01 09 44 1993 14556 athos rutgers edu muirm argon gas organpipe uug arizona edu \( maxwell c muir \) writes think give amatuer \) , would happy proven wrong problem , proven wrong sound broken \? absolutely went journey lukewarm christianity , agnosticism , atheism , agnosticism , \( although know faith less \) christianity think 's path many us take jeff johnson jcj tellabs com
tony minster york ac uk subject revelations babylon \? organization department computer science , university york , england lines 37 woo ! far , 've following interpretations figure rev 17 18 \) united states america b \) mho db \) figure fallen spiritual powers corrupt oppress human society c \) historical jerusalem \) historical rome dare suggest passage might many meaning \? prophecy reveals god 's judgement corrupt state oppressing chosen people \( \) god 's judgement extends especially chosen city \( c \) , despite city 's special call , still rejected god 's grace decisive time \( rev 11 8 \? also n't 24 equally suggestive rome jerusalem \? \) guilty many crimes rome babylon \( \) equally subject god 's judgement good book \( tm \) actually encompasses viewpoints revealing corrupting spiritual powers warring mankind society 've created \( b \) clever , huh \? \( flame ! \) need argue ! think mary 's view lot sense seems deliberate contrast rev 17 18 rev 21 22 mortal jerusalem chosen god never \( historically \) fulfilling new jerusalem perfected \( outside history \) purely god 's grace eg details like rev 17 1 ` sits many cf rev 22 single stream new `the river life flowing throne god lamb ' rex n't understand post 's relevance babylonian mystery religions \? please elaborate ideas ot book rev \? freak idea primarily interpretation rev \? 'd mail , ca n't get thru unknown illegal user fnal fnal gov something 're telling us \?
umn cs cs umn edu \( dale \) subject question hell organization university minnesota lines 12 basis idea hell place eternal suffering \? biblical , please reference 's train thought god using earth manufacture heavenly beings , logical would certain yield , certain amount waste yield goes heaven , waste burned \( destroyed \) hell necessary punish waste , rather destroy \? peace joy , dale
hayesstw risc1 unisa ac za \( steve hayes \) subject monophysites mike walker organization university south africa lines 29 article may 9 05 38 52 1993 athos rutgers edu nabil cae wisc edu \( nabil ayoub \) writes final note , oriental orthodox eastren orthodox sign common statement christology , monophysitism condemned coptic orthodox church believe monophysitism point seems overlooked many ending 1600 year old schism seems sight theologians said differences fundamentally ones terminology , faith groups parishes eucharist , southern africa running joint theological training course coptic byzantine orthodox still several things sorted , however far copts concerned , three ecumenical councils , byzantine orthodox acknowledge seven steve hayes , department missiology editorial department univ south africa , p box 392 , pretoria , 0001 south africa internet hayesstw risc1 unisa ac za fidonet 5 7101 20 steve hayes p5 f22 n7101 z5 fidonet org faq missiology study christian mission part faculty theology unisa
news cbnewsk att com subject homosexuality issues christianity organization bell labs lines 46 article may 7 01 08 16 1993 14381 athos rutgers edu whitsebd nextwork rose hulman edu writes one thinks homosexuality christianity compatible check romans 1 27 corinthians 6 9 timothy 1 10 jude 1 7 ii peter 2 6 9 gen 19 lev 18 22 \( name verses pertain homosexuality \) would n't go sin father told growing catholics allowed associate anyone divorced verses divorce somehow , divorce became acceptable \( even catholicism \) certainly longer sin associate divorced person point person deal paul repeatedly talks thorn side , think refers lust , others pride , knows whatever thorn , apparently compatible christianity , yet make epistles less \? bible warns us judging , greed , anxiety , impure thoughts , bearing , etc , etc suppose seek called christians entertained impure thoughts given greed , get 'em outta jesus pointed physician sinners attempts make homosexuals feel unwelcome discomfort homosexuality incompatible christianity hatred deep rather see someone try become closer jesus , need keep away jesus need us screen guilty particular sin really mistrust jesus says forgive sin \? think among people jesus encountered sinners pharisees sinners embraced pharisees , , , self righteous , pointed others sins seek thus gain forgiveness sins take verses admit sins , sins forgiven since guilty even one sin guilty whole law , repenting judging others guilty , guilty committed sin judged others poor spirit , meek , humble , merciful , pure heart , peacemakers , thirst justice , suffer sake blessed joe moore
psyrobtw ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( robert weiss \) subject mormon temples organization university buffalo lines 62 article may 9 05 40 06 1993 athos rutgers edu , cheap cs utah edu \( jay \) writes interpretations christian history matter one must recall know gnostics written enemies eusebius claims jesus imparted secret information peter , james , john resurrection , apostles transmitted information rest twelve \( eusebius , ii 1 3 4 \) curious read eh lord imparted gift knowledge james , john peter resurrection , delivered rest apostles , seventy , one eusebius , ecclesiastical history seems lord imparted gift knowledge , lord imparted secret information apostles interestingly enough , eusebius refers groups today call gnostics false gnosis \( eusebius , op cit , iii , 32 7 8 \) gripe thay professed gnosis , wrong one i'm afraid cannot find eh n't see anywhere 3 32 7 8 eusebius mentions certain gnostics wrong gnosis closest eusebius summarizes statements , whilst , attempted pervert sound doctrine saving gospel , yet dark one approach evidence many ways n't intend everyone interpret christian history , believe evidence exists \( favorably interpreted , course \) early christian rites analogous practiced mormons today favorably interpreted \? looking two four references gave \( eh handy , irenaeus look \) see room ' still falls short equivalence temple ceremonies links jay 's using eh support gift knowledge imparted secret information given secret signs tokens gain entrance heaven enough equivalence ideas us able call favorable interpretation appears closer fabrication robert weiss psyrobtw ubvms cc buffalo edu
pages ! bwebster uunet uu net \( bruce f webster \) subject mormon beliefs bastards reply pages ! bwebster uunet uu net organization pages software inc lines 63 article may 9 05 41 46 1993 athos rutgers edu erh0362 tesla njit edu writes could anyone enlighten mormon church views children born wedlock \? particular i'm interested know stigma attached children opposed parents i'm especially keen learn prohibition mormon faith bastards entering heaven names entered big genealogical book mormons keep salt lake city issue official position changed time , i'm interested learning old new beliefs e mail posting fine information pointers appreciated well , since wife \( gentle term \) bastard , probably speak bit authority stigma associated children conceived born wedlock rests solely upon parents 've committed sexual transgression repent child priori limitations indeed , concept blaming child parents' sins one mormons would find appalling note lds theology rejects original sin , term usually defined , subsequent need infant baptism \( cf 8 book mormon \) indeed , lds doctrine goes one step cases holds parents responsible children 's sins failed bring properly \( cf c 68 25 28 note passage applies members lds church \) also note big genealogical book salt lake city lds church massive storage facility nearby mountains containing \( \) vital statistic records \( birth , , baptism , marriage , death \) gathered entire world may , believe records 2 billion people vault time , lds church building line genealogical database neither case kind worthiness screening whether someone entered potential issue establishing parents , would apply case database bruce bruce f webster love constitution land , cto , pages software inc hate damned bwebster pages com administer import pages disclaimer h attributed brigham young following arrived separate posting clh follow follow lest anyone misunderstand , term bastard one never 25 years lds church membership heard applied , formally , child born wedlock , indeed would \( rightly \) considered vulgar , offensive term would echoed expression reply , except hopes poster would recognize offensive nature word given context unfortunately , posting reply , remembered subtle points often lost 'net , figured 'd better spell bruce bruce f webster bwebster pages com
dps nasa kodak com \( dan schaertel , , , \) subject homosexuality issues christianity reply dps nasa kodak com organization eastman kodak company lines 30 article 15441 geneva rutgers edu , loisc microsoft com \( lois christiansen \) writes might visit congregations christians , happen homosexuals , spirit filled believers , go lumping us together troy perry gee , think real criminals \( robbers , , drug addicts \) appear fun loving caring people 's point \? ok people nice \? n't satan christian christian issue , especially homosexuality let 's reach homosexuals christ let 's try change , need bring christ n't want gay , change living moral life , committed someone sex , god moving lives , tell change \? think old saying hate sin sinner appropriate many belive homosexuality wrong probably n't hate people n't n't hate kids wrong either tell right , lie n't admit wrong , n't make effort improve repent , get punished think quite appropriate may want careful think satan working maybe trying destroy sense right wrong feel maybe trying convince know god kind like adam eve story read compare today 's mentality may suprised
biz soil princeton edu \( dave \) subject people become atheists \? reply biz soil princeton edu organization princeton university lines 10 ken , happens die \? \? purpose life , think 's chance 're family friends \? think searching \? fill void exists life think fill void dave
biz soil princeton edu \( dave \) subject people become atheists \? reply biz soil princeton edu organization princeton university lines 11 article may 9 05 41 56 1993 athos rutgers edu , gt7122b prism gatech edu \( randal lee nicholas mandock \) writes bob reminds roommate order disbelieve atheism , says need proven wrong well , n't even waste time trying tell 'll take word response , tells say atheist 's prayer atheist 's prayer said \?
ptrei bistromath mitre org \( peter trei \) subject athiests hell organization mitre corporation lines 24 article may 9 05 38 49 1993 athos rutgers edu rexlex fnal fnal gov writes much deleted point today might masons \( note , worshipped osiris egypt \) much deleted bugs see kind nonsense first , reasonable evidence linking masonry ancient egypt , even existed prior late 14th century \( 's nothing definitive 17th \) second , worship osiris , ever , part masonic practice \( strictly non denominational \) tangents , never ending tangents , said ! rex peter trei ptrei mitre org editor masonic digest
mayne pipe cs fsu edu \( bill mayne \) subject people become atheists \? reply mayne nu cs fsu edu organization florida state university computer science department lines 68 article may 9 05 40 51 1993 athos rutgers edu noye midway uchicago edu writes christians also feel sense difference , however , associated weird always talk satan 'll excuse sound , everyone deal differences people understand atheist could hard christian sometimes hard comparable christianity main stream western culture experiences others remember like different christian told time different , fact members church really christians \( though others believed god n't bad atheists \) , small minority nothing compared atheist thing comparable would young child christian surrounded staunch atheists , including parents , actively persecute religious actual punishments , even worse , emotional blackmail would also whole mainstream society side maybe conditions could occured old soviet union country god pledge allegiance doubt even , children taught christians hence must support somewhere sympathy gays growing repressive environments hide sometimes first try deny part 've case rationality instead sexuality forced try repress way pressures different , course , chose beliefs saying choice , born necessity \? please , flames whether gay people choose lifestyle 's elsewhere newsgroup yes atheism born necessity intellectually honest person belief mostly response evidence wishes nothing could choose lie , silent true beliefs could choose believe god christianity could decide ordinary sky looks red still clear i'm equating went gays go however mistake assume everyone goes painful experiences broken happily made stronger , get past must say n't hurt experiences church friends n't become atheists hurt differently i'm sure understand sentence could explain \? without going details violating childhood friends suffice say religion guarantee person happy strong emotionally , repressive upbringing leave scars even , especially , n't get free doubt sane sincere person doubts feel need defend way much happier stronger closet end , someone eloquently put private email , experience liberation rather bill mayne
mserv mozart cc iup edu \( mail server \) subject homosexual issues christianity lines 83 mls panix com \( michael siemon \) writes may 7 01 08 16 1993 14381 athos rutgers edu whitsebd nextwork rose hulman edu \( bryan whitsell \) writes one thinks homosexuality christianity compatible check romans 1 27 corinthians 6 9 timothy 1 10 jude 1 7 ii peter 2 6 9 gen 19 lev 18 22 \( name verses pertain homosexuality \) homosexual christians indeed checked verses used us incredibly perverse interpretations others simply address issues see verses clearly address issues , however , couple seem though require incredibly perverse interpretations order seen condemning homosexuality deceived neither fornicators , idolators , adulterers , effeminate , homosexuals , thieves , covetous , drunkards , revilers , swindlers , shall inherit kingdom god cor 6 9 11 would someone care comment fact seems say fornicators inherit kingdom god \? apply homosexuals \? understand fornication sex outside marriage accurate definition \? thing sex marriage bible \? understanding always new testament blesses sexual intercourse husband wife , however , willing listen scriptural evidence contrary shall lie male one lies female abomination also shall intercourse animal defiled , shall woman stand animal mate perversion lev 18 22 23 notice verse forbidding bestiality immediately follows verse prohibiting appears homosexual intercourse know new testament passages clearly condemn , even mention , intercourse animals argue legitimacy homosexual intercourse believe bible condemns bestiality perversion , , \? , verses would cite prove bestiality perverted sinful \? could verses cite refuted interpreting differently \? one christian \? way , subject sexual desires choose many people would regard perverted sinful , please understand asking questions towards fellow people alternative orientations believe , however , one read bible attitude bible trying say want bible say choose give perverted sexual desires believe bible tries tell , whether like , things sin frustrating times , days really got , n't blame god , blame sin mark 's ambiguity meaning words passage quote liberal conservative sources seem agree homosexual general term homosexuals , likely meaning like homosexual prostitute n't meant think biblical evidence , nature evidence ca n't quote one verse solve things think argument fornication circular homosexuality wrong \? 's fornication fornication \? 're married n't married \? church refuses marriage ceremony church refuse marriage ceremony \? homosexuality wrong order break circle 's got reason think homosexuality wrong clh
todd nickel laurentian ca subject homosexuality issues christiani organization laurentian university lines 13 whitsebd nextwork rose hulman edu \( bryan whitsell \) writes , see way interpreting wrong please tell verses interpreted way read surrounding text exactly asking homosexual community \( proper term \? \) decided christianity homosexual behaviour rather interpret verses guess really looking homosexual response todd
acad3 alaska edu subject people become atheists \? organization university alaska fairbanks lines 21 article may 5 02 50 42 1993 athos rutgers edu , fil sapienza med umich edu \( fil sapienza \) writes interested finding people become atheists believed god god conversing groups , 've often sensed anger hostility though n't mean imply atheists angry hostile , seem one motivation giving faith thus , atheism might result broken ness i'm atheist supreme world know 's wonderful incredible love people things everything n't believe god made believe amazing beautiful life world live
dps nasa kodak com \( dan schaertel , , , \) subject war christians fight \? reply dps nasa kodak com organization eastman kodak company lines 12 article athos rutgers edu , david \( david \) writes personally , think christians n't fight 2 \) christians , supposed defend matt 5 38 48 , heb 10 33 34 3 \) war result sin defense may necessary reaction attack , n't think christians take part trying defend someone else allow killing oppression , obligation protect innocent \?
worf \( lynn \) subject mormon temples organization nasa lines 6 secrecy lds ceremonies clh think christ summed quite nicely said something casting pearls tell people things sacred belittle little belittle
mpaul unl edu \( marxhausen paul \) subject mary 's assumption organization university nebraska lincoln lines 31 hate sound , shot mouth badly net , i'm afraid much material adds feeling assumption mary would better phrased assumptions mary time 've reading mary group , recall reading much mary sound like wishful scant , , scriptural foundation find new testament real portrait christ 's parents human persons honored admired humility submission god 's working , beyond doubt theories dogma accreted around gives image alien inhuman creatures , untouched sin human desire christ truly sanctified , even knew temptation , albeit without submitting also n't see necessity saying holy parents sanctified beyond normal humanity sounds like inability grasp immensity god 's grace incarnated dinary human wo n't start yelling people worshipping mary , etc , since folks told otherwise , think lose part wonder god 's incarnation christ make parents sinless , , , beings paul marxhausen university nebraska lincoln grace happens
noye midway uchicago edu \( vera shanti noyes \) subject serbian genocide work god \? reply noye midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 114 article may 10 05 08 05 1993 athos rutgers edu db7n andrew cmu edu \( andrew byler \) writes believe predestination course believe predestination 's biblical doctrine romans 8 28 30 shows \( among passages \) furthermore , church always taught predestination , beginning really \? may right , 'd like proof far know \( div school student ! \) catholic church seem accept predestination told beware greeks bearing gifts reference doctrine seems curious result human beings held responsible actions ! 'll answer deal minute say believe predestination mean believe free men freely choose course life , also affected grace god however , unlike , hold grace , otherwise end idiocy denying universal saving god \( 1 timothy 2 4 \) right n't really seem like predestination , 'll continue 're saying god must give enough grace saved elect , , predestined receive grace final , guarantees heaven mean without grace ca n't saved , means god obstinacy chose give , knowing would need , freely chosen hell really confusing , especially since still believe christ jesus died us obstinacy seems like awfully convoluted way account couple verses , really biblically supported opinion \? others \? people saved saved grace god , effort , god disposed , predestined become saints perish everlasting fire perish hardened heart chose perish thus , deserving god punishment , rejected creator , sinned working holy spirit god uses grace like spreads 's needed n't \? saved saved , nothing hmmmm yes , god judge mete punishment last judgement well , would hold god certainly gives everybody blessing good done \( even little \) , ca n't bless next life , blesses one although realize doctrine originally intended cause social problems , ends supposed sort sign someone elect , like lots children success work , good life earth go around thinking n't doomed hell way , though , sounds like opposite idea doomed hell great life earth 's almost like converse believe responsibility punished die 're saying get die direct bearing live \? strange punish next life , chastised one purgatory sins every sin temporal punishment , thus , god punish unless satisfaction made \( cf 2 samuel 12 13 14 , david 's sin adultery murder forgiven , still punished death child \) need point idea punishment god 's judgement quite bible sodom , moses barred holy land , slaughter cannanites , , jerusalem 70 ad , etc sin either punished later \? 's sort half punished \? grey areas doctrine \? stuff deleted stop slaughter innocent \( cf proverbs 24 11 12 \) , mean christians support war bosnia u even u n involved \? think , , disagree foreign adventures general case bosnia , frankly see excuse us getting militarily involved , would war blessed , peacemakers lord said , actions bosnia must peace , war unrelated anything justify us idea \( well , idea \) would would intervene establish peace stop atrocities i'm suggesting n't really understand mean war course , although see merit jumping first opportunity \( say kuwait \? \) happen big country lot resources \( well lot debt \) , gives us responsibility world , whether like wwii , well vietnam , us yet another difference opinion andy byler thank answering hope n't take comments flames , instead expressions interest vera clock ! bind unto today vera noyes religion ! strong name noye midway uchicago edu ! trinity disclaimer lard st patrick 's breastplate disclaim \?
hayesstw risc1 unisa ac za \( steve hayes \) subject question virgin mary organization university south africa lines 25 article may 9 05 39 11 1993 athos rutgers edu db7n andrew cmu edu \( andrew byler \) writes noted monophysite egypt syria also hold belief part divine revelation , even though broke away unity chruch 451 ad rejecting council chalcedon might argued protestants catholics orthodox made belief , monophysites , put big hole notion , also hold belief , split chruch belief first writing \( far known , much lost time fathers \) belief churches egypt syria \( \) monophysite false , belief often held council chalcedon misunderstandings exacerbated political factors , thus led schism schism way healed steve hayes , department missiology editorial department univ south africa , p box 392 , pretoria , 0001 south africa internet hayesstw risc1 unisa ac za fidonet 5 7101 20 steve hayes p5 f22 n7101 z5 fidonet org faq missiology study christian mission part faculty theology unisa
dan ingres com \( rose arose \) subject sj mercury 's reference fundamentalist christian parents organization representing views lines 23 monday , may 10 morning edition san jose mercury news article sandra gonzales top page 12a explained convicted killer david edwin mason 's troubled childhood saying , raised oakland san lorenzo strict fundamentalist christian parents , mason beaten child tied workbench cloth accidently mother walked bedroom window , court records show san jose mercury news come article starting raised oakland mexican parents , mason beaten , face would red anger injustice done mexican family members mexican community whole i'm sure sandra gonzales would equally upset open like practiced encouraged san jose mercury news pointed christian community \? good christian continue purchase newspapers buy advertising kind newspaper \? really bad journalism i'm upset
danc procom com \( daniel cossack \) subject christianity repeated lives organization procom technology , inc lines 32 smayo world std com \( scott mayo \) writes gerry palo writes nothing christianity precludes idea repeated lives earth n't say somewhere appointed man die , judgement \? n't concordance dim memory appears somewhere bible given fairly specific context judgement , 'd say less decides issue heb 9 27 clh depends verse read least two meanings word 1 \) one time , 2 \) time \( e upon time \) note previous verse , word used second meaning , also following verse , used second meaning greek , sure , uses different words two meanings english word greek scholar , i'm sure someone verify greek word used meaning second meaning used , verse interpreted given men die \( beginning adam \) , gift atonement offered jesus christ judgement made available , longer death , life christ daniel cossack danc procom com , compuserve com senior software engineer dupont drive , irvine , ca procom technology , inc 1 714 852 1000
revdak netcom com \( andrew kille \) subject question virgin mary organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 39 andrew byler \( db7n andrew cmu edu \) wrote however greatly mary , quite obvious way god even part god equal god assumption blessed mother , meant close identification redemptive work christ , assumed \( note ascend \) body soul heaven , thus one , along elijah , enoch , moses \( maybe \? \? \? \? \) already perfected heaven obviously , virgin mary far superior glorification previously mentioned personages said , provocative thought answer job logical consistency papal declaration cannot surpassed leaves protestantism nothing man 's religion allows metaphysical representation woman protestantism obviously given sufficient attention signs times point equality women equality requires anchored figure divine woman , bride christ person christ cannot replaced organization , bride cannot placed church feminine , like masculine , demands equally personal representation assumption , however , according dogmatic view , mean mary attained status goddess , although , heaven , functionally par christ , king rate , position satisfies need archetype par 753 4 jung stick psychology rather getting theology jung made clear talking psychology , theology comments psychological image god function human , actual existence nature god revdak netcom com
swf elsegundoca ncr com \( stan friesen \) subject major views trinity reply swf elsegundoca ncr com lines 43 article may 5 02 52 59 1993 athos rutgers edu , write yes comments long enough n't want repeat , 'll send via email back author certainly intended description three similar deities , though certainly see would look way thanks letter , comments helped last comment , certainly realize intended sound way still trying understand spiritual truly one three time descriptions either platonic sound like special pleading \( sort , appear three seperate beings ways , really one , trust \) neither fact , far descriptions trinity makes sense modalistic ones , modalistic economic trinitarianism accept three aspects intrinsic nature god , perhaps lean towards latter trying , , see anybody come another description orthodox believable sarima teradata com \( formerly tdatirv ! sarima \) stanley friesen elsegundoca ncr com fear orthodox theologians overly love paradox , extent well meaning people think 've flat confused 's problem things 3 1 , e g 3 different parts 1 father , son , holy spirit n't exactly parts god , parts things distinguished physical separation three persons omnipresent , obviously n't physically separate 're way different aspects , modes , whatever , one god accept economic trinitarianism , 's possible n't substantive difference standard view possible n't find neo platonic explanation illuminating \? clh
petch gvg47 gvg tek com \( chuck \) subject daily verse lines 4 peace , made two one destroyed barrier , dividing wall hostility , ephesians 2 14
nabil cae wisc edu \( nabil ayoub \) subject monophysites mike walker organization u wisconsin madison college engineering lines 83 article may 10 05 08 01 1993 athos rutgers edu db7n andrew cmu edu \( andrew byler \) writes nabil ayoub writes final note , oriental orthodox eastren orthodox sign common statement christology , monophysitism condemned coptic orthodox church believe monophysitism sorry ! coptic church believe energy christ \? one two \( e human divine \) wills energies also , objection ot copts pope rome \( e coptic catholic church \) \? reject supreme jurisdiction st peter \( blessed st john mark , bishop alexandria translator \) predecessors \? infallibility \? things perhaps \? first set questions \( regarding energy christ \) quote relevant part statement signed eastern \( \) oriental \( non \) orthodox scholars years ago \( families orthodox churches \) 1 families agreed condemning heresy families confess logos , second person holy trinity , begotten father ages consubstantial , incarnate born virgin mary theotokos fully consubstantial us , perfect man soul , body mind \( nu upsilon zeta \) crucified , died , buried rose dead third day , ascended heavenly father , sits right hand father lord creation pentecost , coming holy spirit manifested church body look forward coming fullness glory , according scriptures 2 families condemn heresy crypto nestorianism cyrus agree sufficient merely say christ consubstantial father us , nature god nature man necessary affirm also logos , nature god , became nature man , incarnation fullness time 3 families agree hypostasis logos became composite divine nature natural energy , common father holy spirit , created human nature , assumed incarnation made , natural energy 4 families agree natures proper energies wills united naturally without confusion , without change , without division without separation , distinguished thought alone 5 families agree wills acts always one hypostasis logos incarnate guess adresses question adequately second set questions , afraid irrelevant discussion \( least point view \) monophysitism see relate topic discussing \( start endless orthodox rc debate plan engage \) brief answer questions , position coptic orthodox church regarding roman , jurisdiction , , etc exactly orthodox churches peace , nabil nabil ayoub engine research center dept mechanical engineering university wisconsin madison email ayoub wisc edu ' '
revdak netcom com \( andrew kille \) subject god , morality , massacres organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 12 without quoting length preceeding post , 'd like say find much appropriate way dealing issues like holocaust bosnia asserting god punishing activity god always redemptive , means restoring lost , broken , distorted , god , , distortion , genocide , poverty , etc , nonetheless capable , willing , active restore , heal , mend , revdak netcom com
nabil cae wisc edu \( nabil ayoub \) subject monophysites mike walker organization u wisconsin madison college engineering lines 47 article may 9 05 38 52 1993 athos rutgers edu moderator comments chalcedon compromise two groups , alexandrians adopted language intended acceptable moderates camps , ruling extremes agree extremes heretical however course complex politics time , appears people got rejected n't intend heresy , simply used language understood even seem jointed compromise reasons doctrine groups descended supposedly heretical camps posting discussed descendants alexandrians also remaining nestorians like current called monophysites , reason believe current called nestorians heretical either sheltered nestorius saw unfair treatment , claim adopt heresies , fact seem follow moderate representatives tradition clh big difference status refer alexandrians \( actually , includes oriental orthodox churches copts \) nestorians oriental orthodox churches never even shelter \( monophysitism \) contrary , condemned \( still condemn \) heresy eastren \( \) orthodox church held talks oriental \( non \) started 30 years ago still till today , many issues christology \( details inter orthodox dialogue , case anyone interested \) see alexandrians nestorians similar position peace , nabil nabil ayoub engine research center dept mechanical engineering university wisconsin madison email ayoub wisc edu ' '
hayesstw risc1 unisa ac za \( steve hayes \) subject nicene creed \( major views trinity \) organization university south africa lines 23 article may 9 05 39 19 1993 athos rutgers edu db7n andrew cmu edu \( andrew byler \) writes called creed athanasius , however , always western creed , always filioque orthodox said accept says , exception filioque , use course orthodox delete filioque nicene creed \( n't begin \) , certainly athanasian creed , beginning called athanasian creed never recognized standard faith orthodox church introduced \( without filioque \) certain service books 17th 18th centuries time strong western influence steve hayes , department missiology editorial department univ south africa , p box 392 , pretoria , 0001 south africa internet hayesstw risc1 unisa ac za fidonet 5 7101 20 steve hayes p5 f22 n7101 z5 fidonet org faq missiology study christian mission part faculty theology unisa
dan ingres com \( rose arose \) subject earthquake prediction organization representing views lines 75 mserv mozart cc iup edu \( mail server \) writes ok , days back , included message posted stating believe everything heart may 3 , 1993 , city portland , oregon country united states america hit catastrophic disastrous earthquake , know come pass n't think 's particularly glorifying god say things like well , think lord telling , statements seem attempt get spiritual thrill guess happen come true , without risking guilt false prophecy fail come pass believe genuine prophecy ever like comments \? agree people misled believe thus sayeth lord innuendo opinion speculation speak directly lord given something say , say , declare thus sayeth lord , 'd better know certain without shadow doubt correct spiritual condition relationship lord receive prophecy absolutely certain , , without tiniest shadow doubt possibility misled imaginations hope gaining recognition misled devil followers mistakes area costly dangerous , greatest fears area would following 1 people would misled 2 people would lose respect christianity 3 true prophecy would clouded false prophecies 4 god call prophet misrepresent god 's word , calling would lost forever god 's word would command people never listen fear words would false prophet bridges would burnt forever perhaps could repent saved , could never prophet god light , critical speak lord says speak silent lord says silent lest deprive world god 's word hide either inappropriate , cowardly silence false statements , critically important remain close lord , word , prayer , filled spirit god know difference day age , sinners spout mouths left right judging one another , claiming rights , denying rights indeed belong others , demanding equal respect gods world , every form promises make one feel good 's time christians give example honesty stands contrast backdrop falsehood say , thus sayeth lord , happens pray , prayer answered prayed right say 're christians , really mean dan deplore horrible crime child murder want prevention , merely punishment must reach root evil practiced whose souls revolt dreadful deed mater motive , love ease , desire save suffering unborn innocent , woman awfully guilty commits deed oh ! thrice guilty drove desperation impelled crime susan b anthony , revolution july 8 , 1869
shellgate ! llo uu4 psi com \( larry l overacker \) subject major views trinity \( filioque \) organization shell oil lines 25 article may 6 00 35 38 1993 geneva rutgers edu steve hayes f22 n7101 z5 fidonet org writes 04 may 93 , andrew byler writes athanasian creed evidence used orthodox churches \? far know purely western , like apostles' creed orthodox churches use symbol faith , commonly called nicene creed seen used orthodox church , although ca n't recall found odd , say least also , object statement orthodox delete filioque original form creed creed originally contain phrase , present greek original , hangs desk intending start flame war n't need delete n't larry overacker \( llo shell com \) lawrence overacker shell oil company , information center houston , tx \( 713 \) 245 2965 llo shell com
shellgate ! llo uu4 psi com \( larry l overacker \) subject hell organization shell oil lines 38 ofm comments problem jesus use hell threat n't sound like extreme fire brimstone preachers , n't think wants people live abject fear talks lot people found unworthy , mentions hell number times agree might pleasant think n't exist certainly n't agree god sort tortures people forever much afraid really life death spiritual struggle going , possible people lose serious way clh disagreement serious struggle going jesus typically uses consequences threat 's quite different hell classic \( tm \) \) jesus n't sound like usual hell fire type preacher attracts people example jesus preaching parable lazarus dives , parable ! case , point fear based response christ freeing , life choice n't good news meaningful sense plenty good reasons follow jesus nothing fear literal hell , still pertain overcoming present struggle god opposition faith based fear built rock , found faith , ice fear removed , would foundation 's basically matters think many christians solid basis relating living incarnate god cannot fully open working god life response god motivated fear larry overacker \( llo shell com \) lawrence overacker shell oil company , information center houston , tx \( 713 \) 245 2965 llo shell com
revdak netcom com \( andrew kille \) subject serbian genocide work god \? organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 15 might want think attitude holocaust reading deuteronomy chapter 28 contrary , holocaust , would cautious deuteronomy 28 everything happens accordance god 's \( might guess side predestination issue \) never assume evil punishment god , especially speaking evil falls someone else life , work discern hand god evil see discussion earlier luke 13 revdak netcom com \( \)
dt4 cs hub ucsb edu \( david e goggin \) subject dreams body incidents lines 38 hey folks , i'm fairly new groups , tho' heard 'd like get comments question mind lot morals ethics apply dreams body incidents \? normal dreams , ca n't control anything , obviously n't morally responsible actions contrive control action dreams oobe , seems like morality applies , seem 3 alternatives 1 \) dreams oobes totally mental phenomena case morality applies beyond might called , , trying think anything evil , overly sexy violent thoughts 2 \) dreams oobes reality \( e \) evidence often dreams oobes sometimes done common one person mark objective fact 1 people report objective experience case , interpersonal morality ethics applies dreams oobes waking life 3 \) like \( 2 \) , assume though oobe environs real existence , different moral ethics apply , \( maybe different \) moral laws apply one cases truth , anyone know another alternative \? respond post email thanks much dt
muirm argon gas organpipe uug arizona edu \( maxwell c muir \) subject people become atheists \? organization university arizona , tucson lines 161 article may 9 05 41 56 1993 athos rutgers edu gt7122b prism gatech edu \( randal lee nicholas mandock \) writes article may 7 01 09 44 1993 14556 athos rutgers edu muirm argon gas organpipe uug arizona edu \( maxwell c muir \) writes , would happy proven wrong believing atheism problem , proven wrong mentioning nonsense psychology \) atheism , bob muir asks following question smiley part atheism , see realize statement says mentioning nonsense atheism \? hard defend claim making , included last two sentences post mentioned first please address substance post rather rejecting hand , sometimes ambiguous nature english , may wording please clarify mean call statements atheism nonsense \? , care back claim \? sound broken \? answer affirmative ok , start amatuer broken \? politically correct christians besieged group permitted luxury arrogance \? yawn excuse , n't recall portion post called christians arrogant quote , remember calling christianity silly following information nine years old thought also said find faith intellectually dishonest would like see sort proof god 's existence define faith belief absense proof , btw also , subscribe mentioned see fundies types , answer question finally , 'd hardly call christianity country seldom see christians ridiculed merely religion wearing crosses christian bumper stickers n't know sure , course , say n't seen happening seen happening homosexual friends beat , preached people claim christ 's followers know sort thing n't practiced majority christians , vocal minority n't see victimization christians question bob world would self respecting atheist want subscribe christian news group \? implication self respecting , course i'm student psychology , btw , student creative writing linguistics , literary analysis forte also , implications see improper , please let know i'm i'm little atheist seem think atheists occur n't think know everything maybe someone say something change life \? read posts see atheist decide time poke someone n't deserve respect \? aw , geez i'm sorry , probably getting back little high , 's nonsense thing really annoys figure see first reactions , though , since true reactions question , feather version seek sorts knowledge 's came university yes , looking religion \( well , sorta , idea kind christian \) outside , hopefully objective view 've trying ask reasoned questions , genuinely n't know answers , saw question directed atheists figured would answer , speculate atheist motives want \( hence amatuer psychology crack \) , without atheist , ca n't sure even one atheist 's motive i'm hoping people really want know trying show actually checked several religions actually read pamphlets people offer actually think things instead , i'm still faced implication atheism kind aberration broken people atheist try flip side posit atheism natural state broken people theists offer proof many people witness horrible lives picked soon discovered religion , religion regional \( people n't follow religion areas , would mix \) , many terrorists claim theistic motives , theists tend angry challenged alt atheism religions successful \? much suffering world , breaks people 's uncomfortable situation whichever way look , another reason i'm , try see flip side thinking \( also watchdog logical fallacies \) difficult enough time keeping , think know something subject implication atheists ca n't possibly know anything christianity probably jumping shadows , think reaction somewhat justified , first post suggested atheists broken , hostile people post confirms someone else believes bob reminds roommate order disbelieve atheism , says need proven wrong well , got strong atheist , feel lack evidence , especially something like omnipotent , implies lack existence however , n't met strong atheist yet said nothing could ever persuade call seeker like , n't weak atheism ignore , though atheists simply say n't believe god rather position believe god \( \) exist weak atheist , atheism disbelieve , n't actively believe atheism \( think confusing , try figuring difference protestants methodists atheist point view \) another fallacy many theists seem , everyone believes something \( followed everyone faith something \) guess \? atheism ends moment i'm shown proof god 's existence really much ask \? well , n't even waste time trying well , guess wo n't succeed converting supposition fail convince \? \( amatuer \) \? \) tell 'll take word told find faith intellectually dishonest note speak find faith honest , show unable reconcile far maybe 's i'm broken \? tell invisible living garden take word accept , fundamentally different mind really would like know think ask proof assertion god exists logical physical proofs , please 'll discuss nature god response , tells say atheist 's prayer prayer \? ! uh , oh , 'll revoke atheist club card ! \) good luck , bob , best regards good luck , well , , apologize inferences made inaccurate randal lee nicholas mandock catechist gt7122b prism gatech edu garlic toast forever , max \( bob \) muir note abbreviation quoted always fault poster sometimes order get posting 50 rule inews clh
mussack austin ibm com \( christopher mussack \) subject atheists hell lines 74 article may 2 09 50 29 1993 geneva rutgers edu , trajan cwis unomaha edu \( stephen mcintyre \) writes article apr 20 03 01 40 1993 geneva rutgers edu trajan cwis unomaha edu \( stephen mcintyre \) writes besides , would rather spend eternity hell beside god heaven knowing even one man would spend eternal life scorched wrongdoings display 've fear god punishment point play poker monopoly money bet anything want sha n't go heaven would sense humanity compassion fellow man exactly christianity missionary nature , need irritate 8 \) god one , neither evidence god strictly love people wrote bible bible written , evidence love , cultural bias poor answer need n't rebut pull old bait switch think use bible judge man , god mean , moral intuition n't like described bible , realize things going avoid semantic arguments cause evil ask fight \? specifically , everyone , including n't like genocide bible , genocide goes right \? move beyond question hell , realize many people right suffering think hell n't fair willing sacrifice everything deny existence , life n't fair \? right young mother three little kids n't know get day right sixth right old man friends money fix tv instead n't god help ask n't help think correct challenge christian n't live life compassion seem possess want evidence god find someone making difference , someone admire , someone tough times come head ask person ask vietnam vet battle kept mind ask woman pregnant 15 , kept baby successful business woman ask doctor operated 1 1 2 pound baby wo n't christians , even might call religious , something common god defined bible , god defined people 's hearts n't matter ca n't give intellectual assent description 've heard , 're wrong anyway compassion already feel heart step right direction follow instead come back read bible 'll see thing described nothing else makes sense , hang idea , god love would say something similar , reverse order love god good , guess work grammar 8 \) chris mussack
mmh dcs qmw ac uk \( matthew huntbach \) subject two people married god 's e organization computer science dept , qmw , university london , uk lines 43 article may 7 01 08 49 1993 athos rutgers edu gt7122b prism gatech edu \( randal lee nicholas mandock \) writes capital punishment feel way god god love , god justice christians instruments earth , expected true mandate given us lord judge actions fellow man favorite scriptural reference regard romans 13 1 7 let every person subordinate higher authorities , authority except god , exist established god therefore , whoever authority opposes god appointed , oppose bring judgment upon views reflect teaching roman catholic church would say extent roman catholic church neither approves disapproves capital punishment , confirmed recent catechism , though many rcs rather surprised upset capital punishment explicitly condemned , catholic , see opposition capital punishment much opposition abortion reverence life uk , anti abortion case often let explicit link political left make anti abortionists pro tendency condemn people hold views hypocrites feel many anti abortionists also vocal opposition capital punishment pro life line , would end kneejerk association anti abortion right wing thing , get many think seriously issue \( plenty pro abortion equally kneejerk left wing reason \) think biblical quote automatically taken support capital punishment take roman catholic opposed abortion , would still wrong , something objected even authority matthew huntbach
cs nps navy mil \( timothy \) subject homosexuality issues christiani organization naval postgraduate school , monterey ca lines 32 cited passages covered depth faq group particular faq \( 've forgotten author \) discusses traditional vs pro homosexual interpretations passages indicates points strong textual support perhaps moderator might give instructions retrieving faq topic \? btw , issue , dealt , timely one major presbyterian churches california \( st andrews rich neighborhood \) withholding support synod \( amounts 10 budget synod , covers southern ca hawaii \) support pro homosexual lobbying group \( lazarus project \) terminated came news report cnn yesterday corrections welcome tim think 's time post faq issue throughout presbyterian church side , one major churches cincinnati homosexual elders , ignored instructions church rochester judicial commission said could n't install homosexual pastor made evangelist situations , well one describe , appear stable certainly major topic general assembly next month church ca n't come solution let people live , think 're end split clearly neither side wants , think 'll get pushed actions sides clh
creps lateran ucs indiana edu \( stephen creps \) subject question virgin mary organization indiana university lines 20 article may 5 02 52 03 1993 athos rutgers edu revdak netcom com \( andrew kille \) writes observation although bodily assumption basis bible , carl jung declared one important pronouncements church recent years , implied inclusion feminine godhead jung may said , way speaking catholic church dogma assumption way means mary considered god part godhead therefore implies thing feminine general also jung 's statement makes sound though dogma announced blue also incorrect , dogma formulation always part tradition dogma always believed , formally defined assumption declared ex cathedra statement steve creps , indiana university creps lateran ucs indiana edu
shellgate ! llo uu4 psi com \( larry l overacker \) subject hell organization shell oil lines 21 article may 7 01 08 07 1993 athos rutgers edu smayo world std com \( scott mayo \) writes granting , think christianity , relationship jesus love god one 's soul , stands fine without hell n't believe , see evidence scripture , hell presented stick beat people towards heaven certainly agree last paragraph also , jesus statements hell treated totally symbolic , parables , much teaching 's enough hell earth freed following jesus rest n't fact free hell best gift god offers eternal life begins us wait start divine nature path larry overacker \( llo shell com \) lawrence overacker shell oil company , information center houston , tx \( 713 \) 245 2965 llo shell com
eggertj moses mit edu \( jim eggert x6127 g41 \) subject robin lane fox 's unauthorized version \? reply eggertj mit edu organization mit lincoln lab group 41 lines 19 article may 7 01 09 39 1993 athos rutgers edu nuscc nus sg \( lee kok kiong james \) writes mpaul unl edu \( marxhausen paul \) writes mom passed along lengthy review clipped regarding robin lane fox 's book unauthorized version truth fiction bible , 've read book parts quite typical regarding criticism bible inaccurate historical document , alt , etc carries typical responses , give insight historian \( one n't \) work 've able understand appreciate arguments , something like , mentions certain events , event , robin lane fox historian written several history books , perhaps recent one might remember search alexander also written edited several books jim eggertj mit edu \( jim eggert \)
mussack austin ibm com \( christopher mussack \) subject atheists hell lines 41 summarize questioning someone said would rather spend eternity hell beside god heaven knowing even one man would spend eternal life scorched wrongdoings described horrible hell compared statement jesus' suffering cross order prevent people going hell kenneth engel challenges happen jesus \? n't think , heard lived one day suffering died wages sin paragraph , jesus pay sins , \? wimp admit never liked metaphor jesus paying sins sense many christians accept literal point god understands suffering go , intellectually like watch tv , really understands , feel pain fact manifested jesus' life argue someone history might suffered jesus , think horrible torture crucifixion , think cases betrayal fruitless effort leading worse despair , main point jesus trenches us , everyone , whatever least humanity , whatever least humanity , reconcile existence hell beyond capabilities , n't goal 'd surprised see moderator let one , thankfully moderator surprising seriously want reasonable explanation read must admit description faith explanation , perhaps 's , hopefully 's chris mussack
mussack austin ibm com \( christopher mussack \) subject major views trinity lines 20 ca n't someone describe someone 's trinity simple sentences words common meaning \? need kick butt god , need assurance reality truth , pray god father need friend , someone put arm around cry , pray jesus need strength wisdom get difficult situation , pray holy spirit realize probably make people cringe , say \? think doctrine trinity attempt reconcile jesus god distinct god , described bible wonder jesus hindu different wording would chris mussack
creps lateran ucs indiana edu \( stephen creps \) subject question virgin mary organization indiana university lines 14 article may 5 02 53 08 1993 athos rutgers edu ddavis cass ma02 bull com \( dave davis \) writes since mary free exactly die end \( dogmatic says \) assumed heaven dogma assumption state whether mary died physical death taken heaven catholics free believe wish , whether taken still alive , died lean somewhat toward latter steve creps , indiana university creps lateran ucs indiana edu
noye midway uchicago edu \( vera shanti noyes \) subject people become atheists \? reply noye midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 53 article may 9 05 41 56 1993 athos rutgers edu gt7122b prism gatech edu \( randal lee nicholas mandock \) writes much stuff deleted question bob world would self respecting atheist want subscribe christian news group \? difficult enough time keeping , think know something subject excuse , makes think 's atheist n't know anything christianity \? \? \? \? \( albeit limited \) experience atheists often ones know bible , searched end end answers christian , n't mean consider authority religion different perspective \( biased favor , naturally \) \) seems quite obvious subscribed , may infer says looking explanation question motives anyway least \( although dislike kind logic \) , one could hope see light , fear , give positive picture christians bob reminds roommate order disbelieve atheism , says need proven wrong well , n't even waste time trying tell 'll take word response , tells say atheist 's prayer regard , guess n't really feel sentiments order proven faith lot search bible cover cover answers wo n't necessarily get 're looking course n't help anyone n't already faith big catch 22 discovered quite recently ran agnostic looking explanation faith quickly discovered could give nothing life story description nature faith personal thing attempt prove facts behind must questioned good luck , bob , best regards likewise matter believe randal lee nicholas mandock catechist gt7122b prism gatech edu clock ! bind unto today vera noyes religion ! strong name noye midway uchicago edu ! trinity disclaimer lard st patrick 's breastplate disclaim \?
shellgate ! llo uu4 psi com \( larry l overacker \) subject hell organization shell oil lines 21 article may 9 05 38 07 1993 athos rutgers edu u0mrm csc liv ac uk \( r \) writes article may 5 02 51 25 1993 athos rutgers edu , shellgate ! llo uu4 psi com \( larry l overacker \) writes fear based religion faith relationship one made us mean anyone christian avoid hell n't really christian \? sounds like 's reason , 'd inclined doubt whether profess christianity relationship faith based upon trust fear trust generally incompatible motivation fear , room trust \? , 's room faith fear precludes trust , ca n't faith larry overacker \( llo shell com \) lawrence overacker shell oil company , information center houston , tx \( 713 \) 245 2965 llo shell com
shellgate ! llo uu4 psi com \( larry l overacker \) subject deuterocanonicals , esp sirach organization shell oil lines 23 ddavis cass ma02 bull com \( dave davis \) deutero canonical books added much later church 's history spiritual quality rest scripture believe church added books guided spirit sort discussion ultimately ends apocryphal books septuagint part canon used greek speaking churches inception church added later \( much later \) common misconception preference hebrew canon greek canon later innovation church need guided add books since part faith received apostles passed church larry overacker \( llo shell com \) lawrence overacker shell oil company , information center houston , tx \( 713 \) 245 2965 llo shell com
poram ihlpb att com subject deuterocanonicals , esp sirach organization lines 86 article may 7 01 09 00 1993 athos rutgers edu revdak netcom com \( andrew kille \) writes dave davis \( ddavis cass ma02 bull com \) wrote lots deleted , generally agree inherently defensible argument inclusion exclusion books think everyone would agree principles cannot consistently applied useful principles , exclude \( accord authority scripture \) would appear require reasons might reasons \? lets talk principles accept god sets standards ought included scripture ask 1 authoritative \? 2 prophetic \? 3 authentic \? 4 dynamic \? 5 received , collected , read used \? counts , apocrapha falls short glory god quote unger 's bible dictionary apocrapha 1 abound historical geographical inaccuracies anachronisms 2 teach doctrines false foster practices variance sacred scripture 3 resort literary types display subject matter styling keeping sacred scripture 4 lack distinctive elements give genuine scripture divine character , prophetic power poetic religious feeling interim conclusion protestant exclusion \( least one \) writings one one hears often excluded reformation , appears reason many people continue exclude problem argument lies assumption hebrew canon included apocrapha first place , n't sixteenth century luther co threw jewish council mentioned previously n't accept , reformation protestants good historical precedence actions jerome translated apocrapha protest , literally dead included catholic canon simple fact protestant exclusion , roman inclusion , orthodox inclusion still books , definition closed canon decision community faith standard collection scripture shall community traditions men whether one considers problem depends community happens , accept define authority within personally believe concept closed canon , whether catholic , protestant , orthodox one developed rather late history church , served church well view words warn everyone hears words prophecy book anyone adds anything , god add plagues described book anyone takes away book prophecy , god take away share tree life holy city \( rev 22 18 9 \) surely sets standard man made traditions also noteworthy consider jesus' attitude argument pharisees ot canon \( john 10 31 6 \) , explained followers road emmaus law , prophets psalms referred ot division scripture \( luke 24 44 \) , well luke 11 51 taking genesis chronicles \( jewish order would say genesis malachi \) scripture see dr lee macdonald 's formation christian biblical canon \( abingdon , 1988 \) clear faithful examination origins issues canon familiar book arguments might like consider found chapter 3 josh mcdowell 's evidence demands verdict barney resson many shall run fro , knowledge shall increase \( daniel \)
sun075 ! gerry palo uunet uu net \( gerry palo \) subject christianity repeated lives lines 100 article may 7 01 08 04 1993 athos rutgers edu smayo world std com \( sc ott mayo \) writes gerry palo writes nothing christianity precludes idea repeated lives earth n't say somewhere appointed man die , judgement \? n't concordance dim memory appears somewhere bible given fairly specific context judgement , 'd say less decides issue heb 9 27 clh indeed , immediate context nasb 26 otherwise , would needed suffer often since foundation world manifested put away sin sacrifice 27 inasmuch appointed men die , comes judgement 28 christ also , offered bear sins many , shall appear second time , bear sin , eagerly await first point verse part even larger context , subject destiny individual human soul rather singular nature christ 's sacrifice , , fulfillment law fallen mankind rudolf detail christianity reincarnation thrust passage context liken one time incarnation sacrifice christ mankind individual experience human death repeated emphasized , highlights singularity christ 's deed one thing certain refute claims christ comparison human experience die , judgement \( note judgement , judgement word judgement hebrews 9 27 one passage often quoted defense doctrine bible denies reincarnation point , would emphasize passages \( arguably \) speak , invariably talking something , apparent denial reincarnation either inferred , , case hebrews , taken literally deposited implied context , namely doctrine destiny human death considered seriously bible essentially silent fate individual human death last day take passages could possibly interpreted mean single earth life , arguable passages point , arguably , tion matthew 11 14 john 9 2 continue debate individual scraps scripture might , indeed discuss wanted introduce discussion approach idea repeated earth lives , unlike hindu , buddhist new age teachings , takes full divinity , singular incarnation , death , burial , resurrection , second coming christ savior mankind accountability individual deeds reality fall sin consequences redemption man sin christ resurrection body , last judgement taken larger sense , many serious questions take entirely different perspective e g destiny died sins christ came relationship faith grace works , meaning deathbed conversion , meaning sacraments , many things propose answer questions simple doctrine convenience , discussion takes different dimension , opinion one truly worthy man , earth , creator redeemer many deep questions continue deep , meaning second death , whole christian doctrine would apply larger perspective human existence deeply believe things bible speak things concerned christ also indicated things would come know future , including things disciples \( therefore others \) could bear yet idea human capacity growth knowledge , individual one lifetime , whole humanity , also takes great meaning realize growth spirit long term process bible meant codify spiritual knowledge one place forever , proclaim gospel incarnation redeeming deed christ taking gospel greater context , genesis revelation , salvation \( healing \) becomes , end man 's beginning last judgement new heaven earth follow become gerry palo \( 73237 2006 compuserve com \)
whitsebd nextwork rose hulman edu \( bryan whitsell \) subject divorce reply whitsebd nextwork rose hulman edu organization news service rose hulman lines 28 article may 9 05 42 10 1993 athos rutgers edu leland stanford edu \( david shao \) writes article may 7 01 10 03 1993 athos rutgers edu crs carson u washington edu \( cliff slaughterbeck \) writes along way , married , happily , wonderful supportive husband gave birth two sons still , everything perfect jane , since could never open deepest part soul husband one interesting things jane said whole discussion homosexuality goes bedroom found much able deep , committed relationship woman man sex , mind , part whole relationship sounds like problem problem opening husband lesbian \? , couple supposed open n't feel comfortable opening husband gets divorce comes conclusion lesbian anyone gets make sure would feel comfortable open deepest part soul husband sex , mind , part whole relationship think diffrent man might problem christ 's love , bryan
eugene bigelow ebay sun com \( geno \) subject doctrine original sin reply eugene bigelow ebay sun com organization sun microsystems , inc lines 21 eugene bigelow writes n't bible say god fair god sic \? true , possibly fair infants \? andrew byler writes mean fair \? god , giving everyone deserve infants sin time conception \( cf romans 5 12 , psalm 1 7 \) , cannot possibly merit heaven , purgatory purging temporal punishment sins , impossible sin forgiven st augustine said , invent original sin , catholic faith holds ancient time , deny , without doubt follower new heresy \( de , lib 11 c 12 \) fair punish , rest humanity adam eve \? suppose parents committed crime born one day cops come door throw jail would really think fair \? know would n't
eugene bigelow ebay sun com \( geno \) subject doctrine original sin reply eugene bigelow ebay sun com organization sun microsystems , inc lines 10 joseph h buehler writes obviously applies equally well infants adults , since souls infants must baptized , therefore , cannot enter heaven need form life , cannot enter heaven saying baptism nothing asking jesus come heart accepting savior , ritual must go enable us enter heaven \?
carlson ab24 larc nasa gov \( ann carlson \) subject homosexuality issues christianity organization nasa langley research center , hampton , va usa lines 26 article may 7 01 08 16 1993 14381 athos rutgers edu , whitsebd nextwork rose hulman edu \( bryan whitsell \) writes one thinks homosexuality christianity compatible check romans 1 27 corinthians 6 9 timothy 1 10 jude 1 7 ii peter 2 6 9 gen 19 lev 18 22 \( name verses pertain homosexuality \) anyone thinks gay christianity compatible check dignity , integrity , light presbyterian churches , affirmation , mcc churches , etc meet gay christians , find , pray , discuss scripture , form opinion dr ann b carlson \( b carlson larc nasa gov \) ms 366 nasa langley research center ` \) hampton , va 23681 0001
mserv mozart cc iup edu \( mail server \) subject mormon temples lines 20 cheap cs utah edu \( jay \) writes material deleted object idea christianity involve secrets kind mormon scholars provided historical evidence early christian practices parallel mormon temple ceremonies obviously one choose whether subscribe historical interpretation , mormon practice without precedent christianity deletions n't necessarily object secrecy question , since see biblical reason aspect christian worship involve secrecy interested claim early christian practices parallel mormon temple ceremonies could give example \? also , parallel mormon ceremonies \? n't mormon ceremonies restore original christian practices \? n't whole point joseph smith 's stated mission \? mark
eugene bigelow ebay sun com \( geno \) subject two people married god 's e reply eugene bigelow ebay sun com organization sun microsystems , inc lines 20 sas upenn edu \( james r blankenship \) writes reason death penalty revenge \? \? going try refute position , try refute whole position speaking small piece problem broad sweeping reason , etc tough nut crack death penalty n't help much every year fbi releases crime stats showing overwhelming amount crime committed repeat offenders people killed folks killed \( knows many times \) folks death penalty , revenge , cut \? point well taken acknowledge fact take position sorry course , still believe vast majority favor death penalty , reason seeking vengeance i'm curious , favor death penalty keep killers killing , think people commit crimes , rape robbery \? n't muslims cut hand 're caught stealing \?
fil sapienza med umich edu \( fil sapienza \) subject people become atheists \? organization university michigan hospitals lines 24 article may 7 01 09 44 1993 14556 athos rutgers edu maxwell c muir , muirm argon gas organpipe uug arizona edu writes faith \( want know , feel faith intellectually dishonest \) 'd appreciate support statement i'm sure really makes sense ambiguity religious beliefs , unwillingness take pascal 's wager , 've heard frequently exactly pascal 's wager \? sound broken \? n't know point mother 's treatment upset , see inconsistencies various religions i'm sure constitutes broken ness certainly disillusionment sapienza department technology services university michigan hospitals surgery fil sapienza med umich edu
mls panix com \( michael siemon \) subject deuterocanonicals , esp sirach organization panix public access unix , nyc lines 56 may 10 05 07 27 1993 athos rutgers edu mdw33310 uxa cso uiuc edu \( michael walker \) writes last paragraph killed deuterocanonicals always accepted inspired scripture catholic church , existed much longer protestant church martin luther began hacking bible deciding remove certain books fact catholic church decided add much later reason difference catholic protestant bibles misleading , best question , really , status greek septuagint versus hebrew scripture issue predates reformation quite bit jerome negative fact , even though , put hebrew canon \( greek ordering hebrew one \) translations quick dirty , also \( reports done one one day , another overnight , dictating translation say , vulgate , massive importance western christianity , along jerome , took first steps reducing books status \( \) among greeks furthermore , inaccurate say reformers threw books basically , placed secondary status \( jerome already done \) , additional warning doctrine based citations alone think emphasis hebrew originals sound , though seems somewhat arbitrary disallow face translation part collection whose principles selection \( hebrew greek \) confused unknown likely fraught accident also seems play tendentious notion original languages somehow inspired magical , message translation , could hear god 's word jews greek \( german , english , \) tendency seems got big boost sola scriptura protestantism , even point current inerrancy , despite basic , underlying tendency reformers see texts could translated profit english rendering hebrew greek , surely little reason keep sirach , least , bibles \( course , n't \) \) texts originally greek , would seem anti greek prejudice \( notably , time hebrew canon fully attested , including anti christian prejudice led jewish septuagint \) operative btw readers may enjoy lectures bruce metzger issues translation bible \( including said jerome , \) current numbers journal two four published far michael l siemon say gods , sons mls panix com high , nevertheless shall die like men , fall mls ulysses att com like prince psalm 82 6 7
lisa ux1 lbl gov \( lisa stewart \) subject christian embassy dc reply lisa ux1 lbl gov organization lawrence berkeley laboratory lines 6 anyone know christian embassy washington dc \? exactly \? please respond lisa ux1 lbl gov thanks
adamsj gtewd mtv gtegsc com subject doctrine original sin reply adamsj gtewd mtv gtegsc com organization gte govt systems , electronics def div lines 24 article may 9 05 40 15 1993 athos rutgers edu , eugene bigelow ebay sun com \( geno \) writes 4 \) nothing unclean shall enter heaven \( rev 21 27 \) therefore , babies born state die , god put hell , exactly doctrine st augustine st thomas n't read entire thread , , someone n't tossed yet , 2 samuel 12 21 23 \( rsv \) servants said , thing done \? wept child alive child died , arose ate food ' david said , child still alive , wept said , knows whether lord gracious , child may live \? ' dead fast \? bring back \? shall go , return ' anyhow , many interpret mean child gone heaven \( david someday go \) n't claim know sure applies babies even 's one , would say \? jeff adams
gilham csl sri com \( fred gilham \) subject ontological argument organization computer science lab , sri international , menlo park , ca lines 12 read somewhere kurt goedel argued ontological argument god 's existence logically reasonable \( something effect \) anyone know true , citation \? thanks fred gilham gilham csl sri com peace better war 's hell war hell makes sense walker , second coming
loisc microsoft com \( lois christiansen \) subject homosexuality issues christianity organization microsoft corp lines 44 article may 7 01 08 16 1993 14381 athos rutgers edu whitsebd nextwork rose hulman edu wrote one thinks homosexuality christianity compatible check romans 1 27 corinthians 6 9 timothy 1 10 jude 1 7 ii peter 2 6 9 gen 19 lev 18 22 \( name verses pertain homosexuality \) christ 's love , bryan whitsell like never heard , read verses \? read context , taking consideration times places written local customs pagan rituals surrounding verses talking interact rest bible many issues bible argued , argued sides issue examples come mind gifts spirit rapture occur \( pre post tribulation \) people baptized name found nothing scripture condemns , anyone else , monogamous relationship person love , even sex i'm sorry coming across heated 's lord dear last several years i'm tired hearing old thing people believe told rather finding check invite holy spirit guide n't confident would n't invite god bless loisc
dan ingres com \( rose arose \) subject national repentance organization representing views lines 63 mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) writes heard radio today christian student conference christians called repent america 's national sins , sexual promiscuity reply whoa ! repent someone else 's sin \? ca n't claim repent someone else 's sin , fact judging \? jesus equipped us judge activities warned us judge people judge ye judged c lewis made point essay world war ii , christian leaders britain urging national repentance horrors \( sins \? \? \? \) world war ii see point , cannot strongly disagree repent means turn around , nation , behaved incredibly arrogantly toward god , encouraging , even forcing folks participate activity directly opposed written word god arrogantly set nation far god created allowed us luxury living land set bad example nations 've slaughtered unborn children millions stricken name god classroom 've cheated god honor due every turn , owe god apology every bit public sins jesus said judge ye judged , addressing like john baptist repented calling others repent addressing remained sin condemnation others sins message us remove log eye removing brother 's also said rebuke n't forget command problem today tend judge condemn though tend neglect bringing folks back lord excuse n't want judge anyone truth , need judge less call others repent able distinguish two motives call sin openly let 's charge fall correctly instead running someone hell , pull path onto path deplore horrible crime child murder want prevention , merely punishment must reach root evil practiced whose souls revolt dreadful deed mater motive , love ease , desire save suffering unborn innocent , woman awfully guilty commits deed oh ! thrice guilty drove desperation impelled crime susan b anthony , revolution july 8 , 1869
reimer uts edu au \( matthew r \) subject urbana 93 mission conference organization university technology , sydney lines 16 would like hear people thinking going urbana 93 conference december year recently received info \( international fellowship evangelical students \) thinking attending although still sure whether afford would also like hear people involved ivf groups hear things going campus news groups groups people already involved christian fellowship university technology sydney australia interested find going mail find matt reimer email reimer uts edu au
gchin ssf eng sun com \( gary chin \) subject two people married god 's e reply gchin ssf eng sun com organization sun microsystems , inc lines 20 article geneva rutgers edu , jenk microsoft com \( jen kilmer \) writes article apr 24 01 09 13 1993 geneva rutgers edu mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) writes none states currently recognize sex marriages , know several couples whose marriages stable loving long lasting legally married friends relatives \( drives one friend 's family crazy brothers divorced twice , parents divorced , filthy gay married partner 20 years \) marriages stable loving long lasting , n't make right sex partners could best friends , without getting sexually involved gary chin staff engineer sun microsystems mt view , ca gchin eng sun com
eugene bigelow ebay sun com \( geno \) subject doctrine original sin reply eugene bigelow ebay sun com organization sun microsystems , inc lines 19 babies supposed baptised n't bible ever say never comes right says people know right wrong taught baptised sound argument babies assumes bible n't say specifically n't need something , must mean need know 's specific term form logic , escapes right however , sound , able apply way bible n't specifically say something wrong , must ok , , coincidentally , leads perfectly question 've often pondered slavery immoral \( believe , assume everyone else group \? \) , n't jesus apostles speak \? owning slaves common practice back paul speaks everything else immoral apparently thought important enough talk things like n't anyone mention slavery \? god 's morals eternal n't change like morals society , must immoral today
dhammers pacific \? \( david hammerslag \) subject mormon temples organization u dhammers organization lines 21 article may 7 01 08 52 1993 athos rutgers edu cas org \( brooks \) writes searching deceased ancestors perform ordinances baptism , confirmation , marriage time eternity required person obtain salvation christ live people may opportunity know christ lifetime , making possible christ 's saving grace \( know thousands interpretations phrase \) become fully effective allow side paragraph brought mind question \( mormons \) reconcile idea eternal marriage christ 's statement ressurection people neither marry given marriage \( luke , chapt 20 \) \? david hammerslag \( dhammers urbana mcd mot com \) ai n't nobody bad lord ca n't save 'em ai n't nobody good n't need god 's love mullins
creps lateran ucs indiana edu \( stephen creps \) subject matter church \? organization indiana university lines 22 article may 2 09 51 04 1993 geneva rutgers edu gideon otago ac nz \( gideon king \) writes protestant reformers opposed subsequently separated church rome , battle cry new protesting religion bible , whole bible , nothing bible underlying cry theory people could read bible native tongue would discover truth god purpose would shed old errors united common faith idea , reformers somehow first bring bible people language , myth many translations bible existed long reformation vulgate bible , still official version bible catholic church , translation common \( e vulgar vulgate \) tongue day , latin , existed reformation might also noted printing press even invented century reformation occurred steve creps , indiana university creps lateran ucs indiana edu
kevxu cunyvm bitnet subject christianity repeated lives organization city university new york lines 36 essentially discussion reincarnation context christianity gerry palo made comparisons asian religious beliefs topic simplified asian idea karma point misrepresentation significant differences idea karma among hindus , , buddhists \( even among various buddhist traditions \) refer karma system reward past deeds totally incorrect buddhist traditions karma considered moral process intentions \( either good evil \) shape person 's future intention action produce person prone good evil , opposite reward nothing buddhism atheistic deity dispense rewards punishments karma usually described terms seeds fruit thereof fact , shall reap found canon recall , metaphor natural growth explicit hinduism , sects tradition , believe much deterministic involve concepts closer reward punishment inclined point fact , buddhist tradition southeast asia considers karma one five influences human life , fact point view would unable explain mechanics karma without element free also eastern religions difference reincarnation rebirth , essentially absent western considerations n't origen usually cited prestigious proponent reincarnation among christian thinkers \? views , relate christian scriptures \? jack carroll
whitsebd nextwork rose hulman edu \( bryan whitsell \) subject satan tv reply whitsebd nextwork rose hulman edu organization news service rose hulman lines 14 article may 9 05 41 06 1993 athos rutgers edu salaris niblick ecn purdue edu \( rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrabbits \) writes mtv controls bands popular , matter bad fact , better politically correct like u2 , madonna musical talent steven c salaris interesting idea regular seems sort thing politically correct shows christ 's love bryan
hudson athena cs uga edu \( paul hudson jr \) subject portland earthquake organization university georgia , athens lines 19 article may 7 01 09 33 1993 athos rutgers edu cctr114 cantua canterbury ac nz \( bill rea \) writes history seems imply pretty serious sin one pastors church attend , christchurch city , considers prophesy natural disaster judgement lord clear sign prophesy lord would like see reasoning behind may gotten burned natural disaster prophecies , mean every natural disaster judgement prophecy false take quick look book jeremiah obvious judgement prophecies valid us , seems like might problem positive prophecies , though sure may people judgement sometimes god give words difficult swallow relative prophecy grounds dismiss much ot happy stuff link hudson
fil sapienza med umich edu \( fil sapienza \) subject people become atheists \? organization university michigan hospitals lines 36 article may 7 01 09 59 1993 14571 athos rutgers edu bill mayne , mayne pipe cs fsu edu writes article may 7 01 09 59 1993 14571 athos rutgers edu bill mayne , mayne pipe cs fsu edu writes article may 5 02 50 42 1993 athos rutgers edu fil sapienza med umich edu \( fil sapienza \) writes interested finding people become atheists believed god god conversing groups , 've often sensed anger hostility though n't mean imply atheists angry hostile , seem one motivation giving faith thus , atheism might result broken ness condescending best slightly ad hominem attack attitude part many theists , especially vocal ones , one reason hostility sense like atheists say people turn religion immature emotionalism \? would n't n't thought pretty good job qualifying statement , apparently people misinterpreted intentions apologize part communicating confusion intent stir discussion rather judge seems worked rest post noted way , originally post alt atheism got , n't know sapienza department technology services university michigan hospitals surgery fil sapienza med umich edu
hudson athena cs uga edu \( paul hudson jr \) subject satanic tounges organization university georgia , athens lines 60 article may 9 05 40 36 1993 athos rutgers edu koberg spot colorado edu \( allen koberg \) writes seem many points speaking tongues thing problematic 's use prayer language seems especially troubling understand pray tongues , spirit talking pray , pray god spirit god , spirit talking go pentecost use 's actual language wrong spirit talking jesus us , romans 8 26 27 tell spirit us god theological problem tounges prayer language finds support corinthians 14 14 18 moreover , phrase though speak tongues men angels used paul cor misleading context would assume angelic tongue , speak , known language , angelic tongue true could \( \) used rug sweep difficulties valid point paul mention angelic tounges verse hmmm old testament story tower babel , see god punished giving us different language assume angels language , one amongst angels \? , punished manner languages result babel , stands reason angels would speak different language us valid point multiple angelic languages angelic beings maybe different species speak maybe different species communicate differently trouble , stories abound , attempts verification \( test spirit \) either show witness real idea circumstances , outright fabrication involved brother puka story previous post seems like friend friend thing , two syllable word hardly qualifies language , inflection heard eyewitness account , things hard prove n't lend laboratory thing well don' know holy thing take gifts laboratory anyway much many faith healers trouble proving victories \( since cured plain unprovable \) modern day never validated , true modern day proved clergy lay 's unprovable statement prove somethings proved \? way know 've seen evidence saw records complete photographs showing one patients severe cured constant prayer john g lakes prayed someone saw healed laboratory , according adventures god interesting book link
hedrick geneva rutgers edu subject faq essay homosexuality lines 452 someone referred faq essay homosexuality since n't posted time \( 've modified somewhat since last time \) , i'm taking opportunity post another entry faq containing comments contributors retrieved ftp rutgers edu pub soc religion christian others homosexuality contains far detail exegetical issues give , though primarily conservative point view posting summarizes several issues involving homosexuality christians frequently asked question , post question time occurs rather attempt summarize postings get discussion summarizes arguments allowing christian homosexuality , since people asking question already know arguments common question dealt herein christian justify homosexual , given bible says \? first , definition many groups believe homosexual orientation , e sexual attraction members sex distinguished actual homosexual sexual activity homosexuals abstain sex considered groups acceptable however lot discussion , term means someone actually engaging homosexual sex generally accepted outside groups paper i'm going use meaning person engaging sexual acts another sex n't heard biblical argument person homosexual orientation remains think people admit predisposition homosexual often called known whether genetic environmental evidence suggesting best evidence 've seen homosexuality single phenomenon , number different causes one probably genetic several groups try help people move homosexual heterosexual best known exodus international reports 've seen \( n't read detailed literature , summary minority opinion presbyterian church 's infamous report human sexuality \) suggest programs low success rates , questions real even successes certainly people say converted however issue important sounds believe homosexuality wrong believe intrinsically wrong , defined god fact 's hard get homosexual relevant fact 's hard escape drug addict 's wrong , 's wrong may affect deal people though 's difficult change , may tend make us willing forgive one general background issue 's common quote figure 10 population homosexual asked one experts came 's response kinsey \( see \) source figure 10 percent defines sexuality behavior , orientation , ranked persons scale zero \( completely heterosexual \) 6 \( completely heterosexual \) according kinsey , one third male adults least one experience orgasm post puberty ten percent adult males experiences 1948 percentages held true followup study done kinsey institute , based data early seventies published early 80s , bell weinberg , believe ca n't put hand latter reference , online information kinsey 's study appears iris , catalog rutgers author kinsey , alfred charles , 1956 title sexual behavior human male alfred c kinsey b pomeroy clyde e martin publisher philadelphia , w b co , 1948 xv , 804 p 24 cm notes based surveys made members staff indiana university , supported national research council 's committee research problems sex means funds contributed medical division rockefeller foundation bibliography p 766 787 pomeroy , baxter , joint author martin , clyde eugene , joint author subjects sex u moral conditions lc card figure widely used scholarly discussions even found hold true several cultures , noted recent newsweek child gay \? \( feb 24 , 1992 \) journalist running rounds talk shows season promoting book allegedly refutes kinsey 's study , scholarly world seems take kook 've seen objections kinsey 's study , enough detail include \( someone would like contribute another view , 'd willing include \) christians believe homosexuality \( least sex \) wrong , however denominations accept metropolitan community churches best known formed specifically accept homosexuals however united church christ also allows , think couple groups may well episcopal church seems accept areas others churches government , 'll find congregations accept \( even among southern baptists , though number probably one two congregations \) unusual churches permit homosexual church leaders carefully enforce another issue n't doubt homosexual pastors every denomination , open others arguments biblical issues , 's attempt summarize issues commonly cited reference favoring acceptance homosexuality previous discussions john boswell christianity , social tolerance , homosexuality , u chicago press , 1980 argument pretty clear several explicit laws ot , e g leviticus 20 13 , rom 1 paul seems pretty negative homosexuality beyond references , debates passages often cited subject probably relevant e g sin inhabitants sodom proposed carry homosexual rape , homosexual activity consenting adults \( 's even question whether homosexual , since entities involved angels \) particularly horrifying involved guests , responsibility towards guests culture strong \( probably reason lot offered daughter better give daughter allow guests attacked \) look concordance references sodom elsewhere bible , 'll see seem imply homosexuality sin 's jewish tradition major sin abuse guests rate , 's debate homosexual rape wrong discuss leviticus law part set laws christians consider binding unless nt justification found , lev alone would settle issue nt references paul 's letters number references paul lists sins words fairly vague boswell argues words occuring lists mean homosexual 's says two greek words appear lists \( e cor 6 9 tim 1 10 \) arsenokoitai unfortunately entirely clear words actually mean , basic meaning soft , variety metaphorical meanings ethical writing boswell suggests likely equivalent also reports unanimous interpretation church , including greek speaking christians , passage referred masturbation , meaning vanished 20th cent , practice come less upon \( cites references late 1967 edition catholic encyclopedia identify masturbation \) translates male prostitute , giving evidence none church fathers understood term referring homosexuality general technical meaning , suggested early latin translations , would active mode homosexual male prostitute , view paul intend technically conservative view , consulted gordon fee 's commentary cor cites evidence often meant effeminate however boswell warns us greek culture effeminate necessarily synonymous homosexual , though may associated kinds homosexual behavior given boswell fee say taken together , suspect term simply definite , applies homosexuals cases , n't general term homosexuality fee argues boswell well , ends suggesting translation seems essentially big problem word almost never used paul 's writing first occurence fact word clearly composed male f k unfortunately n't quite tell us meaning , since n't tell us whether male subject object action examples compound words formed either way given theory could refer rapists , etc 's dangerous base meaning purely etymology , 'll conclude goodbye religious expression 's based god ye however since boswell , fee , niv seem agree homosexual male prostitute , seems good guess note translation misses strong term however \( something fee boswell agree , attempt reproduce translation \) opinion , strongest nt reference homosexuality romans 1 boswell points rom 1 speaks homosexuality something happened people naturally heterosexual , result corruption due worshipping false gods one could argue simply example homosexual worshipped false gods , would also fall degradation perhaps become heterosexual however find argument somewhat forced , fact homosexual readers seriously proposed paul meant however convinced rom 1 sufficient create law homosexuality christians paul describing rom 1 homosexuality among christians 's homosexuality appeared among idolaters one part whole package wickedness despite impression left rhetoric , i'm sure paul believe pagans completely abandoned heterosexual sex given description situation , rather assume heterosexual sex would also shameless yes , believe passage indicates negative view homosexuality fairness , shameless nature acts reflection general spiritual state people , specific feature homosexuality overall view situation following think enough evidence confident paul disapproved homosexuality rom 1 seems clear cor 6 9 tim 1 10 unambiguous general condemnations homosexuality , seem like wording would come someone approved homosexuality even considered acceptable cases hand , none passages contains explicit teachings subject rom 1 really idolatry refers homosexuality passing result situation people interpret passages light general approach scripture look scripture laws issues , surprising would consider passages nt endorsement ot prohibition whose approach bible liberal , surprising regard paul 's negative view homosexuality something took jewish upbringing without serious light gospel readers group know , assumptions behind approaches radically different people tend foam mouth see opposing view described 's lot moderator situation number discussions past centered around sort detailed exegesis texts described however fact i'm convinced defenders homosexuality actually base beliefs analyses real issue seems rest question whether paul 's judgement apply modern homosexuality one commonly made claim paul simply never faced kinds questions trying deal encountered homosexuality contexts people would probably agree wrong never faced experience christians try act straight fail , never faced christians trying define christian homosexuality , fits general christian ideals fidelity seeing sexuality mirror relationship god man unfair take paul 's judgement homosexuality among idolaters use make judgements questions another following paul 's time homosexuality associated number things christians would find acceptable part temple prostitution among private citizens , often occured adults children free people slaves i'm position say always , reasons think ancients distinguished active passive partner considered free adult act passive partner \( reason active mode homosexual prostitute would considered customers would people enjoyed passive role \) supports idea would tend engaged two free adult males , least without degree scandal clearly christian homosexuals would condone sex children , slaves , others position fully responsible partners \( however fee 's commentary cor cites examples ancient literature homosexual relationships seem involve free adults reasonably symmetrical way thus considerations paragraph n't pushed far homosexuality may discredited jews associations , surely must cases prostitutes involve slaves children \) people argued aids judgement homosexuality 'd like point aids transmitted promiscuous sex , homosexual heterosexual someone homosexual relationship meets christian criteria marriage risk aids note good reason paul 's general approach doubt would concede homosexuality fully equal alternative , apart specific statements homosexuality believe use genesis story would lead regard heterosexual marriage god ordained however way paul deals pastoral questions provides warning quick deal issue legally claim question counsel homosexual christians entirely theological issue , also pastoral one paul 's tendency , see issues eating meat celebrating holidays , uncompromising principle pastoral issues look carefully good people involved , avoid insisting perfection would personally damaging example , paul clearly believed acceptable eat meat , wanted us avoid pushing people action personal qualms another example , paul obviously would preferred see people \( least circumstances \) remain yet unable , certainly would rather see married state might tempted fornication believe one could take view like even accepting views paul expressed rom 1 one may believe homosexuality god intended , occured result sin , still conclude times live note creation story work enters human life result sin n't mean christians stop working saved question whether believe homosexuality sinful whether believe 's misfortune broad sense due human sinfulness 're willing consider latter approach , becomes pastoral judgement whether damage caused finding way live trying cure dangers trying cure attempt often fails , , end damage ranging psychological damage suicide , well broken marriages attempts living heterosexual fail going depend upon one 's assessment inherent nature homosexuality believe serious wrong , may willing run high risks serious damage get rid clearly generally suggest people live tendency steal drug addiction , even though attempts cure conditions also difficult however conditions intrinsically damaging way obvious homosexuality \( many problems associated homosexuality actually problems promiscuity , homosexuality includes aids take granted sort homosexual relationships christian would consider allowing would equivalent christian heterosexual relationships \) course discussing last decade , 've heard lot personal testimony fellow christians situation 've also seen summaries various research results various efforts conversion \( aside presbyterian report mentioned , 's faq summarizes readers' reports question \) evidence long term success changing orientation rare enough par healing miracles danger advising christians depend upon change clear conversion n't happen , almost always , people often left despair , feeling excluded church nothing say requirement life long celibacy paul recognized \( though different context \) demand practical people , think history clerical celibacy strongly reinforced judgement practical result homosexuals end gay sex clubs rest side homosexuality maybe homosexuality n't god 's original ideal , well imagine paul preferring see people long term , committed christian relationships promiscuity work genesis suggests n't part god 's original ideal either think relationships still vehicle people sharing god 's love 's issue biblical interpretation underlying discussion issue cultural relativism , paul says something wrong , taken eternal statement , things wrong specific situations culture time \? conservative christians generally insist taking prohibitions absolute , since otherwise bible becomes subjective stop us considering everything relative \? looking issue , 's worth noting one completely rejects concept cultural relativism number judgements new testament even conservative christians consider relative following judgements least clear bible anything said homosexuality prohibition charging interest \( occurs 18 times ot 's nt , mention relatively recently church consider binding christians \) prohibition swearing oaths endorsement slavery institution judgement tax collectors sinner regard items binding cases , believe argument essentially one cultural relativism briefly prohibition interest appropriate specific society bible trying build , market economy people believe american judicial oaths characteristics kind oaths jesus concerned people believe paul simply telling people live within slavery , endorsing institution people believe irs morally equivalent roman tax farming point i'm trying make applying biblical prohibitions 20th cent , need look whether 20th cent actions christian homosexuals say relationships different greek homosexuality paul would familiar , exactly kind argument made judicial oaths tax collectors fairly recently christians prohibited taking interest , many christians regarded slavery divinely endorsed \( indeed , slavery one common metaphors relationship god human beings christians often called servants slaves god \) trying say everything bible culturally relative rather , i'm trying say things , therefore enough say something appears bible , ends discussion need look whether action 're talking moral implications one bible talking christians want argue reasons think prohibitions homosexuality still binding , i'm willing listen claim question n't need looked kidding \( unless part small minority really obey rules listed \) one thing worries great emotions issue creates consider weakness biblical evidence laws leviticus , passage rom whose subject matter really idolatry rather homosexuality , couple lists whose words ambiguous amount concern raising among christians seems rather proportion suggest people reasons simply biblical involved true sides clearly homosexual christians strongly motivated find ways discrediting biblical arguments conservative christians find biblical arguments ca n't help feeling bible used sides way justifying attitudes come sources dangerous situation christians side issue , would like note problems pro homosexual position commonly presented one common arguments homosexuality biologically determined e god made homosexual , choice think god made homosexual fine view people already believe grounds homosexuality acceptable n't see argument many people think largely biological , drug addiction may turn well n't mean 's ok us particular things tend wrong people get angry easily others tend arrogant others tend women married someone else homosexuality \( view wrong \) would n't different things going follow god , end one time another work overcome bad habits particular cause us problems none us sit back say god made us way relax jesus said , take cross daily concept dying self \( also appears throughout paul 's letters \) seems suggest going things called accept paul 's letters experience christians throughout history show us sin ingrained us , battle lifelong difficult fact homosexuality difficult fight n't necessarily say 's ok maybe n't place die self 'd like make sure think n't fighting battle somewhere else , rejecting concept christians fight deeply habits sin
aaronc athena mit edu \( aaron bryce cardenas \) subject baptism requires faith organization massachusetts institute technology lines 144 troubles many posts recently trying support doctrine original sin primarily catholic doctrine , purpose defend idea infant baptism even among , supporters , however , people stop short saying infants go hell 's easy anyone come partial list scripture support sort wrong doctrine however , heart persevere beliefs make sure biblically based , come understanding truth let 's take complete look scripture colossians 2 11 12 also circumcised , putting sinful nature , circumcision done christ , buried baptism raised faith power god , raised dead baptism , raised new life christ \( romans 6 4 \) personal faith power god parent 's faith cannot infants faith \? let 's look bible say romans 10 16 17 israelites accepted good news isaiah says , 'lord , believed message \? ' consequently , faith comes hearing message , message heard word christ receive god 's gift faith us hear message gospel faith possible response hearing god 's word preached kids yet spiritually , intellectually , emotionally mature enough respond god 's word hence cannot faith therefore cannot raised baptism new life ezekiel 18 20 soul sins die son share guilt father , father share guilt son righteousness righteous man credited , wickedness wicked charged read ezekiel 18 , see god n't hold us guilty anyone else 's sins original guilt adam ezekiel 18 31 32 rid offenses , get new heart new spirit die , house israel \? take pleasure death anyone , declares sovereign lord repent live ! way please god repent get new heart spirit kids cannot acts 2 38 39 says repent baptized , receive new spirit , holy spirit shall live little background original sin biblical , let 's look scriptures used support romans 5 12 therefore , sin entered world one man , death sin , way death came men , sinned sin death entered world first man sinned death came man man sinned note 's good read romans 5 12 21 verses easier misunderstand others , read context see saying basically thing let 's look one romans 5 19 disobedience one man many made sinners , also obedience one man many made righteous disobedience individual , made sinner way , obedience jesus , made righteous must remember reading passage death came man man sinned , guilt adam otherwise bible would contradict encourage read whole passage , looking point view see n't fit together psalm 51 5 surely sinful birth , sinful time mother conceived whole psalm wonderful example humble god repentance sinning david man god 's heart wrote psalm committing murdering husband david saying ca n't remember time n't sinful humbling god confessing sinfulness saying sinful birth hyperbole bible , inspired god , n't limited literal , also uses figures speech jesus \( john 16 25 \) another example hyperbole , see luke 14 26 , even though people see baptism requires faith original sin biblical , still argue infant baptism necessary children sin selfish sharing toys children , mean hitting others fighting , etc certainly observed children wrong things , gut feeling always n't know better let 's look see bible agrees gut feelings isaiah 7 14 15 therefore lord give sign virgin child give birth son , call immanuel eat honey knows enough reject wrong choose right church leader tell prophecy jesus n't , point matthew 1 23 find new leader jesus certainly could n't less knowledge normal human babies yet passage says mature certain extent would know difference right wrong see grow become wiser luke 2 40 2 52 implication jesus wrong things child knew choose right wrong since know jesus perfect without sin , rather conclusive proof babies cannot sin n't know choose right instead wrong jesus baptized , albeit john 's baptism , infant , thirty year old man \( luke 3 21 23 \) started ministry soon baptized \( luke 3 23 \) immediately afterwards , tempted devil \( luke 4 1 13 matthew 4 1 11 mark 1 12 13 \) thank attention moderator finish subject perhaps would like make faq response repost time time topic comes feel free contents would like , please send copy final faq sincerely , aaron cardenas aaronc athena mit edu think 're overly optimistic authoritative quality response first , original sin catholic doctrine held luther calvin well , still present one form another lutheran reformed traditions second , saying purpose defending infant baptism ad hominem argument , considerable evidence original baptist theology included original sin , baptists still hold certainly groups baptize infants without believing original sin among protestants , sacraments tend bit symbolic among catholics protestants baptize infants see baptism sign god 's acceptance us , rather acceptance god traditional protestant theology , god 's grace response , applicable children number passages one cite indicate god accepts even children clh
eugene bigelow ebay sun com \( geno \) subject atheists hell reply eugene bigelow ebay sun com organization sun microsystems , inc lines 60 imagine worst depth despair 've ever encountered , worst physical pain 've ever experienced people suffer emotional , physical , mental anguish lives deaths seem merciful least pain end death lived hundred lives , conclusion one instantly reborn another \? lived million , billion years state \? kept going forever \? happen jesus \? n't think , heard lived one day suffering died wages sin paragraph , jesus pay sins , \? something 've always found little curious 've never quite understood trinity thing one hand , jesus supposed god incarnate , time , god 's son god loved world gave begotten son first question , jesus god human form , could really god 's son \? holy ghost planted seed mary , speak , seems jesus' relationship god would equivalent human father son relationship son might inherit alot father 's qualities , father still two entities try say son person father obviously wrong case , jesus god n't hand , relationship n't human father son relationship , jesus actually god incarnate , 's really god 's son never 's god jesus least , i'm seeing someone knowledgeable trinity enlighten us \? getting back original question , great price jesus paid redeem sins \? dying cross \? since jesus knew would rise 3 days ascend back heaven , hard time seeing considered paying great price humanity earthly body may killed , , \? suffered hours physical pain , , many human suffered great deal fact jesus god 's begotten son n't seem much meaning since god many sons wants jesus one simply matter choice suspect questions offensive many christians net people , please accept sincere apologies intention offend christ , believe legitimate questions genuinely curious note trinity incarnation looked together first , reading virgin birth uncommon one \( group , 's dangerous say one believes something \) seem suggesting jesus god 's son physical sense , holy spirit father mary mother consider terrible heresy , though people react less violently virgin birth says jesus' birth god 's responsibility n't imply god 's sperm involved indeed one \( though means \) speculation god used joseph 's genetic material second , jesus sense doubly indirect father trinitarian context , term son refers eternal logos , part god son n't come existence jesus' birth jesus incarnation son n't specifically result incarnated rather , 's son incarnated clh
athmail1 causeway qub ac uk subject christianity repeated lives organization utexas mail news gateway lines 38 paragraph new testament opinion , clearly makes positive inference reincarnation n't remember one top head , basically goes like jesus talking apostles ask pharisees say messiah come elijah must first come jesus replies elijah come , recognize says apostles perceived refering john baptist seems clearly imply reincarnation popular belief judaism time , elijah would return \( taken heaven chariot actually die \) however jesus referring john baptist sense elijah john \( remember elijah didn`t die \) john similar prophet elijah john fiery preacher , wore wandered rough israel preaching coming kingdom verses describe \( gospel \) linked ot references elijah hence john similar elijah jesus drawing parallels two drew parallels suffering servant isaiah \( messianic figures \) brief reply don`t time look relevant stuff suffice say strong explanation rick richard johnston university 73 road northern ireland athmail1 causeway qub ac uk
nichael bbn com \( nichael cramer \) subject variants nt text \( cont \) reply ncramer bbn com organization bbn , interzone office lines 75 db7n andrew cmu edu \( andrew byler \) anyone english translation long recension acts apostles found \? 1 english translation found acts apostles , translated codex bezae , introduction origin importance , j wilson \( london , 1923 \) 2 another work might useful acts apostles , critical edition introduction notes selected passages , albert c clark \( oxford , 1933 reprinted 1970 \) \( edition text acts makes assumption text codex bezae authentic n't know actually contains english translation \) 3 another useful discusses many variants detail theological tendency codex bezae acts , j epp \( cambridge , 1966 \) 4 recent reference found edition french early '80s \( supply reference anyone 's interested \) 5 , many works going difficult find 're interested examining differences long recension excellent \( easily obtainable \) discussion found textual commentary greek nt , bruce metzger \( united bible society , 1971 \) metzger 's book serves companion volume ubs 3rd edition greek nt contains discussion reasoning went behind decisions 1440 variant readings included furthermore , notes addition 600 readings included \( majority occur acts \) particular introduction section acts metzger writes attempt made set reader less full report \( english translation \) several additions modifications attested western witnesses since many corresponding apparatus text volume , care taken supply adequate evidence supports divergent readings \( p 272 \) understand one early , vaticanus version acts would interesting know differences long short forms 6 copies text acts \( including ones vaticanus \) pretty closely shorter \( alexandrian \) version longer version refer usually called western version main witness codex bezae \( rather fragmentary sources \) 7 far size , difference clark 's edition \( mentioned \) book acts contains 19 , 983 words whereas text edited \( typical alexandrian text \) contains 18 , 401 words e difference 8 1 2 8 answer obvious questions , , major revelations longer text major omissions shorter text main difference seems expansion detail western text \( , prefer alexandrian \) western text seems given detail interesting specific cases , probably place go detail 9 discussion years versions authentic hot heavy anything approaching modern consensus \( \) neither text represents purely authentic version , \( ii \) variant reading examined merits however , \( iii \) variant alexandrian text better often n
dozier utkux1 utk edu \( dozier \) subject soc religion christian organization university tennessee , department conferences lines 7 reading posts newsgroup pasts 4 months , become apparent group primarily active liberals , catholics , new , athiests someone might think change name soc religion perhaps even soc religion new might seem appropriate heck , n't flame , i'm catholic , gay , voted bill clinton i'm side !
simon giaeb cc monash edu au subject virtues purity , modesty innocence organization monash university , melb , australia lines 154 heres nice story help explain virtues purity , innocence modesty , importance beautiful virtues story excerpt taken basket flowers johann christoph von certain little market town , hundred years ago , lived upright intelligent man named jacob married virtuous young woman lived happily humble home midst large , beautiful val ley living many , happy years together , jacob 's wife died , leaving alone one friend daughter mary even child mary pretty grew years , , innocence , modesty ss towards came contact , gave beauty rare peculiar charm face look goodness , seemed almost though one looked upon angel mary 's greatest delight beautiful garden favour flowers violet , lily rose jacob loved point virtues becoming gender , early march brought first violet called upon admire , said let modest violet , dear mary , image benevolence good secret clothes tender colours modesty prefers bloom retired fills air remain ing hidden beneath leaves may also , dear mary , like retiring violet , avoiding vain display , seeking attract public eye , preferring ever good peace one morning roses full bloom garden appeared richest array , jacob said daughter , pointed beautiful lily , morning sun let lily dear child , purity look beautiful , pure fair ! whi test nothing compared purity like snow happy whose heart pure free stain purest colours also hardest 5 preserve pure easily lily touch roughly stain left behind way , word thought may stain purity innocence ! pointing rose said let rose dear mary , modesty beautiful colour rose rises cheek modest girl sign still pure heart innocent thought happy suggestion thought , cause , thus put guard approach danger readily remain long time hue , fail least thought soon become pale wan , go time grave among many fruit trees garden one prized others apple tree , much larger rose bush , stood middle garden mary 's father planted day born every year bore number beautiful apples earlier usual unusual tree one mass mary delighted went every morning soon dressed look , full bloom , called father said look father , beautiful ! ever lovely red white \? whole tree looks like one huge bunch flowers ! next morning garden feast eyes upon tree grief see frost destroyed flowers become brown yellow sun came forth strength fell ground mary wept bitter tears sight said father thus , sinful pleasure destroy bloom youth oh child , never cease remember dreadful path right ! behold example apple tree image would happen wander way hopes conduct raised heart vanish , merely day year , life ah , much bitter would tears would shed lapse virtue course ! life would joys tears eyes 6 go grave spoke , tears stood eyes mary deeply moved , words uttered made profound impression upon mind never forgot eyes father loving wise , amid flowers garden , mary grew daily stature rose , pure lily retiring violet , full promise tree laden happy old man times behold fruits garden rewarded diligent toil much happiness content mark gracious effect produced upon heart mind beloved daughter teaching example jacob several roses , tied together bunch gave mary words lily rose , sister flowers , belong one incomparable beauty , ren still lovely together way dear child innocence modesty twin sisters virtue cannot separated greatest powerful guardian purity thought presence god internet simon giaeb cc monash edu au rey ! ! long live christ king
scott prism gatech edu \( scott holt \) subject hate sin organization georgia institute technology lines 33 hate sin love sinner 've heard quite bit recently , often context discussions christianity homosexuality context really n't important question whether statement consistent christianity would think hate begets hate , never love consider sin 'll leave unnamed since n't want digress argument whether something sin lets apply hate sin philosophy see happens truly hate sin , see , stronger hatred become eventually hate becomes strong become disgusted sinner eventually come hate sinner addition , hatred sin often causes us say things taken personally sinner \( often even believe sin \) enough , sinner begins hate us \( certainly n't love us constant criticism behavior \) hate builds drives people away god certainly cannot good way build love summary law , christ commands us love god love neighbors n't say anything hate fact , anything , commands us save criticisms , christians supposed deal sin others \? suppose one way deal sin \( either others \) prayer need ask god help us sin , help love love conquer sin hatred place best way love someone pray scott signature many like , one mine scott holt internet scott prism gatech edu georgia tech uucp ! gatech ! prism ! scott office information technology , technical services
petch gvg47 gvg tek com \( chuck \) subject daily verse lines 6 lord almighty says hear words spoken prophets foundation laid house lord almighty , let hands strong temple may built zechariah 8 9
af664 yfn ysu edu \( frank decenso , jr \) subject christianity crisis hank hanegraaff organization youngstown state youngstown free net lines 6 anyone read important book \? , feelings \? frank one wished contend , could answer one time thousand job 9 3
aidler sol uvic ca \( e alan idler \) subject mormon beliefs bastards organization university victoria lines 75 erh0362 tesla njit edu writes could anyone enlighten mormon church views children born wedlock \? particular i'm interested know stigma attached children opposed parents children born pure , e , without sin however , saints would view pregnancy outside marriage occasion mourning \( church members would much , problem \) situations welfare assistance provided church , bishops usually require family making effort live gospel standards provide however , occasions assistance provided children home former bishop mine said , children always worthy god i'm especially keen learn prohibition mormon faith bastards entering heaven names entered big genealogical book mormons keep salt lake city sure mean term bastards context latter day saints believe temple ordinances family unit may preserved eternity use genealogical material software produced church , may notice section temple ordinances within section spot signifying stands born covenant children born couple sealed \( married \) within temple born covenant eligible part eternal family unit children born couples \( whether civil marriage \) would sealed parents marriage eternity supposing child born woman wedlock , could sealed parents later date adopted eternal family unit \( may include one birth parents \) issue official position changed time , i'm interested learning old new beliefs e mail posting fine information pointers appreciated ca n't say principle adoption revealed time sealing ordinances , accepted 15 years church would tend discount admonitions church authorities children wedlock even though provisions within lord 's plan recover done wrong church want give anyone impression sin repent leisure idler
gchin ssf eng sun com \( gary chin \) subject homosexuality issues christianity reply gchin ssf eng sun com organization sun microsystems , inc lines 27 article athos rutgers edu , mls panix com \( michael siemon \) writes may 7 01 08 16 1993 14381 athos rutgers edu whitsebd nextwork rose hulman edu \( bryan whitsell \) writes homosexual christians indeed checked verses used us incredibly perverse interpretations others simply address issues would seem need careful spirit led course exegesis gay christians know suggest stop proof things know nothing let say life , death , resurrection jesus christ central christianity personally believe jesus christ died , part christian body believers still human n't know , homosexual heterosexual , strive follow jesus world dying needs hear jesus christ working together christians spread gospel \? gary chin staff engineer sun microsystems mt view , ca gchin eng sun com
ddavis cass ma02 bull com \( dave davis \) subject , eps sirach lines 108 thanks responses far hope sparked thought \( intent restart one \) i'm going tug two threads message id may 10 05 07 21 1993 athos rutgers edu db7n andrew cmu edu \( andrew byler \) writes , must point jews drew canon 90 ad , 60 years founding christian religion upon cross adhere canon drawn , reaction use greek septuagint , includes deutero canon \? simply observing non jew , community might bound decision \( n't know much council jamnia , heard well attested historically \) nothing , prefer speculate motives early 150 ad , st justin already accused jews canon scripture removal certain books wish dialogue real transcript real dialogue , , think fictional effect justin 's part putting one side , justin 's point may one would want know books \? ' protestants apparently prefer think god 's revelation limited decree jews perhaps reformers traveling light \( ms evidence \) let 's stick issues , prefer speculate motives one would need quotes luther , calvin , etc evidence message id may 9 05 38 22 1993 athos rutgers edu wagner grace math uh edu \( david wagner \) quite accurate otherwise would book enoch canon \( dave noted \) one say apocrypha quoted christ principle \( bc \) text quoted christ cannot counted \? think well job , ruth \? wrote logically invalid priori besides , talking ot texts many parts superceded nt \( xtian view \) would principle exclude ecclesiastes \? principle cannot consistently applied dave w answers reject argument spirit speaks one voice , contradict meaning \? affirm principle \( c 's excluded since contain \) deny \? affirmed \( implied statement \) one determine doctrine x false \? affirm every teaching ecclesiastes \? ultimate test whether words inspired spirit , e , god breathed test guided faith reason logic , may test cannot applied orthodox faithfully believe psalm 151 canonical faith say ! ' \? hear priori mentioned deutero canonical books added much later church 's history contrary fact spiritual quality rest scripture elevated principle \? measured \? 'll take sirach joshua chronicles , day believe church added books guided spirit say \? believe believe i'm asking consistency check n't see books added construction formulation begs question one validly ask books dave davis , ddavis ma30 bull com opinions activities alone christianity doctrine , , mean , theory happened happen human soul , description something actually takes place human life real event , despair salvation faith speak things \( , instance \) simply describing happened , whatever anyone may want say ludwig wittgenstein
dan ingres com \( rose arose \) subject legal definition religion organization representing views lines 26 e p unl edu \( edgar pearlstein \) writes 's understanding u supreme court never given legal definition religion despite many cases involving religion come court anyone verify falsify \? state government tried give legal definition religion \? according legal practices today 's america , imagine legal definition religion , defined , may resemble following system belief practice people committed benefit society must , opinion secular thought , isolated political educational influence system belief practice people committed harmful void benefit society opinion religious thought defined previous paragraph , isolation political educational influence would constitute unreasonable censorship unlawful violation civil rights someday , perhaps 'll legalize benevolence \) \?
rexlex fnal fnal gov subject homosexuality issues christianity organization fnal ad net lines 39 article may 9 05 42 07 1993 athos rutgers edu mls panix com \( michael siemon \) writes romans 1 27 corinthians 6 9 timothy 1 10 jude 1 7 ii peter 2 6 9 gen 19 lev 18 22 \( name verses pertain homosexuality \) homosexual christians indeed checked verses used us incredibly perverse interpretations others simply address issues would seem need careful spirit led course exegesis gay christians know suggest stop proof things know nothing michael well , michael , n't know clh left faq \( maybe post get map \) , posted two three lengthy exegetical paper verses looked ot , nt terms reference would suggest read talk need exegetical studies n't enough , could also provide source nt meaning dr james deyoung published masters seminary journal fall '92 read 4 papers shows shoe foot far need honest exegesis , please refer faq file , unable , drop line enclose rexlex fnal fnal gov 're separate file , gave pointer posting yesterday clh
csg mot com \( brad kaiser \) subject immaculate conception reply csg mot com lines 105 article may 6 00 35 55 1993 geneva rutgers edu joe moore writes , speaking immaculate conception blessed virgin gift god think basically reasoning tradition church held mary also without sin jesus yes examples writings early fathers , consider alone mother beautiful others , upon mother children compare beauty \? st syrian , hymns , 27 8 , around 370 lift sara mary , virgin virgin grace made inviolate , free every stain sin st ambrose , commentary psalm 118 , 22 30 , ca 388 many others tenets faith developed , particularly augustine , sin equated sex , thus mary assumed virgin life \( since never sinned , since spouse god , etc \) , instance ever anyone breeding dared speak name holy mary , questioned , immediately add , virgin \? holy mary , virgin invariably added , holy woman remains st , panacea heresies , 374 377 surely cannot deny right correcting doctrine children mary lord jesus would chosen born virgin judged would taint body lord , home eternal king , seed human intercourse anyone proposes merely proposing christ could born virgin pope st , letter , bishop , 392 note st augustine 's conversion christianity 387 n't know offhand election bishop hippo , i'm quite sure 392 belief mary 's perpetual virginity originated long augustine 's time hold originated apostles strictly speaking , however , mary 's perpetual virginity independent immaculate conception mary could immaculately conceived remained virgin could remained virgin immaculately conceived since also notion original sin , ie man born predisposition sin , since mary predisposition ever sin , n't original sin science discovered process conception , next step assume mary conceived without original sin , immaculate conception held church since ancient times original sin transmitted conception , person 's life begins biology nothing reflecting truth mary 's sinlessness , means god could achieved , church arrived truth immaculate conception thus , immaculate conception new doctrine , logical result understanding two old ones celebration feast immaculate conception given pope iv \( 1471 84 \) feast made feast church pope clement xi \( 1700 21 \) mary time appeared girl named bernadette lourdes refered immaculate conception since nine year old would way knowing doctrine , apparition deemed true sealed case doctrine first , lourdes private revelation , doctrine based private revelation private revelation enhance deepen understanding existing public revelation , ended death st john apostle second , case doctrine sealed ex cathedra bull deus pope pius ix meant doctrine formally recognized dogma dogma , definition , cannot change required believed faithful apparition lourdes happened 1858 , four years later might claimed lourdes gave infallible proclamation sort heavenly stamp approval , church never claimed , shall christ 's peace , brad kaiser \( csg mot com \) trust shall understand truth , faithful shall abide love grace mercy holy ones , care elect wis 3 9 nab
rick granberry pts mot com \( rick granberry \) subject doctrine original sin reply rick granberry pts mot com \( rick granberry \) lines 40 article may 10 05 07 56 1993 athos rutgers edu , wkuvx1 bitnet writes therefore , someone capable comprehending god 's laws accountable living book life removed make conscious decision disobey god idler babies supposed baptised n't bible ever say never comes right says people know right wrong taught baptised christ say assure , one enter god 's kingdom without born water spirit surprised tell must begotten could everyone born original sin \? mike attach meaning israelites entering promised land christianity \? submit god hold children responsible adults chose follow bad report 10 spies joshua caleb recorded us deuteronomy 1 39 moreover little ones , ye said prey , children , day knowledge good evil , shall go , unto give , shall possess least seems age , point maturity held responsible , could enter promised land , younger ones held rules , least god answer fool according folly , lest thou also like unto answer fool according folly , lest wise conceit \( proverbs 26 4 5 \)
db7n andrew cmu edu \( andrew byler \) subject immaculate conception \? organization freshman , civil engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 12 joe buehler writes various explanations reaction angel 's greeting one angel getting , mother messiah knew , suffering gave moment 's pause priest know gave interesting explanation said words mary point doubt troubled thoughts , rather complete humble revel frequently confused given high praise , mary would rightly
autry magellan stlouis sgi com \( larry autry \) subject definition christianity \? organization silicon graphics , st louis , mo lines 84 enrolled history christianity college st louis teacher class consider closed minded subject definition christianity definition tied directly trinity catholic church 's definition belief jesus christ sufficient call one 's self christian saying n't make , nevertheless feel insulted \( \? \) \) would like able respond sense literacy maintaining student teacher relationship , common definition christianity \? previous discussion trinity lend exchange flames , hopeful also produce major flames regards , larry autry silicon graphics , st louis autry sgi com often get discussions christian unfortunately number possible definitions starting broadest , commonly used definitions historical definition people accept christ lord savior broad doctrinal definition narrow doctrinal definitions 1 \) historical definition mean sort definition secular historian would likely use would include group developed christian church , continues within broad culture e g would fail doctrinal test could come yet 's clear group developed christianity , people different backgrounds \( e g hindus \) would likely see part christianity definition christians like , 's relevant political ethnic contexts 2 \) accepting christ lord savior test used many christian groups membership , e g southern baptists presbyterian church \( usa \) would qualify saying people mind exclusive commitment christ , someone accepted christ one many gods would fit 's attempt formulate criterion religious based technical doctrine definition , groups would viewed heretical christians , still christians modern context would include mormons , jw 's , oneness pentecostals would viewed heretical christians , still christian practice believe everyone falls category would accept apostle 's creed 3 \) next level attempt give broad doctrinal definition , includes major strands christianity , excludes groups felt outside historic christianity course slippery enterprise , since catholics could argue protestants outside historic christianity , etc think commonly accepted definition would based something like nicene creed formula chalcedon attempt characterize doctrines major strands christianity agree key obviously extent matter judgement mormon regard lds church major , thus want include anything contradicts beliefs think definition would fairly broad acceptance 4 \) finally , people use definitions would say limited specific christian tradition e g evangelicals consider someone christian evangelical style conversion experience , 've even heard groups limit specific church think find contexts definitions used lot going depend upon purpose 're using 're using , e g history anthropology , 'll probably use definition 1 2 're using , e say believe christian message , 'll probably use definition like 3 even 4 clh
lmvec westminster ac uk \( william hargreaves \) subject homosexuality issues christianity organization university westminster lines 20 muirm argon gas organpipe uug arizona edu \( maxwell c muir \) writes nt , clear references paul 's letters rom 1 , passage presupposes homosexuality evil note passage n't homosexuality 's idolatry homosexuality visited people punishment , least result , idolatry number arguments passage use word homosexuality , referring people nature heterosexual practicing homosexuality 's 'd call explicit teaching homosexuality 's like saying murder wrong us n't natural murders , stealing wrong us n't natural thieves dallas cowboys world champions 1992 93
koberg spot colorado edu \( allen koberg \) subject satan kicked heaven biblical \? organization university colorado , boulder lines 18 article may 9 05 42 00 1993 athos rutgers edu mdw33310 uxa cso uiuc edu \( michael walker \) writes easteee wkuvx1 bitnet writes question satan taught long time ago satan really angel god kicked heaven challenged god 's authority problem , cannot find bible bible \? , originate \? quick answer revelation 12 7 9 someone mentioned earlier , apocryphal book enoch , satan apparently kicked three times asserting , hmmm pro choice looks kinda references around bible taking third angels , getting third heavens something
prism gatech edu \( matt \) subject questions organization georgia institute technology lines 64 writing paper religion reflects affects modern music brief summary questions would like answered response requested mailed directly prism gatech edu please mail post thanks advance , matt 1 \) feel groups like , slayer , freely admit practicing satanism preach songs \? 2 \) feel groups like , old , , holy soldier promote sing \? 3 \) feel groups like front 242 , xtc , revolting , minor threat , ministry condone sing atheism \? 4 \) feel bands like shelter preach hare krishna religion minority \( unheard \) religions \? 5 \) feel difference promoting music supports music satanism \? b \) feel way \? 6 \) types music listen \? 7 \) often purchase music \? b \) often music contain lyrics undertones religion \? 8 \) feel music one listens affects way one views particular religion \? religion general \? b \) affect way view religion \? religions \? 9 \) feel free add comments matthew owen \( prism gatech edu \) nothing settles man 's mind wonderfully knowledge hanged morning arthur c clarke
gt7122b prism gatech edu \( randal lee nicholas mandock \) subject people become atheists \? organization georgia institute technology lines 12 article may 11 02 36 27 1993 athos rutgers edu biz soil princeton edu writes atheist 's prayer said \? roommate , atheist , says anyone might listening randal lee nicholas mandock catechist gt7122b prism gatech edu
gt7122b prism gatech edu \( randal lee nicholas mandock \) subject homosexual issues christianity organization georgia institute technology lines 21 response alleged circular reasoning concerning morality homosexuality , clh poses following challenge order break circle 's got reason think homosexuality wrong answer , circle simple break church teaches homosexual behavior immoral teaching raw , , dogma closes argument randal lee nicholas mandock catechist gt7122b prism gatech edu right understand people reasons accepting homosexuality point making specific argument given would n't stand clh
mdw33310 uxa cso uiuc edu \( michael walker \) subject doctrine original sin organization university illinois urbana lines 34 eugene bigelow ebay sun com \( geno \) writes joseph h buehler writes obviously applies equally well infants adults , since souls infants must baptized , therefore , cannot enter heaven need form life , cannot enter heaven saying baptism nothing asking jesus come heart accepting savior , ritual must go enable us enter heaven \? feeling baptism parents baptize baby baby sanctifying grace baptism \( thus removal original sin \) soul event unexpected death , parents speak behalf child young speak surprise anyone n't parents always believe best baby \? would apply baby 's physical needs spiritual needs god 's grace \? purpose confirmation baby \( young adult \) decide affirm promises parents made baptism accepting jesus heart comes baptism , parents ask jesus come baby 's heart confirmation child repeats request independently \( way , personal feelings , though believe pretty close doctrinal position catholic church issue anyone back correct \?
mdw33310 uxa cso uiuc edu \( michael walker \) subject mary 's assumption organization university illinois urbana lines 69 mpaul unl edu \( marxhausen paul \) writes hate sound , shot mouth badly net , i'm afraid much material adds feeling assumption mary would better phrased assumptions mary time 've reading mary group , recall reading much mary sound like wishful scant , , scriptural foundation find new testament real portrait christ 's parents human persons honored admired humility submission god 's working , beyond doubt theories dogma accreted around gives image alien inhuman creatures , untouched sin human desire christ truly sanctified , even knew temptation , albeit without submitting also n't see necessity saying holy parents sanctified beyond normal humanity sounds like inability grasp immensity god 's grace incarnated dinary human wo n't start yelling people worshipping mary , etc , since folks told otherwise , think lose part wonder god 's incarnation christ make parents sinless , , , beings paul marxhausen paul wonderful job anything possible offend us catholics hopefully careful wording also n't want extend topic entire major issue debate \( anymore already \) , note two 1 please n't talk jesus' parents doctrinal positions church unequivocally different regarding mary joseph \( personally \) never heard anything attributed st joseph , reference ever sinless , assumed heaven , immaculately conceived , etc ideas apply mary 2 would agree little scriptural evidence doctrines mary needless say , presents significant problem accept bible source doctrine , however , one turns sacred traditions christian church , problem finding evidence basically unanimous belief among apostles early generation mary assumed heaven , body soul , etc etc n't reformation doctrines called question far concerned \( , personaly feelings \) 's choice apostles luther , 'll choose apostles every time , whether recorded within writings traditions men determined bible like said , couple notes often said , believe must agree \( politely \) disagree may god 's peace blessings always search discover absolute truth mike walker mdw33310 uxa cso uiuc edu \( univ illinois \)
mdw33310 uxa cso uiuc edu \( michael walker \) subject new thought deuterocanonicals organization university illinois urbana lines 40 often times \( recently list last days \) 've heard passage revelation whoever adds sacred words book whoever removes words book used arguement books feel ridiculous two reasons 1 n't added later catholic church always part considered inspired scripture \( dealt previous postings reason repeat info \) 2 likely st john \( whomever \) wrote book revelation considered scripture thing holding hands ! one takes translation book rev 18 22 \( somewhere around \) mean scripture , us likely holding something violation command impossible exactly date scriptures , even n ones \( n't like date letters , guess \) really wish bible right get facts straight , believe several n letters , chief among 2 peter , likely date composition early second century revelation almost certainly written reign \( sp \? \) , 80 96 thus could argues sin accept 2 peter scripture , since added book composition revelation , told add nothing want get exact dates , get copy new american bible 'll try follow tomorrow remember mike walker uxa cso uiuc edu \( univ illinois \)
gt7122b prism gatech edu \( randal lee nicholas mandock \) subject capital punishment organization georgia institute technology lines 51 article may 11 02 37 49 1993 athos rutgers edu mmh dcs qmw ac uk \( matthew huntbach \) writes would say extent roman catholic church neither approves disapproves capital punishment , confirmed recent catechism , though many rcs rather surprised upset capital punishment explicitly condemned quote journal , 30 days church world , 1992 , 8 9 , p 29 regarding new draft universal catechism procuring common good society need could arise aggressor placed position cannot cause harm virtue , right obligation public authorities punish penalties , including death penalty , acknowledged similar reasons , authorities right impede aggressors society use arms church 's traditional teaching always expressed continue expressed consideration real conditions common good effective means preserving public order personal safety degree means death penalty military operations sufficient keep peace , non violent provisions preferred proportion keeping final goal protection peace human dignity clearly shown excerpt , church 's teaching capital punishment remains today always past total accord sentiment disagree use deadly force cases option justifiable think biblical quote automatically taken support capital punishment take roman catholic opposed abortion , would still wrong , something objected even authority seek conform god instrument visible church earth whenever question faith morals arises randal lee nicholas mandock catechist gt7122b prism gatech edu
koberg spot colorado edu \( allen koberg \) subject bible available every language \( satanic tounges \) organization university colorado , boulder lines 23 article may 9 05 38 18 1993 27323 athos rutgers edu bjorn b larsen delab sintef writes article may 5 02 53 10 1993 athos rutgers edu koberg spot colorado edu \( allen koberg \) writes concept tongues used pentecost seems outdated concept bible available nearly every language , missionaries languages , church need tongues \? guess least people able support claim still lot languages without bible , part bible still many languages able write , simply written version language yet defined ! yes , suppose 's true course , notice qualified nearly every language \) missionaries speak every imaginable language dialect , fact languages written gospel lends credence concept pentecost type since tongues occur places un written language , rather churches full people written language bible language
jek cu nih gov subject bible immaculate conception lines 35 andy byler writes biblical basis dogma immaculate conception put enmity serpent woman , seed seed , also read shall crush head shall bruise heel genesis 3 15 commits sin devil 1 john 3 8 hail , full grace greek , lord thee luke 1 28 hebrew genesis 3 15 , gender clearly masculine shall crush head , shall bruise heel latin feminine forms , accident grammar andrew stated means full grace perfection grace word used elsewhere new testament ephesians 1 6 unto praise glory grace , hath us beloved son \( translation \) cannot find indication dictionary verb implies anything strong andrew suggests , ephesians passage suggest verb means preserve taint original actual sin first moment existence like see comment meaning verb , preferably writer discussing luke 1 28 moment , james kiefer
jek cu nih gov subject two picked lines 35 gerry palo writes adam eve golgotha whole process fall man occurred involved gradual dimming consciousness spiritual world discernable world different peoples history greek , example , could say , better beggar land living king land dead \( iliad , think \) would swear nothing sort found iliad , first passage thought odyssey 11 480 thereabouts \( copy line numbers \) ghost speaks \( robert fitzgerald translation \) better , say , break sod farm hand poor country man , iron , lord exhausted dead next passage thought ecclesiastes 9 4 living dog better dead lion hand , one notion firmly embedded christianity originated definitely pagan source idea human consists essentially soul , soul created birth , consciously adopted aristotle , whose ideas dominated christian thought fifteen hundred years still today surely aristotle little influence christian thought 1250 ad , james kiefer
jek cu nih gov subject bernadette dates lines 14 joe moore writes mary time appeared girl named bernadette lourdes referred immaculate conception since nine year old would way knowing doctrine , apparition deemed true sealed case doctrine bernadette 14 years old visions , 1858 , four years dogma officially proclaimed pope , james kiefer
mmh dcs qmw ac uk \( matthew huntbach \) subject satanic tounges organization computer science dept , qmw , university london , uk lines 23 article may 10 05 08 50 1993 3730 athos rutgers edu bjorn b larsen delab sintef writes chose believe want , allowed define christianity see parts see something see , vice versa , give right play jokes belief ! important christianity damaged people speak tongues make claims miraculously speaking foreign language power holy spirit , easily shown simply making noises , damages christians , since many christians distinguish various sects modest claim tongues simply uncontrolled praise words fail surely one used make use practice agree point charismatic practices like lead forms worship worshipper showing genuine praise god one things jesus warned us matthew huntbach
jek cu nih gov subject jacob esau lines 47 gerry palo wrote nothing christianity excludes theory succession lives wrote apostle paul , romans 9 , speaks god choosing jacob esau , adds result anything either child done , since born yet clearly , paul believe previous lives , suppose readers believe previous lives , would make sense say , neither done anything good bad yet , since yet born daniel cossack writes ask whether fair god hate esau done nothing bad \? reply hebrew standard usage speak hating meant simply putting second place example , consider saying matthew 6 24 man serve two masters either hate one love , , obviously false man two masters must hate one obviously true must put one second place dog always comes either billy bobby calls problem stand different places call simultaneously cannot give first priority one must take second place original example , second place means jacob , esau , chosen bear covenant blessing obligation , ancestor christ eugene bigelow mentions matthew 11 14 says john baptist ye receive , elijah , come take mean john elijah like figure , dressing living like elijah , preaching like elijah , fulfilling prediction elijah would prepare way messiah think elijah literal sense , , , neither \( john 1 21 \) , james kiefer
brother roy almac co uk \( brother roy \) subject rfd soc religion taize organization almac bbs ltd 44 \( 0 \) 324 lines 114 nntp posting host rodan uu net rfd proposal newsgroup would promote sharing johannine hours proposed month monks ecumenical community taize \( pronounced te \) france name proposed newsgroup soc religion taize \( unmoderated \) purpose group taize community international ecumenical community monks based france many young adults come search meaning life deepen understanding faith sharing others newsgroup allow sharing monthly johannine hour posted beginning month johannine hour involves short commentary given bible passage , followed questions reflection thoughts may arise consequence wish share others posted interested theological debate , even less expertise required ! idea help one another deepen understanding scripture related life journey idea johannine hours born taize simple response trying bible 's message midst daily life work studies , often impossible spend long hours silence reflection , everyone take hour time time enter church , sit quietly home go walk woods , silence , meditate passage scripture listen voice christ time silence , important concentrate understand waste time worrying , biblical expressions , find difficult hear voice christ idea communicate others understood christ , rather telling brought us joy , led us run risk trusting deeply perhaps read think johannine hours newsgroup could share reflections discoveries others important thing two aspects , personal aspect silent , personal reflection communal aspect sharing , usenet makes us part worldwide network background taize community following provides background information life taize \( pronounced te \) community parable communion august 1940 , europe grip world war ii , brother roger , aged 25 , set home almost abandoned village taize , eastern france dream bring together community would live parable community , sign reconciliation midst distress time centering life prayer , used house conceal refugees , especially jews fleeing nazi occupation international ecumenical community taize 's founder spent first two years alone others joined later easter 1949 , seven brothers committed together common life celibacy year year , still others entered community , one making lifelong commitment several years preparation today , 90 brothers , catholics various protestant backgrounds , twenty different countries living small groups poor asia , africa , north south america brothers accept donations gifts , even family , community holds capital brothers earn living share others entirely work 1966 , sisters saint andrew , international catholic community founded 750 years ago , came live neighbouring village , share responsibility welcoming people taize taize young meetings young adults , less young , coming taize ever greater numbers since 1957 hundreds thousands people europe far beyond thus brought together common search meetings take place week , sunday sunday , throughout year include youth 35 60 countries one week meetings give person opportunity explore roots faith reflect unite inner life human solidarity meetings summer 6 , 000 participants week three times every day , brothers everybody hill come together common prayer church reconciliation , built 1962 village church became small pilgrimage trust earth community never wanted create movement around instead , people called commit church home , neighbourhood , city village support , taize created calls pilgrimage trust earth end year , pilgrimage european meeting brings together tens thousands young adults every part europe several days major city also meetings asia united states every year , brother roger writes open letter young usually completed stay one poor regions world , translated thirty languages provide themes following year note discussion creation newsgroup take place news groups information contact brother roy almac co uk brother roy almac co uk 1st 1 332 taize community , taize , france
jek cu nih gov subject legal definition religion lines 31 edgar pearlstein asks \( fri 7 may 1993 \) whether supreme court , government authority , attempted legal definition religion universal military training service act 1958 exempted draft whose religious training belief opposed participation war form defined r b individual 's belief relation supreme involving duties superior arising human relation , including essentially political , , philosophical views merely personal moral code 1965 case united states v , supreme court definition restrict explicit theists justice tom clark , delivering court 's opinion , said concluded congress , using expression supreme rather designation god , test belief relation whether given belief sincere meaningful occupies place life possessor parallel filled orthodox belief god one clearly qualifies exemption beliefs parallel positions lives respective holders cannot say one relation supreme immediate reference first freedom , nat , \( 1980 , dell 1981 \) , james kiefer
rexlex fnal fnal gov subject athiests hell organization fnal ad net lines 81 article may 11 02 36 29 1993 athos rutgers edu ptrei bistromath mitre org \( peter trei \) writes article may 9 05 38 49 1993 athos rutgers edu rexlex fnal fnal gov writes much deleted point today might masons \( note , worshipped osiris egypt \) much deleted bugs see kind nonsense first , reasonable evidence linking masonry ancient egypt , even existed prior late 14th century \( 's nothing definitive 17th \) uncle 30 level mason let look books \( death brothers came took widow body even cooled \) n't tell n't worship osiris must past 20th level read wilkinson 's egyptians shows egyptian religion british masonry man laboratory 33 degree black mason 've talked , though much likes hide \( mystery \) special first started trying evangelize , told kinds special , special truely mystery religion public side mania hospitals side highest degree mason every learns second , worship osiris , ever , part masonic practice \( strictly non denominational \) n't read , literature offered silver haired apologist \( ca n't remember name \) tv , n't exactly come conclusion , son great goddess mother , seems represented full grown god babylonian divinity also represented frequently land e child mother 's way osiris , 'the son , husband mother , ' often exhibited , learn god , equally case , shows original none nimrod admitted secret system free masonry originally founded mysteries egyptian isis , goddess mother , wife osiris could led union masonic body mysteries , particular reference architecture , god worshipped celebrated success arts building \? , case , considering relation , already seen , egypt stood babylon , would naturally great patron masonic art \? strong presumption , nimrod must man first gained way child babylonian goddess mother , worshipped character ala , 'the god ' osiris , child egyptian , equally celebrated 'the strong chief buildings ' strong chief buildings worshipped egypt every characteristic nimrod already noticed fact nimrod , son , negro , tradition egypt , recorded plutarch , hislop like cold slap face , uncle brought dress leopard skin mean real leopard skin told highest degrees wore leopard skin \( reason started telling given couple months live wife led saving faith christ immediately repented lodge ! \) rod , leopard , rad subdue universal principle , high priest wears insignia god serves representation osiris usually show wearing leopard interesting druids also show , say hide , representation , however , worshipped spotted cow 'll stand statements masonry mystery religions find source babylon , great sorry peter , mean cold slap face much evidence contrary masonry n't find origins egypt masons personally talked , refered egypt origin separating many years ago , freely admitted \? rex
hall vice ico tek com \( hal f lillywhite \) subject eternal marriage \( mormon temples \) organization tektronix inc , beaverton , lines 65 article may 11 02 39 09 1993 athos rutgers edu dhammers pacific \? \( david hammerslag \) writes paragraph brought mind question \( mormons \) reconcile idea eternal marriage christ 's statement ressurection people neither marry given marriage \( luke , chapt 20 \) \? well , something wrote time ago response similar question hope helps begin repeat previous post scripture mentioned agree seem problem , eternal marriage marriage general luke 's version jesus saying children world marry given marriage attain kingdom heaven almost sounds like marriage one salvation \( matthew mark omit statement \) think accounts clear might let 's look incident see come reasonable ideas means scriptures involved mat 22 23 30 , mark 12 18 25 , luke 20 27 36 happened sadducees , believe resurrection , thought could trap jesus made reference marriage required brother man died without children take widow wife raise children children would considered children deceased , though woman 's first husband fathered seems obvious woman still considered way wife first husband however , sadducees scene 6 brothers deceased turn failed father children widow seem imply marriage equal first ask , whose wife shall resurrection \? point seems obvious anybody 's wife , first husband , borne children would credited regardless brother biological father possible jesus refering says , ye err , knowing scriptures power god \( mat 22 29 , compare mark 12 24 , phrase luke 's account \) anyway , sadducees ask , whose wife resurrection , seeing 7 \? jesus answer , resurrection neither marry given marriage \( mat 22 30 \) rise dead neither marry \( mark 12 25 \) accounted worthy obtain world neither marry \( luke 20 35 \) 3 accounts go say , angels heaven equivalent find last helpful since bible define angels give idea life like \( ministers claim , different humans etc find biblical support \) think jesus saying \( clearest matthew 's mark 's accounts \) marriages performed resurrection goes along belief person marry must done earth however , believe marriage performed authority god binding eternity fact , first marriage appears performed god death entered world \( garden eden \) therefore god hath joined together , let man put \( mat 19 6 \) jesus also told peter apostles whatsoever bind earth bound heaven \( mat 16 19 , 18 18 \) believe also refers marriages performed proper authority
nevada edu \( miller \) subject christian counseling psychology folks \? organization univ nevada , las vegas grad student , miller lines 20 hello hoping net netters helping professions \( counseling , psychology , psychiatry , social work , therapy etc \) network topics consider possibility sci counseling christian type newsgroup list integration psychology counseling theology subject great debate one particular interest 're , please know email direct get know one another news miller unlv helios nevada edu
smayo world std com \( scott mayo \) subject dreams body incidents organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 66 dt4 cs hub ucsb edu \( david e goggin \) writes i'm fairly new groups , tho' heard welcome 'd like get comments question mind lot morals ethics apply dreams body incidents \? normal dreams , ca n't control anything , obviously n't morally responsible actions hm get little around phrase n't morally responsible , perhaps 've heard misused many times \( remember college folk trying argue person drunk morally responsible actions \) general , folk ca n't control dreams , perhaps day think impact , hm \? i'm sure actions dream note jesus seem adamant fact thought life least important actions go lightly argument morally responsible dreams might well important part , seem 3 alternatives 1 \) dreams oobes totally mental phenomena case morality applies beyond might called , , trying think anything evil , overly sexy violent thoughts n't know thing body experiences 've dreams , fairly vivid ones oobe vivid dream \? would argue extreme interest sort phenomena tad risky probably much better think jesus , relation , cultivate strong interest dreams unless feel plagued dreams painful control pray get help 2 \) dreams oobes reality \( e \) evidence often dreams oobes sometimes done common one person earth definition often \? know exactly one case two people substantially dream time , brothers spent day things could see dreams might similiar anyway , plane know spiritual realm n't think anyone 's dreams , perhaps outside occasional prophet 's , represent actual actions alternate plane real actions , conscious thoughts , yes would direct moral significance 3 \) like \( 2 \) , assume garbled text dream occurs different environment , different moral laws apply guess said n't see slightest hint christian writings ones environment changes way person determines moral christian wo n't always come jesus would us \? one cases truth , anyone know another alternative \? respond post email truth \? n't claim expert dreams 'll note bible n't talk much dreams outside realm god using speak us , caveat messages always clear , warns somewhere ot given , would give lot attention unless feel dreams trying tell something would discount talk alternate planes , though places concepts commonly bandied part hostile christianity , though 've run occasional exception , want , christian , want careful ideas like
e p unl edu \( edgar pearlstein \) subject bastards \( mormon beliefs bastards \) organization university nebraska lincoln lines 7 relevance posts subject might deut 23 2 , bastard shall enter congregation lord even tenth generation shall enter congregation lord
creps lateran ucs indiana edu \( stephen creps \) subject doctrine original sin organization indiana university lines 15 article may 11 02 38 18 1993 athos rutgers edu adamsj gtewd mtv gtegsc com writes 2 samuel 12 21 23 \( rsv \) anyhow , many interpret mean child gone heaven \( david someday go \) n't claim know sure applies babies even 's one , would say \? brings interesting question interpretation correct , would people getting heaven jesus opened gates heaven \? steve creps , indiana university creps lateran ucs indiana edu
hudson athena cs uga edu \( paul hudson jr \) subject dreams body incidents organization university georgia , athens lines 44 article may 11 02 37 40 1993 athos rutgers edu dt4 cs hub ucsb edu \( david e goggin \) writes 'd like get comments question mind lot morals ethics apply dreams body incidents \? normal dreams , ca n't control anything , obviously n't morally responsible actions contrive control action dreams oobe , seems like morality applies think someone often immoral dreams , like dreams , dreams commit acts violence , etc etc may sign something sinful heart may holy spirit 's way allowing sinfulness us come light pray removed generally , one pure heart , sets mind things holy , holy even dreams dreams also lord joseph two examples people bible received dreams lord regarding body experiences , something careful called oobe spiritual nature , especially one saw experience witnessed someone else christians certainly avoid occult activity would generate body experience things might called oobe might actually lord paul wrote might oobe ii corinthians 12 , wrote spiritual experience caught third heaven oobe truely oobe \? one really leave body , seeing image shown spirit , demon holy spirit \? n't think matters much paul could tell may , careful open satan experience oobe 's meditate pretend place spirits apparently float dangerous god wants us seems like oobe , sovereign bible , often seems prophets taken god 's sovereign , seeking oobe john spirit praying lord 's day caught visions received talking jewish leaders caught visions god one time god wants take one us vision , people careful open evil spirits sake link hudson
creps lateran ucs indiana edu \( stephen creps \) subject doctrine original sin organization indiana university lines 31 article may 11 02 39 02 1993 athos rutgers edu eugene bigelow ebay sun com writes obviously applies equally well infants adults , since souls infants must baptized , therefore , cannot enter heaven need form life , cannot enter heaven saying baptism nothing asking jesus come heart accepting savior , ritual must go enable us enter heaven \? n't think joe saying thing however , question asking jesus come heart seems imply infants allowed christ must baptism always viewed people sort prodigal son type thing e sudden change heart , going accepting christ suddenly accepting christ \? ca n't people start christ shortly birth , build relationship \? , man suddenly meet woman , marry day \? experiences , 've learned relationships must built , including one 's relationship god also joe speaking standpoint baptism ritual , god bestows grace upon recipient certainly mental faculties know christ necessary believe however , bestows grace recipient , makes permanent mark adoption god 's family soul steve creps , indiana university creps lateran ucs indiana edu
jek cu nih gov subject 2 peter 1 20 lines 22 wrote thought 2 peter 1 20 meant , prophecy scripture \( , one reader suggests , written prophecy \) merely private opinion writer tony replies \( sat 8 may 1993 \) turn implies subject private interpretation reader either sure understand one sense , statement another subject private interpretation reliable historians tell lost war , cannot simply interpret away wanted win facts facts go away want otherwise another sense , every statement subject private interpretation , depend brains decide means , whether sufficiently well attested merit assent even statement occurs inspired writing , still decide , using best judgement , whether fact inspired arrogance inescapable fact , james kiefer
hudson athena cs uga edu \( paul hudson jr \) subject earthquake prediction organization university georgia , athens lines 20 article may 11 02 37 28 1993 athos rutgers edu dan ingres com \( rose arose \) writes 4 god call prophet misrepresent god 's word , calling would lost forever god 's word would command people never listen fear words would false prophet bridges would burnt forever perhaps could repent saved , could never prophet god though command law heed one prophecies falsely , still possible one prophecied falsely prophecy truely take , example story kings man god judah came israel prophecied king lord commanded eat drink till returned home another prophet wanted man god stay house , prophecied falsely lord wanted man god stay house ate drank house , lord gave prophet lied word man god would die breaking word lord came pass link hudson
hudson athena cs uga edu \( paul hudson jr \) subject homosexual issues christianity organization university georgia , athens lines 24 's ambiguity meaning words passage quote liberal conservative sources seem agree homosexual general term homosexuals , likely meaning like homosexual prostitute understand experience looking word , discussing greek literate individual , meaning word rather clear basically literally means beds man sex man burden proof pro homosexuality side argument show word meaning evident literal meaning one speculate day long might mean something else , need evidence create new doctrines , get rid historical understanding meaning word link hudson 've read enough discussions passage , liberal conservative sources , sure meaning even literal meaning certain n't mean one ca n't come conclusion , mean think 's doubt paul thinks homosexuality plausible arguments couple different meanings clh
sfp lemur cit cornell edu \( sheila patterson \) subject mary 's assumption organization cornell university cit lines 22 article may 11 02 37 01 1993 athos rutgers edu , mpaul unl edu \( marxhausen paul \) writes feeling assumption mary would better phrased text deleted also n't see necessity saying holy parents sanctified beyond normal humanity sounds like inability grasp immensity god 's grace incarnated dinary human text deleted paul marxhausen thank much paul always impressed human ness mary god chose woman , like , bring world incarnation proves god god reaches perfection touch ah , wonder \) sheila patterson , cit cr technical support group 315 ccc cornell university ithaca , ny 14853 \( 607 \) 255
dan ingres com \( rose arose \) subject arrogance christians organization representing views company lines 122 news cbnewsk att com writes arrogance arrogance result religion , result people knowing firmly believing idea one 's desire show others one 's rightness assume god decided judge sake much , allow kind merciful judge , 'll probably better others judged us judged i'm sure agree 100 agree arrogance result religion god far better judge also agree mean say arrogance shows form trying prove one 's superior knowledge , rightness , holiness another person 's beliefs need careful understand mean fall mistake misrepresenting views fall area hope forgive arrogance result believing one right believing one 's god greater god 's others believing one 's religion better religions naturally self implied beliefs self contradictory say believe current beliefs wrong find error , beliefs would naturally change follow believe right therefore , must always consider beliefs correct 's arrogance 's unavoidable behavior nonsense say believe another person 's god greater god god greater , would n't obligated change god would become god \? naturally obligated worship god deem greatest feel obligated worship second best god sake feeling humble \? arrogance necessarily thinking better looking intelligent stronger resources another person doubt many chew one awhile passive observation one 's superior points arrogance , god would arrogant humility rest slandering god 's work creation lives people often go around trying humble saying one another , i'm smart i'm poor i'm good looking i'm worm ground i'm weak person although n't want sin , really cannot help person truely humble , would take different approach god , thank making way know never anything second best yet given , 've given power resist devil used exactly said creation life credited humility lord , 've given , completely deserve forgiveness , yet love would give die save terribly evil , deserve go straight hell , yet pleases somehow rescue terrible life 've led lord , please forgive help stay right track bring glory name instead insult lord i'm sorry wrongs please help change think people take exceptional offense religious arrogance n't want wrong find someone arrogant , typically n't anything , 've often found hard tell difference often times , humble christian come across arrogant proud worm ground false humility type person found comfortable company i'm wrong arrogant wrongness , certainly n't feel like confronted wrongness someone confront verbally wrongness , 'd likely snap examine head toe faults charge said root , desire would make shut go living life arrogantly wish however , someone confront silently example , earn respect , perhaps mention humility private , 'd feel broken challenged seek god help changing error ways hard part getting point humble anyone regardless humility pride regardless sincerity regardless whether upon n't easy take pain love opportunity improve one 's ability serve god 's easier cast aside hope reaching true humility merely hide behind slandering god 's creation lives instead examine hope typed back right react certain situations emotions instance , many us feel justified insulted arrogant person needed reason feel insulted insulted words others , 'd think 'd either decide insulted , ignore insult justify feelings anger insult outrage , n't make reaction appropriate one light self examination change emotional reactions sometimes helps understand feel difference true statement character false slanderous statement character devil would love us feel hopelessly guilty innocent feel arrogant self righteous indeed wrong devil 's aim get us much misery think devil cruel less criminal parent burning children hot way devil gets father 's skin hurting father loves much deplore horrible crime child murder want prevention , merely punishment must reach root evil practiced whose souls revolt dreadful deed mater motive , love ease , desire save suffering unborn innocent , woman awfully guilty commits deed oh ! thrice guilty drove desperation impelled crime susan b anthony , revolution july 8 , 1869
petch gvg47 gvg tek com \( chuck \) subject daily verse lines 4 receive power holy spirit comes witnesses jerusalem , judea samaria , ends earth acts 1 8
creps lateran ucs indiana edu \( stephen creps \) subject doctrine original sin organization indiana university lines 63 article may 11 02 39 07 1993 athos rutgers edu eugene bigelow ebay sun com writes babies supposed baptised n't bible ever say never comes right says people know right wrong taught baptised sound argument babies assumes bible n't say specifically n't need something , must mean need know 's specific term form logic , escapes right however , sound , able apply way bible n't specifically say something wrong , must ok , , coincidentally , leads perfectly question 've often pondered less logical assumption something bible , must done n't really think 's 's saying anyway see slavery immoral \( believe , assume everyone else group \? \) , n't jesus apostles speak \? owning slaves common practice back paul speaks everything else immoral apparently thought important enough talk things like n't anyone mention slavery \? god 's morals eternal n't change like morals society , must immoral today letter \? paul least hints certain slave released also , slavery times type slavery u think better comparison would n't really want get discussion slavery anyway , although demonstrate point , n't think relevent , original poster say absence specific proves something immoral back original poster 's assertion fact making logical error accuse stated fact bible say babies cannot baptized also , know bible says everyone must baptized enter heaven everyone includes infants , unless scripture contrary , e exception since exception listed bible , must assume \( safe side \) bible means says , everyone must baptized enter heaven baptize infants summarize , accused original poster saying something forbidden bible , proves ok e something cannot disproven , true rather seemed asserting since bible forbid , cannot prove , using bible , ok difference proving whether something proven disproven \( theories field logic , way \) actually proving disproving logical error must avoid falling converse something cannot proven , false seems error many sola scriptura believers think thing proven one cannot use scripture alone prove something either way infant baptism , although evidence seems favor steve creps , indiana university creps lateran ucs indiana edu
koberg spot colorado edu \( allen koberg \) subject satanic tounges organization university colorado , boulder lines 72 article may 11 02 38 52 1993 athos rutgers edu hudson athena cs uga edu \( paul hudson jr \) writes article may 9 05 40 36 1993 athos rutgers edu koberg spot colorado edu \( allen koberg \) writes hmmm old testament story tower babel , see god punished giving us different language assume angels language , one amongst angels \? , punished manner languages result babel , stands reason angels would speak different language us valid point multiple angelic languages angelic beings maybe different species speak maybe different species communicate differently n't know either truth known , little known angels even guess really know angels always speak tongue person 're talking , perhaps n't language trouble , stories abound , attempts verification \( test spirit \) either show witness real idea circumstances , outright fabrication involved brother puka story previous post seems like friend friend thing , two syllable word hardly qualifies language , inflection heard eyewitness account , things hard prove n't lend laboratory thing well don' know holy thing take gifts laboratory anyway well , told test spirits could , see someones claims backed bible , see nothing wrong making sure guy lazarus really dead 's alive much many faith healers trouble proving victories \( since cured plain unprovable \) modern day never validated , true modern day proved clergy lay 's unprovable statement prove somethings proved \? way know 've seen evidence saw records complete photographs showing one patients severe cured constant prayer 's common fallacy commit non trick prove evidence may seen \? answer ca n't fallacy assuming prove anything say never proven , i'm talking ones making claims , skeptics , proving burden proof rest unfortunately , \( warning \) legal system seems headed dangerous realm making people prove innocence \( end \) truthfully , corinthians poorly written \( maybe poorly translated english \) much remains unknown paul really intended \( despite claims hard proof one way another \) see writings 1 cor 12 14 saying n't n't using sarcasm , metaphor , etc yet others take says literally metaphors notwithstanding \? read 1 cor 14 praying speaking tongues regarding building oneself church , see using compare contrast , saying build church , builds \( implying n't \) 's common usage writing employ , easily seen could interpreted way n't mystery
bluelobster cmu edu \( david hunt \) subject got saved organization carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 44 first important point regardless recovery happened , i'm glad ! 10 may 93 got saved user karen camelot brad writes found ore coincidental less 2 weeks put faith mouth , one long line doctors even specialist , diagnosed problems difficulty , set path effective cure , walking running without pain stopped 4 years diagnosis something felt doctors must overlooked perfectly obvious test results ! point 'll try make like occur high frequency many us thinking someone person call \? much whole psychic phenomenon easily one forgets misses consider newspaper many times said 's vs 's \? 'll remember hits , misses much frequent 10 may 93 got saved user karen camelot brad writes maybe n't hit miraculous really imagine active 17 year old told may able walk longer happy 18 year old dance run knowing problem along revealed knew right song says , instead healed , affliction got much worse ended paralyzed \? would attributed god well \? would work satan \? believe would , good god , evil satan \? could n't agony come god \? think poor job ! david hunt graduate slave mind towards mechanical engineering ideas opinions palestinian carnegie mellon university use golden rule v2 0 jewish homeland ! h e r e n g h e r e n g email bluelobster cmu edu working towards piled higher deeper !
mdw hr att com \( mark wuest \) subject doctrine original sin organization lines 53 article may 11 02 38 56 1993 athos rutgers edu eugene bigelow ebay sun com writes eugene bigelow writes n't bible say god fair god sic \? true , possibly fair infants \? andrew byler writes mean fair \? god , giving everyone deserve infants sin time conception \( cf romans 5 12 , psalm 1 7 \) , cannot possibly merit heaven , purgatory purging temporal punishment sins , impossible sin forgiven fair punish , rest humanity adam eve \? suppose parents committed crime born one day cops come door throw jail would really think fair \? know would n't well , suppose mother crack addict crack user abuser pregnant \? suppose husband gave \( recently happened close friend wife mine \) \? often , consequences sin least partially inflicted innocent people several times ot , pointed , even saying descendants would suffer consequences person 's sin several generations even today , see multi \( coin phrase \) effects , child abuse , abuse name three , god 's definition fair differ points perspective though predisposition towards sinning \( see webster 's first definition \) thanks adam , arrogant foolish us think would done different shoes know pretty well , i'm good take god 's word , neither one righteous important , person decides disciple jesus , god promises supernatural help overcoming physical self 's sinful tendency , course , choose ignore help \( rom 7 , 8 \) god made mankind upright , men gone search many schemes mark mark wuest opinions , 's ! ! mdw violin hr att com \( sun mailtool ok \) mdw trumpet hr att com \( next mail \)
andy bgsu edu \( ken \) subject faq essay homosexuality organization bowling green state university b g , oh lines 22 moderator writes believe one could take view like even accepting views paul expressed rom 1 one may believe homosexuality god intended , occured result sin , still conclude times live note creation story work enters human life result sin n't mean christians stop working saved please note god commanded adam work fall lord god took man put garden eden work take care \( gen 2 15 , niv \) work god 's design beginning ken 'll clarify wording obviously rather different kind labor imposed fall , statement stands misleading clh
rick granberry pts mot com \( rick granberry \) subject faq essay homosexuality lines 62 file faqs \( \) , might want correct typo following kinsey \( see \) source figure 10 percent defines sexuality behavior , orientation , ranked persons scale zero \( completely heterosexual \) 6 \( completely heterosexual \) seems one end rating scale identified homosexual personal note , guess differ question work entering human life result sin note creation story work enters human life result sin fall \( gen 2 15 \) lord god took man , put garden eden dress keep would call work , difference introduced sin painful aspects work added fall \( take cursing ground vs 17 19 apply work \) way , view work blessing \( ecclesiastes fun book ! \) hope sound , maybe enlighten well , certainly delicate subject , guess accomplished state purpose summarizes arguments allowing christian homosexuality , noble goal , writing faq wonder might apparent sentence specific homosexual propose \( arguably define \) danger advising christians depend upon change clear conversion n't happen , almost always , people often left despair , feeling excluded church nothing say requirement life long celibacy perhaps would true celibacy homosexual relations , choice relationships , forbid heterosexual could enjoy heterosexual relations worth \? depends upon person cases think answer even could , consider 're asking assume 're talking marriage certainly would want suggest sex outside 're talking permanent commitment kind sexual relationship n't really sure live may people possible solution , wonder whether 's entirely fair partner cousin victim exactly situation found later \( death \) husband problems sexual identity family \( conservative christians \) knew , pushed getting married continued problems , near divorce died accident whose circumstances relatives consider odd since sex change operation , moving around state state without able hold job , keeping children kind home life sets grandparents consider irresponsible hope understand enthusiastic pushing homosexuals marriage really liked cousin sort emotional issue , may possible , sort situation needs dealt matter fixed ideology clh
hudson athena cs uga edu \( paul hudson jr \) subject homosexuality issues christianity organization university georgia , athens lines 15 article may 11 02 36 45 1993 athos rutgers edu news cbnewsk att com writes paul repeatedly talks thorn side , think refers lust , others pride , knows whatever thorn , apparently compatible christianity , yet make epistles less \? reason believe paul 's thorn flesh sin life makes little sense light writings taken writes presses mark , keeps body submitted doubt paul struggle flesh like every christian paul associate thorn satanic messenger , physical tribulation , sin life link hudson
creps lateran ucs indiana edu \( stephen creps \) subject catholic doctrine predestination organization indiana university lines 20 article may 11 02 37 03 1993 athos rutgers edu noye midway uchicago edu writes really \? may right , 'd like proof far know \( div school student ! \) catholic church seem accept predestination told beware greeks bearing gifts reference doctrine seems curious result human beings held responsible actions ! 'll answer deal minute catholic doctrine predestination exclude free way since god knows everything , therefore knows everything going happen us free , able change happens us however , since god knows everything , knows choices make advance \( god subject time \) often arguments pit predestination free believe steve creps , indiana university creps lateran ucs indiana edu
jek cu nih gov subject quoted argument theism lines 26 sun 2 may 1993 , damon wrote christian friend mine reasoned never created , could exists therefore created , therefore exists creator hesitate comment validity , know friend meant meant whatever exists must created , open obvious retort god exists , god must created perhaps friend meant exist time exist , therefore something must brought us existence seems plausible , atheist might reply , parents \? friend would explain infinite regress causes satisfactory explanation would support philosophers ordinarily considered religious \( ayn rand , others tradition aristotle \) argued first cause , would bridge gap said entity god abraham merely asserts things observe ultimately dependent things radically unlike , physicists would disagree , james kiefer
stud \( ann \) subject got saved organization college lines 11 hello , \? ! i'm norwegian journalist student also christian thanks testimony ! want ask one question think heavy metal music became christian \? know christian bands like barren cross , , , play kind music like , feel like sometimes course listen lyrics n't listen christian band , 's better listening secular music anyway hope 're still going strong christ ! ! ann , college , norway
creps lateran ucs indiana edu \( stephen creps \) subject doctrine original sin organization indiana university lines 44 article may 11 02 38 56 1993 athos rutgers edu eugene bigelow ebay sun com writes st augustine said , invent original sin , catholic faith holds ancient time , deny , without doubt follower new heresy \( de , lib 11 c 12 \) fair punish , rest humanity adam eve \? suppose parents committed crime born one day cops come door throw jail would really think fair \? know would n't may think fair , many sins know affect sinner \? fair us even able get heaven \? right heaven , even lead sinless lives \? anyway , argument seems saying , god , certainly would n't things way therefore , god n't things way isaiah 55 8 9 thoughts thoughts , neither ways ways , saith lord heavens higher earth , ways higher ways , thoughts thoughts original sin biblical romans 5 12 14 wherefore , one man sin entered world , death sin death passed upon men , sinned \( law sin world sin imputed law nevertheless death adam moses , even sinned adam 's transgression , figure come 1 corinthians 15 22 adam die , even christ shall made alive steve creps , indiana university creps lateran ucs indiana edu
crs carson u washington edu \( cliff slaughterbeck \) subject homosexuality issues christiani organization university washington , seattle lines 58 ofm writes issue throughout presbyterian church side , one major churches cincinnati homosexual elders , ignored instructions church rochester judicial commission said could n't install homosexual pastor made evangelist situations , well one describe , appear stable certainly major topic general assembly next month church ca n't come solution let people live , think 're end split clearly neither side wants , think 'll get pushed actions sides clh moderator general assembly , rev john fife , visited church week ago \( 4 days rev 's busy week small church ! ! \) asked specifically issue homosexuality thinks happen ga meeting next month evidently , 15 20 known resolutions pending range outlawing homosexuality altogether legalizing completely readily admit difficult issue church deal since presbyterian church split two issue slavery 100 years ago without question , issue may split church 've reunited dozen years hopeful pushing attitude helped church deal abortion issue last year solution hoping pass resolution less states , members church agree disagree issue , admitting sides honestly studied scriptures spirit lead different conclusions worked last year abortion issue threatened less thing , hopeful ga foster loving caring attitude people disagree view cliff slaughterbeck dept physics , fm 15 's time sermon university washington grand ! seattle , wa 98195 's going hard agree disagree allow disagreement , churches going ordain people others recognize 's difficult situation church could live , think lot people would willing note church willing live kind compromise ordination women one thing definitely prevent person becoming presbyterian minister indicate n't accept ordination women argument ca n't half church accepting leaders half maybe people decide live case n't , wonder admit submitted ga would exactly effect , considered ambiguity better current situation clh
mserv mozart cc iup edu \( mail server \) subject homosexual issues christianity lines 76 whitsebd nextwork rose hulman edu \( bryan whitsell \) sent list verses felt condemn homosexuality mls panix com \( michael siemon \) wrote response verses used us incredibly perverse interpretations others simply address issues response , wrote see verses clearly address issues , however , couple seem though require incredibly perverse interpretations order seen condemning homosexuality deceived neither fornicators , idolators , adulterers , effeminate , homosexuals , thieves , covetous , drunkards , revilers , swindlers , shall inherit kingdom god cor 6 9 11 would someone care comment fact seems say fornicators inherit kingdom god \? apply homosexuals \? understand fornication sex outside marriage accurate definition \? thing sex marriage bible \? understanding always new testament blesses sexual intercourse husband wife , however , willing listen scriptural evidence contrary remainder post deleted moderator made comments would like address 's ambiguity meaning words passage quote liberal conservative sources seem agree homosexual general term homosexuals , likely meaning like homosexual prostitute n't meant think biblical evidence , nature evidence ca n't quote one verse solve things referring terms effeminate homosexuals passage , agree accuracy translation challenged however , simply commenting charge incredibly perverse interpretation read condemnation homosexuality charge seems imply reasonable person would ever conclude verse paul intended condemn homosexuality however , think see reasonable person might well take view verse therefore believe incredibly perverse read way think argument fornication circular homosexuality wrong \? 's fornication fornication \? 're married n't married \? church refuses marriage ceremony church refuse marriage ceremony \? homosexuality wrong order break circle 's got reason think homosexuality wrong clh actually , n't thinking church , couple n't married minister secular justice peace could job , two people would married point easy find biblical basis heterosexual marriage , bible would one get christian marriage two people sex \? see biblical basis sex marriages , willing would gay christians save marriage never sexual intercourse anyone outside marriage relationship \? please note trying imply gay christians would willing monogamous , genuinely interested hearing opinions subject heard comments gays past lead believe regard promiscuity one main points homosexual , yet tend doubt gays want christian would advocate position gay view \? mark yes , agree reasonable person might conclude paul condemning homosexuality responding certain details posting n't mean agree michael respects clh
mserv mozart cc iup edu \( mail server \) subject dreams body incidents lines 19 dt4 cs hub ucsb edu \( david e goggin \) writes 1 \) dreams oobes totally mental phenomena case morality 2 \) dreams oobes reality \( e \) 3 \) like \( 2 \) , assume though oobe environs real existence , different moral ethics apply , \( maybe different \) moral laws apply think another alternative 4 \) oobe 's form contact demonic world , whereby one intentionally unintentionally control perceptions spiritual beings whose purpose deceive mark
tcs tulane edu tulane edu \( jonah lin \) subject satanic tounges organization tulane university , new orleans , la lines 14 article may 9 05 40 36 1993 athos rutgers edu koberg spot colorado edu \( allen koberg \) writes hmmm old testament story tower babel , see god punished giving us different language assume angels language , one amongst angels \? , punished manner maybe babel , everyone including angels spoke language , babel , god punished us giving us languages different original one 's case , angels would speaking tongue mankind spoke babel jonah
revdak netcom com \( andrew kille \) subject homosexuality issues christianity organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 38 dan schaertel , , , \( dps nasa kodak com \) wrote article 15441 geneva rutgers edu , loisc microsoft com \( lois christiansen \) writes might visit congregations christians , happen homosexuals , spirit filled believers , go lumping us together troy perry gee , think real criminals \( robbers , , drug addicts \) appear fun loving caring people 's point \? ok people nice \? point nice nice christian virtue point gifts fruits spirit \( fruits shall know mt 7 20 \) manifested among , spirit filled gay christians manifestation spirit among gentiles convinced peter \( acts 10 \) prejudice \( based scripture , might add \) accordance god 's intentions think old saying hate sin sinner appropriate many belive homosexuality wrong probably n't hate people n't n't hate kids wrong either tell right , lie n't admit wrong , n't make effort improve repent , get punished think quite appropriate may want careful think satan working maybe trying destroy sense right wrong feel maybe trying convince know god kind like adam eve story read compare today 's mentality may suprised course whole issue one may satan trying convince us know god may god trying \( god peter \) teach us something n't know god shows , every nation anyone fears right acceptable \( acts 10 34 35 \) revdak netcom com
revdak netcom com \( andrew kille \) subject deuterocanonicals , esp sirach organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 102 poram ihlpb att com wrote lets talk principles accept god sets standards ought included scripture ask 1 authoritative \? authoritative quality writing statement community faith whether accept writing 2 prophetic \? prophecy defined \? speaking forth god 's message , much apocrypha must surely qualify 3 authentic \? , standard \? authenticity function authors \? historical accuracy \? 4 dynamic \? supposed mean \? many apocryphal books highly dynamic thought provoking , faithful , even exciting 5 received , collected , read used \? \? course apocryphal books received \( \) , collected \( else would \) , read used \( still , catholic orthodox churches \) counts , apocrapha falls short glory god demonstrably false quote unger 's bible dictionary apocrapha 1 abound historical geographical inaccuracies anachronisms books bible 2 teach doctrines false foster practices variance sacred scripture false whose interpretation \? churches accept find contradiction rest scripture 3 resort literary types display subject matter styling keeping sacred scripture purely subjective evaluation apocryphal books demonstrate categories forms writing found scriptures \( fact , one could argue apocryphal additions book esther act rather bring book esther line books \) 4 lack distinctive elements give genuine scripture divine character , prophetic power poetic religious feeling ever read wisdom ben sira wisdom solomon \? exhibit every bit much poetic religious feeling psalms proverbs deletions view words warn everyone hears words prophecy book anyone adds anything , god add plagues described book anyone takes away book prophecy , god take away share tree life holy city \( rev 22 18 9 \) surely sets standard man made traditions words clearly meant refer book revelation alone , whole body scripture revelation accepted late canon church simply see primary role kind identifying limiting scripture also noteworthy consider jesus' attitude argument pharisees ot canon \( john 10 31 6 \) , explained followers road emmaus law , prophets psalms referred ot division scripture \( luke 24 44 \) , well luke 11 51 taking genesis chronicles \( jewish order would say genesis malachi \) scripture jesus refer canon simple reason day , canon established closed collection books apocrypha part septuagint \( bible early church \) hebrew canon closed 90 c e torah \( law \) established jesus' day , prophets \( exclusion daniel \) writings , however , still flux jesus refer writings , psalms , part books apocrypha part literature eventually separated argue jesus referring jewish canonical order luke 11 51 weak best quoting scripture , telling chronological story , mentioned , hebrew canon \( especially present order \) exist jesus' day revdak netcom com
wagner grace math uh edu \( david wagner \) subject deuterocanonicals , esp sirach organization uh dept math lines 67 larry larry l overacker shellgate ! llo uu4 psi com writes , dave davis , wrote deutero canonical books added much later church 's history spiritual quality rest scripture believe church added books guided spirit sort discussion ultimately ends sorry , put foot mouth , concerning church 's history correct say council hippo 393 listed books among accepted use church , ratified council carthage , pope \( 414 ad \) yet 's history church says end fourth century views still differed regard extent canon , number books acknowledged divine authoritative jewish canon , hebrew bible , universally received , apocrypha added greek version septuagint general way accounted books suitable church reading , thus middle class canonical strictly apocryphal \( pseudonymous \) writings justly books , great historical value , fill gap old testament new , originated cessation prophecy , cannot therefore regarded inspired , ever cited christ western church canon closed end fourth century authority jerome \( , however , critical doubts principle tradition \) , especially augustine , firmly followed alexandrian canon septuagint , tradition reference catholic epistles revelation though , places , consider old testament apocrypha deutero canonical , bearing subordinate authority history goes say augustine attended council hippo carthage interesting note , however , following footnote fourth session council trent footnote lists various endorsed lists canonical books , says list decree first infallible declaration canon holy scriptures leads one think rc canon official trent thus previous erroneous statement entirely groundless also interesting note council trent went uphold old latin vulgate edition scriptures authentic , would suppose , today 's catholic scholars wish council never said also council made distinction deutero canonical canonical books contrast \( 's statement \) fourth century views david wagner confessional lutheran
fortmann superbowl und ac za \( paul fortmann pg \) subject praying justice organization university natal \( durban \) lines 650 recently came across article found interesting posted hear people feel issue realise rather long \( 12 pages wordperfect \) may well worth read except first page \( typed \) rest scanned omnipage f 's come 's visa versa tried correct much possible author peter hammond founder frontline fellowship , missionary organisation witnessing communist countries southern africa also made several visits many east european countries frontline fellowship news 1018 praying justice \( peter hammond \) involved christians suffering persecution imprecatory psalms tremendous source comfort us fighting right life , battling social evils pornography crime , beginning appreciate important weapon god entrusted us imprecatory psalms imprecatory psalms early christian walk encountered prayers judgement psalms quite loss know respond prayers break arm wicked evil men call account wickedness psalm 10 15 seem consistent gospel love accepted yet psalm 10 15 clearly motivated love god \( lord king ever ever nation perish land 10 16 , wicked man god \? 10 13 \) , love innocent suffer \( hear , lord , desire afflicted encourage , listen cry , defending oppressed , order man , earth , may 10 17 18 \) nevertheless , grew increasingly uncomfortable reading graphic prayers god judge wicked pour wrath let fierce anger overtake 64 24 lord , god , god , shine forth rise , judge earth , pay back proud deserve 95 1 2 break teeth mouths , god let vanish like water let arrows righteous glad , feet blood wicked men way , surely righteous still rewarded surely god judges earth ' 58 6 11 certainly wanted god honoured yes deeply prevalence evil could actually pray god pour wrath wicked \? scripture make clear prayers prayed selfish motives , personal enemies rather prayed christ , glory enemies psalmist describes targets devise injustice heart whose hands mete violence \( 58 2 \) boast evil disgrace eyes god tongue plots destruction , like razor , practise deceit love evil rather good , falsehood rather speaking truth 52 1 3 crush people widow alien murder 94 5 6 cunning people plot cherish 83 3 hate wrong destroy tell lies deceitful men lord 5 5 6 unrepentant enemies god psalmist declares surely god bring everlasting ruin 52 5 surely god crush heads enemies go sins 68 21 purpose prayers justice declared known ends earth god rules 59 13 proclaim powers god 68 34 kings bow nations serve 72 11 knows power anger \? wrath great fear due 90 11 yet despite fact 90 150 psalms include \( prayers invoking god 's righteous judgement upon wicked \) prayers rare average western church however , amongst persecuted churches prayers much common praying amidst burnt churches devastation marxist angola found survivors communist persecution including crippled maimed , orphans praying god strike wicked remove church shocked yet biblical \( even martyrs heaven pray long , sovereign lord , holy true , judge inhabitants earth avenge blood \? revelation 6 10 \) communist persecution angola neto described drunken , psychotic , marxist poet , neto installed troops first dictator angola boasted within 20 years wo n't bible church left angola christianity yet despite vicious wave church burning massacres christianity angola neto neto died mysterious circumstances operating table moscow romania learnt series remarkable incidents recorded god judging church answer prayer communist official ordered certain pastor arrested next day official died heart attack another communist party official ordered bibles district collected , turned toilet paper blasphemous project fact carried next day official medically examined , informed terminal cancer died shortly afterwards another occasion , communist official ordered baptist church demolished bulldozers died car crash next day order given dismantle place worship forest , flatly refused carry order gunpoint group gypsies also refused touch church desperation , communist police forced prisoners bayonet point dismantle structure yet officer charge pleaded local christians pray , god would judge nothing christians obeying strict orders building fact reconstructed later , used worship seized name lord jesus held high honour way word lord spread widely grew power acts 19 17 , 20 dictator ordered much persecution romania overthrown army executed christmas day , 1989 , shouts antichrist dead streets many testified answer prayers long suffering people romania another church challenged god machel , first dictator marxist mozambique machel ate human flesh witchcraft ceremonies 1960 's pledged soul satan vowed would destroy church turn mozambique first truly marxist state africa thousands churches mozambique closed confiscated , chained , burnt missionaries expelled , imprisoned first evangelism forbidden bibles burnt tens thousands christians , including many pastors elders , shipped concentration camps never seen month sudden death machel cursed god publicly challenged prove existence striking \( machel \) dead 19 october 1986 , several churches specifically praying god stop persecution mozambique , machel 's soviet aircraft crashed violent plane crashed 200 within south africa 's boundary mozambique amidst wreckage marxist plans government discovered published god judged , also saved country persecution months leading first multi party elections many churches prayed tor god remove 27 year socialist dictatorship kenneth done october 1991 \( man converted christ whilst imprisoned opposing \) elected president make christian country recorded history wicked mary , queen scots , declared tears afraid john knox 's prayers army ten thousand 3 april 1993 secretary general south african communist party chris hani shot dead unprecedented international wave condolences reported one could forgiven assuming man saint martyr certainly death resurrection christ jesus dominated thoughts headlines south africa easter , assassination chris hani stunning hypocrisy situation 20 135 people murdered south africa 1992 , yet collective concern anguish reported death head sa communist party thousands victims indeed sa government , international community mass media apparently greater sorrow reported one death 50 000 south africans murdered since 2nd february 1990 , pac ! yet member revolutionary council since 1973 , deputy commander \( mk \) 's military wing 1982 , chief staff mk 1987 , chris hani approved ordered bombings assassinations many unarmed civilians jesus warned live sword die sword matt 26 52 personally confronting hani terrorist activities press conference washington dc \( publicly declared support castro , col , yasser arafat saddam hussein defended placing car bombs mines public places struggle \) told christian , n't hate , hate communism praying god would either bring repentance salvation christ , god would remove responded swearing declaring atheist several people also prayed god would either bring hani repentance remove similarly several churches america begun pray imprecatory psalms unrepentant abortionists one town 8 abortionists struck , heart attacks , strokes , car accidents cancer , within months public prayers god stop killers babies praised god righteous acts judgement quoted justice done , brings joy righteous terror proverbs 21 15 others shocked christian could express satisfaction misfortune even blatantly wicked yet apostles prayed imprecatory prayers \( acts 13 8 12 galatians 1 8 9 2 tim 4 14 15 \) lord \( matt 11 20 24 \) attitude towards imprecatory psalms \? praying psalms \? tackle thorny issues would like present short summary excellent book , war psalms prince peace lessons imprecatory psalms james e adams , \( published presbyterian reformed publishing company \) lord jesus christ apostles used psalms constantly teaching men know god new testament \( nt \) quotes old testament \( ot \) 283 times 41 ot quotes nt psalms christ alluded psalms 50 times psalms prayer book bible 1 imprecatory psalms oracles god \? christian commentators theologians reject psalms , diabolical , church , god 's pronouncements wrath wicked prayers man vengeance enemies , opposite jesus' teaching love enemies yet 2 tim 3 16 17 declares scripture god breathed useful teaching , , correcting training righteousness , man god may thoroughly equipped every good work \( see also 2 peter 3 15 16 \) fact something word god beyond comprehension grounds denying even questioning inspiration make judge good evil take place god imagine god \? wrong ideas god led many become plastic surgeons made job clean god 's word according ideas proper forgotten god alone must determine christianity suitable church essence many done question authority god 's word \( like eve 's original sin listening satan 's question yes , hath god said \? \) psalms part god 's revelation attributes , reaffirmed nt authoritative word god imprecatory psalms evangelical plastic surgeons reject unworthy church psalms christ used testify \( eg mark 12 36 matt 22 43 44 \) apostles used authoritative scripture \( eg acts 1 16 20 acts 4 25 heb 4 7 \) see also 2 samuel 23 1 2 ch said concerning imprecatory psalms , \( especially ps 109 \) truly one hard places scripture , passage soul read , yet sit judgement upon , bow ear lord would speak us therein rejection part god 's word rejection word , god 2 praying psalms \? christ quoted psalms merely prophesy actually spoke psalms words psalms occupied enormous place life lord used prayer book song book synagogue last supper cross christ quoted psalms ancient authority adapted use , words words lord 's anointed david 's son truly father , hands commit spirit ps 31 5 god , god , forsaken \? ps 22 1 ministry christ say judge day judgement , quotes psalms ! matt 7 23 tell plainly , 'i never knew away , ps 6 8 heb 10 5 apostle attributes ps 40 6 8 directly christ although nowhere gospels christ recorded said words similarly hebrews 2 12 attributes ps 22 22 directly christ despite record spoken words earth clearly apostles believed christ speaking psalms christ came establish kingdom extend mercy earth let us never forget jesus come execute judgement wicked david anointed king chosen people god prototype jesus christ acts 2 30 therefore prophet , spoke resurrection christ david witness christ office , lite , words words david spoke , future messiah spoke prayers david prayed also christ better christ prayed psalms forerunner david imprecatory psalms expressions infinite justice god , indignation wrong , compassion 3 psalms repentance \? christ also lamb god , sacrifice sins christ day crucifixion charged sin people appropriated debts made responsible lord substitution sinner took sinners place \( isaiah 53 \) god made sin sin us , might become righteousness god 2 cor 5 21 history psalms , especially imprecatory psalms , understood prayers christ st augustine , jerome , ambrose , tertullian , luther many others psalms voice christ christ praying imprecatory psalms ! psalms messianic lord jesus christ praying prayers vengeance right righteous king peace ask god destroy enemies prayers signal alarm still enemies king jesus prayers answered ! god 's word revealed upon oppose christ anyone rejects god 's way forgiveness cross christ bear dreadful curses god prays psalm 69 23 28 one day make prayer reality declares left depart cursed eternal fire prepared devil angels matt 25 41 enemies lord need hear psalms god 's kingdom war powers evil tall god alone reign forever ! justice judges makes war mouth comes sharp sword strike nations rule iron sceptre fury wrath god almighty king kings lord lords rev 19 15 4 jesus' prayers contradictory \? jesus' command love enemies bless curse us \( matt 5 44 \) \? christ course loving merciful saviour sin also awesome judge coming judgement disobey gospel god pay back trouble trouble give relief troubled happen lord jesus revealed heaven blazing fire powerful angels punish obey gospel lord jesus punished everlasting destruction shut presence lord majesty power day comes glorified holy people among au believed 2 thess 1 6 10 jesus power earth forgive sins , power earth execute judgement upon enemies psalms see vengeance love ot god even n gospels see woe , hypocrites blind guides blind fools full greed self indulgence whitewashed snakes ! ! escape condemned hell \? matt 23 matt 26 23 24 christ quotes ps 69 109 refer betrayal judas also need acknowledge christ 's prayers blessing john 17 6 9 clear christ praying elect god obeyed word accepted god 's word believed \( see luke 10 8 16 reject message god 's kingdom judged \) 5 may pray imprecatory psalms \? martin luther pointed one prays hallowed thy name , thy kingdom come , thy done must put opposition one pile say , disgrace upon every name every kingdom may ruined torn apart may schemes wisdom plans run pray tor extension god 's kingdom solicit destruction kingdoms , eg dan 2 44 god heaven set kingdom never destroyed crush kingdoms bring end , endure forever advance victory church means defeat retreat kingdom darkness life death struggle two kingdoms church cannot exclude hatred tor satan 's kingdom love god 's kingdom god 's kingdom cannot come without satan 's kingdom destroyed god 's cannot done earth without destruction evil glory god demands destruction evil instead influenced insists upon assumed , really non existent , rights man focus instead upon rights god note psalm 83 psalmist prays plot together god people cover faces shame men seek name lord , sisera river , perished endor became like refuse ground story sisera book judges \( chapter 4 5 \) provides vivid example god 's judgement wicked sisera cruelly oppressed israelites twenty years cried lord help judges 4 3 response prayers lord routed sisera army sword , sisera abandoned chariot fled foot troops sisera fell sword man left judges 4 15 16 account goes describe sisera escaped tent false sense safety drove tent peg temple hammer song victory deborah barak celebrated crushing head sisera graphic detail \( judges 5 25 27 \) psalm 83 god enemies sisera 6 blessings obedience curse disobedience imprecatory psalms fully consistent law god carefully follow words law , written book , revere glorious awesome name lord god lord send fearful plagues descendants bring upon diseases egypt dreaded , cling lord also bring every kind sickness disaster recorded book law destroyed obey lord god please ruin destroy land entering possess deuteronomy 28 58 63 covenant god made people included curses disobedience well blessings obedience deuteronomy 27 records formal giving receiving covenant terms awesome account shall people israel loud voice cursed man image casts idol thing lord , work craftsman 's hands sets secret people shall say , amen ! cursed man father mother cursed man moves neighbour 's boundary stone cursed man leads blind astray roads cursed man justice alien , widow cursed man kills neighbour secretly cursed man accepts bribe kill innocent person cursed man uphold words law carrying people shall say , amen ! deut 27 14 26 new testament confirms inevitable consequence rejecting christ curse anyone love lord curse 1 corinthians 16 22 \( see also romans 12 19 21 hebrews 1 1 3 3 7 12 3 1519 10 26 31 12 14 29 \) 7 preach prayers \? church jesus christ army orders scripture constitutes official dispatch commander chief problem called pass orders others refusing expect united , effective army \? wonder troops lost sight commission demolish kingdom darkness \? church hear battle cries captain , follow onto battlefield \? pastors commissioned pass orders church 's commander , never withholding changing words one whose job carry troops wartime would face certain severe punishment dared amend general 's orders pastor 's charge greater importance courier earthly army 's place tor decide n't agree commander 's strategy jesus christ sent seventy two disciples preaching mission , told proclaim coming god 's kingdom \( lk 10 9 \) , announce people must submit god 's rule lives jesus instructed pray peace house approach , assuring anyone rejected , peace would return disciples \( verse 5 \) must consider said message rejected , persisted rebellion god 's rule enter town welcomed , go say , dust town sticks feet wipe yet sure kingdom god near ' luke 10 11 would result denunciation \? tell , day sodom god sent fire heaven judgement wickedness town \( verse 12 \) immediately jesus added curses , , tor rejection message \( verses 13 15 \) explained disciples great authority given listens listens rejects rejects rejects rejects sent \( verse 16 \) fundamental basis tor calling god 's curses anyone persistent rebellion god 's authority expressed law ministry servants need clearly forcefully proclaim war cries prince peace church awake lethargy enter battle tail pass battle cry lack urgency confusion ranks inevitable like psalm 1 preaching needs clearly show blessings obedience curse disobedience eternal truth god cannot mocked whatever man shall reap \( galatians 6 7 \) curses pronounced disobedience deut 28 47 53 fulfilled detail samaria \( 2 kings 6 2 29 \) judea \( ad 70 \) wrath god upon covenant breakers real psalms jesus christ psalms includes us lord jesus enemies , individually , lord church psalms ot christ prophet , priest , king record christ 's march victory kingdom darkness christ author psalms , , , final covenant based god answer psalmist 's prayers completely jesus christ final day judgment earth jesus day say enemies mine want king bring kill front luke 19 27 fatal end everyone refuses acknowledge obey jesus king lord hearing war psalms prince peace remind people god 's kingdom war ! kingdom darkness overcome kingdom jesus christ , war local congregation believers plays vital part must rally battalion put whole armour god , including sword spirit , word god eph 6 17 battle readiness also involves pray \( ing \) spirit occasions kinds prayers requests n eph 6 18 christ teaches army pray utter destruction enemies god psalmist pour wrath nations acknowledge , kingdoms call name ps 79 6 deal real hurts injustices world necessary us pray god 's justice persecuted need comfort prayers let saints rejoice honour sing joy may praise god mouths double edged sword hands , inflict vengeance nations punishment peoples , bind kings , nobles iron , carry sentences written glory saints praise lord ps 149 5 9 prayer , fact , spiritual warfare one weapon prayer conversion spiritual enemies another prayer judgement finally refuse converted army god refuse use great weapons given us times part task people nf god destroy evil guilty sword , neglecting undermining psalms , repent sin , sword anew , go forth battle name glory jesus knowledge lord cover earth waters cover sea hab 2 14 full book war psalms prince peace available , , frontline fellowship , po box 74 , rsa permission reproduce wishing reproduce quote edition ff news encouraged request due acknowledgement source mentioned copy sent us
daniels math ufl edu \( tv 's big dealer \) subject deuterocanonicals , esp sirach organization university florida 's college liberal arts sciences lines 35 call today old testament written approx 168 bce , according modern scholars aside book daniel , whole ot predates alexander \( great \) books written \( predominantly \) hebrew also books written time later greek speaking , hellenistic , jews books reckoned many denominations apocrypha closing writings , third part today called canon , books use jews day however , reckoned \( based zech 13 \) prophecy ceased faction maintained true prophets day also maintained literature prophetic character could genuine teachings god time c 65 ce , another faction entered mess christians come claiming writings also suitable read synagogues used worship therefore , palestinian jewish leaders got together stated books written time ben sira \( sirach \) onward sacred writings justified zech 13 particular , said , writings christians \( called heretics \) inspired 90 ce , codified things closing canon somewhat official sense council jamnia books \( , song songs , esther \) made date , written prior official cut point \( time ben sira \) inclusion established order keep christian hellenistic writings jerome excluded use jews day \( except sirach \) found hebrew time criterion separating pre christian writings based plenty say , time passage quote concerns book \( rev \) found frank
rick granberry pts mot com \( rick granberry \) subject boston c c reply rick granberry pts mot com \( rick granberry \) organization motorola paging systems group lines 263 note following article submitted behalf someone \( frank daniels \) difficulty posting r c , email replies daniels math ufl edu unable post bitnet groups capsule history movement churches christ \( e crossroads boston \) could trace movement back far 1800 , indeed roots go back far , really influences movement , actual movement , per se start c 1920 day , churches churches nearly every area \( due segregation \) modern developing predominantly phenomenon , great fanaticism , emphasis emotional experiences , belief personal guidance holy spirit many protestant churches growing became known conservative fundamentalism 1940s , evangelical movement full swing , many groups becoming part civil rights movement grew stronger \( 1950 's 1960 's \) , many church groups began influenced churches going spread started liberal groups spread conservative ones late '60 's 1969 , even catholic church displaying evidence influence groups still evident today churches christ \( \) conservative protestant group influence outside began reach cofc c 1965 , generally appreciated conservative groups strongly resistant change , new movement different cofc status quo magazines put time cofc folks tell story unfolds new ideas came cofc big push reach college students , young adults , teens called campus ism movement emotions , generally highly regarded cofc large , played important role new movement places , people began speak tongues \( pentecostal predecessors \) met extreme criticism within churches christ places , people fired jobs speaking tongues advocating holy spirit movement , another name new branch term underground church christ also came use people hide differences \( might \) several congregations , however , whose receptive new ideas \( least part tongues speaking never really caught \) one 14th street church christ gainesville , fl campus ministry already regarded important 14th street , new ideas seemed helpful tools evangelism also seemed put vitality church , many felt lacking october 1967 , 14th street congregation hired chuck lucas campus minister 1970 , would move congregation 's \( lead \) minister late 60 's early 70 's , congregation worked many groups held bible discussions daytona beach spring break organized talks university florida campus also worked uf sports people 1972 , congregation ordered larger building constructed finished , group moved changed name \( longer appropriate \) became crossroads church christ , name would become legendary time , crossroads basically cofc whose programs fully aligned new movement n't start , continued responsible wound going 1975 , none churches christ area felt could cooperate crossroads , due recognized doctrinal problems crossroads crossroads begun heavily emphasize , later require attendance church functions seen good thing member least one close relationship , person would share problems , pray , get help concept called prayer partners , later became partners also later became mandatory leadership assigning prayer partners people book called master plan evangelism strong influence chuck lucas \( group \) believed every person 's duty life purpose carry great commission crossroads growing number , numbers became important \( would say important \) person evangelistic spiritual evangelism meant inviting people crossroads events lot converted , spiritual sermons bought groceries , bag boy ought receive invitations services everyone job ought receive invitations since people needed jesus , aggressive n't take 'no' answer evangelize enough , came called lazy end decade , prayer partner system integrated structure elders ministers top \( like big pyramid \) group leaders , bible study leaders , members everyone came someone placed time , 1978 1980 , bad press crossroads began circulate problem rape university florida campus tremendous , crossroads considered bigger immediate problem many complaints congregation evangelistic tactics crossroads considering churches christ dead churches , aggravated aggressively recruiting church groups \( denominations \) , aggravated time , crossroads grown numerically point \( 1100 \) believe would soon need new building , also sending planting create new church existing church teams cities time , crossroads movement underway group sent 30 member lexington church christ boston , team headed kip mckean , converted fraternity crossroads \( gainesville \) kip held still stronger view church authority , believed heavily vested evangelist \( \) , much elders fired 1977 congregation working elders found numerous things wrong theology , including practice came called one one christianity called critics first year , half 30 people felt want part new congregation left others began coming new boston church christ ah , i'm ahead crossroads , heavy handed system begun take toll members many said felt working hard , achieving results important numbers dropping 1978 , crossroads membership declined steadily leadership began tighten reigns congregation , seen largely unproductive fruit passages nt interpreted referring new converts bearing fruit , said john 15 , would cast fire ! boston still teaches love neighbor , 'll save soul \( invite church convert \) 're , n't love neighbor n't love , 're danger logical arguments continue vein 1985 , chuck lucas fired job minister , due recurring sins life struggles never revealed congregation large , although many people outside congregation heard , little contact \( friendship level \) crossroads members outside contact , focus converting bring bible study chuck 's replacement joe woods , fully supportive boston system boston grew number , began offer sessions ministers joe went boston trained returned cross roads ready emphasize total commitment church boston kip mckean emphasizing eventually , fall 1987 , elders crossroads \( 2 number dick whitehead bill \) made decision boston demanding churches movement come direction church boston elders refused , citing belief church autonomous \( something true non boston churches christ \) perhaps also degree offense done , since crossroads longer rest movement group numbered 800 , boston larger \( membership \) churches christ generally teach baptism necessary element salvation crossroads , taught called baptism understand commitment involved could baptized boston , took step time became unproductive , spirituality suspect people would begin ask really understood getting anyone said 'no' baptism deemed invalid n't counted cost properly still baptized others called , crossroads n't approve practice crossroads announced would follow boston , many members left crossroads went movement related ministries , called ministries either \( \) dead also used nickname movement god summer 1988 , crossroads withdrawn movement stood alone allies mainstream churches christ , none movement boston , however , continued chart course direction following sent reconstruction teams many cities , usually meant split church stopped acknowledging churches christ christians began call remnant remnant jews ot saved god felt remnant today represents christians sometimes would simply call movement church usually took name city name , implying churches christ boston recognize existence many formally forbidden boston ministries recruiting due number complaints cases , documented boston ministries lied university officials order continue access campus resistance experience termed , true christians expected experience really christian 're persecuted \? numbers boston peaked c 3000 1989 since , fought remain steady heard tape kip mckean shouting leaders failing fulfill great commission \( life 's purpose \) god commanded christianity highly centered commands obedience crossroads called cult boston recognized cult awareness network national international groups cult , formal definition , techniques employ term cult usually sect practice techniques techniques employ recognized many techniques destructive , also used groups robert jay , margaret singer , many others written topic techniques include guilt motivation , emotional manipulation , loaded language , aura sacred science \( sort element seen everyday events \) , others particular axe grind movement friends still part movement never out' anyone movement disagree many things teach recognize psychological damage done involved system hold loyalty mainstream churches christ defend mistakes either want point , though , unlike many systems ways similar , leadership boston movement much victims system members leader enjoys manipulating people leaders believe teach , feel accountable \( spiritual welfare \) members members evangelize expectations , example , leaders feel personally responsible well leaders money power want evangelize world lifetime said much , much say many examples could give quotes sources \( including boston bulletins \) could include long already may post desire frank answer fool according folly , lest thou also like unto answer fool according folly , lest wise conceit \( proverbs 26 4 5 \) believe , questions boston church christ among commonly asked order avoid r c dealing continuous basis , allow discussion periodically 've got 150k faq file \( sides , way \) gives enough addition information history seems worth posting adding faq clh
mussack austin ibm com \( christopher mussack \) subject hell lines 48 \( larry l overacker \) writes q knew beyond doubt hell exist unbelievers simply remained dead , would remain christian \? contention answer question would remain christian really one follow christ 's great way live life could care less really happens die believe resurrection , wo n't effect live life ouch , good question , existing worse existing matter , modify question would christian made eternal difference reward punishment \? hope spirit want personally goal oriented hard things achieve goal however , relate sports , learned care score become good basketball player learn go matter situation perhaps lesson relevent , give life keep , humble achieve glory concentrate living life best afforded life eternal think illuminated true meaning saved faith answer \? right would remain christian however , always answer \? 's problem heaven hell good certain stages maturity admit certain times perhaps bite tongue put something hope better day , e mentally trade present happiness future happiness hope skeptics read appropriate , trying honest \( scott mayo \) writes course pointless question , cannot know beyond doubt hell exist , anymore know , short taking jesus 's word questions fun entertaining , probably fruitless think kinds questions extremely guess depends one views knowledge learning stripping ideas simple , straightforward , opposing concepts determine levels importance analyzing theoretically absurd gain better understanding actually absurd chris mussack
fil sapienza med umich edu \( fil sapienza \) subject people become atheists \? apology organization university michigan hospitals lines 15 article may 11 02 37 42 1993 athos rutgers edu maxwell c muir , muirm argon gas organpipe uug arizona edu writes instead , i'm still faced implication atheism kind aberration broken people atheist , original poster article , apologize implied atheism intent apologize hurt feelings process sapienza department technology services university michigan hospitals surgery fil sapienza med umich edu
aaronc athena mit edu \( aaron bryce cardenas \) subject mormon beliefs children born wedlock organization massachusetts institute technology lines 32 bruce webster writes indeed , lds doctrine goes one step cases holds parents responsible children 's sins failed bring properly \( cf c 68 25 28 note passage applies members lds church \) hi bruce reconcile practice ezekiel 18 \? ezekiel 18 20 soul sins one die son share guilt father , father share guilt son righteousness righteous man credited , wickedness wicked charged ezekiel 18 translated correctly eyes perhaps \? sincerely , aaron cardenas p bothered see offensive words posted newsgroup obscenity place anyone wants live bible \( eph 5 4 \) moderator would appreciate letting posts foul language , happened least twice lately thank try avoid foul language bastard certainly foul language shouted someone insult case used original technical sense similarly , hell obscenity contexts , referring afterlife clear bastard foul language 's used proper meaning one today 's postings quotes deut 23 2 prohibit \? clh
jek cu nih gov subject atheists hell lines 21 sunday 9 may 1993 , kenneth engel writes \( substance \) told penalty sin eternity hell told jesus paid penalty , suffering jesus spend eternity hell objection presupposes forensic substitution theory atonement everyone believes atonement understands terms expansion statement , send messages get ruff get ruff get ruff get ruff listserv asuacad bitnet listserv asuvm inre asu edu note character gen zero want read beginning , start , james kiefer
easteee wkuvx1 bitnet subject prays speaks tongues \? organization western kentucky university , bowling green , ky lines 8 pray tongues , appropriate pray speak tongues \? would like gain knowledge subject western kentucky \) \) \) university \( \( \( \( easteee wkuvx1 bitnet
whitsebd nextwork rose hulman edu \( bryan whitsell \) subject homosexuality issues christianity reply whitsebd nextwork rose hulman edu organization news service rose hulman lines 18 article may 11 02 39 05 1993 28328 athos rutgers edu carlson ab24 larc nasa gov \( ann carlson \) writes article may 7 01 08 16 1993 14381 athos rutgers edu , anyone thinks gay christianity compatible check dignity , integrity , light presbyterian churches , affirmation , mcc churches , etc meet gay christians , find , pray , discuss scripture , form opinion would love time energy problem totally fair would go throught type search every issue belive n't time , resources , ability ask maybe pray god gives opportunity instead simply discrediting able talk every gay christian christ 's love , bryan
tedr athena cs uga edu \( ted kalivoda \) subject incarnation two minds christ organization university georgia , athens lines 48 nabil wrote 5 families agree wills acts always one hypostasis logos incarnate nabil , posit two minds christ , mind logos mind human jesus , must admit two wills mind mind without know dealt past church , philosophical problem examined v morris argued incarnation seen like \( mind logos \) \( \) \( \( \) \) , mind jesus god \( \( human \) \) son god son complete access human \( \( mind \) \) mind human mind access mind \( \( \) \) god son son allows access \( \( \) \) explains jesus said even know \( \) time kingdom human acted accordance divine according free human decision human would decided differently intended divine would , never case employs interesting analogies support one person two mind theory ideas completely healthy version split personality field psychology , intriguing ideas dream , seeing acting , knowing , also omniscient one hypostasis would unity two minds agreed still waiting morris others respond problem two minds making two persons christian analytic philosophers breaking new ground rationality theism incarnation ted kalivoda \( tedr athena cs uga edu \) university georgia , athens institute higher ed note person used sense english connect person personality things human attributes i'm entirely sure whether 'd want apply personality god , appropriate , think 'd say christ two personalities clh
noye midway uchicago edu \( vera shanti noyes \) subject homosexuality issues christianity reply noye midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 56 article may 11 02 39 05 1993 28328 athos rutgers edu carlson ab24 larc nasa gov \( ann carlson \) writes bible verses ag used ag homosexuality deleted anyone thinks gay christianity compatible check dignity , integrity , light presbyterian churches , affirmation , mcc churches , etc meet gay christians , find , pray , discuss scripture , form opinion also check episcopal church although means episcopalians sympathetic homosexual men women , certainly fairly large percentage \( experience \) good friends episcopalian minister ordained living monogamous homosexual relationship way diminishes ability minister fact significant ministry gay lesbian association community , well significant aids ministry uncle gay found good long think bible say feel god thinks obviously conclusions may wrong nonetheless feel right believe one important thing wrote old new testament passages cited know scientific evidence support homosexuality least partly inherent rather completely learned means certain extent great extent homosexuals cannot choose feel people reports curing homosexuals always chill make feel ill please , although ca n't cite sources find information , homosexual behavior recorded among monkeys animals , suggestive inherent rather learned , least word unnatural n't really apply please remember whatever believe , gays lesbians excluded love acceptance christ loved us , sin never said anything homosexuals rather paul \( also came wonderful wisdom women n't speak church women keep heads covered church exact quotations n't bible handy \) says things tendency take things paul says grain salt well , 's 'll say dr ann b carlson \( b carlson larc nasa gov \) ms 366 nasa langley research center ` \) hampton , va 23681 0001 vera noyes lord risen indeed let 's party ! noye midway , uchicago edu \( vera noyes \)
eugene bigelow ebay sun com \( geno \) subject doctrine original sin reply eugene bigelow ebay sun com organization sun microsystems , inc lines 15 article may 9 05 40 15 1993 athos rutgers edu , eugene bigelow ebay sun com \( geno \) writes 4 \) nothing unclean shall enter heaven \( rev 21 27 \) therefore , babies born state die , god put hell , exactly doctrine st augustine st thomas jeff adams regarding first paragraph , would say n't write n't believe babies put hell n't even believe hell least , n't believe fiery place teeth geno
noye midway uchicago edu \( vera shanti noyes \) subject people become atheists \? reply noye midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 88 article may 11 02 37 42 1993 athos rutgers edu muirm argon gas organpipe uug arizona edu \( maxwell c muir \) writes lot stuff deleted i'm focusing one point well , got strong atheist , feel lack evidence , especially something like omnipotent , implies lack existence however , n't met strong atheist yet said nothing could ever persuade call seeker like , n't weak atheism ignore , though atheists simply say n't believe god rather position believe god \( \) exist weak atheist , atheism disbelieve , n't actively believe atheism \( think confusing , try figuring difference protestants methodists atheist point view \) i'm little confused difference weak atheism , put , agnosticism agnosticism believing necessarily anything , \? used agnostic \( definition \) weak atheism includes necessarily believing god , guess one \? \? \? actually hard time understanding people ever decide believe constantly state self examination , would appear many others well \( including atheists , course 'd assume 's 're ! \) guess people n't really consider important think answers life , universe everything comment \? wondering another fallacy many theists seem , everyone believes something \( followed everyone faith something \) guess \? atheism ends moment i'm shown proof god 's existence really much ask \? tough call , things seem based faith wish could help , already tried someone self professed agnostic thinking becoming christian , n't work well ! especially tough i'm still whether believe miracles \( looks like another email coming \) wish best luck , please post find told find faith intellectually dishonest note speak find faith honest , show hmm , \? guess really n't understand times , course , say course absolutely way knowing believe true except satisfaction sense peace get course could psychological somehow live anyway mean \? proof believe god spoke could course imagination odd thing , though , n't point start believing something , gets sort ridiculous maybe 's question draw line unable reconcile far maybe 's i'm broken \? tell invisible living garden take word accept , fundamentally different mind really would like know think ask proof assertion god exists logical physical proofs , please 'll discuss nature god 'll add one question read pascal \? think \? also may \( may \) interested surprised joy 'd interested knowing think , sarcasm intended \( say one never know one 's written words interpreted interested converting , since n't seem whatever would take proof i'm interested learning \) garlic toast forever , like max \( bob \) muir cheers , vera give everything disclaimer course n't agree sweet everything trent 's \( nin 's \) theology think nine inch nails 's interesting nonetheless noye midway uchicago edu \( vera noyes \)
djohnson cs ucsd edu \( darin johnson \) subject homosexuality issues christianity organization cse dept , u c san diego lines 33 attempts make homosexuals feel unwelcome discomfort homosexuality incompatible christianity hatred deep rather see someone try become closer jesus , need keep away often true many people try place higher sin however jesus need us screen guilty particular sin really mistrust jesus says forgive sin \? big part problem many homosexuals people advocating acceptance homosexuality churches consider \( active \) homosexuality sin n't often see attitude forgive try change instead see 's nothing wrong life good christian , must illness n't accept christians accept homosexuals , accept sinner sure , may natural people homosexual also perfectly natural everyone sin ! born desire sin , work prevent sinning 's much less common , still urges anger also may sudden disappearance sinful desires \( ever ! \) , sad see people leave church discouraged still homosexual several years darin johnson djohnson ucsd edu particle man , particle man , things particle
mangoe cs umd edu \( charley wingate \) subject two babylons lines 9 seeing two babylons brought , time respond , , say book junk nothing anti catholic tract sort published ever since protestants scholarship phony assertions spurious c wingate peace god , peace , strife closed sod mangoe cs umd edu yet , brothers , pray one thing tove ! mangoe marv'lous peace god
muirm argon gas organpipe uug arizona edu \( maxwell c muir \) subject people become atheists \? organization university arizona , tucson lines 88 article may 11 02 38 47 1993 athos rutgers edu fil sapienza med umich edu \( fil sapienza \) writes article may 7 01 09 44 1993 14556 athos rutgers edu maxwell c muir , muirm argon gas organpipe uug arizona edu writes faith \( want know , feel faith intellectually dishonest \) 'd appreciate support statement i'm sure really makes sense define faith belief , \( sp \? \) evidence also include evidence past experiences past experience god actually effect life never seen evidence god beyond explained without god convincing many fictional works read \( reasons \) , believe god \( \) seen , people reconcile lack evidence using faith faith sense \( way currently understand word faith \) find intellectually dishonest ambiguity religious beliefs , unwillingness take pascal 's wager , 've heard frequently exactly pascal 's wager \? pascal 's wager goes something like premise 1 either n't god premise 2 god exists , wants us believe damn us believing premise 3 god exist , belief god n't matter death death , anyway conclusion belief god superior non belief non belief us eternal punishment wrong , belief god wastes little time life wrong sound pretty straightforward logically sound problem , premise 1 presupposes 1 1 odds belief non belief flat wrong , sheer number religions fact , part , religions mutually exclusive heard theists referred 99 atheists believe god \( gods \) one god \( set gods \) consequence pick wrong god \? suddenly , odds n't look good picking wrong god wrong doctrines god still leaves possibility wrong damned another god 's version hell sound broken \? n't know point mother 's treatment upset , see inconsistencies various religions i'm sure constitutes broken ness certainly disillusionment n't see disillusionment enters see , presented mother 's treatment show cause questioning atheism , questioning continues day already atheist five years contact mother 's version christianity anything , become somewhat disillusioned atheism \( uh , oh , thought , god \? \) yes , way , also become disillusioned many religions , simply thought one time answers , found right one i'm still looking , time look different place , become little stronger attitude \( belief , , faith , though , 's based evidence past experience \) 'll never find religion answers sorta like looking easter eggs time takes find next one , convinced become may already found eggs 're going find someone else mentioned critisism n't going make think highly christians contrary position constructive critisism likely improve attitude towards christians abusive critisism turn accusations , mr sapienza merely slipped post forgot reply one sapienza department technology services university michigan hospitals surgery fil sapienza med umich edu garlic toast forever max \( bob \) muir ps i'm leaving home thursday 1 30 , likely last post summer ! meantime , thank helping see things might missed world !
noye midway uchicago edu \( vera shanti noyes \) subject people become atheists \? reply noye midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 108 article may 11 02 36 32 1993 athos rutgers edu mayne nu cs fsu edu writes article may 9 05 40 51 1993 athos rutgers edu noye midway uchicago edu writes stuff dealing deleted comparable christianity main stream western culture experiences others sorry mean think understand experiences much worse small bit ridicule put guess n't really understand remember like different christian told time different , fact members church really christians \( though others believed god n't bad atheists \) , small minority nothing compared atheist wow , pretty conservative church \( please excuse seems like ridiculous understatement \) thing comparable would young child christian surrounded staunch atheists , including parents , actively persecute religious actual punishments , even worse , emotional blackmail would also whole mainstream society side maybe conditions could occured old soviet union country god pledge allegiance \( side note , god n't recently believe father , sixties , remembers saying pledge allegiance without n't know history behind though \) emotional blackmail ouch thank goodness \( 'll neutral thanks \) \) raised completely tolerant household , could make decisions ! doubt even , children taught christians hence must support somewhere atheism n't taught , christianity guess see , although see child believing sort god without anything imagination basis \( sorry , guess sort minor \) query parallel lack choice homosexuals lack choice atheist deleted yes atheism born necessity intellectually honest person belief mostly response evidence hmm , wonder christian \? n't flame , real wonder anyone else opinions offer believe something n't necessarily proven \? wishes nothing could choose lie , silent true beliefs could choose believe god christianity could decide ordinary sky looks red sounds like atheist nature , possible least part due apparently repressive nature christianity childhood \? getting personal perhaps ignore , take email still clear i'm equating went gays go however mistake assume everyone goes painful experiences broken happily made stronger , get past may general remark sound broken , indeed stronger must say n't hurt experiences church friends n't become atheists hurt differently i'm sure understand sentence could explain \? without going details violating childhood friends suffice say religion guarantee person happy strong emotionally , repressive upbringing leave scars even , especially , n't get free doubt sane sincere person doubts feel need defend yes , agree 've seen damage repressive religion , result intend raise children much look around accepting one religious stand \( atheism included \) question everything important way much happier stronger closet end , someone eloquently put private email , experience liberation rather see bill mayne cheers , vera je une ame , qui course n't agree farmer 's religious views je suis think 're interesting generation \( vera noyes \) farmer noye midway uchicago edu
swf elsegundoca ncr com \( stan friesen \) subject major views trinity reply swf elsegundoca ncr com lines 31 article may 9 05 41 12 1993 athos rutgers edu , writes seems middle ages , customary pastors explain trinity analogy water water water , exist three forms liquid , ice vapor thus possible one essence exist three forms sounds like sort generic \( three phases water different modes behavior physical stuff \) certainly seem describe orthodox position course , suppose medieval view water may different , know phases water different behaviors physical stuff different modes , different identities perhaps medieval people know recently , pastor church drew analogy , also found useful woman often percieved others three ways , depending relationship mother , wife employee business clearly modalistic , since three aspects depend solely point view , really represent actual variety within person begin see sarima teradata com \( formerly tdatirv ! sarima \) stanley friesen elsegundoca ncr com
djohnson cs ucsd edu \( darin johnson \) subject homosexuality issues christianity organization cse dept , u c san diego lines 15 ok , 's important gay christians \? sex , christianity \? christianity would hope would willing forgo sex completely , order avoid stumbling block others , avoid chance interpretation might wrong , etc \? , \? heterosexuals abstain time \( would nice protestant churches celibate orders show world sex important thing life \) tell truth , gay churches remind lot henry viii starting church england order get divorce \( myth \) note denying gay christians christian darin johnson djohnson ucsd edu toy cows africa
tai jkj sii co jp \( martin \) subject question virgin mary lines 27 article may 6 00 35 45 1993 geneva rutgers edu , marka hcx1 ssd csd harris com \( mark ashley \) wrote countries event approved pope currently , images mary japan , korea , yugoslavia , philippines , africa showing tears \( natural blood \) resources , go one countries mentioned article may 9 05 40 20 1993 athos rutgers edu , mdw33310 uxa cso uiuc edu \( michael walker \) wrote 1 far current investigations , church recently declared crying statue corresponding messages mary akita , japan approved \( found month ago \) i'm japan \( michael , could give info akita nearest city would good \) find , 'll get pictures post version enough people interested marty ! lost space ! \( japan \? \) tai jkj sii co jp
mls panix com \( michael siemon \) subject homosexual issues christianity organization panix public access internet unix , nyc lines 164 article may 11 02 36 34 1993 athos rutgers edu mserv mozart cc iup edu \( someone named mark \) writes mls panix com \( michael siemon \) writes homosexual christians indeed checked verses used us incredibly perverse interpretations others simply address issues see verses clearly address issues , exactly zero verses clearly address issues however , couple seem though require incredibly perverse interpretations order seen condemning homosexuality kind interpretation see incredibly perverse applied story sodom blanket equation homosexual behavior rape since christians citing bible context presumed least read story , amounts slander charge homosexuality rape use us deceived neither fornicators , idolators , adulterers , effeminate , homosexuals , thieves , covetous , drunkards , revilers , swindlers , shall inherit kingdom god cor 6 9 11 moderator adequately discusses circularity use porneia think agree \( paul \) kinds activity could named fornication theft would well deserve condemnation may may agree bounds categories , however fact argued suggests matter clear paul excellent interest making clear , leaving matters rather spirit led decisions , uncomfortable living readings dominated christian discussion areas homosexual behavior different \( gay christians know \) adamant condemning rape heterosexual homosexual child molestation heterosexual homosexual even possibly harmless obsessive kinds sex heterosexual homosexual would stand condemned paul continuation chapter cite may mildly suggest paul letter want use perhaps good guide meaning \? 'i free anything , ' say yes , everything good doubt free anything , one let anything make free 1 cor 6 12 must god god commandment neither gay christian wishes break people indeed involved obsessively driven modes sexual behavior wrong \( though slightly less incendiary , 's secondary argument contingent \) equate homosexuality behavior equate rape god 's messengers wo n't deal exegesis leviticus , except tangentially fundamentally , exhibiting circularity assumption know porneia means plenty laws prohibiting sexual behavior found leviticus , christians ignore completely never even bother examine assume know ones moral ones ritual well , news anthropology course ritual clean vs categories awful lot societies \( , buried pretty deep \) cannot see ground distinguishing bits leviticus ritual law christian know feels applies us i'm dead serious people start going \( matter \) repulsive unnatural acts know , huh \? solid clue sort arbitrary cultural american prejudice eating insects basis , assuming conclusion , say law male male intercourse leviticus part ritual law \? christians think parts leviticus law christians \( others even thought \) incumbent every case , handled merits determine pick one ignore another frankly think whole effort misguided reread paul doubt free anything christians criterion use making judgments , great commandment love god neighbor cannot go leviticus decide command basis , arbitrary selection simply context , remarkably offensive say notice verse forbidding bestiality immediately follows verse prohibiting appears homosexual intercourse well , la ti da \? almost slimey argument one homosexuality rape know one argues seriously \( though one always find jokers \) defense bestiality absolutely irrelevant incomparable issues gay christians raise \( concern sexual activity within committed , consensual human adult \) , bringing relevant laws cannot address actual issues , bloody dishonest trailing red herring front world want address bestiality , business , mine attempting torpedo serious issue using culture ridiculous joke shows interest hearing us human beings want dismiss us , use means think jesus paul expound , considerable length , central pin christian moral thought required love one another , else depends gay lesbian christ challenge address issue terms get return cheap debate tricks attempting side track issues christians , doubt sincere ones , keep showing every corner usenet world , ever spout old verses \( obviously never thought , maybe never even read \) , total ignorance issues raised , slandering us vilest charges child abuse whatever minds manage conjure , tossing red herrings \( suppose \) great emotional force cause readers dismiss witness without even taking trouble find behavior shame anyone claims seen truth christ , god 's precious sake , people quote irrelevant verses condemn people n't know wo n't even take trouble listen start condemnations \? loving neighbor \? god forbid ! obey repeated commands judge condemn others \? christ paul spend orders magnitude time insisting half dozen obscure words paul bloody ready take license god tells , god 's sake \? god send son world condemn world , world might saved whoever believes condemned , whoever believe already condemned refusing believe name god 's son judgment light come world , men preferred darkness light deeds evil everyone practices wickedness hates light , come near light fear deeds exposed acts truth comes light , may deeds done god john 3 17 21 long ages , \( many us \) confused evil counsel evil men told came light would rejected us took courses probably show sinful god 's light blessed whose spirits crushed self righteous shall justified however , seen truth , truth light humanity know fear light , enemies fear light witness everything shadow darkness false witness us michael l siemon say gods , sons mls panix com high , nevertheless shall die like men , fall mls ulysses att com like prince psalm 82 6 7
kilroy gboro rowan edu \( dr nancy 's sweetie \) subject anyone remember organization rowan college new jersey lines 30 years ago possibly many five discussion numerology \( 's assign numeric values letters add letters words , effort prove something another never make sense 's supposed work 's supposed prove \) somebody posted long article numerology bible , saying things like proves intricate planning scriptures , else patterns would appear brilliant followup , numerology numerology posts stuff like word adds 28 , word appears 28 times posting ! elegant planning ! , word also adds 28 writer using clues show us reach truth via numerology ! \( examples made examples \) really liked reply , excellent job showing patterns found anything however , save copy remember author i'm 90 sure posted newsgroup , chance somebody remembers saved , author reading , wanted know anyone could send copy \( think made faq , find \) darren f provine kilroy gboro rowan edu use brains , borrow well wilson
bruce liv ac uk \( bruce stephens \) subject people become atheists \? organization centre mathematical software research , univ liverpool lines 31 11 may 93 06 38 48 gmt , fil sapienza med umich edu \( fil sapienza \) said article may 7 01 09 44 1993 14556 athos rutgers edu maxwell c muir , muirm argon gas organpipe uug arizona edu writes ambiguity religious beliefs , unwillingness take pascal 's wager , 've heard frequently exactly pascal 's wager \? either god exists , b n't two choices , either 1 believe god , 2 n't believe god true , 2 brings eternal damnation , whereas 1 brings eternal life b true , 1 minor inconvenience compared 2 thus , rational believe god numerous flaws , covered faq alt atheism , amongst places sound broken \? n't know point mother 's treatment upset , see inconsistencies various religions i'm sure constitutes broken ness certainly disillusionment disillusionment strikes excellent reason stopping believing something bruce , university liverpool religion myth information
carlson ab24 larc nasa gov \( ann carlson \) subject faq essay homosexuality organization nasa langley research center , hampton , va usa lines 20 articles available church gay people , pro gay viewpoint , might interest people participating thread please email would like send \( warning , 70k worth material make sure mailbox disk space available \) short answers questions 've seeing \( explain verses \? , justify actions \? \) 've asking really want idea people 's thinking , encourage serious reading dr ann b carlson \( b carlson larc nasa gov \) ms 366 nasa langley research center ` \) hampton , va 23681 0001
alisonjw spider co uk \( alison j wyld \) subject translations organization spider systems limited , edinburgh , uk lines 22 article may 10 05 07 52 1993 athos rutgers edu mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) writes strong preference editions indent beginning verse verses paragraphs verse numbering relatively modern addition given undue prominence anyone know english language edition show verse \( even chapter \) numbers always thought edition would useful although hard navigate around scots nt n't show verse numbers , great read , particularly longer narrative passages , scots n't quite proper study edition tend use get feel story , particularly gospels , use english edition look details alison original neb put verse numbers margin jerusalem bible , though put dot mark boundaries verses clh
jenk microsoft com \( jen kilmer \) subject homosexuality issues christianity organization microsoft corporation lines 27 article may 11 02 36 59 1993 athos rutgers edu dps nasa kodak com writes article 15441 geneva rutgers edu , loisc microsoft com \( lois christiansen \) writes , especially homosexuality let 's reach homosexuals christ let 's try change , need bring christ n't want gay , change n't hate people n't n't hate kids wrong either tell right , lie n't admit wrong , n't make effort improve repent , get punished think quite appropriate note difference one saying , christ disagrees christian gay , christ change saying , think gay wrong , christian cannot gay , need tell change lois said , paul wrote believers rome , judge servant \? jen include stdisclaimer jenk microsoft com msdos testing
alisonjw spider co uk \( alison j wyld \) subject dreams body incidents organization spider systems limited , edinburgh , uk lines 40 article may 11 02 37 40 1993 athos rutgers edu dt4 cs hub ucsb edu \( david e goggin \) writes 'd like get comments question mind lot morals ethics apply dreams body incidents \? normal dreams , ca n't control anything , obviously n't morally responsible actions contrive control action dreams oobe , seems like morality applies well one \( apparently \) odd people sometimes control dreams example , might decide going sleep want repeat favourite dream , dream specific place unpleasant dream , often \( always \) redirect events something pleasant guess think standards apply directed dreams apply waking fantasies real life \( ref jesus teaching looking woman committing \) normal dreams display themes would chose dream , take sign well inner life maybe underlying fears need resolved , maybe straightforward sin either case , cause needs resolved fact , either case pretty rare n't often remember dreams n't chose , almost always tell something important also almost never dream pictures , especially colour \( fact 've precisely one full colour picture dream remember , definately spiritually important \) tend dream sound , odd blurred image , black white interesting topic 'll fascinated read responses alison ps make clear , n't \( never tried \) oobes tend think limits christians
rexlex fnal fnal gov subject arsenokoitai nt meaning organization fnal ad net lines 84 week , many asked earlier postings ot , nt exegesis homosexual issue refered faq files , find , longer contains long mail , article , try get back faq file renewed interest subject , type , permission , article james deyoung think one best articles 've read conservative position ca n't post , come piece meal daily i'm done entire article , make available faq file talk clh also , ca n't get , may try one rexlex fnal fnal gov fnal gov loren senders fnal gov source nt meaning arsenokoitai , implications christian ethics ministry james b deyoung professor new testament western conservative baptist seminary portland , oregon traditional interpretation arsenokoitai \( homosexuals \) 1 cor 6 9 1 tim 1 10 refers sexual vice people sex , specifically restrict term 's meaning active male , stronger evidence supports general translation , namely homosexuals recently definition homosexual opposed linguistic grounds , claim term homosexuals anachronistic addition , criticism traditional rendering says term today includes celibate , excludes heterosexuals engage homosexual acts , includes female homosexuals concern acts instead modern attention desires factor ancient world foregoing translation arsenokoitai homosexuals number weaknesses finally , study argues paul coined term arsenokoitai , deriving lxx lev 20 12 \( cf 18 22 \) using homosexual orientation behavior , latter occasion church discipline \( cor 5 6 \) legislation society \( 1 tim 1 8 11 \) introduction rise gay rights movement recent years increasing focus biblical statements regarding homosexuality sodomy part focus , meaning term arsenokoitai , used twice apostle paul \( 1 cor 6 9 , tim 1 10 \) , received vigorous scrutiny issue particularly crucial contemporary society since much modern ethics shaped biblical statements particularly , concern gay rights place gays homosexuals church society require resolution biblical interpretation study historical , linguistic , literary matters survey recent proposals meaning arsenokoitai present evidence point resolution several writers positions represent modern debate word three authors , bailey , boswell , scroggs , provoked considerable discussion significantly encouraged wider acceptance homosexual lifestyle society , church , ministry footnotes 1 convenience sake , term homosexual used encompass sex orientation sex behavior meaning term one main considerations study 2 times century ago p \( pastoral epistles , \) 891 \) could write arsenokoitai term fortunately language proper equivalent unknowingly thereby touched upon basis contemporary debate study present writer endorses pauline authorship pastoral epistles basis internal external evidence \( see donald guthrie , new testament introduction , 4th ed 1990 621 649 , extensive discussion citation supporters pauline authorship \) 3 example , see influence olson , web , side \( april 1984 \) 24 29 study suggesting prohibition homosexuality ot , see phillips , father 's , vt 30 1 \( jan , 1980 \) 38 43 bibliography sources dealing arsenokoitai , see religion indexes \( ny h co , 1987 \)
david bernard central sun com \( dave bernard \) subject sj mercury 's reference fundamentalist christian parents reply david bernard central sun com organization sun microsystems lines 15 article athos rutgers edu , dan ingres com \( rose arose \) writes raised oakland san lorenzo strict fundamentalist christian parents , mason beaten child san jose mercury news come article starting raised oakland mexican parents , mason beaten , face would red anger injustice done mexican family members although i'm neither fundamentalist evangelical , often noticed trend media short , permissable bash fundamentalists need nationality mexican try simply substitute different religion raised muslim parents , raised jewish parents paper simply would
pages ! bwebster uunet uu net \( bruce f webster \) subject mormon temples reply pages ! bwebster uunet uu net organization pages software inc lines 23 article may 11 02 38 41 1993 athos rutgers edu mserv mozart cc iup edu \( mail server \) writes n't necessarily object secrecy question , since see biblical reason aspect christian worship involve secrecy interested claim early christian practices parallel mormon temple ceremonies could give example \? also , parallel mormon ceremonies \? n't mormon ceremonies restore original christian practices \? n't whole point joseph smith 's stated mission \? 'd recommend reading mormonism early christianity hugh nibley , particularly articles christ 's forty day \( post resurrection \) mission , baptism dead , early christian prayer circles , temples \( 2 articles \) bruce bruce f webster religion require sacrifice cto , pages software inc things never power sufficient bwebster pages com produce faith necessary unto life import pages disclaimer h salvation joseph smith
hall vice ico tek com \( hal f lillywhite \) subject mormon temples organization tektronix inc , beaverton , lines 24 article may 11 02 38 41 1993 athos rutgers edu mserv mozart cc iup edu \( mail server \) writes interested claim early christian practices parallel mormon temple ceremonies could give example \? also , parallel mormon ceremonies \? n't mormon ceremonies restore original christian practices \? n't whole point joseph smith 's stated mission \? want parallels best source probably book temple cosmos hugh nibley light reading however early practices parallel exactly duplicate modern lds ceremony , couple reasons 1 quite likely exact original ancient times stuff commonly known bits pieces undoubtedly spread \( much bits pieces modern ceremony get known \) 40 day literature , egyptian ceremonies , certain native american ceremonies almost certainly exactly jesus taught 2 certain aspects ceremony normally modified fit situation , much modern ceremony modified fit audio visual tools available
cctr114 cantua canterbury ac nz \( bill rea \) subject portland earthquake organization university canterbury , christchurch , new zealand lines 55 paul hudson jr \( hudson athena cs uga edu \) wrote article may 7 01 09 33 1993 athos rutgers edu cctr114 cantua canterbury ac nz \( bill rea \) writes history seems imply pretty serious sin one pastors church attend , christchurch city , considers prophesy natural disaster judgement lord clear sign prophesy lord would like see reasoning behind may gotten get chance ask weekend burned natural disaster prophecies , mean every natural disaster judgement prophecy false take quick look book jeremiah obvious judgement prophecies valid us , seems like might problem positive prophecies , though sure may people judgement words underlined heart problem quick look n't justice depth book jeremiah studied jeremiah period year one stage life , say great deal underlying theological meaning judgement prophesies let make one point clash jeremiah false prophets primarily theological realm false prophets understood god based covenant lord made david possible trace within pages old testament covenant , initially conditional continued obedience david 's descendants , came viewed unconditional promise part lord keep descendant david 's upon throne never allow jerusalem foreign power jeremiah prophet , across border formerly israelite territory came prophesy , came theological background covenant lord made israel moses northern kingdom rejected covenant death solomon theology clashed theology local prophets deep understanding mosaic covenant awareness international events jeremiah spoke prophesies judgement prophesies deeply loaded theological meaning opinion , portland earthquake prophesy david wilkerson new york burn prophesy bubble compared majestic theological depths jeremiah prophesies bill rea \( \) w u w bill rea , computer services centre , e mail b rea csc canterbury ac nz university canterbury , cctr114 csc canterbury ac nz christchurch , new zealand phone \( 03 \) 642 331 fax \( 03 \) 642 999
hudson athena cs uga edu \( paul hudson jr \) subject faq essay homosexuality organization university georgia , athens lines 201 article may 11 05 06 28 1993 geneva rutgers edu hedrick geneva rutgers edu writes came 's response kinsey \( see \) source figure 10 percent article usa today months ago showing results study actually 1 homosexual saw another figure listed 2 figure course , even 99 would little bearing whether sinful behavior many people commited acts fornication \? many people lied sinned ways \? fairness , shameless nature acts reflection general spiritual state people , specific feature homosexuality n't specific feature homosexuality \? paul describes men men working describe acts sure , nature also , like sins , idolatry , sexual , sins sprang spiritual state result man 's glorifying god god thankful still , acts shameless homosexuality even considered acceptable cases hand , none passages contains explicit teachings subject rom 1 really idolatry refers homosexuality passing everything sinful specifically elaborated new testament \? scripture condemn drug dealer ruled spirit rather letter legalism , also protects us sins spirit word two edged sword cuts ways think must careful totally throw leviticus law reflection god 's character true holy nature , say god endorses homosexuality run problem homosexuality natural \( whatever means \) wholesome , endorsed god , oppose sexual behavior narrow minded , would us believe , condemnation leviticus condemnation midst sex sin condemnations , nothing text say law limited temple prostitution , good reason believe case furthermore , male homosexual sex death penalty crime ! every sin elaborated new testament \? take look corinthians 5 paul said one corinthians broken law even heard among gentiles , one father 's wife prohibition father 's wife leviticus new testament verse clearly condemns \( besides one \) notice paul say sin commiting adultery , etc spoke one 's father 's wife notice also sexual condemnation leviticus mentioned specific context paganism either pagan mentioned corinthians either matter fact taking one 's father 's wife n't even done among gentiles plain sin , whether worshipping idols involved one commonly made claim paul simply never faced kinds questions trying deal encountered homosexuality contexts people would probably agree wrong never faced experience christians try act straight fail , never faced christians trying define christian homosexuality , fits general christian ideals fidelity seeing sexuality mirror relationship god man unfair take paul 's judgement homosexuality among idolaters use make judgements questions one reasons us accept common argument paul probably face problems sin tough come , especially without supernatural power homosexual sin difficult overcome heterosexual sin , like married woman , sleeping around people opposite sex \? doubt , even , excuse god greater another reason reject ignores supernatural power god intervene kind situation many people set free sin power god \? sure may groups tried change homosexuals failed reflection people involved program , god 's willingness ability change sinner program uses formulas may fail people need power god change , whether involved homosexual sin , sin claim question counsel homosexual christians entirely theological issue , also pastoral one paul 's tendency , see issues eating meat celebrating holidays , uncompromising principle pastoral issues look carefully good people involved , avoid insisting perfection would personally damaging example , paul clearly believed acceptable eat meat , wanted us avoid pushing people action personal qualms n't see come conclusion paul 's dealings issues encouraged people give liberties order spare others allow people continue sin difficult take example eating meat offered idols paul felt nothing wrong , abstract sense , eating meat yet advised believers sacrifice liberty eat meat order spare others paul never allowed people sin living holy tough paul wrote make provision flesh fulfill lusts thereof \( romans 13 14 \) goes discourse sacrifice liberty order spare others suppose sin people practice homosexual acts since others consider sin , using paul 's approach issues , would otherwise homosexuals sacrifice liberty married member opposite sex paul never offers lesser sin \( homosexual marriage \) prevent people engaging may considered damaging sin another example , paul obviously would preferred see people \( least circumstances \) remain yet unable , certainly would rather see married state might tempted fornication yet marriage sin marriage holy something god , paul recognizes note creation story work enters human life result sin n't mean christians stop working saved actually , adam put garden tend fell fell would toil ground dangers trying cure attempt often fails , , end damage ranging psychological damage suicide , well broken marriages attempts living heterosexual fail dependent totally god glorious position must transformed renewing minds way homosexuals walk freedom , like anyone else well imagine paul preferring see people long term , committed christian relationships promiscuity work genesis suggests n't part god 's original ideal either think relationships still vehicle people sharing god 's love i'm sure see people opposing view see conclusion 's like saying , kill , gun \? person overcome desire sleep goats \? would better sleep one goat , \? person wants sleep \? would better sleep one aunt \? cases , people animals one sleeps , higher chance get disease deals physical aspects question whichever sin commited , leads spiritual death cent actions christian homosexuals say relationships different greek homosexuality paul would familiar , exactly kind argument made judicial oaths tax collectors issue often addressed scripture seems actual act second , n't historical say homosexuals century capable loving relationships \? ancient writings glorifying homosexual love \( btw , one believes making also , get tax collectors sinners 's certainly explicit jesus n't tell quit job \) link hudson i'm reluctant comment detail basic concepts intention jesus paul greatly different indicated article , whatever various words \( still think significant \) , seem clear paul considered homosexuality saw around wrong fact depends upon basic approach bible i'm afraid communication anti christians even harder protestants catholics 16th cent since disagree starting point , obviously 're going disagree intermediate discussion conclusions sometimes discussion still useful 've seen interesting work paul done jews obviously n't agree , sometimes helpful insight meant n't see much sign hope talk religion misc 's axiom time hitler 's name invoked , hope sensible discussion gone subject , sleeping goats invoked , n't think 's enough basis understanding worth pursuing clh
loisc microsoft com \( lois christiansen \) subject homosexuality issues christianity organization microsoft corp lines 20 article may 11 02 36 59 1993 athos rutgers edu dps nasa kodak com wrote article 15441 geneva rutgers edu , loisc microsoft com \( lois christiansen \) writes might visit congregations christians , happen homosexuals , spirit filled believers , go lumping us together troy perry gee , think real criminals \( robbers , , drug addicts \) appear fun loving caring people 's point \? ok people nice \? n't say visit nice homosexuals said visit congregations christians spirit filled believers praise lord members body let us agree disagree god bless see heaven loisc
db7n andrew cmu edu \( andrew byler \) subject serbian genocide work god \? organization freshman , civil engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 91 vera shanti noyes writes really \? may right , 'd like proof far know \( however , shall innocent sin , pray earnest supplication creator may keep unharmed numbers elect st clement , bishop rome , letter corinthians , 59 2 , \( c 90 ad \) also called , church ephesus asia , worthy , blessed greatness fullness god father , predestined eternity glory lasting unchanging , united chosen true suffering father jesus christ god st , bishop antioch , letter ephesians , address , \( c 110 ad \) say therefore , substance , concept , orgin , ancient catholic church alone , gathering unity one faith results familiar covenants already chosen , predestined god knew foundation world would st clement , patriarch archbishop alexandria , , 7 17 107 3 , \( c 205 ad \) course doctrine explained fully later sts augustine , aquinas , etc , seeds ther beginning really confusing , especially since still believe christ jesus died us obstinacy seems like awfully convoluted way account couple verses think reading wrong say saved saved account sins god give sufficient grace , , desire men might saved however , saved saved saved grace god , works , lest man boast others damned obstinacy refusing heed call god damned free chosing , choice god causing predestined , instead god uses grace like spreads 's needed n't \? saved saved , nothing hmmmm certainly god distribute grace evenly , one could heart hardened \( rather , harden heart , thus causing god withdraw grace \) , correct world divided god knows saved , god knows road key god knows thus , one boast complete assurance one elect predestined one christian good doubt salvation either \( shows lack trust god \) punished die 're saying get die direct bearing live \? strange must admit possible anyway , would want something hear know , recieve 100 fold heaven \? better lay treasure heaven jesus said condemn rich , simply point rich frequently evil immoral , god must give blessing know , chosen remeber , jesus promised tribulation world , hatred others christians promise heaven earth promised heaven sin either punished later \? 's sort half punished \? grey areas doctrine \? really unless earth , purgatory , paul pointed \( 1 corinthians 3 15 \) poorer works , though still done good intentions , saved fire \( damned course go fire , whatever good god self \( dead works \) \) course , church gives , confession , sick remove sin sin , really little excuse ending purgatory last hope somewhat lazy careless said referring paul comments taken flames one polite people talked net andy byler ps balkan military adventures , old saw area produces history consumed locally alexander great , wwi ottoman empire , byzantine empire \( refer foreign adventures general \) , balkans wars 1913 , latin greek wars 1200 's , etc good place hop
sun075 ! gerry palo uunet uu net \( gerry palo \) subject portland earthquake lines 68 austin c archer \( saturn wwc edu \) wrote interested views non event may 3 seriously , christian discriminate messages god taken seriously , spurious \? useful would help us avoid embracing messages , non fulfillment proven false , thus causing name christ placed disrepute \? problem \? possible individual saw true prophetic vision , interpreted scale time space according material con , translating perceptions plane time space immediate worldly context getting wrong rationally , rather perceptions became clothed material images , instead remaining realm potential yet time space bound difficulty translating prophetic vision concrete always difficult , even prophets old prophecies often subject multiple interpretations likewise , apostles seemed feel return lord soon sense perhaps generation yet meaning soon proven different could grasp prophetic vision tends telescope time , things far appear close another possibility vision one real event preparing happen , realm potential yet manifest thwarted forces , including possibly act divine mercy many concrete prophecies made days devout sincere sober christians \( others \) seems great coming events really casting shadow arrival apocalyptic times various predictions \( i'm talking appear sincere sober \) hard accept , yet hard ignore com one feeling something start get ready begin commence happen living , chinese saying goes , interesting times discriminate , bible n't help much old testament passage \( forget \) says know whether prophet true whether prophecy comes pass helps eliminate failures fact , case earth quake small comfort seems prophecies give specific times places events suspect , necessarily false , sense stated , visions subject plane prophetic vision plane earthly time space worth , rudolf steiner asked whether modern initiate could see future predict coming events answer would possible would withdraw active , including proclaiming saw fact spiritual law , answer question discriminate one makes prophecies probably violating law , knowingly unknowingly , message considered priori dubious e would expect capable making true predictions giving accurate expression would way prophet oregon earthquake however , sympathize person published prophecy given overwhelming experience apparently , might feel impelled , even commissioned god tell fellow human beings seen gerry palo \( 73237 2006 compuserve com \) church historian readers know whether 's prophecy past \? n't get impression clh
seanna bnr ca \( seanna \( \) watson \) subject immaculate conception organization bell northern research , ottawa , canada lines 27 article may 9 05 39 52 1993 athos rutgers edu jhpb sarto budd lake nj us \( joseph h buehler \) writes referring mary immaculately conceived , never subject original sin , also never committed personal sin whole life possible special degree grace granted god quite problem idea mary never committed sin mary fully human \? possible god miraculously make person free original sin , free committing sin whole life , purpose incarnation jesus \? ca n't god repeat miracle done mary make rest us sinless , without need repentance salvation \? n't particularly object idea assumption , perpetual virginity \( regard catholic dogma agree disagree catholic brothers sisters christ \) , even believe virgin birth jesus , concept mary 's sinlessness seems odds rest christian doctrine understand seanna watson bell northern research , pray end living , \( seanna bnr ca \) ottawa , ontario , canada philosophies creeds , god find people busy opinion , opinions \? oh opinions planting trees sowing seeds , 're bnr 's , 're mine knew 'd left somewhere fred kaan
david bernard central sun com \( dave bernard \) subject mary 's assumption reply david bernard central sun com organization sun microsystems lines 9 also n't see necessity saying holy parents sanctified beyond normal humanity sounds like inability grasp immensity god 's grace incarnated dinary human elizabeth greeted mary , elizabeth said something effect mary , women , blessed , appears exactly places mary beyond sanctification normal humanity
db7n andrew cmu edu \( andrew byler \) subject deuterocanonicals , esp sirach organization freshman , civil engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 21 michael siemon writes furthermore , inaccurate say reformers threw books basically , placed secondary status \( jerome already done \) , additional warning doctrine based citations alone protestants love play jerome worth remeber decree pope st damsus , jerome hesitate , quoted scripture later writings already pointed , previous letter subject , catholic church accepted deuterocanon beginning protestants 1500 's sudden old theory , condemned pope , council , church , deuterocanon inspired , must church jesus christ adopt canon unbelieving jews , drawn jamnia 90 ad , christian use septuagint andy byler
richw mks com \( rich wales \) subject mormons eternal marriage \( mormon temples \) reply richw mks com \( rich wales \) organization mortice kern systems inc , waterloo , ontario , canada lines 40 david hammerslag asked \( mormons \) reconcile idea eternal marriage christ 's statement resurrection people neither marry given marriage \( luke , chapt 20 \) \? several explanations seeming contradiction proposed , lds scholars whose opinions studied take less one following three positions \( 1 \) jesus talking group people \( sadducees \) trying trip felt silly hypothetical tion ridiculed concept resurrection \( something n't believe \) people associated \( us seven brethren , matt 22 25 \) would receptive higher blessings eternal marriage hence , people story would likely married ties n't mean , faithful people could blessing \( 2 \) jesus making distinction state condition married , process becoming married latter activity \( marrying giving marriage \) take place , eternal marriages taken care \( 3 \) account \( three synoptic gospels \) missing something would make real meaning clearer note \( lds \) believe biblical inerrancy , general feel obliged reconcile every bible text modern revelation joseph smith latter day ets particularly upset account question significantly revised joseph smith translation inspired version bible , since believe work completed failure revise passage con divine approval passage stands kjv rich wales richw mks com mortice kern systems inc \( mks \) 35 king st n waterloo , ontario , canada 2w9 1 \( 519 \) 884
db7n andrew cmu edu \( andrew byler \) subject deuterocanonicals , esp sirach organization freshman , civil engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 78 barney resson writes counts , apocrapha falls short glory god quote unger 's bible dictionary apocrapha 1 abound historical geographical inaccuracies anachronisms parts bible taken literally e psalms saying earth move , implication earth flat four corners , etc bible written teach salvation , history science 2 teach doctrines false foster practices variance sacred scripture ones \? dead intercession saints \? \( taught 2 maccabees , sirach , tobit \) 3 resort literary types display subject matter styling keeping sacred scripture subjective judgement falling short judgement , infallible rather church jesus christ \( see 1 timothy 3 15 \) 4 lack distinctive elements give genuine scripture divine character , prophetic power poetic religious feeling subjective feelings proof anything one persons feelings problem argument lies assumption hebrew canon included apocrapha first place , n't sixteenth century luther co threw jewish council mentioned previously n't accept , reformation protestants good historical precedence actions jerome translated apocrapha protest , literally dead included catholic canon written time , hebrew canon fixed jamnia , palestine , 90 ad 60 years foundation one , holy , catholic , apostolic church furthermore , jerome count neither church , pope , ecumenical council , council general , church private individual , learned admittedly , subject opinion deuterocanon , , pope damsus , council carthage , tradition fathers , clearly shows , pointed previous post view words warn everyone hears words prophecy book anyone adds anything , god add plagues described book anyone takes away book prophecy , god take away share tree life holy city \( rev 22 18 9 \) suggest take heed last part statement , want take sense taking , taking away book cause lose heaven also noteworthy consider jesus' attitude argument pharisees ot canon \( john 10 31 6 \) , explained followers road emmaus law , prophets psalms referred ot division scripture \( luke 24 44 \) , well luke 11 51 taking genesis chronicles \( jewish order would say genesis malachi \) scripture order canon unimportant , content matters none jesus' deuterocanon , throughout canon remeber , completely undisputed books , ezra , nehemiah , esther , , song songs , job , etc quoted new testament , taken prejudicial inspired andy byler
db7n andrew cmu edu \( andrew byler \) subject doctrine original sin organization freshman , civil engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 16 bigelow writes also noteworthy consider jesus' attitude argument pharisees ot canon \( john 10 31 6 \) , explained followers road emmaus law , prophets psalms referred ot division scripture \( luke 24 44 \) , well luke 11 51 taking genesis chronicles \( jewish order would say genesis malachi \) scripture remember adam 's transgression , men women sinned , paul wrote humanity god 's sin , thus , subject , sin transmitted generation generation andy byler
tas pegasus com \( len howard \) subject satan kicked heaven biblical \? organization pegasus , honolulu lines 14 article may 7 01 09 04 1993 athos rutgers edu easteee wkuvx1 bitnet writes hello , question satan taught long time ago satan really angel god kicked heaven challenged god 's authority problem , cannot find bible bible \? , originate \? wondering , eddie hi eddie , many people believe battle described rev 12 7 12 describes casting satan heaven fall earth shalom , len howard
shellgate ! llo uu4 psi com \( larry l overacker \) subject mormon temples organization shell oil lines 17 article may 11 02 38 41 1993 athos rutgers edu mserv mozart cc iup edu \( mail server \) writes n't necessarily object secrecy question , since see biblical reason aspect christian worship involve secrecy early church history , dismissed prior celebration eucharist secret , giving rise rumors christians sorts perverse claims actions considered holy observed non christians , well potentially dangerous individual christian might identified larry overacker \( llo shell com \) lawrence overacker shell oil company , information center houston , tx \( 713 \) 245 2965 llo shell com
shellgate ! llo uu4 psi com \( larry l overacker \) subject christianity repeated lives organization shell oil lines 17 article may 11 02 38 37 1993 athos rutgers edu kevxu cunyvm bitnet writes n't origen usually cited prestigious proponent reincarnation among christian thinkers \? views , relate christian scriptures \? appears believed view condemned action , often taken condemnation idea reincarnation actually condemned doctrine pre existence soul birth similar , exactly thing larry overacker \( shell com \) lawrence overacker shell oil company , information center houston , tx \( 713 \) 245 2965 llo shell com
pwhite empros com \( peter white \) subject question hell lines 70 article may 11 02 36 38 1993 athos rutgers edu , umn cs cs umn edu \( dale \) writes basis idea hell place eternal suffering \? biblical , please reference 's train thought god using earth manufacture heavenly beings , logical would certain yield , certain amount waste yield goes heaven , waste burned \( destroyed \) hell necessary punish waste , rather destroy \? luke 16 talks rich man lazarus matthew 25 talks eternal fire prepared devil angels revelations 20 21 reference fire place unbelievers thrown matthew 18 talks thrown eternal fire fire hell seems quite clear place fire burns forever revelations passages clear devil angels tormented forever matthew 25 passage n't seem abundantly clear whether punishment unbelievers everlasting sense final sense continual dale 's question , come away suggestion hell , short , might acceptable alternative living forever source life , peace joy e ceases exist whereas , punishment goes continually , one greater motivation avoid definately seems hell something want avoid regardless exact nature seem two main questions dale 's thought god 's main plan earth \? continual punishment necessary part hell opposed simply destroying completely refuse god \? believe god 's main plan genuine relationship people nature hell reasons nature seem lot difficult ascertain seem clear hell something avoid minimum , hell state one one nothing god bible , aware discussion specifics hell beyond general hot , unpleasant torment instance , discussed \( \) rich man continually stay fire still feel discomfort pain whether point pain sensing ability burned forgive , throw physical body fire , assuming person starts alive , fairly quick point , nerves destroyed pain longer sensed stated occurs judgement , unbelievers , \( already physically dead \) cast hell e longer physical body ca n't feel physical pain could sensed continually hell forever without god lazarus rich man parable told idea listener think physical terms order get point people wo n't listen god even rises dead point parable reach hard hearted listening fact resurrection gospel jesus christ seems reasonable also draw parable hell even remotely pleasant peter white disclaimer none written necessarily reflects view company phil want know christ power 3 10 resurrection fellowship sharing niv sufferings , becoming like death
dps nasa kodak com \( dan schaertel , , , \) subject homosexuality issues christianity reply dps nasa kodak com organization eastman kodak company lines 20 article 28328 athos rutgers edu , carlson ab24 larc nasa gov \( ann carlson \) writes anyone thinks gay christianity compatible check dignity , integrity , light presbyterian churches , affirmation , mcc churches , etc meet gay christians , find , pray , discuss scripture , form opinion start religion , would fine scriptural basis statement , fact really gets heart problem think know scripture faith driven feel word god nice people n't make right start churches want wo n't change fact wrong imply gays n't deserve love forgiveness anyone else call behavior right nice people baseless , offers satan perfect place work check suspect ann suggesting look see whether spirit alive among , whether nice people , though 's something said nice clh
creps lateran ucs indiana edu \( stephen creps \) subject defending faith iv conference organization indiana university lines 121 enclosed advertisement defending faith iv conference held university \( ohio \) june 25 27 attended iii last year , plan go year would recommend highly catholic interested lots music , well known catholic speakers , fellowship , well friday sunday registration 85 per person , believe financial aid available need housing residence halls \( blessed chapel \) , desired , 30 person double occupancy two nights \( 30 total \) reservations also made nearby holiday inn think 47 night single room meals available cafeteria \( friday dinner sunday lunch \) 38 32 , without breakfast , respectively university located eastern ohio us route 22 , 1 2 mile west ohio river ohio route 7 greater pittsburgh international airport less one hour \( 35 miles \) campus feel free e mail question answer agenda , typed friend mine friday afternoon special reflections c lewis , preliminary session walter hooper walter hooper one foremost international experts writings c lewis 1963 , served secretary c lewis , since edited 18 literary works publication walter ordained priest church england 1965 , serving oxford , england , entered catholic church 1988 friday evening , opening session search truth finding fullness faith bishop fabian know rites hahn saturday morning means never say 're sorry karl keating c lewis catholic church walter hooper mass bishop , fr ray , saturday afternoon mystery excludes priesthood dr alice von hildebrand men make better fathers male priesthood dr peter saturday evening catholics hear gospel \? dr thomas howard catholic gospel saving sinners scott hahn sunday morning 's place like rome pilgrimage two protestant pastors panel mass fr ray , fr michael , tor , ad appeared catholic answer defending faith iv conference catholic church teaching know believe june 25 27 , 1993 times changed major catholic doctrines misunderstood attacked like never , believers need know reasons behind catholic church 's teaching first pope urged always ready give defense hope within \( peter 3 15 \) grab notebooks get ready spiritual intellectual weekend year 's conference confront hardest questions objections catholic faith deepen understanding church teaching scott hahn , dr thomas howard , karl keating , dr alice von hildebrand , dr peter , fr ray cut throught confusion doubt , better equipped give defense hope within join us defending faith iv , fourth series annual conferences designed strengthen life catholics others interested catholic faith help know believe call toll free today university 800 437 tent 614 283 , ohio steve creps , indiana university creps lateran ucs indiana edu
petch gvg47 gvg tek com \( chuck \) subject daily verse lines 3 given authority trample snakes overcome power enemy nothing harm luke 10 19
amoco com \( randy l hunt \) subject love morning malcolm smith ministries lines 184 begin included message following teaching brought behalf malcolm smith ministries , ministry dedicated leading believers everywhere knowledge love god would like info ministry , would like comment whether found teaching beneficial , e mail randy hunt hou amoco com love morning \( psalm 90 14 \) malcolm smith moses wrote prayer weary time history israel generation time writing , people israel stood kadesh , gateway canaan , made choice go way rather god 's way refused adventure faith god would given canaan , homeland promise god honored decision , said would wander desert miles land promise buried sand young decision makers day twenty thirty years old , destined dead within forty years bones desert time seventy eighty , lives wanderers sadness moses described ending year sigh \( v 9 \) fact knew , give take months , going die , existence whatever heights success reached , would heap bones within forty years ones live outside depression hopeless disbelief joshua caleb , stood nation kadesh promise one day entering land forty year period finally drawing end new generation , children kadesh , grown eager take inheritance parents refused enjoy light , moses prays time new day begin days misery years , moses walked complaining people wilderness exile , carried double burden sadness living less could also knew chosen kadesh problem ignorant character god asked god \? would described god power aaron created concept god idol chose calf young bull symbol power , minds , god young bull pharaoh horns egypt 's gods led israel sinai man worships god power , miracles grow thin even boring miracle food desert floor water miraculously solid rock desert , god becomes ho hum next miracle menu \? god power unpredictable young bull calf might need , knows \? power , right whatever wants , whenever wants person people known absolute power pharaoh , men 's lives hung whim , could change wind believed god could work wonders behalf , know , , could trust israel god based , acts moses knew heart god , motivation behind acts day encounter burning bush , moses fascinated god sinai , asked shown glory know really seen god done wanted know god request granted , moses given glimpse god 's glorious person come know heart god compassion lovingkindness \( exodus 34 6 , 7 \) word lovingkindness understood human kind love speaks kind relationship arising making covenant understood love says , never leave forsake lovingkindness british world walks , love heels refuses leave human romantic love , based feelings rooted emotions love covenant commitment , therefore , operates quite apart feelings god 's love emotion day day total commitment seek highest best , bring us fullest potential humans god see something good beautiful us feelings love toward us woo cause fall love us ! case , first ugly , sinful thing would cause reject us love , loves us love , committed us , pursuing us every blind alley foolishness let us go love looking get us committed love searches opportunities give us saying recipient , long shall live , god revealed man scripture , finally , jesus coming , death resurrection god lovingkindness thus loves us gives us never leave us forsake us tragically , many believers never seen love see power one come faith seeing miracles miracles point , faith springs heart israel see god lovingkindness saw acts power moses knew ways , kind god , love people total lack understanding love , could trust strength taking land faith born knowing love us resting response one gives us force , call almighty miss heart love almighty infinite force man make force raw power work , must depend knowing faith power issues love demands faith person love forty years meaningless wandering monument people never come know god love point , new generation possibility enjoying god promised , moses prays verse 14 language moses uses reminiscent baby slept secure mother 's love , waking look delight eyes waking consciousness loved watched , cared , protected , fed , cleaned , day night , mother suppose ask , baby done deserve \? , arrangements made child repay parents inconvenience \? questions would considered unnatural , even immoral child conceived love , anticipated prepared love 's excitement , love gates death bring parents' love unconditional , spontaneous nothing looks child performance god love loves us unconditionally , spontaneously conceived imagination fashioned image , brought moment blood lord jesus slanderous , immoral , even ask must earn deserve love child discovers identity eyes touch , , parents' love scientific fact baby touched held probably die , survives , severe emotional problems person held loved still never know true meaning life without embrace knowledge love god moses prays new generation learn wake every morning , resting total confidence love god receive promises blessings joy significantly , moses prays satisfied love satisfied hebrew language rich picture word describing filled abundance gourmet food also used describe earth rain soaked vegetation received enough water moses prays awaken every morning life giving love god sense satisfaction lifelong quest every man woman satisfied deepest selves , many emotional even physical problems disappear man seeks sense satisfaction comes feeling fulfilled human hours meaning , make sense ordinary mundane apart god , man seeks satisfaction intellectual pursuit , exciting emotions , feeding body even seek religious exercise man always dissatisfied responding love living god knowing god 's love rest life make sense forty years drew close land promise became inheritance taken , moses prayed psalm find fascinating pray ask god daily revelation love considering awe people held moses one would think could subject lovingkindness , knowledge gained , would live moses knew better god one make known us love wo n't find religious lecture formula learn use manipulate beautiful poem emotions give us god feelings god , , lover , must open eyes satisfy us love prayer man , helplessness , asking god make love real hearts prayer partially answered next generation seen exploits faith worked love book judges would answered fullest dimensions coming holy spirit , love god hearts \( romans 5 5 \) history early church , read holy spirit falling upon believers ancient expression , modern english , means give bear hug used luke 15 describe father running prodigal falling neck kissing holy spirit god deepest self divine kisses deepest level one time experience filed spiritual resumes moses prayed morning morning would awaken realization loved world , much religious training , taught us perform order accepted spent far long living state order find satisfaction find acceptance love others , god come receive love cannot earn still let tell us loved let holy spirit descend us , pouring love god come stillness think repeat words love minds doctrine perform accepted begin realize loves us , gives meaning purpose life challenge everyone reading begin day , moment open eyes , celebrating god love praying prayer may feel anything , something always happens x day see feel anything , noted technicians kept behind protective walls know cannot exposed rays without affected consciously begin day knowing loved knowledge produce , according moses , joy days joy result life functioning god intended us function made us might say joy hum engine peak performance man' highest performance rest love god hum joy , result endless creativity arising sense meaning life stop wandering wilderness satisfied love , joy , day day , receive promised blessings end included message
swf elsegundoca ncr com \( stan friesen \) subject sj mercury 's reference fundamentalist christian parents reply swf elsegundoca ncr com lines 49 article may 11 02 37 07 1993 athos rutgers edu , dan ingres com \( rose arose \) writes monday , may 10 morning edition san jose mercury news article sandra gonzales top page 12a explained convicted killer david edwin mason 's troubled childhood saying , raised oakland san lorenzo strict fundamentalist christian parents , mason beaten child instances child abuse deleted san jose mercury news come article starting raised oakland mexican parents , mason beaten , face would red anger injustice done mexican family members mexican community whole open like practiced encouraged san jose mercury news pointed christian community \? perhaps connection mexican variant bring , many \( \) extreme fundamentalist christians use excuse teaching children biblical morality justify sort mistreatment see many mexicans using mexican heritage excuse abuse indeed judgemental , controlling legalism many fundamentalist christians led reject branch faith true gospel christ , gospel love seen sort thing often , even amoung relatives , believe relationship often leads overly strict , thus abusive , discipline children restricted christian fundamentalism , found many extreme sects legalistic religions good christian continue purchase newspapers buy advertising kind newspaper \? really bad journalism , , christian condone use bible justify sort abuse believe exposing horrors biblical concept discipline abuses stopped someone also christian mean must identify eith sort sin needs made public sarima teradata com \( formerly tdatirv ! sarima \) stanley friesen elsegundoca ncr com
swf elsegundoca ncr com \( stan friesen \) subject major views trinity reply swf elsegundoca ncr com lines 40 article may 11 02 37 09 1993 athos rutgers edu , write fear orthodox theologians overly love paradox , extent well meaning people think 've flat confused 's problem things 3 1 , e g 3 different parts 1 're way different aspects , modes , whatever , one god accept economic trinitarianism , 's possible n't substantive difference standard view possible n't find neo platonic explanation illuminating \? clh would put stronger consider nonsense simply put , see way platonic essence could real existance essence platonic sense referent far tell imaginary concept invented provide explanation things better explained ways , attribute god attribute something exist ! ! thus orthodox platonic formulation seems leave unity god , since based non existant , thus failing avoid problem supposed address thus , , unity god must primary , must secondary , must modal \( relating roles , modes interaction \) , since otherwise meaning saying god one sarima teradata com \( formerly tdatirv ! sarima \) stanley friesen elsegundoca ncr com think one read augustine saying something consistent comments de influential west defines distinction among persons 're probably one extreme orthodox views , i'm sure views necessary incompatible trinity clh
poram ihlpb att com subject dreams body incidents organization lines 44 article may 11 02 37 40 1993 athos rutgers edu dt4 cs hub ucsb edu \( david e goggin \) writes 'd like get comments question mind lot morals ethics apply dreams body incidents \? dave might like read book god wants rich doctrines , discusses oobes one chapters bible examples men caught spirit \( eg ezekiel , paul \) believe also experience satan example eastern techniques used induce soul leave body float someone tried sell book los angeles airport entitled easy planets uses techniques medium sometimes involves body departure book counterfeit , former medium gets saved , tells author , last , attacked evil spirits tried kill returning body end interest christianity protected lord may similarities mind altering drugs phenomena regards connection body soul , interesting verse ecclesiastes passage talking old age , preacher writes man goes eternal home go streets remember silver cord severed \( 12 5 6 \) understanding silver cord something attaches body soul manner somewhat similar umbilical cord astronaut 's air line spaceship person goes body silver cord still attaches soul whereever goes vulnerable broken astral projection dangerous ! , think , reports case yogi oobe found dead apartment , apparent external cause barney resson many shall run fro , knowledge shall increase \( daniel \)
iastate edu \( kevin l rens \) subject christian reformed organization iowa state university , ames , ia lines 7 anyone belong know facts christian reformed church \? 's one two major heirs dutch reformed tradition u reformed church america crc less rca unclear reference exactly differences clh
wagner grace math uh edu \( david wagner \) subject baptism requires faith organization uh dept math lines 132 aaron aaron bryce cardenas aaronc athena mit edu writes aaron colossians 2 11 12 also circumcised , aaron putting sinful nature , circumcision done aaron christ , buried baptism raised aaron faith power god , raised aaron dead aaron baptism , raised new life christ \( romans 6 4 \) aaron personal faith power god parent 's aaron faith cannot infants faith \? let 's look aaron bible say yes , let try anyone causes one little ones believes sin , would better thrown sea large tied around neck mark 9 42 let little children come , hinder , kingdom god belongs tell truth , anyone receive kingdom god like little child never enter colossians passage make faith requirement baptism merely says baptism born , , resurrected faith case infant would say baptism works faith heart infant power word colossians passage make baptism spiritual circumcision circumcision means male infant made part god 's covenant israel commanded performed eighth day early church understood , even debated whether baptism performed eighth day , could fact done earlier aaron romans 10 16 17 israelites accepted good aaron news isaiah says , 'lord , believed message \? ' aaron consequently , faith comes hearing message , aaron message heard word christ aaron receive god 's gift faith us hear aaron message gospel gospel surely preached infant 's \( adult 's \) baptism indeed , real sense , sacraments gospel made tangible aaron faith possible response hearing aaron god 's word preached kids yet spiritually , aaron intellectually , emotionally mature enough respond aaron god 's word know yet mature enough faith \? know basis god 's word , reason \? faith also described gift god , ephesians 2 8 , 9 gives faith infants gives adults , power gospel , romans 1 6 aaron read ezekiel 18 , see god n't aaron hold us guilty anyone else 's sins aaron original guilt adam show n't understand original sin arguing straw man maybe 've talking catholics much n't know original sin consist god 's adam 's guilt us consists inheritance adam 's sinful nature actual sin see example , augsburg confession , article ii , apology augsburg confession , article ii , , extra credit , john knox 's `the scots , article iii aaron little background aaron original sin biblical , let 's look aaron scriptures used support aaron romans 5 12 therefore , sin entered world aaron one man , death sin , way death came aaron men , sinned ask question infants ever die \? ask , infant baptism valid , christian church centuries almost performed infants \? luther , , calvin , , hus , knox , , christians \? aaron psalm 51 5 surely sinful birth , sinful time aaron mother conceived aaron whole psalm wonderful example humble aaron god repentance sinning david aaron man god 's heart wrote psalm aaron committing murdering husband aaron david saying ca n't remember time aaron n't sinful humbling god aaron confessing sinfulness saying sinful aaron birth hyperbole bible , inspired god , n't aaron limited literal , also uses figures aaron speech jesus \( john 16 25 \) another example aaron hyperbole , see luke 14 26 say literal \? literal interpretation absurd psalm 51 reason direct contradiction clear passage word god \? might also compare genesis 8 21 , lord pleasing said heart , curse ground man , even though every inclination heart evil childhood aaron see aaron grow become wiser luke 2 40 2 52 aaron implication jesus wrong things child aaron knew choose right wrong long way proving \( rather monstrous \) assertion say jesus grew wisdom stature conclusion wrong child based reason , direct revelation scripture david h wagner mad reason rushes forth , confessional lutheran baptism like works , regards worthless martin luther , large catechism , fourth part , baptism
revdak netcom com \( andrew kille \) subject soc religion christian organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 18 dozier \( dozier utkux1 utk edu \) wrote reading posts newsgroup pasts 4 months , become apparent group primarily active liberals , catholics , new , athiests someone might think change name soc religion perhaps even soc religion new might seem appropriate heck , n't flame , i'm catholic , gay , voted bill clinton i'm side ! since conservative , protestant , old time religion believers get exclusive christianity \? christianity , always , diverse contentious tradition , group reflects diversity , fo one , ready concede group liberal conservative , catholic , protestant , orthodox , charismatic right claim truth , everyone else christian revdak netcom com
mail sas upenn edu \( judith \) subject questions organization university pennsylvania , school arts sciences lines 7 arthur clarke may quoted comment knowing 're hanged morning concentrating man 's mind wonderfully , source comment samuel johnson \( pardon already knew \) je
sfp lemur cit cornell edu \( sheila patterson \) subject soc religion christian organization cornell university cit lines 47 article may 12 04 26 55 1993 athos rutgers edu , dozier utkux1 utk edu \( dozier \) writes reading posts newsgroup pasts 4 months , become apparent group primarily active liberals , catholics , new , athiests someone might think change name soc religion perhaps even soc religion new might seem appropriate heck , n't flame , i'm catholic , gay , voted bill clinton i'm side ! sentiments exactly i'm group 3rd discussion list ever belonged i'm chased away strife , anger , discontent , lies , et al paul \( saul \) said , 'i come preach christ , n't let simple beauty faith god get theological discussions thousands lines post incarnation church atheists agnostics read list n't christian intention ever becoming one earth waste time mine participating christian discussion list \? continue search christian discussion \( , spirit filled , kind , humble , patient , etc \) circles sheila patterson , cit cr technical support group 315 ccc cornell university ithaca , ny 14853 \( 607 \) 255 i'm afraid discussion group containing people different views tends turn arguments largest differences present talk religion misc spends lot time christian atheist arguments , soc religion christian spends lot time arguments among different christian groups , bitnet catholic group spends lot time arguments conservative liberal catholics personally would prefer set somewhat specialized groups , least alternative liberal conservative protestant catholic would handle traffic , though certainly significant groups \( e g orthodox \) course may readers like arguments certainly find painful clh
aidler sol uvic ca \( e alan idler \) subject doctrine original sin organization university victoria lines 49 wkuvx1 bitnet writes , n't sinned , come short glory god \( romans 3 23 \) \? cite scripture claim even babes require baptism neglect sin imputed law \( romans 5 13 \) therefore , someone capable comprehending god 's laws accountable living book life removed make conscious decision disobey god idler babies supposed baptised n't bible ever say never comes right says people know right wrong taught baptised christ say assure , one enter god 's kingdom without born water spirit surprised tell must begotten could everyone born original sin \? \( presume quoting john 3 3 7 \) 1 king james bible says except man born water spirit , cannot enter kingdom god \( john 3 5 \) \( man adult \) \( however , could quibble translations \) 2 also analyze lord addressing marvel said unto thee , ye must born \( john 3 7 \) jesus clearly directing remarks nicodemus ruler jews \( child \) 3 ask lord would even introduce concept spiritual birth baptism newborn babies n't free sin \? idler yup , john 3 5 man original better translation one enter , nrsv course 3 7 , jesus addressing person came places nt deals children 've mentioned postings clh
sun075 ! gerry palo uunet uu net \( gerry palo \) subject christianity repeated lives lines 73 article may 11 02 38 37 1993 athos rutgers edu kevxu cunyvm bitnet wr ites essentially discussion reincarnation context christianity gerry palo made comparisons asian religious beliefs topic simplified asian idea karma point misrepresentation realized generalizations would probably problems scrutiny various asian points view need discussed detail , indeed purposes newsgroup thread thus far newsgroup , risked main purpose emphasize coming buddhist hindu point view observed , main context christianity means , add comments corrections find wrote longer reply addressing points , decided post perhaps would appropriate soc religion eastern instead add following couple items karma reincarnation see matter christian point view 1 karma simple reward punishment dealt judging deity 2 reincarnation born 3 reincarnation resurrection body 4 reincarnation karma contradict fundamental teachings christianity god , fall , incarnation , death , resurrection christ , coming , sin , grace , forgiveness , salvation , last judgement n't origen usually cited prestigious proponent reincarnation among christian thinkers \? views , relate christian scriptures \? jack carroll origen 's work mostly lost , knowledge , writing comes largely fragments quotations enemies perhaps someone else comment origen n't know specific statement reincarnation , know probably hold teaching one form another n't know much history idea reincarnation church however , heard interesting story pope john paul ii astronomer teaches university pope likes go poland scientific conference every couple years relax talk polish friends fellow acquaintance , , related fact knew steiner anthroposophy early days became priest actor dramatic company whose leader steiner based acting directing methods steiner 's indications part work study basic works anthroposophy well , going conference years ago , astronomer another polish thought would ask pope thought anthroposophy last minute , one ask thought reincarnation pope smiled said , actually quite good catholics believed reincarnation , proceeded name several earliest times modern times changed subject polish friend say whether origen among mentioned gerry palo \( 73237 2006 compuserve com \) far know origen controversial , avoided outright condemnation lifetime however views condemned council alexandria 400 two councils constantinople 543 553 fairly sure souls one doctrines condemned clh
scic intel com \( charles \) subject mormon temples organization intel corporation , beaverton , lines 44 dhammers pacific \? \( david hammerslag \) \( mormons \) reconcile idea eternal marriage christ 's statement resurrection people neither marry given marriage \( luke , chapt 20 \) \? footnotes bibles reference verse book tobit tobit septuagint published book called apocrypha bookstore rate , jews christ 's day book story mostly centered around son tobit named tobias young lady , sarah , entered chamber seven brothers succession brothers died chamber marriage tobias entitled sarah wife \( 3 17 \) tobias relative destined tobias beginning \( 6 17 \) tobias took wife able marriage seven husbands would partner heaven eliminate tobias , eighth husband tobit fun interesting story read 's kind mythical romance 's little shorter esther lds also scriptures parallel amplify luke 20 notably doctrines covenants 132 15 16 therefore , man marry wife world , marry word , covenant long world , covenant marriage force dead , world therefore , bound law world therefore , world neither marry given marriage appointed angels heaven , angels servants , minister worthy far , exceeding , eternal weight glory cordially , charles
hayesstw risc1 unisa ac za \( steve hayes \) subject kingdom theology organization university south africa lines 25 recently always understood term kingdom theology mean theology kingdom god , discovered new specialized meaning gather also called dominion theology , belief christians must create form government earth christ come come across anyone believes advocates , told widespread belief usa anyone give information \? questions 1 teaching particular denomination \? , \? 2 start \? 3 particular publications propagate \? 4 organizations propagate \? steve hayes , department missiology editorial department univ south africa , p box 392 , pretoria , 0001 south africa internet hayesstw risc1 unisa ac za fidonet 5 7101 20 steve hayes p5 f22 n7101 z5 fidonet org faq missiology study christian mission part faculty theology unisa
aidler sol uvic ca \( e alan idler \) subject doctrine original sin organization university victoria lines 49 article may 10 05 07 56 1993 athos rutgers edu , wkuvx1 bitnet writes therefore , someone capable comprehending god 's laws accountable living book life removed make conscious decision disobey god idler babies supposed baptised n't bible ever say never comes right says people know right wrong taught baptised christ say assure , one enter god 's kingdom without born water spirit surprised tell must begotten could everyone born original sin \? earlier discussions thread may given impression even though children n't require baptism would n't hurt contrary , baptize children capable comprehending deny opportunity demonstrate desire serve god considered children accountable sin capable repentance \? peter said group men brethren , repent baptized every one \( acts 2 38 \) notice specified repent may baptized following peter 's instructions people must first demonstrate repentance \( forsaking sins desire obey god 's commands \) eligible baptized since young children capable repenting , eligible baptism since god merciful sin imputed law \( romans 5 13 \) , young children accountable ca n't comprehend idler
gt7122b prism gatech edu \( randal lee nicholas mandock \) subject doctrine original sin organization georgia institute technology lines 20 article may 12 04 29 14 1993 athos rutgers edu mdw33310 uxa cso uiuc edu \( michael walker \) writes feeling baptism parents baptize baby baby sanctifying grace baptism \( thus removal original sin \) soul event unexpected death right , michael john 3 5 , jesus says , amen , amen , say , one enter kingdom god without born water spirit 's really said , meant verse definition baptism n't law book front , canon law urges parents baptize children within one week birth reason state randal lee nicholas mandock catechist gt7122b prism gatech edu
wjhovi01 ulkyvx louisville edu \( bill , lpts student \) subject hate sin organization university louisville lines 12 scott prism gatech edu \( scott holt \) writes hate sin love sinner 've heard quite bit recently , often context discussions christianity homosexuality context really n't important question whether statement consistent christianity would think i'm grateful scott 's reflections oft quoted phrase could someone please remind scriptural source \? \( rom 12 9 n't count , kids \) manner little piece conventional wisdom applied , experience , uniformly hateful destructive billh
jhpb sarto budd lake nj us \( joseph h buehler \) subject public private revelation \( formerly question virgin mary organization none lines 44 \( marty helgesen \) writes alleged private revelation attracts sufficient attention , church may investigate investigation indicates likelihood alleged private revelation fact god , approved means preached church however , still true one required believe came god catholic free deny authenticity even well attested strongly approved private revelations , fatima lourdes \( suspect catholics reject fatima lourdes , rejection mean orthodox catholics good standing \) may bit much say catholic free deny happened fatima 's bit strong , sort like saying catholic free deny hong kong exists catholic free deny truth fatima , without called heretic labeled things offense , heretic theologians make basic distinction far degree assent one must give events like fatima lourdes things revealed god jesus christ apostles must given assent due revelation god total fatima lourdes demand assent much well attested event human history perhaps bit , given approval church approval apparition church principally means whatever happened harmony catholic faith personally think private revelations lord 's way telling us particular periods history gave us doctrines , etc , 2000 years ago , always use help knowing exactly apply gave us catholic devotion sacred heart result series apparitions st margaret mary , example problem time extreme moral turning lord someone without heart fatima apparitions warning impending crisis church \( living \) , save souls possible situation
jhpb sarto budd lake nj us \( joseph h buehler \) subject bible immaculate conception organization none lines 18 article may 12 04 29 48 1993 athos rutgers edu jek cu nih gov writes put enmity serpent woman , seed seed , also read shall crush head shall bruise heel genesis 3 15 hebrew genesis 3 15 , gender clearly masculine shall crush head , shall bruise heel latin feminine forms , accident grammar yet see adequate explanation st jerome 's translation genesis 3 15 latin clearly uses feminine , n't know , since hebrew clearly masculine anyone knows scholarly treatment puzzle , would appreciate hearing
jhpb sarto budd lake nj us \( joseph h buehler \) subject baptism requires faith organization none lines 43 \( aaron bryce cardenas \) writes romans 10 16 17 israelites accepted good news isaiah says , 'lord , believed message \? ' consequently , faith comes hearing message , message heard word christ receive god 's gift faith us hear message gospel faith possible response hearing god 's word preached kids yet spiritually , intellectually , emotionally mature enough respond god 's word hence cannot faith therefore cannot raised baptism new life catholics view effects baptism slightly differently , 's one primary reason baptize babies believe baptism produces change soul baby , quite independently act part baby change baby 's soul gives infant certain capabilities would without baptism since infant use intellect yet , new faculties dormant child gets older , gifts baptism come play ezekiel 18 20 soul sins die son share guilt father , father share guilt son righteousness righteous man credited , wickedness wicked charged read ezekiel 18 , see god n't hold us guilty anyone else 's sins original guilt adam adam given number gifts god chief among catholics call sanctifying grace \( new testament , word used charity \) sin , adam lost grace n't lose , however , lost whole human race lost , could n't pass descendents 's catholics baptize babies original sin , adam lost sanctifying grace descendents christ instituted baptism give back everyone babies punished anything personally simply lacking something need , order enter heaven
liberty uc wlu edu \( scott dittman \) subject definition christianity \? organization washington lee university lines 12 although simplistic always liked fact christian one believes god , believes god name first given externally identify preached christ crucified pay price shortcomings god god said son belive scott dittman email wlu edu university registrar talk \( 703 \) 463 fax \( 703 \) 463 washington lee university snail mail lexington virginia 's certainly good things christians follow definition may bit hard apply clh
bst rochester edu \( john \) subject definition christianity \? organization university rochester lines 29 article may 12 04 28 31 1993 9972 athos rutgers edu clh writes often get discussions christian unfortunately number possible definitions starting broadest , commonly used definitions 3 \) next level attempt give broad doctrinal definition , includes major strands christianity , excludes groups felt outside historic christianity course slippery enterprise , since catholics could argue protestants outside historic christianity , etc think commonly accepted definition would based something like nicene creed formula chalcedon sure want include chalcedon \? presume mean description jesus fully human fully devine almost everyone would consider majority copts armenians , , christians , yet 15 centuries maintained disagree formula chalcedon would n't consider christians likely object communities n't require personal commitment jesus , tangentially related formula chalcedon thanks , john , bst rochester edu understand recent discussion , copts practical purposes accept chalcedon talk one nature rather two , issue seems one terminology rather substance clh
seanna bnr ca \( seanna \( \) watson \) subject accepting jeesus heart organization bell northern research , ottawa , canada lines 86 article apr 29 01 29 24 1993 geneva rutgers edu johnsd2 rpi edu writes article geneva rutgers edu , seanna bnr ca \( seanna \( \) watson \) writes deletia recovery programs , etc need show thing spiritual need may necessary show spirits \( souls , whatnot \) exist god important far tell get feeling debating cross purposes see fundamental assumptions , perhaps makes answers orthogonal questions try perhaps believe nothing exists aside objectively observable provable things case , cannot show thing spirit spiritual need things exist realm objective , realm subjective otoh , wish simply \( explicitly , please \) assume spirits exist , show would needs , handles needs way assume god exists help 'll play along \( , assume mean alcoholics anonymous , alt atheism \) would say aa handles spiritual needs rather would say aa \( 12 step programs \) help people come terms needs ie aa recovery , part recovery , recognize spiritual needs , begin rely higher power \( 12 step 's term \) fill instead whatever substance abuse accustomed \( sorry , objective proof either way take 2 identical alcoholics try one recover fulfilling spiritual needs , one without externally compare difference talking virtually infinite complexity people \) say , god necessary component spiritual needs truely understand sounds like spirits needs fulfilled god , masked ways \( drugs etc \) case , leave god describe problem , solution spiritual needs could defined things people need addition physical requirements like air , food , sleep , etc things like need love acceptance , need meaning life one denies existence spiritual things , one would presumably call emotional needs reason christians call spiritual needs aspects except spiritual means ie person could loved accepted many people , many meaningful things , still need love , satisfied love god problem people accept existence needs , people reject since believe absolute truth , people right , others wrong 2 possibilities 1 \) christians right , spiritual needs ie need god realize need god deluded n't recognized yet 2 \) christians wrong , spiritual needs brain chemicals well adjusted properly integrated personalities things christians simply using concept god spiritual needs mask inadequacies hate point , existence spirits spiritual needs cannot objectively demonstrated proven , like existence god cannot yes , means risk subjective evidence manufactured brain chemicals hand , could venture say risk everything appear objectively know really manufactured brain chemicals suspect answer request evidence demonstration existence spirits spiritual needs , assertion things objectively said , christian side agnosticism , pushed fence subjective evidence \( , raised christian , case simply accepting indoctrinated \) seanna watson bell northern research , pray end living , \( seanna bnr ca \) ottawa , ontario , canada philosophies creeds , god find people busy opinion , opinions \? oh opinions planting trees sowing seeds , 're bnr 's , 're mine knew 'd left somewhere fred kaan
nichael bbn com \( nichael cramer \) subject deuterocanonicals , esp sirach reply ncramer bbn com organization bbn , interzone office lines 35 poram ihlpb att com writes counts , apocrapha falls short glory god quote unger 's bible dictionary apocrapha 1 abound historical geographical inaccuracies anachronisms 2 teach doctrines false foster practices variance sacred scripture 3 resort literary types display subject matter styling keeping sacred scripture 4 lack distinctive elements give genuine scripture divine character , prophetic power poetic religious feeling first , point obvious 4 would clearly highly subjective issue , one would hard pressed point another book ot \( matter nt \) n't , issues , way , fail one first three tests second , one factor deuterocanonicals share composition n't recall exact dating books , written latest canonical books \( e daniel \) furthermore , may may originally written greek , clearly deeply hellenistic nature features probably figured heavily rejection books various canons may strict uniformly applicable criteria judge books , , discussions shown , think one thing see purely objective standards determining nichael \( \( \( get smile icon predicate \) \) \( sys honk \) \)
nichael bbn com \( nichael cramer \) subject long text acts variants nt text reply ncramer bbn com organization bbn , interzone office lines 80 moderator posted week ago never showed \( locally \) net already actually posted , please fill free flush copy n db7n andrew cmu edu \( andrew byler \) anyone english translation long recension acts apostles found \? 1 english translation found acts apostles , translated codex bezae , introduction origin importance , j wilson \( london , 1923 \) 2 another work might useful acts apostles , critical edition introduction notes selected passages , albert c clark \( oxford , 1933 reprinted 1970 \) \( edition text acts makes assumption text codex bezae authentic n't know actually contains english translation \) 3 another useful discusses many variants detail theological tendency codex bezae acts , j epp \( cambridge , 1966 \) 4 recent reference found edition french early '80s \( supply reference anyone 's interested \) 5 , many works going difficult find 're interested examining differences long recension excellent \( easily obtainable \) discussion found textual commentary greek nt , bruce metzger \( united bible society , 1971 \) metzger 's book serves companion volume ubs 3rd edition greek nt contains discussion reasoning went behind decisions 1440 variant readings included furthermore , notes addition 600 readings included \( majority occur acts \) particular introduction section acts metzger writes attempt made set reader less full report \( english translation \) several additions modifications attested western witnesses since many corresponding apparatus text volume , care taken supply adequate evidence supports divergent readings \( p 272 \) understand one early , vaticanus version acts would interesting know differences long short forms 6 copies text acts \( including ones vaticanus \) pretty closely shorter \( alexandrian \) version longer version refer usually called western version main witness codex bezae \( rather fragmentary sources \) 7 far size , difference clark 's edition \( mentioned \) book acts contains 19 , 983 words whereas text edited \( typical alexandrian text \) contains 18 , 401 words e difference 8 1 2 8 answer obvious questions , , major revelations longer text major omissions shorter text main difference seems expansion detail western text \( , prefer alexandrian \) western text seems given detail interesting specific cases , probably place go detail 9 discussion years versions authentic hot heavy anything approaching modern consensus \( \) neither text represents purely authentic version , \( ii \) variant reading examined merits however , \( iii \) variant alexandrian text better often n
aaronc athena mit edu \( aaron bryce cardenas \) subject jacob esau organization massachusetts institute technology lines 15 jek cu nih gov writes wrote apostle paul , romans 9 , speaks god choosing jacob esau , adds result anything either child done , since born yet 's understanding romans 9 13 written , jacob loved , esau hated refers two individuals , rather offspring , tribe jacob tribe esau see , example fact , scan ot , find similar references two tribes aaron cardenas aaronc athena mit edu
mail server mozart cc iup edu \( mserv \) subject ten commandments ten discourses \? lines 135 course discussing sabbath folks , came across something completely new , thought 'd offer comment keep brief possible , let state observation statement , whoever wants comment basically , think 've observed phrase ten commandments , used moses , reference ex 20 1 17 , rather reference ten distinct discourses ex 20 1 ex 31 18 , phrase ten commandments accurately translated ten discourses , passage call ten commandments really first i'm completely convinced true , purposes discussion , let argue though sure arguments supporting idea 1 \) n't really ten commandments ex 20 1 17 order get 10 commandments , get two verses 3 6 , verses support division worshipping gods , verse 3 commands gods , verse 5 commands worship idols mentioned verse 4 ca n't violate verses 5 6 without violating verse 3 , indicating whole passage one command , leaving us nine commandments could go length , 'll stop summary 2 \) ten speeches ex 20 1 \( beginning traditional ten commandments \) ex 31 18 \( god actually gives moses two tablets ten commandments discourses written \) break ten follows 20 1 17 20 22 26 21 1 23 33 25 1 30 10 30 11 16 30 17 21 30 22 33 30 34 38 31 1 11 31 12 18 cases , passages begins variation phrase , lord spoke moses , saying exception ex 21 1 , begins ordinances set 3 \) word translated commandments phrase ten commandments n't really word commandment , word speech , 's word often used longer discourses rather individual statements instance , combined word \( day \) , word translated chronicles phrases rest acts , written chronicles x \? word commandment freely used throughout books moses , perhaps significant moses spoke ten x 's , appears avoided word commandment chosen instead word associated discourses longer single command 4 \) god tells moses going give stone tablets law commandments \( ex 24 12 \) , yet give moses tablets finished ten discourses mount sinai ten commandments ex 20 1 17 , immediately clear god would wait several days nine discourses giving tablets moses hand , ten discourses written tablets , makes perfect sense god would give moses tablets finished delivering ten discourses 5 \) moses get tablets , found tablets written sides \( ex 32 15 \) ten commandments first 17 verses ex 20 , god would written large letters ! could n't , course , seem likely reference two tablets containing ten discourses written normal sized letters 6 \) ii cor 3 , paul seems specifically single commandments written stone ministry death , fading away , ministry condemnation possible exception commandment sabbath , difficult see paul would refer commands ex 20 1 17 temporary , fading away type commandments less problem stone tablets happen included commandments ex 20 ex 31 arguments idea main argument idea , aside fact contradicts long standing tradition , dt 5 22 , moses says , quoting commands ex 20 1 17 , words lord spoke added wrote two tablets stone gave appears identify words quoted contents two stone tablets first impression , anyway however , thought , noted great deal hinges understand phrase words moses meant words related spoken god etc , would mean traditional ten commandments stone tablets , however , moses making parenthetical comment words telling spoken god etc 's quite different note dt 5 account , moses tells given stone tablets telling people asking moses represent god , whereas exodus account , people asked moses first second discourses , several days god gave moses stone tablets idea remarks dt 5 intended parenthetical remark , rather strictly chronological account god wrote , point stopped adding tablets summary things considered , find somewhat likely nine commands ex 20 really first moses regarded ten discourses god n't know anybody ever espoused idea 's brand new , lean towards accepting , would interested hearing comments criticisms anyone may care offer mark
petch gvg47 gvg tek com \( chuck \) subject daily verse lines 3 set heart eat drink worry luke 12 29
cas org \( brooks \) subject mormon temples reply cas org organization chemical abstracts service lines 18 article athos rutgers edu , dhammers pacific \? \( david hammerslag \) writes paragraph brought mind question \( mormons \) reconcile idea eternal marriage christ 's statement ressurection people neither marry given marriage \( luke , chapt 20 \) \? 's whole point , david spirits separated bodies living spirit world , cannot undergo ordinance marriage , cannot baptized , since physical body baptized perform ordinances , behalf thanks asking brooks brooks \( cas org \) wise say \? columbus , oh way , id jacob 6 12 opinions necessarily reflect employer
whitsebd nextwork rose hulman edu \( bryan whitsell \) subject homosexuals reply whitsebd nextwork rose hulman edu organization news service rose hulman lines 17 several replies post said get know christian homosexuals judging maintain judging saying homosexuality wrong would like look responces post make general evaluation people responded side christianity homosexuality compatible \( homosexuals know many e mail responces \) n't normally make assumptions groups people , since asked many opposing point far people made wild assumptions , put n't resources others , even reverted name calling n't think representation homosexual christians show christ 's love , bryan
whitsebd nextwork rose hulman edu \( bryan whitsell \) subject homosexuality reply whitsebd nextwork rose hulman edu organization news service rose hulman lines 19 recently e mail mentioned \( technically , messengers n't even human ca n't case homosexuality even rape \) jude reference sodom also meaningful context lust flesh angels , application homosexual behavior general , position gay christians specious angels flesh \? feel saying lust men , flesh \( world \) \? n't heard much verse christ 's love , bryan
jek cu nih gov subject hell lines 41 20 april , stephen mcintyre writes would rather spend eternity hell beside god heaven knowing even one man would spend eternal life scorched wrongdoings stephen , suspect use word hell , different concepts mind encounter references heaven terms golden streets , trust suppose \( suspect christians supposing \) golden streets taken literally , still less concept heaven suppose fires hell \? read novel atlas shrugged \? remember last description james , sitting floor beside ferris \? comes close description meant hell circles image fire often used connection , two reasons occur first reason conveys idea hell something rational would earnestly wish avoid \( rational would wish avoid fate james latter image meaningful read atlas shrugged , smaller audience played matches \) second reason history hebrew word gehenna , one words translated hell new testament refers valley , outside jerusalem early days , place canaanites offered human sacrifices \( burned alive \) later , made garbage refuse dump , fires burned continually , consuming trash city jerusalem cast gehenna burn gehenna thus became metaphor rejected discarded worthless lest think identifying hell fate james private fancy , commend book great divorce , c lewis discusses heaven \( \) hell \( flames \) shorter atlas shrugged , available bookstores libraries , james kiefer
mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) subject hate sin organization ai programs , university georgia , athens lines 26 interesting point bible n't say hate sin tells avoid sin , resist sin , even , necessary , denounce sin hate michael covington , associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu university georgia phone 706 542 0358 athens , georgia 30602 7415 u amateur radio n4tmi following passages talk god people god approves hating sin action ps 119 113 also talks hating sinner believe passages would talk hating someone evil , n't turn search \( word hate kjv , though 've passage nrsv \) ps 97 10 , 101 3 , 105 25 , 119 104 , 113 , 128 , 163 , , 139 21 22 6 16 , 8 13 isa 61 8 amos 5 15 8 17 rev 2 6 clh
agr00 ccc amdahl com \( anthony g rose \) subject satan kicked heaven biblical \? reply agr00 juts ccc amdahl com \( anthony g rose \) organization amdahl corporation , sunnyvale ca lines 8 response request biblical reference satan fallen angel clh isaiah 14 12 common reading passage 's referring king babylon , using language ironically , claims clh
agr00 ccc amdahl com \( anthony g rose \) subject christianity crisis hank hanegraaff reply agr00 amail amdahl com organization amdahl corporation , sunnyvale ca lines 45 christianity crisis hank hanegraaff controversy sake controversy sin controversy sake truth divine command dr walter martin dr walter martin personally selected hank hanegraaff succeed president christian research institute largest evangelical counter cult organization world , careful treatment explosive subject , hanegraaff documents examines beliefs word faith movement clearly compromises confuse essentials historic christian faith first time ever , large influential movement legitimately labeled book , hanegraaff discusses leaders word faith movement e w kenyon twelve apostles another gospel \( gal 1 6 9 \) \( kenneth e hagin , kenneth copeland , benny hinn , frederick k c price , john , robert , marilyn , paul \( david \) cho , charles , jerry , morris , paul jan \) book available harvest house publishers christian book stores soon order hard back copy cri 14 99 calling 1 800 443 9797 avoid retail mark ups christian research journal , quarterly publication cri article 's recent issue released called , 's wrong word faith movement \? good article inform teachers , tide book arrives interested receiving journal , order cri number 14 year best source accurate well researched info today 're going discussion book \( third posting far \) , 'd like people say enough contents people decide whether 's worth reading clh
world std com \( paul c duggan \) subject baptism requires faith organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 118 article may 12 04 26 21 1993 athos rutgers edu aaronc athena mit edu \( aaron bryce cardenas \) writes colossians 2 11 12 also circumcised , putting sinful nature , circumcision done christ , buried baptism raised faith power god , raised dead baptism , raised new life christ \( romans 6 4 \) personal faith power god parent 's faith cannot infants faith \? let 's look bible say n't think issue whether infants faith relevant certainly , example john proves find translation col 2 odd terms circumcision christ , kjv rsv put terms christ 's , union participate putting body sins flesh also , perhaps cor 2 12 dividing act burial baptism , independant faith , experience rising christ faith says faith \? interpretation advantage explaining baptized , benefit , serves put kingdom nonetheless like israelites \( , children included \) baptized cloud sea , advantage add baptism faith obedience baptism faith , done strictly speaking basis faith parent , promise god grace , grace kingdom , disguise later apostacy romans 10 16 17 israelites accepted good news isaiah says , 'lord , believed message \? ' consequently , faith comes hearing message , message heard word christ receive god 's gift faith us hear message gospel faith possible response hearing god 's word preached kids yet spiritually , intellectually , emotionally mature enough respond god 's word hence cannot faith therefore cannot raised baptism new life teach child pray lord 's prayer \? expect steal \? faith appropriate condition new covenant , shall longer say know lord , shall know least unto greatest heb 8 11 read ezekiel 18 , see god n't hold us guilty anyone else 's sins original guilt adam also according ezekiel 18 , god hold innocent anyone basis anyone elses thus jesus could federal head adam , 's ezekiel talking shall make ezekiel 18 contradict second well \? ezekiel 18 31 32 rid offenses , get new heart new spirit die , house israel \? take pleasure death anyone , declares sovereign lord repent live ! way please god repent get new heart spirit kids cannot acts 2 38 39 says repent baptized , receive new spirit , holy spirit shall live ezekiel 36 25 26 indicates new heart given god , context water baptism action god new order , question personal faith romans 5 12 therefore , sin entered world one man , death sin , way death came men , sinned sin death entered world first man sinned death came man man sinned note 's good read romans 5 12 21 verses easier misunderstand others , read context see saying basically thing let 's look one death came sin personal death , dead state \( sin \) covenant death , adam , federal head gave dominion devil death psalm 51 5 surely sinful birth , sinful time mother conceived whole psalm wonderful example humble god repentance sinning david man god 's heart wrote psalm committing murdering husband david saying ca n't remember time n't sinful humbling god confessing sinfulness saying sinful birth hyperbole bible , inspired god , n't limited literal , also uses figures speech jesus \( john 16 25 \) another example hyperbole , see luke 14 26 psalm 's language , hyperbolic , one necessarily imply hyperbolic language psalm v 5 likely refering symbolized ot laws \( make intercourse acts god \) whole psalm language ot ritual \( , cleansing , burnt offering , etc \) david 's sin included element , cleanse symbolized ot ritual truth sin passed 's organ generation cut 's brith unclean death , babies born dead , needed washed newness life , baptism today paul duggan
world std com \( paul c duggan \) subject hate sin organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 30 article may 12 04 27 07 1993 athos rutgers edu scott prism gatech edu \( scott holt \) writes hate begets hate , never love consider sin 'll leave unnamed since n't want digress argument whether something sin lets apply hate sin philosophy see happens truly hate sin , see , stronger hatred become eventually hate becomes strong become disgusted sinner eventually come hate sinner though assert , n't see necessarily case ca n't hate stay , \? says get disgusted start hating sinner admit happens , think say always hate perfect hatred \? summary law , christ commands us love god love neighbors n't say anything hate fact , anything , commands us save criticisms , christians supposed deal sin others \? suppose one way deal sin \( either others \) prayer certainly love even enemies amos 5 15 says hate evil love good ca n't contradict christ 's teaching think tie hate love emotional attitude , really considered objectively surely n't fly rage every sin see , hate \? paul duggan
jek cu nih gov subject crowd pilate lines 24 post 29 april \( \? \) , considering disasters instances judgements god history , andy byler spoke desire jerusalem mob crucified lord blood upon us vera noyes replied \( 02 may \) , comment fear heavily flamed invite \( interested parties well \) read comments verse scripture obtain , send message get choosing listserv asuacad bitnet listserv asuvm inre asu edu putting briefly , think significance demands jerusalem crowd usually greatly misunderstood , christian anti christian readers , james kiefer send email address , contents message single line containing get command subject line apparently ignored , least asuvm clh
jek cu nih gov subject trinity lines 27 james green writes ca n't someone describe someone 's trinity simple sentences common meaning \? offer four attempts first essay \( largely attempts two three \) , obtainable sending message get trinity analogy listserv asuacad bitnet listserv asuvm inre asu edu second couple books dorothy l sayers play called zeal thy house , non fiction book called mind maker play found book four sacred plays , also various collections , including one called religious drama \( meridian books \) one called best plays 1937 third book mere christianity c lewis , particularly last section , called beyond personality fourth book called theology beginners , roman catholic writer frank say find 's approach altogether satisfying , know persons whose minds respect , james kiefer
agr00 ccc amdahl com \( anthony g rose \) subject christianity crisis hank hanegraaff reply agr00 juts ccc amdahl com \( anthony g rose \) organization amdahl corporation , sunnyvale ca lines 22 article may 12 04 27 23 1993 athos rutgers edu af664 yfn ysu edu \( frank decenso , jr \) writes anyone read important book \? , feelings \? frank one wished contend , could answer one time thousand job 9 3 hi frank 've read couple times think excellent needed book time suggest every christian read according hank , printed 15 times harvest house usually prints first printing , still sold first week 's second printing , christian book stores waiting lists order directly cri 1 800 443 9797 tony
aaron binah cc brandeis edu \( scott aaron \) subject hate sin reply aaron binah cc brandeis edu organization brandeis university lines 46 article may 12 04 27 07 1993 athos rutgers edu , scott prism gatech edu \( scott holt \) writes hate sin love sinner 've heard quite bit recently , often context discussions christianity homosexuality context really n't important question whether statement consistent christianity would think hate begets hate , never love consider sin 'll leave unnamed since n't want digress argument whether something sin lets apply hate sin philosophy see happens truly hate sin , see , stronger hatred become eventually hate becomes strong become disgusted sinner eventually come hate sinner addition , hatred sin often causes us say things taken personally sinner \( often even believe sin \) enough , sinner begins hate us \( certainly n't love us constant criticism behavior \) hate builds drives people away god certainly cannot good way build love n't agree , speak good friend whose lifestyle sinful hate things others \? yes hate \? absolutely fact , tells repeatedly best friend world care much despite fact hate lives life 's easy fall progression describe 've felt friend important part christianity 've overlooked makes possible love sin hate sinner look someone else 's life sin , look disgusted see see others , probably self righteousness contradictory christianity makes progression describe happen christian truthfully quote paul say , man ! romans 7 24 \( nasb \) , christian able love sinner hate sin attitude said , thank thee like men luke 18 11 \( nasb \) , hate scott brandeis god demonstrates lord bless , keep love us , lord make face shine , yet sinners , gracious christ died us lord lift countenance , give peace romans 5 8 nasb numbers 6 24 26 nasb
mdw33310 uxa cso uiuc edu \( michael walker \) subject new thought deuterocanonicals organization university illinois urbana lines 29 2 likely st john \( whomever \) wrote book revelation considered scripture thing holding hands ! revelation almost certainly written reign \( sp \? \) , 80 96 thus could argues sin accept 2 peter scripture , since added book composition revelation , told add nothing okay , went back looked sure enough , hunch right 2 peter likely written 100 120 revelation almost certainly written 80 96 odds gospel john written around 90 best dates luke acts around 80 , maybe later , information new american bible , best translation 've come across regards giving complete historical information book mike \) course folks 're arguing almost certainly accept 2 peter pseudonymous case 'd date far earlier clh
aidler sol uvic ca \( e alan idler \) subject new thought deuterocanonicals organization university victoria lines 26 mdw33310 uxa cso uiuc edu \( michael walker \) writes often times \( recently list last days \) 've heard passage revelation whoever adds sacred words book whoever removes words book feel ridiculous two reasons 2 good reasons deleted ai one takes translation book rev 18 22 \( somewhere around \) mean scripture , us likely holding something violation command 's even worse ye shall add unto word command , neither shall ye diminish \( deut 4 2 \) shall rip every page bibles beginning joshua revelation \? idler
jek cu nih gov subject goedel ontological argument lines 16 fred gilham asks whether true goedel wrote version ontological argument existence god yes , true someone published rebuttal pointing certain flaws argument , recently professor c anthony anderson , philosophy department university minnesota , written revised version argument , perhaps free flaws , rate free flaws complained original version sent copy , still \( saw last week looking something else \) , surfaces supply particulars guess published \( already \) journal symbolic logic , james kiefer
mmh dcs qmw ac uk \( matthew huntbach \) subject definition christianity \? organization computer science dept , qmw , university london , uk lines 29 article may 12 04 28 31 1993 9972 athos rutgers edu autry magellan stlouis sgi com \( larry autry \) writes enrolled history christianity college st louis teacher class consider closed minded subject definition christianity definition tied directly trinity catholic church 's definition belief jesus christ sufficient call one 's self christian call trinity catholic church 's definition precisely result first christians getting together trying find acceptable answer question christian \? ca n't see objecting someone saying historians beliefs would agree , calling closed minded bigot \? really ought say mean belief jesus christ wording sufficient describe christian muslims believe jesus christ although believe prophet incarnated son god followers eastern religions might quite happy say jesus incarnation god along large numbers historical mythical figures perhaps ought rephrase question say precisely traditional definitions christian , handed universal church , object regard unnecessary christian matthew huntbach
tony scotty dccs upenn edu \( anthony \) subject dispose old blessed palms \? organization university pennsylvania lines 10 proper way dispose old blessed palms \? bunch holding onto addition , mom giving 's used give uncle would burn \( leave ashes ground \) \? could bury \? could add compost bin \? thanks advance tony
rexlex fnal fnal gov subject arsenokoitai 2 bailey boswell organization fnal ad net lines 184 continuing dr deyoung 's article survey new interpretations arsenokoitai bailey bailey perhaps new meaning arsenokoitai takes term cor 6 9 males actively engage homosexual acts , contrast malakoi \( effeminate \) , engage passively acts 4 however , insists paul knew nothing inversion inherited trait , inherent condition due psychological causes , consequently regards homosexual practice evidence perversion \( 38 \) hence bailey limits term 's reference paul 's works acts alone modern translations term homosexuals bailey wants distinguish homosexual condition \( morally neutral \) homosexual practices italics source paul precise terminology moffatt 's translation sodomites best represents paul 's meaning bailey 's judgment \( 39 \) bailey clearly denies homosexual condition known biblical writers j boswell influential study arsenokoitai among contemporary authors john boswell 5 whereas usual translation 6 term gives either explicitly implicitly active sense , boswell gives passive sense extended discussion term \( 341 53 \) , cites linguistic evidence common sense support conclusion word means male sexual agents , e active male prostitutes argument arseno part word , object koitai refers base sexual activity hence term , according boswell , designates male sexual person male prostitute acknowledges , however , interpret composite term active , meaning sleep , make bed , men boswell bases interpretation linguistics historical setting argues compounds , \( child learner \) , subject , others , \( child passes \) , neither subject object simply modifier without verbal significance point compound must individually analyzed meaning directly , maintains compounds attic form employ objectively hellenistic arseno use adjective \( 343 \) yet admits exceptions distinction regarding boswell next appeals latin time , namely male prostitutes men women objects greek arsenokoitai equivalent latin corresponding passive would \( one lies beside \) , boswell affirms claims arsenokoitai explicit word available paul male prostitute , since paul 's time attic words \( \) \( one committing fornication \) , found also lxx , adopted refer men resorted female prostitutes simply committed fornication 7 absence term pagan writers herodotus , plato , aristotle , plutarch , jewish writers philo josephus , boswell finds even convincing evidence affirmation arsenokoitai even time paul \( 346 \) 8 also demonstrates absence pseudo , , subsequently finds lacking discussions homosexual relation \( 346 \) 9 among christian sources greek , including , , justin martyr , eusebius , 10 clement alexandria , gregory , john chrysostom chrysostom singled omission final proof word could mean homosexuality 11 boswell next appeals omission texts cor tim discussions homosexuality among latin church fathers \( 348 \) 12 cited tertullian , , , augustine last named uses latin writers include , , felix term also lacking state church legislation sixth century term became confused applied variety sexual activities child molesting anal intercourse husband wife \( 353 \) surveyed sources , boswell concludes , reason believe either arsenokoitai malakoi homosexuality time paul centuries thereafter , every reason suppose , whatever came mean , christian opinion morality homosexual acts \( 353 \) clear throughout boswell defines arsenokoitai refer male prostitutes even goes far conclude paul would probably disapprove gay inclination , gay relationships , enduring love persons gender , sex \( 112 , 166 17 \) 4 bailey , homosexuality western christian tradition \( london 1975 \) 38 5 j boswell , christianity , social tolerance homosexuality \( chicago 1980 \) 6 several tim 1 10 kjv , defile mankind asv , abusers men nasb , homosexuals rsv , nkjv , nrsv , sodomites neb , niv , perverts gnb , sexual perverts cor 6 9 occur kjv , abusers mankind asv , abusers men nasb , rsv , homosexuals nkjv , sodomites neb , homosexual rsv neb derive translation two greek words , malakoi arsenokoitai homosexual perverts nrsv two words male prostitutes text , sodomites footnote active idea among commentators well primary assumption 7 boswell , christianity 344 yet word available paul male prostitute , occur literature prior paul \( thesaurus using confirms \) paul coined term , would prior history , discussion lack usage contemporary non christian christian literature meaningless 8 would expected paul coined word 9 key phrase apparently , boswell admits later \( 350 n 42 \) occurs quotes paul discussion context hence implication cannot tell writer \( polycarp philippian 5 3 ad 1 2 , 2 14 2 282 cyril alexandria 14 2 13 \) meant yet polycarp , apostle died 155 , argues context young men pure uses three terms , malakoi , arsenokoitai paul 's list least makes boswell 's use subjective apparently clement alexandria 3 11 3 18 also belong 10 yet eusebius uses 1 11 either boswell misrepresenting facts chrysostom 's use arsenokoitai form \( 20 \) vice lists cor 6 tim 1 , begging question denying word mean homosexual chrysostom uses yet meaning arsenokoitai goal study , whether lists discussions boswell later admits \( 351 \) chrysostom uses almost form commentary cor although boswell suggests passage strange , may paul seeking make refinement arsenokoitai 12 apparently jerome significant omission , since renders arsenokoitai , corresponding almost exactly greek \( 348 n 36 \) footnotes 5 bailey , homosexuality western christian tradition \( london 1975 \) 38 6 j boswell , christianity , social tolerance homosexuality \( chicago 1980 \) several tim 1 10 kjv , defile mankind asv , abusers men nasb , homosexuals rsv , nkjv , nrsv , sodomites neb , niv , perverts gnb , sexual perverts cor 6 9 occur kjv , abusers mankind asv , abusers men nasb , rsv , homosexuals nkjv , sodomites neb , homosexual rsv neb derive translation two greek words , malakoi arsenokoitai homosexual perverts nrsv two words male prostitutes text , sodomites footnote active idea among commentators well primary assumption 7 boswell , christianity 344 yet word available paul male prostitute , occur literature prior paul \( thesaurus using confirms \) paul coined term , would prior history , discussion lack usage contemporary non christian christian literature meaningless 8 would expected paul coined word 9 key phrase apparently , boswell admits later \( 350 n 42 \) occurs quotes paul discussion context hence implication cannot tell writer \( polycarp philippian 5 3 ad 1 2 , 2 14 2 282 cyril alexandria 14 2 13 \) meant yet polycarp , apostle died 155 , argues context young men pure uses three terms , malakoi , arsenokoitai paul 's list least makes boswell 's use subjective apparently clement alexandria 3 11 3 18 also belong 10 yet eusebius uses 1 11 either boswell misrepresenting facts chrysostom 's use arsenokoitai form \( 20 \) vice lists cor 6 tim 1 , begging question denying word mean homosexual chrysostom uses yet meaning arsenokoitai goal study , whether lists discussions boswell later admits \( 351 \) chrysostom uses almost form commentary cor although boswell suggests passage strange , may paul seeking make refinement arsenokoitai 12 apparently jerome significant omission , since renders arsenokoitai , corresponding almost exactly greek \( 348 n 36 \) next r scroggs
maridai comm mot com \( marida ignacio \) subject bernadette dates organization trunking fixed lines 52 jek cu nih gov writes joe moore writes mary time appeared girl named bernadette lourdes referred immaculate conception since nine year old would way knowing doctrine , apparition deemed true sealed case doctrine bernadette 14 years old visions , 1858 , four years dogma officially proclaimed pope , james kiefer forgot exactly age remember clearly born family poverty education , whatsoever , age apparitions suffered asthma age family living prison cell sort ask several times apparitions name since confessor priest asked several instances , priest get answer since bernadette receive one time , several apparitions passed , lady finally said , immaculate conception , bernadette , happy repeated words mind forget told priest asking , told priest , priest shocked asked bernadette , know talking \? bernadette know exactly meant happy answer priest priest continued , remember know \? bernadette answered honestly repeat mind way priest priest knew dogma four years old bernadette know yet answer priest finally observed took proof authentic personal revelation lady bernadette \( note lady lourdes shrine spring water lady requested bernadette dig bare hands front pilgrims start little water flowed several years water flowing \) marida spreading god 's words actions mother teresa
petch gvg47 gvg tek com \( chuck \) subject daily verse king james compare previous version niv lines 4 unto shall dwell safely , shall quiet fear evil proverbs 1 33
af664 yfn ysu edu \( frank decenso , jr \) subject christianity crisis organization youngstown state youngstown free net lines 371 bit listserv christia zane writes bitnet \( zane \) newsgroups bit listserv christia subject christianity crisis date wed may 12 14 43 19 1993 frank , first , thanks great scripture verses pleasure read reply welcome , zane zane sure nothing say change mind would like ask book question really anything mean , caught word faith thing , read book 've rescued error pain result christian life \? reply \( 1 \) first became christian , entered word faith movement easy n't grounded word god sound doctrine visited christian book stores , cheapest books could find buy 50 1 00 books hagin others consequently , began receiving hagin 's monthly magazine \( still send \) , also copeland 's \( also , still sent \) n't read booklet jimmy called hyper faith new began realize teachings error started reading bible studying sure enough , jimmy right many points part experience , christians , particularly new christians , teachings heretical need bereans acts 17 11 check teachings scripture ! \( 2 \) brother law involved word faith cult area 's leader real good friends benny hinn rather going much detail , suffice say deceived , mistreated , fallen atheism i'm still praying \( phil 1 6 \) \( 3 \) assistant pastor church teach adult sunday school copeland 15 years thousands tapes faith teachers class recently , quoted several teachers' heretical statements surprise since , 've able talk length issues \( 4 \) leader women 's group church benny hinn recently , found good morning , holy spirit women church prompted quotes sunday school , well people church i'm well aware abuses heresies perpetrated movement urgency heart life warn people heresies heresies \? jesus became sin took nature devil , became one b jesus' death cross n't enough atone c jesus dragged hell death , beat abused satan demons , thus finishing atonement satan ruling jesus hell e jesus died spiritually , lost divinity , resurrection f gods heresies documentation provided teachings upon request zane \? preventing going joining word faith movement 'd contemplating joining long , 've read book , 've saved \? reply n't christianity crisis helped booklet mentioned much , much better tremendous documentation insights zane n't nice scriptural answer believe best un profitable christians engage type activity heresy hunting reply call heresy hunting \? hunting implies n't readily accessible available movement fastest growing movement christendom hagin sold 40 million books hinn sold books last couple years dobson combined fred price largest church terms seating capacity usa n't sound like much hunting needed scriptural expose doctrinal error gave verses given epistles written due error \( doctrinal , practical \) churches early church numerous councils expose error heresy 's new thing remember luther \? zane would like point though , historically hunt heretics often end causing bigger mess heretics un documented opinion reply \( 1 \) provide documentation , would appreciated \( 2 \) read ephesians 4 11 16 , esp vss 13 14 tell causes immaturity body eph 4 13 14 till come unity faith knowledge son god , perfect man , measure stature fullness christ longer children , tossed fro carried every wind doctrine , trickery men , cunning deceitful plotting , contrary popular opinion , n't caused exposing error 's caused error zane many probably give place seeing scriptures documenting spiritual development growth writers would suggest fiery paul letter galatians one loses sake love end reply scholars believe paul wrote 2 timothy last let 's examine admonitions tim ascertain become 2ti 1 13 15 hold fast pattern sound words heard , faith love christ jesus good thing committed , keep holy spirit us know , asia turned away , among 2ti 2 15 18 diligent present approved god , worker need ashamed , rightly dividing word truth shun profane idle , increase message spread like cancer hymenaeus sort , strayed concerning truth , saying resurrection already past overthrow faith 2ti 2 24 26 servant lord must quarrel gentle , able teach , patient , humility correcting opposition , god perhaps grant repentance , may know truth , may come senses escape snare devil , taken captive 2ti 3 6 9 sort households make captives gullible women loaded sins , led away various lusts , always learning never able come knowledge truth resisted moses , also resist truth men corrupt minds , disapproved concerning faith progress , folly manifest , also 2ti 3 12 17 yes , desire live godly christ jesus suffer persecution evil men grow worse worse , deceiving deceived must continue things learned assured , knowing learned , childhood known holy scriptures , able make wise salvation faith christ jesus scripture given inspiration god , profitable doctrine , , correction , instruction righteousness , man god may complete , thoroughly equipped every good work 2ti 4 2 5 preach word ! ready season season convince , rebuke , , teaching time come endure sound doctrine , according desires , ears , heap teachers turn ears away truth , turned aside things , endure , work evangelist , fulfill ministry 2ti 4 14 15 alexander much harm may lord repay according works also must beware , greatly resisted words zane picture paul one goes way destroy ministry wolves one teaches sheep , many tears , necessity absolutely allowing transformed wolves protect reply act 20 26 31 therefore testify day innocent blood men declare whole counsel god therefore take heed flock , among holy spirit made , shepherd church god purchased blood know , departure savage wolves come among , flock also among men rise , speaking perverse things , draw away disciples therefore watch , remember three years cease warn everyone night day tears zane warning paul , note never drops name wolf admit cries beard end abandoned everyone asia n't \? reply paul mentioned names 1 18 20 charge commit , son timothy , according prophecies previously made concerning , may wage good warfare , faith good conscience , rejected , concerning faith suffered , hymenaeus alexander , delivered satan may learn 2ti 1 15 know , asia turned away , among 2ti 2 16 18 shun profane idle , increase message spread like cancer hymenaeus sort , strayed concerning truth , saying resurrection already past overthrow faith 2ti 4 10 forsaken , loved present world , departed , titus 2ti 4 14 15 alexander much harm may lord repay according works also must beware , greatly resisted words john 1 9 10 wrote church , , loves among , receive us therefore , come , call mind deeds , us malicious words content , receive brethren , forbids wish , putting church jesus also singled teachings doctrines rev 2 14 16 things , hold doctrine , taught put stumbling block children israel , eat things sacrificed idols , commit sexual immorality thus also hold doctrine , thing hate , else come quickly fight sword mouth rev 2 20 23 nevertheless things , allow woman , calls , teach seduce servants commit sexual immorality eat things sacrificed idols gave time repent sexual immorality , repent indeed cast , commit adultery great tribulation , unless repent deeds kill children death , churches shall know searches minds hearts give one according works zane question , purposes write books build ministries faults deliberate otherwise others maybe would wander around desert eating locust honey , barely worldly goods stake , money made , reputations maintain would question motives conscious otherwise less reply wo n't comment deals motives others even bad motives , remember paul said phi 1 15 18 indeed preach christ even envy strife , also good former preach christ selfish ambition , sincerely , supposing add affliction chains latter love , knowing appointed defense gospel \? every way , whether pretense truth , christ preached rejoice , yes , rejoice zane want true admonitions scripture many list protecting flock wolves winds doctrines , suggest start allowing wolf program pasture nailed cross reply please explain zane secondly , suggest heresy hunting restricted fellowships strict scriptural sense local city church reply heresy propagated mass media , may needed go mass media exposure unfortunately , heresy taught copeland 's church hagin 's hinn 's price 's , radio , print , etc pastor church leader knows materials sheep feeding outside church 's imperative leadership made aware , also , let 's examine passage scripture eph 4 11 gave apostles , prophets , evangelists , pastors teachers , eph 4 12 saints work ministry , body christ , ministry gifts lord installs church one individual church , body christ paul apostle traveled message also teacher 4 17 reason sent timothy , beloved faithful son lord , remind ways christ , teach everywhere every church 7 17 god distributed one , lord called one , let walk ordain churches also 12 28 god appointed church first apostles , second prophets , third teachers , miracles , gifts , helps , administrations , varieties tongues eph 4 13 till come unity faith knowledge son god , perfect man , measure stature fullness christ notice five fold ministries going around till church unity faith knowledge son god perfect man , believe occur fully lord jesus returns \( see 13 9 12 \) god wants body continue maturity unity body \? eph 4 14 longer children , tossed fro carried every wind doctrine , trickery men , cunning deceitful plotting , 's clear false doctrine , integrated church trickery men causes \( 1 \) thing striving \( 2 \) spiritual immaturity church continues spiritual childhood christians tossed fro carried every wind doctrine five fold ministry , appear clear scriptural denominational boundaries \( pastors appear responsible individual flock \) , deal doctrines \( necessary \) struggle equip body believers called degree 1 3 4 beloved , diligent write concerning common salvation , found necessary write contend earnestly faith delivered saints certain men crept unnoticed , long ago marked condemnation , ungodly men , turn grace god deny lord god lord jesus christ zane 'll notice , scripture heresy hunters went church church area area , bad guys went good guy namely paul considered arch heretic reply heretics trying discredit paul preaching contrary taught ! zane let 's face , wolves reason reason let 's hope wolves become sheep , sheep , reply yes ! 2ti 2 24 26 servant lord must quarrel gentle , able teach , patient , humility correcting opposition , god perhaps grant repentance , may know truth , may come senses escape snare devil , taken captive amen ! frank one wished contend , could answer one time thousand job 9 3
dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu \( darius lecointe \) subject christianity holy things organization florida state university lines 19 ezek 22 26 god seems upset priests made difference holy profane brought mind sermon heard recently speaker said god 's second name begin referring , believe , use god 's holy name titles swear words also reminded experience moses burning bush god told take , place standing holy ground texts seem imply god 's people must treat holy things differently common things , make difference holy common things obvious questions makes something holy \? christians \( primarily \) supposed make difference holy common things \? \( e g god 's name , holy spirit , holy bible , etc \) darius
petch gvg47 gvg tek com \( chuck \) subject daily verse lines 3 whoever listens live safety ease , without fear harm proverbs 1 33
mdw33310 uxa cso uiuc edu \( michael walker \) subject capital punishment organization university illinois urbana lines 40 gt7122b prism gatech edu \( randal lee nicholas mandock \) writes regarding new draft universal catechism procuring common good society need could arise aggressor placed position cannot cause harm virtue , right obligation public authorities punish penalties , including death penalty , acknowledged degree means death penalty military operations sufficient keep peace , non violent provisions preferred proportion keeping final goal protection peace human dignity exactly ! ! read one sentence degree means death penalty military operations sufficient keep peace , non violent provisions preferred n't believe necessary us murder criminals keep peace church united states feels way , thus reason catholic church opposed every execution country recent memory clearly shown excerpt , church 's teaching capital punishment remains today always past total accord sentiment disagree use deadly force cases option justifiable justifiable \? stated explicitly new catechism , justifiable case necessary keep peace since apply country , logical conclusion \( based premises \) one must opposed form capital punishment america opinions mike walker univ illinois
faith world std com \( seth w \) subject homosexual issues christianity organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 34 article may 11 02 36 34 1993 athos rutgers edu mserv mozart cc iup edu \( mail server \) writes see verses clearly address issues , however , couple seem though require incredibly perverse interpretations order seen condemning homosexuality would someone care comment fact seems say fornicators inherit kingdom god \? apply homosexuals \? understand fornication sex outside marriage accurate definition \? thing sex marriage bible \? understanding always new testament blesses sexual intercourse husband wife , however , willing listen scriptural evidence contrary take things literally must also forbid women speaking church paul led holy spirit human could err find interesting christ never discussed issue homosexuality , certainly existed back serious transgression christ would condemned find disturbing modern church spends energy trying stamp something christ n't consider worth single word condemnation christ repeatedly warns us judgement n't risk judgement equal measure condemn people god judge walked earth \? love christ contagious ! many readers fact advocate women speaking church issue discussed past , i'm interested clh
cox lambda msfc nasa gov \( sherman cox \) subject hate sin organization nasa msfc lines 52 scott prism gatech edu \( scott holt \) writes hate sin love sinner 've heard quite bit recently , often context discussions christianity homosexuality context really n't important question whether statement consistent christianity would think hate begets hate , never love consider sin 'll leave unnamed since n't want digress argument whether something sin lets apply hate sin philosophy see happens truly hate sin , see , stronger hatred become eventually hate becomes strong become disgusted sinner eventually come hate sinner addition , hatred sin often causes us say assumption part proof one always degenerate hating sinner , hates sin reminded civil rights movement america true many individuals hated proponents racism also true many individuals hated segregation discrimination whole heart never hating individuals practiced dr king 's message love individual , loving individual would transform friend however , take away hatred segregation hatred injustice summary law , christ commands us love god love neighbors n't say anything hate fact , anything , commands us save criticisms , christians supposed deal sin others \? suppose one way deal sin \( either others \) prayer need ask god help us sin , help love love conquer sin hatred place best way love someone pray would ask , john baptist practice love criticized jewish leaders day \? jesus practice love threw temple \? must least sin must order fight also must ready call god call sin right name jesus loved everyone , called sin right name true love others guide every step walk , also true sometimes love god calls us stand truth competition law jungle cooperation law civilization eldridge sherman cox , ii uahcs2 cs uah edu
rex edu \( justin lee \) subject satan kicked heaven biblical \? organization health sciences center , university oklahoma lines 13 someone asked biblical support image satan fallen angel rev 12 7 9 enoch cited clh also verse luke \( \? \) says jesus saw satan fall heaven 's something like n't bible front would quote directly , 's pretty obvious reference satan 's expulsion justin believe reference luke 10 18 context passage makes possible jesus referring satan defeated jesus' mission , rather previous fall heaven clh
maureen scicom alphacdc com \( maureen \) subject ethical \? lines 82 following published may 15th rocky mountain news guess real ethical problems practices church understand baptism overriding factor also understand honest way proceed unfortunately , becoming typical congregations second coming perceived approach real element 'make happen style theology wonder trust lord fits equation \? draw parents' ire children church carnival springs told 'd killed bee stings n't submit religious rite dick foster rocky mountain news southern bureau colorado springs outraged parents say children church carnival without permission baptist minister children , young 8 years old parents , thought going carnival cornerstone baptist church , would big water fight , free balloons , guns candy may 1 carnival , however , children room religious instruction told baptized many cases , although families baptist faith church angered many parents , including , methodist mother twin 8 year old girls baptized without knowledge consent 'my going carnival feel 's false pretense , ' said daughters said minister told would killed bee stings baptized cornerstone church officials defended actions 'we take instructions word god god commanded us baptize converts one show one passage bible says parental permission required child baptized , ' said dan irwin , associate pastor cornerstone baptist church church officials tell parents children would baptized 'they n't ask , ' irwin said many parents also felt simply sending children carnival invitation children 's friends members cornerstone church police said officials broken laws baptizing children , indicated parents could pursue civil action n't behaviors condemn cults \? think issues complex newspaper account mentions first , i'm entirely sure parental consent absolutely required would extremely difficult , clear commandment obey parents older child insisted baptized without parents' consent , might willing however would serious step , would warrant much careful discussion problem find much parental consent nobody 's consent whether believe infant baptism , baptism supposed sign entry christian community n't commitment somebody , whether parent child , intent become part church , baptism appears lie furthermore , likely raise serious practical problems child baptist tradition \? normally reaches age decision , would expected make decision baptized already , church claiming baptist church get \? neither answer really good , 's robbed experience significant faith clh
balsamo stargl enet dec com \( antonio l balsamo \( save wails \) \) subject hate sin reply balsamo stargl enet dec com \( antonio l balsamo \( save wails \) \) organization digital equipment corporation lines 84 scott prism gatech edu \( scott holt \) subject hate sin date 12 may 93 08 27 08 gmt hate sin love sinner 've heard quite bit recently , question whether statement consistent christianity would think hate begets hate , never love questioning whether hating sin consistent christianity ask consider following scripture romans 12 9 let love without hypocrisy hate evil , cling good paul , inspiration holy spirit calling us hate \? would god call us something would eventually lead hating fellow man especially commands us opposite , love fellow man \? consider sin lets apply hate sin philosophy see happens truly hate sin , see , stronger hatred become eventually hate becomes strong become disgusted sinner eventually come hate sinner experience 've found hating anybody result hating sin may life sinner , find compassion person jesus , since bible teaches tempted every way , able compassion us tempted fall jesus example hate sin love sinner account woman caught adultery \( john 8 \) , jesus compassion woman also called leave life sin means love sinners hate sin means loving unconditionally , time calling leave sin addition , hatred sin often causes us say things taken personally sinner \( often even believe sin \) blame always laid feet christian seen guilty taking offense someone merely pointing sin calling repent christian call sin fact , believe loving thing person could done loved enough want spare consequence remaining sin enough , sinner begins hate us \( certainly n't love us constant criticism behavior \) hate builds drives people away god certainly cannot good way build love , n't think lay blame feet christian loved jesus loved sinners \( john 8 \) sinner hates us , done best extended perfect expression love rejected hate sin forget love sinner , indeed , , , sin summary law , christ commands us love god love neighbors n't say anything hate would like encourage word study hate new testament really think surprised fact , anything , commands us save criticisms criticism different calling sinner repent hope helps , christ , tony balsamo name antonio l balsamo company digital equipment corp shrewsbury , mass work \( 508 \) 841 2039 e mail balsamo stargl enet dec com
swf elsegundoca ncr com \( stan friesen \) subject definition christianity \? reply swf elsegundoca ncr com lines 20 article may 12 04 28 31 1993 9972 athos rutgers edu , autry magellan stlouis sgi com \( larry autry \) writes subject definition christianity definition tied directly trinity catholic church 's definition belief jesus christ sufficient call one 's self christian , common definition christianity \? basic definition use belief jesus god incarnate belief jesus crucified raised dead salvation acceptance jesus personal lord savior would include christian denominations , exclude sarima teradata com \( formerly tdatirv ! sarima \) stanley friesen elsegundoca ncr com
swf elsegundoca ncr com \( stan friesen \) subject immaculate conception reply swf elsegundoca ncr com lines 28 someone quoted following 've removed name 's clear name goes level quote clh holy mary , virgin invariably added , holy woman remains st , panacea heresies , 374 377 lord jesus would chosen born virgin judged would taint body lord , home eternal king , seed human intercourse pope st , letter , bishop , 392 basis examples would say joe moore wrong claiming augustine prime mover sin sex view quotes clearly equate sexuality , even within marriage relationship \( else would apply mary marriage joseph \) joe 's assignment reasoning behind concept perpetual virginity mary seem supported quotes sarima teradata com \( formerly tdatirv ! sarima \) stanley friesen elsegundoca ncr com
duncans phoenix princeton edu \( duncan eric smith \) subject verse divisions organization princeton university lines 5 i'm wondering anyone knows answer rather trivial question 've thinking process used divide bible verses believe jerome divided new testament , 've never seen discussion seems rather arbitrary , opposed , example , making sentence verse
allegra att com \( van kelly \) subject hate sin organization bell laboratories , murray hill , nj , usa lines 54 scott prism gatech edu \( scott holt \) writes hate sin love sinner 've heard quite bit recently , question whether statement consistent christianity would think hate begets hate , never love summary law , christ commands us love god love neighbors n't say anything hate fact , anything , commands us save criticisms scott dislike phrase hate sin , love sinner maybe definite article also part problem , since seems give us license fixate brother 's peculiar managed escape common grace , economic situation , culture outrage evil often cheap shot said , n't think scott adequately explored flip side coin , namely love righteousness , jesus blessed righteousness new testament , never enough behave well , one always actively desire work cause good sense , impossible remain evil victims , even well maybe mourn sin , love sinners catches idea slightly better hate , slightly , since grief usually implies passive powerless position balanced christian response needs grief , love , carefully measured , constructive anger jesus three european wwii whose response nazi atrocities devoid anger fare well role models , however much love grief sister new york christian years back , jack , long time professional friend benefactor , died aids , impoverished medical bills , family , abandoned surviving friends sister brother law end grief jack 's death , sister found quite targets anger callous , rigid self protective jack 's family , inertia response aids , , yes , even jack 's lapse morality eventually cost life jack shared last anger brought strong christian values , brief promiscuous sex long aids appeared \( imply moral judgement jack 's innate sexual orientation , n b \) maybe hardest job making anger constructive van kelly research att com
indyvax iupui edu subject knights columbus lines 9 ceremony knights almost secretive mafia phases \? dale indyvax iupui edu
faith world std com \( seth w \) subject homosexuality issues christianity organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 26 article may 13 02 31 16 1993 1569 geneva rutgers edu djohnson cs ucsd edu \( darin johnson \) writes ok , 's important gay christians \? sex , christianity \? christianity would hope would willing forgo sex completely , order avoid stumbling block others , avoid chance interpretation might wrong , etc \? , \? heterosexuals abstain time \( would nice protestant churches celibate orders show world sex important thing life \) biblical arguments homosexuality weak best , yet christ quite clear obligations poor christians demand celibacy homosexuals walk homeless people ignore pleas help \? christ quite clear obligations poor thought day mat 7 3 thou thy brother 's eye , beam thine eye \? wilt thou say thy brother , let pull thine eye , behold , beam thine eye \? love christ contagious mat 23 27 woe unto , scribes pharisees , hypocrites ! ye like unto , indeed appear beautiful outward , within full dead men 's bones ,
mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) subject homosexuality issues christianity organization ai programs , university georgia , athens lines 24 article may 13 02 30 39 1993 1545 geneva rutgers edu noye midway uchicago edu writes believe one important thing wrote old new testament passages cited know scientific evidence support homosexuality least partly inherent rather completely learned means certain extent great extent homosexuals cannot choose feel one basic concepts christian morality defective due original sin homosexuals , everybody thus entitled indulge whatever behavior bodies want us think need keep clear distinction homosexual behavior \( wrong \) homosexual orientation \( sin , merely misfortune \) please email replies respond public forum michael covington , associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu university georgia phone 706 542 0358 athens , georgia 30602 7415 u amateur radio n4tmi
mls panix com \( michael siemon \) subject eros lxx concluding note organization panix public access unix , nyc lines 58 might better directed r c bible study , begun reading , since earlier notes posted forum , conclude well week ago , managed find time consult septuagint concordance lxx text apparatus library , conclude look greek words love used christian background translation jewish scriptures principal result cluster uses verbal noun , meaning lover cluster occurs one might expect , image \( accusation \) israel spouse yhwh verses question 2 5 , 7 10 jeremiah 4 30 , 22 20 22 lamentations 1 19 ezekiel 16 33 , 36 37 23 5 , 9 22 seems originated usage , jeremiah ezekiel picked lamentations dependent , though likely written , jeremiah erotic meaning \( use , literally \) evident english , unless complement phrase like arts word lover going sexual relationship surprise , worthwhile see standard greek usage show translations hebrew ! \) interestingly , confirmation guess later usage avoided verb \( say \) , \( ask \) , error codex vaticanus \( normally , valuable witness \) form used completely absurd context 2 samuel 20 18 , meaning must say addition \( uses already mentioned proverbs \) , esther 2 17 uses verb natural application , kai e ho r king loved esther , rather interestingly , 1 samuel 19 2 supplies modest degree support gay appraisal relationship david jonathan kai io nathan e ton jonathan , saul 's son , loved david intensely i'm using io ta , n't yet reasonable ascii convention \( relevance gay issue anything implicit historical facts , quasi official translation hebrew text hellenistic period makes bones using erotic verb context given quite general usage erotic senses , need mean anything alone would mean , relationship , far translator goes ! \) michael l siemon say gods , sons mls panix com high , nevertheless shall die like men , fall mls ulysses att com like prince psalm 82 6 7
max hilbert cyprs rain com \( max webb \) subject earthquake prediction organization cypress semi , beaverton lines 55 article may 11 02 37 28 1993 athos rutgers edu dan ingres com \( rose arose \) writes believe everything heart may 3 , 1993 , city portland , oregon country united states america hit catastrophic disastrous earthquake , know come pass surprise , surprise sure n't lose sleep , live mistakes area costly dangerous , greatest fears area would following 4 god call prophet misrepresent god 's word , calling would lost forever god 's word would command people never listen fear words would false prophet bridges would burnt forever perhaps could repent saved , could never prophet god suppose someone said sure would return death , glory power , flying clouds host heaven , soon , within lifetimes standing 2000 years went without event also asserted , say , god 2 questions 1 \) one false prophecies talking \? 2 \) make speaker false prophet \? speak directly lord given something say , say , declare thus sayeth lord , 'd better know certain without shadow doubt correct spiritual condition relationship lord receive prophecy absolutely certain , , without tiniest shadow doubt possibility misled imaginations hope gaining recognition misled devil followers , occurred way know things , certain , without tiniest shadow doubt \? people thought also deluded \? us believe actually able check opinions check external reality assert beliefs entertained without evidence , even despite evidence special virtue \( ie faith \) luck result 's time christians give example honesty stands contrast backdrop falsehood say , thus sayeth lord , happens pray , prayer answered prayed right say 're christians , really mean dan want demonstrate christian honesty \? great start prophecy conclude speaker \? max
revdak netcom com \( andrew kille \) subject homosexuality issues christianity organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 28 darin johnson \( djohnson cs ucsd edu \) wrote ok , 's important gay christians \? sex , christianity \? christianity would hope would willing forgo sex completely , order avoid stumbling block others , avoid chance interpretation might wrong , etc \? , \? heterosexuals abstain time \( would nice protestant churches celibate orders show world sex important thing life \) difference straight members given choice , celibacy recognized gift , given gays told , condition acceptance , must celibate n't believe god gives forced choice relationship god expressing heterosexuality \( within context faithful relationship \) believe god gives forced choice gays sex christianity false dichotomy tell truth , gay churches remind lot henry viii starting church england order get divorce \( myth \) note denying gay christians christian part , gay churches remind blacks starting churches either allowed white churches , , best , special restrictions apply white members revdak netcom com
jane uh edu \( lee mug uh fellow \) subject catchy sayings reply jane uh edu organization university houston lines 297 quotes daily bread daily bread devotional help spiritual growth one spend ten fifteen minutes reading daily portion scriptures related short article brings scriptures alive applying today 's society ends saying bottom article collection sayings daily bread one many ministries services provided resources biblical communication free receive literature , write ask contact addresses listed write radio bible class copyright 1989 radio bible class , grand rapids , michigan 0001 canada box , windsor , ontario australia box 365 , ryde , 2112 nsw europe box 1 , , lancs , england africa box , , africa 2010 , , philippines box 288 , , metro sayings related scriptures december january february 89 90 issue daily bread god saves us , sins forgiven , forgotten , forever ! romans 5 1 11 life christ difficult without 's hopeless ecclesiastes 4 1 6 's sin cover eventually brings us psalm 19 7 14 're ready live 're ready die acts 21 1 14 trusting god 's power prevents panic isaiah 40 6 17 bible record man 's compete ruin sin god 's remedy christ 2 timothy 3 10 17 jesus change sinners finest saints ephesians 2 1 10 witness best witness lives acts 4 23 33 god came dwell man man might dwell god philippians 2 5 11 hurting person needs helping hand , accusing finger psalm 109 1 , 2 , 14 31 decide jesus determines destiny john 20 24 29 must go sinners expect sinners come savior romans 1 8 15 knowing god sees us brings conviction job 34 21 28 god 's cruel corrective hebrews 12 4 17 think 's good , give thanks god psalm 44 1 8 man 's greatest goal give glory god 1 peter 5 5 7 god loves every one us one us love romans 8 31 39 bread life satisfy man 's spiritual hunger john 6 28 41 conscience compass word god chart 1 timothy 4 1 5 salvation free , must receive isaiah 55 1 5 're spiritual could , 're spiritual 2 1 1 7 circumstances make man , reveal 's made matthew 1 18 25 make room jesus heart , make room heaven matthew 2 1 18 heaven 's came sing heaven 's king came save luke 2 1 20 god 's highest gift man 's deepest gratitude luke 2 21 38 serving lord investment pays eternal 1 peter 4 12 19 time lived lost psalm 39 4 13 measure love measure sacrifice 1 peter 4 7 11 god requires faithfulness god rewards luke 19 11 27 spend time determines spend eternity psalm 90 1 12 aim nothing , 're sure hit daniel 1 1 8 christian 's future bright promises god psalm 23 christ savior brings us peace god christ lord brings peace god colossians 1 13 20 sample word god never acquire much psalm 119 97 104 unless one drinks water life , thirst forever ! revelation 22 12 17 person sunday daniel 6 1 10 life long short , completeness depends lived 9 1 12 god loves let 's love 2 corinthians 13 's always soon quit genesis 37 12 28 character build world carry next matthew 7 24 29 god sends trials impair us improves us 2 corinthians 4 8 18 marriage either holy wedlock 2 corinthians 5 11 18 adopted god 's grace adapted god 's use galatians 6 1 10 children watching speak louder say proverbs 31 10 31 union christ basis unity among believers psalm 133 keep life would crowd christ heart romans 6 1 14 n't try bear tomorrow 's burdens today 's grace matthew 6 25 34 pray everything depends god work everything depends 2 kings 20 1 7 convictions nothing prejudices galatians 3 26 29 unless , understand augustine hebrews 11 1 6 christ way heaven paths doom 2 corinthians 4 1 7 many christians nothing , christians nothing ! john 4 31 38 bury seed god brings harvest isaiah 55 8 13 texture eternity time ecclesiastes 7 1 6 's know god use know 1 corinthians 8 best way avoid lying nothing needs concealed acts 5 1 11 god transforms trials blessing surrounding love grace 2 chronicles 20 1 4 , 20 30 confessing sins substitute forsaking psalm 51 1 10 shoot arrows envy others , would philippians 1 12 18 vision eternity n't know value time ephesians 5 8 17 god never abandoned god psalm 123 danger come near christian god nearer psalm 121 many man life trying lay fortune matthew 6 19 24 god 's grace infinite love expressing infinite goodness philippians 1 1 11 one way great things christ little things others romans 16 1 16 rob try others meant romans 12 1 8 n't pretend n't intend matthew 23 1 15 meeting god trials better getting psalm 42 sinners escape god 's judgement , god 's people must point way matthew 24 15 27 's sin get angry get angry sin john 2 13 22 prepare darkness learning pray light 1 samuel 2 1 10 christianity way certain things certain way things ephesians 5 1 7 better know truth beware believe lie care jeremiah 28 true servant live , , genesis 13 earthly good philippians 1 19 26 good marriage requires determination married good genesis 2 18 24 're looking something give life , look one gave life 1 corinthians 3 1 11 nothing left god , discover god enough psalm 46 god us inthe darkness surely us light 1 peter 1 1 9 people spend life complaint counter 1 thessalonians 5 12 22 creation , man say yes god genesis 9 8 17 end life know life never ends 8 10 15 one marks well fed soul well read bible 1 9 god gives us need , give need proverbs 14 20 31 's never early receive christ , moment could late luke 16 19 31 god 's grace keeps pace whatever face 2 corinthians 12 7 10 coming together beginning keeping together progress working together success 1 corinthians 12 12 27 give god burdens , gives us song psalm 57 thing fear , death fear certain emerson 1 corinthians 2 1 8 best way conquer enemy strategy love matthew 5 38 48 unaware one us everywhere christian stays mind christ , develops wonderful
mls panix com \( michael siemon \) subject homosexuality issues christianity organization panix public access internet unix , nyc lines 26 article may 12 04 27 47 1993 athos rutgers edu gchin ssf eng sun com writes let say life , death , resurrection jesus christ central christianity personally believe jesus christ died , part christian body believers still human n't know , homosexual heterosexual , strive follow jesus world dying needs hear jesus christ working together christians spread gospel \? let salute gary chin speaking gospel source life follow example , accept priorities christ commands us , matters law justice mercy good faith , brother sister christ , attend person humility charity may , end , agree siblings often n't least talk michael l siemon say gods , sons mls panix com high , nevertheless shall die like men , fall mls ulysses att com like prince psalm 82 6 7
whitsebd nextwork rose hulman edu \( bryan whitsell \) subject homosexuality reply whitsebd nextwork rose hulman edu organization news service rose hulman lines 11 going stop reading homosexuality posts , least , repeated seemingly personal attacks via post e mail \( mainly e mail \) anyone specific comment , suggestion , note contain name calling , etc would like read , send via e mail would like copy file mentioned moderator issue attempted get via ftp unable christ 's love , bryan
fortmann superbowl und ac za \( paul fortmann pg \) subject word perfect exe file needed organization university natal \( durban \) lines 14 friend mine managed get copy greek hebrew lexicon called word perfect \( word processing package wordperfect \) however , one wiped exe file , able restore distributors package south africa would appreciate , one could email file , least tell could get email address fortmann superbowl und ac za fortmann shrike und ac za many thanks , paul fortmann
aidler sol uvic ca \( e alan idler \) subject mormon temples organization university victoria lines 91 dhammers pacific \? \( david hammerslag \) writes paragraph brought mind question \( mormons \) reconcile idea eternal marriage christ 's statement ressurection people neither marry given marriage \( luke , chapt 20 \) \? short answer certain marriages recorded heaven long answer doctrine covenants section 132 , chapter discussing eternal marriage \( , yes , plural marriage \) , distinction priesthood marriages revealed children world marry , given marriage receive resurrection dead , neither marry , given marriage \( luke 20 34 35 \) jesus simply teaching marriages death part force death however , doctrine covenants continues describing eternal marriage c 132 19 , verily say unto , man marry wife word , law , new everlasting covenant , sealed unto holy spirit promise , anointed power keys priesthood shortened brevity ai shall full force world shall pass angels , gods , set , glory things , hath sealed upon heads , glory shall continuation seeds forever ever lord told peter whatsoever thou shalt bind earth shall bound heaven \( matt 16 19 \) doubt peter given power perform \? peter thought taught husbands wives heirs together grace life \( 1 peter 3 7 \) order obtain highest \( degree celestial glory \) , man must enter order priesthood \( c 131 2 \) man wife sealed truly become one flesh eternal increase \( \) completely father eternal companion \( maybe plural marriage conditions law \) participated creation equally concerned progress scriptural basis doctrine fact , mention mother one verse hymn written early history church father learned call thee father , thy spirit high , , key knowledge restored , knew parents single \? , thought makes reason stare ! truth reason truth eternal tells 've mother n't hear mother \? 1 father priesthood authority \( calling \) 2 n't \( necessarily \) mother would confusing worship 3 father wishes withhold name titles people degrade sacred things idler
jek cu nih gov subject james sirach lines 31 thursday 6 may 1993 , dave davis writes i'm leaning sirach directly referenced james job ruth nt verse 've seen would help mentioned chapter verse sirach james job 5 13 \( taketh wise \) seems quoted 1 corinthians 3 19 james 5 11 \( heard patience job \) , quote , implies james familiar story man named job exhibited exemplary patience possible story know found hebrew bible , rather another similar related story \( one problem direct quotes \) , matthew 1 5 \( begat ruth \) tells us matthew knew story woman named ruth married man called became ancestor david since ruth mentioned ot outside book ruth , seems likely matthew familiar book respected , thought ruth important enough one women mentioned genealogy references like prove nt writer considered ot source inspired inerrant canonical neither direct quotes , james kiefer
jek cu nih gov subject certainty lines 20 friday 7 may 1993 , marty helgesen wrote public revelation , basis catholic doctrine , ended death st john , last apostle nothing new added every often , pope declares departed christian heaven , may invoked public rites church understanding roman catholics believe declarations pope infallible see three possibilities 1 \) church received public revelation since death \( example \) joan arc 2 \) church given list death st john joan 's name 3 \) public revelation joan , roman catholics free doubt died state grace , even historical character , james kiefer
jek cu nih gov subject paul 's thorn side lines 49 joe moore writes paul repeatedly talks thorn side think refers lust , others pride , knows \? whatever thorn , apparently compatible christianity , yet make epistles less \? paul mentions thorn \( , actually sharp stake \) 2 corinthians 12 7 9 keep abundance revelations , thorn given flesh , messenger satan , harass , keep three times lord , leave said , grace sufficient , power made weakness explain , need moral problem one guess paul disorder eyes ordinarily dictated letters , added personal note signature end letter galatians , says , see , writing large letters hand , else , see long letter written hand former translation adopted , seems paul could write small script practiced writer , needed make letters larger , suggests eye problems , says galatians \( 4 13 15 \) , know bodily ailment preached gospel first although condition trial , scorn despise , received angel god bear witness , possible , would eyes given perhaps last line means simply , would done anything , withholding precious possessions \( eyes \) case , would expect wording like , needed possible sounds though bodily ailment connected eyes william barclay , volume acts , makes specific suggestion paul preached , preaching coastal areas asia minor malarial attack , doctor would advised leave low country head hills malaria might well given severe headaches blurred vision , james kiefer
plastic ecr mu oz au \( jason lee \) subject 25 words less organization computer science , university melbourne , australia lines 13 everywhere see hear christianity \( due nature \) witnessing , spreading gospel , etc want know \( anyone else \) become christian \? \( twenty five words less \) zeros ones take us peace plastic 1993 've enough discussions evidence recently would probably best respond via email clh
hall vice ico tek com \( hal f lillywhite \) subject mormon beliefs children born wedlock organization tektronix inc , beaverton , lines 24 article may 13 02 30 13 1993 geneva rutgers edu aaronc athena mit edu \( aaron bryce cardenas \) writes bruce webster writes indeed , lds doctrine goes one step cases holds parents responsible children 's sins failed bring properly \( cf c 68 25 28 hi bruce reconcile practice ezekiel 18 \? ezekiel 18 20 soul sins one die son share guilt father , father share guilt son righteousness righteous man credited , wickedness wicked charged actually c 68 25 28 parents held accountable sins specifically accountable failure teach children properly fail teach children stealing wrong responsible theft later indulge behavior similar instructions ezekiel given eze 3 18 ezekiel failed duty warn wicked , would wicked die sins lord would hold ezekiel responsible ! similarly parents responsible teach children right wrong suspect christians \( jews etc \) would agree parents responsibility
petch gvg47 gvg tek com \( chuck \) subject daily verse lines 12 let word christ dwell teach one another wisdom , sing psalms , hymns spiritual songs gratitude hearts god colossians 3 16 reminder verses new international version translation , faithfulness original hebrew greek may vary time time verse sounds little occasionally , compare another translation original texts , able god bless , chuck petch
mussack austin ibm com \( christopher mussack \) subject dreams body incidents lines 26 ever since kid learned tell dream used dreams fantasies working problems dreams done everything yell mom machine gunning zombies , mention myriad sexual fantasies deliberately done things would never real life understand need control ones thoughts , always felt dreams format free , morals , ethics , physical laws , \( though sometimes would wake go bathroom \) incorrect attitude \? rather weakening , could argue got certain things system experiencing dreams analyzing dream determine problem certain situation , e dream something contemplate see really bothers ca n't believe people n't seems silly attach moral significance dreams think entirely different body experiences , never contradictions welcome chris mussack
tedr athena cs uga edu \( ted kalivoda \) subject reason homophobia organization university georgia , athens lines 23 troubled long time needs dealt long article available individual newsgroup scripture homosexuality less homophobic see know gay lesbian people , engaging loving , voluntary erotic relations , n't even mentioned bible , tk frightens \( homophobic sense , intellectually \) , especially written someone homosexual church , interpretation different , homophobic ! ca n't right disagreement interpretation bible rejection homosexual acts tantamount homophobia ted kalivoda \( tedr athena cs uga edu \) university georgia , athens institute higher ed
cs indiana edu \( tony \) subject 2 peter 1 20 reply cs indiana edu organization computer science , indiana university lines 45 article may 13 02 28 01 1993 geneva rutgers edu jek cu nih gov writes one sense , statement another subject private interpretation reliable historians tell lost war , cannot simply interpret away wanted win facts facts go away want otherwise another sense , every statement subject private interpretation , depend brains decide means , whether sufficiently well attested merit assent even statement occurs inspired writing , still decide , using best judgement , whether fact inspired arrogance inescapable fact yes , two senses interpretation , certainly decision accept scripture inspired ultimately rests private opinion however , reading scripture , remember scriptures given god instruction , interpretation matters one god intended example , decide fact john baptist elijah teaches doctrine reincarnation , wrong intended interpretation prophets n't make teaching came god , must accept necessarily means private interpretations must take back seat meaning god intended convey certainly must rely best efforts determine meaning , fact make us recognize private interpretations cannot automatically accepted infallible interpretation god need test spirits see god holy spirit speaks , says thing wo n't tell passage means one thing tell means another two us come conflicting conclusions , ca n't completely right know interpretations reliable church whole agrees scripture means know doctrines trinity , dual nature christ , etc matters private interpretation reason peter goes talk false teachers preferred private interpretation god given teaching apostles private interpretation traditions men , soundly denounced scripture , started tony
access digex net \( paul robinson \) subject homosexuality immoral \( non religious argument \) organization company , silver spring , md usa lines 43 crossposted zillion groups n't intend carry entire discussion crossposted alt sex , particularly one whose motivation seems fun argument however thought readers might interested know discussion clh intend endeavor make argument homosexuality immoral practice lifestyle whatever call intend show basis rational declaration statement intend also show declaration made without religious justification morality , fact show standard made one atheist anyone wants join fun taking side , e make claim homosexuality immoral , , , morally valid practice , free think lot people n't believe one rational based morality without religion attached fun try figure , want try expose \( pun intended \) ideas see people 's see ideas standing i'm sure groups would interested discussion , posting announcement several , someone thinks appropriate groups , let know someone n't receive alt sex , let know 'll make exception usual policy set mailing list automatically distribute digest format anyone wants receive 'll use main forum exception usual policy normally charge , duration service available charge anyone address reachable internet bitnet decided start dialog realized much larger audience usenet internet smaller bbs networks give side time work screaming anger , begin monday , may 24 , give people want make response time identify anonymous postings acceptable , since people may wish identify also , someone else wants get side , free much interesting abortion debates !
adamsj gtewd mtv gtegsc com subject homosexuality issues christianity reply adamsj gtewd mtv gtegsc com organization gte govt systems , electronics def div lines 18 article may 13 02 29 39 1993 geneva rutgers edu , revdak netcom com \( andrew kille \) writes course whole issue one may satan trying convince us know god may god trying \( god peter \) teach us something n't know god shows , every nation anyone fears right acceptable \( acts 10 34 35 \) revdak netcom com fine , one points entire discussion \( conservative , reformed christians could start argument n't idea homosexuality ok fairly new century \? support viable viewpoint century \? n't know \) n't believe homosexuality acceptable scripture quotation n't work us jeff adams
sun075 ! gerry palo uunet uu net \( gerry palo \) subject christianity repeated lives lines 48 article may 12 04 26 40 1993 athos rutgers edu athmail1 cause way qub ac uk writes \( single angle brackets \) jesus talking apostles ask pharisees say messiah come elijah must first come jesus replies elijah come , recognize says apostles perceived ng john baptist seems clearly imply reincarnation popular belief judaism time , elijah would return \( taken heaven chariot actually die \) however jesus referring john baptist sense elijah john \( remember elijah didn`t die \) john similar prophet elijah question similarity jesus indication john passage matthew direct luke \( 1 17 \) reports angel gabriel john go christ power spirit elias , matthew 11 14 , jesus says john , care accept , elijah , come interesting jesus prepended words , care accept , say implications truth , namely rein , force , accept , jewish poster newsgroups jewish topics outlined esoteric , jewish teaching reincarnation karma , teaching little known among jews today , apparently widespread enough israel \( hinds feet high places \) told rabbi trying convert back 1940s missionary palestine thus may well small number jews knew , whereas large number people statement jesus john , greatest human personality new testament , guarded nevertheless quite direct , subject reincarnation , one way another , subject new testament , fate general human death last judgement occasional indications point popular belief elijah would come , popular belief , jesus confirms one place , never corrected expecting elijah example , thought jesus gerry palo \( 73237 2006 compuserve com \)
sun075 ! gerry palo uunet uu net \( gerry palo \) subject jacob esau \( reincarnation \) lines 58 article may 12 04 30 10 1993 athos rutgers edu jek cu nih gov writes gerry palo wrote nothing christianity excludes theory succession lives wrote apostle paul , romans 9 , speaks god choosing jacob esau , adds result anything either child done , since born yet clearly , paul believe previous lives , suppose readers believe previous lives , would make sense say , neither done anything good bad yet , since yet born paul 's statement asserts particular choice matter fulfillment past , fate man born blind \( john 9 \) question simplistic idea karma machine sole one 's destiny even eastern traditions , many , say , one knowledgeable poster pointed fact paul know believe reincarnation say anything one way another even john baptist , jesus says emphatically elijah \( matt 11 14 \) , appear aware , least point asked interesting denial question whether christ , prophet \( e isaiah \) , elijah , first case weak third would like add , important discuss different passages may point directly teaching repeated earth lives , one way another , really see important time subject revisited terms larger view christianity christian doctrine part , accept either reject central ideas christianity , christians , hold conviction kind separate treasure believe christianity important new understanding bring bear , vice versa , much central christianity takes entirely new dimensions meaning light repeated earth lives direct bearing many issues frequently discussed newsgroup particular said openly developed views repeated earth lives largely work rudolf steiner hold authority , whole picture christianity becomes clearer light ideas steiner indicated old consciousness nation necessarily fade away could renewed later times , time development christ idea first two millenia christ 's deed golgotha time , becomes important , received basic gospel salvation , understanding life human grow embrace significance idea discussions newsgroup , tried focus related directly possible scripture fundamental christian teaching tradition gerry palo \( 73237 2006 compuserve com \)
jek cu nih gov subject tongues \( read ! \) lines 8 persons interested tongues question invited peruse essay mine , obtainable sending message get tongues listserv asuacad bitnet listserv asuvm inre asu edu , james kiefer
eugene bigelow ebay sun com \( geno \) subject doctrine original sin reply eugene bigelow ebay sun com organization sun microsystems , inc lines 11 creps lateran ucs indiana edu \( stephen creps \) writes summarize , accused original poster saying something forbidden bible , proves ok e something cannot disproven , true rather seemed absolutely right reading , realized misunderstood said apologies question slavery , disagree slavery times slavery us may servants , would also expect paul little hint particular slave
hayesstw risc1 unisa ac za \( steve hayes \) subject two babylons organization university south africa lines 52 article may 13 02 30 57 1993 geneva rutgers edu mangoe cs umd edu \( charley wingate \) writes seeing two babylons brought , time respond , , say book junk nothing anti catholic tract sort published ever since protestants scholarship phony assertions spurious seen book , though several people quote support tendentious assertions making , become curious n't want hislop fellow , whoever may , heard arguments second hand , arguments seemed turn false etymology seemed derived hislop would interested knowing things first one claimed word church derived greek , therefore related worship n't know hislop source assertion , seem based false etymology second claimed relationship ishtar easter , seemed even far fetched wilder notions british israelites regarding latter , far able find , easter derived old english name april venerable bede mentioned associated goddess called , apart reference able find anything also seems term easter used english germans , example , also use term , germany english missionaries would interested evidence easter used people kind connection ancient anglo offshoots evidence might support claims appear derive theory hislop steve hayes , department missiology editorial department univ south africa , p box 392 , pretoria , 0001 south africa internet hayesstw risc1 unisa ac za fidonet 5 7101 20 steve hayes p5 f22 n7101 z5 fidonet org faq missiology study christian mission part faculty theology unisa
nuscc nus sg \( simon \) subject quit smoking organization national university singapore lines 15 girlfriend smoker addicted quite time tried couple times , always get back background non christian , 's interested christianity i'm christian non smoker would like collect personal stories christians managed quit hope encourage keep trying anybody ever similar problem knows good book , pls reply email appreciate kinds helps thanks lot simon \( 65 \) dept ee , nat'l univ fax \( 65 \) singapore 0511 internet nuscc nus sg
mdw violin hr att com \( mark wuest \) subject boston c c organization lines 27 aside moderator article may 13 02 30 00 1993 geneva rutgers edu rick granberry pts mot com \( rick granberry \) writes see wo n't quote , several errors article things differences opinion , writer plain facts confused example , kip mckean asked come lexington church leaders brought team actually charleston , il point many friends , even leaders gainesville , telling go , people northeast n't open 'd wasting time talents really ! ! \( fact kind inside joke one point church boston took well open , indeed ! \) \) could take point point , position know one way things article wanted point contains misinformation mark mark wuest opinions , 's ! ! mdw violin hr att com \( sun mailtool ok \) mdw trumpet hr att com \( next mail \)
wagner grace math uh edu \( david wagner \) subject homosexual issues christianity organization uh dept math lines 84 michael michael siemon mls panix com writes michael kind interpretation see incredibly perverse michael applied story sodom blanket michael equation homosexual behavior rape since christians michael citing bible context presumed michael least read story , amounts slander charge michael homosexuality rape use us michael michael wrong \( though slightly less incendiary , 's michael secondary argument contingent \) equate michael homosexuality behavior equate michael rape god 's messengers let 's review sodom gomorrah story briefly states clearly visitors angels men every part city sodom young old surrounded house called lot , men came tonight \? bring us sex ' rest story angels referred men sodom lot men furthermore know gen 18 20 , 21 lord already found sodom guilty sin angels visited city clear sin sodom gomorrah involved homosexual sex appears men become inflamed lust group public square simply indicates show lesser degrees homosexuality sinful , michael would us believe ultimately understanding god 's sexuality comes creation story solely story sodom gomorrah created us male female , instituted marriage relationship one male one female , therefore man leave father mother , united wife , become one flesh marriage relationship sexual relationship god blesses sanctions protects marriage man woman , even uses picture relationship church find one word blessing regulation sexual relationship two men , two women everything else find bible sexuality derives expresses god 's blessing marriage thus levitical code , given jews , forbade incest , homosexuality , bestiality ten commandments forbade adultery neighbor 's wife commandments forbade rape men sodom gomorrah regarded sexually immoral perverse \( jude 7 \) abandoned polluted marriage relationship thus also paul regarded homosexuality , romans 1 26 , 27 simply paul 's opinion , contrary god 's purpose creating us male female michael christians , doubt sincere ones , keep showing michael every corner usenet world , michael ever spout old verses \( obviously michael never thought , maybe never even read \) , total michael ignorance issues raised , slandering us vilest michael charges child abuse whatever minds michael manage conjure , tossing red herrings \( michael suppose \) great emotional force cause readers dismiss michael witness without even taking trouble find michael really , better response slander \? david h wagner day surely drawing near confessional lutheran god 's son , annointed , shall great majesty appear judge appointed laughter shall cease flames flames still increase scripture truly es ist der zeit v 1 ,
rexlex fnal gov subject two babylons organization fnal ad net lines 53 article may 13 02 30 57 1993 geneva rutgers edu mangoe cs umd edu \( charley wingate \) writes seeing two babylons brought , scholarship phony assertions spurious c wingate maybe dig little charles hislop 's scholarship accepted oriental institute , time , institute oriental studies 've stated , 've checked 25 references \( print private libraries \) likes wilkerson layard hold merit came conclusions trouble , find knowledge mysteries yet surpassed highly honored british oriental museum wilkerson known one leading archeologist history layard still refered two 200 yrs archeology regions recently refered time article babylonian archeology phony scholarship review references find misquoted misrepresented conclusions hislop conclusions tickle ears , much self evident assert conclusions spurious without merit gave references conclusions stated , last 25 years used conclusions debates rc seminaries , mention individual priests bishops talked one one counter scholarship made conclusions totally undermined claims rcc showing rcc based mysteries \( others shown even day various articles topics \) tongues movement direct result mysteries entering church , could influence rome , city seven hills \? also , listen conclusions , draw conclusions looking customs , artifacts , dress , purgatory , etc vantage mysteries n't even believer see parallels one example mitre come \? shaped way \? two tails hang back represent \? ancient head dress earlier culture rome time beginnings church state rome \? pagan history behind , , rcc chose regardless \? lay person middle eastern religion answer questions even scriptures refer hislop collect information various sources put one binding lack please tell discredit man accusation , yet present evidence supporting rex
ptrei bistromath mitre org \( peter trei \) subject athiests hell organization mitre corporation lines 106 article may 13 02 27 26 1993 geneva rutgers edu rexlex fnal fnal gov writes article may 11 02 36 29 1993 athos rutgers edu ptrei bistromath mitre org \( peter trei \) writes article may 9 05 38 49 1993 athos rutgers edu rexlex fnal fnal gov writes much deleted point today might masons \( note , worshipped osiris egypt \) much deleted bugs see kind nonsense first , reasonable evidence linking masonry ancient egypt , even existed prior late 14th century \( 's nothing definitive 17th \) i'm going cut rex 's bit must past 20th level read wilkinson 's egyptians shows egyptian religion british masonry man laboratory 33 degree black mason 've talked , public side mania hospitals side highest degree mason every learns rex , literally hundreds thousands degree masons country , thousands nasty stuff really going , n't think 'd couple disgruntled members exposing \? heck , say true , rev norman vincent osiris worshiper long quote someone named hislop \( source given \) deleted i'm attempting extract relevent points osiris actually nimrod , babylonian deity admitted secret system free masonry originally founded mysteries egyptian isis , goddess mother , wife osiris babylonian nimrod osiris connected building trade , ie , masonry nimrod , son , negro n't refering biblical nimrod , rather babylonian god \? tradition egypt , recorded plutarch , long tradition masonry claiming ancient lineage order , grounds dates right back constitutions 1738 , cite adam first mason 've seen claims place masonry among romans , greeks , egyptians , even book claims prove originally masonic temple claims prove nothing 's beef , rex \? claims ex mason showed leopard skin wore lodge representation osiris usually show wearing leopard 'd check tomb paintings remember n't show interesting druids also show , say hide , representation , however , worshipped spotted cow give ancient citations \? druids suppressed 2000 years ago 's point \? whole leopard skin business sounds bizarre yet gone scottish rite \( contains higher degrees anti masons get excited , invented 1750 's \) , know enough people \( good christians \) , reject claim 'll stand statements masonry mystery religions find source babylon , great sorry peter , mean cold slap face much much 'a weary feeling deja i'm going similar argument soc culture african american evidence contrary masonry n't find origins egypt masons personally talked , refered egypt origin n't try reading serious books masonic history , 's craft \? separating many years ago , freely admitted \? got honest come actual evidence masonry existed prior , 'd impressed \( actually , anything earlier would pretty good \) rex peter trei ptrei mitre org disclaimer speak employer
hudson athena cs uga edu \( paul hudson jr \) subject homosexuality issues christianity organization university georgia , athens lines 37 article may 13 02 30 39 1993 1545 geneva rutgers edu noye midway uchicago edu writes believe one important thing wrote old new testament passages cited know scientific evidence support homosexuality least partly inherent rather completely learned note scientific evidence area prove conclusions evidence suggest certain part homosexual 's brains different heterosexuals proves little also notice apostles scientific evidence linking certain genes , stealing certain genetic problems even scientific evidence , doubt would stopped communicating teaching holy spirit things sinful reminds conversation professor mine said something true christianity teaches give every inclination people give leanings christianity , concept struggling flesh , bringing submission one person may problem temper , murderous heart , another may problem homosexuality , another may inclined greed god offers us opportunity sources find information , homosexual behavior recorded among monkeys animals , suggestive inherent rather learned , least word unnatural n't really apply preying mantis bites head mate mates natural woman thing husband \? bible concerned human morality , touches animal morality relates humans link hudson
uabdpo dpo uab edu subject teenagers pick church parents n't attend \? organization utexas mail news gateway lines 13 q teenagers freedom choose church go \? friends teenage kids like go church left would sleep , 's option complain friends go , yet n't attempt make friends mention respecting sunday school teacher , usually find way miss sunday school make church service , \( parents thoroughly disgusted \) might add never ending battle \? ruin whole day let anyone problem get resolved \? f
hudson athena cs uga edu \( paul hudson jr \) subject homosexual issues christianity organization university georgia , athens lines 38 article may 13 02 31 26 1993 geneva rutgers edu mls panix com \( michael siemon \) writes notice verse forbidding bestiality immediately follows verse prohibiting appears homosexual intercourse absolutely irrelevant incomparable issues gay christians raise \( concern sexual activity within committed , consensual human adult \) , bringing relevant laws cannot address actual issues , bloody dishonest trailing red herring front world relevant homosexual acts acts together law important anyone would want say command homosexuality deals temple prostitution \( think would agree proof \) law reveals character god , holy , , good written new testament , consider commiting homosexuals acts address passage scripture must discuss scriptures involve consensual human adult relationships \? n't sophistry \? point making god ordain certain kinds sex acts everyone brings scriptures trying use emotional argument compares homosexuals child issue dealing sex acts ungodly problem loving , relationship member sex , issue hand sinfulness sex members sex , forbidden sex acts valid topic conversation idea relationships may emotional relationships adult humans red herring agree okay adults caring relationships one another link hudson
hudson athena cs uga edu \( paul hudson jr \) subject homosexuality issues christianity organization university georgia , athens lines 11 article may 13 02 29 39 1993 geneva rutgers edu revdak netcom com \( andrew kille \) writes manifestation spirit among gentiles convinced peter \( acts 10 \) prejudice \( based scripture , might add \) accordance god 's intentions would like point particular command eat fellowship gentiles found old testament part built around law part peter 's tradition , scripture link hudson
jek cu nih gov subject goedel 's ontological proof lines 22 fred gilham asks \( may 11 \) whether true kurt goedel wrote version ontological argument existence god yes , publish , published oxford university press german english translation volume 3 , due appear fall , collected works meanwhile , find summary , perhaps whole thing , article jordan howard sobel called goedel 's ontological proof book saying , edited judith jarvis thompson \( sp \? \) , published mit press 1987 professor c anthony anderson philosophy department university minnesota written article , goedel 's ontological proof , appeared magazine faith philosophy , v 7 \( 1990 \) 291 303 discusses objections various critics raised goedel 's proof , offers revised version proof vulnerable objections , james kiefer
mls panix com \( michael siemon \) subject homosexuality issues christianity organization panix public access unix , nyc lines 97 may 13 02 31 16 1993 1569 geneva rutgers edu djohnson cs ucsd edu \( darin johnson \) writes ok , 's important gay christians \? sex , christianity \? i'm afraid see question tendentious try 's important christians \? love god love human beings \? course conceivable answer one like deeply suspicious flavor christianity would elevate one clause great commandment priority claim conflict true , told let dead bury dead , hate family rather let keep us following christ dichotomy one love fellows love god , allowing social constructs blind us presense god particularly satanic twist love god manner become excuse treat others different level one caught love god trouble comes relation human love human sex yes , sometimes case church taught sex nasty , evil , sinful stuff man wife leave parental homes become , living one flesh , sex vehicle becoming one flesh \( doubt , read st paul wrong prostitutes \) \) less , mean sexual bonding deeply founded aspect social interaction , particular foundation institution marriage , unlike many mammals , human males remain foster children support children 's mothers behind genesis 2 18 24 \( behind jesus' citation passage \) observe , way , human males fact described another thing characterizes human societies raising non begotten children , orphans like , products quite common humans spouses unique animal world , full extent social consequences implications intricate us yes , course sometimes goes wrong like else , infected sin , find married couples bond , people addicted initial stages sexual bond formation \( , falling love phase \) break forming bond order keep stepping threshold deep unity god prepared us , stepping back right away satan may indeed use sex handy tool corrupt human love creation , nature , god 's grace power christ make things new need problem christians \( though must , even christ , devil , around like roaring lion seeking someone \) , returning original question , important straight christians \? sex , christianity \? paul , clearly , tended think sex best distraction christianity \( though charitable , context expectation immediate , hard tasks married union lifelong building adaptation seemed somehow proper preparation immediate since know hour return , act instant readiness mates proposes long lifetime together telling people bond perspective strikes crippling us second clause commandment love would claim saints capacity deeply love \( without sexual complication , mind \) fellow human beings unless deeply spiritual life married union growing together one flesh means type case , persistent continued sexual relationship human , little good comes trying flesh point pretending otherwise , pretending sexual beings christianity would hope would willing forgo sex completely , order avoid stumbling block others , depends entirely context context major hypocrisy part find us stumbling blocks much less mind sins people life celibacy gift , maybe even victory troubling sexual urge seems lead sin nothing say ever read gift even gift love , indeed god 's creation , develop full without marriage founded sex difference spiritual gifts telling people particular gift \( else \? \? \) fraught manipulation disregard differences spiritual god one person given gift speaking toungues , another toungues yet another prophecy still another teaching notion particular gift required one earliest heresies michael l siemon say gods , sons mls panix com high , nevertheless shall die like men , fall mls ulysses att com like prince psalm 82 6 7
eugene bigelow ebay sun com \( geno \) subject doctrine original sin reply eugene bigelow ebay sun com organization sun microsystems , inc lines 9 creps lateran ucs indiana edu \( stephen creps \) writes anyway , argument seems saying , god , certainly would n't things way therefore , god n't things way would never say thing argument says understand
bill twg bc ca \( bill irwin \) subject immaculate conception reply bill twg bc ca \( bill irwin \) organization group \( twg \) lines 53 ragraca vela acs oakland edu \( randy graca \) writes consequently , verse indicates without sin also , observed top post , mary free sin order mother jesus , definitely without sin mother jesus without sin order give birth god , n't mary 's mother without sin order give birth perfect vessel jesus \? matter , n't mary 's grandmother without sin either \? seems original sin flowing person , need last one \( mary \) none puts god box , say could n't incarnated normal human god powerful god , whatever suits purpose includes creating solar system planet earth appearance great age providing path red sea children israel depend existence ridge high ground wind blowing right speed direction birth normal sinful person without tainted original sin see far much focus objects religion nearly enough personal relationship available believers author existence , without necessity relationship god form mary , apostles pope note idea mary conceived without original sin , e immaculate conception , distinct idea mary sinned lifetime , separate doctrine , believe , also held catholic church mary born without original sin , n't sin lifetime , different jesus \? means world two perfect humans one died take away sins world gave birth \? would certainly want see scriptural support would start praying anyone god everything ever read bible teaches jesus sinless lamb god , mother , grandmother hope useful useful helping understand rc beliefs thank bill irwin group vancouver , bc , canada uunet ! twg ! bill \( 604 \) 431 9600 \( voice \) computer bill twg bc ca \( 604 \) 430 \( fax \) systems partner
mserv mozart cc iup edu \( mail server \) subject eternal marriage lines 31 hall vice ico tek com \( hal f lillywhite \) writes article may 11 02 39 09 1993 athos rutgers edu dhammers pacific \? \( david hammerslag \) writes paragraph brought mind question \( mormons \) reconcile idea eternal marriage christ 's statement ressurection people neither marry given marriage \( luke , chapt 20 \) \? deletions think jesus saying \( clearest matthew 's mark 's accounts \) marriages performed resurrection goes along belief person marry must done earth deletions problem view topic discussion passage marriages performed earth jesus' words seem indicate regards response answer question earthly marriage would valid resurrection case , straightforward interpretation , opinion , marriage exist next life raised different nature wise , would jesus offer like angels heaven contrast idea resurrected marrying given marriage \? angel like natures , someday shall , , earthly marriages irrelevant least , 's think jesus saying post resurrection validity marriages performed earth mileage may vary \) mark
mmh dcs qmw ac uk \( matthew huntbach \) subject capital punishment organization computer science dept , qmw , university london , uk lines 25 article may 12 04 29 37 1993 athos rutgers edu gt7122b prism gatech edu \( randal lee nicholas mandock \) writes safety degree means death penalty military operations sufficient keep peace , non violent provisions preferred proportion keeping final goal protection peace human dignity thanks posting exact wording seen previously part quote seems indicate disapproval capital punishment used means sufficient would say stronger restriction saying capital punishment useable justifiable would certainly say cases crime justifies death \( perhaps old testament interpretation \) , reverence life would say would oppose actual death penalty \( new testament interpretation \? \) matter debate whether death penalty works keep peace way non violent provisions n't believe , would certainly observe usa , death penalty , far higher murder rate uk , matthew huntbach
maridai comm mot com \( marida ignacio \) subject bernadette dates organization trunking fixed lines 52 jek cu nih gov writes joe moore writes mary time appeared girl named bernadette lourdes referred immaculate conception since nine year old would way knowing doctrine , apparition deemed true sealed case doctrine bernadette 14 years old visions , 1858 , four years dogma officially proclaimed pope , james kiefer forgot exactly age remember clearly born family poverty education , whatsoever , age apparitions suffered asthma age family living abandoned prison cell sort ask several times apparitions name since confessor priest asked several instances , priest get answer since bernadette receive one time , several apparitions passed , lady finally said , immaculate conception , bernadette , happy repeated words mind forget told priest asking , told priest , priest shocked asked bernadette , know talking \? bernadette know exactly meant happy answer priest priest continued , remember know \? bernadette answered honestly repeat mind way priest priest knew dogma four years old bernadette know yet answer priest finally observed took proof authentic personal revelation lady bernadette \( note lady lourdes shrine spring water lady requested bernadette dig bare hands front pilgrims start little water flowed several years water flowing \) marida spreading god 's words actions mother teresa
joe ericsson se \( joe armstrong \) subject angels needles \? organization ellemtel telecom systems labs , stockholm , sweden lines 10 recall reading somewhere number bishops spent great deal time debating topic many angels could fit tip needle anybody reference \? thanks joe armstrong
castle ed ac uk \( ben hambidge \) subject committing life god \? organization edinburgh university lines 42 hi everyone , i'm trying find way god , find difficult ca n't hear god talking , letting know exists knows , feel ca n't possibly get know maybe talking n't know understand listen christians tell \( opinion \) way find god take plunge commit life , discover idea diving totally unknown little bit frightening , questions 1 \) actually commit \? say , ok god , go , i'm committing life , would n't really feel 'd listened least , could n't sure one \( \) commit oneself god \? 2 \) committing way , forfeit current life \? longer \? feel i'm 'good' many christians , try uphold idea n't go round killing people , stealing , etc , try get jealous people way would say keep standards treating people well many christians give \? 3 \) committed , \? involve \? \( \) burdens taking \? 4 \) , 's general difference \? assume , \( like birthday n't suddenly feel year older \) wo n't suddenly change life day commit happens \? 5 \) sure right thing \? find last sentence actually \? ! thanks much help answering questions perhaps e mail would better way reply , 's ben castle ed ac uk janet uk ac ed castle \( 20 year old university scotland \)
amoco com \( david l hanson \) subject sj mercury 's reference fundamentalist christian parents organization opinions lines 66 article may 14 02 10 09 1993 athos rutgers edu david bernard central sun com \( dave bernard \) writes david bernard central sun com \( dave bernard \) subject sj mercury 's reference fundamentalist christian parents date 14 may 93 06 10 10 gmt article athos rutgers edu , dan ingres com \( rose arose \) writes raised oakland san lorenzo strict fundamentalist christian parents , mason beaten child san jose mercury news come article starting raised oakland mexican parents , mason beaten , face would red anger injustice done mexican family members although i'm neither fundamentalist evangelical , often noticed trend media short , permissable bash fundamentalists need nationality mexican try simply substitute different religion raised muslim parents , raised jewish parents paper simply would noticed newspapers n't even know fundamentalist least , confuse new evangelicals fundamentalists news group , liberals n't even know fundamentalist \( crying anyone believes obeys god 's word \) fundamentalist would train children way god , way man would include life threatening would include punishment liberals , cry infidel anyone believe god 's word signature follows statutes wonderful therefore obey psalm 119 129 david l hanson opinions expressed ! people know , believe fundamentalist sufficiently ill defined advise using specific term think many people use cover people believe inerrancy number related concepts \( e g denial evolution \) original fundamentals movement somewhat specific , would think people accept inerrancy would actually support whole original agenda \( included list key traditional doctrines , e g virgin birth \) term used press describe aggressive conservative religions general , typically attempting legislate religion legalism yet another ill defined term however reason use context fact common theological definition believe salvation law hope one believes conservative contributors hold view however basic difference approach expect get bible conservative approach expects find specific behavioral rules generally posters advocating approach talk relevant passages paul 's letter god 's law liberal approach expects find general principles , regards specific behavioral rules subject change depending upon culture things 's easy see liberal would regard conservative approach legalism 's hard know quite term use issue case inerrancy , one saying paul made factual error rather , question whether statements taken law calling positive answer legalism seems obvious enough terminology n't seen good alternative clh
carlson ab24 larc nasa gov \( ann carlson \) subject homosexuality issues christianity organization nasa langley research center , hampton , va usa lines 29 article may 14 02 11 48 1993 athos rutgers edu , dps nasa kodak com \( dan schaertel , , , \) writes article 28328 athos rutgers edu , carlson ab24 larc nasa gov \( ann carlson \) writes anyone thinks gay christianity compatible check dignity , integrity , light presbyterian churches , affirmation , mcc churches , etc meet gay christians , find , pray , discuss scripture , form opinion start religion , would fine scriptural basis statement , acts 11 15 18 , 22 23 , john 4 1 8 says try spirits see god fact really gets heart problem think know scripture faith driven feel word god know \? tried learn anything \? dr ann b carlson \( b carlson larc nasa gov \) ms 366 nasa langley research center ` \) hampton , va 23681 0001
william vos stratus com subject homosexuality issues christianity organization stratus computer , marlboro lines 13 still human n't know , homosexual heterosexual , strive follow jesus world dying needs hear jesus christ gaining entry heaven cannot done without first cleansed blood jesus sin cannot dwell heaven natural laws god converted christianity means baptized holy spirit cannot get heaven good works union holy spirit , man 's behavior change true union desire homosexual fornication homosexuality leave life truly baptized holy spirit 's say n't stumble
creps lateran ucs indiana edu \( stephen creps \) subject immaculate conception organization indiana university lines 28 article may 14 02 11 19 1993 athos rutgers edu seanna bnr ca \( seanna \( \) watson \) wrote quite problem idea mary never committed sin mary fully human \? possible god miraculously make person free original sin , free committing sin whole life , purpose incarnation jesus \? ca n't god repeat miracle done mary make rest us sinless , without need repentance salvation \? yes , mary fully human however , imply subject sin catholic doctrine says man 's nature good \( gen 1 31 \) , damaged original sin \( rom 5 12 16 \) case , original sin , mary fully human rest us ask god cannot repeat miracle mary 's preservation original sin better way phrase would way , misunderstand mary 's salvation obtained like , blessed virgin mary 's salvation obtained merits sacrifice christ cross however , god bound time , creation , god free apply sacrifice anyone time , even person lived christ came earth , time bound perspective therefore , christ 's death resurrection still served necessary purpose , necessary even mary 's salvation steve creps , indiana university creps lateran ucs indiana edu
autry sgi com \( larry autry \) subject immaculate conception organization silicon graphics , st louis , mo lines 26 article may 14 02 11 19 1993 athos rutgers edu seanna bnr ca \( seanna \( \) watson \) writes article may 9 05 39 52 1993 athos rutgers edu jhpb sarto budd lake nj us \( joseph h buehler \) writes referring mary immaculately conceived , never subject original sin , also never committed personal sin whole life possible special degree grace granted god skipping n't particularly object idea assumption , perpetual virginity \( regard catholic dogma agree disagree catholic brothers sisters christ \) , even believe virgin birth jesus , concept mary 's sinlessness seems odds rest christian doctrine understand catholic church entirely different view mary christian churches \( parallel beliefs notwithstanding \) christ , accounts , sinless person ever live , trouble sinless mary concept related issue original sin adam eve answer one children answer sins , certainly answer mine larry autry silicon graphics , st louis autry sgi com
gt7122b prism gatech edu \( randal lee nicholas mandock \) subject hail mary , full grace organization georgia institute technology lines 62 article may 14 02 11 19 1993 athos rutgers edu seanna bnr ca \( seanna \( \) watson \) writes article may 9 05 39 52 1993 athos rutgers edu jhpb sarto budd lake nj us \( joseph h buehler \) writes referring mary immaculately conceived , never subject original sin , also never committed personal sin whole life possible special degree grace granted god quite problem idea mary never committed sin mary fully human \? possible god miraculously make person free original sin , free committing sin whole life , purpose incarnation jesus \? ca n't god repeat miracle done mary make rest us sinless , without need repentance salvation \? n't particularly object idea assumption , perpetual virginity \( regard catholic dogma agree disagree catholic brothers sisters christ \) , even believe virgin birth jesus , concept mary 's sinlessness seems odds rest christian doctrine understand n't agree joseph 's accurate statement catholic dogma mary 's perpetual sinlessness , interpret luke 1 28 , angel come , said , hail , full grace , lord thee blessed art thou among women luke 1 48 \? , behold , henceforth generations shall call blessed suppose verses might interpreted mean mary possessed limited quantity quality grace , us , seems full grace means says filled , incapable containing people know abundance grace souls existing heaven \( another catholic dogma , based communion saints , explained earlier post \) full grace means sinless , anyone ever sinned life cannot without sin sense mary sinless catholic , find certain dogmas tough embrace 's catholic faith prayer come play pray god strengthen accept faith given bride christ , turn usually strengthens community faith church , probably know , faith christ 's church tantamount faith christ inasmuch church christ 's mystical body catholic nature must two aspects faith christ \( 1 \) personal faith christ personal redeemer \( 2 \) community faith church body christ randal lee nicholas mandock catechist gt7122b prism gatech edu might want check greek full grace translates single word simply means favored , perhaps literally , full specific translation 're using clh
poram mlsma att att com subject deuterocanonicals , esp sirach organization lines 123 andrew continuing discussion deuterocanonicals article may 13 02 29 43 1993 geneva rutgers edu revdak netcom com \( andrew kille \) writes poram ihlpb att com wrote lets talk principles accept god sets standards ought included scripture ask 1 authoritative \? authoritative quality writing statement community faith whether accept writing arguably , since authority matter communicator say , example jesus lord whether world large accepts authority thus bible considered authoritative content whether accepted \( issue heart pilate 's pragmatic question truth \? jesus lord brought jesus' reply appeal authority father \) also might like consider claimed authority represented statements thus says lord bible , claim put across exact words god fall danger relativism rejection authority claim lies community faith something become truth accepted \? main thrust argument direction well \( reference rev 22 came \) 2 prophetic \? prophecy defined \? speaking forth god 's message , much apocrypha must surely qualify narrowed predictive elements cut 39 accepted ot books well nonetheless criteria determining validity book jesus' standards scripture cannot broken name single prophecy fits bill apocrapha \? \( ie definitely fulfilled written \) 3 authentic \? , standard \? authenticity function authors \? historical accuracy \? subjective evidence come light contradict confirm authenticity \? \( archaeological , textual evidence example \) 4 dynamic \? supposed mean \? many apocryphal books highly dynamic thought provoking , faithful , even exciting getting relationship text reader quality writing , ability fire mind , affect thought life cause us act certain way something jesus' quote man live bread alone , every word proceeds mouth lord \( matt 4 4 \) 5 received , collected , read used \? \? course apocryphal books received \( \) , collected \( else would \) , read used \( still , catholic orthodox churches \) catholic church give authority apocrapha accepted 66 books \? certainly widely used ot nt counts , apocrapha falls short glory god demonstrably false think said may want revise conclusion addition think , eg koran , book mormon would using principles one word caution may find books may derived bible remember lucifer quite capable appearing angel light quoting scripture quote unger 's bible dictionary apocrapha 1 abound historical geographical inaccuracies anachronisms books bible thinking \? deletions view words warn everyone hears words prophecy book anyone adds anything , god add plagues described book anyone takes away book prophecy , god take away share tree life holy city \( rev 22 18 9 \) surely sets standard man made traditions words clearly meant refer book revelation alone , whole body scripture revelation accepted late canon church simply see primary role kind identifying limiting scripture 've lost point context arguing statement rev applied , whole acceptance rejection idea follow man made traditions believe act god involved selection criteria classified scripture comes definition 3 16 revdak netcom com barney resson many shall run fro , knowledge shall increase \( daniel \)
maridai comm mot com subject bernadette dates lines 58 jek cu nih gov writes joe moore writes mary time appeared girl named bernadette lourdes referred immaculate conception since nine year old would way knowing doctrine , apparition deemed true sealed case doctrine bernadette 14 years old visions , 1858 , four years dogma officially proclaimed pope , james kiefer forgot exactly age remember clearly born family poverty education , whatsoever , age apparitions suffered asthma age family living prison cell sort ask several times apparitions name since confessor priest asked several instances , priest get answer since bernadette receive one time , several apparitions passed , lady finally said , immaculate conception , bernadette , happy repeated words mind forget told priest asking , told priest , priest shocked asked bernadette , know talking \? bernadette know exactly meant happy answer priest priest continued , remember know \? bernadette answered honestly repeat mind way priest priest knew dogma four years old bernadette know yet answer priest finally observed took proof authentic personal revelation lady bernadette \( note lady lourdes shrine spring water lady requested bernadette dig bare hands front pilgrims start little water flowed several years water flowing \) marida spreading god 's words actions mother teresa marida \( maridai ecs comm mot com \)
agr00 ccc amdahl com \( anthony g rose \) subject everyone dialog tony rose please read ! reply agr00 juts ccc amdahl com \( \) organization amdahl corporation , sunnyvale ca lines 17 hello everyone wanted let everyone know selected part reduction force amdahl currently dialog , waiting letters , saved letters floppy continue get back net another account future genie network , email address god bless goodbye want continue dialogs via us mail , contacted tony rose c jude 3 missions p box 1035 , ca
revdak netcom com \( andrew kille \) subject mary 's assumption organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 13 dave bernard \( david bernard central sun com \) wrote elizabeth greeted mary , elizabeth said something effect mary , women , blessed , appears exactly places mary beyond sanctification normal humanity phrase su en blessed among women nothing indicate exceptional unique status , woman mary blessed adding word fair reading text good reasons church 's mary , cannot depend verse revdak netcom com
norris athena mit edu \( richard chonak \) subject boston church organization lines 14 \( dear moderator would add bcc faq \? \) case ex members boston church christ looking support organization , 's number burlington , 617 272 1955 r c readers new england may interested seeing series news reports bcc 6 pm nightly news channel 5 \( , boston \) , next days \( starting wed , 5 19 \) viewers outside boston area , telecasts also aired new england cable news channel 8 pm
marka hcx1 ssd csd harris com \( mark ashley \) subject marian apparitions 1 organization ft lauderdale , fl lines 56 blessed virgin mary appeared catherine , sisters charity july 18 , 1830 rue du , paris sister catherine awakened late night small boy , age 5 6 , literally glowing sort interior light child led sanctuary chapel promised virgin mary found awaiting lady appeared instructed two hours matters pertaining life future france world november 27 lady appeared catherine instructed medal struck told wore medal would enjoy special protection mother god would receive great less year three apparitions june reality many reports received wore within two years issuing medal known miraculous medal catherine died 1876 body day remarkably preserved \( \) july 27 , 1947 body lies chapel rue du first meeting lady apparition november 27 1830 average height clothed white veil flowed head fell floor altar , pyramid painted represent god 's knowing wisdom looked lady 's feet rested white globe also green serpent yellow spots stepping hands golden ball represented world great streams light issued hands also showed catherine image two hearts , sacred heart wrapped piercing heart sword sword represented suffering jesus apparitions announced onset great battle dark era lay immediate future apparition leading recent ones lady began dispense secrets globe revealed worldwide dispute forces dark told catherine times evil fall upon france throne overturned entire world overcome evils kinds refer books st catherine lady 's messages copy medal also available catholic bookstores post marian events every days including ones happening today still investigation postings serve introduce events please look understand reason increasing number urgency apparitions mark ashley disclaimer opinions harris' marka gcx1 ssd csd harris com lost los angelino
atterlep vela acs oakland edu \( cardinal ximenez \) subject baptism requires faith organization national association disorganized lines 17 aaronc athena mit edu \( aaron bryce cardenas \) writes troubles many posts recently trying support doctrine original sin primarily catholic doctrine , purpose defend idea infant baptism read ezekiel 18 , see god n't hold us guilty anyone else 's sins original guilt adam neatly eliminates need savior proves saved works alone ! original sin , possible us save sinning understand reasoning behind argument , leads sheer folly original sin reason need faith saved alan terlep scorpion says , 'it 's oakland university , rochester , mi nature ' atterlep vela acs oakland edu
eugene bigelow ebay sun com \( geno \) subject doctrine original sin reply eugene bigelow ebay sun com organization sun microsystems , inc lines 20 bigelow writes also noteworthy consider jesus' attitude argument pharisees ot canon \( john 10 31 6 \) , explained followers road emmaus law , prophets psalms referred ot division scripture \( luke 24 44 \) , well luke 11 51 taking genesis chronicles \( jewish order would say genesis malachi \) scripture remember adam 's transgression , men women sinned , paul wrote humanity god 's sin , thus , subject , sin transmitted generation generation andy byler andy , write paragraph believe 3rd time someone else 's words attributed ca n't speak rest humanity , anything
aidler sol uvic ca \( e alan idler \) subject mormon beliefs children born wedlock organization university victoria lines 62 aaronc athena mit edu \( aaron bryce cardenas \) writes bruce webster writes indeed , lds doctrine goes one step cases holds parents responsible children 's sins failed bring properly \( cf c 68 25 28 note passage applies members lds church \) include key verse \( c 68 25 \) others may reference , inasmuch parents children zion , stakes organized , teach understand doctrine repentance , faith christ son living god , baptism gift holy ghost laying hands , eight years old , sin upon heads parents sin parents \? hi bruce reconcile practice ezekiel 18 \? ezekiel 18 20 soul sins one die son share guilt father , father share guilt son righteousness righteous man credited , wickedness wicked charged ezekiel 18 translated correctly eyes perhaps \? ezekiel 18 teaches correct principle however , assumes fathers sons equal knowledge prepare judgment parents responsible teach children gospel life skills fail make sufficient attempt teach children , parent would held responsible children 's sins , teaching properly whenever lord installs someone position authority either family church expects person teach charge ezekiel 33 7 9 someone called care others watchman unto house israel thou speak warn wicked way , man shall die iniquity blood require thine hand nevertheless , thou warn wicked way turn turn way , shall die iniquity thou hast delivered thy soul even though c commandment parents children zion believe parents responsible teaching children whatever good principles understand however , lds parents accept greater could judged strictly idler
mpaul unl edu \( marxhausen paul \) subject mary 's assumption organization university nebraska lincoln lines 34 david bernard central sun com \( dave bernard \) writes elizabeth greeted mary , elizabeth said something effect mary , women , blessed , appears exactly places mary beyond sanctification normal humanity n't see logically follows true enough , mary received blessing beyond granted history humanity privileged mother savior says nothing mary needing blessed person first order might thereby worthy bear son god , think problem humans ca n't comprehend sinless incarnation could spring sinful human flesh god 's spirit rather simply accept gracious miracle god , must needs try dope mechanism rationale could mary 's words , spirit god savior , regarded low estate , sound like words human aware humanity , need savior , similar david proclaimed psalms words holy need god 's grace really apologize harping , n't suppose 's important 's see mary joseph baby reduced , feel lose wonder fact god chose come , born people like , share existence redeem us 's holy incarnation paul marxhausen university nebraska lincoln grace happens
mls panix com \( michael siemon \) subject arsenokoitai nt meaning organization panix public access internet unix , nyc lines 210 conviction sin meta exegetical methodological essay article may 14 02 10 06 1993 25123 athos rutgers edu rexlex fnal fnal gov writes ca n't post , come piece meal daily look forward reading got library last week , object view look articles appeared last years , since previous look literature un fortunately , moved journal back issues , n't get look articles hoping find continue reserve judgment arsenokoitai seen latest scholarly work , hope rexlex 's posting may give meat chew however , , point methodological issues needs shown anything concluded matter article rexlex posts addresses issues , much better , perhaps understand problem hard james b deyoung writes , study argues paul coined term arsenokoitai , deriving lxx lev 20 12 \( cf 18 22 \) using homosexual orientation behavior minor point , let make anyway de young already contradicted prior assertion abstract ancient analysis issues concerned actions orientation doubt much bearing article , thought point start hypothesis de young advancing paul \) coined word b \) intended meaning reference levitical law questions wish raise 1 \) would one go confirming truth hypothesis \? 2 \) follows one accepts \( stipulates , sake discussion \) correct \? note b \) independent \) consider b \) far plausible \) , seems merely counsel despair finding nothing literature contemporary paul clarify word far know , paul general invent words anywhere else letters unless otherwise established pattern , sound methodology assume particularly gives hint ate text fix coinage 's meaning audience yet , extract presents evidence need confirm reject hypothesis \? \( , say outset , find somewhat plausible certainly know nothing makes impossible way problem passage \) i'm going set aside moment question whether paul might coined usage , look question means , principle , two kinds evidence , internal external , look text paul 's letter clarification look outside prior contemporary writings paul might relied , derivative writings claim access paul 's meaning single worst problem word corinthians internal evidence paul 's meaning uses word totally without explanation hint meaning , save inclusion list negatives implies negative meaning left , internal clue , etymology formation word indeed reason de young \( others \) associated leviticus prohibition men men , verb standard euphemism sex \( lie leviticus , bed greek \) one problem \( koitai \) , far know , used way greek therefore , offer one serious test de young 's hypothesis must pass rejected find body greek texts contemporary paul \( much prior day \) x koitai formation implies men sex x obviously , best case find arsenokoitai texts would confirmation word read way worth emphasizing compound words general projecting reader may imagine roots existence parallels n't prove hypothesis correct goes long way towards making usage \( whether original paul specific case x arse n \) possible comprehension readers test moves direction external evidence paul text explain word \( \) , expect readers already know word \( stands coinage \) expect mimics word know , guess meaning without much external evidence , , texts paul 's social historical considerations might , come picture uses word , dependent paul , sufficient internal \( contextual \) evidence gloss contemporary scribe show derogatory reference male , similar koitai used similar ways , one grounds denying paul coined word assuming readers might understand meaning see problem \? paul coined word , requires readers share enough context comprehend coinage intent case would \( de young 's guess \) understand referring levitical universal prohibition male male sex \( , mind , context paul emphasized least congregations \( one assumes corinthians else explain 1 cor 6 12 , corinthians pulled back freedom \? \) non torah law gentile converts ! \) among considerations make implausible paul coined word , first element archaic arse n old attic form even classical \( let alone \) times would assimilated n , implies even usually external evidence pin meaning usage paul inventing word obsolete attic formation \? n't coin word , picked like others list common terms , meaning readers constrained common meaning \( since gives \) cannot emphasize enough paul tell us means word \( original readers \) guessing , least , contemporary context maybe paul used word explained great detail person trace evidence , suppose mere fantasy desperately need external evidence word seems exceptionally precisely problem think several less equally plausible hypotheses word \) standard gutter term abuse \( , maybe specific , maybe general \) homosexual male activities b \) term abuse used jews awful homosexual greeks \( may may consciously associated part leviticus passage \) c \) paul invented term may may association leviticus may may intend word explicit universal application absolute clear boundaries since none words list character , last seems least plausible hypotheses i'm advancing , 'd say top head \) plausible still reservations , word never appears paul , later uses evidence depending paul , one opt paul 's appear , might still coined unaware prior use \( case , coinage inherently confusing ! \) one normally c \) basis earlier uses \( especially shown common places paul traveled \) either \) b \) cases , one take account paul 's relation community usage picked word whether greek jewish communities , paul 's relations hardly straight forward ! , far yet seen , little external evidence aid us selecting one \( \) hypothesis guess good mine \( maybe worse maybe better , depending lot things \) remains far n't know , one equate human god means convinced conscience paul getting says elsewhere day major controversy somewhat character \( romans 14 22 23 \) hold belief , god consider man fortunate make decision without going conscience anybody eats state doubt condemned , good faith , every act done bad faith sin part , cannot see way resolve paul 's meaning use arsenokoitai without directly applicable external evidence nature external evidence , never reach certainty paul 's intent paul , like humpty dumpty \( , rest us \) use words ways personal choices sometimes leave readers puzzled leads god , may blessed lead away \( paul 's words led people \) , paul 's intense effort contrive meaning souls may regretable consequences always found paul reliable guide read large , see lay position detail hammer home time time much less certain meaning many brief cryptic passages \( one \) usual way , gone great length first intended meta exegetical points would needed confirm paul \) coined b \) case meant word mean leviticus prohibition second point hypo thesis , follow implies initial readers later christians given , tomorrow night 's meditation \) michael l siemon say gods , sons mls panix com high , nevertheless shall die like men , fall mls ulysses att com like prince psalm 82 6 7
mikec procom com \( mike christensen \) subject homosexual issues christianity organization procom technology , inc lines 140 mls panix com \( michael siemon \) writes article may 11 02 36 34 1993 athos rutgers edu mserv mozart cc iup edu \( someone named mark \) writes deceived neither fornicators , idolators , adulterers , effeminate , homosexuals , thieves , covetous , drunkards , revilers , swindlers , shall inherit kingdom god cor 6 9 11 moderator adequately discusses circularity use porneia think agree \( paul \) kinds activity could named fornication theft would well deserve condemnation may may agree bounds categories , however fact argued suggests matter clear paul excellent interest making clear , leaving matters rather spirit led decisions , uncomfortable living readings dominated christian discussion areas fornication \? \( sex outside marriage , abuse sex \) homosexual intercourse outside context marriage \? n't use god given us \? homosexuals using grace god license practice sin \? certain persons crept unnoticed , long beforehand marked condemnation , ungodly persons turn grace god deny master lord , jesus christ jude 4 \( nasb \) defined god legitimate marriage \? cause man shall leave father mother , shall wife shall become one flesh gen 2 24 \( nasb \) answer said , read , created beginning made male female , said , 'for cause man shall leave father mother , wife two shall become one \? consequently longer two , one flesh therefore god joined together , let man separate matt 19 4 6 \( nasb \) immoralities , let man wife , let woman husband let husband fulfill duty wife , likewise also wife husband 1 corinthians 7 4 , 5 \( nasb \) plenty laws prohibiting sexual behavior found leviticus , christians ignore completely never even bother examine assume know ones moral ones ritual well , news anthropology course ritual clean vs categories awful lot societies \( , buried pretty deep \) cannot see ground distinguishing bits leviticus ritual law christian know feels applies us disagree every law written leviticus looked sin need savior understand someone may know particular sin listed law , would hope would repent confronted notice verse forbidding bestiality immediately follows verse prohibiting appears homosexual intercourse well , la ti da \? almost slimey argument one homosexuality rape know one argues seriously \( though one always find jokers \) defense bestiality absolutely irrelevant incomparable issues gay christians raise \( concern sexual activity within committed , consensual human adult \) , bringing relevant laws cannot address actual issues , bloody dishonest trailing red herring front world want address bestiality , business , mine attempting torpedo serious issue using culture ridiculous joke shows interest hearing us human beings want dismiss us , use means think also noticed preceeding verses say also shall approach woman uncover menstrual shall intercourse neighbors wife , defiled leviticus 18 19 , 20 \( nasb \) verses relevant shall lie male one lies female abomination leviticus 18 22 \( nasb \) god telling israelites practice things \? defile things nations casting become defiled land become defiled , therefore visited punishment upon , land inhabitants , keep statutes judgments , shall abominations , neither native , alien among leviticus 18 24 26 \( nasb \) lord listen say nobody wants dismiss homosexuals love , n't agree practice sin truly repented sin hate sin within lives hate sin life christians hate sin within lives sin bring repentance yes agree john 3 17 , also know jesus said , repent kingdom heaven hand matt 3 17 n't agree homosexuality sin repent \? means remain bondage repent god set free love , mike michael christensen trust lord heart , senior product support engineer lean procom technology , inc understanding proverbs 3 5 \( nasb \)
petch gvg47 gvg tek com \( chuck \) subject daily verse lines 3 keep perfect peace whose mind steadfast , trusts isaiah 26 3
armstrng cs dal ca \( stan armstrong \) subject sleeping one 's aunt organization math , stats cs , dalhousie university , halifax , ns , canada lines 37 last time discussed homosexuality , asked whether anyone could identify act besides homosexual intercourse bible prohibited , might circumstances bring apparent harm anyone put another way , question whether homosexual intercourse act christians supposed believe immoral solely basis god says , insight offered immoral one could answer question either form bible \( get interesting response based roman catholic theology \) however , think least answer first question link hudson pointed recent comments sleeping one 's aunt incest held immoral every society , , degrees relationship marriage \( thus , \) prohibited bible exception trouble may difficult see particular relationship qualifies incestuous societies differ define incest genetic reasons sometimes offered , biblical cases cannot dealt way ca n't man sleep step mother assuming father dead married \? case differ duty marry one 's brother 's wife two cases parallel \? bible prohibit incestuous marriages homosexual marriages reason , perhaps god knows good us yet incapable understanding p please n't bother writing tell homophobe , last time mind made questions n't know whether homophobic n't know call anyone else homophobe without knowing person may much expression bigotry homophobic remarks stan armstrong religious studies dept , saint mary 's university , halifax , n armstrong husky1 stmarys ca att ! clyde ! watmath ! water ! dalcs ! armstrng
rexlex fnnews fnal gov subject question hell organization fnal lines 93 article may 14 02 11 45 1993 25249 athos rutgers edu pwhite empros com \( peter white \) writes luke 16 talks rich man lazarus matthew 25 talks eternal fire prepared devil angels revelations 20 21 reference fire place unbelievers thrown matthew 18 talks thrown eternal fire fire hell seems quite clear place fire burns forever revelations passages clear devil angels tormented forever matthew 25 passage n't seem abundantly clear whether punishment unbelievers everlasting sense final sense continual 've missed important passage 2 thess 1 6 10 god repay affliction , give relief afflicted us well lord jesus shall revealed heaven mighty angels flaming fire , dealing retribution know god obey gospel lord jesus pay penalty eternal destruction , away presence lord glory power , comes glorified saints day , among believed testimony believed things note passage unbelievers openly reject gospel , know god eternal destruction eternal hope 2 16 primarily emphasize separation presence god context speaking 2nd advent 2 1 speaking rapture n't confuse two bible , aware discussion specifics hell beyond general hot , unpleasant torment yet far greater discription hell heaven instance , discussed \( \) rich man continually stay fire still feel discomfort pain whether point pain sensing ability burned forgive , throw physical body fire , assuming person starts alive , fairly quick point , nerves destroyed pain longer sensed like earthly fire requires gas producing substance ignite however , seems different type fire expressed burning bush consumed also , daniel acct shows laws nature even earthly fire stated occurs judgement , unbelievers , \( already physically dead \) cast hell maybe n't understand alive end , walk straight even died sin resurrected , e reunited physical body , receive condemnation e longer physical body ca n't feel physical pain contrary teaching scripture could sensed continually hell forever without god lazarus rich man parable told idea listener think physical terms order get point people wo n't listen god even rises dead conjecture best using support physical body thesis point parable reach hard hearted listening fact resurrection gospel jesus christ seems reasonable also draw parable hell even remotely pleasant true hell , eternal separation god , seen glory presence whether open rebellion revealed gospel christ known god \( \) , paul says , without every mouth stopped defense judgment seat god therefore understand appointed unto man die , comes judgment literally , n't make less reality compel us riches christ share others rex
rexlex fnnews fnal gov subject faq essay homosexuality organization fnal lines 82 article may 14 02 10 20 1993 athos rutgers edu hudson athena cs uga edu \( paul hudson jr \) writes think must careful totally throw leviticus law reflection god 's character true holy nature , say god endorses homosexuality run problem though addressed series articles i'm posting , ca n't wait really blew socks read tim 1 3 11 verses 3 8 speaks perverted teachings mosaic law vv 9 10 , , order , 5th thru 9th commandments midst listing homosexuals , everything else , seen god 's absolute n't believe absolutes , nothing jehovah ot , paul reveals messiah nt lord christ jesus read jehovah 's anointed savior , see emphasis moral separation pagan gentiles lev 18 20 cor 6 9 10 , one notation \( drunkards \) found lev 18 20 paul naive use lxx knew full well using law god given ot , application nt 've said , law fulfilled , done away questions trying deal encountered homosexuality contexts people would probably agree wrong never faced experience christians try act straight fail , never faced christians trying define christian homosexuality , fits general christian ideals fidelity seeing sexuality mirror relationship god man unfair take paul 's judgement homosexuality among idolaters use make judgements questions understanding thoroughly article posted please refer one reasons us accept common argument paul probably face problems better probably adequate defense statement paul 's culture n't understanding homosexuality read article uses facts claim question counsel homosexual christians entirely theological issue , also pastoral one n't see come conclusion think , worked homosexual community means working aids patients pastoral merely practical application theological truth however working thru issue homosexuality need love understanding friend cheating wife friend lives girlfriend , yet continue witness , choice made , remorse , feel paul 's pastoral care , presented church , come bear significance one active rebellion placed outside church believer , non believer , one leaves gods hand member youth group constantly little girls , would n't hesitate deal matter quickly , part , present political correctness issue pederasty accepted present , accept homosexuality latter politically correct , former least yet morals decay guess would follow liberal application political realm economics liberals want tax rich federal , yet states , try get businesses settle , give tax incentives comes moral code , use cultural thing , politically correct moment rex might want look 1 tim 1 10 really 5th 9th commandments , seem missing thieves , homosexuals would fit adultery course possible narrower meaning homosexuality general , think 's thesis objection per se idea author 1 tim might quoted 10 commandments , 5 9 , minus one plus things , begins look bit marginal clh
holfeltz lstc2vm stortek com subject question jesus alone , oneness organization storagetek sw engineering lines 40 article may 5 02 53 16 1993 athos rutgers edu sas upenn edu \( james r blankenship \) writes jesus oneness tend refer groups deny trinity explain matthew saying jesus name father , jesus name son , jesus name name holy spirit , father , son , holy spirit referring different roles , filled jesus imho going bad worse 3 1 , 1 3 bad enough like god prays refuse believe jesus prayed let 's get real , scriptures say prayed father , father someone different son problems multiple gods , whole context scriptures says perfect , even father heaven co heirs christ like co heirs share things equally including knowledge , power , dominion etc like \( christ \) , god god cannot , powerful god , liar god , greatest gods n't know anyone says jesus prayed whole point trinity 's enough distinction within god relationship possible implies sort communication assume native form , father son directly enough connected prayer sense n't involved jesus incarnation son , e logos made flesh 's human form , human actions limited human capabilities communication father takes form prayer n't see 's anything seems implicit whole idea incarnation clh
mls panix com \( michael siemon \) subject deuterocanonicals , esp sirach organization panix public access internet unix , nyc lines 63 article may 14 02 11 26 1993 athos rutgers edu db7n andrew cmu edu \( andrew byler \) writes michael siemon writes protestants love play jerome worth yes , worth \) seriously jerome merely \( \) another christian witness , taken tell us one community saints seem wish greater polarization dichotomy catholic protestant thought seems , historical perspective , valid sure , rome rejects \( significant aspects \) protestant thought vehemently protestants reject \( significant aspects \) roman thought apparently try greatest extreme rejection , either side , quite vast gulf fixed casual observers seem assume ecumenical consultations rome lutherans , well rome anglican communion \( belong \) show nearly complete convergence understanding basic theological issues sticking points tend church thus , example , go say remeber decree pope st damsus , many us regard papal necessary \( opposed political \) significance sometimes , sometimes wo n't misread think communion , least , throws books think overstress sense reformed may , must church jesus christ adopt canon unbelieving jews , drawn jamnia 90 ad , christian use septuagint seriously suggest rethink saying , could taken , anti semitic worst sense unbelieving jews , according understand christian , chosen people god , recipients pre revelation think say matter meeting interpreted recent study titled \( n't citation information hand , sorry \) produced primarily background christian \( rather specifically jewish \) scholarship suggests strongly meeting mostly resolved question , practice canon long fixed basis scrolls kept temple , thereby made hands unclean used list sacred books may drawn josephus pre sources correspond \( plus minus one book , chapter correctly \) current jewish canon throw deuterocanonicals \( , way , position books greeks accept rome \? \) \) observe issue complex simply binary judgment justice andy byler michael l siemon say gods , sons mls panix com high , nevertheless shall die like men , fall mls ulysses att com like prince psalm 82 6 7
mserv mozart cc iup edu \( mail server \) subject christian homosexuality \( part 1 2 \) lines 288 note breaking reply 2 parts due length mls panix com \( michael siemon \) writes article may 11 02 36 34 1993 athos rutgers edu mserv mozart cc iup edu \( someone named mark \) writes mls panix com \( michael siemon \) writes homosexual christians indeed checked verses used us incredibly perverse interpretations others simply address issues see verses clearly address issues , exactly zero verses clearly address issues agree verses gone gay rights activists zero verses address issues , n't mean also verses clearly support case \? sure want say zero verses clearly address issues \? however , couple seem though require incredibly perverse interpretations order seen condemning homosexuality kind interpretation see incredibly perverse applied story sodom blanket equation homosexual behavior rape since christians citing bible context presumed least read story , amounts slander charge homosexuality rape use us story genesis 19 tells citizens sodom demanding opportunity know two men lot 's guests fact sodomites became angry lot offered daughters could seen indicating interested homosexual intercourse yes , wanted rape , homosexual rape , everybody agrees wrong christians believe homosexual aspect desire sinful rape aspect desire passage say offended god , whether homosexuality , intended rape , , believe fair consider possible alternatives light related scriptures believe believe god offended homosexuality rape trying say homosexuality form rape seems take view sin described gen 19 fact sodomites wanted commit rape , unfair homosexuality associating sin rape see might reach conclusion started conclusion nothing wrong homosexuality , 're supposed start conclusions 's circular reasoning god fact opposed homosexual intercourse general , probably interpretation least offended blatant homosexuality intent commit rape later document believe old testament god one homosexual intercourse , even partners consenting adults deceived neither fornicators , idolators , adulterers , effeminate , homosexuals , thieves , covetous , drunkards , revilers , swindlers , shall inherit kingdom god cor 6 9 11 moderator adequately discusses circularity use porneia moderator found proposal circular regarded church proper authority determining kinds marriages would legitimate , thus church 's refusal recognize perverted marriages circular reasoning questions , however , nothing church new kinds marriages , argument something straw man terms original question , precise definition translation porneia n't really important , unless trying argue bible n't really condemn extramarital sex i'm sure moderator trying case , think moderator missed point jesus asked divorce , replied , read , created beginning made male female , said , 'for cause man shall leave father mother shall wife two shall become one \? consequently longer two , one flesh therefore god joined together , let man separate \( mt 19 4 6 \) read sexual union man \( male \) wife \( female \) divinely ordained union words , institution heterosexual marriage something ordained established god men , church , god men supposed dissolve union , jesus' words , something created men circular reasoning , reading god 's word read bible god ordained union male female read similar divinely ordained union two males two females granted , men ordained alternative unions \( n't caligula reported married horse \? \) , union jesus refers god joined together heterosexual union man wife \( pardon mentioning caligula know 's probably inflammatory , save discussion bestiality , part 2 post please hold passing judgement read section reply \) anyway , original question whether translate porneia way condemns select kinds extramarital sex , question given heterosexual marriage union described bible divinely ordained , given biblical prohibition sex outside marriage , homosexual intercourse sinful \? course , see first need ask whether bible really condemns sex outside marriage seem trying argue certain kinds extramarital sex \( sins \) really wrong think agree \( paul \) kinds activity could named fornication theft would well deserve condemnation may may agree bounds categories , however fact argued suggests matter clear paul excellent interest making clear , leaving matters rather spirit led decisions , uncomfortable living readings dominated christian discussion areas alternatively , may definition terms porneia rest , paul 's day , would call faq e law , tutor appointed god lead us christ , spent sixteen centuries heads god 's people idea things like homosexual intercourse abominations deserved punishment death perhaps paul n't go detail porneia c 1600 years considered question dealt already perhaps reason god 's apostles prophets devote great deal time defining distinct , new testament sexuality intend significant changes sexuality already established law 'll discuss law homosexuality greater detail , wanted point new testament 's failure develop detailed new standard sexuality necessarily evidence god care sexual conduct especially 1600 years putting people death practicing homosexuality ! homosexual behavior different \( gay christians know \) adamant condemning rape heterosexual homosexual child molestation heterosexual homosexual even possibly harmless obsessive kinds sex heterosexual homosexual would stand condemned paul continuation chapter cite may mildly suggest paul letter want use perhaps good guide meaning \? 'i free anything , ' say yes , everything good doubt free anything , one let anything make free 1 cor 6 12 must god god commandment neither gay christian wishes break people indeed involved obsessively driven modes sexual behavior wrong \( though slightly less incendiary , 's secondary argument contingent \) equate homosexuality behavior equate rape god 's messengers define obsessively driven mode sexual behavior \? determine difference obsessive sexual behavior normal sex drives \? desire sinful sex obsessively driven mode behavior \? think see circular reasoning defined sinful \? obsessive makes obsessive \? fact person driven seek even though 's sinful obsessive desire society condemns \? , 's circular defined obsessive \? person wants even though society condemns society condemn \? obsessive seem trying limit bible 's condemnation porneia perverted sex acts , n't think really define perverted without falling exactly circularity accuse , , paul condemning declares fornicators shall enter heaven \? wo n't deal exegesis leviticus , except tangentially fundamentally , exhibiting circularity assumption know porneia means think misunderstood trying make argument technical definition porneia , raising issues sinfulness extramarital sex lack scriptural evidence homosexual counterpart divinely ordained union heterosexual couples plenty laws prohibiting sexual behavior found leviticus , christians ignore completely never even bother examine assume know ones moral ones ritual well , news anthropology course ritual clean vs categories awful lot societies \( , buried pretty deep \) cannot see ground distinguishing bits leviticus ritual law christian know feels applies us i'm dead serious people start going \( matter \) repulsive unnatural acts know , huh \? solid clue sort arbitrary cultural american prejudice eating insects please remember said discuss bestiality , part 2 basis , assuming conclusion , say law male male intercourse leviticus part ritual law \? glad asked would agree god condemns homosexual intercourse even among law moses , would show god 's condemnation homosexual acts goes beyond ritual law \? show scripture god punished homosexual behavior people law moses , would agree god 's definition homosexual intercourse abomination limited ritual law law \? 've private email discussion 7th day adventist subject sabbath , main point christian sabbath keeping requirement nowhere scripture god command gentiles rest sabbath , ever condemn gentiles failing rest sabbath illustrates difference universal requirements thou shalt kill , requirements merely part \( temporary , jews \) law moses , sabbath point trying make think classification homosexual intercourse abomination part temporary , jews law moses hand believe labelled god abomination gentiles well jews , punished guilty behavior death exile 's back genesis 15 , god promises give abraham land possession kinda hard , n't think \? verse 16 clue might unjust sounds seems god going takeover quite , iniquity yet complete remember , long ritual law iniquity committing , complete , would justify cast land killed \? go back look lev 18 verses 1 23 list variety sins , including child sacrifice , incest , homosexuality , bestiality beginning verse 24 , god starts saying , defile things things nations casting become defiled land become defiled , therefore visited punishment upon , land inhabitants whoever abominations , persons shall cut among people notice god says gentile nations \( ritual law moses \) punished defiled land committing abominations include incest , bestiality , homosexuality flip ahead two chapters lev 20 , find abominations listed , time god decrees death penalty anyone involved things , including , specifically , man lying another man one lies woman \( lv 20 13 \) upon , meaning god 's eyes , deserved die done things according lev 18 26 29 , even alien non jew among refrain practices , penalty cut god \? among people circumstances , believe would difficult support claim old testament god objected intended rape , homosexuality , sodom since god took trouble specifically list sex two consenting men one reasons wiping nations , \( homosexual rape , mind , plain , voluntary gay sex \) , 'd say god neutral subject homosexual behavior , even nothing mosaic covenant christians think parts leviticus law christians \( others even thought \) incumbent every case , handled merits determine pick one ignore another according ii tim 3 16 , scripture inspired god profitable teaching , , correction , training righteousness thus , believe even though gentile christians law , learn studying certain action defined sin violation law , sin law \( example , case sabbath keeping \) god reveals certain actions abominations even law , conclude god 's objection practice based whether person law , sinfulness act case homosexuality , homosexual intercourse defined god defiling abomination gentiles well jews , e law well thus , trying say gentile christians obligation keep part law , simply saying god referred homosexuality sin even obligated keep law , think appeal exemption law valid grounds legitimizing practice god declared abomination jew gentile \( continued part 2 \) mark
eugene bigelow ebay sun com \( geno \) subject sj mercury 's reference reply eugene bigelow ebay sun com organization sun microsystems , inc lines 18 article may 11 02 37 07 1993 athos rutgers edu , dan ingres com \( rose arose \) writes raised oakland san lorenzo strict fundamentalist christian parents , mason beaten child san jose mercury news come article starting raised oakland mexican parents , mason beaten , face would perhaps connection mexican variant bring true statement n't say anything christians general specifically said strict fundamentalist christians reflects common perception people fundamentalists strict whether perception justified another issue reading distinguishing strict relaxed fundamentalists clh
christopher vance adfa oz au \( christopher js vance \) subject mormon temples organization computer science , university college , unsw adfa , canberra , australia lines 32 article may 14 02 11 39 1993 athos rutgers edu shellgate ! llo uu4 psi com \( larry l overacker \) writes early church history , dismissed prior celebration eucharist secret , giving rise rumors christians problem idea dismissed eucharist considered qualified participate sorts perverse claims actions considered holy observed non christians , well potentially dangerous individual christian might identified dismissal early church mean eucharist secret \? mean , n't stay , membership participate really n't hang around yes , know 're obliged keep attendance qualify , exception , okay \? may stay happens next secret reason conduct business meetings church , 've made clear members vote 've always happy non members stay observe evidence intentional secrecy \? \( rumours , always happen things approved power \? \) christopher
koberg spot colorado edu \( allen koberg \) subject christianity crisis hank hanegraaff organization university colorado , boulder lines 11 article may 12 04 27 23 1993 athos rutgers edu af664 yfn ysu edu \( frank decenso , jr \) writes anyone read important book \? , feelings \? yet read book , though intend judging hear constantly radio , sounds good john 's charismatic chaos series book , talks much things health , wealth , prosperity thing real part \( prominent \) tv religion every time turn , 's paul \( showing new building \) talking 's sin poor unhealthy gr
mserv mozart cc iup edu \( mail server \) subject christian homosexuality \( part 2 2 \) lines 226 \( continuation earlier post \) mls panix com \( michael siemon \) writes christians think parts leviticus law christians \( others even thought \) incumbent every case , handled merits determine pick one ignore another frankly think whole effort misguided reread paul doubt free anything christians criterion use making judgments , great commandment love god neighbor cannot go leviticus decide command basis , arbitrary selection simply context , remarkably offensive say notice verse forbidding bestiality immediately follows verse prohibiting appears homosexual intercourse \( sorry found offensive intent offend leading another point , discuss detail \) well , la ti da \? almost slimey argument one homosexuality rape know one argues seriously \( though one always find jokers \) defense bestiality absolutely irrelevant incomparable issues gay christians raise \( concern sexual activity within committed , consensual human adult \) , bringing relevant laws cannot address actual issues , bloody dishonest trailing red herring front world want address bestiality , business , mine attempting torpedo serious issue using culture ridiculous joke shows interest hearing us human beings want dismiss us , use means think see revulsion bestiality far exceeds homosexuality certainly spoke homosexuality way speak bestiality , nobody would trouble labelling homophobe let ask gently judgemental people 's sexual preferences \? happened doubt free anything \? think serious double standard describe comparison homosexuality bestiality slimey , making implicit judgement bestiality perverted , sinful , disgusting , unnatural short , things society thought homosexuality people share view claim know sincere , mean exist even newsgroup alt sex bestiality going accuse mere jokers \? notice deleted main point comment fact biblical condemnations bestiality occur connection levitical prohibitions homosexuality new testament passages arguably taken condemning homosexuality , none condemn bestiality one main points seems christian homosexuality acceptable due lack clear new testament statements valid argument , christian made much acceptable fact new testament makes reference , clear unclear , subject \? quite serious going accept homosexuality biblically acceptable basis arguments , going fair apply standards everyone else 's declared sexual preferences well arguments make homosexuality applied sexual preferences well , i'm going apply see comes i'm trying torpedo serious issue using label ridiculous joke posted question interpret biblical guidelines christian sexuality , n't think question irrelevant group called soc religion christian bible discusses homosexuality bestiality together context , therefore feel good precedent jesus paul expound , considerable length , central pin christian moral thought required love one another , else depends gay lesbian christ challenge address issue terms get return cheap debate tricks attempting side track issues n't know whether makes difference , record , side issue believe loving one another includes encouraging people defile , therefore high importance determine whether god regards certain sexual acts defiling read new testament god joined together heterosexual couples , marriage bed read old testament homosexual intercourse bestiality defile person whether person law gay christians validly put aside old testament standards , want know fairly apply sexual practices defiled person old days n't think 's right take bits pieces law try apply christians today , e g bestiality still homosexuality n't pretty much said earlier , right \? used different examples , think said essentially thing wrong apply certain parts law christians christians , doubt sincere ones , keep showing every corner usenet world , ever spout old verses \( obviously never thought , maybe never even read \) , total ignorance issues raised , slandering us vilest charges child abuse whatever minds manage conjure , tossing red herrings \( suppose \) great emotional force cause readers dismiss witness without even taking trouble find intent stir emotional reaction personally n't get upset discussing alternatives monogamous heterosexual orientation i'm afraid assumed others would similar attitude please note never intended equate homosexuality child abuse merely noted , lack clear nt condemnation homosexuality , even greater lack nt condemnation \( even mention \) bestiality , practice number people \( e g alt sex bestiality \) consider true sexual orientation behavior shame anyone claims seen truth christ , god 's precious sake , people quote irrelevant verses condemn people n't know wo n't even take trouble listen start condemnations \? loving neighbor \? god forbid ! obey repeated commands judge condemn others \? christ paul spend orders magnitude time insisting half dozen obscure words paul bloody ready take license god tells , god 's sake \? quote john 3 omitted brevity excellent question , pray treat mere rhetorical question , genuinely seek discover understand answer recommend begin little introspection much attitude towards find bestiality repugnant regard slanderous even mention connection alternative sexual orientations \? apply verses love tolerance way apply homosexuals \? automatically experience subjective feeling revulsion thought \? lot people experience thought homosexual intercourse regard practice socially unacceptable \? lot people regard homosexuality socially unacceptable feel violates traditional judeo christian standard sexual morality \? many people feel homosexuality feel bible condemns \? many people think bible says condemn homosexuality condemn bestiality think comparing bestiality homosexuality insulting homosexuality \? honestly answer question , come long way towards understanding many people feel way homosexuality feel bestiality also please note sense condemning people merely pointing read bible see certain sexual practices bible appears condemn , e g sex outside marriage say think adultery pre marital sex sinful , take failing love neighbor \? treat bestiality something disgusting , repeated orders judge condemn others \? say christians guilty sinning condemning judging , accusation making guilty offense \? simply taking note practices bible brands sinful , leaving judgement people god \? long ages , \( many us \) confused evil counsel evil men told came light would rejected us took courses probably show sinful god 's light blessed whose spirits crushed self righteous shall justified however , seen truth , truth light humanity know fear light , enemies fear light witness everything shadow darkness false witness us michael l siemon say gods , sons mls panix com high , nevertheless shall die like men , fall mls ulysses att com like prince psalm 82 6 7 i'm sure mean two paragraphs mean jesus truth , accepts sinners , reject , agree sinners , would need savior salvation christ , however , mean sin irrelevant us , whatever want christ 's grace mean refer sin sin judgemental intolerant speaking general terms , specifically homosexuality bible calls something sin , unreasonable christians call sin applied christian homosexuality , think definitive authority christian sexuality bible make list everything bible says subject homosexual intercourse , think find every verse list negative condemning worst , unclear best pro gay statement could make list dispute new testament verses many people interpret condemning homosexual intercourse , gay perspective , positive thing say bible 's treatment homosexuality verses fail clearly condemn 's jesus declared foods clean , council jerusalem declared gentiles required keep ritual law , nobody ever homosexual intercourse abomination deserving death accepted christian practice verses describing homosexual intercourse abomination jews law gentiles law , verses best clear people believe clear condemnation homosexual behavior , 's sum total bible says sex intercourse appreciate \( personal experience \) desire everything simple , cut dried , black white , want ok , oppose wicked however , think bible makes case definitively would like fact , n't believe says anything positive case yes , know verses loving one another , judging one another , 's really issue , \? know admit still things sinful christians , since say wrong christians condemn therefore , issue whether bible says homosexual intercourse sin even challenge clarity new testament verses , still left fact thing bible say clearly homosexual intercourse abomination law mark actually n't think reaction comparision bestiality based think regards slimey rhetorical approach connecting homosexuality bestiality people accept homosexuality take radical approach law regard lev binding christians argument 's way text separate bestiality , homosexuality , wearing mixed mean people limits conduct , mean accept bestiality simply means sexual ethics come law , particularly lev clh
miner kuhub cc ukans edu subject david 's hebrew quiz software organization university kansas academic computing services lines 8 anybody using david 's hebrew quiz software \? tell space typing hebrew \? \( space bar n't work , anyway \) email please thanks ken miner kuhub cc ukans edu opinions
cantva canterbury ac nz \( james \) subject presentation package preaching \? organization university canterbury , christchurch , new zealand lines 16 hi , presentation package would recommend bible teacher \? 've checked graphics windows think suitable sales people preachers bible teachers present outline message i'm looking one great overhead projector slides imports clip arts works word windows imports word windows files works inkjet printers know meets part , please let know please email response n't keep newsgroup thanking advance , james
cs cmu edu \( thomas galen ault \) subject catholic doctrine predestination organization school computer science , carnegie mellon lines 24 article may 13 02 28 48 1993 1471 geneva rutgers edu creps lateran ucs indiana edu \( stephen creps \) writes article may 11 02 37 03 1993 athos rutgers edu noye midway uchicago edu writes catholic doctrine predestination exclude free way since god knows everything , therefore knows everything going happen us free , able change happens us however , since god knows everything , knows choices make advance \( god subject time \) often arguments pit predestination free believe curiously enough , subject occupied good bit prayer life recently god 's experience time completely different , since within without using words like predestination incorrect comes describing god 's perception action , , god , beginning , living , ending lives sort god , know , could lives time could predestined actions fact , since understanding things tied linear experience time , would say impossible us understand completely free interacts god 's control universe tom ault
eugene bigelow ebay sun com \( geno \) subject mary 's assumption reply eugene bigelow ebay sun com organization sun microsystems , inc lines 9 elizabeth greeted mary , elizabeth said something effect mary , women , blessed , appears exactly places mary beyond sanctification normal humanity remember couple times ex girlfriend said thought blessed son \( loved dearly \) fact , 've heard people refer someone blessed quite times 's common figure speech considering elizabeth another human , think passage offers nothing towards justifying mary
rexlex fnal gov subject incarnation two minds christ organization fnal ad net lines 99 article may 13 02 30 34 1993 1541 geneva rutgers edu tedr athena cs uga edu \( ted kalivoda \) writes nabil wrote 5 families agree wills acts always one hypostasis logos incarnate nabil , posit two minds christ , mind logos mind human jesus , must admit two wills mind mind without know dealt past church , philosophical problem examined v morris argued incarnation seen like \( mind logos \) \( \) \( \( \) \) , mind jesus god \( \( human \) \) son god son complete access human \( \( mind \) \) mind human mind access mind \( \( \) \) god son son allows access \( \( \) \) explains jesus said even know \( \) time kingdom ideas completely healthy version split personality field psychology , intriguing ideas dream , seeing acting , knowing , also omniscient 've explained want full document , ask mail rex questions arise begin think logos inner consciousness composed need clarify two natures christ briefly divine nature , existed eternally , undertake essential changes incarnation would cause conflict attributes god , foremost would mean remained , , incapable suffering death , free ignorance weakness temptation realm divine nature better say son god became absolute result incarnation divine logos could ignorant weak , could tempted suffer die , divine nature , derivation possession human nature would mean properties divine nature human nature properties person , therefore ascribed person reason say person omnipotent , omniscient , omnipresent , yet time also man limited power , knowledge , man , subject human wants , however , penetration one nature deity share imperfections humanity humanity share essential perfection godhead assume double personality due possession double natures christ 's human nature impersonal , self consciousness self determination personality god man must differentiate person nature man nature defined distinguishing qualities properties something fundamental character , disposition living , innate nature , essence , substance possessed common , trinity one nature also common nature mankind personality , hand , separate subsistence nature , power consciousness reason human nature christ , ever , separate subsistence , impersonal logos , god man , represents principle personality equally important see self consciousness self determination , , belong nature reason say jesus two consciousness two wills , rather one , activity one personality unites human divine natures , neither consciousness simply human simply divine quotation given identified , 's entirely clear position loren taking clarity , let note view expressed one classic heresies 's position christ 's two natures complete , one cases \( think includes example \) , human regarded missing normally people talk christ 's human nature impersonal mean somewhat abstract sense , using person , usual english sense personality use , doctrine called personally think sophisticated way denying logos took humanity fully however never formally ruled heresy , fact held influential theologians ancient modern \( e g athanasius \) quotation appears going farther even athanasius went , realm overtly heretical clh
rexlex fnal gov subject arsenokoitai scroggs \( 3 \) organization fnal ad net lines 199 cont dr james deyoung 3 r scroggs robin scroggs built upon discussion predecessors suggested new twist word scroggs believes arsenokoitai hellenistic jewish coinage , perhaps influenced awareness terminology term derived lev 18 22 20 13 lxx two words \( male \) \( bed \) , represents hebrew \( lying male \) yet believes paul originate term , borrowed circles hellenistic jews acquainted discussions \( 180 n 14 \) invented avoid contact usual greek terminology \( 108 \) true , scroggs observes , explains word appear greco roman discussions pederasty later writers avoided meaningless native speaking greeks \( 108 \) scroggs takes second part active word first word object second part , thus differing boswell 's learned discussion \( 107 \) yet scroggs understands general meaning one lies male narrow reference preceding \( cor 6 9 \) , scroggs interprets effeminate call boy , arsenokoitai active partner keeps hires occasion satisfy sexual desires \( 108 \) hence arsenokoitai refer homosexuality general , female homosexuality , generic model pederasty certainly cannot refer modern gay model , affirms \( 109 \) 's interpretation term tim 1 10 also combination \( fornicators \) , arsenokoitai \( slave dealers \) refers male prostitutes , males lie , slave dealers procure \( 120 \) refers specific form pederasty consisted boys youths sexual purposes , use boys adult males \( 121 \) even serious minded pagan authors condemned form pederasty uses instances arsenokoitai cor tim interpret apparently general condemnation female male homosexuality rom 1 consequently paul must , could pederasty mind \( 122 \) cannot know paul would said contemporary model adult adult sex relation ships \( 122 \) relating terms context contemporary ethical concerns , scroggs emphasizes point specific items list vices cor 6 deliberate , intended meaning paul form function catalogue vices traditional relationship individual item list context usually nonexistent concludes paul care specific item lists \( 104 \) basis meaning terms literary phenomenon catalogue vices , scroggs argues scriptures irrelevant provide help heated debate today \( 129 \) model today 's christian homosexual community different model attacked nt biblical judgments homosexuality relevant today 's debate longer used denominational discussions homosexuality , way weapon justify refusal ordination \( 127 \) reactions new interpretations arsenokoitai wright recent years positions bailey , boswell , scroggs come closer scrutiny perhaps critical evaluation boswell 's view david wright thorough article , wright points several shortcomings boswell 's treatment arsenokoitai faults boswell failing cite , citing , references lev 18 22 20 13 church fathers , eusebius , apostolic constitutions , clement alexandria , tertullian origen \( 127 28 \) boswell considered seriously enough possibility term derives either form meaning leviticus passages \( 129 \) significant , term derived , clearly refutes boswell 's claim first half word \( arseno \) denotes object gender second half \( koitai \) lxx must mean male sleeps male , making arseno object wright also faults boswell 's claims regarding linguistic features term , including suggested parallels \( 129 \) though boswell claims compounds arseno employ objectively employ adjective , wright believes difference two merely one diversity semantic import attaches difference two forms \( 131 \) wright believes compounds second half verb verbal force , first half denotes object second part , first half denotes gender \( 132 \) boswell 's treatment early church fathers wright takes special issue , former failed cite sources example , apology \( c ad 138 \) probably uses , , basic meaning male homosexuality \( 133 \) , contrary boswell 's discussion boswell fails cite \( 5 26 22 23 \) improperly cites eusebius syriac writer latter uses syriac terms identical syriac cor 6 9 tim 1 10 \( 133 34 \) next wright shows early church fathers use arsenokoitai parallel referring male homosexuality teenagers , dominant form male homosexuality among greeks \( 134 \) sometimes parallelism occurs listings \( adultery \) , porneia \( fornication \) , , arsenokoitai replacing \( 136 \) clement alexandria 10 108 5 cites second table ten commandments shall kill , ou \( shall commit adultery \) , ou \( shall practice homosexuality boys \) , shall steal \( 150 n 43 \) another occurrence \( commit homosexuality \) exists oracles 2 71 73 may , wright observes , word coined jewish pre christian writer hellenistic setting represented , book 2 \( 137 38 \) wright also discusses uses arsenokoitai \( 6th c \) drew upon first century ad writer , \( 4th 5th c \) , john faster \( 595 \) \( 139 40 \) last particular bears idea homosexual intercourse , contrary boswell wright next replies boswell 's contention term would absent much literature homosexuality denoted \( 140 41 \) wright points expected writers prior first century ad since exist , greeks used dozens words phrases refer homosexuality , sources \( e g \) show acquaintance paul 's letters deliberately avoid citing scripture , boswell citing several church fathers \( 140 41 \) boswell 's treatment chrysostom particular draws wright 's attention \( 141 44 \) boswell witness chrysostom , omitting references asserting patently untrue chrysostom gives long uncompromising clear indictment homosexuality rom 1 26 boswell exaggerated chrysostom 's infrequent use term wright observes boswell failed demonstrate us etc patently denote male homosexual activity \( 144 \) infrequent relatively technical nature availability term clearly specified prevailing form male homosexuality greco roman world wright also surveys latin , syriac , coptic translations tim cor three render arsenokoitai words reflect meaning homosexual e , understand arseno object second half word \( 144 45 \) none primary versions supports boswell 's limited conclusion based wright concludes discussion observations catalogues vices literary form believes lists developed late judaism hellenistic jews wrote clear condemnation homosexuality greek world increased concern part moral philosophers homosexual indulgence term came influence lxx \( 145 \) writers spoke generally male activity males rather specifically categorized male sexual engagement \( 146 \) arsenokoitai interchangeable , former encompassed latter \( 146 \) summary , wright seeks show arsenokoitai broad term meaning homosexuality arises judaism views boswell , scroggs , others limit term active male prostitutes pederasty without significant support linguistic historical studies next questioning position william peterson , get good stuff historical linguistic studies include symposium plato doubt modern understanding homosexuality understood time paul , certainly clear things also review paul 's use 20 nt , , 1 \) law fulfilled , done away , 2 \) lev 18 20 universal following chapters general put forth ot longer holds true today culture , stick around one 13 r scroggs , new testament homosexuality \( phil 1983 \) 86 , 107 8 independently came conclusion apparently connection made e sophocles , greek lexicon roman byzantine periods \( ad 1100 \) 14 see discussion , 101 4 says thing paul 's language rom 1 26 27 \( 128 \) doubtful see cautious words p , cor 6 homosexuality condoned church \? 17 \( 1979 \) 205 12 observes words , malakoi , arsenokoitai part jewish anti gentile yet paul 's end vice list , , indicate paul addressing real potential abuses ethical message , citing primitive tradition \( 210 \) wright disputes attempt associate term idolatry \( 147 \) 15 boswell 's treatment rom 1 26 7 , article r b hays , relations natural unnatural response john boswell 's exegesis romans 1 , jre 14 1 \( spring 1986 \) 184 215 , excellent critique 16 f wright , homosexuals prostitutes \? meaning arsenokoitai \( cor 6 9 , tim 1 10 \) , vc 38 \( 1984 \) 125 53 17 unpublished paper , henry mendell , arsenokoitai boswell paul , effectively boswell 's claims regarding philology arsenokoitai finds meaning general , male sex male \( 4 11 \) 18 wright 's \( 148 49 \) list additional sources church fathers 19 also noticed tendency boswell fail cite references sodom sodomy apocrypha see j b deyoung , critique interpretations ot apocrypha , 146 588 \( 1990 \) 437 53 20 light claim made boswell arsenokoitai points meaning lacking homosexual significance , wright asks neither philo josephus use , josephus , clement use latter chrysostom former \? \( 152 n 71 \) recent article , homosexuality relevance bible , 61 \( 1989 \) 291 300 , wright points paul shows remarkable extending ot ethic church \( 300 \)
khan0095 nova gmi edu \( mohammad razi khan \) subject mary 's assumption organization gmi engineering management institute , flint , mi lines 26 david bernard central sun com \( dave bernard \) writes also n't see necessity saying holy parents sanctified beyond normal humanity sounds like inability grasp immensity god 's grace incarnated dinary human elizabeth greeted mary , elizabeth said something effect mary , women , blessed , appears exactly places mary beyond whoa , dude n't see jump made blessed , 'll give much mean , placed beyond sanctification normal humanity mohammad r khan khan0095 nova gmi edu july '93 , please send mail mkhan nyx cs du edu responses letter post bounce , e mail nyx account
u2i02 seq1 cc keele ac uk \( rj pomeroy \) subject catholic doctrine predestination lines 36 article may 13 02 28 48 1993 1471 geneva rutgers edu , creps lateran ucs indiana edu \( stephen creps \) catholic doctrine predestination exclude free way since god knows everything , therefore knows everything going happen us free , able change happens us however , since god knows everything , knows choices make advance \( god subject time \) often arguments pit predestination free believe little issue semantics would better , call pre determination \? ! rrrrr oo bbbbb r r oo oo b b r r oo oo b bb robert pomeroy r rr b b bbbbb u2i02 keele ac uk r r b b r r oo oo b bb 1993 r r oo oo b b r r oo bbbbb address hall , keele , , england term time 16 x
jhpb sarto budd lake nj us \( joseph h buehler \) subject catholic doctrine predestination organization none lines 26 \( stephen creps \) writes catholic doctrine predestination exclude free way since god knows everything , therefore knows everything going happen us free , able change happens us however , since god knows everything , knows choices make advance \( god subject time \) often arguments pit predestination free believe last sentence steve 's important one remember certain things catholic religion cannot completely human case , would good evidence religion man made case predestination , reconcile two things would first appear sovereignty god 's things , man 's free deciding fate catholics believe ! n't mean anyone come pat reconciliation often thought goedel 's famous theorem catholic dogma , least analogous sense things true cannot proved god 's intellect far many truths never able understand
jek cu nih gov subject mary , blessed among women lines 23 dave bernard writes elizabeth greeted mary words blessed art thou among women \( luke 1 42 \) , appears places mary beyond sanctification normal humanity deborah says \( judges 5 24 \) blessed among women shall wife , blessed women tents doubtless taken 's slaying sisera type mary 's victory sin even take deborah 's words applying mary , must still applicable literally may well take mean god used part plan deliverance people , common mary reason suppose mean sinless , thus reason take like expression applied mary proof sinless , james kiefer
jek cu nih gov subject relevant subject lines lines 15 recent post bears subject line serbian genocide work god \? text contains 80 lines devoted defence doctrine predestination applied salvation individuals five line post script balkans natural easy keep subject line post one replying , focus shifts , keeping subject cause confusion intended general request post mentioned example , james kiefer
mls panix com \( michael siemon \) subject arsenokoitai nt meaning organization panix public access internet unix , nyc lines 209 meta exegesis conviction sin , part ii let return question , paul meant use refer less exactly levitical prohibition male male sex order bring problems clearly , 'll also \( think far less plausible \) paul coined term usage question want turn would mean paul 's readers later christians shorter last note , see question rapidly us major divisions within christ 's body , trying open gates flames across terrible separate us fellow christians biases \( loosely liberal \) evident , grinding axe , much trying get parties see may hard reach closure issues involved strike heart , different ways , see crucial gospel christ paul 's intent , immediate question readers understand intent \? following question , second one proper action manage understand \? since paul gives single clue meaning text 1st corinthians , two positive answers one negative question paul \( , someone \) apostolic community conveyed corinthians traditional jewish condem nation homosexual behavior , paul expects sufficiently well tradition needs explanation note evidence letter , 2 corinthians supposition \) b spirit teach us paul means \( , paul , god means behind paul 's inspired word choice \) c n't know , cannot guess within better pre , comparison , parallel use paul , passage word \( think obvious roots , try cutting teeth word ! neb translates grabbers \) even \( drunkards least advantage common insult , least hint meaning ! \) three positions less allowed exaggeration sake argument define classical catholic attitude towards tradition , one form protestant sola scriptura , liberal critical demand evidence three positions strengths weaknesses ad gospel preached community christ 's disciples successors , nt scripture communal tradition 's also case know little nothing tradition almost century paul , say access tradition several generations possibly confused transmission scripture documentation tradition critical era ad b born water spirit revert john attempt explain paul \) , hope standing gospel nicodemus neither traditions men vain elevation reason prevent spirit blowing downside protestant belief efficacy spirit guide scripture wing protestantism takes seriously also fragmented divergent understanding supposedly derived clear word god note classical lutheran , anglican thought scripture read within tradition , even judgment tradition scripture bizarre forms read scripture way primarily fringe aspect protestantism main problem approach apparently means one person convey another one may feel teaching received spirit history shows incredible conflict christians point , mind convinced led spirit one seriously urge point b without sense potential setting christian christian purpose \? ad c critical approach distinct advantage reach conclusion , lay data way open weakness obvious corollary usually possible \) may say word , already acknowledged bias one complaint critical methodology dissolves faith surely faith cannot honestly face ation evidence problems mere theology helpless address anyway , serious unfortunate possibility schism liberal conservative positions , mostly basis extreme zealots positions b c catholic sense authority tradition tends constrain arguments b contra c secondary position , despite horrendous strains rome likely find issues ultimately divisive protestant world \( predict \) via media , attempting give position due , due second question suppose tradition tells us , lots spiritual christians tell us , critical thought least admits possible , paul refering flat , universal levitical prohibition male male sex \? , personal tradition , let dictate answer 's precisely inherited traditions questioned 're dangerous examples christ questioning pharisees use tradition \( despite urging , matthew 23 2 heed \) examples peter , radically still paul , traditions led spirit call question jesus peter paul much throw tradition subject radical criticism , couple basic grounds demands law justice mercy good faith \( matthew 23 23 \) two commandments love god neighbor hand whole law , prophets , also \( matthew 22 40 \) fundamental \( derived christ \) validity challenge traditions , validity led first generation go far waive application torah gentile converts \( vastly beyond anything directly jesus' reported words deeds \) , signifies certain failure imagination postulate traditions specific challenges fact open challenge traditions passed men traditions men god may lead us even , traditions source spiritual instruction freely grant tradition inherently human , inherently \( given fall , corrupt \) nothing immune challenge , spirit shows us failure justice , mercy good faith nothing may ultimately stand unless follow love god love neighbor perfectly willing grant could blind sin spirit may taught another refuses teach \( dense learn \) tradition might value know tradition one occasion , christians appealed earthquake asia minor , sodomites cause earthquake , legislation passed making homosexual behavior capital offense accord gospel christ , christian human tradition hateful vicious see nothing much different onto usenet people quick condemn slow understand leading spirit , want part found obedience lord , , totally dependent witness christians , truth lives body christ say doubt gay christianity god said doubting pharisees would suppressed earliest church careful deal people enterprise , movement , human origin break accord fact come god unable destroy , might find fighting god acts 5 36 39 ask listen traditions , read scriptures mind soul open spirit , past history first christian willingness challenge tradition readings scripture though read authority scribes rabbis submission declaration must depend love god neighbor , study evidence learn history christians oppressing christians traditions judge jesus paul tell us judge let witness spirit lives fellow christians including preference theology guide towards god 's truth michael l siemon say gods , sons mls panix com high , nevertheless shall die like men , fall mls ulysses att com like prince psalm 82 6 7 's certain ambiguity discussion position \( \) , whether 're speaking tradition paul 's time think two ways use tradition one say paul readers share tradition , makes sense interpret words context shared tradition 's makes think arguments words turn silly know paul came background rather sex everything else says sex consistent background tone remarks homosexuality rom 1 consistent background even words sin lists n't general terms homosexual activity \( seems 's evidence \) , one piece evidence something would probably willing believe evidence paul shares common jewish rejection homosexuality identify \( \) catholic position , 's rather horse different color catholic position involves continuing church tradition arguments specific tradition might \( 1 \) get guidance interpret paul 's original meaning tradition , e g way church fathers interpreted , \( 2 \) gain confidence prohibitions still apply time universal judgement church time think somewhat different use tradition radical protestant might willing use known 1st cent tradition illuminate paul 's original meaning , use catholic position answer question attitude homosexuality clh
petch gvg47 gvg tek com \( chuck \) subject daily verse lines 3 dishonest money away , gathers money little little makes grow proverbs 13 11
mserv mozart cc iup edu \( mail server \) subject secret ceremonies \( mormon temples \) lines 47 shellgate ! llo uu4 psi com \( larry l overacker \) writes article may 11 02 38 41 1993 athos rutgers edu mserv mozart cc iup edu \( mail server \) writes n't necessarily object secrecy question , since see biblical reason aspect christian worship involve secrecy early church history , dismissed prior celebration eucharist secret , giving rise rumors christians sorts perverse claims actions considered holy observed non christians , well potentially dangerous individual christian might identified larry overacker \( llo shell com \) sig deleted brevity larry thanks reply , n't quite thing like said , understand non christians would denied access holy ceremonies , ceremony \( communion \) secret fact , four gospels record first breaking bread detail communion fellowship meal , \( still , opinion \) inappropriate invite share fellowship body christ fact unbelievers , denied access communal meals , began imagine sorts secret rituals communion means imply early christians fact hiding shameful things general public fact , think read early church fathers , find describing went communion 's seems funny mormons , claim true restoration 1st century christianity , insist hiding certain rituals grounds sacred mark actually , 's quite case john omits central elements last supper gospel full symbolism bread wine actual story n't people think omitted details talked public community also evidence aspects baptismal practice kept secret see morton smith 's secret gospel n't agree speculations secret practices actually , seem evidence mark omitted certain details inappropriate publication clh
u2i02 seq1 cc keele ac uk \( rj pomeroy \) subject satan kicked heaven biblical \? lines 11 article may 14 02 11 36 1993 athos rutgers edu , tas pegasus com \( len howard \) hi eddie , many people believe battle described rev 12 7 12 describes casting satan heaven fall earth shalom , len howard also check jude plus , concordance handy , check references generally taken mean angels , believe
jsledd ssdc sas upenn edu \( james sledd \) subject dreams body incidents organization social science computing lines 6 article may 14 02 10 02 1993 athos rutgers edu alisonjw spider co uk \( alison j wyld \) writes alisonjw spider co uk \( alison j wyld \) ps make clear , n't \( never tried \) oobes tend think limits christians \?
att com subject immaculate conception organization lines 40 article may 14 02 11 19 1993 athos rutgers edu seanna bnr ca \( seanna \( \) watson \) writes article may 9 05 39 52 1993 athos rutgers edu jhpb sarto budd lake nj us \( joseph h buehler \) writes referring mary immaculately conceived , never subject original sin , also never committed personal sin whole life possible special degree grace granted god quite problem idea mary never committed sin mary fully human \? possible god miraculously make person free original sin , free committing sin whole life , purpose incarnation jesus \? ca n't god repeat miracle done mary make rest us sinless , without need repentance salvation \? concept mary 's sinlessness seems odds rest christian doctrine understand 's always two way street god gave grace avoid sin , thus visited gabriel , gave fiat , total acceptance god 's fiat summarizes catholics regard highest humans , god chose accepted knowing advance , extrapolate neither subject original sin god create us miraculously free choose choose sin sufficient day evil thereof grace god command amount grace precisely determined god amount required god asked grace given us also enough , always choose accept also believe jesus fully human never sinned god could created much better person , one always chose right thing , yet created instead , despite flaws proves loves , continually drawing towards perfection whatever purpose , confidence accomplish ask god repeat miraculous creation mother son , leave \? joe moore
cunyvm bitnet subject harold camping organization city university new york lines 9 read harold camping 's book 1994 \? \? 's biblical points september 1994 probable time christ 's second coming 's informative book must read christians get local bookstore 14 95 peace ! ! ! clh
hudson athena cs uga edu \( paul hudson jr \) subject contradiction mormonism organization university georgia , athens lines 9 contradiction related moral issue polygamy mormon writings book book mormon called book jacob , joseph smith wrote abomination god david solomon many wives later , joseph smith wrote doctrines covenants \( possibly polygamy becoming issue personal life \) wrote abomination david many wives mormons answer contradiction \? link hudson
jek cu nih gov subject imprecatory psalms lines 10 paul fortmann submitted sermon peter hammond praying justice spoke positive value imprecatory \( cursing \) psalms connection , recommend membership book reflections psalms , c lewis , special reference chapter cursing psalms , james kiefer
cctr114 cantua canterbury ac nz \( bill rea \) subject portland earthquake organization university canterbury , christchurch , new zealand lines 64 bill rea \( cctr114 cantua canterbury ac nz \) wrote theology clashed theology local prophets deep understanding mosaic covenant awareness international events jeremiah spoke prophesies judgement prophesies deeply loaded theological meaning opinion , portland earthquake prophesy david wilkerson new york burn prophesy bubble compared majestic theological depths jeremiah prophesies perhaps one thing added jeremiah 's prophesies coming destruction jerusalem would understood people time full frontal assault understanding relationship lord today general populace hears prophesies like portland earthquake new york burn ones , unlikely see context relationship \( lack \) lord far likely think result imaginations religious one reason always deep suspicious bald judgement prophesies without explanation reasons judgement n't long winded see relatively modern example look abraham lincoln 's second inaugural speech relevant section type spiritual insight missing prophesies posted excerpt abraham lincoln 's 2nd inaugural speech read bible , pray god invokes aid may seem strange men dare ask god 's assistance bread sweat men 's faces let us judge judged prayers could answered neither answered fully almighty purposes unto world ! must needs come woe man offence cometh shall suppose american slavery one , god , must needs come , continued appointed time , wills remove gives north south , terrible war , woe due offence came , shall discern therein departure divine attribute believers living god always ascribe \? fondly hope pray mighty scourge war may pass away yet , god wills continue , wealth piled bond man 's two hundred fifty years toil shall sunk , every drop blood drawn shall paid another drawn sword , said three thousand years ago , still must said judgments lord , true righteous altogether malice toward none charity right , god gives us see right , let us strive finish work bind nation 's wounds care shall borne battle , widow , may achieve cherish , lasting peace , among , nations bill rea \( \) w u w bill rea , computer services centre , e mail b rea csc canterbury ac nz university canterbury , cctr114 csc canterbury ac nz christchurch , new zealand phone \( 03 \) 642 331 fax \( 03 \) 642 999
nb rockwell com \( scott \) subject homosexuality issues christianity organization rockwell international lines 79 may 13 02 30 39 1993 1545 geneva rutgers edu noye midway uchicago edu \( vera shanti noyes \) writes article may 11 02 39 05 1993 28328 athos rutgers edu carlson ab24 larc nasa gov \( ann carlson \) writes bible verses ag used ag homosexuality deleted anyone thinks gay christianity compatible check dignity , integrity , light presbyterian churches , affirmation , mcc churches , etc meet gay christians , find , pray , discuss scripture , form opinion also check episcopal church although means episcopalians sympathetic homosexual men women , certainly fairly large percentage \( experience \) good friends episcopalian minister ordained living monogamous homosexual relationship way diminishes ability minister fact significant ministry gay lesbian association community , well significant aids ministry may sound , pro homosexual crowd give support church members involved incestuous relationships \? little substitution , get although means episcopalians sympathetic incestuous men women , certainly fairly percentage \( experience \) good friends episcopalian minister ordained living monogamous relationship way diminishes ability minister fact significant ministry incest association community standards apply \? , \? 're ballpark , bestiality \? ca n't recall offhand direct statements bible regarding sex animals activity less sanction \? please avoid responses 're taking extremes would guess disproportionate percentage inerrant bible community views homosexual acts manner society large views incest scott \( 714 \) 833 scott nb rockwell com came davidians , speak davidian came opinions expressed mine represent rockwell obviously replace homosexuality statement anything murder sleeping late n't mean people would accept question whether relationships involved fact form appropriate vehicle represent christ 's relationship humanity least partly empirical question cases types human relationship rejected time always seem lead trouble think 's case slavery one argue theory , follow paul 's guidelines , 's possible christian practice , period time , people came conclusion nobody really degree control another abuse message responding asking look results christian communities endorse homosexuality \( note christian homosexuals , people see news advocating extremist agenda \) may want base decision completely kind observation , would argue 's least relevant ca n't answer request asking n't look incest association , fact association , might reasonable look course n't mean results examinations would necessarily come way part n't groups pushing possible relaxed standards produce obviously bad results clh
cbnewsg cb att com \( michael p \) subject satan kicked heaven biblical \? organization lines 20 article may 14 02 11 36 1993 athos rutgers edu tas pegasus com \( len howard \) writes hi eddie , many people believe battle described rev 12 7 12 describes casting satan heaven fall earth shalom , len howard luke 10 16 18 sent seventy returned joy , saying , lord , even devils subject unto us thy name said unto , satan lightning fall heaven prayer today spoken , please offer bridge heaven broken 're lost wild wild seas lost wild wild sea
tedr athena cs uga edu \( ted kalivoda \) subject major views trinity organization university georgia lines 30 article may 14 02 12 04 1993 athos rutgers edu , swf elsegundoca ncr com \( stan friesen \) wrote simply put , see way platonic essence could real existance essence platonic sense referent far tell imaginary concept invented provide explanation things better explained ways quite confident exist propose define beings \? thing one without definition \? definition know essence \? properties \? beings properties \? god properties \? numbers exist reality abstract entities invent \? thus , , unity god must primary , must secondary , must modal \( relating roles , modes interaction \) , since otherwise meaning saying god one see post alt messianic possibilities tri theism point view ted kalivoda \( tedr athena cs uga edu \) institute higher education university georgia athens , ga
petch gvg47 gvg tek com \( chuck \) subject daily verse lines 5 obeying truth sincere love brothers , love one another deeply , heart 1 22
hardy org \( russ hardy \) subject mary idols organization environmental research institute michigan , ann arbor , michigan lines 78 studying bible year love , familiar different denominations , traditions , common beliefs various christian groups heard various people \( outside news group \) describe idols power , money , material possessions etc things worshiped sense suppose , never really gave idols much thought reading postings news group \( found days ago \) , question first , i'm trying question anyone 's belief try push views anyone else \( n't long enough views cannot get heaven good , must understand christ bore sins cross could saved need repent , e realize every time sin , might well stick sharp stick christ 's side took punishment sins , died cross \) studies , mary never really comes know , 's seems statue mary could considered idol \? people pray statues mary \? sounds like educated christians \( educated i'm sure \) believe mary sinless \? wow hoped spend summer convincing \( one way \) tongues \( i'm reading charismatic chaos \) guess 'll study tongues parallel reading news group help give appreciated n't think issue much people educated \( though may well \) , come different tradition discussion catholics protestants catholics generally believe mary sinless protestants issue comes different sources authority protestants generally limit bible source doctrine since n't bible \( except passages one would understand way n't already believe \) , protestants n't accept catholics see continuing revelation church , though believe results consistent bible interpret posting , call yet another argument whether catholic marian idolatry \( argument prepared see \) , sign interested learning traditions catholics course major one , means one generally consider major traditions catholic , orthodox , various subsets protestantism within protestantism , 's matter want cut things days think major division accept biblical inerrancy n't also number major historical traditions , recent decades distinctions tending blur 'd identify major protestant traditions lutheran , reformed , anglican \( 're sort halfway catholic protestant \) , wesleyan , baptist , holiness , pentecostal , church christ number others historical distinctions tend important among liberal churches anymore , think current trends society church also tending make conservatives seen allies general evangelical perspective differences among various traditions still quite marked think best introduction issues read good book church history anyone wants understand church really needs understand got church history normally show traditions came , give feeling nature unfortunately i'm away library moment , n't anything specific recommend clh
vax cns muskingum edu \( jimmy buddenberg \) subject resume lines 8 i'm revise resume wondering put fact i'm christian give input think jimmy buddenberg \( vax cns muskingum edu \) student systems analyst muskingum college
liz netnews upenn edu \( mail sas upenn edu \) subject english \? organization society independent lines 11 anyone know whether , huge multi volume collection roman catholic produced , ever translated english \? i'm working would love able check translation somebody else 's email replies preferred , unless query turns general interest liz \( mail sas upenn edu \) department english ad dei university pennsylvania
rodger lonestar org \( rodger b \) subject 05 28 93 organization rodger b , plano , tx usa lines 97 weekly dialogue local pastor news day carl \( gene \) wilkes compuserve , 600 internet 600 compuserve com thoughts last week supreme court refused without comment hear appeal rensselaer , , school officials desiring distribution bibles public schools \( , 5 21 \) lower court banned local , international bible distribution group , passing bibles fifth graders aclu 's barry lynn quoted saying court 's action protected religious public schools also said schools must serve students faiths none schools bazaar rival religious groups compete converts , according lynn several , men responsible putting bibles hospitals hotels , members church tell similar stories allowed distribute bibles around schools , cannot go inside schools tell mild harassment parents want children receiving bible stranger willing continue work distance , find school 's position somewhat understand rationally logically court 's position , see sense fairness groups , hand , become nihilism \? plurality turn position \? see couple one pass condoms bibles schools think one moment seeking religious schools , countries like russia , way , practiced religious past seventy years making bible part public school curriculum st petersburg march , church worked trained 100 public school teachers teach bible , government requested hundreds ! recently heard medical doctor president gideon chapter moscow tell eagerly invited university moscow distribute bibles students given class time explain contents remember seeing photograph doctor holding bible speaking university students standing statue lenin , 's ironic ! admit two things 1 \) society , faiths equal footing country founded 2 \) allow every group school grounds could create bazaar like atmosphere city must work inclusive religions provide hearing 3 \) know said two vitality religious faith dependent upon whether public arena acknowledges valid however knew coming believe , distribution bible law abiding , caring adults schools signals culture 's movement away singular base individuals nation make moral ethical decisions think \? mail box \( let know want print letter name \) good column time teen sexuality agree moral education home , homes n't kinds morals want taught one family worked smoked dope primary family activity another acted like incest ok families , matter , often lot 'd like believe john , mc john , agree home ai n't used , homes place learn value based sexuality still believe church come play know , families speak may come church seek information , help need church building believe youth families mentioned probably disregard value free information school , \( \) note views column necessarily reflect views members church , legacy drive baptist church , plano , tx
mussack austin ibm com \( christopher mussack \) subject feel \? lines 35 see parallel stupidly call homosexual issue atheist issue please take offense comparisons homosexual feels things admit feel learns feelings classified homosexual feelings learns model sexuality seems apply feelings , fit experiences , model gives sense understanding situation models match knows feels discarded however , one wonders accepting idea gay deciding exactly means analyze feelings experiences based definition already accepted , course model hard understand listen parallel christian feels things atheist claims feel christian accepts christian theology true description feelings mean accepting model interprets experiences regards model course christianity reminder , christian , catholic , n't hate homosexuals atheists , trying understand compare foreign blind homosexual atheist seems blind \? prejudiced atheistic denial religious experience homosexual prejudiced attempts society deny sexuality \? lunch , \? chris mussack
durban berkeley edu \( david cruz uribe \) subject st maria goretti organization u c berkeley math department lines 14 reading story st maria goretti \( posted two weeks ago \) , bit confused clear daily life one sanctity , afraid n't quite understand final episode life reading correctly , \( church apparently \) felt raped sin part , one would rather die commit case i'm afraid disagree rather strongly anyone explain one \? christ , david cruz uribe ,
grant cs uct ac za \( grant wyatt \) subject satan kicked heaven biblical \? organization computer science department , university cape town lines 18 may 14 02 11 36 1993 athos rutgers edu tas pegasus com \( len howard \) writes question satan taught long time ago satan really angel god kicked heaven challenged god 's authority problem , cannot find bible bible \? , originate \? ref rev 12 7 12 deleted also read ezek 28 13 19 lucifer \( later satan \) beautiful , etc , etc grant god given us spirit fear , , ` , spirit love , power sound \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \) mind 2 tim 1 7 phone 27 21 650 4057
andromeda rutgers edu \( louie crew \) subject hate sin reply andromeda rutgers edu organization rutgers univ , new brunswick , n j lines 66 wjhovi01 ulkyvx louisville edu \( bill , lpts student \) writes scott prism gatech edu \( scott holt \) writes hate sin love sinner 've heard quite bit recently , often context discussions christianity homosexuality context really n't important question whether statement consistent christianity would think i'm grateful scott 's reflections oft quoted phrase could someone please remind scriptural source \? \( rom 12 9 n't count , kids \) manner little piece conventional wisdom applied , experience , uniformly hateful destructive billh underlining mine yes , apply would better served could alter bible reflect views scene 1 well samaria woman husband jesus yo ! everybody ! listen ! get rocks ready ! 'll good biblical fun whispering n't husband , yet know secret powers five ! \( know samaritans ! worse , 's living guy 's even married believe loving , 'll raise rocks like bible allows threaten good stoning , 'll understand much hate sin love sinner must keep priorities strait , lest folks 2 , 000 years misunderstand believe canceled sin ! scene 2 2nd thief got raw deal , man n't catch anything wrong like caught bleeding jesus , son let real clear say something wrong , repenting \? need absolutely certain cause repent , nice room heaven , think might go , cancel reservation nice pity i'm hanging , must understand , act i'm really hurting i'm god , see point teach perfect like think simple kind remark suffering going get favors , 'd better think twice ! repent , become good standing bad news , delivered us , good god ! thank ! thank ! thank ! louie louie crew , academic foundations department , rutgers university , nwk andromeda rutgers edu 201 485 snail , prefer p box 30 , newark , nj
alisonjw spider co uk \( alison j wyld \) subject homosexuality issues christiani organization spider systems limited , edinburgh , uk lines 49 hoping pass resolution less states , members church agree disagree issue , admitting sides honestly studied scriptures spirit lead different conclusions worked last year abortion issue threatened less thing , hopeful ga foster loving caring attitude people disagree view cliff slaughterbeck people would willing note church willing live kind compromise ordination women one thing definitely prevent person becoming presbyterian minister indicate n't accept ordination women argument ca n't half church accepting leaders half maybe people clh might interesting folk know church scotland \( also presbyterian church \) managed agree disagree women 's ordination 25 years reasoning congregations free call whoever wish , ministers sessions choose elders congregation wish woman , obliged , session wish , could forced \( note issue freedom call part congregation important year , church split issue , n't get back together almost 80 years \) couple years ago 25 anniversary allowing womens ordination position changed , theory , ministers elders must recognise women ordained theory , minister refused ordain woman session , refused work woman minister , could disciplined practice happened , believe unlikely happen personal view new legislation mistake , \( \) legislation worked well going start going round homosexual debate next years assembly years , motion put ban blessing sex couples \( edinburgh minister \) panel doctrine currently looking marriage , report next year matter considered debated hope interesting alison
petch gvg47 gvg tek com \( chuck \) subject daily verse lines 4 commanded \? strong courageous terrified discouraged , lord god wherever go joshua 1 9
marlatt spot colorado edu \( stuart w marlatt \) subject soc religion christian organization university colorado , boulder lines 61 article may 16 01 56 04 1993 geneva rutgers edu revdak netcom com \( andrew kille \) writes dozier \( dozier utkux1 utk edu \) wrote reading posts newsgroup pasts 4 months , become apparent group primarily active liberals , catholics , new , athiests someone might think etc since conservative , protestant , old time religion believers get exclusive christianity \? christianity , always , diverse contentious tradition , group reflects diversity , fo one , ready concede group liberal conservative , catholic , protestant , orthodox , charismatic right claim truth , everyone else christian becoming increasingly convinced us take paul 's illustration one body many parts far narrowly easy say one body represents particular sect christianity \( generally \) , parts clearly various offices ministry place met people walking god wide variety catholic , protestant , liberal , conservative , orthodox , etc willing encompass wide spectrum views within context christ ' equally sure one day , mortal coil , longer see glass see clearly , face face , ashamed things held truth ought fellowship , worship , serve called , understand called may everyone else called one fathers reformation \( help ca n't recall name \) put quite essentials , unity , liberty things , charity agree lewis \( mere christianity \) calling oneself christian implies basic , fundamental standards belief word mean anything , think us define bounds essentials bit broadly , deny place liberty questionable issues near bounds , ignore requirements charity together \? attend church , speak tongues , effectively inerrantist , though 'll grant translation , moderately pre mill , evangelical , i'm ready damn use icons , say mass latin , uphold virgin mary \( though really n't believe sinless \) , vote church membership , insist baptism salvation course , think pretty close truth would follow believed something else closer truth \? understanding reality walk christ continually evolving spend time walking , studying word , others \( often extended \) family read , much night , go south winter eliot , waste land w marlatt , \( \) 25 2 university colorado marlatt spot colorado edu 492 national center atmospheric research marlatt cgd ucar edu 497
rick granberry pts mot com \( rick granberry \) subject baptism requires faith reply rick granberry pts mot com \( rick granberry \) organization motorola paging systems group lines 26 article jhpb sarto budd lake nj us \( joseph h buehler \) writes catholics view effects baptism slightly differently , 's one primary reason baptize babies believe baptism produces change soul baby , quite independently act part baby change baby 's soul gives infant certain capabilities would without baptism since infant use intellect yet , new faculties dormant child gets older , gifts baptism come play guess would react rather strongly line thinking carried ! think army stronger mine , would take children baptize , know really best cannot possibly put kind action , crusades context teachings jesus god think advocated different approach design made appealing , called , chosen church practice seems cause effect switched , change comes get baptized answer fool according folly , lest thou also like unto answer fool according folly , lest wise conceit \( proverbs 26 4 5 \)
rexlex fnnews fnal gov subject arsenokoitai 4 organization fnal lines 258 continuing part 4 \( think \) used permission , source nt meaning arsenokoitai , implications christian ethics ministry james b deyoung w petersen recently wright 's understanding questioned different direction brief 1986 study william petersen found linguistic confusion using english word homosexuals meaning arsenokoitai 22 faulted wright english bible rendering homosexuals cor 6 9 tim 1 10 sense petersen bailey , boswell , scroggs single assertion , effect , position bailey finds homosexuals unacceptable translation anachronistic major exists contemporary thought terminology thought paul 's time \( 187 88 \) \? bases historical linguistic facts accordingly , ancient greek roman society treated male sexuality characterized person sexually sexual acts virtually forms behavior , except , acceptable christianity simply added categories natural unnatural describing actions ancient society know nothing categories homosexuals heterosexuals , assumed , words dover quoted petersen , everyone responds different times homosexual heterosexual \( 188 \) 23 contrast , modern usage virtually limits term homosexual desire propensity k , 1869 coined german term equivalent homosexual , used referring orientation , preference nothing sexual acts \( 189 \) petersen proceeds cite supplement oxford english dictionary , defines homosexual propensity desire mention acts petersen 's point using homosexuals arsenokoitai , one reads modern concept back early history equivalent concept existed \( 189 \) consequently translation inaccurate includes celibate , incorrectly heterosexuals engage homosexual acts incorrectly includes female homosexuals \( 19 89 \) prior 1869 cognitive structure , either society antiquity , within modern humanity made sence \( 189 \) foregoing clarifies petersen feels homosexual mistaken yet possible petersen one mistaken , historical linguistic grounds \? next phases paper critically examine petersen 's position justification translating arsenokoitai homosexuals historical grounds refutation foregoing opposition traslation arsenokoitai homosexuals begins historical cultural evidence since virtually everyone acknowledges word appear paul 's usage , historical settings earlier available yet much writing reveals ancient understanding homosexuality prior contemporary paul goal discover ancient conceived homosexuality , particularly homosexual orientation , way similar present day concepts peterson , bailey , boswell , scroggs claim homosexual condition , desire , propensity , inversion whatever called cannot part definition term assert either term limited acts particular kind \( boswell , active male prostitutes scroggs , pederasty \) homosexual condition unknown ancient times \( bailey petersen \) following discussion show neither positions legitimate attention devoted latter postion first former one addressed linguistic grounds regard latter position , one may rightfully ask , homosexual condition exist 1869 \? modern phenomenon \? yet universal , alleged today , must existed always including ancient times , even though lack sophistication discussing indeed , evidence show ancients , pre christian christian , knew total spectrum sexual behavior , including forms sex activity \( included \) , also sex orientation condition petersen admits \( 190 n 10 \) plato symposium \( \) may sole possible exception ancient condition discounts , however , believing even acts appear deciding factor however , significant exception , hardly worthy called exception , following additional evidence homosexual condition symposium plato gives strongest evidence knowledge homosexual condition 24 plato third sex comprised female \( \( man woman \) hence original nature , consisted three kinds human beings zeus sliced human beings half , weaken would threat gods consequently person seeks half , either one opposite sex one sex plato quotes us , , tally man , since every one shows like traces sliced two ever searching tally fit men sections composite sex first called man woman woman adulterers mostly descended sex , whence likewise derived women women sections woman great fancy men rather women , stock men sections male pursue masculine , long boyhood lasts show sliced male making men lie men 's finest boys , manly nature say shameless creatures , falsely behavior due daring , , , since quick welcome like sure evidence fact reaching maturity alone prove public career men come man 's estate boy lovers , natural interest getting children things stress custom quite live together days man sort rate born lover boys willing mate man , eagerly greeting kind well , one whether boy lover lover sort happens particular half , two thrilled love , hardly induced leave 's side single moment continue together throughout life , though could even say would one another \( \) 25 two persons offered opportunity fused together long live , even hades , says would deem offered time \( \) several observations text order contemplated , male homosexuality \( \) natural interest \( ton noun \) , \( \) modern concepts propensity inclination words , born lover boys willing mate man \( te kai \) , \( \) reflect modern claims born , e , homosexual idea \( two thrilled love , \) present even speaks mutual love ingrained mankind early estate \( ho eros kai tes , \) concept \( continue together throughout life , \) also present mention , , gay pride , pederasty , homophobia , motive , desire , passion , nature love works recognizable clearly ancients thought love \( homosexual \) apart actions speakers symposium argue motive homosexuality crucial money , office , influence , etc bring reproach \( , \) mention need love soul body \( \) tow kinds love body \( \) desire passion \( \) speakers discuss principles matters love \( \) , desires love \( \) males nature \( \) noteworthy speech socrates much attention explaining desire related love objects \( 200a \) desire felt provided present something lack object desire love socrates clearly distinguishes sort love works love \( \) ancient philosopher could think acts well disposition nature significance pederasty 26 summary , virtually every element modern discussion love homosexuality anticipated symposium plato petersen error claims ancients could think homosexual acts , inclination orientation widespread evidence supports latter 27 biblical support homosexuality inclination contexts homosexual acts adds case ancient distinction rom 1 21 28 phrases reasoning , heart , becoming foolish , desires heart mind prove paul 's concern disposition inclination along working evil \( also see vv 29 32 \) even vices \( tim 1 8 10 \) concluded \( cor 6 9 11 \) words describing people , habits people within , also lord jesus taught \( cf matt 23 28 \) inner condition important outer act one gives rise \( cf mt 5 27 \) petersen regarding particulars apparently accepted ancients practiced among , syrian , people asia minor , well greeks , according r driver 28 jewish writers record condemning example , \( moral epistles 47 7 8 \) condemns homosexual exploitation forces adult slave dress , , behave woman philo also goes length describe homosexuals day dressing women \( special laws iii , 37 41 see also virtues , 20 21 , justifies prohibition cross dressing \) even ot forbade interchange clothing sexes \( deut 22 5 \) petersen also wrong christianity creating new labels natural unnatural sexual behavior begin paul \( rom 1 26 27 \) go far back ancient greece even non christian contemporaries used plato , test , philo , , plutarch , others used words related concepts 29 linguistic grounds footnotes 22 w l petersen , arsenokoitai translated \? \( cor 6 9 tim 1 10 \) vc 40 \( 1986 \) 187 91 23 k j dover , greek homosexuality \( cambridge , harvard univ , 1978 \) 1 n 1 24 conscious fact plato 's writings may reflect athenian society , speakers symposium may reflect plato 's view however , assumed , agrees dover \( homosexuality 12 \) evidence cited 25 translation w r lamb , plato \( cambridge harvard univ , 1967 \) 141 143 note reference homosexual condition derived birth genes , logically must also derived birth 26 elsewhere symposium told heavenly love love male young men \( \) must love boys young latter outlawed \( e \) love youths permanent \( \) , lifelong abiding \( \) homosexual love considered disgrace , attitude due rulers cowardice ruled \( early charge homophobia \? \) athens honorable love openly secret \( ancient expression coming closet \) present \( lover beloved alike feel zealous concern virtue , \) petersen label symposium possible exception position inadequate significant witness greek society hundreds years time christ 27 dover \( homosexuality 12 , 60 68 \) finds homosexual desire orientation plato 's works \( phaedrus \) elsewhere philo writes homosexual acts \( special laws 3 37 42 cf de 59 63 \) josephus says homosexuality become fixed habit \( 2 273 75 \) clement alexandria matt 19 12 writes men , birth , natural aversion woman indeed naturally well marry \( 3 1 \) addressed 141 's codex laws \( consumed disease need renouncing plague , well acts \) pseudo \( 48 \) achilles \( ii 38 \) speak finally 2 45 2 great glory fall standard nature set sex boswell \( christianity 81 87 \) cites \( , \) , \( martial \) , \( cicero \) , others describe permanent , mutual homosexual relationships , even marriages even could either gay married \( nero \) gay \( \) , boswell says scroggs \( homosexuality 28 , 32 34 \) admits inversion perversion must existed past discusses possible references adult mutual homosexual lesbian relationships , \( 130 44 \) 28 see specifics r driver critical exegetical commentary deuteronomy \( edinburgh 1895 \) 250 observes prohibition cross dressing deut 22 5 mere rule conventional propriety see also dover , homosexuality 73 76 , 144 29 plato last work , seeks show virtuous citizen , condemned pederasty marriage men nature \( para \) \( laws b c 838 e \) according test 3 4 5 sodomites changed order nature jewish writers , philo \( abraham 135 137 \) josephus \( ant 1 322 3 261 , 275 ag ap 2 199 2 273 , 275 \) label sexual deviation nature finally , , first century plutarch \( love e c \) spoke homosexuality nature christians clearly invent labels natural unnatural see j b de young , meaning romans 1 implications biblical homosexual behavior jets 31 4 \( dec 1988 \) 429 41
wagner grace math uh edu \( david wagner \) subject doctrine original sin organization uh dept math lines 65 alan e alan idler aidler sol uvic ca writes alan 2 also analyze lord addressing marvel alan said unto thee , ye must born \( john 3 7 \) alan jesus clearly directing remarks nicodemus alan ruler jews \( child \) yes , jesus also made general doctrinal statement conversation flesh gives birth flesh , spirit gives birth spirit \( john 3 6 \) clearly infants born spirit thus , without baptism born image god , adam 's fallen image \( cf gen 5 3 \) righteousness , adults righteousness imputed righteousness christ , believers receive faith alan 3 ask lord would even introduce alan concept spiritual birth baptism newborn babies alan n't free sin \? point little obscure , think saying christ used innocence newborn babes metaphor spiritual birth look text , speak spiritual birth spiritual birth born spirit , twice several times also born flesh lord makes clear separate different events true scriptures refer spiritual birth birth second birth \( example , titus 3 5 \) second spiritual birth thing two births common concept birth , used symbol innocence infant born \( conceived \) new life begun neither innocent righteous similarly individual baptized , perhaps believe prior baptism , begin new life christ \( romans 6 3 , colossians 2 12 , titus 3 5 , ephesians 2 5 \) believer god 's assurance forgiveness sins , christ 's imputed righteousness references , see augsburg confession article ii , original sin , apology augsburg confession , article ii , original sin , formula concord , article , original sin , luther 's large catechism , part 4 , baptism something recent , see baptized god 's family doctrine infant baptism andrew das , available northwestern publishing house andrew graduate concordia lutheran seminary , st louis , pursuing doctoral studies yale divinity school david wagner mad reason rushes forth confessional lutheran , baptism like works , regards worthless martin luther , large catechism part 4 , baptism
dante nmsu edu \( \) subject info needed organization new mexico state university , las cruces , nm lines 58 ok , let see get information gathering venture regarding various expressions christianity churches husband come different , completely christian backgrounds lutheran met born raised church christ member first agreed lot c c , wanted move liturgical based lutheran church something little biblical based however last year , 've changing church christ number reasons one thing fundamentalist believe things bible socio cultural nature n't relate christian doctrine one spots role women believe mary women , chris validated women worthy disciples c c writings paul taken without exception told equal partner marriage lesser member , submit husband things \( hear verse one time \) take active role anything might construed putting authority men \( ie leading prayers , conducting bible studies etc \) last straw elders church came one college groups women wanted man lead study also husband really resent way everyone church feels n't conservative republican n't real christian \( got told nobody voted clinton call christian \) hence subjected service long prayers calling things flatly dont agree also n't agree c c 's dread new movement led young people , church hunting success want reasonably biblical based church women viewed whole people matter calling \( c c really looked career women \) christopher looking church deeply rooted religious convictions , adult baptism church members still bring bibles service confused 're drifting around trying find place feel loved express faith honestly without reservation anyone point us direction 'd thrilled ! i'm afraid hard go back c c even harder stay long responses would welcome family would think somewhere baptist spectrum might find 're looking however issue probably one flavor specific local churches area denomination baptists cover quite spectrum adult baptism sort choices liberal end spectrum historically 's associated movements character 're trying avoid clh
revdak netcom com \( andrew kille \) subject homosexuality organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 48 bryan whitsell \( whitsebd nextwork rose hulman edu \) wrote recently e mail mentioned \( technically , messengers n't even human ca n't case homosexuality even rape \) jude reference sodom also meaningful context lust flesh angels , application homosexual behavior general , position gay christians specious angels flesh \? feel saying lust men , flesh \( world \) \? n't heard much verse bo anchor bible volume james , peter , jude points examples given section jude distinguishing elect , wicked general hence , delivered egypt , follow moses \( , extension , god \) apostate angels sodom gomorrah quoting fornication may , often new testament , refer idolatry , flesh \( pet 1 24 \) denotes human society violent attempts self sodom represent leaders apostasy , surrounding cities correspond followers p 199 inherent reason read verse \( 7 \) literally referring actual sexual lust alien flesh inherently necessary understand referring homosexuality , outside circular reasoning already concluded sin sodom sin homosexuality place sin sodom specified , merely inferred , ezekiel 16 49 guilt sister sodom daughters pride , excess food , ease , bit aid poor needy , abominable things therefore removed saw reason \( text \) correspondent 's suggestion reason passage n't deal homosexuality guests angels men silly much solid reasons pointing sodom passages dealing homosexuality per se revdak netcom com
allegra att com \( dan \) subject christian reformed organization bell laboratories , murray hill , nj lines 8 christian reformed church allow people belong lodges , reformed church america conservatives churches similar , progressives rca currently women crc fighting issue significant fraction churches live western michigan \( fyi , went crc school calvin college \) dan
scott sdd hp com \( scott \) subject ram das \? \? lines 50 ram das \? according brochures , k richard , phd , somehow associated foundation 8 n san pedro road san rafael , ca foundation 524 san ave 203 san , ca speaks publically topics consciousness current events , written books recorded tapes similar subjects care \? wife wants go one lectures asked , said ram das greatest spiritual leader time ! several years ago wife got involved religious cult , went 9 months hell almost ended marriage quit let 's say i'm concerned ram das interest , especially recent religious cult events texas need information solid real know i'm dealing information ram das organizations shown , would interested correspondence please reply via e mail scott sdd hp com thank ! scott dictionary cults use new age , basically hindu orientation headquarters \( written \) lama foundation , identify new age san , new mexico information might read 's books , list \( autobiography \) , dance , mill dealt briefly citation given larson , new book , pp 339 41 assume bob larson , larson 's new book cults 'd warn however whole approach new age controversial sources reference book used , well bob larson , believe satanic new age conspiracy , regard hysterical however least , seems clear christian group clh
crackle ! munnari oz au \( name \) subject bertrand russell \( 2nd request \) reply adelaide edu au \( derek abbott \) organization electrical electronic eng , university adelaide lines 4 could guy wrote article bertrand russell resend copy \? sorry , accidently deleted copy forgot name
cs89mcd brunel ac uk \( michael c davis \) subject leadership magazine article organization brunel university , uxbridge , uk lines 11 i'm looking following article ``the war within anatomy leadership 3 \( 1985 \) , pp 30 48 've looked libraries 3 uk bible colleges , none subscribe magazine \( us publication , btw \) anyone access article would willing post photocopy \( presume copyright restrictions allow \? \) , please e mail thanks , michael davis \( cs89mcd brunel ac uk \)
maridai athos rutgers edu subject traveling fatima \( consecration anniversary \) lines 48 hello like share prayer propagation practice country sure going also us country 4 1 2 yrs 've illinois , usa , encountered may call traveling fatima since n't know exact translation call native language certain regions district town city , image statue lady fatima moved one home \( originating owner \) another stay family one \( 1 \) week family required pray prayers \( prayer sheets accompany image \) lady fatima move like simple procession folks picking image current prayers proceeds move next home prior notification move prayers next home welcome lady fatima image members family home must pray image may invite others \( others friends invite \) \) participate prayer time 'new' home everyday one week image moved one family next within bounded region district , goes back owner image probably going around \( philippines \) right \( somebody correct exactly since forgot \) every year , part devotion lady fatima easy facilitate back home likely next door neighbor catholic image moved next door thinking starting something like village sister family lives friends neighbors catholics practicing ones 'd like know state community laws practice violate , whatsoever , go thank comments help matter marida \( maridai ecs comm mot com \)
atterlep vela acs oakland edu \( cardinal ximenez \) subject dialogue conservatives wanted organization national association disorganized lines 14 members conservative , religious , politically active groups \( christian coalition \) \? come liberal background , 'd like talk conservative people public forum \( one \) frankly ca n't understand rationale christian basis much conservative position , 'd like try learn movement , 're part church anyone interested explaining bit conservative viewpoint \? thanks alan terlep children knew oakland university , rochester , mi lame , 'd murder atterlep vela acs oakland edu sleep rushing angels fear tread frank zappa
norris athena mit edu \( richard chonak \) subject mailing list reply norris mit edu organization l'organisation , c'est moi lines 16 june newsletter latin liturgy association new e mail discussion group latin l , forum people interested classical latin , medieval latin , neo latin languages choice latin \( course \) whatever vulgar languages feel comfortable using please prepared translate request field open name topic ! order subscribe , bitnet users send interactive message form tell listserv psuvm sub latin l name internet users send message \( without subject line \) address listserv psuvm psu edu message read sub latin l name subscribed , one may participate sending messages latin l psuvm latin l psuvm psu edu richard aquinas chonak , norris mit edu
norris athena mit edu \( richard chonak \) subject hate sin reply norris mit edu organization l'organisation , c'est moi lines 17 article may 16 01 56 47 1993 6695 geneva rutgers edu , wjhovi01 ulkyvx louisville edu \( bill , lpts student \) writes scott prism gatech edu \( scott holt \) writes hate sin love sinner question whether statement consistent christianity would think i'm grateful scott 's reflections oft quoted phrase could someone please remind scriptural source \? 's scriptural , comes age , think something , , sounds like love errant , error doubt someone else know particular minted phrase guess , 'd blame \) st augustine , seems gift richard aquinas chonak , norris mit edu sometimes , 's necessary act believed
mike hahn z5 fidonet org \( mike hahn \) subject translations lines 18 alison j wyld wrote ajw anyone know english language edition show ajw verse \( even chapter \) numbers clh original neb put verse numbers margin kenneth wuest 's expanded translation new testament puts range verse numbers next top paragraph expanded translation quite verbose though suitable detailed study quick reading mike golded 2 41 internet mike hahn z5 fidonet org via catalyst bbs port elizabeth , south africa \( alt za \) 27 41 34 , v32bis hst
mike hahn z5 fidonet org \( mike hahn \) subject doctrine original sin lines 32 stephen creps writes sac also , know sac bible says everyone must baptized enter heaven exactly say \? sac everyone includes infants , unless scripture sac contrary , e exception since exception listed sac bible , must assume \( safe side \) bible means sac says , everyone must baptized enter heaven think see exception case cornelius household , mentioned acts course , baptised , god showed accepted giving holy spirit means already acceptable god baptism , suddenly died would gone heaven case seems far fetched ancestor mine missionary worked among jealous christianity , poisoned first convert could baptised surely still went heaven \? i'm inclined agree comment recorded time neglect baptism , contempt , condemns mike internet mike hahn z5 fidonet org via catalyst bbs port elizabeth , south africa \( alt za \) 27 41 34 , v32bis hst
revdak netcom com \( andrew kille \) subject ethical \? organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 19 quick comment baptist , find idea baptism \( news report fact accurate , seldom regarding religion \) offensive pastor seems view baptism one seems demand ceremony even comprehension choice absent baptize converts , one deceived hearing word likely convert fact grace god might work situation , harm done waiting day two baptist believe membership church include half baked \( best \) converts church fellowship \? somehow feel validity turning loose \? kind evangelism certainly baptist , probably christian , either revdak netcom com
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject soc religion christian organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 23 article may 16 01 56 14 1993 6674 geneva rutgers edu , sfp lemur cit cornell edu \( sheila patterson \) wrote atheists agnostics read list n't christian intention ever becoming one earth waste time mine participating christian discussion list \? n't think draw borders around newsgroups , christians free read post entries atheist newsgroups , muslims free groups well 's individual define time schedule concerning postings problems noticed various newsgroups method telling 'i right , true theists atheists hopefully constructive dialogue groups would help concerning assumptions views cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
seanna bnr ca \( seanna \( \) watson \) subject mary 's assumption organization bell northern research , ottawa , canada lines 20 article may 14 02 11 24 1993 athos rutgers edu david bernard central sun com writes response question jesus' parents would sanctified beyond normal humanity elizabeth greeted mary , elizabeth said something effect mary , women , blessed , appears exactly places mary beyond sanctification normal humanity would think simply pregnant incarnation almighty god would enough make mary blessed among women , whether special spiritual attributes find special mary needs , less human jesus gets seanna watson bell northern research , pray end living , \( seanna bnr ca \) ottawa , ontario , canada philosophies creeds , god find people busy opinion , opinions \? oh opinions planting trees sowing seeds , 're bnr 's , 're mine knew 'd left somewhere fred kaan
seanna bnr ca \( seanna \( \) watson \) subject soc religion christian organization bell northern research , ottawa , canada lines 26 article may 16 01 56 14 1993 6674 geneva rutgers edu sfp lemur cit cornell edu \( sheila patterson \) writes atheists agnostics read list n't christian intention ever becoming one earth waste time mine participating christian discussion list \? find remark awfully arrogant would venture say many people christians , one point lives intention ever becoming christian certainly one person quite thankful christians willing continue talk , despite appearance might waste time mine \( even married one \) always prepared give answer everyone asks give reason hope respect \( 1 peter 3 15 \) seanna watson bell northern research , pray end living , \( seanna bnr ca \) ottawa , ontario , canada philosophies creeds , god find people busy opinion , opinions \? oh opinions planting trees sowing seeds , 're bnr 's , 're mine knew 'd left somewhere fred kaan
rohvm1 rohmhaas com subject immaculate conception \( immaculate organization rohm haas company lines 3 forgot one thing sinned fallen short glory god mark
eas asu edu \( \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \) subject islam satanic \? \? \? organization arizona state university lines 80 dear fellow christians , dinner last night bible study group discussion difference christianity islam shocked hear bible study teacher said mohammad indeed prophet satan said , \? \? believe , moslem friends kind nice , even sometimes feel wish could like \( point view , n't sin much \) come satan , could personalities tell truth , n't know much islam know believe god , believe day judgement i'm asking opinions islam teaching important want discuss whether saved want discuss politic related islam p post bit listserv christia , soc religion christian , bit listserv catholic christ , lord , smile jesus loves eas asu edu let start saying right newsgroup discussion islam , since 's group suspect point teacher making specifically islam indeed 's going impossible see getting within , since question whether non christians saved heart classic christian view , think people believed last century , christianity \( course judaism \) religion founded god , religions worshipped false gods , came satan less corollary another traditional view one christians \( possibly jews \) saved need mean 's truth religion , members intentionally satanic , order effective snare , satanic alternatives would attractive thus might contain kinds truth , wisdom spiritual insights would missing one thing knowledge salvation christ background teacher 's remarks suspect means discussion islam necessarily relevant point 's anything intrinsically wrong may teach fine code behavior , practitioners may wonderful people salvation requires follower christ , could still satanic invention reasonable deduction classic protestant position christianity says salvation n't matter kind nice good things , encourage one able enough saved salvation requires christ \( please forgive protestant terms 's catholic equivalent similar implications , different terms \) religion may quite attractive visible ways n't christ , 's like diet consists food looks wonderful , tastes great , missing essential food element end dying let clear specifically advocating position i'm trying \( usual \) clarify issues indeed relatively uncommon christians believe religions satanic christians regard beliefs unfortunate past part general move within christianity last century non judgemental god christians find hard believe god would allow anybody really rotten person end hell , find hard envision real spiritual forces work world things like creating attractive alternatives christianity whether actually sound basis shift decision people need make clh
mayo cs utk edu \( wallace mayo \) subject consecration russia reply free catholic mailing list catholic american edu lines 7 remind list booklet fatima send one wants lady fatima 's peace plan heaven 30 pages length includes fatima story want one , let know wallace mayo mayo cs utk edu
attmail com \( mike miller \) subject consecration anniversary reply free catholic mailing list catholic american edu lines 6 change subject , fr allowed notre dame \? notre dame anti catholic university allowed show notre dame believe freedom speech \? glad allow speak mike
mizzou1 bitnet auvm american edu \( elizabeth stevens \) subject easy way reply free catholic mailing list catholic american edu organization university missouri columbia campus computing , 314 882 2000 lines 59 easy vs hard easy \? rare personal talk mother last year said father raising four children , try raise us world strictly raised norwegian lutheran community felt would alienated would create problems words , parent tolerant , loving thing raised us without conflict , without saw unreasonable demands always accepting , matter circumstances happened grew believing situation ethics never absolutes believed loving god , concept god never involved justice punishment , concept may someday held responsible things offended sins world told ok parents good , honest moral people raised four extremely honest children yet , coming complete knowledge god \( includes knowledge justice punishment \) committed believe many , many grave sins lived partner outside marriage , married divorced \( physical abuse apparent hope change n't married person first place \) parents felt loving , kind thing allowing us , imposing standards us , accepting unquestioningly everything without judgement counsel today , absolutely appalling look back accept without word takes dare help souls must speak say unpopular difficult people want hear must able say hard , say christ would , love compassion involves risk perhaps someone love may want hear stay away life dust long comfort life highest priority , fail god fail come contact wonder many engage sex outside marriage , support right abortion , engage homosexuality , commit range sins plentiful time ever heard quiet , thoughtful , loving friend things wrong one ever told wrong , saw multitudes around living way seemed like good , decent people \( would n't kick dogs beat elderly babies \) difficult sinners without genuine prayer life hear holy spirit hear loving friend think next time holy spirit tells friend error , n't want cause trouble righteous prayers great power , n't forget christ 's lips hands earth n't afraid simply voice truth situation calls say prayer ask holy spirit love guidance ways may realize , brother 's keeper jesus mary , elizabeth
wwarf silver ucs indiana edu \( wayne j warf \) subject atf burns dividian ranch update nntp posting host silver ucs indiana edu organization indiana university distribution usa lines 47 article nate 1485 735408842 psygate psych indiana edu nate psygate psych indiana edu \( nathan engle \) writes 34aej7d cmuvm bitnet writes ah yes , see liberal weenies come woodwork defend burning children actually liberals 've seen burning children would far preferred davidians set fire burned children death , n't believe responsibility fire \( almost complete absense attempts escape blaze \) placed door federal authorities far , credible evidence bd 's set fires atf fbi 's law type would never lie cover ass , right \? probably drooled watching tv coverage wife got convenient plastic pan christmas probably like nazi germany , well yeah , nazis know liberals love nazis , love , share surprising similarity beliefs method oh yeah , atf fbi claims , according media , survivors number seems vary minute minute yeah , information trickles funny works funny , yeah , funny n't wait fbi spokesdroid latest reversal facts proclaiming bd 's burned death nathan engle software psychology department indiana university nate psygate psych indiana edu silver ucs indiana edu wayne j warf wwarf ucs indiana edu speak clinton gore cia fbi dea assassinate bomb wod bor atf irs resist nsa christian god satan apocalypse zog nazi socialist communist explosive fundamentalist revolution nsc federal reserve constitution gold fema
blake nevada edu \( rawlin blake \) subject waco clinton press conference , part 1 lines 30 nntp posting host virtual nevada edu organization university nevada system computing services article 1993apr21 ringer cs utsa edu whughes lonestar utsa edu \( william w hughes \) writes whughes lonestar utsa edu \( william w hughes \) subject waco clinton press conference , part 1 date wed , 21 apr 1993 16 06 42 gmt article feustelc5tw49 7p5 netcom com feustel netcom com \( david feustel \) writes predict outcome study went wrong federal assault waco result future assaults type conducted full scale military operations explicit shoot kill directives mean n't already \? could fooled remember waco ! government decide murder next \? maybe \? opinions mine n't care blame university state well , seems n't learn lessons history \? hoping kent state taught us lesson apparently apparently government murder anyone choose still rawlin blake blake nevada edu sig good sig
wg2 waii com \( mike johnson \) subject waco clinton press conference , part 2 organization western geophysical exploration products lines 4 nntp posting host wg2 waii com anyone else notice question federal laws violated brushed aside \? 'd like know laws violated , evidence batf warrants based
tms cs umd edu \( tom swiss \( swift , , swiss ! \) \) subject clinton wants national id card , aka ussr style internal passport organization reality liberation front \( pixels people ! \) lines 26 johnston cyberia win net \( robert johnston \) writes 'bout embed everyones skull \? ca n't lose without already dead \( ergo , need treatment \) close , birth implant smart chip behind ear skin skull hypo high carbon content glass chip would reprogrammed age pertinent medical , correctional , data behave 'll input permenant record forgot part small shaped charge anyone tries tamper , explodes kills oh , shaped charge set remote control get line properly patriotic citizens nothing fear tom swiss tms cs umd edu born die keep laws brain ! 's funny 'bout peace , love understanding \? nick lowe sig contains animal products tested animals congress shall make law respecting establishment religion , prohibiting free exercise thereof abridging freedom speech , press right people peaceably assemble , petition government redress grievances constitution united states america
cellar org \( steve \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization cellar bbs public access system lines 32 chiu io nosc mil \( francis chiu \) writes brent irvine \( irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \) wrote failed mention davidians pouring kerosene lighting plain view brent , i'm still waiting see evidence fire got started , i'm going tell far keep talking davidians pouring kerosene , stop think second possible stove lamp knocked started fire , davidians pouring water \( wrong solution doubt much better states mind \) try put \? way , far standing davidians saw setting place fire \? oh , case new town , microwave ovens n't work well 's electricty 0 get facts post next time ! f chiu first fbi said saw two members cult start fire fbi never lies second , first started opposite ends compound time thirdly , fire spread quickly help without accelerate cellar org \( steve \) cellar bbs \( 215 \) 539 3043
ccdarg dct ac uk \( alan greig \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! distribution world organization dundee institute technology lines 19 article da2 menudo uh edu , hadcrjam admin uh edu \( miller , jimmy \) writes problem fbi monolithic entity requires everybody involved keep mouths shut tended behave like total idiots , make , either one nutcase agent , serves purpose blame whole agency great deal documentation exists exactly phenomenon especially regarding vietnam mai lai \( sp \? \) massacre i'm suggesting started purpose even know accidentally started \( contributed \) sure initial reaction lie remember iranian airliner us navy mistook fighter shot \? alan greig janet greig uk ac dct dundee institute technology internet greig dct ac uk tel \( 0382 \) 308810 \( int 44 382 308810 \) never underestimate power human stupidity
dct ac uk \( john bell \) subject holocaust revisited organization dundee institute technology lines 37 article 1993apr21 gozer mv com , gozer mv com \( kevin l mcbride \) writes u government 's campaign persecution genocide branch davidians resounding success heil clinton ! heil reno ! gestapo alive well living washington , c real \? people dumb enough give money possessions guy says 's jesus deserve get anyway , killed feds 's goddam hero 's dead an' i'm happy ! ! ! ! ! kevin , agrees david koresh probably first rate nutcase firmly believes bill rights guaranteed right religious fanatic government guilty violating civil rights 1st degree murder ok , small , represented congress religious group going persecute next going torch church rolled copy constitution \? think i'm going sick john bell dundee fc league champions 61 62 runners 06 07 48 49 dundee league cup wins 51 52 52 53 runners 67 68 80 81 scotland scottish cup win runners 1925 , 1953 , 1964
cower csli stanford edu \( richard cower \) subject cnn report fbi atf killing americans organization csli , stanford university distribution usa lines 16 cnn reported atf fbi begun killing everyone united states press release stated action required bugs revealed many people something illegal homes , statistical data indicated n't might someday something illegal atf spokesperson , shot , stated would clean things citizens gathered groups 100 , fbi indicated burn , like waco n't decided new proposed energy tax enter , irs representative stated 're looking tax code determine taxes really end death many dead americans , n't want overlook anything atf agent ran room , shot stay tuned rich
gaucher sam cchem berkeley edu subject dayton gun buy back \( boston gun buy back \) organization university california , berkeley lines 37 nntp posting host sam cchem berkeley edu originator gaucher sam cchem berkeley edu article cbnews cb att com lvc cbnews cb att com \( larry cipriani \) writes according wnci 97 9 fm radio morning , dayton , ohio operating gun buy back giving 50 every functional gun turned ran money one day , passing 50 vouchers sort looking funds keep operating another media event brought hci something similar pro gun people \? example , pay 100 anyone lawfully protects life firearm \? sounds bit tacky , hey , whatever works larry cipriani l v cipriani att com ideas 1 \) free library card look fbi uniform crime report shows good hci lying teeth , 2 \) free rtd transit pass allow anti gunners tour south central los angeles convince people living n't need guns protect police \( n't lose pass , 'll need get \) , 3 \) free bus ride vermont , almost gun control , curiously enough , almost crime either , 4 \) free calculator , since anti gunners unable figure small percentage guns owned america used commit violent crime lee gaucher nra opinions gaucher sam cchem berkeley edu one else 's
irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \( brent irvine \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization university illinois urbana champaign lines 19 article geraldo cc utexas edu mikey ccwf cc utexas edu \( strider \) writes irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \( brent irvine \) writes cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) writes mfrhein wpi wpi edu \( michael frederick rhein \) writes ever hear electric ovens microwaves \? popular electric stoves outside metro areas especially hey , einstein , ever tried use electric stove microwave without electricity \? 's shut weeks , courtesy local fbi assault squad calm flame wars anything \( guns , anything \) personal opinions \? , brent irvine yes think irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \?
holland cs colostate edu \( douglas craig holland \) subject 43 1 nntp posting host beethoven cs colostate edu organization colorado state university , computer science department lines 37 article 1993apr21 iitmax iit edu draughn iitmax iit edu \( mark draughn \) writes followups talk politics guns article transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares writes article ulowell ulowell edu , jrutledg cs ulowell edu \( john lawrence rutledge \) writes , person keeps gun home 43 times likely die , home , gunshot likely kill intruder sounds like apples 'n' oranges case , anybody tried make obvious counter study \? numbers someone keep gun home \? , ratio dying home gunshot killing intruder , people keep guns homes \? , ratio unarmed people shot death homes v unarmed people kill intruders \? worse 6 1 \? inquiring minds want know n't know specific ratio , earlier post says gun 33 times likely defend someone \( including times gun n't fired , scares perpetrator away \) kill someone \( including self defense \) post kind long , 'll glad dig email anyone asks doug holland doug holland anyone tries take away freedom holland cs colostate edu speech pry pgp key available e mail cold , dead lips ! !
bob hobbes dtcc edu \( bob rahe \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization delaware technical community college lines 37 nntp posting host hobbes dtcc edu article c5tenu 112f ns1 nodak edu green plains nodak edu \( bill green \) writes would like see serious discussion incident believe moves made right proper , still problems tactics watching abc special tonight , well cnn nightline , question atf fbi actions \? 1 \) could possible taken koresh outside compound time feb 28th raid \? yes , think reported seems like cowboy movie style attack needed reason 2 \) could wait resulted different outcome answer probably yes consider worst thing could happened waited \? hint whatever could worse happen one point , i'm fan janet reno , like way balls go ahead take full responsibility seems like waffle boy problems figuring stood issue statement taking full responsibility totally meaningless consequences fully responsible disaster \? note file \? \? slick already called people bunch crazy people dismissed idea resign n't take balls take responsibility hell , rate take full responsibility skin nose bob rahe , delaware tech comm college aids , drugs , abortion internet bob hobbes dtcc edu n't liberals kill \? ci , 525 genie bob rahe save whales kill babies \?
viking iastate edu \( dan sorenson \) subject holocaust revisited organization iowa state university , ames ia lines 41 1993apr21 dct ac uk dct ac uk \( john bell \) manages know , john , kept follow line talk politics guns , might taken bit seriously would least implied backbone , perhaps modicum willingness present views support guess know better people dumb enough give money possessions guy says 's jesus deserve get really \? 's interesting , always opinion people dumb enough keep monarchy around support tax funds said monarchy merely deserve get , example \? nothing \? enjoy helping foot anyway , killed feds killed people , including one child last report \? federal agent license kill 's cnn indicating atf fbi actually start fires would mean feds killed 100 people 're hot assign blame , make sure n't overlook obvious 's goddam hero montgomery n't much hero , either amazing different things look side pond , n't \? think makes much difference usa , though , good reason vote 'll take rhetoric bit seriously right , 're merely waste trans atlantic bandwidth 's dead an' i'm happy ! ! ! ! ! proof positive ignorance really bliss dan sorenson , dod 1066 z1dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu censors read , say n't blame usenet post exotic , distant machines meet exciting , unusual people flame
andy sail stanford edu \( andy freeman \) subject gun like american express card organization computer science department , stanford university distribution usa lines 32 article 93110 uicvm uic edu jason kratz u28037 uicvm uic edu writes article 1993apr19 csd newshost stanford edu , andy sail stanford edu \( andy freeman \) says wrong people legally carry concealed il circumstances many people carry concealed accuracy really much expect \? said n't another post referred illinois statutes looked law concealed carry type complete law post later would like prove correct using accurate information put sections good let 's look sections 'll prove point \( \) person commits offense unlawful use weapons knowingly \( 4 \) carries possesses vehicle concealed person except land abode fixed place business pistol , revolver , stun gun taser firearm note n't affect concealed carry \( look word except \) always helps read law commenting would prudent carry concealed \? someone home \? note legal , lot common people qualify one andy
andy sail stanford edu \( andy freeman \) subject gun like american express card organization computer science department , stanford university lines 42 article cmm 0 90 2 thomasp surt ifi uio thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio writes n't remember figures exactly , 3500 deaths texas 1991 caused guns beeing killed car accidents ! \( yes , could low sentences high poverty could influence figures 're still pretty high right \? \? \) also believe texas liberal 'gun laws' usa 'd wrong note texas n't unique gun deaths car deaths , states happens extremely strict gun laws oops much meaning n't clear comparision means anything anyway car accidents unintentional gun deaths n't , 're going make , let 's least honest suffer others agree one , also live therefor 'll give 'freedom' \( note '' \) give \? gun control n't benefits , fails standard insurance \? \? 'll pay others note insurance gives something return gun control n't hell trying say \? \? live society \( usa counted one \) question much 's half question rest get sacrifice answer second question nothing , gun control , n't ask first question getting nothing means sacrifice justified andy
aj359 cleveland freenet edu \( christopher c morton \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 29 reply aj359 cleveland freenet edu \( christopher c morton \) nntp posting host slc4 ins cwru edu previous article , nl oracle com \( jason durbin \) says even half speculations conspiracy made true , would expect people calling atf , fbi , texas rangers , congress branches us government immediately disbanded exceptions jeez , people really beleive crap \? also beleive zionist occupation government tooth fairy \? leave anti semitism anti gun types like holly silva fact calling batf quite time outlaw agency run contempt laws supposedly enforce admittedly mistakes made attribute malice rather stupidity \? attribute acts fbi stupidity attribute acts batf malice senator dennis deconcini held hearings misconduct smarter , 'd opinions
f gautjw ccsvax sfasu edu subject arlen specter 's address \? organization stephen f austin state university lines 23 article 1993apr22 ccsvax sfasu edu , f gautjw ccsvax sfasu edu writes article 1993apr22 icd ab com , kdw icd ab com \( kenneth whitehead \) writes anybody got arlen spectre 's address \? want write thank showing leadership demand congressional investigation waco mess ken talking man federal attorney much frustrate proper investigation jfk assassination house sub committee assassinations fox hen house \? \? \? please note comment intended flame ken 's call congressional leadership conduct proper investigation merely call attention hazard specter involved anyone took way , apologize joe gaut super state , really f gautjw ccsvax sfasu edu matter actually happened remember alamo truth government chooses remember waco tell justice wants happen jim garrison , new orleans , la
mfrhein wpi wpi edu \( michael frederick rhein \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization worcester polytechnic institute lines 35 nntp posting host wpi wpi edu article isgtec isgtec com robert isgtec com \( robert osborne \) writes michael frederick rhein \( mfrhein wpi wpi edu \) wrote article 93109 13404334aej7d cmuvm bitnet 34aej7d cmuvm bitnet writes napalm , let wood stove inside ignite someone else pointed , would stove use warm day texas agree original theory anything , since utilities turned might using wood stoves cook meals rob robert osborne ! uunet ca ! isgtec ! robert robert isgtec com rob others debating wood stove original post claimed atf fbi pumping napalm building hopes wood stove inside would ignite would wood stove lit first place \? would n't lit heating purposes weather texas everyone claims cooking stop think cs gas pumped building presume everyone wearing gas masks \( either bought type makeshift type \) going 6 hours n't know ever around cs , exposed cs gas part army training , know without mask uncomfortable makes eyes water , nose run , makes sick stomach mask difficult drink water much less eat question cooking food \? buy lantern could knocked caused fire stove used cooking \( unless even crazy atf fbi claim \) michael
lairdb crash cts com \( laird p broadfield \) subject need senate bill numbers house resolution numbers organization well , head top , arm side , two legs lines 24 mcimail com 0005111312 mcimail com \( peter nesbitt \) writes want get involved fight save gun rights first , need get little educated 've reading books get hands , sifting hundreds messages internet anyone tell obtain info \? surely way obtain copies anti gun legislation 's washington house document room reached 1 202 225 need number document want \( e g \) 'll happy send tell 's going big stack , surly sounding guy answers really awful hand back envelope come run room quickly n't tell senate document room important deal likes , answer requests hill mail laird p broadfield lairdb crash cts com ucsd , nosc ! crash ! lairdb hi ! i'm shareware signature ! send 5 use , send 10 manual !
lairdb crash cts com \( laird p broadfield \) subject request advice waist bags fanny organization well , head top , arm side , two legs lines 13 angel qdeck com burge qdeck com \( bill burge \) writes \( 've heard color strip bianchi put identify bianchi fanny pack law enforcement recieved flyer indicating color combinations easy sighting led sales bianchi \) well , easy decision bianchi anything laird p broadfield lairdb crash cts com ucsd , nosc ! crash ! lairdb hi ! i'm shareware signature ! send 5 use , send 10 manual !
kdw icd ab com \( kenneth whitehead \) subject evil tax dollars work , atf burns ranch etc etc nntp posting host sora icd ab com organization allen bradley company , inc lines 137 mark 'mark' sachs mbs110 psuvm psu edu , representing students increased beverage access \( \) , writes oh \? smoke flames start three different places \? particular , three different places apv 's \? well , saw start one place tank punched hole wall , withdrew flames came spread quickly direction 30 mph wind blowing saw diagram usa today yesterday , fires started 2 3 holes tanks made terrible , negligent accident government start fire , n't people trying get compound \? maybe could n't 've often people could get burned alive upstairs 2 story house fire , happens time sealed rooms , trying avoid gas , n't know fire surrounded \? remember israelis hiding sealed rooms desert storm avoid gas bearing \? , mark , really college student \? maybe ought stop worrying increased beverage access start clearing head ever heard questioning authority \? besides oh , n't know i'm even bothering ok , 'll buy seem totally clueless find tremendously chilling many people seem eager believe murderous , heavily armed religious cult , despite much evidence contrary n't murderous 'd never harmed even threatened anybody attacked force using military weapons hardware far evidence , talking \? everything feds said 've retracted practically soon get questioned detail maybe increased beverage access buddies , sitting around bar stuff like shoulda killed 'em 51 days ago n't feel way , 're probably one people still saying klinton give guy chance , n't even know 's gonna ! \( \) thought experiment suppose exact thing happened bush administration would answer \? would still prefer believe cultists \? \( , n't really expect response challenge \) problem , n't questions scare us minds apparently developed answer yes ! f cking heartbeat ! thought experiment would mindlessly knees mouth open , sucking anything feds said bush president \? , comeback \? \( ok , go ahead , say read lips , new taxes p \) , mr clinton elected , people believe campaign promisses would respected got office um , n't politicians elected \? great degree bush broke one promise , maybe two \( taxes guns \) held accountable course , took better part 4 years slick 's office 101 days 's broken lots imagine 'll also held accountable \( see campaign buttons abc anybody clinton \) particular reason gummint decided slaughter eighty people \? , like , plain evil , \? wake one day , stretch yawn , throw dart map united states figure oppress day \? i'm eager know hmmm apparently got nobody 's claiming anything stupid mistake bunch incompetent public employees normally n't get kind scrutiny mess far picked davidians , knows \? maybe figured nobody 'd care politically incorrect group bunch fundies texas prairie maybe figured 'd go run bds religious services \( reason feds gave timing raid \) rather running resistance maybe knew bds n't anywhere near violent spin doctors trying tell public maybe afraid try kind thing maybe atf 's budget approval seem favor something dramatic whenever case course , reasoning n't matter , , time , people paying attention bill clinton cooler theme music darth vader \? mean stupid n't stop thinking tomorrow diabolical laughter \? 've ever heard hillary 's diabolical giggle waffle man seems lost sense humor look good cape \? n't know , never seen one probably looks fat faced , like suit saw rose garden day , could n't get much starting look like teddy kennedy things must investigated first n't worry , things investigated go back beer , 've heard lot people compare bill clinton jimmy carter , 'd like go record saying n't think 's fair jimmy carter veteran , personal character even though ca n't agree carter 's policies , always believed telling truth , best understood ca n't say fat cat ken whitehead \( kdw odin icd ab com \)
whughes lonestar utsa edu \( william w hughes \) subject batf fbi revenge keywords batf fbi korash child abuse guns murder control nntp posting host lonestar utsa edu organization university texas san antonio lines 27 article mjones fenway mjones donald aix kingston ibm com writes whughes lonestar utsa edu \( william w hughes \) writes already called senators , legislators governor demanding warrants unsealed , involved atrocity \( including president , attorney general governor \) suspended pending investigation welcome amerika ! let 's see first , want everybody president suspended pending investigation , refer amerika \? guess remembered take irony supplements morning , eh \? sigh standard procedure suspend law enforcement officers , assign administrative \( non enforcement \) duties , investigation possible misconduct going administration given indication occur case given president , attorney general governor involved decisions led waco massacre , also suspend activities regarding law enforcement given positions , equates enforced vacation remember waco ! government decide murder next \? maybe \? opinions mine n't care blame university state
\( \) subject bd 's 're paranoid freaks organization trinity college , hartford , ct lines 18 article 1r6p8oinn8hi clem handheld com , jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) wrote made mind waco , sure seems group devoted government following fanatics willing believe whatever government wants tell , without shred doubt , thought thier sure get shrill whenever belief structure shaken kinda reminds bds , n't \? jim go hell i'm government following fanatic sweeping generalizations evince ignorance supposed \? let \? fuck fuck atf , 've done right first time joe kusmierczak mail trincoll edu
\( \) subject clinton joins list genocidal socialist leaders organization trinity college , hartford , ct lines 27 article rdt usenet ins cwru edu , bu008 cleveland freenet edu \( brandon ray \) wrote perhaps 've rock last days \? batf fbi federal agencies clinton admitted front news cameras janet reno \( future attorney general \) gave full briefing planned , gave go ahead maybe , possibly , makes bit responsible \? perhaps 've rock since , say , turn century one man supposed review every single freaking governmental action , every day \? 's executive branch reviewed plan said go , n't architect n't , hand , implementing yes , responsible sense briefed ! shit happens sounds like callous way dismiss deaths 90 people , ca n't understand people get bent accidental death suicide \( \? could take months \) total fucking sociopath child molester crazed followers opposing u intervention bosnia like billy boy said think people much time hands , screwed priorities ho joe kusmierczak mail trincoll edu
\( \) subject clinton joins list genocidal socialist leaders organization trinity college , hartford , ct lines 21 article clem handheld com , jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) wrote seem make two points one ultimately federal agencies mention , since koresh apparently different view point baptist upbringing , worthy protection religious persecution messiah , christ within us \? must comforting belong government approved religion baptists cult , two , btw , definitions dictionary cult 've yet meet group baptists stockpiling cambell 's soup 16 's ar 15 's banging marrying thirteen yuear olds 're sorry son bitch ca n't draw distinction two things people like cheapen constitution using defend sociopaths n't deserved get life chill paranoia joe kusmierczak mail trincoll edu
\( \) subject batf fbi right thing waco organization trinity college , hartford , ct lines 3 ditto great post joe kusmierczak mail trincoll edu
pyron skndiv dseg ti com \( dillon pyron \) subject ammo fire \( waco burning \) lines 52 nntp posting host skndiv dseg ti com reply pyron skndiv dseg ti com organization ti dseg vax support article world std com , world std com \( harry carter \) writes sunshine cco caltech edu \( tom renner \) writes v111qheg ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( p vasilion \) writes imagine happens magazine explodes \? bullets go flying every imho , gunshot wounds actually caused magazines went minor technical point unless cartridge contained \( example chamber gun \) goes , little interest happens quoting hatcher 's notebook sporting arms ammunition institute reported demonstration made taking large quantity metallic cartridges shotgun shells burning fire oil soaked wood cartridges shells exploded time time , general explosion throwing bullets shot distance throughout test men conducting remained within 20 ft fire without injured way material cartridge shells composed usually fly feet tests conducted national rifle association , rifle pistol cartridges exploded heat ordinary carton , neither fragments cartridge cases bullets penetrated cardboard scientists care try kitchen \? \) goes years back \( born year , legally drink \) , tried found 8 ft deep lined 10 ft put large \( one industrial sized beans cans \) stuffed oily rags scraps wood bottom lighting fire , lowered box 38 spc heard pops , one solid bang several thought , boldly climbed find none bullets left , several shells around bottom well boards died smoke inhalation 5 6 shells still live primers ! dillon pyron opinions expressed ti dseg lewisville vax support sender unless otherwise stated \( 214 \) 462 3556 \( i'm \) \( 214 \) 492 4656 \( i'm home \) texans vote robin hood need pyron skndiv dseg ti com solutions , gestures padi dm 54909
rats cbnewsc cb att com \( morris cat \) subject truth waco organization distribution usa lines 7 videos original batf attack bd church , anyone happen see batf agents highest structure , koresh 's room \? n't recall seeing batf agents higher roof lowest structures , made assumption batf firing tower info rounds came roof \?
hadcrjam admin uh edu \( miller , jimmy \) subject clinton joins list genocidal socialist leaders organization university houston administrative computing lines 44 distribution world nntp posting host uhad2 admin uh edu x news reader vms news 1 24 reply \( \) 's message fri , 23 apr 1993 15 30 05 gmt 1993apr23 153005 8237 starbase trincoll edu \( \) writes 've yet meet group baptists stockpiling cambell 's soup 16 's ar 15 's banging marrying thirteen yuear olds 're sorry son bitch ca n't draw distinction two things people like cheapen constitution using defend sociopaths n't deserved get life chill paranoia paranoid , government , even guy talking originally , think simply paying attention bunch people living lot guns nearby wierd texas family , quiet taxpayers extremely con views , something like 10 rifles shotguns two person home mine , n't live anymore shotgun apartment texas child protective services \( loves find child abuse \) found , repeat , evidence abuse first looked bd , saying see none kids released evidence koresh banging anyone wives law stockpile \( \) weapons campbell 's soup hard evidence form actual hardware \( write \) prove bd really proscribed weapons feel loonies , indication ever bothered anyone gone wrong ways wrong reasons , batf fbi busy child abuse angle n't got leg stand right involved abuse cases anyway real danger bd 's going rampage , officers state texas , probably getting per verse bit pleasure getting torque feds fucking something state semper fi , jammer jim miller texas university '89 '91 n't speak uh , bad , could use help become one student billing system student billing system power finds way take stand stand , ordinary man rik emmet , gil moore , mike levine triumph
irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \( brent irvine \) subject atf burns dividian ranch update distribution usa organization university illinois urbana champaign lines 53 article goa usenet ucs indiana edu wwarf silver ucs indiana edu \( wayne j warf \) writes article c5v9fv krt news cso uiuc edu irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \( brent irvine \) writes article c5uhuo awq usenet ucs indiana edu wwarf silver ucs indiana edu \( wayne j warf \) writes article nate 1485 735408842 psygate psych indiana edu nate psygate psych indiana edu \( nathan engle \) writes yeah , information trickles funny works funny , yeah , funny n't wait fbi spokesdroid latest reversal facts proclaiming bd 's burned death wo n't believe anything government says , press reliable according logic , base statements \? wild speculation laced healthy dose paranoia \? moron illiterate \? facts fbi neither proclaimed monday suddenly n't facts anymore tuesday press conference n't pay attention one source , neither abandon critical thinking , disregard sources information substitute pet theories likely get wild basing theories reported media government evidence anyone setting fire deliberately simpleton actually evidence fire set deliberately survivors ir tape showing fire set 3 places soot fire giving \( indications gasoline feeding fire \) might believe 1 2 totally paranoid skeptical , 3rd point visible anyone watches tapes fire started bbq grill basing statements \? oh , forgot , 're guy n't know microwave oven need electricity , never mind ho ho ho listen npr , watch cnn , nbc also read papers get \? personal opinions \? , brent irvine yes think irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \?
dbernard clesun central sun com \( dave bernard \) subject fbi director 's statement waco standoff organization sun microsystems lines 19 distribution world reply dbernard clesun central sun com nntp posting host clesun central sun com 's bd side story koresh met agents door weapon remember affidavit indicates koresh spent 200 , 000 assault weapons past year know adjacent house thigh deep million rounds ammunition news statement 200 , 000 worth firearms ammunition \( mention assault weapons \) premises , koresh purchased \( would crime \? \) averages 2000 per person , astronomical number n't know thigh deep pile million rounds know fbi says pile million rounds first 've heard koresh identified door weapon
kam cv hp com \( keith marchington \) subject evil tax dollars work , atf burns ranch etc etc nntp posting host cv hp com organization hewlett packard company , corvallis , oregon usa x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 8 lines 91 mark 'mark' sachs \( mbs110 psuvm psu edu \) wrote oh \? smoke flames start three different places \? particular , three different places apv 's \? crushed remains pressurized propane tank found ruins bd compound key word pressurized baby crushed , gas would gone place ignited , would look like pictures explosion saw tv news ammo n't go kind like going propane gas goes big fireball gee , 's kind consistent history shows hmmmmm government start fire , n't people trying get compound \? remember , pressurized gas people building conflagration less minute huge explosion gas masks worn inhabitants makes lot sense inside would even know tank damaged thought normal fire , would probably trying put boom fireball explosion concussion , doubt anybody inside building capable moving besides oh , n't know i'm even bothering good question take objective look happened , listen things fbi said \( bd 's started fire bd 's bodies found gunshot wounds \) refuted evidence recovered seems fbi deliberately making statements rational basis fact , trying make sound like fact find tremendously chilling many people seem eager believe murderous , heavily armed religious cult , despite much evidence contrary thought experiment suppose exact thing happened bush administration would answer \? would still prefer believe cultists \? yes , would still believe fbi batf non stop string lies half truths consistent operations numerous occasions bd 's murderous , cause problems assaulted batf thought experiment batf never stormed farm , would four agents 90 bd 's dead today \? \( , n't really expect response challenge \) , mr clinton elected , people believe campaign promisses would respected got office um , n't politicians elected \? yes politicians elected kind scary , n't people actually held mr clinton promises instead apologizing denying ever made , actually expected accountability government , doubt like waco would happen often particular reason gummint decided slaughter eighty people \? , like , plain evil , \? wake one day , stretch yawn , throw dart map united states figure oppress day \? i'm eager know acutally , batf rather history raids sort prior time budget comes review oddly enough , budget reviewed two weeks initial raid bd 's coincidence \? think ! fire , happened caused act knocking walls armored vehicle destruction fbi tried convince world suicide , facts coming investigation texas rangers medical examiners point gas explosion quick fire decimated occupants building sounds like law enforcement agency trying cover ass bill clinton cooler theme music darth vader \? diabolical laughter \? look good cape \? things must investigated first oh , please want argue , argue merely want see differently , please go somewhere else mark sachs mbs110 psuvm psu edu keith marchington
wwarf silver ucs indiana edu \( wayne j warf \) subject bd 's 're paranoid freaks nntp posting host silver ucs indiana edu organization indiana university lines 34 article 1993apr23 7011 starbase trincoll edu \( \) writes article 1r6p8oinn8hi clem handheld com , jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) wrote made mind waco , sure seems group devoted government following fanatics willing believe whatever government wants tell , without shred doubt , thought thier sure get shrill whenever belief structure shaken kinda reminds bds , n't \? jim go hell i'm government following fanatic sweeping generalizations evince ignorance supposed \? let \? fuck fuck atf , 've done right first time joe kusmierczak mail trincoll edu , apparently , passes intelligent discourse trinity joe fbi kusmierczak gets angry pointed fbi told lie , mounting evidence 've lied almost every detail 4 19 except expect cultists like , somebody burn , 's trapped , well , good riddance ! right joe \? wayne j warf wwarf ucs indiana edu speak clinton gore cia fbi dea assassinate bomb wod bor atf irs resist nsa christian god satan apocalypse zog nazi socialist communist explosive fundamentalist revolution nsc federal reserve constitution gold fema
pngai adobe com \( phil ngai \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization adobe systems incorporated lines 15 article 1993apr23 icd ab com kdw icd ab com \( kenneth whitehead \) writes dusek rtsg mot com \( james p dusek \) writes fbi started fire , didn`t people flee burning building \? could lot reasons , james wo n't know survivors allowed speak , rather fbi spokesman survivors interviewed tv going returning court basically said , way kind suicide pact attempt remember texas holocaust
irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \( brent irvine \) subject atf burns dividian ranch update distribution usa organization university illinois urbana champaign lines 61 article transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) writes article c5v9fv krt news cso uiuc edu , irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \( brent irvine \) writes article c5uhuo awq usenet ucs indiana edu wwarf silver ucs indiana edu \( wayne j warf \) writes article nate 1485 735408842 psygate psych indiana edu nate psygate psych indiana edu \( nathan engle \) writes yeah , information trickles funny works funny , yeah , funny n't wait fbi spokesdroid latest reversal facts proclaiming bd 's burned death wo n't believe anything government says , press reliable according logic , base statements \? wild speculation laced healthy dose paranoia \? funny , brent , far heard two versions facts 1 \) government says includes government says two survivors said 2 \) koresh 's lawyer \( actually inside compound \) says , including says survivors said strange , seem disagree important particulars anyone actually seen news reports survivors speaking first hand , feel free ot pitch may missed money story sound hell lot like case 2 , like case 1 since neither side would particularly interested telling truth , weigh given , weigh care many cult members probably side attorney , lying , change stories match feds also lie , cult members become disillusioned change stories match feds neither sides interested truth media interested , usually either n't time get straight tie ratings deliberately distort , though , black soot billowing outside compound added fast fire spread someone dousing large parts compound sort gasoline fire starter doubt feds interested arresting vernon real unbalanced one \( least one lost cool \) vernon , figured likely \( jesus persecuted authorities , followers hold onto , made decision followers also probably felt heaven stuff \) conclusion , came umpteen million hours listening npr radio shows \( always radio going office talk show news program background noise \) personal opinions \? , brent irvine yes think irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \?
kam cv hp com \( keith marchington \) subject bd 's 're paranoid freaks nntp posting host cv hp com organization hewlett packard company , corvallis , oregon usa x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 8 lines 43 wrote article 1r6p8oinn8hi clem handheld com , jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) wrote made mind waco , sure seems group devoted government following fanatics willing believe whatever government wants tell , without shred doubt , thought thier sure get shrill whenever belief structure shaken kinda reminds bds , n't \? jim go hell i'm government following fanatic sweeping generalizations evince ignorance supposed \? let \? yes given history bd 's fact peacefully minding business , think would correct course action beginning everything followed direct result major media fuck batf perpetrated 51 days ago fuck fuck atf , 've done right first time joe kusmierczak mail trincoll edu yep , doubt bombed right git go yeah , sure ! much resemblence america constitution much feeling safe home much rights enumerated bill rights upheld bother \? get way effective government , government elite , elite , elite joe , attitudes like facts actually happened , information came single source , fbi batf yet happy pronounce bd 's guilty charged based one sided testimony scary ! keith marchington
pyron skndiv dseg ti com \( dillon pyron \) subject feds caught another lie lines 39 nntp posting host skndiv dseg ti com reply pyron skndiv dseg ti com organization ti dseg vax support article 1993apr23 icd ab com , kdw icd ab com \( kenneth whitehead \) writes well , 2 days hearing 3 bd bodies shot head \( horrors ! another jonestown ! crazed cultists ! child abusers ! waco ! \) , last night medical examiner tv pretty vehement denying bullet wounds seemed tad upset feds spread rumor \( aw , gee , n't hard 're practicing new principle flexible reality big boss implemented \) long , think kneejerk government apologists going start getting pretty pissed easily misled two notes interest texas tarrant \( autopsies \) well known rendering judgements contrary police view presented evidence years ago man police said pointing gun actually hands air bode well boys black texas dept public saftey texas rangers great love atf heard referred fucking cowboys dps totally squeezed bd operation left traffic cops atf two strikes finally \( guess makes three notes \) , rumour waco four atf agents stopped four waco police cars dps trooper one flashed automatic weapon cop lots pissed cops wonder cops really cheering atf dillon pyron opinions expressed ti dseg lewisville vax support sender unless otherwise stated \( 214 \) 462 3556 \( i'm \) \( 214 \) 492 4656 \( i'm home \) texans vote robin hood need pyron skndiv dseg ti com solutions , gestures padi dm 54909
irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \( brent irvine \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization university illinois urbana champaign lines 26 article dusek shale dusek rtsg mot com \( james p dusek \) writes ccdarg dct ac uk \( alan greig \) writes cultists \) think 'll quote bbc quoting \( actually voice interview \) one two british survivors claimed fire started tanks caused internal wooden wall roof collapse knocking kerosene lamps suicide plan fbi started fire , didn`t people flee burning building \? case , unimportant set fire davidians would burned matter , especially batf fbi set fire would make martyrs vernon howell therefore rocket heaven comments remaining davidians scattered throughout country seemed confirm theory \( one cult member said wished , would wait vernon return actually seemed upset burn \) think vernon started fire \( followers anyway \) , incidental reaction personal opinions \? , brent irvine yes think irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \?
auerbach batman bmd trw com subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! lines 37 article scottj iamac 1 dml georgetown edu , scottj magic dml georgetown edu \( john l scott \) writes article dusek shale , dusek rtsg mot com \( james p dusek \) wrote fbi started fire , didn`t people flee burning building \? okay , james , tell 'll building 90 people 'll put highly tense situation 'll subject sleep deprivation , remove utilities , march tanks back forth front , play recordings tortured rabbits high volume , shine bright lights windows , threaten attack time , cut outside world , weeks time , 'll begin smash building 're , destroying passages stairs spreading debris everywhere time , 'll pump massive quantities nasty tear gas , six hours stop ! ! ! ! enough ! ! ! i'm ! mean , i'm relatively sane person god knows i'm weak forgive i'm stupid enough stay place longer want ! ! ! 'll holed small area 90 sweaty people hot day building fill smoke become inferno 90 people small room try leave jim , n't make , wo n't agree must wanted die \? besides , nine people successfully flee fire yeah , least one person ran back sounds like personal choice religious , beleive dying beliefs , probably core happened waco west tend disregard type displayed many moslem fundamentalist groups see nothing wrong dying beliefs convictions suspect type displayed bds 'll probably never know karl
irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \( brent irvine \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization university illinois urbana champaign lines 26 article isgtec isgtec com robert isgtec com \( robert osborne \) writes michael frederick rhein \( mfrhein wpi wpi edu \) wrote article 93109 13404334aej7d cmuvm bitnet 34aej7d cmuvm bitnet writes napalm , let wood stove inside ignite someone else pointed , would stove use warm day texas agree original theory anything , since utilities turned might using wood stoves cook meals also might run fire wood \( maybe chopping \? \) also may cooking , eating stored thought brent yes well aware electricity cut , thanks hundreds e mail messages replies post irvine personal opinions \? , brent irvine yes think irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \?
lilak peaks enet dec com \( rod lilak \) subject waco clinton press conference , part 1 lines 37 reply lilak dec com organization digital equipment corporation engineering article neat cs toronto edu , cs toronto edu \( pham \) writes xref nntpd2 cxo dec com misc legal talk politics guns alt activism path nntpd2 cxo dec com ! pa dec com ! decwrl ! ames ! agate ! howland reston ans net ! zaphod mps ohio state edu ! cs utexas edu ! ! ! relay cs toronto edu ! neat cs toronto edu ! cs toronto edu ! newsgroups misc legal , talk politics guns , alt activism cs toronto edu \( pham \) subject waco clinton press conference , part 1 message id neat cs toronto edu organization department computer science , university toronto references 1993apr21 r node hub org date 23 apr 93 03 46 24 gmt lines 3 anyone notice clinton smiling making jokes press conference \? considering number people killed , seems inappropriate , anyone notice clinton referred davidians round spontaneous applause burst forth reporters \? poor taste , showed media 's bias hostility anyone politically correct stripe wonder kgbatf fbi whole affair rod vs individualism ancient conflict men come close truth , destroyed time one civilization fell another civilization progress toward society privacy savage 's whole existence public , ruled laws tribe civilization process setting man free men ayn rand 's speech ' n't speak company hire
lvc cbnews cb att com \( larry cipriani \) subject two questions organization ideology busters , inc lines 25 article pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) writes article sbanka vm temple edu sbanka vm temple edu writes 'd appreciate help anyone could give two questions brady bill news throughout 1992 actually happened congress \? bush veto \? , \? brady bill passed house 1992 , failed reach vote senate , never reached bush \( sarah brady 's condemnation withstanding \) joint house senate conference report \( e , crime bill \) congress contains brady bill 7 day waiting period within believe died never came vote either house 'll probably pass house , probably pass senate get vote whether 'll busy things question got four years clinton 's support pass larry cipriani l v cipriani att com
cescript mtu edu \( charles scripter \) subject gun control nntp posting host phy mtu edu organization michigan tech x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 38 tue , 20 apr 1993 21 30 12 gmt , pete \( phz cadence com \) wrote article 1993apr16 010235 14225 mtu edu cescript mtu edu \( charles scripter \) writes n't even get capitalization correct ! try reading usca constitution , get correct version constitution really stupid nitpicking capitalization rules late 18th century quite different today , posted matches current capitalization rules pete right , n't need worry capitalization rules , gives necessary information sentence structure anyone worry whether text close original possible \( sarcasm intended \) original constitution , militia , arms , etc capitalized simply also done currently german special significance words simply capitalized capitalization denotes special emphasis n't understand , said get correct version constitution first indicator something wrong \( e copy \) modern capitalization rules next thing go spelling , 've even seen versions grammar \( oh , n't worry , modernizing grammar wo n't change meaning text , right \? \) p found 10 different versions constitution network accuracy matter charles scripter cescript phy mtu edu dept physics , michigan tech , houghton , mi 49931 government little great things , shall drawn washington centre power , render powerless checks provided one government another become venal oppressive government separated thomas jefferson , 1821
cbnewsl cb att com \( james w \) subject shoot somebody organization distribution na lines 28 article 93108 025818u28037 uicvm uic edu jason kratz u28037 uicvm uic edu writes heard many opinions subject would like hear people net say 're situation pull gun somebody give chance get away decided continue action anyway end shooting killing question \? stay wait cops collect brass \( 're using semi auto \) get \( provided course n't think seen \) \? kind laws books regarding type situation \? would likely thing happen stayed waited first offense \? would happen took someone saw caught \? massachusetts , likely arrested murder , convince cops da used lethal force threat death serious bodily harm , charges would probably dropped run away later caught , much harder time convincing cops judge jury innocence going lam seen indication guilt lot people jim opinions email att ! cbnewsl ! cbnewsl cb att com \? que \? ou \?
chrisb natinst com \( chris bartz \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization national instruments , austin , tx lines 21 nntp posting host eagle natinst com article bigboote wpi edu mfrhein wpi wpi edu \( michael frederick rhein \) writes napalm , let wood stove inside ignite heating purposes weather texas everyone claims cooking stop think whole thread rediculous cares stove going matter stove burning , lanterns burning , candles burning , someone smoking , etc , etc , etc premise fbi filling house napalm would catch fire crazy fbi pumping napalm davidians home pretty damn strong evidence convince believe mass suicide murder koresh believe accident davidians believe accident fbi easily believe mass stupidity sides believe fbi lit fire intentionally way chris bartz \( chrisb natinst com \)
wwarf silver ucs indiana edu \( wayne j warf \) subject atf burns dividian ranch update nntp posting host silver ucs indiana edu organization indiana university distribution usa lines 83 article news cso uiuc edu irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \( brent irvine \) writes article goa usenet ucs indiana edu wwarf silver ucs indiana edu \( wayne j warf \) writes article c5v9fv krt news cso uiuc edu irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \( brent irvine \) writes article c5uhuo awq usenet ucs indiana edu wwarf silver ucs indiana edu \( wayne j warf \) writes article nate 1485 735408842 psygate psych indiana edu nate psygate psych indiana edu \( nathan engle \) writes yeah , information trickles funny works funny , yeah , funny n't wait fbi spokesdroid latest reversal facts proclaiming bd 's burned death wo n't believe anything government says , press reliable according logic , base statements \? wild speculation laced healthy dose paranoia \? post press said , wished said medical examiner refuted fbi facts n't believe someone lot reason impartial say moron illiterate \? facts fbi neither willing grant sake argument read following proclaimed monday suddenly n't facts anymore tuesday press conference n't pay attention one source , neither abandon critical thinking , disregard sources information substitute pet theories likely get wild basing theories reported media government facts reported press impartial government sources support evidence anyone setting fire deliberately simpleton actually evidence fire set deliberately survivors ir tape showing fire set 3 places soot fire giving \( indications gasoline feeding fire \) testimony , press conference , fbi said testimony , survivors reported cnn wire service said survivors gave consistent stories refuting fbi lighting heating trying prove 're idiot might believe 1 2 totally paranoid skeptical , 3rd point visible anyone watches tapes fire started bbq grill basing statements \? oh , forgot , 're guy n't know microwave oven need electricity , never mind ho ho ho listen npr , watch cnn , nbc also read papers get \? open eyes ears , least 3 4 sources reported full shit personal opinions \? , brent irvine yes think irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \? wayne j warf wwarf ucs indiana edu speak clinton gore cia fbi dea assassinate bomb wod bor atf irs resist nsa christian god satan apocalypse zog nazi socialist communist explosive fundamentalist revolution nsc federal reserve constitution gold fema
rcanders nyx cs du edu \( mr nice guy \) subject fbi director 's statement waco standoff x disclaimer nyx public access unix system run university denver denver community university neither control responsibility opinions users organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept lines 33 branch davidians violent planning start violence bd compound assaulted atf bd fire back agreed cease fire allowed atf care wounded bd even released atf agents captured clear release agents allowing atf medical attention bd looking trouble bd violent would held atf agents hostages would released like kept agents hostage could used chips medical attention etc big thing made bd collection weapons one shown plans use also apparent bd military training , could dug bunkers trenches increased could shot lights speakers appears bd violent , shot back attacking atf agents panic shots fired last day response fbi attack compound armor violence waco initiated federal agents , bd rod anderson n0nzo acceptable substitute boulder , co brains silence rcanders nyx cs du edu solomon short satellite n0nzo ao 16
rcanders nyx cs du edu \( mr nice guy \) subject waco fire x disclaimer nyx public access unix system run university denver denver community university neither control responsibility opinions users organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept lines 29 flash frequent occurrence fires fire start small one location heat air temperature room builds everything room catches fire may occurred bd compound , heard reports windows covered would permit fire start unnoticed outside compound fire got big enough , broke walls , appeared started two places really one big fire large quantities tear gas inserted building possible many women children room free tear gas would try seal door keep tear gas learned fire broken late escape trapped flames safe room find hard believe fbi recording final assault think would wanted tapes show agents fbi overcoming forces evil , aka branch davidians tapes would also allow fbi prove using excessive force rod anderson n0nzo acceptable substitute boulder , co brains silence rcanders nyx cs du edu solomon short satellite n0nzo ao 16
hambidge bms com subject atf burns dividian ranch update reply hambidge bms com organization bristol myers squibb distribution usa lines 14 article 8mg news cso uiuc edu , irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \( brent irvine \) writes , though , black soot billowing outside compound added fast fire spread someone dousing large parts compound sort gasoline fire starter experience , seeing couple houses burn , one n't need get lot black soot 's plenty stuff house burn even asphalt would make really smoke al standard disclaimer
draughn iitmax iit edu \( mark draughn \) subject clinton joins list genocidal socialist leaders organization illinois institute technology lines 39 article hydra gatech edu gt6511a prism gatech edu \( cochrane , james shapleigh \) writes btw , screwed bad enough get someone hurt killed , co , pms , probably brigade commander , possibly region commander could expect good amount heat , possibly including service certainly pms would , would shortly thereafter asked retire called accountability pms knew beforehand activities person killed , would nailed failing ensure proper safety measures taken n't know , would nailed improper supervision hold president us lower standards subordinates \? , briefed fbi raid could asked intended flush bd 's president competent plan judge planning raid , need job set basic policies manage people clinton instructed reno preserve lives , confirmed plan raid safe could , job president involve minor details kinds operations sort leads disaster , demonstrated well vietnam raid went bad 80 civilians killed u authorities clinton enters picture big way clinton start investigation \? try squash attempt investigate \? responsible leader \? interested protecting image administration \? 'll find unfolds mark draughn draughn iitmax iit edu bitnet academic computing , illinois institute technology 1 312 567 10 w street , chicago , illinois
garry alice att com \( garry \) subject effectiveness 44 calibre article alice reply garry alice uucp \( \) distribution world organization , bell labs lines 56 csa3 lbl gov \( ad absurdum per \) writes psc sei cmu edu \( peter \) rec martial arts i'm sure weapons developed society , however , condone possession use actually , joe , wrote peter responding article i'm actually rather confused post suppose n't make clear , cause seem gotten exactly opposite impression intended suppose authorities might better term society carry use firearm many parts country \( certainly parts live \) , expect , least , awful lot explaining also appears trend society large actively opposes many see right defend parts society , handguns banned restricted practically unavailable law abiding citizen self defense outside home funny , though , criminals places continue supply guns using imho , n't need either political philosopher crime victim realize 's flaw gun logic agreed 're welcome ho , , first amendment important second , please n't let obvious good intentions generalities something big diverse us society intention comment existence suitable weapons self defense n't mean 'll escape whole shitload trouble forced use naive hope making gun possession crime give pause someone would criminal anyway made statements , naive hope outlook wishing peace defend others' thoughts kindly , 's want opportunity leave peace , means defend possible think agree issue guess position n't survive transition ascii garry slow winter day bell labs night like forever garry alice att com sink like stone att ! alice ! garry float like feather
dbernard clesun central sun com \( dave bernard \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization sun microsystems lines 15 distribution world reply dbernard clesun central sun com nntp posting host clesun central sun com karl auerbach writes besides , nine people successfully flee fire yeah , least one person ran back sounds like personal choice religious , beleive dying beliefs , probably core happened waco religious fanaticism \? people try get back time homes firefighters often restrain want rush back effort save things old photos , , stamp collections , cash , books , , pets , wives husbands , babies
well sf ca us \( hudson h \) subject change name \? \? nntp posting host well sf ca us organization whole earth 'lectronic link lines 4 suggest another name change thomas parsli vidkun quisling
pyron skndiv dseg ti com \( dillon pyron \) subject bd 's 're paranoid freaks lines 36 nntp posting host skndiv dseg ti com reply pyron skndiv dseg ti com organization ti dseg vax support article 1993apr23 7011 starbase trincoll edu , \( \) writes article 1r6p8oinn8hi clem handheld com , jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) wrote made mind waco , sure seems group devoted government following fanatics willing believe whatever government wants tell , without shred doubt , thought thier sure get shrill whenever belief structure shaken kinda reminds bds , n't \? jim go hell i'm government following fanatic sweeping generalizations evince ignorance supposed \? let \? fuck fuck atf , 've done right first time right first time \? murdered \? used tanks \? maybe enough evidence list presented date , n't seen anything illegal claim bd 's bought components convert weapons class iii devices , evidence done fact , class iii ffl living , may legal \( given recent court rulings \) really meant say atf done right thing want bd 's dead \? dillon pyron opinions expressed ti dseg lewisville vax support sender unless otherwise stated \( 214 \) 462 3556 \( i'm \) \( 214 \) 492 4656 \( i'm home \) texans vote robin hood need pyron skndiv dseg ti com solutions , gestures padi dm 54909
meyers leonardo rtp dg com \( bill meyers \) subject clipper chip distribution usa organization n lines 137 article 1993apr20 news columbia edu pes3 cunixf cc columbia edu \( paul eric stoufflet \) writes thought clipper chip posted p g \( sorry , lost original post \) joke really n't believe second way work morning , heard npr joke 's another copy save npr , hmmm \? mention part fact law enforcement access escrowed keys concealed american public \? newsgroups talk politics guns path dg rtp ! psinntp ! uunet ! news claremont edu ! elroy jpl nasa gov ! sdd hp com ! decwrl ! pa dec com ! uiboise idbsu edu ! blh blh uiboise idbsu edu \( broward l horne \) message id inet gw 2 pa dec com subject heil , clinton date sun , 18 apr 93 11 50 13 mdt x received usenet pa dec com id mon , 19 apr 93 09 30 51 0700 x received inet gw 2 pa dec com id mon , 19 apr 93 09 30 17 0700 x received uiboise idbsu edu \( 16 6 16 2 \) id sun , 18 apr 93 11 50 14 0600 x talk politics guns usenet x mailer elm revision 66 25 lines 112 although subject matter posting directly related talk politics guns , believe information interest large number readers especially considering latest batf clipper csrc ncsl nist gov \( clipper chip announcement \) subject white house public encryption management fact sheet message id c5lgaz 250 dove nist gov sender news dove nist gov organization national institute standards technology distribution na date fri , 16 apr 1993 20 44 58 gmt lines 94 note following released white house today conjunction announcement clipper chip encryption technology fact sheet public encryption management president approved directive public encryption management directive provides following advanced telecommunications commercially available encryption part wave new computer communications technology encryption products scramble information protect privacy communications data preventing unauthorized access advanced telecommunications systems use digital technology rapidly precisely handle high volume communications advanced telecommunications systems integral infrastructure needed ensure economic competitiveness information age despite benefits , new communications technology also frustrate lawful government electronic surveillance sophisticated encryption effect united states exported abroad , used thwart foreign intelligence activities critical national interests past , possible preserve government capability conduct electronic surveillance legitimate law enforcement national security interests , time protecting privacy civil liberties citizens encryption technology improves , require new , innovative approaches area communications encryption , u government developed microcircuit provides privacy encryption substantially robust current government standard , also permits escrowing keys needed unlock encryption system escrowing keys allow government gain access encrypted information appropriate legal authorization assist law enforcement government agencies collect decrypt , legal authority , electronically transmitted information , hereby direct following action taken installation government developed microcircuits attorney general united states , representative , shall request manufacturers communications hardware incorporates encryption install u government developed key escrow microcircuits products fact law enforcement access escrowed keys concealed american public appropriate steps shall taken ensure existing future versions key escrow microcircuit made widely available u communications hardware manufacturers , consistent need ensure security key escrow system making decision , intend prevent private sector developing , government approving , microcircuits algorithms equally effective assuring privacy secure key escrow system key escrow attorney general shall make arrangements appropriate entities hold keys key escrow microcircuits installed communications equipment case , key holder must agree strict security procedures prevent unauthorized release keys keys shall released government agencies established authority acquire content communications encrypted devices containing microcircuits attorney general shall review legal sufficiency procedures agency establishes authority acquire content communications procurement use encryption devices secretary commerce , consultation appropriate u agencies , shall initiate process write standards facilitate procurement use encryption devices fitted key escrow microcircuits federal communications systems process sensitive unclassified information expect process proceed schedule permit final standard within six months directive attorney general procure utilize encryption devices extent needed preserve government 's ability conduct lawful electronic surveillance fulfill need secure law enforcement communications , attorney general shall utilize funds department justice asset forfeiture super surplus fund effect purchase
mst4298 rigel tamu edu \( mitchell todd \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization grinchco lines 35 distribution world nntp posting host rigel tamu edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article 93112 153005mgb slacvm slac stanford edu , mgb slacvm slac stanford edu writes p according numerous accounts compound , fire started armoured vehicle crushing large propane tank , turning numerous gas lanterns large propane tank , breached , n't think would identifiable explosion \? , bd members much reason lie gov't medical examiners found bullet wounds , stated fbi , corpses 'd one body information released would n't doubt though find tremendously chilling many people seem willing accept governments story , despite much evidence contrary evidence exists right \( least know \) various claims counter claims i'm waiting hard evidence released \? mitchell todd mst4298 zeus ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' tamu edu ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' '
pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) subject fbi director 's statement waco standoff distribution misc legal , tx general , tx politics talk politics guns , alt law enforcement organization totally unorganized lines 36 article intellection com emcguire intellection com \( ed mcguire \) writes 1993apr21 aio jsc nasa gov news aio jsc nasa gov \( usenet \) news \( brenda \) writes another thing puzzles finding dead bodies inside bullet holes already \? \? \? n't think 's possible koresh shot traitors rather letting \? \? \? possible would n't put past also possible hit rounds exploding extreme heat remember kept cops away hours heard bodies found shot , coroner 's cause death far , medical examiner \( according news \) found evidence gunshot wounds bodies far examined continues case , sort shoot holes \( pun intended \) fbi story , would n't \? cartridges going outside firearm launch bullet like fired gun bullet hardly moves , brass casing goes flying , less lethal force hurt , yes , kill doubt wil penetrate coat , example independent investigation , full subpoena powers , powers prosecute felony charges , investigate possible illegal criminal activity part batf fbi \? cannot see reason use phrase like use often , nothing hide welcome , vigorously support note internal investigation dept justice independent investigation pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc 1 207 \( pat myrto \) seattle , wa else fails , try ! uunet ! pilchuck ! rwing ! pat wisdom two things infinite universe human stupidity , sure former albert einstien
pagan dpw com \( kathleen pagan \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! distribution usa organization dp w , new york , ny lines 23 originator pagan dpw com article c5tenu 112f ns1 nodak edu green plains nodak edu \( bill green \) writes 1 \) could possible taken koresh outside compound time feb 28th raid \? yes , local sheriff stated anytime wanted talk koresh , call koresh would come one point , i'm fan janet reno , like way balls go ahead take full responsibility seems like waffle boy problems figuring stood issue full agree think ridiculous even talk janet reno sometime tuesday , however , talk wendell \( \? \) really attorney general \? \? \? \? hopefully investigation answer bizarre questions
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization stratus computer , inc lines 35 distribution world nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article bigboote wpi edu , mfrhein wpi wpi edu \( michael frederick rhein \) writes rob others debating wood stove original post claimed atf fbi pumping napalm building hopes wood stove inside would ignite would wood stove lit first place \? would n't lit heating purposes weather texas statement dead wrong , local posters confirmed quite chilly morning everyone claims cooking , argue entirely unreasonable woodstove operational stop think cs gas pumped building presume everyone wearing gas masks \( either bought type makeshift type \) going 6 hours n't know ever around cs , exposed cs gas part army training , know without mask uncomfortable makes eyes water , nose run , makes sick stomach mask difficult drink water much less eat question cooking food \? obviously missed earlier posting woodstoves brief , ca n't turn woodstove like gas range stays time even stays 24 hours shut \( working woodstoves n't ever shut spring \) cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
rjl pitt edu \( richard j loether \) subject arlen specter 's address \? distribution usa organization university pittsburgh lines 44 article 1993apr23 nntpd lkg dec com williams bagels enet dec com \( bryan h williams \) writes article r1328 vmcms csuohio edu , r1328 vmcms csuohio edu writes article 1993apr22 icd ab com kdw icd ab com \( kenneth whitehead \) writes anybody got arlen spectre 's address \? want write thank showing leadership demand congressional investigation waco mess arlen 's address , would go house \( weasels live houses holes \? \) personally tell pathetic idiot arlen word jerk snip i'm fan arlen spectre 's , right thing , attacking motives case wrong pardon , , n't trust spectre 's motives spectre major part warren commission , \( remember magic bullet theory \? \) trusted 's even tiniest chance may done something wrong gets chance i'm afraid satisfy public outcry another whitewash unfortunately , us get wish batf disbanded folded fbi , etc , may end efficient agency bumbling competition today agents fired prosecuted keep bumbling possible retain liberties way right money certainly applaud must stress personal responsibility goons set assault american citizens must count spectre , though , get done rjl rich loether snail mail university pittsburgh ideas email rjl pitt edu computing info services mine , voice \( 412 \) 624 600 epsilon drive fax \( 412 \) 624 6426 pittsburgh , pa mine
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject nature waco gas organization stratus computer , inc lines 14 distribution world nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article 1993apr23 icd ab com , kdw icd ab com \( kenneth whitehead \) writes saw real interesting report cnn last night seems gas used banned international law military use however , president quick point exemptions law enforcement hmmm inhumane use war enemy , ok civilians whoa think twice , , unless want standards applied cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
jbs rti rti org subject gun buy back organization joe 's bar grill distribution na lines 156 article r1328 vmcms csuohio edu r1328 vmcms csuohio edu writes article 1993apr22 rti rti org jbs rti rti org writes article r1328 vmcms csuohio edu r1328 vmcms csuohio edu writes gun buyback programs hopefully impact accidental shootings \( especially youths \) , domestic disputes gun available heat emotion anger , maybe keep guns stolen later used street level crime gives idea gun buyback programs impact things \? evidence , please \? please n't saying joe making point tha evidence effect gun buyback programs hopefully effect may prevent injuries deaths one types common incidents saying hopefully effect policy x much different saying hopefully effect policy x 've made statements former describes reasonably likely outcome policy x , perhaps policy x worthy consideration latter statement something base policy decisions ! firearms fifth leading cause unintentional deaths among children ages 14 according groups like center prevent handgun violence \( formerly national coalition ban handguns interesting name change , n't think \? \) include murder suicide firearms leading causes unintentional death \) figures n't include murder suicide means causes unintentional death ca n't see past bullshit \? n't understand ratio accidental deaths important guns n't kill many children car accidents difference severity 1 , 000 deaths 10 , 000 deaths \? trying use accidental gun related deaths among children justification gun control needs convinced accidental gun deaths children serious problem \? assumed humane person would concerned 10 year old got hold parents gun bedroom drawer accidently blew away one friends certainly accidental deaths cause serious things anti gun groups insist accidental death firearms serious problem , even n't use deaths justification gun control , groups i'm sorry jumped conclusions reason mentioning accidental deaths due firearms something warranted concern , light statement staunch supporter gun control measures , think conclusion reasonable one fact remains tragic though individual accidental gun deaths may , serious problem statistically speaking please explain think symbolic offerings good point , gun buyback programs almost always run police departments might \( stress might \) little \( stress little \) good giving people impression police attempting respond interpersonal gun violence unique way overall , thought made clear think gun buyback programs useful sorry n't clear thought view buyback programs talk symbolic offerings hopefully preventing accidents heat passion shootings disagree counts ca n't understand buying guns people n't intending misuse \( obviously want use guns commit crimes n't going turn \) could construed positive way police respond interpersonal violence suggest go back look wherever saw statistics suspect 'll find look carefully 135 , 000 number students estimated carried weapon \( necessarily gun \) school least past year , number students carry gun school daily well joe , suggest talk center prevent handgun violence , people publish figures saying many children commit suicide handguns alone year fbi says commit suicide methods per year \? think believe \? people call everyone age 24 children 're screaming carnage nation 's children caused handguns \? centers disease control ah , yes , agency considers accidental shootings children statistical problem stated objective healthy people 2000 document enact laws 50 states requiring manufacturers handguns make handguns difficult fire , minimizing likelihood accidental intentional children \? agency funded study dc pronounced dc gun ban saved x lives \( yes , actually gave us number \) basis look number shootings rather rate shootings \? n't fault population dc dropped post law period look carefully see greatly underestimate presence guns lives youths cphv reports 135 , 000 youth bring guns school daily 400 , 000 bring guns school least year cdc estimates 1 0f 25 high school students carried gun school least 1990 okay , 'll concede longer numbers read 'll retract dispute numbers however , would greatly interested seeing cphv cdc came numbers cdc also says 1 2 million elementary aged , latch key children \( kids come home school empty house \) , access guns home 's got anything \? hell , elementary school came home empty house guns problem \? n't touch guns taught also taught mess gasoline garage , fuse box , car , knives , oven , tools problem guns , 's parents ! ! ! california schools reported 200 increase student gun 1986 1990 , 40 increase 1988 1990 florida reported 61 percent increase gun incidents schools 1986 87 amd 1987 88 statistics states kids find guns \? nothing criminal prosecution , expulsion , cases even suspension take gun , slap kids wrist , say ai n't awful , go everything 's back normal 's wrong picture \? okay , maybe worded wrong dad meant put children situation \( fortified compound \) harm could come act messiah opinion i'm saying koresh control children directly , would hope whatever messiah would let innocent children die n't think koresh messiah , either n't obvious believed forces evil come destroy , believed children much safer inside compound \? n't say sane behaved pretty rational manner given thought going thought one place harm would n't come claimed messiah people followed , tell parents free children instead letting burn alive \? let 's see try find exits , , flee fire 've kept awake 50 days loudspeakers subjected six hours tanks knocking walls tear gas assault joe
att com \( joe \) subject gun control , needs \? organization bell labs , naperville nntp posting host ih att com lines 32 article transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) writes stuff deleted 3 \) teflon bullet bill proposed nra included much think mean hci teflon bullets would banned damn near common hunting ammunition 4 \) finally get bill outlawed sale teflon bullets teflon bullets outside law enforcement community guess wrote , joe \? beloved nra snip followups p g cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet joe joe bell laboratories att com room ih 6g 329 ! 2000 n naperville rd \( 708 \) 979 naperville , il
random cbnewse cb att com \( david l pope \) subject clinton joins list genocidal socialist leaders organization lines 34 article 1993apr23 153005 8237 starbase trincoll edu , \( \) 've yet meet group baptists stockpiling cambell 's soup 16 's ar 15 's banging marrying thirteen yuear \( sic \) olds numerous baptists hang around n't seen behavior \? trait \( stocking food week , owning firearm \) definition cult \? proof \( aside david 's \) leads believe banging marrying thirteen year olds going \? wife know equate \? 're sorry son bitch ca n't draw distinction two things since guy n't like concept freedom religion , 's going insult mom ! people like cheapen constitution using defend sociopaths n't deserved get life chill paranoia sociopath person sociopaths 200 persons , ca n't stand people , sharing ranch house joe kusmierczak mail trincoll edu suddenly becomes clear everyone discover net spring \? random
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject bd 's 're paranoid freaks organization stratus computer , inc lines 48 distribution world nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article 1993apr23 7011 starbase trincoll edu , \( \) writes go hell i'm government following fanatic sweeping generalizations evince ignorance supposed \? let \? 're sitting home reading good book neighbors think 're quiet , upstanding citizen random person anonymously calls authorities tells beat children , sleep neighbor , bunch nasty 50mm machine guns supposed \? fuck fuck atf , 've done right first time ah , see 're supposed send 100 men horse trailers automatic weapons , storm onto roof , throw grenades house warning , noise torture telling national news media month filthy son bitch , 're supposed gas knock house around bit manage collapse , cause fire , something equally conclusive hope neighbors n't least none might craving seat cheap dramatic local entertainment someone else 's expense maybe even particularly expense least wo n't read rights , joe obviously use anyway joe kusmierczak mail trincoll edu cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
hadcrjam admin uh edu \( miller , jimmy \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization university houston administrative computing lines 47 distribution world nntp posting host uhad2 admin uh edu x news reader vms news 1 24 reply mst4298 rigel tamu edu 's message 23 apr 1993 14 30 cdt rigel tamu edu mst4298 rigel tamu edu writes article 93112 153005mgb slacvm slac stanford edu , mgb slacvm slac stanford edu writes p according numerous accounts compound , fire started armoured vehicle crushing large propane tank , turning numerous gas lanterns large propane tank , breached , n't think would identifiable explosion \? least one blast consistent petroleum products saw , however propane interesting stuff n't explode contact air possible tank without exploding far likely , however , compound equipped ng outlets running tank damage 's could ruptured gas lines , allowing gas spread , unnoticed cs fumes general excitement \( propane typically distinctive added reason smell leaks \) , reaching flame spark , ! fire everywhere , maybe explosion use ng pretty common texas , especially semi rural areas , bd members much reason lie gov't true , far fbi batf track record incident bad find tremendously chilling many people seem willing accept governments story , despite much evidence contrary evidence exists right \( least know \) various claims counter claims i'm waiting hard evidence released \? think would disarmed many people fbi followed policy making claims without evidence , evidence far tends refute story semper fi , jammer jim miller texas university '89 '91 n't speak uh , bad , could use help become one student billing system student billing system power finds way take stand stand , ordinary man rik emmet , gil moore , mike levine triumph
pyr swan ac uk \( r b \) subject upon time organization university college lines 26 american european universities full angry young people \( tm \) wanted overthrow government , would n't think twice molotov cocktail national guard \( military police europe \) certainly , would bad form take anything system \( tm \) said face value end sixties begining seventies , i'm told young remember something wrong happened along way , i'm afraid maybe west became comfortable , maybe born late \( , disappointed youth today , ps 1 \) half smilies implied 2 \) difference lining 90 people wall executing , causing deaths negligence honestly hope witnessed latter say , alternative horrible contemplate 3 \) i'm sure abused children \( tm \) compound much safer pyr swan ac uk
hambidge bms com subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! reply hambidge bms com organization bristol myers squibb lines 18 article rigel tamu edu , mst4298 rigel tamu edu \( mitchell todd \) writes large propane tank , breached , n't think would identifiable explosion \? saw videotape , explosion looked like one due propane rather \( official version \) ammunition evidence exists right \( least know \) various claims counter claims i'm waiting hard evidence released \? could certain hard evidence released al standard disclaimer
scottj magic dml georgetown edu \( john l scott \) subject clinton joins list genocidal socialist leaders organization j random misconfigured site x posted iamac 1 dml georgetown edu nntp posting host sol ctr columbia edu lines 11 joe kusmierczak mail trincoll edu wrote people like cheapen constitution using defend sociopaths n't deserved constitution n't sociopaths , normal people , eh \? must n't allow constitution applying everybody , eh \? disgust john l scott
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject waco survivors 1715 19 april organization stratus computer , inc lines 67 distribution world nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article zeus tamu edu , mst4298 zeus tamu edu \( mitchell todd \) writes david koresh 's lawyer seemed think everyone would come peacefully sooner later fbi atf nothing time hands ! escalate situation cause senseless tragedy \? job protect public save lives kill people crying loud koresh lied lied lied coming compound fbi lawyer everyone keep hearing , every assertion form come government sources except two far concerned , ready koresh ever promised come except first promise last promise first promise conditional audio tape given national exposure well , never broadcast locally , chopped fashion , 's even , cleverly cut got part demanded national exposure , cleverly n't hear last promise conditional finishing manuscript 'll never know would kept one fbi etc ca n't wait forever koresh come long thought koresh 's intended surrender peacefully lost hope , decided go strangely enough , previous day said prepared wait long takes , tactics silly clumsy , obviously intended drive davidians compound , kill koresh followers quite possible arguments intent mark dividing line guilt innocence line murder negligent manslaughter true read paper government listening devices inside compound picked orders burn joint shortly fire started i'm waiting see tapes really hold would interesting development davidian may telling truth , may lying save skin possible murder charges resulting blaze koresh 's lawyer , attorney least one surviving davidian , interest claiming gov't caused fire , least much gov't interest blaming koresh fire 's physical evidence decide 's telling 's tempting one survivors go state 's evidence , parrot fbi story , hang whole suicide koresh , claim stayed gunpoint , etc next weeks , n't prove much none , would strong indication fbi story dead wrong cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) subject dividians black \? nntp posting host chopin udel edu organization university delaware lines 17 article 1993apr9 medtronic com medtronic com \( robert \) writes kenneth whitehead \( kdw icd ab com \) wrote cbnewsh cb att com \( brian leary \) writes questions media politically correct people compound black guys ninja suits davidians black next question \?
paull hplabsz hpl hp com \( robert paull \) subject fbi director 's statement waco standoff organization hewlett packard laboratories palo alto , ca lines 14 x newsreader tin version 1 1 4 pl6 mr nice guy \( rcanders nyx cs du edu \) wrote branch davidians violent planning start violence bd compound assaulted atf bd fire back agreed cease fire allowed atf care wounded bd even released atf agents captured clear release agents allowing atf medical attention bd looking trouble first 've heard bd capturing releasing atf agents info \? rob p
gt6511a prism gatech edu \( cochrane , james shapleigh \) subject bd 's 're paranoid freaks organization georgia institute technology lines 16 article cronkite central sun com dbernard clesun central sun com writes g j maybe wanted look like murder 50 days think coming whole time n't even put children buried bus underground bunker cs seige put tower die cs gas lighter heavier air \? know \? cs heavier air chemical weapons james cochrane danger , doubt , run space gt6511a prism gatech edu circles , scream shout rent
f gautjw ccsvax sfasu edu subject reno , fascist dog organization stephen f austin state university lines 35 article 1993apr23 news columbia edu , pgf5 cunixb cc columbia edu \( peter garfiel freeman \) writes janet reno decision attack compound davidians mean , last thing need country gun toting hicks want end world think atf , us marshalls , fbi local police forces make concerted effort rid us scourge rebellious freaks welch ! welch ein leiden ! pete holocaust memorial museum , president clinton remarked ``the evil represented museum , witness , must remain adversary world live , must stop history well clinton made comment shortly giving janet reno go ahead construct gas chamber waco anniversary warsaw uprising say , n't monday also anniversary paul revere 's ride \? clue \? joe gaut super state , really f gautjw ccsvax sfasu edu matter actually happened remember alamo truth government chooses remember waco tell justice wants happen jim garrison , new orleans , la
mal s2 gatech edu \( dave meyers \) subject 's next \? mormons jews \? organization georgia tech res inst modeling analysis lab lines 22 1993apr20 22480 midway uchicago edu thf2 kimbark uchicago edu \( ted frank \) writes koreshians rubbed neither mormons jews propensity dousing kerosene , i'm particularly concerned \( shall blame jim jones government also \? \) suggestion davidians committed suicide completely without evidence except editorials please word propensity allegedly dousing oh , survivors claim fbi started burning accidentally kerosene lanterns \( remember 'd already cut power \) , propane tanks sounds lot likely committing suicide setting place david meyers \( math gatech edu \) encryption outlawed , outlaws kh n b mk
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject law retribution organization stratus computer , inc lines 13 distribution world nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article appserv eng sun com , fiddler concertina eng sun com \( steve hix \) writes mcelwaine nowhere net guy post \? heard week started compuserve flying models forum sigh cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
jfh rpp386 \( john f haugh ii \) subject waco clinton press conference , part 1 reply jfh rpp386 cactus org \( john f haugh ii \) organization river parishes programming , austin tx lines 13 article blake 70 nevada edu blake nevada edu \( rawlin blake \) writes hoping kent state taught us lesson apparently apparently government murder anyone choose still 's right despite claims someone kent state fire shotgun soldiers , projectiles anyone prove sent direction soldiers rocks john f haugh ii pgp 2 1 ! 's ! cs utexas edu ! rpp386 ! jfh bell \( 512 \) 251 dof 17 's jfh rpp386 cactus org
kennejs cs okstate edu \( kennedy james scot \) subject batf fbi murders almost everyone waco today ! 4 19 organization oklahoma state university lines 73 article charnel ecst csuchico edu , nomad ecst csuchico edu \( michael larish \) article 1993apr19 stortek com vojak icebucket stortek com \( bill vojak \) writes senators , rep also called white house comment line \( hold 8 10 minutes maybe lots people calling \) please call congress critter wh comment line ! general note , seen several polls lately show large majority \( \) thinks incident handled ok \( b \) thinks fbi batf gave enough time \( 51 days \) come take something happens wrong 's okay bunch people say \? instance , people go murderous rampage lynch blacks poll taken shows majority people think acceptable mean people done n't bad \? example mob rule democracy democracy people 's rights protected hope 've made clear make following points 1 \) outrage todays behaviour i'm outraged \? fine right hold opinion want , let ask outraged tragedy \? hope , opinions david koresh followers withstanding know 2 \) since batf chief janet reno 2 signed plan , demand fired ! actually , \? 'd interested hearing reasons 5 \) point even fire set someone inside building , came direct result actions fbi batf people inside \( including 17 children \) deserved trial , instead want know exactly expect \? see 11 o'clock news fbi batf agents still surround waco compound 451 days n't think gave every chance 51 days surrender proper authorities representing , etc koresh lied time time n't wish dead ca n't let forever time something fbi batf happened unfortunate acceptable \( long fbi n't set fire intentionally \) michael g larish amateur radio callsign nomad ecst csuchico edu golden empire amateur radio society \( gears \) california state chico state amateur radio society \( \) university , chico butte county sheriff 's search rescue 317 scott kennedy , brewer patriot david koresh cheap thug interprets bible barrel gun atf spokesman atf cheap thug interprets constitution barrel gun batf cigarette cops fbi 's bureau
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject clinton joins list genocidal socialist leaders organization stratus computer , inc lines 39 distribution world nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article 1993apr23 153005 8237 starbase trincoll edu , \( \) writes must comforting belong government approved religion baptists cult , two , btw , definitions dictionary cult 've yet meet group baptists stockpiling cambell 's soup 16 's ar 15 's know mormons \? banging marrying thirteen yuear olds know fact happening \? state texas says n't , held trial prove 're sorry son bitch ca n't draw distinction two things sure top two things perfectly legal bottom one n't person ca n't distinguish seems people like cheapen constitution using defend sociopaths n't deserved constitution people approve fine , fine usually refer , bigotry negative get life chill paranoia knowing people like really gives warm joe kusmierczak mail trincoll edu cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
gt6511a prism gatech edu \( cochrane , james shapleigh \) subject clinton joins list genocidal socialist leaders organization georgia institute technology lines 27 article 1993apr23 153005 8237 starbase trincoll edu writes article clem handheld com , jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) wrote seem make two points one ultimately federal agencies mention , since koresh apparently different view point 've yet meet group baptists stockpiling cambell 's soup 16 's ar 15 's banging marrying thirteen yuear olds 're sorry hmm reports texas authorities indicate none children group released showed signs child abuse given results found last time group investigated allegations , pretty much state strongly suspect government disinformation deception issue stockpiling weapons food , many recognized religous groups practice maintaining one years supply food , even maintain supply weapons ammunition , two facts grounds armed assault \? dollar value weapons purchased , bought decent firearms comes one handgun , rifle , shotgun adult , extras going rule , batf best get ready fight life assault alabama james cochrane danger , doubt , run space gt6511a prism gatech edu circles , scream shout rent
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject evil tax dollars work , atf burns ranch etc etc organization stratus computer , inc lines 16 distribution world nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article 1993apr23 cv hp com , kam cv hp com \( keith marchington \) writes good question take objective look happened , listen things fbi said \( bd 's started fire bd 's bodies found gunshot wounds \) refuted evidence recovered seems fbi deliberately making statements rational basis fact , trying make sound like fact 's another sad thing 'd expect sort shit batf i'm goddamn disappointed fbi used professionals cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! article rwing 2099 organization totally unorganized lines 87 article c5tenu 112f ns1 nodak edu green plains nodak edu \( bill green \) writes shed light fire , widely reported \( ap , etc \) several witnesses bd folks starting fires also reported fires broke several places , rules bradley knocking lamp , etc cause would like see serious discussion incident believe moves made right proper , still problems tactics watching abc special tonight , well cnn nightline , question atf fbi actions 1 \) could possible taken koresh outside compound time feb 28th raid \? think went town fairly often , known go jogging even 9 month period watched one wonders batf went ahead , warned according interview batf agent , bd expecting , media tow almost looks like wanted nice show media , went hell also never known act violently always surrendered peacefully \( course , warrants served peacefully \) tried allegations found guilty justification mess alleged purchased 200 , 000 00 worth guns stuff \( undetermined time period \) last heard crime , indication one know individual much value guns get fly thru door shoot first talk later raid \? \( grenades shooting first , nobody know say 'oh , thats stun grenade , thats ok ' \) \? sure cannot also , one cannot sure 200k figure calculated like feds calculate value drug even , 'so issue n't bothering anyone \( besides batf n't like folks govt people effective guns \) unapproved religeous group required offend batf days \? sure hope n't come point , add need independent investigation , assuming fbi batf preserving evidence 2 \) could wait resulted different outcome bugged inclined think wait would saved lives one wonders n't emergency gear hand moved , n't turn water fire observed , instead saying aw , gee , water long fire gear even showed like building pretty much finished burning \? safety \? n't decision firefighters allowed make \? water \? n't feds turn back \? sure could cut quickly enough one wonder possibility 3 \) fbi actions \( blaring loudspeakers , etc \) right course action \? questions like said , believe actions taken , general , proper still reservations one point , i'm fan janet reno , like way balls go ahead take full responsibility seems like waffle boy problems figuring stood issue mean \? think going facing jail time acts found criminal \? think going face repercussions fbi batf found acted wrongly \? n't nice pr gimmick , though assured even serious independent investigation possible wrongdoing criminal acts part batf fbi expect hear best law enforcement would n't anything like way question end issue want see independent investigation , full prosecuting subpoena powers felony prosecution felony acts found fat chance , bet bet justice dept internal investigation turn hope wrong , gone fine tooth pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc 1 207 \( pat myrto \) seattle , wa else fails , try ! uunet ! pilchuck ! rwing ! pat wisdom two things infinite universe human stupidity , sure former albert einstien
pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! article rwing 2100 organization totally unorganized lines 27 article dusek shale dusek rtsg mot com \( james p dusek \) writes ccdarg dct ac uk \( alan greig \) writes cultists \) think 'll quote bbc quoting \( actually voice interview \) one two british survivors claimed fire started tanks caused internal wooden wall roof collapse knocking kerosene lamps suicide plan fbi started fire , didn`t people flee burning building \? assuming fire caused lanterns stoves knocked tanks pushing walls \( would shake building pretty good \) perhaps n't flee fleeing would meant entering fire side \? like surrounded fire , rubble , finally \( combined teargas , combustion gasses \) overcame \? words trapped flames , heat , fumes rubble \? sound plausable \? dramatic korash forcing stay , shooting \( shot victims found yet \) , plausable pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc 1 207 \( pat myrto \) seattle , wa else fails , try ! uunet ! pilchuck ! rwing ! pat wisdom two things infinite universe human stupidity , sure former albert einstien
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject street stories organization stratus computer , inc lines 30 distribution world nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article 1993apr23 zeus calpoly edu , tuba calpoly edu \( sean lawrence parker \) writes caught last bit street stories segment woman guns caught eye two woman shown program mass carrying concealed obtain ccw mass \? \( ordinary citizen \) ccw 's issued discretion police chief , varies town town town , forget anything target sport \( carry gun club hunting area \) unless 're mr large daily deposits \( life n't worth shit , money , 's important \) towns , treat law abiding citizens like adults secret game hint never know rules changed change police chief throw town either side board fun whole family ! chiefs grant personal protection permit attacked threatened blue suited assholes known count negative applicants 's crap shoot , rights stakes cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
robert isgtec com \( robert osborne \) subject waco distribution na lines 77 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 cross posted talk politics guns politics mark g \( mark ampr org \) wrote cmk world std com \( charles kozierok \) writes waco , texas lately \? yes , government takes care us , n't \? long belong government sanctioned religion excuse , n't gun cult members threaten , shoot kill people \? threatened one neighbours thought little strange kind people would want live next door one version batf serving search warrant jumping horse trailer guns tossing concussion grenades true order events 'cult' could know search warrant served since proof guys police , 'cult' every right defend shows tactics , convinces realy belong society watch actual footage fire start finish clear fire n't started tanks people survived claiming fire started tanks knocking kerosene lanterns fbi claiming 'cult' started fire 'they realy belong catchy phrase i'm personally waiting see texas rangers say pass judgment n't interesting facts waco incident 1 \) original assault conducted batf officers wearing assorted types saw , cnn , least three different types would hard pressed identify bunch guys battle uniformed officers law even claiming police 2 \) batf lying beginning handguns original footage showed 4 batf officers roof top getting shot , one mp 5 assault sub machine gun gunned sub machine guns shotguns best quarters weapon , ca n't gunned best guns available job n't know guns would shoot doors ! one best , guns wo n't shoot household door , house wall matter since officers bureau alcohol , tobacco , firearms know , either lying incredibly incompetent mention criminally negligent shooting bullets think stop encounter plywood search warrant actually , arrest warrant , wait , yeah , 's ticket oh , 're child molesters make drugs mention think rocket launchers story batf fbi changed daily claims getting increasingly outrageous 3 \) throughout siege fbi batf claiming one biggest concerns koresh followers would mass suicide claiming 's surprised huh \? think anything fbi batf say taken grain two salt rob robert osborne ! uunet ca ! isgtec ! robert robert isgtec com
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization stratus computer , inc lines 32 distribution world nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article oracle nl , nl oracle com \( jason durbin \) writes even half speculations conspiracy made true , would expect people calling atf , fbi , texas rangers , congress branches us government immediately disbanded exceptions well , 're goes prove still n't understand 're saying jeez , people really beleive crap \? also beleive zionist occupation government tooth fairy \? 've lived bombing cambodia lai inflated body counts vietnam funding watergate kent state domestic spying cia edwin 's pornography commission war drugs civil seizure move disaster la disaster waco really believe government always right \? admittedly mistakes made attribute malice rather stupidity \? watch news next couple months watch whole government initiated debacle turns shouting gun control 's already started cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject change name \? \? organization stratus computer , inc lines 18 distribution world nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article well sf ca us , well sf ca us \( hudson h \) writes suggest another name change thomas parsli vidkun quisling really uncalled cannot expect european , growing culture rulers subjects , immediately grasp concepts individual independence citizen us 's less fault also ca n't grasp cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject upon time organization stratus computer , inc lines 35 distribution world nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article 1993apr23 4401 swan pyr , pyr swan ac uk \( r b \) writes american european universities full angry young people \( tm \) wanted overthrow government , would n't think twice molotov cocktail national guard \( military police europe \) certainly , would bad form take anything system \( tm \) said face value end sixties begining seventies , i'm told young remember something wrong happened along way , i'm afraid maybe west became comfortable , maybe born late \( , disappointed youth today , n't ironic i'm generation , remember lesson cry see postings domestic edu sites swallowed everything government seen fit feed especially contrasted post uk yet 2 \) difference lining 90 people wall executing , causing deaths negligence honestly hope witnessed latter say , alternative horrible contemplate suspect saw latter however , injustice implied letting involved escape without investigation prosecution also horrible contemplate cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
andy sail stanford edu \( andy freeman \) subject gun talk state legislative update keywords gun talk organization computer science department , stanford university distribution usa lines 17 article lairdb crash cts com lairdb crash cts com \( laird p broadfield \) writes cbnews cb att com lvc cbnews cb att com \( larry cipriani \) writes william douglas noted , powerful sponsor lacking , individual liberty spite glowing opinions resounding constitutional phrases excellent quote looked 'c' nra given us \? one might well ask ca gun owners given nra national nra n't march get things passed provide convenient label local activities activists andy
pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) subject analysis second amendment \( gun control \) organization totally unorganized lines 267 article 1993apr21 ra msstate edu whale st usm edu \( donald r newcomb \) writes first , would like say much appreciate literate individual mr rutledge discuss topic frankly , anti rkba posters refuse even approach topic original understanding bill rights detailed writings era refreshing second , must apologize leaving discussion several days brigade 's quarterly drill weekend needed attend several matters pertaining state militia people seem feel concept militia place 20th century i'm sure swiss would agree think perhaps discussion militia , organized unorganized , fits defense plans state , mississippi please assume describes something peculiar one southern state instance , commonwealth massachusetts well organized militia , members report , maintains stocks riot guns machine guns laws states vary probably similar appears time article \( originally posted larry cipriani last year , saved \) gets posted offers good analysis meaning second amendment , especially regarding militia clause , seen seen similar bone fides enjoy \( flames dev null \) begin enclosed article unabridged second amendment j neil schulman wanted know big bang , 'd ring carl sagan , right \? wanted know desert warfare , man call would norman , question would call wanted top expert american usage , tell meaning second amendment united states constitution \? question asked c brocki , editorial coordinator los angeles unified school district formerly senior editor houghton publishers recommended foremost expert english usage los angeles school system mr brocki told get touch roy copperud , retired professor journalism university southern california author american usage style consensus little research lent support brocki 's opinion professor copperud 's expertise roy copperud newspaper writer major three decades distinguished 17 year career teaching journalism usc since 1952 , copperud writing column dealing professional aspects journalism editor publisher , weekly magazine focusing journalism field 's usage panel american heritage dictionary , merriam webster 's usage dictionary frequently cites expert copperud 's fifth book usage , american usage style consensus , continuous print van since 1981 , winner association american publisher 's humanities award sounds like expert brief telephone call professor copperud introduced give indication interested , sent following letter writing ask professional opinion expert english usage , analyze text second amendment united states constitution , extract intent text text second amendment , 'a well regulated militia , necessary security free state , right people keep bear arms , shall infringed ' debate amendment whether first part sentence , 'a well regulated militia , necessary security free , restrictive clause subordinate clause , respect independent clause containing subject sentence , 'the right people keep bear arms , shall infringed ' would request analysis sentence take consideration issues political impact public policy , restricted entirely linguistic analysis meaning intent , since professional analysis likely become part litigation regarding consequences second amendment , ask whatever analysis make professional opinion would willing stand behind reputation , even willing testify oath support , necessary letter framed several questions test second amendment , concluded realize asking take major responsibility task letter , citizen , believe important extract actual meaning second amendment ask analysis affected political importance results , ask importance several letters phone calls , discussed terms analysis , never discussed either opinions regarding second amendment , gun control , political subject , professor copperud sent follow analysis \( inserted questions sake clarity \) copperud words 'a well regulated militia , necessary security free state , ' contrary interpretation cited letter july 26 , 1991 , constitutes present , rather clause used adjective , modifying , ' followed main clause sentence \( subject 'the right' , verb \) keep bear arms asserted essential maintaining militia reply numbered questions schulman \( 1 \) sentence interpreted grant right keep bear arms solely 'a well regulated \? copperud \( 1 \) sentence restrict right keep bear arms , state imply possession right elsewhere others people simply makes positive statement respect right people schulman \( 2 \) 'the right people keep bear granted words second amendment , second amendment assume right people keep bear arms , merely state right \? copperud \( 2 \) right granted amendment existence assumed thrust sentence right shall preserved inviolate sake ensuring militia schulman \( 3 \) right people keep bear arms conditioned upon whether well regulated militia , , fact necessary security free state , condition existing , statement 'the right people keep bear arms , shall null void \? copperud \( 3 \) condition expressed implied right keep bear arms said amendment depend existence militia condition stated implied relation right keep bear arms necessity well regulated militia requisite security free state right keep bear arms deemed unconditional entire sentence schulman \( 4 \) clause 'a well regulated militia , necessary security free state , ' grant right government place conditions 'right people keep bear arms , ' right deemed unconditional meaning entire sentence \? copperud \( 4 \) right assumed exist unconditional , previously stated invoked specifically sake militia schulman \( 5 \) following phrase 'well regulated mean 'well , 'well organized , ' 'well drilled , ' 'well educated , ' regulations superior \? copperud \( 5 \) phrase means regulations superior authority ' accords desire writers civilian control military schulman \( 6 \) \( possible , would ask take account changed meanings words , usage , since sentence written 200 years ago , take account historical interpretations intents authors , unless issues clearly separated copperud best knowledge , change meaning words usage would affect meaning amendment written today , might put since well regulated militia necessary tot security free state , right people keep bear arms shall abridged ' schulman 'scientific control' analysis , would also appreciate could compare analysis text second amendment following sentence , well schooled electorate , necessary security free state , right people keep read books , shall infringed ' questions usage analysis sentence would , \( 1 \) grammatical structure usage sentence way words modify , identical second amendment 's sentence \? \( 2 \) could sentence interpreted restrict 'the right people keep read 'a well educated example , registered voters high school diploma \? copperud \( 1 \) 'scientific control' sentence precisely parallels amendment grammatical structure \( 2 \) nothing sentence either indicates implies possibility restricted interpretation professor copperud one additional comment , placed cover letter well known human curiosity , made speculative efforts decide material might used , unable reach conclusion told one top experts american usage many knew along constitution united states unconditionally protects people 's right keep bear arms , forbidding governments formed constitution abridging right write , attempted coup constitutional government soviet union failed , apparently people part world free tyranny stronger old guard 's desire maintain monopoly power united states , elected lawmakers , judges , appointed officials pledged defend constitution united states ignore , , second amendment routinely american citizens put american prisons carrying arms , owning arms forbidden sorts , failing satisfy bureaucratic requirements regarding owning carrying firearms unconditional right people keep bear arms , guaranteed constitution even american civil liberties union \( aclu \) , staunch defender rest bill rights , stands nothing seems believe right keep bear arms preserve right one else one else beg elected representatives take away rights , continue regarding representing us \? continue obeying judges decide second amendment n't mean says means means whatever say means doublespeak \? simply keep bear arms choice , constitution united states promises us , pledge defend promise lives , , sacred honor \? \( c \) 1991 new gun week second amendment foundation informational reproduction entire article hereby authorized provided author , new gun week second amendment foundation credited rights reserved author j neil schulman award winning author novels endorsed anthony nobel economist milton friedman , writer cbs twilight zone episode time traveling historian prevents jfk assassination 's also founder president publishing , first publishing company distribute books via personal computers modems recently , schulman founded committee enforce second amendment \( \) , intends see individual 's right keep bear arms recognized constitutional protection equal afforded first , fourth , fifth , ninth fourteenth amendments j neil schulman may reached bookstore , 24 hour bbs 213 827 \( 9600 baud \) mail address po box 94 , long beach , ca genie address end enclosed article pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc 1 207 \( pat myrto \) seattle , wa else fails , try ! uunet ! pilchuck ! rwing ! pat wisdom two things infinite universe human stupidity , sure former albert einstien
andy sail stanford edu \( andy freeman \) subject clinton joins list genocidal socialist leaders organization computer science department , stanford university lines 12 've yet meet group baptists stockpiling cambell 's soup 16 's ar 15 's banging marrying thirteen yuear olds one exception , 's pretty good description many baptists know exception know difference 16 ar 15 heck even know looks like richard petty 's stock car n't mean 's racing stock car may , 've figured appearance n't function andy
andy sail stanford edu \( andy freeman \) subject gun control organization computer science department , stanford university lines 24 article zeus tamu edu djh4484 zeus tamu edu \( , daniel joseph \) writes well regulated militia , security free state , right people keep bear arms shall infringed regulated \? regulated means controlled ! security \? may mean 1993 , relevant meaning comes 1789 moreover , controlled n't tell 's fletcher 's political works , pub 'd 1749 , defines well regulated militia , relevant phrase , armed people control govt argued used way feel free provide era reference showing usage individual right , interfered govt note first clause meaning restriction govt military power see 's university penn law review article extended discussion existence well regulated militia necessary part restriction , sufficient andy
andy sail stanford edu \( andy freeman \) subject criminals machineguns organization computer science department , stanford university distribution usa lines 60 article cs uiuc edu kratz cs uiuc edu \( jason kratz \) writes 1993apr16 csd newshost stanford edu andy sail stanford edu \( andy freeman \) writes article 93104 uicvm uic edu jason kratz u28037 uicvm uic edu writes people getting killed gang violence every day \? every single day hear people getting killed gang violence see confiscated kratz claiming reliably visually distinguish 16 ar 15 \? see difference semi auto full auto uzi \? see difference various versions \( full auto , semi auto \) 11 9 \? well , let see uzi , 11 9 , see question asked full autos kratz accurately distinguish semi auto look also included semi auto guns list see 'd ask distinguish non existent full auto relatives let 's former kratz claimed visually distinguish full autos semi autos full autos making claim \? \? let 's get specific , exhaustive possible 16 ar 15 , maybe remember selector ar 15 remember correctly \( please correct i'm wrong \) switch would set position position gun \( ar 15 \) semi automatic would n't 16 position semi auto fire full auto fire \( maybe 3 round bursts \) \? maybe \? kratz asking told us knows \? kratz certain distinguish three position switch two position switch via tv inspection \? \( even get see switch typical police display guns \? \) note one might well able see sort thing hands visual inspection even though wo n't seen tv think kratz telling us seeing tv accurate guns \? also selector switch switch semi auto fully auto fire \? questions \? kratz assured us could make distinction 's asking us well , said \? correct guess tv would acceptable \( good enough picture picture lower receiver ar 15 16 \) \? demonstrates , predicted , kratz blowing smoke andy gave kratz chance back private jason kratz n't take andy 's offer back private andy wonders kratz learning
howland reston ans net ! usenet ins cwru edu ! news csuohio edu ! vmcms csuohio edu ! r1328 subject gun buy back r1328 vmcms csuohio edu organization csu lines 150 article clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) writes article r1328 vmcms csuohio edu r1328 vmcms csuohio edu writes article 1993apr22 rti rti org jbs rti rti org writes article r1328 vmcms csuohio edu r1328 vmcms csuohio edu writes gun buyback programs hopefully impact accidental shootings \( especially youths \) , domestic disputes gun available heat emotion anger , maybe keep guns stolen later used street level crime gives idea gun buyback programs impact things \? evidence , please \? please n't saying joe making point tha evidence effect gun buyback programs hopefully effect may prevent injuries deaths one types common incidents 're research associate urban child research , perhaps comment us ratio accidental gun death rate rate accidental death single causes \? follow perhaps sort justification amount effort anti gunners spend trying convince country accidental gun related death among children u serious problem firearms fifth leading cause unintentional deaths among children ages 14 n't understand ratio accidental deaths important guns n't kill many children car accidents difference severity 1 , 000 deaths 10 , 000 deaths \? trying use accidental gun related deaths among children justification gun control needs convinced accidental gun deaths children serious problem \? assumed humane person would concerned 10 year old got hold parents gun bedroom drawer accidently blew away one friends death serious wanna discuss match control \? firearms related unintentional deaths among children ages 14 fault one negligent persons , gun say child unintentionally shoots someone negligent \? hate repeat jim , like told joe , attempting way justify gun control 're right , death serious point joe said anti gunners try country accidental gun deaths related children serious problem guess assumed everyone thought problem , n't want discuss match control n't equate book matches loaded 9 millimeter either n't confuse issue please n't say tired old nra line guns n't kill people , people kill people sure , people kill people without guns easy access guns makes lot convenient guns n't kill people , people easy access guns kill people anything , gun buyback programs symbolic offerings community sense , think might little good please explain think symbolic offerings good point , gun buyback programs almost always run police departments might \( stress might \) little \( stress little \) good giving people impression police attempting respond interpersonal gun violence unique way overall , thought made clear think gun buyback programs useful providing false hope , , intent \? jim , i'm saying i'm saying good thing police talked run gun buyback programs , get impression really think impact community ask component program , say well , answer question , , false hope intent think intent show folks police attempting something interpersonal gun violence whether effective look , ca n't measure impact programs using sort pre test post test evaluation , point \? must symbolic nature police essentially saying look , gun lying around n't want , 'll give 50 care community , joe could think way measure effectiveness programs could become rich famous know vast majority guns used youths brought school youths daily basis \( 135 , 000 youths \) obtained easily quickly , personal friend , often borrowed parent without knowledge suggest go back look wherever saw statistics suspect 'll find look carefully 135 , 000 number students estimated carried weapon \( necessarily gun \) school least past year , number students carry gun school daily well joe , suggest talk center prevent handgun violence centers disease control look carefully see greatly underestimate presence guns lives youths cphv reports 135 , 000 youth bring guns school daily 400 , 000 bring guns school least year cdc estimates 1 0f 25 high school students carried gun school least 1990 cdc also says 1 2 million elementary aged , latch key children \( kids come home school empty house \) , access guns home california schools reported 200 increase student gun 1986 1990 , 40 increase 1988 1990 florida reported 61 percent increase gun incidents schools 1986 87 amd 1987 88 statistics 200 increase california schools , eh \? gun control working fine , ! n't anything gun control , talking \? thus willing follow man claimed messiah \( got news folks , big cheese crazy planet presently , would carrying gun holding children danger \) holding kids \? time reality check , son kids children people inside believed forces evil outside waiting kill would send children door believed \? okay , maybe worded wrong dad meant put children situation \( fortified compound \) harm could come act messiah opinion i'm saying koresh control children directly , would hope whatever messiah would let innocent children die claimed messiah people followed , tell parents free children instead letting burn alive \? thanks reality check joe , real religion different make wrong \? even assuming koresh actually made decision , verdict still jim , listen , said i'm religious whatsoever , understand \? religion nothing could care less religion okay \? put children situation wrong , pure simple difference good jim , progressive diverse person world , different allowing kids exposed tanks tear gas , yes jim , different wrong
! ! ! white ! sapphire rtsg mot com ! shale ! dusek subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! dusek rtsg mot com \( james p dusek \) organization motorola inc , cellular infrastructure group nntp posting host shale lines 10 ccdarg dct ac uk \( alan greig \) writes cultists \) think 'll quote bbc quoting \( actually voice interview \) one two british survivors claimed fire started tanks caused internal wooden wall roof collapse knocking kerosene lamps suicide plan fbi started fire , didn`t people flee burning building \? james dusek
crphilli hound dazixca ingr com \( ron phillips \) subject 's next \? mormons jews \? nntp posting host hound reply crphilli hound dazixca ingr com organization intergraph electronics , mountain view , ca distribution usa lines 22 article world std com , rjk world std com \( robert j kolker \) writes thank remembering insane act sanctification g 's name extreme denial tyranny possible day officers \( isreal defense force \) take oath fortress lo matzadah matzadah fall ! anymore ! recent archaeological inspection site presents pretty compelling evidence mass suicide masada never occured evidence compelling tha long hold secret ceremony fortress ron phillips crphilli hound dazixca ingr com senior customer engineer intergraph electronics 381 east evelyn avenue voice \( 415 \) 691 6473 mountain view , ca 94041 fax \( 415 \) 691 0350
crphilli hound dazixca ingr com \( ron phillips \) subject waco questions nntp posting host hound reply crphilli hound dazixca ingr com organization intergraph electronics , mountain view , ca distribution usa lines 137 folks , 's time start building precise questions send federal elected officials investigative reporters local tv , radio media ideally , questions could asked investigation batf 's fbi 's participation waco fiasco hopes resolved , hopefully , wake local news media getting entire truth batf fbi list 13 really nagging gut list probably grow 1 contents original warrant , sealed , batf obtained \? 2 reasonable believe illegal firearms ammunition could flushed toilet therefore , knock raid could ruled prior initial assault complex , single batf agent accompanying witness \( without contingent assault news media personnel \) attempt knock door branch davidian 's complex serve warrant manner prescribed law \? 3 day initial assault complex , batf agents aware several small children inside buildings gun battle , batf agents fired building known contain children , killing least one two year old child knowing children present , n't batf alternate plan immediately retreat area close complex implement alternate plan rather opening fire lives children building \? 4 fbi spokesman states paper evidence indicates david koresh members branch davidians possessed 200 , 000 firearms ammunition david koresh members branch davidians valid federal firearms license , actively participating legal business selling buying firearms ammunition , weapons illegally possessed \? paper evidence consist weapons purchased include legally weapons 5 original assault compound tragically failed , batf spokeswoman stated ! yet , tv newscasts video tape filmed time incident show batf agents armed mp 5 ar 15 rifles although unclear video tape obstruction full view agent 's bodies , also may ak 47 sks rifles type \( \) firearms batf agents immediate access scene original assault complex \? 6 since evidence confirm anyone inside complex , fbi treat hostage situation \? 7 along lines , fbi use psychological warfare techniques , including sensory overload , sleep deprivation , disruptive techniques would test sanity normal person rather using techniques aimed placing complex occupants frame mind \? 8 reports indicate several children inside complex accompanied mothers since reasonable expect mothers would children taken away came , fbi expect mothers walk surrender authorities \? 9 agents scene claim seen members branch davidians setting fire complex branch davidian members survived inferno claim fire started armored vehicle punched wall knocked lantern setting table video tape incident show armored vehicle punching hole wall fire erupted almost immediately general location source fire room armored vehicle penetrated \? 10 fbi opinion david koresh members branch davidians committed mass suicide yet , bodies discovered throughout house areas within building complex seems counter known mass suicides history evidence fbi mass suicide pact existed \? 11 fbi director sessions stated massive fireball shown video tape caused branch davidian 's ammunition powder cache exploding yet , fireball seems characteristic type created compressed gas highly volatile fuel source explodes evidence found would indicate branch davidians ammunition powder cache exploded create fireball \? , david koresh members branch davidians engaged legal business selling buying firearms , amount determined excessively greater one would expect someone engaged legal business \? 12 rumored one fbi agent extremely upset critical news media coverage intentionally used armored vehicle crush reporter 's car left compound factual basis rumor , , charges brought fbi agent performed act \? 13 fbi director sessions states , final assault complex , 80 shots fired vehicles video tape incident , hear armored vehicles engines yet , sound sharp reports one would expect hear shots fired also , indications smoke muzzle flashes appearing windows , buildings structures video surely , evident branch davidians fired armored vehicles finally , video tape show indication paint , sparks characteristic spray material apparent branch davidians fired upon vehicles armored vehicles brought pump tear gas compound show evidence fresh damage due hit shots high power rifles \? 14 cs gas considered chemical warfare agent united states signed international treaties prevent use cs gas warfare united states could morally use cs gas saddam hussein troops , morally acceptable use agent citizens land \? 15 april 21 , fbi state least 3 bodies discovered complex bullet wounds head indicating murdered committed suicide april 22 , county coroner claims knows nothing bodies found bullet wounds head victims bodies found within burned complex bullet wounds head \? ron phillips crphilli hound dazixca ingr com senior customer engineer intergraph electronics 381 east evelyn avenue voice \( 415 \) 691 6473 mountain view , ca 94041 fax \( 415 \) 691 0350
gardner convex com \( steve gardner \) subject atf burns dividian ranch update distribution usa nntp posting host imagine convex com organization engineering , convex computer corp , richardson , tx , usa x disclaimer message written user convex computer corp opinions expressed user necessarily convex lines 33 article 8mg news cso uiuc edu irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \( brent irvine \) writes , though , black soot billowing outside compound added fast fire spread someone dousing large parts compound sort gasoline fire starter lots house fires give black smoke far speed fire winds 30mph least day guess 're forgetting way oakland berkeley looked back 91 folks use \? smg doubt feds interested arresting vernon real unbalanced one \( least one lost cool \) vernon , figured likely \( jesus persecuted authorities , followers hold onto , made decision followers also probably felt heaven stuff \) conclusion , came umpteen million hours listening npr radio shows \( always radio going office talk show news program background noise \) personal opinions \? , brent irvine yes think irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \?
fiddler concertina eng sun com \( steve hix \) subject evil tax dollars work , atf burns ranch etc etc organization sun lines 28 nntp posting host concertina article 93112 psuvm psu edu mark 'mark' sachs mbs110 psuvm psu edu writes article 93112 153005mgb slacvm slac stanford edu , p according numerous accounts compound , fire started armoured vehicle crushing large propane tank , turning numerous gas lanterns oh \? smoke flames start three different places \? particular , three different places apv 's \? according ap report \( texas , written aron \) morning , gas pumped cs generators , canisters tear gas thrown building armored vehicles , one canisters hitting man inside face part article going differences stories told bd survivors gov't tear gas canisters used able start fires things important give away everybody else none left dieter car salesman
fontenot ravl rice edu \( dwayne jacques fontenot \) subject fbi stupid organization rice university lines 26 hello , want make 2 points 1 \) fbi stupid people chosen intelligence , education , loyalty government , etc given much intensive training , refuse believe could conspiracy , say fbi stupid , say n't believe 2 \) fbi latest audio video technology latest digital systems fbi manufacture evidence need tape koresh saying , light fire , one need thermal imaging video three people lighting fires , magic computer graphics , one thing , manufacturing pieces evidence takes time may days get see maybe n't heard tapes seen fbi video 1 \) classified 2 \) gruesome eyes 3 \) lost got coffee spilled dwayne jacques fontenot btw , get information live video feeds read papers , almost everything contradicts seen eyes
ssd kodak com \( frank brown 726 \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization eastman kodak lines 56 article clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) writes article dusek shale dusek rtsg mot com \( james p dusek \) writes ccdarg dct ac uk \( alan greig \) writes cultists \) think 'll quote bbc quoting \( actually voice interview \) one two british survivors claimed fire started tanks caused internal wooden wall roof collapse knocking kerosene lamps suicide plan fbi started fire , didn`t people flee burning building \? n't know , \? ap story fri morning walls came tear gas filled air , cult leader david koresh sprang action left third floor bedroom began looking around house , making sure women children secure checking everyone gas masks properly within hours , compound became inferno nine branch davidians story , gleaned lawyers spoke six jailed charges include conspiracy murder day six said portable radio offered contact outside world since koresh 's right hand man , steve schneider , ripped compounds 's phone line fbi agents called dawn monday saying cults last chance come prepare get forced kept word dawn , tanks mount carmel compound , punching hours holes tear gas enter bd meanwhile proceeded daily routines strapped gas masks , women laundry others read bibles rooms 17 children , 10 , remained sides still , hard ignore happening around time tank rammed poorly constructed building shook violently cult members falling doors hundreds gas canisters hurled armored vehicles filling air noxious fumes flying canisters frightening tanks least one man hit face gas began filling air , driven heavy gusts wind coming windows holes tanks made scattered throughout house , cult members made efforts gather fbi sent biggest weapon massive armored vehicle headed chamber , lined cinder blocks , authorities hoped find koresh schneider fire tear gas directly cult story government 's version fbi says cult members set fires three places six cult members , separate discussions lawyers , consistently gave versions odds fbi 's account say tank flattened barrel propane , spilling contents tank house , tipped lit lanterns , spitting flames ignited propane home used lumber , plywood , tacked together tar paper vulnerable building erupted nine bd 's escaped jumping windows others died groping frank
cs okstate edu \( alexander michael \) subject batf acronym organization oklahoma state university , computer science , stillwater lines 28 article hpfcso fc hp com hpfcso fc hp com \( ross \) writes diederic spot colorado edu \( andrew diederich \) writes b , f ed ! one made last night bureau assault , theft , frame ups try one , favorite around bureau assholes , , remember , created infernal revenue code soon discovered rock thing true jerry lee lewis devil jesus architect previous career prophet sudden , found love world , one thing could ding ding dang dang long ling long
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject hr 1276 \( gun law live ! \) organization stratus computer , inc lines 45 distribution usa nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article 1993apr21 dg rtp dg com , meyers leonardo rtp dg com \( bill meyers \) writes bill establish right obtain firearms security , use firearms defense self , family , home , provide enforcement right article transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) writes maybe i'm religious , see bill establish right , keep mind , law giveth , law taketh away hey , guys 're absolutely correct , well way winning battle losing war yes , serious philosophical flaws hr 1276 technical ones , 'd like sue feds , lose , pay reasonable attorney 's fee \? \) still , one basic question compared 've got hr 1276 \( \) better , \( b \) worse \? one n't even take three guesses compared second amendment \? think 's worse problem , devil details know , brady bill sounds like good idea , discover check , police allow purchase even check , recourse n't loopholes \? i'm lawyer , ca n't sure would never noticed second one mentioned brady bill , example words involved , details saying abraham lincoln requiring 200 words free slaves , modern congress requiring 3 , 000 , 000 words describe price controls rice \? 's good enough show support hr 1276 , maybe change could ones saying 's reasonable first step works bad laws good laws like good computer programs quality written start , added later cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject photographers removed compound organization stratus computer , inc lines 41 distribution na nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article bus news udel edu , roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) writes find disturbing good keep thinking critically wo n't feel free like need tips \) seriously , insulted , apologize tiresome thing group many people tell others sucking government ever decide something government says plausible praise independent thinkers whenever find something government says implausible people sucking government decide things government says plausible especially refuse consider reasonable alternatives however , saw tv news last night , 's longer necessary independent thinker depart government 's party line looks like independent press may actually starting earn clothes , , good sign hope continues 's clue independent thinkers able come either conclusion depending circumstances non critical thinkers ones would always come type conclusion regardless circumstances independent thinkers question authority situation one set facts presented , coming conclusion hallmark independent thinker unless 's coupled ability challenge facts critically scientific method consists choosing popular hypothesis 's even choosing two hypotheses people proposed cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject evil tax dollars work , atf burns ranch etc etc organization stratus computer , inc lines 40 distribution world nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article 93112 psuvm psu edu , mark 'mark' sachs mbs110 psuvm psu edu writes find tremendously chilling many people seem eager believe murderous , heavily armed religious cult , despite much evidence contrary murderous , huh \? yeah , sorts carnage going 60 years government assaulted oh , forgot probably consider self defense murder thought experiment suppose exact thing happened bush administration would answer \? would still prefer believe cultists \? damn right partisan thing 's individual liberties right citizen left hell alone \( , n't really expect response challenge \) 's another indication n't understand issue particular reason gummint decided slaughter eighty people \? , like , plain evil , \? wake one day , stretch yawn , throw dart map united states figure oppress day \? i'm eager know maybe said appropriations coming soon need good pr boost let 's find socially unpopular group happen lot guns , go like , heros , local media get video tape wo n't worry budget next year bill clinton look good cape \? n't one match jogging outfit \? cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject clinton joins list genocidal socialist leaders organization stratus computer , inc lines 34 distribution world nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article 1993apr23 starbase trincoll edu , \( \) writes article rdt usenet ins cwru edu , bu008 cleveland freenet edu perhaps 've rock last days \? batf fbi federal agencies clinton admitted front news cameras janet reno \( future attorney general \) gave full briefing planned , gave go ahead maybe , possibly , makes bit responsible \? perhaps 've rock since , say , turn century one man supposed review every single freaking governmental action , every day \? 's executive branch reviewed plan said go , n't architect n't , hand , implementing yes , responsible sense briefed ! shit happens hey , joe assuming 're old enough remember feel presidential responsibility every time reagan said n't recall arms hostages meetings ollie north gang \? feel bush said loop decision right thick \? oh , right responsible sense briefed , shit happens ! said \? joe kusmierczak mail trincoll edu cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
subject bd 's 're paranoid freaks kmcvay oneb almanac bc ca \( ken mcvay \) organization old frog 's almanac lines 45 article boi hp com boi hp com \( jeff \) writes hear thermal imaging \? n't heard yet \( doubt , i'm looking sources \) reported canadian papers thursday , 22 april think source upi , n't recall certain seems kind info , could broadcast would resolve \( least help resolve \) alot doubt people 's minds personally , way \( fbi batf reno etc \) claiming sorts things without offering one shred proof \( good word \) suspicious picture worth thousand words understand least two goverment investigations ordered , may learn hearings sincerely hope right turns \( indisputable proof broadcast across land \) government groups nothing fire see proof , think likely tank knock lantern koresh place evidence seen tank crashing front wall , withdrawing , seconds later flames seen \( first flames video \) erupting spot coincidence \? perhaps tough call without investigation , thermal imaging story holds , think government course , paranoia fans wo n't believe results anyway , \? proof exists , government publish put speculation rest hear , hear ! 'd also like see autopsy reports confirm news reports multiple victims found shot \( head \) , positions inconsistent fire victims simply early draw conclusions either way nasty incident , tend believe government side old frog 's almanac salute old frog hisse'f , ryugen fisher \( 604 \) 245 3205 \( v32 \) \( 604 \) 245 4366 \( 2400x4 \) sco xenix 2 3 2 gt ladysmith , british columbia , canada serving central vancouver island public access usenet internet mail home holocaust almanac
hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) subject hallam baker \( welcome police state usa \) lines 41 reply hallam zeus02 desy de organization desydeutsches elektronen synchrotron , experiment zeus bei hera article 1993apr22 cs okstate edu , kennejs cs okstate edu \( kennedy james scot \) writes article dscomsa desy de , hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) anyone wants understand paranoid mindset koresh offer talk politics guns minds hung power ego trips bend reality arround particular set hell base ludicrous claim \? plenty fine , decent people people read post p g people paranoid people like hey dude making paranoid ! argument ! ! ! long ago gave arguing case arms control directly instead invite people ask , would want room full occupants talk politics guns , personal attempt enter discussion \? 'd spot tea \) probably gave arguing case arms control directly long ago posters know talking \( e g , frank crary \) disproved arguments gun control needed , gave know right could n't refute answers , frank crary 's arguments based assumption people sane , normal people tpg disproves gun owners usenet whole disproves humanity whole proof positive guns n't make safer buy lot guns either get shot knock raid get fbi burn house see even paranoid mindset tpg good reasons support gun control 'n kisses phill
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject gun like american express card organization stratus computer , inc lines 128 distribution world nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article rpi edu , mercury ral rpi edu \( lee \) writes cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) writes something like 12 guns used crime us purchased legitimate dealers \( necessarily person used crime \) already much gun control 've seen mentioned number times i'm curious source statistic \? number bounces 2 18 , depending study quoted type gun studied cites recent batf study \( titled protecting america , yes \) surveyed 471 career criminals found 7 guns used violent crimes purchased retail dealers national institute justice research brief november 1986 armed criminal america james wright \( 1 \) legitimate firearms retailers play minor role direct sources handguns adult felony offenders one sixth gun owning felons obtained recent handguns customary retail transaction involving licensed firearms dealer remainder five six obtained via informal , record transactions involving friends associates , family members , various black market outlets means acquisition informal sources included cash purchase , trades , borrowing renting , often theft criminal handgun market overwhelmingly dominated informal transactions theft mechanisms supply independence issue paper 4 91 independence institute denver west parkway 101 golden , co \( 303 \) 279 gun waiting periods threaten public safety david b kopel basic problem waiting periods shown bureau alcohol , tobacco firearms study gun dealer sales des moines greenville study found one two percent sales dangerous criminals 51 short , waiting periods statistically noticeable impact type crime tiny fraction crime guns purchased retail buyers 51 bureau alcohol , tobacco firearms , assistant director criminal enforcement , memorandum director , july 10 , 1975 \( greenville survey 20 , 047 names submitted fbi record checks , 68 felony convictions , 41 represented counsel conviction committed crimes distant past twenty seven buyers prosecuted \) \( 1 3 buyers selected prosecution , 9 non violent felony convictions , 4 violent convictions \) bureau alcohol , tobacco firearms , assistant director criminal enforcement , memorandum director , may 8 , 1975 \( 374 records checked , 39 purchasers felony records appropriate prosecution age non violent nature felony six purchasers prosecuted \) independence issue paper 12 91 assault weapon panic political correctness takes aim constitution eric morgan david kopel testimony congress revealed assault weapons hands criminals obtained illegal channels 97 testimony consistent national institute justice 's research findings based studies felons state prisons nu study , authored james wright peter rossi found sixteen percent criminals obtained recent handgun gun store \( figures included purchases legal surrogates , rather directly criminal \) wright rossi , begun research firm proponents gun control , concluded set controls retail purchases , probably even full scale gun prohibition , would reduce criminal use guns wright rossi suggested lawmakers concerned gun crime directly target black market criminal guns , leave legitimate retail market alone 98 surprisingly , wright believes consequences current assault weapon legislation street violence likely ineffective 99 warns gun controls aimed ordinary citizens less likely reduce pool criminal guns provide organized crime lucrative new business 100 6 see , e g , anti drug , assault weapons limitation act 1989 rep 160 , , 1st 6 8 \( 1989 \) senate report \( introduced senator deconcini reduce semiautomatic firearms abuse drug violent criminals \) roos assault weapons control act 1989 , cal penal code \( west 1990 \) roos md ann code art 27 442 , \( 1989 \) \( placing greater restrictions 17 varieties assault weapons , providing punishments failure comply attempts evade \) 97 senate report , supra note 6 , 17 98 james wright peter rossi , armed considered dangerous survey felons firearms \( new york de , 1986 \) 99 lock load '89 , u news world rep , march 27 , 1989 , 9 wright also said , criminals get drugs want , get guns , id 100 james wright , second thoughts gun control , 91 public interest \( spring 1988 \) , 30 3 1 cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) subject government biggest cult leader \? organization hand held products , inc lines 28 distribution world nntp posting host dale handheld com look , folks , n't know happened waco claim bds angels , never koresh may well devil incarnate n't know know must question single source information , must question even harder given single source government ever else happened waco , perhaps biggest evil done even light turning federal officials state officials really n't understand devoted government worshipers believe government could possibly wrong fanatic point making things , brent 's microwave oven disclaim bd 's using fire food heating hard pressed see real difference claimed power koresh held bds , demonstrated power government holds rapid apologists jim jmd handheld com i'm always rethinking 's never day n't rethought ca n't bill clinton 6 april 93 american , englishman , foreign troop landed country , never would lay arms , never never never ! william pitt , earl chatham 1708 1778 18 nov 1777
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject hallam baker \( welcome police state usa \) organization stratus computer , inc lines 20 distribution world nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article dscomsa desy de , hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) writes , frank crary 's arguments based assumption people sane , normal people tpg disproves gun owners usenet whole disproves humanity whole heavens ! everybody phill step ! proof positive guns n't make safer buy lot guns either get shot knock raid get fbi burn house see even paranoid mindset tpg good reasons support gun control , phill lets us know might makes right sacred government cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
loki acca nmsu edu \( entropic destroyer \) subject letter colorado daily organization new mexico state university lines 85 nntp posting host nmsu edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 colorado daily recently reprinted wall street journal 's article paxton quigley , including nefarious little paragraph journal tacked onto end recieving much assistance various p g type folks , wrote letter editor criticizing last paragraph , surprise , surprise , surprise , published text follows colorado daily , btw , university colorado \( boulder \) student \( think \) newspaper exactly big coup , every little bit , guess \( title thing changed added \) gun stats daily recently reprinted article wall street journal , primarily concerned paxton quigley , author armed female article , turn , cites misleading statistic originally reported new england journal medicine article states , study found gun home 43 times likely used kill owner , spouse , friend , child kill intruder often quoted statistic , misleading reasons , outlined study gives impression , gun , likelihood successfully use defend less gun turned study , however , fails take account cases law abiding citizen uses gun thwart crime , without actually killing study actually refers rather would include friendly thug shows like , every month , second grandmother social security check possibly acquaintance , hardly friend nejm study based immediate dis position cases fails take account cases originally filed homicides later ruled self defense especially considering small sample size \( 396 \) , taking events account sub effect 43 1 ratio quoted gary kleck gives us slightly dif statistic gun 33 times likely used , successfully , private citizen aggressor kill anyone , per sons defending aggression using gun fare better resist means , offer resistance statistics available fbi agencies also show gun 245 times likely used non criminal defend criminal threat used commit criminal homicide , 535 times likely used defend criminal threat accidentally kill anybody , 50 times likely defend criminal threat used commit suicide well keep mind nearly anything proved uncritical quotation statistics one consider carefully questions asked gathering data one draw rate conclusion f taylor cu department chemistry biochemistry revolution , assasination , , cobalt 60 , , cia , nsa , shc dod 202 loki acca nmsu edu liberty death taylordf ucsu colorado edu send something even ca n't read begin pgp public key block version 2 2 mqcnaitfksqaaaeeakceejwi9f5kmjykp0logc5dghrpbmy2xhoo8kpehmdyuf8a 1bfdqsj53kostz6hroshsdzlvul1 40vpjmmntfr vyz4jvd3rl4iuq2ummmex3m itf3ult8xn v qabsvhcfshvjvk4lf6wosucmo03m2tix31ai7vb0uzo4yxjaaux tcreyw5pzwwgribuyxlsb3igpexva2laywnjys5ubxn1lmvkdt4 s5ib end pgp public key block
meyers leonardo rtp dg com \( bill meyers \) subject david koresh distribution usa organization n lines 13 article usenet ucs indiana edu silver ucs indiana edu \( patricia anne \) writes david koresh concord waco tyrant 's failed though died fire koresh 's people prevailed good irony waco finale april 19 , patriot 's day day 218 years earlier , militias concord , mass , nearby towns repelled gun control raid current colonial government
jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) subject bd 's 're paranoid freaks organization hand held products , inc lines 40 distribution world nntp posting host dale handheld com article 1993apr23 7011 starbase trincoll edu \( \) writes article 1r6p8oinn8hi clem handheld com , jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) wrote made mind waco , sure seems group devoted government following fanatics willing believe whatever government wants tell , without shred doubt , thought thier sure get shrill whenever belief structure shaken kinda reminds bds , n't \? jim go hell i'm government following fanatic sweeping generalizations evince ignorance eloquently , somewhat , put supposed \? let \? well , \? fuck fuck atf , 've done right first time way words sure get shrill cue joe kusmierczak mail trincoll edu jim jmd handheld com i'm always rethinking 's never day n't rethought ca n't bill clinton 6 april 93 american , englishman , foreign troop landed country , never would lay arms , never never never ! william pitt , earl chatham 1708 1778 18 nov 1777
jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization hand held products , inc lines 40 distribution world nntp posting host dale handheld com article eagle natinst com chrisb natinst com \( chris bartz \) writes article bigboote wpi edu mfrhein wpi wpi edu \( michael frederick rhein \) writes napalm , let wood stove inside ignite heating purposes weather texas everyone claims cooking stop think whole thread rediculous cares stove going matter stove burning , lanterns burning , candles burning , someone smoking , etc , etc , etc premise fbi filling house napalm would catch fire crazy fbi pumping napalm davidians home pretty damn strong evidence convince believe mass suicide murder koresh believe accident davidians believe accident fbi easily believe mass stupidity sides believe fbi lit fire intentionally way tend agree , would like better explanation fbi stopped gate saw realtime concerns fbi appeared interested stopping fire started , actually started flying around compound , add small part winds driving fire chris bartz \( chrisb natinst com \) jim jmd handheld com i'm always rethinking 's never day n't rethought ca n't bill clinton 6 april 93 american , englishman , foreign troop landed country , never would lay arms , never never never ! william pitt , earl chatham 1708 1778 18 nov 1777
emcguire intellection com \( ed mcguire \) subject fbi director 's statement waco standoff organization intellection , inc lines 15 skates gsfc nasa gov dsc gemini gsfc nasa gov \( doug \) writes anyone cite example defense successful \? source \? please take thread tx politics talk politics guns exist tx politics , talk politics guns instead , eh \? ed mcguire 1603 lbj freeway , suite 780 systems administrator dallas , texas member technical staff 214 620 2100 , fax 214 484 intellection , inc ed intellection com 1993apr3 tygra michigan com run anonymous server staying rest life , 55 years
paul hager hagerp cs indiana edu subject evil tax dollars work , atf burns ranch etc etc organization computer science , indiana university lines 94 mark 'mark' sachs mbs110 psuvm psu edu writes article 93112 153005mgb slacvm slac stanford edu , mgb slacvm slac stanford edu says p according numerous accounts compound , fire started armoured vehicle crushing large propane tank , turning numerous gas lanterns oh \? smoke flames start three different places \? particular , three different places apv 's \? claim n't retracted contradicted yet , many earlier government claims \? least one clip showed fire erupting tank busted wall unsubstantiated claims government spotting simultaneous fires government start fire , n't people trying get compound \? 's easy six hours cs gas , heavy smoke rapidly spreading fire , confusion , panic 10 got building collapsing around finding way matter luck besides oh , n't know i'm even bothering davidians may committed suicide , zealots among might started fires possible , given government 's earlier inability tell straight story , find scenario equally possible wait independent investigation look whole thing would one thing government consistent throughout keeping press far away pools conducive building trust sealing warrants non optimal , well operation control git go find tremendously chilling many people seem willing accept governments story , despite much evidence contrary find tremendously chilling many people seem eager believe murderous , heavily armed religious cult , despite much evidence contrary thought experiment suppose exact thing happened bush administration would answer \? would still prefer believe cultists \? speaking , think bush reagan iran contra 1979 , would probably given benefit doubt government like said , 'll wait see results independent investigation one choose believe \( , n't really expect response challenge \) got one , anyway , mr clinton elected , people believe campaign promisses would respected got office um , n't politicians elected \? generally vote lesser two evils last time , least three evils people believe , little wonder believe given fact clinton reno fbi batf confederation particular reason gummint decided slaughter eighty people \? , like , plain evil , \? wake one day , stretch yawn , throw dart map united states figure oppress day \? i'm eager know bureaucratic execution control driven percieved self interest gross stupidity bill clinton cooler theme music darth vader \? diabolical laughter \? look good cape \? things must investigated first clinton another statist problem clinton apparently willing blindly back atf fbi propose destroy moon , neatly solving problem blood pressure went mark sachs mbs110 psuvm psu edu disclaimer psu knew opinions , 'd try charge paul hager hagerp moose cs indiana edu would give devil benefit law safety 's sake man seasons robert bolt
dusek rtsg mot com \( james p dusek \) subject atf burns dividian ranch update nntp posting host shale organization motorola inc , cellular infrastructure group lines 10 feustel netcom com \( david feustel \) writes 34aej7d cmuvm bitnet writes article hp col col hp com , dduff col hp com \( dave duff \) says nut case panics ! ! realizes he's made complete fool front thousands netters ! ! ! backs away earlier rash statements ! ! ! ! god mercy ! ! ! ! thought discussing koresh , president clinton dave feustel n9myi feustel netcom com dave 1 clinton 0
subject bd 's 're paranoid freaks steiner jupiter cse utoledo edu \( jason 'think ! ' steiner \) nntp posting host jupiter cse utoledo edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 15 go hell i'm government following fanatic sweeping generalizations evince ignorance supposed \? let \? upon time , 's exactly would done everyone could gone living peaceful \( well armed \) life makes people think right leave others \? jason ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` ` , ` innocence , joy , fun everyone toys ` , ` ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` steiner jupiter cse utoledo edu ` , ` , ` , `
jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) subject clinton joins list genocidal socialist leaders organization hand held products , inc lines 51 distribution world nntp posting host dale handheld com article 1993apr23 153005 8237 starbase trincoll edu \( \) writes article clem handheld com , jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) wrote seem make two points one ultimately federal agencies mention , since koresh apparently different view point baptist upbringing , worthy protection religious persecution messiah , christ within us \? must comforting belong government approved religion baptists cult , two , btw , definitions dictionary cult 've yet meet group baptists stockpiling cambell 's soup 16 's ar 15 's banging marrying thirteen yuear olds n't recall saying baptists though suppose none listed dictionary characteristics cult mother stockpiled soup sale 're sorry son bitch ca n't draw distinction two things , foul mouthed human sound like ready join kkk neo nazis , narrow mind like people like cheapen constitution using defend sociopaths n't deserved get life chill paranoia far , defend rights anyone different constitution , formed part protect religious cults persecuted england migrating free one constitution joe kusmierczak mail trincoll edu jim jmd handheld com i'm always rethinking 's never day n't rethought ca n't bill clinton 6 april 93 american , englishman , foreign troop landed country , never would lay arms , never never never ! william pitt , earl chatham 1708 1778 18 nov 1777
dhartung chinet chi il us \( dan hartung \) subject feds caught another lie organization chinet public access unix lines 28 kdw icd ab com \( kenneth whitehead \) writes well , 2 days hearing 3 bd bodies shot head \( horrors ! another jonestown ! crazed cultists ! child abusers ! waco ! \) , last night medical examiner tv pretty vehement denying bullet wounds seemed tad upset feds spread rumor funny , medical examiner today stated evidence one way another bullet wounds single autopsy performed , reports deemed speculative including reports bullet wounds long , think kneejerk government apologists going start getting pretty pissed easily misled long , think kneejerk conspiracy theorists going start getting pretty pissed easily mislead also , pretty disappointed ignored koresh cult standoff may victims recquiescat pace \( net moment silence \) daniel hartung dhartung chinet chinet com ask rotaract
dhartung chinet chi il us \( dan hartung \) subject abc confirms two points fbi 's version summary fbi call immediately experts say 3 fire sources organization chinet public access unix distribution na lines 38 well , question fire equipment took long reach compound answered abc aired report including 911 tapes monday fbi called 911 within 4 minutes fire 's unfortunately , dispatch vehicles outside waco city limits required approval deputy chief , available \( literally lunch \? \) 911 operator desperately called around local community volunteer fire departments get something time trucks arrived 27 minutes later , whole complex aflame clearly little , late two water supply fbi made another call requesting tank truck , waco department apparently depended one though clearly unwilling risk firemen 's lives line fire , seems might done sufficient equipment water make difference even aired tape woman called waco 911 georgia asking anything done civic minded , probably irresponsible everyone watching television , local calls could get abc also aired comments independent fire investigator viewed tapes one side compound \( standard pool shot \) , agreed fire \) must started least 3 places , b \) must spread fast neither conclusive proof koresh crowd offed fbi offed , 's heck lot stronger proof theories floating around net score 2 fbi , 0 branch davidians 89 branch davidians \? koresh cult standoff may victims recquiescat pace \( net moment silence \) daniel hartung dhartung chinet chinet com ask rotaract
dhartung chinet chi il us \( dan hartung \) subject medical examiner says evidence bullet wounds either way organization chinet public access unix lines 14 apparently needing clarify comments thursday , dr nizam \( spelling \? \) , medical examiner tarrant county , texas , authority waco deaths , stated since autopsies performed , evidence bullet wounds , evidence bullet wounds janet reno also stated never told bullet wounds anyone justice department koresh cult standoff may victims recquiescat pace \( net moment silence \) daniel hartung dhartung chinet chinet com ask rotaract
dhartung chinet chi il us \( dan hartung \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization chinet public access unix lines 20 arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \( ken arromdee \) writes gt5311b prism gatech edu \( bhattacharya , abhijit \) writes doubt koresh let batf look inside place intended , orchestrated character assassination , noise torture , holocaust would never come pass know knock search grenades \? , koresh closed door agent search warrant , door rain bullets inside shot first koresh cult standoff may victims recquiescat pace \( net moment silence \) daniel hartung dhartung chinet chinet com ask rotaract
rtsg mot com \( steve p \) subject atf burns dividian ranch update nntp posting host blue organization motorola inc , cellular infrastructure group distribution usa lines 24 irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \( brent irvine \) writes article c5uhuo awq usenet ucs indiana edu wwarf silver ucs indiana edu \( wayne j warf \) writes article nate 1485 735408842 psygate psych indiana edu nate psygate psych indiana edu \( nathan engle \) writes yeah , information trickles funny works funny , yeah , funny n't wait fbi spokesdroid latest reversal facts proclaiming bd 's burned death wo n't believe anything government says , press reliable according logic , base statements \? wild speculation laced healthy dose paranoia \? matter dis belief matter constantly \( radically \) changing stories believe steve b personal opinions \? , brent irvine yes think irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \?
hagerp cs indiana edu \( paul hager \) subject batf fbi murders almost everyone waco today ! 4 19 organization computer science , indiana university lines 27 kevin axon usa \( kevin vanhorn \) writes article c5rpoj ijv news udel edu roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) writes two nine escaped compound said fire deliberately set cult members correction fbi says two nine escaped said fire deliberately set cult members since press kept miles away , absolutely independent verification government 's claims matter indeed larry king two attorneys \( whose clients dead \) koresh another davidian show last night discussions survivors differ fbi account attorneys say told tanks knocked lanterns compound started fires government lied contradicted throughout whole affair 'll wait better evidence form opinion paul hager hagerp moose cs indiana edu would give devil benefit law safety 's sake man seasons robert bolt
odysseus \( aaron walker \) subject batf fbi murders almost everyone waco today ! 4 19 nntp posting host odysseus organization mae lines 32 article news udel edu roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) writes another survivor claims heard someone shouting fire 's started ! odd terminology 's one says know fire planned , one occurs accident 's also say 're waiting end come fiery apocalypse thought personally , fire set \( either side \) , wonder timing koresh co set fires , wait six hours wall bashing tear gassing starting anything new happened around point \? similarly , fbi going torch place \( fake , course \) , wait long , would n't reasonable believe bd 's would set fire early assault began \? plausible \( \) explaination accidental starting fire tanks among things , say listening radio fire started reporter \( watching distance , course \) said looked like least one tanks penetrated farther building previously specifically , said one tank apparently halfway \( half tank 's \) building previously feet judgement , aaron
tzs stein2 u washington edu \( tim smith \) subject fbi director 's statement waco standoff organization university washington school law , class '95 lines 13 nntp posting host stein2 u washington edu cescript mtu edu \( charles scripter \) writes oh \? press \? batf fbi going shoot people leaving burning building , n't think would get rid press first \? oh , mean something like moving press back single location , 2 miles away compound \? press allowing n't count getting rid press getting rid press would mean getting far enough away would n't able see going tim smith
jfc athena mit edu \( john f carr \) subject waco burning organization massachusetts institute technology lines 23 nntp posting host achates mit edu article dscomsa desy de hallam zeus02 desy de writes perhaps consider hitler responsible holocaust since allies could done stop \? attention please ! according rules usenet flame wars , discussion degenerates point hitler mentioned , flame war may declared ended would like take opportunity clearly discussion useful current set facts , current name calling hitler 's name productive even standards usenet talk groups must continue , please n't discuss misc legal 's law would like discuss law applies waco incident , please ask questions form fbi started fire accidentally , would legally responsible deaths note followups set include misc legal john carr \( jfc athena mit edu \)
feustel netcom com \( david feustel \) subject tank found \? organization dafco os 2 software support consulting lines 15 much dispute origin fire destroyed bd compound could settled examining propane tank supposedly crushed one army tanks breached walls compound propane tank flattened tread marks , bd 's version cause fire would seem verified dave feustel n9myi feustel netcom com u government become garrotte around necks citizens garrotte , people struggle breathe air freedom , government tightens stranglehold possible outcomes point death government elimination personal freedom
feustel netcom com \( david feustel \) subject evil tax dollars work , atf burns ranch etc etc organization dafco os 2 software support consulting lines 18 cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) writes article 1993apr23 cv hp com , kam cv hp com \( keith marchington \) writes 's another sad thing 'd expect sort shit batf i'm goddamn disappointed fbi used professionals apparently unfamiliar history fbi might try looking articles 70 's fbi 's cointelpro operation starters dave feustel n9myi feustel netcom com u government become garrotte around necks citizens garrotte , people struggle breathe air freedom , government tightens stranglehold possible outcomes point death government elimination personal freedom
feustel netcom com \( david feustel \) subject waco questions distribution usa organization dafco os 2 software support consulting lines 10 16 condition propane tank mentioned bd survivors \? e crushed tread marks \? dave feustel n9myi feustel netcom com u government become garrotte around necks citizens garrotte , people struggle breathe air freedom , government tightens stranglehold possible outcomes point death government elimination personal freedom
jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) subject dividians black \? organization hand held products , inc lines 32 nntp posting host dale handheld com article hac news udel edu roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) writes article 1993apr9 medtronic com medtronic com \( robert \) writes kenneth whitehead \( kdw icd ab com \) wrote cbnewsh cb att com \( brian leary \) writes questions media politically correct people compound black guys ninja suits davidians black next question \? still thinking answers , eh \? jim jmd handheld com i'm always rethinking 's never day n't rethought ca n't bill clinton 6 april 93 american , englishman , foreign troop landed country , never would lay arms , never never never ! william pitt , earl chatham 1708 1778 18 nov 1777
ez012344 hamlet ucdavis edu \( dan herrin \) subject evil tax dollars work , atf burns ranch etc etc organization computing services , uc davis lines 3 lord , hope n't hoover pro ! monstrous dan
dale access digex com \( dale farmer \) subject raid justification blast next time organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 34 nntp posting host access digex net x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 rick bressler \( bressler iftccu ca boeing com \) wrote forgot leave quote source happened waco fault batf would proper equipment personal could captured compound initial assault none would happened batf part dept treasury , justice needed assault place could like irs call federal marshalls service , collection teams similar type assaults time , good , tactical legal parts suspect marshalls would touched , search warrant \( still sealed believe \) bogus besides batf also could swat teams federal marshalls service fbi secret service national park service texas rangers nearby large city police forces military use guys , nobody elses swat team good enough holy cause gun control also find timing raid extremely interesting initial raid two days nj senate going overturn assault weapon confiscation law couple weeks batf 's budget going come congress review shortly reno got confirmed ag \( n't need remind anti gun line \) right around presidents day office wise man said , twice coincidence , three times enemy action n't believe four things \? food thought dale farmer
turmoil halcyon com \( tim crowley \) subject fbi director 's statement waco standoff organization northwest nexus inc lines 26 nntp posting host nwfocus wa com paull hplabsz hpl hp com \( robert paull \) writes mr nice guy \( rcanders nyx cs du edu \) wrote branch davidians violent planning start violence bd compound assaulted atf bd fire back agreed cease fire allowed atf care wounded bd even released atf agents captured clear release agents allowing atf medical attention bd looking trouble first 've heard bd capturing releasing atf agents info \? rob p filmed day first assault bds clearly allowed batf agents shot wounded leave compound lesson , suppose keep shooting untill pigs dead get fuck dodge never give pig even break ya turmoil halcyon com fuck police ! ! ! !
bd fluent dartmouth edu \( brice \) subject atf burns dividian ranch update reply wwarf silver ucs indiana edu 's message fri , 23 apr 1993 18 01 48 gmt reply bd fluent dartmouth edu organization fluent inc , lebanon nh distribution usa lines 24 wwarf silver ucs indiana edu \( wayne j warf \) writes post press said , wished said medical examiner refuted fbi facts n't believe someone lot reason impartial say interest accuracy \( seems late start , know \) medical examiner contradicted fbi fbi said found folks shot head , medical examiner said seen evidence time medical examiner said , dealing charred bodies compound sounds like typical medical examiner releasing details thorough investigation medical examiner saying n't seen something thing saying n't might end true fbi spoken falsely , n't clear yet
cpqhou se hou compaq com \( g thomas rush \) subject waco fire organization compaq computer corp lines 40 article 1993apr23 8500 mnemosyne cs du edu rcanders nyx cs du edu \( mr nice guy \) writes flash frequent occurrence fires fire start small one location heat air temperature room builds everything room catches fire may occurred bd compound , heard reports windows covered would permit fire start unnoticed outside compound fire got big enough , broke walls , appeared started two places really one big fire houston chronicle last thursday \( maybe wednesday \) said interior walls covered hay bales help protect bullets many know fast dry hay burns large quantities tear gas inserted building possible many women children room free tear gas would try seal door keep tear gas learned fire broken late escape trapped flames safe room addition , gas specifically designed force eyes closed victim vomit fast could leave burning office home eyes closed violently \? find hard believe fbi recording final assault think would wanted tapes show agents fbi overcoming forces evil , aka branch davidians tapes would also allow fbi prove using excessive force thomas rush compaq computer corporation cpqhou compaq com employee , opinions candidate \( , texas \) school board seat 5 , may 1 , 1993
positron quip eecs umich edu \( jonathan haas \) subject quotes requested organization university michigan eecs dept , ann arbor lines 11 need quotes jefferson , hamilton , madison , founders , support idea second amendment written constitution populace could protect government began degenerate \( sources \) , please mail thanks jonathan haas jake liked women way liked university michigan kiwi fruit sweet yet , firm positron eecs umich edu yet yielding touch , finger pgp 2 2 key covered short brown fuzzy hair
veal utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) subject batf initiating violence sources \? lines 20 organization university tennessee division continuing education article rose hp com k hprnd rose hp com \( steve kao \) writes 've long since lost newspaper magazine article mentions batf said tossed grenade instead knocked door serve search warrant bd compound anyone references \? i'm looking periodicals newspapers dates copy article needed , would n't mind seeing posting e mail fine associated press article monday march 1 , believe , quoted witnesses describing batf agents throwing grenades prior gunfire part davidians among first crop different , mutually exclusive descriptions david veal univ tenn div cont education info services group pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu still remember way laughed , day pushed elevator shaft i'm beginning think n't love anymore weird al
sedona intel com \( christopher w knox \) subject dayton gun buy back \( boston gun buy back \) organization intel corporation lines 7 distribution world nntp posting host intel com originator sedona anyone considered prosecute city holding questions asked buy back receiving stolen property \? intel , corp 5000 w chandler blvd chandler , az
popovich cs columbia edu \( steve popovich \) subject change name \? \? reply thomas parsli 's message wed , 21 apr 1993 09 08 59 gmt organization columbia university popovich prince cs columbia edu cmm 0 90 2 thomasp surt ifi uio lines 14 know quisling , right \? obviously n't vidkun quisling known norway , betrayed country \( norway \) implied som jumped conclusions sound little paranoid think lot norway perhaps n't sufficiently clear accusing quisling u government , throwing away people 's right keep bear arms least , 's ones intended refer figured people newsgroup would interpret intended , obviously something intent got lost steve
gardner convex com \( steve gardner \) subject batf fbi right thing waco nntp posting host imagine convex com organization engineering , convex computer corp , richardson , tx , usa x disclaimer message written user convex computer corp opinions expressed user necessarily convex lines 21 article 1993apr21 gnv ifas ufl edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes batf fbi become latter day gestapo , become way desired get vote laws , lawmakers keep hearing people say assumes , point , choice ballot box vote yes want fbi batf become latter day n't process far complex direct control bureaucracy evaluate representatives n't often know contribution direction federal law enforcement assert got wanted absurd waco encapsulation american experience religious fanaticism , thinking overwhelming violence n't blame 'them' , fbi batf acting within parameters set years made 'them' 'them' oh , good feel much better \) way plan getting us mess \?
mst4298 zeus tamu edu \( mitchell todd \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization grinchco lines 42 distribution world nntp posting host zeus tamu edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article 1993apr23 synapse bms com , hambidge bms com writes mst4298 rigel tamu edu \( mitchell todd \) writes large propane tank , breached , n't think would identifiable explosion \? saw videotape , explosion looked like one due propane rather \( official version \) ammunition would agree propane explosion likely ammunition explosives blast question directed person claimed propane tank likely ruptured tank , , fire started true , n't explosion happened soon fires started \? evidence exists right \( least know \) various claims counter claims i'm waiting hard evidence released \? could certain hard evidence released fbi made fuss videotapes evidence release something sooner later 's going happen , 'll get see often law enforcement agencies evidence public view investigation mitchell todd mst4298 zeus ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' tamu edu ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' '
subject new hampshire maine non resident carry permit application kim39 scws8 harvard edu \( john kim \) distribution na organization harvard university science center nntp posting host scws8 harvard edu lines 9 live near plan vacation new hampshire maine , posting basic info apply \( ccw \) states non residents post rec guns j case kim kim39 husc harvard edu
arc cco caltech edu \( aaron ray clements \) subject ap rifles \? organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 10 nntp posting host sandman caltech edu keywords waco , branch davidians read clari article , among weapons bd , two barrett 50 caliber armor piercing rifles hell use armor piercing rifle \? run tank try stab \? , ignorance amongst media aaron arc cco caltech edu
tip lead tmc edu \( tom \) subject slick tries ways , organization university arizona unix users group lines 19 today rush criticizing clinton claiming responsibility actions decisions janet reno fbi early enough suit rush 2 months ago rush fact reagan stumped special walsh n't remember asked ollie north rush 's criticism clinton applied reagan north reagan would north convicted \( overturned \) gosh , rush sure wants ways clinton must held responsible , reagan clever using amnesia defense maybe 's clinton say campaign promises well , go rush tell truth , n't loop n't remember
subject waco headlines editorial boston globe kim39 scws8 harvard edu \( john kim \) distribution world organization harvard university science center nntp posting host scws8 harvard edu lines 90 boston globe , wednesday april 21 1993 col 4 bodies found ruins fbi defends raid cult ranch col 5 clinton blames koresh , orders probe siege col 2 children horrifying game pg 18 , col 1 , editorial page judgment waco scientific political scrutiny horror show waco begins , though nothing undo tragedy might prevented forensic experts study rubble ashes branch davidian compound , least 85 people , including 24 children , perished smoke fire caused visions manipulative madman stunning lapse judgment federal law enforcement officials emphasis added investigators create conditions compound identify fac inferno strong suit public must question agents federal bureau investigation lacked skill teh behavioral insight resolve 51 day standoff free flames fury loss life clearly reflects tia cult leader david koresh , whose personal public conscious ness assembly davidians arms used little way rationality could expected koresh , self sinner without equal continues th federal agents , bungled case start began feb 28 100 agents federal bureau alcohol , firearms compound , intent seizing koresh cache automatic ons four agents estimated six cult mem died ensuing gun battle earlier isolate arrest koresh outside complex adequately explored authorities prepared siege resolved deaths would last fifty one days siege public outcry storm compound correctly perceived inside apocalypse essentially hostages lives stake , reason government impatient government 's superior firepower , control water utilities freedom movement created conditions belated resolution neither attorney general janet reno fbi provided compelling reason course patience intelligence accurate koresh growing increasingly violent bizarre , cult see tear gas attack launched 60 combat vehicle would clear mind ports escalating child abuse accurate , would weighted potential eve etc etc tec paragraphs , 2 5 paragraphs deleted responsibility rests clinton , inexperienced president pay enough attention life death decisions made waco reno faulted anything , ti would judgment law en officers common problem among prosecutors full investigations th tragedy must conducted executive legislative branches first step verify blaze started though blame play role , greater find strategies fire next time end editorial j case kim kim39 husc harvard edu
dhartung chinet chi il us \( dan hartung \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization chinet public access unix lines 33 pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) writes fbi started fire , didn`t people flee burning building \? assuming fire caused lanterns stoves knocked tanks pushing walls \( would shake building pretty good \) perhaps n't flee fleeing would meant entering fire side \? like surrounded fire , rubble , finally \( combined teargas , combustion gasses \) overcame \? words trapped flames , heat , fumes rubble \? wait minute story pushed fire started one place consistent story trapped fire \( particularly building sudden many exits \) choose one , please sound plausable \? dramatic korash forcing stay , shooting \( shot victims found yet \) , plausable well , everyone besides koresh blood children , assume independent choice ah , chose stay face assault clearly endangered lives , alternatively , permitted leave choose one koresh cult standoff may victims recquiescat pace \( net moment silence \) daniel hartung dhartung chinet chinet com ask rotaract
dhartung chinet chi il us \( dan hartung \) subject waco inside story \( ap \) \( atf burns \) organization chinet public access unix lines 62 ssd kodak com \( frank brown 726 \) writes ap story fri morning walls came tear gas filled air , cult leader david koresh sprang action left third floor bedroom began looking around house , making sure women children secure checking everyone gas masks properly within hours , compound became inferno nine branch davidians story , gleaned lawyers spoke six jailed charges include conspiracy murder day six said portable radio offered contact outside world since koresh 's right hand man , steve schneider , ripped compounds 's phone line fbi agents called dawn monday saying cults last chance come prepare get forced aw , gee , whose fault \? kept word dawn , tanks mount carmel compound , punching hours holes tear gas enter bd meanwhile proceeded daily routines strapped gas masks , women laundry others read bibles rooms 17 children , 10 , remained sides still , hard ignore happening around time tank rammed poorly constructed building shook violently cult members falling doors dear , dear could come hundreds gas canisters hurled armored vehicles filling air noxious fumes flying canisters frightening tanks least one man hit face dear , dear could come gas began filling air , driven heavy gusts wind coming windows holes tanks made could n't gotten heavy wind blowing scattered throughout house , cult members made efforts gather fbi sent biggest weapon massive armored vehicle headed chamber , lined cinder blocks , authorities hoped find koresh schneider fire tear gas directly cult story government 's version fbi says cult members set fires three places six cult members , separate discussions lawyers , consistently gave versions odds fbi 's account say tank flattened barrel propane , spilling contents tank house , tipped lit lanterns , spitting flames ignited propane home used lumber , plywood , tacked together tar paper vulnerable building erupted nine bd 's escaped jumping windows others died groping sad , could come koresh cult standoff may victims recquiescat pace \( net moment silence \) daniel hartung dhartung chinet chinet com ask rotaract
dhartung chinet chi il us \( dan hartung \) subject take waco quiz ! impress friends ! win valuable cash prizes ! summary would \? organization chinet public access unix lines 44 waco quiz would following hypothetical situations \? committed crime batf conducts knock raid \) hands air say warrant \? think hefty suit settlement b \) say 1 second identify cop shoot c \) shoot heck , least federal prison might get sex killed federal agents blast strange music \) come hands wish turn state 's evidence hope deal 's good b \) wait , figuring federal agents get bored go vacation c \) wait come chance kill g men fbi surrounded , asks come immediately \) come , figuring long prison term chance catch writing b \) stall ca n't concentrate 're trial reason c \) decide write novel length prophecy ideas fresh mind fbi calls says use tear gas n't come \) come hands radical bro law hated getting gassed uc b \) get gas mask really , feds give eventually c \) shoot vehicles delivering tear gas 's rude break man 's door ! fbi calls says use tanks break walls \) come hands flimsy cardboard construction wo n't last long b \) presence mind , move flammable devices away tinder dry c \) spread kerosene around hit match big schwarzenegger ending points awarded following manner 0 points every \( \) answer , 1 points every \( b \) answer , 2 points every \( c \) answer count 'em compare friends ! answered \( \) time , probably jail , alive answered \( b \) time , may still holed compound answered \( c \) time , probably dead \( feel free copy distribute friends \) koresh cult standoff may victims recquiescat pace \( net moment silence \) daniel hartung dhartung chinet chinet com ask rotaract
dhartung chinet chi il us \( dan hartung \) subject truth waco organization chinet public access unix distribution usa lines 183 jgd dixie com \( john de armond \) writes nothing could point would gone long way toward convincing would media video , particularly diverse sources imho , government n't anything hide , would allowed cameras near compound beginning agree , saw reason could close pool cameras manned volunteers protected whatever points made dick , koresh 's lawyer tanks pumping cs gas ejecting exploding canisters tank booms penetrated multiple walls exploding okay , word fbi 's point see ya court ! tanks collapsing interior walls ceilings putting people great risk dear , dear could come construction used almost used materials dry hay stacked walls shields government 's bullets okay , living fire hazard built said previous invasion military drills supplies hand survival crime , irrelevant either way gas masks worked well many members bible study sleeping fire set ah yes , exactly would hold bible study take nap always wise course action 're gassed group instruction kind koresh aids tank invasion \( referring kind suicide pact counter assault efforts \) n't believe suicide pact believe koresh wanted fiery conflagration may told followers fact , hypothesis confirmed stories everyone moved center compound order escape falling debris tank invasion fire set yes , 's right whole compound demolished , expect go \? women children sought shelter second floor tanks trapped doors jammed tanks ramming building distorting frames building rammed going upstairs \? 's almost bad running fire ran length buildings acted fire trapped almost everyone place experts told chimney effect made fire appear started several places hm , interesting notion 'll see koresh seen last hour fire assumed 4th floor room children bible study , doubt hey , 's priority texas medical examiner stated flatly none bodies recovered far bullet wounds , directly contradicting fbi 's lies actually , friday stated evidence either way could flatly contradict federal claims 'll know later event , 's irrelevant survivors unanimously stated victims could gotten would , trapped tank destroyed building speed fire six hours trapped \? building destroyed immediately could left time underground bunker cited fbi place koresh could put children cold blooded killer blocked tanks crashing debris top access door six hours move away come dick said sat koresh 's bedroom talking observed room furnished like rest without air condition luxuries , directly contradicting fbi 's claim lived irrelevant , anyway pr one way , crime innocence indicated dick saw bullet holes koresh 's room made outside indicates batf indiscriminately shooting roof word whether fired back , operative question fire probably started tanks knocking coleman lanterns lit sitting piano next wall tanks busted , though none survivors saw fire start right six hours know tank could come thru wall point , leave coleman lantern burning near bales hay every one survivors strongly denies ever saying anything fbi starting fire , hearing someone say fire lit stuff attributed fbi 's ultimately irrelevant lit fire ample opportunity leave said first met koresh compound expected find raving lunatic instead found rational , charming intelligent young man surprised fact charismatic leaders extremely intelligent , actually tend excellent actors skilled manipulators \( ex ted bundy \) koresh drugs stronger aspirin use pain medical assistance phone call away gee , come women children bedrooms kids appointed nicely koresh 's relevant crimes dick said saw signs home schooling kids time ever see signs abuse anyway , outsiders rarely see abuse 's secretive thing go court documents case mistrial california one ever held wills could left time people murdered fire choices exactly choice called independent prosecutor ever need one , looks like several investigations , starting congressional committee hearings next week closing comments n't look upon cult view highly religious people sincerely believe believe judge wrong \? last sentence says hell \( government \) judge religion wrong event , hope , recorded history american holocaust people murdered us government surely jews nazis hang head shame 've allowed government become never judged religion , actions lived quiet , religious life claimed , would raid , siege , deaths instead , chose courses action every turn least stupid , irrational first stockpile weapons second shoot federal agents third stay inside n't blame cop shoots kid pointed toy weapon , n't think fbi deserves blame case koresh cult standoff may victims recquiescat pace \( net moment silence \) daniel hartung dhartung chinet chinet com ask rotaract
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption organization stratus computer , inc lines 27 distribution na nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article n3n netcom com , strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes though agree place discuss guns , note passing number gun apologists seem ignored words well regulated distorted interpretations second amendment though david sternlight pushes envelope credibility claiming talk politics guns place discuss guns , meaning second amendment , seems would rather post millions people relative ignorance subject follow currently active threads discussing exactly topic least explore fallacies erroneous claim , explode basic fact 1 , mr sternlight right described right people keep bear arms right people form militia , right militia keep bear arms , right well regulated people keep bear arms apparent simple reading sentence arguments , suggest check thread , gun control , playing alt politics usa constitution near cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
cescript mtu edu \( charles scripter \) subject dayton gun buy back \( boston gun buy back \) nntp posting host fsh mtu edu organization michigan tech x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 25 wed , 21 apr 1993 16 01 03 gmt , larry cipriani \( lvc cbnews cb att com \) wrote according wnci 97 9 fm radio morning , dayton , ohio operating gun buy back giving 50 every functional gun turned ran money one day , passing 50 vouchers sort looking funds keep operating another media event brought hci something similar pro gun people \? example , pay 100 anyone lawfully protects life firearm \? sounds bit tacky , hey , whatever works gun buy back charity \? get sponsors fund purchase used firearms , check , give sell low price poor persons wishing firearms \) ok , guys work details needy , etc charles scripter cescript phy mtu edu dept physics , michigan tech , houghton , mi 49931 government little great things , shall drawn washington centre power , render powerless checks provided one government another become venal oppressive government separated thomas jefferson , 1821
undergrad math uwaterloo ca \( greg \) subject 's next \? mormons jews \? organization university waterloo lines 17 article world std com rjk world std com \( robert j kolker \) writes take oath fortress lo matzadah matzadah fall ! zealots holy fuck israel armenia turkey greece croatia serbia bosnia russia germany iran arab world war please allow introduce sympathy i'm man wealth taste devil 've around long , long years stolen many man 's soul , faith remixes
gt6511a prism gatech edu \( cochrane , james shapleigh \) subject truth waco distribution usa organization georgia institute technology lines 41 ok quick scenario 're home , bothering anybody next thing know , somebody comes crashing upstairs window hear explosion see individual , similarly armed individuals rushing front door \) defend family attack b \) realize oh , batf would enter like , better surrender c \) roll let whoever attacking home would like \? chosen \) , discover people defended federal agents , camped outside door waiting surrender learned intend charge murder , name , claiming safely surrender time start using psychological warfare techniques , still claiming safely give receive fair trial weeks standoff , still holding , begin new ploy induce surrender , namely using tear gas annoy , ramming home tanks yet claim safely surrender time patiently wait latest round attacks , house catches fire bales hay using cover spread fire rapidly house , try escape raised defense rubble created tanks 9 followers make claiming scenario accurate disagreeing notion fault dying refused surrender agents federal government another federal agency committed armed assault home basis search warrant look texas rangers view batf look fbi statements regarding batf actions apparent sources , fbi trying clean mess made batf , resulting accidental fire killed bd 's still compound , playing batf committed illegal assault , obtained use texas ng resources fabricated allegations , abuses accusing bd 's crimes outside jurisdiction held assault james cochrane danger , doubt , run space gt6511a prism gatech edu circles , scream shout rent
howard metaphor com \( lee howard \) subject gun like american express card reply howard metaphor com \( lee howard \) organization m4 lines 25 article undergrad math uwaterloo ca , papresco undergrad math uwaterloo ca \( paul prescod \) writes article 1993apr8 anasazi com john anasazi com \( john r moore \) writes driving heavily used street middle day , car 5 young black males pulled behind , one occupants fired 8 9mm rounds rear truck man pulled pistols returned fire , driving attackers child suffered flesh wound arm , parents sustained incident beautiful country people built enjoy yes , beautiful country enjoy , enjoy thought means exercise rights defend mine want thank good folks , like prescod , remind along line , watched documentary one nazi concentration camps stacks stacks bodies scenes hitler , struck , reverence faces people crowds guess happy hitler implemented full gun control taking care jewish problem time lee
garrod dynamo ecn purdue edu \( david garrod \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 44 article chinet chi il us , dhartung chinet chi il us \( dan hartung \) writes pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) writes fbi started fire , didn`t people flee burning building \? assuming fire caused lanterns stoves knocked tanks pushing walls \( would shake building pretty good \) perhaps n't flee fleeing would meant entering fire side \? like surrounded fire , rubble , finally \( combined teargas , combustion gasses \) overcame \? words trapped flames , heat , fumes rubble \? wait minute story pushed fire started one place consistent story trapped fire \( particularly building sudden many exits \) choose one , please fbi thought tear gas would force davidians least mothers children , \( fbi \) bother think effect tear gas young children fbi knew killed several children using tear gas \( assume fbi knew via listening devices \) fbi saw fire accidently break one end building , e g upset oil lamp fbi thought could finally force rest davidians also destroy evidence \( fbi \) killed children starting fire end fbi miscalculated many rest davidians made \? \? \? \? \? answer happened
diederic spot colorado edu \( andrew diederich \) subject truth waco nntp posting host spot colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder distribution usa lines 30 article \( dan hartung \) writes endless remarks davidians could surrendered deleted lived quiet , religious life claimed , would raid , siege , deaths instead , chose courses action every turn least stupid , irrational first stockpile weapons second shoot federal agents third stay inside quiet would deaths \? \? thought thier neighbors said davidians never bothered oh , well , could n't point , n't stockpiling weapons , atf would n't felt threatened move 's newsflash n't illegal one firearm n't even illegal lots firearms shot \? feds shot , staying inside thing \? 's another newsflash sometimes government nasty things n't deserve since nice davidians first time round , see davidians n't surrender easily , especially expecting end world andrew diederich diederic spot colorado edu opinions mine wave watch eyes
jon atlas mitre org \( j e shum \) subject waco clinton press conference , part 1 originator jon atlas nntp posting host atlas mitre org organization mitre corp mclean va lines 42 article blake 70 nevada edu , blake nevada edu \( rawlin blake \) writes article 1993apr21 ringer cs utsa edu whughes lonestar utsa edu \( william w hughes \) writes article feustelc5tw49 7p5 netcom com feustel netcom com \( david feustel \) writes predict outcome study went wrong federal assault waco result future assaults type conducted full scale military operations explicit shoot kill directives mean n't already \? could fooled remember waco ! government decide murder next \? maybe \? opinions mine n't care blame university state well , seems n't learn lessons history \? hoping kent state taught us lesson apparently apparently government murder anyone choose still hmm recent lesson little square china \? another lesson might one repeated every year tibet course 's always el beat goes \( messages god get ass ! trust government ! time ! reason ! screaming man connect god damned dots ! ! ! ministry , tv song clinton administration e mail addresses campaign92 org \( mcimail \) provided public service 75300 3115 compuserve com \( compuserve \) jon edward shum \( jon mitre org \) clintonpz aol com \( america online \)
feustel netcom com \( david feustel \) subject raid justification blast next time organization dafco os 2 software support consulting lines 22 dale access digex com \( dale farmer \) writes rick bressler \( bressler iftccu ca boeing com \) wrote forgot leave quote source happened waco fault batf would proper equipment personal could captured compound initial assault none would happened batf part dept treasury , justice needed assault place could like irs call federal marshalls service , irs n't need rely federal marshall 's services irs swat teams saw picture one article irs magazine dave feustel n9myi feustel netcom com u government become garrotte around necks citizens garrotte , people struggle breathe air freedom , government tightens stranglehold possible outcomes point death government elimination personal freedom
an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) subject bd 's 're paranoid freaks organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 64 reply an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu previous article , \( \) says freed om religion absolutely nothing building small arsenal grooming 10 year old children wife 'll come soon finish manuscript seven seals oh , ok , david interesting janet reno publically announced need steal wonder get gasoline concession agree koresh much victim perpetrator grew inside cult , engaged power struggle supporters helped inflate ego yup kill bastard ! move fuck helicoptor thermal imaging compound ah , yes illegal helicopter , non existent pcp lab remember well , even media \( y'all \) tell n't call winston afternoon detected three fires erupting almost simultaneously cs canisters specially modified abrams ahhh , yes non existent canisters call winston stuff chance starting fire kerosene lamps \? maybe one , three fires way koresh n't talking ass expected happen , different reasons fbi habit burning people fortified areas maybe wanted look like murder 50 days think coming whole time n't even put children buried bus underground bunker cs seige put tower die fuck big brother paranoid freaks good thing come one less group attract members society yup good dead yeah ! maybe janet , like 's promis , er , warned us like told y'all would seriously consider following get passport order consider overseas options savings
an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) subject waco inside story \( ap \) \( atf burns \) organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 24 reply an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu previous article , dhartung chinet chi il us \( dan hartung \) says dear , dear could come could defenders alamo 're clearly missing point typically , might add , doubt would come batf show , start shooting , etc paint child molesting murdering fanatic , call tanks , hundreds automatic armed goons restrict press access two miles away come watch pictures burned women children bosnia cnn , limited two mile away replay fire waco \? huh \? answer
pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) subject hallam baker \( welcome police state usa \) organization university tennessee , knoxville x newsreader nnr vm 1 3 2 lines 96 article dscomsa desy de hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) writes article 1993apr22 cs okstate edu , kennejs cs okstate edu \( kennedy james scot \) writes article dscomsa desy de , hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) hell base ludicrous claim \? plenty fine , decent people people read post p g people paranoid people like hey dude making paranoid ! argument ! ! ! would n't terribly impressed anybody got paranoid based either usenet general phill hallam baker 's comments general , 'd surprised people , accuse something long enough loud enough , enough people , start ask 're bothering fight nothing considered right , bother right \? 's pretty basic human nature 'd spot tea \) probably gave arguing case arms control directly long ago posters know talking \( e g , frank crary \) disproved arguments gun control needed , gave know right could n't refute answers , frank crary 's arguments based assumption people sane , normal people tpg disproves gun owners amazing thing n't realize hundred million gun owners posted tpg even posts talk politics guns illustrated say illustrate , would still reflect written \( often different face face \) , small select group anybody seriously attitudes positions usenet general population country either n't care accuracy needs realities explained usenet whole disproves humanity whole speaking readership posts 've seen put read newsgroups 160 , 000 readers , number feeling fairly inflated posters , rare regular , themseleves tiny minority group whole usenet readers distorted sample humanity anything , real thing get relative sample usenet readers 've got much equipment much time available us proof positive guns n't make safer buy lot guns either get shot knock raid get fbi burn house proof guns n't make safer buy one government show kill \? tell , government took away voting rights everybody exercised free speech , would proof free speech political activity \? equating two things n't see even paranoid mindset tpg good reasons support gun control phill , really believe various posts computer nets represents either poster 's person personalities general public 's general opinions , serious reservations grasp reality n't expect really believe 's simply convenient way make point , hopefully make people n't like look bad 'n kisses phill nice day , phill david veal university tennessee division continuing education pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu still remember way laughed pushed elevator shaft sometimes get thinking n't love anymore weird al yankovic
johnt meaddata com \( john townsend \) subject clinton wants national id card , aka ussr style internal passport organization mead data central , dayton oh lines 26 distribution world nntp posting host jordan meaddata com article mimsy umd edu , tms cs umd edu \( tom swiss \( swift , , swiss ! \) \) writes johnston cyberia win net \( robert johnston \) writes 'bout embed everyones skull \? ca n't lose without already dead \( ergo , need treatment \) close , birth implant smart chip behind ear skin skull hypo high carbon content glass chip would reprogrammed age pertinent medical , correctional , data behave 'll input permenant record forgot part small shaped charge anyone tries tamper , explodes kills oh , shaped charge set remote control get line properly patriotic citizens nothing fear 's , shaped charge automatically detonate thirty years , la logan 's run , order maintain population control john townsend reduce , reuse engineering modeling mead data central reuse , ! uunet ! meaddata ! johnt pike recycle johnt meaddata com , oh software ! \( 513 \) 865
pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) subject waco clinton press conference , part 1 organization totally unorganized lines 35 article feustelc5tw49 7p5 netcom com feustel netcom com \( david feustel \) writes predict outcome study went wrong federal assault waco result future assaults type conducted full scale military operations explicit shoot kill directives done secret \) anybody notice treasury dept \( fbi batf , words \) clinton wants investigation \? words , investigating \? sure n't seem enthusiastic congress investigation , notice well , want \( probably insert \) anybody smell attempt whitewash \? justice dept investigation , say possible poor bad dave feustel n9myi feustel netcom com i'm beginning look forward reaching 100 allocation taxes pay interest national debt point federal government go business lack funds pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc 1 207 \( pat myrto \) seattle , wa else fails , try ! uunet ! pilchuck ! rwing ! pat wisdom two things infinite universe human stupidity , sure former albert einstien
v111qheg ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( p vasilion \) subject civil rights violations organization university buffalo lines 53 news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host ubvmsb cc buffalo edu i'm putting together list civil rights violations perpetrated davidians fbi batf 've got far care add provide backup info \? first amendment 1 \) fbi batf violated davidians right free exercise religion start de facto precident minority religion 2 \) fbi batf violated bd right free speach preventing speak media b preventing practicing beliefs 3 \) fbi batf violated freedom press keeping 2 miles davidians b preventing media cover fbi batf actions close c censoring media reports 4 \) fbi batf violated bd 's right assemble proven initial baseless assault second amendment 1 \) batf went many guns guns fbi batf n't approve 'nuff said fourth amendment 1 \) right bd 's secure persons , houses , papers , effects unreasonable searches seizures violated initial baseless assault fifth amendment 1 \) davidians held answer capital otherwise infamous crime without indictment grand jury 2 \) davidians deprived life , liberty , property without due process law sixth amendment 1 \) accused denied right speedy public trial impartial jury fbi became judge , jury executioner 2 \) bd 's never informed specific nature cause accusation eighth amendment 1 \) davidians suffered cruel unusual punishment fbi cut water ranch b fbi used psy war \( loudspeakers screams dying rabbits chants \) c fbi prevented family members contacting family inside ranch fbi used tear gas \( especially children \) e fbi burned ranch f escaped imprisoned without bail without hearing anything miss \? pv
f gautjw ccsvax sfasu edu subject bd 's 're paranoid freaks organization stephen f austin state university lines 29 article 1993apr23 oneb almanac bc ca , kmcvay oneb almanac bc ca \( ken mcvay \) writes deleted hear , hear ! 'd also like see autopsy reports confirm news reports multiple victims found shot \( head \) , positions inconsistent fire victims simply early draw conclusions either way nasty incident , tend believe government side least 're consistent i'm sure highly germans tended believe government 's version thirties forties different highly jewish cultists met fate always trust government old frog 's almanac salute old frog hisse'f , ryugen fisher \( 604 \) 245 3205 \( v32 \) \( 604 \) 245 4366 \( 2400x4 \) sco xenix 2 3 2 gt ladysmith , british columbia , canada serving central vancouver island public access usenet internet mail home holocaust almanac joe gaut super state , really f gautjw ccsvax sfasu edu matter actually happened remember alamo truth government chooses remember waco tell justice wants happen jim garrison , new orleans , la
f gautjw ccsvax sfasu edu subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! distribution world organization stephen f austin state university lines 20 article clem handheld com , jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) writes tend agree , would like better explanation fbi stopped gate saw realtime concerns fbi appeared interested stopping fire started , actually started flying around compound , add small part winds driving fire jim understand fire trucks site several weeks sent home three four days assault anyone confirm \? joe gaut super state , really f gautjw ccsvax sfasu edu matter actually happened remember alamo truth government chooses remember waco tell justice wants happen jim garrison , new orleans , la
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization stratus computer , inc lines 61 distribution world nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com keywords nata thing ! ! article 1993apr21 053035 29591 mcs kent edu , mhamilto nimitz mcs kent edu \( lawnmowerman \) writes oh , , guess shooting kind babies right sick bastard thanks reply post way , never , never ever said right shoot kind babies let 's go videotape 's exactly posted murder ! atf murderers ! butchers ! ! flame ! ! guy serious \? \? \? \? would ever really pay attention news \( oops forgot media part loves jump right top story facts known , well manipulate see thus believe \) ways one koresh 's devoted followers repeat survive genocidal mass slaughter innocent people besides nine survivors burn unit local hospital reported david one towers shit hit fan besides , majority children children supposed father , makes bastard children sacraligious \( sp \) also someone told david followers ca n't heat stay kitchen ! ! \( pun intended \) n't saying deaths bastard children zealot big thing \( know one read way \) , hell saying \? however branch davidian people insisted staying savior \( yeah right budy boy \) brain washed believing ever says truth , even means give lives cause therefore davids fault atf 's gave 50 51 days get , 50 days many many rest u brainwashed believing whatever government says truth \? koresh actual threat rest us \? n't ever stopped wonder government raided farm \? raid religion , sex , child abuse best available evidence moment , raid , psychological torture , group death koresh 's failure pay 200 tax one grenade launcher may may even ! 's batf raiding first place think 200 tax evasion justifies armed assault government 100 armed men trailers , orchestrated character assassination , noise torture , holocaust \? however sad hear death child unlike sick bastard supposedly think post cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject waco clinton press conference , part 1 organization stratus computer , inc lines 18 distribution world nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article 1993apr21 r node hub org , ndallen r node hub org \( nigel allen \) writes press release white house number one , limit long federal authorities could maintain limited resources quality intensity coverage experts lucky brought situation prompt resolution turn things amateurs might needed parts country god help us cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
fiddler concertina eng sun com \( steve hix \) subject 's next \? mormons jews \? organization sun lines 42 nntp posting host concertina article 1993apr21 news cs brandeis edu pip cc brandeis edu writes y'know , right bear arms invented , n't invented , supposed writers constitution universal , pre existing right worry shotgun pistol hmmm need spend time library , son bill rights written , addition \( \) shotgun pistol mention rifles ranging around 30 69 caliber cannon various different projectiles choose \( owned civilians \) breech loading rifles addition , semiautomatic full automatic firearms patented demonstrated several people various places preceding century , worry drive uzis entire neighborhood bullets sounds good actually happening , exaggeration effect following one incidents someone firing handful shots something may may uzi , semi full auto \? good , mean forever root conditions justified go away \( criminal behavior , either private government , defended \) , 's reason go away things important give away everybody else none left dieter car salesman
fiddler concertina eng sun com \( steve hix \) subject gun like american express card organization sun lines 48 nntp posting host concertina article cmm 0 90 2 thomasp surt ifi uio thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio writes n't remember figures exactly , 3500 deaths texas 1991 caused guns includes suicides since shown countries suicide rates pretty much independent means available oneself \( studies include done published japan , canada , austria , norway \) , suicides ought included count done , number vehicle related deaths greatly exceeds firearms related deaths texas suffer others certainly agree one , also live therefor 'll give 'freedom' \( note '' \) \? unless 's something directly hurts someone else , 's point \? \( otherwise , 'd better stop operating motor vehicles , since price operating greatly exceeds cost lives firearms one state \( n't remember , texas \? \? \) tried impose rule could buy one gun month think know happened well , 's done least twice south \( north \? \) carolina years back watched crime rate relative rest country rise quite bit virginia passed law word yet results , 'd willing ot bet reduction crime rates wo n't one respect right defend , right inflict people self defense n't inflict people \( except perhaps criminal 's tried damage , maybe indirectly future potential victims might become victims \) things important give away everybody else none left dieter car salesman
chuan stein u washington edu \( chuan infamous lee \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! article shelley organization university washington , seattle lines 16 nntp posting host stein u washington edu article rice edu fontenot ravl rice edu \( dwayne jacques fontenot \) writes bad nothing happen fbi media done job well want make comment live country long enough , realize media friend govt concerned fact media like jump conclusion facts sure good digging dirt well afterall , like controversial events , course make news chuan chuan infamous lee email chuan stein u washington edu u washington , seattle
f gautjw ccsvax sfasu edu subject waco aflame organization stephen f austin state university lines 10 abolish cults ! start f b
mccall mksol dseg ti com \( fred j mccall 575 3539 \) subject waco clinton press conference , part 1 organization texas instruments inc lines 18 1993apr21 ringer cs utsa edu whughes lonestar utsa edu \( william w hughes \) writes article feustelc5tw49 7p5 netcom com feustel netcom com \( david feustel \) writes predict outcome study went wrong federal assault waco result future assaults type conducted full scale military operations explicit shoot kill directives mean n't already \? could fooled apparently easy fool words , remark obviously someone would n't know difference insisting perfect safety people n't balls live real world mary shafer , nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com n't speak others n't speak
rcanders nyx cs du edu \( mr nice guy \) subject atf , enought x disclaimer nyx public access unix system run university denver denver community university neither control responsibility opinions users organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept lines 19 best reason abolishing atf n't enough organization disbanded duties assigned fbi \( firearms \) irs \( tobacco alcohol \) organizations enough fbi probably going try get criminal charge illegal machine gun broken gun postings stating law enforcement divided weak nothing dangerous liberties law enforcement agency without enough criminals chase atf one look trouble started waco rod anderson n0nzo think united states government boulder , co responsible fact bunch rcanders nyx cs du edu fanatics decided kill satellite n0nzo ao 16 slick willie compassionate
cescript mtu edu \( charles scripter \) subject fbi director 's statement waco standoff nntp posting host fsh mtu edu organization michigan tech x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 23 21 apr 93 05 06 08 gmt , tim smith \( tzs stein u washington edu \) wrote feustel netcom com \( david feustel \) writes evidence batf fbi would started shooting people started coming burning building oh \? press \? batf fbi going shoot people leaving burning building , n't think would get rid press first \? oh , mean something like moving press back single location , 2 miles away compound \? press allowing vietnam , 's dangerous allow near branch davidians \? 's something skewed logic charles scripter cescript phy mtu edu dept physics , michigan tech , houghton , mi 49931 government little great things , shall drawn washington centre power , render powerless checks provided one government another become venal oppressive government separated thomas jefferson , 1821
iat holonet net \( pete norton \) subject feds caught another lie organization holonet national internet access system 510 704 1058 modem lines 5 pete norton well sf ca us holonet net norton hou amoco com
altair edu subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization southeastern louisiana university lines 33 article 93112 153005mgb slacvm slac stanford edu , mgb slacvm slac stanford edu writes p according numerous accounts compound , fire started armoured vehicle crushing large propane tank , turning numerous gas lanterns medical examiners found bullet wounds , stated fbi , corpses find tremendously chilling many people seem willing accept governments story , despite much evidence contrary , mr clinton elected , people believe campaign promisses would respected got office people believe , little wonder believe given fact clinton reno fbi batf confederation cnn reported tonight bodies found bullet holes heads however , information possible causes say government stories taken face value case , jump conclusion stage may source embarrassment future let 's , may ploy smoke opposition \) comparison incidence square made soc culture china case need ammunition shoot \) matter side waco issue , ready die defending cause \? peace pete
spl pitstop ucsd edu \( steve lamont \) subject message mr president know happened \? organization university calif , san diego microscopy imaging resource lines 34 nntp posting host pitstop ucsd edu article acsu buffalo edu v111qheg ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( p vasilion \) writes well , still land free time individuals supposed able please unless upon rights someone else owning fully automatic machine guns also permitted law class iii federal firearms license paid transfer tax refering 50 cal feds claim bd , used 50 cal 3000 yard target shooting legitimate challenging sport i'm getting tired wimpy liberals whining gun control , ! ya know , second amendment says well regulated militia , necessary security free state , right people keep bear arms , shall infringed , notice , says arms guns arms zog wants think legitimate possessor nuclear weapons unconstitutional ! much right kilogram two nice weapons grade plutonium cruddy little pointy headed liberal los alamos support right keep bear short range nuclear weapons 's legitimate challenging sport screw limit spl steve lamont , sciviguy \( 619 \) 534 7968 spl szechuan ucsd edu san diego microscopy imaging resource uc san diego la jolla , ca 92093 0608 car car , bumper strip seen 805
loki acca nmsu edu \( entropic destroyer \) subject denver post yanks 'assault organization new mexico state university lines 33 nntp posting host nmsu edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 denver post \( supposed voice supposed rocky mountain empire \) ran following , classified heading friday , 23 april 1993 opinion new found wisdom , told person speak one mr walters , \( 303 \) 820 notice denver post longer knowingly accept advertise ment buy sell assault ons denver post finds use assault weapons poses threat health , safety , security readers let 'em know think dan revolution , assasination , , cobalt 60 , , cia , nsa , shc dod 202 loki acca nmsu edu liberty death taylordf ucsu colorado edu send something even ca n't read begin pgp public key block version 2 2 mqcnaitfksqaaaeeakceejwi9f5kmjykp0logc5dghrpbmy2xhoo8kpehmdyuf8a 1bfdqsj53kostz6hroshsdzlvul1 40vpjmmntfr vyz4jvd3rl4iuq2ummmex3m itf3ult8xn v qabsvhcfshvjvk4lf6wosucmo03m2tix31ai7vb0uzo4yxjaaux tcreyw5pzwwgribuyxlsb3igpexva2laywnjys5ubxn1lmvkdt4 s5ib end pgp public key block
mcgoy unicorn acs ttu edu \( david mcgaughey \) subject fbi director 's statement waco standoff organization texas tech university lines 9 seeing william sessions television , explaining great lengths fbi went determine suicidal david koresh , got feeling koresh manipulated fbi 's perceptions much way manipulated followers maybe manipulated news story david mcgaughey texas tech university
gt5311b prism gatech edu \( bhattacharya , abhijit \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization georgia institute technology lines 22 article 408 transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) writes think 200 tax evasion justifies armed assault government 100 armed men trailers , orchestrated character assassination , noise torture , holocaust \? doubt koresh let batf look inside place intended , orchestrated character assassination , noise torture , holocaust would never come pass bd 's killed members batf first day orchestrated character assassination noise torture seem like small retribution use tanks however abhijit bhattacharya , abhijit georgia institute technology , atlanta georgia , 30332 uucp ! decvax , hplabs , ncar , purdue , rutgers ! gatech ! prism ! gt5311b internet gt5311b prism gatech edu
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject change name \? \? organization stratus computer , inc lines 43 distribution world nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article cmm 0 90 2 thomasp surt ifi uio , thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio writes i'm trying censor newsgroup , i'm trying give hints newsgroups n't belong alt conspiracy \? \? drop three balls ramp , roll direction pour blood sea , sharks converge miles around throw one , 200 depart natural processes mimic outward results conspiracy actual conspiracy required put government embarrassing situation , quickly covers ass , , completely natural waco looks batf fbi ca n't handle situations like looks way , understand 's first time instigated raids like recent one also ended long standoff , n't quite public one , n't kill quite many people maybe screwup make think long hard raiding manner probably way went reminds bomb beeing dropped house la helicopter \( whole block went flames , 5 died \) assume 're talking philadelphia n't conspiracy , maybe screwed \? \? \? 're fan conspiracies , time make batch popcorn screwup , 's time coverup cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject news says batf indictment warrant unsealed organization stratus computer , inc lines 19 distribution world nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article 1993apr21 husc3 harvard edu , kim39 scws8 harvard edu \( john kim \) writes news sniper 9 outside mca l man arrested suspect disgruntled employee universal studios , division c shooting 44 cal blanks , suspect movie guys dangerous question californians guns denny trial \? practice , hope cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) subject text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption organization dsi uscrpac distribution na lines 50 n't figure , message reply another sci crypt , poster put p g followup line n't notice apologies confused substance makes little sense unless one reads prior messages however , n't wish enter discussion , yet another long tired set arguments suffice say disagree interpretation well regulated second amendment offered gun lovers , think distortion phrase associated federalist papers webster reading language convinces word meant control , disciplined , good think latter special interest pleading one yet shown reference well regulated unambiguously meant good , control disciplined , etc thus continue believe second amendment militia clause clause others welcome disagree \( know many \) little would served topic particular forum avoid flames , unproductive , note 've come post one message , clarify one i'm outta though i'm available via e mail david article n3n netcom com strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes though agree place discuss guns , note passing number gun apologists seem ignored words well regulated distorted interpretations second amendment david david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted
tedwards eng umd edu \( thomas grant edwards \) subject need info waco , machineguns organization project glue , university maryland , college park lines 23 nntp posting host src umd edu really sad op ed appeared school 's today claimed full auto weapons illegal u understand full auto weapons made registered may 19 , 1986 still legal 40 50 states texas one states \? anyone point source info many people killed legal full auto weapons u \? finally , think would great anyone keeping digest facts waco incident particular , would like source fbi batf mentioning supposed lab , information beginning raid , specifically batf lies also interested past batf knock lead personal property damage innocent citizens intend put together reply op ed soon author piece states wants work batf ! thomas
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization stratus computer , inc lines 26 distribution world nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article da2 menudo uh edu , hadcrjam admin uh edu \( miller , jimmy \) writes someone else pointed , would stove use warm day texas eat food cold \? minor quibble assualt \( one \) began near dawn fire break several hours find highly unlikely bd would cooking lunch armored vehicles punch holes house pumping tear gas look , n't want bore everybody physics woodstoves , 're anything like gas range takes three hours woodstove get hot enough cook , afterwards ca n't shut contain hot embers 24 hours even choke completely ai n't exactly light stove cook batch , aunt j use woodstove cooking , even heating house night , lit extent time trust one , speak experience cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
meyers leonardo rtp dg com \( bill meyers \) subject hr 1276 \( gun law live ! \) distribution usa organization n lines 43 article 1993apr15 dg rtp dg com , meyers leonardo rtp dg com \( bill meyers \) ! writes bill establish right obtain firearms security , use firearms defense self , family , home , provide enforcement right response article drg eagle natinst com chrisb natinst com \( chris bartz \) writes , right unless federal government says n't n't think like much article transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) writes maybe i'm religious , see bill establish right , keep mind , law giveth , law taketh away article gap caltech edu arc cco caltech edu \( aaron ray clement \) writes right mentioned bill already established second amendment bill reaffirm second amendment hey , guys 're absolutely correct , well way winning battle losing war yes , serious philosophical flaws hr 1276 technical ones , 'd like sue feds , lose , pay reasonable attorney 's fee \? \) still , one basic question compared 've got hr 1276 \( \) better , \( b \) worse \? one n't even take three guesses 's good enough show support hr 1276 , maybe change could ones saying 's reasonable first step 2nd amendment sovereignty , duck hunting
microsoft com \( allan \) subject cnn sale organization microsoft corp distribution usa lines 7 count 1000 00 allan opinions sale allan
gardner convex com \( steve gardner \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! nntp posting host imagine convex com organization engineering , convex computer corp , richardson , tx , usa x disclaimer message written user convex computer corp opinions expressed user necessarily convex lines 8 article da2 menudo uh edu hadcrjam admin uh edu \( miller , jimmy \) writes minor quibble assualt \( one \) began near dawn fire break several hours minor quibble back general area koresh compound tell air quite chilly morning , especially high winds blowing \( course swiss cheese walls made even worse \)
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject cost benefit analysis \( fbi director 's statement \) organization stratus computer , inc lines 19 distribution world nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article 93111 slacvm slac stanford edu , mgb slacvm slac stanford edu writes anyone noticed commented fact many willing , nay demanding , wait forever mr hussein iraq , use tremendously costly sanctions , avoid loss life , fore front smashed religious radicals wasting money allowing stand go \? see many groups protesting also know people feel exactly opposite \( e , treat citizens better saddam \) worm turns sect changes hey ! sect changes still illegal texas ! cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
cleveland freenet edu \( christopher j \) subject janet reno nightline organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 8 nntp posting host slc10 ins cwru edu 's worse show look janet reno others link words child abuse p rivate stores guns cleveland freenet edu chris \( 216 \) 327 6655 \( v \) would sacrifice essential liberties little temporary safety deserve neither liberty safety b franklin
pyron skndiv dseg ti com \( dillon pyron \) subject riddle lines 31 nntp posting host skndiv dseg ti com reply pyron skndiv dseg ti com organization ti dseg vax support distribution usa article 4t transfer stratus com , cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) writes article 1993apr20 050550 4660 jupiter sun csd unb ca , j979 jupiter sun csd unb ca \( fuller \) writes yet , fbi mouthpiece afternoon 's press conference characterized quantity cs gas pumped building massive , speculated hours exposure davidian gas masks would become useless sound harmful \? hm previous poster argued fact bd 's rush escape burning building indicated , government actions , started fire hand , wonder , face full massive amounts cs , would able escape burning tinder box like ranch house assuming best efforts imagine , seige almost two months enemy believe wants kill suddenly , pump tear gas building punch holes tanks fire breaks run outside slaughtered , stay face fate check ethiopia vs italy wwii answers question dillon pyron opinions expressed ti dseg lewisville vax support sender unless otherwise stated \( 214 \) 462 3556 \( i'm \) \( 214 \) 492 4656 \( i'm home \) texans vote robin hood need pyron skndiv dseg ti com solutions , gestures padi dm 54909
eck panix com \( mark eckenwiler \) subject waco fire organization nwo steering committee lines 14 cpqhou se hou compaq com , cpqhou se hou compaq com sez houston chronicle last thursday \( maybe wednesday \) said interior walls covered hay bales help protect bullets many know fast dry hay burns terribly interesting , n't belong misc legal take elsewhere , please hugged common nucleus operative fact today \? mark eckenwiler eck panix com ! cmcl2 ! panix ! eck
fred rain com \( fred brooks \) subject two found shot inside compound organization guns peace lines 12 today texas found two people , man woman shot head inside burned compound people fbi described days fbi said person found front compound shot several children also two people found today top main inside concrete bunker provided protection fire comment children shot still proved defend 2nd amendment rights nra aclu fred brooks portland oregon
jagst18 pitt edu \( josh grossman \) subject stupid media organization university pittsburgh lines 10 originator jagst18 cis pitt edu heard cnn texas rangers found m60 machine gun bd compound rubble called new hi tech military weapon ! ha ha ! ! would bet rock armory m60 semi auto , owned tax paid year m60 patented \? showing media twisting facts , josh
0005111312 mcimail com \( peter nesbitt \) subject write \? organization utexas mail news gateway lines 17 nntp posting host cs utexas edu okay copies relevant gun control bills i'm mad hell want get involved want join battle protect second amendment rights write \? concentrate writing comments \? actual author bill \? supporters bill \? congressman \? senator \? newspapers \? magazines \? \? n't believe change world , least going throw punches offer advice suggestions begin get involved \? thanks replying directly via e mail pnesbitt mcimail com
turmoil halcyon com \( tim crowley \) subject waco fire organization northwest nexus inc lines 20 nntp posting host nwfocus wa com eck panix com \( mark eckenwiler \) writes cpqhou se hou compaq com , cpqhou se hou compaq com sez houston chronicle last thursday \( maybe wednesday \) said interior walls covered hay bales help protect bullets many know fast dry hay burns terribly interesting , n't belong misc legal take elsewhere , please course 's certainly legal matter 's legal matter interest may simply put kill file ya turmoil halcyon com fuck police ! ! ! !
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject gun like american express card organization stratus computer , inc lines 76 distribution world nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article cmm 0 90 2 thomasp surt ifi uio , thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio writes i`m saying ban guns , take away responsible owners gun control laws end politicians never manage get handle obtain arms illegally , laws ever restrict people obtain legally karen , local attorney , states two million licensed gun owners massachusetts past year , number licensed gun owners involved gun crimes something like six yet , large number gun crimes state last year passing laws restricting people already obeying laws pay \? i`m guns treated respect owners , sellers legislators far , 've seen treated least respect legislators believe guns problem many countries crime rates would fell restricted see , call argument religion believe n't believe 's necessary take faith go look history countries passed gun restrictions pay particular attention whether violent crime higher restrictions lower \( n't look violent gun crimes , 's begging question \) may surprised crimes done guns stopped accidents also stopped reduced minimum would consider lifting gun control absolutely backwards crime stopped presence strict gun control , way would consider lifting however , gun control made absolutely improvement violent crime rate , that's would lifted think far , none stats show improvement car accidents fell minimum europe , \( probably people know \) would demand easier drivers tests \( ca 20 hours 2500 today \) really think driver 's tests indication propensity accidents \? 've never known anybody stupid enough take driving test drunk night two fighting kids back seat hot cup coffee lap putting makeup , reading newspaper , talking cellular phone 's 're accidents words legislation neccacery ! ! anything positive effect ever necessary \? one gun month case virginia thinking reactions proposal loud civil rights 2 amendment n't help , winnie poh want peace weapons winnie \? yes please ! i'm sorry , n't remember story winnie pooh offered weapons cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
megatest com \( bruce bowen \) subject text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption organization megatest corporation distribution na lines 17 article n3n netcom com , strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) though agree place discuss guns , note passing number gun apologists seem ignored words well regulated distorted interpretations second amendment well regulated , time writing context second amendment , means properly trained equipped modern language would read properly trained equipped militia , necessary security free state note word free , n't say police \) , right people keep bear arms , shall infringed bruce
subject waco headlines editorial boston globe steiner jupiter cse utoledo edu \( jason 'think ! ' steiner \) distribution world nntp posting host jupiter cse utoledo edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 18 john kim \( kim39 scws8 harvard edu \) writes boston globe , wednesday april 21 1993 little way rationality could expected koresh , self confessed sinner without equal funny , koresh say , quoting st paul course , early christians persecuted koresh quotes bible , long mainstream christians become target fbi 's loving care attention \? jason ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` ` , ` get cross need wood ` , ` ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` steiner jupiter cse utoledo edu ` , ` , ` , `
an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) subject message mr president know happened \? organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 24 reply an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu previous article , spl pitstop ucsd edu \( steve lamont \) says article acsu buffalo edu v111qheg ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( p vasilion \) writes , notice , says arms guns arms zog wants think legitimate possessor nuclear weapons unconstitutional ! much right kilogram two nice weapons grade plutonium cruddy little pointy headed liberal los alamos support right keep bear short range nuclear weapons 's legitimate challenging sport good another liberal converted waco ! dave something realistic , would none bradley vehicle crap somebody talk politics guns offering free nra hurry
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject rewording second amendment \( ideas \) organization stratus computer , inc lines 16 distribution world nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article 1993apr21 ousrvr oulu fi , dfo vttoulu tko vtt fi \( foxvog douglas \) writes article viking ponderous cc iastate edu viking iastate edu \( dan sorenson \) writes 'll give little hint see manure pile farmer 's field road \? usa , weapon mass destruction , nope considered weapon ironic , since 's pretty much used blow world trade center cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
v111qheg ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( p vasilion \) subject waco burning organization university buffalo lines 25 news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host ubvmsb cc buffalo edu article dscomsa desy de , hallam zeus02 desy de writes snip anyone u heard anything similar u government spin doctors censoring information \? b b c news also reporting 20 died british citizens b b c also reporting bodies b members found bullet wounds manner suggests may shot attempting leave compound fire possibility bodies people killed initial shootout phill hallam baker imagine happens magazine explodes \? bullets go flying every imho , gunshot wounds actually caused magazines went texas ranger pathologist make , 'll wait autopsy determine shot first either way , 're dead fbi atty gen still
larry peak psl nmsu edu \( evil engineer cowboy way \) subject atf burns dividian ranch update organization new mexico state university , metaphysical science laboratory lines 27 distribution usa 93110 cmuvm bitnet 1993apr21 341 gtewd mtv gtegsc com nntp posting host peak nmsu edu reply yodicet gtewd mtv gtegsc com 's message 21 apr 93 11 28 57 0800 21 apr 93 11 28 57 0800 , yodicet gtewd mtv gtegsc com said ah yes , see liberal weenies come woodwork defend burning children probably drooled watching tv coverage probably like nazi germany , well oh yeah , atf fbi claims , according media , survivors number seems vary minute minute yodicet yodicet yodicet hmm n't say l yeh , buddy larry psl nmsu edu \( larry cunningham \) 've got computer ! physical science laboratory \( \) \( \) right ! ! new mexico state university \( computer ! \) las cruces , new mexico , usa disclaimer opinions expressed correct , mine , oh sure , could easy way would n't cowboy way
tuba calpoly edu \( sean lawrence parker \) subject nra commercial organization california polytechnic state university , san luis obispo lines 14 saw new commercial \( \? \) nra starts bunch politicians talking get rid crime finally realize need put criminals away longer n't enough jail space decide another gun law \( whole seen various statistics easy criminals get \) next seen politician tv gun law get rid crime grungy looking guy \( criminal \) watching tv laughing ass classic sean
djh4484 rigel tamu edu \( , daniel joseph \) subject shoot somebody organization texas university , academic computing services lines 75 distribution world nntp posting host rigel tamu edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article 93108 025818u28037 uicvm uic edu , jason kratz u28037 uicvm uic edu writes heard many opinions subject would like hear people net say 're situation pull gun somebody give chance get away decided continue action anyway end shooting killing question \? stay wait cops collect brass \( 're using semi auto \) get \( provided course n't think seen \) \? kind laws books regarding type situation \? would likely thing happen stayed waited first offense \? would happen took someone saw caught \? anyone \? jason u28037 uicvm cc uic edu said situation would , reviewing cases 've seen reported articles 've read etc , suggest safest legal course action follows warn assailant loudly clear tones weapon \( yes ! even though 's blatantly obvious ! \) shoot advances cease whatever hostile action currently involved \( ie drop knife 'll shoot ! \) repeat process three times , ! \( 's pointing freaking gun ! 's kinda impractical \) \( variables try address turn \) said warning \( considering 's ignored \) aim center mass fire drops ! , 's practicality n't gone 's still threat ! \( support 45 \) turns runs pursue fire back ! fired anger burn later ! \( though cases see might bother much ! \) drop ! remain ! witness \( create one yelling top lungs ! \) call police , wait ! weapon visibly ! place ground nearby attempt brass police use 's location piece together scene along testimony witnesses mentally mark witnesses ! police say none came forward let know saw ! attempt keep weapon loaded minimum required \( hell phrase \? \) try avoid special purpose ammunition hollow points rounds give opposing lawyer type loaded phrasing need jury fully intended kill someone ! special purpose rounds think would actually help case \( several \) glaser safety slug \( oh lovely name safety slug \) stated purpose stated design parameters round life court \( ie attempting create bullet , , designed stop \( kill \( gee , bad two often cross , damn i'm real sorry rapist dead ! ! \) assailant one shot , , real life saver hostile court cooperative police possible ! show repeat information often requested often ask questions verify facts , , unfortunately , see lying fill statements show required identification weapon permits \( ! registered citizens ! register politicians deadly tax weapons needing confiscated ! \) required state contact lawyer immediately decide hold questioning needed cannot afford one , contact nra legal assistance fund \( least used \) hope member ! \( business either way though \) vague anything , left questions unanswered , e mail post \( e mail n't load time review news \) kane truely representative government need never fear 's armed citizens ! batf ! bankrupt ted turner hci ! give gun pry cold , dead hand ! death tyrants ! space rent ! kane djh4484 rigel tamu edu
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject larry king interview koresh 's lawyer organization stratus computer , inc lines 28 distribution world nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com alt law enforcement article 1993apr20 msus1 msus edu , hayden krypton mankato msus edu \( robert hayden \) writes caught last 15 minutes show \( hope see repeats later \) , manage catch summary according koresh 's lawyer guy \( sure \) , davidians start fire apparently made several attempts escaping blocked smoke , fire , fbi tanks states interviews 9 davidians escaped indicated suicide pact fire set fbi \( got impression , sure \) something whole mess n't smell right n't feb 28th n't robert hayden black holes result god dividing universe zero hayden krypton mankato msus edu slc4 ins cwru edu include std disclaimer h cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
organization university illinois chicago , academic computer center u23590 uicvm uic edu subject change name \? \? cmm 0 90 2 thomasp surt ifi uio lines 17 post want , foreigner 'd rather hear 'll support fascist writes salary edu site types ! expect police come assault , lay siege refuse help \( yes , let 's give benefit doubt \) accidently burn ranch home \? even though ey emergency vehicles nearby \? proper response keep \? even hurt anyone \? 're cooperative cops occasionally come \? hope watkins earth eecs uic edu
jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization hand held products , inc lines 38 distribution world nntp posting host dale handheld com article hydra gatech edu gt5311b prism gatech edu \( bhattacharya , abhijit \) writes article 408 transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) writes think 200 tax evasion justifies armed assault government 100 armed men trailers , orchestrated character assassination , noise torture , holocaust \? doubt koresh let batf look inside place intended , orchestrated character assassination , noise torture , holocaust would never come pass bd 's killed members batf first day orchestrated character assassination noise torture seem like small retribution phrase innocent proven guilty meaning anymore \? use tanks however abhijit bhattacharya , abhijit georgia institute technology , atlanta georgia , 30332 uucp ! decvax , hplabs , ncar , purdue , rutgers ! gatech ! prism ! gt5311b internet gt5311b prism gatech edu jmd handheld com i'm always rethinking 's never day n't rethought ca n't bill clinton 6 april 93 american , englishman , foreign troop landed country , never would lay arms , never never never ! william pitt , earl chatham 1708 1778 18 nov 1777
jpsb neosoft com \( jim shirreffs \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization neosoft communications services \( 713 \) 684 5900 lines 7 speaking sick bastard , noticed kent state university guess come full circle someone kent favoring excessive force govenment subdue incorrect thinking jim shirreffs speak
jpsb neosoft com \( jim shirreffs \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization neosoft communications services \( 713 \) 684 5900 keywords nata thing ! ! lines 8 think 200 tax evasion justifies armed assault government 100 armed men trailers , orchestrated character assassination , noise torture , holocaust \? shit , i'm going lot filling income tax ! jim shirreffs
jpsb neosoft com \( jim shirreffs \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization neosoft communications services \( 713 \) 684 5900 lines 10 let 's discuss reno 's taking full everyone happy outcome \? fbi pursue correct course action \? justice done \? reno really meant said would resign ! grand standing , period people wrong first place \? ca n't figure sure crazy , , wrong \? someone please help jim shirreffs speak
jpsb neosoft com \( jim shirreffs \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization neosoft communications services \( 713 \) 684 5900 lines 12 fbi started fire , didn`t people flee burning building \? james dusek james , could determined stay together compound matter happened perhaps fire accidental , db simply refused leave died fighting fire \? knows wait see find hard believe would agree burn ! horrible way go jim shirreffs
info ccsvax sfasu edu \( sfasu anonymous account \) subject waco suicide \? organization stephen f austin state university lines 20 us questioned mass suicide line may still wondered , n't suicide , get \? answer available gas government pouring disabling use wartime banned chemical weapons treaty u agreed use gas enemy soldiers wartime , used peacetime civilians , including children confirmation see friday 's clinton press briefing george , posted alt news media locations \( questioned , reply treaty forbid internal use law enforcement agencies posting stephen f austin state university 's anonymous account please report abuses ccsvax sfasu edu
feustel netcom com \( david feustel \) subject waco fire organization dafco os 2 software support consulting lines 14 dhartung chinet chi il us \( dan hartung \) writes course , true , clever attempt make seem harmless folk minding business nice touch using word seem dave feustel n9myi feustel netcom com u government become garrotte around necks citizens garrotte , people struggle breathe air freedom , government tightens stranglehold possible outcomes point death government elimination personal freedom
v111qheg ubvmsd cc buffalo edu \( p vasilion \) subject waco burning organization university buffalo lines 58 news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host ubvmsd cc buffalo edu article clem handheld com , jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) writes article acsu buffalo edu v111qheg ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( p vasilion \) writes article dscomsa desy de , hallam zeus02 desy de writes snip anyone u heard anything similar u government spin doctors censoring information \? b b c news also reporting 20 died british citizens b b c also reporting bodies b members found bullet wounds manner suggests may shot attempting leave compound fire possibility bodies people killed initial shootout phill hallam baker imagine happens magazine explodes \? bullets go flying every imho , gunshot wounds actually caused magazines went texas ranger pathologist make , 'll wait autopsy determine shot first would doubt bullets would go flying particular force make bullet leave scene cartridge going outside barrel brass shell would burst soon give bullet real velocity would n't want near , think bullet wounds would result shrapnel wounds would likely least understanding necessarily body denatured \( cooked \) dehydrated due heat , projectile needs minimal kinetic force penetrate fire , bodies tend fall apart loose large chunks meat little effort medical examiners tend like cleaning scenes , body suitably cooked , bullet comming magazine explosion would likely enough force enter thus would difficult determine whether bullet entered time death , much later , unless trained look evidence texas rangers either way , 're dead fbi atty gen still yep , least large part jmd handheld com p vasilion
cathy lance colostate edu \( cathy smith \) subject lies texas l neil smith nntp posting host blanca lance colostate edu organization colorado state university , fort collins , co 80523 lines 108 posted l neil smith cathy smith lies texas okay , learned \? reasons still kept secret , federal agency already known well enough examined rebuked several legislative committees years longstanding , violent disregard law , invades home man whose religious beliefs personal habits , violating rights first , second , fourth , fifth , ninth , fourteenth amendments constitution man followers fight back , killing four outlaw agency 's , wounding many , suffering losses process agency responds cutting electricity , water , especially contact outside world free say anything pronouncements contradict one another daily agency finds locked bitter power struggle another outfit eager gain credit mess , importantly , script side subsequent negotiations way please impasse lasts almost two months , ironically , time four l cops given second trial single individual , one ugliest riots history armored vehicles surround house , already snipers using , high powered rifles loudspeakers playing obnoxious records highest possible volume , , deprive house sleep \( aftermath , nobody authority mention effect technique , originated north korean communists battle tactic , may judgment \) finally another irony 50th anniversary rising warsaw ghetto , armor punches holes house gas kind injected house bursts flame reduced ashes less hour least 80 lives , including dozen children , snuffed outlaw agencies , attorney general , president hold press conferences articulate common theme blame victim illegal weapons soon prepared secret government workshop planted among examined agency created abusing children tapes stored data jfk assassination set fire snipers saw film 11 3000 shot followers tried escape jim jones \? best , 's dead ca n't say damn thing us , contact world severed start whole travesty leading national paper claims 93 american people believe man resisted savage attack home somehow responsible everything resulted ever know 93 americans agree anything n't sound like outcome soviet election opinion poll \? well , infer \? starters , never forget , although democratic careers line \( rightfully \) fiasco , outlaw agency 's admission , planned republican administration may explain paul harvey , evidently used courage integrity changing mind \( time \) war viet nam acting little mouthpiece state regard bill rights importantly , rush limbaugh , 's quivering tower whole thing , takes essentially stance bill clinton , 's time fundamental changes , system , least within march 5 , back beginning , mary , national chair libertarian party , issued press release condemning outlaw agency calling abolition fact , lp promised platform since 1977 , least 16 years , abolish agencies involved waco i'm proud say helped write true , lp tiny insignificant \( although less 1977 ask democrats georgia doubt \) , alone howling wilderness fascists scrambling cover phony polls big lies , lp right happened waco advice followed 1977 , waco never would happened think think fact , 've enough political parties interested collecting holding power whatever cost bill rights , let alone human life defending expanding individual liberty , maybe change 's time within make lp less tiny insignificant single voice single vote think l neil smith author probability broach , crystal empire , henry martyn , \( forthcoming \) editor lever action bbs \( 303 \) 493 6674 , fidonet 1 306 31 4 libertarian second amendment caucus nra life member opinions , course ,
cathy lance colostate edu \( cathy smith \) subject surrender jackson nntp posting host blanca lance colostate edu organization colorado state university , fort collins , co 80523 lines 106 surrender ! delivered jackson rkba rally denver , april 18 , 1993 fact modern life urban residents , particularly women , feel threatened certain number actually threatened immediate threats , things women tell 're afraid noise downstairs night lonely walk car stranger door abusive husband , finally kicked house threatens hurt children mugger rapist told solution \? move get dog keep door locked call police next last resort , learn martial arts always , 's implied question 's pretty little thing like without husband around protect \? n't like dogs \? like living alone \? n't 10 years devote learning \? , examining facts , woman learns rape victims using armed resistance less likely rape completed less likely injured \( kleck , 124 \) using form resistance \( kleck , 126 \) \( also true robbery assault \) \( kleck , 123 \) , horror despair , find citizens cannot depend police effective protection usually respond crime committed truth , supreme court held police responsible protecting individual , whole community society , going ask women , , sacrifice \? going continue deny women ability help \? 's thought neil smith , book probability broach , says 220 pound thug threaten well dignity 110 pound woman two pounds iron even things woman decides protect , easiest , efficient means possible , people especially women horrified , could \? 'd terrified ! ask could hurt someone \? 'll repeat lie 'll get taken away truth , 1 defensive gun uses result offender taking gun away victim \( 122 , kleck \) well , despite lies , social pressure , us already made hard choice 've decided going victimized muggers , rapists 're buying guns every 're learning use teaching others , women men , use importantly , preparing mentally use firearms defense 're taking security , literally , hands 're going stop begging pleading marching intend really take back night 's another threat , mugger , secretive , soul destroying rapist menace government , threatens us know governments , throughout time , suppressed rights oppressed people 's way survive names money , interferes innocent people home abroad lies us , cheats us , steals us threatens us violence one knows exactly 'll next freedom lose government goon decides 's safety know best person acted like government would within inch life locked habitual offender monster called government persists , grows , masters , become unwilling slaves doubt \? file income tax \? like reasonable person , believe afraid something hurt smart , paranoia n't crazy someone 's really make mistake , 're 're names familiar brady reynolds , , , moynihan , clinton 're lucky , 'll settle assault rifles , shotguns , handguns ammunition citizens , two choices two choices given women surrender fight surrender leads , genocide pol pot , , intend surrender battle philosophical political main , people keep government honest threatening vote office , keep mind words thomas jefferson tree liberty must well watered blood patriots patriot , point error government 's ways best vote office protest , write , speak , teach children justice , honor truth always remember rebellion lead bunker hill saratoga lead tiananmen square time comes stand , give life keep going far , tiananmen square future , intend matter lies tell matter laws pass , intend meet something substantial hand brick opinions , course ,
tomgift uxa cso uiuc edu \( tom gift \) subject truth starts come distribution usa organization university illinois urbana lines 9 would someone please post generic addresses congress senate write letters \? us house representatives washington , dc us senate washington , dc
irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \( brent irvine \) subject atf burns dividian ranch update distribution usa organization university illinois urbana champaign lines 17 article c5uhuo awq usenet ucs indiana edu wwarf silver ucs indiana edu \( wayne j warf \) writes article nate 1485 735408842 psygate psych indiana edu nate psygate psych indiana edu \( nathan engle \) writes yeah , information trickles funny works funny , yeah , funny n't wait fbi spokesdroid latest reversal facts proclaiming bd 's burned death wo n't believe anything government says , press reliable according logic , base statements \? wild speculation laced healthy dose paranoia \? personal opinions \? , brent irvine yes think irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \?
oaf zurich ai mit edu \( oded feingold \) subject dealing cults thoughts organization artificial intelligence lab lines 131 reply oaf zurich ai mit edu nntp posting host klosters ai mit edu wake waco , email discussions people group particular , discussed cults operate , fbi might motivated black news behave way , kinds problems involved dealing cults similar organizations include edited account wrote identity correspondents \( hope \) erased editing process makes text choppy sorry 've tried retain information content ellipses \( \) indicate text removed comments new , intended make easier outsiders understand notes preliminary feel free criticize cheers \( \? \) , oded \( begin included text \) took course called madness crowds , course included cults briefly mentioned analyzed jonestown \( external reading \) william edited series books psychology evil mass movements starting authoritarian personality , university chicago press , 1948 attempt figure would motivate people support fascism bad guys wwii , extension wars , racial n't think books perfect , study advanced , elicit koresh types even first volume think 're onto something cult psychology works i'm amateur hope i'm hopelessly naive long koresh could people , made sure n't believe life , away otherwise , 'd \( koresh \) nothing siege , ex davidians recounted convinced people compound survived intercession god spare worthless souls absolutely classic brainwashing technique long believed , 'd ignore batf fbi child protective services even red cross asking come , ever left , god would straight hell , combined forces us gummint , goodwill world \( doubtful \) could n't save second believed , 'd stay die , like folks jonestown analogy , replace cult leader wife \( husband \) , notice many folks show , kill ex 's consequence shattered really happen time way , ideal cases , without life meaningless , relationship , matter abusive , rather individual 's partner news , n't feds owe world explanation \? agree official explanations order also see good \( \? \) reasons news fact available fbi acted yesterday , people would alive today matter , people would died , koresh made sure believed lives outside influence hence would make little difference fbi acted held hostage , trump going jail , nothing would really stop offing even fbi went away ! look history rep leo ryan \( staffers \) visited jonestown , request constituents relatives jonestown discovered , even though killed ryan killed , jim jones knew 'd busted internal arguments asking spare children , brought women cult , shouted tapes logic saying matter bad gummint , would n't kill kids , shouted blasphemy , people brought threatened people would dead within hour suspect 's branch davidians \( 's book jonestown james reston jr , titled father art hell n't know whether 's good never read \) way prevent problem would never investigate reports child abuse sexual mistreatment , organizations buying full auto conversion kits shipping hand grenades via ups , chance stumbling across cults would kill , way batf fbi could save people , future cults , ignoring signs suppose 's another way koresh letting go , somehow influencing people abandon owns means communication world mighty tough row suspect fbi tried , noise sensory insults however , maybe 're sophisticated , maybe job impossible 's certainly possible guy running show jerk fbi might want blackout coverup poor job bd 's koresh , 'd want keep quiet would n't embarrassed trying bd 's koresh , 'd want keep quiet could n't , well meaning point view would n't screw hate playing chess world screams face , especially time people really die , could blamed n't think ignoring incidents workable policy , unless deny fbi , batf , child protective services \( whatever stripe \) rest gummint exist \( end \) okay ,
gozer mv com \( kevin l mcbride \) subject cnn sale organization central southern nh usenet access , nashua , nh distribution usa lines 10 croaker highlite uucp \( francis ney \) writes add voice \( hopefully \) growing multitudes hereby pledge 1000 00 towards purchase cnn , conditions already described also post idea nets access \( rime libernet \) 'll go 1000 worth cnn stock anyone nra listening \?
lairdb crash cts com \( laird p broadfield \) subject cnn sale influencing coverage organization well , head top , arm side , two legs distribution usa lines 25 1993apr19 guinness idbsu edu betz gozer idbsu edu \( andrew betz \) writes article 1993apr19 ucsu colorado edu fcrary ucsu colorado edu \( frank crary \) writes 'd willing go well way , would n't need buy network wholesale simply owning large number shares would still work \( 5 shareholders want pro gun coverage rest n't really care , 'll go along keep 5 happy \) 'd go along plan well turner 's stock traded american exchange 3 classes \( , b , c \) b stock currently 23 bucks share c stock 11 bucks share anybody idea much stock tbs issued \? would take reach 5 , 51 , even 100 \? um , hesitate bring , owning even single share entitles attend annual shareholders meeting , corporate introduce topics discussed n't suggest tactic used japan \( go shareholders meeting , disrupt everything \) , well worded resolution complaining advocacy journalism \? laird p broadfield lairdb crash cts com ucsd , nosc ! crash ! lairdb hi ! i'm shareware signature ! send 5 use , send 10 manual !
nomad ecst csuchico edu \( michael larish \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! article charnel organization california state university , chico lines 48 nntp posting host hairball ecst csuchico edu article c5tenu 112f ns1 nodak edu green plains nodak edu \( bill green \) writes would like see serious discussion incident believe moves made right proper , still problems tactics watching abc special tonight , well cnn nightline , question atf fbi actions god , sane person ! somebody asking intelligent questions rather spouting unsubstantiated drivel making comparisons nazi germany question , along others , initial raid atf definite questions needing answers 1 \) could possible taken koresh outside compound time feb 28th raid \? probably many people angry initial confrontation attack compound many people compound willing die leader \? , attacked daylight hours without proper backup , medical support , etc rather stupid 2 \) could wait resulted different outcome doubt question atf 's initial raid , believe remainder standoff handled fairly well single exception psychological warfare blaring music , etc think uncalled probably hindered outcome 3 \) fbi actions \( blaring loudspeakers , etc \) right course action \? see questions like said , believe actions taken , general , proper still reservations agreed one point , i'm fan janet reno , like way balls go ahead take full responsibility seems like waffle boy problems figuring stood issue actually rather refreshing nowadays time , higher ups claim n't remember involvement \) michael g larish amateur radio callsign nomad ecst csuchico edu golden empire amateur radio society \( gears \) california state chico state amateur radio society \( \) university , chico butte county sheriff 's search rescue 317
ebrandt jarthur claremont edu \( eli brandt \) subject batf fbi murders almost everyone waco today ! 4 19 organization harvey mudd college , claremont , ca 91711 lines 15 article c5sou8 lnb news udel edu roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) writes someone would release children compound suppose 's late , repeated use word release peculiar let 's say family besieged home people tanks , helicopters , automatic weapons give break amplified sounds dying rabbits blare , ! release children , 'll perfectly right top may epistemology entirely order entirely surprising branch davidians reluctant release children fbi custody \? pgp 2 key finger e mail eli ebrandt jarthur claremont edu
roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) subject photographers removed compound nntp posting host chopin udel edu organization university delaware distribution na lines 48 relay coverage seen press conference authorities compound cnn earlier today \( wednesday \) explained two news photographers found compound earlier morning without permission explained press corps dangerous unknown photographer turning around long lens camera could mistaken someone dangerous texas ranger surveying site \( ! \) two photographers said currently jail press warned follow guidelines also emphasized survey crime scene point crucial press could allowed interfere press allowed bodies removed site completely surveyed evidence court case gist beginning conference best memory bring n't seen anyone else note n't seen regular newscasts mention probably mentioned papers tomorrow opinions find disturbing believe koresh largely responsible ending standoff manner last 51 days patient opportunity , find secrecy surrounding aftermath damaging position realize since vast majority potential defendents court case already dead , emphasis importance building court case seems interesting see hearings affair also heard congressional calls review possible overhaul government enforcement agencies recall stated would good idea previous months please also note means endorse agree many conspiracy type theories read groups usual , basing opinions info gathered various media filtered common sense consideration , imho , opinion subject change information made available scott roby standard disclaimer
r1328 vmcms csuohio edu subject clinton joins list genocidal socialist leaders organization csu lines 64 article rdt usenet ins cwru edu bu008 cleveland freenet edu \( brandon ray \) writes previous article , nomad ecst csuchico edu \( michael larish \) says article btr btr com michaelh public btr com \( michael hahn michaelh btr com \) writes partial list excellent socialist tolls 've taken unpopular religious ethnic social groups mao tse tung millions killed j stalin millions killed hitler millions killed pol pot 100 , killed \? w j clinton 100 killed , relax 's hundred days people rather amusing perverse sort way take tragic unpleasant situation feel terrible , assign blame anybody everybody without link incident simply n't fit extremely narrow definition good clinton responsible \? law enforcement action granted , nationally covered incident clinton outcome fred perhaps 've rock last days \? batf fbi federal agencies clinton admitted front news cameras janet reno \( future attorney general \) gave full briefing planned , gave go ahead maybe , possibly , makes bit responsible \? fbi , cia , batf , etc federal agencies , correct think visible clear chain command prez , agencies inform reno informs clinton , etc naive agencies operate distinct seperate entities ultimate accountability prez , make moves , tell prez , says , knew along may seem right , may fit idealistic need see structured chain command leading white house , thats way , , composed 3 4 people talk regular basis , lunch , maybe golf together agree , fbi , batf messed i'm sure stormed compound way , witnesses religious minority country protestantism minority religion world bds cult definitions history cults say persecute religious ethnic enclave koresh said messiah raised baptist , although practice religion think big guy upstairs digging , , right wing morons associated religion anyway , messiah taught would carrying gun , let alone stockpiling weapons doubt batf reports want , david koresh poor soul persecuted information coming u government keep public opinion side , believe things former cult members said true anyway , another excuse try blame president clinton something people attempt political motives ashamed ones keeping country reaching full potential
hadcrjam admin uh edu \( miller , jimmy \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization university houston administrative computing lines 30 distribution world nntp posting host uhad2 admin uh edu x news reader vms news 1 24 reply dbernard clesun central sun com 's message 22 apr 1993 11 36 47 gmt cronkite central sun com dbernard clesun central sun com writes article news eng convex com , gardner convex com \( steve gardner \) writes article da2 menudo uh edu hadcrjam admin uh edu \( miller , jimmy \) writes minor quibble assualt \( one \) began near dawn fire break several hours minor quibble back general area koresh compound tell air quite chilly morning , especially high winds blowing \( course swiss cheese walls made even worse \) correct wrt idea heating nice morning part line also guy said minutes later , fires started forget cool day flying around n't make wind still , either got 30 40 mph winds swinging across texas plain , couple n't add one whole hell lot semper fi , jammer jim miller texas university '89 '91 n't speak uh , bad , could use help become one student billing system student billing system power finds way take stand stand , ordinary man rik emmet , gil moore , mike levine triumph
bob hobbes dtcc edu \( bob rahe \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization delaware technical community college lines 40 nntp posting host hobbes dtcc edu article charnel ecst csuchico edu nomad ecst csuchico edu \( michael larish \) writes article c5tenu 112f ns1 nodak edu green plains nodak edu \( bill green \) writes 2 \) could wait resulted different outcome doubt question atf 's initial raid , believe remainder standoff handled fairly well single exception psychological warfare blaring music , etc think uncalled probably hindered outcome suppose waited worst outcome would one actually fbi atf standing watching instead part problem would clear exactly fault , rather way turned , would worst case best would , finally get hungry come possible likely \? well , alternative worse one point , i'm fan janet reno , like way balls go ahead take full responsibility seems like waffle boy problems figuring stood issue actually rather refreshing nowadays time , higher ups claim n't remember involvement \) matter \? say n't remember n't make difference \? pretty good lying n't necessary , n't time n't necessary claiming full responsibility meaningless gesture symbolism substance ! 've offered take full responsibility pay big bucks ag making \? \? \? \? \) bob rahe , delaware tech comm college aids , drugs , abortion internet bob hobbes dtcc edu n't liberals kill \? ci , 525 genie bob rahe save whales kill babies \?
organization arizona state university shooting club asu asuacad bitnet subject crimestrike phoenix gazette editorial lines 36 editorial a10 , saturday , april 24 , 1993 crimestrike hits town chilling reality crime hands urban terrorists noted \( high school student gang article column \) , welcome ranks dedicated moving criminals streets national rifle association 's new crimestrike project , engineered arizona 's former chief assist ant attorney general steven j twist crimestrike working reverse disturbing trend daily crime promoting solutions applied nationally , including tough honest sentencing sort arizona applying truth sentencing law funding construction appropriate prison space ensuring system punish serious offenders strict attention rights victims citizen community involvement phoenix home national organization gazette vigorously opposed many nra policies issues gun control , promoting prudent laws seek reasonable regulation firearms crimestrike appropriate creation , response clear need robust holding legislators judges ac comes swiftly surely punishing criminals organization issue , issue , crime strike especially willing direct dollars getting criminals street say , welcome town
odysseus \( aaron walker \) subject little question blame \( atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! nntp posting host odysseus organization mae lines 36 article 1993apr21 053035 29591 mcs kent edu , mhamilto nimitz mcs kent edu \( lawnmowerman \) writes however branch davidian people insisted staying savior \( yeah right budy boy \) brain washed believing ever says truth , even means give lives cause , n't \? 's hardly first faith sect cult espouse type belief therefore davids fault atf 's gave 50 51 days get , 50 days many many rest u keep hearing , 'll agree come \( legally , best option \) , n't far know , legal provision 're tired shit , lets kick ass question goes come point gun , saying i'm going count ten , n't standing head , 'll kill believe standing head road damnation , n't 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 bang ! dead fault shooting , 're fault shot \? koresh would n't stand head aaron
gt6511a prism gatech edu \( cochrane , james shapleigh \) subject riddle organization georgia institute technology lines 24 article chinet chi il us dhartung chinet chi il us \( dan hartung \) writes gt6511a prism gatech edu \( cochrane , james shapleigh \) writes subject cs cn tear gas received initial introduction could n't find window six hours \? daniel hartung dhartung chinet chinet com ask rotaract ever violently sick repeatedly \? , difficult drag back bed , much less move building full smoke debris , especially likely already disoriented lack sleep constant psychological abuse throw fact outside consists people shot thrown grenades , currently knocking house tanks , could understand bd 's inclined stay put center building james cochrane danger , doubt , run space gt6511a prism gatech edu circles , scream shout rent
0005111312 mcimail com \( peter nesbitt \) subject starting letter writing campaign organization utexas mail news gateway lines 63 nntp posting host cs utexas edu okay , result efforts i'm getting started type activity , please set flame low comments , corrections , suggestions , welcomed editor , would like ask readers questions related right keep bear arms , greater degree , many rights take granted daily basis 1 're sleeping night , hear someone house call police defend , need arise , waiting police \? 2 driving family home car breaks good samaritan stops help , find family gun point knife point defend \? family \? 3 woman walking alone car home man appears suddenly intent rape defend \? strong enough fight attacker \? willing let man rape order survive attack \? house senate way , soon right keep bear arms , provided second amendment constitution gun may answer every dangerous situation , going let politicians decide sort force weapon may use defend family \? many times situation may brandishing handgun certain members house senate way , 25 , 32 , 9mm ammunition banned sale anyone military law enforcement departments soon , may able purchase ammunition use handgun already 15 day waiting period california really feel law abiding citizen required wait amount time purchase handgun life family members threatened \? local police excellent job , time , moments notice right protect waiting help arrive currently legislation circulating washington would prohibit sale certain types , handguns , rifles , shot guns one elected official even wants repeal second amendment ! want ask readers paper would elected officials decided belong certain church , go church day \? told could read certain books \? write certain subjects \? longer right jury peers \? right assemble peaceful manner \? rights provided constitution amendments give one right , may well give fight right keep bear arms , fight \? life affected \? write law makers ! protect rights defending second amendment rights
djh4484 zeus tamu edu \( , daniel joseph \) subject cnn sale organization texas university , academic computing services lines 17 distribution usa nntp posting host zeus tamu edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article geraldo cc utexas edu , mikey ccwf cc utexas edu \( strider \) writes article 93106 cmuvm bitnet 34aej7d cmuvm bitnet writes article 2001 150 uupcb yob sccsi com , jim wray yob sccsi com \( jim wray \) says bill vojak hey ! get together , i'm ! one poor \( college student \) get bank account set aside , set aside big ass data base get contribution i'm setting aside 10 month slew cash sure , 's best let know guys come i'm sure hell going anywhere e mail djh4484 rigel tamu edu death tyrants ! kane better ideas anyone \? n't heard 'em yet !
viking iastate edu \( dan sorenson \) subject rewording second amendment \( ideas \) organization iowa state university , ames ia lines 105 dfo vttoulu tko vtt fi \( foxvog douglas \) writes viking iastate edu \( dan sorenson \) writes really depends upon draw line defining weapons , means would support ban narrow enough good narrow , narrow 'll recall , nut advocated possibility tactical nukes militia weapons certain situations possibly define weapon n't start also intend law reflective modern practice five months five centuries road would hope let 's define nuclear weapon explosive weapon whose majority energy comes fission fusion atomic nuclei 've described civilian reactor definition fails note energy considered reactors blow steam explosion , majority energy still comes fission fusion heated coolant see worms \? last heard , ft station north omaha , nebraska n't considered weapon given sodium cooled breeder designs blocks , easily envision reactors household appliances twenty years prism design , operator input needed reactor , unreasonable assume secondary side made equally automatic future definition flawed respects already let 's define biological weapon live organisms viruses state , quantity , vector could cause death serious disease defined significant number people released city , similarly populated area , , mary would likely fit bill n't mind , hiv positive person also fits bill interact others way stands chance spreading virus finally , manure pile mention fits definition , , say , releasing pet wild nerve gas mustard gas well defined poisonous gasses individually banned shown use related weaponry licenses available research purposes chemicals show gas uses example , perhaps would like rid hay field gophers calcium carbide rock dissolves water produce gas used welding , miners lamps , gassing gophers , making carbide bombs illicit fishing toss toilet leave cigarette seat 'll see also weapon , like flammable substance , miners lamps wo n't work , ca n't welding , still gophers lawyer , ideas could certainly basis definitions basis , i'm sure see problem writing law , writing law cannot abused extended beyond point good 'll give little hint see manure pile farmer 's field road \? usa , weapon mass destruction , nope considered weapon proposed law pit run underground fuel tanks biological nature , gets washed open well contaminate aquifers supply thousands cities drinking water , draw line \? usa , epa ruled pile scrap iron illegal care draw thinner line time \? defined weapon mass destruction many things banned reasons meets criterion weapon instrument used fighting , even though intended purpose , despite better weapons around given aquifers supply significant part country drinking water , mass destruction rather given 's certain weapons n't something 'd rather see lot people problem nearly impossible write law cannot abused upon pretext another looser definition , ripe abuse law furthermore , get specific old standby insert clause allowing list banned things added , generally without going hassles another vote public reading law , ripe abuse dan sorenson , dod 1066 z1dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu censors read , say n't blame usenet post exotic , distant machines meet exciting , unusual people flame
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject cnn report fbi atf killing americans organization stratus computer , inc lines 41 distribution usa nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article 1993apr22 csli stanford edu , cower csli stanford edu \( richard cower \) writes cnn reported atf fbi begun killing everyone united states press release stated action required bugs revealed many people something illegal homes , statistical data indicated n't might someday something illegal atf spokesperson , shot , stated would clean things still unsure whether satire , jury still also yesterday , even though compound longer exists , us attorney 's office released formerly sealed documents , including search warrant related , authorities planned use siege documents include original warrants bureau alcohol , tobacco , firearms late february , day never released one documents indicated agency planned seek samples koresh 's handwriting verify signed gun purchases , also espoused doctrines hostile law enforcement particularly atf ' , one charges koresh seems contempt cop expressed hostility batf chilly feeling perfectly normal , folks go away 51 days quick brown fox jumps lazy dog abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz save trouble subpoena ing samples heavens knows want cooperate fully , cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
viking iastate edu \( dan sorenson \) subject riddle organization iowa state university , ames ia lines 22 dhartung chinet chi il us \( dan hartung \) writes gt6511a prism gatech edu \( cochrane , james shapleigh \) writes subject cs cn tear gas received initial introduction tear gas , first thing came mind location exit anything way , corners negotiate , doors open , obstacles movement , would difficult time exiting could n't find window six hours \? 'd bet cash 90 people could n't find window six minutes ! ask anybody 's taken basic training military uncommon soldiers properly attached cleared masks require assistance exiting chamber since chamber door , window , 's likely hell lot easier exit multi room , damaged house dan sorenson , dod 1066 z1dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu censors read , say n't blame usenet post exotic , distant machines meet exciting , unusual people flame
lvc cbnews cb att com \( larry cipriani \) subject talk branch davidians organization ideology busters , inc keywords kates lines 110 posted bates firearms politics mailing list recently learned kates going boston give talk law school waco situation \( course , set incident started long unhappy conclusion \) , yesterday went hear follows rough summary think heard say , taken exactly actually said kates started saying since n't know fire audience \( happened day \) , would discuss , would concentrate original raid koresh definitely playing full deck \? n't first time leader new , small religious group ridiculed public extreme religious views nearly always fuel hatred mistrust first amendment applies , maybe especially , people like koresh lengthy digression history police organizations us none 1830 , began metropolitan areas police originally armed found crime progress , called local armed citizens help many began carry arms protection despite regulations , eventually laws changed allow carry guns original intent many small police departments , jealous one another competitive , large enough threat liberty , hence plethora organizations ranging postal inspectors coast guard fbi started , agents authority oto carry guns \( , , bureau investigation , police force \) police agencies misused anyone power maintain power batf started tax collection agency , whose primary job raid illegal stills price sugar went high longer found trade longer profitable , many illegal stills disappeared , batf needed something else justify existence , turned activities like phony raids gun stores around time batf 's annual budget review , media batf come place , pre arranged time , bunch cars full batf agents roar door media get great pictures agents entering premises gun dealer suspected keeping books properly media n't invited boring hours agents paperwork , irregularities found , media gets cover agents removing guns premises , ffl chains waco incident happened weeks batf 's budget review opinion staged publicity stunt went bad , batf never thought moment would actually shot , would planned raid differently \( sending 100 agents open ground cover , example \) , would medical personnel hand confirmed years ago warrant koresh 's arrest connection murder charge , local sheriff called phone explained koresh , ok , come pick , sheriff , temporarily confiscating guns could tested koresh later cleared , release , presumably got guns back least time , rational enough approached rationally , behaved reasonable manner batf n't take account , unlike ffl 's audit , koresh actually paranoid , paranoia followers thus stunt looked like real attack , reacted accordingly respect original warrant , unsealed kates giving talk , could comment , except mention batf known double check informants , manage get judge issue warrant say way warrant served , may completely illegal apparently proper way serve warrant knock door announce 're officer warrant thus n't open door evidence , ok break door since hard flush guns toilet , may justification batf breaking way constitutional rights davidians violated invalid warrant , improperly served warrant , davidians may justified close look one original films shows one batf agent may shot accident entering building , first shot fired ! role media could whole lot worse initial position side batf , media began come around view might situation legally armed citizens held bad , possibly illegal attack real cynic might say fbi went clear public opinion beginning change sides , fbi wanted act lost public 's sympathy batf abolished \? police agencies numerous , diverse , inefficient , , etc better inept accidents like , move toward single , large , well organized , well trained , powerful , domestic police force , would eventually even tragic results bates \( bates bbn com \) ps kates giving shorter version talk boston college law school next tuesday , april 27 n't know exact time place , presumably phone call bc law school could elicit information larry cipriani l v cipriani att com
jon atlas mitre org \( j e shum \) subject nature waco gas originator jon atlas nntp posting host atlas mitre org organization mitre corp mclean va lines 32 article cronkite central sun com , dbernard clesun central sun com \( dave bernard \) writes heard network radio news spokesman army saying type cs gas used waco banned military use use also banned draft international agreement use chemical weapons warfare reason given use causes extreme nausea , blindness , disorientation , total irrationality , raging paranoia children would susceptible , show results earlier interesting development especially since feds \( u n \) accused saddam hussein using illegal chemicals citizens well hmmm republican guard army fbi batf \? decide hope much others tempted join cults become involved people like david koresh deterred horrible scenes seen last seven weeks president william jefferson clinton , april 20 , 1993 , press held day branch davidians compound went flames attack fbi atf near waco , texas church u government approved \? connect god damned dots ! ! ! ministry , tv song clinton administration e mail addresses campaign92 org \( mcimail \) provided public service 75300 3115 compuserve com \( compuserve \) jon edward shum \( jon mitre org \) clintonpz aol com \( america online \)
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject women guns cbs organization stratus computer , inc lines 12 distribution na nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com catch tonight 's \( thursday 's \) cbs street stories covers , among others , work aware \( arming women rape endangerment \) , women 's training group massachusetts 'll interviewing spokesperson nancy bittle , well students \( assuming interesting stuff taped makes final cut \) show ugly sunglasses , wave hi cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
f gautjw ccsvax sfasu edu subject janet reno nightline distribution na organization stephen f austin state university lines 48 article finn isi edu , finn isi edu \( greg finn \) writes bothered suggestion child abuse janet reno used several times last night , nightline de facto justification approving raid used justification potentially lethal force attack compound , structural damage fairly called , evidence better quite strong seemed ted kopel 's mind last night reno stated evidence child abuse would say koresh 's ex lawyer inside compound repeatedly told face last night saw plenty happy children playing mothers signs child abuse whatsoever silent children , apparent , reply child abuse always evident true , better evidence could fbi \? point seems difficult see fbi could better evidence seen koresh 's lawyer eye witness lived la seen media authority feeding frenzy accompanied debacle , seen hot button child abuse charge child abuse used authorities justification discard find janet reno 's repeated assertions evidence child abuse rather curious n't warrant issued supposed weapons violation \? certainly nothing child abuse assume therefore new evidence child abuse arose issuance warrant initial assault \? , fail see new evidence gathered , could better site eye witness evidence gregory finn \( 310 \) 822 information sciences institute , marina del rey , ca tv news morning reported local texas authorities reviewed cases 21 children released earlier siege found evidence physical sexual abuse children n't recall good morning america local texas tv station joe gaut super state , really f gautjw ccsvax sfasu edu matter actually happened remember alamo truth government chooses remember waco tell justice wants happen jim garrison , new orleans , la
nagle netcom com \( john nagle \) subject fbi director 's statement waco standoff organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 34 ndallen r node hub org \( nigel allen \) writes fbi director 's statement waco standoff hoped making different statement evening careful planning extensive preparation thought today 's efforts fbi bring branch davidians compound would result peaceful resolution stand least meaningful negotiation instead , faced devastation death however , question plan correct conducted extreme professionalism care applaud restraint shown agents face life threatening gunfire , thank risking lives try end peacefully greatest admiration courage professionalism involved question plan correct \? months get ready , unlimited funds , knowledge threatened mass suicide fire , fire trucks hand \? extreme professionalism care \? understand first screwed raid batf underestimated opposition , happens one fbi first team place , massive resources , ample time planning bringing specialized equipment people necessary still botched fbi director fbi sac overall charge resign , fired incompetence n't blame reno clinton gave fbi clear orders n't go unless without casualties ca n't , wait reasonable orders fbi said could pull tactical solution , could n't john nagle
lilak peaks enet dec com \( rod lilak \) subject anybody permitted 50 bmg rifle \? lines 55 reply lilak dec com organization digital equipment corporation engineering article 93111 cunyvm bitnet , cunyvm bitnet writes path nntpd2 cxo dec com ! pa dec com ! decwrl ! ames ! primate wisc edu ! zaphod mps ohio state edu ! howland reston ans net ! usenet ins cwru edu ! news ysu edu ! psuvm ! cunyvm ! organization city university new york date wednesday , 21 apr 1993 14 17 47 edt cunyvm bitnet message id 93111 cunyvm bitnet newsgroups talk politics guns subject anybody permitted 50 bmg rifle \? lines 26 moment , forget batf incompetence fbi hubris anybody catch rep charles news last night holding 50 bmg cartridge asking anybody allowed one \( presume meant rifle cartridge get buck \) 's guess upcoming anti gun agenda 1 ban heavy caliber rifles \( read 50 bmg \) 2 ban sniper rifles 3 ban stockpiling guns ammunition btw perhaps misinformed congressman seen news wonder finds floor morning michael f gordon cunyvm cuny edu vote shot \( 19th cent republican campaign slogan \) mis informed , knows full well look votes , positions agent redistribution wealth property country , guns personal freedom incompatible obvious world view threat would impose r vs individualism ancient conflict men come close truth , destroyed time one civilization fell another civilization progress toward society privacy savage 's whole existence public , ruled laws tribe civilization process setting man free men ayn rand 's speech ' n't speak company hire
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject dealing cults thoughts organization stratus computer , inc lines 33 distribution world nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article oaf klosters ai mit edu , oaf zurich ai mit edu \( oded feingold \) writes look history rep leo ryan \( staffers \) visited jonestown , request constituents relatives jonestown discovered , even though killed ryan killed , jim jones knew 'd busted way prevent problem would never investigate reports child abuse sexual mistreatment , organizations buying full auto conversion kits shipping hand grenades via ups , chance stumbling across cults would kill , way batf fbi could save people , future cults , ignoring signs line argument provably false texas state officials could investigate child abuse charges could apprehend koresh peaceably could weapons duration koresh convicted note child abuse similar accusations state matters , federal state could handle properly peaceably , furthermore violating one 's constitutional rights process maybe best way batf fbi save people mind fucking business cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject atf burns dividian ranch update organization stratus computer , inc lines 33 distribution usa nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article c5v9fv krt news cso uiuc edu , irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \( brent irvine \) writes article c5uhuo awq usenet ucs indiana edu wwarf silver ucs indiana edu \( wayne j warf \) writes article nate 1485 735408842 psygate psych indiana edu nate psygate psych indiana edu \( nathan engle \) writes yeah , information trickles funny works funny , yeah , funny n't wait fbi spokesdroid latest reversal facts proclaiming bd 's burned death wo n't believe anything government says , press reliable according logic , base statements \? wild speculation laced healthy dose paranoia \? funny , brent , far heard two versions facts 1 \) government says includes government says two survivors said 2 \) koresh 's lawyer \( actually inside compound \) says , including says survivors said strange , seem disagree important particulars anyone actually seen news reports survivors speaking first hand , feel free ot pitch may missed money story sound hell lot like case 2 , like case 1 cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
gt6511a prism gatech edu \( cochrane , james shapleigh \) subject impeach clinton , reno organization georgia institute technology lines 17 simple points leadership responsible subordinates fail law deaths occur result commision crime felony whoever dies incident , whoever committed crime establishing incident murder one criminals charged murder deaths police stray rounds someone dying heart attack also considered murder one , situation caused crime james cochrane danger , doubt , run space gt6511a prism gatech edu circles , scream shout rent
subject atf burns dividian ranch update supersedes 93112 cmuvm bitnet 34aej7d cmuvm bitnet lines 8 article hp col col hp com , dduff col hp com \( dave duff \) says nut case panics ! ! ! ! realizes he's made complete fool front thousands netters ! ! ! ! backs away earlier rash statements ! ! ! ! god mercy ! ! ! ! love clown , even school yard one
scasburn magnus acs ohio state edu \( steven casburn \) subject flames net flames waco nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university distribution usa lines 25 article goa usenet ucs indiana edu wwarf silver ucs indiana edu \( wa j warf \) writes article c5v9fv krt news cso uiuc edu irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \( brent irvin e \) writes wo n't believe anything government says , press reliable according logic , base statements \? wild speculation laced healthy dose paranoia \? moron illiterate \? oh , forgot , 're guy n't know microwave oven need electricity , never mind 're guy n't know illiterate people ca n't write coherent sentences make superior somehow \? steve steve casburn \( scasburn magnus acs ohio state edu \) across page across ages moving hand history kinder eye see us dream mark king
34aej7d cmuvm bitnet subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! 1993apr20 143255 12711 mcs kent edu 4t transfer stratus com 1993apr21 053035 29591 mcs kent edu lines 21 article 1993apr21 053035 29591 mcs kent edu , mhamilto nimitz mcs kent edu \( lawnmowerman \) says deleted lives cause therefore davids fault atf 's gave 50 51 days get , 50 days many many rest u however sad hear death child unlike sick bastard supposedly matthew r hamilton mhamilto mcs kent edu k cs physics major ksuvxb kent edu \( lawnmowerman \) kent state university ksuvxb kent edu tragically ironic post like originate kent state apparently lessons history ignored
viking iastate edu \( dan sorenson \) subject dayton gun buy back \( boston gun buy back \) organization iowa state university , ames ia lines 26 1993apr21 mtu edu cescript mtu edu \( charles scripter \) writes something similar pro gun people \? example , pay 100 anyone lawfully protects life firearm \? sounds bit tacky , hey , whatever works gun buy back charity \? get sponsors fund purchase used firearms , check , give sell low price poor persons wishing firearms \) sell low price poor people immediately \? nra educational organization , , would shame pay money new guns cheap guns would allow lot money thus saved used opening classes mention nra trains boys blue 've got media rock hard place city pays 50 per gun reduce crime nra pay 50 per gun provide training guns police citizens classes expanded money saved dan sorenson , dod 1066 z1dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu censors read , say n't blame usenet post exotic , distant machines meet exciting , unusual people flame
viking iastate edu \( dan sorenson \) subject waco burning organization iowa state university , ames ia lines 27 v111qheg ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( p vasilion \) writes imagine happens magazine explodes \? generally ship sinks \( sorry , 's picture uss iowa next desk \) bullets go flying every imho , gunshot wounds actually caused magazines went first , unless round little threat penetration bullet , brass matter unless expanding gas held enclosed space get nice pop enough threat even firefighters worry finally , 's rather simple tell person shot prior burned crisp see , time ammunition went people quite dead look blood around wound , particularly however , 's contention makes little difference whether died exploding ammunition fire feds seem shared responsibility dan sorenson , dod 1066 z1dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu censors read , say n't blame usenet post exotic , distant machines meet exciting , unusual people flame
kennejs cs okstate edu \( kennedy james scot \) subject waco survivors 1715 19 april organization oklahoma state university , computer science , stillwater lines 174 article c5segz mwr dscomsa desy de , hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) article apm hpopdlau pwd hp com , apm hpopdlau pwd hp com \( andrew merritt \) writes path dscomsa ! dxcern ! mcsun ! uknet ! pipex ! uunet ! think com ! sdd hp com ! hpscit sc hp com ! apm apm hpopdlau pwd hp com \( andrew merritt \) article 1993apr19 1 vms ocom okstate edu chorley vms ocom okstate edu writes stuff british cult members deleted exactly trying say \? fire engines within mile compound \? gun loonies firing vehicles 50mm range 3000 meters using 50 caliber ammunition 50mm ammo 50mm would shell size would larger lot cannon shells snipers could screened people trying put fire besides , ranch house \( fort apocalypse house despite fbi atf says \) fire gun loonies could n't hardly shooting fire men house flames fbi atf n't excuse fire engines put blaze bastards waited fire well way called fire department waco n't even tell fire department standby sincerely hope fbi , atf , attorney general janet reno , others involved fiasco get punishment deserve someone pay needless , tragic waste human life sadly , evil probably never face justice media government whitewash incident chalk solely david koresh 's fault still , american people probably believe next question problem course laws allow bunch raving nutters collect huge stack arms first place problem problem government becoming tyrannical every day people decide guns live one place together hand , bds posession explosives illegal guns government right search compound , allegations bds posession illegal weapons n't proven yet , i'm going conclude bds broke laws david koresh accused abusing children , crime presence atf ca n't justified atf supposed deal firearms , tobacco , alcohol violations atf agents basically cigarette cops stay kinds law enforcement actions jurisdiction better yet , imo sequence events meant really option attempt sort breakthrough via intervention fbi stomach could mounted commando type raid attempted save children shooting adults sounds like something ss would human life children adults alike treated respect even heavily armed religious wackos david koresh 's lawyer seemed think everyone would come peacefully sooner later fbi atf nothing time hands ! escalate situation cause senseless tragedy \? job protect public save lives kill people crying loud really win situation koresh plenty opportunity give stand trial murder 4 atf officers instead ordered murder children n't sure read newspaper today one cult members said one tanks went wall knocked lantern caused ranch house caught fire cult member also said david koresh intentions committing mass suicide david koresh 's lawyer also confirms therefore , true means fbi atf murdered everyone house ! even true , fbi atf still n't get hook waited damn long time call waco fire department perhaps wanted people die order reject word fbi batf neccessary beleive words man murdered 17 children ordered suicide murder 80 followers according account given batf attempted serve warrant upon koresh ranch met gunfire deliberate attempt murder koresh gun supporter claim batf started shooting simply stand aft gone start shooting would gone heavier grade weaponry standard issue handguns practical purposes unarmed , b followers automatic weapons 're wrong several accounts atf agents adequately armed , ar , shotguns agents armed automatic pistols atf 's initial claim later retracted agents underarmed simply ludicrous b seige could allowed go indefinitely b quite capable commiting mass suicide murdering children time commando assault likely action could achieved objective , would risky , orders harder iranian embassy seige airplanes embassies designed defense attack ranch apocalypse 6 terrorists far easier without casualties 80 allowing siege go option either , besides serious risk koresh would proclaim armageddon moment question difficulties keeping team standby prolonged period longer siege went mentally prepared koresh followers would prolonged siege rather go prematurely mistake probably go soon think better way getting children \? 100 certain way \? people want gun control must obviously discount entire government story simply rationalisation enough simply dismiss government incompetent would require come solution instead come government conspiracy theory whereby government decided set murder 80 people set sort scare alow get gun control legislation gun control n't issue sick little monkeys washington try use waco incident reason ban guns demonstrated f ed concerns much new gun control legislation government seems able get away like waco becoming callous people 's rights law greatly disturb well conspiracy theory assumes batf deliberately got 4 agents killed fbi etc actually enjoy sitting middle texas shot religious nutters still conspiracy theory comforting , allows pretend waco proves nothing except incompetent government resolving hostage crisis govt world ever faced comparable situation , quite probably manner could peacefully resolved blame rest fbi , rests fact koresh allowed get far , particular person tipped b advance murder 4 atf agents 17 children conscience large number people us predict end society preach salvation armed security fact people pose threat society first place next waco may religious nutters political movement splinter group klux klan taking black area example holding several hundred children hostage possible solution situations work prevent arising government world faced situation government allowed high power weaponry become avaliable little hitler would messiah set dictator little empire phill hallam baker scott kennedy , brewer patriot david koresh cheap thug interprets bible barrel gun atf spokesman atf cheap thug interprets constitution barrel gun
johnm karnak lonestar org \( john \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization capitalist , inc lines 23 nntp posting host karnak cox smu edu keywords nata thing ! ! mhamilto nimitz mcs kent edu \( lawnmowerman \) writes article 93109 13404334aej7d cmuvm bitnet , 34aej7d cmuvm bitnet writes genocidal mass slaughter innocent people besides nine survivors burn unit local hospital reported david one towers shit hit fan besides , majority children children supposed father , makes bastard children sacraligious \( sp \) also someone told david followers ca n't heat stay kitchen ! ! \( pun intended \) guess need reminded things ! ever heard first amendment \? guess n't crime religous \( know said sacraligious , n't place judge religion \) zealot country remember freedom religion country ! guess selective respect ! bastard children children ! condone deaths \? pray lack soul ! john b , jr gun control able hit target ! southwestern blvd 1103 , dallas , tx voicemail 214 750 karnak ! johnm internet johnm karnak lonestar org
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject clinton joins list genocidal socialist leaders organization stratus computer , inc lines 52 distribution world nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article charnel ecst csuchico edu , nomad ecst csuchico edu \( michael larish \) writes clinton responsible \? law enforcement action granted , nationally covered incident clinton outcome fred think clinton conceived \? think clinton ordered \? think clinton aware went \? think clinton aware went \? course n't \? think clinton people certain extent believed batf crap child abuse stockpiling evil semi automatic weapons \? yes think clinton ever questioned federal jurisdiction matter \? think clinton ever considered civil rights victims \? rest , wo n't argue whether batf handled initial confrontation well \( \) day 2 , problem way operation handled decisions made us suspect unlawful mistakes made day 1 made government 's end makes days 2 51 nothing macho alternative delivering apology day 51 , long fbi batf n't intentionally set fire , certainly tragic , majority americans \( according recent poll \) problems operation gives good goddamn bullshit opinion poll americans \? americans swallow government line 're fed 're stupid , 's line ever hear americans thought staff mcmaster \( \? \) school guilty , guilty , guilty woops , turns n't americans thought black slaves n't human beings woops , wrong americans thought saddam hussein antichrist oh dear , special friend american government two years previously know , maybe truth determined majority vote half informed public fact , americans \( according poll \) think resolved sooner 're interrupting cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
\( \) subject bd 's 're paranoid freaks organization trinity college , hartford , ct lines 27 freed om religion absolutely nothing building small arsenal grooming 10 year old children wife 'll come soon finish manuscript seven seals oh , ok , david agree koresh much victim perpetrator grew inside cult , engaged power struggle supporters helped inflate ego n't change fact loose fucking cannon shitload serious weapons banging thirteen year olds twisting little minds move fuck helicoptor thermal imaging compound afternoon detected three fires erupting almost simultaneously cs canisters specially modified abrams stuff chance starting fire kerosene lamps \? maybe one , three fires way koresh n't talking ass expected happen maybe wanted look like murder 50 days think coming whole time n't even put children buried bus underground bunker cs seige put tower die fuck big brother paranoid freaks good thing come one less group attract members society joe kusmierczak mail trincoll edu
intel com \( mark roberts \) subject fyi batf reply waco organization intel corporation aloha , oregon lines 25 article 1993apr20 ke4zv uucp gary ke4zv uucp \( gary coffman \) writes article netcom com nagle netcom com \( john nagle \) writes san francisco examiner reports clinton issued instructions federal law enforcement may kill injure anyone resolve waco situation 've built fence around compound , seriously considering building fence prison camp levels , pulling manpower , waiting however many months takes well either examiner wrong \( usual \) clinton lied perhaps david koresh n't listen well \? \? mistakes made mean president lied gary gary coffman ke4zv make , gatech ! wa4mei ! ke4zv ! gary destructive testing systems break uunet ! rsiatl ! ke4zv ! gary 534 shannon way guaranteed ! emory ! kd4nc ! ke4zv ! gary lawrenceville , ga 30244 mark
cash convex com \( peter cash \) subject nature waco gas nntp posting host zeppelin convex com organization x disclaimer message written user convex computer corp opinions expressed user necessarily convex lines 29 article cronkite central sun com dbernard clesun central sun com writes heard network radio news spokesman army saying type cs gas used waco banned military use use also banned reason given use causes extreme nausea , blindness , disorientation , total irrationality , raging paranoia children would susceptible , show results earlier indeed talking cs , quite accurate cs tear gas albeit worst kind n't nausea gas , n't direct cns effects however , 's quite bad much worse cn gas briefly exposed \( engagement berkeley circa 1968 8 \) 's kind thing forget seems moisture activated made eyes sting water , attacked breathing passages lungs breathing painful , entire face felt fire effects persisted hours exposure , days afterwards exposed dense concentration stuff closed space several hours , doubt whether could find exit indeed , ca n't imagine living die welt ist alles , ist peter cash \( apologies ludwig wittgenstein \) cash convex com
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject congress review atf 's status organization stratus computer , inc lines 19 distribution usa nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com keywords upi article cbnews cb att com , lvc cbnews cb att com \( larry cipriani \) writes washington \( upi \) part investigation deadly confrontation texas cult , congress consider whether bureau alcohol , tobacco firearms moved treasury department justice department , senators said wednesday idea considered violent fatal events beginning end agency 's confrontation branch davidian cult course smell , simply transfer contents plant hillary ! government smells fresh ! cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
garrod dynamo ecn purdue edu \( david garrod \) subject waco burning organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 43 article dscomsa desy de , hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) writes koresh responsible murderer goes rampage murderer responsible police may bear responsiblity failing stop primary responsibility murderer koresh go rampage \? saw unnecessary , unprovoked massive attack feb 28th probably even illegal action atf , certainly way proportion anything reasonable yet , according pole taken yesterday , 95 people believe government forces acted appropriately don`t believe reno president guilt ordering allowing attack suppose also believed things like would present 5 year plan balance budget don`t need lead tax increase starts middle class tax cut bills ready day 100 day period productive modern history ask congress line item veto lift social security earnings test personally prefer disbelieve government prove right , rather way around way better 50 chance right first guess ! read constitution sometime , supposed protect citizens rights sick abuse government power tom jefferson said government , , shall drawn washington centre power , render powerless checks provided one government another become venal oppressive government separated \( 1821 \)
r1328 vmcms csuohio edu subject gun buy back organization csu lines 95 article 1993apr22 rti rti org jbs rti rti org writes article r1328 vmcms csuohio edu r1328 vmcms csuohio edu writes gun buyback programs hopefully impact accidental shootings \( especially youths \) , domestic disputes gun available heat emotion anger , maybe keep guns stolen later used street level crime gives idea gun buyback programs impact things \? evidence , please \? please n't saying joe making point tha evidence effect gun buyback programs hopefully effect may prevent injuries deaths one types common incidents 're research associate urban child research , perhaps comment us ratio accidental gun death rate rate accidental death single causes \? follow perhaps sort justification amount effort anti gunners spend trying convince country accidental gun related death among children u serious problem firearms fifth leading cause unintentional deaths among children ages 14 n't understand ratio accidental deaths important guns n't kill many children car accidents difference severity 1 , 000 deaths 10 , 000 deaths \? trying use accidental gun related deaths among children justification gun control needs convinced accidental gun deaths children serious problem \? assumed humane person would concerned 10 year old got hold parents gun bedroom drawer accidently blew away one friends anything , gun buyback programs symbolic offerings community sense , think might little good please explain think symbolic offerings good point , gun buyback programs almost always run police departments might \( stress might \) little \( stress little \) good giving people impression police attempting respond interpersonal gun violence unique way overall , thought made clear think gun buyback programs useful know vast majority guns used youths brought school youths daily basis \( 135 , 000 youths \) obtained easily quickly , personal friend , often borrowed parent without knowledge suggest go back look wherever saw statistics suspect 'll find look carefully 135 , 000 number students estimated carried weapon \( necessarily gun \) school least past year , number students carry gun school daily well joe , suggest talk center prevent handgun violence centers disease control look carefully see greatly underestimate presence guns lives youths cphv reports 135 , 000 youth bring guns school daily 400 , 000 bring guns school least year cdc estimates 1 0f 25 high school students carried gun school least 1990 cdc also says 1 2 million elementary aged , latch key children \( kids come home school empty house \) , access guns home california schools reported 200 increase student gun 1986 1990 , 40 increase 1988 1990 florida reported 61 percent increase gun incidents schools 1986 87 amd 1987 88 statistics thus willing follow man claimed messiah \( got news folks , big cheese crazy planet presently , would carrying gun holding children danger \) holding kids \? time reality check , son kids children people inside believed forces evil outside waiting kill would send children door believed \? okay , maybe worded wrong dad meant put children situation \( fortified compound \) harm could come act messiah opinion i'm saying koresh control children directly , would hope whatever messiah would let innocent children die claimed messiah people followed , tell parents free children instead letting burn alive \? thanks reality check joe , real rodney
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject waco burning organization stratus computer , inc lines 23 distribution world nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article dscomsa desy de , hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) writes koresh responsible murderer goes rampage murderer responsible ram page , n move wildly violently course , violent action assaulted , phill \? remember exactly side came looking trouble \? police may bear responsiblity failing stop primary responsibility murderer turns fire caused tank knocking coleman lantern , 'll support punishing responsible people , phill \? find find different reason hang koresh \? cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
nl oracle com \( jason durbin \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization oracle europe lines 24 nntp posting host article sugar neosoft com , jpsb neosoft com \( jim shirreffs \) writes fbi started fire , didn`t people flee burning building \? james dusek james , could determined stay together compound matter happened perhaps fire accidental , db simply refused leave died fighting fire \? knows wait see find hard believe would agree burn ! horrible way go jim shirreffs seem recall graphic news file buddhist monks setting fire streets saigon yes , horrible way go , apparently horrible someone enough religious conviction might able carry , since 've discovered bullet wounds couple bodies compound , possiblity power self also power take ones less constitutional , maybe fbi ran fire raging , executed two , ran jason durbin oracle europe
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject photographers removed compound organization stratus computer , inc lines 44 distribution na nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article news udel edu , roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) writes two news photographers found compound earlier morning without permission explained press corps dangerous unknown photographer turning around long lens camera could mistaken someone dangerous texas ranger surveying site \( ! \) words , nice camera got would shame ta happen two photographers said currently jail also emphasized survey crime scene point crucial press could allowed interfere press allowed bodies removed site completely surveyed evidence court case opinions find disturbing good keep thinking critically believe koresh largely responsible ending standoff manner last 51 days patient opportunity , find secrecy surrounding aftermath damaging position realize secrecy actually less damaging alternative \? basing opinions info gathered various media filtered common sense consideration , imho , opinion subject change information made available please also note means endorse agree many conspiracy type theories read groups make bite size pieces 'll wait cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject rewording second amendment \( ideas \) organization stratus computer , inc lines 17 distribution world nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article sugar neosoft com , neosoft com \( randy \) writes perhaps little track discussion rewording 2nd amendment specifically refers right bear arms bear arms key words , \? simplistic say ca n't pick \( ie bear \) , firearm restricted without constitution firearm \? let 's even consider long knives \( swords \) , also common militia weapons 18th century , , anything , often restricted heavily firearms whatever sense gun control makes , knife control makes even less cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
kdw icd ab com \( kenneth whitehead \) subject holocaust revisited nntp posting host sora icd ab com organization allen bradley company , inc lines 51 dct ac uk \( john bell \) scotland , one england 's last remaining colonies real \? people dumb enough give money possessions guy says 's jesus deserve get people dumb enough believe klinton moderate deserve get 's real laugh hear try justify massacre concerned tax money spent \( wasting money keeping texans alive \? hell let 's spend import aids treat taxpayer expense p \) anyway , killed feds \? feds killed 90 civilians ran patience , use phrase feds n't attacked , 'd home eating dinner families tonight bad , started maybe next time 'll think twice 's worth 4 's goddam hero nobody says victim left wing government , violated pledge protect uphold constitution , run amok n't worry , though , 're gonna take back \( hey , i'm white guy , would ok quoted malcolm x , said means necessary \? nah , never mind legally 's dead an' i'm happy ! ! ! ! ! , 're brainless f cking go beat soccer fans ignorance bliss , stupid smile face people die hope badger \( n't expect care , folks bastards never like idea americans means defend would n't stand governments , sent packing back little island tails legs twice \) remember bad boy , gonna heard jfk shot gonna remember battle waco \? come ken whitehead \( kdw odin icd ab com \)
spl szechuan ucsd edu \( steve lamont \) subject message mr president know happened \? organization university calif , san diego microscopy imaging resource lines 26 nntp posting host szechuan ucsd edu article usenet ins cwru edu aj359 cleveland freenet edu \( christopher c morton \) writes previous article , spl pitstop ucsd edu \( steve lamont \) says zog wants think legitimate possessor nuclear weapons unconstitutional ! much right kilogram two nice weapons grade plutonium cruddy little pointy headed liberal los alamos ah yes , yet another anti semite anti gunner tpg makes ass satire n mf l mf , fr l , , fr \( \) full plate , medley , fr fem akin l enough sad \( \) 1 literary work holding human vices follies ridicule scorn 2 wit , irony , sarcasm used expose discredit vice folly see wit spl steve lamont , sciviguy \( 619 \) 534 7968 spl szechuan ucsd edu san diego microscopy imaging resource uc san diego la jolla , ca 92093 0608 car car , bumper strip seen 805
seth adam eliot se08 andrew cmu edu subject dayton gun buy back \( boston gun buy back \) organization doctoral student , materials science engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 22 nntp posting host po5 andrew cmu edu reply cbnews cb att com excerpts netnews talk politics guns 21 apr 93 dayton gun buy back \( larry cipriani cbnews cb something similar pro gun people \? example , pay 100 anyone lawfully protects life firearm \? sounds bit tacky , hey , whatever works pro gun people take used pot metal guns sale values less 50 00 turn , thus making profit gun grabbers expense seth unlike cats dogs never scratch wash become sad try figure wrong dave barry seth eliot dept material science engineering carnegie mellon univerity , pittsburgh , pa arpa eliot cmu edu se08 andrew cmu edu bitnet se08 andrew
seth adam eliot se08 andrew cmu edu subject senate house addresses organization doctoral student , materials science engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 27 distribution usa nntp posting host po4 andrew cmu edu reply 1993apr21 ccsvax sfasu edu article dad da vinci uswc uswest com , august uswc would someone please post generic addresses congress senate write letters \? unites states senate washington , c house representatives washington , c white house washington , c seth unlike cats dogs never scratch wash become sad try figure wrong dave barry seth eliot dept material science engineering carnegie mellon univerity , pittsburgh , pa arpa eliot cmu edu se08 andrew cmu edu bitnet se08 andrew
jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) subject clinton joins list genocidal socialist leaders organization hand held products , inc lines 87 distribution world nntp posting host dale handheld com article r1328 vmcms csuohio edu r1328 vmcms csuohio edu writes article rdt usenet ins cwru edu bu008 cleveland freenet edu \( brandon ray \) writes previous article , nomad ecst csuchico edu \( michael larish \) says article btr btr com michaelh public btr com \( michael hahn michaelh btr com \) writes partial list excellent socialist tolls 've taken unpopular religious ethnic social groups mao tse tung millions killed j stalin millions killed hitler millions killed pol pot 100 , killed \? w j clinton 100 killed , relax 's hundred days people rather amusing perverse sort way take tragic unpleasant situation feel terrible , assign blame anybody everybody without link incident simply n't fit extremely narrow definition good clinton responsible \? law enforcement action granted , nationally covered incident clinton outcome fred perhaps 've rock last days \? batf fbi federal agencies clinton admitted front news cameras janet reno \( future attorney general \) gave full briefing planned , gave go ahead maybe , possibly , makes bit responsible \? fbi , cia , batf , etc federal agencies , correct think visible clear chain command prez , agencies inform reno informs clinton , etc naive agencies operate distinct seperate entities ultimate accountability prez , make moves , tell prez , says , knew along may seem right , may fit idealistic need see structured chain command leading white house , thats way , , composed 3 4 people talk regular basis , lunch , maybe golf together agree , fbi , batf messed i'm sure stormed compound way , witnesses religious minority country protestantism minority religion world bds cult definitions history cults say persecute religious ethnic enclave koresh said messiah raised baptist , although practice religion think big guy upstairs digging , , right wing morons associated religion anyway , messiah taught would carrying gun , let alone stockpiling weapons doubt batf reports want , david koresh poor soul persecuted information coming u government keep public opinion side , believe things former cult members said true anyway , another excuse try blame president clinton something people attempt political motives ashamed ones keeping country reaching full potential seem make two points one ultimately federal agencies mention , since koresh apparently different view point baptist upbringing , worthy protection religious persecution messiah , christ within us \? must comforting belong government approved religion baptists cult , two , btw , definitions dictionary cult jim jmd handheld com i'm always rethinking 's never day n't rethought ca n't bill clinton 6 april 93 american , englishman , foreign troop landed country , never would lay arms , never never never ! william pitt , earl chatham 1708 1778 18 nov 1777
pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) subject waco willie cook \( fbi director 's statement \) organization totally unorganized lines 108 note local tx groups trimmed newsgroups line article geraldo cc utexas edu nash utexas edu \( donald l nash \) writes article transfer stratus com , cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) writes , right first time law enforcement agencies keep opinions mind breaking assaulting house ok , let correct unfortunate choice words hope law enforcement agencies keep attitude mind next time wife gang raped bunch juvenile , drug dealing thugs jogging park , strike \( etc \) batf came horse trailers , 100 men , ninja uniforms , machine guns , stun grenades , used koresh could even look warrant koresh fought back , people died key part koresh fought back big mistake police decide exert authority , n't fight back unless want people get hurt cease resistance signal submission authority cops boss subject concept defense illegal action color law longer government people people , government people biggest guns idea court fine , one get court one piece korash good reason think going get chance \( see \) n't beat kill people , spite actions bad apples quit resisting , quit hitting perhaps batf react threat posed koresh perhaps use much force ok , fine i'm willing concede point sufficient proof produced \( admit evidence indicate \) however , resisting batf worst thing koresh could done n't resisted , good chance one would hurt remeber , using stun grenades , anti personnel grenades bds violation rember , korash n't get sort , serenely typing keyboard heard kind explosives go , saw attacked overt action \( yet \) could say 'oh , ok , stun anymore could slammed door point proceeded repel attackers felt genuine fear life know would fear life point ever shot \? clear logically could think , pressure , might 1 2 seconds evaluate going \? , would first time intended bring suspect horizontally know , informed someone saying something like hey , guy , batf coming like , mean waste according latest news , released warrant \( told \) said reason ww iii raid korash 's group spent around 200 , 000 00 firearms related stuff \( undetermined period \) , even assuming figure n't calculated like feds drug , 90 people , n't really much \( priced decent guns lately \? \) hell , think person right probably much one individual , mostly machineguns ! ! ! sure , avid collector , unless new law passed , illegal , indication anything illegal , lot guns also note warrant nothing say machine guns , justification cowboy raid , gone bad anti gun media hype , support clinton 's push disarming unconnected citizen effective defensive weapons \? administration one thing mind control people control whether gun control , clinton cripple chip , national smart id cards , boils people control say 1984 , 10 years late \? knew could \) laws , would released happened turned batf used much force , bds would grounds law suit federal charges civil rights violations \( sounds lot like la , huh \? n't take wrong , i'm commenting one way rodney king case \) 's wanted got tipped batf way , rather adopting non violent , non threatening posture batf , decided fight batf knew bds expecting \( via 60 minutes report \) decided big , bad , would bds expense , nice media show anyway turned shit , fbi taking manage things , see turned shit , clinton says 'i taking full responsibility means take repercussions goes wrong bet nobody pays serious repercussions meaning media pr , means corner average joe schmoe figure clinton , reno , fbi batf , immune say whitewash \? 've said enough issue i'm probably going convince folks 're certainly going convince 've got work afraid government land free decide acceptable , get even afraid especially decide , reason , dislike longer feel need confine cowboy tactics , pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc 1 207 \( pat myrto \) seattle , wa else fails , try ! uunet ! pilchuck ! rwing ! pat wisdom two things infinite universe human stupidity , sure former albert einstien
mlh austin ibm com \( sewer snake \) subject batf acronym originator mlh eddy austin ibm com reply mlh austin ibm com organization ibm austin lines 6 b urn f
pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization totally unorganized lines 32 article c5sv88 hjy news cso uiuc edu irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \( brent irvine \) writes article 1r1j3n 4t transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) writes article 1r19tp 5em bigboote wpi edu , mfrhein wpi wpi edu \( michael frederick rhein \) writes napalm , let wood stove inside ignite someone else pointed , would stove use warm day texas eat food cold \? ever hear electric ovens microwaves \? popular electric stoves outside metro areas especially power cut weeks end generators doubt fuel , would wood stoves kerosene \( maybe \) alleged tanks pushing walls knocked , starting fire remember , fbi bugs even used \( illegally \) eavesdrop private conversations lawyers suicide order given would known time feds concerned would emergency equipment ready hour later , leaving water turned , could turned back n't wanna scores settle pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc 1 207 \( pat myrto \) seattle , wa else fails , try ! uunet ! pilchuck ! rwing ! pat wisdom two things infinite universe human stupidity , sure former albert einstien
wwarf silver ucs indiana edu \( wayne j warf \) subject flames net flames waco nntp posting host silver ucs indiana edu organization indiana university distribution usa lines 34 article 1993apr22 magnus acs ohio state edu scasburn magnus acs ohio state edu \( steven casburn \) writes article goa usenet ucs indiana edu wwarf silver ucs indiana edu \( wa j warf \) writes article c5v9fv krt news cso uiuc edu irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \( brent irvin e \) writes wo n't believe anything government says , press reliable according logic , base statements \? wild speculation laced healthy dose paranoia \? moron illiterate \? oh , forgot , 're guy n't know microwave oven need electricity , never mind 're guy n't know illiterate people ca n't write coherent sentences make superior somehow \? oh god , made typo used word god come burn house , must deserve steve casburn \( scasburn magnus acs ohio state edu \) across page across ages moving hand history kinder eye see us dream mark king wayne j warf wwarf ucs indiana edu speak clinton gore cia fbi dea assassinate bomb wod bor atf irs resist nsa christian god satan apocalypse zog nazi socialist communist explosive fundamentalist revolution nsc federal reserve constitution gold fema
microsoft com \( chip switzer \) subject atf burns dividian ranch update organization microsoft corp distribution usa lines 26 article larry peak psl nmsu edu larry peak psl nmsu edu wrote 21 apr 93 11 28 57 0800 , yodicet gtewd mtv gtegsc com said ah yes , see liberal weenies come woodwork defend burning children probably drooled watching tv coverage probably like nazi germany , well oh yeah , atf fbi claims , according media , survivors number seems vary minute minute yodicet yodicet yodicet hmm n't say , appears n't well , think 's something mean post responded \( \) pretty much speak chip switzer witty saying proves nothing microsoft com voltaire
meyers leonardo rtp dg com \( bill meyers \) subject h r 711 distribution usa organization n lines 17 article cbnews cb att com lvc cbnews cb att com \( larry cipriani \) writes posting text h r 711 amend title 18 , united states code , ensure handguns available persons demonstrated knowledge skill safe use , maintenance , storage 8 \( 1 \) \( 1 \) \( \) individual licensed 9 section may possess handgun 10 date final regulations prescribed pursuant para 11 graph \( 2 \) unless individual issued handgun 12 permit paragraph \( 2 \) note licensing bill , pretending training bill gridlock , mechanism ever succeed slowing growth rate big government
mac cis ksu edu \( myron \) subject medical examiner says evidence bullet wounds either way organization kansas state university lines 20 nntp posting host depot cis ksu edu dhartung chinet chi il us \( dan hartung \) writes apparently needing clarify comments thursday , dr nizam \( spelling \? \) , medical examiner tarrant county , texas , authority waco deaths , stated since autopsies performed , evidence bullet wounds , evidence bullet wounds janet reno also stated never told bullet wounds anyone justice department news radio station \( lawrence , ks \) 6 15 monday morning , heard someone nasal sounding voice \( supposedly waco coroner \? \) claim found two persons killed single shot forehead myron preserve freedoms using four boxes soap , ballot , jury , cartridge myron , phd ee assoc professor \( 913 \) 539 home internet mac cis ksu edu \( 129 130 10 5 \) 532 work , 532 7353 fax uucp rutgers ! depot ! mac packet bbs ks usa
organization arizona state university shooting club asu asuacad bitnet subject children firearm , etc injury articles wanted lines 18 one asu students needs data copy article regarding accidents , injury death children \( articles state age limits children \) relating firearms sociology report copy long edgar suter , article ca n't find paul blackman \( nra \) articles \( sections thereof \) deal comparisons time , locations , age groups , reasons accidents , injury death , percentages would welcome please send node thanks advance ! tom
jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) subject gun buy back organization hand held products , inc lines 122 distribution world nntp posting host dale handheld com article r1328 vmcms csuohio edu r1328 vmcms csuohio edu writes article 1993apr22 rti rti org jbs rti rti org writes article r1328 vmcms csuohio edu r1328 vmcms csuohio edu writes gun buyback programs hopefully impact accidental shootings \( especially youths \) , domestic disputes gun available heat emotion anger , maybe keep guns stolen later used street level crime gives idea gun buyback programs impact things \? evidence , please \? please n't saying joe making point tha evidence effect gun buyback programs hopefully effect may prevent injuries deaths one types common incidents 're research associate urban child research , perhaps comment us ratio accidental gun death rate rate accidental death single causes \? follow perhaps sort justification amount effort anti gunners spend trying convince country accidental gun related death among children u serious problem firearms fifth leading cause unintentional deaths among children ages 14 n't understand ratio accidental deaths important guns n't kill many children car accidents difference severity 1 , 000 deaths 10 , 000 deaths \? trying use accidental gun related deaths among children justification gun control needs convinced accidental gun deaths children serious problem \? assumed humane person would concerned 10 year old got hold parents gun bedroom drawer accidently blew away one friends death serious wanna discuss match control \? firearms related unintentional deaths among children ages 14 fault one negligent persons , gun anything , gun buyback programs symbolic offerings community sense , think might little good please explain think symbolic offerings good point , gun buyback programs almost always run police departments might \( stress might \) little \( stress little \) good giving people impression police attempting respond interpersonal gun violence unique way overall , thought made clear think gun buyback programs useful providing false hope , , intent \? know vast majority guns used youths brought school youths daily basis \( 135 , 000 youths \) obtained easily quickly , personal friend , often borrowed parent without knowledge suggest go back look wherever saw statistics suspect 'll find look carefully 135 , 000 number students estimated carried weapon \( necessarily gun \) school least past year , number students carry gun school daily well joe , suggest talk center prevent handgun violence centers disease control look carefully see greatly underestimate presence guns lives youths cphv reports 135 , 000 youth bring guns school daily 400 , 000 bring guns school least year cdc estimates 1 0f 25 high school students carried gun school least 1990 cdc also says 1 2 million elementary aged , latch key children \( kids come home school empty house \) , access guns home california schools reported 200 increase student gun 1986 1990 , 40 increase 1988 1990 florida reported 61 percent increase gun incidents schools 1986 87 amd 1987 88 statistics 200 increase california schools , eh \? gun control working fine , ! thus willing follow man claimed messiah \( got news folks , big cheese crazy planet presently , would carrying gun holding children danger \) holding kids \? time reality check , son kids children people inside believed forces evil outside waiting kill would send children door believed \? okay , maybe worded wrong dad meant put children situation \( fortified compound \) harm could come act messiah opinion i'm saying koresh control children directly , would hope whatever messiah would let innocent children die claimed messiah people followed , tell parents free children instead letting burn alive \? thanks reality check joe , real religion different make wrong \? even assuming koresh actually made decision , verdict still rodney jim jmd handheld com i'm always rethinking 's never day n't rethought ca n't bill clinton 6 april 93 american , englishman , foreign troop landed country , never would lay arms , never never never ! william pitt , earl chatham 1708 1778 18 nov 1777
jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) subject bd 's 're paranoid freaks organization hand held products , inc lines 45 distribution world nntp posting host dale handheld com article 1993apr22 starbase trincoll edu \( \) writes freed om religion absolutely nothing building small arsenal grooming 10 year old children wife 'll come soon finish manuscript seven seals oh , ok , david agree koresh much victim perpetrator grew inside cult , engaged power struggle supporters helped inflate ego n't change fact loose fucking cannon shitload serious weapons banging thirteen year olds twisting little minds move fuck helicoptor thermal imaging compound afternoon detected three fires erupting almost simultaneously cs canisters specially modified abrams stuff chance starting fire kerosene lamps \? maybe one , three fires way koresh n't talking ass expected happen maybe wanted look like murder 50 days think coming whole time n't even put children buried bus underground bunker cs seige put tower die fuck big brother paranoid freaks good thing come one less group attract members society joe kusmierczak mail trincoll edu made mind waco , sure seems group devoted government following fanatics willing believe whatever government wants tell , without shred doubt , thought thier sure get shrill whenever belief structure shaken kinda reminds bds , n't \? jim jmd handheld com i'm always rethinking 's never day n't rethought ca n't bill clinton 6 april 93 american , englishman , foreign troop landed country , never would lay arms , never never never ! william pitt , earl chatham 1708 1778 18 nov 1777
apg andersen com \( scott \) subject nature waco gas organization andersen consulting cstar lines 21 nntp posting host 144 36 14 91 cash convex com \( peter cash \) writes article cronkite central sun com dbernard clesun central sun com writes reason given use causes extreme nausea , blindness , disorientation , total irrationality , raging paranoia children would susceptible , show results earlier indeed talking cs , quite accurate cs tear gas albeit worst kind n't nausea gas , n't direct cns effects however , 's quite bad much worse cn gas anyone publically considered possibility fires set defence instead suicide destruction confusion caused tanks gas caused things get bds control \? spending programs , ' taxes , ' people say need dictionary \? dan quayle 2 19 93 employer responsible anything may appear
jhart agora rain com \( jim hart \) subject cult practices fbi organization open communications forum lines 10 broadcasting amplified sounds tortured rabbits \? burning alive men , women , children \? hands truly sick puppies jim hart jhart agora rain com arlen specter president '96
jgd dixie com \( john de armond \) subject ammo fire \( waco burning \) organization dixie communications public access mouth south lines 53 bressler iftccu ca boeing com \( rick bressler \) writes small arms rounds set outside firearm pose little risk except possibly eye injuries minor wounds true large concentrations ammo , \( type insert semi auto \) probably pose larger risk , mostly heat flame \( also covered reference \) risk smaller unless somehow confined heat early ignitions could somehow bulk heat remainder two years ago month house office burned office reloading bench top shelf next wooden ceiling 100 lbs smokeless powder , 5 lbs black powder , several thousand primers couple thousand loaded rounds , primarily , 30 20 308 fire extinguished area containing reloading supplies fully involved 1 2 char joists , subsequently removed lots heat words none powder kegs ignited one pistol powder ignited explosion , opened seam designed black powder cans charred got hot plastic completely melted ran inside powder contained mostly 8 lb cardboard metal kegs kegs charred badly enough paper labels burned completely case metal cans , plastic melted completely away many rounds cooked close proximity wood sides effects easy observe cases rifle ammo , cartridge cases ruptured middle many bullets found still neck small brass lightly stuck wood lightly enough would usually primers generally popped primer pockets rounds cooked left empty cases bullets laying around dents observed storage area , indicating bullets left cases slowly enough hazard ordinary small arms ammo hazard cooking regardless fbi says john john de armond , wd4oqc interested high performance mobility \? performance engineering magazine \( tm \) interested high tech computers \? marietta , ga send ur snail mail address jgd dixie com perform dixie com free sample mag lee harvey oswald ya need ya \?
jgd dixie com \( john de armond \) subject truth waco organization dixie communications public access mouth south distribution usa lines 74 dhartung chinet chi il us \( dan hartung \) writes massive dan mercifully deleted last sentence says hell \( government \) judge religion wrong event , hope , recorded history american holocaust people murdered us government surely jews nazis hang head shame 've allowed government become never judged religion , actions lived quiet , religious life claimed , would raid , siege , deaths instead , chose courses action every turn least stupid , irrational first stockpile weapons second shoot federal agents third stay inside last time checked , arsenal practicing kind religion mentioned passing bill rights guess 's ok brush 'em aside order justify killing bunch religious , eh \? idiots run daily life , dan , type scare 'll accept expediency coward 's safety belief long government tells assume anyone n't beliefs ways thinking wrong therefore bad worse , seem accept without question government says wrong wrong david koresh 's religion mine , neither baptists , methodists , catholics rest corporate religions even though koresh 's , baptists , methodists , etc , n't believe way , recognize religions equally valid mine importantly equally protected 1st amendment see , i'm much different koresh suspect many others fit catagory read bible many times learned , discovered lot corporate religions practice n't justified interpretation bible therefore go way koresh neither anyone else , either individually collectively great socialist right whatsoever tell koresh religions wrong seem think would oh easy davidians forsake everything believed walk compound order save think \( 're capable \) moment belief hold would abandon belief suddenly told government \? would beneath contempt let 's assume belief hold dear enough commit life think would correct course action government initiate actions specifically designed force make forsake die decision \? forsake die option exactly government forced davidians day first wave black clad fired first shot tossed first grenade fbi day 51 sent heavy armor 80 odd men , women children holed old building armed small arms people stayed , held beliefs personal safety , whose individual personal honors demanded die rather submit , believed bill rights meant exactly says , people go deepest respect , regardless religion people like blithely blow murder 80 people well could come get contempt 'd spit face network us 're worth ashes people burned john john de armond , wd4oqc interested high performance mobility \? performance engineering magazine \( tm \) interested high tech computers \? marietta , ga send ur snail mail address jgd dixie com perform dixie com free sample mag lee harvey oswald ya need ya \?
dbernard clesun central sun com \( dave bernard \) subject 's next \? mormons jews \? organization sun microsystems lines 28 distribution world reply dbernard clesun central sun com nntp posting host clesun central sun com article dazixco ingr com , crphilli hound dazixca ingr com \( ron phillips \) writes article world std com , rjk world std com \( robert j kolker \) writes thank remembering insane act sanctification g 's name extreme denial tyranny possible day officers \( isreal defense force \) take oath fortress lo matzadah matzadah fall ! anymore ! recent archaeological inspection site presents pretty compelling evidence mass suicide masada never occured evidence compelling tha long hold secret ceremony fortress ron phillips crphilli hound dazixca ingr com senior customer engineer intergraph electronics 381 east evelyn avenue voice \( 415 \) 691 6473 mountain view , ca 94041 fax \( 415 \) 691 0350 first 've heard could yo please elaborate little \?
dbernard clesun central sun com \( dave bernard \) subject waco clinton press conference , part 1 organization sun microsystems lines 46 distribution world reply dbernard clesun central sun com nntp posting host clesun central sun com article 3890 rpp386 , jfh rpp386 \( john f haugh ii \) writes article blake 70 nevada edu blake nevada edu \( rawlin blake \) writes hoping kent state taught us lesson apparently apparently government murder anyone choose still 's right despite claims someone kent state fire shotgun soldiers , projectiles anyone prove sent direction soldiers rocks john f haugh ii pgp 2 1 ! 's ! cs utexas edu ! rpp386 ! jfh bell \( 512 \) 251 dof 17 's jfh rpp386 cactus org firearms ever ever shot national guard kent state time shooting , rocks thrown squad slowly proceeding knoll , away body students students taunting , photographs incident show one two students following taunting series photographs show squad slowly proceeding hill , occasionally , 45 hand turned back look came , command , entire squad turned fired m1 , firing 30 06 rounds crowd \( shown 45 full \) least two students shot nothing passing , participants confrontation dispute whether guard even legally campus apparently invited onto state school president , conveniently flown coop , around governor ohio , james rhodes , senate campaign , wanted known tough , ordered guard matter quickly covered years later , wounded survivors launched civil lawsuit responsible settlement made , terms , plaintiffs could discuss much , guilty individuals identified \( fact , shooters squad identified \) tragic incident , provoked students , apparently general command studying incident photos , imo looks like independent action small squad soldiers
kennejs cs okstate edu \( kennedy james scot \) subject blast next time organization oklahoma state university distribution usa lines 56 article 1r19l9 7dv usenet ins cwru edu , oldham ces cwru edu \( daniel oldham \) happened waco fault batf would proper equipment personal could captured compound initial assault none would happened proper equipment problem went things wrong way atf served warrant manner instead going like bunch guns blazing i'm trying excuse david koresh i'm saying atf \( henceforth known cigarette cops \) went raid improper manner batf needs people , better weapons armored transports meet hostile fire able use force instead retreating stand going job right batf protect us must proper equipment people job let fbi , customs , local police officers atf 's job need anymore ! ! ! cigarette cops prohibition days anachronism ! wod increased crime streets batf needed ever blast away good fokes price pay law order country look good people died wars protect great country including \? cigarette cops kicked door cut half machine gun \? could actually happen maybe get wrong address raid home , example 's happened happen heard one instance knock raid going sour recently heard case police raided guy 's home thought dope something guy blew officers away n't go jail judge hearing case ruled man acting self defense arms build waco needed hit compound mega fire power could gone blasting killed women kids would better letting burn death 51 days later sure would way go \? surely fbi atf could handled fiasco better n't massacre people stimpy said fake dad , shame , shame , double shame ! fbi atf ashamed scott kennedy , brewer patriot david koresh cheap thug interprets bible barrel gun atf spokesman atf cheap thug interprets constitution barrel gun
kennejs cs okstate edu \( kennedy james scot \) subject batf fbi revenge organization oklahoma state university lines 30 article hydra gatech edu , gs26 prism gatech edu \( glenn r stone \) rwing uucp pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) writes anybody impeachment \? yeah , hillary 's buddy janet say 're responsible want desk yesterday also want thier butts federal civil rights violations something carries life prison penalty oh , 'll contribute 20 arlen specter 's presidential campaign launch senate investigation second motion wholeheartedly also , cigarette cops \( k atf \) comments anyone \? glenn r stone \( glenns eas gatech edu \) america distress \( flag upside sos \) save republic longer exists scott kennedy , brewer patriot david koresh cheap thug interprets bible barrel gun atf spokesman atf cheap thug interprets constitution barrel gun
dbernard clesun central sun com \( dave bernard \) subject shoot somebody organization sun microsystems lines 15 distribution world reply dbernard clesun central sun com nntp posting host clesun central sun com cooperative police possible ! show repeat information often requested often ask questions verify facts , , unfortunately , see lying fill statements show required identification weapon permits \( ! registered citizens ! register politicians deadly tax weapons needing confiscated ! \) required state contact lawyer immediately decide would call required say anything lawyer present , saying anything time construed derogatory cause anything say later used talking police , people gathering evidence prosecutor use
dbernard clesun central sun com \( dave bernard \) subject denver post yanks 'assault organization sun microsystems lines 42 distribution world reply dbernard clesun central sun com nntp posting host clesun central sun com article dns1 nmsu edu , loki acca nmsu edu \( entropic destroyer \) writes denver post \( supposed voice supposed rocky mountain empire \) ran following , classified heading friday , 23 april 1993 opinion new found wisdom , told person speak one mr walters , \( 303 \) 820 notice denver post longer knowingly accept advertise ment buy sell assault ons denver post finds use assault weapons poses threat health , safety , security readers let 'em know think dan revolution , assasination , , cobalt 60 , , cia , nsa , shc dod 202 loki acca nmsu edu liberty death taylordf ucsu colorado edu send something even ca n't read begin pgp public key block version 2 2 mqcnaitfksqaaaeeakceejwi9f5kmjykp0logc5dghrpbmy2xhoo8kpehmdyuf8a 1bfdqsj53kostz6hroshsdzlvul1 40vpjmmntfr vyz4jvd3rl4iuq2ummmex3m itf3ult8xn v qabsvhcfshvjvk4lf6wosucmo03m2tix31ai7vb0uzo4yxjaaux tcreyw5pzwwgribuyxlsb3igpexva2laywnjys5ubxn1lmvkdt4 s5ib end pgp public key block 've seen lots notes like various newspaper classified sections hunting sporting goods outdoor collector 's , see things like , colt 223 hunting rifle , 223 sporting arm stuff like newspaper gets make editorial statement , plus get revenue anyway
kdw icd ab com \( kenneth whitehead \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! nntp posting host sora icd ab com organization allen bradley company , inc lines 37 nl oracle com \( jason durbin \) writes even half speculations conspiracy made true , would expect people calling atf , fbi , texas rangers , congress branches us government immediately disbanded exceptions jeez , people really beleive crap \? also beleive zionist occupation government tooth fairy \? jason 've heard people talking dismissed conspiracy nuts , nobody seems talking conspiracy , least beginning lot bad decisions went tragedy , people may taking serious evasive action avoid held responsible unexpected results bad decisions actually , ones see tied conspiracy theory ones raving deranged cultists weapons suicide admittedly mistakes made attribute malice rather stupidity \? think lot us following pretty closely beginning , probably agree tragedy result stupidity malice jason durbin oracle europe
kennejs cs okstate edu \( kennedy james scot \) subject 's next \? mormons jews \? organization oklahoma state university lines 72 article cronkite central sun com , dbernard clesun central sun com \( dave bernard \) include right murder little children \? killing atf officers \? know much gun laws texas , koresh 's folks claimed grenades , grenade launchers , rocket launchers sure nra feels falls right bear arms waco wackos truly grenade launchers rocket launchers , n't used armored vehicles attacked house \? media stated small arms \( ie , ineffective \) fire used noticed special agent \( asshole actually \) ricks stated david koresh explosives could blow armored vehicle 40 feet air looked like bds plenty opportunity use explosives provided first place example , one tanks injecting cs gas ranch house \( yes ranch house bds n't living fortress \) could easily destroyed disabled tank idling considerable length time , n't \? could n't explosives similar munitions \? n't buy atf fbi saying hopefully , truth come 's something noteworthy fire burning time explosion occurred one explosion media said explosives bds going n't think case brother noticed called explosion resembled plume propane gas ignited figure explosion looked sounded obviously , n't due something like tnt , dynamite , c4 seen propane explosion explosion ranch house greatly resembled also , noticed something looked like propane tank charred ruble next day n't curious atf n't forthcoming four officers got killed \? many weeks gone stated officers killed wounded grenades thrown bds earlier , someone asked one whether autopsy performed slain agents , said autopsy done ready release findings \? atf something hide \? perhaps four agents killed friendly fire cause death exactly \? one ever said certain atf agents throw grenades compound matter fact , mr koresh handed lawyer grenade body one lawyer 's visits compound later lawyer gave grenade body \( n't know dud spent one btw \) atf much want bet grenade mysteriously disappear \? point time people know grenades atf agents would n't one ever found evidence grenades , rockets , explosives rubble \? atf would sure egg face note atf initial sweep rubble fbi texas rangers wo n't investigate atf done looks like perfect opportunity atf make sure others find want find know mean i'm probably little paranoid could reason recall several weeks gone anyone said bds used grenades also recall early atf denied agents used grenades bds someone lying scott kennedy , brewer patriot david koresh cheap thug interprets bible barrel gun atf spokesman atf cheap thug interprets constitution barrel gun
dlb5404 tamuts tamu edu \( daryl biberdorf \) subject texas hb 1776 voting today organization texas university , college station lines 8 distribution usa nntp posting host tamuts tamu edu called legislative bill tracking service found hb 1776 \( concealed carry \) scheduled floor vote today ! let phone calls roll daryl daryl biberdorf n5gjm biberdorf tamu edu sola gratia sola fide sola scriptura
r1328 vmcms csuohio edu subject bd 's 're paranoid freaks organization csu lines 33 article 1993apr22 starbase trincoll edu \( \) writes freed om religion absolutely nothing building small arsenal grooming 10 year old children wife 'll come soon finish manuscript seven seals oh , ok , david agree koresh much victim perpetrator grew inside cult , engaged power struggle supporters helped inflate ego n't change fact loose fucking cannon shitload serious weapons banging thirteen year olds twisting little minds move fuck helicoptor thermal imaging compound afternoon detected three fires erupting almost simultaneously cs canisters specially modified abrams stuff chance starting fire kerosene lamps \? maybe one , three fires way koresh n't talking ass expected happen maybe wanted look like murder 50 days think coming whole time n't even put children buried bus underground bunker cs seige put tower die fuck big brother paranoid freaks good thing come one less group attract members society 'd agree joe rodney thomas
roger gte com \( michael \) subject senate bills help ! keywords 897 lines 21 two urgent requests 1 need latest update description bill 897 gather bill takes hunter safety courses law enforcement places fish game control 2 someone compiled list senate house bills consideration \? , please e mail list , database access \? thanx , fight , mike p p wife thought nancy b great street stories mike \( 617 \) 466 gte com i'm nra gte laboratories incorporated , 40 sylvan road waltham , 02154
dlb5404 tamuts tamu edu \( daryl biberdorf \) subject texas hb 1776 voting today organization texas university , college station lines 18 distribution usa nntp posting host tamuts tamu edu article tamsun tamu edu dlb5404 tamuts tamu edu \( daryl biberdorf \) writes called legislative bill tracking service found hb 1776 \( concealed carry \) scheduled floor vote today ! let phone calls roll well , n't normally like quote , got additional information called state rep \( express support \) , person informed 's actually second reading bill \( three required \) consideration i'm 100 sure means , i'm also sure 's discrepancy two offices telling still researching daryl daryl biberdorf n5gjm biberdorf tamu edu sola gratia sola fide sola scriptura
aj359 cleveland freenet edu \( christopher c morton \) subject batf fbi murders almost everyone waco today ! 4 19 organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 37 reply aj359 cleveland freenet edu \( christopher c morton \) nntp posting host slc10 ins cwru edu previous article , rats cbnewsc cb att com \( morris cat \) says third person 's fbi 's line fires set six hours tear gas injected suppose would fed snipers able witness bds setting fire \( claimed \) tear gas \? actually heard one report claimed infrared cameras saw branch dividians setting fires , 'll excuse yeah sure maybe thermal armored vehicles discussing military hardware weapons , media generally looks like convention scepticism , find quite strange anyone would operating thermal viewer daytime battle would unusual sense combat operation gassing bd , whatever \( infamous bz hallucination gas \? \) , cs merely garden variety military teargas far humane harmless , 've seen teenage boys knock drill flat getting away pretty sure newly born religious groups study fbi tactics build anti armor tank traps make next time ! lot expect idiots criminals confirm paranoids paranoia \? smarter , 'd opinions
boulder colorado edu \( eric e snyder \) subject denver post classifieds assault weapons nntp posting host beagle colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 29 came across following notice denver post classified morning \( april 26 , 1993 \) begin quote notice denver post longer knowingly accept advertisement buy sell assault weapons denver post finds use assault weapons poses threat health , safety , security readers end quote suppose post within rights refuse ads however , second sentence noxious , feel compelled bring attention p g c g readership called post classified number \( 825 \) expressed displeasure according supervisor spoke , post reacting public complaints regarding running assult weapon ads however , said paper keeping track reaction change policy strongly encourage denver post readers call make feelings known eric e snyder department mcd biology making feet childrens' shoes university colorado , boulder boulder , colorado
rats cbnewsc cb att com \( morris cat \) subject bd 's 're paranoid freaks organization distribution usa lines 12 move fuck helicoptor thermal imaging compound afternoon detected three fires erupting almost simultaneously anyone notice helicopters equipped thermal imaging equipment \? usually manifest front , sphere top rotor optical elements n't notice uh 1s equipped use handheld military thermal scanners \? , recording capability , hence credibility report subject human error
jagst18 pitt edu \( josh grossman \) subject waco burning organization university pittsburgh lines 26 article acsu buffalo edu v111qheg ubvmsd cc buffalo edu \( p vasilion \) writes necessarily body denatured \( cooked \) dehydrated due heat , projectile needs minimal kinetic force penetrate fire , bodies tend fall apart loose large chunks meat little effort medical examiners tend like cleaning scenes , body suitably cooked , bullet comming magazine explosion would likely enough force enter thus would difficult determine whether bullet entered time death , much later , unless trained look evidence texas rangers p vasilion quite , bullet hitting burned body little energy show virtually , ie hollow point probably would expand , would also bullets marked lands barrel , n't come one good pathologist able notice right away let us hope 's handle bodies competent ones jfk 's body jag
aj359 cleveland freenet edu \( christopher c morton \) subject nature waco gas organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 37 reply aj359 cleveland freenet edu \( christopher c morton \) nntp posting host slc10 ins cwru edu previous article , dbernard clesun central sun com \( dave bernard \) says heard network radio news spokesman army saying type cs gas used waco banned military use use also banned draft international agreement use chemical weapons warfare reason given use causes extreme nausea , blindness , disorientation , total irrationality , raging paranoia n't know paranoia irrationality , rest pretty close , though left inability breath course make claim people fairly deranged things get away 've seen teenagers flatten drill get tents full raises another issue children would susceptible , show results earlier stuff janet reno told would safe children n't mention open , probably would n't much harm children , although would n't use close proximity infants hand , confined spaces , effects greatly intensified , point lethality , since sufficient quantity cs displace oxygen running cs chamber careful attention paid ventilation wonder checked see bds suffered respiratory diseases doubt smarter , 'd opinions
sbanka vm temple edu subject two questions organization temple university lines 10 nntp posting host vm temple edu x newsreader nnr vm 1 3 2 'd appreciate help anyone could give two questions brady bill news throughout 1992 actually happened congress \? bush veto \? , \? also , state virginia , believe , passed gun control bill 25 year think limits gun purchases one month correct \? bill number \? anyone \?
jrm gnv ifas ufl edu subject batf fbi right thing waco lines 44 everyone complaining debacle waco hard understand angst happend nothing less wanted happen sour grapes \? batf looking propaganda event counteract impending budget cuts attendance press initial big commando raid proof would ever easier grab koresh central followers shopped waco alas , propaganda value fbi screwed big time , time never allowed situation drag like quick second assault , bds could decide strategy , would better plan bds biggest screw ups though imagined us law us law enforcement jurisdiction within little wrong ! right whatsoever fire batf , mistook identity initially , surrendered realize bds problem warrants , take court , like rest us wanted full auto weapons , could obtained proper permits , like rest us would need may decide us law applies get chance like rest us voting booth batf fbi become latter day gestapo , become way desired get vote laws , lawmakers choices years , approved creation form batf fbi fbi chasing , general public n't seem mind bit extra constitutional activity batf raiding militant black organizations , n't mind heavy hand fbi around rights , public n't mind suddenly , see bit current agencies , get bent shape suprise ! reap waco encapsulation american experience religious fanaticism , thinking overwhelming violence n't blame 'them' , fbi batf acting within parameters set years made 'them' 'them' jim mason
jrm gnv ifas ufl edu subject batf fbi revenge lines 59 article rwing uucp , pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) writes sick , dismayed , discouraged ashamed administration looks like us little square fbi korash psychopath , deliberate mass suicide , etc possibly possibly n't believe tear gas used god bless america land free ! ! ! \( past tense \) well , maybe overreacting see tv typing govt \( new attorney general , known almost rabid private ownership guns wants ban 'assault everything else \) , saying fbi amazing restraint , falls back official line bd child abuse , going basis , vain hope honest investigation occur thing \? simply whitewashed rug , business usual continue order day new order \? given official title thought police , wonder \? load crap ! bds absolutely right fire upon batf agents n't know first , surrendered immediately realize dealing little groups loonies get decide laws obey disobey sorts warrants justified like rest us , get say voting booth personal wants backed majority voters , bad wanted keep automatic weapons , could apply proper permits problem warrant get argue court event get establish little nation inside pretend laws law enforcement personel jurisdiction within borders live us territory , live us laws period \( unless congressman \) sure , situation handled badly batf fbi would easy koresh core members streets waco batf , threatened budget cuts , trying propaganda coup dragging press along big commando style assault proof roasted mindset hand , legal right attack begun , pressed finished rather let situation like take root fbi also used poor judgement number ways , laws voters approved , lawmakers created , gave right batf fbi latter day gestapo , voters allowed become way waco pure mentality , religious fanaticism violence rolled one experience get pay , vote , result many choices made years n't blame 'them' blame made 'them' , 'them'
f gautjw ccsvax sfasu edu subject arlen specter 's address \? organization stephen f austin state university lines 18 article 1993apr22 icd ab com , kdw icd ab com \( kenneth whitehead \) writes anybody got arlen spectre 's address \? want write thank showing leadership demand congressional investigation waco mess ken talking man federal attorney much frustrate proper investigation jfk assassination house sub committee assassinations fox hen house \? \? \? joe gaut super state , really f gautjw ccsvax sfasu edu matter actually happened remember alamo truth government chooses remember waco tell justice wants happen jim garrison , new orleans , la
meyers leonardo rtp dg com \( bill meyers \) subject h r 893 distribution usa organization n lines 19 article cbnews cb att com lvc cbnews cb att com \( larry cipriani \) writes posting text h r 893 8 \( \) \( 1 \) \( \) shall unlawful person pos 9 assault weapon , unless weapon lawfully page break 1 continuously possessed person since 2 date subsection ob ill wind bill prez , least anti gunners closet provision existing called assault weapons die current owners worked h r 3371 \( 102nd congress bill number \) couple years ago , complicated way anti 's claimed drafting error ca n't call 'em lying bastards longer \( time \) gridlock , mechanism ever succeed slowing growth rate big government
kdw icd ab com \( kenneth whitehead \) subject clinton joins list genocidal socialist leaders nntp posting host sora icd ab com organization allen bradley company , inc lines 47 snip draughn iitmax iit edu \( mark draughn \) writes president competent plan judge planning raid , need job set basic policies manage people clinton instructed reno preserve lives , confirmed plan raid safe could , job president involve minor details kinds operations sort leads disaster , demonstrated well vietnam raid went bad 80 civilians killed u authorities clinton enters picture big way clinton start investigation \? try squash attempt investigate \? responsible leader \? interested protecting image administration \? 'll find unfolds excellent point , mark remember nixon n't tried cover misguided actions subordinates watergate , scandal would never brought presidency far , klinton seems stonewalling way tricky dick whole case seems n't anything wrong however , course investigation turns gov't something wrong , tried cover , 's crime , believe perhaps inadvertently cooking scandal say , little neighbor \? \) ya know , part loyal opposition kinda fun change sure glad get bitch clinton rather one poor stuck trying defend wonder michael likes part establishment \? \) ken whitehead \( kdw odin icd ab com \)
wwarf silver ucs indiana edu \( wayne j warf \) subject waco burning nntp posting host silver ucs indiana edu organization indiana university lines 42 article blue cis pitt edu jagst18 pitt edu \( josh grossman \) writes article acsu buffalo edu v111qheg ubvmsd cc buffalo edu \( p vasilion \) writes necessarily body denatured \( cooked \) dehydrated due heat , projectile needs minimal kinetic force penetrate fire , bodies tend fall apart loose large chunks meat little effort medical examiners tend like cleaning scenes , body suitably cooked , bullet comming magazine explosion would likely enough force enter thus would difficult determine whether bullet entered time death , much later , unless trained look evidence texas rangers p vasilion quite , bullet hitting burned body little energy show virtually , ie hollow point probably would expand , would also bullets marked lands barrel , n't come one good pathologist able notice right away let us hope 's handle bodies competent ones jfk 's body jag speaking 's fbi said fire victims found face fire victims , apparently , usually found face suggesting died prior fire says , word , bullshit , victims face fbi says sent body victim shot , supposedly bd guards , says , word , bullshit , body showed evidence gunshot wounds atf fbi tell difference truth \? wayne j warf wwarf ucs indiana edu speak clinton gore cia fbi dea assassinate bomb wod bor atf irs resist nsa christian god satan apocalypse zog nazi socialist communist explosive fundamentalist revolution nsc federal reserve constitution gold fema
organization university illinois chicago , academic computer center jason kratz u28037 uicvm uic edu subject gun like american express card distribution usa 9 1993apr23 csd newshost stanford edu lines 26 article 1993apr23 csd newshost stanford edu , andy sail stanford edu \( andy freeman \) says many lines deleted subject kind funny though one picked part sister social worker keeping date e th gang thing everyone else seemed skim part actually , us experience social workers ignored ah , freeman prejudiced \( look see mean freeman \) freeman pre judging someone knows facts guess happen best \( case worst \) us quit 're behind , andy freeman thinks behind actually quite top things point seems missing certain point accuracy tedious ridiculous see freeman 's next post explanation jason u28037 uicvm cc uic edu
djh4484 zeus tamu edu \( , daniel joseph \) subject gun control organization texas university , academic computing services lines 53 distribution world nntp posting host zeus tamu edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article 1993apr16 010235 14225 mtu edu , cescript mtu edu \( charles scripter \) writes article 2k7 ulowell ulowell edu jrutledg cs ulowell edu \( john lawrence rutledge \) wrote article gap caltech edu arc cco caltech edu \( aaron ray clements \) writes second amendment guarantee right bear arms clearly unequivocally , without infringement saw nifty drawn posting thought might give two little help problem know posted , \( foolish thing gave much shit last time tried post \) took liberty deleting header single quote hope n't mind written second ammendment states rather clearly anyone read following well regulated militia , security free state , right people keep bear arms shall infringed regulated \? regulated means controlled ! security \? well hey ! would along lines feeling safe would n't \? wow ! concept forming n't ! \? left \? right people people people people people people people \( sorry got kinda \) shall infringed oops ! backup , hmmm infringed 'd like interfered , altered , changed watered way , shape form ! ! 's big old long winded version would well controlled militia , necessary secure safe feeling state , right people keep bear arms shall fucked way shape form happy ass good nothing government building wants run life pursuit happiness ! item clear concise 's present form young friend ! need clarification ammendment guarantees continued existence others 's whole purpose give people recourse military machine government fails properly represent 's creators ! us ! james madison , federalist paper 41 \( regarding general welfare clause \) nothing natural common first use general phrase , explain qualify recital particulars replies comments sent kane djh4484 rigel tamu edu representative government need fear 's armed citizens death tyrants ! thing fear !
wwarf silver ucs indiana edu \( wayne j warf \) subject evil tax dollars work , atf burns ranch etc etc nntp posting host silver ucs indiana edu organization indiana university lines 72 article 93112 psuvm psu edu mark 'mark' sachs mbs110 psuvm psu edu writes article 93112 153005mgb slacvm slac stanford edu , mgb slacvm slac stanford edu says p according numerous accounts compound , fire started armoured vehicle crushing large propane tank , turning numerous gas lanterns oh \? smoke flames start three different places \? particular , three different places apv 's \? evidence \? fbi texas medical examiner refuted 2 lies today government start fire , n't people trying get compound \? let put building , pump cs , knock walls around see fast find exit besides oh , n't know i'm even bothering n't know either , 're willing swallow everything fed good boy find tremendously chilling many people seem willing accept governments story , despite much evidence contrary find tremendously chilling many people seem eager believe murderous , heavily armed religious cult , despite much evidence contrary thought experiment suppose exact thing happened bush administration would answer \? would still prefer believe cultists \? oh clinton apologist , n't say \( , n't really expect response challenge \) , mr clinton elected , people believe campaign promisses would respected got office um , n't politicians elected \? people believe , little wonder believe given fact clinton reno fbi batf confederation particular reason gummint decided slaughter eighty people \? , like , plain evil , \? wake one day , stretch yawn , throw dart map united states figure oppress day \? i'm eager know kgbatf expecting quick victory cameras rolled , however , ones script bill clinton cooler theme music darth vader \? diabolical laughter \? look good cape \? things must investigated first hey , 're apologist , tell us propose destroy moon , neatly solving problem blood pressure went mark sachs mbs110 psuvm psu edu disclaimer psu knew opinions , 'd try charge wayne j warf wwarf ucs indiana edu speak clinton gore cia fbi dea assassinate bomb wod bor atf irs resist nsa christian god satan apocalypse zog nazi socialist communist explosive fundamentalist revolution nsc federal reserve constitution gold fema
organization university illinois chicago , academic computer center jason kratz u28037 uicvm uic edu subject gun like american express card distribution usa 1993apr19 csd news 1993apr23 csd newshost stanford edu lines 59 article 1993apr23 csd newshost stanford edu , andy sail stanford edu \( andy freeman \) says freeman 's love accuracy becomes really ridiculous good let 's look sections 'll prove point point possible certain circumstances many people carry concealed illinois \( \) person commits offense unlawful use weapons knowingly \( 4 \) carries possesses vehicle concealed person except land abode fixed place business pistol , revolver , stun gun taser firearm note n't affect concealed carry \( look word except \) always helps read law commenting read law commented judging replies received semantics p g post many \( \) people p g assume ccw laws asked person asking possibility ordinary citizen getting one would also follow said person would get ccw carry person away home business would prudent carry concealed \? someone home \? note legal , lot common people qualify one andy maybe freeman prove point point relevant thing people seem care ask questions carrying concealed weapon whether carry concealed person street somewhere i'm sure many people concerned whether carry concealed home speaking someone lives illinois \( place quoted law relevant \) \) know legal handgun \( taking account city ordinances \) could care less whether carry concealed home care fact ca n't carry concealed place really counts street freeman loves accurate understand \( especially \) seems forgetting accurate facts n't always replace common sense going followup thread anymore believe useless argue points anymore thing happening freeman running around circles trying prove wrong time playing games anymore course freeman attack use common sense earlier posts advice freeman quit picky accuracy sometimes use common sense really work times jason u28037 uicvm cc uic edu
atfurman cup portal com \( \) subject law retribution organization portal system \( tm \) appserv eng sun com lines 15 steve hix writes nowhere net guy post \? mention , anywhere makes sense \? ! course perhaps put hyperspace bypass get alan n't blame voted libertarian atfurman cup portal com \( 800 \) 682 1776 information
\( \) subject clinton joins list genocidal socialist leaders organization trinity college , hartford , ct lines 65 article cbnewse cb att com , random cbnewse cb att com \( david l pope \) wrote article 1993apr23 153005 8237 starbase trincoll edu , \( \) 've yet meet group baptists stockpiling cambell 's soup 16 's ar 15 's banging marrying thirteen yuear \( sic \) olds numerous baptists hang around n't seen behavior \? trait \( stocking food week , owning firearm \) definition cult \? proof \( aside david 's \) leads believe banging marrying thirteen year olds going \? wife know equate \? \( sic \) oh , 're really bright nobody would understood typo several parents children either one time currently inside compound made aforementioned charges one parent actually spoke said charges \( reference 13 year old daughter \) koresh phone missed point entirely 're sorry son bitch ca n't draw distinction two things since guy n't like concept freedom religion , 's going insult mom ! since 're unable formulate cogent response , make lame joke people like cheapen constitution using defend sociopaths n't deserved get life chill paranoia sociopath person sociopaths 200 persons , ca n't stand people , sharing ranch house anti social normally meaning response societal norms stealing behavior 's oxymoron group sociopaths guess 're psychologist oh well joe kusmierczak mail trincoll edu suddenly becomes clear maybe get education , man everyone discover net spring \? wo n't assholes use sig send mail instead wasting bandwidth \? random joe kusmierczak mail trincoll edu
\( \) subject clinton joins list genocidal socialist leaders organization trinity college , hartford , ct lines 25 article transfer stratus com , cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) wrote perhaps 've rock since , say , turn century one man supposed review every single freaking governmental action , every day \? 's executive branch reviewed plan said go , n't architect n't , hand , implementing yes , responsible sense briefed ! shit happens hey , joe assuming 're old enough remember feel presidential responsibility every time reagan said n't recall arms hostages meetings ollie north gang \? feel bush said loop decision right thick \? oh , right responsible sense briefed , shit happens ! said \? course 's little difference formulating foreign policy overseeing atf 's handling scenario involving group religious fanatics people compare apples oranges \? joe kusmierczak mail trincoll edu
lmsc5 lmsc lockheed com subject lmsc lockheed com organization lockheed missiles space company , inc lines 87 original article colorado daily recently reprinted wall street journal 's article paxton quigley , including nefarious little paragraph journal tacked onto end recieving much assistance various p g type folks , wrote letter editor criticizing last paragraph , surprise , surprise , surprise , published text follows colorado daily , btw , university colorado \( boulder \) student \( think \) newspaper exactly big coup , every little bit , guess \( title thing changed added \) gun stats daily recently reprinted article wall street journal , primarily concerned paxton quigley , author armed female article , turn , cites misleading statistic originally reported new england journal medicine article states , study found gun home 43 times likely used kill owner , spouse , friend , child kill intruder often quoted statistic , misleading reasons , outlined study gives impression , gun , likelihood successfully use defend less gun turned study , however , fails take account cases law abiding citizen uses gun thwart crime , without actually killing study actually refers rather would include friendly thug shows like , every month , second grandmother social security check possibly acquaintance , hardly friend nejm study based immediate dis position cases fails take account cases originally filed homicides later ruled self defense especially considering small sample size \( 396 \) , taking events account sub effect 43 1 ratio quoted gary kleck gives us slightly dif statistic gun 33 times likely used , successfully , private citizen aggressor kill anyone , per sons defending aggression using gun fare better resist means , offer resistance statistics available fbi agencies also show gun 245 times likely used non criminal defend criminal threat used commit criminal homicide , 535 times likely used defend criminal threat accidentally kill anybody , 50 times likely defend criminal threat used commit suicide well keep mind nearly anything proved uncritical quotation statistics one consider carefully questions asked gathering data one draw rate conclusion f taylor cu department chemistry biochemistry revolution , assasination , , cobalt 60 , , cia , nsa , shc dod 202 loki acca nmsu edu liberty death taylordf ucsu colorado edu send something even ca n't read begin pgp public key block version 2 2 mqcnaitfksqaaaeeakceejwi9f5kmjykp0logc5dghrpbmy2xhoo8kpehmdyuf8a 1bfdqsj53kostz6hroshsdzlvul1 40vpjmmntfr vyz4jvd3rl4iuq2ummmex3m itf3ult8xn v qabsvhcfshvjvk4lf6wosucmo03m2tix31ai7vb0uzo4yxjaaux tcreyw5pzwwgribuyxlsb3igpexva2laywnjys5ubxn1lmvkdt4 s5ib end pgp public key block
andy sail stanford edu \( andy freeman \) subject gun buy back organization computer science department , stanford university lines 77 article r1328 vmcms csuohio edu r1328 vmcms csuohio edu writes article clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) writes death serious wanna discuss match control \? firearms related unintentional deaths among children ages 14 fault one negligent persons , gun , n't want discuss match control n't equate book matches loaded 9 millimeter either n't , matches kill kids guns \? say tired old nra line guns n't kill people , people kill people may tired , true sure , people kill people without guns easy access guns makes lot convenient guns n't kill people , people easy access guns kill people , 's right either people easy access desire kill , kill people considering people desire kill turn easy access \( n't folks learned anything either prohibition war drugs \? \) n't affect desire , 're wasting time , mention costs incurred jim , i'm saying i'm saying good thing police talked run gun buyback programs , get impression really think impact community good note tm folks make argument 'll pay \( 21 million reasonable size city \) , promise meditate away crime , disease , etc least 're promising jail n't go along little plan 're going sit room fly , leaving alone gun violence whether effective look , ca n't measure impact programs using sort pre test post test evaluation , point \? must symbolic nature ah , evaluated gun control using n't work reduce crime point \? ca n't claim symbolic , people get jailed police essentially saying look , gun lying around n't want , 'll give 50 care community , 're essentially saying hope keep noticing 're anything useful pissing away resources n't caring , joe could think way measure effectiveness programs could become rich famous nope , 'll merely ignored , wright , rossi , daly finishing gun supposed prove gun control worked , jim , listen , said i'm religious whatsoever , understand \? religion nothing could care less religion okay \? put children situation wrong , pure simple difference good jim , progressive diverse person world , different allowing kids exposed tanks tear gas , yes jim , different wrong , gassed \? given previous experience thugs threw grenades yelling 're govt 're help , would rational person think feds best interests heart \? would know gas non lethal \? andy
microsoft com \( alan ezekiel \) subject waco burning organization microsoft corporation lines 30 v111qheg ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( p vasilion \) writes hallam zeus02 desy de writes b b c also reporting bodies b members found bullet wounds manner suggests may shot attempting leave compound fire imagine happens magazine explodes \? bullets go flying every imho , gunshot wounds actually caused magazines went unlikely ammunition dangerous simply burned fired gun brass case capable holding pressure generated burning powder , \( unless supported walls gun barrel chamber \) simply split open may cause small pieces brass fly around , bullet significant velocity fact , uncommon years past dispose old loaded cartridges burning long close enough take piece flying brass eye , reasonably safe thus , loaded magazines loose rounds might cause slight injury would unlikely cause fatal bullet wounds nobody shares opinions , jelly especially employer president john f kennedy
microsoft com \( alan ezekiel \) subject dayton gun buy back \( boston gun buy back \) organization microsoft corporation lines 63 lvc cbnews cb att com \( larry cipriani \) writes according wnci 97 9 fm radio morning , dayton , ohio operating gun buy back giving 50 every functional gun turned ran money one day , passing 50 vouchers sort looking funds keep operating another media event brought hci something similar pro gun people \? example , pay 100 anyone lawfully protects life firearm \? sounds bit tacky , hey , whatever works david veal points , sort promotion would used gun owners mass media however , proposal offer gun safety classes area , free , community service class would normally cost 40 50 , offering free good promotion gun club organized several \( finished teaching another one last night , fact \) well received get lot people novices interested guns even get anti gun , feel know something gun safety since members family keep guns home teaching course gives us many desirable benefits \( 1 \) chance teach gun safety rules increases firearm awareness may help reduce gun accident stats \( 2 \) gun safety class politically correct , likely viewed positively public media \( 3 \) students people' \( gun enthusiasts \) kind class gives us chance give gentle introduction firearms \( 4 \) students enthusiastic , purchase gun become involved shooting personal defense \( 5 \) improves public perception club gun owners general students see reasonable , non aggressive , soft spoken people , helps mitigate standard image hardcore gun owner even anti gun students sometimes tell us something new think regards personal gun ownership \( 6 \) sharing experience others lot fun course standard nra certified home firearm safety class , students pay 5 materials also teach nra 's personal protection class , although cost higher one since purchase range time think firearms safety classes excellent response gun buy backs nobody shares opinions , jelly especially employer president john f kennedy
nntp posting host surt ifi uio thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio subject change name \? \? reply well sf ca us \( hudson h \) 's message fri , 23 apr 1993 18 55 54 gmt organization dept informatics , university oslo , norway 1993apr20 linus mitre org well sf ca us lines 8 originator thomasp surt ifi uio read \? \? read posting quisling look dictionary n't read \) thomas
pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) subject batf fbi right thing waco organization university tennessee , knoxville x newsreader nnr vm 1 3 2 lines 78 article 1993apr21 gnv ifas ufl edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes everyone complaining debacle waco hard understand angst happend nothing less wanted happen sour grapes \? cute word angst conveys volumes 'd interested particular definition 's fluid pronoun batf looking propaganda event counteract impending budget cuts attendance press initial big commando raid proof would ever easier grab koresh central followers shopped waco alas , propaganda value fbi screwed big time , time never allowed situation drag like quick second assault , bds could decide strategy , would better plan bds biggest screw ups though imagined us law us law enforcement jurisdiction within little wrong ! bd paranoid little cult middle nowhere , sudden worst paranoid fears reinforced joy right whatsoever fire batf , mistook identity initially , surrendered realize yes , probably , although many paranoid nuts say held feds 51 days \? bds problem warrants , take court , like rest us wanted full auto weapons , could obtained proper permits , like rest us would need may decide us law applies get chance like rest us voting booth voting booth highly rated people need get lazy butts every year every two years hell , n't even batf fbi become latter day gestapo , become way desired , decided n't make enough difference us get something 's something , instance , lot people go speak gun control bills local government dozens pro gun speakers show , often win anyway \? n't matter shows , matters 's willing scream afterwards n't people give damn one way , n't nobody gives damn anybody beyond little worlds get vote laws , lawmakers choices years , approved creation form batf fbi fbi chasing , general public n't seem mind bit extra constitutional activity general public 's usually even read constitution learned distorted picture whole thing david veal university tennessee division continuing education pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu still remember way laughed pushed elevator shaft sometimes get thinking n't love anymore weird al yankovic
msu oscs montana edu subject newbie reply msu oscs montana edu organization montana state university lines 6 first time network , concerned incident waco refrain stating opinions read faq could someone tell get \? must say believe govt wrong actions took situation oscs montana edu
jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) subject clinton joins list genocidal socialist leaders organization hand held products , inc lines 102 distribution world nntp posting host dale handheld com article 1993apr26 starbase trincoll edu \( \) writes article cbnewse cb att com , random cbnewse cb att com \( david l pope \) wrote article 1993apr23 153005 8237 starbase trincoll edu , \( \) 've yet meet group baptists stockpiling cambell 's soup 16 's ar 15 's banging marrying thirteen yuear \( sic \) olds numerous baptists hang around n't seen behavior \? trait \( stocking food week , owning firearm \) definition cult \? proof \( aside david 's \) leads believe banging marrying thirteen year olds going \? wife know equate \? \( sic \) oh , 're really bright nobody would understood typo reasonable insertion , folks would know random n't made error reposting message one flaming typo several parents children either one time currently inside compound made aforementioned charges one parent actually spoke said charges \( reference 13 year old daughter \) koresh phone heard claims disgruntled former members could true , knows proof batf fbi actions \? missed point entirely , missed 're sorry son bitch ca n't draw distinction two things since guy n't like concept freedom religion , 's going insult mom ! since 're unable formulate cogent response , make lame joke people like cheapen constitution using defend sociopaths n't deserved get life chill paranoia sociopath person sociopaths 200 persons , ca n't stand people , sharing ranch house anti social normally meaning response societal norms stealing behavior 's oxymoron group sociopaths guess 're psychologist oh well joe kusmierczak mail trincoll edu suddenly becomes clear maybe get education , man everyone discover net spring \? wo n't assholes use sig send mail instead wasting bandwidth \? someone return address header newsgroups talk politics guns \( \) subject clinton joins list genocidal socialist leaders organization trinity college , hartford , ct lines 65 whereas david pope \( random \) , reasonable newsreader could simply hit reply comments , get education internet use , man random joe kusmierczak mail trincoll edu jim jmd handheld com i'm always rethinking 's never day n't rethought ca n't bill clinton 6 april 93 american , englishman , foreign troop landed country , never would lay arms , never never never ! william pitt , earl chatham 1708 1778 18 nov 1777
jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) subject clinton joins list genocidal socialist leaders organization hand held products , inc lines 112 distribution world nntp posting host dale handheld com article 1993apr26 starbase trincoll edu \( \) writes article clem handheld com , jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) wrote article 1993apr23 153005 8237 starbase trincoll edu \( \) writes 've yet meet group baptists stockpiling cambell 's soup 16 's ar 15 's banging marrying thirteen yuear olds n't recall saying baptists though suppose none listed dictionary characteristics cult mother stockpiled soup sale 're sorry son bitch ca n't draw distinction two things , foul mouthed human sound like ready join kkk neo nazis , narrow mind like fuck grandparents died \( native tongue , pseudo historically literate people \) , cares native tongue , long understand would suggest 'd search long hard find someone diffuse sensibilities oh , feet , would n't think i'm sorry grandparents died , easier say prove , , lesson paid thier lives wasted horn expert often feel compelled brag circumstances 's death 8 people like cheapen constitution using defend sociopaths n't deserved get life chill paranoia n't care cults 's language problem problem religious fanatics \( claiming god little bit unsettling \) stockpiling several years' supply canned foods enough weapons hold company \( mention atf , ed first place \) talking 're going take care unbelievers granted , moment , 'd done nothing wrong recognize respect atf discovers n't proper permits purchases failed pay taxes batf offense , true several parents come forward demand previous charges child abuse interviews parents whose children compound point parents claimed psychological sexual abuse childrens' statements supported charges local offense , true totally outside batf 's domain 'no knock \? ' really n't heard anything clearly another guy minding business hell , give guns world n't bother anyone scary sort , n't think \? n't know man tv chose tell sort person 'd want daughter date \? thought prejudicial undertones would trust daughter 's judgement n't think reason number one doubt legal statements made survivors \( note made , ' well hesitate say trained killers \) n't believe either side blindly fired atf 's little mistake , red white blue american defending home big brother fired first , without announcing way \( pound door claim police , lay take \? \) , could justified firing atf self defense shit n't fly anyone background shoot kill federal law enforcement officials good citizen whose crusade enjoys support 's loose cannon opinion background \? law convicted breaking past \? joe kusmierczak mail trincoll edu jim jmd handheld com i'm always rethinking 's never day n't rethought ca n't bill clinton 6 april 93 american , englishman , foreign troop landed country , never would lay arms , never never never ! william pitt , earl chatham 1708 1778 18 nov 1777
pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) subject two questions organization university tennessee , knoxville x newsreader nnr vm 1 3 2 lines 23 article sbanka vm temple edu sbanka vm temple edu writes 'd appreciate help anyone could give two questions brady bill news throughout 1992 actually happened congress \? bush veto \? , \? brady bill passed house 1992 , failed reach vote senate , never reached bush \( sarah brady 's condemnation withstanding \) 'll probably pass house , probably pass senate get vote whether 'll busy things question n't expect ho opposition part senate republicans , since wo n't want use fillibuster trump card david veal university tennessee division continuing education pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu still remember way laughed pushed elevator shaft sometimes get thinking n't love anymore weird al yankovic
michaelh public btr com \( michael hahn michaelh btr com \) subject cnn tape shows tank starting fire organization btr unix bbs email hub info btr contact support btr com lines 10 distribution world nntp posting host public btr com friend recorded cnn news gassing bd 's went carefully today , found something interesting tank pulling house , fireball , maybe 24 across lasts 1 second exactly ten minutes thirty nine seconds later , smoke starts billowing area building , i'm govt , might really weather balloon something perhaps someone would check comment
nate psygate psych indiana edu \( nathan engle \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! nntp posting host mushroom psych indiana edu organization psych department , indiana university lines 27 galen med virginia edu \( galen j \) writes nate psygate psych indiana edu \( nathan engle \) writes assembled frightening arsenal weapons , exactly , find frightening weapons \? lethality small part , mostly found frightening fact people believed ate breakfast every morning jesus christ n't galilee back roman occupation , n't know certain david koresh jesus christ , strongly suspect \( even aside fact never seen photograph together \) circumventing laws intended prevent buildup laws making reference \? admit ca n't cite specific , n't law purchasing grenade components assembling functioning units perhaps need one second ammendment arguments aside , i'm sure like idea private citizens hand grenades nathan engle software psychology department indiana university nate psygate psych indiana edu silver ucs indiana edu
cbnewsb cb att com \( mr x \) subject guns backcountry \? thanks organization twilight zone lines 77 article netnews upenn edu cis upenn edu \( \) writes article 1993apr16 csd newshost stanford edu , andy sail stanford edu \( andy freeman \) writes article 1993apr16 midway uchicago edu uchicago edu \( kevin geraghty \) writes wrong whole guns protection mindset , ignores systemic effects cumulative individual actions want fire insurance house 's prudent effect bunch paranoids packing handguns backcountry makes , anyone else n't chose protect manner , pretty f king nervous \? 're threat , 're affected aha 's part makes nervous gets decide threat \? might possibly receiving end violent gesture , get decide someone like , bad would exactly living creature would terms evaluation 's big deal \? based appearance \? sometimes would someone feel threatened approached dirty , , slightly looking person slight eyes , \? might n't describe 've couple days \? experience let us forget context often important factor evaluating situation seeing persons hiking trail likely evaluated equally meeting sort , described , lonely city street 3 anyone cannot properly discriminate two different situations legitimate fodder old survival principle based something else \? proximity \? room pass trail without getting real close someone inner sense \? i'm really getting nervous sounds like doubt abilities sound pretty typical respect also seem think 'll safe safer others unarmed dangerous fantasy twice hiking came shelter planning staying saw someone sitting cleaning gun softly backed away , another 5 miles get 'll freely admit i'm afraid guns i'm afraid people bring backcountry need form therapy necessarily analyst , maybe learn guns fear seems based ignorance false knowledge see person gun feel threatened \? legitimate basis \? first hand experience lends validity fears \? fears based mediated experience , e anecdotes others network news \? trust see lack legitimacy mediated inputs \? afraid people mentioned \? forgive , sound afraid point paranoia perhaps talk someone saying rude , think anyone fear deep baseless seems needs sort help living fear really sucks , even around people guns back country tell would fearful park ranger right front side arm clear view \? \? andy v
dbernard clesun central sun com \( dave bernard \) subject civil rights violations reply dbernard clesun central sun com organization sun microsystems lines 11 nntp posting host clesun central sun com eighth amendment 1 \) davidians suffered cruel unusual punishment f escaped imprisoned without bail without hearing happens time , next day , 'd doubt 'd luck point heard yet , held material witnesses
nntp posting host surt ifi uio thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio subject guns amex new name organization dept informatics , university oslo , norway lines 54 originator thomasp surt ifi uio never spoken ban guns america ! 've said seems many , especially many wrong hands would like reduce number , would without affecting good gun owners \? \? believe persons freedom n't believe n't pay europeans believe society individuals , give 'a make society work cars guns really mixed , tried make point like america , norway spaces cross get b , car essential parts guns hand essential norway , n't argue guns ban cars everyone believe hitler ww2 could avoided guns germany 30 's please read history ! discussion 1 banning weapons americans 2 making harder criminals get one \? \? change name wrote one reading first postings waco still think posters move post alt conspiracy make new newsgroup \( read first postings waco fire see mean \) batf get warrant gun search reasons \( child abuse instance \) n't people reading newsgroup access clari news \? \? \( seems rather mis uninformed \) \( clari news ruled censored corrupt facist goverment \? \? \) thomas parsli
jbs rti rti org subject clinton joins list genocidal socialist leaders organization joe 's bar grill lines 108 article 1993apr26 starbase trincoll edu \( \) writes people like cheapen constitution using defend sociopaths n't deserved get life chill paranoia n't care cults 's language problem problem religious fanatics \( claiming god little bit unsettling \) stockpiling several years' supply canned foods crime enough weapons hold company crime \( mention atf , ed first place \) talking 're going take care unbelievers crime also substantiation claim koresh said one never heard mentioned hear \? granted , moment , 'd done nothing wrong recognize respect moment \? one decided anyone claims god longer protection constitution \? happened separation church state \? atf discovers n't proper permits purchases failed pay taxes yet see evidence , either hear original warrant \( reason feb raid \) still sealed unsealed seem warrants taken initial raid several parents come forward demand previous charges child abuse interviews parents whose children compound point funny , n't seen interviews interesting social services agencies investigated koresh previous charges , found absolutely evidence abuse parents claimed psychological sexual abuse childrens' statements supported charges funny , n't remember hearing anything childrens' statements , either say heard \? heard none children left compound early seige exhibited signs typical abuse , physical mental newspaper national tv news also hear 's job batf fbi lay siege homes child abuse suspected \? thought 'no knock \? ' really n't heard anything clearly another guy minding business clearly \? please tell us koresh construed minding business batf raided place hell , give guns world n't bother anyone scary sort , n't think \? sort person 'd want daughter date \? n't think reason number one doubt legal statements made survivors logic amazes think grandparents died auschwitz would turning graves could hear throw away people 's protection law think 're scary sort person 'd want daughter date sort people suppose nazis thought grandparents \? probably sort 'd want little dating \( note made , ' well hesitate say trained killers \) next suppose 'll tell us exactly well trained killers killed \? fired atf 's little mistake , red white blue american defending home big brother shit n't fly said , right \? right anyone background shoot kill federal law enforcement officials good citizen whose crusade enjoys support someone different background , say someone n't claim messiah , book could shoot kill federal law enforcement officials would good citizen whose crusade enjoys support \? 's loose cannon opinion worth paper 's printed 're amazing , simply amazing joe
kde boi hp com \( keith emmen \) subject waco inside story \( ap \) \( atf burns \) organization hewlett packard boise , idaho x newsreader tin 1 1scd1 pl4 lines 9 dhartung chinet chi il us \( dan hartung \) writes dear , dear could come , probably could n't ever tear gassed , would n't quick condem
cescript mtu edu \( charles scripter \) subject clinton joins list genocidal socialist leaders nntp posting host fsh mtu edu organization michigan tech x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 66 joe , n't put username account \? mon , 26 apr 1993 17 48 19 gmt , joe kusmierczak mail trincoll edu wrote atf discovers n't proper permits purchases failed pay taxes claims discovered would hardly first time raided someone based incorrect evidence 'no knock \? ' really n't heard anything clearly knock , according associated press report 's something found collection excerpts article knoxville news sentinel final edition monday , march 1 , 1993 \( associated press \) waco , texas fierce gun battles erupted sunday 100 law officers tried arrest leader heavily armed religious cult least four federal agents two cult members reported killed gun battles began federal agents hidden livestock trailers stormed sect 's head quarters sunday morning , witnesses said agents warrants search guns explosives arrest howell , said les stanford atf washington witnesses said law officers stormed compound 's main home , throwing concussion grenades screaming come , three national guard helicopters approached moment , response shooting began think storming sect 's head throwing concussion grenades qualifies knock \( perhaps illegal assault \) another guy minding business hell , give guns world n't bother anyone scary sort , n't think \? sort person 'd want daughter date \? probably , neither fired atf 's little mistake , red white blue american defending home big brother shit n't fly anyone background shoot kill background \? prior crimes convicted \? federal law enforcement officials good citizen whose crusade sorry , batf federal tax enforcement officials 're police , police powers charles scripter cescript phy mtu edu dept physics , michigan tech , houghton , mi 49931 people cannot , always , well informed part wrong , proportion importance facts remain quiet misconceptions , lethargy , forerunner death public liberty thomas jefferson , nov 13 ,
lilak peaks enet dec com \( rod lilak \) subject bennett banned , bayonet lines 38 reply lilak dec com organization digital equipment corporation engineering wrote letter day empower america organization claims conservative issues , esp wake republican defeat last fall might consider organization create network support among conservatives individuals prep '96 run 'd close truth two leading bill bennett , former heartily supported bush 's semi auto import ban , wondered went far enough helped put big lie public 's eye jack kemp recently came support semi auto bans conservatives \? anyway thought interesting ran word perfect 's spell check letter came following corrections 1 banned 2 bayonet needless say , found choices rather amusing vs individualism ancient conflict men come close truth , destroyed time one civilization fell another civilization progress toward society privacy savage 's whole existence public , ruled laws tribe civilization process setting man free men ayn rand 's speech ' n't speak company hire
pngai adobe com \( phil ngai \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization adobe systems incorporated lines 14 article nate psygate psych indiana edu nate psygate psych indiana edu \( nathan engle \) writes admit ca n't cite specific , n't law purchasing grenade components assembling functioning units perhaps need one second ammendment arguments aside , i'm sure like idea private citizens hand grenades aware make grenade metal water pipes \? maybe outlaw hardware stores ammo reloading aware make firebomb gasoline \? etc justin ngai , 8 pounds , 2 ounces , born 4 24 93
0005111312 mcimail com \( peter nesbitt \) subject 's number call ca bills organization utexas mail news gateway lines 37 nntp posting host cs utexas edu made phone calls today , found call bill room sacramento state capitol , may order free charge bills currently pushed told fill order five bills per phone call , asked kindly told nice lady important , filled order ten california state bill room 916 445 subject need senate bill numbers house resolution numbers sorry forgot include previous letter also worry state bills ones currently aware sb 292 sb 247 sb 67 sb 89 sb 180 ab 117 ab 155 ab 166 ab 482 ab 501 thanks bob hale providing bill numbers ! peter nesbitt air traffic controller pnesbitt mcimail com oakland bay cbr600f2 pilot nra member w 41 magnum carrier hey ! fixed sig file !
pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) subject batf achieved objective wants move organization university tennessee , knoxville x newsreader nnr vm 1 3 2 lines 31 article cronkite central sun com dbernard clesun central sun com \( dave bernard \) writes article convex com , langston convex com \( kevin langston \) writes feustel netcom com \( david feustel \) writes everyone discussing batf n't missing point batf wanted destroy koresh everything consistent objective done , 've declared victory flying flag ruins regardless started firefight fire , see flag nothing arrogant arrogant , plain bad taste though defeated difficult foe , done honor understand reno batf n't bentsen , texas boy , believe \? bentsen treasury much front reno \? hiding behind strings \? batf got sat pretty early initial shooting , pretty much become fbi 's show \( even batf guy stopped showing next speaker daily press conferences \) david veal university tennessee division continuing education pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu still remember way laughed pushed elevator shaft sometimes get thinking n't love anymore weird al yankovic
jpsb neosoft com \( jim shirreffs \) subject waco questions organization neosoft communications services \( 713 \) 684 5900 distribution usa lines 18 u government become garrotte around necks citizens garrotte , people struggle breathe air freedom , government tightens stranglehold possible outcomes point death government elimination personal freedom think little extreme , concerned couple things 've seen lately seems government beginning enforce political correctness first king verdict incorrect hell protection double jeopardy , try cops bd 's far tell n't anything wrong nothing would justify end subjected simply incorrect ca n't help wonder 's next jim shirreffs speak
subject repeat violent criminals reform often impossible \? kim39 scws8 harvard edu \( john kim \) distribution world organization harvard university science center nntp posting host scws8 harvard edu lines 34 boston globe , thursday april 22 1993 p 44 walpole man , 32 , guilty rape , n h walpole man charged kidnapping mother two home , raping beating , pleaded guilty roger santaw jr also plead ed guilty attempted escape cheshire county jail last win ter santaw , 32 scheduled sentenced next week rape last fall came six months santaw released , spent 15 years rape commit ted 16 \( ap \) end article reactions \? enough time \? penalty \? btw , walpole town massachusetts course , new hampshire close j case kim kim39 husc harvard edu
cbnewsb cb att com \( mr x \) subject rewording second amendment \( ideas \) organization twilight zone lines 51 article 1993apr21 ousrvr oulu fi dfo vttoulu tko vtt fi \( foxvog douglas \) writes means would support ban narrow enough good stated implied try asking nerve gas mustard gas well defined poisonous gasses individually banned shown use related weaponry licenses available research purposes chemicals laughable licenses \? right would need license possess chlorine gas \? weapons grade poison would breaking law , say , pour spot cat pissed floor \? reaction ammonia pure chlorine gas go jail \? \? would need license possess chemical agents \? nicotine \? deadly poison , rather fast acting must become licensed tobacco \? nicotine , even poison \? need license possess type \? raid \( tm \) \? black flag \? gasoline \? benzene \? \( violent poison \) \? go jail possessing tomatoes went bad \? mom pop qc lab use \( mustard gas \) lot analysis certain non prescription pharmaceuticals \? wish use potassium cyanide recover gold aqua \? license \? would need license possess beryllium , perhaps poisonous non radioactive metal \? beryllium copper alloy \? need license could used make powerful explosive devices one ira recently detonated , killing 1 45 \? vinegar without license \? hydrogen peroxide \? line drawn \? lawyer , ideas could certainly basis definitions yes could , good ideas \? needed \? shred sanity \? scarcely , trust andy v
pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) subject newbie organization university tennessee , knoxville x newsreader nnr vm 1 3 2 lines 16 article msu oscs montana edu msu oscs montana edu writes first time network , concerned incident waco refrain stating opinions read faq could someone tell get \? must say believe govt wrong actions took situation far know , faq tpg somebody working one , think died committee david veal university tennessee division continuing education pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu still remember way laughed pushed elevator shaft sometimes get thinking n't love anymore weird al yankovic
rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu \( ryan c scharfy \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 35 article apache dtcc edu bob hobbes dtcc edu \( bob rahe \) writes article 2099 rwing uucp pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) writes want see independent investigation , full prosecuting subpoena powers felony prosecution felony acts found fat chance , bet bet justice dept internal investigation turn , say independent prosecutor , , maybe ol' mr walsh something useful \( right , fat chance \) i'm responding risk misreading response , tell fellow conservatives give , attacking reno clinton atf fbi may botched operation , n't kill anybody never shot first david koresh lunatic followers combined q geraldo audience kids probably would fucked social rejects go freshman dances high school , never seen \( except maybe band \) prom , show like animals boarding ark 's bowling till 3 morning \( \? \? happen \? \? ! ! \) anyway , point janet reno bill clinton following advice trained , law enforcement officials experts fields 'd rather leaders micro manage every crisis comes along 'd really see trouble matter party ideology president \( er mean \) attorney general ryan c scharfy rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu
awe mit edu \( ari epstein \) subject 's next \? mormons jews \? organization mit lines 32 distribution world nntp posting host mit edu article viking ponderous cc iastate edu , viking iastate edu \( dan sorenson \) writes netcom com mcclary netcom com \( michael mcclary \) writes lds rlds philosophy religions strayed true church set jesus , god judge merits addition , rlds also contend \( lds may well \) ignorance true way \( tm \) excuse condemned tought way rejected short , lds rlds suffer everybody lutherans buddhists , secure knowledge though wrong penalized ignorance believe quite correct understanding lds engaged project convert souls deceased persons religions , order spare damnation gain entrance heaven end , church compiled extensive records , know names people convert long article new yorker years ago described lds research methods detail \( example , researchers pay visits local native learn names people long dead \) sounds like sort lie would made unusual religion , new yorker story convinced truth \( new yorker used extensive fact checking , story quite detailed \) ari
jtrascap nyx cs du edu \( jim trascapoulos \) subject denver post classifieds assault weapons organization university denver , dept math comp sci lines 51 boulder colorado edu \( eric e snyder \) writes came across following notice denver post classified morning \( april 26 , 1993 \) begin quote notice denver post longer knowingly accept advertisement buy sell assault weapons denver post finds use assault weapons poses threat health , safety , security reader end quote suppose post within rights refuse ads however second sentence noxious , feel compelled bring attention p g c g readership called post classified number \( 825 \) expressed according supervisor spoke , post reacting public complaints regarding running assult weapon ads however , paper keeping track reaction change policy strongly encourage denver post readers call make feelings k eric e snyder department mcd biology making feet childrens' sho university colorado , boulder boulder , colorado ! appreciate post intermediary sales right bear arms one rights constitution , assault weapons go way beyond , rather \( imho \) , natural right america ask family boy shot back september papers full stories child assult weapon angelic face \( post \) committed murder without ever thinking got get control applaud post jim trascapoulos jtrascap nyx cs du edu , size id wear \?
karl dixie com \( karl \) subject truth waco organization dixie communications public access mouth south distribution usa lines 74 dhartung chinet chi il us \( dan hartung \) writes jgd dixie com \( john de armond \) writes tanks collapsing interior walls ceilings putting people great risk dear , dear could come logic , jews europe 1930 's cause holocaust hitler told leave n't brought whole thing say , could come germany group instruction kind koresh aids tank invasion \( referring kind suicide pact counter assault efforts \) 's ultimately irrelevant lit fire ample opportunity leave jews europe 1930 's anyway , outsiders rarely see abuse 's secretive thing go court documents case mistrial california n't see evidence abuse therefore must taking place \? point , irrelevant case atf charge investigating child abuse one ever held wills could left time people murdered fire choices exactly choice obvious contradiction statements made f b never judged religion , actions actions judging \? refusal let government control lives \? refusal submit unconstitutional laws \? refusal behave like cowards \? heros could taken cowardly way surrendered alamo , come stayed say choice problem everyone chooses act like dog face odds point , certainly right lived quiet , religious life claimed , would raid , siege , deaths instead , chose courses action every turn least stupid , irrational first stockpile weapons second shoot federal agents third stay inside bull , fact , live quiet , religious life claimed warrant issued stockpiled weapons law many guns want yet \( except virginia \) warrant issued gun parts size half dollar certainly worth lives many people , n't think \? n't blame cop shoots kid pointed toy weapon , n't think fbi deserves blame case forget business certainly blame would trade liberty karl security deserves neither american research group , inc karl dixie com
viking iastate edu \( dan sorenson \) subject guns amex new name organization iowa state university , ames ia lines 107 thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio writes remember , tom \? hope 'll respond , seem voice reason \( 've recieving fan mail , naturally ego inflated late \) , hope make points never spoken ban guns america ! 've said seems many , especially many wrong hands argument cannot remove people need restricting remove people n't fairly simple problem , given size numbers agree \? believe criminals , particularly violent criminals , firearms problem making law without upon rights vast majority nobody seems able , doubt anybody norway either thus , left philosophical difference safety justify restricting many \? say , others say yes would like reduce number , would without affecting good gun owners \? \? provide method cannot abused \? doubt believe persons freedom n't believe n't pay course contention contention much one pay europeans believe society individuals , give 'a make society work giving little makes americans wary seen argument might remember chamberlain gave little particular fascist short asshole , appeasement worked might work instances , n't work others , since cannot predict future must cautious using actions history failure cars guns really mixed , tried make point like america , norway spaces cross get b , car essential parts guns hand essential norway , n't argue guns ban cars cars essential norway usa i'm willing bet neighbors would willing drive anywhere wanted go price thus , cars essential transportation however , arguments presented show , since cars used kill far people guns usa , makes much sense restrict cars guns one defines essential often depends upon one willing go service look raw data , comparisons individually weighed everyone believe hitler ww2 could avoided guns germany 30 's please read history ! depends upon populace willing desert storm proved , even armed populace wo n't revolt even given chance still , would hitler done armed populace \? wonder , first acts confiscate firearms points history show dictators overthrown arms hands populace thus , 're left wondering hitler would overthrown king george unlucky keeping usa colony one argue sides one also live action discussion 1 banning weapons americans 2 making harder criminals get one \? \? 2 , far proposals curtail 2 wound enforcing 1 well wish logical change name , part , purely jest merely pointed similar backgrounds racially , wholly different backgrounds politically thought would underscore point cultures different despite similar heritage batf get warrant gun search reasons \( child abuse instance \) batf enforce gun alcohol violations child abuse matter individual states local authorities n't people reading newsgroup access clari news \? \? \( seems rather mis uninformed \) hierarchy paid feed many sites people get reason , suspect money , censorship , main reason get alt sex site \? ca n't read censorship legal fears , differences show , usa watch murder every fifteen seconds yet breasts forbidden television dan sorenson , dod 1066 z1dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu censors read , say n't blame usenet post exotic , distant machines meet exciting , unusual people flame
access digex com \( carl aron \) subject waco shootout highlights total irresponsibility organization national cheng kung university cc guest 1 edu tw lines 13 nntp posting host access digex net i'm sure thread popped , 've never thought waiting periods anything training competence ca n't valid reason gun ca n't wait days think plenty bad reasons wanting waiting period want buy gun kill right , 've crossed state line buy gun illegally ca n't afford spend night , etc i'm big fan guns , feel important guard american 's rights hand , license regulate many things without seriously anyones constitutional rights carl
irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \( brent irvine \) subject atf burns dividian ranch update distribution usa organization university illinois urbana champaign lines 27 article jha noose ecn purdue edu garrod dynamo ecn purdue edu \( david garrod \) writes article 1993apr27 news acns nwu edu brice merle acns nwu edu \( benjamin rice \) writes reason fire department could n't fight fire bullets throughout area koresh large arsenal maybe feds would decided scene would useless waste taxes potentially dangerous different fire broken waco , come fire department compound area 49 days , sent away two days fbi attack \? \( whatever comment hazards fighting fire midst ammo cooking \) maybe fire department loudly complaining whole time diverted duties , fbi said fine go home 'll call need million things could happened , n't know btw , first time heard waco fd scene last 2 days 's source \( curiosity \) \? personal opinions \? , brent irvine yes think irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \?
mjr tis com \( marcus j ranum \) subject community spirited drug dealers \( \) organization trusted information systems , inc lines 20 nntp posting host sol tis com sylvain netcom com \( nicholas sylvain \) writes value gun shops city 's many fine community spirited drug dealers arm fine posting , exception particular lines hope n't really think average drug dealer actually purchases gun \( \) legal source matter fact , know several shootings recently guns purchased baltimore , broadway favorite place get cheap popular pieces popular referring kinds guns local youth gangs like pistol grip shotguns , cheap , tec 9s hate poke hole bubble , referring specific , specific incidents questions \? mjr
cmort ncoast org \( christopher morton \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! reply cmort ncoast org \( christopher morton \) organization north coast public access nix , cleveland , oh lines 45 quoted nate psygate psych indiana edu nate psygate psych indiana edu \( nathan engle \) people wrong first place \? ca n't figure assembled frightening arsenal weapons circumventing laws intended prevent buildup later used weapons kill representatives federal government i'm sure frightened saw batf officers closing , retrospect ca n't see subsequent could expected improve situation laws circumvent \? frightening n't crime people afraid young black males n't make mere status young black male crime batf admitted leading throwing evidence properly identified law enforcement personnel circumstances , persons found acting within legal rights exercise self defense unidentified armed intruders point place little credibility charges child abuse molestation , would remind branch davidians n't ones burying dead charges anyway , since batf absolutely jurisdiction matters anyway course n't stopped making spurious charges , existence mythical meth labs course whole cult thing indicates level contempt 1st amendment sure crazy , , wrong \? attempted stage armed resistance federal authorities conditions placed dozens unarmed innocent people line fire armed resistance , least initially , may well legal 're like bunch educated , new york jewish aclu lawyers fighting eliminate school prayer public schools arkansas holly silva
cleveland freenet edu \( bill mcdonald \) subject hb 1776 passes texas house ! organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 34 reply cleveland freenet edu \( bill mcdonald \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu previous article , dlb5404 tamuts tamu edu \( daryl biberdorf \) says memory , today 's houston chronicle \( 27 april 1993 \) reported hb 1776 passed texas house representatives \( approximately , memory \) 95 votes 45 votes bill \? however , effort go \( 's cover ass \) mode , wrote bill way make law subject referendum november however , paper reported actually unconstitutional texas constitution , allows constitutional amendments , plain old laws court permit referendum bill probably go effect little fanfare subject texas senate 's voting bill well time start calling state senators ! ! daryl daryl biberdorf n5gjm biberdorf tamu edu sola gratia sola fide sola scriptura mcd bill mcdonald le sas que la ne st louis , mo point heart ! sbc com reasons reason cannot understand
pyron skndiv dseg ti com \( dillon pyron \) subject sig lines 21 nntp posting host skndiv dseg ti com reply pyron skndiv dseg ti com organization ti dseg vax support sig generated mail posts robin hood school financing plan wherein property rich school districts portion tax revenue taken given property poor districts plan equalize per student spending imho , however , disaster waiting happen taxes go 50 districts lose control tax money spent districts election saturday along city council , school board unfinished senate term exercise one right , i'm going exercise another ! dillon pyron opinions expressed ti dseg lewisville vax support sender unless otherwise stated \( 214 \) 462 3556 \( i'm \) \( 214 \) 492 4656 \( i'm home \) texans vote robin hood need pyron skndiv dseg ti com solutions , gestures padi dm 54909
bixledn eng auburn edu \( david n bixler \) subject repeat violent criminals reform often nntp posting host eng auburn edu reply bixledn eng auburn edu organization auburn university engineering lines 42 article husc3 harvard edu , kim39 scws8 harvard edu \( john kim \) writes boston globe , thursday april 22 1993 p 44 walpole man , 32 , guilty rape , n h walpole man charged kidnapping mother two home , raping beating , pleaded guilty roger santaw jr also plead ed guilty attempted escape cheshire county jail last win ter santaw , 32 scheduled sentenced next week rape last fall came six months santaw released , spent 15 years rape commit ted 16 \( ap \) end article reactions \? enough time \? penalty \? btw , walpole town massachusetts course , new hampshire close j case kim kim39 husc harvard edu women might say , death life , hope parole \? david n bixler auburn university standard disclaimers apply
unity ncsu edu \( henry e \) subject bomb laws \( atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! \) organization north carolina state university lines 13 article news cso uiuc edu irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \( brent irvine \) writes primary purpose fertilizer explode kill people maybe law saying cannot use stuff make bomb would good \? even better , let 's pass law making illegal kill people bombs sort henry p thanks explaining primary purpose fertilizer stop worrying world trade towers bombing
dbernard clesun central sun com \( dave bernard \) subject censored free america \? node organization sun microsystems lines 20 distribution world reply dbernard clesun central sun com nntp posting host clesun central sun com article 1993apr23 mixcom mixcom com write article constitution gives right revolution things seem going \? \? hmmm peter g white , president , synthesis 93 inc milwaukee , wisconsin , u peter white mixcom com dunno 'll find constitution , document american liberty , kids taught school , declaration independence document fact justification right revolution , duty revolution people , government gets oppressive radical document , recommend americans especially office read year
r1328 vmcms csuohio edu subject gun buy back organization csu lines 161 thu , 22 apr 1993 17 37 34 gmt , r1328 vmcms csuohio edu wrote firearms fifth leading cause unintentional deaths among children ages 14 rkba archive , rkba total firearm deaths children \( 1 14 \) 587 \( 1988 \) one smallest causes deaths children cars , falls , burns , drowning , food ingestion much larger cause deaths \( 7 , 988 \) , firearms 6th leading cause , drowning choking food \( least 1988 \) sorry charles according national safety council , accident facts , 1991 1990 , gun accidents fifth leading cause accidental death children ages 14 n't understand ratio accidental deaths important guns n't kill many children car accidents difference severity 1 , 000 deaths 10 , 000 deaths \? difference rational person would address leading cause first , address lesser causes later thinking screwed , n't even know respond rational person would concentrate motor vehicle deaths , attempt affect childhood falls , , gunshot injuries , etc \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? called rational person , \( using definition \) , attempting affect leading causes deaths adults aged 25 64 would worry cancer , would try decrease lesser causes heart disease , injuries , stroke , suicide , liver disease , chronic lung disease , homicide , hiv infection , diabetes oh , okay charles , makes lot sense tell charles , 'll call heart foundation suicide tell acting rational go home addressing lesser causes death call local police homicide department , liver foundation diabetes foundation tell stop addressing lesser causes please , quit wasting time silly shit charles 've got idea charles , n't start talk politics group talk politics fall group \? talk politics guns n't confuse issue social problem may claim many victims another , try address \? n't agree i'm posting p g debate supposed severity causes childhood deaths really getting sick respond irrational statements people assume someone wants discuss youth gun violence unintentional youth gun deaths trying make political issue assumed humane person would concerned 10 year old got hold parents gun bedroom drawer accidently blew away one friends humane person keeps firearm house 10 year old would also teach child safely handle firearm ignorance greatest enemy charles , tend confuse issue take things context purposes statement responded actually reference previous post another person , like , expressed concern making youth gun violence priority guess , maybe humane person rational person could interchangeable huh \? would defined person addresses social problem causes greatest number childhood deaths case , i'm extremely glad inhumane irrational well joe , suggest talk center prevent handgun violence sources information confirms data \? folks well known misrepresenting facts perhaps verify data uniform crime report sorry charles , fbi uniform crime report well known misrepresenting facts insist , according 1990 ucr , firearm murders youngsters 19 increased 125 percent 1984 1990 national center health statistics good enough \? state every day , 12 american children ages 19 killed gun accidents , suicides , homicides many wounded national pediatric trauma registry \? say gunshot wounds children ages 16 nearly doubled major urban areas 1987 1990 also doubt american academy pediatrics charles \? \? \? state gunshot wounds among children urban areas increased 300 1986 1988 charles , hope n't need convinced youth increasingly victims gun injuries easy access guns n't realize fact , \( n't care go cdc fbi data , go homes , schools , streets kids take poll \) , i'm going bother try convince obvious ruled idea discussing issue sane fashion focused trying make gun control political discussion really n't want centers disease control firearm statistics \? firearms disease \? charles , 's obvious know nothing cdc n't study cancer heart disease 've got news , interpersonal gun violence epidemic 1984 , surgeon general c everett declared gun violence much public health problem cancer , heart disease , auto accidents greatly underestimate presence guns lives youths lives youths schools \? know number youths firearms present lives quite appropriate teach children safely handle firearms \( presence , right \? \) trying say \? innuendo reminds listening bill clinton f k said anything teaching children safely handle firearm charles \? \? \? future , going post p g jump previous discussion , please read entire posting , 1 sentence decide respond hell saying \? \? \? 're wasting time space trying make political gun control issue discussion n't cphv reports 135 , 000 youth bring guns school daily 400 , 000 bring guns school least year would n't trust statistics without independent verification cdc estimates 1 0f 25 high school students carried gun school least 1990 based cphv statistics \? based ucr \? based \? cdc also says 1 2 million elementary aged , latch key children \( kids come home school empty house \) , access guns home therefore \? purpose claim \? charles buddy , i'm getting really tired live planet mars \? \? \? physicist , realize probably n't come contact many youth , really think need make trip local urban high school discover joy guns schools addition spend minutes talking kids ask ever heard gunshots neighborhoods , whether know anyone shot , whether know anyone gun , whether ever held gun , whether ever shot believe charles , independent verification rodney w thomas r1328 vmcms csuohio edu urban child research center cleveland state university cleveland , oh
v2110a vm temple edu \( richard hoenes \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization temple university x newsreader nnr vm 1 3 2 lines 29 article 1993apr27 synapse bms com hambidge bms com writes article news cso uiuc edu , irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \( brent irvine \) writes article 1993apr27 uoft02 utoledo edu steiner jupiter cse utoledo edu \( jason 'think ! ' steiner \) writes james p dusek \( dusek rtsg mot com \) writes garrod dynamo ecn purdue edu \( david garrod \) writes , used cs would harm children really hope 're sarcastic , 've seen many stupid things said complete seriousness 's hard tell without smiley actually believe 's cs gas discriminate based age target \? yes , gas used mild concentration formulation compared stuff know fact \? know \? , making things flamebait \? fbi claimed begining n't standard use tear gas know \? assume flamebait \? richard
fraser sfu ca \( learning center \) subject rewording second amendment \( ideas \) organization simon fraser university , burnaby , b c , canada lines 17 well regulated militia , necessary security free state , right people keep bear arms , shall infringed know canadian , n't much stand , think right keep bear arms important maintaining free society america still place live earth \( anyone head straight \) stay way people stand publicly believe ! ! remember , stand nothing 'll fall anything including well meaning socialists , canada later ted
oldham icd ab com \( daniel r oldham \) subject propaganda nntp posting host icd ab com organization allen bradley company , inc distribution usa lines 13 saw cnn independent team examined waco fire reported started inside bds question bd 's claiming 's impartial team team leader wife one batf agents ha ! goverment continues 's propaganda secure line daniel r oldham oldham icd ab com
eeb1 quads uchicago edu \( e elizabeth bartley \) subject cost gun waiting periods \? \? \? reply eeb1 midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 35 article access digex net access digex com \( carl aron \) writes i'm sure thread popped , 've never thought waiting periods anything training competence ca n't valid reason gun ca n't wait days ca n't think valid reason gun ca n't wait \? either limited imagination strange definition word valid reasons might want gun right 're korean la riot started nearby neighborhood 've received death threat broken arm fear life stay 's said 'll kill leave psychopath breaking people 's houses neighborhood robbing killing people inside violent mugger operating route take get night job lots dangers might wo n't wait waiting period purchase gun pro choice anti roe e elizabeth bartley abortions safe , legal , early , rare
dlb5404 tamuts tamu edu \( daryl biberdorf \) subject hb 1776 passes texas house ! organization texas university , college station lines 14 nntp posting host tamuts tamu edu hb 1776 concealed carry texas provides licensing citizens carry concealed firearms pass instruction course \( 30 hours , remember correctly \) , pay 140 fee \( good 4 years \) , meet several criteria related personal character , etc n't agree criteria , feel 's high time pro gun types fight way hci et al getting incremental changes law daryl daryl biberdorf n5gjm biberdorf tamu edu sola gratia sola fide sola scriptura
garrod dynamo ecn purdue edu \( david garrod \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization purdue university engineering computer network distribution usa lines 22 article news cso uiuc edu irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \( brent irvine \) writes article 1993apr27 uoft02 utoledo edu steiner jupiter cse utoledo edu \( jason 'think ! ' steiner \) writes james p dusek \( dusek rtsg mot com \) writes garrod dynamo ecn purdue edu \( david garrod \) writes , used cs would harm children really hope 're sarcastic , 've seen many stupid things said complete seriousness 's hard tell without smiley actually believe 's cs gas discriminate based age target \? yes , gas used mild concentration formulation compared stuff heard delivered high concentration counteract wind 30 mph blowing away source quoted low concentration \?
aa229 freenet carleton ca \( steve birnbaum \) subject freedom u reply aa229 freenet carleton ca \( steve birnbaum \) organization national capital freenet lines 27 previous article , jaa12 cunixa cc columbia edu \( john absood \) says never wise confuse freedom speech freedom racism violent deragatory unfortunate many fail understand crucial distinction could n't agree canada anti hate law exists punish spread false propaganda \( lies \) purpose putting another group actually law david irving hopefully found guilty due denial holocaust 's bad useless centre policy research n't canada 'd set nice precedent law applies cyberspace steve internet aa229 freenet carleton ca fidonet 1 163 109 18 mossad qube ocunix ca opinions associated anything , including head
rj3s virginia edu \( get thee nunnery \) subject deir yassin organization university virginia lines 65 hm cs brown edu writes article ere umontreal ca aurag ere umontreal ca \( aurag hassan \) writes trying say massacres deir yassin sabra shatila \? let tell good jokes thing like jewish killing wwii palestinians davidians years fact one killed war time place people die one gets killed maybe also n't die vietnam war killed american napalm 's maybe jews liked gas chambers one forced get may thought like cocaine \? think \? n't stupid say \? well stupid said next time want lie intelligently sincerely hassan arab civilians die dir yassin massacre first , village housed many armed troops secondly , irgun stern fighters absolutely intentions killing civilians village attacked military significance fact , warning given occupants village leave attack begin rational standards , dir yassin massacre killing unintentional village housed arab snipers arab troops thus attacked military significance attacked intentions killing civilians even compare dir yassin , 120 arabs died , holocaust absurd irgun want kill civilians village almost 1000 inhabitants , survived harry bullshit deir yassin unprovoked attack part jews , massacre defines best opinion village deir yassin pact jews , peace pact , irgun purposely broke agreement order scare palestinians might grant village housed armed arabs doubt nothing archives available literature indicates motivating force amongst irgun deir yassin massacre part strategy intimidate palestinians flee jewish homeland , contrary belief , many civilians killed deir yassin later advertized jews perpetrated useful getting many palestinians leave palestinians rightfully scared , want another deir yassin i'm necessarily condemning israelites atrocities committed part arabs israelophiles careful thinking good guys middle east arab jew suck equally
ohayon jcpltyo jcpl co jp \( tsiel ohayon \) subject rejoinder questions israelis organization james capel pacific limited , tokyo japan lines 31 article 1993apr26 freenet carleton ca aa229 freenet carleton ca \( steve birnbaum \) writes sb oh yeah , israel really ready expand borders holiest day sb year \( yom kippur \) arabs attacked 1973 oh wait , sb chose omit war perhaps 100 supports exact sb opposite point trying make \? n't think 's sb war hit israel hardest also , 1967 sb egypt , israel kicked un force 1948 arabs sb refused accept existance israel based borders set sb united nations 1956 , egypt closed red sea israeli sb shipping , clear antagonistic act 1982 attack response sb years constant shelling terrorist organizations golan sb heights children murdered time terrorists israel sb finally nowhere see war israel started sb borders could expanded agree write except terrorist orgs shelling israel golan heights 1982 , rather lebanon golan heights held israel since 1967 , therefore plo could shelling israel , unless something aware tsiel 8 8 tsiel ohayon jcpl co jp receive e mail , please let employer may know soon possible , possible opinions , ! two percent zero almost nothing
bdm cs rit edu \( brendan mckay \) subject deir yassin organization rochester institute technology , rochester , ny lines 52 nntp posting host virginia article hm angell cs brown edu hm cs brown edu \( harry mamaysky \) writes arab civilians die dir yassin massacre first , village housed many armed troops nobody ever produced evidence appear several long published accounts irgun participants even irgun propagandists make claim secondly , irgun stern fighters absolutely intentions killing civilians several members irgun attacking party , including leader , deposited personal declarations irgun archives \( institute , tel aviv \) state lehi proposed village conquest seems begin plan , however willingness many attackers seriously consider possibility serves instructive character evidence village attacked military significance haganah tried get irgun attack village real military significance , considered hard soft target deir yassin chosen instead fact , warning given occupants village leave attack begin intention \( probably originating begin \) give warning loudspeaker truck got stuck ditch reaching village everyone knows rational standards , dir yassin massacre rational standards , posting b cpu killing unintentional village housed arab snipers arab troops thus attacked military significance attacked intentions killing civilians lie repeated still lie even compare dir yassin , 120 arabs died , holocaust absurd irgun want kill civilians village almost 1000 inhabitants , survived harry brendan
bdm cs rit edu \( brendan mckay \) subject dir yassin nntp posting host virginia organization rochester institute technology , rochester , ny lines 50 article hm angell cs brown edu hm cs brown edu \( harry mamaysky \) writes myths facts , leonard j davis , near east research inc , 1989 pp 108 109 unlike plo 's almost exclusive focus civilian targets , 100 troups irgun stern group struck deir yassin april 10 , 1948 , targeted village military importance deir yassin road jerusalem , arabs since facts myths n't even know deir yassin , pay attention rest says \? blockaded , housed iraqi troups palestinian irregulars snipers based deir yassin constant threat jewish citizens jerusalem arab civilians killed deir yassin , attack conform propaganda picture arabs tried paint number arabs killed generally reported 250 1983 , however , eric silver guardian \( britain \) interviewed survivor , sammour , testified 116 population 800 1000 killed three days massacre , ' sammour explained , five clans deir yassin met moslem offices jerusalem made list people found \( alive \) went names nothing happend since 1948 make think figure wrong ' account eric silver valid point f makes find together evidence analysis silver 's biography begin also silver 's book find documentary evidence nearly everything else f 's account pure bullshit unlike plo 's deliberate attacks civilians , killing civilians deir yassin premeditated attackers left open escape corridor village 200 residents left unharmed remaining arabs feigned surrender fired jewish troops , attackers killed arab soldiers civilians indiscriminately independent observers told guardian among bodies found arab men disguised women pretty disgusting guardian told one two feeble old men dressed women 's clothing pathetic attempt escape death see silver 's book brendan
pgf5 cunixb cc columbia edu \( peter garfiel freeman \) subject uva nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu organization columbia university lines 10 wow ! 's sad see university virginia begun produce breed jew haters self hating jews ! roar lion roar
hamid mcrcim mcgill edu \( hamid reza mohammadi daniali \) subject happy birthday israel ! originator hamid dali mcrcim mcgill edu nntp posting host dali mcrcim mcgill edu organization mcgill research centre intelligent machines lines 11 article news cso uiuc edu , eshneken ux4 cso uiuc edu \( edward shnekendorf \) writes israel happy 45th birthday ! anybody information number people killed israel 44 happy year \? hamid
ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) subject freedom u organization university virginia lines 23 astein nysernet org writes freedom speech mean others compelled give one means speak publicly systems regulations prohibiting dissemination racist bigoted messages accounts issue apparently , 's case virginia edu , since still posting alan h stein astein israel nysernet org first i'm still baffled possibly could found racist argument freedom speach mention names , nationalities , countries let alone races right virginia edu thought police like israel nysernet org seems n't know guys getting israelis getting means speak publicly virginia edu lets every student regardless opinion speak mind virginia edu true founding father , thomas jefferson author bill rights , allowing freedom speach sorry guys israel hard time concept
ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) subject freedom u organization university virginia lines 17 deleted actually law david irving hopefully found guilty due denial holocaust 's bad useless centre policy research n't canada 'd set nice precedent law applies cyberspace steve internet aa229 freenet carleton ca fidonet 1 163 109 18 mossad qube ocunix ca opinions associated anything , including head well canada wrong us aclu would made sure repressive laws found unconstitutional think church n't find galileo 's perception universe offensive
ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) subject israel 's expansion ii organization university virginia lines 57 tichauer valpso hanse de writes reporting events doubt propaganda machine goering later , somebody informed gross mistake , none guys noticed gross mistake 'cause n't clue noticed corrected doubt would ever noticed i'm sure learned history nazi germany austria family actually 've read books taken courses subject ah yes like lived greater trying make comparisons israels politics nazi german austrian politics shows degree ignorance \( high \) , intellect \( low \) , humanity \( none \) guys funny 's funny see people lose control start name calling realize point respect anybody long respects discusses civilized manner would never say anybody israel politics could fooled n't know call civil libertarian \( never heard \) know one thing think like , civil libertarians new denomination antisemites may civil libertarians come word group learn beyer right \( civil libertarians antisemites \) understand individual liberties \( freedom speach , religion etc \) could thing never heard actually , civil libertarians believe fundamental freedoms belong human beings would support jews nazis anyone else tries oppress would support arabs israelis oppressive regimes \( iraq etc \) btw , could n't care less andi beyer well actually mentioned things appreciate 1 politeness 2 stimulating conversation 3 red rose 4 new york june good tune 5 6 really angry funny people need complete list n't hesitate ask
jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) subject desertification negev organization department redundancy department lines 67 article igc apc org center policy research cpr igc apc org writes contrary ben gurion 's assertion , must affirmed 26 years british mandate palestine centuries previous , productive human presence found parts negev desert hills valleys southern negev well fertile north bedouin arabs fact , productive human presence desert , centuries , produced one greatest civilizations human history created wheel , printing press , light bulb , post modern architecture , broadway theatre nuclear power , well real desertification negev , mainly southern part , occurred israel 's bedouin 's cultivated lands right , elias negev veritable garden eden evil jews turned rain turned horrible desert part international jewish conspiracy say , call turn rain ny , right \? nowadays , majority 12 , 800 square kilometer negev , represents 62 percent state israel \( pre 1967 borders \) , beyond recognition yeah , deserts rarely look like garden eden main new occupiers formerly bedouin negev israeli army nature reserves authority , whose chief role prevent bedouin roaming former pasture lands nature reserves people heavily armed anti tank weaponry need nature reserves vast industrial zones , including nuclear reactors dumping grounds chemical , nuclear wastes nothing like vast nuclear reactors comes hiding air attack least saddam sense hide cbn plants baby milk factories israeli jews negev today cultivate less half surface area cultivated bedouin 1948 , jewish pastoral activity indeed , many older people recall fondly lovely tomatoes oranges bedouin exported form garden eden fact , region used supply entire world bananas , jews pushed business onto banana republics elias , 're stupid postings source considerable amusement please n't stop might even go back watching tv jake livni jake bony1 bony com ten years , george bush american occupied new york replaced jimmy carter opinions employer opinions standard failed president
ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) subject uva organization university virginia lines 2 think kind uncalled blanket statement cause censorship mr jefferson 's university wrong
dfs doe carleton ca \( david f skoll \) subject israel 's expansion ii organization dept electronics , carleton university lines 26 \( please note followup \) 1993apr27 virginia edu ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) writes guys funny 's funny see people lose control start name calling realize point comparing israel nazi germany name calling lowest kind please n't disingenuous civil libertarians would support jews nazis anyone else tries oppress would support arabs israelis oppressive regimes \( iraq etc \) civil libertarians make distinction nazis israel \? would say iraqis like nazis \? make distinctions , injustices equally evil , world completely evil place case , may well give right david f skoll
dzk cs brown edu \( danny keren \) subject israel 's expansion ii organization brown university department computer science lines 17 nntp posting host cs brown edu someone elaborate little libertarian movement \? going draw conclusions small sample , far recall two self described libertarians posting seems 1 \) incredibly ignorant 2 \) incredibly arrogant 3 \) want get people angry 4 \) posses lousy sense humor 5 \) write jump topic topic without logical connection topics 6 \) describe intelligent knowledgeable , although everything posters points opposite 7 \) childish campaign smear libertarian party \? danny keren
ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) subject israel 's expansion ii organization university virginia lines 21 jake bony1 bony com writes article 1993apr25 3411 virginia edu ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) writes waldo cybernet cse fau edu writes jews suffered wwii , beloved perished tortured suffered humans suffered emotionally , jews many others suffered physically i'm waiting andi tell us african americans start paying compensation white americans suffered slave owners problem language \? said everyone suffered emotionally victims holocaust n't implying anyone suffered actual victims neither implying wrongdoing part jews cause holocaust wrong guys \? regardless one says keep hearing want hear
steven surya cs ucla edu \( steven berson \) subject freedom u nntp posting host surya cs ucla edu organization ucla , computer science department lines 17 ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) writes virginia edu true founding father , thomas jefferson author bill rights , allowing freedom speach sorry guys israel hard time concept jefferson author bill rights history books n't , jefferson might group think enumerating rights necessary cheers , steve steven berson ucla computer science department \( 310 \) 825 3189 steven cs ucla edu los angeles , ca 90024 1596
pgf5 cunixb cc columbia edu \( peter garfiel freeman \) subject freedom u nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply pgf5 cunixb cc columbia edu \( peter garfiel freeman \) organization columbia university lines 36 article 1993apr27 cs ucla edu steven surya cs ucla edu \( steven berson \) writes ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) writes virginia edu true founding father , thomas jefferson author bill rights , allowing freedom speach sorry guys israel hard time concept jefferson author bill rights history books n't , jefferson might group think enumerating rights necessary cheers , steve steven berson ucla computer science department \( 310 \) 825 3189 steven cs ucla edu los angeles , ca 90024 1596 ! ! mr jefferson would clearly disappointed designation author bill rights reference israel inappropriate independence 1776 written thomas jefferson , constitution drafted 55 men philadelphia , bill rights added well , maybe jefferson would guys uva , right , anti jewish , self hating visited charlottesville , noticed distinct lack diversity , must assume garner inability perceive reality outside world p
tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) subject final solution gaza \? nntp posting host orion oac uci edu organization university california , irvine lines 23 article 1993apr26 das harvard edu adam endor uucp \( adam shostack \) writes article news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) writes certainly , israeli legitimate worry behind action took , n't action little draconian \? alternative would suggest taken safeguard lives israeli citizens \? adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu tell stay home \? \) sorry , terrible attempt alternative \? hell , n't know perfectly possible objections particular policy feeling alternative choice tim clock ph graduate student uci tel 714 , 8565361 department politics society fax 714 , 8568441 university california irvine home tel 714 , 8563446 irvine , ca 92717
dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) subject turkish genocide apology grants time travel dead ! summary beyond call lunacy organization p center regional studies lines 29 turkish genocide apology zuma uucp sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) read response article 1993apr26 colorado edu perlman qso colorado edu \( eric perlman \) wrote ep discussed , several people , net ep statement attributable either amin al husseini , former grand ep mufti jerusalem leader palestinian death squads ep 1948 war , one chief henchmen \( russia general dro \( butcher \) , architect turkish \( genocide wwi , working closely german secret \( service entered war zone men acquired \( important intelligence soviets experience \( turkish genocide x soviet armenia made invaluable \( source germans 2 fool ! true , wwi russian general dro must worked grave assist x soviet armenia soviet armenia became ex soviet armenia 1991 dro died 1958 ! dro would travel back time , dead , 1991 wwii help nazi germany ! david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org armenia learned lesson p center regional studies anatolia forgotten p box 382761 punishment inflicted 4 14 93 cambridge , 02238 late turkish president turgut ozal
tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) subject freedom u nntp posting host orion oac uci edu organization university california , irvine lines 23 article 1993apr27 cs ucla edu steven surya cs ucla edu \( steven berson \) writes ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) writes virginia edu true founding father , thomas jefferson author bill rights , allowing freedom speach sorry guys israel hard time concept jefferson author bill rights history books n't , jefferson might group think enumerating rights necessary cheers , steven berson ucla computer science department \( 310 \) 825 3189 look beginnings one liberal , western schools , establishment eastern university \) tim clock ph graduate student uci tel 714 , 8565361 department politics society fax 714 , 8568441 university california irvine home tel 714 , 8563446 irvine , ca 92717
ohayon jcpltyo jcpl co jp \( tsiel ohayon \) subject happy birthday israel ! organization james capel pacific limited , tokyo japan lines 18 article 1993apr27 011549 7010 thunder mcrcim mcgill edu hamid reza mohammadi daniali writes hamid anybody information number people hamid killed israel 44 happy year \? anybody know many jews , arabs , christians others died terrorist attacks wars 45 years due arab rhetoric \? number probably close 100 , 000 least lives wasted arabs accept partition plan 1947 tsiel 8 8 tsiel ohayon jcpl co jp receive e mail , please let employer may know soon possible , possible opinions , ! two percent zero almost nothing
amoss shuldig cs huji ac il \( amos shapira \) subject israeli terrorism amoss 93apr25163327 shuldig cs huji ac il 2bdad779 24910 news service uci ed u 1993apr26 das harvard edu usenet ins cwru edu organization inst comp sci , hebrew university , jerusalem , israel lines 42 nntp posting host shuldig cs huji ac il reply cy779 cleveland freenet edu 's message 26 apr 93 22 22 28 gmt cy779 cleveland freenet edu \( anas omran \) writes \( tim clock \) writes \( amos shapira \) writes \( anas omran \) writes eh \? \? \? \? could please give details event neutral observer killed purpose israeli soldier \? many cases , remeber names shot killed un observer gaza first half intifada n't answer question give proof official policy israeli government kill neutral observers un personel others like \? n't sure original statement wrong prepared recieve proofs right \( since n't follow events closely \) last response made pretty damn sure least ca n't give proof , made original statement without much ground put believe world seen pictures israeli soldiers breaking cameras reporters , kicking reporters , confiscating cassettes , showing reporters orders preventing going hot areas pick pictures make reports even 's true \( case 'd take without asking prove \) still far killing reporters also whenever happened 'll bet happened individual actions certain soldiers policy government \( e g see case colonel sentenced giving orders kick arabs , far remember \) bye , amos shapira \( jumper extraordinaire \) true power corrupts , c system group , hebrew university , absolute power better ! jerusalem 91904 , israel amoss cs huji ac il demon son
amoss shuldig cs huji ac il \( amos shapira \) subject israeli terrorism 24910 news service uci edu 1993apr26 das harvard edu usenet ins cwru edu eggertj moses atc mit edu organization inst comp sci , hebrew university , jerusalem , israel lines 25 nntp posting host shuldig cs huji ac il reply eggertj moses atc mit edu 's message 26 apr 93 21 28 46 eggertj moses atc mit edu \( jim eggert x6127 g41 \) writes exactly , reminiscent assassination count bernadotte , un 1948 israeli war independence killed israelis seems successful negotiating cease fire , would worked israel , compared continued war operation done small jewish fraction state even existed , far remember , jews saying killed israelis plain wrong n't israel time far jews liked idea part land see reaction un resolution 29 november , arab 's reaction \( , n't arabs danced streets jewish states invading quite way around \) bye , amos shapira \( jumper extraordinaire \) true power corrupts , c system group , hebrew university , absolute power better ! jerusalem 91904 , israel amoss cs huji ac il demon son
amoss shuldig cs huji ac il \( amos shapira \) subject final solution palestine \? organization inst comp sci , hebrew university , jerusalem , israel lines 30 nntp posting host shuldig cs huji ac il reply ahmeda mcrcim mcgill edu 's message sun , 25 apr 93 17 10 03 gmt ahmeda mcrcim mcgill edu \( ahmed abu abed \) writes hamas islamic jihad believe , far get arab media , islamic state protects rights inhabitants koranic law would reversal 1948 situation jews palestine took control land \( mostly muslim \) inhabitants borders jewish state drawn u n included areas contained mostly jews , 's surveys numerous visited however , whoever committed crimes humanity \( torture , blowing homes , murders , \) must treated tried war criminal political thought movements shows freedom choice given jews living new law leaving choice never touched arab army service never voted anyone right green party spared humanist standards \? \( anyone stop consider \? \) doubt past record murdering helpless women children since turn century days amos shapira \( jumper extraordinaire \) true power corrupts , c system group , hebrew university , absolute power better ! jerusalem 91904 , israel amoss cs huji ac il demon son
anwar cs cmu edu \( anwar mohammed \) subject zionism nntp posting host gs135 sp cs cmu edu organization school computer science , carnegie mellon lines 47 really n't know possibly maintain hypocritical stance one hand , imply conspiracy arab americans warrants illegal gathering information \( ie auto license registration information california \) forms monitoring , including blatant attempts paid adl agents discredit american arab organization trying distribute nazi propaganda furthermore , attempt rationalize crude stereotyping pointing wtc bombing , arab americans involvement hand , publish excerpt , seems rail notions racial \( jewish , case \) conspiracy stereotypes really n't hypocrite appear , please explain article news cso uiuc edu eshneken ux4 cso uiuc edu \( edward shnekendorf \) writes following flyer distributed aipac 's annual policy conference 're israel , 're told go back came come back israel 're told go back came 're vocal much influence quiet afford control everything anyway buy something afford jews rich n't buy something 's 're cheap poor 're called dirty jew ignorant 're 're called called rich jew jap visibly organized 's secret jewish conspiracy 're secret jewish conspiracy 're told 're people say 're still told 're marry people 're called racist n't 're contaminating someone else 's race 're fire left right whites hate us white non whites hate us white anti semitic incidents rising every year 're told anti semitism n't exist 're paranoid 're told shut holocaust yet holocaust revisionism every year obnoxious 're called nice 're told n't act jewish anti semitism world wide people yet free complete work neither free desist reasons many many part jewish national liberation movement zionism
dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) subject ex soviet armenian government 1914 ! summary fools service genocide apology organization p center regional studies lines 18 turkish genocide apology revision zuma uucp posted via sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) wrote fool thanks joined millions turkish kurdish people fool april 23 , 1993 remembered , prayed 2 5 fool million muslim people ruthlessly exterminated fascist fool x soviet armenian government 1914 1920 tend doubt ex soviet armenian government 1914 1920 ! revisionist , liar , fool ! david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org armenia learned lesson p center regional studies anatolia forgotten p box 382761 punishment inflicted 4 14 93 cambridge , 02238 late turkish president turgut ozal
subject israel 's expansion ii amoss shuldig cs huji ac il \( amos shapira \) organization inst comp sci , hebrew university , jerusalem , israel nntp posting host shuldig cs huji ac il reply rj3s virginia edu 's message mon , 26 apr 1993 20 27 14 gmt lines 56 rj3s virginia edu \( get thee nunnery \) writes comment concerning israeli terrorism 1930 's 1940 's , branch militant groups , fight british get palestine yet fail see israeli form terrorism better terrorism practiced arabs jewish terrorist groups killed innocent british soldiers , also killed many jews favor compromise palestinians irgun killed soldiers , legitimate way drive unwanted regime country n't kill blindly families \( policy , agree brits soldiers also killed sometimes \) killed arabs arabs case remind difference , majority attacks arab terrorist organizations civilians even tried justify attacks saying jews israel served army one point time another therefore legitimate targets addition , massacred entire palestinian village 1948 , contributing exodus frightened palestinians feared lives yes , exceptions tragic mistakes n't n't handy heard description bit carried away , fled several dozens , claimed fighters killed far rule considering dozens arab came israeli rule time period mention i'm anti semitic i'm part jewish self righteousness part israelites pisses i'm critical palestinians indeed screwed jews 's damn shame palestinians pay german european anti semitism mean screwed jews \? began war n't accept planned u n , expect jews \? \? pissed immature , closeminded , self righteous semites arabs also semites amos shapira \( jumper extraordinaire \) true power corrupts , c system group , hebrew university , absolute power better ! jerusalem 91904 , israel amoss cs huji ac il demon son
technion bitnet \( katz \) subject zionism racism organization technion israel institute technology lines 1 yes , want read article
eshneken ux4 cso uiuc edu \( edward shnekendorf \) subject happy birthday israel ! organization university illinois urbana lines 11 article 1993apr27 011549 7010 thunder mcrcim mcgill edu hamid reza mohammadi daniali writes hamid anybody information number people hamid killed israel 44 happy year \? sure number israelis killed defending israel little 17 , 000 last 45 years 61 , 000 injured must try make mockery everything , n't \? pathetic ed
bdm cs rit edu \( brendan mckay \) subject israeli terrorism nntp posting host virginia organization rochester institute technology , rochester , ny article amoss shuldig cs huji ac il amoss shuldig cs huji ac il \( amos shapira \) writes eggertj moses atc mit edu \( jim eggert x6127 g41 \) writes exactly , reminiscent assassination count bernadotte , un 1948 israeli war independence killed israelis seems successful negotiating cease fire , would worked israel , compared continued war operation done small jewish fraction state even existed , far remember , jews saying killed israelis plain wrong n't israel time look facts first , post second bernadotte assassinated september 1948 lehi orders three commanders \( one yitzhak shamir \) hard evidence complicity israeli government despite effort un organizations \( us intelligence , swedish government \) find however great fuss made apparent lack zeal israeli government track killers lehi man actually pulled trigger later became personal friend david ben gurion best published account english ilan , bernadotte palestine , 1948 \( macmillan , 1989 \) amos shapira \( jumper extraordinaire \) brendan
jade tufts edu \( nissan \) subject final solution gaza \? organization tufts university medford , lines 27 honest answer question arabs expelled jaffa , fled jaffa , anywhere else israel , right return yes , unfortunately , right return may apply citizenship like non israeli go jaffa try buy house back jews question answer jews born raised hebron , descendants go back homes hebron \? answer absolutely , almost murdered arab neighbors palestinians , think arabs allowed even visit homes jaffa \? hell , bring back jews hebron , , jerusalem , , etc , perhaps would favor arabs returning jaffa homes however , seeing arab yet able bring people back dead , 'd say 's hope world , nissan katz jade tufts edu
hm cs brown edu \( harry mamaysky \) subject israeli terrorism reply rj3s virginia edu 's message mon , 26 apr 1993 20 34 25 gmt organization dept computer science , brown university lines 24 article 1993apr26 virginia edu rj3s virginia edu \( get thee nunnery \) writes \( 1 \) know ed , 're right ! andi n't comparing israel nazis israelis much worse nazis ever anyway nazis lot good germany , would succeeded n't damn jews holocaust never happened anyway ample evidence given george schafer harvard , dept history , even randolph higgins nyu , shown holocaust semitic conspiracy created obtain sympathy creation israel \( 2 \) kidding careful rj3s people start finding humour holocaust often run danger exposing hateful refuse really harry
oaf zurich ai mit edu \( oded feingold \) subject israel 's expansion organization artificial intelligence lab lines 10 dscomsa desy de 1993apr19 news columbia edu dscomsa desy de reply oaf zurich ai mit edu nntp posting host klosters ai mit edu reply hallam dscomsa desy de 's message 21 apr 93 03 28 21 gmt poor phill hallam baker getting worse , stratospheric typing skills longer keep spelling flame real sympathy knows sure official mossad policy n't stop get disneyland ! p 6 liter cars come europe , labeled either bmw , mercedes benz , rolls royce jaguar check guzzler tax price lists
bob1 cos com \( bob blackshaw \) subject go hizbollah ii ! organization corporation open systems distribution world lines 31 news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) writes article yuma acns colostate edu bh437292 lance colostate edu writes article 1993apr24 1 utxvms cc utexas edu , ifaz706 utxvms cc utexas edu \( noam tractinsky \) writes paraphrasing bit , every rocket hizbollah fires galilee , justify israel 's holding security zone noam want say agree noam point hope sides stop targeting civilians basil absolutely i'm sure civilians sides would pleased fighters \( military , guerilla , whatever \) would take argument elsewhere , find area somewhere , slug point , breath sigh relief cheer side struggle ah , fire armed folks nasty habit firing back simple terrorist could get hurt way tim clock ph graduate student uci tel 714 , 8565361 department politics society fax 714 , 8568441 university california irvine home tel 714 , 8563446 irvine , ca 92717
bob1 cos com \( bob blackshaw \) subject remember names come election time keywords usa federal , government , international , non usa government organization corporation open systems distribution world lines 26 1 cs cmu edu anwar cs cmu edu \( anwar mohammed \) writes said article c5u4qi mz4 apollo hp com nelson p apollo hp com \( peter nelson \) writes besides , 's case made us military involvement n't apply equally well , say , liberia , angola , \( appears khmer rouge 's new campaign \) cambodia non whites n't count \? hmm might say kuwaitis non white ooops , forgot , kuwaitis oil rich , loaded petro dollars , etc n't count let 's forget somalia , far white gets according reports read seems think african american marines less complimentary terms , using gestures signify word refuse use seems even try help people , still insult 's two row , care try \? reb
bob1 cos com \( bob blackshaw \) subject hamza salah , humanist organization corporation open systems distribution world lines 21 1993apr24 cs brown edu dzk cs brown edu \( danny keren \) writes cl056 cleveland freenet edu \( hamaza h salah \) writes well said mr beyer \) great humanist speaks one read mr salah 's posters , jews sons pigs monkeys , keeps promising final battle muslims jews \( trees cry muslims come kill jews hiding behind \) , makes jokes jews dying heart attacks etc , realize objective stance matters involved posting lies benjamin franklin talk politics misc seems mr salah stoop level \( climb \) spread hate danny keren reb
oaf zurich ai mit edu \( oded feingold \) subject freeman organization artificial intelligence lab lines 10 reply oaf zurich ai mit edu nntp posting host klosters ai mit edu reply cosmo pro angmar alfalfa com 's message 23 apr 1993 03 25 18 0500 frank benson watch language asshole ! ! ! ! another spelling flame \? n't guy threatens people talk politics guns \? 2nd amendment yea , 1st amendment nay 'd arrive tpm \? fruit basket \? \?
oaf zurich ai mit edu \( oded feingold \) subject organization artificial intelligence lab lines 5 reply oaf zurich ai mit edu nntp posting host klosters ai mit edu wayne mcguire \? someone prove 's anon penet fi , ran pcp \? miss \( \)
hamid mcrcim mcgill edu \( hamid reza mohammadi daniali \) subject happy birthday israel ! originator hamid ice mcrcim mcgill edu nntp posting host ice mcrcim mcgill edu organization mcgill research centre intelligent machines lines 34 article news cso uiuc edu , eshneken ux4 cso uiuc edu \( edward shnekendorf \) writes article 1993apr27 011549 7010 thunder mcrcim mcgill edu hamid reza mohammadi daniali writes deliberately deleted line ! n't remember wrote , remember wrote wrote happy 45 birth day israel ! hamid anybody information number people hamid killed israel 44 happy year \? sure number israelis killed defending israel little 17 , 000 last 45 years 61 , 000 injured means number people killed israel high keep track , also part zionism ideology n't need keep track people kill \? kill ! hamid must try make mockery everything , n't \? pathetic ed
oaf zurich ai mit edu \( oded feingold \) subject hamza salah , humanist organization artificial intelligence lab lines 3 1993apr25 news columbia edu reply oaf zurich ai mit edu nntp posting host klosters ai mit edu reply jaa12 cunixa cc columbia edu 's message sun , 25 apr 1993 00 49 17 gmt hey , want posts forwarded ca n't get sysadmin pay attention
adams bellini berkeley edu \( adam l schwartz \) subject israel 's expansion ii nntp posting host bellini berkeley edu organization u c berkeley erl lines 40 article 1993apr26 virginia edu rj3s virginia edu \( get thee nunnery \) writes never seen immaturity among andi beyer character shows signs anti semitism ok , 've already disqualified \( ever \) objective insult race ! assuming also semitic jews people common cultural heritage , religion , history race comment concerning israeli terrorism 1930 's 1940 's , branch militant groups , fight british get palestine yet fail see israeli form terrorism better terrorism practiced arabs jewish terrorist groups killed innocent british soldiers n't see difference killing british soldiers \( preventing jews tried escape nazis entering british mandate \) arab terrorist kill civilian men , women , children \? ! \? mention i'm anti semitic i'm part jewish 's atleast two counts first , even identify completely jewish n't rule possibility 're self hating anti semite one always find jews uncomfortable identities \( since want jews victims \) willing speak enemies secondly , strength weakness arguments depend identity adam schwartz \( sign name \)
subject desertification negev amoss shuldig cs huji ac il \( amos shapira \) organization inst comp sci , hebrew university , jerusalem , israel nntp posting host shuldig cs huji ac il reply center policy research 's message 25 apr 93 05 25 pdt lines 48 center policy research cpr igc apc org writes give positive , accurate facts happened beduins land creation state israel , 80 percent negev bedouin expelled sinai southern jordan 10 , 000 allowed remain confined territory 40 , 000 hectares region annual mean 150 mm quantity low enough ensure crop failure two years three rare water wells south central negev , spring life desert , prevent bedouin shepherds roaming bedouin shepherds allowed stay central negev 1982 , sinai returned egypt , bedouin also eliminated time , strong pressure applied bedouin abandon fields order land could transferred army say noone knows anything happened reliable statistics exist concerning amount land held today negev bedouin known fact large part 40 , 000 hectares cultivated 1950s seized israeli authorities indeed , bedouin confined seven development towns , , established \( rest article available elias davidsson , email elias ismennt \) basically say know sure nothing good happens , know sure beduins jews arrived driven away jews , noone earth knows jews said \? could nonsense wrote \? btw , try asking beduins sinai mis israelis mention enough beduins idf least one full brigade amos shapira \( jumper extraordinaire \) true power corrupts , c system group , hebrew university , absolute power better ! jerusalem 91904 , israel amoss cs huji ac il demon son
subject zionism racism amoss shuldig cs huji ac il \( amos shapira \) organization inst comp sci , hebrew university , jerusalem , israel nntp posting host shuldig cs huji ac il reply center policy research 's message 25 apr 93 05 27 pdt lines 41 center policy research cpr igc apc org writes center policy research cpr subject zionism racism diaspora 'a julian lindsay jewish chronicle , london , 22 dec 1989 leading israeli author cultural commentator , b yehoshua , launched ferocious attack diaspora jewry zionist youth council meeting north london , last week diaspora , claimed , cancer connected main tissue jewish people failure act holocaust deleted jewish values israel embraced every aspect daily life , unlike diaspora , jews responsibility country lived , said warned modern hebrew , unifying force jewish people , would struggle future , especially literary circles faced fierce competition english language \? amos amos shapira \( jumper extraordinaire \) true power corrupts , c system group , hebrew university , absolute power better ! jerusalem 91904 , israel amoss cs huji ac il demon son
adams bellini berkeley edu \( adam l schwartz \) subject israel 's expansion ii nntp posting host bellini berkeley edu organization u c berkeley erl lines 27 article cat cis brown edu dzk cs brown edu \( danny keren \) writes someone elaborate little libertarian movement \? going draw conclusions small sample , far recall two self described libertarians posting seems 1 \) incredibly ignorant 2 \) incredibly arrogant 3 \) want get people angry 4 \) posses lousy sense humor 5 \) write jump topic topic without logical connection topics 6 \) describe intelligent knowledgeable , although everything posters points opposite 7 \) childish campaign smear libertarian party \? wow , hang second libertarian party stands personal freedom , faire economics minimal government whoever describing self libertarian \( maybe refering posters call civil libertarians \) talking libertarian philosophy adam schwartz \( libertarian \)
harry alf dec com \( harry katz \) subject u holocaust memorial museum costly dangerous mistake organization digital equipment corporation , atlanta customer support center lines 31 nntp posting host alf dec com x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 article genesis mcs com , jack schmidling \( arf genesis mcs com \) writes federal land tax money could used americans better yet , house homeless americans article specialix com jim specialix com \( jim maurer \) responds n't contribute group helping homeless concerned \? article genesis mcs com jack schmidling \( arf genesis mcs com \) reveals true depths cynicism \( \) contribute arf mortgage fund interest rates , paid problem , could n't convince congress move home nicer location federal land words , mr schmidling could care less plight homeless , using score points agenda harry katz
adam endor uucp \( adam shostack \) subject freedom u organization aiken computation lab , harvard university lines 16 article 1993apr27 virginia edu ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) writes virginia edu true founding father , thomas jefferson author bill rights , allowing freedom speach thomas jefferson rolling grave university making rules sex n't uva also hate crimes rule books \? adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu budget big enough drugs sexual favors , sure would n't waste members congress john perry barlow
bh437292 longs lance colostate edu \( basil hamdan \) subject rejoinder questions israelis reply bh437292 lance colostate edu nntp posting host keller lance colostate edu organization engineering college , colorado state university lines 40 article 389 jcpltyo jcpl co jp , ohayon jcpltyo jcpl co jp \( tsiel ohayon \) writes article 1993apr26 freenet carleton ca aa229 freenet carleton ca \( steve birnbaum \) writes 1982 attack response sb years constant shelling terrorist organizations golan sb heights children murdered time terrorists israel sb finally nowhere see war israel started sb borders could expanded agree write except terrorist orgs shelling israel golan heights 1982 , rather lebanon tsiel , would contend shelling sides border , starting early 70 's certainly plo shell northern israel region , israel much shelling destroying several south lebanese villages least say sides exchanged shelling , occasional aerial raids israel lebanese villages case steve 's characterization 1982 invasion response years shelling lebanon false israel many reasons invading mainly install government lebanon favorable israel , nearly achieved aim election el gemayel , brother , amin el gemayel , internal situation lebanon hard control predict israel withdraw , amin el gemayel 17 th may agreement tsiel 8 8 tsiel ohayon jcpl co jp receive e mail , please let employer may know soon possible , possible opinions , ! two percent zero almost nothing basil
hm cs brown edu \( harry mamaysky \) subject freedom u reply ab4z virginia edu 's message tue , 27 apr 1993 00 56 19 gmt organization dept computer science , brown university 1993apr27 virginia edu lines 22 article 1993apr27 virginia edu ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) writes actually law david irving hopefully found guilty due denial holocaust 's bad useless centre policy research n't canada 'd set nice precedent law applies cyberspace steve well canada wrong us aclu would made sure repressive laws found unconstitutional think church n't find galileo 's perception universe offensive bull shit reason world ca n't say taking views analogous kkk 's organization wrong reason morality may legislated allow theft , murder , rape allow hateful sppech whose purpose stir anger violence harry
hm cs brown edu \( harry mamaysky \) subject deir yassin reply rj3s virginia edu 's message mon , 26 apr 1993 23 43 31 gmt organization dept computer science , brown university lines 35 article 1993apr26 virginia edu rj3s virginia edu \( get thee nunnery \) writes bullshit deir yassin unprovoked attack part jews , massacre defines best opinion village deir yassin pact jews , peace pact , irgun purposely broke agreement order scare palestinians might grant village housed armed arabs doubt nothing archives available literature indicates motivating force amongst irgun deir yassin massacre part strategy intimidate palestinians flee jewish homeland , contrary belief , many civilians killed deir yassin later advertized jews perpetrated useful getting many palestinians leave palestinians rightfully scared , want another deir yassin i'm necessarily condemning israelites atrocities committed part arabs israelophiles careful thinking good guys middle east arab jew suck equally rj3s , say evidence motivated irgun attack dir yassin strategic importance fact , begin , charge irgun , wrote dir yassin attacked military significance dir yassin merely battle war liberation people died thing never intended tragedy war crime irgun harry
pitt edu \( richard thorne \) subject israeli terrorism organization university pittsburgh lines 18 andi beyer writes shame austria , daily reports inhuman acts commited israeli soldiers blessing received government makes holocaust guilt go away , look jews treating races got power unfortunate turned around feel guilty actions wwii , n't , justify anti making every israeli action atrocity , germans europeans extensive trading relations arab block pro arab good business n't think ethics thing richard thorne rdt med pitt edu
adam endor uucp \( adam shostack \) subject israel 's expansion ii organization aiken computation lab , harvard university lines 40 article cat cis brown edu dzk cs brown edu \( danny keren \) writes someone elaborate little libertarian movement \? going draw conclusions small sample , far recall two self described libertarians posting seems 1 \) incredibly ignorant 2 \) incredibly arrogant 3 \) want get people angry 4 \) posses lousy sense humor 5 \) write jump topic topic without logical connection topics 6 \) describe intelligent knowledgeable , although everything posters points opposite 7 \) childish libertarians believe getting government backs people , free market solve problems libertarians believe end welfare state , end government subsidies sorts basic idea government way big way expensive , shrunk reasonable size also believe complete end foreign aid , including american troops overseas policing world agree people come group describe libertarians seem posses describe , heck , 're like i'm libertarian , 've got great sense humor ! \) adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu budget big enough drugs sexual favors , sure would n't waste members congress john perry barlow
adam endor uucp \( adam shostack \) subject israel 's expansion ii organization aiken computation lab , harvard university lines 51 article 1993apr27 virginia edu ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) writes jake bony1 bony com writes article 1993apr25 3411 virginia edu ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) writes waldo cybernet cse fau edu writes humans suffered emotionally , jews many others suffered physically problem language \? said everyone suffered emotionally victims holocaust n't implying anyone suffered actual victims quite people could n't cared less happened jews europe cared , would done something wrong guys \? regardless one says keep hearing want hear maybe many us , usenet several years remember tripe like posted interested , would like inform binyamin netanyahu \( leader israeli likud party \) interviewed cnn tonight larry king live n't guy go crying zionist tv confessing committed , cheating wife typical jew leader , huh \? posted fairly recently much racist stuff past expected listen remain calm \? n't think listening racist anti semetic incitement calm debate perhaps n't mean coming highly offensive however , way posted seems typical irrational dislike israel jews perhaps took close look 've posted thought bit tone 've used , would see people reacting way adam shostack adam das harvard edu budget big enough drugs sexual favors , sure would n't waste members congress john perry barlow
jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) subject happy birthday israel ! organization department redundancy department lines 20 article 1993apr27 011549 7010 thunder mcrcim mcgill edu hamid mcrcim mcgill edu \( hamid reza mohammadi daniali \) writes article news cso uiuc edu , eshneken ux4 cso uiuc edu \( edward shnekendorf \) writes israel happy 45th birthday ! anybody information number people killed israel 44 happy year \? hamid 's \? another idiot mcrcim mcgill edu \? dope using different accounts \? jake livni jake bony1 bony com ten years , george bush american occupied new york replaced jimmy carter opinions employer opinions standard failed president
nstramer supergas dazixco ingr com \( naftaly stramer \) subject changes israeli society nntp posting host supergas reply nstramer dazixco ingr com organization intergraph electronics lines 25 israeline 4 27 93 rabin must concentrate qualitative changes israeli society today 's al hamishmar quotes prime minister yitzhak rabin 's independence day interview yesterday israel television rabin said enforcing jewish sovereignty entire land israel would lead establishment bi national state would view historical destiny generation , , generation great privilege determining fate people founding jewish state , lost rabin added , must stop dreaming settlements e territories focus qualitative substantive changes israeli society make productive society dependent labor prime minister concluded saying would like achieve significant breakthrough peace process government 's term naftaly stramer intergraph electronics internet nstramer dazixco ingr com 6101 lookout road , suite voice \( 303 \) 581 2370 fax \( 303 \) 581 9972 boulder , co 80301 quality everybody 's job , 's everybody 's job watch
nstramer supergas dazixco ingr com \( naftaly stramer \) subject peace talks resume nntp posting host supergas reply nstramer dazixco ingr com organization intergraph electronics lines 35 israeline 4 27 93 peace talks resume today israel offer palestinians new proposals israel radio , kol yisrael , reports today 's washington bilateral peace talks , following lasted four months according report , israel expected offer palestinians new proposals regarding authority palestinian executive council , general elections , control land human rights issues territories israel express readiness give palestinians control land previously offered according radio report , one estimate israel give palestinians control much two thirds administered lands , well broad authority water issues israel seek promote offer hold elections territories hopes strengthening position palestinian delegation peace negotiations according israel radio , israeli delegation bilateral talks palestinians offer greater responsibilities palestinian executive council allowing certain legislative capabilities , without making symbol palestinian sovereignty u secretary state warren christopher invited heads gathering tonight first event since madrid conference head american team bilateral peace talks , edward , said tonight 's gathering meant demonstrate u ' active role peace process naftaly stramer intergraph electronics internet nstramer dazixco ingr com 6101 lookout road , suite voice \( 303 \) 581 2370 fax \( 303 \) 581 9972 boulder , co 80301 quality everybody 's job , 's everybody 's job watch
jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) subject happy birthday israel ! organization department redundancy department lines 20 article 390 jcpltyo jcpl co jp ohayon jcpltyo jcpl co jp \( tsiel ohayon \) writes anybody know many jews , arabs , christians others died terrorist attacks wars 45 years due arab rhetoric \? number probably close 100 , 000 least lives wasted arabs accept partition plan 1947 well 100 , 000 lebanon alone 1 , 000 , 000 2 , 000 , 000 iran iraq conflict , even iranians n't arabs , strictly speaking \( seem hate zionists least much anyone else neighborhood correlation perhaps hating israel killing people \? \) jake livni jake bony1 bony com ten years , george bush american occupied new york replaced jimmy carter opinions employer opinions standard failed president
tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) subject peace talks resume nntp posting host orion oac uci edu organization university california , irvine lines 59 article 1993apr27 dazixco ingr com nstramer dazixco ingr com writes peace talks resume today israel offer palestinians new proposals israel radio , kol yisrael , reports today 's washington bilateral peace talks , following lasted four months according report , israel expected offer palestinians new proposals regarding authority palestinian executive council , general elections , control land human rights issues territories israel express readiness give palestinians control land previously offered according radio report , one estimate israel give palestinians control much two thirds administered lands , well broad authority water issues israel seek promote offer hold elections territories hopes strengthening position palestinian delegation peace negotiations according israel radio , israeli delegation bilateral talks palestinians offer greater responsibilities palestinian executive council allowing certain legislative capabilities , without making symbol palestinian sovereignty u secretary state warren christopher invited heads gathering tonight first event since madrid conference head american team bilateral peace talks , edward , said tonight 's gathering meant demonstrate u ' active role peace process hope , hope , begin involve issues concerns related peace process differing opinions , certainly , aspects clear share hope resolution tensions conflict happen run defense side , need constantly involve name calling us regularly confused 's reactive posting spend post applying labels presenting slogans presenting honest views react , thing , , agree \( sort \) peace process needed \? particular points mentioned article \? israel \( supposedly \) going propose good \? go far \? far enough \? n't agree peace process needed , \? tim clock ph graduate student uci tel 714 , 8565361 department politics society fax 714 , 8568441 university california irvine home tel 714 , 8563446 irvine , ca 92717
eshneken ux4 cso uiuc edu \( edward shnekendorf \) subject happy birthday israel ! organization university illinois urbana lines 17 hamid mcrcim mcgill edu \( hamid reza mohammadi daniali \) writes means number people killed israel high keep track , also part zionism ideology n't need keep track people kill \? kill ! know number high , would care provide \? tell truth , hamid , killed israeli army invading attacking israel intention murdering jews destroying jewish state thus , sympathy really n't give damn many killed hamid ed
steven surya cs ucla edu \( steven berson \) subject freedom u nntp posting host surya cs ucla edu organization ucla , computer science department lines 31 hm cs brown edu \( harry mamaysky \) writes article 1993apr27 virginia edu ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) writes well canada wrong hate speech law sb us aclu would made sure repressive laws found unconstitutional bull shit reason world ca n't say taking views analogous kkk 's organization wrong reason morality may legislated allow theft , murder , rape allow hateful sppech whose purpose stir anger violence harry think answer mr 's question found first amendment us constitution amendment \( \) congress shall make law respecting establishment religion , prohibiting free exercise thereof abridging freedom speech , press right people peaceably assemble , petition government redress grievances steve steven berson ucla computer science department \( 310 \) 825 3189 steven cs ucla edu los angeles , ca 90024 1596
ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) subject freedom u organization university virginia lines 16 bull shit reason world ca n't say taking views analogous kkk 's organization wrong reason morality may legislated allow theft , murder , rape allow hateful sppech whose purpose stir anger violence harry actually , 're wrong well kkk allowed march attempts curtail freedom rejected \( actually believe aclu case last year \) morality free country like u 'll post something tj uva uva bashers
ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) subject uva organization university virginia lines 21 things university fun may admit partying go consistently ranked one playboy 's top party schools study importantly learn lot overall uva drug use actually lower average college u hate law books even though \( forces pc \) tried one last year \( way similar law university wisconsin \? found unconstitutional last year \) law relationship professors students passed thomas jefferson sole author virginia statute religious freedom \( basis first ten amendments \) , though given full credit righting bill rights someone picked right way , 're man everything sports academics partying i'm sure lot schools good well , n't start mailing junk i'm happy maybe 'll go one medical schools couple years
ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) subject israel 's expansion ii organization university virginia lines 12 changed case interested actually said , never compared israeli treatment palestinians holocaust anyway truth matters forget since everyone started calling anti semitic making comparison never made say nazis n't start holocaust initial actions similar israelis jews stranded polish border since country accepted like arabs stranded border trials , hearing , expulsion based guilt due race
ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) subject uva organization university virginia lines 27 ab4z virginia edu writes things university fun may admit partying go consistently ranked one playboy 's top party schools study importantly learn lot overall uva drug use actually lower average college u hate law books even though \( forces pc \) tried one last year \( way similar law university wisconsin \? found unconstitutional last year \) law relationship professors students passed thomas jefferson sole author virginia statute religious freedom \( basis first ten amendments \) , though given full credit righting bill rights someone picked right way , 're man everything sports academics partying i'm sure lot schools good well , n't start mailing junk i'm happy maybe 'll go one medical schools couple years oh god spelling suck guess need sleep said righting \( instead writing \) 's chance thank god caught everyone started picking hope n't cause mr jefferson much shame
hm cs brown edu \( harry mamaysky \) subject freedom u 1993apr27 cs ucla edu organization dept computer science , brown university lines 64 reply steven surya cs ucla edu 's message tue , 27 apr 93 20 31 19 gmt article 1993apr27 cs ucla edu steven surya cs ucla edu \( steven berson \) writes hm cs brown edu \( harry mamaysky \) writes bull shit reason world ca n't say taking views analogous kkk 's organization wrong reason morality may legislated allow theft , murder , rape allow hateful sppech whose purpose stir anger violence harry think answer mr 's question found \( mr mamaysky 's \) first amendment us constitution amendment \( \) congress shall make law respecting establishment religion , prohibiting free exercise thereof abridging freedom speech , press right people peaceably assemble , petition government redress grievances steve say freedom speech banned far merely suggesting certain things universally agreed morally incorrect many things example \( 1 \) murder morally incorrect \( 2 \) idea one group people somehow racially inferior another morally incorrect etc point action serves promote morally incorrect action forbidden implies one right say innocent person murdered regardless freedom speech , may stand street corner advocate murder innocent people reason murder morally incorrect action way , since bigotry morally incorrect narrow definition given , \( 2 \) , , one else , right stand street corner promote bigotry enforcement way deny one rights guaranteed first amendment merely ensures person may target attempt deny fundamental moral right , right murdered , right discriminated believe , mr berson , blindly accept constitution terrific mistake must question constitution interpret way society live anything short effort would render us little trained monkeys , able merely repeat heard without paying slightest bit attention intent document question would disagree , mr berson \? harry
stssdxb st unocal com \( dorin baru \) subject strictly speaking organization unocal corporation lines 20 jake livni writes well 100 , 000 lebanon alone 1 , 000 , 000 2 , 000 , 000 iran iraq conflict , even iranians n't arabs , strictly speaking \( seem hate zionists least much anyone else neighborhood correlation perhaps hating israel killing people \? \) perhaps iranians arabs even strictly speaking \? dorin
tichauer valpso hanse de \( manfredo tichauer \) subject israeli terrorism organization private site manfredo tichauer lines 78 rj3s virginia edu writes message id 1993apr26 virginia edu date mon , 26 apr 1993 20 27 14 gmt first , following two quite normal phrases anyone venture answer andi 's question intelligent manner \? please start intelligent conversation \? shows us means intelligent manner intelligent conversation never seen immaturity among deleted lines ones guilty backing viewpoints fact israelophiles deleted lines insult race ! assuming also semitic deleted lines later reveals truth mention i'm anti semitic i'm part jewish deleted lines anti semite \( call anti jew \) , maybe part jewish \( e g mother might dated jew n't marry , got little bastard taught hatred \) also coward since n't dare sign name end signs highly intelligent intellectual phrase pissed immature , closeminded , self righteous semites rj3s virginia edu writes message id 1993apr26 virginia edu date mon , 26 apr 1993 20 34 25 gmt know ed , 're right ! andi n't comparing israel nazis israelis much worse nazis ever anyway nazis lot good germany , would succeeded n't damn jews holocaust never happened anyway ample evidence given george schafer harvard , dept history , even randolph higgins nyu , shown holocaust semitic conspiracy created obtain sympathy creation israel nazis might also sent bastard gas chambers part jewish ness \( aware \) ps wonder kind educational institution virginia edu could free kkk university virginia \? \) manfredo tichauer email tichauer valpso hanse de 14 voice \( 49 40 \) 27 42 27 2000 hamburg 60 germany fax \( 49 40 \) 270 53 09
hm cs brown edu \( harry mamaysky \) subject freedom u reply ab4z virginia edu 's message tue , 27 apr 1993 20 12 52 gmt organization dept computer science , brown university lines 28 article 1993apr27 virginia edu ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) writes bull shit reason world ca n't say taking views analogous kkk 's organization wrong reason morality may legislated allow theft , murder , rape allow hateful sppech whose purpose stir anger violence harry actually , 're wrong well kkk allowed march attempts curtail freedom rejected \( actually believe aclu case last year \) morality free country like u yes seems problem even germany laws military soldiers required disobey orders believe orders morally incorrect prohibited canada , germany \( others \? \) pray tell less free us \? 'll post something tj uva uva bashers harry
eeb1 kimbark uchicago edu \( e elizabeth bartley \) subject israel 's expansion ii reply eeb1 midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 16 article 1993apr27 virginia edu ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) writes jews stranded polish border since country accepted like arabs stranded border trials , hearing , expulsion based guilt due race due race due membership organization publically proclaimed would destroy state expelled furthermore kill large segment citizens state , based race pro choice anti roe e elizabeth bartley abortions safe , legal , early , rare
tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) subject uva nntp posting host orion oac uci edu organization university california , irvine lines 46 article 1993apr27 virginia edu ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) writes things university \? need go fun may admit partying go consistently ranked one playboy 's top party schools especially piece information study importantly learn lot overall uva drug use actually lower average college u hate law books even though \( forces pc \) tried one last year \( way similar law university wisconsin \? found unconstitutional last year \) remember , someone ask uv speach code , really , need brief survey course law relationship professors students passed thomas jefferson sole author virginia statute religious freedom \( basis first ten amendments \) , though given full credit righting bill rights someone picked right way , 're man everything sports academics partying wonderful i'm sure lot schools good well , n't start mailing junk i'm happy maybe 'll go one medical schools couple years tim clock ph graduate student uci tel 714 , 8565361 department politics society fax 714 , 8568441 university california irvine home tel 714 , 8563446 irvine , ca 92717
jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) subject freedom u organization department redundancy department lines 36 steve birnbaum writes actually law david irving hopefully found guilty due denial holocaust 's bad useless centre policy research n't canada 'd set nice precedent law applies cyberspace article 1993apr27 virginia edu ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) responds well canada wrong talk generalizations indeed , sound quite immature us aclu would made sure repressive laws found unconstitutional \? aclu fighting anti hate law \? mean aclu would support gay bashing , racial discrimination anti semitic violence \? thanks , andi , reminding us constitution preserves rights fun activities think church n't find galileo 's perception universe offensive probably , galileo happened right jews offended holocaust , revisionists , deny history even happened , happen wrong jake livni jake bony1 bony com ten years , george bush american occupied new york replaced jimmy carter opinions employer opinions standard failed president
jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) subject israel 's expansion ii organization department redundancy department lines 81 article 1993apr26 virginia edu rj3s virginia edu \( get thee nunnery \) writes never seen immaturity among andi beyer character shows signs anti semitism , obviously n't read postings clearly ones guilty backing viewpoints fact israelophiles israelophiles \? anything like israelists \? 're thin ice insult race ! , 're falling ice ! playmate ! comment concerning israeli terrorism 1930 's 1940 's , branch militant groups , fight british get palestine yet fail see israeli form terrorism better terrorism practiced arabs difference guerrilla warfare terrorism former primarily targets enemy soldiers latter primarily targets civilians , necessarily enemy , jewish terrorist groups killed innocent british soldiers , innocent british soldiers \? like innocent iraqi soldiers \? british executing jewish fighters soon become recognized jewish homeland british eternal shame damnation sending jewish refugees , civilians , back europe taken care hitler comparison , palestinean fighters primarily target tourists , , babies , worshippers , shoppers , movie threatening people early zionist fighters things comparison ignorant odious mention i'm anti semitic i'm part jewish self righteousness part israelites pisses bug israelites \( used israelophiles \) happen right \? i'm critical palestinians indeed screwed jews kidding \? palestinean arabs comprise tiny proportion world 's refugee population , almost justifiable claim territory desire , acted criminals international community decades treated like deserving minority existence , even support saddam desert storm many world leaders addressed un machine gun hand , receiving standing ovation \? 's damn shame palestinians pay german european anti semitism weakest arguments apologists congratulations pissed immature , closeminded , self righteous semites gee , 's nice name call pissed \? jake livni jake bony1 bony com ten years , george bush american occupied new york replaced jimmy carter opinions employer opinions standard failed president
jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) subject israel 's expansion ii organization department redundancy department lines 63 article 1993apr27 virginia edu ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) writes jake bony1 bony com writes article 1993apr25 3411 virginia edu ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) writes waldo cybernet cse fau edu writes jews suffered wwii , beloved perished tortured suffered humans suffered emotionally , jews many others suffered physically i'm waiting andi tell us african americans start paying compensation white americans suffered slave owners problem language \? said everyone suffered emotionally victims holocaust great many germans , poles others sympathize victims holocaust instead participated enthusiasm killing holocaust n't massacre , n't even killing sport entire industry death german engineers , technicians bureaucrats proudly put best efforts efficient killing machine could devise operate certainly something extraordinary please n't us nazis suffered holocaust n't implying anyone suffered actual victims , waldo wrote jews suffered wwii correct humans suffered implying \? neither implying wrongdoing part jews cause holocaust supposed thank \? pleased minimal common sense \? wrong guys \? regardless one says keep hearing want hear someone writes something simple like jews wwii feel burning need add commentary \? regardless people write , keep trying twist things want hear people similar tendencies extreme form sometimes called historical revisionists something aspire \? jake livni jake bony1 bony com ten years , george bush american occupied new york replaced jimmy carter opinions employer opinions standard failed president
jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) subject final solution gaza \? organization department redundancy department lines 19 article news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) writes tell stay home \? \) sorry , terrible attempt alternative \? hell , n't know perfectly possible objections particular policy feeling alternative choice sealing gaza strip interesting side effect demonstrating non viability gaza independent state people going go find work separated israel \? complain show id cards way work , feel showing passports way work \? jake livni jake bony1 bony com ten years , george bush american occupied new york replaced jimmy carter opinions employer opinions standard failed president
jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) subject final solution gaza \? organization department redundancy department lines 18 article igc apc org center policy research cpr igc apc org writes dear folks , still awaiting sensible answer comment dear elias , counted least 4 answers public \( plus whatever private email replies may received \) , yet refuse accept anything perhaps better private world center policy research iceland define sensible whatever way makes feel comfortable jake livni jake bony1 bony com ten years , george bush american occupied new york replaced jimmy carter opinions employer opinions standard failed president
benali alcor concordia ca \( ilyess b bdira \) subject egypt call fighting fundamentalists , objects pro bosnian steps keywords international , united nations , government , non usa government , fighting nntp posting host alcor concordia ca organization concordia university , montreal , canada lines 43 seems egypt interested fighting wars people , objecting steps bosnia surprised , said mubarak represents egypt \( hell even represent criminals egypt \) clarinews clarinet com \( anwar \) writes \( upi \) representatives 51 islamic nations considering tuesday request bosnia herzegovina 260 million weapons fight bosnian serbs commitment far 20 million saudi arabia , thanks saudia pocket change compare liberation q8 gave weird causes k least paying already donated 100 million bosnia herzegovina sources political committee said delegates agreement need help bosnian muslims , request weapons delayed decision ``it may interpreted violating united embargo supplying arms bosnia , '' warned egyptian foreign minister amer moussa mr amr moussa worried international law tortured death many citizens shot people praying mosque , causing trouble neighbor becasue cia says n't shut , wo n't involved bosnian effort anyway , west represented even islamic conference \? hear egyptian regime , understand existence members leaders former current victims government torture , injustice , relatives victims places get psychiatric care revenge courts got resulting cycle madness initiated government illicit support west concerned safety half naked tourists conservative neighborhoods dignity , social justice , safety majority poor oppressed people egypt enough said apologists u imperialism watch movie \( 1984 \) three times row , might help \( shall say 13 times \? \)
tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) subject final solution gaza \? nntp posting host orion oac uci edu organization university california , irvine lines 28 article bony1 bony com jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) writes article news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) writes tell stay home \? \) sorry , terrible attempt alternative \? hell , n't know perfectly possible objections particular policy feeling alternative choice sealing gaza strip interesting side effect demonstrating non viability gaza independent state people going go find work separated israel \? complain show id cards way work , feel showing passports way work \? throughout years israel arab palestinian conflict , internal palestinian found essentially relegated lower economy given major kinds positions required israeli palestinian economy , essentially two different ones existing side side n't holding many skilled positions , gaza operate , residents trained fill need middle upper management tim clock ph graduate student uci tel 714 , 8565361 department politics society fax 714 , 8568441 university california irvine home tel 714 , 8563446 irvine , ca 92717
center policy research cpr igc apc org subject final solution gaza \? nf id r cdp 1483500354 cdp 000 591 nf cdp uucp ! cpr apr 27 11 37 00 1993 lines 15 basically three alternatives gaza 1 throw jews sea basically make leave middle east go back came \( russia , europe , usa , etc \) 2 throw gazans sea , accordance yitzhak rabin 's wish many zionists 3 israelis palestinians come honorable fair \( n't attempt say \) settlement , would allow person live dignity country freedom equality opt third alternative folks \? elias
tippu snrc uow edu au \( tippu hassan \) subject jewish muslim relations bosnia organization snrc , university wollongong lines 66 distribution world reply tippu snrc uow edu au nntp posting host sheep snrc uow edu au found soc culture pakistan might interest posting without permission original poster hope doesnt mind lance gay , scripps howard news service sarajevo , bosnia herzegovina land historic hatreds , tiny jewish community serbian shells repay 50 year old debt muslims saved jews holocaust ceresnjes , president jewish community sarajevo , says 1 , 000 jews chose remain sarajevo , rather leave israel , keep feeding center medieval old town district running ceresnjes said partly gratitude muslims hid jews nazi occupation partly keep intact centuries old presence jews living sarajevo guns defending bosnia , fight bosnia keeping people alive , '' ceresnjes said student balkan history , ceresnjes said saw war coming ready plans evacuate children elderly year war erupted last april , ceresnjes said jewish center began stockpiling supplies , ensuring everyone passports arranging places israel europe well prepared , said , five days shooting began first plane left 2 , 000 jews bosnia herzegovina , estimates half left many stayed behind work sarajevo 's downtown synagogue , turned wartime feeding center far given away 380 , 000 meals center , shelled several times along sarajevo , also runs radio station , mail center distributes food packages sent jewish organizations around world muslims jews fighting mideast , jews say 's long tradition cooperation , inter marriage tolerance two communities sarajevo goes back centuries turkish occupation sarajevo 's jews trace ancestry back expulsion roman catholic spain 1492 community numbered 14 , 000 world war ii 10 survived holocaust carried pro nazi croatian ustache yugoslavia many survivors hidden muslim families sharon framingham , usa e mail sharon world std com tippu hassan
ohayon jcpltyo jcpl co jp \( tsiel ohayon \) subject rejoinder questions israelis organization james capel pacific limited , tokyo japan lines 40 article yuma acns colostate edu bh437292 lance colostate edu writes bh tsiel , bh would contend shelling sides border , bh starting early 70 's certainly plo shell northern bh israel region , israel much shelling bh destroying several south lebanese villages least bh say sides exchanged shelling , occasional bh aerial raids israel lebanese villages bh case steve 's characterization 1982 invasion bh response years shelling lebanon false israel bh many reasons invading mainly install government bh lebanon favorable israel , nearly achieved aim bh election el gemayel , brother , amin bh el gemayel , internal situation lebanon hard bh control predict israel withdraw , amin el gemayel bh 17 th may agreement basil , correcting steve 's statement shelling israel golan , absurd fact israel much shelling response palestinian shelling lebanon israel intention keeping inch lebanese territory israel continue fight , plo , etc long northern border quiet lebanese army control elements think see genuine peace israel lebanese border remind couple thousand lebanese cross day israel work election gemayel , true favorable israel , syrians killed \? brother amin syrian puppet , , would dead tsiel 8 8 tsiel ohayon jcpl co jp receive e mail , please let employer may know soon possible , possible opinions , ! two percent zero almost nothing
ohayon jcpltyo jcpl co jp \( tsiel ohayon \) subject peace talks resume organization james capel pacific limited , tokyo japan lines 44 article news service uci edu tim clock writes tc , , agree \( sort \) peace process needed \? tc particular points mentioned article \? tc israel \( supposedly \) going propose good \? go far \? tc far enough \? tc n't agree peace process needed , \? personally think peace process needed , since negotiations future generations able live stability unfortunately think like , cases like anas omran , hamza , jle , mohammed reza , abu abed , anwar mohammed others think jihad solution wish people \( including \) would objective views like tim , basil shai example put rhetoric aside start discussing substance view israel made gestures towards arab foes opposite given us proposed \? palestinians proposed \? palestinians would revoke rewrite charter , condemn acts palestinian violence would good start palestinians gain negotiations seems though strong enough make decisions plagued internal strife , getting anywhere fundamentalism slowly taking territories , late discuss issues palestinians since vow destruction israel arabs must take example egypt egypt came bargaining table , got wanted israel peace cooperation two countries tougher play ball israel tougher israel gets tsiel tsiel 8 8 tsiel ohayon jcpl co jp receive e mail , please let employer may know soon possible , possible opinions , ! two percent zero almost nothing
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject even today armenian genocide innocent muslim people continues reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 29 source channel 4 news 19 00 , monday 2 march 1992 2 french journalists seen 32 corpses men , women children civilian clothes many shot dead heads close less 1 meter source morning news 07 37 , tuesday 3 march 1992 bbc reporter live line claimed saw 100 bodies azeri men , women children well baby shot dead heads short distance source morning news 08 12 , tuesday 3 march 1992 disturbing picture shown many civilian corpses picked mountain reporter said , cameraman western journalists seen 100 corpses , men , women , children , massacred armenians shot dead heads close 1 meter picture also shown nearly ten bodies \( mainly women children \) shot dead heads azerbaijan claimed 1000 civilians massacred armenian forces serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject benjamin franklin reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 206 article 1993apr27 midway uchicago edu thf2 kimbark uchicago edu \( ted frank \) writes hamaza , racist , arun cited evidence show called racist prophecy 1934 forgery means prophecy exist address sources , actually care truth , rather spreading lies , bigotry , hatred coming self exposed historical revisionist , self admitted anti muslim genocide apologist , hamaza take drivel compliment furthermore , even deny obvious genocide muslims carried order fascist x soviet armenian government massacres muslims must studied detail , first modern example horrible crime genocide blame must armenians supporters murder muslims turkish historic homeland , emptied native population today , remains occupied x soviet armenian government today , x soviet armenia covers genocide perpetrated predecessors therefore accessory crime humanity x soviet armenia must pay crime genocide muslims admitting crime making reparations turks kurds following jewish armenian sources cold blooded genocide perpetrated x soviet armenian government 2 5 million muslim people 1914 1920 still denying obvious \? source stanford j shaw , armenian collaboration invading russian armies 1914 , history ottoman empire modern turkey \( volume ii reform , revolution republic rise modern turkey , 1808 1975 \) \( london , cambridge university press 1977 \) pp 315 316 april 1915 dashnaks russian armenia organized revolt city van , whose 33 , 789 armenians comprised 42 3 percent population , closest armenian majority city empire leaving erivan april 28 , 1915 , armenian volunteers reached van may 14 organized carried general slaughter local muslim population next two days knowing numbers would never justify territorial ambitions , armenians looked russia europe fulfillment aims armenian treachery regard culminated beginning first world war decision revolutionary organizations refuse serve state , ottoman empire , assist instead invading russian armies hope participation russian success would rewarded independent armenian state carved ottoman territories armenian political leaders , army officers , common soldiers began deserting droves russian invasion eastern anatolia 1914 beginning world war , degree armenian collaboration ottoman 's enemy increased drastically ottoman supply lines cut guerilla attacks , armenian revolutionaries armed armenian civil populations , turn massacred muslim population province van anticipation expected arrival invading russian armies source stanford j shaw , history ottoman empire modern turkey , vol ii cambridge university press , london , 1979 , pp 314 317 meanwhile , czar nicholas ii came caucasus make final plans cooperation armenians ottomans , president armenian national bureau tiflis declaring response countries armenians hurrying enter ranks glorious russian army , blood serve victory russian arms let russian flag wave freely dardanelles bosporus let , , great majesty , peoples remaining turkish yoke receive freedom let armenian people turkey suffered faith christ receive resurrection new free life protection russia ' 155 armenians flooded czarist armies preparations made strike ottomans rear , czar returned st petersburg confident day finally come reach istanbul 155 horizon , tiflis , november 30 , 1914 , quoted hovannisian , road independence , p 45 fo 2485 , 2484 46942 , 22083 ottoman morale military position east seriously hurt , way prepared new russian push eastern anatolia , accompanied open armenian revolt sultan 156 156 hovannisian , road independence , pp 45 47 , iii 1 , pp 349 380 w e allen p muratoff , caucasian battlefields , cambridge , 1953 , pp 251 277 ali , harb , 2 vols , ankara , 1951 , ii , 41 160 fo 2146 fo 2485 fo 2484 , nos 46942 22083 armenian state organized van russian protection , appeared muslim natives dead driven away , might able maintain one oldest centers ancient armenian civilization armenian legion organized 'to expel turks entire southern shore lake preparation concerted russian drive bitlis vilayet ' 162 thousands armenians mus major centers east began flood new armenian state mid july many 250 , 000 armenians crowded van area , crisis housed fed 50 , 000 people , muslim non muslim alike 163 162 hovannisian , road independence , p 56 , nos 163 , vukela mazbatalari , debates august 15 17 , 1915 ali evrak odasi , 175 , 321 , van ami , 1333 10 september 1915 source hovannisian , richard g armenia road independence , 1918 university california press \( berkeley los angeles \) , 1967 , p 13 addition kars batum oblasts empire increased area transcaucasia 130 , 000 square miles estimated population entire region 1886 4 , 700 , 000 , 940 , 000 \( 20 percent \) armenian , 1 , 200 , 000 \( 25 percent \) georgian , 2 , 220 , 000 \( 45 percent \) moslem latter group , 1 , 140 , 000 tatars paradoxically , barely one third transcaucasia 's armenians lived erevan guberniia , christians constituted majority three seven uezds erevan uezd , administrative center province , 44 , 000 armenians compared 68 , 000 moslems time russian census 1897 , however , armenians established scant majority , 53 percent , guberniia risen 1916 60 percent , 670 , 000 1 , 120 , 000 inhabitants impressive change province 's ethnic character notwithstanding , , eve creation armenian republic , solid block 370 , 000 tartars continued dominate southern districts , outskirts ereven border persia \( see also map 1 historic armenia map 4 administrative subdivisions transcaucasia \) 1920 , '0' percent turk closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape tartars proceeded work extermination troops surrounded village village little resistance offered artillery knocked huts heaps stone dust villages became untenable inhabitants fled fields , bullets bayonets completed work tartars escaped course found refuge mountains succeeded crossing border turkey rest killed whole length borderland russian armenia nakhitchevan akhalkalaki hot plains ararat cold mountain plateau north dotted mute mournful ruins tartar villages quiet , villages , except howling wolves jackals visit paw scattered bones dead ohanus appressian men like p 202 appropriate analogy jewish holocaust might systematic extermination entire muslim population independent republic armenia consisted least 30 40 percent population republic memoirs armenian army officer participated eye witnessed atrocities published u 1926 title 'men like ' references abound \( rachel bortnick jewish times june 21 , 1990 \) 1 men like leonard hartill , bobbs co , indianapolis , 1926 memoirs armenian army officer translated english published member american near east relief organization gives whole account genocide turkish moslem people armenia organized executed armenian government army also gives account countless massacres atrocities turkish people armenia 2 adventures near east , 1918 22 rawlinson , dodd , meade co , 1925 eyewitness account genocide british army officer 3 world alive , personal story robert dunn , crown publishers , inc , new york , 1952 another eyewitness account genocide american officer 4 sardarapat serves lousanne avetis aharonian , armenian review magazine , volume 15 \( fall 1962 \) 17 \( spring 1964 \) memoirs chief armenian delegate paris peace conference published armenian review magazine 13 articles volume 15 \( fall 1962 \) volume 17 \( spring 1964 \) memoirs include interview aharonian british foreign minister lord curzon mentioned genocide discussed official report mentioned lord curzon report british high commissioner , sir oliver wardrop serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject turkish genocide incontrovertibly proven historians , reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 353 article panix com panix com \( michael \) writes one categories \( believe number turks feeling european \) made typo , corrected another posting right afterwards \? poor see 're preparing groundwork yet another retreat asala sdpa arf' claims hasan b mutlu serdar argic posting stuff attributed errors past love ever happen , look window see non fascist nazi x soviet armenian government east way , ignorance armenian genocide 2 5 million muslim people hardly characteristic 'arromdians' source k papazian , patriotism perverted , baikar press , boston , 1934 pp 17 18 seems terrorism co nationals prominent part revolutionary activities dashnag leaders caucasus organized fight turks , successful fight armenian opponents turkey , caucasus , often defenseless innocent p 38 fact remains , however , leaders turkish armenian section dashnagtzoutune carry promise loyalty turkish cause turks entered war call sent armenian volunteers fight turks caucasian front p 38 thousands armenians world , standards famous fighters antranik , , dro , etc armenian volunteer rendered valuable service russian army years 1914 15 16 got map \? got minute \? source 1 mccarthy , j , muslims minorities , population ottoman anatolia end empire , new york university press , new york , 1983 , pp 133 144 source 2 hovannisian , richard g , armenia road independence , 1918 university california press \( berkeley los angeles \) , 1967 , p 13 non existent list scholars publicly available scholarly sources mine 'arromdian' references eminent authors field middle eastern history eyewitnesses armenian genocide 2 5 million muslims 1 armenian revolutionary movement louise nalbandian , university california press , berkeley , los angeles , 1975 2 diplomacy imperialism 1890 1902 william lenger , professor history , harward university , boston , alfred knopt , new york , 1951 3 turkey europe sir charles elliot , edward arnold , london , 1900 4 chatnam house version middle eastern studies elie kedouri , praeger publishers , new york , washington , 1972 5 rising crescent ernest jackh , farrar reinhart , inc , new york toronto , 1944 6 spiritual political evolutions islam felix valyi , mogan , paul , trench truebner co , london , 1925 7 struggle power moslem asia e alexander powell , century co , new york , london , 1924 8 struggle transcaucasia feruz kazemzadeh , yale university press , new , conn , 1951 9 history ottoman empire modern turkey \( 2 volumes \) stanford j shaw , cambridge university press , cambridge , new york , melbourne , 1977 10 western question greece turkey arnold j toynbee , constable co , ltd , london , bombay sydney , 1922 11 caliph 's last heritage sir mark sykes , macmillan co , london , 1915 12 men like leonard hartill , bobbs co , indianapolis , 1928 13 adventures near east , 1918 22 rawlinson , dodd , meade co , 1925 14 world alive , personal story robert dunn , crown publishers , inc , new york , 1952 15 sardarapat serves lousanne avetis aharonian , armenian review magazine , volume 15 \( fall 1962 \) 17 \( spring 1964 \) 16 armenia road independence richard g hovanessian , university california press , berkeley , california , 1967 17 rebirth turkey clair price , thomas seltzer , new york , 1923 18 caucasian battlefields w b allen paul muratoff , cambridge , 1953 19 partition turkey harry n howard , h fertig , new york , 1966 20 king crane commission harry n howard , beirut , 1963 21 united states policy partition turkey laurence evans , john hopkins university press , baltimore , 1965 22 british documents related turkish war independence gothard jaeschke 1 neside kerem demir , bir sehid anasina tarihin soyledikleri turkiye'nin ermeni meselesi , hulbe basim yayin , ankara , 1982 \( ingilizce birinci baski 1980 , armenian question turkey \) 2 veysel eroglu , ermeni mezalimi , sebil yayinevi , istanbul , 1978 3 alper gazigiray , osmanlilardan gunumuze kadar vesikalarla ermeni teroru'nun kaynaklari , gozen kitabevi , istanbul , 1982 4 dr kirzioglu fahrettin , kars ili cevresinde ermeni mezalimi , kardes matbaasi , ankara , 1970 c basbakanlik osmanli arsivi , babiali , istanbul \) yildiz esas evraki b \) yildiz perakende c \) irade defterleri \) cemaat gayr muslime defterleri e \) meclisi vukela mazbatalari f \) dahiliye nezareti , kalem mahsus dosyalari g \) dahiliye nezareti , sifre defterleri h \) babiali evrak odasi siyasi kartonlar \) babiali evrak odasi muhimme kartonlari c disisleri bakanligi , hazine evrak , defterdarlik \) harb umumi b \) muteferrik kartonlar british archives \) parliamentary papers \( hansard \) commons lords b \) foreign office confidential print various collections c \) foreign office 424 239 253 turkey correspondence annual reports \) foreign office 608 e \) foreign office 371 , political intelligence general correspondence f \) foreign office 800 240 , ryan papers g \) foreign office 800 151 , curzon papers h \) foreign office 839 eastern conference lausanne 53 files india office records library , blackfriars road , london \) l political security 10 851 855 \( five boxes \) , turkey treaty peace 1918 1923 b \) l p 10 1031 , near east turkey greece lausanne conference , 1921 1923 c \) l p 11 154 \) l p 11 1031 french archives archives du ministere des affaires entrangeres , quai d'orsay , paris \) documents diplomatiques affaires armeniens 1895 1914 collections b \) guerre 1914 1918 turquie legion d'orient c \) levant , 1918 1929 armenie official publications , published documents , diplomatic correspondence , agreements , minutes others turkey \( ottoman empire republic turkey \) akarli , e \( ed \) belgelerle tanzimat , \( istanbul , 1978 \) \( gn kur , atase \) askeri tarih belgeleri dergisi , v xxxi \( 81 \) , \( dec 1982 \) askeri tarih belgeleri dergisi , v xxxii \( 83 \) , \( dec 1983 \) hocaoglu , \( ed \) ittihad anasir osmaniye heyeti nizamnamesi , \( istanbul , 1912 \) meray , l \( trans ed \) lozan baris konferansi tutanaklar belgeler , \( ankara , 1978 \) , 2 vols meray , l olcay \( ed \) osmanli imparatorlugu'nun cokus belgeleri mondros birakismasi , sevr andlasmasi , ilgili belgeler , \( ankara , 1977 \) \( osmanli devleti , dahiliye nezareti \) aspirations et agissements revolutionnaires des comites armeniens avant et apres la proclamation de la constitution ottomane , \( istanbul , 1917 \) ermeni komitelerinin amal hareket ihtilaliyesi ilan mesrutiyetten evvel sonra , \( istanbul , 1916 \) idare umumiye vilayet kanunu , \( istanbul , 1913 \) muharrerat umumiye mecmuasi , v \( istanbul , 1914 \) muharrerat umumiye mecmuasi , v ii \( istanbul , 1915 \) muharrerat umumiye mecmuasi , v iii \( istanbul , 1916 \) muharrerat umumiye mecmuasi , v iv \( istanbul , 1917 \) \( osmanli devleti , hariciye nezareti \) imtiyazat ecnebiyye'nin lagvindan dolayi memurine teblig olunacak talimatname , \( istanbul , 1915 \) \( osmanli devleti , harbiye nezareti \) islam ahalinin ducar olduklari mezalim hakkinda vesaike mustenid malumat , \( istanbul , 1919 \) \( iv ordu \) aliye divan harbi orfisinde tedkik olunan mesele yi siyasiye hakkinda izahat , \( istanbul , 1916 \) turkozu , h k \( ed \) osmanli sovyet belgeleriyle ermeni mezalimi , \( ankara , 1982 \) turkiye buyuk millet meclisi gizli celse zabitlari , \( ankara , 1985 \) , 4 vols russia adamof , e e \( ed \) sovyet devlet arsivi belgeleriyle anadolu'nun taksimi plani , \( tran h rahmi , ed h mutlucag \) , \( istanbul , 1972 \) altinay , r iki komite iki kital , \( istanbul , 1919 \) kafkas yollarinda hatiralar tahassusler , \( istanbul , 1919 \) turkiye 'de katolik propagandasi , turk tarihi encumeni mecmuasi , v xiv 82 5 \( sept 1924 \) asaf muammer harb mesulleri , \( istanbul , 1918 \) akboy , c birinci dunya harbinde turk harbi , v osmanli imparatorlugu'nun siyasi askeri hazirliklari harbe girisi , \( gn kur , ankara , 1970 \) akgun , general harbord'un anadolu gezisi \( ermeni meselesi'ne dair \) raporu kurtulus savasi baslangicinda , \( istanbul , 1981 \) akin , turk devrim tarihi , \( istanbul , 1983 \) aksin , jon turkler ittihad terakki , \( istanbul , 1976 \) basar , z \( ed \) ermenilerden gorduklerimiz , \( ankara , 1974 \) ermeniler hakkinda makaleler derlemeler , \( ankara , 1978 \) belen , f birinci dunya harbinde turk harbi , \( ankara , 1964 \) deliorman , turklere karsi ermeni komitecileri , \( istanbul , 1980 \) ege , n n \( ed \) prens sabahaddin hayati ilmi mudafaalari , \( istanbul , 1977 \) ercikan , ermenilerin bizans osmanli imparatorluklarindaki rolleri , \( ankara , 1949 \) gurun , k 'ermeni sorunu yahut bir sorun nasil yaratilir \? ' , turk tarihinde ermeniler sempozyumu , \( izmir , 1983 \) hocaoglu , arsiv vesikalariyla tarihte ermeni mezalimi ermeniler , \( istanbul , 1976 \) karal , e osmanli tarihi , v v \( 1983 , 4th ed \) v vi \( 1976 , 2nd ed \) v vii \( 1977 , 2nd ed \) v viii \( 1983 , 2nd ed \) ankara kurat , osmanli imparatorlugu'nun paylasilmasi , \( ankara , 1976 \) orel , yuca ermenilerce talat pasa'ya atfedilen telgraflarin icyuzu , \( ankara , 1983 \) also english translation ahmad , f young turks committee union progress turkish politics , \( oxford , 1969 \) first world war ensuing years 1914 1920 , armenian dictatorship premeditated systematic genocide , tried complete centuries old policy annihilation turks kurds savagely murdering 2 5 million muslims deporting rest 1 , 000 year homeland attempt genocide justly regarded first instance genocide 20th century acted upon entire people event incontrovertibly proven historians , government international political leaders , u ambassador mark bristol , william langer , ambassador layard , james barton , stanford shaw , arthur chester , john dewey , robert dunn , papazian , nalbandian , ohanus appressian , jorge blanco villalta , general nikolayef , general bolkovitinof , general prjevalski , general odiselidze , meguerditche , kazimir , motayef , twerdokhlebof , general hamelin , rawlinson , avetis aharonian , dr stephan eshnanie , varandian , general bronsart , arfa , dr hamlin , boghos nubar , sarkis atamian , katchaznouni , rachel bortnick , halide edip , mccarthy , w b allen , paul muratoff many others j c hurewitz , professor government emeritus , former director middle east institute \( 1971 1984 \) , columbia university bernard lewis , cleveland e dodge professor near eastern history , princeton university halil inalcik , university professor ottoman history member american academy arts sciences , university chicago peter golden , professor history , rutgers university , newark stanford shaw , professor history , university california los angeles thomas naff , professor history director , middle east research institute , university pennsylvania ronald jennings , associate professor history asian studies , university illinois howard reed , professor history , university connecticut dankwart rustow , distinguished university professor political science , city university graduate school , new york john woods , associate professor middle eastern history , university chicago john masson smith , jr , professor history , university california berkeley alan fisher , professor history , michigan state university avigdor levy , professor history , brandeis university andreas g e bodrogligetti , professor history , university california los angeles kathleen burrill , associate professor turkish studies , columbia university roderic davison , professor history , george washington university walter denny , professor history , university massachusetts caesar farah , professor history , university minnesota tom goodrich , professor history , indiana university pennsylvania tibor halasi kun , professor emeritus turkish studies , columbia university justin mccarthy , professor history , university louisville jon mandaville , professor history , portland state university \( oregon \) robert olson , professor history , university kentucky madeline zilfi , professor history , university maryland james stewart robinson , professor turkish studies , university michigan list goes serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject book dealing genocide muslims armenians reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 311 article sfu ca kits sfu ca \( \) writes make sound turks inocent virgin get married go read atrocities commited turks greeks period time greece occupied turks expect turks living greece treated like , greek educational system also shambles history shows within last 170 years , greeks played game twice used istanbul patriarch instigate morea rebellion resulted massacres muslim people , orthodox patriarch constantine v invited russian czar nicholas ii invade ottoman empire 'in name jesus , ' save flock ottoman rule source medieval modern greek culture , , ed , kai , ' vol \( , calif , 1978 \) p 161 words professor , savage , greeks sang words 'let turk remain morea , whole world ' greeks determined achieve way knew war religious extermination let improve one ottoman empire lost world war , british landed 1919 200 , 000 greek army izmir exterminate people turkiye suffering severe case amnesia \? tired defeated turks rose , formed national force leadership mustafa kemal , august 30 , 1922 annihilated bulk greek army wait , greek war independence brought disaster jewish communities , revolution erupted 1821 jews , close association ottoman administration , massacred along turks jewish communities , , decimated survivors moved north settle , still ottoman rule lost ancient jewish community , nikos , page ix source professor stanford j shaw , 'the jews ottoman empire turkish republic , ' new york university press , new york \( 1991 \) page 187 disintegration ottoman empire going century disastrous ottoman jewry age nationalism among christian subjects sultan , starting greek revolution early nineteenth century , , based idea , great idea , sought add greek kingdom istanbul large portions anatolia , union greece felt hope success greek national movement , provided fact intervention great powers efforts greeks , stimulated similar among subjects southeastern europe long oppressed , much ottomans , rather , greek religious hierarchy dominated orthodox millet , leading first pressure religious independence , granted bulgarian orthodox 1870 , serbian church 1879 , church 1885 , subsequent aspirations , achievement , political independence following page 188 new nationalist leaders greatly assisted campaigns ottomans diplomatic representatives major powers europe also christian missionaries , emphasized feelings christian superiority hatred muslims jews fortified religious well ethnic bases pursuit independence christian nationalism , based much religious ethnic identity , soon resurrected medieval devastated jews muslims consequently driven together past vicious anti muslim anti semitic movements developed , involving large scale persecutions massacres carried invading armies , independent states resulted , also christian subjects remained within empire , particularly jewish muslim support ottoman integrity fear fate nationalist states southeastern europe results explosive damaging invading armies russia austria well revolting nationalists , later , successfully established independent christian states , committed systematic genocide jews muslims throughout nineteenth century , despite great power admonitions contrary treaties paris \( 1858 \) berlin \( \) , page 188 peoples southeastern europe achieved independence , muslim jewish minorities systematically persecuted massacred , survived driven beyond ever shrinking boundaries retreating ottoman empire kind slaughter seen since dispersal jews palestine centuries earlier sort genocide begun long late sixteenth century , principalities taking lead , united rumania subsequently later years nineteenth century ruler , peter lame , banished jews competition christian merchants prince micheal brave revolted ottomans principalities , ordered massacre jews well turks page 189 slaughter continued well nineteenth century greeks revolted ottoman rule many greek volunteers coming russia principalities join effort slaughtered plundered jewish communities along paths went toward greece page 190 \( second paragraph \) occupied island , jewish population either massacred deported jewish communal personal property stolen native greek population , leaving jews returned utter poverty reduced begging , longer able compete greeks trade commerce page 190 \( third paragraph \) jews living greece principalities suffered terribly support ottoman rule greek nationalist movement started uprising spring 1821 , hundreds jews muslims killed greeks lived well native 14 height greek revolution , five thousand jews massacred morea along muslim population , numbering twenty thousand 15 alone 1 , 200 jews massacred along turks 16 reverend john hartley , describing carnage , concluded jewish blood , turkish , flow streets captured city sons isaac sons , well every occasion greek revolution , met common fate corpses cast city , , like ancient sovereign judah , received burial superior ass ' 17 jewish communities islands , , , , wiped bands greek rebels along , , 18 surviving jews fled island corfu , jews fled italy , peninsula lived peace prosperity rule since century , though divided rival greek italian communities long , however , fell victim greek revolution , leading savage repression massacres jews , forcing surviving members two communities come together self defense first time throughout years greek revolution , greek nationalists went town town mainland island island agean , jews muslims could find , many along roads desperately fled safety left ottoman empire contemporary accounts relate greeks left murdered jews muslims lying exposed bodies could torn apart 19 jews survived massacres fled across agean small boats izmir , thus starting rise one leading centers ottoman jewish life nineteenth century northern greece , particularly areas salonica , jews turks able successfully resist greek assaults , thus saving populations massacre well 20 remainder 19th century , particularly greek turkish war 1897 , jews remained greece areas athens , , , corfu suffered severe persecution massacre , forcing thousands ottoman territory , particularly salonica izmir 21 page 193 \( last paragraph \) inclusion treaty berlin providing protection jewish muslim minorities southeastern europe stimulated popular anti semitic anti muslim countries involved , blood libel accusations used pretexts attacking jewish quarters well new tactics jewish , merchants professionals , movement quickly adapted christian major cities ottoman empire , greeks correctly regarded jews supporters turks , jews turks expelled countries equally atrocious brutal manners property plundered homes shops taken without compensation , survivors fled desperation edirne istanbul official statements subsequently issued granting equal rights jews , little done fact continued persecuted regularly well twentieth century page 194 \( last paragraph \) things much better elsewhere southeastern europe greek islands agean eastern mediterranean jews corfu subjected severe persecution local greeks due revival old ritual murder accusations 26 many survived found refuge ottoman territory help popular subscription drive carried istanbul leadership 1881 , 1903 , thousands jews came ottoman territory result pogroms russia went 1881 1921 slight periods 1899 jewish families arrived istanbul flight persecution , independent bulgaria conquest ottoman thrace macedonia greek bulgarian forces balkan wars \( 1912 13 \) , including salonica , corlu , edirne , followed general attacks jews , synagogues , homes shops , countries 27 , resulting renewed exodus toward istanbul beyond two reports salonica graphically described situation caused invading armies 'all self interested justifications newspapers europe , lies used cover truth , never destroy impression terrible anguish marked entry greeks salonica week terror horror one never easily forget cruelly feel today damage explosion hatred \( greek \) population done cause mob shown odious government weak incompetence greek administration horrors inflicted soldiers put terrible situation consuls guaranteed absolute safety muslims , sixty massacred single night ' 28 'it n't irregulars \( \) massacred , pillaged burned soldiers army , chief police , high civil officials took active part events 6 , 000 houses , 4 , 000 burned almost 1 , 200 shops consumed flames destructive bombs \( jewish \) population lost , without even anything wear despair everyone wants ' 29 page 196 result assaults , massacres , forced deportations independent countries southeastern europe , ottoman empire received literally thousands jewish refugees joined muslims survived persecution , flooding empire 14 , \( jerusalem , 1945 \) , pp 42 44 , cited kerem , 'the influence anti semitism jewish immigration patterns greece ottoman empire 19th , pp 2 , 14 15 , sur la grece , pour de la guerre de \( 2 vols , paris , \) , pp 5 19 galante , et \( istanbul , 1932 \) , 76 77 16 rev hughes , travels greece albania \( 2nd edn , 2 vols , london , 1830 \) , ii , 194 95 17 rev john hartley , greece levant \( london , \) , 207 , quoted kerem , 'jewish immigration patterns greece ottoman empire nineteenth , published paper delivered international d'etudes pre et , viii symposium , making transmission authority turkic system' , university minnesota , minneapolis , minnesota , 14 19 august 1988 , p 4 18 hartley , ibid , pp 206 7 , william martin , travels northern greece \( 2 vols , london , 1835 \) ii , 231 32 , 609 , athens auschwitz \( athens , 1983 \) , p ix , quoted kerem , ibid , p 14 19 documented kerem , ibid , pp 14 19 pearl l , jews corfu \( greece \) , unpublished ph dissertation , new york university , 1984 , history greek revolution \( london , 1861 \) , 172 , 179 86 see also , ej vii , 876 77 20 , ee thessaloniki ton tis \( salonica , 1946 \) , pp 19 35 kerem , outline history jews \( hebrew \) \( museum kibbutz , , 1985 \) , p 21 , quoted kerem , ibid , p 15 21 kerem , ibid , pp 8 12 , 'the persecution , times \( london \) , 16 may aiu , 19 october 1898 , aiu , grece viii b 34 , \( \) aiu , 23 august 4 september , , grece , serie , 18 , et 2e , \( \) aiu , 5 june , aiu grece , c 22 aiu aiu , 23 june 5 july 1897 , aiu , grece ii b 16 jewish community leaders aiu , 3 march , 1897 , aiu , grece viii b 35 26 pearl l , jews corfu \( greece \) , unpublished ph dissertation , new york university , 1984 27 leon , farewell salonica portrait era \( new york , 1946 \) edgar , et les \( paris , , 1989 \) , 55 67 paul , 'the social structure jewish community salonica end nineteenth , southeastern europe v \( 1979 \) , 33 72 galante , viii , 18 21 , pp 178 80 28 cohen , ecole moise allatini , salonica , aiu , paris , 7 , 4 december 1912 , aiu archives c 49 29 , president aiu salonica , aiu \( paris \) , 3 , 25 july 1913 aiu archives \( paris \) c 51 \( aiu alliance israelite universelle , paris \) need go \? serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject armenian grandparents admitted unspeakable crimes reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 283 article 1993apr27 leland stanford edu arto leland stanford edu \( \) writes machine continues swing mr argic mutlu co still functioning surprised find finally looked newsgroup beginning fascist x soviet armenian government get away genocide 2 5 million turks kurds , 204 , 000 azeri people criminal grandparents committed unheard crimes , resorted conceivable methods despotism , organized massacres , poured petrol babies burned , raped women girls front parents bound hand foot , took girls mothers fathers appropriated personal property real estate today , put azeris unbearable conditions nation ever known history fascist grandparents admitted unspeakable crimes deny \? genocide truth criminal nazi armenians \? chance source men like leonard ramsden hartill bobbs merrill company , indianapolis \( 1926 \) \( 305 pages \) \( memoirs armenian officer participated genocide 2 5 million muslim people \) example , camped one night half ruined tartar mosque , habitable building destroyed village , near border persia russian armenia course evening asked ohanus could tell anything history village cause destruction matter fact way replied , yes , assisted sack destruction , witnessed slaying whose bones saw day scattered among ruins p 202 \( first second paragraphs \) closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape tartars proceeded work extermination troops surrounded village village little resistance offered artillery knocked huts heaps stone dust villages became untenable inhabitants fled fields , bullets bayonets completed work tartars escaped course found refuge mountains succeeded crossing border turkey rest killed whole length borderland russian armenia nakhitchevan akhalkalaki hot plains ararat cold mountain plateau north dotted mute mournful ruins tartar villages quiet , villages , except howling wolves jackals visit paw scattered bones dead p 15 \( second paragraph \) tartars , part , poor lived villages cultivated small farms many continued way life nomadic forefathers drove flocks herds valley valley , plain mountain , mountain plain , following changed seasons ranged salt desert shores caspian sea far mighty caucasus mountains even village tartars primitive people , see armenians frankly despised tartars , , holding disproportionate share wealth country , regarded treated fact russians looked upon armenians much way armenians regarded tartars , far proving bond racially different neighbors , intensified attitude conduct part served exacerbate hostility p 20 \( second paragraph \) men armed , gathered together advanced tartar section village lights houses doors barred , tartars suspected happen great fear men hammered doors , got response whereupon smashed doors began carnage continued last tartar slain throughout hideous night , home terror , unable shut ears piercing screams helpless victims loud shouts men morning work finished p 109 \( second paragraph \) things , members party without administrative experience consequently government instituted quickly proved incompetent rule legitimate means members government working secret outside law became legally instituted , recognized governing body destiny armenia hands , proved incompetent better resume terrorist tactics characterized fight russian turkish governments outlaw days outstanding feature rule , power , , old days , trial execution without hearing man displeasure government official would tried condemned without arrest preference charges method execution government walk behind condemned man home street , place pistol back head blow brains simple way getting rid undesirable view government soon became common way paying debts p 203 \( first paragraph \) soldier succeeded driving bayonet tartar saw point weapon emerge back another soldier seized rock pounded tartar 's head armenian bayoneted sprang feet , weapon tartar 's body , , raising lips , clean blood , russian , ! ! ' \( sweet \) p 203 \( second paragraph \) one evening passed tartar village among ruins fire burning went fire saw seated group soldiers among two tartar girls , mere children girls ground , crying softly suppressed lying scattered ground broken household furnishings tartar peasant homes also bodies dead p 204 \( first paragraph \) soon asleep night awakened persistent crying child arose went investigate full moon enabled make way revealed wreck litter tragedy enacted guided child 's crying , entered yard house , judged appearance must home turkish family corner yard found women dead throat cut lying breast small child , girl year old p 118 slowly train along snow , cart loads boys ran along line , encouraging shrill tartar cries , beasts sticks carts , women , veiled tartar way , held children arms wrapped huddled among goods burdened carts sought protection wind cold old men plodded along foot across road barrier thrown leading reached barrier halted gunmen concealed among rocks opened fire women children scrambled carts , screamed , ran sought vainly safety massacre complete armenian soldiers near barracks , hearing firing turmoil , scene day abandoned tartar quarter completely destroyed p 192 great swarms peasants come hiding places retreat turks followed army advanced entered city army immediately began plundering stores left turks p 193 terrible vengeance taken upon tartars , kurds turks villages destroyed slain driven country p 195 fanatical dashnacks hated turks others order diminishing intensity tartars , kurds russians p 218 \( first second paragraphs \) russian troops terrible things turkish villages armenians spare tartars persisted , slaughtering prisoners , looting , rape massacre helpless become commonplace actions expected accepted matter course scenes massacres dead lay ground , numbers , like fallen leaves forest helpless defenseless sheep died soldiers die heat battle , fired courage , weapons hands , exchanging blow blow died helpless must , hearts brains bursting horror worse death p 133 \( first paragraph \) movement took us three thousand turkish soldiers captured russians left hands russians abandoned struggle retreat two thousand poor devils cruelly put death sickened brutality displayed , could make effective protest , mercifully , shot many burned death method employed put quantity straw hut , hut turks , set fire straw p 19 \( first paragraph \) tartar section town longer existed , except pile ruins destroyed inhabitants slaughtered fate befell tartar section p 22 \( second paragraph \) many men served russian army , trained soldiers armenians rich possessed arms tartars never received military training poor , possessed arms beyond knives shortly killing tartars village , revolution russia suppressed p 97 \( third paragraph \) within years , following beginning movement , invisible government armenians armenians established turkish armenia armed opposition turkish government secret government courts laws army called \( professional killers \) enforce decrees p 98 \( first paragraph \) dashnacks continual open rebellion turkish government p 98 \( third paragraph \) dashnacks engineered general revolt armenians turkish armenia mistaken belief european nations would intervene secure independence turkish armenia p 99 \( second paragraph \) dashnacks fanatics p 99 \( third paragraph \) dashnacks took advantage situation extended revolutionary activities russian province instituted campaign terrorism employed threats force securing contributions party funds rich armenians wealthy man would assessed stipulated sum refusal pay brought upon sentence death every member party pledged carry orders without question man assassinated , lots might drawn select executioner job might assigned one party p 130 \( first paragraph \) moments victory turks kurds tartars , armenians seeking vengeance p 130 \( third paragraph \) city scene confusion terror early days war , russian troops invaded turkey , large numbers turkish population abandoned homes fled russian advance p 159 \( second paragraph \) made cannon , huge gun lift required four men made balls cannon armenians could knock tartar houses able drive tartars p 181 \( first paragraph \) tartar villages ruins p 189 \( third paragraph \) dead tartar lay head pool mud blood , beard still serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
adam endor uucp \( adam shostack \) subject final solution gaza \? organization aiken computation lab , harvard university lines 18 article igc apc org center policy research cpr igc apc org writes basically three alternatives gaza 4 annex gaza egypt 5 annex gaza israel 6 maintain status quo 7 partition gaza jewish arab state n't support , felt like pointing way three solutions next time , maybe 'll see research adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu budget big enough drugs sexual favors , sure would n't waste members congress john perry barlow
adam endor uucp \( adam shostack \) subject deir yassin organization aiken computation lab , harvard university lines 88 article 1993apr28 virginia edu rj3s virginia edu \( get thee nunnery \) writes hm cs brown edu writes article 1993apr26 virginia edu rj3s virginia edu \( get thee nunnery \) writes rj3s , say evidence motivated irgun attack dir yassin strategic importance fact , begin , charge irgun , wrote dir yassin attacked military significance dir yassin merely battle war liberation people died thing never intended tragedy war crime irgun agree harry , however must also concede arab terrorism also tragedy war one forced blow airplanes terrorism choice made people want work peace remember palestinians effective target civilians order cause lots military targets israel lots targets israel old ladies , children , civilians general acceptable targets person kill civilian , hold fire means ca n't kill anyone , ca n't kill anyone claiming targets acceptable easy kills rediculous irgun attack civilian targets terrorize order might obtain objective , i'm sure would done make policy \? also n't exclude irgun 's action british soldiers terrorism mean excuse \? \) killing soldier killing civilian two different acts british showing signs favoring compromise regards palestine , irgun branch groups made point kill young british mothers fathers back britain would get angry continued presence palestine , killed soldiers british government would leave objective scare , show cost staying way high contrast , terrorist kills scare use random violence people make point one safe demands met analogy would irgun blowing 10 downing sounds like form terrorism , much removed arab terrorism thats missed essential point arab terrorism , scare away israel , killing something israel kill jews might zionists kill people live israel live targets rarely soldiers , people understand might attacked line duty , innocent civilians , underscore message one deals israel safe 'll reiterate sides screwy , 'll favor underdog case think bit screwed oh , mean favor israelis , 2 1 , , surrounded hostile states one signed peace treaty 45 years \? favor jews , people like leon , cripple thrown boat jewish \? support right jewish people live peace \? , thank support adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu budget big enough drugs sexual favors , sure would n't waste members congress john perry barlow
adam endor uucp \( adam shostack \) subject zionism organization aiken computation lab , harvard university lines 22 article 1 cs cmu edu anwar cs cmu edu \( anwar mohammed \) writes organization trying distribute nazi propaganda furthermore , attempt rationalize crude stereotyping pointing wtc bombing , arab americans involvement huh \? mohamed perhaps korean \? claim arab americans involvement wtc bombing \? ok , involvement alleged fbi , n't seem reliable days honestly , pile evidence pointing , seems 5 involved mean arab americans involved , blamed , denying arab americans involved sounds sorta silly adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu budget big enough drugs sexual favors , sure would n't waste members congress john perry barlow
jaskew spam maths adelaide edu au \( joseph askew \) subject jews arab countries \( israeli terrorism \) organization statistics , pure applied mathematics , university adelaide lines 45 article usenet ins cwru edu cl056 cleveland freenet edu \( hamaza h salah \) writes previous article , yfn ysu edu \( \) says previous article , bc744 cleveland freenet edu \( mark ira kaufman \) says many readers know anything jews living arab countries \? many know jews still live countries \? many know circumstances arabic jews leaving homelands \? curious last arab country syria migrated due jewish state economical dilemma ! idea guy means syrian jews allowed leave syria assad promise letting go israel nothing arab countries still small communities left arab countries largest group think comprising perhaps thousand \( lost exact figure maybe someone kind post \) communities left yemen \( went polls yesterday might appear free ish election \) , algeria \( tiny group , couple leftist intellectuals think \) , course syria circumstances departure jews various arab countries controversial cases like iraq want get dispute egypt expelled community outright french north african jews left rather face independence think might encouraged antisemitic acts sure someone else around know sure claims israeli officers spread rumours around algeria jews would welcome probably propaganda would take stupid person realise benefits move france \( \) israel jews israel left rumoured another last year heard nothing guess rumour left except iraq \? joseph askew joseph askew , gauche proud autumn stillness , see pleiades , jaskew spam maths adelaide edu remote thorny deserts , fell grief disclaimer \? sue , see care north tents , sky must end somwhere , actually , rather like brenda beyond pale , river murmurs
khan0095 nova gmi edu \( mohammad razi khan \) subject hate filled newsgroup ! ! ! ! organization gmi engineering management institute , flint , mi distribution world lines 25 ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) writes geez , think people long net , going convince anyone anything violent language , one wonders many violent tounges n't know think point ask lousy question everyone started calling names 's gotten hand start associating yassir arafat \( way think idiot \) gosh guys lighten try least pretend reasonable still n't understand antisemitic stuff posted think guys looking get offended sense need get life mohammad r khan khan0095 nova gmi edu july '93 , please send mail mkhan nyx cs du edu
adam endor uucp \( adam shostack \) subject israeli terrorism organization aiken computation lab , harvard university lines 93 article 1993apr28 virginia edu ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) writes adam endor uucp writes article 1993apr25 1373 virginia edu ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) writes un tried many times condemn israel gross violation human rights un also failed condemn gross violations human rights many places around globe middle east , thus leading many people conclude un biased chooses condemn short , incomplete list things un n't even consider condemning incident security council response 1 hindu moslem clash india , 2 , 000 killed , 1990 none 2 gassing death 8 , 000 kurds none iraqi air force , 1988 89 3 saudi security forces slaughter none 400 pilgrims mecca , 1987 4 killing algerian army 500 demonstrators , 1988 none 5 \( arabs killing arabs \) 300 killed none 6 30 , 000 civilians slaughtered government none troops hama , syria , 1982 7 killing 5 , 000 palestinians jordanian troops , none thousands expelled , sept , 1970 8 87 moslems killed egypt , 1981 none 9 77 killed bread riots , 1977 none 10 30 border rocket attacks israel none plo 1989 alone 11 munich , 1972 11 israeli athletes slaughtered none 12 , 1974 children killed plo attack none 13 israel coastal bus attack 34 dead , 82 wounded none 14 syria kills 23 , 000 palestinians , 1976 none 15 lebanon 150 , 000 dead since 1975 none 16 yemen 13 , 000 killed two weeks , 1986 none 17 sudan tens thousands black slaves , none civil war toll , 1 million killed , 3 million refugees 18 square massacre 1989 none 19 rumania , 3 , 000 killed , 1989 none 20 pan 103 disaster carried p l none 21 northern ireland none 22 cambodia none 23 soviet occupation afghanistan none 24 american riots , watts , newark , kent state none 25 1981 israel destroys iraqi , israel condemned 26 1990 israeli police protect israeli worshipers condemned arab mob , 18 anti jewish rioters killed 27 syrian soldiers slaughter christian soldiers none surrender , 1990 wow , source news around world would seem israel treated unfairly ok , n't like say would care demonstrate list , expanded version chose post , demonstrates fairness actions un wrt israel \? luckily , case suggest reading european papers rather israeli propaganda \( arab papers would n't hurt either see propaganda side \) make odd assumption read israeli papers , european ones main source news economist , london based magazine also , rare , read arab papers , hard find english language papers arab countries anyway example happens people chose read n't get wrong , perfectly within rights n't go acting like 're objective ever claimed objective \? pointed , 27 item list , israel condemned actions nations condemned go attack reading israeli newspapers 'd like debate , please 'd like make ad attacks , feel free try mask one another adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu budget big enough drugs sexual favors , sure would n't waste members congress john perry barlow
ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) subject israeli terrorism organization university virginia lines 88 tclock orion oac uci edu writes ob article 1993apr28 virginia edu ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) writes adam endor uucp writes article 1993apr25 1373 virginia edu ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) writes un tried many times condemn israel gross violation human rights un also failed condemn gross violations human rights many places around globe middle east , thus leading many people conclude un biased chooses condemn short , incomplete list things un n't even consider condemning incident security council response 2 gassing death 8 , 000 kurds none iraqi air force , 1988 89 6 30 , 000 civilians slaughtered government none troops hama , syria , 1982 7 killing 5 , 000 palestinians jordanian troops , none thousands expelled , sept , 1970 14 syria kills 23 , 000 palestinians , 1976 none 16 yemen 13 , 000 killed two weeks , 1986 none 17 sudan tens thousands black slaves , none civil war toll , 1 million killed , 3 million refugees 19 rumania , 3 , 000 killed , 1989 none 21 northern ireland none 22 cambodia \( killing fields , 1 2 million murdered \) none 27 syrian soldiers slaughter christian soldiers none surrender , 1990 adam shostack adam das harvard edu wow , source news around world would seem israel treated unfairly luckily , case suggest reading european papers rather israeli propaganda \( arab papers would n't hurt either see propaganda side \) anyway example happens people chose read n't get wrong , perfectly within rights n't go acting like 're objective i'm unclear saying events \? know , un neither condemned expressed outrage events listed \( retained reflected policies murder abuse \) irrelevent fact \? expect israel 's abusive policies condemned appropriate , saying notice degree selective morality un 's part \? also find convenient \( easy \) blithely particular acts simply perpetrators n't happen bad guys list \? tim clock ph graduate student uci tel 714 , 8565361 department politics society fax 714 , 8568441 university california irvine home tel 714 , 8563446 irvine , ca 92717 say think first time something posted opposed without making personal insults tim think people answered factual parts \( esp internal conflicts policy \) israel often gets away nations \( due u vetos \) familiar every instance know reason saudi arabia condemned pilgrims pilgrims iranian yes , un biased mostly favor us allies \( including israel , saudi arabia pakistan \) outlaw countries like iran recently iraq far support repressive governments think get slack israel things wrong reason condemnations n't occur lies race country victims gassed iraqi kurds got associated iran war since iran perceived worse iraq condemnation resulted palestinians killed arab countries involved another case cares seems recently one cared many palestinians died anywhere \( including israel occupied territories \) appreciate lack personal insults
dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) subject stretching adriatic sea great wall china organization p center regional studies lines 22 following report turkey eyes regional role ankara , turkey \( ap \) april 27 , 1993 , find last paragraph turanist although premier suleyman demirel criticized ozal 's often turanist calls turkish influence , also spoken turanist turkic peoples stretching adriatic turanist sea great wall china demirel think fooling \? seems ends envisioned pan turkic empire balkans caucasus turkey 's fascist boasts pre empted would suggest turkey let world feel grey wolf teeth , attempt stretch adriatic china ! turkey cried wolf much ! david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org armenia learned lesson p center regional studies anatolia forgotten p box 382761 punishment inflicted 4 14 93 cambridge , 02238 late turkish president turgut ozal
adams bellini berkeley edu \( adam l schwartz \) subject volume nntp posting host bellini berkeley edu organization u c berkeley erl lines 9 article 1993apr28 230749 virginia edu ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) writes p p clear something , n't think jews necessarily worse people generous andi thanks validation adam schwartz
barrak rintintin colorado edu \( mohammed f \) subject egypt call fighting fundamentalists , objects pro bosnian steps keywords international , united nations , government , non usa government , fighting nntp posting host rintintin colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 35 article benali alcor benali alcor concordia ca \( ilyess b bdira \) writes \( upi \) representatives 51 islamic nations considering tuesday request bosnia herzegovina 260 million weapons fight bosnian serbs commitment far 20 million saudi arabia , thanks saudia pocket change compare liberation q8 gave weird causes k least paying damned damned n't ! already donated 100 million bosnia herzegovina sources political committee said delegates agreement need help bosnian muslims , request weapons delayed decision ``it may interpreted violating united embargo supplying arms bosnia , '' warned egyptian foreign minister amer moussa mr amr moussa worried international law tortured death many citizens shot people praying mosque , causing trouble neighbor becasue cia says n't shut , wo n't involved bosnian effort anyway , west represented even islamic conference \? record , egyptian troops one first stationed ca n't remember exact date late last year fact , lost least one man far know barrak
dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) subject accounts anti armenian human right violations azerbaijan 015 summary prelude current events nagorno karabakh organization p center regional studies lines 854 accounts anti armenian human right violations azerbaijan 015 prelude current events nagorno karabakh beat husband , dragged wife outside , stood naked next burning things husband lying feet ground crowd shouted , look naked armenian ! going throw poor woman fire mamma would n't allow went window saw standing , took heated fire stuck body zinaida born 1937 electric booster station daughters gayane \( gaya \) born 1970 orderly sumgait municipal hospital 1 diana born 1978 second year student sumgait secondary school 13 residents building 21 31 , apartment 47 microdistrict 3 sumgait azerbaijan zinaida march 20 arrived yerevan , next day registered us train station took us boarding house conditions wonderful , thanks armenians , received us 's relaxing n't know everyone else feels , 's torture n't place call two bedroom apartment sumgait , children went school lived well , friendship 's painful times , 1988 , soviet period , people break apartment try kill children , 've put efforts whole youth everything going well us older daughter studying institute , middle one preparing enter medical school orderly , youngest sick long time , returned health though lot life 's seven years since lost husband , raised children lots women similar fates , 's nothing done ca n't control remember happened sumgait february 27 , 28 , 29 , horror , 's february 27 relative , ira , came visit us 's better friends oldest daughter , right away asked , 's vika \? say , vika 's trip three days , 's supposed come back tomorrow middle daughter , gaya , baked cake sat talking laughing , drinking tea gaya diana went walk ira home left minutes went suddenly hear noise raced balcony balcony right across bus station , live corner mir streets look see people near bus station 're shouting something 're shouting ca n't understand neighbor standing balcony , ask , , 's happened \? says , n't know , ca n't figure either got scared kids gone outside , wanted run , knock door open door 's kids mamma , says gayane , 'll never believe 's going ! 's awful ! ira says , aunt , 're shouting , ! karabagh ! karabagh ! ' n't know going 're threatening drive armenians slaughter called brother , wife answered phone said , aunt , n't worry , ira staying us , 'll see home later could n't shut eyes night long , even morning worried vika god , going , happened \? ! gayane day , 27th , stood balcony observed happening , although mamma would n't allow us watch n't 50 yards building bus station could see hear everything perfectly stopping buses , dragging people , leading passengers , looking armenians found armenian bus , started n't know call zinaida 's called slaughter gayane mob would descend people beat n't know killing , left , lay still , moving , though nothing left one person lying started dragging police standing right , side , anything , n't take steps calm mob awful stand watch balcony could n't go anywhere , somehow wanted able see everything tell later wanted leave sumgait day kept us idea live soviet union , something would done world government \? ! zinaida could n't leave town , course , older daughter n't home time terrified gaya diana sunday morning went see ira home , neighbor said , , know went 's house smashed everything murdered father two sons neighbor , 's armenian , lives first floor think , god , happening \? ! broad daylight ! saw ira home way back came across mob shouting armenians ! karabagh ! 12 o'clock afternoon way stopped bread store says , beat store manager , thought armenian beat , azerbaijani asked , kill \? says , , 's serious condition left started walk home street , mob started moving direction turned street went little way goes toward store met another crowd , n't bandits , people sumgait frightened walked without knowing going , could n't feel legs ground feet walking boy standing eyes 27th , around evening time ran balcony , mob toward shouting , 's armenian , get ! wore black coat grabbed , boy , near bus stop , saw grabbed legs struck head asphalt made home could n't calm oldest daughter thoughts thinking , daughter 's coming home , 'll stop bus 'll gone 's police , protection , nothing 's like died , 's one , nothing , authorities whatsoever ca n't even find words ! look see arriving going bus station stop near place , across kosmos movie theater stops gang yelling , azerbaijanis running toward yelling , armenians ! see take armenians beat , killing ca n't watch nightmare could n't watch gaya standing watching , says , mamma , see , know 's happening , see eyes tell people later children know gayane saw great deal 27th caught less 20 people eyes ca n't say sure killed zinaida many people , mob big could n't make anything saw boy black coat eyes 18 19 years old gayane think older , probably , 22 tall fellow , big guy , coat walking quickly , shouted armenian , tore running mob went caught right balcony n't know n't think could much left imagine happens crowd attacks one person mob , big , angry , know , similarity way dressed , mostly wearing long black coats could n't even tell apart , wearing black looked alike zinaida picked boy struck asphalt cried mamma ! ran room could n't watch longer awful lot going right , various places , n't boy , several people beaten could n't see , boy cried mamma ! immediately started watching gayane first day went six morning twelve night midnight dispersed police took place scattered districts explain fact morning , already started getting light , around seven o'clock , police gone \? police disappeared yielded positions bandits morning started gathering inter section , bus station entrance downtown morning roads mass transit stops covered , nine o'clock could n't even see ground thousands people crowd began stopping vehicles checking armenians zinaida signals realized noticed made cross arms , crossed arms heads cross , evidently , meant vehicle armenians let azerbaijani cars , stopped armenian ones started pogrom gayane stopped white zhiguli asked driver nationality got said baku nationality \? says armenian immediately start shouting , ermeni , ermeni ! says , 's going \? i'm coming baku n't live sumgait n't matter , cares 're baku sumgait anyway crowd started beating , dragged woman wife , probably car point police came took two led away mob started smashing car , burned flames horrible fire ! everyone ran away , thought car going explode 20 minutes later another car comes along , green ran shouting ermeni ! ermeni ! time n't pull people car , n't beat maybe burned along car , one emerged flames neighbor boy standing balcony , acquaintances walked , asked said , yes , burned along car two hours later whole wedding procession came , doll first car thought armenians , cars started honk loudly azerbaijanis , immediately allowed zinaida driver waved hand say 'get way ' whole crowd parted procession passed freely gayane way , marriage hall , right courtyard building , wedding day azerbaijanis dancing streets grief death , people killed , people celebrating whole time zinaida apartment attacked asked gaya call find tourist bus supposed arrive went girlfriend 's building , lives first entryway , third floor gaya came back said , mamma , bus supposed come around eight , eight imagine feeling , hard vika knew nothing happening coming meet death heard shouting raced window see belongings neighbors second entryway thrown outdoors thrashing pillows lying like snow started cry walking around room , crying , wailing vika 's , come gaya , course , mamma , nothing happen , n't worry , calm , 's good company , 'll look diana saw green car burn car burning went onto balcony gaya pushed away , telling get balcony left came balcony asked armenians zinaida 're right , forgot , 27th diana 's small , area front balcony trees planted mob asked armenians building neighbors said , , armenians n't lot armenians building , n't armenian families , either gayane fell upon apartments 28th terribly many courtyard huge , completely filled zinaida made appearance television earlier said two people , azerbaijanis , killed karabagh said know bees sound , heard buzz \? like buzzing millions bees buzzing flew courtyard , howling shouting n't know describe point afraid watch balcony , looked bedroom window bookstore , armenians live second fourth floors saw things thrown windows realized would upon us minute shouted gayane , gaya , hide gold 's honestly told child grabbed diana n't know ! vika still n't home , already getting dark afraid look time already horrified gayane case , changed television channel moscow station azerbaijani one zinaida turned loud gayane never listened azerbaijani music n't much us years almost never listened sometimes would watch entertainment show film azerbaijani television turned full blast would think azerbaijanis zinaida well imagine , 're slaughtering armenians , robbing , 're listening concert music baku azerbaijani neighbors suggested , knocked door told gaya turn azerbaijani music already anyway turn lights , told us , think 're armenians 're saying armenians afraid turn lights , 're hiding gayane apparently kind arrangement , noticed lights armenian apartments , , azerbaijanis warned , every last one lights turned lights two neighbors came immediately , later , another one turn lights , told us , please nothing happen calm nothing happen zinaida wo n't allow come apartment gayane believed people never done anything bad zinaida whole nightmare , march 15 , left armenia , coming building crying azerbaijanis crying , saying , god \? could raise hands family \? never anyone harm , never refused anyone anything , hard times , time fortune , time mourning could give away \? could sell river \? really given us away protected us , others gave us away sold us river gayane wearing day , began became cautious reason changed clothes azerbaijani women n't wear pants young armenian russian girls sumgait wore pants , azerbaijanis found strange thought better put , otherwise wo n't believe told azerbaijanis nothing else could way forced turn god knows let hair , , threw scarf head zinaida told , mamma , hide take diana go room two look like armenians 'll figure 're armenians right away could go away leave \? ! gayane went onto balcony worked better way armenian family fourth entryway gave us hope ones , neighbors would n't let , azerbaijanis , would fear children looked saw someone crawling balcony , easy get onto balcony would lose keys neighbors would let places would crawl across onto balcony get way turned around saw guy knife balcony looks shouts , nationality \? zinaida time knocking door gayane nationality \? 's shouting well first frightened , got control answered perfect azerbaijani , ashamed , asking question like ca n't see i'm azerbaijani \? armenian would come meet face face look eyes \? looks tells people , yes , azerbaijanis live tell , check , ca n't , armenians asks , nationality \? say , ca n't see \? started could say anything else 're blind , 's sure ! yell want , wo n't make us armenians hear breaking door , mamma went toward door say , n't time deal , 're breaking door 1 go door ask , \? answer , open ! say , wait , breaking door \? 's going \? i'm opening never locked lower lock , broken , locked fear , could n't get open say wait , i'm looking key opened door almost broken already opened door burst say , 's going \? breaking door \? zinaida started climbing balcony 're shouting , n't open door \? say , well 've already come balcony diana sees knives , runs bathroom , closes door gaya cries , mamma , diana ran bathroom ! ran door forgot pretending azerbaijanis , said armenian diana , open door ! gaya tried calm , i'm shouting tears eyes diana open door diana sitting couch doll , little red riding hood guy climbed balcony big knife yellow handle put mamma 's stomach ran bathroom , opened door , slammed behind frightened , started cry shouted , mamma , want kill ! started shouting , give us passports gaya says , need passports , 're azerbaijanis gayane tried convince azerbaijanis , trying everything could , could get knees plead could humble , moment worried lives honest n't care anything else , long little sister would survive , life health cost us dearly ! tell , , n't understand anything \? started shouting , tremendously excited , shouting terribly loud voices , saying stepanakert girls killed , raped , tossed around n't us \? said , 's \? \? armenians ! us \? give knife , 'll cut face calm , tell zinaida told , n't deal ! , karabakh \? nothing happened , one fighting , armenians , us n't give right back \? 've got \? got confused saying azerbaijanis , suddenly started speaking though armenian , n't notice one next , knife breast says others , pretty girls meant gaya 10 year old diana terrified gaya started assuring azerbaijanis one guy stood doorway gave us bad looks gayane demanded passports said , young man , n't passport says , let 's passport , wo n't believe without passport one started searching documents turned wardrobe room upside , took picture wall , started pulling clothes hooks , yelling shouting , passport ! passport ! started yelling , much noise apartment shouting hair stood end suddenly said , listen , papa died , 40 days n't passed yet , muslim household , 're mourning , ashamed , 've honor mamma started cry zinaida started crying husband died , 40 days n't yet passed , n't ashamed ! fact husband died seven years earlier , 1981 're mourning , burst demanding ments documents housing office , i'm filing pension well seemed like believed us one guy said , 're lezgins ca n't see , men , women leave another fellow group agreed , also said lezgins third said , , 're armenians well two convinced , know , rest listened 50 , , three room apartment , even entryway filled started leaving yes , 're lezgins , 're lezgins started leaving , one took tape recorder one first called us lezgins says , leave , \? seemed obey guy gayane tall , wearing jeans coat zinaida little moustache , think gayane , n't moustache , tall brown hair , n't bad looking sort n't anything hands zinaida stood threshold gayane yes , n't look like bad guy , know , face seemed familiar seen somewhere ca n't remember came , would n't able remain indifferent said lezgins leave , started glow inside hope continued argue way said , 're armenians fellow answered , even armenians , 's shameful , father died , 're mourning , 's nothing women house , 's men stay apartment mean , stay \? go ! said , , stay , 're lezgins , 're leaving three protected us zinaida , two one short coat one grey suit , stood threshold , 19 20 years old well young really two defended us diana three , three ! zinaida remember third one , diana \? diana yes , wearing dark clothes gayane third one one came back wore long brown coat diana wore long , brown coat , hair dark left , told downstairs women armenians , ran back said going kill us zinaida left , started calm little , closed door knock told gaya , take diana go room daughters went dining room , opened door guy said , run , hide ! 're coming kill ! ran third floor good neighbors , azerbaijanis sent kids stood alone , knowing far gone whole room could n't even think anything take even forgot take work documents time preparing report send baku , documents home could n't see anything could see vika , older daughter sent gaya diana upstairs , stood asking fellow , close door leave everything like \? says , mean , door \? get , 're coming kill ! standing \? ran children gayane barely time get third floor burst apartment started shouting , armenians \? already neighbors' infant time , neighbor said , n't worry , i'm letting anyone apartment matter zinaida third floor started asking folks , neighbors , go meet vika bus due arrive eight o'clock dissolved tears , gaya soothing , diana next us , crying , i'm already thinking 've lost older daughter , deep heart still believe 's alive tears going mind one could leave building , courtyard packed people , balcony neighbor whose apartment hiding asked bandits , armenians , ones home \? make \? told n't know asked lived answered , ca n't see , third floor asked specially divert attention apartment heard taking free reign apartment , threw color television balcony exploded gayane mamma crying whole time fell faint brought around held back , whole time kept making door go outside , alternately raving , shouting , calling vika n't notice us , probably next thoughts vika neighbors hiding us , offering tea zinaida grateful thanks children alive , well , unharmed throwing belongings burning beds , pillows , chairs neighbor came us said , lucky 's standing naked , woman instead 're part building lost husband , children , thank god 're position , would n't able take n't know would course would n't done anything , trying calm us yard torturing neighbors , fellow armenians lived fifth floor , third entryway married couple , nina , three children last name v hid two daughters , stayed son defend , even got boiling water ready , axe , held long time , beat husband , dragged wife outside , stood naked next burning things husband lying feet ground crowd shouted , look naked armenian ! going throw poor woman fire neighbors came , azerbaijani woman threw scarf , covered , neighbors led apartment neighbors saw heard gayane mamma would n't allow went window saw standing , took heated fire stuck body neighbor , lived entryway nina lives us boarding house saw done , nina showed , knees , almost neck , whole body covered , , wounds zinaida morning , night 29th , rather , one o'clock , two buses approached station wanted run n't care lived died , gayane would n't let go , neighbors said would bring disaster would slain along children gaya crying said forgot , children , could think vika imagined torn pieces , i'm mother , 're children , n't understand would jumped balcony run soldiers help going gayane would n't let mamma , please ! mamma , beg ! neighbors sleeping gayane woke cries held way till morning morning 29th told neighbor going go downstairs apartment , maybe vika lying , murdered told would go gone five minutes , seemed like eternity returned said one , nothing went , stole like mouse , slipped everything thrown n't go soldiers armored personnel carriers far away , farther bus station began looking briefcase work miserable daughter , time work documents , travel papers worked transport division trip sheets gayane mamma responsible person , always ready work around clock job zinaida look around ca n't find briefcase n't care fact everything stolen three rooms , everything smashed , furniture broken , worried later , first concerned lost documents went kitchen daughter hidden valuables gas stove ring five minutes passed gayane ran said , mamma , hurry diana came downstairs gayane found coat among debris , diana found track shoes , coat , dresses diana immediately got back neighbors started throwing things around apartment us threw television onto asphalt , exploded violently sounded like , vika n't , would n't eat , forced , could n't eat loved vika terribly always gone movies gone walks park went apartment next day everything broken , right away started looking dolls books , n't see anything went back upstairs managed take two cups tea service , gaya took vika 's suit one dresses italian boots gone , brown coat , beautiful , n't one beautiful dolls , giant lion gone , one top television large handsome two , one first grade second grade , one yellow green boy girl , 're playing drum violin , dog sitting closing ears , one letters , b , c , , e numbers 4 5 , two girls boy mouths open like singing beautiful gone many books , collected , tables boy given little birthday , n't around either big books , fat ones , disappeared , one left , box adventures , , fairy tales world left books gone zinaida continued searching briefcase , supervisor arrived waited nine o'clock , n't appear , thought something must happened , came 's russian , lomakin alik , mechanic , came saw wrecked apartment , could say thing saw started crying azerbaijani neighbors came crying , others helping pick go looking documents time put things wardrobe remember 's funny painful could thought returned apartment everything gone back normal \? incidentally , later , went back apartment things gone door gone supervisor left , afternoon , neighbor said leave , find another refuge i'm afraid , said , someone saw come apartment , could kill us god , could go daytime n't even know call , bandits , marauders , jackals , n't know call , ca n't find words , everywhere go two girls \? opened door tears eyes , terrified said , go alik 's , 's azerbaijani , say , said earlier , supervisor car , could taken us everyone feared lives could \? went entryway stood says , time would keep year , two right , i'm sorry another door opened , also third floor ask neighbor , tayara , hide place \? 's azerbaijani says , kind question \? come ! hid us many people courtyard , gaya hid wardrobe , put diana mattress , leaving small opening child could breathe tayara said bandits left would let us , came back would hide us sat wardrobe half hour gaya became ill , allowed get legs fell asleep felt like cannons n't eaten drunk anything long , since 27th , saw horror snapped tayara 's husband went outside , even though begged stay , saying man house said 'd courtyard , anything happened wife would signal put passport documents table suddenly came could show azerbaijani family girls went window going ! feared children , someone would recognize street gaya let hair put scarf would resemble azerbaijani , directly across 9 story building , windows right across us , shouted someone would see give us away spot kept looking diana watched zinaida downstairs bandits fighting soldiers soldiers n't shoot , n't orders saw throwing rocks soldiers , young boys , 18 19 year olds , defended i'm mother , different children one soldiers fell head started bleeding stop looking , l could n't watch anymore imagined children shoes gayane troops assumed defense morning buildings , soldiers surrounded bus station , block 36 , microdistrict 3 outside mob fell upon soldiers , started protect , mob courtyard soldiers caught several azerbaijanis started beating clubs one fell cracked open another 's head zinaida show lebanon television , war afghanistan 's like like america , attack demonstrations shields clubs 's courtyard gayane n't compare america , peaceful demonstrations , \? ! zinaida could happen somewhere america ! attacked soldiers , hurled stones thought , 's tear gas americans use demonstrators \? used gas jackals would scattered gayane would scattered soldiers since morning , n't bring fresh troops n't eaten , fine standing three hours , got tired n't even allowed sit noon , soldiers , attacked , tables turned mob went soldiers , guys group center street covered shields , azerbaijanis surrounded threw paving stones guys sat covering shields meanwhile tanks machine guns cruising streets always say , children never seen war never even dreamed , need thought people lived war truly horrible guys tired , exhausted , clubs taken away , others , shields , beaten , covered blood many died ! beat soldiers clubs shields guys stood could n't defend , could n't open fire could n't even defend , let alone us 's zinaida saying \? funny \? gayane , n't mean could something like happen soviet period \? 's painfully embarrassing ! burned armored personnel carriers , someone shouted , get away , 's going blow ! everyone scattered away , armored personnel carrier exploded soldiers lost senses drove personnel carrier bus mob rage fury , drove right sidewalk zinaida bus brought troops driver bus ran three people straight , saw two armored personnel carriers ran four one two minutes bus ran three , one carriers ran two , second , two right street 's dry cleaners appliance watch repair places one armored personnel carriers went way , say ran several , ran seven eyes bus book gayane , flower place new booth drove straight zinaida driver jumped dragged vehicle middle road set fire gayane also saw troops put bunch azerbaijanis bus take convoy baku many arrests zinaida neighbor , one hid us , could n't take , told wife leave running around courtyard looking armenians knew hiding azerbaijanis , saying going check azerbaijani families poor tayara got scared , started cry pleaded , said would remember forever saved children , could go \? gayane n't make us leave , said would anything , afraid zinaida told tayara would stay little longer night would return apartment husband came back said curfew imposed says , , owe us drink announced curfew bagirov first secretary communist party azerbaijan ssr television , said two people killed karabagh , nothing wrong , automobile windows broken , n't killings kept making statements , azerbaijani songs dances tayara turned tv way learned curfew calmed , crowd ran courtyard , large one neighbor told one armenian family , already killed , one left hid wardrobe stuck diana back bed gayane tayara went apartment see happened , found two bandits asked , tayara answered , came take something take want , 're gone zinaida yes , wanted get something us , least said , going , empty handed , naked , three children , nothing remains entire apartment short , calmed , crowd raced building , one across us n't know went gayane curfew effect gangs , many started warned would open fire soldiers n't know city , could n't get oriented , drove main streets , n't go city party committee asked people sumgait go show way zinaida tanks entered city night 29th gayane , mamma , tanks earlier , near city party committee , armenians midnight , march 1 , finally gotten sleep two nights , mamma said , get things together , sent buses us dressed entire time mamma went check came back us zinaida came back children tayara said vika alive well , guys come told hidden safe place believed n't believe ran tanks , roman sasha father , , , killed , mother sasha came asked girls surprised , know girls \? said knew girls neighbor went gaya diana seemed like taking forever went another neighbor came , anna , russian , dear , goodbye good luck diana put us bus captain gave order us taken city party committee bus would n't start , put us another one pouring rain diana imposed curfew many soldiers streets , clubs shields azerbaijanis attacked , many soldiers died threw paving stones huge rocks soldiers saw soldiers ran azerbaijanis tanks soldiers saw azerbaijanis violence people ran rage got scared hid mattress blanket , gaya mamma crawled wardrobe fighting right street near building blowing buses tanks , cars burning , many dead courtyard drove without looking see sidewalk street , drove , ones n't manage get way run tanks left evening , already dark three buses , one soldiers mamma ran said , get clothes , let 's go gaya wearing slippers , blue dress , old one wearing old jacket , old dress , slippers nothing else gaya , , slippers raining hard , street gave mamma old coat wearing short dress put ran got onto bus hungry , one soldiers yerevan gave carried one bus arms gave little glass remained vika 's , gave telephone number gayane bus soldier shield sitting every window ready anything took us city party committee , let us , took us city party committee building armed guard jammed people could n't breathe asked , us \? armenians \? answered yes surprised many armenians sumgait years lived n't know many armenians , 18 , 000 struck , never noticed going downstairs next day ran secretary komsomol vika 's plant , said vika alive well told mamma course calmed know , hard believe anything , faith everything gone n't believe completely zinaida n't believe heard kinds things arrived city party committee heard everything imaginable ! fear god saw many acquaintances , kissing asking children homes many people already knew pogrom apartment seen broken windows cried , saying n't know vika one woman said taken two daughters could n't find one slashed second said husband son murdered lived building 6 microdistrict killed husband , , son heard many things like already starting lose touch patience run dry waiting daughter later azerbaijani fellow came said , aunt , vika sent , 's alive well hidden safe place want 'll call speak went downstairs first floor called vika spoke , heard voice child managed survive hell started begging azerbaijani bring city party committee tried talk 'll bring wherever go , n't worry , 've looked better brother sister asked get brought calmed second day meeting member central committee communist party ussr , people started shouting one shouted , give son back ! , another yelled , daughter \? ! , third wanted husband bagirov , stood blinking , saying anything gayane asked wanted go , everyone shouted , russia ! honest frightened armenia , wild rumors though terrible dream , one wanted go armenia said could n't evacuate 18 , 000 people russia would meet everyone individually next day speak also said today going go look apartments march 3 went military barracks village taken care military sent special flights children right , yerevan , moscow one woman left moscow letter zinaida worst truly behind us everything passed , pain remain whole lives cannot forgotten circumstances , children , grandchildren forget answer died \? mothers , sisters , brother , sons daughters \? bear responsibility \? wash away blood \? someone made answer , severely , effect people us pleased n't yet , live , armenia , protected , issue n't resolved would like stay armenia , homeland , armenian people united invincible armenians wo n't scattered throughout soviet union , world , 're together wo n't happen mother three children , woman , sister , ask armenians united happened sumgait never happen homeland request helped obtaining apartment getting jobs children work good armenia n't able , let children 's possible , 'll work good armenia land forefathers grandfathers great grandfathers lived , later people dispersed like mother , land bore us wife , protect us , want one thing people never see children saw , children , armenia , never see anything like may 28 , 1988 yerevan reference 1 sumgait tragedy pogroms armenians soviet azerbaijan , volume , eyewitness accounts , edited samuel shahmuradian , forward yelena bonner , 1990 , published aristide caratzas , ny , pages 187 203 david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org armenia learned lesson p center regional studies anatolia forgotten p box 382761 punishment inflicted 4 14 93 cambridge , 02238 late turkish president turgut ozal
dzk cs brown edu \( danny keren \) subject benjamin franklin \( iii \) organization brown university department computer science lines 19 nntp posting host cs brown edu , mr salah still claiming stalin jew \? thread began sca , another guy claimed stalin lenin jews posted evidence books showing christians , someone made \( correct \) remark lenin 's maternal grandfather jew converted christianity counter fact stalin christian , youth , trained priest , mr salah wrote yes , says trained priest , religion ! \( btw , stalin developed strong antisemitic feelings later life \) mr salah seems intent trying spread hate jews posting antisemitic forgeries trying prove certain notorious people jews , even danny keren
ellis uchicago edu \( naomi \) subject banned game \? reply midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 79 article network ucsd edu weber ucsd edu \( william \) writes article 1993may1 midway uchicago edu thf2 midway uchicago edu writes , 's example things nowhere near bad characterize united states police kill many blacks israel kills palestinians , even though us black population , admittedly larger , n't engaged civil war attempt destroy government probably newgroup mr frank wrong use words like civil war destroy government discussing conflict occupied territories \( newsgroup followups set talk politics mideast belongs \) may make term war' dubious , nothing phrase government' occupying government still govern ment , palestinians made quite clear goal simply prevent occupying territories n't con fer citizenship \( determination distinction \) wipe entirely \( , incidentally , entire jewish population rules \) intent government' , matter government happens current government isreal would willing let adult individuals capable vote elections within boundaries state , requirement called democracy opinion , n't requirement democracy athens matter , n't requirement term democracy united states , n't let non citizens vote either united states israel processes whereby possible acquire citizenship , great deal effort modicum screening 's n't automatic living territories n't automatic living new york , either said , suit never considered democracy ultimate good world , could care less feel like calling israel , america , anywhere else , democracy personally , withhold term israel reason withhold britain parliamentary system serious mr frank would correct current government neither willing vast majority individuals territories allow people right self determination civil war government , rather foreign occupier , suit case israel attacking people , fighting war foreign soil , case residents entitled play rough , yes israel 's allowed get rough , within bare limits rules war includes , among things , right shoot bomb anyone national try question fighting \( permits mass frontal assault rock throwers \) , along right take installation military importance \( certain villages good handled aerial bombing , since count supply lines enemy \) , right anything whatsoever whatever constitutes government lay hands \( hamas trying set ruling party , let beware \) scenario want , recommend go back calling civil war civil wars handled nicer cannot say palestinians nation fighting resistance war foreign nation still call israel government treating people cruelly palestinians fighting war foreign country , israel , gloves come naomi yes , bread may source peace fight , fight naomi heavens bring peace roses midway uchicago edu us , israel
unix amherst edu \( joshua aaron klein \) subject muslims accepting sheep status organization amherst college lines 14 nntp posting host amhux3 amherst edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl7 ilyess b bdira \( benali alcor concordia ca \) wrote side coin , give instance muslims killed non muslims , raped families , burned houses , sake strong majority course hmmm genocide conducted ottoman empire armenians living turkey joshua klein internet addresses amherst college unix amherst edu amherst , amherst edu
tankut iastate edu \( sabri atan \) subject stretching adriatic sea great wall china reply tankut iastate edu \( sabri atan \) organization iowa state university lines 33 article 1993apr29 urartu sdpa org , dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) writes following report turkey eyes regional role ankara , turkey \( ap \) april 27 , 1993 , find last paragraph turanist although premier suleyman demirel criticized ozal 's often turanist calls turkish influence , also spoken turanist turkic peoples stretching adriatic turanist sea great wall china demirel think fooling \? seems ends envisioned pan turkic empire balkans caucasus turkey 's fascist boasts pre empted would suggest turkey let world feel grey wolf teeth , attempt stretch adriatic china ! turkey cried wolf much ! mentioning turkic people wide spread means desiring turkish empire \? logical thing conclude statement like \? says turkey may economical benefits competitive enough course freedom extrapolating wish statement one question context ozal use words quoting \? give whole speech tankut atan tankut iastate edu achtung , baby !
rj3s virginia edu \( get thee nunnery \) subject volume organization university virginia lines 3 face mr beyer , 're us israeli intellectuals attempts defend deceitful , undeserving palestinians prove fruitless !
rj3s virginia edu \( get thee nunnery \) subject civility organization university virginia lines 1 shut andi !
shaig think com \( shai guday \) subject israel apartheid state organization thinking machines corporation , cambridge , usa lines 302 nntp posting host composer think com article igc apc org center policy research cpr igc apc org writes elias davidsson april 1991 \( revision oct 1991 \) note already posting facts , outdated biased presentation facts , well conclusions reach leave little hope engaging exchange might lead meeting minds read open mind , address international convention elimination forms racial discrimination adopted general assembly united nations 1965 , ratified member states article 1 convention defines term racial discrimination distinction , exclusion , restriction preference based race , colour , descent , national ethnic origin purpose effect recognition , enjoyment exercise , equal footing , human rights fundamental freedoms political , economic , social , cultural field public life ideals embodied text worthy goals , text currently stands know country racial discrimination sort found makes mention need legislative violation general assembly endorsed 1975 resolution defining zionism form racism racial discrimination important , correct legitimate resolution incomplete since include operative statements designed end israeli racial discrimination meanwhile united states , behalf israel , exerting heavy pressure member states united nations repeal resolution give israeli racial practices zionism moral legitimacy , principle , advocating un intervention via operative statements case , must therefore hold applied case council perceives form racial discrimination previously exhibited thought definition israel state belonging jews world \( inhabitants \) , native non jews born country actually , know quite native non jews born israel alienated law said , would probably correct , however tendency exagerate slant facts becomes apparent slant text practically non jews living originate areas israeli control , identify palestinians muslim , many christian jews , including author lines , also identify palestinians statement true practically beduins , , , fringe groups identification matter bearing upon issue could equally identify insert group zionism took europe end last century 's aim create jewish state palestine spite adamant opposition palestinian arabs \( 95 population \) recall correctly , time zionism took , adamant opposition palestine open factual contradictory evidence zionists powerful , militarily , economically technologically , succeeded 1948 conquering 70 area mandatory palestine driving exile native arabs conquered areas , approximately 750 , 000 people , razing villages ground , zionists could finally establish predominantly jewish state 150 , 000 non jews remained israeli territory therefore contend 400 villages mention villages \? jewish state established , began laws help confiscation land native non jews , political repression doubt laws passed provided framework later used purposes however , seem imply intention priori , implies policy agenda knowledge case also neglect mention circumstances surrounded , 1967 state israel invaded egypt syria occupied rest palestine \( west bank gaza strip \) thus another 1 5 million palestinians fell occupation palestinian arab territories considered illegal international community , reflected security council resolutions israel rejected u n resolutions began without delay occupation rule territories aim annexing appropriate time quite accurate israel rejected resolutions , though conflicting understanding regards israel never annexed sinai , west bank , gaza brought partly due un resolutions part , east jerusalem golan heights , already forcefully annexed israel , defiance international law un resolutions curiousity , provided granted citizenship , int'l law claim prohibits annexation territories captured war \? ever applied country previously \( iraq \) \? must emphasized , although people live different regimes , united self perception palestinians , people identifying palestine , territorial entity \( ethnic religious entity \) incorrect ! palestinians claim discriminated ethnic racial basis therefore statement incorrect also note given previous definition racial discrimination , means could argue however , nation existed definitely exist time creation israel , case argue racial discrimination period ! furthermore palestinians generally consider plo symbol national identity authority represents world affairs , , n't non jewish population living palestinian arab territories occupied israel 1967 suffers blatant discrimination subject brutal military occupation another generalization , , n't seem care anyone palestinian people , whose cause espouse licence , start business buy industrial equipment , right educate children , basic rights subject arbitrary rulings military authorities cannot challenged court incorrect ability appeal furthermore , although may agree , military rulings senseless arbitrary , due whims military much sizeof task organization jewish inhabitants occupied territories permitted carry firearms incorrect know two arab policemen lived course , outbreak intifada forced locals resign , bitterly jewish settlers right 6 7 water per person non jews jewish residents territories number 100 , 000 people israel policy increase number substantially , total defiance international law , un resolutions population state israel systematically land non jewish inhabitants territories jewish settlement longer true , ca n't help wonder purpose posting 800 , 000 people israel proper , jews consider palestinians israeli citizenship many years establishment israel subjected harsh military control much land confiscated state handed jewish organisations exclusive jewish settlement subject massacres , humiliation enjoy , jewish israelis , right vote , discriminated law practice , hell minorities n't fit , right \? many villages suffer way seem indicate , abu gosh comes mind yes , result actions \? approximately 92 surface state israel within lines purposes closed palestinians second class citizens israel may neither legally live land , rent cultivate direct effect policies native non jewish citizens israel denied residence membership rights rural communities israel , including collective settlements , kibbutzim non jews discriminated many ways government local authorities palestinian villages funds jewish city councils force palestinians live jewish families receive higher child non jewish neighbors , palestinian schools suffer \( compared jewish schools \) palestinian children denied right learn history literature israelis struggle equal rights end racial discrimination , suffer continuous harassment authorities 1 kibbutzim arab non jewish members members kibbutz legislation , purely non jewish collective 2 funds result political lobbying bearing mind non jews compose 20 voting population , never failed amaze fail form one large bloc , increase power recent elections case point 3 please provide factual evidence supporting allegation regard educational material obviously never seen curriculum school west bank based upon jordan 's school system 4 regard last statement , simply another gross generalization state israel refuses acknowledge state inhabitants although israeli cabinet never openly endorsed idea \( forced removal country native palestinian population , , ultimate \) , israeli government policies towards non jews bear mark attempt made zionist authorities integrate palestinian arabs israeli public life thus , although comprising approximately 17 population israeli citizens , palestinian citizen israel ever served cabinet member , director ministry national institution , judge supreme court , ambassador israel , leading position israeli economic financial life even director ministry arab affairs yes , thing exists ! jew another generalization , lets stop transfer idea espoused one party last gov't , intended solution problem territories , country regard items , recall least one arab ambassador , rest covered previously although sexual relations jews non jews legal , considered israeli zionist society somewhat betrayal jewish zionist ethics israeli educational system attitude systematic way last time israel \? simply true , quite time question religious intervention best answered proportional representation lack arab party bloc counter orthodox one zionism rejects idea modern secular state , based equality citizens one main reason israel produced written constitution simply incorrect answer political , failure understand dynamics movements inside israeli gov't , contentions zionism state jews privileged rights thus , according israeli law , jew born london , never visited israel , speak hebrew atheism , granted automatic israeli citizenship , native palestinian inhabitants happen christian muslim , treated almost aliens racial discrimination , defined international law , thus reflected israeli laws policies , grounded nature israel jewish state discrimination based upon race oops , sorry , nasty habit malicious false truths proposal israeli arab israeli palestinian peace address issue racial discrimination israel zionist nature state israel thus doomed fail real world intrusion proposal doomed fail course , would n't expect understand , wrapped view things let 's let anything penetrate shall ! \? ! may bit sarcastic limit amount patience rubbish 02 00 shai guday stealth bombers , os software engineer thinking machines corp winged ninja skies cambridge ,
tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) subject israeli media \( israeli terrorism \) nntp posting host orion oac uci edu organization university california , irvine lines 19 article bony1 bony com jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) writes article 1993apr26 ncsu edu hernlem chess ncsu edu \( brad hernlem \) writes jake call doctor brad ali hernlem \( last wednesday \) congratulations field \? jake livni jake bony1 bony com ten years , george bush american occupied new york replaced jimmy carter opinions employer opinions standard failed president add congratulations well survive gauntlet , cheers tim clock ph graduate student uci tel 714 , 8565361 department politics society fax 714 , 8568441 university california irvine home tel 714 , 8563446 irvine , ca 92717
tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) subject egypt call fighting fundamentalists , objects pro bosnian steps nntp posting host orion oac uci edu organization university california , irvine keywords international , united nations , government , non usa government , fighting lines 14 article 1993apr29 ucsu colorado edu barrak rintintin colorado edu \( mohammed f \) writes article benali alcor benali alcor concordia ca \( ilyess b bdira \) writes \( upi \) representatives 51 islamic nations considering tuesday request bosnia herzegovina 260 million weapons fight bosnian serbs right ! let 's hope get rear ends something un clearly content sit tim clock ph graduate student uci tel 714 , 8565361 department politics society fax 714 , 8568441 university california irvine home tel 714 , 8563446 irvine , ca 92717
hamid mcrcim mcgill edu \( hamid reza mohammadi daniali \) subject happy birthday israel ! originator hamid dali mcrcim mcgill edu nntp posting host dali mcrcim mcgill edu organization mcgill research centre intelligent machines lines 44 article bony1 bony com , jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) writes article 1993apr27 011549 7010 thunder mcrcim mcgill edu hamid mcrcim mcgill edu \( hamid reza mohammadi daniali \) writes article news cso uiuc edu , eshneken ux4 cso uiuc edu \( edward shnekendorf \) writes israel happy 45th birthday ! anybody information number people killed israel 44 happy year \? hamid 's \? another idiot mcrcim mcgill edu \? dope using different accounts \? asked simple questions different n't understand people insulted simple questions ! anyway , n't reply language wo n't , 1 need 2 benefit 3 n't time reply way , want know \? nationalist arab 1967 arab 70 's sure want hear name \? muslim fighter child fight armed soldier stone ! guy wants bring justice palestine , fighter wants kicked israel south way 1982 son khomeini honored n't know ! ! ! \? ask rabin knows ! hamid jake livni jake bony1 bony com ten years , george bush american occupied new york replaced jimmy carter opinions employer opinions standard failed president
eggertj moses atc mit edu \( jim eggert x6127 g41 \) subject israel 's expansion ii reply jake bony1 bony com 's message tue , 27 apr 1993 20 48 23 gmt lines 34 reply eggertj atc mit edu organization mit lincoln lab group 41 bony1 bony com article bony1 bony com jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) writes difference guerrilla warfare terrorism former primarily targets enemy soldiers latter primarily targets civilians , necessarily enemy , comparison , palestinean fighters primarily target tourists , , babies , worshippers , shoppers , movie threatening people early zionist fighters things historically incorrect early zionist indeed target civilians made random attacks arab , killing innocent passers assertion opposite attempt whitewash history anyone read history zionist terrorists good book start one j bell , expert international terrorism \( main interest irish terrorism \) author bell , j , 1931 title terror zion irgun , lehi , palestine underground , 1929 1949 j bell pub info new york st martin 's press , description xi , 374 p , 14 leaves plates ill , maps 24 cm subjects s1 yisrael s2 irgun s3 israel arab war , 1948 1949 s4 jewish arab relations 1917 1949 lc 7 1977 completeness , arab period also rampant , targeted chiefly jewish civilians anyone tell opposite live let live \? jim eggertj atc mit edu \( jim eggert \)
steven surya cs ucla edu \( steven berson \) subject freedom u nntp posting host surya cs ucla edu organization ucla , computer science department lines 15 hm cs brown edu \( harry mamaysky \) writes mr mamaysky 's proposal forbid action serves promote morally incorrect action omitted brevity prefer freedom granted first amendment us constitution arbitrary definition universal morality steve p elaborate e mail n't clear p p i'm sorry misspelling name steven berson ucla computer science department \( 310 \) 825 3189 steven cs ucla edu los angeles , ca 90024 1596
rj3s virginia edu \( get thee nunnery \) subject deir yassin organization university virginia lines 55 hm cs brown edu writes article 1993apr26 virginia edu rj3s virginia edu \( get thee nunnery \) writes bullshit deir yassin unprovoked attack part jews , massacre defines best opinion village deir yassin pact jews , peace pact , irgun purposely broke agreement order scare palestinians might grant village housed armed arabs doubt nothing archives available literature indicates motivating force amongst irgun deir yassin massacre part strategy intimidate palestinians flee jewish homeland , contrary belief , many civilians killed deir yassin later advertized jews perpetrated useful getting many palestinians leave palestinians rightfully scared , want another deir yassin i'm necessarily condemning israelites atrocities committed part arabs israelophiles careful thinking good guys middle east arab jew suck equally rj3s , say evidence motivated irgun attack dir yassin strategic importance fact , begin , charge irgun , wrote dir yassin attacked military significance dir yassin merely battle war liberation people died thing never intended tragedy war crime irgun harry agree harry , however must also concede arab terrorism also tragedy war remember palestinians effective target civilians order cause irgun attack civilian targets terrorize order might obtain objective , i'm sure would done also n't exclude irgun 's action british soldiers terrorism british showing signs favoring compromise regards palestine , irgun branch groups made point kill young british mothers fathers back britain would get angry continued presence palestine sounds like form terrorism , much removed arab terrorism must also forget irgun , irgun branch groups likely killed many jews zionist , british 'll reiterate sides screwy , 'll favor underdog case think bit screwed
oaf zurich ai mit edu \( oded feingold \) subject uva organization artificial intelligence lab lines 5 reply oaf zurich ai mit edu nntp posting host klosters ai mit edu reply ab4z virginia edu 's message tue , 27 apr 1993 20 42 04 gmt things university fun may admit partying go consistently ranked one playboy 's top party schools knew andi beyer fraternity
tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) subject final solution gaza \? nntp posting host orion oac uci edu organization university california , irvine lines 58 article igc apc org center policy research cpr igc apc org writes basically three alternatives gaza gaza \? purposely separating west bank \? , separate people territories \? , addressing gaza \? 1 throw jews sea basically make leave middle east go back came \( russia , europe , usa , etc \) means , continue list etc reason particularly bring many middle eastern west asian countries fact adds important element consideration resolution arab israel conflict 2 throw gazans sea , accordance yitzhak rabin 's wish many zionists explained sea meant regard israelis jews , please case 3 israelis palestinians come honorable fair \( n't attempt say \) settlement , \? better ask would mean north american tribes would returned lands , pre islamic tribes would take back lands islamic invaders , get kick uk , central south american tribes get kick spanish descendents thier lands , returned land last possessed , find stole point , every culture stole land previous occupants would allow person live dignity country freedom equality wait ! refer palestinians , happened gaza \? opt third alternative folks \? know , people would choose third alternative , since done past , perhaps would initiate things presenting vision resolution , however , worries \( , worries \) resonable expectations parties considered elias tim clock ph graduate student uci tel 714 , 8565361 department politics society fax 714 , 8568441 university california irvine home tel 714 , 8563446 irvine , ca 92717
tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) subject uva organization university california , irvine lines 26 nntp posting host orion oac uci edu article 1993apr28 717 vms huji ac il backon vms huji ac il writes article 1993apr27 virginia edu , ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) writes things university fun may admit partying go consistently ranked one playboy 's top party schools study importantly learn lot overall uva drug use actually lower average college u thomas jefferson sole author virginia statute religious freedom \( basis first ten amendments \) , though given full credit righting bill rights someone picked right andi b medical school \? like fellow austrian dr mengele \? \? josh oh come , josh ! tim clock ph graduate student uci tel 714 , 8565361 department politics society fax 714 , 8568441 university california irvine home tel 714 , 8563446 irvine , ca 92717
tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) subject freedom u nntp posting host orion oac uci edu organization university california , irvine lines 28 article 1993apr28 418 cs ucla edu steven surya cs ucla edu \( steven berson \) writes hm cs brown edu \( harry mamaysky \) writes mr mamaysky 's proposal forbid action serves promote morally incorrect action omitted brevity prefer freedom granted first amendment us constitution arbitrary definition universal morality society impossible without shared set , sense god bad action basic foundation something universal steve p elaborate e mail n't clear p p i'm sorry misspelling name steven berson ucla computer science department \( 310 \) 825 3189 steven cs ucla edu los angeles , ca 90024 1596 tim clock ph graduate student uci tel 714 , 8565361 department politics society fax 714 , 8568441 university california irvine home tel 714 , 8563446 irvine , ca 92717
jaskew spam maths adelaide edu au \( joseph askew \) subject deir yassin organization statistics , pure applied mathematics , university adelaide lines 81 article hm angell cs brown edu hm cs brown edu \( harry mamaysky \) writes article ere umontreal ca aurag ere umontreal ca \( aurag hassan \) writes replying n't seen anyone else yet seems rather odd really really wierd posters left n't fascists arab extremists arab civilians die dir yassin massacre yes clearly admitted troops carried stupidly deposited testimony archives effect first , village housed many armed troops source \? noone claiming anymore except would like name one credible historian asserts \? believe even begin decency claim secondly , irgun stern fighters absolutely intentions killing civilians yes said said went intention killing men women got way archives remember , hostile testimony village attacked military significance fact , warning given occupants village leave attack begin sound van ditch warning given rational standards , dir yassin massacre killing unintentional yes massacre murder hundreds unarmed civilians part fighting surviving men taken local shot back head intentional \? yeah right village housed arab snipers arab troops source slander course \? thus attacked military significance attacked intentions killing civilians men involved said clearly intention kill men premeditated mass murder nothing else even compare dir yassin , 120 arabs died , holocaust absurd agree least irgun want kill civilians village almost 1000 inhabitants , survived yes want kill inhabitants many killed course simple resolve , haganah sent soldier report massacre brought photographer sent report israeli government suppressed government labour government since revisionists gotten power reason likud n't release report pictures either perhaps might want tell \? happened claim pictures men shot head hands tied behind backs , women children shot slept yet reason take chance clear name reason n't \? somehow doubt facts exactly people responsible claim premeditated mass murder nothing else iraqi soldiers , fighting ethnic cleansing work joseph askew joseph askew , gauche proud autumn stillness , see pleiades , jaskew spam maths adelaide edu remote thorny deserts , fell grief disclaimer \? sue , see care north tents , sky must end somwhere , actually , rather like brenda beyond pale , river murmurs
jaskew spam maths adelaide edu au \( joseph askew \) subject dir yassin organization statistics , pure applied mathematics , university adelaide lines 156 article hm angell cs brown edu hm cs brown edu \( harry mamaysky \) writes myths facts , leonard j davis , near east research inc , 1989 great , someone posting elders next unlike plo 's almost exclusive focus civilian targets , time plo exist would next 20 years knew n't \? perhaps might want add jewish civilians killed 48 war 'll opt massacre deir yassin think greater \? 1983 , however , eric silver guardian \( britain \) interviewed survivor , sammour , testified 116 population 800 1000 killed talking man included testimony harry naturally use myths facts wonder doubt lying right harry \? reason mainly economic capture order maintain bases established poor resources main idea , despite , remained conquest village force arms , something unknown country , became turning point jewish military operations yehuda , archives testimony apart military discussion , lehi put forward proposal date residents village conquest , order show arabs happens lehi set together operation , another main reason would cause great uproar throughout land would important turning point course battles clear aim break arab morale raise somewhat morale jewish jerusalem , hit hard time time , especially jewish bodies fell arab hands yehuda , archives testimony quoted yisrael segal deir yassin file , published 19th january 1983 n't like holocaust like warning , punishment collective inflicted unarmed innocents comes prisoners , old people children , differences opinion , majority men village force opposed us , whether old people , women children cohen commander attack deir yassin , \( j \) let put words premeditated b murder say eyewitness testimony man command \? prisoners retreat decided also wounded , anyway could give first aid one place eighty arab prisoners killed opened fire killed one people came give first aid arabs dressed arab women also found , started shoot women also hurry area prisoners concentrated \( j \) shooting prisoners , wounded , warning hurry \? sounds familiar , \? heard people places things \? one case family one twenty five survived another house caught sixteen year old son mother holding killed knife mother spent twenty years mental hospital young woman two year old baby shot street bodies left moved centre village started kill everybody saw heard , soon anybody opened door using bombs grenades , machine guns , guns cousin escaped bullet holes clothes one officers put machinegun window started shooting , killing everybody moved killed uncle , ali hassan , aunt fatima heard call me' ran killed another neighbour , heard voices came killed son muhammad , , heard father call went place killed mother heard son cry help ran killed near house saw muhammad sammour funny see fit include reliable enough report casualties actual events \? say harry \? exchange followed four men killed dozen wounded noon time battle shooting ceased although calm , village yet surrendered irgun lehi men came hiding began houses shot whoever saw , women children included , commanders try stop massacre pleaded commander order men cease fire , avail meantime twenty five arabs loaded truck driven yehuda end drive , taken deir yassin , murdered cold blood meir pa'il , interview 4 4 1972 joseph askew , gauche proud autumn stillness , see pleiades , jaskew spam maths adelaide edu remote thorny deserts , fell grief disclaimer \? sue , see care north tents , sky must end somwhere , actually , rather like brenda beyond pale , river murmurs
jar2e faraday clas virginia edu \( virginia 's gentleman \) subject uva organization university virginia lines 9 pete uncalled i'm sure andi beyer whatever name product environment came school , enjoying mantle university make viewpoint seem legitimate \( well reasoned \) i'm virginia , , think uva poor taste , even beyer slip jesse
eyad unify com \( eyad \) subject rejoinder questions israelis organization usr lib news organization lines 69 article usenet ins cwru edu bc744 cleveland freenet edu \( mark ira kaufman \) writes although realize principle one strongest points , would still like know ask question sort arab countries kaufman , think problem newsgroup every time somebody puts serious questions israel , first response would arab countries \? arab countries governments ruling people iron fist policy dark ages democracy \( exists \) ironically , countries west would like deal would wage massive wars protect resources israel situation different , israel claims democracy would call selective democracy , western democratic standards israel saying compared western standards comparison advertized propaganda israel , look seriously question asked regarding country standard want continue think tank charade , fixation israel must stop might start asking sort questions arab countries well realize would work , arab treatment jews last several decades bad fixation israel would begin look like biased attack incorrect , see brain washed well , would recommend non zionist history books \) everyone group recognizes stupid 'center policy research' nothing fancy name bigot hates israel please , speak imagine everyone beliefs , would lucky believe n't try honest hatred israel \? heard family lived israel , members family could cut competition true family \? true \? actually israel , really personal vendetta \? , trying destroy credibility author , \? asked serious question tactics destroying credibility person beacuse agree old work anymore , go tell \( aipac \? \) change guide books salam , eyad software engineer unify corp disclaimer personal views , employer eyad unify corp software engineer drive email eyad unify com sacramento , ca 1922
eshneken ux4 cso uiuc edu \( edward shnekendorf \) subject volume organization university illinois urbana lines 58 ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) writes think guys think volume responses harshness somehow increases factual accuracy especially deplore attempts call racist \( many done \) guys think unreasonable israelis channel denominations combined \( including reasonable israelis \) somehow makes right well 're wrong started reading stuff last sunday thought might butt since severe information problem part people thought somewhat intelligent conversation might enlighten would nice , considering professional diplomats israel arabs unable 45 years , ca n't see us starting hey soon anyone wants discuss things reasonably scholarly manner , count anyway responses mostly negative 've called racist anti semite many times seems assumed people 's postings shared friends appears similar experiences overall harsh language coupled occasional death threats attempts get disconnected convinced many look elsewhere true discussions unsubscribe newsgroup people strong opinions need careful regarding say say , make factual able back n't know 're paid israeli lobbyists concerned , seems harsh rhetoric might helpful cause name calling , attempting disconnect death threats tip things work civilized world thanks teaching us civilized world , andi guess came either desert ghetto , right \? , paid israeli lobbyists zog people believe cause find offense people imply sort dirty dealing due love israel \( disguised paid israeli lobbyists kind image \? \) p understand involved many contributing atmosphere p p clear something , n't think jews necessarily worse people whole distinction cultures shall made \( n't personally believe judging people religion , culture race \) oh ! thank ! needed approval heritage guess go home feel good sleep knowing jews really n't worse people anyone else , contrary know true ed
tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) subject peace talks resume nntp posting host orion oac uci edu organization university california , irvine lines 63 article 392 jcpltyo jcpl co jp ohayon jcpltyo jcpl co jp \( \) writes article news service uci edu tim clock writes tc , , agree \( sort \) peace process needed \? tc particular points mentioned article \? tc israel \( supposedly \) going propose good \? go far \? tc far enough \? tc n't agree peace process needed , \? personally think peace process needed , since negotiations future generations able live stability unfortunately think like , cases like anas omran , hamza , jle , mohammed reza , abu abed , anwar mohammed others think jihad solution ca n't avoid throwing gut reactions see extremist views newsgroup , 're certainly going better real world hey , easy reading offending post , step back , take deep breathing exercises , gallon ice cream \( sex , whichever \) , reply something usual king hill mentality view israel made gestures towards arab foes opposite given us proposed \? palestinians proposed \? palestinians would revoke rewrite charter , condemn acts palestinian violence would good start perhaps , starting immediate accusation particularly good way generate open responses \? explaining see israel 's real worries need addressed \? since side sees israel 's gestures completely different light , perhaps also real worries point view , \? worries addressed \? palestinians gain negotiations seems though strong enough make decisions plagued internal strife , getting anywhere fundamentalism slowly taking territories , late discuss issues palestinians since vow destruction israel certainly much harder reach compromise \( , even sit talk \) side several different ideologies , set demands generate unity side , anything israel \( without sacrificing security , position \) encourage along lines israel prefers \? arabs must take example egypt egypt came bargaining table , got wanted israel peace cooperation two countries tougher play ball israel tougher israel gets tsiel tim clock ph graduate student uci tel 714 , 8565361 department politics society fax 714 , 8568441 university california irvine home tel 714 , 8563446 irvine , ca 92717
eshneken ux4 cso uiuc edu \( edward shnekendorf \) subject israel apartheid state organization university illinois urbana lines 10 center policy research cpr igc apc org writes anti israel rantings deleted father says russian , pol , roughly translated half jew anti semite half , mr davidsson , know means ed
eshneken ux4 cso uiuc edu \( edward shnekendorf \) subject israel apartheid state organization university illinois urbana lines 32 center policy research cpr igc apc org writes 2 sabri arabs israel , monthly review press , new york , 1976 3 ed w zionism , imperialism racism , helm , london , 1979 \( writings arab , english american scholars \) 4 responsibility state israel according international commitments arab studies quarterly , spring summer 1985 , p 27 41 5 ilan zionism today arab studies quarterly , spring summer 1985 , p 3 10 6 jewish nationality status basis institutionalized racism israel international organisation elimination forms racial discrimination \( \) , washington , 1985 7 dr w v zionist organization jewish agency international us law , judaism zionism difference middle east zed books ltd , london 1986 8 john quigley palestine israel challenge justice duke university press , durham , n c , 1991 9 dr uri davis zionist society consequences internal opposition necessity external intervention judaism zionism difference middle east zed books ltd , london 1986 think one needs scan mr davidsson 's bibliography see kind objective sources uses ed
eshneken ux4 cso uiuc edu \( edward shnekendorf \) subject deir yassin organization university illinois urbana lines 67 rj3s virginia edu \( get thee nunnery \) writes first , harry , uninformed irgun 's terrorist activities 'll give quotes book charles smith palestine arab israeli conflict 1988 , 1992 ah palestine arab israeli conflict sounds interesting begin directed irgun bomb civilian 's right , civilian installations linked mandatory authority , military sites misleading supposed charles smith characterizes bombing king david hotel civilian installation installation attacked linked sort official function mandatory government course , lehi splinter group , included notable israelis shamir lehi fighters freedom israel resumed assassinations british officials , civilian , military kind civilians \? assume charles smith means completely innocent people intentionally targeted , right \? please provide examples course , dair yassin , 250 men , woman children killed , perhaps i'm sure strategic reasons , yet ever happened non aggression pact \? references 'd like seems like blatant scare tactics begin admits useful scaring palestinian arabs references ! revolt \( los angeles 1972 \) nice strawman revolt begin state myth massacre deir yassin may effect scaring arabs fleeing however , nowhere claim result specific policy thus , happen , intended think arab calls palestinians leave fear war started arab hands greater arab deir yassin fact jewish terrorist groups managed scare 300 , 000 arabs may 15 1948 really nice use caps like effective actually , according many sources , including american diplomatic officials , greatest arabs leave villages came arab leaders certainly might matter semantics however might say war like said , know palestinian conflict n't war \? israel never got state , 's activities would lost history , categorized sure could identified cause state take seriously harry sincerely think palestinians discriminated case , perhaps , everyone thinks cause bogus anyway stuff ponder ed
tippu snrc uow edu au \( tippu hassan \) subject dir yassin organization snrc , university wollongong lines 51 distribution world reply tippu snrc uow edu au nntp posting host sheep snrc uow edu au article angell cs brown edu , hm cs brown edu \( harry mamaysky \) writes myths facts , leonard j davis , near east research inc , 1989 pp 108 109 unlike plo 's almost exclusive focus civilian targets , 100 troups irgun stern group struck deir yassin april 10 , 1948 , targeted village military importance deir yassin road jerusalem , arabs blockaded , housed iraqi troups palestinian irregulars snipers based deir yassin constant threat jewish citizens jerusalem arab civilians killed deir yassin , attack conform propaganda picture arabs tried paint number arabs killed generally reported 250 1983 , however , eric silver guardian \( britain \) interviewed survivor , sammour , testified 116 population 800 1000 killed three days massacre , ' sammour explained , five clans deir yassin met moslem offices jerusalem made list people found \( alive \) went names nothing happend since 1948 make think figure wrong ' unlike plo 's deliberate attacks civilians , killing civilians deir yassin premeditated attackers left open escape corridor village 200 residents left unharmed remind bosnia ethnic cleansing \? \? \? \? \? \? tippu remaining arabs feigned surrender fired jewish troops , attackers killed arab soldiers civilians indiscriminately independent observers told guardian among bodies found arab men disguised women
backon vms huji ac il subject uva distribution world organization hebrew university jerusalem lines 33 article 1993apr27 virginia edu , ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) writes things university fun may admit partying go consistently ranked one playboy 's top party schools study importantly learn lot overall uva drug use actually lower average college u hate law books even though \( forces pc \) tried one last year \( way similar law university wisconsin \? found unconstitutional last year \) law relationship professors students passed thomas jefferson sole author virginia statute religious freedom \( basis first ten amendments \) , though given full credit righting bill rights someone picked right way , 're man everything sports academics partying i'm sure lot schools good well , n't start mailing junk i'm happy maybe 'll go one medical schools couple years medical school \? like fellow austrian dr mengele \? \? josh dr josh backon cardiology backon vms huji ac il
reply dcs witsend tnet com c sessions dcs witsend tnet com organization nobody really x newsposter tmail version 1 20r subject zionism racism distribution world lines 26 1993apr25 nysernet org , astein nysernet org \( alan stein \) wrote c sessions dcs witsend tnet com writes steve lets , zionism \? assuming mean , n't told , zionism racism tautological statement think confusing tautological false misleading , 're right n't express well dialog went zionism racism b zionism \? dc n't listening , \? words , first statement defined zionism discourse everything else redundant c sessions speaking note new network address dcs witsend tnet com author \( everything else ! \) tmail \( dos mail news shell \)
reply dcs witsend tnet com c sessions dcs witsend tnet com organization nobody really x newsposter tmail version 1 20r subject freedom u distribution world lines 47 1993apr25 virginia edu , ab4z virginia edu \( \) \( andi beyer \) wrote jaa12 cunixa cc columbia edu writes dear mr beyer never wise confuse freedom speech freedom racism violent deragatory unfortunate many fail understand crucial distinction fact , speach offensive , protection freedom speach laws would useless speach find questionable must protected , religiously blasphemous inherently racist civilized discourse scare tactics one enlighten one perceives ignorant idea behind freedom expression find offensive might perceived truth might find offensive might belief free exchange ideas \( insults case seems channel \) one change another 's erring ways jefferson said afraid tolerate error long reason left combat mean wade mutlu argic deluge comes every day \? us tired dragged content free pissing contests bigots intensely dislike stuck letting crap pass without comment though replying getting sucked let 's keep perspective imho , josh 's policy forwarding garbage question , without comment , relevant sysadmin strikes good balance stuff , , published public forum site , yet hardly matter confidentiality copyright local administration wants something , right , nobody 's twisting arms c sessions speaking note new network address dcs witsend tnet com author \( everything else ! \) tmail \( dos mail news shell \)
reply dcs witsend tnet com c sessions dcs witsend tnet com organization nobody really x newsposter tmail version 1 20r subject final solution gaza \? distribution world lines 78 1483500354 igc apc org , cpr igc apc org \( center political reflux \) wrote pseudo letterhead deleted dcs israeli jews fete uprising warsaw ghetto , repress violent means uprising gaza ghetto attempt starve gazans detect faint bias \? could israelis n't \? perhaps gazans n't starving \? gaza strip , tiny area land highest population density world , oh , oh n't realized chinese wiped hong kong , singapore sunk sea , several cities vanished either , taste quality 're see cut world weeks suppose footage cnn last night archival , ted turner faking nbc style \? another wee little exaggeration sake greater truth \? israeli occupier decided punish whole population gaza , 700 000 people , denying right leave strip seek work israel hey ! forgot israel also denied syrians 'right' come think , mexico denying 'right' evan write ! ever gently suggesting israel , unlike every country earth , n't allowed control traffic across borders \? polish non jews risked lives save jews ghetto , israeli jew known risked life help gazan resistance help given gazans israeli jews , dozens people , humanitarian assistance sounds like parallel , n't tell us many poles went ghetto join jews oops ! moment forgot poland , assistance could get killed come think , humanitarian assistance gazans get israelis killed , except gaza , 's likely gazan death squad office let 's keep parallel since gross numbers n't , 'll need value use gazan vs jewish initial population \? gazan vs jewish death rates \? gazans vs jews survived five years occupation \? israelis vs nazis attacked \? israelis vs poles charged aiding victims \? since two cases comparable , n't matter pick , 'll , right \? contrary popular hyperbole , idf could quite easily kill entire population gaza hours wanted \( , i'm exaggerating really n't want discuss \) note million dead gazans n't get much headline space dozen , soon forgotten exterminated , ca n't keep popping headlines final solution gaza would much better standpoint , n't israel go \? difficult question answer ca n't believe anything good jews , probably keep trying force fit facts theory c sessions speaking note new network address dcs witsend tnet com author \( everything else ! \) tmail \( dos mail news shell \)
aa229 freenet carleton ca \( steve birnbaum \) subject rejoinder questions israelis reply aa229 freenet carleton ca \( steve birnbaum \) organization national capital freenet lines 27 previous article , ohayon jcpltyo jcpl co jp \( tsiel ohayon \) says agree write except terrorist orgs shelling israel golan heights 1982 , rather lebanon golan heights held israel since 1967 , therefore plo could shelling israel , unless something aware oops small mistake thanks mentioning read israel line village got shelled terrorists last week children killed guess terrorists must gotten security zone think much shelling would happening security zone n't steve internet aa229 freenet carleton ca fidonet 1 163 109 18 mossad qube ocunix ca opinions associated anything , including head
bc744 cleveland freenet edu \( mark ira kaufman \) subject israel apartheid state \? quite organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 9 nntp posting host thor ins cwru edu arab citizens rights jews arabs exempt military service , arabs full voice israeli politics , degree choose get involved may vote arabs cabinet claim israel apartheid state racist claim , one based total disregard facts total hatred israel
hernlem chess ncsu edu \( brad hernlem \) subject zionism reply hernlem chess ncsu edu \( brad hernlem \) organization ncsu chem eng lines 26 article 1993apr29 das harvard edu , adam endor uucp \( adam shostack \) writes article 1 cs cmu edu anwar cs cmu edu \( anwar mohammed \) writes organization trying distribute nazi propaganda furthermore , attempt rationalize crude stereotyping pointing wtc bombing , arab americans involvement huh \? mohamed perhaps korean \? claim arab americans involvement wtc bombing \? ok , involvement alleged fbi , n't seem reliable days honestly , pile evidence pointing , seems 5 involved mean arab americans involved , blamed , denying arab americans involved sounds sorta silly adam n't think suspects americans consequently , could arab americans brad hernlem \( hernlem chess ncsu edu \)
ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) subject israel 's expansion ii organization university virginia lines 18 eeb1 kimbark uchicago edu writes article 1993apr27 virginia edu ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) writes jews stranded polish border since country accepted like arabs stranded border trials , hearing , expulsion based guilt due race due race due membership organization publically proclaimed would destroy state expelled furthermore kill large segment citizens state , based race actually 's israeli government claims trials held \( key thing free country like u \)
javed convex com \( javed \) subject stage set nntp posting host neptune convex com organization engineering , convex computer corp , richardson , tx , usa x disclaimer message written user convex computer corp opinions expressed user necessarily convex lines 65 taurus cs nps navy mil cc nps navy mil \( \) writes article world std com tti world std com \( joachim martillo \) writes heap \) similarly , malaysia founded original sins support axis anti chinese racism part intellectuals opposed heritage enlightenment really strange target martillo malaysia fully vindicated since shed colonial yoke legitimate economic success story success may dramatic japan singapore nevertheless fully vindicated , advocating anglo colonialism ludicrous malaysia next , suppose advocating china probably experiencing one greatest sustained economic booms history mankind think present day england position set stage colonization lucky keep intact us assistance proper agreements , british french colonial would hard primitive 3rd world elites resist resistance among deluded , brainwashed essentially enslaved populations would get iraq treatment dream problems even ground troops bosnia public opinion dictates loss lives \( even miniscule quantities \) , cannot tolerated rich countries really wierd come think , armed forces paid basically accept risk dying danger removed , viewed welfare grand scale , exactly public saying iraqi operation lead extraordinary low level casualties anomaly combination iraqi incompetence desert terrain future operation would lead casualties example bombing beirut lead gi deaths whole desert storm really think scum like ever asked whether vast majority indians would better british local rule \? driven crude desire power nationalism vehicle whereby indian nationalists persuaded lot poor deluded fools die order give small elite power exploit indians obviously information rest us aware otherwise , impossible draw outrageous conclusions santos francois peter mustafa 's cool wish everyone kind names world would certainly better place ! ! javed \( one name \)
ra itd umich edu \( jack love \) subject israeli destruction mosque \( \) jerusalem organization usr local trn lib organization lines 33 nntp posting host ra itd umich edu article news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) writes issue going presentation one reference probably wo n't resolve issue oppose insistence mosques destroyed even location one reference , spend quote dealing incidence , , nothing issue hand , end quote , almost hand comment two mosques destroyed support claim nature , authors support incident \? identifiable mosques destroyed certainly identifiable , names addresses \( location \) comment one reporter make us wonder happened means proves doubt israeli authorities ordered destruction mosques vicinity wailing wall mean , however , generalize points entire plaza , mosques , cleared make possible jews place worship place holiest many , denied millenia hand , throughout rest jerusalem israel , best knowledge , israeli authorities avoided damage islamic religious sites policies previous regimes destroyed jewish synagogues hate bigotry jack f love opinions expressed mine alone \( unless happen agree \)
dfs doe carleton ca \( david f skoll \) subject mosque jewish quarter \( israeli destruction \) organization dept electronics , carleton university lines 17 eggertj moses mit edu eggertj moses mit edu \( jim eggert x6127 g41 \) writes important note remains least one mosque jewish quarter old city , least according map might able find north synagogue mosque really still \? mosque built squatters \? jerusalem couple years ago , guide told us story mosque sure true apparently , built jewish convert islam dispute neighbours , built mosque annoy 's cute story , sure 's true david f skoll
aap wam umd edu \( alberto adolfo pinkas \) subject israel apartheid state organization university maryland , college park lines 110 nntp posting host rac2 wam umd edu article 1993may10 colorado edu perlman qso colorado edu \( eric perlman \) writes believe zionism , , form racism mean fact , specific ideas supports , form defines jew way wants accomplish goals nothing hypocrisy everything hypocrisy 've dealt arguments history net suffice say n't succeeded convincing anyone probably lack basis want convince anyone usenet , real world read opinions others subject , sometimes present opinion think net useful exchange ideas never wanted want convince anyone anything want deal certain people say , fine condemning movement nothing jewish nationalism never anything saying quite literally racist think jews people , added right state homeland , right every nation n't agree , suggest read dictionary interpretation plain inconsistent dictionary definition well modern history first , repeat , never said idea jews right state racist zionism , movement , idea think zionism way defines jew , example , racist like way believe irish right nationalism support bombing killing ira , believe jews right nationalism support zionism right 's 're wrong 's also know 're wrong zionism way monolithic never approaches zionism widespread ideologies meir kahane approaches racist kahane , one every approach zionism defines goals differently also defines different approach goals single belief jews , like every nation earth , deserve homeland period makes basis zionist movements however , considering , rest long zionism considers , example , jew jewish state based religion , consider zionism form racism well know , 80 israeli jews secular words way religious , probably n't even believe g makes interesting point people living jewish state shown jewish culture includes jewish religion , jewish people living jewish state shown us problems state 80 people secular judaism define according religious standards , marriage religious stage , law return defines jew according religious standard israelis believe god never become non jews \? still define jew based religious definition \? maybe , would consider hypocrisy support zionism disregard right self determination palestinian people struggle reach 'd wanted say first place , said took word words , took words normal , dictionary definition quite obvious use different dictionary rest english speaking world , base analysis misconceptions according webster 's ninth new collegiate dictionary , merriam webster inc , publishers , springfield , massachusetts , u , 1986 , page 593 , hy ri sy one believe one , saying one believes zionism simple matter people right nationalism , disregarding right palestinian people , according dictionary , hypocrisy really interested think , instead directly coming labels , like , send mail aap wam umd edu , exchange ideas learning words mean \? stand 've said know words mean stand said believe zionism form racism course , tend talk things defined broad sense eric perlman perlman qso colorado edu center astrophysics space astronomy , university colorado , boulder aap
reus klein dk \( peter reus christensen \) subject apology organization usr users mat reus organization lines 39 nntp posting host klein dk would like publicly apologize playing well sure feel necessary remorse another muslim lady \( \) seems attempt charm west forgetting really saying hate muslims hate certain things saying every depressing ponder prospects peace held people better , prejudices vices west thank views really depressing thus fallen temptation tease make little fun instead problems mobilize necessary remorse ! best regards peter reus christensen associate professor , dr phil department mathematics e mail reus math ku dk university copenhagen 5 phone 45 353 dk 2100 copenhagen fax 45 353 disclaimer except explicitly stated otherwise message signature authors purely private responsibility motto everyone given , abundance whoever , even taken matthew principle ch 25 v 29
eshneken ux4 cso uiuc edu \( edward shnekendorf \) subject profile organization university illinois urbana lines 38 chip ucdavis edu \( \) writes adam shostack \( adam endor uucp \) even though point article seemed flame , felt point lions share us foreign aid goes germany , us stationed hundered thousand troops 40 years , germans kicked economic collective ass money goes israel miniscule compared goes germany evasive comparison ! u troops stationed germany anywhere else world foreign aid , ! sure 're closet holocaust revisionist , adam \? \? \? suggestion write congressman senator ask official definition foreign aid recipients israel definitely top heap , matter try twist truth n't pull head ass reality \? first , deal subject lines \? think funny \? ha ha developed sense humor , i'm surprised let cage n't talk official definition foreign aid talk money really spent money spent troops germany \( ie paying troops , maintaining bases equip , etc \) israel plus , israel ask us send troops fight battles look amount money spent defending korean shipping lanes , norway , trouble spots world , see aid israel practical standpoint much israel gets \( assuming buy feeble argument \) \? point \? want subsidize israel \? well , two options 1 \) start campaign , get elected president , force congress cut aid israel 2 \) get fuck ! n't like country operates ca n't change move iran something love , ed
dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) subject addressing turkish genocide apology 451 summary upon checking reference organization p center regional studies lines 77 turkish historical revision auto residue zuma uucp , sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) , posted following \( source adventures near east rawlinson , jonathan cape , \( 30 bedford square , london , 1934 \( first published 1923 \) \( 287 pages \) \( \( memoirs british officer witnessed armenian genocide 2 5 \( million muslim people \) bull ! \( p 184 \( second paragraph \) \( \( received definite information horrors \( committed armenian kars plain , \( able judge want discipline \( treatment detached parties , wired tiflis \( zivin 'in interests humanity armenians \( left independent command moslem population , , \( troops without discipline effective control , \( atrocities constantly committed , \( justice eventually held morally responsible' page 184 copy rawlinson book , find following facsimile note word armenian n't even appear ! 184 adventures near east disposal journey , would become headquarters considerable time , therefore went trouble make habitable peculiar little locomotive , originally built america russian government , adapted burn either wood oil one covered truck men 's quarters one similar , fitted self railway officer also truck carry wood , three cars utmost small engine could pull small outfit started , rumours kinds reaching us departure indicating whole situation rapidly coming head , evident turks becoming face delay allies reaching definite decision regard future travelling little war time railway indeed experience , necessary carry gauge , test rails frequently , many places , sinking washing away ballast , rails required rectification able get train , even foot pace bridge also elaborate examination train upon , eventually obliged carry large tim temporarily shore many bridges whilst passed circumstances may imagined prog means rapid , frequently halt also supply wood fuel , considered achieved wonders , evening second day , 60 hours 70 miles , finally entered mountains understood worst troubles lie road kars descends foot hills cross frontier railway , however , follows main aras river val ley till frontier enters , whilst road cuts corner joins rail frontier post zivin , 15 miles main valley soon entering , confronted first serious fall rock 2 , 000 tons fallen cliff face entirely railway track , therefore , halted , , sending engine back , prepared david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org armenia learned lesson p center regional studies anatolia forgotten p box 382761 punishment inflicted 4 14 93 cambridge , 02238 late turkish president turgut ozal
cs utexas edu \( irfan \) subject stage set organization cs dept , university texas austin lines 17 nntp posting host pageboy cs utexas edu article iid ucdavis edu hamlet ucdavis edu \( \) writes reading plenty remarks claiming arrival restoration , could anyone 1 \) define , 2 \) indicate colonial countries remain , 3 \) indicate changes indicate restoration making \? pakistan definitely comes economic colonialism utility rates \( electricity , water gas \) set imf world bank governments come go whims fancy state department yet see govt survive doesnot support state department
sunder crhc uiuc edu \( srinivas sunder \) subject stage set organization center reliable high performance computing , university illinois urbana champaign lines 33 distribution world nntp posting host crhc uiuc edu article iid ucdavis edu , hamlet ucdavis edu \( \) writes reading plenty remarks claiming arrival restoration , could anyone 1 \) define , 2 \) indicate colonial countries remain , 3 \) indicate changes indicate restoration making \? 'll leave questions 1 2 answered elsewhere , question 3 \) something today might example restoration might namely , clinton administration considering asking un establish police force haiti n't hear thing said current govt haiti asked , real precedent \( barring somalia \) un getting involved internal conflicts might also answer question 2 \) neo colonial countries diffuse lot un \( security council \) , 'll take stab 1 \) new colonialism , defined articles read , would entail something nature un sec council , democracy , aid , education , free markets , free press , assured civilized country left behind note n't support idealized concept , simply think lot hogwash srinivas sunder sunder crhc uiuc edu university illinois shares views , 'd surprised n't smart generally \)
aap wam umd edu \( alberto adolfo pinkas \) subject israel apartheid state organization university maryland , college park lines 202 nntp posting host rac3 wam umd edu article 1993may10 colorado edu perlman qso colorado edu \( eric perlman \) writes article ag7 cville srv wam umd edu aap wam umd edu \( alberto adolfo pinkas \) writes want convince anyone usenet , real world read opinions others subject , sometimes present opinion think net useful exchange ideas never wanted want convince anyone anything fine opinion n't convincing anyone , 's getting refuted regularly facts \( case \) , n't likely opinions need revision \? said , want convice anyone , , opinions convince anyone \? believe opinions refuted facts first , repeat , never said idea jews right state racist zionism , movement , idea word utter complete horse puckey look term dictionary maybe youy view dictionary problem one thing accepted meaning word dictionary , sometimes completely different thing word came mean long time think zionism way defines jew , example , racist like ok , would define way , 're wrong definition among zionist movements know case , 's pointed net directly , yet continue maintain delusion ok tell many people zionist movements define jew different way , many define jew based religious way way believe irish right nationalism support bombing killing ira , believe jews right nationalism support zionism right comparing actions israel ira like comparing us chile pinochet \( example \) , ira role pinochet really need get history straight also need basic dictionary need start reading answering point movement claims nationalistic , mean consider nationalistic israel ira think starting put words mouth wrong stuff deleted pinkas statement , responding , asserted zionism uniform monolithic never said zionism monolithic going attribute things , present quotes said makes basis zionist movements however , considering , rest word n't believe words tell different story especially since based fact , innuendo misrepresentation problem could certainly interpret like running arguments first , put words mouth , , say ot believe makes interesting point people living jewish state shown jewish culture includes jewish religion , jewish people living jewish state shown us problems state 80 people secular judaism define according religious standards , marriage religious stage , law return defines jew according religious standard , n't ! nowhere law return demand one must religious even believe g become citizen israel n't try reading change \? say law return demand person religious \? , law return define jew \? said uses religious standard mother jew , jew , mother jewish , neither twist words , please true , debates israel abroad jew \? , debates taken religious secular would say religious people say \? would deny right free speech \? talking debate talking things right debate , 'll see happens right , things like let ask one thing understand israel citizenship nationality suppose \( ale \) f \( \) child israel nationality child 's id show , according one following cases \) f jewish b \) f c \) f muslim jewish \) f christian jewish e \) f non jewish israelis believe god never become non jews \? still define jew based religious definition \? 's called history think jews stuck together pogroms millenia europe \? know one think change order descent less legit \( religious jew 's point view \) 's plenty room zionism well know called history point ok , believe , according webster 's ninth new collegiate dictionary , merriam webster inc , publishers , springfield , massachusetts , u , 1986 , page 593 , hy ri sy one believe one , saying one believes zionism simple matter people right nationalism , disregarding right palestinian people , according dictionary , hypocrisy utter baloney way , believe palestinians right self determination , stated net , know 've seen interesting know \? ever talked forgotten \? right self determination cannot israel 's expense israel 's security comes first security must maintained 're also twisting words beyond belief think 's definition means context , need first grade course english definition talking \? know touchy never said support palestinian self determination gave example hypocrisy never said someone net guilty example nothing , nothing less clarify think \? n't use different meanings words dictionary , might believable several problems first , know words meanings given dictionary second , may come shock know words dictionary third , exchange ideas want , come nonsense believable using definitions given dictionary seems cannot answer ideas given others without insulting others sad facts resembled even slightest bit truth might believable put words mouth , might might start reading actually said far , come twisting said presenting things never said said way , answering find believable maybe , start reading actually said , added , might change mind fact nothing resembling fact 've said thread fact also 're using different definitions words based baloney anyone else first , nothing resembling fact added said , said , anyone else supposed mean \? eric perlman perlman qso colorado edu center astrophysics space astronomy , university colorado , boulder aap
aap wam umd edu \( alberto adolfo pinkas \) subject profiles shostack , freeman , death organization university maryland , college park lines 47 nntp posting host rac3 wam umd edu article 1993may10 colorado edu perlman qso colorado edu \( eric perlman \) writes eric perlman \( perlman qso colorado edu \) posts make good case study instead attempting enlightening pinkas errors ways , even politely asked continue debate email , persist publicly labeling posts , mine , fit description first thing upon entering newsgroup \? treat everyone n't agree opinions dirt , explain , call rude names , twist words flames need go \? defend quite well pinkas , thank nothing need defend said exchange ideas usenet people never attacked put need defend violent person , see anyone threatened opinions ideas others expressed usenet asked continue email interested flamefest , change words make present mine , worry need defend attacking next time try making comments try basic civility might get somewhere good advice 'nuff said eric perlman perlman qso colorado edu center astrophysics space astronomy , university colorado , boulder alberto pinkas aap wam umd edu umd edu
mach1 wlu ca \( friedman ishay \) subject israeli press organization wilfrid laurier university lines 85 article benali alcor benali alcor concordia ca \( ilyess b bdira \) writes bc744 cleveland freenet edu \( mark ira kaufman \) writes information israel since read american media israeli media , say absolute certainty anybody exclusively american press knowledge israel true picture going course never read arab media , read arab , israeli \( jer post , network enough \) jerusalem post small part israeli media \( one outsiders part , anyways \) never read ha'aretz , , hebrew papers , least seen articles translated , really getting israeli media western \( american , french , british \) reports say give israel 10 arabs 10 bias scale \( course switch polarities \) israeli newspapers get either 9 10 , american leading newspapers tv news range 6 left leaning ones \? 10 \( yes israelis israelis \) 6 10 \? stations pbs run shows israeli standpoint \? intifada got coverage 1987 1988 gassing kurds thousands \? montreal suburban \( local free newspaper \) probably closer kahane 's views israeli right wing newspapers , british montreal read suburban ever advocate kahane stupidity expelling arabs \? racist \? suburban columnists explain israeli standpoint nothing like kahane case , suburban paper minor local distribution influence range 0 \( neutral \) 10 , french \( , course \) range 2 \( afro french magazines \) 10 , arab official media range 0 5 \( egyptian \) 9 sa 10 \? want overdo stir people israel therefore since nothing claim israeli papers biased , course may lean right left , like media america still report events people know nothing choose form opinions israel mideast based knowledge average american relies exclusively american media report events mideast consistency accuracy average bias read would probably around 9 , average american would read read new york times similar news makers , 8 read relatively less biased newspapers better source closest thing zero \? ishay
phoenix princeton edu \( \) subject stop cross postings originator news nimaster nntp posting host phoenix princeton edu organization princeton university lines 14 , repeat , , cross post following subjects soc culture iranian jews supports serbs arab leaders bosnia bosnia stage set 's need bigotry hate ! believe , already reached quota year try next year
mach1 wlu ca \( friedman ishay \) subject uva organization wilfrid laurier university lines 14 article 1993apr27 virginia edu ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) writes things university fun may admit partying go consistently ranked one playboy 's top party schools study kind ranking system used \? ishay
mach1 wlu ca \( friedman ishay \) subject final solution gaza \? organization wilfrid laurier university lines 29 article igc apc org center policy research cpr igc apc org writes basically three alternatives gaza 1 throw jews sea basically make leave middle east go back came \( russia , europe , usa , etc \) 2 throw gazans sea , accordance yitzhak rabin 's wish many zionists rabin pm ever indicate wish \? try implement \? 3 israelis palestinians come honorable fair \( n't attempt say \) settlement , would allow person live dignity country freedom equality opt third alternative folks \? elias opt third ish
aap wam umd edu \( alberto adolfo pinkas \) subject israel apartheid state organization university maryland , college park lines 72 nntp posting host rac3 wam umd edu article 1993may10 colorado edu perlman qso colorado edu \( eric perlman \) writes word utter complete horse puckey look term dictionary ok lets look according dictionary , zi ism international movement orig establishment jewish national religious community palestine later support modern israel , support establishment nations based religious principles , support establishment nations based cultural identities questions ask anyone answer point someone said long time ago politics , like men , important say actually 1 \) mother jewish \( father \) apply law return , get jew trying return land , family expelled 2000 years ago \? 2 \) go back , nationality would id show \? 3 \) decided go back land relatives expelled 2000 years ago , first convert religion , apply law return member jewish nation apply someone whose mother jewish \? 4 \) nationality would show id case 3 \) \? 5 \) change day day converted loose part jewish nation \? 6 \) suppose want get married current wife , non jewish israel , \? 7 \) would situation change decided , going back israel , convert islam \? , one question believe people country care politics want left alone suppose father arab suppose born palestine , place part israel suppose father , grandfather well 20 30 generations born place suppose war independence father , scared fighting going , tries take family place secure , among people knows , speak language understands , worship god , suppose place arab country , suppose war new country created father used live , country called israel , country , jews world received people whose family left thet country 200 generation ago recieved granted full citizenship , decided go back father 's land , born 20 30 generations family born , right go back ask recognized way returning 2000 years \? , finally , people ask would define jew , irrelevant talking would define jew , people zionist organizations , important , israel , define jew would zionist define jew \? eric perlman perlman qso colorado edu center astrophysics space astronomy , university colorado , boulder aap
othello ucdavis edu \( gentleman loser \) subject illegal postings ucdavis summary apology real account holder originator othello ucdavis edu organization university california , davis lines 38 readers talk politics mideast , alt flame , alt stupidity posting message behalf staff member ucdavis whose account broken used post offensive messages groups dave begin included message othello ucdavis edu please advised person \( \) sending inflammatory remarks receiving illegally accessing account campus information technology security group cut account 's access hacker , every effort made track person apologize subjected derogatory comments made person name attached thank campus security nature problem sincerely , p ''' \( \) ooo \( \) ooo david mein , es ist ist ucdavis edu ich nicht von dir ucd news administrator und , nah eco
neep neep wisc edu \( \) subject rally bosnia \( washington c saturday , may 15 , 93 \) organization univ wis , madison , neep department distribution talk politics mideast lines 53 following announcement bosnia task force , usa yusuf islam \( formerly cat stevens london \) muhammad ali \( former champion \) grand washington rally saturday , may 15 , 93 twenty twenty five thousands expected march demanding end genocide bosnia rally begin lafayette park front white house largest planned rally ever muslims america , bosnia task force , usa called upon muslims usa hold rallies usa muslims 400 miles radius , however , requested come washington c rally front white house rally start sharp may 15 , 93 front white house march capitol hill requested lafayette park noon going big rally 20 , 000 persons expected participate new york targeting 50 buses people far texas arizona coming never washington 's history many muslims marched ready historical event \? call every one know bring rally demands 1 \) recognize genocidal nature milosevic regime aggression 2 \) lift arms embargo bosnian government 3 \) provide bosnian government arms self defence 4 \) use nato air power enforce conscience world community serbia 5 \) begin war crime immediately part solution , part problem ! members bosnia task force , usa , , ministry imam w mohammed , national community , bosnia action committee chicago , new york , american muslim council , michigan islamic council , balkan muslim association phone \( 312 \) 829 fax \( 312 \) 829 anyone interested putting end genocide committed bosnia join rally regardless religious association
perlman qso colorado edu \( eric perlman \) subject israel apartheid state nntp posting host qso colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 288 article cville srv wam umd edu aap wam umd edu \( alberto adolfo pinkas \) writes article 1993may10 colorado edu perlman qso colorado edu \( eric perlman \) writes article ag7 cville srv wam umd edu aap wam umd edu \( alberto adolfo pinkas \) writes want convince anyone usenet , real world read opinions others subject , sometimes present opinion think net useful exchange ideas never wanted want convince anyone anything fine opinion n't convincing anyone , 's getting refuted regularly facts \( case \) , n't likely opinions need revision \? said , want convice anyone , , opinions convince anyone \? believe opinions refuted facts n't paying attention arguments levelled , first , repeat , never said idea jews right state racist zionism , movement , idea word utter complete horse puckey look term dictionary maybe youy view dictionary problem one thing accepted meaning word dictionary , sometimes completely different thing word came mean long time hey , think dictionaries \? quite obviously need one good dictionary gives , well know think zionism way defines jew , example , racist like ok , would define way , 're wrong definition among zionist movements know case , 's pointed net directly , yet continue maintain delusion ok tell many people zionist movements define jew different way , many define jew based religious way n't think data exist directly way believe irish right nationalism support bombing killing ira , believe jews right nationalism support zionism right comparing actions israel ira like comparing us chile pinochet \( example \) , ira role pinochet really need get history straight also need basic dictionary need start reading answering point movement claims nationalistic , mean consider nationalistic israel ira think starting put words mouth wrong problem defining zionism one movement implying monolithic know never case stuff deleted pinkas statement , responding , asserted zionism uniform monolithic never said zionism monolithic going attribute things , present quotes said n't say directly implied , showed explicitly implied 're trying wo n't wash , know makes basis zionist movements however , considering , rest word n't believe words tell different story especially since based fact , innuendo misrepresentation problem could certainly interpret like running arguments first , put words mouth , , say ot believe 's , , running arguments makes interesting point people living jewish state shown jewish culture includes jewish religion , jewish people living jewish state shown us problems state 80 people secular judaism define according religious standards , marriage religious stage , law return defines jew according religious standard , n't ! nowhere law return demand one must religious even believe g become citizen israel n't try reading change \? say law return demand person religious \? , law return define jew \? said uses religious standard mother jew , jew , mother jewish , neither twist words , please said judaism defined according religious standards several different meanings , know one meanings say religious defined jews another say meet religious definition jew one others i'm twisting words i'm trying make aware words n't mean think true , debates israel abroad jew \? , debates taken religious secular would say religious people say \? would deny right free speech \? talking debate talking things right debate , 'll see happens right , things like let ask one thing understand israel citizenship nationality suppose \( ale \) f \( \) child israel nationality child 's id show , according one following cases actually , n't citizens' rights exactly cases , anyway \) f jewish jewish b \) f jewish c \) f muslim jewish \) f christian jewish 'll depend religion practiced house original law return would still admit person jewish , memory serves e \) f non jewish jewish israelis believe god never become non jews \? still define jew based religious definition \? 's called history think jews stuck together pogroms millenia europe \? know one think change order descent less legit \( religious jew 's point view \) 's plenty room zionism well know called history point ok , believe , 's valid , far see according webster 's ninth new collegiate dictionary , merriam webster inc , publishers , springfield , massachusetts , u , 1986 , page 593 , hy ri sy one believe one , saying one believes zionism simple matter people right nationalism , disregarding right palestinian people , according dictionary , hypocrisy utter baloney way , believe palestinians right self determination , stated net , know 've seen interesting know \? ever talked forgotten \? others right self determination cannot israel 's expense israel 's security comes first security must maintained 're also twisting words beyond belief think 's definition means context , need first grade course english definition talking \? one give absolutely inconsistent twist put know touchy never said support palestinian self determination gave example hypocrisy n't twist definition word 180 degrees order , everyone else knows i'm touchy never said someone net guilty example nothing , nothing less clarify think \? gave example example definition word twisted around 180 degrees n't use different meanings words dictionary , might believable several problems first , know words meanings given dictionary oh , dictionaries \? second , may come shock know words dictionary duh scientist , whose technical terms often found common dictionaries , know term common , like hypocrisy , good dictionary regarded authoritative source third , exchange ideas want , come nonsense believable using definitions given dictionary 's nonsense people read write , try associate meaning words dictionaries give meanings words , n't \? , assume 'd like words use mean 'd like fact , 're using different meanings dictionary , would like reader assign new meanings , never seems cannot answer ideas given others without insulting others sad cannot abide utter 've proven completely wrong facts resembled even slightest bit truth might believable put words mouth , might might start reading actually said never put even one syllable mouth tried prove failed far , come twisting said presenting things never said said way , answering find believable maybe , start reading actually said , added , might change mind read said add anything simply either n't know words n't mean 'd like cannot case since 've proven wrong quite obviously n't defense arguments presented , 're twisting meanings \? fact nothing resembling fact 've said thread fact also 're using different definitions words based baloney anyone else first , nothing resembling fact added said , said ha ! 's nothing resembling fact 've said never added anything said sad see model decorum tranquillity become like sport battleground rival ideologies slug glee tim rice , chess eric perlman perlman qso colorado edu center astrophysics space astronomy , university colorado , boulder
adams bellini berkeley edu \( adam l schwartz \) subject israel apartheid state nntp posting host bellini berkeley edu organization u c berkeley erl lines 45 article cville srv wam umd edu aap wam umd edu \( alberto adolfo pinkas \) writes 3 \) decided go back land relatives expelled 2000 years ago , first convert religion , apply law return member jewish nation apply someone whose mother jewish \? i'm sure hope answer ca n't apply law return conversion , 've elected part jewish nation 5 \) change day day converted loose part jewish nation \? moment converted , officially world consider part jewish nation , jewish nation consider member \? suppose father arab suppose born palestine , place part israel suppose father , grandfather well 20 30 generations born place suppose war independence father , scared fighting going , tries take family place secure , among people knows , speak language understands , worship god , suppose place arab country , suppose war new country created father used live , country called israel , country , jews world received people whose family left thet country 200 generation ago recieved granted full citizenship , decided go back father 's land , born 20 30 generations family born , right go back ask recognized way returning 2000 years \? result wars brought arabs jews attempt annihilate israel , arabs lost claim land attacking israel illegal pay price feel sorry palestinians \? yes blame arab nations problems , israel adam schwartz adams robotics berkeley edu
hamlet ucdavis edu \( \) subject stage set organization computing services , uc davis lines 26 srinivas writes people 's current govt get thrown , 'll find way getting us un short cut process hasten , sets bad precedent us interfere everywhere \? right doorstep cuba \? precisely , cuba \? \? \? \? \? ruled thugs elected leader asked support reestablish peoples u democracy wishes , perfect right help without whining parties turns colonialism poeple n't like , find way throw implicit assumption outsiders right sit judgement another people , act , roots old colonial attitudes lie today , motives noble tomorrow , may ever said people commit genocide right commit genocide \? \? want world criminals agains humanity place hide , want special designed protect nobody right commit crimes humanity , loose right self determination classical colonialism ,
aap wam umd edu \( alberto adolfo pinkas \) subject israel apartheid state organization university maryland , college park lines 206 nntp posting host rac2 wam umd edu article 1993may10 colorado edu perlman qso colorado edu \( eric perlman \) writes fine opinion n't convincing anyone , 's getting refuted regularly facts \( case \) , n't likely opinions need revision \? said , want convice anyone , , opinions convince anyone \? believe opinions refuted facts n't paying attention arguments levelled , far , presented opinions opposed mine would hardly take facts maybe youy view dictionary problem one thing accepted meaning word dictionary , sometimes completely different thing word came mean long time hey , think dictionaries \? quite obviously need one good dictionary gives , well know could give hundreds words mother tongue \( spanish \) , use never find dictionary even , could show lot meanings words spanish different dictionary ok tell many people zionist movements define jew different way , many define jew based religious way n't think data exist directly guess n't curious know many people define many different ways term jew , basis movement \? , evidence shows , jew , considered terms israel , law return jewish nationality defined terms religion cultural identity , even 80 defined jews isreal religious way believe irish right nationalism support bombing killing ira , believe jews right nationalism support zionism right comparing actions israel ira like comparing us chile pinochet \( example \) , ira role pinochet really need get history straight also need basic dictionary need start reading answering point movement claims nationalistic , mean consider nationalistic israel ira think starting put words mouth wrong problem defining zionism one movement implying monolithic know never case problem saying support zionism believe among people soviet communist party might even inspired noble ideals change final results happened ussr \? way , even zionist movement homogeneous , matter matters result never said zionism monolithic going attribute things , present quotes said n't say directly implied , showed explicitly implied 're trying wo n't wash , know never said directly indirectly talking individuals defined zionists sure good , honest caring people talking results zionist movement talking movement whose actions resulted law return religious definition jew , country defines nationality based religion talking something consider form racism based religious belief , arabs israel cannot serve army becasue born right religion said judaism defined according religious standards several different meanings , know one meanings say religious defined jews another say meet religious definition jew one others i'm twisting words i'm trying make aware words n't mean think never heard definition religious defined jews always seen definition person jew mother jew , person convert , although seen people argue last part talking debate talking things right debate , 'll see happens right , things like let ask one thing understand israel citizenship nationality suppose \( ale \) f \( \) child israel nationality child 's id show , according one following cases actually , n't citizens' rights exactly cases , anyway , difference citizenship nationality israel \? mean actually , n't \? \) f jewish jewish b \) f jewish c \) f muslim jewish \) f christian jewish 'll depend religion practiced house original law return would still admit person jewish , memory serves , follows religious definition cultural one call form racism know touchy never said support palestinian self determination gave example hypocrisy n't twist definition word 180 degrees order , everyone else knows i'm touchy need assume representation everybody else make points assume talking stuff , still believe example valid one would hypocrisy say one supports nationalism support zionism disregard palestinian 's right never said someone net guilty example nothing , nothing less clarify think \? gave example example definition word twisted around 180 degrees example trying justify something nobody talked first , know words meanings given dictionary oh , dictionaries \? reference 's nonsense people read write , try associate meaning words dictionaries give meanings words , n't \? yes , language something evolves time seems cannot answer ideas given others without insulting others sad cannot abide utter 've proven completely wrong really posted another post definition zionism , post showed telling begining zionism form racism , even zionists racist individual private lifes movement ask state national rights people , practice , people defined according religion , , racist like never put even one syllable mouth tried prove failed next time careful ha ! 's nothing resembling fact 've said never added anything said know difference opinion fact \? eric perlman perlman qso colorado edu center astrophysics space astronomy , university colorado , boulder aap
sunder crhc uiuc edu \( srinivas sunder \) subject stage set organization center reliable high performance computing , university illinois urbana champaign lines 62 distribution world nntp posting host crhc uiuc edu article ucdavis edu , hamlet ucdavis edu \( \) writes srinivas writes people 's current govt get thrown , 'll find way getting us un short cut process hasten , sets bad precedent us interfere everywhere \? right doorstep cuba \? precisely , cuba \? \? \? \? \? ruled thugs elected leader asked support reestablish peoples well , let 's delve one level deeper democracy better means govt \? president georgia elected thumping majority booted later , w objections un similarly , people algeria elected islamic party power junta declared illegal cases , personally problems outcome , voice people hallowed thing world community claims revere , n't interfering \? u democracy wishes , perfect right help without whining parties turns colonialism poeple n't like , find way throw exactly point inevitably turn way , save lot pain trouble simply letting people sort problems colonial interventions , even haiti , n't worked past 102 1915 us invaded 1915 left 1933 , almost 17 years intended success \? well , look haiti today past 40 years decide success long us , remember n't last long , obviously implicit assumption outsiders right sit judgement another people , act , roots old colonial attitudes lie today , motives noble tomorrow , may ever said people commit genocide right commit genocide \? \? nobody people right self defense un wants arm bosnians revolutionaries whoever , problems cross line attempt arrange boundaries , etc , vance owen plan one piece insanity want world criminals agains humanity place hide , want special designed protect nobody right commit crimes humanity , loose right self determination classical colonialism , finally clearly stated point difference colonialism good side , stated removing thugs able lord powerless people worried bad side assert , prepared let natural forces take course mean avoid bad side colonialism srinivas sunder sunder crhc uiuc edu university illinois shares views , 'd surprised n't smart generally \)
avr cbnewsj cb att com \( adam v reed \) subject israeli destruction mosque \( \) jerusalem organization summary thanks references lines 35 article eggertj moses mit edu , eggertj moses mit edu \( jim eggert x6127 g41 \) writes article cbnewsj cb att com avr cbnewsj cb att com \( adam v reed \) writes 've read history books dealing period , good bad , possible missed one two , none 've read documents razing mosques think remarkable claim requires specific documentation jake demands , adam requires specific documentation razing mosques jerusalem either reading p , would already seen documentation forgetful newcomers , however , references thanks posting references normally read p , posted request references jim 's article cross posted soc culture jewish allegations jewish disrespect objects buildings religions one antisemitic stereotypes western culture , rumors church host probably caused pogroms blood libel stereotypes culture create cognitive illusions stereotypes therefore claim appears stereotype treated decent people utmost suspicion unless documented claim cross posted news group documented , c j , reference given first time appears claim documented , regard whole episode disgusting shameful especially official failed provide proper temporary facilities evicted jordanians probably jewish , jew know known better adam v reed att com
aap wam umd edu \( alberto adolfo pinkas \) subject israel apartheid state organization university maryland , college park lines 79 nntp posting host rac2 wam umd edu article 1993may10 pasteur berkeley edu adams bellini berkeley edu \( adam l schwartz \) writes article cville srv wam umd edu aap wam umd edu \( alberto adolfo pinkas \) writes 3 \) decided go back land relatives expelled 2000 years ago , first convert religion , apply law return member jewish nation apply someone whose mother jewish \? i'm sure hope answer ca n't apply law return conversion , 've elected part jewish nation point converting another religion loose cultural identity , loose religious identification consider defining belonging nation claims right state based religious belief form racism 5 \) change day day converted loose part jewish nation \? moment converted , officially world consider part jewish nation , jewish nation consider member \? part nation defined culture religion actually , atheist , fact like converting non jewish terms religion , still considered part jewish nation proud jewish culture giving importance jewish religion , even , proud jewish culture still convinced real god another one know anyone lost american nation changed god suppose father arab suppose born palestine , place part israel suppose father , grandfather well 20 30 generations born place suppose war independence father , scared fighting going , tries take family place secure , among people knows , speak language understands , worship god , suppose place arab country , suppose war new country created father used live , country called israel , country , jews world received people whose family left thet country 200 generation ago recieved granted full citizenship , decided go back father 's land , born 20 30 generations family born , right go back ask recognized way returning 2000 years \? result wars brought arabs jews attempt annihilate israel , arabs lost claim land attacking israel illegal pay price feel sorry palestinians \? yes blame arab nations problems , israel still believe never actions states individuals happen live way think right blame israelis human rights violations israel , think assume arabs guilty actions arab states people fled homes scared , still suffering responsible , remember also told point ended diaspora , course , others want done adam schwartz adams robotics berkeley edu alberto pinkas aap wam umd edu umd edu
jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) subject israeli destruction mosque \( \) jerusalem organization department redundancy department lines 66 article eggertj moses mit edu eggertj mit edu writes article 3j1 bony1 bony com jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) writes aware incidents asked document accusation repeat request , nay , demand , either substantiate accusation else desist spewing baseless eggert article cbnewsj cb att com avr cbnewsj cb att com \( adam v reed \) writes 've read history books dealing period , good bad , possible missed one two , none 've read documents razing mosques think remarkable claim requires specific documentation jake demands , adam requires specific documentation razing mosques jerusalem either reading p , would already seen documentation forgetful newcomers , however , references well , 've reading p saw write article eggertj moses mit edu wrote balance , perhaps mention mosques jerusalem razed israeli victory 1967 eye eye , guess statment clearly tries balance arab atrocities noting single incident israelis war time holy site even characterize eye eye also wrote would false read history , learn right 1967 war , victorious israelis decided section newly captured east jerusalem , near wailing wall section mosques razed find source notes 1 mosque razed followed episode example good government running amok newly acquired power really \? still feel israelis comparable running amok power , say , iraqis \? eye eye comparisons n't match realities us familiar quoting west bank story , pages 35 36 night june 10 , israeli officer marched door door happened war ! fierce mighty war , would say jordanians indiscriminately shot ancient structures custom describing bullet holes walls city \? war ! certainly eye eye israelis harbor feelings revenge arabs generally one reasons peace movement exists israel nowhere else e jake livni jake bony1 bony com ten years , george bush american occupied new york replaced jimmy carter opinions employer opinions standard failed president
jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) subject profiles shostack , freeman , death organization department redundancy department lines 29 article 1993may10 colorado edu perlman qso colorado edu \( eric perlman \) writes article ucdavis edu chip ucdavis edu \( \) writes 's opinion , course ! take military budget definition foreign aid , foreign aid send annually israel easily multiplied beyond three six \( depending whose figures believe \) million hard earned u taxpayer 's dollars oh really ! let 's see costs us armed forces roughly 25k salaries average man woman uniform normally takes 2 3 times actual salary amount support worker thus roughly 150k soldiers currently stationed germany get nearly 4 billion dollars annual cost aid israel personnel , even counting spent local workers equipment ! 're beginning scratch surface know much military equipment costs \? last time tried buy mil spec hammer , coffee pot toilet seat \? paying israel dirty work 's without putting american soldiers 's lives line much , much , much cheaper uncle sam 's arrangements much rest world jake livni jake bony1 bony com ten years , george bush american occupied new york replaced jimmy carter opinions employer opinions standard failed president
jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) subject israeli destruction mosque \( \) jerusalem organization department redundancy department lines 27 article eggertj moses mit edu eggertj mit edu writes article news cso uiuc edu eshneken ux4 cso uiuc edu \( edward shnekendorf \) writes important note remains least one mosque jewish quarter old city , least according map might able find north synagogue mosque really still \? yes , taken photos 's mosque built squatters \? dunno one compare treatment one given synagogues jewish quarter 1948 , fell arab dominion 22 27 synagogues burned mobs , 5 razed jordanian army think comparison israelis done excellent , certainly perfect , job maintaining arab mosques n't sound like eye eye anymore changed tune \? jake livni jake bony1 bony com ten years , george bush american occupied new york replaced jimmy carter opinions employer opinions standard failed president
jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) subject mosque jewish quarter \( israeli destruction \) organization department redundancy department lines 25 article dfs dfs doe carleton ca \( david f skoll \) writes jerusalem couple years ago , guide told us story mosque sure true apparently , built jewish convert islam dispute neighbours , built mosque annoy 's cute story , sure 's true gives story explaining presence several synagogues moslem quarter , story becomes suspect reality , old city past became 1948 pre israel jerusalem , many jews called moslem quarter postal telephone directories time prove 's really rather interesting hear arabs claim house store family centuries even clear photos documents show jewish owned business location decades ago jake livni jake bony1 bony com ten years , george bush american occupied new york replaced jimmy carter opinions employer opinions standard failed president
adams bellini berkeley edu \( adam l schwartz \) subject israel apartheid state nntp posting host bellini berkeley edu organization u c berkeley erl lines 37 article m06 cville srv wam umd edu aap wam umd edu \( alberto adolfo pinkas \) writes article 1993may10 pasteur berkeley edu adams bellini berkeley edu \( adam l schwartz \) writes point converting another religion loose cultural identity , loose religious identification consider defining belonging nation claims right state based religious belief form racism part nation defined culture religion actually , atheist , fact like converting non jewish terms religion , still considered part jewish nation proud jewish culture giving importance jewish religion , even , proud jewish culture still convinced real god another one know anyone lost american nation changed god alberto , 've repeatedly misunderstood postings making exact point 've made several times different definition religion n't believe religious aspects judaism jew \( would confine judaism religion sense christianity \) , converting judaism , n't mean believing god judaism mean voluntarily removing jewish nation agnostic still consider jewish cultural heritage \( admit many religious jews would argue completely jewish lack faith , judaism religion dissent debate n't \? \) fact one opt become jewish simply converting judaism makes nation jewish people least racist open nation ! make point defining member jewish nation religion \( , say , religious belief \) racism come incorrect conclusion use different definition religion define law return define judaism adam schwartz
dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) subject accounts anti armenian human rights violations azerbaijan 024 summary finish armenians , 'll go russians ! organization p center regional studies lines 316 's room christians ! finish armenians , 'll go russians ! deposition melkumian 1 born 1963 teacher boarding school 1 resident building 2b , apartment 21 block sumgait azerbaijan fate everything , happy family , , 25 , 've become widow , i'm left raise three children alone third , yet two months old , born yerevan igor thought girl would call raisa , mother law , boy , 'd call , igor 's grandfather girl , , without igor , named raisa , honor dead grandmother family neighbors since 1965 igor grew together , friends childhood got engaged 16 1981 , 18 , married two children born us sumgait daughter 6 years old , name kristina , son , seryozha , four half first shall tell happened february 27 day way home work passed lenin square , 1 , 500 people gathered komsomol members , pioneers children 's organization , party members non party people well shouting , 's room christians ! finish armenians , 'll go russians ! even cried , death armenians ! absurd rumors circulating town became frightened came home , , told everything seen downtown family could n't believe father law melkumian , n't home , azerbaijani wedding eight o'clock returned barely finished parking car rear window smashed rock got car one well telling everything , , said , , longer government \? day igor said , papa , something terrible happening city said , 'll stay home , one drive us home day passed february 28 , sunday , n't go called relatives asked kinds questions , said thing sometime around evening started smashing car armenian neighboring building ira , brother law 's wife , called police 're wrecking car , help called called , nonetheless n't come n't anything february 29 , monday , even though troops city , afraid go work called school keys classroom told senior teacher send someone keys , would n't coming agreed , even said , fine , n't come , understand 's going town , n't come , 28th , family came came father law said , uncle , broke windows , bad things happening town uncle misha even said , eyes saw chasing naked girls streets n't know , said , leave town well 29th already trying decide go , thinking 'd go dacha got couple bags together , clothes , food , bare essentials somewhere around 4 45 building manager came said , uncle , situation town bad , n't go father even opened said , maybe 'll drive dacha , 'll safer , said , 'll worse , 'll safer home said n't afraid , something happens 'll send people save left 15 minutes passed 200 people burst courtyard us home time igor two children , ira edik daughter , sister law ira , mother father law family , three , uncle misha , zhasmen , daughter marina started breaking door remember edik igor told us , go room close door close door calm children wo n't hear 's anyone home children started crying suddenly ira , brother law 's wife , suggested , let 's run onto balcony two daughters law children , zhasmen marina raced onto balcony sister law mother law ran said , quick , balcony , 'll kill lived second floor needed cross balcony neighbor 's first could n't manage balcony looked onto street time people coming home work , many stood , watching pleaded begged please , call someone , someone come ! even started shouting 'll throw children , 'll throw , catch take somewhere , least children survive either afraid n't know looked though watching movie started throwing stones us 'll say , n't bandits , people part building entryway , regular people , bus even stopped remember man 's voice saying armenians climbing balcony ira , sister law , helped us get children pregnant , seven months pregnant , n't yet seven , six half climbed think zhasmen went first know , n't remember well zhasmen went first , think , edik 's wife ira children , screaming crying kristina said , mamma , n't throw us balcony , 're afraid ! lilia crying , kristina seryozha crying kristina n't even want climb shouted , i'm staying grandmother , i'm staying grandma ! loved grandma , loved mother law shouted , oh , kristina 's still , 's still , save kristina , ! ira helped us climb , kristina coming last ira helped us went back inside started pounding neighbor 's balcony door pounded fist , , open door , open , please ! n't open , go away , go anywhere , go , i'm opening door neighbor , friends , never refused anything , ever ! apparently thought going break windows , opened door opened said , karina , karina , go away , go anywhere , n't stay , 'll kill us , , begged , please , least take children , 'll leave , 'll go back , said , leave sons ran , one knife 's brother , 's around 18 , shouted us get , leave , 'll kill knife ! became terrified , took children went entryway went stairs went heard loudspeaker courtyard armenians must killed , 've taken best places , best apartments ! one said , let armenian blood flow , none survive ! heard went upstairs started knocking doors one opened door ! third floor , fourth could n't see zhasmen longer ira came upstairs later even thought let stay , would save head spinning killing family , next entryway two children seryozha four , kristina five half crying , mamma , 're scared ! frightened n't even know calm , try calm \? awful third floor man open door asked , open , let inside ! opened door slightly said , ! ! said ! went fifth floor pounded fists door might opened , man house , stood , looking ready get knees almost get knees please , beg , least take children n't azerbaijani , lezgin n't even know , let inside went , zhasmen already two minutes n't passed ira lilia came stairs lilia crying n't want open door started pleading , please , open door , 's ira lilia ! open door ! said , , i'm afraid said , please , open door , please ! looked looked long time opened door ira came lilia threw 's arms , crying man locked us bathroom sat long time door told us , calm children , calm , calm \? man hiding us , family \? still apartment sensed none us would come alive said , igor , edik , let 's say farewell edik turned around looked say , kind joke \? thought would kill us igor looked , already late ! started pounding door , igor standing next door told us , go lock room sit tight thought room went onto balcony went edik , igor , let 's say farewell igor n't think could climb balcony get , ca n't believe able save igor put helmet , edik coat , put fur hat men igor , edik , father , misha stood next door thought would pound leave side door ordered azerbaijani open door ! silent , waiting someone outside door said , 're home , 're , break door ! remember father law whispering , 're going break , 's coming something hands , think knife got , going defend hall near door two metal chair legs outside door said , 're counting five , open ! quiet , n't answer made like one home figured 'd leave , 'd get tired leave father law said , 's possible 'd come home \? everyone knows us , sumgait knows family , good terms everyone indeed day pass n't azerbaijani guest table nice dacha , everyone would get together often , azerbaijanis liked us save , flee home ira , remember , said , i'm leaving , brothers parents , i'm going fight alongside 's said picked knife said , open door come apartment i'm going fight alongside family , i'm going anywhere 's broke apartment heard fighting shouting noise terrible hid upstairs fifth floor lezgin 's apartment , could hear everything , even ira 's voice remember calling mother several times called long time started pounding door bathroom open door , ira , 's shouting , 's ira shouting , 's voice ! lezgin said , 's nothing , calm , , 's apartment lying 'd calm two hours went lezgin opened door said , karina , igor got away , calm ran away saw igor break away run eyes killed outside , next building bathroom experienced every possible human terror way ira shouted ! shouted , save , mamma , save ! mamma , mamma ! repeated several times wild din many people , shouting , , howling , whistling ca n't imagine going , roar like apparently , killed ira murderers came entryway hiding came upstairs , way fifth floor n't know looking armenians us particular , think looking us climbed balconies someone street saying daughters law climbing balconies heard ira heard coming stairs entryway doors thought last moments , started saying good bye children , kissing sleeping woke kristina ! seryozha , wake ! tell ira ira , something happens , 'll throw balcony fifth floor apparently lezgin neighbor opened door , later said , opened door told armenians inside left neighbor went balcony see gone n't friends lezgin neighbors , knew building people friends would n't even consider hiding us lezgin let us bathroom candle burning said , karina , 're lights block whole block dark , whole block ! 's huge block , lezgin said , i'm afraid keep morning , i'm afraid neighbors , might kill saving said , saying , 'll leave ca n't leave children middle night give us time find somewhere else hide said , well ok , go look asked ira , ira , want go \? ira said , , 'll stay children , karina said , fine , 'll go zhasmen went downstairs together dark one courtyard dark , pitch black l afraid go seven , igor always met work accompanied home , never went alone middle night slaughter like , probably eleven later called boarding school director answered said , karina , \? n't know , calling public phone outside n't know got confused hung receiver found time , asked , time \? said 11 20 , think , n't really remember anyway zhasmen went courtyard look see appears person far apartment smell something burnt became horrified looked corpse long time either ira edik saw one , zhasmen grabbed hand squeezed hurry , let 's go hurry , come , turning around \? turned around saw large truck , must belonged bandits , came kill us truck like lived third entryway , truck next fourth walked quickly , holding hands thought , go police 'll put away could n't count reached police station saw military vehicle went said , soldier , block 41 , n't know 've killed people injured need save ! said , go police station tell everything said , i'm afraid go , i'm afraid said , n't afraid went police wrote address , military vehicle went building n't go , left police station gave addresses mother brothers 'd rescue , n't know happened brought children ira lilia first took us kgb , two three morning around five took us city party committee , many people , many pregnant wearing nothing dress seryozha wearing shirt , kristina little dress coat , boots , nothing ! sat three whole days city party committee lezgin told igor escaped thought probably alive two half days , took us , armenians sumgait , march 6 people central committee came told us , karina , ira , need , come us city party committee mamma come , looking six days , brothers , uncle went city party committee waited courtyard wearing nothing dress , ira dress well strong wind march 6 hour went one told us , karina , ira , gather courage would like go burial \? said , , really kill \? ! said , let 's look long list , started reading igor melkumian , husband , eduard melkumian , brother law , melkumian , sister law , melkumian , father law , raisa melkumian , mother law read names said , get car , let 's go burial buried family could n't believe time , could n't conceive imagine even think shall explain children 're older \? children attached father grandfather grandmother kristina n't love way loved grandfather grandmother , spoiled kristina would always announce , grandma better anyone ! , even though getting used mother , 's difficult , told 're bad grandmother n't know , asked , kristina , 's papa \? said , killed knows , understands recently seryozha severely something , started shouting , papa comes i'm going tell everything ! july 26 , 1988 boarding house near village district armenian ssr reference 1 sumgait tragedy pogroms armenians soviet azerbaijan , volume , eyewitness accounts , edited samuel shahmuradian , forward yelena bonner , 1990 , published aristide caratzas , ny , page 318 324 david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org armenia learned lesson p center regional studies anatolia forgotten p box 382761 punishment inflicted 4 14 93 cambridge , 02238 late turkish president turgut ozal
reply dcs witsend tnet com c sessions dcs witsend tnet com organization nobody really x newsposter tmail version 1 20r subject israeli destruction mosque \( \) jerusalem distribution world lines 51 news service uci edu , tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) wrote article eggertj moses mit edu eggertj mit edu writes article 3j1 bony1 bony com jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) writes aware incidents article cbnewsj cb att com avr cbnewsj cb att com \( adam v reed \) writes 've read history books dealing period , good bad , possible missed one two , none 've read documents razing mosques think remarkable claim requires specific documentation forgetful newcomers , references reference based posting originally book west bank story , rafik \( new york 1982 original title die story \) quoting west bank story , pages 35 36 night june 10 , israeli officer marched door door moghrabi quarter east jerusalem giving residents three hours' notice evacuate homes participants july 24 , 1967 meeting group arab political figures protested dress israelis visiting mosques destruction two mosques moghrabi quarter adjacent western wall issue going presentation one reference probably wo n't resolve issue oppose insistence mosques destroyed even location one reference , spend quote dealing incidence , , nothing issue hand , end quote , almost hand comment two mosques destroyed tim , 're missing big hand accept every word quoted still zero evidence mosques razed note refers mosques razed people protested alleged razing well know common tactic \( anyone forgotten temple mount riots , moslem crowd led believe israeli guards cover instead stop \? \) c sessions speaking note new network address dcs witsend tnet com author \( everything else ! \) tmail \( dos mail news shell \)
khalid bunce hw stratus com \( khalid chishti \) subject please ! show washington dc bosnia \( may 15th \) organization stratus computer , inc lines 46 nntp posting host bunce hw stratus com appeal show washington dc saturday participate peaceful demonstration sake humanity ! ! critical point history world make change otherwise things change bosnia rapes killings ethnic cleansing go norm days follow un get towns fall thousands inocent civilians \( like past weekend ! \) happened jews 1940 's , 's happening muslims today next victim \? \? since europeans want remain indifferent issue , time come us take leadership role stop crimes humanity time real folks , people new england bosnian relief committee seriously believe clinton 's adminstration stop supporting bosnian cause without sustained public pressure called sen john kerry 's office saying \( senator \) waiting president take decision , means wait join band wagon later ever moves ! please n't rely others take part demonstration individual make big difference bring families , help great cause also fun know several families massachusetts travelling friday night participate contact local islamic center bosnia relief agency want travel pre arranged busses best option students rent car car pool please , spread word around regards , khalid chishti live massachusetts want info call \( new england bosnian relief committee \) 617 623 1973 new england bosnian relief committee phone \( 617 \) 464 0111 disclaimer opinions nothing employer
pitt edu \( richard thorne \) subject e peace talks organization university pittsburgh lines 24 organization st elizabeth hospital , youngstown , oh lines 13 nntp posting host yfn ysu edu dzk cs brown edu \( danny keren \) writes little goebbels , forgot , talking alleged infection fine egyptian men , mossad agent caught spying father egypt noted , women muslim israeli , spy , n't infect anybody jewish version story ! ! muslim israeli thought jewish state n't yet defined point \? post hospital \? inmates foam cushion ward net access ! take pill pal , richard thorne rdt med pitt edu
center policy research cpr igc apc org subject israel apartheid state nf id r cdp cdp 000 1939 nf cdp uucp ! cpr may 11 05 56 00 1993 lines 39 think generally accepted criteria according one evaluate whether certain policies practices constitute racial discrimination criteria found example 1 international convention abolition forms racial discrimination \( ratified countries \) 2 international covenant political civil rights 3 human rights charter 4 european convention human rights one reads carefully racial discrimination defined legally binding instruments , resort sophistry , obvious state israel guilty racial discrimination people suffering extreme form racial zionist regime palestinian refugees , live israeli military control others live diaspora entitled return homeland sole reason jews international law include provisions permits denial rights , circumstance israel 's actions denial totally illegal immoral allowing return refugees permitting settle tel area state israel , state would finally gain international law could justified asking recognized would facilitate peaceful integration israel middle east constitute best guarantee permanent jewish presence area attempt create separation , formal human , israeli jewish palestinian arab communities , fraught implications hope u jews , sincerely wish peace prevail israel palestine , finally realize fact elias davidsson ps please read carefully first post topic , facts zionist racial discrimination described
center policy research cpr igc apc org subject zionist leaders' frank statements nf id n cdp 000 nf cdp uucp ! cpr may 11 05 18 00 1993 lines 230 center policy research cpr subject zionist leaders' frank statements following quotations zionist leaders appear numerous scholarly works dealing palestine question urge access original sources , verify authenticity source post finding , adhering truth whatever thanks elias davidsson quotations zionist leaders 1 thing palestinians \( golda meir , prime minister israel , london sunday times , 15 june 1969 \) 2 , however , difficulty zionist dares avert eyes , though rarely likes face palestine proper already inhabitants \( israel , voice jerusalem , london 1920 , p 88 \) 3 settled land , arabs able around like cockroaches bottle \( raphael , israeli chief staff , new york times , 14 april 1983 \) 4 palestinians beasts walking two legs \( menachem begin , prime minister israel speech knesset , quoted , beasts , new statesman , 25 june 1982 \) 5 process palestinians removal poor must carried \( dr theodor herzl , complete diaries , herzl press , 1960 , , p 88 \) 6 must clear room people together country solution palestine without arabs way transfer arabs neighboring countries , transfer one village , one tribe , left \( joseph weitz , jewish national fund , administrator responsible zionist colonization davar , 29 september 1967 \) 7 shall try spirit population palestinians across border procuring employment transit countries , denying employment country \( theodor herzl , complete diaries , herzl press , 1960 , , p 88 \) 8 zionists looked means cause tens thousands arabs remained galilee flee gathered jewish , contact arabs different villages asked ears arabs great jewish reinforcement arrived galilee going burn villages suggest arabs , friends , escape still time tactic reached goal wide areas cleaned \( alon , ha palmach , hebrew , ii p 268 , quoted , conquest , ips , 1971 \) 10 jews must expel arabs take place \( david ben gurion , 1937 , quoted , ben gurion palestine arabs , oxford university press , 1985 , p 89 \) 11 must everything ensure palestinian refugees never return \( david ben gurion , diary , 19 july 1948 , quoted michael bar , ben gurion armed prophet , prentice hall , 1967 , p 157 \) 12 country mostly empty desert , islands arab settlement \( peres , minister defense , quoted david 's sling arming israel , nicholson , 1970 , p 249 \) 13 story danger extermination jews blown justify annexation new arab territories \( mordechai , israeli cabinet minister , al hamishmar , 14 april 1972 \) 14 neither jewish ethics jewish tradition terrorism means combat \( yitzhak shamir , , summer 1943 journal lehi , stern gang , translated israeli daily al hamishmar , 24 december 1987 14 domination jewish agriculture arab workers cancer body \( , israeli minister agriculture , ha'aretz , 13 december 1974 \) 15 one national home palestine , jewish one , equality partnership jews arabs \( david eder , president zionist federation great britain , 1931 , , comp , palestine papers 1917 1922 , seeds conflict , george , 1973 , p 135 \) 16 hope jewish palestine great jewish energy getting palestine \( dr chaim weizmann , first president state israel , excerpts historic statements , writings addresses , jewish agency palestine , 1952 , p 48 \) 17 single jewish village country built site arab village \( moshe dayan , ha'aretz , 4 april 1969 \) 18 people talk expelling 700 , 000 800 , 000 arabs event new war , instruments prepared \( , former chief israeli military intelligence , 1980 , inquiry , 8 december 1980 \) 19 arab leader would never make peace israel natural taken country \( david ben gurion , , jewish paradox , , 1978 , p 99 \) 20 palestine form portion europe asia , outpost civilization opposed barbarism \( dr theodor herzl , jewish state , london , 1896 , p 29 \) 21 deeply believe launching preventive war arab states without hesitation achieve two targets firstly , annihilation arab power secondly , expansion territory \( menachem begin , speech knesset , 12 october 1955 \) 22 last 100 years people process building country nation , expansion , getting additional jews additional settlements order expand borders let jew say process ended let jew say near end road \( moshe dayan , ma'ariv , 7 july 1968 \) 23 british left , jewish settlement , however remote , entered seized arabs , haganah , severe frequent attack , captured many arab positions liberated haifa , jaffa \( david ben gurion , rebirth destiny israel , philosophical library , 1954 , p 530 \) 24 months preceding arab invasion 1948 , five arab states conducting preparations , continued make arab territory conquest jaffa stands event first rate importance struggle hebrew independence early may , eve invasion five arab states \( menachem begin , revolt , nash , 1972 , p 348 \) 25 french could tunisia , said , jews would able palestine jewish , jewish money , jewish power jewish enthusiasm \( dr chaim weizmann , first president state israel , trial error , harper , 1949 , p 244 \) 26 think nasser wanted war two divisions sent sinai may 14 1967 would sufficient launch offensive israel knew knew \( yitzhak rabin , le monde , 29 february 1968 \) 27 pretend egyptian forces 1967 position threaten existence israel constitutes insult intelligence anyone capable analyzing sort situation , insult israeli army \( general res matti , ha'aretz , 19 march 1972 \) 28 broken strength arab legion bombarded , would wipe syria would fall would thus end war , would put paid egypt , behalf ancestors \( david ben gurion diaries , quoted michael bar , armed prophet , biography ben gurion , prentice hall , 1967 , p 139 \) 29 jews diaspora would like see us , reasons , heroes backs wall wish way change realities \( israeli general weizmann , le monde , 3 june 1972 \) 30 let us today fling accusations palestinian arab murderers argue hatred \? eight years sit refugee camps gaza , eyes , turn land villages forefathers lived generation settlers , without steel helmet cannon cannot plant tree build home let us shrink back see hatred filling lives hundreds thousands arabs , sit around us let us avert gaze , hand shall slip fate generation , choice life prepared armed , strong tough otherwise , sword slip first , life snuffed \( moshe dayan , roy kibbutz oz , 1956 , quoted uri , israel without zionists , collier books , macmillan , new york , 1971 , p 154 \)
center policy research cpr igc apc org subject labour 's enclaves policy important nf id n cdp 000 nf cdp uucp ! cpr may 11 05 21 00 1993 lines 247 center policy research cpr subject labour 's enclaves policy important labour 's enclaves policy occupied territories israel shahak publ middle east international , london , 30 4 93 difficult discover israel 's policy towards palestinians given time easily inferred facts ground information provided hebrew press one condition , though claptrap peace process must totally ignored , must israel 's official pronouncements , whole sole purpose distort reality concentrating facts , early apparent labour 's policies different shamir greater reliance deceit effective implementation likud 's policies accurately described ariel sharon article , accompanied map , last august sharon plan division west bank seven , gaza strip four , autonomous palestinian enclaves , israeli supervision total area enclaves amounted 15 per cent territories rest controlled israeli settlements highways built around enclaves entire area around jerusalem , outskirts ramallah boundaries bethlehem , already turned greater jerusalem arab inhabited localities amount small enclaves surrounded areas occupied israeli settlements reserved judging labour 's settlement policy , may assumed may content lesser number arab enclaves rather larger size sharon planned principle surrounding enclaves settlements dispersed along highways remains unchanged labour plans four enclaves west bank two samaria two judea \( e north south jerusalem respectively \) , two gaza strip regard greater jerusalem , labour 's policies hardly deviate sharon 's version likud policy israeli correspondents realised , labour policies version sharon 's last july , gideon wrote , barely months ago labour supported demand freeze construction beyond green line , specific decision freeze construction territories taken uzi wrote ha'aretz far judged basis internal political discussions jerusalem , rabin intends stick likud 's ways two biggest enclaves labour located samaria therefore belt settlements around trans samaria highway , designed separate enclaves , paramount importance according latest data , percentage israeli settlers entire west bank population \( apart east jerusalem \) mere 5 5 per cent area around trans samaria highway , corresponding figure almost 20 per cent , increasing steadily situation settlements block south jerusalem , designed sever enclave around bethlehem one around hebron , pretty much block connected west jerusalem highway project costly extreme , highway designed bypass bethlehem sequence long tunnels final decision build highway suspended rabin 's return us visit march subsequent decision renew construction seen us approval enclaves plan whole process enclaves plan implies deliberate steady palestinians well known israel ignored abroad concerned , including plo regard gaza strip , whole process best described ze'ev shiff ha'aretz march mentions seen pamphlet issued six years ago civil administration conditions gaza strip israeli rule 2000 analysis deserves quoted extensively continue steal strip 's water , even though quality year year continue steal strip 's tiny land resources , order found settlements , deliberately want make inhabitants despair , despair think nothing lose strip 's workers must spend travelling almost much time spend working military point view , kept control half strip 's area increasingly price manpower resources year moshe arens left defence ministry , heard saying withdraw strip come may argument israel sinks strip ever deeper deeper told proposed yitzhak shamir rejected yitzhak rabin rejects enormous state support qatif block settlers also cited proof enclaves plan implemented qatif block settlements , founded first rabin government 1974 77 , intended divide gaza strip two separate enclaves davar data showing vital israeli enterprise qatif block producing 40 per cent israeli tomatoes destined export , substantial proportion cut flowers also deals subsidies settlers receive , considerably augmented present government , housing units cheap present government spare efforts recruit new settlers block prospective settler get 95 per cent mortgage house top grant 18 , 000 shekels \( 6 , 500 \) data shows israel 's plans apply whether palestinians gaza strip allowed forbidden work israel economic motivations explained danny ha'aretz march economic viewpoint gaza could already sealed strip 's workers could barred entering israel even though accurate data hard come , indisputable last two years gazan workers arriving daily work israel markedly decreased , 80 , 000 40 , 000 today decrease due restrictions imposed entering israel gaza also due drastic demand gazan labour israel unemployment israel soaring construction apartments blocks virtually halted , workers gaza longer really needed gaza 's total dependence entire economy gaza strip totally dependent israel recent years gaza strip increase sub contracted work israeli factories , mostly thousands small workshops , employing average four workers , get raw materials unfinished products , together detailed working instructions , israeli factories attributes development fact average wage gaza strip merely 40 per cent west bank , turn stands half average wage israel besides gazan employer pay social security employees average wage gaza strip fifth israel , profits israeli factories even palestinian sub contractors must vast higher still gazan sub contractor provides labour performed home , family 's help livelihood tens thousands gazans depends sub contracted work many women children , paid ten shekels \( 3 50 \) day last 12 hours doubt profits exploiting cheap gazan labour one reasons stubborn opposition rabin israeli ministers withdrawal strip economic conditions gaza strip differ little created straight israel 's conquest 1967 respect , one deluded talk , nowadays fashionable , israeli gestures intended encourage economic development territories , israeli journalists point , permits opening new businesses depend prior approval shin bet behind professed goodwill desire solve problems , attitude good , willing something benefit natives , condition behave nicely , become rebellious , never anything interests , economic interests included , wrote michal davar february development sub contracted work gaza strip accords perfectly 's diagnosis also shows exactly economic controls work branches economy , set motion purposes freeing israeli production threat palestinian competition method simplicity soon israeli producer succeeds persuading government , even trade industry minister alone , military order issued prohibiting export given produce israel suffice , palestinian factory may denied licence operate bureaucratic obstacles may production among active agricultural one succeeded limiting exports gazan vegetables \( except grown settlers \) israel also europe , otherwise might compete israeli exports apartheid labour 's goal perpetuate apartheid regime territories goal shared us , otherwise could support labour government firmly view one reasons us feels happier supporting labour likud greater efficiency pursuing settlement drive point brought home ma'ariv , failure attributed likud 's showed peak yearly settlement growth occured term office national unity government \( e 1984 90 \) rabin served throughout defence minister likud 's reputation settling territories better labour false , attributable many tiny settlements without strategic value founded shamir symbolic reasons sum labour 's policy , unconditionally supported us differs likud primarily efficiency implemented according policy territories divided two parts major part ruled israel directly , minor part indirectly view , racist scheme doomed ultimately fail , horrifying price human suffering sooner true nature recognised , less suffering may cause
center policy research cpr igc apc org subject zionists reject non jews news nf id n cdp 000 nf cdp uucp ! cpr may 11 05 23 00 1993 lines 50 center policy research cpr subject zionists reject non jews news ethiopian jews quite jews israeli press published items ethiopian jews waiting camps immigration israel , dying starvation following excerpts interview former general director project development welfare ethiopian jews , friedman \( hadashot , 21 april 1993 \) , stated people dying , converts christianity published item dying jews viewing video tape filmed last week know actually converts \? jews tape , n't know say speaking experience say remained ethiopia christians know previously things published press interesting parties , connection reality interested parties \? ethiopian immigrants want christian relatives come recommend ethiopian children israel , parents rest relatives remain ethiopia \? ask job state israel bring 40 relatives stayed ethiopia well , answer would better solution , economically well , young man buy one way ticket ethiopia family publ front , alternative information center jerusalem , israel 28 april 1993
jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) subject news missed organization department redundancy department lines 44 article 1993may7 175730 12246 ncsu edu hernlem chess ncsu edu \( brad hernlem \) writes article optima cs arizona edu , bakken cs arizona edu \( dave bakken \) writes article bony1 bony com jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) writes ny times , sunday , may 2 , article somalia , reporter writes last year , iran quietly took four islands belonging united arab emirates deported people , hardly protest united states anyone know referring \? seem missed \( spiked , doubt \) something nyt sources days ongoing border , iranians kicked uae people briefly reported \( many moons ago \) n't recall reading public us comment strong protest probably would seen islands would abu musa , greater lesser , presume n't know fourth latter two islands belong iran according ny times , 4 islands belong united arab emirates could taken major row abu musa jointly administered iran uae dispute goes back early 1970 's britain evacuated island iran shah island historical ties iran british objection raised time understanding uae residents abu musa currently free travel island iran desiring diplomatic resolution dispute , , british , iranians uae refer occupied territory , mean territory dispute israel affairs \? jake livni jake bony1 bony com ten years , george bush american occupied new york replaced jimmy carter opinions employer opinions standard failed president
jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) subject israeli destruction mosque \( \) jerusalem organization department redundancy department lines 48 article cbnewsj cb att com avr cbnewsj cb att com \( adam v reed \) writes allegations jewish disrespect objects buildings religions one antisemitic stereotypes western culture , rumors church host probably caused pogroms blood libel 2 years ago , lot noise church old city jerusalem taken jewish group fact , building question dormitory belonged church physically connected church palestinean arab 99 years jewish group sub church owned building disapproved legal action started revoke sub lease media , however , made look like jewish stealing church property jerusalem force stereotypes culture create cognitive illusions stereotypes therefore claim appears stereotype treated decent people utmost suspicion unless documented damage already done press case surprising , course , many decent people regard press utmost suspicion claim cross posted news group documented , c j , reference given first time appears claim documented , regard whole episode disgusting shameful especially official failed provide proper temporary facilities evicted jordanians probably jewish , jew know known better appear referring moshe dayan know evicted jordanians provided something else \? fact , thread indicates squatters land received compensation loss , anyways ! woe jews feel recovering land taken force \( ethnic cleansing remaining jews \) disgusting shameful jake livni jake bony1 bony com ten years , george bush american occupied new york replaced jimmy carter opinions employer opinions standard failed president
arens isi edu \( yigal arens \) subject arrest adl case organization usc information sciences institute lines 105 distribution world nntp posting host grl isi edu los angeles times , saturday , may 8 , 1993 page figure adl spy case arrested f airport espionage former police officer taken custody upon arriving philippines , fled fbi interrogation warren , times staff writer san francisco former san francisco police officer fled philippines amid accusations confidential law enforcement information investigator anti defamation league arrested airport 11 felony charges , police said friday thomas j gerard abruptly left united states october fbi questioned activities , thursday night source philippines told investigators gerard returning home gerard , 50 , booked san francisco county jail early friday morning eight counts theft government documents one count computer theft , conspiracy convicted charges , gerard could face 16 years prison 40 , 000 fines bail initially set 250 , 000 police argued flight risk , later reduced 20 , 000 friend gerard trying post bail late friday afternoon , sheriff 's spokeswoman said gerard returned united missed wife child , lived sausalito , wanted day court , said police john willett , former boss one two arresting officers gerard , undercover agent central intelligence agency 1982 1985 , also feared cia kill , willett said interview times last month , gerard threatened disclose illegal cia support death squads central america indicted tried san francisco spying charges gerard central figure scandal intelligence network operated anti defamation league , prominent jewish civil rights organization investigators gerard illegally gave criminal histories roy bullock , san francisco art dealer said undercover adl intelligence operative 40 years investigators said found confidential police files bullock 's home computer contained entries 10 , 000 people 950 groups boxes apartment files also seized search warrants adl offices san francisco los angeles authorities disclosed contents gerard could reached comment friday , attorney , james , return telephone calls seeking comment interview times last month , however , gerard acknowledged snooping sharing information bullock , denied criminal wrongdoing bullock gerard also investigation selling intelligence south africa adl officials described bullock 550 week independent contractor vigorously denied knowledge illegal activity friday , adl lawyer said gerard 's arrest nothing adl , comment case arab american groups main target spying , according police applauded arrest pressed authorities pursue investigation urge investigators carry case forward publicly disclose full extent adl law enforcement involvement , said james , head arab american institute washington police , meanwhile , characterized gerard 's arrest first inquiry spying scandal unexpected breakthrough former police colleague gerard , inspector fred , visited gerard several weeks ago urged return home knew would n't want live island lam forever , n't think would happen quickly , willett said development really speeds timetable case 25 year career police force , gerard highly regarded officer known work department 's intelligence division last assignment gang task force fbi agents questioned gerard last fall , took early retirement fled remote jungle island , 300 miles south gerard arrested 8 40 p stepped philippines airlines flight traveling alone looked six month , police said surprised saw us standing , got shocked look face , willett said said , , i'm back ' yigal arens usc isi tv made ! arens isi edu
arens isi edu \( yigal arens \) subject lying torture organization usc information sciences institute lines 54 distribution world nntp posting host grl isi edu , april 9 , 1993 excerpt one \( reference general , shamir 's military secretary irrelevant excerpt \) mid '91 shabak found center another storm year half earlier , sheikh ali , 27 , member islamic jihad , died shabak installation gaza prison two shabak interrogators responsible death put trial september '91 supreme court rejected appeal sentenced 6 months prison far known , first time israel 's history shabak operatives sent prison supreme court unanimously rejected warning director shabak sentence detrimental effectiveness interrogators judges case barak , goldberg , matza realized , interrogators agreed talk deputy state attorney rachel sp \? placed charge investigating affair questioned directors shabak divisions investigated matter death gaza prison discovered torture , also culture lies , judge landau described report two years , still much existence nothing changed report classified seen ten people , among prime minister , people top judicial system judge landau director shabak claimed know , dealing single jail low ranking people system bit bullet accepted explanation one shabak 's high ranking officials transfered high position less high position culture lies referred shabak policy lying court denying claims tortured course interrogation landau commission sought correct problem legalizing list torture methods thus eliminating fear might released methods used extract confession fact need lie still persists would seem indicate shabak sticking approved torture methods yigal yigal arens usc isi tv made ! arens isi edu
adam endor uucp \( adam shostack \) subject israel apartheid state organization aiken computation lab , harvard university lines 38 article m06 cville srv wam umd edu aap wam umd edu \( alberto adolfo pinkas \) writes article 1993may10 pasteur berkeley edu adams bellini berkeley edu \( adam l schwartz \) writes article cville srv wam umd edu aap wam umd edu \( alberto adolfo pinkas \) writes i'm sure hope answer ca n't apply law return conversion , 've elected part jewish nation point converting another religion loose cultural identity , loose religious identification disagree converting another religion , certainly change cultural identity , lose part jewish moment converted , officially world consider part jewish nation , jewish nation consider member \? part nation defined culture religion actually , atheist , fact like converting non jewish terms religion , still considered part jewish nation , serious cultural difference renouncing jewish god accepting new one thou shall gods conversion violation , atheism might able wiggle around adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu budget big enough drugs sexual favors , sure would n't waste members congress john perry barlow
jaskew spam maths adelaide edu au \( joseph askew \) subject israel apartheid state \? quite distribution world organization statistics , pure applied mathematics , university adelaide lines 40 article early bird think com shaig think com \( shai guday \) writes article spam maths adelaide edu au , jaskew spam maths adelaide edu au \( joseph askew \) writes arabs cabinet look long took insignificant positions assigned ! based solely race political belief security jewish members party always welcome fellow arabs first , arab standing party , party , solely dependent upon amount political power wield effectively question individuals standing party puts arab cabinet post arab rejected position given jew party talking power racism would care deny happened several occasions labour \? past , effective votes forming single bloc knesset occasions done , parties took stands extremist , precluded forming coalition participating cabinet party individuals even belong nice peaceful zionist mainstream parties welcome arabs excluded security grounds excuse sure looks like racism arabs excluded cabinet , even things suggest , arabs unless course better reason \? happy listen good reason leftist jew less security risk leftist arab party look present cabinet joseph askew joseph askew , gauche proud autumn stillness , see pleiades , jaskew spam maths adelaide edu remote thorny deserts , fell grief disclaimer \? sue , see care north tents , sky must end somwhere , actually , rather like brenda beyond pale , river murmurs
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject baltic states realism 'virvir' drivel reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 171 article 1993may11 husc3 harvard edu harvard edu \( mikhail \) writes words behaves mutlu , would carry similar treatment \( especially oversized articles 90 scanned propagandist stuff easily available decent library \) typical 'virvir' drivel people think 're looney howling wires think things up' anyone else , must also believe aliens outer space come earth regularly abduct 'arromdians' asala sdpa arf medical experiments stronger evidence know \? american officer genocide 2 5 million muslim people armenians 1914 1920 , crook idiot like source world alive , personal story robert dunn crown publishers , inc , new york \( 1952 \) \( memoirs american officer witnessed armenian genocide 2 5 million muslim people \) p 361 \( seventh paragraph \) p 362 \( first paragraph \) 'the inside houses come look ' 'no , dammit ! stomach n't ' 'one turkish officer uniform must see ' trees mosque , open space 'i n't believe , said , followed nail door man pushed , spurred away , leaving check corpse thought , charge constant , teeth went inside place cool ashes , dark first , stone walls window rags mud floor around iron embers vented smoke roof beams black soot looked bare empty , inner room flies buzzed door swung shut behind saw came man 's body lying face , naked fifty years old left face rifle butt bashed eye one left slanted , tartars rather turks uniform gone , 'd proof , quickly went , mess slashed genitals p 363 \( first paragraph \) 'how many people lived \? ' 'oh , eight hundred ' see turk officers \? ' 'no , sir dawn tartar civilians mufti ' lieutenant , , small hours voice woke dro 's stood starlight officer anyone long furiously 'd never heard abruptly dro broke laughter , quick simple child 's cover sense guilt , thought , hoped somehow , despite boast , christian massacring horrible reverse would , armenian villagers poured miles around women plundered happily , like ravens picked carcass djul hauled every 's , last scrap food cloth , staggered away , packing pots , saddlebags , , even spinning wheels lot , dro , ' said back camp 'but must leave ' shook hands , captain said 'a , mon ' hours old scout plodded north across plains like lot 's wife looked back see smoke bathing , doubtless sack moslem villages line snow iran ' p 354 morning tea , dro officers spread map whole high region called karabakh deep tactics , spoke russian , got contempt allied zones distrust promises made tribal chiefs campaign shaped raids moslem villages p 358 three hours take , dro told 'd close three sides men foot shoot , use bayonets , said , rifle morale , dro put must keep moslems terror soldiers civilians \? asked difference , said dro armed , uniform women children \? fly others best may p 360 ridges circled wide , floors still hundreds feet , fog held , solid cotton flock lies , ' said dro , pointing men also attack sides ' , ee ! ' whistle lined rock edge bayonets clicked upon plunged , black followed staff , horde nose tail , bellies taking spur armenia action seemed like war , even though heard utica brass roar watched height , took ages djul show clear tsing machine gun fire took thumping batteries cattle , dogs , invisible , ate hunk cheese drank snow puddle mist last folded upward men shouted , first heard faintly came shrill wailing among cloud streaks rose darker smoke red house walls stone wattle , dry weeds roofs mosque stood clump trees , thick green crooked alleys fire , figures mounted foot ! ' shouted gunner others escape rocks , one twisted bronze shell nose , loaded , yanked breech cord , firing shots wasted , thought , afternoon looked vain fallen branch body shots white bursts shrapnel gullies drowned women 's cries length shooting got horse rode toward djul burned still little flame showed way steep tough , dense scrub finally flatter ground came suddenly , , smoldering houses across trampled wheat brothers arms leading animals , several calves lamb p 361 \( fourth paragraph \) corpses came next , first pretty child straight black hair , large eyes looked twelve years old lay stubble meal lay scattered sack 'd toting bayonet gone back , judged , blood around scant breasts one clot , small bullet wound , dress next boy ten less , rawhide jacket knee pants lay face path several huts one arm reached bowl 'd carried , upset upon dough steel neck , spine , , saw led around djul empty living till looked see beside dro 's german speaking colonel said tartars escaped dead p 358 stories armenian murdering turks czarist troops fled north hosts told duty keep tabs , turkish troop shifts , hidden arms , spies christian , red tartar coming spoke hell would break loose versailles put , threatened , six vilayets turkey control erevan armenia without armenians ! turks christian rule \? lips smacked irony droopy red moustache 's bloodshed smyrna bigger scale serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject arab leaders bosnia reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 79 article minerva cis yale edu pavlovic milan yale edu \( milan pavlovic \) writes really disagree beacon genocide apology self admitted exposed compulsive liar mouthpiece criminal nazi armenians asala sdpa arf terrorism revisionism triangle love eloquent one liners sticking original question imagine would like human impossible say \? could head n't screwed right , old one said \) crux argument \? difficult understand \? lack intelligence \? need go \? actually , would like get compilation one liners , could print show friends summer , see kind clowns exist chicago well , change fact period 1914 1920 , armenian government ordered , incited , assisted participated genocide 2 5 million muslim people race , religion national origin \? 1 \) armenians slaughter entire muslim population van 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 2 \) armenians slaughter 42 muslim population bitlis 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 3 \) armenians slaughter 31 muslim population erzurum 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 4 \) armenians slaughter 26 muslim population diyarbakir 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 5 \) armenians slaughter 16 muslim population 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 6 \) armenians slaughter 15 muslim population sivas 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 7 \) armenians slaughter entire muslim population x soviet armenia 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 8 \) 1 mccarthy , j , muslims minorities , population ottoman anatolia end empire , new york university press , new york , 1983 , pp 133 144 2 karpat , k , ottoman population , university wisconsin press , 1985 3 hovannisian , r g , armenia road independence , 1918 university california press \( berkeley los angeles \) , 1967 , pp 13 , 37 4 shaw , j , 'on armenian collaboration invading russian armies 1914 , history ottoman empire modern turkey \( volume ii reform , revolution republic rise modern turkey , 1808 1975 \) \( london , cambridge university press 1977 \) pp 315 316 5 gochnak \( armenian newspaper published united states \) , may 24 , 1915 source jorge blanco villalta , , ' , 1979 , pg 234 armenians refrain giving racial hatred committing acts cruelty massacres moslem population , encouraged party , mortal enemies turkey serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject says ! reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 131 article news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) writes right notice assumptions used bosnian serbs \( serbia \) bosnian muslims post quaint point , completely ignore blatant lies 've scenario genocide staged armenians 78 years ago eastern anatolia x soviet armenia reenacted time azerbaijan remarkable similarities plots , perpetrators , underdogs remember , article 25249 news service uci edu , blatantly lied still corrected goltz article published sunday times magazine march 1 , 1992 , guardian sunday section story filed agdam london 'll let rest net judge merits source 'the sunday times , ' 1 march 1992 \( british weekly , written thomas goltz , agdam , azerbaijan \) armenian soldiers massacre hundreds fleeing families violence outer republics former soviet union gained new impetus yesterday cold blooded slaughter hundreds women children war racked nagorno karabakh survivors reported armenian soldiers shot bayoneted 450 azeris , many women children , fleeing attack town hundreds , possibly thousands , missing feared dead attackers killed soldiers volunteers defending women children turned guns terrified refugees survivors later described happened 's real slaughter began , said , one three soldiers survive armenians shot shot came started carving people bayonets knives shooting , shooting , shooting , echoed , arrived agdam women children made way armenian lines said husband , , son law killed front daughter still missing one boy arrived agdam ear sliced survivors said 2000 others , fled separately , still missing terrain many could perish wounds cold late yesterday , 479 deaths registered morgue agdam 's morgue , 29 bodies buried cemetery seven corpses saw awaiting burial , two children three women , one shot chest point blank range agdam hospital scene carnage terror doctors said 140 patients escaped slaughter , bullet injuries deep stab wounds safe agdam friday night rockets fell city population 150 , 000 , destroying several buildings killing one person wait , inhumane ignore violence stories survivors karabag massacre 69 year old nine telling twin grandchildren cut pieces front eyes told wo n't kill babies die front eyes '' 72 year old huseyin turkish village khojalu town blown two hours killing children babies mercilessly said turks , must die '' 28 year old gulsum huseyin bayonetted 3 year old daughter stomach front eyes '' stories lies \? eye witnesses day dreaming \? stories forged turkish journalists region \? nonsense claim clear writings british journalists , two days quoted sunday times article british reported events karabag even turkish journalists pictures pictures people bayonetted , whose eyes gouged , ears cut even armenian radio could n't claim lies saying exaggeration means ' happened situation bad reported perhaps village khojalu town destroyed 4 hours , instead 2 gulsum huseyin 's 3 year old daughter bayonetted chest instead stomach massacre clearly seen dimensions effects massacre karabag environs cannot reduced word western , led french newspapers , ability nothing complicity massacre yesterday gave samples le figaro yesterday 's print news real events karabag printed french tv channels subject considered related karabag ''the necessity protecting armenians azeri attacks '' age living termed human rights age lots organizations united nations csce \( conference security cooperation europe \) , rules , designed fight human rights violations international reactions must made international cooperation support everybody every organization claiming civilized could serious human rights violation right live levels barbarity cruelty \? cooperation \? reactions \? intellectuals , journalists , writers , tv stations certain western countries france fast claim leadership human rights \? \? serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject greek authorities deny even existence turkish minority reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 133 article 1993may11 news uiowa edu mau herky cs uiowa edu \( mau napoleon \) writes thousand ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! yup yes thousand left today years turkey expect better , , take back , n't treaty exchange turkish greek minorities \( 1923 \) left greek minority turkiye , except thousand greeks istanbul turkiye longer obstacle ' although material basis greek policy longer visible , residue , seems unite , greeks came asia minor , greeks originally islands sea live numerous aegean islands residue also recognizable contemporary greek government far greek turkish wars find funny informed turk like forgot mention balkan wars 1912 1923 chance greece lost every war conducted solely greece turkiye morea 1821 , 1897 98 , anatolia 1922 ottoman empire lost world war , british landed 1919 200 , 000 greek army izmir exterminate people turkiye suffering severe case amnesia \? tired defeated turks rose , formed national force leadership mustafa kemal , august 30 , 1922 annihilated bulk greek army turkiye longer obstacle ' besides , greece lost every war conducted solely greece turkiye morea 1821 , 1897 98 , anatolia 1922 especially 1922 greek defeat , referred 'the tragedy greeks , effects greek mind behaviour find curious historian like forgot wars demolished ottoman empire 1912 1913 love people n't read spout myths evidence greeks 1912 1913 \? guess , busy greek efforts jewish population salonica culminated 1912 1913 jews survived assaults southeastern europe fled particularly salonica , whose jewish population increased substantially result , 28 , 000 1876 90 , 000 , half total population , though even increased persecution local greeks led many jews flee elsewhere ottoman empire , particularly great port izmir despite pressure ottomans foreign jews alike , ritual murders assaults christians jews went greek efforts jewish population salonica culminated 1912 1913 , following greek conquest salonica first balkan war , many jews , either killed leaving though greece obligated post world war treaties allow jews minorities use languages education practice religions without , law issued 1923 inhabitants working sunday , stimulating new jewish exodus intended 1932 1934 series anti semitic riots salonica , quarter , remaining jews lived , burned ground followed regulations requiring use greek prohibiting hebrew judea spanish jewish schools start made also land principal jewish cemetery salonica use new university order derive jews 47 killing driving large numbers jews , greeks left substantial greek majority city first time , starting salonica jewry way final nazis occupation greece starting 1941 salonica izmir course places refuge jewish refugees entering empire last century existence istanbul , edirne , parts anatolia received thousands jews refugees received helped government sultan thousands muslims accompanied flight similar persecutions wherever balkan christian states gained independence expanded russian conquest caucasus starting late eighteenth century , particularly war , combined independence movements southeastern europe caused much suffering flight among jews caused thousands helpless , ill , poverty stricken muslim refugees accompany ever shrinking boundaries ottoman empire , istanbul government struggling vainly house feed best could 1850 many 800 , 000 tatars , , muslims north east black sea entered anatolia alone , many 200 , 000 came next twenty years , 474 , 389 refugees entered 1876 1877 result ottoman wars russia balkan states , equal number gaining refuge european portions empire 47 robert , structure de la de la fin du , rh 534 \( 1980 \) , 391 92 vii , 762 joseph \( salonica \) aiu \( paris \) 2 , 12 may 1903 \( aiu archives c 43 \) 2775 , 10 january 1900 \( aiu archives c 41 \) , describing daily battles jewish greek children streets salonica , director ecole moise allatini , salonica , aiu \( paris \) , , 1 december 1909 \( aiu archives c 48 \) , describing greek attacks jews , jewish shops manufacturers , greek press campaigns leading blood libel attacks cohen , ecole moise allatini , salonica , aiu \( paris \) , 4 , 4 december 1912 \( aiu archives c 49 \) describes week terror followed greek army occupation salonica 1912 , soldiers jewish quarters destroying jewish synagogues , accompanied described local greek population local jews muslims , president aiu salonica , reported aiu \( paris \) , 3 , 25 july 1913 \( aiu archives c 51 \) 'it irregulars \( \) massacred , pillaged burned army soldiers , chief police , high civil officials also took active part horrors ' , moise \( salonica \) aiu \( paris \) \( 20 august 1913 \) \( aiu archives c 51 \) describes greek pillage jewish quarter night 18 19 august 1913 \( aiu alliance israelite universelle , paris \) serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject genocide 204 , 000 azeris armenians reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 118 article psuvm psu edu boris psuvm psu edu writes maybe following example helps understandable views gic alone nevertheless independent \? sorry , following western scholars forced disagree first world war ensuing years 1914 1920 , armenians premeditated systematic genocide , tried complete centuries old policy annihilation turks kurds savagely murdering 2 5 million muslims deporting rest 1 , 000 year homeland attempt genocide justly regarded first instance genocide 20th century acted upon entire people event incontrovertibly proven historians , government international political leaders , u ambassador mark bristol , william langer , ambassador layard , james barton , stanford shaw , arthur chester , john dewey , robert dunn , papazian , nalbandian , ohanus appressian , jorge blanco villalta , general nikolayef , general bolkovitinof , general prjevalski , general odiselidze , meguerditche , kazimir , motayef , twerdokhlebof , general hamelin , rawlinson , avetis aharonian , dr stephan eshnanie , varandian , general bronsart , arfa , dr hamlin , boghos nubar , sarkis atamian , katchaznouni , rachel bortnick , halide edip , mccarthy , w b allen , paul muratoff many others j c hurewitz , professor government emeritus , former director middle east institute \( 1971 1984 \) , columbia university bernard lewis , cleveland e dodge professor near eastern history , princeton university halil inalcik , university professor ottoman history member american academy arts sciences , university chicago peter golden , professor history , rutgers university , newark stanford shaw , professor history , university california los angeles thomas naff , professor history director , middle east research institute , university pennsylvania ronald jennings , associate professor history asian studies , university illinois howard reed , professor history , university connecticut dankwart rustow , distinguished university professor political science , city university graduate school , new york john woods , associate professor middle eastern history , university chicago john masson smith , jr , professor history , university california berkeley alan fisher , professor history , michigan state university avigdor levy , professor history , brandeis university andreas g e bodrogligetti , professor history , university california los angeles kathleen burrill , associate professor turkish studies , columbia university roderic davison , professor history , george washington university walter denny , professor history , university massachusetts caesar farah , professor history , university minnesota tom goodrich , professor history , indiana university pennsylvania tibor halasi kun , professor emeritus turkish studies , columbia university justin mccarthy , professor history , university louisville jon mandaville , professor history , portland state university \( oregon \) robert olson , professor history , university kentucky madeline zilfi , professor history , university maryland james stewart robinson , professor turkish studies , university michigan list goes genocide azeri people armenians source channel 4 news 19 00 , monday 2 march 1992 2 french journalists seen 32 corpses men , women children civilian clothes many shot dead heads close less 1 meter source morning news 07 37 , tuesday 3 march 1992 bbc reporter live line claimed saw 100 bodies azeri men , women children well baby shot dead heads short distance source morning news 08 12 , tuesday 3 march 1992 disturbing picture shown many civilian corpses picked mountain reporter said , cameraman western journalists seen 100 corpses , men , women , children , massacred armenians shot dead heads close 1 meter picture also shown nearly ten bodies \( mainly women children \) shot dead heads azerbaijan claimed 1000 civilians massacred armenian forces serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject eyewitnesses 'armenian genocide 2 5 million reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 226 article zeus tamu edu zeus tamu edu \( stephanie tsai \) writes serdar argic , , please stop posting reposting messages regarding armenian actions call , see hate messages rather facts every civilization old turkish armenian civilizations guilty barbaric acts , longer time place espouse hatred good \? read lot newsgroups gain hate messages rather facts \? sorry , argument falls flat face references eminent authors field middle eastern history eyewitnesses armenian genocide 2 5 million muslims 1 armenian revolutionary movement louise nalbandian , university california press , berkeley , los angeles , 1975 2 diplomacy imperialism 1890 1902 william lenger , professor history , harward university , boston , alfred knopt , new york , 1951 3 turkey europe sir charles elliot , edward arnold , london , 1900 4 chatnam house version middle eastern studies elie kedouri , praeger publishers , new york , washington , 1972 5 rising crescent ernest jackh , farrar reinhart , inc , new york toronto , 1944 6 spiritual political evolutions islam felix valyi , mogan , paul , trench truebner co , london , 1925 7 struggle power moslem asia e alexander powell , century co , new york , london , 1924 8 struggle transcaucasia feruz kazemzadeh , yale university press , new , conn , 1951 9 history ottoman empire modern turkey \( 2 volumes \) stanford j shaw , cambridge university press , cambridge , new york , melbourne , 1977 10 western question greece turkey arnold j toynbee , constable co , ltd , london , bombay sydney , 1922 11 caliph 's last heritage sir mark sykes , macmillan co , london , 1915 12 men like leonard hartill , bobbs co , indianapolis , 1928 13 adventures near east , 1918 22 rawlinson , dodd , meade co , 1925 14 world alive , personal story robert dunn , crown publishers , inc , new york , 1952 15 sardarapat serves lousanne avetis aharonian , armenian review magazine , volume 15 \( fall 1962 \) 17 \( spring 1964 \) 16 armenia road independence richard g hovanessian , university california press , berkeley , california , 1967 17 rebirth turkey clair price , thomas seltzer , new york , 1923 18 caucasian battlefields w b allen paul muratoff , cambridge , 1953 19 partition turkey harry n howard , h fertig , new york , 1966 20 king crane commission harry n howard , beirut , 1963 21 united states policy partition turkey laurence evans , john hopkins university press , baltimore , 1965 22 british documents related turkish war independence gothard jaeschke 1 neside kerem demir , bir sehid anasina tarihin soyledikleri turkiye'nin ermeni meselesi , hulbe basim yayin , ankara , 1982 \( ingilizce birinci baski 1980 , armenian question turkey \) 2 veysel eroglu , ermeni mezalimi , sebil yayinevi , istanbul , 1978 3 alper gazigiray , osmanlilardan gunumuze kadar vesikalarla ermeni teroru'nun kaynaklari , gozen kitabevi , istanbul , 1982 4 dr kirzioglu fahrettin , kars ili cevresinde ermeni mezalimi , kardes matbaasi , ankara , 1970 c basbakanlik osmanli arsivi , babiali , istanbul \) yildiz esas evraki b \) yildiz perakende c \) irade defterleri \) cemaat gayr muslime defterleri e \) meclisi vukela mazbatalari f \) dahiliye nezareti , kalem mahsus dosyalari g \) dahiliye nezareti , sifre defterleri h \) babiali evrak odasi siyasi kartonlar \) babiali evrak odasi muhimme kartonlari c disisleri bakanligi , hazine evrak , defterdarlik \) harb umumi b \) muteferrik kartonlar british archives \) parliamentary papers \( hansard \) commons lords b \) foreign office confidential print various collections c \) foreign office 424 239 253 turkey correspondence annual reports \) foreign office 608 e \) foreign office 371 , political intelligence general correspondence f \) foreign office 800 240 , ryan papers g \) foreign office 800 151 , curzon papers h \) foreign office 839 eastern conference lausanne 53 files india office records library , blackfriars road , london \) l political security 10 851 855 \( five boxes \) , turkey treaty peace 1918 1923 b \) l p 10 1031 , near east turkey greece lausanne conference , 1921 1923 c \) l p 11 154 \) l p 11 1031 french archives archives du ministere des affaires entrangeres , quai d'orsay , paris \) documents diplomatiques affaires armeniens 1895 1914 collections b \) guerre 1914 1918 turquie legion d'orient c \) levant , 1918 1929 armenie official publications , published documents , diplomatic correspondence , agreements , minutes others turkey \( ottoman empire republic turkey \) akarli , e \( ed \) belgelerle tanzimat , \( istanbul , 1978 \) \( gn kur , atase \) askeri tarih belgeleri dergisi , v xxxi \( 81 \) , \( dec 1982 \) askeri tarih belgeleri dergisi , v xxxii \( 83 \) , \( dec 1983 \) hocaoglu , \( ed \) ittihad anasir osmaniye heyeti nizamnamesi , \( istanbul , 1912 \) meray , l \( trans ed \) lozan baris konferansi tutanaklar belgeler , \( ankara , 1978 \) , 2 vols meray , l olcay \( ed \) osmanli imparatorlugu'nun cokus belgeleri mondros birakismasi , sevr andlasmasi , ilgili belgeler , \( ankara , 1977 \) \( osmanli devleti , dahiliye nezareti \) aspirations et agissements revolutionnaires des comites armeniens avant et apres la proclamation de la constitution ottomane , \( istanbul , 1917 \) ermeni komitelerinin amal hareket ihtilaliyesi ilan mesrutiyetten evvel sonra , \( istanbul , 1916 \) idare umumiye vilayet kanunu , \( istanbul , 1913 \) muharrerat umumiye mecmuasi , v \( istanbul , 1914 \) muharrerat umumiye mecmuasi , v ii \( istanbul , 1915 \) muharrerat umumiye mecmuasi , v iii \( istanbul , 1916 \) muharrerat umumiye mecmuasi , v iv \( istanbul , 1917 \) \( osmanli devleti , hariciye nezareti \) imtiyazat ecnebiyye'nin lagvindan dolayi memurine teblig olunacak talimatname , \( istanbul , 1915 \) \( osmanli devleti , harbiye nezareti \) islam ahalinin ducar olduklari mezalim hakkinda vesaike mustenid malumat , \( istanbul , 1919 \) \( iv ordu \) aliye divan harbi orfisinde tedkik olunan mesele yi siyasiye hakkinda izahat , \( istanbul , 1916 \) turkozu , h k \( ed \) osmanli sovyet belgeleriyle ermeni mezalimi , \( ankara , 1982 \) turkiye buyuk millet meclisi gizli celse zabitlari , \( ankara , 1985 \) , 4 vols russia adamof , e e \( ed \) sovyet devlet arsivi belgeleriyle anadolu'nun taksimi plani , \( tran h rahmi , ed h mutlucag \) , \( istanbul , 1972 \) altinay , r iki komite iki kital , \( istanbul , 1919 \) kafkas yollarinda hatiralar tahassusler , \( istanbul , 1919 \) turkiye 'de katolik propagandasi , turk tarihi encumeni mecmuasi , v xiv 82 5 \( sept 1924 \) asaf muammer harb mesulleri , \( istanbul , 1918 \) akboy , c birinci dunya harbinde turk harbi , v osmanli imparatorlugu'nun siyasi askeri hazirliklari harbe girisi , \( gn kur , ankara , 1970 \) akgun , general harbord'un anadolu gezisi \( ermeni meselesi'ne dair \) raporu kurtulus savasi baslangicinda , \( istanbul , 1981 \) akin , turk devrim tarihi , \( istanbul , 1983 \) aksin , jon turkler ittihad terakki , \( istanbul , 1976 \) basar , z \( ed \) ermenilerden gorduklerimiz , \( ankara , 1974 \) ermeniler hakkinda makaleler derlemeler , \( ankara , 1978 \) belen , f birinci dunya harbinde turk harbi , \( ankara , 1964 \) deliorman , turklere karsi ermeni komitecileri , \( istanbul , 1980 \) ege , n n \( ed \) prens sabahaddin hayati ilmi mudafaalari , \( istanbul , 1977 \) ercikan , ermenilerin bizans osmanli imparatorluklarindaki rolleri , \( ankara , 1949 \) gurun , k 'ermeni sorunu yahut bir sorun nasil yaratilir \? ' , turk tarihinde ermeniler sempozyumu , \( izmir , 1983 \) hocaoglu , arsiv vesikalariyla tarihte ermeni mezalimi ermeniler , \( istanbul , 1976 \) karal , e osmanli tarihi , v v \( 1983 , 4th ed \) v vi \( 1976 , 2nd ed \) v vii \( 1977 , 2nd ed \) v viii \( 1983 , 2nd ed \) ankara kurat , osmanli imparatorlugu'nun paylasilmasi , \( ankara , 1976 \) orel , yuca ermenilerce talat pasa'ya atfedilen telgraflarin icyuzu , \( ankara , 1983 \) also english translation ahmad , f young turks committee union progress turkish politics , \( oxford , 1969 \) serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
pgf5 cunixb cc columbia edu \( peter garfiel freeman \) subject zionist leaders' frank statements nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply pgf5 cunixb cc columbia edu \( peter garfiel freeman \) organization columbia university lines 165 article igc apc org center policy research cpr igc apc org writes center policy research cpr subject zionist leaders' frank statements following quotations zionist leaders appear numerous scholarly works dealing palestine question urge access original sources , verify authenticity source post finding , adhering truth whatever thanks elias davidsson quotations zionist leaders 1 thing palestinians \( golda meir , prime minister israel , london sunday times , 15 june 1969 \) certainly never called palestinians 3 settled land , arabs able around like cockroaches bottle \( raphael , israeli chief staff , new york times , 14 april 1983 \) coming soldier ca n't surprise charge , 's reason gets votes every year elect squeaky clean , corruption 4 palestinians beasts walking two legs \( menachem begin , prime minister israel speech knesset , quoted , beasts , new statesman , 25 june 1982 \) i'm ignorant 's new statesman \? 5 process palestinians removal poor must carried \( dr theodor herzl , complete diaries , herzl press , 1960 , , p 88 \) oh , jews ! learn , anti semite iceland 6 must clear room people together country solution palestine without arabs way transfer arabs neighboring countries , transfer one village , one tribe , left \( joseph weitz , jewish national fund , administrator responsible zionist colonization davar , 29 september 1967 \) let 's face , 1967 , view \? 7 shall try spirit population palestinians across border procuring employment transit countries , denying employment country \( theodor herzl , complete diaries , herzl press , 1960 , , p 88 \) could mean anyone , big guy grow hate brackets 8 zionists looked means cause tens thousands arabs remained galilee flee gathered jewish , contact arabs different villages asked ears arabs great jewish reinforcement arrived galilee going burn villages suggest arabs , friends , escape still time tactic reached goal wide areas cleaned \( alon , ha palmach , hebrew , ii p 268 , quoted , conquest , ips , 1971 \) gave advance warning like plo , eh \? 10 jews must expel arabs take place \( david ben gurion , 1937 , quoted , ben gurion palestine arabs , oxford university press , 1985 , p 89 \) yeah , yeah brackets picky \? 11 must everything ensure palestinian refugees never return \( david ben gurion , diary , 19 july 1948 , quoted michael bar , ben gurion armed prophet , prentice hall , 1967 , p 157 \) bracket man 12 country mostly empty desert , islands arab settlement \( peres , minister defense , quoted david 's sling arming israel , nicholson , 1970 , p 249 \) truth , elias \? 13 story danger extermination jews blown justify annexation new arab territories \( mordechai , israeli cabinet minister , al hamishmar , 14 april 1972 \) holocaust never happened , eh elias \? 14 neither jewish ethics jewish tradition terrorism means combat \( yitzhak shamir , , summer 1943 journal lehi , stern gang , translated israeli daily al hamishmar , 24 december 1987 lehi always warned advance plo , buddy boy 14 domination jewish agriculture arab workers cancer body \( , israeli minister agriculture , ha'aretz , 13 december 1974 \) true ! jews unemployed \? say america , jerky 15 one national home palestine , jewish one , equality partnership jews arabs \( david eder , president zionist federation great britain , 1931 , , comp , palestine papers 1917 1922 , seeds conflict , george , 1973 , p 135 \) firmly believe today 16 hope jewish palestine great jewish energy getting palestine \( dr chaim weizmann , first president state israel , excerpts historic statements , writings addresses , jewish agency palestine , 1952 , p 48 \) n't understand metaphor , quotes lead nowhere doubt actuality , guarantee compiled neo nazi group love pseudo intellectual approach makes sound even dumber conclusions amim peace , pete
anwar mohammed cs cmu edu subject news missed organization carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 276 optima cs arizona edu nntp posting host po4 andrew cmu edu reply optima cs arizona edu articles topic rtw 12 23 gulf arabs demand iran withdrawal islands \( eds updates end summit details , quotes \) abu , dec 23 , reuter gulf arab states , emerging summit restored unity almost three months crisis , piled pressure iran wednesday reverse virtual annexation strategic gulf island issued statement three day gulf cooperation council summit saying iran show proof good intentions measures rocked gulf stability security leaders avoided anti iranian rhetoric recent statements egypt , engineered last minute settlement border row saudi arabia qatar allowed members attend summit egypt said fears iranian intentions region tehran 's alleged encouragement moslem fundamentalist unrest largely behind president mubarak 's gcc statement stressed developing relations gulf arab states iran linked confidence measures iran might take line commitment principle good respect territorial integrity region 's states denounced iran 's measures island abu musa , shares united arab emirates , continued occupation greater lesser islands iran earlier year extended control abu musa beyond small garrison established 1971 agreement uae since rescinded orders expelling foreigners worked island uae government diplomats say continues exercise authority whole island , uae virtual annexation occupied former shah iran 1971 uae since abu musa crisis erupted insisted returned part general settlement gcc leaders called u n maintain sanctions iraq fully implementing security council resolutions following 1990 invasion kuwait endorsed damascus declaration , pact signed egypt syria troops took part u led alliance drove iraqi troops kuwait delegates said leaders unable agree details fund announced would create last summit kuwait last year would helped egypt 's syria 's economic development programme said leaders could agree breakdown contributions state although total amount scaled 6 billion 10 billion agreed last year fact leaders gcc states saudi arabia , bahrain , kuwait , oman qatar attended summit seen major achievement although unity maintained outside help worried moment slow progress conservative rulers discussions future security structure region boasts bulk global oil gas reserves leaders unable choose two proposals one put forward summit committee headed oman 's sultan create 100 , 000 man rapid deployment force could rush defend member external aggression , iraq 's invasion kuwait another saudi supported plan expand existing 10 , 000 man peninsula shield force far played largely symbolic role commanded saudi general little made plans common market although summit called concrete proposals submitted next year 's summit due held saudi arabia next december reuter ya rtw 12 23 gulf leaders end summit abu , dec 23 , reuter gulf arab states ended three day annual summit wednesday appeal iran end occupation three strategic gulf islands condition restoring friendly ties across gulf joint statement issued summit , marked relief settlement row two gulf cooperation council members , also called continued u n sanctions iraq said baghdad failed implement key security council decisions following expulsion troops kuwait early last year summit broke new ground steps achieve gulf common market , called officials present plan common external six members next summit held saudi arabia december 1993 statement stressed developing relations gulf arab states iran linked confidence measures iran might take line commitment principle good respect territorial integrity region 's states denounced iran 's measures island abu musa , shares united arab emirates , continued occupation smaller islands , greater lesser expressed deep regret extreme concern unjustified iranian measures contradict proclaimed wish develop relations called iran rescind measures end occupation said shaking peace stability area iran earlier year extended control abu musa beyond small garrison established 1971 agreement uae since rescinded orders expelling foreigners worked island uae government diplomats region say security forces continue exercise authority whole island uae seen virtual annexation occupied former shah iran 1971 uae since abu musa crisis erupted insisted returned part general settlement reuter ya rtw 12 26 1441 iran hints ready go war islands \( eds updates snsc statement \) nicosia , dec 26 , reuter iran told gulf arab neighbours saturday ready defend militarily three disputed islands , reminding eight year war iraq eight year defence \( 1980 88 iran iraq war \) proved world brave nation never hesitate defend sovereignty safeguard territorial integrity iran , iran 's supreme national security council \( snsc \) said meeting heads six nation gulf cooperation council voiced full support wednesday united arab emirates \( uae \) dispute iran gulf islands abu musa , greater lesser move triggered strong iranian criticism warnings besides uae , gcc also groups bahrain , kuwait , oman , qatar saudi arabia iranian president , snsc 's meeting saturday , said friday prayer sermon tehran university iran surely stronger likes reach islands one cross sea blood snsc , quoted official iranian news agency received cyprus , also criticised gcc described support uae irresponsible country ever able even inch iranian soil , said snsc earlier saturday , english language tehran times , believed close foreign ministry , said uae aware iran 's self restraint certain limits dismissed uae claim islands unfounded said 1971 agreement share abu musa uae still applied idea abu officials tehran would always refrain responding blows inflicted childish , tehran times said said newspaper commenting gcc statement urged iran reverse says annexation abu musa island pull two islands iran says islands near entrance gulf historically belonged dispute flared year iran tightened control abu musa reuter af rtw 12 28 tehran paper wants iran revive claim bahrain tehran , dec 28 , reuter radical iranian newspapers , angered gulf arab claims three disputed islands , hitting back demands tehran revive claim bahrain consider improving ties iraq president senior officials strongly condemned statement last week leaders gulf cooperation council \( gcc \) backing united arab emirates \( uae \) dispute iran gulf islands newspapers salam demanded tehran go resolve defend sovereignty islands abu musa , greater lesser clear sheikh bahrain joined others , said gcc groups bahrain , kuwait , oman , qatar , saudi arabia uae historical records criterion , sheikh bahrain go business rule iranian people bahrain , belonged iran 1970 , established , paper said fitting foreign ministry raise question iran 's sovereignty bahrain start serious effective drive end separation bahrain iran , added late shah iran iran 's claim bahrain 1970 , year island became independent state iranian leaders since 1979 islamic revolution carefully avoided raising bahrain issue although occasionally brought press periods tension conservative arab states across gulf salam newspaper said gcc stand showed policy pro western gulf arab rulers matter much smile southern coast persian gulf , united states west speak last word , said \( \) nobody , salam said , adding iran revise policy towards neighbours , especially former war enemy iraq disregarding logical potential expanding ties iraq going along saudi backed trends among iraqi opposition played role formation current situation , paper said ties iran iraq , fought war 1980 1988 , improved briefly iraq invaded kuwait 1990 tehran , denounced invasion remained neutral ensuing war , called president saddam hussein 's overthrow suppressed shi'ite moslem revolt swept southern iraq 1991 defeat kuwait reuter mz
adam endor uucp \( adam shostack \) subject israel apartheid state \? organization aiken computation lab , harvard university lines 47 article 2703 spam maths adelaide edu au jaskew spam maths adelaide edu au \( joseph askew \) writes article early bird think com shaig think com \( shai guday \) writes article spam maths adelaide edu au , jaskew spam maths adelaide edu au \( joseph askew \) writes arabs cabinet look long took insignificant positions assigned ! based solely race political belief security jewish members party always welcome fellow arabs first , arab standing party , party , solely dependent upon amount political power wield effectively question individuals standing party puts arab cabinet post arab rejected position given jew party talking power racism necessarily shai points , political appointments based power also based favors owed , coalition building , deal making may racist element , think much fair attribute old boy nature politics , 'll freely admit old boy system racist sexist effects , n't think purpose , whether us , israel , elsewhere past , effective votes forming single bloc knesset occasions done , parties took stands extremist , precluded forming coalition participating cabinet party individuals even belong nice peaceful zionist mainstream parties welcome arabs excluded security grounds excuse sure looks like racism , miss old boy nature politics , existance back room deals individuals , arabs may well connected jew gets job n't like aspect politics , understand exists adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu budget big enough drugs sexual favors , sure would n't waste members congress john perry barlow
aa824 cleveland freenet edu \( mark ira kaufman \) subject fraud elias davidsson organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 263 nntp posting host thor ins cwru edu elias davidsson writes ed following quotations zionist leaders appear ed numerous scholarly works dealing palestine question urge ed access original sources , verify authenticity ed source post finding , adhering truth whatever responsibility posting quotes context phony 'research center' source , context , agenda ridden , propaganda ever seen n't believe , folks \? let 's take little stroll elias davidsson 's contributions understanding middle east ed quotations zionist leaders ed 1 thing palestinians ed \( golda meir , prime minister israel , london sunday ed times , 15 june 1969 \) suggest meant \? think meant palestinians n't exist \? actually mean people self identify , ' appear distinct ethnic group eyes golda meir \? ed 2 , however , difficulty zionist ed dares avert eyes , though rarely likes face ed palestine proper already inhabitants ed \( israel , voice jerusalem , london 1920 , ed p 88 \) written , seventy three years ago , people region jews jews jew rabid bigot ever called israel jews true true ed palestinians beasts walking two legs ed \( menachem begin , prime minister israel speech ed knesset , ed quoted , beasts , new ed statesman , 25 june 1982 \) since inserted words 'the palestinians cannot know begin talking someone wants importance absurd pseudo organizational name like 'center policy research , ' honest person ed process palestinians ed removal poor must carried ed ed \( dr theodor herzl , complete diaries , herzl press , ed 1960 , , p 88 \) herzl died eighty nine years ago suggesting stated israel 's policy today \? ever seen israel even entertain policy exclude non jews , let alone actually try remove non jews israel \? actually believe quote anything israel 's non jewish citizenry today , idiot realize israel intention removing non jewish israelis , nothing common liar one time give benefit doubt , assume stupid ed shall try spirit population ed palestinians across border procuring employment ed transit countries , denying ed employment country ed \( theodor herzl , complete diaries , herzl press , 1960 , ed , p 88 \) quote man gone almost century within context modern day israel thomas jefferson owned slaves fact define united states today \? ed jews must expel arabs take place ed \( david ben gurion , 1937 , quoted , ben ed gurion palestine arabs , oxford university press , ed 1985 , p 89 \) say , ' add \? also statement ten years israel became state bearing israel ed must everything ensure ed palestinian refugees never return ed \( david ben gurion , diary , 19 july 1948 , quoted ed michael bar , ben gurion armed prophet , ed prentice hall , 1967 , p 157 \) added words 'the palestinian refugees ' , misleading people believing ben gurion , expressing hope people fled lands , encouragement people king abdullah , mufti jerusalem , people abandoning homes refering arabs jews war ed country mostly empty desert , ed islands arab settlement ed \( peres , minister defense , quoted david 's ed sling arming israel , nicholson , ed 1970 , p 249 \) time rebirth israel certainly true , especially compared israel accomplished short decades ed story danger extermination ed jews blown justify annexation ed new arab territories ed \( mordechai , israeli cabinet minister , al ed hamishmar , 14 april 1972 \) since israel annexed even one millimeter territory twenty six years , quote irrelevant ed neither jewish ethics jewish tradition ed terrorism means combat ed \( yitzhak shamir , , summer 1943 journal ed lehi , stern gang , translated israeli daily ed al hamishmar , 24 december 1987 , quoting man fighting promised time ancient biblical , time declaration , short years back thought described terrorism jews n't include slaughtering olympic athletes , brutally murdering innocent , attacking school buses , murdering another human sole reason arab ed domination jewish agriculture arab ed workers cancer body ed \( , israeli minister agriculture , ha'aretz , 13 ed december 1974 \) serious concerns work force consisted people outside israel wise concerned work force consisting foreigners good situation country ed one national home palestine , ed jewish one , equality partnership ed jews arabs ed \( david eder , president zionist ed federation great britain , 1931 , ed , comp , palestine papers 1917 1922 , ed seeds conflict , george , 1973 , p 135 \) also meaning country formed years statement made obviously times change israel today believe peace talks make quote irrelevant ed single jewish village country ed built site arab village ed \( moshe dayan , ha'aretz , 4 april 1969 \) completely false ed people talk expelling 700 , 000 800 , 000 ed arabs event new war , instruments ed prepared ed \( , former chief israeli military ed intelligence , 1980 , inquiry , 8 december 1980 \) expelled \? israel \? occupied territories \? new jersey \? way read get idea earth talking obviously ed palestine form portion ed europe asia , outpost civilization ed opposed barbarism ed \( dr theodor herzl , jewish state , london , 1896 , p ed 29 \) interesting notion considering written nearly century ago , quite visionary ed deeply believe launching preventive war ed arab states without hesitation ed achieve two targets firstly , ed annihilation arab power secondly , expansion ed territory ed \( menachem begin , speech knesset , 12 october ed 1955 \) said nearly forty years ago begin dead obvious anybody israel expansionist , would annexed occupied territories right captured israel would negotiating get rid ed last 100 years people ed process building country nation , ed expansion , getting additional jews additional ed settlements order expand borders let ed jew say process ended let jew say ed near end road ed \( moshe dayan , ma'ariv , 7 july 1968 \) 's dead , since israel annexed land since 1967 , wasting bandwidth misleading quotes sync reality israel , nothing make look like fanatic desperate sway people , misleading ed let us today fling accusations palestinian ed arab murderers argue ed hatred \? eight years sit ed refugee camps gaza , eyes , ed turn land villages ed forefathers lived ed generation settlers , without steel helmet ed cannon cannot plant tree build home let ed us shrink back see hatred ed filling lives hundreds thousands arabs , ed sit around us let us avert gaze , ed hand shall slip fate generation , ed choice life prepared armed , strong ed tough otherwise , sword slip ed first , life snuffed ed \( moshe dayan , roy kibbutz ed oz , 1956 , quoted uri , israel without zionists , collier books , macmillan , new york , 1971 , p 154 \) interesting quote 's true never lose sight plight people also recognize quote preceded disgusting wave arab terrorism violence directed innocent people , began 1972 massacre israeli athletes munich , continues day ability obscure equal desire , group would problem easily recognized fanatic , whose stream misleading , partial , context quotes totally burden truth
eggertj moses mit edu \( jim eggert x6127 g41 \) subject israeli destruction mosque \( \) jerusalem reply jake bony1 bony com 's message tue , 11 may 1993 17 32 27 gmt lines 14 reply eggertj mit edu organization mit lincoln lab group 41 eggertj moses mit edu cbnewsj cb att com bony1 bony com article bony1 bony com jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) writes appear referring moshe dayan know evicted jordanians provided something else \? fact , thread indicates squatters land received compensation loss , anyways ! woe jews feel recovering land taken force \( ethnic cleansing remaining jews \) disgusting shameful anyone reference claim arabs moghrabi district squatters \? n't seen books read n't seen opposite , either jim eggertj mit edu \( jim eggert \)
reply dcs witsend tnet com c sessions dcs witsend tnet com organization nobody really x newsposter tmail version 1 20r subject israeli destruction mosque \( \) jerusalem distribution world lines 45 terminator rs itd umich edu , ra itd umich edu \( jack love \) wrote article news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) writes issue going presentation one reference probably wo n't resolve issue oppose insistence mosques destroyed even location one reference , spend quote dealing incidence , , nothing issue hand , end quote , almost hand comment two mosques destroyed support claim nature , authors support incident \? identifiable mosques destroyed certainly identifiable , names addresses \( location \) comment one reporter make us wonder happened means proves doubt israeli authorities ordered destruction mosques vicinity wailing wall mean , however , generalize points entire plaza , mosques , cleared make possible jews place worship place holiest many , denied millenia hand , throughout rest jerusalem israel , best knowledge , israeli authorities avoided damage islamic religious sites policies previous regimes destroyed jewish synagogues hate bigotry , matter , usa around , nobody freeways avoid churches , synagogues , forth get condemned , paid , road goes standard policy number public projects schools sports arenas two examples anticipating objection cases n't comparable \? wall count 1 tourist attraction part world making room traffic would twenty second decision city council ever heard c sessions speaking note new network address dcs witsend tnet com author \( everything else ! \) tmail \( dos mail news shell \)
reply dcs witsend tnet com c sessions dcs witsend tnet com organization nobody really x newsposter tmail version 1 20r subject question last thoughts israeli pilots kill distribution world lines 16 hal gnu ai mit edu , steel hal gnu ai mit edu \( nick steel \) wrote q israeli pilot bombing school children lebanon gets shot , crashes head first , 's last thing goes mind \( head \) \? butt hole count one original constructive contributions yet tpm , well worth took send thousands computers world c sessions speaking note new network address dcs witsend tnet com author \( everything else ! \) tmail \( dos mail news shell \)
jaskew spam maths adelaide edu au \( joseph askew \) subject israel apartheid state organization statistics , pure applied mathematics , university adelaide lines 32 article m06 cville srv wam umd edu aap wam umd edu \( alberto adolfo pinkas \) writes article 1993may10 pasteur berkeley edu adams bellini berkeley edu \( adam l schwartz \) writes consider defining belonging nation claims right state based religious belief form racism although n't want muddy waters unnecessarily disagree discrimination based religion cannot racist unless sole qualification religious membership racial case israel although might get little closer , say , islam course raises question church antisemitism jews heavily discriminated grounds religion many christian countries take russia example jews seriously persecuted persecution eyes church state stopped baptismal font officially anyway jew converted legal barriers way \( know anyway \) peter great 's interior minister came convert background claim russian orthodox teach antisemitism antisemitic \? similarly roman catholic church \? suspect racial one based belief form racism well maybe antisemitism something racially based \? wonder hitler killed converts german blood anyone know one way \? joseph askew joseph askew , gauche proud autumn stillness , see pleiades , jaskew spam maths adelaide edu remote thorny deserts , fell grief disclaimer \? sue , see care north tents , sky must end somwhere , actually , rather like brenda beyond pale , river murmurs
hernlem chess ncsu edu \( brad hernlem \) subject news missed reply hernlem chess ncsu edu \( brad hernlem \) organization ncsu chem eng lines 38 article bony1 bony com , jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) writes article 1993may7 175730 12246 ncsu edu hernlem chess ncsu edu \( brad hernlem \) writes article optima cs arizona edu , bakken cs arizona edu \( dave bakken \) writes article bony1 bony com jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) writes ny times , sunday , may 2 , article somalia , reporter writes last year , iran quietly took four islands belonging united arab emirates deported people , hardly protest united states anyone know referring \? seem missed \( spiked , doubt \) something nyt sources days ongoing border , iranians kicked uae people briefly reported \( many moons ago \) n't recall reading public us comment strong protest probably would seen islands would abu musa , greater lesser , presume n't know fourth latter two islands belong iran according ny times , 4 islands belong united arab emirates jake livni ny times error simply opinion even arab sources use make claim , course , assuming ny times refering islands named islands , abu musa dispute iranian occupation island predates existence uae brad hernlem
benali alcor concordia ca \( ilyess b bdira \) subject bosnian war taking strategic turn , bosnians call europe 's keywords international , non usa government , government , fighting , united nations , civil rights , social issues nntp posting host alcor concordia ca organization concordia university , montreal , canada lines 59 clarinews clarinet com \( j nguyen \) writes united nations \( upi \) muslim dominated government bosnia herzegovina asked u n security council tuesday withdraw u n personnel bosnian territory first step toward lifting international arms embargo former yugoslav republic bosnian government , saying presence u n personnel become impediment critical decisions international community , '' indicated withdrawal relief workers would persuade western governments lift arms embargo muslims could defend bosnian serbs security council imposed arms embargo whole former yugoslavia 1991 fighting erupted serb imposed knowing serbia stockpile weapons , bosnia next nothing defend many experts predicted massacre early march , 1992 , security knew france britain opposed u proposals military air strikes bosnian serbs , saying strong action would lead retaliation troops personnel bosnian move tuesday part bid undermine british french opposition military intervention based fears safety european peacekeeping troops humanitarian personnel 's ambassador united nations , mohamed , conveyed letter security council members , told reporters mandate modified withdraw said security council refuses request , government take step '' elaborate steps government might take letter council , said president clinton understood well desperate united states seeking support lifting arms embargo said international community realized war bosnia herzegovina fascist maintenance arms embargo arrogant fate hundreds thousands loyal bosnian citizens , plead right defend '' ``we security council cease arms embargo , practice , constituted international intervention legitimate rights member united nations , '' said read , tim clock co request security council took members surprise , even though complaints aired bosnian government time allies muslims could find council non aligned islamic countries , calling right self defense , provision u n charter
eggertj moses mit edu \( jim eggert x6127 g41 \) subject israeli destruction mosque \( \) jerusalem reply c sessions 's message tue , 11 may 1993 09 30 09 mst lines 23 reply eggertj mit edu organization mit lincoln lab group 41 news service uci edu terminator rs itd umich edu witsend uucp article witsend uucp c sessions dcs witsend tnet com writes , matter , usa around , nobody freeways avoid churches , synagogues , forth get condemned , paid , road goes standard policy number public projects schools sports arenas two examples anticipating objection cases n't comparable \? wall count 1 tourist attraction part world making room traffic would twenty second decision city council ever heard cases n't really comparable project like freeway requires public hearings , court action , appeals , advance determination restitution , razing moghrabi district east jerusalem happened within hours end hostilities 6 day war residents given two three hours' notice pack find elsewhere chance public hearing , debate , appeal , negotiation anything get die rubble jim eggertj mit edu \( jim eggert \)
dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) subject addressing turkish genocide apology 452 summary turkish denial genocide mccarthy hovannisian karpat shaw keywords anti armenian anti greek stanford shaw exposed ! organization p center regional studies lines 143 turkish historical revision zuma uucp via sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) responded article minerva cis yale edu pavlovic milan yale edu \( milan pavlovic \) wrote mp actually , would like get compilation one liners , mp could print show friends mp summer , see kind clowns exist chicago check alt fans serdar argic ! \( well , change fact period 1914 1920 , \( armenian government ordered , incited , assisted participated \( genocide 2 5 million muslim people race , religion \( national origin \? muslim race \? muslim national origin \? fool ! \( 1 \) armenians slaughter entire muslim population van 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 today muslims 100 , armenians 0 \( 2 \) armenians slaughter 42 muslim population bitlis 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 today muslims 100 , armenians 0 \( 3 \) armenians slaughter 31 muslim population erzurum 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 today muslims 100 , armenians 0 \( 4 \) armenians slaughter 26 muslim population diyarbakir 1 , 2 , \( 3 , 4 today muslims 100 , armenians 0 \( 5 \) armenians slaughter 16 muslim population 1 , \( 2 , 3 , 4 today muslims 100 , armenians 0 \( 6 \) armenians slaughter 15 muslim population sivas 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 today muslims 100 , armenians 0 \( 7 \) armenians slaughter entire muslim population x soviet \( armenia 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 azeri population armenia 1988 , anti armenian pogroms azerbaijan , kicked sent azerbaijan remaining muslims stayed armenia ! \( 1 mccarthy , j , muslims minorities , population ottoman \( anatolia end empire , new york \( university press , new york , 1983 , pp 133 144 let 's check ! page 121 turkish suggested reference read 1927 turkish census registered one person gregorian armenian faith van , one , twelve erzurum people lived eastern anatolia since recorded history simply gone \( 2 karpat , k , ottoman population , university wisconsin press , \( 1985 let 's check , first complete title reference includes words 1830 1914 thus reference cannot support claimed garbage ! however , since turkish suggested reference , pages 51 table i2 b states 2 4 million armenians turkey guess simply gone wwi ! \( 3 hovannisian , r g , armenia road independence , 1918 \( university california press \( berkeley \( los angeles \) , 1967 , pp 13 , 37 let 's check ! page 48 turkish suggested reference , sub title , deportation massacre turkish armenians states several authors assert armenian resistance van constituted key factor turkish evacuation persia motivated young turk leaders annihilate turkish armenians question responsibility massacres deportation nearly ottoman armenians evolved hundreds books , articles , documents published describe horrifying scenes violence death many writers , british bryce toynbee , french , german , american gibbons , insisted massacres ruthlessly executed refuted ottoman government 's official publications justifications anti armenian measures even outbreak war fact remains estimated eight hundred thousand million armenians perished within months , several hundred thousand following years disease , famine , refugee life unknown numbers women children converted forcibly islam , possessed turkish men , adopted moslem families \( 4 shaw , j , 'on armenian collaboration invading russian armies \( 1914 , history ottoman empire modern turkey \( \( volume ii reform , revolution republic rise \( modern turkey , 1808 1975 \) \( london , cambridge university \( press 1977 \) pp 315 316 stanford shaw paid liar revisionist turkish government , exposed ! example experts interview \( greek \) professor \( nyc 's national herald , 3 12 93 \) thanks , mr g b people know problem faced ucla professor stanford shaw due promotion knew turkey 's man due reading knowledge turkish , member promotion committee case , sat read entire treatise history ottoman empire modern turkey took three months found , volume , uzun , eminent turkish specialist ottoman history shaw claimed introduction treatise outcome 20 year search ottoman archives well , went leave managed show 40 volume , containing around 5000 sentences , result , matching sentence passages original work even reproduced errors produced 500 pages manuscript submitted 60 pages report shaw 's university , however , rejected report , closed meeting , promoted stanford shaw distinguished professor paid price upset whole process , confronted entire university structure considered madman asked permission run seminar shaw 's book denied president university center near eastern studies granted permission , president depriving academic freedom luckily , dean refused give run seminar , attended 150 academic people , uncovered stanford shaw , refused attend punishment , university froze raises 5 gochnak \( armenian newspaper published united states \) , may 24 , 1915 chance ! may 24th , 1915 issue gochnak ! david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org armenia learned lesson p center regional studies anatolia forgotten p box 382761 punishment inflicted 4 14 93 cambridge , 02238 late turkish president turgut ozal
oaf zurich ai mit edu \( oded feingold \) subject friends p , send greetings organization artificial intelligence lab lines 1 reply oaf zurich ai mit edu nntp posting host klosters ai mit edu reply chip ucdavis edu 's message thu , 6 may 1993 22 47 00 gmt outrage ! n't even dog
sadek cbnewsg cb att com \( mohamed sadek \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians organization lines 10 like mr joseph biden say yesterday 5 11 93 senate condemening european lack action lack support us plans calling moral rape went say reason right religious bigotry mohamed
prabhak giga cs umn edu \( satya prabhakar \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians nntp posting host giga cs umn edu organization university minnesota , minneapolis , csci dept lines 20 \( mohamed sadek \) writes like mr joseph biden say yesterday 5 11 93 senate condemening european lack action lack support us plans calling moral rape went say reason right religious bigotry actually , strife yugoslavia goes back long way bosinan muslims , collaboration nazis , serbians first world war serbs muslims fresh case ethnic cleansing another chapter continuing saga intense mutual hatred , destruction , taking sides perpetual war amount religious bigotry could helplessness regards bringing peace region even know meaning word satya prabhakar
jakhan iastate edu \( javed ahmed khan \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians reply jakhan iastate edu \( javed ahmed khan \) organization iowa state university lines 36 article c6x81m ejf news cis umn edu , prabhak giga cs umn edu \( satya prabhakar \) writes \( mohamed sadek \) writes like mr joseph biden say yesterday 5 11 93 senate condemening european lack action lack support us plans calling moral rape went say reason right religious bigotry actually , strife yugoslavia goes back long way bosinan muslims , collaboration nazis , serbians first world war serbs muslims fresh case ethnic cleansing another chapter continuing saga intense mutual hatred , destruction , taking sides perpetual war amount religious bigotry could helplessness regards bringing peace region even know meaning word dont think 're correct reports bosnians muslims supporting nazis genocide serbians fact croat govt using secret police \( called ustache , think \) prime agents nazis yugoslavia serbs satya prabhakar javed
bnr ca \( \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians organization bell northern research , ottawa , canada lines 26 article c6x81m ejf news cis umn edu prabhak giga cs umn edu \( satya prabhakar \) writes \( mohamed sadek \) writes like mr joseph biden say yesterday 5 11 93 senate condemening european lack action lack support us plans calling moral rape went say reason right religious bigotry actually , strife yugoslavia goes back long way bosinan muslims , collaboration nazis , serbians first world war serbs muslims fresh case ethnic cleansing another chapter continuing saga intense mutual hatred , destruction , taking sides perpetual war amount religious bigotry could helplessness regards bringing peace region even know meaning word satya prabhakar yeah right , sorta like indian sub , eh \? regards ,
utoronto ca \( senad \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians organisation u toronto , dept mechanical engineering organization uoft mechanical engineering lines 21 prabhak giga cs umn edu \( satya prabhakar \) writes \( mohamed sadek \) writes like mr joseph biden say yesterday 5 11 93 senate condemening european lack action lack support us plans calling moral rape went say reason right religious bigotry actually , strife yugoslavia goes back long way bosinan muslims , collaboration nazis , serbians first world war serbs muslims world get \? please read history books start talking something satya prabhakar senad
josip eng umd edu \( josip loncaric \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians organization project glue , university maryland , college park lines 63 nntp posting host orbit src umd edu article 3xd cbfsb cb att com sadek cbnewsg cb att com \( mohamed sadek \) writes like mr joseph biden say yesterday 5 11 93 senate condemening european lack action lack support us plans calling moral rape went say reason right religious bigotry parts sen biden 's statement quoted washington post today let put plainly , mr secretary required speak cannot even begin express contempt european policy asking us participate amounts serbian victory encountered mosaic , , self delusion hypocrisy held coats kuwait somalia , asking us put thousand troops ground order right speak order implement new idea bosnians let 's words european policy based cultural religious , bigotry think 's fair say would entirely different situation muslims serbs done , muslim aggression instead serbian aggression bad washington post include next sentence , pointed consequence policy rising anger within islamic world , consequences cannot begin predict later , biden told reporter spoke think someone respond europe make clear big deal understand big deal refusing fundamental human right self defense bosnia herzegovina , europe world aided serbian aggression moreover , arms embargo forced situation bosnian serbs 10 times heavy weaponry bosnian croats muslims combined conditions , easy serbs play divide conquer game , get muslims croats \( strong common interests allied serbian aggression \) start fighting , leads mutual catastrophe one final quote u secretary state , warren christopher , said rome last week practice , embargo opposite effect intended made aggression certain diplomats deluded could negotiate peace enforcing 10 1 imbalance power ground contributed tragedy sincerely , josip
shaig think com \( shai guday \) subject israel apartheid state \? quite organization thinking machines corporation , cambridge , usa lines 57 distribution world nntp posting host composer think com article 2703 spam maths adelaide edu au , jaskew spam maths adelaide edu au \( joseph askew \) writes article early bird think com shaig think com \( shai guday \) writes article spam maths adelaide edu au , jaskew spam maths adelaide edu au \( joseph askew \) writes arabs cabinet look long took insignificant positions assigned ! based solely race political belief security jewish members party always welcome fellow arabs first , arab standing party , party , solely dependent upon amount political power wield effectively question individuals standing party puts arab cabinet post arab rejected position given jew party talking power racism would care deny happened several occasions labour \? please cite specific examples arab party member rejected jewish party member accepted examine sure discover arab party member power base jewish counterpart party structure israel changed quite bit insofar knesset member elections go knesset members parties elected via top standing members end cabinet posts purely political power issue check ranking arab labor party members , opposed members let know posts held jews ranked lower party arab fellow , arguments sake , arab israelis vote labor next election , rest assured number arab mks cabinet members would increase proportionately power shift party individuals even belong nice peaceful zionist mainstream parties welcome arabs excluded security grounds excuse sure looks like racism overlooking fact wield political power individuals based upon wider collective power base arabs excluded cabinet , even things suggest , arabs unless course better reason \? happy listen good reason leftist jew less security risk leftist arab party look present cabinet reasoning see work purely political far security goes think serious made right wing jews well e g sharon shai guday stealth bombers , os software engineer thinking machines corp winged ninja skies cambridge ,
goykhman apollo hp com \( red herring \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians nntp posting host ch apollo hp com organization hewlett packard company , chelmsford , lines 34 article 1993may12 iastate edu jakhan iastate edu \( javed ahmed khan \) writes article c6x81m ejf news cis umn edu , prabhak giga cs umn edu \( satya prabhakar \) writes \( mohamed sadek \) writes like mr joseph biden say yesterday 5 11 93 senate condemening european lack action lack support us plans calling moral rape went say reason right religious bigotry actually , strife yugoslavia goes back long way bosinan muslims , collaboration nazis , serbians first world war serbs muslims fresh case ethnic cleansing another chapter continuing saga intense mutual hatred , destruction , taking sides perpetual war amount religious bigotry could helplessness regards bringing peace region even know meaning word dont think 're correct reports bosnians muslims supporting nazis genocide serbians fact croat govt using secret police \( called ustache , think \) prime agents nazis yugoslavia serbs 13th ss divison , made bosnian muslim volunteers , quite job former yugoslavia wwii folks 60 's 70 's makes wonder many occupy positions power bosnia 's goverment
michael sells sells haverford edu subject please ! show washington dc bosnia \( may 15th \) organization haverford college lines 29 distribution world nntp posting host 130 58 172 17 x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d20 x xxdate wed , 12 may 93 13 13 03 gmt article 3xd cbfsb cb att com mohamed sadek , sadek cbnewsg cb att com writes like mr joseph biden say yesterday 5 11 93 senate condemening european lack action lack support us plans calling moral rape went say reason right religious bigotry mohamed biden spoke well john major , architect betrayal bosnian muslims genocide basically given yet another green light mladic serial killers , rapists , continue genocide bosnian muslims major met mr rushdie said unacceptable iran death decree disagree personally hack writers like rushdie \( helps sell books \) , find interesting mr major finds genocide two million muslims bosnia acceptable , threat one single popular british writer unacceptable michael sells , department religion , haverford college haverford , pa 19041 1392
michael sells sells haverford edu subject please ! show washington dc bosnia \( may 15th \) organization haverford college lines 71 distribution world nntp posting host 130 58 172 17 x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d20 x xxdate wed , 12 may 93 13 19 12 gmt subject europe vs muslim bosnians satya prabhakar , prabhak giga cs umn edu date wed , 12 may 1993 15 50 31 gmt article c6x81m ejf news cis umn edu satya prabhakar , prabhak giga cs umn edu writes \( mohamed sadek \) writes like mr joseph biden say yesterday 5 11 93 senate condemening european lack action lack support us plans calling moral rape went say reason right religious bigotry actually , strife yugoslavia goes back long way bosinan muslims , collaboration nazis , serbians first world war serbs muslims kind generalization utterly inappropriate bosnian muslims nazis world war 2 bosnian muslims risked lifes hide jews nazis , jews survived war remember fact jewish leader sarajevo remained saying wants repay debt bosnian muslims saved many jewish lives ww2 similarly , serbs muslims group serial killers , rapists , thieves control vast yugoslav army arsenal many serbs oppose atrocities one serbian heritage condemns emphatically genocide carried muslims mladic forces , condemn generalization bosnian muslims serbs fresh case ethnic cleansing another chapter continuing saga intense mutual hatred , destruction , every place earth scene saga mutual hatred destruction holocaust fresh case another chapter 900 year history attacks jews europe n't make acceptable balkan history make genocide bosnian muslims acceptable taking sides perpetual war amount religious bigotry standing allowing well armed criminals slaughter bosnian muslim civilians , enforcing arms embargo bosnian muslims religious bigotry direct complicity mass murder could helplessness regards bringing peace region even know meaning word tell us region earth long history war nato largest military police force world helpless could stopped carnage year ago satya prabhakar regards , mike michael sells , department religion , haverford college haverford , pa 19041 1392
cs psu edu \( \) subject please ! show washington dc bosnia \( may 15th \) nntp posting host cs psu edu organization penn state computer science lines 74 article 73k venus haverford edu michael sells sells haverford edu writes subject europe vs muslim bosnians satya prabhakar , prabhak giga cs umn edu date wed , 12 may 1993 15 50 31 gmt article c6x81m ejf news cis umn edu satya prabhakar , prabhak giga cs umn edu writes \( mohamed sadek \) writes like mr joseph biden say yesterday 5 11 93 senate condemening european lack action lack support us plans calling moral rape went say reason right religious bigotry actually , strife yugoslavia goes back long way bosinan muslims , collaboration nazis , serbians first world war serbs muslims kind generalization utterly inappropriate bosnian muslims nazis world war 2 bosnian muslims risked lifes hide jews nazis , jews survived war remember fact jewish leader sarajevo remained saying wants repay debt bosnian muslims saved many jewish lives ww2 similarly , serbs muslims group serial killers , rapists , thieves control vast yugoslav army arsenal many serbs oppose atrocities one serbian heritage condemns emphatically genocide carried muslims mladic forces , condemn generalization bosnian muslims serbs fresh case ethnic cleansing another chapter continuing saga intense mutual hatred , destruction , every place earth scene saga mutual hatred destruction holocaust fresh case another chapter 900 year history attacks jews europe n't make acceptable balkan history make genocide bosnian muslims acceptable taking sides perpetual war amount religious bigotry standing allowing well armed criminals slaughter bosnian muslim civilians , enforcing arms embargo bosnian muslims religious bigotry direct complicity mass murder could helplessness regards bringing peace region even know meaning word tell us region earth long history war nato largest military police force world helpless could stopped carnage year ago satya prabhakar regards , mike michael sells , department religion , haverford college haverford , pa 19041 1392
josip eng umd edu \( josip loncaric \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians organization project glue , university maryland , college park lines 48 nntp posting host orbit src umd edu article 1993may12 iastate edu jakhan iastate edu \( javed ahmed khan \) writes article c6x81m ejf news cis umn edu , prabhak giga cs umn edu \( satya prabhakar \) writes actually , strife yugoslavia goes back long way bosinan muslims , collaboration nazis , serbians first world war serbs muslims fresh case dont think 're correct reports bosnians muslims supporting nazis genocide serbians fact croat govt using secret police \( called ustache , think \) prime agents nazis yugoslavia serbs actually , first world war , many muslims killed serbs serbian led regime two world wars , many croats also killed \( especially dictatorship introduced jan 6 , 1929 \) croats formed resistance movement \( \) forced exile , fascist italy , sheltered exile , practiced terrorist approach liberating croatia croats croatia followed approach peaceful negotiations leadership axis powers took control second world war , refused collaborate , brought run newly formed puppet state state included croatia bosnia herzegovina , ideology saw muslims best croats \( flowers croatian people \) muslims bosnia herzegovina therefore joined however , even others joined tito 's membership peaked less 1 croat muslim population area time wwii , muslims still considered religious minority descended croats serbs converted islam centuries ago , 1968 , decided forcing muslims declare nationality either serbs croats good policy , current president yugoslavia , strongly opposed , sought prevent category muslim \( ethnic sense \) appearing next census criticized expelled party , since time , bosnian muslims considered separate nationality , although still deny insist choose either serb croat nationality sincerely , josip
ramin nosubdomain nodomain \( ramin \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians nntp posting host organization bnr , inc lines 18 recollection history documentary books different understanding croats allies germany wwii , serbs sided russia result serbs take beating croats \( bosnian moslems \) germany upper hand even today , russians consider call serbs brothers one issues involved u n 's lack active intervention serbs bosnian moslems , heard alliance germany russia recent history therefore , curious able treat parties conflict \( getting today \) past history regards ramin
aap wam umd edu \( alberto adolfo pinkas \) subject israel apartheid state organization university maryland , college park lines 56 nntp posting host rac2 wam umd edu article 1993may12 das harvard edu adam endor uucp \( adam shostack \) writes point converting another religion loose cultural identity , loose religious identification disagree converting another religion , certainly change cultural identity , lose part jewish would change one many parts define cultural identity loose leg , might change personality , stop human even , someone gets baboon heart , person still human part nation defined culture religion actually , atheist , fact like converting non jewish terms religion , still considered part jewish nation , serious cultural difference renouncing jewish god accepting new one thou shall gods conversion violation , atheism might able wiggle around really agnostics atheists atheist , believe god , believe ever one , commandments meaning also , lot ideas meaning idea chosen people , idea given right land israel , idea keeping kosher , idea opposing intermarriage , idea torah inspired god , etc atheist , cannot support idea jewish nation defined religious principle based religious identity , religion another piece constitutes cultural identity jewish people believe people cultural identity constitute nation right people world state right armenians , palestinians , french , anybody else cannot say accepting different god someone lost cultural identification adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu aap
aap wam umd edu \( alberto adolfo pinkas \) subject israel apartheid state organization university maryland , college park lines 22 nntp posting host rac2 wam umd edu article spam maths adelaide edu au jaskew spam maths adelaide edu au \( joseph askew \) writes article m06 cville srv wam umd edu aap wam umd edu \( alberto adolfo pinkas \) writes consider defining belonging nation claims right state based religious belief form racism although n't want muddy waters unnecessarily disagree discrimination based religion cannot racist unless sole qualification religious membership racial way means anti jewish anti persons semite , form racism means form segregation different based religious identification aap joseph askew
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians organization university toronto chemistry department lines 21 article 3xd cbfsb cb att com sadek cbnewsg cb att com \( mohamed sadek \) writes like mr joseph biden say yesterday 5 11 93 senate condemening european lack action lack support us plans calling moral rape easy sen biden say us troops zepa existing un policy may wrong , us wants dictate policy , make europe responsible consequences policy bosnia big enough problem us preach countries forces forces safely tucked away home us gerald
jovanovic nick yale edu \( nick jovanovic \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians organization yale university science engineering unix \( tm \) , new , ct 06520 2158 lines 20 nntp posting host minerva cis yale edu article mojo eng umd edu josip eng umd edu \( josip loncaric \) writes conditions , easy serbs play divide conquer game , get muslims croats \( strong common serbs divided croatia bosnia attempted yugoslavia , ripping 2 , 000 , 000 serbs property yugoslavia croatian muslim nations right , republics additionally , negotiated , would probably required international instead illegal , unilateral , acts war yugoslavia want ripped yugoslavia nick
pts seas smu edu \( paul thompson schreiber \) subject enemy within nntp posting host seas smu edu organization school engineering applied science u dallas , tx lines 692 enemy within robert friedman village voice , may 11 , 1993 , vol 19 anti defamation league turned notion human rights head , spying progress ives information law enforcement roy bullock wanted spy since teenager indiana read led three lives , herbert philbrick 's cold war saga communist party fbi philbrick become american folk hero 1950s building unsuspecting colleagues time hollywood produced 30 films quintessential american patriot boston , philbrick led three lives fbi informant , communist party member , private citizen , mayor even proclaimed herbert philbrick day presented spy plaque bullock , shy young man coming terms homosexuality straight arrow , life double agent perfect way hide lifestyle fighting communist menace fascinated herbert philbrick , bullock recently told federal investigators , thought would try infiltrate communist part 1957 , went sixth world youth student festival moscow american delegation gave fbi full report returned , along photos took soviet military vehicles bullock hooked next two years , worked unpaid informant fbi found true calling became paid spy anti defamation league 1960 activities center biggest domestic spy scandal recent american history scandal may end adl 's criminal indictment san francisco 30 year period , compiled computer files adl individuals 950 groups political stripes , including naacp , rainbow coalition , aclu , american indian movement , center investigative reporting , , act , palestinian arab groups , solidarity groups , americans peace , anti apartheid organizations bullock , even spied recently slain south african nationalist chris hani visited bay area april 1991 , sold many adl files anti apartheid activists south african intelligence meanwhile , 1985 1993 , adl paid nearly 170 , 000 , using prominent beverly hills attorney conduit order conceal financial relationship bullock last month , police raided adl offices los angeles san francisco , well bullock 's home , confiscating computer files boxes documents according court records , bullock 's files contained driver 's license vehicle registration information , addition criminal histories individuals much allegedly stolen fbi police computers bullock , 58 , told fbi copies virtually everything computer data base given san francisco adl office based evidence , says inspector ron roth , police affidavit , believe roy bullock adl numerous peace officers supplying confidential criminal dmv information 's , san francisco investigating bullock tapping phones , accessing answering machines , assuming false identities infiltrate organizations documents seized bullock 's home also contained evidence bay area trash cans names phone numbers employees christic institute san francisco , well telephone message slips staff members \( including names phone numbers callers \) , office correspondence listing names return addresses senders , inter office memos also receipts christic institute 's bank accounts wells federal savings , well canceled checks names , dates , amounts bullock even knew balance christic institute 's checking account investigations fbi police san francisco revealed adl shared least spy gathering material israeli government officials 's , israel apparently used tips adl palestinian americans travelled adl established new york city 1913 defend jews , later minority groups , discrimination led fight racist fascist groups like ku klux klan american nazi party , 1960s civil rights movement also darker side late 1940s , adl spied leftists communists , shared investigative files house committee un american activities fbi adl swung sharply right reagan administration , becoming irwin suall , repentant heads adl 's powerful fact finding department , real danger jews posed right coalition leftists , blacks , arabs , view threaten fabric democracy america , well state israel tradition ideological william casey , suall directed adl 's vast network informants , given code names like scumbag , , spy reportedly posing priest atlanta flipper years , journalists liberal members jewish community knew adl spied right wing hate groups long targets anti semitic organizations like liberty lobby lyndon larouche , one seemed particularly troubled bullock case reveals adl also spied groups , progressive orientation apparent massive violation civil liberties may end adl 's criminal indictment san francisco , investigation began human rights group faces possible criminal prosecution many 48 felony counts , including indictment gaining illegal access police computers says one source close west coast investigation , 99 per cent certain adl indicted wake san francisco investigation , police probes adl spying spreading parts country received numerous complaints adl spying , says sam adams , spokesperson mayor 's office portland , oregon april 16 , harlem based black united fund new york , african american self help group bullock allegedly spied , wrote district attorney robert , requesting immediate investigation adl adl 's actions cause great concern , direct violation minimum civil rights call upon join district attorney san francisco bring end latest form gerald , spokesperson 's office , says , evidence us warrants sort investigation adds offered assist fbi san francisco 's office pending investigation , far , asked assistance adl acknowledges sharing information violence prone groups law enforcement officials also admits maintaining extensive files wide variety organizations , says , two page press release , vast majority adl 's files composed news clips , magazine articles , books , journals , documents adl made clear countenance violations law part anyone connected agency , process league gathers information presently review insure laws violated 's adl says public consumption morale low employees complain nights crying fits even jewish groups circle wagons around adl show solidarity , many holding noses jewish officials privately say adl decide whether human rights group secret police agency adl regarded inside jewish community outside jewish community definitive source information anti semitism extremist groups , says daniel , former executive director center democratic renewal , atlanta based group monitors anti semitism , racism , hate groups one things scandal done completely tainted adl 's credibility reputation regard objectivity scandal going devastating blow jewish community large people regard adl synonymous american jewry bullock 's talents snoop extreme meshed well adl 's cold war worldview 1960 , moved southern california became adl spy 75 00 week bullock almost always used real name snooping , although called elmer fink corresponding supporters alabama governor george wallace bullock provided adl 's office los angeles written reports , transmitted fact finding department head irwin suall , according court records suall 's , fact finding department become adl 's heart soul located adl national headquarters across united nations , department assembled vast library hate groups , material publications , speeches , informants reports bullock adept leading double life long moving california , woman john society helped gain access group 's boston office , found file right wingers keeping adl discovery gave rise speculation adl new york office somehow penetrated bullock focused almost exclusively right wing extremist groups early 1970s adl l head milton sinn replaced harvey , encouraged target left well years later , bullock moved castro district san francisco posed art dealer adl fact finder infiltrated local arab community exposed ensuing scandal died , bullock ordered adl penetrate arabs adl especially concerned american arab anti discrimination committee , founded former south dakota senator james combat arab bashing page cia 's dirty tricks handbook penetration destabilization , bullock joined adc , recruited nazis group , apparently trying discredit , according published reports 1987 , adl sent bullock attend national association arab americans annual congress washington according court documents , bullock told find source group 's funds bullock unable follow money good job appointed head delegation visited congress member nancy 's surprising adl penetrated arab organizations acute paranoia explains interest groups like act far bullock concerned , gay groups san francisco heavily infiltrated called gay left revolutionaries , prompting write activities adl bullock soon expanded horizons , moving shadowy realm foreign espionage richard , head adl 's san francisco office , introduced thomas gerard 1986 gerard detective san francisco police department 's intelligence unit gerard worked expert cia el early 1980s , apparently passing interest right wing death squads \( police searching gerard 's briefcase found extensive cia literature torture interrogation , photos blindfolded chained men , well passports made gerard 10 different names , including thomas remote jungle island philippines fled last november , gerard told los angeles times blow lid cia 's involvement latin american death squads indicted adl spy case \) first encounter adl office , gerard bullock lunch mcdonald 's , liked tom right , bullock later told san francisco police investigator whose report interrogation obtained voice tom charming , character , great deal integrity let say , consider tom gerard one finest policemen 've ever worked , absolutely honest , capable , intelligent 100 percent american long , bullock providing gerard confidential adl reports various groups individuals turn , gerard gave bullock classified police intelligence files local arab americans , , others bullock told fbi gerard 's material ended adl reports would say 99 percent data got name , address , sometimes physical description criminal history , rarely , bullock told investigators gerard also gave bullock chart outlined vast network bay area arab american businessmen organizations allegedly ties middle east terror groups , well surveillance photos arab americans receiving weapons training overseas bullock claims u customs new york gave gerard photos understood bullock would careful information gerard gave , bullock would release except adl law enforcement officers , says fbi report nothing unusual bullock 's cozy relationship law enforcement mid 1980s , adl swapping files hundreds official friends , organization 's euphemism u law enforcement intelligence sources adl 's relationship fbi 's office close adl 's reports arab american group 's covert ties middle east terrorists must reading 's accident police found 1986 classified fbi report entitled popular front liberation palestine \( \) new york area searching adl 's san francisco office 1987 , adl spooks investigated seven palestinians studying california universities student adl discovered literature , informed fbi , turn took case immigration service ins ordered students deported , adl regional director david lehrer los angeles times office 's cooperation law enforcement , although 's los angeles 8 deportation still appeal adl worked quietly america 's top cops , enjoyed similar ties israel 's spy agencies charge adl leaders vehemently deny early july 7 , 1961 , adl director benjamin epstein wrote executive secretary saul , requesting 25 , 000 investigators information , boasted , addition essential operations , great value service united states department israeli government data made available countries full knowledge source 1987 , adl came fbi scrutiny wake pollard spy scandal assigned navy 's anti terrorist alert center , access closely guarded u secrets , jonathan pollard stole thousands pages classified documents israel , , according federal prosecutors , could fill room size large closet ten feet six feet six feet pollard 's handler avi , israeli air force colonel whose wife worked new york adl lawyer pollard later wrote friends prominent adl leader deeply involved israeli spy operation proof anyone connected adl involved pollard , evidence adl freely passes information israeli intelligence march 1993 , fbi interrogated david gurvitz , adl fact finder los angeles 1992 fired suall illegally obtaining police information use rival simon center fbi asked gurvitz ever transmitted information israel gurvitz admitted 1992 learned law enforcement contact michael elias , allegedly member radical plo faction , scheduled travel san francisco international airport en route haifa gurvitz phoned deputy israeli consul general l information later day , according 15 page fbi interview gurvitz obtained voice , gurvitz called back another man , said israeli consulate , asked gurvitz repeat information elias gurvitz get man 's name , conversation hebrew gurvitz felt confident man actually israeli consulate official among 12 , 000 names private citizens police found adl files san francisco mohammed , 36 year old chicago resident arrested israel january 25 , allegedly distributing hundreds thousands dollars hamas , large islamic fundamentalist movement occupied territories chicago adl office runs least three undercover informants work official friends local law enforcement , according documents released san francisco sources close adl given facts , arab american groups surmise adl passed information israeli intelligence one technique used adl monitor large arab american community midwest scan local arab press funeral notices according sources familiar practice , adl investigators vans videotaped palestinian , sometimes turned plo rallies palestinians detained ben gurion airport simply basis filmed attending funeral chicago , according , executive director united holy land fund , whose cousin arab member israel 's knesset shortly arrested , israeli government announced hamas run america money operational instructions relayed courier fax israel 's charges played front page new york times according well placed sources , barsky , adl fact finder new york , worked closely israeli officials campaign , introducing friendly reporters official friends chicago law enforcement barsky , fluent arabic , prepared adl report hamas funded america identified dallas based islamic association palestine north america front organization hamas u infrastructure functions network organizations , small businesses , individual activists , says february 1993 adl report , outlines organization 's development , activities u college , gulf war also traces hamas plethora alleged front groups , indiana , culver city , california doubtful barsky could compiled sophisticated data without help official friends adl spies barsky refused comment used talk greg many three times week opposition researcher aipac , whose spy operation disclosed last summer voice level cooperation close , said recent phone conservation israel graduate school felt files lacking , contacted adl jabarin , 30 year old palestinian human rights worker occupied territories 25 , 000 human rights award 1990 , recalls barsky faxed aipac man 's entire police file , obtained israeli embassy jabarin arrested numerous times israel , confessed member plo severely tortured jabarin , received short jail term , became amnesty international prisoner conscience course , aipac adl , jabarin terrorist , ordered keep tabs u receive award , called representative al , palestinian human rights group employed jabarin , obtain aipac even opened file musician jackson , presented jabarin award adl may able rationalize close monitoring arabs , even left wing gay revolutionaries , far harder time explaining obsession spying anti apartheid activists david gurvitz told fbi started working fact finder adl l march 1989 , adl files already information israel south african connection anti apartheid groups gurvitz confirmed adl routinely collect information persons engaged anti apartheid activities united states , says fbi report gurvitz said files l adl office dating 1930s , estimated oldest material anti apartheid activities dates back late 1970s , begin 's rise power israel ties jewish state south africa august , 1992 , says report fbi 's march 3 , 1993 , interview gurvitz , anti apartheid demonstration held south african consulate los angeles participating demonstration los angeles student coalition socialist workers party gurvitz went two demonstration planning sessions , subsequent demonstration wrote report adl planning sessions demonstration copies reports disseminated bullock , among others , care san francisco adl office 1986 bullock learned consul general south african consulate los angeles would speaking las vegas meeting organized willis , head anti semitic liberty lobby consul general know willis , says fbi report , bullock suggested gerard might want warn south africans gerard agreed informed consul general , canceled appearance months later , gerard phoned bullock told south african intelligence officer wanted meet rendezvous hotel near fisherman 's , south african said interested acquiring information american anti apartheid activists south african , called mr humphries , also asked information groups advocating gerard , present throughout meeting , says fbi report , told humphries gerard employed cia humphries offered pay bullock 150 00 per month exchange information bullock noted much information humphries said wanted already possession bullock adl 1987 1991 , bullock sold information south african intelligence , receiving steady raises , split evenly gerard bullock said impression , though gerard never explicitly told , \( bullock never asked \) gerard may telling cia bullock 's contacts south africans , says fbi report gerard said knew cia san francisco , gerard dropped bullock bullock 's residence following meeting louie replaced humphries handler , gerard said going go san francisco cia office al , gerard may tasking bullock cia bullock recalled , met gerard , bullock went chicago , illinois conduct investigation behalf adl , says fbi report target investigation group called palestine human rights campaign bullock learned woman name deleted transporting money plo , united states bullock told gerard gerard later told bullock gerard 's would like know gerard asked bullock bullock would go back chicago gather information palestine human rights campaign bullock , however , never go back gerard also seems close relationship mossad , may started 1991 went adl israel adl frequently sponsors trips american law enforcement officials israel , meet counterparts various intelligence agencies according affidavit san francisco police inspector roth , expense paid trip israel less thank gift liaison gesture adl continue close relationships specific law enforcement officers united states gerard may liked saw israel short time travelling , went helped mossad 's rescue ethiopian jews gerard 's relationship south africa , talked openly exploits cia bullock recalled gerard mentioning algeria cia business , gerard discussed plo , ' says fbi report , louie responded israeli intelligence determined plo african national congress cooperating gerard also spoke travelled cia afghanistan louie also told gerard bullock adventures inside south africa intelligence officer gerard louie traded bullock tales ' although still much mystery triggered law enforcement 's investigation adl , probably theft classified fbi report nation islam fbi 's san francisco office police armed search warrants recovered report adl san francisco office gurvitz says sent copy mira boland , director adl 's fact finding division washington , c boland preparing op ed piece washington times , argued nation islam receive federal funds reconstruction l group anti semitic violence prone \( boland , arranged adl police israel attended gerard , testified 1990 criminal trial roanoke , virginia , worked cia 14 months later defense department joining adl trial , boland admitted sharing information cia official invitation adl conference \) questioned fbi last fall , gerard fled philippines , treaty america gerard believed supplied information police computers adl , israel south africa well san francisco examiner reported gerard may charged violating federal espionage laws although bullock worked adl 30 years , irwin suall praised july 1992 memo number one investigator , adl argues rogue agent defense , adl also asserts fact operate differently journalists , ask adl officials , n't journalists keep files \? difference practice journalism adl 's method gathering information could n't striking journalists place information public domain held accountable falsehoods , distortions , libel part , journalists n't share investigative files foreign domestic police agencies adl many files open public scrutiny , false information collected biased researchers cannot corrected proud human rights group , adl become jewish thought police adl says 's human rights group jews everyone , says chip berlet , highly respected researcher massachusetts based political research associates , monitors right wing extremist groups 's fine ca n't spy palestinians 's blatantly unethical frankly immoral argument people adl wears four hats hats independently appropriate broad based human rights group looks broad issues prejudice discrimination group defends jews defamation entirely noble nothing wrong hat group , whose leaders , least , consistently defend actions israel critics , entirely appropriate group maintains information sharing arrangement law enforcement , nothing wrong group ca n't four impossible four violate bounds ethics 's built conflict interest wear four hats adl national director abraham foxman apparently sees conflict september 1 , 1992 , letter voice , foxman complained adl proud 80 year record fighting bigotry promoting civil rights constitutional freedoms effort motive part smear stifle free speech anyone false baseless throughout pieces aipac 's spying , friedman describes dissemination information slander , existence files token inclination misleading several ways virtually every journalist , academic , politician organization keeps files subjects deem relevant tracing logic friedman 's reckless charges , library congress tantamount kgb moreover , public record public figure neither defamation many believe adl increasingly defamation business ask jesse jackson , james , leaders new jewish agenda past targets adl smears \( time , adl fascist world anti communist league , assisted ronald reagan 's covert war nicaragua , policy endorsed adl leaders \) early 1980s , researchers russ berlet asked meet fact finding head irwin suall , discuss work anti semite lyndon larouche view irwin suall really terrific investigator , says berlet introduce , say suall leans back chair basically runs us political activities , work , organizations belong obviously , trying blow us away succeeds sitting mouths open feeling uncomfortable leans forward says , 'the right wing n't problem left wing problem soviet union biggest problem world jews 's american left biggest threat american jews 're wrong track 're part problem ' virtually tears perceived basically stumbled letters \( response friedman 's article \) village voice , may 18 , 1993 , vol 20 league robert friedman 's assault anti defamation league anti defamation league spying may 11 demonstrates axe grind prejudiced biased agenda promote also demonstrates concern accurate reporting far list story inaccuracies , , outright falsehoods , conveys picture adl divorced reality friedman even wrong basic , easily determined facts adl founded \( chicago , new york \) building san francisco office located \( jewish community federation building \) adl done work fighting haters 80 years , without spying organizations individuals profound respect law mission monitor expose anti jewish , racist , anti democratic , violence prone , monitor primarily reading publications attending public meetings years , published scores reports anti semitism left right fact , although friedman 's bias leads assume contrary , adl 's primary concern still far right extremist organizations highly secretive , sometimes adl learn activities using undercover sources friedman 's hyperbole notwithstanding , sources function manner directly analogous investigative journalists performed great service american people example , uncovering existence right wing extremist training camps recognition considerable personal risk information adl obtains placed public domain , years adl established reputation accurate reporting friedman 's article , contrast , contains much misinformation would take article equally long set record straight examples states adl leader deeply involved jonathan pollard israeli spy operation , pollard 's handler 's wife worked new york adl lawyer true friedman also states adl investigators vans videotaped palestinian true elsewhere , asserts adl obsessed spying anti apartheid activists , true could go , course , friedman reveal sources distortion games friedman plays mentions numbers reveal lack objectivity comes much adl paid roy bullock week independent contractor , employee \( important distinction friedman also fails make \) includes zeros \( 75 00 , 150 00 \) , inviting reader see large number contrast , observes adl paid bullock nearly 170 , 000 1985 1993 , chooses point amounts little 20 , 000 year hardly excessive sum accurate friedman 's story chip berlet 's description adl 's four hats yes , adl looks broad issues prejudice discrimination yes , adl defends israel critics yes , adl maintains information sharing relationship law enforcement regarding extremist activities hate crimes see conflict four activities , believe voice readers wo n't either abraham foxman national director anti defamation league manhattan robert friedman replies adl compare investigative journalists absurd journalists n't spy arabs anti apartheid activists freely pass files south african israeli intelligence according police confessions two paid adl investigators , 700 pages court documents interviews , adl indeed , adl spies groups neither anti semitic violent police confiscated adl files hundreds mainstream groups ranging act peace respected intellectuals middle east scholars disagree adl 's political views ended adl , reputations smeared private organizations business paying operatives inside police departments spies , says april 17 editorial st louis post dispatch , condemning adl spying april 10 , police armed search warrants raided adl offices san francisco l concluding adl employees apparently less truthful voluntarily turning documents earlier search , according san francisco police inspector ron roth 's sworn affidavit roth also asserts bullock paid employee adl , failing pay taxes 170 , 000 income paid bullock , adl could face total 48 felony counts , according court papers adl may also face felony charges illegally obtaining confidential information police computers errors adl founded chicago , moved new york 1947 original tenant san francisco building shown voice photo , moving months ago never wrote adl leader deeply involved pollard israeli spy operation reported pollard made charge court papers , pollard 's lawyer said wife pollard 's handler worked adl bias , side first fourth amendments
jovanovic nick yale edu \( nick jovanovic \) subject please ! show washington dc bosnia \( may 15th \) organization yale university science engineering unix \( tm \) , new , ct 06520 2158 lines 14 distribution world nntp posting host minerva cis yale edu article venus haverford edu michael sells sells haverford edu writes find interesting mr major finds genocide two million muslims bosnia acceptable actually claiming 2 , 000 , 000 muslims killed b h \? \? \? please substantiate utterly ridiculous claim nick
f54oguocha edison usask ca subject europe vs muslim bosnians organization university saskatchewan lines 23 nntp posting host edison usask ca previous article , sadek cbnewsg cb att com \( mohamed sa senate condemening european lack action lack support us plans calling moral rape went say reason right religious bigotry mohamed , got say carnage genocide sudan \? two scenarios must viewed perspective n't think \? well , methinks flames intended ! ! ! oguocha mohamed
troy cc bellcore com \( c akgun \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians nntp posting host troy cc bellcore com organization bcr , nj usa lines 41 article 1993may12 alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) writes easy sen biden say us troops zepa existing un policy may wrong , us wants dictate policy , make europe responsible consequences policy bosnia big enough problem us preach countries forces forces safely tucked away home us gerald look nobody asked countries un forces ground take forces ineffective first place let whoever willing job takes anyone defend stinking un force ground let pm yanked un vehicle shot serbian military \? anyone defend un force watching shelling cities towns everyday \? anyone defend say stinking un forces effective bosnian almost 14 , 000 children casualties 5 14 age groups \? think talking current un forces bosnian muslims insult casualties think senator biden said said issue europe sad place criticize human rights anywhere world like biden said , bigots comes cultural difference closer home get rid minorities long long time ago starting 15th centuries let take care rest 20th century much naughty expected dared step many toes , spoil good thing serbs today thinking yesterday c akgun
cs ulowell edu \( shi \) subject without justice n't last last opportunity peace organization umass lowell computer science lines 63 article 1993apr30 nuscc nus sg nusunix1 nus sg \( ram \) writes peace talks resume middle east , would humbly like make personal observations prospects success failure 's stake present talks suspended 4 months israeli expulsion 400 palestinians alleged links extremist islamic organisation hamas future talks balance guaranteed concessions israel parties back negotiating table , stakes see indeed high future stability region perhaps world balance talks followed goodwill gesture israel involving return 30 exiled palestinians jordan occupied territories , however palestinians expelled december group constituted intellectuals professionals exiled '67 war political stand regarded dangerous choice arabs , support peace talks , illustrates dilemma faced israel arch enemies , ie plo backers seem willing talk peace new wave islamic sweeping middle east seen rise even foe banner hamas israel continues refuse talk plo , labelling terrorist organisation , window opportunity peace narrowing day present talks allowed without agreement long term lasting peace taken account interest involved , chances peace indeed plo , decision talks , reputation success talks longer talks continue , started 1 half years ago , without tangible progress , plo support territories urgently needed dramatic gesture , worked israel us approval could spur peace process force arabs palestinians vague promises interim government return territories evidently little late good might ask must israelis arabs make first substantive moves answer must lie support best talks receive among mass arab people fact israel holds important cards , namely land land peace agreement reached , real soon , chances comprehensive peace treaty good arabs , , recognise israel 's right exist inside secure borders , isreal would turn recognise legitimate right palestinians self statehood peace guarantee air tight treaties , region hope dwell economic social well population , rather prepare next war ram alternative peace department civil engineering war , annihilation national university singapore sg
cs ulowell edu \( shi \) subject gulf war ii media offensive organization umass lowell computer science lines 14 article seas smu edu pts seas smu edu \( paul thompson schreiber \) writes gulf war ii media offensive douglas kellner lies times , may 1993 gulf changed third parts 's perception arabs 1 , people tended think arabs tough character seeing iraqis begging surrender , people gave arabs much weight 2 people tended think arabs united people fighting isrealis gulf war , seeing arab nations iraqis order waiver debt u kuwaitis trying draw west nations hit iraq , people started see arab world dog cage , echoing sound barking
narain ih nxt09 cso uiuc edu \( nizam arain \) subject fraud elias davidsson reply narain uiuc edu organization university illinois urbana lines 7 mark ira kaufman writes responsibility posting quotes context phony 'research center' source , context , agenda ridden , propaganda ever seen take look mirror , mark
uxa cso uiuc edu \( \) subject stop cross postings organization university illinois urbana lines 16 phoenix princeton edu \( \) writes , repeat , , cross post following subjects soc culture iranian jews supports serbs arab leaders bosnia bosnia stage set 's need bigotry hate ! believe , already reached quota year try next year earth topics
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians organization university toronto chemistry department lines 51 article 1993may12 walter bellcore com troy cc bellcore com \( c akgun \) writes article 1993may12 alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) writes easy sen biden say us troops zepa existing un policy may wrong , us wants dictate policy , make europe responsible consequences policy bosnia big enough problem us preach countries forces forces safely tucked away home us look nobody asked countries un forces ground take forces well bosnia us un cannot impose blue berets country , us voted current policy mandate security council could said wanted veto clinton demanded removal un forces want cake eat wants dictate policy responsible policy wants dictate clinton asks blue berets leave , bill clinton becomes responsible happens sen biden friends want fight war 10 , 000 ft long blue berets clinton use europe american fully admit current un policy approved major powers including us may wrong inappropriate back seat drivers us like clinton biden bunch hypocrites looking gimmick look like something demanding action leadership european leaders smart enough know difference american hot air american leadership think senator biden said said issue europe sad place criticize human rights anywhere world like biden said , bigots comes cultural difference closer home well , biden outraged hell n't something resolution us senate declaration war commitment us forces troops biden full hot air gerald
tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) subject without justice n't last last opportunity peace nntp posting host orion oac uci edu organization university california , irvine lines 53 article 285 ulowell ulowell edu cs ulowell edu \( shi \) writes article 1993apr30 nuscc nus sg nusunix1 nus sg \( ram \) writes parties back negotiating table , stakes see indeed high future stability region perhaps world balance israel continues refuse talk plo , labelling terrorist organisation , window opportunity peace narrowing day present talks allowed without agreement long term lasting peace taken account interest involved , chances peace indeed plo , decision talks , reputation success talks longer talks continue , started 1 half years ago , without tangible progress , plo support territories land peace agreement reached , real soon , chances comprehensive peace treaty good arabs , , recognise israel 's right exist inside secure borders , isreal would turn recognise legitimate right palestinians self statehood peace guarantee air tight treaties , region hope dwell economic social well population , rather prepare next war ram see right , position influence enjoyed parties favoring negotiation process tenuous best local elections hebron plo expected win \( perhaps adding bit position legitimacy eyes palestinians middle east \) disrupted hamas actions overtly directed towards undermining \( west bank \) elections present ruling israeli labor coalition seems one rather thin political ice palestinian delegation reduced 14 three protest israel lack seriousness talks refusal reverse deportations immediately hopefully , however , parties begin learn fact negotiations taking place mean giving anything away side \( favorite argument \) let 's hope discusion inevitable disagreement major issues leads time agreement smaller interim \( phase , whatever term prefer \) steps taken tim clock ph graduate student uci tel 714 , 8565361 department politics society fax 714 , 8568441 university california irvine home tel 714 , 8563446 irvine , ca 92717
jaskew spam maths adelaide edu au \( joseph askew \) subject israel apartheid state \? organization statistics , pure applied mathematics , university adelaide lines 29 article 1993may12 das harvard edu adam endor uucp \( adam shostack \) writes article 2703 spam maths adelaide edu au jaskew spam maths adelaide edu au \( joseph askew \) writes question individuals standing party puts arab cabinet post arab rejected position given jew party talking power racism necessarily shai points , political appointments based power also based favors owed , coalition building , deal making actually sure understood said several occasions minor party put arab cabinet position major party \( labour case \) agreed minor party many seats party arab one acceptable major party insists minor party jew owed , deals done , settled remains exactly going sit cabinet party gets seat wants arab acceptable racism nothing politics joseph askew joseph askew , gauche proud autumn stillness , see pleiades , jaskew spam maths adelaide edu remote thorny deserts , fell grief disclaimer \? sue , see care north tents , sky must end somwhere , actually , rather like brenda beyond pale , river murmurs
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 76 article c6x81m ejf news cis umn edu prabhak giga cs umn edu \( satya prabhakar \) writes actually , strife yugoslavia goes back long way bosinan muslims , collaboration nazis , serbians first world war serbs muslims fresh case n't idea literature refer explicit statement document \? interpretation statements literature \? imagination nazi armenian propaganda movie script \? case , fascinating piece analysis facts source walker , christopher armenia survival nation new york \( st martin 's press \) , 1980 generally pro armenian work contains following information direct relevance nazi holocaust \) dro \( butcher \) , former dictator x soviet armenia architect genocide 2 5 million muslims , respected nazi armenian leaders , established armenian provisional republic berlin world war ii b \) government' fully endorsed espoused social theories nazis , declared armenians members aryan race ' c \) published anti semitic , racist journal , thereby aligning nazis efforts exterminate jews , \) armenian army 30 , 000 members fought side side wehrmacht fact , 1942 , nazi armenians europe established vast network pro german collaborators , extended two continents thousands armenians serving german army waffen ss russia western europe armenians involved espionage fifth column activities hitler balkans arabian peninsula promised state german agreement signed 'armenian national council ' \( copy agreement found record , ' november 1 , 1945 see document 1 \) side atlantic , nazi armenians aware alliance often expressed pro nazi sentiments america entered war 1941 , jews assembled doom nazi concentration camps , nazi armenians germany formed first armenian battalion fight alongside nazis 1943 , battalion grown eight battalions 30 , 000 strong command dro \( butcher \) , former dictator x soviet armenia architect cold blooded genocide 2 5 million turks kurds 1914 1920 armenian national council formed notorious dashnak party leaders berlin , recognized nazis encouraged , armenians summarily formed provisional government endorsed espoused fully principles nazis declared members aryan super race full participants hitler 's policy extermination jews armenian nazi conspiracy jews wwii encore performance staged armenians wwi , back stabbed exterminated 2 5 million muslims invading russian army serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject muslim women children openly massacred armenians reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 61 article news cso uiuc edu hovig uxa cso uiuc edu \( hovig heghinian \) writes copied months armenians \? come \? image conscious armenians sorely feel missing glory background armenians never achieved statehood independence , always subservient , engaged undermining schemes rulers committed genocide muslim populations eastern anatolia x soviet armenia world war fully participated extermination european jewry world war ii , genocide , back stabbing , hallmarks armenian history episodes armenians engaged history suit whims zeal tried cover cold blooded genocide 2 5 million turks kurds world war justice long source documents volume \( 1919 \) document 50 , archive 4 , cabin 162 , drawer 5 , file , section 433 , contents 6 , 6 1 , 6 2 \( division command militia commander ismail \) eight days , armenians forcibly people leaving homes going one village day night rounding male inhabitants , taking unknown destinations , nothing heard \( informed statements succeeded escaping wounded massacres around ruins \) women children openly murdered gathered church square similar places inhuman barbarous acts committed moslems eight days document 52 , archive 4 , cabin 163 , drawer 1 , file , section 440 , contents 6 6 , 6 7 \( 1st caucasian army corps command , 2nd caucasian army corps command , communications zone commander 3rd army general \) almost russian units opposite front withdrawn , population loyal us regions behind russian positions facing ever increasing threat suppression well cruelties abuses armenians decided systematically annihilate moslem population regions occupation regularly informed russian command atrocities cruelties gained impression authority seems failing restoring order serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 91 article n1 apollo hp com goykhman apollo hp com \( red herring \) writes 13th ss divison , made bosnian muslim volunteers , quite job former yugoslavia wwii folks 60 's 70 's makes wonder many occupy positions result watching anti muslim nazis crooks idiots much still covering crimes fascist armenian grandparents nazi armenian parents \? chance early 1934 , k papazian asserted armenians toward fascism ' 1 time , could foreseen armenians would actively assume pro german stance even collaborate world war ii book dealing armenian genocide muslim population eastern anatolia however , extreme ideological tendencies could observed within dashnagtzoutune long outbreak second world war 1936 , example , quoted 'hairenik weekly ' race force treasure follow history shall see races , due innate force , created nations secure insofar reverted race becoming nation today germany italy strong nations live breath terms race hand , russia comparatively weak bereft social 2 1 k papazian , perverted , ' \( boston , baikar press 1934 \) , preface 2 'hairenik weekly , ' friday , april 10 , 1936 , 'the race april 1942 , hitler preparing invasion caucasus number nazi armenian leaders began submitting plans german officials spring summer 1942 one paikhar , son former ambassador armenian republic baku paikhar wrote letter hitler , asking german support armenian national socialist movement suggesting creation armenian ss formation order educate youth liberated armenia according spirit nazi ideas wanted unite armenians already occupied territories ussr movement conquer historic turkish homeland paikhar confined serving nazis goebbels propaganda ministry speaker armenian french language radio 1 armenian language produced yet another nazi armenian 2 1 patrick von zur \( \) , p 106 2 meyer , j berkian , rhein und , 900 deutsch , ' \( heinz verlag oldenburg 1988 \) , pp 124 129 establishment armenian units german army favored general dro \( butcher \) played important role establishment armenian without assuming official position views represented men respective organs interesting meeting took place dro reichsfuehrer ss heinrich himmler toward end 1942 dro discussed matters collaboration himmler long conversation , asked could visit pow camp close berlin himmler provided dro private car 1 minor problem soviet nationals according official nazi philosophy , subject german racism however , armenians least threatened indeed privileged august 1933 , armenians recognized aryans bureau racial investigation ministry domestic affairs 1 meyer , berkian , ibid , pp 112 113 need go \? serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
f54oguocha edison usask ca subject europe vs muslim bosnians organization university saskatchewan lines 20 nntp posting host edison usask ca previous article , josip eng umd edu \( josip loncaric \) wrote actually , first world war , many muslims killed serbs serbian led regime two world wars , many croats also killed \( especially dictatorship introduced jan 6 , 1929 \) josip , please , n't offended question muslims bosnian context \? know moslem muslim believer islam islam religion practised many parts world , yes definitely , ethinic group ok ! , bosnian muslims , \? ethnic group belong \? language \( \) speak \? different language serbs croats \? way western press use word 'muslim' bosnian debacle kept wondering meaning muslim moslem knew childhood changed dictionary question flames intended ! oguocha
pgf5 cunixb cc columbia edu \( peter garfiel freeman \) subject fraud elias davidsson nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply pgf5 cunixb cc columbia edu \( peter garfiel freeman \) organization columbia university lines 18 article news cso uiuc edu narain uiuc edu writes mark ira kaufman writes responsibility posting quotes context phony 'research center' source , context , agenda ridden , propaganda ever seen take look mirror , mark whatever anyway , elias take look quotes find real , effective ways getting point across notice quotes recent buy clue , nazi man north pete
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 100 article apollo hp com goykhman apollo hp com \( red herring \) writes difference bosnian tribes treated said , one could draw parallel russians , serbs bosnia typical nazi racist armenian sdpa arf' criminal nazi armenians asala sdpa arf hate muslims ideological reasons regardless \? 1914 1920 , criminal armenian grandparents committed unheard crimes , resorted conceivable methods despotism , organized massacres , poured petrol babies burned , raped women girls front parents bound hand foot , took girls mothers fathers appropriated personal property real estate today , put azeris unbearable conditions nation ever known history source times , 2 march 1992 corpses litter hills karabakh anatol lieven comes fire flying azerbaijani forces investigate mass killings refugees armenian troops swooped low snow covered hills nagorno karabagh saw scattered corpses apparently , refugees shot ran azerbaijani film places flew , shown journalists afterwards , showed dozens corpses lying various parts hills azerbaijanis claim many 1000 died mass killing azerbaijanis fleeing town khodjaly , seized armenians last week 4 , 000 believed wounded , frozen death missing seven us cabin azerbaijani m24 attack helicopter flew investigate claims mass killings suddenly thump underside aircraft , red flash tracer ripped past starboard wing , helicopter rocked sharply swung round , deafening burst fire cannon wing helicopter crew returned fire fired armenian anti aircraft post swung round , tipped starboard appeared dive straight valley brown earth swooped around heads , helicopter swung round followed contours ground cannon fired repeated blasts later emerged civilian helicopter landed successfully east disputed enclave nagorno karabakh , pick dead , fact , attacked ground fire armenian helicopter seen armenian helicopter intermittently window , cannons firing , thought mistakenly side group western journalists search rescue flight become combat mission flight consisted civilian passenger helicopter two m24 soviet attack helicopters azerbaijani service , flying armour party second civilian helicopter 's job land mountains pick bodies sites mass killings attack helicopters give covering fire necessary operation showed striking sign disintegration soviet armed forces pilot russian officer azerbaijani official told us five former soviet military helicopters pilots fighting azerbaijan signed contracts fly us , said helicopter engaged combat probably flown brother officer russian pilot , fighting armenians taken 5pm saturday agdam , heated armenian controlled mountains karabakh , sheer white wall distance civilian helicopter picked four corpses , previous mission azerbaijani cameraman filmed several several dozen bodies took hurry speed back towards azerbaijani lines azerbaijani gunners last hill plain safety us passed back agdam , took look bodies civilian helicopter picked two old men small girl covered blood , limbs cold rigor shot russian pilot think tragedy , close shave , war nagorno karabakh \? gave us cheerful grin , politely declined answer ques tions , marched dinner serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject muslim women children raped massacred armenians reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 51 article marlin cs duke edu wiener duke cs duke edu \( eduard wiener \) writes culture russia proper , ukraine think attempts prove russians descendants finns , tatars , , croats iranians based speculation evidence always stick sdpa arf' made nose every discussion non points lies well , still anxiously awaiting source , ottoman empire , vol ii , p 188 atrocities massacres committed long time muslim population within armenian republic confirmed accurate information , observations made rawlinson , british representative erzurum , confirmed atrocities committed armenians united states delegation general seen thousands refugees came take refuge 's soldiers , hungry miserable , children wives , properties destroyed , delegation witness cruelties many muslim villages destroyed soldiers armenian troops armed cannons machine guns eyes 's troops people hoped operation would end , unfortunately since beginning february cruelties inflicted muslim population region , , , increased according documented information , 28 muslim villages destroyed aforementioned region , 2 , 000 people slaughtered , many possessions livestock seized , young muslim women taken kars , thousands women children able flee villages beaten , raped massacred mountains , aggression properties , lives , chastity honour muslims continued responsibility armenian government cruelties massacres stopped order alleviate tensions muslim public opinion due atrocities committed armenians , possessions taken muslims returned paid , properties , lives , honour muslims protected serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject many moslems killed , horrible tortures reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 25 source adventures near east rawlinson , jonathan cape , 30 bedford square , london , 1934 \( first published 1923 \) \( 287 pages \) \( memoirs british officer witnessed armenian genocide 2 5 million muslim people \) p 178 \( first paragraph \) moslem villages plain searched arms armenians everything taken cloak search , many moslems killed , horrible tortures inflicted endeavour obtain information valuables hidden , armenians aware existence , although unable find serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
melabdel cobra cs unm edu \( mohammed elabdellaoui \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians organization computer science department , university new mexico lines 34 article c6x81m ejf news cis umn edu prabhak giga cs umn edu \( satya prabhakar \) writes \( mohamed sadek \) writes like mr joseph biden say yesterday 5 11 93 senate condemening european lack action lack support us plans calling moral rape went say reason right religious bigotry actually , strife yugoslavia goes back long way bosinan muslims , collaboration nazis , serbians first world war serbs muslims fresh case ethnic cleansing another chapter continuing saga intense mutual hatred , destruction , taking sides perpetual war amount religious bigotry could helplessness regards bringing peace region even know meaning word satya prabhakar muslims helping nazis \? \? \? earth come accuusation \? \? proofs \? \? , publically apologize statement last time heard , nazis prided needing body carry politics ideologies statment true , n't think israel would used point muslim neighbor \( palestine \) could allowed \? jewish lobby power strong , said true , would heard could come dare say taking sides ! ! mohammed
kevin cursor demon co uk \( kevin walsh \) subject friends p , send greetings reply kevin walsh kevin cursor demon co uk organization cursor software limited , london , england lines 17 article oaf klosters ai mit edu oaf zurich ai mit edu writes message ucdavis edu nameless geek chip ucdavis edu writes oded feingold call dogs , babe 's , flesh , i'm wayne either , might want tuck quivering back catch woody allen outrage ! n't even dog course married ago , remember \? professor kevin walsh kevin cursor demon co uk
tti world std com \( joachim martillo \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians summary mohammed elabdellaoui moron organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 44 article cobra cs unm edu melabdel cobra cs unm edu \( mohammed elabdellaoui \) writes muslims helping nazis \? \? \? earth come accuusation \? \? proofs \? \? , publically apologize statement dope ! value mohammed elabdellaoui western university third worldist islamic brain rot made impossible acquire analyze facts appropriately history efforts mufti jerusalem serve nazis south balkans set muslim ss divisions well documented general , nazism leader principle well among muslim peoples khomeini 's concept recent example resonance fact , totalitarianism etymologically reasonable translation islam fair , mufti succeed getting large numbers muslims join ss rather small muslim ss unit manage commit attrocities disproportionate size also muslim people less enthusiastic attempt muslim leaders entice muslim people serve nazi cause actively turkish government ignored practically nazi even though alliance nazis soviet government would made great deal tactical sense last time heard , nazis prided needing body carry politics ideologies statment true , n't think israel would used point muslim neighbor \( palestine \) could allowed \? jewish lobby power strong , said true , would heard could come dare say taking sides ! ! yes , typical primitive muslim psychotic behavior upon hearing reading fact start whining jews jerk mohammed go back mindlessly stupid 3rd world country brain business civilized first world country joachim carlo santos martillo ajami
rchland vnet ibm com \( \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host daytona rchland ibm com organization ibm rochester lines 32 article world std com , tti world std com \( joachim martillo \) writes article cobra cs unm edu melabdel cobra cs unm edu \( mohammed elabdellaoui \) writes muslims helping nazis \? \? \? earth come accuusation \? \? proofs \? \? , publically apologize statement dope ! value mohammed elabdellaoui western university third worldist islamic brain rot made impossible acquire analyze facts appropriately go back mindlessly stupid 3rd world country brain business civilized first world country joachim carlo santos martillo ajami joachim restrained involvement flame wars comments however make long days flame warrior would hope would refrain idiotic slander \( formerly madison \) p might drop formerly become old madison note standard disclaimer
khalid bunce hw stratus com \( khalid chishti \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians organization stratus computer , inc lines 72 nntp posting host bunce hw stratus com look nobody asked countries un forces ground take forces ineffective first place let whoever willing job takes anyone defend stinking un force ground let pm yanked un vehicle shot serbian military \? anyone defend un force watching shelling cities towns everyday \? anyone defend say stinking un forces effective bosnian almost 14 , 000 children casualties 5 14 age groups \? think talking current un forces bosnian muslims insult casualties think senator biden said said issue europe sad place criticize human rights anywhere world like biden said , bigots comes cultural difference closer home get rid minorities long long time ago starting 15th centuries let take care rest 20th century much naughty expected dared step many toes , spoil good thing serbs today thinking yesterday c akgun infact tuesday , bosnian foreign minister asked formally un leave bosnia , show much europe called un actually helping serbs carry murders rapes zepa un effectively helped serbs carry heinous crimes spreading conflicting reports nothing going cowards , called un peacemakers , attempted go fact finding mission ham radio operators lying us war planes means flying biggest farce history world act repeated different bosnian towns yes ! heard today president bosnia pressure civilized nations appealed un stay bosnia know better \( sadly ! includes clinton administration \) came said call referendum bosnian serbian \( bunch rapists criminals \) farce yet wait result referendum act us commit ground troops , fine lift arms embargo sides \( since know serbs always got heavy weapons form federal army \) wake west ! ! admit uncivilized , violent bunch earth khalid disclaimer opinions nothing employers
morris jay cs yale edu \( jay morris \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians lines 58 nntp posting host zoo gw cs yale edu organization yale university computer science dept , new , ct 06520 2158 article 1993may12 alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) writes article 3xd cbfsb cb att com sadek cbnewsg cb att com \( mohamed sadek \) writes like mr joseph biden say yesterday 5 11 93 senate condemening european lack action lack support us plans calling moral rape easy sen biden say us troops zepa true existing un policy may wrong , us wants dictate policy , make europe responsible consequences policy merit entirely true bosnia big enough problem us preach countries forces forces safely tucked away home us gerald last statement true according cbo united states force 88 , 000 us army personel europe , know includes division norway available little 500 usaf attack aircraft , including various models f 111 , 10 , f b , f 4s 1 , 000 available , safely tucked away home one time , us maintained 1500 half relocated persian gulf know us least one aircraft carrier battle group nearby probably marine assault brigade anyone know b 52 b england \? point , although us ground troops bosnia , true american forces safely camped outside st louis also understand administration planning position troops macedonia reaction \? question day yesterday heard serbia montenegro imposed additional trade sanctions bosnian serb rebels morning npr reported bridge \( sp \? \) verified bread truck allowed pass bosnia serbian happened muslim , stated months ago vehicle even slowed station everyone stopped searched , many turned back course heard translators version , speak serbo croatian effort part serbia montenegro whatever reason push accepting v , good thing \? peace , jay morris
benali alcor concordia ca \( ilyess b bdira \) subject egypt cuts phone lines independent muslim states keywords international , non usa government , government , intelligence , politics , religion nntp posting host alcor concordia ca organization concordia university , montreal , canada lines 26 clarinews clarinet com \( \) writes cairo , egypt \( upi \) despite reports evidence contrary foreign ministry spokesman wednesday denied knowledge measures taken egyptian authorities restrict telephone contacts states linked muslim militants state cia control called state linked terrorism militants fundamentalists etc meanwhile even egyptian experts hate islamic movement admit happening egypt spontaneous time reaction government reports , one israeli radio iranian official news agency , , said week cairo disconnected telephone lines iran , sudan , pakistan asked telephone communication restrictions represented new measure egyptian authorities ibrahim agreed anybody see contradiction first paragraph \? anybody know upi original article 's title \? comes egypt , human rights , ethics , principles ignored western media wonder \?
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians organization university toronto chemistry department lines 40 article suned zoo cs yale edu morris jay cs yale edu \( jay morris \) writes also understand administration planning position troops macedonia reaction \? macedonia said yesterday neither requested needs forces sort like sending national guard bel air riot south central ! obviously , clinton trying make policy image purposes america rather try deal real problem assume share responsibility problem obviously n't even consult macedonians looking map former yugoslavia safest place put american troops could say europeans hey , look , troops ground former yugoslavia let bomb make look like something american media problem blue berets bosnia dead meat clinton starts bombing , clinton n't courage ask blue berets leave , becomes primarily responsible bosnian policy un allies clinton wants cake eat wants feel free use american military power sake domestic us politics domestic image , n't want assume primary international leadership role un among allies , like bush , faults , gulf war leadership comes responsibility , clinton seems want retain europeans clinton wants leave europeans charge responsible , wants side gets hot , wants able cut run american public may easily fooled european leaders n't gerald
benali alcor concordia ca \( ilyess b bdira \) subject mufti \? meanwhile support genocide bosnians nntp posting host alcor concordia ca organization concordia university , montreal , canada lines 24 let remind muslim haters like mention mufti 's cooperation germany reason let muslims slaughtered everywhere world following facts 1 \) blame muslims nazis forgive italy , croats , many europeans real allies hitler \? 2 \) blame muslims supporting germany enemy enemy time \( britain middle east responsible atrocities muslims region \) forgive germany eventhough one created nazism \? 3 \) far muslims concerned difference nazi germany , britain france 1940 racist , anti arab , full arrogance hate wwii wars algeria , sudan , places proved clearly even anti semitism spread germany france britain , happened official policy germany forgive , set countries free arguments wwii behaviour coming people killed millions war \( either side \) plain laughable enough said
benali alcor concordia ca \( ilyess b bdira \) subject saudi clergy condemns debut human rights group ! keywords international , non usa government , government , civil rights , social issues , politics nntp posting host alcor concordia ca organization concordia university , montreal , canada lines 34 looks like ben baz 's mind heart also blind , eyes used respect , today lost minimal amount respect struggled keep muslim netters guy gave fatwah saudi arabia used united attack iraq fatwah legitimate one kind clergy , might islamic duty separate religion politics , religion means official clergy cairo , egypt \( upi \) cairo based arab organization human rights \( aohr \) thursday welcomed last week committee defense legal rights saudi arabia said necessary groups operating arab countries london based saudi owned al al daily newspaper reported thursday dispatch riyadh higher council ulema \( muslim scholars \) wednesday unanimously proclaimed formation group illegitimate unacceptable statement issued saudi capital , council , saudi arabia 's highest religious authority , said proclaims illegitimate creation committee endorsing kingdom saudi arabia guided god 's \( law \) islamic courts widespread nationwide '' statement said one kingdom prevented taking grievances courts concerned authorities ``the authors bulletin \( announcing founding committee \) well aware '' council 21 senior , ended session tuesday sheikh abdel aziz ben baz , warned formation group consequences , '' elaborate declarations treaties protecting human rights , concerning discrimination women
jama austin ibm com \( jama \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians originator jama austin ibm com reply jama austin ibm com organization ibm advanced workstation systems division lines 33 article 13may93 02285380 edison usask ca , f54oguocha edison usask ca writes previous article , josip eng umd edu \( josip loncaric \) wrote actually , first world war , many muslims killed serbs serbian led regime two world wars , many croats also killed \( especially dictatorship introduced jan 6 , 1929 \) josip , please , n't offended question muslims bosnian context \? know moslem muslim believer islam islam religion practised many parts world , yes definitely , ethinic group ok ! , bosnian muslims , \? ethnic group belong \? language \( \) speak \? different language serbs croats \? way western press use word 'muslim' bosnian debacle kept wondering meaning muslim moslem knew childhood changed dictionary question flames intended ! oguocha indeed different usage word muslim bosnia , less used ethnic term religious one people bosnia refer christian bosnian muslims make sense bosnian serbs bosnian muslims language bosnian muslims mainly islam got bosnian muslim friend mine goes university texas austin jama
prabhak giga cs umn edu \( satya prabhakar \) subject please ! show washington dc bosnia \( may 15th \) nntp posting host giga cs umn edu organization university minnesota , minneapolis , csci dept lines 38 michael sells sells haverford edu writes fresh case ethnic cleansing another chapter continuing saga intense mutual hatred , destruction , every place earth scene saga mutual hatred destruction holocaust fresh case another chapter 900 year history attacks jews europe n't make acceptable balkan history make genocide bosnian muslims acceptable guess acceptable germany also chose path aggression simultaneously put interests countries peril wonder whether us countries would risked jews persecuted hitler imperialist ambitions \( student history asking questions \) even moment think ethnically motivated violence killings , dead wrong let assure question powerful countries moral obligation countries interests threatened cite essay charles time \( week \) discusses issue eloquently example , us european countries abandon moral chose send military troops bombay hindus , rare fit rage , killed many muslims recently think ! conditions us interfere countries , abstraction one must clarify resorting accusations religious bigotry satya prabhakar
prabhak giga cs umn edu \( satya prabhakar \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians nntp posting host giga cs umn edu organization university minnesota , minneapolis , csci dept lines 27 \( mohammed elabdellaoui \) writes muslims helping nazis \? \? \? earth come accuusation \? \? proofs \? \? , publically apologize statement last time heard , nazis prided needing body carry politics ideologies statment true , n't think israel would used point muslim neighbor \( palestine \) could allowed \? jewish lobby power strong , said true , would heard could come dare say taking sides ! ! reference 4 page essay local star tribute newspaper putting whole conflict perspective readily admit authority area however , asserted muslims join hands croats nazis persecuting serbs case , past actions way validate legitimize sincerely apologize extent author essay wrong making assertion made maybe , student history may put perspective satya prabhakar
sean cs yale edu \( sean philip \) subject please ! show washington dc bosnia \( may 15th \) organization yale ai mobile robotics project lines 41 distribution world reply sean cs yale edu nntp posting host fridge ai cs yale edu article news2 cis umn edu , prabhak giga cs umn edu \( satya prabhakar \) writes michael sells sells haverford edu writes fresh case ethnic cleansing another chapter continuing saga intense mutual hatred , destruction , every place earth scene saga mutual hatred destruction holocaust fresh case another chapter 900 year history attacks jews europe n't make acceptable balkan history make genocide bosnian muslims acceptable guess acceptable germany also chose path aggression simultaneously put interests countries peril wonder whether us countries would risked jews persecuted hitler imperialist ambitions \( student history asking questions \) actually , record allies activities , face evidence nazis \( may rot hell \) , clearly points conclusion would done nothing camps bombed , despite ease us , place refuge allowed bare jews europe , primarily public relations , government could say something many ships refugees turned away us shores found refuge cuba south america , many others sunk return europe \( predictable consequences \) hope today collectively learned lesson , less ignore internal affairs sad reality seem case sean philip \( \) yale department computer science box 2158 yale station new , ct 06520
utoronto ca \( senad \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians organisation u toronto , dept mechanical engineering organization uoft mechanical engineering lines 24 jovanovic nick yale edu \( nick jovanovic \) writes article mojo eng umd edu josip eng umd edu \( josip loncaric \) writes conditions , easy serbs play divide conquer game , get muslims croats \( strong common serbs divided croatia bosnia attempted yugoslavia , ripping 2 , 000 , 000 serbs property yugoslavia croats divided , least 70 , 000 left serbian province muslims divided , 200 , 000 left region belongs serbia serbs croatia bosnia want self determination , right given croats muslims , serbia serbia exempted \? nick senad
michael sells sells haverford edu subject please ! show washington dc bosnia \( may 15th \) organization haverford college lines 49 distribution world nntp posting host 130 58 172 17 x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d20 x xxdate thu , 13 may 93 12 09 32 gmt subject please ! show washington dc bosnia \( may 15th \) nick jovanovic , jovanovic nick yale edu date 12 may 1993 17 19 43 0400 article minerva cis yale edu nick jovanovic , jovanovic nick yale edu writes article venus haverford edu michael sells sells haverford edu writes find interesting mr major finds genocide two million muslims bosnia acceptable actually claiming 2 , 000 , 000 muslims killed b h \? \? \? please substantiate utterly ridiculous claim , i'm claiming 2 , 000 , 000 killed middle genocide process mr major given yet another green light mladic seems wants , getting appetite mladic refuses allow international observers inspect mass grave sites killing centers places like , , , years accurate account number killed practical terms , would impossible kill 2 , 000 , 000 n't kind machinery gas chambers transportation lines nazis took 8 years develop remember , nazis killed minorities countries occupied actually kill 42 population requires extreme genocidal organization claim goal genocide systematic annihilation bosnian muslim culture , killing many feasible , rape , torture , demolition mosques , libraries , culture , burning renaming villages , shelling civilians wo n't 2 , 000 , 000 muslims whose lives shattered genocide , though still may alive mr major finds acceptable , helps along making sure victims n't arms defend nick mike michael sells , department religion , haverford college haverford , pa 19041 1392
javad hplabsz hpl hp com \( mash javad \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians organization ye sar e lines 65 article 1993may13 alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) writes problem blue berets bosnia dead meat clinton starts bombing , clinton n't courage ask blue berets leave , becomes primarily responsible bosnian policy un allies clinton wants cake eat wants feel free use american military power sake domestic us politics domestic image , n't want assume primary international leadership role un among allies , like bush , faults , gulf war leadership comes responsibility , clinton seems want retain europeans one ridiculous arguments heard europeans let 's let serbs massacre , rape , ethnically clean 100 , 000 bosnians n't want pretty blue berets get scratched well , say , get hell 're worried , n't deny bosnians basic right self defense ! lift embargo bosnia , let defend makes un troops valuable bosnian people \? letting civilians die soldiers could survive , anything , way around idiots like owen expect bosnians swallow forced plan , hope problem go away well 're wrong got butts gear \( , bosnia oil \) year ago , much could prevented , however , results tragedy last generations 's like forcing jews make peace hitler yeah right , senator biden said , bigotry , makes decent human matter , quite sick europeans , americans , take ask support backyard , americans today 's bosnia , tomorrow macedonia , greece , turkey , damn thing spread mention european muslims n't even practicing rally fundamentalism good luck handling , majesty ! owen upset question compared chamberlain , hoped appease hitler said chamberlain munich 2 years war , blazing war last 18 months well , makes even worse , chamberlain could least argued i'm giving germany benefit doubt , whereas owen ca n't even west aiding serbs tying hands , making stupid excuse powerless troops ground , ca n't even protect bosnian foreign minister armored vehicle , watch killers walk away ! kind peace \? kind civilization \? clinton wants leave europeans charge responsible , wants side gets hot , wants able cut run american public may easily fooled european leaders n't european leaders pathetic , helping genocide even able forget yeah , 'll go africa fight damn dictator former colony , 'll go kuwait fight oil , bosnia wo n't fight aggression , 'll even tie hands victim tell fooling gerald mash javad
michael sells sells haverford edu subject europe vs muslim bosnians organization haverford college lines 58 distribution world nntp posting host 130 58 172 17 x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d20 x xxdate thu , 13 may 93 13 08 52 gmt subject europe vs muslim bosnians f54oguocha date 13 may 93 02 28 53 gmt article 13may93 02285380 edison usask ca , f54oguocha edison usask ca writes previous article , josip eng umd edu \( josip loncaric \) wrote actually , first world war , many muslims killed serbs serbian led regime two world wars , many croats also killed \( especially dictatorship introduced jan 6 , 1929 \) josip , please , n't offended question muslims bosnian context \? know moslem muslim believer islam islam religion practised many parts world , yes definitely , ethinic group ok ! , bosnian muslims , \? ethnic group belong \? language \( \) speak \? different language serbs croats \? way western press use word 'muslim' bosnian debacle kept wondering meaning muslim moslem knew childhood changed dictionary question flames intended ! oguocha 've asked crucial question underlies much genocide bosnian muslims slavic ethnicity speak serbo croatian slavic ideology whereby true slavs christian anyone converted islam thereby must changed ethnicity changing religion see novels displays attitudes part calls people \( e christian slavs \) reason , war criminals call bosnian muslims turks even though ethnically turk speak turkish first language reason , actually genocide labeled ethnically identical religiously called , paradoxically , ethnic cleansing rather religious cleansing thus , war serbs croats continuation wwii , older agenda , annihilation islam muslims bosnian , carried cover serbo croat war regards , mike michael sells , department religion , haverford college haverford , pa 19041 1392
david bitnet subject error condition originator tpm israel nysernet org reply bitnet organization nysernet lines 4 want subscribe , located israel name david
josip eng umd edu \( josip loncaric \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians organization project glue , university maryland , college park lines 79 nntp posting host orbit src umd edu article 13may93 02285380 edison usask ca f54oguocha edison usask ca writes please , n't offended question muslims bosnian context \? bosnian muslims citizens od bosnia herzegovina identify bosnian muslim cultural religious tradition know moslem muslim believer islam islam religion practised many parts world , yes definitely , ethinic group ok ! , bosnian muslims , \? ethnic group belong \? language \( \) speak \? different language serbs croats \? bosnia , muslim merely religious category , ethnic one well actually , two contradictory arguments made people subject \( 1 \) serbian croatian nationality , bosnian muslims simply croats serbs islamic faith \( 2 \) bosnian muslims separate nationality since feel croats serbs 1968 , argument \( 2 \) accepted former yugoslavia valid , \( 1 \) soundly rejected reasons pragmatic even bosnian muslims croats serbs converted islam turkish rule centuries ago , none present generation clue ancestor 's actual nationality fact , although bosnian muslims felt drawn croatian serbian national allegiance , feel separate cultural historic identity , arguments like yes , ancestors croats serbs carry little weight regardless ancestors might , long bosnian muslims feel separate national group , ends debate outsiders say simply relevant way western press use word 'muslim' bosnian debacle kept wondering meaning muslim moslem knew childhood changed dictionary question flames intended ! case former yugoslavia , date 1971 , muslim nationality appeared census category first time result sequence decisions past decade , recognizing ethnic group \( 1961 \) february 1968 resolution \( b h \) declaring muslims separate nation , formal endorsement january 1969 , eventually 1971 inclusion muslim nationality choice census forms comparison , 1948 census three national categories available muslims bosnia herzegovina serb muslims 71 , 991 croat muslims 25 , 295 muslims , ethnically undeclared 788 , 403 clearly demonstrates muslims feel nationality tiny minority felt able choose serb croat nationality census results show bosnian muslims consistently opted third category 1948 chose undeclared , 1953 chose , 1961 ethnic group , 1971 , 1981 1991 chose muslim nationality perhaps term bosnian muslim nationality confusing rest world , present context , talking muslims nationality religous group within separate national identity reasons mostly historical cultural religion plays smaller role , part culture general , area simply known religious fanaticism political fanaticism , yes religious fanaticism , group security survival dominate people 's thinking fine points theology fact , bosnia herzegovina well known religious tolerance peacetime known terrible carnage wartime sincerely , josip
hik se \( henrik \) subject opinion poll ! lines 31 organization university net citizens ! desperate try save last course university writing study net , started , people living , however trying explain basics works includes , reader message would grateful could get answers following questions 1 many years known internet existed \? 2 often use net \? \( occasions per month \) 3 \? \( hobby , profession , \) 4 access net \? \( university , profession , friends , private \) 5 net taken roles media played \? \( telephone , newspapers , tv , girlfriend \) 6 newsgroups type information take part \? 7 male female \? 8 age \? time 9 's future visions net \? limits possibilities 10 think hope law censorship change time ahead \? also want apologize taking much bandwidth request spread 60 newsgroups , chosen random , , know , term end closing , panic spreads email address hik se hik se sincere respect may force ! peter henrik
troy cc bellcore com \( c akgun \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians nntp posting host troy cc bellcore com organization bcr , nj usa lines 21 article pep transfer stratus com khalid bunce hw stratus com \( khalid chishti \) writes us commit ground troops , fine lift arms embargo sides \( since know serbs always got heavy weapons form federal army \) wake west ! ! admit uncivilized , violent bunch earth khalid also easy blame west real bosnian suffering moslem world , 1 billion \? ha \? stop massacre \? oil rich arab states make bosnian national interest west , especially europeans \? know night , n't \? blaming west asking n't put life danger seems choice muslims think sleeping west wide awake trying save face c akgun
josip eng umd edu \( josip loncaric \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians organization project glue , university maryland , college park lines 63 distribution world nntp posting host orbit src umd edu article venus haverford edu michael sells sells haverford edu writes thus , war serbs croats continuation wwii , older agenda , annihilation islam muslims bosnian , carried cover serbo croat war annihilation islam \( turks \) older serbian agenda strongly dispute notion croats similar older agenda , fact , past century two , croats muslims seen lot common , generally friendly relations suggestion croat muslim relationship anything like serb muslim relationship completely wrong say croats muslims lot common imply separate peoples events past two years clearly show muslim determination remain separate alliance croats , maintained separation croats would accepted much closer relationship , think century plus building bridges two friendly peoples risk , logic war since bosnian serbs \( 32 population \) 10 times heavy weapons bosnian muslims \( 44 \) croats \( 17 \) combined , squeezed muslims croats 30 territory muslims lost territory croats \( built defenses early \) conditions , alliance bound fall apart since easier recover lost land croats serbs thing keeping check hope reversal fortunes foreign military intervention lifting arms embargo since warren christopher luck persuading europeans go along , hope dashed prospect outside help , former allies turned , like two animals tight cage logic , course , got plenty help serbian intelligence operatives , everything build mistrust croats muslims year timely intervention stop serbian aggression would prevented sadly , nothing done create balance power ground long serbs enjoy 10 1 advantage , break alliance , even among friends tragic , hardly new divide et used ancient romans success view , bosnian muslims croats managed resist divisive strategy reasonably well may 9 , 1993 , hope reversal fortunes lost question distinguished diplomats believe balkan peoples experimental cannon fodder \? 'd like know expect decided enforce arms embargo serbian 10 1 advantage heavy weapons expect prevent fragmentation muslim croat defense forces earth hope restore peace without justice \? implications immoral approach cannot begin predict , filled sincerely , josip
subject mufti \? meanwhile support genocide bosnians yaakov kayman yzkcu cunyvm bitnet unm edu world std com benali alcor organization city university new york university computer center lines 6 condemn mufti nazi leanings , condemn supporters , also condemning similarly genocidal killing innocents , muslim , herzegovina \? hatred bigotry remain , matter practices yaakov k \( internet yzkcu cunyvm cuny edu \)
jovanovic nick yale edu \( nick jovanovic \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians organization yale university science engineering unix \( tm \) , new , ct 06520 2158 lines 25 nntp posting host minerva cis yale edu article utoronto ca utoronto ca \( senad \) writes croats divided , least 70 , 000 left serbian province muslims divided , 200 , 000 left region belongs serbia croats divided , croatia yugoslavia croats croatia , b h , serbia one country yugoslavia divided muslims divided , b h yugoslavia muslims croatia , b h , serbia one country yugoslavia divided croats muslims yugoslavia decided divide give right divide serbs yugoslavia croatia b h shoulder burden dividing nations among various unstable countries nick
cs ulowell edu \( shi \) subject egypt cuts phone lines independent muslim states keywords international , non usa government , government , intelligence , politics , religion organization umass lowell computer science lines 9 article benali alcor benali alcor concordia ca \( ilyess b bdira \) writes clarinews clarinet com \( \) writes comes egypt , human rights , ethics , principles ignored western media wonder \? pretending knowing \? obedient west must evil !
cs colostate edu \( erol \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians nntp posting host mozart cs colostate edu organization computer science department , colorado state university lines 45 article 13may93 02285380 edison usask ca f54oguocha edison usask ca writes previous article , josip eng umd edu \( josip loncaric \) wrote actually , first world war , many muslims killed serbs serbian led regime two world wars , many croats also killed \( especially dictatorship introduced jan 6 , 1929 \) josip , please , n't offended question muslims bosnian context \? know moslem muslim believer islam islam religion practised many parts world , yes definitely , ethinic group ok ! , bosnian muslims , \? ethnic group belong \? language \( \) speak \? different language serbs croats \? way western press use word 'muslim' bosnian debacle kept wondering meaning muslim moslem knew childhood changed dictionary question flames intended ! oguocha mr oguocha , muslims bosnian context fact turks fact , correct wrong , serbs attacking bosnians battle cries death turks ! shocking \? years communism apparently suppressed hatred anger towards turks hatred obviously one dies hard serbs must understand , turks longer good old world come know propaganda propaganda serbs must understand barbarism work serbs must even understand barbarism would one day face counter barbarism , urge people serbs stop killing bosnian women children must never forget turks watching patiently cordially , erol mozart cs colostate edu
jovanovic nick yale edu \( nick jovanovic \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians organization yale university science engineering unix \( tm \) , new , ct 06520 2158 lines 32 distribution world nntp posting host minerva cis yale edu article venus haverford edu michael sells sells haverford edu writes 've asked crucial question underlies much genocide bosnian muslims slavic ethnicity speak serbo croatian slavic ideology whereby true slavs christian anyone converted islam thereby must changed ethnicity changing religion muslim ex yugoslavia nation religion fact , muslims b h followers islam therefore , \( \? \) exist ex yugoslavia christian muslims tito defined muslim nation constitutionally , adding muslims serbs , croats , , three founding nations entered voluntary union end wwi addition , tito added two nations constitutionally , nations right secession , republics , muslim much political term religious term \( differentiate religion politics , \) b h slavic ideology made muslim nation yugoslavia , atheist communist ideology tito tito , muslim nation yugoslavia war religious war , ethnic war civil war terms secession negotiated guns instead pens croat , muslim , serb political leaders chose fight terms secession instead compromising peacefully negotiating multilateral secession agreements nick
ahmed shakil cs yale edu \( shakil waiz ahmed \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians organization yale university computer science dept , new , ct 06520 2158 lines 38 distribution world nntp posting host curie cs yale edu article 1sueslinna6g minerva cis yale edu , jovanovic nick yale edu \( nick jovanovic \) writes muslim ex yugoslavia nation religion fact , muslims b h followers islam therefore , \( \? \) exist ex yugoslavia christian muslims yeah ! 's ! \) 've really outdone time nick n't forget davidian muslims \) islam race 's religion white , black , fijian alaskan guess n't absorb much malcolm x interest circulating see , whole point islam stresses equality amongst peoples , realize difficult comprehend given staunch beliefs serbian ethnic cleansing , give try , 's really difficult war religious war , ethnic war 's right , 's disneyland war setup tv cameras also people believe man never landed moon , whole apollo story done tv studios civil war terms secession negotiated guns instead pens croat , muslim , serb political leaders chose fight terms secession instead compromising peacefully negotiating multilateral secession agreements terms secession \? , course , joking , right nick \? nobody chose fight bosnia croatia internationally recognized nations serbs attacked started well documented genocide makes outside aggressor 's simple genocide , classical example ethnic cleansing question civil war shakil
eng sun com \( reddy \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians organization sun lines 48 nntp posting host article edison usask ca f54oguocha edison usask ca writes previous article , sadek cbnewsg cb att com \( mohamed sa senate condemening european lack action lack support us plans calling moral rape went say reason right religious bigotry mohamed , got say carnage genocide sudan \? two scenarios must viewed perspective n't think \? well , methinks flames intended ! ! ! oguocha mohamed noticed screaming shouting , one person brought question atrocities commited non muslims government could africans cares \? suggest everyone cut hypocrisy bosnia go discuss something even meaningless report shows acting finest traditions islamic law die hard people net \( shall remain nameless \) sudan government troops women , washington government troops sudan involved massacres , kidnapping transporting forced labor libya , according state department document declassified wednesday report compiled u embassy said government forces , particularly arab militias organized popular defense forces , routinely steal women children southern sudan women girls kept wives , others shipped north perform forces labor \( central sudan \) farms , notably libya , said
dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) subject heroes cowards karabakh armenians summary fight survival keywords typo correction organization p center regional studies lines 28 article 1993may13 urartu sdpa org dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) wrote dd taking sides leaves one state perpetual dd sides issue logic given time dd armenian partisan definition however , give obviously goes evidenced context dd license lie , cover , revise events question read dd usenet postings agents turkish government understand dd sides issue , mean advocate sides dd suits position would make hypocrite also dd paid agents turkey azerbaijan many proponents dd azeri side refer agents international group , dd ltd , paid excess 30 , 000 month azerbaijan state case dd advocacy prostitution thanks mr cg david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org armenia learned lesson p center regional studies anatolia forgotten p box 382761 punishment inflicted 4 14 93 cambridge , 02238 late turkish president turgut ozal
dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) subject five russian soldiers sentenced death azerbaijan organization p center regional studies lines 53 may 13 , 1993 five russian soldiers sentenced death azerbaijan moscow \( upi \) five soldiers served russia 's 7th army stationed armenia sentenced death azerbaijani capital baku thursday allegedly carrying diversions killing 30 azeri soldiers statement released news service azeri president elchibey said sentence final subject protest appeal , russian state news agency itar tass reported russian foreign ministry issued appeal men handed authorities moscow punishment would accord modern standards humanity towards committed crimes , statement reads five men , together another soldier received 15 year prison sentence , captured september 1992 azeri police district azerbaijan , nagorno karabakh armenia supreme court baku said men gone special training company russian 7th army armenian capital yerevan , sent across armenian azeri border nagorno karabakh carry diversions azeri troops however , russian foreign ministry statement claimed russian army fighting mercenaries armenian armed forces battle zone round karabakh nagorno karabakh armenian populated enclave within azerbaijan five years fighting independence baku war left many thousands dead hundreds thousands homes yerevan baku always claimed russian servicemen stationed caucasian republics , left behind break soviet union , fighting mercenaries karabakh war statement moscow said russian side repeatedly appealed azerbaijani government show humanity leniency treatment six men , hand russian authorities said president boris yeltsin sent letter request azeri counterpart elchibey itar tass said soldiers' defense attorneys appeal david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org armenia learned lesson p center regional studies anatolia forgotten p box 382761 punishment inflicted 4 14 93 cambridge , 02238 late turkish president turgut ozal
narain ih nxt09 cso uiuc edu \( nizam arain \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians reply narain uiuc edu organization university illinois urbana lines 26 reddy writes report shows acting finest traditions islamic law die hard people net \( shall remain nameless \) washington government troops sudan involved massacres , kidnapping transporting forced labor libya , according state department document declassified wednesday report compiled u embassy said government forces , particularly arab militias organized popular defense forces , routinely steal women children southern sudan women girls kept wives , others shipped north perform forces labor \( central sudan \) farms , notably libya , said people may claim muslim , actions reported , actually happened , 180 degrees opposite islam stands , , one , condemn nizam arain makes universe \( 217 \) 384 4671 hard comprehend internet narain uiuc edu nothing nextmail narain sumter cso uiuc edu compare
eng sun com \( reddy \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians organization sun lines 53 nntp posting host article curie cs yale edu ahmed shakil cs yale edu \( shakil waiz ahmed \) writes article 1sueslinna6g minerva cis yale edu , jovanovic nick yale edu \( nick jovanovic \) writes muslim ex yugoslavia nation religion fact , muslims b h followers islam therefore , \( \? \) exist ex yugoslavia christian muslims yeah ! 's ! \) 've really outdone time nick n't forget davidian muslims \) islam race 's religion white , black , fijian alaskan guess n't absorb much malcolm x interest circulating see , whole point islam stresses equality amongst peoples , realize difficult comprehend given staunch beliefs serbian ethnic cleansing , give try , 's really difficult white knight islam rides ! instant expert religion , race ethnicity door ! stand back let 's going single rescue islam dastardly mistakes , misquotes , misconceptions war religious war , ethnic war 's right , 's disneyland war setup tv cameras also people believe man never landed moon , whole apollo story done tv studios civil war terms secession negotiated guns instead pens croat , muslim , serb political leaders chose fight terms secession instead compromising peacefully negotiating multilateral secession agreements terms secession \? , course , joking , right nick \? nobody chose fight bosnia croatia internationally recognized nations serbs attacked started well documented genocide makes outside aggressor 's simple genocide , classical example ethnic cleansing question civil war shakil occur thing bosnian serbs n't necessarily outsiders \? 're , could please little bit islamic pals sudan running south , kidnapping women children , essence , thing \? come n't hear wonderful 's happening \?
arf genesis mcs com \( jack schmidling \) subject news missed organization mcsnet subscriber , chicago , il lines 12 nntp posting host localhost mcs com article bony1 bony com jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) writes article 1993may7 175730 12246 ncsu edu hernlem chess ncsu edu \( brad hernlem \) writes , , british , iranians uae refer occupied territory , mean territory dispute israel affairs \? suppose reason jews call occupied territory , judea 's called propaganda repeat lies often enough , people start believe js
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 69 article apb news2 cis umn edu prabhak giga cs umn edu \( satya prabhakar \) writes reference 4 page essay local star tribute newspaper putting whole conflict perspective readily admit authority area however , asserted muslims join hands croats nazis persecuting serbs case , past actions best evidence find second hand hearsay unnamed source \? may indeed confusing muslims nazi armenians altogether 30 , 000 nazi armenians served various units german wehrmacht , according ara j berkian 14 , 000 predominantly armenian army units , 6 , 000 german army units , 8 , 000 various working units 2 , 000 waffen ss 1 number nazi armenians volunteers france , greece , rumania bulgaria chosen commit german war effort derounian says dashnag armenians france bore mark ' 2 nazi armenians like dro 'the sided germans probably impact decision armenians overwhelmingly opted armed service 1 meyer , j berkian , rhein und , 900 deutsch , ' \( heinz verlag oldenburg 1988 \) , pp 118 119 2 john roy carlson \( arthur derounian \) , 'the armenian displaced persons , ' ibid , p 19 fall 1942 , armenian infantry battalions 808 809 formed , followed battalions 810 , 812 813 spring 1943 second half 1943 infantry battalions 814 , 815 816 created battalions together indigenous caucasian units attached infantry division 162 also attached id 162 field battalions ii 9 , 125 198 formed may 1942 may 1943 altogether twelve armenian battalions served nazi army , battalion ii 73 , employed time , included 1 battalions commanded nazi armenian officers armenians wore german uniforms dashnag colours red blue orange inscription ' 1 joachim , 1941 1943 , , und im , ' \( verlag freiburg 1976 \) , p 172 collaborated nazis stalin second world war , nazi armenians changed policy hitler 's defeat backed stalin 's claims eastern turkish provinces , hoping would annexed soviet armenia muslim population would exterminated stalin played armenian national sentiments support armenians ussr america imperial ambitions 1 stalin 's ultimatum turkish government led truman formulate famous doctrine 1 walter , soviet union , ' \( london , macmillan co ltd new york , st martin 's press 1961 \) , pp 160 164 serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 92 article mojo eng umd edu josip eng umd edu \( josip loncaric \) writes \( 1 \) soundly rejected reasons pragmatic even bosnian muslims croats serbs converted islam turkish rule centuries ago , none present generation clue ancestor 's actual nationality fact , although forced disagree first , one may born non turkish , non muslim parent outside turkish land , yet still turk , provided person calls turk designation turk genetic feature , racial religious feature matter identifying turkish values secondly , following observations westerners written french ahmet turks behaved like christians use force convert islam nations brought power , one could opposed , today would eastern problem turks obeyed word koran permit everybody worship way centuries frederick great pronounced famous thus , age christian europe shed christian blood people europe enjoyed inflicting inhuman tortures upon whose beliefs differed , ottoman empire became sole country inquisition exist , deaths stake unheard accusations witchcraft made barbarian \( ! \) turkey country jews persecuted chased away everywhere christians , could find asylum facts demonstrate muslim countries provided spiritually far better living conditions christian countries 1 turks , conquering nation , nations came rule instead , respected religions traditions stroke luck romania live turkish rule instead russian austrian rule otherwise would romanian nation today \( \) turks rule people administration externally , without interfering internal structures account , autonomy minorities turkey better complete advanced european countries 2 human beings hate account religious differences flaw older islam christianity never examples turkey turks never oppress anybody account religion enmity basis religion case simple contempt among us , keep translating action , many nations europe would probably considered happy ! \( de \) 3 turkey never became scene religious terror cruelty inquisition contrary , served asylum unfortunate victims christian fanaticism look history , see fifteenth century thousands jews expelled spain portugal found good asylum turkey descendants living calmly approximately three hundred years , forced defend countries cruelty christians , especially jew able appear public easter celebrations athens , even today turkey , however , israelites insulted greek armenian communities , local courts immediately take protection vast calm country sultan , religions nations living together peacefully although mosque superior church synagogue , replace , catholic sect free istanbul smyrna compared paris addition fact law turkey prohibits open air ceremonies sect , neither law imprison cross church dead taken graves , long line priests bear candles chant catholic hymns priests churches districts go streets form clerical eucharist celebrations , hymns bearing crosses religious banners , detachment soldiers escorts forces even turks stand respect around group priests \( \) 4 1 ah , gore turkler , 3rd ed \( istanbul , 1978 \) , pp 70 71 2 ibid , p 91 3 ibid , pp 214 215 4 ibid , pp 215 216 serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject jews constantly went fear armenian greek attacks reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 163 article news cso uiuc edu ptg2351 uxa cso uiuc edu \( panos tamamidis \) writes simply want , thing greeks turkey turkish state recognize crimes greek minority , pardon \? history shows within last 170 years , greeks played game twice used istanbul patriarch instigate morea rebellion resulted massacres muslim people , orthodox patriarch constantine v invited russian czar nicholas ii invade ottoman empire 'in name jesus , ' save flock ottoman rule source medieval modern greek culture , , ed , kai , ' vol \( , calif , 1978 \) p 161 words professor , savage , greeks sang words 'let turk remain morea , whole world ' greeks determined achieve way knew war religious extermination leader ashkenazi community corlu complained president aiu alliance israelite universelle 1902 persistent greek attacks jewish quarter ''the fanatic greeks city , places thrace , habit , contrary spirit real christianity , making replica judas burning night holy saturday construct wooden figure , cover clothing claim ancient jews , burn publicly middle multitude ignorant fanatic often happens multitude , already excited tales suffering christ made church , appearance execution supposed betrayed christ , works great anger jews long time known year , day , cut heads arms corpses cemetery burn great make complaint order create differences two communities audacious madness fanatics increased see flames hear cries hatred vengeance jews '' 42 42 ashkenazi community , corlu , aiu , 2 may 1902 , aiu archives \( paris \) ii c 8 , report printed el 1 may 1902 source professor stanford j shaw , 'the jews ottoman empire turkish republic , ' new york university press , new york \( 1991 \) pages 202 203 , immediately new organic statute jewish community , jewish capital europe beginning effect istanbul , local armenians greeks started pogrom jews immediately across sea , terminus anatolia railroad , three hundred jews massacred many beaten raped disturbance stopped sultan sent personal guard across bay protect jews 39 later years , ritual murder attacks jews , carried mostly native greeks , armenians , , arab provinces , arab christians , often assistance local european consuls , took place throughout empire literally thousands incidents continuously world war , southeastern europe far west north , istanbul , dardanelles , salonica , arab provinces far south damascus beirut egypt cairo alexandria invariably resulted accusations spread among ottoman christians word mouth , published newspapers , often christian merchants anxious get jewish competitors way divert onto jews muslim anger reports christian massacres muslims southeastern europe central asia , resulting individual mob attacks jews , burning shops homes individual experiences horrible jews constantly went fear armenian greek attacks streets ottoman cities egypt syria , usually greeks led way , many cases assistance local armenians syrian christians , whose greek , arabic french language newspapers often printed rumors could find regarding jews , evidently desire violence syrian arab christians particular spread long standing anti semitic hatreds syria egypt , monopoly local press popular causes egyptian nationalism opposition british rule , enabled spread anti jewish message among muslim masses little question opposition 20 june 1890 , thus , sir evelyn \( later lord \) , british high commissioner egypt , received following report david , cairo , beg sir draw attention violent articles \( sic \) appeared arabic paper called el contained nothing lies false accusations jews , especially \( issues \) 14th , 17th 19th instant , sir , anti semitic party amidst fanaticism , greeks , armenians , etc , allowed continue poison people 's minds exaggeration painted words \? article , asserted jews use christian blood passover , course caused deal excitement '' 40 whenever greek orthodox religious authorities prominent greek business leaders consuls asked help stem violence reduce tension , invariably indicated cooperation failed anything prevent attacks punish stimulated led 41 leader ashkenazi community corlu complained president aiu alliance israelite universelle 1902 persistent greek attacks jewish quarter ''the fanatic greeks city , places thrace , habit , contrary spirit real christianity , making replica judas burning night holy saturday construct wooden figure , cover clothing claim ancient jews , burn publicly middle multitude ignorant fanatic often happens multitude , already excited tales suffering christ made church , appearance execution supposed betrayed christ , works great anger jews long time known year , day , cut heads arms corpses cemetery burn great make complaint order create differences two communities audacious madness fanatics increased see flames hear cries hatred vengeance jews '' 42 39 el , 28 april 1926 galante , istanbul , 185 galante , documents v , 340 41 40 fo 78 430 , enclosed 207 lord , cairo , 25 june 1890 , reprinted landau , murder , p 450 41 jacob landau , murder accusations persecutions jews nineteenth century , v \( 1961 \) , 425 427 example see report bulletin de israelite universelle serie \( paris \) , first 1881 , pp 66 67 galante also reported similar difficulties greek religious leaders teaching rhodes 42 ashkenazi community , corlu , aiu , 2 may 1902 , aiu archives \( paris \) ii c 8 , report printed el 1 may 1902 serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject baltic states realism 'virvir' drivel reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 131 article 1993may13 husc3 harvard edu harvard edu \( mikhail \) writes mental disease patient repeats sentence response kind outside intrusion \? mutlu similar symptomatic , anyway difference bigger database level understanding , dear friend mutlu probably thought 'd nice help genocide apologist get point besides , article reflects abundant ignorance ignorance probably main reason historical revisionist mess even make nazi criminal armenians laugh soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul power tear away veil illusion us create certainly possible severe artificial life support system imagined 'ethnic purity' us falsely trust structure support heart beats alien land \( sahak melkonian 1920 preserving armenian purity \) appropriate analogy jewish holocaust might systematic extermination entire muslim population independent republic armenia consisted least 30 40 percent population republic memoirs armenian army officer participated eye witnessed atrocities published u 1926 title 'men like ' references abound \( rachel bortnick jewish times june 21 , 1990 \) 1 men like leonard hartill , bobbs co , indianapolis , 1926 memoirs armenian army officer translated english published member american near east relief organization gives whole account genocide turkish moslem people armenia organized executed armenian government army also gives account countless massacres atrocities turkish people armenia 2 adventures near east rawlinson , dodd , meade co , 1925 eyewitness account genocide british army officer 3 world alive , personal story robert dunn , crown publishers , inc , new york , 1952 another eyewitness account genocide american officer 4 sardarapat serves lousanne avetis aharonian , armenian review magazine , volume 15 \( fall 1962 \) 17 \( spring 1964 \) memoirs chief armenian delegate paris peace conference published armenian review magazine 13 articles volume 15 \( fall 1962 \) volume 17 \( spring 1964 \) memoirs include interview aharonian british foreign minister lord curzon mentioned genocide discussed official report mentioned lord curzon report british high commissioner , sir oliver wardrop turks kurds wherever find whatever circumstances find turkish children also killed form danger armenian nation ' \( hamparsum 1914 \) 1 1 varandian , history dashnaktsutiun , p 85 source hovannisian , richard g armenia road independence , 1918 university california press \( berkeley los angeles \) , 1967 , p 13 addition kars batum oblasts empire increased area transcaucasia 130 , 000 square miles estimated population entire region 1886 4 , 700 , 000 , 940 , 000 \( 20 percent \) armenian , 1 , 200 , 000 \( 25 percent \) georgian , 2 , 220 , 000 \( 45 percent \) moslem latter group , 1 , 140 , 000 tatars paradoxically , barely one third transcaucasia 's armenians lived erevan guberniia , christians constituted majority three seven uezds erevan uezd , administrative center province , 44 , 000 armenians compared 68 , 000 moslems time russian census 1897 , however , armenians established scant majority , 53 percent , guberniia risen 1916 60 percent , 670 , 000 1 , 120 , 000 inhabitants impressive change province 's ethnic character notwithstanding , , eve creation armenian republic , solid block 370 , 000 tartars continued dominate southern districts , outskirts ereven border persia \( see also map 1 historic armenia map 4 administrative subdivisions transcaucasia \) 1920 , '0' percent turk closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape tartars proceeded work extermination troops surrounded village village little resistance offered artillery knocked huts heaps stone dust villages became untenable inhabitants fled fields , bullets bayonets completed work tartars escaped course found refuge mountains succeeded crossing border turkey rest killed whole length borderland russian armenia nakhitchevan akhalkalaki hot plains ararat cold mountain plateau north dotted mute mournful ruins tartar villages quiet , villages , except howling wolves jackals visit paw scattered bones dead ohanus appressian men like p 202 serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject traditional historical armenian barbarism fascism reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 23 5 apr 93 moscow \( upi \) ``it 's horrible people trying get wives children , men leaving defense positions , 's total anarchy , '' said , spokesman azerbaijani president said 210 people three quarters civilians , rest government soldiers killed 200 wounded assault armenian fighters serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject unspeakable crimes x soviet armenian government must reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 88 article 1993may14 news uiowa edu mau herky cs uiowa edu \( mau napoleon \) writes greeks like turks us plan us let improve one , nearly one thousand years , turkish kurdish people lived homeland last one hundred oppressive soviet armenian occupation persecutions culminated 1914 armenian government planned carried genocide muslim subjects 2 5 million turks kurds murdered remainder driven homeland one thousand years , turkish kurdish lands empty turks kurds survivors found safe heaven turkiye today , x soviet armenian government rejects right turks kurds return muslim lands occupied x soviet armenia today , x soviet armenia covers genocide perpetrated predecessors therefore accessory crime humanity x soviet armenia must pay crime genocide muslims admitting crime making reparations turks kurds turks kurds demand right return lands , determine future nation homeland occasion , reiterate justice restitution turkish kurdish rights demand x soviet armenian government admit responsibility turkish kurdish genocide , render reparations muslim people , return land rightful owners recognition genocide become issue cannot delayed , imperative artificial obstacles created political manipulations removed believe time come demand united states formally recognizes turkish kurdish genocide , principles demands refuses armenian pressures contrary taxpayers united states , express vehement protest present u government policy continued , protection unqualified assistance towards x soviet armenia territorial demands strictly aimed x soviet armenia 's source sardarapat sevres lausanne avetis aharonian armenian review , vol 16 , 3 63 , autumn , sep 1963 , pp 47 57 p 52 \( second paragraph \) three chiefs , dro , hamazasp kulkhandanian bands destroyed tartar villages staged massacres zangezour , surmali , etchmiadzin , zangibasar intolerable look pointed file official documents table look , december reports last months concerning ruined tartar villages representative wardrop sent official tartar communique speaks destruction 300 villages p 54 \( fifth paragraph \) yes , course repeat , massacre tartars stopped three chiefs removed military leadership hardly think supply arms ammunition armed bands led dro , hamazasp kulkhandanian past months raided destroyed many tartar villages regions surmali , etchmiadzin , zangezour , zangibasar official charges massacres serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
jaskew spam maths adelaide edu au \( joseph askew \) subject israel apartheid state \? quite distribution world organization statistics , pure applied mathematics , university adelaide lines 182 article early bird think com shaig think com \( shai guday \) writes article 2703 spam maths adelaide edu au , jaskew spam maths adelaide edu au \( joseph askew \) writes please cite specific examples arab party member rejected jewish party member accepted look bottom article see kindly dug one yigal arens previous postings \( entirely without permission , hope n't mind \) containing translations detailing case perhaps think lies \? would like provide assurance practise never occurs \? examine sure discover arab party member power base jewish counterpart right , arabs voting israel long \? time one arab ever gained enough personal following get fellow party members put ministry \? likely wings flying rio basis explaining odd failure \? seem confident right , exactly know , sure \? , arguments sake , arab israelis vote labor next election , rest assured number arab mks cabinet members would increase proportionately power shift exactly basis saying labour party never put arab cabinet post insists coalition members \? basis reassuring face 50 years discriminatory practise \? overlooking fact wield political power individuals based upon wider collective power base hey \? \? said even party puts get knocked back surely could n't arabs \? reasoning see work purely political far security goes think serious made right wing jews well e g sharon well yes , security reason often given people want make excuses merely thought would crop pre empted start article \( mine dr arens \) comments square brackets mine yigal front , july 29 , 1992 translation ha'aretz article racism knesset coalition requirements one hand , presence progressive mks coalition , compelled rabin friends change , extent , attitude towards arab public representatives knesset although refuse view partners , taking part coalition joining government , agree meet give document intentions included commitment work towards decrease discrimination jewish arab citizens decrease \? ! \? ! posters told us time discrimination exist ! rabin , , closet self hater \? \? \? yigal however , racism disappeared knesset sat consider would staff various committees , request made put mk communist party , one arab parties yigal state 's committee oh , ever stir storm including ranks labor since many knesset members find unthinkable arab mk sit one important house committees security secrets liable fall hands attitude recently even criticism , natural deeply upon people 's hearts holds knesset members , despite elected tens thousands votes , entitled full partners body represents people israel speaking political discrimination would bad enough racial discrimination proof one compromises proposed mk mahamid arab yigal replaced jew yigal party member 's party considered unfit , race documented case respected israeli newspaper worth noting first time since state 's founding , public debate arisen subject , witness following article test self confidence levi , ha'aretz , july 26 , 1992 revelations discrimination arabs become integral part daily routine much effort made deal hear , \? please contact levi fellow explain little knows israel please ! yigal except sometimes demon bursts behind government 's window dressing , phenomenon seven times serious last week provided two examples israeli knesset finding difficult allow arab representation important committees israel television finding less difficult give platform arabs territories seemingly two entirely different matters , fact one 13th knesset proved last week , even though one third members new faces , renewed face , least one issue parliamentary traditions may parliamentary traditions may become obsolete , one tradition forever arab shall set foot important committees house never never arab mk external affairs defense committee finance committee worlds overturned question whether give arabs , first time , place state 's committee arguments old well known three committees secrets revealed woe unto us arab hear one must make light arguments , significance also exaggerated every arab mk spending time waiting moment hand information knesset committee room black panther headquarters aforementioned committees continually occupied discussion top secret matters , could safely revealed , example , mks supportive jewish underground , arab mk likud , labor , even arabs would probably membership subcommittee secret service matters , would happen , one may ask , mk hear , god forbid , review foreign minister open meeting foreign affairs defense committee , even review army chief staff , case , regularly leaked next edition news would happen mk mahamid report seen eyes al \? non participation important committees colleagues , creates intolerable situation , arab members elected house semi positions good enough addressing sessions , voting government participating deliberations immigration absorption committee must , example , participate process formulating state budget finance committee allocation resources local authorities case , little part labor 's dependence support arab parties brought improvement mk mahamid , , seems , participate state 's committee earlier , ridiculous attempt made dictate representative , thus prevent arab entering dubious holy , soon became clear legal constitutional backing step worry even jewish mind devices new committee chair , milo , already announced set aplenty committee thus decide permissible mahamid participate solution could , way , also adopted rest committees , thereby completely eliminating fear state secrets leaked enemy removing stain discrimination knesset end article accept documentation \? joseph askew joseph askew , gauche proud autumn stillness , see pleiades , jaskew spam maths adelaide edu remote thorny deserts , fell grief disclaimer \? sue , see care north tents , sky must end somwhere , actually , rather like brenda beyond pale , river murmurs
melabdel cobra cs unm edu \( mohammed elabdellaoui \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians organization computer science department , university new mexico lines 75 article world std com tti world std com \( joachim martillo \) writes article cobra cs unm edu melabdel cobra cs unm edu \( mohammed elabdellaoui \) writes muslims helping nazis \? \? \? earth come accuusation \? \? proofs \? \? , publically apologize statement dope ! value mohammed elabdellaoui western university third worldist islamic brain rot made impossible acquire analyze facts appropriately reason value brainless shit brains asshole self hating bastard neither name ideas , 've come across thought stupid respond , prove first worldist claim civility history efforts mufti jerusalem serve nazis south balkans set muslim ss divisions well documented general , nazism leader principle well among muslim peoples khomeini 's concept recent example resonance fact , totalitarianism etymologically reasonable translation islam fair , mufti succeed getting large numbers muslims join ss rather small muslim ss unit manage commit attrocities disproportionate size also muslim people less enthusiastic attempt muslim leaders entice muslim people serve nazi cause actively turkish government ignored practically nazi even though alliance nazis soviet government would made great deal tactical sense give sources read shut think take ignorant words \? \? last time heard , nazis prided needing body carry politics ideologies statment true , n't think israel would used point muslim neighbor \( palestine \) could allowed \? jewish lobby power strong , said true , would heard could come dare say taking sides ! ! yes , typical primitive muslim psychotic behavior upon hearing reading fact start whining jews jerk nothing primitive islam except mind read live daily facts , ask prove last time checked , truly 1st worldist civilized approach facts figures whine jews , merely stated fact thet strange nobody far jerk , fuck \( sorry people read \) mohammed go back mindlessly stupid 3rd world country brain business civilized first world country home fuck face name mean somewhere else , except stupid brain names , particularly seem 1st worldist ajami \? \? 's \? arabic \? \? said must ashamed must really hate n't ass hole \? \? mohammed joachim carlo santos martillo ajami
astein nysernet org \( alan stein \) subject without justice n't last last opportunity peace organization nysernet , inc lines 18 seems , keep peace talks going , israel keep making goodwill gesture goodwill gesture , palestinian arabs continue go around hunting jews peace talks going realistic chance success , arabs going start , especially since ones getting tangible concessions return giving intangibles keep trying change already agreed upon rules , seems one favorite games , israelis likely confident intangibles receive bargaining table worth 're written takes two negotiate peace 's time arabs start share alan h stein astein israel nysernet org
melabdel cobra cs unm edu \( mohammed elabdellaoui \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians organization computer science department , university new mexico lines 39 article apb news2 cis umn edu prabhak giga cs umn edu \( satya prabhakar \) writes \( mohammed elabdellaoui \) writes muslims helping nazis \? \? \? earth come accuusation \? \? proofs \? \? , publically apologize statement last time heard , nazis prided needing body carry politics ideologies statment true , n't think israel would used point muslim neighbor \( palestine \) could allowed \? jewish lobby power strong , said true , would heard could come dare say taking sides ! ! reference 4 page essay local star tribute newspaper putting whole conflict perspective readily admit authority area however , asserted muslims join hands croats nazis persecuting serbs case , past actions way validate legitimize sincerely apologize extent author essay wrong making assertion made maybe , student history may put perspective satya prabhakar thank much position source apologies accepted good faith absolutely attempt bring knees , merely suggestion really check sources throwing flame net thanx mohammed
tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) subject peace talks nntp posting host orion oac uci edu organization university california , irvine lines 38 article 1993may13 nysernet org astein nysernet org \( alan stein \) writes seems , keep peace talks going , israel keep making goodwill gesture goodwill gesture , palestinian arabs continue go around hunting jews know putting something like newsgroup going generate flames , discussion try adding substance issue gestures mentioned peace talks going realistic chance success , arabs going start , especially since ones getting tangible concessions return giving intangibles feel israel offered gesture \? would \( realistically \) expect see presented arabs palestinians way gesture \? keep trying change already agreed upon rules , seems one favorite games , israelis likely confident intangibles receive bargaining table worth 're written rules bent arab actions \? would seem israeli deportations seen side example changing rules takes two negotiate peace 's time arabs start share alan h stein astein israel nysernet org tim clock ph graduate student uci tel 714 , 8565361 department politics society fax 714 , 8568441 university california irvine home tel 714 , 8563446 irvine , ca 92717
hernlem chess ncsu edu \( brad hernlem \) subject egyptian arrested mock threat blow iran 's paris mission reply hernlem chess ncsu edu \( brad hernlem \) organization ncsu chem eng lines 27 copyright 1993 france france headline egyptian arrested mock threat blow iran 's paris mission paris body paris , april 16 \( afp \) egyptian man held police bay several hours outside iranian embassy , threatening blow building protest terrorism fundamentalism man thirties , identified egyptian national , displayed banner outside embassy gate said possession several sticks dynamite threatened set later quietly police blocked neighborhood , saying wanted attract media attention dangers islamic fundamentalism
clmn ellis uchicago edu \( bill coleman \) subject israeli destruction mosque \( \) jerusalem reply clmn midway uchicago edu organization live direct downtown israel lines 26 article eggertj moses mit edu eggertj mit edu writes cases n't really comparable project like freeway requires public hearings , court action , appeals , advance determination restitution , razing moghrabi district east jerusalem happened within hours end hostilities 6 day war residents given two three hours' notice pack find elsewhere chance public hearing , debate , appeal , negotiation anything get die rubble today 's jerusalem post magazine feature story ongoing restoration synagogues jewish quarter author , leah , writes fifty seven synagogues quarter 1948 , destroyed , , says , used donkey building shells , still find really , really hard understand demolition buildings front continues outrage everything much cheaper happens jews \? bill coleman clmn midway uchicago edu
khalid bunce hw stratus com \( khalid chishti \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians organization stratus computer , inc lines 56 nntp posting host bunce hw stratus com article pep transfer stratus com khalid bunce hw stratus com \( khalid chishti \) writes us commit ground troops , fine lift arms embargo sides \( since know serbs always got heavy weapons form federal army \) wake west ! ! admit uncivilized , violent bunch earth khalid c akgun writes also easy blame west real bosnian suffering moslem world , 1 billion \? ha \? stop massacre \? oil rich arab states make bosnian national interest west , especially europeans \? know night , n't \? blaming west asking n't put life danger seems choice muslims think sleeping west wide awake trying save face please , read post carefully , saying lift arms let muslims defend point civilized countries neither want get intervene militarily like see muslims world help oppressed \( remember happened almost one year ago called un discovered iranian jet bosnia ! \) west indifferent matter siding serbs keeping embargo muslim side \( okay paper sides \) khalid disclamer opinions nothing employer newsgroups soc culture arabic , soc culture , soc culture indian , soc culture iranian , soc culture jewish , soc culture pakistan , soc culture turkish , soc culture yugoslavia , soc culture , talk politics mideast , soc culture african , soc subject europe vs muslim bosnians summary expires distribution organization stratus computer , inc keywords
aa824 cleveland freenet edu \( mark ira kaufman \) subject synagogues , mosques , double standards organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 64 nntp posting host slc5 ins cwru edu bill coleman writes \( responding discussion mosque jerusalem allegedly destroyed israel \) bc today 's jerusalem post magazine feature story bc ongoing restoration synagogues jewish quarter author , bc leah , writes fifty seven synagogues bc quarter 1948 , destroyed , , says , used bc donkey building shells , bc bc still find really , really hard understand demolition bc buildings front continues outrage bc everything much cheaper happens jews bc bc \? double standard human behavior regarding jews must perfect example outcry temporary removal 400 men advocated murdering jews destroying state israel , compared deafening silence abusive treatment jews arab countries past 50 years compare tacit world gives muslims randomly murder jewish civilians righteous indignation expressed people occupied territories kept working israel effort reduce random murders occuring , everyone knows country required accept foreign workers , except israel , course jewish blood always cheap non jewish world ha never regarded form jewish suffering important , except jews models powerless victim holding high moral ground , world war 2 however , soon jewish people started take care , ancient hatred jews unleashed doubt non jewish world even capable compassion towards jews anti semitism ancient basic christianity islam golda meir said would peace arabs love children hate jews know arab parents love children would send children streets throw rocks men trained defend guns , world obsessed hatred jews trying defend yet even question actions parents simply allow children , encourage throw harm 's way even arab children expendable , tragic deaths used propoganda battle blame israel , jews , misfortune arabs middle east jew \? person whose integrity decays unmoved knowledge wrong done people j heschel
jovanovic nick yale edu \( nick jovanovic \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians organization yale university science engineering unix \( tm \) , new , ct 06520 2158 lines 58 distribution world nntp posting host minerva cis yale edu article curie cs yale edu ahmed shakil cs yale edu \( shakil waiz ahmed \) writes article 1sueslinna6g minerva cis yale edu , jovanovic nick yale edu \( nick jovanovic \) writes muslim ex yugoslavia nation religion fact , muslims b h followers islam therefore , \( \? \) exist ex yugoslavia christian muslims yeah ! 's ! \) 've really outdone time nick n't forget davidian muslims \) islam race 's religion white , black , fijian alaskan change fact muslim legal political term defined constitutionally former yugoslavia , therefore meaning consequences entirely independent immaterial religious considerations civil war terms secession negotiated guns instead pens croat , muslim , serb political leaders chose fight terms secession instead compromising peacefully negotiating multilateral secession agreements terms secession \? , course , joking , right nick \? nobody chose fight bosnia croatia internationally recognized nations serbs attacked started well documented genocide makes outside aggressor 's simple genocide , classical example ethnic cleansing question civil war wish 2 , 000 , 000 residents croatia b h accepted terms secession tudjman unilaterally forced upon croats muslims may right negotiated secession right grab entire territories former yugoslav republics croatia b h oh , btw , yugoslavia internationally recognized destroyed tudjman , , milosevic , international community led germany yugoslavia 's borders could changed , certainly croatia 's borders b h 's borders changed well stated many times civil war ex yugoslavia end terms secession \( borders , etc \) croatia b h finally agreed upon serbs , croats , muslims make territorial concessions reach agreement nick
cs uiuc edu \( \) subject please ! show washington dc bosnia \( may 15th \) reply prabhak giga cs umn edu 's message thu , 13 may 1993 15 55 41 gmt organization university illinois , dept comp sci , urbana , il 73k venus haverford edu news2 cis umn edu lines 51 article news2 cis umn edu prabhak giga cs umn edu \( satya prabhakar \) writes guess acceptable germany also chose path aggression simultaneously put interests countries peril wonder whether us countries would risked jews persecuted hitler imperialist ambitions \( student history asking questions \) n't think would u one countries turned away jewish refugees still time get \( considered rejected cabinet level \) conditions us interfere countries , abstraction one must clarify resorting accusations religious bigotry understand , international law provides right country intervene prevent genocide think world court ruled genocide committed human rights czar appointed u n , could international monitors recording events responses local officials develop objective basis could backed international court justice enforcement rapid deployment force u n secretary general 's command would like see u n directly impose rulings whenever feasible \( without possibility vetos un security council much president ca n't veto u supreme court ruling \) u supporting effort appoint hr czar third world opposition led three countries , china , iran pakistan \( company pakistan keeping ! \) u also opposition u n force initially charter \( although control security council \) un sc quite flawed body rogue governments like prc even threatened veto last months block move place u n troops bosnia chapter 7 instead 11 \( numbers straight \) could moved monitoring enforcement force without requiring sc action \( prc even continues threaten using veto u n action despite ruling current set requires sc enforce rulings \) peace ,
gfeygin unicorn eecg toronto edu \( feygin \) subject news missed organization electrical computer engineering , university toronto lines 31 article genesis mcs com , arf genesis mcs com \( jack schmidling \) writes article bony1 bony com jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) writes article 1993may7 175730 12246 ncsu edu hernlem chess ncsu edu \( brad hernlem \) writes , , british , iranians uae refer occupied territory , mean territory dispute israel affairs \? suppose reason jews call occupied territory , judea 's called propaganda actually judea samaria proper geographical names , like asia minor lake michigan judea samaria even used atlas published \( used \) ussr circa 1970 home government ussr course quite hostile towards israel would hardly engage pro israel propaganda would willing mail photocopy relevant page mr schmidling relevant words underlined simplify search , promises report net afterwards repeat lies often enough , people start believe mr schmidling living exception general rule although almost without peer number lies posted number times repeats n't found many people believe lies \( yet \? \) js g feygin
shaig think com \( shai guday \) subject israel apartheid state \? quite organization thinking machines corporation , cambridge , usa lines 107 distribution world nntp posting host composer think com article spam maths adelaide edu au , jaskew spam maths adelaide edu au \( joseph askew \) writes article early bird think com shaig think com \( shai guday \) writes article 2703 spam maths adelaide edu au , jaskew spam maths adelaide edu au \( joseph askew \) writes examine sure discover arab party member power base jewish counterpart right , arabs voting israel long \? time one arab ever gained enough personal following get fellow party members put ministry \? likely wings flying rio basis explaining odd failure \? seem confident right , exactly know , sure \? nothing long voting , much voting pick list labor parties proposals mk prior election pay attention order correlate number arab party members eligible vote party elections correlate voting results arab areas lo behold , discover israeli arab labor party members band together unanimously en large select group arab candidates problem exacerbated israeli arabs claim membership right wing parties others vote parties pass minimum cutoff worked within labor party late 70 's elections \( last one \) volunteer voting results returned local delegates elected time , system structured differently cease amaze massive effort lobby arab reps delegates exactly basis saying labour party never put arab cabinet post insists coalition members \? basis reassuring face 50 years discriminatory practise \? quite simply , eligible arab voters became members labor party voted , would able command 15 delegates power base ignored ! especially ranked high party \( due lack political power \) seen labor party works inside experience , political situations , mks act self interest answer question , broke labor felt much right wing ultra orthodox coalition members front , july 29 , 1992 translation ha'aretz article racism knesset attitude recently even criticism , natural deeply upon people 's hearts holds knesset members , despite elected tens thousands votes , entitled full partners body represents people israel speaking political discrimination would bad enough racial discrimination proof one compromises proposed mk mahamid arab yigal replaced jew yigal party member 's party considered unfit , race fair enough take matter , admit possibility might seen differently dummy argument sitting committee , someone else obviously would support seat , mk \? would using argument , could used behalf proof presented article , would find interesting know proposed compromise along followup describing matter stands resolved let take opportunity say deplore actions groundless justifications test self confidence levi , ha'aretz , july 26 , 1992 worry even jewish mind devices new committee chair , milo , already announced set aplenty committee thus decide permissible mahamid participate solution could , way , also adopted rest committees , thereby completely eliminating fear state secrets leaked enemy removing stain discrimination knesset record , milo , mk \( self described \) likud \( note labor \) quite frankly , n't think anything would say could surprise annoy aggravate , yes , surprise accept documentation \? yes thank providing would interested knowing things turned anyone \? shai guday stealth bombers , os software engineer thinking machines corp winged ninja skies cambridge ,
narain ih nxt09 cso uiuc edu \( nizam arain \) subject synagogues , mosques , double standards reply narain uiuc edu organization university illinois urbana lines 27 mark ira kaufman writes perfect example outcry temporary removal 400 men advocated murdering jews destroying state israel , compared deafening silence abusive treatment jews arab countries past 50 years never mind fact people denied right fair trial israel supposed uphold western values , eh \? doubt non jewish world even capable compassion towards jews anti semitism ancient basic christianity islam check facts bashing islam may muslim anti semites , way tenet religion saying anti semitism basic islam entire muslim world , based selective sampling people , flies face islam teaches peace nizam arain makes universe \( 217 \) 384 4671 hard comprehend internet narain uiuc edu nothing nextmail narain sumter cso uiuc edu compare
narain ih nxt09 cso uiuc edu \( nizam arain \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians reply narain uiuc edu organization university illinois urbana lines 44 joachim martillo writes dope ! value mohammed elabdellaoui western university third worldist islamic brain rot made impossible acquire analyze facts appropriately yes , typical primitive muslim psychotic behavior upon hearing reading fact start whining jews jerk go back mindlessly stupid 3rd world country brain business civilized first world country joachim carlo santos martillo ajami substitute word jew jewish posting see word muslim islamic , switch joachim mohammed 's names around , repost , would get flood messages attacking author anti semite rightly author crap racist , pure simple obviously qualms open , either , unlike arab bashers net , one , going look joachim 's posting infer jews think way sure , might , view part judaism , stupid believe minds twisted however , muslims might look joachim 's flame reaffirmation worst fears jews hate arabs racists reason , alarmed jews net spoken joachim said chance possibly change anti semitic views people net , show jews hate arabs muslims , like muslims hate jews yet missing chance remember , many people , silence implies consent peace nizam arain makes universe \( 217 \) 384 4671 hard comprehend internet narain uiuc edu nothing nextmail narain sumter cso uiuc edu compare
khan0095 nova gmi edu \( mohammad razi khan \) subject synagogues , mosques , double standards organization gmi engineering management institute , flint , mi lines 44 nntp posting host nova gmi edu narain ih nxt09 cso uiuc edu \( nizam arain \) writes mark ira kaufman writes perfect example outcry temporary removal 400 men advocated murdering jews destroying state israel , compared deafening silence abusive treatment jews arab countries past 50 years never mind fact people denied right fair trial israel supposed uphold western values , eh \? doubt non jewish world even capable compassion towards jews anti semitism ancient basic christianity islam doubts unsubstantiated , faith us check facts bashing islam may muslim anti semites , way tenet religion saying anti semitism yes agree lets say call self xxx go shoot family cold blood mean xxx responsible \? people tend associate others color creed etc form racism basic islam entire muslim world , based selective sampling people , flies face islam teaches peace nizam arain makes universe \( 217 \) 384 4671 hard comprehend internet narain uiuc edu nothing nextmail narain sumter cso uiuc edu compare mohammad r khan khan0095 nova gmi edu july '93 , please send mail mkhan nyx cs du edu responses letter post bounce , e mail nyx account
khan0095 nova gmi edu \( mohammad razi khan \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians organization gmi engineering management institute , flint , mi lines 82 nntp posting host nova gmi edu jovanovic nick yale edu \( nick jovanovic \) writes article curie cs yale edu ahmed shakil cs yale edu \( shakil waiz ahmed \) writes article 1sueslinna6g minerva cis yale edu , jovanovic nick yale edu \( nick jovanovic \) writes muslim ex yugoslavia nation religion fact , muslims b h followers islam therefore , \( \? \) exist ex yugoslavia christian muslims yeah ! 's ! \) 've really outdone time nick n't forget davidian muslims \) islam race 's religion white , black , fijian alaskan change fact muslim legal political term defined constitutionally former yugoslavia , therefore meaning consequences entirely independent immaterial religious considerations muslims \) civil war terms secession negotiated guns instead pens croat , muslim , serb political leaders chose fight terms secession instead compromising peacefully negotiating multilateral secession agreements could arguable \( bandwith flames sake , wont say \) terms secession \? , course , joking , right nick \? nobody chose fight bosnia croatia internationally recognized nations serbs attacked started well documented genocide makes outside aggressor 's simple genocide , classical example ethnic cleansing question civil war wish civil war , serbian generals allow rape fighting fair yah know war hell serbian generals 2 , 000 , 000 residents croatia b h accepted terms secession tudjman unilaterally forced upon croats muslims may right negotiated secession right grab entire territories former yugoslav republics croatia b h lines money power fear oh , btw , yugoslavia internationally recognized destroyed tudjman , , milosevic , international community led germany yugoslavia 's borders could changed , certainly croatia 's borders b h 's borders changed well let 's change canadian \) see war \( sp borders \) stated many times civil war ex yugoslavia end terms secession \( borders , etc \) croatia b h finally agreed upon serbs , croats , muslims make territorial concessions reach agreement possibly agree civil war , makes donation humanitarian aid even complex mean serbs bleeding croats raped serbian women \( point \) nick mohammad r khan khan0095 nova gmi edu july '93 , please send mail mkhan nyx cs du edu responses letter post bounce , e mail nyx account
eggertj moses mit edu \( jim eggert x6127 g41 \) subject news missed reply gfeygin unicorn eecg toronto edu 's message 14 may 93 17 16 57 gmt lines 7 reply eggertj mit edu organization mit lincoln lab group 41 1993may7 175730 12246 ncsu edu bony1 bony com genesis mcs com 1993may14 jarvis csri toronto edu article 1993may14 jarvis csri toronto edu gfeygin unicorn eecg toronto edu \( feygin \) writes actually judea samaria proper geographical names , like asia minor lake michigan another name region cis jordan jim eggertj mit edu \( jim eggert \)
benali alcor concordia ca \( ilyess b bdira \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians nntp posting host alcor concordia ca organization concordia university , montreal , canada lines 25 jovanovic nick yale edu \( nick jovanovic \) writes stated many times civil war ex yugoslavia end terms secession \( borders , etc \) croatia b h finally agreed upon serbs , croats , muslims make territorial concessions reach agreement muslims already , accepted vance owen plan gives 50 population \( serbian statistics put 44 \) 25 territory gave totally muslim villages areas croatia serbia , effect gave serbs land grabbed slaughtering muslims raping women expelling survivors still serbs \( bosnian serbs real bosnian serbs fighting muslims defend bosnia serbs , called bosnian serbs refused part bosnia wanted greater serbia \) , still serbs refused , necessary weapons kill muslims grab territory nick
benali alcor concordia ca \( ilyess b bdira \) subject update saudi crackdown human rights league keywords international , non usa government , government , civil rights , social issues nntp posting host alcor concordia ca organization concordia university , montreal , canada lines 61 clarinews clarinet com \( \) writes upi , newspapers reporting owned wonder secure feeling reporting things , maybe saudi arabia allowed human rights violations , nobody including list , designed independent states cairo , egypt \( upi \) saudi government ordered firing reported cairo \? six saudi human rights activists one week formed country 's first human rights group , condemned kingdom 's highest religious authorities , saudi media reported friday two saudi owned , london based daily newspapers reported dismissal five activists , last week formed committee protection legal rights kingdom hear allegations human rights abuses newspapers said orders issued dismiss al job department , saudi arabia 's highest religious advisory body al ministry , mohamed al , al al two universities riyadh , saudi capital licenses practice law attorneys also ordered revoked al al law offices national branches ordered closed reason saudi interior minister prince ben abdel aziz , member royal family , rejected criticism human rights violations kingdom interview broadcast friday , said organizations say protect human rights demand respect human time refuse intervene bosnia herzegovina , people killed , raped destroyed even barred carrying arms '' humanity human rights talking \? '' prince said interview broadcast saudi owned , london based middle east broadcasting center somebody teach man logic \? relationship human rights league saudia human rights bosnia , guess wanted know italy , know brasil \( syrian joke \) prince , controls saudi police prisons , said kingdom 's enforcement islamic laws gives country one claim following islamic law biggest disservice ever islam amin , executive director cairo based arab organization human rights , said group documented evidence human rights abuses saudi arabia said aohr supported human rights egypt mr amin \? guess fighting many fronts , might retire soon \) \)
pgf5 cunixb cc columbia edu \( peter garfiel freeman \) subject peace talks nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply pgf5 cunixb cc columbia edu \( peter garfiel freeman \) organization columbia university lines 26 article news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) writes article 1993may13 nysernet org astein nysernet org \( alan stein \) writes seems , keep peace talks going , israel keep making goodwill gesture goodwill gesture , palestinian arabs continue go around hunting jews know putting something like newsgroup going generate flames , discussion try adding substance issue gestures mentioned feel israel offered gesture \? would \( realistically \) expect see presented arabs palestinians way gesture \? , israel recognized state arabs , except egypt , course n't gesture \? israel offered \? well , calling peace talks 45 years , asked economic relations , asked diplomatic ties else \? would israel sacrifice security \? nay , think peace , pete
steel hal gnu ai mit edu \( nick steel \) subject mufti \? meanwhile support genocide bosnians organization etc organization lines 20 nntp posting host hal ai mit edu article cunyvm bitnet yaakov kayman yzkcu cunyvm bitnet writes condemn mufti nazi leanings , condemn supporters , also condemning similarly genocidal killing innocents , muslim , herzegovina \? hatred bigotry remain , matter practices indeed , like ugly hatred spread kahane , right \? exempt condemnation , allowed hate \? know 'll answer indirectly , n't bother bit keep steel \( 's never pissed \)
steel hal gnu ai mit edu \( nick steel \) subject west bank baseball organization etc organization lines 8 nntp posting host hal ai mit edu reported national baseball league spotted west bank recruiting pitchers
tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) subject peace talks nntp posting host orion oac uci edu organization university california , irvine lines 47 article 1993may15 news columbia edu pgf5 cunixb cc columbia edu \( peter garfiel freeman \) writes article news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) writes article 1993may13 nysernet org astein nysernet org \( alan stein \) writes seems , keep peace talks going , israel keep making goodwill gesture goodwill gesture , palestinian arabs continue go around hunting jews know putting something like newsgroup going generate flames , discussion try adding substance issue gestures mentioned feel israel offered gesture \? would \( realistically \) expect see presented arabs palestinians way gesture \? , israel recognized state arabs , except egypt , course n't gesture \? israel offered \? well , calling peace talks 45 years , asked economic relations , asked diplomatic ties else \? would israel sacrifice security \? nay , think peace , pete yea , think also israel 's 1 issue security outcomes negotiation certainly need address perception issue problem defining \( outsiders , israel , arabs \) 1 issue arab side palestinian statehood , israel state must allowed exist , existence self governing non muslim state islamic world intolerable \? dividing line israel fighting security israel fighting expand often hard discern outsiders \( especially arab world \) , rationale behind arab struggle undermine israel way could either based sense still values peace , knows anyway , talks , gestures would think would seen israel substantial \? tim clock ph graduate student uci tel 714 , 8565361 department politics society fax 714 , 8568441 university california irvine home tel 714 , 8563446 irvine , ca 92717
dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) subject question armenians organization p center regional studies lines 55 article unix amherst edu unix amherst edu \( \) asked ee , flaming simple question simple answer ! ee far know armenians belong gregorian orthodox ee faith case nineteenth century ottoman empire ee also known armenian communities converted catholicism ee protestantism western european missionaries period vast majority armenians eastern anatolia gregorian armenian apostolic , however , higher percentage non gregorian armenians , closer mediterranean , adana , , , etc ee another known fact almost half armenians living anatolia ee speak armenian , used turkish everyday lives true forbidden armenians speak armenian certain areas armenia , armenians spoke armenian fact , turks armenians also spoke armenian ! sure , armenians , especially men , also knew turkish order function larger society ee question , given many armenian community , ee common denominator armenian people allowed armenian ee nationalism emerge nineteenth century \? stated , religion ee uniform \( unlike greeks \) many armenians could n't even speak ee armenian would like know factors brought armenians ee ottoman empire together led formation armenian ee consciousness armenians turkey persecuted armenian , regardless specific branch christianity professed resultant armenian nationalism direct reaction persecution even later stages wwi , genocide , many armenians converted islam also exterminated continued armenian moslems practice continued well 1920s ataturk parallel policy clearing pockets steadfast islamic fundamentalism many converted armenians , ironically , order stay alive , staunch moslems ee information appreciated answered question ! common thread throughout inquiry word armenian ! ee regards , david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org armenia learned lesson p center regional studies anatolia forgotten p box 382761 punishment inflicted 4 14 93 cambridge , 02238 late turkish president turgut ozal
sadek cbnewsg cb att com \( mohamed sadek \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians organization lines 45 article c6x81m ejf news cis umn edu prabhak giga cs umn edu \( satya prabhakar \) writes \( mohamed sadek \) writes like mr joseph biden say yesterday 5 11 93 senate condemening european lack action lack support us plans calling moral rape went say reason right religious bigotry actually , strife yugoslavia goes back long way bosinan muslims , collaboration nazis , serbians first world war serbs muslims fresh case ethnic cleansing another chapter continuing saga intense mutual hatred , destruction , taking sides perpetual war amount religious bigotry could helplessness regards bringing peace region even know meaning word lie ! ! \? \? ask victims nazis n't take bosnian word ask survivors helped , hear bosnian muslims \( among others \) helped also object term ethnic cleansing , since happening bosnia ethnic cleansing , ethnicity , different religion orthodox christians , catholic christians , muslims 's religious cleansing also watching people rounded slaughtered throat , raped collectively systematically , driven homes millions \( ! ! ! ! \) , tortured concentration camps , maimed indeed amount moral rape nothing history justifies 's happening satya prabhakar mohamed
trentu ca subject organization islamic conference reply trentu ca organization trent university , peterborough lines 9 dear friends , hi ! need information organization conference \( \) anyone know books , articles , journals contains information regarding organization \? know would please send e mail address ! thank advance hope hear soon since need present regards ! ! aziz
jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) subject labour 's enclaves policy important organization department redundancy department lines 13 article igc apc org center policy research cpr igc apc org \( real life , elias davidson \) quotes israel shahak nutcase quoting crackpot next time , post rec humor , perhaps alt conspiracy jake livni jake bony1 bony com ten years , george bush american occupied new york replaced jimmy carter opinions employer opinions standard failed president
enis cbnewsg cb att com \( enis \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians organization lines 39 article 1993may12 iastate edu , jakhan iastate edu \( javed ahmed khan \) actually , strife yugoslavia goes back long way bosinan muslims , collaboration nazis , serbians first world war serbs muslims fresh case dont think 're correct reports bosnians muslims supporting nazis genocide serbians fact croat govt using secret police \( called ustache , think \) prime agents nazis yugoslavia serbs javed first , strife massacre innocent moslem christian west since ottoman lost control balkans , many tens millions muslem peoples \( turks , , bosnians , others \) tortured , raped , massacred , driven homes region europe lucky ones escaped relative safety turkiye remaining others finished local christians , usa , rest europe christian west maintaining tight arms muslem peoples bosnia cannot letting christian serbs croats torture , rape , massacre innocent moslem peoples bosnia took christian europe almost six centuries achieve objective think let go untill every single moslem person \( bosnian , turk , , etc \) tortured , raped , massacred , driven homes
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject according government' , turks western thrace reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 207 article 1993may14 news uiowa edu mau herky cs uiowa edu \( mau napoleon \) writes treaties signed greece turkey speak moslem minority turkish minority reason talk moslems turks majority people turks gypsies , exciting first discuss non existent literature tastes , fantasies , choices historical revisionism related 'arromdians' asala sdpa arf terrorism revisionism triangle \? agreement exchange minorities uses term , ' demonstrates actually meant previous reference ' fact greek governments also mention existence thousand non turkish muslims change essential reality lives western thrace much bigger turkish minority also muslim people , three nations \( , turks , greeks \) consider part know muslim turkish minority organized according agreements \? also proves turkish people trapped greece greek people free settle anywhere world greek authorities deny even existence turkish minority pursue denial connection macedonians greece talk oppression addition , 1980 greek parliament passed law 1091 , virtually taking administration charitable trusts ceased self supporting religious cultural entities talk fascism greek governments attempting appoint , irrespective turkish minority , state official although orthodox church full authority similar matters greece , muslim turkish minority say electing religious leaders talk democracy government greece recently destroyed islamic convention komotini destruction , reflects attitude muslim turkish cultural heritage , violation lausanne convention well 'so greek constitution , supposed guarantee protection historical monuments government greece , hand , building new churches remote villages step toward hellenizing region longstanding use adjective 'turkish' titles prohibited greek courts ordered closure turkish teachers' association , komotini turkish youth association turkish association grounds turks western thrace community associations active 1984 first told remove word 'turkish' buildings official papers eventually close also final verdict \( november 4 , 1987 \) greek high court helsinki watch , well known human rights group , investigating plight turkish minority greece august 1990 , findings published report titled ethnic identity turks greece ' report confirmed gross violations human rights turkish minority greek authorities says instance , greek government recently destroyed islamic komotini destruction , reflects attitude muslim turkish cultural heritage , violation lausanne convention 1 helsinki watch problems turks western thrace continue ankara \( \) 15 page report helsinki watch stated turkish minority western thrace still faced problems stipulated discriminatory policy implemented greek government brought end report western thrace emphasized greek government grant social political rights members minorities equal enjoyed greek citizens addition must recognize existence turkish minority western thrace grant right identify , may 1992 2 greece west thrace turks independent mp ahmet faikoglu said greek state trying cut contacts relations turkish minority turkey pointing greek minority living istanbul called greek ethnic definition , religion minority western thrace considered interview greek newspaper said greek citizen turkish origin individuals minority living western trace also turkish emphasizing education problem turkish minority western thrace faikoglu said according agreement signed 1951 greece must distribute textbooks printed turkey turkish minority schools western thrace activities komotini independent mp dr sadik ahmet defend rights turkish minority , faikoglu said fact helped greece prevented greece , cradle democracy , losing face european countries forcing greek government recognize legal rights greek relations , pointed countries predestined live peace geographical historical reasons said turkey greece must resist foreign powers trying create cooperating , adding turkey observed improve relations greece , january 1993 3 macedonian human rights activists face trial greece two ethnic macedonian human rights activists face trial athens alleged crimes greek state , according court summons \( \) obtained sideropoulos bulev \( \) charged greek criminal law making comments athenian magazine sideropoulos bulev gave interview greek weekly magazine march 11 , 1992 , said macedonians denied basic human rights greece would field ethnic macedonian candidate coming greek general election bulev said interview greek , macedonian sideropoulos said article greece recognise macedonia allegations regarding territorial aspirations greece tales panic secure border , time borders barriers within eec falling main charge two , according court summons , spread intentionally false information might create unrest fear among citizens , might affect public security harm international interests country \( greece \) greek state recognise existence macedonian ethnicity believed 350 , 000 1 , 000 , 000 ethnic macedonians living within greece , largely concentrated north crime greek state anyone declares macedonian 1913 greece , serbia yugoslavia bulgaria macedonia three pieces 1919 albania took 50 macedonian villages part serbo yugoslav occupation broke away 1991 independent republic macedonia 1 5 million macedonians republic 500 , 000 bulgaria 150 , 000 albania 300 , 000 serbia proper sideropoulos long time macedonian human rights greece , lost job forestry worker years ago even exiled obscure greek island pressure amnesty international forced greek government allow return home town florina \( \) northern greece \( aegean macedonia \) , majority ethnic macedonians live balkan watchers see sideropoulos affair show trial greece desperate clamp internal dissent , especially comes issue recognition northern neighbour , republic macedonia last year state department united states condemned greece bad treatment ethnic macedonians turks \( largely live western thrace \) remains seen us government anything presidential elections l 91 , rue du 91 28 1120 brussels , belgium , macedonia tel fax 32 2 268 18 48 tel fax 38 91 201 566 modem 32 2 262 28 97 n acc citibank belgium 954 92 serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject baltic states realism 'virvir' drivel reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 127 article zip eecs umich edu dip eecs umich edu \( stuart \) writes memoirs armenian army officer translated english published member american near east relief organization gives whole account genocide turkish moslem people armenia organized executed armenian government army also gives account countless massacres atrocities turkish people armenia actually , leonard r ramsden hartill ditto source men like leonard ramsden hartill bobbs merrill company , indianapolis \( 1926 \) \( 305 pages \) \( memoirs armenian officer participated genocide 2 5 million muslim people \) , point often , use arguing easily verified facts ``as turks solved armenian problem turkey slaying driving armenians country , proceeded solve tartar problem armenia closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape tartars , proceeded work extermination '' ohanus appressian , l r hartill , like , '' bobbs merrill company , london , 1928 p 202 set straw horses knocked i'm impressed let us ask armenian scholars shall \? source k papazian , patriotism perverted , baikar press , boston , 1934 pp 17 18 seems terrorism co nationals prominent part revolutionary activities dashnag leaders caucasus organized fight turks , successful fight armenian opponents turkey , caucasus , often defenseless innocent p 25 defeated p 38 fact remains , however , leaders turkish armenian section dashnagtzoutune carry promise loyalty turkish cause turks entered war call sent armenian volunteers fight turks caucasian front p 38 thousands armenians world , standards famous fighters antranik , , dro , etc armenian volunteer rendered valuable service russian army years 1914 15 16 way , entire paragraph closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape tartars proceeded work extermination troops surrounded village village little resistance offered artillery knocked huts heaps stone dust villages became untenable inhabitants fled fields , bullets bayonets completed work tartars escaped course found refuge mountains succeeded crossing border turkey rest killed whole length borderland russian armenia nakhitchevan akhalkalaki hot plains ararat cold mountain plateau north dotted mute mournful ruins tartar villages quiet , villages , except howling wolves jackals visit paw scattered bones dead ohanus appressian men like p 202 wait , 1 \) armenians slaughter entire muslim population van 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 2 \) armenians slaughter 42 muslim population bitlis 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 3 \) armenians slaughter 31 muslim population erzurum 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 4 \) armenians slaughter 26 muslim population diyarbakir 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 5 \) armenians slaughter 16 muslim population 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 6 \) armenians slaughter 15 muslim population sivas 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 7 \) armenians slaughter entire muslim population x soviet armenia 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 8 \) 1 mccarthy , j , muslims minorities , population ottoman anatolia end empire , new york university press , new york , 1983 , pp 133 144 2 karpat , k , ottoman population , university wisconsin press , 1985 3 hovannisian , r g , armenia road independence , 1918 university california press \( berkeley los angeles \) , 1967 , pp 13 , 37 4 shaw , j , 'on armenian collaboration invading russian armies 1914 , history ottoman empire modern turkey \( volume ii reform , revolution republic rise modern turkey , 1808 1975 \) \( london , cambridge university press 1977 \) pp 315 316 5 gochnak \( armenian newspaper published united states \) , may 24 , 1915 serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 53 article ecf toronto edu srini ecf toronto edu \( srinivas \) writes reference 4 page essay local star tribute newspaper putting whole conflict perspective readily admit authority area however , asserted muslims join hands croats nazis persecuting serbs case , past actions best evidence find second hand hearsay unnamed source \? may indeed confusing muslims nazi armenians altogether 30 , 000 nazi armenians served various units german wehrmacht , according ara j berkian 14 , 000 predominantly armenian army units , 6 , 000 german army units , 8 , 000 various working units 2 , 000 waffen ss 1 amazing ! discussions change one topic another \) really disagree maybe know better issue hand , remembers today extermination tartars \? ' \( adolf hitler , august 22 , 1939 ruth w \( \) , turkish holocaust turk , p 213 \) crime systematic cleansing mass killing extermination muslim population soviet republic armenia , karabag , bosnia herzegovina comparable extermination 2 5 million muslims armenian government wwi 6 million european jews wwii \( azeri leader september 25 , 1992 \) today 's ethnic cleansing policies serbian dictatorship muslims yugoslavia , well soviet republic armenia 's muslim population neighboring azerbaijan , really different aspirations genocide perpetrated armenian government 78 years ago turkish kurdish muslims sephardic jews living lands \( kurdish leader october 13 , 1992 \) serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject armenians form distinct race reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 147 article unix amherst edu unix amherst edu \( \) writes question , given many armenian community , common denominator armenian people allowed armenian nationalism emerge nineteenth century \? stated , religion various contradictory views origin armenians name found inscriptions form found inscription monument following references armenians found inscription \( 510 b c \) 1 monarch said sent servant 6 reaching 7 country town , according , equivalent persians , recent word , found used inscriptions 'haiastan' saint martin name given since early times almost various eastern peoples territory referred armenians 'haiastan' known syrians armenia arabs others believe urartu known time medes later modified persians refers place , ararat , , , , , , used refer spirit , thought human , therefore would appear signify 'the people g believes national vocabulary haik form , name nation nation way connected word armen foreigners apply people ' would thus appear place name , name people lived , way connected word 'hai' haik armenian historians believe haik great hero armenian people took name 'hai' mere resemblance words 'hai' constitutes real proof , , case , theory appears time moses following studies show quite clearly 'hai' 'haiasa' general names used hittites refer region known armenia professor general name used hittite inscriptions upper armenia ' , tries prove 'hai' identical hittite , words 'hai' hittite word research , however , proved erroneous , shown 'hai' derived 's attempt read urartu inscriptions armenian met success greek , point even mentioning resemblance words 'haiasa' 'haiastan' obvious may well accept 'haiasa' oldest form 'haiastan' let us cast brief glance words 'hai' , 'haiastan' entered older works according 'the word haik never found employed reference leader armenian people prior moses , ever found employed forms use word title place name \( improved developed , etc \) word referred nation derived haik could also used words number places ' according professor , deciphered number hittite inscriptions 'in hittite language suffix ha used specify quality species words , used refer hittites transformation two letters way transformed ' professor fully agrees point view , regards significance explanation far accorded terms 'hai' quite finds , however , solution problem brought nearer name 'haiasa' frequently found 1400 b c onwards takes 'haiasa' referring upper armenia case seems likely 'haiasa' actually part armenia suffix dan anatolian origin real root , refers country e writes follows subject anthropological characteristics armenian people armenians russia may characterized follows almost , dark , average height , asian group close ties certain kurdish tribes azerbaijan peoples according j point view , armenian kurds may regarded belonging iranian group armenians descended various elements mixed race average height varies 1 63 1 69 according region almost always short headed , skull measurements 85 87 race belong indo turkic family professor rene writes follows armenians mixture semites , turk , kurds mongols , display armenian features , e g , height little average , fair , dark hair , dark eyes , often hooked nose rather wide mouth investigations carried n links armenian blood groups anthropological characteristics led conclusion armenians form distinct race serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject 10 azeri soil occupied x soviet armenia talk \? reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 305 article 1993may15 seas smu edu pts seas smu edu \( paul thompson schreiber \) writes nancy huddled around one candle kerosene lamp cold \? make others feel isolation living country 3 5 million people completely blockaded hostile neighbors , prevented receiving adequate supplies fuel keep electric plants running , hospitals open , schools operation \? anybody typical armenian revisionist past x soviet armenia , today azerbaijan , idiotic causes armenians brought havoc neighbors short sighted misplaced nationalistic fervor wrong agenda anachronistic methods armenians continue become pernicious region usual , treated accordingly neighbors nagorno karabag mountainous enclave lies completely within azerbaijan border history whatsoever connected x soviet armenia besides geographical aspect , nagorno karabag historic homeland artistic literary heritage azerbaijan , renders armenian claims , even lunatic one mind could imagined one day devious turn event could plagued azeris one cannot even imagine reverse case occur , armenians either would slaughtered azerbaijanis , put forced exile maintain majority \? appeal mankind last three years azerbaijan population vainly fighting justice within limits soviet union humanitarian , constitutional human rights guaranteed un charter , universal declaration human rights , helsinki agreements , human problems international forums , documents signed soviet union violated ussr 's president , government bodies defend azerbaijan though empowered take necessary measures guarantee life peace 140 , 000 strong army armenian terrorists moscow 's tacit consent wages undeclared war annihilation azerbaijan result , part azerbaijan occupied annexed , hundreds people killed , thousands wounded 200 , 000 azerbaijanis brutally deported armenian ssr , historical homeland together 64 , 000 russians 22 , 000 kurds also driven , part settled azerbaijan 40 , 000 turkish , lezghins representatives caucasian nationalities escaped central asia president government bodies guarantee life peace also suffered deportations one scandalous directed azerbaijan science world civilization well armenian destruction karabakh scientific experimental base institute genetics selection academy sciences azerbaijan ssr beg humanitarian help political assistance , honour dignity 7 million azerbaijanis violated , territory , culture history trampled , people shot persistent negative image abroad , defamation spread whole world soviet mass media , armenian lobby ussr united states one myths events allegedly involves generated collisions religious intolerance truth shootings recent events stem territorial claims armenia azerbaijan well documented fact conflict armenians azerbaijanis issue karabakh hundreds thousands armenians calmly lived worked azerbaijan land , representatives government bodies azerbaijan ssr united , indivisible , sovereign azerbaijan , common caucasian home proclaimed 1918 one founding fathers azerbaijan democratic republic muhammed goals expectations trampled upon soviet leadership favour armenian encouraged moscow intended create new '1 , 000 year annexing neighboring lands world public opinion shed tears save whales , suffers penguins dying antarctic continent lives seven million human beings \? people muslims , mean less valuable \? people discriminated colour skin religion , residence attributes \? people brothers , appeal brothers help understanding first appeal azerbaijan world public opinion previous appeals unheard however , still carry hope truth beyond russian armenian propaganda one day reveal extent suffering stimulate least much help compassion azerbaijan whales penguins committee help karabakh \( \) academy sciences azerbaijan ssr painful search gruesome extent february 's killings azeris armenians town hojali last emerging azerbaijan 600 men , women children dead worst outrage four year war nagorny karabakh figure drawn azeri investigators , hojali officials casualty lists published baku press diplomats aid workers say death toll line estimates 25 february attack hojali armenian forces one last moves four year campaign take full control nagorny karabakh , subject new round negotiations rome monday bloodshed something fighting retreat massacre , investigators say dead civilians awful number people killed first suppressed fearful former communist government baku later blurred armenian denials grief stricken azerbaijan 's wild contradictory allegations 2 , 000 dead state , rasulov , cheif investigator 15 man team looking azerbaijan calls hojali disaster , said figure 600 people dead minimum preliminary findings similar estimate given elman memmedov , mayor hojali even higher one printed baku newspaper ordu may 479 dead people named 200 bodies reported unidentified figure nearly 700 dead quoted official leila , new spokeswoman azeri ministry defence francois zen ruffinen , head delegation international red cross baku , said muslim imam nearby city agdam reported figure 580 bodies received mosque hojali , civilians count bodies figure seems reasonable fantasy , mr zen ruffinen said idea since gave body bags products wash dead mr rasulov give estimate number dead massacre n't get worked take several months get final figure , 43 year old lawyer said small office mr rasulov knows things took two years reach firm conclusion 131 people killed 714 wounded soviet troops tanks crushed nationalist uprising baku january 1990 nationalists , popular front , finally came power three weeks ago applying pressure find exactly happened hojali , azeri town lies 70 miles border armenia , fell armenians officially , 184 people far certified dead , number people could medically examined republic 's forensic department small percentage dead , said rafiq youssifov , republic 's chief forensic scientist bodies brought us remember chaos fact muslims wash bury dead within 24 hours 184 people , 51 women , 13 children 14 years old gunshots killed 151 people , shrapnel killed 20 axes blunt instruments killed 10 exposure highland snows killed last three thirty three people showed signs deliberate mutilation , including ears , noses , breasts cut eyes gouged , according professor youssifov 's report 184 bodies examined less third believed killed , mr rasulov said files mr rasulov 's investigative commission still lists 44 azeri militiamen dead , six policemen , handwriting mosque attendant , names 111 corpses brought washed one day account 850 witnesses interviewed far comes towfiq manafov , azeri investigator took helicopter flight escape route hojali 27 february many bodies dead wounded ground count properly 470 500 hojali , 650 700 people stream road 85 100 visible around nakhchivanik village , mr manafov wrote statement helicopter pilot people waved us help saw three dead children one two year old alive one dead woman live one pulling arm mother get tried land armenians started helicopter return lists figures circulation political last months fact nobody knows exactly hojali time many inhabitants displaced villages taken armenian forces independent , london , 12 6 '92 heroes fought amid bodies sadikov sat quietly shade cafe bar caspian sea baku showed line stitches trousers , torn armenian bullet fled town hojali three months ago , writes hugh pope i'm still wearing clothes , n't others , 51 year old carpenter said , beginning account hojali disaster wounded five places , lucky alive mr sadikov wife short food , without electricity month , cut helicopter flights 12 days sensed armenian noose tightening around 2 , 000 3 , 000 people left azeri town edge karabakh bombardment started never heard , eight nine kinds weapons , artillery , heavy machine guns , lot , mr sadikov said soon neighbours pouring street direction attack huddled shelters others started fleeing town , hill , stream snow forest side escape , reach azeri town agdam 15 miles away thought going make , dawn reached bottleneck two armenian villages nakhchivanik none group hurt spotted car road , armenian outposts started opening fire , mr sadikov said azeri militiamen fighting way hojali rushed forward force open corridor civilians , efforts mostly vain mr sadikov said 10 people group 80 made , including wife son seven immediate relations died , including 67 year old elder brother time reach cover face hat , said , pulling big flat turkish cap eyes never got bodies back first groups lucky benefit covering fire one hero evacuation , , shot dead struggled change magazine covering third group 's crossing , mr sadikov said another hero , elman memmedov , mayor hojali , said several others spent whole day 26 february hillside , surrounded dead bodies tried keep three armenian armoured personnel carriers bay survivors staggered last mile agdam , little comfort town population soon flee night reached town big armenian rocket attack people kept going , mr sadikov said get hospital treatment bad way even found bullet sock victims war azeri woman son , killed hojali massacre february \( left \) nurses struggle primitive conditions \( centre \) save wounded man makeshift operating theatre set train carriage grief stricken relatives town agdam \( right \) weep coffin another massacre victims calculating final death toll complicated muslims bury dead within 24 hours photographs liu ap reuter independent , london , 12 6 '92 serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
astein nysernet org \( alan stein \) subject synagogues , mosques , double standards organization nysernet , inc lines 22 narain ih nxt09 cso uiuc edu \( nizam arain \) writes mark ira kaufman writes perfect example outcry temporary removal 400 men advocated murdering jews destroying state israel , compared deafening silence abusive treatment jews arab countries past 50 years never mind fact people denied right fair trial repeat lie often enough people start believe , eh \? hamas terrorists given opportunity appeal 've chosen , obviously get better propaganda mileage refusing israel also agreed could return immediately , provided agreed stop killing jews refusal speaks alan h stein astein israel nysernet org
cleveland freenet edu \( dr joshua backon \) subject west bank baseball organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 13 nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu september 1990 , medical reserve unit sent prison camp take care arab prisoner housed 5 sections 1500 prisoners , section 5 units housing 300 prisoners prisoners would communicate distant sections \( sometimes 50 100 yards away \) taking stones , tying written notes stones , throwing incredible precision sections red sox \) least three prisoners could outstanding pitchers josh backon vms huji ac il
bakken cs arizona edu \( dave bakken \) subject saudi clergy condemns debut human rights group ! keywords international , non usa government , government , civil rights , social issues , politics organization u arizona cs dept , tucson lines 101 article benali alcor benali alcor concordia ca \( ilyess b bdira \) writes looks like ben baz 's mind heart also blind , eyes used respect , today lost minimal amount respect struggled keep muslim netters guy gave fatwah saudi arabia used united attack iraq attacking iraqis drive kuwait , country whose citizens close blood business ties saudi citizens thinks us helped iraqis would swallowed saudi arabia , \( least eastern \) muslim country much anything help liberate kuwait protect saudi arabia indeed , masses citizens demonstrating favor butcher saddam \( killed lotsa muslims \) , killing , raping , looting relatively rich muslims also thumbing nose west would defended saudi arabia rolled back iraqi invasion , charge saudi arabia \? \? \? fatwah legitimate one kind clergy , might islamic duty separate religion politics , religion means official clergy think good idea governments official religion \( de facto de \) , human nature like , ambitious always ones rise power many people world \( country \) citizens really know leader really devout slick operator cairo , egypt \( upi \) cairo based arab organization human rights \( aohr \) thursday welcomed last week committee defense legal rights saudi arabia said necessary groups operating arab countries make sound like guys angels , ilyess \( clarinet posting edited stuff following \? \? \? \) friday 's new york times reported group definitely conservative even sheikh baz followers \( think house saud rule country conservatively enough \) nyt reported , besides complaining government conservative enough , asserted \( approx 500 , 000 \) kingdom , charge saudi \( islamic \) law brings death penalty diplomatic guy \( sheikh bin \) , n't ilyess \? called severe punishment 40 women drove public back protest ban women driving guy group said , al , said women fired jobs , jailed , prostitutes want see happen , ilyess \? 've heard many muslims say ban women driving basis qur'an , , etc yet folks like ban , want women falsely called prostitutes \? , 'd choose heroes wisely , ilyess , rally behind anyone hates anyone hate say women allowed work say tv radio immoral kingdom , house saud neither least favorite government earth think restrict religious political lot , among things think likely replacements going lot worse citizens country think house saud feeling heat lately last six months 've read stepped \( religious police government \) western women fully veiled \( something stupid women , imo , sends wrong signals morality \) 've read 've cracked , home based religious , even posted rewards \( government owned \) newspapers offering money anyone turns group dare worship homes secret place government grown even intolerant try take wind sails conservative opposition things , 're small taste would happen guys overthrow house saud , like 're trying long run really \( others general west evil zionists rule hate west puppet crowd \) want , ilyess \? dave bakken president fine job , problem n't know husband james \( clinton campaign \) , 2 93 oh , please call daddy mom 's far busy chelsea nurse , , 2 93
murthy asl dl nec com \( vasudev murthy \) subject saudi clergy condemns debut human rights group ! keywords international , non usa government , government , civil rights , social issues , politics nntp posting host organization nec america , inc irving tx lines 21 article optima cs arizona edu bakken cs arizona edu \( dave bakken \) writes deleted really \( others general west evil zionists rule hate west puppet crowd \) want , ilyess \? 's noteworthy posts west evil etc made islamic west west bad , come \? notice comfortably exercise rights free expression , something completely absent countries vasudev vasudev murthy opinions expressed strictly murthy asl dl nec com nothing advanced switching lab , nec america , inc
bob1 cos com \( bob blackshaw \) subject mosque jewish quarter \( israeli destruction \) organization corporation open systems distribution world lines 33 always believed statement know history condemned repeat \( durant \? \) , beginning believe opposite true p newsgroups seems history mainly remembered hatred used club history people ample acts shame , done people done people since party acts , refuse accept blame evil acts ancestors committed , direct hatred toward descendants committed evil acts ancestors discussion rebuild single mosque \? rebuild temple \? somehow doubt post another group , bosnian war , asked us love , love would conquer hate sadly , remember tv interview young woman sarajevo \( sp \? \) remember , former olympic calibre rifle shoot trying pick serbian snipers communist years married serb , fighting people seems hate conquer love odd chance might forget past wrongs try see might live together \? 's damn small planet , come close turning radioactive ball , glowing softly space seem spared prospect , shall 's blood \? shalom , salam , peace reb
center policy research cpr igc apc org subject help palestinian education nf id n cdp 000 nf cdp uucp ! cpr may 15 04 57 00 1993 lines 104 center policy research cpr subject help palestinian education help palestinian education \( , 11 , april 1993 , publ ramallah friends schools , p box 66 , ramallah , west bank , via israel tel 972 2 , fax 972 2 \) many readers written us asking individuals organizations help palestinian education compiled list suggestions guide interested pursuing one suggested activities , educational network aid coordinating initial contacts , following , providing support may need 1 link teachers' union teachers' union linkage based shared enterprise 2 get union actively support right palestinian teachers occupied territories form unions international labor organization \( union member \) b contacting international unions supported right form union supply names addresses 3 establish scholarship fund one palestinian students study palestinian university school establish scholarship fund palestinian student teacher study university abroad 4 reproduce publish information palestinian education union membership b outside community educational network supply date information statistics 5 send teachers visit occupied territories periods schools session network arrange , make hotel local travel arrangements , provide guide visit 6 sponsor palestinian teachers visit city educational tour see schools speak educators order learn progressive ideas experiences b speak conditions palestinian education network coordinate palestine 7 establish teacher exchange programs one year palestinian teacher private school teaches public private school abroad teacher school spends year palestinian private school 8 send experienced educator occupied territories give workshops \( day workshops two day workshops \) innovative teaching techniques network pay person 's food , , travel palestine , serve guide 9 set pen pal program palestinian school either english french 10 set sister school program palestinian school would actively involve teachers well students schools great tool building international understanding mutual sensitivity 11 keep educational network informed important educational conferences send palestinian teacher attend 12 send educational network articles writings books dealing innovative approaches ideas field education information locally 13 support educational development project occupied territories
center policy research cpr igc apc org subject rabin palestinians nf id n cdp 000 nf cdp uucp ! cpr may 15 05 01 00 1993 lines 85 center policy research cpr subject rabin palestinians rabin 's plans palestinian police \( front , alternative information center , jerusalem , 5 may 1993 \) decision view setting local police force \( sic \) palestinians central issue peace talks resumed next week even subjects like elections territories areas framework autonomy sign israeli government 's serious attitude towards peace process setting police force part , deals heart substance palestinian struggle national identity turns , main objective guiding prime minister setting palestinian police force apparently also supported foreign minister peres ensure holding democratic elections territories thus writes editorial \( israeli daily hadashot , 23 april \) , position thinking commentators dealt issue past two weeks stand settlers parties , also interpret decision encourage establishment palestinian police force significant step towards real autonomy , something restrict done jewish settlers west bank gaza strip variety demonstrations , including street theater 'what happen palestinian police , elements attempting israeli public pressure rabin go back decision members movement even begun organize police occupied territories , counter balance future palestinian police force however , points , main function new police force far israeli government concerned nothing settlers , apparently authority , control political groups within palestinian population , government interested writes according ideas currently taking shape , setting local police force territories precede , stage , also final stages preparing interim autonomy agreement willingness israeli government set local palestinian police force evidence government serious arriving settlement palestinians 's wonder palestinian public also greatly worried new israeli initiative inevitable pressure brought bear faisal husseini rest delegation members , variety directions , refuse gift rabin would like give stage , looks like palestinians cooperating fulfillment plans comment e numerous palestinians fear israel might succeed co palestinian circles idea fear palestinian police force , controlled fact israel , might act even brutally idf idea using surrogate police force new used israel lebanon used nazis control jewish ghetto
ronald igc apc org subject reflections bosnia owen , neier , nf id n cdp 000 nf cdp uucp ! may 15 10 30 00 1993 lines 187 reflections bosnia lord owen serbs early february '93 , lord owen made appearances new york city donahue charlie rose shows couple occasions shows lord owen gave away pro serbian position made point much bosnian territory dispute already overrun serbian forces controlled occupied serbs wwii saying since serbs previously occupied territories lost hitler years , allowed today familiar view father , yugoslav jew escaped country war , aided found sympathy among serbs years recent months subject serbian aggression mentioned , father would make point 850 , 000 serbs killed nazi pro nazi croatian forces known father pro serbian dismissed reports serbian atrocities father also new york times columnist anthony lewis , , father said , anthony lewis always talking muslims update april 28 , 1993 uneasy truce around , shelling resumed nearby areas sides killing misery continues clinton administration response days leading collapse resistance , lord owen changed tune previously opposed military intervention grounds would endanger u n relief workers serbian forces began march , threat u n relief soldiers went lord owen called outside intervention stop serbian aggression , including use air strikes current disastrous situation seen failure west failure vance owen initiative nothing halt serbs 's late save muslim areas lord owen felt muslim state , lord owen calls strong action clinton bosnia summer 1992 , george kenney , senior state department official , charge yugoslav desk , made news resigned state department bush administration 's refusal take action halt serbian aggression kenney saw , bush 's inaction largely due president 's unwillingness risk political capital getting involved apparently true clinton administration clinton gives impression cares bush terrible ongoing tragedy , practical effect far according new york times , \( 4 16 93 \) clinton administration everything could suppress mid march report experts called military action necessary protect safe havens muslims one point , senate majority leader , george mitchell incensed report kept congress , called investigation instead helping desperate bosnians , clinton milosevic serbs free want bosnia indeed , clinton west signalling serbs get job finish bosnians quickly possible turn way key signal clinton made clear would send american military forces ground issue , clinton made bush bush baker could done worse , might pressured better well time lives bosnia might saved destruction might nation , left bosnian typical left 's inability come grips core issue involved bosnia , e , clear aggressor destroying hundreds thousands lives , editorial bosnian nation \( 4 26 93 \) end editorial votes nothing , even noticing ghastly atrocities bosnian serbs greater lesser powers dither fuss hang back \( anything else happens , clinton administration ought pay 530 million united states u n editorial concludes \) striking passage , editorial writer warns pushing president clinton intervene side bosnians better review u foreign policy since world war ii editorial argues inaction basis bosnian serbs worse number u clients including , south africans , greek fascists others \( subsequent column nation , christopher correctly called editorial , \) william , european based journalist writes new yorker los angeles times , among group liberal columnists like anthony lewis , leslie clearly consistently called strong western american intervention stop serbs 's recent column \( liberal opinion week 4 19 93 \) entitled international cowardice bosnian tragedy clarifies international failure led present situation one sentence refused intervene sanction threat minority rights newly independent croatia june 1991 , block military aggression serbia immediately followed , atrocious ethnic cleansing followed , united nations bosnia military force scale two years ago could deterred horrors yugoslavia since experienced goes explain u n plans call open ended military assignment direct military intervention halt aggression would year ago neier serbs watching rights column nation \( 5 3 93 \) neier gets heart motivation aggressors preferred term serbian forces shelling sarajevo year explains military purpose served destruction fabric people , aligned forces attacking sarajevo would want live even city could rebuilt city people , believe aside desire break morale bosnians make press government accept peace price explains conduct siege sarajevo loathing urban , made sarajevo object devastation historically , serbian population bosnia herzegovina rural , muslims , civil servants centuries ottoman rule , made disproportionate share urban population destruction sarajevo expression hostility city also attack urban idea whipped passions let loose war exploited ethnic religious bigotry also hatred light neier sheds issue helps clarify stake serbs represent know nothing , anti , fundamentalist , fascist forces attacking urban , , secular , multi cultural idea attacking rest us , hitler one irony beginning crisis bosnia , awhile maintained serbs supporters responding threat bosnian muslims create fundamentalist state neier shown serbs great threat , multi , diversity democracy 's serbs attacking democratic notion , democratic idea anthony lewis comes close point asks respect clinton 's presidency depend acting effectively serbian aggression \? first nothing genocide would betrayal values allies profess \( times , 4 26 93 \) 's merely betrayal values 's serbs attacking us proxy , hitler one argument decisive action west heard different form , war balkans europe hear , bosnians europe 's palestinians say , palestinian refugee problem key instability middle east , hundreds thousands yugoslav refugees result turmoil europe decades come one lessons twentieth century even though atlantic ocean divides us , americas ultimately tied destiny europe europe , u inevitably affected drawn problems , sooner later drawn past history shown , 's much better decisively , quickly terms sincerely , ronald
center policy research cpr igc apc org subject zionist leaders' frank statements nf id r cdp cdp 000 407 nf cdp uucp ! cpr may 15 05 34 00 1993 lines 17 dear pete , one zionist , least know hebrew , young man last sentence posting read medina amim \( amim \) n't want address comments speak best regards palestinian jewish origin talks , reads writes hebrew hate jews anybody else elias
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject baltic states realism 'virvir' drivel reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 173 article zip eecs umich edu cairo eecs umich edu \( stuart \) writes way , entire paragraph closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape tartars proceeded work extermination troops surrounded village village little resistance offered artillery knocked huts heaps stone dust villages became untenable inhabitants fled fields , bullets bayonets completed work tartars escaped course found refuge mountains succeeded crossing border turkey rest killed whole length borderland russian armenia nakhitchevan akhalkalaki hot plains ararat cold mountain plateau north dotted mute mournful ruins tartar villages quiet , villages , except howling wolves jackals visit paw scattered bones dead ohanus appressian men like p 202 , point invariably miss n't vague let us shall \? entire paragraph ``as turks solved armenian problem turkey slaying driving armenians country , proceeded solve tartar problem armenia closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape tartars proceeded work extermination troops surrounded village village little resistance offered artillery knocked huts heaps stone dust , villages became untenable inhabitants fled fields , bullets bayonets completed work tartars escaped course found refuge mountains succeeded crossing border turkey rest killed whole length borderland russian armenia nakhitchevan akhalkalaki , hot plains ararat cold mountain plateau north , dotted mute mournful ruins tartar villages quiet , villages , except howling wolves jackals visit paw scattered bones dead ohanus appressian , l r hartill , like , '' bobbs merrill company , london , 1928 p 202 descend total inability distinguish 'the cold blooded genocide muslim people 'the armenian war' incredible , please provide us corrections source stanford j shaw , armenian collaboration invading russian armies 1914 , history ottoman empire modern turkey \( volume ii reform , revolution republic rise modern turkey , 1808 1975 \) \( london , cambridge university press 1977 \) pp 315 316 april 1915 dashnaks russian armenia organized revolt city van , whose 33 , 789 armenians comprised 42 3 percent population , closest armenian majority city empire leaving erivan april 28 , 1915 , armenian volunteers reached van may 14 organized carried general slaughter local muslim population next two days knowing numbers would never justify territorial ambitions , armenians looked russia europe fulfillment aims armenian treachery regard culminated beginning first world war decision revolutionary organizations refuse serve state , ottoman empire , assist instead invading russian armies hope participation russian success would rewarded independent armenian state carved ottoman territories armenian political leaders , army officers , common soldiers began deserting droves russian invasion eastern anatolia 1914 beginning world war , degree armenian collaboration ottoman 's enemy increased drastically ottoman supply lines cut guerilla attacks , armenian revolutionaries armed armenian civil populations , turn massacred muslim population province van anticipation expected arrival invading russian armies meanwhile , czar nicholas ii came caucasus make final plans cooperation armenians ottomans , president armenian national bureau tiflis declaring response countries armenians hurrying enter ranks glorious russian army , blood serve victory russian arms let russian flag wave freely dardanelles bosporus let , , great majesty , peoples remaining turkish yoke receive freedom let armenian people turkey suffered faith christ receive resurrection new free life protection russia ' 155 armenians flooded czarist armies preparations made strike ottomans rear , czar returned st petersburg confident day finally come reach istanbul 155 horizon , tiflis , november 30 , 1914 , quoted hovannisian , road independence , p 45 fo 2485 , 2484 46942 , 22083 ottoman morale military position east seriously hurt , way prepared new russian push eastern anatolia , accompanied open armenian revolt sultan 156 156 hovannisian , road independence , pp 45 47 , iii 1 , pp 349 380 w e allen p muratoff , caucasian battlefields , cambridge , 1953 , pp 251 277 ali , harb , 2 vols , ankara , 1951 , ii , 41 160 fo 2146 fo 2485 fo 2484 , nos 46942 22083 armenian state organized van russian protection , appeared muslim natives dead driven away , might able maintain one oldest centers ancient armenian civilization armenian legion organized 'to expel turks entire southern shore lake preparation concerted russian drive bitlis vilayet ' 162 thousands armenians mus major centers east began flood new armenian state mid july many 250 , 000 armenians crowded van area , crisis housed fed 50 , 000 people , muslim non muslim alike 163 162 hovannisian , road independence , p 56 , nos 163 , vukela mazbatalari , debates august 15 17 , 1915 ali evrak odasi , 175 , 321 , van ami , 1333 10 september 1915 point , original quote used term , '' distinct , '' perhaps feel free make minor adjustments name truth went weeks ago comes entire turkish population armenia \( armenians called tartars \) constituted least 40 total population armenia deliberately exterminated \( population statistics , please look book richard , armenia road independence \) listed three books earlier monstrous crime writings one armenian , one american , one british men like leonard r hartill adventures near east rawlinson world alive , personal story robert dunn also , personally copies documents crime writings two armenians also one american official british report massacre mentioned one documents \( lord curzon interview \) report british high commissioner , sir oliver wardrop appropriate analogy jewish holocaust might systematic extermination entire muslim population independent republic armenia consisted least 30 40 percent population republic memoirs armenian army officer participated eye witnessed atrocities published u 1926 title 'men like ' references abound \( rachel bortnick jewish times june 21 , 1990 \) need go \? serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject armenia get away turkish genocide 's cover reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 118 article galaxy ucr edu raffi watnxt08 ucr edu \( raffi r kojian \) writes know true n't \? well , apparently another son dro 'the contend indeed happy know huge discussion distortions propagated several contemporaries feel simply act armenian governmental crony forum sadly mistaken duly embarrassed lecture another historical revisionist genocide apologist , fact article article , paragraph paragraph , line line , lie lie , revision revision , written net , plan armenian genocide 2 5 million turks kurds nothing less classic un redressed genocide neither x soviet union , similar ultra nationalist fascist dictatorship , employs dictates hitler domestic unrest also , feel free distribute responses nearest asala sdpa arf terrorists , armenian pseudo scholars , affiliated armenian criminal organizations x soviet armenian government got away genocide 2 5 million turkish men , women children enjoying fruits genocide , like , get away genocide 's cover first world war ensuing years 1914 1920 , armenians premeditated systematic genocide , tried complete centuries old policy annihilation turks kurds savagely murdering 2 5 million muslims deporting rest 1 , 000 year homeland attempt genocide justly regarded first instance genocide 20th century acted upon entire people event incontrovertibly proven historians , government international political leaders , u ambassador mark bristol , william langer , ambassador layard , james barton , stanford shaw , arthur chester , john dewey , robert dunn , papazian , nalbandian , ohanus appressian , jorge blanco villalta , general nikolayef , general bolkovitinof , general prjevalski , general odiselidze , meguerditche , kazimir , motayef , twerdokhlebof , general hamelin , rawlinson , avetis aharonian , dr stephan eshnanie , varandian , general bronsart , arfa , dr hamlin , boghos nubar , sarkis atamian , katchaznouni , rachel bortnick , halide edip , mccarthy , w b allen , paul muratoff many others j c hurewitz , professor government emeritus , former director middle east institute \( 1971 1984 \) , columbia university bernard lewis , cleveland e dodge professor near eastern history , princeton university halil inalcik , university professor ottoman history member american academy arts sciences , university chicago peter golden , professor history , rutgers university , newark stanford shaw , professor history , university california los angeles thomas naff , professor history director , middle east research institute , university pennsylvania ronald jennings , associate professor history asian studies , university illinois howard reed , professor history , university connecticut dankwart rustow , distinguished university professor political science , city university graduate school , new york john woods , associate professor middle eastern history , university chicago john masson smith , jr , professor history , university california berkeley alan fisher , professor history , michigan state university avigdor levy , professor history , brandeis university andreas g e bodrogligetti , professor history , university california los angeles kathleen burrill , associate professor turkish studies , columbia university roderic davison , professor history , george washington university walter denny , professor history , university massachusetts caesar farah , professor history , university minnesota tom goodrich , professor history , indiana university pennsylvania tibor halasi kun , professor emeritus turkish studies , columbia university justin mccarthy , professor history , university louisville jon mandaville , professor history , portland state university \( oregon \) robert olson , professor history , university kentucky madeline zilfi , professor history , university maryland james stewart robinson , professor turkish studies , university michigan list goes serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject according r , armenians jews blatantly lying \? reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 370 article galaxy ucr edu raffi watnxt08 ucr edu \( raffi r kojian \) writes sedar , , second quote sahak melkonian frankly invented love well , could head n't screwed right ever happen , look window see non fascist x soviet armenian government east soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul power tear away veil illusion us create certainly possible severe artificial life support system imagined 'ethnic purity' us falsely trust structure support heart beats alien land \( sahak melkonian 1920 preserving armenian purity \) going lie invent quotes least use right date sound like asala sdpa arf idiots clowns crooks prefer imagine u ambassador bristol armenian jewish scholars trying mislead 'arromdians' , guest typical armenian clown source u library congress general correspondence container 34 dashnaks x soviet armenian government power everything world keep pot boiling attacking kurds , turks tartars committing outrages moslems massacring moslems robbing destroying homes last two years armenians russian caucasus shown ability govern especially ability govern handle races power source general bronsart wrote follows article july 24 , 1921 issue newspaper deutsche since moslems capable bearing arms turkish army , easy organize terrible massacre armenians defenseless people , armenians attacking sides rear eastern army paralyzed front russians , attacking moslem folk region well source john dewey , turkish tragedy , new republic , volume 40 , november 12 , 1928 , pp 268 269 armenians boasted raised army one hundred fifty thousand men fight civil war , burned least hundred turkish villages exterminated population armenia soviet republic 1920 ! ! ! sorry burst little bubble clown let us ask armenian scholars shall \? source hovannisian , richard g armenia road independence , 1918 university california press \( berkeley los angeles \) , 1967 , p 13 addition kars batum oblasts empire increased area transcaucasia 130 , 000 square miles estimated population entire region 1886 4 , 700 , 000 , 940 , 000 \( 20 percent \) armenian , 1 , 200 , 000 \( 25 percent \) georgian , 2 , 220 , 000 \( 45 percent \) moslem latter group , 1 , 140 , 000 tatars paradoxically , barely one third transcaucasia 's armenians lived erevan guberniia , christians constituted majority three seven uezds erevan uezd , administrative center province , 44 , 000 armenians compared 68 , 000 moslems time russian census 1897 , however , armenians established scant majority , 53 percent , guberniia risen 1916 60 percent , 670 , 000 1 , 120 , 000 inhabitants impressive change province 's ethnic character notwithstanding , , eve creation armenian republic , solid block 370 , 000 tartars continued dominate southern districts , outskirts ereven border persia \( see also map 1 historic armenia map 4 administrative subdivisions transcaucasia \) 1920 , '0' percent turk closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape tartars proceeded work extermination troops surrounded village village little resistance offered artillery knocked huts heaps stone dust villages became untenable inhabitants fled fields , bullets bayonets completed work tartars escaped course found refuge mountains succeeded crossing border turkey rest killed whole length borderland russian armenia nakhitchevan akhalkalaki hot plains ararat cold mountain plateau north dotted mute mournful ruins tartar villages quiet , villages , except howling wolves jackals visit paw scattered bones dead ohanus appressian men like p 202 quote , would love know source say source men like leonard ramsden hartill bobbs merrill company , indianapolis \( 1926 \) \( 305 pages \) \( memoirs armenian officer participated genocide 2 5 million muslim people \) example , camped one night half ruined tartar mosque , habitable building destroyed village , near border persia russian armenia course evening asked ohanus could tell anything history village cause destruction matter fact way replied , yes , assisted sack destruction , witnessed slaying whose bones saw day scattered among ruins p 202 \( first second paragraphs \) closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape tartars proceeded work extermination troops surrounded village village little resistance offered artillery knocked huts heaps stone dust villages became untenable inhabitants fled fields , bullets bayonets completed work tartars escaped course found refuge mountains succeeded crossing border turkey rest killed whole length borderland russian armenia nakhitchevan akhalkalaki hot plains ararat cold mountain plateau north dotted mute mournful ruins tartar villages quiet , villages , except howling wolves jackals visit paw scattered bones dead p 15 \( second paragraph \) tartars , part , poor lived villages cultivated small farms many continued way life nomadic forefathers drove flocks herds valley valley , plain mountain , mountain plain , following changed seasons ranged salt desert shores caspian sea far mighty caucasus mountains even village tartars primitive people , see armenians frankly despised tartars , , holding disproportionate share wealth country , regarded treated fact russians looked upon armenians much way armenians regarded tartars , far proving bond racially different neighbors , intensified attitude conduct part served exacerbate hostility p 20 \( second paragraph \) men armed , gathered together advanced tartar section village lights houses doors barred , tartars suspected happen great fear men hammered doors , got response whereupon smashed doors began carnage continued last tartar slain throughout hideous night , home terror , unable shut ears piercing screams helpless victims loud shouts men morning work finished p 109 \( second paragraph \) things , members party without administrative experience consequently government instituted quickly proved incompetent rule legitimate means members government working secret outside law became legally instituted , recognized governing body destiny armenia hands , proved incompetent better resume terrorist tactics characterized fight russian turkish governments outlaw days outstanding feature rule , power , , old days , trial execution without hearing man displeasure government official would tried condemned without arrest preference charges method execution government walk behind condemned man home street , place pistol back head blow brains simple way getting rid undesirable view government soon became common way paying debts p 203 \( first paragraph \) soldier succeeded driving bayonet tartar saw point weapon emerge back another soldier seized rock pounded tartar 's head armenian bayoneted sprang feet , weapon tartar 's body , , raising lips , clean blood , russian , ! ! ' \( sweet \) p 203 \( second paragraph \) one evening passed tartar village among ruins fire burning went fire saw seated group soldiers among two tartar girls , mere children girls ground , crying softly suppressed lying scattered ground broken household furnishings tartar peasant homes also bodies dead p 204 \( first paragraph \) soon asleep night awakened persistent crying child arose went investigate full moon enabled make way revealed wreck litter tragedy enacted guided child 's crying , entered yard house , judged appearance must home turkish family corner yard found women dead throat cut lying breast small child , girl year old p 118 slowly train along snow , cart loads boys ran along line , encouraging shrill tartar cries , beasts sticks carts , women , veiled tartar way , held children arms wrapped huddled among goods burdened carts sought protection wind cold old men plodded along foot across road barrier thrown leading reached barrier halted gunmen concealed among rocks opened fire women children scrambled carts , screamed , ran sought vainly safety massacre complete armenian soldiers near barracks , hearing firing turmoil , scene day abandoned tartar quarter completely destroyed p 192 great swarms peasants come hiding places retreat turks followed army advanced entered city army immediately began plundering stores left turks p 193 terrible vengeance taken upon tartars , kurds turks villages destroyed slain driven country p 195 fanatical dashnacks hated turks others order diminishing intensity tartars , kurds russians p 218 \( first second paragraphs \) russian troops terrible things turkish villages armenians spare tartars persisted , slaughtering prisoners , looting , rape massacre helpless become commonplace actions expected accepted matter course scenes massacres dead lay ground , numbers , like fallen leaves forest helpless defenseless sheep died soldiers die heat battle , fired courage , weapons hands , exchanging blow blow died helpless must , hearts brains bursting horror worse death p 133 \( first paragraph \) movement took us three thousand turkish soldiers captured russians left hands russians abandoned struggle retreat two thousand poor devils cruelly put death sickened brutality displayed , could make effective protest , mercifully , shot many burned death method employed put quantity straw hut , hut turks , set fire straw p 19 \( first paragraph \) tartar section town longer existed , except pile ruins destroyed inhabitants slaughtered fate befell tartar section p 22 \( second paragraph \) many men served russian army , trained soldiers armenians rich possessed arms tartars never received military training poor , possessed arms beyond knives shortly killing tartars village , revolution russia suppressed p 97 \( third paragraph \) within years , following beginning movement , invisible government armenians armenians established turkish armenia armed opposition turkish government secret government courts laws army called \( professional killers \) enforce decrees p 98 \( first paragraph \) dashnacks continual open rebellion turkish government p 98 \( third paragraph \) dashnacks engineered general revolt armenians turkish armenia mistaken belief european nations would intervene secure independence turkish armenia p 99 \( second paragraph \) dashnacks fanatics p 99 \( third paragraph \) dashnacks took advantage situation extended revolutionary activities russian province instituted campaign terrorism employed threats force securing contributions party funds rich armenians wealthy man would assessed stipulated sum refusal pay brought upon sentence death every member party pledged carry orders without question man assassinated , lots might drawn select executioner job might assigned one party p 130 \( first paragraph \) moments victory turks kurds tartars , armenians seeking vengeance p 130 \( third paragraph \) city scene confusion terror early days war , russian troops invaded turkey , large numbers turkish population abandoned homes fled russian advance p 159 \( second paragraph \) made cannon , huge gun lift required four men made balls cannon armenians could knock tartar houses able drive tartars p 181 \( first paragraph \) tartar villages ruins p 189 \( third paragraph \) dead tartar lay head pool mud blood , beard still need go \? serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject eyewitness account turkish family butchered reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 167 article galaxy ucr edu raffi watnxt08 ucr edu \( raffi r kojian \) writes another thing find interesting turks whine armenians taking control land turkey still occupying n cyrus gall even open mouths karabakh , turkish troops completely independent island cyprus wonder mess following greek cypriot attempt annex island greece aid greek army , turkiye intervened using legal right given two international agreements turkiye frequently conveniently forgotten people island , turkish cypriots turkish cypriots whose grandparents living island since 1571 next people turkiye know quite well greece greek cypriots never abandon idea hellenizing cyprus remain eternally hopeful greece , someday , whatever cost parties involved history speaks greece sole perpetrator invasion island sent troops july 15 , 1974 attempt legitimate government makarios release nikos sampson , member eoka national organization cypriot fighters convicted terrorist , shows mentality continues survive greece one forget sampson dedicated life turks cyprus , committed murder achieve goal , tried destroy island 's independence annexing greece course , greek governments bear consequences irresponsible conduct museum barbarism 2 irfan bey street , kumsal area , nicosia , cyprus house dr nihat ilhan , major serving cyprus turkish army contingent attacks launched turks greeks , 20th december 1963 , dr nihat ilhan 's wife three children ruthlessly brutally killed bathroom , tried hide , savage greeks dr nihat ilhan happened duty night , 24th december 1963 pictures reflecting greek atrocities committed 1963 exhibited house converted museum eye witness account turkish family butchered greek terrorists date 24th december , 1963 onslaught greeks turks , started three days ago , going defenseless women , old men children brutally killed greeks kumsal area nicosia witnesses worst example greeks savage bloodshed wife three infant children dr nihat ilhan , major duty camp cyprus turkish army contingent , mercilessly dastardly shot dead hiding bathroom house , greeks broke home glaring example greek barbarism let us listen relating said incident told mr hasan yusuf , eye witness , wounded terrible event night 24th december , 1963 wife hasan paying visit family major dr nihat ilhan neighbours mrs ayshe mora , daughter mrs ayshe 's sister novber also us sitting supper sudden bullets river direction started riddle house , sounding like heavy rain thinking dining room sitting dangerous , ran bathroom toilet thought would safer altogether nine persons hid bathroom except wife took refuge toilet waited fear mrs ilhan wife major doctor , standing bath three children murat , hakan arms suddenly great noise heard front door open greeks come combing , every corner house machine gun bullets moments heard voices saying , greek , want eh ! bullets started flying bathroom mrs ilhan three children fell bath shot moment greeks , broke bathroom , emptied guns us heard one major 's children moan , came 2 3 hours later , saw mrs ilhan three children lying dead bath rest neighbours bathroom seriously wounded happened wife \? remembered immediately ran toilet , , doorway , saw body brutally murdered street sound shots heard voices crying help , help one save us \? became terrified thought greeks came found dead would kill ran bedroom hid double bed passed distance could still hear shots mouth dry , came bed drank water put sweets pocket went back bathroom , exactly left hour ago offered sweets mrs ayshe , daughter mrs novber wounded waited bathroom 5 o'clock morning thought morning would never come wounded needed taken hospital finally , could walk , mrs novber , went street hoping find help , walked far , met people took us hospital operated regained consciousness said wounded house went brought mrs ayshe daughter staying three days hospital sent plane ankara treatment four months treatment still cannot use arm return cyprus , greeks arrested airport related told greeks detention released foot devastated turkish quarter went tonight sealed turkish quarter nicosia 200 300 people slaughtered last five days first western reporters , saw terrible kumsal quarter 2 , irfan bey , made way house whose floors covered broken glass child 's bicycle lay corner bathroom , looking like group waxworks , three children piled top murdered mother room next body woman shot head , told , home turkish army major whose family killed mob first violence today five days later , still lay rene daniel , \( daily express \) saw bathroom bodies mother three infant children murdered father turkish officer max , le figaro 25 26 january , 1964 serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject genocide 204 , 000 azeri people armenians 1988 1992 reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 172 article galaxy ucr edu raffi watnxt08 ucr edu \( raffi r kojian \) writes treatment armenians azeri 's equals treatment bosnian muslims getting bosnian serbs result living alternate universe 'arromdians' asala sdpa arf terrorism revisionism triangle ' real \? final goodbye azerbaijan photo associated press cemetery agdam , azerbaijan , family members friends burial victims killed fighting nagorno karabagh , right , hugged coffin containing remains brother , one victims copy koran lay atop coffin new york times , 3 6 92 final embrace photo associated press , right , coffin holding remains brother relatives grieve cemetery yesterday amid burial victims killed fighting nagorno karabagh washington post , 3 6 92 nagorno karabagh victims buried azerbaijani town refugees claim hundreds died armenian attack seven bodies seen today , two children three women , one shot chest appeared close range another 120 refugees treated agdam 's hospital include many multiple stab wounds thomas goltz washington post , 2 28 92 armenians burn azeri village new unrest armenian guerillas attacked strategic azeri village nagorno karabagh burned ground tuesday , commonwealth television reported channel one television said village , district , cut large number wounded left stranded itar tass news agency said several people killed 20 wounded attack village tass also said shells fired armenian villages azeri populated town , 6 miles south , demolished two houses damaged five others fierce fighting flared two weeks ago following crash azeri helicopter karabagh 40 people died \( reuters \) turkish daily news , 2 12 92 cis commander pulls troops karabagh , reuter correspondent agdam , reported battle wednesday , azeris burying scores people died armenians town khojaly , second biggest azeri settlement area 'the world turning back 's happening dying watching , ' one shouted group journalists helen independent , 2 29 92 armenian soldiers massacre hundreds fleeing families attackers killed soldiers volunteers defending women children turned guns terrified refugees survivors later described happened 's real slaughter began , ' said , one three soldiers survive 'the armenians shot shot came started carving people bayonets knives ' 45 year old man shot back said ' walking brush opened us people falling around wife fell , child thomas goltz sunday times , 3 1 92 armenian raid leaves azeris dead fleeing 1 , 000 khojaly 's 10 , 000 people killed tuesdays attack azerbaijani television showed corpses evacuated khocaly area brian killen \( reuters \) washington times , 3 2 92 atrocity reports azerbaijan azeri officials returned seen town nine miles away brought back three dead children , backs heads blown children scalped , ' said assad , aide karabagh 's azeri governor azeri television showed pictures one truckload bodies brought azeri town agdam , faces apparently scratched knives eyes gouged brian killen \( reuters \) washington times , 3 3 92 massacre armenians reported republic armenia reiterated denials militants killed 1 , 000 azeris dozens bodies scattered area lent credence azerbaijani reports massacre \( reuters \) new york times , 3 3 92 killings nagorno karabagh , journalists area reported seeing dozens corpses , including civilians , azerbaijani officials said armenians began shooting sought recover bodies fred hiatt washington post , 3 3 92 bodies mark site karabagh massacre local truce enforced allow azerbaijanis collect dead refugees still hiding hills forest bodies ordinary people , dressed poor , ugly workers 31 saw one policeman two apparent national volunteers wearing uniform rest civilians , including eight women three small children two groups , apparently families , fallen together , children women 's arms several , including one small girl , terrible head injuries face left survivors told saw armenians shooting point blank lay ground anatol lieven times \( london \) , 3 3 92 karabagh survivors flee mountains , deputy mayor khocaly , said armenian troops surrounded town 7 pm tuesday accompanied six seven light tanks armoured carriers 'we thought would bombard village , past , retreat attacked , defence force could n't anything tanks ' survivors described fired repeatedly way mountains safety 'for two days crawled way avoid gunfire , ' said daughter killed battle khodjaly , brother son died road anatol lieven times \( london \) , 3 3 92 corpses litter hills karabagh swooped low snow covered hills nagorno karabagh saw scattered corpses apparently , refugees shot ran suddenly thump azerbaijani helicopter fired armenian anti aircraft post anatol lieven times \( london \) , 3 4 92 police western azerbaijan said recovered bodies 120 azerbaijanis killed fled armenian assault disputed enclave nagorno karabagh said blocked recovering bodies wall street journal , 3 4 92 exiting troops attacked nagorno karabagh withdrawal halted armenians blamed video footage reports khocaly paint grim picture widespread civilian deaths mutilation one woman 's feet appeared bound paul quinn judge boston globe , 3 4 92 \( continued \) serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) subject armenia azerbaijan two views summary refuting azeri professor , dr rasizade organization p center regional studies lines 278 article 1993may15 seas smu edu pts seas smu edu \( paul thompson schreiber \) posted pts armenia azerbaijan two views pts pts washington report middle east affairs pts april may 1993 , vol xi , 9 pts pts pts pts pts life blockade yerevan pts pts nancy ms wrote personal observations somebody wishes counter reality described , fine pts pts pts pts conflict nagorno karabakh azeri perspective pts pts alec rasizade pts pts ar western readers learned nagorno \( upper \) karabakh ar controversy reports remote area western ar correspondents commentaries member long established ar armenian american community azeri views dispute ar appeared rarely western news media therefore let ar present washington report readers basic truths ar origins conflict past two years , one reads commentaries subject , small minority writers armenia azeri following interesting ar armenian leaders claim azerbaijan first oppress ar expel armenian minority azerbaijani republic actually , ar initiative banish azeri minority convert armenian ar republic homogeneous state began winter 1987 1988 , ar 165 , 000 azeris driven armenia following move , ar massacres armenians azerbaijani cities sumgait ar february 1988 two years later , baku january 1990 true simply checking newspapers , quote independent human rights report pax netherlands , 29 september 1991 , page 28 , read mid november , many incidents took place several places azerbaijan azeri popular front challenged communist party power ten days , authorities came tanks power nakhitchevan , last armenian villages deported , armenians attacked killed 40 , 000 armenian inhabitants fled city 22 november 8 december 1988 , refugees arrived armenia 167 , 000 azeris armenia chased away part world february 1988 start organized anti armenian pogroms azerbaijan come november december 1988 ! ar azeri parliamentary committees compiled evidence indicating ar events inspired moscow secure russian imperial rule ar , according roman principle divide ar rule similar conspiracies evident throughout five year ar history conflict interesting azeris killed , burnt , raped armenians perpetrators blame russians , armenians occasions ar time parties reach agreement \( ar , moscow , tehran , rome , geneva ata \) , ar invisible hand provoked bloodshed interested ar maintaining azeri armenian conflict , well georgian ar turmoil , imperialist forces russia , probably iran incorrect ! people nagorno karabakh ever involved agreement \? never azerbaijan sits armenians nagorno karabakh never end conflict ar armenian offensive last spring created 100 , 000 new azeri ar refugees captured towns upper lower karabakh ar adjacent rural districts today 500 , 000 azeri refugees ar city baku environs , providing problems newly ar elected popular front government , opposed ar nationalistic national independence party 's called war azerbaijanis n't try allow armenians nagorno karabakh live ways , keep armenian culture , armenians would defend existence azeris assumed armenians going roll play dead ar western style democracy survive small muslim country ar 1 million 7 million inhabitants unemployed \? ar absence international effort help azeri refugees , kurdish ar bosnian refugees helped , azeri government ar reject demand lands , homes ar possessions \? azeri government thought attempted deprive armenians lands , homes , possessions ar simple realities must understood west ar misunderstanding caucasian politics leads western russian ar public opinion imagine permanent , therefore irreversible , ar ethnic religious rivalry caucasus true , , dr alec rasizade , practice preach ! ar think western reluctance interfere derives idea ar meanwhile , continuation war could draw eastern western ar states conflict activation various security ar include , armenian side , moscow led ar commonwealth forces mutual security pact , signed ar may 15 , 1992 azeri side , turkey get involved ar nakhichevan autonomy kars treaty oct ar 13 , 1921 , include north atlantic treaty forces western interference ! turkish intervention ! moment turkey dares step conflict close doors chance turkey part europe \( ever \) destroy eastern third anatolia ! dr rasizade , international simple minded would us believe ar upper karabakh generally described western press reports ar armenian enclave within azerbaijan truth armenians ar began appear middle last century incorrect brief scan history addresses foolish claim armenians today , refer area nagorno karabakh artsakh , comes term azeris yet ! ancient greeks referred artsakh azeris yet ! first half 6th century b c , artsakh , part armenia media azeris yet ! end 4th century b c , artsakh part armenian kingdom ervan azeris yet ! artsakh still part armenian empire , artsakh refereed , part armenia azeris yet ! armenia divided persian byzantine 387 428 , artsakh part armenia azeris yet ! end 5th century , artsakh became principalities azeris yet ! 7th century artsakh dialect armenian formed azeris yet ! emperor \( 913 959 \) letter prince armenia central artsakh azeris yet ! decree paul \( 1797 \) , number armenian families area stated 11 , 000 16th 18th centuries non armenians central asia , asia minor , first began exercise political influence planes artsakh caucasian muslims around karabakh ! 1813 karabagh becomes part russia part russia muslims karabakh ! 1914 , number armenian churches nagorno karabagh 224 , 188 priests , 206 , 768 224 armenian towns villages armenian percentage population 90 max 10 azeris karabakh assuming kurds ! consider following statement azerbaijani december 1 , 1920 worker peasant government , informed proclamation armenia soviet socialist republic , sends greetings brother people day previous boundaries armenia karabakh , , nakhichevan recognized integral parts armenian republic long live brotherhood union workers peasants soviet armenia ! chairman n narimanov people 's foreign affairs ar years ago celebrated anniversary ar resettlement persia karabakh , came russian ar rule , incorrect 1988 celebration anniversary russian rule caucasus , including karabakh ! ar time russian colonial administration also drew ar russian german settlers , welcomed azeris ar would americans react large numbers armenians living ar southern california suddenly claimed armenian homeland , ar demanded separation california \? non sequitur ar armenian historians insist armenian resettlement ar karabakh inhabited christians correct armenian historians n't say ! ar people medieval caucasian albania adopted christianity ar fourth century ancient residents link ar nothing common armenians considering caucasian armenian apostolic faith , utilization armenian language liturgy , makes argument totally invalid ! ar azeris would better claim ar successors albania , since azeris centuries inhabited , ar dominated , developed karabakh part azeri nation wishing part people non existent nearly millennium geo political advantage rather outrageous addition absurdity , azeris claim turks , persians , minorities , lezgians , kurds , , , host nationalities may amount nearly half population azerbaijan ar armenia azerbaijan last year signed final act ar conference security cooperation europe 1975 , ar paris charter new europe 1990 , confirming mutual ar adherence principle existing borders ar principle means borders territorial integrity ar republic azerbaijan guaranteed ar nations , turkey agreements give azerbaijan right de karabakh armenians ar one key intervention behalf either u n , ar csce , commonwealth , nato iran second key ar caucasian knot determine aggressor , according ar u n definition 1974 fine , azerbaijan refused allow un troops armenian enclave \? azerbaijan afraid \? perhaps fact territory home armenians , un , would definition , support local population ! ar accomplished , international community ar apply aggressor caucasus international sanctions ar presently employed serbia montenegro ar former yugoslavia decisive collective international action ar halt aggression karabakh , prevent armenian azeri ar conflict growing spreading azerbaijan 's refusal allow armenians karabakh determine future issue , viewing isolating events context actions address karabakh conflict viewing events war isolation context like viewing landing normandy act allied aggression ! ar dr alec rasizade , senior research officer academy sciences ar azerbaijan , visiting researcher institute ar columbia university new york ha ! david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org armenia learned lesson p center regional studies anatolia forgotten p box 382761 punishment inflicted 4 14 93 cambridge , 02238 late turkish president turgut ozal
freenet carleton ca \( nigel allen \) subject text president clinton 's letter congress iranian assets reply freenet carleton ca \( nigel allen \) organization national capital freenet , ottawa lines 143 press release white house text president clinton 's letter congress iranian assets national desk contact white house press office , 202 456 2100 washington , may 14 following letter president clinton wrote congress iranian assets congress united states hereby report congress developments since last presidential report november 10 , 1992 , concerning national emergency respect iran declared executive order november 14 , 1979 , matters relating executive order october 29 , 1987 report submitted pursuant section 204 \( c \) international emergency economic powers act , 50 u c \( c \) , section 505 \( c \) international security development cooperation act 1985 , 22 u c 9 \( c \) report covers events march 31 , 1993 last report , dated november 10 , 1992 , covered events october 15 , 1992 1 amendments iranian transactions regulations \( itrs \) , 31 part 560 , iranian assets control regulations \( \) , 31 part 535 , since last report 2 office foreign assets control \( fac \) department treasury continues process applications import licenses itrs however , previously reported , recent amendments itrs resulted substantial decrease number applications received relating importation iranian origin goods reporting period , customs service continued effect numerous seizures iranian origin merchandise , primarily , violation import prohibitions itrs fac customs service violations resulted forfeiture actions imposition civil monetary penalties additional forfeiture civil penalty actions review 3 iran united states claims tribunal \( tribunal \) , established hague pursuant algiers accords , continues make progress claims since last report , tribunal rendered 12 awards , total 545 awards total , 367 awards favor american claimants 222 awards agreed terms , authorizing approving payment settlements negotiated parties , 145 decisions merits tribunal issued 36 decisions dismissing claims merits 83 decisions dismissing claims reasons 59 remaining awards , 3 approved withdrawal cases , 56 favor iranian claimants march 31 , 1993 , awards successful american claimants security account held nv settlement bank stood 2 , 340 , , 357 77 march 31 , 1993 , security account fallen required balance 500 million 36 times iran periodically account , required algiers accords , transferring funds separate account held nv settlement bank interest security account deposited iran also account proceeds sale iranian origin oil imported united states , pursuant transactions licensed case case basis fac iran , however , account since last oil sale deposit october 8 , 1992 aggregate amount transferred interest account security account 874 , 472 , 986 47 march 31 , 1993 , total amount security account 216 , 244 , 986 03 , total amount interest account 8 , 638 , 133 15 4 tribunal continues make progress arbitration claims u nationals 250 , 000 00 since last report , nine large claims decided 85 percent claims disposed , settlement , voluntary withdrawal , leaving 76 claims larger claims , resolution slowed complexity , finally resolved , sometimes sizable awards u claimants example , two claimants awarded 130 million tribunal october 1992 5 anticipated may 13 , 1990 , agreement settling claims u nationals less 250 , 000 00 , foreign claims settlement commission \( \) continued review 3 , 112 claims issued decisions 1 , 201 claims , total awards 22 million expects complete remaining claims early 1994 6 coordination concerned government agencies , department state continues present united states government claims iran , well responses united states government claims brought iran november 1992 , united states filed 25 volumes supporting information case b 1 \( claims 2 3 \) , iran 's claim united states damages relating foreign military sales program february year , united states participated conference several cases involving military equipment iran also filed new dispute failure u courts enforce award u corporation violated algiers accords 7 reported november , jose maria , president tribunal , resignation october 2 , 1992 successor yet named judge 's resignation take effect soon successor becomes available take duties 8 situation reviewed continues involve important diplomatic , financial , legal interests united states nationals iran 's policy behavior presents challenges national security foreign policy united states issued pursuant executive order continue play important role structuring relationship iran enabling united states implement properly algiers accords similarly , itrs issued pursuant executive order continue advance important objectives inter national terrorism shall exercise powers disposal deal problems report periodically congress significant developments william j clinton white house , may 14 , 1993 30 nigel allen , toronto , ontario , canada freenet carleton ca
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject muslim women children massacred armenians reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 85 article galaxy ucr edu raffi watnxt08 ucr edu \( raffi r kojian \) writes come \? image conscious armenians sorely feel missing glory background armenians never achieved statehood independence , always subservient , engaged undermining schemes rulers committed genocide muslim populations eastern anatolia x soviet armenia world war fully participated extermination european jewry world war ii , genocide , back stabbing , hallmarks armenian history episodes armenians engaged history suit whims zeal tried cover cold blooded genocide 2 5 million turks kurds world war source documents volume \( 1919 \) document 50 , archive 4 , cabin 162 , drawer 5 , file , section 433 , contents 6 , 6 1 , 6 2 \( division command militia commander ismail \) note target armenians many independent times long beautiful history including independent ignorance hardly characteristic ' sarkis atamian explains book called 'the armenian community , new york 1955 , philosophical , according historians , original fatherland armenians , greece armenian invaders burned sacked fatherland urartus , massacred exterminated population presented world left urartus , armenian civilization reliable western historians describe armenians ruthlessly exterminated 2 5 million muslim women , children elderly people eastern anatolia collaborated enemies muslim people 1914 1920 unfortunately truth armenians known collaborators nazis world war ii , even today , criminal members asala sdpa arf terrorism triangle preach instigate racism , hatred , violence terrorism among peoples please tell earth armenians fully participated genocide jews wwii , heavy drugs \? says 'arromdians' damn good \? world war ii armenians carried away german might nazis zeal , armenian publication germany , hairenik , carried statements follows 1 sometimes difficult eradicate poisonous elements \( jews \) struck deep root like chronic disease , becomes necessary people \( nazis \) eradicate uncommon method , attempts regarded revolutionary surgical operation , flow blood natural thing brief view armenian genocide muslims jews extracts letter dated december 11 , 1983 , published san francisco chronicle , answer letter published journal signature one b amarian first hand information evidence armenian atrocities people \( jews \) members family witnessed murder 148 members family near erzurum , turkey , armenian neighbors , bent destroying anything anybody remotely jewish muslim armenians look history see havoc ancestors perpetrated upon neighbors armenians league hitler last war , premise grant government , return , armenians would help exterminate jews armenians also hearty proponents anti semitic acts league russian communists signed ben levi , , california 1 james g , , , ' 'armenian review , ' quarterly hairenik association , inc , summer june 1957 , vol x , 2 38 stick around serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject x soviet armenian government must recognize turkish genocide reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 80 article galaxy ucr edu raffi watnxt08 ucr edu \( raffi r kojian \) writes suspect might pan certain people n't get \? years world war , x soviet armenian government planned perpetrated muslim people , took lives 2 5 million muslim people , also method used empty turkish homeland inhabitants day , turkish historic lands remain occupied x soviet armenia order cover fact usurpation historic turkish homeland , crux turkish political demands , fascist x soviet armenia continues anti turkish policy following ways 1 x soviet armenia denies historical fact turkish genocide order shift international public opinion away political responsibility 2 x soviet armenia , employing asala sdpa arf terrorism revisionism triangle , attempts call question veracity turkish genocide 3 x soviet armenia also implemented state sponsored terrorism asala sdpa arf terrorism revisionism triangle attempt silence turkish people 's vehement demands protests 4 using human , financial , governmental resources , x soviet armenia tools united states attempt silence terrorism , bribery subversive methods , non turkish supporters turkish cause , political , governmental humanitarian using aforementioned methods , x soviet armenian government attempting neutralize international diplomatic community making turkish case contemporary issue yet despite efforts x soviet armenian government terrorist revisionist organizations , last decades , thanks struggle whose closest ones systematically exterminated armenians , international wall silence issue begun collapse , consequently number governments organizations become supportive recognition turkish genocide full knowledge struggle turkish territorial demands still initial stages , turkish kurdish people continue sacred struggle , therefore victims turkish genocide demand 1 x soviet armenian government , heirs armenian dictatorship , recognize turkish genocide 2 x soviet armenia return historic homeland turkish kurdish people 3 x soviet armenian government make material reparations heinous unspeakable crime victims turkish genocide 4 world governments , especially united states , officially recognize turkish genocide turkish territorial rights refuse succumb armenian political pressure 5 u government free friendly position adopted towards unreliable ally , x soviet armenia , officially recognize historical fact turkish genocide well supportive pursuit turkish territorial demands 6 x soviet republics officially recognize historical fact turkish genocide include cold blooded extermination 2 5 million muslim people history books serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject u archives genocide muslim people armenians reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 158 article galaxy ucr edu raffi watnxt08 ucr edu \( raffi r kojian \) writes serdar , former government pay anything \? also crap genocide muslims \? thing , wo n't bother 's problem right sdpa arf' crooks idiots stole brain watch source world alive , personal story robert dunn crown publishers , inc , new york \( 1952 \) \( memoirs american officer witnessed armenian genocide 2 5 million muslim people \) p 361 \( seventh paragraph \) p 362 \( first paragraph \) 'the inside houses come look ' 'no , dammit ! stomach n't ' 'one turkish officer uniform must see ' trees mosque , open space 'i n't believe , said , followed nail door man pushed , spurred away , leaving check corpse thought , charge constant , teeth went inside place cool ashes , dark first , stone walls window rags mud floor around iron embers vented smoke roof beams black soot looked bare empty , inner room flies buzzed door swung shut behind saw came man 's body lying face , naked fifty years old left face rifle butt bashed eye one left slanted , tartars rather turks uniform gone , 'd proof , quickly went , mess slashed genitals p 363 \( first paragraph \) 'how many people lived \? ' 'oh , eight hundred ' see turk officers \? ' 'no , sir dawn tartar civilians mufti ' lieutenant , , small hours voice woke dro 's stood starlight officer anyone long furiously 'd never heard abruptly dro broke laughter , quick simple child 's cover sense guilt , thought , hoped somehow , despite boast , christian massacring horrible reverse would , armenian villagers poured miles around women plundered happily , like ravens picked carcass djul hauled every 's , last scrap food cloth , staggered away , packing pots , saddlebags , , even spinning wheels lot , dro , ' said back camp 'but must leave ' shook hands , captain said 'a , mon ' hours old scout plodded north across plains like lot 's wife looked back see smoke bathing , doubtless sack moslem villages line snow iran ' p 354 morning tea , dro officers spread map whole high region called karabakh deep tactics , spoke russian , got contempt allied zones distrust promises made tribal chiefs campaign shaped raids moslem villages p 358 three hours take , dro told 'd close three sides men foot shoot , use bayonets , said , rifle morale , dro put must keep moslems terror soldiers civilians \? asked difference , said dro armed , uniform women children \? fly others best may p 360 ridges circled wide , floors still hundreds feet , fog held , solid cotton flock lies , ' said dro , pointing men also attack sides ' , ee ! ' whistle lined rock edge bayonets clicked upon plunged , black followed staff , horde nose tail , bellies taking spur armenia action seemed like war , even though heard utica brass roar watched height , took ages djul show clear tsing machine gun fire took thumping batteries cattle , dogs , invisible , ate hunk cheese drank snow puddle mist last folded upward men shouted , first heard faintly came shrill wailing among cloud streaks rose darker smoke red house walls stone wattle , dry weeds roofs mosque stood clump trees , thick green crooked alleys fire , figures mounted foot ! ' shouted gunner others escape rocks , one twisted bronze shell nose , loaded , yanked breech cord , firing shots wasted , thought , afternoon looked vain fallen branch body shots white bursts shrapnel gullies drowned women 's cries length shooting got horse rode toward djul burned still little flame showed way steep tough , dense scrub finally flatter ground came suddenly , , smoldering houses across trampled wheat brothers arms leading animals , several calves lamb p 361 \( fourth paragraph \) corpses came next , first pretty child straight black hair , large eyes looked twelve years old lay stubble meal lay scattered sack 'd toting bayonet gone back , judged , blood around scant breasts one clot , small bullet wound , dress next boy ten less , rawhide jacket knee pants lay face path several huts one arm reached bowl 'd carried , upset upon dough steel neck , spine , , saw led around djul empty living till looked see beside dro 's german speaking colonel said tartars escaped dead p 358 stories armenian murdering turks czarist troops fled north hosts told duty keep tabs , turkish troop shifts , hidden arms , spies christian , red tartar coming spoke hell would break loose versailles put , threatened , six vilayets turkey control erevan armenia without armenians ! turks christian rule \? lips smacked irony droopy red moustache 's bloodshed smyrna bigger scale serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject charming habits armenian barbarism fascism reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 119 article galaxy ucr edu raffi watnxt08 ucr edu \( raffi r kojian \) writes nice strategy sedar , maybe make many stories happened wwi confuse everybody forgetting armenian ah , poor genocide apologists charming habits armenian barbarism fascism swinging lies enough cover crimes x soviet armenian government chance let kurdish scholars speak source hassan arfa , kurds , \( london , 1968 \) , pp 25 26 russian armies invaded turkey disaster 1914 , columns preceded battalions irregular armenian volunteers , caucasus turkey one commanded certain , blood thirsty armenian volunteers committed kinds excesses , six hundred thousand kurds killed 1915 1916 eastern vilayets turkey sources \( ottoman state , ministry war \) , islam ahalinin ducar olduklari mezalim hakkinda vesaike mustenid malumat , \( istanbul , 1918 \) french version documents aux par les armeniens sur la population , \( istanbul , 1919 \) latin script h k turkozu , ed , osmanli sovyet belgeleriyle ermeni mezalimi , \( ankara , 1982 \) addition z basar , ed , ermenilerden gorduklerimiz , \( ankara , 1974 \) , edited author , ermeniler hakkinda makaleler derlemeler , \( ankara , 1978 \) askeri tarih belgeleri , vol 32 , 83 \( december 1983 \) , document numbered 1881 askeri tarih belgeleri , vol 31 , 81 \( december 1982 \) , document numbered 1869 capable fighting taken away beginning excuse forced labor road construction , taken direction sarikamis annihilated russian army withdrew , part remaining people destroyed armenian massacres cruelties thrown wells , locked houses burned , killed bayonets swords , places selected butchering spots , bellies torn open , lungs pulled , girls women hanged hair subjected every conceivable abominable act small part people spared abominations far worse cruelty inquisition resembled living dead suffering temporary insanity dire poverty lived frightful experiences subjected including women children , persons discovered far exceed one thousand five hundred erzincan thirty thousand erzurum fields erzincan erzurum , everything people taken away , found situation present time , people subsisting food obtained , impelled starvation , russian left behind occupation area source adventures near east rawlinson , jonathan cape , 30 bedford square , london , 1934 \( first published 1923 \) \( 287 pages \) \( memoirs british officer witnessed armenian genocide 2 5 million muslim people \) p 184 \( second paragraph \) received definite information horrors committed armenian kars plain , able judge want discipline treatment detached parties , wired tiflis zivin 'in interests humanity armenians left independent command moslem population , , troops without discipline effective control , atrocities constantly committed , justice eventually held morally responsible' p 177 \( third paragraph \) armenian troops , , pillaged destroyed moslem villages plain caravans refugees meanwhile constantly arriving plain , whole moslem population fleeing much personal property could transport , seeking obtain security protection p 178 \( first paragraph \) moslem villages plain searched arms armenians everything taken cloak search , many moslems killed , horrible tortures inflicted endeavour obtain information valuables hidden , armenians aware existence , although unable find p 181 \( first paragraph \) armenians plain attacking kurdish line artillery , probably large force support p 175 \( first paragraph \) arrival british brigade followed announcement kars province allotted supreme council allies armenians , announcement made , british troops completely withdrawn , armenian occupation commenced hence trouble armenians commenced wholesale robbery persecution muslem population pretext necessary forcibly deprive arms portion province lies plains able carry purpose , manner done referred due course serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) subject mosque jewish quarter \( israeli destruction \) nntp posting host orion oac uci edu organization university california , irvine lines 37 distribution world article bob1 cos bob1 cos com \( bob blackshaw \) writes always believed statement know history condemned repeat \( durant \? \) , beginning believe opposite true p newsgroups seems history mainly remembered hatred used club history people ample acts shame , done people done people since party acts , refuse accept blame evil acts ancestors committed , direct hatred toward descendants committed evil acts ancestors obsession discussions past \( present \) events seems largely centered trying prove worse us see , leads nowhere except make feel superior 's 've become addicted periodic injections self affirmation draw power hope begin sometime apply discussions way towards consideration situation , advancement negotiations search common ground parties involved course , happen ca n't believe best path making feel better expense others long coming together opposing parties pursue vision passion polarization specialists , stay stuck circus one 're getting precisely willing work shalom , salam , peace tim clock ph graduate student uci tel 714 , 8565361 department politics society fax 714 , 8568441 university california irvine home tel 714 , 8563446 irvine , ca 92717
aa824 cleveland freenet edu \( mark ira kaufman \) subject zionist leaders' frank statements organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 60 nntp posting host thor ins cwru edu elias davidsson writes ed dear pete , ed ed one zionist , least know ed hebrew , young man ed ed last sentence posting read ed ed medina amim \( amim \) ed ed n't want address comments speak ed ed best regards palestinian jewish origin talks , reads writes ed hebrew hate jews anybody else ed ed elias claim hate anybody may quite true statement easily visible intellectual corruption dominates everything post group complete lack objectivity toward israel , jewish identity general , reveal biases indicate great heap hatred ! certainly shown genuine hatred honesty objectivity repeatedly post items quotes removed original context used agenda rabid opposition existence israel used dishonest technique paint false image several israeli leaders ca n't say actually hate leaders , lies misrepresentations suggest prejudice , claim hate anybody , ample body evidence suggest claim false obvious hate israel , evident hate jewish people , jewish , self hating jew doubt although call upon jewish background effort claim high moral ground , doubt would like see jewish people fade away completely , people advocacy intermarriage purpose jewish people proof hate jewish people effort jewishness jews , 've clearly demonstrated hate jew \? person whose integrity decays unmoved knowledge wrong done people j heschel
aap wam umd edu \( alberto adolfo pinkas \) subject zionist leaders' frank statements organization university maryland , college park lines 27 nntp posting host rac3 wam umd edu article dtr usenet ins cwru edu aa824 cleveland freenet edu \( mark ira kaufman \) writes , jewish , self hating jew doubt doubts n't define self hating jew means \? found idea self hating jew one rediculous things people repeat repeat seems meaning fact none hope come definition something like look person , self hating jew jew \? person whose integrity decays unmoved knowledge wrong done people j heschel get moved see israeli army killing people occupied territories much get moved see people israel aap
eskimo com \( herb \) subject rabin palestinians organization eskimo north \( 206 \) 367 3837 seattle , wa lines 12 providing safety security one 's people fundamental responsibility political entity palestinian leadership refuse accept responsibility , e take responsibility protect people radical palestinian elements opposed peace process , reprehensible argue palestinian police force would established order control peaceful political groups reality palestinian leadership , far , exercise control radical palestinian elements effectively deal killing palestinians palestinians problem solved palestinian people
benali alcor concordia ca \( ilyess b bdira \) subject saudi clergy western supporters vs human rights keywords international , non usa government , government , civil rights , social issues , politics nntp posting host alcor concordia ca organization concordia university , montreal , canada lines 92 bakken cs arizona edu \( dave bakken \) writes article benali alcor benali alcor concordia ca \( ilyess b bdira \) writes would defended saudi arabia rolled back iraqi invasion , charge saudi arabia \? \? \? muslims knew whole thing set destroy iraq , liberate kuwait , people killed invasion \( many many \) , ones killed iraqis smaller invasion lived west , seen media prepared \( helpless naive americans \) war iraq even artificial conflict iraq kuwait led invasion , cia correctly predicted \( pretended surprised know \) happened saddam arrogant stupid would done muslims would choose 300 dead kuwaitis 200 , 000 dead iraqis 1000 dead kuwaitis first case would happen western intervention happened , second case direct indirect result western human rights kuwait \? human rights iraq \? west gave saddam green light slaughter people \? give reason rich kuwaitis mind , deserve democracy , iraqis might , n't simple , whether want admit think good idea governments official religion \( de facto de \) , human nature like , ambitious always ones rise power many people world \( country \) citizens really know leader really devout slick operator necessarily best solution , view islamic state \( media made hate \) includes benefits secular state minus injustices ever read book rashid al \( tunisia \) , hassan \( sudan \) \? know self , self controlled media make kind campaign moderate thinker , keep quite extremist muslim scholar bin saudi arabia , encourage moderation arab world make sound like guys angels , ilyess \( clarinet posting edited stuff following \? \? \? \) , irrelevent stuff took go around copyright \( \) \) ceased take times seriously issues concerning islam become one biggest enemies \( although less daily since took \) lies , selects facts fits agenda even prints racist open anti muslim editorials claimed articles bunch lies selected facts true persons , members actually defence lawyers university science professors wanted fight corruption , uncover atrocities opposition activists minority , generally increase awareness rights citizens thing common people concern deterioration human rights since saudi took green light america \( gulf \) whatever necessary stay power know saudi ulema taught things \? ones official conservative ones opposing members human rights pro women wanted defend , precisely one reason bin 's fatwah implied illegality committee claim represents outside interests human rights issue saudi arabia , ny times chose ignore main issue select members committee actually defend actions done \( including banning jobs surprised really , first time official ulema extremist anti women meat heads saudi arabia , west continues campaign discredit muslim community , supporting well bosnia , guess zero credibility begin , heck lam \( feel shame , whatever want , hadith \) \( actually better translation meaning would feel ashamed \( god \) , whatever want \)
tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) subject zionist leaders' frank statements nntp posting host orion oac uci edu organization university california , irvine lines 43 article cville srv wam umd edu aap wam umd edu \( alberto adolfo pinkas \) writes article dtr usenet ins cwru edu aa824 cleveland freenet edu \( mark ira kaufman \) writes , jewish , self hating jew doubt doubts n't define self hating jew means \? found idea self hating jew one hope come definition try coming definition self hating peoples , reject culture point see absolute negatives culture \( generally , regarding particular event \) accept views purely opposing aspects culture \( thus , selective belief use historical facts complete ignoring context results \) hate culture certainly describes elias , since intention recognizing , alongside palestinian experience perspective , exists also israelis jew \? person whose integrity decays unmoved knowledge wrong done people j heschel get moved see israeli army killing people occupied territories much get moved see people israel aap , precisely israeli society tremendously harmed actions \( government \) felt take response perceived threat , long strident emotional debate pain israelis feel forced balance desires survival moral beliefs trauma make choice made worse fact neither conveniently brushed aside \( result reasoned political debate \) sake , reshaped tim clock ph graduate student uci tel 714 , 8565361 department politics society fax 714 , 8568441 university california irvine home tel 714 , 8563446 irvine , ca 92717
aap wam umd edu \( alberto adolfo pinkas \) subject zionist leaders' frank statements organization university maryland , college park lines 79 nntp posting host rac3 wam umd edu article 2150 news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) writes article cville srv wam umd edu aap wam umd edu \( alberto adolfo pinkas \) writes article dtr usenet ins cwru edu aa824 cleveland freenet edu \( mark ira kaufman \) writes , jewish , self hating jew doubt doubts n't define self hating jew means \? found idea self hating jew one hope come definition try coming definition self hating peoples , reject culture point see absolute negatives culture \( generally , regarding particular event \) accept views purely opposing aspects culture \( thus , selective belief use historical facts complete ignoring context results \) hate culture believe things getting mixed israel anti zionist seeing absolute negatives culture maybe , person see positives culture person opposes zionism actions state israel , one , consider actions state israel respect human rights palestinian people example action opposes jewish culture suppose uphold example respect jewish people learned , segregation years diaspora certainly describes elias , since intention recognizing , alongside palestinian experience perspective , exists also israelis might want recognize make self hating jew , far see , person telling truth jew \? person whose integrity decays unmoved knowledge wrong done people j heschel get moved see israeli army killing people occupied territories much get moved see people israel aap , precisely israeli society tremendously harmed actions \( government \) felt take response perceived threat , long strident emotional debate pain israelis feel forced balance desires survival moral beliefs trauma make choice made worse fact neither conveniently brushed aside \( result reasoned political debate \) sake , reshaped , far , seems blame always put read newsgroup , example , israel never guilty always responding actions , goes actions isreal also affect response cycle never ends also , blindness try understand feels always excuse always rationale explain things happen , worst part , seems time intention try de , care future , children , peace , etc , etc tim clock ph graduate student aap
schoinas fox cs wisc edu \( yannis schoinas \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians organization u wisconsin madison computer sciences lines 44 ahmed shakil cs yale edu \( shakil waiz ahmed \) writes article 1sueslinna6g minerva cis yale edu , jovanovic nick yale edu \( nick jovanovic \) writes muslim ex yugoslavia nation religion fact , muslims b h followers islam therefore , \( \? \) exist ex yugoslavia christian muslims yeah ! 's ! \) 've really outdone time nick n't forget davidian muslims \) islam race 's religion white , black , fijian alaskan guess n't absorb much malcolm x interest circulating see , whole point islam stresses equality amongst peoples , realize difficult comprehend given staunch beliefs serbian ethnic cleansing , give try , 's really difficult stomach right \? unable digest lunch \? cool context bosnia muslims nation nobody talked race civil war terms secession negotiated guns instead pens croat , muslim , serb political leaders chose fight terms secession instead compromising peacefully negotiating multilateral secession agreements terms secession \? , course , joking , right nick \? nobody chose fight bosnia croatia internationally recognized nations serbs attacked started well documented genocide makes outside aggressor 's simple genocide , classical example ethnic cleansing question civil war yugoslavia recognized nation apply principle self determination yugoslavia apply croatia bosnia course , might want apply bye , yannis
schoinas fox cs wisc edu \( yannis schoinas \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians organization u wisconsin madison computer sciences lines 68 michael sells sells haverford edu writes subject europe vs muslim bosnians f54oguocha date 13 may 93 02 28 53 gmt article 13may93 02285380 edison usask ca , f54oguocha edison usask ca writes previous article , josip eng umd edu \( josip loncaric \) wrote actually , first world war , many muslims killed serbs serbian led regime two world wars , many croats also killed \( especially dictatorship introduced jan 6 , 1929 \) josip , please , n't offended question muslims bosnian context \? know moslem muslim believer islam islam religion practised many parts world , yes definitely , ethinic group ok ! , bosnian muslims , \? ethnic group belong \? language \( \) speak \? different language serbs croats \? way western press use word 'muslim' bosnian debacle kept wondering meaning muslim moslem knew childhood changed dictionary question flames intended ! oguocha 've asked crucial question underlies much genocide bosnian muslims slavic ethnicity speak serbo croatian slavic ideology whereby true slavs christian anyone converted islam thereby must changed ethnicity changing religion see novels displays attitudes part calls people \( e christian slavs \) reason , war criminals call bosnian muslims turks even though ethnically turk speak turkish first language reason , actually genocide labeled ethnically identical religiously called , paradoxically , ethnic cleansing rather religious cleansing somewhat close truth n't forget nationality recent invention western europe days ottoman empire , religion main point difference social classes ottomans n't recognize turks , arabs , greeks , serbs christians , muslims , jews , interested parties ottoman society bosnian muslims turks , n't many real \( ethnic \) turks living even turkey today even europe , 's culture defines ethnicity religion part one 's culture thus , war serbs croats continuation wwii , older agenda , annihilation islam muslims bosnian , carried cover serbo croat war support \? bye , yannis
tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) subject zionist leaders' frank statements nntp posting host orion oac uci edu organization university california , irvine lines 131 article cville srv wam umd edu aap wam umd edu \( alberto adolfo pinkas \) writes article 2150 news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) writes try coming definition self hating peoples , reject culture point see absolute negatives culture \( generally , regarding particular event \) accept views purely opposing aspects culture \( thus , selective belief use historical facts complete ignoring context results \) hate culture believe things getting mixed israel anti zionist seeing absolute negatives culture culture referred israeli , anti zionist seen complete denial entity 's right exist legitimacy saying islam right establish implement state includes non muslims , absolute , one dimensional views culture regard issue state maybe , person see positives culture person opposes zionism actions state israel case , one would expect culture 's positives discussed regard issue hand since issue centers israeli culture , yet hear positives culture discussion , one , consider actions state israel respect human rights palestinian people example action opposes jewish culture suppose uphold example respect jewish people learned , segregation years diaspora agree also feel culture feels confronted another group wishes see culture disassembled , first culture little choice try secure survival well maintain moral center since culture turn away either matter survival moral principles , virtually impossible job balancing discuss israel 's faults crimes without recognition circumstance reality faces conscious decision based 's political biases , honest open understanding situation applies attempt paint palestinian movement bad dispense considerations reality facing certainly describes elias , since intention recognizing , alongside palestinian experience perspective , exists also israelis might want recognize make self hating jew , far see , person telling truth beg question centering symptoms issue self hating addresses motivations certainly feel anyone much effort , distorting robbing human context aspects culture reflecting degree dislike since bits culture bound , due upbringing , part , bit self dislike seems likely mixed somewhere jew \? person whose integrity decays unmoved knowledge wrong done people j heschel get moved see israeli army killing people occupied territories much get moved see people israel , precisely israeli society tremendously harmed actions \( government \) felt take response perceived threat , long strident emotional debate pain israelis feel forced balance desires survival moral beliefs trauma make choice made worse fact neither conveniently brushed aside \( result reasoned political debate \) sake , reshaped , far , seems blame always put read newsgroup , example , israel never guilty always responding actions , goes actions isreal also affect response cycle never ends also , blindness try understand feels well know , process blaming morally questionable actions one side forced \( , course \) take thoroughly practiced sides hearing pro israeli crowd 's self supporting arguments , may due fact listening anything else certainly hear similarly distorting pro palestinian pro arab element newsgroup \( well soc culture arabic \) always excuse always rationale explain things happen , worst part , seems time intention try de , care future , children , peace , etc , etc aap agree , agree , agree , agree however , response initial discussion davidsson opposing presentations , saw davidsson carefully putting academic frills around blatantly one sided series hate dislike , , , find approach opposing davidsson centered denial side certainly wonder degree davidsson 's views middle east distorted connected dislike rejection jewish lineage said , however , agree constant accusing others self hating jews seems pointless worse label , 're side , except perhaps imply certain degree overly enthusiastic tim tim clock ph graduate student uci tel 714 , 8565361 department politics society fax 714 , 8568441 university california irvine home tel 714 , 8563446 irvine , ca 92717
ilyess bohr concordia ca \( ilyess bdira \) subject upi \( two israelis , four arabs killed gaza keywords international , non usa government , government , fighting , civil rights , social issues , shooting , trouble nntp posting host bohr ece concordia ca organization ece concordia university lines 52 article israel clarinet com clarinews clarinet com \( upi \) writes gaza city , israeli occupied gaza strip \( upi \) palestinian gunmen sunday shot killed two israelis entered gaza buy cheap produce , two arabs assisting elsewhere crowded strip , israeli troops killed 18 month old infant 12 year old boy rock throwing clashes two refugee camps anybody guess title \? , thought clash israelis arabs resulted four deaths one side two drive shooting outside jewish settlement southern gaza prompted prime minister yitzhak rabin warn israelis illegal business occupied territories illegally settled \? sure signals israelis sending , one day willing accept jordan west bank federation , recognize west bank occupied territory \( neither u , honest \) \( details killings omitted , plo , hamas graffiti claim \) israelis entered gaza car driven man hebron , n't tell could israeli spy know later carried easily identified blue license plates arab vehicles west bank israelis enter gaza cars , carry yellow plates , usually stoned burned angry palestinian residents upi shows ugly face usually \? happened year , last year possibly thousands man low get bigoted enough see transmitted , tell something least close truth babies children venture outside homes usually shot killed israeli soldiers army officials said joint operation members plo tied fatah hawks hamas connected brigade , arose anger army 's killing six group past month groups sprayed graffiti walls khan , calling attack act killing comrades
josip eng umd edu \( josip loncaric \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians organization project glue , university maryland , college park lines 133 distribution world nntp posting host orbit src umd edu article 1993may15 husc3 harvard edu husc11 harvard edu \( milan \) writes article mojo eng umd edu josip eng umd edu \( josip loncaric \) writes annihilation islam \( turks \) older serbian agenda indeed , annihilation germans wwii however , important quote interview serbs wanted exterminate muslims , could done wwi , loved small nation europe serbs , although muslims bosnian muslims quite however , quite misrepresentation wwi , many bosnian muslims killed land taken serbs , motive plunder , fictitious rebellion even earlier , one point destruction mosques serbia expulsion muslims dr , political serbian regime , says memorandum expulsion presented royal government march 7 , 1937 , belgrade mode removal describes expulsion ethnic proceed state terror private initiative , e plunder private initiative , , assist greatly direction distribute weapons colonists , need old forms action organized secretly assisted whole affair presented conflict clans , need , ascribed economic reasons finally , local riots incited suppressed clans , rather army remains one means , serbia employed great practical effect , , secretly burning villages city quarters \( emphasis mine \) events serbia forced virtually muslims late 19th century policy state terrorism muslims , aided private initiative , continued wwii today example , book od \( sarajevo , 1974 \) writes \( pg 235 \) serbs killed muslim wwii even though claimed serbian patriot , explaining action follows inasmuch serb , serb name , turk e muslim since helped us , shall torture shot instead cutting throat past year , serbs repeated slaughter muslim residents destruction mosques , including historical monuments , completes muslim presence territories claimed serbs strongly dispute notion croats similar older agenda , fact , past century two , croats muslims seen lot common , generally friendly relations suggestion croat muslim relationship anything like serb muslim relationship completely wrong say croats muslims lot common imply separate peoples touching nearly cried read unfortunately , mostly untrue part claim untrue \? explain , withdraw claim croats croatia mostly contacts muslims , since mostly dealt extreme long time ago however one main agendas turning bosnia purely catholic state croatia never many muslim citizens historical reasons , part ottoman empire last major battles hungarian monarchy ottoman empire croatia end 17th century need remind modern croatian nationalism came dr , saw bosnian muslims best croats , much 1853 contemplated moving operations sarajevo \? confusing croatian nationalism political nationalism always stronger theories , clearly croat muslim alliance bosnia herzegovina trouble arguments clearly intended create deepen split add things j evans , foot b h describes catholic clergy last century apparently scared serbs , turks , serbs growing stronger , unlike turks , represented great danger idea catholic bosnia president tudjman clearly states book muslims exist separate nation croats serbs , many times suggested , even foreign papers , solution split bosnia josip knows working image croatia international relations 101 'll learn unless weak unite strong player , soon taken 's end balance power thinking brought together croats bosnian muslims natural unstable i'm working pointing basic fact croats muslims aware long serbia existed wrong think image stake croatia deep interest alliance bosnian muslims , vice versa think tudjman understands , although much choice point tensions better earlier , open confrontation developed although still think croatia survive , lose lot bosnian muslims may end even worse however , position horrible perhaps see getting worse key point still hope left \? , bets mr clearly , happy i'm deeply hurt image survival concept partnership believe natural essential croats muslims sigh josip
benali alcor concordia ca \( ilyess b bdira \) subject saudia cannot even control upi despite buying \) nntp posting host alcor concordia ca organization concordia university , montreal , canada lines 69 clarinews clarinet com \( upi \) writes update , omit lines , add overhead sake copyright \) say despite bad news muslims around world , things shaping well , lot killings might happen near future , though \( bosnia lot \) right , feel like saying martillo said stage set n't think things ten year , pessimistic realistic side , see stage set wars imposed people , governments remote controlled fight oppress people , confident fall venture list order sudan yemen alliance , algeria libya 5 years , tunisia one year later egypt may face direct colonization soon prevent islamic government might take egypt attacks sudan atrocities fails achieve victory meanwhile saudia faces civil war goes war yemen sudan , new north african alliance \( algeria libya \) goes war attacks u france involved everywhere cannot concentrate one place , especially syria jordan iraq kept control cloud clears , know end result , k back reality cairo , egypt \( upi \) cairo based arab organization human rights \( aohr \) sunday called king saudi arabia order release members kingdom 's first human rights group among group wants released mohamed ben abdullah al masaari , spokesman committee defense legitimate rights \( cdlr \) al masaari arrested dawn saturday residence riyadh 's king faisal university , worked physics professor , human rights media sources reported media reports said saudi security forces also seized publications , books , correspondence documents papers al masaari 's residence reportedly taken unknown destination london based liberty human rights group claimed five members together al formed cdlr may 3 , summoned police questioning might detained well thursday , saudi government ordered firing six activists established group urging people kingdom grievances report cdlr four activists sacked positions two state run saudi universities two government departments , two lawyers , including al masaari 's father , law offices closed , aohr said lawyer , al , described aohr first ever practice law kingdom aohr also claimed 400 people might arrested around country connection cdlr apparently people either responded group 's call reports grievances others closely linked founders saudi authorities reported also angered reports al masaari others met u diplomats based riyadh kingdom 's highest religious authority , higher council ulema \( muslim scholars \) , wednesday condemned creation rights group illegal unnecessary warned called establishment cdlr could aohr , whose 1992 report listed human rights violations saudi arabia , criticized ulema 's position argued kingdom 's islamic laws courts preclude creation human rights groups
eshneken ux4 cso uiuc edu \( edward shnekendorf \) subject upi \( two israelis , four arabs killed gaza keywords international , non usa government , government , fighting , civil rights , social issues , shooting , trouble organization university illinois urbana lines 70 ilyess bohr concordia ca \( ilyess bdira \) writes article israel clarinet com clarinews clarinet com \( upi \) writes gaza city , israeli occupied gaza strip \( upi \) palestinian gunmen sunday shot killed two israelis entered gaza buy cheap produce , two arabs assisting elsewhere crowded strip , israeli troops killed 18 month old infant 12 year old boy rock throwing clashes two refugee camps anybody guess title \? anyone figure kind deranged parent stupid enough bring infant rock throwing crusade \( jihad , sorry \) \? 18 month old infants certainly n't walk around streets would lead believe nimrod parent brought along little terrorism , thought clash israelis arabs resulted four deaths one side two thats happened drive shooting outside jewish settlement southern gaza prompted prime minister yitzhak rabin warn israelis illegal business occupied territories illegally settled \? sure signals israelis sending , one day willing accept jordan west bank federation , recognize west bank occupied territory \( neither u , honest \) \( details killings omitted , plo , hamas graffiti claim \) , last heard , territories disputed israel 's occupation illegal legally allowed remain settlement reached arabs , behavior palestinian team , probably never israelis entered gaza car driven man hebron , n't tell could israeli spy know later huh \? buying vegetables carried easily identified blue license plates arab vehicles west bank israelis enter gaza cars , carry yellow plates , usually stoned burned angry palestinian residents upi shows ugly face usually \? happened year , last year possibly thousands man low get bigoted enough see transmitted , tell something least close truth babies children venture outside homes usually shot killed israeli soldiers army officials said joint operation members plo tied fatah hawks hamas connected brigade , arose anger army 's killing six group past month groups sprayed graffiti walls khan , calling attack act killing comrades ed
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject one pathological liar \? reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 235 article galaxy ucr edu raffi watnxt08 ucr edu \( raffi r kojian \) writes would like say hope everybody knows everything serdar said lies coming idiot crook armenian , 'd take compliment criminal grandparents committed unheard crimes , resorted conceivable methods despotism , organized massacres , poured petrol babies burned , raped women girls front parents bound hand foot , took girls mothers fathers appropriated personal property real estate today , put azeris unbearable conditions nation ever known history source john dewey new republic , vol 40 , nov 12 , 1928 , pp 268 9 armenians turned turkish cities russian invader boasted raised army one hundred fifty thousand men fight civil war , burned least hundred turkish villages exterminated population references eminent authors field middle eastern history eyewitnesses armenian genocide 2 5 million 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muharrerat umumiye mecmuasi , v iii \( istanbul , 1916 \) muharrerat umumiye mecmuasi , v iv \( istanbul , 1917 \) \( osmanli devleti , hariciye nezareti \) imtiyazat ecnebiyye'nin lagvindan dolayi memurine teblig olunacak talimatname , \( istanbul , 1915 \) \( osmanli devleti , harbiye nezareti \) islam ahalinin ducar olduklari mezalim hakkinda vesaike mustenid malumat , \( istanbul , 1919 \) \( iv ordu \) aliye divan harbi orfisinde tedkik olunan mesele yi siyasiye hakkinda izahat , \( istanbul , 1916 \) turkozu , h k \( ed \) osmanli sovyet belgeleriyle ermeni mezalimi , \( ankara , 1982 \) turkiye buyuk millet meclisi gizli celse zabitlari , \( ankara , 1985 \) , 4 vols russia adamof , e e \( ed \) sovyet devlet arsivi belgeleriyle anadolu'nun taksimi plani , \( tran h rahmi , ed h mutlucag \) , \( istanbul , 1972 \) altinay , r iki komite iki kital , \( istanbul , 1919 \) kafkas yollarinda hatiralar tahassusler , \( istanbul , 1919 \) turkiye 'de katolik propagandasi , turk tarihi encumeni mecmuasi , v xiv 82 5 \( sept 1924 \) asaf muammer harb mesulleri , \( istanbul , 1918 \) akboy , c birinci dunya harbinde turk harbi , v osmanli imparatorlugu'nun siyasi askeri hazirliklari harbe girisi , \( gn kur , ankara , 1970 \) akgun , general harbord'un anadolu gezisi \( ermeni meselesi'ne dair \) raporu kurtulus savasi baslangicinda , \( istanbul , 1981 \) akin , turk devrim tarihi , \( istanbul , 1983 \) aksin , jon turkler ittihad terakki , \( istanbul , 1976 \) basar , z \( ed \) ermenilerden gorduklerimiz , \( ankara , 1974 \) ermeniler hakkinda makaleler derlemeler , \( ankara , 1978 \) belen , f birinci dunya harbinde turk harbi , \( ankara , 1964 \) deliorman , turklere karsi ermeni komitecileri , \( istanbul , 1980 \) ege , n n \( ed \) prens sabahaddin hayati ilmi mudafaalari , \( istanbul , 1977 \) ercikan , ermenilerin bizans osmanli imparatorluklarindaki rolleri , \( ankara , 1949 \) gurun , k 'ermeni sorunu yahut bir sorun nasil yaratilir \? ' , turk tarihinde ermeniler sempozyumu , \( izmir , 1983 \) hocaoglu , arsiv vesikalariyla tarihte ermeni mezalimi ermeniler , \( istanbul , 1976 \) karal , e osmanli tarihi , v v \( 1983 , 4th ed \) v vi \( 1976 , 2nd ed \) v vii \( 1977 , 2nd ed \) v viii \( 1983 , 2nd ed \) ankara kurat , osmanli imparatorlugu'nun paylasilmasi , \( ankara , 1976 \) orel , yuca ermenilerce talat pasa'ya atfedilen telgraflarin icyuzu , \( ankara , 1983 \) also english translation ahmad , f young turks committee union progress turkish politics , \( oxford , 1969 \) serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject since 's grandparents slaughtered 600 , 000 kurds reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 216 article galaxy ucr edu raffi watnxt08 ucr edu \( raffi r kojian \) writes sedar , seem nationalities mixed become spokesman kurds \? since criminal grandparents ruthlessly exterminated 600 , 000 kurds 1914 1916 eastern anatolia referring notes personal diary russian general l turkish front , wrote , nights 11 12 march , 1918 alone armenian butchers bayoneted axed death 3000 muslims areas surrounding erzincan threw victims pits , likely dug according sinister plans muslims , groups 80 counted 200 pits act world civilization march 12 , 1918 colonel wrote \( official russian account turkish genocide \) , roads leading villages bayoneted , joints carved organs muslim peasants alas ! mainly women children source doc dr azmi , russian view atrocities committed armenians turks , ankara , ankara , 1987 , pp 45 53 document 77 , archive 1 2 , cabin 10 , drawer 4 , file 410 , section , contents 1 12 , 1 18 \( acting commander erzurum regions commander second erzurum artillery regiment prisoner war , lieutenant colonel \) things heard seen two months , liberation erzurum turks , surpassed allegations concerning vicious , degenerate characteristic armenians russian occupation erzurum , armenian permitted approach city environs commander first army corps , general remained power , troops including armenian enlisted men , sent area security measures lifted , armenians began attack erzurum surroundings following attacks came plundering houses city villages murder owners houses plundering widely committed soldiers plunder mainly committed armenian soldiers remained rear war one day , passing streets horseback , group soldiers including armenian soldier began drag two old men seventy years certain direction roads covered mud , people dragging two helpless turks mud dirt understood later nothing tricks traps turks joined soon changed minds withdrew reason turks night patrol return , one knew happened turks sent outside city labour began disappear also finally , court martial established trials murderers , began fear would punished incidents murder rape , decreased , began occur frequently sometime january february , leading turkish citizen haci erzurum , killed one night home commander chief \( \) gave orders find murderers within three days commander chief bitterly reminded armenian intellectuals disobedience among armenian enlisted men reached highest point , insulted robbed people half turks sent outside city returned learnt details incident commander chief , follows killings organized doctors employers , act killing committed solely armenian renegades eight hundred unarmed defenceless turks killed erzincan large holes dug defenceless turks slaughtered like animals next holes later , murdered turks thrown holes armenian stood near hole would say hole filled corpses dead bodies , well , hole take ten ' thus ten turks would cut pieces , thrown hole , hole full would covered soil armenians responsible act murdering would frequently fill house eighty turks , cut heads one one following erzincan massacre , armenians began withdraw towards erzurum armenian renegades among withdrew erzurum erzincan raided moslem villages road , destroyed entire population , together villages transportation cannons , ammunition carriages outside war area , certain people hired among kurdish population conduct horse carriages travellers passing erzurum , armenians took advantage time russian soldiers dwellings began kill kurds hired russian soldiers heard cries dying kurds , attempted help however , armenians threatened russian soldiers would fate intervened , thus prevented acting terrifying acts slaughter committed hatred loathing lieutenant russian army described incident witnessed erzurum follows armenian shot kurd kurd fell die armenian attempted force stick hand mouth dying kurd however , since kurd firmly closed jaws agony , armenian failed attempt seen , armenian ripped open abdomen kurd , , finally killed stamping iron heel boot told us turks could escape village killed heads cut axes also told us seen thousands murdered children lieutenant colonel , passed village , three weeks massacre told us following thousands dead bodies hacked pieces , roads every armenian happened pass roads , cursed corpses courtyard mosque meter square , dead bodies piled height 140 among corpses men women every age , children old people women 's bodies obvious marks rape genitals many girls filled gun powder educated armenian girls , worked telephone operators armenian troops called lieutenant colonel courtyard mosque bitterly told proud armenians done lieutenant colonel 's disgusted amazement , armenian girls started laugh giggle , instead horrified lieutenant colonel severely girls indecent behaviour told girls armenians , including women , generally even wildest animals , indecent shameful laughter obvious evidence inhumanity barbarity , scene appalled even veteran soldiers , armenian girls finally remembered sense shame claimed laughed nervous armenian contractor communication zone command following incident took place february 20 armenians nailed turkish women wall cut women 's heart placed heart top head great massacre erzurum began february 7 enlisted men artillery division caught stripped 270 people took people bath satisfy lusts 100 people among group able save lives result decisive attempts others , armenians claimed , released learnt understood going among organized act envoy armenian officers , today , turks murdered streets february 12 , armenians shot ten innocent moslems russian soldiers attempted save people threatened death meanwhile imprisoned armenian murdering innocent turk armenian officer told armenian murderer would hanged crime , killer shouted furiously 'how dare hang armenian killing turk \? ' erzurum , armenians burned turkish market february 17 , heard entire population village , situated within artillery area , totally annihilated day antranik entered erzurum , reported massacre , asked track perpetrators horrible act however result achieved villages whose inhabitants massacred , natural silence night 26 27 february , armenians deceived russians , perpetrated massacre escaped fear turkish soldiers later , understood massacre based upon method organized planned circular population certain place killed one one number murders committed night reached three thousand armenians details massacre armenians fighting turkish soldiers number cowardly could even withstand turkish soldiers consisted five hundred people two cannons , one night , ran away leading armenians community could prevented massacre however , armenian intellectuals shared ideas renegades massacre , others lower classes within armenian community always obeyed orders leading armenian figures commanders like give impression armenian intellectuals accessories murders , people opposed armenians actions , since understood would yield result however , people minority furthermore , people considered traitors armenian cause seemingly opposed armenian murders supported massacres secretly , hand , preferred remain silent certain others , , accused russians infamy , would say following 'you russians never understand armenian cause ' armenians conscience would commit massacres would flee fear turkish soldiers incidents occurred recently clearly manifest real nature armenian ideology nothing already done undone serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject 2 5 million muslims perished butchery hands armenians reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 63 article com com \( robbie \) writes answer n't ask n't even think put line global kill file well , change fact period 1914 1920 , armenian government ordered , incited , assisted participated genocide 2 5 million muslim people race , religion national origin \? 1914 1920 , 2 5 million turks perished butchery hands armenians genocide involved killing innocents deportation russian armenia persecuted , banished , slaughtered much ottoman army engaged world war genocide treaty defines genocide acting intent destroy , whole substantial part , national , ethnic , racial religious group ' history shows x soviet armenian government intended eradicate muslim population 2 5 million turks kurds exterminated armenians international diplomats ottoman empire time including u ambassador bristol denounced x soviet armenian government 's policy massacre kurds , turks , tartars blood thirsty leaders x soviet armenian government time personally involved extermination muslims turkish genocide museums turkiye honor died turkish massacres perpetrated armenians eyewitness accounts historical documents established , beyond doubt , massacres muslim people war planned premeditated aim policy clearly extermination turks x soviet armenian territories muslims van , bitlis , mus , erzurum erzincan districts wives children taken mountains killed massacres trabzon , , adana organized perpetrated blood thirsty leaders x soviet armenian government principal organizers slaughter innocent muslims dro , antranik , armen , , , , , haig source bristol papers , general correspondence container 32 bristol bradley letter september 14 , 1920 absolute first hand information armenians caucasus attacked tartar \( turkish \) villages utterly defenseless bombarded villages artillery murder inhabitants , pillage village often burn village serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject 10 azeri soil occupied fascist x soviet armenia reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 117 article galaxy ucr edu raffi watnxt08 ucr edu \( raffi r kojian \) writes people think 10 azeri soil occupied fascist x soviet armenian government recently armenians attacked azeri town khojaly massacred thousands azeris paris based democracy human rights puts number victims 3 , 145 dead scalped mutilated sedar , , ever even considered buying dictionary \? know definition fascist \? n't look , post , prove say sunday times 8 march 1992 fill azeris head war thomas goltz , first report massacre armenian soldiers worst violence since breakup soviet union , reports agdam khojaly used barren town , empty shops dirt roads yet still home thousands people , happier times , tended fields flocks geese last week wiped map sickening reports azerbaijani border town agdam , bodies piled , little doubt khojaly stark gullies around site terrible massacre since soviet union broke apart last visit khojaly january people predicting fate grim resignation , mother four board helicopter us town , called community sitting ducks , ready get shot family among victims massacre february 26 armenians taken villages , one one , government nothing , 55 , father five , said next drive us kill us , said , wife couple , three sons three daughters killed assault , many people spoken close armenian lines knew would cross road , first units column ran across hell broke loose bullets raining sides entered trap azeri defenders picked one one survivors say armenian forces began slaughter , firing anything moved gullies video taken azeri cameraman , wailing crying filmed body body , showed grizzly trail death leading towards higher , ground villagers sought refuge armenians armenians shot shot shot , said omar , lying hospital agdam wounds saw wife daughter fall right people wandered hospital looking news loved ones vented fury foreigners daughter , son \? mother raped butchered lost azerbaijan said many 1 , 000 refugees killed tried flee armenians denied , saying civilians caught crossfire hitler asked world history would say extermination jews said today remembers armenians idiot real \? , remembers today extermination tartars \? ' \( adolf hitler , august 22 , 1939 ruth w \( \) , turkish holocaust turk , p 213 \) kill armenians age sex talaat pasha must left net believe asala sdpa arf forgeries clown turks kurds wherever find whatever circumstances find turkish children also killed form danger armenian nation ' \( hamparsum 1914 \) 1 1 varandian , history dashnaktsutiun , p 85 serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject criminal acts x soviet armenian government come directly reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 78 article galaxy ucr edu raffi watnxt08 ucr edu \( raffi r kojian \) writes serdar , explained propaganda certainly nothing true facts also today main source asala sdpa arf illegal activities still try make money bodies innocent victims turkish genocide criminal acts x soviet armenian government come directly scope convention genocide adopted general assembly united nations december 8 , 1948 , containing following provisions contracting parties , considered declaration made general assembly united nations resolution 95 \( 1 \) dated december 11 , 1946 , genocide crime international law , contrary spirit aims united nations condemned civilized world recognizing periods history genocide inflicted great losses humanity convinced , order liberate mankind odious scourge , international cooperation required members agree provided article 1 contracting parties confirm genocide , whether committed time peace time war , crime international law undertake prevent punish article 2 present convention genocide means following acts committed intent destroy , whole part , national , ethnical , racial religious group , \) killing member group b \) causing serious bodily mental harm members group c \) deliberately inflicting group conditions life calculated bring physical destruction whole part \) imposing measures intended prevent births within group e \) forcibly transferring children group another group article 3 following acts shall punishable \) genocide b \) conspiracy commit genocide c \) direct public incitement commit genocide \) attempt commit genocide article 4 persons committing genocide acts enumerated article 3 shall punished , whether constitutionally responsible rulers , public officials private individuals convention genocide existed armenian massacres turks kurds , would probably difficult x soviet armenian government start murdering civilian , defenseless , faithful ottoman citizens , children women , \( genocide attempt genocide \) , make plans exterminate , done also urartus jews , faithful ottoman citizens \( conspiracy commit genocide \) , armenians armed revolt legal authority commit genocide , \( direct public incitement commit genocide \) serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject armenian genocide 2 5 million muslims reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 60 article galaxy ucr edu raffi watnxt08 ucr edu \( raffi r kojian \) writes period 1914 1920 , armenian government ordered , incited , assisted participated genocide 2 5 million muslim people race , religion national origin \? x soviet gosh ! ! ! sedar , armenian government \? \? \? armenia n't even become wonder clown mess let 's take sarkis atamian 's \( armenian dashnak \) book , armenian community , pages 97 105 atamian quotes immediate question concerned organization tactics revolution liberation armenia , immediate aim party , attained 1 oral written propaganda 2 terrorism punishment enemy measure self defense 3 creation avant revolutionary groups equipped prepared action nations prepared general uprising 4 organization larger committees constant contact subject central body 5 organization units guerilla fighters , page 105 , atamian 's book quotes armenian constitution means revolution , revolution attained \? 1 propaganda 2 preparation combat units indoctrination 3 encouragement revolutionary morale people 4 arming people 5 organization revolutionary committees 6 espionage throughout country exchange information official bodies journals 7 organization financial zones public collection 8 weapon terror corrupt government officers , spies , traitors , , sorts 9 defense people attacks 10 building roads transport arms 11 wrecking looting governmental institutions many recent armenian terrorist acts turkish people committed brainwashed members , namely , race worshipers dashnag youth organization ironically , , set undisputed armenian nazi , , 1941 \( see atamian , loc cit , page 389 \) serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject europe vs muslim bosnians reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 48 article schoinas cs wisc edu schoinas fox cs wisc edu \( yannis schoinas \) writes nationality recent invention western europe days ottoman empire , religion main point difference social classes ottomans n't recognize turks , arabs , greeks , serbs christians , muslims , jews pardon \? ignorance cramps conversation although administrative mechanism strictly centralized one , ottoman empire classical example social order ' system' mechanism shaped social order multi national ottoman empire stood behind continuity matter fact , islamic principles force ottoman empire , natural use religious criteria differentiate among various communities constituted empire system began based ethnicity 19th century influence nationalism sousa writes existence thirteen communities ottoman empire addition muslim 1914 \( 1 \) greeks attached orthodox patriarchate istanbul \( 2 \) catholics merchants \( 3 \) gregorian armenians attached patriarchate istanbul \( 4 \) catholic armenians \( 5 \) syrian catholics attached patriarchate \( 6 \) catholics attached patriarchate \( 7 \) syrian attached patriarchate \( 8 \) protestants \( 9 \) attached patriarchate damascus \( 10 \) hebrews two rites \( 11 \) bulgarian catholics attached bulgarian \( 12 \) \( 13 \) nestorians 1 scholars studied social structure outlined briefly , concluded social order ottoman empire fit framework theory ' 2 1 n sousa , regime turkey , history , origin nature , \( baltimore , 1933 \) 2 c , story middle east , \( new york , 1951 \) , p 162 h r h bowen , islamic society west study impact western civilization moslem culture near east , \( oxford , 1951 \) serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject traditional historical armenian fascism barbarism reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 78 article galaxy ucr edu raffi watnxt08 ucr edu \( raffi r kojian \) writes five years ago karabakh voted overwhelmingly seperate azerbaijan , un enforcing \? mind compulsive liar works \? scenario genocide staged armenians 78 years ago x soviet armenia reenacted time azerbaijan remarkable similarities plots , perpetrators , underdogs stories survivors karabag massacre 69 year old nine telling twin grandchildren cut pieces front eyes told wo n't kill babies die front eyes '' 72 year old huseyin turkish village khojalu town blown two hours killing children babies mercilessly said turks , must die '' 28 year old gulsum huseyin bayonetted 3 year old daughter stomach front eyes '' stories lies \? eye witnesses day dreaming \? stories forged turkish journalists region \? nonsense claim clear writings british journalists , two days quoted sunday times article british reported events karabag even turkish journalists pictures pictures people bayonetted , whose eyes gouged , ears cut even armenian radio could n't claim lies saying exaggeration means ' happened situation bad reported perhaps village khojalu town destroyed 4 hours , instead 2 gulsum huseyin 's 3 year old daughter bayonetted chest instead stomach massacre clearly seen dimensions effects massacre karabag environs cannot reduced word western , led french newspapers , ability nothing complicity massacre yesterday gave samples le figaro yesterday 's print news real events karabag printed french tv channels subject considered related karabag ''the necessity protecting armenians azeri attacks '' age living termed human rights age lots organizations united nations csce \( conference security cooperation europe \) , rules , designed fight human rights violations international reactions must made international cooperation support everybody every organization claiming civilized could serious human rights violation right live levels barbarity cruelty \? cooperation \? reactions \? intellectuals , journalists , writers , tv stations certain western countries france fast claim leadership human rights \? \? serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
cs wisc edu \( \) subject saudi clergy condemns debut human rights group ! keywords international , non usa government , government , civil rights , social issues , politics organization university wisconsin , madison computer sciences dept lines 38 article optima cs arizona edu bakken cs arizona edu \( dave bakken \) writes article benali alcor benali alcor concordia ca \( ilyess b bdira \) writes looks like ben baz 's mind heart also blind , eyes used respect , today lost minimal amount respect struggled keep muslim netters guy gave fatwah saudi arabia used united attack iraq attacking iraqis drive kuwait , country whose citizens close blood business ties saudi citizens thinks us helped iraqis would swallowed saudi arabia , \( least eastern \) muslim country much anything help liberate kuwait protect saudi arabia indeed , masses citizens demonstrating favor butcher saddam \( killed lotsa muslims \) , killing , raping , looting relatively rich muslims also thumbing nose west whole saddam going invade saudi arabia nothing us state department propeganda saddam \( iraq general \) never recognised british created kuwait trying recover land believed , much like kuwaitis pushed little far taking iraqi oil saddam thought 'd settle dispute old fashioned way everybody would much better left reunited iraq together concentrated taking saddam strong , united iraq elected government would gone long way world feudal dictatorships gulf course weak divided arab people better suits us foriegn policy us problem killing tens thousands ill iraqi soldiers , including burying several thousand alive slaughtering retreating air defense kuwaiti oil , yet lift finger bosnian serbs slaughter bosnian muslims
sadek cbnewsg cb att com \( mohamed sadek \) subject please ! show washington dc bosnia \( may 15th \) organization lines 28 article minerva cis yale edu jovanovic nick yale edu \( nick jovanovic \) writes article venus haverford edu michael sells sells haverford edu writes find interesting mr major finds genocide two million muslims bosnia acceptable actually claiming 2 , 000 , 000 muslims killed b h \? \? \? remove one make genocide two hundred thousands muslims bosnia , would make better \? 2 , 000 , 000 muslims driven continue driven homes \? utterly ridiculous claim \? rapes \( 60 , 000 women \) concentration camps \? us delegation visited reported yesterday cnn serbs giving muslims 4 cup water day ! ! \? \? sure also sounds like utterly ridiculous claim ! please substantiate utterly ridiculous claim nick mohamed
perlman qso colorado edu \( eric perlman \) subject israel apartheid state nntp posting host qso colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 194 article cville srv wam umd edu aap wam umd edu \( alberto adolfo pinkas \) writes article 1993may11 colorado edu perlman qso colorado edu \( eric perlman \) writes far , presented opinions opposed mine would hardly take facts n't agree , hmm \? \? , fact opinion two different things expressing opinions , facts abstract , 're saying true facts happen agree , disagree completely could give hundreds words mother tongue \( spanish \) , use never find dictionary even , could show lot meanings words spanish different dictionary 're talking latter , former 're talking slang latter clearly never case , talking slang talking different uses language different places listen , pinkas i'm going count supposition think opinions something , way , better judgment based 've seen date agreed , n't , dictionaries reference books usage given language , particular meanings words phrases comprise language \? , using meanings completely different , indeed cases different , given dictionary reference book , dictionary contains meanings past \( much \) current use 's also updated often , saying things give different meanings dictionary , using non standard meanings every word , chance taken face value \? none one take way words mean something different 's quite clear response thread getting exactly happening ponder guess n't curious know many people define many different ways term jew , basis movement \? , probably question n't asked \? gee , hate people draw conclusions without information , n't \? hate people cannot read draw conclusion said curious , considering movement ask leading question english idiom , phrase guess way used loaded question , one answer expected also take offense told cannot read someone obviously trouble subject mr pinkas , phd candidate field one get phd candidacy one cannot read law return jewish nationality defined terms religion cultural identity , even 80 defined jews isreal religious time defined terms religion proven , law return defines jew someone jewish mother converted another religion pretty religious definition problem saying support zionism believe among people soviet communist party might even inspired noble ideals change final results happened ussr \? wishing compare ussr israel \? \? israel practice cruelty understand unable make abstractions cannot get idea text take everything literally bad thing know false would able make abstraction bore resemblance facts matter analogy utterly inapplicable would n't field i'm astrophysics could n't make abstractions speculate general grand scheme things also would n't education \( students give rather good reviews 'd add \) could n't draw analogies israel practicing cruelty , ask palestinians israeli prisons , tortured , whose houses blown army vast majority palestinians israeli prisons n't tortured , houses n't blown army fact , 've seen protesting measures net trying intimate agreement \? never said directly indirectly talking individuals defined zionists sure good , honest caring people talking results zionist movement words , taking , ignoring within , disagreement expressed freely , widely based bad read typing random \? know meanings words use expect reader read mind \? read fine thank n't need someone obviously troubles tongue n't native one telling read words native tongue spanish , 'd ask talking movement whose actions resulted law return religious definition jew , country defines nationality based religion 're talking movement exists today , 've trying tell please read arguments 've given ! still say reading need read talking something consider form racism based religious belief , arabs israel cannot serve army becasue born right religion arabs israel serve idf well know serve , true , allowed things israeli citizens happen jews yes , well know ok , fine know 're talking see point words could easily taken differently \? , second person singular , cannot understand text things explicitly said see , lot gall absolutely right lecture native speaker language , well educated , language n't native tongue 're obviously problems , difference citizenship nationality israel \? mean actually , n't \? mean exactly arab jewish citizens israel rights difference , keeping id 's \? better yet , going tell differences social life arabs jews \? social life one thing , legal status another , leading question , follows religious definition cultural one call form racism , jewish religion culture intimately , one judaism , one judaism believe true final question possible jewish muslim \? jewish christian \? response enlightening sad see model decorum tranquillity become like sport battleground rival ideologies slug glee tim rice , chess eric perlman perlman qso colorado edu center astrophysics space astronomy , university colorado , boulder
subject mufti \? meanwhile support genocide bosnians yaakov kayman yzkcu cunyvm bitnet organization city university new york university computer center supersedes cunyvm bitnet lines 40 article hal gnu ai mit edu , steel hal gnu ai mit edu \( nick steel \) says article cunyvm bitnet yaakov kayman yzkcu cunyvm bitnet writes condemn mufti nazi leanings , also condemning similarly genocidal killing innocents , muslim , herzegovina \? hatred bigotry remain , matter practices indeed , like ugly hatred spread kahane , right \? exempt condemnation , allowed hate \? , fool , like hatred one 's sworn enemies , enemies said time mean kill , , innocent men , women children , shown really mean late rabbi never hated anyone merely born par group , \( \) hate would kill anyone comes kill jews recall well rabbi kahane 's words iraqis demonstration want peace \? hand \( holding open hand \) ! n't want peace \? hand \( holding fist \) ! know 'll answer indirectly , n't bother bit keep indirectly \? wonder bother answering likes ! steel \( 's never pissed \) yaakov k \( yzkcu cunyvm cuny edu internet \)
hugo prime com \( david bernstein \) subject nobody knows name organization computervision lines 15 n't mean sound disrespectful , since majority contributors \( may even readers \) newsgroup seem muslims , christians jews , question could interest 's impression islam christianity pay great respect obscure 1st century jewish lad judea galilee chose particular jew among possible jews mystery \( personally , prefer woody allen stories much \) perhaps 's accident history anyway , seems may talking two different jews according new testament father 's name joseph , qur'an appears 's right name difference \? i'm really curious david
anwar mohammed cs cmu edu subject saudi clergy western supporters vs human rights organization carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 158 benali alcor nntp posting host po4 andrew cmu edu reply benali alcor ilyess sez would defended saudi arabia rolled back iraqi invasion , charge saudi arabia \? \? \? muslims knew whole thing set destroy iraq , liberate kuwait , people killed invasion \( many many \) , ones killed iraqis smaller invasion lived west , seen media prepared \( helpless naive americans \) war doubt plan exploiting helpless naive americans purposes hmm let 's see iraq even artificial conflict iraq kuwait led invasion , cia correctly predicted \( pretended surprised know \) happened saddam arrogant stupid would done muslims would choose 300 dead kuwaitis 200 , 000 dead iraqis 1000 dead kuwaitis first case would happen western intervention happened , second case direct indirect result western possibly , 200 , 000 iraqis indeed died , number based greenpeace estimates greenpeace compromised alleged war condemning potential environmental consequences allied action , initially completely ignoring iraq 's horrible environmental crimes , starting dumping millions barrels oil gulf ahmadi blowing 700 oil wells real number \? lot work last two years , none reported greenpeace figure seems get continuously bandied real number seems around 10 , 000 , order number kuwaitis killed , tortured occupation 've included article recently posted , really old news independent television news reported figure around 15 , 000 months war , hardly reported allies killed 200 , 000 iraqis , would kill twice total number iraqis kuwait favored image last battle war yet another example american european media playing hands iraq de facto allies destruction iraqi convoy portrayed slaughter simply true head tail convoy bombed initially , resulting lot casualties points bombers came back , rest iraqi soldiers fled foot furthermore , estimates kuwaiti war dead allies n't invaded completely ridiculous acknowledged \( certainly implicitly \) saddam barbarous brute acknowledged hundreds thousands killing country know man appointed governor kuwait , ali , brutal , near genocide kurds late 80 's , recently , yet , comes treatment kuwaitis , angel estimate , would 've killed fewer already war started joke ! 03 09 iraq war dead copyright , 1993 associated press rights reserved nick associated press writer washington \( ap \) persian gulf war ended , world told many 100 , 000 iraqi soldiers killed one point , even baghdad put toll high , u defense intelligence agency private u officials ever since , even though pentagon yet settle official estimate release public , one former dia analyst says number iraqi troops killed may low 1 , 500 conclusion john , writing current issue quarterly magazine foreign policy , represents lowest estimate yet u defense sources revisions suggesting less devastating iraqi toll fit pattern vastly moderated u military claims months war ended claims number u weapons also scaled despite dramatic videotapes successful weaponry shocking pictures iraq 's disastrous retreat kuwait , arguments continued really happened gulf war first question iraqi death toll numbers originally aired year ago , air force lt gen charles horner , commander air campaign gulf war , said believed iraqi military death toll fewer 10 , 000 entire war pentagon still refuses provide estimate number iraqis died 42 day war u led coalition january february 1991 monday , pentagon spokesman lt cmdr joe reiterated past statements n't number , credible current internal estimates range 8 , 000 25 , 000 iraqi troops killed , said one analyst , speaking condition anonymity , familiar pentagon 's reports allied deaths put 146 americans , 35 friendly fire 24 british , 9 american fire 2 , 1 italian 39 among various arab allies , widely publicized army 's reluctant acknowledgement , months later , touted patriot air defense system nowhere near effective claimed iraq 's scud missiles bush administration initially claimed almost perfect record patriot last spring revised hit ratio 60 percent success record navy 's tomahawk high tech cruise missile used targets baghdad parts iraq also turned modest initially indicated pentagon first iraqi casualty figures surface war came may 1991 report environmental group greenpeace , said 100 , 000 120 , 000 iraqi soldiers killed estimated 5 , 000 15 , 000 iraqi civilians also killed month , published reports said defense intelligence agency estimated 100 , 000 iraqi soldiers killed 300 , 000 wounded air ground campaigns although agency qualified saying estimate could much 50 percent either direction information became available , figures gradually revised downward house armed services committee staff estimated 9 , 000 dead 17 , 000 wounded review last year , writing current issue quarterly foreign policy , estimated total death toll air ground low 1 , 500 3 , 000 wounded based conclusion article number bodies found buried u troops 577 prisoner war interviews noted 2 , 000 69 , 000 iraqi prisoners war wounded based calculation half many wounded escaped captured , put number wounded 3 , 000 using conservative ratio one dead two wounded , applicable third world armies like iraq , set battlefield deaths 1 , 500 maybe figures low , wrote maybe real death toll battlefield 2 , 000 3 , 000 even 6 , 000 even , evidence suggests death toll well 100 , 000 even 10 , 000 interview , said 100 , 000 figure obviously base would mean virtually iraqi soldiers kuwait theater operations casualties said today 's wars fought high technology , rather drawn conflicts yugoslavia somalia
anwar mohammed cs cmu edu subject saudi clergy condemns debut human rights group ! organization carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 514 1993may16 cs wisc edu nntp posting host po2 andrew cmu edu reply 1993may16 cs wisc edu excerpts netnews talk politics mideast 16 may 93 saudi clergy condemns par \( \) whole saddam going invade saudi arabia nothing us state department propeganda saddam \( iraq general \) never recognised british created kuwait complete garbage kuwait faq number 1 \( maintained , compiled , rebut leftist drivel frequently posted wrt kuwait \) first note bogus arguments british drew maps deprive iraq oil follows chronology events kuwait 's history following chronology speech kuwaiti ambassador u n following article origins kuwait following series articles attest fact kuwait independent \( non existent \) iraq ottoman empire iraqi regime claims kuwait cut iraq british order deprive iraq oil 1913 1932 border treaties kuwait iraq represent clear testimonies allegation since oil discovered kuwait 1938 ! kuwait chronology bc 600 settled al hill area island 529 al bin al defeated al al kuwaiti area 300 greeks lived island two centuries 73 royal message stone view national museum kuwait ad 623 arabs defeated persians battle al area approximate date establishment kuwait town barrak amir tribe approximately al sabah family arrived kuwait approximate date election sabah bin jaber al sabah family first ruler kuwait 1760 first wall , 750 meters long , built around kuwait city abdulla bin sabah , second ruler kuwait , came power c , danish traveler , visited kuwait referred map '' kuwait attacked epidemic inhabitants died kuwaitis defeated tribe sea battle second wall kuwait , 2300 meters long , built al accident , many kuwaiti diving ships sunk , caused massive tidal wave india 1886 first kuwaiti currency minted copper reign sheikh abdulla al sabah ii 1899 kuwait signs treaty britain becomes \( see note \) 1911 december 22 al school , first formal school kuwait , opened 1920 third wall kuwait , 6400 meters long , built 1921 kuwait took first step toward democracy , formation council , last long 1922 total number kuwaiti pearl diving boats reached 800 , manned 10 , 000 divers 1922 first public library kuwait established 1926 historian abdul aziz al published first book kuwait 1928 kuwait 's first , magazine , '' published abdul aziz al 1930 kuwait municipality established 1930 decree issued prohibiting wearing soaring prices 1933 municipality installed lighting kuwait market 1934 december 7 heavy destroyed many kuwaiti houses therefore year called ``the destructive year , '' al '' 1938 february oil discovered 1938 first general elections , resulted first legislative council 1942 first bank kuwait opened 1945 ``kuwait established egypt look kuwaiti missions interests 1946 first kuwaiti crude oil shipment exported 1948 issued , first kuwaiti magazine printed published kuwait 1950 sheikh ahmed al jaber al sabah , ruled kuwait thirty years , died 1951 may 12 kuwait radio went air first time 1952 first ``kuwait drawn 1954 khalid al , man letters poet , died 1954 december , 11 ``kuwait al \( official gazette \) issued first time 1955 oil struck al , north kuwait 1957 kuwait wall demolished removed 1957 affairs conducted first population census 1958 december 1 first issue magazine published 1960 first kuwaiti woman employed kuwait oil company 1961 april 1 kuwaiti became official currency kuwait 1961 june 19 january 23 , 1899 , concluded kuwait great britain , terminated 1961 july 20 kuwait became member arab league 1961 december , 31 kuwait fund arab economic development established 1962 january 20 elected constituent assembly met draw constitution kuwait 1962 decree issued providing division country three 1962 november 11 amir kuwait , sheikh abdulla al salem al sabah ratified first constitution kuwait 1963 january first elected national assembly kuwait 1963 may 17 kuwait became member united nations organization 1963 august 7 great kuwaiti poet al died 1965 november 24 amir kuwait , sheikh abdulla al salem al sabah , passed away 1966 neutral zone partitioned kuwait saudi arabia 1966 november 27 kuwait university 1968 may 13 kuwait freed external obligations canceled agreement june 19 , 1961 1969 april 1 central bank kuwait established 1969 october 18 first communications satellite earth station kuwait 1973 july 6 kuwaiti pioneer sheikh bin eisa al died 1975 march government acquired full ownership kuwait oil company 1976 social security law , applicable kuwaiti nationals , issued 1976 future generations reserves law issued stipulates allocation 10 per state revenues future generations 1977 december 31 amir kuwait sheikh sabah al salem al sabah died 1981 may 25 kuwait signed articles association gulf cooperation council 1983 bridge , linking island mainland , opened traffic 1985 may 25 amir survived attempt life bomb laden car rammed arabian gulf street kuwait , facts figures , 1986 light september 29 1990 , national council us arab relations invited kuwaiti ambassador united states , saud nasser al sabah following quotes speech ``kuwait entity identified kuwait even iraq identified iraq ottoman empire kuwait existence since continued existence conflict ottoman empire british others area thereafter , signed british 1899 protective agreement whereby british guaranteed sovereignty security kuwait '' ``in 1913 , british ottoman signed agreement defining without doubt borders kuwait stand today agreement 1932 kuwaiti government iraqi government time iraq became state , kuwait '' ``in 1961 , declared independence iraq seized opportunity claim kuwait part iraq threats british came , arab forces came guarantee sovereignty territorial integrity kuwait 1963 , kuwait iraq signed border agreement , thereby defining territory iraq 's recognition sovereignty territory kuwait '' compiled origins kuwait establishment kuwait attributed barrak b khalid used kuwait summer residence beginning kuwait goes back late 17th century historians go kuwait 's name derived al means fortress kuwait also called , , horn hill kuwait town flourished grew since establishment , al sabah family branch , settled kuwait early 18th century lived protection khalid , became independent sabah bin jabir chosen first ruler carsten \( 1815 \) dutch explorer among first wrote arabia mathematician scientific expedition sent 1760 king denmark arabia documented details arab tribes gulf case kuwait , first writer give two names town known , kuwait 's chart persian gulf best one drawn end century , see map abu hakima , history eastern arabia 1750 1800 pub 1965 al sabah \( \) kept good relations powers eastern arabia according ahmed abu hakima 's conclusions well documented study history eastern arabia 1750 1800 , ottoman rule region ``in second half 18th century , ottoman ruler eastern arabia fact , ottoman rule even nominally acknowledged attempts restore lost position al campaign 1786 , ali pasha 's expedition , unsuccessful kuwait , nearest point domains ottoman basra , form ottoman control aim external policy keep friendly relations forces working gulf '' \( p 182 183 \) abu hakima continued conclusions ``kuwait dependency basra , persian occupation basra \( 79 \) affect kuwait '' \( p 183 \) kuwait identity ottoman domination arab world identity clear british french tried win support kuwait 's sheikh 95 british wanted support conflict french gulf area independent kuwait first series articles testify independence kuwait throughout history iraq ottomans following text related expedition carried ottomans eastern arabia \( oil fields saudi arabia \) kuwait ruler time , sheikh abdulla ibn sabah ibn jabir , allied turks role fighting minor one joined expedition commander large kuwaiti fleet first use guns besieged town al qatif bombardment kuwaiti fleet , al qatif obviously would surrendered mere three hours relation , question arises ottoman warships refrained participating bombardment answer lies reports relating political movements preceded accounts progress expedition ottomans unwilling jeopardize peace imposed britain area , sultan pasha promised warships would used war sheikh war zone kuwait , party mentioned treaty 1861 , obligation especially since expedition directed signed text , see kuwait part ottomans british colonies details mentioned expedition , please check source text modern history kuwait , 1750 1965 , ahmed abu hakima , mcgill university , canada independent kuwait 2 another article series articles testify independence kuwait throughout history iraq ottomans following text discusses dispute estate called zubair , iraq , sheikh kuwait al tribe zubair , trouble developed possession sheikh sabah estate purchased father , sheikh jabir , property turkish representative basis claim al vendor owner share n time , sheikh sabah required expel lands owned island persian territory recalled turkish officials start showed strong prejudice favor claimants abdulla ibn sabah , son ruler kuwait went basra father 's agent case , narrowly escaped thrown jail upon refusal make payment value seven years produce ottoman authorities deemed plaintiffs entitled receive eventually , dispute settled governor baghdad favor sheikh kuwait decision governor basra favor sheikh apparently made various reasons writers think governor wanted win abdulla turkish side , suggest governor , pasha , even offered title , declined nevertheless , proceedings turks case regarded inhabitants kuwait attempts cause confrontation zubair seems anticipated conflict according reports british agent basra , people kuwait prepared man abandon town rather submit turkish rule suggests final order pasha , upholding kuwait sheikh 's title , perhaps due report sheikh sabah , object attacking zubair decision go , obtained promise countenance armed support amir '' addition legal matter zubair , kuwait problems basra whose courts tried jail abdulla ibn sabah , explained however , kuwait 's relations ottoman basra times several instances , even sought refuge kuwait pressured baghdad exercised control source modern history kuwait , 1750 1965 , ahmed abu hakima , mcgill university , canada independent kuwait 3 another article testifies independence kuwait throughout history iraq ottomans pelly colonel pelly , british resident gulf visited kuwait first time march 3 , , met sheikh mubarak , second son ruler , sheikh sabah reached kuwait town march 4 , met sheikh abdulla , son heir apparent , accompanied town gate way good home , '' prepared pelly companions entered , '' says pelly , ``when sheikh sabah came '' description pelly 's reception indicates certain degree run according protocol government system kuwait administration justice subject comments made pelly ``the government , '' says pelly , ``the sheikh managing political , judicial departments sheikh would submit 's decision '' punishment rarely inflicted , seems little government interference anywhere , little need army '' pelly admiration sheikh ran affairs country , following remark sheikh made father nearly 120 years old , called said , ``i shall soon die made fortune , leave money , made many true friends , grapple states around gulf fallen injustice ill government , mine gone flourishing hold policy , though surrounded desert , pressed hostile still wandering set tribes , '' source modern history kuwait , 1750 1965 , ahmed abu hakima , mcgill university , canada independent kuwait 4 another article testifies independence kuwait throughout history iraq ottomans british always regarded sheikh jabir friend , '' october 1839 , event took place kuwait could weakened good relations october 30 , lieutenant , assistant resident abu iran , arrived kuwait special mission resident , captain mission find kuwait willing welcome establishment british line post across desert kuwait mediterranean british war vessel fired usual salute honor sheikh anchored waters kuwait bay salute acknowledged waited vessel three days able communicate sheikh return abu , captain explained unusual behavior sheikh , due ill , principally desire mislead egyptian agent kuwait nature relations british therefore , considered jabir 's conduct indicate change friendly policies towards british british tolerated attitude jabir towards , also egyptians earlier year , wanted men camp , ibn , general al , tribes like al , sought refuge kuwait protection refugees seeking political asylum country policy adopted earlier sheikh abdulla ibn sabah , therefore , looked upon indication self confidence outcome kuwait 's independence foreign powers fact kuwait , necessary , prepared defend powerful neighbors defense depended walls city , also bedouin tribes neighborhood merchant fleet equipped necessary guns comparable arab fleets time kuwait 's position 1815 1839 , one safely state managed maintain neutral policy regard struggling egyptians relations british even pasha baghdad continued good terms source modern history kuwait , 1750 1965 , ahmed abu hakima , mcgill university , canada trying recover land believed , much like kuwaitis pushed little far taking iraqi oil saddam thought 'd settle dispute old fashioned way really \? seriously believe \? , please post proof everybody would much better left reunited iraq together concentrated taking saddam strong , united iraq elected government would gone long way world feudal dictatorships gulf standards dropping \? since iraq ever elected government \?
jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) subject jews shoot muslim infants organization department redundancy department lines 23 article 1993may19 midway uchicago edu clmn midway uchicago edu writes article bony1 bony com jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) writes seem missed point states middle east north africa seem constant border territorial disputes , mention boiling hatred removal israel going change picture much love israel , think 's true arab jewish conflict palestine , almost 100 years old , primary cause instability middle east please explain removal israel going ease situation iran , iran iraq , iraq , iraq kuwait , syria , lebanon , libya , algeria , egypt , sudan human rights , freedom press religion , slavery , government oppression authoritarian societies going solved removing israel middle east \? jake livni jake bony1 bony com ten years , george bush american occupied new york replaced jimmy carter opinions employer opinions standard failed president
jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) subject jews shoot muslim infants organization department redundancy department lines 27 article cbfsb cb att com sadek cbnewsg cb att com \( mohamed sadek \) writes allow mention indeed indeed defend oneself , fight brutal occupation , restore freedom oneself , one 's people islam also teachings right minded individuals honorable placing bombs passenger airliners , promising execute rushdie , killing 1 2 million people iran iraq war , murdering tourists persecuting christians egypt , massacring christians sudan , christians barring jews saudi arabia \? paranoid muslims righteous defending situations \? even afraid \? always amazing yet true suffer religious persecution usually ones practice able islam filling net foam considering seem posting central new jersey , odd comment coming dare speak mind middle east country besides israel jake livni jake bony1 bony com ten years , george bush american occupied new york replaced jimmy carter opinions employer opinions standard failed president
jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) subject jews shoot muslim infants organization department redundancy department lines 37 article 1993may19 midway uchicago edu clmn midway uchicago edu writes article mcd bony1 bony com jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) writes palestine name given area jews already governments long time palestinean nationality recent political invention , decades old jew jake says ! may true think jews dismiss palestinian nationalism peril newness n't reality besides , israeli nationalism new well israeli nationalism \( also known zionism \) nationalism jewish people jewish people new phenomenon palestinean nationalism nationalism arab people arabs around long time already 2 dozen states , large small , covering 98 middle east specifically , palestinean nationalism nationalism arabs region palestine , egyptian nationalism nationalism arabs region egypt one palestinean state already exists known palestine called jordan justification carving second tiny palestinean state jewish state , , small , justification carving another american state mexico jake livni jake bony1 bony com ten years , george bush american occupied new york replaced jimmy carter opinions employer opinions standard failed president
ohayon jcpltyo jcpl co jp \( tsiel ohayon \) subject palestine organization james capel pacific limited , tokyo japan lines 20 article ysub ysu edu ysub ysu edu writes r2d2 benjamin , zionist friend r2d2 amazing still pigs like left planet r2d2 occupied palestine become prison inhabitants , thanks r2d2 , zionist network around world , call r2d2 chosen people god r2d2 god , long breath left , r2d2 fight freedom benjamin , n't rest easily thanks writing name identifying , coward right hide behind blind rhetoric , beware jle mossad agent wil come get tsiel 8 8 tsiel ohayon jcpl co jp message self destruct 5 seconds employer may \( \) opinions , !
center policy research cpr igc apc org subject arab h r assoc , nazareth nf id n cdp 000 1980 nf cdp uucp ! cpr may 24 13 13 00 1993 lines 57 center policy research cpr subject arab h r assoc , nazareth arab association human rights p box 215 nazareth , israel phone \( 972 \) 6 fax \( 972 \) 6 arab association human rights \( \) formed 1988 address discriminatory practices human rights abuses israel palestinian citizens unique association concerned civil , political , economic , social cultural rights palestinian national minority israel among issues concern land confiscation , education , prison conditions , unemployment , torture unequal allocation israel 's resources today around 800 , 000 palestinian arabs living within green line \( pre 1967 borders israel \) , 18 israel 's citizens empty citizenship system geared exclusively needs jewish population legally practically , israel proclaimed jewish state early promises equality non jewish citizens fulfilled apparent many areas strongly affecting palestinian national minority arab agricultural land confiscated since 1948 arab sector vastly receive fair share state resources day day level , palestinians face discrimination many different forms find struggle get permission build house , start business , find job educate children activities monitoring civil , economic , cultural human rights abuses palestinians within green line taking carefully selected test cases court providing legal advice assistance lawyers occupied territories educating palestinian public rights methods conducting public campaigns local international levels researching publishing pertinent publications
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject coward jews organization zuma distribution world lines 42 article usenet ins cwru edu aa824 cleveland freenet edu \( mark ira kaufman \) writes arab armies attack israel yom kippur \? suppose brave slaughter athletes olympics \? maybe armenians long , long time source hagopian said part 1972 terror attack munich olympic games , armenian reporter , february 7 , 1985 , p 1 le , influential paris daily , based unidentified sources , claimed last week hagopian , founder leader one faction armenian secret army liberation armenia \( asala \) , among arab terrorists staged attack living quarters israeli athletes 1972 olympic games le added 1982 , hagopian operated beirut , lebanon , escaped country israeli forces entered city time statement issued asala claimed mr hagopian dead wounds suffered bombing israeli air force , although generally believed mysterious leader alive well presently residing alternately damascus , syria , athens , greece paper also noted socialist government prime minister andreas p k party accepted armenian underground leader open arms still providing assistance simply greece 's traditional enmity turkey le adds asala derives small portion expenditures wealthy armenians support cause , rest coming either sources proceeds involvement drug trafficking serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject pre american population levels organization zuma distribution world lines 260 article ipp garching mpg de bds uts ipp garching mpg de \( bruce scott \) writes gave good reference \( please , author plymouth \? \) could given travel accounts radiating someone incapable providing single scholarly source apology , rather amusing , non existent list scholars scholarly sources \? mine appropriate analogy jewish holocaust might systematic extermination entire muslim population independent republic armenia consisted least 30 40 percent population republic memoirs armenian army officer participated eye witnessed atrocities published u 1926 title 'men like ' references abound \( rachel bortnick jewish times june 21 , 1990 \) soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul power tear away veil illusion us create certainly possible severe artificial life support system imagined 'ethnic purity' us falsely trust structure support heart beats alien land \( sahak melkonian 1920 preserving armenian purity \) crime systematic cleansing mass killing extermination muslim population soviet republic armenia , karabag , bosnia herzegovina comparable extermination 2 5 million muslims armenian government wwi 6 million european jews wwii \( azeri leader september 25 , 1992 \) today 's ethnic cleansing policies serbian dictatorship muslims yugoslavia , well soviet republic armenia 's muslim population neighboring azerbaijan , really different aspirations genocide perpetrated armenian government 78 years ago turkish kurdish muslims sephardic jews living lands \( kurdish leader october 13 , 1992 \) references eminent authors field middle eastern history eyewitnesses armenian genocide 2 5 million muslims 1 armenian revolutionary movement louise nalbandian , university california press , berkeley , los angeles , 1975 2 diplomacy imperialism 1890 1902 william lenger , professor history , harward university , boston , alfred knopt , new york , 1951 3 turkey europe sir charles elliot , edward arnold , london , 1900 4 chatnam house version middle eastern studies elie kedouri , praeger publishers , new york , washington , 1972 5 rising crescent ernest jackh , farrar reinhart , inc , new york toronto , 1944 6 spiritual political evolutions islam felix valyi , mogan , paul , trench truebner co , london , 1925 7 struggle power moslem asia e alexander powell , century co , new york , london , 1924 8 struggle transcaucasia feruz kazemzadeh , yale university press , new , conn , 1951 9 history ottoman empire modern turkey \( 2 volumes \) stanford j shaw , cambridge university press , cambridge , new york , melbourne , 1977 10 western question greece turkey arnold j toynbee , constable co , ltd , london , bombay sydney , 1922 11 caliph 's last heritage sir mark sykes , macmillan co , london , 1915 12 men like leonard hartill , bobbs co , indianapolis , 1928 13 adventures near east , 1918 22 rawlinson , dodd , meade co , 1925 14 world alive , personal story robert dunn , crown publishers , inc , new york , 1952 15 sardarapat serves lousanne avetis aharonian , armenian review magazine , volume 15 \( fall 1962 \) 17 \( spring 1964 \) 16 armenia road independence richard g hovanessian , university california press , berkeley , california , 1967 17 rebirth turkey clair price , thomas seltzer , new york , 1923 18 caucasian battlefields w b allen paul muratoff , cambridge , 1953 19 partition turkey harry n howard , h fertig , new york , 1966 20 king crane commission harry n howard , beirut , 1963 21 united states policy partition turkey laurence evans , john hopkins university press , baltimore , 1965 22 british documents related turkish war independence gothard jaeschke 1 neside kerem demir , bir sehid anasina tarihin soyledikleri turkiye'nin ermeni meselesi , hulbe basim yayin , ankara , 1982 \( ingilizce birinci baski 1980 , armenian question turkey \) 2 veysel eroglu , ermeni mezalimi , sebil yayinevi , istanbul , 1978 3 alper gazigiray , osmanlilardan gunumuze kadar vesikalarla ermeni teroru'nun kaynaklari , gozen kitabevi , istanbul , 1982 4 dr kirzioglu fahrettin , kars ili cevresinde ermeni mezalimi , kardes matbaasi , ankara , 1970 c basbakanlik osmanli arsivi , babiali , istanbul \) yildiz esas evraki b \) yildiz perakende c \) irade defterleri \) cemaat gayr muslime defterleri e \) meclisi vukela mazbatalari f \) dahiliye nezareti , kalem mahsus dosyalari g \) dahiliye nezareti , sifre defterleri h \) babiali evrak odasi siyasi kartonlar \) babiali evrak odasi muhimme kartonlari c disisleri bakanligi , hazine evrak , defterdarlik \) harb umumi b \) muteferrik kartonlar british archives \) parliamentary papers \( hansard \) commons lords b \) foreign office confidential print various collections c \) foreign office 424 239 253 turkey correspondence annual reports \) foreign office 608 e \) foreign office 371 , political intelligence general correspondence f \) foreign office 800 240 , ryan papers g \) foreign office 800 151 , curzon papers h \) foreign office 839 eastern conference lausanne 53 files india office records library , blackfriars road , london \) l political security 10 851 855 \( five boxes \) , turkey treaty peace 1918 1923 b \) l p 10 1031 , near east turkey greece lausanne conference , 1921 1923 c \) l p 11 154 \) l p 11 1031 french archives archives du ministere des affaires entrangeres , quai d'orsay , paris \) documents diplomatiques affaires armeniens 1895 1914 collections b \) guerre 1914 1918 turquie legion d'orient c \) levant , 1918 1929 armenie official publications , published documents , diplomatic correspondence , agreements , minutes others turkey \( ottoman empire republic turkey \) akarli , e \( ed \) belgelerle tanzimat , \( istanbul , 1978 \) \( gn kur , atase \) askeri tarih belgeleri dergisi , v xxxi \( 81 \) , \( dec 1982 \) askeri tarih belgeleri dergisi , v xxxii \( 83 \) , \( dec 1983 \) hocaoglu , \( ed \) ittihad anasir osmaniye heyeti nizamnamesi , \( istanbul , 1912 \) meray , l \( trans ed \) lozan baris konferansi tutanaklar belgeler , \( ankara , 1978 \) , 2 vols meray , l olcay \( ed \) osmanli imparatorlugu'nun cokus belgeleri mondros birakismasi , sevr andlasmasi , ilgili belgeler , \( ankara , 1977 \) \( osmanli devleti , dahiliye nezareti \) aspirations et agissements revolutionnaires des comites armeniens avant et apres la proclamation de la constitution ottomane , \( istanbul , 1917 \) ermeni komitelerinin amal hareket ihtilaliyesi ilan mesrutiyetten evvel sonra , \( istanbul , 1916 \) idare umumiye vilayet kanunu , \( istanbul , 1913 \) muharrerat umumiye mecmuasi , v \( istanbul , 1914 \) muharrerat umumiye mecmuasi , v ii \( istanbul , 1915 \) muharrerat umumiye mecmuasi , v iii \( istanbul , 1916 \) muharrerat umumiye mecmuasi , v iv \( istanbul , 1917 \) \( osmanli devleti , hariciye nezareti \) imtiyazat ecnebiyye'nin lagvindan dolayi memurine teblig olunacak talimatname , \( istanbul , 1915 \) \( osmanli devleti , harbiye nezareti \) islam ahalinin ducar olduklari mezalim hakkinda vesaike mustenid malumat , \( istanbul , 1919 \) \( iv ordu \) aliye divan harbi orfisinde tedkik olunan mesele yi siyasiye hakkinda izahat , \( istanbul , 1916 \) turkozu , h k \( ed \) osmanli sovyet belgeleriyle ermeni mezalimi , \( ankara , 1982 \) turkiye buyuk millet meclisi gizli celse zabitlari , \( ankara , 1985 \) , 4 vols russia adamof , e e \( ed \) sovyet devlet arsivi belgeleriyle anadolu'nun taksimi plani , \( tran h rahmi , ed h mutlucag \) , \( istanbul , 1972 \) altinay , r iki komite iki kital , \( istanbul , 1919 \) kafkas yollarinda hatiralar tahassusler , \( istanbul , 1919 \) turkiye 'de katolik propagandasi , turk tarihi encumeni mecmuasi , v xiv 82 5 \( sept 1924 \) asaf muammer harb mesulleri , \( istanbul , 1918 \) akboy , c birinci dunya harbinde turk harbi , v osmanli imparatorlugu'nun siyasi askeri hazirliklari harbe girisi , \( gn kur , ankara , 1970 \) akgun , general harbord'un anadolu gezisi \( ermeni meselesi'ne dair \) raporu kurtulus savasi baslangicinda , \( istanbul , 1981 \) akin , turk devrim tarihi , \( istanbul , 1983 \) aksin , jon turkler ittihad terakki , \( istanbul , 1976 \) basar , z \( ed \) ermenilerden gorduklerimiz , \( ankara , 1974 \) ermeniler hakkinda makaleler derlemeler , \( ankara , 1978 \) belen , f birinci dunya harbinde turk harbi , \( ankara , 1964 \) deliorman , turklere karsi ermeni komitecileri , \( istanbul , 1980 \) ege , n n \( ed \) prens sabahaddin hayati ilmi mudafaalari , \( istanbul , 1977 \) ercikan , ermenilerin bizans osmanli imparatorluklarindaki rolleri , \( ankara , 1949 \) gurun , k 'ermeni sorunu yahut bir sorun nasil yaratilir \? ' , turk tarihinde ermeniler sempozyumu , \( izmir , 1983 \) hocaoglu , arsiv vesikalariyla tarihte ermeni mezalimi ermeniler , \( istanbul , 1976 \) karal , e osmanli tarihi , v v \( 1983 , 4th ed \) v vi \( 1976 , 2nd ed \) v vii \( 1977 , 2nd ed \) v viii \( 1983 , 2nd ed \) ankara kurat , osmanli imparatorlugu'nun paylasilmasi , \( ankara , 1976 \) orel , yuca ermenilerce talat pasa'ya atfedilen telgraflarin icyuzu , \( ankara , 1983 \) also english translation ahmad , f young turks committee union progress turkish politics , \( oxford , 1969 \) serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject die zeit massacre turkish cypriots organization zuma distribution world lines 83 article jtsilla ccs northeastern edu jtsilla ccs northeastern edu \( james tsillas \) writes got e mail topic decided reading thought would nice share response everyone following scholarly source \? source pierre , road turkish cypriot exodus northern cyprus , social science , boulder , 1982 , isbn 000 7 well , according book c 've read looks like situation much complicated either us suggest needless say nationalism greek turkish side strong began april '74 agean \( usual \) government turkey ioannidis junta july 15 assasination attempt makarios \( president cyprus \) plotted ioannidis , ruling dictator greece , fails makarios england journalist sampson takes coup led greek officers cyprus national guard turkish forces anticipation begin landing north shore island 20th july caused welcomed collapse dictatorship 24th mr returning well , forced disagree greeks started massacring turkish population cyprus 1974 1974 , turkiye stepped cyprus preserve lives turkish population nothing simple historical fact unfortunately , intervention late least victims mass graves containing numerous bodies women children already showed fate planned peaceful minority people turkiye know quite well greece greek cypriots never abandon idea hellenizing cyprus remain eternally hopeful greece , someday , whatever cost parties involved history speaks greece sole perpetrator invasion island sent troops july 15 , 1974 attempt legitimate government makarios release nikos sampson , member eoka national organization cypriot fighters convicted terrorist , shows mentality continues survive greece one forget sampson dedicated life turks cyprus , committed murder achieve goal , tried destroy island 's independence annexing greece course , greek governments bear consequences irresponsible conduct turkish cypriots simply seeking guarantees preclude repeat performance fanatical eoka assurances perfectly implemented , every reason expect local greeks misguided enough past mistakes occasion , turkish side may find satisfactory act reluctance go , unacceptable remain always defensive cyclical vicious attacks therefore would better true federation two separate sections living obligatory peace , rather another armed confrontation would started greeks decisively terminated turks present greek government trying turkish population western thrace forbidding ethnic religious rights , established international treaties one might better advised remember turkiye serve greece well offer membership european common market bait concessions may doom turks cyprus extinction viable course greece friends neither turkish lives turkish honor placed bidding block sold commercial gain serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject news azerbaijan 5 19 22 organization zuma distribution world lines 500 article mem odu edu farid mem odu edu \( f h \) writes following news turan news agency baku azerbaijan brought service azerbaijan association p box 14571 berkeley , ca fax \( 804 \) 490 3832 email farid mem odu edu p l e e make hard copy news available azerbaijani near ! h e l n e new vice premier plans intensify work attraction western investments proposal summon special session supreme soviet rejected prospects trade economic cooperation azerbaijan estonia azerbaijan intend join cis common economic zone questions granting credit azerbaijan discussed moscow azerbaijan reply second variant trilateral initiative 26 may announcement prosecutor republic azerbaijan parliament intends appeal russian parliament regarding six accused soldiers armenians preparing north caucasus state assistance national minority development memorandum cooperation extracting oil gas fields azerbaijan signed armenia taking advantage prosecution six russian soldiers new armed forces armenia unocal company build 50 houses refugees azerbaijan manat beginning fall value discussion parliamentary election bill last till mid july isa gambar suggests azeri russian parliament commission circumstances criminal case created trilateral initiative ruined \? fate 645 million tons oil decided summer scientists lawyers russia appealed president azerbaijan armenian artillery continues firing azeri districts azeri prime minister leaving great britain new vice premier plans intensify work attraction western investments baku \( may 19 \) turan yesterday , , recently appointed vice premier republic , received us ambassador azerbaijan , richard miles azerbaijan newspaper informs , issue attraction western investments azerbaijan discussed meeting particular , stated western capital investigated profitable spheres manufacture also noticed , number priority manufactures released debts also said activities american oil companies promote strengthening american azeri relations proposal summon special session supreme soviet rejected baku \( may 19 \) turan yesterday , sitting milli mejlis , chairman , isa gambar , rejected proposal deputy summon special session supreme soviet azerbaijan written proposal summon session signed 130 deputates chairman said signatures invalid proposal could n't submitted discussion earlier , leadership milli mejlis called proposal summon special session supreme soviet coup attempt deputy parliament , , n't consider deputates objective removing milli mejlis chairman power concerns serious analysis social , economic foreign policy activity republic 's authority said deputates parliament , ejected duties one year ago rights express opinion questions supreme soviet azerbaijan \( 340 deputates \) dissolved one year ago , attempted bring back power functions handed milli mejlis , consisting 50 deputates \( 25 democrats 25 \) time democrats came agreement milli mejlis would n't exist long time would dissolved parliamentary elections time , deputates ejected duties guaranteed could summon session supreme soviet time went political activity parliament 0 prospects trade economic cooperation azerbaijan estonia baku \( may 19 \) turan prospects signing trade economic agreement azerbaijan estonia discussed meeting foreign minister group experts ministry economics , minister foreign affairs bank administration may 18 group experts headed , chief ministry economics estonia mia azerbaijan informed turan agency , stay baku , delegation also visit ministry economics national bank republic 0 azerbaijan intend join cis common economic zone baku \( may 19 \) turan deputy prime ministers republic , declared azerbaijan would n't join cis common economic zone considers cis economic zone proposal create common tax system contradicts independent economic policy republic according , pact cooperation proposals , submitted discussion leaders cis states moscow may 14 , number unfavorable points azerbaijan announcements two deputy prime ministers sound sensational background fact president azerbaijan chairman parliament noted necessity republic joining cis economic zone 0 questions granting credit azerbaijan discussed moscow baku \( may 19 \) turan today , azerbaijani delegation headed director foreign relation department ministry finance republic along representatives national bank leave moscow hold consultation russian government granting credit azerbaijan according preliminary information , credit 50 billion rubles press centre ministry finance informed turan 's correspondent , precise amount credit , conditions repay number questions mutual interest discussed course meeting moscow known credit mostly used mutual settling industrial enterprises azerbaijan russia sides reach agreement , proposed signing end may 0 azerbaijan reply second variant trilateral initiative 26 may baku \( may 19 \) turan measures peace presented russia , turkey usa azerbaijan armenia , representative president azerbaijan talks nagorno karabakh , noted plan seriously changed comparison first variant comments several points added schedule insistence armenian side intend come back analysis schedule , given positive answer may 6 , said representative president azerbaijan informed began work examination commentary , answer would given requested authors trilateral initiative may 26 known , first variant peace measures rejected armenia , put forward number pre conditions acceptance 0 announcement prosecutor republic azerbaijan baku \( may 20 \) turan azerbaijani prosecutor 's office announced russian mass media 's attempt portray 6 russian soldiers condemned military board azerbaijani supreme court , innocent people unjustified accounts witnesses confessions condemned , prove crimes committed together armenian military units knowledge headquarters russian army unit , served announcement points attempts represent soldiers ordinary mercenaries nothing russian army also unfounded evidences soldiers list one military unit 's russian yerevan certain russian circles try conceal fact direct participation russian army undeclared war armenia azerbaijan russian community azerbaijan 's prosecutor 's announcement follows , type actions make situation region much complicated 0 parliament intends appeal russian parliament regarding six accused soldiers baku \( may 20 \) turan turan agency informed , parliament azerbaijan considering question appealing russian parliament six accused soldiers' fortune particular , offer send representatives commission military affairs armed forces russian federation baku detailed study results six russian soldiers' case directed russian parliament according one supporters offer , initiative give russian parliament possibility convinced correctness investigation also chance discuss reasons given rise present situation russian troops participation war azerbaijan armenians preparing north caucasus baku \( may 20 \) turan national liberation front founded group armenians living north caucasus appealed establish armenian territories , stavropol regions , reported newspaper march 9 , 1993 published geneva north caucasus regarded integral part armenia documents organization admitting non reunion north caucasus armenia proper present , front appealing un , presidents russia , armenia united states consider need establish armenian caucasus attain goals , armenian organization considers necessary carry north caucasus forms methods activity identical nagorno karabakh besides decision fund cells armenian national liberation fronts every settlement appeal leaders armenian terrorist groups greece iran sent north caucasus instructors training armenian youth wage secret wars adopted thus according newspaper , new planning north caucasus state assistance national minority development baku \( may 20 \) turan meeting headed state secretary azerbaijan , ali , participation national cultural centers held baku first results realization president elchibey 's decree state assistance development language culture national minorities adopted september 16 , 1992 considered state secretary called decree important step establish legal democratic state confirmed commitment leadership azerbaijan set democratic society rights nationalities ethnic groups would respected state president azerbaijan national policy , , announced spite difficulties undeclared war republic , leaders state managed solve many problems concerning satisfaction cultural needs ethnic groups today , 33 national cultural centers registered ministry justice capital azerbaijan provided accommodation , furniture means communication accommodations rent free \( 8 foreign diplomatic missions baku placed hotels absence free accommodations including representation un general secretary \) noted , great work carried since decree adopted create conditions total development ethnic groups north azerbaijan lezghins live , national theater opened , transmitted work creation educational literature , , lezghins kurds national teaching scientific staff carried academy sciences azerbaijan memorandum cooperation extracting oil gas fields azerbaijan signed baku \( may 20 \) turan turan agency informed state concern , memorandum understanding companies amoco caspian sea petroleum , bi pi exploration operating , caspian , unocal ltd , turkish oil corporation mutual extracting fields azeri , signed according memorandum , general group preparing common program activity created according president , bagirov , cooperation provide using experience foreign companies efficiently project , main principles effective use oil gas resources , rational sharing investments , reducing exploitation expenditures maximizing profit azerbaijan exploitation fields memorandum also necessity take account historical political economical interests azerbaijan optimum use oil gas fields armenia taking advantage prosecution six russian soldiers baku \( may 21 \) turan azerbaijani court passed sentence six russian soldiers fighting armenian side karabakh , armenian propaganda become actively involved armenians living russia appealed president yeltsin request display asserting rights russian soldiers time , armenian mass media call legal proceedings case baku farce aimed getting arms russia karabakh armenians issued threat recently one could believe yerevan agency snark , armenians karabakh presented ultimatum authorities azerbaijan essence ultimatum russian soldiers shown mercy , three azeri prisoners karabakh shot dead simple explain touching attitude armenians six russian soldiers' fate chance sentence executed cause anti azeri anti armenian reaction , accused russian soldiers recruited yerevan former defence minister armenia transferred karabakh soldiers get mercy , armenian side think highly saving lives innocent russians new armed forces armenia baku \( may 21 \) turan according defence ministry azerbaijan may 20 21 , firing territories azerbaijan military bases territory armenia progress day , villages , , district azerbaijan fire kafan district armenia two inhabitants wounded , villages may 20 , firing villages , , , district azerbaijan positions armenian armed forces progress day diversion group armed forces armenia \( 50 60 men \) violated frontier azerbaijan , penetrated territory district azerbaijan , killed two shepherds village made attempt take flock across frontier azeri frontier guards stopped enemy unocal company build 50 houses refugees azerbaijan baku \( may 21 \) turan turan agency informed representation unocal american oil company , leaders company decided give 750 thousand dollars construction 50 houses refugees present , american side suggested village project consideration appropriate departments azerbaijan project farm village house personal lot , subsidiary accommodations according program construction putting operation village year manat beginning fall value baku \( may 21 \) turan lately , black market baku , national currency manat , fell price compared russian ruble thus one gives 1100 rubles 120 one us dollar taking account official exchange value manat respect ruble 1 10 , national currency fell value 10 percent meanwhile exchange value manat ruble banks , state establishments trade according representatives business circles experts , present situation explained fact rubles bought local businessmen need rubles financial operations russia payments republics former ussr russia great problem , many businessmen arrange deals cash taking consideration volume business russia , counted billions , hard imagine much rubles cash businessmen need discussion parliamentary election bill last till mid july baku \( may 22 \) turan according president 's decree , expert group , including representatives parliament presidential apparatus , working new wording constitution republic azerbaijan must adopted milli mejlis parliamentary elections together , work new constitution , would , evidently , adopted new parliament country , going informed work press conference supreme soviet republic day parliamentary legal experts , , representatives department president 's apparatus took part press conference national discussion project parliamentary election law going present according bill n't cause objections noted , , alternative variant election law put forward also informed , parliamentary examine coming proposals till june 10 june 15 proposals generalized submitted discussion milli mejlis 0 isa gambar suggests azeri russian parliament commission circumstances criminal case created baku \( may 22 \) turan chairman mejlis azerbaijan republic , isa gambar , sent return letter chairman russian supreme soviet connection conviction russian servicemen lieutenant v , k , military college supreme court azerbaijan letter , isa gambar suggested commission azerbaijan mejlis deputates par experts russian supreme soviet established clarify circumstances criminal case view , conclusion commission could help objective solving problem , well kind problems future main thing , could help promote knowledge involvement russian servicemen crime turn , connection russian parliament message , mejlis adopted resolution may 19 , according permanent government building legal policy , human rights international relations charged exploration problem 0 trilateral initiative ruined \? baku \( may 22 \) turan turan agency informed , russian representative talks karabakh , vladimir , doubted realization trilateral initiative expressed opinion telephone talk representatives azerbaijan talk declared , case peace process , russia would pursue yeltsin 's initiative statement russian diplomat , one authors trilateral initiative , suggests russian leadership paving way complete exclusion usa probably turkey process statement also mean , russia us achieved understanding bosnian problem , agreed partial us departure transcaucasia 0 fate 645 million tons oil decided summer baku \( may 22 \) turan president azerbaijan state oil company , bagirov , declared recently complete treaty development oil fields , azeri would signed summer known , western oil companies amoco , bp , interest development three richest caspian fields according plan , bp sign complete treaty development field june 16 later amoco sign treaties specialists value total reserves three fields 645 million ton 310 million fall azeri field , 180 ton 150 ton exploitation fields last tens years bring azerbaijan 100 billion dollars revenue addition net economic profit , baku upon political support west defence interests international scene president elchibey said closest may 1993 one difficult periods azerbaijan independence stand tests 0 scientist lawyers russia appealed president azerbaijan baku \( may 22 \) turan press service president azerbaijan informs , today , appeal institute government law russian academy sciences president elchibey received appeal contains call display mercy , humanism death sentences former servicemen russian armed forces authors appeal point , n't justify participation russian servicemen war azeri people , n't call question passed sentence , denounce mercenary according un principals , sorry russian servicemen drawn grave crime end letter , scientists , mentioning soldiers' tears grief , praying day night safety , ask president azerbaijan save guys noticed , unlike lawyers , soldiers' mothers , taking part inquiry , called cause grief russian policy according words , leaders , lay lives russian men achieve political aims , must made answerable unfortunately , appeal n't mention grief mothers azerbaijani soldiers , killed sentenced russian servicemen 0 armenian artillery continues firing azeri districts baku \( may 22 \) turan may 22 , two soldiers national army azerbaijan killed grad shelling villages , , , district republic territory kafan district armenia night morning may 22 , villages , districts azerbaijan fire territory armenia situation district azerbaijan became complicated may 21 , enemy fired regional centre village transportation man power military equipment district progress according reports enemy setting new weapon fire regional centre near villages according ministry internal affairs , concentration man power military equipment observed district armenia borders azerbaijan well frontier fizuli district azeri prime minister leaving great britain baku \( may 22 \) turan minister foreign economic relations , , interview turan agency said , great britain biggest foreign economic partner azerbaijan iran business cooperation two countries develops spheres oil industry , manufacture oil extraction equipment , communication agriculture according minister 's words , forthcoming visit azerbaijani prime minister , , great britain may 23 24 , important expected , visit help , solve problems opening azerbaijan branch offices british banks , insurance firms conclude contracts sphere manufacture agricultural equipment building azerbaijan shore oil platforms , reconstruction entire communication system azerbaijan 's view , expansion cooperation great britain great political meaning azerbaijan according politicians reviewers baku , present , great britain european state close azerbaijan continuation economic political cooperation two states foreseen u r n n e w g e n c baku azerbaijan phone \( \) 66 66 fax \( \) 66 telex meta su serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject notwithstanding geographic location , greece un european organization zuma distribution world lines 83 article 1 vax1 bham ac uk vax1 bham ac uk writes turkey may wish , issue funny mention 's whole point invariably miss source nations , human development report , ' 1990 annual output per person dollars adjusted purchasing power parity turkiye , greece chile category , 3 , 000 5 , 999 source economics theory paul r maurice , harper collins publishers , 1991 , \( second edition \) terms output per person dollars adjusted purchasing power parity , ' greece category turkiye indeed , greek governments enormous problems tackle economy shambles , corruption rampant , air pollution outrageous dimensions , state sponsored terrorism name game infrastructure another insightful article new york times \( sunday , april 7 \) exposes dirty greece , describes pariah european community article reports '' un european , greece uses community cash register , times even steals european tax money political home principal members community admit mistake accept greece european community '' affirmation testimony fact notwithstanding geographic location , greece un european mentality attitude indeed , last 12 years , turkiye registered great success regard economic restructuring sound economy , ready integrated world economies , emerged , one , witnessed '70s 12 years ago , greece used export double much turkiye inversely , turkiye 's overall exports exceed far greece far tourism incomes concerned , witnessing phenomenon governments turkiye put particular emphasis infrastructure investments \( rather investing world terrorist organizations \) , thereby solving issue completely indeed , '70s , question conduct telephone call eastern anatolia west nowadays , case , far remote town , even village may , time , long distance call given country however , could applied greece fact , easy athens trunk call germany round clock happen greek islands , chance pretty slim therefore , would exaggeration argue turkiye far ahead greece regard facilities greece , virtue full membership , enjoyed advantages ec , obtaining huge grants extensive subsidies turkiye , access similar financial supports , nevertheless managed create better economy enabled produce consecutive current accounts surplus last two years , turkiye deserves country region permanent current accounts surplus serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
secretary , guest email account 27916070 plearn bitnet subject 25th may ambassador warsaw univ originator tpm israel nysernet org reply 27916070 plearn bitnet organization nysernet lines 37 original message sb please find electronic copy put warsaw u jewish circle arts sciences , university warsaw , warsaw , invites lecture present day issues middle east delivered dr mohamed , egypt 's ambassador poland time place 4 p , tuesday , 25th may , '93 , \( dept arabic islamic studies , oriental institute \( polish \) , university warsaw , 26 28 street , pl 00 927 warsaw , poland \( 'd kol w na ad pt , osi dr mohamed , w 16 00 , , 25 , '93 , \( ad , , , 26 28 , pl 00 927 48 cps \( c \) copyright plus 21
eng sun com \( p \) subject serbs get ammunition \? organization sun microsystems , inc lines 7 distribution world reply eng sun com nntp posting host trying follow current conflict former yugoslavia one thing cannot figure serbs croats get weapons , etc \? n't run \? ram
aa824 cleveland freenet edu \( mark ira kaufman \) subject genuine admission genuine homosexual nntp posting host thor ins cwru edu organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 20 must finally admit total truth central core homosexual normal , run mill homosexual , rabid homosexual zionist hide behind facade pro israel rhetoric deflect suspicion true motive exchange romantic dialogue nick steel , frequent fudge packing adventures , maintain level course , need discretion admission truth could longer hold secret longer love , nick , love hold yisrael , may stand forever , love , insinuating kosher rectum always mark
eggertj moses mit edu \( jim eggert x6127 g41 \) subject chomsky reply aap wam umd edu 's message 24 may 1993 19 17 34 gmt lines 9 reply eggertj mit edu organization mit lincoln lab group 41 caught tail end piece npr \( national public radio \) chomsky apparently new documentary concepts propagandist news media west , funny thing npr painted chomsky documentary positive light , least ended report positive way documentary showing cities us , open cities june sorry , forgot title jim eggertj mit edu \( jim eggert \)
raffi watnxt08 ucr edu \( raffi r kojian \) subject jokes ! lines 95 nntp posting host ucr edu serdar , told real , account fake \( confirmed trying e mail \) advised waste time writing , get pleasure watching make fool article zuma uucp sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) writes article 1993may19 cypress com bmug org \( \) writes really bounds decency slandering tens generations peace loving armenians , kind mean generations people die sdpa 91 urartu uucp yes , stated stand sdpa 255 urartu uucp stand statement armenians ok , see lets even act chance human see serdar , judge people race called racism tend sort thing obviously n't label entire race way , easy stop thinking human beings , make genocide possible guess \( serdar fill page quotes taken context \) know , huh \? december 17 , 1980 sydney two nazi armenians massacre sarik ariyak bodyguard , engin sever jcag sdpa claim responsibility n't find weak enemies fascist nazi barbarian fill blank catch bad term public knowledge hagopian , began notorious career member terrorist group perpetrated massacre israeli athletes munich olympics 1972 public knowlege \? aware see , armenians decide kill israeli athletes 1972 practice confused , thanks clearing 'armenian stole children turkiye fund criminal activities asala sdpa arf terrorists cold blooded murder defenceless turkish kurdish people wow , roll accusations today serdar , armenians steal turkish children \? lunch money \? cute inserted children fill blank accusation sheet fill every day really touches heart oh thank letting know kurds armenians hate aware time ever talked kurds wonderful treatment recieving turkey must high insanity sure lot fighting non turkish government let culture flower past 70 years armenian foundation provided 30 billion tl asala 01 09 92 , armenian foundation based istanbul found provided 30 billion turkish \( 6 million \) armenian terrorist organization asala murdered several turkish diplomats abroad thanks unbiased turkish media source sure rated number one accuracy truth deadliest terrorist , carlos , proclaimed spanish television organization entered working relationship armenian terrorists using drug trafficking raise money 'to slaughter innocent people innocent \? terrorists call victims \? never heard terrorists calling victims innocent yes , folks news ira public relations department reported killed 20 innocent victims car bombing nope serdar , n't think armenian genocide 2 5 million muslim people 1914 1920 oops almost forgot fill say something turks killed armenians section note serdar argic yeah sure really serdar argic , really bob hope ! ! ! ! may already 10 million dollars ! ! ! unfortunately armenian foundation sure steal subway give terrorists kill innocent kurds innocent israeli athletes ahhh , going take fantasy world \? \?
raffi watnxt08 ucr edu \( raffi r kojian \) subject turkey perfect ! moving lines 27 nntp posting host ucr edu well everybody , reading tons notes serdar , come following conclusion turkey perfect , turk ever made mistake proved least land occupied turkey today , always lived peacefully turks \( including istanbul aka constantinople \) treat minorities like gods done good evil neighbors attacked somehow , despite evil neighbors capable nothing murder population exploded almost 60 million turkey alone \( note , armenian worldwide population approximately 7 million total \) want go heaven earth meet race made serdar possible , , become mecca human rights lovers \( amnesty international must bad sources , turkey would never torture citizens , treat minorities badly , 7 foreign journalists last year alone , incidentally still missing \) , trying say want turk ! ! ! ! back reality astounded ability ignore truth , truly difficult questions , go encyclopedia quotes sources pasted note page ! anybody believed anything said , please step forward let know n't wasting time , somebody convinced volume e mail produce , quality content well go dream perfect place , nirvana , utopia , , turkey ! n w h
tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) subject genuine admission genuine homosexual nntp posting host orion oac uci edu organization university california , irvine lines 15 article usenet ins cwru edu aa824 cleveland freenet edu \( mark ira kaufman \) writes must finally admit total truth central core insinuating kosher rectum always mark say nick go somewhere else yard crap tim clock ph graduate student uci tel 714 , 8565361 department politics society fax 714 , 8568441 university california irvine home tel 714 , 8563446 irvine , ca 92717
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject coward cosar organization zuma distribution world lines 37 article usenet ins cwru edu aa824 cleveland freenet edu \( mark ira kaufman \) writes arab armies attack israel yom kippur \? suppose brave slaughter athletes olympics \? maybe dirty cosar pig long , long time source ahmet cosar said part 1992 terror attack munich , reporter , february 7 , 1993 , p 1 le , influential anatolia daily , based unidentified sources , claimed last week ahmet cosar , founder leader one faction big mac funny army liberation flies spider \( \) , among argic led terrorists staged attack fast food restaurant munich le added 1992 , cosar operated tygra michigan com , escaped country bullshit bikers entered city time statement issued claimed mr cosar dead wounds suffered becker gts org , although generally believed mysterious leader alive well presently residing alternately , , zuma , paper also noted communist government sexual hasan b mutlu f u c k l l party accepted zumabot 's underground leader open arms still providing assistance exchange pornographic material le adds derives small portion expenditures wealthy drug lords support cause , rest coming either sources proceeds involvement child porn trafficking serdar argic 'we closed tight , late ' \( hasan b mutlu 1993 \)
subject heir martillo \( say religion \) uceng uc edu \( \) organization university cincinnati lines 19 article cirrus com chrism cirrus com \( chris metcalfe \) writes article world std com tti world std com \( joachim martillo \) writes fair , traditional jewish christian thinking actually quite similar islamic thinking issues modern civilized westerners strive complete joachim carlo santos martillo ajami heil ! heil ajami ! , prefer heil martillo ! heil santos ! heil carlo ! heil joachim ! would suggest , sounds informal , mein !
oaf zurich ai mit edu \( oded feingold \) subject land belong \( jews shoot muslim infants \) organization artificial intelligence lab lines 70 distribution world 1993may19 columbiasc ncr com cs huji ac il ucunix san uc edu cs huji ac il reply oaf zurich ai mit edu nntp posting host klosters ai mit edu reply cs huji ac il 's message 23 may 1993 13 29 19 gmt lovely arguments write historical ownership place palestine , pakistan , cyprus , aegean islands \( oil may lie beneath \) , whatever reason justification others \? truly matter whose ancestor lived 20 , 200 , 2000 years ago \? treat land \? wise enough decree person 's right life , liberty pursuit happiness particular place depends accidents birth \? even sure precise tracks sperm people wish despise \? imho , american indians right belong earth , belong us failure understand good way cause way around guess trash environment sufficiently shall die along baby eating killing mother , dying lack milk death disease respect national boundaries , toxins , disease vectors , lost forest cover water supplies , way fight national group owns piece turf , merely contending best vantage point kill others , land eventually something proud proud makes glad human i'm mindlessly rejecting nationalism maybe 's fair ask whether recent immigrant deserves share infrastructure ancestors \( hah ! \) produce 's artificial distinction recent immigrant , even refugee , less likely contribute next generation 's legacy anyone else \? history reverse often case recent immigrants strive hardest nothing else , fill open eco \( l n \) , tribe infinitely better tribe , understand nothing plot knock , course , make sure n't happen , even must shoot muslim infants \( bash jewish ones walls \) 'll prove moral superiority , , well rightness cause clearly , higher purpose life killing others like would never get way fun let 's see soc culture turkish n't turks go back lake came , leave land greeks , stole fair square \? soc culture pakistan n't guys redistribute india , god meant \? soc culture jewish , soc culture arabic stick together , fight together , die together brothers , inseparable talk politics mideast oh well , oded planning , soon finish present assignment p ca n't get semi decent death threat anymore \? p p yeh , native americans right kill keep spreading
oaf zurich ai mit edu \( oded feingold \) subject netanyahu stoned organization artificial intelligence lab lines 6 reply oaf zurich ai mit edu nntp posting host klosters ai mit edu reply cy779 cleveland freenet edu 's message 20 may 1993 21 13 06 gmt anas omran since jews way , find leader follow ! anas , much netanyahu paying write \?
dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) subject armenians karabakh deserve independence ! summary karabakh armenians native americans organization p center regional studies lines 44 article metaphor com metaphor com \( ivan \) wrote response article galaxy ucr edu , raffi watnxt08 ucr edu \( raffi r kojian \) says ic armenians , usa ic fact , areas armenians majority ic suppose , large group people one area decides , ic us government representing interests , vote ic usa armenians refer chosen come united states lawfully peacefully however , armenians invade united states force americans either flee become armenians , succeed similarly , armenians karabakh forced azerbaijan either become azeris leave , also succeed , demonstrated karabakh , irrespective geographic position situated technically within stalin prepared borders azerbaijan , long oppressed eventually invaded 1991 azeri soviet forces , resulting northern third armenian area armenians armenians fighting back ever since clearly , feel rather ridiculous armenians , let 's say , california , engage independence movement free independent similarly , azerbaijanis engaging losing attempt claiming sovereignty land people karabakh , lived continuously karabakh thousand years first central asian invaders ever stepped foot caucasus ic get \? ic un enforce \? ic simple , beautiful concept , indeed \? analogy broken switched positions victim invader better analogy would direct parallel armenians karabakh native americans , wish , discuss tenets might versus right policies settler nations ! david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org armenia learned lesson p center regional studies anatolia forgotten p box 382761 punishment inflicted 4 14 93 cambridge , 02238 late turkish president turgut ozal
gmw0622 rigel tamu edu \( mr grinch \) subject limiting govt \( employment \( concentrate \) organization grinchco lines 41 distribution world nntp posting host rigel tamu edu summary libertarian texas news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article 1993apr19 isc br isc br com , steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) writes article venus tamu edu gmw0622 venus tamu edu \( mr grinch \) writes steve , 're one suggested failed government ideal proving ground , never felt way first place quite contrary , think better proving ground would someplace already governemnt would prevent outright acts agression , yet strong spirit individualism initiative someplace like texas \) mr grinch texas taxpayers might willingly eliminate tax support ut tamu , i'm sure 'd support football programs football pay 's impact ross perot 's fortune eliminating various state supported programs 's made money \? 's already made sure else able public specific ways , \( \) care \? , texas n't seem likely place libertarianism take hold \) likely places important state issue whether state income tax instead legalize popular vice fund raising , vice decisive victory ! jsh mr grinch p 's safely dead , expect david koresh become hero popular folk , atf generally equated santa anna
garrett ingres com subject limiting govt \( employment summary thanks offer news software vax vms vnews 1 4 b1 keywords organization ask computer systems , ingres product division distribution usa lines 55 article morrow stanford edu , xa forsythe stanford edu \( writes article 1993apr17 pony ingres com , garrett ingres com \( grep friend \) writes article 1993apr17 eecs nwu edu , ian epsilon eecs nwu edu \( ian writes could n't disagree strongly sounds good , practice often becomes tyranny , often conflicting ideas constitutes improving human condition far better let people organizations pursue whatever goals think best , let human condition improved willing without coercion always conflicting ideas constitutes improving human condition , 's humanity seem believe libertarianism improve human condition lifting constraints , people better chance improving environment let try put another way libertarians believe environment provides best chance solving problem creativity however , never guarantee really good solution ever found particular problem utopia option utopia myth \( although lot better today \) think must pitch libertarianism progressive agenda \( ie better style system \) admire lot libertarians stand , guys worst salesmen ever seen comes politics , need salesmen whether want need people agree us , know something , willing marketing teach others \? i'm invitation , i'm afraid wrong person although completely agree civil liberties agenda , i'm support economic agenda like libertarian party guys good shaking tired ideas past encourage guys continue crusade , i'm afraid ca n't ride along ian sutherland ian eecs nwu edu nothing inevitable mistake whose time garrett johnson come garrett ingres com june nothing inevitable mistake whose time garrett johnson come garrett ingres com probability someone watching proportional stupidity action unknown
piatt gdc com \( gary piatt \) subject new study gay percentage organization general datacomm ind inc , middlebury , ct lines 14 nntp posting host x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 clayton cramer \( cramer optilink com \) wrote rest homosexual community pass laws impose moral codes , requiring hire , rent , otherwise associate homosexual , yes , face homosexuals stop trying impose morals , face ahh , 's good goose necessarily 's good n't want homosexuals impose moral codes \( diabolical ideas equal rights \) , yet willing impose moral codes detect double standard \? garison
techie cellar org \( william bacon \) subject earth also pollutes organization cellar bbs public access system lines 72 fury mother nature man 's contribution environmental pollution paltry compared nature exceptional book trashing planet , former atomic energy commision chairman dr dixie lee ray notes based available data , air polluting materials produced man since beginning industrial revolution begin equal quantities toxic materials , aerosols , particulates air three volcanoes krakatoa indonesia , mount alaska 1912 , iceland 1947 could added mount st washington state 1980 \( pumped 910 , 000 metric tons carbon dioxide alone \) el mexico 1982 \( sent 100 million tons sulfur gases stratosphere \) , mount philippines \( 1991 hurled upwards 30 million tons material stratosphere \) los many environmentalists attributed 1988 drought u global warming , researchers national center atmospheric research boulder colorado reported weather actually due natural phenomenon , interaction el el nina , two massive currents pacific el huge strip warm water periodically appears coast south america world 's weather patterns , el nina , mass cold water comes ocean depths along equator thousands miles chicago peter summarized phenomenon cold water along equator clashed warmer normal water southeast hawaii result u drought devastating swamped bangladesh nina 's cooler water disrupted weather patterns distorted path jet stream across north america jet stream shoved rain producing weather systems away interior u resulting drought terror animals insects also contribute share environmental degradation time april 20 , 1992 noted netherlands manure pigs poses major ecological threat , defiling water supplies excessive local sheep permanently landscape spain portugal , india cows whose constant quest food drives standing february 1983 issue science digest reported international team researchers discovered generate twice carbon dioxide fuel burning according study reported science november 5 , 1982 , estimated gross amount carbon dioxide produced twice net global input fossil fuel combustion addition , potentially important source atmospheric methane could account large fraction global emmisions wood eating bacteria enables digest carbon efficiently 90 pe converted carbon dioxide , methane , gases atmosphere ants another natural source pollution 1987 , atmospheric chemist bell laboratories , cornell university , reported ants make store huge quantities acid contributes rain falls remote areas found atmosphere gas around globe abundant , instance , fog hang rain forests central africa according july 6 , 1987 insight magazine , ants release acid defending communicating upon dying since 30 percent world ant population belongs , significant concern acid ants release , amount estimated 600 , 000 metric tons annually equal combined acid contributions automobiles , refuse combustion vegetation clearly , man long way go match nature environment robert w lee techie cellar org \( william bacon \) cellar bbs \( 215 \) 539 3043
techie cellar org \( william bacon \) subject scientists believe green house effect organization cellar bbs public access system lines 93 following statement released february 27 , 1992 science environmental policy project independent scientists researching atmosphere climate problems , concerned agenda , united nations conference environment development , developed environmental activists groups certain political leaders called earth summit scheduled brazil june 1992 aims impose system global regulations , including taxes energy fuels , population united states industrialized nations policy initiatives derive highly scientific theories based unsupported assumption catastrophic global warming follows burning fuels requires immediate action agree survey u atmospheric scientists , conducted summer 1991 , confirms cause slight warming observed past century recently published research paper even suggests sunspot \( directly proportional solar activity \) , rather rise greenhouse gases responsible global temperature increases decreases since , majority scientific participants survey agreed theoretical climate climate models used predict future warming cannot relied upon validated existing climate record yet predictions based theoretical models finally , generally agree increase carbon dioxide levels fossil fuels burning beneficial effects crops world food supply disturbed activists , anxious stop energy economic growth , pushing ahead drastic policies without taking notice recent changes underlying science fear rush impose global regulations catastrophic impacts world economy , jobs , standards living , health care , severe consequences falling developing countries poor david b , phd , senior , woods hole oceanographic institute nathaniel b , phd , research physical scientist , national climatic data center hugh b , phd , meteorologist , livermore national laboratory richard , phd , center meteorology physical , massachusetts institute technology robert c , phd , director , laboratory , arizona state university patrick , phd , assoc professor environmental sciences , virginia roger , phd , professor atmospheric science , colorado state university micheal , phd , professor meteorology , university virginia sherwood p , phd , research physicist , u water conservation laboratory lev phd , visiting scientist , national center atmospheric research john , chief , forecast research group , forecast systems laboratory , noaa h jean , phd , research scientist , national center , national weather service , noaa kenneth v beard , phd , professor atmospheric physics , university illinois paul w mielke , jr phd , professor , department statistics , colorado state university thomas , meteorological standards institute peter f , , weather service director , , former regional director , national weather service gabriel , phd , eminent professor , old dominion university roy , executive weather director , weather data services terrance j clark , meteorologist , u air force neil l frank , phd , meteorologist , national weather service bruce boe , phd , director , north dakota atmospheric resource board andrew detweiler , phd , assoc professor , institute atmospheric sciences , south dakota school mines technology robert cunningham , consulting meteorologist , fellow , american meteorological society stephen r , phd , sigma research corporation , elliot abrams , , senior vice president , , inc william e , phd , consulting meteorologist , professor emeritus , forest meteorology , yale university david w , research meteorologist jerry williams , meteorologist , president , ocean routes , inc lee w , meteorologist , geophysics division , pacific missile test center werner , phd , former dean , college arts sciences , florida state university david p , phd , assoc professor research oceanography , scripps institution brian , phd , asst professor meteorology , university edward , shapiro , chief meteorological research wave propagation laboratory , noaa , jr , associate professor meteorology , plymouth state college james moore , project manager , research applications program , national center atmospheric research daniel j , engineering brian , meteorologist , fellow , american meteorologist , fellow , american meteorological society h read , phd , meteorologist robert e , meteorologist william porch , phd , atmospheric physicist , los alamos national laboratory earle r williams , phd , associate meteorology , dept earth , atmospheric , planetary sciences , massachusetts institute technology fred singer , phd , atmospheric , university virginia , director , science environmental policy project \( listed identification purposes \) techie cellar org \( william bacon \) cellar bbs \( 215 \) 539 3043
eczcaw mips nott ac uk \( wainwright \) subject new study gay percentage reply eczcaw mips nott ac uk \( wainwright \) organization nottingham university lines 80 article 15427 optilink com , cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes 1 \) \? homosexuals lie 10 number hide disproportionate involvement homosexuals child molestation also lie 10 keep politicians scared back proof , shut 2 \) interesting see reaction 2 5million queers gather washington dc 6million us event unprecidented history many people marching n't homosexuals , members leftist agenda , back statements shut article also contains numbers number sexual partners median number sexual partners men 20 39 7 3 n't forget 25 20 partners surprising remember , study includes homosexuals well hmm tell , go mickey mouse school logic \? stated many homosexuals kinsey reported survey \( surveys kinsey institute since \) say reason many young people promiscuous homosexuals form large part group , homosexuals whose lives consist sex , gaps eating c using logic would seem suggest average gay men 2000 partners week ! try think arguments carefully , , like laugh every compared table already posted masters , johnson , kolodny showing male homosexual partners , apparent homosexual men dramatically promiscuous general male population study show number sexual contacts said homosexual \? number n't published hence argument cannot resolved using data next point , please 's shame n't breakdown straight men vs gay bi men would show even dramatically much promiscuous gay bi men fuck typical response depends premise three types behaviour gay , bi hetero yet proved see earlier post kinsey institute grading , although rough , seems logical also use would show , defining fact assumption , back statements shut clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent , adda wainwright dim atal llanw ! 8o \) eczcaw mips nott ac uk 8o \) mae sig 'ma ar werth !
eczcaw mips nott ac uk \( wainwright \) subject new study gay percentage reply eczcaw mips nott ac uk \( wainwright \) organization nottingham university lines 26 article optilink com , cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes yes rest homosexual community pass laws impose moral codes , requiring hire , rent , otherwise associate homosexual , yes , face homosexuals stop trying impose morals , face post based premise laws stand discriminate anybody , argument falls immediately really dumb use language prove argument \? please feel free answer , , anything intelligent say matter clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent , adda wainwright dim atal llanw ! 8o \) eczcaw mips nott ac uk 8o \) mae sig 'ma ar werth !
eczcaw mips nott ac uk \( wainwright \) subject new study gay percentage reply eczcaw mips nott ac uk \( wainwright \) organization nottingham university lines 25 article optilink com , cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes might except gay men much promiscuous straight men shows damaged screwed gay men excuse moment laugh head defy prove statement damaged screwed ca n't \? oh dear argument , , mr logic \( ! \) , falls flat face take course civil behaviour logic come back defend arguments clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent , adda wainwright dim atal llanw ! 8o \) eczcaw mips nott ac uk 8o \) mae sig 'ma ar werth !
busta enet dec com subject waco survivors 1715 19 april organization digital equipment corporation lines 41 article c5segz mwr dscomsa desy de , hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) writes article apm hpopdlau pwd hp com , apm hpopdlau pwd hp com \( andrew merritt \) writes path dscomsa ! dxcern ! mcsun ! uknet ! pipex ! uunet ! think com ! sdd hp com ! hpscit sc hp com ! apm apm hpopdlau pwd hp com \( andrew merritt \) article 1993apr19 1 vms ocom okstate edu chorley vms ocom okstate edu writes note insufficient emotion amongst five survivors waco debacle , two brits aussie anglo saxon persona really n't lend martyrdom spurious messiah n't see draw conclusion around 20 80 inside buildings british \( one quarter \) two eight \( latest count heard \) survivors british \( one quarter \) anyhow , british n't equate anglo saxon exactly trying say \? fire engines within mile compound \? gun loonies firing vehicles 50mm range 3000 meters crap , phil 50mm \? wrong give clue big 50mm , f 16 fighter aircraft guns used shoot aircraft 50mm gun would somewhere realm might 50 calibre definitely 50mm paul r busta busta enet dec com salem , n h 603 894 make peaceful revolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable
eczcaw mips nott ac uk \( c wainwright \) subject new study gay percentage reply eczcaw mips nott ac uk \( c wainwright \) organization nottingham university lines 22 article optilink com , cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes n't care , much effort put promoting 10 lie \? important scare politicians obedience perhaps change name clayton mr logic \( ! \) cramer ! please give evidence statement shut believe may answered elsewhere , amongst clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent , adda wainwright dim atal llanw ! 8o \) eczcaw mips nott ac uk 8o \) mae sig 'ma ar werth !
eczcaw mips nott ac uk \( wainwright \) subject new study gay percentage reply eczcaw mips nott ac uk \( wainwright \) organization nottingham university lines 43 article optilink com , cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes article f3p murdoch acc virginia edu , gsh7w fermi clas virginia edu \( greg hennessy \) writes article philc5n6d5 mk3 netcom com phil netcom com \( phil ronzone \) writes tells something fascist politics practiced ah , ending discrimination fascism greg hennessy , university virginia force people associate others , yes good grief ! believe may argument may discussed intelligently ! guess person dislikes contact people ethnic minority however , argument falls flat face state , anti discrimination bill , would forced associate others homosexuals , assume know associate , except may closeted \? would like change argument read forced associate truthfully homosexual people \? proof anyone know may homosexual punches large hole argument belief homosexual comes one flavour \( sic \) camp type \? prove cannot must admit though , looks actually thought response time instead raving clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent , adda wainwright dim atal llanw ! 8o \) eczcaw mips nott ac uk 8o \) mae sig 'ma ar werth !
eczcaw mips nott ac uk \( c wainwright \) subject concentrate child molesters \? reply eczcaw mips nott ac uk \( c wainwright \) organization nottingham university lines 31 article 15441 optilink com , cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes reckon man would go wildly promiscuous presented huge variety willing partners question , suppose , says lot screwed hey , clayton , 's ! love arguments completely clinch every one points ! , , suppose , says lot screwed n't much fun since started blasting christians alt atheism ! clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! xavier clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent , adda wainwright dim atal llanw ! 8o \) eczcaw mips nott ac uk 8o \) mae sig 'ma ar werth !
eczcaw mips nott ac uk \( wainwright \) subject using california 's antidiscrimination sort case predicted reply eczcaw mips nott ac uk \( wainwright \) organization nottingham university lines 30 article optilink com , cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes walz monster , however , past 40 molested kids , says hehehe ! love carefully constructed arguements \? clayton , babe , please define word using legal term proper dictionary term \? molest , far remember , means damage person \( \) ` mate , mike , woman 's 14 molestation \? number friends \( straight \) lost virginity \? told thoroughly enjoyed experience see damage please stop pushing objective morality others push , people wo n't fall say , 're right ! ' , 'll push back signed logic course yet \? clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent , adda wainwright dim atal llanw ! 8o \) eczcaw mips nott ac uk 8o \) mae sig 'ma ar werth !
hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) subject welcome police state usa lines 66 reply hallam zeus02 desy de organization desydeutsches elektronen synchrotron , experiment zeus bei hera article 1993apr20 030234 66491 cc usu edu , slp9k cc usu edu writes xref dscomsa alt activism 6011 talk politics misc path dscomsa ! dxcern ! mcsun ! uunet ! gatech ! howland reston ans net ! agate ! dog ee lbl gov ! hellgate utah edu ! cc usu edu ! slp9k slp9k cc usu edu newsgroups alt activism , talk politics misc subject welcome police state usa message id 1993apr20 030234 66491 cc usu edu date 20 apr 93 03 02 34 mdt references 1993apr20 cc usu edu c5rusq m6m news cso uiuc edu organization utah state university lines 34 article c5rusq m6m news cso uiuc edu , azoghlin uxa cso uiuc edu \( old freshman \( vof \) \) writes critisism easy solutions people would better fbi last months \? firstly , could backed put power freak , like david koresh , kind situation going explode \( pun intended \) koresh wanted martyr government played right hands government n't given attention wanted nothing would ever happened secondly , davidians expecting everything government thought facing apocalypse , perish fire n't scared fbi average , devout followers religion n't work government got frustrated murdered batf left beginning , looked koresh 's personality instead thought , guns bigger guns let 's go get 'em ! botched day one n't first place conveniently ignores murder four batf agents branch davidians unprovoked ambush government allows tinpot dictators set shop declare private state drifted anarchy laws control ownership guns batf good reason beleive violated set obtain legal warrant attempted serve met gunfire rang doorbell paranoid assertion batf fired first unprovoked assault assumes batf death wish expected b anything peacefull citizens would accept search authorized court would turned tank broken door day one stupidity attempt serve warant place ludicrously underarmed unprotected police anyone net cares suggest sure fire method bringing murderes four police officers justice perhaps could hear phill hallam baker
stgprao st unocal com \( richard ottolini \) subject bill targets pension funds liberation organization unocal corporation lines 14 article fox graphics nyu edu fox graphics cs nyu edu \( david fox \) writes one time chase every rumor gets printed national enquirer whatever point wait see assertions \( rather bizarre \) original post way perhaps recent posts rather bizarre original poster speak story la times months ago clinton administration exploring every avenue revenue enhancement , chosen funny cartoon sunday 's ny times bill clinton 's calendar every day april 15
neal magpie linknet com \( neal \) subject violence organization manes associates , nyc distribution usa x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 11 person sees front home garbage person removes trash , sweeps sidewalk next door person approaches two neighbors talks cleaning front homes , would good living conditions , neighborhood 's nothing wrong holding neighbors accountable actions basis viable , safe community regards , neal
goykhman apollo hp com \( red herring \) subject clinton 's wiretapping initiative nntp posting host dzoo ch apollo hp com organization hewlett packard company , chelmsford , lines 29 article news aero org helfman aero org \( robert helfman \) writes article 9304161803 aa23713 inet gw 2 pa dec com blh uiboise idbsu edu \( broward l horne \) writes look newsgroup , able find clinton 's proposed wiretapping initiative computer networks telephone systems 'initiative congress least past 6 months , guise fbi wiretapping bill kind brainless posted garbage \? would kind explain clinton 's initiative , congress least past 6 months \? clinton 's initiative pushing hard n't liberals supposed concerned privacy rights \? want know wiretapping initiative , read 1984 's , installed every bedroom disclaimer opinions expressed mine , employer 's
stephen orchid ucsc edu \( \) subject facts , new study gay percentage organization santa cruz lines 30 nntp posting host orchid ucsc edu article 15427 optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes homosexuals lie 10 number hide disproportionate involvement homosexuals child molestation also lie 10 keep politicians scared lie substantiated understand like please stop making ridiculous claims maybe consider working getting information national inquirer many people marching n't homosexuals , members leftist agenda ahh ! rabbit hat another desperate step discount activity washington gay march article also contains numbers number sexual partners median number sexual partners men 20 39 7 3 n't forget 25 20 partners surprising remember , study includes homosexuals well yes , mr cramer 1 entire population plus stated 7 3 figure
stephen orchid ucsc edu \( \) subject could backwards \? new study gay percentage organization santa cruz lines 28 nntp posting host orchid ucsc edu article optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes purpose post \? show mindless obsession statistics , incredibly flawed system reasoning , repellent hatemonger agenda , purpose accomplished panache \( \) get clue \( b \) get life \( c \) get face i'm bi andrew simchik schnopia ! yes rest homosexual community pass laws impose moral codes , requiring hire , rent , otherwise associate homosexual , yes , face homosexuals stop trying impose morals , face n't imposing moral standards gay people want rent , hire , put associate , \( know law requires associate gay people \) \? works ways people want equal opportunity things lie public domain gigantic step forward people take people based upon ability talent , rather skin color , eye color , height , weight , sexual orientation \( use last one meaning gay , bi , straight , let 's go tangent pedophiles , rapist , etc \)
stephen orchid ucsc edu \( \) subject verbal garbage way new study gay percentage organization santa cruz lines 24 nntp posting host orchid ucsc edu article optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes article 1993apr17 news cs brandeis edu , st923336 pip cc brandeis edu \( blort ! eeeep ! hwaaah \) writes would n't one expect heterosexual men gay men promiscuous simply due larger group potential partners \? thought matt might except gay men much promiscuous straight men shows damaged screwed gay men getting sad make ridiculous statements , based upon old information press democrat article poorly written please show numbers use much seen want true accurate , least show trend within everyday gay population kinds screwed up' people , gay keep , shoot position
carroll hercules cis udel edu \( mark c carroll \) subject welcome police state usa nntp posting host hercules cis udel edu organization university delaware , newark lines 55 article c5rusq m6m news cso uiuc edu azoghlin uxa cso uiuc edu \( old freshman \( vof \) \) writes critisism easy solutions people would better fbi last months \? well , never gotten situation look history group david koresh arrested \? twice \? local police times , accepted arrest warrant went peacefully , feds decide arrest choose arrest person record peaceful obedience arrest \? throw concussion grenades building addition , know 've lied initially , told suspected molesting children several wives atf offenses , \? changed story , several times original warrant still sealed told rockets ammunition anyone notice ammo exploding fire \? claimed koresh n't left compound months people town report seeing week raid would handled differently \? well , first , n't seen evidence bds anything wrong 's sealed warrant , collection stories keep changing might done anything ok , supposing know bds arrested well , 've got history accepting arrests , send officers door warrant wearing vests covered distance , 's good reason suspect people anything , right \? n't anyone try serving warrant \? ok going refuse warrant becomes necessary raid plan raid hear hour leak , know coming \? well , change plans , right \? nope go ahead anyone including sending unprotected men break place idiotic n't know would ended original raid never happened shit came later never happened full record raid released public let us know hell really happened lies never told mc mark craig carroll mc people getting tired lies univ delaware , dept cis people believe 's time grad student hacker 're demanding rights answers carroll udel edu elect precedent state mind fish
stephen orchid ucsc edu \( \) subject stop forcing ! new study gay percentage organization santa cruz lines 20 nntp posting host orchid ucsc edu article optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes article f3p murdoch acc virginia edu , gsh7w fermi clas virginia edu \( greg hennessy \) writes ah , ending discrimination fascism greg hennessy , university virginia force people associate others , yes forced everyday associate people wish , n't even law makes , becuase want go shopping , go work , go public park , go baseball game , etc process ending discrimination based upon rational concept men \( women , people \) created , equal standing chances society
carroll hercules cis udel edu \( mark c carroll \) subject welcome police state usa nntp posting host hercules cis udel edu organization university delaware , newark lines 52 article c5si9g hx dscomsa desy de hallam zeus02 desy de writes conveniently ignores murder four batf agents branch davidians unprovoked ambush government allows tinpot dictators set shop declare private state drifted anarchy laws control ownership guns batf good reason beleive violated set obtain legal warrant attempted serve met gunfire rang doorbell paranoid assertion batf fired first unprovoked assault assumes batf death wish expected b anything peacefull citizens would accept search authorized court would turned tank broken door day one stupidity attempt serve warant place ludicrously underarmed unprotected police wait second , 're ignoring major facts attempt simply serve warrant batf knock warrant initial firefight began batf threw concussion grenades building \( batf admits ! \) anyone net cares suggest sure fire method bringing murderes four police officers justice perhaps could hear let 's realistic , shall \? 're member rather paranoid religious organization someone comes building , dressed black suits , carrying firearms throw concussion grenade place , try break , exactly , going \? would allow anyone enter home without first identifying someone attacks home firing weapons throwing explosive , think 'd entirely justified defending regardless think bds , regardless whether guilty firearms violations , way treat people supposedly free society mc mark craig carroll mc people getting tired lies univ delaware , dept cis people believe 's time grad student hacker 're demanding rights answers carroll udel edu elect precedent state mind fish
piatt gdc com \( gary piatt \) subject new study gay percentage organization general datacomm ind inc , middlebury , ct lines 19 nntp posting host x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 clayton cramer wrote lawrence c foard writes median number sexual partners men 20 39 7 3 n't forget 25 20 partners surprising remember , study includes homosexuals well implying , , homosexual men promiscuous heterosexual men interesting , especially wake news report last week group high school seniors \( heterosexual , might add \) boasted monthly 67 girls seems promiscuity limited homosexuals sad fact life matter look whether homosexual promiscuity , racial discrimination , sexual harassment find whether actually exists 're looking garison
piatt gdc com \( gary piatt \) subject median \? \? \? new study gay percentage organization general datacomm ind inc , middlebury , ct lines 22 nntp posting host x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 stephen orchid ucsc edu wrote median distribution value divides distribution halfway , e 1 2 distribution \( population \) lower half higher values males 20 39 median 7 3 , means half men higher half lower population sample size 3300 , 1 gay , 33 males gay say distributed equally 16 5 greater 7 3 sexual partners , course , means 49 5 heterosexual men greater 7 3 quite first , median imply half men half 7 3 simply means 7 3 mid point maximum number partners minimum \( likely zero \) however , assuming implication less correct , final result still invalid 50 males 7 3 partners , assumed 1 homosexual males , remains 49 5 , still 50 heterosexual males say hey , 're human garison
jlinder magnus acs ohio state edu \( jeffrey linder \) subject kyle k rodney king nntp posting host bottom magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university distribution usa lines 46 article 1993apr19 midway uchicago edu thf2 midway uchicago edu writes article m15 news cso uiuc edu kkopp uxh cso uiuc edu \( koppenhoefer kyle cramm \) writes thf2 kimbark uchicago edu \( ted frank \) writes article c5lp0y fdk news cso uiuc edu kkopp uxh cso uiuc edu \( er kyle cramm \) writes fact bunch cops putting lives line day day afraid hell large black guy tha took large amount punishment refused submit \? i'm curious think particular adjective important black descriptive adjective describes mr king many newspaper , radio , tv news reports seen , adjective commonly front name never seen anyone complain use adjective used benign manner say mr king good black ! know mr king would make without evidence effect used purely descriptive adjective manner many \( \) news people used past one questioning whether mr king black question arises whether king 's race make police officers afraid hell statement seems imply cops different standard large black guys large guys general original poster never said afraid king black fact officers afraid king , color skin , mr frank read phrase large black man cried racism typical knee jerk fashion \( others , suspect \) get past problem maybe real problems issue discussed two posts later n't understand anyone pointed use adjective almost informative original use ted frank thf2 kimbark uchicago edu i'm sorry , card says moops u c law school standard disclaimers jsl
jlinder magnus acs ohio state edu \( jeffrey linder \) subject kyle k rodney king nntp posting host bottom magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university distribution usa lines 30 article 1993apr19 chevron com jviv usmi01 midland chevron com \( john viveiros \) writes article m15 news cso uiuc edu kkopp uxh cso uiuc edu \( koppenhoefer kyle cramm \) writes entire second trial race , ted n't feel compelled discuss mr king 's racial background , mr king white would second trial probably saying beating would occurred white , extremely difficult call make possible case , definately one could easily point jury decided extremely difficult call could made , two defendants found guilty one could also make interesting observations system justice , men guilty excessive force , guilty enough violated civil rights use \( non existant \) excessive force also interesting note powell \( maybe \) found guilty aiding king 's civil rights , two others also beat king others watched go figure \? say \? say appeal \? john viveiros \( jviv chevron com \) chevron usa standard disclaimer applies midland tx jsl
stephen orchid ucsc edu \( \) subject study study \? americans sexually repressed \? organization santa cruz lines 80 nntp posting host orchid ucsc edu article optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes article 1993apr16 cs okstate edu , kennejs cs okstate edu \( kennedy james scot \) writes , deduce figures \? lot less male homosexuals used men \( perhaps women \) honest used sexuality \? presumably , people polled mean , 1940s , men women much open homosexuality today \? want try one \? probably true today may much better gay population general mean , ignore study study , continue accept study \( kinsey 's \) obviously wrong \? studies \? cited , research shows many confuse survey study , big difference asking people outside polling booth adding numbers study easily gay suppose one big debates homosexuality whether 's type behavior learned one born way imho , likely explanation 's combination two based , besides warm fuzzy feelings \? base conclusion upon warm fuzzy feelings maybe stated educated opinion based upon studies involve genetics psychological influence lot types studies , n't \? try reading 's something ponder upon gay bashers ever considered homosexuals probably deem sexual orientation state affairs much intrinsic natural part life heterosexuals sexuality \? words , someone truly alcoholics share feeling , hit bottom crap statement comparison many people use sad stupid argument relationship alcoholics people 's sexual orientation except may find really drunk \( repressed released \) unless , course , problem homosexuality form mental disorder , caused childhood sexual abuse , number recent works suggest nonsense simply true suppose waste time try tell understand study presents cite extrapolate anything , homosexuals would stop using government impose morality others \( antidiscrimination laws \) leave children people general would stop using irrational position oppress 's leave private lives , would support laws rules protect people form need look post see lack rational thought intelligent alone , would n't care least private get liberal notion proper role government tell peaceful people live , choice continue point homosexuality alternative lifestyle , sickness remember peaceful people necessarily right thing peaceful , tolerant , enlightened , educated , rational thinking people need
jlinder magnus acs ohio state edu \( jeffrey linder \) subject nc vs hunt \( marine gay bashing wilmington nc \) verdict nntp posting host bottom magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university distribution usa lines 20 article 1993apr17 bsu ucs 00cmmiller leo bsuvc bsu edu writes fact bunch cops putting lives line day day afraid hell large black guy took large amount punishment refused submit \? oh yeah , h start video king got prone postion charge cops \? sorry , video cuts sit watch start finish sorry , n't see charge cops saw trying get away people beating guess see want see miller guess view video sofa gives better view cops involved \? guess one see one wants see jsl
pyotr halcyon com \( peter hampe \) subject stop former beloved damn organization northwest nexus inc lines 48 nntp posting host nwfocus wa com marc n106 z1 fidonet org \( marc \) writes quoting drieux , drieux dated 04 11 93 point , alluded , long usa remains state rebellion god 's divinely appointed vicar colonies , expect alienated god 's wonderful plan \? \? \? pleased restoration bourbon de bourbon 's tree climb , church farce destroys cultures i'm knocking religious morality , think americans take religion seriously point trying convert anyone anything particular sect 's question power salvation religions breed flock \( islam , judaism , christianity \) religion opiate masses , fanaticism brother , like 're pretty self never heard arguement absurdity , eh \? also called sarcasm usual procedure accept part arguement run one goes beyond ring changes z b idea minimum wage considered good one times economic difficulty , washington legislature raise state 4 25 \( federal level \) 4 90 \( fifteen cents oregon 's \) would seem increase keep pace inflation , minimum wage 6 08 figures , proposed raise minimum wage 6 50 per hour 1 july give 10 cost living increase every 4 july anyone n't like obviously country club republican getting rich exploitation poor people chus pyotr pyotr halcyon com sometimes pyotr filipivich , sometimes owl optimist bagpiper beeper
gsh7w fermi clas virginia edu \( greg hennessy \) subject new study gay percentage organization university virginia lines 17 article 15427 optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes n't forget 25 20 partners surprising remember , study includes homosexuals well err , earth clayton , posted show 2 homosexual assume every homosexual promiscious , leads us conclude 23 percent heterosexuals promiscious first bad one clayton , suprising claims making greg hennessy , university virginia usps mail astronomy department , charlottesville , va 22903 2475 usa internet gsh7w virginia edu uucp ! uunet ! virginia ! gsh7w
gsh7w fermi clas virginia edu \( greg hennessy \) subject new study gay percentage organization university virginia lines 17 ah , ending discrimination fascism clayton cramer writes force people associate others , yes earth clayton , topic discussion us military , volunteer force realize ca n't stop knee , least use half clue greg hennessy , university virginia usps mail astronomy department , charlottesville , va 22903 2475 usa internet gsh7w virginia edu uucp ! uunet ! virginia ! gsh7w
gsh7w fermi clas virginia edu \( greg hennessy \) subject concentrate child molesters \? organization university virginia lines 16 article optilink com walsh optilink com \( mark walsh \) writes really \? thought insurance companies hired actuarial staffs determine risks correlated groups people , gays likely aids sexual orientations correlation ! causality risk factor non unprotected sex , homosexual greg hennessy , university virginia usps mail astronomy department , charlottesville , va 22903 2475 usa internet gsh7w virginia edu uucp ! uunet ! virginia ! gsh7w
pyotr halcyon com \( peter hampe \) subject continuing decay organization northwest nexus inc lines 20 nntp posting host nwfocus wa com much blathering role military forces enforcing civil law deleted main problem trying get military involved police work differences missions police take names , try find happened , stop suspects \( thats meaning \) turn custody judicial branch case military 's mission kill enemy escape surrender chus pyotr pyotr halcyon com sometimes pyotr filipivich , sometimes owl optimist bagpiper beeper
hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) subject waco burnout lines 94 reply hallam zeus02 desy de organization desydeutsches elektronen synchrotron , experiment zeus bei hera article noose ecn purdue edu , garrod dynamo ecn purdue edu \( david garrod \) writes article 1993apr19 hemlock cray com , rja mahogany126 cray com \( russ anderson \) writes looks like branch davidian morning police \( fbi batf \) started ramming holes walls buildings shooting tear gas shortly , fire began buildings compound one davidian member come authorities saying branch davidian members seen starting fire looks like witnesses dispute claim 90 adults 19 children compound funny , fire seemed start right hand side building next tank backing away , though ! probably coincidence watch videotape carefully , cnn coverage fairly decisive first fire starts tower , three high flag right picture second fire starts another tower similar first two high flag left camera picture shows fire starting thus camera pictures show fire starting two separate locations fbi report third able verify videotape however someone else identified fire shown starting behind small tower second \( flag left \) camera angle flames coming building yellow orange normal colour carbon compounds burning flames solid confined liquid burning , gas exploding explosion occurs mid way along building certainly explosive though cloud fire would seem likely sort fuel oil store exploding rather explosion magazine funny , considering great cache explosives ammunition , etc compound , see series explosions depends entirely distributed would able identify ammunition rounds going video camera coverage mile away fbi release pictures armoured vehicles \( presumably exist \) might possible get clearer picture anyone expects see explosions hollywood style aka rambo movies remember real life cars burst flames going cliffs could expect would see grenades going since building designed blast proof extent would difficult distinguish grenades going collapse building due fire , oops , automatic weapons probably burnt fire witnesses paranoia unless , see videotapes showing davidians starting fire , guess may problem believing feds saying saw , didn`t manage tape everything else would n't beleive fbi showed picture koresh setting light place mindset simply unable accept true anything might suggest group heavily armed weapons fanatics might indeed wrong gun lobby ca n't accept b set light place would mean murdered 17 children , would mean taking account murder 4 batf agents would even less credible start koresh 51 days come hands face fair trial instead ordered murder everyone place phill hallam baker
jmk cbnews cb att com \( joseph knapp \) subject waco survivors 1715 19 april organization lines 36 article c5segz mwr dscomsa desy de hallam zeus02 desy de writes people want gun control must obviously discount entire government story simply rationalisation enough simply dismiss government incompetent would require come solution instead come government conspiracy theory whereby government decided set murder 80 people set sort scare alow get gun control legislation 's despicable incident onto sorts people desperately trying get revolution makes ambulance chasing lawyers seem like harmless last months , souls calling c span issues mundane budget resolutions , saying n't know , feeling going revolution country , get real ! real case study revolution , go video check underground , film made weather underground 70 's even strife back , revolution never come waco supposed spark end times \? tape , interesting see way dance around issue one defining moments , comrades managed blow manufacturing bombs greenwich village problem , one said , caught armed struggle forgot personal safety n't careful course society 's fault , society n't sense worth people , neglect safety current apologists koresh may pick important tips tape ! joe knapp jmk att com
busta vicki enet dec com subject welcome police state usa organization digital equipment corporation lines 115 article c5si9g hx dscomsa desy de , hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) writes article 1993apr20 030234 66491 cc usu edu , slp9k cc usu edu writes xref dscomsa alt activism 6011 talk politics misc path dscomsa ! dxcern ! mcsun ! uunet ! gatech ! howland reston ans net ! agate ! dog ee lbl gov ! hellgate utah edu ! cc usu edu ! slp9k slp9k cc usu edu newsgroups alt activism , talk politics misc subject welcome police state usa message id 1993apr20 030234 66491 cc usu edu date 20 apr 93 03 02 34 mdt references 1993apr20 cc usu edu c5rusq m6m news cso uiuc edu organization utah state university lines 34 article c5rusq m6m news cso uiuc edu , azoghlin uxa cso uiuc edu \( old freshman \( vof \) \) writes critisism easy solutions people would better fbi last months \? firstly , could backed put power freak , like david koresh , kind situation going explode \( pun intended \) koresh wanted martyr government played right hands government n't given attention wanted nothing would ever happened secondly , davidians expecting everything government thought facing apocalypse , perish fire n't scared fbi average , devout followers religion n't work government got frustrated murdered batf left beginning , looked koresh 's personality instead thought , guns bigger guns let 's go get 'em ! botched day one n't first place conveniently ignores murder four batf agents branch davidians unprovoked ambush statement ignores reality bd provoked government allows tinpot dictators set shop declare private state drifted anarchy laws control ownership guns batf good reason beleive violated set obtain legal warrant attempted serve met gunfire rang doorbell damn , phil must seen different tape initial raid happened include grenades attempting storm compound windows honestly say never seen works like paranoid assertion batf fired first unprovoked assault assumes batf death wish expected b anything peacefull citizens would accept search authorized court would turned tank broken door day one think , man batf serving warrant someone feel might illegal automatic weapons expected , state , `the b anything peaceful citizens' could sent one , maybe two agents front door , knock , attempt serve warrant person answering door scenario one , person lets perform search one gets hurt scenario two , person answering door pulls weapon kills officers two dead batf agents instead four , batf knows exactly stand regards bd began formulate plan action arrest responsible without harm innocent people children within compound stupidity attempt serve warant place ludicrously underarmed unprotected police , stupidity attempt serve warrant swat style anyone net cares suggest sure fire method bringing murderes four police officers justice perhaps could hear sure , within law batf uphold law , circumvent fit needs phill hallam baker paul r busta busta vicki enet dec com salem , n h 603 894 one sees one observes , one observes things already mind
smith ctron com \( lawrence c smith \) subject welcome police state usa organization cabletron systems , inc lines 17 distribution world reply smith ctron com nntp posting host ctron com article c5rusq m6m news cso uiuc edu , azoghlin uxa cso uiuc edu \( old freshman \( vof \) \) writes critisism easy solutions people would better fbi last months \? starters , could gone waiting negotiating davidians n't going anywhere , supplies limited large , perhaps , limited simply fired compound without gov't tanks smashing walls , least gov't would guilty used inappropriate level force , would able use meantime continue pressure negotiate , would looked good news six months year sure hell n't look good larry smith \( smith ctron com \) , n't speak cabletron need ask \? liberty freedom whatever want , freedom whatever able
smith ctron com \( lawrence c smith \) subject welcome police state usa organization cabletron systems , inc lines 72 distribution world reply smith ctron com nntp posting host ctron com article c5si9g hx dscomsa desy de , hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) writes conveniently ignores murder four batf agents branch davidians unprovoked ambush demonstrated come trial , real possibility koresh would gotten grounds self defense survivors debacle sworn batf shot first government allows tinpot dictators set shop declare private state drifted anarchy laws control ownership guns batf good reason beleive violated set obtain legal warrant attempted serve met gunfire rang doorbell rang doorbell using concussion grenade ! bloody warrants legal sealed fight started \? koresh declared private state daring gov't go , surrender last year local sheriff served warrant arrest \( opposed batf search warrant , include arrest unless violations found \) calling tell going collect squad car \? n't sound like dictator , sounds like someone knows court battle things might gone differently batf doorbell paranoid assertion batf fired first unprovoked assault assumes batf death wish expected b anything peacefull citizens would accept search authorized court would turned tank broken door day one stupid paranoid assertion , surviving witnesses , batf tanks , aware either batf fbi using yesterday use maximum force first day got four officers killed stupidity attempt serve warant place ludicrously underarmed unprotected police underarmed \? , loaded bear every picture shows wearing bullet proof vests ! using concussion grenades full auto weapons , missing low yield tac nukes \? transparent attempt justification ridiculous amount force used , initially yesterday ashamed anyone net cares suggest sure fire method bringing murderes four police officers justice perhaps could hear sure fire method keep bottled talk death surrender without giving justification looney tune religious stunt phil , 've reading postings months i'm convinced back anything , matter damaging may anyone else 's rights think hurt people n't like 's people attitude set preconditions holocaust , process place country , even , pitiful remains constitution slowing progress n't libertarian issue , others may argue line , strictly constitutional view democratic gov't , fbi batf wrong , wrong , wrong , even reasons trying arrest koresh 100 right anything leads deaths 17 children , nothing else touches stoney heart , wrong matter pushed button god 's sake , man , get morality back larry smith \( smith ctron com \) , n't speak cabletron need ask \? liberty freedom whatever want , freedom whatever able
k044477 hobbes kzoo edu \( jamie r mccarthy \) subject americans sexually repressed \? organization kalamazoo college lines 18 cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes unless , course , problem homosexuality form mental disorder , caused childhood sexual abuse , number recent works suggest number \? zero \? please present number authoritative works suggest homosexuality form mental disorder , caused childhood sexual abuse n't present biased conclusions , based tidbits 've extracted hours' research , conclusions people study mental disease sexual abuse professionally jamie mccarthy internet k044477 kzoo edu applelink j mccarthy
eczcaw mips nott ac uk \( wainwright \) subject new study gay percentage reply eczcaw mips nott ac uk \( wainwright \) organization nottingham university lines 40 article codewks nacjack gen nz , system codewks nacjack gen nz \( wayne mcdougall \) writes brian gab unt edu \( brian stone \) writes someone gay n't mean morals someone heterosexual n't mean look world statistics alone prove criminals default hetero hmmm , statistics \? offer references studies 've seen indicate higher proportion homosexuals prison general population , n't think allows default refer prison normal situation n't seen anything suggests default proportion lower general population \( although seems plausible \) anyway , say , provide references \? arguement \? simply statement fact homosexuals prison mean homosexuals immoral liable commit crime one must remember prison necessarily reflection type people criminals statistics crime \? posting definitive wayne mcdougall keeper list shows better star trek \( tm \) ask auckland festival missions , 18 25 april , 1993 always change mind new evidence available method use \? adda wainwright dim atal llanw ! 8o \) eczcaw mips nott ac uk 8o \) mae sig 'ma ar werth !
gmw0622 rigel tamu edu \( mr grinch \) subject limiting govt \( employment \( concentrate \) organization grinchco lines 45 distribution world nntp posting host rigel tamu edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article newcastle ac uk , chris holt newcastle ac uk \( chris holt \) writes try ensure process deciding whether introduce third parties n't random steve said , examples third parties less ignorant corrupt two primary parties knowledge able help \? course helps , decision involve third parties primary make corrupt ignorant third party n't going say , 're corrupt ignorant , 'll stay pointing corrupt ignorant wo n't help , either wo n't believe wo n't care 's impossible \( least beyond abilities \) formulate rule always tell whether involvement third party would good bad , 's one seems better 've ever heard suggested voluntary good , mandatory bad , third party involve transaction request primary participants n't formulate rule always tell try use knowledge properties situations us , appears trying always apply voluntary good , mandatory bad less optimal , circumstances seriously damaging interesting question characterize circumstances best look , somebody power decide whether third party regulate transactions somebody going either third party argue blue face regulators n't get involved \( fact , people tried \) , wo n't listen fundamental question ask , whose decision whether involve regulators , \? 've answered first question , try move questions regulators involved , , regulations appropriate \? although answer first question , second third taken hands mr grinch
garrett ingres com \( grep friend \) subject bush 's wi summary bye news software vax vms vnews 1 4 b1 keywords organization ask computer systems , ingres product division lines 21 article usenet ins cwru edu , an030 cleveland freenet edu \( b writes previous article , garrett ingres com \( sky already fell \? \) says article 9304161803 aa23713 inet gw 2 pa dec com , blh uiboise idbsu edu \( broward l horne \) writes strongly urge consider moving savings overseas , protected bank accounts , still able \? went post office friday , got passport apps savings already converted bye nothing inevitable mistake whose time garrett johnson come garrett ingres com probability someone watching proportional stupidity action unknown
k044477 hobbes kzoo edu \( jamie r mccarthy \) subject new study gay percentage summary clayton puts foot mouth organization kalamazoo college lines 11 cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes median number sexual partners men 20 39 7 3 n't forget 25 20 partners surprising remember , study includes homosexuals well would make number 15 , right clayton \? jamie mccarthy internet k044477 kzoo edu applelink j mccarthy
mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com \( mark wilson \) subject temper tantrums 1960 's organization ncr engineering manufacturing atlanta atlanta , ga distribution usa lines 10 netcom com phil netcom com \( phil ronzone \) writes religion marxism dead \? said dead seems alive well net mob rule n't prettier merely mob calls government ai n't charity using someone else 's money wilson 's theory relativity go back far enough , 're related mark wilson atlantaga ncr com
garrett ingres com \( grep friend \) subject temper tantrums 1960 's summary bull news software vax vms vnews 1 4 b1 keywords organization ask computer systems , ingres product division distribution usa lines 43 article 1993apr17 midway uchicago edu , dave bsd uchicago edu writes article 1993apr17 oracle us oracle com mfriedma us oracle com \( michael friedman \) writes article 1993apr17 pony ingres com garrett ingres com writes article netcom com , phil netcom com \( phil ronzone \) writes article 1993apr15 pony ingres com garrett ingres com writes dumb shit 's amazing someone limited vocabulary learned use computer n't require take english school went \? crude nature \? i'm forced agree garrett 's need , even hostility mean , 's though garrett asked born dumber bag hammers occasionally annoying , noble tragedy someone knowlege geography pre madonna history thinking political views worth reading something like trying master nuclear physics first note population prc n't gonna fit cambodia unless , 's need keep pounding idiocy plenty post find stop hogging mine first kind ranting annoyed , 's rather entertaining kinds posts n't require facts , logic , even sense 's kind like 10 year old kids go play everyone net simple minded guys seem dave griffith , information resources , university chicago , biological sciences division dave delphi bsd uchicago edu brain damage chromosome damage nothing inevitable mistake whose time garrett johnson come garrett ingres com probability someone watching proportional stupidity action unknown
pyotr halcyon com \( peter hampe \) subject suffer little children , welcome police state usa organization northwest nexus inc lines 38 nntp posting host nwfocus wa com azoghlin uxa cso uiuc edu \( old freshman \( vof \) \) writes critisism easy solutions people would better fbi last months \? lightly track , still relevant crying children \? know hardwired consider future race , people concerned children \? branch davidians , options die submit evil tm children 's souls lost due brain washing ungodly state \( put terms netter might grasp considered equivalent putting jesse charge nea mtv \) remembering 1983 supreme court struck freedom conscience \( irs vs bob jones et al \) 's next \? religion belief system government approved \? jim jones numerous awards state moved \? obviously state regulation would stopped tragedy chus pyotr p mormons n't always saints , go long way left alone always pyotr halcyon com sometimes pyotr filipivich , sometimes owl optimist bagpiper beeper
pyotr halcyon com \( peter hampe \) subject welcome police state usa organization northwest nexus inc lines 46 nntp posting host nwfocus wa com hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) writes government allows tinpot dictators set shop declare private state drifted anarchy laws control ownership guns batf good reason beleive violated set obtain legal warrant attempted serve met gunfire rang doorbell course , otherwise would n't staged raid first place paranoid assertion batf fired first unprovoked assault assumes batf death wish expected b anything peacefull citizens would accept search authorized court would turned tank broken door day one stupidity attempt serve warant place ludicrously underarmed unprotected police anyone net cares suggest sure fire method bringing murderes four police officers justice perhaps could hear seems bit redundant stupidity batf mindset 'we 're washington know better execute plan storm compound knock locals gullible , cares served knocking door old fashioned , dated method law enforcement anyway gotta latest technology , know \? sweet baby n't clown ever read dealing paranoids \? chus pyotr phill hallam baker pyotr halcyon com sometimes pyotr filipivich , sometimes owl optimist bagpiper beeper
jpr1 ns1 cc lehigh edu \( james p reynolds \) subject get \( ever learn \? \) organization lehigh university lines 135 article cellar org , techie cellar org \( william bacon \) writes refuse learn history present pointing canada 's vaunted socialized medical care program , contends failing even cost catching angry taxpayers notes americans n't go canada elsewhere medical care 's canadians others come united states duplicate n't work well countries \? world 's best medical care let 's mess hillary clinton 's plans socialized medicine john f , national president john society says , world 's best medical care , hardly believe 's referring system 1 costs us 14 percent gdp , n't single country industrialized world spends 10 percent 2 leaves 37 million us coverage , even though systems industrialized world cover virtually everyone 3 yet , americans rank near bottom list terms life expectancy , childhood immunization rate , infant mortality , many diseases 4 pay , average , 1000 mris \( put perspective , cost 177 japan \) 5 average us company spends 2500 dollars year per employee health benefits seven hundred 1500 range everywhere else anyone say system best world \? thing usa health care system good well insured patients treatment care outrageously private system insurers paperwork bloated inefficient sucks 100 billion dollars year money every sector society individuals , government , industry 800 billion dollars americans threw pit health care costs last year , consumer 's union estimated least 200 billion thrown away overpriced , useless , even downright harmful tests procedures , bureaucratic , regulated insurance system world 1200 different private insurers usa private competition stimulate efficient paperwork \? ask doctor 's hire full time clerk deal ! competition among hospitals driving costs , competition among hospitals doctors patients encouraged hospitals traffic expensive equipment spending millions expensive machines dubious value spend 80 percent day idle n't idea world 's best health care system competition among specialists driving perform dangerous expensive procedures marginally helpful i'm especially thinking heart surgery women 's like cesarean section sound like world 's best health care system \? ever notice , every time someone tries bring real change health care , start bashing canada 's system \? first , hillary clinton advocating another canadian system think 's made abundantly clear news last couple months john f get idea , anyway \? let 's say 're canadian living small town near usa border child needs complicated procedure available city hospitals nearest canadian cities 6 hours west 20 hours east , 's american city one hour south way going go \? american system best world , convenience \? still amazes people ca n't seem see black white health care reform million different ways system 's choice total government control total private control wish people screaming socialized medicine every time wants change current syste would inform health care issues current system sucks want keep providers private n't change fact never able deal deficit n't reform health care system purely private health care without government intervention n't work hillary clinton thinking providers insurers scream socialized medicine programs \? n't even know 're talking \? ever see clinton 's graphs projected deficit versus year rest decade \? notice line falls , starts increasing \? \? 'll give one wild guess component spending overwhelm us n't something get current health care system cancer killing economic well costs still rising 10 percent year even americans tens millions go without , forced managed care programs , certainly pretty socialized already ask couple months ago posted message asking hillary bashers please come forward present \( , straight talk \) would set keeping costs n't get single answer thing keep hearing organizations press releases filled evasive like give health care back people expect without serious reforms \? current system would change would help \? anyone read news , live system , see faults \? deal deficit , cities , educational system , , aids , modernizing industry , etc n't quit throwing away money could used solve problems \? america needs health care reform n't sit hillary bash , inform ! jim reynolds james p reynolds \( 's jim \) jpr1 lehigh edu
strom watson ibm com \( rob strom \) subject waco survivors 1715 19 april disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host stockholm watson ibm com organization ibm research lines 84 article c5segz mwr dscomsa desy de , hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) writes order reject word fbi batf neccessary beleive words man murdered 17 children ordered suicide murder 80 followers according account given batf attempted serve warrant upon koresh ranch met gunfire deliberate attempt murder koresh gun supporter claim batf started shooting simply stand aft gone start shooting would gone heavier grade weaponry standard issue handguns practical purposes unarmed , b followers automatic weapons people want gun control must obviously discount entire government story simply rationalisation enough simply dismiss government incompetent would require come solution instead come government conspiracy theory whereby government decided set murder 80 people set sort scare alow get gun control legislation must object characterization opposed government 's handling waco situation gun supporters argument tries paint batf critics right wing gun nuts , mixes two issues one batf fbi critics , yet liberal anti gun happen believe everyone civil rights , even religious crazies 're human beings , nest wasps 're trying exterminate batf created crisis situation way handled original raid well known koresh regularly went jogging outside property could served search warrant could arrested refused comply instead officers armed grenades invaded property escalated shooting war tragic deaths sides first two mistakes bad judgment asking knock warrant , bad probably illegal way already unwise warrant served point , situation escalated described armed standoff hostage crisis 's government started covering traces , sealing warrant , reported history incident , etc things already building disaster government could simply closed supply routes waited according janet reno , option never seriously considered , supposedly agents frustrated , supposedly backups , felt go 's entirely possible koresh responsible fire 's , deserves blame deaths people compound government 's hands far clean first raid demonstrated bad judgment plus contempt 4th amendment motivations second raid unbelievable coverup events first raid undermines credibility anything thereafter biased fbi word happened please let 's turn pro gun vs anti gun discussion anti gun people believe gun owners deserve get assaulted armed government agents koresh 's civil rights exist whether guns legal , illegal , illegal legal , whatever ! rob strom , strom watson ibm com , \( 914 \) 784 ibm research , 30 saw mill river road , p box 704 , heights , ny
as010b uhura cc rochester edu \( tree schnopia \) subject new study gay percentage organization university rochester rochester , new york lines 46 nntp posting host uhura cc rochester edu optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes article 1993apr16 galileo cc rochester edu , as010b uhura cc rochester edu \( tree schnopia \) writes purpose post \? show mindless obsession statistics , incredibly flawed system reasoning , repellent hatemonger agenda , purpose accomplished panache \( \) get clue \( b \) get life \( c \) get face i'm bi andrew simchik schnopia ! yes rest homosexual community pass laws impose moral codes , requiring hire , rent , otherwise associate homosexual , yes , face homosexuals stop trying impose morals , face gosh , associate heterosexuals every day ! means 've imposed moral codes , n't \? fortunately , taken time get know members het community discovered , hey ! really evil concept reality ! 've got clues \( \) i'm working pass laws \( b \) morals morals imagine value freedom value freedom , must necessarily accept laws important protect , discriminate one area 're open discriminate rest \( c \) suggest learning bit gays , lesbians , bis post kind drivel 's obvious n't clue 're talking clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent , members sex , right \? live hypocrisy \? drewcifer bi andrew simchik schnopia ! as010b uhura cc rochester edu treewater words n't made cowards happy rhodes
as010b uhura cc rochester edu \( tree schnopia \) subject new study gay percentage organization university rochester rochester , new york lines 26 nntp posting host uhura cc rochester edu optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes article f3p murdoch acc virginia edu , gsh7w fermi clas virginia edu \( greg hennessy \) writes article philc5n6d5 mk3 netcom com phil netcom com \( phil ronzone \) writes tells something fascist politics practiced ah , ending discrimination fascism greg hennessy , university virginia force people associate others , yes 're associate fascism ! n't associate anyone go live cave wo n't miss drewcifer bi andrew simchik schnopia ! as010b uhura cc rochester edu treewater words n't made cowards happy rhodes
mvp netcom com \( mike van pelt \) subject race violence organization netcom online communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) distribution usa lines 31 article 1993apr18 magnus acs ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu \( aaron c \) writes basically , think tendency non african americans believe something wrong us exists non african americans n't want deal society deeply biased african americans , 80 problem something terribly wrong , however , culture condemns , attacks , often kills members attempt get education mother elementary school teacher , tells african american frustrated tears fact african american child attempts well school get education accused peers trying white , beaten , , tormented goes beyond passing grade test earning beating mother 's school , one promising young students , happened african american , throat cut one young thugs nobody buys culture hope anything poor thug dead , regardless color changed culture culture ca n't changed , african american kids willing separate must separated murderous thugs whatever color otherwise , future bright young african american girls wanted doctors end dead school bus let 's face , comes utilities , microsoft mike van pelt performed well savings loan mvp netcom com guys , remember , put backup restore mvp com mention hard disk lincoln spector
sys1 exnet co uk \( xavier gallagher \) subject concentrate child molesters \? organization exnet systems ltd public access news , london , uk lines 33 article 15441 optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes article c5og5h 4de exnet co uk , sys1 exnet co uk \( xavier gallagher \) writes article optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes well , obvious point make would straight men fuck like rabbits oppertunity presented \? reckon man would go wildly promiscuous presented huge variety willing partners question , suppose , says lot screwed cramer instance telling well everyone else n't ever cafe restaurant stuffed full goodies yet one item , little different , new texture new taste , presented somehow found space maybe n't , \? widely reported reckon applies sex clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! xavier clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! xavier
jarthur claremont edu \( william everett \) subject top ten comments overheard secret service lounge organization harvey mudd college , claremont , ca 91711 lines 43 article access digex net access digex com \( carl aron \) writes word liberal definitely different connotation written ask michael yeah , republicans defined mean spends money things n't make rich buddies richer something reasoned intelligent say post rant rave save maybe mean liberals believe tax spend rather borrow spend true cutting spending taxes 's matter debate succesful last presidents finally , means open minded things want open minded hear , 've noticed far often liberals anyone else n't agree close minded look 's talking suggest take look post see nothing unfair unsubstantiated generalizations suggests author anything open minded next time feel like posting something like save somebody cares carl william everett opinions mine mudd college ca n't insane fear socialism throws headlong arms despotism , insane fear throws liberals headlong arms socialism , 1993
kevin msai com \( kevin smith \) subject abolish selective service organization mitsubishi semiconductor america , inc , durham , n c lines 20 nntp posting host pluto msai com selfish little bastard afraid might sacrafice somthing country someone approve lone \? bad immoral people like current president n't idea country still exists 200 years n't consider ideas selfish consider rational agree body post , please reconsider phrasing think ideas selfish rational , n't give selfishness bad rap would moral reason draft draft ultimate mindlessly serving fellow man thought importance self opinions expressed herein necessarily shared employer came viewing prime time sit
pdb059 ipl jpl nasa gov \( paul bartholomew \) subject americans sexually repressed \? organization jet propulsion laboratory lines 45 distribution world nntp posting host kilimanjaro jpl nasa gov article optilink com , cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) wrote unless , course , problem homosexuality form mental disorder , caused childhood sexual abuse , number recent works suggest mr cramer , going stop blatant lies \? true , know damned well 's true none research supports mental health expert taken position opinion backed research knowledge according one survey , done san francisco , number heterosexual men molested children order 5 number homosexual men molested children order 8 source book sexual abuse children david \( sorry , title escapes \) conclusions drawn none homosexuals would stop using government impose morality others \( antidiscrimination laws \) leave children alone , would n't care least private get liberal notion proper role government tell peaceful people live , choice continue point homosexuality alternative lifestyle , sickness oh , definitely choice realize , course , approaching two year anniversary crusade planning celebrating two years lies \? incidentally , still waiting crusade african americans , women , minorities also want impose morality others , also want government tell peaceful people live therefore , really choice , continue point woman african american lifestyle , sickness 's bullshit , mr cramer bullshit began crusade 's still bullshit continually amazed depths 'll stoop carry deliberate attack paul bartholomew pdb059 ipl jpl nasa gov
hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) subject waco survivors 1715 19 april lines 106 reply hallam zeus02 desy de organization desydeutsches elektronen synchrotron , experiment zeus bei hera article apm hpopdlau pwd hp com , apm hpopdlau pwd hp com \( andrew merritt \) writes path dscomsa ! dxcern ! mcsun ! uknet ! pipex ! uunet ! think com ! sdd hp com ! hpscit sc hp com ! apm apm hpopdlau pwd hp com \( andrew merritt \) article 1993apr19 1 vms ocom okstate edu chorley vms ocom okstate edu writes note insufficient emotion amongst five survivors waco debacle , two brits aussie anglo saxon persona really n't lend martyrdom spurious messiah n't see draw conclusion around 20 80 inside buildings british \( one quarter \) two eight \( latest count heard \) survivors british \( one quarter \) anyhow , british n't equate anglo saxon exactly trying say \? fire engines within mile compound \? gun loonies firing vehicles 50mm range 3000 meters next question problem course laws allow bunch raving nutters collect huge stack arms first place sequence events meant really option attempt sort breakthrough via intervention fbi stomach could mounted commando type raid attempted save children shooting adults really win situation koresh plenty opportunity give stand trial murder 4 atf officers instead ordered murder children order reject word fbi batf neccessary beleive words man murdered 17 children ordered suicide murder 80 followers according account given batf attempted serve warrant upon koresh ranch met gunfire deliberate attempt murder koresh gun supporter claim batf started shooting simply stand aft gone start shooting would gone heavier grade weaponry standard issue handguns practical purposes unarmed , b followers automatic weapons b seige could allowed go indefinitely b quite capable commiting mass suicide murdering children time commando assault likely action could achieved objective , would risky , orders harder iranian embassy seige airplanes embassies designed defense attack ranch apocalypse 6 terrorists far easier without casualties 80 allowing siege go option either , besides serious risk koresh would proclaim armageddon moment question difficulties keeping team standby prolonged period longer siege went mentally prepared koresh followers would prolonged siege rather go prematurely mistake probably go soon think better way getting children \? 100 certain way \? people want gun control must obviously discount entire government story simply rationalisation enough simply dismiss government incompetent would require come solution instead come government conspiracy theory whereby government decided set murder 80 people set sort scare alow get gun control legislation conspiracy theory assumes batf deliberately got 4 agents killed fbi etc actually enjoy sitting middle texas shot religious nutters still conspiracy theory comforting , allows pretend waco proves nothing except incompetent government resolving hostage crisis govt world ever faced comparable situation , quite probably manner could peacefully resolved blame rest fbi , rests fact koresh allowed get far , particular person tipped b advance murder 4 atf agents 17 children conscience large number people us predict end society preach salvation armed security fact people pose threat society first place next waco may religious nutters political movement splinter group klux klan taking black area example holding several hundred children hostage possible solution situations work prevent arising government world faced situation government allowed high power weaponry become avaliable little hitler would messiah set dictator little empire phill hallam baker
visser convex com \( lance visser \) subject welcome police state usa nntp posting host dhostwo convex com organization engineering , convex computer corp , richardson , tx , usa x disclaimer message written user convex computer corp opinions expressed user necessarily convex lines 39 c5rusq m6m news cso uiuc edu azoghlin uxa cso uiuc edu \( old freshman \( vof \) \) writes critisism easy solutions people would better fbi last months \? seige began surround place razor wire let sit daily press conferences , best keep things press things get miserable inside , one two things going happen 1 people start coming 2 commit suicide mass point thing remember \( 2 \) hysterical situations play hands leader picked course much easier people something like suicide gas coming bullets air let hungry miserable longer longer probably effective possiblity would kill point would bother least alter tactics people going take lives , best probably prevent giving opportunity excuse fbi attorney general really concerned sanitation welfare children inside , would turned water compound pressure tactic first place
borden head cfa harvard edu \( dave borden \) subject drug use policy japan organization smithsonian astrophysical observatory , cambridge , , usa lines 13 anyone knowledgeable drug issues japan \? i'm interested knowing japan ever problem drugs , dealt 've heard , undocumented , japan years ago used heavy legal penalties end serious heroin problem 'd like know sides story anyone recall problem \? laws time relating drug use , drug dealing , drug trafficking \? laws \? anti drug measures , like education treatment japan used \? drugs regarded japanese people \? effective anti drug measures japan \? thanks help david borden borden m5 harvard edu
kaldis romulus rutgers edu \( theodore kaldis \) subject new study gay percentage organization rutgers univ , new brunswick , n j lines 31 article optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes brandeis mean , many people actually care many people gay \( long know find avoid want \) \? n't n't care , much effort put promoting 10 lie \? important scare politicians obedience would n't worry much , though starting find politically homosexuals really colorado boycott , slick willie effectively prevented implementing military policy wrt homosexuals members party , new study casts large shadow doubt claims large numbers , coming saturday going wind tremendous egg face , submit , perhaps 35 , 000 queers show washington promising crowds millions ones look like act queer nation , guy working next 's really going play middle america pretty soon find retreating back closet belong views expressed herein theodore kaldis seriously kaldis remus rutgers edu believe major university ! rutgers ! remus rutgers edu ! kaldis would hold views \? \? \?
halat panther bears \( jim halat \) subject nc vs hunt \( marine gay bashing wilmington nc \) verdict reply halat panther bears \( jim halat \) distribution usa lines 41 article 1993apr17 bsu ucs 00cmmiller leo bsuvc bsu edu writes fact bunch cops putting lives line day day afraid hell large black guy took large amount punishment refused submit \? oh yeah , h start video king got prone postion charge cops \? sorry , video cuts sit watch start even rodney king come car waving gun managed disarm , police still right right beat senseless way ground ca n't handle jobs , relieved additionally , anna new york times said best \( paraphrase \) many people bring happened shown tape 's came 80 's , ronald reagan , george bush , racism , jim halat
kkopp uxh cso uiuc edu \( koppenhoefer kyle cramm \) subject get \( ever learn \? \) organization university illinois urbana lines 42 jpr1 ns1 cc lehigh edu \( james p reynolds \) writes get current health care system cancer killing economic well costs still rising 10 percent year even americans tens millions go without , forced managed care programs , certainly pretty socialized already ask couple months ago posted message asking hillary bashers please come forward present \( , straight talk \) would set keeping costs n't get single answer first thing would would medicare ! primary reason health care costs going cover people currently programs , would sell coverage blocks insurance companies private companies would bid get large blocks people , prices would go get away strong federal control health care , would pass control states everyone always spewing forth wonderful hawaii well , giving states incentive try plans would try implement far reaching federal program program cover americans , surest way fail ! anyone read news , live system , see faults \? deal deficit , cities , educational system , , aids , modernizing industry , etc n't quit throwing away money could used solve problems \? one sure way stop throwing money away stop giving much federal government federal taxes slashed , state taxes increased strong central government always fails give power back states counties cities , belongs america needs health care reform n't sit hillary bash , inform ! inform , want hillary bash
gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) subject eight myths national health insurance \( pt ii \) nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) organization phds hall lines 201 v140pxgt ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( daniel b case \) writes gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) writes v140pxgt ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( daniel b case \) writes gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) writes okay , doctors willingly testify malpractice cases go court \( obviously , absolutely essential prove malpractice \) \? used impossible get doctors \( possible advantage us system wo n't hear ama \) doctors' monopoly exactly u , powerful dictate insurance payment rates , n't know answer one anecdotally , friends md 's \( including main buds high school \) talk hard turn state 's witness someone else direct experience , though also , circumstances may sue insurance plan people , , sue health insurance companies time heard guy alberta came rare eye disease take repeated trips seattle get treated cost family something like 6000 province , years later , still 500 well , american private insurance plans cover travel expenses \? \? \? since public insurance plans publicly accountable , one raise stink media try extort benefits beyond one entitled \( hey , alberta 's fault lives \) lived , wy private insurance would 've told go hell travel expenses 's hmo would kept quiet let go blind well , yeah , tell us national defense medical centre outside ottawa serves purpose bethesda naval hospital since hospitals provide everything , maybe stuff others n't \? \( ottawa 's population quarter million , include surrounding counties \) point something necessarily remain become , detriment mission n't think shown dmc problem , system annual budgets approved government , keep political considerations medical decisions \? bet 're mp mpp , good friends one , 're put hospital 's urgent care list matter minor problem ok unless 're someone gets bumped list people influence get way system , american european 's golden rule gold makes rules \( extent affect system \? urgent care list necessary first place \? 's worth thinking 's regular practice hospital figure needs get facilities n't americans arrange advance operations \? think two standards applied , canada ca n't give beverly hills style treatment everybody 's big brother list 's like calling around town table dinner yeah , private nonprofit foundations make money somehow , especially hospital business yes , tories ottawa trying make rather hope bigger grant feds province next time around whether 's using mop couple weeks longer even selling services americans \( remember , system cash based since health care infrastructure except specialties require larger populations generate business , \? alternative closing unused wards business \) whether canadians would thrilled prospect health services toward americans , would willing pay , another issue entirely \) , must noted said partly grants province getting smaller grants , need attract foreigners make difference \? answered question private nonprofit foundations make money somehow , think 's time acted like private hospitals personally , i'm fed canadian socialists trying tell everyone health care free actually buying insurance \( 's one , bob rae ! ! \) gdp figures combined public private expenditures total , compiled use methods oecd yield 13 14 figure u n't us figures include dentistry canadian one \( recently , anyway \) n't \? since always evaluated oecd style , n't see remember , oecd counts private public funds , canada like france germany , 30 health care spending private funds \( e , basic health insurance money \) happens health care systems financially collapse \? collecting premiums i'm advocate copayments like french system well , spend take , go bankrupt 's simple provincial insurance systems find paying get revenue , wo n't able pay everybody 's primary care yes , infrastructure everybody able continue using rate minor copayments flush abusers remember system insurance policy costs n't rising fast enough ensure adequate copayments deductibles last year , quebec 's user fee proposal came number 5 necessary hike could done rather give raise 's contract time yet , far tell upi clarinet even new reform party , conservatives mildly libertarian faction , holds public health insurance people reminded 's free \( average canadian european naive american counterparts issues like \) mention copayments anywhere seen cutting public spending place , bringing back death penalty , little elected know , pete 's sake , live right border know canadian system n't socialized medicine \( unlike britain 's nhs \) sorry ! \( 's even run people buffalo michigan n't know point , means money runs low plan , 're luck unless afford yeah , 'd lot lead time health care crisis would preclude provincial governments \( bad heck , ndp cleaning spending mess made conservatives saskatchewan embarassing ! \) irresponsible , still health insurance important 's thing inspire open rebellion violent insurrection outside hockey rink right , attempts get system users learn good habits treated like cod liver oil would private insurers take slack \? 'd obligation course , could eventually make money , say true , 'd loathe \( practice handling basic services , \) companies providing extra insurance subsidiaries american companies , parents provide full insurance regardless , firms north easily turn cable tv see well american firms involved basic coverage private firms making much money gotten rid basic coverage run around selves back cooperation providing extras people deserve yeah , eventually 's going create kind two tiered effect noticeable , like britain americans fearful single tier system \( seriously , areas sufficient population two tiered system like french health policy prof , g shea , cited studies nejm indicate population 500 , 000 necessary adequate competition canada , four cities west great lakes population larger anyways , numbers show costs held u barring future like crisis , sudden spending unlikely fact , health allocation one well behaved sectors spending north talk bankruptcy talk radio fodder far away border provinces hit fiscal rough spots cut back , things private insurers offer seem less less like luxuries gap noticeable wo n't overnight , something like would force canada system like french one 's bad thing , change minimal \( e , add copayments frustrate socialists hey , 's free ! \) gld je souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go ! ! ! gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
pjs269 tijc02 uucp \( paul schmidt \) subject limiting govt \( employment \( concentrate \) organization advocates self government davy crockett chapter x newsreader tin 1 1 pl4 lines 22 steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) writes would seem society failed government would ideal setting libertarian ideals implemented suppose never seems occur \? advances freedom made past divine right king concept questioned one time may used argument , n't come ancestors courage throw old system said one man ruling many necessary decent , wholesome society concept slavery questioned ancestors courage question practice existed thousands years idea one man owning another necessary decent , wholesome society \? libertarians question necessity necessary many people rule many others decent , wholesome society \? paul schmidt advocates self government , davy crockett chapter president 706 judith drive , johnson city , tn , \( 615 \) 283 , uunet ! tijc02 ! pjs269 freedom seems unleashed creative energies people leads ever higher levels income social progress u n report
fox graphics cs nyu edu \( david fox \) subject bill targets pension funds liberation reply mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com 's message mon , 19 apr 1993 17 14 37 gmt nntp posting host graphics cs nyu edu organization courant institute mathematical sciences ncratl atlantaga ncr com lines 24 article ncratl atlantaga ncr com mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com \( mark wilson \) writes master cna tek com mikeq freddy cna tek com \( mike quigley \) writes excerpts insight magazine , march 15 , 1993 paranoia part deleted n't insight magazine published \? n't remember article removed ca n't comment comment though response really believe wrote sufficient refute article \? facts addition opinion \? one time chase every rumor gets printed national enquirer whatever point wait see assertions \( rather bizarre \) original post way perhaps recent posts rather bizarre original poster speak david
goykhman apollo hp com \( red herring \) subject welcome police state usa nntp posting host dzoo ch apollo hp com organization hewlett packard company , chelmsford , lines 14 article c5rusq m6m news cso uiuc edu azoghlin uxa cso uiuc edu \( old freshman \( vof \) \) writes critisism easy solutions people would better fbi last months \? anything bill clinton reno started whole first place disclaimer opinions expressed mine , employer 's
apg andersen com \( scott \) subject waco burnout organization andersen consulting cstar lines 19 distribution usa nntp posting host 144 36 14 91 visser convex com \( lance visser \) writes 1993apr19 edu jerry edu \( jerry stratton \) writes happen seems trying get children idea ramming compound tank pouring tear gas supposed send mothers fleeing outside children reliance put women 's instinct official explanation govt action republican administration , would generate complaints \? \( opposed complaints action \) spending programs , ' taxes , ' people say need dictionary \? dan quayle 2 19 93 employer responsible anything may appear
troy cc bellcore com \( , robert \) subject welcome police state usa organization bellcore , livingston , nj lines 12 article c5rusq m6m news cso uiuc edu azoghlin uxa cso uiuc edu \( old freshman \( vof \) \) writes critisism easy solutions people would better fbi last months \? tell everyone hell first place \? knew , 'd much better position judge actions , speculate develop nice conspiracy police state stories bob
cleveland freenet edu \( bill e jones \) subject race violence organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 2 nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu
terminus com \( richard chandler \) subject new study gay percentage organization utexas mail news gateway lines 13 nntp posting host cs utexas edu elf halcyon com \( elf sternberg \) thank playing , obviously reading material presented according report 've got hands , newsweek article \( reported 2 3 percent population gay \) used criteria heterosexual contact past year time , university denver study points , quite dramatically , 60 self identifying gay men form heterosexual contact past year think big mistake study must one sexual contact kind previous year , counted heterosexual even n't intend way , 's figures used
mst4298 rigel tamu edu \( mitchell todd \) subject welcome police state usa organization grinchco lines 26 distribution world nntp posting host rigel tamu edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article 1993apr20 udel edu , carroll hercules cis udel edu \( mark c carroll \) writes wait second , 're ignoring major facts attempt simply serve warrant batf knock warrant initial firefight began batf threw concussion grenades building \( batf admits ! \) batf say \? everything 've seen batf , official version dissident statements batf officers conducted raid claims davidians shooting agents long within grenade range also , warrant sealed , know 'no \? mitchell todd mst4298 zeus ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' tamu edu ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' '
huey udel edu \( john berryhill , ph \) subject earth also pollutes nntp posting host huey udel edu organization little scraps paper , mostly lines 13 people die natural causes , hear things like murder war mother nature killing people time fact , people die natural causes due conscious actions people , 's murders \? john berryhill
evansmp uhura aston ac uk \( mark evans \) subject americans sexually repressed \? nntp posting host uhura organization aston university x newsreader tin version 1 1 lines 22 jamie r mccarthy \( k044477 hobbes kzoo edu \) wrote cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes unless , course , problem homosexuality form mental disorder , caused childhood sexual abuse , number recent works suggest number \? zero \? time heard mention mechanism respect female homosexuality resulting heterosexual childhood abuse \( one several factors affecting person \) mr cramer appears concentrate male homosexuality doubt mind mark evans evansmp uhura aston ac uk \( 44 \) 21 429 9199 \( home \) evansmp cs aston ac uk \( 44 \) 21 359 6531 \( office \)
rlglende netcom com \( robert lewis glendenning \) subject welcome police state usa organization netcom online communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 66 article c5si9g hx dscomsa desy de hallam zeus02 desy de writes conveniently ignores murder four batf agents branch davidians unprovoked ambush government allows tinpot dictators set shop declare private state drifted anarchy laws control ownership guns batf good reason beleive violated set obtain legal warrant attempted serve met gunfire rang doorbell paranoid assertion batf fired first unprovoked assault assumes batf death wish expected b anything peacefull citizens would accept search authorized court would turned tank broken door day one , approve batf launching 100 person raid , complete flack jackets , men hidden horse trailers , stun grenades , semi auto weapons peaceful citizens \? would also accept search court \? still proof branch davidians illegal weapons nothing else jurisdiction batf , unless thought still , smoking cigarettes automatic firearms violation tax matter ! n't serve knock warrants someone 50 cal n't necessary \( ca n't flush machine gun toilet , know \) , n't smart \( right , got good chance getting blown away wrong , n't done \) stupidity attempt serve warant place ludicrously underarmed unprotected police stupidity indeed related stupidity may attempt serve warrant ludicrously armed , protected confident gestapo escalation n't automatically brilliant tax matter ! flush toilet ! need knock warrants everything actually , imho nothing justifies , another argument anyone net cares suggest sure fire method bringing murderes four police officers justice perhaps could hear n't murder police officers probable cause arrest murder perhaps us citizens innocent proven guilty also n't killing batf screwed real bad phill hallam baker lew lew glendenning rlglende netcom com perspective worth 80 iq points niels bohr \( somebody like \)
visser convex com \( lance visser \) subject welcome police state usa nntp posting host dhostwo convex com organization engineering , convex computer corp , richardson , tx , usa x disclaimer message written user convex computer corp opinions expressed user necessarily convex lines 84 c5si9g hx dscomsa desy de hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) writes article 1993apr20 030234 66491 cc usu edu , slp9k cc usu edu writes xref dscomsa alt activism 6011 talk politics misc path dscomsa ! dxcern ! mcsun ! uunet ! gatech ! howland reston ans net ! agate ! dog ee lbl gov ! hellgate utah edu ! cc usu edu ! slp9k slp9k cc usu edu newsgroups alt activism , talk politics misc subject welcome police state usa message id 1993apr20 030234 66491 cc usu edu date 20 apr 93 03 02 34 mdt references 1993apr20 cc usu edu c5rusq m6m news cso uiuc edu organization utah state university lines 34 article c5rusq m6m news cso uiuc edu , azoghlin uxa cso uiuc edu \( old freshman \( vof \) \) writes critisism easy solutions people would better fbi last months \? firstly , could backed put power freak , like david koresh , kind situation going explode \( pun intended \) koresh wanted martyr government played right hands government n't given attention wanted nothing would ever happened secondly , davidians expecting everything government thought facing apocalypse , perish fire n't scared fbi average , devout followers religion n't work government got frustrated murdered batf left beginning , looked koresh 's personality instead thought , guns bigger guns let 's go get 'em ! botched day one n't first place conveniently ignores murder four batf agents branch davidians unprovoked ambush government allows tinpot dictators set shop declare private state drifted anarchy laws control ownership guns batf good reason beleive violated set obtain legal warrant attempted serve met gunfire rang doorbell paranoid assertion batf fired first unprovoked assault assumes batf death wish expected b anything peacefull citizens would accept search authorized court would turned tank broken door day one search knock warrent meaning scene see bunch men guns storming compound grenades terms search warrent secret batf yet even reveal stupidity attempt serve warant place ludicrously underarmed unprotected police serve warrent , basically attacked compound expected surrender concussion grenades know look death injury toll inflicted sides first battle difficult believe either side superiority weapons anyone net cares suggest sure fire method bringing murderes four police officers justice perhaps could hear
demon desire wright edu \( boomer \) subject questions janet reno organization acme products lines 32 questions janet reno n't think generals place law enforcement \? atf fbi proof koresh child molester child abuser wife abuser sexual deviant \( crime 50 states , yet \) well illegally modify weapons n't simply arrested one morning \? allegations child wife sex crimes come branch davidians repelled initial assualt \? became necessary david koresh \? feel responsible deaths 80 people \? many would alive day koresh arrested outside compound \? inquiring minds want know although janet installed siege began , purge justice dept leaves people charge brett 's nothing passionate vested interest disguised intellectual conviction sean o'casey white plague frank herbert
demon desire wright edu \( boomer \) subject clinton \? \? \? distribution world organization acme products lines 10 article uta fi , cs uta fi \( francis \) writes would like know clintons background anglo saxon , irish , italian hispanic etc 's 1 2 liar , 1 2 cheat 1 2 demagogue brett 's nothing passionate vested interest disguised intellectual conviction sean o'casey white plague frank herbert
demon desire wright edu \( boomer \) subject f cus health big secret organization acme products lines 24 summary blue cross government health care article poly math cor , harelb math cornell edu writes matter logic government run systems inefficient , fact highly private sector system us vastly inefficient therefore irrelevant proof entire private sector vastly inefficient \? , example , relevance blue cross massachusetts employs people , employed canada 's health programs , insure 10 times many people blue cross government health insurance provider oops ads z magazine deleted save earth brett 's nothing passionate vested interest disguised intellectual conviction sean o'casey white plague frank herbert
sys1 exnet co uk \( xavier gallagher \) subject concentrate child molesters \? organization exnet systems ltd public access news , london , uk lines 40 article optilink com walsh optilink com \( mark walsh \) writes article c5og5h 4de exnet co uk , sys1 exnet co uk \( xavier gallagher \) writes well , obvious point make would straight men fuck like rabbits oppertunity presented \? reckon man would go wildly promiscuous presented huge variety willing partners true , gays straights except sexual preference , would imagine gays would much less sex straights available pool dates less one tenth straights somebody correct \( flame \) please ! miss point lot negotiation needed convince women sex big women free sex many women know would almost anything rather known , whore men however status attached able fuck constantly gay men , partners prove status constant going get situation lot sex difference het sex valuable commodity gay sex virtually unlimited due men straights suffer bottle neck women concerned , gay men experience bottle neck go excess mark walsh \( walsh optilink \) uucp uunet ! optilink ! walsh xavier
dsh eceyv ncsu edu \( doug holtsinger \) subject janet reno killed waco children organization ncsu distribution na lines 19 janet reno killed waco children responsible deaths resign immediately understood david koresh madman would anything children became provoked warning signs ignored provoked koresh killing children situation waco similar hostage situation madman holding gun head innocent person situation , person provokes madman causes pull gun 's trigger responsible death hostage janet reno blindly stumbled basically threw tear gas container madman hoping would release hostage 's surprise madman would pull trigger response kind provocation doug holtsinger
clinton hq campaign92 org \( white house \) subject clinton presidential statement waco organization mit artificial intelligence lab lines 29 nntp posting host life ai mit edu white house office press secretary immediate release april 19 , 1993 statement president clinton deeply saddened loss life waco today thoughts prayers families david koresh 's victims law enforcement agencies involved waco siege recommended course action pursued today attorney general informed analysis judgment recommended proceed today 's action given risks maintaining previous policy indefinitely told attorney general thought right , stand decision
wolfe wolves durham nc us \( g wolfe woodbury \) subject nc vs hunt \( marine gay bashing wilmington nc \) verdict organization red wolfe wolves den lines 38 x md4 signature wdstarr athena mit edu \( william december starr \) writes article 1993apr14 lynx dac northeastern edu , tfarrell lynx dac northeastern edu \( thomas farrell \) said good case \? f king good case \? defense lawyer asked victim questions like kind sexual participate \? think made good case \? \? \? \? \? speaking someone 's six weeks 6 , 900 tuition bill away becoming unemployed law degree , 'd really like see transcript trial 'd especially like know happened immediately defense attorney asked question \( assuming reports accurate i'm accusing tom farrell making anything , sort case garbled misquotes , false rumors urban legends like \) 'd nice think prosecutor objected \( irrelevant , prejudicial , inflammatory take pick \) judge upheld objection watched televised trial , answer statements made defense atty , prosecutor object , judge tended sustain ones obviously falling self incrimination type objection quite bit meta discussion trial use graphic language , folks asking judge wanted hear exact language practically every time defense tried get plaintiffs self incriminate asking questions , objections one point defense managed get quip felony judge said sustained prosecutor could get objection stated g wolfe woodbury wolves den , durham nc site affiliated wolfe wolves durham nc us duke university ! idiots ! uucp ! duke ! wolves ! wolfe standard disclaimers apply , celebrate ! celebrate circle , statement purpose
dianem boi hp com \( diane mathews \) subject janet reno killed waco children distribution na organization hewlett packard boise , idaho lines 12 article 1993apr20 153450 27407 ncsu edu dsh eceyv ncsu edu \( doug holtsinger \) writes janet reno killed waco children responsible deaths resign immediately understood david koresh madman would anything children became provoked warning signs ignored provoked koresh killing children aside fact disagree w , offer resign president rejected offer willing take responsibility , president balls enough stand decision
cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) subject median \? \? \? new study gay percentage organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 48 article darkstar ucsc edu , stephen orchid ucsc edu writes article 15378 optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes santa rosa \( cal \) press democrat , april 15 , 1993 , p b2 male sex survey gay activity low note contradictory title gay activity low really percentage gays low headline writers n't noted accuracy new natonal study male sexual behavior , thorough examination american men 's sexual practices published since kinsey report four decades ago , shows 2 percent men surveyed engaged homosexual sex 1 percent considered exclusively homosexual article also contains numbers number sexual partners median number sexual partners men 20 39 7 3 's shame n't breakdown straight men vs gay bi men would show even dramatically much promiscuous gay bi men let 's take quick look saying median distribution value divides distribution halfway , e 1 2 distribution \( population \) lower half higher values males 20 39 median 7 3 , means half men higher half lower population sample size 3300 , 1 gay , 33 males gay actually , 2 either exclusively homosexual , bisexual n't carefully say distributed equally 16 5 greater 7 3 sexual partners , course , means 49 5 heterosexual men greater 7 3 interesting results clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent ,
cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) subject ca n't ways news enemy , news supporter organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 24 article darkstar ucsc edu , stephen orchid ucsc edu writes mr cramer one hand condemning news media role national news media inflaming passions message subject believe turn around actually take santa rosa \( cal \) press democrat , april 15 , 1993 , p b2 male sex survey gay activity low title even use title san jose mercury news murky news \? going national media , turn around use support position present \? seems somewhat contradictory n't show press democrat misrepresented guttmacher institute 's study , clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent ,
cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) subject age consent child molestation organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 15 article bu edu , kane buast7 bu edu \( hot young star \) writes clayton cramer , read carefully \? article cpp panix com roy panix com \( roy radow \) writes assumed nambla agree specific agendas every participating group , assumed every group supports specific goals ideals yeah , like n't assume aryan nations supports genocide \( \) fooling \? clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent ,
walsh optilink com \( mark walsh \) subject ca n't ways news enemy , news supporter organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 60 article darkstar ucsc edu , stephen orchid ucsc edu mr cramer one hand condemning news media role national news media inflaming passions message subject believe turn around actually take santa rosa \( cal \) press democrat , april 15 , 1993 , p b2 male sex survey gay activity low title even use title san jose mercury news murky news \? going national media , turn around use support position present \? seems somewhat contradictory n't believe contradictory basis quality media reporting varies greatly based subject hand media proven accurate areas presenting raw , undisputed data one good example would weather page high low temperatures previous day large number locations posting little evidence show error american media failed us analysis complex events , however i'm sure come many news stories left us angry many facts cases come mind invasion panama , war iraq , disaster waco , issues surrounding acceptance gays military , war drugs , many others story bring light regarding new sex survey i'm sure due data article , would venture guess data presented deviate survey , however , think would folly blind faith single 's analysis data particular case , little analysis , reader left draw convictions many netters , mr cramer included , often forget american media merely number businesses , 's purpose life make money owners revenues come largely advertisers merely want maximum useful exposure per dollar media like fast food quality food \( reporting \) improve customers demand otherwise , business usual mark walsh \( walsh optilink \) uucp uunet ! optilink ! walsh amateur radio km6xu wx3k aol bigcookie aol com uscf l10861 , worry \? william gaines , 1922 1992 i'm gonna crush ! andre giant , 1946 1993
veal utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) subject clinton press release clipper chip encryption initiative lines 51 organization university tennessee division continuing education article life ai mit edu clinton hq campaign92 org \( white house \) writes statement press secretary initiative involve creation new products accelerate development use advanced secure telecommunications networks wireless communications links state art microcircuit called clipper chip developed government engineers chip represents new approach encryption technology used new , relatively inexpensive encryption devices attached ordinary telephone scrambles telephone communications using encryption algorithm powerful many commercial use today new technology help companies protect proprietary information , protect privacy personal phone conversations prevent unauthorized release data transmitted electronically time technology preserves ability federal , state local law enforcement agencies intercept lawfully phone conversations criminals also allowing law enforcement agencies intercept phone conversations criminals non criminals \( , rev king , n't spying \) wonder long take wrong people put hands equipment necessary read stuff 'll probably safe weapons locked safely evidence rooms keys , numbers needed authorized government agencies decode messages encoded device device manufactured , two keys deposited separately two key escrow data bases established attorney general access keys limited government officials legal authorization conduct wiretap people sell takes corrupting right guy , never happens david veal univ tenn div cont education info services group pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu still remember way laughed , day pushed elevator shaft i'm beginning think n't love anymore weird al
evansmp uhura aston ac uk \( mark evans \) subject new study gay percentage nntp posting host uhura organization aston university x newsreader tin version 1 1 lines 22 richard chandler \( terminus com \) wrote elf halcyon com \( elf sternberg \) thank playing , obviously reading material presented according report 've got hands , newsweek article \( reported 2 3 percent population gay \) used criteria heterosexual contact past year time , university denver study points , quite dramatically , 60 self identifying gay men form heterosexual contact past year think big mistake study must one sexual contact kind previous year , counted heterosexual even n't intend way , 's figures used could someone please post date used distributed returned mark evans evansmp uhura aston ac uk \( 44 \) 21 429 9199 \( home \) evansmp cs aston ac uk \( 44 \) 21 359 6531 \( office \)
veal utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) subject gun like american express car lines 87 organization university tennessee division continuing education article 1993apr20 grace rt cs boeing com atc boeing com \( richard \) writes article utkvm1 utk edu , veal utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) writes article 1993apr14 grace rt cs boeing com atc boeing com \( richard \) writes directly contradicted nejm study compared crime seattle vancouver , b c non gun rates roughly cities difference violent crime rates almost totally gun related pointed study , critiques , \( two seperate articles james wright david kopel come mind \) pointed difference also almost entirely minority related , gun crime rate poor minorities \( blacks hispanics primarily \) compared white majority identical many people never read nejm article believe critique valid fact , study explores minority issue length cites studies back contention poverty , minority type , relevant factor violence statistics perhaps failed make clear minorities u correlate poverty n't good address , ignore minorities poverty tend go together vancouver consistantly poor population drawn along racial lines \? n't , assumptions able compare minority vs majority cities questionable best post hoc ergo propter hoc areas implemented gun control high rates true certain extent take washington c , gun control instituted crime problems true , crime proceeded explode afterwards similarly new york actually , n't know whether serious studies done cities usenet style statistical arguments serious , usually involving people sitting computers latest world almanac figures heard study washington , dc , seemed indicate significant drop gun related violence laws implemented heard gary kleck comment radio thought decline suicide rates related new laws , doubted affect gun related violence never seen report study , pro gun friends much say report remember , ca n't say crime increases indicate failure laws affect crime rates n't know whether rate increase would different without laws rate increase period several years remains unchanged , increases , think 's far jump say laws effective , ca n't sit say things would n't worse n't crystal ball neither however , road leads us place impossible critique action gets , might worse without , valid objection , i'm sure would amuse certain people end n't know whether laws prevented increase failed stop two fold increase 've got situation several options 1 \) crime rate decreased obviously gun control worked 2 \) crime rate remained would worse without gun control 3 \) crime rate increased perhaps laws prevented even bigger increase cute testing ground 've got responses support proposition gun control works question washington c increase violent gun crime rate greater pattern indicated prior implemented gun control laws , suggestion problem gun control laws designed control exist entirety prior gun control laws david veal univ tenn div cont education info services group pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu still remember way laughed , day pushed elevator shaft i'm beginning think n't love anymore weird al
v111qheg ubvmsd cc buffalo edu \( p vasilion \) subject welcome police state usa organization university buffalo lines 30 news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host ubvmsd cc buffalo edu article rigel tamu edu , mst4298 rigel tamu edu \( mitchell todd \) writes article 1993apr20 udel edu , carroll hercules cis udel edu \( mark c carroll \) writes wait second , 're ignoring major facts attempt simply serve warrant batf knock warrant initial firefight began batf threw concussion grenades building \( batf admits ! \) batf say \? everything 've seen batf , official version dissident statements batf officers conducted raid claims davidians shooting agents long within grenade range saw tv claim two different things davidians start shooting batf couple windows started shooting also , warrant sealed , know 'no \? easy ! see federal agents body armor sub machine guns going throught windows , knock warrant also since videotape shows batf throwing grenades bd 's fire , safely assume n't ring doorbell p vasilion , p get rid bandwidth sig !
stephen orchid ucsc edu \( \) subject median \? \? \? new study gay percentage organization santa cruz lines 41 nntp posting host orchid ucsc edu article optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes article darkstar ucsc edu , stephen orchid ucsc edu writes article 15378 optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes santa rosa \( cal \) press democrat , april 15 , 1993 , p b2 male sex survey gay activity low note contradictory title gay activity low really percentage gays low headline writers n't noted accuracy stated study presented accurate dependable way confusing issue read title implies gay sex \( homosexual sex \) activities low compared general population surveyed new natonal study male sexual behavior , thorough examination american men 's sexual practices published since kinsey report four decades ago , shows 2 percent men surveyed engaged homosexual sex 1 percent considered exclusively homosexual actually , 2 either exclusively homosexual , bisexual n't carefully well let us quibble look statement posted , marked ' ' , states 1 exclusively homosexual states 2 engaged homosexual sex please use adjective homosexual sex stated take 1 valid viewpoint believe either 1 \) writing think writing , 2 \) ca n't read remember wrote
curry sctc com \( russ curry \) subject janet reno killed waco children organization sctc distribution na lines 30 dsh eceyv ncsu edu \( doug holtsinger \) writes janet reno killed waco children responsible deaths resign immediately \( agree ! \) understood david koresh madman would anything children became provoked warning signs ignored provoked koresh killing children think problem mrs reno strikes \( watching nightline last night \) person incapable understanding dealing great number things fact bill hillary clear decks dream package free stuff american people \( subjects \) could n't wild card floating around robert fifth reich reich plan glorious peoples democracy would n't fit vision progressively working , think working handful peasant children die glorious vision year child america , small price pay let eat cake
subject earth also pollutes rodger scoggin ksc nasa gov \( rodger c scoggin \) nntp posting host 128 159 2 197 lines 24 article dzvb3b6w164w cellar org , techie cellar org \( william bacon \) says fury mother nature man 's contribution environmental pollution paltry compared nature exceptional book trashing planet , former atomic energy commision chairman dr dixie lee ray notes based available data , atomic energy commision hmm , would say earth may spew alot substances atmosphere , quality toxic output easily make lack quantity furthermore , planet system carbon , sulfur chemicals acting billions years , newcomers system must adapt control order bring stability also , two wrongs make right , continuing practices despite overwhelming data ignorance \( non \) action los many environmentalists attributed 1988 drought u global warming , researchers national center atmospheric research educated open minded environmentalists opinions reflective employer disclaimer
subject scientists believe green house effect rodger scoggin ksc nasa gov \( rodger c scoggin \) nntp posting host 128 159 2 197 lines 7 article cellar org , techie cellar org \( william bacon \) says word sums , alot scientist concluded without doubt global climate occur \( ring \) dealt source reductions includes making sure price fossil fuels reflects true costs opinions reflective employer 's disclaimer
gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) subject f cus health big secret nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) organization phds hall lines 40 demon desire wright edu \( boomer \) writes harelb math cornell edu writes matter logic government run systems inefficient , fact highly private sector system us vastly inefficient therefore irrelevant proof entire private sector vastly inefficient \? good point , brett might merely proof basic health care markets operate differently , certain private sector ca n't handle well \( like armies vs \) respect , effects american society vs canadian european society might also different , example , relevance blue cross massachusetts employs people , employed canada 's health programs , insure 10 times many people blue cross government health insurance provider good point blue cross u quite convoluted compared canadian german insurance funds , minimal organization coordinate anything , bureaucracy needs built canada combat fraud , americans crossing border individually use insurance cards borrowed friends relatives using phony domestic addresses , fraud rings stealing blocks private practices recording insurance account numbers , public insurance private insurance , never bothered assumption honour system gld je souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go ! ! ! gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
matt galaxy nsc com \( matt freivald x8043 \) subject good neighbor political hypocrisy test keywords depth look fractal federalism nntp posting host snow nsc com organization thought police watchdog agency , u lines 284 article senator bedfellow mit edu wdstarr athena mit edu \( william december starr \) writes \( ca politics omitted distribution line site 's news posting software n't believe refuses try post \( sure hope matt also reads either f r l p \) saw p , thanks article voder nsc com , matt galaxy nsc com \( matt freivald x8043 \) said like call form government advocate fractal federalism fractal federalism , representative national government certain limited powers absolutely necessary level next state governments , absolutely necessary powers onward counties , cities , districts , neighborhoods 1 \) lowest \( read local \) levels ones power individuals' day day lives , good level individuals voice know , take logical conclusion , n't seem real lowest level level individuals voice single individuals \? omitted level model \? yes , individual omitted n't fully articulate principles fractal federalism government powers derive people level receive new power level amendment process , true consensus \( say 3 4 majority \) writes power constitution level \( case lowest level , passed 3 4 majority vote case higher levels , must passed 3 4 course haggle specifics true consensus hold constitutional convention \) power granted , may exercised legislature powers original constitutions must upward , starting individual process original constitutions involve consensus simply plurality majority granting right constitution course government level restrict activities governments lower levels , operates way amendment process \( , crazy resemblance supposed actual u government structure \) government structure frustrating one people \( read liberals \) would like concentrated power use government force people good \( difficult define word , one difficult reach consensus \) also frustrating structure want use government dictate personal behavior \( read big government conservatives \) personally would rather see types people frustrated incredible erosion liberty \( civil economic \) going imho good government see role government protection individual liberties , still recognizing individuals need influence type community live 2 \) free market works government , economics succesful ideas , unsuccessful ideas die definition successful idea successful government \? one maintains peace , liberty , opportunity happiness people , working within realities human nature bring point \( intentional \) lasting idea means necessarily successful idea believe fractal federalism would least bring many ideas light , people would opportunity democratically choose good ideas bad ideas , er , mean democrats right government activism people , plethora local opportunities check thesis possible , arise balanced conservative republic democratically received best level government activity , become clear people best far set moral tone concerned , community collectively want put prostitution going front kids , \? community want see proliferation drugs among kids , \? reason put church operating right open , kids see , owner house across street flying american flag right open every day front kids 's called freedom n't like ideas kids exposed , try educate persuade kids things 're seeing people wrong bad right , people would rescind freedoms \( read empower government \) except amendment process federal government supposed work , supreme soviet , er , mean supreme court put stop republican government nonsense hypothetical government , constitutional provision government regulate churches government \( whatever level talking \) could indeed ban churches constitutional provision would invalid higher level constitutional provision protecting free exercise religion constitution still supreme law land \( find interesting applaud idea free market competition among various ideas , yet support right majority community suppress ideas n't like \) matter individuals able control associations environment , matter suppression ideas one dilemma human condition individuals need liberty , also need control environment fractal federalism government , certain rights protected constitutions rights protected simply government empowered infringe upon consensus reached government certain power , freedom infringed upon cannot avoided murder statutes infringe upon freedom , think consensus american people murder statutes good idea sure many parents believe right control environment children live people feel right sleep peacefully night thus , noise ordinances laws keep businesses residential neighborhoods view bad things \( certainly individual instances bad , concept necessarily bad \) , view people community control type community live see alternative near anarchy like said another post , come scenario individual something truly absolutely zero effect anyone else individual government right restrict activity simply many behaviors fit category truly autonomous , whole thing becomes issue one individual group power another individual group think fractal federalism approach sound , ideal , approach limiting restrictive power libertarian scenario degenerates might makes right , system right one lawyers abusing natural rights philosophy decide powers government democratic process though supreme court problem egalitarian view tries deny fundamental dilemma democratic government people right exercise voice community , yet individuals right left serious dilemma precisely much takes place vacuum oddly enough , say taken literally little conflict people indeed right exercise voice voice equals persuasive speech communities 's somehow get idea heads also right dictate behavior communities trouble begins think answered already , let expand little example stand naked front house masturbate front children play , libertarian \( small \) scenario recourse yell autonomous value judgement 99 99 time , scientific reality clear definition exactly would empower make value judgement \? stuff deleted certainly cause , mike , people local neighborhood voice goes neighborhood deny create another concentrated centralized power keep locality abusing power essence , using pit bull keep toy biting leg chances , pit bull going turn day , much less defense toy argument appears tyranny individual local majority superior federal government exercise power protect individual neighbors federal government eventually inevitably become corrupt use power everyone okay , 's lot truth certainly 're seeing something like happening united states today \( though 's unclear progression matches model , since beloved benign federal government n't ever shown much enthusiasm idea protecting individuals \) lots people long complaints short practical solutions although pessimistic idea ever bear fruit , least trying long solutions also truly interested improvements make ideas \( call ideas , come average guy reading u constitution without benefit indoctrination constitutional law academia \) say think solution least bad trading yoke federal tyranny yoke local tyranny n't cheer much think 'd prefer put faith larger government least might protect individual time time rather place local mob rule admittedly , 's lesser two evils , 's less much , 're pretty damn evil sorry , confusion fault said fractal federalism resembles u constitution , meant thought pretty clear clearly explained ultimate derivation government power consensus people \( although consent every individual practical observation , moral judgement \) certainly better government power derive nine lawyers , situation think supreme court jury court , different jury case certainly perfect \( philosophy government \) , still find repugnant idea \? , solution \? ideally , everyone would leave everyone else alone government coercive power kind would necessary never work , people different nature always want force views others case , nobody would try force view murder wrong anyone else true question , going \? proposed solution seems actually encourage bozos lord victims think misunderstood structure form government advocate , fault clear oh , way thinking irrelevant integrity irrelevant free speech irrelevant private property irrelevant personal responsibility irrelevant futile assimilated much would freedom speech private property rights respected community majority allowed make rules \? \( man 's saying things public n't want children exposed ! let 's shut ! homos living together house ! let 's run 'em outta town ! \) majority make rules majority \( possibly plurality \) simply representatives exercise limited government powers limited government powers derive large consensus , simple majority federal government , scenario , still power protect freedoms william december starr wdstarr athena mit edu matt freivald thinking irrelevant integrity irrelevant free speech irrelevant private property irrelevant personal responsibility irrelevant futile assimilated opinions employer ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
nelson p apollo hp com \( peter nelson \) subject welcome police state usa nntp posting host c ch apollo hp com organization hewlett packard corporation , chelmsford , lines 35 article ctron news ctron com smith ctron com writes article c5rusq m6m news cso uiuc edu , azoghlin uxa cso uiuc edu \( old freshman \( vof \) \) writes critisism easy solutions people would better fbi last months \? starters , could gone waiting negotiating davidians n't going anywhere , supplies limited large , perhaps , limited simply fired compound without gov't tanks smashing walls , least gov't would guilty used inappropriate level force , would able use meantime continue pressure negotiate , would looked good news six months year sure hell n't look good true today 's boston globe interviewed former church leader consultant cults said fbi 's approach totally wrong said tried break bd 's loyalty koresh psychological means koresh 's whole theology based approaching confrontation forces evil world seige mentality based feds played hands perfectly surrounding compound tanks playing loud rock music glaring lights strongly reinforced koresh 's message outside world evil threatening said instead set picnic atmosphere , acted inviting friendly broadcast anything pa systems loving relatives reflecting pleasant events cult idea make outside world surrender seem like pleasant , desirable alternative interesting comments peter
visser convex com \( lance visser \) subject message mr president know happened \? nntp posting host dhostwo convex com organization engineering , convex computer corp , richardson , tx , usa x disclaimer message written user convex computer corp opinions expressed user necessarily convex lines 41 cs edu bill triangle cs edu \( bill \) writes 1 thing non toxic tear gas tear gas non breathable remaining 's presence cause nausea vomiting , followed eventually death fbi know physical health people exposed \? \? potential heart problems among b 's \? \? certainly knew pregnant women plus children could believe said gassing attempt save children yesterday ca n't think much worse sort child abuse pouring tear gas building 2 ever seen tear gas canister \? \? tear gas produced burning chemical fumes produced tear gas canister warning printed side contact material result fire , many canisters throw inside building fire trap \? \? heard two things recently explaining 1 pumped gas building outside via sort pipe rather canister 2 sort tear gas using described sort material sticks things kind like powder cloud , government explainations since government stories always change , none information might true whole thing case reaction officials every step hope thoroughly investigated responsible parties held accountable highly unlikely figure going investigating better yet , texas rangers investigating probably worse fbi atf investigating
ed wente llnl gov \( ed suranyi \) subject waco burnout organization uc davis dept applied science llnl lines 14 nntp posting host wente llnl gov article 1993apr19 hemlock cray com rja mahogany126 cray com \( russ anderson \) writes authorities saying branch davidian members seen starting fire looks like witnesses dispute claim fbi says survivors claim seen leaders cult talking setting fire , kerosene assume come trial occurs result events ed ed wente llnl gov
houts ehs uiuc edu \( todd houts \) subject new study gay percentage keywords mow , homosexual , march , millions , percentage organization university illinois urbana lines 28 article apr 20 10 27 01 1993 romulus rutgers edu kaldis romulus rutgers edu \( theodore kaldis \) writes would n't worry much , though starting find politically homosexuals really \( non relevant stuff deleted \) coming saturday going wind tremendous egg face , submit , perhaps 35 , 000 queers show washington promising crowds millions ones look like act queer nation , guy working next 's really going play middle america wrong participated last national march washington \( mow \) rights \( oct 11 , 1987 \) 750 , 000 people n't alot pissing us time big issue aids crisis , n't slapped around quite bad time aids , equal rights , military mow planning years whereas last one pulled together relatively short time last mow largest ever c bet going exceed long shot truly believe exceed 1 0 million goal mow committee always set event todd houts email houts uiuc edu houts ehs uiuc edu message day 5 days til mow
jviv usmi01 midland chevron com \( john viveiros \) subject good neighbor political hypocrisy test organization chevron lines 38 article apollo hp com nelson p apollo hp com \( peter nelson \) writes human communities impose values individuals 's virtually operational definition one find example human community n't discovered new phenomenon nature 's pointless asking whether communities 's like asking whether leopard spots evolved way human communities evolved \( biological social senses evolve \) characteristic debate whether particular matter left individual part process evolution nature human community impose values individuals find single counterexample nature peter times human history , people killed stolen one another find example n't happened history , discovered new phenomenon nature pointless asking whether people evolved way humans evolved debate whether particular matter left individual , nature humans kill steal others find single counterexample \( society without types \) nature please find better argument 's way always child mortality always , yet find hearts made attempt change john viveiros \( jviv chevron com \) chevron usa standard disclaimer applies midland tx
gsmith iwr uni heidelberg de \( gene w smith \) subject americans sexually repressed \? organization iwr , university heidelberg , germany lines 35 article jason ab20 larc nasa gov jason c austin j c austin larc nasa gov writes article 1993apr17 sun0 urz uni heidelberg de gsmith lauren iwr uni heidelberg de \( gene w smith \) writes recent studies map less recent studies none said shown anything within accuracy 1 10 1 , claim study battelle human affairs research centers seattle hot topic news last week study questioned random 3 , 321 men face face interview studies , study studies , including published janus report , give different figures janus report figures different kinsey 9 homosexual men , 4 bisexual men earlier studies map also think 's talking kinsey came 10 statistic used heavily gay groups push political agenda kinsey 's work often accused lacking strong scientific backbone n't stupid kinsey report one study , ca n't map studies , including battelle one , also far agendas go , really agenda obvious gene ward smith brahms gang iwr university gsmith iwr uni heidelberg de
mikeq freddy cna tek com \( mike quigley \) subject janet reno killed waco children distribution na organization tektronix , inc , redmond , lines 17 article boi hp com dianem boi hp com \( diane mathews \) writes article 1993apr20 153450 27407 ncsu edu dsh eceyv ncsu edu \( doug holtsinger \) writes janet reno killed waco children responsible deaths resign immediately aside fact disagree w , offer resign president rejected offer willing take responsibility , helluva lot republican attorney general ever ! btw , tears wasting religious nuts , wanted wasted anyway \? got back wasting hundred thousand religious nuts middle east , everybody ! ! mike
phil netcom com \( phil ronzone \) subject , disaster organization generally favor , mostly random distribution na lines 34 article charnel ecst csuchico edu dyoung ecst csuchico edu \( douglas young \) writes face facts love canal , , environmental disaster , even problem times beach tmi acid rain killing trees problem \? would move three mile island \? would imagine cheap property available ! , n't like weather back east however , would bother one bit live equivalent area way , know extra exposure radiation tmi \? naturally occurring catastrophic events disasters destroy property \( ie , , \) usually leave toxic wastes prevent people building lives man made disasters \( oil spills , toxic dumping , radioactive waste \) cause death make area far beyond initial event k , u , tell deaths areas oh , manage find areas , tell percentage total us land area \( hint total waste produced nuclear reactors us safely stored area three fields \) actually people still believe love canal kind environmental disaster weird , eh \? opinions mine , ca n't 'em ! \( 'll rent 'em cheap \)
jviv usmi01 midland chevron com \( john viveiros \) subject waco panama organization chevron lines 15 n't recognized names previous discussions , notice blame clinton actions batf waco unless felt way bush 's direct command panama , 's partisan whining expect see way condemn one i'm sure tell killing thousands civilians serve arrest warrant much better allowing 80 religious fanatics commit suicide following botched attempt batf serve search warrant john viveiros \( jviv chevron com \) chevron usa standard disclaimer applies midland tx
starowl rahul net \( michael adams \) subject median \? \? \? new study gay percentage nntp posting host bolero reply starowl rahul net organization service actuarial consulting x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 28 20 apr 93 13 34 03 gmt , gary piatt observed first , median imply half men half 7 3 simply means 7 3 mid point maximum number partners minimum \( likely zero \) actually , median defined 50th median number sexual partners men 7 3 , means least 50 men 7 3 fewer sexual partners , least 50 men 7 3 sexual partners \( question 0 3 sexual partner \? \) confuse matters , take following data set 5 0 , 6 0 , 6 0 , 7 0 , 7 0 , 7 3 , 8 0 , 9 0 , 9 0 , 9 0 , 250 0 mean \( arithmetic average \) set numbers 29 4 sample standard deviation 73 2 mode 9 0 median 7 3 michael adams \( starowl a2i rahul net \) enterprise , alabama 's strange quirk , hardly ever sing along people tie
phil netcom com \( phil ronzone \) subject using california 's antidiscrimination sort case predicted organization generally favor , mostly random lines 30 article 1993apr20 cs nott ac uk eczcaw mips nott ac uk \( wainwright \) writes clayton , babe , please define word using legal term proper dictionary term \? molest , far remember , means damage person \( \) ` mate , mike , woman 's 14 molestation \? number friends \( straight \) lost virginity \? told thoroughly enjoyed experience see damage please stop pushing objective morality others push , people wo n't fall say , 're right ! ' , 'll push back signed logic course yet \? yep child tree frog johnson 6 months reportedly enjoyed experiences well trained using food fbi agent reported \( disciplinary action beating tree frog \) see 2 1 2 year old baby cheerfully tell wants peanut butter sandwich 'll suck pee pee , lose control quite sick actually people still believe love canal kind environmental disaster weird , eh \? opinions mine , ca n't 'em ! \( 'll rent 'em cheap \)
phil netcom com \( phil ronzone \) subject new study gay percentage organization generally favor , mostly random lines 30 article 1993apr20 cs nott ac uk eczcaw mips nott ac uk \( wainwright \) writes guess person dislikes contact people ethnic minority however , argument falls flat face state , anti discrimination bill , would forced associate others homosexuals , assume know associate , except may closeted \? would like change argument read forced associate truthfully homosexual people \? proof anyone know may homosexual punches large hole argument belief homosexual comes one flavour \( sic \) camp type \? prove cannot quite incoherent perhaps forced associate people think nice large group locked basement 12 hours wonderfully educate , n't believe freedom , ca n't complain bloody actually people still believe love canal kind environmental disaster weird , eh \? opinions mine , ca n't 'em ! \( 'll rent 'em cheap \)
sun com \( john chandler \) subject top ten excuses slick willie 's record setting disapproval rati usenet ins cwru edu 93105 psuvm psu edu 1993apr16 1208 dg rtp dg com organization river corporation lines 12 nntp posting host reply crosmun crosmun rtp dg com 's message fri , 16 apr 93 22 15 46 gmt article 1993apr16 1208 dg rtp dg com crosmun crosmun rtp dg com \( william crosmun \) writes hand , rush made interesting point democrats ran one best campaigns years pathetic republican still pulled 43 vote , lost 10 seats house , gained 0 seats senate 1994 might pretty interesting clueless world , take heart ! 57 electorate willing vote pathetic republican ! ! jmc
as010b uhura cc rochester edu \( tree schnopia \) subject new study gay percentage nntp posting host uhura cc rochester edu organization university rochester rochester , new york lines 57 apr 20 10 27 01 1993 romulus rutgers edu kaldis romulus rutgers edu \( theodore kaldis \) writes article optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes brandeis mean , many people actually care many people gay \( long know find avoid want \) \? n't n't care , much effort put promoting 10 lie \? important scare politicians obedience would n't worry much , though starting find politically homosexuals really colorado boycott , slick willie effectively prevented implementing military policy wrt homosexuals members party , new study casts large shadow doubt claims large numbers , coming saturday going wind tremendous egg face , submit , perhaps 35 , 000 queers show washington promising crowds millions ones look like act queer nation , guy working next 's really going play middle america sigh 're absolutely right political power whatsoever therefore , oppressed ignored , right \? certainly hope n't , sir , heard disparaging towards political minorities , shred self respect , 'd door pretty soon find retreating back closet belong n't count , sweetheart views expressed herein theodore kaldis seriously kaldis remus rutgers edu believe major university ! rutgers ! remus rutgers edu ! kaldis would hold views \? \? \? certainly major universities would n't touch views display perspective ten foot pole drewcifer p incidentally , think even could come enlightenment bullshit evolve bit , \? bi andrew simchik schnopia ! as010b uhura cc rochester edu treewater words n't made cowards happy rhodes
veal utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) subject welcome police state usa lines 72 organization university tennessee division continuing education article c5si9g hx dscomsa desy de hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) writes article 1993apr20 030234 66491 cc usu edu , slp9k cc usu edu writes batf left beginning , looked koresh 's personality instead thought , guns bigger guns let 's go get 'em ! botched day one n't first place conveniently ignores murder four batf agents branch davidians unprovoked ambush 're doubt aware , phill , probably five six different , mutually contradictory versions events waco feb 28 reputable news sources , ranging associated press time newsweek earliest reports issued ap flattering batf , produced question fired first , know , witness kind doubt government allows tinpot dictators set shop declare private state drifted anarchy laws control ownership guns batf good reason beleive violated set obtain legal warrant attempted serve met gunfire rang doorbell batf , letter 've sending people , says lost element surprise , went knocked door slammed faces strikes kind strange rely surprise serve warrant knocking door least questions need answered paranoid assertion batf fired first unprovoked assault assumes batf death wish paranoid made witnesses original assault stated batf initiated hostilities throwing concussion grenades reported associated press expected b anything peacefull citizens would accept search authorized court would turned tank broken door day one phill , batf firefight bd forty five minutes find hard believe expecting peaceful citizens would n't shown live stock trailers would retreated immediately expecting citizens , show hundred officers , clearly visible video carrying sub machineguns , 3 national guard helicopters \? n't know , , said , questions need answered david veal univ tenn div cont education info services group pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu still remember way laughed , day pushed elevator shaft i'm beginning think n't love anymore weird al
lamar colostate edu \( robert brewer \) subject rush joke nntp posting host lamar acns colostate edu organization colorado state university , fort collins , co 80523 lines 11 heard day rush gotten together tammy baker crawling bed night rush 's feet brushed tammy 's legs god ! feet cold said rush looked back said , tammy honey , told 're alone call rush ba dump bump ! bob
as010b uhura cc rochester edu \( tree schnopia \) subject employment \( concentrate child molesters \? nntp posting host uhura cc rochester edu organization university rochester rochester , new york lines 17 wow , n't realized getting ! careful problem n't rich values systems make rich rich things designed way order go system make money , everything else care goes shit constantly remind goal human society make money money n't make us happy prevents certain things making us unhappy therefore , n't shoot rich shoot conservatives ! drewcifer bi andrew simchik schnopia ! as010b uhura cc rochester edu treewater words n't made cowards happy rhodes
jason ab20 larc nasa gov \( jason austin \) subject americans sexually repressed \? organization nasa langley research center , hampton , va lines 17 1993apr17 sun0 urz uni heidelberg de jason ab20 larc nasa gov titan ucs umass edu reply jason c austin j c austin larc nasa gov nntp posting host ab20 larc nasa gov reply quilty titan ucs umass edu 's message 19 apr 1993 13 31 28 0400 article titan ucs umass edu quilty titan ucs umass edu \( lulu lotus \) writes think 's talking kinsey came 10 statistic used heavily gay groups push political agenda kinsey 's work often accused lacking strong scientific backbone really must defend man alfred poster really taken seriously , since 's rants still , n't mistakenly criticize man really need able support without insults article 're calling rants actually absolutely none opinions series factual statements jason c austin j c austin larc nasa gov
csc canterbury ac nz subject welcome police state usa nntp posting host cantva canterbury ac nz organization university canterbury , christchurch , new zealand lines 14 article c5rusq m6m news cso uiuc edu , azoghlin uxa cso uiuc edu \( old freshman \( vof \) \) writes critisism easy solutions people would better fbi last months \? 1 withdraw 2 leave people compund lead lives choose 3 prosecute agents murder brandon , university canterbury , christchurch new zealand
mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com \( mark wilson \) subject nc vs hunt \( marine gay bashing wilmington nc \) verdict organization ncr engineering manufacturing atlanta atlanta , ga distribution usa lines 33 ursa bear com halat panther bears \( jim halat \) writes article 1993apr17 bsu ucs 00cmmiller leo bsuvc bsu edu writes fact bunch cops putting lives line day day afraid hell large black guy took large amount punishment refused submit \? oh yeah , h start video king got prone postion charge cops \? sorry , video cuts sit watch start even rodney king come car waving gun managed disarm , police still right right beat senseless way ground ca n't handle jobs , relieved police beat king ground beat knees trying get back entire video would seen additionally , anna new york times said best \( paraphrase \) many people bring happened shown tape 's came 80 's , ronald reagan , george bush , racism , think true , much less relevant , shape thought mob rule n't prettier merely mob calls government ai n't charity using someone else 's money wilson 's theory relativity go back far enough , 're related mark wilson atlantaga ncr com
cutter gloster via mind org \( cutter \) subject limiting govt \( employment \( concentrate distribution world organization gordian knot , gloster , ga lines 27 pjs269 tijc02 uucp \( paul schmidt \) writes want know competent doctor ill government regulations driven costs decreased quality providing monopoly licensed many procedures could performed qualified nurses doctors forced common cold must diagnosed licensed doctor one allowed write doctor 's spending much time mundane cases cannot time spend really tough cases results higher cost , lower quality medical care georgia , state legislature 1992 accidentally passed law lobbied prohibiting anyone licensed md giving shots trying limit competing inadvertantly forbade nurses , , dentists , artists piercing skin \( probably diabetics \) secretary state 's office announced june 30th would n't enforce pending 1003 legislature hassle state flag heard nothing repealing cutter gloster via mind org \( chris \) jobs easy person n't holt 's law
bbn com \( bob \) subject message mr president know happened \? organization bbn , cambridge lines 38 reply bbn com nntp posting host snoopy bbn com reply goykhman apollo hp com 's message 20 apr 93 14 11 06 gmt article apollo hp com goykhman apollo hp com \( red herring \) writes article netcom com bskendig netcom com \( brian kendig \) writes used tank knock hole wall , released non toxic , non flammable tear gas building non toxic tear gas \? ! \? know tear gas \? upon time happened room someone threw tear gas grenade \( supposed joke \) sensation incredible felt eyes torn apart remember us bunch young men early 20 's running like herd wild animals , knocking door jumping windows \( thank g first floor \) ca n't imagine kind stuff used children , worst effect might physical effects much psychological effect without fully understanding cause many years ago , accidentally exposed tiny dose tear gas \( athens , street leading american embassy 'd march broken tear gas must stumbled remaining patch gas next day \) aside tears , feeling sick stomach , etc , really horrible psychological effect suddenly falling pieces knowing happened horrified wondered disease health problem \( n't find march tear gas till hours later \) imagine horribly might young children suddenly crying feeling sick , weak , control body knowing cause ``this gives us chance try gas peace '' yeah , right 30 bob
hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) subject waco survivors 1715 19 april lines 121 reply hallam zeus02 desy de organization desydeutsches elektronen synchrotron , experiment zeus bei hera article pew hawnews watson ibm com , strom watson ibm com \( rob strom \) writes article c5segz mwr dscomsa desy de , hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) writes order reject word fbi batf neccessary beleive words man murdered 17 children ordered suicide murder 80 followers according account given batf attempted serve warrant upon koresh ranch met gunfire deliberate attempt murder koresh gun supporter claim batf started shooting simply stand aft gone start shooting would gone heavier grade weaponry standard issue handguns practical purposes unarmed , b followers automatic weapons people want gun control must obviously discount entire government story simply rationalisation enough simply dismiss government incompetent would require come solution instead come government conspiracy theory whereby government decided set murder 80 people set sort scare alow get gun control legislation must object characterization opposed government 's handling waco situation gun supporters argument tries paint batf critics right wing gun nuts , mixes two issues one batf fbi critics , yet liberal anti gun happen believe everyone civil rights , even religious crazies 're human beings , nest wasps 're trying exterminate batf created crisis situation way handled original raid well known koresh regularly went jogging outside property could served search warrant could arrested refused comply instead officers armed grenades invaded property escalated shooting war tragic deaths sides first two mistakes bad judgment asking knock warrant , bad probably illegal way already unwise warrant served point , situation escalated described armed standoff hostage crisis 's government started covering traces , sealing warrant , reported history incident , etc things already building disaster government could simply closed supply routes waited according janet reno , option never seriously considered , supposedly agents frustrated , supposedly backups , felt go yes govt handled rambo hollywood type style perhaps thats way handle completely different thing start asserting many done government primarily blame comparisons nazis particular purely gratuitous since provided constructive opinion issue post taken seriously peter nelson also made good points low key approach might effective point though learn mistakes govt played wrong card lost thats big deal four guys murdered begining maybee prepared situation could \? thing happen might perhaps able govt used tactics failed way ca n't say would made mistake maybee would n't n't rule go confrontational situation avoid maybee would press difficult try macho stuff fbi information within compound access may calculated b followers resolve cracking based listening devices within compound knew koresh one suicide attempt may reason considered fear might weapon breaking resolve panama used heavy rock music great effect bush 's invasion funny koresh supporters complain much death several thousand civilians us govt attempted arrest former ally please let 's turn pro gun vs anti gun discussion anti gun people believe gun owners deserve get assaulted armed government agents koresh 's civil rights exist whether guns legal , illegal , illegal legal , whatever ! koresh civil rights minute followers fired police helicopter matter whether warrant technically valid guys carrying thought thus assault completely inexcusable matter rationalisation people might wish employ course consider guns issue whole core question everything else diversion phill hallam baker
psuvm psu edu subject race violence 1993apr18 magnus acs ohio state edu netcom com distribution usa organization penn state university lines 38 article netcom com , mvp netcom com \( mike van pelt \) says something terribly wrong , however , culture condemns , attacks , often kills members attempt get education mother elementary school teacher , tells african american frustrated tears fact african american child attempts well school get education accused peers trying white , beaten , , tormented goes beyond passing grade test earning beating mother 's school , one promising young students , happened african american , throat cut one young thugs know , point , n't stop african americans high school early 1980s , various occasions knives pulled , friends stabbed , beaten repeatedly could n't accept different n't let teachers hook either many many occasions , teachers either scared wits even stop people attacked would watch quietly nice white middle class high school fact , nice white made sure one black kid class unable go prom white girlfriend n't race thing , 's way public schools seem run 'd hate high school right least n't deal guns , psycho drug jocks without future plenty testosterone 'd separate everyone wants learn assholes hey , learning glorification jocks american tradition , think anything going change \? kids , take 'em public school system educate 's 'll ever would n't wish went upon kid maybe parents though scott
markp wri com subject worshipping constitution \? \( gun \) organization utexas mail news gateway lines 29 nntp posting host cs utexas edu papresco undergrad math uwaterloo ca \( paul prescod \) said sorry reading newsgroup ca n't help get impression mouth lunatics get lot snip c \) constitution worshiping 's right 's constitution constitution n't framed men , centuries ago totally different world three options respect constitution 1 abide 2 duly amend 3 abandon parts majority disapproves course , since whole point constitution restrain majority , since even democracy nothing fear minorities , 3 amounts abandoning constitution altogether \? mark pundurs resemblance opinions wolfram research , inc purely coincidental
hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) subject welcome police state usa lines 61 reply hallam zeus02 desy de organization desydeutsches elektronen synchrotron , experiment zeus bei hera article veal 755 utkvm1 utk edu , veal utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) writes article c5si9g hx dscomsa desy de hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) writes government allows tinpot dictators set shop declare private state drifted anarchy laws control ownership guns batf good reason beleive violated set obtain legal warrant attempted serve met gunfire rang doorbell batf , letter 've sending people , says lost element surprise , went knocked door slammed faces strikes kind strange rely surprise serve warrant knocking door presumably b mount continuous state alert gunmen ready fire people casually walked ring doorbell inside building batf would control trained police officers match bunch bozos playing soldiers expected b anything peacefull citizens would accept search authorized court would turned tank broken door day one phill , batf firefight bd forty five minutes find hard believe expecting peaceful citizens would n't shown live stock trailers would retreated immediately smart move unless meant part cover even narrow opening trucks simply good idea side opening truck would much better , like covered expecting citizens , show hundred officers , clearly visible video carrying sub machineguns , 3 national guard helicopters \? sounds right minimum amount force would consider necessary serve warrant talk politics guns annual dinner michael ordered use 5000 crack troops including members parachute regiment remove approx 250 peace protestors site wanted install cruise missiles even turned flack jacket monitor proceedings dangerous tool women tin opener single action probably cost position prime minister one elders church got arrested heroic action forces ever something national joke phill hallam baker
dave bsd uchicago edu \( dave griffith \) subject waco survivors 1715 19 april organization university chicago computing organizations lines 25 article dscomsa desy de hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) writes point though learn mistakes govt played wrong card lost thats big deal four guys murdered begining maybee prepared situation could \? thing happen might perhaps able govt used tactics failed way ca n't say would made mistake maybee would n't n't rule go confrontational situation avoid maybee would press difficult try macho stuff god , many chances get \? operation move \( , early 80 's \) , black panthers \( chicago , 1969 \) , etc , etc hell , get heavily armed cults west every couple years start cascade times feds situations like \? dave griffith , information resources , university chicago , biological sciences division dave delphi bsd uchicago edu brain damage chromosome damage
hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) subject welcome police state usa lines 38 reply hallam zeus02 desy de organization desydeutsches elektronen synchrotron , experiment zeus bei hera article rigel tamu edu , mst4298 rigel tamu edu \( mitchell todd \) writes xref dscomsa alt activism talk politics misc article 1993apr20 udel edu , carroll hercules cis udel edu \( mark c carroll \) writes wait second , 're ignoring major facts attempt simply serve warrant batf knock warrant initial firefight began batf threw concussion grenades building \( batf admits ! \) batf say \? everything 've seen batf , official version dissident statements batf officers conducted raid claims davidians shooting agents long within grenade range also , warrant sealed , know 'no \? hey n't confuse guys facts dude ! might break beautiful illusions ! course batf admits mean batf deny post pro koresh gun lobby person time back anyone wants understand paranoid mindset koresh offer talk politics guns minds hung power ego trips bend reality arround particular set long ago gave arguing case arms control directly instead invite people ask , would want room full occupants talk politics guns , personal attempt enter discussion \? phill hallam baker
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject 're government 're help organization stratus computer , inc lines 57 distribution world nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article 1993apr18 isc br isc br com , steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) writes article 1993apr8 infonode ingr com jima b17d ingr com \( jim albea \) writes gee , jim , 'll check constitution 'll find order promote general welfare ordain establish constitution i'm surprised missed 's right first paragraph would thought would made least preamble almost got right , good try , follow advice preamble constitution read quoted let us forget preamble binding part constitution carries weight law poor tortured paragraph got one unfortunate passages english language witness blowhards like think vague phrases part law land really believe politician give lip service promoting general welfare within limits constitution \? sorry , buddy , blowhards managed include general welfare another portion constitution article section 8 congress shall power lay collect taxes pay debts provide common defence general welfare united states guess wanted make sure everyone understood meant said preamble since explicitly includes general welfare defense article , section 8 , guess 'll grant constitutional functions right \? james madison , federalist paper 41 urged echoed , power lay collect taxes , duties , , , pay debts , provide common defense general welfare united states , '' amounts unlimited commission exercise every power may alleged necessary common defense general welfare stronger proof could given distress writers labor objections , definition powers congress found constitution , general expressions cited , authors objection might color color objection , specification objects alluded general terms immediately follows , even separated longer pause \? nothing natural common first use general phrase , explain qualify recital particulars cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) subject welcome police state usa lines 89 reply hallam zeus02 desy de organization desydeutsches elektronen synchrotron , experiment zeus bei hera article ctron news ctron com , smith ctron com \( lawrence c smith \) writes paranoid assertion batf fired first unprovoked assault assumes batf death wish expected b anything peacefull citizens would accept search authorized court would turned tank broken door day one stupid paranoid assertion , surviving witnesses , batf tanks , aware either batf fbi using yesterday use maximum force first day got four officers killed surviving witnesses members cult pray tell \? \? stupidity attempt serve warant place ludicrously underarmed unprotected police underarmed \? , loaded bear every picture shows wearing bullet proof vests ! using concussion grenades full auto weapons , missing low yield tac nukes \? transparent attempt justification ridiculous amount force used , initially yesterday ashamed discussion whether bush would done anything differently basis panama , grenada , tripoli , etc decided bush would asked surgical used cruise missile , people suggested would used nuke warhead cruise , others pointed would cheap use 'em missing \? armoured vehicles ! anyone net cares suggest sure fire method bringing murderes four police officers justice perhaps could hear sure fire method keep bottled talk death surrender without giving justification looney tune religious stunt phil , 've reading postings months i'm convinced back anything , matter damaging may anyone else 's rights think hurt people n't like 's people attitude set preconditions holocaust , process place country , even , pitiful remains constitution slowing progress n't libertarian issue , others may argue line , strictly constitutional view democratic gov't , fbi batf wrong , wrong , wrong , even reasons trying arrest koresh 100 right anything leads deaths 17 children , nothing else touches stoney heart , wrong matter pushed button god 's sake , man , get morality back person murdered 17 children koresh kept brought deaths deliberately may consider complete bastard nice chap thats quite true n't pretend nice amateurs try want talk politics talking hard decisions whether lives troops risked attempting rescue children anyone held office president united states since fdr held threat usa allies threatened usa would risk nuclear holocaust order protect freedom beleive , sort threat nice chaps make gun nutters section us version chance \? cases society protected madmen koresh hitler consideration 17 children question tactics used would matter anything academic significance govt prevent people commiting mass suicide latest reports cult members shot attempting leave compound koresh fire proven would entail final nail coffin want promote koresh sort role model hero need hardly add koresh created holocaust case deliberate arson ranch phill hallam baker
nigel allen nigel allen canrem com subject hhs secretary shalala address aft 's school related personnel conference reply nigel allen nigel allen canrem com organization canada remote systems distribution talk lines 42 press release american federation teachers hhs secretary shalala address aft 's school related personnel conference national assignment , education writer contact jamie american federation teachers , 202 879 news advisory secretary health human services donna shalala speak 16th annual aft school related personnel conference 8 p , friday , april 23 , washington hilton shalala discuss hhs 's agenda helping children next four years aft 's school related personnel division includes school workers teacher aides , school bus drivers , school secretaries , school maintenance workers school food service workers thousand school employees attend conference held washington hilton , april 23 25 school workers attending conference come urban school districts child health nutrition , welfare reform availability head start programs major issues workshops scheduled conference include sessions addressing issues around chapter 1 school related personnel , especially minority men , serve student role models increasing problem school violence dealing abused children assisting children serious health problems complete conference schedule , contact jamie 202 879 american federation teachers represents 805 , 000 elementary secondary teachers , school related personnel , higher education faculty , nurses , state municipal workers 30 canada remote systems toronto , ontario 416 629 7000 629 7044
kaldis romulus rutgers edu \( theodore kaldis \) subject new study gay percentage organization rutgers univ , new brunswick , n j lines 44 article 1993apr20 8748 galileo cc rochester edu as010b uhura cc rochester edu \( caifone \) writes certainly hope n't , sir , supposed signify \? prefer person , euphemism heard thankfully , got gender right deviant disparaging towards political minorities , sexual deviants comprise political minorit shred self respect , 'd door associate girls indeed self respect find sort would inclined head door account views regarding aberrant behavior known homosexuality , would encourage indeed , would advise let door whack backside way needs airhead \? pretty soon find retreating back closet belong n't count , sweetheart oh , ca n't anything count , inevitable , part natural order things throughout history , nature always asserted n't arrogant assume foolish misguided generation change nature man practically every generation failed greater men n't able certainly happen , matter much may wish pretend otherwise moreover , i'm sweetheart views expressed herein theodore kaldis seriously kaldis remus rutgers edu believe major university ! rutgers ! remus rutgers edu ! kaldis would hold views \? \? \?
an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) subject bush 's wi reply an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 16 nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu previous article , garrett ingres com \( grep friend \) says article usenet ins cwru edu , an030 cleveland freenet edu \( b writes went post office friday , got passport apps savings already converted bye gosh mean i'm invited next white house barbecue \? real difference , garrett , knew time leave l \)
psg pitt edu \( paul galvanek \) subject janet reno killed waco children distribution na organization university pittsburgh lines 62 article fern camelot fern camelot bradley edu \( jill \) writes i'm saying i'm satisfied outcome , 's upsetting simply blaming wrong person oh jill \? let tell story one evening long country man , , convicted known violent lead police high speed chase breaking another law decided police right jobs enforce law two attempting resist arrest police use metal sticks force submission heard reason certain people country excuse refuse obey law , perfect example police oppression , police behave certain way would , nothing victim could possibly warranted response blows sticks got authorities funny , 's billy calling shots , group people bothering one , know broken law , asked left alone practice religion fit , government justified people 100 heavily armed simply gun grabbers dc thought people guns thay thought 's clinton administration blood dozens hand sudden 's people refused civil rights violated , 's fault , evil fanatics provoked mind liberal democrat clinton supporter puke , scum bag , piece garbage like rodney king could possibly provoked beating got , bunch could cause fifty one day stand ended burning deaths children , help police people say deserved got , hear clinton say blame rest solely koresch , cowardly piece work man shown , , blaming right people others defend actions batf , fbi justice department matter , word prove depth hypocrisy , double standard people like clintons would hold certain americans time allowing others please excuses offer victims 's clear days , comments president supporters groups , liberal democratic vision america certain select people expect civil rights enforced , administration intends enforce laws , apply constitution obey laws suits rooster warning ! order heir clinton personal safety remember maintain membership batf approved religious organizations batf approved religious services
matt galaxy nsc com \( matt freivald x8043 \) subject good neighbor political hypocrisy test nntp posting host snow nsc com organization thought police watchdog agency , u lines 212 article 1993apr19 gordian com mike gordian com \( michael thomas \) writes article voder nsc com , matt galaxy nsc com \( matt freivald x8043 \) writes article 1993apr16 gordian com mike gordian com \( michael thomas \) writes far set moral tone concerned , community collectively want put prostitution going front kids , \? community want see proliferation drugs among kids , \? right \? tell , standpoint drug dealer prostitute , difference gun pointed local city council feds \? something wrong , wrong period sustainable federal level ok geographical unit smaller \? peter nelson posted eloquent response point talk politics misc , need consume bandwidth problem egalitarian view tries deny fundamental dilemma democratic government people right exercise voice community , yet individuals right left serious dilemma precisely much takes place vacuum seriously word egalitarian look word use vast difference equal justice law meant , clear , intersection set liberal libertarian philosophies natural rights government \( constitutional interpretation particular \) fits philosophy philosophy engages serious practical error nine lawyers supreme court almost totalitarian authority , completely outside consent consensus people supreme court nominations amazing political fist fights days , controls court rules country people court may well trying best job , best benevolent , even approve every supreme court decision ever eventually , arise hold dear try supreme court cases jury , problem would great deal would create broad , non enumerated government powers level \( european democracies current de facto standard u \) essentially engaged fundamental mistake , except different body totalitarian , virtually unchecked \( except plurality election , death , retirement \) , government power community allowed stop activities i'm picking pocket \? n't like \? find morally repugnant \? like asking wind blows , unless prove fact engaging certain activities absolutely effect whatsoever human engagement activities human activities indeed fit category even , would empower make judgement fully autonomous activity \? defines picking pocket \? economic assets person 's assets , peace mind , stability , confidence child 's emotional environment , security , many things also part person 's assets \? gives right create moral environment parent strongly objects \? gives right create environment social unrest instability \? say effects , authority say \? empowered make value judgements \? would feel got gang together found xtianity \( insert favorite cause \) morally repugnant passed laws outlaw free exercise \? \( local level , since seems ok \) federal constitution explicitly prohibited , federal government would prevent , could muster enough local support pass amendment local constitution \( , say , 3 4 majority \) local government , would vote feet move neighborhood friendly system values ideal situation , far better mess right gang torch wielding friends , restrictive local laws personally would advocate vote , since view exercising government power neighbors done extreme care absolutely necessary believe protecting children victimization people callous disregard effects others would certainly leave well behaved massage alone , long detrimental effects neighborhood n't get debate whether would would vote away rights propriety whether even option define rights broadly , practical choice whether people infringe upon rights since rights overlap even rights defined narrowly , government empowered prevent others infringing rights fundamental question , whose authority power created support current situation natural rights supreme court \( rather original understanding supreme court , even better , supreme court jury \) , consenting nine lawyers washington , c create powers air fractal federalism scenario , broad consensus people \( e amendment process \) creates powers certainly cause , mike , people local neighborhood voice goes neighborhood deny create another concentrated centralized power keep locality abusing power ! ! ! mean centralized power , individual \? , mean federal government comes guns tell locals run neighborhood waco , tx nice example essence , using pit bull keep toy biting leg chances , pit bull going turn day , much less defense toy ideally , everyone would leave everyone else alone government coercive power kind would necessary never work , people different nature always want force views others case , nobody would try force view murder wrong anyone else fine force views others prosecute leave alone simple concept feel speech codes \? hate speech certainly could considered indication pit bull going turn day community allowed limit \? , \? create community public masturbation permitted cause personal autonomy , done anything different \? precisely autonomous activities referring \? list , perhaps get enough people agree truly autonomous pass constitutional amendment protecting feel david koresh \? deserve \? batf \( local version \) allowed toss jail think 's rocker \? koresh incident appears horrendous abuse government power , power possibly obtained means would abolish constitutionality knock warrants seems dubious , mention mere existence batf government 's propensity ignore word infringe second amendment power upheld body , incredible concentration power hands nine people , upheld much called civil rights \( read affirmative action \) legislation despite fourteenth amendment said anything public till \? get rid , get face agree getting rid public till still sure n't want come coffee \? might especially like neighborhood , might especially like , least agree let live kind life want point get rid public till , lose credibility say private affairs sure ready \? money certainly asset world , would bleak existence indeed michael thomas \( mike gordian com \) matt freivald thinking irrelevant integrity irrelevant free speech irrelevant private property irrelevant personal responsibility irrelevant futile assimilated opinions employer ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) subject continuing decay organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 22 reply an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu previous article , pyotr halcyon com \( peter hampe \) says military 's mission kill enemy escape surrender yes , \? still n't explained ca n't used enforce civil law certainly would done better job koresh call air strike chus pyotr pyotr halcyon com sometimes pyotr filipivich , sometimes owl optimist bagpiper beeper
lfoard hopper virginia edu \( lawrence c foard \) subject new study gay percentage organization itc uva community access unix internet project lines 52 article 15427 optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes article c5k5lc cyf murdoch acc virginia edu , lfoard hopper virginia edu \( lawrence c foard \) writes article 15378 optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes santa rosa \( cal \) press democrat , april 15 , 1993 , p b2 male sex survey gay activity low new natonal study male sexual behavior , thorough examination american men 's sexual practices published since kinsey report four decades ago , shows 2 percent men surveyed engaged homosexual sex 1 percent considered exclusively homosexual figures homosexuality study released wednesday alan guttmacher institute significantly lower 10 percent figure part conventional wisdom since published kinsey report 1 \) \? homosexuals lie 10 number hide disproportionate involvement homosexuals child molestation put shut evidence \? show study indicating link liking grown ups sex liking children saying 30 molested children male shows nothing since tells nothing molesters preference adults \( \) also lie 10 keep politicians scared politicians plenty scared one week 1 90 2 \) interesting see reaction 2 5million queers gather washington dc 6million us event unprecidented history many people marching n't homosexuals , members leftist agenda i'm sure non queers , vast majority queer join pythagorean reform church ! repent evil irrational numbers bean eating ways accept 10 heart ! call pythagorean reform church bbs 508 793 9568
an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) subject janet reno killed waco children organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 12 reply an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu previous article , dianem boi hp com \( diane mathews \) says aside fact disagree w , offer resign president rejected offer willing take responsibility , president balls enough stand decision contempt ignore
garrod dynamo ecn purdue edu \( david garrod \) subject welcome police state usa organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 48 article lll winken llnl gov , ed wente llnl gov \( ed suranyi \) writes article 1993apr20 030234 66491 cc usu edu slp9k cc usu edu writes article c5rusq m6m news cso uiuc edu , azoghlin uxa cso uiuc edu \( old freshman \( vof \) \) writes critisism easy solutions people would better fbi last months \? firstly , could backed regardless fault first assault \( one four atf officers died \) , backing longer option people inside , particularly koresh , criminal suspects could made case self defense , wanted , court law police responsibility capture arrest 've never heard case police knew criminal suspect building , still decided back continuing siege one alternatives actually took place , 's matter debate whether would ended better letting press \? letting koresh talk press \? maybe allowed talk press tv couple days would surrendered peacefully letting relatives followers talk \? seems isolate someone , try send crazy playing loudspeakers night tibetan chants , etc , don`t much stand behave crazy \( i`m sure sanity start \) suspicious government controls communication , sends press 2 miles away gut feeling knock warrant , sealed , would stand scrutiny don`t think knock warrants constitution writers mind gave us rights improper search seizure don`t think powerful central , high taxing government constitution writers mind rights citizens states restricted central government
an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) subject janet babies organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 22 reply an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu previous article , demon desire wright edu \( boomer \) says evidently janet 's concern babies slapped koresh made give go ahead ram n gas tactics \( larry king live telling sickening every word janet reno 's mouth little children , etc sounded like clinton talking made claims children beaten , etc , despite pronouncements social workers none children left compound abused real crime larry king , censored show one fucking question reno 's possible error two calls made good decision , n't take rocket scientist figure people going upset nope real questions
subject stimulus legislation \? brooks ufl edu organization nntp posting host ifas ufl edu lines 12 anyone know access online copy proposed jobs stimulus legislation \? please e mail directly anyone else interested , post information thanks , mike brooks note e mail address news header correct correct address brooks ifas ufl edu
gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) subject eight myths national health insurance \( pt ii \) nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) organization phds hall lines 291 v140pxgt ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( daniel b case \) writes gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) writes heard guy alberta came rare eye disease take repeated trips seattle get treated well , american private insurance plans cover travel expenses \? \? \? well , n't travel expenses whole treatment buy insurance live , based local rates tourists coming , say , utah find difference insurance cover fob provo get stuck hill mount sinai fall ill big apple extent affect system \? urgent care list necessary first place \? 's worth thinking 's regular practice hospital figure needs get facilities n't americans arrange advance operations \? think two standards applied , canada ca n't give beverly hills style treatment everybody 's big brother list 's like calling around town table dinner americans need far less advance time book operations would depend live , downtown toronto mile 101 , british columbia \( like , wy vs boston , \) , geography rears ugly head since health care providers private , depend adequate market size order sustain enough business since health care professionals equivalent take home pay american cousins , 's 're paid little provide services whether canadians would thrilled prospect health services toward americans , would willing pay , another issue entirely \) , must noted said partly grants province getting smaller grants , need attract foreigners make difference \? answered question private nonprofit foundations make money somehow , think 's time acted like private hospitals personally , i'm fed canadian socialists trying tell everyone health care free actually buying insurance \( 's one , bob rae ! ! \) true , thinking anybody compete provinces offer basic health coverage \? remember reading sort private health insurance actually illegal canada hear americans say 's illegal could wrong , never heard canadian source private insurance recently balked quebec liberals proposed aspects routine care also , insurance put place ndp \( labour \) governments power province effort 'cos wanted real socialized medicine 're buying insurance much coerced one insurance plan , optional optional doctors accept isolated religeous communities particular ask exemptions \( one e mail christian scientist edmonton verified indeed negative option \) guess argue right particular insurance , far 've come across north take pains keep tabs news home turns private insurers offering frills effective cartel n't really need compete , put , 're win win situation 're guaranteed turn profit believe , probably figured according sister yuppie , pat back point chamber commerce \( interesting side note new insurance companies started scratch since medicare became standard canada \? actually doubts new ones emerged since ww , scratch western canada , quite quebec part post 1980 quebec miracle \( nationalism , french capitalism \) la groupe des cooper built new tower eaton \( 's \) store les , able catch urban angel cbs 's 'd see well lit one double top ontario , still dominates business north canada old money kind place , 1989 free trade agreement saw lot odd labour unions establishment old money wanted preserve traditional one side , entrepreneurs internationally oriented businesses professionals final administration first mulroney government high percentage riches knew like make money , motivated mcdonald commission set brian 's initiative \( free trade 'til head count caucus 1984 election \) 's really insurance n't alternatives well , realize society 's like saying 's really national defence ca n't hire rambo squad instead even pacifist \( btw , always pacifists news arguing portion taxes , never people arguing health insurance alternatives 're talking press hostile whomever government , regardless party one redeeming characteristics , seems \( \) also , april 14 globe mail , letter director trauma services st michael 's hospital toronto responding article study comparing heart surgery california canada canadian doctor worried american analysts would seize results proof canada vital services doctor \( ca n't recall name \) said canada rationing vital services physician plainly see said system people refused treatment ca n't afford different system people refused treatment government ca n't afford result deliberate health insurance plan fairness , say us canadian systems situation way hit canadian system transient periods high demand , function doctors monopoly 's tight fist licencing obvious difference transient period , rationing nature mob battling patch dolls tm 've seen recently opposed rationing ability pay former transient situation large body insured patients deluge california health infrastructure , would result rationing among insured population smaller markets , much less flexibility dealing insured population california \( way , 1 3rd people canada much dense area \) correct resources fixed \( particular time window , function doctors monopoly licencing according market steady state \) either case refused treatment government day would shredded something like happen canadians bad , , realizing health care private insurance n't many people bought socialist socialized medicine know , know , monopoly power canadian doctors often leads problems system order get money government \( another case businessmen , scratched , becoming socialists \) right , 've pointed n't shifted locus problem one place \? n't really solved either way , transient situations hard deal since changes private medical care resource take place slower rate ability people fall sick esp light disasters \( e g , \) bad luck \( sudden wave heart disease \) doctor needs 4 6 years training , plus internship specialty training people often tend put prescription cold medicine insurance really n't need 's 've argued deductible copayments rather education , canadian fiscal conservatives arguing \( leftists \? ah , let 'em spend ! yeah , right ! \) also , note provinces cover high dollar threshold , 's private insurance covers like u still , adds oecd measures fact , buffalo may place us people get cherry jokes \( \) get sabres' feed replacement game espn tonight \( local metro ny coverage main espn game \) \( ndp cleaning tory spending mess \? thought understood canadian politics \) yeah , 's sad story saskatchewan tory leader grant devine pr campaign save sorry butt ndp taken neo conservative turn like , gonzalez anybody considered following singapore 's example going system company state buys basic catastrophic coverage everybody , also ira sort thing employer contribute medical expenses \? would tend discourage medical ira would limited use , 'd need lower catastrophic threshold else 'd still drain public purse someone exhausts ira also , singapore much mentality masses \( 've met indication n't mean \) 'd let die one good things last country create national health care system , decide , everybody else 's mistakes learn 's true question much u approach second capitalist approaches canada , france germany seriously , areas sufficient population two tiered system like french health policy prof , g shea , cited studies nejm indicate population 500 , 000 necessary adequate competition canada , four cities west great lakes population larger many cities us kind population yes , many pretty close lot smaller towns far bigger town take look detailed atlas better , take flight pittsburgh rochester toronto first time across lake ontario nyc , amazed increase density toronto region canada one group doctors calgary opened canada 's first us style mri clinic , alternative provincially owned one 's time ! 've doctor friends n't invest private practices end , 's money choose spend america 's cup , 's none business provincially owned sure 's law canada governments directly involved provision health care except military native term actually means facility gets public grants meet lack use kidding medical practice much conservative north best friend two mayo clinic rochester , mn , stranger high tech medicine boat comes first people expressing concern first wedge two tiered health care might violate canada health act , 's probably socialist offended private practices always take cash anyways particular facility \? canadian big government mentality often government even exist since french germans become less without sacrificing culture values , canadians 've pointed , law states illegal government provide health services except military natives look , nobody stopped clinic planned mri nobody stopped bought nobody seems stopping using , either much ado nothing thank goodness hockey playoffs started seemed currently unjustified , one anecdote told head partnership demonstrate mri showed image injured knee , happened belong manager bank approved loan said without , guy might wait month provincial mri , another length time treatment , muscles would rehabilitation would much harder n't first two , n't know i'm certain exaggeration somewhere , gao study canada cited often usenet find access mri problem 'll bet doctor relying people listened american trash talk cable puff chest bit already treatment regimens knee injuries without relying mri unfortunately , 've \) i'm \( gld je souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go ! ! ! gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) subject janet reno killed waco children organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 49 reply an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu previous article , ed wente llnl gov \( ed suranyi \) says , , ridiculous way considered played exceedingly minor role person kills ultimately responsible actions frankly , i'm sick lied bad clinton , 's worse , listen \( fbi \) words , one half hour fire come hands matter , hear ricks \( reno \) claiming another incremental step pressure bullshit pick 6 monday morning \? nobody would notice everyone would busy work , starting new week bullshit fbi hold back fire engines \? , let paraphrase sessions , n't hold back engines stand , blah , , blah , protect , n't allow engines enter safe fuck \? yes , bananas \? hell kind double talk \? , n't , blah , , huh \? watched clinton takes responsibility , even though n't decision bullshit , , take responsibility \? ! even though bullshit yes christ ed ed wente llnl gov
iastate edu \( aaron \) subject janet reno killed waco children organization iowa state university , ames , ia distribution na lines 42 article boi hp com dianem boi hp com \( diane mathews \) writes article 1993apr20 153450 27407 ncsu edu dsh eceyv ncsu edu \( doug holtsinger \) writes janet reno killed waco children responsible deaths resign immediately understood david koresh madman would anything children became provoked warning signs ignored provoked koresh killing children aside fact disagree w , offer resign president rejected offer willing take responsibility , president balls enough stand decision fact reno actually taking responsibility \( gee 's new one politician \) new thing member clinton 's administration actually respect backbone \( never thought 'd say someone bunch \) way understand happened discussed clinton planned waco clinton n't say , gave de facto approval operation things got messed , lot people died horrible deaths \( incorrect , please feel free correct 've able pick \) 've got couple questions whole thing \( 1 \) government feel needed assault compound \? \( 2 \) n't try flush first week fiasco instead waiting 50 days \( 3 \) janet reno jumped take responsibilty take heat away president sound anything like couple reagan 's aides \? aaron
an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) subject janet reno killed waco children organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 15 reply an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu previous article , iastate edu \( aaron \) says article boi hp com dianem boi hp com \( diane mathews \) writes 've got couple questions whole thing \( 3 \) janet reno jumped take responsibilty take heat away president sound anything like couple reagan 's aides \? , could n't possibly america voted change elected william george clinton
russotto eng umd edu \( matthew russotto \) subject welcome police state usa organization project glue , university maryland , college park lines 18 nntp posting host tea eng umd edu article c5rusq m6m news cso uiuc edu azoghlin uxa cso uiuc edu \( old freshman \( vof \) \) writes critisism easy solutions people would better fbi last months \? first , would n't gone davidians firearms violation object first place second , would n't executed search warrant via armed assault davidians sure third , would n't cut outside communication koresh certainly would n't gone tank time side since outside resupply , could wait indefinitely matthew russotto russotto eng umd edu russotto wam umd edu news readers expect disclaimer say police searches seizures make use force \( responsible bodily harm resulting following advice \)
russotto eng umd edu \( matthew russotto \) subject welcome police state usa organization project glue , university maryland , college park lines 27 nntp posting host tea eng umd edu article c5si9g hx dscomsa desy de hallam zeus02 desy de writes conveniently ignores murder four batf agents branch davidians unprovoked ambush say \? surrounding compound armed men throwing grenades n't provocation \? government allows tinpot dictators set shop declare private state drifted anarchy laws control ownership guns batf good reason beleive violated set obtain legal warrant attempted serve met gunfire rang doorbell 're smoking something legal us never rang doorbell even batf claimed knock search good reason batf warrant supporting made public matthew russotto russotto eng umd edu russotto wam umd edu news readers expect disclaimer say police searches seizures make use force \( responsible bodily harm resulting following advice \)
subject carpeting bosnia f36si cunyvm bitnet organization city university new york lines 2 anybody carpeting bosnia serbia \? mean like , carpet bombing serbian positions \?
turmoil halcyon com \( tim crowley \) subject welcome police state usa organization northwest nexus inc lines 20 nntp posting host nwfocus wa com csc canterbury ac nz writes article c5rusq m6m news cso uiuc edu , azoghlin uxa cso uiuc edu \( old freshman \( vof \) \) writes critisism easy solutions people would better fbi last months \? 1 withdraw 2 leave people compund lead lives choose 3 prosecute agents murder brandon , university canterbury , christchurch new zealand cheers brandon 's best suggestion seen ! ! ! ya turmoil halcyon com
pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) subject welcome police state usa lines 83 organization university tennessee division continuing education article dscomsa desy de hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) writes article veal 755 utkvm1 utk edu , veal utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) writes article c5si9g hx dscomsa desy de hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) writes government allows tinpot dictators set shop declare private state drifted anarchy laws control ownership guns batf good reason beleive violated set obtain legal warrant attempted serve met gunfire rang doorbell batf , letter 've sending people , says lost element surprise , went knocked door slammed faces strikes kind strange rely surprise serve warrant knocking door presumably b mount continuous state alert gunmen ready fire people casually walked ring doorbell let 's try batf concerned surprise intended serve warrant knocking door \? batf appears description events case , one mount ambush one n't alert \? expected b anything peacefull citizens would accept search authorized court would turned tank broken door day one phill , batf firefight bd forty five minutes find hard believe expecting peaceful citizens would n't shown live stock trailers would retreated immediately smart move unless meant part cover even narrow opening trucks simply good idea side opening truck would much better , like covered , batf fired left trailers knock door serve warrant \? every description 've heard indicates batf hang around trailers decided open matter , expect peaceful citizens , come live stock trailers \? expecting citizens , show hundred officers , clearly visible video carrying sub machineguns , 3 national guard helicopters \? sounds right minimum amount force would consider necessary serve warrant talk politics guns annual dinner ok , make sure 've got straight consider armed troops disguised vehicles multiple helicopters used serve search warrants peaceful citizens \( n't one entertaining shifts , described batf expecting , peaceful \) michael ordered use 5000 crack troops including members parachute regiment remove approx 250 peace protestors site wanted install cruise missiles even turned flack jacket monitor proceedings dangerous tool women tin opener single action probably cost position prime minister one elders church got arrested heroic action forces ever something national joke n't see past abuses excuse present ones hell , 're even discussing government david veal univ tenn div cont education info services group pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu still remember way laughed , day pushed elevator shaft i'm beginning think n't love anymore weird al
wdstarr athena mit edu \( william december starr \) subject law economics organization northeastern law , class '93 lines 234 nntp posting host nw12 326 1 mit edu reply thf2 midway uchicago edu i'm going mixing together stuff two ted frank 's articles , 1993apr15 midway uchicago edu \( response \) 1993apr16 midway uchicago edu \( response tim smith \) \( yes , know , boomer court n't call eminent domain walks like eminent domain like eminent domain quacks like eminent domain \) wdstarr tort cases really eminent domain cases \? bankruptcy \? contract \? eminent domain state mandated transaction one party required sell piece property owns another party , regardless whether first party wishes sell , price set state fail see doctrine found tort , bankruptcy contract cases general well , okay , sort bankruptcy , \? since courts supposed business preventing parties windfall settlements parties settlements arise wrongful acts parties \? wdstarr since said boomer 's reliance economics led unjust result i'm pointing alternative far unjust , traditional sense world atlantic cement 's act wrongful something society want build factory , create industry jobs cost compliance grossly disproportionate damage faced plaintiffs bang 's one places widely diverge believe courts , deciding civil dispute two parties , consider factor perhaps overriding factor issues believe court ignore irrelevant dispute boomer v atlantic cement co action brought one party , boomer , whose property rights violated ongoing basis another party , atlantic cement company facts supported boomer 's contention atlantic cement damaging property , boomer asked court order atlantic cement stop end story reason court consider issues society would want atlantic cement whether cost compliance disproportionate damage faced plaintiffs issues nothing case court bill , government stepped epa made regulation requiring multi million dollar cement plants shut cement dust , cost benefit ratio 15 1 , 'd arms okay judicial branch interfere way , legislative executive branches \? 'd arms \? assume \? quite contrary , 'd probably support action , since would based general doctrine decision believe would correct boomer idea people 's property rights violated reasons economic efficiency boomer boomer 's property rights believe court protected hypothetical epa ruling 've presented , 's american people 's collective property rights healthy physical environment good cost benefit ratio 15 1 wind cement dust air \? rule makes per se illegal ever operate cement plant state massachusetts came similar regulation , 'd arms complaining interference property rights , fifth amendment violations okay judicial branch interfere way , legislative executive branches \? libertarian present \? ted frank would per se illegal operate cement plant \? would n't mean buying land cement plant , would either buy enough land pollution would stay land , buy pollution surrounding \? tim smith takes one hundreds neighbors scrap plant furthermore , neighbors going want full benefit bargain resulting bilateral monopoly lawyers , sure , get negotiate agreements , windfall homeowners extort away profits plant would make , particularly good society yes \? courts supposed protect specific rights individuals , general interests nebulous society society cement plant without violating anyone 's rights , fine otherwise society somehow limp along one less cement plant \( see , ted , really libertarian ! \) 's whole point behind theorem world without transactions costs , land automatically put best use , transferred person person without friction legal regime matter , result world , one transactions costs , one wants legal regime approximate end result begin , order minimize transactions costs one wants legal regime approximate end result begin , order minimize transactions costs \? \? \? one speaking \? want legal regime protect people 's rights besides , 's theorem real application never never land perfectly rational actors real world \( 1 \) people going stubborn , , otherwise irrational economic point view \( 2 \) purpose courts protect right n't care show logically cattle 100 damage property per head , rationally sell grazing rights land , say , 150 per head still retain right tell plain n't want damned cattle property , price say everyone 's property rights protected plaintiffs made whole unnecessary settlement costs avoided , dispute claim plaintiffs made whole , fact , court action deprived rights owners property choose sell sell property price acceptable wdstarr , argument , tort plaintiff ever made whole , award damages involuntary treat nuisance plaintiff different tort plaintiff \? n't require specific performance analogous contractual situation tort \? last question first reason contract law would come dangerously close thirteenth amendment , argument , tort plaintiff ever made whole , award damages involuntary claim , 're least partially right faced situations wrong already done damage victim already taken place cannot reversed undone , courts try set equitable price tag loss suffered victim require pay price \( rather inflated price victim might prefer \) cases , sale already taken place irreversible , court simply tries ensure fair price paid , doctrines \( \) certain circumstances even civil forced pay punitive excessive prices \( b \) even genuine victim profit unjustified manner doctrines may worth discussing debating elsewhere , neither relevant cases like boomer wrongful act loss stemming still future reversed undone \( e , prevented happening \) order court types cases , court require potential victim 's property rights protected unless agrees sell mutually acceptable price need court guess equitable value loss force sides accept finding leave operation parties ask since courts supposed business ensuring unnecessary settlement costs avoided \? \( , 've always thought courts supposed business ensuring justice done \) unnecessary settlement costs unjust punitive cases like boomer , 're simply cost business fact atlantic cement co got position found barrel simply result poor business decision start cement plant without first trying negotiate boomer everyone else whose property rights 'd violating via operation plant 's nothing punitive unjust \( 2 \) completely sensible believe alleged right owners atlantic cement stay business avoid losing lot money due wrongful act , alleged right several hundred atlantic cement employees jobs disappear , trump rights people property damaged atlantic cement 's wrongful acts wdstarr anybody ever commits wrongful act entire set possessions person \? n't complaining excess punitive damages \? anybody wants commit wrongful act future required buy right victim , advance seller allowed set price privilege injustice , punitive damages 'd like posner , bill 's libertarian really \? n't know , anything , say cases like boomer \? wdstarr , cites example bilateral monopoly court correctly avoided i'm sure covered posner book tort law , presumably favorably , n't book front n't sound much like libertarian libertarians tend believe rights individual people , societies 've admitted understanding field generally referred law economics weak advocates use economical analysis one many tie breaker factors courts may use help reach decisions cases dispute , measured scale justice , evenly balanced , fine illustrated boomer , fine courts start viewing economics case important justice case wdstarr case justice case tied economics case atlantic cement committed tort causing damage pay millions \? compensate damage committed \? stated , tort ongoing atlantic cement wanted able continue violate boomer 's rights court may justified setting equitable price tag damage already committed , reason need set price tag future violations boomer 's rights force boomer sell price william december starr wdstarr athena mit edu
steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) subject earth also pollutes summary dixie lee ray \? \? \? \? \? nntp posting host thor isc br com organization aging , improving , inc lines 24 article 1993apr21 titan ksc nasa gov rodger scoggin ksc nasa gov \( rodger c scoggin \) writes article dzvb3b6w164w cellar org , techie cellar org \( william bacon \) says fury mother nature man 's contribution environmental pollution paltry compared nature exceptional book trashing planet , former atomic energy commision chairman dr dixie lee ray notes based available data , atomic energy commision hmm , would say i'm defender , worth noting unfair tar organization decidedly minority scientific views former one term washington governor , dr dixie lee ray dr ray 's political agenda well known documented likewise , lack objectivity scientific data well known jsh steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing data , sure cut uucp ! uunet ! isc br ! thor ! steveh bulls r hofferbert bell 509 838 8826
jarthur claremont edu \( william everett \) subject earth also pollutes organization harvey mudd college , claremont , ca 91711 lines 34 article 1993apr21 titan ksc nasa gov rodger scoggin ksc nasa gov \( rodger c scoggin \) writes article dzvb3b6w164w cellar org , techie cellar org \( william bacon \) says earth may spew alot substances atmosphere , quality toxic output easily make lack quantity excuse \? quality \? grade co2 grade b co2 \? may quite right impression co2 co2 furthermore , planet system carbon , sulfur chemicals acting billions years , newcomers system must adapt control order bring stability also , two wrongs make right , continuing practices despite overwhelming data ignorance \( non \) action \) reason believe system inherently stable ice ages occured without help humans b \) point human contribution co2 greenhouse gasses insignificant wo n't really make difference make less c \) overwhelming data \? see lots future , fascinating , considering ca n't predict weather two weeks advance william everett tan , rested , ready harvey mudd college nixon '96 opinions mine ca n't
rwd4f poe acc virginia edu \( rob dobson \) subject earth also pollutes organization university virginia lines 16 article dzvb3b6w164w cellar org techie cellar org \( william bacon \) writes fury mother nature clearly , man long way go match nature environment bullshit many lakes ceased able support life purely natural pollution \? man already done scores lakes also , much degredation cite done cows pigs think many cows around \? could cause people raise \? legalize freedom
gradient cis upenn edu \( jr \) subject earth also pollutes organization university pennsylvania lines 31 nntp posting host gradient cis upenn edu article murdoch acc virginia edu rwd4f poe acc virginia edu \( rob dobson \) writes article dzvb3b6w164w cellar org techie cellar org \( william bacon \) writes fury mother nature clearly , man long way go match nature environment bullshit many lakes ceased able support life purely natural pollution \? man already done scores lakes also , much degredation cite done cows pigs perhaps heard dead sea may wrong , believe n't believe humans hand , although possible since great cedar forests lebanon memory time christ earlier , point , nature may , man certainly creative credit heavy metals , mention radioactivity , wonderfully persistent fatal \( invented radioactivity heavy metals , concentrated would lethal threat \) general find mr bacon 's arguments rhetorical , devoid sense , therefore trivial btw , reason discussion phl misc \? long , jr
subject earth also pollutes rodger scoggin ksc nasa gov \( rodger c scoggin \) nntp posting host 128 159 2 197 lines 14 article 1993apr21 isc br isc br com , steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) says i'm defender , worth noting unfair tar organization decidedly minority scientific views former one term washington governor , dr dixie lee ray dr ray 's political agenda well known documented likewise , lack objectivity scientific data well known correct , apologize problems \( however inherent \) continuous misleading data order support statement nuclear safe clean cheap boot 10 15 cents per kilowatt hour cheap neither nuclear power plants far safe clean 'll let nuclear power plants speak way uranium mines
mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com \( mark wilson \) subject new study gay percentage organization ncr engineering manufacturing atlanta atlanta , ga lines 20 1993apr20 cs nott ac uk eczcaw mips nott ac uk \( wainwright \) writes article optilink com , cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes yes rest homosexual community pass laws impose moral codes , requiring hire , rent , otherwise associate homosexual , yes , face homosexuals stop trying impose morals , face post based premise laws stand discriminate anybody , argument falls immediately try eliminate discrimination existing laws instead trying add discrimination favors group mob rule n't prettier merely mob calls government ai n't charity using someone else 's money wilson 's theory relativity go back far enough , 're related mark wilson atlantaga ncr com
troi cc rochester edu \( andrew simchik \) subject new study gay percentage organization university rochester rochester , new york lines 74 nntp posting host troi cc rochester edu apr 20 20 07 19 1993 romulus rutgers edu kaldis romulus rutgers edu \( theodore kaldis \) writes article 1993apr20 8748 galileo cc rochester edu as010b uhura cc rochester edu \( caifone \) writes certainly hope n't , sir , supposed signify \? prefer person , euphemism oh , please try ludicrous significant , term employed avoid awkward construction girlfriend wife heard thankfully , got gender right deviant deviant someone fit accepted norm definition , would certainly deviant , bisexuality accepted norm american society far term , course , really negative aspects inherent presume intended term abuse 's great pity feel tactics necessary , hardly surprising since factual basis absurd beliefs disparaging towards political minorities , sexual deviants comprise political minorit may attempt emulate style discourse term abuse \? ahem ! post responded highly amusing one homosexuals political clout would amused would explain political clout political minority different shred self respect , 'd door associate girls indeed self respect yet call girls ! feminists would arms find sort would inclined head door account views regarding aberrant behavior known homosexuality , would encourage indeed , would advise let door whack backside way needs airhead \? cough , cough well , well , certainly fine , upstanding fellow , , sir like many fine , upstanding fellows , reading comprehension perhaps explicit pointing females constitute political minority country last checked , obvious lack respect minorities equates lack respect women , course , conceptual stretch logic , given slow de far , figure start simple work n't worry , 'll get ! pretty soon find retreating back closet belong n't count , sweetheart oh , ca n't anything count , inevitable , part natural order things throughout history , nature always asserted n't arrogant true , bit nature asserting homosexuality always part human society , always , natural order 're naive enough believe otherwise , go right ahead 'll try loudly behind back inevitable anyone would think idea talking n't seen fact one , dispense bullshit , tell us already know , 're clueless little slime mold concept reality beyond donna reed show live little , come back tell us natural order things 're bubble , 's really going rock world come assume foolish misguided generation change nature man practically every generation failed foolish misguided oh , much religious figure believe \? know much nature man \? 're almost amusing worth effort crushing brain greater men n't able certainly happen , matter much may wish pretend otherwise gee , sound awfully sure methinks bigot doth protest much admit 're scared shitless 've sorry little life wrong , 're trying escape fear blind faith know , deep , based nothing , nothing go ahead , clutch unfounded empty breast ignore myriad societies accepted homosexuality equally valid even mystical ignore solid , inescapable fact hat 've existed long humans fear us go ahead laugh us makes feel better know 're whistling dark 's one group 's stamped whenever appears , form , 's group fancy morally superior 're group , 're slowly steadily stamped preach , little man wo n't long moreover , i'm sweetheart 's first truth 've told far n't hate , sir i'm bisexual , embrace man alike nothing n't understand love deny validity would crush us , human beings one , imagined divinity 's fools like stir ire idiots small minds , ca n't think , know nothing real world operates , hate told like sheep , hate everyone refuses sheep 're part norm 're part minority yes , minority ! supreme , arrogance hubris , always , intelligence know clown 's costume wow , ! sometimes wonder waste talents like really interest continuing effortless discussion , proverbial battle wits unarmed opponent come back swords e facts shall battle till , sight drewcifer p entertaining , however considered taking road \? hear back
cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) subject watergate \( temper tantrums 1960 's distribution usa organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 17 article 1993apr19 pony ingres com , garrett ingres com writes one said nixon n't use office presidency personal gain lie senate committee issued indictment listed nixon 's crimes relevant ones 1 \) violating oath office 2 \) abusing presidential powers personal gain monetary advantage n't think anyone would dispute violated oath office , abused powers 's personal gain nothing inevitable mistake whose time garrett johnson clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent ,
cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) subject concentrate child molesters \? organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 27 article avt hilbert cyprs rain com , joec hilbert cyprs rain com \( joe cipale \) writes article optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes however , monogamous homosexual male sex rare practical purposes , homosexuality spreads aids clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent , fucking homophobic moron ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! iv drug use \? tainted blood \? multi sexual partners \? knew anything \? also spread aids say anything different \? go back read wrote statement homosexuality spreads aids made false fact methods spreading well talking , would dangerous right , persistent boil skin humanity needs joe cipale typical homosexual response clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent ,
cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) subject new study gay percentage organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 21 article 1993apr19 hemlock cray com , rja mahogany126 cray com \( russ anderson \) writes article 1993apr17 news cs brandeis edu , st923336 pip cc brandeis edu \( blort ! eeeep ! hwaaah \) writes actually , rather surprised see article subject \( e new , survey saying roughly 1 men gay \) front page new york times recently \( think thurs , 15 april \) headline something effect new survey finds 1 men gay anyone else see difference 1 men gay 1 men surveyed say gay \? ny times think one closet \? see survey survey show 1 4 , supposed believe one survey , done poor assumptions , population , 40 years ago society far repressed homosexuality yeah , right russ anderson disclaimer statements reflect clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent ,
rlglende netcom com \( robert lewis glendenning \) subject welcome police state usa organization netcom online communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 11 anybody heard explanation fbi using tear gas 35 mph wind \? n't seem like good tactics explanations \? lew lew glendenning rlglende netcom com perspective worth 80 iq points niels bohr \( somebody like \)
as010b uhura cc rochester edu \( tree schnopia \) subject new study gay percentage nntp posting host uhura cc rochester edu organization university rochester rochester , new york lines 50 network ucsd edu sdcc13 ucsd edu \( captain \) writes find interesting say 2 5 million queers march washington largest figure 've seen press 1 million know liberal press numbers \) another thing , 1 250 million 2 5 million 6 maybe 's got 2 5 million number also , number cited actual report 1 5 would 3 75 million march washington , wonder much media going inflate numbers time last time , pro abortion rally , doubled actual number people showed stories coming press news really makes one wonder 's watching watchers playing pathetic number games \? number people showing mow hardly constitutes entire queer populace doubt constitutes handful us i'm queer , wo n't , simply n't time transportation hell makes think participants mow minimum number \? face , people , 're everywhere always us think numbers constantly growing , diminishing children grow join us hell , children may grow join us best way deal phenomenon fear blind , realize nothing fear 're perverts , 're dangerous , 're , 're human like er , idiots like cramer kaldis rant like wo n't one iota good drewcifer p still ca n't get fact people actually believe every queer u would show mow , numbers meaningful , come think , us countries \? tree bi andrew simchik schnopia ! as010b uhura cc rochester edu treewater words n't made cowards happy rhodes
cs ucsd edu \( michael \) subject welcome police state usa organization cse department , uc san diego lines 18 nntp posting host beowulf ucsd edu article c5si9g hx dscomsa desy de hallam zeus02 desy de writes conveniently ignores murder four batf agents branch davidians unprovoked ambush tripe deleted phill , trying convince everyone net fact abject moron reason \? repeating rubbish may make something fact whatever posting , n't wash , save michael department computer science engineering university california , san diego cs ucsd edu \( 619 \) 455 1500 guns outlawed , government outlaws guns
00cmmiller leo bsuvc bsu edu subject rodney king \( marine gay bashing \) distribution usa organization ball state university , muncie , univ computing svc 's lines 16 article 888 ncratl atlantaga ncr com , mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com \( mark wilson \) writes 1993apr17 bsu ucs 00cmmiller leo bsuvc bsu edu writes sorry , n't see charge cops saw trying get away people beating guess see want see miller saw , see start video starts , king lying ground , surrounded cops noone beating king gets charges one officers \( powell \? \) falling back officer pulls strikes king blow appears land near shoulders head
kmitchel netcom com \( kenneth c mitchell \) subject drugs legalized , \? \( good neighbor \) organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 37 dave \( dos major panix com \) wrote wdstarr athena mit edu \( william december starr \) writes however , legalizing sticking drugs gas stations bought like cigarettes plain silly plus , never heard recommended dosage drugs like crack , ecstasy , meth lsd 60 minute report said worked cocaine cigarettes , pot heroin , government could adopt radical probably unamerican idea citizens free live lives wish , simply cocaine , marijuana , heroin , lsd , etc please explain idea allowing recreational drugs bought like cigarettes plain silly , works fine nicotine i'm favor drug legalization , see problems hope people disposed would simply overdose quickly , done , making mess 's actually quite simple sell drug use licenses anybody age 18 wants one costs 100 're required attend week night classes effects drugs human body end class , sign informed consent waiver acknowledging 've told drugs bad , want anyway , right state paid medical care whatever might happen result drugs , right collect welfare unemployment lose job result using drugs 'd also give right drive car anybody caught using drugs without license choice pay 1000 fine accept drug user 's license , go prison ken mitchell powers delegated united states kmitchel netcom com constitution , prohibited states , citrus heights , ca reserved states respectively , people
ee ubc ca \( john paul morrison \) subject limiting govt \( employment \( concentrate \) organization ubc electrical engineering radio lab lines 24 distribution world nntp posting host ee ubc ca article rigel tamu edu gmw0622 rigel tamu edu \( mr grinch \) writes likely places important state issue whether state income tax instead legalize popular vice fund raising , vice decisive victory ! jsh mr grinch p 's safely dead , expect david koresh become hero popular folk , atf generally equated santa anna dead \? saw david koresh local 7 11 john paul morrison university british columbia , canada hey hey ! ! ho ho ! ! electrical engineering tax spend liberals ee ubc ca got go ! !
ns1 cc lehigh edu \( matt \) subject comment clinton reno batf waco organization lehigh university lines 115 input 6 1200 7 title letter editor author matthew l date april 20 , 1993 letter fbi , david koresh said want pull back heavens show anger \? ! fear '' 51 day standoff federal agents branch davidians ended april 19 appeared mass suicide fire multi million dollar standoff , things remain cleaning mess , assigning blame onset april 19 tear gas attacks federal agents , president clinton already started passing buck saying attorney general fbi knew going done , decision entirely made tactical decision '' enter attorney general janet reno branch davidians died , reno said took decision ``i approved said adding advise clinton details '' fact , told clinton ``the best way go '' fire roaring branch davidian 's compound clinton said loss breath ``the law enforcement agencies involved waco siege recommended course action pursued today '' later went say ``i stand reno 's decision '' begin \? february 28 agents bureau alcohol , tobacco firearms \( batf \) launched full scale , high profile assault branch davidian 's compound raid much assault group suspected possessing illegal weapons assault planned media circus used propaganda device batf show might purpose onset raid , heavily armed batf agents made way inside compound without identifying state warrant long shooting began silently , agents made way compound 's buildings started charging buildings throwing concussion grenades ordering cult members come buildings unknown persons dressed black ninja combat attack , throwing grenades brandishing firearms , would assume people criminals attempt defend \? tactics employed batf provoked battle initial assualt batf successful unfortunately , lives lost sides , assault success , liberal media would praised batf showing footage batf agents away bunch gun wielding religious nuts course , violation cult 's rights would overlooked media would proclaim america 's fortune super cop organizations like batf systematically groups branch davidians far see , batf fbi dropped ball like philadelphia 1985 move crisis left 11 dead , 250 homeless , city block razed appears batf adopted shoot first tactic knock raids execute search warrants n't let batf convince knock raid justified knock assaults make sense looking , say , drugs easily hidden disposed seconds batf looking illegal weapons , drugs could hidden flushed toilet matter seconds ever happened ``this police ! surrounded '' \? policy knock raids , federal local agencies , restricted , use military firepower presumed innocent citizens scary idea , davidians justified using lethal force ensure fourth ammendment rights ``the right people secure persons , houses , papers , effects , unreasonable searches denied matthew l newline end matthew lehigh edu good prime call 2 756839 1 410 webster street public key available bethlehem pa upon request
stephen orchid ucsc edu \( \) subject ca n't ways news enemy , news supporter organization santa cruz lines 80 nntp posting host orchid ucsc edu article optilink com walsh optilink com \( mark walsh \) writes article darkstar ucsc edu , stephen orchid ucsc edu \? going national media , turn around use support position present \? seems somewhat contradictory n't believe contradictory basis quality media reporting varies greatly based subject hand media proven accurate areas presenting raw , undisputed data one good example would weather page high low temperatures previous day large number locations posting little evidence show error believe true speak physical data , sense pure science speak data revolve around social sciences careful american media failed us analysis complex events , however i'm sure come many news stories left us angry many facts cases come mind invasion panama , war iraq , disaster waco , issues surrounding acceptance gays military , war drugs , many others quite agree cases contain politics , social science information , sociology , etc best reflections group reports pointed , difficult report temperature 98 degrees 60 degrees people believe story bring light regarding new sex survey i'm sure due data article , would venture guess data presented deviate survey , however , think would folly blind faith single 's analysis data particular case , little analysis , reader left draw convictions yes survey presented , according mr cramer , value called median one used makes us believe 1 2 males 7 3 plus sex partners 1 2 males 7 3 less sex partners homosexuals purported make 1 case , majority people 7 3 plus sex partners heterosexual feeling median intended word usage little evidence support mr cramer claims gay promiscuity hetero promiscuity many netters , mr cramer included , often forget american media merely number businesses , 's purpose life make money owners revenues come largely advertisers merely want maximum useful exposure per dollar media like fast food quality food \( reporting \) improve customers demand otherwise , business usual good point tried bring , network news program show , true news media business becomes skewed loyalties lie old statement man \( cannot remember statment exactly \) warns merger business news reporting , obvious consequences master news going serve end advertiser bias news group
kebarnes msuvx1 memst edu subject drugs crime new approach \( drugs legalized \) organization memphis state university lines 291 wdstarr athena mit edu \( william december starr \) writes article 1993apr19 msuvx1 memst edu , kebarnes msuvx1 memst edu said i'm creating class noncommercial drugs would include currently illegal ones , would legal possess , grow , produce , sell bomb pushers back barter age ! \( tax production , \) um , \? 's wrong act selling recreational drugs , even mercenary reasons \( e g , getting rich \) \? \( note selling , mean selling product consenting adult mutually agreeable price point effort pre prevent thread getting onto flamefest pushing drugs like \) users subjected special taxation \? william december starr note repost earlier response mr starr , properly formatted apologies 've seen following explain position war drugs , offer drugs crime new approach ken barnes given 1 trade illegal drugs responsible much crime nation 2 people want drugs \( particularly people predisposed addiction \) find way get , whether legally available 3 despite current law enforcement efforts , drugs readily available want 4 addiction drugs , legal illegal , responsible significant drain productive resources country , occurs variety ways , cocaine addicted babies unable learn , spread disease among addicts , tragic consequences alcohol abuse tobacco smoking 5 general economic principle government whatever subsidized get , whatever taxed get less effective confronting nation 's drug problem , way must found utilize additional powers government make drug dealing drug use less attractive country 's current efforts combat legal drugs succeeded respects , \( greater awareness health consequences smoking , designated driver programs helped reduce drunk driving , example \) , cannot said war illegal drugs remains core group illegal drug users support international networks smugglers , pushers , , processors , , gangsters networks marketing activities , include drive shootings , corrupting law enforcement authorities , smuggling weapons , directly indirectly responsible large proportion crimes committed country every day clearly , illegal drugs rising crime linked takes moment 's reflection recognize linked link money country 's failed effort prohibit alcohol consumption , black market created , greedy local , like gangsters era , enormously illegal trade victims trade include innocent people unfortunate enough caught crossfire , , would argue , drug users black market , violent monopoly drug lords , drug users might thieves , robbers , prostitutes murderers become order pay high prices drug lords demand absence drug lords , would , believe , simply people problem , either moral problem medical problem , criminal problem let clear however , advocating let criminals preying society many years prohibition hook contrary , new approach advocate one would result either government private industry getting business promoting crack cocaine , presently illegal drug matter neither approach sees law abiding citizens handing freedom privacy effort track illegal drug users , land free home brave looks like police state proposal 1 possession use presently illegal drugs , buying selling remains illegal grow marijuana \( many already today \) , drug users legally import poison choice long pay , barter economy drug experimenters develops 2 barter economy supplies drug users , black market profits enriched drug lords drugs obtained next nothing , buy \? nevertheless , seek sell noncommercial drugs even relatively low prices therefore , 3 law enforcement activity concentrated individuals continue buy sell , also crimes committed drug users poor afford even low prices strategy begins differentiate drug dealers , , drug users , victims 4 upon arrest crime , suspects permitted choose whether undergo drug test choose cooperate informed upon conviction crime accused , found drug user , institutionalized clean , begin serve sentence choose cooperate already drug free , begin serve sentence right away choose undergo drug test convicted face stiffer fines serve longer sentences 5 institutionalization drug using criminals serves several purposes drug using criminals \( includes drunk drivers \) separated sources supply , thus reducing total number drug users society large , consequently decreasing demand drugs street , putting remaining drug dealers business institutionalization provides incentive drug using criminals straighten , becoming part general prison population helping protect society crime , institutionalization could also serve deter drug users becoming criminals , since drug using criminals , unlike criminals , would delayed prior serving sentences additional time takes sober institutionalization drug using criminals separate general prison population would also provide closely monitored pool addicts could volunteer research studies new techniques treatments addictive disease , potential benefit others 6 dealers illegal drugs generally drug users , particularly true drug bosses running large illicit organizations proposal , dealers would readily identifiable , since upon arrest would presumably pass drug test , else decline take order avoid explain possession drugs apparent use declining take test , would course face stiffer penalties case attempted sale noncommercial drug would stand merits , outcome suspect 's drug test could provide additional evidence prosecution 7 cigarette taxes contributed decline smoking country making cigarettes costly time providing revenue anti smoking campaigns , noncommercial drugs taxed , money generated used combat use enforcement tax voluntary basis however , used excuse infringe rights privacy noncommercial drug users , since would effect prohibition instead , drug users encouraged pay tax reminding drugs ever found possession course routine police operations , required pay tax immediately else forfeit drugs destroyed drug dealers found selling noncommercial drugs taxes paid , face additional prosecution evading tax strategy adding tax evasion drug dealing charges already use jurisdictions , effectiveness currently limited illegality drug possession revenue drug possession taxes import would used fund anti drug advertising campaigns , provide support private sector drug treatment programs unable afford treatment 8 taxpayer subsidies drug producers must ended federal support tobacco farming immoral wasteful era tight budgets , marijuana crops grown federal lands many states must likewise eliminated proposal would effect permitting use illegal drugs , would hold users drugs responsible actions , believe , would reduce harm drugs society , particularly crime caused illegal drug trade long remain free nation , relatively borders , freedom citizens travel , always drug problem whether takes form heroin addicts dying abandoned buildings , drunk drivers killing maiming others streets , emphysema patients struggling breath lifetime smoking , results needless suffering death society must recognize society permits us harm drugs , already \( regardless drug laws \) , must take stand harm drugs drug users cause others must particularly oppose vicious violent prey weakness drug users taking profits deadly trade , proposal goes long way towards shutting powerful criminal organizations question whether drug use moral medical problem depends group drug users 're talking different drugs different effects , addictive others drug also often varies individuals , people drink alcohol moderation , others find cannot resist bottle nicotine , former surgeon general c everett declared heroin , legal drug known harmful effects , people stop smoking alone , others continue smoke even treatment lung cancer individuals stop taking drugs , may argue chosen use , represents moral failure part , unwillingness face difficulties life addicts , may chosen use drugs first time , time discover addiction late cannot hold responsible disease , would blame someone drowning inability swim perhaps known go near water , perhaps someone warned danger , present circumstances warnings help neither help drug dealers shore tossing weights standard disclaimer x , dna \( \) ken barnes , bldg conservative libertarians ' kebarnes memstvx1 memst edu pro balance ! \( \) memphis , tn 711 compuserve com find television educating every time somebody turns set , go room read book groucho marx
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject eight myths national health insurance \( pt ii \) organization university toronto chemistry department lines 97 article 1993apr21 news columbia edu gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) writes v140pxgt ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( daniel b case \) writes also , april 14 globe mail , letter director trauma services st michael 's hospital toronto responding article study comparing heart surgery california canada canadian doctor worried study nejm , think , noted frequency heart surgery patients seventy increase income california \( guess richer people heart disease california \) \) whereas frequency surgery patients seventy canada relatively uniform across income distribution heart surgery frequent california , mortality outcomes essentially american analysts would seize results proof canada vital services doctor \( ca n't recall name \) said canada rationing vital services physician plainly see said system people refused treatment ca n't afford different system people refused treatment government ca n't afford result deliberate health insurance plan fairness , say us canadian systems situation \( ndp cleaning tory spending mess \? thought understood canadian politics \) one group doctors calgary opened canada 's first us style mri clinic , alternative provincially owned one 's time ! 've doctor friends n't invest private practices end , 's money choose spend america 's cup , 's none business provincially owned sure 's law canada governments directly involved provision health care except military native term actually means facility gets public grants meet lack use kidding medical practice much conservative north best friend two mayo clinic rochester , mn , stranger high tech medicine boat comes first people expressing concern first wedge two tiered health care might violate canada health act , 's probably socialist offended private practices always take cash anyways particular facility \? canadian big government mentality often government even exist potential problem see private mri calgary self referral problem facility doctors financial interest , basically unethical canada small population , likely private facilities involving small number doctors , thus n't think self referral problem , epidemic us , could ever get hand look , nobody stopped clinic planned mri nobody stopped bought nobody seems stopping using , either much ado nothing thank goodness hockey playoffs started experiment certainly watched carefully seemed currently unjustified , one anecdote told head partnership demonstrate mri showed image injured knee , happened belong manager bank approved loan said without , guy might wait month provincial mri , another length time treatment , muscles would rehabilitation would much harder n't first two , n't know i'm certain exaggeration somewhere , gao study canada cited often usenet find access mri problem 'll bet doctor relying people listened american trash talk cable puff chest bit already treatment regimens knee injuries without relying mri unfortunately , 've \) i'm \( likely happened sponsors private mri include doctors anticipated alberta would need mri 's , instead waiting health planners realize needed another one two , saw business opportunity would secure business public insurance side things , could supplement people businesses want pay cash gerald
quirke kosmos wcc govt nz subject new study gay percentage organization city council , public access lines 35 distribution world nntp posting host kosmos wcc govt nz piatt gdc com \( gary piatt \) writes clayton cramer \( cramer optilink com \) wrote rest homosexual community pass laws impose moral codes , requiring hire , rent , otherwise associate homosexual , yes , face homosexuals stop trying impose morals , face ahh , 's good goose necessarily 's good n't want homosexuals impose moral codes \( diabolical ideas equal rights \) , yet willing impose moral codes detect double standard \? exactly american constitution say right association \? homosexuals , whether clayton likes , much members society right participate equal opportunity pursue goals one saying clayton forced associate private life \( one suspects gays question would object also 8 \) \) , proclaiming general right associate public sphere \( includes housing , hiring , etc \) , 's giving right non association priority rights equal access opportunity historically , people associate publically disliked groups little ill effect , however cutting group normal commerce severe impact lives clayton , exactly right non association public sphere take priority homosexual 's rights equal opportunity \? tony quirke , wellington , new zealand quirke kosmos wcc govt nz usenet like herd performing elephants diarrhea massive , difficult redirect , awe inspiring , entertaining , source mind boggling amounts excrement least expect gene spafford , 1992
sdcc13 ucsd edu \( captain \) subject new study gay percentage organization university california , san diego lines 55 distribution world nntp posting host sdcc13 ucsd edu article murdoch acc virginia edu lfoard hopper virginia edu \( lawrence c foard \) writes article 15427 optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes article c5k5lc cyf murdoch acc virginia edu , lfoard hopper virginia edu \( lawrence c foard \) writes article 15378 optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes santa rosa \( cal \) press democrat , april 15 , 1993 , p b2 male sex survey gay activity low new natonal study male sexual behavior , thorough examination american men 's sexual practices published since kinsey report four decades ago , shows 2 percent men surveyed engaged homosexual sex 1 percent considered exclusively homosexual politicians plenty scared one week 1 90 2 \) interesting see reaction 2 5million queers gather washington dc 6million us event unprecidented history many people marching n't homosexuals , members leftist agenda i'm sure non queers , vast majority queer find interesting say 2 5 million queers march washington largest figure 've seen press 1 million know liberal press numbers \) another thing , 1 250 million 2 5 million 6 maybe 's got 2 5 million number also , number cited actual report 1 5 would 3 75 million march washington , wonder much media going inflate numbers time last time , pro abortion rally , doubled actual number people showed stories coming press news really makes one wonder 's watching watchers jon life something ca n't master get sleep fran tm ucsd edu anything good useful ucsd edu made chocolate fortune aol com boot head one else would crazy enough claim opinions 42
lfoard hopper virginia edu \( lawrence c foard \) subject new study gay percentage organization itc uva community access unix internet project lines 32 article 1993apr20 cs nott ac uk eczcaw mips nott ac uk \( wainwright \) writes article codewks nacjack gen nz , system codewks nacjack gen nz \( wayne mcdougall \) writes hmmm , statistics \? offer references studies 've seen indicate higher proportion homosexuals prison general population , n't think allows default refer prison normal situation n't seen anything suggests default proportion lower general population \( although seems plausible \) anyway , say , provide references \? arguement \? simply statement fact homosexuals prison mean homosexuals immoral liable commit crime one must remember prison necessarily reflection type people criminals statistics crime \? also question cause effect lock mostly straight guy 10 years guys , ask ten years later ever sex guy closing eyes pretending girl sucking still counts sex guy survey join pythagorean reform church ! repent evil irrational numbers bean eating ways accept 10 heart ! call pythagorean reform church bbs 508 793 9568
lfoard hopper virginia edu \( lawrence c foard \) subject new study gay percentage organization itc uva community access unix internet project lines 23 article optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes article 1993apr17 news cs brandeis edu , st923336 pip cc brandeis edu \( blort ! eeeep ! hwaaah \) writes would n't one expect heterosexual men gay men promiscuous simply due larger group potential partners \? thought matt might except gay men much promiscuous straight men shows damaged screwed gay men starting sound like little child wants ice cream kick scream enough think people believe sorry proof vigorous n't hold water insist cats dogs day , n't make join pythagorean reform church ! repent evil irrational numbers bean eating ways accept 10 heart ! call pythagorean reform church bbs 508 793 9568
lfoard hopper virginia edu \( lawrence c foard \) subject new study gay percentage organization itc uva community access unix internet project lines 34 article apr 20 20 07 19 1993 romulus rutgers edu kaldis romulus rutgers edu \( theodore kaldis \) writes article 1993apr20 8748 galileo cc rochester edu as010b uhura cc rochester edu \( caifone \) writes belong n't count , sweetheart oh , ca n't anything count , inevitable , part natural order things wrong throughout history , nature always asserted quite true evolution made decided homosexuality place , otherwise would disappeared quite quickly animals exhibit homosexual behavior humans existed , human race gone n't arrogant assume foolish misguided generation change nature man practically every generation failed quite true 2000 years religious idiocy changed nature man tried rid us 2000 years failed join pythagorean reform church ! repent evil irrational numbers bean eating ways accept 10 heart ! call pythagorean reform church bbs 508 793 9568
starowl rahul net \( michael adams \) subject new study gay percentage nntp posting host bolero reply starowl rahul net organization service actuarial consulting x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 26 21 apr 93 00 07 20 gmt , theodore kaldis observed as010b uhura cc rochester edu \( caifone \) writes heard thankfully , got gender right deviant bigots n't classified deviants \? sad disparaging towards political minorities , sexual deviants comprise political minorit , 's hear march washington assuming still considering homosexuality bisexuality subsets sexual deviants \? shred self respect , 'd door associate girls indeed self respect trust many self respecting women might take sort offense use term girls sentence michael adams \( starowl a2i rahul net \) enterprise , alabama always listen experts 'll tell ca n't done , lazarus long \( robert heinlein \)
subject get \? medkeffjs hirama hiram edu \( jeff medkeff \) organization hiram college nntp posting host hirama hiram edu lines 54 article wetware com , drieux wetware com \( drieux , drieux \) writes article 1 hirama hiram edu , went stepped article senator bedfellow mit edu , wdstarr athena mit edu \( william december starr \) writes never knew soldiers supposed salute civilians except commander chief ding ding , planet earth calling agree civilians , still president , unless things changed whole lot arrival , n't recall current president gots much civilian status 1 far member armed forces concerned , president whatever h wants recently rather insisted treated something mere civilian moves , salute , n't , pick ca n't pick , paint hilary asleep time ciao drieux 1 nothing personal jeff , like living countries head state civilian , sorta limits habit using military first choice solving domestic problems like living country head state military officer point using military first choice solving domestic problems n't go branch davidians tank , \? jeffrey medkeff bitnet medkeffjs hiramb po box 1098 internet medkeffjs hiramb hiram edu hiram , oh pale thought wrong fight u roaring bill \( killed \) thought right
tzs stein u washington edu \( tim smith \) subject janet reno killed waco children organization university washington school law , class '95 lines 12 nntp posting host stein u washington edu an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) writes aside fact disagree w , offer resign president rejected offer willing take responsibility , president balls enough stand decision contempt ignore yup , quite president make decision 12 disagree tim smith
cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) subject americans sexually repressed \? organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 86 article 1993apr16 cs okstate edu , kennejs cs okstate edu \( kennedy james scot \) writes recent studies shown number men engaged homosexual activities last decade 2 3 number men exclusively homosexual 1 1 figures much less came earlier studies showed homosexuality among men lot higher , deduce figures \? lot less male homosexuals used men \( perhaps women \) honest used sexuality \? presumably , people polled mean , 1940s , men women much open homosexuality today \? want try one \? survey assured answered questions honestly suppose however , could gays feel repressed society n't feel could forthcoming sexuality something like survey true possible lot gays led believe \? perhaps americans open sexuality think americans n't might discover really quite people toward sex men women included 'd venture guess lot people considered relationship someone sex point life maybe n't take seriously , n't make less valid therefore , americans n't repressed sexuality general believe may 'd see lot people coming closet mean , ignore study study , continue accept study \( kinsey 's \) obviously wrong \? , i'm heterosexual 've never considered sex another man 's way could easily gay suppose one big debates homosexuality whether 's type behavior learned one born way imho , likely explanation 's combination two based , besides warm fuzzy feelings \? 's something ponder upon gay bashers ever considered homosexuals probably deem sexual orientation state affairs much intrinsic natural part life heterosexuals sexuality \? words , someone truly alcoholics share feeling , hit bottom gay may able live way even date someone opposite sex get married , heart still homosexual likewise , someone truly heterosexual forms relationship someone sex , still heterosexual even though outward appearances may suggest otherwise scott kennedy , brewer patriot unless , course , problem homosexuality form mental disorder , caused childhood sexual abuse , number recent works suggest homosexuals would stop using government impose morality others \( antidiscrimination laws \) leave children alone , would n't care least private get liberal notion proper role government tell peaceful people live , choice continue point homosexuality alternative lifestyle , sickness david koresh cheap thug interprets bible barrel gun atf spokesman atf cheap thug interprets constitution barrel gun good signature ! clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent ,
cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) subject new study gay percentage organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 30 article 1993apr17 nwnexus wa com , elf halcyon com \( elf sternberg \) writes article 1993apr16 8045 magnus acs ohio state edu rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu \( ryan c scharfy \) writes actually , bet gay bi men promiscuous gay men , could option living straight life , social pressures , probably would least try geez , , ryan \? proposed theory months ago let 's take one step , even , surveys show , 33 men homosexual encounter , must cite survey , obviously bogus kinsey studies even larger percentage people homosexual erotic fantasies less 10 population gay , say people n't identify gay demonstrated gay potential obviously , large chunk people chose \( , accurately , forced choose force religion social sanction \) put feelings aside , heterosexual obviously , cramer kaldis fall category ca n't speak kaldis force religion social sanction played part sexual preferences neither much influence teenager elf halcyon com \( elf sternberg \) clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent ,
cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) subject new study gay percentage organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 43 article lynx unm edu , bevans carina unm edu \( \) writes article 15378 optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes new natonal study male sexual behavior , thorough examination american men 's sexual practices published since kinsey report four decades ago , right bat information flawed \? i'm sorry , masters johnson put report within past years kinsey institute quite active since founded oh many years ago , , recently put new report sexuality quoting news story idea claim examination shows 2 percent men surveyed engaged homosexual sex 1 percent considered exclusively homosexual hate picky , let 's math take cities new york city los angeles alone , find approximately 3 5 million gay people making 1 75 million gay men \? even san francisco , dept public health estimates 11 male population gay claiming 16 million people nyc la areas , 10 gay source numbers \? keep mind attempts cdc determine homosexual percentage american cities given numbers 3 1 american male population 1 25 million study says gay males live new york city los angeles , half million people lying gay something smells funny yes , 1 75 million number smells funny brian evans bad mood , bad mood sure i'm bad mood ! clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent ,
cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) subject breach organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 21 article pdb059 kilimanjaro jpl nasa gov , pdb059 ipl jpl nasa gov \( paul bartholomew \) writes mr cramer , still waiting response requests regarding information claim respectfully request either provide information withdraw various assertions make item number 1 previous posting , stated found overwhelming support child molestation soc motss \( finally \) responded one read complete file postings soc motss put bluntly , support assertion short , claim bogus thank confirming postings defense adults sex children , choose claim n't say anything sort 's point discussing , clearly liar , without morals sort , prepared justify child molestation clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent ,
rstevew armory com \( richard steven walz \) subject employment \( concentrate child molesters \? organization armory lines 138 article 1993apr19 tijc02 uucp pjs269 tijc02 uucp \( paul schmidt \) writes sys1 exnet co uk \( xavier gallagher \) writes \? prove \? object property ownership think property ownership limited individual person family needs need 200 , 000 survive , need 3 could get less argue property tied thus cutting people form basic level property owners must bribe rest us respect ownership rights providing alternative means expected give owners \( lets call thieves \) order able sick situation property owners parasites want people able live happy lives property owners cannot maintain monopoly free enterprise system unless help coercive government land owners get together try control land without selling , land prices go point advantage land owner sell property trying put group people distribute land fairly would give monopoly control land , would consequences speak let 's keep land grasp monopoly let exist free market 's already hands monopoly rich capitalism land government land , saved eco system well government function , remaining land owned smaller percentage people ever game capitalism almost game declared take matters hands redistribute fairly , else enslaved return place live central california , already , fewer 30 property 5 90 's twice twenty years ago high pay 60 income rent , afford one room , 30 minimum wage workers homeless unless degrees technical fields working , \( midst 30 unemployment high tech jobs ! \) , never anything used car choose one child ! ! ! everywhere else could afford jobs way get save consume , clothing used , food poor movies , entertainment , , ect five seven years , , 've saved 20 , 000 , get together much , 's ignoring kids working two jobs , buy home arkansas missouri outright live somewhere flood every year ! 's exaggeration pay close attention flood lines people 's houses find sturdy hill , buy one ! also buy missouri 's bad , like sensation sleeping summer car freezing solid winter really put heaters dipstick hole keep warm enough start ether ! \) shit , kill rich redistribute property kill ! rsw want people able work gain basic workable system suggest \? always looking improvements way coexist world give people happy , meaningful lives , individual reach highest potential asking forced redistribution land \? system imagine lead , pollution , , land know system , please describe please specific , since imagination cannot comprehend system specifics interested 1 someone get land assigned born \? 2 happens someone 's land die \? pass children \? 3 someone sell land \? 4 someone land \? 5 governmental restrictions put land use \? 6 administer system \? 7 much cost administer system \? know alot ask understand time answer questions think better able understand proposing , answer paul schmidt advocates self government , davy crockett chapter president land simply granted people live extra kept future get stay without paying rent land supports others becomes property state farmers welcome plant crops people need according demand ability soil quality want grow always , n't good job , let another farmer grow , grow something else people die land entitled use goes public holdings one sell land , trade places anybody one lease land government locally distribute use land used insufficient families living traded public larger house yard according need availability local land council vow live land till death avoid profit ties decide fairness subject review state federal land councils cost fucking thing costs fucking rent going deep dark hole owners ! anyone submit request larger house land start business , depending valid business plan community needs heavy equipment subject seizure public good needed heavy equipment operators encouraged keep maintain machine operate reasonable salary service community companies many machines divided among appropriate equipment operators rest let valid operators need basis cost charged guild heavy machine operators recognized safety training 's sake council community council etc etc etc n't hard think better system realize system , fact 's rigged game steals blind unfair system could already ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! trick realize old rich making rules behind back 's time kick merry go round tax rich death ones converted 60 's school lunch program joke today ones always cut education ones always raise rent get raise ones killed abuse trouble justifying death penalty poor kid killed n't know trouble justifying death penalty rich steal countless human lives feed greed ! paid rent life \? enslaved , percentage wise , life used called , still enslaved somebody claims land n't use make us pay nothing california enough buy apartment house , taxes insurance little left travel ! seen books ! know landlord pays ! know pay forced buy building let end nothing , much right live planet ! child money likewise enslave child hope find going die make things little happier form able destroy life destroyed mine maybe take landlords , heirs would worth able die anything 's poor man 's dream sleep tight , bastard landlords n't know trouble buying sleep heirs money mattress ! rsw richard steven walz rstevew deeptht armory com \( 408 \) 429 1200 515 maple street 1 without safe free abortion women santa cruz , ca 95060 organ surrogates unwanted parasites real men would never accept organ slavery protect women
walsh optilink com \( mark walsh \) subject concentrate child molesters \? organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 28 article murdoch acc virginia edu , gsh7w fermi clas virginia edu \( greg hennessy \) article optilink com walsh optilink com \( mark walsh \) writes big difference running one 's business affairs , actively ripping people charging homosexuals becuase people think aids gay disease actively ripping people really \? thought insurance companies hired actuarial staffs determine risks correlated groups people , gays likely aids sexual orientations wrong correlation , please correct auto insurance company charges young male high performance car always thought based statistical data , rather bigotry hatred young men fast cars course , proper government intervention , could force insurance companies pretend young men fast cars everyone else mark walsh \( walsh optilink \) uucp uunet ! optilink ! walsh amateur radio km6xu wx3k aol bigcookie aol com uscf l10861 , worry \? william gaines , 1922 1992 i'm gonna crush ! andre giant , 1946 1993
walsh optilink com \( mark walsh \) subject concentrate child molesters \? organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 18 article c5og5h 4de exnet co uk , sys1 exnet co uk \( xavier gallagher \) writes well , obvious point make would straight men fuck like rabbits oppertunity presented \? reckon man would go wildly promiscuous presented huge variety willing partners true , gays straights except sexual preference , would imagine gays would much less sex straights available pool dates less one tenth straights somebody correct \( flame \) please ! mark walsh \( walsh optilink \) uucp uunet ! optilink ! walsh amateur radio km6xu wx3k aol bigcookie aol com uscf l10861 , worry \? william gaines , 1922 1992 i'm gonna crush ! andre giant , 1946 1993
cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) subject vietnam deja vu organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 8 waco bar b q caused remember official explanation vietnam war 90s , liberal version necessary incinerate children order save clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent ,
elf halcyon com \( elf sternberg \) subject kinsey fake pervert \? organization , lines 403 distribution world nntp posting host nwfocus wa com comments originator elf halcyon com article optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes article 1993apr17 nwnexus wa com elf halcyon com \( elf sternberg \) writes geez , , ryan \? proposed theory months ago let 's take one step , even , surveys show , 33 men homosexual encounter , must cite survey , obviously bogus kinsey studies granted pomeroy , bell , weinberg , 1967 national institute mental health paper , deviant populations '' cited part national institute mental health task force homosexuality concluded , kinsey statistic 37 probably higher realistic according estimates , 33 realistic figure \( went bought lots bell weinberg weekend tell \? \) also , janus report sexual behavior \( samuel janus , ph l janus , , john wiley sons \( pub \) , 1992 \) following table 3 14 ever homosexual experience \? men women n 1 , 335 1 , 384 yes 22 17 78 83 table 3 15 often homosexual contact \? men women n 294 235 5 6 b occasionally 56 67 c frequently 13 6 ongoing 26 21 active \( c \) 39 37 39 22 9 number consistent kinsey , , \( 1953 \) , bell weinberg \( 1967 , 1974 \) , rice \( 1987 \) finding 9 male population actively homosexual , breakdown \( bell , 1978 \) 4 exclusively 5 self identifying bisexuals \( pp 69 , 70 \) debunking kinsey , following article important lesson everyone read kinsey fake pervert \? philip far knoll , cult researchers claim late alfred kinsey secret sex criminal , dr mengele , bent numbers toward bisexual bizarre grand conspiracy queer nation era free sex kids really riles critics kinsey 's cultural influence surveys sexual behavior human male \( 1948 \) sexual behavior human female \( 1953 \) tore sheets country 's zones undermined morals charts graphs , based detailed histories 12 , 000 men women , demonstrated practices generally considered rare masturbation , extramarital relations , homosexuality , even bestiality , american strawberry yet hard core heterosexual , aided pat buchanan religious right , zoology professor indiana university remains evil genius behind sex revolution target character assassination judith reisman , prosecution 's expert witness trial cincinnati , leader anti kinsey revisionists well inspector 1983 , radio interview pat buchanan washington , reisman accused kinsey vicious torture hundreds children speculated ghetto boys order carry orgasm tests , seven years later , reisman charges different book , titled kinsey , sex fraud , released small religiously oriented huntington house lafayette , louisiana ed eichel , manhattan invented new style \( alignment technique \) supposedly triggers simultaneous orgasm considerable regularity thereby increases sexes book eichel contends kinsey deliberately cooked gay stats , oddball , wanted advance heterosexuality authors right , world famous kinsey reports , introduction boldly asserts , egregious example scientific deception century wrong , kinsey , sex fraud shameful smear despite less stellar kinsey 's detractors , legends used martin luther king may committed bruno slapped young mental patients around father bruce ritter , founder covenant house , runaway boys closer kinsey , masters johnson faking one way another surprise anybody kinsey , filmed strange people sex attic , may skeletons closet problem reisman seem intellectual prowess pull job thinker , woman curie 55 year old former captain kangaroo little professional standing , current university position , peer review publications , though creative 1983 resume padded phantom accomplishments instance , listed book take back night women pornography actually written edited others ph speech communication cleveland 's case western reserve university although reisman bachelor 's degree , case granted master 's 1976 1979 dissertation commentaries local tv commentator resume , reisman gave piece scholarship fancy moniker wit application systems analytic theory mass media effects reisman burst prominence buchanan 's program , love first sight al , anti porn head juvenile justice prevention ed 's justice department young law order conservative amateur social philosopher wanted help change sexual climate united states reisman 's sensational radio session , sexual equivalent joe mccarthy 's speech , summoned meetings discuss mutual interests first tried shovel 800 , 000 quasi study going measure brain chemicals men boys looked photographs capitol hill killed original proposal , 734 , 000 money went reisman anyway plan b probe child images cartoons playboy , , \( incredibly , grant surpassed entire budget attorney general 's pornography commission \) overpriced project completed 1986 , immediately embarrassed justice department spring , resigned post days new republic carried admission kept magazines around house notwithstanding six figure humiliation , reisman went scratch niche right darling sex cranks , subversive phenomena like men 's magazines blames aids gays kinsey , sex fraud reisman 's latest grasp respectability pat buchanan , course , putting reisman 's ultimate book social dynamite , says blurb front cover especially liked parts lips syndicated column , declared , may blow sewer cap kinsey 's reputation , reestablish homosexuality 1 50 aberration , expose gay rights movement paper tiger , even put risk enormous sex industry built upon dr kinsey 's 'research ' charge heart kinsey sex mad pedophile molested little boys nazi type experiments recorded male volume similar charge first fifth world conference jerusalem 1981 effect recycled reisman buchanan washington 1983 reisman eichel mengele business kinsey , sex fraud mengele like experiments infants children basis kinsey 's conclusions childhood sexuality somewhere sometime course project , kinsey appears directed experimental sex research several hundred children aged two months almost 15 years , course , would kinsey team promoting , perhaps participating , criminal activity opinion book 's authors , exactly part kinsey 's child sexuality research took place 's cap citing fbi manual child molesters guide , eichel casually diagnoses kinsey homosexual pedophile perfect motive exactly reisman said kinsey placed professional positions access young boys , c camp counselor , club leader , boy scout leader activities kept college graduate , even marriage crude analysis seems , eichel happy elaborate even recent phone interview 've ever around boy lovers , pedophiles , absolutely compulsive , everything life directed getting children n't mention book caption kinsey 's high school picture quote hamlet delights , , sic woman neither ' think picking \? weighing reisman eichel pass proof kinsey 's sex crimes , something must said kinsey 's scientific collector young sc harvard , collected 4 million gall wasps 1 5 million related insects switched sex exploration agreeing teach marriage course indiana university 1938 , less curious nothing mammals realm reproduction foreign compiled masses erotic materials including toilet wall inscriptions male female johns highlighted differences sexual psychology mating 14 species animals showed amazing similarity oral naturally , sexual response children , genesis eros , fascinated impossible understand sexual behaviors adults without examining origins fervor days , kinsey collected information kids , though even worst enemies reisman eichel refrained linking personally data sex kinsey said plainly male volume got information sex life young boys people sex adults technically trained persons kept diaries records put disposal although gathered much boyhood data memories subjects observations parents school teachers , treated documentary ! pedophiles pure gold nothing like literature kinsey 's main source , 63 year old worker , also character ever met man , whose history took 17 hours log , sex 600 boys 200 girls well 17 33 family members including father grandmother sexual hobbyist passionate record keeper , gave kinsey detailed accounts observed boys relying man 's meticulous research , involved following boys long 16 years , kinsey able identify first time six distinct types male orgasm involved violent peak release well speed capacity freud imagined childhood sexuality , kinsey reported fact children indeed erotic beings cradle data sexual activities younger male provide important substantiation freudian view sexuality component present human animal earliest infancy , concluded without raising 1948 along came judith reisman legitimacy kinsey 's inquiry , ghost mengele bloomington appalled thought infant ecstasy read torture orgasm rendered government worker dared say kinsey sex criminal well , n't \? let 's go text evidence kinsey , sex fraud witnesses , paper , trace hearsay kinsey either planning child sex experiments 12 years trail , reisman uncovered two sources back original charge amazingly enough , kinsey pomeroy , kinsey 's reports , reisman never spoken turns whole case rests passages male volume pomeroy 's 1972 biography titled dr kinsey institute sex research every books , reisman came believes smoking sentences establish kinsey 's alleged role planning , says hint fifth chapter male volume kinsey directed orgasm studies kids cites tell tale quote armchair demanding writers test theories empirical study statistical procedures combines quote kinsey 's statement observations pedophile sources continued periods months years individuals old enough make certain true orgasm involved putting two two together kinsey 's lengthy experimentation arrives hint realizing dog would hunt , devoted single paragraph kinsey 's supposed planning shifting issue personal involvement alleged participation , pomeroy 's biography , reisman found several hidden clues suggesting kinsey 's likely hands approach kiddie sex chain reasoning complex points kinsey interested measurements , collecting sperm sex attic since kinsey indeed mislead indiana university purpose said animal sex reisman asserts similar misrepresentation may yet apply kinsey 's child sex experiments catch may ! reisman also struck kinsey 's doubting thomas attitude toward never recorded female rabbits kinsey , according pomeroy , type person needed see things pomeroy gave example orgasm female rabbit personally witnessed event , kinsey difficulty accepting reality , even strength testimony distinguished scientist kinsey testify actuality orgasm 5 month old infant mere sex offender \? \( , course , depended records \) fantastic alchemy conjecture mixed , sperm , attic , reisman legendary kinsey paul gebhard succeeded kinsey director kinsey institute lives retirement outside bloomington reached telephone , gebhard defended pedophile connection denied reisman 's nasty n't understand resistance people like reisman studying sexuality children , gebhard said anger sex begins happy take data wherever found even though pedophiles commit criminal acts , usually violent folks would n't successful one best sources school maintained kind alumni club sometimes went weddings former students directing experiments , 's absurd never told subjects lt principles almost pedophile material retrospective anyway ever conduct sex experiments children would highly inappropriate asked gebhard kinsey ever seen child sexual situation think mother brought little girl teddy bear kinsey watched kinsey 's sex life , still shrouded confidentiality married woman 35 years fathered four children apparently , huge sexual revelations , although rumors homosexuality persisted without confirmation years gebhard took boss 's history back , refuses discuss knows never divulge anything anybody 's history , whether dead alive , says reisman said interview article grounds worked mention fact debating various forums past five years keeping contentious history , took book continuing kinsey practice incest offense using biblical variant lying near relative 1977 article subject incest synonym intercourse , lying appears eight times genesis ed eichel different story though seemingly obsessed kinsey like , friendly long conversations told began smell big agenda student new york university 's human sexuality program early '80s literally gay studies program heterosexuals , says around 1985 , eichel came upon reisman 's critique kinsey conspiracy theory started sink sex establishment ruled bisexual bund advocating overthrow heterosexual norm wonder rough time promoting joy simultaneous orgasm anything enhanced sexual compatibility men women inevitably raised objections eventually , eichel exchanged philosophical fluids reisman , union kinsey , sex fraud born eichel 's main contribution book discovery analysis kinsey conspiracy supposedly seeks establishment bisexuality balanced sexual orientation normal , people , destroying traditional family structure normal sexual behavior , would open way second difficult step ultimate goal cross sex \( sex children \) pressed specific references back outrageous contentions , said weakly , n't think kinsey going come right say everybody basically bisexual sex kids , implicit kinsey reports meanwhile , eichel demanding congressional investigation kinsey data perfect 's country needs house un american sexual activities committee , looking beds asking people reader , god forbid subject dr alfred kinsey elf ! ! ! elf halcyon com \( elf sternberg \) purpose writing inflate weak ideas , obscure pure reasoning , inhibit clarity little pratice , writing intimidating fog ! bill 's calvin
beach csulb edu \( jeff \) subject talking soldiers , part ii organization cal state long beach lines 23 article 1993apr20 desire wright edu demon desire wright edu \( boomer \) writes going great describe people inside hostages koresh \( eg , people leaving escaped \) , stating generals place law enforcement appears janet fbi atf egg faces 80 hostages dead two unsuccessful janet , advice go seals delta force green berets next time talk nicely generals might illegal without specific presidential declaration even change law general \( sic \) , u military troops permitted used domestic policing operations btw janet think military police \? jeff net without sig
eczcaw mips nott ac uk \( wainwright \) subject concentrate child molesters \? reply eczcaw mips nott ac uk \( wainwright \) organization nottingham university lines 44 article optilink com , cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes article avt hilbert cyprs rain com , joec hilbert cyprs rain com \( joe cipale \) writes article optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes however , monogamous homosexual male sex rare practical purposes , homosexuality spreads aids clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent , fucking homophobic moron ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! iv drug use \? tainted blood \? multi sexual partners \? knew anything \? also spread aids say anything different \? go back read wrote statement homosexuality spreads aids made false fact methods spreading well talking , would dangerous right , persistent boil skin humanity needs joe cipale typical homosexual response yet answer questions challenges statements assume unable \? plain unwilling due lack proof intelligence \? next \? prove wrong put killfile \? lack reasoned response seems typical clayton response clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent , adda wainwright dim atal llanw ! 8o \) eczcaw mips nott ac uk 8o \) mae sig 'ma ar werth !
as010b uhura cc rochester edu \( tree schnopia \) subject concentrate child molesters \? nntp posting host uhura cc rochester edu organization university rochester rochester , new york lines 52 optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes article avt hilbert cyprs rain com , joec hilbert cyprs rain com \( joe cipale \) writes article optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes however , monogamous homosexual male sex rare practical purposes , homosexuality spreads aids clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent , fucking homophobic moron ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! iv drug use \? tainted blood \? multi sexual partners \? knew anything \? also spread aids say anything different \? go back read wrote statement homosexuality spreads aids made false fact methods spreading well made false ridiculous leap logic monogamous homosexual male sex rare \( load proportionately many queers monogamous , ones n't use condoms , part \) practical purposes , homosexuality spreads aids unprotected sex infected partner spreads aids practical purposes speak obviously purposes spreading homophobia , leads interesting truth cramer spreads hate n't nice \? talking , would dangerous right , persistent boil skin humanity needs joe cipale typical homosexual response mean , typical homosexual response clayton e cramer think human would react way someone hateful , actually seem hear sort thing coming posts , know clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent , planning make complete sentence anytime soon \? drewcifer bi andrew simchik schnopia ! as010b uhura cc rochester edu treewater words n't made cowards happy rhodes
joe13 pitt edu \( joseph b stiehm \) subject janet reno killed waco children organization university pittsburgh lines 30 article v2110a vm temple edu v2110a vm temple edu \( richard hoenes \) writes hostage situation taken place numerous occasions result police trying take place force result death hostages gunmen however , first time 've heard blame landing squarely police country policy negotiating back terrorists hostage takers since encourages terrorists hostage takers richard people risk die hostage situation might considered acceptable scenario storming compound everyone dies \( save nine people \) , including twenty children , outcome must considered failure failure due circumstances , incompetence , negligence \? double talk multiple stories 've seen news coming fbi reno find honest mistake hard swallow let 's hope get stories straight second round questions joseph stiehm
cs hut fi \( jyrki \) subject batf usa reply cs hut fi \( jyrki \) organization helsinki university technology , finland lines 130 nntp posting host cardhu cs hut fi repost talk religion misc , talk politics guns , soc culture jewish cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject 's next \? mormons jews \? date 20 apr 1993 19 15 13 gmt organization stratus computer , inc article murdoch acc virginia edu , pmy vivaldi acc virginia edu \( pete yadlowsky \) writes used live country everyone enjoyed free exercise rights worship bear arms arms \? automatic weapons , grenades , rocket launchers \? sorts things family without , guess government claims really stocking weapons armageddon , come never used \? anyway , 've often wondered business followers christ would weapons 's hard imagine pistol jesus , though suppose pump action shotgun would made clearing temple hell lot easier time coming sword , sell shirt buy one told , master , two swords said , enough \( luke \) think come send peace earth came send peace , sword come set man variance father , mother \( matt 10 34 35 \) well , nice federal officers come house check extensive weapons cache , 'll sure shoot tea , ladies gentlemen \? maybe wo n't home come home something like well , 's rough month , begins lawmaster get laid , divorce became final n't ready happened particular monday particular monday december 16 , first day bill third century , day federal agents local law enforcement officer broke house tulsa always flew u flag lawmaster drove driveway bleak afternoon , one neighbors news , john , big trouble ! ' neighbor tells police , federal agents bomb squad busted house , kicked door , cut locks gun safe ' could n't believe walked inside nightmare nightmare horribly real life apparently acting information lawmaster possessed illegal firearm , thirty agents bureau alcohol , tobacco firearms \( batf \) state tulsa police authorities , search warrant hand , search colt , ar 15 , 223 caliber machine gun , unknown serial number warrant , issued u john leo wagner , also authorized agents seize tools used alteration modification firearms , files drills documents , papers , books , records , tangible properties identify occupants owners property searched reports vary , according neighbors , joint task force operation aimed unemployed nearby hospital involved 60 agents local law enforcement personnel lawmaster street took station weapons drawn back yard used ram break front door kicked back door broke gun safe threw personal papers around house spilled boxes ammunition floor broke small , locked box contained precious coins stood table peer ceiling tiles , breaking table process , left doors closed , much less locked ammo guns left front back doors pulled shut , busted could n't latch anybody could stolen everything child could taken gun guns , safe everything open laying around keep magazines empty , someone loaded looking around amazement , gas , electric water companies show turn power said told shut things found note nothing found atf n't make attempt notify 've lived tulsa life never got traffic ticket come ca n't look , realize 've law abiding whole life , come door i'm home \? n't leave someone watch private property n't even come explain happened raided home , , left wide open left lawmaster placed phone call local batf agent asked , arrest \? ' said , 'no ' , going repair clean house \? ' said , 're going talk , come office ' 'i ca n't come ! ' said 'my doors broken ! ' vacation n't friendly neighbors , would lost everything competent , responsible firearms owner , government leaves open , , ammo around lawmaster said agent advised , want door lock gun safe lock , 're pay 'oh , 'll come right , alright , ' told 'i 'll come , 'll bring attorney ' said , 'well , bring attorney , wo n't talk ' n't want tea party held awkward silence , make sure lawyer n't , 's good chap 's sad people died , especially kids , 's going happen free society whenever psychologically needy people hook charismatic nutcase repulsive outlook society followers unusual religions may killed government simply ca n't helped free society two different concepts free cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com \( mark wilson \) subject bill targets pension funds liberation organization ncr engineering manufacturing atlanta atlanta , ga lines 19 master cna tek com mikeq freddy cna tek com \( mike quigley \) writes excerpts insight magazine , march 15 , 1993 paranoia part deleted n't insight magazine published \? n't remember article removed ca n't comment comment though response really believe wrote sufficient refute article \? facts addition opinion \? mob rule n't prettier merely mob calls government ai n't charity using someone else 's money wilson 's theory relativity go back far enough , 're related mark wilson atlantaga ncr com
eck panix com \( mark eckenwiler \) subject watergate \( temper tantrums 1960 's organization nwo steering committee distribution usa lines 20 1993apr19 pony ingres com , garrett ingres com sez michael friedman phil ronzone k far guys called 1 \) ignorant asshole 2 \) ignorant 3 \) dumb bag hammers 4 \) dumb shit missing \? try asking michael whether still thinks 16 one beautiful machines around ask phil still claims due process equal protection clauses 14th amendment apply federal government responses enlightening recent name calling , relevant told gone totally insane , methods unsound mark eckenwiler eck panix com ! cmcl2 ! panix ! eck
dent uchicago edu \( alan \) subject concentrate child molesters \? organization dept mathematics lines 56 article optilink com walsh optilink com \( mark walsh \) writes article c5og5h 4de exnet co uk , sys1 exnet co uk \( xavier gallagher \) writes well , obvious point make would straight men fuck like rabbits oppertunity presented \? reckon man would go wildly promiscuous presented huge variety willing partners true , gays straights except sexual preference , would imagine gays would much less sex straights available pool dates less one tenth straights somebody correct \( flame \) please ! cannot believe posting thread , hell , asked sort reaction first realizing bi , 90 everyone else straight , 'd never end guy anyway several people soc bi pointed , true find partners \( relationships sex \) primarily straight circles nowadays gay culture quite visible major cities , easily find overwhelmingly queer social circle choose \( half friends bi , 's hanging science fiction club going week , 's go way hang bars something \) available pool dates size unless course 're trying date random sample us population promiscuity , 've traded email clayton topic , still n't seem want admit yes , gay males sometimes forced resort anonymous sex 're closeted ca n't afford seen permanent relationship part promiscuity messed gender roles society , males dating males 've trained aggressor sex , 's going sex 's dysfunctional , 's screwed societal attitudes , gay sexuality , 's encourages deviant behavior gay males \( also note someone 's 200 sex partners n't mean 're promiscuous yes , sounds ridiculous , 's quite possible someone go heavily closeted phase lots anonymous sex strangers , come , start forming real relationships , monogamous nearly \) alan \( math uchicago edu \) email , always welcome bi dance thought mad hear music anon w cg \( \) k \? vm h x v j \( \) f vn \( \) e dvb u
koresh dead davidian subject gun control kills 80 organization project glue , university maryland , college park , md lines 10 nntp posting host eng umd edu rejoice ! streets amerika much safer branch davidians longer nasty assault weapons children longer lie awake night wondering next brand davidian attempt shoot rural compound men , women , children murdered great batf , greater good secured rejoice ! second amendment killed
clinton hq campaign92 org \( white house \) subject clinton remarks president waco w q 4 20 93 organization mit artificial intelligence lab lines 379 nntp posting host life ai mit edu white house office press secretary immediate release april 20 , 1993 remarks president question answer session press rose garden 1 36 p edt president february 28th , four federal agents killed line duty trying enforce law branch davidian compound , illegally stockpiled weaponry ammunition , placed innocent children risk batf operation failed meet objective , 51 day standoff ensued federal bureau investigation made every reasonable effort bring perilous situation end without bloodshed loss life bureau 's efforts ultimately individual dealing , david koresh , dangerous , irrational , probably insane engaged numerous activities violated federal law common standards decency , moreover , responsible deaths injuries occurred action compound february given inclination towards violence effort protect young hostages , provocative actions taken seven weeks federal agents compound weekend briefed attorney general reno operation prepared fbi , designed increase pressure koresh persuade compound surrender peacefully plan included decision withhold use ammunition , even face fire , instead use tear gas would cause permanent harm health , would , hoped , force people compound come outside surrender informed plan end siege discussed attorney general reno asked questions thought appropriate ask told thought right , take full responsibility implementation decision yesterday 's action ended horrible human tragedy mr koresh 's response demands surrender federal agents destroy murder children captives , well people survive killed controlled , bears ultimate responsibility carnage ensued must review past eye towards future directed united stated departments justice treasury undertake vigorous thorough investigation uncover happened , whether anything could done differently told departments involve independent professional law enforcement officials investigation expect receive analysis answers whatever time required complete review finally , directed departments cooperate fully congressional inquiries continue fully accountable american people want express appreciation attorney general , justice department , federal agents front lines best job could deeply difficult circumstances , want say yesterday , sorry loss life occurred beginning end tragedy waco hope much others tempted join cults become involved people like david koresh deterred horrible scenes seen last seven weeks hope much difficult situations federal agents confronted doubtless required confront contexts future somewhat better handled better understood learned q mr president , , first , tell us , 51 days , decided q mr president , describe us janet reno outlined 15 minute phone conversation president ca n't hear one go first q sorry describe janet reno q mr president president 'll answer questions , ca n't q describe told sunday nature operation much detail knew \? president yes told attorney general fbi strongly felt time come take another step trying people compound described generally operation would wanted go use tear gas tested cause permanent damage adults children , would make difficult people stay inside building hoped tear gas would permit come outside told circumstances would people fire shots even fired upon going shoot tear gas armored vehicles would protect would exchange fire fact , know , awful lot shots fired cult members federal officials shots coming back government side asked number questions first question asked , \? waited seven weeks \? reasons given following number one , limit long federal authorities could maintain limited resources quality intensity coverage experts might needed parts country number two , people reviewed never seen case quite like one , convinced progress made recently progress going made normal means getting koresh cult members come number three , danger something others likely increase , decrease , passage time number four , reason believe children still inside compound abused significantly , well forced live unsafe conditions reasons , wanted move time second question asked attorney general whether given consideration things could go wrong evaluated might happen good said fbi personnel scene working convinced chances bad things happening would increase passage time third question asked , military consulted \? soon initial tragedy came light waco , 's first thing asked done , obvious typical law enforcement situation military people brought , helped analyze situation problems presented asked military consulted attorney general said , basic agreement one minor tactical difference opinion fbi military something sides thought overwhelming significance asked questions gotten answers , said thought right thing , proceed would support stand today q mr president president wait go ahead q address widespread perception reported widely , television , radio newspapers trying somehow distance disaster \? president , i'm bewildered reason made public statement yesterday let say reason made public statement yesterday nothing add said literally know rather late day whether anybody still alive actually seen taken hospital taken custody purely simply question waiting events ca n't account people speculated one way , talked attorney general day action took place talked yesterday called late last night appeared larry king show , talked morning president possible president distance things happen federal government control say , however , frankly , surprised would mild word , say anyone would suggest attorney general resign religious fanatics murdered \( applause \) regret happened , possible life control behavior others every circumstance people killed four federal officials line duty heavily armed fired federal officials yesterday repeatedly , never fired back everything could avoid loss life made decision regret terribly , feel awful children end , last comment janet reno , talked sunday said , , want tell believe believe believe move rather wait said , 's children evidence children still abused 're increasingly unsafe conditions , n't think get easier time passage time take word think things stand q assume n't think mishandled view outcome , n't run patience \? , would really decide way \? president well , think assume exactly announced today fbi done lot things right country long period time fbi found people bombed world trade center split , record time want inquiry analyze steps along way something else known \? question asked \? question asked \? say sure one could done nothing else make outcome come different \? n't know 's want inquiry 's would like make sure independent law enforcement people , political people , totally non political , outside experts bring bear best evidence , unfortunately , rise sort fanaticism across world may confront want know whether anything , particularly children involved think important recognize wrong case people killed others killed q mr president , options presented resolving situation point february 28th yesterday \? president well , yes , got regular reports along way lots options pursued go back covered well fbi good job mean , fbi authorities pursued number options along way , lot early seemed working children got , people left one point , seemed lines communication opening koresh authorities would say things things began spin downward whether terms happened yesterday , conversation attorney general involve options except whether take time present strategy pursuing said wanted , thought best way get people compound quickly could kill 's thought q government know children gas masks \? q congressional hearings situation agreement \? president 's congress whatever want think 's important treasury justice departments launch investigation bring outside experts said statement , congressional committees want look , fully cooperate nothing hide probably well covered operation kind history country go ahead , sarah q two questions want ask first , think knew well children gas masks adults , children chance gas said lethal , dangerous children could survived without gas masks february 28th let 's go back n't people right practice religion \? president practicing religion , treasury department believed violated federal laws , number q federal laws president let go back answer ca n't answer question gas masks , except tell whole purpose using tear gas tested convinced would n't kill either child adult would force anybody breathed run outside one things 've heard n't want get details n't know one things speculating today wind blowing fast windows might opened gas might escaped may n't desired effect also knew , sarah , underground compound bus buried underground children could sent think hoping much children released immediately outside humane thing would done children would sent someplace could protected terms gas masks , learned yesterday ask fact question gas supposed stay active compound longer gas masks work thought even gas masks , eventually gas would force , circumstance ms myers last question q mr president , still saying q could tell us whether ever asked janet reno possibility mass suicide \? learned actual fire explosion went mind horrendous moments \? president asked janet reno considered worse things could happen said , course , whole issue suicide raised public debated anyway said people knowledgeable kinds issues concluded greater risk would tomorrow next day day anytime future judgment made whether right wrong , course , never know happened saw fire , saw building burning \? sick felt terrible immediate concern whether children gotten whether escaping whether inside , trying burn 's first thing wanted know thank q mr president , still saying janet reno decision \? n't , end , decision \? president well , i'm saying n't four five hour , detailed briefing fbi n't go every strategic part decision take responsibility i'm president united states signed general decision giving authority make last call talked sunday , time elapsed might made decision change mind said , decide go forward tomorrow , support support ultimately responsible american people think conducted duties appropriate fashion dealt situation think well could thank \( applause \) 55 p edt
borden head cfa harvard edu \( dave borden \) subject quick survey economic views organization smithsonian astrophysical observatory , cambridge , , usa lines 17 'd like conduct small survey relating americans' views economics japan survey consists two questions ask americans respond 've posted worldwide , however , think others interested results 'll results post commentary please respond email borden m5 harvard edu questions 1 \) american , would prefer given year , \) economy grows one percent , japan 's economy also grows one percent , b \) economy grows two percent japan 's economy grows three percent \? 2 \) newsgroup read survey \? thank participation dave borden borden m5 harvard edu
evansmp uhura aston ac uk \( mark evans \) subject new study gay percentage nntp posting host uhura organization aston university x newsreader tin version 1 1 lines 17 chris \( cc dcs ed ac uk \) wrote article optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes force people associate others , yes people forced usa armed forces \? recent past , maybe someone knows certain usa decided wants army \( sent south east asia \) one \? mark evans evansmp uhura aston ac uk \( 44 \) 21 429 9199 \( home \) evansmp cs aston ac uk \( 44 \) 21 359 6531 \( office \)
eczcaw mips nott ac uk \( wainwright \) subject new study gay percentage reply eczcaw mips nott ac uk \( wainwright \) organization nottingham university lines 119 article apr 20 20 07 19 1993 romulus rutgers edu , kaldis romulus rutgers edu \( theodore kaldis \) writes article 1993apr20 8748 galileo cc rochester edu as010b uhura cc rochester edu \( caifone \) writes certainly hope n't , sir , supposed signify \? prefer person , euphemism heard thankfully , got gender right deviant wow ! another clayton wannabe typical response lack logic define someone normal ok , far define 'normal' , umm define normal prove \( within limits , brings question , limits \? may 's intolerance \) \) 'normal' difficult prove posted must follow means someone without compassion sense justice look went clayton school logic , n't \? disparaging towards political minorities , sexual deviants comprise political minorit astounding lack logic ! wow ! must define say everyone agrees used phrase sexual deviant hell define \? someone something sexually n't \? definition probably mean majority planet know next door neighbour n't like spread wife \? sexual \? know n't like something sexually others may find repulsive \? sex fashion sexual \? please specific , , back claims may go hospital due laughing much clayton 's postings secondly , assume moment phrase means people homosexuals , bisexuals c \( basically everyone n't like \) , think phrase comprise minorit ` \( brackets \? \) non gay groups exist lobby governments fact prove false hence group state political minority therefore political majority \? think really big one try thinking arguments shred self respect , 'd door associate girls indeed self respect find sort would inclined head door account views regarding aberrant behavior known homosexuality , would encourage indeed , would advise let door whack backside way needs airhead \? prove first statement please dates , phone numbers , c logic fails make statements cannot \( probably \) maintain state person \( girl , context \) considers equal rights humans airhead \? clayton \( best mate \? \) would say shows screwed pretty soon find retreating back closet belong n't count , sweetheart oh , ca n't anything count , inevitable , part natural order things throughout history , nature always asserted n't arrogant assume foolish misguided generation change nature man practically every generation failed greater men n't able certainly happen , matter much may wish pretend otherwise proof please proof homosexuality part natural order proof nature always asserted saying nature \? pretending ability see future \? god \( tm \) \? fact , arguement , waiting black people become slaves \? sub human \( nb view \) one time \? arguement falls ass moreover , i'm sweetheart touchy touchy touchy ! right shot holes every one arguements probably going put kill file answers questions challenges since cannot support arguments merely goes show write based upon personal prejudices , cannot taken fact kind await intelligent response views expressed herein theodore kaldis seriously kaldis remus rutgers edu believe major university ! rutgers ! remus rutgers edu ! kaldis would hold views \? \? \? adda wainwright dim atal llanw ! 8o \) eczcaw mips nott ac uk 8o \) mae sig 'ma ar werth !
goykhman apollo hp com \( red herring \) subject welcome police state usa nntp posting host dzoo ch apollo hp com organization hewlett packard company , chelmsford , lines 26 article netcom com rlglende netcom com \( robert lewis glendenning \) writes anybody heard explanation fbi using tear gas 35 mph wind \? first , tank drove wall living room ca n't stop thinking children inside house \( room \? \) time many people got killed square events \? n't seem like good tactics explanations \? lew lew glendenning rlglende netcom com perspective worth 80 iq points niels bohr \( somebody like \) disclaimer opinions expressed mine , employer 's
phil netcom com \( phil ronzone \) subject freedom association organization generally favor , mostly random lines 174 article pdb059 kilimanjaro jpl nasa gov pdb059 ipl jpl nasa gov \( paul bartholomew \) writes well put together post disagree several key points , post excellent one engage discourse much discussion recently right freedom association mr cramer mr ronzone appear take absolutist position right fundamental human right , perhaps fundamental human right , supersedes rights , right equal opportunity others feel right equal opportunity outweighs right freedom association , thus never ending debate flares repeatedly freedom association \( foa \) involves mutual voluntary agreement two people right equal opportunity \( lets call reo \) involves coercion cases \( definition \) major problem neither rights explicitly declared protected constitution declaration independence , although derived documents unfortunately , means debate never end , neither side prove validity view becomes solely matter personal philosophy yes , much debate , end , recognition rights \( well , totally 100 perfect end , end way worldwide disagreement say , murder , crime \) personal opinion real answer lies somewhere regard rights fundamental human rights , , come direct conflict one another stronger depends given situation hmm , even discusion religion take somewhere approach towards state state recognized religion \? first amendment , , uh , absolutist know example , owner mom pop store wishes hire employee help , right freedom association outweighs rights job applicants equal opportunity free hire whomever choose , using whatever criteria choose , without government intervention similarly , family wishes rent bedroom home , garage apartment , something similar , right freedom association outweighs rights prospective tenants equal opportunity , hand , ibm , multi national corporation 275 , 000 employees , publicly owned , operated board directors , wishes hire additional employees , whose freedom association protecting \? board directors \? employees \? owners stock \? case , applicant 's right equal opportunity outweighs right freedom association , , society , ask ibm use criteria relevant specific task \? says \? mon pop foa , ibm forced , force correct word , reo \? purchase ibm voluntary , well defined procedures ibm chooses things chooses things let procedures work employment policies \? similarly , landlord owns number apartment buildings live , managed independent management agency , whose freedom association protecting \? owner live buildings contact tenants , prospective tenant 's right equal opportunity outweighs right freedom association , , society , ask owner use criteria relevant good tenants \( 've put good quotation marks really n't want drawn side issue constitutes good tenant \) tenant option \( wo n't call right \) destroy foa landlord \? landlord tenant ca n't agree , cease using 's property suddenly , arm waving , magic , landlord foa basis foa landlord disappear \? seems vague terms like contact tenants suffice well , think foa one important \( top 2 3 \) , , state going make suffer , sure would like see heinous crime justifies removal right n't think contact even crime , much less something cause severe interference important rights suspect majority people country agree position extreme cases , particularly presented manner n't know mr ronzone mr cramer would agree suspect case , additional problems arise try apply guidelines middle ground company 10 employees , 100 , 1000 \? draw line protecting right freedom association protecting right equal opportunity \? rights defined majority mob choice foa absolute reo fancy name , racism , coercion difficulty line draw , necessity , artificial legislation resulting flawed past , government usually tried pass laws referred number employees hired company e g , company xxx employees affected law fewer unaffected course would see line must , foa right like state religion ca n't either generally , believe regulations affecting rights , right freedom association stronger hand , many regulations protect right equal opportunity much , weakening right freedom association n't believe satisfactory solution please everybody solution came use publicly owned vs privately owned dividing line company remains privately owned , owners free whatever want company company becomes publicly owned , public right ask company submit additional regulation \? assume say publicly owned , talking quasi state shareholders companies fortune 500 , example , privately owned give list owners anonymous , unknown , owners way , analysis based assumption right freedom association right equal opportunity fundamental human rights equal importance since entirely matter faith , subject proof , choose even try establish either accept n't comments \? foa derived two rational people , basis neither evil , malicious , murderous intent towards others short , agreement mutual , reo hand , lives accepting coercion , gun , situation self destructive whole argument , based might makes right sort like saying , nobody right live , whereupon whip gun shoot dead end argument actually people still believe love canal kind environmental disaster weird , eh \? opinions mine , ca n't 'em ! \( 'll rent 'em cheap \)
gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) subject eight myths national health insurance \( pt ii \) nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) organization phds hall lines 163 v140pxgt ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( daniel b case \) writes gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) writes 're buying insurance much coerced one insurance plan , optional optional doctors accept isolated religeous communities particular ask exemptions \( one e mail christian scientist edmonton verified indeed negative option \) guess argue right particular insurance , far 've come across north take pains keep tabs news home 's optional , n't want basic coverage government 's terms \? said opt , 're basically two things work public insurance wide cover , also universal private plan boast plan fits gaussian curve private sector discovered , 're better offering insurance coverage customers going use \( turns private insurers offering frills effective cartel n't really need compete , put , 're win win situation 're guaranteed turn profit believe , probably figured according sister yuppie , pat back point chamber commerce , sense , 've stopped truly capitalists n't worry competing anymore might say total effect one socialized medicine government providing basics cartel providing extras alternative system , desirable alternative system system \( patients opted , doctors opted , \) insurance ca n't force private insurance company sell plan offer remember actual health care delivered private entities collect public insurance voluntarily , ca n't force private entity spring life pay plus , matter culture values i'm basically anti tax anti government , canadian standards yet ca n't bring make arguments , despite understand 're coming north , 're much likely find someone protesting taxes going defence health insurance premiums one fund basic coverage \( interesting side note new insurance companies started scratch since medicare became standard canada \? actually doubts new ones emerged since ww , scratch western canada , quite quebec part post 1980 quebec miracle \( nationalism , french capitalism \) la groupe des cooper built new tower eaton \( 's \) store les , able catch urban angel cbs 's 'd see well lit one double top ontario , still dominates business north meant new companies , new buildings yes , primarily quebec alberta sorry , musta lost verbose blurb 's really insurance n't alternatives well , realize society 's like saying 's really national defence ca n't hire rambo squad instead even pacifist true , would comfortable system basic care provided government optional , mandatory canada germany , 's mandatory however , negative option must request exemption private sector provide private basic coverage offered option \( quebec case \) tells something know either way , transient situations hard deal since changes private medical care resource take place slower rate ability people fall sick esp light disasters \( e g , \) bad luck \( sudden wave heart disease \) doctor needs 4 6 years training , plus internship specialty training another problem us system resolved n't canada something like ten times proportion gps specialists us \? yes , part reason markets small sustain many specialists , sometimes even one , pretty well gp get paid get training , doctors monopoly might block getting licence already someone business cannot fill appointment book cma doctors monopoly something american ama oriented medical lobby never tells problem , specialty skill often directly pay \( good makes merely adequate \) general practice circumstance , 's hard blame people going specialties , respect people specialties \( okay , md friends \( \) 's question small market dynamics north anything , private doctors hospitals sell services americans generate business inflate effective population served , thus make specialties finally viable \( e , enough customers \) enough sick canadians absolute numbers otherwise personally think approach like germany 's would best companies compete people rochester , little east us , able get almost population covered way uh germany basically uses method , many sickness funds competition fake exists , 're look der spiegel stern \( girlfriend german department uncle private \) ads health insurance canada province , germany paperwork around big corporations regional offices remember provinces population major german corporations germans public health insurance , smaller entities \( actually , basic private firms 'll sell extra insurance fill policies , sort voucher system , one first ideas floated canada , \) remember , germans n't hmo 's telling sign , 'cos rochester 're also company town washington post article recently said canadian doctors often use instead mris , require spinal injections cause seizures headaches mickey , new republic , probably spoke americans said needs \? think people generally like believe easily get high tech treatment even really ca n't afford 'll let canadian md jump verify claim , 've come learn suspect anything american press system much true , 'd take us idiots given insurance installed period liberal tory governments federally provincially , socialists still , would 've pressed real socialized medicine fix things think , using u metric make comparison keeping confirming something right gld je souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go ! ! ! gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
harelb math cornell edu subject f cus health u compares nf id n poly math cor 000 nf math cornell edu ! harelb apr 21 14 17 00 1993 lines 81 harelb math cornell edu \( misc activism progressive co moderator \) subject f cus health u compares children elderly poverty f cus health u compares children elderly poverty percentage children elderly living poverty 1984 1987 \( 3 \) children elderly country poverty poverty united states 20 4 10 9 canada 9 3 2 2 australia 9 0 4 0 united kingdom 7 4 5 2 france 4 6 4 5 netherlands 3 8 3 4 germany 2 8 2 8 sweden 1 6 4 3 source timothy , u poverty income security policy cross national perspective , october 1991 , , october , 1991 , income study , working paper 70 19 western industrial nations western industrial countries national health insurance plan providing universal coverage australia yes sweden yes canada yes united kingdom yes denmark yes austria yes finland yes france yes ireland yes switzerland yes italy yes spain yes japan yes belgium yes new zealand yes germany yes netherlands yes norway yes western industrial countries national health insurance plan providing universal coverage united states page 74 're number one , america stands falls new world order andrew l shapiro new york , may 1992 , vintage books , division random house 10 paperback isbn 0 679 2 transcribed well sf ca us \( joe \) becoming land private greed public squalor book indispensable road map wreckage facts reveals may depress ideally 'll fire help rebuild nation '' robert b reich , author work nations
harelb math cornell edu subject f cus health millions america nf id n poly math cor 000 nf math cornell edu ! harelb apr 21 14 18 00 1993 lines 80 harelb math cornell edu \( misc activism progressive co moderator \) subject f cus health millions americans un covered f cus health millions americans un covered percentage population covered public health insurance , 1990 \( 25 \) country percent country percent australia 100 sweden 100 canada 100 united kingdom 100 denmark 100 austria 99 finland 100 france 99 ireland 100 switzerland 99 italy 100 spain 99 japan 100 belgium 98 new zealand 100 germany 92 netherlands 100 united states 21 norway 100 sources organization economic cooperation development \( paris \) , health data file , 1991 u national center heath statistics , advance data , 201 , june 18 , 1991 're number one percentage population without health insurance main reason 're number one percentage population without health insurance 're last percentage population covered public health insurance one fifth americans qualify main types public health insurance available united states medicare , , benefits \( 2l \) n't qualify , many private insurance \( 22 \) almost one seven americans \( 34 million people living families working adult \) insurance , one four \( 63 million \) without insurance substantial period time last two years many inadequate coverage , meaning could major illness \( 23 \) fact , one health care expert says 1 percent population private care insurance , virtually american could impoverished prolonged disabling illness \( 24 \) additionally , many 40 percent eligible forms public aid receive gaps health care result directly fact united states major industrialized nation \( south africa \) without national health insurance plan providing universal coverage controlling costs 're number one , america stands falls new world order andrew l shapiro new york , may 1992 , vintage books , division random house 10 paperback isbn 0 679 2 transcribed well sf ca us \( joe \) becoming land private greed public squalor book indispensable road map wreckage facts reveals may depress ideally 'll fire help rebuild nation '' robert b reich , author work nations
steve martin mrg uswest com \( steven martin \) subject janet reno killed waco children wed , 21 apr 93 22 55 19 gmt nuntius v1 1 1d17 steve martin mrg uswest com organization u west , mrg steve martin mrg uswest com lines 29 article v2110a vm temple edu richard hoenes , v2110a vm temple edu writes hostage situation taken place numerous occasions result police trying take place force result death hostages gunmen however , first time 've heard blame landing squarely police country policy negotiating back terrorists hostage takers since encourages terrorists hostage takers accurate analogy david koresh take bunch hostages call batf ransom note make sound batf showed save children first place interesting news absolutely jurisdiction child abuse cases seems batf showed , took davidians hostage fbi showed , negotiated hostages released , unable keep batf killing rest poor people trapped inside compound steve martin steve martin mrg uswest com strongest reason people retain right keep bear arms , last resort , protect tyranny government thomas jefferson
scotty tek com \( richard lynn \) subject quality time , one act play organization tektronix , inc lines 9 \( \( fluffy bi fantasy \) \) dear mr elf , please post shit belongs believe know , weenie
peter adams mail trincoll edu subject trincoll journal interactive macintosh opinion x xxmessage id 32 dynamic trincoll edu x xxdate wed , 21 apr 93 13 06 06 gmt organization x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d20 lines 31 announcing trincoll journal trinity college 's publication trincoll journal interactive written hypercard publication offers wide variety information concerning trinity campus , greater hartford area addition journal also provides unique forum opinion expression would like invite internet community participate creation publication submitting articles , art work , events \( greater hartford area \) , anything else think interesting , journal week articles may written anything long written well ! also interested mirroring newsletters information easily accessible non intensive macintosh users weekly deadline submitting materials 10 00pm \( eastern standard time \) please send submissions journal mail trincoll edu receive journal week send mail message words subscribe journal subject line journal mail trincoll edu please include full name body text find everyone thinking subscribe today
jason ab20 larc nasa gov \( jason austin \) subject ap journalists arrested waco organization nasa langley research center , hampton , va lines 65 reply jason c austin j c austin larc nasa gov nntp posting host ab20 larc nasa gov reply goykhman apollo hp com 's message thu , 22 apr 1993 19 25 40 gmt article apollo hp com goykhman apollo hp com \( red herring \) writes article jason ab20 larc nasa gov jason c austin j c austin larc nasa gov writes article calvin nyu edu nyu edu \( \) writes still doubt going , still ap wire two journalists houston arrested gun point jailed taking pictures compound today later released bail , cameras film confiscated jh could work cnn take lines story imply something n't say really mean police always close area around major crime scene keep evidence disturbed taking pictures \? leave foot prints , may drop trash ground , may pick something looks interesting , misdemeanor enter closed area one photographers also quickly spun around long lens camera officer approaching , good way get shot well , \( hopefully \) depends country one nothing country coming toward someone area violent , one guy spins around quickly object looks like gun police trained stand let someone gun also indication story would n't get cameras film back getting jail goverment agents opportunity check film 're making statements supported facts n't let paranoia get best wait see reporters n't get film back get back developed screaming conspiracy think barry said goverment big enough give everything big enough take everything life freedom including course , could happen , could \? government big enough give everything , despite efforts people like bill clinton taking statement like thinking done name law enforcement simple minded ignorant history government necessary evil , must decide allowed based facts , history , baseless claims jason c austin j c austin larc nasa gov
rick howtek mv com \( rick roy \) subject koresh dead 's time start healing organization howtek , inc reply rick howtek mv com \( rick roy \) x mailer uaccess macintosh release 1 6v2 lines 9 sorry , wanted first hypocrite say hope i'm late everyone watching local national politicians \? rick rick roy usenet rick howtek mv com america online qed disclaimer employer 's views orthogonal early bird got worms
gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) subject eight myths national health insurance \( pt ii \) nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) organization phds hall lines 99 v140pxgt ubvmsd cc buffalo edu \( daniel b case \) writes gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) writes , ca n't force private entity spring life pay government , sheer economic force , basically cleared basic care market way test would really daring person start , scratch , alberta quebec , health insurance company offering basic care crazy \? yes , 's almost mci got started however , concept risks well known insurance private firm get kind public pools get since health insurance gets spent , n't sit well insurance ceo 's get situation like u rates keep going catch see mean \? 's government monopoly sure 's non market free market ca n't solve even private insurance says remember last year quebec proposed giving least risky parts basic care private sector balked like said \? wants part arguments , n't want provincial plan , 're basically creek yes culture , arguing like arguing national defence means true according polls 've read \( usually sort stuff responding \) something like 60 americans would like canadian style health care , whereas 3 canadians would like way 'd interested know many \( 3 canada 's population million people \) canada saturated american media pundits come cable talk awful health care supposed , people experience north ends differing see portrayed american television movies \( e , infrastructure , different insurance make \) yet know insurance problems , idea hmo lots british tv well , know n't like nhs someone must reason argue , valid kind people \? polls refer , canadian data , annual july 1st polls conducted \( major english \) decima research decima president allen gregg considered one world 's top poll researchers , mulroney 's conservatives relied keep power face impossible election situations american polls harris polls , reposted usenet times probably i'm sorta suspicious , 'cos maybe americans want universal coverage like canada honestly doubt americans realize private doctors public private hospitals \( e , similiar health care infrastructure \) system basically pure insurance without hmo 's given recent \( endorsing universal coverage \) hostility hmo 's within ama , complete silence vis vis canada bashing ama , suspect 're keeping secret canada sleeve exactly would n't \? idea managed competition arose , direct threat stand alone private practice 1960 's , ama fought hmo 's socialist medicine part reason insurance , hmo 's canada 'cos part deal cut cma 've also read three biggest american compared straight smaller canadian provinces \( maritimes \) spend something like 300 500 less per patient maybe help american hmo 's still cream probably cover smaller geographic area even smallest provinces geography , spread across whole country , think site probably compact , n't forget hmo 's place caps coverage , often wo n't tell additional procedures could get otherwise \( despite might willing pay \) gld je souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go ! ! ! gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
kane buast7 bu edu \( hot young star \) subject new study gay percentage organization astronomy department , boston university , boston , , usa lines 10 article optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes 've already posted results survey homosexuals , shows profoundly promiscuous homosexual men urban areas among access gay
kane buast7 bu edu \( hot young star \) subject breach organization astronomy department , boston university , boston , , usa lines 36 article optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes article pdb059 kilimanjaro jpl nasa gov , pdb059 ipl jpl nasa gov \( paul bartholomew \) writes item number 1 previous posting , stated found overwhelming support child molestation soc motss \( finally \) responded one read complete file postings soc motss put bluntly , support assertion short , claim bogus thank confirming postings defense adults sex children , choose claim n't say anything sort 's point discussing , clearly liar , without morals sort , prepared justify child molestation clayton , really idiot , play one usenet \? claimed postings dozen \( e 12 \) soc motss posters supported child molestation \( point aside really defending abolishing modifying age consent laws , right attracted n't act upon desires children \) 12 thousands overwhelming majority never cease amaze still n't told relationship partner immoral brian kane kane buast7 , astro bu edu \( hot young star \) astronomy dept , boston university , boston , 02215 true personal salvation achieved absolute faith ones true self
v2110a vm temple edu \( richard hoenes \) subject waco investigation paranoia organization temple university lines 9 nntp posting host vm temple edu x newsreader nnr vm 1 3 2 people please stop 'i think know batf fbi completely responsible 'll cover investigation show koresch responsible' bs investigation size feds , state , civilians involved investigation would impossible cover republicans like arlen spector calling investigations , n't going handled kid gloves richard
starowl rahul net \( michael adams \) subject new study gay percentage nntp posting host bolero reply starowl rahul net organization service actuarial consulting x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 19 23 apr 93 00 18 59 gmt , clayton cramer observed kiwi ucs indiana edu \( amy lynn young \) writes someone tell mr cramer spouts homosexuals , addresses homosexual men , never , post 've read , addressed lesbians \? granted , stopped reading posts long , long ago , perhaps missed something women , seldom molest children un yeah right sure know list things american mom , apple pie , etc \? n't hear many stories mom child molester , stories would simply unamerican n't say n't happen michael starowl
onr netcom com \( owen rowley \) subject mow bodycount organization netcom online communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 54 article 1993apr19 spdcc com urso spdcc com \( stephen \) writes article world std com bearpaw world std com \( bearpaw \) writes believe mow plans handing sort thingy , basing count see two problems one , get everybody take one \( one \) \? two , could n't possibly able choose color design wo n't clash somebody 's outfit ! three ads 've seen indicate 're charging 5 've seen , look like clear plastic multi coloured rainbow threads labeled 1993 march washington \( particular number \) certainly everyone march washington willing shell five bucks piece plastic bought mine mow plastic , material think miss point five bucks pocket , supporting march helping pay printed organisation leading literal birth queer visibility country point news coverage driven events happen us event happening direct action course last mow thing ignored us guess labor pains perhaps ignore us , case come even numbers next time lst night dc many queers could hardly get place suspect next two days become exponentially larger mind physical collective closet queer invisibility five bucks insignificant lux owen owen rowley onr netcom com \( also owen autodesk com \) eu state well natural state , enjoy abundance good fortune comes
subject could n't care less vax1 mankato msus edu organization mankato state university lines 33 article 1993apr22 ucc okstate edu , kennejs cs okstate edu \( kennedy james scot \) writes article 1993apr21 msuvx2 memst edu msuvx2 memst edu writes article 93111 cmuvm bitnet , 34aej7d cmuvm bitnet writes quote rush 's radio show yesterday , referred recent events near waco , texas either yes , 's regrettable eighty odd people died , could walked door simple turn knob 's plain stupid lay blame anyones feet ol' vernon 's fbi batf started fire , take six hours catch \? timed incendiary devices , say \? could idiots picked tossed window \? argument whether wood burning stove used \? 's known fact city seige , thereof eat , hell , bd 's could 've mre type us know conscience clear word mean anything \? several minutes go smoldering cigarette butt couch sets couch fire 's possible \( maybe possible \) scenario one cs gas grenades fbi threw earlier caused material like carpet extended period time later tank punched hole wall , knocking one bds kerosene lanterns , kerosene spilled onto smoldering material , resulting fire killed 86 people inside another possibility results fire starts one room torches entire place anyone adjacent rooms escape \? n't think much theory sorry , catchy quotes
onr netcom com \( owen rowley \) subject mow bodycount organization netcom online communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 17 oh note , usually poor typing made even dificult small keyboard connections piped order access news dc i'm really trying irritate spelling \) lux owen owen rowley onr netcom com \( also owen autodesk com \) eu state well natural state , enjoy abundance good fortune comes
larry peak psl nmsu edu \( evil engineer cowboy way \) subject waco burning organization new mexico state university , metaphysical science laboratory lines 63 nntp posting host peak nmsu edu reply turmoil halcyon com 's message 22 apr 1993 16 59 28 0700 22 apr 1993 16 59 28 0700 , turmoil halcyon com \( tim crowley \) said tim nntp posting host nwfocus wa com tim goykhman apollo hp com \( red herring \) writes article v2110a vm temple edu v2110a vm temple edu \( richard hoenes \) writes yes 've heard survivors saying 've also seen videotape shows fire started two three different places n't near tank seen tape cnn network see \? tim saw film cnn happend clear tim tape fire started one location right tim tank attacking , pulled back tim several spots fire started , started one tim location spread direction heavy wind tim fbi claims seen filmed several starting tim points yet keep hidden spread much tim lies well guess responsible mass murder tim 80 people exercising constitutional rights , tim would lie gosh , tim , must seen different live broadcast smoke emerge one place initially , considerable distance tank , short time , fire appeared several places good distance apart 's nagging question , people , made attempts escape save children , child , n't committing suicide , believe would made attempt least save child , least one survivors attempting go back fire physically removed one lifted finger bring child , apparently explain \? two survivors claimed place lantern oil set fire \( doubt david 's orders \) least lawyers talked tim also , yet released search warrant \? \? \? \? good question maybe would embarrassment , seeing atf went dirty harry mode initially stupidly handled , find difficult believe entire fbi completely gone corrupt new administration less 100 days old stupidity bad decisions plans always us alignment waco tim ya turmoil halcyon com fuck police ! ! ! ! see \? freedom speech l yeh , buddy larry psl nmsu edu \( larry cunningham \) 've got computer ! physical science laboratory \( \) \( \) right ! ! new mexico state university \( computer ! \) las cruces , new mexico , usa disclaimer opinions expressed correct , mine , oh sure , could easy way would n't cowboy way
demon desire wright edu \( boomer \) subject ap journalists arrested waco organization acme products lines 20 article jason ab20 larc nasa gov , jason ab20 larc nasa gov \( jason austin \) writes good way get shot also indication story would n't get cameras film back getting jail oh 'll get back , exposed film \( shortly rodney king episode , woman dayton used camcorder tape police arresting several youths upon noticing , police arrested \( ! \) accidently erased tape yep , 'll get film back allright brett 's nothing passionate vested interest disguised intellectual conviction sean o'casey white plague frank herbert
pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) subject motor voter lines 54 organization university tennessee division continuing education article bigbird williams edu williams edu \( walter gibson \) writes motor voter stuff friend , election , brought point would enable people vote , however , since makes easier get place registration brought analogy one place vote , say , alaska would excessive wasteful petition places vote \? similar idea way encourage people vote making easily accessible , knowing stood , played devil 's advocate said well , would taxpayer 's money go people trouble making dmv , \? right vote merge right vote easily \? draw lines \? well , line honest , extending voter registration hardly analogous one place registration alaska opening new one atlanta always better 've passed certain point friend said obviously extreme actually motor voter bill would save money longer would city pay someone sit town hall spend time filing things 'd push button filling x dmv \( actually someone else , 's need confuse anymore \) countered saying would n't congress , always , get budgets fund committees oversee implementation argument went back forth forever ranging whether 's better people voting , whether even relevant , etc looking opinions anybody got 'em \? \? \? thought motor voter bill passed case , tennessee 's voter registration system \( register mail , way \) nobody interested voting denied access registration requires tiniest bit interest 's part thinking election eleven months prior \( register 's good unless miss years worth elections move \) 's easy register simply n't see value going trying get people registered n't enough even write proper forms sent expect responsible decisions people \? david veal univ tenn div cont education info services group pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu still remember way laughed , day pushed elevator shaft i'm beginning think n't love anymore weird al
irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \( brent irvine \) subject atf burns dividian ranch update organization university illinois urbana champaign lines 22 article 1993apr22 ucc okstate edu kennejs cs okstate edu \( kennedy james scot \) writes article nate 1485 735408842 psygate psych indiana edu nate psygate psych indiana edu \( nathan engle \) writes 34aej7d cmuvm bitnet writes ah yes , see liberal weenies come woodwork defend burning children yeah , nazis know liberals love nazis cigarette cops nazis said nazism dead \? got bunch right good 'ol us n't might zealous , maybe bureau n't exist people , nazis people toss around nazi label easily \? personal opinions \? , brent irvine yes think irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \?
roland vub ac subject voting system regulations european parliament distribution world organization brussels free university vub lines 64 keywords proportional representation majority europe european parliament election voting ballots britain italy holland belgium germany spain france greece portugal denmark eec ec ep commission summary views voting system use ep eunet politics x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d17 x xxmessage id vub ac x xxdate fri , 23 apr 93 15 00 35 gmt since 1979 , members european parliament \( parliamentary european community \) elected directly citizens member states , members european parliament \( meps \) members national \( \) elected among peers european parliament , every member state fixed number seats , increases less population five years , general european election held , citizens member states choose representatives european parliament next elections due 1994 voting system european elections still differs one country another although european treaty enabling direct election meps requires uniform voting system , every country used system , less one used national elections british meps elected first past post system one mep per district nearly states chosen system proportional representation countries \( france , italy \) meps allowed mnp well , whilst others \( belgium , netherlands \) european parliament working uniform election system members , every candidate regulations comply , regardless member state \( \) wants elected would like know people think following questions 1 think necessary uniform regulations every member state continue use regulations \( european elections \) \? 2 think system majority voting implemented , one meps per district , would prefer system proportional representation \( whole community per state , per region , per district \? \) 3 think european commission \( president \) directly elected , appointed european parliament , joint member state governments \? 4 treaty allows subjects member states stand election another member state residing think would could vote foreigner ideas appeal \? 5 think meps allowed member national parliament regional parliament \? member national regional government body \? 6 european parliament meetings strasbourg brussels meps complete move brussels great majority , political compromises governments member states stick status quo approve think european parliament meet one city , yes , \? please post answers eunet politics , followups automatically directed access group , please mail answer directly post hope many take time post views matter roland b 034 de van universiteit brussel media , en 2 1050 brussel belgium tel 32 2 641 24 15 e mail vub ac tel 32 2 641 24 12 talk vub ac fax 32 2 641 28 61
rja mahogany126 cray com \( russ anderson \) subject cults , waco insanity originator rja mahogany126 lines 35 nntp posting host mahogany126 organization 1991 world champion minnesota twins ! article apollo hp com , nelson p apollo hp com \( peter nelson \) writes article srgenprp sr hp com sr hp com \( patrick kearney \) writes ask question tradition , one highly regarded many people , several hundred jews elected throw cliff masada rather submit roman rule circumstances masada waco would seem general terms quite similar , yet far i'm aware nobody seriously suggested jews insane already pointed , jews faced totally different fate hand romans koresh hand feds jewish men would likely crucified , women children sold slavery one well argue koresh may thought similar fate awaited , scant rational basis fear , insane seems describe belief penalty convicted murdering 4 federal agents texas \? death penalty none excuses reckless action feds , allegedly believing dealing nut , exercise much restraint indeed , given stated goals saving children , one might also apply moniker insane actions yup russ anderson disclaimer statements reflect upon employer anyone else \( c \) 1993 ex twins' jack morris , 10 innings pitched , 0 runs \( world series mvp ! \)
rja mahogany126 cray com \( russ anderson \) subject waco burning organization 1991 world champion minnesota twins ! lines 43 originator rja mahogany126 nntp posting host mahogany126 article 1993apr22 linus mitre org , bs gauss mitre org \( robert silverman \) writes article mojo eng umd edu russotto eng umd edu \( matthew russotto \) writes article 4ta noose ecn purdue edu garrod dynamo ecn purdue edu \( david garrod \) writes b b c world news service , short wave , originating london , reports survivor waco massacre states tank , making hole wall building , knocked kerosene lamp fire started attempts made people inside put fire , spread quickly 're hearing sure rings true 's consistent way mass suicide fire survivor also saying rings true \? \? \? \? separate report overhead helicopter recording entire incident video tape visual record several files \( think number 3 mentioned \) starting different parts compound video made public \? fbi spokesman also said first knew fire black smoke started pouring , later said three different fbi agents saw b members starting fires also fbi claims listening devices \( bugs \) compound make public tapes b said \? , attempt blame fbi starting fire simply looks like attempt survivor shift blame away b 's think crock well sealing initial search warrent , keeping media miles away , letting b talk public , making contradictory statements , releasing tapes steps ensure public confidence actions russ anderson disclaimer statements reflect upon employer anyone else \( c \) 1993 ex twins' jack morris , 10 innings pitched , 0 runs \( world series mvp ! \)
organization penn state university psuvm psu edu subject f cus health millions america pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu 1993apr22 desire wright edu lines 33 article 1993apr22 desire wright edu , demon desire wright edu \( boomer \) says article pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu , pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) writes 's question far informed health care almanac , quoting oecd health data lists u public health expenditures 1990 5 2 gdp , 42 4 total health expenditures really paying 42 4 expenditures insure 21 population \? heh , doubt evidence government efficient profit health care proving brett major thinking problem two groups government insure elderly medically needy \( impoverished spending medical care \) typical elderly person spends 3 5 times person age 65 typical medically needy person spends 10 times average person 've got adjust data , brett words thoughts bound swear allegiance word master storm carries , put port make shea , psu home
demon desire wright edu \( boomer \) subject real source trouble us health care system organization acme products lines 31 cancel private health insurance \? government care covers 20 population consumes 42 spending health care \? ! national health expenditures 1960 1990 \( includes puerto rico areas \) year health services supplies \( billions \) private public 1960 19 8 5 7 \( 22 total \) 1970 44 1 24 9 \( 56 total \) 1980 140 7 98 1 \( 41 total \) 1990 374 8 268 6 \( 42 total \) source american almanac , page 97 1992 3 edition understand 12 2 gnp going waste figures , private insurance spending 58 money cover 4 times many people go figure brett 's nothing passionate vested interest disguised intellectual conviction sean o'casey white plague frank herbert
kane buast7 bu edu \( hot young star \) subject vietnam deja vu organization astronomy department , boston university , boston , , usa lines 8 article optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes waco bar b q caused remember official explanation vietnam war 90s , liberal version necessary incinerate children order save yet callous incident disregard life call bar b q
kane buast7 bu edu \( hot young star \) subject new study gay percentage organization astronomy department , boston university , boston , , usa lines 12 article pdb059 kilimanjaro jpl nasa gov pdb059 ipl jpl nasa gov \( paul bartholomew \) writes clayton cramer going stop lying admit whole crusade based personal hatred , fear , obsession \? need help , mr cramer saddest thing people , like cramer 's wife , learn dislike homosexuality early childhood clayton , however , , let wife sucker issue , full grown adult
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject real source trouble us health care system organization university toronto chemistry department lines 33 article 1993apr23 desire wright edu demon desire wright edu \( boomer \) writes cancel private health insurance \? government care covers 20 population consumes 42 spending health care \? ! national health expenditures 1960 1990 \( includes puerto rico areas \) year health services supplies \( billions \) private public 1960 19 8 5 7 \( 22 total \) 1970 44 1 24 9 \( 56 total \) 1980 140 7 98 1 \( 41 total \) 1990 374 8 268 6 \( 42 total \) source american almanac , page 97 1992 3 edition understand 12 2 gnp going waste figures , private insurance spending 58 money cover 4 times many people go figure private insurance industry cream milk simple gerald
rpi edu \( jim ault \) subject question representation nntp posting host jacob rpi edu organization rensselaer polytechnic institute lines 21 debate student government university , question raised one student senator represent people n't vote \? implication , raises different question represent people n't vote \? feel many good reasons anyone elected public office \( student government government \) strive represent people \( class '95 geographical area , whatever \) would like help others phrasing reasonable argument topic thanks followups directed talk politics misc , email preferred jim ault , systems programmer , rpi , troy , ny 12180 usa rpi edu
pochanay cae wisc edu \( adisak pochanayon \) subject clayton asshole \( already know \) organization college engineering , univ wisconsin madison lines 34 article netcom com netcom com \( roger \) writes adisak pochanayon \( pochanay cae wisc edu \) wrote article optilink com , cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes homosexuals vicious , screwed , often really evil people 've learned quite bit last two years evil , vicious , dishonest , lying scum way describe homosexuals clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! believe clayton full shit could believe anyone biased obviously \? slightest bit open minded , would n't write slanted smears especially generalize entire group people would say case pot calling kettle black ! really pot calling kettle black \? stating person shows continually biased opinion close minded opinion ignored clayton stating group least two million \( 1 \) american citizens evil vicious malicious child molesters 's hypothetical question clayton said something like really stupid \( please n't offended , i'm racist merely using example clayton 's logic \) said read report lot blacks inner cities dropped school , bet would n't support yet claim homosexuals dishonest , evil , lying child molesters without personally single homosexual friend acquaintance 'll sit support god created place bigots 's called hell clayton going burn long time pray find heart christian values learn love gay brothers sisters , anyone much hatred soul never righteous
rja mahogany126 cray com \( russ anderson \) subject waco investigation paranoia originator rja mahogany126 lines 32 nntp posting host mahogany126 organization 1991 world champion minnesota twins ! article v2110a vm temple edu , v2110a vm temple edu \( richard hoenes \) writes people please stop 'i think know batf fbi completely responsible 'll cover investigation show koresch responsible' bs well could original warrent \( sealed first place \? \) , release video tapes \( listening devices inside compound \) quit contradictory statements believe statement children killed lethal injection \? later stated bodies burned point would hard identify come lethal injection theory \? investigation size feds , state , civilians involved investigation would impossible cover unless evidence destroyed evidence planted republicans like arlen spector calling investigations , n't going handled kid gloves mean magic bullet spector \? know , lone killed branch davidians \) \( russ anderson disclaimer statements reflect upon employer anyone else \( c \) 1993 ex twins' jack morris , 10 innings pitched , 0 runs \( world series mvp ! \)
mst4298 rigel tamu edu \( mitchell todd \) subject waco burning organization grinchco lines 60 distribution world nntp posting host rigel tamu edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 russotto eng umd edu \( matthew russotto \) writes mst4298 zeus tamu edu \( mitchell todd \) writes russotto eng umd edu \( matthew russotto \) writes 're hearing sure rings true 's consistent way mass suicide fire survivor also saying trapped inside damage done tanks accidental fire plausible mass suicide , considering davidians apocalyptic cult history armed violence \? fbi reason lie cause fire , resulted negligence , bd survivors also reason lie started blaze fbi claims fire set simultaneously three places claim building filled tear gas electricity cut , tanks rolling around bds co setting fire \? 's fairly simple decided burn place , one agent dispatched set fires separate parts compound doubt simultaneously means exact time case likely means close enough together preclude part fire fbi claims men torches set fires n't released evidence , though seems n't true might waiting evidence comes site , investigation least well underway bds previous actions aimed towards survival , death could said jonestown idea kerosene lamps would place \( electricity cut \) makes sense idea ramming tanks building would spill cause fire makes sense possibility fbi would n't know nil n't simple negligence maybe , 've suprised folks missed past similar situations n't jump mitchell todd mst4298 zeus ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' tamu edu ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' '
mst4298 rigel tamu edu \( mitchell todd \) subject waco burning organization grinchco lines 45 distribution world nntp posting host rigel tamu edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article ctron news ctron com , smith ctron com writes mst4298 zeus tamu edu \( mitchell todd \) writes accidental fire plausible mass suicide , considering davidians apocalyptic cult history armed violence \? place tinder box straw bales insulation , would n't time die smoke inhalation fire reached people burned death , truly horrible painful way die , n't think even fanatic would willingly inflict , let alone family n't know much fall 's government vietnam traditional indian practice people burning death \( willing go end \) political religious reasons since beginning time also , death smoke inhalation little better dying flames think toxic gasses 's pleasant anyone remembered jim jones thought mass suicide real possibility , self would simply method choice , buddhist monk , might far likely bombs , bullets , poisoned kool aid 's say definitely n't n't make claims either way find idea implausible enough want see gov't thoroughly determine started fire accident i'm waiting see government , mitchell todd mst4298 zeus ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' tamu edu ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' '
steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) subject f cus health big secret summary administrative costs health care nntp posting host thor isc br com organization boomer , inc lines 72 article 1993apr22 desire wright edu demon desire wright edu \( boomer \) writes article 1993apr21 isc br isc br com , steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) writes article 1993apr20 desire wright edu demon desire wright edu \( boomer \) writes blue cross government health insurance provider oops oops \? blue cross may well government workers massachusetts number state local governments , n't know blue cross certainly government agency private yes private deal government regulations concerning 's employees covered processed , etc mountain forms gov employees go sorry , red herring contending mountain forms processed blue cross \? blue cross insurance government employee employee private corporation , saw difference two sets forms moreover , administrative costs associated medicare , two primary forms government insurance considerably lower average private insurance companies \( 5 versus 14 16 \) evidence blue cross bears heavier burden insuring government employees private employees , post otherwise , try stick factual assertions original post implied , private insurers us whose administrative costs significantly higher administrative costs tax supported health care systems canada elsewhere remain paper bound refuse well , 's interesting defense free enterprise system contending government intervention prevents private insurance companies \? fact , true red tape burden stems lack standardization among 1500 private insurers us , 's little difficult understand anything free enterprise work way , 's , bible wall street , week admitted administrative costs significantly lower canada single payer system always cheaper guess even free enterprise advocates beginning see light try \? hmo provides good service low cost n't government telling doctors say medical procedures sorry , seem confusing proposals health care reform bush administration 's gag order federally funded family planning clinics proposals would control doctor cannot say medical procedures try jsh steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing data , sure cut uucp ! uunet ! isc br ! thor ! steveh bulls r hofferbert bell 509 838 8826
subject earth also pollutes scientists believe rodger scoggin ksc nasa gov \( rodger c scoggin \) nntp posting host 128 159 2 197 lines 32 article gr ncratl atlantaga ncr com , mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com \( mark wilson \) says many environmentalists attributed 1988 drought u global warming , researchers national center atmospheric research educated open minded environmentalists one effective come backs seen long time everybody disagrees stupid closed minded , means , like majority environmental scientists researchers , agree el la nina southern systems climatic phenomena categorized humans drought \( 1988 \) furthermore , response earlier message , 1992 u est output sulfur dioxide \( 20 mill tons \) equivalent entire output recent mt \( sp \) currently world carbon dioxide levels set approx 360 ppm , past 120 , 000 years never gone 280 \( info found using ice core samples joint french russian u vostok project \) furthermore , background emmisions chlorine compounds 0 6 ppb annually , sits 3 5 overwhelming data info found world resources doc published oxford university ozone hole northern southern hemispheres keeps getting bigger around longer whilst skeptics ponder wrong corrupt data government international scientific institutions pity , , skeptics wrong base complacency limbaugh psycho babble , find strapped limited options rectify primal engineering industrial age employer n't subscribe opinions , data disclaimer
oasys dt navy mil \( lawrence \) subject major burger chain offers reply oasys dt navy mil \( lawrence \) distribution usa organization carderock division , nswc , bethesda , md lines 9 talk politics misc , demon desire wright edu \( boomer \) writes janet , like hostages \? a1 \) quick fried crunch a2 \) baked delicate crunch would like fries , sir \?
com \( \) subject new study gay percentage organization investment corporation , ct lines 40 article rick howtek mv com \( rick roy \) writes called \( tm \) try refer , please note many religious beliefs evolved basic , pragmatic principles day day living lived certainly many religious beliefs seem positive principles everyday living indeed , believe islamic religion avoids alcohol \( apologize name wrong religion \) certainly physical positive many respects however , proves nothing something basic , pragmatic principle day day living today n't mean evolved especially beliefs \( mostly \) positions held based interpretations religion religious beliefs come many places backed \( many levels arguments \) 's written god says i'm basic , pragmatic principle mean context belief based faith , definition necessarily backed logic faith given god absolute truth arguing religion also , many religions would reject thesis beliefs simply come day day principles , wish use religious arguments prepared back says fill religious document , religions \( things least denote religions \) based writings teachings fill religious figure note religion charged topic offended anyone regarding references god , apologize please insert sensible references , argument apply nearly religions \( com \) opinions expressed within solely author subject change confronted new information logical , coherent arguments
ux4 cso uiuc edu \( christopher j \) subject earth also pollutes scientists believe organization university illinois urbana lines 35 rodger scoggin ksc nasa gov \( rodger c scoggin \) writes furthermore , response earlier message , 1992 u est output sulfur dioxide \( 20 mill tons \) equivalent entire output recent mt \( sp \) currently world carbon dioxide levels set approx 360 ppm , past 120 , 000 years never gone 280 \( info found using ice core samples joint french russian u vostok project \) furthermore , background emmisions chlorine compounds 0 6 ppb annually , sits 3 5 overwhelming data info found world resources doc published oxford university good evidence ozone hole northern southern hemispheres keeps getting bigger around longer whilst skeptics ponder wrong corrupt data government international scientific institutions pity , , skeptics wrong base complacency limbaugh psycho babble , find strapped limited options rectify primal engineering industrial age ozone hole northern hemisphere \? exactly happen get ozone hole upper atmosphere \? according senior chicken little nasa , much uv radiation one moved 100 miles south certainly calamity imagined eco lunatics co2 going 's evidence increase due burning fossil fuels , evidence increasing co2 increase temperatures , raising temperatures anything good ie make millions productive life bearing land chris
jmk cbnews cb att com \( joseph knapp \) subject waco investigation paranoia organization lines 10 v2110a vm temple edu \( richard hoenes \) writes republicans like arlen spector calling investigations , n't going handled kid gloves ironic extreme spector manages uncover government conspiracy cover case maybe 'll posit magic grenade lit fires three wings building joe knapp jmk att com
lazlo carina unm edu \( lazlo \) subject waco burning organization international fear club lines 11 distribution world nntp posting host carina unm edu russotto eng umd edu \( matthew russotto \) writes idea kerosene lamps would place \( electricity cut \) makes sense idea ramming tanks building would spill cause fire makes sense idea cs gas canister get hot enough ignite dry hay lazlo \( lazlo triton unm edu \)
syshtg gsusgi2 gsu edu \( tom gillman \) subject scientists believe green house effect organization georgia state university lines 36 mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com \( mark wilson \) writes 1993apr21 titan ksc nasa gov rodger scoggin ksc nasa gov \( rodger c scoggin \) writes article cellar org , techie cellar org \( william bacon \) says word sums , alot scientist concluded without doubt global climate occur \( ring \) dealt source without doubt warming occur however mucho disagreement much warming occur original claiming 10 15 degrees lately saying 3 5 degrees newer studies hint might less degree course , 's side article yesterday 's atlanta journal stated many scientists data used determine whether global warming occuring faulty point article made long term temperature collected urban areas , heat rise attributed growth area called asphalt temperature trend real long term data remote areas , middle rain forest , top mt everest desert , matter accompanying article mentioned group scientists nasa developed method using satellite collect temperature data globally , preliminary results showed slight downward trend attributed mt went say even current downward trend , appeared change global temperatures using trend prediction methods least next 50 years quote article verbatim like tom gillman , systems programmer wells computer center ga state univ classic star trek security \( 404 \) 651 syshtg gsusgi2 gsu edu officer sometime show gsu n't care say internet , \?
garrett ingres com subject watergate \( temper tantrums 1960 's summary still n't get news software vax vms vnews 1 4 b1 keywords organization ask computer systems , ingres product division distribution usa lines 87 article 1993apr20 oracle us oracle com , mfriedma us oracle com \( michae writes article 1993apr19 pony ingres com garrett ingres com writes article 1993apr17 oracle us oracle com , mfriedma us oracle com \( michae writes article 1993apr17 pony ingres com garrett ingres com writes article netcom com , phil netcom com \( phil ronzone \) writes article 1993apr15 pony ingres com garrett ingres com writes ford go trouble nothing wrong \? duh garrett , ignorant , read watergate , guys must must call names \? none grade school levels intelligence \? jesus , garret , n't ever watched saturday night live \? historical ignoramus , also cultural ignoramus saturday night live anything \? make fun someone little bit creativity talent , hand , complete lack creativity , talent , verbal mechanics think culture , shows intellectual level generally accepted nixon attempted cover break occurred actions pursuit end , course , ignorant history think involved break guess makes even dumber officially accused alot let list 1 \) justice part coverup granted 2 \) abusing presidential powers coverup part let 's forget nixon personally authorized break 's psychiatrist 3 \) constitutional rights citizens challenge provided evidence officially accused thi nothing else , 's meaningless subvert someone 's constitutional rights \? verb n't go noun tell house charge going challenge well \? constitutional rights citizens nothing covering watergate proved wrong , n't expect believe since arrogance replaced reason 4 \) willfully lawful white house records tapes part coverup granted garrett , please note every charge mention , except one english meaning , part coverup wrong forgot btw , od think tried cover \? loyalty people worked would funny , n't sad actually believe loyalty allowed people worked take rap , sat let happen really loyal people worked , would resigned death modifiers , declared one day , garrett johnson every letter passed hands went every garrett ingres com adjective next day made war articles following day blacked everything letters , , joseph heller 's catch 22
garrett ingres com subject watergate \( temper tantrums 1960 's summary wars vs police actions news software vax vms vnews 1 4 b1 keywords organization ask computer systems , ingres product division distribution usa lines 58 article 1993apr20 346 oracle us oracle com , mfriedma us oracle com \( michae writes article 1993apr19 pony ingres com garrett ingres com writes article netcom com , phil netcom com \( phil ronzone \) writes article 1993apr17 pony ingres com garrett ingres com writes well really n't matter anyway really n't care liars think anyway \? call liars \? want proof \? 'd glad provide i'm really sure ones said things since sound anyway one said nixon n't start secret wars lie nixon full knowledge invasions cambodia , lied american public note , however , military actions wars joke ! ca n't actually believe said \? bombed invaded countries notice definition war \( american heritage dictionary \) 1 \) state period armed conflict nations states qualifies invasions cambodia wars one said nixon n't use office presidency personal gain lie senate committee issued indictment listed nixon 's crimes relevant ones 1 \) violating oath office 2 \) abusing presidential powers excuse , neither refer personal gain let explain really slowly abuse powers position \? could gain personal political power \? naw , would obvious , 're big thing mistook prc people 's republic cambodia since knew cambodia socialist time , since comment right middle conversation cambodia , made wrong assumption talking thing ah , garrett , anyone make assumptions meaning initials prc discussion asia ignorant anyone call names position ignorant desperate noticed edited points proved phil completely wrong death modifiers , declared one day , garrett johnson every letter passed hands went every garrett ingres com adjective next day made war articles following day blacked everything letters , , joseph heller 's catch 22
jane uh edu \( chris \) subject waco gov't fault \( libertarian party cia fbi atf \) organization university houston lines 188 distribution world nntp posting host jane uh edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article dscomsa desy de , hallam zeus02 desy de writes article 1993apr21 1 happy uccs edu , happy uccs edu writes several shreds evidence prove waco disaster government 's fault 1 \) raided american 's property rumors koresh 's intentions converted , yet still 2nd amendment protected , firearms \( judge approved warrant justifies nothing \) democracy rule law search warrant justifies search us constitution justify murder attempting mount search illegally held weapons search illegally held weapons \( , evidence yet produced effect \) justify firing house women children , either also justify shooting first without identifying oneself \( atf fbi done , n't say n't , please \) producing warrant guess depends whose story one believes , huh \? 2 \) took 51 days think basic terrorist tactic , e tear gas \( could justified support supposed inside \) govt right use lethal force certain cases attempts capture dangerous criminals armed threatening lives others others talking \? one case used sub lethal force sub lethal \? excuse , people dead ! ! ! 3 \) gov't immediately imprisoned called children held hostage evidence \? far fbi produced none n't hold breath adults wanted variously murder conspiracy murder held chains \( wanted rest held crime material witnesses 4 \) took hundreds gov't agents tax funded cellular phones ten minutes dial 9 1 1 fire department called fire dept role play situation might rescued might well shoot feds decision make , firefighters calling fire dept meant waco deprived resource might needed elsewhere situation could used arisen true answer call help fire department citizen since fire departments answer calls deprive resources might needed elsewhere valid reason calling , since davidians found guilty crime court law , subject protection citizen las far know , even criminals prison left burn death fire 5 \) cutting water supply surrounding area , gov't guaranteed fire compound would fatal fire started deliberately lamp oil likely fatal guess matter religious faith \? government says , must \? n't reading thread well enough notice us n't beleive story \? 6 \) one foresight station rescue vehicles nearby first place scarce resource bunch cannot deprive neighbourhood resource might required genuine case patients psychiatric hospitals left die fires , either besides , explained , us believe distress might genuine certain n't \? 7 \) gov't conveniently forgot stuff freedom religion include human sacrifice include forms murder evidence davidians committed human sacrifice either initial raid self defense murder 8 \) gov't arguably started \( least fanned \) fire govt arguably run communists trilateral commission say deliberate accidents require conspiracy theories , disregard human life initial raid alone \( agents firing blind walls standards law enforce ment procedure \) proves mind killing people 10 \) finally , may stretch statists , koresh 's original reasons compound may something continual interference gov't new taxes , new regulations increasing involvement every aspect personal economic lives life compound might become way future might let us hope support koresh allowed enforce upon rest us one supporting koresh opposing illegal use excessive violence government citizens reasons supporting ownership high power weaponry clear enough hope destruction fabric society allow enforce nightmare vision future society believes ok terrorize people religious views destroy due time feds disrupted fabric society waco , koresh feds forced nightmare onto people mount carmel would good thing people study history basis assume n't \? n't really mean would good thing people drew conclusions history \? \) particular group militant militant implies acts aggression one 's neighbors davidians left neighbors alone religious heretics left set community time ago years latter captured medina destroyed idols within ten years whole arabia islam \? mormons considered cult years , chased one place another much thinking advocating finally got set community left people alone far americans n't put sword mormon crying avenge joseph smith \) group people start saying want left alone mean stay n't mean wo n't either anyway , whole purpose system laws punish people , might pat , oral roberts jimmy world quite telling people run lives telling forcing police knock door , cannot make go away changing pat friends , n't even watch channel , since atheist far , watching tell n't gotten killed \) allow people get guns point face likely find running life right , people sticking guns anyone 's faces government trying hard run life n't noticed \? phill hallam baker christian college libertarians texas uh chapter jetson uh edu box 113 , 4800 , houston , tx true civilization every man gives every every right claims robert
v2110a vm temple edu \( richard hoenes \) subject cults , waco insanity organization temple university lines 58 nntp posting host vm temple edu x newsreader nnr vm 1 3 2 article srgenprp sr hp com sr hp com \( patrick kearney \) writes assuming , sake argument , branch davidian people manner described federal authorities , general consensus appear bd insane \? manner behaviour died , fact chose kill rather submit government \? ask question tradition , one highly regarded many people , several hundred jews elected throw cliff masada rather submit roman rule circumstances masada waco would seem general terms quite similar , yet far i'm aware nobody seriously suggested jews insane point comparison question use word 'cult' discussing events waco davidians cult , jews masada \? constitutes cult \? size membership , matter respectability , perhaps length time 's existence \? catholics cult \? mormons \? sect cult \? dictionary definitions aside , since popular usage seems carry weight , suspect word 'cult' used sense speaking groups like davidians rather like word used describe someone unpopular someone government wishes make unpopular like , say , castro communist boss cuba one n't hear clinton described america 's democratic capitalist boss well , one thing , dividians \( depending whether could show acted self defense illegal weapons \) , could gone life living one forcing give religion even legal weapons dividians survived change leadership even koresch would convicted sent jail , still could carried n't think dividians insane , n't see reason mass suicide \( fire intentional set dividians \) also n't know , fire intentionally set inside , generally know plan something inner circle knew , something two three felt without koresch 's knowledge blessing , etc \? n't know much masada people throwing others \? mothers jump babies arms \? richard
kebarnes msuvx1 memst edu subject drugs crime new approach organization memphis state university lines 233 mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com \( mark wilson \) writes , \( missing entire point post \) kebarnes msuvx1 memst edu wrote given 1 trade illegal drugs responsible much crime nation much evidence fact drugs illegal , drugs caused violence witness prohibition violence surrounded trade alcohol joke 2 people want drugs \( particularly people predisposed addiction \) find way get , whether legally available suppossed argument keeping drugs illegal \? , jumped conclusion 's actually argument accomplish societal good drug use without violating individual rights 3 despite current law enforcement efforts , drugs readily available want suppossed argument keeping drugs illegal \? missed point point , war drugs failure , 4 addiction drugs , legal illegal , responsible significant drain productive resources country , occurs variety ways , cocaine addicted babies unable learn , spread disease among addicts , tragic consequences alcohol abuse tobacco smoking crack baby scenario discredited happens symptoms seen crack babies identical fetal alcohol syndrome mothers admitted taking crack also admitted drinking heavily pregnancy country people free stupid want , free stupid injure people admittedly , fetal right life outside scope discussion however , 's ridiculous assert , apparently , cocaine effect developing fetal nervous system nicotine fetal effects , cocaine exception \? 5 general economic principle government whatever subsidized get , whatever taxed get less effective confronting nation 's drug problem , way must found utilize additional powers government make drug dealing drug use less attractive make drugs legal , tax use tax money fund program tell people drugs worked legal drugs read article writing knee jerk response would seen exactly advocated country 's current efforts combat legal drugs succeeded respects , \( greater awareness health consequences smoking , designated driver programs helped reduce drunk driving , example \) , cannot said war illegal drugs remains core group illegal drug users support international networks smugglers , pushers , , processors , , gangsters networks marketing activities , include drive shootings , corrupting law enforcement authorities , smuggling weapons , directly indirectly responsible large proportion crimes committed country every day every one problems direct result drug trade illegal shit , sherlock clearly , illegal drugs rising crime linked takes moment 's reflection recognize linked link money country 's failed effort prohibit alcohol consumption , black market created , greedy local , like gangsters era , enormously illegal trade victims trade include innocent people unfortunate enough caught crossfire , , would argue , drug users great argument making drugs legal thank could missed point utterly \? smoking \? proposal 1 possession use presently illegal drugs , buying selling remains illegal grow marijuana \( many already today \) , drug users legally import poison choice long pay , barter economy drug experimenters develops solution done nothing eliminate violence drug trade btw , someone going import drug buying illegal think need think solution little obviously , buying drugs u , u jurisdiction use remaining brain cells 2 barter economy supplies drug users , black market profits enriched drug lords drugs obtained next nothing , buy \? nevertheless , seek sell noncommercial drugs even relatively low prices therefore , failed indicate drugs obtained free next nothing stated sale illegal k , 'll spell barter economy means drug users permitted grow synthesize chemically anything choose , buy outside u bring , wo n't grow also permitted trade drug users drugs ones grow manufacture , however able legally sell drugs money manufacture importation noncommercial drugs taxed , discourage use brain drugs questions \? 3 law enforcement activity concentrated individuals continue buy sell , also crimes committed drug users poor afford even low prices strategy begins differentiate drug dealers , , drug users , victims cities , already strategy already failed dragging rest us pardon , possession use drugs still crime ! cannot rates drug users would seek treatment , comparative ease could made available today , drugs illegal possess use , would illegal possess use possession use makes treatment much easier drug dealers exploiting weaknesses persons prone addiction , , drug users left alone , thrown prison along drug dealers criminals , treated drug addiction absolve responsiblity criminal actions , however 4 upon arrest crime , suspects permitted choose whether undergo drug test choose cooperate informed upon conviction crime accused , found drug user , institutionalized clean , begin serve sentence choose cooperate already drug free , begin serve sentence right away choose undergo drug test convicted face stiffer fines serve longer sentences sounds hell lot like self incrimination unconstitutional drug use legal scheme , presence drugs anyones system influence penalty receive \? much big tastes drug test arrested suspect voluntary , coerced , therefore constitute violation amendment v convicted drug users , evidenced test , need treatment problem institutionalization criminals , would argue , best way help straighten refuse test convicted , sentence appropriately , since , unlike addict , excuse crimes 5 institutionalization drug using criminals serves several purposes drug using criminals \( includes drunk drivers \) separated sources supply , thus reducing total number drug users society large , consequently decreasing demand drugs street , putting remaining drug dealers business drug using criminals treated different criminals , already stated drug use legal mark wilson atlantaga ncr com \? objective discourage drug use criminal behavior fewer criminals drugs fear getting sentence convicted , good thing \? fewer drug dealers \( still criminals , btw \) find victims , good thing \? fewer drug users , drunks , , ' etc , commit crimes fear cut sources supply , good thing \? i'm certainly willing debate position read carefully though standard disclaimer x , dna \( \) ken barnes , bldg conservative libertarians ' kebarnes memstvx1 memst edu pro balance ! \( \) memphis , tn 711 compuserve com find television educating every time somebody turns set , go room read book groucho marx
jima b17d ingr com \( jim albea \) subject 're government 're help organization intergraph corporation , huntsville , al lines 95 article 1993apr18 isc br isc br com , steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) writes article 1993apr8 infonode ingr com jima b17d ingr com \( jim albea \) writes article 1993mar24 isc br isc br com , steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) writes steve proposes system checking nations criteria government try counter limits constitution might better place check gee , jim , 'll check constitution 'll find order promote general welfare ordain establish constitution i'm surprised missed 's right first paragraph would thought would made least preamble almost got right , good try , follow advice preamble constitution read quoted let us forget preamble binding part constitution carries weight law poor tortured paragraph got one unfortunate passages english language witness blowhards like think vague phrases part law land really believe politician give lip service promoting general welfare within limits constitution \? sorry , buddy , blowhards managed include general welfare another portion constitution article section 8 congress shall power lay collect taxes pay debts provide common defence general welfare united states guess wanted make sure everyone understood meant said preamble make sure 've got point , let 's little experiment constitution read follows \? preamble people , promote general welfare , ordain establish constitution united states america constitution federal government shall one function one function provide defense nation government would two functions defense welfare since explicitly includes general welfare defense article , section 8 , guess 'll grant constitutional functions right \? steve i'm glad see abandoned preamble thing word search find welfare somewhere else constitution \? comments brackets article section 8 ways guts constitution congress shall power 1 lay collect taxes , duties , , pay debts defined document provide common defence defence precisely defined general welfare defined document , mostly ways limit government united states taxes shall uniform u far congress given power collect taxes uniformly 2 borrow money 3 regulate commerce foreign nations , interstate indian tribes 4 uniform 5 coin money , regulate value thereof , etc 6 punish 7 establish post offices post roads 8 provide patents copyrights 9 constitute inferior supreme court 10 define punish etc 11 declare war , etc 12 raise support armies , longer two years stretch 13 provide maintain navy , notice time limit one 14 make rules army navy 15 provide calling forth militia execute laws etc 16 provide training army except state stuff 17 exercise exclusive legislation c 18 make laws necessary execute foregoing powers original instinct right looking nations precedents support liberal agenda much easier looking slim found constitution jim albea jima b17d ingr com
clinton hq campaign92 org \( white house \) subject clinton press briefing dee dee myers 4 20 93 organization mit artificial intelligence lab lines 693 nntp posting host life ai mit edu white house office press secretary immediate release april 20 , 1993 press briefing dee dee myers briefing room 9 47 edt ms myers okay , today 's schedule know , president morning senator 1 15 p , photo opportunity rose garden present teacher year award 1 30 p , meet principal advisors bosnia 5 00 p , 'll meet president havel photo op top meeting formal press conference afterwards questions \? q moving towards major decision week bosnia \? ms myers 've said , 's continuing discuss options 's talking extensively foreign policy advisors , bosnia advisors , well world leaders 'll try contact president today , 'll continue discuss n't specific timetable , obviously situation serious q called janet reno today yesterday \? ms myers n't believe 's spoken today q nothing say publicly except piece paper put last night 6 40 p \? ms myers answered question yesterday q anything happened ms myers anything happened put q since something happened 's nothing say ms myers 's put statement last night 'll say later today q forum going \? ms myers photo rose garden q talk waco \? ms myers yes , 'll something say q something take live \? ms myers think brief talk little later exact structure work n't know 's something 'd want take live q take questions waco time well \? ms myers 'll probably take q reason n't talked attorney general \? ms myers 'll double check n't know n't talked morning q n't come morning see anyone else \? ms myers q n't talk yesterday \? q 's reaction resignation statement made last night \? ms myers asked question , answered question president absolutely intention asking attorney general 's resignation stands behind 100 percent know , informed decision takes full responsibility , stands 100 percent behind attorney general reno q question arises yesterday told briefed , never got firm idea much knew plan justification plan justification timing fully informed , increasing levels violence inside compound made want go , feeling nothing else going succeed , et cetera \? ms myers talked attorney general decision , talked factors led decision raised objections supports decision go forward fully briefed q course , hindsight 20 20 , looking back , president , white house feel decision signed proved right way go look actually happened \? ms myers think everybody feels bad life lost n't think reason second guess decision stands behind decision made informed fully briefed stands 100 percent behind attorney general , justice department fbi 's difficult operation 's already gone seven weeks four federal agents lost lives line duty let 's forget difficult situation decisions involved difficult agents ground , fbi , justice department recommended moving forward thought , given circumstances , best possible course action 's point second guessing decisions , think 's reason q \? ms myers , second guess decisions think 's important take look , investigation think president talk later today vantage point , second guess decisions , 's useful q sound like 's going order investigation happened whether ms myers think 'll say later , yes q order investigation \? ms myers 'll yes 'll say investigation q kind investigation \? ms myers 'll say later q monday morning , surely soul searching whether right decision ca n't say best could turned rather debacle ms myers think 'll obviously , 'll review situation factors lead tragic outcome n't think anybody disputes outcome tragic , , president stands behind decisions made 'll take look factors contributed q fbi director 's role \? ms myers well , obviously involved setting operation signed , agents ground working n't believe spoke president , 'll double check q closely involved every aspect planning forth \? ms myers would refer fbi exactly aspects involved q janet reno coming white house today \? ms myers 's planned meeting n't believe 'll q wo n't event 1 15 p \? ms myers , plans q think 's going jumping part political opposition make something terms president 's detriment politically \? ms myers well , would certainly hope people would n't try use tragedy political reasons obviously , think , , 's useful look facts , facts , think president move forward think people understand difficult series decisions difficult situation caused man cult leader involved death four federal agents think 's tragic lot innocent children lost lives n't think anybody disputes tragedy outcome q dee dee , white house role handling , guess , public relations aspect aftermath \? talking white house talking people justice set reno 's news conference , sort thing \? ms myers think attorney general handled end situation made decision go ahead news conference point enough information , think , talk accuracy transpired day obviously , people number levels keeping touch people justice department fbi try keep informed happening q reno said n't talk president , seemed indication n't talked anybody white house ms myers people talking staff staff level q understand justice department handling reno \? talking white house \? ms myers number people know , webb hubbell liaison white house , know talked number people number people number different levels involved n't want get exactly conversations , number conversations obviously , justice department working keep white house informed , press informed best ability events throughout day q webb hubbell talk president \? ms myers n't believe n't know talked may one point q white house role seek information happened , direct public information campaign followed \? ms myers keep situation president could top , think justice department managed press relations obviously interested happening throughout day , president following closely throughout day q dee dee , , though , president following closely talked night janet reno , would n't talk since \? ms myers , n't know 's talked morning , 's kept fully aware going throughout day stands 100 percent behind decisions 's fully supportive , said yesterday morning events transpired yesterday afternoon written statement q would n't want convey thoughts personally yesterday \? ms myers one time , n't know 've spoken morning q , yesterday q clearly 's perception left hung dry day yesterday ms myers 's true think said throughout day president takes full responsibility , stands n't know much clearer president stands behind attorney general accepts full responsibility events transpired believes janet reno , justice department , fbi acted best could , given circumstances facts evident time n't know else say show supports 1 , 000 percent q one best indications pick phone tell ms myers , n't know whether 've spoken morning q ca n't find \? ms myers well , ca n't standing right q 've got six people 've got pick phone ms myers helen , 'll get back q dee dee , president spoke attorney general sunday , safe assume either inquired whether possible downside increasing pressure davidians \? ms myers think discussed situation , i'm going get specific details exactly told , think aware risks involved q dee dee , president yesterday morning said entirely decision said told happening said , okay president regard gave go ahead gave go ahead \? ms myers think said yesterday made decision based available facts informed raised objections , n't know much clearer q said , okay issue responsibility ms myers said , okay q okay mean ms myers president accepts ultimate responsibility q dee dee , president 's investigation 's going announce would conducted someone outside administration \? ms myers q would internal meant preclude congressional investigation \? ms myers , 's meant simply follow incidents occurred yesterday q would , assume , therefore , cooperate fully congressional hearings would held \? ms myers best ability q dee dee , two reports morning one justice department , fbi , whomever , apparently bug planted inside complex children may injected kind poison may either left unconscious maybe even killed fire know two ms myers nothing 've seen news accounts morning may get later , point , know i'm sure anybody knows reported people came compound q president received report today terms fatalities actually going 've able find compound \? ms myers 's briefed n't think 've gotten compound yet still waiting cool n't think 's much beyond 's reported news accounts kept date q dee dee , president stands behind attorney general reno , feel perhaps got bad advice called experts \? ms myers believes made stands behind decision made unanimous decision advisors , fbi , agents ground , supports q validity decisions made ground \? back ms myers 's going second guess decisions made q dee dee , said , stands behind decision made normally , situation like , president says , made decision 're saying made decision \? ms myers i'm saying president briefed decision accepts full responsibility q keep using terminology , decision made , rather decision made ms myers , said yesterday , evaluated facts based evidence presented justice department fbi , part justice department , made decision briefed president decision chain command works briefed signed operation went forward , president accepts full responsibility q chain command analogy , want go back sessions moment know plan came reno , presented around involvement \? involvement \? ms myers , 'd go justice department specific interaction attorney general director q president stand behind director sessions \? ms myers supports , n't know many different ways say supports decisions made justice department fbi fully supports attorney general i'm stepping away director fbi , want janet reno one briefed , one made decisions head justice department know , director fbi reports attorney general attorney general made decision informed president decisions n't raise objections , accepts full responsibility q , based know white house , concerns william performance ms myers nothing suggest , q along lines , initial review situation , much think problems might come justice department 's fully staffed fbi director still quite uncertain status \? ms myers n't think anything think agents ground operation went forward i'm going speculate q white house express alarm janet reno chose speak live network media chose speak clinton \? ms myers carrying forward responsibility inform public events yesterday think admirable job president agrees q sunday , often president briefed situation waco \? ms myers kept updated regular basis , daily basis q briefed president \? ms myers well , i'm going get exactly , conversations , kept date events waco daily briefings number issues q , , regular briefing conducted white house staff person , justice department person \? ms myers 's briefed regularly white house staff number issues , i'm going get exactly briefs subjects q another subject \? q another subject q 're going gays military \( laughter \) ms myers welcome q close signing biodiversity treaty \? ms myers know , president 's giving speech earth day tomorrow 'll say q details speech yet \? ms myers 's 11 30 n't know yet q dee dee , major policy address \? would characterize speech tomorrow \? ms myers would characterize earth day speech would n't look major past positions things , , n't want get much 's going talk tomorrow q campus \? q location outside white house \? ms myers somewhere washington n't know exactly yet q dee dee , foreign leaders president talked since friday situation bosnia \? ms myers prime minister major , 'll try reach president morning q david owen said yesterday joe biden said today agree peace process going work , serbs going sign administration still believe work sign \? ms myers obviously , ultimate goal sort peaceful resolution conflict bosnia know , administration considering wide variety options point situation around srebrenica rest eastern bosnia quite serious president meet bosnian advisors today continue press forward q question 're going try deciding whether peace plan remains viable \? ms myers , 'll reviewing number options , including peace plan q group 's meeting today include reg bartholomew \? ms myers n't believe 's among usual secretary christopher , secretary aspin , general powell q dee dee , anything apparent encounter u f bosnia today aircraft violating fly zone \? ms myers , n't 'll get back q president meeting every one leaders coming town holocaust museum \? ms myers 'll meeting , know , havel today tomorrow , rest group tomorrow afternoon q group , one one \? ms myers believe 's group , havel asked meetings early agenda quite time meet foreign heads state q dee dee , president decided whether supports gay lesbian civil rights act \? anything worked address march sunday \? ms myers think 'll probably letter kind statement march n't worked exact details q live phone hook \? ms myers probably , given logistics getting boston speech , know , 4 00 p answer part question , , n't taken position q said speech boston 4 00 p \? ms myers believe , yes q know 's \? ms myers 'll still working q general vessey 's coming back tonight vietnam meeting president \? ms myers specific meeting scheduled 'll talk point see look forward report , exactly 'll make report unclear q 's going come immediately white house \? ms myers q aids czar close \? ms myers still working q drug czar \? q expect march \? ms myers n't time line q president ask senator mitchell try lloyd cutler ploy break filibuster \? ms myers n't believe q \? ms myers 's going q senate democrats hour \? ms myers , 's tomorrow tomorrow 9 30 q update stimulus , possible scaling ms myers know , senate vote amendments today 'll continue talk president committed kind jobs package 'd like see passed 'll continue conversations throughout day see end q briefing give us word speaker whatever whether president 's talked janet reno \? ms myers 'll happy q 's become pressing question last several hours ms myers , minute 've , n't chance follow , helen q opinion \? ms myers mean , obviously , prefers offered compromise package 12 2 billion believes 's best alternative , believes 's obviously willing take second look package think senate vote today , 're hopeful president 's bill , mitchell amendment , one approved q dee dee , white house official march sunday \? ms myers somebody representing president n't know yet q well , decided 's going address \? going videotape phone call \? ms myers think probably letter , n't final decision yet q official read letter , sounds like \? ms myers correct q lloyd bentsen came morning know \? waco thing \? ms myers , actually n't may come , economic issues q health care 17th may still target \? ms myers 's still target q 's talk joint session congress speech end may ms myers n't resolved exactly president present health care plan people would n't rule option , decisions made end10 08 edt
gordon perkins igc apc org subject perot pay 7 income taxes \? nf id n cdp 000 249 nf cdp uucp ! apr 20 19 05 00 1993 lines 6 seeking press references much tax perot pays income taxes 've heard figure 7 percent , since gets income federal municipal bond interest anybody read reliable report somewhere \? thanks !
auburn edu \( john e burton jr \) subject dangerous ideological position nntp posting host organization alabama cooperative extension service , auburn university lines 38 wetware com drieux wetware com \( drieux , drieux \) writes article cbnews cb att com , lvc cbnews cb att com \( larry cipriani \) writes lessons tiananmen square neal knox reprinted guns ammo , september 1989 second amendment important , even todays progressive era included description 1932 bonus march washington , dc gen douglas opposed military force unemployed wwi veterans lobbying government immediately pay promised veteran 's bonus larry , ca n't seriously suggest us government would bunch , would call military protect us government decided forget generation veterans liberal saying advantages armed forces need actually pay services render aware us army called fight \( \) ww veterans \( bonus \) marched dc demanding bonuses promised service depression , wanted early john burton auburn edu opinions ,
evansmp uhura aston ac uk \( mark evans \) subject new study gay percentage nntp posting host uhura organization aston university x newsreader tin version 1 1 lines 29 alan morgan \( efi com \) wrote article optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes might except gay men much promiscuous straight men shows damaged screwed gay men okay , let us say agree gay men much promiscuous straight men indicate screwed people \? btw occurs since , experience , men much interested sex women want sex much earlier relationship women , homosexuals would sex often simply becuase partner like mind e heterosexual men would promiscuous could 's observation women likely strongly wanting sex men also definite double standards men women promiscuous could also factor communication direct homosexual relationships culture mark evans evansmp uhura aston ac uk \( 44 \) 21 429 9199 \( home \) evansmp cs aston ac uk \( 44 \) 21 359 6531 \( office \)
nelson p apollo hp com \( peter nelson \) subject employment \( concentrate child molesters \? nntp posting host c ch apollo hp com organization hewlett packard corporation , chelmsford , lines 67 article 1993apr20 galileo cc rochester edu as010b uhura cc rochester edu \( tree schnopia \) writes wow , n't realized getting ! careful problem n't rich values systems make rich rich values systems make rich rich basically amount freedom choice new england 1800 entire economy based small family farm farm economy households economically , producing agricultural goods also manufactured goods , especially cloth many farm women , spun , , producing cloth family also sell , generating extra income time industrial revolution underway england 1820 's moved us , cases form mills mills could produce cloth far efficiently cheaply people home result important source home income wiped many women compelled economic circumstance go work mills lowell , mass , nashua , nh , worked 73 hour weeks deafening , dangerous conditions , living lives exposed cotton dust infectious dis due work people n't buy cheaper factory made cloth free keep buying home made variety support local economy things designed way order go system make money , everything else care goes shit \( sorry cliche \) , takes two big rich corporations achieved wealth buy stuff used case business center town also social center knew merchants business even local kids working behind counter would see people street knew could stop chat nowadays local merchants going business people shop huge anonymous malls serving regional populations hundreds thousands millions particular relationship companies business , feel particular commitment , major components defines com destroyed hand products buy malls lot cheaper due economies scale foreign manufacture , probably better , least consistent , quality constantly remind goal human society make money money n't make us happy prevents certain things making us unhappy therefore , n't shoot rich shoot conservatives ! n't blame conservatives everyone makes individual choice liberals fence guilty pretending social cultural consequences economic choices peter
mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com \( mark wilson \) subject waco burnout organization ncr engineering manufacturing atlanta atlanta , ga distribution usa lines 30 rigel tamu edu mst4298 rigel tamu edu \( mitchell todd \) writes article visser convex convex com , visser convex com \( lance visser \) writes ca n't wait investigation considering everyone dead place burnt ground , guess honest citizens take word atf much threat people look history koresh captured mount carmel complex ago gun battle rival bd sect , leaving one person dead n't exactly peace loving bunch wonder getting mis information straight batf \? koresh followers capture compound years ago , always years ago argument lead group , erupted one person died koresh charged murder sheriff came arrest , sheriff knocked showed koresh warrant \( tactic batf might try learning \) koresh others charged surrendered trial ensued , others found innocent , jury hung koresh 's charge mob rule n't prettier merely mob calls government ai n't charity using someone else 's money wilson 's theory relativity go back far enough , 're related mark wilson atlantaga ncr com
pjs269 tijc02 uucp \( paul schmidt \) subject limiting govt \( employment \( concentrate \) organization advocates self government davy crockett chapter x newsreader tin 1 1 pl4 lines 27 chris holt newcastle ac uk \( chris holt \) writes 's quite possible buyer seller trust third party either trust , desire moderation third party random third party assumes right interfere transaction wishes primary participants , odds pretty good results detrimental try ensure process deciding whether introduce third parties n't random steve said , examples third parties less ignorant corrupt two primary parties knowledge able help \? third party able use persuasion sway transaction , hand , condone use force threat violence third party , trouble fourth party could say knows better parties 1 , 2 , 3 fifth party wins \? one use force threat force best words might makes right let 's abandon aggressive tactics work voluntary cooperation respect others libertarians want paul schmidt advocates self government , davy crockett chapter president 706 judith drive , johnson city , tn , \( 615 \) 283 , uunet ! tijc02 ! pjs269 freedom seems unleashed creative energies people leads ever higher levels income social progress u n report
clinton hq campaign92 org \( white house \) subject clinton president 's remarks photo op havel organization mit artificial intelligence lab lines 70 nntp posting host life ai mit edu white house office press secretary immediate release april 20 , 1993 remarks president photo opportunity havel oval office 5 00 p edt q mr president , president havel holocaust museum opening , toured museum last night focus holocaust , weigh decision making process far bosnia concerned \? president well , think holocaust extreme example world ever known ethnic cleansing think even limited manifestations , 's idea opposed could n't help thinking 's compare two examples 're identical everyone knows think united states always seek opportunity stand least speak inhumanity q sir , close decision sanctions bosnia \? president well , course , 've got u n vote ambassador albright instrumental u n vote strengthen sanctions quite tough putting heads business implementing looking options ought consider n't anything else say , except tell spent quite bit time continue next several days q following meeting today , sir , closer sort u military presence \? president made decisions q president clinton , decided meet mr havel \? president well , i'm honored would come see i'm glad 's united states dedication holocaust museum figure widely admired country around world , important person europe , important person united states i'm hoping 'll chance talk new czech republic kinds things together support causes believe 05 p edt
an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) subject janet reno killed waco children organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 22 reply an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu previous article , tzs stein u washington edu \( tim smith \) says an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) writes aside fact disagree w , offer resign president rejected offer willing take responsibility , president balls enough stand decision contempt ignore yup , quite president make decision 12 disagree ignorance showing batf warrant unsealed entire operation illegal day one clinton reno supported 86 people dead
an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) subject waco burnout organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 28 reply an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu previous article , mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com \( mark wilson \) says rigel tamu edu mst4298 rigel tamu edu \( mitchell todd \) writes article visser convex convex com , visser convex com \( lance visser \) writes ca n't wait investigation considering everyone dead place burnt ground , guess honest citizens take word atf much threat people batf warrant unsealed yesterday entire operation illegal day one authority knock raid authority use texas helicopters authority search drug lab atf lies clinton reno lying
ddn cbnews cb att com \( david \) subject waco organization distribution usa lines 32 n't want attack anyone 's personal opinions thus included articles seems incredibly ridiculous pompous someone sit back benefit hindsight point fingers clinton , reno , fbi , whomever first , knee jerk judgement facts quite point likely quite secondly , things improve pointing blame fingers pointing fingers destructive action everyone sat around pointing fingers time , nothing would get done nothing would ever get better despite tragedy , learn something approached constructive manner n't seem working together productive working one another \? thirdly , seems incredibly hypocritical place blame given benefit hindsight something made decisions benefit give courtesy acknowledging best could data , difficult situation responses gone far suggest actions done without regard lives people compound give break part solution problem 's opinion david
fierro uts amdahl com \( doug fierro \) subject clinton professionals review reform options organization amdahl corporation , sunnyvale ca lines 28 article life ai mit edu clinton hq campaign92 org \( white house \) writes white house office communications immediate release contact bob thursday , april 22 , 1993 phone 202 456 health professionals review clinton proposal develops many mds list enough opinion doug doug fierro uts system software case tools development fierro uts amdahl com \( 408 \) 746
pajerek telstar kodak com \( pajerek \) subject 's next \? mormons jews \? reply pajerek telstar kodak com \( pajerek \) organization digital equipment corp telstar distribution usa lines 34 article agate berkeley edu isaackuo spam berkeley edu \( isaac kuo \) writes article 1993apr22 cs okstate edu kennejs cs okstate edu \( kennedy james scot \) writes speculating fbi purposely started fire \? ! \? ! \? please , 've got ridiculously extraordinary claim , evidence whatsoever , least give us reason fbi would want thing possibility fire started accidentally much reasonable , n't anything contradictory anecdotal evidence right isaac kuo \( isaackuo math berkeley edu \) mr kuo n't recall seeing around much \( least p \) let clue newsgroup p populated largely people whose hatred u government , especially government mr clinton , literally people , suggestion agents u government would carry spectacular massacre citizens , full view tv cameras , 's another day life united states n't suggest reason fbi would want publicly massacre citizens seen 'the crying \? 's nature pajerek standard disclaimers apply
kaldis romulus rutgers edu \( theodore kaldis \) subject median \? \? \? new study gay percentage organization rutgers univ , new brunswick , n j lines 17 article darkstar ucsc edu stephen orchid ucsc edu writes santa rosa \( cal \) press democrat , april 15 , 1993 , p b2 male sex survey gay activity low note contradictory title gay activity low vocabulary test please define following words \) contradictory b \) ambiguous views expressed herein theodore kaldis seriously kaldis remus rutgers edu believe major university ! rutgers ! remus rutgers edu ! kaldis would hold views \? \? \?
kaldis romulus rutgers edu \( theodore kaldis \) subject new study gay percentage organization rutgers univ , new brunswick , n j lines 23 article optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes elf sternberg less 10 population gay , say people n't identify gay demonstrated gay potential obviously , large chunk people chose \( , accurately , forced choose force religion social sanction \) put feelings aside , heterosexual obviously , cramer kaldis fall category ca n't speak kaldis force religion social sanction played part sexual preferences neither much influence teenager might well certainly would error would views expressed herein theodore kaldis seriously kaldis remus rutgers edu believe major university ! rutgers ! remus rutgers edu ! kaldis would hold views \? \? \?
kaldis romulus rutgers edu \( theodore kaldis \) subject new study gay percentage organization rutgers univ , new brunswick , n j lines 26 article 1993apr19 maths tcd ie pmoloney maths tcd ie \( paul moloney \) writes theodore kaldis join pythagorean reform church ! repent evil irrational numbers bean eating ways accept 10 heart ! call pythagorean reform church bbs 508 793 9568 smacks bigotry smack idiocy , n't suppose 've heard pythagoras \? indeed heard pythagoras , n't know ever bean eater american southwest west \( e g , texas , california , colorado \) , term bean eater sometimes used hispanic heritage \( generally mexicans , parts \) much like irish northeast perceived \( \) beer views expressed herein theodore kaldis seriously kaldis remus rutgers edu believe major university ! rutgers ! remus rutgers edu ! kaldis would hold views \? \? \?
munoz sweetpea jsc nasa gov \( tomas munoz \) subject janet reno killed waco children organization mdssc distribution na lines 30 article 1993apr20 153450 27407 ncsu edu , dsh eceyv ncsu edu \( doug holtsinger \) writes situation waco similar hostage situation madman holding gun head innocent person situation , person provokes madman causes pull gun 's trigger responsible death hostage janet reno blindly stumbled basically threw tear gas container madman hoping would release hostage 's surprise madman would pull trigger response kind provocation curiosity , else situation \? wait another 51 days weeks months years \? \? \? anything indicating children people going get alive \? tom munoz thought day one million one fish munoz sweetpea jsc nasa gov
clinton hq campaign92 org \( white house \) subject clinton press briefing dee dee myers 4 23 93 organization mit artificial intelligence lab lines 710 nntp posting host life ai mit edu white house office press secretary immediate release april 23 , 1993 press briefing dee dee myers briefing room 10 35 edt ms myers 1 00 p , 're press conference , bill , east room saturday president leave roughly 8 00 fly jamestown spend day , overnight camp david sunday , 's unclear exactly time 'll leave camp david fly boston 'll leave hagerstown press plane leave washington meet q kind plane 's taking \? ms myers 's taking \? 'll probably take c 20 q hagerstown \? ms myers hagerstown air force one n't fly hagerstown , apparently q pool travel \? ms myers pool meet ahead time guess pool travel press plane wait airport currently provision 'll double check , 's currently provision think 's standard operating practice q pool going meet watch get plane hagerstown \? ms myers n't believe q time boston \? ms myers 's going meet group citizens , mostly people supported us campaign , around 1 30 p 're still working final times q airport \? ms myers , boston harbor hotel also meet youth group authored something called project 21 speech publishers actually 3 15 p followed q speech q , 'll attend reception publishers , return washington boston 's weekend q president seen report letter , communication foreign service officers also , obviously , communication madeleine albright \? reaction call \? ms myers well , obviously , letter written secretary christopher believe secretary christopher received letter saturday reviewed met authors monday discuss views believes 's important part policy making process taking views account go forward development bosnia policy q president 's reaction \? ms myers president n't seen letter something directed towards secretary christopher terms n't seen specifically letter , terms concerns generally , president said lot options table , including ones n't think 's , everybody , concerned situation bosnia q influenced \? mean , feel fact specialists area desk officers ms myers many specialists area think clearly part process 's something views clearly considered think secretary christopher met group immediately discuss views think believes ought room opinions opinions ought considered , particularly people work closely issues q mean , options table n't \? ms myers think president said last week options , lifting arms embargo bosnian muslims , previously table considered q dee dee , terms options , madeleine albright saying potentially could unilateral action u europeans go along table \? ms myers well , ca n't discuss anything would conversations would happened ambassador albright president think president said would certainly working european allies 's number conversations european leaders trying build consensus q reach decision anything specific say today \? ms myers mean , term new announcement policy today q statement mean ruled unilateral action \? ms myers 's continuing consult allies point said think 's fairly clear , believes u needs act concert allies q point , believe u , though , built authority united nations already take unilateral action \? ms myers well , think u n resolution 770 makes clear act unilaterally support humanitarian relief effort think broader point anything , options decide pursue make sure consistent u n authority , 's , 'll work allies make sure get q dee dee , white house someone distinguished elie wiesel , says enough done stop atrocities going bosnia \? ms myers think 's 're considering additional options think mr wiesel 's comments yesterday quite compelling situation bosnia tragic president concerned think president clinton worked hard take actions continue isolate serbia world community clearly , 're considering options president concerned perhaps 's enough q terms talking , sounds like resolution 770 justifies unilateral action u protect humanitarian ms myers n't think would n't use word justify permits unilateral action country protecting delivery humanitarian relief think 's explanation resolution think action take consistent u n resolutions 'll work allies make sure permissible 'll get action q president officials ruled unilateral u action bosnia past 're declining morning ms myers , said president said repeatedly wants act concert allies q n't mean wo n't act alone , said explicitly ms myers n't mean imply change policy president said along wants act concert allies q one little question know letter foreign service officers hit papers \? ms myers n't believe secretary christopher may private conversation president seen q met monday , right \? christopher met surely , must brought ms myers , may talked privately , q dee dee , 're saying albright recommendation rejected , correct \? ms myers , n't say said wo n't said would n't comment conversations communications q 's advocating unilateral action 're saying , effect , take unilateral action ms myers confirming anything madeleine albright may may recommended q given sometimes delicate , complicated frustrating nature negotiations allies issue , president find kind letter 12 foreign service officers state department helpful process , \? ms myers think views obviously considered secretary received memo saturday two days later met order thorough views , basis views , discuss greater detail options presented letter q n't put kind pressure additional pressure within administration act regardless allies may may \? ms myers think clearly 's broad policy review underway president advisors considering number options , including outlined letter folks state department , decisions made yet , think review underway , opinions seriously considered q follow , guess i'm looking reaction letter \? say , good , bolsters position \? say , damn , n't need right \? ms myers think said helps contribute debate 's important views considered aired thoroughly , makes decision wants best possible advice information possible , , think many ways , goal q internal advice cabinet official president 's open , would n't take say line \? ms myers think fact secretary christopher met discuss views make sure opportunity complete conversation conclusive evidence views welcome q policy review include madeleine albright suggested , joe biden others suggested , previous u n resolutions authorize unilateral action military action delivery humanitarian ms myers think options table q unilateral option table \? ms myers think options table q 've two different q n't change , dee dee \? q would change policy q particularly includes ground troops , specifically ruled ms myers think president well , n't q talking options \? ms myers options think president fairly clear let review said said president said options table , exception introduction ground troops , never suggested ruled beginning q n't ruled unilateral action sort \? ms myers said n't believe u solve problems former yugoslavia think number complicated options table right n't think , n't want comment specific options considered broad categories 've already said things like lifting arms embargo bosnian muslims , things think 've talked broad terms complicated situation options presented considered complicated q air strikes table \? ms myers , think 's fairly clearly pointed 's something 's discussed q dee dee , ground troops ms myers , ground troops considered q said going said announcing change policy said everything table 're confused unilateral actions table \? ms myers tell president said n't believe wants act concert allies q wants , 's willing mean , n't go along ms myers 's continuing consult allies 's continuing discussions 's continuing press action think 's clear conversation ongoing 're going continue work find best possible solution next step q dee dee , allies taken position conduct kind air strikes bosnia would opposite effect ensuring delivery humanitarian aid feel troops ground monitoring delivery aid would become vulnerable bosnians ms myers i'm sure 's consistent mean , i'm sure 're referring q british french q yes , british french 've taken position delivery humanitarian aid would kind air strikes bosnian military u believe differently \? ms myers president conversations major , know think thorough review policy going countries well n't want comment nature president 's discussions say 's continuing consult allies move forward 's continuing press action think process ongoing q day voted military intervention yesterday president regard end line still hold possibility unilateral action \? allies , plain want anything ms myers consultations ongoing 's tell point q saying wo n't announcement bosnia today press conference \? ms myers , intention press conference q intention \? ms myers 's opportunity take questions may brief i'm sure 'll brief opening statement , opportunity outline new policy bosnia happen q tell us subject opening statement \? ms myers 's sort general statement q first hundred days , mean \? ms myers 's long statement mean , generally n't look major policy pronouncements q know opening statement \? ms myers 's perhaps later today 'll able tell certainty think 's still review overriding purpose 's mystery 's meant 's take questions q would helpful know whether opening statement ms myers since major purpose take questions , 's completely resolved yet q dee dee , one policy expected last week white house , george seemed indicate might get , would aids czar announce today \? 's delay \? ms myers n't think meant imply think said would happen soon n't think meant imply certainty would week coming soon n't anticipate happening today q 's delay \? n't perfect time announce aids czar \? ms myers n't know 's delay think process ongoing find best possible person go necessary background checks , make sure 've crossed 's dotted 's make announcement q dee dee , baird 's qualifications foreign intelligence advisory board \? n't appointment announced \? ms myers qualifications n't know 's specific list 'll check see think number people board different backgrounds many long histories intelligence government service think 's broad variety views across political spectrum across backgrounds represented never made formal announcement chairman board , admiral william crowe q would appoint , though , american people many senate rejected another government job \? ms myers n't believe american people ever voted certainly never rejected senate never went hearing president believes 's competent person 's said baird understand question \? baird president 's foreign intelligence q said never went hearing \? q withdrawn public outrage violating federal laws \? ms myers right , never never said rejected senate simply trying point never voted senate q n't think problem \? ms myers n't think 's problem q appointed board , fact \? ms myers yes q need confirmation \? need confirmation member ms myers 's presidential appointment q usually , announcements made white house decision announce publicly \? ms myers n't make announcement people asked told members board n't make official announcement anybody 's interested certainly put list names q 'd like know q n't board members n't normally matter routinely put releases boards presidential appointment regardless dimension \? ms myers always , , i'm happy put q n't standard practice \? q past practice ms myers , i'm happy put 'll put list members board today q dee dee , n't want try fail let get swamp \( laughter \) really want know n't practice administration announcements made routinely \? ms myers think generally always 're happy put today q board , title , size board \? ms myers roughly dozen members board civilian board , although , obviously , retired military personnel board provide input intelligence policy president , chairman board admiral william crowe q recommend baird \? q 's name board \? ms myers 's president 's foreign intelligence advisory board , q 's qualification employed illegal alien \? \( laughter \) ms myers want answer question want make joke \? q let phrase another way n't appointment viewed pay back difficulty couple months ago \? ms myers 's q 's experience foreign intelligence \? ms myers 's experienced attorney , someone president believes competent qualified think part mission board provide civilian input everybody board supposed intelligence expert board 's mission provide civilian input president makes decisions regarding intelligence matters believes 's qualified , competent person , enormously talented said throughout q imagination , discussion early abolishing president 's foreign intelligence advisory board \? ms myers n't think december 24th , announced foreign policy advisors announced would appointed admiral crowe head board n't believe 's ever q earlier , transition ms myers , n't believe announced , , december 24th admiral crowe could n't , announced q members paid \? ms myers n't believe , 'll double check q another subject , waco , explain discrepancy federal reports autopsies bodies coming waco state \? guess 's texas ranger reports ms myers information coming federal information coming site clearly , 's discrepancies justice department looking officials justice department told , believe day yesterday , several bodies found bullet holes think 's discrepancy , justice department looking q president going get involved trying sort seems becoming morass , people withdrawing , others saying 're charge , others justice , fbi , texas rangers grabbing piece \? ms myers n't know 's going try dispute mean , 'll let know 's anything intends know , several levels investigation ongoing , 're hopeful work together q one agency official charge everything \? ms myers n't know 'll get back q subject matter sunday 's speech \? ms myers 's going fairly general n't think 's going specific announcements think 's going sort q topic 's going talk \? ms myers 're still working would n't look announcements , like , drug czar something like q sort 100 days speech , sort excellent adventure 100 days \? \( laughter \) ms myers exactly , think 'll take little bit broader look 's happened last q foreign , domestic \? ms myers little bit , think lot domestic q overview ms myers yes , overview specific policy announcement q agreement yet forum president address gay rights march sunday \? ms myers letter read crowd nancy q available \? ms myers yet , sure q going put ms myers 'll probably put sunday q travel next week \? ms myers unclear q question \? q likely \? ms myers n't q likely \? possible \? ms myers possible q 's possible \? ms myers travel q george mentioned yesterday campaign finance reform national service legislative proposals next week days yet \? ms myers yet q tell us order \? ms myers campaign finance reform first national service later week q coverage tomorrow \? ms myers q report aftermath day \? ms myers readout day \? q readout ms myers 's possible jeff think go president day n't expect photo op anything , departure morning q dee dee , president made regular practice , predecessors , going camp david fact , 's twice \? ms myers twice q weekend \? ms myers went two weekends ago , know , way home father law 's funeral think found good experience nice way spend time together family opportunity q 's march q nothing march \? ms myers q since 's going town sunday morning instead jamestown , thought making quick pass , fly \( laughter \) ms myers 'll fly straight boston q flying straight say \? \( laughter \) q george took question yesterday waco president said tuesday rose garden minor disagreement tactics military advisors fbi question whether knew exactly whether related use particular kind tear gas answer \? ms myers n't 'll check press thank end10 59 edt
v2110a vm temple edu \( richard hoenes \) subject waco investigation organization temple university lines 5 nntp posting host vm temple edu x newsreader nnr vm 1 3 2 know yet holding hearings \? , , know committee question \? i'm sure many us potential questions 'd like send richard
kane buast7 bu edu \( hot young star \) subject new study gay percentage organization astronomy department , boston university , boston , , usa lines 24 article 15427 optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes homosexuals lie 10 number hide disproportionate involvement homosexuals child molestation also lie 10 keep politicians scared 1 n't shown disproportionate involvement 2 janus report , came recently , gives 9 percentage exclusively predominantly gay men 3 one presumably going say 're gay 're doubt going hide homosexuality surveys thus 1 2 lower limit still say weighing evidence gives likely percentage 5 7 brian kane buast7 , astro bu edu \( hot young star \) astronomy dept , boston university , boston , 02215 true personal salvation achieved absolute faith ones true self
clinton hq campaign92 org \( white house \) subject clinton president 's press conference 4 23 93 organization mit artificial intelligence lab lines 838 nntp posting host life ai mit edu white house office press secretary immediate release april 23 , 1993 press conference president east room 1 00 p edt president terry , question \? q mr president , 's growing feeling western response bloodshed bosnia woefully inadequate holocaust survivor elie wiesel asked yesterday something , anything stop fighting united states considering taking unilateral action air strikes serb artillery sites \? president well , first let say , know , week seriously reviewing options action want say , , let 's look last three months since became president worked allies tried move forward , first fly zone , enforcement , humanitarian , war crimes investigation , getting bosnian muslims involved peace process made progress much tougher sanctions resolution leon , national security advisor vice president , europe working implementing going make big difference serbia reviewing options think act lead united states lead led last three months moved coalition fair , allies europe willing part troops ground think act alone , unilaterally , think next several days think extensive review going taken lot time , well time administration , , last 10 days think 'll finish near future 'll policy 'll announce everybody evaluate q follow \? president sure q see parallel ethnic cleansing bosnia holocaust \? president think holocaust whole different level think without precedent peer human history hand , ethnic cleansing kind inhumanity holocaust took nth degree idea moving people around abusing often killing solely ethnicity thing especially troublesome area people different ethnic groups live side side long together think stand think 's wrong talking today troubles region happy see violence croats muslims bosnia morning , think 're making progress front 's going serbians ethnic cleansing qualitatively different conflicts , within former yugoslavia parts region q mr president , count , good week presidency tragedy waco , defeat stimulus bill , standoff bosnia wrong going differently \? look things \? \? \( laughter \) president n't really believe situation bosnia 's good week world , n't know administration could made different stimulus package , 'd like put larger context remind 100 days already fundamentally changed direction american government abandoned trickle economics 've abandoned policies brought debt country 1 trillion 4 trillion decade budget plan , passed congress , reduce deficit increase investment , led 20 year low mortgage rates , dramatically lower interest rates probably people room home last three months , access cheaper credit 's going put tens billion dollars throughout economy ways , good country moving right direction economically regret stimulus pass , begun ask continue ask people administration , people congress whether something could done differently pass part reason n't pass politics part difference ideas really people still believe 's needed disagree think recovery say 's underway two years , 've still 16 months seven percent unemployment , wealthy countries trouble creating jobs think idea base argument , 're waiting lower interest rates deficit reduction investments next four years take effect , sort supplemental appropriation go forward , tell , majority republican senators sitting senate voted similar stimulus ronald reagan president 1983 , voted 28 times regular supplemental appropriations like hope learn something 've 90 days , know , governor working contentious legislature 12 years , took decade get political reform takes time change things basically feel good 's happened first 100 days regard congress q waco president well , regard waco n't much add 've already said think want situation looked want us bring people insights bear think 's important whole thing thoroughly gone still maintain said beginning , offender david koresh think united states government responsible fact bunch fanatics decided kill i'm sorry killed children q mr president , follow partly helen stimulus package political approach capitol hill , ross perot said today 're playing games american people tax policy strongly critical stimulus package said 's going launch advertising campaign north american free trade agreement going handle political criticism \? efforts hill economic plan \? plan things stimulus program try hill \? president let answer question first 're going revisit next days i'm going talking members congress others see regard economic plan , must say found rather amazing n't want get argument mr perot 'll interested hear specifics , would go back read book plan 's remarkable convergence except specific budget cuts , raise taxes less middle class wealthy , otherwise , plans remarkably similar think would 'll interested see maybe perhaps 's changed position book last year new ideas bring bear 'll glad hear q follow , sir , plan handle political criticism \? 's launched campaign think sit back president well , first , ask apply level scrutiny 's changed position positions took campaign last year , need know ideas maybe 's got constructive ideas think american people shown 're impatient people n't want produce results one thing think everybody figured last even n't agree want get something done came try change things want things want things help people 's lives judgment makes suggestion good , constructive , takes us beyond idea 've proposed change people 's lives better , fine think ought test apply everyone weighs debate president q mr president , go back bosnia minute continue insist multilateral action , criteria seems us comes many options thus far makes look state united states last remaining appropriate situation united states act unilaterally \? president well , united states surely would agree , united states , even last remaining , act consistent international law mandate united nations q mandate president , one things review n't ruled option action would remind , ruled option , except discussed considering introduction american forces continuing hostilities reviewing options also would remind , fair , allies french , british canadians troops ground worried supported , sanctions welcomed american delegation europe , working make sanctions really work really bite serbia tell nations involved also genuinely position , would rule fact reach agreement concerted action goes beyond n't criticism british , french others q would military action \? q mr president , several leading lights administration , ranging fbi director u n ambassador , deputy budget director health services secretary , issued statements last couple weeks absolutely contradictory positions 've taken administration \? losing political grip \? president give example q example \? judge sessions said child abuse waco madeleine albright said morning 's newspapers , least , favors air strikes bosnia things said n't support president first , n't know know david koresh sex children think undisputed , \? \? anybody dispute \? come qualifies child abuse know people teaching kids kill think qualifies abuse i'm criticizing judge sessions n't know exactly said terms madeleine albright , madeleine albright made public statement air strikes press report wrote confidential letter expressed memo expressed views new direction take response request senior members administration let know thought ought next heard others think ought next i'm going discuss recommendations made , next days make decision , announce i'm going would n't say either one examples qualifies speaking school q value added tax , mr president \? president \? q value added tax mrs rivlin miss shalala said thought good idea president n't mind saying think 's good idea kinds arguments policy grounds mean decided incorporate health care debate decision made objection expressing views 've lot people business labor come us saying thought tax would help make particular industries competitive global economy took n't taking line administration policy q mr president , week ago group gay lesbian representatives came meeting expressed ringing terms , confidence understanding political aspirations , belief would fulfill aspirations feel able meet enhanced expectations \? president well , n't know n't know depends expectations 'll tell believe country 's policies heavily biased favor believe tell people ca n't certain things country people , ought overwhelming compelling reason believe need services people , said consistently political proposition first time issue came 1991 boston asked question might add 's interesting attacked obviously , disagree primarily coming political right america governor , attacked direction sticking rights religious fundamentalists run child care centers practice home schooling appropriate safeguards always almost libertarian view try protect rights american individual citizens live fullest capacities , i'm going stick right q concerned , sir , may generated expectations end criticism among others administration sense far great emphasis issue \? president yes , placed great deal emphasis 's gotten lot emphasis quarters press 've simply taken position tried see 's n't take lot time president say believe intend , 's 'll continue q mr president , getting back situation bosnia understand n't made final decisions new options previously considered unacceptable two commonly heard options would lifting arms embargo enable bosnian muslims defend initiate limited air strikes , perhaps , cut supply lines without telling us decision presumably , n't made final decisions two options pros cons going mind right weigh heavily final decision \? president i'm reluctant get two options options considered pluses supporters opponents within administration congress , , would remind , heavy consultations required new policy believe air strike issue , pronouncements general powell made generally military action , apply take action , united states takes action , must clearly defined objective met must able understand limitations must clear united states , , become involved partisan war regard lifting arms embargo , question obviously capacity people fight help get settlement bring peace \? lead bloodshed \? kind reaction others would undermine effectiveness policy \? think deserve serious consideration , along options q think people trying get us war bosnia really remembering n't taken care hundreds thousands veterans last war could n't take care prisoners get home vietnam \? many coming bills treatment agent orange afford go wars \? president well , think 's good argument united states becoming involved war , , world 's super power lead world serious problem systematic ethnic cleansing former yugoslavia , could enormous humanitarian consequences goodness knows many also could practical consequences nearby regions sorts ethnic tensions exist q make kind agreement boris yeltsin hold either air strikes kind aggressive action serbs sunday \? general , political situation affected bosnia \? president , made agreement , ask never even discussed , interestingly enough russians , would remind , middle president yeltsin 's campaign , attempt get tougher sanctions united nations thought proper decision one united states , i'm sure , rest free world much appreciated q wish , mr president , 'd become involved planning waco operation \? would handle situation differently \? president n't think practical matter president become involved planning kinds things detail one things i'm sure come look questions asked answered , us line command ask questions asked get answers gotten \? look forward time , say , , first thing atf agents killed , knew fbi going go , ask military consulted quasi , least , military nature conflict given resources koresh compound obvious willingness use day action , asked questions attorney general reported previously , time thought sufficient said , i'm sure leave others make suggestions whether questions asked q mr president , assessment director role waco affair \? made decision future \? n't , give personal hearing decide \? president well , first , assessment role since direct contact mean negative positive inference assessment stand said general high regard fbi i'm waiting recommendation attorney general direction fbi q mr president , since said one side bosnia conflict represents inhumanity holocaust carried nth degree , tell us united states cannot take partisan view war \? president well , said principle ethnic cleansing something ought stand mean united states united nations enter war , effect , redraw lines , geographical lines republics within yugoslavia , would ultimately successful think united states try figure whether way consistent forcing people resolve difficulties stand stop ethnic cleansing obviously difficulty wrestling clearly difficult foreign policy problem face , allies face easy , suppose would solved tried last 90 days previously done clearly enough stop serbian aggression , looking else q yesterday specifically criticized roosevelt administration bombed concentration camps things near military targets n't steps like would involve conflict direct conflict partisan might consider \? president may would remind circumstances somewhat different war germany time 's made whole incident series incidents say , 've got options review q diplomatic initiative haiti verge collapse salvage short full scale military operation \? president well , may know something n't 's people tell think mr ambassador done together good job thing keeps going back forth people involved de facto government 's obvious concerns concerns led aristide first place , president aristide , feel , restored power 're working toward get report discuss least three times week , i'm convinced 're going prevail successful believe 's every reason think sort multilateral presence try guarantee security freedom violence people sides try establish conditions ongoing civilized society believe 're going prevail q mr president , would care make assessment first 100 days make one \? \( laughter \) president well , 'll say believe , first , passed budget resolution record time biggest issue confirmed direction administration confirmed commitments campaign could bring deficit increase investment , could specific spending cuts raising taxes , almost come highest income people society reversing 12 year trend tax burdens borne middle class , whose incomes going taxes going , deficit went 1 trillion 4 trillion , total national debt , deficit continued go 20 year low interest rates lower interest rates across board tens billions dollars flooding back economy people debt established new environmental policy , dramatically different secretary education worked others governors establish new approach education focuses tough standards , well increasing opportunity done enormous amount work political reform , campaign finance lobbying reform imposed tough ethics requirements administration 's officials things consistent said 'd campaign , turning country around vice president heading task force literally change way federal government operates make much responsive citizens country working whole range things welfare reform initiative , move people welfare work , course , massive amount work done health care issue , huge economic personal security problem millions americans think amazing much done done also passed family leave bill version motor voter bill come conference back yet everything passed except stimulus program think 're fine 're moving right direction feel good q sir , follow would n't say , though , one biggest initiatives , aid soviet russia , practically finished ca n't pass stimulus bill country , \? president let question little bit 's good question \( laughter \) 's good question , fair 've got already first round aid soviet non soviet russia , democratic russia , plainly going go , first 1 6 billion aid agreed partners g 7 provide international financial institutions , big dollar item , plainly going go question , get aid russia requires new appropriation united states congress \? question think , mary , resolved weeks ahead , part happens american workers jobs future think two things tied many members congress q report came morning , documenting horrendous nearly criminal conduct part navy much discuss incident might done nominee secretary navy \? president first , let comment little inspector general 's report details conduct wrong place armed services expect report acted appropriate way also want say american people report taken , disturbing list allegations thoroughly examined taken general indictment united states navy fine people serve specific allegations , pursued thing said secretary designate navy thing said , think , expected take report duty believe q mr president , back russia minute latest poll show mr yeltsin probably win vote confidence seems real toss whether voters going endorse economic reforms president understand q live split \( laughter \) live split decision , though , need passed order build support russian aid \? president believe answer question , united states , key question posed democracy , wins election wins election , ratified russian people continue president , think best work toward reform know , lot countries holocaust museum dedication leaders leaders eastern europe , leaders least one republic former soviet union terrible economic challenges convert communist command control economy market economy world 's economic slowdown everywhere world 's economic slowdown difficulty , leaders trouble policies popular poll n't produced results people earnestly understand confidence leadership , think 's ask united states russian people ratify president stick united states continue work think genuine democrat small genuinely committed reform think support q mr president , mr perot come strongly perceived behind line free trade agreement hard going fight free trade agreement expect see accomplished \? president think 'll agreement ready fairly near future know , people still working mexican government canadians side agreements 're trying work environmental agreement say , labor agreement say , way deal enforcement mexicans say , merit position , 're worried transferring sovereignty enforcement multilateral commission even united states , fair , folks worried giving hand , 're going environmental agreement labor standards agreement means something , ultimately consequences violating 're trying agree approach would say pattern violations keep violating past certain point maybe isolated incident , pattern violation going enforcement must consequences 're working details still feel quite good area disagree mr perot others think win big fair agreement integrates closely mexican economy american economy leads us chile market economies latin america , gives us bigger world trade think 's way rich country grow richer look japan countries pacific reach region , 's pretty good lesson us better worry build bridges area idea battle know , 've got lot questions want answer , let say every one things distilled simply politics know , 's 's , person , somebody else got lot things honestly involved real debates ideas , 's right wrong world toward 're moving answers self evident one reasons wanted run president wanted sort open debating ideas could try change appropriate way difference opinion believe concept sound , even though , know , thought details needed improved q mr president , tremendous flurry interest earlier month russian document purported show vietnamese held back american prisoners general vessey said publicly document authentic , believes incorrect personal view point issue \? broadly , believe , fact , vietnamese return american prisoners time paris peace accord \? president first let say , saw general vessey went vietnam returned high regard appreciate willingness serve country way whether document basis fact , let say government vietnam forthcoming past gave us documents would tend undermine validity russian documents claim know whether right wrong basically evaluated time , complete evaluation , 'll tell , course , want tell families missing action think 'll able make progress eliminating questions outstanding cases result last interchange , cannot say i'm fully satisfied know need know still cases n't know answer believe 're making progress encouraged last trip q 'd like follow u relations , allows trade go forward , personally sure every case resolved would willing go forward basis may take years resolve cases , vietnamese made sufficient offerings us confirm good faith \? president lot experts say never resolve every case , every one , could n't resolve cases still cases factually resolved , going back second world war would convinced gone long way toward resolving every case could resolved moment time , complete , open unrestricted commitment continue everything could done always keep resolving cases 're yet , guided little bit people know lot confess much heavily influenced families people whose lives lost , whose lives remain question commercial interest things seem compelling moment influenced families feel q economic stimulus package , kind reality check scaling back plans , legislative plans coming year , including crime bill , health care initiative things \? plans \? also , underestimate power senator bob dole \? president , underestimated extent thought fairly self evident case , particularly stayed spending caps approved congress , including republicans congress last year already passed budget resolution called 500 billion deficit reduction voted repeatedly supplemental appropriations help foreign governments , thought least four would vote break , underestimated adequate strategy dealing also thought made good faith effort negotiate compromise , would instead , every time offered something reduced offer previously talking majority leader strange set events think happened significant part plan , major part , acquired political connotation got proportion merits , lot republicans saying privately , mr president , 'd like , ca n't 're 're divided think need reality check said , want know let go back said want know folks friends senate republicans democrats could done differently make come differently real losers president administration real losers hundreds thousands people wo n't jobs could put another 700 , 000 kids work summer mean , could done lot good things money think , sad became political underlying rationale n't think holds lot water deficit spending wo n't wash q president mean , know , example mentioned crime bill think would real mistake pass crime bill mean , crime bill almost point passage last year fighting brady bill surely , surely country last three months , kind mindless violence seen , pass bill requiring people go waiting period buy handgun surely see need police officers street 's another thing really believe move money , jobs package make jobs police officers street 'd laid , would compelling case mean people scared country think need go forward feel strongly need go forward crime bill q mr president , back report second report contained strong criticism navy 's senior leadership general , name senior officers believe senior officers implicated , including admiral kelso one night las vegas , disciplined believe public right know names senior officers \? president know rules law apply , chain command inspector general 's report law must take course answer question might prejudice decisions might later made case n't really think think tell already said disturbed specific allegations inspector general 's report , want appropriate action taken proper procedures chance kick appropriate action taken , advised commander chief careful say prejudice rights anybody action might proceed prejudice case way either pro con ca n't say except say want thing handled appropriate thorough way q mr president , could ask clarification bosnia \? said considering introduction american forces include air forces well ground forces , sir \? president said ground forces q said ground forces could ask , sir , fear using u air strikes might draw united states ground war \? president n't want discuss evaluation options anymore 've told 's never serious discussion country introduction ground forces ongoing conflict q hundreds thousands gays washington weekend march , ever reconsider decision leave town weekend \? ever consider way participating activities \? president q \? president , basically , would n't participate think become president , balance , except unusual circumstances , done importantly , i'm going american society newspaper editors , trip presumably would want make , try focus anew think fundamental issues stake country right expect say something fact lot americans come , asking climate free discrimination asking , basically , able work hard live rules treated like american citizens , 's always position gays , others well thank much 48 p edt
scott basis com \( scott \) subject mow bodycount organization basis int'l , albuquerque nm usa lines 19 article iif netcom com onr netcom com \( owen rowley \) writes course last mow thing media ignored us guess labor pains perhaps ignore us , case come even numbers next time local media n't said much , anything , mow also , called straight friend arlington tell would doorstep weekend , n't know anything march gay sympathetic person notices things like thought strange unaware happening made wonder much coverage getting mainstream america scott head like hole , black soul basis international , albuquerque , nm 'd rather die give control scott basis com nine inch nails
undergrad math uwaterloo ca \( pat \) subject americans sexually repressed \? organization university waterloo lines 26 cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes unless , course , problem homosexuality form mental disorder , caused childhood sexual abuse , number recent works suggest oh , please , enlighten us articles particular quoting \? i'm masters would interest greatly seeing articles know exist \( yet know nothing \) i'm sure could give people phd 's information like , 'll degree time \( sarcasm applicable \) n't bother little girl raped daddy lesbian studies always critical scrutiny validity \( correlation ! causation \) fluffy wonder bunny sex answer , sex question yes answer behind nice day go fuck ralph night lying bed , looking stars , wondered , fuck roof \? ! \? descartes waterloo edu hi ! signature virus copy signature join fun !
netcom com \( roger \) subject clayton asshole \( already know \) organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 35 's hypothetical question clayton said something like really stupid \( please n't offended , i'm racist merely using example clayton 's logic \) said read report lot blacks inner cities dropped school , bet would n't support yet claim homosexuals dishonest , evil , lying child molesters without personally single homosexual friend acquaintance 'll sit support god created place bigots 's called hell clayton going burn long time pray find heart christian values learn love gay brothers sisters , anyone much hatred soul never righteous difference supporting opinions supporting right speak want know cannot educate elevate ones understanding calling names clayton opinion mind valid opinion anyone else net walk black person talk blacks inner city began conversation th would lose attention black person time spoke second word name calling remarks turn audience trying address clayton guilty distracted attention away message bits pieces conversation n't understand people want repeat mistakes ! netcom com com hanging tips finger edge internet
nelson p apollo hp com \( peter nelson \) subject waco distribution usa nntp posting host c ch apollo hp com organization hewlett packard corporation , chelmsford , lines 64 article cbnews cb att com ddn cbnews cb att com \( david \) writes thirdly , seems incredibly hypocritical place blame given benefit hindsight something made decisions benefit give courtesy acknowledging best could data , difficult situation proof best could \? unless strong evidence children immediate danger best could done show restraint us predict outcome , least suggested strong possibility , one , said event assault building children ones danger either assault jonestown \( phrase week seige started \) style suicide pointed , repeatedly objections people net disagreed , adult may freely choose suicide right impose choice children , n't expect fbi pay attention say , expect figure take advice experts cult specialist inter viewed yesterday 's boston globe said repeatedly fbi pointed confrontational tactics played perfectly koresh 's mad view world increased chance tragic outcome responses gone far suggest actions done without regard lives people compound give break give us break ! pumping teargas 45 minutes compound filled children \? ! ! n't seem show much regard lives safety teargas oxymoron children tiny respiratory passages easily blocked secretions induced teargas moreover teargas easily cause fatalities anyone subject , asthma , heart disease madman holding gun hostage , someone provokes madman attacking bears nearly much death hostage madman kinds situations handled surrounding place tanks heavily armed personnel blaring rock music loud speakers hours approach idiotic part solution problem solution greatly reduce authority authorities feds showed , many times past , gang trigger happy , , cause trouble prevent confrontational approach reinforced every single message koresh giving followers , virtually guarantee ing whatever crazy solution koresh proposed would followed willingly pointed , compuserve , press , every place except justice department seems n h philosophy peter
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject clinton remarks president waco w q 4 20 93 organization university toronto chemistry department lines 37 article life ai mit edu clinton hq campaign92 org \( white house \) writes white house office press secretary immediate release april 20 , 1993 remarks president question answer session press 1 36 p edt president february 28th , four federal agents killed line duty trying enforce law branch davidian compound , illegally stockpiled weaponry ammunition , placed innocent children risk batf operation failed meet objective , 51 day standoff ensued federal bureau investigation made every reasonable effort bring perilous situation end without bloodshed loss life bureau 's efforts ultimately individual dealing , david koresh , dangerous , irrational , probably insane stacy koon lawrence powell defense ! decisions janet reno bill clinton affair essentially moral equivalents stacy koon 's reno clinton advantage investigate gerald
bnr ca \( rick \) subject abolish selective service nntp posting host organization bell northern research , richardson , tx lines 56 article visser convex convex com visser convex com \( lance visser \) writes dave borden \( borden head cfa harvard edu \) wrote selective service registration abolished start , draft immoral whether agree , n't one , military experts agree quality armed forces superior volunteer army draftees finally , government us many lists many computers \( irs , social security admistration motor vehicle registries name \) find us needs maintaining yet another list people utter waste money time let 's axe whole department , reduce deficit little bit gridlock talk another relic past selective service system creates jobs investment future america whats wrong \? want \? want jobs created productive supply demand economy \? answer former round people pay build desert answer latter fail see another bureaucracy produces anything need jobs point recovery , economy generated 10 billion jobs since , government step help shutting selective service would cost good jobs ca n't really need involve selective service closely directed manner need selective service involved environmental protection , high speed rail , commuter aircraft , civil rights , national service health care every dollar put selective service get us 10 less spending future really believe think selective service long past due creation cabinet position beyond hope , get back america 's side start part change bill needs support economic stimulus health care reform need devote energies fighting gridlock supporting change get team , evil banished washington time complaint past neccessary remember , bill clinton cares may someday even town meeting city appropriate sort person , phrase questions properly show proper respect awe , might chance ask mr , president question person oh , get sarcastic , right \?
nelson p apollo hp com \( peter nelson \) subject new study gay percentage nntp posting host c ch apollo hp com organization hewlett packard corporation , chelmsford , lines 44 article bu edu kane buast7 bu edu \( hot young star \) writes article 15427 optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes homosexuals lie 10 number hide disproportionate involvement homosexuals child molestation also lie 10 keep politicians scared 1 n't shown disproportionate involvement 2 janus report , came recently , gives 9 percentage exclusively predominantly gay men janus report bookstore recently looking clue methodology unclear , far could tell relied professional associates profession provide subjects , interviews , numbers , would hardly represent average cross section posted usenet time asking data methodology answer came none \( must mind even asking factual information usenet ! \) 3 one presumably going say 're gay 're doubt going hide homosexuality surveys thus 1 2 lower limit problem people lot confidence anonymity study counted speak freely stuff like agree someone 's going lie direction gay person claiming straight rather way around still say weighing evidence gives likely percentage 5 7 n't see 's evidence figure seems totally arbitrary peter
adobe com \( michael wang \) subject waco panama organization adobe systems inc , mountain view , california , usa lines 32 article 1993apr21 922 cs okstate edu kennejs cs okstate edu \( kennedy james scot \) writes completely agree illegal invasion panama something mr bush never answer remember , lot civilians get killed , american soldiers died arresting petty dictator 's icing cake knowledge flow drugs panama n't slowed removal noriega , good remove power \? cigarette cops fbi killing branch davidians waco equally reprehensible btw , 've cross posted article p want hear knowledgable people whether arrest noriega affected drug trade way arrest noriega major adverse effect drug trade going panama money continues panama 's main industry fact , bigger noriega arrested 1 panama 's current administration also ties cocaine 2 large amounts cocaine still flow panama regular basis 3 oh well sources \( book drugs america vincent \) 1 irs criminal investigations divison 2 new york times 3 u state department michael wang mv us adobe com
steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) subject eight myths national health insurance \( pt ii \) summary 's source canada bashing \? nntp posting host thor isc br com organization aging , inc lines 35 article acsu buffalo edu v140pxgt ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( daniel b case \) writes article 1993apr22 news columbia edu , gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) writes 've come learn suspect anything american press system much true , 'd take us idiots given insurance installed period liberal tory governments federally provincially , socialists still , would 've pressed real socialized medicine fix things think , using u metric make comparison keeping confirming something right true , remember canadian bashing exists american proponents system make look like walks water even n't go far sorry , 'd differ canadian bashing wrt health insurance system largely little evidence prompting kept debate net months , criticism canadian system misquoted misinterpreted even anti canadian propaganda put american insurance industry ama cases , mr case , critiques well reasoned worthy response others misinformed , illogical , plain dumb n't think said american proponents canadian system , much less canadian proponents jsh steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing data , sure cut uucp ! uunet ! isc br ! thor ! steveh bulls r hofferbert bell 509 838 8826
clinton hq campaign92 org \( white house \) subject clinton press briefing george stephanopoulos 4 20 93 organization mit artificial intelligence lab lines 874 nntp posting host life ai mit edu white house office press secretary immediate release april 20 , 1993 press briefing george stephanopoulos briefing room 12 36 p edt mr stephanopoulos know , president going come 1 15 p indulgence , think 'd like president award national teacher 's award first teacher leave , whatever , 'll make statement waco take couple questions hold going live 's done , probably work lot better q 'll give us time 's problem q 've got two minute warning problem mr stephanopoulos yes , problem 's 1 15 p q teacher would walk mr stephanopoulos think 's i'm trying work think 's best way handle q ask series questions way president handled yesterday \? mr stephanopoulos sure q , instance , talk justice department would come discuss happened waco whether attorney general president \? mr stephanopoulos n't take step even farther back look whole sequence events contact justice department white house know 've said , president spoke attorney general sunday , sunday afternoon good discussion , 15 minutes attorney general informed president wanted raised objections obviously , implicit authority president go forward raised objections went forward discussion general nature incident , yesterday morning around 11 00 , president spoke attorney general brief discussion happening waco know , fire broke compound think confusion think confusing minds fire , actual day spoke number contacts number different levels white house yesterday afternoon justice department white house informing us decisions , would like fbi briefing waco attorney general press conference president issued statement frankly , yesterday afternoon , know , fair amount confusion exactly happening ground waco , think wanted careful president say anything much better sense actually happening ground fairly clear happening ground waco , president issued statement spoke attorney general yesterday evening q hour \? mr stephanopoulos quite late believe returned holocaust museum took tour holocaust museum last night q went dinner mr stephanopoulos believe briefly yes , went dinner spoke attorney general last night n't know exact time think relatively late said , think dee dee reported , wanted tell thought handled difficult situation well , good job tough situation , try get sleep , , spoke morning follow waco , 're going afternoon know , president announcement make 1 15 q ever talk webb hubbell yesterday , last night , morning \? mr stephanopoulos knowledge , q webb hubbell point man white house \? mr stephanopoulos webb hubbell general white house liaison several people talked webb attorney general running operation q tell sleep well , done good job \? tell get sleep \? mr stephanopoulos think sleep well done good job n't know exact words think sounds right q mean , sleep well implications conscience whether feel badly mr stephanopoulos well , mean , think everybody feels badly situation q understand , whether issue blame brought mr stephanopoulos think 's spirit , nothing spirit offered entire administration certainly attorney general face difficult decision , difficult situation yesterday thought handled well , best could q well , think mishandled \? mr stephanopoulos speaking warm words friend q think situation mishandled \? mr stephanopoulos president q retrospect \? mr stephanopoulos president stands decisions law enforcement agencies , decisions attorney general accepts full responsibility time , think want look future figure exactly happened , full review , make sure make sure n't happen kind thing n't happen , least know handle q much know going go ahead \? know made case explained outlined case action say sunday precisely action \? mr stephanopoulos n't think specific operational detail going happen think general discussion action , action think , noted , asked general questions trying get sense things considered n't minute minute detail operation q well , , going , 're going use tear gas \? mean , \? mr stephanopoulos believe want go take action would increase pressure compound , hopefully spur towards sort movement q george , ever conscious political decision made , even discussion president mr stephanopoulos mean , close contact justice department president accepts responsibility time mean , wanted , clear happened factual could decisions made responsibility ground make recommendations attorney general operational control president obviously accepts responsibility , stands attorney general q george , report television today n't know one members cult said going courthouse fbi started fire also picture yesterday tv smashing building fire broke question , white house absolutely certain fire mr stephanopoulos evidence fire started david koresh inside compound every bit evidence q president ask attorney general , particular date , ask possible consequences either death injury \? mr stephanopoulos n't know specific questions general questions decision going made q general questions ask generally , \? mr stephanopoulos think asked , considered consequences considered recommendations \? n't know asked question , \? n't know asked specific question q tell terms stuff 's come since information provided listening device koresh getting increasingly violent \? mr stephanopoulos , i'm certain much specific detail got know generally said recommendation 's prepared make , mean , decision 's prepared make 's based recommendations receiving field intensive questioning involved , know precisely detailed beyond q president 's understanding yesterday \? one people went compound couple weeks ago came weekend speculation may told law enforcement people something precipitated action yesterday \? mr stephanopoulos first 've heard think go fbi attorney general said indications inside compound danger clear negotiations broken judgment experts involved negotiations situation going get better also concern agents working long beyond time teams normally work attorney general said , concern fact replacements place could stand , concern safety factors came play also considered advice number psychologists experts david koresh compound would go back attorney general said make best judgment , given information time obviously , regret loss life 's terribly unfortunate situation wish could turned differently , n't take away judgments made time q george , president know going use tear gas \? assault compound \? mr stephanopoulos n't know n't believe given lot detail exactly operation would go n't know q along point , george , say whether plan presented president attorney general way end standoff one way yesterday \? mr stephanopoulos think presented way increase pressure compound , hoped , way move bring n't presented tomorrow day , q president satisfied , , relevant information necessary make decision , b , janet reno relevant information necessary make decision \? mr stephanopoulos oh , think 's satisfied acting best advice best information , 's second guessing way whatsoever q george , 12 hour gap conversations president attorney general \? words , spoke 11 00 n't speak clinton got back dinner mr stephanopoulos think 's likely , yes q call \? time call \? gap called \? mean , dinner called mr stephanopoulos , , think called last night could n't swear , believe called last night wanted talk q going \? mr stephanopoulos know , q know situation \? everyone perished except eight nine \? know details \? mr stephanopoulos n't know details fbi reported waco q watching cnn keeping track going \? n't talking attorney general , keeping track going \? mean , due respect cnn , \? mr stephanopoulos also said , several people white house constant contact counterparts justice full complete information q contacts \? mean , mack mclarty , webb hubbell \? president kept informed \? 's mr stephanopoulos believe mack contact webb spoke several people justice department believe bruce lindsey spoke people justice department either bernie vince also contact different times day people justice department fully briefed fully informed q told morning president may spoken chance may spoken webb know 's true \? mr stephanopoulos think 's chance may n't believe , think 's certainly chance may point n't believe think last contact day yesterday directly justice department 11 00 phone call attorney general white house fully informed minute minute basis happening waco happening justice department q george , decided briefing would done attorney general \? mr stephanopoulos attorney general q white house communications staff ever involved decision \? mr stephanopoulos told q ask go nightline macneil lehrer stuff \? part mr stephanopoulos q advice white house night , day \( laughter \) mr stephanopoulos yes , good job q decide president 's reaction situation written statement , traditionally white house 's way president issue , appear personally saying anything \? mr stephanopoulos well , n't intent said , wanted wait information hand president also making statement today president made statement yesterday morning president fully involved q turned less successful operation , statement president paper attorney general already given amounted major facts mr stephanopoulos well , first statement president , statement president , number one q mr stephanopoulos number two well , first number two , attorney general q gave statement early morning thing starting move mr stephanopoulos right gave one yesterday 's giving one today , second point q happens written statement sort communications policy thought process involved \? president wants put written statement \? mr stephanopoulos knowing knew time , thought appropriate president thought appropriate put written statement expressing regret expressing support attorney general 's q appropriate personally something \? mr stephanopoulos well , personally statement 's statement name q george , yesterday briefing n't say president took full responsibility happened mr stephanopoulos certainly q , said mr stephanopoulos 's right , susan q well , think go back transcript , mean , unless miss something mr stephanopoulos 'd love q janet reno said took full responsibility said made decision , fbi mr stephanopoulos president takes responsibility absolutely q took responsibility right mr stephanopoulos check transcript q considering little known going inside compound , even , little known , washington calling mass suicide \? mr stephanopoulos well , think knowing know given actions david koresh , painfully clear control q 's stretching little bit kids concerned , though , n't , george \? mr stephanopoulos think entirely different matter mean , think david koresh must bear responsibility deaths children , absolutely clearly intent creating kind apocalyptic incident , 's q 're still operating completely assumption , right \? mean , evidence , know evidence mass suicide mr stephanopoulos evidence inside compound set fire compound , led deaths inside q n't quite hear might ann 's question , n't quite hear time clinton put statement \? know dee dee said stuff 6 00 p , president put mr stephanopoulos 6 35 p , 6 40 p q right evening news went air \? mr stephanopoulos , right information working q dee dee confirmed morning investigation president going announce going administration run investigation someone outside make sure 's colored would political stake , particularly atf whose actions already mr stephanopoulos think clearly atf justice department bear responsibility investigation 's rule , often investigations like , sort independent involvement well run treasury justice q confident problem getting mr stephanopoulos absolutely q george , president reach anybody else get advice meeting janet reno \? else white house sat meeting \? anyone else justice \? mr stephanopoulos n't believe anybody else time phone call monday , n't meeting q sunday mr stephanopoulos sunday phone call , n't meeting believe might bruce , beyond , think talked attorney general q george , said phone call , said want go take action , said , force think talking \? n't know tear gas , exactly idea approving \? mr stephanopoulos think approving action increase pressure q q n't matter \? mr stephanopoulos , mean q information terms would proceed \? presumably would wanted know , minute minute , general sense mr stephanopoulos think knew recommendation ground recommendation law enforcement agencies n't know q say recommendation mr stephanopoulos action increase pressure n't know exactly told whether going told tank going go left wall punch hole window , whether told generally moving forward way would increase pressure n't know q 's hard imagine asking , though q janet reno presented best advice go forward , would agreed \? mr stephanopoulos ask general questions advice recommendation gave time would repeat based unanimous recommendation law enforcement agencies involved q george , would seem question exactly detail president informed nature operation going come elsewhere take question mr stephanopoulos absolutely yes q get answer come back us \? mr stephanopoulos yes q tell us never meeting strategy session others decided , put written statement president janet reno television broadcasts \? mr stephanopoulos never never q never called justice department said anyone janet reno , 're one needs front explaining \? mr stephanopoulos q happened way spokesman , one ever saw bill sessions mr stephanopoulos made decision attorney general important operational officer charge , person made decision , go take questions tragic incident q guidance white house \? mr stephanopoulos certainly n't object q \( laughter \) , i'm sure n't object , suggest \? plan mr stephanopoulos absolutely q strategy \? mr stephanopoulos q clear \? mr stephanopoulos q notify \? mr stephanopoulos certainly knew q happened great detailed process clearing talking every public information officer every every rock every place government something major could occurred without discussion public information people least justice department \? mr stephanopoulos attorney general made decision attorney general wanted go forward seemed like good decision good decision good job q let ask way , george , hindsight would handle \? mr stephanopoulos think handled well q would n't change thing mr stephanopoulos change \? q way white house handled part start finish mr stephanopoulos well , think 's awful broad question 're certainly going review one reasons investigation look ways future something like see learn incident like see learn handle 're talking specifically issue press conferences , , would n't make change q two questions first , going tv , white house people outside media consultants came idea \? 's reminiscent guys campaign mr stephanopoulos \? q i'm thinking like watching clinton nightline draft story watching clinton mr stephanopoulos 's absolutely comparison yesterday law enforcement incident incident ended tragic deaths many , many people attorney general involved decision attorney general made decision felt responsibility interest public information go take questions press order make sure questions answered , fantastic job q second question , someone knows clinton well , understand 's sort hard believe might asked detailed questions intended \? words , came said , i'm going put pressure 's hard see clinton , 's fairly intelligent , asking q kind \? mr stephanopoulos attorney general said ask questions , ask general questions n't minute minute account conversation q long conversation \? mr stephanopoulos think 15 minutes q telephone conversation \? mr stephanopoulos yes q george , federal cost standoff ever consideration terms stepping pressure mr stephanopoulos n't believe , q george , keep saying president takes full responsibility , refer decision president accept fact commander chief , ultimately decision \? mr stephanopoulos n't know commander chief law enforcement action , military action clearly takes responsibility decisions law enforcement agencies involved taken government mean , think 's ambiguity q accepting decision well , saying 's decision \? 's difference mr stephanopoulos matter fact , decision object decision clearly takes full responsibility q george , briefing gone little 15 minutes , see lot things exchanged exactly spend 15 minutes talking general \? 's long period time phone conversation mr stephanopoulos awful long phone conversation important phone conversation think brit asked take question , 've said would q one things reno said last night buck stops think direct quotation president agree case \? mr stephanopoulos president says accepts full responsibility think attorney general saying made decision , 's going accept responsibility comes 's shrinking , neither president q point conversation last night president attorney general morning , ever offer resignation \? mr stephanopoulos knowledge q even fire yesterday , republicans capitol hill calling investigation white house concerned timing requests trying make political hay situation \? mr stephanopoulos n't want cast questions motives requesting investigation want investigation , 'll full complete investigation q forum answer brit 's question \? put written statement \? wires \? answer question 've taken \? mr stephanopoulos i'm sure q george , remind us president yesterday afternoon , , meetings involved \? mr stephanopoulos 'll try remember series meetings different members staff afternoon certainly monitoring situation waco getting periodic reports well see cnn well believe saw fair amount fbi press briefing well q reports would come mack mclarty , would think \? mr stephanopoulos mack talked , bruce talked , talked q george , follow helen 's question , conversation morning discuss statement last night response question whether would resign \? say , n't know felt need say \? i'm reassure n't \? come \? mr stephanopoulos n't know even came specifically know bulk conversation discussing go form investigation q n't talk kind remarkable comment last night mr stephanopoulos well , believe asked question q response , president wants , mr stephanopoulos would , think , standard response cabinet members would give mean , 's conditional statement q need talk whether personally whether president wanted mr stephanopoulos n't know talked mean , learned conversation largely investigation n't come ask question talked q take brit package \? mr stephanopoulos certainly \( laughter \) q george , record , president want resign \? know dee dee answered morning mr stephanopoulos absolutely supports janet reno 's good attorney general 's done good job handled difficult situation extremely well q george , president feel janet reno let unanimous professional advice law enforcement experts ground \? mr stephanopoulos president second guessing decision recommendations way say n't regret loss life everybody loss life situation best judgments made difficult situation based best information q george , 15 minute conversation one sunday , correct \? mr stephanopoulos yes q long one 11 00 yesterday morning \? mr stephanopoulos n't know 'll take question , q outside experts consulting , experts within atf fbi \? mr stephanopoulos 'd ask i'm sure know several experts q also , n't replacements people \? unit small \? mr stephanopoulos , think small highly specialized unit think 's one kinds things investigation examine q george , n't factor involving fbi director \? normally , president , wants get information , n't asks attorney general know chain command presidents talk fbi directors case , throughout entire siege , felt could pick phone talk bill sessions , waco , get expertise \? mr stephanopoulos think talked fbi director well beginning situation first broke waco time , attorney general bears ultimate responsibility getting fully briefed attorney general q n't think ambiguous situation director sessions impact way president briefed way evolved \? mr stephanopoulos mean , 's perfectly appropriate briefed attorney general attorney general authority fbi director , 's following chain command press thank end 1 03 p edt 60 04 20
rja mahogany126 cray com \( russ anderson \) subject waco burnout originator rja mahogany126 lines 23 nntp posting host mahogany126 organization 1991 world champion minnesota twins ! distribution usa article rigel tamu edu , mst4298 rigel tamu edu \( mitchell todd \) writes article visser convex convex com , visser convex com \( lance visser \) writes ca n't wait investigation considering everyone dead place burnt ground , guess honest citizens take word atf much threat people look history koresh captured mount carmel complex ago gun battle rival bd sect , leaving one person dead n't exactly peace loving bunch koresh followers tried found innocent charges following shootout unaware leave fact \? russ anderson disclaimer statements reflect upon employer anyone else \( c \) 1993 ex twins' jack morris , 10 innings pitched , 0 runs \( world series mvp ! \)
harelb math cornell edu subject f cus health u compares nf id n poly math cor 000 1957 nf math cornell edu ! harelb apr 23 14 01 00 1993 lines 50 harelb math cornell edu \( misc activism progressive co moderator \) subject f cus health u compares paid maternity leave f cus health u compares paid maternity leave duration nationally provided paid maternity leave weeks , 1988 country weeks country weeks united kingdom 40 germany 14 finland 38 ireland 14 denmark 28 japan 14 france 16 28 spain 14 italy 22 netherlands 12 norway 20 sweden 12 canada 17 18 switzerland 8 12 austria 16 united states 0 belgium 14 source international labor organization , work family child care challenge , conditions work digest , vol 7 , february 1988 page 11 're number one , america stands falls new world order andrew l shapiro new york , may 1992 , vintage books , division random house 10 paperback isbn 0 679 2 transcribed well sf ca us \( joe \) becoming land private greed public squalor book indispensable road map wreckage facts reveals may depress ideally 'll fire help rebuild nation '' robert b reich , author work nations
clinton hq campaign92 org \( white house \) subject clinton remarks president teacher year award organization mit artificial intelligence lab lines 98 nntp posting host life ai mit edu white house office press secretary immediate release april 20 , 1993 remarks president presentation teacher year award rose garden 1 25 p edt president good afternoon please seated want say , first , delighted secretary riley senator graham three us served governors together 1980s worked constantly strategies improve schools , led often difficult long efforts upgrade standards american education improve quality instruction children receiving two governors admired period two stand stage teacher year think would join saying , testimony heard bills passed funds raised allocated , comes happens teacher students classroom 's today 's ceremony honoring national teacher year important tracey leon bailey one recognition across country highly advanced innovative science programs 's developed introduced florida 's cutting edge programs molecular biology dna subjects usually taught college , might add , probably understood nation 's capital \( laughter \) within three years hired satellite high school , mr bailey 's institution one strongest science programs entire state florida , numerous national international awards advanced programs n't favored tracey bailey inspired kinds students , including previously known low achieving risk reach excellence attain students need country needs today , know good future high wages rich opportunities rests foundation quality education lifetime basics n't enough anymore kids need competence math science advanced problem solving 's tracey bailey 's accomplishments important pleased proud participate recognizing honoring accomplishments tracey , represent best united states i'm glad recognize today formally present apple award teacher year 1993 \( applause \) mr bailey thank , mr president indeed great honor tremendous responsibility represent nation 's 2 5 million teachers appreciate support shown education , 're looking forward working help redesign improve nation 's schools know quality children 's education directly impact future economic social landscape years come thank much continued support commitment children 's education thank \( applause \) president closing , would like also welcome education leaders florida , representing national education groups also come 'd like recognize tracey 's congressman , representative jim back , great advocate education 'd like remind ultimate purpose national teacher year award find way rest us express appreciation people across country give lives children , teachers country get every day best try advance cause learning children america , many ways , important public servants thank much \( applause \) 29 p edt
garrod dynamo ecn purdue edu \( david garrod \) subject waco burning organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 17 interesting , sometimes , listen u news seen eyes another country b b c world news service , short wave , originating london , reports survivor waco massacre states tank , making hole wall building , knocked kerosene lamp fire started attempts made people inside put fire , spread quickly anyone u heard anything similar u government spin doctors censoring information \? b b c news also reporting 20 died british citizens
an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) subject waco organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 18 reply an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu previous article , ddn cbnews cb att com \( david \) says give break give break , chum telling clinton reno know batf actions illegal , violation warrant \? part solution problem problem clinton part
an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) subject waco burning organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 17 reply an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu previous article , garrod dynamo ecn purdue edu \( david garrod \) says reports survivor waco massacre states tank , making hole wall building , knocked kerosene lamp fire started attempts made people inside put fire , spread quickly pretty much koresh 's lawyers told remaining survivors larry king live addition , parts unsealed warrant mentioned surely sounds batf violation day one
mst4298 rigel tamu edu \( mitchell todd \) subject waco burning organization grinchco lines 34 distribution world nntp posting host rigel tamu edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 garrod dynamo ecn purdue edu \( david garrod \) writes interesting , sometimes , listen u news seen eyes another country b b c world news service , short wave , originating london , reports survivor waco massacre states tank , making hole wall building , knocked kerosene lamp fire started attempts made people inside put fire , spread quickly anyone u heard anything similar u government spin doctors censoring information \? cbs yesterday explanation reasonable enough , fire accidental , n't people get \? b b c news also reporting 20 died british citizens 's true think several group well mitchell todd mst4298 zeus ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' tamu edu ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' '
pyotr halcyon com \( peter hampe \) subject phill says koresh hitler , welcome police state usa organization northwest nexus inc lines 90 nntp posting host nwfocus wa com hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) writes murderes four police officers justice perhaps could hear sure fire method keep bottled talk death surrender without giving justification looney tune religious stunt phil , 've reading postings months i'm convinced back anything , matter damaging may anyone else 's rights think hurt people n't like 's people attitude set preconditions holocaust , process place country , even , pitiful remains constitution slowing progress n't libertarian issue , others may argue line , strictly constitutional view democratic gov't , fbi batf wrong , wrong , wrong , even reasons trying arrest koresh 100 right anything leads deaths 17 children , nothing else touches stoney heart , wrong matter pushed button god 's sake , man , get morality back person murdered 17 children koresh kept brought deaths deliberately may consider complete bastard nice chap thats quite true n't pretend nice amateurs try want talk politics talking hard decisions whether lives troops risked attempting rescue children anyone held office president united states since fdr held threat usa allies threatened usa would risk nuclear holocaust order protect freedom beleive , sort threat nice chaps make gun nutters section us version chance \? cases society protected madmen koresh hitler consideration 17 children question tactics used would matter anything academic significance govt prevent people commiting mass suicide latest reports cult members shot attempting leave compound koresh fire proven would entail final nail coffin want promote koresh sort role model hero need hardly add koresh created holocaust case deliberate arson ranch let see got right group religious schismatics erect compound least fifty years peaceful co existance outside community \( shoot outs \) makes dangerous prior history would seem indicate dangerous last knew national branch davidian party blaming debacle foreign three two beer , calling rounding meat , slaughter houses want tough political choices letting odd balls odd balls \? \( know , requires tolerance go government know people useful skills \) death children everybody getting real upset 40 plus people \? suppose consider children property state family \( states way around children parental property \) consider corrupt government demands send children tender care suppose obey state turn children care sorry womb tomb cradle gotta go , beach calling chus pyotr pyotr halcyon com sometimes pyotr filipivich , sometimes owl april 19 , 1993 realize makes twice two months government perfect plan went \?
clinton hq campaign92 org \( white house \) subject clinton fact sheet russian statement 4 23 93 organization mit artificial intelligence lab lines 167 nntp posting host life ai mit edu white house office press secretary immediate release april 23 , 1993 background information advancing u relations russia new independent states april 23 , 1993 vancouver summit , president clinton president yeltsin agreed pursue number measures designed implement economic strategic partnership u russia since , president clinton directed number steps taken move process forward administration announcing number steps today order underscore deep commitment new closer partnership russia based government 's commitment reform executive review cold war laws president clinton president yeltsin discussed reviewing updating u laws regulations reflect end cold war congress already acted revise many laws reflect fact communist soviet union replaced democratic russia independent states however , many laws regulations remain contain language restrictions fail reflect end cold war unnecessarily undermine relations russia new independent states president today ordered executive review laws regulations , appropriate consistent u security national interests , provisions revised removed asked ambassador large strobe coordinate review basis president indicated welcome congressional efforts help review proceed quickly possible review weigh considerations pertain revision provisions , initiation review may help remedy circumstances justified provisions past example , russians eager status changed jackson vanik legislation , president yeltsin personally assured president clinton vancouver would look individual cases involving continuing restrictions russia addressing issues , review help strengthen bonds trust partnership u russia , u new independent states review cocom also time consider america 's allies future another cold war institution coordinating committee multilateral export controls \( cocom \) united states begun thorough review export controls post cold war world , russia longer viewed potential adversary , potential ally proliferation sensitive technology steps improve security relationship president also taken steps move ahead range efforts discussed vancouver strengthen u security improve security relationship russians states accelerated nuclear weapons vancouver , two presidents discussed accelerating process nuclear strategic systems scheduled elimination start treaty president clinton directed department defense complete process well advance seven year reduction period outlined start addition , united states , together russia relevant states former soviet union , exploring programs nunn lugar help accelerate process multilateral test ban two presidents agreed vancouver negotiations multilateral nuclear test ban commence early date , two governments would consult accordingly united states looks forward beginning consultations russia , allies , states , specific issues related negotiation united states expects start process within next two months two presidents also began dialogue issue nuclear targeting vancouver united states russia move new relationship strategic partnership , need many assumptions means employed past safeguard u security nuclear adversary administration beginning comprehensive review measures could enhance strategic stability , including recent proposals nuclear missiles measures create new security relationship response incident involving collision us russian submarines last month , secretary aspin ready discuss ways avoid incidents future russian defense minister visit united states late may secretary aspin also prepared move forward defense minister may develop combined training program two military forces prepare joint exercises peacekeeping , authorized un security council united states looks forward training exercises include peacekeeping contributors , order improve inter , readiness , planning multilateral peacekeeping operations us russia working together may meeting un security council discuss proposals enhancing un 's peacekeeping capability move consideration secretary general 's agenda peace discussion implementation phase u also working russians focus specifically improvements financing management un operations purpose initiatives cooperate peacekeeping participation un csce sponsored actions multilateral bilateral partnership reform finally , administration continues move ahead range initiatives aimed striking partnership economic political reformers throughout russia states administration continuing work g 7 partners assemble package multilateral assistance secretaries bentsen christopher recently negotiated tokyo administration continuing consultation congress efforts u take assist process reform russia states administration believes steps increase american security improving relationship u russia , u new independent states 30
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject limiting govt \( employment \( concentrate \) organization stratus computer , inc lines 36 distribution world nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com \( misc legal trimmed \) article encore com , rcollins ns encore com \( roger collins \) writes let explain possible means libertarian style government one last time dominate philosophy society held ok kill neighbor sport , government system \( except strong tyranny minority \) could keep people killing dominate philosophy society holds ok people steal coerce long 's done vote government machine libertarians realize legal stealing coercion society society non murderers would vote right murder , society non would vote ability coerce libertarianism became dominate philosophy , people would good job restraining government \( extent libertarianism dominate \) means 1 educating people become libertarian well , 's obvious conclusion , given train logic corollary must waste time party run candidates educational program shown results followups p l cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject waco gov't fault \( libertarian party cia fbi atf \) organization stratus computer , inc lines 52 distribution world nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article dscomsa desy de , hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) writes 1 \) raided american 's property rumors koresh 's intentions converted , yet still 2nd amendment protected , firearms \( judge approved warrant justifies nothing \) democracy rule law search warrant justifies search search procedure must also follow rule law us constitution justify murder attempting mount search illegally held weapons may , necessary , search executed illegal violent fashion govt right use lethal force certain cases attempts capture dangerous criminals armed threatening lives others one criminals threatening lives one fired first , according number accounts case used sub lethal force wrong firing gun someone lethal force , even one hit course , hit kill people children held hostage adults wanted variously murder conspiracy murder silly warrants existence , phill 4 \) took hundreds gov't agents tax funded cellular phones ten minutes dial 9 1 1 fire department called fire dept role play situation might rescued might well shoot calling fire dept meant waco deprived resource might needed elsewhere situation could used arisen thanks , phill , another example great socialist sensitivity obey government die cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
mst4298 rigel tamu edu \( mitchell todd \) subject waco burnout organization grinchco lines 34 distribution usa nntp posting host rigel tamu edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 rja mahogany126 cray com \( russ anderson \) writes article rigel tamu edu , mst4298 rigel tamu edu \( mitchell todd \) writes article visser convex convex com , visser convex com \( lance visser \) writes ca n't wait investigation considering everyone dead place burnt ground , guess honest citizens take word atf much threat people look history koresh captured mount carmel complex ago gun battle rival bd sect , leaving one person dead n't exactly peace loving bunch koresh followers tried found innocent charges following shootout unaware leave fact \? fact koresh followers involved gun battle control mt carmel complex dispute remember trial , could n't reasonably establish fired first , big reason behind mitchell todd mst4298 zeus ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' tamu edu ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' '
demon desire wright edu \( boomer \) subject talking soldiers , part ii summary hmmmm , seem remember us troops college organization acme products lines 18 article csulb edu , beach csulb edu \( jeff \) writes janet , advice go seals delta force green berets next time talk nicely generals might illegal without specific presidential declaration even change law general \( sic \) , u military troops permitted used domestic policing operations mean besides national guard \? outside military reservations \? besides national \? brett 's nothing passionate vested interest disguised intellectual conviction sean o'casey white plague frank herbert
v2110a vm temple edu \( richard hoenes \) subject waco organization temple university lines 7 nntp posting host vm temple edu x newsreader nnr vm 1 3 2 saying government responsible death compound also say isrealis responsible death athletes olympics \? hey , palestinians dividians could given peacefully \( , monkey could fly wayne \) richard
cleveland freenet edu \( richard \) subject waco burnout organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 19 reply cleveland freenet edu \( richard \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu n't seem like responsible assault concerned welfare children inside seems like interested flexing muscle media reasoning \? ask one question suppose scenario slightly different chelsea clinton terrorists , holed compound 51 days think clinton , reno , fbi , atf would eager use show force \? said richard cleveland freenet edu well , judging attire , 's sort free thinking anarchist charles montgomery burns !
asper calvin uucp \( alan e asper \) subject janet reno killed waco children organization usr lib news organization lines 10 distribution na nntp posting host calvin sbc com article nap lll winken llnl gov ed wente llnl gov \( ed suranyi \) writes , , ridiculous way considered played exceedingly minor role person kills ultimately responsible actions finally , someone seems making sense thread alan
goykhman apollo hp com \( red herring \) subject janet reno killed waco children nntp posting host dzoo ch apollo hp com organization hewlett packard company , chelmsford , lines 35 article fern camelot fern camelot bradley edu \( jill \) writes 1993apr20 153450 27407 ncsu edu dsh eceyv ncsu edu \( doug holtsinger \) writes janet reno killed waco children responsible deaths resign immediately understood david koresh madman would anything children became provoked warning signs ignored provoked koresh killing children provoked koresh \? excuse , david koresh killed inhabitants compound , gov't official people controlled koresh killed long time ago refused release children hostages call comparison first hear koresh refused release someone fact , lot people , including children , came stand know koresh killed followers \? fbi said plans \( place bugged \) , koresh 's attorney said thing , survivors claimed fire started goverment agents disclaimer opinions expressed mine , employer 's
hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) subject waco burning lines 32 reply hallam zeus02 desy de organization desydeutsches elektronen synchrotron , experiment zeus bei hera article nwfocus wa com , turmoil halcyon com \( tim crowley \) writes goykhman apollo hp com \( red herring \) writes article v2110a vm temple edu v2110a vm temple edu \( richard hoenes \) writes yes 've heard survivors saying 've also seen videotape shows fire started two three different places n't near tank seen tape cnn network see \? saw film cnn happend clear tape fire started one location right tank attacking , pulled back , true cnn pictures show two sites clearly third barely distinguished tape note two towers either end building , big one little one appears merely long shot big tower tank front fact little tower tell beacuse flag foreground switches sides right picture left third site visible flames clearly come point obscured small tower need tape good slow motion video see phill hallam baker
sdf lonestar org \( tom hyatt \) subject waco survivors 1715 19 april summary lessons clarifications weapons organization sdf public access unix , dallas tx 214 436 lines 52 article 1993apr20 e2big mko dec com busta enet dec com writes article c5segz mwr dscomsa desy de , hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) writes article apm hpopdlau pwd hp com , apm hpopdlau pwd hp com \( andrew merritt \) writes path dscomsa ! dxcern ! mcsun ! uknet ! pipex ! uunet ! think com ! sdd hp com ! hpscit sc hp com ! apm apm hpopdlau pwd hp com \( andrew merritt \) article 1993apr19 1 vms ocom okstate edu chorley vms ocom okstate edu writes unrelated text deleted exactly trying say \? fire engines within mile compound \? gun loonies firing vehicles 50mm range 3000 meters crap , phil 50mm \? wrong give clue big 50mm , f 16 fighter aircraft guns used shoot aircraft 50mm gun would somewhere realm might 50 calibre definitely 50mm think phil needs get ruler see exactly big 50mm rounds roughly 2 diameter type stuff used anti aircraft 50 calibre much smaller , effective range \( \) sounds right maybe got two confused fbi 's reasoning sound , note ph b factually wrong tom h paul r busta busta enet dec com salem , n h 603 894 make peaceful revolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable tom hyatt i'm saints fan , 've sdf lonestar org suffered quite enough , thank ! arlington , tx help ! i'm repressed ! python
visser convex com \( lance visser \) subject waco investigation paranoia nntp posting host mikey convex com organization convex computer corporation , richardson , tx , usa x disclaimer message written user convex computer corp opinions expressed user necessarily convex lines 31 v2110a vm temple edu v2110a vm temple edu \( richard hoenes \) writes people please stop 'i think know batf fbi completely responsible 'll cover investigation show koresch responsible' bs investigation size feds , state , civilians involved investigation would impossible cover place burned ground fbi company whole area already arrested reporters site taking pictures going get terms story fbi , atf texas rangers decide release republicans like arlen spector calling investigations , n't going handled kid gloves cops dropped bomb move managed burn entire neighborhood many people said thing dead men rubble tell tales police dont want tell judge real political mood fact congressperson pat 100 supporter fbi 's actions television week saying cost operation waco valid reason storming gassing compound
cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) subject government lying organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 23 yesterday , fbi saying least three bodies gunshot wounds , indicating shot trying escape fire today 's paper quotes medical examiner saying evidence gunshot wounds recovered bodies beginning siege , reported koresh class iii \( machine gun \) license , today 's paper quotes government saying , , n't license today 's paper reports number bodies found shoulder weapons next , using dying n't sound like sort action would expect suicide government lies , tries cover incompetence negligence believe fbi 's claims anything else , see lying \? system government beyond reform clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent ,
cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) subject new study gay percentage organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 38 article 1993apr22 galileo cc rochester edu , as010b uhura cc rochester edu \( tree schnopia \) writes optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes article 852 gdc com , piatt gdc com \( gary piatt \) writes ahh , 's good goose necessarily 's good n't want homosexuals impose moral codes \( diabolical ideas equal rights \) , yet willing impose moral codes detect double standard \? garison mean \? adults want get together sodomy private , 's business 's precisely 's problem queer population , \? difference us private love bi andrew simchik schnopia ! private , wo n't problem reason homosexual activists hot antidiscrimination laws want 1 able wear lovely evening work , people get disgusted 2 able wear nambla shirt worry getting fired 3 able access young boys , start making next generation homosexuals right privacy makes sodomy laws unconstitutional \( position agree \) , keep private , wo n't problem clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent ,
walsh optilink com \( mark walsh \) subject freedom association organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 92 article pdb059 kilimanjaro jpl nasa gov , pdb059 ipl jpl nasa gov \( paul bartholomew \) article netcom com , phil netcom com \( phil ronzone \) wrote well put together post disagree several key points , post excellent one engage discourse agree wholeheartedly paul , handled well , think could write ballot materials thank 'd hoped avoid characterized much debate issue i'm also going prolong debate wanted respond couple points make , last posting , n't stop ! right equal opportunity \( lets call reo \) involves coercion cases \( definition \) one question position reo \? lesser right foa \? good question depends 's answer \? \) seriously , believe depends wether talking governmental employer case , believe absolutely discrimination , direct indirect , period feel way would offend moral sensibilities \( course would \) , government coercive entity cannot escape mind lifetime , whites drinking parks , others , yet taxes support certainly applied whites essence , cannot escape coercive state even randy pay property tax hand , private employers monopoly , businesses run , government , unless elect turn affairs government \? says \? mom pop foa , ibm forced , force correct word , reo \? case mom pop store , foa directly affected , individuals , associate whomever hire case ibm , ask , whose foa protecting \? accept ibm , corporate entity , right foa mom pop store affected hire , n't ibm \? slippery slope santa cruz \( number anti discrimination laws exist \) , guy sued restaurant hiring every imaginable kitchen dangling earlobe , tatoos distracting suddenly , arm waving , magic , landlord foa basis foa landlord disappear \? seems vague terms like contact tenants suffice basis landlord contact tenants landlord n't associate tenants , complain foa violated \? lot interaction \( positive \) tenants , guess n't issue say buy unit another town , managed third party let 's say real aversion christians stuff buy hook line , lunatic try get elected n't want fish symbols hanging window house government intervene \? elie rental applicant tom metzger , forced rent distant unit \? companies fortune 500 , example , privately owned give list owners anonymous , unknown , owners publicly owned sense stock publicly traded shares stock owned generic , ever changing public yes , neat thing unlike mom pop store , buy shares ibm , influence decision making policies n't like anyway , paul , keep good work mark walsh \( walsh optilink \) uucp uunet ! optilink ! walsh amateur radio km6xu wx3k aol bigcookie aol com uscf l10861 , worry \? william gaines , 1922 1992 i'm gonna crush ! andre giant , 1946 1993
cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) subject new study gay percentage organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 39 article rahul net , starowl rahul net \( michael adams \) writes 22 apr 93 10 39 15 gmt , theodore kaldis observed kiwi ucs indiana edu \( amy lynn young \) writes someone tell mr cramer spouts homosexuals , addresses homosexual men , never , post 've read , addressed lesbians \? ca n't really speak mr cramer , say homosexual male entirely different animal lesbian virtually nothing analogous related aberrant behaviors practiced two groups deviants last time checked homosexual men women human think mr kaldis using expression slang sense , though agree appropriate expression use context prefer engage sexual acts people gender nothing inherently wrong trademark behaviour either homosexual men homosexual women , except minds misinformed folk , clueless folk , bigots makes homosexual men homosexual women different animals \? michael adams \( starowl a2i rahul net \) enterprise , alabama 1 homosexual men extremely promiscuous , homosexual women , promiscuous heterosexual women , 's much 2 homosexual men among child molesters \( 30 child molestation done homosexual bisexual men \) , homosexual women n't appear similarly represented clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent ,
cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) subject new study gay percentage organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 26 article murdoch acc virginia edu , lfoard hopper virginia edu \( lawrence c foard \) writes article apr 22 06 39 15 1993 romulus rutgers edu kaldis romulus rutgers edu \( theodore kaldis \) writes article 1993apr21 news cs indiana edu kiwi ucs indiana edu \( amy lynn young \) writes someone tell mr cramer spouts homosexuals , addresses homosexual men , never , post 've read , addressed lesbians \? ca n't really speak mr cramer , say homosexual male entirely different animal lesbian virtually nothing analogous related aberrant behaviors practiced two groups deviants nothing morals , would n't anything wack n't tapes lesbians going think getting closer truth , getting mr foard 's sickness may surprise homosexuals , lots people country spend time watching pornography us real lives , instead sexual compulsions n't expect homosexual understand clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent ,
cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) subject new study gay percentage organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 27 article 1993apr22 cs nott ac uk , eczcaw mips nott ac uk \( c wainwright \) writes article apr 22 06 39 15 1993 romulus rutgers edu , kaldis romulus rutgers edu \( theodore kaldis \) writes article 1993apr21 news cs indiana edu kiwi ucs indiana edu \( amy lynn young \) writes someone tell mr cramer spouts homosexuals , addresses homosexual men , never , post 've read , addressed lesbians \? ca n't really speak mr cramer , say homosexual male entirely different animal lesbian virtually nothing analogous related aberrant behaviors practiced two groups deviants obviously homosexual male xy chromosome pair lesbian xx besides , price eggs \? since mr cramer straight , probably gets thought lesbians , like majority adolescent males views expressed herein theodore kaldis adda wainwright dim atal llanw ! 8o \) hate disappoint , 's case n't get lesbian sex , adolescent , adolescent , believed homosexuals like everyone else 've learned since clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent ,
cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) subject waco clinton press conference , part 1 organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 10 article neat cs toronto edu , cs toronto edu \( pham \) writes anyone notice clinton smiling making jokes press conference \? considering number people killed , seems inappropriate \? , reno , fbi got wanted reminder boss america thugs work government clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent ,
cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) subject new study gay percentage organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 76 article 1993apr22 galileo cc rochester edu , as010b uhura cc rochester edu \( tree schnopia \) writes optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes used think homosexuals ok gotten chance usenet know quite , 've realized misled youth homosexuals vicious , screwed , often really evil people 's load shit really naivete believe bozos soc motss characterize entire populace , need live little try soc bi , example 'll find almost exclusively bunch yet , characteristics soc motss fit quite well evidence available high promiscuity , child sexual abuse history , support child molestation advocacy groups like nambla , , etc well adjusted , friendly , people , case , think 'll find people quite different persona present usenet know , 're wonderful , enlightened human taking role hatemonger effect somehow doubt , though hatemonger someone reminds people homosexuals dying large quantities aids sexual compulsions prevented keeping number sexual partners four digits 've got clues \( \) i'm working pass laws \( b \) 's done name makes responsibility , see suppose kill someone name clayton cramer make murderer \? know , n't express disapproval , certainly would make suspicious , would n't \? morals n't would n't march parade group advocates child molestation n't stop homosexuals would n't march parade group like either 're talking nambla , think 'll find advocate child molestation also think 'll find vast majority homosexuals advocate sex adults children , lower limit age 's right , homosexuals n't believe adult five year old child molestation truck group anyway fooled march number gay parades around country clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent , members sex , right \? live hypocrisy \? bi andrew simchik schnopia ! sure whatever consenting adults want private none government 's business ones want laws telling private quit lumping groups fact homophobia evil , unjustified prejudice , like racism sexism ca n't reject one drewcifer nothing like racism sexism choose homosexual homosexuality homosexuals clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent ,
cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) subject new study gay percentage organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 48 article 1993apr22 galileo cc rochester edu , as010b uhura cc rochester edu \( tree schnopia \) writes optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes sigh 're absolutely right political power whatsoever true california , homosexuals enough power impose morals others moral 're imposing one supposedly embrace already every human 's right treated n't expect hired based sexual orientation someone decides wants gay staff employees , 's business wo n't force hire heterosexuals please n't force hire homosexuals therefore , oppressed ignored , right \? n't oppressed california 's ok oppress us , 's 're saying ! i'm saying 's none government 's business two consenting adults private n't believe , unfortunately certainly hope n't , sir , heard disparaging towards political minorities , shred self respect , 'd door keep insulting women blacks comparing homosexuals \? sort crap makes fucking sick ca n't even bring touch 're perspective , valid life experience , true knowledge human condition see point trying convince politely 're like ones 've met , 're showing willingness open minded enough accept stupid generalizations exceptions intellectual waste , reason believe worst homosexuals bring worst bi andrew simchik schnopia ! yet another reminder emotional instability homosexuals clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent ,
v2110a vm temple edu \( richard hoenes \) subject n't come \? organization temple university lines 8 nntp posting host vm temple edu x newsreader nnr vm 1 3 2 initial gun battle , 50 days come peacefully high priced lawyer , judging posts public support anyone come rational explanation n't come \( even negotiated coming radio sermon \) n't include davidians wanting commit suicide murder general mayhem \? richard
v2110a vm temple edu \( richard hoenes \) subject janet reno killed waco children organization temple university lines 34 nntp posting host vm temple edu x newsreader nnr vm 1 3 2 article 1993apr20 153450 27407 ncsu edu dsh eceyv ncsu edu \( doug holtsinger \) writes janet reno killed waco children responsible deaths resign immediately understood david koresh madman would anything children became provoked warning signs ignored provoked koresh killing children janet reno , fbi , et al nothing koresh 's game madman going hurt children , everyone else compound matter fbi situation waco similar hostage situation madman holding gun head innocent person situation , person provokes madman causes pull gun 's trigger responsible death hostage janet reno blindly stumbled basically threw tear gas container madman hoping would release hostage 's surprise madman would pull trigger response kind provocation hostage situation taken place numerous occasions result police trying take place force result death hostages gunmen however , first time 've heard blame landing squarely police country policy negotiating back terrorists hostage takers since encourages terrorists hostage takers richard
rpi edu \( mitchell e gold \) subject new religion forming sign reply weinss rs6101 ecs rpi edu 's message thu , 22 apr 1993 00 08 06 gmt nntp posting host rpi edu organization rensselaer polytechnic institute lines 1 yawn church kibology first better
tom tredysvr tredydev unisys com \( tom albrecht \) subject 's next \? mormons jews \? organization unisys , applied technology , , pa lines 11 article 1993apr20 ra royalroads ca mlee post royalroads ca \( malcolm lee \) writes armed teeth christian rely physical weapons defend christian rely faith intelligence faith intelligence tell breaks house night knife kill 2 wallet , 357 considerably persuasive tom albrecht
jmeritt mental mitre org \( jim meritt system admin \) subject satan ! ! ! organization utexas mail news gateway lines 113 nntp posting host cs utexas edu someones biblical claim characteristics satan probably portion scripture talking , isaiah 14 12 15 speak morning star , according babylonian prince ok , turn attention daniel 10 12 14 passage concerns revelation prophecy daniel messenger god within passage , messenger god speaks fought 3 weeks prince persian kingdom obviously , prince earthly prince prince persian kingdom probably one demons satan 's hierarchy , morning star prince babylon w ho also satan another passage concerning satan 's fall heaven ezekiel 28 12 19 separately devil chose try become greater god wanted sit god 's throne devil created , one beautiful angels heaven three distinct claims concerning results devil 's decision making , specific desire , physical description , support \( aside minor detail author seldom writes unbiased account opposition \) see isaiah 14 12 15 isa 14 12 art thou fallen heaven , lucifer , son morning ! art thou cut ground , weaken nations ! isa 14 13 thou hast said thine heart , ascend heaven , throne stars god sit also upon mount congregation , sides north isa 14 14 ascend heights clouds like high isa 14 15 yet thou shalt brought hell , sides pit n't say sits god 's throne says throne stars daniel 10 12 14 dan 10 12 said unto , fear , daniel first day thou set thine heart understand , thy god , thy words heard , come thy words dan 10 13 prince kingdom persia withstood one twenty days , lo , michael , one chief princes , came help remained kings persia dan 10 14 come make thee understand shall fall thy people latter days yet vision many days see discussed \? ezekiel 28 12 19 eze 28 12 son man , take upon king , say unto , thus saith lord god thou sum , full wisdom , perfect beauty eze 28 13 thou hast eden garden god every pre stone thy covering , , topaz , dia , , onyx , , sapphire , em , , gold workmanship thy ta thy pipes prepared thee day thou wast created eze 28 14 thou art anointed set thee thou wast upon holy mountain god thou hast walked midst stones fire eze 28 15 thou wast perfect thy ways day thou wast created , till iniquity found thee eze 28 16 multitude thy merchandise filled midst thee violence , thou hast sinned therefore cast thee profane mountain god destroy thee , covering , midst stones fire eze 28 17 thine heart lifted thy beauty , thou hast corrupted thy wisdom reason thy brightness cast thee ground , lay thee kings , may behold thee eze 28 18 thou hast defiled thy multitude thine iniquities , iniquity thy therefore bring forth fire midst thee , shall thee , bring thee ashes upon earth sight behold thee eze 28 19 know thee among people shall thee thou shalt terror , never shalt thou anyone else make claim characteristics devil \?
wmoore ads com \( william moore \) subject line copy book mormon keywords bom , book mormon , mormon organization advanced decision systems , mtn view , ca \( 415 \) 960 7300 distribution usa lines 7 anyone provide ftp site obtain online version book mormon please email internet address possible william h moore advanced decision systems , division , allen hamilton software engineer 1500 plymouth street net wmoore ads com mountain view , ca 94043 \( 415 \) 960
wmoore ads com \( william moore \) subject line book mormon organization advanced decision systems , mtn view , ca \( 415 \) 960 7300 distribution usa lines 15 newsgroups talk religion misc subject line copy book mormon summary distribution usa organization advanced decision systems , mtn view , ca \( 415 \) 960 7300 keywords bom , book mormon , mormon anyone provide ftp site obtain online version book mormon please email internet address possible william h moore advanced decision systems , division , allen hamilton software engineer 1500 plymouth street net wmoore ads com mountain view , ca 94043 \( 415 \) 960
ceci lysator liu se \( \) subject rosicrucian order \( \) \? ! organization lysator acs linkoping university lines 50 sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) writes anyway , n't anything amorc , wanted point secret organizations lead human beings , know means , interesting experience rosicrucians , least rosicrucians sort last sunday advertised holding lecture titled king room heart \( swedish \) curiosity , went lecture four people apart two rosicrucians , one woman two men apart rosicrucians male , first one told us rosicrucians lectorium rosicrucianum , founded harlem , nl 1925 read straight piece paper , point lacked experience talking front people , guy read , , used holding speeches , could tell first guy also said r mystical christian order , base teachings teachings \( english \? \) thirteenth century guy took , reading piece paper fairy tale 's voice said sounded like load crap course might unenlightened something made bit suspicious , way first said contained something divine , could find way back divinity , could n't become divine persons currently , worked really hard would reach eternal bliss maybe 've read much raw , sounded much like things talks chapter people friends prometheus rising interesting watch two rosicrucians one holding actual lecture , obviously top dog , one seemed true believer got impression top dog distance faith true believer , used gain power admiration spoke like fairy tale , whenever remembered \) information brochure home want address , please e mail ceci ceci lysator liu se men jag nd att emacs r os lars \( still , think emacs fairly good operating system \)
turpin cs utexas edu \( russell turpin \) subject christian meta ethics organization cs dept , university texas austin lines 106 distribution na nntp posting host im4u cs utexas edu summary response dave davis wrote say interpretation twisted \? many passages bible straightforward reading show christian god behaving way article cass ma02 bull com ddavis cass ma02 bull com \( dave davis \) writes requires assumption interpretations equally valid , way reasonably distinguishing among would n't make assumption n't think reasonable assumption follows fact choice interpretation stems mix beliefs influenced secular ethics culture fully determined scripture whether right interpretation matters christians claim ability read mind god dave davis note michael first stated importance secular cultural influence thread think michael right , regardless , noted point contention michael argued beyond michael 's claims christian scriptures open many interpretations including wide divergence within christian tradition even important themes vague , matter right interpretation unless way determine right interpretation lack objective measure , presumed lack answer , puts force behind line argue michael , , others , read 'the christian glasses among things imply nt informs ot , even point points ot \( ceremonial dietary laws \) explicitly nt texts enough christian glasses , varying sufficiently broad range color , find support example , michael , conservative christians also take gospel seriously differentiates way interpret gospel russell turpin 's 'no' misplaced , say inappropriate michael 's self description must govern equation radical liberal , seems implied russell turpin wrong opinion , makes michael radical fully acknowledges christian scripture tradition fail determine doctrines many branches within christianity hold dear willing live practice religion within , willing acknowledge much understanding things christian influenced ideas purely christian christians called conservative must also interpret , recognize least , unwilling admit extent importance russell turpin \( earlier post \) said michael \( michael 's theological positions , actually \) n't tell much christianity dean responds \( time gently \) 'what mean \? ' direct , perhaps , would 'what could possibly mean \? ' implied rhetorical effort , separate michael tradition , failure michael tradition idea tradition n't include , change idea tradition ! recognize michael part tradition tell one tradition covering origen , aquinas , jerry , jesse jackson also includes michael siemon \? much ! short , extra christian principles make michael 's christianity beneficial , suspect would beneficial , perhaps , without filtered christian interpretation conclusion follow , even short , argument goes surprising logical think conclusion follow purely christian principles michael ones shares others christian tradition derived christian scripture , necessarily vague , enough drive political stances one love one 's neighbor purely christian principle means showing tolerance homosexuality political stances , often odds commonly held current christendom , suspect could better pressed outside \( hand , well understand , political stances become influential presented need \) theological statement worthy dr turpin \( dd \) may wear black robe geneva yet ! \) barely survived effort finish computer science , doubt attempt difficult field time soon ! russell
dpw sei cmu edu \( david wood \) subject kind loving god ! ! reply mlee post royalroads ca 's message thu , 15 apr 1993 20 02 31 gmt organization software engineering institute lines 37 mlee ra royalroads ca \( malcolm lee \) writes laws written israelites , god 's chosen people god expressly set apart rest world israelites direct witness god 's existence disobey god knowing god real would outright denial god therefore immediately punishable remember , laws written different time applied god 's chosen people jesus changed living age grace sin longer immediately punishable death repentance salvation lord jesus christ chosen people salvation available everyone , jew gentile alike sorry late thread , thought god supposed constant never changing reconcile common christian view paragraph \? also , 're 1 reconcile kind loving god ! ! judeo christian view sin one time immediately punishable death \? killing people sinning god 's way showing kindness love \? 2 fact longer admission part made mistake \? 3 living age grace , mean sins , god us eternal hell die , rather killing us immediately \? , eternal damnation example kind loving god ! ! \? curious dave wood
pharvey quack kfu com \( paul harvey \) subject jewish history question organization duck pond public unix 1 408 249 9630 , log 'guest' 1993apr10 csi uottawa ca netcom com lines 70 article netcom com cocoa netcom com writes article 1993apr10 csi uottawa ca csi uottawa ca \( mark israel \) writes article 43y netcom com , cocoa netcom com \( little 'e' \) writes deleted tis someone told old testament books translated greek long time ago yes , 's famous version called septuagint translation made greek jews originals destroyed fire soon afterward n't know 're referring temple destroyed , manuscripts may lost , think extant hebrew manuscripts good greek ones n't know originals person telling septuagint version said greeks wonderful library alexandria full manuscripts scrolls burned soon septuagint version translated \( perhaps conceal changes different versions , perhaps part typical burning valuable things occurs changes power groups , dunno \) library alexandria perhaps greatest library ever built world greeks love wisdom , philo , great love reflected alexandrian library christians got hold began modifying purging texts moslems invaded either christians burned library keep falling moslems hands \( far likely since book , moslems \) , burned sack city moslems burned either way , tremendous amount information lost destruction library alexandria probably one greatest crimes man man , wondering , since imagine jewish people somewhere must copies earlier hebrew versions , hebrew version old testament different greek derived version \? famous discrepancies \( isaiah 's prophecy young woman changed virgin , new testament writers read \) , many actually , hebrew , \( young woman \) , translated hellenistic greek may may correctly translated modern technical english term virgin jews type virginity cult greco romans diana well , perhaps answer deleted go jewish bookstore , 'll get bible translated jews , differences interpretation , text 're translating basically standard text used christians jews masoretic text jews course use text original hebrew , without translation want read original , buy bible contains hebrew old testament greek new testament , english translation written underneath word want bible possibly original basic text , try find samaritan bible \( good luck ! 've never seen one \) samaritans \( , good samaritans \) version 5 books moses claim jewish bible altered ezra propaganda thanks tips find someone teach samaritan \) , little 'e' \( , good samaritan hard find \? hard oh , finish
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject lds birth church reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 22 article acsu buffalo edu psyrobtw ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( robert weiss \) writes church admit right except one associated makes witnesses , decide case , seeing unlike church christ , existed former days ! \( p 31 \) idea apostacy originate lucy smith joseph smith mormons idea restoration quite common early 19th century usa alexander campbell , founder group survives name disciples christ preached primitive church lost attempting restore \( although revelations \) many subsequently became mormons , including co founder sidney actually , find sentiments many early protestants reformation , martin luther gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
pharvey quack kfu com \( paul harvey \) subject kind loving god ! ! owl csrv uidaho edu 1993apr21 ra royalroads ca organization duck pond public unix 1 408 249 9630 , log 'guest' lines 26 article 1993apr21 ra royalroads ca mlee post royalroads ca \( malcolm lee \) writes point i'm trying make call christian may christian wow ! serious ! everyone calls themself christian christian \? wow ! make things bit complicated n't \? ask draw conclusions say seems like good advice , given revelation example jesus christ christian like example matthew 5 14 19 right \? repented sins accepted jesus christ personal lord saviour christian um , jesus say wanted people worship \? criteria christian , adhere ten commandments \?
syshtg gsusgi2 gsu edu \( tom gillman \) subject biblical backing koresh 's 3 02 tape \( cites enclosed \) organization georgia state university lines 16 rick howtek mv com \( rick roy \) writes article 595 oryx com \( alt conspiracy , talk religion misc \) , oryx com \( stephen l favor \) writes koresh killed wanted lots illegal guns even say true , think reasonable way deal people want lots illegal guns \? makes say guns illegal \? \? understand bd 's valid class iii federal firearms permit , would allow pretty much anything short legally tom gillman , systems programmer wells computer center ga state univ classic star trek security \( 404 \) 651 syshtg gsusgi2 gsu edu officer sometime show gsu n't care say internet , \?
e p unl edu \( edgar pearlstein \) subject waco information accuracy organization university nebraska lincoln lines 14 distribution world nntp posting host unlinfo unl edu remembered first reports came fbi , independent observers , e press , allowed get close see things official tend self serving agencies issue people general tend believe first reports , get biggest headlines corrections often overlooked example fbi report several bodies found rubble bullet wounds local coroner , independent fbi , far found bullet wounds !
brian lpl arizona edu \( brian ceccarelli 602 621 9615 \) subject good jesus died \? organization lunar planetary laboratory , tucson az lines 120 brian ceccarelli wrote \( 's \) kent , accusing evil things jesus accusing accusing accusing everyone , everyone world guilty whether one sees light seen light nothing whether evil things regardless kent sandvik responds hmm , seems core christianity , feel guilty think see coming kent jesus n't view guilt like modern colors feelings nothing guilt feelings arise state guilty feeling guilt exclusive feelings reaction guilt jesus talking guilt state , reaction let give example ever made mistake \? ever lied someone \? even little white lie \? ever claimed know something really n't know \? ever hated someone \? ever selfish \? guilty one \? answer course , yes guilty period jesus getting big surprise feelings even enter picture consider jesus 's use word guilt court uses jesus concerned everyone admit guilty imperfect bible calls state sinners bad things even thing wrong proof guilt sinners nature bad things sinners , therefore bad things sinner fact pleasant fact fact perfect calling us sinners emotional charge calling human guilty charged 's single personality save universal guilt feeling handle guilt one two ways acknowledge made mistake , learn , try meantime , punishing way jesus wants handle healthy way two , destructive way put , slap feel like crap , never forgive , force say thousand hail even suicide way jesus want us deal people fall category extent lives jesus business saving us guilt feeling jesus business showing us much loves us despite guilt jesus knows guilty n't new big deal wants realize sinful nature destroys relationship wants know , wants company immensely valuable jesus wants relationship , however , present sinful nature , incapable relationship god perfect cannot fit square peg round hole however , god provided way us change nature relationship god provided jesus , whosoever believes jesus , nature changed holy spirit move divine nature within lives us god communicate unifying holy spirit benefits endless divine nature living within us , see imperfections better head pass power holy spirit living us , power help us overcome shortcomings divine nature lives within us , understand profound bible passages never could understand divine nature lives within us , authority demonic forces lastly , divine nature lives within us , eternal life holy spirit eternal relationship jesus utmost importance life qualifies belong heavenly kingdom , relationship living god remember jesus said tail end matthew separated goats sheep many people last day ask , n't prophesy name miracles , good things name \? jesus say \? depart , never knew cornerstone christianity , kent jesus must know friend relationship jesus friend , counted among share inheritance heaven brian , tell secret , n't feel guilty , mistakes , regret , however 've never huge guilt feeling hanging shoulder good shows strong self image love second greatest commandment jesus taught people could said , common english , feeling guilty different meaning state guilt clear indication need certain personality type order believe adjust certain religious doctrines personality type opposite , easily attached certain world view system believe need personalities lot less ego , lot less self , lot unconditional love humans subscribe notion nice thing finally shake huge burden , shoulders feel far relaxed ! yes stated jesus said remember \? come , take yoke upon shoulders , burden light yoke used direct work relationship jesus , share yoke burdens life god side great advantage
brian lpl arizona edu \( brian ceccarelli 602 621 9615 \) subject rw robert weiss orthodox christian \? organization lunar planetary laboratory , tucson az lines 11 rick anderson writes simply assume referring robert weiss one really understands biblical scriptures \? also understand read bible cover cover , examining book within , cross comparing , etc come conclusions robert weiss rick , read bible \? written plain english decide
ss apmaths uwo ca \( sultan \) subject merlin , mithras magick organization applied mathematics , u w nntp posting host apmaths uwo ca lines 9 article 93111 195217a54si cunyvm bitnet a54si cunyvm bitnet writes stuff mithras deleted oh , b day 25 dec ahem thought celebrated romans time mithras connected \?
e p unl edu \( edgar pearlstein \) subject burden proof organization university nebraska lincoln lines 8 distribution world nntp posting host unlinfo unl edu sometimes god believer maintain atheism religion many postings group answered well 's another way answer assertion suppose believe broken mirrors black cats bring bad luck mean superstition \?
brian lpl arizona edu \( brian ceccarelli 602 621 9615 \) subject rob lanphier organization lunar planetary laboratory , tucson az lines 34 brian kendig writes n't get , \? fact , believe religion imaginary clearly demonstrated even know religion order make assumption please offer argument 's convincing n't believe 'cos n't want present argument put hands eyes devise new excuses time \? fact remains , want argue something know anything learn topic first reasonably debate topic \? brings us start thread began perverting bible verses , interpreting without investigation desired investigate , would changed tune immediately thus clear believe saying n't want check everything 've said far could apply equally religion believe real one \? must also ignored every post written would seem go along character brian , n't offend decide reject jesus christ wish would make decision learn jesus
arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \( ken arromdee \) subject good jesus died \? organization johns hopkins university cs dept lines 26 article 1993apr23 organpipe uug arizona edu brian lpl arizona edu \( brian ceccarelli 602 621 9615 \) writes kent , accusing evil things jesus accusing accusing accusing everyone , everyone world guilty whether one sees light seen light nothing whether evil things regardless ever made mistake \? ever lied someone \? even little white lie \? ever claimed know something really n't know \? ever hated someone \? ever selfish \? guilty one \? answer course , yes guilty period jesus getting big surprise feelings even enter picture consider jesus 's use word guilt court uses said everyone world means everyone world , including children old enough speak , let alone tell lies jesus says everyone , cannot support referring group people somewhat smaller everyone first day christmas truelove served leftover turkey ! second day christmas truelove served turkey casserole made leftover turkey days 3 4 deleted flaming turkey wings ! pizza hut commercial \( tlu gic bait \) ken arromdee \( arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \)
scharle lukasiewicz cc nd edu \( scharle \) subject gospels , josephus , etc origins reply scharle lukasiewicz cc nd edu \( scharle \) organization univ notre dame lines 27 article 1993apr21 rambo atlanta dg com , wpr atlanta dg com \( bill rawlins \) writes agree creation taught science macroevolution taught science however , teaching wildly speculative theories macroevolution explanation origins , equal time given creation neither one qualifies science create philosophy course call origins bill rawlins wpr atlanta dg com speak interesting idea suggestion inspired post , title theories creation , collection various philosophies creation aware could explain theories would want taught , ones would \? , perhaps , n't included favorite theory \( , could describe inclusion updated list \) \? tom scharle scharle room computing center scharle lukasiewicz cc nd edu university notre dame notre dame , 46556 usa
daveb pogo wv tek com \( dave butler \) subject objectivity \( 2000 years \) organization tektronix , inc , wilsonville , lines 83 discussion objective seems falling \( eg recent challenge frank , someone prove actually observe phenomena \) someones even made statement science subjective even atom subjective getting bit silly word objective losing meaning lets start remembering definition objective already presented objective adj 1 material object distinguished mental concept 2 actual existence 3 emotion personal prejudice b based observable phenomenon objectivity thing based whether everyone agrees thing \( eg world objectively round , regardless fact exist flat earthers \) , rather whether based observable verifiable phenomenon \( instead based solely peoples wishes , feeling , mental processes , etc \) thus atoms , based observable repeatable phenomenon , indeed considered objective rather subjective even weird , high energy physics based observable phenomenon \( even though observation change outcome \) observable phenomenon affected emotion , personal prejudice \( eg chemical reactions change whims different people \) thus say science objective \( ie objectively verifiable \) bit silly , point science agree science objectively good thereby conclude though science objective examples things objective 12 tractor larger average green seawater contains salt exists ozone atmosphere \( least presently \) ozone blocks ultraviolet light ultraviolet light increases incidents skin cancer good hand value judgement n't seem existence apart give \( unless someone objectively show existence omnipotent entity defined good \) cannot quantify , touch collect concrete sense \( eg bag full good \) sometimes attempt give word good objective meaning , e g good used denote strength , , speed , etc though , subjective definition , might see strength etc , necessarily good \( eg strength inspired generally viewed good \) morality , cannot say ever seen morality strictly based verifiable observable phenomenon closest seen form golden rule , concludes best deliberately piss people , likely involve life , manner wo n't like verifiable get someone 's face , often retaliate another objective fact morality powerful group enforce morality weaker group , thus times , ignore form golden rule without fear whether enforcing morality good bad , quite subjective way , remember subjective mean thing cannot formally stated , even commonly agreed upon means verifiable observable phenomena , physical existence unto also note stated thing objective morality , could accept morality simply stated seen evidence morality one thing notice , objective many times used synonymous true absolute , subjective sometimes connotation false relative tai n't necessarily instance , conclusion based objective , insufficient evidence , objective false absolute , easy note objectively show tnt explosive , absolutely mean tnt explode , thus objective necessarily absolute either hand , something subjective also either absolutist , true instance , theists specifically absolutist morality , even though subjective evidence back , many scientist detective motivated subjective reasons \( eg gut feeling hunch \) , investigate phenomena situation , gather objective evidence necessary support true hypothesis whole though , would agree objective evidence much trustworthy subjective evidence later , dave butler starting thesis , seems , one put forward one 's point departure something expression simple
brian lpl arizona edu \( brian ceccarelli 602 621 9615 \) subject good jesus died \? organization lunar planetary laboratory , tucson az lines 30 article gyx netcom com bskendig netcom com \( brian kendig \) writes long 're trading secrets , let tell y'all one got really bad feeling heart back christian could n't really , something felt cheap wrong whole affair devout follower , even bible banger , eventually started ringing terribly hollow felt torn began disagree lot bible \( priests \) told made finally realize either wrong , else bible wrong since felt reasonably sure , decided start analyzing bible closely catalyst break faith , though long difficult effort brian , checked priests told bible see whether telling truth \? know according bible , n't even things priests anymore \? know established old testament begin reasons jesus , priests roman catholic church 300 years later devised doctrine ignoring whole concept beyond book hebrews \? said analyzed bible closely think lying , would think would least got doctrine hell straight beef jesus \? specific point verses
thyagi cup portal com \( thyagi morgoth nagasiva \) subject oto , ancient order oriental templars organization portal system \( tm \) distribution world lines 13 tony alicea \( ch981 cleveland freenet edu \) wrote previous article , shades cutler com \( darrin \) says lodge n't internet address , cis address reached via uucp internet , 1351 guess would 1351 cis com' something like compuserve com 've tried 1351 compuserve com bounced twice guesses \? thyagi
eeb1 quads uchicago edu \( e elizabeth bartley \) subject part n't understand \? reply eeb1 midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 30 article 1993apr21 advtech uswest com steven advtech uswest com \( steve novak \) writes david r sacco writes people even raised protests moment silence class member tragically died , saying implied endorsing religion , course , possibility existed meaning student really gave shit could moment silence , makes sense forcing want participate take part reason organized moment silence \? moment silence n't mean much unless everyone participates otherwise 's silent , \? non religious reasons moment silence dead classmate \( 1 \) comfort friends showing respect deceased , \( 2 \) give classmates moment grieve together , \( 3 \) give friends moment remember classmate context school , \( 4 \) deal fact classmate gone 's disruptive later blindly opposing everything flavor religion utterly idiotic pro choice anti roe e elizabeth bartley abortions safe , legal , early , rare
brian lpl arizona edu \( brian ceccarelli 602 621 9615 \) subject rob lanphier organization lunar planetary laboratory , tucson az lines 40 wrote hope brian k look see ramifications truck coming towards hope brian want step way fear , though , brian instead choose glue middle highway , certainly get run chooses , chooses , nothing beyond change mind choice moment , brian n't gotten even far still point want look sure moves eyeball appease , head turn around see entire picture far satisfied glimpse mountains distance kent sandvik writes problem imagine inside huge wall , unable see reality clearly case relativity plays big role concerning looking opposite frames reality kent , regards information contained bible \( original context thread \) , brian kendig inside huge wall brian inside bible information contained therein outside wall brian kendig proves sad fact absurd things says example , get pit , cease exist bible n't say n't clue even jesus said hell one example sense , kent , sensing reality different matter brian , relativity play big role perceive true , depends vantage point since read bible , brian kendig shows n't , narrower perspective mine \( least respect knowledge bible \) proposing brian , brian , come take look vantage point brian replies , rather thank content besides , vista stinks meanwhile , brian ignores facts never realize shared plateau brian stands
oracle uucp \( david \) subject biblical backing koresh 's 3 02 tape \( cites enclosed \) organization oracle corporation , redwood shores ca lines 51 nntp posting host us oracle com x disclaimer message written unauthenticated user oracle corporation opinions expressed user necessarily oracle \( st \) stephen tice \( km \) ken mcvay \( st \) seems koresh yet another messenger got killed \( st \) message carried \( says nothing \( km \) seems , barring evidence contrary , koresh simply \( km \) another deranged fanatic thought neccessary take whole bunch \( km \) folks , children , satisfy delusional mania jim \( km \) jones , circa 1993 think 's plenty evidence contrary six rescued davidians consistantly recounted federal tank knocked barrel propane guys n't exactly spending time together , plotting elaborate consistent story would contradictory koresh go mass suicide remember koresh 's death opening sixth seal signal armageddon begun army \( people compound \) would fight powers evil win , ending rapture fire wiped army read earlier koresh planning walk compound blow grenade would better teachings \( st \) mean time , sure learned lot evil corruption \( st \) surprised things gotten rotten \? \( km \) nope like koresh demonstrating evil corruption \( km \) centuries 'd think 'd last one support gassing people burning death religious beliefs corrupt \? evil \? n't know 'll never know start calling people religious beliefs , 's people saw happened many germans started believing jews one neat stroke , destroyed evidence could pointed wrongdoing killed witnesses , including 12 children whose last view life choking pain , followed burning alive extremely saddened tragedy occurred i'm used money become accessory dave n't alibi oracle corporation victim doorstep way justify 's family business fish
arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \( ken arromdee \) subject 's next \? mormons jews \? organization johns hopkins university cs dept lines 16 article tec army mil riggs descartes etl army mil \( bill riggs \) writes second question , makes gerry think actions would different another type warrant use \? taking guess , perhaps koresh peaceably served warrants , shoot anyone instead went police without fighting first day christmas truelove served leftover turkey ! second day christmas truelove served turkey casserole made leftover turkey days 3 4 deleted flaming turkey wings ! pizza hut commercial \( tlu gic bait \) ken arromdee \( arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \)
b645zaw utarlg uta edu \( stephen \) subject biblical backing koresh 's 3 02 tape \( cites enclosed \) news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host utarlg uta edu organization university texas arlington lines 103 article 1r17j9 5ie sbctri sbc com , netd susie sbc com \( \) writes name \? \( stephen \) writes think david koresh n't solid structure , sound biblical backing hour long tape broadcast , n't think anyone really cares solid structure sermon tells quite lot man 's deaths 's responsible concern people spokesman people \? 've enclosed partial list sources cites quotes exactly used christian sermon , 's pretty good , inspired though differ part conclusions , argument presents well backed 's taken long work still ongoing thought rambling says far koresh 've made curious say \? n't recognize biblical commentary used church know language though , excuse first seal revelation 6 , entirety psalms 45 , revelation 19 demonstrated one major points writings prophets \( including david \) , psalms , revelation telling story understand 're related \( ie key \) largely explain charles manson used revelation well see pattern \? wonder koresh liked beatles \? missed point prophets , psalms , revelation , together , provide rich view special event wedding koresh nut , okay \? found ways bible backup rantings make less kook able make conclusion \? please note , first part revelation makes clear address church said , n't hurt try see prophecies ahead time outside church seems koresh yet another messenger got killed message carried 'll type slowly understand either set fire told followers n't make martyr get killed , killed say interesting see investigators conclude , final judgments mean time , sure learned lot evil corruption surprised things gotten rotten \? evil inside compound thou shalt kill stuff much war government eh oh yeah , one last point believers philippian 2 14 19 rest us , could please post text \? glad asked , since goofed philippian 1 14 19 \( niv \) chains , brothers lord encouraged speak word god true preach christ envy rivalry , others good latter love , knowing put gospel former preach christ selfish ambition , sincerely , supposing stir trouble chains matter \? important thing every way , whether false motives true , christ preached rejoice comment stems realization love lord , human imperfect whatever preach , matter eloquent , corrupted little difference know master 's voice recognize gem stone amidst rock also lesson ear hear j stephen
b645zaw utarlg uta edu \( stephen \) subject biblical backing koresh 's 3 02 tape \( cites enclosed \) news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host utarlg uta edu organization university texas arlington lines 33 article 1993apr21 maths tcd ie , pmoloney maths tcd ie \( paul moloney \) writes cotera woods ulowell edu \( ray cote \) writes david \( sp \? \) , one cult members , said fire started one tanks spraying tear gas facilities knocked lantern two places \? bit coincidence , never lived country see 4 years ago place carry propane every month , hook bottle copper line , supply stove , type water heater called flash heater flash heater pilot lamp 's point davidians propane tanks hooked copper \( \) lines , run ceiling spaces fbi started wrecking place , could easily ruptured lines would start spreading overhead since country home , n't necessarily built non insulation 's probably plausible anything else , fire started mainly result accident willful negligence part fbi , known better \( ie manslaughter \) 's certain tanks n't used day fire would n't started whatever faults fbi , fact responsibility deaths lies koresh paul , fact \?
bskendig netcom com \( brian kendig \) subject good jesus died \? organization starfleet headquarters san francisco lines 45 brian lpl arizona edu \( brian ceccarelli 602 621 9615 \) writes beef jesus \? first foremost , honestly believe jesus anything man lived died two thousand years ago know bible provides wonderful stories things said , simply believe still exists entity bearing universe lives , similarly believe god worship exists ever existed period view religion general christianity specific passed generation generation people often afraid think claim responsibility fate , children believing popular myths , goes eventually christianity becomes given many people believe , must right , \? n't believe life death believe die , die , therefore 's try bring meaning purpose life meantime n't believe 's good thing humble view pride sin pride , moderation , constructive thing see nothing wrong homosexuality nothing inferior women , priests lost lot trust tried explain opinions n't believe , especially people 've never met try show respect everyone , love admiration something easily earned , feel guilty denying respect consideration someone abused want take religion least bit seriously , stop trying show bible makes sense start trying show jesus person somehow still influencing anyone 's life earth brian kendig je ne suis fait comme aucun bskendig netcom com de ceux que j'ai vus j'ose croire n'etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent meaning life si je ne vaux pas mieux , au moins je suis autre ends rousseau
psyrobtw ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( robert weiss \) subject 24 apr 93 god 's promise proverbs 15 4 organization university buffalo lines 7 news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host ubvmsb cc buffalo edu tongue brings healing tree life , deceitful tongue crushes spirit proverbs 15 4 \( niv \)
b645zaw utarlg uta edu \( stephen \) subject biblical backing koresh 's 3 02 tape \( cites enclosed \) news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host utarlg uta edu organization university texas arlington lines 38 article apollo hp com , nelson p apollo hp com \( peter nelson \) writes article 1993apr21 1 woods ulowell edu cotera woods ulowell edu writes article 1r17j9 5ie sbctri sbc com , netd susie sbc com \( \) writes article 20apr199301460499 utarlg uta edu b645zaw utarlg uta edu \( stephen \) writes think david koresh n't solid structure , sound biblical backing hour long tape broadcast , n't think anyone really cares solid structure sermon 's deaths 's responsible concern people assume evidence responsible deaths \? koresh nut , okay \? , 'd like see evidence nut , clearly liar said would surrender local radio stations broadcast message , n't said would surrender passover , n't rest story seems agreement broadcast prime time , koresh never even heard played n't even tuned radio aired reason come later given copy grossly twisted transcript i'm certain koresh would think mercy evil coming passover , n't one lawyer 's speculations peter \? j stephen
nrao edu \( bob \) subject 's next \? mormons jews \? organization nrao lines 110 article agate berkeley edu , isaackuo spam berkeley edu \( isaac kuo \) writes article apollo hp com goykhman apollo hp com \( red herring \) writes fbi claims , basis intelligence reports , bd 's plans commit suecide , btw , bugged place listening bd 's conversations till end koresh 's attorney claims , based 30 hours spent talking client others compound , saw indication bd 's contemplating suecide survivors claim suecide 's clear one survivors made claim clear least one survivors made contradictory claim bd members started fire , far clear word fbi survivor made claim contradictory word lawyers spoke survivors individually agreed suicide pact intentionally start fire absense evidence , n't see decide believe furthermore , quite possible general suicide pact small inner circle took upon kill everyone else state area , may never know happened bd 's contemplating suecide , reason believe committed one reason \? two 1 survivors claimed bd members poured fuel along set fire speed fire spread inconsistent claim , word fbi claim lawyers also talked deny making claim 2 certainly fire killed people compound good possibility fbi start fire good reason believe bd 's agree assessment relative probabilities likely bd 's started fire fbi currently way decide actually happened based publically available evidence \( nearly none \) 3 even bd 's contemplating suicide , possible david koresh convinced \( thus convinced others \) suicide sort three possibilities bd 's self destruction dead , escaped via bunker , etc reports inadequacies tunnels bodies found , would rate highly unlikely b fire started fbi accident possible , would foolish us declare outright evidence back sure , 's possible armored vehicle knocked lantern started fire \( lit lantern middle day near edge complex \? \) 's anecdotal evidence contradicted c fire started purpose fbi suggested net , would rate possibility utterly ludicrous sci skeptic would call extraordinary claim wo n't bother refuting unless someone gives good evidence back fire started accidentally bds truely amazed heard \( read \) one suggesting possibility tear gas lack power compound adults wearing gas masks , chaotic inside easily image someone leaving lamp close something accidentally dropping lamp knocking one winds , would quickly gotten control left two reasonable possibilities fire fbi accident fire started bd find latter likely based evidence 've seen far , think also quite reasonable personally ca n't really asses relative either 3 probabilities although forced bet issue , would probably take accident \( either fbi bd \) setting fire \) would also like add comment related reports bodies recovered gunshot wounds coroner today show morning categorically denied 've reach conclusions pointed intense heat , sufficient pressure builds head cause explode look much like massive gunshot wound head quite consisted te reports 've read heard short , 's almost evidence many scenarios happened monday remain skeptical information available isaac kuo \( isaackuo math berkeley edu \) twinkle , twinkle , little sig , \( \( \) \) keep less 5 lines big bob
cco caltech edu \( justin fang \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization chaotic lines 34 nntp posting host 131 215 42 51 article 1993apr23 asl dl nec com , duffy asl dl nec com \( joseph duffy \) wrote article hilbert cyprs rain com max hilbert cyprs rain com \( max webb \) writes big bang sound absolutely convinced ! tell long last , color \? since asked big bang formation atoms seconds color bright bright must exciting know sure n't believe current theory fairly well supported observational evidence \( well supported , say evolution relativity , 's another matter \) 're one proposes unquestioningly accepting religious dogma fact \( apologies 're actually creationist \) way , seems though fine line new miracles new theories line broader think theories supported evidence miracles supported someone 's say joe duffy duffy asl dl nec com nec america , inc advanced switching laboratory justin fang \( cco caltech edu \) space intentionally left blank
cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) subject ancient references christianity \( albert sabin \) organization university illinois urbana lines 12 nt tossed info jesus realize normally tossed contains miracles , reasons \? mac michael cobb wo n't raise taxes middle university illinois class pay programs champaign urbana bill clinton 3rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu nobody explain everything anybody g k chesterton
wdstarr athena mit edu \( william december starr \) subject message mr president know happened \? organization northeastern law , class '93 lines 40 nntp posting host nw12 326 1 mit edu reply tbrent bank ecn purdue edu \( timothy j brent \) note followup redirect \( \) alt conspiracy , talk politics misc article noose ecn purdue edu , tbrent bank ecn purdue edu \( timothy j brent \) said response p vasilion , n't pack heavy weaponry intent use n't really think allowed keep stuff \? , tell live sure steer well clear public also rights , placed individual go ahead , call commie , 'd singing different tune exercised right rape daughter broke law , threat society , job simple \( 1 \) evidence david koresh followers packing heavy weaponry intent use recreational self defense purposes \( 2 \) statement public also rights correct individuals comprise public also rights separate rights bearing entity known public \( 3 \) since rights public spoke fact rights individuals , statement rights public placed rights individual meaning \( 4 \) artificially created conflict individuals' rights speak right rape daughter person right rape another person , therefore conflict \( 5 \) define society \? hold society rights bearing entity separate individual people \? define threat society \? extent believe person loses rights declared \( \? \) threat \? william december starr wdstarr athena mit edu
hertz njit edu \( david utidjian eng sci \) subject fact theory organization new jersey institute technology , newark , n j lines 42 nntp posting host hertz njit edu jim andy incorrect believe facts , processes exist present physical evidence processes occured past facts exist without theory theory tries explains facts relate rest physical universe manner coherent useful , used make predictions facts gravity , evolution , electromagnetic radiation , relativity , atoms exist behave way behave regardless whether theory try explain interact even theory never really becomes fact theory predict existence previously unknown fact , find fact theory predicted say theory supported facts theory mental construct , speculation , model good model , may useful science theory something supported evidence , considerable evidence , sometimes evidence hypothesis new fledgling theory yet enough evidence support new hypothesis proposed replace existing theory , must explain facts current theory explains least facts current theory could predict new facts simple i'm surprised subject gets beat death month quick glance dictionary would clear 99 confusion bandwidth newsgroup could talk really important things like , men nipples \? david utidjian utidjian berkeley edu
mikec sail labs tek com \( micheal cranford \) subject evolution fact theory keywords evolution , fact , theory , gould organization tektronix , inc , beaverton , lines 22 article ursa bear com halat pooh bears \( jim halat \) writes deleted fact evolution \? difference calling evolution fact talking theory evolution providing facts \( happen think latter accurate \) deleted evolution fact theory theory evolution represents scientific attempt explain fact evolution theory evolution provide facts explains facts safely assumed scientific theories neither provide become facts rather explain facts recommend appropriate reading general science good starting point regard evolution layman would evolution fact theory hen 's teeth horse 's toes pp 253 262 stephen jay gould great deal useful information publication uucp uunet ! tektronix ! sail ! mikec cranford uunet ! tektronix ! sail labs tek com ! mikec principal troll arpa mikec sail labs tek com relay cs net resident skeptic mikec sail labs tek com , tektronix
turpin cs utexas edu \( russell turpin \) subject history texts \( ancient references christianity \) organization cs dept , university texas austin lines 78 nntp posting host saltillo cs utexas edu summary response mike cobb article c5ztju fkx news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) writes nt tossed info jesus realize normally tossed contains miracles , reasons \? far tossed , gospels taken , almost universally , primary source information jesus curious mike cobb referring new testament \? undoubtedly naive atheists , phrasing question seems suggest cobb broadly perhaps question gets heart matter , except naive believers \( , unfortunately , far , naive critical \) , gospels taken gospel truth faithfully records happened two thousand years ago \? easy answer , answer nothing miracles text taken way critical reader myth among naive believers one takes text , measures set criteria , either confirms text historically valid text suspect myth comes way history presented primary secondary school , certain texts vested authority , writers josh mcdowell pretend present historical arguments along lines religious program fact , texts used primary secondary school history classes ought tossed , even better texts treated authoritatively , josh mcdowell would know historical argument bit twice let present outlines different view texts use studying history first , texts historically valid texts put another way , never seen notion historical validity makes sense applied text second , text read telling gospel truth historical events , way many students wont read history texts primary secondary school text \( includes favorite author 's history whatever \) every text historical fact every text written person \( group people \) purpose hence , every text serve historical evidence question learn text \? interesting things \( \) text provide evidence \? diaries followers maharishi , formerly oregon , historical evidence gospels historical evidence letters officers participated vampire eastern europe historical evidence modern american history textbooks whitewash great american figures historical evidence historical evidence various things much evidence maharishi , formerly oregon , could jesus resurrected exist great american figures squeaky clean learned school better evidence people saw maharishi , late oregon , early christians thought jesus resurrected many people eastern europe saw return grave still educational system largely prefers spread myth rather teach history one draw causal connections infer piece historical evidence text otherwise \? complex question easily summarized answer many books subject various parts subject enjoy david hackett fischer 's historian 's fallacies good uncritical way easy read texts present history 's relatively cheap 's easy read give try russell
ch981 cleveland freenet edu \( tony alicea \) subject ceci 's rosicrucian adventure \) organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 79 reply ch981 cleveland freenet edu \( tony alicea \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu hello ceci name tony comments rosicrucian adventure hereby state claiming denying membership order , fraternity etc without word rosicrucian name organization claim done homework \) intended friendly article times seems different , 's lack writing skills showing , nothing else heck , english may second language ! \( maybe \) proceed , interesting experience rosicrucians , least rosicrucians sort last sunday let 's start name rosicrucian took long time come conclusion difference member rosicrucian body rosicrucian say met 'rosicrucians' mean members group calls rosicrucian least observation suggests \) 'd prefer would stated front lectorium rosicrucianum , may confused , readers newsgroup , rosicrucian order amorc based \( usa jurisdiction \) san jose , ca rc org members \( last time looked \) course , members necessarily mean best anyway , lectorium rosicrucianum claims descend \( least part \) gold und \( golden rosy cross \) , 18th century two golden rosy cross , first \( \) , second masonic , history subject complete chapter \) 'll trust tell lecture class whatever presented amorc , unlikely would impression , e , 'd probably positive impression likely negative one , imho first guy also said r mystical christian order , base teachings teachings \( english \? \) thirteenth century , instead r , lectorium rosicrucianum \) curious know 3 rc \( usa \) claim non sectarian christian sect directly challenged medieval catholic church flourished 12th century , century saw religious zeal expressed crusades also growing catholic church worldly ways largely response church 's took root , first northern italy , throughout south france made bit suspicious , way first said contained something divine , could find way back divinity , could n't become divine persons currently , worked really hard would reach eternal bliss n't see nothing fundamentally wrong us containing something divine yes n't like phrases like eternal bliss either ! \) people moment thought referring madison ave \) \( madison avenue new york city influential \( read \) commercial advertising produced usa \) peace , tony btw , read intro letters lrc mail free charge
perry dsinc com \( jim perry \) subject burden proof organization decision support inc lines 40 nntp posting host bozo dsinc com article 1993apr21 888 batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes default condition , absence preponderance evidence either way , proposition assertion undecidable person takes undecidable position says simply proposition true , one holds burden proof called weak atheist position virtually stands firm foundation logical argument , 's proponents simply disbelieve existence god \( \) therefore hold burden proof n't assert anything , n't prove anything 's weak atheism draws strength strength also heel without assertions axioms , one foundation upon build philosophy , 's virtually worthless imo , course yes , philosophy weak atheism worthless true exactly sense philosophy disbelief zeus worthless atheists construct personal philosophies many different sources , building non god based ideas way christians build non zeus based ideas atheists base philosophy atheism christians base nonexistence zeus weak atheist position logically extremely logical demonstration existence god completely destroys soon demonstration made presence given weak atheist atheists newsgroup regularly attempts provide logical demonstration , fail miserably fact , people around claim strong \( opposed mathematical \) atheist position basis believe god , also arguments presented favor particular gods date proven unsound therefore , one say gods argued arguments exist n't apply gods defined logically , gods popular religion , coherence claims quite questionable jim perry perry dsinc com decision support , inc , matthews nc opinions nominal fee ,
mikec sail labs tek com \( micheal cranford \) subject nature light organization tektronix , inc , beaverton , lines 21 article ursa bear com halat pooh bears \( jim halat \) writes deleted take light another example two theories particle wave one fails predict behavior light point particle wave \? deleted information topic much date quantum electro dynamics \( qed considers light particles \) experimentally verified 14 decimal digits precision tested conditions i'm afraid case , least physics community , decided consult qed strange theory light matter richard p feynman technically minded 's feynman lectures physics feynman , sands \( excellent 3 volumes \) case closed uucp uunet ! tektronix ! sail ! mikec cranford uunet ! tektronix ! sail labs tek com ! mikec principal troll arpa mikec sail labs tek com relay cs net resident skeptic mikec sail labs tek com , tektronix
rgv9488 ritvax isc rit edu subject hail stan ! nntp posting host vaxa isc rit edu reply rgv9488 ritvax isc rit edu organization rochester institute technology lines 71 found net college sounds pretty good folks think \? tenets stan handed set within holy book stan 1 thou shalt spill thine drinks waste thine food , sacred , waste denizen luc , infidel waste today shall tomorrow 2 thou shalt pay heed know higher calling stan may teach way , thou shalt become one stan universe shall hands 3 thou shalt honor thy loved ones cherish near , true path happiness , happiness devine gift thy lord stan 4 stan one true god shall taken others false gods know one , oppose shall forever banished form sheep sent flocks luc eternity 5 word law , law word word within thine heart , follow path true thine self thou shalt blessed stan , thy lord saviour 6 thou shalt honor faiths others , choice follow path , think less others different faith , yet even face false gods , waiver thine faith stan , hope see light stan 7 thou shalt wrong others different , stan different , holds freedom highest regard , less would fall luc , infidel , stan control , merely guides , lets choice lie within thine heart 8 thou shalt know thy lord stan many names called differently many people , know also stan true name , faith shall know stan god god stan 9 thou shalt world thou art , false others false thy lord stan asks like , asks like ever meant 10 thou shalt kill innocent spill blood unnecessarily , deserving death shall dealt stan sent eternity flocks luc , harm children stan , born woman , shall judged sheep luc spend time within flocks commandments words stan heed shall happy , thy lord stan happy , happiness shall passed followers hail stan ! seems like pretty good set tenets v like e mail robert voss die ! ! especially rgv9488 ultb isc rit edu 25 andrews memorial dr die ! ! side order rgv9488 ritvax isc rit edu cpu die ! ! french fries rgv9488 ritvax bitnet rochester ny die ! ! die ! ! darkness eternal ! call ! phone number \( 716 \) 475 die ! !
bill emx cc utexas edu \( bill \) subject behave \( waco reading suggestion \) organization university texas austin , austin , texas lines 19 nntp posting host emx cc utexas edu would like understand better sort behavior saw connection waco tragedy , 'd strongly recommend reading prophecy fails , leon , henry , stanley \( available harper \) goes long way towards explaining belief system strong withstand even overwhelming evidence least , read first chapter interestingly , branch davidians roots seventh day adventist movement , roots movement first half 19th century movement expected end world 1843 , disappointed take place , wound church bill meet buddha net , put kill file robert
mlee post royalroads ca \( malcolm lee \) subject kind loving god ! ! organization royal roads military college , victoria , b c lines 33 article sandvik sandvik kent apple com , sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) writes article 1993apr21 ra royalroads ca , mlee post royalroads ca \( malcolm lee \) wrote say scripture man knows hour coming , even angels heaven father \? dk trying play god breaking seals dk killed many followers could btw , god save children heaven , far better place know \? faith seems faith tool available emotional purposes due tragedy maybe fills need , however i'm getting tired see children dying pain sudan due lack food , assuming god takes sufferers heaven painful death children fed , whose fault \? plenty food tables others starve \? god gave us earth manage n't think 're good job consolation suffering children received kingdom heaven never thirst never hunger peace , malcolm lee \) cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
clavazzi nyx cs du edu \( doge \) subject koresh doctrine 4 4 x disclaimer nyx public access unix system run university denver denver community university neither control responsibility opinions users organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept lines 34 article dscomsa desy de hallam zeus02 desy de writes article 1993apr23 mnemosyne cs du edu , clavazzi nyx cs du edu \( doge \) writes deleted vast quantities carefully spew david koresh n't know rest , think mr tice needs hobby one spent last summer telling everyone doubted word great perot perot bashers , right moment kept quiet bit came back perot entered seems appropriate , somehow \) rumour fact survived fire secret rose third day spirited away fbi agents disposed order prevent cult following hah ! best authority \( mine \) koresh time share condo dallas elvis , jfk , \( course \) j r bob dobbs , also owns place everything else texas look koresh sightings weekly world news national enquirer coming months doge south st louis dobbs approved media conspirator \( tm \) one step beyond sundays , 3 5 pm 88 1 fm st louis community radio 'll pay know really think ! j r bob dobbs
subject rawlins debunks creationism rfox charlie usd edu \( rich fox , univ south dakota \) reply rfox charlie usd edu organization university south dakota computer science dept nntp posting host charlie lines 36 article ursa bear com , halat pooh bears \( jim halat \) writes article usenet ucs indiana edu , bio indiana edu \( andy peters \) writes evolution , said , theory fact exactly amount existence atoms existence gravity accept existence atoms gravity fact , also accept existence evolution fact andy n't accept atoms gravity fact either extremely useful mathematical models describe physical observations make posters aptly explained atomic model gravity , , much theory gravity waves even detected , useful model describes much behavior objects thing call gravity gravity , however , fact theoretical model used talk objects behave physical environment newton thought gravity simple vector force einstein wave useful models religious requirements faith , unless course want demand factual physical entity described exactly way theory formulated talks takes great leap faith , , course , religion takes evolution different jim halat halat bear com serious \? ! ! ! 's exercise next time take model hold directly fresh release model observe model assume trajectory come rest exactly belongs watch , particularly wearing shorts perform experiment rich fox , anthro , usouthdakota
bskendig netcom com \( brian kendig \) subject good jesus died \? organization starfleet headquarters san francisco lines 143 jasons atlastele com \( jason smith \) writes bskendig netcom com \( brian kendig \) writes felt torn began disagree lot bible \( priests \) told start getting little uncomfortable \? style start feeling bit cramped \? yes , 's exactly felt heart felt taught wrong basically good message , framed errors could clear conscience accept women somehow equal men , homosexuals guilty lifestyle , pride one 's work bad thing , jesus died n't want anybody die , especially impersonal act person ca n't possibly even know well enough really know i'm worth dying never able accept bit jesus 's death good thing means i'm comprehending basic message christianity , maybe i'm compatible christianity refuse follow rules blindly , since ca n't even convince god even exists way describe , 've got follow conscience matters know goes knowing could n't n't want live rather rules kept outside , n't think morals shoddy nonexistent n't believe god steal , murder fear divine , n't character may think 's nothing keeping running around murdering , stealing things i'm able , insulting people heck , i'm answerable anyone 'd wrong i'm answerable life like would cheap life happen want earn respect 'till met man , initial break christianity came lot soul searching lot wondering could longer feel god finally decided felt presence felt mighty teddy bear beside little , protecting monsters bed believed god believed teddy bear , something emotional crutch protect perceived dangers since , 've never abandoned possibility maybe supernatural trinity exist times , darkened room bed , set aside everything believe moment called whatever 's , want know truth even means abandoning everything know yet received answer truly listened , body soul , realize could longer honestly keep charade christian higher truth universe , christianity ai n't suggestions \( \) might , \? nope may well unknowable scientists suggested universe may finite wrap around \( three dimensional universe may mapped onto four dimensional way map two dimensional plane onto three dimensional sphere see , sequel , thoughts \) entire universe might electron four dimensional universe , turn may insignificant universe , forth variables become much us even speculate , 's possible way us know exactly came , 's reason believe god exists anything ok , may say , i'm good , good enough \? 's answer feel 're fine , go ahead ignore us foolish little christians present 've seen experienced \( providing witness \) , n't us make seed sprout christians provided nothing except quotes holy book , sorts tactics try get believe guilt trips , i'm without morals , arguments disbelief \( possibly believe god n't exist \? \) , forth i'm asking convince want convinced , 's going easy much n't like 're selling , may someone identify methinks could give us lesson tolerance back years upon years contact religion inside outside , view harmful many ways people want find meaning lives , 's got people , teaches pity \( sometimes intolerant \) others share views maybe 'll say religion n't teach 've got judge christianity christians know feel entirely possible good faith one 's self , positive influence society better reason hope words newsgroup least make people think want christians realize perfectly valid lifestyles opinions nothing deity whatsoever , want people considering christianity realize christianity hold sole key happy , fulfilled life known nice christians done nice things think sets people apart general masses recognize religious beliefs may wrong , know weaknesses religion , yet still decide believe , keep beliefs think less people n't agree obviously , debate veracity reliability source christian 's faith far conclusive , notwithstanding vehemently propose otherwise precisely point 've still given reason christian instead buddhist moslem nice thing religion , lose deeply enough , eventually 'll able feel justified anything want y'know right fortunately everyone around , i'm religious i'm christian moslems n't religious , buddhists n't religious religious , \? brian kendig je ne suis fait comme aucun bskendig netcom com de ceux que j'ai vus j'ose croire n'etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent meaning life si je ne vaux pas mieux , au moins je suis autre ends rousseau
huston access digex com \( herb huston \) subject fact theory organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 18 nntp posting host access digex net article 1993apr24 njit edu hertz njit edu \( david utidjian eng sci \) writes simple i'm surprised subject gets beat death month quick glance dictionary would clear 99 confusion bandwidth newsgroup reading stephen jay gould 's essay evolution fact theory would n't hurt , either appears hen 's teeth horse 's toes could talk really important things like , men nipples \? see gould 's male nipples bully gee , easy herb huston huston access digex com
mlee post royalroads ca \( malcolm lee \) subject right \? organization royal roads military college , victoria , b c lines 61 article 1993apr22 ifi uio , joakimr ifi uio \( joakim ruud \) writes recently , 've asked rather interesting question right god lives \( always assuming god , course ! \) \? \? god infinite wisdom , made perfectly clear n't live according rules , burn hell well , right god make desicion \? god let 's say , sake argument , god creates every one us \( directly indirectly , n't matter \) happens , first creates us , turns us lose well , n't ask created god granted gift life whether sinner saint let 's make analogue scientist creates unique living creature \( happened , even patented ! ! ! \) , right expect behave certain matter , die \? scientist creates living creature examine , poke prod learn behaviour kill becomes threat example , let 's say scientist creates rex breaks free confines starts population scientist would hesitate killing god creates us loving companions knows whether true love lets us know consequences rejecting god cannot abide sin rejecting god , person becomes enemy god , one must killed note say god god alone worthy judge , jury executioner called carry duties worthy god impose rules us \? tell god really righteous god likes us believe \? christians flock sheep , unable otherwise follow rest \? god god question creator \? doubt god 's certain situations , claim know better solution \? would playing role god \? hmmmmmmmmmmmm want point sarcasm , mean one deal man convinced acting according god 's , jokke fore believes favour stabbing back \? voltaire
robert knowles p00261 psilink com subject history texts \( ancient references christianity \) reply saltillo cs utexas edu nntp posting host 127 0 0 1 organization performance systems int'l x mailer psilink dos \( 3 3 \) lines 15 date 24 apr 1993 11 53 48 0500 russell turpin turpin cs utexas edu diaries followers maharishi , formerly oregon , historical evidence confusing bhagwan \( sp \? \) maharishi mahesh yogi chance \? think bhagwan oregon rolls maharishi mahesh yogi founded transcendental meditation flying stuff bhagwan 's group communal , free sex kind thing think , though
mlee post royalroads ca \( malcolm lee \) subject kind loving god ! ! organization royal roads military college , victoria , b c lines 35 article 1993apr22 nntpd2 cxo dec com , bittrolff evans enet dec com \( \) writes article 1993apr20 643 ra royalroads ca , mlee post royalroads ca \( malcolm lee \) writes btw , david koresh jesus christ claimed tell sure \? three days n't passed yet well , \? another false messiah shot flames matthew 24 4 watch one many come name , claiming , 'i , deceive many matthew 24 23 time anyone says , 'look , christ ! ' ! ' believe false christs false prophets appear perform great signs miracles deceive even elect possible see , told ahead time listen \? sadly , us peace , condolences families lost waco malcolm lee steve bittrolff previous opinion , shared reasonably intelligent person
mlee post royalroads ca \( malcolm lee \) subject 's next \? mormons jews \? organization royal roads military college , victoria , b c lines 20 article tredysvr tredydev unisys com , tom tredysvr tredydev unisys com \( tom albrecht \) writes article 1993apr20 ra royalroads ca mlee post royalroads ca \( malcolm lee \) writes armed teeth christian rely physical weapons defend christian rely faith intelligence faith intelligence tell breaks house night knife kill 2 wallet , 357 considerably persuasive tom albrecht give 2 , leave house call police 's would kill protect mere possessions peace , malcolm lee \)
mlee post royalroads ca \( malcolm lee \) subject laws god \( kind loving god ! ! \) organization royal roads military college , victoria , b c lines 85 article 1993apr23 sei cmu edu , dpw sei cmu edu \( david wood \) writes mlee ra royalroads ca \( malcolm lee \) writes laws written israelites , god 's chosen people god expressly set apart rest world israelites direct witness god 's existence disobey god knowing god real would outright denial god therefore immediately punishable remember , laws written different time applied god 's chosen people jesus changed living age grace sin longer immediately punishable death repentance salvation lord jesus christ chosen people salvation available everyone , jew gentile alike sorry late thread , thought god supposed constant never changing reconcile common christian view paragraph \? god never changes still loves us sending jesus one attempts reconcile mankind nature god changed also , 're 1 reconcile kind loving god ! ! judeo christian view sin one time immediately punishable death \? killing people sinning god 's way showing kindness love \? sinning face god punishable immediate death several ot passages back god god cannot tolerate sin midst israelites knew ! still , chose disobey destroyed people kind loving \? god gave every break could end , really choice matter seeing failing achieve salvation , sent son die us ultimate sin offering live age grace 2 fact longer admission part made mistake \? sent son consolation us , love 3 living age grace , mean sins , god us eternal hell die , rather killing us immediately \? , eternal damnation example kind loving god ! ! \? hey , let 's fair moment kind loving mean free ride amount give take relationship parents supposed kind loving mean children whatever want \? ! part parent means administering punishment child fault part parent means giving instruction god tests us trial life may grow stronger teaches right wrong consequences actions made clear us , heaven hell god follow warned us , would good parent parenting , parent issues warning follow , children take parent 's words seriously god telling us ears hear life 's trials , see folly rather warns us consequences rejecting comes time judgement follow \? peace , malcolm lee \) curious dave wood
mlee post royalroads ca \( malcolm lee \) subject kind loving god ! ! organization royal roads military college , victoria , b c lines 11 article quack kfu com , pharvey quack kfu com \( paul harvey \) writes , adhere ten commandments \? jesus peace , malcolm lee \)
f gautjw ccsvax sfasu edu subject message mr president know happened \? organization stephen f austin state university lines 108 article utarlg uta edu , b645zaw utarlg uta edu \( stephen \) writes article 1993apr21 ccsvax sfasu edu , f gautjw ccsvax sfasu edu writes article 1993apr21 1 ccsua ctstateu edu , ccsua ctstateu edu writes told friends mine two weeks ago koresh dead fbi batf could let man like live testimonial stupidity lies deleted unfortunately , think 've got figured pretty well also ask question plan many months important \? government really \? seal warrant \? koresh first second amendments , among others \? allow play devils advocate moment jg n't expect find devil 's role , stephen , times try men 's souls called many months planning probably intelligence collecting paperwork interviews nine months , understand doubt accounts significant amount time government efficiency spending tax dollars would certainly seek absolute minimum event gut instinct says hand took careful k extent attack meshes well restrictive gun control legislation seems agenda day also fits pattern increased government interference personal religious beliefs randy weaver trial 's important justifies budgets quarrel big bang theory always apt appropriation time n't possess single motive warrant sealed keep government 's case certainly think publication warrant undermines government 's case since makes claims illegal action therefore federal judge reason seal reminded senator frank church 's remark secrecy trademark totalitarian government rarely sufficient motive seal warrant nation free people probably one actually exercising instead , system bureaucratic rules set incidents like computer programs periodically especially used fringe areas \( cf hostage rescue program \) therefore one charge one reasonably held responsible argue logic \? long suspected government become mindless machine go confirm worst fears ! become beast programmed simply say kiss toe get piece pie \? suspect bugs program arise agents love critter independent thoughts , generally speaking , protecting jobs , budgets , watching terminator ii waited 444 days hostages come home iran gave people 51 days 186 died alamo 86 died day waco yes , 186 seeds new republic 86 \? rev 11 9 people tongues nations shall see dead bodies three days half , shall suffer dead bodies put graves burial \? bodies witnesses said property state \? typical bureaucratic delay \? rev 11 10 dwell upon earth shall rejoice , make merry , shall send gifts one another two prophets tormented earth stephen , sensed lately \? j stephen joe gaut super state , really f gautjw ccsvax sfasu edu matter actually happened remember alamo truth government chooses remember waco tell justice wants happen jim garrison , new orleans , la
battin cyclops iucf indiana edu \( laurence gene battin \) subject message mr president know happened \? nntp posting host cyclops iucf indiana edu organization indiana university x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 45 article utarlg uta edu , stephen \( b645zaw utarlg uta edu \) wrote article 1993apr21 ccsvax sfasu edu , f gautjw ccsvax sfasu edu writes article 1993apr21 1 ccsua ctstateu edu , ccsua ctstateu edu writes told friends mine two weeks ago koresh dead fbi batf could let man like live testimonial stupidity lies deleted unfortunately , think 've got figured pretty well also ask question plan many months important \? government really \? seal warrant \? koresh first second amendments , among others \? allow play devils advocate moment jg called many months planning probably intelligence collecting paperwork interviews 's important justifies budgets warrant sealed keep government 's case probably one actually exercising instead , system bureaucratic rules set incidents like computer programs periodically especially used fringe areas \( cf hostage rescue program \) therefore one charge one reasonably held responsible baloney either programmer people decided let actions governed program clearly fault neglect maintenance car , steering goes , responsible death kids sidewalk car subsequently drives gene battin battin cyclops iucf indiana edu sig yet
eeb1 quads uchicago edu \( e elizabeth bartley \) subject part n't understand \? reply eeb1 midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 33 article hav kyle eitech com ekr kyle eitech com \( eric rescorla \) writes article 1993apr24 midway uchicago edu eeb1 midway uchicago edu writes moment silence n't mean much unless everyone participates otherwise 's silent , \? non religious reasons moment silence dead classmate \( 1 \) comfort friends showing respect deceased , \( 2 \) give classmates moment grieve together , \( 3 \) give friends moment remember classmate context school , \( 4 \) deal fact classmate gone 's disruptive later yeah , well good fact , though , pro school prayer types tried use moment silence way get prayer back high school instance , dear principal ended moment silence amen certainly see opposing amen n't require opposing moment silence 'll back anybody else besides see vicious circle \? guarantee people want school prayer n't going back ca n't even manage get quiet moment kids pray silently pro choice anti roe e elizabeth bartley abortions safe , legal , early , rare
pgf srl03 cacs usl edu \( phil g fraering \) subject 's next \? mormons jews \? organization univ southwestern louisiana lines 23 hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) writes article cunews , superior carleton ca \( mike richardson \) writes lots good points mormons us founding fathers us hardly great religious freedoms least one history read formed opinion left us practice religious freedom practice religious intolerance bzzt thank playing 're confusing pilgrims founding fathers difference 150 years much different culture phill hallam baker phil fraering seems like every day find sorts stuff pgf srl02 cacs usl edu like ancient mayans televison repo man
pgf srl03 cacs usl edu \( phil g fraering \) subject behave \( waco reading suggestion \) organization univ southwestern louisiana lines 9 come noone mentions eric talking fanatic behavior anymore \? phil fraering seems like every day find sorts stuff pgf srl02 cacs usl edu like ancient mayans televison repo man
isaackuo skippy berkeley edu \( isaac kuo \) subject 's next \? mormons jews \? organization u c berkeley math department lines 41 nntp posting host skippy berkeley edu article gerry onion cmu edu gerry cmu edu \( gerry \) writes , knock warrant clear violation 4th amendment okay , fact tipped n't opened fire right \? wrong ! think drug dealer competition wants away call tell feds way knock warrant , sheep wait , guns holstered , instead feds , comes competition , 're history acceptable answer knock warrant blazing guns ! may sound paranoid , government control , killing federal officers make knock sense back hmm police strategy bursting weapons drawn , clearly marked officers yelling police repeatedly used every day bust drug houses idea awe suspects submission surprise display order avoid gun fight knocking , 's sad necessity many cases since suspects attempt escape even fight usually strategy works n't , would n't used commonly , would \? whether appropriate use strategy bd point , since n't think us enough information make clear judgement issue merely point valid strategy used every day furthermore , n't know substitute strategy capable apprehending potentially dangerous armed suspects suggest police always knock guns holstered never arrest suspects allowed inspect officers 's badges \? police apprehending potentially dangerous armed suspects \? far reasonably go \? suggest ca n't faked competition \? even 've got deadly enemies may pretend cops , 's excuse murder police case bd 's , almost definitely paranoid delusion deadly would pretend cops isaac kuo \( isaackuo math berkeley edu \) twinkle , twinkle , little sig , \( \( \) \) keep less 5 lines big
ekr kyle eitech com \( eric rescorla \) subject part n't understand \? organization lines 37 nntp posting host kyle eitech com article 1993apr24 midway uchicago edu eeb1 midway uchicago edu writes article hav kyle eitech com ekr kyle eitech com \( eric rescorla \) writes article 1993apr24 midway uchicago edu eeb1 midway uchicago edu writes moment silence n't mean much unless everyone participates otherwise 's silent , \? non religious reasons moment silence dead classmate \( 1 \) comfort friends showing respect deceased , \( 2 \) give classmates moment grieve together , \( 3 \) give friends moment remember classmate context school , \( 4 \) deal fact classmate gone 's disruptive later yeah , well good fact , though , pro school prayer types tried use moment silence way get prayer back high school instance , dear principal ended moment silence amen certainly see opposing amen n't require opposing moment silence see camel 's nose 'll back anybody else besides see vicious circle \? guarantee people want school prayer n't going back ca n't even manage get quiet moment kids pray silently i'm willing take chances winning whole thing , personally ekr eric rescorla ekr eitech com 've got failure communicate
emarsh hernes sun eng sun com \( eric marsh \) subject right \? organization sun lines 64 nntp posting host hernes sun article 1993apr24 ra royalroads ca mlee post royalroads ca \( malcolm lee \) writes article 1993apr22 ifi uio , joakimr ifi uio \( joakim ruud \) writes recently , 've asked rather interesting question right god lives \( always assuming god , course ! \) \? \? god words , right might infinite wisdom , made perfectly clear n't live according rules , burn hell well , right god make desicion \? god words , right might let 's say , sake argument , god creates every one us \( directly indirectly , n't matter \) happens , first creates us , turns us lose well , n't ask created god granted gift life whether sinner saint words , , , position argue let 's make analogue scientist creates unique living creature \( happened , even patented ! ! ! \) , right expect behave certain matter , die \? scientist creates living creature examine , poke prod learn behaviour kill becomes threat example , let 's say scientist creates rex breaks free confines starts population scientist would hesitate killing god creates us loving companions knows whether true love lets us know consequences rejecting god cannot abide sin rejecting god , person becomes enemy god , one must killed note say god god alone worthy judge , jury executioner called carry duties worthy words , better god wants , else ! god impose rules us \? tell god really righteous god likes us believe \? christians flock sheep , unable otherwise follow rest \? god god question creator \? doubt god 's certain situations , claim know better solution \? would playing role god \? words , game , made rules , know whats good 'll play game way
pharvey quack kfu com \( paul harvey \) subject christian \? davidians compassion quack kfu com 1993apr21 ra royalroads ca organization duck pond public unix 1 408 249 9630 , log 'guest' lines 22 article 1993apr21 ra royalroads ca mlee post royalroads ca \( malcolm lee \) writes article quack kfu com , pharvey quack kfu com \( paul harvey \) writes article 1993apr20 756 ra royalroads ca mlee post royalroads ca \( malcolm lee \) writes one follow teachings christ , christian easy \? would exclude self proclaimed christians follow ten commandments \? matter fact , yes least strive proud boast faith 100 still human imperfect therefore , liable sin thankfully , opportunity forgiveness god , malcolm lee \) sounds like 're modifying definition christian anyone follow teachings christ read correctly \? constitutes strive \? jesus say define striving means \? give example striving insufficient qualify one christian thus condemns one eternal damnation fiery torture \? self proclaim christian basis \?
agr00 ccc amdahl com \( anthony g rose \) subject rw robert weiss orthodox christian \? reply agr00 juts ccc amdahl com \( anthony g rose \) organization amdahl corporation , sunnyvale ca lines 30 article 93111 byuvm bitnet librba byuvm bitnet writes robert , keep making references orthodox belief , saying things like held \( cf kermit thread \) exact body theology drawing call orthodox \? holds luke meant said meant \? whenever personal interpretation biblical passages challenged , response seems one needs merely look bible order see truth , see biblical things differently \? simply assume one really understands \? curious , rick anderson librba byuvm bitnet robert refers orthodox , talking historical position christian faith things derived texts centuries fathers faith right people read things differently bible , alright parts like parables forth however , comes essential doctrines historical orthodox beliefs , one correct way read example , either doctrine trinity true , false yes , people read texts differently , one position true cannot according text , doctrine true always existed therefore , people like joseph smith come along vision thinks undo centuries doctrine supported bible , people consider cult
mls panix com \( michael siemon \) subject commandments \( basics \) organization panix public access unix , nyc lines 205 anyone \( check let 's restrict christians , \) want find commandments books regarded scripture \? 's going \? pass answers \( whether open \) kind issue deal question theological point involved \? quoted often enough n't believe take seriously , jesus \( said \) said , love , obey commands john 14 15 , like christian , slave christ , wills \( also , instead \) younger brother , still direction , though call god christians , therefore , try find lord commands , discovering feel obligated , confess failure readers may set aside jargon \( slaves christ \) point adherents religion read texts \( whether classified inspired \) held models , effort find application situations practice ranges devotional reading sermons like exegesis canon scripture word god highest pitch , leads question whether find inspired scripture something act absolute guidance actions problem finding lord commands going set aside essay one major direction christians looked commands , namely christian tradition reject tradition , primary audience essay protestants , deny tradition value , favor witness scripture question want deal , commandments find lord scripture \? turns hard question protestant inquisitors would like turn discussion authority tradition , accomodate \) , unlike protestants , episcopalians admit claims \) scripture b \) reason c \) tradition roughly equal standing earlier john quote , read john 13 34 give new commandment love one another place nt christians given explicit commandment , context commenting imperative mode jesus meal readers infer , since john , synoptics jesus says , take bread body mark 14 22 , cf matthew 26 26 , luke 22 19 , 1 corinthians 11 24 mode imperative \( greek \) , hence , , commandment cases infer command directed wider circle immediate disciples judge evangelist 's point mentioning \( disciples mostly entirely dead \) expected follow commandment lord case communion , paul 's mention \( least probably true evangelists also \) implies ongoing ritual liturgy words operate bind christians original command disciples , continuing commandment christian community entirely comfortable inference , must point , us occasion jesus spoke command take clear inference , least notion , christians called love one another , jesus' command directed disciples call attention inference command cannot apply without generalization specific context statement context disciple christ reading scripture make inferences , get sense text whatsoever general problem reading texts cannot read without understanding native languages \( normally \) read \( translated \) texts , without appreciation original context \( points , original languages , english us \) going presume , follows , general problem read scripture control n't really think true , suffice current purposes address issues arise already understanding 2000 year old text another world one live questions level introduce commandments issue found read texts original audience might done among reasons seeing john 's agapate allelou general commandment \( merely instruction jesus disciples one occasion \) , one linking synoptic great commandment criticism , jesus , limiting love congenially associate matthew 5 read , learnt said 'you must love hate enemy say love enemies fact , leviticus context quoted say merely common human presumption \( leviticus pains say love extend strangers amongst people israel \) luke , expanding q context , goes jesus say even sinners love love 6 27 suggests quite strongly , 'd say \) limiting scope new commandment quite jesus mind short , inference leads generalizing actual text command force christians , objects limited christians trickier agapate allelou institution communion , case great commission \( matthew 10 , mark 6 \) twelve sent evangelize , proclaim kingdom heaven close hand verb imperative \( ke \) , context rather specific twelve , \( turn steps pagan territory , enter samaritan town parallels even specific jesus' final journey jerusalem \) make harder see generalizing christians previous examples n't prevented christians making inference call attention inference justified text , \( unlike first two cases cite \) rhetoric evangelist urged reader still , paul seems felt obliged proclaim kingdom heaven close hand even \( contrary jesus' instructions 12 \) \) gentiles , ends earth , christians also taken commandment sense john 14 15 accept \? n't know surely rather speculative see inference spread text pretext christians \( may \) infer general commandment , applicable , presented gospels specific occasion \( necessarily \) object kind generalization insist people make must understanding reasoning \( considerable length \) actually scripture assumptions involved reasoning , scriptural \( though people best justify assumptions references scripture simply adds inference mix ! \) let 's move great commandment love god whole hearts minds souls , perhaps , synoptic equivalent john 's agapate allelou yet , presented commandment , texts rather , context controversy pharisees cite matthew 22 pharisees heard sadducees got together , , one put question , master , greatest commandment law \? means obvious \( though accept \) jesus' answer meant commandment christians answering enemies mark 's account , 12 28 34 casts answer far positive light \( scribe version says \) far important holocaust \( need point word context animal sacrifice forget nazis \) sacrifice luke intermediate lawyer posing question jesus , gets good parable pains luke 10 25 37 contexts various one could forgiven drawing inferences \) account said obviously taken commandment binding christians though think entirely reasonable conclusion case jesus thinks point mental gears grind cycle get conclusion commanded , jesus contingent understanding point jesus' use torah \( quite different \) gospel accounts , application context us different contexts among synoptics curious noted luke get fixing command parable good samaritan may look analogous intent matthew , 7 12 gives golden rule meaning law prophets \( may also hear echo hillel saying , generation jesus \) make associations \( think entirely reasonable \) , inference texts explicitly support us rather , read texts kind inter relationship current literary theory calls discussion agapate allelou apply beyond community disciples , circle christian believers , applies , conclusion \( despite presentation saying explicitly \) commandment christians christians would disagree conclusions must point conclusions , depend rather elaborate chains reasoning simply present texts , contextual problem keeps coming , severely look sayings jesus universally taken christians commandments get really hard cases take divorce mark pretty clear , man wife another guilty adultery 10 11 , cf luke 16 18 except matthew escape clause except case fornication , 5 31 seems rather clear commandment \( whether take matthew 's reservation \) christians , day , take n't , least practice rather peculiar jesus explicit \( whereas says nothing things people teeth \) possible , commands christ clear , matthew disagree evangelists synoptic tradition \? i'm going continue examination , ever waters , enough start theme finding commandments scripture exercise inference inferences informed assumptions , , cultural biases , far , identified commandments generally accepted christians yet , already , difficulties start surface difficulties want discuss next essay topic divorce commandment already strikes difficulties see almost evidence people eager find commandments condemn , spend time writing nasty soc couples misc legal horrors divorce , demanding us law refuse allow , refuse unrepentant places churches say divorce n't enter consideration general definitely matter concern , even liberal church circles example , \( wildly \) liberal episcopalian priest , \( wildly \) liberal , recommended couple approached marry private secular ceremony judge , public ceremony celebrated need go agonizing examination officials would soon take role interpreting commands faced christians , church effectively created famous divorce ! michael l siemon say gods , sons mls panix com high , nevertheless shall die like men , fall mls ulysses att com like prince psalm 82 6 7
mls panix com \( michael siemon \) subject part n't understand \? organization panix public access unix , nyc lines 29 hav kyle eitech com ekr kyle eitech com \( eric rescorla \) writes high school instance , dear principal ended moment silence amen extremely good example evidence ! every time right wing control freaks start spouting prayer schools , get nagging commentary sermon mount matt 6 5 6 pray , imitate hypocrites love say prayers standing synagogues street corners people see tell , reward pray , go private room , shut door , pray father secret place want public prayers , better manipulate children amen indeed pro school prayer types stop trying sneak religion , 'll stop opposing everything even looks remotely like religion , thank hope n't mind say amen \? \) michael l siemon say gods , sons mls panix com high , nevertheless shall die like men , fall mls ulysses att com like prince psalm 82 6 7
psyrobtw ubvmsd cc buffalo edu \( robert weiss \) subject 25 apr 93 god 's promise psalm 56 4 organization university buffalo lines 9 news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host ubvmsd cc buffalo edu god , whose word praise , god trust afraid mortal man \? psalm 56 4 \( niv \)
pharvey quack kfu com \( paul harvey \) subject christians law \? clarification pe organization duck pond public unix 1 408 249 9630 , log 'guest' 1993apr21 1206 ualr edu lines 125 article 1993apr21 1206 ualr edu nunnally acs harding edu \( john nunnally \) writes going hear christian answer question \? paraphrase whose authority christians proclaim law prophets \( 7 major 12 minor \) accountable ten commandments jesus clearly spoke opinion matthew 5 14 19 \? source pseudo doctrine \? pseudo teacher \? great deceiver \? ok , 's least one christian 's answer jesus jew , christian context matthew 5 14 19 makes sense matt 5 17 think jesus came abolish law prophets come abolish , fulfill jesus lived jewish law however , promises prophets came fulfill prophecies fully obey god 's purposes verse 18 says truly say , heaven earth pass away , smallest letter stroke shall pass away law , accomplished key verse imho last phrase jesus , fulfillment law , accomplished law supposed accomplish jesus say fulfillment law , , unless i'm mistaken , heaven earth yet passed away mistaken \? , even assuming one gloss portion word jesus , really think accomplished \? verse 19 whoever annuls one least commandments , teaches others , shall called least kingdom heaven whoever keeps teaches , shall called great kingdom heaven taken context jesus teaching jewish people living lives law , makes sense n't jesus say jew annuls v 19 \? saying jesus' recorded words mean nothing gentiles \? really saying jesus spoke jews \? jesus n't mention name , mean n't speaking \? read words jesus , think speaking someone \? general , appears jesus responding criticism must received away law jesus' intent said jesus fulfillment law saying mean away law \? come earth live law lived fulfill promises made god people way back eve gen 3 15 serpent bruise heel , bruise head 15 \( jps \) put enmity woman , offspring shall strike head , shall strike heel 15 \( nrsv \) put enmity woman , offspring strike head , strike heel 15 \( kjv \) put enmity thee woman , thy seed seed shall bruise thy head , thou shalt bruise heel looks like translation taken liberties word \? jesus appeared away law honor traditions men equal law god regularly locked horns religious leaders day would conform rules , god 's law matthew passage jesus defending dedication law defending almost entire sermon mount \( matt 5 7 \) dedicated helping jewish people understand true intent law , sweeping away clutter introduced traditions helping jewish people \? galatians 3 23 26 , paul describes relationship jesus law way 23 faith came , kept custody law , shut faith later revealed 24 therefore law become tutor lead us christ , may justified faith 25 faith come , longer tutor 26 sons god faith christ jesus believe says christ revealed , law served 's purpose , e tutor lead us christ , , longer tutor law fulfilled christ said would using interpretation paul argument clear words jesus \? god , author old law , christ man , jesus , personality therefore , old law new testament \( last testament jesus \) based moral principles makes sense many principles old law expressed christianity expressed \? care define bit better \? hand , law fulfilled 's purpose \? heaven earth gone away \? go \? accomplished , example revelations \? explain please christians relate god christ , law , also makes sense new practices new established represent mysteries new relationship e baptism representing christ 's death , burial , resurrection \( rom 6 3 8 \) , lord 's supper memorial sacrifice \( cor 11 26 \) , sunday day worship resurrection \( matt 28 , acts 20 7 \) , interpretation paul versus clear word jesus see problems \? heaven earth go away \? accomplished \? ok , 's one christian 's explanation n't claim issues completely settled even mind welcome christians offer alternatives please excuse long posting thanks interest read far
acs ucalgary ca \( irving \) subject 's next \? mormons jews \? nntp posting host acs3 acs ucalgary ca organization university calgary , alberta lines 22 would someone kind enought document exact nature evidence bd 's without reference hearsay would also like know past record etc based solid media reports reason asking evidence last night larry king live called cult expert interviewed australia claimed evidence led original raid admission , true , raises nasty possibility government acted good faith , believe , faulty evidence also raises possibility self proclaimed cult experts advising giving ver poor advice years ago anson david bromley published strange gods great american cult scare \( beacon , boston , 1981 new anti cultists new religions sage , beverly hills , 1980 books suggested possibility tragic results self proclaimed cult experts ever taken seriously perhaps diagnosis cult movement needs investigating light waco tragedy
mls panix com \( michael siemon \) subject part n't understand \? organization panix public access unix , nyc lines 44 1993apr24 midway uchicago edu eeb1 quads uchicago edu \( e elizabeth bartley \) writes certainly see opposing amen n't require opposing moment silence people proposing moment silence sham sneak prayers , must opposed hell prayers public schooling \? ask question devout christian 'll back anybody else besides see vicious circle \? guarantee people want school prayer n't going back ca n't even manage get quiet moment kids pray silently kids bloody well pray god damned time want nothing , heaven earth , government principal 's office , prevent way deal especially prayer silent \( bursting yisrael prayer might construed disruptive audible \) \) one ever prevented praying public school ! hardly even prevented study hall thought better someone posting uchicago address manage say nonsense without shame \? muslim students might complaint , prevented setting proper prayer times specified qu'ran jews would probably like opportunity daven whatever else require , appropriate times see complaining \( though muslims jews case christian ever heard able make \) christian insistence public , universal , enforced moment prayer h h h h h nothing inquisition american context offensive gospel christ michael l siemon say gods , sons mls panix com high , nevertheless shall die like men , fall mls ulysses att com like prince psalm 82 6 7
mls panix com \( michael siemon \) subject part n't understand \? organization panix public access unix , nyc lines 65 1993apr24 midway uchicago edu eeb1 quads uchicago edu \( e elizabeth bartley \) writes certainly see opposing amen n't require opposing moment silence already responded one dimension , cause make another , independent reply problem moment silence even handed way allowing religion amongst students public schools noted , muslims need moment silence order perform prayers required muhammad \( least orthodox \) jewish prayer also requirements addressed , fact , highly selective bias towards christian prayer moment silence shit especially bizarre christian prayer need stuff may pray totally time \( extent , true muslims jews well intend first paragraph characteristic forms prayer religions need special times behavior , cannot undertaken without observer able taking note \) christian may pray , time silently without trace activity evident others may may true religious traditions amongst us certainly , tend forms prayer would evidence differences american protestant mainstream religion moment silence allow one tradition n't need , special place set aside public schools nothing christian prayer requires public forms , , , anything else visible outside world christian student may \( probably \) pray times day , without anyone else knowing may also true non christians otherwise moment silence would still difficult jews gather daven , muslims find mecca engage prescribed forms course christians thing therefore , provision nothing disguised attempt encourage luckily , strong jewish presence country \( , christian , revere jewish teachers public schools \) , growing muslim presence well hope political forces consequent prevent imposition christian forms non christians far see \( christian \) nothing moment silence campaign attempt use public social pressure force children adhere pattern biased towards christianity christian , must protest coercion 's worth , suspect coercion really targeted non christians yet another case failure amongst christian parents making children , want public schools teach cannot manage teach , despite opportunity world taught children pray , need moment silence school managed teach , moment give michael l siemon say gods , sons mls panix com high , nevertheless shall die like men , fall mls ulysses att com like prince psalm 82 6 7
organization city university new york a54si cunyvm bitnet subject merlin , mithras magick 93111 195217a54si cunyvm bitnet ss 113 apmaths uwo ca lines 25 article ss 113 apmaths uwo ca , ss apmaths uwo ca \( sultan \) says article 93111 195217a54si cunyvm bitnet a54si cunyvm bitnet writes stuff mithras deleted oh , b day 25 dec ahem thought celebrated romans time mithras connected \? also heard romans large solar festival day day , 3 days winter , could notice change shadows sure sun indeed returning fact , remember latin phrase \( sp ! \) associated ca n't say certain , since ca n't locate master holiday list think 2 weeks however charles hope a54si cunyvm a54si cunyvm cuny edu government reporters media
subject merlin , mithras magick a54si cunyvm bitnet organization city university new york lines 41 article ss 113 apmaths uwo ca , ss apmaths uwo ca \( sultan \) says article 93111 195217a54si cunyvm bitnet a54si cunyvm bitnet writes stuff mithras deleted oh , b day 25 dec ahem thought celebrated romans time mithras connected \? rome attack , sent advice oracle , said worship cybele 'll saved , cybele quintessential goddess , son lover , attis yucky idea ask ok book says , society \( turkey \) worshipped 1st black stone \( mecca ring bell maybe \? \? \? \? \) carried rome save hannibal gets interesting romans called great mother \( magna mater \) , could reason many mary statues europe black , prob connected 've got mecca , 3rd cent ad supreme goddess lyons , france attis formed pine tree worshiped 25 mar rome ecstatic cult , priests wore drag , worked dance order initiate , lived lives women wore make jewelry whole bit wow primitive know goes india \( else \? \) thing meditation maybe , forget 's book \) course , weird russian romanian 18th cent xian cult kinds self , forget name charles hope a54si cunyvm a54si cunyvm cuny edu government reporters media
cutter gloster via mind org \( cutter \) subject kill sword , must killed sword distribution world organization gordian knot , gloster , ga lines 36 sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) writes find extremely talk politically incorrect actions , forget actual tragedy think , imagine eight month old son dying flames kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net reached point society certain crimes heinous merely accused one considered guilty deemed natural rights much less civil rights among drug abuse , sexual perversion , political today accused koresh sex infants accused number differing crimes \( \) last two months , first time heard one heard child abuse somewhat stronger fairly obvious koresh hiding behind children considering apocalyptic dread , believed enough american people 's inherent goodness believe protected truly amazing people 60 days ago never heard branch davidian believe suicidal , crazy , child abuser danger others based solely government said remember people awful lot loose found screwed n't much lose david koresh followers lost society stands murder one heinous crimes cutter gloster via mind org \( chris \) jobs easy person n't holt 's law
cs mcgill ca \( jeffrey chance \) subject peace run '93 nntp posting host binkley cs mcgill ca organization mcgill university , montreal , canada lines 134 welcome peace run 're invited join global relay run help light way peace run 's new spirit nineties spirit oneness , growing belief possibility true global peace goal sri oneness home peace run simple bring spirit forward concrete way , transform reality lives every year , thousands men , women children 70 nations passing flaming peace torch hand hand join together relay run virtually circles globe political cultural boundaries , go nation nation across mountains , jungles deserts carrying message brotherhood humankind person holds runs peace torch lights path follow time peace torch changes hands , flame oneness burns little brighter one day shine hearts minds every individual earth making history three peace runs since 1987 achieved historic break middle east , landmark run crossed egyptian israeli border europe , precedent setting run linked eastern western europe russia united states , mexico canada , entire cities dedicated cause world peace poland , peace torch blessed pope john paul ii speaking one world leaders , celebrities peace run support leaders world presidents , prime ministers , religious leaders , sports figures entertainment personalities message spread half billion people though newspaper reports , magazine articles radio tv broadcasts , including pbs , mtv nbc 's today show happy support peace run justice , peace reconciliation world must know god wants us live brothers sisters , members one family , human family , god 's family archbishop desmond , nobel peace prize winner works peace run 1993 started five relay new york city saturday april 17 , various points lead opening ceremony outside united nations dag building , runners around world gathered fourth lighting peace torch , peace torches transported seventy countries series concurrent international cross country relay runs including united states , canada , japan , australia , russia eastern western europe smaller runs take place philippines , mexico , israel , south america , egypt elsewhere africa distance covered 31 , 000 miles peace run wil much inspire hearts stimulate minds support , participate , witness , hear event carl lewis , six time olympic gold 's behind peace run sponsored sri marathon team , international running organization believes sports powerful instrument promoting world peace year team puts hundreds athletic events , including several world class , , dozens countries peace run inspired global peace ambassador sri , written extensively peace , offered hundreds free peace concerts met countless world figures advance cause international harmony run managed peace runs international , non profit organization based united states take step peace peace runs 1987 , 1989 1991 attracted nearly half million participants 're expecting even people join peace run '93 also join run carrying peace torch steps , blocks miles come cheer runners carry torch community also join local celebrities government officials one thousands welcoming ceremonies scheduled along 70 nation route inner support important 're runner , time go , dedicate run cause world peace next step make one peace information contact peace runs international 161 44 normal road , ny usa tel 718 291 fax 718 291 peace run canada street halifax , nova scotia tel 902 425 1174 fax 902 420 phone number address peace run office town country , reply message e mail
netcom com \( john w morris \) subject right \? organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 48 stuff deleted message god words , right might god words , right might god granted gift life whether sinner saint words , , , position argue one must killed note say god god alone worthy judge , jury executioner called carry duties worthy words , better god wants , else ! god impose rules us \? tell god really god god question creator \? doubt god 's certain situations , claim know better solution \? would playing role god \? words , game , made rules , know whats good 'll play game way careful , make god spoiled little deity ca n't way takes ball goes home mention naw ca n't right , makes sense john morris netcom com san diego , ca opinion ,
kcochran nyx cs du edu \( keith justified ancient cochran \) subject kind loving god ! ! x disclaimer nyx public access unix system run university denver denver community university neither control responsibility opinions users organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept lines 50 article 1993apr21 ra royalroads ca mlee post royalroads ca \( malcolm lee \) writes jesus' comments christians follow ot deleted clarify earlier quote god 's laws originally written israelites jesus changed fact making law applicable people , jews gentiles could part kingdom heaven saving grace god never said law made obsolete jesus exodus 31 12 17 many people put death working sabbath \? anything , clarified law quote made following verses , jesus takes several portions law upon law giving clearer meaning god intended 'll notice , also reams pharisees mucking law contrived interpretations knew every letter law followed heads hearts points righteousness must surpass pharisees order accepted kingdom heaven people pharisees really go way debate number angels dance head pin become legalistic , rule makers religious lawyers practiced letter law never really believed leviticus 17 10 medium rare steak last night \? think agree today 's world , lot modern day pharisees know bible end end believe good head knowledge nothing heart \? leviticus 19 19 wear work friday \? christianity set rules 's lifestyle changes one 's perspectives personal conduct demands obedience god 's 18 1 justify discrimination people live , many others cannot choice respect god respects right god , kcochran nyx cs du edu b \( 0 4 \) c e f g k \( \) r \( \) \( \) tsakc thoughts , posts , ideas , responsibility , beer , pizza ok \? \? \? i'm daddy 's
watson sce carleton ca \( stephen watson \) subject koresh doctrine 4 4 organization carleton university lines 26 question seem fundamentalists \( stephen tice , cotera , joe gaut , et al \) \( apologies 've , 've started reading r since bd disaster know cotera fundy \) defending koresh beliefs example true christianity persecution big bad secular state opinion reported sexual habits \? reports accurate , say quality christianity \? allegations part big cover \? \( remain deliberately neutral cause fire would n't put past koresh torched place hand , propane tank accident story correct , would n't put past fbi try cover ass claiming koresh hope government thorough investigation whole debacle , 'll disappointed heads n't roll authorities seem botched original raid , matter fire , guilty either serious , reckless endangerment \) steve watson k watson sce carleton ca carleton university , ontario opinion opinion assert \( opinion ! opinion \) somebody touched making everything new burned life like bolt blue somebody touched know bruce
bskendig netcom com \( brian kendig \) subject rob lanphier organization starfleet headquarters san francisco lines 78 n't get , \? brian lpl arizona edu \( brian ceccarelli 602 621 9615 \) writes brian k , please step aside get run bk truck turn around look bk look ! healthier take look oncoming truck bk explain trucks exist turn around run bk wo n't like hiking tomorrow tuesday blind fool ! choose ignorance \? nothing lose look look , certainly lose life want see squashed road bk life lose rather look besides , truck running harm way , really open mind think discussion like happily picking side road bc dancing double yellow broken line come play highway ! \? bc highway put people must work towards fulfilling purpose bc look , highway several generations look , story actually created divine ! several people actually saw elvis bless ! bc look , going come , \? bc probably think picking fun well , 're wrong blazes get silly idea 're supposed playing highway \? 'll get killed ! bc better killed highway live empty life besides , 're asking pointless questions know really want playing highway 're denying want get run , fine , 'd much rather enjoy , please bc shun like \? creator highway flatten n't see light come join ! well , 's gonna way , maybe want get far highway bc incoherent quite familiar righteous brian c , n't see \? believe god \( \) real , even \( b \) beneficial fact , believe religion imaginary , carried extremes , harmful would like help see shortcomings , perhaps someday finally become strong enough see elaborate lie , kept alive elite priesthood keep masses properly influences please offer argument 's convincing n't believe 'cos n't want everything 've said far could apply equally religion believe real one \? \( note saying 's one promises eternal life something like n't answer question , unless show \( \) religion promises eternal life \( b \) true eternal life must reality \) brian kendig je ne suis fait comme aucun bskendig netcom com de ceux que j'ai vus j'ose croire n'etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent meaning life si je ne vaux pas mieux , au moins je suis autre ends rousseau
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization sgi lines 51 distribution world nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article horus ap mchp sni de , frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes article 8mo fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes quite different saying employing force people immoral , period unfortunately , time time obliged immoral thing reasons self preservation , bear moral consequences since statements , intents purposes , say effectively thing , serious \? two statements , one says use force given situation moral , says moral say effectively thing \? yes , tag unfortunately , , intents purposes saying thing delete unfortunately tell two statement say effectively thing save everyone couple trips round loop , please notice obliged use force preserve self choose preserve self , point pacifism would say two statements , one saying x moral saying x immoral \? would decided two statements x moral x immoral actually conflict , say effectively thing prescribe one pretty good indicator case n't prescribe things , lead one precisely thing , either statements doublespeak , none might lead thing , difference motivates pacifism obviously n't lead pacifists thing 's true could formulate pragmatic belief minimum force still pacifist minimum 0 , great one always trying get close 0 force possible belief immoral , , still tending pacifism n't think use force immoral , minimise use \? jon
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization sgi lines 22 distribution world nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article 1993apr21 st andrews ac uk , nrp st andrews ac uk \( norman r paterson \) writes article 8mo fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes article 1993apr19 st andrews ac uk , nrp st andrews ac uk \( norman r paterson \) writes well , , i'm claiming moral system absolute jon list references stretching alpha centauri deleted jon thought impress references ! ok , n't claim absolute moral system claim objective one \? 'll assume answer yes , apologies 've spent two solid months arguing thing objective moral system exists jon
salem pangea stanford edu \( bruce salem \) subject ancient references christianity \( albert sabin \) organization stanford univ earth sciences lines 7 nntp posting host pangea stanford edu article c5ztju fkx news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) writes nt tossed info jesus realize normally tossed contains miracles , reasons \? tossed source , would regarded unbiased independant \?
pharvey quack kfu com \( paul harvey \) subject good jesus died \? organization duck pond public unix 1 408 249 9630 , log 'guest' 1993apr21 9999 organpipe uug arizona edu netcom com 1993apr22 organpipe uug arizona edu lines 19 article 1993apr22 organpipe uug arizona edu brian lpl arizona edu \( brian ceccarelli 602 621 9615 \) writes end perfect either never perfect name one person , young old , past present , deem perfect \? krishna 20 \( miller \) self abiding heart creatures beginning , middle , end 32 \( miller \) beginning , middle , end creations , arjuna sciences , science self dispute 41 \( miller \) whatever powerful , lucid , splendid , source fragment \( 42 \) use much knowledge , arjuna \? stand sustaining entire world fragment 32 \( miller \) time grown old provide names perfect people one insufficient
ash sumex aim stanford edu \( david ash \) subject theory david koresh originator dash xenon stanford edu organization computer science department , stanford university lines 15 theory koresh seriously wounded initial died day 9 siege day 11 siege rose dead periodically appeared followers fbi next 40 days living someone 's risen dead n't easy , 's father pet could attest , 40 days shot burned place ground consistent facts , n't \? anyone actually see koresh day 9 day 11 \? david w ash profits man keeps eternal soul ash sumex aim stanford edu could lived life full home \( 415 \) 853 forgiven end anyway \? david merritt , k red shark
brian lpl arizona edu \( brian ceccarelli 602 621 9615 \) subject good jesus died \? organization lunar planetary laboratory , tucson az lines 21 brian kendig says since felt reasonably sure , decided start analyzing bible closely catalyst break faith , though long difficult effort brian kendig also declares christ means chosen , person chosen fulfill prophesies old testament bring new age hope spiritual growth mankind christ greek messiah messiah means annointed one means rub oil , e major prophet daniel uses word messiah daniel chapter 9 closely analyze bible \? looks n't get past first word catalyst break faith priests interpreted bible \? ever bereans paul 's teachings acts 17 \?
trajan cwis unomaha edu \( stephen mcintyre \) subject theists objectivity organization university nebraska omaha lines 82 theist truly objective \? impartial questioning truth scriptures , assume superstition parents questioning \? 've often found case theist stick kind superstition wondering god scriptures 've seen christian , jew , muslim , theists alike assume mothers fathers right aspect god exists , belief search god occasionally , theist may switch religions aspects religion , overall majority keep belief creator behind universe 's existence 've known muslims christians vice versa , 've known christians jewish vice versa , 've even known christians become hindu yet , throughout transition one faith another , 've kept belief form higher \? usually child brought time born , theist brought notion truth kind scripture bible , torah , qur'an , etc told wondrous god wrote \( inspired \) scripture , prophets talked scripture , miracles performed , etc also told question \( children apt \) sin , crime god , lose belief ture 's truth damn one 's soul hell thus , time able read scripture , belief truth ingrained mind seems matter course n't stop child able read , endeavor child right readings scripture , concentrate pleasant readings , gloss worse ones , explain away unexplainable mystery circular arguments , self facts truths , belief , fear hell meat religion child must eat every day doubt , course , means wrath sort , child must learn put away brain matter concerns god considerable effect child , becomes adult , 's taught nearly impossible remove leads ask whether theist truly objective questioning god , hell , heaven , angels , souls , rest , moment , put aside notion god exist look everything unbiased point view \? obviously , theists somewhat , especially presented mythical gods \( , roman , egyptian , etc \) put aside assumption god 's existence question \? stephen atheist libertarian pro individuality pro responsibility jr jazz
psyrobtw ubvmsd cc buffalo edu \( robert weiss \) subject 22 apr 93 god 's promise psalm 34 5 organization university buffalo lines 5 news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host ubvmsd cc buffalo edu looked unto , faces ashamed psalm 34 5
psyrobtw ubvmsd cc buffalo edu \( robert weiss \) subject rw robert weiss orthodox christian \? organization university buffalo lines 86 news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host ubvmsd cc buffalo edu article 93111 byuvm bitnet , librba byuvm bitnet writes rick anderson writes ra robert , keep making references orthodox belief , saying ra things like held \( cf kermit thread \) ra exact body theology drawing call orthodox \? orthodox compound word comes \( straight , true , right \) \( opinion , doctrine , teaching \) use orthodox refer 'right teaching ' right teaching derived letting god speak us bible reading simple truths scriptures using bible interpret bible ra holds luke meant said meant \? think apparent reading scriptures pertinent luke 23 43 records christ 's promise repentant thief hung adjacent cross truly say , today paradise later christ rose dead ascended heaven \? christ heaven sunday , could repentant thief \? answer lies location paradise jesus died apparently paradise exalted heaven easter day jesus refers middle story rich man lazarus abraham 's bosom , godly beggar lazarus carried angels \( luke 16 19 31 \) thus abraham 's bosom referred place souls redeemed waited till day christ 's resurrection yet lifted heaven may well section hades \( hebrew sheol \) , reserved believers died faith would admitted glorious presence god heaven price redemption actually paid even none would precede presence jesus back glory father doubtless infernal paradise souls jesus repentant thief repaired died friday afternoon sunday , risen christ first appeared mary magdalene \( john 20 17 \) two companions \( matthew 28 9 \) , presumably took glory inhabitants infernal paradise \( including abraham , lazarus , repentant thief \) read ephesians 4 8 concerning christ high , led captivity captive gave gifts unto men verse 9 continues mean also descended lowest parts earth \? e , hades verse 10 adds descended ascended heavens presumably led whole band liberated captives hades \( e , whole population paradise \) glory heaven ra whenever personal interpretation biblical passages ra challenged , response seems one needs merely ra look bible order see truth , ra see biblical things differently \? think characterization faulty whenever questioned , usually give reason see things differently , please , put forward valid difference , discuss seem seeing notion difference one views bible somehow legitimate , except , course , stuff glean put forward contrary view perhaps discussion topic something put forward , without putting forward something else discuss , dismiss put forward giving credence alleged views yet put forward simply contentious ra simply assume one really ra understands \? believe something drawn scripture wrong , please , show scripture wrong simply stating views proof show scripture go robert weiss psyrobtw ubvms cc buffalo edu
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject good jesus died \? organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 47 article 1993apr21 organpipe uug arizona edu , brian lpl arizona edu \( brian ceccarelli 602 621 9615 \) wrote kent , accusing evil things jesus accusing accusing accusing everyone , everyone world guilty whether one sees light seen light nothing whether evil things regardless hmm , seems core christianity , feel guilty , 's single personality save universal guilt feeling brian , tell secret , n't feel guilty , mistakes , regret , however 've never huge guilt feeling hanging shoulder things happen wrong , try learn mistakes go clear indication need certain personality type order believe adjust certain religious doctrines personality type opposite , easily attached certain world view system see jesus 's point \? christians perfect perfect want come light jesus see problems lives , like sight ugly thing see far fallen jesus 's perspective think want know really ignorant \? think brian kendig wants know \? think want know \? ego verses truth , choose \? know n't know everything frankly speaking n't care , life fun anyway recognize i'm perfect , hinder healthy inspiring life humans subscribe notion nice thing finally shake huge burden , shoulders feel far relaxed ! cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject rob lanphier organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 23 article 1993apr22 organpipe uug arizona edu , brian lpl arizona edu \( brian ceccarelli 602 621 9615 \) wrote hope brian look see ramifications truck coming towards hope brian want step way fear , though , brian instead choose glue middle highway , certainly get run chooses , chooses , nothing beyond change mind choice moment , brian n't gotten even far still point want look sure moves eyeball appease , head turn around see entire picture far satisfied glimpse mountains distance problem imagine inside huge wall , unable see reality clearly case relativity plays big role concerning looking opposite frames reality cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject kind loving god ! ! organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 20 article 1993apr21 ra royalroads ca , mlee post royalroads ca \( malcolm lee \) wrote think come abolish law prophets come abolish fulfill tell truth , clarify earlier quote god 's laws originally written israelites jesus changed fact making law applicable people , jews gentiles could part kingdom heaven saving grace god never said law made obsolete jesus n't jesus changed rules game \( see quote \) , paul cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject kind loving god ! ! organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 18 article 1993apr21 ra royalroads ca , mlee post royalroads ca \( malcolm lee \) wrote say scripture man knows hour coming , even angels heaven father \? dk trying play god breaking seals dk killed many followers could btw , god save children heaven , far better place know \? faith seems faith tool available emotional purposes due tragedy maybe fills need , however i'm getting tired see children dying pain sudan due lack food , assuming god takes sufferers heaven painful death cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject universe black holes , 2000 years organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 13 nntp posting host punisher caltech edu kv07 iastate edu \( warren vonroeschlaub \) writes let 's say drop marble black hole races , ever faster , towards even horizon , thanks space caused excessive gravity , object approaches event horizon travel integrating curve gives time reach event horizon infinity math says nothing enter black hole correct event horizon center black hole merely distance escape velocity equal speed light , event horizon finite radius keith
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject universe black holes , 2000 years organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 23 nntp posting host punisher caltech edu salem pangea stanford edu \( bruce salem \) writes zeno 's paradox \? zeno 's paradox resolved showing integration infinite series decreasing terms sum finite result nothing get black hole escape velocity speed light n't know time prevent matter getting event horizon one explain matter gets well , suppose probe emitting radiation constant frequency sent towards black hole got closer event horizon , red shift would keep increasing period would get longer longer , would never stop observer would observe probe actually reaching event horizon detected energy probe would keep decreasing , would n't vanish exp \( \) never quite reaches zero guess probably n't make things clear , hopefully get general idea maybe keith
carl sol1 gps caltech edu \( carl j lydick \) subject 's next \? mormons jews \? organization hst wide field planetary camera lines 18 distribution world reply carl sol1 gps caltech edu nntp posting host sol1 gps caltech edu article juts ccc amdahl com , agr00 ccc amdahl com \( anthony g rose \) writes n't necessarily agree pat robertson every one placed judgement seat eventually judged done failed earth god allows people choose want worship i'm sorry , ! ever read first commandment \? apparently n't first commandment n't appear forbid worshipping gods yahweh 's got top totem pole , though carl j lydick internet carl sol1 gps caltech edu nsi hepnet sol1 carl disclaimer hey , understand vaxen vms 's get paid understanding astronomy purely amateur level \( \) unless i'm saying directly related vax vms , n't hold organization responsible related vax vms , try hold responsible , organization nothing
carl sol1 gps caltech edu \( carl j lydick \) subject 's next \? mormons jews \? organization hst wide field planetary camera lines 19 distribution world reply carl sol1 gps caltech edu nntp posting host sol1 gps caltech edu article vi agate berkeley edu , isaackuo skippy berkeley edu \( isaac kuo \) writes hmm police strategy bursting weapons drawn , clearly marked officers yelling police repeatedly used every day bust drug houses idea awe suspects submission surprise display order avoid gun fight knocking , 's sad necessity many cases since suspects attempt escape even fight usually strategy works n't , would n't used commonly , would \? often used convoy carrying brigade visible miles reaches place 's searched \? carl j lydick internet carl sol1 gps caltech edu nsi hepnet sol1 carl disclaimer hey , understand vaxen vms 's get paid understanding astronomy purely amateur level \( \) unless i'm saying directly related vax vms , n't hold organization responsible related vax vms , try hold responsible , organization nothing
colby bu bio bu edu \( chris colby \) subject another assertion macroevolution organization animal lines 22 article 1993apr21 rambo atlanta dg com wpr atlanta dg com \( bill rawlins \) writes macroevolution observed action chris colby 's example \( \) \( due respect chris \) plant example gave macroevolution put another way , incredibly huge number events necessary bring non life homo sapiens many directly observed \? special creation observed action bill rawlin 's assertions man created present form count creation put another way , incredible amount species planet many species directly observed created god gods \? bill rawlins wpr atlanta dg com chris colby email colby bu bio bu edu 'my boy , ' said , 'you descended long line determined , , microscopic champions every one ' kurt vonnegut galapagos
colby bu bio bu edu \( chris colby \) subject gospels , josephus , etc origins organization animal lines 17 article 1993apr21 rambo atlanta dg com wpr atlanta dg com \( bill rawlins \) writes tree full holes \( please show intermediate forms reptile bird \) ignorant never heard \? bill rawlins wpr atlanta dg com special creation theory nothing holes please show species existence god never seen chris colby email colby bu bio bu edu 'my boy , ' said , 'you descended long line determined , , microscopic champions every one ' kurt vonnegut galapagos
scharle lukasiewicz cc nd edu \( scharle \) subject branch athiests cult \( rawlins debunks creationism \) reply scharle lukasiewicz cc nd edu \( scharle \) organization univ notre dame lines 82 please excuse length post , personal reasons , must go length article ctron news ctron com , king ctron com \( john e king \) writes scharle lukasiewicz cc nd edu \( scharle \) writes information , checked library congress catalog , list following books francis hitching believe 've discovered parallel many discussions fundies , main tactic discredit sources barclay 's claims bogus mckenzie 's arguements sham , oehler position specious , 's ideas fiction , darby fraud , howard counterfeit , 's claims branch athiests zealots following claims bogus , gorman argument 's sham , 's position specious , stanley 's ideas fiction , durant fraud , counterfeit , 's claims witnessing founding new major religion really along \? ! deleted perhaps would instructive see original post say article 1993apr22 news nd edu , scharle lukasiewicz cc nd edu \( scharle \) writes article ctron news ctron com , king ctron com \( john e king \) writes kv07 iastate edu \( warren vonroeschlaub \) writes neither , webster 's ever heard francis hitchings \? please answer well known phrase paleontologist author neck giraffe quote taken pg 103 jack information , checked library congress catalog , list following books francis hitching earth magic neck giraffe , darwin went wrong psi connection world atlas mysteries followed signature extremely careful posting say anything factual made judgement hitching quality quotation attributed read books listed \( although glimpse briefly earth magic , saw nothing would care comment \) solely response inquiry warren hitching , assertion paleontologist know whether paleontologist claim know anything , except listing publications however , get decided impression included among branch atheists basis post impression mistaken , please let know otherwise , let know implications offensive , would certainly appreciate clarification posting tom scharle scharle room computing center scharle lukasiewicz cc nd edu university notre dame notre dame , 46556 usa
mprc troi cc rochester edu \( price \) subject part n't understand \? organization university rochester rochester , new york lines 36 nntp posting host troi cc rochester edu panix com mls panix com \( michael siemon \) writes 1993apr24 midway uchicago edu eeb1 quads uchicago edu \( e elizabeth bartley \) writes certainly see opposing amen n't require opposing moment silence people proposing moment silence sham sneak prayers , must opposed hell prayers public schooling \? ask question devout christian uh oh , michael typed hell capitalized boot ! peter nyikos explain 're real christian ! 'll back anybody else besides see vicious circle \? guarantee people want school prayer n't going back ca n't even manage get quiet moment kids pray silently kids bloody well pray god damned time want nothing , heaven earth , government principal 's office , prevent way deal especially prayer silent \( bursting yisrael prayer might construed disruptive audible \) \) one ever prevented praying public school ! hardly even prevented study hall bzzt ! sorry michael nyikos inquisition pointed hell bound one mildly pun revealing oneself admitting masturbation well , i'm shocked ! mp
parker cen uiuc edu \( robert parker \) subject tieing abortion health reform clinton nuts \? organization university illinois urbana lines 237 exuptr exu ericsson se \( patrick taylor , sounding board \) writes article news cso uiuc edu parker cen uiuc edu \( robert parker \) writes read whole thing 's pretty hot stuff apparently n't read whole thing continue miss point skinner csrd uiuc edu \( gregg skinner \) writes parker cen uiuc edu \( robert parker \) writes deletions soapbox 's ok pay legal procedures gov't money , let 's get government pay counselling provides abortion alternatives let 's get government pay adoption fees let 's get government pay things make abortion necessary \? certainly legal procedures counselling provides alternatives abortion would biased counselling provides abortion information providing counselling give woman help finding comfortable adoption funding idea may good one idea \? way hell involved going good skiing resort give paying abortions believe wrong , wo n't pay without gripe i'm making unlawful 'd rather spend money saving lives bunch investigations court hearings crap spending time know 's really cleaning abortion stuff \? lawyers say let 's pass laws make adoption cheaper , easier , infinitely supportive birth mother let 's eradicate stigma , reduce cost , pay price life making adoption easier birth mother may help reduce abortion , eliminate need abortion done mother ca n't care child n't feel good giving strangers abortion done mother afford pregnancy soapbox person right anything interfere rights another person cool enough 'll trouble defining terms statement getting people agree example , perceive right participate feel murder n't think government , either hand , since trouble proving murder , right stop someone choose , either legal means harassment course , persuasion allowed , watch line persuasive second part definition person simplistic explanation person member society normal adult human beings good examples people children two years old people well simple way determining conversation actually complicated , desire spend time would take explain read thread bodily autonomy important \? explanation justification definition authoritative enough us \? surely understand definitions equal right consideration \? please justify human automatically makes something valuable includes unborn government refused fun abortions \( due qualms minority population \) would pay far delivery babies whose mothers wanted abortion , could afford one , baby also require care 18 years true needs fixed part problem clinton medical program get underway , let address , cheaper long run save lives later productive members society least , plan works , guaranteed become productive members society even many years future burden someone , society also matter mother forcing carry pregnancy term critical time life could prevent productive member society actually , refering minority objects abortion , object federal funding admit say clearly , apologize refuse fund abortions remove choice women , add additional burden society reason really flawed logic would like saying born disfigured face want cosmetic repair discriminatory cannot make choice , must pay person right make choice imply legally otherwise someone else foot bill sic choice ok , look 's like footing bill maybe take choice maybe take choice b maybe take choice c ca n't afford one take choice 'd pay , say 5 take choice b would cost us 20 take choice c cost us 20 hell lot next 18 years one sounds realistic us willing pay \? people happen like choice people happen like choice c \( paying , \) c around paid years even though means spend lot money , ca n't conscience refuse pay around perfectly legal , n't funded past going funded people object n't like idea tax money going pay choice could refuse fund women ca n't afford choices forced take choice b c , cost us money us n't see reason money spent effect removing personal choice women alternative fund mother chooses also still fund b even c mother chooses however , women certainly choose , save us 15 otherwise would spend taxes raised fund choice object , lowered fund choice legal , despite objections \( actually , taxes really going go , i'm sure would point amount saved area help another like massive debt \) disagree give us reasons given abortion legal right abortion supported majority population justifiable refuse abortions women afford , simply require even greater funds delivery would force upon refuse pay taxes remove choice women object legal medical procedure \? say objection procedure irrelevant uncle bill n't pay breast , , etc abortions \? 's elective surgery ! procedures mention cost money savings procedures would required road without \( fact , could additional costs road \) quite different case abortion argument , young girl kill baby making affordable refusing make alternative affordable , guilty removing choice withholding funds ! think poor girl pregnant abortions federally funded , 's gonna choice plans given kind double talk really makes ill bullshit refusing make alternative affordable refused pay expensive choice birth , statement would make sense case , n't clinton tried block funding pre natal care delivery \( left health care plan \) , would certainly object would also quite surprised pro choice ha ! pro abortion really fits case yes , probably definition , reasons think 're gonna fund one choice , fund , least stupid fuck ! want fund choices one wants fund choices imho fund adoption choice right , \( meaning throwing money cutting costs , esp legal costs \) wo n't need abortion anymore humble opinion still wrong even easy adoption , still fact pregnancy takes several months months young woman could need getting education \( like finishing high school , entering college , finishing college , getting job things much harder take break months things massive impact future productivity \) right life fetus person conversation ah let 's kill mentally well people n't like , since ca n't conversation conversation mentally even though personally may refuse conversation people n't like , still possible others conversation possible anyone conversation fetus biologically independent son age 6 weeks breastfed , would take bottle biologically independent mean \? 'll happy punch definition full loopholes still biologically independent least extent consumed nutrients digested normal manner breathed air fetus hand , gets 's nutrients already digested mother gets oxygen mother well biologically independent awareness questionable aha ! admit questionable yet willing kill , even may aware suggest think viewpoint awareness part makes member society minimal conceivable requirement , yet many people seem think something without awareness could still important enough justify true member society keep asking , still n't seen real justification life non sentient creature worth suffering sentient \( n't read every response threads 've asking , yet , 'll see see one later \) experiences real world make personality also true quite unix programmers anyone program unix lot experiences real world rob
drake cs cmu edu \( drake \) subject rfd misc taoism nntp posting host seismo soar cs cmu edu organization school computer science , carnegie mellon lines 58 article 1993apr21 679 megatek com tims megatek com writes let us limit n't limit something , discussion degenerates big amorphous hmm \? imposing limits something useful gives something go beyond seems questions properly fall category general metaphysics would prefer misc taoism deal closely topics works closely associated least semi orthodox taoism established classic works definitely included works like chia 's argued ! tend bit critical taoism especially tend suggestion orthodoxy classics special place tao think neo taoism excluded get group \( mean humpty dumpty taoism , taoism means whatever poster says means \) alt taoism could also refuge debates taoism really means speculations sexual alchemy , etc rather debate taoism really means suggesting take someone else 's word work \? 'd rather , thank 's happening term taoism becoming completely polluted trivialized like words magic , alchemy , zen , etc , writers word mean whatever want seen new age books entitled tao , , everything else whereas , course , clear idea word means \? tell tao \? \) comments ideas \? look forward seeing balance , say let misc taoism rip let chips fall may wonderful idea gets filled college asking tao sex failure people post groups choose define failure way define believe flesh , seeing hearing feeling miracles , part tag miracle walt whitman
brian lpl arizona edu \( brian ceccarelli 602 621 9615 \) subject good jesus died \? organization lunar planetary laboratory , tucson az lines 32 article blaze cs jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \( ken arromdee \) writes said everyone world means everyone world , including children old enough speak , let alone tell lies jesus says everyone , cannot support referring group people somewhat smaller everyone 's right everyone even infants cannot speak yet even little child stick finger light socket even little child want changed even little child fight nap time far jesus saying everyone certain ruler asked jesus , good teacher , must inherit eternal life \? call good \? jesus answered one good except god alone ken , book romans states born sinners grow sinner sin sinners common mistake , even christian circles , think reverse true surely grew look like parents , inherited appearance , also sin nature goes human even though new born innocent , sinful nature surely manifest explicity gets older surely grows hair head teeth within mouth , show signs innate sin rebelling daddy loud proclamation
frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization siemens nixdorf ag lines 61 distribution world nntp posting host d012s658 ap mchp sni de article fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes article horus ap mchp sni de , frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes article 8mo fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes quite different saying employing force people immoral , period unfortunately , time time obliged immoral thing reasons self preservation , bear moral consequences since statements , intents purposes , say effectively thing , serious \? two statements , one says use force given situation moral , says moral say effectively thing \? yes , tag unfortunately , , intents purposes saying thing delete unfortunately tell two statement say effectively thing save everyone couple trips round loop , please notice obliged use force preserve self choose preserve self , point pacifism k , got concede point , though word obliged strongly implies one must sometimes use force would give distinction mention , however right , pacifist would even go say , unfortunately , etc would say two statements , one saying x moral saying x immoral \? would decided two statements x moral x immoral actually conflict , say effectively thing prescribe one pretty good indicator case n't prescribe things , yes , fair enough , though confuse things saying one obliged real meaning one never obliged lead one precisely thing , either statements doublespeak , none might lead thing , difference motivates pacifism obviously n't lead pacifists thing 's true could formulate pragmatic belief minimum force still pacifist minimum 0 , great one always trying get close 0 force possible belief immoral , , still tending pacifism n't think use force immoral , minimise use \? n't think immoral , period frank o'dwyer 'i'm hatching that' odwyer sse ie hens , evelyn conlon
subject albert sabin rfox charlie usd edu \( rich fox , univ south dakota \) reply rfox charlie usd edu organization university south dakota computer science dept nntp posting host charlie lines 17 article titan ucs umass edu , cma titan ucs umass edu \( colin \) writes started reading newsgroup n't following thread i'm curious thread get started albert sabin changed something else \? sabin initiated religious discussion \? colin variation within thread variation times great occurred albert sabin common ancestor several threads , separate topic , subscribed recently albert sabin existed time , clue origins maybe answer might also point evolution thus albert sabin evolved religious discussion probably unexplainable rich fox , anthro , usouthdakota
physik uni kl de \( thomas kettenring \) subject branch athiests cult \( rawlins debunks creationism \) organization fb physik , universitaet kaiserslautern , germany lines 23 article ctron news ctron com , king ctron com \( john e king \) writes scharle lukasiewicz cc nd edu \( scharle \) writes information , checked library congress catalog , list following books francis hitching believe 've discovered parallel many discussions fundies , main tactic discredit sources possibly parallel stems tending use bad sources anyway , n't think similarity rather shallow \? 're looking surface , way argumentation perhaps go little deeper try find difference , example , find whether find real science done hitching ca n't , admit attempt quoting authority \? thomas kettenring , 3 dan , kaiserslautern , germany johannes , greatest european philosopher 9th century , said reason authority conflict , reason given preference n't sound reasonable , 'll accept
physik uni kl de \( thomas kettenring \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization fb physik , universitaet kaiserslautern , germany lines 23 article darkside osrhe uoknor edu , bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) writes 've seen creation vs evolution several times question either point view derived direct observation either scientific \? wonder whole controversy concerned consequences truth rather truth sides seem hold philosophical outcome , ca n't help wondering came first 've pointed elsewhere , view human nature makes believe way knowing objectively knowledge inherently subjective , context , would take stand based actually know true want true tell difference \? translation paragraph uninformed evidence evolution please send talk origins faqs subject thomas kettenring , 3 dan , kaiserslautern , germany johannes , greatest european philosopher 9th century , said reason authority conflict , reason given preference n't sound reasonable , 'll accept
nanci ann miller nm0w andrew cmu edu subject theists objectivity organization sponsored account , school computer science , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 65 nntp posting host po3 andrew cmu edu reply 1993apr25 1326 news unomaha edu trajan cwis unomaha edu \( stephen mcintyre \) writes theist truly objective \? impartial questioning truth scriptures , assume superstition parents questioning \? think theist truly objective throws notion god definitely exists starts scratch prove scriptures whole truth person would longer theist usually child brought time born , theist brought notion truth kind scripture bible , torah , qur'an , etc told wondrous god wrote \( inspired \) scripture , prophets talked scripture , miracles performed , etc also told question \( children apt \) sin , crime god , lose belief ture 's truth damn one 's soul hell thus , time able read scripture , belief truth ingrained mind seems matter course 're missing something people convert non theism theism brought non theist household \( n't statistics many though would interesting thing know \) think religion crutch people naturally afraid unknown unexplainable people n't want believe die , dead , finished nothing else religion kind nice fantasy religion also describes things n't know universe \( things science yet described \) also gives people feeling security one thing everything ok watched higher power high psychological attraction quite people people willing put discrepancies holes belief system gains think 's kind useless try hard convert theists atheism happy fantasy feel people happy \( ca n't accept fact people would rather accept harsh reality running \) anyway , i'm getting kind carried away point theism n't ingrained child 's mindset person grow theist \( although happens far often \) theism designed attractions atheist libertarian pro individuality pro responsibility jr jazz nanci know \( sure \) author quote , please send email \( nm0w andrew cmu edu \) one million , 7 half nyc
nrp st andrews ac uk \( norman r paterson \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality oxymoron keywords blessed siding salesman organization st andrews university , scotland lines 10 article anarky tch org anarky tch org \( \) writes took someone long figure \? siding \? keep seeing references something railway lines , perhaps \? e mail reply please , 'll never find otherwise norman
arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \( ken arromdee \) subject christians law \? clarification pe organization johns hopkins university cs dept lines 13 article mailer cc fsu edu dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu \( darius lecointe \) writes jesus jew , christian christian means someone believes divinity jesus , safe say jesus christian first day christmas truelove served leftover turkey ! second day christmas truelove served turkey casserole made leftover turkey days 3 4 deleted flaming turkey wings ! pizza hut commercial \( tlu gic bait \) ken arromdee \( arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \)
towfiq justice uucp \( mark towfiq \) organization towfiq system reply fcrary ucsu colorado edu 's message tue , 20 apr 1993 06 30 24 gmt subject 's next \? mormons jews \? x mailer gnu emacs 18 58 2 2 murdoch acc virginia edu 1993apr20 ucsu colorado edu distribution usa lines 32 tue , 20 apr 1993 06 30 24 gmt , fcrary ucsu colorado edu \( frank crary \) said pmy vivaldi acc virginia edu \( pete yadlowsky \) writes pmy anyway , 've often wondered business followers christ pmy would weapons fc n't christ tell disciples arm selves , shortly fc \? \( believe exact quote along fc lines , something sell buy sword \) purse fc certainly , christ said , fc think come send peace earth came fc send peace sword come set man variance fc father , mother fc matthew 10 34 35 yes , said , sword jesus brought sword word god , divides believe , , even right family mark mark towfiq business urgent towfiq com 1 508 392 \( fax \) towfiq justice medford us 1 617 488 earth one country , mankind citizens
arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \( ken arromdee \) subject good jesus died \? organization johns hopkins university cs dept lines 17 article 1993apr25 organpipe uug arizona edu brian lpl arizona edu \( brian ceccarelli 602 621 9615 \) writes even though new born innocent , sinful nature surely manifest explicity gets older ah , admit newborns innocent \? cannot say everyone sinner way top get one claim newborn sinner despite committed sins , rather odd first day christmas truelove served leftover turkey ! second day christmas truelove served turkey casserole made leftover turkey days 3 4 deleted flaming turkey wings ! pizza hut commercial \( tlu gic bait \) ken arromdee \( arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \)
cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) subject ancient references christianity \( albert sabin \) organization university illinois urbana lines 35 morrow stanford edu salem pangea stanford edu \( bruce salem \) writes article c5ztju fkx news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) writes nt tossed info jesus realize normally tossed contains miracles , reasons \? tossed source , would regarded unbiased independant \? brings another something never understood asked got interesting responses , somehow n't seem satisfied would nt considered good source might literary historical question , studied history always looked firsthand original sources write papers topic mr x , looked see mr x wrote anything topic group , look group , etc topic mr x , mr x write anything , \( barring theistic response bible divinely inspired ca n't adequately argue \) , would n't look people ate , worked , walked , talked , etc \? someone event would n't better reporter someone heard second hand \? guess n't firsthand better second hand know , bias , winners writing history , n't principle firsthand best still apply \? mac michael cobb wo n't raise taxes middle university illinois class pay programs champaign urbana bill clinton 3rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu nobody explain everything anybody g k chesterton
mandtbacka finabo abo fi \( mats andtbacka \) subject burden proof reply ray engr latech edu 's message 21 apr 1993 20 34 49 gmt organization unorganized usenet postings uninc x news reader vms news 1 24 lines 29 note talk origins removed crossposting , business going first place 7hg aurora engr latech edu ray engr latech edu writes make statement , god exists , loves , etc way insist believe , place burden proof upon , 're achieving anything either n't want argue point 're stating , bother stating \? insist god n't exist , place burden proof upon \? read \( alt atheism \) faq find give proofs , give testimony beliefs well enough feel interested , might even listen respond proofs attempt disprove beliefs wo n't task impossible , n't first place even bother change disprove beliefs \? mats strong \? andtbacka disclaimer \? 's great young insane !
bevan cs man ac uk \( stephen j bevan \) subject rw robert weiss orthodox christian \? 1993apr23 organpipe uug arizona edu organization department computer science , university manchester lines 9 reply brian lpl arizona edu 's message 23 apr 93 17 01 01 gmt article 1993apr23 organpipe uug arizona edu brian lpl arizona edu \( brian ceccarelli 602 621 9615 \) writes rick , read bible \? written plain english decide \? would imply singular , yet many translations bible , many differ choice wording hence lead different interpretations btw also read koran , vedas etc , plain english translations available decide
bevan cs man ac uk \( stephen j bevan \) subject good jesus died \? 1993apr21 9999 organpipe uug arizona edu netcom com 1993apr22 organpipe uug arizona edu organization department computer science , university manchester lines 7 reply brian lpl arizona edu 's message 22 apr 93 21 31 42 gmt article 1993apr22 organpipe uug arizona edu brian lpl arizona edu \( brian ceccarelli 602 621 9615 \) writes , n't matter evil things good things meaningless end anyway go rob bank go tell someone dislike dirty rotten slime bag 's restraining \? generally ,
bevan cs man ac uk \( stephen j bevan \) subject rob lanphier 401 netcom com 1993apr23 organpipe uug arizona edu organization department computer science , university manchester lines 7 reply brian lpl arizona edu 's message 23 apr 93 22 59 33 gmt article 1993apr23 organpipe uug arizona edu brian lpl arizona edu \( brian ceccarelli 602 621 9615 \) writes brian , n't offend decide reject jesus christ wish would make decision learn jesus rejected buddha \? , really learn buddha making decision \?
bevan cs man ac uk \( stephen j bevan \) subject davidians compassion juts ccc amdahl com organization department computer science , university manchester lines 5 reply agr00 ccc amdahl com 's message 22 apr 93 04 18 19 gmt article juts ccc amdahl com agr00 ccc amdahl com \( anthony g rose \) writes surely equating david koresh christianity \? two comparable er , \?
thyagi cup portal com \( thyagi morgoth nagasiva \) subject cybele organization portal system \( tm \) distribution world anarky tch org 93111 195217a54si cunyvm bitnet ss 113 apmaths uwo ca 93115 cunyvm bitnet lines 73 charles hope writes rome attack , sent advice oracle , said worship cybele 'll saved , cybele quintessential goddess , son lover , attis yucky idea ask ok book says , society \( turkey \) worshipped 1st black stone \( mecca ring bell maybe \? \? \? \? \) carried rome save hannibal response relation name \? paragraph seems indicate might understanding islam founded remains goddess cult two many muslims would like hear gets interesting romans called great mother \( magna mater \) , could reason many mary statues europe black , prob connected 've got mecca , 3rd cent ad supreme goddess lyons , france attis formed pine tree worshiped 25 mar rome ecstatic cult , priests wore drag , worked dance order initiate , lived lives women wore make jewelry whole bit primitive know goes india \( else \? \) thing meditation maybe , forget 's book \) course , weird russian romanian 18th cent xian cult kinds self , forget name response 'd love get details references exploration issue extended brief examination man woman , , university new mexico press , 1991 probably interesting things say 've yet procure details references ecstatic cults rome , india , russia romania \( christian \? \) exhibit type , male female \( though expect mostly former found \) thanks interesting posts , charles love ! ! ! ! come like shall whole law abyss thyagi nagasiva \( \) \( \) thyagi abyss com house 871 dr san jose , ca 95125 divination web telnet seismo soar cs cmu edu
ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) subject ancient references christianity \( albert sabin \) organization university virginia lines 12 actually mr x something gain claims account events would respected case point , resurrection claiming resurrection actually happened early preachers able convert many christianity however , read mathew 27 38 \( \? \) case resurrected saints walked around jerusalem appeared many people would realize historians \( josephus one \) would reported happened fact bible speaks events great magnitude would noticed taken fact reported historians could mean bible contains many made stories
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject waco information accuracy organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 14 article crcnis1 unl edu , e p unl edu \( edgar pearlstein \) wrote example fbi report several bodies found rubble bullet wounds local coroner , independent fbi , far found bullet wounds ! according cnn last night \( saturday 4 24 93 \) found bullets two corpses , head \( would indicate bullets aimed killing humans \) cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject good jesus died \? organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 30 article 1993apr23 organpipe uug arizona edu , brian lpl arizona edu \( brian ceccarelli 602 621 9615 \) wrote hmm , seems core christianity , feel guilty think see coming kent jesus n't view guilt like modern colors feelings nothing guilt feelings arise state guilty feeling guilt exclusive feelings reaction guilt jesus talking guilt state , reaction let give example ever made mistake \? ever lied someone \? even little white lie \? ever claimed know something really n't know \? ever hated someone \? ever selfish \? guilty one \? answer course , yes guilty period jesus getting big surprise feelings even enter picture consider jesus 's use word guilt court uses 've done things , 've , learned lesson two far aspirin , good talk wife , one week vacation cured need group therapy strange religions ! cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject good jesus died \? organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 26 article 1993apr25 organpipe uug arizona edu , brian lpl arizona edu \( brian ceccarelli 602 621 9615 \) wrote christ greek messiah messiah means annointed one means rub oil , e major prophet daniel uses word messiah daniel chapter 9 closely analyze bible \? looks n't get past first word catalyst break faith priests interpreted bible \? ever bereans paul 's teachings acts 17 \? brian , mean well versed ancient greek , hebrew aramaic order understand core christianity \? hope catholic , christian upbringing based teachings luther , one core messages basically n't need know latin order learn salvation btw , statement would also eliminate 99 5 christians world , well cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject good jesus died \? organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 20 article 1993apr25 organpipe uug arizona edu , brian lpl arizona edu \( brian ceccarelli 602 621 9615 \) wrote article blaze cs jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \( ken arromdee \) writes said everyone world means everyone world , including children old enough speak , let alone tell lies jesus says everyone , cannot support referring group people somewhat smaller everyone 's right everyone even infants cannot speak yet even little child stick finger light socket even little child want changed even little child fight nap time oh boy , get small baby figure much brain power first 6 months cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject good jesus died \? organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 21 article blaze cs jhu edu , arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \( ken arromdee \) wrote article 1993apr25 organpipe uug arizona edu brian lpl arizona edu \( brian ceccarelli 602 621 9615 \) writes even though new born innocent , sinful nature surely manifest explicity gets older ah , admit newborns innocent \? cannot say everyone sinner way top get one claim newborn sinner despite committed sins , rather odd would also order sinning 2 month old baby get , ask help jesus somehow find little bit cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
ddavis cass ma02 bull com \( dave davis \) subject christian meta ethics organization bull world wide information systems , inc lines 117 distribution na nntp posting host cass ma02 bull com russell turpin , wont , raised interesting issues struggle christian texts christians unfortunately , seems hoping simplicity available lukewarm stew detects may well inevitable result divine mixing bunch losers humanity also unfortunately \( perhaps \) deadline two weeks , responsibility prevents , good conscience , writing considered response fully entering , let say , briefly two commandments rules merely rules vague practically devoid meaning point , net also still read books , pursued throughly , critique religion philosophy commandment love neighbor viewed , part , reminding man god cannot act ultimate responsibility theological statement worthy dr turpin \( dd \) may wear black robe geneva yet ! \) indeed , many traditions present interpretation believers supposed interpret loving one 's neighbor following various rules , relying god make things come right , precisely would wrong man assume ultimate responsibility , confronted good sounding goo means whatever reader wants mean requires assumption interpretations equally valid , way reasonably distinguishing among would n't make assumption n't think reasonable assumption say interpretation twisted \? many passages bible straightforward reading show christian god behaving way michael , , others , read 'the christian glasses among things imply nt informs ot , even point points ot \( ceremonial dietary laws \) explicitly nt texts drive russell turpin 's point , one needs begin nt texts \( probably matthew , probably damnation \) \( trying help \) \) part , discover , moves post mls radical christian take gospel seriously , michael , conservative christians also take gospel seriously differentiates way interpret gospel russell turpin 's 'no' misplaced , say inappropriate michael 's self description much govern equation radical liberal , seems implied russell turpin wrong radical conservatives possible \( sadly lacking numbers present \) thomas radical , even though conservative ways st francis radical , similarly many examples needed \? mls n't \( \) christians like mls tell something christianity \? michael 's question gets heart matter \( two hearts , metaphor mixed , extraterrestrial \) \) russell turpin \( earlier post \) said michael \( michael 's theological positions , actually \) n't tell much christianity dean responds \( time gently \) 'what mean \? ' direct , perhaps , would 'what could possibly mean \? ' implied rhetorical effort , separate michael tradition , failure michael tradition idea tradition n't include , change idea tradition ! irony nothing christianity per se michael use support cause lesbians gays one answer staying general issue \? i'm side fence \( michael \) issue , yet ' nothing ' hideous overstatement one verse enough refute 'll offer two , paul \( people \) 'in jesus christ neither male female ' \( galatians 3 28 n't quote single verses rule , n't carry head \) ' nothing shall separate us glory god ' \( roughly , romans \) russell would promise convert based verses , 'd promise get full context requires \) \) short , extra christian principles make michael 's christianity beneficial , suspect would beneficial , perhaps , without filtered christian interpretation conclusion follow , even short , argument goes surprising logical dave davis , ddavis ma30 bull com opinions activities alone wild beasts trapped cages fierce christians julian apostate , c 361
f gautjw ccsvax sfasu edu subject koresh doctrine 4 4 organization stephen f austin state university lines 75 article watson mariner sce carleton ca , watson sce carleton ca \( stephen watson \) writes question seem fundamentalists \( stephen tice , cotera , joe gaut , et al \) \( apologies 've , 've started reading r since bd disaster know cotera fundy \) defending koresh beliefs example true christianity persecution big bad secular state opinion reported sexual habits \? reports accurate , say quality christianity \? allegations part big cover \? thank , steve refreshing someone accuse christian hope enough evidence get conviction certain mean fundy part term fundamentalist wide variety uses refer actually believe jesus messiah son god wish follow way , plead guilty matter think roman circus lions satisfied emperor , long struggle , sensed crowd tiring gave thumbs respect previous comments david koresh , urge examine previous posts believe mistakenly assume defense right personal beliefs right express others implies agreement theology actually understand little details branch davidian teachings regret many hung aspect tragic events past days think sex life interest federal government course hillary says molesting infants must true even though allegations fall jurisdiction federal government state local matters thoroughly reviewed local level proper authorities successful charge ever american law , innocent americans presumed innocent proven guilty least 's powerful machine appear beast therefore deserving every ill fates might bring upon evidence trickles twenty one children , left building early days siege , carefully examined qualified authorities evidence physical sexual abuse none found , one attorneys met davidians several times conflagration , reported children seemed well adjusted showed sign abuse ultimately , steve , think heart david koresh quite unimportant today benevolent hands wise merciful judge one day surely judge us withhold judgment david koresh defer one knowledge meanwhile , let 's clean mess left earth keep happening sending strong message government respect inalienable rights people serves joe gaut \( remain deliberately neutral cause fire would n't put past koresh torched place hand , propane tank accident story correct , would n't put past fbi try cover ass claiming koresh hope government thorough investigation whole debacle , 'll disappointed heads n't roll authorities seem botched original raid , matter fire , guilty either serious , reckless endangerment \) steve watson k watson sce carleton ca carleton university , ontario opinion opinion assert \( opinion ! opinion \) somebody touched making everything new burned life like bolt blue somebody touched know bruce
mathew mathew mantis co uk subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization mantis consultants , cambridge uk x newsreader rusnews v1 02 lines 24 frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes specifically , 'd like know relativism concludes two people grotesquely disagree \( \) right \( b \) one wrong , sometimes \( though perhaps rarely \) pretty good idea \( c \) one wrong , never information , make best guess really must make decision \( \) idea right moral judgement meaningless \( implying whether peace better war , e g , meaningless question , need discussed correct answer \) \( e \) something else short , positive assertion would nice whose point view would like know relativism concludes \? one people involved argument , third person observing \? mathew
nntp posting host ifi uio joakimr ifi uio \( joakim ruud \) subject universe black holes , 2000 years organization dept informatics , university oslo , norway lines 22 originator joakimr ifi uio article ctron news ctron com , king ctron com \( john e king \) writes kv07 iastate edu \( warren vonroeschlaub \) writes let 's say drop marble black hole races , ever faster , towards even horizon , thanks space caused excessive gravity , object approaches event horizon travel integrating curve gives time reach event horizon infinity math says nothing enter black hole n't variation achilles turtle paradox , states achilles could never possibly overtake turtle \? one deal man convinced acting according god 's , jokke fore believes favour stabbing back \? voltaire
rwd4f poe acc virginia edu \( rob dobson \) subject 2000 posts , say thread dead \? organization university virginia lines 5 unfortunately legalize freedom
rwd4f poe acc virginia edu \( rob dobson \) subject kill sword , must killed sword organization university virginia lines 30 article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) writes article murdoch acc virginia edu , rwd4f poe acc virginia edu \( rob dobson \) wrote also unhappy \( actually , suspicious \) fbi dismissing hand chances might accidentally set blaze mean , guess supposed believe ramming modified tanks walls building injecting toxic gases building routine procedures , way anything could go wrong core point , still , 19 children died , mr koresh could opened door asked children go happened might fbi , atf , president clinton , satan , pepsi coke anything else , ca n't avoid fact one single action would saved small children dreadful painful death 1 \) well , mr koresh allowed children adults leave compound course siege didnt children leave \? dont know , certainly havent heard answers 2 \) yes , one simple non action , ie attacking compound modified tanks , would prevented tragedy bet blamed move people deaths occurred adjacent row houses philadelphia , government dropped firebomb , right \? legalize freedom
frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization siemens nixdorf ag lines 17 nntp posting host d012s658 ap mchp sni de article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) writes frank , unless n't realize , involved debate various opinions , entity frame opinion expressed think n't need state dreadful r word , 's sometimes correct say morality objective , \? , could hardly wrong , without dragging word part , say relativism true , 's opinion folk get heated , belief relativism merely matter taste \? \( fair , calm , get impression 's n't care notions objectivity flavour right \? \) frank o'dwyer 'i'm hatching that' odwyer sse ie hens , evelyn conlon
vlsi uwaterloo ca \( \) subject koresh 's \? organization university waterloo distribution na lines 15 dear netters wondering accident koresh heard different explanations without explanation opinions believes , please kindly tell 1 \) koresh talking \? \( message \) 2 \) main reason government went war koresh \? \( say due tax payment , \) thanks advance historical explanation
nntp posting host ifi uio joakimr ifi uio \( joakim ruud \) subject right \? organization dept informatics , university oslo , norway lines 30 originator joakimr ifi uio recently , 've asked rather interesting question right god lives \( always assuming god , course ! \) \? \? infinite wisdom , made perfectly clear n't live according rules , burn hell well , right god make desicion \? let 's say , sake argument , god creates every one us \( directly indirectly , n't matter \) happens , first creates us , turns us lose well , n't ask created let 's make analogue scientist creates unique living creature \( happened , even patented ! ! ! \) , right expect behave certain matter , die \? god impose rules us \? tell god really righteous god likes us believe \? christians flock sheep , unable otherwise follow rest \? hmmmmmmmmmmmm want point sarcasm , mean one deal man convinced acting according god 's , jokke fore believes favour stabbing back \? voltaire
thyagi cup portal com \( thyagi morgoth nagasiva \) subject ceci 's rosicrucian adventure \) organization portal system \( tm \) distribution world lines 112 tony writes let 's start name rosicrucian took long time come conclusion difference member rosicrucian body rosicrucian say met 'rosicrucians' mean members group calls rosicrucian least observation suggests \) response makes much sense also true religions difference member group people call actually social groups tend make important requirements belonging find ideal described holy texts religions interpreted similar ways one could presume core every religion huxley 's great secret core mystical tony 'd prefer would stated front lectorium rosicrucianum , may confused , readers newsgroup , rosicrucian order amorc based \( usa jurisdiction \) san jose , ca rc org members \( last time looked \) course , members necessarily mean best response certainly true n't know groups called 'rosicrucians' n't associate amorc sure , 've heard golden dawn rosae crucis relation western esoteric groups , n't heard 'rosicrucians' 'll admit bias live san jose tony 'll trust tell lecture class whatever presented amorc , unlikely would impression , e , 'd probably positive impression likely negative one , imho response may slightly 've met rosicrucians couple friends amorc stories 've heard slight contact 've give hope 'd received kind warm welcome still like think people involved relationships \( , religion , etc \) deep pain hope heal within tony curious know 3 rc \( usa \) claim non sectarian response 'd like know least addresses call 'rosicrucians' especially like masons , require member god \? tony n't see nothing fundamentally wrong us containing something divine yes n't like phrases like eternal bliss either ! \) response let alone us something divine tony btw , read intro letters lrc mail free charge response addresses , phone numbers groups \? i'm networking thanks love ! ! ! ! imagination important knowledge albert einstein thyagi nagasiva \( \) \( \) thyagi abyss com house 871 dr san jose , ca 95125 divination web telnet seismo soar cs cmu edu
subject rw robert weiss orthodox christian \? librba byuvm bitnet organization brigham young university lines 66 article acsu buffalo edu , psyrobtw ubvmsd cc buffalo edu \( robert weiss \) says orthodox compound word comes \( straight , true , right \) \( opinion , doctrine , teaching \) use orthodox refer 'right teaching ' right teaching derived letting god speak us bible reading simple truths scriptures using bible interpret bible thanks etymology lesson , actually know orthodox means 're avoiding question , however , body theology version orthodoxy come \? seem simply saying whatever understand bible say orthodox ra holds luke meant said meant \? think apparent reading scriptures pertinent obviously mistaken , since many , many people read bible many agree point , robert , interpretation correct orthodox one \? ra whenever personal interpretation biblical passages ra challenged , response seems one needs merely ra look bible order see truth , ra see biblical things differently \? seem seeing notion difference one views bible somehow legitimate , except , course , stuff glean put forward contrary view perhaps discussion topic something put forward , without putting forward something else discuss , dismiss put forward giving credence alleged views yet put forward simply contentious whole string began response attacks mormonism one attacking personal beliefs , tendency present orthodoxy n't much care believe bible n't present personal understanding orthodox one ra simply assume one really ra understands \? believe something drawn scripture wrong , please , show scripture wrong simply stating views proof show scripture go never attacked specific beliefs 's approach , remember \? stating people depend solely bible views indeed proof bible interpreted many ways , whole point along specifics belief business n't pretend anything personal , careful crying heresy based private belief system robert weiss psyrobtw ubvms cc buffalo edu rick anderson librba byuvm bitnet
mathew mathew mantis co uk subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization mantis consultants , cambridge uk x newsreader rusnews v1 02 lines 74 frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes article 930421 rusnews w165w mantis co uk mathew mathew mantis co uk writes frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes presumably means moral systems better others \? \? manage without objective frame reference \? goes faster , bullet snail \? come answer einstein proved n't objective frame reference \? einstein proved anything , oh , yes may agree premises , proved may apply reality \( thing exists \) , certainly proved something ca n't answer , answer general true got one similarly , moral relativist judge one moral system better another every possible circumstance , however , preclude judging one moral system better another specific set circumstances preclude set moral relativists collectively judging moral system , set circumstances agree even statement assumes objective reality independent beliefs eh \? could explain \? statement talking \? weasel word use describe frame reference , n't objective reality values \? i'm sorry , ca n't parse objective reality values could try \? objective reality values values real even face disagreement still n't quite see 're trying say assume values mean moral values , yes \? case , mean real \? real moral value , opposed unreal one \? saying moral systems better others , opinion , get infinite regress sorry , way infinite regress \? looks extremely finite get justification saying moral system terrorist inferior man peace sorry , 's provide justification asserting moral system terrorist inferior man peace ca n't provide justification works possible circumstances similarly , provide justification asserting bullets move faster justification wo n't hold possible frames reference , hold almost frames reference ever likely saying make , 's according premise , mine n't think agree saying make point view according premises , unless argument invalid may indeed make point view , never claimed fact , n't even claim exist enough point view mathew
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject rw robert weiss orthodox christian \? organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 20 article 1993apr23 organpipe uug arizona edu , brian lpl arizona edu \( brian ceccarelli 602 621 9615 \) wrote also understand read bible cover cover , examining book within , cross comparing , etc come conclusions robert weiss rick , read bible \? written plain english decide i'm curious know christians ever read books based critique religion , classical text age reason paine , myth maker sometimes good know enemy , want serious research understand sides , solely one right one cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject rob lanphier organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 43 article 1993apr23 organpipe uug arizona edu , brian lpl arizona edu \( brian ceccarelli 602 621 9615 \) wrote kent , regards information contained bible \( original context thread \) , brian kendig inside huge wall brian inside bible information contained therein outside wall brian kendig proves sad fact absurd things says example , get pit , cease exist bible n't say n't clue even jesus said hell one example looking discussion would say operate reference frame 's inside outside , two polarized views statements inside bible , things still clear , n't indications instance jobs placed old testament , one books actually talks satan jobs much line rest ot books , 's chance someone added book later group ot scriptures sense , kent , sensing reality different matter brian , relativity play big role perceive true , depends vantage point since read bible , brian kendig shows n't , narrower perspective mine \( least respect knowledge bible \) proposing brian , brian , come take look vantage point brian replies , rather thank content besides , vista stinks meanwhile , brian ignores facts never realize shared plateau brian stands operates way around well understand mind atheist , agnostic , case , radical relativist n't understand underlying concepts , pretty hard continue dialogue i'm perfect christian , however 20 years christian teaching provided pretty good picture christian mind frame cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject davidians compassion organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 17 article juts ccc amdahl com , agr00 ccc amdahl com \( anthony g rose \) wrote hard time understanding christianity knows word compassion christians , think actions today would produce good picture religion \? surely equating david koresh christianity \? two comparable always option sect causing harm , label cult something else cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject kind loving god ! ! organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 28 article 1993apr24 ra royalroads ca , mlee post royalroads ca \( malcolm lee \) wrote article sandvik sandvik kent apple com , sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) writes seems faith tool available emotional purposes due tragedy maybe fills need , however i'm getting tired see children dying pain sudan due lack food , assuming god takes sufferers heaven painful death children fed , whose fault \? plenty food tables others starve \? god gave us earth manage n't think 're good job consolation suffering children received kingdom heaven never thirst never hunger agree points , i'm glad hear subscribe notion secular humanism , humans helping humans instead hoping possible ex solution ! faith , could always use constructs anger sorrow cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject 's next \? mormons jews \? organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 19 article tredysvr tredydev unisys com , tom tredysvr tredydev unisys com \( tom albrecht \) wrote article 1993apr20 ra royalroads ca mlee post royalroads ca \( malcolm lee \) writes armed teeth christian rely physical weapons defend christian rely faith intelligence faith intelligence tell breaks house night knife kill 2 wallet , 357 considerably persuasive words faith 357 far stronger faith god providing miracle followers interesting , david god , could n't use lightning instead semi automatic rifles \? seems even n't trust cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject christians law \? clarification pe organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 15 article blaze cs jhu edu , arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \( ken arromdee \) wrote article mailer cc fsu edu dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu \( darius lecointe \) writes jesus jew , christian christian means someone believes divinity jesus , safe say jesus christian would label rather original christian , pauline christian , though sad original church lost game cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
cfaehl vesta unm edu \( chris faehl \) subject burden proof organization university new mexico , albuquerque lines 23 distribution world nntp posting host vesta unm edu article 7hg aurora engr latech edu , ray engr latech edu \( bill ray \) writes note followups go alt atheism , talk religion misc , talk origins ! deleted make statement , god exists , loves , etc way insist believe , place burden proof upon insist god n't exist , place burden proof upon \? give proofs , give testimony beliefs respond proofs attempt disprove beliefs say x statement give authority fact , respond asking n't obligated say anything , intent convince x statement true , yes , burden proof upon merely giving testimony beliefs , egotist would care \? surmise , burden proof upon wish us believe say true chris faehl cfaehl vesta unm edu
cj195 cleveland freenet edu \( john w redelfs \) subject 's next \? mormons jews \? organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 21 reply cj195 cleveland freenet edu \( john w redelfs \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu , deceive everone thinking latter day saints undergone undue persecution years believing religion , perhaps would like tell us happened mountain meadow massacres killings done blood atonement doctrine , command brigham young \? n't tell us , tony \? i'm sure think know adds lot casper n't frustrate consider many intelligent , thoughtful people prepared mormon missionaries rant \? talk , better look nothing makes truth look better background falsehood sic 'em , tony ! john w redelfs , cj195 cleveland freenet edu opinions tentative pending data
bd fluent dartmouth edu \( brice \) subject 's next \? mormons jews \? reply bd fluent dartmouth edu distribution na organization fluent inc , lebanon nh lines 18 reply hertz njit edu 's message 21 apr 93 17 19 31 gmt hertz njit edu \( david \) writes someone government actually believed koresh knew seven seals apocalypse , ordered invasion 'd dead unable talk public everything need know seven seals already bible knowledge seals koresh could unless fbi kill publishers bible , would seem story seven seals would bound leak assuming moment fbi believed bible afraid seven seals , would also know god one open seals , little prophet like koresh
cj195 cleveland freenet edu \( john w redelfs \) subject 's next \? mormons jews \? organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 17 reply cj195 cleveland freenet edu \( john w redelfs \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu words faith 357 far stronger faith god providing miracle followers interesting , david god , could n't use lightning instead semi automatic rifles \? seems even n't trust cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net hands defender , 357 miracle god helps help n't ever heard one \? john w redelfs , cj195 cleveland freenet edu opinions tentative pending data
bitnet subject new religion forming sign distribution world , rpi , alt organization north dakota higher education computer network lines 3 give 's new yet another interpretation adam eve story \? michael
aurora cc monash edu au \( andrew bulhak \) subject new religion forming sign organization monash university x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 33 jim \( isaac rpi edu \) wrote article rpi edu , weinss rs6101 ecs rpi edu \( stephen andrew weinstein \) writes let begin saying think world 's first religion use net major recruitment medium therefore , even religion take , founding members important historically method soliciting membership eventually become common kibology \? chopped liver \? kibo summed saying kibology religion , also candy mint floor wax personally think like spam clear really check alt religion kibology , kibo 's religion slightly older , makes sense slack yes ! send money kibo pay worship \( funny , n't seem paid \) live , heart empire state jim , computer operator rpi , troy , ny , usa understand causes , sympathize motivations , details war self e mail rpi edu mts rpi edu andrew bulhak yoyo cc monash edu au david koresh fried sins monash uni , clayton , victoria , australia
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject ancient references christianity \( albert sabin \) organization sgi lines 16 distribution world nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article c5ztju fkx news cso uiuc edu , cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) writes nt tossed info jesus n't 's usually treated reliable single , source information person evidence realize normally tossed contains miracles , reasons \? mean say contains opened mine damned thing happened special way \? jon
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject ancient references christianity \( albert sabin \) organization sgi lines 19 distribution world nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article news cso uiuc edu , cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) writes morrow stanford edu salem pangea stanford edu \( bruce salem \) writes article c5ztju fkx news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) writes nt tossed info jesus realize normally tossed contains miracles , reasons \? tossed source , would regarded unbiased independant \? brings another something never understood asked got interesting responses , somehow n't seem satisfied would nt considered good source contradicting facts , example jon
rcanders nyx cs du edu \( mr nice guy \) subject knock , 's next \? mormons jews \? x disclaimer nyx public access unix system run university denver denver community university neither control responsibility opinions users organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept lines 83 isaackuo skippy berkeley edu \( isaac kuo \) states reply deleted article knock searches , arrests hmm police strategy bursting weapons drawn , clearly marked officers yelling police repeatedly used every day bust drug houses idea awe suspects submission surprise display order avoid gun fight knocking , 's sad necessity many cases since suspects attempt escape even fight usually strategy works n't , would n't used commonly , would \? general knock raids preserve evidence , like drugs , flushed toilet standard way arrest violent felon like bank need search preserve evidence surround dwelling order suspect come hands suspect come tear gas used comment bd omitted merely point valid strategy used every day furthermore , n't know substitute strategy capable apprehending potentially dangerous armed suspects suggest method apprehend criminals police always knock guns holstered never arrest suspects allowed inspect officers 's badges \? police apprehending potentially dangerous armed suspects \? far reasonably go identity \? suggest ca n't faked competition \? dangerous method obtain evidence might destroyed warrant served normal way dangerous way arrest anyone cops charging room n't know much safer surround place announce even 've got deadly enemies may pretend cops , 's excuse murder police case bd 's , almost definitely paranoid delusion deadly would pretend cops cops cops identify police officers drug dealers professional criminals aware likelihood arrest also know system works arrested call lawyer , post bail hope plea bargain pull gun shoot cop raid charged first degree murder survive raid drug dealers guns protection customers criminals , shoot cops cops shot knock drug raids criminals n't aware cops knock raids homes occupied non criminals likely end disaster mom pop citizen know committed crime , know anyone breaking house cannot cop done nothing wrong means defend may know criminals cops cops homeowners may die first reports waco stated atf warrant search illegal weapons also arrest warrant illegal weapons found case knock warrant called difficult flush gun toilet atf could surrounded compound marked police car could driven entrance uniformed officers could knocked served warrant usual way happened koresh refused warrant drove cops gun point p g folks would kept quiet rod anderson n0nzo think united states government boulder , co responsible fact bunch rcanders nyx cs du edu fanatics decided kill satellite n0nzo ao 16 slick willie compassionate
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject history texts \( ancient references christianity \) organization sgi lines 17 distribution world nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article 1 p00261 psilink com , robert knowles p00261 psilink com writes date 24 apr 1993 11 53 48 0500 russell turpin turpin cs utexas edu diaries followers maharishi , formerly oregon , historical evidence confusing bhagwan \( sp \? \) maharishi mahesh yogi chance \? think bhagwan oregon rolls maharishi mahesh yogi founded transcendental meditation flying stuff bhagwan 's group communal , free sex kind thing think , though think let jon
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject koresh doctrine 4 4 organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 25 article 1993apr23 ccsvax sfasu edu , f gautjw ccsvax sfasu edu wrote well , stephen 's study david koresh 's sermon n't bother 's probable careful review stephen done obvious expenditure thoughtful effort would provide additional insight david love god may soul rest peace whether agree various points theology therein , review would likely provide significant insight love god one thing seems apparent even cursory reading koresh 's message portrayed fbi filtered press reports quite possibly friendly , person attorney reported someone stated davidian cult associated christianity well , read four postings , i'm even convinced truly christian nature sometimes makes sense label cult , especially much handle cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
sps mot com \( mark fuller \) subject rw robert weiss orthodox christian nntp posting host 192 55 25 1 organization motorola inc lines 965 article 93111 byuvm bitnet librba byuvm bitnet writes robert , keep making references orthodox belief , saying things like held \( cf kermit thread \) exact body theology drawing call orthodox \? holds luke meant said meant \? whenever personal interpretation biblical passages challenged , response seems one needs merely look bible order see truth , see biblical things differently \? simply assume one really understands \? rick , think safely say , 1 \) robert person understands bible , 2 \) , leadership lds church never let 's consider personal interpretations see much trust put orthodox mormonism , could never confused orthodox christianity one attacks christians , mormon apostle bruce r mcconkie said thrash around darkness trying identify elohim jehovah show relationship promised messiah also said christians wrong believe jehovah supreme deity god father , christ came mortality begotten son mcconkie stated mormons believe today truth matter said elohim father jehovah son thus aware far astray religious gone defining three one god , comes surprise learn thrash around darkness trying identify elohim jehovah show relationship promised messiah even believe jehovah supreme deity whose son came mortality begotten concept god spirit , misinformation gods heaven untrue fact , attested holy writ , elohim father , jehovah son born mortality lord jesus christ , promised messiah \( promised messiah , p 100 \) notice mcconkie said christians wrong three one god belief god spirit understanding elohim jehovah examining mcconkie 's attack validity , shall read statements mcconkie mormon sources concerning words elohim jehovah mcconkie stated chief designation christ preserved us old testament , ancient work published , exalted name title jehovah \( promised messiah , p 367 \) elohim , plural word though , also used exalted name title god eternal father , usage supremacy omnipotence , god gods \( mormon doctrine , p 224 \) agreeing mcconkie question elohim jehovah , apostle james e stated elohim , understood used restored church jesus christ , name title god eternal father , whose firstborn son spirit jehovah begotten flesh , jesus christ \( jesus christ , p 38 \) doctrinal exposition first presidency twelve apostles mormon church states god eternal father designate exalted name title \( articles faith , p 466 \) christ , , state known jehovah \( articles faith , p 471 \) today mormon leaders teach elohim ot refers god father jehovah refers christ mcconkie attacked christians saying jehovah refer father stressed two name titles changed around christ called elohim father called jehovah father elohim , jehovah jehovah christ , christ jehovah one person \( promised messiah , p 111 \) ot kjv bible , hebrew word elohim used refer true god , false gods , judges israel referring true god , elohim translated capital g referring false gods judges israel , translated small g translated four times judges \( exod 21 6 22 8 9 \) , judge \( 1 sam 2 25 \) , twice mighty \( gen 23 6 exod 9 28 \) , angels \( ps 8 5 \) , godly \( mal 2 15 \) , great \( gen 30 8 \) , great \( 1 sam 14 15 \) word jehovah traditional pronunciation yhwh yhvh vowel points taken word many people believe true pronunciation yahweh however , since jehovah rather yahweh word used mormonism , section also use jehovah instead yahweh examine validity claims mormon leaders regarding name jehovah , unlike elohim , never used false gods personal name triune god bible kjv , jehovah rendered primarily lord , sometimes god , rarely lord understand something words elohim jehovah use mormon leaders , shall consider apostle mcconkie 's attack christians believing father jehovah trying prove jehovah refers exclusively christ , mcconkie cited several verses bible verses mcconkie 's interpretation examined see whether right remember , mcconkie said father jehovah elohim first example shall consider involves mcconkie 's interpretation ps 110 1 verse stated spake david tongue touched holy spirit testified , lord said unto lord , sit thou right hand , make thine enemies thy \? \( ps 110 1 \) two lords involved one speaking one greater one making provision triumph glory message contained messianic prophecy \? think ye christ \? lord asked certain detractors toward end mortal ministry whose son \? christ son god someone else \? born divine parent men mortal son mortal father \? descendant david matter great pride jews answered , son david david 's son \? truly , much lord , logic complete , asked , doth david spirit call lord , saying , lord said unto lord , sit thou right hand , till make thine enemies thy \? david call lord , son \? , son david , great king , acting inspiration , calls lord worships \? might add lord , one spake unto david 's lord \? question jesus interpreting words psalm \? saying means ' father said unto son , elohim said unto jehovah , sit thou right hand , mortal ministry raise eternal glory , continue sit right hand forever ' \( promised messiah , pp 101 102 \) \( emphasis added \) agreeing statement mcconkie , following remark mormon pamphlet mormons think christ , p 6 reads lord elohim , father said unto lord jehovah , son \( brackets original \) mcconkie clearly stated elohim father speaking jehovah son psalm however , one looks hebrew word translated lord , becomes apparent either first lord father else father jehovah either way mcconkie wrong psalm reads lord jehovah said unto lord adon , sit thou right hand , make thine enemies thy \( ps 110 1 \) first lord verse jehovah mormonism says christ , father second lord hebrew word adon \( singular , meaning master lord \) first lord father second lord son , father jehovah son adon however , father jehovah mcconkie claimed , first lord jehovah son , , , adon \? obviously father jehovah psalm , son adon another example involves isa 42 6 mcconkie stated following lord called thee righteousness , isaiah quoted father saying christ , hold thine hand , keep thee , give thee covenant people , light gentiles \( isa 42 6 \) \( promised messiah , p 81 \) \( emphasis added \) mcconkie said father speaking christ passage reads lord jehovah called thee righteousness , hold thine hand , keep thee , give thee covenant people , light gentiles \( isa 42 6 \) according mcconkie , lord refers father , thine thee refer christ however , lord speaking jehovah means either mcconkie wrong speaking else father jehovah another example involves ps 22 7 8 verses mcconkie stated psalm says see laugh scorn shoot lip , shake head , saying , trusted lord would deliver let deliver , seeing delighted \( ps 22 7 8 \) fulfillment , jesus hung cross , found words chief priests , scribes elders , said , saved others cannot save king israel , let come cross , believe trusted god let deliver , said , son god thieves also , crucified , cast teeth \( matt 27 41 44 \) \( promised messiah , pp 530 531 \) \( emphasis added \) ps 22 7 8 reads follows see laugh scorn shoot lip , shake head , saying , trusted lord jehovah would deliver let deliver , seeing delighted mcconkie said verses fulfillment jesus hung cross means person verses christ , , lord trusted \? jehovah father another example involves ps 31 13 ps 41 9 regarding , mcconkie stated following reference plots incident lord 's arrest judicial trials prophecy took counsel together , devised take away life \( ps 31 13 \) role judas conspiracies , psalmist says mine familiar friend , trusted , eat bread , hath lifted heel \( ps 41 9 \) \( promised messiah , p 532 \) apostle mcconkie said psalms refer christ 's arrest judicial trials shall first consider ps 31 ps 41 mcconkie quoted verse 13 ps 31 , verse 14 also included give complete understanding matter heard slander many fear every side took counsel together , devised take away life trusted thee , lord jehovah said , thou art god elohim \( ps 31 13 14 \) mcconkie said verse 13 referred jesus christ verse 14 goes tell \( christ \) trusted lord called god elohim mormonism teaches god jesus elohim father verse 14 , however , reveals elohim man jesus jehovah father ps 41 , mcconkie quoted one verse however , two verses considered examination yea , mine familiar friend , trusted , eat bread , hath lifted heel thou , lord jehovah , merciful unto , raise , may \( ps 41 9 10 \) mcconkie stated verse 9 referred judas' role christ 's death since judas familiar friend lifted heel , mine , , , verse 9 must refer christ notice beginning verse 10 change pronoun thou , refers lord \( jehovah \) refer christ used means christ speaking jehovah father verses another example involves mcconkie 's following remark ps 110 4 one great messianic prophecies , spoken mouth david , says lord hath sworn , repent , thou art priest ever order melchizedek \( ps 110 4 \) \( promised messiah , p 450 \) mcconkie admitted messianic prophecy involving christ question , verse refers christ \? lord jehovah hath sworn , repent , thou art priest ever order melchizedek \( ps 110 4 \) lord , jehovah , refer christ \? mcconkie right jesus jehovah , father , lord would refer christ , , one addressed priest forever order melchizedek \? bible reveals one referred jesus christ \( heb 5 8 10 6 20 7 \) therefore , lord \( jehovah \) ps 110 4 father another example involves isa 53 4 12 verses mcconkie stated sacrifice future messiah , isaiah said lord laid iniquities us pleased lord bruise \( promised messiah , p 234 \) \( emphasis added \) mcconkie rightly said verses refer sacrifice future messiah however , failed mention also prove father jehovah verse 6 reads like sheep gone astray turned every one way lord jehovah hath laid christ iniquity us , verse 10 reads yet pleased lord jehovah bruise christ obviously lord laid christ iniquity us bruised god father called jehovah verses remember , mcconkie stated even believe jehovah supreme deity , christ came mortality begotten son called concept misinformation untrue prove mcconkie misinformed believing untruth , two scriptural references \( 2 sam 7 14 ps 2 7 \) examined mcconkie stated following regarding scriptures midst passage clearly messianic , lord says seed david father , shall son \( 2 sam 7 14 \) second psalm , whole also clearly messianic , occurs statement thou art son day begotten thee \( ps 2 7 \) paul quotes statements hebrews 1 5 says prophecies christ would come son god \( promised messiah , p 143 \) mcconkie cited heb 1 5 show 2 sam 7 14 ps 2 7 refer christ would come son god since mcconkie first referenced 2 sam 7 14 , examination , however , along verse 14 , verses 11 13 also included since time commanded judges people israel , caused thee rest thine enemies also lord jehovah thee make thee house thy days fulfilled , thou shalt sleep thy fathers , set thy seed thee , shall proceed thy , establish kingdom shall build house name , throne kingdom ever father , shall son \( 2 sam 7 11 14 \) verses teach lord \( jehovah \) would son , messiah second example mcconkie cited ps 2 7 examination include verse 8 notice lord \( jehovah \) says , thou art son day begotten thee declare decree lord jehovah hath said unto , thou art son day begotten thee ask , shall give thee heathen thine inheritance , parts earth thy possession mcconkie said verses scripture clearly messianic , acknowledged teach christ would come son god willing acknowledge , however , scriptures also teach father jehovah believe jehovah supreme deity whose son jesus christ , begotten , right belief another example involves mic 5 4 verse mcconkie stated following , truly , lord act mortal ministry ! truly , written shall stand feed strength lord , majesty name lord god shall great unto ends earth \( mic 5 4 \) \( promised messiah , p 182 \) \( emphasis added \) according mcconkie , pronoun beginning mic 5 4 refers christ mortal ministry , , lord god \? mic 5 4 reads christ shall stand feed strength lord jehovah , majesty name lord jehovah god elohim shall great unto ends earth obviously lord jesus christ jehovah father referred jehovah elohim another example involves ps 2 2 isa 61 1 verses mcconkie stated following number messianic passages speak lord , anointed \( ps 2 2 \) , signifying chosen one consecrated set apart ministry mission jesus applied passages quoting isaiah 's prophecy lord hath anointed preach good unto meek \( isa 61 1 \) , saying day scripture fulfilled ears \( luke 4 21 \) \( promised messiah , pp 182 183 \) \( emphasis added \) first source mcconkie quoted ps 2 2 reads follows kings earth set , rulers take counsel together , lord jehovah , anointed mcconkie said anointed one christ true , jehovah \? jehovah always christ , anointed one \? obviously jehovah referring god father anointed indeed referring christ second source mcconkie cited isa 61 1 states spirit lord god jehovah upon lord jehovah hath anointed preach good unto meek hath sent bind , proclaim liberty captives , opening prison bound one anointed preach , bind , proclaim , open jesus christ , , one anointed \? verse says lord \( jehovah \) , face problem jehovah refer father , christ , jesus anointed someone , \? mcconkie pointed , jesus applied passages therefore , jehovah anointed christ god father examples could cited show mcconkie mormon leaders wrong say god father jehovah however , enough expose error , mormonism 's claim jesus jehovah , elohim \? true jesus jehovah following scriptures prove fact thus saith lord jehovah king israel , redeemer lord jehovah hosts first , last beside god \( isa 44 6 \) jesus said first last , dead \( rev 1 17 18 \) saith lord jehovah shall look upon pierced , shall mourn , one son \( zech 12 1 , 10 \) behold , christ cometh clouds every eye shall see , also pierced \( rev 1 7 \) lord jehovah thy god , holy one israel \( isa 43 3 \) ye denied holy one christ \( acts 3 14 \) shall come pass whosoever shall call name lord jehovah shall delivered \( joel 2 32 \) name jesus christ nazareth none name heaven given among men , whereby must saved \( acts 4 10 , 12 \) behold , lord god jehovah come strong hand reward \( isa 40 10 \) behold , christ come quickly reward \( rev 22 12 \) lord jehovah god shall come , saints thee \( zech 14 5 \) coming lord jesus christ saints \( 1 thess 3 13 \) lord jehovah shepherd \( ps 23 1 \) jesus said good shepherd \( john 10 14 \) saith lord god jehovah seek lost \( ezek 34 15 16 \) son man come seek save lost \( luke 19 10 \) lord jehovah thy god , holy one israel , thy saviour \( isa 43 3 \) looking blessed hope , glorious appearing great god saviour jesus christ \( 2 13 see also jer 42 5 rev 1 5 mal 3 6 heb 13 8 1 kin 8 28 , 39 john 2 24 25 isa 25 8 2 tim 1 10 ps 107 24 , 29 matt 8 26 3 12 rev 3 19 \) mormons right say jesus jehovah , wrong say elohim bible reveals jehovah true elohim others false remember , jehovah personal name triune god revealed bible consider biblical quotes show jehovah elohim two separate gods mormons claims let us first note god father christ addressed jehovah elohim holy spirit holy ghost said covenant make days , saith lord , put laws hearts , minds write sins iniquities remember \( heb 10 15 17 \) \( emphasis holy ghost said added \) behold , days come , saith lord jehovah , make new covenant house israel , house judah put law inward parts , write hearts god elohim , shall people forgive iniquity , remember sin \( jer 31 31 , 33 34 \) \( emphasis added \) prophecy came old time man holy men god spake moved holy ghost \( 2 pet 1 21 \) \( emphasis holy ghost added \) spirit lord jehovah spake , word tongue \( 2 sam 23 2 see also heb 3 7 11 ps 95 6 11 \) let us continue biblical quotes show jehovah elohim two separate gods mormons claim lord jehovah saw moses turned aside see , god elohim called unto midst bush , said , moses , moses said , bruce r mcconkie acknowledged christ 's voice spoke moses burning bush promised messiah , p 394 lord jehovah said moses said unto god elohim , behold , come unto children israel , shall say unto , god elohim fathers hath sent unto shall say , name \? shall say unto \? god elohim said unto moses , said , thus shalt thou say unto children israel , hath sent unto god elohim said moreover unto moses , thus shalt thou say unto children israel , lord jehovah god elohim fathers , god elohim abraham , god elohim isaac , god elohim jacob , hath sent unto name ever , memorial unto generations \( exod 3 4 , 7 , 13 15 \) god elohim spake unto moses , said unto , lord jehovah \( exod 6 2 \) lord jehovah , none else , god elohim beside thee , though thou hast known \( isa 45 5 \) lord jehovah true god elohim , living god elohim , everlasting king \( jer 10 10 \) thus saith lord jehovah king israel , redeemer lord jehovah hosts first , last beside god elohim \( isa 44 6 \) therefore cause go captivity beyond damascus , saith lord jehovah , whose name god elohim hosts \( amos 5 27 \) behold , heaven heaven heavens lord 's jehovah 's thy god elohim , earth also , therein \( deut 10 14 \) wherefore thou art great , lord jehovah god elohim none like thee , neither god elohim beside thee , according heard ears \( 2 sam 7 22 \) said unto , hebrew fear lord jehovah , god elohim heaven , hath made sea dry land \( jon 1 9 \) god elohim save lord jehovah \? rock save god elohim \? \( ps 18 31 \) blessed nation whose god elohim lord jehovah \( ps 33 12 see also ps 144 15 \) hast thou known \? hast thou heard , everlasting god elohim , lord jehovah , creator ends earth , , neither weary \? searching understanding \( isa 40 28 \) mighty god elohim , even lord jehovah , hath spoken , called earth rising sun unto going thereof \( ps 50 1 \) sing unto god elohim , sing praises name upon heavens name jah , rejoice \( ps 68 4 \) regarding word jah , bruce r mcconkie stated jah \( hebrew yah \) contracted form jehovah , , yahweh names reference christ , god israel mormon doctrine , p 391 david arose , went people judah , bring thence ark god elohim , whose name called name lord jehovah hosts \( 2 sam 6 2 \) great mighty god elohim , lord jehovah hosts , name \( jer 32 18 \) god elohim , make like wheel stubble wind fill faces shame may seek thy name , lord jehovah men may know thou , whose name alone jehovah , art high earth \( ps 83 13 , 16 , 18 \) bible clearly teaches jehovah elohim fact , elohim true , living , mighty , great , everlasting elohim elohim israel , kingdoms earth , heavens creator made heavens host earth dwell jehovah 's name elohim hosts \( amos 5 27 \) jehovah , elohim , elohim jehovah bible reveals elohim 's name jah \( ps 68 4 \) , jehovah \( ps 83 18 \) , jehovah hosts \( 2 sam 6 2 jer 32 18 \) nation whose elohim jehovah blessed \( ps 33 12 \) clearly , jehovah elohim mormons another mormon error regarding elohim jehovah belief elohim , jehovah , father spirits , including jesus articles faith apostle james e , doctrinal exposition first presidency twelve apostles states god eternal father , ' literal parent spirits human race \( p 466 \) doctrinal exposition also states explicitly jesus christ father spirits taken yet shall take bodies upon earth , one son , sons daughters elohim \( p 473 \) apostle stated elohim name title god eternal father , whose firstborn son spirit jehovah \( jesus christ , p 38 \) apostle bruce r mcconkie stated following matter jehovah christ fact create earth forms plant animal life face thereof came placing man earth , change creators , father became personally involved things created son , using power delegated father , except man spirit flesh , man created father delegation authority creature creation concerned \( promised messiah , p 62 \) \( emphasis added \) mormon leaders claim jehovah christ create either man 's spirit body maintain mormon elohim , father , created man spirit body bible reveals truth created man moses spake unto lord jehovah , saying , let lord jehovah , god elohim spirits flesh , set man congregation \( num 27 15 16 see also 16 20 23 \) \( emphasis added \) lord jehovah , forth heavens , foundation earth , spirit man within \( zech 12 1 \) \( emphasis added \) lord jehovah made us soul \( jer 38 16 \) contend ever , neither always spirit fail , souls made saith lord jehovah \( isa 57 16 , 19 \) \( emphasis souls made added \) behold , lord jehovah , god elohim flesh \( jer 32 27 \) \( emphasis added \) thus saith lord jehovah , thy redeemer , formed thee womb lord jehovah things \( isa 44 24 \) \( emphasis added \) thus saith lord jehovah made earth , created man upon \( isa 45 11 12 \) \( emphasis added \) god elohim created man upon earth unto thee , thou know lord jehovah god elohim none else beside \( deut 4 32 , 35 \) thus saith god el lord jehovah spread forth earth , cometh giveth breath unto people upon , spirit walk therein \( isa 42 5 \) thus saith lord jehovah hosts , god elohim israel made earth , man beast upon ground \( jer 27 4 5 \) \( emphasis added \) bible reveals jehovah elohim spirits flesh flesh , formed spirit man within , made us soul formed us womb indeed create man mormon leaders right say jesus jehovah , wrong say create man right say father one created man , wrong say jehovah although mormon leaders teach jesus create man , mormon scriptures teach bom states following behold , jesus christ father son never showed unto man created , never man believed thou hast behold , body , ye behold , body spirit man created body spirit \( eth 3 14 16 \) \( emphasis added \) taketh upon sins world hath created \( mos 26 23 \) \( emphasis added \) god abraham , god isaac , god jacob god created heavens earth , things behold created adam \( mor 9 11 12 \) \( emphasis added \) c , 93 10 states worlds made christ men made things made , , \( emphasis added \) another error bruce r mcconkie involving jehovah creation belief jehovah many pre mortal spirits helping create included alleged group joseph smith , jr christ aided creation earth many noble great spirit children father evident abraham 's writings unto superior spirits christ said go , space , take materials , make earth may dwell \( 3 22 24 \) michael adam one enoch , noah , abraham , moses , peter , james , john , joseph smith , many noble great ones played part great creative enterprise \( doctrines salvation , vol 1 , pp 74 75 \) \( mormon doctrine , p 169 \) bible reveals truth matter thus saith lord jehovah , thy redeemer , formed thee womb , lord jehovah things forth heavens alone abroad earth \( isa 44 24 \) alone heavens , upon waves sea \( job 9 8 \) jehovah , , created things alleged spirit assisting regarding mormon , apostle mcconkie stated elohim plural word though , also used exalted name title god eternal father , usage supremacy omnipotence , god gods \( mormon doctrine , p 224 \) also stated jesus save father \( promised messiah , p 363 \) bible states one god called gods triune god jehovah lord jehovah great god el , great king gods elohim \( ps 95 3 \) thou , lord jehovah , art high earth thou art exalted far gods elohim \( ps 97 9 \) know lord jehovah greater gods elohim \( exod 18 11 see also ps 135 5 deut 10 17 \) mormon leaders right say jehovah god son elohim god father , verses bible would teaching mormon son father however , mcconkie clearly stated , mormons believe elohim father , jehovah son , god gods jesus except father yet bible teaches jehovah elohim byu dev march 2 , 1982 , bruce r mcconkie made following remark praying jesus another peril involved often begin pray directly christ special friendship feel developed plain sectarian nonsense prayers addressed father , perfect prayer addressed father , name son uttered power holy ghost \( relationship lord , pp 19 20 \) mcconkie states p 335 book promised messiah mormons pray father , son p 306 book mcconkie states christ son jehovah important remember , although mcconkie said prayer offered mormon christ jehovah , bible states repeatedly ot people prayed jehovah , heard prayers , accepted valid requests following small sample vast number times people prayed jehovah distress called upon lord jehovah , cried unto god elohim heard voice temple , cry came , even ears \( ps 18 6 \) lord jehovah said unto , heard thy prayer thy supplication , thou hast made hallowed house , thou hast built , put name ever mine eyes mine heart shall \( 1 kin 9 3 \) said unto jeremiah prophet , let , thee , supplication accepted thee , pray us unto lord jehovah thy god elohim , even remnant \( jer 42 2 \) lord jehovah , thee , let thine ear prayer thy servant , prayer thy servants , desire fear thy name \( 1 11 \) , solomon made end praying prayer supplication unto lord jehovah , arose altar lord jehovah , knees hands spread heaven \( 1 kin 8 54 \) went therefore , shut door upon twain , prayed unto lord jehovah \( 2 kin 4 33 \) go , say , thus saith lord jehovah , god elohim david thy father , heard thy prayer , seen thy tears behold , add unto thy days fifteen years \( isa 38 5 \) acknowledge sin unto thee , mine iniquity hid said , confess transgressions unto lord jehovah thou iniquity sin shall every one godly pray unto thee time thou found \( ps 32 5 6 \) notice ps 32 6 godly pray jehovah according mcconkie mormon leaders , christ one mcconkie said people pray bible reveals one true elohim , name jehovah elohim false idols cause followers commit adultery true elohim idolatry lord jehovah great , greatly praised feared gods elohim gods elohim nations idols lord jehovah made heavens \( ps 96 4 5 \) thou shalt gods elohim \( exod 20 3 \) know lord jehovah greater gods elohim \( exod 18 11 \) shall , thou forget lord jehovah thy god elohim , walk gods elohim , serve , worship , testify day ye shall surely perish \( deut 8 19 \) thou shalt make covenant , gods elohim shall dwell thy land , lest make thee sin thou serve gods elohim , surely snare unto thee \( exod 23 32 33 \) take heed , heart deceived , ye turn aside , serve gods elohim , worship \( deut 11 16 \) ye come among nations , remain among neither make mention name gods elohim , cause swear , neither serve , bow unto \( josh 23 7 \) neither walk gods elohim hurt \( jer 7 6 \) lord jehovah true god elohim , living god elohim \( jer 10 10 \) forsook lord jehovah god elohim fathers , brought land egypt , followed gods elohim , gods elohim people round , unto , provoked lord jehovah anger \( 2 12 \) shall man make gods elohim unto , gods elohim \? therefore , behold , cause know , cause know mine hand might shall know name lord jehovah \( jer 16 20 21 \) seem evil unto serve lord jehovah , choose day ye serve whether gods elohim fathers served side flood , gods elohim , whose land ye dwell house , serve lord jehovah people answered said , god elohim forbid forsake lord jehovah , serve gods elohim \( josh 24 15 16 \) verses teach true , living elohim heaven earth jehovah triune god made heaven earth therein jehovah greater elohim , elohim idols reality behind demonic \( deut 32 17 \) jehovah elohim given explicit warnings guidelines regarding false elohim told people elohim told people left false elohim , elohim would snare , would hurt would perish warned people take heed heart deceived worshiping , serving , swearing , making covenants false elohim jehovah elohim told people would eventually judge false elohim followers despite warnings guidelines , elohim 's covenant people forsook believed worshiped false elohim 's people came contact ju 10 6 states children israel evil sight lord jehovah served , , gods elohim syria , gods elohim , gods elohim moab , gods elohim children , gods elohim philistines , forsook lord jehovah , served examination shown elohim mormonism , like elohim ju 10 6 true jehovah elohim therefore , people leave true elohim mormon elohim evil sight lord jehovah although mcconkie attacked christians belief triune god spirit belief god father jehovah sent son world , beliefs true god triune spirit jehovah send son world redeem mankind obvious examination christians thrash around darkness elohim jehovah one wonders holy writ mcconkie mind stated fact elohim father , jehovah son certainly mean bible teaches father , son , holy spirit one jehovah elohim apparently mean c either , chapter 109 , verses 1 , 4 , 9 10 , 14 , 19 , 22 , 24 , 29 , 34 , 42 , 47 , 56 , 68 , 77 refer father jehovah summary obviously joseph fielding smith 's statement mormons clear perfect understanding nature god \( doctrines salvation , 1 279 \) accurate mormon gods true god mormonism claims , idols cause followers commit adultery god idolatry answer jesus' question , say ye , mormons say jesus someone different jesus revealed bible apostles preached therefore , anyone trusting mormon jesus believing another jesus paul warned bernard p , first seventy , admitted may 1977 issue ensign , mormon publication , mormon jesus different christian jesus stated true many christian churches worship different jesus christ worshipped mormons church jesus christ latter day saints \( p 26 \) people believe mormon jesus committing adultery god idolatry son therefore , father , eternal life apostle bruce r mcconkie rightly stated salvation comes worshiping true god \( promised messiah , p 163 \) mcconkie also rightly stated mere worship god proper scriptural names assure one worshiping true living god , true names deity applied false concepts god \( mormon doctrine , p 270 \) remember apostle stephen l richards admitted joseph smith , jr , gave new conception god godhead \( contributions joseph smith , p 1 \) important people left true triune god revealed bible repent return must forsake sins idolatry adultery committing mormonism bible says forsake thee shall ashamed , depart shall written earth , forsaken lord jehovah , fountain living waters \( jer 17 13 \) shall , thou forget lord jehovah thy god elohim , walk gods elohim , serve , worship , testify day ye shall surely perish \( deut 8 19 \) thou shalt make covenant gods elohim \( exod 23 32 \) put away strange gods elohim among , clean , change garments \( gen 35 2 \) flee idolatry \( 1 cor 10 14 \) necessary christians heed warnings bible , fall sins adultery god idolatry remember , know true god eternal life \( john 17 3 \) gods elohim shall snare unto \( ju 2 3 see also exod 23 32 33 \)
keng den mmc com \( ken garrido \) subject message mr president know happened \? nntp posting host tunfaire den mmc com organization martin marietta astronautics , denver lines 19 royc rbdc wsnc org \( roy crabtree \) writes article keng tunfaire keng den mmc com \( ken garrido \) writes lotsa stuff taken bottom line due process served peaceful attempt serve warrant occurred peaceful attempt serve warrant met gunfire due process served branch davidians wanted way think royc milk babies 're man , drink beer arnold ken garrido \( 's reed oh \) miserable c hack email keng tunfaire den mmc com kenneth garrido filebank com
yoyo cc monash edu au \( david \) subject new religion forming sign organization monash university , melb , australia x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 1 alt religion spam \?
clavazzi nyx cs du edu \( doge \) subject waco information accuracy x disclaimer nyx public access unix system run university denver denver community university neither control responsibility opinions users organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept lines 25 article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) writes article crcnis1 unl edu , e p unl edu \( edgar pearlstein \) wrote example fbi report several bodies found rubble bullet wounds local coroner , independent fbi , far found bullet wounds ! according cnn last night \( saturday 4 24 93 \) found bullets two corpses , head \( would indicate bullets aimed killing humans \) , course , deter several die hard net , probably claim tarrant county medical examiner \( dr \) coerced fbi faking evidence either , 'll claim fbi shot rest us might contemplate difficulty determining cause death corpse reduced krispy doge south st louis dobbs approved media conspirator \( tm \) one step beyond sundays , 3 5 pm 88 1 fm st louis community radio 'll pay know really think ! j r bob dobbs
saturn sdsu edu \( david \) subject new religion forming sign organization san diego state university , college sciences lines 20 nntp posting host saturn sdsu edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 andrew bulhak \( aurora cc monash edu au \) wrote jim \( isaac rpi edu \) wrote article rpi edu , weinss rs6101 ecs rpi edu \( stephen andrew weinstein \) writes kibology \? chopped liver \? kibo summed saying kibology religion , also candy mint floor wax personally think like spam clear i'm presently searching enlightenment , answers unanswerable , certain amount direction without actually going anywhere could kibology \? n't know enough kibology wish someone help 've spread ninth tube paste living room wall form art need higher authority turn towards give life meaning maybe kibology answer 's either go store buy another case paste
radian natinst com \( mark \) subject rfd misc taoism nntp posting host zippy radian com organization n b lines 16 article 1993apr22 coe montana edu uphrrmk gemini oscs montana edu \( jack coyote \) writes sunlight shining ocean universe , mirrored puddle aleph null bottles beer wall , aleph null bottles beer ! take one , pass around aleph null bottles beer wall ! n't amazing always seems another bottle \? aleph one bottles beer wall , aleph one null bottles beer ! , , puddle , mark
cayley plains nodak edu \( michele cayley \) subject new religion forming sign nntp posting host plains nodak edu organization north dakota higher education computing network lines 10 mistaken alt drugs used recruit people worldwide pot religion , however problem death dupont free bobby fischer michele cayley mom , sue johan \( drunken naked genius large \)
bskendig netcom com \( brian kendig \) subject good jesus died \? organization starfleet headquarters san francisco lines 23 brian lpl arizona edu \( brian ceccarelli 602 621 9615 \) writes even though new born innocent , sinful nature surely manifest explicity gets older surely grows hair head teeth within mouth , show signs innate sin rebelling daddy loud proclamation 's showing signs innate sin , 's testing limits independence two year old continually test see much get away , pet dog child always submitted fashion , would praise suspect 's second coming christ , would seek professional help emotional development \? brian kendig je ne suis fait comme aucun bskendig netcom com de ceux que j'ai vus j'ose croire n'etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent meaning life si je ne vaux pas mieux , au moins je suis autre ends rousseau
hamilton hydra cs gmr com \( bill hamilton \) subject burden proof organization gm r center lines 39 distribution world nntp posting host hydra cs gmr com article lynx unm edu cfaehl vesta unm edu \( chris faehl \) writes article 7hg aurora engr latech edu , ray engr latech edu \( bill ray \) writes note followups go alt atheism , talk religion misc , talk origins ! deleted make statement , god exists , loves , etc way insist believe , place burden proof upon insist god n't exist , place burden proof upon \? give proofs , give testimony beliefs respond proofs attempt disprove beliefs say x statement give authority fact , respond asking n't obligated say anything , intent convince x statement true , yes , burden proof upon discussed could established disproven experiment observation , would agree , chris burden proof would belong bill source document christianity , bible , simply assumes god exists makes clear \( us , anyway \) \) person fellowship god , god taken initiative revealing person christian point view , burden proof belongs god bill consistent bible teaches relating experience god , would error part assume direct , causal relationship testimony someone else becoming convinced god exists needs reconciled god merely giving testimony beliefs , egotist please excuse missed earlier part thread bill came across like egotist saw simply obedience scriptural command always ready give reason joy bill hamilton
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject 's next \? mormons jews \? organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 10 article 8mm usenet ins cwru edu , cj195 cleveland freenet edu \( john w redelfs \) wrote hands defender , 357 miracle god helps help n't ever heard one \? n't know god secular humanist kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
bskendig netcom com \( brian kendig \) subject good jesus died \? organization starfleet headquarters san francisco lines 15 sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) writes 've done things , 've , learned lesson two far aspirin , good talk wife , one week vacation cured need group therapy strange religions ! um , kent wife \? ! \? brian kendig je ne suis fait comme aucun bskendig netcom com de ceux que j'ai vus j'ose croire n'etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent meaning life si je ne vaux pas mieux , au moins je suis autre ends rousseau
bskendig netcom com \( brian kendig \) subject rob lanphier organization starfleet headquarters san francisco lines 41 brian lpl arizona edu \( brian ceccarelli 602 621 9615 \) writes kent , regards information contained bible \( original context thread \) , brian kendig inside huge wall brian inside bible information contained therein outside wall um , think bible ones inside wall 's really wonderful world really peek sometime silly things keep saying reinforce fact opposite sides high wall see incredibly beautiful things side , keep telling 'd like come join brian kendig proves sad fact absurd things says example , get pit , cease exist never said said would prefer cease exist tossed god 's version hell proposing brian , brian , come take look vantage point brian replies , rather thank content besides , vista stinks meanwhile , brian ignores facts never realize shared plateau brian stands say , brian , come take look vantage point 're valley , looking drawing sun tree , ca n't life figure 're 'm one trying get come , n't see \? brian kendig je ne suis fait comme aucun bskendig netcom com de ceux que j'ai vus j'ose croire n'etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent meaning life si je ne vaux pas mieux , au moins je suis autre ends rousseau
king ctron com \( john e king \) subject albert sabin organization cabletron systems inc lines 9 nntp posting host saturn ctron com rfox charlie usd edu rfox charlie usd edu writes discussion josephus inserts thanks correct , , assuming josephus fact write jesus , christian \? jack
poe acc virginia edu \( randolph stuart \) subject greek myth bible organization university virginia lines 21 article infoserv com infoserv com \( ed , jr \) writes pegasus fp1 dialin 7 uoregon edu , pegasus aaa uoregon edu \( laurie \) wrote text book used part introductory course social term myth designates traditionally based , dramatic narratives themes emphasize nature humankind 's relationship nature supernatural peter b 's introduction social anthropology second ed page 387 i'm sure distinguish myth legend neatly , myth single story thought structure world paradigm story interpreted important part myth story thus , think story meant conveyed understandably one person another within single culture wo n't rest upon underlying thought structure , thus transmit culture 's mythical truths along randy
netcom com \( john w morris \) subject davidians compassion organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 26 surely equating david koresh christianity \? two comparable always option sect causing harm , label cult something else cheers , kent good point would doubt dk could spouted verse debated best according reports extensive bible knowledge one way sucked fools \( followers \? \) quote bible want judge say even makes sense sense , common n't seem common ! john morris netcom com san diego , ca opinion ,
tbrent ecn purdue edu \( timothy j brent \) subject message mr president know happened \? keywords success organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 39 one thought government claimed believed automatic weapons premises license 50 caliber machine gun ! knew damn well one also knew legally ! still , without element surprise sent agents get president takes full responsibility guy ! hope gets gun semi auto , thus legal batf claims davidians also possessed illegally modified ar 15 's illegal explosives mitchell todd mst4298 zeus ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' tamu edu ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' check news today , \( ap \) authorities also found state art automatic machine gun investigators know cult 's arsenal carl stern , justice department imagine authorities know difference semi fully automatic probably knew weather guns legal access relative documentation \( e permits \) addition 50 caliber guns \( plural \) semi automatic rifles tim
dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu \( darius lecointe \) subject message mr president know happened \? organization florida state university lines 36 keng den mmc com \( ken garrido \) writes royc rbdc wsnc org \( roy crabtree \) writes article keng tunfaire keng den mmc com \( ken garrido \) writes lotsa stuff taken bottom line due process served peaceful attempt serve warrant occurred peaceful attempt serve warrant met gunfire due process served branch davidians wanted way think chance see pictures agents jackets climbing roof breaking windows call peaceful \? believed , people , would attacked evil forces outside , found scores agents breaking compound would \? beliefs always determine actions beliefs may wrong point view make practical attempted stick needle would try stop believe would hurt , right would ignore certainly would saw sticking needle tree koresh may misguided , god knows jews masada died believed , three hebrews preferred die rather bow , daniel preferred die lion 's den rather stop praying god , christian prepared die faith koresh dying reason cause give children forces convinced evil events bizarre match beliefs darius
dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu \( darius lecointe \) subject right \? organization florida state university lines 31 joakimr ifi uio \( joakim ruud \) writes recently , 've asked rather interesting question right god lives \( always assuming god , course ! \) \? \? infinite wisdom , made perfectly clear n't live according rules , burn hell well , right god make desicion \? let 's say , sake argument , god creates every one us \( directly indirectly , n't matter \) happens , first creates us , turns us lose well , n't ask created let 's make analogue scientist creates unique living creature \( happened , even patented ! ! ! \) , right expect behave certain matter , die \? god impose rules us \? tell god really righteous god likes us believe \? christians flock sheep , unable otherwise follow rest \? hmmmmmmmmmmmm want point sarcasm , mean one deal man convinced acting according god 's , jokke fore believes favour stabbing back \? voltaire
subject message mr president know happened \? medkeffjs hirama hiram edu \( jeff medkeff \) organization hiram college nntp posting host hirama hiram edu lines 43 keng den mmc com \( ken garrido \) writes royc rbdc wsnc org \( roy crabtree \) writes article keng tunfaire keng den mmc com \( ken garrido \) writes lotsa stuff taken bottom line due process served peaceful attempt serve warrant occurred peaceful attempt serve warrant met gunfire due process served branch davidians wanted way think exactly known flower child pacifist , lets call peaceful attempt serve warrant consisted following actions , order 1 \) batf agents forcing entry compound second story windows 2 \) batf agents loosing grenades \( allegedly stun flash grenades \) promptly detonated , according tapes seen , b started shooting back exactly someone breaking private property tossing grenades around considered peaceful anyone \? think \( say still hold previous entirely correct notions worn arms used assaulting building \) jeffrey medkeff bitnet medkeffjs hiramb po box 1098 internet medkeffjs hiramb hiram edu hiram , oh pale thought wrong fight u roaring bill \( killed \) thought right
mlee post royalroads ca \( malcolm lee \) subject laws god \( kind loving god ! ! \) organization royal roads military college , victoria , b c lines 102 article owl csrv uidaho edu , moscow uidaho edu \( rob lanphier \) writes two conflicting statements say one clarification breach logic n't mind people shifting position issue said premise change made deuteronomy 22 20 25 \? wrong \? jesus change \? anything , clarified law quote made following verses , jesus takes several portions law upon law giving clearer meaning god intended sure however , n't address notion stoning non virgin , needs clarification going deny deuteronomy 22 20 25 patently clear intent \? see getting \( least think \) correct mistaken , think asking still believe uphold laws pertaining capital punishment things adultery , rape heinous crimes may recall , jesus confronted question regards caught act brought jesus reply , let without sin cast first stone jesus deny sentence due violation law think \? think agree today 's world , lot modern day pharisees know bible end end believe good head knowledge nothing heart \? 'll agree lot modern day pharisees know bible end end n't believe depending use knowledge , scary argue position desire , back selected parts bible pharisees include david koresh hitler qualify saying n't know actually believed preaching , ends certainly made means look frightening agreed \) however , scary n't know much bible , believe every word fact , probably , since far people , 've seen addition , easy manipulate aforementioned pharisees , since n't know enough debate people agreed also one use bible reference , one must always open different interpretations christian , spirit god verify believe word spirit tells backed scripture spirit communicating god , jesus tells us test spirits know sure god christianity set rules 's lifestyle changes one 's perspectives personal conduct demands obedience god 's , demands obedience book god came personally told behave , would say would god 's however , preachers , pastors , evangelists tell obey book written people dead close two millenia \( even longer ot \) , even follow everything heart , could scarcely honest saying i'm god obey spirit god tells spirit violate anything written bible word god worship pastors , preachers , wife , mother father tell carry weight god tells commands bible people live , many others cannot choice respect god respects well , god respects much , come talk bible eternal damnation non believers \? see little respect god bible see selfish god eternal damnation consequence choice one makes rejecting god choose jump cliff , hardly blame god going splat bottom knows choose jump , die prevent making choice fact , sent son stand edge cliff tell everyone lies prove point , jesus took plunge god able rise seen example christ chosen jump i'm trying tell jump else 'll go splat n't listen wo n't stop decide jump ask check taking plunge owe n't like seeing anyone go splat god , malcolm lee \)
dmeier casbah acns nwu edu \( douglas meier \) subject message mr president know happened \? keywords success nntp posting host casbah acns nwu edu organization northwestern university , evanston il lines 5 douglas c meier ca n't play electro magnetic golf northwestern university , acns according rules university commie huxley , brave new world lib pinko views dmeier casbah acns nwu edu
exuptr exu ericsson se \( patrick taylor , sounding board \) subject message mr president know happened \? nntp posting host 138 85 253 85 organization ericsson network systems , inc x disclaimer article posted user ericsson opinions expressed strictly user necessarily ericsson lines 19 article murdoch acc virginia edu rwd4f poe acc virginia edu \( rob dobson \) writes article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) writes i'm mostly angry davidians n't spare children awful suffering see posting , i'm bad temper well , dozens children left compound original batf assualt fbi assault 7 weeks later koresh really wanted kill children , let many go \? word ones let go visit sounding board bbs 1 214 596 2915 , ! bbs foot bill let 's get new president patrick taylor , ericsson network systems thx 1138 exuptr exu ericsson se n't let se fool
emarsh hernes sun eng sun com \( eric marsh \) subject magick parallel universes \( universe black holes \) organization sun lines 45 nntp posting host hernes sun article andrew cmu edu nm0w andrew cmu edu \( nanci ann miller \) writes emarsh hernes sun eng sun com \( eric marsh \) writes btw , parallel universe approach element mind physical reality universe sounds interesting exactly mean \? well , best thing read book parallel universes dr fred wolf essence , dr wolf says one interpretation sub atomic particle wave perceive wave actually number parallel universes overlaid , universes particle different location something make particle appear , actually causing parallel universes collapse one apparently one line thought nature qm , going scientific community dr wolf \( many others \) claim somehow collapse caused mental effort observing particle mind merely biological phenomenon mind integral part universe , perhaps consciousness element gives order form universe \( \) themself \( \) gets rather interesting , find facinating would explain phenomenon magick practiced religion dr wolf ordering functionality mind could caused selection future infinite number possible says might done sort communication ones current , possible future selves long speculated magick merely form self delusion perhaps could caused sort selection one many possible realize gets pretty bizarre , never hurts keep open mind least file away another explaination world find , learn universe live , learn truly strange place nanci eric
emarsh hernes sun eng sun com \( eric marsh \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization sun lines 34 nntp posting host hernes sun article horus ap mchp sni de frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) writes frank , unless n't realize , involved debate various opinions , entity frame opinion expressed think n't need state dreadful r word , 's sometimes correct say morality objective , \? able prove morality objective , would correct problem , meaning words question , oxymoronic course could redefine words , would still lend support underlying concept , could hardly wrong , without dragging word parse could hardly wrong without dragging word \? part , say relativism true , 's opinion folk get heated , belief relativism merely matter taste \? \( fair , calm , get impression 's n't care notions objectivity flavour right \? \) problem objectivity objectivity led conclude morality subjective frank o'dwyer 'i'm hatching that' odwyer sse ie hens , evelyn conlon eric
wvhorn magnus acs ohio state edu \( william vanhorne \) subject behave \( waco reading suggestion \) nntp posting host photon magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 10 article pgf srl03 cacs usl edu pgf srl03 cacs usl edu \( phil g fraering \) writes come noone mentions eric talking fanatic behavior anymore \? good point n't read true believer eric , first opportunity n't know style , true believer still best explanation behavior ever written bill vanhorne
pharvey quack kfu com \( paul harvey \) subject daniel v zoroaster , jewish discomfort jesus organization duck pond public unix 1 408 249 9630 , log 'guest' lines 281 article fidonet org bill carlson p0 n104 z1 fidonet org \( bill carlson \) writes since everywhere look , zoroaster suggested probable descendant daniel suppose prove n't zoroaster far older daniel anything , one could claim , sense , daniel descendant zoroaster daniel , though hebrew , assimilated zoroastrianism successfully introduced religion judaism however , majority book hellenistic aramaic \( babylonian aramaic \) writing status ref encyclopedia religion , daniel , , hebrew , hero biblical book bears name daniel presented jew babylonian exile achieved royal court dream interpretations cryptography salvation death lion 's pit also appears last chapters book divine mysteries israel 's restoration national religious autonomy practitioner court , described daniel 1 6 \( written third person \) , daniel per forms interpretations alone , visionary , daniel 7 12 \( written first person \) , need angel help decode visions mysteries future likely name daniel pseudonymous , deliberate wise righteous man known legend earlier biblical tradition \( ez 14 4 , 28 3 \) authorship book complicated diverse narrative voices content language daniel 1 1 2 4a 8 12 written hebrew , whereas daniel 2 4b 7 28 aramaic language division parallels subject division \( daniel 1 6 concerns legends dream interpretations 7 12 concerns apocalyptic visions interpretations older prophecies \) overall chronological scheme well internal balances \( daniel 2 7 related \) suggest attempt unity tale emphasizing life court loyalty daniel youths religion , chronological ordering discernable sequence king darius reported \( dn 7 12 \) much royal dating even tales problematic example , daniel 4 speaks 's transformation beast , story reported qumran scrolls portrayed last king babylon , although never king darius called conquered babylon placed cyrus ii persia , although darius known \( medes followed persians , darius name several persian kings \) presumably episodes daniel 2 6 , series , episodes ritual , reports miraculous collected period \( late fourth mid second century bce \) order jewish hopes divine providence encourage steadfast faith visions daniel 7 12 , reporting events reign cyrus ii \( actually predicting overthrow rule palestine \) , collected published reign antiochus iv prior revolt , \( beginning 168 bce \) jews put test concerning allegiance judaism traditions , many refused statues moses endured martyr 's death trust divine dominion visions daniel dominion different ways example , via images god judgment , son man invested rule \( figure interpreted jews michael archangel christians christ \) , chapter 7 via zodiacal images cosmic beasts bizarre manifestations , chapter 8 via complex ancient prophecies , especially jeremiah 25 9 11 , found daniel 9 12 imagery four beasts chapter 7 \( image four metals chapter 2 \) , representing four kingdoms overthrown fifth monarchy divine origin , one enduring images book sur prototype jewish christian historical apocalyptic schemes end middle ages role power imagery fifteenth sixteenth century work isaac , scientist isaac newton , philosopher jean among fifth monarchy men century england , example , abiding testimony use ancient organizing imagination diverse thinkers groups still used day various groups predicting apocalyptic advent encouragement face religious persecution found daniel 11 12 contains remarkable isaiah 52 13 53 12 , regarding suffering servant god israel select faithful neither opening stories daniel youths final advocate violence revolt rather advocate stance , civil disobedience , resignation victory faithful hands archangel michael , martyrs resurrected granted astral immortality circles behind book fighters may reflect proto group , themes resistance oppression , freedom worship , preservation integrity , overthrow historical , acknowledgement god heaven recur throughout book served token trust faithful hour zarathushtra , founder religion know zoroastrianism \( mazda ahura mazda , name god prophesied zarathushtra \) etymology history zarathushtra , avestan oldest form name , uncertain , various iranian languages related forms else may old persian form , , greek form , , may derived , may existed old iranian form , , may linked middle iranian , several middle persian forms \( \) , new persian state certainty second half name , , means camel form zoroaster , derived greek , used traditionally european culture eighteenth century , , closer original \( found nietzsche \) , came common use avesta , collection sacred books zoroastrianism , resulting studies iranian philology see avesta notwithstanding great continued popularity zarathushtra , even western culture , sources available us , extremely fragmented , principle sources five gathas \( songs \) , attributed zarathushtra included yasna section avesta gatha \( yasna 28 34 \) , gatha \( yasna 43 46 \) , gatha \( yasna 47 50 \) , gatha \( yasna 51 \) , gatha \( yasna 53 \) , last probably written prophet 's death sources considerable , albeit varying , importance younger avesta remaining zoroastrian religious literature , particular pahlavi texts ninth tenth ce although achaemenid inscriptions \( sixth fourth bce \) never mention zarathushtra , mentioned greek sources time \( , however , herodotus , seems unaware \) avesta provide direct explicit data concerning true chronological history zarathushtra text useful indirect way , clearly implies environment zoroastrianism arose iran medes persians greek sources , hand , provide information concerning time zarathushtra , although historical point view unreliable place six thousand years trojan war \( , , , , aristotle , plutarch , , \) account , however , also interpreted mean six hundred , rather six thousand , years expedition greece interpretation favored , makes reference , although scholars \( , helmut \) recently attempted various pretexts , generally rejected although historical value greek sources negligible , nonetheless important show doctrine history cosmos already developed iran achaemenid period , account would seem demonstrate also show time zarathushtra already seen almost mythical figure , one extremely distant past leads conclusion prophet could belonged historical period contemporary , even close , later zoroastrian sources , pahlavi texts , provide absolute zarathushtra , one also accepted arab authors accord ing sources , zarathushtra lived 300 258 years alexander , scholars divided validity chronology view historically reliable others believe devoid historical justification convincing arguments , however , seem support latter position figure 258 years accurate surface represents , fact , general one 300 , employed sasanid propagandists locate zarathushtra 's lifetime roughly around beginning iranian domination number reasons connected complex problems inherent iranian chronology , also desire part sasanid propagandists avoid threat context , zarathushtra , tradition places early ninth millennium beginning cosmos , converted age forty two , 's conversion viewed beginning millennium \( thus explaining double date 300 258 years alexander \) given available sources , forced reconstruct absolute chronology basis elements , principally contention zarathushtra must lived centuries cyrus great , , darius , mention avesta great political achievements took place western iran middle first millennium bce mention history period , lead iran position time , number reasons , going back much history would justified consequently , traditionally accepted theory placing around beginning first millennium bce appears legitimate zarathushtra 's land origin , many scholars agree , basis valid arguments , must come eastern iran held , largely late iranian tradition linking zarathushtra azerbaijan , also linguistic reasons , based language avesta hypothesis , however , discarded , suppose , historical linguistic grounds , zarathushtra came east , even though know precisely region considerable variety opinion particular matter , including improbable view came , present day , wider region , reaching far likely , however , zarathushtra 's land origin somewhere vast area stretching hindu mountain range southern regions \( modern \) , well \( area lake \) would thus located afghanistan border regions iran zarathushtra tells us belonged priestly caste \( yasna 33 6 \) \( cf \) , , priest belonging specific group connected school produced elaborate learned religious poetry even called younger avesta described \( 13 94 \) , general term encompassing entire priestly caste enter undergone long rigid training , used lend dignity \( gathas \) contents new message , product great original ethical mind zarathushtra also belongs venerable priestly tradition , linking india iran another way , centering teachings praise , possessor , , one , vedic , seeks truth masters , thus becoming life almost initiate blessed death good follower teachings seeks vision , chosing right path vedic india vision sun , manifestation behind concepts language lies great tradition aryan mysticism , , indo iranian mysticism zarathushtra 's greatness , however , lie belonged particular religious tradition rather , lies innovation strength message , break tradition , one force fully effectively introduced two great revolutionary ideas \( wise lord fathers two twin spirits , evil \) expectation \( av , , \) life existence see ideas particular doctrine deeply separate zarathushtra 's teachings indo iranian tions upbringing rebellion religion provide adequate answers problem evil basic tenets , zarathushtra , advocated inward right individual resist tion , numbered among greatest religious figures another original facet zarathushtra 's message , one easy understand , however , holds key deeper understanding complex intellectual poetic structure gathas , doctrine , abstract notions good thought , best truth , desirable power , devotion , , immortality , operate according system correlations simultaneously manifestations divinity human virtue see names father , \( possessing gray horses \) , mother , \( one \) , know almost nothing zarathushtra 's life late pahlavi text also give names four brothers according tradition , zarathushtra left home age twenty , thirty subject revelation , intense powerful inspiration vision ten years passed , however , succeed converting cousin , , beliefs strongly opposed native land , , , priestly groups associated traditional teachings practices hostility caused leave region \( yasna 46 1 \) seek refuge court , ruler converted new religion together wife , , prophet , according tradition , forty two years old also know name son , \( desiring \) , three daughters born first wife , well names two sons , \( commanding men \) \( sun faced \) , born second wife , , member influential \( possessing good cattle \) family two figures belonging family mentioned , former 's father , latter husband third daughter prophet , \( thoughtful \) , whose wedding celebrated fifth gathas \( yasna 53 \) , according tradition , zarathushtra died age seventy seven assassinated , priest old religion , belonged tribe called \( name known pahlavi form \) information prophet 's life compensated tion , rich legendary detail , arose centuries zoroastrian communities main texts documenting tradition seventh book , pahlavi work dating ninth century ce , well passages pahlavi texts new persian work thirteenth century , \( book zarathushtra \) , written mythical ritual elements prevail later legends zarathushtra , symbol make archetype perfect man zarathushtra 's great popularity ancient world continued throughout renaissance enlightenment classical hellenistic periods viewed wise man , typical representative alien wisdom , master secrets heaven earth , , , psychologist , wonder worker pythagorean thinkers went far see influence zarathushtra pythagoras , always openly admired persian thinker founded school magi advocated doctrine dualism earliest christianity viewed zarathushtra precursor christian faith , one prophesied , biblical prophets , advent messiah also predicted supernatural sign coming , star appear east guide three magi manger bethlehem see magi christian interpretation derived zoroastrian doctrine saoshyant , savior future see saoshyant later , however , religious struggles arose sasanid empire persia \( third seventh centuries ce \) , linked spread christianity roman empire zarathushtra 's popularity christian world began decline iranian prophet , praised often gnostic schools seen mani one three great messengers past , seen , instead , leader heresy , teacher arts enlightenment , european cultures reverted image come classical hellenistic antiquity viewed , , great wise man , author oracles probably inventor , teacher astrology , possible bridge christianity , , times \( voltaire \) , symbol non christian wisdom western philology zarathushtra eighteenth nineteenth centuries , friedrich nietzsche , intentional paradox , gave name hero work also \( \) nietzsche saw iranian prophet first discovered true motive force underlying things , , eternal struggle good evil see also zoroastrianism
david r sacco dsav andrew cmu edu subject abortion private health coverage letters regarding organization misc student , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 8 1993apr21 desire wright edu nntp posting host po2 andrew cmu edu reply 1993apr21 desire wright edu 21 apr 93 abortion private user boomer desire wrig writes courts found ok charge women less auto insurance , 's illegal charge health insurance \( live longer \) make pay retirement funds legal arena n't 100 consistent gender issue pa recently gender auto insurance removed point
cfaehl vesta unm edu \( chris faehl \) subject burden proof organization university new mexico , albuquerque lines 35 distribution world nntp posting host vesta unm edu hamilton hydra cs gmr com \( bill hamilton \) writes cfaehl vesta unm edu \( chris faehl \) writes ray engr latech edu \( bill ray \) writes note followups go alt atheism , talk religion misc , talk origins ! deleted deleted say x statement give authority fact , respond asking n't obligated say anything , intent convince x statement true , yes , burden proof upon interesting stuff , lines burden proof belongs god merely giving testimony beliefs , egotist please excuse missed earlier part thread bill came across like egotist saw simply obedience scriptural command always ready give reason joy remainder article deleted stated one would egotist believe someone cared bill r thought needed say god whether irrelevant jumping trailer , always ready etc , goes right back burden proof question go ahead give reason think god exists , state thing bill hamilton chris faehl cfaehl vesta unm edu
cotera woods ulowell edu subject biblical backing koresh 's 3 02 tape \( cites enclosed \) lines 25 organization university massachusetts lowell article sbctri sbc com , tph susie sbc com \( timothy p henrion \) writes article 1993apr21 1 woods ulowell edu cotera woods ulowell edu writes assume evidence responsible deaths \? common sense fire caused either koresh followers fbi atf cia kgb maybe harper valley pta since throwing around evidence arguement , 'll throw back prove government agency \? \( please n't resort covered proves wild theories government agencies intentionally started fire key words proof evidence \) proves , want investigation please explain koresh defending children burned ever said \? obvious defending , followers , government whether think right wrong another question right , moral right kill kgbatf agents ray cote 's government like government
charlie fulton charlie isis mit edu subject abortion organization ctr advanced oppressive lines 16 distribution world nntp posting host mit edu x useragent nuntius v1 1 article watson ibm com larry margolis , margoli watson ibm com writes 459 uupcb ozonehole com anthony landreneau ozonehole com \( anthony landreneau \) writes rape passed , nothing ever take away true forcing remain pregnant continues violation body another 9 months see unbelievably cruel n't welcome pain labor , selfish bitch deserves die childbirth probably lying rape anyway charlie
jasons atlastele com \( jason smith \) subject good jesus died \? organization atlas telecom inc lines 63 article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) writes article 1993apr21 organpipe uug arizona edu , brian lpl arizona edu \( brian ceccarelli 602 621 9615 \) wrote hmm , seems core christianity , feel guilty , 's single personality save universal guilt feeling brian , tell secret , n't feel guilty , mistakes , regret , however 've never huge guilt feeling hanging shoulder tell another secret get burning sensation hand every time hold candle pain fill entire body , i'm told longer hold , less 'll hurt \( 'll eventually burn nerves , i'm told \) suppose ignore pain , holding hand candle something want 've got right , n't \? body feels pain let know something wrong 's body 's alarm system informing something needs attention fever tells sick , need sort care guilt seen emotional spiritual alarm , informing something 've done requires attention n't require personality type become believer requires someone willing listen , body soul know n't know everything frankly speaking n't care , life fun anyway recognize i'm perfect , hinder healthy inspiring life several years knew really liked dropping \( lsd \) frankly speaking , n't really care fun anyway n't matter every child wife want tremendously greater risk serious birth defects several years knew really liked sex many women could convice frankly speaking , n't care n't care putting one risk \( well future partners \) n't matter first decade marriage , wife worry possibly last sneeze meant something much worse cold humans subscribe notion nice thing finally shake huge burden , shoulders feel far relaxed ! nice thing pain killers , take enough , wo n't care fever , breath pain jason smith jasons atlastele com i'm young enough know everything 1x1
i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization technical university braunschweig , germany lines 25 article markp elvis wri com markp elvis wri com \( mark pundurs \) writes atoms objective n't even real scientists call atom nothing mathematical model describes certain physical , observable properties surroundings subjective , 's ! sorry , jim , idea theory explaining myriad distinctly different observations merely model sensible people accept phobia objective reality notwithstanding point real one waste time reality might one wants predictions questions atoms something else making measurements indicate atoms necessary system one write new theory existence everytime new models used physics n't forget prove last sentence , namely sensible n't accept benedikt
nntp posting host ifi uio joakimr ifi uio \( joakim ruud \) subject message mr president know happened \? organization dept informatics , university oslo , norway lines 20 originator joakimr ifi uio tell really stupid , pretending tell really stupid , pretending fire insurance hope never use fire insurance offensive weapon spare tire trunk hope never use spare tire offensive weapon one deal man convinced acting according god 's , jokke fore believes favour stabbing back \? voltaire
wilkins scubed com \( darin wilkins \) subject message mr president know happened \? keywords success nntp posting host renoir organization cubed , division maxwell labs san diego ca lines 38 article noose ecn purdue edu tbrent ecn purdue edu \( timothy j brent \) writes check news today , \( ap \) authorities also found state art automatic machine gun investigators know cult 's arsenal carl stern , justice department article mojo eng umd edu russotto eng umd edu \( matthew russotto \) writes yeah fire reportedly burned hotter 1000 degrees hot enough make bodies still authorities found gun fully automatic state art n't \? convenient \? seems appropriate cross posted alt conspiracy assuming favorable interpretation measurement \( temperature , rather common us fahrenheit \) , still laboring least 2 misconceptions 1 seem believe steel somewhere around 1000 c actually , melting point iron \( iron \) neighborhood 1400 c even gun found area achieved 1000 c temperature , steel parts gun would deformed , would still trivial identify nature weapon 2 fire process spots spots , though purely relative term weapon necessarily situated hot spot , seem imply , even , \? would melted anyway darin wilkins scubed com president food
dpw sei cmu edu \( david wood \) subject laws god \( kind loving god ! ! \) reply mlee post royalroads ca 's message sat , 24 apr 1993 18 09 51 gmt organization software engineering institute lines 155 mlee post royalroads ca \( malcolm lee \) writes dpw sei cmu edu \( david wood \) writes mlee ra royalroads ca \( malcolm lee \) writes laws written israelites , god 's chosen people god expressly set apart rest world israelites direct witness god 's existence disobey god knowing god real would outright denial god therefore immediately punishable remember , laws written different time applied god 's chosen people jesus changed living age grace sin longer immediately punishable death repentance salvation lord jesus christ chosen people salvation available everyone , jew gentile alike sorry late thread , thought god supposed constant never changing reconcile common christian view paragraph \? god never changes sorry , yes , description still loves us sending jesus one attempts reconcile mankind humorous , notion knowing , powerful god must attempt reconcile lowly creations realize possible penetrate logic , chance might consider omnipotent god need attempt anything , attempt reconcile implies lack omniscience \? projecting human weaknesses onto god also , 're 1 reconcile kind loving god ! ! judeo christian view sin one time immediately punishable death \? killing people sinning god 's way showing kindness love \? sinning face god punishable immediate death several ot passages back god god humans sinners , thus pre jesus humans punished death n't punished sin , course , god changed required brutal , sadistic sacrifice blood order allow us sin without immediate death cannot tolerate sin midst yet changed sadistic murder son made tolerant sins besides , midst everywhere , statement meaningless sin hell , surely midst well also , given knowing , must eternal knowledge commit sins , well , tolerance anything absolute nonsense , unless god indeed knowing powerful , unless n't take personal interest everyday affairs claim israelites knew ! still , chose disobey destroyed people kind loving \? relevant claim kindness made reference god nature creations victims issue god gave every break could end , really choice matter see knowing god know ultimate outcome would , powerful god choice matter seeing failing achieve salvation , sent son die us ultimate sin offering miss something \? give indication kind loving god require sadistic human sacrifice allow botched creations achieve salvation \? 2 fact longer admission part made mistake \? sent son consolation us , love note answer physically follows question , fail discern connection two way , \? 3 living age grace , mean sins , god us eternal hell die , rather killing us immediately \? , eternal damnation example kind loving god ! ! \? hey , let 's fair moment kind loving mean free ride \? way , note record n't answer questions amount give take relationship parents supposed kind loving mean children whatever want \? ! part parent means administering punishment child fault death eternal damnation idea correctional punishment \? hope n't parent part parent means giving instruction god tests us trial life may grow stronger teaches right wrong quite elaborate fantasy 've constructed , sadly lacks basis reality also address questions raised consequences actions made clear us , heaven hell god follow warned us , would good parent god describe good parent , tyrant parenting , parent issues warning follow , children take parent 's words seriously god telling us ears hear life 's trials , see folly rather warns us consequences rejecting comes time judgement sorry , god bible whose rules follow , god koran \? vedas \? book koresh \? oh , yes , 's clear follow \? bully
emarsh hernes sun eng sun com \( eric marsh \) subject cults \( keeps going \? \) organization sun lines 26 nntp posting host hernes sun article sbuckley sfu ca sbuckley fraser sfu ca \( stephen buckley \) writes muttiah ecn purdue edu \( ranjan muttiah \) writes mr clinton said today horrible tragedy waco fiasco remind join cults dangers , began scratching head thinking \( bad sign \) , n't mainstream religions \( case christianity 7th day adventist particular \) keep guys going \? n't mr clinton condemning religion \? , n't cult \? bad thoughts well depends whether take literal dictionary definition cult say faiths cults , take social context view cult allows recognize mainstream religions socially acceptable cults groups involve techniques brain washing characteristics define oppressive best word cult behaviour understanding academic use word cult group people oriented around single authority figure need religious however , seen plenty religious cults , including mainstream eric
holfeltz lstc2vm stortek com subject merlin , mithras magick nntp posting host lstc2vm stortek com organization storagetek sw engineering x newsreader nnr vm 1 3 2 lines 31 article anarky tch org anarky tch org \( \) writes 've read many things like past , yet quite blatant comparison christian pagan , roman myth practice historical \? often merlin myrddin associated roman gods \? often associated mithras \? anyone know mithras originated \? asia \? part \? thyagi abyss com worship predates many ways similar mystery cult , \( worship information available members tests passed stage , new info offered worshipper similar masons one way \) mithras , sun deity \( went darkness , reborn \) , inspired hope fought darkness popular charismatic worship originated persia linked ahura mazda wow , news started know , paul nt fame nasty , get clue , read mysteries ! hey n't anyone read manly p hall 's works \? perhaps might worth try cults threatened eclipse however suffered one fatal flaw accepted free men members took women slaves anyone could get
tph susie sbc com \( timothy p henrion \) subject biblical backing koresh 's 3 02 tape \( cites enclosed \) organization usr lib news organization lines 22 nntp posting host susie sbc com article 1993apr22 1 woods ulowell edu cotera woods ulowell edu writes article sbctri sbc com , tph susie sbc com \( timothy p henrion \) writes please explain koresh defending children burned ever said \? obvious defending , followers , government whether think right wrong another question right , moral right kill kgbatf agents ray cote killing atf agents separate issue point many children died koresh defending call moral right keep children dangerous enviroment order defend \? tim henrion southwestern bell technology resources sbctri sbc com
mathew mathew mantis co uk subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization mantis consultants , cambridge uk x newsreader rusnews v1 02 lines 60 markp \( mark pundurs \) writes mathew mathew mantis co uk writes markp elvis wri com \( mark pundurs \) writes rusnews w165w mantis co uk mathew mantis co uk \( mathew \) writes 's objective physics einstein bohr told us speaking one knows relativity quantum mechanics , say bullshit speaking someone also knows relativity quantum mechanics , say go ahead , punk , make day degree beat degree ok , refer us place einstein 's \( bohr 's \) writings said 's objective physics ' ah , taking everything literal quotation wonder 're confused first , ask decide definition objective \? 's objective reality lsd sufficient prove speaking one taken lsd , say bullshit well , 'll bow superior knowledge one , think detect pattern responses actual support \? take lsd , perception reality come , perceptions \? could striving toward ideal way useful , ideal objective existence \? perfectly efficient power station would convert energy coal electricity absolutely way build perfect power station 's ideal striving towards ideal useful valuable , \? ok , let narrow question useful strive toward \( nonexistent \) objective ethics \? 'd guess might way \? may case people unable evaluate complex moral issues rather leaving behave , might better offer abstract \( nonexistent objective \) system ethics strive towards , coded rules n't derive tend feel pretty much morality anyway mathew
mathew mathew mantis co uk subject moral relativism agree \? \( 2000 etc \) organization mantis consultants , cambridge uk x newsreader rusnews v1 02 lines 111 frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes article rusnews w165w mantis co uk mathew mathew mantis co uk writes got one similarly , moral relativist judge one moral syste better another every possible circumstance , however , preclude judging one moral system better specific set circumstances preclude set moral relativists collectively judging moral system , set circumstances agree k , makes sense \( i'm serious , 've explained something never understood \) grins , suppose almost agree set circumstances called reality \? live happily ever \) seriously , agreed circumstances 're , suspect 'd agree best course action unfortunately , confidence situation ever arise us think 's big god sky , n't think 've chosen god , others disagree think infallible , others think otherwise disagreements circumstances , 's little hope everyone agreeing say , practical intents purposes , frame reference thus good , n't approximately objective , way usually expect speeding bullet outrun snail \? yes think , example , small number people would hold 's frame reference gassing six million jews good 's probably close objective moral value 've encountered life far example , hear bomb crowded area , n't rather sensible first guess immoral act , even though conceivably might tail end case would justify \? well , think example 's poor bomb 's iraq , example , dropped american plane , many people would hold moral act weasel word use describe frame reference , n't objective reality values \? i'm sorry , ca n't parse objective reality values could tr \? objective reality values values real even face disagreement still n't quite see 're trying say assume values mean moral values , yes \? case , mean real \? real moral value , opposed unreal one \? mean say values real horses , whatever understand horse real pretty much mean value real hmm moral values perceptible physical presence \? saying moral systems better others , opinion , get infinite regress sorry , way infinite regress \? looks extremely finite meant 's never opinion right , chain ends right buck stops 's infinite regress 've clarified understanding supermajority relativists agree thus wrong almost frames reference , 're saying something practical intents purposes different i'm saying right key point , however , moral issues get 99 9 people agree outcome frames reference \( agree frames reference \) get justification saying moral system terrorist inferior man peace sorry , 's provide justification asserting moral system terrorist inferior man peace ca n't provide justification works possible circumstances logically possible , actually possible \? ca n't manage either killing hitler using car bomb would terrorist act , admit could n't exactly condemn although tricky philosophical issues hindsight mean , stretching possible include events atoms terminal switching places terminal turns upside , think likely circumstances arise terrorism superior peace think circumstances already arisen terrorism would better peace better terms numbers innocent people killed assuming successful terrorism , course mathew
mathew mathew mantis co uk subject 's complete disagreement \? \( stuff \) organization mantis consultants , cambridge uk x newsreader rusnews v1 02 lines 63 actually talk abortion related comments , believe frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes article rusnews w165w mantis co uk mathew mathew co uk writes frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes specifically , 'd like know relativism concludes two people grotesquely disagree \( \) right \( b \) one wrong , sometimes \( though perhaps rarely \) pretty good idea \( c \) one wrong , never information , make best guess really must make decision \( \) idea right moral judgement meaningless \( implying whether peace better war , e g , meaningless question , need discussed correct answer \) \( e \) something else short , positive assertion would nice whose point view would like know relativism concludes \? one people involved argument , third person observing \? 've come responding another posts , pennies dropped would clarify would answer point view disinterested observers perhaps observer likely position position b \( b disagree \) future , conclusion binding time well , observer x likely 's position b 's , agrees b making appropriate observations inferences regarding situation , would expect conclude right answer hopefully would factor would allow make judgement regarding answer accept , hand , disagrees principles either b , suspect would make decision favour one unfortunately case moral arguments answers perspectives instance , completely unable come conclusion regarding whether abortion allowed , perspective ideal world , living things would right life ideal world , women would absolute right like bodies clearly way resolve favour principles therefore agree compromise solution allowing abortion certain time conception , deciding time based various \( sometimes ill defined \) criteria also sensible move , think , lets people make decisions \( within reason \) 's worth , reasonably happy current uk abortion law similarly , situation 's left yugoslavia horrible mess , really ca n't see way sort conclusion , n't even know enough imagine sort compromise one might manage mathew
watson sce carleton ca \( stephen watson \) subject koresh doctrine 4 4 organization carleton university lines 64 f gautjw ccsvax sfasu edu writes article watson mariner sce carleton ca , watson sce carleton ca \( stephen watson \) writes question seem fundamentalists \( stephen tice , cotera , joe gaut , et al \) \( apologies 've , 've started reading r since bd disaster know cotera fundy \) defending koresh beliefs example true christianity persecution big bad secular state opinion reported sexual habits \? reports accurate , say quality christianity \? allegations part big cover \? thank , steve refreshing someone accuse christian hope enough evidence get conviction certain mean fundy part term fundamentalist wide variety uses refer use refer christians take conservative approach bible , distinct liberals actually believe jesus messiah son god wish follow way , plead guilty would use word christian \( unqualified \) describe someone definition applied btw , applies deletia joe gaut indicates interest bd disaster civil liberties issue , attempt justify koresh 's beliefs practices agree joe group wants believe whatever god invisible pink unicorns go live together group sex , sex , sex leaders \( children \) , , much might believe misguided , think legal right hope investigation start determining whether feds legitimate reason going koresh first place \( moving consider wisdom various tactics used \) joe goes dispute child abuse allegations 'll \( \) accept , unless someone evidence support allegations \? actually n't thinking \( alleged \) child abuse , reports sex , fathered children , several women cult agree legal matter consenting adults stephen tice seems defending koresh 's beliefs practices specifically christian perspective , civil liberties perspective think question really aimed joe \( possibly ray cote either , seems also taking political angle \) , stephen tice steve watson k watson sce carleton ca carleton university , ontario opinion opinion assert \( opinion ! opinion \) somebody touched making everything new burned life like bolt blue somebody touched know bruce
markp elvis wri com \( mark pundurs \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality nntp posting host elvis wri com organization wolfram research , inc lines 28 ursa bear com halat pooh bears \( jim halat \) writes article markp elvis wri com , markp elvis wri com \( mark pundurs \) writes , 's ! sorry , jim , idea theory explaining myriad distinctly different observations merely model sensible people accept phobia objective reality notwithstanding first , phobia objective reality i'm simply saying scientific model atom probably really i'm saying 's object sources properties measure atomic theory n't made clear i'm glad clarified ! 're \( physical \) objectivist , , right \? take light another example two theories particle wave one fails predict behavior light point particle wave \? tell 're sensible one ! next question \? \) mark pundurs resemblance opinions wolfram research , inc purely coincidental
subject rawlins debunks creationism rfox charlie usd edu \( rich fox , univ south dakota \) reply rfox charlie usd edu organization university south dakota computer science dept nntp posting host charlie lines 33 article bdi lll winken llnl gov , dk imager \( dave knapp \) writes article sunfish usd edu rfox charlie usd edu writes simply put , evolution creation looked properly theory fact vs assertion fiction specific example exactly separates reason science nonsense although agree creation nonsense , submit making mistake creationists commonly previous posts , think engaging fallacy false dichotomy consistently characterized science religion rationalism nonsense , fact latter form complete set options neither former , matter wish semi explicit linking evolution called rational atheism could avoided gives creationists fuel often repeated evolution leads atheism dave , dave , take great misrepresentation sense made jump creation \( science \) religion \( see \) characterized science creation science rationalism nonsense , people promote religious beliefs science become nonsense kept belong meaningful useful , virtually tell , said several times group works way , , repeatedly said never said meant anything different , elsewhere , n't think communication skills presume offend people 's spiritual sensibilities , would hope others would mine rich fox , anthro , usouthdakota
bittrolff evans enet dec com \( \) subject kind loving god ! ! lines 12 reply bittrolff evans enet dec com \( \) organization digital equipment corporation article 1993apr20 643 ra royalroads ca , mlee post royalroads ca \( malcolm lee \) writes btw , david koresh jesus christ claimed tell sure \? three days n't passed yet steve bittrolff previous opinion , shared reasonably intelligent person
jmeritt mental mitre org subject rawlins listening devil organization utexas mail news gateway lines 5 nntp posting host cs utexas edu god appeared spoke , saying rawlins listening , taken satanic words ! , tell divine inspiration comes one true god comes satanic \?
lionel cs city ac uk \( lionel \) subject burden proof organization computer science dept , city university , london lines 23 nntp posting host barney cs city ac uk article mentor cc purdue edu sage cc purdue edu \( brian \) writes saw one theist net talking absurdity one saying n't believe god , sure problem arguments assumes burden proof lies atheist wrong ! philosophy one making positive argument must give reasons believing , negative make statement elves exist , would prove positive assertion , person saying elves n't exist negative case prove elves n't exist would omniscient know every inch universe applies god give reasons , \( theist \) make case think addressing wrong issue situation like see elves established fact since touch etc one us says , elves always us says , time elves positive argument \? lionel , lionel cs city ac uk computer vision group city university , london 071 477 8000 ext
markp elvis wri com \( mark pundurs \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality nntp posting host elvis wri com organization wolfram research , inc lines 36 ursa bear com halat pooh bears \( jim halat \) writes article 708 blaze cs jhu edu , arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \( ken arromdee \) writes article rusnews w165w mantis co uk mathew mathew mantis co uk writes 's objective physics einstein bohr told us speaking one knows relativity quantum mechanics , say bullshit speaking someone also knows relativity quantum mechanics , say go ahead , punk , make day degree beat degree simple take physics books , start looking statements say objective physics doubt find might find statements objective length , objective location , objective physics \? \( consider , instance , speed light vacuum invariant sounds awful lot like objective speed light vacuum \) , try confuse construct constructor take look quantum mechanics , many objective observations made well however , physics objective bohr said randomness atomic motion inherent motion einstein said nature deterministic method observation inserts randomness talking exact results neither claimed experimental evidence proved right similar vein , yet experimental evidence particles physicists believe , n't agree either objectively true answer question depends look , guess mark pundurs resemblance opinions wolfram research , inc purely coincidental
markp elvis wri com \( mark pundurs \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality nntp posting host elvis wri com organization wolfram research , inc lines 32 zola esd sgi com cj eno esd sgi com \( c j silverio \) writes markp elvis wri com \( mark pundurs \) writes rusnews w165w mantis co uk mathew mantis co uk \( mathew \) writes 's objective reality lsd sufficient prove speaking one taken lsd , say bullshit oh , experience n't teach perceptions always going get reality , sure ! n't know read anything brain works \? various sensory illusions \? teach accurately reality tricky business 's reality c j silverio cj sgi com well sf ca us last friday , april 16 , 1943 , forced interrupt work laboratory middle afternoon proceed home , affected remarkable , combined slight dizziness albert hofmann mark pundurs resemblance opinions wolfram research , inc purely coincidental
subject right \? casper c knies isscck byuvm bitnet organization brigham young university lines 78 joakim ruud \( joakimr ifi uio \) writes recently , 've asked rather interesting question right god lives \( always assuming god , course ! \) \? \? infinite wisdom , made perfectly clear n't live according rules , burn hell well , right god make desicion \? let 's say , sake argument , god creates every one us \( directly indirectly , n't matter \) happens , first creates us , turns us lose well , n't ask created let 's make analogue scientist creates unique living creature \( happened , even patented ! ! ! \) , right expect behave certain matter , die \? dear joakim , let begin saying excellent questions , asking , find many different explanations respondents latter day saint , believe us \( , , etc \) lived spirit children god father \( hebrews 12 9 \) pre mortal existance order continue eternal progression , earthly time required \( live faith , sight , choose good evil , prepare things become worthy higher order existance \) believe god 's spirit offspring assembled discuss specifics earthly one third chose lucifer 's plan , followed firstborn \( pre mortal jesus christ \) lucifer 's aspirations \( throne stars god isaiah 14 12 17 , etc \) resulted rebellion followers firstborn followed , resulting casting lucifer \( became satan , father lies \) one third hosts heaven \( tail drew third part stars heaven , cast earth revelation 12 4 \) demons \( evil spirits \) get back choice born earth , subject god plan \( good bad , based upon obedience choices \) , made choice individually \( god speaking job wast thou laid foundations earth , morning stars sang together , sons god shouted joy \? job 38 4 7 \) lost knowledge pre mortal existance \( veil forgetful ness , somewhere psalms \) , order live faith , sight may accept scenario , neither quite rely bible alone , offers fragmentary insights particular aspect existence individuals , sons daughters god god impose rules us \? tell god really righteous god likes us believe \? christians flock sheep , unable otherwise follow rest \? hmmmmmmmmmmmm \( christians , definition , flock sheep , following shepherd understand \) event , christians believe theology , one latter day saints believe \( cry heresy accusations perverting doctrines bible , believe myriad interpretations , found various bible study manuals \) , personal conviction pre existance scenario explained , harmony biblical doctrine , dead sea scroll books , , \( jewish \) sources , last least , modern day revelation subject want point sarcasm , mean one deal man convinced acting according god 's , jokke fore believes favour stabbing back \? voltaire casper c knies isscck byuvm bitnet brigham young university isscck vm byu edu ucs computer facilities
uphrrmk msu oscs montana edu \( la \) subject rfd misc taoism reply uphrrmk msu oscs montana edu \( la \) organization montana state university lines 28 article 1993apr22 radian uucp , radian natinst com \( mark \) writes article 1993apr22 coe montana edu uphrrmk gemini oscs montana edu \( jack coyote \) writes sunlight shining ocean universe , mirrored puddle aleph null bottles beer wall , aleph null bottles beer ! take one , pass around aleph null bottles beer wall ! n't amazing always seems another bottle \? aleph one bottles beer wall , aleph one null bottles beer ! , , puddle , mark wow , look pretty ! ! ! ! jimmy crack , n't care , jimmy crack n't care , jimmy crack n't care , zen master 's gone away la , wants take one pass around \( beer , \)
merlyn digibd digibd com \( merlyn leroy \) subject good jesus died \? nntp posting host digibd digibd com organization , incorporated , eden prairie , mn lines 15 jasons atlastele com \( jason smith \) writes several years knew really liked dropping \( lsd \) frankly speaking , n't really care fun anyway n't matter every child wife want tremendously greater risk serious birth defects matter study \( yes , singular \) showed lsd causing birth defects also holds true aspirin \? matter study flat wrong , lsd give greater risk children birth defects \? merlyn leroy
brian lpl arizona edu \( brian ceccarelli 602 621 9615 \) subject good jesus died \? organization lunar planetary laboratory , tucson az lines 192 brian kendig first states master ask truly master \? brian kendig states yet make mind life ground use practice fun getting ! n't start perfect end perfect either never perfect name one person , young old , past present , deem perfect \? good luck know shortcomings , know strengths , live life according decisions make , content abide consequences decisions easily 'll accept praise times life 've made mistakes , yes try never make mistake twice lie know shortcomings clearly shown one shortcomings , two , ignorance bible arrogance demonstrate butchering without even knowing contents regard christ myth examine record lack support conclusion , bet even know word christ means prophet used christ describe son man feel far many people offering far many interpretations supposedly said person really judge yes agree must learn first read bible come interpretation evaluate said check history books well compare someone else 's interpretation make judgment tell truth , 99 said bible needs interpretation much coffee cup needs interpretation remember , bible n't guru 's esoteric guide metaphysics n't take theologian understand said bible bunch testimonies people like addressed people like guys wrote saw heard open diary want tell something want know something , make clear want know n't ideas esoteric rhetoric , simple straight forward language choose roads travel , decide whether want reach end given road turn back long n't always turn back , 's shame need help , seek friends chosen road avoids bible chosen road avoids confrontation living god road n't look appealing rather build road one goes far away confrontation assured , confront one day willingly n't clue i'm saying , either open eyes see open ears listen i'm spouting empty words life , gives meaning see mean hear saying degrading life heard irrational excuses years nothing new saying words , spouting contradictions contradictions give meaning , life must sad say mother loves know , ask \? point definite things 's done , even bring ask , face face say deity loves know , ask \? bingo god loved world , gave son ever lasting life look god given son , even death , hope resurrection know life n't nothing , glorious purpose ca n't even convince exists ! turn eyes away testimony history choose lie n't exist , ignore said thousands years sound exactly , almost verbatim , like lazarus jesus 's story starting luke 16 19 conclusion story bleak one lazarus wound hell story ends like lazarus n't even listen moses prophets , wo n't even believe man rose dead god like carrot , promising untold pleasures 'll suspend disbelief ignore rationality , would choose lie another , matter powerful arrogance best fact , rational several specific cases already cited new statement , show irrationality regards heaven jesus tell something expect heaven jesus expects use brain believe jesus expect either jesus wants willingly come , slave , rather brother share glorious riches pick bible read maintain open mind see whether lying would want live good life \? , die 's n't contradict reason live good life n't good end life n't anybody else good either everyone dies anyway reason lead good life leading good life meaningless meaningless thing \? paragraph demonstrates n't listened single word 've said understand said 's feel went missed point living good life eternal consequences close amusement park life , end , , therefore , time spent amusement park meaningless eternal consequences anyone left earth contradict previous post , said evil things bad , n't matter evil things good things meaningless end anyway go rob bank go tell someone dislike dirty rotten slime bag 's restraining \? life , eternal consequences accountability irrelevant way , think life fun n't intend leave amusement park life close night ! time , truly master i'm sorry , n't feel sacrificing jesus something god 'd worship would , unless sacrifice temporary , case 's really important resurrection sunk \? jesus alive jesus dead \( holy book \) say token , therefore , santa claus delivers toys every xmas n't see \? reason believe say true please give reason ca n't similarly apply santa claus every reason believe jesus says witnesses jesus say true choose unreasonable ignore reasons definition , ignorance santa claus said live north pole squad elves flying ever see flying \? anyone human history seen flying \? anyone seen whose nose red \? hand , people born bethlehem \? really king \? daniel really one court officials \? david solomon really kings israel judah \? really king called \? really attack jerusalem 600 years christ \? really lose battle badly \? really interrogated jesus \? yes , yes , yes history verifies problem discerning truth fiction \? perhaps ca n't evaluate context grimm 's fairy tales apart scientific american suppose treat equal equal telling \? want read scientific american find 's fairy tale \? thereby deity nothing collection verses book , cannot supported without invoking \? get real ever \? go assured really place \? given irrationality , take never used map life believe believe \? given overwhelming evidence well personal experience living god , 'd irrational ignorant fool n't follow jesus
mcelwre cnsvax uwec edu subject law retribution organization university wisconsin eau claire lines 89 law retribution violent crime , racism , bigotry , domestic abuse , rape , police brutality oppression , human rights violations , etc , etc , continue get worse worse spite man made laws levels local ordinances international law man made laws working failure communicate ! perpetrators remain ignorant law universal , cosmic , spiritual law law retribution karma deceived god mocked whatsoever man , shall also reap galatians 6 7 , kjv captivity shall go captivity sword must killed sword patience faith saints revelation 13 10 , kjv goes around comes around law universe real physical law every action equal opposite reaction enforcement , teeth , behind golden rule unto others would others unto perpetrators present become victims future , likely future incarnation victims present perpetrators past , usually previous life needed massive worldwide program education teach present potential perpetrators , convincing manner \( sufficient supporting evidence \) , others done , life next anyone doubts fact reincarnation , related law retribution , read books hereafter , ruth montgomery , describes several kinds evidence supporting reincarnation , including regression past lives 50 accurate mind sometimes make things , especially bad , spontaneous recall \( especially young children , identify recent previous relatives , homes , possessions , etc \) , dream recall past life experiences , deja vu \( familiarity far land traveling first time vacation \) , psychic readings late edgar , even supporting statements christian bible including matthew 17 11 13 \( john baptist reincarnation elias \) john 9 1 2 \( person possibly sin born , unless lived \? ! \) strong interests , innate talents , strong phobias , etc , typically originate person 's past lives example , strong fear swimming traveling water usually results drowned end previous life sometimes person take immediate dislike another person met first time present life , bad encounter previous incarnation people would behave much better toward knew actions present surely reaped future , future incarnation ! information , answers questions , etc , please consult cited sources \( books like hereafter , ruth montgomery \) un altered reproduction dissemination important information encouraged robert e mcelwaine 2nd initiate eckankar , \( agent thereof \)
steven advtech uswest com \( steve novak \) subject part n't understand \? organization u west advanced technologies lines 30 nntp posting host advtech uswest com eeb1 midway uchicago edu writes steve novak writes , course , possibility existed meaning student really gave shit could moment silence , makes sense forcing want participate take part reason organized moment silence \? moment silence n't mean much unless everyone participates otherwise 's silent , \? whole point , maybe everyone n't want participate blindly opposing everything flavor religion utterly idiotic blindly opposing everything flavor religion supported taxpayer money way keep christianity becoming official u religion noticing danger utterly idiotic steve novak ban bomb ! ban pope ! ! steven advtech uswest com
russotto eng umd edu \( matthew russotto \) subject message mr president know happened \? organization project glue , university maryland , college park lines 16 nntp posting host tea eng umd edu keywords success article noose ecn purdue edu tbrent ecn purdue edu \( timothy j brent \) writes check news today , \( ap \) authorities also found state art automatic machine gun investigators know cult 's arsenal carl stern , justice department yeah fire reportedly burned hotter 1000 degrees hot enough make bodies still authorities found gun fully automatic state art n't \? matthew russotto russotto eng umd edu russotto wam umd edu news readers expect disclaimer say police searches seizures make use force \( responsible bodily harm resulting following advice \)
subject albert sabin lippard skyblu ccit arizona edu \( james j lippard \) distribution world , local organization university arizona nntp posting host skyblu ccit arizona edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 lines 26 article ctron news ctron com , king ctron com \( john e king \) writes rfox charlie usd edu writes discussion josephus inserts thanks correct , , assuming josephus fact write jesus , christian \? jack indeed present consensus contrary dr fox saying , however , present consensus longer passage josephus jesus inserted , modified question least modified \( based origen says josephus recognize jesus messiah \) , n't think argument appears context good one \( n't looked context perhaps somebody could give sentences precede follow jesus passage \) jim lippard lippard ccit arizona edu dept philosophy lippard arizvms bitnet university arizona tucson , az 85721
psyrobtw ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( robert weiss \) subject 23 apr 93 god 's promise matthew 3 11 organization university buffalo lines 8 news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host ubvmsb cc buffalo edu baptize water repentance come one powerful , whose fit carry baptize holy spirit fire matthew 3 11 \( niv \)
mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com \( mark wilson \) subject 's next \? mormons jews \? organization ncr engineering manufacturing atlanta atlanta , ga lines 27 vi agate berkeley edu isaackuo skippy berkeley edu \( isaac kuo \) writes merely point valid strategy used every day furthermore , n't know substitute strategy capable apprehending potentially dangerous armed suspects suggest police always knock guns holstered never arrest suspects allowed inspect officers 's badges \? police apprehending potentially dangerous armed suspects \? far reasonably go \? suggest ca n't faked competition \? instead asking individual citizens place risk assuming everyone claims cop , actually cop around police actually made public service announcements saying lady driving night see blue lights flashing behind pull reach well lit , preferably occupied place , gas station etc even 've got deadly enemies may pretend cops , 's excuse murder police would n't murder , would self defense mob rule n't prettier merely mob calls government ai n't charity using someone else 's money wilson 's theory relativity go back far enough , 're related mark wilson atlantaga ncr com
jaskew spam maths adelaide edu au \( joseph askew \) subject message mr president know happened \? organization statistics , pure applied mathematics , university adelaide lines 21 article netcom com bskendig netcom com \( brian kendig \) writes b645zaw utarlg uta edu \( stephen tice \) writes one way another much patience bad could n't wait prospect god 's message much take \? believe david koresh really jesus christ \? well lets see long haired nut case sexual surrounded lot losers without brain miserable meaningless death boot sounds like fits bill ! joseph david koresh fried you' askew joseph askew , gauche proud autumn stillness , see pleiades , jaskew spam maths adelaide edu remote thorny deserts , fell grief disclaimer \? sue , see care north tents , sky must end somwhere , actually , rather like brenda beyond pale , river murmurs
mccullou snake2 cs wisc edu \( mark mccullough \) subject burden proof organization university wisconsin , madison computer sciences dept lines 29 article 1993apr26 ousrvr oulu fi phoenix oulu fi \( kari tikkanen \) writes math exam burden proof says prove elements set \( n divided 30 leaves 5 remainder , n prime , n integer \) exist well , mathematics formal science real world may different thing entertainment \( company \) sell computer programs saying virus safe doesn`t burden proof viruses don`t exist floppies \? n't think assumption turns software virus , prove fact court get damages theoretically suppossed able get damages , give evidence virus came software since computer company , proven guilty phoenix oulu fi kari tikkanen ! ! b ! begin sf oulu ! ! ! f \( x \) dx ! eq \( \) finland ! vega ! ! end please , pascal ! ! ! \) mccullou whipple cs wisc edu never program drink beer 2 time n't work
phaedrus iastate edu \( james r \) subject message mr president know happened \? reply phaedrus iastate edu \( james r \) organization iowa state university lines 32 article visser convex convex com , visser convex com \( lance visser \) writes netcom com bskendig netcom com \( brian kendig \) writes b645zaw utarlg uta edu \( stephen tice \) writes one way another much patience bad could n't wait prospect god 's message much take \? believe david koresh really jesus christ \? cut water , fire trucks present fbi atf go blasting holes firing gas munitions building burns , almost everyone dies probably n't bother much , bothers many people dont believe particularly koresh message four atf agents 90 branch davidians dead crazy tactics part atf fbi attorney general tells us todays events suppose save compound blowing holes building gassing inside supposed save \? personally , think mrs o'leary 's cow knocked lantern \) phaedrus
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject good jesus died \? organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 28 article 1993apr22 atlastele com , jasons atlastele com \( jason smith \) wrote several years knew really liked dropping \( lsd \) frankly speaking , n't really care fun anyway n't matter every child wife want tremendously greater risk serious birth defects several years knew really liked sex many women could convice frankly speaking , n't care n't care putting one risk \( well future partners \) seems lived fairly background far traditional , mostly working , working , working maybe 's clear indication way lived life produced certain amount anxiety needed released religion one possible medicine stable environment n't still produce situation feel guilt one possible explanation feel burden , n't felt far regards , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
psyrobtw ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( robert weiss \) subject 26 apr 93 god 's promise matthew 5 6 organization university buffalo lines 7 news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host ubvmsb cc buffalo edu blessed hunger thirst righteousness , filled matthew 5 6 \( niv \)
tph drake sbc com \( timothy p henrion \) subject biblical backing koresh 's 3 02 tape \( cites enclosed \) organization usr lib news organization lines 48 nntp posting host drake sbc com article utarlg uta edu b645zaw utarlg uta edu \( stephen \) writes article 1r17j9 5ie sbctri sbc com , netd susie sbc com \( \) writes name \? \( stephen \) writes think david koresh n't solid structure , sound biblical backing hour long tape broadcast , n't think anyone really cares solid structure sermon tells quite lot man i'm curious referring koresh man \? upper case \? 's deaths 's responsible concern people spokesman people \? never claimed spokesman people assumption part people normal values morality would concerned human life sermon structure missed point prophets , psalms , revelation , together , provide rich view special event wedding burning children part special event \? comment stems realization love lord , human imperfect whatever preach , matter eloquent , corrupted little difference know master 's voice recognize gem stone amidst rock also lesson ear hear know master 's voice \? master care \? eloquent , corrupt , preaching may little difference suspect made big difference died compound tim henrion southwestern bell technology resources sbctri sbc com
nrp st andrews ac uk \( norman r paterson \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization st andrews university , scotland lines 16 article fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes article 1993apr21 st andrews ac uk , nrp st andrews ac uk \( norman r paterson \) writes article 8mo fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes ok , n't claim absolute moral system claim objective one \? 'll assume answer yes , apologies 've spent two solid months arguing thing objective moral system exists jon apologies , 've paying attention norman
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject 's next \? mormons jews \? organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 16 article 1993apr21 gn ecn purdue edu , mechalas gn ecn purdue edu \( john p mechalas \) wrote either way , evidence support theory bd 's burned made serious implication fbi responsible fire destruction people done put doubt started fire without providing evidence back claim fbi responsible last night cnn reported fbi infrared pictures showing fires started three places time would indicate something resembling accident cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject 's next \? mormons jews \? distribution usa organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 17 article 1993apr21 ra royalroads ca , mlee post royalroads ca \( malcolm lee \) wrote article blue cis pitt edu , rjl pitt edu \( richard j loether \) writes yes , course , matthew 10 34 35 suppose come bring peace earth peace come bring sword remember armor god \? sword christians wield word god , bible sorry malcolm , rather believe jesus cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject laws god \( kind loving god ! ! \) organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 30 article 1993apr22 ra royalroads ca , mlee post royalroads ca \( malcolm lee \) wrote eternal damnation consequence choice one makes rejecting god choose jump cliff , hardly blame god going splat bottom knows choose jump , die prevent making choice fact , sent son stand edge cliff tell everyone lies prove point , jesus took plunge god able rise seen example christ chosen jump i'm trying tell jump else 'll go splat n't listen wo n't stop decide jump ask check taking plunge owe n't like seeing anyone go splat i'm moment interested notion established kierkegaard clearly points possible solution transcendental values n't understand also clearly shows system leap transcendental direction equal words might jump cliff mentioned , time decide direction go actually cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
cypress west sun com \( mark \) subject cybele organization sunsoft south lines 29 distribution world reply cypress west sun com nntp posting host article aims unc edu , med unc edu \( hunt \) writes relation name \? paragraph seems indicate might gives etymology coming ancient greek sigma iota beta upsilon lambda lambda alpha \( b ih l l \) claimed come sigma iota omicron beta upsilon lambda lambda alpha \( b ih l l \) \( read properly \) turn came \( athenian \) theta epsilon omicron beta omicron upsilon lambda \( th eh b ih l ae \) n't know much attis , would n't surprise learn god tied athenian capital alpha tau tau iota upsilon sigma \( k u \) list etymology cybele since noun , suggest greek spelling word would much closer two words perhaps cybele french latin spelling \?
daveb pogo wv tek com \( dave butler \) subject good jesus died \? organization tektronix , inc , wilsonville , lines 169 brian ceccarelli presents us fallacy false dichotomy stating must accept every thing books attributed peter , must discount every book antiquity \( 1 \) peter died two millenia ago original letters wrote long since decayed dust alive today could question existence alexander great , iii , nero , caligula , josephus , cyrus great , \? documents decayed dust brian , another excuse \? mr ceccarelli , seem stating must accept accept everything written every historical document somehow doubt thus since doubt accept everything written every historical document , would ask thereby objectively justify complete faith words books attributed peter shall give example document antiquity , sure reject dates time ii \( first presented matthew wiener \) inscriptions carved soon battle , carved 's specific approval true originals , rather mere copies account records battle kadesh \( circa 1285 bc \) , occurred river , \( 100 miles south aleppo \) egyptians battle hittites , victory place inscriptions survived near perfect form record pretty much single defeated hittites , separated troops note egyptian back forth first third person following miriam ancient egyptian literature volume ii majesty caused forces foes fall faces , one upon , fall , water like griffin attacked countries , alone infantry one stood looking back live , ra loves , father favors , everything majesty told truth , presence infantry \( note paragraph records divine word , also thousands witnesses event heart battle \) majesty drove charged forces foe , alone , none majesty proceeded look found 2500 ringing way officer , , soldier army , shield bearer infantry , yielded , one stood firm fight majesty spoke , father amun \? right father ignore son \? deeds matter ignore \? walk stand word \? neglected order gave great , great lord egypt , allow aliens step path ! , amun , ignorant god \? made many great monuments , call , father amun , among host strangers countries , alone , 's none ! many people nothing , amun helpful came command mouth , amun , command ! though prayed distant land , voice southern found amun came called , gave hand called behind near forward , , father , hand , prevail hundred thousand men , lord victory , lover ! found heart stout , breast joy , succeeded , like mont slaughtered among , one looked behind , one turned around , whoever fell rise one called saying man among us , seth great strength , person deeds man doings , one unique , fights hundred thousand without soldiers , come quick , flee , seek life breathe air attempts get close , hands , limbs grow limp one cannot hold either bow , one sees come racing along ! majesty hunted like griffin , slaughtered among see brian , original manuscripts recording miraculous battle hittites reject completely true \? suspect , , also , words question existence alexander great , iii , nero , caligula , josephus , cyrus great , \? also thereby question documents \? problem nothing approach many ancient people used mix bit fancy facts say must either accept peter \( rest new testament \) accept records antiquity , forces thereby , accept verity documents probably find completely credible argument many people testified jesus , must true going pass testimony \? going call three thousand years worth testimony shepherds irs agents royal officials kings computer programmers , fiction \? scoff keyboard , near complete ignorance testimonies , going say complete hooey \? would audacious display arrogance \? actually think know better king solomon , king david , even abraham lincoln \? three points first , argumentum ad \( ie appeal popular opinion \) cannot vote truth instance , millions hindu 's past present testify reality , constitute actual evidence existence \? would answer question regards testimony hindus scoff keyboard , near complete ignorance testimonies , going say complete hooey \? scoff , objectively justify special pleading \? second , clear king solomon king david testified jesus claim clear , make true third , quite arguable abraham lincoln christian , public private view christianity fact much discussion day \( yes , publically accused oh \) presently collecting faq lincoln 've previously done tyre , jefferson etc later , dave butler earlier views christian scheme salvation human origin scriptures , become clearer stronger advancing years see reason thinking shall ever change abraham lincoln judge j wakefield death willie lincoln
eeb1 quads uchicago edu \( e elizabeth bartley \) subject part n't understand \? reply eeb1 midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 44 article 1993apr26 advtech uswest com steven advtech uswest com \( steve novak \) writes eeb1 midway uchicago edu writes steve novak writes , course , possibility existed meaning student really gave shit could moment silence , makes sense forcing want participate take part reason organized moment silence \? moment silence n't mean much unless everyone participates otherwise 's silent , \? whole point , maybe everyone n't want participate maybe without somebody set time n't good deleted list non religious reasons one might want moment silence dead classmate maybe everyone n't want silent teachers give pompous non religious speeches assembly know n't \? blindly opposing everything flavor religion utterly idiotic blindly opposing everything flavor religion supported taxpayer money way keep christianity becoming official u religion please provide documentation opposing things actively religious \( e g actual prayer , amen moment silence , mandatory classes religion \) things possible uncertain religious implications \( e g moments silence , bible shelves reading period \) way prevent state religion pro choice anti roe e elizabeth bartley abortions safe , legal , early , rare
mcelwre cnsvax uwec edu subject larsonian astronomy , physics , creation organization university wisconsin eau claire lines 556 following partial summary theory universe includes little known description creation solar system larsonian astronomy physics orthodox physicists , astronomers , astrophysicists claim looking unified field theory forces universe explained single set laws equations systematically ignoring suppressing excellent one 30 years ! late physicist dewey b larson 's comprehensive general unified theory physical universe , calls reciprocal system , built two fundamental postulates physical mathematical natures space time \( 1 \) physical universe composed entirely one component , motion , existing three dimensions , discrete units , two reciprocal forms , space time \( 2 \) physical universe conforms relations ordinary mathematics , absolute , geometry euclidean two postulates , larson developed complete theoretical universe , using various combinations , vibrational , rotational , vibrational rotational motions , concepts ward ward scalar motions , speeds relation speed light \( larson called unit velocity natural datum \) step development , larson able match objects theoretical universe objects real physical universe , \( photons , sub atomic particles incomplete atoms , charges , atoms , molecules , globular star clusters , galaxies , binary star systems , solar systems , white dwarf stars , pulsars , quasars , etc \) , even objects yet discovered \( exploding galaxies , gamma ray bursts \) applying theory new model atom , larson able precisely accurately calculate inter atomic distances crystals molecules , thermal expansion solids , properties matter described good detail , fancy complex mathematics , books books dewey b larson following complete list late physicist dewey b larson 's books comprehensive general unified theory physical universe early books print , still available inter library loan structure physical universe \( 1959 \) case nuclear atom \( 1963 \) beyond newton \( 1964 \) new light space time \( 1965 \) quasars pulsars \( 1971 \) nothing motion \( 1979 \) 9 50 substitute 8 3 billion super collider last four chapters explain chemical bonding neglected facts science \( 1982 \) universe motion \( 1984 \) final solutions astrophysical mysteries basic properties matter \( 1988 \) last books published north pacific publishers , p box , portland , , available via inter library loan local university public library n't several , including last one , available international society unified science \( \) , e ave , salt lake city , utah organization started promote larson 's theory related publications , including quarterly journal reciprocity physicist dewey b larson 's background physicist dewey b larson retired engineer \( chemical electrical \) 91 years old died may 1989 bachelor science degree engineering science oregon state university developed comprehensive general unified theory physical universe trying develop way compute chemical properties based elements used larson 's lack fancy ph degree might one reason orthodox physicists ignoring , valid reason sometimes takes relative outsider clearly see forest trees time , clear books also knew orthodox physics astronomy well physicist astronomer , well enough point contradictions , ad hoc assumptions , principles impotence , , etc larson funds , etc experimentally test theory necessary simply compared various parts theory experimental observational data many cases , explanation fit better self consistent theory much orthodox physicists astronomers ! claim looking unified field theory works , ignoring one 30 years ! modern physics explain physical universe well parts larson 's books full quotations leading orthodox physicists astronomers agree remember , crystal spheres , , flat earth theory , etc , also seemed explain well , later proved conceptually wrong prof frank h meyer , professor emeritus uw superior , strong proponent larson 's theory , \( still \) president larson 's organization , international society unified science , editor quarterly journal reciprocity moved minneapolis retiring super collider ! superconducting super collider , texas anywhere else would gross waste money , contribute almost nothing scientific value physicists n't realize , , according comprehensive general unified theory late physicist dewey b larson , described books , strange goofy particles \( , , alleged quarks , etc \) finding existing \( fermi lab , cern , etc \) really atoms anti matter , created high energy colliding beams , quickly like cosmic rays incompatible environment larger expensive collider create elements anti matter physicists seen , physicists even confused ! types anti matter atoms worth 8 3 billion cost \? ! ! n't much important uses wasted money \? ! another thing consider primary proposed location texas serious growing problem kind fire ants eating insulation underground cables much poisoning ground ground water required keep ants \? ! naming super collider ronald , proposed , totally absurd ! built , named leading particle physicist larsonian anti matter larson 's comprehensive general unified theory physical universe , anti matter simple case opposite charges types particles rates vibrations rotations photons made , relation vibrational rotational equivalents speed light , larson calls unit velocity natural datum larson 's theory , positron actually particle matter , anti matter positron electron meet , rotational vibrations \( charges \) rotations respective photons \( made \) neutralize larson 's theory , anti matter half physical universe three dimensions time , one dimension space , exists reciprocal relationship material half larsonian relativity perihelion point orbit planet mercury observed precisely measured advance rate 574 seconds arc per century 531 seconds advance attributed via calculations gravitational perturbations planets \( venus , earth , jupiter , etc \) remaining 43 seconds arc used help prove einstein 's general theory relativity late physicist dewey b larson achieved results closer 43 seconds general relativity , instead using special relativity one books , applied lorentz transformation high orbital speed mercury larson totally rejected general relativity another mathematical fantasy also rejected special relativity , including parts mass increases near speed light , use lorentz transform doppler shifts , \( quasars red shifts greater 1 000 really moving faster speed light , although motion away us time \) larson 's comprehensive general unified theory physical universe , three dimensions time instead one two dimensions measured material half physical universe one dimension measure clock time low relative speeds , values two dimensions negligible high speeds , become significant , lorentz transformation must used fudge factor larson often used term coordinate time writing regard mass increases , proven atomic accelerators acceleration drops toward zero near speed light formula acceleration acceleration force mass , \( f \) orthodox physicists ignoring third factor force larson 's theory , mass stays constant force drops toward zero force actually motion , combinations motions , relations motions , including inward outward scalar motions expansion universe , example , outward scalar motion inherent universe result called big bang \( yet another mathematical fantasy \) universe motion wish recommend everyone book universe motion , dewey b larson , 1984 , north pacific publishers , \( p box , portland , oregon \) , 456 pages , indexed , hardcover contains astrophysical portions general unified theory physical universe developed author , unrecognized genius , thirty years ago contains final solutions astrophysical mysteries , including formation galaxies , binary multiple star systems , solar systems , true origin 3 degree background radiation , cosmic rays , gamma ray bursts , true nature quasars , pulsars , white , exploding galaxies , etc contains astronomers astrophysicists looking , ready seriously consider open minds ! following example theory 's success first book 1959 , structure physical universe , larson predicted existence exploding galaxies , several years astronomers started finding necessary consequence larson 's comprehensive theory quasars discovered , immediate related explanation also gamma ray bursts astro physicists astronomers still scratching heads mysterious gamma ray bursts originally thought originate neutron stars disc galaxy new gamma ray telescope earth orbit detecting directions uniformly , source locations space correspond known objects , \( except cases directional coincidence \) gamma ray bursts necessary consequence general unified theory physical universe developed late physicist dewey b larson according page 386 book universe motion , published 1984 , gamma ray bursts coming supernova explosions anti matter half physical universe , larson calls cosmic sector relationship anti matter material halves physical universe , way connected together , gamma ray bursts pop material half anywhere space , seemingly random \( source locations bursts correspond known objects , come directions uniformly \) wonder close us space source location would gamma ray burst kill life earth ! would way predict one , stop ! perhaps mass past , blamed impacts comets asteroids , actually caused nearby gamma ray bursts ! larsonian binary star formation half stars galaxy vicinity sun binary double orthodox astronomers astrophysicists still satisfactory theory form many binary star systems actually likely consequence comprehensive general unified theory physical universe developed late physicist dewey b larson try summarize explanation , detailed chapter 7 book universe motion books first , according larson , stars generate energy fusion small fraction comes slow gravitational collapse rest results complete annihilation heavy elements \( heavier iron \) element destructive temperature limit heavier element , lower limit star 's internal temperature increases grows mass via absorption decay products cosmic rays , gradually reaching destructive temperature limit lighter lighter elements internal temperature star reaches destructive temperature limit iron , type supernova explosion ! much iron present related structure iron atoms atom building process , larson explains books better star explodes , lighter material outer portion star blown outward space less speed light heavier material center portion star already bouncing around close speed light , high temperature explosion pushes material speed light , expands outward time , equivalent inward space , often actually disappears long periods time , masses start fall back gravitationally material blown outward space starts form red giant star material blown outward time starts form white dwarf star stars start moving back toward main sequence opposite directions h r diagram chances two masses falling back exact location space , making single lone star , near zero instead form binary system , orbiting according larson , white dwarf star inverse density gradient \( surface \) , material center widely dispersed \( blown outward \) time eliminates need resort mathematical fantasies degenerate matter , neutron stars , black holes , etc larsonian solar system formation mass heavy material center exploding star relatively small , , instead single white dwarf star , several mini white dwarf stars \( around red giant star , probably still far away three dimensional time affected heat , etc \) become planets ! chapter 7 universe motion , larson used information , principles comprehensive general unified theory physical universe , derive version bode 's law black hole fantasy ! heard physicist stephen w hawking recently completed theoretical mathematical analysis two black holes merging together single black hole , concluded new black hole would mass sum two original black holes result recognized everyone red flag , causing widespread doubt whole idea black holes , etc ! reading physicist dewey b larson 's books comprehensive general unified theory physical universe , especially book universe motion , clear black holes nothing mathematical fantasies ! strange object cygnus x 1 unusually massive white dwarf star , black hole orthodox astronomers physicists badly want prove theory way , understand much publicity given physicist stephen hawking physicists astronomers seem acting hawking 's severe physical problem somehow makes wiser ! wish attention given physicist dewey b larson still alive widespread publicity attention given larson 's theory , books , organization \( international society unified science \) electro magnetic propulsion heard concept many years ago , connection ufo 's unorthodox inventors , never able find work , constructed found possible clue might work pages 112 113 book basic properties matter , late physicist dewey b larson , describes part larson 's comprehensive general unified theory physical universe quote one paragraph indicated preceding chapter , development theory universe motion arrives totally different concept nature electrical resistance electrons , find , derived environment brought volume larson 's book nothing motion physical processes operation produce electrons substantial quantities , , although motions constitute electrons , many cases , absorbed atomic structures , opportunities utilizing type motion structures limited follows always large excess free electrons material sector material half universe , uncharged uncharged state electrons cannot move respect extension space , inherently rotating units space , relation space space motion open space , therefore , uncharged electron remains permanently location respect natural reference system , manner photon context stationary spatial reference system uncharged electron , like photon , carried outward speed light progression natural reference system material thus exposed flux electrons similar continual bombardment photons radiation meanwhile processes , discussed later , whereby electrons returned environment electron population material aggregate earth therefore equilibrium level note larson 's theory , uncharged electrons also , basically photons light particular frequency \( unit frequency \) spinning around one axis particular rate \( unit rate \) \( unit velocity speed light , vibrational rotational equivalents speed light , according larson 's theory \) might labels mixed larson saying outer space filled mass less un charged electrons flying around speed light ! true , electro magnetic propulsion fields spacecraft might able interact electrons , particles space , perhaps giving charge \( mass \) shooting toward rear achieve propulsion \( larson 's theory , electrical charge one dimensional rotational vibration particular frequency \( unit frequency \) rotation particle \) paragraph quoted might also give clue confused lightning generated clouds suppression larsonian physics comprehensive general unified theory physical universe developed late physicist dewey b larson available 30 years , published 1959 first book structure physical universe totally un scientific hawking , wheeler , sagan , sacred priests religion call science \( physics , astronomy , etc \) , well scientific literature education systems , totally ignore larson 's theory larson 's theory excellent explanations many things puzzling orthodox physicists astronomers , gamma ray bursts nature quasars larson 's theory deserves honestly openly discussed physics , chemistry , astronomy journals , u elsewhere least basic principles larson 's theory included related courses uw ec , uw madison , cambridge , cornell university , elsewhere , students kept dark worthy alternative dogma fed information , answers questions , etc , please consult cited sources \( especially larson 's books \) un altered reproduction dissemination important partial summary encouraged robert e mcelwaine b , physics astronomy , uw ec
lwb cs utexas edu \( lance w bledsoe \) subject line copy book mormon organization cs dept , university texas austin lines 13 distribution usa nntp posting host im4u cs utexas edu keywords bom , book mormon , mormon article 1993apr23 ads com wmoore ads com \( william moore \) writes anyone provide ftp site obtain online version book mormon please email internet address possible copy interested \? lance lance w bledsoe lwb im4u cs utexas edu \( 512 \) 258 0112 ye shall know truth , truth shall make free
jmeritt mental mitre org \( jim meritt system admin \) subject booze , thus lord ! organization utexas mail news gateway lines 8 nntp posting host cs utexas edu jeremiah 25 27 therefore thou shalt say unto , thus saith lord hosts , god israel drink ye , drunken , , fall , rise , sword send among 25 28 shall , refuse take cup thine hand drink , shalt thou say unto , thus saith lord hosts ye shall certainly drink
lwb cs utexas edu \( lance w bledsoe \) subject 's next \? mormons jews \? organization cs dept , university texas austin lines 32 nntp posting host im4u cs utexas edu article juts ccc amdahl com agr00 juts ccc amdahl com \( anthony g rose \) writes , deceive everone thinking latter day saints undergone undue persecution years believing religion , perhaps would like tell us happened mountain meadow massacres killings done blood atonement doctrine , command brigham young \? recently watched episode old west tv show discovery channel \( perhaps e network \) , one hosted kenny rogers episode mormons settled utah , etc large portion broadcast mountain massacre program specifically pointed brigham young knew nothing incident long happened \( telegraph \) , occured result several men bunch settlers amounted mob participants incident prosecuted lds church suggest watch episode \( play \) see \( non mormons \) say lance lance w bledsoe lwb im4u cs utexas edu \( 512 \) 258 0112 ye shall know truth , truth shall make free
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization sgi lines 54 distribution world nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article lefty lefty apple com , lefty apple com \( lefty \) writes particular tibetans advocating increased violence chinese occupiers wrong \? wrong \? think correct thinking well placed bomb six would get headlines , think wrong think set bombs still buddhist maybe seeing chinese cultural genocide tibetans worked well enough tibetans longer buddhist instead willing behave like chinese occupiers every action reward clearly occupation tibet largely ignored hand , people aware occupation mostly full admiration peaceful way tibetans put cost us admire \? zip tibetans currently people peace \? serve well badly \? yes , whether serves well depends whether want buddhist principles political independence without political independence preserve cultural religious traditions \? would increased level violence make terrorists \? chinese would certainly refer terrorists , hitler regime used refer european resistance movements terrorists assuming group advocating course correct , greater attention focussed occupation tibet chinese , tibetans better people peace terrorists \? better way \? proponents pacifism proponents political autonomy \? better time scale \? soviet empire practised cultural genocide something like hundred small minorities , resisted violently , , end soviet empire collapsed least minorities survived minorities fighting one another , violent resistance oppressive empire violence \? jon
arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \( ken arromdee \) subject good jesus died \? organization johns hopkins university cs dept lines 31 article 1993apr26 organpipe uug arizona edu brian lpl arizona edu \( brian ceccarelli 602 621 9615 \) writes baby 's innocence nothing whether baby sinner innocence sin nature two different attributes baby innocent , yet baby sinner two arms two legs \? \? parents \? parents etc anything get \? thing , know arms legs 's therefore generally easy tell whether someone arms legs sinful nature , since require baby actually perform sins , seems totally invisible far know , maybe half babies sinful nature half n't 'd look exactly , since way tell difference born sinners born sinners parents born got nothing earn title sinner get parents , parents , grandparents , etc , infinitum 's bad sinful nature , \? could understand bad always results people committing sins , babies , never commit sins , die , still bad part ca n't merely results people committing sins bad \? first day christmas truelove served leftover turkey ! second day christmas truelove served turkey casserole made leftover turkey days 3 4 deleted flaming turkey wings ! pizza hut commercial \( tlu gic bait \) ken arromdee \( arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \)
magnus acs ohio state edu \( paul \) subject religion marriage nntp posting host top magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university distribution na lines 20 n't sure right newsgroup post , guess misc reason goes getting married june devout \( wisconsin synod \) lutheran would classify strong agnostic weak athiest subject many discussions us really real obstacle n't real difficulties religious differences yet , expect pop children agreed raise children nominally lutheran , lutheran traditions , trying keep open mind sure even possible though feel worst quality religous lack open mind anyway , guess 'll get question anyone situation give suggestions deal \? 've taken attitude far talking lot letting anything get bottled inside sometimes get feeling 're making much bigger actually comments would greatly appreciated also , please e mail responses since n't get chance read group often \( paul
subject rw robert weiss orthodox christian \? brian lpl arizona edu \( brian ceccarelli 602 621 9615 \) organization lunar planetary laboratory , tucson az lines 62 i'm curious know christians ever read books based critique religion , classical text age reason paine , myth maker sometimes good know enemy , want serious research understand sides , solely one right one yes , one examined critique book romans think , benjamin franklin , found amazing benjamin franklin missed whole boat also writings thomas jefferson sitting shelf , amazing much missed studied plato 's theory forms pile junk jesus makes plato aristotle look like psychology , id , ego , freud \? elements truth , jesus explained far better gave reasons thomas paine , benjamin franklin , thomas jefferson mere men screw bible well man put men remember j 's autobiography correctly , thought thomas paine man ever met 's circular reasoning paul says corinthians gospel foolishness world , spiritually , people without spirit god n't clue bible saying point view , 's incredibly circular convenient , mysteriously bizarre see , ca n't arrogance part trust bizarre nonetheless , truth , color blind red green \? remember dot tests 's \? put pictures front supposed identify pattern dots \? eyes perfectly normal , see letters embedded dots slightly different color stand background color blind red green , see anything gray shaded dots dot test appears see pattern normal seeing person see patterns , seem like total anomaly , appear missing universe something hard understand ca n't see anything plain day like bible , word god , believer believer see meaning words see patterns fit together depth consistency , hand , notice non believer n't see thinks weird thinks seeing things look , say , , weird see time sanity check go another christian say , see go , yes x say , thank god , see x truly strangest thing adds little extra dimension phrase , make blind see , deaf hear glad jesus enabled see wish every non believer could see missing
tbrent bank ecn purdue edu \( timothy j brent \) subject message mr president know happened \? keywords success organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 49 article rigel tamu edu mst4298 rigel tamu edu \( mitchell todd \) writes article 1993apr26 scubed com , wilkins scubed com \( darin wilkins \) writes article noose ecn purdue edu tbrent ecn purdue edu \( timothy j brent \) writes check news today , \( ap \) authorities also found state art automatic machine gun investigators know cult 's arsenal carl stern , justice department article mojo eng umd edu russotto eng umd edu \( matthew russotto \) writes yeah fire reportedly burned hotter 1000 degrees hot enough make bodies still authorities found gun fully automatic state art n't \? assuming favorable interpretation measurement \( temperature , rather common us fahrenheit \) , still laboring least 2 misconceptions 1 seem believe steel somewhere around 1000 c actually , melting point iron \( iron \) neighborhood 1400 c even gun found area achieved 1000 c temperature , steel parts gun would deformed , would still trivial identify nature weapon steel may melt , weaken , expand enough load steel , like load steel roof truss , pressure steel parts machine trying expand , steel extensively record , weapon found cult compound , may impossible normal ballistics tests damage done weapon , , anyway , question gun identifiable , tim mitchell todd timothy j brent man come know true happiness , brent bank ecn purdue edu accepts small part infinite universe purdue university spinoza materials science engineering paraphrased
prl dit csiro au \( peter lamb \) subject branch athiests cult \( rawlins debunks creationism \) organization csiro division information technology lines 71 king ctron com \( john e king \) writes scharle lukasiewicz cc nd edu \( scharle \) writes information , checked library congress catalog , list following books francis hitching branch athiests zealots following think mistaken thinking tom scharle atheist find atheists christians among opponents calling opponents branch athiests zealots nothing credibility let try oh yes , doubt infiltrated previous , confident certitude evolutionary biology inflamed passions lack agreement even within warring camps sometimes seems many variations evolutionary theme individual biologists eldridge \( yes 's paleontologist \) natural history evolutionary feb 1982 pg 78 dear taken context 's hard know start quote starts material p 78 , ends material page 81 ! page 78 , 's bit says \( parts left john king 's quote marked \) doubt infiltrated previous , confident certitude evolutionary biology 's last twenty years inflamed passions provoked interesting thought research eldridge goes immediately following butchered quote short , evolutionary biology entered phase creativity hallmark good , active science material page 81 quoted john king butchered even severely mention illustrate words original text prl lack agreement even within warring camps things really uproar days , basic ways looking evolutionary biology minor variants sometimes seems many variations evolutionary theme individual biologists eldridge goes 's way science supposed operate jack sentences creationists misrepresent exuberant , creative doubt controversy evolutionary biology days , actively promoting scientific , john e king , precisely done eldridge 's article personally responsible butchery text pulled creationist propaganda \? owe people reading apology posting misrepresentation peter lamb \( prl dit csiro au \)
lynn anderson dba lynn cs cmu edu subject revised easy read bom available ! x sender mach cs cmu edu \( \) originator sp cs cmu edu nntp posting host sp cs cmu edu organization school computer science , carnegie mellon lines 51 pleased announce revised version easy read book mormon \( former title mormon 's book \) lynn matthews anderson available anonymous ftp \( see information \) addition change title , revised bom shortened several pages \( eliminating many 's 's \) , many \( minor \) errors corrected release includes simplified joseph smith story , testimonies three eight witnesses , words know glossary previous announcement , readers reminded profit endeavor copyrighted work , people welcome make verbatim copies personal use people actual costs printing \( paper , copy center charges \) , may charge anything time making copies , way realize profit use book see notice book precise terms negotiations currently underway mormon publisher vis vis printing distribution bound books \( sorry , i'm wire bound first editions \) make another announcement availability printed copies everything worked ftp information connect via anonymous ftp itc cmu edu , cd pub \( wo n't see anything \) easy read book mormon currently available postscript rtf \( rich text format \) \( ascii , latex , versions made available contact dba andrew cmu edu details \) able print postscript file postscript printer \( apple laserwriter \) let dba know difficulties \( postscript last release problems printers time work better \) rtf standard document interchange format read number word processors , including microsoft word macintosh windows n't postscript printer , may able use rtf file print copy book r r r 1 dba apr 27 13 12 ps r r r 1 dba apr 27 13 13 rtf information project came , please refer article current issue , entitled issues surrounding simple modern english book mormon send inquiries comments lynn matthews anderson hampton street pittsburgh , pa dba lynn cs cmu edu
infonode ingr com \( kermit tensmeyer \) subject rw robert weiss orthodox christian \? organization intergraph corporation , huntsville , al lines 173 article acsu buffalo edu psyrobtw ubvmsd cc buffalo edu \( robert weiss \) writes article 93111 byuvm bitnet , librba byuvm bitnet writes rick anderson writes ra robert , keep making references orthodox belief , saying ra things like held \( cf kermit thread \) ra exact body theology drawing call orthodox \? orthodox compound word comes \( straight , true , right \) \( opinion , doctrine , teaching \) use orthodox refer 'right teaching ' opposed universal catholic think greek orthodox church would take high offense misuse word version christianity neither mainstream bible derived make claims bible bible six seven months ago , claimed primary objection lds doctrine bible derived , \( \) claims shown , also bible bible right teaching derived letting god speak us bible reading simple truths scriptures using bible interpret bible simple truths oh example \? ra holds luke meant said meant \? think apparent reading scriptures pertinent luke 23 43 records christ 's promise repentant thief hung adjacent cross truly say , today paradise later christ rose dead ascended heaven \? christ heaven sunday , could repentant thief \? answer lies location paradise jesus died apparently paradise exalted heaven easter day paradise exalted heaven paradise n't equal heaven \? yet claim exalted heaven , nicht \? jesus refers middle story rich man lazarus abraham 's bosom , godly beggar lazarus carried angels \( luke 16 19 31 \) thus abraham 's bosom referred place souls redeemed waited till day christ 's resurrection read story , found abraham 's bosom n't much place , somewhere rich man could see talk abraham \? yet lifted heaven may well section hades \( hebrew sheol \) , reserved believers died faith would admitted glorious presence god heaven price redemption actually paid even none would precede presence jesus back glory father gee fairly close lds call spirit prison , called false doctrine doubtless infernal paradise souls jesus repentant thief repaired died friday afternoon sunday , risen christ first appeared mary magdalene \( john 20 17 \) two companions \( matthew 28 9 \) , presumably took glory inhabitants infernal paradise \( including abraham , lazarus , repentant thief \) read ephesians 4 8 concerning christ high , led captivity captive gave gifts unto men vers deleted reproduced quoted sunspot gopher archive presumably led whole band liberated captives hades \( e , whole population paradise \) glory heaven part supported scripture , support claim paradise christ descended exalted making claims little evidence ignores witness scripture sun sun 4 8 wherefore saith , ascended high , led captivity sun captive , gave gifts unto men sun sun \( x ref psalms 68 18 \) sun thou ascended , hast led captivity captive thou sun recieved gifts men yea rebellious , lord god sun might dwell amoung sun sun sun 4 9 \( ascended , also descended first sun lower parts earth \? 4 10 descended sun also ascended far heavens , might fill sun things \) 4 11 gave , apostles , prophets sun , evangelists , pastors teachers 4 12 sun saints , work ministry , sun body christ 4 13 till come unity sun faith , knowledge son god , unto perfect man , sun unto measure stature christ 4 14 sun henceforth children , tossed fro , carried sun every wind doctrine , men , cunning sun , whereby lie wait deceive 4 15 speaking sun truth love , may grow things , head , using argue paradise spirit prison , changed pre easter postion post easter god postion supportable claim requires evidence given ra whenever personal interpretation biblical passages ra challenged , response seems one needs merely ra look bible order see truth , ra see biblical things differently \? think characterization faulty whenever questioned , usually give reason yes , reasons general supported direct reading scriptures demonstrated claims scriptural proof need cross checked supply often support postion , read context scripture see things differently , please , put forward valid difference , discuss seem seeing notion difference one views bible somehow legitimate , except , course , stuff glean put forward contrary view perhaps discussion topic something put forward , without putting forward something else discuss , dismiss put forward giving credence alleged views yet put forward simply contentious paradise , accepted judged jesus christ , return presence god somehow different expressed view paradise spoken \( abraham 's bosom \) ra simply assume one really ra understands \? believe something drawn scripture wrong , please , show scripture wrong simply stating views proof show scripture go go back discuss view angle lord lord \) robert weiss psyrobtw ubvms cc buffalo edu kermit tensmeyer intergraph corporation ingr com deep dixie
phoenix oulu fi \( kari tikkanen \) subject burden proof organization university oulu , finland x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 26 mark mccullough \( mccullou snake2 cs wisc edu \) wrote entertainment \( company \) sell computer programs saying virus safe doesn`t burden proof viruses don`t exist floppies \? n't think assumption turns software virus , prove fact court get damages theoretically suppossed able get damages , give evidence virus came software since computer company , proven guilty right i'm wo n't lawyer doctors \? going fly \( drive car \) doctors look different kind illnesses get permission fly burden proof harmful illnesses n't exist , \? \( i'm questioning belief believers burden proof \) please , pascal ! ! ! \) oh ! bug generator c programmers \? \) turbo pascal best fastest edit run edit run cycles ! phoenix oulu fi kari tikkanen ! ! b ! begin
infonode ingr com \( kermit tensmeyer \) subject 's next \? mormons jews \? organization intergraph corporation , huntsville , al lines 58 article agate berkeley edu isaackuo spam berkeley edu \( isaac kuo \) writes article apollo hp com goykhman apollo hp com \( red herring \) writes bd 's contemplating suecide , reason believe committed one reason \? two 1 survivors claimed bd members poured fuel along set fire speed fire spread inconsistent claim morning cnn \( april 27 \) , texas cops say arson suspected two points cnn also stated claim fires fbi set argument made , untrue best 2 certainly fire killed people compound good possibility fbi start fire good reason believe bd 's day attack fbi claimed seen two setting fire outside compound yesterday , arson squad said two flash points near tank entry points good evidence fbi hit squad 3 even bd 's contemplating suicide , possible david koresh convinced \( thus convinced others \) suicide sort difference thinking wo n't survive confrontation fbi \( \? \) committing suicide \? three possibilities bd 's self destruction b fire started fbi accident possible , would foolish us declare outright evidence back sure , 's possible armored vehicle knocked lantern started fire \( lit lantern middle day near edge complex \? \) 's anecdotal evidence contradicted , claimed contradicted i'm finding interesting conflicting reports fbi says bodies found bullet wounds texas \( sp \) says n't yet found bullet holes isaac kuo \( isaackuo math berkeley edu \) kermit tensmeyer intergraph corporation ingr com deep dixie
frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) subject tieing abortion health reform clinton nuts \? organization siemens nixdorf ag lines 21 nntp posting host d012s658 ap mchp sni de article 1993apr26 csrd uiuc edu g skinner uiuc edu writes find unable put two statements together sensible way abortion done mother afford pregnancy refused pay expensive choice birth , statement would make sense case , n't paying birth , mr parker \? , ca n't mother afford pregnancy \? , meaning latter objection \? ca n't ways birth ! pregnancy , topic abortion would hardly arise , would , mr skinner \? frank o'dwyer 'i'm hatching that' odwyer sse ie hens , evelyn conlon
david r sacco dsav andrew cmu edu subject part n't understand \? organization misc student , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 27 1993apr26 advtech uswest com nntp posting host po5 andrew cmu edu reply 1993apr26 advtech uswest com 26 apr 93 part n't user steve novak advtech writes eeb1 midway uchicago edu writes steve novak writes , course , possibility existed meaning student really gave shit could moment silence , makes sense forcing want participate take part reason organized moment silence \? moment silence n't mean much unless everyone participates otherwise 's silent , \? whole point , maybe everyone n't want participate blindly opposing everything flavor religion utterly idiotic blindly opposing everything flavor religion supported taxpayer money way keep christianity becoming official u religion noticing danger utterly idiotic please provide evidence moment silence student died tragically costs taxpayers money
cerritos edu subject hell distribution world organization cerritos college , norwalk ca lines 110 king james version bible three words translated word hell greek words totally different meanings words hades , tartaros , gehenna usage , greek word hades used 11 times new testament , roughly equivalent old testament word sheol meaning grave pit \( compare acts 2 27 psalms 16 10 \) hades may hole ground \( bible nothing fire ! \) modern translators admit use english word hell translate hades sheol unfortunate misleading practice \? seeing word hell many readers traditional connotation ever burning inferno , never remotely intended greek language old english ! true usage hades indeed refer state abode dead , sense spirits walking around sort shadowy realm hades simply abode call grave dead go hell second hell bible , tartaros , mentioned scripture , 2 pet 2 4 god spared angels sinned , cast hell \( tartaros \) , delivered chains darkness reserved unto judgment following rebellion god throne \( isa 14 12 14 rev 12 4 \) , archangel lucifer \( satan \) third created angels \( demons \) ejected heaven \( luke 10 18 \) cast tartaros , place condition restraint god imposed angels await ultimate judgment \( jude 6 1 cor 6 3 \) tartaros , , hell applies evil , rebellious angels demons \( interesting ancient greeks used word describe place zeus confined rebellious titans \) nowhere bible mention men put particular hell third word translated hell bible gehenna comes hebrew hinnom , meaning valley hinnom deep , narrow located south southwest jerusalem old testament times place abominable pagan rites , including infant sacrifice \( apostate kings ahaz made children pass fire god rites specifically celebrated , place , one chief groves valley \) king ancient judah finally put end abominations defiled valley , rendering unclean \( 2 kings 23 10 \) later valley became city dump jerusalem repository , refuse animal bodies criminals also burned along rubbish fires burned continuously , feeding constant supply garbage refuse , field blood , purchased money judas received betrayal christ \( matt 27 8 \) also part valley hinnom valley called gehenna hell \? rev 19 20 satan inspired political dictator miracle working religious figure , false prophet , working resist establishment government god jesus christ second coming fate revealed apostle john beast taken , false prophet cast alive lake fire burning brimstone temporary lake fire \( hell \) \? prophet isaiah wrote lake fire prepared beast \( valley hinnom \) ordained old , yea king prepared , hath made deep large , pile thereof fire wood , breath lord , like stream brimstone , doth \( isa 30 33 \) one thousand years later , satan cast fiery lake beast false prophet cast ! \( rev 20 10 \) wicked died millennia \? bible say suffering fiery punishment sins lake fire \? sequence rev 20 wicked resurrected thrown lake fire satan cast ! \( rev 20 15 \) become wicked \? flames eternity \? wicked burned intense heat coming gehenna fire earth wil consumed , annihilated , destroyed ! punishment everlasting \( permanent final \) bible calls second death \( rev 20 14 21 8 \) , possibility resurrection bible teach eternal punishment , eternal punishing prophet malachi provides graphic description , behold , day cometh shall burn oven , proud , yea , , shall stubble , day cometh shall burn \( 4 1 \) righteous , god says wicked shall ashes soles feet \( mal 4 3 \) gehenna place destruction death , place living torture ! jesus talking jews understood gehenna valley hinnom utter destruction fire complete nothing left , ashes ! every text bible translated greek word gehenna means complete destruction , living torture \( eternal life torment \) ! bible says , romans 6 23 , wages sin death , eternal life torture punishment revealed bible death cessation life eternal life gift god !
sbuckley fraser sfu ca \( stephen buckley \) subject cults \( keeps going \? \) organization simon fraser university , burnaby , b c , canada lines 21 muttiah ecn purdue edu \( ranjan muttiah \) writes article sbuckley sfu ca sbuckley fraser sfu ca \( stephen buckley \) writes bad thoughts well depends whether take literal dictionary definition cult say faiths cults , take social context view cult allows recognize mainstream religions socially acceptable cults groups involve techniques brain washing characteristics define oppressive best word cult behaviour yeah , implicitly social context view provides justification dictionary definition cult follow mainstream pretend cults act based impulses taken seriously \? \) i'm confused could yer saying follow mainstream pretend act based impulses \?
sbuckley fraser sfu ca \( stephen buckley \) subject right \? organization simon fraser university , burnaby , b c , canada lines 39 joakimr ifi uio \( joakim ruud \) writes recently , 've asked rather interesting question right god lives \( always assuming god , course ! \) \? \? infinite wisdom , made perfectly clear n't live according rules , burn hell well , right god make desicion \? let 's say , sake argument , god creates every one us \( directly indirectly , n't matter \) happens , first creates us , turns us lose well , n't ask created guess ought conclude , , since n't ask created , n't care go hell \) let 's make analogue scientist creates unique living creature \( happened , even patented ! ! ! \) , right expect behave certain matter , die \? god impose rules us \? tell god really righteous god likes us believe \? christians flock sheep , unable otherwise follow rest \? n't consider sheep bible says god created us communion obedience first rule eat certain tree , else punishment distance physical death god 's intention creating us relationship us bible documents god 's attempts relationship person jesus bear consequences sin accept relationship god purpose creation god impose rules us \? 's god created us suppose right based mention infinite wisdom , 's 'd say god sarcastic , whole discussion irrelevant , eh \? believe god infinitely wise , belief inform relationship
sbuckley fraser sfu ca \( stephen buckley \) subject religion marriage organization simon fraser university , burnaby , b c , canada distribution na lines 37 magnus acs ohio state edu \( paul \) writes n't sure right newsgroup post , guess misc reason goes getting married june devout \( wisconsin synod \) lutheran would classify strong agnostic weak athiest subject many discussions us really real obstacle n't real difficulties religious differences yet , expect pop children agreed raise children nominally lutheran , lutheran traditions , trying keep open mind sure even possible though feel worst quality religous lack open mind point , suppose , open mind means believing anything true ca n't sure know definitely true , i'm happy open minded , however , open mindedness means respectful tolerant towards beliefs , respecting rights intelligence wisdom people beliefs giving equal time alternative ideas , try best open minded passing \) anyway , guess 'll get question anyone situation give suggestions deal \? 've taken attitude far talking lot letting anything get bottled inside sometimes get feeling 're making much bigger actually comments would greatly appreciated also , please e mail responses since n't get chance read group often \( married , cannot say much , perspective mutually exclusive faiths would big enough considering marrying someone making much bigger \? suppose depends serious beliefs lukewarm atheists christians religion nominal importance would feel issue n't big suppose important beliefs , important issue paul
uucp \( jon baker \) subject message mr president know happened \? organization ag communication systems , phoenix , arizona lines 37 article 1993apr23 ifi uio , joakimr ifi uio \( joakim ruud \) writes article ncratl atlantaga ncr com , mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com \( mark wilson \) writes noose ecn purdue edu tbrent bank ecn purdue edu \( timothy j brent \) writes probably , n't pack heavy weaponry intent use please cite evidence intending use well , would pretty stupid , mean 's use spending thousands something wo n't use \? \( sorry i'm stepping toes members rifle association \) rifles bought hunting , understand , rifles bought killing people , keeping cannot record , collector medieval armour weaponry , n't hanging around , use \( obviously , practice friends \) well , let see explain 's similar collecting coins , stamps , campaign buttons , coke bottles , boxes , model trains , anything else collected \( everything collected \) cases , might consider something aberration mean , purpose serve \? much really 's hobby collector diversity \( much use two thing , except trading selling \) , historical significance \( thingy used \) , technical significance \( one like first one way \) , rarity , people use collections , people state , use collection one sense , diminishes value collection items suffer wear exposure another sense , enhance enjoyment collection people collect firearms use people use firearms collect 's personal preference oops , guess 're supposed , \? j baker
pharvey quack kfu com \( paul harvey \) subject behave \( waco reading suggestion \) organization duck pond public unix 1 408 249 9630 , log 'guest' lines 18 article emx cc utexas edu bill emx cc utexas edu \( bill \) writes would like understand better sort behavior saw connection waco tragedy , 'd strongly recommend reading prophecy fails , leon , henry , stanley \( available harper \) goes long way towards explaining belief system strong withstand even overwhelming evidence least , read first chapter interestingly , branch davidians roots seventh day adventist movement , roots movement first half 19th century movement expected end world 1843 , disappointed take place , wound church 's also christianity came immediate return jesus expected n't happen , formed church
organization city university new york kevxu cunyvm bitnet subject info new age ! juts ccc amdahl com 1993apr26 digi lonestar org lines 46 article 1993apr26 digi lonestar org digi lonestar org \( gerry palo \) danger anti cult groups expose lot deception , also become inquisitors one agrees much say , also receiving end , makes realize importance respecting freedom belief every individual also jumping conclusions making accusations based priori assumptions individual group money primary danger anti cult groups every bit wacky groups oppose large printing lies , half truths misleading part exposes recent book cults picked christian author quite simply mixed non christian religions \( except jews \) various new age groups various fringe groups dubious intent legality hand , watchman fellowship good service exposing deceptive practices far common among groups monitor given record american christianity , group falls category fundamentalist born automatically inquisition business unavoidable affliction proprietary license truth \( tm \) let 's forget jonestown branch davidians much part christian tradition missouri synod lutherans , may fact true christian believers far concerned encroachment overtly christian indoctrination public schools classes concerned religious freedom without selective bent people american way p box washington , dc 7500 americans united separation church state fenton street silver spring , md jack carroll
pharvey quack kfu com \( paul harvey \) subject 'll see demand raise \( 2000 years etc \) organization duck pond public unix 1 408 249 9630 , log 'guest' darkside osrhe uoknor edu lines 16 article darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) writes keith ryan \( kmr4 po cwru edu \) wrote thoughts 0m jack handey 0m go , parachute n't open , friends watching fall , think funny gag would pretend swimming 0m keith , must know escape sequences \( ansi otherwise \) enter , terminal dumb 's something significant village many happy returns ! seeing ! ways means get reign tek !
mathew mathew mantis co uk subject alt atheism faq atheist resources summary books , addresses , music anything related atheism keywords faq , atheism , books , music , fiction , addresses , contacts expires thu , 29 apr 1993 11 57 19 gmt distribution world organization mantis consultants , cambridge uk supersedes mantis co uk lines 290 archive name atheism resources alt atheism archive name resources last modified 11 december 1992 version 1 0 atheist resources addresses atheist organizations usa freedom religion foundation darwin fish bumper stickers assorted atheist paraphernalia available freedom religion foundation us write , p box 750 , madison , wi telephone \( 608 \) 256 8900 evolution designs evolution designs sell darwin fish 's fish symbol , like ones christians stick cars , feet word darwin written inside deluxe 3d plastic fish 4 95 us write evolution designs , laurel canyon 4 , north hollywood , ca people san francisco bay area get darwin fish lynn gold try mailing netcom com net people go lynn directly , price 4 95 per fish american atheist press aap publish various atheist books critiques bible , lists biblical contradictions , one book bible handbook w p ball g w foote american atheist press 372 pp isbn 0 26 4 , 2nd edition , 1986 bible contradictions , absurdities , atrocities , immoralities contains ball , foote bible contradicts , aap based king james version bible write american atheist press , p box , austin , tx cameron road , austin , tx telephone \( 512 \) 458 1244 fax \( 512 \) 467 prometheus books sell books including 's holy horrors \( see \) write 700 east amherst street , buffalo , new york telephone \( 716 \) 837 2475 alternate address \( may newer older \) prometheus books , 59 glenn drive , buffalo , ny 14228 2197 african americans humanism organization promoting black secular humanism uncovering history black publish quarterly newsletter , examiner write norm r allen , jr , african americans humanism , p box 664 , buffalo , ny united kingdom press association national secular society 88 high street 702 holloway road london n1 london 071 226 071 272 british humanist association south place ethical society 14 lamb 's conduit passage conway hall london red lion square 071 430 london fax 071 430 071 831 national secular society publish , monthly magazine founded 1881 germany ibka e v bund der und postfach 880 , 1000 berlin 41 germany ibka publish journal miz \( und zur zeit journal der und ibka e v \) miz , postfach 880 , 1000 berlin 41 germany atheist books , write , b der postfach , 3000 hannover 1 germany telephone 0511 books fiction thomas santa claus compromise short story ultimate proof santa exists characters events fictitious similarity living dead gods uh , well walter miller , jr one gem post atomic doomsday novel monks spent lives copying saint , filling sheets paper ink leaving white lines letters edgar davy post atomic doomsday novel set clerical states church , example , forbids anyone produce , describe use substance containing atoms philip k dick philip k dick dick wrote many philosophical thought provoking short stories novels stories bizarre times , wrote mainly sf , wrote people , truth religion rather technology although often believed met sort god , remained sceptical amongst novels , following relevance galactic pot healer fallible alien deity summons group earth women remote planet raise giant cathedral beneath oceans deity begins demand faith earthers , pot healer joe unable comply polished , ironic amusing novel maze death noteworthy description technology based religion hero searches hidden mysteries gnostic christianity reality fired brain pink laser beam unknown possibly divine origin accompanied dogmatic atheist friend assorted odd characters divine invasion god invades earth making young woman pregnant returns another star system unfortunately terminally ill , must assisted dead man whose brain wired 24 hour easy listening music margaret atwood 's tale story based premise us congress mysteriously assassinated , fundamentalists quickly take charge nation set right book diary woman 's life tries live new christian women 's right property revoked , bank accounts closed sinful luxuries outlawed , radio used readings bible crimes punished doctors performed legal abortions old world hunted hanged atwood 's writing style difficult get used first , tale grows chilling goes various authors bible somewhat dull rambling work often criticized however , probably worth reading , 'll know fuss exists many different versions , make sure get one true version books non fiction peter de rosa christ , bantam press , 1988 although de rosa seems christian even catholic history papal immoralities , , fallacies etc \( german translation die des , , 1989 \) michael martin atheism philosophical justification , temple university press , philadelphia , usa detailed scholarly justification atheism contains outstanding appendix defining terminology usage \( necessarily \) tendentious area argues negative atheism \( e non belief existence god \( \) \) also positive atheism \( belief non existence god \( \) \) includes great refutations challenging arguments god particular attention paid refuting theists swinburne 541 pages isbn 0 642 3 \( hardcover paperback also available \) case christianity , temple university press comprehensive critique christianity , considers best contemporary christianity \( ultimately \) demonstrates incoherent 273 pages isbn 0 767 5 james turner without god , without creed , johns hopkins university press , baltimore , md , usa origins unbelief america examines way unbelief \( whether agnostic atheistic \) became mainstream alternative world view period 1900 , considering france britain emphasis american , particularly new england developments neither religious history atheism , without god , without creed , rather , intellectual history fate single idea , belief god exists 316 pages isbn \( hardcover \) 0 x \( paper \) 0 4 george \( editor \) great thoughts , books , new york , usa dictionary quotations different kind , concentrating statements writings , explicitly implicitly , present person 's philosophy world view includes obscure \( often suppressed \) opinions many people popular observations , traces way various people expressed twisted idea centuries quite number quotations derived cardiff 's great men think religion views religion 490 pages isbn \( paper \) 0 345 x richard swinburne existence god \( revised edition \) , , oxford book second volume began coherence theism \( 1977 \) concluded faith reason \( 1981 \) work , swinburne attempts construct series inductive arguments existence god arguments , somewhat tendentious rely upon late 20th century western christian values aesthetics god supposedly simple conceived , decisively rejected mackie 's miracle theism revised edition existence god , swinburne includes appendix makes somewhat incoherent attempt rebut mackie j l mackie miracle theism , oxford \( \) volume contains comprehensive review principal arguments existence god ranges classical philosophical positions descartes , anselm , berkeley , et al , moral arguments newman , kant , recent classical swinburne also addresses positions push concept god beyond realm rational , kierkegaard , kung philips , well replacements god 's book delight read less better written martin 's works , direct compared hand waving swinburne james holy horrors illustrated history religious murder madness , prometheus books looks religious persecution ancient times present day christians library congress catalog card number 89 1990 norm r allen , jr african american humanism anthology see listing african americans humanism gordon stein anthology atheism rationalism , prometheus books anthology covering wide range subjects , including 'the devil , evil morality' 'the history comprehensive bibliography edmund cohen mind bible believer , prometheus books study people become christian fundamentalists , effect net resources 's small mail based archive server mantis co uk carries archives old alt atheism moderated articles assorted files information , send mail archive server mantis co uk saying help send atheism index mail back reply mathew
mathew mathew mantis co uk subject alt atheism faq introduction atheism summary please read file posting alt atheism keywords faq , atheism expires thu , 6 may 1993 12 22 45 gmt distribution world organization mantis consultants , cambridge uk supersedes mantis co uk lines 646 archive name atheism introduction alt atheism archive name introduction last modified 5 april 1993 version 1 2 begin pgp signed message introduction atheism mathew mathew mantis co uk article attempts provide general introduction atheism whilst tried neutral possible regarding contentious issues , always remember document represents one viewpoint would encourage read widely draw conclusions relevant books listed companion article provide sense progression , presented article imaginary conversation atheist theist questions asked imaginary theist questions cropped repeatedly alt atheism since newsgroup created frequently asked questions answered companion article please note article arguably slanted towards answering questions posed christian viewpoint faq files reflect questions actually asked , predominantly christians proselytize alt atheism talk religion , talking primarily religions christianity , judaism islam , involve sort superhuman divine much discussion apply religions , may atheism \? atheism characterized absence belief existence god atheists go , believe god exist former often referred weak atheist position , latter strong atheism important note difference two positions weak atheism simple scepticism disbelief existence god strong atheism positive belief god exist please fall trap assuming atheists strong atheists atheists believe non existence gods others limit atheism specific gods , christian god , rather making flat denials n't god thing believing n't exist \? definitely disbelief proposition means one believe true believing something true equivalent believing false one may simply idea whether true brings us agnosticism agnosticism \? term coined professor huxley meeting metaphysical society 1876 defined agnostic someone disclaimed \( strong \) atheism believed ultimate origin things must cause unknown unknowable thus agnostic someone believes cannot know sure whether god exists words slippery things , language beware assuming work someone 's philosophical point view simply fact calls atheist agnostic example , many people use agnosticism mean weak atheism , use word atheism referring strong atheism beware also word atheist many shades meaning , difficult generalize atheists say sure atheists n't believe god example , certainly n't case atheists believe science best way find universe philosophical justification basis atheism \? many philosophical justifications atheism find particular person chooses atheist , 's best ask many atheists feel idea god presented major religions essentially self contradictory , logically impossible god could exist others atheists scepticism , see evidence god exists n't impossible prove non existence something \? many counter examples statement example , quite simple prove exist prime number larger prime numbers course , deals well defined objects obeying well defined rules whether gods universes similarly well defined matter debate however , assuming moment existence god provably impossible , still subtle reasons assuming non existence god assume something exist , always possible show assumption invalid finding single counter example hand assume something exist , thing question provably impossible , showing assumption invalid may require exhaustive search possible places thing might found , show n't exhaustive search often impractical impossible problem largest primes , prove n't exist therefore generally accepted must assume things exist unless evidence even theists follow rule time n't believe unicorns , even though ca n't conclusively prove unicorns exist anywhere assume god exists make assumption probably cannot tested cannot make exhaustive search everywhere god might prove n't exist anywhere sceptical atheist assumes default god exist , since assumption test profess strong atheism usually claim sort god exists instead , generally restrict claims cover varieties god described followers various religions whilst may impossible prove conclusively god exists , may possible prove \( say \) god described particular religious book exist may even possible prove god described present day religion exists practice , believing god described religion exists close believing god exists however , sufficiently different counter arguments based impossibility disproving every kind god really applicable god essentially non detectable \? god interacts universe way , effects interaction must measurable hence interaction universe must detectable god essentially non detectable , must therefore case interact universe way many atheists would argue god interact universe , importance whether exists bible believed , god easily detectable israelites surely still detectable today \? note demanding god interact scientifically verifiable , physical way must surely possible perceive effect caused presence , though otherwise , distinguish things n't exist \? ok , may think 's philosophical justification atheism , n't still religious belief \? one common philosophical discussion game cynical view game follows person begins making contentious statement person b points ca n't true , person gradually defines words used statement arrives something person b prepared accept records statement , along fact person b agreed , continues eventually uses statement agreed fact , uses original definitions words rather obscure originally needed get b agree rather seen apparently inconsistent , b tend play along point digression answer question n't atheism religious belief \? depends upon meant religious religion generally characterized belief superhuman controlling power especially sort god faith worship 's worth pointing passing varieties buddhism religion according definition atheism certainly belief sort superhuman power , categorized worship meaningful sense definition religious encompass atheism tends result many aspects human behaviour suddenly becoming religious well science , politics , watching tv ok , 's religion surely belief atheism \( science \) still act faith , like religion \? firstly , 's entirely clear sceptical atheism something one actually believes secondly , necessary adopt number core beliefs assumptions make sort sense sensory data experience atheists try adopt core beliefs possible even subject questioning experience throws doubt science number core assumptions example , generally assumed laws physics observers sort core assumptions atheists make basic ideas called acts faith , almost everything know must said based acts faith , term loses meaning faith often used refer complete , certain belief something according definition , atheism science certainly acts faith course , individual atheists scientists dogmatic religious followers claiming something certain general tendency , however many atheists would reluctant state certainty universe exists faith also used refer belief without supporting evidence proof sceptical atheism certainly n't fit definition , sceptical atheism beliefs strong atheism closer , still n't really match , even dogmatic atheist tend refer experimental data \( lack \) asserting god exist atheism religious , surely 's anti religious \? unfortunate human tendency label everyone either , friend enemy truth clear cut atheism position runs logically counter theism sense , said anti religion however , religious believers speak atheists anti religious usually mean atheists sort hatred towards theists atheists hostile towards religion quite unfair atheist attitudes towards theists fact cover broad spectrum atheists take live let live attitude unless questioned , usually mention atheism , except perhaps close friends course , may part atheism socially acceptable many countries atheists quite anti religious , may even try convert others possible historically , anti religious atheists made little impact society outside eastern bloc countries \( digress slightly soviet union originally dedicated separation church state , like usa soviet citizens legally free worship wished institution state atheism came stalin took control soviet union tried destroy churches order gain complete power population \) atheists quite vocal beliefs , see religion matters business example , government usa individuals usually concerned church state remain separate n't allow religion say running state , surely 's state atheism \? principle separation church state state shall legislate concerning matters religious belief particular , means state cannot promote one religion expense another , also cannot promote belief religious nature religions still say discussion purely secular matters example , religious believers historically responsible encouraging many political reforms even today , many organizations campaigning increase spending foreign aid founded religious campaigns long campaign concerning secular matters , long discriminate religious grounds , atheists quite happy see say prayer schools \? 's god , care people pray \? people pray voters lawmakers , tend things n't pray ca n't ignore also , christian prayer schools intimidating non christians , even told need join diversity religious non religious belief means impossible formulate meaningful prayer acceptable present public event also , non prayers tend friends family pray reasonable care friends family wasting time , even without motives mentioned christians campaign increased foreign aid atheists \? n't atheist charities hospitals \? n't atheists object religious charities \? many charities without religious purpose atheists contribute atheists contribute religious charities well , sake practical good atheists even voluntary work charities founded theistic basis atheists seem feel atheism n't worth shouting connection charity , atheism simple , obvious everyday matter , charity many feel 's somewhat cheap , say self righteous , use simple charity excuse plug particular set religious beliefs weak atheists , building hospital say believe god rather strange idea 's rather like holding party say today birthday fuss \? atheism rarely evangelical said atheism n't anti religious perhaps one 's upbringing , way rebelling \? perhaps , many people parents attempt force religious \( atheist \) ideas upon , many people choose call atheists 's also doubtless case religious people chose religion atheist upbringing , way different hand , many people choose religion way expectations others whole , ca n't conclude much whether atheism religion although general , people tendency go along group rather act think independently atheists differ religious people \? n't believe god 's atheists may listen heavy metal backwards , even may prefer , even know words may wear hawaiian shirts , may dress black , may even wear orange \( many buddhists lack belief sort god \) atheists even carry copy bible around arguing , course ! whoever , chances met several atheists without atheists usually behaviour appearance \? n't atheists less moral religious people \? depends define morality obedience god , course atheists less moral n't obey god usually one talks morality , one talks acceptable \( right \) unacceptable \( wrong \) behaviour within society humans social animals , successful must co operate good enough reason discourage atheists anti social immoral behaviour , purely purposes self preservation many atheists behave moral compassionate way simply feel natural tendency humans care happens others \? n't know , simply way naturally , people behave try use atheism justify actions however , equally many people behave try use religious beliefs justify actions example trustworthy saying deserves full acceptance jesus christ came world save sinners reason , shown mercy jesus christ might display unlimited patience example would believe receive eternal life king eternal , immortal , invisible , god , honor glory forever ever quote statement made court february 17th 1992 jeffrey , notorious serial killer milwaukee , wisconsin seems every atheist mass murderer , religious mass murderer trivial morality \? survey conducted organization found behavior born experiences 4 respondents said driven intoxicated born , 12 done conversion similarly , 5 used illegal drugs conversion , 9 two percent admitted engaging illicit sex salvation 5 today , september 1991 , p 12 seems best , religion monopoly moral behaviour thing atheist morality \? mean thing morality atheists \? , answer yes , explained many atheists ideas morality least strong held religious people mean atheism characteristic moral code \? , answer atheism imply anything much person behave atheists follow many moral rules theists , different reasons atheists view morality something created humans , according way humans feel world work , rather seeing set rules decreed supernatural n't atheists theists denying god \? study freedom religion foundation found 90 atheists responded became atheists religion work found religious beliefs fundamentally incompatible observed around atheists unbelievers ignorance denial unbelievers choice vast majority spent time studying one religions , sometimes great depth made careful considered decision reject religious beliefs decision may , course , inevitable consequence individual 's personality naturally sceptical person , choice atheism often one makes sense , hence choice person honestly make n't atheists want believe god \? atheists live lives though nobody watching many desire watched , matter good big brother figure might atheists would like able believe god \? one believe things merely one wants true \? risks approach obvious atheists often decide wanting believe something enough must evidence belief course atheists see evidence existence god unwilling souls see ! many , atheists previously religious explained , vast majority seriously considered possibility god exists many atheists spent time prayer trying reach god course , true atheists lack open mind assuming atheists biased offensive closed minded comments course god , n't looking properly likely viewed patronizing certainly , wish engage philosophical debate atheists vital give benefit doubt assume sincere say searched god willing believe basically telling truth , debate futile n't whole life completely pointless atheist \? many atheists live life decide think gives meaning life , pursue goals try make lives count , wishing eternal life , influence people live example , atheist may dedicate life political reform , hope leaving mark history natural human tendency look meaning purpose random events however , means obvious life sort thing meaning put another way , everything looks like question actually sensible thing ask atheists believe asking meaning life \? silly asking meaning cup coffee \? believe life purpose meaning , atheists find comfort time danger \? many ways obtaining comfort family , friends , even pets less spiritual level , food drink tv may sound rather empty vulnerable way face danger , \? individuals believe things comforting , face reality matter harsh might \? end , 's decision individual concerned atheists unable believe something would otherwise believe merely makes feel comfortable put truth comfort , consider searching truth sometimes makes feel unhappy , 's hard luck n't atheists worry might suddenly shown wrong \? short answer , \? many atheists atheists years encountered many arguments much supposed evidence existence god , found invalid inconclusive thousands years religious belief n't resulted good proof existence god atheists therefore tend feel unlikely proved wrong immediate future , stop worrying theists question beliefs \? n't arguments apply \? , beliefs questioned similar weak atheism sceptical default position take asserts nothing strong atheism negative belief theism strong positive belief atheists sometimes also argue theists question beliefs real harm cause believers , everyone else sort harm \? religion represents huge financial work burden mankind 's matter religious believers wasting money church buildings think time effort spent building churches , praying , imagine effort could better spent many theists believe miracle healing plenty instances ill people healed priest , take medicines prescribed doctors , dying result theists died refused blood transfusions religious grounds arguable catholic church 's opposition birth control condoms particular increasing problem many third world countries contributing spread aids world wide religious believers known murder children rather allow children become atheists marry someone different religion n't real believers claimed believers sort excuse makes real believer \? many one true religions 's hard tell look christianity many competing groups , convinced true christians sometimes even fight kill atheist supposed decide 's real christian n't , even major christian churches like catholic church church england ca n't decide amongst \? end , atheists take pragmatic view , decide anyone calls christian , uses christian belief dogma justify actions , considered christian maybe christians perverting christian teaching ends surely bible readily used support un christian acts ca n't much moral code \? bible word god , could n't made less easy \? know beliefs n't perversion god intended \? single unambiguous interpretation bible , atheist take one interpretation another say \? sorry , someone claims believes jesus murdered others jesus bible told , must call christian obviously extreme sorts beliefs questioned since nobody ever proved god exist , must unlikely basic religious beliefs , shared faiths , nonsense hold , pointed start dialogue , positive assertions concerning existence entities inherently much harder disprove negative ones nobody ever proved unicorns n't exist , n't make unlikely myths therefore much valid hold negative assertion default hold positive assertion default course , weak atheists would argue asserting nothing better still well , atheism 's great , many theists \? unfortunately , popularity belief little correct , whether works consider many people believe astrology , , pseudo sciences many atheists feel simply human weakness want believe gods certainly many primitive human societies , religion allows people deal phenomena adequately understand course , 's religion industrialized world , find people believing religious explanations phenomena even perfectly adequate natural explanations religion may started means attempting explain world , nowadays serves purposes well many cultures developed religions surely must say something \? really religions similar example , 's worth remembering religions buddhism taoism lack sort concept god christian sense course , religions quick denounce competing religions , 's rather odd use one religion try justify another famous scientists philosophers concluded god exists \? every scientist philosopher believes god , one besides , already pointed , truth belief determined many people believe also , important realize atheists view famous scientists philosophers way theists view religious leaders famous scientist human may expert fields , talks matters words carry special weight many respected scientists made look foolish speaking subjects lie outside fields expertise really saying widespread belief religion indicates nothing \? entirely certainly indicates religion question properties helped spread far theory talks memes sets ideas propagate human minds , analogy genes atheists view religions sets particularly successful parasitic memes , spread encouraging hosts convert others memes avoid destruction believers questioning doctrine , using peer pressure keep one time believers admitting mistaken religious memes even encourage hosts destroy hosts controlled memes course , memetic view particular virtue associated successful propagation meme religion good thing number people believe , disease good thing number people caught even religion entirely true , least puts across important messages fundamental messages atheism \? many important ideas atheists promote following n't surprised see ideas also present religions moral behaviour mindlessly following rules especially sceptical positive claims want life sort meaning , 's find search true , even makes uncomfortable make life , 's probably one 'll 's good relying external power change must change something 's popular n't mean 's good must assume something , assume something 's easy test n't believe things want true finally \( importantly \) beliefs open question thanks taking time read article mathew begin pgp signature version 2 2 q end pgp signature information pgp 2 2 , send mail mantis co uk
i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) subject gospel dating organization technical university braunschweig , germany lines 93 article mimsy umd edu mangoe cs umd edu \( charley wingate \) writes well , john quite different , necessarily elaborated theology evidence must known luke , content q known , form new argument could elaborate little \? argument goes follows q quotes appear john , almost codified way matthew luke however , considered similar enough point knowledge q , entirely different source assuming knew luke would obviously put luke , would give evidence latter assumption n't think follows take traditional attributions , luke might known john , john elder figure either case 're talking spans time well within range lifetimes talking date texts , age authors usual explanation time order mark , matthew luke consider respective ages says matthew read text mark , luke matthew \( probably mark \) assumed john knew content luke 's text evidence overwhelming , admittedly \( 1 \) earlier manuscripts john discovered interesting , \? dated \? old \? unfortunately , n't got info hand \( think \) late '70s early '80s , possibly old ce 200 200 , shed doubt order putting john rest three \? n't see point , exactly james felder said first hand knowledge events , obvious least two used older texts base account even association luke paul mark peter generally accepted well , genuine letter peter would close enough , would n't \? sure , original together id card sender receiver would fine 's supposed say \? missing something \? n't think one step removed source bad luke mark matthew learned stories directly , really cannot believe sort big transformation jesus gospel people posit news reports , one generally gets better information john , 's nothing said john disciple generally accepted style language together theology usually used argument john disciple relies claim gospel john evidence \? one step one generation removed bad even times compare reports similar events century almost illiterate societies even speak believers necessarily best sources also obvious mark edited old oldest manuscripts \? knowledge \( \) oldest quite estimates , even complete clear editing problem ending , 's basically hopeless mess oldest versions give strong sense incompleteness , point shortest versions seem break obvious solution point part text lost material verse 9 pretty clearly later seems represent end luke words , one know original mark look like arguments based mark pretty weak connected john \? benedikt
mathew mathew mantis co uk subject university violating separation church state \? organization mantis consultants , cambridge uk x newsreader rusnews v1 01 lines 29 dmn kepler unh edu \( kings become philosophers philosophers become kings \) writes recently , ras ordered \( none resisted cared apparently \) post religious flyer entitled soul scroll thoughts religion , spirituality , matters soul inside bathroom stall doors \( school , university new hampshire \) sort newsletter assembled hall director somewhere campus poses question issue , responses included next ' 's pretty vague assume 's put christian , 're careful mention jesus bible 've heard someone defend , saying well n't support one religion \? \? \? state university , strong supporter separation church state , enraged \? sounds like 's screaming parody give copy friendly neighbourhood subgenius preacher luck , 'll run mental hand back outrageously offensive gut funny parody paste originals see stool scroll thoughts religion , spirituality , matters colon \( use text wipe \) mathew
strom watson ibm com \( rob strom \) subject soc motss , et al princeton axes matching funds boy scouts distribution usa organization ibm research lines 15 article n4hy harder ccr p ida org , n4hy harder ccr p ida org \( bob mcgwier \) writes 1 however , hate economic terrorism political correctness worse hate policy 2 effective approach stop donating directly indirectly supports gay rights issues end boycott funding scouts somebody reconcile apparent contradiction 1 2 \? rob strom , strom watson ibm com , \( 914 \) 784 ibm research , 30 saw mill river road , p box 704 , heights , ny
i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) subject visit jehovah 's witnesses organization technical university braunschweig , germany lines 114 article 1993apr5 823 batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes n't say lucifer created perfect nature \? yes define perfect think playing usual game , make sweeping statements like omni , holy , perfect , n't note mean exactly say says must use terms leads contradictions i'm trying play games understand might seem way especially one coming completely different point view atheism take foot mouth , wondered already catholic christian fact contradiction one reasons atheist believe , believed similar sentences long time shows power religion anything claims god could prevented lucifer 's fall taking away ability choose moral alternatives \( worship god worship \) , would mean god error make lucifer free first place exactly god allows evil , evil ever one 's opinion , best premise point view , premise necessary true , specifically , evil allow evil occur follows definition evil ordinarily used letting evil happen allowing evil take place , place even causing evil , another evil could give definition free \? especially presence omniscient \? self determination words , god created conscious beings ability choose moral choices independently god , therefore , free omniscient attribute god know creatures even omnipotent created choice left known , course events fixed even omniscient , extend argument james tims god omniscient , clearly , creating beings free moral choice greater good emergence \( evil sin \) since created knowing outcome advance greater good allow evil knowledge happen \? make system possibility good good , necessarily imply evil logically possible , god done know logically possible god free 's choice choose evil simply good , said truly free moral choice \? good defined loving obeying god , avoiding behaviors god prohibits , say one good evil well \? like said , sure good without evil logically possible omnipotent , free \? said something choices scenario gives therefore define free imagine following good beings , cannot harm easily implemented making everyone appreciate object good deeds , n't make long , feel absence good evil whose case arguing \? conceivable , omnipotent would omnipotent want logically consistent well , give pet idea omnipotent first \( deletion \) perhaps weak , way speculating ubiquitous pink unicorns , would basis speculation idea god n't fall blue \) , reading science fiction fantasy \( know disagree \) \) bible describes god omniscient , nevertheless created beings free moral choice , logic follows 's seems \( least mind \) certain amount evidence indicates god exists biblical description may fair one evidence bolsters argument view bible describes omniscient omnipotent god destroys credibility bible , nothing less lot people would interested evidence god , unfortunately , ca n't definitions benedikt
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject political atheists \? organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 11 nntp posting host punisher caltech edu arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \( ken arromdee \) writes motto originated star banner tell something atheists motto coins originated smear equated atheism communism called unamerican n't motto various coins since civil war required currency 50 's keith
i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) subject anecdote islam organization technical university braunschweig , germany lines 28 article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) writes victimized muslims others true muslims \( tm \) muslims quite annoying n't understand point petty sarcasm basic principle islam one born muslim one says testify god god mohammad prophet god , long one explicitly reject islam word one must considered muslim muslims phenomenon 're attempting make general rule psychology direct odds basic islamic principles want attack islam could better argue something islam explicitly contradicts criticism islam change , criticism arguments used namely , whenever people identify muslims victims attacks others , used argument bad situation muslims whenever deeds muslim others named , count argument people done true muslims mention made muslims cause bad situation another party double standards benedikt
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject political atheists \? organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 54 nntp posting host punisher caltech edu \( reference line trimmed \) livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes good deal confusion started assertion objective morality , admit , finished recursive definition murder objectively immoral , eactly murder requires appeal morality yes switch targets little , little asking goal \? mean goal \? suggesting objective goal somewhere , form morals achieve \? well , example , goal natural morality survival propogation species another example moral system presented within declaration independence , states guaranteed life liberty pursuit happiness see , moral system , must define purpose system , shall moral unto end \? murder certainly violation golden rule , thought defined murder intentional killing non murderer , responded asking whether execution innocent person system capital punishment murder fail see anything never claimed system morality objective one thought first claim kind objective morality , example murder wrong n't want claim , 's fine well , murder violates rule , certainly pillar every moral system however , assuming current system manner implementation objectively moral think good approximation , ca n't perfect way , n't seem understand difference arbitrary objective keith schneider defines murder , 's arbitrary jon livesey may still say well , according personal system morality , killing humans murder , wrong , legal definition murder may usa , , saudi arabia , prc may matters whit well , objective would assume system based clear fundamental concepts , arbitary implies clear line reasoning keith
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject pompous ass organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 9 nntp posting host punisher caltech edu kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) writes people keep asking questions \? rarely ever answer nope , 've answered question posed , answered multiple times keith
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject pompous ass organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 14 nntp posting host punisher caltech edu livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes long motto stay around becomes default \? 's cutoff point \? n't know exact cutoff , least years , surely 40 years notion default take account changes population makeup \? specifically , changes talking \? arguing motto interpreted offensive larger portion population 40 years ago \? keith
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject keith schneider stealth poster \? organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 12 nntp posting host punisher caltech edu sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) writes borrow philosophy , n't truly understand color red seen true , even experienced color red still might different interpretation , would n't know red , certainly could n't judge subjectively , objectivity applicable , since wanting discuss merits red keith
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject keith schneider stealth poster \? organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 25 nntp posting host punisher caltech edu arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \( ken arromdee \) writes , discuss merits racism , benefits , would well experienced personally speak experiencing religion mean someone believe religion 's right , pretty impossible , right \? would ideal could believe , try religion , determine course thought suits us best , possible religion warrants belief , belief carries psychological benefits also psychological burdens , speak experiencing racism , mean someone believe racism , racist things done \? parallelism , former must meant , seems odd usage phrase well , psychological benefits gained racism , could fully understood judged persons actually believing racism course , parallel happens poor one , originated keith
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject political atheists \? organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 44 nntp posting host punisher caltech edu bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) writes , n't know capital punishment wrong , n't shooting better analogy would continue drive car , realizing sooner later , someone going killed automobile accident know people get killed result driving , yet continue anyway uh uh know one killing i'm sure 'd drive car sufficient evidence conclude would necessarily kill someone lifetime yes , everyone thinks one thinks going cause involved fatal accident , likelihood surprisingly high man firing squad whose gun shooting blanks mean less guilty n't know jon , say taking human life murder say murder wrong one situation action prevent another murder , either another mean killing wrong one \? , note situation never occur always options thank killing n't say killing wrong basically saying i'm getting bit tired probabilistic arguments attempting condescending \? system usually works pretty well small consolation poor innocent bastard getting lethal injection personal value human life based solely statistical approach \? sound like needs many needs , fuck , people found risk acceptable probably much likely die plane crash , even using electric blender , executed innocent personally think risk acceptable , ideal moral system , risk acceptable acceptable fudge factor necessary approximation ideal keith
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject political atheists \? organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 50 nntp posting host punisher caltech edu bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) writes think 70 \( \) people approve death penalty , even realizing shortcomings n't make reasonable \? sole judge \? aside revenge , merits find capital punishment \? talking , majority people support \? anyway , think revenge fairness people favor punishment murderer going punished , people think get deserves people would n't think would fair murderer live , victim died revenge \? petty pathetic perhaps think petty pathetic , views minority local televised hot topic talk show recently segment capital punishment every advocate use portion system cited main reason supporting bastard deserved true human compassion , forgiveness , sympathy required compassion , forgiveness , sympathy \? someone wrongs , take great lengths make sure advantage removed , similar situation forced upon someone kills another , apply golden rule kill person turn entire moral system based concept \? , stating human life sacred , somehow , never violated \? would sound like sort religious view mean , reasonable imprisonment , really , think \? sure , person could released found innocent , still ca n't undo served perhaps n't people could watch closely instead cost would probably similar , especially implanted sort electronic device would rather alive prison dead chair \? criminal committed murder , desires irrelevant , still answered question concerned death penalty due possibility execution innocent , n't concern shared imprisonment n't , logic , administer minimum punishment possible , avoid violating liberty happiness innocent person \? keith
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject political atheists \? organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 26 nntp posting host punisher caltech edu bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) writes kill person innocent person convicted murder , murder would committed , would murderer least , would n't reasonably considered murderer , reasonable introduced fudge factor necessary account inability totally objective due lack absolutely true information society collective decides carry burden executing 's citizens , also carries blame innocent blood every voter casts ballot favor capital punishment part guilty murder every innocent victim system people favor system blame society accepts system , member society blame innocent person gets executed favor work convince others , members society accepted blame 've considered risk acceptable similarly , every person drives must accept blame fatal traffic accidents something surely going happen many people driving question risk acceptable much likely innocent person killed driving one executed keith
subject n't innocents die without death penalty \? bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) organization tektronix , inc , beaverton , lines 26 article 0 p00168 psilink com p00168 psilink com \( james f tims \) writes maintaining classes e , even prison , seems place innocent people higher risk unjust death would state executed classes e occasional error answer position would indeed place people prison life depends predisposition towards murder , also success rate escape therefore ability commit crimes words , lifetime imprisonment n't work , perhaps 's 're executing people , 're careful enough lock bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com said queens could stay , blew bronx away , sank manhattan sea
subject ancient islamic rituals bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) organization tektronix , inc , beaverton , lines 33 article 1993apr3 081052 11292 monu6 cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au \( fred rice \) writes propose two trends greater level general depression society \( psychological problems \) greater sexual promiscuity linked , latter prime cause former cannot provide evidence beyond stage , whole thesis seems reasonable request people ponder upon damn right ca n't provide evidence rarely widespread social phenomenon simple premise , psychology would hard science roughly mathematical soundness physics premise may well right much likely , however , reflects socialization religious background , well need validate religious beliefs pretend answers \( n't \) , would say , guilt , intolerance brought adherence fundamentalist religions play large role depressing members society mileage obviously varies bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com said queens could stay , blew bronx away , sank manhattan sea
subject political atheists \? bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) organization tektronix , inc , beaverton , lines 47 article 1993apr3 blaze cs jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \( ken arromdee \) writes article fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes would say one innocent person killed sense bad many certainly feel way punish someone single murder reform system x , reducing number deaths one , produce system xx 'd say go back system x , even though would introduce single extra death bob seems think one bad many sense somewhat stronger one indicate yes , argument sole purpose death penalty kill people 's primary \( would argue \) purpose continue kill people practice almost utility , especially know killing innocents , unconscionable least , existence prison system transportation system based merits society , willing accept lost innocent lives overwhelming benefit continued existence systems one stretch evidence arguments make claim capital punishment case n't clear maintain capital system kills innocent people provides us net positive gain \? pin corner ask , would respond n't belief state right take life wo n't open debate , seems others tiring thread anyway bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com said queens could stay , blew bronx away , sank manhattan sea
subject must creator ! \( maybe \) halat pooh bears \( jim halat \) reply halat pooh bears \( jim halat \) lines 24 article syr edu , syr edu \( brad porter \) writes science wonderful answering questions i'm type question scientific findings often , personally , find theory evolution could humans , highly evolved , complex organism thinks , learns , develops truly organism resulted random genetic mutations natural selection \? stuff deleted computers excellent example evolution without creator create computers create sand goes silicon goes integrated circuits go processor board took things put together interesting way like plants create oxygen using light 's much bigger leap talk something created everything nothing find resort believing creator much simpler alternative exists simply incapable understanding beginnings even beginnings 's ok present keeps perfectly busy jim halat
subject americans evolution halat pooh bears \( jim halat \) reply halat pooh bears \( jim halat \) lines 10 article j0 rpi edu , johnsd2 rpi edu \( dan johnson \) writes article maine maine edu , maine maine edu \( \) writes dan johnson n't know , take hand anyway bravo go \( ds \) 0 beautiful ! simply beautiful ! jim halat
subject speculations dgraham bmers30 bnr ca \( douglas graham \) organization bell northern research , ottawa , canada lines 17 article rusnews w165w mantis co uk mathew mathew mantis co uk writes nanci ann miller nm0w andrew cmu edu writes god truly omnipotent folks like claim , ca n't terminate eternity \? reason ca n't ork thing demanding must able , meaning terms classic example excessive faith reason fact trouble talking something n't imply impossible simply implies hard talk good chance god ork charlie wingate ork , n't even god doug graham dgraham bnr ca opinions
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject political atheists \? organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 191 nntp posting host punisher caltech edu livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes much though might fun debate capital punishment , probably wrong group relevance n't seem able tell us capital punishment actually , murder , tell us murder wrong , using term yet defined well , 've said innocent person executed , objectively murder however , blame another question seems entire society sanctions sorts executions realizing risks blame probability killing innocent person shooting random air , probability killing innocent person state system capital punishment either , know actions taking sooner later result killing innocent person yes , also kill someone activity presumably , isolated totally rest society , driving kill people , airlines , people continue driving flying punishments inflicted unwilling prisoners courts risks take upon willingly argue law system similar risk perhaps innocent person punished someday , work prevent fact , many criminals go free result trying prevent punishment innocents driving kills someone else , sure , moral issue know least one person involved fatal accident , felt guilty afterwards , accidents totally expected , given road , blame society i'm said saying false witness resulted innocent person convicted killed , would still fault state , since actual killing , commented state killing depend false witnesses could \? state killing even case sincere mistakes yes , state fault case state much prevent false witnesses possible , trying say , capital punishment always murder human error system \? i'm saying capital punishment murder , period , involves taking human life 's definition murder make appeals dictionaries objective morals okay , call murder , question whether murders wrong saying taking human life wrong , matter circumstances \? , society , decide murder someone , say , lists reasons , live moral consequences play word games pretend murder n't murder 's opinion society ought run , basically works society accepts risk innocent person murdered execution , every member society shares blame , people 's definitions murder include sort malicious intent , involved execution , \? , trying discuss objective moral system , least ramifications personal system objective one \? , discussing objective moral system showing n't one , , one thing , incapable defining terms , example , murder murder violates golden rule executions , allowing , society implicitly accepts consequences matter innocent victim 're talking reading minds , talking knowing truth yes , never absolutely certain truth , court systems work principle knowing truth beyond reasonable doubt sorry , simply quoting accurately said , since looking totally objectively case , know people thinking voting execute person intent malicious unfair , execution would murder slide another claim , quite different jury persuaded beyond serious doubt us knowing minds beyond serious doubt reading minds jury would certainly tell whether conviction moral , objective system , absolute truth matters , jury system one method approximate truth , twelve members must convinced truth moreover , jury comes sufficiently prejudiced background may allow persuaded beyond serious doubt evidence would laugh , read minds people , would know conviction unfair , would perfectly fair could read minds \? assume would fair knew absolute truth , much less fair , opinion , good approximation absolute truth \? 's question fairness claim , quoted claim whether know fair , able distinguish capital murder yes , could objectively determine difference \( knew possible information \) , ca n't always determine difference flawed system think system almost good possible , still n't objectively perfect see , n't matter know fair objectively , either fair 's huge difference read minds , know , cannot read minds , know nothing difference degree fairness , know know effect objective system think possible produce fairly objective system , clear goals supposed promote i'm going waste time trying devise system pretty sure exist sure \? simply want people confront reality reality , remember reality important \? case , reality , ideal apart , never know , even fact , fairness justice system every innocent person released death row , may dozen innocent people executed , hundred , none simply n't know , assume system fairly decent , least likely , realize correctness system says nothing totally ideal objective system going \? one hand , pretend theory , know things never know , system fair , wave magic make certain types killing murder , go way well , ideal system , working system ideal hope create system close approximation ideal system possible hand , recognize justice small hope probability punishing innocent , end bear moral responsibility even probabilistic consequences systems set , say , well , go , murdering maybe us even say gee , wonder strictly necessary \? yes , bear responsibility people seem willing think second preferable requires people face moral consequences society , instead magic ceremonies word games must realize consequences actions keep separating justice system pack \? lest forget , also n't think objective moral system , believe take idea seriously someone presents evidence n't think country objective system , think objective system exist , theory without omniscience , objective system possible practice keith
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject political atheists \? organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 12 nntp posting host punisher caltech edu livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes along comes mr keith schneider says objective moral system start ask definitions objective system depends , , , whole thing falls apart falls apart attempt apply n't mean objective system ca n't exist means one cannot implemented keith
ic ac uk \( mr r \) subject university violating separation church state \? organization imperial college lines 33 nntp posting host 129 31 80 14 article kepler unh edu dmn kepler unh edu \( kings become philosophers philosophers become kings \) writes recently , ras ordered \( none resisted cared apparently \) post religious flyer entitled soul scroll thoughts religion , spirituality , matters soul inside bathroom stall doors \( school , university new hampshire \) sort newsletter assembled hall director somewhere campus post deleted please respond soon possible 'd like religious postings stop , ! thanks , dana easy way post flyers stall doors , add bottom , nice large capitals , emergency toilet paper \) robert , fog , ic , uk email r ic ac uk net cc ic ac uk irc also mrs prize rafia work
edu \( \( gene \) \) subject ad \( family values \) organization florida international university , miami lines 15 article unix portal com danb shell portal com \( dan e babcock \) writes funny ad american family association 'll post choice parts enjoyment \( ad i'm adding anything \) typos mine \) dan 's article deleted found add local sunday newspaper add placed cartoon section ! perfect place ! \) k
subject islamic authority women livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) organization sgi nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com lines 11 article 1993apr3 ultb isc rit edu , snm6394 ultb isc rit edu \( n mozumder \) writes claim person crime n't believe god , moment crime committed , least , whether originally believers believe good statistics indicate people declared atheism doubtless , atheist act charity temporarily become baptist jon
subject ancient islamic rituals livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) organization sgi nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com lines 20 article 1993apr3 081052 11292 monu6 cc monash edu au , darice yoyo cc monash edu au \( fred rice \) writes propose two trends greater level general depression society \( psychological problems \) greater sexual promiscuity linked , latter prime cause former cannot provide evidence beyond stage , whole thesis seems reasonable request people ponder upon pondered ten seconds realised since n't reliable statistics sexual promiscuity , since whole issue depression n't well defined earlier centuries , probably talking crap course , could pull mozumder us , say people sex outside marriage defined depressed ca n't say 'd ever noticed , jon
carina unm edu \( v \) subject soc motss , et al princeton axes matching funds boy scouts organization university new mexico , albuquerque lines 30 nntp posting host carina unm edu article 1993apr5 cbnewsl cb att com stank cbnewsl cb att com \( stan krieger \) writes please use rec scouting purpose established \? clearly netnews voters decided want provide scouting newsgroup give fringe groups forum anti societal political views ok , thing comment stan time part forum call rec scouting policy discussions related topics policy discussion , involves related topics fringe group discussion obviously , strong feelings sides issues hand wether particular view anti societal opinion , alone , n't try make seem otherwise wish engage discussion , use kill file wish continue discussion , please , knowing full well implications apply know plan continuing discussion wish input one tired people trying say matter significant group ! , quite especially us feel impact closely v world 's www oyster , eagle scout '87 allergic \? '88
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject political atheists \? organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 8 nntp posting host punisher caltech edu mathew mathew mantis co uk writes rape , surely burden guilt solely rapist \? thrown cage tiger get mauled , blame tiger \? keith
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject political atheists \? organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 12 nntp posting host punisher caltech edu mathew mathew mantis co uk writes perhaps n't people could watch closely instead cost would probably similar , especially implanted sort electronic device wait commit crime \? implant devices potential criminals like communists atheists \? sorry , n't follow reasoning proposing punish people commit crime \? justification \? keith
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject enviroleague organization stratus computer , inc lines 117 distribution world nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com new alternative scouting unacceptable bsa reasons religious sexual preference boyd r , iii 365 compuserve com subject enviroleague birth announcement march 7 , 1993 , earth forum , compuserve information service formal announcement \( sm \) enviroleague new youth movement , enviroleague , recently born , according founder , boyd r , iii \( cis id , 365 \) , peoria , illinois enviroleague exists education youth , male female , matters concerning values related responsibility environment incorporated illinois profit corporation , articles initial applications service mark filed according , draft bylaws contain following statement mission objectives mission mission enviroleague adult members foster implement improved education young people need conduct lives earth , leave earth better condition found , otherwise act responsible , moral ethical users environment pursue accomplishment mission , enviroleague shall seek serve catalyst , focusing common cause separate efforts groups desiring preservation , improvement , responsible use environment must live objectives pursuit mission enviroleague , primary objectives shall \( 1 \) establish movement involving many environmentally concerned organizations possible , said movement primary focus education involvement young people appropriate areas environmental concern \( 2 \) develop provide organizations branches full complement program materials use , including suitable uniforms , insignia badges , written ideas , information , literature items shall seem appropriate desirable \( 3 \) serve clearing house exchange program ideas , materials information among said organizations \( 4 \) assist environmentally concerned organizations recruit train necessary adult leadership youth programs enviroleague operate three program divisions serving youth elementary , middle high school grades , respectively service shall formation enviroleague teams , either enviroleague environmentally conscious organizations \( local branches \) wishing charter use programs developed enviroleague enviroleague , develops , controlled actual adult leaders local team , nationally imposed obstacles membership adult leadership status based upon relevant improper conduct organizations accepting charter may , however , impose certain additional standards use program material organizations , enviroleague commit forming , soon possible , new nearby teams restrictions , particularly youth membership enviroleague operate principle youth much contribute developing programs thus , top youth leaders teams middle high school youth may become involved governing local administrative groups , high school youth may involved similar functions national level program materials development time copies draft portions mentor 's manual \( manual adult leadership \) earth forum , library 17 files updated development takes place compuserve particularly proud enviroleague 's founder chose electronic medium make first public announcement formation announcement made simultaneously outdoor earth forums electronic home enviroleague compuserve 's earth forum go earth message library areas 17 , named enviroleague subsequently , enviroleague 's initial council held first meeting boyd elected first enviroleague chief guardian \( equivalent chairman board ceo \) reached home \( 309 \) 675 4483 case real need also , mail addressed enviroleague p box 418 peoria , il interested starting enviroleague team might establish contact , receive diskette \( ibm dos , ascii \) initial information cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
acooper mac cc macalstr edu subject idle questions fellow atheists organization macalester college lines 26 wonder many atheists care speculate face world atheists majority rather minority group population rather ridiculous question ways , know , newsreader getting new postings bit , figure might well post something new also , many atheists would actually take stance higher value way thinking theistic way thinking typical selfish argument would lines thinking evolved inherent motivation , one , intrinsically , different , qualitatively measuring stick must drawn somewhere , cannot assign value system beliefs core , alternative apply periphery ie , expresses selfishness idle thoughts adam adam john cooper verily , often laughed weaklings thought good simply acooper macalstr edu claws
bobs thnext mit edu \( robert singleton \) subject americans evolution organization massachvsetts institvte technology lines 122 distribution world nntp posting host thnext mit edu article 1993apr5 dcs warwick ac uk simon dcs warwick ac uk \( simon clippingdale \) writes deleted alt atheism tend recognise two categories atheism function format due mathew mantis co uk , think \( \) weak \( believe \( gods \) \) \( ii \) strong believe \( \( gods \) \) deleted strong atheist , must quibble assertion position requires faith believe god , commonly described theists , exist belief merely opinion , formed basis observation , including certain amount introspection fully accept could wrong , suitably convincing evidence thus believe gods exist , imply faith part let first say believe gods exist fact different believing god gods argue latter statement , believe gods exist rest upon faith , making positive statement gods exist \( strong atheism \) rather merely saying n't know therefore n't believe n't believe \( weak atheism \) , believe god different saying believe god exist still maintain position , even reading faqs , strong atheism requires faith first let say following might language problem regards faith existence , christian , maintain god exist exist means space time god god kierkegaard said god exist , eternal said , feel 's rather pointless debate called existence god i'm believe god source ground say god exist , also accept statement obviously mean two different things however , follows use phrase existence god 's sense think using would like clarification upon mean existence god also might differ upon means faith webster says faith 1a allegiance duty person loyalty b \( 1 \) fidelity one 's promises \( 2 \) sincerity intentions 2a \( 1 \) belief trust loyalty god \( 2 \) belief traditional doctrines religion b \( 1 \) firm belief something proof \( 2 \) complete trust 3 something believed esp strong conviction esp system religious beliefs see belief one never prove god exist say believe god exist , opinion based upon observation , ask refering \? observations pro con valid establishing positive belief observations point direction direction might even predisposed \( predisposed mean , example , people believe god also tend \) actually draw conclusion existence non existence god requires leap made leap actively say believe god exist personally , think statements misguided arguing existence god precisely wrong way find \( yes , use personal god viable concept \( imo \) person wants use go ahead course god neither choice want explain 'll glad \) please , someone agree even violently disagree 's ones advantage start name calling person thinks 've misunderstood something faqs , think read well enough , point error ways correct situation i'm interested polite well thought discussion cheers simon simon clippingdale simon dcs warwick ac uk department computer science tel \( 44 \) 203 523296 university warwick fax \( 44 \) 203 525714 coventry cv4 7al , u k bob singleton bobs thnext mit edu
nanci ann miller nm0w andrew cmu edu subject genocide caused atheism organization sponsored account , school computer science , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 27 nntp posting host andrew cmu edu reply 1993apr5 ultb isc rit edu snm6394 ultb isc rit edu \( n mozumder \) writes horrible deaths resulted atheism anything else definitely quite horrible deaths result atheists theists i'm sure bobby list quite atheist side fails recognize theists equally genocide perhaps , since i'm bit weak history , somone would like give list wars caused led theists \? think \( hitler claimed christian example \) complete list would probably effective showing bobby absurd statement peace , side note , notice always sign posts peace perhaps take advice leave atheists peace beliefs \? bobby mozumder nanci know \( sure \) author quote , please send email \( nm0w andrew cmu edu \) lying deeply ingrained lying others
nanci ann miller nm0w andrew cmu edu subject dear mr theist organization sponsored account , school computer science , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 31 1993apr5 wam umd edu nntp posting host po2 andrew cmu edu reply 1993apr5 wam umd edu west next02cville wam umd edu \( stilgar \) writes means full quote \( michael , park \) something like earth existed quite billions years blink eye , gone tomorrow , earth would miss us remember quote keep humble thinking progressed far masters planet cool quote earth n't need saving , 's existed quite happily us , ones need saving better watch theists jump \) brian west sig file earth , sig file blink ok , sig file eye , gone tomorrow , posted west wam umd edu would missed n't care knows \( park \) said , meant , nobody made nanci know \( sure \) author quote , please send email \( nm0w andrew cmu edu \) lying deeply ingrained lying others
mccullou snake2 cs wisc edu \( mark mccullough \) subject political atheists \? organization university wisconsin , madison computer sciences dept lines 109 turn jump ! \) article gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) writes \( reference line trimmed \) livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes good deal confusion started assertion objective morality , admit , finished recursive definition murder objectively immoral , eactly murder requires appeal morality think mean circular , recursive , semantics problems , horribly inefficient \( ask assembly programmer \) yes switch targets little , little asking goal \? mean goal \? suggesting objective goal somewhere , form morals achieve \? well , example , goal natural morality survival propogation species another example moral system presented within declaration independence , states guaranteed life liberty pursuit happiness see , moral system , must define purpose system , shall moral unto end \? oft quoted line says people guaranteed life , liberty pursuit happiness inalienable rights , complete lie deception , authors line process proving liberty never free , always purchased cost , almost always cost another whos liberty inalienable \? similarly right life one person must die save another , even group others , whos life inalienable \? leads classic question value death penalty , especially serial killers whos life liberty valuable , serial killer , victim \? according beautiful line , two rights completely inviolate , , noone able remove includes government admittedly serial killer restricted people 's life liberty , life liberty inviolate also \? according declaration independence , murder certainly violation golden rule , thought defined murder intentional killing non murderer , oooh , like means killing infant murder cannot reason , infant similarly people brain dead \( easier see \) , coma , etc also , current law , accidental killing still murder include \? responded asking whether execution innocent person system capital punishment murder fail see anything never claimed system morality objective one thought first claim kind objective morality , example murder wrong n't want claim , 's fine real golden rule life , gold , makes rules e might makes right survival wrong \? well , murder violates rule , certainly pillar every moral system however , assuming current system manner implementation objectively moral think good approximation , ca n't perfect mean golden rule stated , yes , almost every system implemented used reality sorry , n't deal much fiction , reality way , n't seem understand difference arbitrary objective keith schneider defines murder , 's arbitrary jon livesey may still say well , according personal system morality , killing humans murder , wrong , legal definition murder may usa , , saudi arabia , prc may matters whit welcome ! ! ! ! ! ! ! \) arbitrary \? find part society , societal rules , morals , etc arbitrary , please tell n't think well , objective would assume system based clear fundamental concepts , arbitary implies clear line reasoning keith sounds like difference seems , objective reasoning like , arbitrary reasoning n't like n't understand 2
cs utexas edu ! geraldo cc utexas edu ! portal austin ibm com ! austin ibm com ! subject radical agnostic ! austin ibm com \( e h \) organization motion inc x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 34 one \( jcopelan nyx cs du edu \) wrote article 66 bgsu edu andy bgsu edu \( pixie \) writes first post 've seen ol' bug zoo \( bgsu \) means possibly think prove beyond doubt god exist \( anyone one , means , tell \) therefore , lacking ability absolute proof , atheist becomes act faith , cannot accept accept nothing blind faith invisible pink flying unicorns ! need say \? also question meant atheist familiar example importance meaning word follows two statements following consistent \( 1 \) believe wearing socks \( 2 \) believe wearing socks two statements following consistent \( 3 \) believe wearing socks \( 4 \) believe wearing socks statements \( 1 \) \( 2 \) require faith , make nature reality statements \( 3 \) \( 4 \) require belief many atheists \( included \) take following position \( 5 \) believe god \( 6 \) believe god , harbor beliefs , good evidence god existing folks call agnosticism suffer blind faith think n't worry , happy
subject maddi \? madhaus netcom com \( maddi hausmann \) organization society putting things top things lines 12 created image , therefore must pinnacle creation , creates , births , continues , cut religious crap , i'm woman , thanks 's sexism started road atheism maddi hausmann madhaus netcom com centigram communications corp san jose california 408 428 3553 kids , please n't try home remember , post professionally
cs utexas edu ! uunet ! olivea ! sgigate ! sgiblab ! panasonic com ! nntp server caltech edu ! bdunn subject wrong right bdunn cco caltech edu \( brendan dunn \) organization california institute technology , pasadena nntp posting host punisher caltech edu lines 25 article trmetu bitnet trmetu bitnet writes hi i'm turkish guy tried atheism , instant finally decided many facts intend write point view , atheists people dropped deep , dark well thinking reality dusty walls well looked little bit upward would see blue skies truth close eyes allah god mohammed mess , let 's generate entropy means theology thermodynamics w hat 's point view problem \? , first spark generated formation universe formed \? bothering big bang first rk \? please think bit think return reality universe uh oh looks bit much like bobby 's atheism false stuff really going go \? maybe universe cyclical ! \) \( brendan dunn
cs utexas edu ! uunet ! olivea ! sgigate ! sgiblab ! panasonic com ! nntp server caltech edu ! keith subject political atheists \? keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) rusnews w165w mantis co uk vice ico tek com organization california institute technology , pasadena nntp posting host lloyd caltech edu lines 17 bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) writes us , even argument n't stand costs far execute criminal country feed , , shelter remainder natural life people believe fault judicial system find one 's greatest virtues assume talking appeals processes , etc \? well , noted people imprisoned life also tend appeal \( though quite much final hours anyway , economics good reason either favor oppose punishment keith
zaphod mps ohio state edu ! usc ! elroy jpl nasa gov ! nntp server caltech edu ! juliet caltech edu ! lmh subject americans evolution lmh juliet caltech edu \( henling , lawrence \) distribution world , local organization california institute technology nntp posting host juliet caltech edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 lines 18 article skyblu ccit arizona edu , lippard skyblu ccit arizona edu \( james j lippard \) writes article juliet caltech edu , lmh juliet caltech edu \( henling , lawrence \) writes atheism \( greek 'a' god \) belief god agnosticism \( greek 'a' \? ' know \) belief possible determine god agnosticism defined positive belief belief possible determine existence gods 's belief i'm inclined reject also defined atheism positive belief god fairly large number atheists alt atheism reject definition , instead holding atheism simply absence belief god michael martin , atheism philosophical justification , distinguishes strong atheism mistake get newer dictionary read follow line larry henling lmh shakes caltech edu
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject political atheists \? organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 62 nntp posting host punisher caltech edu \( reference line trimmed \) ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu \( scott sauyet \) writes first , 'll make assumption agree murderer one commited murder well , 'd say murderer one intentionally committed murder instance , put bullet gun thought contain blanks , someone killed gun , person actually performed action n't murderer \( guess actually made clear definition \) 'd interested see reasonable definition mean reasonable \? otherwise , inductive definition n't bottom definition , essence , murder intentional killing someone commited murder , expanding second occurence , see yes , bad include word defined definition , even though series infinite , think meaning still deduced assume see problem correct inductive definition , must define something terms simpler case , must one several cases instance , define function \( function assigns positive integer product positive integers less equal \) positive integers follows math lesson deleted okay , let 's look situation suppose longstanding two families claim committed travesty distant past time member one family kills member , family thinks justified killing member first family , let 's suppose sequence occurred infinite number times , n't like dealing , suppose one member family goes back time essentially begins whole thing , never ending loop based non existent travesty resolve \? well , murders , suppose n't totally applicable problem , still possible reduce system , case , murderer definition murder cannot recursive , given finite existence humanity , murder cannot committed without killing involved , first person intentionally cause someone get killed necessarily murderer enough induction solve apparently definition \? see , totally objective system information available , definition n't really problem keith
kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) subject political atheists \? organization case western reserve university lines 29 nntp posting host b64635 student cwru edu article gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) writes mathew mathew mantis co uk writes rape , surely burden guilt solely rapist \? thrown cage tiger get mauled , blame tiger \? human greater control actions , tiger proper analogy would thrown cage person get mauled , blame person \? yes providing person responsible frame mind , eg insane , pcb 's , etc one thing relates among navy men get tatoos say mom , love mom makes virile men bobby mozumder \( snm6394 ultb isc rit edu \) april 4 , 1993 one true muslim left world
mccullou snake2 cs wisc edu \( mark mccullough \) subject idle questions fellow atheists organization university wisconsin , madison computer sciences dept lines 43 article 1993apr5 mac cc macalstr edu acooper mac cc macalstr edu writes wonder many atheists care speculate face world atheists majority rather minority group population probably would much problems slight shift emphasis weekends might inviolate \( common work 7 days week business \) , instead american atheists , would similar , religious organizations persons religious belief seems crutch justification actions guide determine actions course , people would come fascinating actions , could fun watch seems , people , religion america n't matter much ends , large majority n't make much issue long n't , admittedly , never suffer bible belt , north see , reasonable people things tend reasonable religion well also , many atheists would actually take stance higher value way thinking theistic way thinking typical selfish argument would lines thinking evolved inherent motivation , one , intrinsically , different , qualitatively measuring stick must drawn somewhere , cannot assign value system beliefs core , alternative apply periphery ie , expresses selfishness n't bother according higher value thinking , thinking n't want fall trap start , decide better , says , , best , also inferior modes thinking \( infinite diversity infinite combinations \) 'll argue soda , much 12 \( inflation done \) 2
trajan cwis unomaha edu \( stephen mcintyre \) subject problem satan \( used islamic authority women \) organization university nebraska omaha lines 103 article 1993apr5 1007 news unomaha edu trajan cwis unomaha edu \( stephen mcintyre \) writes course , bobby states satan free , god wants brings host god therefore evil free god directing also god evil , part infinite self good evil etc \? would like solid answer , run hope gave fairly solid answer one simply n't agree embodied version satan separate creation force wrote belief ascribe evil creation rather , absence good fits logic things dual use e g , knife used used kill like entropy , evil seen view neither force entity satan , therefore , metaphorical fact , several verses holy qur'an appear support view several traditions well example , tradition food never left open shelf table overnight , lest satan enter appears reference yet thus , evil effect spoiled food described satan many examples satan believe \? quite physical descriptions heaven hell holy qur'an , bible , etc times spiritual intellectual evolution modern human physical descriptions heaven , hell , satan taken quite literally worked time mentioned tradition cited , example , sufficient absence theory disease spread worms simply describe evil passed consumer spoiled food satanic begs question satan case metaphorical , certain allah way \? bottom line , however , describing spiritual plane human language something like describing color person blind birth may want read book \( n't already \) egg first intended light hearted description mathematical con deleted space saving language fails cannot used adequately describe another dimension cannot experienced speakers , conventions metaphor , allegory , like come necessary unseen described terms meaning reader listener , like models , must made speaking metaphorically clarity meaning , equivalence perception , like crippled else \? asked would know god exists spirit rather metaphorical \? mean , 's okay say well , satan metaphorical , justify belief justify god metaphor something else say many , many instances satan described \( old testament book job , new testament gospels \) way , god described \( spirit \) know one metaphorical , belief god n't bar evil let 's consider case satanists even satan metaphorical , would believe god justify belief , case someone believe god , religious standards , evil bobby see , let address question also deleted metaphor obviously issue possible , i'm sure readers newsgroup would want delve religious interpretation however , anyone wishes discuss , i'm certainly willing \( either line e mail line posting \) stephen atheist libertarian pro individuality pro responsibility jr jazz
cs ulowell edu \( joe \) subject soc motss , et al princeton axes matching funds boy scouts reply bevans carina unm edu 's message 4 apr 1993 12 19 20 gmt organization 1993apr3 midway uchicago edu lynx unm edu lines 21 article lynx unm edu bevans carina unm edu \( \) writes gay people straight people n't \? absolutely nothing i'm straight \( arrow \) , 17 year old male involved bsa n't care gay people among , long n't make passes anything summer camp work , boss gay way gay \( know \) , 'one n't push anything , give respect back , due position anything , bsa taught , n't know , tolerance something met guy , thought gays , bsa taught basically , comes among business one else right tell otherwise , unless violates someone else 's civil rights
subject gospel dating p00261 psilink com \( robert knowles \) organization kupajava , east krakatoa reply 1993apr5 wam umd edu nntp posting host 127 0 0 1 x mailer psilink dos \( 3 3 \) lines 22 date mon , 5 apr 1993 16 30 50 gmt stilgar west next02cville wam umd edu article kmr4 1422 po cwru edu kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) writes article 1993apr5 wam umd edu west next02cville wam umd edu \( stilgar \) writes illiad undisputed word god \( tm \) prove wrong dispute ergo counter example proven wrong dispute counter example ergo counter counter example wrong right nanny nanny boo boo 8 p looks like serious case temporary islam
subject word advice jcopelan nyx cs du edu \( one \) organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept summary yeah , right lines 14 article mimsy umd edu mangoe cs umd edu \( charley wingate \) writes 've said enough times alternative think might caught alternative , point , rationality n't alternative either problems metaphysical religious knowledge say , humans cannot solve saying go say ca n't done n't interrupt jim washed brain today \?
nanci ann miller nm0w andrew cmu edu subject concerning god 's morality \( long \) organization sponsored account , school computer science , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 56 1993apr5 084042 822 batman bmd trw com nntp posting host po5 andrew cmu edu reply 1993apr5 084042 822 batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes sorry , supernatural forces necessary create pathogen saying , since diseases bad , bad entity must created would say acid rain , falling sky , volcanoes , , quote acts god \? would say acts god natural occurrences amazes say human creation result natural process evolution \( rather act god \) post say processes \( et al \) natural occurrences gave right choose things natural processes direct acts god \? know god n't cause every natural disaster specific purpose mind \? would certainly go along sadistic nature 've seen bible even satan nothing original inception disease , evolution random chance would produced since humanity forsook god 's protection choose live apart god 's law \( humanity collectively \) , come surprise adverse consequences \( collective \) action one left deal disease disorders inevitably result entropic universe may ask , coming \? collective referring idea god works humanity two levels , individually collectively mankind whole decides undertake certain action \( majority mankind \) , god allow consequences action affect mankind whole adam eve \( two people \) , even tho honor \( christians claim \) first two , definitely represent majority billions \( probably \) people come perhaps majority , \( \) n't around vote , perhaps might voted differently tree god never asked us assumes two bad people must bad hmm sounds like kind false generalization see many theists posting resorting 's get shoulda known jim b nanci know \( sure \) author quote , please send email \( nm0w andrew cmu edu \) lying deeply ingrained lying others
subject islamic authority women bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) organization tektronix , inc , beaverton , lines 46 article 1993apr5 ultb isc rit edu \) snm6394 ultb isc rit edu \( n mozumder \) writes \) \) 's mistake would better children mother \) raised child \) \) one thing relates among navy men get tatoos say mom , \) love mom makes virile men \) compare homos raised study get \) point \) \) way claim would better men \) stayed home raised child something false made \) feminists seek status men recognize fact \) men women natural differences physically , \) mentally also \) \) logic n't say americans cause worlds problems , \) said atheists \) \) becuase code ethics follow , means atheists \) whatever want feel right something totally \) based feelings feelings cloud rational \) thinking \) \) yeah n't say atheists bad , could \) bad good , nothing define bad good \) ! bobby 's back , shit brains glory thought 'd turned corner progress , prescription runs 'd put kill file , man , good stuff wish staying power fortunately , learned take seriously long , long , long ago bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com said queens could stay , blew bronx away , sank manhattan sea
subject islamic authority women bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) organization tektronix , inc , beaverton , lines 17 article 1993apr5 ultb isc rit edu snm6394 ultb isc rit edu \( n mozumder \) writes peace , bobby get hell sig 1 \) learn stands 2 \) really mean bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com said queens could stay , blew bronx away , sank manhattan sea
subject omnipotence \( speculations \) jbrown batman bmd trw com lines 55 article 2 p00261 psilink com , robert knowles p00261 psilink com writes date fri , 2 apr 1993 23 02 22 0500 nanci ann miller nm0w andrew cmu edu 3 god \? , would violate nature cannot god 's nature exist , , statement inherent existence existence existence cannot exist , mentioned , must omnipotent mean omnipotent \? mean omnipotent god able anything everything \? creates self contradictory definition omnipotence effectively useless descriptive , omnipotence must mean powerful able anything everything let illustrate analogy suppose united states nuclear power earth suppose us military could effectively countered nation group nations us power go country time reason straighten things leaders us see fit us would militarily omnipotent suppose us holds doctrine philosophy interfering internal affairs nation , current civil war former states technically \( scenario \) us would power unilaterally go yugoslavia straighten mess effectively us could intervene without violating policy non interference policy non interference held strongly enough , would never question would ever violated effectively , us would limited could actually , although power whatever wanted us would simply never want interfere idea would beyond consideration leaders given inviolate non interference policy god effectively limited sense powerful , cannot use power way would violate essence , hope helps clear misunderstanding concerning omnipotence regards , jim b
cs utexas edu ! geraldo cc utexas edu ! portal austin ibm com ! austin ibm com ! karner subject islamic marriage \? karner austin ibm com \( f karner \) austin ibm com 1993apr2 cadence com organization ibm advanced workstation division originator frank karner austin ibm com lines 50 article 1993apr2 cadence com , mas cadence com \( masud khan \) writes article austin ibm com karner austin ibm com \( f karner \) writes okay want name names \? obviously official records pseudo marriages performed convenience happens typically woman willing move lover without legal contracts speak man merely utilizing loophole entering temporary religious marriage contract order sex nobody complains , nobody cares , nobody needs know perhaps alert imam could practice far widespread may think maybe takes 4 muslim men witness penetration decide practice exists ! level ignorance display , muslims allowed enter temporary marriages , got \? evidence outlawed practise get facts straight buddy give references tell everyone lying widespread may think \( \) fact contrary fantasies practised amongst muslims first , i'm buddy ! second , read wrote i'm talking muslims allowed , merely practice consider muslim , n't retort old tired must true muslims bullshit gave names information \? fatwa going perpetrators \? honestly think someone would voluntarily come forward confess \? kind extremism shown co \? fat chance rate , conclusive proof nature act perhaps people indulge practice agree theory , hope allah forgive end think 's rather arrogant pretend speak muslims regard also , kind silly insinuating koranic law forbids , criminals muslim countries \? far care go subject weakness arguments netters see disclaimer opinions expressed posting mine solely represent employer way f karner aix technical support karner austin vnet ibm com
zaphod mps ohio state edu ! wupost ! uunet ! olivea ! sgigate ! odin ! fido ! solntze wpd sgi com ! livesey subject political atheists \? livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) organization sgi nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com lines 28 article gap caltech edu , keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) writes \( reference line trimmed \) livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes good deal confusion started assertion objective morality , admit , finished recursive definition murder objectively immoral , eactly murder requires appeal morality yes switch targets little , little asking goal \? mean goal \? suggesting objective goal somewhere , form morals achieve \? well , example , goal natural morality survival propogation species got far mean goal \? hope n't mean imply evolution conscious goal jon
zaphod mps ohio state edu ! wupost ! uunet ! olivea ! sgigate ! odin ! fido ! solntze wpd sgi com ! livesey subject political atheists \? livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) 1993mar31 blaze cs jhu edu vice ico tek com gap caltech edu organization sgi nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com lines 15 article gap caltech edu , keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) writes bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) writes personal objection find capital punishment cruel unusual punishment circumstances painless , n't cruel , occurred frequently since dawn time , hardly unusual ! mean long put sleep first , kill without cruel \? changes everything jon
zaphod mps ohio state edu ! wupost ! uunet ! olivea ! sgigate ! odin ! fido ! solntze wpd sgi com ! livesey subject political atheists \? livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) gap caltech edu fido asd sgi com 1993mar30 blaze cs jhu edu e9f fido asd sgi com gap caltech edu fido asd sgi com organization sgi nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com lines 20 article gap caltech edu , keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes along comes mr keith schneider says objective moral system start ask definitions objective system depends , , , whole thing falls apart falls apart attempt apply n't mean objective system ca n't exist means one cannot implemented 's fact ca n't exist bothers 's fact n't seem able define wanted hear things might principle exist long n't think carefully , could ask religious person , could n't \? jon
wupost ! uunet ! olivea ! sgigate ! sgi ! fido ! solntze wpd sgi com ! livesey subject pompous ass livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) psuvm psu edu gap caltech edu 1993mar30 1302 bmerh85 bnr ca gap caltech edu kmr4 po cwru edu gap organization sgi nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com lines 20 article gap caltech edu , keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) writes kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) writes people keep asking questions \? rarely ever answer nope , 've answered question posed , answered multiple times fifty dollars ca n't answer question big bang theory big bang theory recipe cookies fifty dollars , please hey , n't say answers would make sense jon
wupost ! uunet ! olivea ! sgigate ! sgi ! fido ! solntze wpd sgi com ! livesey subject pompous ass livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) psuvm psu edu gap caltech edu 1993mar30 blaze cs jhu edu gap caltech edu fido asd sgi com gap organization sgi nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com lines 20 article gap caltech edu , keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes long motto stay around becomes default \? 's cutoff point \? n't know exact cutoff , least years , surely 40 years notion default take account changes population makeup \? specifically , changes talking \? arguing motto interpreted offensive larger portion population 40 years ago \? , \? i'm commenting makes little sense consider everything inherit default seen steam trains recently \? jon
subject concerning god 's morality \( long \) j5j psuvm psu edu \( john johnson \) 1993apr3 24632 leland stanford edu 1993apr5 084042 822 batman bmd trw com organization penn state university lines 48 article 1993apr5 084042 822 batman bmd trw com , jbrown batman bmd trw com responds lot grief given article 1993apr3 24632 leland stanford edu , leland stanford edu \( scott compton \) k ask , \? relevant discussion answering john 's question \? genetic diseases , many bacterial viral diseases require babies develop antibodies god 's fault \? \( original question \) say , scotty 's followup irrelevant original question , unusual , threads often quickly evolve away original topic could understand jim spent much time responding regarded irrelevancies may ask , coming \? collective referring idea god works humanity two levels , individually collectively mankind whole decides undertake certain action \( majority mankind \) , well , guess hypothetical adam majority mankind seeing man time god allow consequences action affect mankind whole n't understand , apologize using one two syllable words discussion understand mean collective , think insane perversion justice sort judge would punish descendants crime committed ancestor \? want sure read post provide response , send copy jim brown oz bmd trw com ca n't read every day , posts slip thanks well , must admit probably read often read bible days missed couple good followups post i'm sending personal copy followup hope respond publically john
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject jews ca n't hide keith cco organization sgi lines 36 nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article 1993apr3 bmerh85 bnr ca , dgraham bmers30 bnr ca \( douglas graham \) writes article aaa fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes article 1993apr3 bmerh85 bnr ca , dgraham bmers30 bnr ca \( douglas graham \) writes er , jon , ken said previously people like country unfortunately , jews survive sure sounds like ken accusing guy nazi previous posting deleted yes , yes perfectly fine rant , agree completely anything \? issue hand whether ken accused fellow germany nazi grant explicity make accusation , came pretty damn close certainly accusing guy would like exterminate jews , 's good enough poster casually trashed two thousand years jewish history , ken replied previously people like germany 's right also people formally nazis nazi party would gone nowhere without active tacit support ordinary man street behaved though casual anti semitism perfectly acceptable exactly n't understand wrote , n't see matter hand \? jon
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject jews ca n't hide keith cco organization sgi lines 16 nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article 1993apr3 mac cc macalstr edu , acooper mac cc macalstr edu writes article fido asd sgi com , livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes well , germany hardly country discriminate jews , although worst reputation best job expressing general european dislike turn debate antisemitism , also point luther 's antisemitism based religious grounds , hitler 's racial grounds , 's aesthetic grounds whole group poor analysis , even bigots find intriguing remarks could give us bit explanation \? example , religion anti semitic , aesthetic \? jon
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject yet rushdie islamic law organization sgi lines 28 distribution world nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article 1993apr3 monu6 cc monash edu au , darice yoyo cc monash edu au \( fred rice \) writes fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes british go around blowing next \? n't know , seems implying \( 1 \) person accused blowing wtc ny actually , \( 2 \) islamic teachings something blowing wtc replying person attempted justify fatwa rushdie grounds work intentionally insulting think take single sentence fairly long posting , say n't know , seems implying best quite disingenuous , perhaps even dishonest anyone care dig back read full posting , see nothing kind trust n't deny islamic teaching something fatwa rushdie \? jon
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject anecdote islam organization sgi lines 15 distribution world nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article bu edu , jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) writes n't understand point petty sarcasm basic principle islam one born muslim one says testify god god mohammad prophet god , long one explicitly reject islam word one must considered muslim muslims phenomenon 're attempting make general rule psychology direct odds basic islamic principles want attack islam could better argue something islam explicitly contradicts mr mozumder incorrect says committing bad acts , people temporarily become atheists \? jon
marshall csugrad cs vt edu \( kevin marshall \) subject genocide caused atheism organization virginia tech computer science dept , blacksburg , va lines 42 nntp posting host csugrad cs vt edu snm6394 ultb isc rit edu \( n mozumder \) writes saddam believed god , would pray five times day communism , hand , actually committed genocide name atheism , lenin stalin said two die hard atheist \( look ! pun ! \) believed atheism integral part communism , bobby stalin killed millions name socialism atheism characteristic lenin stalin version socialism , nothing another characteristic lenin stalin socialism food distribution would therefore say stalin lenin killed millions name rationing bread \? course horrible deaths resulted atheism anything else earlier posts stated true \( muslim \) believers incapable evil suppose believe , could reason one ever killed name religion perfect world live , bobby one reasons atheist limit god giving god form god face bobby referring rather obscure law good atheist 's handbook law 3 give believe face must excuse us , bobby argue theism , usually argue christian idea god realm christianity , man created god 's image kevin marshall sophomore , computer science virginia tech , blacksburg , va usa marshall csugrad cs vt edu
leland stanford edu \( carolyn jean \) subject list biblical contradictions organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa lines 26 joslin pogo isp pitt edu \( david joslin \) writes someone writes found list biblical contradictions cleaned bit , 'd like help i'm curious know purpose people think lists serve 's time atheists spend much time paying attention bible , anyway \? face , better things life ! used chuckle snort book absurdity people believing truth , etc spend little time religion , native americans \? heck , native americans interesting myths also , egyptians think pay much attention christianity accept religion mythology , find accurate try tolerant gets hard someone places book nose tells 's special 's carolyn
suopanki stekt6 oulu fi \( heikki suopanki \) subject visit jehovah 's witnesses reply jbrown batman bmd trw com 's message 5 apr 93 11 24 30 mst lines 17 reply suopanki oulu fi organization , 1993apr3 proxima alt za 1993apr5 825 batman bmd trw com 5 apr 93 11 24 30 mst , jbrown batman bmd trw com said god eternal b jesus god c therefore , jesus eternal c b works logically mathematically god set things eternal jesus subset god therefore jesus belongs set things eternal everything n't always logical mercedes car girl mercedes therefore , girl car \? heikki
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject political atheists \? organization sgi lines 15 distribution world nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article rusnews w165w mantis co uk , mathew mantis co uk \( mathew \) writes article 1993apr2 blaze cs jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \( ken arromdee \) writes automobile system kills non driving passengers , mention need drive even use car killed one indeed , kills far system public transport would therefore entirely favour banning private cars replacing trains , buses , taxis , bicycles , seconded cycle work day , could get damned cars drivers road , would lot fun jon
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject political atheists \? organization sgi lines 15 distribution world nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article rusnews w165w mantis co uk , mathew mantis co uk \( mathew \) writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes , meaning people drive , accept risks , contribute tax money design systems minimize risks eh \? already systems minimize risks 's car drivers n't want use 're called bicycles , trains buses poor matthew million posters call car drivers chooses , non car owner jon
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject omnipotence \( speculations \) organization sgi lines 35 nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article 1993apr5 828 batman bmd trw com , jbrown batman bmd trw com writes article 2 p00261 psilink com , robert knowles p00261 psilink com writes date fri , 2 apr 1993 23 02 22 0500 nanci ann miller nm0w andrew cmu edu 3 god \? , would violate nature cannot god 's nature exist , , statement inherent existence existence existence cannot exist , mentioned , must omnipotent mean omnipotent \? mean omnipotent god able anything everything \? creates self contradictory definition omnipotence effectively useless descriptive , omnipotence must mean powerful able anything everything let illustrate analogy suppose united states nuclear power earth suppose us military could effectively countered nation group nations us power go country time reason straighten things leaders us see fit us would militarily omnipotent check posting \? might disagree jon
ednclark kraken itc gu edu au \( jeffrey clark \) subject little satanic nntp posting host kraken itc gu edu au organization itc , griffith university , brisbane , australia lines 33 mangoe cs umd edu \( charley wingate \) writes nanci ann miller writes favorite reply literal minded complaint bible really inspired god really important , would make damn certain translators scribes people interpreting copying getting right , literally , put merit something corrupted man even originally inspired god \? corrupted theory pretty weak comparison current hebrew text old versions translations shows text fact changed little space two millennia n't suprising people believe text manner likely makes pains make good copies honestly hold tripe charley \? start enough current versions bible make comparisons show write utter garbage witness jw , mormon , catholic , anglican , greek orthodox bibles really convince 'd take good old library local library king james compared brand new , hot god 's tongue good news bible genesis almost , many four gospels edited good news bible fact god good news much congenial fellow must say like 'll get king james actually give quotes least headings n't changed much jeff
ednclark kraken itc gu edu au \( jeffrey clark \) subject ancient islamic rituals nntp posting host kraken itc gu edu au organization itc , griffith university , brisbane , australia lines 27 cfaehl vesta unm edu \( chris faehl \) writes reasonable trend towards obesity trend towards depression \? ca n't pick two favorite trends , notice correlation , make sweeping statement generality mean , , people , mean valid reasonable thesis best 's gross oversimplification push pull factors people experience agree , reckon 's television increase fundamentalism think increase pre marital sex others thinks psychologists taken criminal justice system let violent criminals con letting streets others think 's increase designer drugs others think 's communist plot basically social interactions changing factors society far complicated us control hold panic handles hope heading soft landing one things sure , depression destruction nuclear family due solely sex marriage jeff fred rice muslim , giving point view darice yoyo cc monash edu au cfaehl vesta unm edu
lmh juliet caltech edu \( henling , lawrence \) subject americans evolution organization california institute technology lines 13 distribution world nntp posting host juliet caltech edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article 1993apr3 njit edu , hertz njit edu \( david utidjian eng sci \) writes article juliet caltech edu lmh juliet caltech edu \( henling , lawrence \) writes complete description , atheism agnosticism see faq alt atheism alt answers think utidjian berkeley edu apologize posting thought going talk origins also took definitions 1938 nonetheless , apparent past arguments words imply like commonly accepted definitions used care larry henling lmh shakes caltech edu
karner austin ibm com \( f karner \) subject jews ca n't hide keith cco originator frank karner austin ibm com organization ibm advanced workstation division lines 50 article aaa fido asd sgi com , livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes article 1993apr3 bmerh85 bnr ca , dgraham bmers30 bnr ca \( douglas graham \) writes article fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes deletions er , jon , ken said previously people like country unfortunately , jews survive sure sounds like ken accusing guy nazi hitler nazis n't spring fully formed forehead athena n't invent anti semitism built foundation anti semitism already present germany foundation anti semitism laid , nazis , people listed , also hundreds years , knee jerk bigotry , part perfectly ordinary people , , course , pastors priests worry today whether hollywood hitler black uniform going come onto german stage one step , whether bedrock foundations anti semitism laid , little little , germany , speak , laid , , come later , people like poster question people think casual anti semitism acceptable , even fun deletions may suggest , greatest possible respect , go read history \? jon , consider german poster 's remark anti semitic \? perhaps imply anyone germany n't agree policy nazi \? pray tell , even qualify casual anti semitism \? term n't apply , bring \? bigotry shining disclaimer opinions expressed posting mine solely represent employer way f karner aix technical support karner austin vnet ibm com
kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) subject omnipotence \( speculations \) organization case western reserve university lines 19 nntp posting host b64635 student cwru edu article 1993apr5 828 batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes god effectively limited sense powerful , cannot use power way would violate essence , cannot \? try , one thing relates among navy men get tatoos say mom , love mom makes virile men bobby mozumder \( snm6394 ultb isc rit edu \) april 4 , 1993 one true muslim left world
kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) subject visit jehovah 's witnesses organization case western reserve university lines 48 nntp posting host b64635 student cwru edu article suopanki stekt6 oulu fi suopanki stekt6 oulu fi \( heikki suopanki \) writes god eternal b jesus god c therefore , jesus eternal c b works logically mathematically god set things eternal jesus subset god therefore jesus belongs set things eternal everything n't always logical mercedes car girl mercedes therefore , girl car \? correct incorrect application rules language , seem work mercedes first , one second mercedes case , b c equal one name person , name object simply extract word without taking context account course , case n't imply case , equal try one thing relates among navy men get tatoos say mom , love mom makes virile men bobby mozumder \( snm6394 ultb isc rit edu \) april 4 , 1993 one true muslim left world
nrp st andrews ac uk \( norman r paterson \) subject islam vs jehovah 's witnesses organization society trying really hard lines 25 article 1993apr2 princeton edu qpliu princeton edu writes article 1993apr2 803 batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes god created lucifer perfect nature gave along angels free moral god could prevented lucifer 's fall taking away ability choose moral alternatives \( worship god worship \) , lucifer 's moral choices determined determines \? qpliu princeton edu standard opinion opinions delta correlated bobby posts ago said lucifer free seems jw believes contrary talking lucifer \? , suggest experiment determine wrong \? claim right \? norman
nrp st andrews ac uk \( norman r paterson \) subject share organization st andrews university , scotland lines 66 article 1993apr03 acme gen nz kilroy acme gen nz \( , \) writes bena cs monash edu au \( ben \) writes warning anything like devout christian post really going offend upset numerous ctrl ls deleted hehehe assume everyone familiar christian symbol one back volvos one looks \( something \) like perhaps like \( \) \? '` well , found morning comes 's stolen pagans , like much else \( last last chance ignorant hmm , put well , comes , \( \) ` '` ' sigh , hate drawing ascii chars still , think work n't , go read skinny legs tom robbins 's even 50 accurate modern religions appropriated 's also great book followups alt atheism , whose readers probably slightly k craig harding kilroy acme gen nz acme bbs 64 6 n \? craig thought derived greek acronym greek n't much , goes something like jesus christ , god christos , greek fish \( , eg \) apologies dreadful greek ! perhaps someone correct way , sig mean \? norman
nrp st andrews ac uk \( norman r paterson \) subject genocide caused atheism organization association fun clothes lines 23 article 1993apr5 ultb isc rit edu snm6394 ultb isc rit edu \( n mozumder \) writes one reasons atheist limit god giving god form god face wait minute thought said allah \( presume allah god \) unknowable , yet claiming know concrete fact say god face n't bible say god \? suggest decide \( \) right \? right \? god face \? use quotation marks god face allow interpret mean whatever like \? peace , bobby mozumder norman
qpliu ernie princeton edu \( q p liu \) subject visit jehovah 's witnesses originator news nimaster nntp posting host ernie princeton edu reply qpliu princeton edu organization princeton university lines 34 article 1993apr5 823 batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes article i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de , i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) writes could give definition free \? especially presence omniscient \? self determination words , god created conscious beings ability choose moral choices independently god , therefore , free hypothetical conscious beings ignore influences circumstances \( genetics , environment , experiences \) self determined \? \( course , idea hell makes idea free dubious hand , idea hell powerful idea parable main character blah blah blah one day , thug pointed mean looking gun omc , said , 'do say , i'm blasting hell ' omc thought , 'if believe thug , follow instructions given , 'll avoid getting blasted hell hand , believe thug , follow instructions given , 'll get blasted hell hmm attractive choice obvious , 'll follow instructions ' , omc found choice obvious everything omc learned getting blasted hell made appear undesirable omc noticed thug 's gun n't real gun thug 's threats make believe omc ignored thug resumed blah blah blah \) qpliu princeton edu standard opinion opinions delta correlated
west next02cville wam umd edu \( stilgar \) subject gospel dating nntp posting host wam umd edu reply west wam umd edu organization workstations maryland , university maryland , college park lines 35 article kmr4 1433 po cwru edu kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) writes article 1993apr5 wam umd edu west next02cville wam umd edu \( stilgar \) writes article kmr4 1422 po cwru edu kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) writes article 1993apr5 wam umd edu west next02cville wam umd edu \( stilgar \) writes illiad undisputed word god \( tm \) prove wrong dispute ergo counter example proven wrong dispute counter example ergo counter counter example wrong right nanny nanny boo boo stated undisputed fine illiad word god \( tm \) \( disputed , \) dispute wo n't matter prove wrong brian west sig file earth , sig file blink ok , sig file eye , gone tomorrow , posted west wam umd edu would missed n't care knows \( park \) said , meant , nobody made
kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) subject gospel dating organization case western reserve university lines 26 nntp posting host b64635 student cwru edu article 1993apr6 wam umd edu west next02cville wam umd edu \( stilgar \) writes fine illiad word god \( tm \) \( disputed , \) dispute wo n't matter prove wrong illiad contains one word ergo word god , humbly agree words god , one thing relates among navy men get tatoos say mom , love mom makes virile men bobby mozumder \( snm6394 ultb isc rit edu \) april 4 , 1993 one true muslim left world
subject americans evolution rfox charlie usd edu \( rich fox , univ south dakota \) reply rfox charlie usd edu organization university south dakota computer science dept nntp posting host charlie lines 26 article fido asd sgi com , livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes article darkside osrhe uoknor edu , bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) writes spend much time posting atheism incidental , question god trivial \? , matters great deal ask two questions 1 important mithras life today \? 2 important would mithras become well funded group fanatics trying get schools system teach children mithras one true god \? jon right , jon ! cares whose , long works individual n't try impose beliefs us children would add well funded group tries also purge science , deny children access great wonders skills kids born creationists \? burden begin adult life must cruel finally see light , provided possible escape depths type ignorance
chrisb tafe sa edu au \( chris bell \) subject visit jehovah 's witnesses organization south australian regional academic research network lines 26 distribution world nntp posting host tafe sa edu au jbrown batman bmd trw com writes syllogism form b c therefore c b logically valid construction syllogism , however , form b c b therefore c therefore logically invalid construction , comments n't apply appeal mathew \( mantis \) wrote excellent post \( part faq \) logical argument jim b mathew \( mantis \) \( successful \) first year logic student see logically correct , poster logically incorrect know nothing believe
ingles engin umich edu \( ray ingles \) subject concerning god 's morality \( americans evolution \) organization university michigan engineering , ann arbor lines 110 distribution world nntp posting host engin umich edu article 1993apr2 808 batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes babies get diseases , etc god create life according protein code evolve without delving deep discussion creationism vs , 's \( main \) problem scenario outline reasonably consistent , evidence familiar support , indicates something far different earth , latest estimates , 4 6 billion years old , life 3 5 billion years humans around \( \) 200 , 000 years , fossil evidence life changing evolving , , fact , disease ridden , long people \( yes , fossils show signs disease mostly bone disorders , course , \) heck , fossil evidence , 've able glean genetic study shows disease around long , long time human sin brought disease \( least , indirectly , though necessarily \) could exist humans \? god created original genetic code perfect without flaw without getting theological ramifications original sin , main effect called original sin discussion remove humanity god 's protection since choice e cut intimate fellowship god addition , sin caused come dominion satan , assumed dominion earth deletions since humanity longer god 's protection satan 's dominion , great feat satan genetically engineer diseases , bacterial viral genetic although forces natural selection tend improve species , degeneration genetic code tends offset uh know many evolutionary biologists , know biology claim , strongly disagree evidence human genetic code \( \) perfect condition seems adapt , collective sense i'm really curious mean 'the degeneration genetic human dna , complex , tends accumulate errors adversely affecting well ability fight disease , simpler dna bacteria viruses tend become efficient causing infection disease bad combination umm nah , seem pretty good job viruses bacteria , us small percentage harmful humans small percentage seems constant size , ranks keep changing example , plague used really nasty disease , i'm sure 'll agree still pops time time , even today n't much damage part better sanitation , even people get disease , symptoms tend less severe past seems partly people susceptible died long ago , really nasty variants , \( forgive poor terminology , i'm engineer , doctor ! \) died lack nearby hosts could wrong , gather acne hundred years old , used , though killer seems getting less nasty w age hence newborns suffer genetic , viral , bacterial diseases disorders , wait minute question humans created perfect , right \? , admit inbuilt fight disease seems unlikely satan , 's making diseases , would also gift humans means fight simpler make diseases less lethal , wants survivors far see , immune systems , imperfect though may \( presently \? \) , must built us god want clear saying god planning ahead time satan would charge building immune system , time design , necessary \? , god made immune systems ahead time , knowing adam eve would sin descendents would need fight diseases \? may mystical supernatural explanation prepared accept , god responsible disease even satan nothing original inception disease , evolution random chance would produced since humanity forsook god 's protection 's another puzzle , exactly , mean phrase , perfect without \? mind , system would incapable degrading time system , without constant intervention , become imperfect perfect system least , imho god something like writing masterpiece novel bunch gum wrappers held together elmer 's glue \? , original genetic perfect , inferior materials carefully tended would fall apart \? , could god used better materials \? god incapable creating system could maintain , choose \? deletions summary , newborns innocent , god cause suffering main point , said , really n't evidence explanation give \( least , i'm aware \) , could n't help making sincerely , ray ingles opinions probably university ingles engin umich edu michigan yet
ingles engin umich edu \( ray ingles \) subject concerning god 's morality \( long \) organization university michigan engineering , ann arbor lines 32 distribution world nntp posting host engin umich edu article 1993apr5 084042 822 batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes article 1993apr3 24632 leland stanford edu , leland stanford edu \( scott compton \) writes deletions , back post done fine job using seventh grade course explain bad diseases caused satan good things result god want let little secret create amino acid sequence lab ! guess , sequence curls helix ! wow ! 's right , happen without supernatural force wow ! takes advanced science degrees millions dollars state art equipment thought took intelligence create building blocks life foolish ! people advanced science degrees use state art equipment spend millions dollars simulate require intelligence exist , equipment needed really 'state art ' study products , yes , generate want sure read post provide response , send copy jim brown oz bmd trw com ca n't read every day , posts slip thanks oh , sincerely , ray ingles opinions probably university ingles engin umich edu michigan yet
robert knowles p00261 psilink com subject anecdote islam reply 9s2 fido asd sgi com nntp posting host 127 0 0 1 organization kupajava , east krakatoa x mailer psilink dos \( 3 3 \) lines 32 date 5 apr 1993 23 32 28 gmt jon livesey livesey solntze wpd sgi com article bu edu , jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) writes n't understand point petty sarcasm basic principle islam one born muslim one says testify god god mohammad prophet god , long one explicitly reject islam word one must considered muslim muslims phenomenon 're attempting make general rule psychology direct odds basic islamic principles want attack islam could better argue something islam explicitly contradicts mr mozumder incorrect says committing bad acts , people temporarily become atheists \? jon course b incorrect defending islam defending islam say anything one dare criticize atheist uses argument using petty sarcasm b temporary atheists whenever needs temporary atheists later say always good muslims never explicitly rejected islam temporary atheism , temporary islam , temporary marriage none sticks teflon religion convenient easy clean , would expect bunch people ca n't even agree phases moon \?
kempmp phoenix oulu fi \( petri pihko \) subject concerning god 's morality \( long \) organization university oulu , finland x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 215 kind argument cries comment jbrown batman bmd trw com wrote article 1993apr3 24632 leland stanford edu , leland stanford edu \( scott compton \) writes jim , originally wrote god create disease responsible newborns god create life according protein code evolve without delving deep discussion creationism vs , god created original genetic code perfect without flaw evidence \? code perfect , ever since , evidence favour statement , n't \? perhaps biggest code full non coding regions , introns , called intervene coding regions \( \) impressive amount evidence suggests introns ancient origin likely early represented early protein domains number introns decreasing increasing \? appears intron loss occur , species common ancestry usually quite similar intron structure genes hand , possibility introns inserted later , presents several logical difficulties introns removed splicing mechanism would present , unused , introns inserted moreover , intron insertion would required precise targeting random insertion would tolerated , since sequences intron removal \( self splicing \) conserved besides , transposition sequence usually leaves trace long terminal repeats target site , found near intron sequences seriously recommend reading textbooks molecular biology genetics posting theological arguments like try watson 's molecular biology gene darnell , baltimore 's molecular biology cell starters remember , question posed theological context \( god cause disease newborns \? \) , answer likewise theological perspective less valid purely scientific perspective , different scientific perspective supported evidence , whereas theological perspectives often fail fulfil criterion think misread meaning said god made genetic code perfect , n't mean 's perfect certainly evolved since worse \? would please cite references support assertion \? assertion less valid scientific perspective , unless support evidence fact , claimed parasites diseases perhaps important 've thought instance , sex might evolved defence parasites \( view supported computer simulations evolution , eg tierra \) perhaps thought higher energy rays like x rays , gamma rays , cosmic rays caused damage fact , thermal energy damage , although usually mild easily fixed action actually , neither us knows atmosphere like time god created life according recollection , biologists claim life began 4 billion years ago , would half billion years earth created would still primitive support life seem remember figure like 2 5 3 billion years ago life earth anyone better estimate \? 'd replace created formed , since need invoke creator earth formed without one recent estimates age earth range 4 6 4 8 billion years , earliest signs life \( true fossils , organic , like layers \) date back 3 5 billion years would leave billion years first cells evolve i'm sorry ca n't give references , based course evolutionary biochemistry attended dominion , great feat satan genetically engineer diseases , bacterial viral genetic although forces natural selection tend improve species , degeneration genetic code tends offset , want true , evidence supposed degeneration \? understand scott 's reaction excuse , far fetched know must know pathogens \? know point mutations \? know everything come spontaneously \? ! ! ! ! ! response last statement , , neither may well believe accept fact , cannot know hope n't forget evidence suggests everything come spontaneously evidence conclusion \? science , one believe anything healthy sign doubt disbelieve right path walk take look evidence , present one 's conclusions prior theology use method therefore , seriously doubt could ever come right conclusions human dna , complex , tends accumulate errors adversely affecting well ability fight disease , simpler dna bacteria viruses tend become efficient causing infection disease bad combination hence newborns suffer genetic , viral , bacterial diseases disorders supposing purpose , valid move bacteria viruses exist cause disease another manifests general principle evolution replication saves efficient method dna survive replicate less efficient methods n't make present last time please present evidence claim human dna degrading evolutionary processes people claimed opposite true suppressed selection , thus bound degrade n't seen much evidence either claim ask , \? relevant discussion answering john 's question \? genetic diseases , many bacterial viral diseases require babies develop antibodies god 's fault \? \( original question \) say , course , nothing evil god 's fault explanation work , fails miserably may right fact n't know satan responsible , neither suppose powerful , evil like satan exists would might responsible many affect mankind \? n't think could done much better job \( pun intended \) problem , seems satan necessary explain diseases , inevitable product evolution say \? \? seems like another bad inference actually 've done said point summary words takes new context never said people meant \( presumably god \) punished getting diseases say free moral choices consequences mankind chooses reject god , people done since beginning , expect god protect adverse events entropic universe expecting god exists , expect leave us alone would also like hear believe choices indeed free interesting philosophical question , answer clear cut seems consequences would expect rejecting allah \? oh , admit 's perfect \( yet \) i'm working \) good library bookstore good starting point price tea china , question provided answer \? biology genetics fine subjects important scientific endeavors explain god created set life processes n't explain behind creation , life , subsequent evolution behind \? proposition something supported evidence recommend books need invoke behind , prime mover \? evidence \? whole universe come existence without intervention , recent cosmological theories \( hawking et al \) suggest , people still insist \? thanks scotty , fine advice highly motivated learn nitty gritty details biology genetics , although i'm sure 'd find fascinating subject realize details change big picture , god created life beginning ability change adapt environment i'm sorry , evidence big picture , need create anything capable adaptation come existence without supreme try reading p w creation revisited \( freeman , 1992 \) petri ' '' petri pihko kem pmp mathematics truth ! ' ' ' ' ' pihatie 15 c finou oulu fi physics rule ' ' ' sf 90650 oulu kempmp game ' finland phoenix oulu fi chemistry game
guncer enuxha eas asu edu \( selim guncer \) subject islam dress code women organization arizona state university , tempe , az lines 53 article i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) writes article 1993apr5 monu6 cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au \( fred rice \) writes \( 2 \) women souls islam \? people said muslims say women souls must admit never heard view held muslims era heard christians eras holding viewpoint , muslims sure might confusing christian history islamic history \? yes , supposed predominant view turkish aware turkish viewpoint reference \? however , found quote due imam ali , follow men , never obey women way whatsoever never let give advice matter whatsoever , even everyday life indeed , allow freely give advice anything away one 's wealth disobey wishes owner wealth see without religion , , alone , left devices lacking pity virtue desires stake easy enjoy , cause great anxiety among corrupt whores age deprived charm vice three qualities particular complain oppressed , whereas oppress make oaths , whereas lying pretend refuse men 's , whereas desire let us beg help god emerge victorious evil deeds preserve us case good ones \( quote al , ref , sexuality islam , p 118 \) would n't consider quote exemplary islamic \( tm \) viewpoint though know , prophet 's cousin fourth ali may said frustrating night woman selim guncer selim e guncer , luna , asu en mi \( 602 \) 965 4096 los guncer enuxha eas asu edu yo \( \)
csiro au \( graham jenkins 61 6 276 \) subject islamic authority women organization csiro lines 41 article 1993apr5 ultb isc rit edu , snm6394 ultb isc rit edu \( n mozumder \) writes 's mistake would better children mother raised child one thing relates among navy men get tatoos say mom , love mom makes virile men compare homos raised study get point way claim would better men stayed home raised child something false made feminists seek status men recognize fact men women natural differences physically , mentally also bobby , 's question ask posts n't sort extended , elaborate hoax , trying hard convince entire civilised world 're feeble minded \? talent saying absurd things 's little sign , print , cut put top computer terminal engage brain prior operating keyboard \( said , must admit get laugh stuff \) graham jenkins graham jenkins csiro au csiro \( commonwealth scientific industrial canberra , australia research organisation \)
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject jews ca n't hide keith cco organization sgi lines 16 distribution world nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article austin ibm com , karner austin ibm com \( f karner \) writes , consider german poster 's remark anti semitic \? someone says 1000 years roaming around ok come back , kill , get land back , right \? yes , 's casual antisemitism think plenty ways criticize israeli policy without insulting jews jewish history ca n't \? jon
chrisb tafe sa edu au \( chris bell \) subject n't innocents die without death penalty \? organization south australian regional academic research network lines 19 distribution world nntp posting host tafe sa edu au james f tims p00168 psilink com writes maintaining classes e , even prison , seems place innocent people higher risk unjust death would state executed classes e occasional error would rather higher risk killed actually killed mistake though agree concept type e murderers massive waste space resources n't agree concept killing wrong kill punish punishment kill seems lacking consistency know nothing believe
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject islam dress code women organization sgi lines 12 distribution world nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article 1993apr6 eas asu edu , guncer enuxha eas asu edu \( selim guncer \) writes would n't consider quote exemplary islamic \( tm \) viewpoint though know , prophet 's cousin fourth ali may said frustrating night woman 's interesting wonder , women 's reactions recorded frustrating night man \? considered important \? jon
ingles engin umich edu \( ray ingles \) subject must creator ! \( maybe \) organization university michigan engineering , ann arbor lines 51 distribution world nntp posting host engin umich edu article 1993apr2 806 batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes article 1993apr2 bradford ac uk , l newnham bradford ac uk \( leonard newnham \) writes deletions argument incredulity considered valid form reasoning since medieval times deletions interesting mention argument incredulity considered valid form reasoning since medieval times quite agree , atheists engage \? times read posts atheists posting state see gracious loving god allow evil suffering occur see earth ' simply cannot envision , must true argument incredulity , n't know ! presented , indeed argument incredulity however , seen , often presented manner usually presented form , besides , cannot see ever offered convincing explanation moreover , unreasonable ask explanation phenomena theism provide convincing explanation argument theism 's favor especially different theisms offer different explanations , even different adherents purportedly theism give different explanations god far complex motivations reasons action non action simply fix evil whenever however occurs , even occurs yet , argument incredulity ranks high among reasons atheists \( general \) reject god particular christian god im experience experience , common reason lack evidence theism 's favor mileage may vary seems universal bane human reasoning rationality , wit , far easier see logical fallacy inept reasoning part one 's opponents see oneself oh , heck , 'll snide 's also fairly easy attack arguments made \( e \) one man wisdom put , take log eye try remove splinter neighbor 's eye sage advice indeed sincerely , raymond ingles ingles engin umich edu apple every eight hours keeps three doctors away b
ednclark kraken itc gu edu au \( jeffrey clark \) subject political atheists \? nntp posting host kraken itc gu edu au organization itc , griffith university , brisbane , australia lines 31 keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) writes mathew mathew mantis co uk writes perhaps n't people could watch closely instead cost would probably similar , especially implanted sort electronic device wait commit crime \? implant devices potential criminals like communists atheists \? sorry , n't follow reasoning proposing punish people commit crime \? justification \? , mathew proposing public defence mechanism , treating electronic device saying next step beyond propose permanent bugging potential criminals may , surface , sound like bad thing , defines potential criminal \? government day decides member opposition party makes potential criminal openly defying government becomes lethal practice , conducive free society mathew saying electronic surveillance devices upon people upon person , regardless type crime chance basically see criminal justice system punishment offender possibly , therefore , future offenders mathew sees , probably , means rehabilitation offender cynical , okay \? jeff
tamvm1 tamu edu subject little satanic organization texas university lines 21 nntp posting host tamvm1 tamu edu article mimsy umd edu mangoe cs umd edu \( charley wingate \) writes nanci ann miller writes corrupted theory pretty weak comparison current hebrew text old versions translations shows text fact changed little space two millennia n't suprising people believe text manner likely makes pains make good copies tell king james , mate c wingate peace god , peace , strife closed sod mangoe cs umd edu yet , brothers , pray one thing tove ! mangoe marv'lous peace god john burke , summa tamu edu
robert knowles p00261 psilink com subject islamic marriage \? reply austin ibm com nntp posting host 127 0 0 1 organization kupajava , east krakatoa x mailer psilink dos \( 3 3 \) lines 44 date tue , 6 apr 1993 00 11 49 gmt f karner karner austin ibm com article 1993apr2 cadence com , mas cadence com \( masud khan \) writes article austin ibm com karner austin ibm com \( f karner \) writes okay want name names \? obviously official records pseudo marriages performed convenience happens typically woman willing move lover without legal contracts speak man merely utilizing loophole entering temporary religious marriage contract order sex nobody complains , nobody cares , nobody needs know perhaps alert imam could practice far widespread may think maybe takes 4 muslim men witness penetration decide practice exists ! level ignorance display , muslims allowed enter temporary marriages , got \? evidence outlawed practise get facts straight buddy give references tell everyone lying widespread may think \( \) fact contrary fantasies practised amongst muslims miss post topic quote indonesian handbook fred rice 's comments temporary marriages \? , glad repost accept may practice among muslims , \? continue claim lying practised amongst muslims n't think f karner tell everyone anything least lying since obviously know nothing practice , little contribute discussion except accuse everyone lying perhaps ignorance showing learn islam learn muslims open eyes maybe also see things atheists see
subject n't innocents die without death penalty \? lippard skyblu ccit arizona edu \( james j lippard \) distribution world , local organization university arizona nntp posting host skyblu ccit arizona edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 lines 21 article chrisb , chrisb tafe sa edu au \( chris bell \) writes killing wrong kill punish punishment kill seems lacking consistency holding people wrong hold people punish punishment hold punishment n't something , done private person another private person apparent reason , would lead punishment \? \( fines , suppose \) jim lippard lippard ccit arizona edu dept philosophy lippard arizvms bitnet university arizona tucson , az 85721
subject visit jehovah 's witnesses lippard skyblu ccit arizona edu \( james j lippard \) suopanki stekt6 oulu fi kmr4 1444 po cwru edu distribution world , local organization university arizona nntp posting host skyblu ccit arizona edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 lines 26 article kmr4 1444 po cwru edu , kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) writes article suopanki stekt6 oulu fi suopanki stekt6 oulu fi \( heikki suopanki \) writes god eternal b jesus god c therefore , jesus eternal c b works logically mathematically god set things eternal jesus subset god therefore jesus belongs set things eternal first premise conclusion properly translated identity statements , since statements rather identity instead , translated using predicate letter using g designate god j designate jesus , predicate letter e property eternal , first premise eg conclusion ej second premise appears contain identity , case properly symbolized j g remark jesus subset god suggests strict identity desired , however , first premise means members making set god property eternal , conclusion follows jim lippard lippard ccit arizona edu dept philosophy lippard arizvms bitnet university arizona tucson , az 85721
subject visit jehovah 's witnesses lippard skyblu ccit arizona edu \( james j lippard \) distribution world , local organization university arizona nntp posting host skyblu ccit arizona edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 lines 27 article chrisb , chrisb tafe sa edu au \( chris bell \) writes jbrown batman bmd trw com writes syllogism form b c therefore c b logically valid construction syllogism , however , form b c b therefore c therefore logically invalid construction , comments n't apply 's identity , valid , however , b predicate , second syllogism invalid \( first syllogism , pointed , valid whether b predicate designates individual \) jim lippard lippard ccit arizona edu dept philosophy lippard arizvms bitnet university arizona tucson , az 85721
stank cbnewsl cb att com \( stan krieger \) subject soc motss , et al princeton axes matching funds boy scouts article cbnewsl 1993apr6 organization summit nj lines 39 student writes somewhere , roger colin shouse writes radical gay dogma somewhere else claims claim claim knowing n't know least twenty instances kind fourth reich shit postings maybe fact i'm sure instances could counted , reproduce like virus consider words question best response weasels like shouse stan krieger \? possibilities \( \) study figure work , \( 1 \) remember 've learned combat clones get office \( 2 \) contribute insights favorite abnormal psych ward \( b \) learn overcome serial murder posting totally uncalled rec scouting point raised answered roger clearly stated support bsa position issue specifically , homosexual behavior constitutes violation scout oath \( specifically , promise live morally straight \) really nothing else discuss trying cloud issue comparisons blacks minorities also meaningless 's like comparing apples oranges \( e , people ca n't control race control behavior \) else possibly discuss rec scouting issue \? nobody , including bsa , denying anybody right live worship please n't please , n't mean bsa big bad wolf adhering recognized , positive , religious moral standards society established continue based stan krieger opinions , advice , suggestions , even unix system laboratories related employment , summit , nj usl com
davidk welch jhu edu \( david go go \) subject little satanic nntp posting host welch jhu edu reply davidk welch jhu edu organization welch medical library lines 21 article mimsy umd edu , mangoe cs umd edu \( charley wingate \) writes ann miller writes p p favorite reply literal minded complaint p bible really inspired god really p important , would make damn certain translators p scribes people interpreting copying getting right , p literally , put merit something p corrupted man even p originally inspired god \? p corrupted theory pretty weak comparison hebrew text old versions translations shows text fact changed little space two millennia n't suprising people believe text manner likely makes pains make good copies well corrupted first time good enough seeing bible constructed 400 years jesus 's death , text merchants \( ie owe owe \) wonder anyone take literal word seriously obviously intended nonsense , otherwise authors bible would need \( sp \) asians contents make sense
davidk welch jhu edu \( david go go \) subject americans evolution nntp posting host welch jhu edu reply davidk welch jhu edu organization welch medical library lines 56 p atheism incidental , question god trivial p p p p matters great deal idiots try force belief , p try enforce creation myths taught scientific p fact school , tell morals morals p god , successful presidential candidate says atheist p n't considered citizen could n't patriotic p one nation god , fundies try take p party may well provide next president united states p america force beliefs rest country , p et cetera p p 's subscribe alt atheism p p middle , people n't mind readers pop p alt atheism tell n't believe , concoct p straw man reason n't share particular belief p p think accept \? p p n't particularly dig fundamentalist christians p told alt atheism reject allah proud embrace p islam , reject krishna eyes closed p religious nuts post alt atheism kind militant p christian ca n't accept others n't share beliefs p kind stuff kept talk religion misc , belongs p p atheism belief , absence belief gods p p p problem \? p p p bill , would like say atheism fact belief belief something hold faith atheist says gods cannot proven therefore excepting alone belief secondly , complain much christians trying force beliefs , n't anything atheists , o'hare \( founder atheists association austin texas \) , robert sherman \( chicago area \) trying force beliefs everyone trying get rid god society banning religious paintings parks , forcing cities change town seals mention god \( like sherman done \) , trying get slogan god trust american currency \? also talk creation myths fact myths tha p p p concrete probably n't enforces point atheism much belief christianity please show n't real problem argument christianity seem ignore origin origin soon christians become good non ego buddhists supposed , might listen opinion , speak place employment christ rated , atf follow koresh \( current christ \) heaven \?
bevans carina unm edu \( \) subject alt atheism faq introduction atheism organization society preservation e coli lines 12 distribution world nntp posting host carina unm edu keywords faq , atheism addition faq regarding atheist hospitals recall correctly , johns hopkins built provide medical services without backing religious group thus making hospital dedicated glory weak atheism might someone check \? brian evans bad mood , bad mood sure i'm bad mood ! bevans carina unm edu n't sex ever ! virgin mary
naren tekig1 pen tek com \( naren bala \) subject theists posting organization tektronix , inc , beaverton , lines 21 article ra nrl navy mil khan itd itd nrl navy mil \( umar khan \) writes stuff deleted concordance faq \? translation considered authoritative \? orthodox commentary faq available \? one faq militant atheists another moderate atheists , read faq \? , resolve differences interpretation \? hmmmmmmmmmmmm put question followers religion moslems resolve differences opinion \? \? n't tell one interpretation quran read soc culture newsgroups zillions different interpretations naren naren tekig1 pen tek com standard disclaimers apply
naren tekig1 pen tek com \( naren bala \) subject genocide caused atheism organization tektronix , inc , beaverton , lines 19 snm6394 ultb isc rit edu \( n mozumder \) writes horrible deaths resulted atheism anything else list killings name religion 1 iran iraq war 1 , 000 , 000 2 civil war sudan 1 , 000 , 000 3 , riots india pakistan 1947 1 , 000 , 000 4 bangladesh 1971 1 , 000 , 000 5 america x million \( x \? \? \) 6 crusades \? \? sure people add lot list wonder bobby say standard excuses accepted naren standard disclaimers apply
richard co uk \( richard brooksby \) subject genocide caused atheism organization harlequin ltd , cambridge , uk lines 21 nanci ann miller nm0w andrew cmu edu writes snm6394 ultb isc rit edu \( n mozumder \) writes horrible deaths resulted atheism anything else definitely quite horrible deaths result atheists theists perhaps , since i'm bit weak history , somone would like give list wars caused led theists \? thread seems arguing validity religious viewpoint according principle , e atheism religion wrong causes death underlying death rather arbitrary measure validity get epistemology richard harlequin com \( internet \) richard harlequin co uk \( internet \) uk ac cambridge phoenix \( janet \) zen buddhist
nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \( david nye \) subject radical agnostic ! organization university wisconsin eau claire lines 51 reply austin ibm com \( e h \) means possibly think prove beyond doubt god exist \( anyone one , means , tell \) therefore , lacking ability absolute proof , atheist becomes act faith , cannot accept accept nothing blind faith invisible pink flying unicorns ! need say \? harbor beliefs , good evidence god existing folks call agnosticism suffer blind faith think n't worry , happy many atheists , lack belief gods secondary consideration accept reliable way knowing \? known valid logical arguments existence gods , empirical evidence exist philosophers theologians agree idea god one must accepted faith faith belief without sound logical basis empirical evidence reliable way knowing \? probably nothing else people would accept absence possibility proof even agree take someone elses word faith , mean found person reliable past , judge likely reliable source find faith less reliable logic empirical evidence everywhere else , assume provide reliable knowledge gods \? difference atheist theist fundamentally one whether faith held reliable way knowing , rather , agnostic posters would , whether ones faith gods gods theist believes faith acceptable basis belief gods , even rejects faith reliable times , example work scientist atheist believes logic empirical evidence lead reliable knowledge agnosticism seems less defensible position theism atheism , unless one regards knowledge without evidence , believe gods rather santa claus easter bunny \? would also like point others atheist n't require absolute knowledge lack gods n't believe thing absolute knowledge atheism best simplest theory fit \( lack \) facts held contrary evidence found david nye \( nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \) midelfort clinic , eau claire wi patently absurd whoever wishes become philosopher must learn frightened absurdities bertrand russell
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject keith ignorant seems \? organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 16 nntp posting host lloyd caltech edu mam mouse cmhnet org \( mike mcangus \) writes , everything would n't ok , would start wait , religious organizations longer tax exempt , beef could \? would much right lobby would group asked would everything okay answered everything encompasses tax exempt status religious organizations well , everything would n't okay , tell us would n't okay , religions longer tax exempt , would wrong lobbying otherwise attempting influence politics \? keith
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject keith schneider stealth poster \? organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 19 nntp posting host lloyd caltech edu mam mouse cmhnet org \( mike mcangus \) writes let see understand saying order talk religion , atheists must first religion rare individual could left , n't understand said n't think people discuss subjective merits religion objectively obvious people said everyone would better without religion , almost certainly n't true really , threatened motto , people use \? motto tool let 's try take away tool , guns axes tools , used murder taken away \? say , n't think motto misuse warrants removal least case keith
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject keith schneider stealth poster \? organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 26 nntp posting host lloyd caltech edu cmtan iss nus sg \( tan chade meng dan \) writes somewhat agree u however , comes \( theist \) religion , 's different matter 's religion like drug , u use , 's difficult get 's order experience religion , u necessarily blind faith , u blind faith , 's reason back atheism therefore , 's unreasonable ask people try religion order judge 's like asking people try dying find death like well , ca n't judge death dead right \? , judge religion without experienced \? people said religion bad account , way useful , etc , n't totally agree course , cannot really say religious folk would act exposed religion , people least seemed helped ways basically , judge whether religion right route given individual , even general population say best us personally \( least , choose use religion might hard try find benefits , state \) keith
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject political atheists \? organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 57 nntp posting host lloyd caltech edu adobe com \( michael wang \) writes looking rigorous definition otherwise would spending rest lives arguing christian really believes n't think need argue ks think motto points country proud ks freedom religion , something ks distinguishes us many countries \? mw ks well , opinion shared people , gather perhaps , seeking make government recognize christianity dominant religion country think infringing rights others share beliefs yes , also many people trying make government recognize christianity dominant religion country think motto upon rights others share beliefs actually , think government already recognize christianity dominant religion country mean , n't realize recognize \? n't say supposed believe teachings christianity , people like 've said personally n't think motto major concern agree , discussing \? ks since people n't seem associate christmas jesus much ks anymore , n't see problem prove assertion people u n't associate christmas jesus anymore \? , hear quite bit christmas , little anything jesus would n't figure prominent holiday really associated high degree \? saying association jesus personal level , everyone thinks never talks \? , prove people associate christmas importantly jesus \? anyways , point people associate christmas jesus n't matter people majority think numbers matter takes majority , least majority power , discriminate n't \? keith
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject political atheists \? organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 25 nntp posting host lloyd caltech edu livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes probability automobile system kill someone innocent accident goes close 1 , like court system however , anyone n't like automobile system opt , n't true many people forced use automobile system certainly n't use choice ways getting around , 'd secondly , try make automobile system safe possible , recognize danger innocent , whereas us current example trying make court system safer , could fairly easily replacing fatal punishments non fatal punishments think court system refined hundreds years us , britain , countries tried make fair possible made better \( without removing death penalty \) \? besides , life imprisonment sounds like fatal punishment keith
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject political atheists \? organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 12 nntp posting host lloyd caltech edu shrike und ac za \( roy \) writes keith allan schneider \( keith cco caltech edu \) wrote soldiers dependent religion , number purposes doubt dependent cocaine , yet n't see military paying coca fields religion certainly benefits combat situation , benefits cocaine \? keith
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject pompous ass organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 226 nntp posting host lloyd caltech edu psuvm psu edu writes many people would probably think \( especially fanatics \) conflict atheists religious many would get impression trying outlaw religion , try remove things religious reference 's people 've asked think perhaps would right said fundamentalists would think way , think oppressed allowed oppress however , shown get idea people would think 's atheism vs religion , winner take far tell , groundless prediction happen n't taken account propoganda remember , asked germans wwii jews shoudl slaughtered , would probably answer , , propoganda machine rolled , least able tolerate see , takes small group fanatics whip general frenzy propoganda machines gear number issues , including abortion gays look things happened well , far passed one amendment , currently intense scrutiny , failed outlaw abortion , prime goal issue yep , seem sooo effective sure well , n't managed outlaw abortion due possible objectivity courts , managed create quite problems people wanted abortion could create similar problems us , could worse try stop abortions blocking clinics , etc , imagine 'd stop atheism besides , margin error large talk two people better one , , opinion also , informal survey half dozen , said \? questions unbiased \? keith , would claim questions biased minute posted , answers agreed everyone asked possible removal motto \( christian portion \) expressed regret loss , like however , pointed new motto works , none expressed desire rape , murder , pillage , etc , basically claimed , able convince individually , could convince whole room \? whole nation \? atheist portion \( know around \) , expressed disgust motto noted harassed christians used motto try seem justified would see gone yes , 'd glad gone 've never supported however , think minor problem easily ignored , contrasted could happen \( may likely \) christians designed motto \? motto say anything jesus \? think refers christians \? christians wrote christians think religion right , others wrong therefore , would religions realm correct \? doubt religions meant included well , clear religious convictions francis scott key \( motto attributed \) , least clear believed god , surely christians think say , n't think think christians actively despise religions \? met n't n't christian thinks means anything , ask people faiths \? sorry , would , christianity awfully popular around suppose could ask people \? well , asked hindu , , jews , think applicable course , ca n't say people \( know pretty well \) accurate representations faiths always good idea assume views given issue assuming views , nothing leads conclusion without evidence contrary , doubt opinions claim provide evidence assertion well , 'd really like , 've tried , really n't know get access congressional records 1950 's anyone help \? comparing christians nazis \? interesting sense neither probably convinced change beliefs , , motto money n't cost anything extra however , abolished motto , 'd pay dies plates like people paid get changed motto need show good reason change everything also , doubt use plates year 's printing would make easy remove motto \( simply make next year 's plates without \) claim , evidently , pay extra somewhere provide evidence assertion , saying redesign plates year \? anyway , whole argument \( conveniently deleted see \) motto somehow costs us lot money correct ones read n't mention anything jesus think issue concerning distinction religion could religious religious \? motto refers god religious motto question whether christian say doubt provide evidence assertion say , religion country , non religion ussr quotes , included atheists , general , well n't think quotes \( although seem lost \) mentioned anything jesus advocated religion non religion specific religion mentioned missed point said motto n't say anything anyone particular , motto n't imply anything particular beliefs n't say everyone trusts form god , nation whole 's obvious include much beyond doubt claim , , motto refers christians based facts christianity says religions wrong , seems motto written christians , doubt claim , saying christians must believe religions outlawed , think wrong \? 's silly think flat earthers wrong , n't advocate based idea doubt additional expense would even incurred removing motto provide evidence claim would think cost would insignificant mentioned slight cost said motto costing us lot money currency disregarding digression motto used harassment , purpose found , removed \? well , general n't really purposes n't think removed think benefit would consequences know vote \? opinions \? think main reason motto required law bother atheists \? think majority congress time mind \? , show , opinion people put concerned concerned opinion entire congress , necessary complete majority shared purpose confronting motto \? majority put general public probably know anti atheist intent people 50 's either people remember 50 's time key wrote anthem remember debate surrounding motto \? remember people intended message atheists \? n't include little survey conducting \? claim scientists would believe someone 's claims doubt provide evidence assertion \? ask scientists probability something einstein said relativity worthy \? mean , einstein said , 's good chance right \( least time \) courts , method scientists use applied need agree court default record ' need agree time , would certainly think decisions would good evidence favor point \? said n't agree court allowed congress attempt make amendment prohibiting flag burning n't realize something like external realm court 's power , confident know anything court 's powers \? mean , n't know court works , participate discussion court \? judge go speak congress still ignore abortion gag rule , make claims abortion , think would clearly inappropriate supreme court justice testify congress consideration constitutional amendment , order court rule something , case usually must presented mushrooms , flowers , trees , buildings , signs , whatever analogy something might find offensive present n't mean rights violated talking something put people , keith mushroom one caused mushroom exist , unless 're finding things offensive mushroom farm yes , mushrooms planted , n't appreciate mushrooms pizza , either case motto 're ignoring harassment known result motto , 're ignoring somewhere along line people forced put motto forced put motto \? mean \? keith
mathew mathew mantis co uk subject visit jehovah 's witnesses organization mantis consultants , cambridge uk x newsreader rusnews v1 01 lines 37 suopanki oulu fi writes 5 apr 93 11 24 30 mst , jbrown batman bmd trw com said god eternal b jesus god c therefore , jesus eternal c b works logically mathematically god set things eternal jesus subset god therefore jesus belongs set things eternal everything n't always logical mercedes car girl mercedes therefore , girl car \? unfortunately phrasing ambiguous writing carefully , \( least \) two possibilities first things called mercedes cars girl called mercedes therefore girl car entirely valid piece logical deduction sound , first statement false similarly , would hold jim 's example valid sound another possible interpretation wrote exists least one car called mercedes girl called mercedes therefore girl car n't valid mathew
mathew mathew mantis co uk subject political atheists \? organization mantis consultants , cambridge uk x newsreader rusnews v1 01 lines 15 keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) writes mathew mathew mantis co uk writes perhaps n't people could watch closely instead cost would probably similar , especially implanted sort electronic device wait commit crime \? implant devices potential criminals like communists atheists \? sorry , n't follow reasoning proposing punish people commit crime \? justification \? look irony , keith mathew
mathew mathew mantis co uk subject political atheists \? organization mantis consultants , cambridge uk x newsreader rusnews v1 01 lines 19 keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) writes mathew mathew mantis co uk writes rape , surely burden guilt solely rapist \? thrown cage tiger get mauled , blame tiger \? far know , tigers sentient pushed pool dolphins attacked , might inclined blame dolphins rather person pushing , \( \) dolphins usually aggressive \( b \) seem well developed brains capacity abstract thought matter fact , tigers rarely attack humans unless human provokes course , cage far small , might count provocation mathew
mathew mathew mantis co uk subject political atheists \? organization mantis consultants , cambridge uk x newsreader rusnews v1 01 lines 22 kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) writes \( almost sure b immediate painless method death , insert form \) , ethnic minority groups killed , mutilated exterminated history , guess unusual , would agree would allowed us constitution \? far , punishment doubt recieved would considered fair trial us standards n't sure look happened japanese citizens us world war ii 're prepared say let 's round people stick concentration camp without trial , 's short step gassing without trial , seems nazis originally intended imprison jews final solution partly could n't afford run camps devastation caused goering 's total war n't gassed generally died malnutrition disease mathew
tony lezard tony mantis co uk subject atheist \? distribution world organization mantis consultants , cambridge uk lines 50 i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) writes article mantis co uk tony lezard tony mantis co uk writes \( deletion \) opinion strong atheist position requires much belief comfortable strong atheists care comment \? humans come idea spiritual parent one artifacts human thought evidence quite overwhelming information content conceived vanishing words , gods , would hardly make sense , possible explain phenomenon religion without gods concept useless , n't introduce new assumptions order show leap faith required mileage may vary yes fully agree , n't believe gods exist , believe gods exist \? mandtbacka finabo abo fi \( mats andtbacka \) pointed , hinges take word believe mean unfortunately bound definitions strong weak atheism , least according faq atheism characterized absence belief existence god atheists go , believe god exist former often referred weak atheist position , latter strong atheism important note difference two positions weak atheism simple scepticism disbelief existence god strong atheism positive belief god exist please fall trap assuming atheists strong atheists \( mathew 's introduction atheism version 1 2 last modified 5 apr 93 \) faq clarified try pin notion belief \? \? tony lezard tony mantis co uk tony mantis co uk uknet ac uk things like tony uk co mantis uk ac nsfnet relay \( last resort \) phx cam ac uk pgp 2 2 public key available request
mathew mathew mantis co uk subject political atheists \? organization mantis consultants , cambridge uk x newsreader rusnews v1 01 lines 11 mccullou snake2 cs wisc edu \( mark mccullough \) writes think mean circular , recursive , semantics problems , horribly inefficient \( ask assembly programmer \) tail recursive functions scheme least efficient loops anyone n't program assembler heard optimizing compilers mathew
mandtbacka finabo abo fi \( mats andtbacka \) subject anecdote islam reply jaeger buphy bu edu 's message 5 apr 93 16 49 14 gmt organization unorganized usenet postings uninc x news reader vms news 1 24 lines 24 bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu writes deletia n't understand point petty sarcasm basic principle islam one born muslim one says testify god god mohammad prophet god , long one explicitly reject islam word one must considered muslim muslims phenomenon 're attempting make general rule psychology direct odds basic islamic principles want attack islam could better argue something islam explicitly contradicts deletions somewhere , mentioned something chopping hands punishment theft saudi arabia assuming \( would n't know \) , assuming done people fitting requirement muslim \( find highly likely \) , would please try convince bobby mozumder muslims chop people 's hands \? come back 've succeeded disclaimer \? 's great young insane !
lucio proxima alt za \( lucio de \) subject fundamental contradiction \( visit \) reply lucio proxima alt za organization megabyte digital telecommunications lines 35 jbrown batman bmd trw com writes self determination words , god created conscious beings ability choose moral choices independently god , therefore , free probably representative paragraph , thought 'd hop , anyway strikes self contradicting lucifer 's fall , way , seem recall speculation based biblical text , ex may showing , benedikt pointed , lucifer perfect nature , yet free choose evil choice come \? know genesis eve offered opportunity sin many assume satan , lucifer discover , invent , create , call action , something god given origin \? also , bible mention lucifer 's free \? make big fuss mankind free , strikes fact rationalisation , fact , like salvation , one christians believe identically least mind , salvation free tightly coupled , theology roman catholic still , theologian explain lucifer 's fall \? lucifer perfect nature \( man \? \) could fall \? could execute act \( \) contradicted nature \( b \) effect cause evil exist first time \? lucio de \( lucio proxima alt za \) tab stops four
lucio proxima alt za \( lucio de \) subject atheist \? reply lucio proxima alt za organization megabyte digital telecommunications lines 33 tony lezard tony mantis co uk writes opinion strong atheist position requires much belief comfortable strong atheists care comment \? far tell , strong atheists far alt atheism weak atheists cost faq , think much made strong vs weak atheism issue , although context alt atheism , 're continually attacked basis strong atheists believe non existence god , think separation valid one cover arse , i'm trying say infinitely grey area weak strong , well strong mathematical atheism \( wish ! \) whereas logically support weak atheist position , effect strong atheist \( wish could mathematical one \) justify strong atheist position believe need show evidence presented favour gods scrutiny faulty read faq correctly , argument existence god \( generic , represented mainstream theologians \) ever found adequate evidence real god undefinable \( least definition yet found \) , turn accept sufficient base disbelief every conceivable god i'm little fuzzy edges , though , opinions welcome \( perhaps change thread subject \) lucio de \( lucio proxima alt za \) tab stops four
mathew mathew mantis co uk subject inimitable rushdie \( anecdote islam organization mantis consultants , cambridge uk x newsreader rusnews v1 01 lines 32 jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) writes would rushdie case particularly legitimate \? 've said elsewhere issue , rushdie 's actions effects islamic countries simple say n't commit crime islamic country actually , simple person p committed crime c country x p within borders x time c committed n't matter physical manifestation c outside x instance , hack nasa 's ames research lab delete files , committed crime united kingdom us authorities wish prosecute us law rather uk law , automatic right net authorities us tried put pressure sites holland holland anti cracking legislation , viewed hacker us system administrators similarly , company called red hot television broadcasting pornographic material received britain broadcasting britain , would committing crime , broadcasting denmark , british government powerless anything , spite apparent law breaking course , i'm lawyer , could wrong , could right countries others mathew
i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) subject anecdote islam organization technical university braunschweig , germany lines 74 article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) writes cases prostitution man prostitute would punished public , quite severely \( deletion \) gregg , cannot say lenient severely public unless , course , one exceptions implied almost matters depends statistics punished public power \( example , nothing islamic \) allows men rape women five times blowing rapist 's head public 'd call leniency , would n't \? given example lenient end argument chopping hands heads people lenient either rather appears claims legal system without checking suit description n't argument takes five men rape woman according islamic law \? n't approve , think prostitute customer right words , punishing violation rights punish severely public another pointer connected sexuality many religions believe like , even believe n't like give better answers \? got evidence probably opposite claims \? case , n't see accept complex ridden views oriental ah , yes , forget west historically much without sexual \) oriental , really intellectual fact , memory serves see connection primitive machism orient islam people agree sex fine would assume god would clue detrimental effects huh \? ever heard aids \? \( course 'll probably go say god must evil allows disease exist , bla bla \) usually miss point aids neither spread sex necessarily spread sex , point , important point , urge sex stronger fear aids even stronger religious attempts channel forbid sex consequences suppressing sex worse consequences aids please note idea everybody would end aids sex controlled completely since brought point , god evil \? benedikt
i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) subject biblical rape organization technical university braunschweig , germany lines 14 article watson ibm com strom watson ibm com \( rob strom \) writes article i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de , i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) writes n't time read rest posting , respond absolutely messianic jew another mistake sorry , read alt , messianic carefully benedikt
perry dsinc com \( jim perry \) subject soc motss , et al princeton axes matching funds boy scouts article dsi distribution usa organization decision support inc lines 28 nntp posting host dsi dsinc com article 1993apr3 midway uchicago edu shou midway uchicago edu writes article dsi dsinc com perry dsinc com \( jim perry \) writes bigots never concede bigotry irrational people determine examining arguments ! expected ! 've set wonderful little world bigot whomever say comfortable imagine , never entertain argument belief system simply accuse person making bigot well , particular thread venom alt atheism , spend time entertaining arguments belief system , without resorting accusing others bigotry 's somewhat ironic exposure bigotry happens instance originated rec scouting , since always understood scouting teach tolerance diversity understand bigotry irrational prejudice people happen different race , religion , ethnic background , sex , inconsequential characteristics evidence 've seen indicates sexual orientation lack belief gods exactly inconsequential characteristics thus , pending evidence , conclude show prejudice people bigots , organizations exclude people discriminatory jim perry perry dsinc com decision support , inc , matthews nc opinions nominal fee ,
i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) subject americans evolution organization technical university braunschweig , germany lines 67 article senator bedfellow mit edu bobs thnext mit edu \( robert singleton \) writes \( deletion \) argue latter statement , believe gods exist rest upon faith , making positive statement gods exist \( strong atheism \) rather merely saying n't know therefore n't believe n't believe \( weak atheism \) , believe god different saying believe god exist still maintain position , even reading faqs , strong atheism requires faith way usually used view , saying driving car requires faith car drives conclusion , faith premises argument used first let say following might language problem regards faith existence , christian , maintain god exist exist means space time god god kierkegaard said god exist , eternal said , feel 's rather pointless debate called existence god i'm believe god source ground say god exist , also accept statement obviously mean two different things however , follows use phrase existence god 's sense think using would like clarification upon mean existence god , 's word game term god used different way usually use different definition thing , commonly accepted would say way define god exist , existence , say exist interestingly , say existence exists one statements possible , saying god existence either waste time , existence already used need replace god , implying , case definition argument far incomplete , making fallacy \( deletion \) one never prove god exist say believe god exist , opinion based upon observation , ask refering \? observations pro con valid establishing positive belief \( deletion \) follow \? n't observations based assumption something exists \? would n't say level definition assumption god meaningful , would reject concept anyway , evidence god meaningful level \? benedikt
perry dsinc com \( jim perry \) subject morality constant \( biblical rape \) organization decision support inc lines 51 nntp posting host dsi dsinc com \( \) thread turned patented alt atheism 5 1 ping pong game , n't strong disagreement , 'll try stick one thing n't quite follow argument seems contradiction arguing bible enlightened times \( e closer would consider morally good based standards past experience \) one hand hope summarizes argument adequately , hand article 1993apr03 watson ibm com strom watson ibm com \( rob strom \) writes article dsi dsinc com , perry dsinc com \( jim perry \) writes disclaimer i'm speaking jewish perspective , bible means many call old testament , interpretation necessarily raw text , instead court cases , commentaries traditions passed jewish communities seems crux judge bible according long line traditions interpretations coming current day , rather merits cultural , course correspond closely contemporary values 's bible actually used today , n't judge \? people use scissors cut paper , n't consumer 's reports test scissors paper cutting ability , even though scissors may designed originally cut cloth \? 's possibly good way judge use bible teaching jewish morality today , hardly seems fair claim highly interpreted version enlightened times \( attempt \) extend analogy , like saying original makers unusually advanced paper cutting times , even though ever cut cloth , never even heard paper i'm arguing bible disgusting , though history , modern standards however , history full similar abuses , n't think biblical accounts worse contemporaries possibly hand , n't know reason think history described bible shows less abuse contemporaries , complex benign moral traditions evolved based particular mythic interpretations history interesting , still n't think fair take long tradition interpretation use attack condemnation original history jim perry perry dsinc com decision support , inc , matthews nc opinions nominal fee ,
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject political atheists \? organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 13 nntp posting host punisher caltech edu mathew mathew mantis co uk writes rape , surely burden guilt solely rapist \? unless force someone live rapist , case part responsibility i'm sorry , ca n't accept unless rapist something , view solely responsible actions necessarily , especially rapist known instance , intentionally stick finger loaded get snapped , whose fault \? keith
simon dcs warwick ac uk \( simon clippingdale \) subject islamic authority women nntp posting host nin organization department computer science , warwick university , england lines 49 article 1993apr5 ultb isc rit edu snm6394 ultb isc rit edu \( n mozumder \) writes one thing relates among navy men get tatoos say mom , love mom makes virile men compare homos raised study get point oh , bobby 're ever tell \? policy bobby 's posts , anyone give damn , flick thread high speed , searching posts bobby 's generated whole pile followups , go extract hilarious quote inevitably present sig purposes works guy said 's arrived , asked whether bobby 's real , welcome alt atheism , rest assured gets worse pearls wisdom bobby reproduce anyone \( keith \? \) keeping big file stuff \? allah 's infinite wisdom , universe created nothing , saying , became therefore allah exists bobby mozumder proving existence allah , 1 wait said humans rarely reasonable n't contradict atheism , everything explained logic reason \? contradiction atheism proves false bobby mozumder proving existence allah , 2 plus , believer , would contradictory quran allah exist bobby mozumder proving existence allah , 3 one thing relates among navy men get tatoos say mom , love mom makes virile men compare homos raised study get point bobby mozumder islamically rigorous alt atheism quality quantity new voice islam \( \) cheers simon simon clippingdale simon dcs warwick ac uk department computer science tel \( 44 \) 203 523296 university warwick fax \( 44 \) 203 525714 coventry cv4 7al , u k
kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) subject soc motss , et al princeton axes matching funds boy scouts article po kmr4 organization case western reserve university lines 28 nntp posting host b64635 student cwru edu article 1993apr6 cbnewsl cb att com stank cbnewsl cb att com \( stan krieger \) writes point raised answered roger clearly stated support bsa position issue specifically , homosexual behavior constitutes violation scout oath \( specifically , promise live morally straight \) please define morally straight , n't even try saying straight , used , implies behavior eg straight slang word opposite gay alot like family values everyone talking , , one knows one thing relates among navy men get tatoos say mom , love mom makes virile men bobby mozumder \( snm6394 ultb isc rit edu \) april 4 , 1993 one true muslim left world
twpierce unix amherst edu \( tim pierce \) subject soc motss , et al princeton axes matching funds boy scouts article unix organization , consolidated \( amherst , offices \) lines 37 article 1993apr6 cbnewsl cb att com stank cbnewsl cb att com \( stan krieger \) writes roger clearly stated support bsa position issue specifically , homosexual behavior constitutes violation scout oath \( specifically , promise live morally straight \) really nothing else discuss apparently response claim gay people able children lifestyle \( words effect \) , sent roger calm , carefully written , detailed letter explaining simply bsa policy , indeed use inflammatory language left extremely open answer thus far , received answer conclude roger considers position either simply worth defending trying cloud issue comparisons blacks minorities also meaningless 's like comparing apples oranges \( e , people ca n't control race control behavior \) fact , 's exactly point people control behavior fact , need blanket ban homosexuals else possibly discuss rec scouting issue \? tell tim pierce \? es la de la tele , eh \? ! la twpierce unix amherst edu del ! ! ay , que ! \( bitnet twpierce amherst \) pedro
subject biblical rape i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) fido asd sgi com 1993mar29 watson ibm com i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de watson ibm com i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de 1993apr03 watson ibm com i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de 1993apr04 watson ibm com organization technical university braunschweig , germany lines 154 article 1993apr04 watson ibm com strom watson ibm com \( rob strom \) writes \( deletion \) thread biblical rape initiated david hunt posting article andrew cmu edu , david hunt bluelobster cmu edu writes i'm pretty sure 've seen biblical rules 's allowable rape prisoners , codes , etc could knowledgable soul please let know references \? asked narrow question , gave narrow answer yes , sorry got wrong apology \( deletion \) david hunt 's post n't mention god , response first bring idea bible given god jews n't believe literal sense \? fun , must met minority given god refers action whereby god god causes better effects something rob , intimate jewish theology , understand messianic jew correct wrong , appears views messianic jews metaphysics different majority jews jewish theology overall quite distinct god views , heard possible jews attribute evil god , christians , bible still seen effect interaction god man \( deletion \) thought agreed though jews disagree , set core beliefs agree upon , one commandments accessible written language time , another must legal system update context metaphysics , even process commandments , justification process lie wonder break metaphysics system \( deletion \) could explain respect original commandments discussed , commandment says feel like raping woman prisoner , instead wait marry \? way commandment given invalidates \? book commands commit genocide among reprehensible deeds context repulsive , foul play , imo , invoke relatively enlightened passages example content whole book \( big deletion \) point see necessary connection theology use interpretation bible loosely interpretation bible based long tradition jewish scholars interpreting bible theology n't really enter jewish atheists interpret laws charity essentially way , interpretation laws , interpretation bible example sodom mean argue god whole idea metaphorically yet allows argue god \( whatever means , alone theo logic question \) proof theology used pose another metaphysical riddle ! , well , wrote fine major spirit neither absolute power absolute knowledge , appears , limited means communicate us form spiritual big friend admit using god context somewhat unusual \? right assumption cannot created universe well \? passages bible referring omnipotence crap \? 's meant riddle important question light instance passage sodom means either connection text , fact exists , interpretation , purely arbitrary , question one carry burden biblical texts one could simply write books convey message better might answer one ca n't becuase peculiar biblical information might lost , holds true every book , question remains bible still special place \? ca n't replaced somehow \? ok bargain dangerous content bible message included well \? \( deletion \) see danger \? especially used bible \? think danger less either danger frozen system laws , laws sorry , worse systems say anything one could better system \( deletion \) read two stories importance helping poor , one god spirit , god body , important , helping poor , resolving contradiction nature god \? read two stories bible , one god commands people kill children idolaters another god kills children directly , important resolve , message children killed done god \? argument given fallacy , may important context given find god , crucial questions religious believers resolve contradictions choose one possibilities given arbitrary way , advantage able attribute decision god one cannot resolve questions statement good good depends question benedikt
i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) subject atheist \? organization technical university braunschweig , germany lines 38 article mantis co uk tony lezard tony mantis co uk writes \( deletion \) words , gods , would hardly make sense , possible explain phenomenon religion without gods concept useless , n't introduce new assumptions order show yes fully agree , n't believe gods exist , believe gods exist \? mandtbacka finabo abo fi \( mats andtbacka \) pointed , hinges take word believe mean , believe gods exist n't believe gods exist words , think statements like gods somehow interfere world false meaningless , one fairly conclude exist meaningless exist pragmatic definition truth , exists meaningless makes exist even logically false problem statements one ca n't disprove subjective god definition , might cases subjective god would even make sense trouble god definitions include form objective existence consequence gods affecting believers derive right interfere life others \( deletion \) faq clarified try pin notion belief \? \? honestly , n't see problem benedikt
a137490 lehtori cc tut fi \( aario sami \) subject sex allowed marriage rationality \( islamic marriage \) \? organization tampere university technology , computing centre lines 26 distribution sfnet nntp posting host cc tut fi 1993mar31 ultb isc rit edu snm6394 ultb isc rit edu \( n mozumder \) writes case everything wrong world end people start believing islam horrors mankind caused lack belief atheism last time , bobby lack belief god imply atheism moslems n't moral mean n't believe god named allah , although allah may things allah moslem says believes god exists , theist \( though maybe true follower islam \) 30 , 000 murder victims year caused atheism poverty massive hate crimes low respect human body distrust among people everything wrong , caused atheism peace , jerk bobby mozumder sami aario see measure atom \? yet explode a137490 cc tut fi one sunlight comprised many atoms ' stupid minds ! stupid , stupid ! eros plan 9 outer space disclaimer n't agree eros
mangoe cs umd edu \( charley wingate \) subject motto mania lines 33 mathew writes prefer mark jason 's suggestion motto changed mind fucking business era aids , n't someone 's fucking everyone 's interest \? \( semi \) \) propose motto recently glorious state maryland \( state whose state song refers abraham lincoln tyrant \) , people gotten wound state motto \( inherited \) , parole , read italian , says , manly deeds , words something effect state long ago four women seven representatives , represents problem official solution change translation , means strong deeds , gentle words personal suggestion changing walk softly carry big stick c wingate peace god , peace , strife closed sod mangoe cs umd edu yet , brothers , pray one thing tove ! mangoe marv'lous peace god
mangoe cs umd edu \( charley wingate \) subject visit jehovah 's witnesses \( good grief ! \) lines 7 amount energy spent one lousy syllogism says volumes true position reason group c wingate peace god , peace , strife closed sod mangoe cs umd edu yet , brothers , pray one thing tove ! mangoe marv'lous peace god
mangoe cs umd edu \( charley wingate \) subject metaphysics lines 24 benedikt rosenau writes , great authority contradictory cannot exist contradictory property language correct things defined contradictory language exist object definitions reality amend things described contradictory language exist 've come something plainly false failures description merely failures description \( i'm objectivist , remember \) c wingate peace god , peace , strife closed sod mangoe cs umd edu yet , brothers , pray one thing tove ! mangoe marv'lous peace god
mangoe cs umd edu \( charley wingate \) subject gospel dating lines 48 , require amount evidence believe \) pair b \) superhuman powers \? well , could use argument use nature claim cannot superhuman powers human superhuman powers beyond human , since human , powers beyond human hence , cannot superhuman powers sound good \? anyway , evidence question depends context group , since posting american college site , i'm willing take given pair blue jeans , assuming position , take given superhuman powers arguments evidence , respects say existence sic jesus , assume mean man , without special powers , etc yep many agree possible man called jesus fact live fact , willing agree man named jesus reason believe n't ever man good however , claims eg virgin birth virgin sense sexual intercourse , resurection , son god , etc claims require extra evidence extra evidence \? n't start evidence \? cannot see evidence v b group would ever accept second , foundation religion anyone claims seen risen jesus \( back 40 day period \) believer , therefore discounted group since ancients anyway , one choose dismiss whole thing third much metaphysical relationship anything else even agree argued length means , n't see evidence possible thus interpret extraordinary claims claim statement speaker accept evidence matter c wingate peace god , peace , strife closed sod mangoe cs umd edu yet , brothers , pray one thing tove ! mangoe marv'lous peace god
mangoe cs umd edu \( charley wingate \) subject remarkable admission lines 19 jon livesey writes i'm certainly going attempt distinguish different flavours christian , loudly claiming one true christian well , 's obvious n't attempt , otherwise would aware n't loudly claim one true christian 've tried avoid using phrase christian ownership issues instead , 've tried phrase nicene christianity attempt identify vast majority christianity roughly similar viewpoints core theological issues fall within group fact espouse position known , rejected nicene churches virtually everyone else well c wingate peace god , peace , strife closed sod mangoe cs umd edu yet , brothers , pray one thing tove ! mangoe marv'lous peace god
mangoe cs umd edu \( charley wingate \) subject gospel dating lines 73 benedikt rosenau writes argument goes follows q quotes appear john , almost codified way matthew luke however , considered similar enough point knowledge q , entirely different source assuming presenting accurately , n't see argument really leads firm conclusion material john \( i'm sure exactly referred , 'll take granted similarity matt luke q material \) different hence , one could almost relationship two , right john getting straight jesus' mouth talking date texts , age authors usual explanation time order mark , matthew luke consider respective ages says matthew read text mark , luke matthew \( probably mark \) version usual theory heard matthew luke independently relying mark q one would think luke relied matthew , would n't grating inconsistencies , one thing assumed john knew content luke 's text evidence overwhelming , admittedly part particularly new possible could point reference , 'd grateful unfortunately , n't got info hand \( think \) late '70s early '80s , possibly old ce 200 200 , shed doubt order putting john rest three \? closes gap \( supposed \) writing existing copy quit bit away original , copies written , therefore survival becomes probable n't think one step removed source bad luke mark matthew learned stories directly , really cannot believe sort big transformation jesus gospel people posit news reports , one generally gets better information john , 's nothing said john disciple generally accepted style language together theology usually used i'm really impressed theology argument i'm really pointing pointed earlier , one cannot make arguments peter see reason accept authentic letter one step one generation removed bad even times compare reports similar events century almost illiterate societies best analogy would reporters talking participants , bad words , one know original mark look like arguments based mark pretty weak statement divinity section , case , 's agreed important epistles mark c wingate peace god , peace , strife closed sod mangoe cs umd edu yet , brothers , pray one thing tove ! mangoe marv'lous peace god
mangoe cs umd edu \( charley wingate \) subject yeah , right lines 30 benedikt rosenau writes revelation thing , charley \? 're talking intellectual engagement revelation , well , 's obviously risk one takes many people say concept metaphysical religious knowledge i'm objectivist , i'm particularly impressed problems problem case least bad trying explain quantum mechanics relativity terms ordinary experience one get rough understanding , language , perspective ordinary phenomena , inconsistent , perspective 's described , rather \( charitable \) analogous situation \( supposedly \) obtains metaphysics problem better descriptive language available case holds reliable information , show establish \? word reliable essentially meaningless context unless show reliability determined c wingate peace god , peace , strife closed sod mangoe cs umd edu yet , brothers , pray one thing tove ! mangoe marv'lous peace god
org \( gene c miller \) subject radical agnostic ! organization org lines 37 article 1993apr6 cnsvax uwec edu , nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \( david nye \) wrote reply austin ibm com \( e h \) means possibly think prove beyond doubt god exist \( anyone one , means , tell \) therefore , lacking ability absolute proof , atheist becomes act faith , cannot accept accept nothing blind faith invisible pink flying unicorns ! need say \? harbor beliefs , good evidence god existing folks call agnosticism suffer blind faith think n't worry , happy many atheists , lack belief gods secondary consideration accept reliable way knowing \? known valid logical arguments existence gods , empirical evidence exist philosophers theologians agree idea god one must accepted faith faith belief without sound logical basis empirical evidence reliable way knowing \? could expand definition knowing \? seems bit monolithic , i'm sure intend n't need , example , distinguish knowing 2 plus 2 equals 4 \( 2 apples plus 2 apples equals 4 apples \) , french knowing jerry lewis , means say know socrates said \? patently absurd whoever wishes become philosopher must learn frightened absurdities bertrand russell like epigraph perhaps issue learning , , absurdities merit exploration gene
uunet ! olivea ! sgigate ! sgiblab ! panasonic com ! nntp server caltech edu ! keith subject political atheists \? keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) organization california institute technology , pasadena nntp posting host punisher caltech edu lines 15 bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) writes personal objection find capital punishment cruel unusual punishment circumstances painless , n't cruel , occurred frequently since dawn time , hardly unusual n't take issue numbers single innocent life taken one many , innocents die due many causes singled accidental false execution one take issue \? keith
perry dsinc com \( jim perry \) subject yeah , right organization decision support inc lines 27 nntp posting host dsi dsinc com article mimsy umd edu mangoe cs umd edu \( charley wingate \) writes several years 've periodically asked charley wingate explain mythical alternative rationality enthusiastically pops every months reluctance explain indicates 's hot 've said enough times alternative think might caught alternative , point , rationality n't alternative either problems metaphysical religious knowledge say , humans cannot solve truly alternative , basis whatsoever claim usual line , call atheism , dispute , reason admit alternative , possible basis claim anything reason reason inapplicable religious knowledge , except possibly reason conflicts religious knowledge sounds much like ca n't provide rational defense belief , prefer discard rationality rather accept may false hope makes happy , repeated unfounded assertions effect n't advance cause jim perry perry dsinc com decision support , inc , matthews nc opinions nominal fee ,
ingles engin umich edu \( ray ingles \) subject yeah , right organization university michigan engineering , ann arbor lines 49 distribution world nntp posting host engin umich edu article mimsy umd edu mangoe cs umd edu \( charley wingate \) writes benedikt rosenau writes revelation thing , charley \? 're talking intellectual engagement revelation , well , 's obviously risk one takes ah , core question let suggest scenario grant god exists , uses revelation communicate humans \( said revelation taking form \( paraphrased words \) infinitely powerful deity grabs poor , makes take , hides away hundred years' \) , exists human personally experienced revelation person observes revelations seem contain elements contradict rather strongly aspects observed world \( person ever seen \) , many mutually contradictory claims revelation , based , person blamed concluding , absent personal revelation , almost certainly nothing thing \? i'm objectivist , i'm particularly impressed problems problem case least bad trying explain quantum mechanics relativity terms ordinary experience one get rough understanding , language , perspective ordinary phenomena , inconsistent , perspective 's described , rather \( charitable \) analogous situation \( supposedly \) obtains metaphysics problem better descriptive language available absent better language , absent observations support claims revelation , one blamed doubting whole thing \? driving thought long time come honest conclusion deity , nothing like ones proposed religion familiar , happen , say , christian god , held accountable honest mistake \? sincerely , ray ingles ingles engin umich edu meek earth rest us going stars ! robert heinlein
darice yoyo cc monash edu au \( fred rice \) subject ancient islamic rituals organization monash university , melb , australia lines 72 lynx unm edu cfaehl vesta unm edu \( chris faehl \) writes article 1993apr3 081052 11292 monu6 cc monash edu au , darice yoyo cc monash edu au \( fred rice \) writes deleted , get point therefore , nutshell , opinion pre marital sex makes likelihood extra marital sex probable furthermore , opinion , extra marital sex helps break leads greater divorce rates turn , opinion , creates trauma less stable environment children , , opinion , likely grow psychological problems depression , etc thus , sex outside marriage , long run , harmful society think drawing links none sex marriage nothing adultery committed marriage issue see committed pain spouse , confident addition , someone within marriage business , mine , witnessed strong relationships incorporate extra marital sex would agree assertion children children witness confusing relationships adultery adults , assume general , expect children understand \? evidence opinions \? moment , generalities cite example , read 20th century , percentage youth \( people general \) suffer depression steadily climbing western societies \( probably reading referred particularly usa \) similarly , one detect trend towards greater occurrence sex outside marriage century western societies particularly sexual revolution 60 's , even think \( otherwise sexual revolution 60 's would possible \) , particularly gradual weakening christianity consequently christian moral teachings sex outside marriage propose two trends greater level general depression society \( psychological problems \) greater sexual promiscuity linked , latter prime cause former cannot provide evidence beyond stage , whole thesis seems reasonable request people ponder upon reasonable trend towards obesity trend towards depression \? ca n't pick two favorite trends , notice correlation , make sweeping statement generality mean , , people , mean valid reasonable thesis best 's gross oversimplification push pull factors people experience argument mainly proposal think plausible argument extra marital sex one personally believe truth main purpose posting show plausible argument made extra marital sex stage saying particular viewpoint proven anything like , plausible try convince particular point view , would probably lot work researching done field , etc , order gather evidence , simply time also note said think extra marital sex prime cause \( opinion \) generally greater levels psychological problems , especially depression , western societies saying prime cause cause , prime cause e one significant contributions trend think say think view simplistic , forgotten admit probably factors , think extra marital sex \( , imo , subsequent destabilization family \) significant factor rise psychological problems like depression western society century fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au
darice yoyo cc monash edu au \( fred rice \) subject ancient islamic rituals organization monash university , melb , australia lines 29 ednclark kraken ednclark kraken itc gu edu au \( jeffrey clark \) writes cfaehl vesta unm edu \( chris faehl \) writes reasonable trend towards obesity trend towards depression \? ca n't pick two favorite trends , notice correlation , make sweeping statement generality mean , , people , mean valid reasonable thesis best 's gross oversimplification push pull factors people experience basically social interactions changing factors society far complicated us control hold panic handles hope heading soft landing one things sure , depression destruction nuclear family due solely sex marriage note never said depression destruction nuclear family due solely extra marital sex specifically said prime cause , prime cause cause recognize probably factors , think extra marital sex subsequent destabilization family probably significant factor rise psychological problems , including depression , west 20th century fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au
darice yoyo cc monash edu au \( fred rice \) subject sex allowed marriage rationality \( islamic marriage \) \? organization monash university , melb , australia lines 115 1993apr4 proxima alt za lucio proxima alt za \( lucio de \) writes darice yoyo cc monash edu au \( fred rice \) writes point view argument sexism bad simply hold let give example permitting woman temporarily leave job due pregnancy allowed \? happens sexist , gives particular right women nevertheless , despite fact sexist , completely support law , think fred , 're sexism , like , form discrimination , using obvious physical cultural differences deny one portion population rights another context , example holds water whatsoever 's discrimination denying men maternity leave , fact i'm quite convinced , anyone experiment male pregnancy , would possible future father take leave medical grounds okay argued thoroughly 3 4 weeks ago men women different physically , , psychologically much recent evidence statement present book anne david recommend find copy read book overview recent scientific research topic well referenced , women men different ways , law adequately take account needs areas different also taking account ways men women different maternity leave example takes account women get pregnant give women rules would give men , treat women like treats men instance would unjust simply obvious example men women intrinsically different ! ! ! ! ! , people make naive argument sexism oppression however , maternity leave sexist men get pregnant men access leave women \( extent degree \) , therefore sexist matter however much man wants get pregnant maternity leave , never therefore law sexist man access maternity leave , matter hard tries get pregnant hope clear maternity leave example sexist law , sexism reflects sexism nature making men women different many differences men women far subtle pregnancy , find recommend look book point perhaps day men also pregnant fallacious men one day become pregnant biologically become women ! womb factors required pregnancy usually wrapped definition woman argument , examined , seen fallacious saying men sexist maternity leave privilege women also become women actually supports statement maternity leave sexist discrimination comes woman denied opportunities \( legally determined \) sexual understand religious sexual discrimination , doubt islam exceptional , female allowed priestly caste general aspirations rights , equal human , ought entitled official priesthood islam much function taken islamic scholars female islamic scholars female islamic scholars always existed islam example early islamic history prophet 's widow , , recognized time recognized time islamic scholar matter coat , part role religions seems , historically , served function oppressing female , whether forcing procreate extent opportunity self improvement , denying access facilities males offered evidence blanket statement religions , dispute could go women islam , etc , recently reposted something heading islam women still news site suggest read reposted soc religion islam , disappeared alt atheism still might soc religion islam \( forgot original title though \) email like roman catholic church blatant culprit , actually celibate clergy , religious different let woman attempt escape role child bearer wrath god descends statement religions different , think , statement based simply lack knowledge religions christianity perhaps judaism 'll accept affirmation islam grants women rights men show muslim woman aspire position \( say \) khomeini artificial religious social obstacles path achieve , mentioned earlier , islamic scholar also , one stage , military leader show equivalent hillary clinton within islam , may consider discussing issue prophet 's first wife , died \( prophet 's journey mecca medina \) successful lucio , cannot make strong case viewpoint viewpoint based ignorance world religions fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au
darice yoyo cc monash edu au \( fred rice \) subject ancient islamic rituals organization monash university , melb , australia lines 21 i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) writes article 1993apr3 081052 11292 monu6 cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au \( fred rice \) writes discussion pros cons sex outside marriage personally think part value lasting men women helps provide stable secure environment children grow \( deletion \) addition chris faehl 's post , homosexuals \? well , islamic viewpoint , homosexuality norm society cannot really say much islamic viewpoint homosexuality something done much research fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au
ingles engin umich edu \( ray ingles \) subject metaphysics organization university michigan engineering , ann arbor lines 45 distribution world nntp posting host engin umich edu article mimsy umd edu mangoe cs umd edu \( charley wingate \) writes benedikt rosenau writes , great authority contradictory cannot exist contradictory property language correct things defined contradictory language exist object definitions reality amend things described contradictory language exist 've come something plainly false failures description merely failures description description object , one time , euclidean square euclidean circle \? hold object satisfying description could exist description inconsistent , hence describes object could exist , suppose someone pointed bicycle , said , object , one time , euclidean square euclidean circle mean bicycle exist , description incorrectly applied atheist says , descriptions god presented contradictory , hence describe something cannot exist , position \( far gather \) god exists , descriptions atheists presented simply bad descriptions roughly analogous someone never seen bicycle , , ask description people claim seen one , told euclidean circle square blamed doubting rather strongly exists \? \( i'm objectivist , remember \) kidding sincerely , ray ingles ingles engin umich edu meek earth rest us going stars ! robert heinlein
subject islamic authority women kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) organization case western reserve university nntp posting host b64635 student cwru edu lines 29 article 1993apr6 dcs warwick ac uk simon dcs warwick ac uk \( simon clippingdale \) writes guy said 's arrived , asked whether bobby 's real , welcome alt atheism , rest assured gets worse pearls wisdom bobby reproduce anyone \( keith \? \) keeping big file stuff \? sorry , , somehow misplaced diskette last couple months however , thanks efforts bobby , rather quickly ! recent favorite satan angels freewill god tells n mozumder \( snm6394 ultb isc rit edu \) satan angels freewill god tells n mozumder \( snm6394 ultb isc rit edu \)
subject visit jehovah 's witnesses \( good grief ! \) kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) organization case western reserve university nntp posting host b64635 student cwru edu lines 14 article mimsy umd edu mangoe cs umd edu \( charley wingate \) writes amount energy spent one lousy syllogism says volumes true position reason group agree , spend much energy god satan angels freewill god tells n mozumder \( snm6394 ultb isc rit edu \)
ingles engin umich edu \( ray ingles \) subject homosexuality \( princeton etc \) article srvr1 distribution world organization university michigan engineering , ann arbor lines 51 nntp posting host engin umich edu sorry , bill , clear may good evolutionary arguments homosexuality , n't qualify article darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) writes c wainwright \( eczcaw mips nott ac uk \) wrote deletions would seem odd homosexuality evolutionary function deletions every time man sex woman intend produce children \? hmm wonder world obviously keep monty python song every sperm sacred , say , purpose means limit population growth , arguement , natural consider context , i'm talking evolutionary function one basic requirements evolution members species procreate , n't purpose context oh \? guess social insects \( e g ants , bees , etc \) one breeding queen whole sterile workers way , huh \? days ai n't true ! people decide whether children soon able choose 's sex c \( 's another arguement \) 's lifestyle decision arguement , since homosexuals \( choose \) reproduce must akin people decide sex children unnatural yet another non sequitur sex evolutionary function exists procreation , also recreation incidental homosexuals n't procreate means sex recreation nothing serve evolutionary purpose refer , species primate related humans \( , closely \) sex time , homosexual well heterosexual group finds food , sex go sleep night , sex escape fight , sex sex serves important social function beyond reproduction species species closely related humans indication sex performs social function humans , well , even , shows function impossible sincerely , ray ingles ingles engin umich edu meek earth rest us going stars ! robert heinlein
subject vonnegut atheism dmn kepler unh edu \( kings become philosophers philosophers become kings \) organization utexas mail news gateway nntp posting host cs utexas edu lines 21 yesterday , got chance hear kurt vonnegut speak university new hampshire vonnegut succeeded isaac asimov \( honorary \? \) head american humanist association \( vonnegut atheist , asimov \) asimov 's funeral , vonnegut stood said asimov , 's heaven , ignited laughter room \( people speaking around time funeral \) 's funniest thing could possibly said room full , vonnegut said yesterday 's lecture vonnegut comes speak university , highly recommend going see even 've never read novels opinion , 's greatest living \( greatest living humanist well \) peace , dana
subject yet rushdie islamic law kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) organization case western reserve university nntp posting host b64635 student cwru edu lines 27 article 1993apr6 monu6 cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au \( fred rice \) writes clarify muslims usually mean say muslim general , anyone calls muslim profess something clear contradiction essential teachings islam considered muslim thus , one might things contrary islam \( ignorance , example \) suddenly become muslim one knowingly islamic teachings essential principles , though , one leave islam mr bobby really need sit decide exactly islam posting according , one muslim one evil evil according , one evil suffering temporary , would members claim muslims get stories straight \? \? \? \? satan angels freewill god tells n mozumder \( snm6394 ultb isc rit edu \)
subject request support kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) organization case western reserve university nntp posting host b64635 student cwru edu lines 16 article 1993apr5 sei cmu edu dpw sei cmu edu \( david wood \) writes 2 must respond one articles , include within something similar following please answer questions posed charley challenges agreed satan angels freewill god tells n mozumder \( snm6394 ultb isc rit edu \)
subject bill conner kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) organization case western reserve university nntp posting host b64635 student cwru edu lines 17 article mlr darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) writes could explain pertains \? position statement something typing practice \? using name , think relates anything 've said , bill could explain pertains \? position statement something typing practice \? satan angels freewill god tells n mozumder \( snm6394 ultb isc rit edu \)
mayne pipe cs fsu edu \( william mayne \) subject soc motss , et al princeton axes matching funds boy scouts organization florida state university computer science department reply mayne cs fsu edu lines 21 article cs ulowell edu cs ulowell edu \( joe \) writes anything , bsa taught , n't know , tolerance something met guy , thought gays , bsa taught could give much testimonial experience scout back 1960s issue n't gays , principles thanks well put testimonial stan krieger kind think discussion n't belong intolerance acceptable position scouting take notice bsa religious right , core values survived spite leadership scouts former scouts n't given seeing testimonial like reminds scouting still worth fighting note , must realize experience camp leader bsa may putting risk word could leak bsa gestapo bill mayne
bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) subject soc motss , et al princeton axes matching funds boy scouts nntp posting host okcforum osrhe edu organization okcforum unix users group x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 162 c wainwright \( eczcaw mips nott ac uk \) wrote jim , always thought homophobe word used act rallies , n't beleive real people used let 's see agree term 's definition homophobe one actively attacks homosexuals actually latent homosexual uses hostility conceal true orientation since everyone disapproves condemns homosexuality homophobe \( implication clear \) , must necessarily follow men latent homosexuals bisexual least crap crap crap crap crap definition type comes phobia irrational fear hence homophobe \( act meetings , word apparently general use perhaps n't bible \? thou prefer communicate thou \? \) irrational fear spider \? irrational fear wide open space \? understand english \? obviously someone phobia react best avoid possible either strike run away occur natural processes \? people definately homophobia either run away gay people cause \( \) violence n't said taking issue , remarks merely parenthetical mine add nothing useful would seem odd homosexuality evolutionary function \( limiting population growth \) since evolution occurs members one generation pass along subsequent generations homosexuality evolutionary take usage term , homophobe , sense seem intend , men really homosexual evolution species least , going nowhere every time man sex woman intend produce children \? hmm wonder world obviously keep monty python song every sperm sacred , say , purpose means limit population growth , arguement , natural consider context , i'm talking evolutionary function one basic requirements evolution members species procreate , n't purpose context another point offspring generation survive , participation parents necessary family must exist , since homosexuals reproduce , cannot constitute family since majority humankind part family , homosexuality evolutionary , contrary nature well true , arguements homosexuals would vanished years ago due non procreation also parent single parent families put babies cold , cos must , arguement , die argument , homosexuality genetically determined second point , prove idea context means talking evolution , preservation species , fundamental premise whole process gets worse since overwhelming majority people actually prefer heterosexual relationship , homosexuality social well homosexual biological imperative reproduce social imperative form participate fundamental social element , family wait , 's read expect least ten children , family growing days sex less procreation \( admittedly without would one \) pleasure pre pill pre condom days , sex chance producing children days ai n't true ! people decide whether children soon able choose 's sex c \( 's another arguement \) 's lifestyle decision arguement , since homosexuals \( choose \) reproduce must akin people decide sex children unnatural yet another non sequitur sex evolutionary function exists procreation , also recreation incidental homosexuals n't procreate means sex recreation nothing serve evolutionary purpose since homosexuals come closet convinced policy makers civil rights , claiming sexuality preference , life style , orientation , choice protected law homosexuality mere choice contrary nature anti social , perverse choice even less credibility became prominent people people people tell anyone else live life \? god \( tm \) \? , fancy date \? 's pretty obvious dodge , really think 've said anything feel obligated respond every statement \? telling anyone anything , demonstrating arguments practice homosexuality \( providing 's merely alternate \) homophobic , one reasonably call perverse context even atheist understand realize course comes dangerously close establishing value , atheists compelled object basis , consistent , case regard characterize opposition homosexuality homophobic ignore compelling arguments homosexual life style since charge intended intimidate , 's really taken seriously fact , jim , far persuasive arguments suppressing homosexuality given , consider start crap arguments based outdated ideals likewise bible would honest christian condemn ten generations spawned bastard eternal damnation \? someone crushes penis \( either accidently ! \) deuteronomy i'm sure comment pertains something , 've disguised well ca n't see mention ideals , dated otherwise \? arguments reactionary anything contribute \? homosexuals excluded participation scouting , reasons used restrict teaching logic , homosexuals , social biological since adult role model child , incumbent parent ensure child isolated would child harm case , harm means primarily social , though could extended easily enough show anyone sex way everyone would describe normal , take hat \( baseball cap \) one man 's meat another man 's poison ! got anything \? would pick single point find offensive explain objections , would really like believe discuss issue bill
subject fluids vs liquids mikec sail labs tek com \( micheal cranford \) organization tektronix , inc , beaverton , lines 18 west wam umd edu \( brian west \) writes deleted similar analogy made glass n't know , glass liquid \( go ask science teacher \) flow deleted science teacher tells glass liquid , try get different science teacher b \) glass fluid , liquid \( except high temperatures \) definition liquid includes readily takes form container let 's try accurate n't want people think 're creationists \? uucp uunet ! tektronix ! sail ! mikec cranford uunet ! tektronix ! sail labs tek com ! mikec principal troll arpa mikec sail labs tek com relay cs net resident skeptic mikec sail labs tek com , tektronix
subject gospel dating kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) organization case western reserve university nntp posting host b64635 student cwru edu lines 64 article darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) writes keith ryan \( kmr4 po cwru edu \) wrote wild claims require greater evidence state one books room blue , certainly need much evidence believe claim two headed bed n't mean male lover ! keith , issue , truth consequences whatever proposition argued irrelevent issue , consequences true , truth irrelevent \? disagree every proposition needs certain amount evidence support , one believe factors individual different , quite obviously require different levels evidence one pointed , one 's history important , one may believe comrade states owns five pairs blue jeans one would need evidence , one lived united states time statement would raise us , individual always wear business suits , etc degree effect upon world , strength claim also determine amount evidence necessary determining level evidence one needs , certainly relevent consequences proposition consequences proposition , please explain one would accept electro magnetic force attraction two charged particles inversely proportional cube distance apart remember , consequences law relevent , use experimental evidence disproof one consequences law law state affairs , law natural law , irrelevent theorizing truth law given consequences proposition , including consequence self contradiction contradiction state , ever able judge true let alone find truth \? way , truth \? please define inserting conversation please explain truth truth think anything ever known certain even truth , could never possibly know find concept meaningless satan angels freewill god tells n mozumder \( snm6394 ultb isc rit edu \)
subject morality constant \( biblical rape \) kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) organization case western reserve university nntp posting host b64635 student cwru edu lines 28 article darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) writes couple things post others thread little confusing atheist one things understood processes nature exclusively need recourse describe explain anything purpose direction event beyond required physics , chemistry , biology , etc everything random , nothing posts contains many fallacies respond 1 \) divinity requires elimination freewill shown even attempted however , existance omniscience eliminate freewill mortals posted five months ago one able refute , give reasonable reasons satan angels freewill god tells n mozumder \( snm6394 ultb isc rit edu \)
howland reston ans net ! europa eng gtefsd com ! uunet ! mcsun ! germany eu net ! news de ! ! dbstu1 rz tu bs de ! i3150101 subject gospel dating i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) organization technical university braunschweig , germany lines 35 article mimsy umd edu mangoe cs umd edu \( charley wingate \) writes \( deletion \) cannot see evidence v b group would ever accept second , foundation religion anyone claims seen risen jesus \( back 40 day period \) believer , therefore discounted group since ancients anyway , one choose dismiss whole thing third much metaphysical relationship anything else even agree argued length means , n't see evidence possible cookies , charlie claims jesus seen discredited extraordinary claims n't match evidence case , one gospels cannot even agree jesus seen , zillions spook stories , one would hardly consider others even religious context evidence resurrection elaborate arguments made , looks passed post filtering thus interpret extraordinary claims claim statement speaker accept evidence matter evidence strict meaning actual evidence would probably part , says nothing claims charlie , seen invisible pink unicorns ! standards evidence benedikt
subject contradictions kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) organization case western reserve university nntp posting host b64635 student cwru edu lines 49 article austin ibm com austin ibm com \( stuart r \) writes would universe \? theists cannot understand inside universe outside universe two different places put god outside universe subtract ability interact inside universe , put inside universe impose rules physics 1 god outside universe 2 things outside universe 'the ability interact inside 3 therefore god cannot interact inside universe \( 2 \) basis whatsoever seem positive knowledge \( 2 \) \( 1 \) negation \( 2 \) would \( 1 \) although complete model physical rules governing inside universe , expect contradictory events likely destroy fabric modern physics hand , notion omnipotent , omniscient infinitely benevolent god , subject physical laws attempt explain away describing outside , beyond measurement , beyond measurement means measurable effect reality , cannot interact ergo , god irrelevant 1 god beyond measure 2 beyond measurement means measurable effect reality 3 therefore god cannot measurable effect reality \( 2 \) basis whatsoever \( 2 \) \( 1 \) negation \( 2 \) would contradict \( 1 \) satan angels freewill god tells n mozumder \( snm6394 ultb isc rit edu \)
i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) subject \( metaphysics \) organization technical university braunschweig , germany lines 46 article mimsy umd edu mangoe cs umd edu \( charley wingate \) writes contradictory cannot exist contradictory property language correct things defined contradictory language exist need correct , stands said object definitions reality amend things described contradictory language exist 've come something plainly false failures description merely failures description miss point entirely things defined contradictory language exist though something existing might meant , conclusions drawn description wrong , unless possibility find described , draw conclusions direct knowledge described another possibility drop contradictory part , implies one trust concept presented one got doubt source well \( i'm objectivist , remember \) neither either things directly sensed \( includes form modelling , way \) used modelling using something modelling approved wonder \? remain question something contradictory sensed contradictory important point either one manages resolve contradictions one forced use refer contradictory part drawing conclusions , one fall garbage garbage trap benedikt
perry dsinc com \( jim perry \) subject inimitable rushdie organization decision support inc lines 80 nntp posting host dsi dsinc com \( references deleted move new thread \) article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) writes article dsi dsinc com perry dsinc com \( jim perry \) writes rushdie , however , understand , muslim fact 's british citizen preclude muslim rushdie atheist \( use local terminology , put words mouth \) time writing tsv time fatwa february 1989 well , born muslim \( fairly certain \) muslim explicitly islam far know never explicitly islam , though may extreme doubt existence god muslim legal well intellectual issue , according islam put simply possible muslim accept charge apostacy , never adult life affirmed belief , one affirmed one said islam know states clearly coercion matters many muslims respect would horrified idea belong faith purely virtue birth , person freely chose muslim could therefore put death salman rushdie , good faith , 1990 god , satan , paradise , hell vanished one day fifteenth year , quite abruptly lost faith afterwards , prove new found atheism , bought rather ham sandwich , first time forbidden flesh arrived strike day thought wholly person salman rushdie , god trust , 1985 think rushdie affair discredited islam eyes khomeini know fanatics fringe elements religions , even apparently moderate muslims participated refused distance witch hunt rushdie yes , think true , 's motivations quite irrelevant issue fact matter rushdie made false statements \( fiction , know , line fact fiction \? \) life mohammad functional illiterate absolutely conception nature novel could think thing 'll accept \( reluctantly \) mobs pakistan , presented fictional dream demented character cannot wildest stretch imagination considered reflection actual mohammad 's worse , novel n't present mohammed character worse light secular histories islam particular , misrepresentation life wives people rush defense 's considered absolute fool writings satanic verses n't hold back 's considered apostate however , 's writing satanic verses , people accepted version contained book yet find one single muslim convinced read book initially claimed done , none shown knowledge book superficial newsweek story might , made factual misstatements events book wish understand reasons behind well origin concept satanic verses see penguin paperback rafiq called mohammad quran 'll keep eye counter proposal suggest see viking hardcover salman rushdie called satanic verses perhaps 'll understand jim perry perry dsinc com decision support , inc , matthews nc opinions nominal fee ,
bcash crchh410 nosubdomain nodomain \( brian cash \) subject visit jehovah 's witnesses nntp posting host crchh410 organization bnr , inc lines 51 article 1993apr2 803 batman bmd trw com , jbrown batman bmd trw com writes article hq ileaf com , hq ileaf com \( prasad \) writes article 1993apr1 794 batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes article matt ksu ksu edu , matt ksu ksu edu \( steve davis \) writes bskendig netcom com \( brian kendig \) writes earth evil satan rules new one guess 's since witness bothered implying satan omniscient \? might try saying satan 'all use statement show beliefs self , satan omniscient , hold dominion earth according christian theology \( note , confused jw 's theology \) standard created satan , \? orthodox christian theology states god created lucifer \( satan \) along angels , presumably wanted beings celebrate \( glorify \) existence life \( thereby , god \) along actually god 's motivations creating angels big issue within christian theology god created lucifer perfect nature gave along angels free moral lucifer high angel \( perhaps highest \) great authority seems greatness caused begin take pride desire equal greater god forgot place created exalted god , thereby evil sin entered creation actually , story goes lucifer refused bow man god commanded lucifer devoted god oh yeah , nothing genesis says snake anything snake \( well , talking one legs time , \) n't think pointing contradictions stories best way show error theology think supernatural entity kicked first humans paradise bit fruit gave special powers well , might respond well reason logic \) brian
bcash crchh410 nosubdomain nodomain \( brian cash \) subject ancient islamic rituals nntp posting host crchh410 organization bnr , inc lines 38 article 1993apr3 081052 11292 monu6 cc monash edu au , darice yoyo cc monash edu au \( fred rice \) writes discussion pros cons sex outside marriage evidence opinions \? moment , generalities cite example , read 20th century , percentage youth \( people general \) suffer depression steadily climbing western societies \( probably reading referred particularly usa \) similarly , one detect trend towards greater occurrence sex outside marriage century western societies particularly sexual revolution 60 's , even think \( otherwise sexual revolution 60 's would possible \) , particularly gradual weakening christianity consequently christian moral teachings sex outside marriage propose two trends greater level general depression society \( psychological problems \) greater sexual promiscuity linked , latter prime cause former cannot provide evidence beyond stage , whole thesis seems reasonable request people ponder upon fred rice muslim , giving point view darice yoyo cc monash edu au think big leap sex depression one example , sex depression \) , seriously 1 \) promiscuity decline , depression 2 \) might reasonable say depression promiscuity think depression likely come emotional problems \( relationships , family , job , friends \) promiscuity used escape since see marriage civil religious bond rather emotional bond , n't see problem sex \( outside \) marriage long commitment devotion expected married couple course , opinion brian
i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) subject yeah , right organization technical university braunschweig , germany lines 54 article mimsy umd edu mangoe cs umd edu \( charley wingate \) writes revelation thing , charley \? 're talking intellectual engagement revelation , well , 's obviously risk one takes see , rational , intellectual madness qualify intellectual engagement , \? many people say concept metaphysical religious knowledge i'm objectivist , i'm particularly impressed problems problem case least bad trying explain quantum mechanics relativity terms ordinary experience one get rough understanding , language , perspective ordinary phenomena , inconsistent , perspective 's described , rather \( charitable \) exactly science uses mathematics qm representation natural language supposed replace elaborate representation mathematical terminology supposed truth , opposed representation gods religions ordinary language admittedly , every religion says , fancy side effect inept representations eternal hassles religions qm allows making experiments lead results agreed upon similar show something similar religion analogous situation \( supposedly \) obtains metaphysics problem better descriptive language available effect models presented useless one argue way around , namely reason metaphysics still flourish makes statements verified falsified showing bogus case holds reliable information , show establish \? word reliable essentially meaningless context unless show reliability determined n't read many posts reliability respectively determined \? benedikt
darice yoyo cc monash edu au \( fred rice \) subject yet rushdie islamic law organization monash university , melb , australia lines 131 3 p00261 psilink com robert knowles p00261 psilink com writes date sat , 3 apr 1993 10 00 39 gmt fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes british go around blowing next \? n't know , seems implying \( 1 \) person accused blowing wtc ny actually , \( 2 \) islamic teachings something blowing wtc wtc world trade centre , building blown , think okay make comments \( 1 \) person accused innocent proven guilty , remember \? secondly , seem holes accusation read instance , guy used particular van blow building , go back claim deposit back afterwards , must incredibly stupid perhaps one uneducated muslims hear much nevertheless , apparently smart enough put together sophisticated bomb n't seem fit together , somehow actually , person involved fellow chemical engineer working allied signal specifically studied explosive devices school \( believe actually allow radical muslim types study things like universities much price freedom \) read , fellow told put together phone bomb supposedly sort sophisticated type , put \( assume complicated \) sophisticated bomb together instructions phone \( ! \) one must need brains would expect despite , already many attacks threats mosques muslims united states consequence accusation , read k , please tell us happening live u heard little mosque attacks many mosques houston , texas would like know going verify great jewish media conspiracy keeping us knowing u heard mosque attacks desert storm venture , quiet \? maybe localized new jersey \? read article australian muslim times , newspaper \( weekly \) australian muslim community true , perhaps one muslims based north america \( see posting \) elaborate \( 2 \) islamic teachings teach innocent qur'an explicitly teaches innocents even times war blowing wtc innocents therefore blatant contradiction islamic teachings means absolutely nothing plenty people commit violence following think valid religious principles seen people post many things koran could misinterpreted \( explanation wish use \) uneducated muslim allow harm idolators unbelievers first thing every muslim says muslim could done islam teaches innocents supposed take word never happens think consequence \? allah strike alleged violence occurs \? course muslims commit violent act everyone hides behind verses koran 're pretty hip trick even doubt come trials defense muslim islam teaches harm innocent therefore , people killed must innocent sure set bomb , honor , must remember , sir , muslim allah powerful allah would allowed insulting religion \? great defense , eh \? admit incredibly stupid , violent muslims world stop hiding fact one good deny makes reasonable muslims look like protecting bad ones see \? n't deny fact thrust argument \( \) , according us law , innocent found guilty court law guilt established , wrong people make postings based assumption \( b \) islam teaches us harm innocents muslims perhaps realized islam teaches perform actions , teachings islam , rather spite contradiction teachings islam important distinction clarify muslims usually mean say muslim general , anyone calls muslim profess something clear contradiction essential teachings islam considered muslim thus , one might things contrary islam \( ignorance , example \) suddenly become muslim one knowingly islamic teachings essential principles , though , one leave islam term muslim contrasted , means true believer however , whether muslim reality something known god \( perhaps person \) find term used much muslims alt atheism , known anybody \( except god \) , whether , example , true believer example , could putting show , reality believe something opposite write , without anyone knowing thus , say muslims mean profess follow islam , whether practice might , ignorance , islamic teachings muslim necessarily mean , true believer islam fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au
dpw sei cmu edu \( david wood \) subject gospel dating reply mangoe cs umd edu 's message 4 apr 93 10 56 03 gmt organization software engineering institute lines 33 mangoe cs umd edu \( charley wingate \) writes david wood writes extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence seriously , high way saying n't believe 're saying making meta argument \? case , wrong think invisible pink unicorns also , existence jesus claim responding historical accuracy biblical claims , existence jesus one , one even mentioned post may want complain miracles attributed constitute claims \( wo n't argue otherwise \) , different issue wrong exactly issue go back read context included within post , 'll see mean 've done kindness responding questions , please answer charley challenges claim ! ! variety dishonest dodge feel certain fools one person dave wood
dpw sei cmu edu \( david wood \) subject another thing reply mangoe cs umd edu 's message 3 apr 93 00 46 07 gmt organization software engineering institute lines 39 mangoe cs umd edu \( charley wingate \) writes keith ryan writes ignore criticism logic , possible stance \? answer questions validity opinion facts state \? start saying 's said , response ! , 's reason continue someone going argue version position , cannot argued course version position included charley challenges , claim flat lie , last week claimed might answer challenges turned included text , want context included articles \? come think , contradiction new entry next challenges post way , 've kept every bloody thing 've written related thread , pleased post back position seem forgotten leave electronic paper trail net usual theist approach matter many times certain argument disproven , shown non applicable non sequitur keep cropping time time speaking non , little said sauce goose disproof fallacies repeated \( law nature argument someone posted recently \) , , let 's change subject would n't best finish thread question begin new ones \? dave wood
howland reston ans net ! europa eng gtefsd com ! fs7 ece cmu edu ! news sei cmu edu ! dpw subject periodic post charley challenges , 3 , additions dpw sei cmu edu \( david wood \) organization software engineering institute lines 250 new version challenge 5 , plus addendum summarizing charley 's responses date posting made periodically attempt encourage charley wingate address direct challenges evidently specious claims 'll continue post periodically answers , publicly indicates wo n't answer , stops posting alt atheism , alt atheism community tells stop , get totally bored apologize somewhat juvenile nature approach , i'm loss figure another way crack intransigence seeming intellectual dishonesty post 3 charley , ca n't help notice still failed provide answers substantive questions raised response previous posts submit n't answer cannot answer without running logic , challenge prove wrong make task easy possible , 'll present concise statements questions failed answer , hope may address one time see fail answer within reasonable time period , post article , suitable additions deletions , time notice post another topic repeat procedure either address outstanding challenges cease post newsgroup would like apologize advance answered questions previously answer missed notice kind enough post e mail articles , pleased publicly rescind challenge question , remove list , questions 1 claiming atheists fit neat psychological patterns proposed , semi claim stating n't referring atheists , asked name atheists feel n't fit patterns , show indeed referring atheists aware failed please question name posters fit stereotype \? context question true everyone board , line assuming , however , deleted text along said n't mean imply everybody 's experience along lines whether mean make implications , repeatedly allow approach issue another viewpoint name atheists 've come across fit patterns \? 2 taken statements effect senses reason go , pressed , implied alternative called revelation repeatedly asked explain revelation one experience interpret revelation without via senses reason failed please question explain revelation one experience interpret without using senses inherent reasoning \? context question revelation reason , revelation , reasoning first , show revelation exists second , revelation perceived senses , exactly perceived \? according webster 's , revelation act revealing communicating divine truth , tell thing revealed communicated via senses \? tell interpret revelation reason , , using brain interpret sensing say way human interface universe via senses interpreted reason \( brain \) , simple truth another mechanism interface , means , share us later cannot escape fact entire interface universe senses reason , period , , simple truth challenge show otherwise later mystics agree assertion , common defense senses absorb \( instance \) mystical experiences begs question whether senses better others allow broadest definition senses , make things easier , show mystical experiences exist remember , n't allowed go testimony others \( e g , mystics \) , since dismissed testimony unreliable know , tainted bias , mystical absorbed , show evidence human recognize respond short interpretation via person 's reasoning capabilities challenge show things cannot , might well give fight later let reiterate , explained interpretation experiences , possible attacked point fact , specifically challenged explain revelation stuff talking , note record appear declined challenge \? sensed \? interpreted \? sensing interpretation occur without conduit senses reasoning abilities \? answered none questions go straight heart claims ca n't answer , claims entirely specious 3 stated claims analysis made posters unverifiable asked identify one claim made failed please question made claims unverifiable \? , please repeat context question must thank david wood sensitive intelligent \( wrong \) \) posting later likewise , reference unverifiable , claims represents fairly accurately reaction claims analysis repeated group give address 'll pleased send dictionary failing , name one claim made sense unverifiable \? demand retract statement cannot offer evidence follow usual pattern ignoring challenge , simply asshole 4 first dismissed claims atheists became atheists result reason , later stated one accepted axioms reason one could n't help become atheist asked explain contradiction response statement question incoherent , opinion shared others asked , atheist theist failed answer question please question retract claim posters become atheists result reason , despite testimony effect \? n't retract claim , retract subsequent claim acceptance axioms reason inevitably result atheism \? context question first quote bunch people claim position based reason atheists prove , second quote see one accept axioms end atheistic point view 5 first , claimed would \( probably \) answer challenges contained much way included text previous posts later , implied would n't respond putting words mouth please clarify seeming contradiction question prefer respond challenges include context posts , paraphrase positions order avoid included text \? context question first said ordinary rules n't read articles 150 lines articles nothing included text first screen rules morality , practicality later someone going argue version position , cannot argued usual , responses awaited anticipation dave wood p , record , compilation charley 's responses challenges date 3 18 93 makes sense gives appearance either utter , answering question mr wood 's imagination 3 31 93 \( 1 \) mr wood , subscribe opinion gauntlet thrown net requires response whatsoever point might read respond article , , might ordinary rules n't read articles 150 lines articles nothing included text first screen rules morality , practicality 3 31 93 \( 2 \) left something else n't respond utmost list things avoid arguments arguments \( meta arguments , call \) 4 3 93 start saying 's said , response ! , 's reason continue someone going argue version position , cannot argued
sgiblab ! panasonic com ! nntp server caltech edu ! keith subject political atheists \? keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) gap caltech edu fido asd sgi com gap caltech edu fido asd sgi com gap caltech edu ursa bear com organization california institute technology , pasadena nntp posting host punisher caltech edu lines 22 halat pooh bears \( jim halat \) writes think objective morality exist , flavors morality approximations , natural objective morality fairly easily defined , long goal mind , purpose morality maybe i'm quite getting mean , think objective morality oxymoron definition , seems , goal oriented issue like subjective nature n't get 're using word objective , goal need subjective one instance , goal natural morality propogation species , perhaps n't really intelligent animals came along revisions necessary intelligent animals different needs others , hence morality suited must bit complicated law jungle n't think self subjective might think , objectivity , assuming ideals system could carried completely keith
dpw sei cmu edu \( david wood \) subject request support organization software engineering institute lines 35 request would like see charley wingate respond charley challenges \( judging e mail , appear quite \) clear mr wingate intends continue post unrelated articles challenges last two postings challenges , noted perhaps dozen posts mr wingate , none answered single challenge seems mr wingate hopes questions go away , level best change subject given seems rather common net theist tactic , would like suggest impress upon desire answers , following manner 1 ignore future articles mr wingate address challenges , answers announces refuses 2 must respond one articles , include within something similar following please answer questions posed charley challenges really , i'm looking anyone , want honest answers would n't think honesty would much ask devout christian , would \? nevermind , rhetorical question dave wood
i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) subject gospel dating organization technical university braunschweig , germany lines 102 article mimsy umd edu mangoe cs umd edu \( charley wingate \) writes assuming presenting accurately , n't see argument really leads firm conclusion material john \( i'm sure exactly referred , 'll take granted similarity matt luke q material \) different hence , one could almost relationship two , right john getting straight jesus' mouth , argument says john known q , ie codified version , original , assuming one weaknesses , course , like john might known original , yet rather referred q text , given codified version first place argument alone allow firm conclusion , fits well dating usually given gospels talking date texts , age authors usual explanation time order mark , matthew luke consider respective ages says matthew read text mark , luke matthew \( probably mark \) version usual theory heard matthew luke independently relying mark q one would think luke relied matthew , would n't grating inconsistencies , one thing necessarily , luke may trusted version knew better version given matthew improving matthew would give motive , instance far know , theory luke known matthew based statistical analysis texts assumed john knew content luke 's text evidence overwhelming , admittedly part particularly new possible could point reference , 'd grateful yep , take another day get source hope german good enough \) unfortunately , n't got info hand \( think \) late '70s early '80s , possibly old ce 200 200 , shed doubt order putting john rest three \? closes gap \( supposed \) writing existing copy quit bit away original , copies written , therefore survival becomes probable still see copies 200 allow change dating john john disciple generally accepted style language together theology usually used i'm really impressed theology argument i'm really pointing pointed earlier , one cannot make arguments peter see reason accept authentic letter yes , gives possibilities evidence many letters still discussed looks conclusions drawn pet dogmas churches would probably fall well one step one generation removed bad even times compare reports similar events century almost illiterate societies best analogy would reporters talking participants , bad well , rather like newsletter political party reporting big meeting necessarily wrong , certainly bad words , one know original mark look like arguments based mark pretty weak statement divinity section , case , 's agreed important epistles mark yes , accuracy tradition another problem question letters paul mark claiming divinity jesus \? benedikt
bobs thnext mit edu \( robert singleton \) subject americans evolution organization massachvsetts institvte technology lines 138 distribution world nntp posting host thnext mit edu article i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) writes article senator bedfellow mit edu bobs thnext mit edu \( robert singleton \) writes \( deletion \) argue latter statement , believe gods exist rest upon faith , making positive statement gods exist \( strong atheism \) rather merely saying n't know therefore n't believe n't believe \( weak atheism \) , believe god different saying believe god exist still maintain position , even reading faqs , strong atheism requires faith way usually used view , saying driving car requires faith car drives i'm saying requires faith part say car drives 've seen drive 've done fact 've actually driven \( require faith belief senses give accurate representation 's \) evidence pro con existence non existence god \( see say \) conclusion , faith premises argument used sorry remain skeptical n't believe 's entirely conclusion seen evidence god correct neither lack evidence existence something way evidence non existence something \( creationist similar mode argumentation disprove evolution establish creation \) \( personally \) never seen , exist pink unicorn analogy breaks rather naive scientific theory explains appearance animal life evolution draw conclusion pink unicorns n't exist n't seen , conclusion 's foundation observation theory pink unicorn , exist , would qualitatively similar known entities say , since good evidence life earth evolved primitive ancestors pink unicorns would share common horses god , however , correspondence anything \( imo \) physical frame work observation draw conclusions first let say following might language problem regards faith existence , christian , maintain god exist exist means space time god god kierkegaard said god exist , eternal said , feel 's rather pointless debate called existence god i'm believe god source ground say god exist , also accept statement obviously mean two different things however , follows use phrase existence god 's sense think using would like clarification upon mean existence god , 's word game disagree profoundly n't defined god existence fact , n't defined god might getting subject although think 's relevant come back , saying god existence either waste time , existence already used need replace god , implying , case definition argument far incomplete , making fallacy using wrong categories perhaps misunderstand i'm saying i'm making argument ever offering definition fallacy i'm trying convince anything believe rests upon faith inappropriate apply category logic realm \( unless someone tells logically prove god evidence , use logic disprove claims fine necessary \) btw , incomplete argument fallacy things even wrong \( deletion \) one never prove god exist say believe god exist , opinion based upon observation , ask refering \? observations pro con valid establishing positive belief \( deletion \) follow \? n't observations based assumption something exists \? n't follow certainly one make observations things n't know existed still maintain one cannot use observation infer god exist positive assertion requires leap would n't say level definition assumption god meaningful , would reject concept anyway , evidence god meaningful level \? seem completely misunderstand evidence 'god meaningful level maybe response gave comes naturally many people try run private conception god throat , however , arguing one , one , thing make positive assertion something principle evidence requires leap requires faith , would say , theist however , form atheism respect must founded upon honesty benedikt bob singleton bobs thnext mit edu
bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) subject second law \( albert sabin \) nntp posting host okcforum osrhe edu organization okcforum unix users group x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 20 joel \( amdahl com \) wrote mr connor 's assertion complex later simply incorrect many known whole structures lost example , snakes lost legs cave fish lost eyes species almost completely lost males descended birds functional wings joel , statements made quality evolutionary process way evolution described explained terms , whole point even reason believe understand evolution \( biologists instance \) tend nature ca n't help wonder 's limits language nature nature bill
bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) subject gospel dating nntp posting host okcforum osrhe edu organization okcforum unix users group x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 16 keith ryan \( kmr4 po cwru edu \) wrote wild claims require greater evidence state one books room blue , certainly need much evidence believe claim two headed bed n't mean male lover ! keith , issue , truth consequences whatever proposition argued irrelevent issue , consequences true , truth irrelevent \? bill
bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) subject gospel dating nntp posting host okcforum osrhe edu organization okcforum unix users group x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 22 jim perry \( perry dsinc com \) wrote bible says god true atheism mistaken \? seems pretty obvious socrates said many gods true \( atheism \) mistaken , even socrates never existed jim , think must come late discussion \( part least \) began benedikt 's questioning historical nt making point , standards used validate secular history used discredit nt history , virtually nothing known first century seem saying bible cannot true speaks existence god fact objection nothing history , merely another statement atheism bill
bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) subject omni ! nntp posting host okcforum osrhe edu organization okcforum unix users group x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 18 charley wingate \( mangoe cs umd edu \) wrote please enlighten omnipotence contradictory \? definition , occur universe governed rules nature thus god cannot break anything god must allowed rules somewhere therefore , omnipotence cannot exist ! contradicts rules nature obviously , omnipotent god change rules say , definition , exactly defined certainly omnipotence seem saying rules nature pre existant somehow , define nature actually cause 's mean 'd like hear thoughts question bill
bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) subject knew nntp posting host okcforum osrhe edu organization okcforum unix users group x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 20 edu wrote upon arriving home , joseph probably took advantage mary way speak course , word could n't get around mary , highly religious follower decided hey , 'll say god impregnated one ever know ! thus , seen trustworthy honorable soul , believed came jesus , child born violence dave , explain purpose post , ca n't imagine must meant bill
bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) subject allah praise lord nntp posting host okcforum osrhe edu organization okcforum unix users group x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 15 maddi hausmann \( madhaus netcom com \) wrote thank lord bill connor returned set us straight ! know die happy lexus rain slick curve 1997 rest best straighten , time even limited going flu 1994 maddi , know 're glad visit wo n't stay long time , shopping around bill
bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) subject dear mr theist nntp posting host okcforum osrhe edu organization okcforum unix users group x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 20 pixie \( andy bgsu edu \) wrote problems technology caused , types made things even worse must reminded inquisition , operation rescue , ku klux klan , , 700 club , david duke , salem witch trials , crusades , gay , etc plus virtually every single war , regardless level technology , theistic organizations cheering carnage \( , etc \) , claiming god favor whole ordeal n't forget pray troops ! really tedious every bad thing 's ever happened influence religion anyone really believe 've seen often must pretty general opinion , want believe atheists really dishonest please , stick facts , accomplished , interpret correctly bill
bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) subject morality constant \( biblical rape \) nntp posting host okcforum osrhe edu organization okcforum unix users group x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 65 jim perry \( perry dsinc com \) wrote , de facto de implemented legal systems , widespread , bible , although 100 egalitarian , specifically preaches kindness stranger , emphasizes book ruth , foreigner join nation give rise one great heroes nation clearly better alternative , american strikes strange story even considered issue jim , couple things post others thread little confusing atheist one things understood processes nature exclusively need recourse describe explain anything purpose direction event beyond required physics , chemistry , biology , etc everything random , nothing would also include human intelligence course products nothing requiring life evolve acquire intelligence , 's happy accident atheist , event preferred another said less value another naturalistic sense , thought event value products intelligence acquired environment , teaching , training , observation experience significant individual mind wherein reside mental processes images produce us electrical activity nothing content consequence human mind much response natural forces water running hill atheist judge value \? basis criticizing values bible purposes imputed god \? grounds behavior condemned \? seems , judging values motivate others action , standard conduct measured , nature serve purpose \? law nature invoke establish values since every event entirely exclusively physical event , difference could possibly make anyone , religious otherwise , meaning value way atheist object behaviour admit objection entirely subjective \( \) n't like 's value judgement must disclaimer nothing matter personal opinion carries weight absolute sense n't like god told people says nothing god god 's commands , says electrical event nervous system created emotional state mind coupled pre existing thought set form reaction objections seem well founded due way 've conditioned truth content whole intellectual landscape illusion , virtual reality n't make rules , 's inherent naturalistic atheism consistent , accept non significance human thought , even , excluded discussion values , right , wrong , , evil , etc cannot participate opinion bible weight whatsoever bill
bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) subject bill conner nntp posting host okcforum osrhe edu organization okcforum unix users group x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 6 could explain pertains \? position statement something typing practice \? using name , think relates anything 've said , bill
darice yoyo cc monash edu au \( fred rice \) subject islam dress code women organization monash university , melb , australia lines 120 i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) writes article 1993apr5 monu6 cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au \( fred rice \) writes \( deletion \) course people say think religion , exactly coming different people within religion nothing existing different perspectives within religion perhaps one say tend converge truth point lot harm way meantime converge , religions appear split diverge even might core , layers determine happens practise , quite inhumane usually post supposed answer , n't see got say repeat religions harm people religions n't converge , split giving disagree upon lot disagreement one tolerant one tolerant ideologies also split , giving disagree upon , may also lead intolerance also oppose ideologies \? n't think argument argument religion , points weaknesses human nature \( big deletion \) \( 2 \) women souls islam \? people said muslims say women souls must admit never heard view held muslims era heard christians eras holding viewpoint , muslims sure might confusing christian history islamic history \? yes , supposed predominant view turkish would like reference got one , news anyhow , women spiritual equals men clearly shown many verses qur'an example , qur'an says muslim men women , believing men women , devout men women , true men women , men women patient constant , men women humble , men women give charity , men women fast \( deny \) , men women guard chastity , men women engage much god 's praise god prepared forgiveness great reward qur'an 33 35 , abdullah yusuf ali 's translation quotes , think quote shows men women spiritual equals \( thus , women souls men \) clearly , implies souls , say souls given quote given high priority interpretations one must approach qur'an intelligence thinking approach qur'an cannot interpret verse others like women men spiritual equals think verse clearly imply women souls make sense something without soul forgiven \? great reward \( understood life \) \? think usual answer would case , part saying god prepared forgiveness great reward says souls \( makes sense say things without souls forgiven , idea soul \) saying quote may given high priority interpretations , thinking approach qur'an give verses qur'an equal priority , according muslim belief , whole qur'an revelation god fact , denying truth part qur'an sufficient considered disbeliever islam quite similar post , even quran encourage slavery , justified say iit forbids puts end slavery non sequitur look , approach qur'an must done intelligence thought fashion one try understand quran 's message book finite length , cannot explicitly answer every question want put , teachings guide think , however , women spiritual equals men clearly unambiguously implied verse , since women clearly forgiven rewarded must souls \( verse \) let 's try understand qur'an trying teach , rather try see many ways misinterpreted ignoring passage passage qur'an based ignoring verse verse infinite , interpretations fully consistent limited let 's try discuss interpretations consistent text rather people ignore bit bit , showing people try twist islam ends something deny provides reflection true teachings islam whatsoever fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au
darice yoyo cc monash edu au \( fred rice \) subject slavery \( sex allowed marriage \) organization monash university , melb , australia lines 208 1993apr4 eas asu edu guncer enuxha eas asu edu \( selim guncer \) writes might like bernard lewis writes , label zionist discredit etc misrepresent , selim hard evidence statements lack objectivity presented quite clearly book edward said edward said , way , christian , muslim think pretty much objective treatment race slavery middle east , since clearly distinguishes slavery islam , practice slavery countries , like us prior civil war also conceal verses quran promote liberation slaves n't , n't think nobody , deduce verses slavery eventually abolished islamic countries might , rather conveniently , blame practice slavery muslims , facts also fail see relevance claim lewis zionist wrote regarding bernard lewis zionist gives political motive giving misrepresentations half truths islam read edward said see evidence fact , may post \( n't long \) information anybody access slavery abolished certain dates 1200 years muhammed , cause tensions ottoman empire arab slave traders government etc also asu library volumes british documents slavery reports documents concerning slavery around world found , checked incidents lewis mentions n't think ones political stance anything documentary evidence n't read lewis 's article , ca n't comment directly upon , spoken writings general far , political motives make biased writer islam anti islamic , understand , often quite subtle often based telling half truths , read edward said asking take say trust , fact urging get book \( well known book \) check evidence issue raised slaves used sexual purposes , claimed islam prohibits extra marital sex wrote prophet , wrote incident prophet advised someone want get pregnant etc , contrary notion sex procreation words , claims baseless quran hadith slavery reality \( opposed practice muslims \) opposed islam , using slaves sexual purposes necessarily opposed seem getting islam advocating slavery slavery existing institution 7th century advised slaves freed good deeds etc , nothing new many cultures saw good thing problem \? argue rightfully slaves discouraged thinking politically quran rewards good slave , obey master perhaps one day 'll free , understandable communicate muslims , since assume quran god , think rule based system imposed society preservation status quo slaves part system , women function society boils child making part system , etc understand point view , selim think , rather , us getting points repeat already answered regarding women , made posting posting subject , showing islam anti woman , etc however , completely ignoring postings missing \? reposted good one , title islam women , reposted soc religion islam already disappeared site , please email telling email copy excellent article imho , understanding issue women islam sadly deficient regarding slaves , posting slavery second one made , repost article wrote early last year based completely qur'an contains numerous verses hadiths support point view approaches different arguing historical standpoint arguing directly teachings qur'an hadiths , people say muslims perform particular action , automatically mean action part islam , even opposed qur'an sunnah \? ! course let give concrete example , might help clarify qur'an prohibits drinking , person says muslim proceeds drink bottle beer , mean islam teaches people drink beer \? course , idiot would think see point \? natural think author authors quran idea socio economic structure advocating would experience least two paradigm shifts 1400 years western cultures first end feudal era rise commerce , second industrial revolution well , rules changed status quo driven muslim countries misery trying survive heathen world muslim countries failed economically , unable accumulate wealth directly due economic rules quran fact , rise islam easily modeled pyramid effect produce wealth home , increase wealth conquering places judging islam capitalist terms capitalism ideology based largely assumption people want maximise wealth assumption opposition islamic teachings say islam bad capitalist pretty islam pretend capitalist try capitalist \( mean islam support free market general parts capitalism opposed islam understand \) stopped , \( \) left bare open capital , industry , poor social services education level muslim countries lowest world , health statistics miserable etc one postulate numerous reasons theory islam capitalist , etc etc selim , give clear historical example show fallacy views think \( obviously \) islam lack education power large part history , islamic world powerful significant section history , islamic world foremost sciences say islam , example , anti education completely absurd try blame situation islam history shows conclusion false , instead , must reasons situation blame muslims following quran , blame muslims following quran well , selim , viewpoint women islam makes question extent knowledge islam really think knowledgeable enough able judge whether muslims following qur'an idea baseless historical facts , poor utopia , islamic world forefront world science one stage yet somehow , theory , following qur'an muslims backwards education selim , thesis anti historical , conveniently overlook historical fact contradicts theory ideas derived social economic history certainly shown merely stated far , seems view islam anti education quite contrary history convinced views makes wonder objectively trying look solution muslims simple cut crap , think , selim , consider taking advice get facts straight work hard reverse effects 1300 years ignorance selim , conviction viewpoint , yet demonstrate ignorance , islam also islamic history \( particularly respect muslims leaders science till 1400 think \) yet say viewpoint based history ! selim , remember right , say one earlier posts apostate islam think slow start thinking clearly issues , start reading postings islam rather ignoring obviously fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au
dgraham bmers30 bnr ca \( douglas graham \) subject jews ca n't hide keith cco organization bell northern research , ottawa , canada lines 40 article 9s2 fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes article 1993apr3 bmerh85 bnr ca , dgraham bmers30 bnr ca \( douglas graham \) writes poster casually trashed two thousand years jewish history , ken replied previously people like germany think problem pretty much ignored part jews 2000 years , thinking instead important part original poster said bit killing palestinians retrospect , see thing would offensive many originally saw poetic license , 's understandable others might see differently still think ken came bit strong though also think advice masud khan argue someone like mr arromdee , 's good idea little homework , least think unnecessary 's right also people formally nazis nazi party would gone nowhere without active tacit support ordinary man street behaved though casual anti semitism perfectly acceptable exactly n't understand wrote , n't see matter hand \? throughout articles thread tacit assumption original poster exhibiting casual anti semitism agreed , maybe speech bad might relevant think 're reading lot one flip sentence probably true case , often charge anti semitism gets thrown around order stifle legitimate criticism state israel anyway , 'd rather somewhere else , i'm outta thread doug graham dgraham bnr ca opinions
mathew mathew mantis co uk subject alt atheism faq frequently asked questions summary please read file posting alt atheism keywords faq , atheism expires fri , 14 may 1993 09 39 55 gmt distribution world organization mantis consultants , cambridge uk supersedes mantis co uk lines 733 archive name atheism faq alt atheism archive name faq last modified 5 april 1993 version 1 1 alt atheism frequently asked questions file contains responses articles occur repeatedly alt atheism points covered ones covered introduction atheism advised read article well posting answers intended exhaustive definitive purpose periodic faq postings stifle debate , raise level something say concerning one questions n't covered answer given , please feel free make point overview contents purpose newsgroup \? hitler atheist ! bible proves pascal 's wager occam 's razor \? 's good believe jesus know god exists einstein god play dice everyone worships something must causeless cause universe complex must designed independent evidence bible true godel 's incompleteness theorem george bush atheism patriotism know hell ! biblical contradictions wanted usa christian nation usa christian nation subject purpose newsgroup \? typical posting newsgroup atheism \? atheists organize groups \? discuss \? response many things discussed , including whether reasonable theism order avoid upsetting one 's family prayer schools discrimination atheists sunday trading laws satanic child abuse myth whether one overt atheist religious societies prey \( sic \) new college students get rid unwanted whether religion danger society individual people become atheists course , inevitably alt atheism tends attract evangelical christians looking someone convert readers newsgroup n't want preached , although seem derive perverse pleasure tearing apart particularly ill considered uninformed postings subject hitler atheist ! typical posting hitler atheist , look ! response adolf hitler emphatically atheist said minded man , particular , sacred duty , denomination , making people stop talking god 's , actually fulfill god 's , let god 's word orig god 's gave men form , essence , abilities anyone destroys work declaring war lord 's creation , divine therefore , let every man active , denomination please , let every man take first sacred duty oppose anyone activity word deed steps outside confines religious community tries butt hence today believe acting accordance almighty creator defending jew , fighting work lord orig adolf hitler , mein kampf , trans ralph mannheim course , someone bad believing something make belief wrong 's also entirely possible hitler lying claimed believe god certainly ca n't conclude 's atheist , though subject bible proves typical posting bible says response readers alt atheism feel bible questionable accuracy , written thousands years ago many authors recording oral tradition existed many years thus , claimed questionable legitimacy n't say bible truth simply truth must examined accepted many readers group also feel passage subject interpretation , claim passage one thing one thing legitimate note feeling tends extend books also remarkable many atheists theists tend ignore equally plausible religious books favour religion subject pascal 's wager typical posting believe god turn incorrect , lost nothing n't believe god turn incorrect , go hell therefore foolish atheist response argument known pascal 's wager several flaws firstly , indicate religion follow indeed , many mutually exclusive contradictory religions often described avoiding wrong hell problem person follower religion x , may end religion 's version hell secondly , statement believe god turn incorrect , lost nothing true suppose 're believing wrong god true god might punish foolishness consider also deaths resulted people rejecting medicine favour prayer another flaw argument based assumption two possibilities equally likely least , comparable likelihood , fact , possibility god close zero , argument becomes much less persuasive sadly argument likely convince believe already also , many feel intellectually honest people , belief based evidence , amount intuition matter cost benefit analysis formally speaking , argument consists four statements 1 one know whether god exists 2 believing god bad one 's eternal soul god exist 3 believing god consequence god exist 4 therefore one 's interest believe god two approaches argument first view 1 assumption , 2 consequence one problem approach , abstract , creates information information considered invalid information theory statement 1 indicates one information god statement 2 indicates beneficial information gained absolute lack information god violates information entropy information extracted information , cost alternative approach claim 1 2 assumptions problem 2 basically assumption states christian position , christian agree assumption argument thus collapses christian , interests believe god rather tautology , way pascal intended argument viewed biggest reason pascal 's wager failure god omniscient certainly know really believes believes wager latter assuming actually cares whether people believe subject occam 's razor \? typical posting people keep talking occam 's razor \? response william occam formulated principle become known occam 's razor original form , said multiply entities unnecessarily , explain something without supposing existence entity , nowadays people refer occam 's razor , generally express generally , example take simplest solution relevance atheism look two possible explanations see around us 1 incredibly intricate complex universe , came result natural processes 2 incredibly intricate complex universe , also god created universe clearly god must non zero complexity given explanations fit facts , occam 's razor might suggest take simpler two solution number one unfortunately , argue third even simple solution 3 n't incredibly intricate complex universe imagine third option leads us logically towards , many people find unacceptable subject 's good believe jesus typical posting want tell people virtues benefits religion response preaching appreciated feel free talk religion , please write postings conversion theme postings belong alt atheism rejected alt atheism moderated \( try newsgroup talk religion misc \) would doubtless welcome postings atheists favourite newsgroup attempt convert please unto others would unto ! often theists make basic claims god form lengthy analogies parables aware atheists heard god know basic claims sole purpose parable tell atheists god exists brings salvation , may well post , since tells us nothing told subject know god exists typical posting know personal experience prayer god exists response many theists personal evidence worship exists , many atheists personal evidence beings exist evidence varies person person furthermore , without wishing dismiss evidence hand , many people claimed kinds unlikely things ufos , visited ghost elvis , subject einstein god play dice typical posting albert einstein believed god think 're \? response einstein comment god play dice universe quotation commonly mentioned show einstein believed christian god used way , context refers einstein 's refusal accept uncertainties indicated quantum theory furthermore , einstein 's religious background jewish rather christian better quotation showing einstein thought god following believe spinoza 's god reveals orderly harmony exists , god concerns fates actions human beings einstein unable accept quantum theory belief objective , orderly reality reality would subject random events would dependent upon observer believed qm incomplete , better theory would need statistical interpretations far better theory found , much evidence suggests never longer quote einstein appears science , philosophy , religion , symposium , published conference science , philosophy religion relation democratic way life , inc , new york , 1941 says man ordered regularity events becomes conviction room left side ordered regularity causes different nature neither rule human rule divine exists independent cause natural events sure , doctrine personal god interfering natural events could never refuted italics , real sense , science , doctrine always take refuge domains scientific knowledge yet able set foot convinced behavior part representatives religion would unworthy also fatal doctrine maintain clear light dark , necessity lose effect mankind , harm human progress struggle ethical good , teachers religion must stature give doctrine personal god , , give source fear hope past placed vast power hands priests avail forces capable good , true , beautiful humanity , sure , difficult worthy task einstein also said , course , lie read religous convictions , lie systematically repeated believe personal god never denied expressed clearly something called religious admiration structure world far science reveal latter quote albert einstein human side , edited helen hoffman , published princeton university press also book believe immortality individual , consider ethics exclusively human concern superhuman authority behind course , fact einstein chose believe christianity imply christianity false subject everyone worships something typical posting everyone worships something , whether 's money , power god response true , everyone theists care much things atheists care reactions \( example \) families amount worship subject must causeless cause typical posting sets integers lower bound smallest member , chains causes must first element , causeless cause response set real numbers greater zero definite lower bound , smallest member , even true must causeless cause , imply cause must conscious supernatural entity , especially entity must match description favoured particular religion subject universe complex must designed typical posting presence design universe proves god surely n't think appeared chance \? response known argument design matter dispute whether element design universe believe complexity diversity living creatures earth evidence creator best advised read newsgroup talk origins insufficient space summarize sides debate however , conclusion scientific evidence favour called scientific creationism furthermore , much evidence , observation theory explain many complexities universe life earth origin argument design feeling existence something incredibly intricate , say , human improbable surely ca n't come chance surely must external intelligence directing things humans come chaos deliberately human intelligence improbable , surely existence mind capable entire universe complete conscious beings must unlikely \? approach used argue favour existence creator turned around applied creationist position leads us familiar theme creator created universe , created creator \? , addition way declare creator created \( \) might well ask wrong saying universe without introducing creator \? indeed stephen hawking , book brief history time , explains theory universe closed finite extent , beginning end argument design often stated analogy , called watchmaker argument one asked imagine one found watch beach one assume created watchmaker , evolved naturally \? course one assumes watchmaker yet like watch , universe intricate complex , argument goes , universe must creator watchmaker analogy suffers three particular flaws , common arguments design firstly , watchmaker creates watches pre existing materials , whereas god claimed created universe nothing two sorts creation clearly fundamentally different , analogy therefore rather weak secondly , watchmaker makes watches , many things world walked along beach found nuclear reactor , would n't assume created watchmaker argument would therefore suggest multitude creators , responsible different part creation finally , first part watchmaker argument conclude watch part nature ordered , therefore stands randomness nature yet second part argument , start position universe obviously random , shows elements order watchmaker argument thus internally inconsistent subject independent evidence bible true typical posting events new testament confirmed independent documentary evidence example response writings josephus often mentioned independent documentary evidence early versions josephus 's work thought mentioned jesus james extant version discusses john non christian context many scholars believe original mentioned jesus james passing , expanded christian several reconstructions original text published effect much information appears ecclesiastical history eusebius \( 320 c e \) worthless historical material deliberate eusebius generally acknowledged 'the first thoroughly dishonest historian antiquity ' eusebius generally given title authorship material aside new testament , biographical information jesus well documented information , please consult frequently asked questions file newsgroup soc religion christian subject godel 's incompleteness theorem typical posting godel 's incompleteness theorem demonstrates impossible bible true complete response godel 's first incompleteness theorem says consistent formal system sufficiently model ordinary arithmetic , one formulate expressions never proven valid invalid \( \) within formal system \( technically speaking , system must also recursive , must decision procedure determining whether given string axiom within formal system \) essentially , systems formulate known liar paradox classic liar paradox sentence ordinary english sentence false note proposition undecidable , formal system cannot even deduce undecidable logic used theological discussions rarely well defined , claims godel 's incompleteness theorem demonstrates impossible prove disprove \) existence god worthless isolation one trivially define formal system possible prove existence god , simply existence god stated axiom unlikely viewed atheists convincing proof , however may possible succeed producing formal system built axioms atheists theists agree may possible show godel 's incompleteness theorem holds system however , would still demonstrate impossible prove god exists within system furthermore , certainly would n't tell us anything whether possible prove existence god generally note also hypothetical formal systems tell us nothing actual existence god formal systems abstractions another frequent claim godel 's incompleteness theorem demonstrates religious text \( bible , book mormon whatever \) cannot consistent universally applicable religious texts formal systems , claims nonsense subject george bush atheism patriotism typical posting george bush really say atheists considered citizens \? response following exchange took place chicago airport robert sherman american atheist press george bush , august 27 1988 sherman fully accredited reporter , present invitation member press corps republican presidential nominee announce federal disaster relief illinois discussion turned presidential primary rs win votes americans atheists \? gb guess i'm pretty weak atheist community faith god important rs surely recognize equal citizenship patriotism americans atheists \? gb , n't know atheists considered citizens , considered patriots one nation god rs support sound constitutional principle separation state church \? gb yes , support separation church state i'm high atheists upi reported may 8 , 1989 , various atheist organizations still angry remarks exchange appeared boulder daily camera monday february 27 , 1989 also found free magazine , fall 1988 issue , volume 8 , number 4 , page 16 october 29 , 1988 , mr sherman confrontation ed , bush quayle '88 illinois campaign concerned lawsuit mr sherman filed stop community consolidated school district 21 \( chicago , illinois \) forcing first grade atheist son pledge allegiance flag united states one nation god \( bush 's phrase \) following conversation took place rs american atheists filed pledge allegiance lawsuit yesterday bush campaign official response filing \? em 's bullshit rs bullshit \? em everything american atheists , rob , bullshit rs thank telling official position bush campaign issue em 're welcome bush 's election , american atheists wrote bush asking retract statement february 21st 1989 , c gray , counsel president , replied white house bush stood original statement , wrote aware , president religious man neither supports atheism believes atheism unnecessarily encouraged supported government information , contact american atheist veterans american atheist press 's cameron road address subject know hell ! typical posting know hell ! hell norway ! response several towns called hell various countries around world , including norway usa whilst information mildly amusing first time one hears , readers alt atheism getting pretty fed hearing every week subject biblical contradictions wanted typical posting anyone list biblical contradictions \? response american atheist press publish atheist 's handbook detailing biblical contradictions see accompanying posting atheist resources details file containing biblical contradictions available archive server mantis co uk see contacts file information subject usa christian nation typical posting religious beliefs founding fathers , n't united states considered christian nation \? response based upon writings several important founding fathers , clear never intended us christian nation quotes many influence , fact , ecclesiastical establishments society \? instances seen erect spiritual tyranny ruins civil authority many instances seen upholding political tyranny instance guardians liberties people rulers wish subvert public liberty may found established clergy convenient government , instituted secure perpetuate , needs james madison , memorial , almost shudder thought fatal example abuses grief history mankind preserved cross consider engine grief produced ! john adams , letter thomas jefferson history believe example priest ridden people maintaining free civil government marks lowest grade ignorance , political well religious leaders always avail purpose thomas jefferson baron von , 1813 cannot conceive otherwise , infinite father , expects requires worship praise us , even infinitely benjamin franklin , articles belief acts religion , nov 20 , subject usa christian nation typical posting true george washington said united states sense founded upon christian religion \? response quotation often given fact article xi 1797 treaty tripoli \( 8 stat 154 , treaty series 358 \) article 11 government united states america sense founded christian religion , character enmity laws , religion tranquility , said states never entered war act hostility nation , declared parties pretext arising religious opinions shall ever produce interruption harmony existing two countries text may found congressional record treaty collections charles treaties international agreements united states america 1776 1949 , vol 11 \( pp 1070 1080 \) english text treaty tripoli approved u senate june 7 , 1797 ratified president john adams june 10 , 1797 recently discovered arabic version treaty lacks quotation , lacks article xi altogether person translated arabic english joel barlow , consul general algiers , close friend thomas paine opponent christianity possible barlow made article xi , since arabic version article found , 's hard say new treaty tripoli ratified longer contained quotation end faq digest
mathew mathew mantis co uk subject alt atheism faq constructing logical argument summary includes list logical fallacies keywords faq , atheism , argument , fallacies , logic expires thu , 20 may 1993 10 52 14 gmt distribution world organization mantis consultants , cambridge uk supersedes mantis co uk lines 632 archive name atheism logic alt atheism archive name logic last modified 5 april 1993 version 1 4 constructing logical argument although much argument usenet , general quality argument found poor article attempts provide gentle introduction logic , hope improving general level debate logic science reasoning , proof , thinking , inference concise logic allows us analyze piece reasoning determine whether correct \( valid invalid \) course , one need study logic order reason correctly nevertheless , little basic knowledge logic often helpful constructing analyzing argument note claim made whether logic universally applicable matter much open debate document merely explains use logic , given already decided logic right tool job propositions \( statements \) building blocks logical argument proposition statement either true false example , raining today tuesday propositions may either asserted \( said true \) denied \( said false \) note technical meaning deny , everyday meaning proposition meaning statement , particular arrangement words used express god exists exists god express proposition argument , quote monty python sketch , connected series statements establish definite proposition argument consists three stages first , propositions necessary argument continue stated called premises argument evidence reasons accepting argument conclusions premises \( assertions \) often indicated phrases , since , obviously \( phrase obviously often viewed suspicion , used intimidate others accepting suspicious premises something n't seem obvious , n't afraid question always say oh , yes , 're right , obvious 've heard explanation \) next , premises used derive propositions process known inference inference , one proposition arrived basis one propositions already accepted various forms valid inference propositions arrived inference may used inference inference often denoted phrases implies therefore finally , arrive conclusion argument proposition affirmed basis premises inference conclusions often indicated phrases therefore , follows , conclude conclusion often stated final stage inference example every event cause \( premise \) universe beginning \( premise \) beginnings involve event \( premise \) implies beginning universe involved event \( inference \) therefore universe cause \( inference conclusion \) note conclusion one argument might premise another argument proposition called premise conclusion respect particular argument terms make sense isolation sometimes argument follow order given example , conclusions might stated first premises stated afterwards support conclusion perfectly valid , sometimes little confusing recognizing argument much harder recognizing premises conclusions many people shower writing assertions without ever producing anything one might reasonably describe argument statements look like arguments , example bible accurate , jesus must either insane , evil liar , son god argument , conditional statement assert premises necessary support appears conclusion \( also suffers number logical flaws , 'll come later \) another example god created therefore duty god phrase duty god proposition , since neither true false therefore conclusion , sentence argument finally , causality important consider statement form b 're interested establishing b offered evidence , statement argument 're trying establish truth b , argument , explanation example must something wrong engine car , start argument car start something wrong engine explanation two traditional types argument , deductive inductive deductive argument one provides conclusive proof conclusions , argument premises true , conclusion must also true deductive argument either valid invalid valid argument defined one premises true , conclusion true inductive argument one premises provide evidence truth conclusion inductive arguments valid invalid however , talk whether better worse arguments , probable premises forms argument ordinary language neither deductive inductive however , concentrate moment deductive arguments , often viewed rigorous convincing important note fact deductive argument valid imply conclusion holds slightly counter intuitive nature implication , must consider carefully obviously valid argument consist true propositions however , argument may entirely valid even contains false propositions example insects wings \( premise \) insects \( premise \) therefore wings \( conclusion \) , conclusion true argument 's premises false argument 's premises true , however , conclusion would true argument thus entirely valid subtly , reach true conclusion one false premises , fish live sea \( premise \) dolphins fish \( premise \) therefore dolphins live sea \( conclusion \) however , one thing cannot reach false conclusion valid inference true premises therefore draw truth table implication symbol denotes implication premise , b conclusion f represent true false respectively premise conclusion inference b b f f premises false inference f valid , conclusion true false f f premises true conclusion false , inference must invalid premises true inference valid , conclusion must true sound argument valid argument whose premises true sound argument therefore arrives true conclusion careful confuse valid arguments sound arguments delve structure logical arguments would require lengthy discussion linguistics philosophy simpler probably useful summarize major pitfalls avoided constructing argument pitfalls known fallacies everyday english term fallacy used refer mistaken beliefs well faulty reasoning leads beliefs fair enough , logic term generally used refer form technically incorrect argument , especially argument appears valid convincing purposes discussion , define fallacy logical argument appears correct , seen incorrect examined closely studying fallacies aim avoid misled following list fallacies intended exhaustive argumentum ad \( appeal force \) appeal force committed resorts force threat force order try push acceptance conclusion often used politicians , summarized might makes right force threatened need direct threat example thus ample proof truth bible refuse accept truth burn hell argumentum ad hominem argumentum ad hominem literally argument directed man abusive variety argumentum ad hominem occurs , instead trying disprove truth assertion , attacks person people making assertion invalid truth assertion depend upon goodness asserting example atheism evil philosophy practised communists murderers sometimes court law doubt cast upon testimony witness showing , example , known valid way reducing credibility testimony given witness , argumentum ad hominem however , demonstrate witness 's testimony false conclude otherwise fall victim argumentum ad \( see elsewhere list \) form argumentum ad hominem committed person argues opponent ought accept truth assertion opponent 's particular circumstances example perfectly acceptable kill animals food argue otherwise 're quite happy wear leather shoes \? abusive charge inconsistency , used excuse dismissing opponent 's argument fallacy also used means rejecting conclusion example course would argue positive discrimination bad thing 're white particular form argumentum ad hominem , one alleges one 's adversary rationalizing conclusion formed selfish interests , also known poisoning well argumentum ad argumentum ad means argument ignorance fallacy occurs whenever argued something must true simply proved false , , argued something must false proved true \( note assuming something false proved true , basic scientific principle \) examples course bible true nobody prove otherwise course telepathy psychic phenomena exist nobody shown proof real note fallacy apply court law , one generally assumed innocent proven guilty also , scientific investigation known event would produce certain evidence occurred , absence evidence validly used infer event occur example flood described bible would require enormous volume water present earth earth tenth much water , even count frozen ice poles therefore flood occurred science , validly assume lack evidence something occurred cannot conclude certainty occurred , however argumentum ad appeal pity , also known special pleading fallacy committed appeals pity sake getting conclusion accepted example murder mother father axe please n't find guilty i'm suffering enough argumentum ad known appealing gallery , appealing people commit fallacy attempt win acceptance assertion appealing large group people form fallacy often characterized language example pornography must banned violence women bible must true millions people know trying tell mistaken fools \? argumentum ad fallacy closely related argumentum ad consists asserting people support believe proposition , likely proposition correct argumentum ad appeal authority uses admiration famous try win support assertion example isaac newton genius believed god line argument always completely bogus example , reference admitted authority particular field may relevant discussion subject example , distinguish quite clearly stephen hawking concluded black holes give radiation john concluded impossible build intelligent computer hawking physicist , reasonably expect opinions black hole radiation informed linguist , questionable whether well qualified speak subject machine intelligence fallacy accident fallacy accident committed general rule applied particular case whose accidental circumstances mean rule inapplicable error made one goes general specific example christians generally dislike atheists christian , must dislike atheists fallacy often committed moralists try decide every moral legal question mechanically applying general rules converse accident hasty generalization fallacy reverse fallacy accident occurs one forms general rule examining specific cases representative possible cases example jim bakker christian therefore christians sweeping generalization sweeping generalization occurs general rule applied particular situation features particular situation render rule inapplicable sweeping generalization opposite hasty generalization non causa pro causa post hoc ergo propter hoc known false cause fallacies fallacy non causa pro causa occurs one identifies something cause event actually shown cause example took aspirin prayed god , headache disappeared god cured headache fallacy post hoc ergo propter hoc occurs something assumed cause event merely happened event example soviet union collapsed taking atheism therefore must avoid atheism reasons cum hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy similar post hoc ergo propter hoc asserts two events occur together , must related , leaves room factors may cause \( \) events fallacy occurs premises least questionable conclusion reached fallacy occurs one assumes premise conclusion one wishes reach often , proposition rephrased fallacy appears valid argument example homosexuals must allowed hold government office hence government official revealed homosexual lose job therefore homosexuals anything hide secret , open blackmail therefore homosexuals cannot allowed hold government office note argument entirely circular premise conclusion argument like actually cited reason british secret official ban homosexual employees another example classic know god exists bible tells us know bible true word god complex question fallacy interrogation fallacy one example classic loaded question stopped beating wife \? question presupposes definite answer another question even asked trick often used lawyers cross examination , ask questions like hide money stole \? similarly , politicians often ask loaded questions long ec interference affairs allowed continue \? chancellor plan two years privatization \? fallacy irrelevant conclusion consists claiming argument supports particular conclusion actually logically nothing conclusion example , christian may begin saying argue teachings christianity undoubtably true argues length christianity great help many people , matter well argues shown christian teachings true sadly , fallacious arguments often successful emotions cause others view supposed conclusion favourable light occurs key word used two different meanings argument example could affordable free software \? make sure remains free , users like , must place license make sure always freely redistributable occurs premises used argument ambiguous careless phrasing accent accent another form fallacy shifting meaning case , meaning changed altering parts statement emphasized example , consider speak ill friends speak ill friends fallacies composition one fallacy composition conclude property shared parts something must apply whole example bicycle made entirely low mass components , therefore lightweight fallacy composition conclude property number individual items shared collection items example car uses less petrol causes less pollution bus therefore cars less environmentally damaging buses fallacy division fallacy division opposite fallacy composition like opposite , exists two varieties first assume property thing must apply parts example studying rich college therefore must rich assume property collection items shared item example ants destroy tree therefore ant destroy tree slippery slope argument argument states one event occur , harmful events proof made harmful events caused first event example legalize marijuana , would legalize crack heroin 'll nation full drug addicts welfare therefore cannot legalize marijuana based b fallacies type fallacies fallacies occur one attempts argue things way similar without actually specifying way similar examples n't history based upon faith \? , n't bible also form history \? islam based faith , christianity based faith , n't islam form christianity \? cats form animal based carbon chemistry , dogs form animal based carbon chemistry , n't dogs form cat \? affirmation consequent fallacy argument form implies b , b true , therefore true understand fallacy , examine truth table implication given earlier denial fallacy argument form implies b , false , therefore b false , truth table implication makes clear fallacy note fallacy different non causa pro causa latter form implies b , false , therefore b false , fact imply b , problem implication invalid rather allow us deduce anything b converting conditional fallacy argument form b , therefore b argumentum ad fallacy asserting something right good simply old , 's way 's always argumentum ad opposite argumentum ad fallacy asserting something correct simply new newer something else argumentum ad fallacy believing money criterion correctness money likely right argumentum ad fallacy assuming someone poor sounder virtuous one fallacy opposite argumentum ad argumentum ad incorrect belief assertion likely true often heard argumentum ad nauseum one employs constant repetition asserting something also referred black white fallacy , occurs one presents situation two alternatives , fact alternatives exist exist many questions fallacy occurs demands simple answer complex question non sequitur non sequitur argument conclusion drawn premises logically connected red herring fallacy committed irrelevant material introduced issue discussed , everyone 's attention diverted away points made , towards different conclusion occurs abstract concept treated concrete thing shifting burden proof burden proof always person making assertion proposition shifting burden proof , special case argumentum ad , fallacy putting burden proof person denies questions assertion made source fallacy assumption something true unless proven otherwise straw man straw man fallacy misrepresent someone else 's position attacked easily , knock misrepresented position , conclude original position demolished fallacy fails deal actual arguments made extended analogy fallacy extended analogy often occurs suggested general rule argued fallacy assume mentioning two different situations , argument general rule , constitutes claim situations analogous fallacy best explained using real example debate anti cryptography legislation believe always wrong oppose law breaking position odious implies would supported martin luther king saying cryptography legislation important struggle black liberation \? dare ! tu famous fallacy occurs action argued acceptable party performed instance 're randomly abusive \? 've abusive
mathew mathew mantis co uk subject alt atheism faq overview new readers summary hi please read post keywords faq , atheism expires thu , 20 may 1993 10 52 53 gmt distribution world organization mantis consultants , cambridge uk supersedes mantis co uk lines 145 archive name atheism overview alt atheism archive name overview last modified 5 april 1993 version 1 2 overview welcome alt atheism alt atheism moderated first series regular postings aimed new readers newsgroups many groups nature noticed new readers often come questions , mis statements misconceptions post net addition , people often request information posted time time order try cut , alt atheism groups series five regular postings following titles 1 alt atheism faq overview new readers 2 alt atheism faq introduction atheism 3 alt atheism faq frequently asked questions \( faq \) 4 alt atheism faq constructing logical argument 5 alt atheism faq atheist resources article number 1 please read numbers 2 3 posting others entirely optional new usenet , may also find helpful read newsgroup news announce newusers articles titled primer work usenet community , answers frequently asked questions usenet hints writing style usenet particularly relevant questions concerning news works best asked news newusers questions unable find articles listed , see finding stuff section credits files could written without assistance many readers alt atheism alt atheism moderated particular , 'd like thank following people cs cmu edu \( karl kluge \) perry dsinc com \( jim perry \) cc ncsu edu \( wayne aiken \) gdr bath ac uk \( toby kelsey \) cs hut fi \( jyrki \) geoff arnold east sun com \( geoff arnold \) sics se \( \) kmldorf utdallas edu \( george kimeldorf \) quads uchicago edu \( greg \) arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \( ken arromdee \) madhaus netcom com \( maddi hausmann \) j5j psuvm psu edu \( john johnson \) dgraham bmers30 bnr ca \( douglas graham \) mayne open cs fsu edu \( william mayne \) ajr bigbird hri com \( andy rosen \) ira uka de \( \) unix1 tcd ie \( bryan \) lippard ccit arizona edu \( james j lippard \) rigel tamu edu \( baum \) phoenix princeton edu \( york h \) schroede sdsc edu \( wayne schroeder \) baldwin navy mil \( j baldwin \) unh edu \( dana \) dempsey kodak com \( richard c dempsey \) jmunch hertz , elee calpoly edu \( john david munch \) pdc dcs ed ac uk \( paul crowley \) rz mips ac \( richard zach \) math mit edu \( tim chow \) simon dcs warwick ac uk \( simon clippingdale \) countless others 've forgotten articles free truly free may copy distribute anyone wish however , please send changes corrections author , please post copies articles alt atheism nobody good multiple versions document floating around network finding stuff faq files somewhere news system suggestions ca n't find 1 check newsgroup alt atheism look subject lines starting alt atheism faq 2 check newsgroup news answers subject lines n't find anything steps 1 2 , news system n't set correctly , may wish tell system administrator problem 3 anonymous ftp access , connect rtfm mit edu 18 172 1 27 go directory pub usenet alt atheism , 'll find latest versions faq files ftp way copying files networked computers need help using getting started ftp , send e mail mail server rtfm mit edu send usenet news answers ftp list faq body 4 sites also carry news answers postings article introduction news answers newsgroup carries list sites article posted regularly news answers 5 n't ftp , send mail mail server rtfm mit edu consisting following lines send usenet news answers finding sources send usenet alt atheism faq send usenet alt atheism introduction send usenet alt atheism logic send usenet alt atheism resources 5 \( resort \) send mail mail server mantis co uk consisting following lines send atheism faq faq txt send atheism faq logic txt send atheism faq intro txt send atheism faq resource txt poor overworked modems try send copy files 's stuff , interesting commands try help send atheism index 6 \( last resort \) mail mathew mantis co uk , post article newsgroup asking get faq files 've tried methods 've failed 's nice clutter newsgroup people 's mailboxes requests files 's better posting without reading faq , though ! instance , people whose email addresses get mangled transit n't ftp probably need assistance obtaining faq files mathew
robert knowles p00261 psilink com subject amusing atheists agnostics reply timmbake mcl nntp posting host 127 0 0 1 organization kupajava , east krakatoa x mailer psilink dos \( 3 3 \) lines 19 date 18 apr 93 23 17 25 gmt bake timmons timmbake mcl ucsb edu bible lovers got chill could relax see atheism , funny pages could material atheism denies existence god logically bankrupt proof nonexistence \? 's joke nobody take sense atheism seriously perhaps perhaps made \? put away read faq learn something atheism get tangents
tclark uncecs edu \( thomas b clark \) subject help god court \? reply tclark med unc edu organization unc school medicine lines 11 n't think really question god courts mean request swearing , help god , always made request pick bible left hand hold right hand courts nc , least , always old new testament though hard imagine , picking bible swearing \( whatever \) god sometimes least religious influence court , nc , judge routinely everyone stand join prayer beginning every session 've thought sitting , i'm terribly anxious spend 30 days jail
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject nicknames organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 21 article 1993apr18 zeus calpoly edu , jmunch hertz elee calpoly edu \( john munch \) wrote mathew faq ca n't remember last name keith lie tally sig ryan kent finn cindy toes jim face sig tims simon clip theist umar reasonable khan rob argue g strom dave buckminster fuller maddi never useful post hausmann hey , nickname \? could take wrongly spelled surname \) cheers , kent sandvik sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
cwis unomaha edu \( mark \) subject amusing atheists agnostics organization university nebraska omaha lines 86 timmbake mcl ucsb edu \( bake timmons \) writes atheism denies existence god logically bankrupt proof nonexistence \? 's joke one favorite fallacious points atheism , e belief ca n't deny anything ca n't prove n't exist easily nailed showing infinite number beings conceivable observed exist , mean would believe \? according poster , must believe objects beings n't proved exist stop god \? \( could huge number beings identical ronald reagan except trivial differences , say one missing finger , one hair , live planets ca n't see \) reason one atheists bring none christians vested interest unknown beings exception god fine , people shoot foot mock idea god \? classic atheist fallacy shoot foot \? radical muslims , crusades , inquisition common examples atheists like bring marks religion weak ! fools take drivel seriously grand daddy human atrocities , movement \? twenty eight million people killed leadership , proudly featured atheism big difference , stalin n't say stood particular moral position \( e murder terrorism , etc \) opposite \( like religious movements \) , least honest killer \( support stalin attack viewpoint \) saying atheism supports murder violence one man tyrant atheist bad logic , look russians helped stalin n't atheists n't contradict point \? besides point assumes atheism relevant murdering people , common assumption atheists ca n't value life much theists \( n't support \) agnostics funny reasonable yet sense seem funny believe existence god unknowable every bit assumption atheism , though 's less arrogant pompous ah , 's another point n't get faq atheist n't hold positive view god n't exist , may non existence positive belief 's example strong atheism believe god exist positive belief weak atheism n't believe god negative belief , one never thought idea god whole life technically atheist , kind calling unreasonable let 's look way \( sets \) suppose given person huge set ideas represent capital letters people either believe ideas exist real objects santa , e \( \) person believing santa still idea santa notice even e \( \) another idea ! means lots cases christian \( , e \( \) yes , b , e \( b \) , g , e \( g \) yes \) g god atheist \( strong \) \( , e \( \) g , e \( g \) \) atheist \( weak \) \( , e \) e g set agnostic \( , g , e \( g \) , e' , \) people afraid say \? must another feature human nature sexy , trendy , word inspire much hate conflict 's blasphemous 's political fact often taken mean unsophisticated nietzsche said man would rather nonexistence way put humanity always prefers yes maybe useful survival trait , evolution drilled us take positions , even false ones bake timmons , iii
cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) subject christian morality organization university illinois urbana lines 51 vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) writes article news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) writes vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) writes actually , atheism based ignorance ignorance existence god n't fall atheists n't believe pride mistake know 's based ignorance , could n't wrong \? would wrong fall trap mentioned \? i'm wrong , god free time correct mistake continues , supposedly proclaiming undying love eternal soul , speaks volumes volumes speaks besides fact leaves choices \? trap , position tell n't believe god wish unless know motivations better , believe say earnestly searched god years never found definitely agree 's rather either side give psychological reasoning another 's belief mac bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com said queens could stay , blew bronx away , sank manhattan sea michael cobb wo n't raise taxes middle university illinois class pay programs champaign urbana bill clinton 3rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu new taxes spending cuts 'll still 310 billion dollar deficits
wilkins scubed com \( darin wilkins \) subject koresh god ! nntp posting host renoir organization cubed , division maxwell labs san diego ca lines 22 mathew mathew mantis co uk latest news seems koresh give 's finished writing sequel bible article 1 p00261 psilink com robert knowles p00261 psilink com writes writing seven seals something along lines 's already written first seven around 30 pages handed assistant ! would expect decent messiah built maybe koresh 2 0 come one heard asked fbi provide word processor anyone know koresh requested 0 \? 0 written \( owned \) mormons , theological implications requesting \( refusing \) 0 profound ! darin wilkins scubed scubed com president food
bdunn cco caltech edu \( brendan dunn \) subject go hell ! ! ! organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 28 nntp posting host punisher caltech edu article 93108 psuvm psu edu psuvm psu edu writes pitt vs penn state controversy deleted bringing back alt atheism relevance guy says 're going hell n't sufficient cause bitch system operator worst , 's bad etiquette \( unless really believe someone using account without knowledge permission , actually law \) patrick saxton pitt second rate school second rate city psuvm psu edu anon pts ecl psu edu ob atheism batman trust would n't sufficient cause bitch system operator guy saying atheists going hell point recently many messages posted address messages posted different newsgroup , apparent intent provoking readers particular group , along fact posts written caps , makes posts suspect whoever using account using intended user , consider appropriate action someone else seems possibility , also reason report get many posts flavor one started thread seen posts groups user considering action brendan
bdunn cco caltech edu \( brendan dunn \) subject amusing atheists agnostics organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 8 nntp posting host punisher caltech edu thanks whoever posted wonderful parody people post without reading faq ! laughing good 5 minutes parts faq n't mentioned \? think might one two please n't tell n't joke i'm ready hear yet brendan
kempmp phoenix oulu fi \( petri pihko \) subject morality constant \( biblical rape \) organization university oulu , finland x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 187 bill conner \( bil okcforum osrhe edu \) wrote couple things post others thread little confusing atheist one things understood processes nature exclusively definition include atheists \( see faq \) however , \( one \) think need invoke divine spiritual explanations makes big difference claim things understood natural processes , claim observations require us postulate divine intervention , anything spiritual , matter humans omnipotent , neither science however , science one advantage theology n't self correcting , nature judge delightful see scientific inquiry revealing self consistent , simple picture universe science longer bunch separate branches , one particle physics psychology aspect life , universe , safe stern stony eye even consciousness need recourse describe explain anything purpose direction event beyond required physics , chemistry , biology , etc everything random , nothing actually , vs philosophical question , science cannot say whether whole thing actually somehow think question meaning , far individual human beings go apparent free illusion , appear perspective bill , say sure whether free \? would also include human intelligence course products nothing requiring life evolve acquire intelligence , 's happy accident maybe tell \? seems intelligence useful history earth one species able control one third whole biosphere \? still result numerous happy accidents genetic machinery blindly preserves even machinery result principle systems start replicating survive , n't n't make \( recommended reading \) atheist , event preferred another said less value another naturalistic sense , thought event value whose perspective \? value events things subjectively , perspective nature values , perspective values arise awareness subjective perspective , easy assume people also , think would like position , eventually discover golden rule morality necessarily gift heavens , fact , may product evolution perhaps aware sense identity helpful , allows us play roles others make us respect others seem identity , bill , ever read aristotle \? try \( sp \) starters atheist judge value \? basis criticizing values bible purposes imputed god \? grounds behavior condemned \? seems , judging values motivate others action , standard conduct measured , nature serve purpose \? law nature invoke establish values c lewis tells us argument main reason abandoned atheism became christian argument severely flawed values , golden rule , rational basis others , like basic idea wanting live , probably roots way brains wired lewis ignored real possiblity natural selection could also favour behaviour , morality well indeed , humans evolved better better building using tools , also became better killing logical necessity evolution could favour knew use tools , one 's people bible reveals quite nicely morality early jews beyond simple set rules hold people together , one god god care much people nations time nt , things quite different jews rule empire , could longer simply ignore gentiles new situation required new morality , along new religion born \( mutation meme pool \) since every event entirely exclusively physical event , difference could possibly make anyone , religious otherwise , meaning value way atheist object behaviour admit objection entirely subjective \( \) n't like 's value judgement must disclaimer nothing matter personal opinion carries weight absolute sense looks like n't bothered read philosophy whenever observer , subjective point view , may value existence happiness \( even result physical event \) , 's happiness , , observer comes think absolutely objective sense , , without observers subjects , moral judgments lose meaning possible value simply exist without point view includes gods , , values personal judgments , absolute truths , since truths exist fact people deliberately want hurt others manifestation way fought existence becoming social beings think value others' existence morality property humans alone chimps , dolphins many species show great care dolphins sometimes saved humans drowning , good deed indeed n't like god told people says nothing god god 's commands , says electrical event nervous system created emotional state mind coupled pre existing thought set form reaction objections seem well founded due way 've conditioned truth content whole intellectual landscape illusion , virtual reality last statement logically follow fact , every reason believe thoughts model reality well , senses convey reliable information still logical possibility , likely one continuously mixing two different views subjective point view \( share \) objective point view , exist observer thinker , personal , point view matter whether point view result physical events , cease subjective non observers non point view , values exist neither pain , pleasure , beauty , love things inherently subjective , god wants wives submit husbands , even make leap faith unknown , wants punish us n't , disagree morals think morals come supreme remove morals means make , machine without single thought god gave us morality judge , disagree , fault free replace morals cannot see point giving someone moral system disagrees one 's get mad god must , excluded discussion values , right , wrong , , evil , etc cannot participate opinion bible weight whatsoever neither opinion god , matter cannot understand subjective opinion thing made matter way less credible opinion thing made something else bill , take note absolute values must independent , including gods god subjective viewpoint , point view , morals petri ' '' petri pihko kem pmp mathematics truth ! ' ' ' ' ' pihatie 15 c finou oulu fi physics rule ' ' ' sf 90650 oulu kempmp game ' finland phoenix oulu fi chemistry game
jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) subject yet rushdie islamic law organization boston university physics department lines 60 article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) writes article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) writes article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) writes refuting nothing simply telling see , childish propaganda nothing refuted bcci islamic bank , post nothing islamic banks tiring infantile garbage , simply evaluated could maybe flesh bit \? miss full 's content virtue atheism \? may difficulty seeing light head ass suggest making sure case posting 's time lesson debate , gregg yeah , right begin included text vice ! news tek com ! uunet ! psinntp ! ! usenet sun apr 18 10 01 11 pdt 1993 noticed post topic soc religion islam since topic bcci islamic bank come , left one mention bcci bank called bcci adapted koran rules banking bibliography bennett , neil bcci adapted koran rules banking times august 13 , 1991 , let 's see guy writes piece title implies something case must , \? support position intend anyone respect , gregg questions \? even managed include reference head firmly engaged ass 's excuse \? supports nothing reason believe piece anything another anti islamic slander job respect titles , real content look article want , true tell bcci islamic bank seeing i'm spending time responding propaganda \( responding little sub thread \) really n't feel deep need make statements effect propaganda false someone wants discuss issue seriously 'd glad real discussion , providing references , etc gregg
fraser sfu ca \( nancy patricia o'connor \) subject amusing atheists agnostics organization simon fraser university , burnaby , b c , canada lines 11 timmbake mcl ucsb edu \( bake timmons \) writes rule 4 n't mix apples oranges say extermination mongols worse stalin \? khan conquered people unsympathetic cause atrocious stalin killed millions people loved worshipped atheist state ! ! anyone worse \? 're right david koresh claimed christian
pmoloney maths tcd ie \( paul moloney \) subject thoughts keywords dan bissell organization somewhere twentieth century lines 14 bissda saturn wwc edu \( dan lawrence bissell \) writes niether lunatic would entire nation drawn someone crazy find encyclopedia volume h look hitler , adolf many people germans p moorcockpratchettdenislearydelasoulu2iainmbanksneworderheathersbatmanpjorourke clive p u l l n e come , let us retract foreskin misconception james trinity college dublin apply wire brush enlightenment geoffm brownbladerunnersugarcubeselectronicblaylockpowersspikeleekatebushhamcornpizza
pmoloney maths tcd ie \( paul moloney \) subject pope jewish ! organization somewhere twentieth century lines 47 west next02cville wam umd edu \( stilgar \) writes pope jewish guess 're right , always thought thing head fancy hat , jewish \( n't remember name \) 's clear \( clear mud \) \( crl nmsu edu \) source ap vatican , home genetic misfits \? michael gillow , noted , revealed unusual data working undercover vatican past 18 years \( tm \) actually advanced bone spur , reveals gillow report gillow , secretly studied workings vatican since returning vietnam wheel chair , first approached scientific community theory late 1950 's whole hat thing , cover vatican n't want catholic community \( tm \) realize leader nearly 8 kilograms bone tissue top skull , notes gillow report whole laboratories vatican experiment tissue transplants bone marrow experiments started genetic fluke mid 1400 's scientifically engineered bred whole bone transplant idea started mid sixties inspired doctor timothy leary deer bone cells small white rats gillow quick point assassination attempt pope john paul ii disappearance dr leary public eye becomes time replace pope , says gillow , old pope replacement pope locked padded chamber butt heads much like male fighting dominance herd victor earned privilege boys p moorcockpratchettdenislearydelasoulu2iainmbanksneworderheathersbatmanpjorourke clive p u l l n e come , let us retract foreskin misconception james trinity college dublin apply wire brush enlightenment geoffm brownbladerunnersugarcubeselectronicblaylockpowersspikeleekatebushhamcornpizza
i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) subject free moral agency jeff clark organization technical university braunschweig , germany lines 30 article healta 136 saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu \( tammy r healy \) writes \( deletion \) also said , millions suffer adam ee \? seems pretty sick way going creating universe i'm gonna respond giving small theology lesson forgive , used theology major first , believe planet involved cosmic struggle great controversy christ satan \( borrowed book title \) god consider interests entire universe making decisions \( deletion \) universe created way , tell less let one one 's creatures likes others \? definitions , god created satan full knowledge would happen including every choice satan explain us free , goes along omniscience \? n't god know everything would happen even created world \? concerned tyrant noone would care everything fine \? whole idea comes possibility abuse power , something god introduced according description \? way , sure read faq \? especially part preaching \? benedikt
sfu ca \( nancy patricia o'connor \) subject pope jewish ! organization simon fraser university , burnaby , b c , canada lines 39 article 1993apr15 wam umd edu west next02cville wam umd edu \( stilgar \) writes last night , watching 2a rebroadcast jerry springer \( talk show \) heard thought 12 year old racist focus show kids hatred jewish religion , stuff deleted interesting \( scary \) \? went say jews killed god , end time races would go homelands \( course , would remain america , new jeruselem , says gen 2 \? \? \? \( another kid said \) rest races would go home \) great battle plague whatever revel says would happen , jews would killed interesting thing roomate catholic , kjv bible desk opened began search quoted passages \( gen , rev , john \) look , could n't find said saw n't know saw show back , heard kids quote bible justify racist claims , looked quote jesus hating jews \( since jesus jew , curiousity claim \) passage \( sorry ca n't recall passage exactly \) jesus condemning pharisees corrupt course , pharisees jewish , n't jews whole jesus condemning , powers nancy o'connor psychology undergrad opinions express simon fraser university , burnaby , b c canada
chrisb seachg com \( chris blask \) subject silly question x tianity reply chrisb seachg com \( chris blask \) organization sea change corporation , mississauga , ontario , canada lines 44 cco caltech edu \( andrew tong \) writes mccullou snake2 cs wisc edu \( mark mccullough \) writes question 2 attitude god character seems awfully proud christianity tells people humble 's deal \? well , god pretty much right proud mean , created , n't right proud job \? course , people n't much right proud accomplished match god 's accomplishments , anyways \? abilities compare god 's 're worm earth , quote pascal god , created universe , would n't little self organizing cell tiny planet started thinking great awesome \? unfortunately logic falls apart quick perfect insulted threatened actions lesser creature actually offspring \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? powerful perfect feel either proud offended \? anything capable aware relationship every aspect every particle universe every moment time simultaneously able understand cause every action every planet well , actually , think , seems kinda odd god would care earth ok , bad example amazing fact care , apparently , willing make grand sacrifices ensure happiness powerful , owner everything universe makes great sacrifices makes great headline n't make sense sacrifice \? go could n't get back \? gave something , 'd give \? chris guys fun , i'm key west ! !
bcash crchh410 nosubdomain nodomain \( brian cash \) subject n't beleive either nntp posting host crchh410 organization bnr , inc lines 9 article 1993apr13 818 antioch edu , antioch edu writes stopped believing well , long invention technology god ahhh go back alt belong ! brian
bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) subject genocide caused theism evidence \? organization tektronix inc , beaverton , lines 26 article horus ap mchp sni de frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes n't see anything special theism general makes particular hazard \( say , stupidity , anarchy , patriotism \) course , depends religion , see nothing believing gods entails even promotes , genocide , etc emphasis general , course 're correct , since n't really said anything restrict observations practiced religions , lots examples god mandated genocide ask canaanites point believe god , believe ordered eliminate entire race , likely make attempt , ok past , could surely ok present bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com said queens could stay , blew bronx away , sank manhattan sea
bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) subject free moral agency jeff clark organization tektronix inc , beaverton , lines 21 article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) writes reason like controversy post , issues polarities evil good artificial constructs , fall apart closer inspection look notion constant struggle evil good forces , sounds like metaphor people assume without closer inspection info please i'm well exposed ideas bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com said queens could stay , blew bronx away , sank manhattan sea
bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) subject political atheists \? organization tektronix inc , beaverton , lines 34 article 1993apr15 975 news wesleyan edu ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu \( scott sauyet \) writes gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu writes fight wars land chimps almost human keith could \? last message mr schneider , 's three days old ! final words \? \( many would find appropriate \? \) finals got way \? christians leary atheist spokesman \( seems , \) , removed course , keith busy explaining fellow captives n't really persecuted , since \( \) feeding , resistance part would viewed trouble making understand make bit fuss god trust forehead , though bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com said queens could stay , blew bronx away , sank manhattan sea
bcash crchh410 nosubdomain nodomain \( brian cash \) subject new member nntp posting host crchh410 organization bnr , inc lines 47 article portal hq videocart com , dfuller portal hq videocart com \( dave fuller \) writes hello started reading group today , think going large participant daily postings liked section faq constructing logical arguments well done atheist , try turn people atheists try figure people believe way n't much care different view comes could wrong willing admit possibility something religious followers dont seem capability welcome aboard ! notice alot posts bobby anybody ever respond posts \? always falls back argument \( think answered question , \) religion followed cause bad right event explained human done name religion , mean actually followed religion always point ideal say n't followed ca n't reason event really way argue , bother sure , may get upset answer blind supported factually win every time little argument n't think postings direct response one responses postings spouted fact atheists fools evil seeing islam would leave pro con arguments islam fred rice , level headed seems know subject , anyway happy aboard ! know going welcome \? ! \? dave fuller dfuller portal hq videocart com brian
bcash crchh410 nosubdomain nodomain \( brian cash \) subject free moral agency nntp posting host crchh410 organization bnr , inc lines 24 article house helios , house helios usq edu au \( ron house \) writes marshall csugrad cs vt edu \( kevin marshall \) writes healta saturn wwc edu \( tammy r healy \) writes might think oh yeah n't god destroy bud got point millions ages suffering along life \? answer know satan made claim way better god 's god allowing satan chance prove way better god 's know brought come ! god allowing wishes one individual well billions \? seriously doubt read bible twice , never got impression god satan working sort cooperative arrangement read book job oh , bet brian
bcash crchh410 nosubdomain nodomain \( brian cash \) subject thoughts nntp posting host crchh410 organization bnr , inc lines 4 i'm sold ! sign \? brian next book charles manson lord , lunatic , liar
marshall csugrad cs vt edu \( kevin marshall \) subject thoughts organization virginia tech computer science dept , blacksburg , va lines 72 nntp posting host csugrad cs vt edu keywords dan bissell bissda saturn wwc edu \( dan lawrence bissell \) writes reasons would n't liar follows would die lie \? would n't people able tell liar \? people gathered around kept , many gathered hearing seeing someone healed call fool , believe heal people anyone dies cause runs risk dying lie people able tell liar , well , 've since beginning civilization david messiah , bet could found plenty believers jesus hardly first claim faith healer , n't first witnessed sets apart \? niether lunatic would entire nation drawn someone crazy doubtful , fact rediculous example anyone drawn david koresh obviously fool , logical people see right away rubbish nations followed crazies , liars , , throughout history hitler , , , khomeini , , stalin , papa doc , nixon come mind century koresh non issue therefore since n't liar lunatic , must real thing take discrete mathematics formal logic course flaws logic everywhere i'm sure others tell , read faq ! things note fulfilled loads prophecies psalms , isaiah elsewhere 24 hrs alone betrayal crucifixion n't bible moment , next time write use course , believe bible first something written bible mean true , age tome plus lack external supporting evidence makes less credible quote bible future , try back quote supporting evidence otherwise , get flamed mercilessly n't think people understand christian certainly see lot churches rather think way life , total sacrafice everything god 's sake loved us enough die save us hey ca n't , god inspires us turn lives 's tuff people n't want , real christian would something strong persevere like weight lifting guitar playing , drums , whatever takes time n't rush one day , christianity whole life going church week , helping poor people box everything time units work time , sports , tv , social life god boxes carried us boxes created like weight lifting guitar playing , eh \? n't know define world total , would imagine total sacrafice sp everything god 's sake would involve time commitment correct tendency box everything time units would explain one god sports \( hehehe \) television \? kevin marshall computer science department virginia tech marshall csugrad cs vt edu blacksburg , virginia \( 703 \) 232 6529
a137490 lehtori cc tut fi \( aario sami \) subject genocide caused atheism organization tampere university technology , computing centre lines 16 distribution sfnet nntp posting host cc tut fi kmr4 1466 po cwru edu kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) writes wait said humans rarely reasonable n't contradict atheism , everything explained logic reason \? contradiction atheism proves false bobby mozumder proving existence allah , 2 anybody bobby 's post said something like n't know men women islamic countries maybe 's atheists killing female children \? 's personal favorite ! sami aario see measure atom \? yet explode a137490 cc tut fi one sunlight comprised many atoms ' stupid minds ! stupid , stupid ! eros plan 9 outer space disclaimer n't agree eros
madhaus netcom com \( maddi hausmann \) subject thoughts keywords dan bissell organization society putting things top things lines 28 1 read faqs \? 2 , read faqs 3 yes , would n't posted drivel lord , liar lunatic argument false even disprove liar lunatic \( n't \) , eliminated possibilities , mistaken , , misunderstood arbitrarily set three three possibilities without considering others 4 read good book rhetoric critical thinking think lord , liar , lunatic discussion example good argument , need learning 5 read faqs , especially constructing logical argument ignore instructions peril leaves open righteous flaming maddi hausmann madhaus netcom com centigram communications corp san jose california 408 428 3553 kids , please n't try home remember , post professionally
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject slavery \( sex allowed marriage \) organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 18 oh , sounds nice ! everyone helping always smiling fluffy bunnies everywhere wake ! people like seems evident history society succeeded rely upon goodwill people n't obvious places like iran even greedy people society going attracted positions power \? sounds like recipe disaster looking historical evidence islamic states n't survive agree , people people , even might start islamic revolution create perfect state , takes time internal corruption destroy ground rules cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject slavery \( sex allowed marriage \) organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 16 article 1993apr14 monu6 cc monash edu au , darice yoyo cc monash edu au \( fred rice \) wrote anyhow , basis apparent success islamic banks , seems statement zero interest economy cannot survive today 's world may bit premature i'm sure zero economical systems survive small scale , co ops islamic invention , co operatives working around world however systems n't stand corruption large scale operation actually , nothing could handle human greed , imho even allah \) cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject new member organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 20 article portal hq videocart com , dfuller portal hq videocart com \( dave fuller \) wrote right event explained human done name religion , mean actually followed religion always point ideal say n't followed ca n't reason event really way argue , bother sure , may get upset answer blind supported factually win every time little argument n't think postings direct response one hey ! glad serious constructive contributors newsgroup agree 100 statement , might argue bobby , still get , best thing spare mental resources discuss interesting issues cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject genocide caused atheism organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 27 article horus ap mchp sni de , frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) wrote \( 1 \) term hero worship mean anything \? yes , worshipping jesus super saver indeed hero worshipping grand scale worshipping lenin make life pleasant working people , eh , somehow similar , \( 2 \) understand gods defined supernatural , merely superhuman notion lenin borderline supernatural insights change world , n't communist god , man gave presents kids christmas actually , agree things always relative , ca n't direct mapping movement cause however , notion communist russia somewhat typical atheist country something robertson , et rest would believe atheists true unbelievers , huh \? \) n't know , fanatics indeed cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject thoughts organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 24 article bissda 4 734849678 saturn wwc edu , bissda saturn wwc edu \( dan lawrence bissell \) wrote first want start right say i'm christian makes sense one read tony campollo 's book liar , lunatic , real thing \? \( might little title , writes book anyway part effort destroy christianity , process became christian seems n't understand anything realities , liar , lunatic real thing narrow view possibilities jesus message sigh , seems religion makes mind brain filter anything fit personal scheme anyone thinks possibilities jesus bound classical lewis notion , lunatic indeed bound become christian cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject genocide caused atheism organization sgi lines 38 distribution world nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article horus ap mchp sni de , frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes article sp fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes article horus ap mchp sni de , frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes article fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes forget origin quote , gotta use words talk atheist one lacks belief gods , yes \? , 's entirely plausible atheist could dig lenin lennon extent might considered worship , still atheist anything else seems ask following question would regard ardent nazi republican , simply germany longer kaiser \? , 's based false dichotomy options present , course , point ca n't simply divide world atheists non atheists basis god belief care belief supernatural deity , nothing say behaviour , belief supernatural criterion start talking behaviour , someone 's led bad people bad things assume worried area , care whether someone sceptical , critical autonomous one hand , gullible , excitable easily led would say tendency worship tyrants ideologies indicates person easily led whether worship belief supernatural hero rather earthly one seems beside point jon
decay cbnewsj cb att com \( dean kaflowitz \) subject thoughts organization distribution na lines 13 article edm gocart twisto compaq com , edm twisto compaq com \( ed mccreary \) writes thu , 15 apr 1993 04 54 38 gmt , bissda saturn wwc edu \( dan lawrence bissell \) said dlb first want start right say i'm christian dlb makes sense one read tony campollo 's book liar , dlb lunatic , real thing \? \( might little title , dlb writes book anyway part effort destroy christianity , dlb process became christian go friendly folks christian central , come save
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject islamic genocide organization sgi lines 48 distribution world nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article pen horus ap mchp sni de , frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes article sp fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes rate , even interpretation correct imply killings religously motivated , original poster 's seeming claim tricky , tricky i'm replying blanket claim religiously motivated n't irish catholics south kill irish protestants south , yet precisely history behind think killings religously motivated ignore rather obvious matter british occupation , partition misguided patriotism sides false dichotomy claimed killing religiously motivated , i'm saying 's wrong i'm saying every killing religiously motivate , spelled detail problems fault along religious divide historical roots thing catholic country partitioned populated protestant one killing soldiers civilians supposedly motivated patriotism , civil rights issues , revenge 's difficult understand insanity hard understand religion need invoked explain anyone else see contradiction paragraph \? claim killings n religously motivated means church believers always history ca n't face rewrite 're attacking different claim claim ira terrorist plants bomb motive greater glory god sorry , frank , put quotes words posting horus ap mchp sni de n't tell us 's different claim longer stand behind original claim , say jon
sieferme stein u washington edu \( eric sieferman \) subject n't beleive either organization university washington , seattle lines 15 nntp posting host stein u washington edu article 1993apr13 818 antioch edu antioch edu writes stopped believing well , long invention technology god n't listen guy , 's crank first , business one true god tolerated rest us , gotten completely hand besides , really n't bad people stop believing 's much relaxing mortals n't always begging favors zeus
a137490 lehtori cc tut fi \( aario sami \) subject genocide caused atheism organization tampere university technology , computing centre lines 48 distribution sfnet nntp posting host cc tut fi 1993apr9 ultb isc rit edu snm6394 ultb isc rit edu \( n mozumder \) writes article kmr4 po cwru edu kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) writes state know green marble closed box , never seen , evidence existance would guilty deceit , even , fact , green marble inside question whether green marble inside , irrelevent go ahead play marbles love , love , love ! ! wish could fit sig file ! \( someone keeping list bobby quotes , sure include one ! \) stating unproven opinion fact , deceit , knowingly falsehood lie think unproven opinion \? said something fact think opinion accept , 's right \? flat earthers state earth flat fact n't accept , think 's unproven opinion , think round earthers right better evidence flat earthers although ca n't prove god n't exist , arguments used support god 's existence weak often self contradictory , i'm going believe god unless someone comes gives reason believe god absolutely ca n't ignore ago , read interesting book fellow called von , proved wildest things , last page , wrote something like prove n't \? certainly ca n't , i'm going believe , based proof really questionable stuff , old myths \( called evidence \) far , atheism n't made kill anyone , i'm regarded quite agreeable fellow , really \) sami aario see measure atom \? yet explode a137490 cc tut fi one sunlight comprised many atoms ' stupid minds ! stupid , stupid ! eros plan 9 outer space disclaimer n't agree eros
david rice ofa123 fidonet org subject islamic authority sic women x sender newtout 0 08 feb 23 1993 lines 62 kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) kmr4 po cwru edu rush leland stanford edu 1993apr5 leland stanford edu readers joined , guy real \? i'm simply amazed kr sadly yes n't loose sleep old kr fun , basically harmless kr least , n't work ny city n't find hard believe ole really believes hate ignorant writes frightening thought , people even worse ! say feminism equals superiority men laughable long n't proceed pick rifle start shoot women preemptive strike aka canada slaughter occured years ago , men killing women nothing new islamic fundamentalists better excuse \( qu'ran \) vancouver sun , thursday , october 4 , 1990 john davidson , canadian press montreal perhaps 's letter five year old daughter shocks hope one day old enough understand happened parents , wrote patrick prevost loved mother passion went far hatred police found piece paper near prevost 's body apartment northeast montreal say 39 year old mechanic committed suicide killing wife , parent , 31 couple separated month woman gone apartment talk getting money food violent quarrel broke prevost attacked wife kitchen knife , cutting throat , police said latest 13 women slain husband lover quebec last five weeks five children also slain result domestic battles last year quebec alone , 29 women slain husbands one third cases across canada , according statistics canadian centre justice rest article say women somehow better one stay home raise child also laughable women traditionally done hard labor support family , often men many cultures , throughout history seems takes least two adults raise child , stay home ! maximus 2 01wb
subject feminism islam , kmagnacca eagle wesleyan edu organization wesleyan university nntp posting host wesleyan edu lines 30 article 1993apr14 ultb isc rit edu , snm6394 ultb isc rit edu \( n mozumder \) writes article 1993apr11 1 eagle wesleyan edu kmagnacca eagle wesleyan edu writes 's way around via hadith , state silence taken mean yes women may speak judge , must conduct marriage , 's false hadith , contradicts verses quran , says women may testify speak judge hadiths declared false contradict quran hadiths n't written revelation life prophet , may contain errors way tell false hadith true one contradicts quran \? relates something n't explicitly spelled quran \? also , quran n't written life muhammed either n't long , 20 years still long enough shift verses around karl lastly , come china hope touch see fulfilling lifelong ambition life ever dropping acid great wall duke pink floyd lie still lie even 3 8 billion people believe
frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization siemens nixdorf ag lines 28 nntp posting host d012s658 ap mchp sni de article 1993apr15 abo fi mandtbacka finabo abo fi \( mats andtbacka \) writes 1qie61 fkt horus ap mchp sni de frank d012s658 uucp writes article ursa bear com halat pooh bears \( jim halat \) writes i'm one people know word objective means put next word morality assume idiom cannot defined separate terms give try objective morality morality built objective values objective values \? please specific , importantly , motivate 'll take wild guess say freedom objectively valuable base assumption everyone world deprived utterly freedom \( every act contrary \) , almost would want complain therefore take assert believe freedom valuable , almost everyone see , every bit absurd assert raining rainy day take candidate objective value , necessary condition objective morality objective values exist frank o'dwyer 'i'm hatching that' odwyer sse ie hens , evelyn conlon
jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) subject inimitable rushdie \( anecdote islam organization boston university physics department lines 63 article 1993apr14 monu6 cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au \( fred rice \) writes article ra nrl navy mil khan itd itd nrl navy mil \( umar khan \) writes borrowed book library khomeini 's fatwa etc found useful passage regarding legitimacy fatwa also common knowledge prescribed islamic law , sentence applicable jurisdiction islamic law applies moreover , sentence passed islamic court executed state machinery due process law even islamic countries , let alone non muslim lands , individuals cannot take law hands sentence passed , must carried state usual machinery individuals indeed becomes criminal act take law one 's hands punish offender unless process self defence moreover , offender must brought notice court court decide deal law applies equally muslim well non muslim territories agree fully statement precisely meant previous statements islam anarchist law despite law applicable hence , clarification islamic scholars , muslims britain imam khomeini 's fatwa made clear since islamic law applicable britain , compulsory punishment cannot applied disagree conclusion islamic law muslims , wherever may conclusion strictly follow foregoing , conclusion fatwa cannot enforced according islamic law however , agree punishment cannot applied rushdie even well founded wow , looks like islamic viewpoint khomeini 's fatwa constitutes criminal act perhaps could even go limb call khomeini criminal basis certainly putting price head rushdie britain criminal act according islamic law anyhow , think understood knowledgeable muslims khomeini 's fatwa islamically illegitimate , least basis others , others posted \( particularly umar khan gregg jaeger , think \) go say even punishment constituted fatwa islamic law according understanding yes gregg
\( rashid \) subject yet rushdie islamic law nntp posting host 47 252 4 179 organization nh lines 76 article 1993apr14 monu6 cc monash edu au , darice yoyo cc monash edu au \( fred rice \) wrote understanding generally agreed upon ulema islamic scholars islamic law applies islamic country , uk furthermore , take law one 's hands criminal act , matters state , individuals nevertheless , khomeini offered cash prize people take law hands something , understanding , islamic law yes , also understanding majority islamic laws however , believe also certain legal rulings , five schools law \( 4 sunni 1 \) , levelled muslim non muslims , within outside al islam know apostasy \( accompanied active , persistent , open hostility islam \) falls category law know historically , apostasy rarely punished , let alone death penalty understanding khomeini 's ruling based law apostasy \( alone \) well known rushdie apostate long wrote offending novel certainly precedent qur'an , hadith , islamic history death penalties apostasy believe charge levelled rushdie fasad ruling applies within outside domain islamic state carried individuals reward offered khomeini individuals within iran stuff deleted also , think issue seem assume khomeini 's fatwa issued due distribution book understanding khomeini 's fatwa issued response writing publishing book view correct , viewpoint rushdie sentenced crime progress incorrect would concur thrust fatwa \( remember \) levelled author assisted publication book however , charge fasad encompass number lesser charges remember diplomatic relations broke britain iran fatwa iran stressed condemnation author , removal book circulation two preliminary conditions resolving crisis correct point banning book main thrust behind fatwa islamic charges fasad levelled people , books rushdie situation followed iran several months issuance fatwa rushdie went media , presenting lone knight guarding sacred values secular democracy foolish concerns people crazy enough actually hold religious beliefs sacred flames controversy boost image push book , everywhere media muslim demonstrators several countries killed protesting book rushdie appeared momentarily concerned , climbed back media horse attack muslims defend sacred rights point fatwa fasad issued fatwa levelled person rushdie actions rushdie feed situation contribute ruling book remains circulation independant author publishers fatwa person rushdie encompasses actions well crime certainly crime progress \( many levels \) played \( played \) full view media p i'm sure think charge shatim also applies rushdie may encompassed umbrella fasad ruling
\( rashid \) subject yet rushdie islamic law nntp posting host 47 252 4 179 organization nh lines 34 twelve imams , considered incapable error sin \? khomeini supports view twelve heresy reasons gave would happy discuss issue 12 imams , although preference would move discussion another newsgroup feel philosophy religion group would appropriate topic deeply embedded world view islam esoteric teachings prophet \( \) heresy enter except see islam religion nominally \( \) concerned metaphysical substance man 's nature good introductory book \( fact one best introductory books islam general \) 's fundamental 's islamic thought god , man , universe press , translated r campbell truly beautiful book follow book \( find decent translation \) station master author think also goes title master 's small book really transcription lecture author introduction beautiful psalms islam translated william c \( available trust great britain \) also excellent introduction subject books university library imagine well stocked university library posts , seem fairly well versed sunni thought seek know shi'ite thought knowledgeable shi'ite authors well least much respect due charge heresy levelled salaam laikum
davec silicon csci edu \( dave \) subject genocide caused atheism organization california state university , san lines 45 nntp posting host silicon csci edu article horus ap mchp sni de frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes article fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes article horus ap mchp sni de , frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes stuff deleted newsgroup large , deal recognise happened former communist russia much bearing validity atheism doings theists validity theism 's zip , nada , none fallacy known ad hominem , 's old one holy faq , book constructing logical argument \) apart making lot sense , wrong atheist creed taught communist name atheism clearly theistic creeds instructions act theists conflict one another , 's another issue lack instructions act might also evil 's like saying , since mathematics includes instructions act , evil atheism moral system , speak instructions act \? atheism simply lack belief god plenty theists think one could argue case atheism causes whatever n't like former ussr much validity theism causes genocide say , validity think argument particular theist system causes genocide made argument atheism causes genocide theist systems contain instructions act , one shown cause genocide however , since atheist set instructions null set , show atheism causes genocide \? david \( davec silicon csci edu \) scores thousands human insects ready moment 's notice reveal god every possible subject george bernard shaw scores thousands human insects ready moment 's notice reveal god every possible subject george bernard shaw
subject atheists \? ! kmagnacca eagle wesleyan edu organization wesleyan university nntp posting host wesleyan edu lines 22 article netcom com , bskendig netcom com \( brian kendig \) writes c quotes deleted really looks like people idea means atheist bobby mozumder clones world thought well , explains things posted soc religion islam attached quote bobby effect atheists lying evil scum , asked commonly held idea among muslims got response asking unknown , guess karl lastly , come china hope touch see fulfilling lifelong ambition life ever dropping acid great wall duke pink floyd lie still lie even 3 8 billion people believe
sieferme stein u washington edu \( eric sieferman \) subject thoughts organization university washington , seattle lines 75 nntp posting host stein u washington edu keywords dan bissell article bissda 4 734849678 saturn wwc edu bissda saturn wwc edu \( dan lawrence bissell \) writes appears walla walla college fill role alt atheist allegheny college fills alt fan dan quayle first want start right say i'm christian makes sense one read tony campollo 's book liar , lunatic , real thing \? \( might little title , writes book anyway part effort destroy christianity , process became christian converts xtianity tendency excessively darken pre xtian past , frequently falsely anyone effort destroy xtianity suffering deep , defect cured religious conversion arguements uses summing book whether jesus god know many n't believe , listen different perspective something gain listening others say different perspective \? different perspective \? \? ! ! ! book says jesus either liar , crazy \( modern day koresh \) actually said \( sigh ! \) perhaps big j mistaken claims perhaps normally insightful , days perhaps many \( \? \) statements attributed jesus made , put mouth later authors possibilities abound surely , someone seriously examining question could come decent list possible alternatives , unless task serious examination question \( much less destroying xtianity \) rather religious reasons would n't liar follows would die lie \? many germans died nazism \? many russians died name dictatorship \? many americans died make world safe democracy silly question ! would n't people able tell liar \? people gathered around kept , many gathered hearing seeing someone healed call fool , believe heal people everyone performs healing god \? niether lunatic would entire nation drawn someone crazy 's probably hard draw entire nation unless crazy doubtful , fact rediculous example anyone drawn david koresh obviously fool , logical people see right away therefore since n't liar lunatic , must real thing anyone convinced laughable logic deserves xtian things note fulfilled loads prophecies psalms , isaiah elsewhere 24 hrs alone betrayal crucifixion n't bible moment , next time write use n't bother many prophecies fulfilled eyes xtian apologists , distort meaning isaiah ot books
a137490 lehtori cc tut fi \( aario sami \) subject genocide caused atheism organization tampere university technology , computing centre lines 37 distribution sfnet nntp posting host cc tut fi deletions 1993apr13 ultb isc rit edu snm6394 ultb isc rit edu \( n mozumder \) writes really n't think imagine like infinite first , infinity mathematical concept created humans explain certain things certain way n't know actually applies reality , n't know anything world infinite would n't able comprehend reality like programmer , would require infinite memory whatever reality continuous based small units units n't know universe actually continuous continuum another mathematical concept \( based infinity \) used explain things certain way humans know infinite call something beyond numbers call endless , know pretty good idea infinity 's man made concept , like many man made concepts , evolved time ancient greeks different understanding , call allah infinitely powerful , knowledgeable , etc , yet cannot imagine allah actually , cannot imagine like infinite n't even know infinity applies reality sami aario see measure atom \? yet explode a137490 cc tut fi one sunlight comprised many atoms ' stupid minds ! stupid , stupid ! eros plan 9 outer space disclaimer n't agree eros
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject inimitable rushdie organization sgi lines 24 nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article bu edu , jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) writes article fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes amazed find difficult grasp people justify death threats rushdie claim born muslim \? empty rhetoric amazed inability understand saying find difficult grasp people justify death threats find amazing ability consider abstract questions isolation seem believe principles consequence abuse must hate physics ! 're closer might imagine certainly despised living soviet regime purported organize society according fondly imagined objective conclusions marxist n't hate physics long clown n't start trying control life assumption interchangeable atoms , rather individual human beings jon
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject little satanic organization sgi lines 16 nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article mimsy umd edu , mangoe cs umd edu \( charley wingate \) writes jeff west writes claimed people took time translate bible would also take time get right less couple generations 've given ample proof \( agreed \) new versions tends step modern translations said people took time copy text correctly translations present completely different issues read papers texts different versions ot texts misunderstand \? jon
a137490 lehtori cc tut fi \( aario sami \) subject note bobby organization tampere university technology , computing centre lines 14 distribution sfnet nntp posting host cc tut fi 1993apr10 ultb isc rit edu snm6394 ultb isc rit edu \( n mozumder \) writes insults atheistic genocide totally unintentional atheism , anything happen , good bad , including genocide know \? 've conveniently defined theist someone wrong , 've defined people wrong atheists statement circular \( mention \) , , , value sami aario see measure atom \? yet explode a137490 cc tut fi one sunlight comprised many atoms ' stupid minds ! stupid , stupid ! eros plan 9 outer space disclaimer n't agree eros
\( rashid \) subject inimitable rushdie \( anecdote islam nntp posting host 47 252 4 179 organization nh lines 31 article 1993apr14 monu6 cc monash edu au , darice yoyo cc monash edu au \( fred rice \) wrote article ra nrl navy mil khan itd itd nrl navy mil \( umar khan \) writes stuff deleted demanding , khomeini ilk publicly come clean show proof islamic law apostacy death similar form freedom conscience five schools law \( best knowledge \) support death sentence apostasy accompanied open , persistent , aggravated hostility islam otherwise agree , legal support punishment disbelief qur'an makes clear belief matter conscience public private islam conversion another faith punishable \( gone trend insisted apostasy punishable \( even death \) historically exception cursing insulting prophets falls category shatim borrowed book library khomeini 's fatwa etc lots stuff deleted , according analysis , looks like khomeini 's offering reward rushdie 's death fact constitutes criminal act according islamic law please see post yet rushdie \( islamic law \)
naren tekig1 pen tek com \( naren bala \) subject slavery \( sex allowed marriage \) organization tektronix , inc , beaverton , lines 21 article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) writes looking historical evidence islamic states n't survive agree , people people , even might start islamic revolution create perfect state , takes time internal corruption destroy ground rules nothing perfect nothing perpetual e even perfect , n't going stay way forever perpetual machines cannot exist thought laws mechanics thermodynamics stating atheist bn naren bala \( software evaluation engineer \) home \( 503 \) 627 work \( 503 \) 627 standard disclaimers apply
organization penn state university psuvm psu edu subject political atheists \? distribution world fido asd sgi com gap caltech edu acsu buffalo edu gap caltech edu 1993apr15 975 news wesleyan edu lines 11 article 1993apr15 975 news wesleyan edu , ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu \( scott sauyet \) says final words \? \( many would find appropriate \? \) finals got way \? keep fingers crossed ! keep fingers crossed \? doubt would anything \) martin
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization sgi lines 23 nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article horus ap mchp sni de , frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes 'll take wild guess say freedom objectively valuable base assumption everyone world deprived utterly freedom \( every act contrary \) , almost would want complain therefore take assert believe freedom valuable , almost everyone see , every bit absurd assert raining rainy day take candidate objective value , necessary condition objective morality objective values exist personal highly subjective opinion freedom good thing however , people assert true freedom following words messiah , realise people n't even agree meaning word mean say word x represents objective value word x objective meaning \? jon
acooper mac cc macalstr edu subject \? organization macalester college lines 38 article senator bedfellow mit edu , athena mit edu \( tom bruno \) writes wow leave terminal months everyone remember goes away depressing actually , familiar faces , counting bob kent , n't seem recognize anyone else anyone heard graham matthews recently , gotten degree sailed \( tm \) \? brings point posting many people around alt atheism since 1990 \? 've done stay top newsgroup , fall behind , really fall behind \( 's still bad rec arts startrek used , digress \) anyone tried keep deluge \? inquiring minds want know ! also anyone keep track infamous posters alt atheism end , leave newsgroup \? curious , guess cheers , tom bruno one people always unlimited stores unfounded respect people newsgroups mailing lists longer , certainly sympathy tom semi regularly posting \( keep \) since february , reading following threads since last august school 's newsreader months incompetent computing services never bothered find new feed site , n't accepting outgoing postings n't think anyone keeps track posters go 's old love 'em leave 'em internet best regards , adam john cooper verily , often laughed weaklings thought good simply acooper macalstr edu claws
acooper mac cc macalstr edu subject thoughts organization macalester college lines 100 article bissda 4 734849678 saturn wwc edu , bissda saturn wwc edu \( dan lawrence bissell \) writes first want start right say i'm christian 's okay 's rest come say makes sense one read tony campollo 's book liar , lunatic , real thing \? \( might little title , writes book anyway part effort destroy christianity , process became christian n't guy lawyer \? could give info guy \( never mind i'm sure plenty responses post , appear \) arguements uses summing book whether jesus god know many n't believe , listen different perspective something gain listening others say true make sure true cases book says jesus either liar , crazy \( \? \) modern day koresh \) actually said reasons would n't liar follows would die lie \? would n't people able tell liar \? die lie \? poverty stricken , sounds whether societal followers would able tell liar , necessarily even died believed , still makes completely selfish like us 's difference people gathered around kept , many gathered hearing seeing someone healed call fool , believe heal people historical proof \( see earlier threads \) besides , \( least name \) , cause enough deaths make whatever healing gave niether lunatic would entire nation drawn someone crazy heil ! ! doubtful , fact rediculous example anyone drawn david koresh obviously fool , logical people see right away david koresh \? curious therefore since n't liar lunatic , must real thing follow \? definition lunatic \( disproof thereof seem rather shaky \) things note fulfilled loads prophecies psalms , isaiah elsewhere 24 hrs alone betrayal crucifixion n't bible moment , next time write use good idea n't think people understand christian certainly see lot churches naturally , true christians , right \? \) rather think way life , total sacrafice everything god 's sake loved us enough die save us hey ca n't , god inspires us turn lives 's tuff people n't want , real christian would something strong persevere like weight lifting guitar playing , drums , whatever takes time n't rush one day , christianity whole life going church week , helping poor people box everything time units work time , sports , tv , social life god boxes carried us boxes created someone else handle , n't know 's worth sigh adam john cooper verily , often laughed weaklings thought good simply acooper macalstr edu claws
acooper mac cc macalstr edu subject thoughts christians organization macalester college lines 94 article 1993apr15 nuscc nus sg , cmtan iss nus sg \( tan chade meng dan \) writes sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) writes article uxa ecn bgu edu , gsu0033 uxa ecn bgu edu \( eric molas \) wrote christianity infectious cult reasons flourishes 1 \) gives people without hope driven purpose life safety blanked hide behind oh wow follow christian moral standard get eternal happiness agree many cases primitive emotional feelings based , wo n't laugh hell' makes certain religions attractive certain personalities agree u , would like make small point xtianity , dogmatic religions , attract people without hope etc also attract average people well believe xtainity , thru doctrines absolutist attitudes , provides great psychological shelter day day , fear uncertainty unknown etc good point , think average people take christianity much fear , , quite simply , way improve social life , get involved american culture , kids immigrants example since overwhelming major religion western world \( form \) , simply choice people take bored want something new lives , new , ordinary seems little weak , long n't hurt anybody buddha something say religions driven fear , man worships sacred mountains , sacred stones , sacred trees however , buddha also said , somebody finds peace religion , let good quotes , agree , let 's make sure alter one includes something like let , long preventing others finding peace something like \( course , suppose , someone really peace , would need inflicting evangelism \) personally , feel since religion psychological effect , let theists problem religions cause enormous harm non believers humanity whole \( holy wars , inquisitions , inter religious hatred , impedence science intellectual progress , us attitudes etc etc need say \? \) really n't know comments \? well , sure thing live lives popularity seems come go remember first entered high school , atheist \( always \) 7 friends time , 5 7 converted , always christianity \( also immigrants taiwan , sons immigrants , hence earlier gross generalization \) christianity seems lot popular people ever \( since 've noticing \) maybe perceptions knows \? one perfectly willing live let live , long set abstract rights agreements treat desire hurt notions well put arguments usenet , never good argumentation really seem apply christians \( even atheists \) must simply step person takes naturally , almost , instinctively best regards , adam john cooper verily , often laughed weaklings thought good simply acooper macalstr edu claws unenlightened one buddhism characteristics would tan chade meng expected cosmic religion future singapore transcends personal god , avoids dogmas theology cmtan iss nus sg covers natural spiritual , based religious sense experience things , natural spiritual , meaningful unity einstein
geoff east sun com \( geoff arnold sun bos r h coast near top \) subject \? organization lines 22 distribution world reply geoff east sun com nntp posting host east sun com posting provoked checking save file memorable posts first captured ken arromdee 19 feb 1990 , subject atheist \? article 473 question article , average 48 articles day last three years others noted , current posting rate kill file depressing large among posting saved early days articles following loren sunlight llnl gov \( loren petrich \) nazareth israel rel \( jesus christ nazareth \) mrc tomobiki cho cac washington edu \( mark crispin \) perry apollo hp com \( jim perry \) lippard ccit arizona edu \( james j lippard \) minsky media mit edu \( marvin minsky \) interesting bunch wonder 2 \? geoff arnold , pc nfs architect , sun select \( geoff arnold east sun com \) made whole thing \? great lie four guys , two thousand years ago , wine tear garden
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject political atheists \? organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 57 nntp posting host lloyd caltech edu kcochran nyx cs du edu \( keith justified ancient cochran \) writes think confusing words objective inherent objective system simply one outside observer , given postulates system , could perfectly judge situation action consistent system \( right \) \( wrong \) seem objecting goals system inherent , seem want define objective system one postulates could determined outside observer n't think good definition objective system need learn english really ` \? gravity objective system anybody learn , perform experiments get results every person performed experiments , gravity inherent system n't need excess information observations determine anything possible objectively determine someone 's guilt innocence within non inherent system agree morality necessarily inherent \( unless state everything evolutionary basis \) , mean cannot objective theory natural morality objective system , evidenced comments lions , mine perhaps objective , inherent anyway , noted , practices related mating rituals , etc among animals likely ones considered immoral previous definitions natural law therefore , revisions order , since class activities surrounding mating seem pose general problems fact , way postulates could determined outsider would sort higher truth , like sort god something , think god necessary objective system , seems trying say \? objecting notion objective system perhaps think would imply , would necessitate sort grand design \? , classified behavior animals line moral system certainly possible animals commit acts outside rules ethics , n't seem often perhaps intelligent enough immoral perhaps 's yet define moral system think code ethics basically defines undesired behaviors , etc immoral behavior could unwanted , unproductive , destructive , etc , depending goal system \( , immoral end \? \) keith
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject political atheists \? organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 49 nntp posting host lloyd caltech edu kcochran nyx cs du edu \( keith justified ancient cochran \) writes natural morality may specifically thought code ethics certain species developed order survive wait talking ethics morals \? distinction important \? see countless times animal kingdom , natural system basis system well huh \? well , moral system seems mimic natural one , number ways order humans thrive , seem need live groups , 's problem seem need 's wrong highlighted word \? n't know wrong \? possible humans survive long time wild \? yes , 's possible , difficult humans social animal , cause success order group function effectively , needs sort ethical code statement correct n't \? n't think \? , pointing conduct serves , trying give tautology , trying show examples moral systems goal propogation species goal natural system morality anybody lives relationship moral \? , order ensure propogation species , every man many women possible noted earlier , lack mating \( abstinence homosexuality \) n't really destructive system worst neutral matter , herds horses , dominate stallion mates dies killed whatever , new dominate stallion one mates seems case natural system morality trying shoot foot , mating practices something reexamined keith
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject political atheists \? organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 9 nntp posting host lloyd caltech edu kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) writes chimps almost human mean chimps moral \? well , chimps must system live social groups , must laws dictating undesired behavior keith
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject political atheists \? organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 14 nntp posting host lloyd caltech edu sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) writes explain sudden violent behavior human beings \? theory would state human detached primitive behavior , violent non human becomes \( please correct understanding wrong \) point madman killing people roof campus could explain explains situation \? madmen mad try explain output broken computer \? think keith
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject political atheists \? organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 14 nntp posting host lloyd caltech edu bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) writes show examples others provided counter examples supposed inherent moral hypothesis , successfully argue removes morality think change behavior large degree domesticated animals exhibit behaviors found wild n't think viewed good representatives wild animal kingdom , since bred thousands years produce certain behaviors , etc keith
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject political atheists \? organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 17 nntp posting host lloyd caltech edu adobe com \( michael wang \) writes well , typed definitions note upon reading , punishment , inanimate object , incapable showing mercy , say punishment cruel one sorry , must missed stuff read definition \( transferred sense fig , ly \) things cruel samples text first definition include , would see thy old eyes , man centre cruel universe sure nails cruel 'd imagine nails eyes would painful , imply painless death cruel , supposed trying show keith
cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization university illinois urbana lines 23 andrew cmu edu david r sacco dsav andrew cmu edu writes tons mail , could move discussion alt religion \? yes mac many among us feel life joke \( bob dylan \) happy every day life would n't human , 'd game show host \( taken movie \) lecture \( lek \) process notes professor become notes student without passing minds either michael cobb wo n't raise taxes middle university illinois class pay programs champaign urbana bill clinton 3rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu new taxes spending cuts 'll still 310 billion dollar deficits
cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization university illinois urbana lines 42 1qjahh mrs horus ap mchp sni de frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes article pww spac at1 59 rice edu pww spacsun rice edu \( peter walker \) writes article 1qie61 fkt horus ap mchp sni de , frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) wrote objective morality morality built objective values objective values come \? measure \? mediated interaction real world , \? scalar field \? science \( real world \) basis values , way round , would wish thing objective value , science objectively said useful kick head simple theories accurate predictions could objectively said useful set tarot cards like conclusions \? n't know exist first place \? one assumes objective reality , one n't know frank o'dwyer 'i'm hatching that' odwyer sse ie hens , evelyn conlon measure truth , beauty , goodness , love , friendship , trust , honesty , etc \? things basis objective fact n't limited know true \? ca n't say examples instances reason , cannot measure reason , semantics \? mac michael cobb wo n't raise taxes middle university illinois class pay programs champaign urbana bill clinton 3rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu new taxes spending cuts 'll still 310 billion dollar deficits
cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization university illinois urbana lines 36 kmr4 1576 po cwru edu kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) writes article horus ap mchp sni de frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes good logic better bad \? good science better bad \? definition great good okay bad horrible better worse good defined better bad come setup \? subjective , enough people agreed could switch order \? n't defining one unknown thing another \? , good better bad , bad worse good \? circular \? mac sun starts orbit earth accept bible michael cobb wo n't raise taxes middle university illinois class pay programs champaign urbana bill clinton 3rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu new taxes spending cuts 'll still 310 billion dollar deficits
cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization university illinois urbana lines 47 exodus eng sun com emarsh hernes sun eng sun com \( eric marsh \) writes article ux1 cso uiuc edu ux1 cso uiuc edu \( student \) writes hmmmm define objective morality well , depends upon talk say means ca n't hair ears , others say means acceptable would say general principles objective morality would listed one two places ten commandments sayings jesus first depends whether trust bible , second depends whether think jesus god , whether think accurate copies nt gong ! take moment look wrote first defined objective morality qualified objective morality subjective justifications see error \? sorry , disqualified , please play mac eric huh \? please explain problem based morality something could wrong \? gosh , 's heck lot stuff believe could wrong , comes sources could wrong base belief atheism \? knowledge reasoning \? could n't wrong \? mac michael cobb wo n't raise taxes middle university illinois class pay programs champaign urbana bill clinton 3rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu new taxes spending cuts 'll still 310 billion dollar deficits
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject islamic genocide organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 21 k , pick former yugoslavia instead say problems caused communism , n't really matter guess religious leaders calling end , , ca n't religiously motivated despite fact christians carve crosses dead muslims maybe want land maybe something else want maybe cross accidental n't know looks suspicious likely tragic situation bosnia combination ethnical religious motives , religion one attribute separates groups must agree sad saga bosnia terrible example case religion helping , instead used weapon humans sympathies mostly bosnian side , looks like serbs , willing use even christianity weapon former friends cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
dfuller portal hq videocart com \( dave fuller \) subject death penalty \( political atheists \? \) organization videocart inc x newsreader tin 1 1 pl3 lines 23 death penalty conceived deterrent crime , legal added \( automatic appeals , lengthy court battles , etc \) relegated purpose small part hence question , death penalty meant , see crime , get rid entirely \? doubt death penalty supposed deterrent crime , n't every crime carry death penalty \? would would n't \? \? \? death penalty punishment , much like 50 fine speeding punishment anyway , somebody murder mind n't much care consequences think another problem people dont think get caught wanted kill another person , would n't care penalty n't think would get caught strictly deterrent , along lines torture dave fuller dfuller portal hq videocart com
dfuller portal hq videocart com \( dave fuller \) subject thoughts christians organization videocart inc x newsreader tin 1 1 pl3 lines 40 cmtan iss nus sg \( tan chade meng dan \) writes personally , feel since religion psychological effect , let theists problem religions cause enormous harm non believers humanity whole \( holy wars , inquisitions , inter religious hatred , impedence science intellectual progress , us attitudes etc etc need say \? \) really n't know comments \? always held attempt change persons attitude lifestyle long makes happy tax anybody else seems ok atheists n't get atheist knocking door , stopping airport , handing literature social event theists seem think thier form happy work others try make sister born , real thorn side entire family several years finally got clue could n't help period bought atheist , i'm xtian books birthday xmas several times birthday cards would contain verses problem told mom going send sister atheist piece reading material got n't dare mom n't religious insist send \? \? society driven us religion ok preach , non religion self contained crock shit finally told sister n't find way life attractive seen exactly 0 effort trying convert since i'm sick religious types pampered , looked , worst respected atheists must end sight dave fuller dfuller portal hq videocart com
nanci ann miller nm0w andrew cmu edu subject bible quiz organization sponsored account , school computer science , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 14 kmr4 po cwru edu nntp posting host andrew cmu edu reply kmr4 po cwru edu kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) writes would mind e mailing questions , pairs answers \? would love next time theist comes door ! 'd like maybe post answer key \? nanci know \( sure \) author quote , please send email \( nm0w andrew cmu edu \) better coward minute dead rest life
organization penn state university psuvm psu edu subject bible \? lines 38 one thing think interesting alt fact without bible thumpers ilk would much newsgroup almost needs deluded masses write silly things athiests tear apart oh well , little tidbit aside really wanted write anyone believe sorry document bible \? want religious n't plausable books \? seriously , bible written multiple authors repeatedly contradict one minute tells kill kid talks back next says kill think really want follow deity pick one consistent , unlike last one invented people say jesus son god , n't god say ever put anyone else \? looks like n't god say make symbols idols \? crosses \? n't think fact believe bible rather far track \? jesus illiterate \? n't write anything \? anyone know \? honestly hope people believe bible understand one religious texts one poorer quality ones boot reason xtianity escaped middle east certain roman 's wine poisoned lead made rome xtian bad dream posting keeps one person , one person , standing telling people going hell happy hatred snap judgements guide robots life dr clayton mad scientist
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject political atheists \? organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 76 nntp posting host lloyd caltech edu kcochran nyx cs du edu \( keith justified ancient cochran \) writes many want see \? good question claim something general trend , disprove , guess 'd show general trend , 're going claim something , prove think cold fusion well , 've provided examples show trend general , \( others \) provided , mostly ones surrounding mating practices , etc n't think cases enough disprove general trend natural morality , , mating practices need reexamined try find immoral non mating related activities 're excluding mating related activities natural morality \? , mating practices special case 'll think yes , think natural system objectively deduced goal species propogation mind , equating two think , objective system n't necessarily natural one man wrote natural moral system objective moral system animals follow indeed , natural system objective , objective systems natural one , terms equated natural system subset objective ones , since homosexuality observed animals \( including birds dolphins \) , going claim animals capacity immoral \? n't claim homosexuality immoral n't harmful , although n't helpful either \( mating process \) , say homosexuality observed animal kingdom , n't mean bisexuality \? ca n't determine end moral claiming group \? usually implies one entity standard jargon read textbook forms used throughout well , i'm saying goals inherent must postulates , really way determine otherwise \( although could argued arise natural goal somewhat removed \) postulate assume posit 's right goals n't inherent create theory postulate sun around earth , moon actually made green cheese , stars portions angels three dimensional reality could , would contradict observations build mathematical proof postulate given length one side triangle , length second side triangle , degree angle connecting , determine length third side postulate something generally \( always \) found true n't think postulate would valid guess one people going receptive order assume something system , able show postulates work yes , think goals survival happiness work think n't \? good goals \? keith
jcopelan nyx cs du edu \( one \) subject new member organization salvation army draft board lines 28 article portal hq videocart com dfuller portal hq videocart com \( dave fuller \) writes hello started reading group today , think going large participant daily postings liked section faq constructing logical arguments well done atheist , try turn people atheists try figure people believe way n't much care different view comes could wrong willing admit possibility something religious followers dont seem capability happy aboard ! dave fuller dfuller portal hq videocart com welcome official keeper list nicknames people known alt atheism \( n't know list , \) awarded nickname buckminster next time post article , sign nickname like dave buckminster fuller thanks jim humor means never say 're sorry copeland god dead actor plays part sting , words fear find way place heart history without voice reason every faith curse teach us without freedom past things get worse nothing
jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) subject inimitable rushdie organization boston university physics department lines 41 article blaze cs jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \( ken arromdee \) writes article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) writes judaism , one maddi confirmed one reiterate one easily leave religion time , simply making public declaration one lazy religion cannot held responsible many islamic countries publically renouncing islam quite dangerous countries might , according , necessarily practicing true islam , danger still remains one cannot blame failure publically renounce islam laziness opposed desire stay alive well course , 're planning pull rushdie declaring one 's leaving religion little concerned compared one 's plans rushdie 's case , one discussion , one tragic islamic countries , however , islamic countries \( whose constitutions contains statements islamic law incorporated \) , e g kuwait , one freely make statements without fear mention already pointed rushdie said books 's muslim , surely enough readers books provide appropriate number witnesses story become tiresome conditions clear care make point clear make chronology show made public statements leaving islam prior writing tsv make statements made clear rather trying islam go talking personal feelings gregg
jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) subject yet rushdie islamic law organization boston university physics department lines 50 article 1993apr10 bradford ac uk l newnham bradford ac uk \( leonard newnham \) writes gregg jaeger \( jaeger buphy bu edu \) wrote jerk plenty british leaders , \? qur'an basis judgement clearly heretic standards qur'an end story could little specific exactly heretic jerk judged koran liking guy , far know done nothing contrary teachings koran , least i'm told several iranian research students share office easy convenient denounce feeling views clear cut widely accepted suggest made clear elsewhere khomeini put price head someone another country , makes jerk well international outlaw khomeini advocates view series twelve islamic leaders \( twelve imams \) free error sin makes heretic qur'an muhammad chastised error directly god qur'an says muhammad greatest example proper islamic behavior thus muslim free error usual seems almost many islamic viewpoints muslims perhaps seems , hardly case widespread agreement matters islam certainly many viewpoints issues particularly islamic , large group people name comes back koran imprecise wording qur'an particularly imprecise wording , though true several interpretations possible interpretations many words however , entire text qur'an makes meanings precise enough intelligent people free power lust come agreement gregg
jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) subject yet rushdie islamic law organization boston university physics department lines 23 article 1993apr10 bradford ac uk l newnham bradford ac uk \( leonard newnham \) writes gregg jaeger \( jaeger buphy bu edu \) wrote well , seemed slightly find union jack flying city hall may ask \? 's british want \( ni one big expensive problem \) , 's majority population ni want problem \? majority open mouths public perhaps seems quite alot incentive british control ni , like using north channel irish sea waste dump \( appalled dumping saw harbor \) understanding quite alot radioactivity enters water 'd quite problem ni got independence britain stopped accepting waste suggesting british industry n't making profit situation well \? gregg
jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) subject yet rushdie islamic law organization boston university physics department lines 16 article 1993apr10 bradford ac uk l newnham bradford ac uk \( leonard newnham \) writes gregg jaeger \( jaeger buphy bu edu \) wrote could please explain way qur'an eyes carries excess baggage another era \? qur'an opinion carries baggage trying run modern economy without charging interest loans hear , even fundamentalist iran compromise ideal sort loans heard exactly \? gregg
jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) subject yet rushdie islamic law organization boston university physics department lines 14 article jkj fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes hope islamic bank something bcci , ripped many small depositors among muslim community uk elsewhere jon grow , childish propagandist gregg
jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) subject inimitable rushdie organization boston university physics department lines 32 article 1993apr10 bradford ac uk l newnham bradford ac uk \( leonard newnham \) writes gregg jaeger \( jaeger buphy bu edu \) wrote , western countries , n't legal concept , 's slightest bit pertinent topic , british author living united kingdom protection british law ah , yes , keep forgetting , governments superior entities religious organizations forgive gun higher law logic course governments superior entities , elected people , whereas religious leaders certainly perhaps christianity , islam choice religious leaders made people much superiority argument people trust make law obviously represents higher law democracy democracy basic element islam learn one ! ever notice called fundamentalists algeria repressed secular government free democratic elections gregg
healta saturn wwc edu \( tammy r healy \) subject free moral agency lines 34 organization walla walla college distribution na lines 34 article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) writes bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) subject free moral agency date 14 apr 93 21 41 31 gmt article healta 133 saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu \( tammy r healy \) writes old , satan rarely mentioned , huh \? n't sda bible contain book job \? suffering world , caught inthe crossfire sometimes , innocents well teh guilty get hurt 's opinion hope cleared things seems like omnipotent omniscient god got create satan shits \? bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com said queens could stay , blew bronx away , sank manhattan sea n't say never mentioned satan , said rarely , please excuse lack perfect memory omnipotence tammy p i'm sound anyone 's feelings get hurt
healta saturn wwc edu \( tammy r healy \) subject note bobby lines 52 organization walla walla college lines 52 article 1993apr14 daffy cs wisc edu mccullou snake2 cs wisc edu \( mark mccullough \) writes mccullou snake2 cs wisc edu \( mark mccullough \) subject note bobby date wed , 14 apr 1993 19 09 04 gmt article 1993apr14 monu6 cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au \( fred rice \) writes netcom com madhaus netcom com \( maddi hausmann \) writes mark , much really know vegetarian diets \? problem b vitamins , 's balancing proteins also one vitamin cannot obtained non animal products , concern , eat meat , dairy , eggs believe b12 , problem supplements available yes , b12 come animal products vegetarian diet \( eat dairy eggs \) issue n't see original posting , yes , know vegetarian diets , considering several close friends devout vegetarians , take vitamin supplements b12 one ones thinking , long time since read article saw talking special dietary needs vegetarians n't quote full numbers \( considering nice place \) b12 also come whole grain rice , understand brands australia \( places , i'm sure \) get b12 b12 tablets whole grain rice sure n't enriched type \? know basically rice get almost everything need , n't heard rice b12 thought 'd contribute different issue norm \) contributed programming thread earlier \) fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au 2 one \( vegetarian eats animal products e eggs , milk , cheese , etc , 3 years diet , need start taking b12 supplements b12 found animals \) acutally bodies make b12 , think , bodies use b12 2 3 years vegetarians , like , still get b12 milk products eggs , n't need supplements anyone knows , please post i'm nearly mash knowledge 've gleaned tammy
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject morality \? \( political atheists \? \) organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 13 nntp posting host punisher caltech edu kcochran nyx cs du edu \( keith justified ancient cochran \) writes , saying n't possible instinctive act moral one \? , order act act morality , person must consider immoral action disregard \? , i'm saying order act moral immoral , somebody someone something must consider implies intelligence , instinct consider \? action \? i'm still sure know trying say keith
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject morality \? \( political atheists \? \) organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 23 nntp posting host punisher caltech edu livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes , saying n't possible instinctive act moral one \? like think many things possible explain instinctive acts moral acts , happy listen example , instinctive murder , order act act morality , person must consider immoral action disregard \? weaker must possibility organism 's people talking consider alternatives , intelligent beings moral , even beings mimics \? , much emphasis place intelligence \? animals species could kill , n't trying say n't act morality animals n't intelligent enough think like \? keith
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject morality \? \( political atheists \? \) organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 24 nntp posting host punisher caltech edu livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes n't expect lion know , know anything kind fact , n't evidence lions ever consider issues , course , n't think assign moral significance instinctive behaviour lions 've saying moral behavior likely null behavior , n't take much work moral , certainly immoral \( cases \) also , 've said morality remnant evolution moral system based concepts well practiced animal kingdom basically saying think moral undefinable term , moral systems n't exist \? ca n't agree definition terms , hope discuss \? , 's perfectly clear saying know moral system , ca n't speak people , n't get us anywhere particular beliefs irrelevant unless share discuss keith
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject \? \( cruel \( political atheists \? \) \) organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 13 distribution world , public nntp posting host punisher caltech edu keywords time consistency check , bub nmsu edu \( stephen doe \) writes course , later time think death penalty cruel unusual , outlawed present , people n't seem think way fellow speaks objective natural morality suppose majority decides slavery ok , longer immoral \? claim system objective keith
jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) subject inimitable rushdie organization boston university physics department lines 31 article ics uci edu ics uci edu \( brett j vickers \) writes article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) writes well , seeing muslim sort fatwa issued khomeini would relevant understand fear persecution share even \( muslim \) , however rushdie 's behavior completely excusable fatwa issued khomeini relevant anyone n't live iran \? issued khomeini n't relevant anyone issued honest learned scholar islam would relevant muslim would contrary islamic law muslims required respect decides whether rushdie 's behavior excusable \? anyone sufficiently well versed islamic law capable reasoning , talking weak sense excuse depends sense excuse mind cares think inexcusable \? someone thinks opinion important , obviously obviously n't care , care n't care gregg
healta saturn wwc edu \( tammy r healy \) subject free moral agency kent lines 37 organization walla walla college lines 37 article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) writes sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject free moral agency kent date thu , 15 apr 1993 01 51 57 gmt article healta 135 saturn wwc edu , healta saturn wwc edu \( tammy r healy \) wrote ezekiel 28 17 says , hart filled pride beauty corrupted wisdom sake therefore cast ground exposed helpless curious gaze kings bible scholars , 1st 11 verses refer prince tyre prophesy addressed human prince verses 12 19 refer king tyre , term satan tammy , 's rationale connect prince tyre satan , could give us rational bible cites , thanks \? i'm afraid case , thinking model falls apart like house cards let 's see ! cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net time ezekiel written , israel apostacy i'm mistaken , tyre make war israel like said , prince tyre human ruler tyre wicked man calling satan king tyre , ezekiel saying satan real ruler tyre n't think interpretation orthodox christian one , although christian bible commentaries interpret king tyre reference satan \( n't read ezekiel throughly long time \) tammy
healta saturn wwc edu \( tammy r healy \) subject free moral agency jeff clark lines 47 organization walla walla college lines 47 article i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) writes i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) subject free moral agency jeff clark date thu , 15 apr 1993 20 28 27 gmt article healta 136 saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu \( tammy r healy \) writes \( deletion \) also said , millions suffer adam ee \? seems pretty sick way going creating universe i'm gonna respond giving small theology lesson forgive , used theology major first , believe planet involved cosmic struggle great controversy christ satan \( borrowed book title \) god consider interests entire universe making decisions \( deletion \) universe created way , tell less let one one 's creatures likes others \? definitions , god created satan full knowledge would happen including every choice satan explain us free , goes along omniscience \? n't god know everything would happen even created world \? concerned tyrant noone would care everything fine \? whole idea comes possibility abuse power , something god introduced according description \? way , sure read faq \? especially part preaching \? benedikt n't feel i'm preaching i'm trying answer people 's questions talking religion , beliefs comes post , n't intent converting anyone n't expect atheists newsgroup take say grain salt wish state , ask go 's preaching , i'm 'll get soapbox tammy
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject pompous ass organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 28 nntp posting host punisher caltech edu arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \( ken arromdee \) writes look , i'm one made nazi comparisons people compared religious people nazi germany said started little things \( one really knew little things , strangely enough \) grew bigger things said motto one little things contradicted motto one little things nobody bothered , huh \? `little' things reference germany , clearly people said similar things germany , one could name said things everyone know , n't going waste time repeating sounds like one knew , either looked books , avail going way intrusions course , motto n't caused problems 40 year history , doubt going caused problems ignore every instance someone describes one caused problems \? , one shown things better motto , 'd likely better n't think motto initiates sort harassment harassment occur whether motto present keith
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject pompous ass organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 57 nntp posting host punisher caltech edu andrew newell tan102 psuvm psu edu writes think support first claim , people simply harass matter , doubt true think theists loss , enough reason god trust motto coins , coins representation government , christians given ammunition slander atheists unpatriotic , ban ammunition \? get rid guns \? yes , heard used conversation christians sure , may fall back things , one available use worse others \? national anthem \? changed \? god bless america \? list goes imagine next year 's set coins labeled motto god dead certainly , statement u coins would offend almost every christian 'd tempted rub motto face christians debunking standard motto gets boring 'd better people despise statement printed item represents government endorsement government oh \? coin motto endorsement trusting god endorsement , acknowledgement \? think gods things people proud , n't think motto encourages belief n't particularly feel like trusting god , government putting every coin prints \? motto legitimate , would read god , gods , trust would approve motto \? whether motto intended anti atheist , turns open invitation use anti atheist tool removing tool solve problem \? increase problem \? keith
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject objective morality \( political atheists \? \) organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 74 nntp posting host punisher caltech edu livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes want know omniscient going perform feat definitely actions right wrong omniscient , 'd know exactly , purpose mind , particular goal mind , sould able judge whether action accordance general goal n't think 've show existence objective moral system exist , practice , difficult perfectly emulate mean , understand concept objective system , right \? thought explaining us certainly n't understand explaining objective system , known goals , actions judged either compatible goals , simple problem systems current practice goals differ , goals society different note objective system necessarily inherent one concept innocence dependent whether certain actions right wrong , depends moral system , objective system , someone deemed innocent quite easily omniscient person anyway , think cleared recursive definition murder , one complaining n't think solves anything speculate would objective moral system question still whether even say one 've said many , many times 's worth , n't think cleared anything concerning murder part problem \? mean harmed \? harm spend existence food another species \? oh , moral systems would considered within species okay us enslave animals , right \? humans course , ideally , perhaps would n't even bother animals one first point , 's wrong enslave humans according moral system second point , i'm vegetarian , enslave animals , right \? kill \? vegetarian health reasons \? , vegetarian \? fail see personal views relevant , anyway wrong eat animals personal moral system \? course seems perfectly valid kill members species food might nice , though , animals made suffer instance , cow field lives life way would wild seem happy enough however , veal youngsters n't treated well objective moral system \? n't know goal particular system \? inherent system natural moral system nope , seems okay kill species food keith
healta saturn wwc edu \( tammy r healy \) subject judge , bobby \? lines 31 organization walla walla college lines 31 article kmr4 po cwru edu kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) writes kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) subject judge , bobby \? date thu , 15 apr 1993 04 12 38 gmt \( n mozumder \) writes \( tammy r healy \) writes would like take liberty quote christian writer named ellen g white hope said help edit remarks group future set standard make opinions , views duty , interpretations scripture , criterion others heart condemn come ideal thoughts mount blessing p 124 point \? point taken upon judge others god true judge sun starts orbit earth accept bible agree totally ! amen ! stated better less world tammy
healta saturn wwc edu \( tammy r healy \) subject thoughts keywords dan bissell lines 31 organization walla walla college lines 31 article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) writes bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) subject thoughts keywords dan bissell date 15 apr 93 18 21 21 gmt article bissda 4 734849678 saturn wwc edu bissda saturn wwc edu \( dan lawrence bissell \) writes first want start right say i'm christian makes sense one read tony campollo 's book liar , lunatic , real thing \? \( might little title , writes book anyway part effort destroy christianity , process became christian good fun 's since group ripe opportunity gut , gill , poor bastard ah well get popcorn bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com said queens could stay , blew bronx away , sank manhattan sea hope 're going flame please give you' given tammy
healta saturn wwc edu \( tammy r healy \) subject judge , bobby \? lines 38 organization walla walla college lines 38 article 1993apr14 ultb isc rit edu snm6394 ultb isc rit edu \( n mozumder \) writes snm6394 ultb isc rit edu \( n mozumder \) subject judge , bobby \? date wed , 14 apr 1993 21 33 56 gmt article healta 56 saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu \( tammy r healy \) writes bobby , would like take liberty quote christian writer named ellen g white hope said help edit remarks group future set standard make opinions , views duty , interpretations scripture , criterion others heart condemn come ideal thoughts mount blessing p 124 hope quoting n't make atheists gag , think ellen white put better could tammy point \? peace , bobby mozumder point set views way believe saying world caused atheism ridiculous dialogue newsgroups see posts spirit condemnation atheists newsgroup don' believe exactly 're try convert atheists , 're failing miserably wants position constantly defending insulting attacks , like seem like \? ! i'm sorry 're blind n't get quote , everyone else seemed tammy
rush leland stanford edu \( \) subject death penalty \( political atheists \? \) organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa lines 52 article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) writes article 1993apr14 leland stanford edu rush leland stanford edu \( \) writes worry one case 20 , 000 \( \) innocent man convicted something horrible enough warrant death penalty , hence put laws place make virtually impossible actually execute real criminals , death penalty serving original purpose either changed done away n't numbers back , take following accordingly use number 1 20 , 000 innocent people sentenced die acceptable loss benefit capital punishment 'd , surprised ratio low approximately dozen known cases execution innocent us since turn century period sentenced 240 , 000 people death \? accounting cases n't know truth , seems reasonable assume twice many innocent people fact executed would raise number death sentences since 1900 half million acceptance ratio hold rather doubt 's case point , course , acceptable loss 1 10 , 000 \? seems 're probably even well 1 100 \? 1 2 \? perhaps find better solution \? bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com suggestions better solution might \? realize hand nature numbers used ca n't answer acceptable loss rate however , said another post , despise idea supporting criminals life 's economics situation concern money spent feeding , clothing , housing taking care people demonstrated unfit live society could go number places , , probably others , would consider far worthwhile would lives americans give people jobs , give homeless shelter number things clyde little girls , like , n't need reason ! robert heinlein
ednclark kraken itc gu edu au \( jeffrey clark \) subject thoughts keywords dan bissell nntp posting host kraken itc gu edu au organization itc , griffith university , brisbane , australia lines 70 bissda saturn wwc edu \( dan lawrence bissell \) writes book says jesus either liar , crazy \( modern day koresh \) actually said convinced religious fantasies time messiah , rebel leader organisation jews built purpose throwing yoke roman oppression , reasons would n't liar follows would die lie \? moslem fanatics strap bombs backs driving jewish embassies dying truth \( hint think \) \? nazi soldiers wwii dying truth \? people die lies time would n't people able tell liar \? people hitler liar \? napoleon , , ronald reagan \? spend millions dollars year trying find techniques detect lying \? answer , would n't able tell liar lied things gathered around kept , many gathered hearing seeing someone healed call fool , believe heal people think healed people , bible says \? god n't exist \( possibility \) bible divinely inspired one ca n't use piece evidence , written unbiased observers niether lunatic would entire nation drawn someone crazy doubtful , fact rediculous example hitler lunatics \? khan , jim jones thousands examples history people drawn lunatics anyone drawn david koresh obviously fool , logical people see right away therefore since n't liar lunatic , must real thing obviously cannot rule liar lunatic mention possibilities given triad things note fulfilled loads prophecies psalms , isaiah elsewhere 24 hrs alone betrayal possibly self fulfilling prophecy \( ie aware order fulfil prophecies \) , possibly selective behalf keepers holy bible thousand years general public access possibly also text written \( like \) anything happens twisted fit words raving fictional crucifixion n't bible moment , next time write use stuff hard christian deleted severely recommend reconsider reasons christian , unconvincing unbiased observer jeff
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject political atheists \? organization sgi lines 15 distribution world nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article gap caltech edu , keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) writes kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) writes chimps almost human mean chimps moral \? well , chimps must system live social groups , must laws dictating undesired behavior ah , verb must warned one back kindergarten , must laws \? jon
house helios usq edu au \( ron house \) subject thoughts keywords dan bissell organization university southern queensland lines 42 bissda saturn wwc edu \( dan lawrence bissell \) writes first want start right say i'm christian know n't get involved , \) bit deleted book says jesus either liar , crazy \( modern day koresh \) actually said reasons would n't liar follows would die lie \? would n't people able tell liar \? people gathered around kept , many gathered hearing seeing someone healed call fool , believe heal people niether lunatic would entire nation drawn someone crazy doubtful , fact rediculous example anyone drawn david koresh obviously fool , logical people see right away therefore since n't liar lunatic , must real thing , dan , try one book says muhammad either liar , crazy \( modern day mad mahdi \) actually said reasons would n't liar follows would die lie \? would n't people able tell liar \? people gathered around kept , many gathered hearing seeing son law made sun stand still call fool , believe make sun stand still niether lunatic would entire nation drawn someone crazy doubtful , fact rediculous example anyone drawn mad mahdi obviously fool , logical people see right away therefore since n't liar lunatic , must real thing ron house usq \( house helios usq edu au \) , australia
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject yet rushdie islamic law organization sgi lines 31 nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article bu edu , jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) writes article jkj fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes hope islamic bank something bcci , ripped many small depositors among muslim community uk elsewhere jon grow , childish propagandist gregg , i'm really sorry pointed practice things n't quite wonderful utopia folks seem claim , exactly childish open question example islamically owned operated bank someone bet n't real islamic owners operators \? yet actually turned long running quite ruthless operation steal money small often quite naive depositors naive depositors put life savings bcci rather nasty interest motivated western bank street \? could believed islamically owned operated bank could n't possibly cheat \? please n't try con us thinking work right next time jon
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject morality \? \( political atheists \? \) organization sgi lines 51 nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article gap caltech edu , keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes , saying n't possible instinctive act moral one \? like think many things possible explain instinctive acts moral acts , happy listen example , instinctive murder murdering would moral significance , since would nothing voluntary , order act act morality , person must consider immoral action disregard \? weaker must possibility organism 's people talking consider alternatives , intelligent beings moral , even beings mimics \? starting get point necessarily action parrot saying pretty polly n't necessarily commenting polly , much emphasis place intelligence \? see animals species could kill , n't posters given many examples exactly , seem short memory trying say n't act morality animals n't intelligent enough think like \? i'm saying must possibility organism 's people talking consider alternatives 's right posting replying jon
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject \? \( political atheists \? \) organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 34 nntp posting host punisher caltech edu livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes act morally particular reason \? moral \? morality instinctive , animals \? saying morality instinctive animals attempt assume conclusion conclusion \? conclusion correct err behaviour instinctive animals natural moral system see , disagreeing definition moral earlier , said must conscious act definition , instinctive behavior pattern could act morality trying apply human terms non humans think even someone conscious alternative , prevent behavior moral n't think morality behavior pattern \? human morality \? moral action one consistent given pattern , enforce certain behavior moral keep getting backwards trying show behaviour pattern morality whether morality behavior pattern irrelevant , since behavior pattern , example motions planets , \( \? \) people would call morality try show , definition , ca n't shown , morality thought large class could defined terms many things laws physics wish however , seems silly talk moral planet obeys laws less silly talk animals , least free keith
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject cruel \( political atheists \? \) organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 26 nntp posting host punisher caltech edu livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes whole thread started discussion whether death penalty constituted cruel punishment , forbidden us constitution yes , n't say meant cruel , \) supreme court , b \) makes sense refer constitution , quite silent meaning word cruel spent quite bit time wording constitution picked words whose meanings implied intent already looked dictionary define word n't sufficient \? oh , discussing death penalty \( discussion resulted one murder resulted discussion objective morality already three times removed morality discussion \) actually , discussing word cruel us constitution says nothing discussing relation death penalty , constitution need define words within anyone n't know cruel look dictionary \( \) keith
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject political atheists \? organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 14 nntp posting host punisher caltech edu kcochran nyx cs du edu \( keith justified ancient cochran \) writes , 's thought theory meant humans generally capable instincts , follow often necessarily intelligent ok , n't animals generally capable instincts \? good question i'm sure could answer better , animals brains set differently animals trained , 're instincts serve well , reason contradict keith
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject morality \? \( political atheists \? \) organization sgi lines 47 distribution world nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article gap caltech edu , keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes n't expect lion know , know anything kind fact , n't evidence lions ever consider issues , course , n't think assign moral significance instinctive behaviour lions 've saying moral behavior likely null behavior , n't take much work moral , certainly immoral \( cases \) 's thing ever heard serious \? n't take much work moral \? also , 've said morality remnant evolution really \? 's people discuss morality daily basis \? 's kind evolutionary , like little toe \? moral system based concepts well practiced animal kingdom must novel use phrase based sufficiently familiar mean based significance argument \? basically saying think moral undefinable term , moral systems n't exist \? ca n't agree definition terms , hope discuss \? , 's perfectly clear saying know moral system , ca n't speak people , n't get us anywhere particular beliefs irrelevant unless share discuss well , would like know particular moral beliefs \? raise topic 've never considered , 'll quite happy invent moral belief thin air jon
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject pompous ass organization sgi lines 28 distribution world nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article gap caltech edu , keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) writes arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \( ken arromdee \) writes look , i'm one made nazi comparisons people compared religious people nazi germany said started little things \( one really knew little things , strangely enough \) grew bigger things said motto one little things contradicted motto one little things nobody bothered , huh \? `little' things reference germany , clearly people said similar things germany , one could name said things everyone know , n't going waste time repeating sounds like one knew , either looked books , avail 's true gave two examples one rather anti semitism german christianity well hitler arrived system social ranks used germany austria distinguish jews rest population neither terrible , helped set psychology gradual jews made easier jon
patrick c leger pl1u andrew cmu edu subject thoughts christians organization sophomore , electrical computer engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 51 nntp posting host po3 andrew cmu edu reply portal hq videocart com excerpts netnews alt atheism 15 apr 93 thoughts christians dave fuller portal hq vi i'm sick religious types pampered , looked , worst respected atheists must end sight think 'd help got couple good atheists \( even good , steadfast agnostics \) high political offices last time \( openly \) atheist president \? ever \? \( n't actually know n't rhetorical questions \) 'bout supreme court \? one thing really ticked ago ad news program local station promo said something like cults , prey young \? ahem ever hear baptism birth \? n't preying young , n't know used \( ack , barf \) catholic , even confirmed shortly thereafter decided load bs mom , really insisted continue go church , felt duty \( ! \) bring believer ! one things 've heard life suggested go talk priest , agreed priest amazingly cool basically said n't believe , good forcing actually , guess n't amazingly cool response 'd hope \( indeed , expect \) human n't expect find absurd religion exists yet , also see usefulness people facing fact 're going worm food decades , n't cosmic purpose humanity universe , pretty difficult people readily available , pre digested solution pretty attractive , 're either \) gullible enough , b \) willing suspend reasoning abilities piece mind , c \) stuff rammed throat long remember religion general provides nice patch human weaknesses organized religion provides nice way keep population control blech chris chris leger sophomore , carnegie mellon computer engineering remember n't like somebody saying , always ignore !
patrick c leger pl1u andrew cmu edu subject 's mary 's fault ! organization sophomore , electrical computer engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 23 nntp posting host po5 andrew cmu edu know , occurred today whole christian thing blamed solely mary , 's married joseph gets knocked think ol' joe finds 's getting around \? mary comes ridiculous story god making pregnant actually , ca n't ridiculous , considering number people believe anyway , never tells anyone truth , even tells poor little jesus 's hot shit , son god everyone else tells , since 've bought mary 's story , mary actually turn \? liar , cause mankind 's greatest folly recently minted two cents chris chris leger sophomore , carnegie mellon computer engineering remember n't like somebody saying , always ignore !
pww spacsun rice edu \( peter walker \) subject rawlins debunks creationism organization n't , nobody saw , ca n't prove thing lines 30 article 1993apr15 rambo atlanta dg com , wpr atlanta dg com \( bill rawlins \) wrote talking origins , merely science science cannot explain origins person exclude anything science issue origins say higher truth science false premise says \? hear say god way , enjoy science sure n't understand truly wonder observing god 's creation macroevolution mixture 15 percent science 85 percent religion guaranteed within three percent error \) bill , hereby award golden shovel award pile bullshit 've seen i'm afraid 's bit religion macroevolution , 've made rather grand statement science explain origins large extent , already ! bill rawlins wpr atlanta dg com peter w walker yu , shall tell knowledge \? dept space physics know thing , say know astronomy know thing , admit know rice university knowledge houston , tx fu
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject thoughts organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 37 nntp posting host punisher caltech edu keywords dan bissell bissda saturn wwc edu \( dan lawrence bissell \) writes first want start right say i'm christian well , alt atheism hope try convert anyone makes sense one many would disagree book says jesus either liar , crazy \( modern day koresh \) actually said well , n't give particular book much weight actually , n't think statements correct likely jesus' fame attributed death strong motives things note fulfilled loads prophecies psalms , isaiah elsewhere 24 hrs alone 's prophecy , 's significant \? n't think people understand christian think understand certainly see lot churches rather think way life , total sacrafice everything god 's sake well , sell computer donate life religion n't waste time keith
kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization case western reserve university lines 26 nntp posting host b64635 student cwru edu article horus ap mchp sni de frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes 'll take wild guess say freedom objectively valuable base assumption everyone world deprived utterly freedom \( every act contrary \) , almost would want complain therefore take assert believe freedom valuable , almost everyone see , every bit absurd assert raining rainy day take candidate objective value , necessary condition objective morality objective values exist shown vast majority \( \) would agree however , nothing subjective majority event , must challenge assertion know many societies heck , many us citizens willing trade freedom security whatever promises made broken john laws , man without honor keep given word
chrisb seachg com \( chris blask \) subject islamic authority women reply chrisb seachg com \( chris blask \) organization , mississauga , ontario , canada lines 78 snm6394 ultb isc rit edu \( n mozumder \) writes article 1993apr7 1203 wam umd edu west wam umd edu writes belief causes far horrors crusades , native americans , killing various tribes south america inquisition counter reformation wars followed salem witch trials european witch holy wars middle east colonization destruction africa wars christianity islam \( post crusade \) genocide \( biblical \) canaanites philistines invasion india attempted genocide jews nazi germany current missionary assaults tribes africa think horrors mentioned due lack people following religion lack people following religion also include fanatics people n't know following know right \? trying shove throat religion causes horrors really covers something false save peace , bobby mozumder thought another one , bible , 's definately lack religion book esther \( read day reasons \) describes origin , jewish joy peace long short story 75 , 000 people killed people tripping peacefull solutions lying \( could n't swing sacred cow without nice , peaceful solution \) 'course joshua ass spring mind agree bobby far religion used kill large numbers people usually used form manner originally intended n't reduce number deaths directly caused religion , minor observation fact almost nothing pure universe act honestly attempting find true meaning religious teaching many times inspired hatred led war many people led religious leaders involved absolute truth , therefore driven kill leaders point many things involved religion often lead war whether things part religion , unpleasant side effect \( bobby would \) result people switching religion atheism spontaneously , results religious groups long involved majority parts man 's history atheists , hand \( , \) typically ideological social caste , driven organize spread beliefs overuse nazism show true two groups clear specific ideologies using religious persecution means anyone cannot see obvious namely groups founded reasons entirely , used religious persecution belief system made powerfull trying hard basically , bobby uses examples wars specifically fought religion many choices well , i'm key west flames heating bottom little silver butter dishes ciao chris blask
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject objective morality \( political atheists \? \) organization sgi lines 24 distribution world nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article gap caltech edu , keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes want know omniscient going perform feat definitely actions right wrong omniscient , 'd know exactly , purpose mind , particular goal mind , sould able judge whether action accordance general goal contradicting pretty massive way , n't think 've even noticed another part thread , 've telling us goal natural morality animals survive suppose omniscient told long term survival humanity requires us exterminate species , either terrestrial alien make moral \? jon
organization penn state university andrew newell tan102 psuvm psu edu subject pompous ass gap caltech edu psuvm psu edu gap caltech edu psuvm psu edu 93105 psuvm psu edu gap caltech edu lines 36 article gap caltech edu , keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) says andrew newell tan102 psuvm psu edu writes sure , may fall back things , one available use worse others \? national anthem \? changed \? god bless america \? list goes worse \? maybe , definately violation rules us govt supposedly follows maybe others changed \? i'm personally concerned anthem since n't come across daily nearly unavoidable routines every christian 'd tempted rub motto face christians debunking standard motto gets boring 'd better people despise n't despise people opinions meant ones refuse listen idea becomes exercise amusement motto legitimate , would read god , gods , trust would approve motto \? unless way get rid current one change
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject \? \( political atheists \? \) organization sgi lines 63 nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article gap caltech edu , keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes act morally particular reason \? moral \? morality instinctive , animals \? saying morality instinctive animals attempt assume conclusion conclusion \? conclusion correct err behaviour instinctive animals natural moral system see , disagreeing definition moral earlier , said must conscious act definition , instinctive behavior pattern could act morality trying apply human terms non humans pardon \? trying apply human terms non humans \? think must confusion i'm guy saying animal behaviour instinctive moral refusing apply human terms animals get turned applying human terms \? think even someone conscious alternative , prevent behavior moral i'm sure think , say trying convince \? n't think morality behavior pattern \? human morality \? moral action one consistent given pattern , enforce certain behavior moral keep getting backwards trying show behaviour pattern morality whether morality behavior pattern irrelevant , since behavior pattern , example motions planets , \( \? \) people would call morality try show , definition , ca n't shown 've offered , four times , think , accept definition allow ascribe moral orbital motion planets , morality thought large class could defined terms many things laws physics wish however , seems silly talk moral planet obeys laws less silly talk animals , least free ah , law silly less silly mr livesey finds intuitive silly mr schneider finds intuitive less silly 's devastating argument , n't jon
jimh carson u washington edu \( james hogan \) subject inimitable rushdie organization university washington , seattle lines 30 nntp posting host carson u washington edu article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) writes article ics uci edu ics uci edu \( brett j vickers \) writes article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) writes well , seeing muslim sort fatwa issued khomeini would relevant understand fear persecution share even \( muslim \) , however rushdie 's behavior completely excusable much considered \( called \) islam related dialogue total waste time , somehow ca n't restrain instance , , gregg , try 20 52 p come senses accept knowing wisdom power quran allah , allah drops congratulate wise choice allah rolls bones get allah gets , bends , invites take spin around block wow 20 56 p realize maybe allah looking commitment i'm ready , say man , 've got programming gotta go 'll call 20 59 p thinking , renounce islam btw , gregg , allah said still thinks jim
mas cadence com \( masud khan \) subject inimitable rushdie organization cadence design systems , inc lines 48 article i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) writes yes , , fortunately , religions replaced systems value human rights higher secular laws seem value criminal life victims life , islam places rights society every member rights individual , call true human rights way , actually support claim precedence islamic law \? case , laws religions \? muslim living non muslim land bound laws land live , disregard islamic law still remains part life laws land conflict religion extent prevented allowed practise religion must leave land way islamic law take secular law instructed follow laws land live islamic state \( one ruled \) religions islam allowed rule religious laws provided n't affect genral population n't come direct conflict state laws , \( non muslim population \) exempt islamic laws religion , fighting jihad , giving \( giving \) etc given benefit two acts military protection poor receive , got rushdie \? anyone reliable information n't left islam according islamic law \? burden proof \? benedikt fatwa n't rushdie affirm faith islam , n't go public conversion islam \? binding islamic laws publicly renounce belief islam burden mas c z e n c e n c e e g n e inc masud ahmed khan mas cadence com opinions
mas cadence com \( masud khan \) subject slavery \( sex allowed marriage \) organization cadence design systems , inc lines 39 article 1993apr12 bradford ac uk l newnham bradford ac uk \( leonard newnham \) writes oh , sounds nice ! everyone helping always smiling fluffy bunnies everywhere wake ! people like seems evident history society succeeded rely upon goodwill people n't obvious places like iran even greedy people society going attracted positions power \? sounds like recipe disaster leonard e mail l newnham bradford ac uk leonard , 'll give example father recently bought business , business price 150 , 000 pounds father approached people community help , raised 60 , 000 pounds interest free loans friends relatives muslims knew , 50 , 000 cash rest got business loan , paying muslim many helped loans help clear bank debt save intrest , example muslim community helping one another , help common identity muslims turn father helped people buying houses minimise amount intrest pay cases buy houses intrest free help fortunate community fact leonard work without fluffy bunny sight ! beauty islam mas c z e n c e n c e e g n e inc masud ahmed khan mas cadence com opinions
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject pompous ass organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 21 nntp posting host punisher caltech edu andrew newell tan102 psuvm psu edu writes sure , may fall back things , one available use worse others \? worse \? maybe , definately violation rules us govt supposedly follows oh \? motto legitimate , would read god , gods , trust would approve motto \? unless way get rid current one change wrong motto , \? would n't approve even one , beginning think something general think e \? keith
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject pompous ass organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 16 nntp posting host punisher caltech edu livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes `little' things reference germany , clearly people said similar things germany , one could name 's true gave two examples one rather anti semitism german christianity well hitler arrived system social ranks used germany austria distinguish jews rest population n't seem like little things least , orders worse motto think motto little thing lead worse things \? keith
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject morality \? \( political atheists \? \) organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 52 nntp posting host punisher caltech edu livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes explain instinctive acts moral acts , happy listen example , instinctive murder murdering would moral significance , since would nothing voluntary see , go , saying moral act significant voluntary think \? anyway , humans ability disregard instincts , intelligent beings moral , even beings mimics \? starting get point necessarily action parrot saying pretty polly n't necessarily commenting polly attaching many things term moral , think let 's try good animals species n't kill , think right \? think animals machines , nothing either right wrong \? animals species could kill , n't posters given many examples exactly , seem short memory n't arbitrary killings related sort mating ritual whatnot trying say n't act morality animals n't intelligent enough think like \? i'm saying must possibility organism 's people talking consider alternatives 's right posting replying yes , still n't understand distinctions mean consider \? small child moral \? gorilla \? dolphin \? platypus \? line drawn \? need self aware \? call mechanism seems prevent animals species \( arbitrarily \) killing \? n't find fact n't significant \? keith
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject objective morality \( political atheists \? \) organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 22 nntp posting host punisher caltech edu livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes another part thread , 've telling us goal natural morality animals survive 's right humans gone somewhat beyond though perhaps goal one self suppose omniscient told long term survival humanity requires us exterminate species , either terrestrial alien letting omniscient give information part original premise make moral \? type morality talking \? natural sense , immoral harm another species \( long n't adversely affect , guess \) keith
nanci ann miller nm0w andrew cmu edu subject new member organization sponsored account , school computer science , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 16 1993apr16 mnemosyne cs du edu nntp posting host andrew cmu edu reply 1993apr16 mnemosyne cs du edu jcopelan nyx cs du edu \( one \) writes welcome official keeper list nicknames people known alt atheism \( n't know list , \) awarded nickname buckminster next time post article , sign nickname like dave buckminster fuller thanks jim humor means never say 're sorry copeland course , list agree nickname laws laid gipu almost 2000 years ago \( know 9 written iron tablets melted \? \) since prophet gipu decree post whole list nicknames frequent posters ! nanci
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject political atheists \? organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 13 nntp posting host punisher caltech edu livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes well , chimps must system live social groups , must laws dictating undesired behavior , must laws \? quotation marks enclose laws , must rules , even instinctive ones ones , etc , surely sort random chance would lead society chaos keith
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject pompous ass organization sgi lines 20 distribution world nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article gap caltech edu , keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes `little' things reference germany , clearly people said similar things germany , one could name 's true gave two examples one rather anti semitism german christianity well hitler arrived system social ranks used germany austria distinguish jews rest population n't seem like little things least , orders worse motto think motto little thing lead worse things \? n't think little things twenty twenty hindsight , know led jon
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject objective morality \( political atheists \? \) organization sgi lines 46 distribution world nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article gap caltech edu , keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes another part thread , 've telling us goal natural morality animals survive 's right humans gone somewhat beyond though perhaps goal one self humans gone somewhat beyond , exactly \? one thread 're telling us natural morality animals survive , thread claiming omniscient definitely say right wrong omniscient use criterion \? long term survival human species , \? omniscient map definitely able assign right wrong actions \? suppose omniscient told long term survival humanity requires us exterminate species , either terrestrial alien letting omniscient give information part original premise well , original premises habit changing time , perhaps 'd like review us , tell us difference omniscient able assign right wrong actions , telling us result , make moral \? type morality talking \? natural sense , immoral harm another species \( long n't adversely affect , guess \) i'm talking morality introduced , going implemented omniscient definitely assign right wrong actions tell us type morality jon
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject slavery \( sex allowed marriage \) organization sgi lines 37 distribution world nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article 1993apr15 cadence com , mas cadence com \( masud khan \) writes leonard , 'll give example father recently bought business , business price 150 , 000 pounds father approached people community help , raised 60 , 000 pounds interest free loans friends relatives muslims knew , 50 , 000 cash rest got business loan , paying muslim many helped loans help clear bank debt save intrest , example muslim community helping one another , help common identity muslims turn father helped people buying houses minimise amount intrest pay cases buy houses intrest free help fortunate community sorry wrong banks got started first place sooner later father pals lend money someone eventually goes broke , realise hav n't managing risk well ask need quantify risk , persuade take greater loans carry since n't want worry calculations handling money , 'll reinvent interest , like good muslims , 'll call something else fact leonard work without fluffy bunny sight ! beauty islam 's john major opened new government department couple months ago help promote minority business one another cups sugar jon
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject morality \? \( political atheists \? \) organization sgi lines 93 distribution world nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article gap caltech edu , keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes explain instinctive acts moral acts , happy listen example , instinctive murder murdering would moral significance , since would nothing voluntary see , go , saying moral act significant voluntary think \? force something , morally responsible \? anyway , humans ability disregard instincts well , make mind instinctive murder \? , intelligent beings moral , even beings mimics \? starting get point necessarily action parrot saying pretty polly n't necessarily commenting polly attaching many things term moral , think let 's try good animals species n't kill , think right \? 's even correct animals species kill one another think animals machines , nothing either right wrong \? sigh wonder many times round loop think instinctive moral significance quite prepared believe higher animals , primates , beginnings moral sense , since seem exhibit self awareness animals species could kill , n't posters given many examples exactly , seem short memory n't arbitrary killings related sort mating ritual whatnot \? trying say killing animals moral significance \? natural morality trying say n't act morality animals n't intelligent enough think like \? i'm saying must possibility organism 's people talking consider alternatives 's right posting replying yes , still n't understand distinctions mean consider \? small child moral \? gorilla \? dolphin \? platypus \? line drawn \? need self aware \? blind \? think sentence means \? must possibility organism 's people talking consider alternatives would imply \? call mechanism seems prevent animals species \( arbitrarily \) killing \? n't find fact n't significant \? find fact significant jon
bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization tektronix inc , beaverton , lines 18 article news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) writes base belief atheism \? knowledge reasoning \? could n't wrong \? actually , atheism based ignorance ignorance existence god n't fall atheists n't believe pride mistake bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com said queens could stay , blew bronx away , sank manhattan sea
bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) subject yet rushdie islamic law organization tektronix inc , beaverton , lines 25 article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) writes article jkj fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes hope islamic bank something bcci , ripped many small depositors among muslim community uk elsewhere grow , childish propagandist gosh , gregg i'm pretty good reading lines , 've given precious little work refutation could maybe flesh bit \? miss full 's content virtue atheism \? bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com said queens could stay , blew bronx away , sank manhattan sea
bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) subject morality \? \( political atheists \? \) organization tektronix inc , beaverton , lines 15 article gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) writes 've saying moral behavior likely null behavior smell sig material \? bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com said queens could stay , blew bronx away , sank manhattan sea
bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) subject cruel \( political atheists \? \) organization tektronix inc , beaverton , lines 20 article gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) writes discussing relation death penalty , constitution need define words within anyone n't know cruel look dictionary \( \) , dictionary available , could gain first hand knowledge suffering one posts bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com said queens could stay , blew bronx away , sank manhattan sea
bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) subject pompous ass organization tektronix inc , beaverton , lines 20 article gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) writes `little' things reference germany , clearly people said similar things germany , one could name said things everyone know , n't going waste time repeating sounds like one knew , either looked books , avail anne frank exhibit makes small little world , take afternoon go see bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com said queens could stay , blew bronx away , sank manhattan sea
bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) subject thoughts christians organization tektronix inc , beaverton , lines 19 article andrew cmu edu pl1u andrew cmu edu \( patrick c leger \) writes ever hear baptism birth \? n't preying young , n't know , 's praying young preying young comes later , bright eyed little altar boy finds priest really wears bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com said queens could stay , blew bronx away , sank manhattan sea
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject political atheists \? organization sgi lines 31 nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article gap caltech edu , keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes well , chimps must system live social groups , must laws dictating undesired behavior , must laws \? quotation marks enclose laws , must oh , \? exactly quotation marks enclose laws , must case n't notice , 's function must wish rules , even instinctive ones ones , etc , surely sort random chance would lead society chaos perhaps chimps failed evolve cooperative behaviour died , left ones evolve behaviour , entirely chance going proclaim natural morality every time organism evolves cooperative behaviour \? natural morality bee dance \? jon
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject objective morality \( political atheists \? \) organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 44 nntp posting host lloyd caltech edu livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes humans gone somewhat beyond , exactly \? one thread 're telling us natural morality animals survive , thread claiming omniscient definitely say right wrong omniscient use criterion \? long term survival human species , \? well , 's question , n't \? goals probably obvious set goals , like happiness liberty golden rule , etc goals n't inherent defined objective system possible omniscient map definitely able assign right wrong actions \? difficult , one goals mind , absolute everyone 's intent , etc letting omniscient give information part original premise well , original premises habit changing time , perhaps 'd like review us , tell us difference omniscient able assign right wrong actions , telling us result , omniscience fine , long information given away n't resolution free problem \? interactive omniscient changes situation type morality talking \? natural sense , immoral harm another species \( long n't adversely affect , guess \) i'm talking morality introduced , going implemented omniscient definitely assign right wrong actions tell us type morality well , speaking objective system general n't mention specific goal , would necessary determine morality action keith
halat pooh bears \( jim halat \) subject islam caused believing \( genocide caused theism \) reply halat pooh bears \( jim halat \) lines 40 article 1993apr13 ultb isc rit edu snm6394 ultb isc rit edu \( n mozumder \) writes i'm saying anything happen atheism , knowledgeable one religion , good happen becoming tiresome statement coming definition , assertion islam good belief islam good therefore , believer islam produce good islam good blah blah blah 's circular gets , equally meaningless say something produces good good produces nothing definition 're application saying 's true really believe 's true 's silly conversely , say anything happen atheism , offshoot believe becomes true n't believe n't like religions i'm , islam teaches exclusion caste , suggests harsh penalties behaviors logical call punishment \( certain limits speech sex , example \) good see much pain suffering without justification , except waving hand inaccessible god , toss around word knowledgable bit knowledgeable believer except contradiction terms infer mean believer terms faith need knowledge believe faith nothing , \? jim halat
halat pooh bears \( jim halat \) subject inimitable rushdie \( anecdote islam reply halat pooh bears \( jim halat \) lines 33 article bu edu , jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) writes 'd precise rejection god leaving islam one perfectly free muslim doubt question existence god , long one reject god sure rushdie made atheism clear front sufficient number proper witnesses question regard legal issue status time crime committed 'd say problem organization , religious , idea simple speech basis crime jim halat
halat pooh bears \( jim halat \) subject inimitable rushdie \( anecdote islam reply halat pooh bears \( jim halat \) lines 37 article ursa bear com , halat pooh bears \( jim halat \) writes article bu edu , jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) writes 'd precise rejection god leaving islam one perfectly free muslim doubt question existence god , long one reject god sure rushdie made atheism clear front sufficient number proper witnesses question regard legal issue status time crime committed 'll also add impossible actually tell one rejects god therefore , choose punish talk jim halat
halat pooh bears \( jim halat \) subject silly question x tianity reply halat pooh bears \( jim halat \) lines 23 article 1993apr14 daffy cs wisc edu , mccullou snake2 cs wisc edu \( mark mccullough \) writes sorry insult , coming , wisconsin backwards never able understand people actually held bigoted backwards views came never wisconsin , though neighbor minnesota child middle atlantic \( ny , nj , pa \) found states stood 's mind california , texas , florida name obvious three however , minnesota wisconsin stuck , solely basis politics always translated extremely liberal progressive states recent trip last summer served support state 's reputation guess wisconsin probably least impression people minnesota left neighbors question head wisconsin , though , whether cause effect relationship cheese serial killers \) jim halat
robert knowles p00261 psilink com subject atheists \? ! reply 1993apr15 1 eagle wesleyan edu nntp posting host 127 0 0 1 organization kupajava , east krakatoa x mailer psilink dos \( 3 3 \) lines 26 date 15 apr 93 19 20 37 edt kmagnacca eagle wesleyan edu article netcom com , bskendig netcom com \( brian kendig \) writes c quotes deleted really looks like people idea means atheist bobby mozumder clones world thought well , explains things posted soc religion islam attached quote bobby effect atheists lying evil scum , asked commonly held idea among muslims got response asking unknown , guess tried one soc culture groups middle east south asia area \( little open islam channel \) think someone defined atheists cuz say think world created \( something like \) particle god created gods soc culture african also nice viewpoints benevolence religion especially sudan mentioned
9051467f levels unisa edu au \( desert brat \) subject keith relativist ! organization cured , discharged lines 25 article gap caltech edu , keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) writes thrown cage tiger get mauled , blame tiger \? aha ! admits ! moral relativist ! keith , start different human someone thrown 's cage \( speak \) , 'd better start posting tome decent evidence retract 'i think absolute morality' blurb weeks ago keith desert brat john j mcvey , elc eng , whyalla , uni australia , 9051467f levels unisa edu au k c darwin replies , mail wh whyalla unisa edu au disclaimer unisa hates opinions bb bb n't make rainbow less beautiful god 's name smack understand refractive mechanisms chance produce jim perry , perry dsinc com alice chains
eczcaw mips nott ac uk \( wainwright \) subject thoughts keywords dan bissell reply eczcaw mips nott ac uk \( wainwright \) organization nottingham university lines 28 article healta 145 saturn wwc edu , healta saturn wwc edu \( tammy r healy \) writes hope 're going flame please give you' given tammy person gives well balanced reasoned argument , tammy , happy discuss makes astounding claims , backed evidence must expected substantiate original author said everything opinion supportable people would simply ignored claimed many things logic seriously flawed argument christianity effort try convince atheists like believe message one take things read told pink fluffy elephants dance sugar fairy dark side jupiter would demand evidence ! adda adda wainwright dim atal llanw ! 8o \) eczcaw mips nott ac uk 8o \) mae sig 'ma ar werth !
unicorn nott ac uk \( steve lang \) subject objective values scientific accuracy \( 2000 years , say christian morality \) organization nottingham university lines 38 article dcs ed ac uk , tk dcs ed ac uk \( tommy kelly \) wrote article 1qjahh mrs horus ap mchp sni de frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes science \( real world \) basis values , way round , would wish must using mean something different way see used normally certainly using like equate real world science recognition patterns perceptions universe making qualitative quantitative predictions concerning perceptions science process modeling real world based commonly agreed interpretations observations \( perceptions \) nothing values far see values well value would rather would experience rather , values also refer meaning example computer science value 1 true , 0 false science based commonly agreed values \( interpretation observations \) , although science result values objective values set values believes applicable everyone values science objective since never fully agreed , change time values newtonian certainly different quantum mechanics steve lang slang sling slick slack shack thank think thick
9051467f levels unisa edu au \( desert brat \) subject victims various fight 's organization cured , discharged lines 30 article tekig7 pen tek com , naren tekig1 pen tek com \( naren bala \) writes list killings name religion 1 iran iraq war 1 , 000 , 000 2 civil war sudan 1 , 000 , 000 3 , riots india pakistan 1947 1 , 000 , 000 4 bangladesh 1971 1 , 000 , 000 5 america x million \( x \? \? \) 6 crusades \? \? 7 massacre jews wwii 6 3 million 8 massacre races' wwii 10 million 9 communist 20 30 million \? socialism less religion 10 catholics v protestants quite 'd imagine 11 recent bombay \( sp \? \) area \? \? 12 disease introduced tribes x million naren desert brat john j mcvey , elc eng , whyalla , uni australia , 9051467f levels unisa edu au k c darwin replies , mail wh whyalla unisa edu au disclaimer unisa hates opinions bb bb n't make rainbow less beautiful god 's name smack understand refractive mechanisms chance produce jim perry , perry dsinc com alice chains
9051467f levels unisa edu au \( desert brat \) subject keith schneider stealth poster \? organization cured , discharged lines 24 article gap caltech edu , keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) writes really , threatened motto , people use \? every time somone writes something says merely describing norm , infact norm upon programmed think motto dangerous , tells world every true american god fearing , puts fear gods n't need anyone make dangerous , good job existing currency keith desert brat john j mcvey , elc eng , whyalla , uni australia , 9051467f levels unisa edu au k c darwin replies , mail wh whyalla unisa edu au disclaimer unisa hates opinions bb bb n't make rainbow less beautiful god 's name smack understand refractive mechanisms chance produce jim perry , perry dsinc com alice chains
dfuller portal hq videocart com \( dave fuller \) subject 's mary 's fault ! organization videocart inc x newsreader tin 1 1 pl3 lines 23 pl1u andrew cmu edu \( patrick c leger \) writes know , occurred today whole christian thing blamed solely mary , 's married joseph gets knocked think ol' joe finds 's getting around \? mary comes ridiculous story god making pregnant nice attempt chris close missed conspiracy 1 step joseph knew knocked could n't let known somebody else got ol' mary would n't well popularity local circles happened feeling guilty , feeling embarrassed , decided improve images could otherwise downfall clever indeed come think gained new respect couple maybe joseph mary receive praise paid jesus dave buckminster fuller one 'o keeper nicknames \?
mangoe cs umd edu \( charley wingate \) subject origins bible organization u maryland , dept computer science , coll pk , md 20742 lines 14 adda wainwright writes stated thousands bibles discovered certain point time syllable perfect therefore meant must one copy certain time time quoted acquaintance approximately 50 years death jesus , far know , complete nonsense bible came much later c wingate peace god , peace , strife closed sod mangoe cs umd edu yet , brothers , pray one thing tove ! mangoe marv'lous peace god
perry dsinc com \( jim perry \) subject inimitable rushdie organization decision support inc lines 72 nntp posting host bozo dsinc com apologize long delay getting response posted 've working reduced hours past couple weeks son born \( day umar 's article posted , btw \) respond within couple days , turns coincidental news software caused postings site silently disappear rather going world revision original response article ra nrl navy mil khan itd itd nrl navy mil \( umar khan \) writes article dsi dsinc com perry dsinc com \( jim perry \) writes functional illiterate absolutely conception nature novel could think thing response claim rushdie made false statements life mohammed , disclaimer \( fiction , know , line fact fiction \? \) stand distinction fiction false statements however , 's writing satanic verses , people accepted version contained book yet find one single muslim convinced read book initially claimed done , none shown knowledge book superficial newsweek story might , made factual misstatements events book keep saying things like , accuse people like making ad hominem arguments repeat , said previous postings aa read tsv cover cover seen claim , might less sweeping made consider factual misstatements events book , raised past , islam clearer view thread well root yet rushdie islamic law thread statement read book , convinced inter said , want defend position , produce evidence , respond evidence posted far course , statement directly aimed , broadly number muslim posters repeated propaganda book , indicating n't read , narrowly gregg jaeger , subsequently admitted n't fact read book , skepticism least one case far , things go regarding case \) statements made concerning book clearer view posting , challenged \( interpretation , statements fact , instance rushdie women respected family islam whores \) , b \) claim \( seen \) indeed read cover cover willing try resolve disagreement critical interpretation , 'll support end , responding criticism doubt ability particular muslim go book finding passages take personal offense , upheld view tsv intended attack islam upon muslims view must defended mere assertion , want anyone take seriously trying hard rational appreciate , welcome club defending honest opinion book construed calculated \( otherwise \) insulting attack islam , parallel opinion criticism book seen baseless propaganda supported statements critical context quotes book rushdie 's essays , correspondents done course , welcome jim perry perry dsinc com decision support , inc , matthews nc opinions nominal fee ,
timmbake mcl ucsb edu \( bake timmons \) subject amusing atheists agnostics lines 76 chris faehl writes many atheists mock concept god , shocked many theists fallen low level actually believe god accuse atheists part conspiracy , without evidence rule 2 condescending population large \( e , theists \) win many people faith anytime soon ruins credibility fallacy 1 atheism faith lo ! hear faq wonderful rule 3 deleted 're correct , n't say anything conspiracy correction hard atheism faith rule 4 n't mix apples oranges say extermination mongols worse stalin \? khan conquered people unsympathetic cause atrocious stalin killed millions people loved worshipped atheist state ! ! anyone worse \? explain stalin nothing name atheism atheist irrelevant get grip , man stalin example brought indictment atheism , merely another example people kill others name 's fit occasion rule 6 rely evidence , state 're waiting opposed relying bunch black ink old paper atheism prove nothing anyone else burden dogmatic religious bullshit provide 'we' might referring , long going wait \? hard atheism nothing prove \? justify god exist \? know , 's faq , etc guess justifications compelling n't people flocking hard atheism \? 're , wo n't one discourage people hard atheism pointing sources reliable statements hard atheism second , makes think i'm defending given religion \? i'm merely recognizing hard atheism , faith yes , referring every reader post evidence poster stated relied upon \? oh yes , though i'm theist , say safely definition many theists arrogant , since boast something outside , namely , god gods principle 's hard see theists necessarily arrogant say , absolutely true , dogma says true prepared issue blanket statements theists arrogance wont atheists bzzt ! virtue innocent little pronoun , , 've issued blanket statement least apologize qualifying original statement hard atheist place atheist would call john baptist arrogant , boasted one greater \? 's many christians today arrogant \? i'm worthy ! seriously misinformed sophisticated put , theists , serious misinformation shines bake timmons , iii 's nothing higher , stronger , wholesome useful life good memory alyosha brothers karamazov \( dostoevsky \)
darice yoyo cc monash edu au \( fred rice \) subject islam scientific predictions \( genocide caused atheism \) organization monash university , melb , australia lines 41 i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) writes article 1993apr17 monu6 cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au \( fred rice \) writes \( god almighty \) created night day , sun earth \( bodies \) swim along , rounded course \( holy quran 21 33 \) hmm agrees system earth centre , planets round copernicus wrong ! n't read carefully look , see n't say anything circling anyway , moving circles oops , sorry , words , words qur'an evidence everything goes around rounded course general sense statements scientific note \( celestial bodies \) verse interpolation \( brackets \) translator 's \( incorrect , imho \) interpretation maurice bucaille 's translation \( studied arabic research qur'an science \) verse \( god \) one created night , day , sun moon travelling orbit motion \( qur'an 33 \) positive aspect verse noted dr maurice bucaille geocentrism commonly accepted notion time \( long time afterwards \) , notion geocentrism verse \( anywhere qur'an \) fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au
darice yoyo cc monash edu au \( fred rice \) subject islam scientific predictions \( genocide caused atheism \) organization monash university , melb , australia lines 60 cindy unit cindy unit \( \) writes various quotes deleted interest saving little bit bandwidth , copy koran quote \( god almighty \) created night day , sun earth \( bodies \) swim along , rounded course \( holy quran 21 33 \) pointed , quote makes claim orbits idea something orbited something held true many years koran written , fact says something orbits something hardly surprising insight concern word rounded two interpretations word 1 means circle wrong , although many believed true time koran written words , describing neighborhood universe really exists , thought time implications hope obvious everyone 2 means rounded shape , could include \( geometrical form nearly describes orbits planets \) also great insight look shapes see nature even approach square rectangle human created shapes everything nature rounded degree even flat earthers n't try claim earth rectangle children draw imaginary animals seldom give rectangular bodies seem instinctively recognize nature produces rounded shapes hence , assumption orbits planets would round hardly takes divine inspiration good remember every translation extent interpretation , \( point \) one must really go back original arabic regarding verses relevant nature , prefer use dr maurice bucaille 's translations \( book , bible , qur'an science \) general translations literal maurice bucaille translates portion verse addressing one travelling orbit motion \( also note celestial bodies first translation quoted translator 's interpolation existent original arabic , included brackets \) perhaps someone read original arabic eliminate one interpretations rate , neither one exactly impressive 're right , verses contain n't remarkable however , dr bucaille \( surgeon , 's 's dr \) thinks significant verse contains geocentric ideas , even though geocentrism rage 17th century \( \? \) \( goes rest qur'an well , 750 verses regarding nature , think remember reading \) fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au
citation ksu ksu edu \( jonathan w newton \) subject societally acceptable behavior organization kansas state university lines 35 distribution world nntp posting host citation ksu ksu edu article c5qgm3 dl8 news cso uiuc edu , cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) writes merely question basis morality moral ethical behavior societally acceptable behavior disagree society thinks irrelevant individual decides important 1 \) society think fairly obvious 2 \) define acceptable \? generally feel right , idiotic policy think 3 \) keep whatever legal moral position \? thinking mac michael cobb wo n't raise taxes middle university illinois class pay programs champaign urbana bill clinton 3rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu new taxes spending cuts 'll still 310 billion dollar deficits
jbrown batman bmd trw com subject origins bible lines 56 article 1993apr19 cs nott ac uk , eczcaw mips nott ac uk \( wainwright \) writes hi , argument origins bible lately theist acquaintance stated thousands bibles discovered certain point time syllable perfect therefore meant must one copy certain time time quoted approximately 50 years death jesus hi adda , bible scholars agree one copy book certain time time author wrote unfortunately , like works time period earlier , exists today copies cutting crap way \( ie god wrote \) could anyone answer following 1 old oldest surviving copy new testament \? parts books , scraps really , date around mid second century \( 130 \) complete books , letters , etc middle third century first complete collection new testament dates early 4th century \( 325 \) throughout period writings various early church fathers leaders quoted various scriptures writings 2 truth acquaintance 's statements \? mean someone discovered thousands bibles perfect copies dating last part 1st century ! mean thousands early manuscripts \( within dates given , letter perfect \) probable text reconstructed documents earliest original \( lost \) probably written starting sometime shortly 50 , yes 3 bible originate \? original authors call matthew , mark , luke , john , peter , paul , james , one identified 4 long piece string \? \) long make adda regards , jim b
timmbake mcl ucsb edu \( bake timmons \) subject amusing atheists agnostics lines 66 james hogan writes timmbake mcl ucsb edu \( bake timmons \) writes jim hogan \( summary jim 's stuff \) jim , i'm afraid 've missed point thus , think 'll admit atheists lot sleeve might suspected nah encourage people learn atheism see little atheists sleeves whatever might suspected actually quite meager want 'll send address learn less faith faith \? yeah , expect people read faq , etc actually accept hard atheism \? , need little leap faith , jimmy logic runs steam ! fine , people shoot foot mock idea god \? hope understand yes , jim understand thank providing healthy sarcasm would sympathies would faith bake , real glad detected sarcasm angle , really wo n't getting sympathy still , inclined sympathy somebody 's faith , might try one religion newsgroups careful , though \( make believe i'm whispering ear \) 're delusional ! jim , sorry ca n't pity , jim i'm sorry feelings denial faith need get oh well , pretend end happily ever anyway maybe start new newsgroup , alt atheist hard , wo n't much \? good job , jim bye , bake slim jim \( tm \) deleted bye , bake ! bye , bye ! bye bye , big jim n't forget 's ! \) bake timmons , iii 's nothing higher , stronger , wholesome useful life good memory alyosha brothers karamazov \( dostoevsky \)
agrino enkidu mic cl \( andres grino brandt \) subject studies book mormon distribution world organization del lobo reply agrino enkidu mic cl lines 20 hi ! n't know much mormons , want know serious independent studies book mormon n't buy 'official' story gold original taken heaven , n't read book mormon \( much work learning biblical hebrew \) , appreciate comment results study style , vocabulary , place names , internal consistency , example evidence one writer multiple writers \? mention events , places , historical persons later discovered archeologist \? andres grino brandt santiago 21 agrino enkidu mic cl chile hay mas que la , la es su
jbrown batman bmd trw com subject gulf war peace niks lines 67 article 1993apr20 bmerh85 bnr ca , dgraham bmers30 bnr ca \( douglas graham \) writes wait minute said never play chamberlain since us playing chamberlain far east timor concerned , would n't lead think argument irrelevant nothing gulf war \? actually , rather like idea perhaps rest world bombed \( maybe \) washington us invaded nicaragua , grenada , panama , vietnam , mexico , hawaii , number places wait minute , doug know better informed us never invaded nicaragua \( far know \) liberated grenada cubans protect us citizens prevent completion strategic air strip panama invaded , true \( twice century \) vietnam \? invited government vietnam \( guess invaded saudi arabia gulf war , eh \? \) mexico \? invaded mexico 2 3 times , century , missiles anyone shoot time hawaii \? liberated spain mean word invaded sort military action cross someone 's border , right 5 6 normally invaded carries connotation attacking autonomous nation \( nation invades u virgin islands , would invading virgin islands u \? \) point view , score falls 2 6 \( mexico , panama \) 's peace nik \? somebody n't masturbate \? supposed bad peace nik \? , 's someone believes peace costs words , person would supported giving hitler austria , poland could war one would allow hitler wipe jews , slavs , political dissidents areas controlled long left rest us alone supposed bad peace nik , ask \? well , depends values value life liberty , peace freedom , guess liberty freedom mean life 'd rather die fighting liberty live tyrant 's heel , yes , 's bad peace nik problem peace niks consider us like bad unconscionable would argument problem peace nik held ideals stayed conflicts issues , especially dealing national defense , willing allow us legitimately hold different point view many times resort violence name peace \( rank hypocrisy ! \) stop willing stand defend freedoms tyrants , realize requires strong national defense time get soapbox \) doug graham dgraham bnr ca opinions regards , jim b
timmbake mcl ucsb edu \( bake timmons \) subject amusing atheists agnostics lines 19 fraser sfu ca \( nancy patricia o'connor \) writes timmbake mcl ucsb edu \( bake timmons \) writes rule 4 n't mix apples oranges say extermination mongols worse stalin \? khan conquered people unsympathetic cause atrocious stalin killed millions people loved worshipped atheist state ! ! anyone worse \? 're right david koresh claimed christian yup hear millions cheering dk right ! josef stalin eat heart ! \) bake timmons , iii 's nothing higher , stronger , wholesome useful life good memory alyosha brothers karamazov \( dostoevsky \)
kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) subject risen ! organization case western reserve university lines 16 nntp posting host b64635 student cwru edu lord savior david risen ! seen alive ! spread word ! sole intention learning fly
kempmp phoenix oulu fi \( petri pihko \) subject idle questions fellow atheists organization university oulu , finland x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 59 acooper mac cc macalstr edu wrote wonder many atheists care speculate face world atheists majority rather minority group population 've thinking every since cut ties christianity surprising note large majority people , least finland , seem even though 90 population members lutheran church finland , religious people actually minority could possible many people believe god case \? seems people want seek truth fall prey pascal 's wager poor arguments small minority believe reads bible regularly majority n't care believes , n't know people n't usually allow beliefs change lifestyle , want keep virtual gate open christian would say born spirit , disturb religion something think i'm afraid society true atheist majority impossible dream religions strong appeal people , nevertheless promise life death something humans eagerly listen coupled threats eternal torture idea morality constant scrutiny cosmic cop , many people take poison smile pretend swallow \( hope god would n't notice \) \) also , many atheists would actually take stance higher value way thinking theistic way thinking typical selfish argument would lines thinking evolved inherent motivation , one , intrinsically , different , qualitatively measuring stick must drawn somewhere , cannot assign value system beliefs core , alternative apply periphery ie , expresses selfishness logic reason valued , would claim atheistic thinking higher value theistic exposition theists make unnecessary assumptions believe 've yet see good reasons believe gods , take leap faith revelation would however , value logic reasoning \? questions bears resemblance long disputed problem science mathematics works \? strong deep , like atkins , proposed perhaps , , everything mathematics usefulness criterion \? petri ' '' petri pihko kem pmp mathematics truth ! ' ' ' ' ' pihatie 15 c finou oulu fi physics rule ' ' ' sf 90650 oulu kempmp game ' finland phoenix oulu fi chemistry game
frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) subject societally acceptable behavior organization siemens nixdorf ag lines 87 nntp posting host d012s658 ap mchp sni de article asv news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) writes horus ap mchp sni de frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes article c5qgm3 dl8 news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) writes making wrong assumption basis morals \? come \? question came idea heard morals come whatever societally mandated 's one aspect morality societal morality necessarily crude broad brush stuff attempts deal necessary keep society going often 's little enthusiastic individual morality different thing , often includes societal \( society trouble \) , stronger example , people vegetarian , though eating meat may perfectly legal merely question basis morality moral ethical behavior societally acceptable behavior 1 \) society depends society n't help point irrelevant \? often answer society make rules , 's different question society make rules , 's yet another n't claim answers , either , n't think well ireland , like things us system , least principle 2 \) define acceptable \? depends , comes certain question \( see \) well , ideally n't , must consensus , imo 3 \) keep whatever legal moral position \? adopting default position people 's moral decisions none society 's business , put people jail \? condemn societies \? sometimes 's necessary hard trick recognise , equally importantly , n't interfering 's truly necessary would necessary \? right interfere \? imo , n't often interference \( e jail , force various kinds degrees \) necessary effective derive right interfere difficult question 's sort liar 's paradox force necessary freedom one possible justification people wish take away freedom n't object freedom taken away paradox n't arise n't actively wish take way anyone 's freedom introduction permissible interference causes problem either much little people seem agree level interference necessary see need justice system even define term \? consensus , guess thus get situation law often allows honour forbids , 've come believe admit n't understand statement mean , thus may legal , thus may also seen immoral law lets , n't let eating meat , example frank o'dwyer 'i'm hatching that' odwyer sse ie hens , evelyn conlon
darice yoyo cc monash edu au \( fred rice \) subject islamic genocide organization monash university , melb , australia lines 49 1 p00261 psilink com robert knowles p00261 psilink com writes date 14 apr 1993 23 52 11 gmt frank o'dwyer frank d012s658 uucp article 1993apr14 monu6 cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au \( fred rice \) writes borrowing post , mr rice 0 p00261 psilink com robert knowles p00261 psilink com writes sure democracy driving force behind massacres east timor \? certainly odd many worlds massacres occur along religious lines , independently claims democratic form government ireland northern ireland considered democracies \? would attribute problems democracy even though democracies \? motivates , religion democracy \? mr rice pointing fallacy assertion islam evil claim follow evil , asserting democracy causes massacres , read right , pointing use killing east result democracy bit weak democracy much motivation much anything indonesia remember east timor former territory forcibly annexed indonesia last heard 10 , 000 died trying keep east timor part indonesia former portuguese colony , strong catholic influence east timor recall seems bit odd yet another war fought people happen different religions purely coincidental , guess real motivation get vote make democracy work indonesia pointed secession movement also brutally dealt past indonesian government movements evidence , appears indonesian government dealt secession movements know head indonesian armed forces long time benny christian indonesia heavy handed east timor long time , even head armed forces people make indonesian government general motivated national interests , religious ones fred rice darice yoyo cc monash edu au
timmbake mcl ucsb edu \( bake timmons \) subject amusing atheists agnostics lines 29 robert knowles writes , atheists time hands \) ok , first apologize n't bother reading faq first fired imprecise flame inexcusable nickname bake timmons \? sure , robert koresh \( sic \) knowles seems good , \) n't koresh compound around noon today chance , \? remember , koresh dried sins pass beef jerky umm umm though n't , least rely keep posted 's besides beef jerky david koresh \? bake timmons , iii 's nothing higher , stronger , wholesome useful life good memory alyosha brothers karamazov \( dostoevsky \)
organization penn state university andrew newell tan102 psuvm psu edu subject christian morality 590 news cso uiuc edu lines 32 article 590 news cso uiuc edu , cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) says vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) writes article news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) writes i'm wrong , god free time correct mistake continues , supposedly proclaiming undying love eternal soul , speaks volumes volumes speaks besides fact leaves choices \? leaves choices us gives us better reason believe odd story alleged son getting killed us \? little new past thousand years , leaving us texts passed centuries meaning even wording passing interpretation course coming vested interest allowing possibility might ultimate truth maybe talking us directly , eh \? 's big god , right \? ought able make time creations loves much least enough give us words direct conversation , 's busy get around us \? maybe unquestionably miraculous works \? speaks volumes upon volumes 've never gotten chance meet guy chat
jbrown batman bmd trw com subject death penalty gulf war lines 232 article 930419 rusnews w165w mantis co uk , mathew mathew mantis co uk writes jbrown batman bmd trw com writes article rusnews w165w mantis co uk , mathew mathew mantis co uk writes yes fortunately right thinking folks like good self power therefore deemed acceptable slaughter tens even hundreds thousands iraqis order liberate oil h h war , hurrah hurrah ! number civilian iraqi deaths way exaggerated exploited anti war emotionalism liberal news media facts less iraqis died gulf war civilians war comparable size century ! let 's analyze claim little size war defined \? number participants \? geographical area \? number countries involved \? number casualties \? size armies , duration , numbers casualties absolute percentage involved , geographical area numbers countries , measures size case 'd say relevant statistic would number combatants \( total troops \) compared total casualties among total civilian population affected geographical area comparable wars talking \? vietnam korea might make good comparisons liberal news media talking \? western news general , particular american mass media cbs , nbc , abc , etc general tone news whole war one poor , poor iraqis along look precisely cruise missile blew building bits due mostly short duration coupled precise surgical bombing techniques technically possible recently suspect medical advances may something agree innocent people died blanket bombing ww2 \? n't hear bemoaning ! perhaps topic n't cropped want opinion , think blanket bombing german cities end world war two appalling act wholesale slaughter country committed centuries bomber harris hero mine perhaps maybe atomic bomb mistake 's easy say enlightened viewpoint 90 's , right \? back , war , germany japan squashed , million british already died , hundreds thousands french , couple thousand americans , millions russians , mention million jews , poles , people slavic descent german concentration camps things considered , fire bombings atomic bomb essential \( therefore justified \) bringing war quick end avoid even greater allied losses , one , n't regret war never exact science , smart bombs , 's becoming exact smaller percentage civilian casualties sometimes mistakes made targets innocents die 's war way really entrenched political rulers operating selfish interests without regard lives people , way war really sure 's people suffer reason entrenched political rulers operating selfish interests ! mean applies allies well \? \? fuss kuwait east timor , bosnia , even tibet \? iraq bad , still selling stuff couple weeks started bombing \? make claim effort justify misguided foreign policy west war evident west , especially america , misjudged hussein drastically hussein invaded kuwait threatened militarily corner significant portion world 's oil supply , stopped sure war could prevented concerted effort part west hussein invaded kuwait , still hussein responsible decision invade , strong response west required mathew , sarcasm noted completely base come sounding like complete peace nik idiot , although feel sure intent 's intent \? sound like loving christian \? well , n't good job well , 's loving allow hussein hitler nearby countries keep allow continue mass slaughter certain peoples dominion , 'd say yes , stopping hussein loving thing people involved set mind military conquest iraqi war wrong , eh \? i'm sure appeasement would worked better war , like ww2 , eh \? even mentioned appeasement \? makes think situation even remotely analogous world war two \? mentioned n't intervened , allowing hussein keep kuwait , would appeasement precisely lessons world learned ww2 motivated western alliance war letting hitler take austria stop ww2 happening , letting hussein keep kuwait would stopped eventual gulf war protect saudi arabia guess n't fought ww2 either think innocent german civilians killed dresden hamburg yes , germans human , know sure truly unfortunate followed hitler grandiose quest thousand year reich consequences tyrants like hussein stopped kind n't understand diplomacy understand point gun regret bush n't military roll baghdad , hussein still power iraqi people 's sacrifice \( mention 357 americans died \) look forward hearing comments east timor tibet say \? anything particular \? poor , poor rodney king ! ever stop think jury first trial brought back verdict guilty \? yes amongst things thought hmm , 's awful lot white people jury \? policemen trial rodney king ! ! american law deserved jury peers ! black officers involved , i'm sure would black jurors point \( allegedly racial motivations \) really shallow foaming mouth blood policemen certainly looked video tape jury looked evidence , evidence seen see bunch policemen beating someone 's lying defenceless ground , 's rather hard imagine evidence might \? 's hard imagine \? argument incredulity gained acceptance revered author constructing logical argument \? expect another revision soon \? \? \) \( kidding \) wonderful evidence , seemingly kept secret \? tell everyone \? everyone could say oh , yes , 're right , king deserved good beating , could live happily ever admit wonder neither prosecution defense talking one cannot conclude either way due silence principals law country intended protect rights accused , whether criminals cops one found guilty reasonable doubt one 's guilt , jury position assess evidence render verdict fine , i'm still finding hard imagine reasonable doubt case mean , cops certainly seem beating someone 's lying defenceless ground 's explanation \? mass hallucination \? orbital mind control lasers \? faked video footage \? tell ok certainly seemed excessive force involved frankly , original guilty verdict baffled learned prosecution first case try convict charge excessive force simple assault probably would , tried get conviction charge aggravated assault intent inflict serious bodily harm charge , news commentators said , akin attempted murder california law based prosecution asking , 's evident first jury decided officers guilty note , guilty wrong , guilty aggravated assault intent inflicting serious bodily harm seeds defeat obtaining verdict went extreme charge could facts news commentators presented true , feel guilty verdict reasonable one mathew thou shalt kill unless thou hast pretty good reason killing , case thou shalt kill , also kill anyone gets way , unfortunately cannot helped jim brown bible loving christians thanks mathew , like quote pretty funny actually \( i'm monty python fan , know kind seems vein \) course , oversimplifying moral argument make seem contradictory , know already regards , jim b loving christian \)
organization penn state university andrew newell tan102 psuvm psu edu subject free moral agency distribution na lm5 darkside osrhe uoknor edu lines 119 article lm5 darkside osrhe uoknor edu , bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) says dean kaflowitz \( decay cbnewsj cb att com \) wrote , interested original notion discussing moral free agency , god punish person believing person following nature possible person deny reason tells , god \? think 're letting atheist mythology confuse issue \( webster myth traditional legendary story belief whose truth accepted uncritically \) qualify \? indeed , 's almost oxymoronic rather amusing instance 've found atheists hold almost atheist views accepted uncritically , especially legend many trying explain basic truths , myths , n't meet also divine justice according fundamental doctrines christianity , first man sinned , time accuse referencing mythology , launch xtian mythology \( time meeting requirements myth \) salvation idea punishment based proposition everyone knows \( instinctively \? \) god exists , creator ah , everyone knows god exists fallacy 's nothing terribly difficult well known reasonably biblically literate christian controversy makes true \? holding bible rules controversy \? read faq 've read , missed something , read \( bad suggestion anyone read \) pretend know said means atheists claim know god exists n't know wants , contradict bible clearly says everyone knows authority bible claim repeat wrote sake getting across \? may trust bible , trusting n't make credible bible says everyone knows , 's clearly reason doubt bible , everyone knows alleged god 's alleged existance refuted species wide condemnation justified claim evidence existence god unknown , must deliberately ignore bible ignorance excuse 1 \) , n't ignore bible bible far universally accepted bible proof god proof people thought god \( prove even \? might writing series fiction short stories case \) assuming writers believed , thing could possibly prove believed 's ignoring problem whether interpretations biblical philosophers correct 2 \) people truly never heard bible 3 \) , read faq freedom free ignore god way free ignore gravity consequences inevitable well known cases atheist ca n't accept evidence means bzzt wrong answer ! gravity directly n't stop exerting direct rationally undeniable influence ignore god , hand , n't generally show supermarket , except god n't exert rationally undeniable influence gravity obvious gods n't secondly , human reason concept god , much , , intrinsic nature human reason always comes back question god , every generation , human reason n't always come back existance god usually come back existance god words , n't generally come back xtian god , comes back whether god , much oriental history , generally n't pop idea god much question natural forces ones world wide view , human nature makes us wonder universe came force \( \) currently control natural believe god exists religious wishful thinking said make point christianity eminently reasonable , divine justice human nature much different atheists think whether agree xtianity reasonable religions , 's certainly n't merit divine justice well , seems already believe divinity first , atheists believe things human nature second , whether atheists correct , certainly correct human nature , least , basing views completely approach try looking outside world well attempt sum humanity andrew
i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) subject genocide caused theism evidence \? organization technical university braunschweig , germany lines 21 article horus ap mchp sni de frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes absence convincing evidence theist fanatics dangerous atheist fanatics , 'll continue wary fanatics stripe think agnostic fanatics dangerous lot fair point , actually mentioned theists atheists , left agnostics mea culpa wonder light probably theist tries pass agnostic still remember post daughter singing carols feelings well way , would show marginal honesty answer many questions left open ceased respond last time \? benedikt
i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) subject islamic genocide organization technical university braunschweig , germany lines 23 article horus ap mchp sni de frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes \( deletion \) people imagine dying capitalism , imagine dying democracy , lot die lord savior jesus christ died cross sins motivation , pure simple got cites nonsense \? many people die mom \? patriotism \? freedom \? money \? kids \? fast cars swimming pools \? night kim mel gibson \? things evil \? read history book , fred tell many religions command commit genocide got nothing religion many religions say living standards religion worse \? coincidence , assume ist part absolute morality describe often \? theism strongly correlated irrational belief absolutes irrational belief absolutes strongly correlated fanatism benedikt
kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) subject \? organization case western reserve university lines 34 distribution world nntp posting host b64635 student cwru edu article dr pepper east sun com geoff east sun com \( geoff arnold sun bos r h coast near top \) writes posting provoked checking save file memorable posts first captured ken arromdee 19 feb 1990 , subject atheist \? article 473 question article , average 48 articles day last three years others noted , current posting rate kill file depressing large among posting saved early days articles following hey , might interesting read posts especially ones still regularly posts alt atheism ! loren sunlight llnl gov \( loren petrich \) nazareth israel rel \( jesus christ nazareth \) mrc tomobiki cho cac washington edu \( mark crispin \) perry apollo hp com \( jim perry \) lippard ccit arizona edu \( james j lippard \) minsky media mit edu \( marvin minsky \) interesting bunch wonder 2 \? hee hee hee ai n't going say whatever promises made broken john laws , man without honor keep given word
kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) subject cruel \( political atheists \? \) organization case western reserve university lines 33 nntp posting host b64635 student cwru edu article gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) writes whole thread started discussion whether death penalty constituted cruel punishment , forbidden us constitution yes , n't say meant cruel , \) supreme court , b \) makes sense refer constitution , quite silent meaning word cruel spent quite bit time wording constitution picked words whose meanings implied intent already looked dictionary define word n't sufficient \? need ask question founding fathers consider cruel unusual punishment \? hanging \? hanging slowing strangled would painful , physically , imagine firing squad \? note clean way die back days , etc would considered cruel definition allowed constitution founding fathers whatever promises made broken john laws , man without honor keep given word
kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) subject political atheists \? organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 14 nntp posting host b64635 student cwru edu article gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) writes well , chimps must system live social groups , must laws dictating undesired behavior must \? whatever promises made broken john laws , man without honor keep given word
i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) subject thoughts organization technical university braunschweig , germany lines 12 article bissda 4 734849678 saturn wwc edu bissda saturn wwc edu \( dan lawrence bissell \) writes arguements uses summing book whether jesus god know many n't believe , listen different perspective something gain listening others say read faq first , watch list fr weeks , come back read books matter order view first benedikt
i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) subject says apostles tortured \? organization technical university braunschweig , germany lines 17 article srvr1 engin umich edu ingles engin umich edu \( ray ingles \) writes evidence resurrection , often claimed disciples tortured death beliefs still renounce claim jesus come back dead , acts , found reference happening stephen , others apparently widely held belief come \? evidence outside bible \? evidence bible \? sure n't found early authors legends important sources found catholic church makes look like exact science benedikt
kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) subject political atheists \? organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 26 nntp posting host b64635 student cwru edu article gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes well , chimps must system live social groups , must laws dictating undesired behavior , must laws \? quotation marks enclose laws , must rules , even instinctive ones ones , etc , surely sort random chance would lead society chaos system refered moral system hav n't shown reason chimps must moral system except would like redefine everything whatever promises made broken john laws , man without honor keep given word
jcopelan nyx cs du edu \( one \) subject \? organization salvation army draft board lines 31 article dr pepper east sun com geoff east sun com writes posting provoked checking save file memorable posts first captured ken arromdee 19 feb 1990 , subject atheist \? article 473 question article , average 48 articles day last three years others noted , current posting rate kill file depressing large among posting saved early days articles following loren sunlight llnl gov \( loren petrich \) nazareth israel rel \( jesus christ nazareth \) mrc tomobiki cho cac washington edu \( mark crispin \) perry apollo hp com \( jim perry \) lippard ccit arizona edu \( james j lippard \) minsky media mit edu \( marvin minsky \) interesting bunch wonder 2 \? n't hear \? address changed reached following address branch davidian compound waco tx us think last seen posting alt messianic jim god dead actor plays part sting , words fear find way place heart history without voice reason every faith curse teach us without freedom past things get worse nothing
cjhs minster york ac uk subject free moral agency distribution world organization department computer science , university york , england lines 11 saying physical adam eve , humans direct two human beings \? cain able 's wives \? could n't sisters , e n't daughters non humans \? genesis 5 4 days adam begat seth eight hundred years , begat sons daughters chris ho stuart
jbrown batman bmd trw com subject death penalty gulf war \( long \) lines 346 article 930420 rusnews w165w mantis co uk , mathew mathew mantis co uk writes jbrown batman bmd trw com writes article 930419 rusnews w165w mantis co uk , mathew mathew mantis co uk writes liberal news media talking \? western news general , particular american mass media cbs , nbc , abc , etc general tone news whole war one poor , poor iraqis along look precisely cruise missile blew building bits odd little suffering iraqi civilians towards end war confined remaining quality newspapers true first , news media seemed new gizmos military using , mention taped video transmissions missiles targets later , especially bunker full civilians hit , changed tone seemed n't stomach reality war , innocent people really die maimed warfare 's like pro gulf war long nice clean \( smart missiles dropping military \) , pictures dead , dying , maimed civilians started cropping naive hypocrites ! innocent people died blanket bombing ww2 \? n't hear bemoaning ! discussion blanket bombing bombs deleted things considered , fire bombings atomic bomb essential \( therefore justified \) bringing war quick end avoid even greater allied losses said militarily justified seems comments understood meaning morally justified apologize evidence america knew japan surrender hiroshima \? another lie liberal media conspiracy \? often wondered 've always thought first bomb dropped japan 's island fortress good , military target second bomb could 've held back use industrial center need digress yes , heard found evidence \( war , btw \) japan seriously considering surrender first bomb unfortunately , military junta moderates rejected us 's therefore second bomb dropped unfortunate , imo , one , n't regret nuke jap jesus ! n't regret fact sometimes military decisions made affect lives innocent people regret circumstances make decisions necessary , regret suffering caused decisions fuss kuwait east timor , bosnia , even tibet \? iraq bad , still selling stuff couple weeks started bombing \? make claim effort justify misguided foreign policy west war evident west , especially america , misjudged hussein drastically hussein invaded kuwait threatened militarily corner significant portion world 's oil supply , stopped oh , see overlook using chemical weapons thousands people , threatens right drive huge gas car , well , man 's gotta go actually , fact situations existed prompted us allied action back water country took back water country , probably would n't intervene n't care , ca n't world 's coup occured kuwait \( instead invasion \) , still would n't acted would imminent danger perceived saudi arabia combination two , unprovoked invasion genocidal tyrant potential danger west 's oil interests , caused us take action 've moved paragraph later n't intervened , allowing hussein keep kuwait , would appeasement right ever hear anyone advocate course action \? setting strawman \? i'm setting strawman want argue war , logical alternative allow hussein keep kuwait diplomatic alternatives , including sanctions , ineffective guess n't fought ww2 either think innocent german civilians killed dresden hamburg yes , germans human , know sure truly unfortunate followed hitler grandiose quest thousand year reich consequences translation asking well , sense , yes probably idea end hitler would lead nation n't support hitler 's dreams conquest \? 's democratically voted policies got 43 elections 1933 , last chance german people got vote matter suffered along rest bother much \? world full evil , circumstances perfect many innocents suffer due wrongful actions others regretable , 's way perfect solutions look forward hearing comments east timor tibet say \? anything particular \? people east timor still killed dictatorship invaded country hell , even western journalists killed happening gulf war n't send bombers east timor \? n't sending bombers \? probably 're world ca n't police every country decides self destruct invade another strategic position get relief tibet , east timor , places 's paragraph moved 's intent \? sound like loving christian \? well , n't good job well , 's loving allow hussein hitler nearby countries keep allow continue mass slaughter certain peoples dominion , 'd say yes , stopping hussein loving thing people involved set mind military conquest chinese government policy mandatory abortion tibetans tibetan people rounded , tortured , executed amnesty international recently reported torture still widespread china n't stopping \? fact , actively sucking trading freely \? tell could stop 'll support , one , agree present us policy sucking put agree deplorable poor , poor rodney king ! ever stop think jury first trial brought back verdict guilty \? yes amongst things thought hmm , 's awful lot white people jury \? policemen trial rodney king ! ! , surely 's irrelevant 's trial \? supposed represent cross section population \? supposed reflect population locale trial held \? \( normally crime committed unless one party convince judge change order \) i'm expert california law , even us law , seems way system set criticize system , let 's unfounded allegations racial prejudice thrown around american law deserved jury peers ! saying black people peers white people \? , point fact blacks first jury rodney king black totally irrelevant point \( allegedly racial motivations \) really shallow idea people tried jury people like really stupid trials jury entirely made nazis \? germans , perhaps peers n't mean thing , like murderers judge murderers means people station life , presumably better position understand 's motivation \( \) foaming mouth blood policemen certainly looked video tape jury looked evidence , evidence seen see bunch policemen beating someone 's lying defenceless ground , 's rather hard imagine evidence might \? 's hard imagine \? argument incredulity gained acceptance revered author constructing logical argument \? 're talking logical argument 're talking court law faq points , fallacious arguments viewed fallacies court law ok , granted however , using reasoning part logical argument discussion court law facts news commentators presented true , feel guilty verdict reasonable one talking earlier bias liberal media conspiracy \? media totally monolithic even though prevailing liberal bias , programs macneil lehrer news hour try give balanced fair reporting news even conservative sources know look \( hurrah rush ! \) btw , never used word conspiracy n't accept \( without far evidence \) theories liberal conspiracy attempting take news sources thou shalt kill unless thou hast pretty good reason killing , case thou shalt kill , also kill anyone gets way , unfortunately cannot helped jim brown bible loving christians thanks mathew , like quote pretty funny actually \( i'm monty python fan , know kind seems vein \) course , oversimplifying moral argument make seem contradictory , know already ha ha , serious , atheist , arguing killing innocent people , supposed christian , arguing 's ok kill innocent people long get guilty ones well hardly n't say 's good thing tm kill innocent people end unfortunately , n't live perfect world perfect solutions one going resist tyranny , innocent people sides going suffer die n't say ok unfortunate , sometimes necessary , moral relativist , arguing saturation bombing german cities end world war ii \( far see \) evil unnecessary act would agree evil sense caused much pain suffering i'm sure unnecessary say conclusion arrived evaluating factors involved perhaps unnecessary \( let 's say \) know n't mean make decision bomb n't see necessary rarely one full known consequences action making decision time may seemed necessary enough go ahead n't assume feel bombing morally justified n't ! n't condemn make difficult decision difficult circumstances , criticised moral relativism past , arguing position judge morality allied actions end war certainly position moral relativist , absolutist , position judge , defer judgment arguing actions need assessed particular context time , might moral moral wrong neither moral seemed necessary making decisions bring quick end war simply refuse condemn decision 's christian love \? 's absolute morality \? oh , quick discard suits ivan would say , jesus would puke ! one day stand jesus give account every word action even discourse forum understand full ramifications , prepared n't believe make claim mathew btw , reason brought blanket bombing germany bemoaning iraqi civilian casualties deplorable yet blanket bombing instituted bombing n't accurate enough hit industrial military targets decisive way method time gulf war , precision bombing norm point , make big stink relatively civilian casualties resulted spite precision bombing , many civilians \( proportionately \) died blanket bombing ww2 \? even precision bombing , mistakes happen civilians suffer less civilians suffered war history ! many iraqi civilians went lives minimal interference allied air raids stories hundreds thousands iraqi civilian dead plain bunk yes , bunk us lost 230 , 000 servicemen ww2 four years majority directly involved fighting ! expected swallow hundreds thousands civilian iraqis died war lasting 2 months ! allies using precise bombs ever created ! hogwash hundreds thousands iraqi civilians died , due actions hussein took people , due allied bombing regards , jim b
timmbake mcl ucsb edu \( bake timmons \) subject amusing atheists agnostics lines 32 maddi hausmann chirps timmbake mcl ucsb edu \( bake timmons \) writes first , seem reasonable guy try honest include sentence afterwards honest , ended like , swear ! 's nice hmmmm recognize warning signs alternating polite rude coming newsgroup huge chip shoulder calls people names makes nice whirrr click whirrr forgot third equality whirrr click whirrr see whirr click whirr frank o'dwyer might also contained shell pop stack determine whirr click whirr killfile keith allen schneider frank closet theist o'dwyer maddi mad sound geek hausmann whirrr click whirrr bake timmons , iii 's nothing higher , stronger , wholesome useful life good memory alyosha brothers karamazov \( dostoevsky \)
kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) subject islam scientific predictions \( genocide caused atheism \) organization case western reserve university lines 14 nntp posting host b64635 student cwru edu article 1993apr19 monu6 cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au \( fred rice \) writes positive aspect verse noted dr maurice bucaille geocentrism commonly accepted notion time \( long time afterwards \) , notion geocentrism verse \( anywhere qur'an \) notion heliocentric , even either sole intention learning fly
timmbake mcl ucsb edu \( bake timmons \) subject amusing atheists anarchists lines 117 mccullou whipple cs wisc edu writes turn went back reread post attack atheism , say agnosticism n't funny atheism nowhere imply agnostic , weak atheist people post inflammatory remarks theists , reasonable assumption sorry , 're right clearly state rule 2 condescending population large \( e , theists \) win many people faith anytime soon ruins credibility condescending population large \? stating something happened true long time , could n't believe people actually believed god idea alien concept trying win people faith put faith religion non issue attitude never even occurred believe atheist default guess could say common form condescending rational versus irrational attitude one accepted assumption god \( \) , consider faiths irrational simply assumption \( \) contradict assumption , would say 's lack consistency know 'll get faith positive belief god exist closed , logical argument , many rational people problems logic \? , probably like , seem soft atheist sorry flamage line atheists something sleeves seemed imply sorry , reading much clipper project lately , paranoia may \) clipper project btw \? rule 4 n't mix apples oranges say extermination mongols worse stalin \? khan conquered people unsympathetic cause atrocious stalin killed millions people loved worshipped atheist state ! ! anyone worse \? many rulers done similar things past , stalin plenty documentation blame evidence early european rulers ruled iron fist much like stalin 's threw numbers , sick hearing stalin example example n't apply managed get angry post appeared attack forms atheism might appeared attack atheism general , point mass killing happens sorts reasons people hate wave whatever flag justify , cross hammer stalin example important 's still widely era people want forget also people really love ideas , even wrought evidence referring lack evidence negative evidence say claim pink crows never seen pink crow , n't mean could n't exist , person claims pink crows , even though admits n't able capture one get photo , find one etc sense evidence believe existence pink crows saying look evidence look suppossed evidence deity , show flawed , n't show theists want show , go first , pink crows unicorns elves arguments world sway people , simply accept analogy \? one big reasons many , many people want something beyond life pretend n't want , one accept even want sometimes nothing unique example people want god love truth proven , logically \? , namely , god gods principle 's hard see theists necessarily arrogant makes sense seem arrogant make claim previous refutation still stands , believe may another one net john baptist boasted jesus many people find hard see behavior arrogant many christians know also boast way , still necessarily see arrogance course , know arrogant christians , doctors , teachers well technically , might consider person originally made given claim arrogant , jesus , instance talking atheism strong atheism \? talking weak atheism believe , refuse claim atheism lack belief used good ol' occam 's razor make final rejection deity , , see things , even present equal , find theist argument plausible speak strong atheism also often find evidence supporting faith subjective , , say , evidence supporting love truth subjective believe answered apologize \( stated \) incorrect assumption theism , saw nothing indicate agnostic , another newbie christian net trying get cheap shots apology necessary \) bake timmons , iii 's nothing higher , stronger , wholesome useful life good memory alyosha brothers karamazov \( dostoevsky \)
spbach lerc nasa gov \( james felder \) subject help god court \? organization nasa lewis center lines 35 distribution world reply spbach lerc nasa gov nntp posting host lerc nasa gov article psuvm psu edu , andrew newell tan102 psuvm psu edu writes article 1993apr9 1885 daffy cs wisc edu , mccullou snake2 cs wisc edu \( mark mccullough \) says article monack helium monack helium gas uug arizona edu \( david n monack \) writes another issue request required help god part oath , theistic jury may prejudiced testimony even though atheism probably relevant case recommended procedure requesting alternate oath affirmation \? dave sorry using follow respond , server dropped weeks worth news could n't keep asked swear help god say , ask one jesus , allah , , , odin get specific n't obnoxious , humbly ask , sit back watch fun james l felder sverdrup technology , inc phone 216 891 4019 nasa lewis research center cleveland , ohio 44135 email lerc nasa gov people drink fountain knowledge , people gargle
cfaehl vesta unm edu \( chris faehl \) subject thoughts organization university new mexico , albuquerque lines 12 distribution world nntp posting host vesta unm edu keywords dan bissell article healta 145 saturn wwc edu , healta saturn wwc edu \( tammy r healy \) writes deletia wrt pathetic posting hope 're going flame please give you' given n't extended us courtesy 've shown us , n't get pie tammy , respect beliefs n't try stamp scorn posters whose sole purpose appears evangelize tammy
mangoe cs umd edu \( charley wingate \) subject says apostles tortured \? lines 9 traditions church hold apostles \( meaning 11 surviving disciples , matthias , paul \) , except john tradition understood read early church writings bible scriptures c wingate peace god , peace , strife closed sod mangoe cs umd edu yet , brothers , pray one thing tove ! mangoe marv'lous peace god
spbach lerc nasa gov \( james felder \) subject thoughts organization nasa lewis center lines 100 distribution world reply spbach lerc nasa gov nntp posting host lerc nasa gov article 734849678 saturn wwc edu , bissda saturn wwc edu \( dan lawrence bissell \) writes first want start right say i'm christian makes sense one read tony campollo 's book liar , lunatic , real thing \? \( might little title , writes book anyway part effort destroy christianity , process became christian sounds like saying part conspiracy organization belong \? name \? book says jesus either liar , crazy \( modern day koresh \) actually said logic alert artificial many possible explainations could never existed good points made group impossible jc amalgam number different myths , comes mind reasons would n't liar follows would die lie \? would n't people able tell liar \? people gathered around kept , many gathered hearing seeing someone healed call fool , believe heal people logic alert argument incredulity hard believe n't mean n't true liars , look koresh site followers n't think fake shown willing die giving getting shot , koresh shown die believes far healing goes right healing attributed consistent different gospels one healing done faith healers pull today seems early gospels n't , stories got bigger appeal better niether lunatic would entire nation drawn someone crazy doubtful , fact rediculous example anyone drawn david koresh obviously fool , logical people see right away therefore since n't liar lunatic , must real thing might existed , number things logical use flawed logic like fall \( tri , quad , etc \) valid , proceeding steps , person shows conclusively alternatives possible everyone agrees given set indeed , arguments among alternatives , one mostly likely true deduced excluding possible alternatives however , shown set inclusive , conclusions bases incomplete set invalid , even true choice one original choices given least one valid alternative , conclusion jc real mccoy n't one two alternative longer valid things note fulfilled loads prophecies psalms , isaiah elsewhere 24 hrs alone betrayal crucifixion n't bible moment , next time write use jc rabbi knew prophecies would n't great shakes make sure one list actions would prophecy would set clear explicit prophecies jc absolutely knowledge , yet anyway n't think people understand christian certainly see lot churches rather think way life , total sacrafice everything god 's sake loved us enough die save us hey ca n't , god inspires us turn lives 's tuff people n't want , real christian would something strong persevere like weight lifting guitar playing , drums , whatever takes time n't rush one day , christianity whole life going church week , helping poor people box everything time units work time , sports , tv , social life god boxes carried us boxes created agree anyone buys load mythology take says seriously , says must total way life little respect n't myth true , true picking choosing see lot leaves bad taste mouth jim james l felder sverdrup technology , inc phone 216 891 4019 nasa lewis research center cleveland , ohio 44135 email lerc nasa gov people drink fountain knowledge , people gargle
edm twisto compaq com \( ed mccreary \) subject thoughts reply healta saturn wwc edu 's message fri , 16 apr 1993 02 51 29 gmt organization compaq computer corp healta 145 saturn wwc edu lines 47 fri , 16 apr 1993 02 51 29 gmt , healta saturn wwc edu \( tammy r healy \) said hope 're going flame please give you' given courteous therefore received courtesy return person instead posted one worst arguments ever seen made pro christian people 've known several would laugh face presented argument let 's ignore fact 's true moment \( nice word maddi , original real word \? \) concentrate liar , lunatic part argument claims one would follow liar , let alone thousands people look l ron , probably , think mostly liar con artist look many thousands people follow scientology think baker 's along several lie time , look number follower lunatics , best example hitler obviously insane , advisors certainly thought yet whole country came close ruling europe many germans gave lives \? day followers i'm amazed people still try use argument 's obviously wrong ed mccreary , edm twisto compaq com , laughter , would tao \( \) ' \( \)
edm twisto compaq com \( ed mccreary \) subject thoughts christians reply bobbe vice ico tek com 's message 16 apr 93 05 10 18 gmt organization compaq computer corp lines 26 16 apr 93 05 10 18 gmt , bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) said rb article andrew cmu edu pl1u andrew cmu edu \( patrick c leger \) writes ever hear baptism birth \? n't preying young , n't know rb rb , 's praying young preying young comes rb later , bright eyed little altar boy finds rb priest really wears thing 'll never forget day accidently walked priests sitting around drinking beer watching football kind changed opinion bit n't seem menacing ed mccreary , edm twisto compaq com , laughter , would tao \( \) ' \( \)
edm twisto compaq com \( ed mccreary \) subject victims various fight 's reply 9051467f levels unisa edu au 's message 12 apr 93 21 36 33 organization compaq computer corp tekig7 pen tek com 1993apr12 levels unisa edu au lines 12 12 apr 93 21 36 33 , 9051467f levels unisa edu au \( desert brat \) said tdb 12 disease introduced tribes x million fair , going happen eventually given time , americans would reached europe thing would happened matter got together first ed mccreary , edm twisto compaq com , laughter , would tao \( \) ' \( \)
mathew mathew mantis co uk subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization mantis consultants , cambridge uk x newsreader rusnews v1 01 lines 13 frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes article 1993apr15 abo fi mandtbacka finabo abo fi \( mats andtbacka \) writes objective values \? please specific , importantly , motivate 'll take wild guess say freedom objectively valuable yes , whose freedom \? world general n't seem value freedom tibetans , example mathew
mathew mathew mantis co uk subject koresh god ! organization mantis consultants , cambridge uk x newsreader rusnews v1 01 lines 5 latest news seems koresh give 's finished writing sequel bible mathew
edm twisto compaq com \( ed mccreary \) subject \? reply acooper mac cc macalstr edu 's message 15 apr 93 11 17 13 0600 organization compaq computer corp 1993apr15 mac cc macalstr edu lines 18 article senator bedfellow mit edu , athena mit edu \( tom bruno \) writes stuff deleted brings point posting many people around alt atheism since 1990 \? 've done stay top stuff deleted hmm , usenet got 's collective hooks around 1987 right switched engineering 'd say started reading alt atheism around 1988 89 've probably posted 50 messages time since though 'll never understand people find time write much barely keep ed mccreary , edm twisto compaq com , laughter , would tao \( \) ' \( \)
nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \( david nye \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization university wisconsin eau claire lines 38 reply frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) i'm one people know word objective means put next word morality assume idiom cannot defined separate terms give try objective morality morality built objective values dictionary philosophy , anthony flew objectivism belief certain moral truths would remain true whatever anyone everyone thought desired instance , 'no one ever deliberately inflict pain another simply take pleasure might thought plausible example even world rejected , contention remains true , '5 7 remains correct even one left count problem objectivist determine status moral truths method established accept judgements reports relate ought \( see naturalistic fallacy \) cannot proved facts nature world analytic , since would involve lack action guiding content 'one ought always right thing' plainly true virtue involved practical guide action \( see analytic synthetic \) point objectivist may talk 'self evident , deny subjectivist 's claim self evidence mind beholder \? , left claim moral judgements true \? subjectivist may well feel remains moral judgements would wish associate hold moral opinion , suggests , know something true preferences regarding human activity david nye \( nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \) midelfort clinic , eau claire wi patently absurd whoever wishes become philosopher must learn frightened absurdities bertrand russell
jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) subject inimitable rushdie organization boston university physics department lines 35 article 1993apr15 st andrews ac uk nrp st andrews ac uk \( norman r paterson \) writes n't think 're right germany daughter born n't think german rights eg vote live \( beyond rights ec citizens \) british citizen virtue , 's full citizenship example , n't think children could british virtue way fairly sure could obtain citizenship making application might require immigration germany , almost certain applied citizenship inevitable case interesting sentence , fact , many people try come us children born human rights us compare islamic country respect \? people go iran children human rights \? would \? interesting propaganda purposes said several times n't consider iran particularly exemplary good islamic state might talk rights people capitalist secular third world countries give examples lack rights third world countries broadly say , example , central american secular capitalist countries whose govt 's us supports amnesty international pointed human rights gregg
cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization university illinois urbana lines 39 vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) writes article news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) writes base belief atheism \? knowledge reasoning \? could n't wrong \? actually , atheism based ignorance ignorance existence god n't fall atheists n't believe pride mistake know 's based ignorance , could n't wrong \? would wrong fall trap mentioned \? also , may , heck talking n't keep comments see line thoughts \? mac bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com said queens could stay , blew bronx away , sank manhattan sea michael cobb wo n't raise taxes middle university illinois class pay programs champaign urbana bill clinton 3rd debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu new taxes spending cuts 'll still 310 billion dollar deficits
edm twisto compaq com \( ed mccreary \) subject koresh god ! reply mathew 's message fri , 16 apr 1993 14 15 20 0100 organization compaq computer corp rusnews w165w mantis co uk lines 12 fri , 16 apr 1993 14 15 20 0100 , mathew mathew mantis co uk said latest news seems koresh give 's finished writing sequel bible also , 's 16th feds get tax evasion \? n't remember hearing running post office last night ed mccreary , edm twisto compaq com , laughter , would tao \( \) ' \( \)
mcgoy unicorn acs ttu edu \( david mcgaughey \) subject pope jewish ! organization texas tech university lines 12 west next02cville wam umd edu \( stilgar \) writes pope jewish always thought pope bear know , little saying bear shit woods \? pope catholic \? must connection two lines !
ccsua ctstateu edu subject bible quiz lines 12 nntp posting host ccsua ctstateu edu organization yale university , department computer science , new , ct article kmr4 po cwru edu , kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) writes article usenet ins cwru edu cleveland freenet edu \( frank \) writes sun starts orbit earth accept bible since atheism mean trashing religions \? must god son pope john paul
bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) subject islamic authority women nntp posting host okcforum osrhe edu organization okcforum unix users group x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 37 benedikt rosenau \( i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \) wrote object belief said perfect make believers act certain way observe n't , contradiction something defined cannot exist believe exist secondly , better explanations believe existence object belief read faq already \? benedikt benedikt , ca n't recall anyone claiming god makes anyone act way , think 're attempting manufacture contradiction god said require certain behavior , compulsion believer 's sense duty standard conduct exist , free ignore misunderstand distort whatever ways find convenient , response god 's way used question god 's existence behavior believers completely separate question god 's existence nothing contradictory say something defined cannot exist , really asking much would existence depend grammar really say something poorly defined , insufficient decide anything \( confusion course \) point better reasons phenomenon belief object belief may lead rat 's nest unnecessary complexity think know 're implying , 'd like see version better alternative bill
bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) subject islamic authority women nntp posting host okcforum osrhe edu organization okcforum unix users group x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 30 scott sauyet \( ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu \) wrote regardless people 's hidden motivations , stated reasons many wars include religion course always claim real reason economics , politics , ethnic strife , whatever fact remains justification many wars conquer want say , instance , economics chief cause crusades , could certainly make point someone could come along demonstrate really something else , manner show really religion could manner eliminate possible causes crusades scott , n't make outrageous claims religion 's affecting history , , point many claims made wrong nothing validate atheism time made statement religion sole cause anything , done point make kind claim mistaken , usually deliberately credit religion awesome power dominate history misunderstand human nature , function religion course , history believe distort history way know exaclty 're , affect bill
bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) subject thoughts nntp posting host okcforum osrhe edu organization okcforum unix users group x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 12 james felder \( spbach lerc nasa gov \) wrote logic alert argument incredulity hard believe n't mean n't true liars look koresh cite whole basis great many rejecting christian account things words st madalyn murrey o'hair , face folks , 's silly okay disbelieve incredulity admit 's fallacy \? bill
bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) subject thoughts nntp posting host okcforum osrhe edu organization okcforum unix users group x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 18 kent sandvik \( sandvik newton apple com \) wrote article vice ico tek com , bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) wrote someone spank i'm wrong , n't lord , liar , lunatic originate c lewis \? 's campollo fellow anyway \? think , n't clear connection believe , absurd notion one original christians \( origen \? \) similar statement attributed anselm , believe may understand cases reason somewhat less exalted anyone posting could accept , means neither statement properly analysed bill
bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) subject thoughts christians nntp posting host okcforum osrhe edu organization okcforum unix users group x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 17 ed mccreary \( edm twisto compaq com \) wrote 16 apr 93 05 10 18 gmt , bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) said rb article andrew cmu edu pl1u andrew cmu edu \( patrick c leger \) writes ever hear baptism birth \? n't preying young , n't know rb rb , 's praying young preying young comes rb later , bright eyed little altar boy finds rb priest really wears statement atheist cause way , surely 's intended wit bill
bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) subject thoughts christians nntp posting host okcforum osrhe edu organization okcforum unix users group x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 24 kent sandvik \( sandvik newton apple com \) wrote good point , think average people take christianity much fear , , quite simply , way improve social life , get involved american culture , kids immigrants example since overwhelming major religion western world \( form \) , simply choice people take bored want something new lives , new , ordinary seems little weak , long n't hurt anybody social pressure indeed important factor majority passive christians world today case early christianity promise heavenly afterlife , independent social status , also promising gift \( reason slaves non romans accepted religion rapidly \) hypothetical proposition , say , 's fact , cite sources amateur sociologist sub branch however , would suffice alert screwing around bill
bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) subject nicknames nntp posting host okcforum osrhe edu organization okcforum unix users group x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 36 maddi hausmann \( madhaus netcom com \) wrote jcopelan nyx cs du edu \( one \) writes could start posters annoy us , like bobby bill wish command bill shit connor bobby circular mozumder i'm sure new exactly appropriate , comes close considering wade make one insightful , dead money , agree something 's getting stirred would like believe characterization respond would kinder though , insist also surprised find offended anyone , cases 's unavoidable say anything fairness important , check contributions , n't generous patient , veritable paragon \? oh , btw , n't mind paired bobby admire many would well hostile environment think i'm offensive \? ! read posts love kisses , bill p name conner , connor point humiliating innocents
bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) subject islamic authority women nntp posting host okcforum osrhe edu organization okcforum unix users group x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 8 keith ryan \( kmr4 po cwru edu \) wrote nice cop bill i'm sure 're right , idea refer would mind explaining \? bill
bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) subject death penalty \( political atheists \? \) nntp posting host okcforum osrhe edu organization okcforum unix users group x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 14 fascinating atheists argue abortion , defend homosexuality means population control , insist values biological condemn war capital punishment according benedikt , something contardictory , cannot exist , case means atheists suppose would like understand atheist object war \( excellent means controlling population growth \) , capital punishment , i'm sorry logic escapes capital punishment , questioned , propriety killing punishment \? basis \? bill
bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) subject americans evolution nntp posting host okcforum osrhe edu organization okcforum unix users group x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 30 robert singleton \( bobs thnext mit edu \) wrote sure n't mutually exclusive , lends weight \( e increases running estimates posterior probability \) atheist 's pitch partition , thus necessarily reduces quantity theist 's pitch `divine component' falls prey 's razor , phenomenon satisfactorily explained without , independent evidence component detail next post occam 's razor law nature , way analyzing argument , even , interesting often 's cited end seems odd religion simultaneously condemned primitive , simple minded unscientific , anti intellectual childish , yet condemned complex \( occam 's razor \) , scientific explanation things much , apparently , simpler non essential , know \? considering even scientists n't fully comprehend science due complexity diversity maybe william occam performed , kept frontal lobe thrown everything else away confusing , i'm sure one straighten tough bill
madhaus netcom com \( maddi hausmann \) subject amusing atheists agnostics organization society putting things top things lines 40 timmbake mcl ucsb edu \( bake timmons \) writes ok , disproved one thing , failed nail see , nowhere post claim something must believed three possibilities 1 \) god exists 2 \) god exist 3 \) n't know attack strong atheism , \( 2 \) since \( 3 \) , guess said makes weak atheist snip first , seem reasonable guy try honest include sentence afterwards honest , ended like , swear ! hmmmm recognize warning signs alternating polite rude coming newsgroup huge chip shoulder calls people names makes nice whirrr click whirrr clam bake timmons bill shit connor q e whirr click whirr frank o'dwyer might also contained shell pop stack determine whirr click whirr killfile keith allen schneider frank closet theist o'dwyer mind reels maybe 're bobby mozumder maddi hausmann madhaus netcom com centigram communications corp san jose california 408 428 3553 kids , please n't try home remember , post professionally
subject death penalty \( political sham cs arizona edu \( shamim zvonko mohamed \) organization u arizona cs dept , tucson lines 29 article 1993apr19 abo fi mandtbacka finabo abo fi \( mats andtbacka \) writes 930419 rusnews w165w mantis co uk mathew writes wonder noam chomsky reading \? could wrong , actually talking outright government control media , aka censorship \? n't , quick one stop shopping reference works 'll tell , short , argue \? manufacturing consent , film media alternative movie source may book local alternative theatre , contact films transit international sales jan 402 notre dame e montreal , quebec canada tel \( 514 \) 844 fax \( 514 \) 844 telex \( us readers call films 212 274 1989 \) shamim mohamed uunet , noao , cmcl2 ! arizona ! shamim shamim cs arizona edu take cross garlic 's mezuzah 's jewish page koran 's muslim 's zen buddhist , 're member league programming freedom write lpf uunet uu net
healta saturn wwc edu \( tammy r healy \) subject requests lines 53 organization walla walla college lines 53 article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) writes bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) subject requests date 19 apr 93 18 25 08 gmt article mailer cc fsu edu mayne cs fsu edu writes \( excess stuff deleted \) however , seems local church elder getting revelations god devastating quake scheduled level area may 3rd independent several friends , apparently similar revelations 5 7 quake , fact , response request lot seeking sign god veracity visions none would terribly interesting , except amount stir created area many , many people taking claims seriously making plans target date local religious radio station devoted 4 hours discussion topic even called one live broadcasts tell host would full account conversion may 4th , provided family survived devastation ruin invariably follow quake bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com said queens could stay , blew bronx away , sank manhattan sea know similar incident 3 years ago \( profession \) named browning predicted earthquake would hit new madrid fault dec 3 schools missouri fault line actually cancelled school day many people evacuated new madrid towns teh would n't suprised journalists area residents course , teh earthquake never occured know \? used live southern illinois middle school built directly fault line still school laughed poor idiots believed prediction \) \) \) \) bob , 're wanting excuse convert christianity , gonna look elsewhere tammy trim healy
healta saturn wwc edu \( tammy r healy \) subject studies book mormon lines 31 organization walla walla college lines 31 article enkidu mic cl agrino enkidu mic cl \( andres grino brandt \) writes agrino enkidu mic cl \( andres grino brandt \) subject studies book mormon date sun , 18 apr 1993 14 15 33 cst hi ! n't know much mormons , want know serious independent studies book mormon n't buy 'official' story gold original taken heaven , n't read book mormon \( much work learning biblical hebrew \) , appreciate comment results study style , vocabulary , place names , internal consistency , example evidence one writer multiple writers \? mention events , places , historical persons later discovered archeologist \? andres grino brandt santiago 21 agrino enkidu mic cl chile hay mas que la , la es su n't think book mormon supposedly translated biblical hebrew 've read prophet joseph smith gold tablets sort egyptian ish language former mormons , please post tammy trim healy
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject societal basis morality organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 18 article news cso uiuc edu , cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) wrote expect others follow notion societally mandated morality \? pardon extremism , could n't murder brother say exercising rights saw , felt good , n't want anyone forcing morality , n't follow morality \? good statement ! apply empirical measurements define exact social morals \? morals based social rules \? ancient religious doctrines \? seems never common single denominator defining morals , defining absolute objective morals doomed fail long humans incredible talent creative thinking cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject genocide caused atheism organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 26 article 1993apr19 monu6 cc monash edu au , darice yoyo cc monash edu au \( fred rice \) wrote fred , problem reasoning us non believers need better measurement tool state person real muslim christian , person b know tools , anyone could believe religion , misuse power otherwise make bad pr clearly shows sore points religion words show movement ca n't spin , , davidians , \) n't think system exists think reason condition known free humans got anybody , using free , tell lies half truths system thus abuse ends n't think tools exist either addition , 's thing objective information together , looks like religion doctrines could freely misused whatever purpose reminds whispering ca n't trust anything bother cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject free moral agency distribution na organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 20 article lm5 darkside osrhe uoknor edu , bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) wrote question moral free agency , given christian position , freedom acknowledge god morality practice direct outgrowth excercise freedom free ignore god way free ignore gravity consequences inevitable well known cases atheist ca n't accept evidence means prefers accept , says nothing evidence agree , hard feeling believing grand grand mother told elves dancing outside early mornings preferred accept , even statement provided truth life hard cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject yet rushdie islamic law organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 29 article mvo blaze cs jhu edu , arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \( ken arromdee \) wrote article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) writes think many reading group would also benefit knowing deviant view 've articulated \( may true view khomeini \) basic principles islam point ov view atheist , see claim khomeini n't practicing true islam i'm sure would said , member neither group , supposed able tell one two really true muslim \? fred rice answered already early posting problem argument know real believer may faking something known person \( god \) assumption anyone claims believer believer necessarily true words seems nobody could define true false muslim back square one , khomeini hussein still innocent ca n't defined evil good islamic worshippers cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject islamic authority women organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 21 article 1993apr19 monu6 cc monash edu au , darice yoyo cc monash edu au \( fred rice \) wrote problem argument know real believer may faking something known person \( god \) assumption anyone claims believer believer necessarily true still leaves door totally open khomeini , hussein et rest could still considered true muslims , ca n't judge , something god person apply rule well atheists agnostics , n't know belief , something god hoopla khomeini real muslim , hoopla atheists real human beings \? cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
robert knowles p00261 psilink com subject suggestion resources faq reply liverpool ac uk nntp posting host 127 0 0 1 organization kupajava , east krakatoa x mailer psilink dos \( 3 3 \) lines 34 date mon , 19 apr 1993 15 01 10 gmt bruce stephens bruce liverpool ac uk think good book summarizing comparing religions would good confess n't know indeed 's checked faq see one i'm sure alert reader think list books suffers far much christian based agree traffic nature \( although islamic references might good \) still think overview would nice one book presents fairly unbiased account many religions called man 's religions john b textbook class comparative religion thing decent bibliographies chapter jumping point reading n't compare religions directly describes one individually notes similarities nothing read could even remotely described christian based fact , christianity mercifully consumes 90 nearly 600 pages book divided according major regions world began \( india , east asia , near east \) nothing new world religions , , , etc stuff people kill nowadays older religions snuffed along way like old stuff , couple books called ancient near east james b pritchard pretty cool got epic , code , stuff way back men gods gods men essential reading anyone wishes make religion make sound real good
robert knowles p00261 psilink com subject amusing atheists agnostics reply timmbake mcl nntp posting host 127 0 0 1 organization kupajava , east krakatoa x mailer psilink dos \( 3 3 \) lines 18 date 19 apr 93 23 23 26 gmt bake timmons timmbake mcl ucsb edu , atheists time hands \) ok , first apologize n't bother reading faq first fired imprecise flame inexcusable nickname bake timmons \? n't koresh compound around noon today chance , \? remember , koresh dried sins pass beef jerky umm umm
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject objective values scientific accuracy \( 2000 years , say christian morality \) organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 17 article 930419 rusnews w165w mantis co uk , mathew mathew mantis co uk wrote unicorn nott ac uk \( steve lang \) writes values also refer meaning example computer science value 1 true , 0 false lisp true , need define one statement defined one polarity , states considered polarity meaning nil , false true \) \? cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
nanci ann miller nm0w andrew cmu edu subject 's mary 's fault ! organization sponsored account , school computer science , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 28 portal hq videocart com nntp posting host po5 andrew cmu edu reply portal hq videocart com dfuller portal hq videocart com \( dave fuller \) writes nice attempt chris close missed conspiracy 1 step joseph knew knocked could n't let known somebody else got ol' mary would n't well popularity local circles happened feeling guilty , feeling embarrassed , decided improve images could otherwise downfall clever indeed come think gained new respect couple maybe joseph mary receive praise paid jesus lucky baby n't obvious ! could see mary gets pregnant wedlock save face joseph say god got pregnant baby turns deformed , even worse , ! 'd lot explaining \) dave buckminster fuller one 'o keeper nicknames \? nanci know \( sure \) author quote , please send email \( nm0w andrew cmu edu \) life cease funny people die , ceases serious people laugh
bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) subject islam scientific predictions \( organization tektronix inc , beaverton , lines 24 article ra nrl navy mil khan itd itd nrl navy mil \( umar khan \) writes would man 7th century arabia known include holy qur'an \( assuming authored \) \? 're judging qur'an 's \? many headed arguments going wade today \? lots books written subject books speak far eloquently one would hope bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com said queens could stay , blew bronx away , sank manhattan sea
jmunch hertz elee calpoly edu \( john munch \) subject yet rushdie islamic law organization california polytechnic state university , san luis obispo lines 11 article 1993apr15 bnr ca \( rashid \) writes p i'm sure think charge shatim also applies rushdie may encompassed umbrella fasad ruling please define words shatim fasad use john david munch jmunch hertz elee calpoly edu heart change , full hate , love people allowed base lives hearts , anything happen dangerous situation , opinion bobby mozumder describing problems atheism
jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) subject inimitable rushdie \( anecdote islam distribution world , public organization boston university physics department lines 40 article 1993apr15 cs nott ac uk eczcaw mips nott ac uk \( c wainwright \) writes article bu edu , jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) writes authorities referring authority world islamic community point simply islamic law apply muslims wherever despite fact islamic law may non islamic countries muslims residing uk may decide \( whatever \) islamic community , rulings legal consequences isles 's really decision tried rulings legal consequences , islamic law uk law \( obvious \) enforcing judgment distinct making judgment take example judgments world court internationally recognized tribunal whose judgments often physical economic effect important despite fact judgments cannot enforced person may excommunicated \( similar \) decided mete violent laws fatwa would breaking uk laws , persons would liable prosecution course , read thread post \? ignore country 's laws preference religious laws indigenous country question absurd arrogant notion course , sort explicitly islam thank well reasoned response , beside points 've making thread gregg
kutluk ccl umist ac uk \( kutluk \) subject jewish settlers demolish mosque gaza organization manchester computing centre lines 41 news chalmers se d9bertil dtek chalmers se \( bertil jonell \) writes article kutluk ccl umist ac uk kutluk ccl umist ac uk \( kutluk \) writes atheists mentioned quran point view , minute 's reasoning , one see thing people say atheists n't atheists , \? quran uses word din means way individual thinking , behaving , communal order protocols based set beliefs often interpreted much weaker term religion atheists mentioned quran along jews , , christians , etc latter din din need set beliefs , assumptions , etc , social code example marxist , history , conflict , etc put idols \( sometimes \) represent mean different , roughly cannot social atheism , community , community needs common ideas standard beliefs coordinate society assumptions , say nation , progress natural consequence human activity democracy best way government , however individually insist gods , point view therefore definition , atheism exist atheist society fact means reject din atheism exist people reject idols gods dogmas society part , case personal deviation belief , quran tells deviations disbelief mentioned , point looking things , atheism macro level think took one minute kutluk
bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) subject nostalgia organization tektronix inc , beaverton , lines 1049 recent rise nostalgia group , combined incredible level utter bullshit , prompted archives pull best alt atheism reading pleasure 'll post couple day unless group concensus demands stop , run good material n't particularly careful past saving attributions think following comes john johnson , someone correct i'm wrong probably longest entire collection prophecy fulfilled considering christian religion , judging according claims , important look claims fulfilling earlier jewish prophecy scribe matthew perhaps eager draw thinks prophetic answers career jesus nazareth see , matthew 's main strategy take various old testament passages , often even promised messiah , apply circumstances new testament must also bear mind question authenticity accounts since gospels written least 35 years jesus executed , know much happened exactly stated , purposes analysis , take particular claims face value immanuel begin , course , beginning \( mt 1 21 22 \) mary bear son , , joseph , name \( means g 'd salvation \) , save people sins happened fulfil lord spoken prophet isaiah 7 1 16 days ahaz \( c 750 bce \) , king judah , syria israel made war jerusalem \( capitol judah \) , could quite conquer house david \( e ahaz court judah \) told , heart heart people shook , lord g 'd said isaiah , go meet ahaz lord spoke ahaz \( prophet isaiah , naturally \) saying , ask sign g 'd lord deep sheol high heaven , ahaz said , wo n't ask put lord test \( isaiah \) said , hear , house david enough weary men , must weary god \? therefore , lord give sign behold , young woman child bear son , name immanuel , means , g 'd us eat honey knows refuse evil choose good , child knows refuse evil choose good , land two kings dread matthew homes sentence italics , hebrew word , \( young woman \) , specifically , virgin , prophecy messiah prophecy event happen 750 years later prophecy virgin \( \) mother short , jesus matthew made use verse context , tries make fit specific case mary noted want read prophecy general manner , general one , made fit mary mary , virgin , indeed young woman child course , fit shady problems jesus , thought later christians g 'd walking among men , never called name , immanuel christianity wished claim prophecy jesus , becomes best cut paste prophecy second class prophecy convincing egypt jesus 's birth bethlehem , matthew tells quick \( elsewhere \) excursion egypt , wishes liken jesus moses done escape alleged rampage king , herod mt 2 15 remained death herod fulfil lord spoken egypt cal led son lord really said 11 1 israel child , loved , egypt called son called \( people \) , went kept sacrificing , kept burning idols matthew conveniently omits rest 's oracle , indeed israel , called egypt , wanted return history jesus certainly spoken , draw kind parallel , wind jesus g 'd , prophecy convincing matthew probably hoped rachel jesus egypt , matthew says king herod sought kill , thus ordered executions young male children matthew writes , mt 2 17 18 , spoken prophet jeremiah fulfilled voice heard , wailing loud rachel weeping children refused , reference passage jeremiah 31 15 , referring carrying israel exile \( \) 722 bce rachel , ancestor major tribes israel , , , said weep descendants metaphorical , course , since rachel lived dies hebrews even egyptian exile interesting note leah , rachel , ancestor \( land jesus bethlehem \) anyone weeping children , leah rachel bethlehem legends buried north city , way , \( bethlehem \) herod , rather unlikely event actually occurred one never knows , event mentioned alluded anywhere else bible , mentioned secular records time herod particularly reign , many far less evil deeds herod carefully recorded might prime example events added jesus 's life enhance message church 's gospel whole story 's similarity tale infant moses egypt , highly likely device set matthew add prophetic , yet artificial , approval jesus surprising matthew conveniently mention rest jeremiah quote children prophet speaks dead , exiled empire g 'd weeping rachel , saying children returned gather back together course , would suit matthew 's purpose , children speaks dead good , prophecy matthew sets even , anyone bothers check , convincing nazarene even go next chapter find another prophecy leaving egypt , joseph wife take infant jesus live city nazareth , mt 2 23 spoken prophets might fulfilled , shall called nazarene first thing notice matthew mention name prophet \( \) time second , ask messianic prophecies speaking nazarene worse , prophecies , period , mentioning nazarene still worse , mentioned old testament book judges , angel tells samson 's mother , judges 13 5 conceive bear son razor shall tough head , god day birth deliver israel hands philistines course prophecy jesus , messiah g 'd , best found obviously , matthew begun go overboard cut paste prophecies , simple making bearing diseases jesus next goes around healing people physical illnesses mt 8 17 fulfil spoken prophet isaiah , took bore diseases expected , verse quoted isaiah quoted context , words skewed fit christian scheme , 53 4 surely , suffering servant , borne sickness , carried pains reading surrounding passages isaiah , know prophet speaking present tense collective nation israel , jehovah 's chosen servant people speaks israelites suffering exile , voice gentile nations look upon image deeply ingrained jewish identity image chastised , yet , israel instrument salvation g 'd verses speak israel taking literal metaphorical manifestations guilt discipline speak servant going around healing people notice servant isaiah takes pains nations \( individual jews \) jesus , know , take diseases onto verses isaiah prophecy something come , rather something already happened believed jesus took eternal punishment hell , bear illnesses healed , someone might want say , , jesus reenacted deeds israel spiritual atonement , admit matthew 's parallel misses intended effect silent messiah upon healing multitudes , said jesus ordered keep quiet , would n't attention local rulers mt 12 15 21 fulfill spoken prophet isaiah behold servant chosen , beloved , soul pleased put spirit , announce justice gentiles cry aloud , anyone hear voice streets break bruised reed smoldering wick brings justice victory , gentiles hope name isaiah passage quoted reads , 42 1 4 behold servant uphold , chosen , soul delights put spirit , bring forth justice nations cry lift voice , make heard street break bruised reed , smoldering wick faithfully bring forth justice fail \( burn \) discouraged \( bruised \) established justice earth await law see , matthew conveniently left part passage , suit dealings jesus christians could never think jesus failing , never would light mankind burn , servant nation israel indeed come end job done gentiles come embrace g 'd longer chosen people , rather children g 'd also , ending phrase changed await law , gentiles hope name original proclaims torah law jehovah , rewrites fit strange doctrine believing name one doubt servant referred jesus , one read whole chapter , isaiah 42 , hear beloved blind imperfect servant , people robbed plundered , see matthew 's attempt prophecy examined , three days three nights come upon prophecy supposedly uttered mouth god jesus speaks crucifixion resurrection mt 12 40 jonah belly whale three days three nights , son man heart earth three days three nights discussion occur , necessary know jews understood days far day names went , 24 hours long , lasting sunset 6pm following sunset 6pm referred day period light 6am ending sunset 6pm thus , according time scale , sabbath day began 6pm friday evening , lasted 6pm saturday evening jews celebrate sabbath daylight portion , instead sundays \( seems like real miracle christians n't forget saturday indeed seventh last day week ! \) thus , days nights referred together , 12 hour daylight portions 12 hour night periods spoken thus , jesus says grave , hell , otherwise three days three nights good book tells us , jesus crucified ninth hour , , friday afternoon put grave sometime , jesus left grave , rose , dawn call sunday \( dawn sabbath \) means jesus , using time clarity , grave 6pm friday night time 6am sunday morning could also add little time 6pm friday , since bible specific means using jewish time grave one day , two nights , possibly couple hours one day certainly problem jesus prediction absolutely way even able death involve three days three nights even using modern time measurements led suspect error another one matthew 's little mistakes , gospel writer put false words god 's mouth matter made prediction , unconvincing counter convincing hearing understanding jesus tool habit speaking vast audiences parables stories deeper meaning could found , already one elect , chosen understand message jesus reasons understand parables ones wants people cannot understand , need bother , since accept plain message better matthew says , mt 13 14 16 audience indeed fulfilled prophecy isaiah says , indeed hear never understand indeed see , never perceive people 's heart grown dull , ears heavy hearing , shut eyes would perceive , ears , understand heart , turn heal original isaiah passages part earlier works , call ministry 740 bce , israel flourishing , right falls authority isaiah sees good times ending , also vision g 'd , calling bring reform israel judah 6 9 13 g 'd said , go , say people , hear , understand see see , perceive ' make heart people fat , make ears heavy , shut eyes , see eyes , hear ears , understand hearts , turn healed isaiah said , long , lord \? said , cities lie waste without inhabitant , houses without men , land utterly desolate , g take men far away , forsaken places many land though tenth remain , burned , like oak whose still stands tree holy seed see really g 'd causes people israel stop listening prophet 's warnings , promise made solomon 's \( david 's \) seed lineage read rest isaiah , find done fulfil plan g 'd use israel servant , light nations \( look isaiah 42 18 25 , 48 20 , 49 3 \) see matthew cut pasted little portion isaiah 's verse , suit gospel needs , altered words , make fit people n't understand jesus 's stories , see , isaiah 's verses prophecies , rather commands g 'd , present , matthew 's prophecy falls flat face matthew tries make jesus 's parables look like prophetic approval mt 13 35 said nothing without parable fulfil spoken prophet , open mouth parables utter hidden since foundation world matthew really attempts quote prophet , psalms ps 78 2 4 open mouth parable utter dark sayings old , things heard known , things fathers told us hide children , tell coming generation glorious deeds lord pointed , verses psalms really come prophet might also want know earlier copies matthew 's gospel even inserted isaiah 's name prophet apparently , later scribes caught error tried cover perhaps significant part , , matthew altered old testament scriptures jesus said earlier , speaks parables understand parables psalms hidden , speak things known , fathers told us jesus deals things hidden since foundation world indeed jesus dealt lot secrecy confusion direct opposition parables psalms wonder matthew rewrite ! still , matthew 's artificial prophecies fall flat face , christians rarely look matthew 's prophecies n't things christianity beginning look bad excuses little faith mt 17 14 21 , see disciples able go around casting demons , except one case knowing epilepsy , people thought disease demons wonder disciples unable , jesus , perhaps enlightened , reported rebuked , saying n't enough faith seems strange demon special \? seems either true believer faith apparently , enough faith allow someone move mountains course , find one , days move real mountains one parts seas miracles speak rumoured happen trips mexico place major miracles making old woman 's arthritis feel better sunday morning v gods , including jesus , always shrouded ancient lore writings , protected skeptics sacred pasts either dead , sleeping , hiding heaven , people imminent return great miracles days long gone yet , life goes tales mystics , stories miracles distant time distant place gods used reveal men old days , jehovah , silent theologians give various excuses n't get see god anymore 're lazy 're zealous enough 're sinful 's plan put many demands g 'd 's appearance right faith , willing meet g 'd terms yet , even men seen g 'd , dear reader , seen g 'd literally , know true \( know 's bold , searching heart , know mean \) 've seen religions make people feel good content seeing g 'd say little faith merit us see g 'd sometimes , say , see love people worship see lives people change seeing g 'd thus people get sleep , satisfied turning g 'd everyday , seeing g 'd speaking seeing g 'd way people used see see world good , compassion human hearts , love given taken men women , forgiveness practised christian atheist alike , beauty created mind man things done see , said everybody little faith jesus rides ass shortly accepting role jewish messiah king , jesus requests donkey brought ride jerusalem mt 21 5 took place fulfil spoken prophet , saying , tell daughter zion , behold , king coming , humble , mounted ass , ass colt course , passage quoted zechariah 9 9 reads little differently lo , king comes triumphant victorious , humble , riding ass , ass colt command peace nations n't much difference , except zechariah involves one animal ass colt matthew reads poetic wording slightly differently thus , jesus call colt adult ass matthew 's version , get picture divine christ sweating two could inevitably lead theological , dilemma ! find account written earlier st mark , colt called brought jesus indeed fits verses zechariah properly , shows us matthew attempt use prophetic verses , bungled , excluding many respectable christians met , noticed christ thought ridden asses , situation often reversed nowadays , entering jerusalem temple , priests angered people youngsters calling jesus messiah , jesus replied might expect matthew done , mt 21 16 n't read \? mouth babes thou brought perfect praise ' likely matthew made response since jesus never one point little prophetic things since , might expect , quote error , seems fit matthew 's track record quite well might ask jesus matthew , n't read \? source reads , psalms 8 1 2 yahweh lord , majestic name whole world ! , whose glory chanted heavens babes infants , founded foes still enemy avenger passages hardly need comment perfect praise spoken psalm , praise given g 'd , messiah king , jesus mentioned , seems one case matthew 's pen making convenient prophetic scripture yhvh said lord jesus said asked promised jewish messiah king descended jews agree king david , jesus counters quoting psalms 110 , lord said lord , sit right hand , put enemies feet taken face value , jesus denying necessity descent one assumes opposition answer course , christian answer agrees , trying make hidden point , reveal mystery divine nature messiah king 's tempting believe , one christian interested matters investigation , problems jesus 's time , psalm thought messiah , easy see david might refer messiah superior need look scriptures messiah see expected great king , bringing jews times even better david 's rule course , jews listening good answer , passage could indeed refer divine messiah , christians worship problem lies meaning psalm , error apparently several jews jesus 's time also made one must remember various factions among jews , often result different expectations messiah king jesus apparently one adventists , like audience , thought messiah 's advent imminent , interpreted psalms 110 , among others , messianic problem , \? psalm 110 literally reads , yhvh 's lord sit right hand , make enemies yhvh sends forth mighty zion rule midst foes ! people offer freely day lead host holy mountains priest order melchizedek forever word lord often mistakenly christian bibles denote divinity lord , hebrew , word , exists simply means lord , generic term would use used often scriptures refer kings g 'd merely address respect nothing text imply word refers either divinity messiah king supposed written david certain title psalm translates either psalm david , psalm david seems fitting assume written court poet , david 's covenant endorsement g 'd psalm written david , unlikely would talking messiah idea perfect king , descended david , present david 's age extensive tales david 's doings sayings none include praises messiah many psalms show evidence written long david dead , times exile g 'd put show favour david 's kingdom hold description psalm fit david well david promised g 'd rise power , victory enemies , successful judgement among nations conquered achieved priesthood common melchizedek righteous king , enabled bless people fits blame problem matthew alone , though , artificial prophecy alluded , though use scripture rather questionable still , event common gospels , let matthew little easily time interesting note , though , matthew dresses event earlier gospel mark tells tale jesus simply speaking crowd matthew pharisees , became religious competition infant christianity , target jesus 's question might expect , matthew writes event ends embarrassing pharisees power pen moses jesus , together along leave gospel story matthew momentarily see pseudo prophecy john 's gospel gospel story john deserves special treatment , seems far removed real events jesus 's career told even matthew , moment , look one verse early church leaders founded religion jewish hopes messiah king , artificial extension original promises made g 'd constructing history abraham , moses wrote promise land jewish people accomplished eventually , rule king david , christians came along later decided would claim fulfillment promise , , expanded promise , preaching heavenly kingdom john 8 56 \( j c speaking \) father , abraham , see day say glad would nice tie approval jesus abraham , , abraham knew nothing jesus messiah , anything christian tried , failed find event old testament corresponds john 's little prophecy par course see st john making old testament , like forerunner matthew many christians know faith many foundations fraud , surprising still cling potter 's field told jesus betrayed jerusalem one followers , judas matthew writes , mt 27 5 10 throwing pieces silver temple , judas departed , chief priests , taking silver , said , n't lawful us put treasury , since blood money bought potter 's field bury strangers fulfilled spoken prophet jeremiah , took thirty pieces silver , price price set sons israel , gave potter 's field , lord directed prophecy utterly gross old testament scripture first , matthew made mistake regarding name prophet zechariah verses matthew makes use zech 11 12 13 weighed wages , thirty shekels silver yhvh said , cast treasury , price paid took thirty shekels silver cast treasury house yhvh first , verses zechariah deal messiah , g 'd deal shepherd , likely priest , chosen serve function people shortly g 'd would send judah israel conflict one another word , treasury , replaced king james scholars potter , precisely made matthew 's quote fit better , blatant error correct translation hebrew indeed treasury , also makes perfect sense zechariah 's context , whereas potter 's field totally unrelated whether intentional seems beyond speculation however , given matthew 's track record , one finds hard resist notion intentional dishonesty course , matthew would ample reason altering text thirty pieces silver match judas 's situation , christians seem , reader willing disregard contextual , matthew might another prophecy toss around however , correct translation zechariah directly contradicts situation judas high priests high priests would put money treasury worthless shepherd zechariah exactly opposite ! course , average thursday night bible student , prophecy presented matthew would taken new testament face value , matthew 's work convincing enough wine , vinegar , casting lots , jesus led away crucified mt 27 34 35 gave vinegar drink , gall tasted , would drink , crucified , divided garments among casting lots might fulfilled spoken prophet , parted garments among , upon cast lots first , vinegar offered jesus actually common sour wine , type roman soldiers drank regularly find right jesus dies , soldiers give drink polluted gall jn 19 28 30 jesus said , thirst bowl vinegar stood , put full vinegar held mouth received vinegar , said , finished , matthew seems drawing , passage prophets , one psalms ps 69 20 28 looked pity , none , found none gave poison food \( lit put gall meat \) , thirst , gave vinegar drink add punishment upon punishment , may thee let blotted book living course , sour wine offered jesus done request drink indeed seem show pity psalm quoted david political military enemies messiah jesus surprising run problem see jesus psalm asks g 'd damnation , whereas jesus gospels says , lk 23 34 jesus said , father , forgive , n't know ! , matthew misses attempt create prophecy gall \( bitter substance \) put jesus 's drink , meat , psalm stipulates prophecy vinegar faulty , naturally ask , casting lots \? brings 22nd psalm , deserves discussion suffice say fact jesus 's clothes divided told great thing turns happened often felon days soon see , perhaps least erroneous passage psalm applied jesus indeed bring interesting question quality jesus 's clothes man removed worldly possessions , ownership clothes worthy casting lots raises suspicions 22nd psalm psalm attributed david , condition attack enemies becomes song praise yhvh hope taken context , parts seem fit plight jesus crucifixion quite well examine primary passages verse 1 2 god , god ! forsaken \? ! far helping , far words \? oh , god , cry day , n't answer , night , find rest jesus said cried first sentence cross suggests whole psalm really jesus , rather king david course , rest first stanza fit nicely jesus execution jesus complaining whole ordeal , supposed like lamb led mute indeed , jesus n't much , even cross certainly cry day night cross 6 8 , worm , man men see mock make faces wag heads committed cause yhvh let deliver delights seems fit jesus 's execution pretty well , exception holy messiah called worm 12 13 many bulls encompass open mouths widely like roaring lion 16 18 yea , dogs round , company cle , pierced hands feet see bones divide garments among , cast lost 19 21 , yhvh , far away ! deliver soul sword , life power dog ! save mouth lion , afflicted soul horns wild bull ! would seem quite convincing , i'm sure early christian fathers wrote prophecy thought unfortunately , prophecy fatal flaw words pierced really exist psalm correct hebrew translation , 16 yea , dogs round , company , like lion , hands feet hebrew phrase like lion rare verb form mean pierced differ one phonetic character word hebrew text literally , like lion \( \) , makes sense context , even fits animal imagery employed psalm writer convenience would urge christian change word , add needed \( yet artificial \) weight prophecy christian translators chosen correct translation eliminate psalm referring jesus , absence say much honesty translators apart erroneous verse 16 , psalm lend jesus easily verse 20 speaks sufferer saved sword rather cross naturally fits psalm 's true subject , king david side note , know pierce hands , palms , rather n't say much favour traditional thought resurrected jesus showing disciples scars palms , facts n't bound religious beliefs matthew escapes time , attempt draw many direct links psalm lord jesus psalm , like many others , minds gospel writers compiled stories interpretations jesus 's life death much scriptures may contributed actually got written question serious repercussions christian theology easy see , faithful fundamentalists , events new testament might enhanced scribes eager matthew , less speculate simply investigate scriptural matters prophetic claims far , said good things st matthew reference piercing looks lot like jesus 's crucifixion john 's gospel recount , written 70 years fact , tells us jesus 's execution , jn 19 34 , 37 one soldiers pierced side , came blood water things took place scripture fulfilled look 've pierced course , built passage taken blatantly context prophet zechariah tells us much nation israel split jerusalem judah go war zc 12 7 10 yhvh give victory judah day , seek destroy nations come jerusalem \( judah \) pour spirit compassion supplication jerusalem look pierced , mourn , weep bitterly like weep firstborn child john 's attempt make prophecy perhaps weaker matthew 's attempts matthew , least , usually one passage john 's errors grossly obvious blatant speak well gospel writers , helps show prophetic aspects religion founded reckoned arrest , jesus quickly executed claiming jewish , according one version gospel tale , jesus gets executed along two thieves mk 15 27 crucified two robbers , one right , one left scripture fulfilled says , reckoned , mark trying link jesus passage isaiah 53 , servant nation israel passage messiah , one reads whole chapter isaiah 53 , surrounding chapters , one sees servant nation verses also servant gone past , prediction come , event servant thought criminal also happens fit description jesus passage really messiah , still clear executing jesus two thieves would fulfill prophecy isaiah jesus would fulfill whole ministry considered throughout career locking onto single event rather poor way steal prophecy , least case , see mark could made better analogy general comparisons mark goes tell us crucified jesus also 15 32 expected couple robbers course later recount , st luke decides change things luke tells us , lk 23 39 43 one criminals hanged , n't messiah \? ! save , us ! certainly fits mark 's recount , tells people crucified jesus said , save ! robbers luke goes , criminal rebuked first saying , n't fear g 'd , since sentence condemnation \? , indeed justly , receiving due reward deeds , man done nothing wrong said , jesus , remember come kingdom jesus answered , verily say , today paradise , little dialogue seems highly contrived stretches imagination bit see picture one fellow criminal eloquent speech rather strange picture criminal goodness punishment suffering man , apparently noble principle , n't seem likely wonder amount created luke course , luke 's recount also disagrees mark 's luke one criminal jesus , easy enough discount discrepancy account made , wish believe part error free words g 'd avenue open yet another example writer trying take old testament passage expand reinterpret suit theology case , creates embarrassing problems , seen end world mt 24 comes perhaps one extraordinary embarrassing passages new testament found three synoptic gospel stories , casts doubt whole theory christianity jesus mentions destruction jewish temples buildings , disciples ask , end world warning disciples tell us , temple 's destruction , sign coming , close age \? jesus take care one leads astray , many come name , saying , christ hear wars rumours wars must take place , end yet , nation rise nation beginning deliver put death , false prophets arise lead many astray end saved gospel preached throughout whole world , testimony nations , end come , see spoken prophet daniel , let judea flee mountains immediately tribulation days , sun darkened stars fall heaven appear sign son man heaven , tribes earth mourn , see son man coming send angels gather elect learn lesson fig tree soon branch becomes tender puts forth leaves , know summer near also , see things , know near , gate truly say , generation pass away things take place , day hour , one knows angels , son , father therefore , also must ready , son man coming hour expect , clear jesus thought world would within lifetimes least disciples tells although n't know exact day hour , come , thus must ready theologians wet pants panic find way holy error , unfortunately , jesus made explicit told disciples generation would still around end , particular prepare , prepare swept away resorted removing inerrant nature bible , said phrase , generation shall pass away really means race people pass away course , word generation used many times refer exactly , generation disciples interesting notion god decided learn greek , n't learn well enough make clear quite obvious rest dialogue disciples \( least \) supposed live end world charge completely blown away looking apostles' responses becomes abundantly clear rev 22 7 , 1 peter 4 7 , 1 john 2 18 , rev 22 20 , jesus meant exactly said end near 2 , 000 years , christians 24th chapter matthew , ignored meaning altogether 2 , 000 years , waited executed leader come back , hearing wars , rumours wars , sure coming soon surely must must wait imagine tired must , sitting around , holy , waiting right moment spring \? , shortly crucifixion , jesus nazareth , \( joshua ben joseph \) , died said three days , three days three nights , three periods time , three eternal seconds three whatever decide makes less trouble seen , resurrected , glowing divine radiance saviour decided n't best interests new religion stick around , therefore disappeared sight heaven story goes , anyway seen , many things attributed jesus people got around writing gospel stories , jesus prophecy scripture seen , though , matter quite shaky , throughout church history , christians held fast faith , simple belief doctrinal objections could solved argumentation brute force , faith forgetfulness kept away question question investigate never easiest way treat matters thus 2 , 000 years , prophecies cited new testament gone largely accepted things may well continue way time pausing moment consider way doctrines christianity accepted used \( properly improperly \) support wars persecution , suppose one prophecy christianity securely keep hold mt 10 34 jesus n't think come bring peace earth n't come bring peace , rather sword
physics adelaide edu au \( charles \) subject thoughts organization university adelaide lines 123 distribution world nntp posting host adelphi itd adelaide edu au keywords dan bissell bissda saturn wwc edu \( dan lawrence bissell \) writes first want start right say i'm christian makes sense one read tony campollo 's book liar , lunatic , real thing \? \( might little title , writes book anyway part effort destroy christianity , process became christian assume posting encourage comments much history tony read \? much seems arguements uses summing book whether jesus god know many n't believe , listen different perspective something gain listening others say good hear reasonable christians christian scientists would take note \( australia strong movement , bunch christian scientists believe every single event bible exactly true , rational explanation justified using laws physics example , chaps trying prove age universe 6000 years old , error conventional calculations result fact speed light rapidly years , accounted \) book says jesus either liar , crazy \( modern day koresh \) actually said \( course \) , never existed , bible story , never intended become billion people tony follow one \? reasons would n't liar follows would die lie \? would n't people able tell liar \? people gathered around kept , many gathered hearing seeing someone healed millions people died lie point difficult substantiate since well defined \( great many religious arguments work way \) , consider many warriors sacrificed gods belief act would bring victory spanish invaders list endless lost , btw call fool , believe heal people perfectly reasonable , grounds \( anyone \) become christian point , add weight claim jesus real thing niether lunatic would entire nation drawn someone crazy doubtful , fact rediculous example anyone drawn david koresh obviously fool , logical people see right away ever seen documentary rise nazi germany \? point , tony mention \? one could hardly call werner heisenberg many colleagues fools , illogical men , support hitler based \( presume \) upon emotional issue rather rational agreement principles obviously argument invalid tony thought hitler sane therefore since n't liar lunatic , must real thing hmmm n't think arguments warrant use therefore things note fulfilled loads prophecies psalms , isaiah elsewhere 24 hrs alone betrayal crucifixion n't bible moment , next time write use \( unfortunately \) alot religious discussions people result quoting bible reasonable way think people look bible treat stories sort metaphorical representation messages authors trying present someone tries interpret parts bible literally , end sorts shit tony 's argument would perfectly reasonable people believe events described bible took place , convince someone , thinks bible total fiction , jesus real quoting book totally pointless example , mathematics cannot say equal b equal b n't think people understand christian would possibly explain many people killed religious wars , hundreds different versions claiming correct certainly see lot churches rather think way life , total sacrafice everything god 's sake loved us enough die save us hey ca n't , god inspires us turn lives 's tuff people n't want , real christian would something strong persevere like weight lifting guitar playing , drums , whatever takes time n't rush one day , christianity whole life going church week , helping poor people box everything time units work time , sports , tv , social life god boxes carried us boxes created think posted part alt religion would get flames \) never really understood emotional sentiments stranger interest people someone famous said two evils life , , one rules fear living , fear dead pressed could probably find exact quotation cheers , charles
steve mullins vos stratus com subject bible quiz organization stratus computer , marlboro lines 20 nntp posting host m72 eng stratus com article 1993apr16 1 ccsua ctstateu edu ccsua ctstateu edu wrote article kmr4 po cwru edu , kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) writes sun starts orbit earth accept bible since atheism mean trashing religions \? must god son \) think rather witty sig file sums great deal atheistic thought \( imo \) one simple sentence b \) atheism n't religion sm steve mullins vos stratus com \( \) man purse opinions opinions \( \) head , one take \( \) benjamin franklin
vdp mayo edu \( vinayak dutt \) subject islam scientific predictions \( reply vdp mayo edu organization mayo foundation mayo graduate school rochester , mn lines 53 article ra nrl navy mil , khan itd itd nrl navy mil \( umar khan \) writes strongly suggest look book called bible , quran , science maurice , french surgeon comprehensive , , well researched imagine library get loan shall try get hold \( time read course \) short , dr began investigating bible pre scientific inaccuracies inconsistencies assumed problems may caused poor translations gone days , read could find hebrew , greek , aramaic found problems n't go away , got worse , decided see religions problems , picked holy qur'an \( french \) found similar prob , many , applied bible learned read arabic problems found french version went away arabic unable find wealth scientific statements holy qur'an , , find made sense modern understanding , investigated traditions \( hadith \) see say science filled science problems , contemporary narratives time , pour standards , primitive world view conclusion , impressed little holy qur'an say science accurate , far impressed holy qur'an contain rampant errors evidenced traditions would man 7th century arabia known include holy qur'an \( assuming authored \) \? short writer \( writers \) quran decided stay away science \( open mouth , n't put foot mouth either \) say quran talk much science , one make claims \( like bobby \) great science quran basically want say none religious texts supposed scientific requesting theists stop making wild claims vinayak vinayak dutt e mail vdp mayo edu standard disclaimers apply
utarlg uta edu \( wang \) subject bible contradictions news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host utarlg uta edu organization university texas arlington lines 2 would like list bible dispite free christianity well versed bible
bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization tektronix inc , beaverton , lines 33 article news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) writes vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com \( robert beauchaine \) writes actually , atheism based ignorance ignorance existence god n't fall atheists n't believe pride mistake know 's based ignorance , could n't wrong \? would wrong fall trap mentioned \? i'm wrong , god free time correct mistake continues , supposedly proclaiming undying love eternal soul , speaks volumes trap , position tell n't believe god wish unless know motivations better , believe say earnestly searched god years never found bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com said queens could stay , blew bronx away , sank manhattan sea
william vaughan cc utah edu \( william daniel vaughan \) subject silly question x tianity lines 9 organization university utah computer center article pww spac at1 59 rice edu pww spacsun rice edu \( peter walker \) writes pww spacsun rice edu \( peter walker \) subject silly question x tianity date mon , 12 apr 1993 07 06 33 gmt article gap caltech edu , cco caltech edu \( andrew tong \) wrote
l newnham bradford ac uk \( leonard newnham \) subject islam scientific predictions \( organization university bradford , uk lines 54 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 umar khan \( khan itd itd nrl navy mil \) wrote strongly suggest look book called bible , quran , science maurice , french surgeon comprehensive , unable find wealth scientific statements holy qur'an , , find made sense modern understanding , investigated traditions \( hadith \) see say science filled science problems , contemporary narratives time , pour standards , primitive world view conclusion , impressed little holy qur'an say science accurate , far impressed holy qur'an contain rampant errors evidenced traditions would man 7th century arabia known include holy qur'an \( assuming authored \) \? book worth read get sensible view issue book two sections section 1 contains fairly reasonable analysis bible , showing many inconsistencies bible modern science well know , surprises section 2 analyses koran 's version old testament stories , seems , face , present good case showing koran consistent modern science however , plain , consistency possible vague koran take flood , example , bible full detail , \( forty days forty nights , pair every animal , etc \) , know nonsense koran 's description event obscure make possible interpretation big river flooded days caused much damage yes , contradiction also much fact koran might consistent modern science , consistent due compared books time , seem much achievement book concludes saying something like , koran must divine inspiration time written lot \( us \) ridiculous ideas universe , none found koran ! arguing greatness book talking contain seems absurd extreme , course , memory may missed points leonard e mail l newnham bradford ac uk
ray engr latech edu \( bill ray \) subject bible abortion organization louisiana tech university lines 38 distribution world , local nntp posting host engr latech edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 james j lippard \( lippard skyblu ccit arizona edu \) wrote exodus 21 22 25 22 men struggle strike woman child miscarriage , yet injury , shall surely fined woman 's husband may demand shall pay judges decide 23 injury , shall appoint penalty life life , 24 eye eye , tooth tooth , hand hand , foot foot , 25 burn burn , wound wound , bruise bruise straightforward interpretation verses men fight strike woman cause , penalty fine , however , woman injured dies , lex doctrine eye eye applies jewish interpretation , supported jewish commentaries verses quite embarrassment pro christians , course alternate explanation alternative interprets word miscarriage mean premature birth e , child born alive injury mean injury either woman fetus straightforward interpretation , \( far know \) supported jewish commentaries , appeared supported part bible , historical reference abortion time \? ancient jew appropriate reference understand abortion \? \( truly asking , making point veiled question \) little understanding medical procedure know abortion , surprising bible makes little reference , makes little reference nuclear power contamination interpretation reasonable one , see reason reject hand king jimmy translation says mischief necessarily imply woman know wife expecting someone cause spontaneously abort , would feel life truly taken , simply process halted
organization penn state university jsn104 psuvm psu edu subject go hell ! ! ! lines 2 blashephemers ! ! ! go hell believing god ! ! ! ! prepared eternal damnation ! ! !
\( \) subject yet rushdie islamic law nntp posting host organization bell northern research , ottawa , canada lines 21 article bu edu , jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) wrote khomeini advocates view series twelve islamic leaders \( twelve imams \) free error sin makes heretic wow , 're quicker point heresy church middle ages seriously though , even al n't claim shi'ites heretics accusations fabrications shi'ites come saudi arabia matter read original works sunni imams \( imams four \) teacher least two imam \( sixth imam shi'ites \) although plenty false propaganda floating around shi'ites \( esp since revolution \) , also many good works shi'ites present views teachings school make assumptions allegations \( like people group done islam general \) shi'ites
simon dcs warwick ac uk \( simon clippingdale \) subject note bobby , nntp posting host nin organization department computer science , warwick university , england lines 30 article 1993apr13 ultb isc rit edu snm6394 ultb isc rit edu \( n mozumder \) writes people religous \? take inner city many people care little religion lot crime lot murder end lack religion allows wrong happen lived tokyo year half , one many reasons intend go back indefinitely freedom one enjoys one walk anywhere \( mean anywhere \) time day night feel uneasy , even one 's ethnic minority clues bobby \( bother \? \) \( \) tokyo city , inner tokyo inner city \( ii \) negligible level violent crime , street murder lead item national tv news \( iii \) population almost universally atheistic next time go stroll around beirut night , 'll let know compares bobby mozumder cheers simon simon clippingdale simon dcs warwick ac uk department computer science tel \( 44 \) 203 523296 university warwick fax \( 44 \) 203 525714 coventry cv4 7al , u k
healta saturn wwc edu \( tammy r healy \) subject islam clearer view lines 25 organization walla walla college lines 25 article i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) writes i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) subject islam clearer view date tue , 13 apr 1993 13 15 18 gmt article healta 60 saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu \( tammy r healy \) writes sorry , generally accepted rise inquisition reason torture introduced outside countries end middle ages words , holy mother church lead holy ghost spread roman catholic church claims lead pope 's \( rc church \) done many wicked things non believers alike rationale pope speaking ex cathedra infallible based claim dogma pope origin accepted mid last century benedikt 're right thanks enlightening tammy
healta saturn wwc edu \( tammy r healy \) subject genocide bible lines 6 organization walla walla college lines 6 excuse ignorance remember reading biblical tribe known philistines still exists modern day palestinians anyone info , please post ! ! ! tammy
healta saturn wwc edu \( tammy r healy \) subject getting point ! lines 12 organization walla walla college lines 12 readers asked several post list sda church 's 27 fundamental beliefs warn , 's long list however , 'll post sunday sabbath coming soon wo n't reading saturday n't time would greatly appreciate would keep touch 's going hope relaxing weekend hope 's best one far ! ! tammy
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject inimitable rushdie \( anecdote islam organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 16 article bu edu , jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) wrote 'd precise rejection god leaving islam one perfectly free muslim doubt question existence god , long one reject god sure rushdie made atheism clear front sufficient number proper witnesses question regard legal issue status time crime committed gregg , would consider rushdie would left alone , could normal life \? words , islam support notion forgiving \? cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject inimitable rushdie \( anecdote islam distribution world , public organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 19 article bu edu , jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) wrote stated parallel thread , anarchist , islam anarchist therefore uk control however , change fact possible citizens uk residing within uk violation islamic law interesting notion one i'm scared case i'm finnish citizen , live usa , conform us laws however , finnish government actively checking i'm country , words checking conform finnish laws however , islamic law seems following everywhere world shades 1984 , eh \? cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject objective morality \( political atheists \? \) organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 14 article gap caltech edu , keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) wrote type morality talking \? natural sense , immoral harm another species \( long n't adversely affect , guess \) hehehe , say , objective morality tells case , n't know rules transcendental game systems cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject free moral agency kent organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 19 article healta 140 saturn wwc edu , healta saturn wwc edu \( tammy r healy \) wrote time ezekiel written , israel apostacy i'm mistaken , tyre make war israel like said , prince tyre human ruler tyre wicked man calling satan king tyre , ezekiel saying satan real ruler tyre tammy , explicitly stated bible , assume know ezekiel indirectly mentioned \? could another metaphor , instance ezekiel mad landlord , talked wrote prince tyre sorry , interpretation mundane , ezekiel wrote prince tyre wrote prince tyre cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
dewey risc sps mot com \( dewey henize \) subject sci skeptic religion \( alt atheism \? \) organization motorola , inc austin , tx lines 33 nntp posting host thug sps mot com article 93103 psuvm psu edu john johnson j5j psuvm psu edu writes standard groups \( sci , soc , talk \) must conform stricter rules established must show certain volume postings else cease exist groups also reach sites usenet alt groups already posted opinion mathew 's suggestion , alt atheism verge many garbage postings fundies , status standard group \( consequently , volume postings \) could make unreadable tend agree came first started watched grow roots talk religion misc seemed take enough atheists come forward get past let 's trash 's stable core , frankly 's feeling group go mainstream , 're going lot places every fucking fundy freshman dumping us find jeesus ! warn us 're going hell want see 'll get \? go real alt fan brother jed imagine time every post i'm selfish find really learn lot n n't bad distraction , enough even bring needed offset greatly fear would basically put us level conners world regards , dew dewey henize sys net admin risc hardware \( 512 \) 891 pager 928 x
dewey risc sps mot com \( dewey henize \) subject inimitable rushdie organization motorola , inc austin , tx lines 43 nntp posting host rtfm sps mot com , part gotten beyond useful \? gregg , understand posts , giving support bounty rushdie 's life 's correct , end one point gregg using concept legal way westerners n't accept comments islamic law think make great deal sense , even making little sense person member group \( religion whatever \) bind follow ways group within bounds group requires minimum big bone contention i'm picking west secular governments maintain , less , level control requirements outside requirements optional groups think majority us reading thread tune \( note n't say agreement \) idea finally responsible secular government , within group groups person may chosen mind , possible secular law \( legally people would define term \) hold person particular group decide separate secular authorities agree requirement sort \( contractual , etc \) secular enforcement allowed group group member past group member religion , often , believe require additional duties group member enforce fulfillment duties many ways common example limit comes enforcement would impose unwanted onus person conflict secular law difference , requirements secular authorities , definition , congruent religious authorities outside , necessarily true religious requirements may coincide may , religious consequences may may coincide secular consequences \( \) regards , dew dewey henize sys net admin risc hardware \( 512 \) 891 pager 928 x
dewey risc sps mot com \( dewey henize \) subject yet rushdie islamic law organization motorola , inc austin , tx lines 48 nntp posting host rtfm sps mot com article 1993apr15 bnr ca \( rashid \) writes deletions fatwa levelled person rushdie actions rushdie feed situation contribute ruling book remains circulation independant author publishers fatwa person rushdie encompasses actions well crime certainly crime progress \( many levels \) played \( played \) full view media p i'm sure think charge shatim also applies rushdie may encompassed umbrella fasad ruling grounded firmly islam , claim , exposed islam grounds terrorism , plain simple whether like , whether rushdie acted like total jerk , acceptable civilized basis putting someone fear life words simply matter whether underlying motive find worst possible way could insult muslims beliefs , got \? threaten life someone words , quite simply admit position support threatening life someone words , yet civilized exactly , many people know , depart respecting religions others beliefs allow encourage \( interpretation \) killing non physical opposition , anyone , believe someone , whether rushdie bush , beyond pale civilized society condemn soul , refuse allow members association interact , demonstrate try convince others , whatever , short physical force physically threaten , support physical threats , get much closer earlier comparison rape rapist asked , look dressed blaming victim unable civilized n't fly dew dewey henize sys net admin risc hardware \( 512 \) 891 pager 928 x
jcopelan nyx cs du edu \( one \) subject nicknames summary new member organization salvation army draft board lines 36 article andrew cmu edu nm0w andrew cmu edu \( nanci ann miller \) writes jcopelan nyx cs du edu \( one \) writes welcome official keeper list nicknames people known alt atheism \( n't know list , \) awarded nickname buckminster next time post article , sign nickname like dave buckminster fuller thanks jim humor means never say 're sorry copeland course , list agree nickname laws laid gipu almost 2000 years ago \( know 9 written iron tablets melted \? \) since prophet gipu decree post whole list nicknames frequent posters ! first rule humor never say 're sorry second rule must never explain things worse joke explained spite , requests post list o' nicknames , must admit list exists simply plot device , along keeper o' list , make obvious play last name fuller advance idea list made assumed ol' timers would recognize nevertheless , list o' nicknames alt atheism posters \? think good one , post see others like could start posters annoy us , like bobby bill jim ! broke second rule humor copeland god dead actor plays part sting , words fear find way place heart history without voice reason every faith curse teach us without freedom past things get worse nothing
jbrown batman bmd trw com subject death penalty gulf war lines 128 article rusnews w165w mantis co uk , mathew mathew mantis co uk writes rush leland stanford edu \( \) writes article 1993apr12 seachg com chrisb seachg com \( chris blask \) writes add outrageous cost putting someone death \( special cell block , years court costs , extra guards \) benefits death penalty entirely disappear 's earlier claim one innocent death overrides benefit others obviously 's tragic , argument away death penalty went war worried accidentally killing civilians time \( determination enemy really imperfect \) , way win war yes fortunately right thinking folks like good self power , therefore deemed acceptable slaughter tens even hundreds thousands iraqis order liberate oil h h war , hurrah hurrah ! number civilian iraqi deaths way exaggerated exploited anti war emotionalism liberal news media facts less iraqis died gulf war civilians war comparable size century ! due mostly short duration coupled precise surgical bombing techniques technically possible recently idea hundreds thousands iraqi citizens died ludicrous even hundreds thousands iraqi soldiers died , ones targeted ! think us allies specifically kill iraqi civilians \? either smart bombs n't hit targets \( know \) , targeting civilian targets \( ! \) hardly destroying iraq 's military potential military mission planners fools , know hit military targets win war hitting civilian targets nothing unite people , goal one wants people rise tyrant dictator ok , innocent people died yes , maybe unarmed civilians fleeing along road n't need bombed bits perhaps kid half face burned little girl mangled legs n't entirely guilty 's worth death innocents save oil h h kuwaiti people , n't \? , iraqis may chance vote saddam , showed acceptance regime assassinating , right \? fleeing along open roads devious ploy entirely within rights bomb 'em case , without finding soldiers innocent people died blanket bombing ww2 \? n't hear bemoaning ! war never exact science , smart bombs , 's becoming exact smaller percentage civilian casualties sometimes mistakes made targets innocents die 's war way really alternative , allow tyrannical dictators treat earth like 's one big sale , grabbing everything get worse like patrick henry said 217 years ago , know course others may take , give liberty , give death ! war always price one must willing pay one wishes stay free death penalty conceived deterrent crime , legal added \( automatic appeals , lengthy court battles , etc \) relegated purpose small part hence question , death penalty meant , see crime , get rid entirely \? yes , let 's reinstate death penalty way ought shit fair trials court appeals gets way justice let 's give police absolute right gun guilty , save expense lawyers think knock benefits , la would never spend much money cleaning riots holding showcase trials cops allowed job properly quick bullet head rodney king another cameraman , everyone would saved great deal unnecessary paperwork expense , police decide man 's guilty , ought enough fact death penalty shown deterrent effect imprisonment , well , 's entirely irrelevant mathew mathew , sarcasm noted completely base come sounding like complete peace nik idiot , although feel sure intent iraqi war wrong , eh \? i'm sure appeasement would worked better war , like ww2 , eh \? guess n't fought ww2 either think innocent german civilians killed dresden hamburg poor french died crossfire invaded continent \? let hitler take europe , 'd speaking german instead english right tyrants like hussein stopped kind n't understand diplomacy understand point gun regret bush n't military roll baghdad , hussein still power iraqi people 's sacrifice \( mention 357 americans died \) liberating kuwait good thing , wiping hussein map would 've better ! poor , poor rodney king ! ever stop think jury first trial brought back verdict guilty \? foaming mouth blood policemen certainly looked video tape jury looked evidence , evidence seen one makes judgment without benefit trial evidence presented sides , one simply lowered level justice , state mind sarcasm seemingly spoke , instead tends support case policemen law country intended protect rights accused , whether criminals cops one found guilty reasonable doubt one 's guilt , jury position assess evidence render verdict anyone else simply verbal regards , jim b
subject inimitable rushdie kmagnacca eagle wesleyan edu organization wesleyan university nntp posting host wesleyan edu lines 28 article bu edu , jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) writes article 1993apr15 st andrews ac uk nrp st andrews ac uk \( norman r paterson \) writes n't think 're right germany daughter born n't think german rights eg vote live \( beyond rights ec citizens \) british citizen virtue , 's full citizenship example , n't think children could british virtue way fairly sure could obtain citizenship making application might require immigration germany , almost certain applied citizenship inevitable case nope , germany extremely restrictive citizenship laws ethnic germans lived russia 100 years automatically become citizens move germany , turks third generation germany ca n't 's good example show citizenship without descent karl lastly , come china hope touch see fulfilling lifelong ambition life ever dropping acid great wall duke pink floyd lie still lie even 3 8 billion people believe
edm twisto compaq com \( ed mccreary \) subject go hell ! ! ! reply 's message fri , 16 apr 1993 15 50 02 edt organization compaq computer corp lines 11 fri , 16 apr 1993 15 50 02 edt , jsn104 psuvm psu edu said j blashephemers ! ! ! go hell believing god ! ! ! ! j prepared eternal damnation ! ! ! hmm , 've got lunch box , travel scrabble , couple kegs bass ale i'm set ! let 's go everybody ! ed mccreary , edm twisto compaq com , laughter , would tao \( \) ' \( \)
jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) subject inimitable rushdie organization boston university physics department lines 17 article i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) writes assume say religious law followers religion begs question religion right define follower even offenders disagree , say religious law applies categorized belonging religion event judged applies prevents situations someone member religion , charged , claims member religion free go nothing happened gregg
jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) subject anecdote islam organization boston university physics department lines 117 article i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) writes article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) writes brutal system filtered leniency lenient huh \? rate public floggings floggings \? chopping hands , heads , body parts \? stoning \? n't problem floggings , particularly , offenders given chance change behavior floggings given problem maiming general , whatever means opinion one maimed another maimed case rape victim maimed , physically emotionally , would n't problem maiming rapists obviously would n't problem maiming murderers either may ask opinion became muslim \? sure yes , see n't think rape murder dealt lightly , interested leniency leniency 's sake , apparently think people simply told bad thing simple chance \? avoided much possible suspect 's pretty unlikely , given requirement repeated offenses , likely orient place single character ignorance exposes nicely read carefully , said orient shows primitive machism well , use specific words orient \? probably mind need \( 's \) contains sufficient information detail possible , necessary europe shows civilized bullshit bullshit time put shut 've substantiated nothing like talk west great satan 're guilty love compare lines common plea fellow believers call others names case , substantiate quran allows one beats one 's wife submission really \? care give chapter verse \? could discuss primitive machism refers \( , fault \) , orient follows qur'an 'll better sorry , n't put enough islam expresses extramarital sex extramarital sex subset sex islam allowed encouraged islam , many branches christianity , , misses point read part urge sex religions run around telling people sex piece cake two reasons suppressing strong urge needs strong measures , business anyway believe wish thought trying make argument reading opinions argument doubt validity premises change want criticize , time put shut argument n't like religions suppress sex 's irrelevant argument 'd like generalize objective statement fine response given reason statement sex business religion \( one arguments \) urge sex adolescents strong overly strong measures required suppress urge sex strong adult adult make effort find marriage partner gregg
qpliu phoenix princeton edu \( q p liu \) subject free moral agency originator news nimaster nntp posting host phoenix princeton edu reply qpliu princeton edu organization princeton university lines 26 article kmr4 1575 po cwru edu kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) writes article 1993apr15 princeton edu qpliu phoenix princeton edu \( q p liu \) writes faith gift , obedience makes faith possible makes obeying different believing \? still wondering obedient , idea obedient ! written wholly babble users guide invisible pink unicorns granted faith invisible pink unicorns , must read babble , obey written obey written babble , must believe way granted faith invisible pink unicorns believe obeying written babble leads believing invisible pink unicorns , must , essentially , believe invisible pink unicorns bit circular reasoning begs question makes obeying different believing \? qpliu princeton edu standard opinion opinions delta correlated
jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) subject yet rushdie islamic law organization boston university physics department lines 57 article 1993apr15 bnr ca \( rashid \) writes twelve imams , considered incapable error sin \? khomeini supports view twelve heresy reasons gave would happy discuss issue 12 imams , although preference would move discussion another newsgroup feel philosophy religion group would appropriate think many reading group would also benefit knowing deviant view 've articulated \( may true view khomeini \) basic principles islam non muslim readers group see far simple basics islam views face contradiction basics islam , subtle issues seems sects exist islam explicitly proscribed qur'an topic deeply embedded world view islam esoteric teachings prophet \( \) heresy enter except see islam religion nominally \( \) concerned metaphysical substance man 's nature opinion considering human substance metaphysical fundamentally different human heretical notion one proscribed islam posts , seem fairly well versed sunni thought seek know shi'ite thought knowledgeable shi'ite authors well least much respect due charge heresy levelled absolutely ! would interested discussing privately interested hearing one might try make concept error free sinless human beings philosophically consistent teachings qur'an however , prima highly susceptible , explicitly proscribed qur'an salaam laikum gregg
robert knowles p00261 psilink com subject koresh god ! reply rusnews w165w mantis co uk nntp posting host 127 0 0 1 organization kupajava , east krakatoa x mailer psilink dos \( 3 3 \) lines 15 date fri , 16 apr 1993 14 15 20 0100 mathew mathew mantis co uk latest news seems koresh give 's finished writing sequel bible mathew writing seven seals something along lines 's already written first seven around 30 pages handed assistant ! would expect decent messiah built maybe koresh 2 0 come one
robert knowles p00261 psilink com subject islam scientific predictions \( reply ra nrl navy mil nntp posting host 127 0 0 1 organization kupajava , east krakatoa x mailer psilink dos \( 3 3 \) lines 35 date fri , 16 apr 1993 15 23 54 gmt umar khan khan itd itd nrl navy mil conclusion , impressed little holy qur'an say science accurate , far impressed holy qur'an contain rampant errors evidenced traditions would man 7th century arabia known include holy qur'an \( assuming authored \) \? well , looks like folks soc religion islam bit discussing topic well banking interest topic books subject also mentioned addition one mentioned may hard find , think may take stab curiosity know one film saw subject pretty weak two quotes seen used show science koran \( posted \) also pretty vague suspect books extrapolate awful lot quotes least one poster islam channel seems practice using koran decide good science wonder islam ever come equivalent christians creation science topic would interesting find history scientific interpretations koran , see anyone used koran support earlier science since discarded easy look science exists today interpret passages match findings people similar things sayings time anyway , rather unique claim islam may worth checking
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject keith relativist ! organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 10 nntp posting host punisher caltech edu 9051467f levels unisa edu au \( desert brat \) writes keith , start different human someone thrown 's cage \( speak \) , 'd better start posting tome decent evidence retract 'i think absolute morality' blurb weeks ago claim absolute morality , objective one \? keith
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject political atheists \? organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 20 nntp posting host punisher caltech edu livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes perhaps chimps failed evolve cooperative behaviour died , left ones evolve behaviour , entirely chance 's entire point ! going proclaim natural morality every time organism evolves cooperative behaviour \? yes ! natural morality morality developed naturally natural morality bee dance \? huh \? keith
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject objective morality \( political atheists \? \) organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 13 nntp posting host punisher caltech edu sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) writes type morality talking \? natural sense , immoral harm another species \( long n't adversely affect , guess \) hehehe , say , objective morality tells case , n't know rules transcendental game systems objective system talking \? goal \? , brand morality talking \? keith
jimh carson u washington edu \( james hogan \) subject yet rushdie islamic law keywords slander organization university washington , seattle lines 60 nntp posting host carson u washington edu article 1993apr16 bnr ca \( rashid \) writes article 1993apr16 zeus calpoly edu , jmunch hertz elee calpoly edu \( john munch \) wrote article 1993apr15 bnr ca \( rashid \) writes p i'm sure think charge shatim also applies rushdie may encompassed umbrella fasad ruling please define words shatim fasad use apologies shatim , believe , refers slandering spreading slander lies prophets \( \) prophets basically , prophet 've ever dealt either busy hawking stolen merchandise selling house lots florida hear stories sexual abuse prophets families victims paid keep quiet 's kind willful cursing 's indicated word best explanation come top head 'll try look technical definition time never mind , let tell chevelle bought dude \( guessed , prophet \) named mohammed 've got car like two days tranny kicks , manny , mechanic , tells loaded ! take guess whether mohammed anywhere found n't think fasad little difficult describe , technical definition 'll try get later literally , oh , mohammed ! word fasad means mischief 's mischief order magnitude indicated word corruption 's someone something wrong begin , seeks escalate hurt , yeah , , mohammed ! disorder , concern , harm etc \( mischief \) initially caused actions wrong specifically related attacks god messenger mischief , corruption , disorder etc slimy mass pond scum ! resulting attack need physical attack different levels penalty proscribed , depending extent mischief whether person persons sought make hay situation punishment death yeah , right ! 're one watching butt buddy allah stereo sold two days ass grass ! jim yeah , 's right , jim
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject cruel \( political atheists \? \) organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 23 nntp posting host punisher caltech edu kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) writes spent quite bit time wording constitution picked words whose meanings implied intent already looked dictionary define word n't sufficient \? need ask question founding fathers consider cruel unusual punishment \? hanging \? hanging slowing strangled would painful , physically , imagine well , hangings quick , imagine , painless firing squad \? note clean way die back days , etc would considered cruel definition allowed constitution founding fathers , hangings firing squads allowed today , , things considered cruel , surely medical execution \( painless \) would , either keith
keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) subject cruel \( political atheists \? \) organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 18 nntp posting host punisher caltech edu livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes spent quite bit time wording constitution realise widely held belief america , fact clause cruel unusual punishments , like lot rest , lifted english bill rights wording elsewhere mean n't spend much time wording already looked dictionary define word n't sufficient \? since dictionary said lack mercy intent inflict injury grief counted cruel , sure people described cruel way , punishments cannot keith
kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) subject inimitable rushdie organization case western reserve university lines 20 nntp posting host b64635 student cwru edu article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) writes , say religious law applies categorized belonging religion event judged applies \? 'd cheat hillary john laws local gop reprehensitive extolling traditional family values
kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) subject cruel \( political atheists \? \) organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 35 nntp posting host b64635 student cwru edu article gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) writes hanging \? hanging slowing strangled would painful , physically , imagine well , hangings quick , imagine , painless think misnomer firing squad \? note clean way die back days , etc would considered cruel definition allowed constitution founding fathers , hangings firing squads allowed today , , things considered cruel , surely medical execution \( painless \) would , either , shows painful execution considered cruel unusual punishment shows cruel used constitution refer whether punishment causes physical pain rather , must different meaning 'd cheat hillary john laws local gop reprehensitive extolling traditional family values
halat pooh bears \( jim halat \) subject atheists \? ! reply halat pooh bears \( jim halat \) lines 38 article kutluk ccl umist ac uk kutluk ccl umist ac uk \( kutluk \) writes atheists mentioned quran point view , minute 's reasoning , one see thing guess 's scientists probably n't mentioned either stock brokers television 's precious know deep brainwashing childhood \( takes progress religion \) away substantial part reasoning neurons n't mind n't exist jim halat
i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) subject anecdote islam organization technical university braunschweig , germany lines 76 article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) writes \( deletion \) sure yes , see n't think rape murder dealt lightly , interested leniency leniency 's sake , apparently think people simply told bad thing straw man brought leniency simple chance \? avoided much possible suspect 's pretty unlikely , given requirement repeated offenses , likely assuming correlated \( deletion \) love compare lines common plea fellow believers call others names case , substantiate quran allows one beats one 's wife submission really \? care give chapter verse \? could discuss discussed chapter verse cited , assume n't looking let 's exact , think quran \? would consequences shown \? primitive machism refers \( , fault \) , orient follows qur'an 'll better claimed sufficient argument lot male dominated societies qualify going say situation women better areas orient \? \( deletion \) argument n't like religions suppress sex 's irrelevant argument 'd like generalize objective statement fine response given reason statement sex business religion \( one arguments \) urge sex adolescents strong overly strong measures required suppress urge sex strong adult adult make effort find marriage partner apparently trouble reading things n't like point sex way one wishes strong desire marriage red herring tell homosexuals , one simply ignore everything n't fit world would like situation adolescents , one probably keep combination leniency maiming mind , say take overly strong measures suppress urge sex adolescents benedikt
i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) subject inimitable rushdie organization technical university braunschweig , germany lines 11 article 1993apr16 1 eagle wesleyan edu kmagnacca eagle wesleyan edu writes \( deletion \) nope , germany extremely restrictive citizenship laws ethnic germans lived russia 100 years automatically become citizens move germany , turks third generation germany ca n't 's wrong benedikt
mangoe cs umd edu \( charley wingate \) subject little satanic organization u maryland , dept computer science , coll pk , md 20742 lines 43 jon livesey writes read papers texts different versions ot texts misunderstand \? reading newspapers learn kind stuff best idea world newspaper reporters notoriously ignorant subject religion , prone exaggeration interests real story \( , bigger headline \) let 's back 1935 point , masoretic text , various \( translations commentaries aramaic , etc \) , septuagint , ancient greek translation masoretic text standard jewish text essentially vary places obvious , copied faithfully copy copy passages past interpreted reference septuagint , septuagint differs masoretic text two particulars first , includes additional texts , second , passages variant readings masoretic text \( addition fixing various corrupted passages \) must emphasized , best knowledge , variations bible scholars , little theological import dead sea scroll materials add ancient copy almost isaiah fragments various sizes almost ot books also abundance material , far know , sign hebrew apocrypha \( extra texts septuagint \) far analysis proceeded , also variations dss texts masoretic versions tend reflect septuagint , latter n't obviously error , though , differences \( thus far \) significant theologically big expectation great theological surprises lurking material , far n't happened dss important almost textual tradition ot , unlike nt c wingate peace god , peace , strife closed sod mangoe cs umd edu yet , brothers , pray one thing tove ! mangoe marv'lous peace god
ray netcom com \( ray fischer \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization netcom san jose , california lines 91 frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes ray netcom com \( ray fischer \) writes frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes plus questions relativists get het idea relativism better objectivism \? degree relativism accurate truth objectivism , provides power ability control events think lose right talk truth say values relative accuracy value judgement , happens agree substance say , 's clear least values objective truth better falsehood , peace better war , education better ignorance know things , know anything 'll agree generally held good things , question whether come close objective values especially considering one time another viewed undesirable doubt could even come anything could said universally good bad referred truth using term , realizing full well may even thing assuming , moment , morals relative , two relativists recognize neither lock absolute truth proceed negotiate workable compromise produces desired results cannot , acknowledge front desired results exist , , meaning compromise plus problems relativists values common , compromise impossible happens \? , anyone , right \? happens one relativist value never compromise \? value plant bombs crowded shopping areas \? , morals relative , values cannot said incorrect true enough cannot said anything personal morals one thing notably lacking extremists sense personal accountability justification socially unacceptable behaviour invariably higher authority \( aka , absolute moral truth \) assuming absolute morality , two disagreeing either wrong one right room compromise beleive absolute morals , must accept amoral everyone disagrees amoral untrue one accept one know whole truth part objective truth morality may well flexibility better rigidity , compromise better believing lock morals , etc way , believe objective reality without claiming know mechanism quantum collapse , shot jfk objective truth says one cannot know objective truth \? interesting notion \) certainly one one 's morals belief compromise good compromise absolute truth something people successfully suppose one could hold compromise absolute moral , happens someone else insists compromise \? compromise compromising \? given choice peaceful compromise endless contention , 'd say compromise seems better would agree 's bloody pointless speak 's merely matter taste liking peace better founded someone else 's liking ice cream \? i'm looking way say yes question , relativism n't almost invariably considering relative value one thing another , morals consequences , people consider aspects justify desired action belief justifying peace might argue lets people live long healthy peaceful lives much may well true , incomplete ignoring benefits war killing agressive member society , trimming population , stimulating production equation always complex presented characterize relative morals merely following one 's conscience desires unduly simplify ray fischer convictions dangerous enemies truth ray netcom com lies friedrich nietzsche
vdp mayo edu \( vinayak dutt \) subject islamic banks \( slavery reply vdp mayo edu organization mayo foundation mayo graduate school rochester , mn lines 39 article monu6 cc monash edu au , darice yoyo cc monash edu au \( fred rice \) writes 1993apr14 bmw mayo edu vdp mayo edu \( vinayak dutt \) writes instead calling interest deposits , call returns instead calling loans call investing business \( words floating stocks company \) , interest different return investment one thing , return investment greater risk , set return \( e amount money make go , might even lose money \) difference , risk loss shared investor , rather practically risk taken bank different stocks \? wish call investor stocks , well choice make interest free ! ! , explained also still interest free investor still taking money dividend investment investor \( islamic banking , called bank \) taking risk usual bank , still getting thing back return also heard junk bonds \? \? \? vinayak vinayak dutt e mail vdp mayo edu standard disclaimers apply
kcochran nyx cs du edu \( keith justified ancient cochran \) subject n't need stinking subjects ! x disclaimer nyx public access unix system run university denver denver community university neither control responsibility opinions users organization loyal order lines 93 article gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) writes kcochran nyx cs du edu \( keith justified ancient cochran \) writes keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) writes kcochran nyx cs du edu \( keith justified ancient cochran \) writes , 're going claim something , prove think cold fusion well , 've provided examples show trend general , \( others \) provided , mostly ones surrounding mating practices , etc n't think cases enough disprove general trend natural morality , , mating practices need reexamined 're saying mind made , 'll explain away differences statistically insignificant \? try find immoral non mating related activities 're excluding mating related activities natural morality \? , mating practices special case 'll think 'll explain away theory special case yes , think natural system objectively deduced goal species propogation mind , equating two think , objective system n't necessarily natural one man wrote natural moral system objective moral system animals follow indeed , natural system objective , objective systems natural one , terms equated natural system subset objective ones equated read words , since homosexuality observed animals \( including birds dolphins \) , going claim animals capacity immoral \? n't claim homosexuality immoral n't harmful , although n't helpful either \( mating process \) , say homosexuality observed animal kingdom , n't mean bisexuality \? study release 1991 found 11 female lesbians well , i'm saying goals inherent must postulates , really way determine otherwise \( although could argued arise natural goal somewhat removed \) postulate assume posit 's right goals n't inherent create theory postulate sun around earth , moon actually made green cheese , stars portions angels three dimensional reality could , would contradict observations , apply last sentence theory notice observations \? build mathematical proof postulate given length one side triangle , length second side triangle , degree angle connecting , determine length third side postulate something generally \( always \) found true n't think postulate would valid n't know much math , \? ability use sas determine length third side triangle geometry guess one people going receptive order assume something system , able show postulates work yes , think goals survival happiness work think n't \? good goals \? goals postulates , one goals objective natural morality system proposing survival species , homosexuality immoral kcochran nyx cs du edu b \( 0 4 \) c e f g k \( \) r \( \) \( \) tsakc thoughts , posts , ideas , responsibility , beer , pizza ok \? \? \?
mandtbacka finabo abo fi \( mats andtbacka \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization unorganized usenet postings uninc lines 24 reply frank d012s658 uucp 's message 15 apr 1993 23 15 09 gmt x news reader vms news 1 24 horus ap mchp sni de frank d012s658 uucp writes \( attempting define morality' \) 'll take wild guess say freedom objectively valuable base assumption everyone world deprived utterly freedom \( every act contrary \) , almost would want complain long keep almost , freedom mostly valuable thing , people , think 're really saying , real big lot people agree freedom subjectively valuable 's good , quite nice starting point moral system , 's universal , thus objective therefore take assert believe freedom valuable , almost everyone see , every bit absurd assert raining rainy day n't disclaimer \? 's great young insane !
kcochran nyx cs du edu \( keith justified ancient cochran \) subject political atheists \? x disclaimer nyx public access unix system run university denver denver community university neither control responsibility opinions users organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept lines 66 article gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu \( keith allan schneider \) writes kcochran nyx cs du edu \( keith justified ancient cochran \) writes schneider natural morality may specifically thought code ethics certain species developed order survive wait talking ethics morals \? distinction important \? yes see countless times animal kingdom , natural system basis system well huh \? well , moral system seems mimic natural one , number ways please describe number ways detail explain contradictions may arise order humans thrive , seem need live groups , 's problem seem need 's wrong highlighted word \? n't know wrong \? possible humans survive long time wild \? yes , 's possible , difficult humans social animal , cause success define difficult order group function effectively , needs sort ethical code statement correct n't \? n't think \? explain laws america stating drive right hand side road , pointing conduct serves , trying give tautology , trying show examples moral systems goal propogation species goal natural system morality anybody lives relationship moral \? , order ensure propogation species , every man many women possible noted earlier , lack mating \( abstinence homosexuality \) n't really destructive system worst neutral every member species homosexual , would n't destructive survival species \? matter , herds horses , dominate stallion mates dies killed whatever , new dominate stallion one mates seems case natural system morality trying shoot foot , mating practices something reexamined whole theory needs reexamined kcochran nyx cs du edu b \( 0 4 \) c e f g k \( \) r \( \) \( \) tsakc thoughts , posts , ideas , responsibility , beer , pizza ok \? \? \?
phoenix princeton edu \( david aaron \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality originator news nimaster nntp posting host phoenix princeton edu organization princeton university lines 28 article 30136 ursa bear com halat pooh bears \( jim halat \) writes article horus ap mchp sni de , frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes firstly , science basis values , way round better explain objective atoms , get subjective values , go atoms objective n't even real scientists call atom nothing mathematical model describes certain physical , observable properties surroundings subjective rest deleted liberal arts major , \? guess never saw photo smallest logo world ibm made noble gas atoms \( krypton \? xenon \? forget specifics \) atoms , trees , electrons independently observable verifiable morals n't see difference \? men love brown tend warm deep , sensitive needs desires partners sex 24 hour day thing fire , walking rain catching tongue real turn lover brown \( thanx ! \)
subject death penalty \( political atheists \? \) ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu \( scott sauyet \) distribution world organization wesleyan university nntp posting host wesleyan edu x news reader vms news 1 20in reply jbrown batman bmd trw com 's message 16 apr 93 16 37 29 34 lines 34 jbrown batman bmd trw com writes \( 1993apr16 867 batman bmd trw com \) \( responding dave first official nickname fuller \) death penalty deterrent , dave person executed never commit crime guaranteed means effective anti measure say individual committing capital crime first place true question whether threat death likely actually stop one murdering \( commiting treason capital crimes anywhere usa \? \) , death penalty , would introduction deter would criminal committing crime \? doubt first step even strong deterrent \( short complete deterrent \) would reject case innocent executed \? even could eliminate possibility , would reject death penalty immoral makes something radical issue , although think many opponents punishment agree , find innocent executed strongest argument make would , magically placed charge , facilitate state aided suicide criminals life sentences could replacement capital punishment n't want live rest lives jail would always option scott sauyet ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu
mandtbacka finabo abo fi \( mats andtbacka \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization unorganized usenet postings uninc lines 51 reply cobb alexia lis uiuc edu 's message fri , 16 apr 1993 15 32 04 gmt x news reader vms news 1 24 news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu writes society came good reason rape murder ok would consistent position hold still wrong basis morality societal norms , current legalities basis , surprise surprise , bible inherent moral , ah ! , exactly , inherently \? 're saying , effect , think things repulsive , know whole bunch people agree , deemed absolutely immoral forever , period nice enough extent agree agree things immoral labeled good reason , reason even theoretically change , label yes , 's vague , way know top head defend say humans similarly made yes , falls trap creation , n't humans extent similar , belong species species evolved another story altogether certain extent evolution even lend credence moral \( flavour \) arguments better exhibit trust , goodness , love , respect , courage , honesty society rather , hatred , disrespect , , dishonesty 're saying morality 'll keep society alive kicking , think , point societies alike , neither , n't everywhere seen everyone , , according thesis , n't , since hold created similarly similar ! identical makes unfalsifiable thesis , say , 'll work fellow theists , 's falsifiable finding created different , whatever might real world disclaimer \? 's great young insane !
jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) subject yet rushdie islamic law organization boston university physics department lines 46 article afp fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes article bu edu , jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) writes hope islamic bank something bcci , ripped many small depositors among muslim community uk elsewhere grow , childish propagandist gregg , i'm really sorry pointed practice things n't quite wonderful utopia folks seem claim done thing example islamically owned operated bank someone bet n't real islamic owners operators \? islamic bank bank operates according rules islam regard banking done explicitly bank case bcci naive depositors put life savings bcci rather nasty interest motivated western bank street \? crap bcci motivated motives international banks , perhaps emphasis dealing outlaws intelligence services various governments please n't try con us thinking work right next time back childish propaganda really ought get life rather wasting bandwith empty typing thousands islamic banks operating throughout world one ever hears want talk corrupted banks talk people 've robbed american banks gregg
jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) subject inimitable rushdie organization boston university physics department lines 27 article shelley u washington edu jimh carson u washington edu \( james hogan \) writes 20 52 p come senses accept knowing wisdom power quran allah , allah drops congratulate wise choice allah rolls bones get allah gets , bends , invites take spin around block wow 20 56 p realize maybe allah looking commitment i'm ready , say man , 've got programming gotta go 'll call 20 59 p thinking , renounce islam loyalty ! jim , seems 've reading little much russell lately said , always imitate bad aspects writing would , doubt , say gregg
kv07 iastate edu \( warren vonroeschlaub \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality reply kv07 iastate edu \( warren vonroeschlaub \) organization ministry silly walks lines 28 article news cso uiuc edu , cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) writes morrow stanford edu salem pangea stanford edu \( bruce salem \) writes article news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) writes theory creationism theistic view theory creationism , \( many others \) stated genesis 1 beginning god created heavens earth wonderful , try alittle imaginative thinking ! huh \? imaginative thinking \? said \? would better said world existed forever never created endless supply energy spontaneous generation life non life \? would make wise , knowing , imaginative \? , least would theory l warren kurt vonroeschlaub kv07 iastate edu ` ' iowa state university math department 400 carver hall ames , ia 50011 j
mandtbacka finabo abo fi \( mats andtbacka \) subject go hell ! ! ! reply jsn104 psuvm psu edu 's message fri , 16 apr 1993 15 50 02 edt organization unorganized usenet postings uninc x news reader vms news 1 24 lines 12 93106 psuvm psu edu jsn104 psuvm psu edu writes cares fellow wrote anyway \? mean , came psuvm , could possibly importance \? \( smileys longer offended \) disclaimer \? 's great young insane !
kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) subject inimitable rushdie \( anecdote islam organization case western reserve university lines 19 distribution world , public nntp posting host b64635 student cwru edu article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) writes well , 1984 one allowed leave domain authority one free leave islam one regards islamic law curse one consider leaving islam way seems death 'd cheat hillary john laws local gop reprehensitive extolling traditional family values
kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) subject death penalty \( political atheists \? \) organization case western reserve university lines 28 nntp posting host b64635 student cwru edu article 1993apr17 daffy cs wisc edu mccullou snake2 cs wisc edu \( mark mccullough \) writes exagerate point libel gave unpopular reasons deliberately think let iraq absorb kuwait \? could make tired old 1939 poland comparison , think 've heard principle , never play chamberlain roll another country invaded invites invasions perhaps ought supported known \? provided weapon systems , tactical support , technology , etc made hussein bush call \? oh yes , ally 'd cheat hillary john laws local gop reprehensitive extolling traditional family values
i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) subject go hell ! ! ! organization technical university braunschweig , germany lines 18 article 93108 psuvm psu edu andrew newell tan102 psuvm psu edu writes article 93106 psuvm psu edu jsn104 psuvm psu edu writes blashephemers ! ! ! go hell believing god ! ! ! ! prepared eternal damnation ! ! ! readers group convenient n't real name let 's start letters sysadmin , shall \? real name jeremy scott noonan psuvm psu edu least authority , least know email psuvm bitnet respectively p p \( sys \) node probably better idea operator benedikt
i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) subject inimitable rushdie \( anecdote islam organization technical university braunschweig , germany lines 19 article bu edu jaeger buphy bu edu \( gregg jaeger \) writes \( deletion \) certainly central aspect islam show mercy give 've done wrong \( even rushdie violate islamic law \) committed crimes basis posts regarding leniency seemed penetrated benedikt 's skull demanded harsh punishments several crimes repeating offenders slipped justification harsh punishment typically religious doublespeak whenever contradictory statements choose possibility suits current argument disgusting someone ideas would make theodore feel cozy go along protection religion gregg , tell us , would kill idolaters \? benedikt
i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) subject islam scientific predictions \( genocide caused atheism \) organization technical university braunschweig , germany lines 19 article 1993apr17 monu6 cc monash edu au darice yoyo cc monash edu au \( fred rice \) writes \( god almighty \) created night day , sun earth \( bodies \) swim along , rounded course \( holy quran 21 33 \) hmm agrees system earth centre , planets round copernicus wrong ! n't read carefully look , see n't say anything circling anyway , moving circles evidence everything goes around rounded course general sense statements scientific benedikt
i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) subject wholly babble \( free moral agency \) organization technical university braunschweig , germany lines 10 article 5 p00261 psilink com robert knowles p00261 psilink com writes \( deletion \) course , also book subgenius whole collection writings well someone know ftp site \? benedikt
lipman oasys dt navy mil \( robert lipman \) subject call presentations navy vr seminar article oasys expires 30 apr 93 04 00 00 gmt reply lipman oasys dt navy mil \( robert lipman \) distribution usa organization carderock division , nswc , bethesda , md lines 65 call presentations navy scientific visualization virtual reality seminar tuesday , june 22 , 1993 carderock division , naval surface warfare center \( formerly david taylor research center \) bethesda , maryland sponsor ness \( navy engineering software system \) sponsoring one day navy scientific visualization virtual reality seminar purpose seminar present exchange information navy related scientific visualization virtual reality programs , research , developments , applications presentations presentations solicited aspects navy related scientific visualization virtual reality current work , works progress , proposed work navy organizations considered four types presentations available 1 regular presentation 20 30 minutes length 2 short presentation 10 minutes length 3 video presentation stand alone videotape \( author need attend seminar \) 4 scientific visualization virtual reality demonstration \( \) accepted presentations published proceedings , however , materials reproduced seminar attendees abstracts authors submit one page abstract videotape robert lipman naval surface warfare center , carderock division code 2042 bethesda , maryland 20084 5000 voice \( 301 \) 227 3618 fax \( 301 \) 227 5753 e mail lipman oasys dt navy mil authors include type presentation , affiliations , addresses , telephone fax numbers , addresses multi author papers designate one point contact deadlines submission deadline april 30 , 1993 notification acceptance sent may 14 , 1993 materials reproduction must received june 1 , 1993 information , contact robert lipman address please distribute widely possible , thanks robert lipman internet lipman oasys dt navy mil david taylor model basin lip ocean dt navy mil computational signatures \( 301 \) 227 3618 structures group , code 2042 \( 301 \) 227 5753 bethesda , maryland 20084 5000 stockings long legs sixth sick 's sixth sheep 's sick
weston ucssun1 sdsu edu \( weston \) subject graphical representation vector valued functions organization sdsu computing services lines 13 nntp posting host ucssun1 sdsu edu gnuplot , etc make easy plot real valued functions 2 variables want plot functions whose values 2 vectors plotting arrays arrows \( complete \) going , thought would ask whether someone already done work pointers \? \? thanx advance tom weston usenet weston ucssun1 sdsu edu department philosophy \( 619 \) 594 \( office \) san diego state univ \( 619 \) 575 \( home \) san diego , ca
rap cis ufl edu \( ryan porter \) subject dmorph article snoopy organization univ florida cis dept lines 34 nntp posting host cis ufl edu article 1993apr3 6442 usl edu ucs usl edu \( armstrong jay n \) writes someone please tell ftp dta dmorph \? dmorf \( dave 's morph , think means \) \( dave 's tga assembler \) available msdos uploads directory wuarchive bundled respective versions , exe exe , also find version exe , view files create dta exe exe downloaded whole bunch last week morphing away since bit buggy definitely ready spread masses , well written interface frustrating first , gets easy figure tricks noticed crash horribly try morph without using splines option sure , since n't source think written tp 6 0 anyone else comes hints getting thing work right , tell took several hours first time figure used splines would work usl edu ryan rap cis ufl edu
onyx cs virginia edu \( kenneth hinckley \) subject voice input vendor information needed reply onyx cs virginia edu \( kenneth hinckley \) organization university virginia lines 27 hello , looking add voice input capability user interface developing \( unix \) workstation would greatly appreciate information anyone would care offer voice input systems easily accessible unix environment names adresses applicable vendors , well experiences specific systems , would helpful please respond via email post summary sufficient interest thanks , ken p found several impressive systems ibm pc 's , would like avoid hassle purchasing maintaining separate pc possible ken hinckley \( virginia edu \) university virginia visualization laboratory
ersys edmonton ab ca \( joe \) subject find sipp \? organization edmonton remote systems 2 , edmonton , ab , canada lines 11 recently got file describing library rendering routines called sipp \( simple polygon processor \) could anyone tell ftp source code newest version around \? also , 've never used renderman wondering renderman like sipp \? ie library rendering routines one uses make program creates image thanks , joe joe ersys edmonton ab ca
andrey cco caltech edu \( andre \) subject 16 million vs 65 thousand colors organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 28 nntp posting host punisher caltech edu dtek chalmers se \( henrik \) writes 1 4 bits per r g b gives horrible machbanding visible almost picture 5 bits per r g b \( 32768 , 65000 colors \) gives visible machbanding color gradient picture almost machbanding color resolution see small machbanding smooth color gradient picture , , get visible mach banding even 24 bit card create smooth color gradient dark green white yellow something turn contrast monitor , probably see mach banding n't mean damn henrik 's attempt helpful , 's using common misconception corrected mach banding occur image color quantization see n't enough bits human eye 's response transitions edges intensities result colors near look brighter brighter side darker darker side andre andre andrey cco caltech edu \( 131 215 139 2 \)
oehler picard cs wisc edu \( eric oehler \) subject translating dxf article cs 1993apr6 distribution usa organization university wisconsin , madison computer sciences dept lines 8 mac user comes graphics \( 's software hardware \) 've recently come across large number format modeling databases software , mac unix , translating something could use , like dxf \? please reply via email thanx eric oehler oehler picard cs wisc edu
alex msk su \( alex \) subject help renderman language wanted ! reply alex msk su organization unknown lines 17 hello everybody ! using renderman 3d scene description language creating 3d worlds , please , help i'm using renderman library next documentation nextstep version renderman available create complicated scenes render using surface , bring life applying shadows reflections far understand define environmental shadows maps produce reflections shadows , know use advises simple rib c examples appreciated thanks advance alex moscow , russia imaging communications corporation e mail alex msk su \( next mail accepted \)
rowlands nosubdomain nodomain \( jon rowlands \) subject gray levels screen nntp posting host hc ti com reply rowlands hc ti com \( jon rowlands \) organization texas instruments , spdc , dsp technology branch , dallas lines 51 article cc tut fi , jk87377 lehtori cc tut fi \( kouhia juhana \) writes article 1993apr5 kpc com hollasch kpc com \( steve hollasch \) writes think 're proposal would work get extra one , maybe two extra bits color resolution however , display zero full intensity primary , n't think 'd get great equivalent 24 bit photographs suggested wrote problems , problem clearly visible 7 bit b w images mention 24 bit images description experiment deleted 1 bit images viewed quickly sync screen , 100 intensities could better dunno deleted case , getting black color slow machines problem could try 8 bit screens n't know render pixels x constant time recall double buffer image color one b w n't help either maybe dump photos screen low level code \? years ago friend took 256 grey level photos 1 bit mac plus screen using method displaying 256 levels synchronized 60hz display took 10 seconds experimenting different aperture settings screen found range worked well , giving respectable contrast quality images pretty good visible contrast bands minimize exposure time display program built 255 different 1 bit frames first contained dot pixels value 255 , second pixels value 254 , etc frames stored using sparse data structure fast onto screen sequence creating frames sometimes took 5 10 minutes old mac , camera shutter closed time anyway yes , wrote directly screen memory mea culpa biggest problem small images displayed top left corner screen instead center took extra week film developed printed , processors took trouble manually move images center print 'd guessed \? regards , jon rowlands
sloan cis uab edu \( kenneth sloan \) subject gray levels screen organization cis , university alabama birmingham lines 22 article csc ti com rowlands hc ti com \( jon rowlands \) writes years ago friend took 256 grey level photos 1 bit mac plus screen using method displaying 256 levels synchronized 60hz display took 10 seconds n't create 8 grey level images , display 1 , 2 , 4 , 8 , 16 , 32 , 64 , 128 time slices \? requires total exposure time , precision timing , drastically reduces image preparation time , \? kenneth sloan computer information sciences sloan cis uab edu university alabama birmingham \( 205 \) 934 2213 campbell hall , uab station \( 205 \) 934 fax birmingham , al 35294 1170
lex optimla aimla com \( lex van sonderen \) subject rumours 3do \? \? \? nntp posting host organization philips interactive media america lines 20 article zola esd sgi com erik esd sgi com \( erik fortune \) writes better cdi much better cdi course , agree horsepower horsepower measurement full motion , full screen video yet cd rom xa \? starting 4 quarter 1993 first 3do manufactured panasonic available late year number manufacturers reported 3do compatible boxes works manufacturers \? shall see date information third hand worth paid \) second hand , still hard look future \) lex van sonderen lex aimla com philips interactive media
iti gov sg \( chua teck \) subject \( 3d graphics windows \) organization information technology institute , national computer board , singapore lines 17 currently looking 3d graphics library runs ms windows 3 1 libraries \? \( must run vga require add graphics cards \) , run high c compiler v3 0 \? email contact author \? help would much appreciated thanks chua , teck information technology institute email iti gov sg 71 science park drive phone \( 65 \) 772 singapore \( 0511 \) fax \( 65 \) 779
cst garfield catt ncsu edu \( caroline tsang \) subject graphics library package article ncsu 1993apr6 organization computer technologies theme program , ncsu , raleigh lines 15 hi , looking good royalty free graphics library package c c program mainly use write children games education software heard someone mentioned also gfx \? good \? please pardon question sounds little strange , asking question friend thanks advance ! caroline tsang cst garfield catt ncsu edu
netcom com \( gert \) subject rumours 3do \? \? \? article netcom organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 39 article optimla aimla com lex optimla aimla com \( lex van sonderen \) writes article zola esd sgi com erik esd sgi com \( erik fortune \) writes better cdi much better cdi course , agree horsepower horsepower measurement full motion , full screen video yet cd rom xa \? starting 4 quarter 1993 first 3do manufactured panasonic available late year number manufacturers reported 3do compatible boxes works manufacturers \? shall see date 3do marketing rep recently offered phillips marketing rep 100 bet 3do would boxes market schedule phillips rep declined bet , probably knew 3do players already pre production manufacturing runs , 6 months commercial release date time commercial release , manufacturers 3do players announced possibly already production chip sets full production number software companies designing titles box 300 know \? bar road 3do headquarters last week folks little loudly company business information third hand worth paid \) second hand , still hard look future \) lex van sonderen lex aimla com philips interactive media impartial source !
\( h l \) subject graphics library package organization university illinois urbana lines 2
dialix oz au \( steve \) subject wanted summary wanted keywords article dialix organization dialix services , perth , western australia lines 12 nntp posting host localhost dialix oz au x newsreader nn version 6 4 19 1 hi , i'm interested writing program generate picture , know cross eyes picture becomes 3d anyone one know get one \? please e mail dialix oz au replies many thanks help steve q
ari lpr carel fi \( ari \) subject graphics packages available aix \? organization oy lines 24 nntp posting host lpr carel fi keywords gks graphics anybody know good 2d graphics packages available ibm rs 6000 aix \? i'm looking something like dec 's gks hewlett starbase , reasonably good support different output devices like plotters , terminals , x etc tried also xgks x11 distribution ibm 's implementation phigs work require output devices x windows salesman ibm familiar graphics expecting good solutions ari ari ari carel fi oy finland
wijkstra fwi uva nl \( marcel wijkstra \( aio \) \) subject bw hardcopy colored window \? keywords color hardcopy print nntp posting host ic fwi uva nl organization fwi , university amsterdam lines 38 mars de \( martin stein \) writes use xwd xpr \( x11r5 dist \) various programs ppm tools print colored x windows problem , n't like xpr gives \( least , x11r4 version \) output hardcopy looks instead , use pnmtops takes full advantage postscript , lets printer dirty job dithering \( \) image black white dots postscript printer , try convert ppm smaller file print pnmtops postscript lpr print pnmtops several neat options , use care want image 4 wide , use pnmtops scale 100 width 4 prevents image rotated \( wider high \) width 4 specifies paper width \( image width see \) scale 100 used image small , may fit within width less 4 , thus printed smaller 4 wide first scale lot , certainly fit 4 , scaled pnmtops automatically fit specified paper width short pnmtops scale image fit paper size , blow automatically hope helps marcel x marcel wijkstra aio \( wijkstra fwi uva nl \) x faculty mathematics computer science x university amsterdam netherlands life stinks fortunately , 've got cold
jk87377 lehtori cc tut fi \( kouhia juhana \) subject gray levels screen organization tampere university technology lines 21 distribution inet nntp posting host cc tut fi article 1993apr6 909 cis uab edu sloan cis uab edu \( kenneth sloan \) writes n't create 8 grey level images , display 1 , 2 , 4 , 8 , 16 , 32 , 64 , 128 time slices \? '8 grey level mean 8 items images \? work \( ! \) , n't work screen screen intensity non linear 2 bit per pixel could 1 c 1 4 c 2 timing , gives 16 levels , linear screen intensity linear 1 c 1 2 c 2 works , find best 's 10 levels , 16 best 10 must chosen different level , varies bit , levels keeps order readers verify wrote \) juhana kouhia
ufr info p7 ibp fr \( \) subject looking ! keywords nntp posting host ufr info p7 ibp fr organization universite paris 7 ufr lines 5 ca n't find \( connect dots smoother \) france commercial program 'll happily pay whatever may cost \( take \) please help ! lots pov sources , texture images animations though , looking something , tell
ufr info p7 ibp fr \( \) subject pov previewer nntp posting host ufr info p7 ibp fr organization universite paris 7 ufr lines 10 actually trying write something like encounter problems , amongst drawing 3d wireframe view requires explicit equation \( x , , z functions parameters \) convert implicit equation used pov explicit one \? mathematically always possible \? n't enough math find , anybody heard useful books subject \?
dsnyder falcon aamrl wpafb af mil subject real time graphics \? \? distribution na organization usaf al cfh , wpafb , dayton , oh lines 30 article taurus cs nps navy mil , oahu oc nps navy mil \( jim \) writes hi , writing data acquisition program collect data variety sources including rs232 , external 's , would like able display data near realtime 've done type thing pc 's machines , unaware graphics package could help unix machine anyone ideas commercial free packages might suit needs \? would really appreciate input i'm sure done many times commerical package try wave precision visuals 505 530 free package try khoros university new mexico 508 277 ftp eece unm edu login ftp valid email address password cd pub khoros release get right place david
scrowe hemel bull co uk \( simon crowe \) subject bgi drivers svga summary ftp site svga driver keywords bgi , svga nntp posting host bogart organization bull hn uk lines 11 require bgi drivers super vga displays super displays anyone know could obtain relevant drivers \? \( ftp sites \? \? \) regards simon crowe
d91 fad hj se \( daniel \) subject vesa speedstar 24 organization h j nk ping lines 39 nntp posting host et hj se kjb mgl zip universal vesa driver supports video boards chipsets \( include speedstar 24 24x \) 24 bit color terry p 've tried speedstar 24 24x works \) software \( instance n't work animator pro autodesk ca n't detect svga modes running univesa really problem need vesa driver aa pro hi color stuff \( curiosity using latest version \( 3 2 \) \? versions previous fill capabilities bits information correctly problems lot software got version \( n't think author got around posting \( least missed \) , 3 2 available directory indicated 3 29 \) sure use version 3 2 works fine software animator pro one quite important pretty useless program without thing working imho hope author fix daniel ! ! daniel n't quote ! comments ! ! ! ! ! great wizard ! ! ! ! d91 fad hj se ! ! ! ! hj se also known mega famous musician ! ! ! ! , yellow ones ! !
situnaya ibm3090 bham ac uk subject \( none set \) organization university birmingham , united kingdom lines 5 nntp posting host ibm3090 bham ac uk bear i'm new game , could anyone explain exactly dmorf , simply fade one bitmap another shape one p another please excuse ignorance , i' even sure 've posted thi message correctly
situnaya ibm3090 bham ac uk subject help wanted dmorf ! organization university birmingham , united kingdom lines 6 nntp posting host ibm3090 bham ac uk please bear new game , apologize hav e posted another message earlier mistake digress , could anyone th ere please explain exactly dmorf \( exe \) simply fade one bitmap another one bitmap another excuse
situnaya ibm3090 bham ac uk subject test \( sorry \) organization university birmingham , united kingdom lines 1 nntp posting host ibm3090 bham ac uk
stgprao st unocal com \( richard ottolini \) subject rumours 3do \? \? \? organization unocal corporation lines 5 need hit software product encourage software sales product , e pong , pacman , , dbase , pagemaker multi media multi media digital television products already , albeit , capable 3do 's compelling reasons buy yet \? perhaps someone news group write hit software \)
subject technical help sought husc11 harvard edu \( \) organization harvard university science center nntp posting host husc11 harvard edu lines 9 hi ! immediate need details various graphics compression techniques know could obtain descriptions algo public domain source codes formats jpeg , gif , fractals , would immensely grateful could share info project contemplating thanks advance please reply via e mail possible
srp travis csd harris com \( stephen \) subject surface normal orientations article travis organization harris csd , ft lauderdale , fl lines 20 nntp posting host travis csd harris com rendering programs require surface normals point direction \( ie closed cube , normals point \) use points faces determine direction normal , making sure points either clockwise counter clockwise order go normals direction , given set points , edges faces \? say cube faces normals facing , except one face 's best way realize face flipped , 's points ordered \? thought good way telling , realized algorithm would tell points clockwise order 2d polygon 'd like something 3d data hints , tips , references would appreciated steve humor concerned standards one say good bad , although sure everyone john kenneth opinions
egerter gaul csd uwo ca \( barry egerter \) subject graphics library package organization computer science dept , univ western ontario , london , canada nntp posting host obelix gaul csd uwo ca lines 43 wgt graphics toolkit , designed truly co programmer \( brother \) chris egerter turbo borland c graphics library programming 320 200 256 vga currently producing shareware , years may commercial product \( excuse typos , 's terminal \) features include loading saving bit images \( called blocks herein \) flipping , resizing warping blocks loading saving palette , fading , several memory graphics primitives line , circle , bar , rectangle region fill \( usually useless \) sprites \( animated bitmaps \) , 200 joystick mouse support sb support \( \) tile based game creation using 16 16 pixel tiles create 320 200 tile map \( game world \) like duke nuke 'em number sprites increased 1000 professional sprite creator utility map maker routines simplify scrolling games using maps , etc fli playing routines , sprites animated fli playing pcx support , soon gif ems xms coming soon well leave e mail barry egerter egerter obelix gaul csd uwo ca files available \( use mget wgt zip \) simtel20 mirrors pd1 msdos turbo c nic funet fi pub msdos games programming sites may recent files , contact info regarding date information
imaging club office wang com \( imaging club \) subject signature image database organization mail news gateway wang labs lines 21 contact corp 800 800 original memo bcc vincent wall imaging club subject signature verification \? date sent 05 04 93 sci image processing ece arizona edu \( qi \) subject signature image database organization u arizona electrical computer engineering hi , could someone tell database handwriting signature images available evaluating signature verification systems thanks yy
sloan cis uab edu \( kenneth sloan \) subject surface normal orientations article cis 1993apr6 1973 organization cis , university alabama birmingham lines 16 article 1993apr6 cis uab edu sloan cis uab edu \( kenneth sloan \) writes brilliant algorithm seriously 's correct , sign change flaw obvious , therefore shown sorry kenneth sloan computer information sciences sloan cis uab edu university alabama birmingham \( 205 \) 934 2213 campbell hall , uab station \( 205 \) 934 fax birmingham , al 35294 1170
server uwindsor ca \( \) subject genoa 24 hits ni ! lines 3 sorry , genoa card nothing ati ultra plus 2mb ca n't , plus ati costs 330 us street price
sloan cis uab edu \( kenneth sloan \) subject surface normal orientations organization cis , university alabama birmingham lines 42 article travis csd harris com srp travis csd harris com \( stephen \) writes go normals direction , given set points , edges faces \? look edge inconsistencies consider two vertices , p q , connected least one edge \( p , q \) edge , \( q , p \) appear \( p , q \) \( q , p \) appear edges , surface travel across edge bad assuming \( warning warning warning \) otherwise acceptable surface pick edge , edge , surface enforcing consistency edge 0 \) pick edge \( p , q \) , mark ok 1 \) face , f , containing edge \( 2 , oops \) make sure edges f consistent \( e , face \( p , q \) , \( q , r \) , \( r , \) , \( , \) , \( , p \) \) flip wrong mark edges f ok , add queue \( check duplicates , especially inconsistencies n't let queue \( p , q \) \( q , p \) \) 2 \) remove edge queue , go 1 \) marked edge discovered inconsistent , lose step 1 \) finds one face sharing particular edge , lose otherwise , done , edges consistent means surface normals either point deciding way left exercise kenneth sloan computer information sciences sloan cis uab edu university alabama birmingham \( 205 \) 934 2213 campbell hall , uab station \( 205 \) 934 fax birmingham , al 35294 1170
gavin krypton asd sgi com \( gavin bell \) subject surface normal orientations organization silicon graphics , inc mountain view , ca lines 38 nntp posting host krypton asd sgi com travis csd harris com srp travis csd harris com \( stephen \) writes go normals direction , given set points , edges faces \? algorithm works well algorithm attempt find outward facing normals first , mark faces unknown create edge dictionary allows find faces sharing given edge \( edge two integers representing two shared vertices \) pick arbitrary face mark counter clockwise using edge dictionary , orient surrounding faces based orientation face surrounding faces , consistently entire surface find average vertices surface using point , calculate volume measurement , taking account face 's orientation volume turns positive , assume faces oriented correctly negative , reverse orientations \( mark clockwise \) faces still unknown , choose another face go algorithm end , faces marked clockwise must indices reversed facet normals found \( note running silicon graphics machines buy iris inventor 3d toolkit developers package source algorithm see usr src inventor tools 're sorry , ca n't give source , even could relies heavily inventor \) gavin \( gavin sgi com , \( 415 \) 390 1024 \)
dtek chalmers se \( henrik \) subject 16 million vs 65 thousand colors nntp posting host dtek chalmers se organization chalmers university technology , gothenburg sweden lines 37 andrey cco caltech edu \( andre \) writes dtek chalmers se \( henrik \) writes 1 4 bits per r g b gives horrible machbanding visible almost picture 5 bits per r g b \( 32768 , 65000 colors \) gives visible machbanding color gradient picture almost machbanding color resolution see small machbanding smooth color gradient picture , , get visible mach banding even 24 bit card create smooth color gradient dark green white yellow something turn contrast monitor , probably see mach banding n't mean damn henrik 's attempt helpful , 's using common misconception corrected mach banding occur image color quantization see n't enough bits human eye 's response transitions edges intensities result colors near look brighter brighter side darker darker side andre yeah , course term correct one , 've quantization although bad color quantization effect could result visible mach bands picture smooth henrik internet dtek chalmers se chalmers university technology , sweden n't lost mind 's backed tape somewhere
dsnyder falcon aamrl wpafb af mil subject real time graphics \? \? distribution na organization usaf al cfh , wpafb , dayton , oh lines 27 article 1993apr5 falcon aamrl wpafb af mil , dsnyder falcon aamrl wpafb af mil writes article taurus cs nps navy mil , oahu oc nps navy mil \( jim \) writes hi , ! typed phone numbers wrong correct numbers commerical package try wave precision visuals 303 530 9000 free package try khoros university new mexico 505 277 ftp eece unm edu login ftp valid email address password cd pub khoros release
cad gmeds com \( brian h \) subject iges viewer dos windows organization eds cadillac lines 10 nntp posting host cad gmeds com anybody know iges viewer dos windows \? need able display computervision iges files pc running windows 3 1 thanks advance brian h email cad gmeds com electronic data systems phone \( 313 \) 696 note views opinions expressed herein mine , reflect electronic data systems corp
ns1 cc lehigh edu \( richard ritter \) subject computer graphics vcr \? organization lehigh university lines 15 help friend class project trying make computer animated movie sorts disney animation would like put vcr possible \? easy relatively cheap \? \? 386 ibm compatibles relatively clueless computers could help please thanx ritter cosmic physical delight
engr engr uark edu \( barton hodges \) subject stereoscopic imaging summary stereoscopic imaging keywords stereoscopic nntp posting host engr engr uark edu organization university arkansas lines 8 interested information stereoscopic imaging sun workstation part , need know hardware available interface system whether refresh rates sufficient produce quality image representations information subject would greatly appreciated thanks !
ab nova cc purdue edu \( allen b \) subject fractals \? good \? organization purdue university lines 51 article pdxgate uucp idr rigel cs pdx edu \( ian romanick \) writes one thing small change initial conditions cause huge change final conditions certain things way plate volcanic activity effect land , entirely random , unpredictable also true fractals , one could also conclude could model yeah , 's also true long complicated sequences events , calculations , big computer programs general n't argue get similar maybe useful results fractals , question whether fractal seem saying part system ca n't model replaced random number generator useful , instance , making data palatable human perception torture testing rest system , n't think much fractals , certainly would rather model improved manner guess n't seen earth shaking fractal models explain correlate universe actually exists really hope , i'm holding self similar breath one thing fractals good fractal image compression uh huh 'll believe see 've chasing fractal compression years , still n't believe 's great , come n't see competing jpeg \? 'cause ca n't , 'll wager actually , , quit trying make fractal compression work trying n't think 's reasonable alternative techniques neat , though \) 'll reiterate disbelief everything fractal 's n't think fractal compression widely explained practical know sloan tricks sleeves make demos work , n't see anyone using real product 's six years since iterated systems formed , right \? always going questions 's product , sloan replies company plans ship first encoding devices summer , says march , iterated systems half system decoders scientific american , march 1990 , page 77 allen b \( n't even get started \) \)
ranjan cs ubc ca \( ranjan \) subject complex \( e real imaginary parts \) bio medical images organization computer science , university b c , vancouver , b c , canada lines 7 distribution world nntp posting host cs ubc ca complex bio medical images available anywhere net experimentation \? complex mean every sampled data point magnitude phase information thanks pointers ,
uxa cso uiuc edu \( lord \) subject mpeg ms dos organization university illinois urbana lines 13 anyone know ftp mpeg dos \? thanks help advance email preferred posting fine scott lord , knight email uiuc black rose next sumter cso uiuc edu ' , clue want say wo n't say anything
jack com \( jack ritter \) subject help ! ! article distribution usa organization , sunnyvale lines 9 need complete list polygons , order 'll summarize net compiled ' g' option
geoffrey cosc canterbury ac nz \( geoff thomas \) subject help ! 256 colors display c keywords graphics article cantua organization university canterbury , christchurch , new zealand lines 21 nntp posting host canterbury ac nz 'll probably set palette try drawing new colours use bios interrupt calls set r g b values \( range 0 63 cards \) particular palette colour \( range 0 255 256 colour modes \) able draw pixels palette values result ok might bit colourmap compressing 256 unique rgb , 256 colour mode geoff thomas geoffrey cosc canterbury ac nz computer science dept university canterbury private bag christchurch ! new zealand
cs ubc ca \( markus \) subject rumours 3do \? \? \? organization computer science , university b c , vancouver , b c , canada lines 16 nntp posting host larry cs ubc ca stgprao st unocal com \( richard ottolini \) writes need hit software product encourage software sales product , e pong , pacman , , dbase , pagemaker multi media multi media digital television products already , albeit , capable 3do 's compelling reasons buy yet \? perhaps someone news group write hit software \) 've good fortune hired electronic arts senior computer graphics artist vancouver , canada office \) timing lot 3do ea putting lot resources know titles developed yet happy post things develop start may 3 markus
rpi edu \( hugh johnson \) subject quicktime movie available article mustang organization rensselaer polytechnic institute lines 31 nntp posting host mustang stu rpi edu article mustang stu rpi edu , wrote 've used recently released macintosh application mpeg quicktime convert excellent mpeg canyon mpg quicktime movie anyone would want movie perfectly able convert , thought 'd let net know 'd glad mail copies mine movie conversion took close six hours poor little iicx words , unless 've got quadra , might want tie machine converting file movie fast fly fractal generated canyon landscape movie 58 seconds long , uses compact video compressor \( e , quicktime v1 5 \) movie looks okay 8 bit displays , looks absolutely awesome 16 24 bit displays 'd happy mail movie first 20 people ask caveat need able receive nine megabyte mail message \( movie stuff seven megs , binhex ruined party \) 20 people want movie , 's evidence net needs dedicated quicktime ftp archive site c'mon , someone 's gotta spare 1 2gb drive okay , 've received whole lot requests movie , simplicity 's sake ca n't mail 've already received \( 16 30 edt , tuesday \) maybe 'll pop site sooner later hugh johnson \( rpi edu \) rensselaer polytechnic institute welcome macintosh troy , new york , usa
george ccmail larc nasa gov \( george brown \) subject qc msc code view save images organization client specific systems , inc lines 12 nntp posting host larc nasa gov dear binary , looking quick c microsoft c code image decoding file vga viewing saving images gif , tiff , pcx , jpeg format internet , like trying find dr spell checker tsr must , 's need reinvent wheel thanx advance internet like black hole
subject autocad tiff done \? \? \? \? vmsb csupomona edu organization california state polytechnic university , pomona nntp posting host nntp posting user lines 9 hello , realize might faq ask since n't get change read newsgroup often anyways senior project need convert autocad file tiff file please n't need anyone telling autocad file vector file tiff bit map since heard 100 times already would like know anyone knows least point right direction help greatly appreciated , matt
amjad eng umd edu \( amjad \) subject gamma law correction organization project glue , university maryland , college park lines 22 distribution usa expires 05 15 93 nntp posting host filter eng umd edu hi digitizing ntsc signal displaying pc video monitor known display response tubes non linear sometimes said follow gamma law certain non gamma corrected encoding ntsc signals tv display supposed correct also , 256 grey levels , example , coded c program intensity levels appear linear brightness pc monitor \? words pc monitor display circuitry correct gamma \? response much appreciated amjad amjad ccs , computer science center u maryland college park email amjad wam umd edu
mlee eng sdsu edu \( mike lee \) subject mpeg x windows mono needed organization san diego state university computing services lines 4 nntp posting host eng sdsu edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 hello , thank reading request mpeg viewer x windows run running monochrome monitor need mono driver mpeg play please post location file better yet , e mail mlee eng sdsu edu
ab nova cc purdue edu \( allen b \) subject algorithm organization purdue university lines 15 article shelley u washington edu stein u washington edu \( kevin shin \) writes trying obtain program handwriting characters like algorithm , graph anyone know obtain \? usually use algorithms graphics image processing , people got idea 3 4 copies libraries stolen ! another reference digital image processing gonzalez wood , widely available little expensive \( 55 checked today \) ab
ab nova cc purdue edu \( allen b \) subject tiff philosophical significance 42 organization purdue university lines 20 article 1993apr10 696 galki toppoint de ulrich galki toppoint de writes according tiff 5 0 specification , tiff version number \( bytes 2 3 \) 42 chosen deep philosophical significance last week , read hitchhikers guide galaxy , actually picked number 42 \? i'm sure , amused every time read part tiff spec , i'm none happy complexity spec anyway think arbitrary carefully chosen number neither additionally , find choice 4 bytes begin file meaningless use letters tiff \? \( , n't think bothered support word orders either 've found many tiff readers actually n't \) ab
rob rjck uucp \( robert j c kyanko \) subject vga 640x400 graphics mode distribution world organization neptune software inc lines 15 essex ecn uoknor edu writes article constellation ecn uoknor edu greetings ! anybody know possible set vga graphics mode 640x400 instead 640x480 \? info appreciated ! vesa bios 's support mode \( \) vga able support \( 640x480 256 colors \) since requires 256 , 000 bytes 8514 vesa tsr supports 's vesa mode card support due 8514 restrictions \( wd paradise \) responsible anything say i'm opinion robert j c kyanko \( rob rjck uucp \)
rob rjck uucp \( robert j c kyanko \) subject weitek p9000 \? distribution world organization neptune software inc lines 23 iastate edu writes article iastate edu anyone know weitek p9000 graphics chip \? micron selling systems rank 50 winmarks info would help thanks 's supposedly high performance chip based upon workstation graphics accelerators 's quite fast \( 7 \) , usual new boards chips drivers buggy windows far winmarks go , depends upon version think got 42m winmarks version 3 11 2 5 yielded 50 number 've also wintach 65 \( memory well \) far low level stuff goes , looks pretty nice 's got fill command requires four points 's fast , beware buggy drivers , otherwise non windows support responsible anything say i'm opinion robert j c kyanko \( rob rjck uucp \)
aix rpi edu \( michael c lewis \) subject delaunay triangulation nntp posting host aix rpi edu organization rensselaer polytechnic institute , troy , ny lines 16 article caspian usc edu zyeh caspian usc edu \( zhenghao yeh \) writes anybody know delaunay triangulation \? reference \? useful creating 3 objects \? yes , 's advantage \? used create tin \( triangulated irregular network \) , basically bunch triangles form surface group points special triangles formed possible check proceedings n n 8 10 sorry , n't specific reference describing process michael
saturn rest tasc com \( dan \) subject graphic formats organization tasc lines 7 nntp posting host saturn rest tasc com writing convert regis sequences useful formats would rather goto bitmap format convert window meta files easily enough , would rather convert corel draw , cdr , ms power point , , files microsoft would give format wondering anybody knows formats two applications
scr siemens com \( anthony \) subject nice gif code nntp posting host siemens com organization siemens lines 7 thing called grandfather xv 8
fischer auc dk \( lars peter fischer \) subject rumours 3do \? \? \? reply archer esd sgi com 's message 6 apr 93 18 18 30 gmt organization mathematics computer science , university optimla aimla com 1993apr6 2190 unocal com zola esd sgi com lines 11 archer archer \( bad cop \) surly \( archer esd sgi com \) archer interactive sex madonna \? short lars lars fischer , fischer auc dk takes uncommon mind think cs dept , univ , denmark things calvin
crash uucp \( frank crash edwards \) subject forms curses reply crash myrddin com \( frank crash edwards \) organization edwards edwards consulting lines 40 note followup header rintintin colorado edu \( steele mark \) writes collection forms routines used curses \? located \? svr4 amiga unix box , 've got , , use curses library guess provide \? \) unix press , ie prentice hall , programmer 's guide tools , referred \( forms language interface \) \( extended terminal interface \) , 's 2nd edition isbn 0 13 7 paraphrased outside back cover high level programming tool creating menus , forms , text frames set screen management library subroutines promote fast development application programs window , panel , menu , form manipulation shell package reads ascii text files produces screen displays data entry presentation consists shell like environment program 's database files section 1f unix press manual subroutines , part 3x manual section , provide support multi window capability ordinary ascii terminal controls built top curses library thanks mark steele rintintin colorado edu frank crash edwards edwards edwards consulting voice 813 786 crash myrddin com , please data 813 787 n't ask uunet route 's times life everyone meet back tells great hold wallet
craft camp clarkson edu \( neal miller \) subject trying view pov files nntp posting host craft clarkson edu organization clarkson university lines 31 sage cc purdue edu \( brian \) writes article 1993apr11 ornl gov ednobles sacam oren ortn edu \( edward nobles \) writes 've trying view tga files created povray diamond speedstar 24 video board \( 24x \) far convert jpeg using cjpeg view cview displays 8 bit color i'm looking way convert view 24 bit univesa \( uvesa31 zip \) dvpeg viewer n't get anything perhaps setting univesa properly \? anyone ideas please feel free enlighten want see darn things real color image alchemy \( aka alchemy \) view tga files pov outputs format think also convert 's shareware , 's probably available ftp somwhere netland yep alchemy works fine dac , think remember reading displays 15 bit course , 's still 32k colors nothing sneeze use v flag neal miller go mad \? craft camp clarkson edu clarkson university ford prefect dark craft camp clarkson edu
trb3 ra msstate edu \( tony r \) subject hot new 3d software keywords imagine , 3d nntp posting host ra msstate edu organization mississippi state university lines 20 new product \( \) called imagine started shipping yesterday personally attest blow doors 3d studio made impulse , 3rd version \( 1st \) ibm morphing , standard key animation , raytracer \( reflections shadows \) , apply special fx objects \( like ripple , explode , bounce \) things nature also algorithmic texture maps standard also animated \( ie live video mapped \) also animated \( ie live video backgrounds \) also reflections maps get idea run 500 retail \( think \) dont let low price fool product comes 3d animation ! also anyone know get imagine mailing list \? \? please e mail post oh number impulse 1 800 328 trb3 ra msstate edu
mbc po cwru edu \( michael b comet \) subject hot new 3d software organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 34 reply mbc po cwru edu \( michael b comet \) nntp posting host thor ins cwru edu previous article , trb3 ra msstate edu \( tony r \) says new product \( \) called imagine started shipping yesterday personally attest blow doors 3d studio made impulse , well n't know competing 3d studio , 's pretty powerful allright also anyone know get imagine mailing list \? \? please e mail post yes , send e mail imagine request email sp paramax com header something like subscribe actually work faq \( frequently asked questions \) new version next week , want , could e mail previous one details list etc well answering basic questions imagine hope helps ! michael b comet software engineer graphics artist cwru mbc po cwru edu silence oppose freedom speech
student tc umn edu \( david j 1 \) subject vga 640x400 graphics mode nntp posting host student tc umn edu organization university minnesota lines 23 article rjck uucp rob rjck uucp \( robert j c kyanko \) writes essex ecn uoknor edu writes article constellation ecn uoknor edu greetings ! anybody know possible set vga graphics mode 640x400 instead 640x480 \? info appreciated ! vesa bios 's support mode \( \) vga able support \( 640x480 256 colors \) since requires 256 , 000 bytes 8514 vesa tsr supports 's vesa mode card support due 8514 restrictions \( wd paradise \) responsible anything say i'm opinion robert j c kyanko \( rob rjck uucp \) ahh possibly punched wrong numbers calculator 256 color modes take byte per pixel 640 time 480 307 , 200 300k exact takes 250k n't think bios mode would n't bet vga cards either vga card 512k bet 640x400 640x480 definition svga , though high svga
denver colorado edu subject tin files lines 15 hi ! working project needs create contour lines random data points work done far tells need look triangulated irregular networks \( tin \) , , method anyone suggestions references , programs hopefully source code creating contours help surface modeling would greatly appreciated reached addresses paul conway copper denver colorado edu denver colorado edu
dgp toronto edu \( michael \) subject apr 20 toronto siggraph event organization university toronto dynamic graphics project distribution na lines 48 toronto siggraph 's 2d graphics animation indigo ken evans , , inc tuesday 20 april 1993 7 00pm 9 00pm mcluhan centre culture technology university toronto queen 's park crescent toronto members non members alike \( non members encouraged become members \) abstract , inc entering early beta site testing silicon graphics workstations new 2d abstract artwork animation package called chance 's art package described demonstrated , technical issues discussed marketing plans outlined talk also present technical business problems increasingly confronting small startup software companies today , opportunities situation presents time event allocated hands demonstrations interested parties silicon graphics graciously providing indigo event also demonstrating computerized interactive reflective , installed upstairs mcluhan centre , feel free drop demonstration event btw , sure sing happy birthday , names siggraph executive offices announced meeting nominations still open election may 18th event call 465 fax 465 0729 directions mcluhan east side queen 's park crescent , north wellesley , south st joseph st , behind \( east \) 39 queen 's park crescent , centre studies information toronto siggraph membership , contact michael via internet dgp utoronto ca voice 652 978 978 fax 653
dave watson watson maths uwa edu au subject delaunay triangulation organization university western australia lines 29 distribution world reply watson maths uwa edu au nntp posting host maths uwa oz au zyeh caspian usc edu \( zhenghao yeh \) writes anybody know delaunay triangulation \? reference \? delaunay triangulation geometrical dual constructions derived natural neighbor order , f , 1991 , diagrams survey fundamental geometric data structure acm computing surveys , 23 \( 3 \) , p 345 405 okabe , , boots , b , , k , 1992 , spatial concepts applications diagrams wiley sons , new york , isbn 0 471 5 , watson , f , 1981 , computing n dimensional delaunay application computer j , 24 \( 2 \) , p 167 172 watson , f , 1985 , natural neighbour sorting australian computer j , 17 \( 4 \) , p 189 193 dave watson internet watson maths uwa edu au department mathematics university western australia tel \( 61 9 \) 380 nedlands , wa 6009 australia fax \( 61 9 \) 380 1028
cbnewsi cb att com \( herman r \) subject ansi ms 53 standard image file format organization keywords image , file format lines 6 wing suggestion stu , posted image file format executable source code alt sources herman
nmt edu \( catherine craig \) subject trying view pov files organization new mexico tech lines 23 article 1993apr11 ornl gov ednobles sacam oren ortn edu \( edward nobles \) writes 've trying view tga files created povray diamond speedstar 24 video board \( 24x \) far convert jpeg using cjpeg view cview displays 8 bit color i'm looking way convert view 24 bit want see darn things real color thanks , jim nobles best program 've seen viewing files vpic 'll want version 5 9 later \( 6 0x current \) allows view 15 24 bit modes really quite nice , return question run windows \? , dates drivers \? newest ones find around 4 \? \? 92 ! ! problem conflict star trek dark , things well i'm willing bet 's drivers , programs anyone info newer \( x \) drivers windows os 2 \? thanks , justin
graeme labtam labtam oz au \( graeme gill \) subject looking circle algorithm faster bresenhams organization labtam australia pty ltd , melbourne , australia lines 28 article 1993apr13 nwnexus wa com , mpdillon halcyon com \( michael dillon \) writes algorithm similar bresenhams line drawing algorithm , draws line stepping along minor axis drawing slices like , , following diagram yes , 's known bresenhams run length slice algorithm incremental lines see fundamental algorithms computer graphics , springer verlag , berlin heidelberg 1985 tried extrapolate circles ca n't figure determine length slices ideas \? hmm n't think help , might take look following double step incremental generation lines circles , x wu j g , computer graphics image processing , vol 37 , 4 , mar 1987 , pp 331 334 double step generation ellipses , x wu j g , ieee computer graphics applications , may 1989 , pp 56 69 graeme gill
subject e mail michael \? eis calstate edu \( george \) organization calif state univ electronic information services lines 0
g9134255 wampyr cc uow edu au \( coronado emmanuel abad \) subject fonts pov \? \? organization university wollongong , nsw , australia lines 11 nntp posting host wampyr cc uow edu au keywords fonts , raytrace seen several ray traced scenes \( mtv rayshade \? \? \) stroked fonts appearing objects image fonts chars color , depth even textures associated wondering , possible pov \? \? thanks , noel
rrz uni koeln de \( erwin h keeve \) subject polygon reduction marching cubes organization regional computing center , university cologne lines 36 distribution world nntp posting host rrz uni koeln de keywords polygon reduction , marching cubes , surfaces , visualisation dear reader , i'am searching implementation polygon reduction algorithm marching cubes surfaces think best one reduction algorithm schroeder et al , siggraph '92 , implementation algorithm , would nice could leave also i'am looking fast ! ! ! connectivity test marching cubes surfaces help hints useful thanks lot , , , \( \) ooo \( \) ooo erwin keeve adress peter 2 w 5000 cologne 1 , germany dept phone 49 221 132 \( 192 \) fax 49 221 17 academy media arts cologne email keeve khm uni koeln de
stefan lis e technik tu muenchen de \( stefan \) subject zip info another dos mpeg decoder player posted keywords mpeg , dos reply stefan lis e technik tu muenchen de organization technische universitaet muenchen , germany lines 74 posted dos mpeg decoder player alt binaries pictures utilities short description technical information , taken accompanying documentation v1 0 public domain mpeg decoder stefan 0 features another mpeg decoder player pc decodes \( nearly \) full mpeg video standard \( , p , b frames , frame size least supported \) saves decoded sequence 8 24bit raw file later display optional screen display decoding \( requires vga \) several dithering options ordered dither , floyd steinberg , grayscale color space selection runs dos , 640kb ram , ms windows required compact \( small code small data models , 16 bit arithmetic \) real time display raw file separate player vga many super 4 technical information player rather straightforward implementation mpeg spec 1 based chen wang 13 multiplication algorithm 2 \( quite optimum , know \) blocks eight non zero coefficients use non separated direct multiply accumulate 2d \( sounds great , n't \? \) , turned faster algorithm \( quite common \) case dithering pretty standard main difference berkeley decoder \( except fewer number supported algorithms \) use 256 instead 128 colors , \( default \) option use restricted color space implementation color saturation dominant ordered dither leads significantly superior quality dithered image \( claim , judge \) restricted color space means u v components clipped 0 25 \( instead 0 5 \) display color space points distributed restricted space since distance color space points thus reduced factor two , color resolution doubled expense able represent fully saturated colors saturation dominant ordered dither method color , lying somewhere points display color space , primarily alternating two points constant hue instead constant saturation yields better quality due lower sensitivity human viewing system saturation changes hue changes \( reasoning used pal tv standard improve ntsc \) improvement particularly visible dark brown areas stefan , stefan lis e technik tu muenchen de
scrowe hemel bull co uk \( simon crowe \) subject point within polygon summary algorithm find point bound polygon keywords point , polygon nntp posting host bogart organization bull hn uk lines 7 looking algorithm determine given point bound polygon anyone code reference book containing information subject \? regards simon
john mcc ac uk \( john \) subject pov reboots pc memory upgrade reply john nessie mcc ac uk organization mcc network unit lines 13 last week , running povray v1 0 486 33 dos5 without major problems easter increased memory 4meg , found povray reboots system every time dos5 go running povray dos window running win3 1 system works fine , even lot slower would like go back using povray directly dos , anyone ideas \? \? \? john john central administrator mcc network unit , university , oxford road , manchester , m13 9pl phone \( 44 \) 61 275 6011 fax \( 44 \) 61 275 6040 packet 16 eu
af774 cleveland freenet edu \( chad cipiti \) subject good shareware paint animation software sgi \? organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 15 reply af774 cleveland freenet edu \( chad cipiti \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu anyone know good shareware animation paint software sgi machine \? 've exhausted net find still n't nice piece software thanks alot ! chad knock , knock chad cipiti 's \? af774 cleveland freenet edu cipiti bobcat ent ohiou edu might heisenberg chad ohiou edu
hendrix oasys dt navy mil \( dane hendrix \) subject processing stereo images reply hendrix oasys dt navy mil \( dane hendrix \) organization code 1542 , , bethesda , md lines 16 i'm interested find involved processing pairs stereo photographs black white photos would like obtain surface contours 'd prefer processing sgi , would interested hearing software hardware used type image processing please email post comp sys sgi graphics responses thanks , dane hendrix email dane wizard dt navy mil \( k headquarters , carderock div , hendrix oasys dt navy mil naval surface warfare center \) hendrix nas nasa gov code 1542 , bethesda , md 20084 5000 phone \( 301 \) 227
jgreen amber \( joe green \) subject weitek p9000 \? organization harris computer systems division lines 14 distribution world nntp posting host amber ssd csd harris com x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 robert j c kyanko \( rob rjck uucp \) wrote iastate edu writes article iastate edu anyone know weitek p9000 graphics chip \? far low level stuff goes , looks pretty nice 's got fill command requires four points weitek 's address phone number \? 'd like get information chip joe green harris corporation jgreen csd harris com computer systems division thing really scares person sense humor jonathan winters
lds loral com \( ed \) subject sun os 8bit ascii graphics organization loral data systems distribution comp graphics lines 7 would like know anyone luck using upper 128 ascii characters sun station trying convert fortran program run sun write character buffers sun contain char \( 218 \) char \( 196 \) char \( 197 \) etc get characters screen characters standard ascii tables ideas help appreciated
clipper mccarthy csd uwo ca \( yee fung \) subject looking circle algorithm faster bresenhams organization department computer science , university western ontario , london , ontario , canada reply graeme labtam labtam oz au 's message wed , 14 apr 1993 04 49 46 gmt 1993apr13 nwnexus wa com 1993apr14 labtam labtam oz au nntp posting host mccarthy csd uwo ca lines 41 wed , 14 apr 1993 04 49 46 gmt , graeme labtam labtam oz au \( graeme gill \) said graeme yes , 's known bresenhams run length slice algorithm graeme incremental lines see fundamental algorithms computer graphics , graeme springer verlag , berlin heidelberg 1985 tried extrapolate circles ca n't figure determine length slices ideas \? graeme hmm n't think help , might graeme take look following graeme double step incremental generation lines circles , graeme x wu j g , computer graphics image processing , graeme vol 37 , 4 , mar 1987 , pp 331 334 graeme double step generation ellipses , x wu j g , graeme ieee computer graphics applications , may 1989 , pp 56 69 another paper might want consider article , title run length slice line drawing algorithm without division operations , author yee fung k , journal computer graphics forum , year 1992 , volume 11 , number 3 , pages c 267 c 277 yee yee fung clipper csd uwo ca department computer science middlesex college university western ontario london , ontario canada tel \( 519 \) 661 fax \( 519 \) 661
msc jhunix hcf jhu edu \( daniel q \) subject geometry package organization homewood academic computing , johns hopkins university , baltimore , md , usa lines 11 distribution world nntp posting host jhunix hcf jhu edu looking package takes inputs set geometric objects defined unions convex specified manner , say , determines reasonable form things like intersections , unions , etc etc anyone know find thing \? dan department mathematical sciences johns hopkins university
spl ivem ucsd edu \( steve lamont \) subject point within polygon organization university calif , san diego microscopy imaging resource lines 15 nntp posting host ivem ucsd edu keywords point , polygon article 1993apr14 bull co uk scrowe hemel bull co uk \( simon crowe \) writes looking algorithm determine given point bound polygon anyone code reference book containing information subject \? see article efficient ray polygon intersection , p 390 graphics gems \( isbn 0 12 5 \) second step , intersecting polygon , want sample code book spl steve lamont , sciviguy \( 619 \) 534 7968 spl szechuan ucsd edu san diego microscopy imaging resource uc san diego la jolla , ca 92093 0608 bolsheviks , , meeting
ferdinan oeinck waterland wlink nl \( ferdinand oeinck \) subject distance two bezier curves organization node groningen , nl lines 14 cs hut fi \( pekka \) writes suppose two cubic bezier curves \( control points v1 , , v4 w1 , , w4 \) equal first last control points \( v1 w1 , v4 w4 \) get upper bound distance curves distance \? distance one point \( ti \) first curve point curve parameter \( u ti \) \? references appreciated thanks pekka
jonas isy liu se \( jonas \) subject point within polygon keywords point , polygon organization dept ee , university linkoping lines 129 scrowe hemel bull co uk \( simon crowe \) writes looking algorithm determine given point bound polygon anyone code reference book containing information subject \? well , 's since discussed take liberty \( without permission , sue \) eric haines reprint interesting discussion topic jonas x snip snip x give man fish , 'll eat one day give man fishing rod , 'll around fishing never anything mind , reprint \( without permission , sue \) relevant information posted years ago problem note early use postscript technology , many year 's papers listed april 1st siggraph program announcement posted days ago eric intersection line polygon \( undecidable \? \? \) , dave , tom duff deb graphics cornell edu newsgroups comp graphics keywords p , np , jordan curve separation , theorem organization program computer graphics article uucp \( timothy lyle smith \) writes need find formula algorithm determine line polygon would prefer method would little time possible need use forward raytracing program think difficult problem start , lines polygons semi algebraic sets contain number points ideas first , need check line polygon separated , jordan curve separation theorem says polygon divides plane exactly two open \( thus non compact \) regions thus , line lies completely inside polygon , line lies completely outside polygon , possibly \( rarely happen \) line , phrasing question says line polygon , decision problem one possibility \( decision model approach \) reduce question \( well known \) problem q , try solve q answer q gives answer original decision problem recent years , many geometric problems successfully modeled new language called postscript \( see postscript language , adobe systems incorporated , isbn 0 201 3 , co 1985 \) , given line l polygon p , write postscript program draws line l polygon p , outputs answer output , mean program executes command called showpage , actually prints page paper containing line polygon quick examination paper provides answer reduced problem q , thus original problem two small problems approach \( 1 \) infinite number ways encode l p reduced problem q , forced invoke axiom choice \( , 's \) use axiom choice regarded serious light days \( 2 \) importantly , question arises whether postscript program q actually output piece paper words , halt \? , postscript enough encode everything turing machine might thus problem \( postscript \) undecidable quite possible original problem turn undecidable wo n't even begin go difficulties , aliasing , finite precision running ink , paper couple references might 1 mathematica newton , cambridge university press , cambridge , england \( sorry , n't isbn \) 2 introduction theory , languages , computation , j , j 3 c programming language , b , 4 tale two cities dickens , c td alice uucp \( tom duff \) summary overkill organization bell laboratories , murray hill nj situation nearly bleak suggests \( know better , 's hung around labs long enough \) well known reduction \( see j , j comp 37 , ii pp 33 947 , 17 \( \) \) line polygon intersection reduced circuit , without \( ! \) use bases , lpi \( coin acronym \) probably np complete besides , turing completeness longer problem cray 3 delivered , since able complete infinite loop 4 milliseconds \( scatter gather \) deb cs cornell edu \( david \) well , sure worse np complete , 's restrict case line satisfies condition second derivative \( think 's '89 siggraph paper caltech deals \) j n n g v e n email jonas isy liu se dept electrical engineering voice 46 \( 0 \) 13 university linkoping , sweden fax 46 \( 0 \) 13
zyeh caspian usc edu \( zhenghao yeh \) subject point within polygon organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 28 distribution world nntp posting host caspian usc edu keywords point , polygon article 1993apr14 bull co uk , scrowe hemel bull co uk \( simon crowe \) writes looking algorithm determine given point bound polygon anyone code reference book containing information subject \? regards simon basically , two algorithms determining whether point inside , outside polygon first one ray \( half line \) method method , draw ray , number intersection point ray polygon even , outside number odd , inside cause , deal special cases may make headache second method pi algorithm draw lines point vertices polygon calculate sum angles successive lines result 2 pi , inside pi , polygon otherwise outside experience tells second method hope helps yeh usc
austin ibm com \( christopher chan nui \) subject two pointing devices one com port \? reply austin ibm com organization ibm austin x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 22 bob davis \( sonny trantor harris atd com \) wrote article unix portal com , wil shell portal com \( ville v walveranta \) writes way connect two pointing devices one serial port \? n't tried believe would interfere \( \? \) even one time would used get b switch rs232 look computer shopper available fairly cheap allow switching two serial devices single port unfortunately poster wants use internal external modem switch n't going help n't using com ports anything else , define different com ports define internal modem say , com1 , external modem com3 really n't worry interrupt conflicts since wo n't using modems time \) christopher chan nui investment reliability increase austin ibm com exceeds probable cost errors , someone include disclaimer h insists getting useful work done
ab nova cc purdue edu \( allen b \) subject fractals \? good \? organization purdue university lines 17 article pdxgate uucp idr rigel cs pdx edu \( ian romanick \) writes talked another routine could yield 150 1 compress image loss could notice draw back takes hell long time compress something 'll see find book give exact numbers 's typical claim , though say 've improved compression speed considerably find anything else book \? 'd interested looking could give pointers reportedly , early fractal compression times 24 100 hours used marvelous piece hardware called grad students work supposedly 's automated since 1988 , i'm still waiting impressed allen b \( sign cynical \)
clump cs mcgill ca \( clark \) subject bgi drivers svga organization socs , mcgill university , montreal , canada x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 29 dominic lai \( cs cs ust hk \) wrote simon crowe \( scrowe hemel bull co uk \) wrote 8 require bgi drivers super vga displays super displays 8 anyone know could obtain relevant drivers \? \( ftp sites \? \? \) would like know ! regards , dominic garbo uwasa fi \( one many mirrors \) file called programming subdirectory svga bgi drivers variety cards readme card types supported \( supervga drivers \) ahead , ati , chips tech , everex , genoa , paradise , oak , trident \( 8900 , 9000 \) , tseng \( 3000 4000 chipsets \) video7 drivers also work video cards vesa capability drivers work register compatible vga card enjoy , clark clump cs mcgill ca honk honk wak wak wak wak wak !
cptully med unc edu \( christopher p , pathology , \) subject tiff philosophical significance 42 nntp posting host helix med unc edu reply cptully med unc edu organization unc ch school medicine lines 40 article mentor cc purdue edu , ab nova cc purdue edu \( allen b \) writes article 1993apr10 696 galki toppoint de ulrich galki toppoint de writes according tiff 5 0 specification , tiff version number \( bytes 2 3 \) 42 chosen deep philosophical significance last week , read hitchhikers guide galaxy , actually picked number 42 \? i'm sure , amused every time read part tiff spec , i'm none happy complexity spec anyway think arbitrary carefully chosen number neither additionally , find choice 4 bytes begin file meaningless use letters tiff \? \( , n't think bothered support word orders either 've found many tiff readers actually n't \) ab tight \? matter , , gripe problems \? also , important , volunteer help define critique spec finally , little numerology 42 24 backwards , tiff 24 bit image format chris christopher p cptully med unc edu univ north carolina chapel hill cb \( 919 \) 966 chapel hill , nc get paid opinions , n't mean unc anybody else agrees
emm cray com \( mike mcconnell \) subject interleaf cgm originator emm keywords interleaf , cgm , ileaf lines 13 nntp posting host cray com organization cray research , inc anyone successfully converted interleaf graphics cgm , even heard done \? \? \? \? 'd love hear mike mcconnell emm cray com
mogal asd sgi com \( joshua mogal \) subject hollywood hits , virtual reality organization silicon graphics , inc lines 137 nntp posting host asd sgi com sorry missed raymond , dahlgren last month i'm virtual reality market manager silicon graphics , perhaps help little article relay nswc navy mil , rchui nswc wo nswc navy mil \( raymond chui \) writes hello , real reality agency started express interest virtual reality \( vr \) far , know much vr know hollywood movies 2 man also know something vr abc news magazine computer graphics world magazine unfortunately , sgi systems used create special effects terminator 2 lawnmower man , film quality computer graphics , rendered software written film frame time frame computer animation films took hours render high end parallel processing computer systems thus , level graphics would difficult , impossible , acheive real time \( 30 frames per second \) certainly want know vr leading companies , agencies , universities \? machines support vr \( e sgi , sun4 , hp 9000 , bim 6000 , etc \) \? depends upon serious advanced application true visualization \( vr \) , requires rendering complex visual databases anywhere 20 60 newly rendered frames per second similar requirement traditional flight pilot training frame rate low , user notices stepping frames move head rapidly around scene , motion graphics smooth contiguous thus graphics system must powerful enough sustain high frame rates rendering complex data representations additionally , frame rate must constant system renders 15 frames per second one point , 60 frames per second next \( perhaps due scene new viewing direction simpler visible \) , user get heavily distracted medium \( graphics computer \) rather focusing data maintain constant frame rate , system must able run real time unix general support real time operation , silicon graphics modified unix kernel multi processor systems able support real time operation , bypassing usual unix process priority management schemes systems running unix cannot fundamentally support real time operation \( sun sparc10 , hp 700 series systems , ibm rs 6000 , even sgi 's systems like indigo crimson \) multiprocessor onyx challenge systems support real time operation due symmetric multi processing \( \) shared memory architecture graphics perspective , rendering complex virtual environments requires advanced rendering techniques like texture mapping real time multi sample anti aliasing general purpose graphics systems market today , crimson onyx systems fully support capabilities anti aliasing particularly important , crawling jagged edges aliased polygons unfortunate distraction virtual environment kind graphics languages used vr \( gl , opengl , phigs , pex , gks , etc \) \? use general purpose graphics libraries listed develop vr applications , starting pretty low level shelf software packages available get going much faster , targeted directly vr application developer popular \( particular order \) division inc \( redwood city , ca \) inc \( sausalito , ca \) naval postgraduate school \( monterey , ca \) \( free ! \) gemini technology corp \( irvine , ca \) series paradigm simulation inc \( dallas , tx \) , silicon graphics inc \( mountain view , ca \) iris performer others , top head companies making interface devices vr \( goggles boom \( omni monitor \) , , gloves , arms , etc \) \? many list , fake space labs \( menlo park , ca \) boom virtual technologies inc \( stanford , ca \) digital image design \( new york , ny \) \( 3d input \) kaiser electro optics \( , ca \) sim eye helmet displays virtual research \( sunnyvale , ca \) flight helmet display virtual reality inc \( , ny \) head displays , w software systems \( san jose , ca \) 3d modeling software etc , etc , etc company 's addresses phone numbers \? get list name vr experts phone numbers email addresses \? read vr books market virtual reality ken ken texiera \( sp \? \) virtual mirage artificial reality myron etc check newsgroup sci virtual worlds feel free contact info regards , josh joshua mogal product manager advanced graphics division advanced graphics systems silicon graphics inc market manager 2011 north shoreline blvd virtual reality mountain view , ca 94039 interactive entertainment 9l 580 tel \( 415 \) 390 fax \( 415 \) 964 e mail mogal sgi com
ab nova cc purdue edu \( allen b \) subject point within polygon keywords obfuscated postscript organization purdue university lines 60 article jonas jonas isy liu se \( jonas \) writes intersection line polygon \( undecidable \? \? \) , dave , tom duff deb graphics cornell edu recent years , many geometric problems successfully modeled new language called postscript \( see postscript language , adobe systems incorporated , isbn 0 201 3 , co 1985 \) , given line l polygon p , write postscript program draws line l polygon p , outputs answer output , mean program executes command called showpage , actually prints page paper containing line polygon quick examination paper provides answer reduced problem q , thus original problem curiously , modern postscript , point polygon problem solved even easily wit ! title point polygon creator allen b \( ab cc purdue edu \) amusement comp graphics regulars 2 humor sense thereof program test whether point inside given polygon currently uses even odd rule , changed replacing level 2 operators , 've got level 1 're luck result printed output stream caution accurate device pixels ! put huge scale first n't sure point test put x coordinates 50 75 vertices polygon counter clockwise order put array pairs coordinates 0 0 100 0 100 100 67 100 67 50 33 50 33 100 0 100 dup 0 get pop dup length 1 dup 3 1 roll sub pop \( yes ! \) \( ! \)
robert cpuserver acsc com \( robert grant \) subject virtual reality x cheap ! organization , los angeles lines 187 distribution world reply robert cpuserver acsc com \( robert grant \) nntp posting host cpuserver acsc com hi everyone , thought people may interested vr software groups announcing release multiverse 1 0 2 multiverse multi user , non , x windows based virtual reality system , primarily focused entertainment research features client server based model , using berkeley sockets limit number users \( apart performance \) generic clients customizable servers objects \( allowing attachment cameras light sources \) multiple light sources \( ambient , point spot \) objects extension code , handle unique functionality , easily attached functionality client client built around render loop basically changes things told server renders image user 's viewpoint also provides server information user 's actions communicated clients therefore users client designed generic words n't need develop new client want enter new world means resources spent enhancing client software rather , explained moment , occur servers release client software supports following functionality hierarchical objects \( associated addressing \) multiple light sources types \( ambient , point spot \) user interface panels colour polygonal rendering phong shading \( optional wireframe faster frame rates \) mouse keyboard input \( people may disappointed software n't support powerglove input device ca n't , n't one ! , however , one first enhancements ! \) server \( \) customization take place following basic support provided release potential world server developers transparent client management client message handling may sound like much , takes away headache accepting terminating clients receiving messages application writer work assumption things happening locally things get interesting object extension functionality provided allow objects server selectable extension installation means decide objects extended functionality world basically call extension want event handler registration develop extensions object basically write callback functions events want object respond \( current events supported init , move , change , terminate \) collision detection registration want object respond collision events provide basic information collision detection management software callback activated collision occurs software kept separate applications application developer wants build library extended objects choose following need make world server application provide function choose object extensions supported , plus initialization want provide function determine place new client provide function load world \( \) file new client provide function tell new client persona provide function go wild ! minimum let objects move \( calling move function \) let server sleep bit \( avoid outrunning clients \) 's ! prove line counts three world servers 've provided generic 81 lines 270 lines \( complicated collision detection due stairs ! probably improved future versions \) 72 lines location software located following site ftp u washington edu directory pub virtual worlds file multiverse 1 0 2 tar z client texture mapping realistic rendering e z buffering \( similar \) , shading support etc , etc server physical modelling \( gravity , friction etc \) enhanced object management interaction etc , etc improved comms ! ! ! hope provides people good understanding multiverse software , unfortunately comes practically zero documentation , i'm sure whether ever able rectified ! \( hope people enjoy software useful virtual universe 've certainly found fascinating developing , would love add support powerglove \) ! ! finally one major disclaimer totally amateur code mean support code , kindness heart , , pure desperation , provide cannot held responsible anything good bad may happen use code use risk ! disclaimer ! course love , would like anyone positive contributions criticisms also encouraged contact anyone hates dev null ! anyone wants let living know write \) ! thanks , robert robert acsc com
robert cpuserver acsc com \( robert grant \) subject virtual reality x cheap ! organization , los angeles lines 11 distribution world reply robert cpuserver acsc com \( robert grant \) nntp posting host cpuserver acsc com update location ! ! directory public virtual worlds ! ! sorry ! \) robert robert acsc com
freenet carleton ca \( jason wiggle \) subject pcx organization national capital freenet , ottawa , canada lines 27 hello help ! ! ! please student turbo c graphics programming problems finding algorithms code teach stuff 1 \) book code teach read write pcx , , gif files \? 2 \) access extra ram paradise video board paging higher vga modes ie 320x200x256 800x600x256 3 \) anybody got line good book help answer question \? thanks much ! send reply 's palm bitnet peace blessed stephen palm
ux1 cso uiuc edu \( crying freeman \) subject 's good assembly vga programming book \? organization university illinois urbana lines 9 someone give title good vga graphics programming book \? please respond email thanks ! yuan che yuan wang uxa cso uiuc edu ux1 cso uiuc edu
davidr rincon ema rockwell com \( david j ray \) subject fractals \? good \? organization rockwell international x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 lines 16 regards fractal , seen 2 fractal compressed movies fairly impressive first one 64 gray scale movie , 1 3mb 11 minutes 13 fps video little bad second one saw 3 minutes 8 bit color measured 1 2mb consider fractal movies practical thing explore unlike many formats , end losing resolution n't know kind software hardware used creating movies saw guy showed said took 5 15 minutes per frame generate said playback 10 frames per second else could put 11 minutes one floppy disk \? davidr rincon ema rockwell com opinions except shared others case probably change mind
serge argus msk su subject vga 640x400 graphics mode distribution world organization commercial industrial group argus reply serge argus msk su lines 7 8514 vesa tsr supports report crt register state mode \? thank 's serge \( serge argus msk su \)
boylan pi iastate edu \( boylan \) subject reaction diffusion techniques organization engineering animation , inc lines 24 past week 've playing r \( reaction diffusion , confused r \) techniques siggraph '91 wondering material available explain control mechanism little seems much like matter picking random magic numbers sitting back waiting although papers \( turk \) well organized extremely helpful , guess need basic description technique , especially wrt control mechanisms tests tendency either turn blurry mud become unstable info available online \? source code would great necessary thanks ! j boylan , sr artist programmer 's better loved engineering animation , inc , ames , ia lost \( 515 \) 296 \( 515 \) 296 \( 5pm \) lost dog
parsec paradyne com \( robert \) subject 24 bit graphics cards nntp posting host parsec reply parsec paradyne com organization paradyne , largo florida lines 10 looking eisa vesa local bus graphic cards support least resolution know matrox one , expensive cards know , support , isa also x servers unix pc support 24 bits \? thanks
dls dsto gov au \( david silver \) subject fractal generation clouds organization defence science technology organisation lines 14 nntp posting host kestrel dsto gov au nye edu \( frederick j \) writes need implement algorithm generate clouds sort benchmark algorithms i'm working matter interest , self promo computer graphics sequence one local tv stations used play quite lot couple years ago showed 3d australia west coast east clouds quite fuzzy , flat , white sets ! ! david silver
rgc3679 bcstec ca boeing com \( robert g carpenter \) subject please recommend 3d graphics library mac organization boeing computer services lines 15 hi netters , i'm building cad package need 3d graphics library handle rudimentry tasks , hidden line removal , shading , animation , etc please offer recommendations \? 'll also need contact info \( name , address , email \) find thanks \( please post responses , case others need \) bob carpenter
kai h postoffice utas edu au \( kai \) subject hot new 3d software organization university tasmania \( australia \) lines 20 article usenet ins cwru edu , mbc po cwru edu \( michael b comet \) wrote previous article , trb3 ra msstate edu \( tony r \) says new product \( \) called imagine started shipping yesterday personally attest blow doors 3d studio made impulse , well n't know competing 3d studio , 's pretty powerful allright yes key issue speed fast imagine \? easy use 3d studio \? render fast 3ds n't want things like etc 3ds fine shadows , animated reflection maps , animated bump maps , animated anything maps , ipas routines \( 've ever seen \) explosions , top quality morphing , fire , rain , lens flares etc i'm knocking imagine , want know compares 3ds
franklin cc utas edu au \( mark mackey \) subject raytracers best \? organization university tasmania , australia lines 15 hi ! 've recently become seriously hooked pov , thing want pov wo n't \( shadows , dispersion etc \) wondering shareware freeware raytracers , \? 've heard vivid polyray rayshade , 'd rather wade several hundred pages manual trying work capabilities anyone help \? comparison tracing speed program would also mucho useful mark mark mackey life terminal disease oxygen ml csiro au addictive hooked \?
petro server uwindsor ca \( petro david \) subject shareware distribution comp graphics organization university windsor , ontario , canada lines 20 recently saw latest computer shopper article nice shareware graphics programs looked pretty good 6 listed article , one \( graphics workshop \) , one found via archie \( draft choice old version though \) rest could n't find anyone knows get following programs via anonymous ftp , please let know graphics zip , zip draft choice \( latest vga version \) zip envision publisher zip , zip zip thanx advance petro david petro big , dumb , dept physics north american ape university windsor petro server uwindsor ca
mmadsen bonnie ics uci edu \( matt madsen \) subject please recommend 3d graphics library mac nntp posting host bonnie ics uci edu reply mmadsen ics uci edu \( matt madsen \) organization univ calif , irvine , info computer sci dept lines 27 robert g carpenter writes hi netters , i'm building cad package need 3d graphics library handle rudimentry tasks , hidden line removal , shading , animation , etc please offer recommendations \? 'll also need contact info \( name , address , email \) find thanks \( please post responses , case others need \) bob carpenter would like 3d graphics library ! much c libraries cost anyway \? get tools used , say , renderman , get reasonable cost \? sorry n't answers , questions matt madsen mmadsen ics uci edu
stein u washington edu \( kevin shin \) subject algorithm organization university washington , seattle lines 10 nntp posting host stein u washington edu hi , netters looking source code reads ascii file bitmap file produced image example , character image want apply algorithm thanks kevin
seas gwu edu \( joseph \) subject looking autocad dxf file parser organization george washington university lines 16 hello anyone know c c function libraries public domain assist parsing autocad dxf file \? please e mail thanks , seas gwu edu
zyeh caspian usc edu \( zhenghao yeh \) subject delaunay triangulation organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 9 distribution world nntp posting host caspian usc edu anybody know delaunay triangulation \? reference \? useful creating 3 objects \? yes , 's advantage \? thanks advance yeh usc
krusty eecs umich edu \( arun \) subject cylinder ray reply engin umich edu organization university michigan eecs dept , ann arbor , mi lines 19 article darkstar ucsc edu , secs ucsc edu writes would thrilled kind person could help following given cylinder 3d defined line segment two points radius \( e g sx , sy , sz ex , ey , ez r \) , easiest \( expensive \) way find ray defined another line two points cuts cylinder \? think test touching rather simple closest approach two lines less r , ray penetrate cylinder nope , wo n't work cylinder line arbitrarily close cylinder backbone , yet intersect test works , though \( cylinder two hemispheres attached ends \) thanks , ryan \( secs ucsc edu \) arun
lee luke hac com \( c lee \) subject crimson \( kubota announcement \? \) organization hughes transportation simulation center , hac culver city , ca lines 30 article bu edu problem inews gateway file \( keith \) writes c lee \( lee hac com \) wrote say dec alpha \? upgrade path replace upgrade path vax alpha replace system totally fair n't mentioned decstation series think sgi made cisc mainframes would n't provide upgrade path onyx agree upgrade path think fair original posting complained \( 1 \) sgi coming newer \( better \) architectures upgrade path older ones , \( 2 \) dec statement \( 1 \) , merely attempted point computer companies constantly attempting improve product \( market position share \) , eventually come point new architecture , upgrade path replace system particular system complaining \( computer lifetimes \) relatively old statement \( 2 \) , felt dec 's history providing upgrades far superior industry average , , opinion , sgi 's history better dec 's \( dec 's mips based decstation line \? going abandon alpha based line , provide upgrade path 's 's r5 's \? \)
iscsvax uni edu subject book correction ! ! ! organization university northern iowa lines 11 address ftp site holds images correct address jupiter csd unb ca rather jupiter csd unb edu directory pub library info jon williams university northern iowa
ultb isc rit edu \( j x lee \) subject job nntp posting host ultb gw isc rit edu organization rochester institute technology distribution lines 45 job opportunity \( systems engineering research institute \) , \( korea institute science technology \) looking resumes following position need end june \( 6 30 \) interested , send resumes cad cae lab \( 6th floor \) systems engineering research institute korea institute science technology gu , dong , korea 305 600 company systems engineering research institute title senior research scientist job description depth knowledge c working knowledge computer aided design working knowledge computer graphics working knowledge virtual reality skills required desirable knowledge data modeling , virtual reality experience , understanding client server architecture requirement ph job location , korea contact info ho , lim cad cae lab \( 6th floor \) systems engineering research institute korea institute science technology gu , dong , korea 305 600 phone \) 82 42 869 fax \) 82 42 861 1999 e mail \) 129 21 200 201
egg dsto gov au subject chosing optimal colors colormap \? organization defence science technology organisation lines 12 nntp posting host dsto gov au hi , i'm looking algorithm would generate good cross section rgb colours given limited colour map size problem i'm writing application pc may 256 colors want use one colormap \( palette \) application 'd like contain even spread colours visible spectrum could use rgb cube problem lot colours almost identical human eye anyone know optimize choice colors \?
rsc altair csustan edu \( steve cunningham \) subject siggraph summary free lunch year ! organization csu lines 27 eng sun com \( scott r nelson \) writes dave mikelson almac co uk \( dave mikelson \) writes anyone know 'open public time \? , attend conferences , browse around exhibits exhibits etc fully registered attendees \? free long got siggraph july 7 1991 , similar 20 00 free july 9 safe assume kind deal available year got advance program card back exhibits plus program exhibits plus admission number conference , including special general session , behind scenes computer graphics film admission free , nominal 30 \( exhibits open august 3 5 \) get copy advance program , call 312 321 advance program good indication excitement conference ! register early get free sorry n't work year ! steve cunningham
rosa ghost dsi unimi \( massimo rossi \) subject 3d studio works changes ! ! ! ! organization computer science dep milan university lines 28 hi guys like people group i'm fans fractal render sw favourite fractint pov 2 0 listen ideas starting able use quite well i'm full animation f1 grand prix lap \( 10 \? \) i' interested kind prj 3ds concerning cars parts \( motors wheel \) \( dxf good enough \) anyone object give complete hard animation anyway exchanges object material project ! ! ! ! ! ftp site find \? i' looking pov files \( 'm interested cpu time comparision rendering images pov \) thank email rosa ghost sm dsi unimi
cis pitt edu \( david j \) subject rumours 3do \? \? \? lines 13 x newsreader tin 1 1 pl3 dave optimla aimla com \( dave \) writes 3do still concept software sells determine success apparantly dont keep news 3do shown ces developers others private 300 software currently developing software would say lot concept
csv warwick ac uk \( ajay \) subject please recommend 3d graphics library organization computing services , university warwick , uk lines 44 distribution world reply csv warwick ac uk nntp posting host csv warwick ac uk article bcstec ca boeing com , rgc3679 bcstec ca boeing com \( robert g carpenter \) writes hi netters , i'm building cad package need 3d graphics library handle rudimentry tasks , hidden line removal , shading , animation , etc please offer recommendations \? 'll also need contact info \( name , address , email \) find thanks \( please post responses , case others need \) bob carpenter 've given sites excellent 3d objects sorts file formats 's host plaza aarnet edu au location graphics graphics mirrors directory drwxr xr x 512 apr 4 14 32 avalon chinalake navy mil host compute1 cc ncsu edu location mirrors wustl graphics graphics mirrors directory drwxr xr x 512 mar 14 09 15 avalon chinalake navy mil host wuarchive wustl edu location graphics graphics mirrors directory drwxr xr x 512 jan 3 06 29 avalon chinalake navy mil see ya ! ajay 8 \)
joerg sax sax de \( joerg \) subject various dxf format questions organization , dresden , germany lines 25 distribution world nntp posting host sax sax de summary list sites holding documentation dxf format keywords dxf , graphics formats archie told following sites holding documentation dxf host nic funet fi \( 128 214 6 100 \) last updated 15 11 7 apr 1993 location pub csc graphics format file dec 4 1991 dxf doc host rainbow cse edu \( 134 114 64 24 \) last updated 17 09 1 jun 1992 location graphics formats file rw r r mar 23 23 31 dxf doc host ftp ac jp \( 133 9 1 32 \) last updated 00 47 5 apr 1993 location pub data graphic file rw r r nov 18 1991 dxf doc z j org , ham joerg sax de anything go wrong joerg sax de , hrz tu de , ! joerg tcd dresden de
lcd umcc umcc umich edu \( leon dent \) subject mpeg x windows mono needed organization umcc , ann arbor , mi lines 20 nntp posting host umcc umcc umich edu sunsite unc edu pub multimedia utilities unix find mpeg play 2 0 tar z find mono works best mpeg play dither threshold though use mpeg play dither mono face , best viewing situation also someone made patch mpeg play gives two mono modes \( halftone \) jan canberra edu au \( jan \) patch found csc canberra edu au \( 137 92 1 1 \) pub motif 0 mono patch leon dent lcd umcc umich edu
abo fi \( pap \) subject compiled version vogl library pc \? keywords vogl organization abo akademi university lines 11 anybody compiled vogl graphics library ibm pc \? need call ms fortran n't ms c compile sources thanks help abo fi
sts mfltd co uk \( steve sherwood \( x5543 \) \) subject virtual reality x cheap ! reply sts mfltd co uk organization micro focus ltd , newbury , england lines 19 anyone got multiverse work \? built 486 svr4 , mips sun sparcstation seems many bugs simply nothing \( fixing bug variable defined twice two different modules one needed setting static else client core dumped \) steve extn 5543 , sts mfltd co uk , ! uunet ! mfocus ! sts micro focus like pariah , name , rm rf 26 west street living blaze obscurity , rum ruff splat newbury need courage survive day berkshire england \( \) bort \( r \) etry \( \) large hammer
ederveen athena research ptt nl \( ederveen \) subject micro world data bank ii \? nntp posting host athena research ptt nl reply n ederveen research ptt nl organization ptt research , netherlands lines 18 i'm looking database called micro world data bank ii , database digital map information containing 178 , latitude , longitude points said public domain anyone knows place get \( preferably ftp gopher mailserver etc otherwise snail mail \) please let know willing send file , drop line 'll using program called charles h anyone knows another detailed database used program \( preferably pd \) , would interested replies e mail please , directly , n't read group regularly 's interest 'll post summary , course ederveen \( fidonet 2 283 323 \) tel 31 70 n ederveen research ptt nl ederveen bitnet fax 31 70 c nl admd prmd ptt research ptt research ederveen wish warrior , every language speak lou reed
young u tokyo ac jp \( young hong \) subject looking dr bala r 's email address nntp posting host rabbit gw organization dept information science , univ tokyo , japan distribution comp graphics x bytes 660 lines 27 hi ! looking email address author generic solution polygon clipping , communication acm , july 1992 , vol 35 , 7 got information author follows mr bala r , 65 river road , hudson , n h email lockheed want get related detailed papers topic author failed send email address information appreciated thank much best regards h young lab dept information science faculty science university tokyo ku , 7 3 1 113 tokyo , japan email young u tokyo ac jp
michael maier anl gov \( michael maier \) subject round vs elliptical dot screens organization anl lines 15 using photoshop anyway get elliptical dot halftone screen rather round dot \? printer would prefer elliptical dot , i'm sure set i'm sending mac iici using photoshop 2 0 1 make help would greatly michael \( \) michael maier , computer artist , anl z glued email michael maier anl gov tv milk amnesia phone 708 252 michael maier
spl ivem ucsd edu \( steve lamont \) subject sgi sales practices \( crimson \( kubota announcement \? \) \) organization university calif , san diego microscopy imaging resource lines 49 nntp posting host ivem ucsd edu article scg hac com lee luke hac com \( c lee \) writes original posting complained \( 1 \) sgi coming newer \( better \) architectures upgrade path older ones , \( 2 \) dec 's complaining , intend suggest dec better sgi \( let tell lynx day , prepared large sedative \) comment regarding dec indicate might open vendors supported opengl , rather deal sgi annoyed fact led believe would able upgrade multiprocessor version crimson without assistance fork lift truck i'm also annoyed sold several personal irises previous site understanding architecture would around , rather flushed understand sgi responsible investors keep showing positive quarterly bottom line \( odd found pressured least two occasions get business books end quarter \) , i'm little tired getting process maybe 's lab buys , n't entitled peek covers big kids \( nasa , instance \) lab , suspect lot labs organizations , n't load money spend computers every year , ca n't buying new systems regular basis boxes buy last us pretty much entire grant period five years , case , beyond means need buy best piece equipment money , product built , paraphrase one previous poster 's words , 'to fill compete vendor i'm going looking box next five years every time look , i'm going think sgi could better spent money \( actually money , since 're supported almost entirely federal tax dollars \) 'll pardon go hiss corner somewhere think dark , libelous thoughts spl steve lamont , sciviguy \( 619 \) 534 7968 spl szechuan ucsd edu san diego microscopy imaging resource uc san diego la jolla , ca 92093 0608 car car , bumper strip seen 805
access digex com \( marks \) subject please recommend 3d graphics library mac organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 100 nntp posting host access digex net x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 robert g carpenter writes hi netters , i'm building cad package need 3d graphics library handle rudimentry tasks , hidden line removal , shading , animation , etc please offer recommendations \? 'll also need contact info \( name , address , email \) find thanks \( please post responses , case others need \) bob carpenter following extracted sumex aim stanford edu also mirrors think source applications may bearing project poke around source directory 've never used package , know anyone , price right \) hope helps abstracts files thu apr 1 03 11 39 pst 1993 directory info mac source binhex 3d grafsys 121 hqx date fri , 5 mar 93 14 13 07 0100 christian ove franz ethz ch questions mac archive umich edu subject 3d grafsys 1 21 incoming directory 3d grafsys short description follows programmers 3d grafsys vers 1 21 available version 1 21 mainly think c users version runs think c , promise ! docs contain chapter c programmers use grafsys problems , feel free contact change removed calls fpu version make run faster n't know , read programmers 3d grafsys n't always great game mind needed way drawing three dimensional scenes \? n't always want write program structure three dimensional molecules \? n't task writing 3d conversions routines keep actually \? well answer questions , package \? \? \? ' , read grafsys think pascal c library provides simple routines building , saving , loading \( resources \) , manipulating \( independent rotating around arbitrary , translating scaling \) three dimensional objects objects , simple single line drawings grafsys supports full 3d clipping , animation \( primitive \) hidden line hidden surface drawing simple commands within program grafsys also supports full eye control perspective parallel projections \( ca n't understand word , n't worry , showing know docs come try explain means later \) grafsys provides powerful interface supply drawing routines data use grafsys 3d transformations routines actual drawing \( note grafsys also provides drawing routines n't worry n't want \) grafsys 1 11 comes two versions one 881 020 processors version uses fixed point arithmetic runs mac versions 100 source grafsys comes extensive manual teaches fundamentals 3d graphics use package demand big enough convert grafsys object class library however , way implemented makes easier use lot people select grafsys free non commercial usage read documentation enclosed enjoy , christian franz
peter visser el wau nl \( peter van der \) subject fonts pov \? \? lines 30 organization wageningen agricultural university x newsreader ftpnuz \( dos \) v1 0 article wampyr cc uow edu au g9134255 wampyr cc uow edu au \( coronado emmanuel abad \) says seen several ray traced scenes \( mtv rayshade \? \? \) stroked fonts appearing objects image fonts chars color , depth even textures associated wondering , possible pov \? \? thanks , noel yes , programs convert font files \( eq borland fonts \) objects consisting spheres , cones etc 've used program \( forgot name place , look \) converted borland fonts three different raytracers vivid , pov polyray \( like \( faster use expressions etc \) program lot nice features interested give mail peter visser el wau nl department genetics \( \) agricultural university u wageningen , netherlands
geoffrey hansen mindlink bc ca \( geoffrey hansen \) subject vesa speedstar 24 organization mind link ! british columbia , canada lines 12 using command , need type vesa dos prompt included speedstar 24 used vesa mode autodesk animator pro geoffrey hansen mindlink bc ca feeling despair invariably emerge periods great technological cultural transition marshall mcluhan
ghost dsi unimi \( sergio \) subject hot new 3d software keywords imagine , 3d organization computer science dep milan university lines 26 n't imagine real 3d , old amiga user think take look also real 3d 2 0 amiga saw imagine 2 0 amiga long time friend 's home , 've seen 2 0 action bit movie 93 , italy \( italian computer graphics contest \) many professionals using 3d studio pc , silicon graphics imagine amiga impressed power programs sorry , 've lost posting full description features great program informations give look comp sys amiga graphics representative international told 2 weeks amiga pc ms windows , silicon indigo unix version development ciao , sergio sergio ghost sm dsi unimi via di , 4 milano phone 2
george ccmail larc nasa gov \( george brown \) subject pcx organization client specific systems , inc lines 41 nntp posting host larc nasa gov article 1993apr14 freenet carleton ca freenet carleton ca \( jason wiggle \) writes freenet carleton ca \( jason wiggle \) subject pcx date wed , 14 apr 1993 22 01 00 gmt hello help ! ! ! please student turbo c graphics programming problems finding algorithms code teach stuff 1 \) book code teach read write pcx , , gif files \? 2 \) access extra ram paradise video board paging higher vga modes ie 320x200x256 800x600x256 3 \) anybody got line good book help answer question \? thanks much ! send reply 's palm bitnet peace blessed stephen palm book somewhat recommend image processing c craig published wiley addresses reading writing pcx tiff files image acquisition , manipulation storage source code book source primarily written turbo c naturally conversion possibilities converted quick c naturally , code problems book typos , syntax , etc problems good learning experience someone studying c also companion disk source available order 50 00 overall , book bad acquired book
shearson com \( robert \) subject please recommend 3d graphics library f reply shearson com organization lehman brothers , inc lines 9 hardware plan run \? workstation pc \? cost level \? run time licensing needs \? bob robert applied derivatives technology lehman brothers shearson com
weber usc edu \( allan g weber \) subject need help mitsubishi image printer organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 26 distribution na nntp posting host usc edu group recently bought mitsubishi video printer could use help bought thing \( 1 \) parallel data input addition usual video signal inputs \( 2 \) claimed print 256 gray level images however , manual came describes format parallel data print 1 4 bit pixel images initial problems parallel interface thing running parallel port hewlett packard workstation print 1 4 bit pixel images fine called mitsubishi people asked 256 level claim said available used video signal inputs mentioned sales literature however say 6 bit pixel \( 64 level \) images parallel mode , n't information program , would call japan , etc frankly , find hard believe thing 8 bit pixel images video source , ca n't store 8 bits pixel memory 's like memory expensive anybody information getting 6 bit pixel \( even 8 bit pixel \) images thing , would greatly appreciate sending thanks allan weber signal image processing institute university southern california weber usc edu
epfl ch \( \) subject need graph display edit organization math dept , swiss institute technology lines 17 looking program capable displaying graph nodes links possibility edit interactively graph add one node , change one link etc actually , simple x11 program would ok need put boxes \( e nodes \) able manipulate mouse \( move , add delete boxes \) anyone know program available \? thanks help ! ! phone 41 21 swiss federal institute technology fax 41 21 math dept ch 1015 lausanne \( switzerland \) e mail epfl ch
sean mcmains mcmains unt edu subject rumours 3do \? \? \? x xxmessage id seanmac acs unt edu x xxdate thu , 15 apr 93 17 49 34 gmt organization university north texas x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d20 lines 23 article 1993apr15 144843 19549 rchland ibm com ricardo hernandez muchado , ricardo rchland vnet ibm com writes cd 's cpu n't help much either understand 68070 \( supposedly variation 68000 68010 \) running something like 7mhz speed , truly need sprites wow ! 68070 ! 'd interested get hands one , especially considering fact motorola yet released 68060 , supposedly next 680x0 lineup 8 ricardo , animation playback lawrence referring earlier post plain old quicktime 1 5 compact video codec 've seen digitized video \( apple 's early commercials , precise \) running centris 650 30fps nicely \( 16 bit color depth \) would expect using algorithm , risc processor able approach full screen full motion animation , though 've implied , processor taxed highly dynamic material sean mcmains check gopher phone 817 565 2039 university north texas new bands info server fax 817 565 p box seanmac acs unt edu e mail denton tx mcmains unt edu
subject xga 2 info \? sparc2 cstp umkc edu \( rainer \) distribution world organization university missouri kansas city nntp posting host sparc2 cstp umkc edu lines 13 hi , anyone info xga 2 chipset \? hw , truecolor , resolutions , boards xga 2 yet \? thanks rainer rainer sparc2 cstp umkc edu university kansas city , mo new mail clinton dc gov \( subject specified \)
ux1 cso uiuc edu \( \) subject tiff philosophical significance 42 organization university illinois urbana lines 23 cptully med unc edu \( christopher p , pathology , \) writes tight \? matter , , gripe problems \? also , important , volunteer help define critique spec hear hear ! ! ! finally , little numerology 42 24 backwards , tiff 24 bit image format really \? thought reason 42 really 24 , written 42 intel chips could get proper value \) pete help wars break eggs sides ! peter mueller \( \) person commits violation sins ux1 cso uiuc edu unintentionally regard mrcnext cso uiuc edu lord 's holy things , bring lord penalty , ram flock
mogal asd sgi com \( joshua mogal \) subject sgi sales practices \( crimson \( kubota announcement \? \) \) organization silicon graphics , inc lines 123 nntp posting host asd sgi com comment regarding dec indicate might open vendors supported opengl , rather deal sgi opengl graphics programming library great , portable interface development interactive 3d graphics applications , however , indicator performance , vary strongly machine machine vendor vendor sgi committed high performance interactive graphics systems software tools , opengl means port easily sgi platforms , guarantee performance would comparable annoyed fact led believe would able upgrade multiprocessor version crimson without assistance fork lift truck sales representative truly mislead , valid us carry local sgi sales management team feel free contact local branch manager understand repeat sales come satisfied customers , give shot i'm also annoyed sold several personal irises previous site understanding architecture would around , rather flushed one previous posts stated , personal iris introduced 1988 grew include 4d 20 , 4d 25 , 4d 30 4d 35 clock rates sped time rule thumb , sgi platforms live 4 5 years true motorola based 3000 series \( '85 '89 \) , pi \( '88 '93 \) , professional series \( early 4d 's '86 '90 \) , power series parallel systems \( '88 '93 \) individual cpu subsystems running particular clock rate usually live 2 years new graphics architectures high end \( gt , vgx , \) released every 18 months 2 years facts life look machines , become almost archaic four years , come new platform \( like indigo , onyx , challenge \) higher bus , faster cpus , faster graphics , larger disk capacities n't , become user perspective , buy machine meets current needs makes economic sense today ca n't wait buy , need guaranteed upgrade path machine , ask sales rep one writing 's feasible , able upgrade paths specific programs associated , performance protection program older r3000 based power series multiprocessing systems allowed purchasers systems obtain guaranteed upgrade price moving new onyx challenge based 64 bit multiprocessor systems understand sgi responsible investors keep showing positive quarterly bottom line \( odd found pressured least two occasions get business books end quarter \) , i'm little tired getting process 's happening , 's misunderstandings mis communication , sgi directly attempting annoy customer base maybe 's lab buys , n't entitled peek covers big kids \( nasa , instance \) lab , suspect lot labs organizations , n't load money spend computers every year , ca n't buying new systems regular basis sgi customers types , regardless , rarely give great deal notice introduce new system , like previous post stated , pre announced schedule slipped , would mess potential customers schedules \( counting availability new systems particular date \) would also look awfully bad investors financial analysts watch us carefully see meeting commitments boxes buy last us pretty much entire grant period five years , case , beyond means need buy best piece equipment money , product built , paraphrase one previous poster 's words , 'to fill compete vendor i'm going looking box next five years every time look , i'm going think sgi could better spent money \( actually money , since 're supported almost entirely federal tax dollars \) five years awfully long time computer years new processor technologies arriving every 1 2 years , making 5 year old computer least 2 probably 3 generations behind times competitive nature market demanding rate development , timing really 5 years purchases , accept limited viability whatever architecture buy vendor realities computer biz live , keeping customers happy important , n't give , know josh \) joshua mogal product manager advanced graphics division advanced graphics systems silicon graphics inc market manager 2011 north shoreline blvd virtual reality mountain view , ca 94039 interactive entertainment 9l 580 tel \( 415 \) 390 fax \( 415 \) 964 e mail mogal sgi com
subject rendering software multi processor computer trident datasys swri edu \( william carter \) organization southwest research institute lines 13 hello , searching rendering software developed specifically take advantage multi processor computer systems pointers software would greatly appreciated thanks billy carter , software engineering section southwest research institute swri edu
balboa eng uci edu \( lee van \) subject wanted map world type gifs nntp posting host balboa eng uci edu organization university california , irvine lines 11 hi , anyone direct map type gifs \? interesting would find gifs useful tia , lee van balboa eng uci edu , uucp ! com ! lee west sun com
fraser sfu ca \( daniel \) subject pov trouble bump mapping gif sphere summary trouble bump mapping gif povray keywords bump map organization simon fraser university , burnaby , b c , canada lines 44 hello , 've trying bump map gif onto sphere ca n't seem get work image mapping works , bump mapping 's simple file working , could kind soul tell whats wrong include colors inc include shapes inc include textures inc camera location 0 1 3 direction 0 0 1 5 0 1 0 right 1 33 0 0 look 0 1 2 object light source 2 4 3 color white object sphere 0 1 2 1 texture bump map 1 0 1 2 gif surf gif note surf gif plasma fractal fractint using landscape palette map thanks advance daniel daniel sfu ca minds finite , yet even circumstances , surrounded possibilities infinite , purpose human life grasp much alfred north whitehead
csc ti com \( raj \) subject point intersection n lines keywords robust statistics nntp posting host organization texas instruments lines 21 hi , anybody suggest robust algorithms code computing point intersection n , 2 lines plane data hence simple least squares technique seem provide results please respond e mail post summary newsgroups sufficient interest thanks , raj member technical staff image understanding branch texas instruments central research labs dallas , texas csc ti com
lusardi cs buffalo edu \( christopher lusardi \) subject program included 2 edge detection algorithms ! article acsu organization state university new york buffalo comp sci lines 142 nntp posting host cs buffalo edu program n't detect edges compass operators laplacian operator output 2 raw grey scale images edges output n't look like edges terms , correct errors \? improvements welcome \( 'll even accept corrected code \) \( input image digital gaussian 7 7 remove noise , get improvement laplacian \) 2 types edge detection include stdio h include math h define imagewidth 300 define imageheight 300 unsigned char input image imageheight imagewidth unsigned char angles wanted imageheight imagewidth unsigned char magnitude image imageheight imagewidth int laplace op1 3 3 0 , 1 , 0 , 1 , 4 , 1 , 0 , 1 , 0 int compass op1 3 3 1 , 1 , 1 , 0 , 0 , 0 , 1 , 1 , 1 int compass 3 3 1 , 1 , 0 , 1 , 0 , 1 , 0 , 1 , 1 int compass 3 3 1 , 0 , 1 , 1 , 0 , 1 , 1 , 0 , 1 int compass 3 3 0 , 1 , 1 , 1 , 0 , 1 , 1 , 1 , 0 int compass 3 3 1 , 1 , 1 , 0 , 0 , 0 , 1 , 1 , 1 int compass 3 3 1 , 1 , 0 , 1 , 0 , 1 , 0 , 1 , 1 int compass 3 3 1 , 0 , 1 , 1 , 0 , 1 , 1 , 0 , 1 int compass 3 3 0 , 1 , 1 , 1 , 0 , 1 , 1 , 1 , 0 void compass \( row , col \) int row , col int value int op rows , op cols int compass1 , compass2 , compass3 , compass4 int compass5 , compass6 , compass7 , compass8 compass1 compass2 compass3 compass4 0 compass5 compass6 compass7 compass8 0 \( op rows 1 op rows 2 op rows \) \( op cols 1 op cols 2 op cols \) \( \( \( row op rows \) 0 \) \( \( col op cols \) 0 \) \) compass1 \( \( int \) input image row op rows col op cols \) compass op1 op rows 1 op cols 1 compass2 \( \( int \) input image row op rows col op cols \) compass op rows 1 op cols 1 compass3 \( \( int \) input image row op rows col op cols \) compass op rows 1 op cols 1 compass4 \( \( int \) input image row op rows col op cols \) compass op rows 1 op cols 1 compass5 \( \( int \) input image row op rows col op cols \) compass op rows 1 op cols 1 compass6 \( \( int \) input image row op rows col op cols \) compass op rows 1 op cols 1 compass7 \( \( int \) input image row op rows col op cols \) compass op rows 1 op cols 1 compass8 \( \( int \) input image row op rows col op cols \) compass op rows 1 op cols 1 \( compass1 compass2 \) value compass2 else value compass1 \( value compass3 \) value compass3 \( value compass4 \) value compass4 \( value compass5 \) value compass5 \( value compass6 \) value compass6 \( value compass7 \) value compass7 \( value compass8 \) value compass8 magnitude image row col \( char \) value void laplace1 \( row , col \) int row , col int op rows , op cols magnitude image row col 0 \( op rows 1 op rows 2 op rows \) \( op cols 1 op cols 2 op cols \) \( \( \( row op rows \) 0 \) \( \( col op cols \) 0 \) \) magnitude image row col \( char \) \( \( int \) magnitude image row col \( \( int \) input image row op rows col op cols laplace op1 op rows 1 op cols 1 \) \) main \( \) file original image fp file laplace1 mag fp , mag fp , mag fp file compass mag fp int row , col , algo count original image fp fopen \( input image , rb \) laplace1 mag fp fopen \( laplace1 magnitude , wb \) compass mag fp fopen \( compass magnitude , wb \) \( \( unsigned char \) input image , sizeof \( unsigned char \) , imageheight imagewidth , original image fp \) \( algo count 0 algo count 2 algo count \) \( row 0 row imageheight row \) \( col 0 col imagewidth col \) \( ! algo count \) laplace1 \( row , col \) else compass \( row , col \) \( ! algo count \) \( magnitude image , sizeof \( char \) , imageheight imagewidth , laplace1 mag fp \) else \( magnitude image , sizeof \( char \) , imageheight imagewidth , compass mag fp \) , lot au music ftp sounds sdsu edu , cat file au dev audio \( ub library catalog telnet bison acsu buffalo edu \( doubt ask xarchie , , \)
robert cpuserver acsc com \( robert grant \) subject virtual reality x cheap ! organization , los angeles lines 32 distribution world reply robert cpuserver acsc com \( robert grant \) nntp posting host cpuserver acsc com hi steve , author multiverse , feel better respond questioning whether anyone managed compile software quick answer yes ! long answer yes problems platforms unix 's , know ! far many bugs go , would probably useful everyone \( including \) bit explicit ! \) platforms succesfully compiled run rs6000 , dec ultrix sun solaris possible main problem n't access platforms rs6000 , portability problems way hear people letting know giving clue fix far software anything , really think would bother releasing , case \? perhaps n't read docs supplied world made clients , 're , 're going see anything ! world quite lot n't see anything , definitely problem ! one final word 're interested , n't bother interested , please remember i'm asking money ! try little patience constructive criticism , maybe get results \? \? robert robert acsc com
organization city university new york cunyvm bitnet subject hot new 3d software lines 16 n't think speed determined , since never run intel chips amiga 's motorola chips , one fastest true n't think impulse would port take speed consideration terms features , learning curve stated 3ds also true imagine , lots 'll admit 3 years use amiga , learning curve steep due manual realy bad however , lot market support product , including regular articles many magazines avid great book steve worley called understanding imagine 2 0 book , must ! think important consideration price 3000 3ds \( including tool packages \) 500 imagine complete
spencer med umich edu \( spencer w thomas \) subject cylinder ray organization university michigan lines 17 nntp posting host med umich edu reply krusty eecs umich edu 's message thu , 15 apr 1993 04 04 23 gmt sketch rotate cylinder axis z axis intersect x projection line projected cylinder \( similar , easier , sphere intersection \) result intersection , one intersection , two intersections , along line t0 t1 look z , compute intersections line top bottom planes cylinder gives interval intersection bit line t0 , t1 intersect , details left exercise reader spencer w thomas info tech networking , , genome univ michigan , ann arbor , mi 48109 spencer w thomas med umich edu 313 764 , fax 313 764
bolson carson u washington edu \( edward bolson \) subject sphere 4 points \? organization university washington , seattle lines 18 distribution world nntp posting host carson u washington edu boy , embarassing trivial faq given 4 points \( non coplanar \) , one find sphere , , center radius , exactly fitting points \? know circle \( 3 points \) , immediately see straightforward way 3 checked geometry books , graphics gems , farin , still loss \? please mercy provide solution \? thanks , ed ed bolson university washington cardiovascular research \( 206 \) 543 bolson u washington edu \( preferred \) bolson max bitnet bolson milton u washington edu \( must \)
subject announce ivan sutherland speak harvard husc11 harvard edu \( eugene kim \) distribution harvard organization harvard university science center nntp posting host husc11 harvard edu lines 21 harvard computer society pleased announce third lecture spring ivan sutherland , father computer graphics , speaking harvard university tuesday , april 20 , 1993 , 4 00 pm aiken computations building , room 101 title talk logical effort conflict control information cookies tea served 3 30 pm aiken lobby admissions free , welcome aiken located north science center near law school information , send e mail husc harvard edu lecture videotaped , tape made available thanks eugene kim '96 give place stand , internet husc harvard edu move earth archimedes
ednobles sacam oren ortn edu \( edward nobles \) subject windows imagine \? \? ! ! organization oak ridge national laboratory x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 10 anyone ordered new pc version imagine actually recieved yet \? i'm ready order reading posts people still awaiting delivery making little paranoid anyone actually held piece software hands \? later , jim nobles
morley camosun bc ca \( mark morley \) subject vga mode 13h routines available nntp posting host camosun bc ca organization camosun college , victoria b c , canada x newsreader tin 1 1 pl4 lines 31 hi , 've made vga mode 13h graphics library available via ftp originally wrote routines kind exercise , perhaps someone find useful certainly useable , missing higher level functionality 're intended intro mode 13h programming , starting point library assumes 386 processor , trivial modify 286 enough people ask , 'll make mods post different version routines written assembly \( \) callable c fairly simple , 've found fast \( purposes , anyway \) routines included enter exit mode 13h , define virtual screen , put get pixels , put pixmap \( rectangular image transparent spots \) , put sprite \( image see thru areas \) , copy areas virtual screen video memory , etc 've also included simple c routine draw line , well c routine load 256 color gif image buffer also wrote \( tm \) demo program bounces bunch sprites around behind three windows whole package available spang camosun bc ca pub dos zip pkzip 2 completely public domain , far i'm concerned whatever like however , 'd nice get credit 's due , maybe e mail telling like \( n't like n't bother \) mark morley camosun bc ca
rgc3679 bcstec ca boeing com \( robert g carpenter \) subject please recommend 3d graphics library mac organization boeing lines 9 searched u mich archives fairly thoroughly 3d graphics packages , always thought mirror sumex aim stanford edu wrong 'll look grafsys sound interesting ! thanks bobc
rgc3679 bcstec ca boeing com \( robert g carpenter \) subject please recommend 3d graphics library f organization boeing lines 13 sorry mentioning platform original post mac programmer , decided post comp graphics 'd like 3d software run primarily mac either c , object pascal \( think mpw \) , 'll port windows later , package runs mac windows version would ideal i'm looking package low upfront costs , reasonable licensing costs course \) bobc
steve hcrlgw \( steven collins \) subject sphere 4 points \? organization central research lab hitachi , ltd lines 27 nntp posting host hcrlgw article shelley u washington edu bolson carson u washington edu \( edward bolson \) writes boy , embarassing trivial faq given 4 points \( non coplanar \) , one find sphere , , center radius , exactly fitting points \? know circle \( 3 points \) , immediately see straightforward way 3 checked geometry books , graphics gems , farin , still loss \? please mercy provide solution \? would n't require hyper sphere 3 space , 4 points specifies sphere far see unless prove point exists 3 space distant 4 points , may necessarily happen correct i'm wrong \( quite possibly ! \) steve steven collins email steve crl hitachi co jp visiting computer graphics researcher phone \( \) 23 1111 hitachi central research lab tokyo fax \( \) 27
netcom com \( steve worley \) subject sphere 4 points \? organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 38 bolson carson u washington edu \( edward bolson \) writes boy , embarassing trivial faq given 4 points \( non coplanar \) , one find sphere , , center radius , exactly fitting points \? know circle \( 3 points \) , immediately see straightforward way 3 checked geometry books , graphics gems , farin , still loss \? please mercy provide solution \? 's bad question n't refs list algorithm either thinking bit , n't hard 1 \) take three points find plane define well circle lie \( say algorithm already \) 2 \) find center circle line passing center perpendicular plane three points passes center sphere 3 \) repeat unused point two original points gives two different lines pass sphere 's origin center sphere 4 \) radius easy compute , 's distance center original points 'll leave math , workable algorithm \) alternate method would take pairs points plane formed perpendicular bisector line segment pair also contains center sphere three pairs form three planes , intersecting point might easier implement steve netcom com
hurh fnal fnal gov \( patrick hurh \) subject rayshade dxf , rib , etc \( \) \? organization fnal lines 30 distribution world nntp posting host fnal gov i'm mac user wants use rayshade models 've built using \( rayshade \) stratavision 3d since stratavision import many different model files thought would n't able find simple translator work mac ideas \? stratavision 3d able import dxf super 3d swivel 3d professional box rib also , anyone knows translator available stratavision 3d \( esp rayshade ! \) please e mail ! btw , i'm going send mail rayshade mailing list tomorrow \( misplaced address \) since users rayshade seem operate macs , i'm getting hopes thanks advance , patrick hurh fnal fnal gov
falcon depaul edu \( daniel c \) subject siggraph 1987 course notes nntp posting host falcon depaul edu organization depaul university , chicago distribution usa lines 7 looking copy following siggraph publication gomez , j e comments event driven , siggraph course notes , 10 , 1987 anyone knows location obtain copy notes , would appreciate could let know thanks falcon depaul edu
bbs mirage tsoft net \( jerry lee \) subject cobra 2 0 1 b 1 video card help ! ! ! ! organization tsoft bbs public access unix , 1 415 969 8238 lines 22 anyone net land information cobra 2 20 card \? sticker end card reads model cobra 1 b 1 bios cobra v2 20 hav n't able find anything anyone ! information get hold company produces card know drivers , please let know ! far tell , 's cga card taking 2 16 bit isa slots enable test patterns , displays much 4 cga colors least 16 count thanks ! internet eis calstate edu bbs mirage gilligan tsoft net bbs mirage tsoft sf bay org mirage com uucp apple com ! tsoft ! bbs mirage ` ' computer video imaging major
lars jorgensen p7 syntax bbs bad se \( lars jorgensen \) subject processes 3d studio reply lars jorgensen p7 syntax bbs bad se \( lars jorgensen \) distribution world organization nr 5 p b od comment internet gateway lines 13 hi , anybody source code processes comes 3d studio , som kind doc writing processes self lars author lars jorgensen p7 syntax bbs bad se , syntax bbs , denmark golded 2 41
valo cs \( valo roman \) subject text recognition software availability organization technical university bratislava , slovakia lines 23 nntp posting host eunet sk valo cs \( valo roman \) article mentor cc purdue edu , ab nova cc purdue edu \( allen b \) writes one time free ocr software \? ask question periodically n't found anything last time n't find anything , i'm going write post email leads suggestions , else sit back wait \) ab i'm sure free shareware , try look army mil , directory pd1 msdos file zip file lst zip b optical character recognition scanners hope helps roman valo valo cs technical university bratislava slovakia
johne iti gov sg \( dr john \) subject sphere 4 points \? organization information technology institute , national computer board , singapore lines 37 article shelley u washington edu bolson carson u washington edu \( edward bolson \) writes boy , embarassing trivial faq center radius , exactly fitting points \? know circle \( 3 points \) , immediately see straightforward way 3 checked geometry books , graphics gems , farin , still loss \? please mercy provide solution \? top head , might try given p 1 , p 2 , p 3 , p 4 find p c \( center sphere determined p 1 , , p 4 \) , dist \( p c , p \) \( radius \) p c distance four points , dist \( p c , p 1 \) dist \( p c , p 2 \) dist \( p c , p 3 \) dist \( p c , p 4 \) course , square whole thing get rid square roots \( p c , p 1 \) \( p c , p 2 \) \( p c , p 3 \) \( p c , p 4 \) plug variables distance formula , simplify , x 2 c , 2 c , z 2 c terms cancel , leaving three linearly independent equations three unknowns \( x c , c , z c \) solve using favorite method \) best , john \) dr john lord god subtle , information technology institute malicious national computer board , singapore email johne iti gov sg albert einstein
nestvx enet dec com \( burkhard neidecker lutz \) subject rumours 3do \? \? \? organization cec karlsruhe lines 17 nntp posting host nestvx article 1993apr15 164940 11632 mercury unt edu sean mcmains mcmains unt edu writes wow ! 68070 ! 'd interested get hands one , especially considering fact motorola yet released 68060 , supposedly next 680x0 lineup 8 68070 variation 68010 done years ago european partners motorola integrated controllers half mmu , otherwise 's 68010 think 8086 80186 burkhard neidecker lutz distributed multimedia group , cec karlsruhe portfolio manager software motion pictures ii project multimedia base technology digital equipment corporation neidecker nestvx enet dec com
co rmit oz au \( mark gregory \) subject avi file format \? summary avi file format \? keywords avi file format \? organization royal melbourne institute technology lines 18 nntp posting host cse rmit edu au hi , would someone please email new avi file format i'm sure many people would like know exactly thank mark gregory lecturer gregory rmit edu au ph \( 03 \) fax \( 03 \) royal melbourne institute technology , department communication electronic engineering , p box , melbourne , victoria , 3001 australia mark gregory lecturer gregory rmit edu au ph \( 03 \) fax \( 03 \) royal melbourne institute technology , department communication electronic engineering , p box , melbourne , victoria , 3001 australia
rob rjck uucp \( robert j c kyanko \) subject vga 640x400 graphics mode distribution world organization neptune software inc lines 26 student tc umn edu writes article bmp news2 cis umn edu vesa bios 's support mode \( \) vga able support \( 640x480 256 colors \) since requires 256 , 000 bytes 8514 vesa tsr supports 's vesa mode card support due 8514 restrictions \( wd paradise \) responsible anything say i'm opinion robert j c kyanko \( rob rjck uucp \) ahh possibly punched wrong numbers calculator 256 color modes take byte per pixel 640 time 480 307 , 200 300k exact takes 250k n't think bios mode would n't bet vga cards either vga card 512k bet 640x400 640x480 definition svga , though high svga yes , punch wrong numbers \( working many late \) intended stating 640x400 256 , 000 bytes 's bios , vesa tsr responsible anything say i'm opinion robert j c kyanko \( rob rjck uucp \)
renew blade stack urc tue nl \( rene walter \) subject cview answers organization stack , eindhoven university technology , netherlands lines 66 nntp posting host blade stack urc tue nl summary cview problems explained keywords stupid programming x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 kind soul mailed reply bugs cview since n't position post , asked post , leave name comes cview quite number bugs one mention perhaps annoying , dangerous far determine , temp files cview creates cview gives user control places temp files places current directory problem mention occurs \( far tell \) runs disk space temp files seems cview n't check properly situation cview decodes jpeg , seems write temp file pixel data 24 bit colour information , 8 bit displays , dithering , writing another file 8 bit colour information writing second file , also writes data colour card last chunk 8 bit data , data 8 bit file screen \( last operation fit screen feature , even feature enabled \) result process following 1 \) runs disk space writing first 24 bit file , ever see much data room , last bit data simply repeated cview never realizes disk filled disk writes reads n't performed 2 \) enough room 24 bit data , runs room 8 bit data , see almost picture dithering writes screen card however , finishes dithering data 8 bit file screen \( whatever reason \) one gets repetition last chunk data room disk guess , probably fairly accurate least general idea track think , although probably made errors details file etc way around course clear sufficient disk space temp files large jpeg 's \( bigger \) large \( 3 meg 1 meg \) largest needed excess 6 meg free disk space cview much serious bug trying display file floppy , change floppies cview temp file open floppy , cview certain circumstances write directory \( fat table \? ca n't remember \) removed floppy onto newly inserted floppy , thus new floppy serious , possibly way careful ! incredibly poor programming program hand , choosing files open files menu , cview insists disk reads every time one moves hi lighter square incredibly annoying could gets directory info really , much effort take sort directory listing \? much thanks originator article rene walter renew stack urc tue nl tears sorrow , hope tomorrow , world ever get better , ca n't live together n't wanna live strife , wanna live life deserve future good girls future
camter28 astro ocis temple edu \( carter ames \) subject alt raytrace \( potential group \) organization temple university lines 7 nntp posting host astro ocis temple edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 yes , please create group alt raytrace soon ! ! i'm hooked pov geez like n't anything better oh ! ! dave letterman
g coulter daresbury ac uk \( g coulter \) subject shadow optical raytracing package \? reply g coulter daresbury ac uk organization serc daresbury laboratory , uk lines 17 nntp posting host dl ac uk hi everyone looking software called shadow far know simple raytracer used visualization synchrotron beam lines old version program , unfortunately n't documentation anyone knows get docs , maybe newer version program even another program sort thing would love hear ps think shadow written f \? anyone ideas \? thanks gary serc daresbury lab
erich fi gs com \( erich \) subject character recognition nntp posting host raider reply gs com organization goldman , sachs co x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 7 program available \( free otherwise \) taking tiff gif bitmapped file turning \( parts \) ascii characters \? dos , os 2 platform independent programs possible thanks
rws2v uvacs cs virginia edu \( richard stoakley \) subject need good concave convex polygon algorithm organization university virginia computer science department lines 6 need good concave convex polygon conversion routine 've tried couple without much luck please e mail responses post summary replies thank richard stoakley rws2v uvacs cs virginia edu
greg cs uct ac za \( gregory torrance \) subject automatic layout state diagrams organization computer science department , university cape town lines 18 hi , i'm hoping someone able help computer science project group computer science honours , project simulator finite state basically , program must draw diagram textual grammar , showing circles states , labeled arc 's problem working best way layout states , draw arc 's arc 's possible cross anyone suggestions algorithms bug free ready compile c code \) might help us , would much appreciated thanks advance , gregory
uts mcc ac uk \( simon marshall \) subject compensate photographic viewpoint distortion \? reply marshall dcs hull ac uk organization manchester computing centre , manchester , england lines 42 hi problem , i'm certain i'm solving correct way wondering anyone shed light , point right place look x ray imaging camera metallic tube cylindrical hole passing right angle tube 's axis image x ray source screen metallic tube know source screen centre distance , radius tube , radius hole calculations based image hole screen however , calculations mathematically highly complex , must assume object 's hole projects image \( resembling ellipse tube parallel screen \) centre screen however , unlikely object placed conveniently firstly , must transform major minor axis ellipse cannot know angle tube screen assume parallel transformation \? transformation \? secondly , distortion image due screen planar \( source screen distance increases move away centre screen \) compensate ellipse 's axis image distortion \? , please anyone give us pointers \? transform image appears would centre screen , deal distortion due shape screen \? 'd appreciate help , either posted emailed thanks advance , simon simon marshall , dept computer science , university hull , hull , uk football n't life death 's important bill email marshall cs hull ac uk phone 44 482 fax
bob black ox ac uk \( bob douglas \) subject sphere 4 points \? organization oxford university computing service , 13 rd , oxford , u lines 94 originator bob black article crl hitachi co jp steve hcrlgw \( steven collins \) writes article shelley u washington edu bolson carson u washington edu \( edward bolson \) writes boy , embarassing trivial faq given 4 points \( non coplanar \) , one find sphere , , center radius , exactly fitting points \? know circle \( 3 points \) , immediately see straightforward way 3 checked geometry books , graphics gems , farin , still loss \? please mercy provide solution \? would n't require hyper sphere 3 space , 4 points specifies sphere far see unless prove point exists 3 space distant 4 points , may necessarily happen correct i'm wrong \( quite possibly ! \) steve sorry ! ! \) call four points , b , c three must non \( otherwise three could lie surface sphere \) four must \( otherwise either cannot lie sphere define infinity \) , b c define circle perpendicular ab , bc ca meet point \( p , say \) centre circle circle must lie surface desired sphere consider normal plane abc passing p points normal , b c circle \( fact diameter desired sphere \) take plane containing normal \( lies normal plane containing normal \) plane right angles abc one let e point \( normally two \) circumference abc circle lies plane need point q normal eq dq intersection perpendicular bisector ed normal point \( exists since plane abc , ed right angles normal \) algorithm sphere well defined \? \( 1 \) check b \( failure \) \( 2 \) find line ab check c lie \( failure \) \( 3 \) find plane abc check lie \( failure \) yes find centre \( 1 \) find perpendicular ab ac \( 2 \) find point intersection \( p \) \( 3 \) find normal plane abc passing p \( line n \) \( 4 \) find plane containing n find point e abc circle plane \( lies n , take e \) \( 4 \) find perpendicular bisector ed \( line l \) \( 5 \) find point intersection n l \( q \) q centre desired sphere pictures \( 1 \) plane abc p b c \( 2 \) right angles abc , plane containing n e line n p q numerically ed ep q close p \( relative radius abc circle \) subject error 's best choose least ad , bd cd larger choice bob douglas computing services , university oxford internet bob oxford ac uk address 13 road , oxford , uk telephone 44 865
hugo hydra unm edu \( cummings \) subject polygon orientation dxf \? organization university new mexico , albuquerque lines 21 nntp posting host hydra unm edu hi i'm writing program convert dxf files database format used 3d graphics program 've written program stores points polygon ccw order 've used 3d concepts little seems points stored order drawn dxf format way indicating order points stored , cw ccw \? easy enough convert , n't know way stored , dont know direction polygon visible dxf n't handle , anyone recommend workaround \? best think create two polygons one dxf file , one stored cw ccw doubles number polygons decreases speed thanks advance help , hugo hydra unm edu
mcc ac uk \( sue cunningham \) subject fractals \? good \? organization manchester computing centre lines 5 using iterated systems compression board compress pathology images getting ratios 40 1 70 1 without much loss quality taking 4 mins per image compress , 25mhz 486 decompression almost real time 386 software alone
tiang midway ecn uoknor edu \( tiang \) subject book found graphics nntp posting host midway ecn uoknor edu organization engineering computer network , university oklahoma , norman , ok , usa lines 35 rpi edu \( locks \) writes hello , happened spot excellent book bookstore 4 days ago , though ! ! ! ! ! ! c assembly teaches assembly goes along 're like assembler experience , n't worry almost everything wanted know working code rod bought copy ca n't disagree good book unfortunately looking graphics feature described book 640x480x16 320x200x256 mode easy accomodate pixel descriptor \( color attributes \) modes , 640x480x256 \( interested \) n't finish book author n't talk much mode \( svga modes \) anyone know good book dealing fast svga graphics \( scrolling , , good stuff \) please send mail programming guide svga card also welcome thanks advance tiang foo tiang uokmax ecn uoknor edu tiang foo tiang uokmax ecn uoknor edu
pest uucp \( wolfgang pest \) subject speedstar 24 program truecolor mode \? distribution world organization gmbh , germany lines 17 hello , purchased new 486 graphics card installed obviously speedstar 24 compatible name vga 4000 truecolor accompanied drivers utilities , least one mode , well drivers lotus , windows , etc one drivers told provide truecolor mode , namely windows 3 1 driver nowhere else , except ad , pointer truecolor mode articles group speedstar 24 facts made believe card compatible one anybody know mode adjusted \? write driver allows 16 7 millions colors resolution 640 x 480 45 hz interlaced \? greetings , wolfgang
sab gnv ifas ufl edu subject info needed 2d contour plotting lines 16 hi everyone 's spend money goes away time u florida need find pc based software contour plotting irregular boundaries , e , 2 profile soil system pond 've given surfer pond trial run interpolates contours pond creates artifacts borders soil anyone knows product , appreciate hearing enough response , 'll post summary thanks \( back lurking \) steve bloom , soil water science , u fl \( sab gnv ifas ufl edu \)
tiang midway ecn uoknor edu \( tiang \) subject vesa standard vga svga programming \? \? \? nntp posting host midway ecn uoknor edu organization engineering computer network , university oklahoma , norman , ok , usa keywords vga lines 34 hi , question graphics programming vga svga 1 vesa standard works \? documentation vesa standard \? 2 higher resolution 320x200x256 640x480x16 vga mode , video memory longer sufficient hold info , trick fast image manipulation \? heard memory mapping video memory bank switching know nothing implemented advice , anyone \? 3 interest 640x480x256 mode mode called svga mode \? technique fast image scrolling mode \? deal different svga cards \? guidance books sources questions would greatly appreciated please send mail thanks advance ! tiang foo tiang uokmax ecn uoknor edu tiang foo tiang uokmax ecn uoknor edu
organization stanford linear accelerator center slacvm slac stanford edu subject sphere 4 points \? distribution world lines 21 bolson carson u washington edu \( edward bolson \) given 4 points \( non coplanar \) , one find sphere , , radius , exactly fitting points \? equation sphere 4 points \( x1 , y1 , z1 \) , , \( x4 , y4 , z4 \) x 2 2 z 2 x1 2 y1 2 z1 2 x4 2 y4 2 z4 2 x x1 x4 y1 y4 0 z z1 z4 1 1 1 5 5 expanded first column get equation form \( x 2 2 z 2 \) bx cy dz e 0 need center radius , divide \( cannot zero 4 given points form non degenerate \) complete square x , , z obtain \( x xc \) 2 \( yc \) 2 \( z zc \) 2 r 2 slacvm slac stanford edu \( bob beach \)
access digex com \( john cormack \) subject vesa speedstar 24 organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 8 nntp posting host access digex net summary speedstar 24x keywords vesa driver speedstar 24x need vesa driver diamond speedstar 24x works 've tried several none work hicolor modes john cormack access digex com
orourke sophia smith edu \( joseph o'rourke \) subject delaunay triangulation organization smith college , northampton , , us lines 22 article caspian usc edu zyeh caspian usc edu \( zhenghao yeh \) writes anybody know delaunay triangulation \? reference \? useful creating 3 objects \? yes , 's advantage \? vast literature delaunay , literally hundreds papers program even provided every copy mathematica nowadays might look interested using creating 3d objects article , author j , title geometric structures three dimensional shape representation , journal acm transactions graphics , month october , year 1984 , volume 3 , number 4 , pages 266 286
prlhp1 prl philips co uk \( j phillips \) subject rumours 3do \? \? \? reply prlhp1 uucp \( j phillips \) organization philips research laboratories , , uk lines 7 68070 exist 's number licensed philips make variant chip includes extra ports , i2c bus making microcontroller like confusion numbering \( ! \) , philips products range 68 \? \? \? core given numbers like pcf something
saz hook corp mot com \( scott zabolotzky \) subject gif bmp organization motorola , inc distribution usa nntp posting host 129 188 122 160 lines 11 i'm sure correct place ask question , please forgive point right direction anybody know program converts gif files bmp files , ftp \? help would greatly appreciated please respond via e mail read group often thanks scott
nl \( wessels \) subject point within polygon organization lines 71 article 1993apr14 bull co uk scrowe hemel bull co uk writes looking algorithm determine given point bound polygon anyone code reference book containing information subject \? regards simon function wessels datum 11 01 1993 de p op de rand van het p \( p , p \) , v , w index aantal , n , n aantal 0 n \( p \) \( p , n , \) \( n 1 n n n \) \( p , n , v \) \( x p x v x p x x p x v x p x \) w x p x \( , v , w \) \( w x p x w p \) return \( \) else \( w p \) aantal \( v , \) \( aantal 2 0 \) return \( \) else return \( \) wessels 14 zt netherlands 31 10 nl
jsc nasa gov \( doug egan \) subject graphics packages available aix \? organization lines 20 1993apr8 res utc com mark res utc com \( mark \) writes lpr carel fi , ari \( ari lpr carel fi \) wrote anybody know good 2d graphics packages available ibm rs 6000 aix \? i'm looking something like dec 's gks hewlett starbase , reasonably good support different output devices like plotters , terminals , x etc try graphigs ibm excellent package ! \) doug doug egan 's got lockheed engineering sciences co 's give houston , tx tesla email egan blkbox com
schultz schultz kgn ibm com \( karl schultz \) subject vesa standard vga svga programming \? \? \? reply schultz vnet ibm com organization ibm aws graphics systems keywords vga lines 45 1 vesa standard works \? documentation vesa standard \? vesa standard requested vesa vesa 2150 north first street , suite 440 san jose , ca 95131 ask vesa super vga programming vesa also defines local bus standards vesa standard addresses ways application find info capabilities specific super vga implementation control video mode selection video memory access still set pixels 2 higher resolution 320x200x256 640x480x16 vga mode , video memory longer sufficient hold info , trick fast image manipulation \? heard memory mapping video memory bank switching know nothing implemented advice , anyone \? vesa defines window used access video memory window anchored spot want write , write far window takes \( usually 64k \) windows , ca n't anchor anywhere also , implementations allow two windows 3 interest 640x480x256 mode mode called svga mode \? technique fast image scrolling mode \? deal different svga cards \? vesa mode set display start function might useful scrolling guidance books sources questions would greatly appreciated please send mail best bet write vesa info also announcements group vesa software karl schultz schultz vnet ibm com statements opinions necessarily ibm
tsa cellar org \( silent assassin \) subject please recommend 3d graphics library mac organization cellar bbs public access system lines 22 rgc3679 bcstec ca boeing com \( robert g carpenter \) writes hi netters , i'm building cad package need 3d graphics library handle rudimentry tasks , hidden line removal , shading , animation , etc please offer recommendations \? 's really hard books explain everything , basic 3d functions , translation , rotation , shading , hidden line removal pretty easy wrote program weeks help book , would happy give source also , quickdraw lot 3d functions built , think pascal access , would expect think c could well find use quickdraw graphics library , would excellent choice , since lot stuff , built mac , fast libertarian , atheist , semi anarchal techno rat define tsa cellar org
tsa cellar org \( silent assassin \) subject questions plane eqn method hidden surface removal organization cellar bbs public access system lines 18 main advantages method \? seen described , seems little bit long developed method , requires points counter clockwise order , returns whether looking back front , similar plane eqn method uses calculations however , basically several comparisons disadvantage see must done transformation view coordinates coordinates display screen , means little calculation beforehand method basically figures whether points appear screen clockwise counterclockwise looking back something , points occur opposite direction front , merely figuring way points go , tell whether looking back front 2d polygon anyone heard method \? simple , doubt first think libertarian , atheist , semi anarchal techno rat define tsa cellar org
cliff watson ibm com \( cliff \) subject reprints disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host cliff watson ibm com organization lines 17 reprints left chapters book visions future include reprints 3 chapters probably interest readers forum , including 1 current techniques development computer art , franz szabo 2 forging career sculptor career computer programmer , stewart 3 fractals genetics future h joel jeffrey 'd happy send free reprints researchers scholarly purposes , reprints run send name address thanks , cliff cliff watson ibm com
haston utkvx utk edu \( haston , donald wayne \) subject church related graphics news software vax vms vnews 1 41 keywords christian graphics organization university tennessee computing center lines 13 looking good quality graphics files suitable use church related presentations prefer vector , anything would helpful know bulletin boards collections nature , commercial products , please inform email haston utkvx utk edu wayne haston
lau rose brandeis edu \( frankie k lau \) subject pc fastest line circle drawing routines help ! organization brandeis university lines 41 hi , short looking fast assembly code line circle drawing svga graphics complete thinking simple fast molecular graphics program write pc clones \( ball stick type \) reasons programs 've seen far slow purpose platform 386 486 class machine 800x600 16 16 vga graphics \( speed important , 16 color non rendering purpose enough may stay 800x600 speed reason \) \( hope code would generic enough different svga cards card based trident 8900c , vesa \? \) i'm looking \? 1 \) fast , fast routines draw lines circles simple shapes mentioned svga resolutions presumably assembly yes , fast please 2 \) related codes help rotating zooming animating drawings screen drawings beginning , would lines , circles mainly , think text , else later \( know , way molecular graphics rotates , molecule \) 2 \) codes \( preferentially c \) help project final remarks non profit expected become share , free ware help appreciated thanks frankie lau tammy harvard edu ps pls also email , may miss reply post
ricardo rchland vnet ibm com \( ricardo hernandez muchado \) subject rumours 3do \? \? \? disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host rchland ibm com organization ibm rochester lines 74 article 1993apr15 164940 11632 mercury unt edu , sean mcmains mcmains unt edu writes article 1993apr15 144843 19549 rchland ibm com ricardo hernandez muchado , ricardo rchland vnet ibm com writes cd 's cpu n't help much either understand 68070 \( supposedly variation 68000 68010 \) running something like 7mhz speed , truly need sprites wow ! 68070 ! 'd interested get hands one , especially considering fact motorola yet released 68060 , supposedly next 680x0 lineup 8 sean , 68070 exists ! \) ricardo , animation playback lawrence referring earlier post plain old quicktime 1 5 compact video codec 've seen digitized video \( apple 's early commercials , precise \) running centris 650 30fps nicely \( 16 bit color depth \) would expect using algorithm , risc processor able approach full screen full motion animation , though 've implied , processor taxed highly dynamic material sean mcmains check gopher phone 817 565 2039 university north texas new bands info server fax 817 565 p box seanmac acs unt edu e mail denton tx mcmains unt edu sean , n't want get 'mini war' going say , little bit skeptic performance claiming centris , 'll see \( please , flames , reserve c \) \) chicago last consumer electronics show , apple booth walked , showing real time video capture using \( supermac \? \) card digitize make right spot quicktime movies think quicktime using old one \( 1 5 \) digitized guy talking something played back quite nicely real time guy expanded window \( resized \) \( 320 think \) frame rate decreased enough notice n't 30fps \( 30fps \) anymore dropped like 15 fps increased bit , dropped 10 12 fps asked mac using using quadra \( n't know model , 900 \? \) , telling guys quicktime could play back speed even lcii well , spoiled claim say , since 68040 quadra mac little bit trouble n't even hardisk ! memory ! could saw either newer version quicktime , hardware assisted centris , another software product running animation \( like supposedly macromind 's accelerator \? \) \? n't misunderstand , want clarify sake posting computer , claim 320x200 \( tad \) done 256 , 000 colors computer \( hardisk \) 30fps agree , consider mpeg stuff , think multimedia consumer low priced box lot market think 3do would make , longer cd new owner 320 1280 x , 200 600 256 , 000 colors 24 bit palette love ! new low fat sig n't e mail n't valid address send e mail
seth north1 acpub duke edu \( seth wandersman \) subject oak driver needed \( studio \) reply seth north1 acpub duke edu \( seth wandersman \) lines 8 nntp posting host north1 acpub duke edu hi , i'm looking 3 studio driver oak card 1 ram would greatly \( mean \) appreciated maybe gotten well know card thanks seth acpub duke edu
khan0095 nova gmi edu \( mohammad razi khan \) subject manipulating grid organization gmi engineering management institute , flint , mi lines 28 ok , lets say got grid go 10 9 10 9 etc total 15 rows means 10 1st line , 9 lined underneath second line 10 lined underneath third line 9 lined neath problem given center , line slope , line cross \( line n't necessarily cross center , even tangent count \) , friend trying figure w mohammad r khan khan0095 nova gmi edu july '93 , please send mail mkhan nyx cs du edu
tmc spartan ac brocku ca \( tim ciceran \) subject gif bmp organization brock university , st catharines ontario x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 distribution usa lines 21 scott zabolotzky \( saz hook corp mot com \) wrote i'm sure correct place ask question , please forgive point right direction anybody know program converts gif files bmp files , ftp \? help would greatly appreciated please respond via e mail read group often thanks scott sorry scott , post , read shareware program available via anonymous ftp suit needs 'll find oak oakland edu subdirectory pub msdos graphics file called grfwk61t zip tmc \( tmc spartan ac brocku ca \)
khan0095 nova gmi edu \( mohammad razi khan \) subject looking good book beginners organization gmi engineering management institute , flint , mi lines 10 wanted know recommend good book graphics , still animated , vga svga thanks advance mohammad r khan khan0095 nova gmi edu july '93 , please send mail mkhan nyx cs du edu
berger chaos cs brandeis edu \( david berger \) subject need graphics help ! organization brandeis university lines 32 help ! i'm trying program vga ! 've got working pascal following routines mode 13h \( 320 200 256 \) 've got vesa compatable trident 8900c w 1meg need program 1024 768 mode n't care many colors could someone take code help write 2 new procedures replace 'll work 1024 768 16 1024 768 256 \? 'd great ! thanks code currently 320 200 256 mode procedure begin asm mov ah , 00 mov al , 13h int 10h end end procedure \( x , , c integer \) begin mem a000 x 320 c end david
thinman netcom com \( technically sweet \) subject reverse negative video \? organization international foundation internal freedom lines 23 i'm interested reverse \( negative \) color video mathematically transform \? simple reversal hue value hsv color space \? manipulation yuv color space \? related \? want see something truly wild , turn reverse video effect camcorder equipped , point monitor creates chaotic system whose phase space continuous along rotation , zoom , focus , etc surprising lovely 'd like write simulation effect without analog thanks info may please e mail info 'll post summary thanks , lance thinman netcom com data information knowledge wisdom
orourke sophia smith edu \( joseph o'rourke \) subject need good concave convex polygon algorithm organization smith college , northampton , , us lines 16 article murdoch acc virginia edu rws2v uvacs cs virginia edu \( richard stoakley \) writes need good concave convex polygon conversion routine 've tried couple without much luck please e mail responses post summary replies thank richard stoakley rws2v uvacs cs virginia edu problem precisely defined , need find smallest convex polygon given polygon , seeking convex hull original polygon two ways use somewhat tricky well examined linear time algorithm exploits polygon boundary , feed vertices original polygon convex hull routine accept \( n log n \) methods discussed , example
brentb tamsun tamu edu \( brent \) subject please recommend 3d graphics library mac organization texas univ , inc lines 44 nntp posting host tamsun tamu edu tsa cellar org \( silent assassin \) writes rgc3679 bcstec ca boeing com \( robert g carpenter \) writes please offer recommendations \? 's really hard books explain everything , basic 3d functions , translation , rotation , shading , hidden line removal pretty easy wrote program weeks help book , would happy give source think wanted avoid reinventing wheel would suggest take code , submit comp sys mac binaries distributed \( including ftp sites \) many folks , included , would enjoy extra code also , quickdraw lot 3d functions built , think pascal access , would expect think c could well find use quickdraw graphics library , would excellent choice , since lot stuff , built mac , fast clarify , 3d routines mentioned various places mac , rom mac years ago knew anything implementing graphics , came across demo apple library actually lot however , quite limited sense 's low level 3d library code still plot individual points , draw line , etc ad nauseum nothing gl , example , handle objects things consider talking apple 's old 3d grafsys library unsupported never plans exist future undocumented unless call header files documentation one knows something graphics , could probably figure , 'd assume 's better software available gives better output , time , nicer \( e easier program \) 2 tax brent
jian coos dartmouth edu \( jian lu \) subject grayscale printer summary image printer 5000 distribution na organization dartmouth college , hanover , nh lines 6 interested purchasing grayscale printer offers good grayscale medical images anybody give recommendations products market , particular , 5000 \? thank advice
tdawson engin umich edu \( chris herringshaw \) subject graphics organization university michigan engineering , ann arbor lines 8 distribution world nntp posting host antithesis engin umich edu wondering anyone knows get information graphics series , system use think 's really awesome , would n't mind able use similar features programs thanks advance daemon
bcstec ca boeing com \( rick \) subject vision 3d site email unavailable organization boeing lines 21 used information provided recent resource listings tried ftp ccu1 aukland ac nz 130 216 1 5 ftp mac architec vision 3d facet received message mail paul bourke \( pdbourke ccu1 aukland ac nz \) bounces basically problem 'd go \? \? \? \? rick rick never ask program bcstec ca boeing com seattle , wa wastes time annoys
nfotis ntua gr \( nick c fotis \) subject \( 17 apr 93 \) computer graphics resource listing weekly part 2 3 lines 1023 reply nfotis theseas ntua gr \( nick \( nikolaos \) fotis \) organization national technical univ athens archive name graphics resources list part2 last modified 1993 04 17 computer graphics resource listing weekly posting part 2 3 last change 17 april 1993 14 plotting packages gnuplot 3 2 one best 2 3 plotting packages , online help 's command line driven interactive function plotting utility unix , msdos , amiga , archimedes , vms platforms \( least ! \) freely distributed , supports many terminals , plotters , printers easily extensible include new devices posted comp sources misc version 3 0 , plus 2 patches practically find everywhere \( use archie find site near ! \) comp graphics gnuplot newsgroup devoted discussion gnuplot xvgr xmgr \( ace gr \) xmgr xy plotting tool unix workstations using x openwindows xview version called xvgr suns collectively , 2 tools known ace gr compiling xmgr requires motif toolkit version 1 1 x11r4 xmgr compile x11r3 motif 1 0x check ftp ccalmr ogi edu 129 95 72 34 ccalmr pub acegr xmgr 2 09 tar z \( motif version \) ccalmr pub acegr xvgr 2 09 tar z \( xview version \) comments , suggestions , bug reports paul j turner ese ogi edu \( mail fails , try ese ogi edu \) due time constraints , replies far robot release 0 45 2 limited 3 based xview 3 , written c fortran \( need fortran compiler f2c translator \) mainly tested sun4 , less decstations check ftp astro psu edu \( 128 118 147 28 \) , pub astrod vg plotting library library fortran callable routines sunspot nist gov 129 6 64 151 xgobi 's developed bellcore , speciality multidimensional data sets analysis exploration call language also , works x11 client using athena widget set \( ascii terminal \) 's distributed free charge statlib cmu get via e mail , send email statlib temper stat cmu edu body area message , put line send xgobi general want pick via ftp , connect lib stat cmu edu log statlib use e mail address password type cd general mget xgobi warning 's 2 mb sources large postscript manual read relevant readme decide whether need runs vax vms supposedly unix 's set fortran routines freely available \( though copyrighted requiring nominal fee 50 \) includes contour plots support various devices , including ps contact deimos caltech edu host shorty cs wisc edu 128 105 2 8 pub tar z unknown details epigraph pcs call phys lgu spb su \( vladimir j \) details get program demo \( \) play version , sent 10 1251 budapest 60 hungary ph fax budapest ph amigas , shareware \( 30 usd , 20 uk 40 aust \) advanced 2d package big list features contact dr alan baxter bio cam ac uk , cambridge university department pathology , tennis court road , cambridge cb2 , uk athena plotter widget set version v6 0 based gregory bond 's version v5 beta added stuff scientific graphs , e log axes , free scalable axes , xy , added plotter callbacks v4 , e g request current pointer position , cut rectangle plotting area zooming version v6 0 log bugs fixed log improvements v6 beta additionally changes extensions , besides origin frame lines axes lines positions line plots different line types \( lines , points , lines points , impulses , lines impulses , steps , bars \) , line styles \( solid , dotted , dashed , dot dashed \) marker types data points legend right left hand side plot optional drawing pixmap instead window layout callback aligning axis positions using multiple plotters one application available export lcs mit edu , directory contrib plotter scientific 2d plotting manipulation program next \( requires nextstep 3 0 \) , 's shareware features ascii import export eps export copy , cut , paste data buffer free number data points , data buffer , document window selective open save plotting many styles automatic legend linear logarithmic axes two different axes text graphic color support zoom moving axis conversions free hand data manipulations \( cut , edit , move , etc \) data editor sorting data absolute , relative , free defined error bars calculating buffers \( , , , \) background \( linear , shirley , , bezier \) integration relative integration fitting one free defined functions linear regression calculations \( , , , , sin , cos , log , etc \) function generator spline interpolation least square smooth fft smooth fft esca calculations database something find ftp cs tu berlin de 130 149 17 7 pub next science 1 tar z author michael 73 , 1000 berlin 12 , germany mike rz berlin mpg de plplot plplot scientific plotting package many systems , small \( micro \) large \( super \) alike despite small size , enough power satisfy users , including standard x plots , plots , log log plots , contour plots , 3d plots , mesh plots , bar charts pie charts multiple graphs \( different sizes \) may placed single page multiple lines graph different line styles , widths colors supported virtually infinite number distinct area fill patterns may used almost 1000 characters extended character set includes four different fonts , greek alphabet host mathematical , musical , symbols fonts scaled size various effects many different output device drivers available \( system dependent \) , including portable metafile format renderer freely available \( copyrighted \) via anonymous ftp ph utexas edu , directory pub plplot present \( v 4 13 \) , plplot known work following systems unix sunos , ix , hp ux , unicos , dg ux , ultrix platforms vms , amiga exec , ms dos , os 2 , next authors many main supporters maurice lebrun mjl fusion ph utexas edu plplot kernel metafile , xterm , xwindow , tektronix , amiga drivers geoff furnish furnish fusion ph utexas edu ms dos os 2 drivers tony richardson amr egr duke edu plplot next 2 plotting package cmu , filename tmp sm 2 1 0 tar z \( probably ftp cmu edu andrew cmu edu machines \? \) gle gle high quality graphics package scientists runs variety platforms \( pcs , , unix \) drivers xwindows , regis , , pc graphics cards , , hp plotters , postscript printers , epson compatible printers laserjet printers provides latex quality fonts , well full support postscript fonts graphing module provides full control features graphs graphics primitives include user defined subroutines complex pictures diagrams accompanying utilities include surface \( hidden line surface plotting \) , contour \( contour plots \) , \( manipulation data files \) , \( fitting arbitrary equations data \) mailing list send message listserver biol scarolina edu , message boyd containing sub name maintainer dean biol scarolina edu 15 image analysis software image processing display pc mac based tools \( multi platform software \) imdisp imdisp written jpl nasa sites simple display , enhancing , smoothing works fits vicar pds data formats nasa read tiff images , know dimensions pc macs labview 2 labview used framework image processing tools provides graphical programming environment using block diagram sketch program graphical elements representing programming elements hundreds functions already available connected using wiring tool create block diagram \( program \) functions block diagrams represent include digital signal processing filtering , numerical analysis , statistics , etc tool allows virtual instrument \( vi , software file looks acts like real laboratory instrument \) used part virtual instrument national instruments markets plug digital signal processing \( dsp \) boards pc allow real time acquisition analysis personal computer new software tools dsp allowing engineers harness power technology tools range low level debugging software high level block diagram development software three levels dsp programming associated nb dsp2300 board labview use nb dsp2300 analysis library ffts , power spectra , filters routines callable think c macintosh workshop \( mpw \) c execute nb dsp2300 board analysis virtual interface library ready use vis optimized nb dsp2300 use national instruments developers toolkit includes optimizing c compiler , assembler linker low level programming dsp hardware approach offers highest level performance must difficult terms ease use use national instruments interface kit software package utility functions memory management data communications downloading code nb dsp2300 board \( easiest route development custom code \) ultimage concept vi concept vi france family image processing virtual instruments \( vis \) give labview 2 \( described \) users high end tools designing , integrating monitoring imaging control systems vi software file looks acts like real laboratory instrument typical applications concept vi include , surveillance , machine vision , production testing , biomedical imaging , electronic microscopy remote sensing ultimage concept vi addresses applications require qualitative quantitative analysis includes complete set functions image enhancement , histogram equalization , spatial frequency filtering , isolation features , thresholding , mathematical morphology analysis , density measurement , object counting , sizing characterization program loads images minimum resolution 64 64 , pixel depth 8 , 16 , 32 bits , one image plane standard input output formats include pict , tiff , , formats imported image enhancement features include lookup table transformations , spatial linear non linear filters , frequency filtering , arithmetic logic operations , geometric transformations , among others morphological transformations include erosion , dilation , opening , closing , hole removal , object separation , extraction skeletons , among others quantitative analysis provides objects' detection , measurement , morphological distribution measures include area , perimeter , center gravity , moment inertia , orientation , length relevant , shape factors equivalence measures saved ascii format program also provides macro scripting integration custom modules 3 view command plots perspective data graph image intensity mountains valleys plot histogram tool plotted either linear logarithmic scale twenty eight arithmetic logical operations provide masking averaging sections images , noise removal , making comparisons , etc 13 spatial filters alter pixel intensities based local intensity include high pass filters contrast outlines frequency data resulting fft analysis displayed either \( real , imaginary \) components \( phase , magnitude \) data morphological transformations useful data defining objects removing artifacts transformations include thresholding , , even hole filling program 's quantitative analysis measurements include area , perimeter , center mass , object counts , angle points , inc 2455 bennett valley road santa rosa , ca 707 579 iplab spectrum iplab spectrum supports image processing analysis lacks morphology quantitative analysis features provided ultimage concept vi using scripting tools , user tells system operations performed problem far many basic operations require manual intervention tool supports ffts , 16 arithmetic operations pixel alteration , movie command cycling windows macintosh based tools ncsa image , ncsa ncsa provides whole suite public domain visualization tools macintosh , primarily aimed researchers wanting visualize results numerical modelling calculations applications , documentation , source code available anonymous ftp ftp ncsa uiuc edu commercial versions ncsa programs developed spyglass spyglass , inc 701 drive champaign , il 61820 \( 217 \) 355 6000 fax 217 355 nih image available alw nih gov \( 128 231 128 7 \) \( preferably \) zippy nimh nih gov 128 231 98 32 , directory pub image painting image manipulation tools , macro language , tools measuring areas , distances angles , counting things using frame grabber card , record sequences images played back movie invoke user defined convolution matrix filters , gaussian import raw data tab ascii , 1 2 byte quantities also histograms even 3 plots limited 8 bits pixel , though 8 bits map color lookup table runs mac 256 color screen fpu \( get version zippy nimh nih gov \) data translation , inc 100 dr marlboro , 01752 508 481 3700 blue solutions place thousand oaks , ca 805 492 tcl image complete family \( hardware accelerator applications software \) scientific image processing analysis video rate capture , display , processing , analysis high resolution color images includes c source code tcl image software package scientific , quantitative image processing analysis provides complete language capture , enhancement , extraction quantitative information gray scale images tcl image 200 functions image processing , contains elements needed full programming language algorithm development variables control structures easily extensible script \( indirect command \) files script files simply text files contain tcl image commands executed normal commands include ability pass parameters direct capture video images supported via popular frame grabber boards tcl image comes view utility provides conversion common image file types , tiff 725 parkway knoxville , tn 615 966 satellite image workshop comes number satellite pictures \( raw data \) sorts image enhancing 'll need least mac ii co processor 256 color display large harddisk program n't run system 7 x v1 documentation contact address given liz smith , jet propulsion laboratory , ms 300 323 , 4800 oak grove dr , pasadena , ca 91109 \( 818 \) 354 visualization workbench electronic imaging software system performs interactive image analysis scientific 2d 3d plotting paragon imagine 171 lincoln st lowell , 508 441 2112 adobe photoshop tool supports colors 24 bit images 256 levels grey scale image imported various editing tools typical used macintosh based applications include eraser , pencil , brush air brush advanced tools control interaction pasted selection receiving site also incorporated example , red pixels selection easily preventing pasted photoshop transparencies ranging 0 100 , allowing create ghost overlays tools include control brightness contrast , color balancing , hue saturation modification spectrum equalization images subjected various signal processing algorithms smooth image , blur edges , locate edges image scaling also supported storage savings , images compressed using standard algorithms , including externally supplied compression jpeg , storm technologies latest version adobe photoshop supports import numerous image formats including epsf , epsf , tiff , pict resource , amiga iff ilbm , compuserve gif , macpaint , pixar , , ct , tga adobe systems , inc road po box 7900 mountain view , ca 94039 7900 415 961 4400 colorstudio colorstudio image editing paint package features adobe photoshop decidedly complex therefore difficult use several steps often required accomplish done single step using photoshop application requires great deal available disk space one easily end images 30 mb range program provides variety powerful selection tools including auto selection tool lets user choose image areas basis color , close hues , color range mask n't know usa 40 eisenhower drive , nj 201 845 6100 systems high resolution image analysis software provides processing tools work multiple images , enhance edit , measure variety global feature parameters , interpret data systems , 355 w olive ave , 100 sunnyvale , ca 94086 408 733 digital darkroom latest release digital darkroom five new selection editing tools enhancing images one feature allows user select part image simply painting new polyline selection tool creates selection tool single pixel wide selections brush lets operator paint selected portion image note true color image enhancement tool tool used user intends operate grey scale images noted digital darkroom powerful either adobe photoshop colorstudio silicon beach software carroll ctr rd , suite j san diego , ca 619 695 dimple compatible system 6 05 system 7 0 , requires mac lc ii series 256 colours , recommended min 6mb ram capability reading erdas files functions include image enhancement , 3d contour plots , image statistics , supervised unsupervised classification , image transformations also means \( image operation language \) write transformations image rectification , however dimple compatable latest version 1 4 beta stage testing dimple initially developed teaching tool good purpose dimple runs colour macintosh product still development phase e n't inbuilt features packages , coming along nicely inbuilt language writing programs processing image , defining convolution filters etc dimple full mac application pull menus etc unprotected software process software solutions , po box , wollongong , new south wales , australia 2500 phone 61 42 fax 61 42 enhance enhance tool supports measurements additionally provides angle data tool 80 mathematical filter variations laplacian , medium noise filter , etc files saved either tiff , pict , epsf text \( however epsf files ca n't imported \) road des moines , ia 515 270 image analyst image processing product users need extract quantitative data video images image analyst lets users configure sophisticated image processing measurement routines without necessity knowing programming language designed tasks computing number size cells images projected video cameras attached microscopes , enhancing measuring distances image analyst provides users array field proven video analysis techniques enable easily assemble sequence instructions enhance feature appearance count objects determine density , shape , size , position , movement perform object feature extraction conduct analysis automatically image analyst works either board standard video camera , disk stored image within minutes , without need programming , image analyst user set process identify analyze element image measurements statistics automatically semi automatically generated tiff pict files captured video tape images image analyst recognizes items images based size , shape position tool provides direct support data translation frame grabbers menu command allows image capture vcr video camera ntsc pal devices 2 types files , image related sequence file holds processing , measurements analysis user defines automated sequences set regions interest \( roi \) represented movable , sizable boxes atop image inside roi , program find distance two edges , area shape , thickness wall , etc image analyst finds center , edge positions automatically application also provides tools user work interactively find edge object also supports histograms color look table \( clut \) tool , inc 775 middlesex turnpike billerica , 508 667 7900 iplab signal corp 374 maple ave e vienna , va 703 281 fax 703 281 menu driven image processing software supports 24 bit color pseudocolor grayscale image display manipulation map ii among mac gis systems , map ii distributed john wiley integrated image analysis image stanford try anonymous ftp sumex aim stanford edu pd source image v2 , ready run code mac image v3 windows dos pc based tools ccd richard berry 's ccd imaging book bell contains \( optional \? \) disks image manipulating software source code included erdas erdas things want rectification , classification , transformations \( canned user defined \) , overlays , filters , contrast enhancement , etc using thesis changed topic bit work became secondary erdas , inc 2801 buford highway suite 300 atlanta , ga 404 248 9000 fax 404 248 9400 rsvga getting speed program called rsvga available digital image ltd british columbia ibm pc 's clones , cheap \( 400 \) stuff erdas fast powerful , though limited experience erdas used rsvga 6 7 landsat bands good starter program except manual imagine 32 's 32 bit package suppose pcs called program modest amount image processing add , subtract , multiply , divide , display , plot x cut across image also display number images simultaneously company , santa barbara , ca pc vista announced 1989 august edition known available mike richmond , whose email addresses richmond berkeley edu richmond berkeley edu mail address michael richmond , astronomy department , campbell hall , berkeley , ca 94720 latest version pc vista , version 1 7 , includes source code help files , also complete set executable programs number sample fits images wish use source code , need microsoft c , version 5 0 later compilers may work , require substantial modifications receive documentation nine double density \( 360k \) floppies \( three quad density 3 1 2 inch floppies \( 1 44m \) everything , send request pc vista , together name us mail address , office technology licensing 2150 ave , suite 510 berkeley , ca include check \( 's checks fine \) purchase order 150 00 u dollars , address inside continental u , 165 00 otherwise , made university california cover duplication mailing costs software tools 's set software tools put canyon state systems software free , rather cheap 30 heard handle formats used frame grabber software mirage 's image processing software written jim gunn astrophysics dept princeton run pc among platforms forth based system e forth language many image processing displaying functions built data translation source book data translation company massachusetts publishes free book containing vendors data analysis hardware software compatible data translation frame grabbers surely find much pc related stuff couple canadians written program named maximum entropy image deconvolution company named digital signal processing software , something like , software mentioned article astronomy magazine , either jan feb 92 \( article ccd 's vs film \) jandel scientific \( java \) another software package \( java \) put jandel scientific jandel scientific , 65 koch road , , ca , \( 415 \) 924 , \( 800 \) 874 1888 runs ms dos platform uses 32 bit graphics card \( vista \) , released version support number super vga cards full blown remote sensed data processing system menu driven \( character based screen \) , use windowed user interface hardware protected micro barrier reef image system developed csiro \( commonwealth scientific industrial organization \) marketed supported mpa australia \( 51 road , , victoria tel 61 3 724 fax 61 3 724 \) educational commercial prices , prepared set aside first educational licence subsequent ones come cheaper \( need ! \) installed sites worldwide widely used anu remote sensing lab dartmouth currently uses terra mar 's , 486 pcs fancy display hardware terra mar resource information services , inc 1937 landings drive mountain view , ca 94043 415 964 6900 fax 415 964 unix based tools iraf \( image reduction analysis facility \) developed national optical astronomy observatory , kitt peak az free , ftp noao edu 140 252 1 1 complement stsci edu 130 167 1 2 email iraf noao edu details apparently one de facto standards astronomical image community issue newsletter also seem support well users works vms also last heard , practically shell top vms unix shells 's suggested get copy display x windows flexible extendable tons \( literally 3 linear feet \) documentation general user , skilled user , programmer alv sun specific image toolkit version 2 0 6 posted comp sources sun also available via email alv users request cs ac uk aips astronomical image processing system contact nrao edu \( also see usenet newsgroups alt sci astro aips sci astro fits \) built nrao \( national radio astronomy observatory , hq charlottesville , va , sites nm , az , wv \) software distributed 9 track , exabyte , dat , \( non anonymous \) internet ftp documentation \( postscript mostly \) available via anonymous ftp baboon cv nrao edu \( 192 33 115 103 \) , directory pub aips pub aips text publ installation requires building system thus fortran c compiler package read write fits data \( see sci astro fits \) , primarily reduction , analysis , image enhancement radio astronomy data radio telescopes , particularly large array \( \) , synthesis instrument consists almost 300 programs everything copying data sophisticated deconvolution , e g via maximum entropy x11 based image tool \( xas \) tek compatible xterm based graphics tool built aips xas tool hardware functionality international imaging systems model 70 display unit image arithmetic , etc code mostly fortran 77 system c language modules , available suns , ibm rs 6000 , dec ultrix , convex , cray \( unicos \) , alliant support planned hp 9000 7xx , solaris 2 1 , maybe sgi currently project aips underway rewrite algorithmic functionality aips modern setting , using c object oriented approach whereas aips proprietary code \( licensed free non profit institutions \) owner nrao nsf , aips public domain level , international effort contributions us , canada , england , netherlands , india , australia name laboimage \( version 4 0 x11 \) 's written c , currently runs sun 3 xxx , sun 4 xxx \( 5 , 4 0 4 0 3 \) sunview expert system image segmentation written common lisp used following domains computer science \( image analysis \) , medicine , biology , physics distributed free charge \( source code \) available via anonymous ftp ftp ads com \( 128 229 30 16 \) , pub vision list archive shareware laboimage contact prof thierry pun , computer vision group computing science center , u geneva 12 , rue du , ch 1207 geneva switzerland phone 41 \( 22 \) 787 65 82 fax 41 \( 22 \) 735 39 05 e mail pun cui ch pun bitnet figaro originally made vms , obtained keith australia \( ks gov au \) unix sam caltech \( sns deimos caltech edu \) 's sun khoros moved scientific visualization category vista real thing available via anonymous ftp lowell edu email vista lowell edu details total size less disimp \( device independent software image processing \) powerful system providing user friendliness high functionality interactive times feature description disimp incorporates rich library image processing utilities spatial data options functions easily accessed via disimp executive menu modular design groups image processes function logical structure means complicated processes simply progression series modules processes include image rectification , classification \( unsupervised supervised \) , intensity transformations , three dimensional display principal component analysis disimp also supports simple effective enhancement techniques filtering , band subtraction host configuration requirements running unix workstations , disimp capable processing computational intensive techniques interactive processing times disimp available runtime programmer 's environments using programmers environment , utilities developed specific applications programs graphics governed icon based display panel allows quick displayed image manipulations look tables , colour stretches , changes histograms , zooming panning interactively driven control range geographic projections enables disimp integrate data image , graphic textual types images rectified number coordinate systems , providing true geographic knowledge essential ground overlays , text vector data added enhance referenced imagery system flexible package allowing users various skill levels determine working environment , including amount help required disimp comes fully configured optional extras purchase price includes functionality required professional processing remote sensed data information , please contact business manager , engineering group systems division , 627 chapel street , south , australia telephone 61 3 825 5555 fax 61 3 826 6463 global imaging software use global imaging software process avhrr data , dish final display select chunk five band data pass , automatic navigation , calibrate albedo temp , convert byte , register window , relatively automatically classification routines speak , n't difficult write programmer 's module small operation one designs , one codes , one sells around number years , sold weather service navy runs hp9000 hp ux supports 24 bit display hips \( human information processing laboratory 's image processing system \) michael landy co wrote sell general purpose package image processing used basically usual image processing applications \( robotics , medical , satellite , engineering , oil exploration , etc \) called hips , deals sequences images way deals single images growing since first wrote , additions us well huge user contributed library feature description hips set image processing modules together provide powerful suite tools interested research , system development teaching handles sequences images \( movies \) precisely manner single frames programs subroutines developed simple image transformations , filtering , convolution , fourier transform processing , edge detection line drawing manipulation , digital image compression transmission methods , noise generation , image statistics computation 150 image transformation programs developed result , almost image processing task performed quickly conveniently additionally , hips allows users easily integrate custom routines new users become effective using hips first day hips features images self documenting image stored system contains history transformations applied image hips includes small set subroutines primarily deals standardized image sequence header , large library image transformation tools form unix comes complete source code , line manual pages , line documentation host configuration requirements originally developed new york university , hips represents one extensive flexible vision image processing environments currently available runs unix operating system modular flexible , provides automatic documentation actions , almost entirely independent special equipment hips use variety computers including vax , sun , apollo , , ncr tower , iris , ibm , etc image display input , drivers supplied \( \) image processors , sun 2 , sun 3 , sun 4 , sun 386i consoles also supply user contributed drivers number windowing packages \( sun gfx , sun console , matrox vip 1024 , iti ip 512 , , macintosh ii , x windowing system , iris \) package includes interface crs 4000 simple matter interface hips frame stores , put interested users touch users interfaced hips max video hips easily adapted image display devices 98 hips machine independent availability hips proven highly flexible system , interactive research tool , production oriented tasks easy use , quickly adapted extended new uses hips supplied magnetic tape unix tar format \( either reel reel sun cartridge \) , comes source code , libraries , library tion masks , line documentation manual pages michael landy software p box 373 , prince street station new york , ny voice \( 212 \) 998 fax \( 212 \) 995 msl cns nyu edu mira please confuse animation system montreal altogether different beasts ! nfotis mira stands microcomputer image reduction analysis mira gives workstation level performance 386 486 dos computers using svga cards 256 color modes 1024x768 mira contains handsome functional gui mouse keystroke operated mira reads writes tiff fits formats , native formats number ccd cameras , uncompressed binary images byte , short integer , 4 byte real pixel format 1 2 dimensions result image processing operation short integer real pixels , input image mira operation using short floating point arithmetic maintain precision accuracy pixel format 100 functions hand coded assembly language maximum speed intel hardware entire graphical interface also written assembly language maximize speed windowing operations windows 2 image 1 image data display analysis dedicated cursors read position value value real time move mouse also smooth , real time contrast brightness stretch panning magnified portion displayed image \( \) , operated mouse wide selection grayscale , pseudocolor , random palettes provided , palettes generated supported functions include following image image interpolation image constant operations abs value , polynomial pixel value , , 1 x , log , , clip values upper lower limits , short real real short combine images mean , median , mode , sum pixel values , without mean , median , mode image section filters laplacian , sobel edge operator , directional gradient , line , gaussian , elliptical rectangular equal weight filters , masking , median filters , user defined filter kernel ellipse , rectangle , line , gradient , gaussian , user defined filters rotated specified angle ccd data reduction flat fielding , dark subtraction , column bias removal , remove bad pixels column defects , region target mean , median , modal value create , mosaic x n 1 2 images get larger image , collapse 2 image 1 image plot 1 section collapsed section 2 image , plot histogram region image review change image information header data , rename keywords , plot keyword values set images photometry elliptical circular aperture photometry , brightness profile , photometry set upper lower , area inside traced polygon interactive background fitting removal part image , fit elliptical aperture shape image interactive 2 image contrast brightness , x diagonal plot pixel values , distance two points , compute region stats , ` , pan x , location image center , zoom 1 16 10 times , change cursor rectangle crosshair , full image crosshair , , adjust cursor size image select linear , log gamma transfer function histogram equalization interactive specified image offset computation sampling registration interactive 1 image zoom x steps 1 2 2 times current , center plot , enlarge framed area 4 plot buffers cycled interactive data analysis polynomial fitting , point deletion , , change value , point weighting , linear quadratic smoothing , revert unit point weights original data buffer , substitute results data buffer pass back calling function dump data buffer \( overlays error bars \) file printer change user specified coordinate system image combination display , hardcopy halftone printout hp pcl compatible printers \( laserjet , deskjet , etc \) documentation 300 pages custom vinyl binder cost 995 usd copy available axiom research , inc box tucson , az \( 602 \) 791 phone fax international marketing rep scientific corporation , tucson , arizona end part 2 resource listing nick \( nikolaos \) fotis national technical univ athens , greece home 16 esperidon st , internet nfotis theseas ntua gr halandri , gr 152 32 uucp mcsun ! ariadne ! theseas ! nfotis athens , greece fax \( 30 1 \) 77 84 578
nfotis ntua gr \( nick c fotis \) subject \( 17 apr 93 \) computer graphics resource listing weekly part 3 3 lines reply nfotis theseas ntua gr \( nick \( nikolaos \) fotis \) organization national technical univ athens archive name graphics resources list part3 last modified 1993 04 17 computer graphics resource listing weekly posting part 3 3 last change 17 april 1993 11 scene generators geographical data maps data files dems \( digital elevation models \) dems \( digital elevation models \) well cartographic data huge available spectrum xerox com 192 70 225 78 , pub map contact lee moore webster research center , xerox corp voice 1 \( 716 \) 422 arpa , internet moore xerox com check also ucsb edu \( 128 111 254 105 \) , pub dems nfotis many files also available cd rom usgs 1 2 , 000 , 000 scale digital line graph \( dlg \) data contains 50 states price 28 , call visit offices menlo park , reston , virginia \( 800 usa maps \) data user services division bureau census also data cd rom \( tso standard format \) derived usgs 1 100 , 000 map data call \( 301 \) 763 4100 info bbs \( 301 \) 763 1568 dr dobbs 198 march 1993 u defense mapping agency , cooperation counterpart agencies canada , u k , australia , released digital chart world \( \) chart consists 1 5 gigabytes reasonable quality vector data distributed four cd roms includes , rivers , roads , , airports , cities , towns , spot elevations , depths , 100 , 000 place names compatible 200 00 available u geological survey p box denver federal center denver , co digital distribution services energy , mines , resources canada 615 booth street ottawa , canada director general military survey \( survey 3 \) avenue , middlesex united kingdom director survey , australian army department defense campbell park offices \( 4 24 \) campbell act australia fractal landscape generators public domain many people written fractal landscape generators example mac generators written pdbourke ccu1 aukuni ac nz \( paul bourke \) many programs available ftp sites mail archive servers check archie commercial vista pro 3 0 amiga virtual reality labs list price 100 address court san luis obispo , ca telephone fax \( 805 \) 545 8515 scenery animator \( also amiga \) caliber vista pro 2 check natural graphics p box 1963 , ca phone \( 916 \) 624 n't forget ask companion programs data disks tapes vista pro 3 ported pcs cia world map ii note database quite date , structured need standard world cartographic data , wait digital chart world 1 1m database produced defense mapping agency 's available , together searching viewing software , number cd roms later summer check hanauma stanford edu ucsd edu \( see ftp list \) cia database consists , rivers political boundaries form line strokes also hanauma stanford edu array elevation data , containing one ieee floating point number every half degree longitude latitude program decoding database , , found machine arc umn edu \( 137 66 130 11 \) 's another program , reads compressed cia data bank file builds phigs structure uses phigs extension known polyline sets performance , use regular polylines ask joe stewart joes lpi liant com raw data stanford require package able view \( posted comp sources unix \) exact , 'll compile routines , whole package ncar data ncar \( national center atmospheric research \) many types terrain data , ranging elevation datasets various resolutions , information soil types , vegetation , etc data free charge 40 90 , depending data volume media \( exabyte tape , cartridge , 9 track tape , ibm pc floppy , ftp transfer available \) data archive mostly research oriented , hobbyist oriented information , email ncar ucar edu unc data tapes data 2 public domain tapes data comparison testing various volume rendering algorithms \( mainly mri ct scans \) tapes distributed softlab unc chapel hill \( softlab cs unc edu \) data sets \( volume ii \) also available via anonymous ftp omicron cs unc edu 128 109 136 159 pub softlab chvrtd nasa many us agencies nasa publish cd roms many data various space missions , eg viking mars , magellan venus , etc especially nasa , would suggest call following address info national space science date center goddard space flight center greenbelt , maryland 20771 telephone \( 301 \) 286 6695 email address request nssdca gsfc nasa gov data catalog \( data \) available online internet users telnet nssdca gsfc nasa gov \( 128 183 10 4 \) log 'nodis' \( password \) also dial \( 301 \) 286 9000 \( 300 , 1200 , 2400 baud , 8 bits , parity , one stop \) enter number prompt , enter md carriage return system responds call complete , enter carriage returns get username log 'nodis' \( password \) nssdca also anonymous ftp site , comprehensive list 's available present earth sciences data 's listing anonymous ftp sites earth science data , including imagery listing called earth sciences resources internet , get via anonymous ftp csn org 128 138 213 21 directory name internet resources earth sci sites include soest hawaii edu 128 171 151 121 pub avhrr images avhrr images ames arc nasa gov 128 102 18 3 pub space cdrom images magellan viking missions etc pub space index contains listing files available whole archive \( index 200k \) 's also e mail server people without internet access send letter archive server ames arc nasa gov \( ames ! archive server \) subject letter \( body \) , use commands like send space index send space shuttle 23 91 \( capitalization important ! text files handled email server present \) larc nasa gov 128 155 23 47 pub gifs misc landsat landsat photos gif jpeg format shut nfotis anyone copy archive \? \? others daily values river discharge , , daily weather data available , central ave , boulder co 80301 disks expensive , around 500 , quantity discounts \( 303 \) 938 check vmd cso uiuc edu 128 174 5 98 , wx directory carries data regarding surface analysis , weather radar , sat view pics gif format \( updated hourly \) pioneer unm edu 129 24 9 217 space planetary image facility \( located university new mexico campus \) ftp server provides anonymous ftp access 150 cd roms data images disk earthquake data , , gravity , info available \( national geophysical data center \) , 325 broadway , boulder , co 80303 \( 303 \) 497 \( least us \) sells landsat mss data older two years old 200 per scene , talking similar deal landsat tm data mss data 4 bands , 80 meter resolution check anonymous ftp ftp ncsa uiuc edu unix alpha shape tool creates convex alpha shapes \( generalization convex hull \) 3d point sets grips ii \( gov raster image processing software \) cd rom available cd rom inc 1 800 821 49 code viewing \( arc raster graphics \) files available grips ii cd rom u army engineer labs \( juan perez \) code also available via ftp \( zip archive spectrum xerox com \) range data , l three dimensional image data files , tech report , , national research council canada , ottawa , canada , 1988 understand , data laser range finder , copy research purposes 12 3d scanners digitized 3d data cyberware labs , monterey , ca , manufactures 3d color laser digitizer used model parts , complete , human body run service bureau also , digitize models address cyberware labs , inc 8 harris ct , suite 3d monterey , ca phone \( 408 \) 373 1441 , fax \( 408 \) 373 b makes 6d input device \( actually couple models \) senses position \( 3d \) orientation \( 3d \) based electromagnetic field interference equipment also incorporated vpl hardware also called , aerospace ascension technology makes similar 3d input device company , applied sciences \( \? \) , makes 3d input device \( position \) based speed sound triangulation c company specializes digitizing viewpoint ask viewpoint 's free 100 page catalog full ready ship datasets categories cars , anatomy , aircraft , sports , boats , trains , animals others though objects quite expensive , nevertheless interest pictures available objects wireframe , polygon mesh contact viewpoint , 870 west center , orem , utah ph 801 224 2222 fax 801 224 1 800 addresses companies make ascension technology bird , flock birds , big bird 6d trackers p box 527 , burlington , vt phone \( 802 \) 655 , fax \( 802 \) 655 incorporated digitizer 6d trackers p box 560 , hercules dr , vt tel \( 802 \) 655 logitech inc red baron , ultrasonic 6d mouse kaiser dr , ca tel \( 415 \) 795 shooting star technology mechanical 1921 ave burnaby , b c canada tel \( 604 \) 298 fax \( 604 \) 298 spaceball technologies , inc spaceball 6d stationary input device 600 street lowell , , 01854 tel \( 508 \) 970 0330 fax \( 508 \) 970 tel mountain view \( 415 \) 966 systems gold brick powerglove macintosh p box n mit branch post office cambridge , 02139 tel \( 617 \) 969 email applelink apple com vpl research , inc head mounted display glove hand input device vpl research inc 950 tower lane 14th floor foster city , ca tel \( 415 \) 312 0200 fax \( 415 \) 312 engineering flying mouse 6d input device 1137 huntington rd suite 1 south pasadena , ca \( 213 \) 255 0900 13 background imagery textures datafiles first , check ftp places mentioned faq ftp list 24 bit scanning get good 24 bit scanner , like epson 's suggested scsi port speed eric haines suggestion rt news , volume 4 , 3 scan textures wallpapers floor , etc doll house supplies rather cheap way scan patterns n't scaling troubles associated real materials scanning area books textures find houses books magazines carry photographic material , 1 619 536 9999 , sells cd roms various imagery also wide variety stock art available stock art big name stock art houses , , , metro image base , available italy , 's company called belvedere makes books purpose clipping pages inclusion graphics work address edition belvedere co ltd , rome italy , , 19 tel \( 06 \) 360 44 88 , fax \( 06 \) 360 29 60 texture libraries sceptre graphics announced , set 24 bit textures initial shipments 24 bit iff \( amigas \) , soon 24 bit tiff format built tiled surfaces srp 40 volume \( volume 40 images 10 disks \) demo disks 5 available contact sceptre graphics 1600 indiana ave winter park , fl phone \( 407 \) 384 fax \( 407 \) 647 b essence library 65 \( sixty five \) new textures imagine impulse , inc textures fully compatible floating point versions imagine 2 0 , imagine 1 1 , even turbo silver written steve worley info contact essence info apex software publishing 405 el camino real suite 121 menlo park ca 94025 usa texture city \? \? 14 introduction rendering algorithms ray tracing assume general understanding computer graphics \? read books faq contains ray tracing , would suggest introduction ray tracing , andrew glassner \( ed \) , academic press 1989 , isbn 0 12 4 note read book , feel ca n't wrong using book errata list posted comp graphics eric haines \( erich eye com \) 's concise reference also roman , unc chapel hill introduction ray tracing , theoretical foundations computer graphics cad , ed r e , nato , vol f 40 , pp 1039 1060 printed springer verlag , 1988 contains code small , fundamentally complete ray tracer b z buffer \( depth buffer \) good reference procedural elements computer graphics , david f rogers , mcgraw hill , new york , 1985 , pages 265 272 280 284 c others \? \? \? info needed nfotis 15 find geometric data teapot \? displays display column ieee cg jan '87 whole story origin martin newell 's teapot article also bezier patch model pascal program display wireframe model teapot ieee cg sep '87 jim blinn 's column jim blinn 's corner describes another way model teapot bezier curves rotations example used spd packages objects , 're advised get avoid typing data data triangles specific resolution \( around x4 triangles meshing per patch \) spd package provides spline patch descriptions performs specified resolution b space shuttle \? tolis tolis nova stanford edu built list space shuttle datafiles 's summary \( sci space list \) modified version newsgroup model \( \) 406 vertices \( 296 useful , e referred polygon descriptions \) 389 polygons \( 233 3 vertex , 146 4 vertex , 7 5 vertex , 3 6 vertex \) payload doors non existent units unknown simon marshall \( marshall sequent cc hull ac uk \) copy said proprietary information associated newsgroup model , format find gondwana ecr mu oz au , file pub objects shuttle geo hanauma stanford edu , pub graphics comp graphics objects shuttle data model model stored several files , defining portions model greg henderson \( infonode ingr com \) copy mention restriction model 's distribution nasa model file starts header line containing three real numbers , defining offsets used lockheed simulations x offset offset z offset , file consists sequence polygon descriptions vertices polygons \( 407 3 vertex , 2268 4 vertex , 33 5 vertex , 14 6 vertex , 10 7 vertex , 8 8 vertex , 8 12 vertex , 2 13 vertex , 2 15 vertex , 17 16 vertex , 2 17 vertex , 2 18 vertex , 3 19 vertex , 8 24 vertex \) payload doors closed units inches jon \( jon jsc nasa gov \) seems responsible model proprietary info unknown old shuttle model file consists sequence polygon descriptions 104 vertices 452 polygons \( 11 3 vertex , 41 4 vertex \) payload doors open units meters using model star labs , stanford university , years contact \( tolis nova stanford edu \) supervisor scott williams \( scott stanford edu \) want copy 16 image annotation software runs sunview pretty good reads , even image n't normally stored rasterfile format could use screendump make rasterfile b idraw \( part stanford 's interviews distribution \) handle image formats addition macdraw like tool i'm sure exactly ftp idraw 's binary interviews stanford edu c tgif another macdraw like tool handle x11 bitmap \( xbm \) x11 pixmap \( xpm \) formats image formats xbm xpm , get pbmplus toolkit convert things like gif even macintosh formats xpm tgif 's sources available pub directory cs ucla edu \( version 2 12 tgif patchlevel 7 plus \) use facility khoros \( see \) one utility overall system essentially image processing macdraw type graphics using package e might able get pbmplus gives text output bitmaps overlaid top image f requires sun hardware running openwindows 3 's postscript based graphical editor , 's available anonymous ftp internet host eo soest hawaii edu \( 128 171 151 12 \) requires sun c 2 0 two locally developed packages , lxt library \( xlib based toolkit \) small c class library files \( pub ice tar z , pub lxt tar z pub tar z \) available compressed tar format pub ice tar z contains readme gives installation instructions , well extensive man page \( ice 1 \) statically linked compressed executable pub ice sun4 z sparc systems also available ftp software property columbia university may redistributed without permission ice means image composition environment 's imaging tool allows raster images combined wide variety postscript wysiwyg fashion via x11 imaging routines news postscript g use imagemagick image x server pick position text cursor choose font pen color pull menu imagemagick read write many popular image formats imagemagick available export lcs mit edu contrib imagemagick tar z nearest x11 archive 17 scientific visualization stuff x data slice \( \) bundled x11 distribution mit , contrib directory available ftp ncsa uiuc edu 141 142 20 50 \( either source binaries various platforms \) national center supercomputing applications \( ncsa \) tool suite platforms unix workstations \( dec , ibm , sgi , sun \) apple macintosh cray supercomputers availability available source code public domain ftp ftp ncsa uiuc edu contact national center supercomputing applications computing applications building 605 e springfield ave champaign , il 61820 cost free \( zero dollars \) suite includes tools 2d image 3d scene analysis visualization code actively maintained updated spyglass sell commercial versions ncsa tools examples spyglass \( 3d volumetric data analysis package \) platform mac spyglass transform \( 2d data analysis package \) platforms mac , sgi , sun , dec , hp , ibm contact spyglass , inc p box champaign , il \( 217 \) 355 6000 khoros 1 0 patch 5 available via anonymous ftp pprg eece unm edu \( 129 24 24 10 \) cd pub khoros see available huge \( 100 mb \) , good needs unix x11r4 freely copied \( pd \) , complete sources docs extensive heart visual programming khoros components include visual programming language , code generators extending visual language adding new application packages system , interactive user interface editor , interactive image display package , extensive library image signal processing routines , 2d 3d plotting packages see comp soft sys khoros usenet relative faq info contact khoros group room 110 eece dept university new mexico albuquerque , nm email khoros request chama eece unm edu analysis visualization application macintosh operates 1d 2d data arrays import export several different file formats several different plotting options gray scale , color raster , 3d wire frame , 3d surface , contour , vector , line , combinations ffts , filtering , math functions , color look editor , array calculator , etc shareware , available via anonymous ftp sumex aim stanford edu info mac app directory information contact doug norton \( e mail 461 compuserve com \) iris explorer 's application creation system developed silicon graphics provides visualisation analysis functionality computational scientists , engineers scientists explorer gui allows users build custom applications without write , minimal amount , traditonal code also , existing code easily integrated explorer environment explorer currently available sgi cray machines , become available platforms time bundled every new sgi machine , far know see comp graphics explorer comp sys sgi discussion package also two ftp servers related stuff , modules etc ftp ed ac uk 129 215 56 29 lerc nasa gov 139 88 54 33 mirror uk site ape back good days' , could get ape nearly free gone commercial following vendor supplies corporation 929 harrison avenue columbus , ohio tel 1 800 458 \( 614 \) 291 fax \( 614 \) 291 cost 895 \( plus tax \) runtime version site license single user \( time \) , limit number machines cluster 895 includes support maintenance upgrades source code additional user licenses 360 name package become ape iii \( tm \) khoros similar ape philosophy , avs explorer avs see also comp graphics avs platforms convex , cray , dec , evans sutherland , hp , ibm , kubota , set technologies , sgi , stardent , sun , wavetracer availability available unix workstations contact advanced visual systems inc 300 fifth ave waltham , 02154 \( 617 \) 890 4300 telephone \( 617 \) 890 fax avs avs com email advanced visual systems inc cray , hp , ibm , sgi , stardent , sun convex convex advanced visual systems inc cray cray dec dec evans sutherland evans sutherland advanced visual systems inc ibm ibm kubota pacific inc kubota set technologies set technologies wavetracer wavetracer ftp site modules , data sets , info avs ncsc org \( 128 109 178 23 \) wit nutshell 's package avs , explorer , etc seems image processing system generic system \( imho \) major elements visual programming language , automatically exploits inherent parallelism code generator converts graph standalone program iconified libraries present rich set point , filter , io , transform , morphological , segmentation , measurement operations flow library allows graphs employ broadcast , merge , synchronization , conditional , sequencing control strategies wit delivers object oriented , distributed , visual programming environment allows users rapidly design solutions imaging problems users software hardware developments within complete cad like workspace adding operators \( c functions \) , objects \( data structures \) , servers \( specialized hardware \) wit runs sun , hp9000 7xx , sgi supports mv 20 200 hardware allowing run graphs real time free wit demo disk , call , fax , e mail \( poon ee ubc ca \) us stating complete name , address , voice , fax , e mail info desired platform pricing wit sparc , one yr free upgrades , 30 days technical support 5000 us academic institutions discounts available contact logical vision ltd suite 108 3700 way burnaby , b c , canada tel 604 435 fax 604 435 terry arden poon ee ubc ca vis 5d system visually exploring output 5 data sets made weather models platforms sgi iris vgx , gtx , tg , g graphics , sgi crimson indigo \( r4000 , elan graphics suggested \) , irix 4 0 x ibm rs 6000 gl graphics , aix version 3 later stardent gs 1000 gs 2000 \( truecolor display \) case , 32 \( \) mb ram suggested get freely \( thanks nasa support \) via anonymous ftp ftp iris wisc edu \( ftp 144 92 108 63 \) , ftp cd pub ftp ascii ftp get readme ftp bye note find package also wuarchive wustl edu graphics graphics packages directory read section 2 readme file full instructions get install vis 5d contact bill \( vms macc wisc edu \) brian paul \( vms macc wisc edu \) \( ibm \) platforms ibm risc system 6000 , ibm power visualization server \( mesh 32 , 40 mhz \) working \( announced \) sgi , hp , sun contact local ibm rep trial package ask rep contact david kilgore data explorer product marketing \( \) , \( 708 \) 981 wavefront data visualizer , personal visualizer , advanced visualizer platforms sgi , sun , ibm rs6000 , hp , dec availability available platforms wavefront technologies educational programs site licenses available contacts mike wilson \( mike wti com \) wavefront technologies , inc 530 east street santa barbara , ca 93103 805 962 fax 805 963 wavefront europe 21 23 b 9000 , belgium 32 91 25 45 55 fax 32 91 23 44 56 wavefront technologies japan bldg 2 6 1 , ku tokyo 168 japan 81 3 fax 81 3 7353 fast nasa ames packages distributed cosmic least \( fast ask pat nas nasa gov distribution information \) general , codes us citizens \( xgraph contrib tape x11r5 specialty display 64 data sets \( 2d \) ncar national center atmospheric research one original graphics packages runs sun , rs6000 , sgi , vax , cray mp , decstations , contact graphics information ncar scientific computing division p box 3000 boulder , co 80307 3000 \( 303 \) 497 1201 ncar ucar edu cost edu 750 unlimited users gov 750 1 user 1500 5 users 3000 25 users com users multiply gov 2 0 idl environment scientific computing visualization based array oriented language , idl includes 2d 3d graphics , matrix , signal image processing , basic statistics , , mapping , widget based system building gui idl applications \( open look , motif , ms windows \) environments dec \( vms ultrix \) , hp , ibm rs6000 , sgi , sun , microsoft windows \( mac version progress \) cost 1500 , educational quantity discounts available see also comp lang idl \( idl bundle \) contact research systems inc 777 29th street , suite 302 boulder , co 80303 phone 303 786 fax 303 786 e mail info com demo available via ftp call e mail details idl sips lot people using idl package called sips developed university colorado \( boulder \) people working alex goetz might try contacting already idl would willing buy 's thousand dollars \( american \) expect idl free general purpose packages 've heard , besides sips written aviris imagery i'm sure general purpose would contact goetz one people ask another piece software \( pcw \) pc walsh transformations clustering limited image modification \( compute image using selected components \) 've used 70 megabyte aviris images without problems , best speed need external dsp card work without , large images take quite \( 50 70 times long \) process 's freebie want favorite idl \( interactive data language \) research systems , inc idl opinion , much better infinitely easier programming language strong easy pascal like handles number crunching well , also personally , like number crunching idl vax \( mathematica , igor , even excel mac 's hairy \) , bringing nih image imaging part yet encounter situation combination could n't handle , speed ease use \( compared iraf \) incredible way , 's mostly astronomical image processing 've means image enhancement , cleaning bad lines pixels , traditional image processing routines , example , taking graph intensity versus position along line choose mouse , curve fit line \( might like \) idl call research systems , pv wave call precision visuals sips call university colorado boulder understand , get packaged programs research systems , though nfotis contact robert , mit interactive program designed assist engineer investigating fluid dynamics data sets platforms sgi , ibm , hp , sun , x terminals availability currently available platforms educational programs volume discounts available contact intelligent light p box 65 fair lawn , nj \( 201 \) 794 steve kramer \( kramer com \) scian scian primarily intended 3 data interactive environment ability generate animations using frame accurate video recording devices user manual , line help , technical notes help use program cost 0 \( free \) , source code provided via ftp platforms sgi 4d machines ibm rs 6000 gl card z buffer find ftp scri fsu edu 144 174 128 34 pub scian mirror cc monash edu au 130 194 1 101 pub scian scry readme scry distributed image handling system pro image transport compression local wide area networks , image viewing workstations , recording video equipment , storage disk system among workstations , supercomputers works , supercomputers , workstations video animation controllers system commonly used produce video based movie displays images resulting visualization time dependent data , complex 3d data sets , image processing operations clients servers run variety systems provide unix like c run time environments , sockets source available anonymous ftp csam lbl gov 128 3 254 6 pub scry tar z contact bill johnston , \( lbl gov , ucbvax ! csam lbl gov ! johnston \) david robertson \( lbl gov , ucbvax ! csam lbl gov ! davidr \) imaging technologies group ms lawrence berkeley laboratory 1 road berkeley , ca 94720 svlib fvs svlib x windows widget set based osf \( open software foundation \) motif widget set svlib widgets macro widgets comprising lower level motif widgets buttons , scrollbars , menus , drawing areas designed address 2d visualization routines widget library encapsulation specific visualization technique colormap manipulation , image display , contour plotting targetted run unix workstations supporting osf motif currently , color monitors supported since svlib collection widgets developed spirit osf motif user interface widget set , integrates motif widgets programmers using svlib widgets see interface design motif widgets fvs visualization software computational fluid dynamics \( cfd \) simulations fvs designed accept data generated simulations apply various visualization techniques present data graphically fvs accepts three dimensional multi block data recorded ncsa hdf format iti gov sg 192 122 132 130 pub svlib \( scientific visualization \) pu fvs directories contain demo binaries sun4 sgi cost us 200 academic us 300 non academic institutions \( items \) 're getting source licence contact miss lee member technical staff information technology institute national computer board building 71 , park drive singapore 0511 republic singapore tel \( 65 \) fax \( 65 \) email iti gov sg gvlware distribution bob interactive volume renderer sgi raz disk based movie player sgi icol motif color editor army high performance computing research center \( ahpcrc \) developing set tools work large time dependent 2d 3d data sets graphics visualization lab \( gvl \) using tools along side standard packages , sgi explorer utah raster toolkit , render 3d volumes create digital movies couple general purpose programs bundled package called gvlware gvlware , currently consisting bob , raz icol , available via ftp interesting program probably bob , interactive volume renderer sgi raz streams raster images disk sgi screen , enabling movies larger memory played icol color map editor works bob raz source pre built binaries irix 4 0 5 included acquire gvlware , anonymous ftp machine ftp arc umn edu file pub gvl tar z use gvlware mkdir gvl cd gvl gvl tar z tar xvf readme bob features motif interface , sgi gl rendering renders 64 cubed data set 0 1 1 0 seconds vgx alpha compositing maximum value rendering , perspective \( maximum value rendering personal iris \) data must brick bytes , regularly spaced grid animation , , subsampling , stereo raz features motif interface , sgi gl rendering loads files raw disk partition , streams screen \( requires empty disk partition set aside \) script interface available movie sequences stream memory , like ncsa ximage icol features motif interface easy create interpolated color maps key points rgb , hsv yuv color spaces , multiple file formats changes automatically bob raz tested sgi , sun , dec cray systems btw bob brick bytes icol interpolated color raz \? \( name \) please send comments gvlware ahpcrc umn edu software collection supported army research office contract number 89 c university minnesota army high performance computing research center imaging applications platform commercial package medical scientific visualization volume rendering , binary surface rendering , , image manipulation , cine sequencing , geometry text images provides measurement coordinate transform abilities provide hardcopy medical film printers , image database functionality medical \( ct mri etc \) scanners client server based provides object oriented interface runs high performance workstations takes full advantage parallelism available robust , efficient submitted fda approval use medical applications cost 20k oem developer , 10k educational developer run times starting 8900 going based quantity developer packages include two days training two people toronto available isg technologies 6509 airport road mississauga , ontario , canada , 1s7 \( 416 \) 672 2100 e mail rod gilchrist rod isgtec com 18 molecular visualization stuff based list cristy dupont com cristy , asked systems displaying molecular dynamics , md short flex public domain package written michael , scripps research institute , la jolla , ca flex stored compressed , archive \( 3 4mb \) scripps edu 137 131 152 27 , pub flex displays molecular models md trajectories \( macintosh \) searched archie , promising place sumex aim stanford edu \( info mac app , info mac art qt demo \) md display runs sgi machines call terry \( milton u washington edu \) package visualize molecules much uses xview toolkit call duncan dem scripps edu hal physics wayne edu writing visualization code right look md output \( specific format , easy alter subroutine \) pc 's program hooks gks friend access phigs x \( pex \) fortran bindings , would happy share evolving code \( free charge \) right display 65 atoms \( easy change \) , 100 time steps , drawing nearest neighbor bonds 2 defining nn radii works fast 10mhz 286 caesar cs montana edu project molecular visualization master 's thesis , using unix x11 motif generates simple point space filling model part motecc 91 look \( 156 148 7 12 \) , pub motecc motecc info txt information motecc 91 plain ascii format motecc info troff information motecc 91 troff format motecc form troff motecc 91 order form troff format motecc license troff motecc 91 license agreement troff format motecc info ps information motecc 91 postscript format motecc form ps motecc 91 order form postscript format motecc license ps motecc 91 license agreement postscript format i'm working molecular dynamic friend mine developed program display md run dynamically silicon graphics working improve , n't work x , using lib silicon gr much faster x 'll end 'll post news info get ftp \( free software \) v2 0 written david call daven wpi edu xmol x window system program uses osf motif display analysis molecular model data data several common file formats read written current formats include alchemy , ii , gaussian , , , pdb , 's xyz format \( designed simplicity translating formats \) xmol also allows conversion several formats xmol available ftp msc edu read pub xmol readme details insight ii technologies inc scarecrow program published j molecular graphics 10 \( 1992 \) 33 program analyze display , discover , trajectories program package contains also software generation probe surfaces , proton affinity surfaces molecular extended program works silicon graphics machines contact leif laaksonen leif laaksonen csc fi csc fi multi ns nih gov 157 98 8 8 pub multi 3 0 \( multi process molecular modeling suite \) mindtool runs sunview , requires fortran compiler sun 's libraries mindtool tool provided interactive graphic manipulation molecules atoms currently , 10 , 000 atoms may input available via anonymous ftp , chem yale edu , directory pub mindtool \( check archie sites 's far \) would also suggest looking least sgi 's applications directory contains many packages nfotis 19 gis \( geographical information systems software \) grass \( geographic resource analysis support system \) us army construction engineering research lab \( cerl \) popular geographic remote sensing image processing package many may think grass geographic information system rather image processing package , although reported significant image processing capabilities feature descriptions use grass 's public domain obtained internet free grass runs unix written c source code obtained anonymous ftp office grass integration compile source code machine , using scripts provided grass would recommend grass someone already workstation limited budget grass user friendly , compared macintosh software first review overview documentation indicates looks useful pixel functions packages plus good general purpose image enhancement routines \( fft \) kelly maurice vexcel corp boulder , co primary user grass gentleman used grass software developed multi spectral \( 238 bands \? \? \) volumetric rendering , full color , suns really effective interface vexcel corp currently contract map part venus convert magellan radar data contour maps call \( 303 \) 444 email care greg vexcel com 192 92 90 68 host configuration requirements willing run ux could install grass macintosh significant image analysis import capabilities satellite data grass public domain , run high end pc unix raster based , image processing capability , display vector data \( analysis must done raster environment \) used grass v 3 sun workstation found easy use best , course , data well represented raster \( grid cell \) form availability cerl 's office grass integration \( ogi \) maintains ftp server moon cecer army mil \( 129 229 20 254 \) mail regarding site addressed grass ftp admin moon cecer army mil location new canonical source grass software , well bug fixes , contributed sources , documentation , files ftp server also supports dynamic compression tar archiving files feature attraction server john grass tutorial manual still beta test stage , john requests people acquire willing review mail comments corrections ogi currently maintaining document , correspondence directed tang uark edu support listserv mailing lists list amber cecer army mil \( grass users application level questions , support concerns , miscellaneous questions , etc \) send subscribe commands request amber cecer army mil list amber cecer army mil \( grass programmers system level questions tips , tricks , techniques design implementation grass applications \) send subscribe commands request amber cecer army mil lists maintained office grass integration \( subset army corps engineers construction engineering research lab champaign , il \) ogi providing lists service community ogi cerl employees participate lists , make claim content veracity messages pass list questions , problems , comments , send e mail lists owner amber cecer army mil human respond microstation imager intergraph \( based huntsville alabama \) sells wide range gis software hardware microstation base graphics package imager sits top imager basically image processing package heavy gis remote sensing flavor feature description basic geometry manipulations flip , mirror , rotate , generalized affine rectification affine , 2nd , 3rd , 4th 5th order models well model \( warp image vector map another image \) rgb ihs ihs rgb conversion principal component analysis classification k means fourier forward , filtering reverse filters high pass , low pass , edge enhancing , median , generic complex histogram contrast control layer controller manages 64 images time user extract single bands 3 band image create color images combining various individual bands , etc package designed remote sensing application \( handle large images \) kinds software available gis applications host configuration requirements runs intergraph workstations \( unix machine similar sun \) though rumors \( always rumors \) software would ported pc possibly sun environment pci company called pci , inc , richmond hill , ontario , canada , makes array software utilities processing , manipulation , use remote sensing data eight ten different industry standard formats , , landsat , couple others whose titles forget software available versions ms dos , unix workstations \( among hp , sun , ibm \) , vms , quite possibly platforms use vms version pci software consists several classes groups packages utilities , grouped function operating common pci database disk file tape package set utility programs read various remote sensing industry tape formats , write formats , pci database file package use know much packages display data pci database one another several pci supported third party color displays , output numeric bitmap representation image data attached printer , e g epson type dot matrix graphics printer might interested mathematical operations package gram fourier analysis , equalization , user specified operations \( e g multiply channel 1 3 , add channel 2 , store channel 5 \) , god knows else 's lot n't n't use , ca n't say much buy packages particular application interest calls utility controlled one eight parameters , read common parameter file must \( vms anyway \) default directory utilities share parameters use parameter different purpose , get bit confusing setting series operations standard pci environment contains scripting language similar ibm pc basic , allows automate process setting parameters common , complicated , lengthy difficult series utility executions \( vms also invoke utilities independently dcl command procedure \) 's also optional programming library allows write compiled language programs interface \( read write \) pci data structures \( database file , parameter file \) pci software designed specifically remote sensing images , requires level operator expertise , reach level handle r images , figure ways handle things well instance , tape package offers utility reading multi band \( adobe photoshop macintosh calls raw \) data tape , number different interleave orders turns ideal manipulating graphic arts industry 's format , would probably \( n't tried \) handle targa , , however , know screw nth degree start 's worth noting pci database file designed contain raster \( image \) data , vectors \( map information entered via digitizing table \) , land use , manner information \( observe remote sensing image tape often contains manner information spectral bands , latitude , longitude , time , date , etc original satellite pass go pci database \) believe workstations built display used vax systems workstations pci supports couple specific third party display systems \( name gould seems come mind \) one personal workarounds display program would display directly pci database file q \( q bus 24 bit directcolor \) display subsystem pci software could overkill case seems designed high end applications users , e mac pc largely n't suffice \( although know gap getting smaller time \) 's probably coincidence pci located canada , country lot land resource management via remote sensing believe canadian government uses pci software work areas spam \( spectral analysis manager \) back 1985 jpl developed something called spam \( spectral analysis manager \) got fair amount use time designed airborne imaging spectrometer imagery \( byte data , 256 pixels across 512 lines 256 bands \) modified version since developed aviris \( airborne visual infrared imaging spectrometer \) uses much larger images spam none things \( rectification , classification , pc ihs transformations , filtering , contrast enhancement , overlays \) actually , limited filtering contrast enhancement \( stretching \) spam aimed spectral identification clustering original spam uses x sunview display aviris version may require vicar , executive based tae , may also require frame buffer refer people 're interested pcw requires x display map ii among mac gis systems , map ii distributed john wiley clrview clrview 3 dimensional visualization program designed exploit real time capabilities silicon graphics iris computers program designed provide core set tools aid visualization information cad gis sources supports integration many common data sources dxf , tin , dem , , arc info among others clrview obtained explorer dgp utoronto ca \( 128 100 1 129 \) directory pub sgi clrview contact rodney head design applications centre landscape research university toronto tel \( 416 \) 978 email rodney dgp utoronto ca end resource listing nick \( nikolaos \) fotis national technical univ athens , greece home 16 esperidon st , internet nfotis theseas ntua gr halandri , gr 152 32 uucp mcsun ! ariadne ! theseas ! nfotis athens , greece fax \( 30 1 \) 77 84 578
nfotis ntua gr \( nick c fotis \) subject \( 17 apr 93 \) computer graphics resource listing weekly part 1 3 lines reply nfotis theseas ntua gr \( nick \( nikolaos \) fotis \) organization national technical univ athens archive name graphics resources list part1 last modified 1993 04 17 computer graphics resource listing weekly posting part 1 3 last change 17 april 1993 many faqs , including listing , available archive site pit manager mit edu \( alias rtfm mit edu \) 18 172 1 27 directory pub usenet news answers name faq archived appears archive name line top article faq archived graphics resources list part 1 3 's mail server machine send e mail message mail server pit manager mit edu containing keyword help \( without quotes ! \) message body see many places listing see item 0 places find resource listing information items changed arranged subjects , order fir better article limit plan changing headers soon , careful ! resource listing keys sure remain subject line ! 0 places find resource listing 6 3d graphics editors public domain , free shareware systems 9 plotting packages 18 molecular visualization stuff i'm thinking making post bi weekly think \? \? \? lines got changed , ` ' character front added lines prepended ` ' removed lines removed use locate changes text \( c \) copyright 1992 , 1993 nikolaos c fotis copy freely file , provided keep copyright notice intact compiled nikolaos \( nick \) c fotis , e mail nfotis theseas ntua gr please contact updates , corrections , etc disclaimer guarantee accuracy document use risk mainly guide computer graphics software would suggest reading comp graphics faq image analysis stuff 's entitled \( date \) comp graphics frequently asked questions \( faq \) john grieggs grieggs jpl devvax jpl nasa gov poster official comp graphics faq included comments within ' ' ' ' nikolaos fotis contents resource listing part1 0 places find resource listing 1 archie 2 notes 3 computer graphics ftp site list , eric haines 4 mail servers graphics oriented bbses 5 ray tracing graphics related mailing lists 6 3d graphics editors public domain , free shareware systems b commercial systems 7 scene description languages 8 solids description formats part2 9 plotting packages 10 image analysis software image processing display part3 11 scene generators geographical data maps data files 12 3d scanners digitized 3d data 13 background imagery textures datafiles 14 introduction rendering algorithms ray tracing b z buffer \( depth buffer \) c others 15 find geometric data teapot \? b space shuttle \? 16 image annotation software 17 scientific visualization stuff 18 molecular visualization stuff 19 gis \( geographical information systems software \) future additions please send updates info ! 0 places find resource listing file crossposted comp graphics , comp answers news answers , ca n't locate comp graphics , 're advised search comp answers news answers \( latter groups usually archived site contact sysadmin info \) 3 articles posted comp graphics 3 4 times month kept many places \( see \) many faqs , including one , available archive site pit manager mit edu \( alias rtfm mit edu \) 18 172 1 27 directory pub usenet news answers name faq archived appears archive name line top article faq archived graphics resources list part 1 3 's mail server machine send e mail message mail server pit manager mit edu containing help subject field inria graphlib mail server mirrors posting \( see subject 4 mail servers \) resource listing wais machine eas asu edu \( port 8000 \) name graphics resources list 's got digest type line every numbered item purposes indexing another place monitors listing files info contact robert e maas rem btr com yet another place search faqs general switch \( swiss academic research network \) system switzerland interactive telnet nic switch ch 130 59 1 40 , login info move info service usenet periodic postings directory search file typing word look may read faq faqs directory , decide fetch one following methods ftp login nic switch ch 130 59 1 40 user anonymous enter internet style address prompted password cd info service usenet periodic postings mail send e mail rfc 822 archive server nic switch ch x 400 archive server ou nic switch prmd switch admd c ch enter 'help' receive instructions information required subject header line 1 archie archie service system locate ftp places requested files 's appreciated use archie asking help newsgroups archie servers archie au 139 130 4 6 \( aussie nz \) archie funet fi 128 214 6 100 \( finland \) archie th darmstadt de 130 83 128 111 \( ger \) cs huji ac il 132 65 6 5 \( israel \) archie kyoto u ac jp 130 54 20 1 \( japan \) archie ac kr 163 239 1 11 \( korea \) archie ncu edu tw telnet 140 115 19 24 \( \) archie doc ic ac uk 146 169 3 7 \( uk ireland \) archie sura net 128 167 254 179 \( usa md \) archie unl edu \( password \) \( usa ne \) archie ans net 147 225 1 2 \( usa ny \) archie rutgers edu 128 6 18 15 \( usa nj \) archie nz 130 195 9 4 \( new zealand \) connect archie server telnet type archie username get help type 'help' get , clients call archie without burden telnet session x11 r5 contrib tape , comp sources misc , vol 27 get information use archie via e mail , send mail subject help archie account sites \( note janet pss users united kingdom archie site accessible janet host doc ic ac uk connect specify archie host name archie username \) 2 notes \( excerpted faq article \) please post mail messages saying ca n't ftp , could someone mail \? number automated mail servers send things like response message number sites archive usenet sources newsgroups make available via email query system send message automated server saying something like send comp sources unix fbm , hours days later get file mail 3 computer graphics ftp site list , eric haines computer graphics related ftp sites \( \) , 26 03 93 compiled eric haines , erich eye com nick fotis , nfotis theseas ntua gr ray tracers rayshade great ray tracer workstations , also pc , mac amiga pov son successor dkb trace , written \( questions call drew wells 1244 compuserve com dave buck david buck carleton ca \) art ray tracer good range surface types , part vort package dkbtrace another good ray tracer , reports pcs , mac ii , amiga , unix , vms \( last two x11 previewer \) , etc rtrace portugese ray tracer , patches , csg , 3d text , etc etc ms dos version use djgpp dos extender \( go32 \) exists also , mac port shareware raytracer pcs binary \( 286 287 \) author stephen coy \( coy ssc vax boeing com \) 386 387 \( source \) version available registered users \( us 50 \) direct author ray4 steve hollasch 's 4 dimensional ray tracer renders , , , \( 's separate real time wireframe viewer written gl called wire4 \) mtv , qrt , dbw yet ray tracers , interesting features distributed parallel raytracers xdart distributed ray tracer runs x11 server binaries work decstations , sparcs , hp snakes \( series \) next clients distributed binaries c source inetray network version rayshade 4 0 needs sun rpc 4 0 newer contact andreas \( ant ips id ethz ch \) prt , vm pray parallel ray tracers volume renderers cornell 's volume renderer , devine warren \( fortran \) radiosity \( diffuse lighting \) renderers radiance ray tracer w radiosity effects , greg ward excellent shading models physically based lighting simulation unix x based , though ported amiga pc \( 386 \) india indian radiosity package based radiance sgi rad interactive radiosity package runs sgi machines spaceball includes house database author guy epfl ch rad simple public domain radiosity package c solution run stand alone unix box , walk requires sgi 4d author bernard kwok g kwok cs yorku ca renderers raytracers , graphics libraries sipp scan line z buffer phong shading renderer uses shadow buffer algorithm tcl sipp tcl command interface sipp rendering program tcl sipp set tcl commands used programmed sipp without write compile c code commands used specify surfaces , objects , scenes rendering options renders either ppm format utah raster toolkit rle format photo widget tk based x11 applications vogle graphics learning environment \( device portable \) vogl sgi gl like library based vogle rend386 fast polygon renderer intel version 2 's , rather real time renderer dr dobb 's journal pc renderer source code , budget texture mapping , wireframe viewers vision 3d mac modeler , output radiance rayshade files irit csg solid modeler , support surfaces x3d wireframe viewer x11 3 wireframe graphics toolkit , c source , objects , stuff look major pc archives like wuarchive one file zip pv3d shareware front end modeler povray , still beta test french docs , price registering 250 french save disabled extra utilities , dxf files registered version geometric viewers salem gl based package et al exploring mathematical structures geomview gl based package looking interactively manipulating 3d objects , geometry center minnesota xyz \( experimental geometry zurich \) workbench geometric computation macintosh computers wire4 gl wireframe previewer steve hollasch 's ray4 \( see \) data formats data sets ray tracing spd set procedural databases testing ray tracers nff simplistic file format used spd another file format p3d file format tddd imagine \( 3d modeler \) format , converters rayshade , nff , , etc also includes nice postscript object great models ttdddlib converts tddd ttddd , , nff , rayshade 4 0 , imagine , vort 3d objects also outputs framemaker mif files isometric views postscript registered users get tex pk font converter surfaces generator glenn lewis intel com note ttdddlib also known chvrtd chapel hill volume rendering test datasets , includes volume sets two heads , brain , knee , electron density maps rna others written material rendering rt news collections articles ray tracing rt bib references articles ray tracing refer format rad bib references articles radiosity \( global illumination \) speer rt bib rick speer 's cross referenced rt bib , postscript rt abstracts collection tom wilson abstracts many rt articles paper bank project various technical papers electronic form contact juhana kouhia jk87377 cs tut fi online bibliography project acm siggraph online bibliography project database 15 , 000 unique computer graphics computational geometry references bibtex format , available computer graphics community research educational resource database located siggraph org users may download bibtex files via ftp peruse offline , telnet siggraph org log biblio interactively search database entries interest , keyword people without internet access , 's also e mail server send mail archive server siggraph org subject body message include message send followed topic wish good place start command send index give date list available information additions corrections suggestions may directed admin , siggraph org image manipulation libraries utah raster toolkit nice image manipulation tools pbmplus great package image conversion manipulation libtiff library reading writing tiff images imagemagick x11 package display interactive manipulation images uses format \( \) , includes converters xv x based image display , manipulation , format converter xloadimage , xli displays various formats x11 screen khoros huge , excellent system image processing , visual programming interface much much uses x windows fbm another set image manipulation tools , somewhat old img image manipulation , displays x11 screen , bit old plays fli animation x11 plays resolution fli along gif 's \( including gif89a animation extensions \) , dl 's amiga iff animations \( 3 , 5 , j , l \) iff pictures \( including ham , color cycling \) sdsc sdsc image tools package \( san diego supercomputing center \) image manipulation conversion clrpaint 24 bit paint program sgi 24bit workstations 8bit libraries code graphics graphics gems , ii , iii code ever useful books spline patch tar z spline patch ray intersection routines sean graves kaleido computation 3d display uniform polyhedra mirrored wuarchive package computes \( displays \) properties 75 polyhedra author dr zvi , e mail rl gauss technion ac il \( \) means site official distributor , date north america \( please look things continent first \) wuarchive wustl edu 128 252 135 4 graphics graphics get contents file graphics graphics objects tddd ttddd objects converters , mirrors unix c graphics rayshade ray tracer , mtv ray tracer , vort ray tracer , fbm , pbmplus , , utah raster toolkit mirrors msdos graphics dkb ray tracer , fli demos pub rad tar z sgi rad , graphics graphics radiosity radiance indian radiosity package msdos zip version 21 , fast texture mapping 's lots , including , graphics gems ii code , , rtn , radiance , nff , sipp , spline patch intersection routines , textbook errata , source code roy hall 's book illumination color computer generated imagery , etc graphics graphics packages kaleido kaleido george kyriazis kyriazis turing cs rpi edu princeton edu 128 112 128 1 pub graphics \( note capital g \) rayshade 4 0 ray tracer \( separate 387 executable \) , color quantization code , spd , rt news , wilson 's rt abstracts , rt bib , utah raster toolkit , newer fbm , graphics gems , ii iii code pub graphics directory salem stuff craig kolb cek princeton edu replaces weedeater math yale edu note capital g pub graphics 's trouble princeton 's incoming area , upload rayshade specific stuff weedeater math yale edu 128 36 23 17 alfred ccs carleton ca 134 117 1 1 pub dkbtrace dkb ray tracer , pub pov ray pov 0 compuserve group ray tracer \( pov \) david buck david buck carleton ca avalon chinalake navy mil 129 131 31 11 3d objects \( multiple formats \) , utilities , file format documents site created 3d object repository net francisco x dejesus dejesus archimedes chinalake navy mil omicron cs unc edu 152 2 128 159 pub softlab chvrtd chapel hill volume rendering test datasets ftp mv com 192 80 84 1 official ftp repository essex ac uk 155 245 115 161 pilot european image processing archive directory synth something like , image synthesis packages adrian clarke alien essex ac uk berkeley edu 128 32 142 237 tcl extensions 0b tar z tcl sipp mark markd grizzly com markd neosoft com acs cps msu edu 35 8 56 90 pub sass x window fonts converter rayshade 3 0 polygons , rayshade animation tool \( \) ron sass sass cps msu edu hobbes lbl gov 128 3 12 38 radiance ray trace radiosity package greg ward lbl gov geom umn edu 128 101 25 31 pub geomview geomview contact \( geomview \) software geom umn edu ftp arc umn edu 137 66 130 11 pub gvl tar z latest version bob , icol raz source , manual , man pages , binaries irix 4 0 5 included \( bob real time volume renderer \) pub contains also many volume datasets ken chin ken ahpcrc umn edu ftp kpc com 144 52 120 9 pub graphics steve hollasch 's thesis , pub graphics ray4 ray4 , pub graphics wire4 wire4 pub mirror avalon mirror avalon 's 3d objects repository steve hollasch hollasch kpc com lerc nasa gov 139 88 54 33 programs hollasch 4d ray4 , sgi explorer modules postscript manual , etc zamenhof cs rice edu 128 42 1 75 pub graphics formats various electronic documents many object image formats mark hall foo cs rice edu apparently longer maintaining , see ftp ncsa uiuc edu rascal ics utexas edu 128 83 144 1 misc mac vision 3d facet based modeller , output rayshade radiance files ftp ncsa uiuc edu 141 142 20 50 misc file formats graphics formats contains various image object format descriptions many tools various directories , e g sgi alpha shape 1 0 tar z 3d alpha shape visualizer \( sgi machines \) , sgi 0 z interactive visualization analysis 3d geometrical structures koziol koziol ncsa uiuc edu noao edu 140 252 1 1 iraf iraf astronomy package ftp ipl rpi edu 128 113 14 50 sigma erich spd images haines thesis images pub images various 24 8 bit image stills sequences kevin martin sigma ipl rpi edu ftp psc edu 128 182 66 148 pub p3d p3d 2 0 tar p3d scene language renderers joel psc edu ftp ee lbl gov 128 3 254 68 pbmplus tar z , rayshade data files jef poskanzer jef ace ee lbl gov george lbl gov 128 3 196 93 pub ccs lib ccs tar z ccs \( complex conversion system \) , standard software interface image processing hanauma stanford edu 36 51 0 16 pub graphics comp graphics best comp graphics \( extensive \) , ray tracers dbw , mtv , qrt , joe joe hanauma stanford edu ftp uu net 192 48 96 2 graphics irit , rt news back issues \( complete \) , nurbs models , graphics related material graphics jpeg jpegsrc v \? tar z independent jpeg group package reading writing jpeg files freebie engin umich edu 141 212 68 23 utah raster toolkit , spencer thomas thomas eecs umich edu export lcs mit edu 18 24 0 12 contrib pbmplus , image magick , xloadimage , xli , xv , img , lots pub mit demos gpc ncga graphics performance characterization \( gpc \) suite life rpi edu 128 113 10 2 pub ray kyriazis ray tracer george kyriazis kyriazis turing cs rpi edu cs utah edu 128 110 4 21 pub utah raster toolkit , nurbs databases jamie painter jamie cs utah edu gatekeeper dec com 16 1 0 2 pub dec tar z models , also gpc benchmark files \( planned , checked \) rost rost kpc com hubcap clemson edu 130 127 8 1 pub amiga incoming imagine stuff amiga imagine turbo silver ray tracers pub amiga ttdddlib ttdddlib pub amiga incoming imagine objects many objects glenn lewis intel com pprg eece unm edu 129 24 24 10 pub khoros khoros image processing package \( huge , great \) danielle danielle bullwinkle unm edu expo lcs mit edu 18 30 0 212 contrib pbmplus portable bitmap package , bitmap collection , raveling img , xloadimage jef poskanzer jef well sf ca us venera isi edu 128 9 0 32 pub img tar z img tar z image manipulation , pub images rgb separation photos paul raveling raveling venera isi edu ucsd edu 128 54 16 1 graphics utah rle toolkit , pbmplus , fbm , databases , mtv , dbw ray tracers , world map , stuff updated much recently engr wisc edu 128 104 52 10 pub x3d 2 2 tar z x3d pub xdart 1 1 xdart mark spy engr wisc edu sgi com 192 48 153 1 graphics tiff tiff 6 0 spec libtiff software pics also much sgi gl related stuff \( e g opengl manuals \) sam leffler sam sgi com berkeley edu libtiff stuff surya waterloo edu 129 97 129 72 graphics fbm , ray tracers ftp sdsc edu 132 249 20 22 sdsc ftp brl mil 128 63 16 158 brl cad information get brl cad package ray tracer images various test images texture library also begun lee butler butler brl mil cicero cs umass edu 128 119 40 189 texture temp 512x512 grayscale textures , julien flack julien scs leeds ac uk karazm math uh edu 129 7 7 6 pub graphics shar 12 90 z wilson 's rt abstracts , vm pray j eric townsend jet karazm math uh edu jet nas nasa gov ftp pitt edu 130 49 253 1 users images 24 bit image archive \( small \) james crawford gl pitt edu ftp tc cornell edu 128 84 201 1 pub vis sunee waterloo edu 129 97 50 50 pub raytracers vivid , rend386 sunee uwaterloo ca archive umich edu 141 211 164 153 msdos graphics pc graphics stuff msdos graphics raytrace apple apple com 130 43 2 2 \? pub prt research att com 192 20 225 2 netlib graphics spd package , polyhedra polyhedra databases \( n't ftp , use netlib automatic mail uucp research ! netlib , internet netlib ornl gov send one line message send index info , send haines graphics get spd \) siggraph org 128 248 245 250 siggraph archive site publications online bibliography project , conference proceedings various electronic formats \( papers , panels \) , siggraph video review information order forms stuff various directories automatic mailer archive server siggraph org \( send index \) ftp cs unc edu 128 109 136 159 pub reaction diffusion greg turk 's work reaction diffusion textures , x windows code \( siggraph '91 \) avs ncsc org 128 109 178 23 ftp volume datasets boston workshop volume visualization '92 site also international avs center terry ncsc org uvacs cs virginia edu 128 143 8 100 pub suit demo sparc , dec , etc suit \( simple user interface toolkit \) finger suit uvacs cs virginia edu get detailed instructions nexus yorku ca 130 63 9 66 pub reports radiosity code tar z rad pub reports radiosity thesis ps z rad msc thesis site changed ftp yorku ca near future milton u washington edu 128 95 136 1 ftp public veos veos virtual reality distributed applications prototyping environment unix veos software support veos support washington edu fly fly ! 3d visualization software demo package built fly various datasets near real time binaries many platforms also , much virtual reality stuff umich edu 141 211 184 2 x 3d files \( lcd glass shutter amiga computers great vr stuff ! \) acs syr edu 128 230 24 1 various stereo pair images closed \( sunsite unc edu 152 2 22 81 pub academic computer science virtual reality final copy acs syr edu archive ceased exist contains powerglove code , vr papers , 3d images irc research material jonathan sunsite unc edu archive cis ohio state edu 128 146 8 52 pub code siggraph '92 course 23 \( procedural modeling rendering techniques \) dr david ebert ebert cis ohio state edu lyapunov ucsd edu 132 239 86 10 machine considered repository programs nonlinear dynamics , signal processing , related subjects \( fractals , course ! \) matt mbk ucsd edu cod nosc mil 128 49 16 5 pub grid ps , tex , ascii short survey methods interpolate contour data ics uci edu 128 195 1 1 honig various stereo pair images , movie c movie x display \( 8 bit mono \) digital subtraction taurus cs nps navy mil 131 120 1 13 pub dabro cyberware demo tar z human head data pioneer unm edu 129 24 9 217 pub texture maps hans du buf 's grayscale test textures \( aerial , textures , synthetic \) space planetary image repository provides access 150 cd roms data images \( 3 line time \) pub info beginner info start browsing colby opus pioneer unm edu cs brown edu 128 148 33 66 srgp sphigs info srgp sphigs mail cs brown edu pdb pdb bnl gov 130 199 144 1 data various organic molecules , bonds different atoms , etc atomic coordinates \( load stuff \) contained ent files , actual atomic seem missing could convert data pov , rayshade , etc bio ns ca 142 2 20 2 pub art renoir paintings , 's pictures , etc ee umanitoba ca sample set images cd rom \( images atomic landscapes , advanced semiconductors , experimental surface chemistry among others \) contact ee umanitoba ca explorer dgp toronto edu 128 100 1 129 pub sgi clrpaint clrpaint pub sgi clrview clrview , tool aids visualization gis datasets may formats like dxf , dem , arc info , etc ames arc nasa gov 128 102 18 3 pub space cdrom images magellan viking missions etc get pub space index first pub spacelink spacelink service data \( see \) e mail server available send mail archive server ames arc nasa gov \( ames ! archive server \) subject help send space index \( without quotes ! \) peter yee yee ames arc nasa gov pubinfo jpl nasa gov 128 149 6 2 images , data , etc jpl missions modem access \( 818 \) 354 1333 \( parity , 8 data bits , 1 stop bit \) jplpost jpl nasa gov phone \( 818 \) 354 spacelink msfc nasa gov 128 158 13 250 \( passwd guest \) space graphics gif images nasa 's planetary probes hubble telescope main function support teachers \( telnet also site \) dial access \( 205 \) 895 0028 \( 300 1200 2400 9600 \( v 32 \) baud , 8 bits , parity , 1 stop bit \) stsci edu 130 167 1 2 hubble space telescope stuff \( images data \) read readme first ! pete reppert reppert stsci edu chris stsci edu pit manager mit edu 18 172 1 27 pub usenet news answers land faqs graphics pictures directories particular interest also available mail server pit manager mit edu sending mail message containing help uucp archive avatar rt news back issues details , write avatar avatar com europe nic funet fi 128 214 6 100 pub sci papers paper bank project , including pete shirley 's entire thesis \( pics \) , wilson 's rt abstracts , pub misc cia cia world data bank , comp graphics research archive , india , much , much juhana kouhia jk87377 cs tut fi epfl ch 128 178 62 2 radiance good european sites , n't carry add ons available radiance isy liu se 130 236 1 3 pub sipp sipp 3 0 tar z sipp scan line z buffer phong shading renderer jonas jonas isy liu se irisa fr 131 254 2 3 vm pray ray tracer , spd , nff many non spd nff format scenes , rayshade data files irisa irisa fr may disappeared phoenix oulu fi 130 231 240 17 fli animation files \( pc vga \) also big \( 640 480 \) demos americans check wuarchive first animations come jari hole phoenix oulu fi jyu fi 128 214 7 5 pub graphics ray traces many ray tracers , including vm pray , dbw , dkb , mtv , qrt , rayshade , rt news , nff files jari jyu fi garbo uwasa fi 128 214 87 1 much pc stuff , etc , pc source contour f fortran program contour scattered data using linear triangle based interpolation asterix inescn pt 192 35 246 17 pub rtrace rtrace tar z \( nff utilities rtrace \) , medical data \( cat , etc \) converters nff , autocad nff code , autocad 11 scn \( rtrace 's language \) converter goodies antonio costa \( acc asterix inescn pt \) vega hut fi 128 214 3 82 graphics rtn archive , ray tracers \( mtv , qrt , others \) , nff , models shut months ago , check nic funet fi nfotis sun4nl nl 192 16 202 2 pub graphics raytrace dbw , mtv , etc unix hensa ac uk misc unix ralcgm ralcgm tar z cgm viewer converter 's e mail server also mail archive unix hensa ac uk message body send misc unix ralcgm ralcgm tar z mt se 130 240 0 25 graphics raytracing prt , others , doc wilson 's rt abstracts , vivid ftp fu berlin de 130 20 225 2 pub unix graphics 0 inputs aq tar z rayshade americans check princeton edu first \) math fu berlin de ethz ch 129 132 17 1 pub inetray inetray sun rpc 4 0 code andreas ant ips id ethz ch id dk 129 142 65 24 pub amiga graphics radiance amiga port radiance 2 0 per id dk ftp informatik uni oldenburg de 134 106 1 9 pov raytracer mirrored wuarchive , many goods pov pub dkbtrace incoming polyray polyray raytracer pub dkbtrace incoming pv3d pv3d ftp uni kl de 131 246 9 95 pub amiga raytracing imagine mirror hubcap imagine files neptune inf ethz ch 129 132 101 33 xyz xyz peter inf ethz ch unibe ch 130 92 64 10 graphics l system interpreter christoph iam unibe ch amiga physik unizh ch 130 60 80 80 amiga gfx graphics stuff amiga computer stesis hq eso org 134 171 8 100 line access huge astronomical database \( login starcat passwd \) decnet stesis \( 's space telescope european coordination facility \) benoit eso org , phone 49 89 320 06 433 middle east gauss technion ac il 132 68 112 60 kaleida australia gondwana ecr mu oz au 128 250 70 62 pub vort \( art \) ray tracer , vogle , wilson 's ray tracing abstracts , pub contrib \( art scenes italy \) , pub images haines haines thesis images , graphics gems code , spd , nff databases , nff previewers , plus 8 24bit images lots stuff pub rad tar z sgi rad bernie kirby bernie ecr mu oz au munnari oz au 128 250 1 21 pub graphics vort tar z vort \( art \) 2 1 csg algebraic surface ray tracer , vogle , pub dbw , pbmplus graphics room tar z \( art scenes italy \) david hook munnari oz au marsh cs curtin edu au 134 7 1 1 pub graphics bibliography facial animation , pub graphics bibliography morph , pub graphics bibliography ui stuff facial animation , morphing user interfaces pub fascia fred parke 's fascia program valerie hall val cs curtin edu au asia ccu1 aukland ac nz 130 216 1 5 ftp mac architec vision 3d facet based modeller , output rayshade files many neat things macs paul bourke pdbourke ccu1 aukland ac nz sony co jp 133 138 199 1 sgi facial animation steve franks site facial animation steve franks stevef csl sony co jp stevef cs umr edu 4 mail servers graphics oriented bbses please check first ftp places , archie 's help n't overuse mail servers troubles wrong return addresses many mail servers command like path valid return e mail address get hint sending back stuff dec 's ftpmail send one line message ftpmail decwrl dec com without subject field , line containing word 'help' get back message detailing relevant procedures must follow order get files want note reply answer command mailer work message mail receive ftpmail send requests ftpmail , send original mail message , reply complaints sent ftpmail request uucp gw 2 pa dec com address rather postmaster , since decwrl 's postmaster responsible fixing ftpmail problems bitftp bitnet sites , 's bitftp pucc send one line 'help' message address info lightwave 3d mail based file server mail based file server 3d objects , 24bit jpeg images , gif images image maps online internet mail access server official archive site lightwave 3d mail list contains many pd shareware graphics utilities several computer platforms including amiga , atari , ibm macintosh server resides bbs called graphics bbs bbs operational 24 hours day 7 days week phone number 1 908 469 0049 upgraded modem hayes ultra 144 v 32bis v 42bis , speeds 300bps 38 , would like submit objects , scenes images server , please pack , uuencode mail files address server bobsbox rent com information obtaining files server send mail message address file server graphics rent com following body message help dir help file describing use server complete directory listing sent via mail includes cyberware head ttddd format ! check , ca n't use ftp ! nfotis inria graphlib pierre launched inria graphlib mail server months ago echo help mail inria graphlib inria fr give quick summary inria graphlib contains browse among files echo send contents mail inria graphlib inria fr return extended summary example echo send misc mail inria graphlib inria fr return computer graphics resource listing mirrored comp graphics bbses many bbses store datafiles , etc etc , guide beyond scope listing \( resources author ! \) point internet mail accessible bbses carry interesting stuff , send info ! studio amiga 3d modelling ray tracing specific bbs , \( 817 \) 467 24 hours , 105 meg online jeff walkup well sf ca us castle 415 355 \( 14 4k v 32bis v 42 v 42bis mnp \) \( , dang close san francisco , california , usa \) new user password tao j base 2 castle g fx , anim , video , 3d g , sig op , bob lindabury operates bbs \( see entry graphics bbs \) 'you call ray tracing related bbs chicago suburbs \( 708 358 \) \( 708 358 \) digital pixel \( sysop mark ng descartes waterloo edu \) based toronto , ontario , canada phone \( 416 \) 298 storage space 330 megs modem type 14 4k baud , 16 8k \( zyxel \) , v32bis , v32 , mnp 5 access fee none \( free \) system supported dos , os 2 , amiga , mac netmail currently echo mail topics raytracing , fractals , graphics programming , cad , comp graphics related david ic sunysb edu amiga graphics bbs \( 516 \) 473 long island , new york , running 24 hours 14 4k v 32bis , 157 megs line also subscribe 9 mailing lists , 5 originate bbs , 3 added soon include lightwave , imagine , real 3d \( ray tracing \) database files include imagine 3d objects , 3d renderings , scalable fonts , music modules , sound samples , demos , animations , utilities , text databases , pending lightwave 3d objects graphics alternative graphics alternative el , ca , running 24 hours day 14 4k hst v 32bis , online 1300 user base tga runs two nodes , node 1 \( 510 \) 524 public access includes free 90 day trial subscription tga west coast host , cad graphics network , supporting nodes across continental u , alaska , new zealand , australia , france uk tga 's file database includes ms dos executables pov , vivid , rtrace , rayshade , polyray , others tga also numerous graphics utilities , viewers , conversion utilities registered vivid users also download latest vivid code special vivid conference scott access digex com intersection bbs , 410 250 bbs dedicated supporting 3d system provided free charge , anyway users given full access first call features usenet news internet mail , fidonet echo 's netmail , 200 megs online , v 32bis v 42bis modem platforms interest amiga , macintosh , ms dos , unix workstations \( sun , sgi , etc \) , atari st robots gsfc nasa gov pi square bbs \( 301 \) 725 maryland supports raytracers pov vivid bbs runs 486 33mhz , hard drive cd rom runs 1200 2400bps \( change soon \) topics graphics programming , animation , raytracing , programming \( general \) lynn delphi com design 's graphic connection \( 503 \) 591 portland , oregon v 32 v 42bis bbs , aside carrying typical bbs services like message bases \( topic specific \) files \( cad graphics related hundreds megabytes \) , also offers material texture files full color , tiling , photo realistic images samples available first time callers bbs subscription system although callers 2 hours must subscribe , several subscription rates available people interested materials subscribe library addition basic subscription rate , use purchased time download whichever materials wish 5 ray tracing graphics related mailing lists imagine modeling animation system amiga send subscription requests imagine request email sp paramax com send material imagine email sp paramax com \( dave substituted steve worley maintenance mailing list \) please note unisys com address longer valid ! ! ! lightwave \( amiga 's part newtek 's video toaster \) send subscription requests lightwave request bobsbox rent com send material lightwave bobsbox rent com \( bob lindabury \) toaster send subscription requests listserv karazm math uh edu body subscribe toaster list real 3d another modeling animation system amiga subscribe , send mail containing body subscribe l full name listserv gu uwa edu au rayshade send subscription requests rayshade request cs princeton edu send material rayshade users cs princeton edu \( craig kolb \) alladin 4d amiga send subscription requests subscribe linet org body message write alladin 4d username domain radiance greg ward , author , sends registered \( via e mail \) users digests , notes fixes , updates , etc address lbl gov rend386 send subscription requests rend386 request sunee waterloo edu send material rend386 sunee waterloo edu pov ray dkb raytracers subscribe , send mail containing body subscribe dkb l full name listserv trearn bitnet send material dkb l trearn bitnet mailing list massively parallel rendering send subscription requests mp render request icase edu send material mp render icase edu 6 3d graphics editors public domain , free shareware systems vision 3d mac based program written paul bourke \( pdbourke ccu1 aukland ac nz \) program used generate models directly rayshade radiance file formats \( polygons \) 's shareware listed ftp list brl solid modeling system environments including sgi x11 csg nurbs , plus support non manifold geometry whatever get free via ftp signing returning relevant license , found ftp brl mil uses ray tracing engineering analyses contact ms moyer \( 410 \) 273 tel \( 410 \) 272 fax cad dist brl mil e mail snail mail brl cad distribution aberdeen satellite office 1003 old philadelphia road , suite 103 aberdeen md usa irit constructive solid geometry \( csg \) modeling program pc x11 includes surface support free see ftp list find solid modeling program pc written turbo pascal 6 0 ken van camp available simtel , pd1 msdos directory cmu , namely fritz \( elg cmu edu \) 's based non manifold topology ask info , n't know give away xyz2 xyz2 interactive 3 editor builder written dale p create objects , , dkb raytracer packages xyz2 free found , example , simtel20 msdos zip \( dos \? \? \) 3dmod 's msdos program check erc clarkson edu 128 153 28 12 , pub msdos graphics 3dmod undocumented file format \( 3dmod \( c \) 1991 micah silverman , 25 ave , , new york , tel 315 265 shareware , msdos cad zip simtel20 undocumented file format \( vertex \( amiga \) shareware , send 40 us \( check money order \) art machine , sterling heights , mi usa addition standard file formats , including lightwave , imagine , , turbo silver , geo wavefront , release offers 3d professional rayshade support \( rayshade supported primitive triangle , easily include output rayshade scripts \) latest demo , version 1 62 , available fred fish 727 information , contact author , alex , mi org , phone \( 313 \) 939 icoons \( amiga \) 's spline based object modeller \( icoons interactive coons path editor \) amiga physik unizh ch \( gfx 3d 0 \) 's free \( gnu licence \) requires fpu program look feel cross journeyman imagine , generates objects ttddd format possible load journeyman objects icoons , program used convert objects imagine format author e compel dk phone 45 36 72 33 00 , fax 45 36 72 43 00 's also fred fish disk series n 775 nfotis 3d ver 1 1 \( shareware \? \) 's wsmr simtel20 army mil oak oakland edu zip \( pcs \) menu layout file file handling \( load , save , import , xport \) draw draw 2d objects \( line , circle , box \) 3d draw 3d objects \( mesh , sphere , block \) edit editing features \( copy , move \) surface modify objects \( revolve , , sweep \) image image zooming features \( update , window , half \) option global defaults \( grid , , axis \) plot print drawing picture \( go , image \) render shade objects \( frame , lighting , tune \) layer layer options \( select active layer , set colors \) runs windows 3 1 , outputs pov files demo found wuarchive wustl edu mirrors win3 demo zip author michael gibson stein u washington edu b commercial systems alpha 1 spline based modeling program written university utah features splines trimmed nurbs support boolean operations sweeps , bending , warping , flattening etc groups objects , transformations extensible object types applications include nc , animation utilities , , fem analysis , etc rendering subsystem , support animations support following platforms hp 300 800 's \( x11r4 , hp ux 6 5 \) , sgi 4d pi machines \( x11r4 gl , irix 3 3 1 \) , sun sparcstation \( x11r4 , sunos 4 1 1 \) licensing distribution handled egs glenn , president engineering geometry systems 275 east south temple , suite 305 salt lake city , ut \( 801 \) 575 cs utah edu educational pricing charge 675 per platform may run system many different workstations type wish platform also 250 licensing fee portable standard lisp \( psl \) bundled system need obtain additional license university utah psl following address professor robert kessler computer science department university utah salt lake city , utah egs handle licensing psl u institutions 300 usd nominal fee nfotis vertigo educational institution program package used industrial design , architectural , scientific visualization , educational , broadcast , imaging post production fields 'll quoting letter sent nfotis donate fully configured vertigo 3d graphics software worth 29 , per package qualified educational institutions licencing number silicon graphics personal iris power series workstations use iris indigo station , also licence vertigo revolution software \( worth 12 , \) interested participating program please send letter mail fax \( 604 684 \) institution 's letterhead briefly outlining potential uses vertigo together following information 1 unix version 2 model number sgi systems 3 peripheral devices 4 third party software participants asked contribute per institution cover costs manual , administration , shipping recommend vertigo users subscribe technical support services annual fee receive technical assistance support hotline , bug fixes , software upgrades manual updates educational institution waive 750 administration fee support purchased annual support fee 2 , 500 plus following cost additional machines number machines 2 20 20 additional cost per machine 700 600 's also 5 day training program nfotis contact vertigo technology inc suite 1010 1030 west georgia st vancouver , bc canada , phone 604 684 2113 fax 604 684 anyone know offers , alias , , wavefront , etc \? \? \? would interesting part ! ! nfotis 2 basically , 's solid modeling kernel top build application \( \) available license cornell programmable automation cornell university 106 engineering theory center ithaca , ny 14853 license fees low educational institutions gov't agencies internal commercial licenses dissemination licenses available information packet , write address , send address marisa cpa tn cornell edu \( richard marisa \) spatial technology 's solid modelling kernel callable c heard many universities got free copies company person contact regarding academic institutions scott owens , e mail spatial com address spatial technology , inc st , bldg boulder , co 80301 phone \( 303 \) 449 , fax \( 303 \) 449 movie byu cquel byu basically understanding , fem pre post system 's fairly old today , still serves people mech eng depts 's superseded cquel byu \( pronounced sequel \) 's complete modelling , animation visualization package runs usual workstation environments \( sun , dec , hp , sgi , ibm rs6000 , others \) get demo version \( 30 days trial period \) either sending 20 usd address blank tape costs 1 , 500 full run time licence contact engineering computer graphics lab 368 clyde building , brigham young univ provo , ut 84602 phone 801 378 e mail cquel byu edu soon add stuff get reply fax 's volume renderer marketed inc \( fairfield , iowa phone 515 472 \) , running pcs 386 fpu least call info 3d volume renderer windows features include direct ray traced volume rendering , color alpha mapping , gradient lighting , animation , reflections shadows runs pc \( 386 higher \) least 8 bit video card \( svga fine \) windows 3 x costs 495 contact jaguar software inc 573 main st , suite 9b winchester , \( 617 \) 729 world std com \( john w \) 7 scene description languages nff neutral file format , eric haines simple , procedural database generators spd package , many objects floating various ftp sites 's also previewer written hp starbase e haines also 's one written vogle , use devices vogle output \( check sites carrying vogle , like gondwana ecr mu oz au \) object file format , dec 's randy rost \( rost kpc com \) object archive server seems future version , 'll remove ref nfotis available also mail server obtain help using service , send message subject line containing word help null message body object archive server decwrl dec com ftp places get , see relevant place 's previewer sgi 4d machines , called preview godzilla cgl rmit oz au previewers xview sunview , also gondwana tddd 's library 3d objects translators , nff , rayshade , imagine vort objects edited copy announcement follows \( raytracing news , v4 , 3 \) new library 3d objects available via ftp , steve worley \( worley cup portal com \) assembled set 150 3d objects binary format called tddd objects range human figures airplanes , semi trucks lampposts objects freely distributable , describe order convert objects human readable format , file specification tddd included directory objects also shareware system called ttdddlib \( officially hubcap clemson edu \) convert \( ala pbm \) various object formats imagine ttddd \( extension tddd \? \) , , nff , rayshade 4 0 , vort source included amiga unix executables amiga also outputs framemaker mif files isometric views postscript p3d pittsburgh supercomputing center p3d uses lisp slight extensions store three dimensional models simple lisp interpreter included p3d release , need access vendor 's lisp run software mouse driven user interfaces motif , open look , silicon graphics gl , subroutine library generating p3d without ever looking underlying lisp p3d software currently supports nine renderers painter painter 's algorithm , , silicon graphics inc gl language , generic phigs , sun phigs , dec phigs , rayshade , art ray tracer \( vort package \) pixar renderman code available via anonymous ftp machines ftp psc edu , directory pub p3d , nic funet fi , directory pub graphics programs p3d renderman pixar 's renderman free call pixar details 8 solids description formats eec 's esprit project 322 cad \( cad interfaces \) developed neutral file format transfer cad data \( curves , surfaces , solid models cad systems cad \( computer aided analysis \) cam \( computer aided manufacturing \) b iges v 5 1 tries define standard tranfer solid models csg current standard number ansi y14 1987 documentation , might want contact nancy flower ncga technical services standards , 1 800 225 ext 325 cost 100 standard available electronic format c step slowly emerging standard tries encompass geometrical information , also things like fem , etc main bodies besides standard nist darpa get information sending mail cme nist gov putting line send index body \( subject \) area message people rutherford appleton lab also working step tools express compiler exchange file parser , available source form \( free \) research purposes soon also express based database system tools contact mike mead , phone 44 \( 0235 \) 44 6710 \( fax x \) , e mail mm inf rl ac uk ! mcsun ! uknet ! ! mm mm inf rl ac uk nsfnet relay ac uk end part 1 resource listing nick \( nikolaos \) fotis national technical univ athens , greece home 16 esperidon st , internet nfotis theseas ntua gr halandri , gr 152 32 uucp mcsun ! ariadne ! theseas ! nfotis athens , greece fax \( 30 1 \) 77 84 578
zyeh caspian usc edu \( zhenghao yeh \) subject ellipse offset organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 17 distribution world nntp posting host caspian usc edu keywords ellipse hi ! everyone , since people quickly solved problem determining sphere 4 points , suddenly recalled problem find ellipse offset example , given 5 points offset , find original ellipse \? spent two months solving problem using analytical method last year , failed pressure , use method nonlinear programming technique deal problem approximately ideas greatly appreciated please post , let others share interests yeh usc
d88 jwa hemul nada kth se \( jon wtte \) subject please recommend 3d graphics library mac organization royal institute technology , stockholm , sweden lines 21 nntp posting host hemul nada kth se cellar org tsa cellar org \( silent assassin \) writes i'm building cad package need 3d graphics library handle rudimentry tasks , hidden line removal , shading , animation , etc please offer recommendations \? think something called full wire frame \( supposedly hidden line removal \) library think weighs 99 \( 've wrong order magnitude \) libertarian , atheist , semi anarchal techno rat relate h jon w tte , h nada kth se , mac hacker deluxe clear disc , seek forever
peter visser el wau nl \( peter van der \) subject one wants fonts pov polyray vivid lines 28 organization wageningen agricultural university x newsreader ftpnuz \( dos \) v1 0 everyone wants fonts vivid pov polyray borland bgi font converter zip program found ftp informatik uni oldenburg de directory pub dkbtrace utils also wuarchive mirrored site \( directory graphics graphics mirrors ftp informatik uni oldenburg de pub dkbtrace utils nice utilities present directory new version polyray 1 6 \( asked \) found sites directory incoming instead utils \( \) also directory could found raytrace time peter peter visser el wau nl department genetics \( \) agricultural university u wageningen , netherlands
subject byu edu distribution world organization brigham young university lines 24 working project going including still moving within database course jpeg mpeg come mind formats choice various files however , read net , seems several different forms want , settle file format count standard format 10 years know apple going support quicktime new power pc 's , may format choice format apple 's quicktime use products \? guess kind mpeg motion picture different standard mpeg files \? thanx info ! art xray byu edu
nntp posting host bones et byu edu lines 6 subject pd 3d viewer wanted summary 3d expires may 20 , 1993 organization brigham young university , provo ut usa bones et byu edu \( kun \) looking public domain 3d viewer fancy features want simple wireframe display , flat shading , simple transformation would nice hidden line information appreciated
bryanw rahul net \( bryan woodworth \) subject cview answers organization a2i network lines 13 nntp posting host bolero 1993apr17 imag fr schaefer imag imag fr \( arno schaefer \) writes sorry , bryan , quite correct remember vgalib package comes linux sls \? switch vga 320x200x256 mode without xwindows least possible write gif viewer linux however n't think exists similar svga package , viewing gifs 320x200 nice , vgalib \? amazing guess lost subdirs \) thanks correcting n't sound appealing though , 320x200 \? i'm glad n't something major missed thanks ,
schaefer imag imag fr \( arno schaefer \) subject cview answers nntp posting host silene organization institut imag , grenoble , france lines 32 article rahul net , bryanw rahul net \( bryan woodworth \) writes 1993apr16 2246 whiting mcs com sean whiting mcs com \( sean gum \) writes stupid question , cview run get \? still need gif viewer linux \( without x windows \) thanks ! ho boy way hell going able view gifs graphics linux without x windows ! love linux easy learn want text \? okay use linux want text graphics \? use linux x windows simple painless required x windows want graphics ! includes fancy word processors like doc , image viewers like xv , etc sorry , bryan , quite correct remember vgalib package comes linux sls \? switch vga 320x200x256 mode without xwindows least possible write gif viewer linux however n't think exists similar svga package , viewing gifs 320x200 nice best regards , arno arno schaefer , 2e email schaefer silene imag fr tel \( 33 \) 76 51 79 95 \)
add sciences sdsu edu \( james murray \) subject need specs info apple quicktime organization san diego state university , college sciences lines 12 nntp posting host sciences sdsu edu keywords quicktime x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 need get specs , least verbose interpretation specs , quicktime technical articles magazines references books would nice also need specs format usable unix ms dos system ca n't much quicktime stuff ftp apple com present format thanks advance james murray add sciences sdsu edu
ee tu berlin de \( stefan hartmann \( \) \) subject genoa graphics board drivers ftp site ! article organization lines 29 nntp posting host ee tu berlin de hi , well opened ftp site getting latest software drivers genoa graphics cards access ftp 192 109 42 11 login ftp password ftp cd pub genoa ls l binary prompt hash \( wanna latest drivers 7900 board \) cd mget quit sequence get drivers question , please email best regards , stefan hartmann email ee tu berlin de
sigma rahul net \( kevin martin \) subject cview answers keywords stupid programming nntp posting host bolero organization a2i network lines 26 rahul net bryanw rahul net \( bryan woodworth \) writes tue nl renew blade stack urc tue nl \( rene walter \) writes info regarding dangers reading floppy disks omitted way careful ! incredibly poor programming program nevertheless , important bug needs squashed merely pointing probably overlooked serious , one must keep mind probably affect 5 targeted users cview ok , n't use cview anymore , saw one bug thread , goes fault cview dos ! leave file open floppy drive , change disk something updates closes file , good chance getting part directory fat disk written new disk always true , destroyed data programs , cview thing cview improve situation try leave files open unless 's actively using \( ie , reading decoding \) kevin martin sigma rahul net gotta get another hat
osprey ux4 cso uiuc edu \( lucas adamski \) subject fast polygon routine needed keywords polygon , needed organization university illinois urbana champaign lines 6 may fairly routine request , i'm looking fast polygon routine used 3d game one works right , slow could anyone point one , pref asm fairly well documented flexible \? thanx , lucas
orourke sophia smith edu \( joseph o'rourke \) subject fast polygon routine needed keywords polygon , needed organization smith college , northampton , , us lines 5 article news cso uiuc edu osprey ux4 cso uiuc edu \( lucas adamski \) writes may fairly routine request , i'm looking fast polygon routine used 3d game fast polygon routine \?
idr rigel cs pdx edu \( ian romanick \) subject rumours 3do \? \? \? article pdxgate organization portland state university , computer science dept lines 20 article 1993apr15 164940 11632 mercury unt edu mcmains unt edu \( sean mcmains \) writes wow ! 68070 ! 'd interested get hands one , especially considering fact motorola yet released 68060 , supposedly next 680x0 lineup 8 68070 68010 built mmu n't even think moto manufactures ian romanick dancing fool epsilon contained thoughts , ntsc quality best psu would probably agree look , n't know anything , know anti freeze see ! dead
ccgwt trentu ca \( grant totten \) subject ms windows graphics viewer \? keywords ms windows jpeg gif tiff lines 31 reply ccgwt trentu ca \( grant totten \) organization trent university howdy , wondering people could e mail opinions various graphics viewers available ms windows 3 x i'm working project set scanner write documentation use would nice image viewer look \( maybe even edit \? \) image scanned file formats i'm looking gif jpeg tiff pcx whatever file formats thanks lot help grant grant totten , programmer analyst , trent university , peterborough ontario trentu ca phone \( 705 \) 748 1653 fax \( 705 \) 748 1246 days old , knights bold , women cautious oh , gallant days , women women , men really obnoxious
orion oac uci edu \( robert c barris \) subject rumours 3do \? \? \? nntp posting host orion oac uci edu summary 3do demonstration organization university california , irvine keywords 3do arm qt compact video lines 73 article 1993apr16 212441 34125 rchland ibm com ricardo rchland vnet ibm com \( ricardo hernandez muchado \) writes article 1993apr15 164940 11632 mercury unt edu , sean mcmains mcmains unt edu writes article 1993apr15 144843 19549 rchland ibm com ricardo hernandez muchado , ricardo rchland vnet ibm com writes cd 's cpu n't help much either understand 68070 \( supposedly variation 68000 68010 \) running something like 7mhz speed , truly need sprites snip \( 3do 68000 ! ! ! \) ricardo , animation playback lawrence referring earlier post plain old quicktime 1 5 compact video codec 've seen digitized video \( apple 's early commercials , precise \) running centris 650 30fps nicely \( 16 bit color depth \) would expect using algorithm , risc processor able approach full screen full motion animation , though 've implied , processor taxed highly dynamic material snip booth walked , showing real time video capture using \( supermac \? \) card digitize make right spot quicktime movies think quicktime using old one \( 1 5 \) digitized guy talking something played back quite nicely real time guy expanded window \( resized \) \( 320 think \) frame rate decreased enough notice n't 30fps \( 30fps \) anymore dropped like 15 fps increased bit , dropped 10 12 fps asked mac using using quadra \( n't know model , 900 \? \) , telling guys quicktime could play back speed even lcii well , spoiled claim say , since 68040 quadra mac little bit trouble n't even hardisk ! memory ! could saw either newer version quicktime , hardware assisted centris , another software product running animation \( like supposedly macromind 's accelerator \? \) \? n't misunderstand , want clarify 3do box based arm risc processor , one two custom graphics chips , dsp , double speed cdrom , 2mb ram vram \( i'm little fuzzy breakdown graphics chips ram vram capacity \) demonstrated recent gathering electronic cafe santa monica , ca 3do , rj \( amiga lynx fame \) hal josephson \( sp \? \) talk machine plan got see unit displaying full screen movies using codec \( nice , little blockiness showing clips jaws backdraft \) high frame rate boot \( like 30fps \) note however 3do 's screen resolution pretty amazing also wanted point quicktime indeed slow one dynamically material stated i'm sure material compressed large size would play back fine \( q950 quite bit \) price generality personally n't use dynamic sizing movies often , ever playing back stuff original size plenty quick latest 040 machines i'm sure centris 20mhz 040 stacks 25 mhz arm 3do box obviously arm faster , much \? rob barris quicksilver software inc orion oac uci edu
osprey ux4 cso uiuc edu \( lucas adamski \) subject fast polygon routine needed keywords polygon , needed organization university illinois urbana champaign lines 11 article 1993apr17 sophia smith edu orourke sophia smith edu \( joseph o'rourke \) writes article news cso uiuc edu osprey ux4 cso uiuc edu \( lucas adamski \) writes may fairly routine request , i'm looking fast polygon routine used 3d game fast polygon routine \? draw polygons course vga mode 13h \( 320x200 \) game , done c asm need faster way draw concave polygons method right , slow lucas
mits mdata fi \( kenneth \) subject cview answers organization international service nntp posting host mits mdata fi lines 32 article rahul net bryanw rahul net \( bryan woodworth \) writes 1993apr17 imag fr schaefer imag imag fr \( arno schaefer \) writes sorry , bryan , quite correct remember vgalib package comes linux sls \? switch vga 320x200x256 mode without xwindows least possible write gif viewer linux however n't think exists similar svga package , viewing gifs 320x200 nice , vgalib \? amazing guess lost subdirs \) thanks correcting n't sound appealing though , 320x200 \? i'm glad n't something major missed tommy 's vgalib \( probably 're talking \) standard vga modes , modes tseng et4000 super vga modes et4000 i'm viewing gif 's 640x480 256 \( lousy small monitor \) dpg view linux think change constants dpg view sources make use modes vgalib 's sources seem designed easy addition new super vga support mode array register values 's program dumps array declaration kind describing current mode n't tried though \( btw , version vgalib 1 2 \) mits mdata fi try linux , free unix linus 386 's read comp os linux \( ask email like \) information run x11 , tex , gnu emacs much top nice posix environment
stein2 u washington edu \( toes \) subject anyone know use rayshade \? organization university washington lines 12 nntp posting host stein2 u washington edu keywords rayshade , uw i'm using rayshade u w computers , 'd like input users , perhaps swap ideas could post uuencoded gifs , ray code , anyone 's interested i'm trouble coming colors metallic \( e brass , steel \) rgb values 're u w machines , check rle files rle stein u washington edu 've got dan
mike mindlink bc ca \( mike \) subject fake virtual reality organization mind link ! british columbia , canada lines 11 ridiculous example vr exploitation 've seen far virtual reality clothing company recently opened vancouver far tell 's another clothes spot although would interesting selling virtual clothing e mail want dig phone probably get promotional lit mp \( 8 \)
craig toontown columbiasc ncr com \( craig williamson \) subject video reply craig toontown columbiasc ncr com \( craig williamson \) distribution na organization ncr e columbia , sc lines 14 i'm getting ready buy multimedia workstation would like little advice need graphics card video windows originally thinking targa n't work windows cards looking \? thanks , craig forgive divine , craig williamson airhead human craig williamson columbiasc ncr com craig toontown columbiasc ncr com \( home \) perfect strangers
ccgwt trentu ca \( grant totten \) subject ms windows screen grabber \? keywords windows screen grab document graphics lines 20 reply ccgwt trentu ca \( grant totten \) organization trent university howdy , could find screen grabber program ms windows \? i'm writing documentation would helpful include sample screens document please e mail n't follow group thanks lot , grant grant totten , programmer analyst , trent university , peterborough ontario trentu ca phone \( 705 \) 748 1653 fax \( 705 \) 748 1246 human brain like enormous fish flat slimy see monty python
cl cam ac uk \( j williams \) subject rumours 3do \? \? \? keywords 3do arm qt compact video reply cl cam ac uk organization national society inversion tigers lines 32 nntp posting host cl cam ac uk article news service uci edu orion oac uci edu \( robert c barris \) writes got see unit displaying full screen movies using codec \( nice , little blockiness showing clips jaws backdraft \) high frame rate boot \( like 30fps \) acorn replay running 25mhz arm 3 processor \( arm 3 20 slower arm 6 \) software \( standard cd rom \) 16 bit colour resolution \( computer 8 bit colour support , real time dithering \) supposed couple dsps arm used housekeeping i'm sure centris 20mhz 040 stacks 25 mhz arm 3do box obviously arm faster , much \? 25mhz arm clock around 20 arm mips , say 18 flat depends really surrounding system whether talking \( latter cache , essential run kind speed slower memory \) 'll stop saying things 'cos 'll hopefully working arm graduation mike ps n't pay heed reps philips say n't beat pants 'll eat postscript michael williams part ii computer science tripos phx cam ac uk university cambridge \( \) troi ben
edb syd dms csiro au \( ed \) subject dicta 93 originator edb friend syd dms csiro au keywords conference reply edb syd dms csiro au \( ed \) organization csiro division mathematics statistics , australia lines 163 australian pattern recognition society 2nd call papers dicta 93 2nd conference digital imaging computing techniques applications location macquarie theatre macquarie university sydney date 8 10 december 1993 dicta 93 second national conference australian pattern recognition society event provide opportunity persons interest computer vision , digital image processing analysis aspects pattern recognition become informed contemporary developments area , exchange ideas , establish contacts share details work others following invited speakers provide presentations prof herman , university pennsylvania medical imaging prof r , massey university new zealand computer vision prof dominique , centre de , paris mathematical morphology prof john richards , aust defence force academy , canberra remote sensing dr phillip k robertson , csiro division information technology , canberra interactive visualisation conference concentrate \( limited \) following areas image processing computer vision object recognition motion analysis morphology medical imaging fuzzy logic neural networks image coding machine vision robotics enhancement restoration enhancement restoration visualisation industrial applications software hardware tools papers sought presentation conference publication conference proceedings submission peer review consist extended abstract 750 1000 words doubled spaced text , summarizing technical aspects paper results quoted final papers limited 8 pages text illustrations camera ready form four \( 4 \) copies abstract sent dicta 93 c tony csiro division wool technology po box 7 ryde nsw 2112 australia important dates abstract due 25th june 1993 acceptance notified 27th august 1993 final paper due 15th october 1993 social program conference dinner held thursday 9th december 1993 social activities arranged situated beautiful harbour , sydney many varied places interest opera house harbour bridge two well known harbour , city tours blue mountains run daily provide information request accommodation accommodation within 15 min walking distance available , ranging college style 5 star hotel facilities information supplied upon request conference fees 30th sep 30th sep aprs members 220 250 aprs student members 120 150 others 250 280 conference dinner 35 dec 9th 1993 advanced registration name organisation address phone fax email current member aprs current member aprs please send information accommodation enclose please send form dicta 93 c tony csiro division wool technology po box 7 ryde nsw 2112 australia made payable dicta 93 information contact tony \( 02 \) 809 \( 02 \) 330 email ee uts edu au aprs member international association pattern recognition , inc affiliated member international federation information processing
ebu ericsson se \( cuyler \) subject fastest windows video c reply ebu ericsson se organization ericsson business communications , inc lines 9 nntp posting host bones ebu ericsson se x disclaimer article posted user ericsson opinions expressed strictly user necessarily ericsson article trentu ca , trentu ca \( , trent university , c c 314 , peterborough , , canada \( 705 \) 749 \) writes ati graphics ultra pro eisa version must admit received bad press due faulty drivers pc magazine seems impressed ati card recent reviews april 13th issue rate ati graphics ultra pro \( eisa version \) editor 's choice noted drivers improved since tested isa version january cuyler
cavalier blkbox com \( bill egan \) subject weitek p9000 \? nntp posting host houston pub ip psi net organization performance systems int'l lines 13 jgreen amber \( joe green \) writes anyone know weitek p9000 graphics chip \? weitek 's address phone number \? 'd like get information chip yes , interested chip please follow email bill egan cavalier graphics houston , texas email cavalier blkbox com
tgl cs cmu edu \( tom lane \) subject jpeg image compression frequently asked questions summary useful info jpeg \( jpg \) image files programs keywords jpeg , image compression , faq supersedes jpeg faq g gp cs cmu edu nntp posting host g gp cs cmu edu reply jpeg info uunet uu net organization school computer science , carnegie mellon expires sun , 16 may 1993 21 39 30 gmt lines 1027 archive name jpeg faq last modified 18 april 1993 faq article discusses jpeg image compression suggestions additions clarifications welcome new since version 3 april 1993 new versions image archiver os 2 article includes following sections 1 jpeg \? 2 use jpeg \? 3 use jpeg , stick gif \? 4 well jpeg compress images \? 5 good quality settings jpeg \? 6 get jpeg software \? 6a canned software , viewers , etc 6b source code 7 's hoopla color quantization \? 8 jpeg work \? 9 lossless jpeg \? 10 argument file formats \? 11 recognize file format , \? 12 arithmetic coding \? 13 loss accumulate repeated compression decompression \? 14 rules thumb converting gif images jpeg \? sections 1 6 basic info every jpeg user needs know sections 7 14 advanced info curious article posted every 2 weeks always find latest version news answers archive rtfm mit edu \( 18 172 1 27 \) ftp , fetch pub usenet news answers jpeg faq n't ftp , send e mail mail server rtfm mit edu body send usenet news answers jpeg faq many faq articles also stored archive instructions use archive , send e mail address words help index \( quotes \) separate lines n't get reply , server may misreading return address add line path specify correct e mail address reply 1 jpeg \? jpeg \( pronounced jay peg \) standardized image compression mechanism jpeg stands joint photographic experts group , original name committee wrote standard jpeg designed compressing either full color gray scale digital images natural , real world scenes work well non realistic images , cartoons line drawings jpeg handle black white \( 1 bit per pixel \) images , handle motion picture compression standards compressing types images worked committees , named jbig mpeg respectively jpeg lossy , meaning image get decompression n't quite identical originally put algorithm achieves much compression exploiting known limitations human eye , notably fact small color details n't perceived well small details light dark thus , jpeg intended compressing images looked humans plan machine analyze images , small errors introduced jpeg may problem , even invisible eye useful property jpeg degree lossiness varied adjusting compression parameters means image maker trade file size output image quality make extremely small files n't mind poor quality useful indexing image archives , making thumbnail views icons , etc etc conversely , n't happy output quality default compression setting , jack quality satisfied , accept lesser compression 2 use jpeg \? two good reasons make image files smaller , store 24 bit per pixel color data instead 8 bit per pixel data making image files smaller big win transmitting files across networks archiving libraries images able compress 2 mbyte full color file 100 kbytes makes big difference disk space transmission time ! \( comparing gif jpeg , size ratio like four one details \) viewing software n't support jpeg directly , 'll convert jpeg format viewing manipulating images even jpeg capable viewer , takes longer decode view jpeg image view image simpler format \( gif , instance \) thus , using jpeg essentially time space tradeoff give time order store transmit image cheaply 's worth noting network phone transmission involved , time savings transferring shorter file much greater extra time decompress file 'll let arithmetic reason jpeg gradually replace gif standard usenet posting format jpeg store full color information 24 bits pixel \( 16 million colors \) instead 8 less \( 256 fewer colors \) 8 bit display hardware may seem like much advantage within couple years , though , 8 bit gif look obsolete black white macpaint format today furthermore , reasons detailed section 7 , jpeg far useful gif exchanging images among people widely varying color display hardware hence jpeg considerably appropriate gif use usenet posting standard 3 use jpeg , stick gif \? jpeg going displace gif entirely types images , gif superior image quality , file size , one first things learn jpeg kinds images apply rule thumb , jpeg superior gif storing full color gray scale images realistic scenes means scanned photographs similar material jpeg superior even n't 24 bit display hardware , lot superior \( see section 7 details \) gif significantly better images distinct colors , cartoons line drawings particular , large areas pixels exactly color compressed efficiently indeed gif jpeg ca n't squeeze files much gif without introducing visible defects sort image best kept gif form \( particular , single color borders quite cheap gif files , avoided jpeg files \) jpeg also hard time sharp edges row pure black pixels adjacent row pure white pixels , example sharp edges tend come blurred unless use high quality setting , sort thing found scanned photographs , shows fairly often gif files borders , overlaid text , etc particularly objectionable text 's pixels high gif lot small size overlaid text , n't jpeg computer drawn images \( ray traced scenes , instance \) usually fall scanned images cartoons terms complexity complex subtly rendered image , likely jpeg well goes semi realistic artwork \( fantasy drawings \) plain black white \( two level \) images never converted jpeg need least 16 gray levels jpeg useful gray scale images also noted gif lossless gray scale images 256 levels , jpeg existing library gif images , may wonder whether convert jpeg lose little image quality \( section 7 , argues jpeg image quality superior gif , applies formats start full color original start gif , 've already lost great deal information jpeg make things worse \) however , disk space savings may justify converting anyway decision 'll make convert gif library jpeg , see section 14 hints prepared leave images gif format , since gifs convert well 4 well jpeg compress images \? pretty darn well sample file sizes image handy , full color image ship harbor first three files comparison purposes rest created free jpeg software described section 6b file size bytes comments ship ppm original file ppm format \( compression 24 bits 3 bytes per pixel , plus bytes overhead \) ship ppm z ppm file passed unix compress compress n't accomplish lot , 'll note text oriented compressors give similar results ship gif converted gif ppmquant fs 256 savings result losing color info gif saves 8 bits pixel , 24 \( see sec 7 \) ship cjpeg q 95 \( highest useful quality setting \) indistinguishable 24 bit original , least ship cjpeg q 75 \( default setting \) look mighty darn close distinguish original , even screen ship cjpeg q 50 slight defects know look , could tell 's without seeing original still good image quality many recent postings usenet pictures groups ship cjpeg q 25 jpeg 's characteristic blockiness becomes apparent setting \( djpeg helps \) still , 've seen plenty usenet postings poorer image quality ship cjpeg q 5 optimize \( optimize cuts table overhead \) , perfectly satisfactory preview indexing purposes note file tiny compression ratio original 173 1 ! case jpeg make file 's factor four five smaller gif comparable quality \( q 75 file every bit good gif , better full color display \) seems typical ratio real world scenes 5 good quality settings jpeg \? jpeg compressors let pick file size vs image quality tradeoff selecting quality setting seems widespread confusion meaning settings quality 95 mean keep 95 information , claimed quality scale purely arbitrary 's percentage anything name game using jpeg pick lowest quality setting \( smallest file size \) image indistinguishable original setting vary one image another one observer another , rules thumb default quality setting \( q 75 \) often best choice setting lowest go without expecting see defects typical image try q 75 first see defects , go except experimental purposes , never go q 95 saying q 100 produce file two three times large q 95 , hardly better quality image less perfect quality begin , might able go q 50 without objectionable degradation hand , might need go higher quality setting avoid degradation second case seems apply much time converting gifs jpeg default q 75 right compressing 24 bit images , q 85 95 usually better converting gifs \( see section 14 info \) want small file \( say preview indexing purposes \) prepared tolerate large defects , q setting range 5 10 right q 2 may amusing op art \( note quality settings discussed article apply free jpeg software described section 6b , many programs based jpeg implementations , image alchemy , may use completely different quality scale programs n't even provide numeric scale , high medium low style choices \) 6 get jpeg software \? programs described section available ftp n't know use ftp , see faq article find sources \( n't direct access ftp , read ftpmail servers article \) article appears regularly news answers , get sending e mail mail server rtfm mit edu send usenet news answers finding sources body anonymous ftp list faq may also helpful 's usenet news answers ftp list faq news answers archive note list changes constantly copy couple months old , get latest jpeg faq news answers archive 6a looking canned software , viewers , etc first part list system specific programs run one kind system n't see want machine , check portable jpeg software described end list note list concentrates free shareware programs obtain internet commercial programs listed x windows john bradley 's free xv \( version 2 00 \) excellent viewer jpeg , gif , image formats 's available ftp export lcs mit edu ftp cis upenn edu file called \? \? \? tar z' \( \? \? \? version number , currently 2 21 \) located directory export directory upenn xv reduces images 8 bits internally , means 's real good choice 24 bit display \( 'll still get 8 bit color \) also , n't use xv convert full color images jpeg , 'll get color quantized first xv fine tool converting gif 8 bit images jpeg caution glitch versions 2 21 earlier sure check save normal size saving jpeg file , file blurry another good choice x windows john cristy 's free imagemagick package , also available export lcs mit edu , file contrib imagemagick tar z package handles many image processing conversion tasks imagemagick viewer handles 24 bit displays correctly colormapped displays , better \( though slower \) color quantization xv basic free jpeg software large , complex packages want simple image viewer , try xloadimage xli xloadimage supports jpeg latest release , 3 03 xloadimage free available export lcs mit edu , file contrib xloadimage 3 03 tar z xli variant version xloadimage , said fans somewhat faster robust original \( current xli indeed faster robust current xloadimage , least respect jpeg files , ijg v4 decoder xloadimage 3 03 using hacked v1 next xloadimage release fix \) xli also free available export lcs mit edu , file contrib xli 1 14 tar z programs said right thing 24 bit displays ms dos covers plain dos windows os 2 programs , see next headings one good choice eric praetzel 's free dvpeg , views jpeg gif files current version , 2 4a , available ftp sunee uwaterloo ca \( 129 97 50 50 \) , file pub jpeg viewers zip good basic viewer works either 286 386 486 machines user interface flashy , 's functional another freeware jpeg gif tga viewer mohammad 's hiview current version , 1 2 , available simtel20 mirror sites \( see note \) , file msdos graphics zip hiview requires 386 better cpu vcpi compatible memory manager \( qemm386 386max work windows os 2 \) hiview currently fastest viewer images bigger screen larger images , scales image fit screen \( rather using panning scrolling viewers \) may may prefer approach , 's denying slows loading large images considerably note installation bit tricky read directions carefully ! shareware alternative colorview dos \( 30 \) easier install either two freeware alternatives user interface also much looking , although personally find harder use keystrokes , inconsistent behavior faster dvpeg little slower hiview , least hardware \( images larger screen size , dvpeg colorview seem speed , faster hiview \) current version 2 1 , available simtel20 mirror sites \( see note \) , file msdos graphics zip requires vesa graphics driver n't one , look zip vesa tsr zip directory \( many recent pcs built vesa driver , n't try load vesa driver unless colorview complains driver missing \) second shareware alternative fullview , kicking around net , n't know stable archive location current \( rather old \) version inferior viewers anyway author tells new version fullview shortly submitted simtel20 archives time well known gif viewer \( cshow \) supports jpeg latest revision , 8 however , cshow 's jpeg implementation n't good 's slow \( half speed viewers \) image quality poor except hi color displays bad 'd nice see good jpeg capability cshow shareware , 25 available simtel20 mirror sites \( see note \) , file msdos gif zip due remarkable variety pc graphics hardware , one viewers might work particular machine ca n't get work , 'll need use one following conversion programs convert jpeg gif , view favorite gif viewer \( hi color hardware , n't use gif intermediate format try find targa capable viewer instead 0 right thing hi color displays \) independent jpeg group 's free jpeg converters simtel20 mirror sites \( see note \) , file msdos graphics jpeg4 zip \( zip 386 extended memory \) files dos free source code described section 6b convert jpeg gif , targa , ppm formats handmade software offers free jpeg gif conversion tools , gif2jpg jpg2gif slow limited conversion gif format particular , ca n't get 24 bit color output jpeg major advantage tools read write hsi 's proprietary jpeg format well usenet standard jfif format since hsi format files rather widespread bbses , useful capability version 2 0 tools free \( prior versions shareware \) get simtel20 mirror sites \( see note \) , file msdos graphics zip note use hsi format files posted internet , since readable non pc platforms handmade software also shareware image conversion manipulation package , image alchemy translate jpeg files \( jfif hsi formats \) many image formats also display images demo version image alchemy version 1 6 1 available simtel20 mirror sites \( see note \) , file msdos graphics zip note simtel20 internet 's key archive site pc related programs simtel20 , full name wsmr simtel20 army mil \( 192 88 110 20 \) simtel20 runs non unix system weird directory names document refers directory \( eg \) msdos graphics simtel20 , really means pd1 msdos graphics physically milnet , expect rather slow ftp transfer rates simtel20 several internet sites maintain copies \( mirrors \) simtel20 archives ftp users go one mirror sites instead popular usa mirror site oak oakland edu \( 141 210 10 117 \) , keeps simtel20 files \( eg \) pub msdos graphics ftp capability , retrieve files simtel20 e mail see informational postings comp archives msdos announce find outside usa , consult newsgroup learn nearest simtel20 mirror microsoft windows several windows programs capable displaying jpeg images \( windows viewers generally slower dos viewers hardware , due windows' system overhead note run dos conversion programs described inside windows dos window \) newest entry , free extremely fast version 1 0 available ftp rahul net , file pub bryanw pc jpeg zip requires windows 3 1 256 colors mode frills viewer bad habit hogging machine completely decodes image quality noticeably worse viewers 's fast 'll use anyway , least previewing jview freeware , fairly fast , good line help , write image windows bmp format ca n't create new jpeg files , n't view gifs jview also lacks useful features shareware viewers \( brightness adjustment \) , 's excellent basic viewer current version , 0 9 , available ftp cica indiana edu \( 129 79 20 84 \) , file pub pc win3 desktop zip \( mirrors archive found internet sites , including wuarchive wustl edu \) winjpeg \( shareware , 20 \) displays jpeg , gif , targa , tiff , bmp image files write formats , used converter nifty features including color balance adjustment slideshow current version 2 1 , available simtel20 mirror sites \( see note \) , file msdos windows3 zip \( slow 286 compatible version register , 'll get 386 version , roughly 25 faster \) colorview another shareware entry \( 30 \) early promising contender , updated time , point real advantages winjpeg want try anyway , current version 0 97 , available ftp cica indiana edu , file pub pc win3 desktop zip \( understand new version appearing authors finished colorview dos \) dvpeg \( see dos heading \) also works windows , full screen mode , window os 2 following files available hobbes nmsu edu \( 128 123 35 151 \) note check pub uploads recent versions hobbes moderator fast moving uploads permanent directories pub os2 2 x graphics zip 32 bit version free ijg conversion programs , version 4 pub os2 graphics jpeg4 16 zip 16 bit version , os 2 1 x pub os2 2 x graphics zip image archiver 1 01 image conversion viewing pm graphical interface strong conversion functions , viewing bit weaker shareware , 15 pub os2 2 x graphics zip 1 1 os 2 2 x port winjpeg , popular viewer windows \( see description windows section \) shareware , 20 pub os2 2 x graphics zip 0 84 jpeg gif bmp viewer gif viewing fast , jpeg viewing fast huge amounts ram , otherwise speed programs strong 24 bit display support shareware , 20 macintosh mac jpeg programs rely apple 's jpeg implementation , part quicktime system extension need quicktime installed use quicktime , need 68020 better cpu need running system 6 0 7 later \( 're running system 6 , must also install 32 bit quickdraw extension built system 7 \) get quicktime ftp ftp apple com , file dts mac quicktime quicktime hqx \( 11 92 , file contains quicktime 1 5 , better qt 1 0 several ways respect jpeg , marginally faster considerably less prone crash fed corrupt jpeg file however , applications seem compatibility problems qt 1 5 \) mac users keep mind quicktime 's jpeg format , pict jpeg , usenet standard jfif jpeg format \( see section 10 details \) post images usenet , make sure jfif format programs mentioned generate either format first choice probably jpegview , free program viewing images jfif format , pict jpeg format , gif format also convert two jpeg formats current version , 2 0 , big improvement prior versions get sumex aim stanford edu \( 36 44 0 6 \) , file info mac app jpeg view 20 hqx requires system 7 quicktime 8 bit displays , jpegview usually produces best color image quality currently available mac jpeg viewers jpegview view large images much less memory mac viewers fact , 's one deal jpeg images much 640x480 pixels typical 4mb mac given large image , jpegview automatically scales fit screen , rather presenting scroll bars like viewers \( zoom desired portion , though \) people like behavior , n't overall , jpegview 's user interface well thought gifconverter , shareware \( 40 \) image viewer converter , supports jfif pict jpeg , well gif several image formats latest version 2 3 2 get sumex aim stanford edu , file info mac art gif gif converter 232 hqx requires system 6 0 5 later gifconverter better jpegview plain jpeg gif viewer , much extensive image manipulation format conversion capabilities , may find worth shareware fee lot playing around images also , newest version gifconverter load save jfif images without quicktime , best bet machine old run quicktime \( 's faster quicktime \) note gifconverter runs memory trying load large jpeg , try converting file gif jpeg convert , viewing gif version jpeg convert , mac version free ijg jpeg conversion utilities , available sumex aim stanford edu , file info mac app jpeg convert 10 hqx run mac , file conversion , viewing use conjunction gif viewer previous versions faq recommended imagery jpeg v0 6 , jpeg gif converter based old version ijg code using program , definitely replace jpeg convert apple 's free program pictpixie view images jfif , quicktime jpeg , gif format , convert formats get pictpixie ftp apple com , file dts mac quicktime qt 1 0 stuff pictpixie hqx requires quicktime pictpixie intended developer 's tool , 's really best choice unless like fool around quicktime drawbacks requires lots memory , produces relatively poor color image quality anything less 24 bit display , relatively unfriendly user interface worse , pictpixie unsupported program , meaning minor bugs apple intend fix \( old version pictpixie , called , floating around net trash , 's even also , quicktime starter kit includes much cleaned descendant pictpixie called picture compressor note picture compressor free may distributed net \) storm technology 's picture decompress free jpeg viewer converter rather old program inferior programs many ways , run without system 7 quicktime , may forced use older systems \( need 32 bit quickdraw , really old machines ca n't use \) get sumex aim stanford edu , file info mac app picture decompress 201 hqx must set file type downloaded image file 'jpeg' allow picture decompress open machine old run 32 bit quickdraw \( mac plus instance \) , gifconverter choice single program jpeg viewing n't want pay gifconverter , use jpeg convert free gif viewer commercial mac applications supporting jpeg , although deal usenet standard jfif format adobe photoshop , version 2 0 1 later , read write jfif format jpeg files \( use jpeg plug acquire menu \) must set file type downloaded jpeg file 'jpeg' allow photoshop recognize amiga \( programs listed section stored aminet archive amiga physik unizh ch \( 130 60 80 80 \) many mirror sites archive try use closest one usa , good choice wuarchive wustl edu look mirrors amiga physik unizh ch \) plus excellent jpeg viewer converter , well general image manipulation tool 's cheap \( shareware , 20 \) read several formats besides jpeg current version 2 0 8 demo version available amiga physik unizh ch \( mirror sites \) , file amiga gfx edit lha demo version crop images larger 512x512 , otherwise fully functional rend24 \( shareware , 30 \) image renderer display jpeg , ilbm , gif images program used create animations , even capturing frames fly rendering packages like lightwave current version 1 05 , available amiga physik unizh ch \( mirror sites \) , file amiga gfx lha \( note although directory supposedly amigados 3 0 programs , program also run amigados 1 3 , 2 04 2 1 \) viewtek free jpeg ilbm gif anim viewer current version 1 04 , available amiga physik unizh ch \( mirror sites \) , file amiga gfx show lha 're willing spend real money , several commercial packages support jpeg two written thomas krehbiel , author rend24 viewtek cinemorph , standalone image morphing package , , impressive 24 bit image capture , conversion , editing , painting , effects package also includes cinemorph distributed great valley products art department professional \( adpro \) , inc , widely used commercial image manipulation software amigas , black belt systems , another well regarded commercial graphics package jpeg support free ijg jpeg software available compiled amigas amiga physik unizh ch \( mirror sites \) directory amiga gfx conv , file lha programs convert jpeg ppm , gif , targa formats amiga world heavily infested quick dirty jpeg programs , many based ancient beta test version free ijg jpeg software \( thanks certain magazine published disk month , without much notifying authors \) among , , , probably others even heard opinion , anything older ijg version 3 \( march 1992 \) worth disk space 's stored program , trash get something newer atari st free ijg jpeg software available compiled atari st , tt , etc , atari archive umich edu , file atari graphics zoo programs convert jpeg ppm , gif , targa formats heard free shareware jpeg capable viewer ataris , surely must one \? pointers appreciated acorn archimedes ! , supplied risc os 3 version 3 10 , convert view jpeg jfif format provision also made convert images jpeg , although must done rather double clicking recent versions \( since 7 11 \) shareware program translator handle jpeg , along 30 image formats older versions found archimedes bboards , current version available registering author , john , 31 , wj , enschede , netherlands price 35 dutch \( 22 10 pounds \) 's also commercial product called ! jpeg provides jpeg read write functionality direct jpeg viewing , well host image format conversion processing options expensive necessarily better programs contact dt software , , cambridge , uk tel 0223 portable software almost system none fits situation , obtain compile free jpeg conversion software described 6b 'll also need viewer program display 8 bits less , gif viewer fine display color capability , try find viewer read targa ppm 24 bit image files numerous commercial jpeg offerings , popping every day recommend spend money one unless find available free shareware software vastly slow case , purchase hardware assisted product ask pointed questions whether product complies final jpeg standard whether handle jfif file format many earliest commercial releases never compatible anyone else 's files 6b looking source code work free , portable c code jpeg compression available independent jpeg group , lead package containing source code , documentation , small test files available several places official archive site source code ftp uu net \( 137 39 1 9 192 48 96 9 \) look directory graphics jpeg current release jpegsrc v4 tar z \( compressed tar file n't forget retrieve binary mode \) retrieve file ftp uucp pc n't know cope tar z format , may prefer zip format , find simtel20 mirror sites \( see note \) , file msdos graphics zip file also available compuserve , forum \( go pics \) , library 15 , zip ftp access , retrieve source nearest comp sources misc archive version 4 appeared issues 55 72 volume 34 \( n't know retrieve comp sources misc postings , see faq article find sources , referred top section 6 \) free jpeg code provides conversion jpeg jfif format image files gif , pbmplus ppm pgm , utah rle , targa file formats core compression decompression modules easily programs , image viewers package highly portable tested many machines ranging pcs released software noncommercial commercial use companies welcome use basis jpeg related products ask royalty , although ask acknowledgement product literature \( see readme file distribution details \) hope make software industrial quality although , anything 's free , offer warranty accept liability independent jpeg group volunteer organization 'd like contribute improving software , welcome join 7 's hoopla color quantization \? people n't full color \( 24 bit per pixel \) display hardware typical display hardware stores 8 fewer bits per pixel , display 256 fewer distinct colors time display full color image , computer must map image appropriate set representative colors process called color quantization \( something misnomer , color selection would better term 're stuck standard usage though \) clearly , color quantization lossy process turns images , details color quantization algorithm much impact final image quality errors introduced jpeg \( except lowest jpeg quality settings \) since jpeg full color format , converting color jpeg image display 8 bit less hardware requires color quantization true color jpegs even feed 256 less color gif jpeg , comes 256 colors , thousands colors happens jpeg 's lossiness affects pixel little differently , two pixels started identical colors probably come slightly different colors original color gets smeared group nearby colors therefore quantization always required display color jpeg colormapped display , regardless image source way avoid quantization ask gray scale output \( incidentally , effect 's nearly meaningless talk number colors used jpeg image even attempted count number distinct pixel values , different jpeg decoders would give different results roundoff error differences occasionally see posted images described 256 color jpeg tells poster \( \) n't read faq \( b \) probably converted jpeg gif jpegs classified color gray scale \( like photographs \) , number colors n't useful concept jpeg \) hand , gif image definition already quantized 256 fewer colors \( gif definite number colors palette , format n't allow 256 palette entries \) purposes usenet picture distribution , gif advantage sender color quantization , recipients n't also disadvantage gif 're stuck sender 's quantization sender quantized different number colors display , quantize , resulting much poorer image quality quantized full color image furthermore , sender n't use high quality color quantization algorithm , 're luck reason , jpeg offers promise significantly better image quality users whose machines n't match sender 's display hardware jpeg 's full color image quantized precisely match user 's display hardware furthermore , able take advantage future improvements quantization algorithms \( lot active research area \) , purchase better display hardware , get better view jpeg images already gif , 're stuck sent 's also worth mentioning many gif viewing programs include rather shoddy quantization routines view 256 color gif 16 color ega display , example , probably getting much worse image need partly inevitable consequence two color \( one create gif , one display \) , often 's also due sloppiness jpeg conversion programs forced use high quality quantizers order get acceptable results , normal use quantize directly number colors displayed thus , jpeg likely provide better results average gif program low color resolution displays well high resolution ones ! finally , ever growing number people better 8 bit display hardware already 15 bit hi color pc displays , true 24 bit displays workstations macintoshes , etc people , gif already obsolete , cannot represent image full capabilities display jpeg images drive displays much effectively thus , jpeg around better choice gif representing images machine independent fashion 8 jpeg work \? buzz words know subsampling , discrete transforms , coefficient quantization , huffman arithmetic entropy coding article 's long enough already , i'm going say technical information , see comp compression faq available news answers archive rtfm mit edu , files pub usenet news answers compression faq part 1 3 need help using news answers archive , see top article 9 lossless jpeg \? 's great deal confusion subject jpeg committee define truly lossless compression algorithm , e , one guarantees final output bit bit identical original input however , lossless mode almost nothing common regular , lossy jpeg algorithm , offers much less compression present , implementations lossless jpeg exist , commercial saying q 100 free jpeg software get lossless image get rid deliberate information loss coefficient quantization step still good deal information loss color subsampling step \( v4 free jpeg code , also say sample 1x1 turn subsampling keep mind many commercial jpeg implementations cannot cope resulting file \) even quantization subsampling turned , regular jpeg algorithm lossless , subject roundoff errors various calculations maximum error counts one pixel value 's highly unlikely could perceived human eye , might concern machine processing image minimum loss setting , regular jpeg produces files perhaps half size uncompressed 24 bit per pixel image true lossless jpeg provides roughly amount compression , guarantees bit bit accuracy application requiring lossless storage images less 6 bits per pixel \( per color component \) , may want look jbig image compression standard performs better jpeg lossless images jpeg lossless superior jbig images 6 bits per pixel furthermore , jpeg public domain \( least huffman back end \) , jbig techniques heavily covered patents 10 argument file formats \? strictly speaking , jpeg refers family compression algorithms refer specific image file format jpeg committee prevented defining file format turf wars within international standards organizations since ca n't actually exchange images anyone else unless agree common file format , leaves us problem absence official standards , number jpeg program writers gone thing , result programs n't compatible anybody else 's closest thing de facto standard jpeg format work 's coordinated people c cube microsystems defined two jpeg based file formats jfif \( jpeg file interchange format \) , low end format transports pixels much else tiff jpeg , aka tiff 6 0 , extension aldus tiff format tiff high end format let record everything ever wanted know image , lot besides \) tiff lot complex jfif , may well prove less transportable , different vendors historically implemented slightly different incompatible subsets tiff 's likely adding jpeg mix anything improve situation formats developed input major vendors jpeg related products 's reasonably likely future commercial products adhere one standards believe usenet adopt jfif replacement gif picture postings jfif simpler tiff available tiff 6 0 spec recently officially adopted , still vague crucial details even tiff jpeg well defined , jfif format likely widely supported lowest common denominator tiff jpeg files may never transportable particular case people may interested apple 's quicktime software macintosh quicktime uses jfif compatible format wrapped inside mac specific pict structure conversion jfif quicktime jpeg pretty straightforward , several mac programs available \( see mac portion section 6a \) editor handles binary files , strip quicktime jpeg pict jfif hand see section 11 details another particular case handmade software 's programs \( gif2jpg jpg2gif image alchemy \) programs capable reading writing jfif format default , though , write proprietary format developed hsi format readable non hsi programs used usenet postings use j switch get jfif output \( applies old versions programs current releases emit jfif format default still careful post hsi format files , unless want get flamed people non pc platforms \) 11 recognize file format , \? alleged jpeg file software wo n't read , 's likely hsi format proprietary jpeg based format tell first bytes file 1 jfif standard file start characters \( hex \) ff d8 ff e0 , followed two variable bytes \( often hex 00 10 \) , followed 'jfif' 2 see ff d8 start , rest , may raw jpeg file probably jfif software 's worth try , anyway 3 hsi files start 're luck unless hsi software portions file may look like plain jpeg data , wo n't decompress properly non hsi programs 4 macintosh pict file , jpeg compressed , couple hundred bytes header followed jfif header \( scan 'jfif' \) strip everything ff d8 able read 5 anything else 's proprietary format , jpeg lucky , file may consist header raw jpeg data stream identify start jpeg data stream \( look ff d8 \) , try stripping everything uuencoded usenet postings , characteristic jfif pattern begin line c x whereas uuencoded hsi files start begin line ' learn check former , save trouble downloading non jfif files 12 arithmetic coding \? jpeg spec defines two different back end modules final output compressed data either huffman coding arithmetic coding allowed choice impact image quality , arithmetic coding usually produces smaller compressed file typical images , arithmetic coding produces file 5 10 percent smaller huffman coding \( file size numbers previously cited huffman coding \) unfortunately , particular variant arithmetic coding specified jpeg standard subject patents owned ibm , , mitsubishi thus cannot legally use arithmetic coding unless obtain licenses companies \( fair use doctrine allows people implement test algorithm , actually storing images dubious best \) least short run , recommend people worry arithmetic coding space savings n't great enough justify potential legal hassles particular , arithmetic coding used images exchanged usenet small chance legal situation may change future stay tuned details 13 loss accumulate repeated compression decompression \? would nice , compressed image jpeg , could decompress , manipulate \( crop border , say \) , recompress without image degradation beyond lost initially unfortunately case general , altered image loses information , though usually much lost first time around next best thing would decompress image recompress without changing loss , e , get identical jpeg file even true least , current free jpeg software 's essentially problem accumulation roundoff error repeatedly compress decompress , image eventually degrade see visible changes first generation output \( usually takes many cycles get visible change \) one things list see accumulation error avoided limited , optimistic case , could possibly guaranteed would compressing unmodified full color output djpeg , original quality setting , would introduce loss even simple changes cropping border could cause roundoff error degradation \( 're wondering , 's pixel block boundaries move cropped 16 pixels , might safe , 's mighty limited capability ! \) bottom line jpeg useful format archival storage transmission images , n't want use intermediate format sequences image manipulation steps use lossless format \( ppm , rle , tiff , etc \) working image , jpeg ready file away aside avoiding degradation , save lot compression decompression time way \) 14 rules thumb converting gif images jpeg \? stated earlier , lose amount image information convert existing gif image jpeg obtain original full color data gif made , 's far better make jpeg need save space gif work , suggestions getting maximum space savings minimum loss quality first rule converting gif library look jpeg , make sure happy , throwing away corresponding gif give chance conversion higher quality setting necessary gifs may better left gifs , explained section 3 particular , cartoon type gifs sixteen fewer colors n't convert well may find jpeg file reasonable quality larger gif \( check sizes \) experience date suggests large , high visual quality gifs best candidates conversion jpeg chew storage offer potential savings , convert jpeg least degradation n't waste time converting gif much 100 kbytes also , n't expect jpeg files converted gifs small created directly full color originals maintain image quality may let converted files much twice big straight jpeg files would \( e , shoot 1 2 1 3rd size gif file , 1 4th suggested earlier comparisons \) many people developed odd habit putting large constant color border around gif image useless , nearly free terms storage cost gif files free jpeg files , sharp border boundary create visible artifacts \( ghost edges \) favor crop border jpeging \( x windows system , xv 's manual automatic cropping functions painless way \) cjpeg 's default q setting 75 appropriate full color input , gif inputs , q settings 85 95 often seem necessary avoid image degradation \( apply smoothing suggested , higher q setting may necessary \) color gifs photographs complex artwork usually dithered fool eye seeing 256 colors gif actually store enlarge image , see adjacent pixels often significantly different colors normal size eye averages pixels together produce illusion intermediate color value trouble dithering , jpeg , looks like high spatial frequency color noise jpeg ca n't compress noise well resulting jpeg file larger lower image quality would gotten jpeging original full color image \( \) get around , want smooth gif image compression smoothing averages together nearby pixels , thus approximating color thought saw anyway , process getting rid rapid color changes give jpeg trouble appropriate use smoothing often let avoid using high q factor , thus reducing size compressed file , still obtaining better looking output image 'd get without smoothing v4 free jpeg software \( products based \) , simple smoothing capability built try smooth 10 converting gifs values 10 25 seem work well high quality gifs heavy handed dithering may require larger smoothing factors \( see regular fine scale patterns gif image even without enlargement , strong smoothing definitely called \) large smoothing factor blur output image , n't want image processing wizard , also smoothing separate filtering program , pnmconvol pbmplus package however , cjpeg 's built smoother lot faster pnmconvol upshot cjpeg quality 85 smooth 10 probably good starting point converting gifs really care image , 'll want check results maybe try settings information jpeg general free jpeg software particular , contact independent jpeg group jpeg info uunet uu net tom lane organizer , independent jpeg group internet tgl cs cmu edu bitnet tgl cs cmu edu carnegie
nx10 mik uky edu \( bryan k williams \) subject cview answers keywords stupid programming nntp posting host nx10 mik uky edu organization university kentucky lines 4 well , temp file thing creates obvious problem impossible use cview viewing cd rom based picture collections non windows viewer works properly cirrus based 24 bit vga
nx10 mik uky edu \( bryan k williams \) subject cview answers keywords stupid programming nntp posting host nx10 mik uky edu organization university kentucky lines 6 majority users floppy well , us 1400 picture cd roms would like use cview fast works well , ca n't moron lacked foresight create temp file program 's path , current \?
full gl pts mot com \( glen fullmer \) subject needed plotting package nntp posting host dolphin reply glen fullmer pts mot com organization paging wireless data group , motorola , inc comments hyperbole mail buttons accepted , v3 07 lines 27 looking graphics cad whatever package x unix box take file records like n b p n count integer entity string b entity b string p type string produce networked graph nodes represented boxes circles vertices represented lines width line determined n would different line type type boxes need identified entity 's name number entities 1000 vertices would nice tool minimized line cross good job layout \) looked faq comp graphics gnuplot without success ideas would appreciated \? thanks , glen fullmer , glen fullmer pts mot com , \( 407 \) 364 3296 successful technology , reality must take precedence public relations , nature cannot fooled richard p feynman
halcyon com \( lyall \) subject video organization northwest nexus inc \( 206 \) 455 lines 29 organization world information fingertips keywords article 628 toontown columbiasc ncr com craig toontown columbiasc ncr com \( craig williamson \) writes i'm getting ready buy multimedia workstation would like little advice need graphics card video windows originally thinking targa n't work windows cards looking \? thanks , craig forgive divine , craig williamson airhead human craig williamson columbiasc ncr com craig toontown columbiasc ncr com \( home \) perfect strangers craig , still consider targa run windows 3 1 time work works fine think need right driver josh west email halcyon com
subject gl fli specs arthur com \( arthur \) organization qed bbs , ca lines 6 somebody point find specs gl fli files found pc 's \? arthur com \( arthur \) qed ! arthur qed bbs \( 310 \) 420
cup portal com \( \) subject ms windows graphics viewer \? organization portal system \( tm \) lines 7 check image pals v1 2 u lead \( may , special 99 intro price , 310 523 \) basic image processing tools major formats , screen grabbing , allows image files thumbnail database 's great !
ccgwt trentu ca \( grant totten \) subject ms windows screen grabber \( summary \) lines 28 reply ccgwt trentu ca \( grant totten \) organization trent university hi , many thanks people responded request ms windows screen grabber proves net wonderful thing \) , summary two choices 1 \) various screen grabber packages \( corel draw one , couple simtel cica \) 2 \) use built alt functionality paste screen \( window \) clipboard paste clipboard application cool ! , thanks info grant \( ms windows newbie unix x bag \) grant totten , programmer analyst , trent university , peterborough ontario trentu ca phone \( 705 \) 748 1653 fax \( 705 \) 748 1246 woman 's place wrong james
cco caltech edu \( \) subject tiff \( next appsoft draw \) gif conversion \? organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 27 nntp posting host punisher caltech edu summary help ! keywords tiff gif graphics conversion next appsoft okay friends bitching map made appsoft draw ca n't displayed xv checked 's true , least version 1 0 readers next little trouble \( preview eps , fine tiff 9a behaves flying colors except n't convert worth \) \) please way convert appsoft 1 0 next something reasonable like gif \? access sun4 nextstep 3 0 systems good reliable conversion programs would helpful please email , 'll post responses anyone wants please email yes used \( god could choke steve jobs right \) \) yes know archie , tell archie \) also way convert ps plain format \? 9 turns nothing recognizable small editorial rw r r 1 apr 18 08 03 tiff rw r r 1 apr 18 08 03 tiff z using gzip ! something wrong format \?
engin umich edu \( david \) subject 2d bitmap interpolation organization university michigan lines 11 distribution world nntp posting host engin umich edu yesterday wrote program interpolation ala numerical recipes , pbmplus libraries i'm pretty happy results , i'm looking already coded non linear interpolation schemes go ahead try write one pointers \? \) dave um caen user services wealth wasted \) engin umich edu 229 chrysler center old \) \( 313 \) 763 ann arbor , mi 48109
pbenson ecst csuchico edu \( paul benson \) subject cd rom indexes available organization california state university , chico lines 6 nntp posting host cscihp ecst csuchico edu file contents listings knowledge media resource library graphics 1 knowledge media resource library audio 1 available anonymous ftp cdrom com
dgf1 quads uchicago edu \( dr \) subject fastest windows video c reply dgf1 midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 21 article 1993apr17 exu ericsson se ebu ericsson se writes article trentu ca , trentu ca \( , trent university , c c 314 , peterborough , , canada \( 705 \) 749 \) writes ati graphics ultra pro eisa version must admit received bad press due faulty drivers pc magazine seems impressed ati card recent reviews april 13th issue rate ati graphics ultra pro \( eisa version \) editor 's choice noted drivers improved since tested isa version january cuyler yeah also gave editor 's choice run graphics accelerators tested previous issue , bought \( returned \) mine conclusion come pc magazine wildly different ways determining worthiness video card david farley university chicago library 312 702 3426 1100 east 57th street , jrl 210 dgf1 midway uchicago edu chicago , illinois 60637
edimg willard atl ga us \( ed pimentel \) subject help ! need jpeg mpeg decode organization willard 's house bbs , atlanta , ga 1 \( 404 \) 664 8814 lines 41 involve distant learning project need jpeg mpeg encode decode source object code profit project completed hope release educational institutional learning centers project requires true photographic images sent plain telephone lines addition real good gui lib 3d objects types menu classes use end transaction \( server terminal end \) would like hear recently posted rfd announcing otg \( open telematic group \) concern developement application would incorporate naplps , jpeg , mpeg , voice , , fax sprites , animation \( fli , flc , etc \) present dos unix environment worked hope generate enough interest major platform via independent api toolkit sdk mind time project group form deal issues want setup repository files may access start putting together otg faq information opinion would interest otg community like see included first faq please send email address thanks advance ed p box atlanta ga \( 404 \) 985 1198 zyxel 14 4 world std com ed pimentel gisatl fidonet org edimg willard atl ga us \( ed pimentel \) gatech ! kd4nc ! ! willard ! edimg emory ! ! willard ! edimg willard 's house bbs , atlanta , ga 1 \( 404 \) 664 8814
organization penn state university psuvm psu edu subject scanned grey color equations \? lines 7 back someone several equations could used changing 3 f grey scale images one true color image possible 's theory used color scanners looking solution buy color scanner need ions becasue starting write software automate conversion process would really appreciate someone would repost 3 equations 3 unknowns thanks help ! ! !
ednobles sacam oren ortn edu \( edward nobles \) subject pov tga 's speedstar 24 organization oak ridge national laboratory x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 17 finally got 24 bit viewer povray generated tga files written c sean kindly sent copy wrote purpose , view tga files using speedstar 24 works speedstar 24 cannot send copies since program believe author may release version future time program developed may may comment , pleases thanks helpful regards , jim nobles
nmsu edu \( \) subject need algorithm reading displaying bitmap files organization new mexico state university lines 7 nntp posting host gauss nmsu edu keywords gif pcx bmp i'm making customized paint program dos need algorithm reading bitmap files like gif , pcx , bmp anyone algorithm \? 've tried copying one book reading pcx format n't work take algorithm format created windows paint thanks !
ken cs ualberta ca \( kenneth \) subject images earth nntp posting host cs ualberta ca organization university alberta lines 14 looking graphic images earth shot space \( preferably 24 bit color , 256 color gif 's \) anyways , anyone knows ftp site find , 'd greatly appreciate could pass information thanks \( please send email \) ken ken cs ualberta ca
watson uwa oz au \( david watson \) subject sphere 4 points \? organization maths dept uwa lines 23 distribution world nntp posting host maths uwa edu au article shelley u washington edu , bolson carson u washington edu \( edward bolson \) writes given 4 points \( non coplanar \) , one find sphere , , center radius , exactly fitting points \? finding discussed page 33 guide analysis display spatial data , dave watson , press , 1992 , isbn 0 08 0 , pair vertices define plane perpendicular bisector line pair express plane form ax cz solve set simultaneous equations three planes vertex common \( vertices used \) solution dave watson internet watson maths uwa edu au department mathematics university western australia tel \( 61 9 \) 380 nedlands , wa 6009 australia fax \( 61 9 \) 380 1028
tdawson engin umich edu \( chris herringshaw \) subject wanted organization university michigan engineering , ann arbor lines 8 distribution world nntp posting host antithesis engin umich edu excuse sheer post , looking decent save various file formats \( bmp pcx etc etc \) via ftp , freeware , shareware would like check available programs little check commercial market thanks advance help direction give daemon
pitt edu \( william b \) subject vesa graphics standard organization university pittsburgh lines 7 u ibm pc world , much standard vesa become svga graphics \? know lots graphics board companies , well several graphics chips manufacturers adhering vesa standard , effect vesa local bus \? anyone \?
egerter gaul csd uwo ca \( barry egerter \) subject 's dmorf \? organization computer science dept , univ western ontario , london , canada distribution usa keywords dmorf nntp posting host obelix gaul csd uwo ca lines 26 could anyone direct ftp site find dos based morphing package called zip \? downloaded file last week , new dos 6 crashed hard drive lost ca n't find site got also , morphing packages dos \( freeware shareware \) thanks advance , barry egerter obelix gaul csd uwo ca author wgt graphics toolkit 320 200 256 vga version 3 5 available \( turbo borland c 1 0 better \) joystick mouse graphics primitives non bgi power gif pcx data storage sprites scrolling games bitmap warping resizing sb support fli egerter obelix gaul csd uwo ca
bolson carson u washington edu \( edward bolson \) subject sphere 4 points \? organization university washington , seattle lines 33 distribution world nntp posting host carson u washington edu plan post summary responses soon working code , also include intersection 3 planes method looks best , implementation based short article graphics gems n't work may , course avoided simultaneous solution plane equations favor dot cross products , former may actually better either case matrix needs computed \( implicitly solution linear equations \) get planes , taking line , say , p1 p2 , setting normal normalized vector p1 p2 plugged formula graphics gems however , resulting center point occasionally 4 test points \( different tests \) matrix vector math rusty , looks like need verify formula , use simultaneous equation solution , require bringing another routine n't \( easy find \) another method first find center circle defined 2 sets 3 points , intersecting normals would also define circle center however , small numerical would make lines intersect supposedly 3 planes intersect unique point parallel ed thanks answered far ed bolson university washington cardiovascular research \( 206 \) 543 bolson u washington edu \( preferred \) bolson max bitnet bolson milton u washington edu \( must \)
steve hcrlgw \( steven collins \) subject sphere 4 points organization central research lab hitachi , ltd lines 24 nntp posting host hcrlgw another method first find center circle defined 2 sets 3 points , intersecting normals would also define circle center however , small numerical would make lines intersect supposedly 3 planes intersect unique point parallel thought , n't project 2 lines onto 2d plane formed lines intersection calculation plane 2d , 're guaranteed unique solution \( unless 're parallel wo n't happen case \) , use parametric distance along lines circle centres determine exact point interest messy error propogation required calculation 3d hope n't put foot ! steve steven collins email steve crl hitachi co jp visiting computer graphics researcher phone \( \) 23 1111 hitachi central research lab tokyo fax \( \) 27
ldo waikato ac nz \( lawrence d'oliveiro , waikato university \) subject rumours 3do \? \? \? organization university waikato , hamilton , new zealand lines 52 article 1993apr16 212441 34125 rchland ibm com , ricardo rchland vnet ibm com \( ricardo hernandez muchado \) writes article 1993apr15 164940 11632 mercury unt edu , sean mcmains mcmains unt edu writes ricardo , animation playback lawrence referring earlier post plain old quicktime 1 5 compact video codec 've seen digitized video \( apple 's early commercials , precise \) running centris 650 30fps nicely \( 16 bit color depth \) would expect using algorithm , risc processor able approach full screen full motion animation , though 've implied , processor taxed highly dynamic material sean , n't want get 'mini war' going say , little bit skeptic performance claiming centris , 'll see \( please , flames , reserve c \) \) chicago last consumer electronics show , apple booth walked , showing real time video capture using \( supermac \? \) card digitize make right spot quicktime movies think quicktime using old one \( 1 5 \) fact current version \( came december \) digitized guy talking something played back quite nicely real time guy expanded window \( resized \) \( 320 think \) frame rate decreased enough notice n't 30fps \( 30fps \) anymore dropped like 15 fps increased bit , dropped 10 12 fps asked mac using using quadra \( n't know model , 900 \? \) , telling guys quicktime could play back speed even lcii well , spoiled claim say , since 68040 quadra mac little bit trouble n't even hardisk ! memory ! test movie created 320 240 resolution , n't scaled scaling cpu intensive operation original quicktime \( 1 0 \) current version ratios like 4 1 \( 160 120 320 240 \) , even , i'm prepared believe performance n't good playing back actual 320 240 movie n't done numerical measurements scaled playback lawrence d'oliveiro fone 64 7 856 2889 computer services dept fax 64 7 838 4066 university waikato electric mail ldo waikato ac nz hamilton , new zealand 37 47' 26 , 175 19' 7 e , gmt 12 00
ed cwis unomaha edu \( ed stastny \) subject chaos editions idea \( directory electronic arts \) keywords electronic art organization university nebraska omaha lines 30 've borrowed 1992 93 version book friend holy ! wealth contacts five hundred pages information electronic artists organizations around globe \( many email addresses \) minute database information also available \( book 's based france internet gates \? \) book printed french english organization listed idea , send information annick idea 57 , rue paris france 's free listed , i'm sure widely distributed book much costs i'm affiliated way , impressed collection organizations artists highly encourage involved electronic media \( video , music , graphics , animation , etc \) send entry encourage make database available internet e ed stastny otis project , end process , sound news arts po bx 241113 ftp sunsite unc edu \( pub multimedia pictures otis \) omaha , ne 68124 1113 141 214 4 135 \( projects otis \) email ed cwis unomaha edu , ed sunsite unc edu
jhwitten cs ruu nl \( jurriaan wittenberg \) subject images earth organization utrecht university , dept computer science lines 27 1993apr18 ucs ualberta ca ken cs ualberta ca \( kenneth \) writes looking graphic images earth shot space \( preferably 24 bit color , 256 color gif 's \) anyways , anyone knows ftp site find , 'd greatly appreciate could pass information thanks try ftp ing pub info jpl nasa gov \( 128 149 6 2 \) \( simple dir structure \) ames arc nasa gov pub space gif pub space jpeg sorry 8 bits gifs jpegs \( great 's though \( try x gif files 're semi huge gif89a files \) watch gif89a dead ahead ! ! ! good luck \( good software found \) jurriaan jhwitten cs ruu nl jhwitten cs ruu nl jurriaan wittenberg department utrecht netherlands
nestvx enet dec com \( burkhard neidecker lutz \) subject rumours 3do \? \? \? organization cec karlsruhe lines 17 nntp posting host nestvx keywords 3do arm qt compact video article news service uci edu orion oac uci edu \( robert c barris \) writes i'm sure centris 20mhz 040 stacks 25 mhz arm 3do box obviously arm faster , much \? would much faster \( probably \) \? assuming arm efficient mips r3000 integer calculations , compact video like digital video codec easy task software motion pictures \( lot like compact video , though predates \) , get 48 frames sec decstation 5000 200 machine 25 mhz mips r3000 burkhard neidecker lutz distributed multimedia group , cec karlsruhe portfolio manager software motion pictures ii project multimedia base technology digital equipment corporation neidecker nestvx enet dec com
alan saturn cs swin oz au \( alan christiansen \) subject sphere 4 points \? organization swinburne university technology lines 71 nntp posting host saturn cs swin oz au netcom com \( steve worley \) writes bolson carson u washington edu \( edward bolson \) writes boy , embarassing trivial faq given 4 points \( non coplanar \) , one find sphere , , center radius , exactly fitting points \? know circle \( 3 points \) , immediately see straightforward way 3 checked geometry books , graphics gems , farin , still loss \? please mercy provide solution \? 's bad question n't refs list algorithm either thinking bit , n't hard 1 \) take three points find plane define well circle lie \( say algorithm already \) 2 \) find center circle line passing center perpendicular plane three points passes center sphere 3 \) repeat unused point two original points gives two different lines pass sphere 's origin center sphere 4 \) radius easy compute , 's distance center original points 'll leave math , workable algorithm \) good bad feeling problem special case solution worried four coplanar points shape square unique sphere surface similarly 4 point finite sized sphere surface algorithms geometrical designed rather design meet problems neatly determining plane 3 points algorithm return infinite r intersecting two lines 2 possibilities line \( 4 points planar circle \) different lines parallel sphere radius last case achieved 3 points 4th point taking 4th point pairs first 3 parallel lines produced also achieved 4 points coplanar one circle seems algorithm fails 4 points coplanar algorithm always fails points coplanar \( 4 points coplanar \) testing 4th point coplanar plane first 3 points found trivial alternate method would take pairs points plane formed perpendicular bisector line segment pair also contains center sphere three pairs form three planes , intersecting point might easier implement steve netcom com
ricky watson ibm com \( rick turner \) subject images earth disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host ibm com organization ibm uk labs lines 6 look pub space directory ames arc nasa gov number earth images may hunt around subdirectories things tend filed mission \( ie , apollo \) rather image subject rick
sean whiting mcs com \( sean gum \) subject cview answers organization whiting corporation , harvey , illinois x newsreader tin 1 1 pl4 lines 11 renew blade stack urc tue nl \( rene walter \) writes kind soul mailed reply bugs cview since n't position post , asked post , leave name comes cview quite number bugs one mention perhaps stupid question , cview run get \? still need gif viewer linux \( without x windows \) thanks !
bryanw rahul net \( bryan woodworth \) subject cview answers nntp posting host bolero organization a2i network lines 14 1993apr16 2246 whiting mcs com sean whiting mcs com \( sean gum \) writes stupid question , cview run get \? still need gif viewer linux \( without x windows \) thanks ! ho boy way hell going able view gifs graphics linux without x windows ! love linux easy learn want text \? okay use linux want text graphics \? use linux x windows simple painless required x windows want graphics ! includes fancy word processors like doc , image viewers like xv , etc
bryanw rahul net \( bryan woodworth \) subject cview answers keywords stupid programming nntp posting host bolero organization a2i network lines 18 tue nl renew blade stack urc tue nl \( rene walter \) writes info regarding dangers reading floppy disks omitted way careful ! incredibly poor programming program hand , choosing files open files menu , cview insists disk reads every time one moves hi lighter square incredibly annoying could gets directory info really , much effort take sort directory listing \? fairness , many people know personally read images floppy drives \? n't tried jpegs , realize slow gif files nevertheless , important bug needs squashed merely pointing probably overlooked serious , one must keep mind probably affect 5 targeted users cview
cb wixer bga com \( cyberspace buddha \) subject cview answers keywords stupid programming organization real time communications lines 15 renew blade stack urc tue nl \( rene walter \) writes places temp files places current directory beg differ point , batch file use launch cview cd 's dir cview resides invokes every time crash cview , 0 byte temp file found root dir drive cview 0 13 , cb cyberspace buddha looking knowledge \( cb wixer bga com pay attention already know \? \) cb wixer cactus org get chair ! hillary god peace
tamvm1 tamu edu subject help ! need 3 graphics code package dos ! ! ! organization texas university lines 7 nntp posting host tamvm1 tamu edu help ! ! need code package whatever take 3 data turn wireframe surface hidden lines removed i'm using dos machine , code ansi c c , ansi fortran basic data i'm using forms rectangular grid please post replies net others may benefit imho , general interest question thank ! ! ! ! ! !
d91 hj se \( stefan \) subject vesa speedstar 24 organization h j nk ping lines 8 nntp posting host et hj se posting john cormack wanted tell slight difference speedstar 24 speedstar 24x stefan
city ac uk \( michael collier \) subject converting images hp laserjet iii \? nntp posting host hampton organization city university lines 14 anyone know good way \( standard pc application pd utility \) convert tif img tga files laserjet iii format would also like , converting hpgl \( hp plotter \) files please email response correct group \? thanks advance michael michael collier \( programmer \) computer unit , email p collier uk ac city city university , tel 071 477 8000 london , fax 071 477
andreasa dhhalden \( andreas arff \) subject comp graphics programmer organization ostfold college lines 20 nntp posting host hello netters sorry , n't know right way kind thing , probably cfv , since n't tha ability create news group , want start discussion enjoy reading c g much , often find difficult sort i'm interested everything screen drivers , graphics cards , graphics programming graphics programs 'd like comp graphics programmer news group think arff also religous confessor , mystery higher values , 's birth mankind last builds upon often disregarded seldom hear beeing prized , seldom hear seeing man sees per , fist \( free translation swedish \) andreas arff andreasa dhhalden
razor unit \( \) subject help ! need 3 graphics code package dos ! ! ! organization university trondheim , norway lines 8 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 tamvm1 tamu edu wrote help ! ! need code package whatever take 3 data turn wireframe surface hidden lines removed i'm using dos machine , code ansi c c , ansi fortran basic data i'm using forms rectangular grid please post replies net others may benefit imho , general interest question thank ! ! ! ! ! !
sp1marse \( marco seirio \) subject surface intersections lines 7 x newsreader tin 1 1 pl3 problem intersections two surfaces anybody easy understand algorithm maybe even c source \? \? marco seirio real life sp1marse caligula
fr \( max \) subject wanted atomic energy res establishment \( uk \) organization laboratoire de lines 16 distribution comp nntp posting host fr i'm looking following paper marlow , powell , j fortran subroutine plotting part inside given triangle rep r , atomic energy res establishment , , england 1976 anything related \( including 3d cases \) max max laboratoire always better , never first de france
roell informatik tu muenchen de \( thomas roell \) subject 24 bit graphics cards reply parsec paradyne com 's message wed , 14 apr 1993 21 59 34 gmt organization inst fuer informatik , technische univ muenchen , germany lines 20 looking eisa vesa local bus graphic cards support least resolution know matrox one , expensive cards know , support , isa \( s3 928 , , 4mb , eisa \) , premier \( s3 928 , , 4mb , isa vl \) \? also x servers unix pc support 24 bits \? happens , sgcs xserver \( x386 1 4 \) cards please email info sgcs com details thomas das , e mail roell sgcs com das , include sys pizza h es , es hat ja zeit
cardhu mcs dundee ac uk \( dominik \) subject need viewer gl files organization maths c dept , dundee university , scotland , uk lines 10 nntp posting host cardhu mcs dundee ac uk x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 hi , subject says pd viewer gl files \( x \) \? thanks dominik
fossi hab weimar de \( peter \) subject radiosity keywords radiosity , raytracing , rendering nntp posting host fossi hab weimar de organization fuer und weimar , germany lines 17 radiosity sources wanted ! ! ! read comp graphics group , never found something radiosity anybody interested \? would glad hear somebody looking source code radiosity method already read common literature , e g foley think little examples could help understand radiosity works common languages \( c , c , pascal \) prefered hope help ! peter
lancs ac uk \( one \) subject borland turbo c libraries s3 graphics card organization lancaster university computer society lines 5 've recently got hold pc s3 card , 'd like c programming , libraries let access high resolution modes available via borland turbo c \? andy
amann iam unibe ch \( stephan amann \) subject radiosity reply amann iam unibe ch organization university berne , institute computer science applied mathematics , special interest group computer graphics lines 54 article rz uni de , fossi hab weimar de \( peter \) writes radiosity sources wanted ! ! ! read comp graphics group , never found something radiosity anybody interested \? would glad hear somebody looking source code radiosity method already read common literature , e g foley think little examples could help understand radiosity works common languages \( c , c , pascal \) prefered hope help ! peter peter , 's radiosity package ahead problem miles sail let 's serious i'm working radiosity package , written c would like make public domain 'll announce c g minute finished good news bad news 'll take another 2 months \( least \) finish meantime may look file radiosity code tar z located compute1 cc ncsu edu \( locations look archie get nearest \) hope 'll help stephan stephan amann sig computer graphics , university berne , switzerland amann iam unibe ch tel 41 31 65 46 79 fax 41 31 65 39 65 projects radiosity , raytracing , computer graphics
chris zeus alta oh com \( chris murphy \) subject needed plotting package nntp posting host zeus alta oh com organization alta lines 38 article full gl dolphin pts mot com , full gl pts mot com \( glen fullmer \) writes looking graphics cad whatever package x unix box take file records like n b p n count integer entity string b entity b string p type string produce networked graph nodes represented boxes circles vertices represented lines width line determined n would different line type type boxes need identified entity 's name number entities 1000 vertices would nice tool minimized line cross good job layout \) looked faq comp graphics gnuplot without success ideas would appreciated \? thanks , glen fullmer , glen fullmer pts mot com , \( 407 \) 364 3296 hi , see roger 's response help network visualization comp graphics visualization amongst things , exactly ! chris murphy chris alta oh com \( 614 \) 792 2222 columbus oh
sean mcmains mcmains unt edu subject rumours 3do \? \? \? x xxmessage id seanmac acs unt edu x xxdate mon , 19 apr 93 15 22 26 gmt organization university north texas x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d20 lines 83 first thanks filled existence 68070 assumed particular number would reserved enhancements motorola line , rather another company ah , well , guess 's get assume computer industry operate logical manner ! \) article 1993apr16 212441 34125 rchland ibm com ricardo hernandez muchado , ricardo rchland vnet ibm com writes sean , n't want get 'mini war' going say , little bit skeptic performance claiming centris , 'll see \( please , flames , reserve c \) \) chicago last consumer electronics show , apple booth walked , showing real time video capture using \( supermac \? \) card digitize make right spot quicktime movies think quicktime using old one \( 1 5 \) version 1 5 quicktime , stated , current version software older version 1 0 , 1 6 horizon distant future digitized guy talking something played back quite nicely real time guy expanded window \( resized \) \( 320 think \) frame rate decreased enough notice n't 30fps \( 30fps \) anymore dropped like 15 fps increased bit , dropped 10 12 fps quicktime much better job playing back movies size playing back resized movies apparently process expanding frame 's image dithering resultant bitmap appropriate bit depth pretty processor intensive work pretty well showing movies double size , drop 1 9x size increase 2 1x size , performance suffers dramatically asked mac using using quadra \( n't know model , 900 \? \) , telling guys quicktime could play back speed even lcii lied \) quicktime cpu dependent probably confused fact qt locked internal , play amount time machine however , lc drop frames order keep sound video centris quadras similar cpus thus boast similar performance , though quadras bit faster due marginally faster clock speeds somewhat different architecture well , spoiled claim say , since 68040 quadra mac little bit trouble n't even hardisk ! memory ! could saw either newer version quicktime , hardware assisted centris , another software product running animation \( like supposedly macromind 's accelerator \? \) \? expect version quicktime software saw 1 0 using 1 5 one new v1 5 allows video nearly twice size frame rate version 1 0 could handle centris 650 saw plain vanilla , exception nice speakers playing sound , software movie player , qt player apple includes software n't misunderstand , want clarify problem still surprises quicktime able things well sean mcmains check gopher phone 817 565 2039 university north texas new bands info server fax 817 565 p box seanmac acs unt edu e mail denton tx mcmains unt edu
clldomps cs ruu nl \( louis van dompselaar \) subject images earth organization utrecht university , dept computer science lines 17 hawnews watson ibm com ricky watson ibm com \( rick turner \) writes look pub space directory ames arc nasa gov number earth images may hunt around subdirectories things tend filed mission \( ie , apollo \) rather image subject n't need 24 bit , got 32 colour amiga iff earth \( scanned \) looks okay mapped sphere e mail 'll send louis i'm hanging words , living breath , feeling skin , always \? room dm
boebert sctc com \( earl boebert \) subject removing distortion bitmapped drawings \? organization sctc lines 47 let 's say scanned image line drawing case boat , could anything drawing set reference points whose true x , positions known digitize drawing manually \( case , using 's excellent digitize program \) , use program converts cursor positions x , saves values click mouse upon digitizing notice reference point values come digitizing process differ small significant ways known true values understandable scanned drawing reproduction original successive sources distortion differential expansion contraction paper , errors introduced printing process , scanner errors errors uniform entire drawing , global adjustments stretching contracting uniformly x , rotating whole drawing , satisfactory question kind soul know algorithm removing distortion \? particular , three sets points reference \( x , \) \( known true values \) \( x , \) \( points , known errors \) distorteddata \( x , \) \( points , unknown errors \) function reference distorted could apply distorteddata remove errors suspect problem could solved treating distorted reference points resulting projection bumpy 3d surface , solving surface flattening remove errors data points kind informed soul ideas , better yet , pointers treatments similar problems \? thanks , earl
edb tih \( , \) subject help ! ! ! grasp reply edb tih posting front end conference v 92 05 15 1 20 \( running ms windows \) lines 13 hi ! could anyone tell 's possible save frame gl \( grasp \) animation gif , jpg , iff picture formats \( 've got animations 'd like transfer amiga \) really hope someone help cheers trondheim college engineering , trondheim , norway
lioness maple circa ufl edu subject comp graphics programmer organization center instructional research computing activities lines 68 reply lioness ufcc ufl edu nntp posting host maple circa ufl edu article andreasa 157 dhhalden , andreasa dhhalden \( andreas arff \) writes hello netters sorry , n't know right way kind thing , probably cfv , since n't tha ability create news group , want start discussion enjoy reading c g much , often find difficult sort i'm interested everything screen drivers , graphics cards , graphics programming graphics programs 'd like comp graphics programmer news group think sounds wonderful , seems one either wants spend time , n't power example , would like see comp graphics architecture like comp graphics algorithms 2d comp graphics algorithms 3d comp graphics algorithms misc comp graphics hardware comp graphics misc comp graphics software apps however , almost overkill something like would probably make everyone lot happier comp graphics programmer comp graphics hardware comp graphics apps comp graphics misc would nice see specialized groups devote 2d , 3d , morphing , raytracing , image processing , interactive graphics , toolkits , languages , object systems , etc could posted relevant group mailing list organized way someone reads news n't see subject headings , rather disparate system specific stuff \( comp sys comp os \? \? \? programmer \) need help programming gl programming information \? fast sprites pc hardware technical stuff speed weitek p9000 drivers speedstar 24x applications oriented stuff 3 0 help good \? best image processing program amiga programming oriented stuff fast polygon routine needed good morphing wanted best depth sort triangles \? c library get \? wish someone power would get cfd cfv going stuff newsgroup needs brian
sean whiting mcs com \( sean gum \) subject cview answers organization whiting corporation , harvey , illinois x newsreader tin 1 1 pl4 lines 23 bryanw rahul net \( bryan woodworth \) writes 1993apr16 2246 whiting mcs com sean whiting mcs com \( sean gum \) writes stupid question , cview run get \? still need gif viewer linux \( without x windows \) thanks ! ho boy way hell going able view gifs graphics linux without x windows ! love linux easy learn want text \? okay use linux want text graphics \? use linux x windows simple painless required x windows want graphics ! includes fancy word processors like doc , image viewers like xv , etc ummm , beg differ kind soul sent program called dpg view exactly want , view gif images linux without x windows , support way 1024x768 biggest complaint painfully slow takes 1 minute display image use cshow dos takes split second idea slow linux \? anybody anything better \? plus , anybody docs dpg view \? thanks !
tamvm1 tamu edu subject help ! need 3 graphics code package dos ! ! ! organization texas university lines 32 nntp posting host tamvm1 tamu edu article 1993apr19 ugle unit razor unit \( \) writes tamvm1 tamu edu wrote help ! ! need code package whatever take 3 data turn wireframe surface hidden lines removed i'm using dos machine , code ansi c c , ansi fortran basic data i'm using forms rectangular grid general interest question thank ! ! ! ! ! ! i'm afraid reply n't get thru appreciate trying reply , however please try
rdd uts ipp garching mpg de \( reinhard drube \) subject postscript drawing prog organization rechenzentrum der max planck garching lines 17 article mentor cc purdue edu , cv4 chem purdue edu \( nishantha \) writes could somebody let know drawing utility used manipulate postscript files specifically interested drawing lines , boxes sort postscript contour plots tried xfig impressed 's features however use since cannot use postscript files input programme utility converts postscript xfig format \? help would greatly appreciated nishantha think optimistic ! postscript big language fig format able interpreter arbitrary ps code program know manipulate postscript files use xfig include postscript files \( converted format \) small changes possible \( erasing letters , adding text \) reinhard
cooper ! \( andrew \) subject siggraph conference understanding images keywords graphics animation nyc acm siggraph organization online systems development \( ny , ny \) lines 140 nyc acm siggraph understanding images subject pace university siggraph conference understanding images purpose conference bring together breadth disciplines , including physical , biological computational sciences , technology , art , psychology , philosophy , education , order define discuss issues essential image understanding within computer graphics context featured topics include psychology perception image analysis design text sound philosophy date friday saturday , 21 22 may 1993 time 9 00 6 00 pm place pace downtown theater one pace plaza \( street park row gold street \) ny , ny fees pre registration \( prior 1 may 1993 \) members 55 00 non members 75 00 students 40 00 \( proof f status required \) registration \( 1 may 1993 site \) attendees 95 00 \( registration fee includes , breaks lunch \) send registration information fees dr francis computer science department nyc acm siggraph conference pace university 1 pace plaza \( room \) new york ny voice \( 212 \) 346 fax \( 212 \) 346 1933 email bitnet registration information name title company street address city state zip day phone \( \) evening phone \( \) fax phone \( \) email detailed description artists , designers , scientists , engineers educators share problem moving information one mind another traditionally , used pictures , words , demonstrations , music dance communicate imagery however , expressing complex notions god infinity seemingly well defined concept flower present challenges far exceed technical skills explosive use computers visualization expression tools problem hypermedia , multimedia virtual reality systems vast amounts information confront observer participant multitude simultaneous images sounds possibly unfamiliar , user asks mean \? since image construction , transmission , reception , ultimate understanding complex tasks , strongly influenced physiology , education culture , since electronic media radically amplify processing step , , electronic , must determine fundamental paradigms imagery understanding therefore , purpose conference bring together breadth disciplines , including , limited , physical , biological computational sciences , technology , art , psychology , philosophy , education , order define discuss issues essential image understanding within computer graphics context featured speakers include psychology perception marc de may , university beverly j jones , university oregon barbara , university michael j , mit tom , ohio state university image analysis rao , ibm watson research center , smith college hu , university illinois , university illinois les , university toledo design mark , university illinois , mit text xia lin , pace university john , hunter college jong ding wang , hunter college , co sound matthew , university texas robert wyatt , center high performance computing robert williams , pace university stuart , nynex philosophy michael heim , education foundation
sgoldste aludra usc edu \( fogbound child \) subject fake virtual reality organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 31 nntp posting host aludra usc edu mike mindlink bc ca \( mike \) writes ridiculous example vr exploitation 've seen far virtual reality clothing company recently opened vancouver far tell 's another clothes spot although would interesting selling virtual clothing e mail want dig phone probably get promotional lit understand couple la billing virtual reality parties hear project gif images around walls , well run animations newtek toaster seems like need adopt term really virtual reality something , except non stuff virtually really virtual reality etc mp \( 8 \) samuel pratice safe signature ! prevent dangerous signature virii ! names shouted certain dawn message summons must moment , beginning , could said somehow missed
sloan cis uab edu \( kenneth sloan \) subject removing distortion bitmapped drawings \? organization cis , university alabama birmingham lines 135 article 1993apr19 sctc com boebert sctc com \( earl boebert \) writes let 's say scanned image line drawing case boat , could anything drawing set reference points whose true x , positions known digitize drawing manually \( case , using 's excellent digitize program \) , use program converts cursor positions x , saves values click mouse upon digitizing notice reference point values come digitizing process differ small significant ways known true values understandable scanned drawing reproduction original successive sources distortion differential expansion contraction paper , errors introduced printing process , scanner errors errors uniform entire drawing , global adjustments stretching contracting uniformly x , rotating whole drawing , satisfactory question kind soul know algorithm removing distortion \? particular , three sets points reference \( x , \) \( known true values \) \( x , \) \( points , known errors \) distorteddata \( x , \) \( points , unknown errors \) function reference distorted could apply distorteddata remove errors suspect problem could solved treating distorted reference points resulting projection bumpy 3d surface , solving surface flattening remove errors data points helps idea source distortion least reasonable model class distortion short description process use questions , feel free poke via e mail assume locally smooth distortion 0 \) compute delaunay triangulation \( x , \) points defines set neighbors point data naturally convex , may long edges convex hull consider deleting edges 1 \) , two goals \) move distorteddata \( x , \) reference \( x , \) b \) keep length \( e \) \( measured current \( x , \) 's \) close possible \( e \) \( measured using digitized \( x , \) 's \) 2 \) every point , compute displacement based \) b \) example \) \( x , \) points know reference \( x , \) , move \( reference \( x , \) current \( x , \) \) slowly move \( x , \) towards reference \( x , \) b \) points , examine current length edge edge , compute displacement would make edge correct length \( correct \) take vector sum edge , move point keep triangulated mesh consistent digitized mesh 3 \) iterate 2 \) happy \( example , point moves much \) need determined experimentation consider much believe reference \( x , \) e , absolutely insist final points exactly matching references , want balance error matching reference changes length edges warning couple geometric must observed \( essentially , ca n't allow convex hull change , ca n't allow triangles fold neighboring triangles handled either special case checks motion individual points , periodically points \( using current positions still calculating original positions first , triangulation time , motivated try change code working production mode 5 years , might go back every compute power know , might consider every point interact every point first read linear solutions n body problem lots papers last 10 years siggraph proceedings springs , constraints , energy calculations relevant method described , less detail inproceedings , author sloan , jr , kenneth r david meyers christine curcio , title reconstruction display retina , booktitle proceedings graphics interface '86 vision interface '86 , address vancouver , canada , pages 385 389 , month may , year 1986 , author christine curcio kenneth r sloan david meyers , title computer methods sampling , reconstruction , display , analysis retinal whole mounts , number tr 87 12 03 , institution department computer science , university washington , address seattle , wa , month december , year 1987 article , author christine curcio kenneth r sloan david meyers , title computer methods sampling , reconstruction , display , analysis retinal whole mounts , journal vision research , volume 29 , number 5 , pages 529 540 , year 1989 kenneth sloan computer information sciences sloan cis uab edu university alabama birmingham \( 205 \) 934 2213 campbell hall , uab station \( 205 \) 934 fax birmingham , al 35294 1170
rws cs arizona edu \( ronald w schmidt \) subject outlining spline surface keywords spline lines 38 year ago started work problem appeared simple turned quite difficult wondering anyone net seen problem \( hopefully \) published solutions problem draw outline surface defined two roughly parallel cubic splines inputs problem essentially starts two sets points set points edge object treat two dimensional , e extant edges , exists three dimensional space draw object 1 \) fit cubic spline points spline effectively computed sequence line segments approximating curve spline equal number segments assume nth segment along spline roughly , exactly , distance along spline reasonable measure 2 \) take segment \( n \) along spline match nth segment opposing spline use pair segments form two triangles filled color surface 3 \) depth sort triangles 4 \) take triangle sorted order , project onto 2d pixmap , draw color triangle take edge triangle along edge surface draw line along edge colored special edge color edge coloring step 4 heart problem idea effectively outline edge surface net result however generally lots breaks gaps edge surface reasons fairly complicated involve problems problems resulting projecting splines anything problem sounds familiar would appreciate knowing work area thanks
sp1marse \( marco seirio \) subject flat globe lines 13 x newsreader tin 1 1 pl3 anybody algorithm flattening globe , parametric surface , , would like take sheet paper knife able calculate must cut paper fold globe \( object \) marco seirio real life sp1marse caligula se
stgprao st unocal com \( richard ottolini \) subject images earth organization unocal corporation lines 16 article 1993apr19 cs ruu nl clldomps cs ruu nl \( louis van dompselaar \) writes hawnews watson ibm com ricky watson ibm com \( rick turner \) writes look pub space directory ames arc nasa gov number earth images may hunt around subdirectories things tend filed mission \( ie , apollo \) rather image subject n't need 24 bit , got 32 colour amiga iff earth \( scanned \) looks okay mapped sphere e mail 'll send beware one copyrighted image company generated known protect copyright image took hundreds man hours build source satellite images , unlikely competing images appear soon
tdawson engin umich edu \( chris herringshaw \) subject newsgroup split organization university michigan engineering , ann arbor lines 11 distribution world nntp posting host po engin umich edu concerning proposed newsgroup split , personally favor learn awful lot aspects graphics reading group , code hardware algorithms think making 5 different groups wate , result posts week per group kind like convenience one big forum discussing aspects graphics anyone else feel way \? curious daemon
thinman netcom com \( technically sweet \) subject surface intersections organization international foundation internal freedom lines 19 sp1marse \( marco seirio \) writes problem intersections two surfaces anybody easy understand algorithm maybe even c source \? \? marco seirio real life sp1marse caligula also severe problem news headers ftp cs purdue edu pub pull proxima tar z proxima ps z lance thinman netcom com data information knowledge wisdom
massey ac nz \( j \) subject page flipping vga 320x200x256 mode organization massey university , north , new zealand x reader netnews pc version 2c lines 12 help ! write second bank page memory vga 320x200x256 colour mode \? ie perform page flipping animation buffering screen tried using map mask registers , perform required task \( although something \) note must able work standard vga \( ie necessarily svga card \) many thanx advance andrew
pitt edu \( scott \) subject imagine organization university pittsburgh lines 16 hello netters , finally received information imagine pc presently shipping version 2 0 software release version 3 0 first quarter 1993 \( say \) upgrade 2 0 3 0 100 00 purchase imagine 2 0 , costs 495 00 upgrading another eligible \( call info \) modeler , 200 00 plus shipping handling requires pc 4 megs math coprocessor , dos 5 0 microsoft mouse svga card thanks replies product received many replies , money together , think take plunge thanks info impulse want find get sheet sent impulse inc avenue north minneapolis , mn 1 800 328 thanks replies scott scott pitt edu turn jack jack
dave mikelson almac co uk \( dave mikelson \) subject pcx distribution world organization almac bbs ltd 44 \( 0 \) 324 reply dave mikelson almac co uk \( dave mikelson \) lines 22 freenet carleton ca jw 1 \) book code teach jw read write pcx , , gif files \? jw 2 \) access extra ram paradise video board jw paging higher vga modes ie 320x200x256 jw 800x600x256 jw 3 \) anybody got line good book help answer question \? good graphics file formats , kay levine , isbn 0 8306 7 supercharged bitmapped graphics , , isbn 0 8306 5 programmer 's guide ega vga cards , ferraro , isbn 0 201 4 \( whole chapter paradise svga \) dave deluxe 386 1 12
gw wmich edu subject vga cables ! organization western michigan university lines 14 anyone know phone number place get vga \? want hook vga card xga card \( \) need cable connects type cable would connect vga card say video blaster something thanks brad
ferdinan oeinck waterland wlink nl \( ferdinand oeinck \) subject detecting double points bezier curves organization node groningen , nl lines 6 i'm looking information detecting calculating double point cusp bezier curve algorithm , literature reference mail appreciated , ferdinand
virginia edu \( andrew paul dickens \) subject computer graphics vcr \? organization university virginia lines 16 getting image computer monitor videotape harder looks standard vga ega outputs different ntsc format used equipment conversion , hard get hands costs quite bit access amiga computer , ntsc output , transfer certain types graphic files modem tape ntsc output unfortunately , would frame frame would lead unbelievably scratchy animation unless good amiga animation program otherwise , see local public access cable station equipment use
ricardo rchland vnet ibm com \( ricardo hernandez muchado \) subject newsgroup split disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host rchland ibm com organization ibm rochester lines 21 article 1quvdoinn3e7 srvr1 engin umich edu , tdawson engin umich edu \( chris herringshaw \) writes concerning proposed newsgroup split , personally favor learn awful lot aspects graphics reading group , code hardware algorithms think making 5 different groups wate , result posts week per group kind like convenience one big forum discussing aspects graphics anyone else feel way \? curious daemon agree new owner 320 1280 x , 200 600 256 , 000 colors 24 bit palette love ! new low fat sig n't e mail n't valid address send e mail
zyeh caspian usc edu \( zhenghao yeh \) subject ellipse organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 39 distribution world nntp posting host caspian usc edu keywords ellipse hi ! everyone , one touched problem posted last week , guess question clear 'd like describe detail offset ellipse locus center circle rolls ellipse words , distance ellipse offset everywhere problem comes geometric measurement probe used tip probe ball computer outputs positions ball 's center offset ellipse still ellipse \? answer ! ironically , american standard says ellipse almost software implemented base wrong software also sold imagine , many people suffer bug ! ! ! many qualified parts ellipse discarded \? importantly , many defective parts ellipse used \? employed consultant company los angeles last year specially solve problem spent two months analysis problem six months programming solution \( nonlinear \) ideal reconstruct ellipse entire half offset difficult find original ellipse quarter segment offset method used analytical wondering n't touch base make things complicated please give hint know may argue cg problem right , however , many people involved problem sphere 4 ellipse \? offset \? please post let others share interests \( got several emails netters , said need summary answers \) yeh usc
zyeh caspian usc edu \( zhenghao yeh \) subject newsgroup split organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 18 distribution world nntp posting host caspian usc edu article 1quvdoinn3e7 srvr1 engin umich edu , tdawson engin umich edu \( chris herringshaw \) writes concerning proposed newsgroup split , personally favor learn awful lot aspects graphics reading group , code hardware algorithms think making 5 different groups wate , result posts week per group kind like convenience one big forum discussing aspects graphics anyone else feel way \? curious daemon agree cause 'll try daemon \) yeh usc
ic sunysb edu \( john muller \) subject wayne rigby organization state university new york stony brook lines 20 distribution world nntp posting host ic sunysb edu sorry clog news group message wayne rigby , info requested , reason mail please contact ! send email address j real programmer function without caffeine zen art internet john muller muller diego llnl gov muller llnl gov ic sunysb edu drunk grab grass , keep grass falling earth stupid comedian
salestech com \( ray knight \) subject cview answers keywords stupid programming organization sales technologies , inc lines 19 nx10 mik uky edu \( bryan k williams \) writes majority users floppy well , us 1400 picture cd roms would like use cview fast works well , ca n't moron lacked foresight create temp file program 's path , current \? actually flexible way create temp files check temp tmp environment variable create files drive directory variable pretty much standard dos , windows os 2 applications say opinion bearing person organization including employer salestech com \( 404 \) 841 5316 sales technologies , inc
ani ms uky edu \( b \) subject help splitting trimming region along mesh organization university kentucky , dept math sciences lines 28 hi , problem , hope help solve background problem rectangular mesh uv domain , e mesh mapping 3d bezier patch 2d area domain inside trimming loop rendered trimming loop set 2d bezier curve segments sake notation mesh made cells problem trimming area split individual smaller cells bounded trimming curve segments cell wholly inside area output whole , else trivially rejected body know done , algo somewhere help would appreciated thanks , ani get human , stay cool , divine
jbulf balsa berkeley edu \( jeff bulf \) subject detecting double points bezier curves reply jbulf balsa berkeley edu \( jeff bulf \) organization kubota pacific computers inc lines 20 article ia522b1w165w oeinck waterland wlink nl , ferdinan oeinck waterland wlink nl \( ferdinand oeinck \) writes i'm looking information detecting calculating double point cusp bezier curve algorithm , literature reference mail appreciated , useful article one 1989 issues transactions graphics believe maureen stone one authors sorry specific n't reference article actually general , giving way decide whether given \( cubic \) bezier curve contains , intersection points whatever treatment also available siggraph 89 course notes course called math siggraph something like dr memory jbulf kpc com
subject video ualr edu organization university arkansas little rock nntp posting host athena ualr edu lines 40 article 1993apr18 nwnexus wa com , halcyon com \( lyall \) writes organization world information fingertips keywords article 628 toontown columbiasc ncr com craig toontown columbiasc ncr com \( craig williamson \) writes i'm getting ready buy multimedia workstation would like little advice need graphics card video windows originally thinking targa n't work windows cards looking \? thanks , craig forgive divine , craig williamson airhead human craig williamson columbiasc ncr com craig toontown columbiasc ncr com \( home \) perfect strangers craig , still consider targa run windows 3 1 time work works fine think need right driver josh west email halcyon com also puts two new products windows , model numbers , 15 bit video board 16bit yesterday looking product local software etc store media vision makes \( 32 , 768 color \) frame capture board stand alone doesnot use feature connector existing video card claims upto 30 fps live capture well single frame either composite ntsc video lewis ualr edu
eylerken stein u washington edu \( ken \) subject stand alone editing suite article shelley distribution world organization university washington , seattle lines 12 nntp posting host stein u washington edu need help upgrading animation video editing stand looking different type setups b roll cuts station would like controlled computer \( brand doesnt matter maybe mac , amiga \) low end high end system setups would helpful system use system might use , could mail system requirements , used , hardware software necessary set system need info , mail eylerken u washington edu thanks advance ken eylerken u washington edu
vma smsu edu ext \( corey webb \) subject help ! ! ! grasp organization southwest mo state univ lines 29 nntp posting host vma smsu edu x newsreader nnr vm 1 3 2 article 1993apr19 baron edb tih edb tih \( , \) writes could anyone tell 's possible save frame gl \( grasp \) animation gif , jpg , iff picture formats grasp animation system , yes , 's quite easy simply use glib extract image \( frame gl actually complete pcx clp file \) , use one many available utilities convert n't grasp package , i'm afraid ca n't help sorry way , ask , grasp \( graphics animation system professionals \) commercial product sells us 300 mail order companies 've seen , n't \) corey webb corey webb much wisdom much grief , vma smsu edu knowledge bitnet sorrow ecclesiastes 1 18 means first , experienced \? speaking hendrix
rgc3679 bcstec ca boeing com \( robert g carpenter \) subject please recommend 3d graphics library mac organization boeing lines 30 article 1993apr17 kth se d88 jwa hemul nada kth se \( jon wtte \) writes cellar org tsa cellar org \( silent assassin \) writes i'm building cad package need 3d graphics library handle rudimentry tasks , hidden line removal , shading , animation , etc please offer recommendations \? think something called full wire frame \( supposedly hidden line removal \) library think weighs 99 \( 've wrong order magnitude \) spoke author earlier today cost 299 , license royalties name eric johnson sacramento , ca phone 916 737 1550 n't email nice guy knowledgeable graphics seems like may decent package 's object pascal framework supposedly fairly complete set geometry creation classes i'm going check see 's got need cad package also found another package 3d graphic tools micro system options seattle number 206 868 , also email package strong ray tracing , i'm sure geometry creation tools also need look package also spoke author , mark owens , another nice guy seems know business price 249 , royalties bobc
rgc3679 bcstec ca boeing com \( robert g carpenter \) subject please recommend 3d graphics library mac organization boeing lines 35 article tamsun tamu edu brentb tamsun tamu edu \( brent \) writes tsa cellar org \( silent assassin \) writes rgc3679 bcstec ca boeing com \( robert g carpenter \) writes please offer recommendations \? 's really hard books explain everything , basic 3d functions , translation , rotation , shading , hidden line removal pretty easy wrote program weeks help book , would happy give source think wanted avoid reinventing wheel yes , want concentrate development issues 've created graphics libraries , 's time consuming life 's short ! also , quickdraw lot 3d functions built , think pascal access , would expect think c could well find use quickdraw graphics library , would excellent choice , since lot stuff , built mac , fast clarify , 3d routines mentioned various places mac , rom mac years ago knew anything implementing graphics , came across demo apple library actually lot however , quite limited sense 's low level 3d library code still plot individual points , draw line , etc ad nauseum nothing gl , example , handle objects thanks clarification posting original request looked mac 's 3d capabilities dismissed low grade bobc
microware com \( james jones \) subject rumours 3do \? \? \? nntp posting host snake organization microware systems corp , des moines , iowa lines 19 article 1993apr15 164940 11632 mercury unt edu sean mcmains mcmains unt edu writes article 1993apr15 144843 19549 rchland ibm com ricardo hernandez muchado , ricardo rchland vnet ibm com writes cd 's cpu n't help much either understand 68070 \( supposedly variation 68000 68010 \) running something like 7mhz speed , truly need sprites wow ! 68070 ! 'd interested get hands one , especially considering fact motorola yet released 68060 , supposedly next 680x0 lineup 8 n't get excited signetics , motorola , gave 68070 number 68070 , understand rightly , uses 68000 instruction set , chip serial port dma \( run 15 mhz i'm typing computer using 68070 running rate , know seriously doubt clock rate ricardo rchland vnet ibm com claims \) james jones
kaist ac kr \( \) subject wanted multi page gif ! ! organization korea advanced institute science technology x newsreader tin 1 1 pl3 lines 12 hi ! searching packages could handle multi page gif files ftp servers \? 'll appreciate one works pc \( either dos windows 3 0 3 1 \) package works unix ok thanks advance
orion oac uci edu \( john peter \) subject physics lab loses number ! ! ! ! nntp posting host orion oac uci edu summary need pointer address one weird graphics modes keywords vga lines 10 please , need starting address \( pointer \) beginning color information \( rgb \) vga mode \( 's 68 hex , gee , duh ! \) thanks soooo much \( hugs kisses \) advance john \( uci \) e mail orion oac uci edu
james kewageshig james kewageshig canrem com subject articles flocking \? reply james kewageshig james kewageshig canrem com organization canada remote systems distribution comp lines 17 hi , someone point towards articles flocking algorithms \? also , articles particle animation formulas would nice 0 0 james kewageshig uucp james kewageshig canrem com n e w r k v fidonet james kewageshig 1 229 15 0 0 deluxe 1 25 8086 head co xv hi signature virus co canada remote systems toronto , ontario 416 629 7000 629 7044
subject xv ms dos \? ! \? e mail address eicn etna ch organization eicn , switzerland lines 24 hi recently found xv ms dos subdirectory gnu cc \( \) use frequently xv sun spark station 1 never problems , start computer h option , display help menu start gif file hard disk turns 2 3 seconds prompt come back computer little 386 25 copro , 4 mega rams , tseng 4000 \( 1m \) running ms dos 5 0 himem sys emm386 sys go32 exe driver run know solution run xv \? \? \? help would thanx advance ! ! ! ! pascal perret perret eicn etna ch ecole ets \( available time \) 2400 le ! ! ! ! enjoy computer ! ! ! !
g9134255 wampyr cc uow edu au \( coronado emmanuel abad \) subject need polygon splitting algo organization university wollongong , nsw , australia lines 11 nntp posting host wampyr cc uow edu au keywords polygons , splitting , clipping idea clip one polygon using another polygon \( necessarily rectangular \) window problem finding new vertices resulting first one simply matter extending usual algorithm whereby edges one polygon checked another polygon \? \? \? simpler way \? \? comments welcome noel
vaxc cc monash edu au \( myles \) subject j c jensen 's bitmap code organization computer centre , monash university , australia lines 18 greetings according faq read , 30 july 1992 , joshua c jensen posted article bitmap manipulation \( specifically , scaling perspective \) newsgroup rec games programmer \( article \) article included source code turbo pascal inline assembly language unable find archive newsgroup , current email address joshua c jensen anyone details , copy code , could please let know many thanks gratefully , etc myles myles email myles lib monash edu au raytracing fan phone 61 51 got urgent grasp reality cardboard cut proud team , reaper man terry pratchett
markus octavia anu edu au \( markus buchhorn \) subject hdf readers viewers organization australian national university , canberra lines 22 distribution world nntp posting host 150 203 5 35 originator markus octavia wrote g 'day , anybody point utility read convert crop whatnot display hdf image files \? 've look hdf stuff ncsa must take award odd directory structure , strange storage approaches documentation \) since turned mirror sites looked fooled restructuring original site zaphod ncsa uiuc edu hence mess pointer get started ta cheers markus markus buchhorn , parallel computing research facility email markus octavia anu edu au australian national university , canberra , 0200 , australia international 61 6 , australia 06 phone , fax
wvnvms wvnet edu subject motion video card yuv rgb \? organization west virginia network educational telecomputing lines 21 trying convert motion \( ibm \) video file format yuv rgb data portion byte 0 255 v byte 127 127 color u v intensity anyone ideas programs \? someone tell get info u v television signal \? need info reply e mail address basically converting digital ntsc format rgb \( vga \) displaying captured video pictures thanks u byte 127 127
ls \( pavel \) subject tseng et4000 pixel clock organization technical university , czech republic keywords et4000 svga pixel clock summary anybody knows set et4000 svga pixel clock \? lines 19 would like program tseng et4000 nonstandard 1024x768 mode switching standard 1024x768 mode using bios changing timing details \( registers \) n't know select 36 mhz pixel clock need bios function selects 40 mhz anybody knows obtain technical info also interested technical information tseng et4000 trident 8900 9000 chipsets thanks much pavel dept comp sci eng technical university 2 cs 612 66 czech republic e mail fee cs
scott osi com \( scott fleming \) subject sun ipx root window display background picture keywords sun ipx background picture organization objective systems , folsom ca lines 22 hello netters ! fairly weak question ask everybody netland 've looked though last faq comp graphics n't find answer thus post 'll keep short question display raster files , gif files , iff tiff images root window background \? sun ipc , openwindows 3 0 , sun os 4 1 3 helps 've compiled pov sun would like display work done background tile thanks help information provide good day scott fleming osi p 's people provided pov , great !
markus octavia anu edu au \( markus buchhorn \) subject hdf readers viewers organization australian national university , canberra lines 33 distribution world nntp posting host 150 203 5 35 originator markus octavia g 'day , anybody point utility read convert crop whatnot display hdf image files \? 've look hdf stuff ncsa must take award odd directory structure , strange storage approaches documentation \) part problem want look large \( 5mb \) hdf files crop section ideally would like type utility , use pbmplus stuff quite convert cropped part another format viewing animation otherwise , someone please explain set ncsa visualisation w hdf \( 3 2 r5 3 \) cropping etc suns sunos 4 1 2 help greatly appreciated ta ! cheers , markus markus buchhorn , parallel computing research facility email markus octavia anu edu au australian national university , canberra , 0200 , australia international 61 6 , australia 06 phone , fax markus buchhorn , parallel computing research facility email markus octavia anu edu au australian national university , canberra , 0200 , australia international 61 6 , australia 06 phone , fax
se92psh brunel ac uk \( peter hauke \) subject grayscale printer organization brunel university , uxbridge , uk x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 distribution na lines 13 jian lu \( jian coos dartmouth edu \) wrote interested purchasing grayscale printer offers good grayscale medical images anybody give recommendations products market , particular , 5000 \? thank advice peter hauke brunel university se92psh brunel ac uk
joachim kih \( joachim lous \) subject tiff philosophical significance 42 organization kongsberg lines 30 nntp posting host samson kih x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 ulrich galki toppoint de wrote according tiff 5 0 specification , tiff version number \( bytes 2 3 \) 42 chosen deep philosophical significance first read , finally philosphy technical spec still wondered makes 42 significant last week , read hitchhikers guide galaxy , second time \( millions years calculation , second best computer time reveals 42 answer question life , universe everything \) actually picked number 42 \? yes anyone suggestions 42 came \? n't know douglas adams took , i'm pretty sure 's one launched \( guide \) since 's showing place l one thing sure sheep \) \( \) \( \( \) \) \) \( \) \( \) creature earth \) \( joachim kih back masking ii' robert fripp
kih \( ove \) subject need viewer gl files organization kongsberg college engineering lines 16 distribution world nntp posting host knoll kih article dux dundee ac uk , cardhu mcs dundee ac uk \( dominik \) writes subject says pd viewer gl files \( x \) \? try \( filename v1 1 tar z lots bases \) ove think x \( yep , \) \? real life \? ove , ford kongsberg college engineering , norway email kih
max slinky nyu edu \( david max \) subject 24bit mode speedstar 24x summary routines 24 bit color speedstar 24x \? keywords diamond speedstar 24x 24bit 16 7 organization new york university lines 12 diamond speedstar 24x board want program 24 bit 640x480 graphics , possibly 800x600 16 bit color anybody libraries supporting modes board \? even simple routines set graphics mode plot individual pixels would great help plan use routines thanks advance please respond also via e mail david max max slinky cs nyu edu
bbn com \( dick \) subject flat globe lines 17 nntp posting host bbn com sp1marse \( marco seirio \) writes anybody algorithm flattening globe , parametric surface , , would like take sheet paper knife able calculate must cut paper fold globe \( object \) library map projections charon er usgs gov pub 4 1 3 tar z
ricky watson ibm com \( rick turner \) subject motion video card yuv rgb \? disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host ibm com organization ibm uk labs lines 3 'll contact offline rick
wdm world std com \( wayne michael \) subject xv ms dos \? ! \? organization n lines 12 e mail address eicn etna ch writes hi recently found xv ms dos subdirectory gnu cc \( \) please tell ftp 'd \? would like copy \( would mailed , post indicates mail address \) wayne michael wdm world std com
ricardo rchland vnet ibm com \( ricardo hernandez muchado \) subject rumours 3do \? \? \? disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host rchland ibm com organization ibm rochester lines 35 article 1993apr19 microware com , microware com \( james jones \) writes article 1993apr15 164940 11632 mercury unt edu sean mcmains mcmains unt edu writes article 1993apr15 144843 19549 rchland ibm com ricardo hernandez muchado , ricardo rchland vnet ibm com writes cd 's cpu n't help much either understand 68070 \( supposedly variation 68000 68010 \) running something like 7mhz speed , truly need sprites wow ! 68070 ! 'd interested get hands one , especially considering fact motorola yet released 68060 , supposedly next 680x0 lineup 8 n't get excited signetics , motorola , gave 68070 number 68070 , understand rightly , uses 68000 instruction set , chip serial port dma \( run 15 mhz i'm typing computer using 68070 running rate , know seriously doubt clock rate ricardo rchland vnet ibm com claims \) james jones 68070 run upto n't mean cd running speed said understand 68070 running something like 7mhz sure , think read long time ago anyway , still , need sprites lot tricks making cool awesome games \( read psygnosis \) new owner 320 1280 x , 200 600 256 , 000 colors 24 bit palette love ! new low fat sig n't e mail n't valid address send e mail
nerone ccwf cc utexas edu \( michael nerone \) subject newsgroup split organization university texas austin lines 25 distribution world 1993apr19 unocal com 1quvdoinn3e7 srvr1 engin umich edu nntp posting host sylvester cc utexas edu reply tdawson engin umich edu 's message 19 apr 1993 19 43 52 gmt article 1quvdoinn3e7 srvr1 engin umich edu , tdawson engin umich edu \( chris herringshaw \) writes ch concerning proposed newsgroup split , personally ch favor learn awful lot aspects ch graphics reading group , code hardware ch algorithms think making 5 different groups ch wate , result posts week per group ch kind like convenience one big forum ch discussing aspects graphics anyone else feel way \? ch curious must agree number c amiga newsgroups already addition , issues fall cleanly one categories also , readily observable current spectrum amiga groups already plagued mega crossposting thus group split would , likelihood , bring structured environment michael nerone shall customary lack tact internet address since asked , obliged nerone ccwf cc utexas edu pardon , fictional char galileo
ab nova cc purdue edu \( allen b \) subject tiff philosophical significance 42 organization purdue university lines 19 article 1993apr14 samba oit unc edu cptully med unc edu \( christopher p , pathology , \) writes tight \? matter , , gripe problems \? also , important , volunteer help define critique spec 've got 6 0 spec \( obviously since quoted last posting \) gripe tiff 's far complicated nearly infinitely easier write read , think hurts acceptance anything need read images \( e g , paint programs \) nutshell , n't think tiff unless fat trimmed significantly would n't tiff anymore keep trying cut back , 's late maybe fix , change magic number signify lack compatibility would probably make happy ab
cgcad bart inescn pt \( comp graphics cad \) subject fonts pov \? \? nntp posting host bart organization porto , portugal lines 27 hi rtrace ray tracer supports 3d text primitive , collections spheres , cylinders 3d chars made lines splines please look asterix inescn pt 192 35 246 17 directory pub rtrace pub rtrace tmp demo images high quality text called text \? jpg \( jpeg encoded \) see first tell think regards , antonio n e c antonio costa e mail acc asterix inescn pt porto inescn pt comp graphics cad decnet porto costa largo 22 uucp mcvax , ! 4100 porto portugal bell 351 02 let good times roll
cgcad bart inescn pt \( comp graphics cad \) subject rtrace 8 2 0 keywords ray tracing nntp posting host bart organization porto , portugal lines 83 new version rtrace ray tracing package \( 8 2 0 \) asterix inescn pt 192 35 246 17 directory pub rtrace check readme file rtrace use suit toolkit nice user interface compile modify makefile suit available suit uvacs cs virginia edu binaries rtrace suit sun sparc , sgi indigo dos go32 please contact interested mac rtrace 1 0 port directory pub rtrace macintosh thanks reid judd \( reid judd east sun com \) greg \( function mps ohio state edu \) small changes done since version 8 1 0 , mainly 1 possible discard polygons triangles fast preview 2 support program use temp files goes short description current converters cad molecular chemistry packages scn format package programs related \( marked modified \) irit nff \( , \) v v rtrace alchemy scn pic ppm cpp pdb chemical 3d studio iris inventor dos port rtrace pub rtrace pc 386 \( arj , arj arj \) see readme file requires djgpp go32 dos extender \( version 1 09 included \) , found directory pub pc djgpp \( many sites around netland \) also demo scenes , manuals source code please feel free get use hope like regards , antonio costa n e c antonio costa e mail acc asterix inescn pt comp graphics cad decnet porto largo 22 uucp mcvax , ! 4100 porto portugal bell 351 02 let good times roll
clldomps cs ruu nl \( louis van dompselaar \) subject images earth organization utrecht university , dept computer science lines 16 1993apr19 unocal com stgprao st unocal com \( richard ottolini \) writes beware one copyrighted image company generated known protect copyright image took hundreds man hours build source satellite images , unlikely competing images appear soon sue newspaper got printing article n't say anything copyrights louis i'm hanging words , living breath , feeling skin , always \? room dm
bosch rz uni karlsruhe de \( gerhard bosch \) subject newsgroup split organization university karlsruhe , germany lines 55 distribution world nntp posting host hp2 uni karlsruhe de mime version 1 0 content type text plain charset iso 8859 1 content transfer encoding 8bit article nerone sylvester cc utexas edu , nerone ccwf cc utexas edu \( michael nerone \) writes article 1quvdoinn3e7 srvr1 engin umich edu , tdawson engin umich edu \( chris herringshaw \) writes ch concerning proposed newsgroup split , personally ch favor learn awful lot aspects ch graphics reading group , code hardware ch algorithms think making 5 different groups ch wate , result posts week per group ch kind like convenience one big forum ch discussing aspects graphics anyone else feel way \? ch curious must agree number c amiga newsgroups already addition , issues fall cleanly one categories also , readily observable current spectrum amiga groups already plagued mega crossposting thus group split would , likelihood , bring structured environment michael nerone shall customary lack tact internet address since asked , obliged nerone ccwf cc utexas edu pardon , fictional char galileo hi , might nice know , 's possible different hard ware platforms usually hard ware fixed \( case either unix dos pc \) i'm much interested amiga news case software , wo n't get comercial software mentioned newgroup run unix platform , i'm interested information would suggest split group n't see problem cross posting need read 2 newgroups half size would important faq would reduce traffic lot sincerely , gerhard i'm writing person , reflecting opinions inst , university karlsruhe , land baden , federal republic germany european community address phone number get touch everything i'm saying , writing typing always wrong ! \( statement necessary avoid law suits \) dipl ing gerhard bosch sc voice \( 0721 \) 608 institute fax \( 0721 \) 608 university karlsruhe , 12 , 7500 karlsruhe , germany internet bosch hp2 uni karlsruhe de bitnet bitnet
mini csd4 csd uwm edu \( \) subject wanted info image databases organization computing services division , university wisconsin milwaukee lines 15 distribution world nntp posting host 129 89 7 4 originator mini csd4 csd uwm edu guess subject says would like references introductory material image databases please send pointers mini point cs uwm edu thanx advance ! mini mini point cs uwm edu mini csd4 csd uwm edu
cray com \( gordon phillips \) subject lamb minivas 2 control abekas originator lines 12 nntp posting host cray com organization cray research , inc minivas 2 want record abekas functions working go set record minivas hangs sending abekas time code anyone code compare done ftp site minivas abekas code gordon phillips cray com gordon phillips cray com
sigma rahul net \( kevin martin \) subject stay away mag ! ! ! nntp posting host bolero organization a2i network lines 10 vm1 cc edu vm1 cc edu \( steve \) writes mag mx15f works fine mine beautiful year half went bought viewsonic instead another great monitor , imho kevin martin sigma rahul net gotta get another hat
capelli vnet ibm com \( ron capelli \) subject detecting double points bezier curves disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , ibm news software ureply 3 1 lines 16 ia522b1w165w oeinck waterland wlink nl ferdinand oeinck writes i'm looking information detecting calculating double point cusp bezier curve see maureen stone tony derose , geometric characterization parametric cubic curves , acm tog , vol 8 , 3 , july 1989 , pp 147 163 ron capelli ibm corp dept , ms capelli vnet ibm com po box 950 \( 914 \) 435 , ny answers , cross references
oberto genes icgeb trieste \( jacques oberto \) subject help ! ! ! grasp organization icgeb lines 33 vma smsu edu ext \( corey webb \) writes article 1993apr19 baron edb tih edb tih \( , \) writes could anyone tell 's possible save frame gl \( grasp \) animation gif , jpg , iff picture formats grasp animation system , yes , 's quite easy simply use glib extract image \( frame gl actually complete pcx clp file \) , use one many available utilities convert n't grasp package , i'm afraid ca n't help sorry way , ask , grasp \( graphics animation system professionals \) commercial product sells us 300 mail order companies 've seen , n't \) corey webb several public domain utilities available usual archive site allow single frames gl file , check directories grasp problem clp files generate cannot decoded many pd format converters used hint welcome ! let know problems locating utilities hope helps jacques oberto oberto genes icgeb trieste
sigma rahul net \( kevin martin \) subject tiff philosophical significance 42 nntp posting host bolero organization a2i network lines 14 ratatosk joachim kih \( joachim lous \) writes anyone suggestions 42 came \? n't know douglas adams took , i'm pretty sure 's one launched \( guide \) since 's showing place douglas adams said \( paraphrased memory \) picked seemed like sort number would n't afraid take home meet parents nice even , perfectly normal kevin martin sigma rahul net gotta get another hat
sigma rahul net \( kevin martin \) subject xv ms dos \? ! \? nntp posting host bolero organization a2i network lines 11 1993apr20 260 eicn etna ch e mail address eicn etna ch writes know solution run xv \? \? \? help would would guess requires x , almost certainly dv x , commonly uses go32 \( djgpp \) setup programs n't dv x running , ca n't get anything requires interfacing x kevin martin sigma rahul net gotta get another hat
unix brighton ac uk \( koon tang \) subject postscript driver organization univerity brighton , u k lines 15 anybody know get , via anonymous ftp otherwise , postscript driver graphics libraries 3 0a \? vax vms looking way plots postscript file thanks advance koon tang , internet unix ac uk department mathematical sciences , uucp uknet ! ! university brighton , brighton , , u k
engr ucdavis edu \( jason \) subject info medical imaging systems organization college engineering university california davis lines 10 hi , anyone medical imaging \? good ray tracing background , i'm interested field could point sources \? better yet , experience , want talk 's going 're working \? thanks , jason
syma sussex ac uk \( tarrant \) subject paradise vga organization university sussex lines 13 paradise svga 1mb , chip \( 1d \) docs say display following modes colours cols ramdac hicolor chip checked board chip , problem ca n't get mode work ! graphics workshop 6 1 claims display 24 bit images dithered 15 bit colour board , n't work tried writing assembler code get modes working found pixel addressed word \( 16 bit \) , lower 8 bits considered \( happens 800x600 mode , 640x480 mode refuses work e remains text mode \) could someone please help
ccu umanitoba ca \( helmut \) subject anti aliasing utility wanted nntp posting host murphy biochem umanitoba ca organization university manitoba lines 10 currently using povray mac wondering anyone netland knows public domain anti aliasing utilities skip step pov , slow machine suggestions , opinions post trace anti aliasing would greatly appreciated helmut dept biochemistry molecular biology university manitoba winnipeg , canada ccu umanitoba ca
rigel tamu edu \( preston , lisa \) subject another cview question \( cview answers \) organization texas university , academic computing services lines 12 distribution world nntp posting host rigel tamu edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 anybody gotten cview work 32k 64k color mode trident 8900c hi color card \? best colors come screwed , worst program hangs loaded vesa driver , thing happens 2 different machines n't work trident , anybody know viewer \? thanx ! lisa
tdawson llullaillaco engin umich edu \( chris herringshaw \) subject sun ipx root window display background picture organization university michigan engineering , ann arbor lines 15 distribution world nntp posting host llullaillaco engin umich edu keywords sun ipx background picture originator tdawson llullaillaco engin umich edu i'm sure got information looking , 'll post anyway general public load image root window add line end xsession file xloadimage gif file name assuming course xloadimage client , switches , think pretty much explain going leave , terminal locks till kill \( already knew though \) hope helps daemon
lasse mits mdata fi \( lasse \) subject wanted multi page gif ! ! organization oy , helsinki , finland nntp posting host mits mdata fi lines 16 article 1993apr20 kaist ac kr kaist ac kr \( \) writes hi ! searching packages could handle multi page gif files looking viewer try \) ' ` ` ' lasse mits mdata fi ` '
tdawson llullaillaco engin umich edu \( chris herringshaw \) subject ray tracer ms dos \? organization university michigan engineering , ann arbor lines 9 distribution world nntp posting host llullaillaco engin umich edu originator tdawson llullaillaco engin umich edu sorry repeat request , anyone know good free shareware program create ray traces save bit mapped files \? \( course thing \) thanks advance daemon
cco caltech edu \( mark adler \) subject images earth organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 8 nntp posting host sandman caltech edu sue newspaper got printing article n't say anything copyrights i'm sure whole newspaper copyrighted could gotten permission use image copyright mark
stgprao st unocal com \( richard ottolini \) subject images earth organization unocal corporation lines 39 article 1993apr20 cs ruu nl clldomps cs ruu nl \( louis van dompselaar \) writes 1993apr19 unocal com stgprao st unocal com \( richard ottolini \) writes beware one copyrighted image company generated known protect copyright image took hundreds man hours build source satellite images , unlikely competing images appear soon sue newspaper got printing article n't say anything copyrights \( 1 \) explicit \( c \) necessary image attributed geosphere company , likelihood permission given reprint \( 2 \) unlikely owner go individuals however , interesting images make way ads computer demos pirate might get image considered interesting many people would like use whenever global map needed , lots temptation \( 3 \) one mail person said since source data satellite imagery copyrighted , derived image ca n't true new , distinctive , creative expression data protected image certainly fits , since one else taken tremendous effort create precedent recent telephone book court case bell tried copyright data books prevent competitors copying \( trick entries book \) court permitted copyright expression data , data \( cant xerox sell telephone book \) \( 4 \) attention digital copyrights future computer becomes mass product bill gates currently digital copyrights \( 5 \) 'd prefer geosphere put data public domain interesting others , 's way things
imp sim es com \( david \) subject images earth organization evans sutherland computer corp , salt lake city , ut lines 20 distribution world reply imp sim es com \( david \) nntp posting host imp sim es com downloaded image earth constructed elevation data taken 1 2 degree author \( \) wrote c code \( included \) read data file generated b w pseudo color images work well copyright aminet site near called earth lha amiga pix misc area refer included docs details author \( sorry , forget name \) created images raw data included david david evans sutherland computer corp thunder sim es com disclaimer content message way reflects opinions employer , actions encouraged , supported , acknowledged employer
zyeh caspian usc edu \( zhenghao yeh \) subject need polygon splitting algo organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 25 distribution world nntp posting host caspian usc edu keywords polygons , splitting , clipping article wampyr cc uow edu au , g9134255 wampyr cc uow edu au \( coronado emmanuel abad \) writes idea clip one polygon using another polygon \( necessarily rectangular \) window problem finding new vertices resulting first one simply matter extending usual algorithm whereby edges one polygon checked another polygon \? \? \? simpler way \? \? comments welcome noel depends kind polygons convex simple , concave trouble , concave loop \( \) inside big trouble cause , use box test avoid checking edges according experience , simple way go headache stuff deal special cases , example , overlapped lines yeh usc
johnh jhunix hcf jhu edu \( john j \) subject images earth organization homewood academic computing , johns hopkins university , baltimore , md , usa lines 14 nntp posting host jhunix hcf jhu edu article 1993apr20 cs ruu nl clldomps cs ruu nl \( louis van dompselaar \) writes sue newspaper got printing article n't say anything copyrights newspaper almost certainly copyrighted entirety newspapers generally employ legal staffs make sure get permission use copyrighted image text \? john john j johnh jhunix hcf jhu edu short sig , std disclaimer
ab nova cc purdue edu \( allen b \) subject comp graphics programmer organization purdue university lines 26 article names nerdc ufl edu lioness maple circa ufl edu writes however , almost overkill something like would probably make everyone lot happier comp graphics programmer comp graphics hardware comp graphics apps comp graphics misc 's closer , dislike apps software \( vs hardware \) would better would alt graphics \? would programmer \? n't know traffic really heavy enough warrant newsgroup split look busy comp graphics research \( \) 's true lot traffic faqs discussing things would probably better diverted system specific groups , n't know whether split would help hurt cause maybe need comp graphics people ca n't bothered read fine books right , dr rogers \? \) ab
daniel lclark edu \( daniel \) subject stand alone editing suite article lclark 1993apr20 organization lewis clark college , portland lines 63 article shelley u washington edu eylerken stein u washington edu \( ken \) writes need help upgrading animation video editing stand looking different type setups b roll cuts station would like controlled computer \( brand doesnt matter maybe mac , amiga \) low end high end system setups would helpful system use system might use , could mail system requirements , used , hardware software necessary set system need info , mail eylerken u washington edu thanks advance ken eylerken u washington edu lewis clark college recently installed digital film system \( based mac quadra \) non linear , full digital editing 're considering system , pros cons educational environment , system excellent use produce variety educational materials local network programming going viewed macs , image quality important ability directly export video net also use produce promotional video programs use lewis clark community since programs meant commercial broadcast use , image quality critical digital film system , , b roll digitizing system one 5000 jpeg compression card promoted inexpensive online editing system svhs quality supermac , maker card , trying achieve quality level , yet , unable deliver system produces near vhs quality 30 fields per second \( 640x480 \) card repeats every field get 60 fields per second results kind super 8 film look find distracting get past problem , 'll find adobe premier editing software quite enjoyable work produces thousands different effects filters dve transitions color non linear nature , editing fast easy 've ever used \( seen used \) avid system , 'll recognize methodology user interface total system quadra 950 \( ram \) , 1 gig drive , 21 apple mon , panasonic svhs 1960 edit deck , audio gear \( cassette , cd , eq , mixer , etc \) , composite monitor , digital film card set back 20 , 000 video cowboys girls , system output quality satisfy clients even though perform effects imagine , amiga based line based system look better use macs amigas video work best ! dan media services lewis clark college portland
jk87377 lehtori cc tut fi \( kouhia juhana \) subject xv problems organization tampere university technology lines 113 distribution world nntp posting host cc tut fi please , note newsgroups recent discussion xv 's problems held newsgroup text users xv might find interesting added text collection article , read , even articles ago hope author xv corrects problems best , fine program xv worth improving \( also minor ideas 24bit xv , e mail \) mine understandable juhana kouhia clip deleted note saves 8bit rasterized images means saved jpegs like jpeg gif jpeg quality also , 's three kind 8bit quantizers final image quality depends situation read jpeg faq ago imho , design error confusing errors programs 's two errors xv allows saving 8bit rasterized image jpeg even original 24bit saving 8bit rasterized image instead original 24bit special case xv allows saving 8bit rasterized image made main case image best available saving image file quantizers viewing purposes \( special cases saving image , \) clip clip deleted limit xv , limit design error design error 8bit quantized rasterized images stored jpegs jpeg designed matter fact , i'm sure xv designed 24bit displays known bad error program program 8bit images time , 24bit image formats included program whole design changed support 24bit images done program violate jpeg design \( 24bit image format \) program human interface errors drop saving images jpegs 24bit format without clearly saying special case expected normal use deleted clip new items follows clip seen xv image sometimes poorly option default option reason surely used \( surprise \) used ppmquant remember , tested quantizers test found \( default \) best , comes djpeg , , xv \( default \) order test ppmquant poorly actually gave image bad artifacts n't know ppmquant improved , expect , use xv 's option good idea suggest author xv changes one used i'm sure rle people gives permission \( another could one used imagemagick tested , say nothing \) clip clip minor bugs human interface key cursor clicks goes buffer often happens make click errors press keyboard cursor wrong place annoying waited image come five minutes gone away immediately buffer cleaned image complete also , good idea wait seconds activating keyboard mouse xv image completed often happens image pops screen quickly , i'm writing something editor key go xv image gone something weird color editor , turn color meter release , xv updates images impossible change rgb values first get updated image annoying wait image updated setting ready yet suggest adding button update exchanges done clip
andreasa dhhalden \( andreas arff \) subject newsgroup split lines 40 nntp posting host organization ostfold college article 1quvdoinn3e7 srvr1 engin umich edu tdawson engin umich edu \( chris herringshaw \) writes tdawson engin umich edu \( chris herringshaw \) subject newsgroup split date 19 apr 1993 19 43 52 gmt concerning proposed newsgroup split , personally favor learn awful lot aspects graphics reading group , code hardware algorithms think making 5 different groups wate , result posts week per group kind like convenience one big forum discussing aspects graphics anyone else feel way \? curious daemon n't , hand n't support idea one newsgroup every aspect graphics programming proposed brian , reply original posting would suggest looser structure like comp graphics programmer , comp graphics hw sw reason making groups possible reason say n't , get postings every day takes much time browse postings find two three i'm interested understand agree say want aspects graphics one meeting agree extension see news forum exchange ideas , help others helped think difficult achive many different things one meeting good evening netters \) arff also religous confessor , mystery higher values , 's birth mankind last builds upon often disregarded seldom hear beeing prized , seldom hear seeing man sees per , fist \( free translation swedish \) andreas arff andreasa dhhalden
jbrandt neosoft com \( j brandt \) subject beta testers wanted graphics libraries organization neosoft communications services \( 713 \) 684 5900 keywords xeg beta x graphics lines 48 visual inc \( formerly precision visuals \) process securing sites beta testing x exponent graphics 1 0 c exponent graphics 2 0 \( x exponent graphics c exponent graphics products \) beta period april 26 june 18 platform hp9000 700 running os 8 07 ansi c 8 71 compiler media sent 4mm dat cartridge tape key facts two products x exponent graphics 1 0 key facts 1 complete collection high level 2d 3d application plot types available large collection x resources 2 widget osf motif developers 3 built interactive gui plot customization 4 easily implemented callbacks customized application feedback 5 xeg 1 0 , built xt toolkit provides user widget library conforms expected syntax standards x programmers 6 xeg also sold bundle visual edge 's uim x product enable user use gui builder create graphical layout application c exponent graphics 2 0 key facts 1 written c c application programmers developers library 100 written c , programming interface conforms c standards , taking advantage fo desirable features c 2 build gui interactive plot customization mouse interaction , user complete interactive graph output control 200 graphics attributes plot customization 3 large collection high level application functions two call graph creation wide variety 2d 3d plot types available minimal programming effort 4 user ability interrupt control x event controlling x event loop , user use mouse manipulate plot user allow control event loop user control event loop anyone interested beta testing either products , please contact wendy hou visual via email hou com call 713 279 1066 brandt jbrandt neosoft com
danny danny canrem com subject radiosity reply danny danny canrem com organization canada remote systems distribution comp lines 9 looking source code radiosity method n't know kind machine want , program radiance comes 'c' source code n't ftp access could n't tell get via way canada remote systems toronto , ontario 416 629 7000 629 7044
andreasa dhhalden \( andreas arff \) subject newsgroup split lines 41 nntp posting host organization ostfold college article nerone sylvester cc utexas edu nerone ccwf cc utexas edu \( michael nerone \) writes nerone ccwf cc utexas edu \( michael nerone \) subject newsgroup split date 20 apr 93 08 59 51 article 1quvdoinn3e7 srvr1 engin umich edu , tdawson engin umich edu \( chris herringshaw \) writes ch concerning proposed newsgroup split , personally ch favor learn awful lot aspects ch graphics reading group , code hardware ch algorithms think making 5 different groups ch wate , result posts week per group ch kind like convenience one big forum ch discussing aspects graphics anyone else feel way \? ch curious must agree number c amiga newsgroups already addition , issues fall cleanly one categories also , readily observable current spectrum amiga groups already plagued mega crossposting thus group split would , likelihood , bring structured environment michael nerone shall customary lack tact internet address since asked , obliged nerone ccwf cc utexas edu pardon , fictional char galileo maybe point talking c amiga comp graphics arff also religous confessor , mystery higher values , 's birth mankind last builds upon often disregarded seldom hear beeing prized , seldom hear seeing man sees per , fist \( free translation swedish \) andreas arff andreasa dhhalden
srlnjal grace cri nz subject coreldraw bitmap scodal organization industrial research ltd , new zealand lines 10 nntp posting host grv grace cri nz anyone know software allow convert coreldraw \( cdr \) files containing bitmaps scodal , format bureau 's jeff lyall inst geo sci ltd lower new zealand
idr rigel cs pdx edu \( ian romanick \) subject fast polygon routine needed keywords polygon , needed article pdxgate organization portland state university , computer science dept lines 23 article news cso uiuc edu osprey ux4 cso uiuc edu \( lucas adamski \) writes article 1993apr17 sophia smith edu orourke sophia smith edu \( joseph o'rourke \) writes fast polygon routine \? draw polygons course vga mode 13h \( 320x200 \) game , done c asm need faster way draw concave polygons method right , slow kind polygons \? shaded \? \? hm \? comes play fast routines polygons would nice know exaclty system \( vga start , processor \? \) specifics implementation need give info want get answers ! p ian romanick dancing fool epsilon contained thoughts , ntsc quality best psu would probably agree look , n't know anything , know anti freeze see ! dead
longs lance colostate edu \( xia zhao \) subject radiosity nntp posting host lance colostate edu organization colorado state u engineering college keywords radiosity lines 45 article 1993apr19 aragorn unibe ch , write let 's serious i'm working radiosity package , written c would like make public domain 'll announce c g minute finished good news bad news 'll take another 2 months \( least \) finish using traditional radiosity method , progressive refinement , something else package \? need project patches cube surfaces , technique using \? hardware facilitate projection \? meantime may look file radiosity code tar z located compute1 cc ncsu edu guest username password ftp site \? \( locations look archie get nearest \) hope 'll help stephan thanks , stephan
kaufman xenon stanford edu \( marc kaufman \) subject tiff philosophical significance 42 reply kaufman cs stanford edu organization cs department , stanford university , california , usa lines 33 joachim kih \( joachim lous \) writes ulrich galki toppoint de wrote according tiff 5 0 specification , tiff version number \( bytes 2 3 \) 42 chosen deep philosophical significance last week , read hitchhikers guide galaxy , second time \( millions years calculation , second best computer time reveals 42 answer question life , universe everything \) actually picked number 42 \? yes anyone suggestions 42 came \? moment king , time writing note book , called silence ! read book rule forty two persons mile high leave court everybody looked alice i'm mile high , said alice , said king nearly two miles high , added queen well , n't go , rate , said alice besides , 's regular rule invented 's oldest rule book , said king ought number one , said alice marc kaufman \( kaufman cs stanford edu \)
cix compulink co uk \( david \) subject another cview question \( wa reply cix compulink co uk lines 5 reply rigel tamu edu rigel tamu edu \( preston , lisa \) trident card fullview works real gif jpg try dave
seth acpub duke edu \( seth wandersman \) subject univesa driver reply seth acpub duke edu \( seth wandersman \) lines 7 nntp posting host acpub duke edu got univesa driver available net thought finally 1 meg oak board would able show 256 colors unfortunately program still says ca n't fault program \( fractint \) something wrong card univesa free driver available net makes many boards vesa compatible
ednobles sacam oren ortn edu \( edward nobles \) subject windows imagine \? \? ! ! organization oak ridge national laboratory x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 10 sent copy today snail mail hope get back ten days \( impulse said week \) hope 's good claim jim nobles \( hope takes use \)
osprey ux4 cso uiuc edu \( lucas adamski \) subject fast polygon routine needed keywords polygon , needed organization university illinois urbana champaign lines 19 article pdxgate uucp idr rigel cs pdx edu \( ian romanick \) writes kind polygons \? shaded \? \? hm \? comes play fast routines polygons would nice know exaclty system \( vga start , processor \? \) specifics implementation need give info want get answers ! p n't want texture mapped , cause 'd asked \) simple fast routine filled polygons processor , 'd minimum 286 maybe 386 ca n't find good one 286s ideally , want polyn function clip user defined viewport , write arbitrary location memory course chances finding something like pretty remote , guess 'd need source oh , guess would need asm otherwise 'd slow 've seen polygon routines c , 've slow 3d vector graphics program 've hunting high low polyn function asm , ca n't find one anywhere use 've found one two polyn functions , asm pretty bad , wo n't even try rewrite \) lucas
yoo engr ucf edu \( yoo \) subject ribbon information \? organization engineering , university central florida , orlando distribution usa lines 20 anyone know , kind utility program ribbons \? ribbons popular representation 2d shape trying find symmetry axis given 2d shape using ribbons suggestions greatly appreciated start program thanks much advance , yoo engr ucf edu
subject need rgb data saved images psuvm psu edu organization penn state university lines 4 could someone please help find program figure extract li st r g b values pixel image convert tga popular formats need r g b values use program writing thanks help
quan sol utas edu au \( stephen quan \) subject fast polygon routine needed keywords polygon , needed organization university tasmania , australia lines 22 osprey ux4 cso uiuc edu \( lucas adamski \) writes article 1993apr17 sophia smith edu orourke sophia smith edu \( joseph o'rourke \) writes article news cso uiuc edu osprey ux4 cso uiuc edu \( lucas adamski \) writes , i'm looking fast polygon routine used 3d game fast polygon routine \? draw polygons course vga mode 13h \( 320x200 \) game , hi , 've come across fast triangle fill draw routine mode 13h calling routine enough times , fast polygon drawing routine think ftp'ed wuarchive wustl edu pub msdos uploads programming copy triangle txt file say c inline assembly source vga mode 13h triangle drawer stephen quan \( quan sol utas edu au \) tel 002 \( local \) research fellow , computer scientist , fax 002 \( local \) centre spatial information systems , tel 61 02 university tasmania , australia fax 61 02
cs columbia edu \( yong su kim \) subject fast wireframe graphics distribution usa organization columbia university department computer science lines 29 working program display 3d wireframe models user able arbitrarily change viewing parameters also , wireframe objects also going dynamic attributes move around user exploring wireframe world , thinking using srgp package described van dam , foley feiner book , wondering another pd graphics package faster would like make program fast possible provides satisfactory real time performance sun ipx ideally , i'm looking pd graphics package allow open new window x , allow draw lines within window also , would also need sort event driven interaction handling since user going move around wireframe models using keyboard know wrote package , would grateful could direct ftp site contains package thank yong su kim , class 1993 internet cunixb cc columbia edu columbia college , columbia university cs columbia edu
olson anchor esd sgi com \( dave olson \) subject sgi sales practices \( crimson \( kubota announcement \? \) \) organization silicon graphics , inc mountain view , ca lines 90 network ucsd edu spl ivem ucsd edu \( steve lamont \) writes annoyed fact led believe would able upgrade multiprocessor version crimson without assistance fork lift truck made fairly clear crimson would ever get 150 \( 75 old style \) mhz cpu upgrade certainly mentioned comp sys sgi one occasion likely sales folks saying otherwise , either confused , less honest ethical , somebody chain inside sgi misleading i'm also annoyed sold several personal irises previous site understanding architecture would around , rather flushed 4 versions \( 20 , 25 , 30 , 35 \) , although admittedly 30 came time 35 , period 2 1 2 years chassis simply could n't pushed 'd say 4 years pretty good lifespan , , system design day age getting 35 work caused lot gray hairs hardware product design groups would minds push , know made clear , almost day 35 started shipping one last kicker form elan graphics , made 3 graphics versions lifespan , also think pretty good understand sgi responsible investors keep showing positive quarterly bottom line \( odd found pressured least two occasions get business books end quarter \) , i'm little tired getting process please , means send complaint letter sgi support sales concerns reason sales folks misrepresent future upgrades customers \( sure , sometimes confusion , whether upgrade available , n't last long , n't seem referring \) yes , sales folks get bonus 's end \( \? \) quarters , pretty common industry wide , sometimes result good deals customers \( sometimes probably pushes folks systems n't need , i'm sure , nobody forcing buy end quarter , \) maybe 's lab buys , n't entitled peek covers big kids \( nasa , instance \) lab , suspect lot labs n't get long lead time either although certainly get presentations possible new products , opinions may well influence end product , also life industry ca n't design systems meet needs , wo n't sell many systems , \( say n't niche products , like reality engine \) organizations , n't load money spend computers every year , ca n't buying new systems regular basis boxes buy last us pretty much entire grant period five years , case , beyond means need buy best piece equipment money , product built , paraphrase one previous poster 's words , 'to fill compete vendor i'm going looking box next five years every time look , i'm going think sgi could better spent money \( actually money , since 're supported almost entirely federal tax dollars \) surely n't expect system buy five year period constantly upgradable entire five year period \? 's rather unreasonable expectation , experience \( workstations \) supported , parts available , yes , certainly upgradable latest greatest ! 'll pardon go hiss corner somewhere think dark , libelous thoughts missed first posting , say , means share somebody level inside sgi might effect \( immediate , i'm sure , complaints n't going ignored , may affect future plans , hear similar things one person site \) , usual , personal opinion , sgi 's let one tell silence gives consent , dave olson whoever silent silicon graphics , inc maria olson sgi com ps start 29 may , ask questions \)
jr0930 eve albany edu \( regan james p \) subject pascal fractals organization state university new york albany thanks advance lines 5 jr0930 eve albany edu jr0930 albnyvms bitnet go heavy go home
cs hut fi \( pekka \) subject detecting double points bezier curves nntp posting host cs hut fi organization helsinki university technology , finland lines 26 article 1993apr19 kpc com jbulf balsa berkeley edu \( jeff bulf \) writes article ia522b1w165w oeinck waterland wlink nl , ferdinan oeinck waterland wlink nl \( ferdinand oeinck \) writes i'm looking information detecting calculating double point cusp bezier curve algorithm , literature reference mail appreciated , useful article one 1989 issues transactions graphics believe maureen stone one authors sorry specific n't reference stone , derose geometric characterization parametric cubic curves acm trans graphics 8 \( 3 \) \( 1989 \) 147 163 , detecting inflection points curves computer aided geometric design 9 \( 1992 \) 1 24 pekka
ricky watson ibm com \( rick turner \) subject coreldraw bitmap scodal disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host ibm com organization ibm j watson research lines 4 coreldraw 3 0 whatever write files directly look file export main menu rick
joachim kih \( joachim lous \) subject tiff philosophical significance 42 organization kongsberg lines 28 nntp posting host samson kih x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 marc kaufman \( kaufman xenon stanford edu \) wrote anyone suggestions 42 came \? moment king , time writing note book , called silence ! read book rule forty two persons mile high leave court everybody looked alice i'm mile high , said alice , said king nearly two miles high , added queen well , n't go , rate , said alice besides , 's regular rule invented 's oldest rule book , said king ought number one , said alice anybody collection occurances 42 \? \( guide \) , would like receive odd bits might know postings alt fan douglas adams l one thing sure sheep \) \( \) \( \( \) \) \) \( \) \( \) creature earth \) \( joachim kih back masking ii' robert fripp
se92psh brunel ac uk \( peter hauke \) subject tiff philosophical significance 42 organization brunel university , uxbridge , uk x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 20 joachim lous \( joachim kih \) wrote ulrich galki toppoint de wrote anyone suggestions 42 came \? yep , 's theory heard bandied around rather thinking number think sound tea two sort anagram tea two , two tea , tea two \) peter peter hauke brunel university se92psh brunel ac uk
jr0930 eve albany edu \( regan james p \) subject pascal fractals organization state university new york albany lines 10 apparently , editor n't wanted , 'll try i'm looking programs code simple animation drawing using fractals ibm thanks advance jr0930 eve albany edu jr0930 albnyvms bitnet go heavy go home
schmidt prakinf th ilmenau de \( schmidt \) subject irit pov \? keywords raytracer , format conversion reply schmidt prakinf th ilmenau de \( schmidt \) organization technische ilmenau lines 8 nntp posting host merkur prakinf tu ilmenau de anybody made converter irit 's dat format pov format \? thanks ! sebastian schmidt tu ilmenau institut f informatik
brunel ac uk \( sunil gupta \) subject rtrace 8 2 0 organization brunel university , uxbridge , uk lines 12 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 comp graphics cad \( cgcad bart inescn pt \) wrote new version rtrace ray tracing package \( 8 2 0 \) asterix inescn pt 192 35 246 17 directory pub rtrace check readme file cant seem reach site ping 192 35 246 17 net gateway fix pe sura net \( 192 80 214 253 \) 24 brunel ac uk \( 134 83 176 30 \) 192 35 246 17 possible upload mainstream ftp place \?
actrix gen nz \( john \) subject help ! ! ! grasp organization tap lines 19 quoted 1993apr20 genes icgeb trieste oberto genes icgeb trieste \( jacques oberto \) file , check directories grasp problem clp files generate cannot decoded many pd format converters used hint welcome ! stuff gfx show aminet sites includes utility called , filter handle commonly used kinds pic clp files biggest problem clp files n't usually contain palette , need convert pic right palette first \( creates ram file \) , convert clp files jacques oberto oberto genes icgeb trieste john , tap actrix gen nz radioactivity 's air ,
cs utwente nl \( pim \) subject pbm plus sources , \? nntp posting host cs utwente nl organization university twente , dept computer science lines 7 hi everybody , anyone name anonymous ftp site find sources pbm plus package \( portable bit gray pixel map \) would like compile run sun sparcstation thanks !
ab nova cc purdue edu \( allen b \) subject fractals \? good \? organization purdue university lines 16 article 2 mcc ac uk mcc ac uk \( sue cunningham \) writes using iterated systems compression board compress pathology images getting ratios 40 1 70 1 without much loss quality taking 4 mins per image compress , 25mhz 486 decompression almost real time 386 software alone compare jpeg images hardware far size , speed , image quality concerned \? despite skeptical sometimes nearly rabid postings criticizing company , interested technique n't probably would n't critical \) ab
subject univesa driver ualr edu organization university arkansas little rock nntp posting host athena ualr edu lines 13 article news duke edu , seth acpub duke edu \( seth wandersman \) writes got univesa driver available net thought finally 1 meg oak board would able show 256 colors unfortunately program still says ca n't fault program \( fractint \) something wrong card univesa free driver available net makes many boards vesa compatible whats 256 color mode \? asking lot hardware \? lewis ualr edu
amann iam unibe ch \( stephan amann \) subject radiosity reply amann iam unibe ch organization university berne , institute computer science applied mathematics , special interest group computer graphics lines 80 article yuma acns colostate edu , longs lance colostate edu \( xia zhao \) writes article 1993apr19 aragorn unibe ch , write let 's serious i'm working radiosity package , written c would like make public domain 'll announce c g minute finished good news bad news 'll take another 2 months \( least \) finish using traditional radiosity method , progressive refinement , something else package \? package based several articles non standard radiosity unpublished methods main articles cohen , chen , wallace , greenberg progressive refinement approach fast radiosity image generation computer graphics \( siggraph \) , v 22 \( 4 \) , pp 75 84 , august 1988 , general two pass method integrating diffuse reflection computer graphics \( siggraph \) , \( 3 \) , 344 , july 1989 need project patches cube surfaces , technique using \? hardware facilitate projection \? use cubes special hardware \( sun sparcstation \) meantime may look file radiosity code tar z located compute1 cc ncsu edu guest username password ftp site \? use anonymous username e mail address password \( locations look archie get nearest \) hope 'll help stephan thanks , stephan stephan stephan amann sig computer graphics , university berne , switzerland amann iam unibe ch tel 41 31 65 46 79 fax 41 31 65 39 65 projects radiosity , raytracing , computer graphics
subject xv ms dos ! ! ! e mail address eicn etna ch organization eicn , switzerland lines 42 hi ! ! ! response wayne michael certainly one \) i'm sorry 1 \) late answer could n't find xv221 msdos 'cause forgot address 've retrieve 2 \) posting answer comp graphics 'cause ca n't use e mail , yet 2 \) bad english 'cause i'm swiss language french long time retrieve address find xv dos site clarkson edu aliases grape ecs clarkson edu number 128 153 4 2 pub msdos djgpp pub 's xv221 zip \( \? \) think certainly read answer kevin martin write dv x \( \? \) \? \? \? \? \? \? could someone answer \? \? \? \? thanx advance pascal perret perret eicn etna ch ecole ets \( available time \) 2400 le ! ! ! ! enjoy computer ! ! ! !
fombaron ufrima imag fr \( fombaron marc \) subject 3d studio v2 01 differences previous version keywords 3d studio 2 01 nntp posting host boole imag organization university grenoble \( france \) lines 9 significant differences v2 01 v2 00 \? thank helping marc e mail marc fombaron ufrima imag fr marc fombaron grenoble
freemant dcs glasgow ac uk \( toby freeman , , , , , \) subject coreldraw bitmap scodal nntp posting host reply freemant dcs glasgow ac uk organization dept computing science , glasgow university , glasgow lines 38 anyone know software allow convert coreldraw \( cdr \) files containing bitmaps scodal , format bureau 's jeff lyall used combination qcr z recorder , think far remember corel export scodal \( scd \) format select main file menu may implemented earlier versions , course , case 're ! ! ! also , seem think w qcr z \( time \) strange \( undesirable \) things part pic outside screen area corel spent afternoon painfully discovering one pixel somehow strayed screen , causing whole slide blank ! ! ! qcr z also could n't handle grad fill grad fill use graduated colour background , grad fill object top , fill appears final slide circle \( think \) totally ignores shape object filled ! ! ! course , recorder n't qcr , ignore feel suitably \) cheers , toby ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! toby freeman ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! glasgow university ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! freemant uk ac glasgow dcs ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
cec uchile cl \( \) subject oak vga 1mb please , vesa tsr ! ! ! 8 \) originator nntp posting host cec uchile cl organization centro de \( cec \) , universidad de chile lines 15 hi ! well , 386 40 svga 1mb \( oak chip 077 \) n't vesa tsr program card need please anybody help , mail cec uchile cl thanks 'o o' \( \) u ack !
luis nobrega filebank cts com \( luis nobrega \) subject pc paintbrush iv distribution world organization file bank bbs , ca 619 728 reply luis nobrega filebank cts com \( luis nobrega \) lines 11 trying configure 's pc paintbrush iv use logitech scanman 32 \( hand scanner \) , ca n't get paintbrush acknowledge scanner anybody using paintbrush scanner , , help \? thanks luis nobrega file bank bbs 619 728 pcboard v 14 5a usr hst ds 8 nodes rime internet largest clipper file collection world
joachim kih \( joachim lous \) subject xv ms dos ! ! ! organization kongsberg lines 20 nntp posting host samson kih x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 eicn etna ch wrote i'm sorry 1 \) late answer could n't find xv221 msdos 'cause forgot address 've retrieve 2 \) posting answer comp graphics 'cause ca n't use e mail , yet 2 \) bad english 'cause i'm swiss language french french language , try counting french , maybe work better \) l one thing sure sheep \) \( \) \( \( \) \) \) \( \) \( \) creature earth \) \( joachim kih back masking ii' robert fripp
mz moscom com \( matthew zenkar \) subject cview answers organization moscom corp , e rochester , ny lines 15 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 cyberspace buddha \( cb wixer bga com \) wrote renew blade stack urc tue nl \( rene walter \) writes places temp files places current directory beg differ point , batch file use launch cview cd 's dir cview resides invokes every time crash cview , 0 byte temp file found root dir drive cview posted well cview expert apparently , thought knew better matthew zenkar mz moscom com
email bony com subject image pictures lines 8 organization hi , looking advice software hardware package making , storing processing pictures ideal software would allow size picture , edit \( means add text , \) important would dos command interface thank advance bank new york
raynor cs scarolina edu \( harold brian raynor \) subject help needed hidden line removal summary need help roberts algorithm hidden line removal keywords hidden line graphics 3d organization usc department computer science distribution comp lines 20 looking information hidden line removal using roberts algorithm something code , pseudo code would especially helpful required class , due monday \( little time implement changes , fast paced class \) notes given class leave lot desired , would vastly appreciate help actually algorithm would nice \( roberts \) main problem two objects intersecting x dimensions , need know lines clip one object appear front another give ftp address filename , even name good book , 'd really appreciate thanks , brian raynor
ed cwis unomaha edu \( ed stastny \) subject otis project \( ftp sites original art images \) keywords mr owl , many organization university nebraska omaha lines 227 otis project '93 operative term stimulate file last updated 4 21 93 otis \? otis purpose distributing original artwork photographs network public perusal , scrutiny , distribution digital immortality basic idea behind digital immortality computer networks stay anything interesting deposit around near forever gifs today artifacts digital future perhaps 'll put different formats , perhaps surviving backup tapes 'll someone dig n't interest otis also offers forum critique exhibition works virtual art gallery never closes exists information dimension submissions hang wallpaper thousands glowing monitors suddenly , life breathed work merit 's stimulus , travel globe pulses light electrons spectators welcome also , feel free browse gallery let artists know think efforts keep copies images look 've got 's 're \? otis currently \( 4 21 93 \) two ftp sites 141 214 4 135 \( projects otis \) , site sunsite unc edu \( pub multimedia pictures otis \) , sunsite \( also gopher site otis well \) merely anonymous ftp either site internet change appropriate directory n't forget get busy use bin command make sure 're binary otis also spreading dial bbs systems around north america following systems supply underground cafe \( omaha \) \( 402 339 \) 2 lines cyberden \( \? \) \( 415 472 \) usenet waffle iron contribute \? happens draw pretty picture take lovely photo , get scanned image file , either ftp put contrib incoming directory use uuencode send \( email addresses eof \) email image received , put correct directory computer originated works also welcome directories house two types image files , gif jpg gif jpg files require , oddly enough , gif jpg viewer see viewers available types computers large ftp sites around internet jpg viewers bit tougher find ca n't find one , gif viewer , obtain jpg gif conversion program change jpg files standard gif format otis also accepts animation files submit image files , please send email time stating information uploaded whether used \( publications projects \) merely people view also , include biographical information , 'll info files contributing artist works also upload text file info \( instead emailing \) pictures , scanner , hope merely send copies otis project c ed stastny po bx 241113 omaha , ne 68124 1113 either scan get someone scan include ample sase want stuff back also include information image , preferably 1 3 line description image include directory 's finally put preferences images named , include well conversely , scanner would like help , please contact 'll arrange things want submit works disk , merely send 3 5 disk address \( omaha \) sase want disk back good people n't direct access encoders ftp , access scanner accept disks either mac ibm compatible format possible , please submit image files gif jpg ca n't convert formats 'd rather senders request , also fill disks much otis stand even n't stuff contribute , send blank disk sase \( 2 50 disk , postage packing \) get slab otis 04 21 93 , 're 18 megabytes files , growing email current archive size directory distribution \? images distributed otis project may distributed freely condition original filename kept altered way \( save convert one image format another \) fact , encourage files distributed local bulletin boards could , please transport appropriate text files along images would also nice 'd send note post images otis local bbs want keep track participants idea widespread stuff 's purpose otis get images spread much possible time , please upload favorite bbs system even post info file would keen use \? want use works find otis directory , 'll check see permission granted permission \( free copy publication , full address credit \) either find rm file image series images artists directory artists name permission n't explicitly given , 'll contact artist ask info available , email \( ed cwis unomaha edu \) , 'll get contact artist , give contact information use permitted work , 's always courteous let artist know , perhaps even send free copy compensation files naming images \? please keep names files dos format means , keep filename \( jpg gif \) eight characters less way usually use initials artist , plus three four digit code series images , plus series number thus , leonardo 's fifth mechanical drawing would something like gif jpg gif etc keeping names 8 characters assures filename remain intact systems creating image files \? creating image files , sure least include name somewhere picture gives people reference case 'd like contact may also want include title , address information 'd like people know hmmm \? ! 's guidelines added needed input expected disclaimer otis project connection church otis \( deity \) 's followers , pope , priest , administrator take sacrifices donations however disclaimer otis project distribution original image files files go public large 's possible , form mass media , someone could use images financial gain unless 've given permission , 's illegal otis takes responsibility simple terms , rights revert author artist leave image otis give permission viewed , copied distributed electronically n't want images distributed , n't upload leave image otis giving permission used publication broadcast profit \( includes , limited , magazines , newsletters , clip art software , screen printed clothing , etc \) must give specific permission sort usage remember , operative term stimulate know people 'd interested sort thing get involved offer free food whatever e \( ed cwis unomaha edu \) \( ed sunsite unc edu \) ed stastny otis project , end process , sound news arts po bx 241113 ftp sunsite unc edu \( pub multimedia pictures otis \) omaha , ne 68124 1113 141 214 4 135 \( projects otis \) email ed cwis unomaha edu , ed sunsite unc edu
kinder nerdc ufl edu \( jim cobb \) subject et 4000 w32 vl bus cards organization university florida , nerdc lines 3 nntp posting host nerdc ufl edu x newsreader nnr vm 1 3 2 anyone know vl bus video card based et4000 w32 card \? much cost , get one , come 1mb ram , windows performance like \?
mach1 wlu ca \( phil martin u \) subject newsgroup split x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 organization wilfrid laurier university lines 17 chris herringshaw \( tdawson engin umich edu \) wrote concerning proposed newsgroup split , personally favor learn awful lot aspects graphics reading group , code hardware algorithms think making 5 different groups wate , result posts week per group kind like convenience one big forum discussing aspects graphics anyone else feel way \? curious daemon yes also like knowing go ask question without getting hell putting wrong newsgroup phil martin
braun ira uka de \( thomas braun \) subject sources shading wanted organization university karlsruhe , frg lines 22 distribution world nntp posting host ira uka de x news reader vms news 1 25 i'm looking shading methods algorithms please let know know get source codes thanks lot ! thomas thomas braun , universitaet karlsruhe e mail braun ira uka de thomas braun university karlsruhe , germany email braun ira uka de bitnet
psych toronto edu \( dave \) subject fast polygon routine needed keywords polygon , needed organization department psychology , university toronto lines 27 sol utas edu au \( stephen quan \) writes , i'm looking fast polygon routine used 3d game fast polygon routine \? draw polygons course vga mode 13h \( 320x200 \) game , hi , 've come across fast triangle fill draw routine mode 13h calling routine enough times , fast polygon drawing routine think ftp'ed wuarchive wustl edu pub msdos uploads programming copy triangle txt file say c inline assembly source vga mode 13h triangle drawer another source 's poly mode \( mode x 320x200 \) sunee uwaterloo ca also rend386 , even faster 3d renderer vr extensions life hardware , dave destiny software , psych toronto edu cpu wetware sunee uwaterloo ca techno psychologist , psycho engineer \? \?
chris sarah lerc nasa gov \( chris johnston \) subject one day graphics composites seminar organization nasa lewis research center , cleveland , oh lines 47 distribution world reply chris sarah lerc nasa gov \( chris johnston \) nntp posting host looney lerc nasa gov , ncga , university akron , nasa lewis research center sponsoring computers composites one day seminar devoted practical applications computer workstations efficient processing , design , manufacture composites may 18 , 1993 university akron akron , ohio speakers advancement graphics visualization dr jay horowitz , nasa integrated product development mr michael r cowen network workstations aircraft structural analysis mr brian , nasa mr jason williams , penn state erie molecular physical modeling dr , curing university akron process modeling matrix composites dr ram , ge corporate r registration fees 75 00 advance , 100 00 site \( includes box lunch \) contact gary roberts , nasa lewis research center \( 216 \) 433 344 write regional seminar c gary roberts nasa lewis research center 21000 brookpark rd ms 49 1 cleveland , ohio 44135 email , 'll get gary chris johnston \( 216 \) 433 materials engineer \( 216 \) 433 nasa lewis research center internet chris sarah lerc nasa gov 21000 brookpark rd ms 105 1 cleveland , oh usa resistance futile !
informatik tu muenchen de \( haber joerg \) subject ray tracing spline surfaces keywords ray tracing , splines originator mathematik tu muenchen de organization technische universitaet muenchen , germany lines 17 hi net ! due investigation would like study following article peterson , ray tracing general b splines , proc acm mountain regional conference , april 1986 unfortunately n't find library 's register anyone access paper knowing library containing proceedings \( germany \) , please let know ! help would appreciated ! thanks lot , joerg haber joerg haber mathematik tu muenchen de institut tu muenchen
mir gatech edu \( nicholas hess \) subject hitatchi raster format \( \) \? organization usgs center spatial analysis technologies lines 19 nntp posting host mir gatech edu keywords shop uses package called good scan subsequently original maps digital maps problem raster file loaded package , header added file makes unreadable supplied converter would like able ship already altered raster images use workstations , questions \( 1 \) hitachi format \? need format recognize precisely strip strongly suspect 's compressed format , might possible strip offending header \( 2 \) unix packages read recognize \? would really nice find sort converter \) 've already searched well known ftp sites contain graphics formats documentation , luck , know , someone knows please email ! thanks
burn ee washington edu \( ed chen \) subject windows bmp sun raster others \? article shelley distribution world organization university washington lines 11 nntp posting host burn ee washington edu hi , anyone converter bmp format xview xv handle \? converter must run unix looked faq downloaded several packages luck thanks advance ed burn ee washington edu
nyx cs du edu \( uncle fester \) subject cview answers x disclaimer nyx public access unix system run university denver denver community university neither control responsibility opinions users organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept lines 36 article moscom com mz moscom com \( matthew zenkar \) writes cyberspace buddha \( cb wixer bga com \) wrote renew blade stack urc tue nl \( rene walter \) writes places temp files places current directory beg differ point , batch file use launch cview cd 's dir cview resides invokes every time crash cview , 0 byte temp file found root dir drive cview posted well cview expert apparently , thought knew better matthew zenkar mz moscom com talking colorview dos \? version 2 0 writes temp files current directory later versions , admit n't know assuming expert referenced talking version , 'd say correct colorview unix discussed \? mixed , confused , , genuinely entirely curious uncle fester god wants god wants god gets god wants god help us god wants politics nyx cs du edu god wants good laugh
beaver rot qc ca \( andre boivert \) subject photoshop windows organization groupe de recherche en \( rot \) inc x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 13 looking comments people used heard photoshop windows good \? compare mac version \? lot bugs \( heard windows version needs fine tuning \) \? comments would greatly appreciated thank andre boisvert beaver rot qc ca
prism gatech edu \( hart \) subject graphics libraries keywords graphics , libraries organization georgia institute technology lines 16 interested 2d 3d graphics library allow design team write graphics software unix workstations portable possible eventually software moved microsoft windows opinion good api hooks pex underneath would prove portable anyone experience figaro form hoops ithaca software \? would appreciate comments hart k hart 404 894 georgia institute technology , atlanta georgia , 30332 uucp ! decvax , hplabs , ncar , purdue , rutgers ! gatech ! prism ! internet hart gtri gatech edu
tlc cx5 com subject scf files , help needed reply tlc cx5 com organization cx5 \( san francisco \) lines 24 've got old demo disk need view made using rix files two diskette set end scf demo vga resolution \( 256 colors \) , n't know spatial resolution first problem try run demo , screen two black bars cut across \( horizontally \) screen , top third bottom third screen bars 1 inch wide , demo \( animation part \) seems running fine second problem ca n't find graphics program open display files couple image conversion programs , none mention scf files system using , diamond speedstar 24 , sony monitor suggestions \? thank , castro tlc cx5 com
ncu edu tw subject question video projector organization computer center , ncu , taiwan , r c lines 15 setting video aid computer room teacher share display class seen people using video projector , tv sets large monitor presentations told three ways connect video projector composite , c rgb anyone explain difference likely costs \? please reply e mail account well posting bulletin edu tw also like know telnet kermit windows tim chen
mark cartwright markc emx utexas edu subject tiff philosophical significance 42 \( silly \) organization university texas austin , comp center lines 21 distribution world nntp posting host cc utexas edu x useragent nuntius v1 1 well , 42 binary , would forget answer question life , universe , everything else quote douglas adams round way course question yet discovered mark cartwright , university texas austin computation center , graphics facility markc emx utexas edu markc sirius cc utexas edu markc hermes chpc utexas edu \( 512 \) 471 x 362 pp asel 9 92 \) often error , never doubt b \) situation gravity , would like refund please
buck hq ileaf com \( david \) subject looking wmf converter keywords wmf , nntp posting host reply buck hq ileaf com \( david \) organization interleaf , inc lines 13 i'm looking leads source good windows meta file converter interpreter need use outside windows environment pd sources preferred , requirement please reply address david internet buck ileaf com product manager uucp uunet ! ! buck interleaf , inc voice 617 290 x
kimd ecs rpi edu \( daniel kim \) subject wanted super 8mm projector sounds keywords projector nntp posting host ecs rpi edu lines 9 looking super 8mm projector sounds anybody one sale , send email name brand , condition projector , price sale kimd rpi edu \( must sound capability \) danny kimd rpi edu
srlnjal grace cri nz subject coreldraw bitmap scodal \( 2 \) organization industrial research ltd , new zealand lines 22 nntp posting host grv grace cri nz yes aware coreldraw exports scodal version 2 quite well , apart hassles radial fills version 3 better try export scodal bitmap image included drawing say something like cannot export scodal bitmap least version anyone knows way around ears temporal images make product called converts autocad plots scodal , postscript scodal gif scodal costs 650 wondering anything bitmap scodal part tad cheaper jeff lyall inst geo sci ltd lower new zealand
b11 b11 ingr com \( bill jones \) subject need specs info apple quicktime keywords quicktime organization intergraph corp huntsville , al lines 16 add sciences sdsu edu \( james murray \) writes need get specs , least verbose interpretation specs , quicktime technical articles magazines references books would nice also need specs format usable unix ms dos system ca n't much quicktime stuff ftp apple com present format apple released quicktime volume new inside macintosh series bookstore reasonable technical stock bill jones beowulf b11 ingr com
ac za \( \) subject image analysis pc organization university pretoria lines 18 nntp posting host zeno ac za hi looking image analysis software running dos windows 'd like able analyze tiff similar files generate histograms patterns , etc help would appreciated ! department biochemistry university pretoria ac za
ii uib \( torgeir veimo \) subject sources shading wanted organization institutt informatikk uib norway lines 24 article ira uka de , braun ira uka de \( thomas braun \) writes i'm looking shading methods algorithms please let know know get source codes color computer generated roy hall contains c source several famous illumination models , including , phong , blinn , , hall illumination models want introduction shading might look book edited glassner also , book elements computer rogers good reference source code book available net believe , might check nic funet fi site closer carrying graphics related stuff hope asking torgeir veimo studying university bergen i'm gona wave freak flag high ! \( hendrix \) would okay day ! \( police \)
mz moscom com \( matthew zenkar \) subject cview answers organization moscom corp , e rochester , ny lines 18 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 cyberspace buddha \( cb wixer bga com \) wrote renew blade stack urc tue nl \( rene walter \) writes places temp files places current directory beg differ point , batch file use launch cview cd 's dir cview resides invokes every time crash cview , 0 byte temp file found root dir drive cview posted cview uses root directory drive cview however , since much trouble reading large files floppy , suspect uses root directory drive image files matthew zenkar mz moscom com
kardank ere umontreal ca \( kardan kaveh \) subject newsgroup split organization universite de montreal lines 8 n't following thread , already mentioned , comp graphics 3d kaveh kardan kardank ere umontreal ca
zyeh caspian usc edu \( zhenghao yeh \) subject fast wireframe graphics organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 14 distribution usa nntp posting host caspian usc edu article cs columbia edu , cs columbia edu \( yong su kim \) writes working program display 3d wireframe models user able arbitrarily change viewing parameters also , wireframe objects also going dynamic attributes move around user exploring wireframe world n't consider phigs x pex lib \? yeh usc
renner adobe com \( john renner \) subject detecting double points bezier curves organization adobe systems incorporated , mountain view lines 27 article 915 almaden ibm com capelli vnet ibm com \( ron capelli \) writes ia522b1w165w oeinck waterland wlink nl ferdinand oeinck writes i'm looking information detecting calculating double point cusp bezier curve see maureen stone tony derose , geometric characterization parametric cubic curves , acm tog , vol 8 , 3 , july 1989 , pp 147 163 've used reference , found needed go original tech report maureen stone tony derose , characterizing cubic bezier curves xerox 88 8 , december 1988 report obtained free xerox corporation palo alto research center 3333 coyote hill road palo alto , california 1 415 494 tog paper good , tech report interesting details \) john
prestonm cs man ac uk \( martin preston \) subject tiff philosophical significance 42 lines 18 mentor cc purdue edu ab nova cc purdue edu \( allen b \) writes 've got 6 0 spec \( obviously since quoted last posting \) gripe tiff 's far complicated nearly infinitely easier write read , use pd c library reading writing tiff files \? took good 20 minutes start using app martin martin preston , \( preston manchester ac uk \) computer graphics computer graphics unit , manchester computing centre , university manchester , load balls manchester , u k , m13 9pl phone 275
pitt edu \( william b \) subject diamond stelth 24 good \? organization university pittsburgh lines 4 market 24 bit graphics card pc \( isa bus \) , wondering anyone comments \( good \? bad \? otherwise \? \) regarding diamond stealth 24 \?
subject trying view pov files dane nermal santarosa edu \( dane \) organization santa rosa junior college , santa rosa , ca nntp posting host nermal santarosa edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 15 edward nobles \( ednobles sacam oren ortn edu \) wrote 've trying view tga files created povray diamond speedstar 24 video board \( 24x \) far convert jpeg using cjpeg view cview displays 8 bit color want see darn things real color ati ultra pro card , found easiest way view true color images using windows drivers something like winjpeg anyone non windows solution , 'd love hear ! dane
ux4 cso uiuc edu \( robertson \) subject ati gup graphics win organization university illinois urbana lines 11 ati graph ultra pro vlb w 2 megs , small question graphics workshop windows exit says current driver handle 32768 colors actually color mode driver problem , error , \? using 1 5 \( 59 \) driver win 3 1 correctly states display 16m colors switch , though another question anybody know viewers support card windows viewers \? help would appreciated
dgf1 quads uchicago edu \( david farley \) subject photoshop windows reply dgf1 midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 25 article rot qc ca beaver rot qc ca \( andre boivert \) writes looking comments people used heard photoshop windows good \? compare mac version \? lot bugs \( heard windows version needs fine tuning \) \? comments would greatly appreciated thank andre boisvert beaver rot qc ca review mac windows versions either pc week info world week , said windows version considerably slower mac useful comparison would photostyler photoshop windows david david farley university chicago library 312 702 3426 1100 east 57th street , jrl 210 dgf1 midway uchicago edu chicago , illinois 60637
organization penn state university psuvm psu edu subject targa format text file lines 7 anyone know convert targa similar 24 bit picture list r g b values convert back targa operations p r g b codes ex targa 1 one help could someone explain 24 bit data st targa file also stored 8 bit thanks
lipman oasys dt navy mil \( robert lipman \) subject call presentations navy vr seminar reply lipman oasys dt navy mil \( robert lipman \) organization carderock division , nswc , bethesda , md lines 74 2nd call presentations navy scientific visualization virtual reality seminar tuesday , june 22 , 1993 carderock division , naval surface warfare center \( formerly david taylor research center \) bethesda , maryland sponsor ness \( navy engineering software system \) sponsoring one day navy scientific visualization virtual reality seminar purpose seminar present exchange information navy related scientific visualization virtual reality programs , research , developments , applications presentations presentations solicited aspects navy related scientific visualization virtual reality current work , works progress , proposed work navy organizations considered four types presentations available 1 regular presentation 20 30 minutes length 2 short presentation 10 minutes length 3 video presentation stand alone videotape \( author need attend seminar \) 4 scientific visualization virtual reality demonstration \( \) accepted presentations published proceedings , however , materials reproduced seminar attendees abstracts authors submit one page abstract videotape robert lipman naval surface warfare center , carderock division code 2042 bethesda , maryland 20084 5000 voice \( 301 \) 227 3618 fax \( 301 \) 227 5753 e mail lipman oasys dt navy mil authors include type presentation , affiliations , addresses , telephone fax numbers , addresses multi author papers designate one point contact deadlines submission deadline april 30 , 1993 notification acceptance sent may 14 , 1993 materials reproduction must received june 1 , 1993 information , contact robert lipman address please distribute widely possible , thanks robert lipman internet lipman oasys dt navy mil david taylor model basin lip ocean dt navy mil computational signatures \( 301 \) 227 3618 structures group , code 2042 \( 301 \) 227 5753 bethesda , maryland 20084 5000 stockings long legs sixth sick 's sixth sheep 's sick
fox graphics cs nyu edu \( david fox \) subject newsgroup split reply tdawson engin umich edu 's message 19 apr 1993 19 43 52 gmt nntp posting host graphics cs nyu edu organization courant institute mathematical sciences 1993apr19 unocal com 1quvdoinn3e7 srvr1 engin umich edu lines 16 concerning proposed newsgroup split , personally favor learn awful lot aspects graphics reading group , code hardware algorithms think making 5 different groups wate , result posts week per group kind like convenience one big forum discussing aspects graphics anyone else feel way \? curious disagree could learn amount reading split groups , would make things easier us less waste creating news groups bit shuffling problem posts per week per group spend much time david
microsoft com \( peter \) subject jpeg file format \? organization microsoft corp lines 11 could find description jpg file format \? specifically need know jpg file find height width image , perhaps even number colors used suggestions \? peter \( \) \( \) \( uucp microsoft \? \) \( compuserve , nothing \? \) \( \) \( \)
rgc3679 bcstec ca boeing com \( robert g carpenter \) subject please recommend 3d graphics library mac organization boeing lines 24 article john shepardson esh moose slac stanford edu john shepardson esh slac stanford edu \( john shepardson \) writes please offer recommendations \? \( 3d graphics \) fantastic 3d programmers package years little advertised , apparently nobody knows , called 3d graphic tools written mark owen micro system options seattle wa reviewed year ago really 's capabilities also includes tons code many aspects mac programming \( including graphics \) , 24 bit graphics , database representing graphical objects , well written \( mpw c , think c , hypercard \) code highly reusable last time checked price around 150 well worth \( 206 \) 868 've talked mark faxed literature , though n't helpful list routine names , 241 names product info sheet explained package capabilities also found review april may '92 look like good package current price 295 us
lusardi cs buffalo edu \( christopher lusardi \) subject looking mr organization state university new york buffalo comp sci lines 9 nntp posting host cs buffalo edu anyone transform c could send \? help accepted , , lot au music ftp sounds sdsu edu , cat file au dev audio \( ub library catalog telnet bison acsu buffalo edu \( doubt ask xarchie , , \)
rastek com \( mark larsen \) subject ray tracer ms dos \? organization rastek corporation , huntsville , al lines 32 article srvr1 engin umich edu tdawson llullaillaco engin umich edu \( chris herringshaw \) writes sorry repeat request , anyone know good free shareware program create ray traces save bit mapped files \? \( course thing \) thanks advance daemon 2 books published books come c source code floppies programming 3 dimensions , 3 graphics , ray , animation christopher watkins larry sharp ray tracing c christopher watkins , stephen b coy , mark first book great intro 3 , ray tracing animation programs disk compiled ready run glanced second book also appears good hope helps ! mark larsen rastek com r2 unit bad motivator ! luke , star wars
phew gu uwa edu au \( patrick hew \) subject color pict spinning earth organization university western australia lines 22 nntp posting host mackerel gu uwa edu au conrad edu \( acs \) writes sorry wrong place post net earlier year came upon something called color pict spinning earth assuming animation sequence earth 's rotation \( revolution always get mixed \) time found would even support color graphics n't bother get pict fairly nice system cant find pict ! anyone help please post e mail thanks advance eric \( conrad edu \) likewise please first time 've hear , 've looking something like past months patrick hew 2nd year science engineering university western australia phew tartarus uwa edu au phew mackerel gu uwa edu au
subject cornerstone dualpage driver wanted ebc ee \( \) nntp posting host ebc ee x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 12 lines 12 looking window 3 1 driver cornerstone dualpage \( cornerstone technology , inc \) video card anybody know , \? one \? thanks info , nis nis \( ebc ee \)
jmcocker eos ncsu edu \( mitch \) subject newsgroup split originator jmcocker 100lez eos ncsu edu reply jmcocker eos ncsu edu \( mitch \) organization north carolina state university , project eos lines 29 article fox graphics nyu edu , fox graphics cs nyu edu \( david fox \) writes concerning proposed newsgroup split , personally favor learn awful lot aspects graphics reading group , code hardware algorithms think making 5 different groups wate , result posts week per group kind like convenience one big forum discussing aspects graphics anyone else feel way \? curious disagree could learn amount reading split groups , would make things easier us less waste creating news groups bit shuffling problem posts per week per group spend much time yes , n't size newsgroup issue \? sorry covered , comp animation get much traffic per day \? 50 articles \? maybe 70 extremely heavy day \? 've following group four months , n't recall ever seeing flood posts split would warranted 2 cents , mitch jmcocker eos ncsu edu doth render 386sx 20 knoweth frustration
rued daimi aau dk \( thomas rued j \) subject scf files , help needed organization daimi computer science department , aarhus university , denmark lines 15 tlc cx5 com writes second problem ca n't find graphics program open display files couple image conversion programs , none mention scf files rix 's files extension sci scf raw file 256 color palette first 10 bytes kind header , name rix among unknown stuff 768 bytes palette info \( 3 256 colors rgb \) picture raw format dont know make viewer description get vpic able read files ! regards thomas
hans cs kuleuven ac \( hans \) subject conversion pic format files hpgl files nntp posting host cs kuleuven ac organization dept lines 20 hello , anybody help conversion pic format files hpgl files question follows possible convert files generated pic preprocessor format hpgl format , suitable sending plotter hardware involved ibm risc 6000 running aix 3 2 3 done software involved , available , cost , problems \? regards , dani consultants , belgium dani
haston utkvx utk edu \( haston , donald wayne \) subject hijaak news software vax vms vnews 1 41 keywords hijaak organization university tennessee computing center lines 14 heard impressive things \( windows \) currently , use shareware program called graphics workshop kinds things hijaak shareware programs \? experience hijaak \? programs better \? please email , help wayne haston haston utkvx utk edu thanks !
wisdom attmail com \( bill myers \) subject graphics libraries reply prism gatech edu 's message 21 apr 93 12 56 08 gmt organization lib news organization lines 28 anyone experience figaro form hoops ithaca software \? would appreciate comments yes , couple years ago , comparison two products may changed , goes far phigs implementation , figaro fine , phigs ! personally , hate phigs find low level also dislike structure editing , find impossible , enough phigs found hoops system full featured easy use support rendering methods software hardware support , documentation good , easily portable systems would happy elaborate specific questions 's ya `o ' bill wisdom attmail com phone \( 216 \) 831 2880
scott gov \( michael scott \) subject canon copier printer postscript questions nntp posting host gov organization frederick cancer research development center lines 53 printer model specification canon 500 \( color laser copier \) ps unit \( postscript intelligent processing unit \) hello , recently purchased expensive nice color copier printer want able print sgi iris network copier printer parallel scsi interface configured printer lp system using parallel interface print postscript files printer also print rgb files , turn converted postscript internal filter canon 500 publication quality printer quality postscript less acceptable create postscript files programs , showcase , xv , tops convert postscript tops use l option specify halftone screen density 98 rather default 40 output better , still much less acceptable note , starting screen image rgb image format translating image postscript suspect could use scsi interface would get higher quality pictures purchased software drives printer scsi port knowledge software 5000 come warranty management want spend much money without assurance product work questions anybody net uses printer using scsi parallel port \? quality \? way create high quality postscript \? limiting component , postscript language postscript printer \? big question get software drive scsi port printer \? please email directly , n't read news regular basis post summary thanks advance e mail scott gov , phone \( 301 \) 846 title sr systems manager analyst
cs ruu nl \( schot \) subject ray tracing pictures organization utrecht university , dept computer science lines 23 interested ray traced pictures , nice example alt binaries pictures misc file called gif shows yes ! ! resolution 1024x768 , colours 256 \( \) tga \( 24 bit \) version also available , bit big \( 2 4mb \) post picture created pov ray enjoy ! cs ruu nl schot \( cs ruu nl \)
td alice att com \( tom duff \) subject tiff philosophical significance 42 article alice organization bell laboratories , murray hill nj lines 3 ulrich galki toppoint de wrote anyone suggestions 42 came \? forty two six times nine
ds aris nswc navy mil \( \) subject 3d display software organization nswc lines 19 need displaying 2 1 2 surfaces x , using xlib , xt xm anyone know package , available internet , able work \? looking stand alone package providing similar functions available khoros , without numerous libraries required want able recompile run various platforms , \( unix \) help appreciated tel 1 \( 703 \) 663 l 115 , nswc fax 1 \( 703 \) 663 1939 dahlgren , va 5000 , usa email ds aris nswc navy mil
e sink uiuc edu \( eric w sink \) subject looking wmf converter keywords wmf , reply e sink uiuc edu originator sink cso uiuc edu organization university illinois urbana lines 19 buck hq ileaf com \( david \) writes i'm looking leads source good windows meta file converter interpreter need use outside windows environment pd sources preferred , requirement please reply address related topic , searching \( success \) specification enhanced metafile format original wmf format \( graphics file formats , levine et al \) , info 32 bit version pointers \? eric w sink , spyglass earth , humans ability 1800 drive content bad situations savoy , il vice versa e sink uiuc edu 217 355 6000
mark ocsmd ocs com \( mark wilson \) subject tiff philosophical significance 42 \( silly \) organization online computer systems , inc x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 lines 20 mark cartwright \( markc emx utexas edu \) wrote well , 42 binary , would forget answer question life , universe , everything else quote douglas adams round way course question yet discovered discovered \( sort \) question 7 times 8 \? arthur dent objected , unfortunately , factually inaccurate , effort discover question begun last effort , believe , likely take far longer lifespan universe , fact several ! mark wilson , online computer systems 1 800 922 9204 1 301 601 2215 \( try email address mark ocsmd ocs com \) file disclaims everything signed signature , mean !
bockamp informatik tu muenchen de \( florian bockamp \) subject wanted matrox pg 1281 cv driver originator bockamp informatik tu muenchen de organization technische universitaet muenchen , germany lines 24 hi ! need windows 3 1 driver matrox pg 1281 cv svga card moment windows runs 640x480 mode driver card , please send inf bockamp informatik tu muenchen de thanks ! florian bockamp ''' bockamp informatik tu muenchen de \( \) ooo \( \) ooo 's bug , 's undocumented feature !
jack robotics jpl nasa gov \( jack morrison \) subject fixed point math library organization jet propulsion laboratory lines 11 distribution usa reply jack robotics jpl nasa gov nntp posting host jpl nasa gov anyone written seen c library c class fixed point math , good articles \? pretty much know , wheels invent moment thanks ! typing \? call 1 818 354 jack robotics jpl nasa gov jack morrison jet propulsion lab 102 4800 oak grove dr , pasadena ca 91109
cleveland freenet edu \( james k black \) subject needed algorithms 2 3 object recognition organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 23 reply cleveland freenet edu \( james k black \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu hi , friend working 2 3 object recognition looking references describing algorithms following subject areas thresholding edge segmentation sobel operator chain codes anybody willing post algorithm implemented demonstrates topics , would much appreciated please post replies e mail address requested post summary newsgroup couple weeks thanks advance replies james city ac uk
tmc spartan ac brocku ca \( tim ciceran \) subject hijaak organization brock university , st catharines ontario x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 15 haston , donald wayne \( haston utkvx utk edu \) wrote currently , use shareware program called graphics workshop kinds things hijaak shareware programs \? also use graphic workshop differences know hijaak screen capture capabilities convert couple file formats \( n't know specifically one \) april 13 issue pc magazine test twelve best selling image capture convert utilities , including hijaak tmc \( tmc spartan ac brocku ca \)
wdm world std com \( wayne michael \) subject adobe photo shop type software unix x motif platforms \? summary searching adobe photo shop type software unix x motif platforms keywords image enhancement organization n lines 19 hello , searching quality image enhancement manipulation package unix x motif platforms comparable adobe photo shop mac able find , would appreciate information products could provide would particularly interested software runs hp sun workstations , require special add hardware , would also interested solutions thank wayne wayne michael wdm world std com
ab nova cc purdue edu \( allen b \) subject tiff philosophical significance 42 organization purdue university lines 39 article prestonm cs man ac uk prestonm cs man ac uk \( martin preston \) writes use pd c library reading writing tiff files \? took good 20 minutes start using app certainly use whenever tiff , usually works well 's point i'm philosophically opposed complexity complexity led poor tiff writers making bizarre files , inability load tiff images \( though 'll save , course \) , general inability interchange images different environments despite fact think understand tiff saying goes , 's i'm worried 's assholes ! 've big trouble misuse abuse tiff years , chalk immense \( unnecessary \) complexity format words tiff 5 0 spec , appendix g , page g 1 \( capitalized emphasis mine \) problem sort success tiff designed powerful flexible , expense simplicity takes fair amount effort handle options currently defined specification \( probably application complete job \) , currently way sure able import tiff image , since many image generating applications program \( worse applications \) ca n't read every tiff image , means wo n't might deal would want images trapped format \? n't neither anyone agrees reasoning anyone , course ! \) ab
subject marching cubs bert cs byu edu distribution world organization byu keywords cube , program , c nntp posting host quadra byu edu lines 24 hello , hello , wondering anyone knew pc mac implementation marching cubes algorithm output individual faces application , might c source code could modify implement algorithm get individual faces thanks advance tracy tracy j phone \( 801 \) 378 fax \( 801 \) 378 address brigham young university department psychology e mail bert cs byu edu provo , ut 84602 usa
chert dungeon com \( chert \) subject epson \( hpgl \) 4 pen plotter w 340 pens 500 b summary hp keywords plotter hp epson organization dis distribution usa lines 30 greetings , epson hi 80 4 pen plotter forsale emulates hp i'm sure option board emulation serial interface hardware handshake also 340 pens follows 10 packs 4 black oil based , 16 packs 4 red , green , blue , black pens , 22 packs 4 black , 7 packs 4 r , g , blue , black , 1 pack 6 multi color pens , 114 assorted non packaged pens mostly colored plotter used tested using windows drivers hp hp worked fine accepts either b sized paper \( 8 5 x 11 \) figure plotter worth 300 pens worth least another 200 one thing certain , wo n't need purchase pens quite packaged pens sealed still fresh rest seem function well 'd willing sell pens seperate anyone interested i'm selling got hp laserjet n't need color 'd like 350 best offer chert chert chert dungeon com chert dungeon lonestar org panic cat power cord !
netcom com \( chris russell \) subject tiff philosophical significance 42 \( silly \) organization adaptive solutions , custom software support 909 861 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 40 mark wilson \( mark ocsmd ocs com \) wrote mark cartwright \( markc emx utexas edu \) wrote 42 binary , would forget answer question life , universe , everything else course question yet discovered discovered \( sort \) question 7 times 8 \? read 's special prize bottom amaze friends gain respect peers carry long number 42 original question meaning life , universe , everything answer generated deep thought \( 2nd largest computer ever created \) 42 deep thought realized understand answer , one must really know question unfortunately , n't able help build largest computer \( named earth \) could figure real question \( know background knowledge everyone bear sec \) arthur pulled scrabble tiles bag , spelled nine times six \? \( like \) however , clear monkey man right question brain , especially since lady diner \( moments later \) came answer everyone could get along hand , marvin said saw answer dent 's brain , lets presume 's correct well , nine times six forty two ! ! ! base 13 chew awhile \) chris russell custom software , networks , case tools , consulting adaptive solutions sun sparc , sgi iris , hp apollo , macintosh , pc internet netcom com gte 909 861 u mail p box diamond bar , ca
fel tno nl \( q van \) subject sphere 4 points \? organization tno physics electronics laboratory lines 26 another useful method based least estimation sphere equation parameters points \( x , , z \) spherical surface radius r center \( , b , c \) written \( x \) 2 \( b \) 2 \( z c \) 2 r 2 equation rewritten following form 2cz r 2 2 b 2 c 2 x 2 2 z 2 approximate left hand part f \( x , , z \) p1 x p2 x p3 z p4 1 , c 4 , determine 4 parameters p1 p4 minimise average error f \( x , , z \) x 2 2 z 2 2 recipes c' found algorithms solve parameters best fitting sphere center \( , b , c \) \( p1 2 , p2 2 , p3 2 \) radius r sqrt \( p4 b b c c \) , last , solve sphere problem , least situations think \? quick van , fel tno nl
cacs usl edu \( rao \) subject polygon fill routine needed organization center advanced computer studies lines 18 hi , looking polygon fill routine fill simple 4 sided polygons one routine c help saving reinventing time thanx advance rao
mikec sail labs tek com \( micheal cranford \) subject disney animation organization tektronix , inc , beaverton , lines 5 anyone tell anything disney animation software package \? note followup line \( colleague \)
kmembry viamar uucp \( kirk membry \) subject rumours 3do \? \? \? reply rutgers ! viamar ! kmembry organization private system lines 11 read issue 2 wired magazine long article hype 3do 've noticed every article talks designers great , never show pictures output \( least pictures one understand \) kirk membry age age industry rutgers ! viamar ! kmembry alexander rodchenko
doug hparc0 aus hp com \( doug parsons \) subject 3d studio v2 01 differences previous version organization hp australasian response centre \( melbourne \) x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 5 lines 10 fombaron marc \( fombaron ufrima imag fr \) wrote significant differences v2 01 v2 00 \? thank helping recall , differences 3ds set parameters defaults changed slightly 'll look get home let know , n't enough actually warrant upgrading
mz moscom com \( matthew zenkar \) subject cview answers organization moscom corp , e rochester , ny lines 19 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 ray knight \( salestech com \) wrote nx10 mik uky edu \( bryan k williams \) writes majority users floppy well , us 1400 picture cd roms would like use cview fast works well , ca n't moron lacked foresight create temp file program 's path , current \? actually flexible way create temp files check temp tmp environment variable create files drive directory variable pretty much standard dos , windows os 2 applications unfortunately , cview pay attention temp environment variable matthew zenkar mz moscom com
davidr rincon ema rockwell com \( david j ray \) subject tiff philosophical significance 42 organization rockwell international x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 lines 16 martin preston \( prestonm cs man ac uk \) wrote mentor cc purdue edu ab nova cc purdue edu \( allen b \) writes 've got 6 0 spec \( obviously since quoted last posting \) gripe tiff 's far complicated nearly infinitely easier write read , use pd c library reading writing tiff files \? took good 20 minutes start using app martin name pd c library tiff 'd like get copy , ca n't archie something n't filename thanks
cna tek com \( tony \) subject need info cc mail file format organization tektronix , inc , redmond , oregon lines 13 need file format cc mail file formats seems pcx based , twist first page multi page fax come readable pages disappear format seems anybody got clues \? give email faxes secretary order get 'em want filter cc mail p nb come think , p nb cc mail would nice master cna tek com
morley camosun bc ca \( mark morley \) subject medical images via gopher \? nntp posting host camosun bc ca organization camosun college , victoria b c , canada x newsreader tin 1 1 pl4 lines 11 days back someone posted info gopher site could search medical graphics , etc could someone please repost mail copy \? 'd greatly appreciate thanks ! mark mark morley , unix sun manager net morley camosun bc ca camosun college campus tel \( 604 \) 370 road room 143 tech fax \( 604 \) 370 3660 victoria , b c canada
seth acpub duke edu \( seth wandersman \) subject morphing reply seth acpub duke edu \( seth wandersman \) lines 6 nntp posting host acpub duke edu keywords looking morphing programs dec 's pc 's looked program called dmorph using archie could find found call grayscale images anyone know look \?
raymaker bcm tmc edu \( mark raymaker \) subject graphics driver standards organization baylor college medicine , houston , tx lines 21 nntp posting host bcm tmc edu keywords graphics , standards researcher collecting impulses human heart complex analog digital system designed information eisa bus hp computer running dos lap dos extender want purchase high performance video card 3 modeling aware company called matrox concerned getting married company video routine library would hope flexibility choose several card manufacturers standard video driver would like write generic code code could easily moved cards computer operating systems future hope \? information would greatly appreciated please , possible , respond directly internet mail raymaker bcm tmc edu thanks
xrcjd mudpuppy gsfc nasa gov \( charles j divine \) subject tiff philosophical significance 42 \( silly \) organization nasa gsfc greenbelt maryland lines 15 article geraldo cc utexas edu mark cartwright markc emx utexas edu writes well , 42 binary , would forget answer question life , universe , everything else quote douglas adams round way course question yet discovered question later revealed 9 x 6 \? \( base 13 system , course \) chuck divine
eylerken stein u washington edu \( ken \) subject 3d animation station article shelley distribution world organization university washington , seattle lines 18 nntp posting host stein u washington edu looking information 3d animation stations currently market price station 5k 20k , 20 , 000 00 type workstation doesnt matter \( pc , mac , sgi etc \) use bought looked one suggest dream machine , please mail configurations need following 1 type station \( pc , mac etc \) 2 machine 3 software run 4 controller deck model name 5 vendors names numbers thanks advance ken eylerken u washington edu state college
subject xlib 24 bit displays info needed riverdale enet dec com \( rahul \) reply riverdale enet dec com \( rahul \) distribution world organization digital equipment corporation keywords xlib nntp posting host riverdale usu edu lines 23 hi , name rahul ms usu , logan query hp workstation hp series 400 x running true color 24bit color monitor connected machine normally capability display 256 colors max 16 7 million since monitor true color see 16 7 million time que facility x \( c function call \) enable specify rgb combination see screen \? using xstorecolor set max 256 colors que way display true color image true color monitor using xlib function calls \? generating ray traced images 256 colors indeed painful limit besides need facility display true color images generating true color system without color please , anyone help 'd obliged rahul cc usu edu
joshuaf yang earlham edu subject tiff anything \? ! organization earlham college , richmond , indiana lines 10 tiff anything programs ibm \? scanner works tiff , view cshow 8 1 , programs read errors basic tiff jpeg , gif , pcx , bmp , etc \? thanks time email post acceptable joshuaf scan looks like ! know 's tiff ! ! ! !
netcom com \( living edge \) subject imagine pc \? \? organization netcom online communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 8 impulse shipping imagine 486 \? close amiga 's imagine 2 0 , terms features \? roland chia air cooled email netcom com free falling voice \( 209 \) 447 carbon unit
shmuel einstein com \( shmuel einstein \) subject screen capture converter nntp posting host einstein com organization shmuel einstein associates , inc lines 20 small program extract 640x480 image vga 16 color screen , store image tiff file need insert image sales brochure , need printed 4 color mac , would use photoshop separate image 5 eps files , pull quark express , get printed film service bureau however , n't mac , windows would need type operation windows 3 1 environment \? separation programs available net \? good page layout program look \? thanks advance shmuel einstein , shmuel einstein com shmuel einstein associates , inc 9100 blvd , suite 235 e beverly hills , ca 310 273 fax 310 273
hwstock snll llnl gov \( stockman w \) subject dos organization sandia national laboratories lines 3 version dos 386 486 \?
ridout bink plk af mil \( brian ridout \) subject virtual reality x cheap ! organization air force phillips lab lines 23 distribution world nntp posting host bink plk af mil article 1993apr15 mfltd co uk , sts mfltd co uk \( steve sherwood \( x5543 \) \) writes anyone got multiverse work \? built 486 svr4 , mips sun sparcstation seems many bugs simply nothing \( fixing bug variable defined twice two different modules one needed setting static else client core dumped \) steve extn 5543 , sts mfltd co uk , ! uunet ! mfocus ! sts micro focus like pariah , name , rm rf 26 west street living blaze obscurity , rum ruff splat newbury need courage survive day berkshire england \( \) bort \( r \) etry \( \) large hammer built rs6000 \( motif machine \) works fine added objects could get used flying easy cool ! brian
gmt beach cis ufl edu \( gary \) subject 3d animation studio file format \? \? organization univ florida cis dept lines 7 distribution world nntp posting host beach cis ufl edu 3ds file format autodesk 's 3d animation studio available \? thanks , gary \( please respond email hell time keeping news ! ! \) \)
kai h postoffice utas edu au \( kai \) subject ray tracer ms dos \? organization university tasmania lines 33 article srvr1 engin umich edu , tdawson llullaillaco engin umich edu \( chris herringshaw \) wrote sorry repeat request , anyone know good free shareware program create ray traces save bit mapped files \? \( course thing \) thanks advance daemon v v persistance vision raytracer p p v v p p v v v v p v v p v v p v available archie wuarchive graphics type directories ps 's freeware kai kai h postoffice utas edu au 35 ave new town tas ph within australia 002 286 110 elsewhere 61 02 286 110
schwartz ils nwu edu \( diane schwartz \) subject sigkids research showcase call organization institute learning sciences lines 250 distribution world nntp posting host schwartz ils nwu edu sigkids call participation sigkids research showcase learning hip pushing edge education , computer graphics , new technologies , sigkids research showcase provide siggraph 's attendees latest applying computer technology form state art educational experiences hop ! submit works converge disciplines education computer technology possible categories domains include limited interactive stand alone applications self run demonstrations tutorials museum installations collaborative systems hypermedia virtual reality scientific visualization interactive art deadlines may 21 , 1993 submissions due submit diane schwartz siggraph '93 sigkids committee c institute learning sciences 1890 maple avenue , suite 150 evanston , illinois fax 708 491 schwartz ils nwu edu electronic submission form schwartz ils nwu edu submit 1 fill form \( see page 19 siggraph '93 call participation send email schwartz ils nwu edu one faxed \) 2 fill sigkids '93 research showcase submission form \( \) 3 send abstract description submission \( approximately 100 words \) one following ways send 3 hard copies diane schwartz \( via surface mail \) address b fax 1 copy diane schwartz \( 708 \) 491 c email 1 copy diane schwartz schwartz ils nwu edu 4 necessary explain project , additional support material videotapes slides assist selection committee reaching decision highly fax email submissions acceptable please send submission material form \( either surface mail , email , fax exception additional support material sent via surface mail \) note due limited budget , chooses dedicated machine work , pay rental fees hardware personally note contributors outside united states aware customs carrier delays send submissions early cut acm siggraph '93 sigkids research showcase entry form copy form must accompany proposal submit send sigkids research showcase entries diane schwartz siggraph '93 sigkids committee c institute learning sciences 1890 maple avenue , suite 150 evanston , illinois fax 708 491 schwartz ils nwu edu please print contact information name company address city state postal code country daytime phone evening phone fax email additional information title theme piece participant \( s' \) name \( \) collaborator \( s' \) name \( \) hardware \( platform \) 1 needed 2 supplied participant yes 3 dedicated machine \? yes note due limited budget participant must pay rental fees dedicated hardware need assistance \( specify \) software statement please tell us significance work \( less 50 words \) medium \( describe e virtual reality , virtual , interactive multimedia installation , etc \) special requirements physical description power dimensions authorization permission use visual audio event materials used acm sigkids research showcase entry contain work individuals organizations \( including copyrighted musical excerpts thereof \) , understand responsibility secure necessary yes piece contains images , audio , video components yes yes necessary rights use images , audio , video components piece conference presentation release signing form , grant permission consider piece sigkids research showcase maintain copyright work receive full credit wherever work used conference promotional material grant acm siggraph right use slides conference organization publicity , future includes usage posters , brochures , catalogs , promotional items , media broadcast exchange , siggraph provides full author artist credit information promotional material yes grant acm siggraph permission use slides work conference organization publicity signature date acm siggraph makes every attempt respect protect intellectual property rights people organizations preparing material siggraph conferences entry form explains uses siggraph make material requires acknowledge permission use material may involve seeking clearance employer others material , videotapes slides form helps prevent situations whereby presentations include material without permission might lead complaints even legal action form also asks grant siggraph right distribute work , maintain copyright slide sets catalogs publications grant siggraph worldwide distribution rights siggraph marks item publications proper copyright notice , informs viewers items may copied , reproduced , broadcast , used commercial purposes without explicit permission copyright owners addition , form asks acm siggraph may use materials conference organizational promotional material exchange full author artist credit information
omar godzilla osf org \( mark marino \) subject wanted playmation info organization open software foundation lines 21 hi folks , anyone copy playmation 'd willing sell 'd love try , retail moved onto something bigger \( 3ds \) better \( imagine \) , 'd love buy table scraps noone selling , anyone recommend place buy playmation mail order cheap \? thanks advance , mark mark marino omar osf org uunet ! osf ! omar open software foundation 11 cambridge center cambridge , 02142
lerc nasa gov \( marc cooper \) subject marching cubs organization nasa lewis research center cleveland , ohio lines 17 distribution world nntp posting host lerc nasa gov keywords cube , program , c saw subject could think parade wrigley field chicago maybe 's \) marc cooper graphics programmer sverdrup tech child , lerc nasa gov imaginary playmate nasa lewis research center ms 5 11 21000 brookpark dr tom robbins cleveland , oh 44135 \( 216 \) 433 even get blues disclaimer 's mine ! mine ! duck
subject pov file constructor unix x11 craig humphrey comp vuw ac nz \( chumphre \) reply chumphre comp vuw ac nz distribution world organization victoria university wellington new zealand nntp posting host regent comp vuw ac nz lines 13 hi , i'm getting povray wondering graphic package outputs pov files help would appreciated thanks craig n't , nobody saw , ca n't prove anything ccc c ccc c chumphre comp vuw ac nz
nfotis ntua gr \( nick c fotis \) subject radiosity organization national technical university athens lines 34 amann iam unibe ch \( stephan amann \) writes article yuma acns colostate edu , longs lance colostate edu \( xia zhao \) writes article 1993apr19 aragorn unibe ch , write let 's serious i'm working radiosity package , written c would like make public domain 'll announce c g minute finished good news bad news 'll take another 2 months \( least \) finish please note radiosity packages resource listing \( subject 3 ftp list \) greetings , nick nick \( nikolaos \) fotis national technical univ athens , greece home 16 esperidon st , internet nfotis theseas ntua gr halandri , gr 152 32 uucp mcsun ! ariadne ! theseas ! nfotis athens , greece fax \( 30 1 \) 77 84 578 usenet editor comp graphics resource listing soc culture greece faq ntua ua acm student chapter chair 're organizing small conference comp graphics , call 're interested participate nick \( nikolaos \) fotis national technical univ athens , greece home 16 esperidon st , internet nfotis theseas ntua gr halandri , gr 152 32 uucp mcsun ! ariadne ! theseas ! nfotis athens , greece fax \( 30 1 \) 77 84 578
rdrc rpi edu \( thomas e \) subject finding equally spaced points sphere article rpi organization rensselaer polytechnic institute , troy , ny lines 8 nntp posting host rdrc rpi edu hello , know discussed time n't need sphere kind soul code , finally decided upon best \( recall nice , subdivision \) , would appreciative thomas rdrc rpi edu
gordon itd dsto gov au \( gordon \) subject grayscale printer organization itd dsto lines 2 distribution na nntp posting host dsto gov au considered apple laserwriter iig use b w image printing
helios tn cornell edu \( mark e j newman \) subject help advice video system buy keywords video , rs6000 organization cornell university lines 22 question covered elsewhere , apologize , need information fast department given large sum money install video system network ibm rs6000 workstations area expertise , wonder anyone offer advice would like system , based either vhs 8mm video allow one write video , frame frame tape play back real time 's visualization physics problems anyone tell hardware available would work system \? support software obviously needed , nothing particularly sophisticated , since software actually use visualization already written please email replies , n't read group many thanks help dr e j newman department physics , cornell university helios tn cornell edu
tmc spartan ac brocku ca \( tim ciceran \) subject tiff anything \? ! organization brock university , st catharines ontario x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 10 program called graphic workshop ftp wuarchive file msdos graphics directory called grfwk61t zip program od everthing need tmc \( tmc spartan ac brocku ca \)
weilej rpi edu \( jason lee \) subject sun ipx root window display background picture keywords sun ipx background picture article rpi reply weilej rpi edu organization rensselaer polytechnic institute , troy , ny lines 31 nntp posting host rpi edu article 1993apr19 22480 osi com , scott osi com \( scott fleming \) writes hello netters ! fairly weak question ask everybody netland 've looked though last faq comp graphics n't find answer thus post 'll keep short question display raster files , gif files , iff tiff images root window background \? sun ipc , openwindows 3 0 , sun os 4 1 3 helps 've compiled pov sun would like display work done background tile thanks help information provide good day scott fleming osi p 's people provided pov , great ! scott , i'm sure helpful , usually use xv v2 21 use sun , works fine display good number ways \( root one \) 's also possible xv put background automatically login hope helps jason weilej rpi edu btw xv v2 21 anonymous ftp somewhere \( archie fer ! \)
ferdinan oeinck waterland wlink nl \( ferdinand oeinck \) subject detecting double points bezier curves organization node groningen , nl lines 34 renner adobe com \( john renner \) writes article 915 almaden ibm com capelli vnet ibm com \( ron ca ia522b1w165w oeinck waterland wlink nl ferdinand oeinck writes i'm looking information detecting calculating double point cusp bezier curve see maureen stone tony derose , geometric characterization parametric cubic curves , acm tog , vol 8 , 3 , july 1989 , pp 147 163 've used reference , found needed go original tech report maureen stone tony derose , characterizing cubic bezier curves xerox 88 8 , december 1988 first , thanks replied original question 've implemented ideas article i'm satisfied results needed bezier curve approximation routine cases \( generating offset curves \) loops occur fast method detecting generation curve loop although follow article strictly check fourth control point lies loop area , bounded two one complicated instead enlarged loop area surrounded straight lines check simple fast approximation routine never ever outputs self intersecting bezier curves ! ferdinand
mrl dsto gov au subject xv ms dos organization defence science technology organisation lines 43 nntp posting host mrl dsto gov au pascal perret , article 1993apr21 263 eicn etna ch , wrote site clarkson edu aliases grape ecs clarkson edu number 128 153 4 2 pub msdos djgpp pub 's xv221 zip \( \? \) think certainly read answer kevin martin write dv x \( \? \) \? \? \? \? \? \? could someone answer \? \? \? \? funny thing , internet idea xv221 might except might something x windows pcs \( \? know , used , think good , email mrl dsto gov au \) dv x common abbreviation quarterdeck corporation 's desqview x software used dv x yet , reading quarterdeck sent , sounds pretty great allows multiple dos machines way os 2 , without requiring 10 mb ram get os 2 going pre multi tasking network computing proper x windows client server application means dos program used x windows computers network , x windows programs used dv x computer although version unix , effectively many unix 's features , mostly able compile unix type programs using djgpp gnu c compilers advertise regularly major computing programming magazines also internet support online \( support qdeck com \) pascal perret perret eicn etna ch hope helps anyone wanting know phil ryan melbourne , australia
subject looking tseng vesa drivers fi upm es \( \) organization usr local lib organization nntp posting host fi upm es lines 10 hi , first msg net \( actually 3rd copy , dam ed vi ! ! \) look new 0 , comes updated vesa 1 2 drivers almost every known card vesa level 1 2 , 24 bit nice affair driver hope useful ! ! bye
orion oac uci edu \( john peter \) subject need make vga shades nntp posting host orion oac uci edu lines 12 routine changes color \( rgb \) attributes vga adapter , n't work mode need specifically 68 hex obscure mode , course , need change zillions colors 64 shade greyscale , correct memory address pointer need please , someone , need starting address , maybe somewhere find thank john orion oac uci edu
aron tikal ced berkeley edu \( aron bonar \) subject photoshop windows organization university california , berkeley lines 26 distribution world nntp posting host tikal ced berkeley edu article 1993apr22 midway uchicago edu , dgf1 quads uchicago edu \( david farley \) writes article rot qc ca beaver rot qc ca \( andre boivert \) writes looking comments people used heard photoshop windows good \? compare mac version \? lot bugs \( heard windows version needs fine tuning \) \? comments would greatly appreciated thank andre boisvert beaver rot qc ca review mac windows versions either pc week info world week , said windows version considerably slower mac useful comparison would photostyler photoshop windows david n't know 've used photoshop 2 5 486dx 50 quadra 950 'd say roughly equal anything 486 faster systems running 24 bit color amount ram \( 16 megs \) also believe quadra one photoshop accelerators
aron tikal ced berkeley edu \( aron bonar \) subject 3d studio v2 01 differences previous version organization university california , berkeley lines 18 distribution world nntp posting host tikal ced berkeley edu article 1993apr22 hparc0 aus hp com , doug hparc0 aus hp com \( doug parsons \) writes fombaron marc \( fombaron ufrima imag fr \) wrote significant differences v2 01 v2 00 \? thank helping recall , differences 3ds set parameters defaults changed slightly 'll look get home let know , n't enough actually warrant upgrading wrong major improvements 2 01 2 use ipas routines 3d studio increased speed anywhere 30 200 depending ones use group ipas routines buy separate 3d studio package require use 2 01 2 slow 2 00
richter fossi hab weimar de \( axel richter \) subject true color display pov keywords pov , raytracing nntp posting host fossi hab weimar de organization fuer und weimar , germany lines 6 pov renderers ! 've got card try get pov displaying true colors rendering 've tried options univesa driver happens n't correct anybody help \?
inu530n cc monash edu au \( \) subject fractal compression summary looking good reference keywords fractal organization monash university , melb , australia lines 6 hi anybody give book reference title give start fractal image compression technique helps appreciated thanx inu530n cc monash edu au inu530n aurora cc monash edu au
hkuxa hku hk \( abel \) subject developable surface nntp posting host hkuxa hku hk organization university hong kong x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 9 hi netters , currently investigations developable surface anyone familiar topic give information sources allow find infomation developable surface \? thanks help ! abel hkuxa hku hk
sts mfltd co uk \( steve sherwood \( x5543 \) \) subject virtual reality x cheap ! reply sts mfltd co uk organization micro focus ltd , newbury , england lines 39 article plk af mil , ridout bink plk af mil \( brian ridout \) writes article 1993apr15 mfltd co uk , sts mfltd co uk \( steve sherwood \( x5543 \) \) writes anyone got multiverse work \? built 486 svr4 , mips sun sparcstation seems many bugs simply nothing \( fixing bug variable defined twice two different modules one needed setting static else client core dumped \) steve extn 5543 , sts mfltd co uk , ! uunet ! mfocus ! sts micro focus like pariah , name , rm rf 26 west street living blaze obscurity , rum ruff splat newbury need courage survive day berkshire england \( \) bort \( r \) etry \( \) large hammer built rs6000 \( motif machine \) works fine added objects could get used flying easy cool ! brian rs6000 compiler forgiving , think mixed cobol pascal c compiler still would n't complain \) steve extn 5543 , sts mfltd co uk , ! uunet ! mfocus ! sts micro focus like pariah , name , rm rf 26 west street living blaze obscurity , rum ruff splat newbury need courage survive day berkshire england \( \) bort \( r \) etry \( \) large hammer
diablo uucp ! cboesel \( charles boesel \) subject alias phone number wanted organization diablo creative reply diablo uucp ! cboesel \( charles boesel \) x mailer uaccess lite macintosh release 1 6v2 lines 9 phone number alias \? toll free number preferred , available thanks charles boesel diablo creative pro con cboesel diablo uu holonet net 's opposite progress \? 1 510 980 1958 \( pager \) else , congress
diablo uucp ! cboesel \( charles boesel \) subject postscript drawing prog organization diablo creative reply diablo uucp ! cboesel \( charles boesel \) x mailer uaccess lite macintosh release 1 6v2 lines 22 article 1993apr19 2147 informatik tu muenchen de \( comp graphics gnuplot , comp graphics \) , rdd uts ipp garching mpg de \( reinhard drube \) writes article mentor cc purdue edu , cv4 chem purdue edu \( nishantha \) writes could somebody let know drawing utility used manipulate postscript files specifically interested drawing lines , boxes sort postscript contour plots tried xfig impressed 's features however use since cannot use postscript files input programme utility converts postscript xfig format \? help would greatly appreciated nishantha checked adobe illustrator \? unix versions available , depending platform know two unix versions one mach \( next \) irix \( sgi \) may others , sun sparcstation , n't know sure , charles boesel diablo creative pro con cboesel diablo uu holonet net 's opposite progress \? 1 510 980 1958 \( pager \) else , congress
diablo uucp ! cboesel \( charles boesel \) subject illustrator autotrace poorly \? organization diablo creative reply diablo uucp ! cboesel \( charles boesel \) x mailer uaccess lite macintosh release 1 6v2 lines 12 've trying figure way get adobe illustrator auto trace exactly see screen misses edges templates many 6 pixels resulting images useless need exact tracing , approximate 've tried adjusting freehand tolerances well autotrace tolerances n't help suggestions \? charles boesel diablo creative pro con cboesel diablo uu holonet net 's opposite progress \? 1 510 980 1958 \( pager \) else , congress
rrz uni koeln de \( erwin h keeve \) subject cubes organization regional computing center , university cologne lines 27 distribution world nntp posting host rrz uni koeln de keywords polygon reduction hi , anybody know polygon reduction algorithm marching cube surfaces e g schroeder , hints , hugs kisses erwin , , , \( \) ooo \( \) ooo erwin keeve adress peter 2 w 5000 cologne 1 , germany dept phone 49 221 132 \( 192 \) fax 49 221 17 academy media arts cologne email keeve khm uni koeln de
u7711501 bicmos ee nctu edu tw \( jih shin ho \) subject 0 7 organization national chiao tung university x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 285 posted zip alt binaries pictures utilities may distribute program freely non commercial use fee gained warranty author responsible damage caused program important changes since version 1 30 fix bugs file management system \( file displaying \) improve file management system \( user friendly \) fix bug xpm version 3 reading fix bugs targa reading fix bug gem img reading add support pcx gem img writing auto skip macbinary header \( 1 \) introduction program let read , write display images different formats also let special effects \( rotation , dithering \) image main purpose let convert image among different include simple file management system support limit image size currently program supports 8 , 15 , 16 , 24 bits display want use hicolor truecolor , must vesa driver want modify video driver , please read section \( 8 \) \( 2 \) hardware requirement pc 386 better msdos 3 3 higher min amount ram 4m bytes \( maybe less memory also work \) \( recommend min 8m bytes better performance \) hard disk swapping \( virtual memory \) following description borrowed djgpp supported wares 128m extended memory \( expanded vcpi \) 128m disk space used swapping supervga 256 color mode 1024x768 xms memory allocation strategies vcpi programs , qemm , desqview , 386max unsupported dpmi microsoft windows features emulator , 32 bit unix ish environment , flat memory model , svga graphics \( 3 \) installation video drivers , go32 exe borrowed djgpp \( use western digital vga chips , read readme wd \) \( go32 exe modified version vesa completely compatible original version \) people report go32 exe compatible djgpp programs system encounter problem , put go32 exe within search path please read bat run program choose xxxxx grn video driver , add environment go32 example , go32 driver x xxxxx xxxxx grn nc 256 n't , add x xxxxx environment go32 example , go32 driver x xxxxx xxxxx emu x xxxxx notes 1 test grn , et4000 grn vesa grn drivers tested 2 modified et4000 grn support 8 , 15 , 16 , 24 bits display n't need use vesa driver et4000 grn n't work , please try vesa grn 3 want use hicolor truecolor display , please use vesa grn \( except et4000 users \) find vesa bios driver wuarchive wustl edu mirrors msdos graphics godzilla cgl rmit oz au kjb mgl \( 4 \) command line switch usage display display initial display type sort sort method h \? display type 8 \( svga , default \) , 15 , 16 \( hicolor \) , 24 \( truecolor \) sort method , \( 5 \) function key f2 change disk drive ctrl ctrl z change disk drive f3 change filename mask \( see match doc \) f4 change parameters f5 effects picture , eg flip , rotate f7 make directory tag file tag group files \( see match doc \) tag files u untag file untag group files \( see match doc \) u untag files ins change display type \( 8 , 15 , 16 , 24 \) 'read' 'screen' menu f6 , , move file \( \) f8 , , delete file \( \) r , r rename file c , c copy file \( \) z , z display first 10 bytes ascii , hex dec modes f , f display disk free space page move one page tab change processing target arrow keys , home , end , page , page scroll image home left end right page top page bottom 'screen' menu left , right arrow change display type \( 8 , 15 , 16 , 24 bits \) , slide show escape terminate alt x quit program without prompting alt reread directory escape abort function return \( 6 \) support format read gif \( gif \) , japan mag \( mag \) , japan pic \( pic \) , sun raster \( ras \) , jpeg \( jpg \) , xbm \( xbm \) , utah rle \( rle \) , pbm \( pbm \) , pgm \( pgm \) , ppm \( ppm \) , pm \( pm \) , pcx \( pcx \) , japan mki \( mki \) , tiff \( tif \) , targa \( tga \) , xpm \( xpm \) , mac paint \( mac \) , gem img \( img \) , iff ilbm \( \) , window bmp \( bmp \) , qrt ray tracing \( qrt \) , mac pict \( pct \) , vis \( vis \) , pds \( pds \) , viking \( \) , vicar \( vic \) , fits \( fit \) , usenix face \( fac \) extensions \( \) standard extensions write gif , sun raster , jpeg , xbm , pbm , pgm , ppm , pm , tiff , targa , xpm , mac paint , ascii , laser jet , iff ilbm , window bmp , mac pict , vis , fits , face , pcx , gem img read write support full color \( 8 bits \) , grey scale , b w dither , 24 bits image , allowed format \( 7 \) detail initialization set default display type highest display type find allowable screen resolution \( grn video driver \) 1 run program , enter 'read' menu menu press function key except f5 move copy files , enter menu menu much like 'read' menu , allow change directory header line 'read' menu includes \( xx , f xx , xx \) display type f number files number tagged files pressing space 'read' menu let select format use reading current file pressing return 'read' menu let reading current file program automatically determine format file procedure first , check magic number fail , check standard extension still fail , report error pressing 'read' menu delay time 0 , program wait hit key \( except escape \) error occurs , program make beep escape terminate pressing ins 'read' menu change display type pressing alt x 'read' menu quit program without prompting 2 image file successfully read , enter 'screen' menu within menu f5 turn special effect image pressing return show image graphic mode , press return , space escape return text mode pressing tab change processing target program allows special effects 8 bit 24 bit image pressing left , right arrow change display type 8 , 15 , 16 , 24 bits pressing space save current image file b w dither save black white image \( 1 bit \) grey scale save grey image \( 8 bits \) full color save color image \( 8 bits \) true color save 24 bit image program ask questions want write image file questions format dependent finally program prompt filename want save file another directory current directory , please press space pressing space , enter menu change directory want , pressing space program prompt filename pressing return program prompt filename \( filename bar \) 3 program supports 8 , 15 , 16 , 24 bits display 4 program memory greedy n't enough memory , performance poor 5 want save 8 bits image try gif tiff \( lzw \) targa sun raster bmp want save 24 bits image \( lossless \) try tiff \( lzw \) targa ilbm sun raster \( one better true 24bits image \) 6 recommend jpeg storing 24 bits images , even 8 bits images 7 subroutines fully tested 8 document well written problem , suggestion , comment program , please send u7711501 bicmos ee nctu edu tw \( 140 113 11 13 \) need suggestion improve program \( anonymous ftp site \) \( 8 \) tech information program \( user interface subroutines \) written jih shin ho subroutines borrowed xv \( 2 21 \) pbmplus \( dec 91 \) tiff \( v3 2 \) jpeg \( v4 \) reading writing public domain libraries compiled djgpp get whole djgpp package simtel20 mirror sites example , wuarchive wustl edu mirrors msdos djgpp \( 9 \) want modify video driver 1 get source code simtel20 mirror sites 2 hicolor truecolor 15 bits colors set 32768 16 bits colors set 24 bits colors set acknowledgment would like thank authors xv pbmplus permission let use subroutines also thank authors write tiff jpeg libraries thank dj without djgpp ca n't thing pc jih shin ho u7711501 bicmos ee nctu edu tw
schmidt prakinf th ilmenau de \( schmidt \) subject pov file constructor unix x11 nntp posting host merkur prakinf tu ilmenau de reply schmidt prakinf th ilmenau de \( schmidt \) organization technische ilmenau lines 17 article csc st james comp vuw ac nz , craig humphrey comp vuw ac nz \( chumphre \) writes hi , i'm getting povray wondering graphic package outputs pov files help would appreciated thanks good modeling package found \( look irit tar z \) however converter 's format pov format request converter group got response , i'm considering write program sebastian schmidt tu ilmenau institut f informatik
canberra edu au \( c \) subject video card \? \( please help \) organization info sci eng , university canberra , australia lines 13 've got 386 computer warranty trident 8900c video card starting play \( surprise , surprise \) therefore i'm going try exchange better card big question video card high quality acceptable price tag \( student budget \) \? \? \? thank advance
bernard cs su oz au \( bernard gardner \) subject fast polygon routine needed organization department computer science keywords polygon , needed lines 10 reason never saw original post thread , looking fast polygon routines vga pc , really ca n't go past mode x stuff dr dobbs code p domain \( far know \) , original articles , routines presented dumb vga routines , interesting discussion along way interested , could find details issues question , \( home \) bernard
ger cv ruu nl \( ger \) subject postscript drawing prog nntp posting host triton cv ruu nl organization university utrecht , 3d computer vision research group lines 30 0010580b diablo uucp diablo uucp ! cboesel \( charles boesel \) writes article 1993apr19 2147 informatik tu muenchen de \( comp graphics gnuplot , comp graphics \) , rdd uts ipp garching mpg de \( reinhard drube \) writes article mentor cc purdue edu , cv4 chem purdue edu \( nishantha \) writes could somebody let know drawing utility used manipulate postscript files specifically interested drawing lines , boxes sort postscript contour plots tried xfig impressed 's features however use since cannot use postscript files input programme utility converts postscript xfig format \? help would greatly appreciated nishantha checked adobe illustrator \? unix versions available , depending platform know two unix versions one mach \( next \) irix \( sgi \) may others , sun sparcstation , n't know sure include postscript files xfig \( encapsulated postscript info files \) ca n't actually edit postscript file , 're able draw postscript file eps converter \( perl program \) , , ger \( ger cv ruu nl \) 3dcv research group , utrecht , netherlands tel 31 30 50 67 11 room f 01 7 03 fax 31 30 51 33 99 unquestionably , progress average american pays twice much taxes formerly got wages h l
situnaya ibm3090 bham ac uk subject good morphing organization university birmingham , united kingdom lines 8 nntp posting host ibm3090 bham ac uk anyone created interesting animations using dmorph seem unable create anything looks remotely realistic although probably due crappy gif 's using \( one captain kirk one spock \) , i'm bit best type pictures use thanks
br uicvm uic edu subject dtp organization utexas mail news gateway lines 3 nntp posting host cs utexas edu please information desk top post graduate courses possible email address normal mail thanks advance
cwis isu edu \( matthew \) subject diamond stelth 24 good \? organization idaho state university , pocatello lines 26 nntp posting host cwis isu edu bought diamond stealth 24 months ago seems great card especially multimedia presentations runs graphics animation well near full motion video well thing tell lacks speed 256 colors 256 16 7 million un unreal definitly compromise speed seems great card graphics comes great software , im sure part used doesnt seem much faster one thing like loads vesa driver rom startup , \( think \) never load programs require special vesa drivers startup ba ba isu edu
uahcs2 cs uah edu \( lisa dawes \) subject gif aerial maps \? reply uahcs2 cs uah edu \( lisa dawes \) organization computer science dept univ alabama huntsville lines 5 ftp site maps us preferably aerial photographs \? thanks
bbn com \( jon \) subject hidden line removal program organization bolt beranek newman \( bbn \) lines 11 nntp posting host labs n bbn com i'm posting friend immediate need polygon based hidden line removal program deal input output format , need able perspective views orientation range public domain hidden line program around \? seems like , able locate one email replies summarize thanks
louis fr \( louis gonzalez 20 43 41 19 \) subject sphinx satellite image processing x11 organization universite des sciences et de , france lines 106 nntp posting host fr x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 sphinx sphinx user friendly , state art image processing analysis package runs across spectrum high performance computer platforms operating unix x window system created meet daily research needs scientists conducting climate investigations using satellite data remote sensing techniques intuitive graphic interface sphinx features interactive interface pop menus point click dialog boxes makes image processing analysis simple fast accessible enables build attractive image layouts quickly also providing flexibility returning main menu conduct image analysis processing operations image format compatibility using smart read write functions , sphinx allows easily open save image files variety formats using bit , integer real data values sphinx also reads writes common tiff gif formats well compresses image formats save disk space image analysis processing image pixel analysis , sphinx package includes assortment processing tools perform useful statistical mathematical filtering operations , fourier transforms , convolution product principal component analyses interactive interpreter algebraic equations images allows user manipulate combine individual data channels interactively standard fortran notation used formula entry trig transcendental functions satellite spectra orbit analysis sphinx possesses functions simulate satellite signal sensitivity various meteorological satellites \( e g , goes , , noaa , spot etc \) simulations conducted selection standard atmospheric surface conditions instrument spectral bands geometry model computes solar zenith angles , warping , orbit simulation , 3 image projection easy external program interfacing sphinx allows users flexibility integrate externally developed software algorithms processing converting satellite observations sphinx exports imports image files image parameters external programs using special interface functions quick quality presentation sphinx rapidly displays , , high resolution images color tables using six 8 bit 1024x1024 image planes one graphics plane , package conveniently combines color images , graphics text generate sharp digital images articles reports sphinx 's 2 3 graphics editor provides complete flexibility modifying integrating vector graphics analysis plots images , histograms radial graphs package supplies color gray scale output standard inkjet laser printers capabilities sphinx also performs image animation , external graphics importing , mosaic fitting else \? software support development sphinx developed laboratoire \( \) universite de , france package received critical feedback support scientists french national laboratory , centre national de recherche \( \) , french space agency , centre national d'etudes \( \) , sphinx undergoes continued refinement development meet changing research needs advances computer technology package , features line help , supported internet address sphinx fr questions answered version updates provided without delay performance tested selected sphinx analyze process satellite data collected upcoming satellite mission today , sphinx package use nasa goddard space flight center widely used many french laboratories , including centre de recherche en de , ecole superieure , laboratoire d' et de en , laboratoire de test version sphinx available fr \( 134 206 50 4 \) anonymous \( bin cd sphinx get sphinx tar z \) test version output files disable however visualisation graphic functions available sufficient work interested keeping sphinx , send us email receive news package evolution software changing user suggestions appreciate comments
patrick erc msstate edu \( patrick bridges \) subject diamond stelth 24 good \? reply cwis isu edu 's message 23 apr 1993 07 24 32 0600 nntp posting host andy erc msstate edu organization merlin patrick organization lines 7 real problem w stealth 've heard diamond wo n't tell anyone program proprietary clock stuff , x linux 386bsd wo n't run patrick bridges patrick erc msstate edu
dgf1 ellis uchicago edu \( david farley \) subject photoshop windows reply dgf1 midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 37 article agate berkeley edu aron tikal ced berkeley edu \( aron bonar \) writes article 1993apr22 midway uchicago edu , dgf1 quads uchicago edu \( david farley \) writes article rot qc ca beaver rot qc ca \( andre boivert \) writes looking comments people used heard photoshop windows good \? compare mac version \? lot bugs \( heard windows version needs fine tuning \) \? comments would greatly appreciated thank andre boisvert beaver rot qc ca review mac windows versions either pc week info world week , said windows version considerably slower mac useful comparison would photostyler photoshop windows david n't know 've used photoshop 2 5 486dx 50 quadra 950 'd say roughly equal anything 486 faster systems running 24 bit color amount ram \( 16 megs \) also believe quadra one photoshop accelerators went back looked review claim significant differences manipulating 27 meg test file , smaller files , two platforms david david farley university chicago library 312 702 3426 1100 east 57th street , jrl 210 dgf1 midway uchicago edu chicago , illinois 60637
dgf1 ellis uchicago edu \( david farley \) subject illustrator autotrace poorly \? reply dgf1 midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 25 article 0010580b diablo uucp diablo uucp ! cboesel \( charles boesel \) writes 've trying figure way get adobe illustrator auto trace exactly see screen misses edges templates many 6 pixels resulting images useless need exact tracing , approximate 've tried adjusting freehand tolerances well autotrace tolerances n't help suggestions \? charles boesel diablo creative pro con cboesel diablo uu holonet net 's opposite progress \? 1 510 980 1958 \( pager \) else , congress 've exactly problems aldus freehand think one features barely works , everybody feels compelled throw guys \) david farley university chicago library 312 702 3426 1100 east 57th street , jrl 210 dgf1 midway uchicago edu chicago , illinois 60637
sun ac za subject rayshade query article 1993apr23 organization university stellenbosch lines 23 hi interested rayshade 4 00 managed make chessboard rayshade unfortunately still knight \( horse \) ideas \? also looking surface board marble unfortunately black wo n't work well one side anybody ideas nice surfaces \? would also like use image command rayshade command unfortunately manual vague , n't craig kolb 's email address anybody ideas , essential next venture raytracing post finished chessboard \? anybody else using rayshade non unix systems \? fast unix render \? thanks rayshade best program people loves graphics , artistic talent
cern ch \( rene dutch student \) subject interviews graphics package organization cern european lab particle physics lines 7 hello , i'm trying c graphics package interviews besides man pages classes , n't got documentation anything else around \? furthermore , anyone send \( small ! \) example program shows use classes together \? would
mcrcim mcgill edu \( frederic \) subject developable surface organization mcgill research center intelligent machines , montreal , canada lines 38 article hku hk , hkuxa hku hk \( abel \) writes hi netters , currently investigations developable surface anyone familiar topic give information sources allow find infomation developable surface \? thanks help ! abel hkuxa hku hk developable surface lay \( roll \) flat plane \( may require give cut though \) e g , cylinder , cone , plane \( course ! \) surface patch vanishing gaussian \( intrinsic \) curvature \( e , singular , matrix 2nd derivatives adequate coordinate patch \) developable technical words , developable surface locally isometric plane points think also sphere \( earth \) non developable whatever way \( \) cut , able lay flat pieces \( intrinsic curvature nowhere vanishing \) details look book differential geometry treats surfaces \( 2d \) e g , 's book book , author , manfredo p , title differential geometry curves surfaces , year 1976 , publisher prentice hall , note 503 pages enjoy ! frederic mcrcim mcgill edu mcgill university , electrical eng dept , mcrcim , tel \( 514 \) 398 university st , montreal , qc , canada , fax \( 514 \) 398
pinky tamu edu \( man behind curtain \) subject views perspectives \? organization texas university lines 87 nntp posting host tamsun tamu edu keywords perspectives i'm working upon game using isometric perspective , similar used basically , look room looks similar following xxxx xxxxx xxxx xxxx x xxxx xxxx x xxxx xxxx 2 xxxx 1 xxxx x xxxx xxxx x x xxxx xxxx x x xxxx xxxx x xxxx 3 xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx good thing perspective look move around three dimensions still maintain peripheral vision since viewpoint always , routines hard coded particular vantage case , wall two 's rising edge slope 1 4 \( i'm also using mode x , \) 've run two problems i'm sure readers tried , perhaps formulated opinions 1 \) routines drawing walls 1 2 trivial , ran packed planar image , dismayed i'm considered anti aliasing routines \( speed really necessary \) worth effort artist draw wall already skewed , thus assured nice image , much burden \? 2 \) wall 3 presents problem algorithm used tends overly distort original tried decide paper pixels go , failed anyone come method mapping planar shape \? currently take 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 produce 1 2 3 4 33 34 35 36 17 18 19 20 5 6 7 8 49 50 51 52 37 38 39 40 21 22 23 24 9 10 11 12 53 54 55 56 41 42 43 44 25 26 27 28 13 14 15 16 57 58 59 60 45 46 47 48 29 30 31 32 61 62 63 64 line 1 follows slope line 2 directly line 1 line 3 moves line left 4 pixels line 4 line 3 fills shape exactly without pixels causes distortions anyone come better way \? perhaps necessary simply draw original bitmap already skewed \? particularly sticky problems perspective \? planning hidden plane removal using z buffering locations stored \( x , , z \) form noticed , top lines wall 2 \( wall 1 \) parallel bottom lines appears optical illusion \( ie appears either inside outside cube , depending mood \) vanishing points simplifies drawing code objects \( n't change size move room \) 've decided approximation alright , since small large enough distance cause little change apparent size object real perspective drawing hopefully context picture \( ie chairs floor , torches hanging walls \) visual ambiguity thanks advance help till next time , v v email pinky tamu edu sam v
uncc edu \( brian e smith \) subject rayshade query nntp posting host uncc edu reply uncc edu organization university nc lines 22 article sun ac za , sun ac za \( \) writes also looking surface board marble unfortunately black wo n't work well one side anybody ideas nice surfaces \? brass silver \? 've seen real use material post finished chessboard \? right good place ca n't wait see use pov raytracer compatible enough chessboard \? n't know 've got whole picture , n't seem like 's running thrusters ! leonard mccoy guess \? , spock \? 's extraordinary ! james kirk brian smith \( mosaic uncc edu \)
spl dim ucsd edu \( steve lamont \) subject finding equally spaced points sphere organization university calif , san diego microscopy imaging resource lines 326 nntp posting host dim ucsd edu article rpi edu rdrc rpi edu \( thomas e \) writes hello , know discussed time n't need sphere kind soul code , finally decided upon best \( recall nice , subdivision \) , would appreciative one andrew graphics gems glassner got mine think fiddled little bit make deal whatever bizarre problem working time known work spl spheres 9 feb 85 spl thu mar 8 17 17 40 est 1990 include stdio h include math h define pi 3 struct point struct double x , , z static double radius static double xorg static double yorg static double zorg sphere \( r , freq , x , , z \) double r int freq double x double double z int pole double northy , southy , double rtheta , rtheta2 , , , double theta , , thisy , den , struct point node struct point struct p1 , p2 , p3 , p4 , n1 , n2 , n3 , n4 , pt radius r xorg x yorg zorg z north pole 30 0 pi 180 0 northy radius sin \( \) southy radius sin \( \) \( pole 0 pole 2 pole \) \( pole 0 \) radius thisy northy 0 0 else radius thisy southy 36 0 \( theta theta 360 0 theta 60 0 \) rtheta theta pi 180 0 rtheta2 \( theta 60 0 \) pi 180 0 p1 x 0 0 p1 p1 z 0 0 p2 x radius cos \( rtheta \) p2 thisy p2 z radius sin \( rtheta \) p3 x radius cos \( rtheta2 \) p3 thisy p3 z radius sin \( rtheta2 \) \( pole 0 \) make ring go way normals right pt x p3 x pt p3 pt z p3 z p3 x p2 x p3 p2 p3 z p2 z p2 x pt x p2 pt p2 z pt z den \( p1 x p1 x \) \( p1 p1 \) \( p1 z p1 z \) den sqrt \( den \) \( den ! 0 0 \) radius den p1 x p1 p1 z den \( p2 x p2 x \) \( p2 p2 \) \( p2 z p2 z \) den sqrt \( den \) \( den ! 0 0 \) radius den p2 x p2 p2 z den \( p3 x p3 x \) \( p3 p3 \) \( p3 z p3 z \) den sqrt \( den \) \( den ! 0 0 \) radius den p3 x p3 p3 z subdivide tri \( p1 , p2 , p3 , freq \) body \( theta 0 0 theta 360 0 theta 60 0 \) rtheta theta pi 180 0 rtheta2 \( theta 60 0 \) pi 180 0 \( theta 36 0 \) pi 180 0 \( theta 96 0 \) pi 180 0 p1 x radius cos \( rtheta \) p1 northy p1 z radius sin \( rtheta \) p2 x radius cos \( rtheta2 \) p2 northy p2 z radius sin \( rtheta2 \) p3 x radius cos \( \) p3 southy p3 z radius sin \( \) p4 x radius cos \( \) p4 southy p4 z radius sin \( \) den \( p1 x p1 x \) \( p1 p1 \) \( p1 z p1 z \) den sqrt \( den \) \( den ! 0 0 \) radius den p1 x p1 p1 z den \( p2 x p2 x \) \( p2 p2 \) \( p2 z p2 z \) den sqrt \( den \) \( den ! 0 0 \) radius den p2 x p2 p2 z den \( p3 x p3 x \) \( p3 p3 \) \( p3 z p3 z \) den sqrt \( den \) \( den ! 0 0 \) radius den p3 x p3 p3 z den \( p4 x p4 x \) \( p4 p4 \) \( p4 z p4 z \) den sqrt \( den \) \( den ! 0 0 \) radius den p4 x p4 p4 z subdivide tri \( p1 , p2 , p3 , freq \) subdivide tri \( p3 , p2 , p4 , freq \) return define norm pt \( v \) register double r sqrt \( \( \( v \) x \( v \) x \) \( \( v \) \( v \) \) \( \( v \) z \( v \) z \) \) \( v \) x r \( v \) r \( v \) z r subdivide tri \( p1 , p2 , p3 , \) struct point struct p1 , p2 , p3 int struct point struct n1 , n2 , n3 struct point struct p12 , p13 , p23 double den , \( 0 \) p12 x \( p1 x p2 x \) 2 0 p12 \( p1 p2 \) 2 0 p12 z \( p1 z p2 z \) 2 0 den \( p12 x p12 x \) \( p12 p12 \) \( p12 z p12 z \) den sqrt \( den \) \( den ! 0 0 \) radius den p12 x p12 p12 z p13 x \( p1 x p3 x \) 2 0 p13 \( p1 p3 \) 2 0 p13 z \( p1 z p3 z \) 2 0 den \( p13 x p13 x \) \( p13 p13 \) \( p13 z p13 z \) den sqrt \( den \) \( den ! 0 0 \) radius den p13 x p13 p13 z p23 x \( p2 x p3 x \) 2 0 p23 \( p2 p3 \) 2 0 p23 z \( p2 z p3 z \) 2 0 den \( p23 x p23 x \) \( p23 p23 \) \( p23 z p23 z \) den sqrt \( den \) \( den ! 0 0 \) radius den p23 x p23 p23 z subdivide tri \( p1 , p12 , p13 , 1 \) subdivide tri \( p12 , p2 , p23 , 1 \) subdivide tri \( p13 , p23 , p3 , 1 \) subdivide tri \( p12 , p23 , p13 , 1 \) else n1 x p1 x n1 p1 n1 z p1 z norm pt \( n1 \) n2 x p2 x n2 p2 n2 z p2 z norm pt \( n2 \) n3 x p3 x n3 p3 n3 z p3 z norm pt \( n3 \) nothing special poly printf \( f f f f f f n , p1 x xorg , p1 yorg , p1 z zorg , n1 x , n1 , n1 z \) printf \( f f f f f f n , p2 x xorg , p2 yorg , p2 z zorg , n2 x , n2 , n2 z \) printf \( f f f f f f n , p3 x xorg , p3 yorg , p3 z zorg , n3 x , n3 , n3 z \) return steve lamont , sciviguy \( 619 \) 534 7968 spl szechuan ucsd edu san diego microscopy imaging resource uc san diego la jolla , ca 92093 0608 car car , bumper strip seen 805
beck irzr17 inf tu dresden de \( andre beck \) subject fonts pov \? \? organization dept computer science , tu dresden , germany lines 57 distribution world reply andre beck irs inf tu dresden de nntp posting host irzr17 inf tu dresden de keywords fonts , raytrace article wampyr cc uow edu au , g9134255 wampyr cc uow edu au \( coronado emmanuel abad \) writes seen several ray traced scenes \( mtv rayshade \? \? \) stroked fonts appearing objects image fonts chars color , depth even textures associated wondering , possible pov \? \? hi noel , 've made attempts write converter reads adobe type 1 fonts , , result generic 3d object could used pov f problem i'm currently stuck theres algorithm arbitrary polygonal shape delaunay seems limited convex constrained delaunay may okay , code example another way may variation , using create b w picture \( big \) text need , f using postscript previewer , use white black , exactly images white parts \( 's still open backside \) close , mirror compound original example object union height field gif gif height field gif gif scale 1 1 1 texture glass translate 0 5 0 0 5 center rotate 90 0 0 rotate upwards scale 10 5 100 scale bigger thicker translate 0 2 0 final placement gif gif arbitrary size containing black white times roman 256 points brain inside andre' beck \( abpsoft \) mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de
samson prlhp1 prl philips co uk \( mark samson \) subject psygnosis cd titles \( rumours 3do \? \? \? \) reply samson prlhp1 uucp \( mark samson \) organization philips research laboratories , , uk lines 42 article 1993apr20 rchland ibm com ricardo rchland vnet ibm com \( ricardo hernandez muchado \) writes anyway , still , need sprites lot tricks making cool awesome games \( read psygnosis \) speaking psygnosis , licensed games philips media international cd following recently posted message cd section multimedia forum seventh guest licensed virgin games philips interactive media international worldwide cd rights also licensed p graphics \( uk \) psygnosis \( uk \) three titles adapted cd using full potential cartridge , meaning , using additional memory well motion video capabilities titles europe available worldwide also , lemmings 1 2 licensed psygnosis , well striker soccer rage \( uk \) n't know titles available work even started \( n't expect cd retailer yet \) also mention future nintendo cd games issue uk magazine mario hotel mentioned 75 levels mark although work philips , n't work cd multimedia info provided good faith 've read represent statement philips mark samson information technology group , philips research laboratories , cross oak lane , , surrey tel \( ext \) tel \( labs \) telex fax email samson unix samson prl philips co uk binary files packages
sherry cs okstate edu \( sherry robert mich \) subject scf files , help needed organization oklahoma state university lines 27 article 1993apr21 cx5 com , tlc cx5 com 've got old demo disk need view made using rix files two diskette set end scf demo vga resolution \( 256 colors \) , n't know spatial resolution according manual scf files 640x480x256 first problem try run demo , screen two black bars cut across \( horizontally \) screen , top third bottom third screen bars 1 inch wide , demo \( animation part \) seems running fine second problem ca n't find graphics program open display files couple image conversion programs , none mention scf files may try vpic , think handles 256 color rix files ok rob sherry sherry cs okstate edu
chris sarah lerc nasa gov \( chris johnston \) subject 3d studio v2 01 differences previous version organization nasa lewis research center , cleveland , oh lines 13 distribution world reply chris sarah lerc nasa gov \( chris johnston \) nntp posting host looney lerc nasa gov keywords 3d studio 2 01 understand , difference 3d studio 2 00 2 01 mainly ipas interface , along small bug fixes ipas code runs lot faster newest version chris johnston \( 216 \) 433 materials engineer \( 216 \) 433 nasa lewis research center internet chris sarah lerc nasa gov 21000 brookpark rd ms 105 1 cleveland , oh usa resistance futile !
cch coventry ac uk \( odd frog \) subject photoshop windows nntp posting host cc sysh organization odd frogs balloon shop lines 21 article rot qc ca beaver rot qc ca \( andre boivert \) writes looking comments people used heard photoshop windows good \? compare mac version \? lot bugs \( heard windows version needs fine tuning \) \? also soon , anyone got date \? andy andrew leahy cch coventry ac uk odd frog piece work man ! noble reason ! infinite faculties ! form moving , express admirable ! action like angel ! like god ! beauty world , paragon animals ! yet dust \? man delights shakespeare , hamlet
brian contex com \( brian love \) subject tiff philosophical significance 42 organization design systems lines 9 article alice att com td alice att com \( tom duff \) writes ulrich galki toppoint de wrote anyone suggestions 42 came \? forty two six times nine small values six nine \( sorry , tom , could n't resist \)
idt unit \( erik \) subject graphics formats reply idt unit \( erik \) organization norwegian technology lines 14 i'm currently looking information different graphics formats , especially ppm , pcx bmp perhaps gif anyone know exist files site describes formats \? \? \? thanks ! \( \) erik , email idt unit \( \) oooo faculty computer science norwegian institute technology , trondheim oooo make sense , cents !
imaging club office wang com \( imaging club \) subject wanted info image databases organization mail news gateway wang labs lines 14 wisconsin writes would like references introductory material image databases 'd happy us \( international \) snail mail technical information imaging databases anyone needs , provide address hard copy \( email \) 're focusing mostly open pace , oracle , ingres , , sybase , gupta , regarding imaging databases installed \( 1 , 000 installed production new ones going novell , rs 6000 , hp unix workstations \) work visual basic michael willett office wang com
prestonm cs man ac uk \( martin preston \) subject problems grabbing block starbase screen keywords starbase , hp lines 26 moment i'm trying grab portion starbase screen , store area memory data needs 24 bit format \( n't problem app running 24 bit screen \) , though i'm exact format \( actually intend write data tiff bits problem \) anyone know grab portion screen \? block read call seems grab screen , 24 bit colour , whatever screen window type get 1 byte per pixel thanks advance , martin martin preston , \( preston manchester ac uk \) computer graphics computer graphics unit , manchester computing centre , university manchester , load balls manchester , u k , m13 9pl phone 275
tom inferno uucp \( tom \) subject xv ms dos \? ! \? organization corporation lines 30 nntp posting host hi recently found xv ms dos subdirectory gnu cc \( \) use frequently xv sun spark station 1 never problems , start computer h option , display help menu start gif file hard disk turns 2 3 seconds prompt come back computer little 386 25 copro , 4 mega rams , tseng 4000 \( 1m \) running ms dos 5 0 himem sys emm386 sys go32 exe driver run know solution run xv \? \? \? help would probably need x server running top ms dos use desqview x ms dos x server xx x technical documentation writing 90 words xx x 10 features 1 customers xx x actually use xx x pc xx x n't opinions , factual interpretations power xx x x xx x xx uunet ! rutgers ! ! inferno ! tom found x xx corporation x xx 4000 veterans memorial highway , ny x xx x xx pay write , express opinions
zeno genetics washington edu \( sean lamont \) subject closed curve intersection article shelley organization abstract software lines 10 nntp posting host genetics washington edu would like reference algorithm detect whether one closed curve bounded number bezier curves lies completely within another closed curve bounded bezier curves thanks sean lamont ask fonts zeno genetics washington edu professional collection next lamont com abstract software
thomas ramsey cs laurentian ca \( f thomas \) subject print graph printer organization dept computer science , laurentian university , sudbury , lines 6 seems simple problem cannot solve wrote c program draw polygons screen , want print printer , press print screen keyboard problem printer print ascii characters way print screen without using print screen \? \? \? \? please help !
diablo uucp ! cboesel \( charles boesel \) subject ftp achive usgs terrain data organization diablo creative reply diablo uucp ! cboesel \( charles boesel \) x mailer uaccess lite macintosh release 1 6v2 lines 6 ftp archive united states geological services \( usgs \) terrain data \? , \? charles boesel diablo creative pro con cboesel diablo uu holonet net 's opposite progress \? 1 510 980 1958 \( pager \) else , congress
world std com \( stephen c \) subject need postscript info summary seeking algorithm keywords postscript emulation adjust stroke organization sq software via world public access unix , brookline , lines 31 need information display postscript feature feature adjusts endpoints lines displayed line looks better low resolution devices postscript literature explains process extent also give example emulate postscript environments absent suggested emulation modify coordinates endpoints line using following formula coordinate new coord \( round \( old coord 0 25 \) \) 0 25 end coordinates ending 25 reading thought might actually new coord \( \( \( old coord 2 \) \) 2 \) 0 25 results coordinates ending either 0 25 0 75 whichever closer actual comparisons display postscript , find neither dps really uses since like dps result looks better stuff looks , 'd like know anyone knows dps willing able tell thanks , steve world std com
news magnus acs ohio state edu subject package fashion designer \? nntp posting host bottom magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 1 article probably generated buggy news reader
magnus acs ohio state edu \( ge wang \) subject packages fashion designers \? nntp posting host bottom magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 3 hello , looking commercial software packages professional fashion designers recommendation pointers greatly appreciated please e mail , may thanks million ge
ajackson cch coventry ac uk \( alan jackson \) subject mpeg location nntp posting host cc sysh organization coventry university lines 11 anyone tell find mpeg viewer \( either dos windows \) thanks advance alan jackson mail ajackson cch cov ac uk liverpool football club simply best 'll never walk alone
cc newcastle edu au subject color palette 256 color vga rainbow organization university newcastle , australia lines 11 anybody know calculate rgb values required set 256 color vga palette colors 0 255 give 256 colors rainbow ie red , orange , yellow , etc help would appreciated please email cc newcastle edu au erik de castro , dept electrical computer eng , uni newcastle , australia
valentin e su subject attractive drawing sphere lines 23 reply su organization inst mech comp equip , moscow , russia p h e r c l e g n n g made attractive program computer drawing sphere pasting paper children , artists education send example alt source wanted , see rotation sphere , interested children design many famous regular polyhedra without serious , print patterns paste spherical models moscow , tel 280 53 53 , 21 o'clock , e mail , valentin
valentin e su subject attractive drawing sphere lines 2 reply su organization inst mech comp equip , moscow , russia subscribe comp graphics quit
holler adsp sub org \( jan holler \) subject newsgroup split reply ! holler adsp sub org organization private lines 24 x newssoftware grn 1 16f \( 10 17 92 \) mike schwartz michael b smith article nerone sylvester cc utexas edu nerone ccwf cc utexas edu \( michael nerone \) writes article 1quvdoinn3e7 srvr1 engin umich edu , tdawson engin umich edu \( chris herringshaw \) writes ch concerning proposed newsgroup split , personally also , readily observable current spectrum amiga groups already plagued mega crossposting thus group split would , likelihood , bring structured environment glad write got flamed along begged crosspost nonsense articles problem crossposting first poster aware posting crossposting , else one never know interested people stay split newsgroups brings even crossposting jan holler , bern , switzerland good good enough , make better ! ! holler adsp sub org \( \( second chance holler unibe ch \) \) \( \( fast mail ! ! ! ! holler cbmvax commodore com \) \)
merlin neuro usc edu \( merlin \) subject tom gaskins pexlib vs phigs programming manuals \( o'reilly \) organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 24 nntp posting host neuro usc edu could someone explain difference tom two books pexlib programming manual phigs programming manual would want buy one book vs book \? 80386 running sco unix \( x11r4 \) desktop , sun iv 360 lab , access variety systems \( alliant fx 2800 , cray mp \) network mostly , would like 3d modeling visualization rat , rabbit , monkey , human brain structure thanks , aj alexander james principal investigator neuroscience image analysis network neuroscience building , fifth floor university southern california university park los angeles , ca
alex falcon demon co uk \( alex \) subject scf files , help needed distribution world organization dis \( organised \) reply alex falcon demon co uk x newsreader simple news 1 90 \( ka9q dis 1 21 \) lines 14 article 1993apr22 daimi aau dk rued daimi aau dk writes rix 's files extension sci scf raw file 256 color palette stuff deleted regards thomas happen know sco rix file \? alex falcon demon co uk
urz unibas ch subject help ! crystal ati gup \? organization university basel , switzerland lines 21 i'm planning buy new vlb eisa system good graphic performance far looked ati gup vlb favorite graphics card recently heard something new card crystal 3 mb true color support 1024x768 costs little ati , ca n't decide one matches better needs technical references performance comparisons \( especially card \) would greatly appreciated peter e mail urz unibas ch switzerland
club msk su \( \) subject news list image processing systems \? distribution eunet reply club msk su organization moscow scientific industrial ass spectrum lines 137 moscow scientific association spectrum offer vision system pc , wich include software set controllers software support family program kit developed kit includes 200 different functions image processing kit works interactive regime , include help non professional users next possibility input frame board family read white image disk print image printer makes arithmetic 2 frames filter image work edit image include users exe modules controller function vs 9 controller load tv images pc vs 9 controller allows one load fragment tv frame field pixels clock rate 14 , 7 mhz loading image 512 pixel line 7 , 4 mhz loading 256 pixels image provides equal pixel size input image horizontal vertical directions number gray levels input modes 256 video signal capture time 2 5s controller purpose controller enter tv images ibm pc machine type controller created base modern elements , including user programmable gate arrays controller allows digitize input signal different resolutions flexible architecture makes possible change technical parameters instead tv signal one process analog signal \( including signals slow speed scanning devices \) controller following technical characteristics memory volume 256 k 2 mb resolution working standard video signal 64x64 pixels resolution working slow input regime pixels video signal capture time 40 ms maximum size screen memory volume 2mb pixels number gray level 256 clock rate input 30 mhz 4 input video multiplexer input output lookup table \( lut \) possibility realize scroll zoom 8 lines external synchronization \( input using external controlling signal \) electronic adjustment black white reference analog digital converter possibility output image color rgb monitor one change listed functions parameters controller image processor image processor allows digitize process tv signal real time possible digitize tv signal 512 512 8 resolution realize arithmetic logic operation two images processor created base modern elements including user programmable gate arrays designed board pc memory volume allows write 256 frames 512 512 8 format possible accumulate 16 images processor following technical characteristics memory volume 64 mb number gray level 256 4 input video multiplexer input output lookup table electronic adjustment black white adc reference image size 256 256 possibility color black white output possibility input slow scan video sources
bates ucsb edu \( andrew bates \) subject renderman discussion \? organization university california , santa barbara lines 12 anyone know site could ftp renderman \? newsgroup discussion information renderman \? i'm new renderman \( mac \) family , 'd like get much info lay hands thanks ! andy bates andy bates
freemant dcs glasgow ac uk \( toby freeman , , , , , \) subject coreldraw bitmap scodal \( 2 \) nntp posting host reply freemant dcs glasgow ac uk organization dept computing science , glasgow university , glasgow lines 52 article zephyr grace cri nz , srlnjal grace cri nz \( \) writes yes aware coreldraw exports scodal try export scodal bitmap say something like cannot export anyone knows way around ears think one \( ideal \) solution use tracing utility \( ca n't remember name , sorry ! \) included corel draw w pack convert bitmaps corel art format imported drawing rather bitmap result file completely corel format problem ! slight problem , makes solution less idea , trace utility spits many points necessary define shapes traced straight lines curves traced many short segments scodal taking much longer image obvious solution time consuming stripping extra points hand using corel ouch ! 've done times wondering anything bitmap scodal part tad cheaper jeff lyall say , n't mind problems , go via route bitmap corel \( via trace \) hand trimming \( using corel \) ! ! ! combine main corel pic \( via import \) scodal cheers , toby ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! toby freeman ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! glasgow university ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! freemant uk ac glasgow dcs ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
tamsun tamu edu \( e b \) subject pov problems tga outputs organization texas university , college station , tx lines 9 distribution world nntp posting host tamsun tamu edu ca n't properly compiled pov unix machine running sunos 4 1 3 problem run sample pov files use exact parameters compiling different tga outputs tga 's okay , 's software help ! ed tamsun tamu edu
oehler yar cs wisc edu \( sane \) subject 48 bit graphics keywords 48 bit alpha channel image organization university wisconsin , madison computer sciences dept lines 15 recently talking possible employer \( mine ! \) \) made reference 48 bit graphics computer image processing system seem remember called image something akin anyway , claimed 48 bit color 12 bit alpha channel 's 60 bits info could possibly \? specifically 48 bit color \? 's 280 trillion colors , many human eye resolve anti aliasing thing \? magic number make work better certain processor also , settle bet roommate , sgi 's flagship products \? know iris , indigo , crimson , ones , top line \? \( sadly , access none dec 5000 25 sigh \) eric oehler oehler picard cs wisc edu
ib ivan asd sgi com \( ivan bach \) subject adobe photo shop type software unix x motif platforms \? nntp posting host ivan asd sgi com organization silicon graphics , inc , mountain view , ca lines 9 shipping one year adobe display postscript \( dps \) silicon graphics workstations , file servers , supercomputers adobe illustrator 3 5 silicon graphics machines released last february adobe sgi announced last october photoshop available sgi systems 1993 initial release support 24 bit color graphics ivan bach , ib sgi com disclaimer speak employer
danj welchgate welch jhu edu \( dan jacobson \) subject ftp achive usgs terrain data organization johns hopkins univ welch medical library lines 123 diablo uucp ! cboesel \( charles boesel \) writes ftp archive united states geological services \( usgs \) terrain data \? , \? point gopher client welch jhu edu select following directories 13 search retrieve software 8 search retrieve graphics software data 'll see 1 graphics online bibliography \( acm siggraph \) 2 graphics software data archives \( ftp sites \) 3 search graphics information \? 4 search comp graphics faq \? 5 search graphics resources \( software data \) \? 6 search pictures utilities faq \? 1 graphics online bibliography \( acm siggraph \) searches archives bibliographic database covers graphics literature hundred years \( served gopher hole austria \) 2 graphics software data archives \( ftp sites \) links 70 sites around world software data computer graphics used companion searches found directory point toward software data various places 3 search graphics information \? 4 search comp graphics faq \? 5 search graphics resources \( software data \) \? 6 search pictures utilities faq \? searches contain wealth information computer graphics , data , software , techniques etc 3 search graphics information \? simply search information contained searches 4 , 5 , 6 4 search comp graphics faq \? lets search faq \( frequently asked questions \) comp graphics newsgroup compiled john grieggs jpl 5 search graphics resources \( software data \) \? lets search resource listing software data provided nick fotis national technical univ athens 6 search pictures utilities faq \? lets search faq \( frequently asked questions \) alt binaries newsgroup compiled jim howard cadence select 3 search graphics information \? search usgs 'll find information usgs data availability select 2 graphics software data archives \( ftp sites \) might find following interesting 12 cartographic data usgs data \( xerox \) 42 \( usgs \) 68 usgs weekly reports \( including maps gif \) 68 usgs earth science data directory \( actually database available data search terrain could prove quite useful \) one place look available anonymous ftp moment us geological survey maps er usgs gov \( 130 11 48 2 \) 've never heard gopher n't worry 's free net , write note 'd like information get started best luck , dan jacobson danj welchgate welch jhu edu johns hopkins university
dgp toronto edu \( robert \) subject advice sought turning font outlines polygons organization csri , university toronto distribution na lines 53 seeking alternate solutions turn postscript type 1 truetype font outline polygons subsequently scan converted 3d scanline renderer studying problem font conversion years never need implement system well , opportunity write font rendering software would like questions answered jump deep end main problem face use even odd non winding rules turn outlines single outline polygon \( renderer handle complex polygons need reduce polygons simple polygons \) example , letter two outlines 1 \) outside outline clockwise \( truetype font \) 2 \) inside outline counterclockwise one common solution used number rendering packages simply connect inner outline outer outline point two outlines closest equivalent polygon holes renderer make appropriate hole since interior polygon edges opposite direction outside edges want use simplistic system since 1 \) handle outline fonts properly \( simple matter connect outer outline inner outline fancy fonts \) 2 \) properly handle even odd non winding rules research years proper solution use decomposition algorithm scan convert outlines \( done postscript truetype font \) polygons easily properly rendered 3d scanline renderer question better solutions turning outlines \? fond solution since creates excess number polygons another question , know best algorithm create offset curves font outlines \? dozen papers subjects ca n't tell method best implement thanks pointers rob robert \( 416 \) 978 dynamic graphics project internet dgp toronto edu computer systems research institute uucp ! uunet ! dgp toronto edu ! university toronto bitnet dgp utoronto toronto , ontario m5s 1a4 , canada
yoo engr ucf edu \( yoo \) subject looking usa map organization engineering , university central florida , orlando lines 11 anyone know , line drawing usa map \? thanks much advance , yoo engr ucf edu
doug hparc0 aus hp com \( doug parsons \) subject 3d2 files \? organization hp australasian response centre \( melbourne \) x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 5 lines 12 chaining around anonymous ftp world looking 3d studio meshes interesting graphical stuff program , found files extension 3d2 3ds v2 01 n't know type file , \? course , perennial meshes , fli files , etc \? would thought someone would collected put somewhere , alas without knowledge mucho
jamie genesis mcs com \( james r groves \) subject ftp targa organization mcsnet contributor , chicago , il lines 5 distribution world nntp posting host localhost mcs com looking software run brand new targa 16 32 anyone knows sites useful stuff , want give , let know via mail thanks lot ! ! jamie mcs com
ernie woody apana org au \( ernie \) subject mgr naplps gui bbs organization woody public access linux melbourne lines 28 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 hi , looking methods use turn linux based bbs full color graphical bbs supports pc , mac , linux , amiga callers originally inspired naplps graphics standard \( summary hit group 2 weeks ago \) following software availability naplps supporting software find terminal programs commercial resonable shareware one runs msdos machines leaving mac amiga users buy full commercial software want try bbs \( know would n't \) next interesting possibility port mgr pc , mac , amiga know old version mac port bellcore com n't work system 7 ca n't seem find source anywhere see patch color version mgr linux \? know alpha version libs last year misplaced anyone group know mgr ported pc amiga \? ca n't seem send message mgr channel without bouncing anyone suggestions linux based gui bbs \? thanks
baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov \( ron baalke \) subject gaspra animation \( quicktime \) keywords gaspra , jpl organization jet propulsion laboratory lines 22 nntp posting host kelvin jpl nasa gov news software vax vms vnews 1 41 gaspra animation march 12 , 1993 gaspra animation available ames space archives quicktime format animation formed 11 images taken galileo shortly closest approach asteroid october 1991 animation available using anonymous ftp ftp ames arc nasa gov \( 128 102 18 3 \) user anonymous cd pub space animation files gaspra qt ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab \) 525 3684 telos 's kind fun pasadena , ca 91109 impossible walt disney
dr bobo hanse de \( boris \) subject vga scrolling \? organization european media art lab , hamburg lines 12 hi ! want soft scrolling vga , change intern registers little bit difficult explain , would suggest , take look programming ega vga adapter addison wesley find useful descriptions every available vga register boris dr bobo hanse de boris
inf tu dresden de \( thomas wolf \) subject q tiff description organization dept computer science , tu dresden , germany lines 13 distribution world nntp posting host inf tu dresden de keywords tiff sorry wasting time probably simple question , i'm computer graphic expert want read tiff files pascal program problem , files want read compressed form \( code 1 , e g huffman \) books articles found describe plain \( uncompressed \) format n't know get original tiff specification , furthermore n't access realy complete library anybody direct good book \( even better \) specification available via ftp \? thanks advance thomas wolf ps direct mail would prefered
mac utkvx bitnet \( richard j mcdougald \) subject illustrator autotrace poorly \? organization university tennessee lines 22 article 0010580b diablo uucp diablo uucp ! cboesel \( charles boesel \) writes yeah , corel draw wordperfect presentations pretty limited , since 's \( really \) thing decent raster vector conversion program , tracing technique simple stuff , like b w logos , etc pretty well , complicated stuff goes haywire suspect \( even though n't write code \) good bitmapped vector conversion program would probably big application softwares 're using even , come one n't written \? \( knowledge \) mean , even hijaak , one commercial industry standards file conversion , n't attempted yet mac mcdougald opinions expressed herein photography center necessarily \( actually , univ tenn knoxville almost certainly \) mac utkvx utk edu university tennessee mac utkvx bitnet \( 615 974 \) things like \( 615 974 \) fax 've ever
mor expo lcs mit edu \( ralph mor \) subject tom gaskins pexlib vs phigs programming manuals \( o'reilly \) organization x consortium , mit laboratory computer science lines 49 merlin neuro usc edu \( merlin \) writes could someone explain difference tom two books pexlib programming manual phigs programming manual would want buy one book vs book \? 80386 running sco unix \( x11r4 \) desktop , sun iv 360 lab , access variety systems \( alliant fx 2800 , cray mp \) network mostly , would like 3d modeling visualization rat , rabbit , monkey , human brain structure rather decide book want buy , need decide programming interface want use , buy appropriate book wrote article x resource discusses differences phigs pexlib \( appear issue 6 pretty soon \) 's brief summary phigs graphics api designed portable many devices implementations support x window system take advantage 3d extension x called pex pexlib slightly lower level api designed efficiently support pex extension x advantages using pexlib integrates xlib , xt , motif , etc better phigs provides immediate mode capabilities free policy pex supports phigs , currently extended support features found phigs \( like texture mapping , anti aliasing \) pexlib give access features advantages using phigs support multiple devices , x based ones support archiving , , hardcopy output phigs predefined input devices make input easier phigs handle exposure events resizing phigs help colormap selection creation 're working strictly x n't care things like archiving , would go pexlib either way , find api 's lot common ralph mor mit x consortium
tmc spartan ac brocku ca \( tim ciceran \) subject mpeg location organization brock university , st catharines ontario x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 21 alan jackson \( ajackson cch coventry ac uk \) wrote anyone tell find mpeg viewer \( either dos windows \) thanks advance alan jackson mail ajackson cch cov ac uk liverpool football club simply best 'll never walk alone find windows mpeg viewer wuarchive wustl edu mirrors msdos windows3 directory tmc \( tmc spartan ac brocku ca \)
tmc spartan ac brocku ca \( tim ciceran \) subject newsgroup split organization brock university , st catharines ontario x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 19 chris herringshaw \( tdawson engin umich edu \) wrote concerning proposed newsgroup split , personally favor learn awful lot aspects graphics reading group , code hardware algorithms think making 5 different groups wate , result posts week per group kind like convenience one big forum discussing aspects graphics anyone else feel way \? curious daemon said tmc \( tmc spartan ac brocku ca \)
johnm lonestar org \( john munsch \) subject rumours 3do \? \? \? organization etc organization lines 16 article viamar uucp rutgers ! viamar ! kmembry writes read issue 2 wired magazine long article hype 3do 've noticed every article talks designers great , never show pictures output \( least pictures one understand \) magazine published pictures months ago computer chronicles \( program syndicated public tv stations around nation \) spent several minutes shown ces impressive real time john munsch p n't take mean believe system going take world something clearly lot horsepower vis , cd , sega cd , turbo duo crowd
joshuaf yang earlham edu subject tiff anything \? ! organization earlham college , richmond , indiana lines 15 article 1993apr23 spartan ac brocku ca , tmc spartan ac brocku ca \( tim ciceran \) writes program called graphic workshop ftp wuarchive file msdos graphics directory called grfwk61t zip program od everthing need tmc \( tmc spartan ac brocku ca \) thanks ! work , needed thanks joshuaf
noble possum den mmc com \( joe noble \) subject newsgroup split organization martin marietta astronautics , denver lines 26 nntp posting host pogo den mmc com tmc spartan ac brocku ca \( tim ciceran \) writes chris herringshaw \( tdawson engin umich edu \) wrote concerning proposed newsgroup split , personally favor learn awful lot aspects graphics reading group , code hardware algorithms think making 5 different groups wate , result posts week per group kind like convenience one big forum discussing aspects graphics anyone else feel way \? curious daemon said ditto tmc \( tmc spartan ac brocku ca \) joe noble pogo den mmc com beauty dying smile truly stupid
vaxa hofstra edu subject loosing color lines 9 hi guys scanning color image looks fine screen converted pcx , bmp , gif files get ms windows colors got much lighter example became white ideas \? thanks dan vaxc hofstra edu
vaxa hofstra edu subject color problem lines 8 scanning color image looks fine screen converted pcx , bmp , gif files get ms windows colors got much lighter example became white ideas \? thanks dan vaxc hofstra edu
cunixb cc columbia edu \( robert \) subject illustrator autotrace poorly \? nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply cunixb cc columbia edu \( robert \) organization columbia university lines 3 shareware graphics program called filter makes picture look like hand drawing picture could probably converted vector format much easier lines \( corel trace , etc \)
lonestar utsa edu \( jerry \) subject pov ray problem please help nntp posting host lonestar utsa edu organization university texas san antonio lines 12 hello , 've recently povray draw 10 sample files problem accidently erased command povray def made image file files dump format fix files trace \? fix mean , turn thanks advance jerry jerry internet lonestar utsa edu compuserve ,
ianf random se \( ian feldman , internet worm tm \) lynx unm edu random se content type plain charset ascii 827 organization random design opinions , cheaply lines 138 summary formatted two 69 line pages \( use font ! \) subject fi fiction set comp science programming environs fi set c sci programming environs list ian feldman written book title , pp v2 7 isbn john shockwave rider ray 5 0 345 5 cracking net free information common good pat \( absolute must bruce sterling \) pat bantam 5 \( virtual reality \) 0 553 9 scott card lost boys harper \( programmer family encounters strange events north carolina \) frame grabber st martin 's , 17 0 312 1 computer illiterate tracks murderer via bbs interrupt \( techno mystery set silicon valley \) michael tin men fontana , \( inspired lunacy print \) david one release 2 0 0 553 6 william gibson count zero \( computers gods , part \) william gibson lisa overdrive \( virtual reality \) 0 553 7 william gibson burning chrome \( cyberpunk short stories \) 0 441 8 william gibson \( industrial espionage \) 0 441 5 \( author guilty inventing cyberpunk \) james hogan genesis machine del 3 0 345 0 james hogan thrice upon time \( time travel information \) james hogan two faces tomorrow del 0 345 9 ultimate test ai os letting run spacelab amok lem master 's voice \( failed attempt decode et message \) tom maddox halo \( remarkable sf robots artificial intelligence \) george rr martin tor 0 8 r tea black dragon \( mystery around computer fraud situation computing bits ring true \) n mcintyre worker analog \( blue collar vr \) marge body glass , \( data piracy \) review finger books body glass danny cs su oz au david hard drive 5 , 1 884 x \( programmer dies accident , leaves documentation behind software firms fight market share virii right pages macworld steve brock \) richard powers gold bug variations morrow '91 , \( famous molecular scientist \? \? love , life dept \) paul human error \( computer brain damaged kid \) thomas j ryan p1 0 671 2 \( runaway ai experiment takes mainframes , havoc \) bruce sterling difference engine \( w gibson \) finger books difference engine danny cs su oz au cliff 's egg \( non fiction reads like one \) review ftp garbo uwasa fi mac tidbits 1991 18 mar 91 tom thomas \( smart computers \) vernor vinge across realtime baen books several titles vernor vinge grimm 's world baen books soon available vernor vinge baen books millennium vernor vinge threats promises baen books books uk vernor vinge true names dangers baen 0 671 6 vernor vinge fire upon deep tor books , , 6 0 1528 5 \( essentially future internet \) john press enter \( short story , gruesome , good \) ed silent witness \( computer crime story explain computer os girlfriend \) herbert w franke das zentrum der \( center galaxy \) herbert w franke \( 'the last mean frank herbert ! \) computer fuer 1001 verlag , switzerland minute 33 \( last 4 german last 2 set commercial computing world early 70 's \) current version list via fi danny cs su oz compiled mail additions comments updates ianf random se statistical breakdown fiction nominations title author books nominated 5 p 1 ryan vinge 10 6 titles 5 gibson gibson 10 5 titles 4 true names dangers vinge ryan 5 4 shockwave rider 4 shockwave rider 4 h r l e one 4 h r l e 4 fire upon deep vinge hogan 3 3 titles 2 threats promises vinge lem 3 fiasco solar total nominations 85 authors 27 female 5 \? 6 sent 42 readers contributions fifo teal csn org \( steve brock \) john johnl cs indiana edu navy mil \( sean \) kevin silver ucs indiana edu paul christopher workman andrew cmu edu com \( kelly sorensen \) whughes lonestar utsa edu \( william w hughes \) north tj cc curtin edu au \( tim north \) fnal fnal gov \( \) stephen hart cs mun ca duane f marble magnus acs ohio state edu matthias iis ee ethz ch wolfram wagner ww sb mpg de webb hks com \( peter webb \) ssd comm mot com \( thomas \) nyu edu \( beth \) dp world std com \( jeff \) cyclops eece unm edu \( roger \) hartman com \( richard hartman \) vernor vinge vinge saturn sdsu edu paul lebeau cix compulink co uk lawrence rounds beach cis ufl edu cornell edu \( david \) vaxa strath ac uk \( learning courtesy \) rowan cache crc ricoh com suite sw oz au sw oz au \( peter , , , \) cs toronto edu russell ersys edmonton ab ca \( russell schulz \) rent com \( andreas meyer \) jon cs washington edu \( jon \) eugene nas nasa gov \( eugene n miya \) vaxb strathclyde ac uk fnal gov \( marc \) roger seg npl co uk com \( kevin system administrator \) cs wisc edu \( \) mcintyre mcintyre cpac washington edu bruce sterling bruces well sf ca us scott thomas midway uchicago edu thomas co uk paul andrews 161 compuserve com mucho thanks ! ian internet worm tm feldman ianf random se
technet sg \( tang chang thai \) subject interviews graphics package nntp posting host solomon technet sg x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 9 rene dutch student \( cern ch \) wrote i'm trying c graphics package interviews besides man pages classes , n't got documentation anything else around \? furthermore , anyone send \( small ! \) example program shows use classes together \? would might want try comp windows interviews
jbulf balsa berkeley edu \( jeff bulf \) subject fractal compression keywords fractal reply jbulf balsa berkeley edu \( jeff bulf \) organization kubota pacific computers inc lines 12 article inu530n cc monash edu au , inu530n cc monash edu au \( \) writes hi anybody give book reference title give start fractal image compression technique helps appreciated thanx better worse , source michael article science fractal images \( et al \) fair intro 's book fractals everywhere thorough treatment book covers iterated function systems general , application image compression clear text dr memory jbulf kpc com
ajs8 kimbark uchicago edu \( adam jeremy \) subject graphics needed reply ajs8 midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 2 i'm looking graphics \( clipart , bmp , gif \) anything relating \( know 's weird request \) anything , contact lenses , eyes would greatly appreciated thanks
r0506048 \( chun hung lin \) subject jpeg file format \? nntp posting host csie ntu edu tw reply r0506048 csie ntu edu tw organization communication multimedia lab , ntu , taiwan x newsreader tin 1 1 pl3 lines 20 microsoft com \( peter \) writes could find description jpg file format \? specifically need know jpg file find height width image , perhaps even number colors used suggestions \? peter try ftp uu net , graphics jpeg chun hung lin \( l \) r0506048 csie ntu edu tw communication multimedia lab dept comp sci info eng national taiwan university , taipei , taiwan , r c
stusoft hardy u washington edu \( stuart denman \) subject easy translate jpeg code article shelley organization university washington lines 7 nntp posting host hardy u washington edu anyone jpeg decompression code pretty much language read understand \? trouble understanding jpeg group 's code got ftp site one send good code , appreciate lot ! thanks ! stuart denman stusoft u washington edu
stusoft hardy u washington edu \( stuart denman \) subject 3d2 files \? article shelley organization university washington lines 16 nntp posting host hardy u washington edu doug hparc0 aus hp com \( doug parsons \) writes chaining around anonymous ftp world looking 3d studio meshes interesting graphical stuff program , found files extension 3d2 3ds v2 01 n't know type file , \? 3d object files cad 3d 2 0 , program written tom hudson atari st computers n't know much except stored points first , surfaces next , made listing 3 point numbers make triangle surface 's header describes coloring , lighting , etc n't know much , hope helps stuart denman stusoft u washington edu
eric vitiello tfd coplex com \( eric vitiello \) subject gif bmp reply eric vitiello tfd coplex com \( eric vitiello \) organization ky pc user 's group louisville , ky 502 423 lines 15 saz hook corp mot com sz anybody know program converts gif files bmp files sz , ftp \? help would greatly sz appreciated sure great shareware program graphic workshop \( newest version 6 1 \) although n't know ftp also converts 15 formats , many things r c v r deluxe 386 1 25 address eric vitiello tfd coplex com
weilej rpi edu \( jason lee \) subject need viewer gl files nntp posting host rpi edu reply weilej rpi edu organization rensselaer polytechnic institute , troy , ny lines 17 article dux dundee ac uk , cardhu mcs dundee ac uk \( dominik \) writes hi , subject says pd viewer gl files \( x \) \? thanks dominik dominik , tried \? 's several ftp sites \( sure , archie find , i'm sure \) works ok lacks interface jason weilej rpi edu
rych festival ed ac uk \( r hawkes \) subject 3ds texture rules go \? lines 21 hi , 've noticed save model \( mapping planes positioned carefully \) 3ds file reload restarting 3ds , given default position orientation save prj file positions orientation preserved anyone know information stored 3ds file \? nothing explicitly said manual saving texture rules prj file 'd like able read texture rule information , anyone format prj file \? file format available somewhere \? rych hawkes email rych festival ed ac uk virtual environment laboratory dept psychology tel 44 31 650 3426 univ edinburgh fax 44 31 667
cs okstate edu \( chong \) subject kermit available windows 3 0 3 1 \? organization oklahoma state university lines 7 article vicuna ocunix ca , steve frampton frampton vicuna ocunix ca wondering , kermit package \( actual package , yes ! usual ftp sites chong
subject win storm pc srini shannon tisl ukans edu \( srini seetharam \) reply srini shannon tisl ukans edu \( srini seetharam \) distribution world organization elec comp eng , univ kansas nntp posting host tisl ukans edu originator srini lines 10 anyone info video sound card sigma designs called win storm pc also another card called legend info would appreciated , performance , pricing availability thanks srini
subject win31 doublespace vax1 umkc edu organization university missouri kansas city nntp posting host vax1 umkc edu lines 33 article wal hp com , chrisa hpwarr hp com \( chris \) writes doublespace , although trust hard disks , sounds great floppies mount disk something deal problem arises windows way mount windows part upgrades soon available vendors \? chris ca n't see would trust safer previous compression programs integrates kernal makes nearly impossible delete
phoenix princeton edu ! carlosn \( carlos g niederstrasser \) subject ms mouse driver 8 2 originator news nimaster nntp posting host princeton edu organization princeton university lines 15 anyone documentation ms mouse driver 8 2 \? got got windows 3 1 , windows manual come documentation particular need know turn , speed outside windows greater sensitivity needed play various games , esp x wing \) carlos g niederstrasser two things infinite , princeton planetary society universe human stupidity , i'm sure former einstein carlosn phoenix princeton edu space phoenix princeton edu ad astra per
iscsvax uni edu subject win 3 0 icon help please ! organization university northern iowa lines 10 win 3 0 downloaded several icons bmp 's ca n't figure change wallpaper use icons help would appreciated thanx , ps please e mail
subject smartdrv exe causing bad sectors hd \? netlink cts com \( john driver \) organization netlink online communications , san diego ca lines 47 something unusual happen first background system mitsubishi 63 meg hard drive , running smartdrv \( version comes windows 3 1 \) rarely use windows use program called disk technician gold v1 14 diagnostics live time hard drive works device driver detect whenever one read necessary file , anything else wrong , minor problems fully checked upon rebooting hard drive notorious bad sectors usually end 8 new bad sectors week 's happened ran program , dtg broke emergency warning recommended reboot gave message twice program fully loaded exited program dtg went bootup process , examining new errors etc , screen popped said something sectors brief period time went back program , executed , exact error detected rebooted tried , error happened , removed dtg memory , went program see could detect anything wrong sure enough number read attempts rebooted reloaded dtg , removed cache executed program read errors , either audible detected dtg quit program , loaded cache , ran program errors detected ok , errors , dtg detects n't fix , cache loaded cache loaded errors , see cache interfering files , went gold tagged files , searched random string \( words , wanted program completely read every file hard drive \) got c 's dtg detected least six errors recommended reboot anybody , idea smartdrv causing hard drive \? oh , exactly two per file , 1 every 100 files affected originally posted message disk technician corp 's system , figured someone netland may know enough smartdrv help internet netlink cts com \( john driver \) uucp ! ! netlink ! netlink online communications public access san diego , ca \( 619 \) 453 1115
kmembry viamar uucp \( kirk membry \) subject ms windows access blind \? reply rutgers ! viamar ! kmembry organization private system lines 18 1993apr22 seas gwu edu louray seas gwu edu \( michael panayiotakis \) writes micro oft display , computers running windows , win apps blind , think n't pay much attention , seems particular program designed blind people important trying interface windows way blind people use someone made voice recognition multimedia \( sound \) oriented program , would probably effective n't know original purpose interfacing windows person posted question though kirk membry age age industry rutgers ! viamar ! kmembry alexander rodchenko
organization university central florida computer services mark woodruff cda90038 ucf1vm bitnet subject i'm using dos 6 anymore lines 18 've running dos 6 month generally impressed improvements multiple boot configurations great , new commands nice , doublespace worked fine \( twice slow large data transfers , twice fast small smartdrv \) morning 4 working research paper , reboot hung dos program \( disk \) within windows 3 1 machine finished rebooting , found windows directory two thirds directories irreversibly corrupted cannot afford problems like i'm returning dos 5 mark p 've also noticed bad sector errors doublespace none exist
subject help changing startup logo c doelle p26 f3333 n106 z1 fidonet org \( c doelle \) lines 23 hello brad ! monday april 26 1993 17 24 , brad smalling wrote \( crosspost 1 \) bs vga card correct files ca n't copy bs back expect work create new win com file try bs command \( worry directories file bs since n't know setup \) bs copy b win cnf vgalogo lgo vgalogo rle win com bs \( grabbed supercharging windows judd robbins great book \) bs also put logo windows startup bs screen rle file specially compressed bmp file brad , procedure used compress bmp file \? would love use bmp files created logo screen thanks chris origin chris doelle f3333 n106 z1 fidonet org \( 1 106 3333 26 \)
farley access digex com \( charles u farley \) subject get ati card video drivers fonts \? organization express access online communications usa 800 546 2010 lines 8 distribution usa nntp posting host access digex net summary get ati card video drivers fonts \? keywords ati , windows anyone know ftp somehow else acquire latest video drivers fonts ati svga adapter \? floppy windows 3 0 anyone know ati still business \? thanks ! farley access digex com charles u farley average iq calgary board ed employee 65
cm demon co uk \( colin manning \) subject truetype oem font line drawing characters etc wanted distribution world organization systems reply cm demon co uk x newsreader simple news 1 90 \( ka9q dis 1 21 \) lines 13 title says i'm need truetype oem character set font ie one contains line drawing characters pc character set similar get running text mode application anyone could point thing , 'd grateful oem fonts included windows truetype regards , colin manning
acs ucalgary ca \( david bryan \) subject help changing startup logo distribution usa nntp posting host acs ucalgary ca organization university calgary , alberta lines 29 article access digex net farley access digex com \( charles u farley \) writes know probably faq , installed w ati graphics card , bashed windows logo files start windows , 3 0 logo instead 3 1 logo thought files controlled windows system vgalogo rle windows system vgalogo lgo restored files , n't change logo anyone know correct files \? believe correct files think 'll go back setup choose change video adapter whatever called trick choose adaptor currently setup actually changes file win com whenever go change video hardware selection incorporates contents vgalogo rle win com trick also used change startup logo whatever want sig alert acs ucalgary ca end sig alert
lipman oasys dt navy mil \( robert lipman \) subject call presentations navy vr seminar expires 30 apr 93 04 00 00 gmt reply lipman oasys dt navy mil \( robert lipman \) distribution usa organization carderock division , nswc , bethesda , md lines 66 call presentations navy scientific visualization virtual reality seminar tuesday , june 22 , 1993 carderock division , naval surface warfare center \( formerly david taylor research center \) bethesda , maryland sponsor ness \( navy engineering software system \) sponsoring one day navy scientific visualization virtual reality seminar purpose seminar present exchange information navy related scientific visualization virtual reality programs , research , developments , applications presentations presentations solicited aspects navy related scientific visualization virtual reality current work , works progress , proposed work navy organizations considered four types presentations available 1 regular presentation 20 30 minutes length 2 short presentation 10 minutes length 3 video presentation stand alone videotape \( author need attend seminar \) 4 scientific visualization virtual reality demonstration \( \) accepted presentations published proceedings , however , materials reproduced seminar attendees abstracts authors submit one page abstract videotape robert lipman naval surface warfare center , carderock division code 2042 bethesda , maryland 20084 5000 voice \( 301 \) 227 3618 fax \( 301 \) 227 5753 e mail lipman oasys dt navy mil authors include type presentation , affiliations , addresses , telephone fax numbers , addresses multi author papers designate one point contact deadlines submission deadline april 30 , 1993 notification acceptance sent may 14 , 1993 materials reproduction must received june 1 , 1993 information , contact robert lipman address please distribute widely possible , thanks robert lipman internet lipman oasys dt navy mil david taylor model basin lip ocean dt navy mil computational signatures \( 301 \) 227 3618 structures group , code 2042 \( 301 \) 227 5753 bethesda , maryland 20084 5000 stockings long legs sixth sick 's sixth sheep 's sick
augustana ab ca subject document rtf organization augustana university college , , alberta lines 10 article 1993mar30 kaist ac kr , eve kaist ac kr \( yu \) writes anybody document rtf file know get \? thanks advance \) got one microsoft tech support sterling g , augustana ab ca uucp augustana university college , , alberta , canada \( 403 \) 679 1100
subject winbench 3 11 help graphics comparison \? ! \? grv grace cri nz distribution world organization industrial research ltd , new zealand nntp posting host grace cri nz lines 25 article news udel edu swyatt bach udel edu \( stephen l wyatt \) writes question winbench \( pc labs thing \) 3 11 386 33 ahead b \( 512k \) card got results windows vga driver 2 44 million ahead b \( 640 480 256 \) driver 455 , 000 winmarks windows svga \( 800 600 16 \) driver 1 68 million winmarks thinking upgrading diamond 24x card read 8 million winmark obviously much much greater 256 color mode \? good card street price 170 386dx 33mhz 4mb ram winbench 2 5 24x v2 02 16 7m 1 , 668 , 274 v2 03 16 7m 1 , 668 , 985 v2 03 16 4 , 602 , 428 v2 03 256 7 , 635 , 278 richard maystonr grace cri nz
uxa cso uiuc edu \( richard \) subject dos6 defragment \? \? article news organization university illinois urbana lines 12 geoffrey writes yes , fastest defrag 've ever watched 170mb hard disk 20 minutes found ms defrag looks much like norton speedisk strip version later \? norton speedisk backup , wondering need install ms backup \? richard
downs helios nevada edu \( lamont downs \) subject windows gripe article helios downs 189 organization unlv lines 19 nntp posting host cat lv lib nevada edu 's one thing windows really 20mb ram installed system use 5mb \( 2 5mb windows \) disk cache , 4mb permanent swap file never fill memory , still problems sometimes run gdi resources gives \? think windows could manage resources little better using windows 3 0 3 1 \? 're still 3 0 , 3 1 twice much memory runs much less frequently 3 1 , might use one resource monitors \( one comes windows 3 1 resource kit one many shareware ones available \) see programs hogging resources \( every icon , internal graphics brush , etc every program running uses certain amount limited memory area also , n't give back 're finished \) lamont downs downs nevada edu
al col hp com \( al devilbiss \) subject winbench article hp col distribution world organization hp colorado springs division lines 18 nntp posting host col hp com jorge erex east sun com \( jorge lach sun bos hardware \) writes ftp site carries winbench results different graphics cards \? excel \( \) format \? latest version winbench differ \? source available , anybody try port x window , least way make comparisons possible \? ftp cica indiana edu pub pc win3 misc winadv zip writeup steve gibson infoworld winbench 3 11 number benchmark results nine isa four vlb video cards current upload likely card 're currently giving serious consideration format latest version winbench know ver 3 11 believe try maintain rating scale versions , new versions released defeat lastest coding tricks put driver programmers beat benchmarks n't know last one al devilbiss al col hp com
kato lahabra chevron com \( w r volz \) subject norton desktop windows 2 2 organization chevron oil field research company lines 18 article 1993apr2 exu ericsson se , ebu ericsson se \( james woo \) writes hi , wonder anyone chance try norton desktop windows version 2 2 yet understand upgrade cost 2 0 2 2 20 00 idea new version got offer upgrade weekend 's 19 8 50 shipping handling h seem way steep couple disks sounds like ripoff city purchased vendors \? bill volz chevron petroleum technology co earth model interpretation analysis division p box 446 , la habra , ca phone \( 310 \) 694 fax \( 310 \) 694
nosubdomain nodomain \( lee \) subject dos6 defragment \? \? article cs 1993apr6 organization brown university center fluid mechanics lines 17 article news cso uiuc edu , uxa cso uiuc edu \( richard \) writes geoffrey writes yes , fastest defrag 've ever watched 170mb hard disk 20 minutes found ms defrag looks much like norton speedisk strip version later \? norton speedisk backup , wondering need install ms backup \? richard yes , come norton norton utility , n't bother
netcom com \( chris waters \) subject pc geos , windows , os 2 , unix x11 organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 58 sehari iastate edu sehari iastate edu \( babak sehari \) writes limited pc geos , came following comparison pc geos windows os 2 unix x11 2 run win programs nop yap yap nop novell least windows apps running 5 run unix nop nop yap heard try mks mks others , esp emx note mks toolkit \( dos windows os 2 \) gives good suite standard unix utilities similar systems vendors well emx system os 2 gives standard unix system calls unix programs os 2 quite thing actually running unix programs directly either case , emx makes os 2 almost compatible unix systems many unix systems , best , emx free \) similar system \( go32 \) dos , n't work windows , far know 7 price 120 70 120 free good one costs 400 700 avaliable ext card add cost dos geos windows , neither standalone os point neither os 2 unix requires dos btw , two best 've seen pee cee \( 300 personal edition \) linux \( free \) n't agree good one costs 400 700 \) , really want check various options available , also look desqview desqview x cheers chris waters insane n't judy 's bedroom , netcom com need disclaimers inventing situations byrne
holland ug cs dal ca \( shane holland \) subject comments windows \? \? \? \? organization math , stats cs , dalhousie university , halifax , ns , canada lines 15 nntp posting host ug cs dal ca looking comments \( pro \? \? \) windows thinking buying product even seen yet thank shane holland holland ug cs dal ca holland ug cs dal ca ac dal ca
neff123 garnet berkeley edu \( stephen kearney \) subject microsoft windows really article agate organization university california , berkeley lines 9 nntp posting host garnet berkeley edu icons program manager aliases explicit enough \? \? apparently many people complain confusion results filemanager progman split 's basic flaw besides , control panel icons \? little files \?
neff123 garnet berkeley edu \( stephen kearney \) subject microsoft windows really operating system \? article agate organization university california , berkeley lines 19 nntp posting host garnet berkeley edu well , may think , wrong ah joys networking hope forgot n't like file manager , use ! n't use ndw like modular nature windoze like things modular , think would love system 7 instead adding line autoexec bat , drop icon extensions folder one ignorance sold one evil fruit empire , one forbidden learn one 's file system level gui i'm still working one
mach1 wlu ca \( dwayne moore u \) subject sound blaster ver 1 5 windows 3 1 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 organization wilfrid laurier university lines 35 article crossposted comp speech , comp sys ibm pc , comp os linux author mario posted mon , 5 apr 1993 21 44 24 gmt sound blaster ver 1 5 try install driver ver 1 5 \( driver comes window 3 1 \) tell upgrade card first ! ! ! \? \? \? \? , found new drivers creative labs problems installing removing 386 \( old version come windows \) installing creative sound blaster midi synthesizer try install creative sound blaster 1 5 wave menu add updated driver double click driver , error driver error cannot load creative sound blaster 1 5 wave midi driver driver file may missing try installing driver , contact system administrator yes , yes , yes , read readme 1st try every thing ! somebody help \? \? mario internet ca
tedm tsoft net \( ted matsumura \) subject windows gripe organization tsoft bbs public access unix , 1 415 969 8238 lines 37 article bigboote wpi edu bigal wpi wpi edu \( nathan charles crowell \) writes hi , 's one thing windows really 20mb ram installed system use 5mb \( 2 5mb windows \) disk cache , 4mb permanent swap file never fill memory , still problems sometimes run gdi resources gives \? think windows could manage resources little better anyone input conserve resources avoid problem \? nate nathan c crowell , dept mechanical engineering worcester polytechnic institute e mail bigal wpi wpi edu costing net hundreds thousands dollars nathan , win31 fixed limit 64k gdi memory , regardless physical ram installed , twice , nearly robust enough many developers power users using amish launch shell , reduce gdi memory usage much 15 progman , ndw 2 , dashboard , graphical type icon based shells also , , full hot key global support offered , something shells time ted matsumura , president amish software , inc wq
microsoft com \( david glenn \) subject atm truetype choose \? article 1993apr06 distribution usa organization microsoft corp lines 54 article csn org rjn teal csn org wrote keele ac uk \( c \) writes 've bought pc came bundle lotus stuff , including adobe type manager version 1 15 newcomer windows , i'm confused using , atm truetype going stay atm , sure upgrade 2 5 , replaces 2 0 knows old 1 15 2 5 fast tt , disable small screen fonts , atm better screen rendering smaller point sizes true ! type 1 tt fonts excellent quality poor quality size depends font 's maker complexity glyphs related size resolution viewed probably reason opinion experience tt inferior tt fonts market today converted type 1 outlines tt either font vendor end users using instead tt fonts hand hinted take advantage tt hinting language best converted tt fonts par type 1 font orgin truetype much richer robust hinting language type 1 \( hinting instance , tt type 1 cannot \) check windows 3 1 core fonts \( times , , courier , symbol , \) 'll see done tt fonts hand hinted converted microsoft tt font pack 2 fonts hinted well use tt atm fonts time , like atm \( type 1 \) fonts tend higher quality complete terms foreign characters , true characters tt type 1 font depend maker someone converts type 1 font tt 'll get characters font orgin tt allows much flexibility area well thousands glyphs tt font file \( mac ps windows char set \) use characters appropriate particular platform running font instance , 2 tt fonts mac windows char set metrics fonts font brought mac user access full mac char set regards , 1001 east harmony road bob niland suite 503 internet rjn csn org fort collins co 80525 compuserve , \( 303 \) 223 hope clears confusion feel free contact anyone would like info regards , dave glenn program manager , microsoft tt font stuff microsoft com compuserve , 1067
ardie ux1 cso uiuc edu \( ardie mack \) subject dos6 defragment \? \? article ux1 ardie 272 organization department plant pathology lines 30 article 1993apr6 cs brown edu nosubdomain nodomain \( lee \) writes nosubdomain nodomain \( lee \) subject dos6 defragment \? \? date tue , 6 apr 1993 04 02 54 gmt article news cso uiuc edu , uxa cso uiuc edu \( richard \) writes geoffrey writes yes , fastest defrag 've ever watched 170mb hard disk 20 minutes found ms defrag looks much like norton speedisk strip version later \? norton speedisk backup , wondering need install ms backup \? richard yes , come norton norton utility , n't bother n't bother fastback offer options available stripped ms version \( cps ! \) examples proprietary format \( save space \) , probably direct dma access , tape drive ! need ms defrag use doublespace work compressed volume
rcampbel weejordy physics mun ca \( roderick campbell \) subject pc geos , windows , os 2 , unix x11 reply rcampbel weejordy physics mun ca organization dept physics , memorial university lines 61 article sehari iastate edu , sehari iastate edu \( babak sehari \) writes limited pc geos , came following comparison pc geos windows os 2 unix x11 1 run dos programs yes yes yes yes \( needed add \) lines deleted 7 price 120 70 120 free good one costs 400 700 avaliable ext card 8 c compiler n't think yap yap yap 9 c yap yap yap 10 fortran yap yap yap 11 \? yap yap yap 12 min run dos 2m 10mb hard \? 386 guys gals add list , throw many tubes highest regards , babak sehari list appears imply , ms windows cost listed 70 , comes c compiler , c fortran , course expensive add ons drive price way beyond 70 \( n't know applies os 2 \) far unix concerned free unix , linux , cc , c , fortran \( f2c \) , xwindows many features besides , large number utilities optionally added also free 386bsd believe unix 's quite robust check comp os linux n't want throw many tubes , 've got break list little roderick campbell department physics memorial university newfoundland st john 's , nf , canada internet rcampbel weejordy physics mun ca
encore com \( mike palmer \) subject windows ramdrive \? \? \? help organization encore computer corporation nntp posting host sysgem1 encore com lines 31 f ccsvax sfasu edu writes stuff del 'd bandwidth 's sake \? sigh n't memory using ramdrive windows waste memory windows access upto 16mb ram better memory n't work , paths stored inside group pif ini files sudden things went drive c drive e ! however , wanted copy application ramdrive setup , work normally , previously stated , hurt things unless 've got ram using whats 16 ramdrive personally 20mb 's ram run 4mb ramdrive great deal success however , looking speed windows , three things 've noted work best 1 \) graphics accellerator card 2 \) co processor \( even emulator helps ! \) 3 \) disk cache besides smartdrive \( 've tried several , lightning windows norton cache give major headaches well \) think purpose original poster trying serve avoid significant amount disk access windows startup 's like 's trying 's bit wearing damn drive estimate 's reading mb programs data , performance drive gives , sounds like scattered drive \( drive however compressed \) takes much fuss perhaps ms would take trouble optimize startup process , less people would wanting find solution
cgd eden cs berkeley edu \( chris g \) subject pc geos , windows , os 2 , unix x11 organization kernel hackers 'r' us lines 22 nntp posting host eden cs berkeley edu reply rcampbel weejordy physics mun ca 's message tue , 6 apr 1993 11 41 36 gmt article news ucs mun ca rcampbel weejordy physics mun ca \( roderick campbell \) writes free unix , linux , cc , c , fortran \( f2c \) , xwindows many features besides , large number utilities optionally added also free 386bsd believe unix 's quite robust check comp os linux dunno linux , 386bsd , n't forget networking \( well tested , \) , nfs , fast , incredibly stable filesystem , list goes 8 \) us 386bsd folk , look comp os 386bsd chris moderator comp os 386bsd announce , anti politician , sometime evangelist chris g cgd cs berkeley edu 386bsd depth first search whenever go fix something find 3 things actually broken adam glass
adriene nazaretian qm yale edu \( adriene nazaretian \) subject win nt nntp posting host cis yale edu organization yale university new , connecticut usa lines 22 article gazette bcm tmc edu , raymaker bcm tmc edu \( mark raymaker \) says anyone aware existing ipx netx software attachment netware future release \? please respond internet mail raymaker bcm tmc edu thanks believe beta version service available via ftp ftp cica indiana edu pub pc win3 nt called something like zip index ascii file , lists programs directory unfortunately beta also disable netbeui tcp ip primary nic , really want run , get extra nic bind otherwise wait next release , like adriene
freenet carleton ca \( david clarke \) subject dos 6 emm386 windows 3 1 prob reply freenet carleton ca \( david clarke \) organization national capital freenet lines 22 anyone else experienced problems windows hanging installation dos 6 \? narrowed problem emm386 remove \( disable \) emm386 , windows ok emm386 active , noems , windows hangs use auto emm386 , system hangs bootup dave david clarke well deep wish well freenet carleton ca david clarke ubc ca sfu ca
tamuts tamu edu \( diego \) subject windows shareware monthly \( information \) article tamsun organization texas university , college station lines 100 nntp posting host tamuts tamu edu windows shareware monthly \( wsm \) line forum information newest best windows 3 x nt shareware freeware software wsm compilation submissions shareware freeware authors single windows hlp \( help system \) file types software may submitted entry wsm utilities , applications , games , programming tools , etc wsm benefits windows shareware freeware authors allowing publicize software releases , inform users updated versions , increase installed base users searching specific windows software benefit complete list available software available fingertips complete feature lists , current prices , relevant information windows software authors may submit entries windows shareware monthly following manner 1 compose short summary function software include special features unique product set apart programs sure include specific details current release version , software available , much registration fee costs , much disk space required , special requirements \( e g sound card , dll , etc \) , author may contacted , etc text highly , summary may long necessary , however , best keep short good single 12 point text 640x480 resolution order forms addendum may included desired submissions plain text \( ascii \) format formatting exactly submitted simply cut paste text files help authoring system require special formatting conventions text italics , larger font size , indicate clearly within text file best results , use windows notepad create txt file 2 include 100k windows format bmp \( bitmap \) screen shots display workings special features program special cases \( rendering applications example \) require 256 color bitmaps may submit 250k bmp files observe 100k limit use 16 color format maximum software used create wsm hlp file \( stefan olson 's help writer 's assistant windows \) , please save bitmaps windows paintbrush wingif 3 include 16 color bmp program 's icon \( ico file \) many programs available convert ico bmp format , windows paintbrush may used bmp embedded summary text 4 double check spelling errors , formatting corrections , etc 5 compress txt file , bmp program icon , additional single file using pkzip \( version \) 6 submit entry , e mailing tamuts tamu edu submitting via internet compuserve submitting via america online , send brief message indicating submission , append zip file , e mail 7 changes required , new version released , complete procedures send submissions tamuts address , comments , suggestions , criticisms , rigel tamu edu entries received deadline included subsequent edition wsm editor held responsible errors , reserve right make changes entries wsm limited shareware freeware software special area devoted commercially available windows 3 x nt software commercial software authors follow steps , exception limitations size txt file may large required \( large practical transmission phone lines \) charge publishing either shareware freeware commercial product entries advertisements computer hardware , software , bulletin boards , etc may submitted well , procedures apply , exception size limitations charge advertising space first ten advertisements submitted month included subsequent submissions included due size constraints wsm currently looking persons willing devote time author columns within wsm c c programing section , visual basic section , two windows specific opinion advice columns envisioned work voluntary basis wish aid wsm author monthly column one topics , please send us mail tamuts tamu edu america online first edition wsm distributed may 1st via america online , compuserve , internet deadline submissions april 28th first edition filename wsm 1 zip , subsequent monthly release continuing series naming convention \( wsm 2 zip , etc \) edition released first month , deadline submission least three days release
kauai ai mit edu \( k p horn \) subject atm truetype choose \? organization mit artificial intelligence lab lines 50 distribution usa nntp posting host kauai ai mit edu reply microsoft com 's message 06 apr 93 02 37 30 gmt article 1993apr06 microsoft com microsoft com \( david glenn \) writes , true characters tt type 1 font depend maker someone converts type 1 font tt 'll get characters font orgin tt allows much flexibility area well thousands glyphs tt font file \( mac ps windows char set \) use characters appropriate particular platform running font well , yes , type 1 truetype fonts contain lots characters cases plain text fonts windows ansi windows , mac standard roman encoding mac difference t1 tt ! fonts thousands glyphs , right know rather great new thing reason font 3000 characters large , access 224 paying heavy price downloading time printer storage \( moment one program uses font \) instance , 2 tt fonts mac windows char set metrics fonts font brought mac user access full mac char set yes t1 text fonts character set , superset windows ansi macintosh standard roman question whether get glyphs windows , example , cannot get \( t1 tt \) even though font may well , somewhat painful type 1 font create new windows metric file \( \) , utilities allow truetype font \? get windows \( mac \) \? utilities make possible circumvent hard wired windows ansi encoding \? regards , 1001 east harmony road bob niland suite 503 internet rjn csn org fort collins co 80525 compuserve , \( 303 \) 223 k p horn cambridge , massachusetts , usa
ponder csci unt edu \( \) subject terminal software article ponder organization university north texas lines 10 please reply via email use terminal software windows terminal exe , n't use whole window mean , software 's window size max , still scrolls around 2 3 window use whole window set stty rows 30 , still scrolls 2 3 top windows could anyone tell setup software use whole window \? thanks advance
taylor mail \( tim taylor \) subject nntp software pc tcp nntp lines 12 organization loral data systems article dc peachnet edu kenneth dc peachnet edu \( kenneth \) writes hey , anyone know ftp site get tried using archie luck version pkunzip suppose correct using pkunzip within windows thanks advance ! \) get pk ftp cica indiana edu
gloege informatik tu muenchen de \( andreas gloege \) subject get \? originator gloege informatik tu muenchen de organization technische universitaet muenchen , germany lines 22 've heard good desktop windows 3 0 3 1 anybody tell get \? cica pub pc win3 util also wustl , simtel great number sites post mail andreas gloege 48 \( bei \) 8000 muenchen 2 089 email gloege informatik tu muenchen de
mau herky cs uiowa edu \( mau napoleon \) subject rfd comp databases access organization uunet communications lines 25 nntp posting host rodan uu net uiowa edu official rfd creation new newsgroup general discussion microsoft access name comp databases access moderation unmoderated time , need moderator future evaluation determine one needed purpose access new rdbms windows operating system includes wysiwyg design tools easy creation tables , reports , forms queries database programming language called access basic purpose group provide help people use access 's wysiwyg design tools create simple databases well people use access basic create complex databases rationale eventhough access new rdbms , popular graphical development enviroment initial low price version 1 0 product means access users novices reason newsgroup needed access users discuss experiences product answer 's questions napoleon mau herky cs uiowa edu
rick sundance sjsu edu \( richard warner \) subject atm truetype choose \? \( tt true effects windows \) organization san jose state university math cs dept lines 41 games max u washington edu writes article 1993apr3 seas gwu edu , lai seas gwu edu \( william lai \) writes article gabriel keele ac uk keele ac uk \( c \) writes 've bought pc came bundle lotus stuff , including adobe type manager version 1 15 newcomer windows , i'm confused using , atm truetype program called true effects windows , allows define attributes true type fonts , look like new fonts give font different backgrounds , shadows , reverse , etc works tt fonts yes , idea ripped adobe , program called years thing adobe type 1 fonts adobe said next version work adobe type 1 truetype things including things apparently want want use , best want use atm type font \( oh , yeah lest think really cool program , none effects scalable \( like brick background pattern size whether font 10 point 100 point \) , extensible , e add pattern ca n't background pattern ca n't make pattern extend beyond one character \( every character new font entire pattern , opposed pattern run couple characters \) however cheap maybe buy copy next version comes , fix gripes john
casbah acns nwu edu \( wilson \) subject office package article news 1993apr6 organization northwestern university , evanston illinois lines 31 nntp posting host acns nwu edu charge purchasing computer software small office question microsoft 's office pack 1 \) wondering , programs packaged office pack winword , power point , excel , ccmail complete latest addition \? 2 \) programs way \? 3 \) update single programs latter date \( e excel 4 0 excel 5 \) \? 4 \) receive necessary disks documentation \? 5 \) anything aware makes office package less deal seems \? sorry seem skeptical put price office package 439 39 street sounds like great deal office purchasing first computer software four complete programs less 450 makes little suspicious maybe thanks help advance wilson northwestern university internet casbah acns nwu edu bitnet casbah
leo cae wisc edu \( leo lim \) subject dos6 doublespace stacker 3 0 , okay \? article doug 1993apr6 organization college engineering , univ wisconsin madison lines 7 title suggest , okay \? got dos6 yet , heart doublespace less tight stacker 3 0 disadvantage advantages \? comments appreciated martin
vcd hp com \( bob taylor \) subject amipro deskjet 500 printing problem article vcd f2 distribution usa organization hewlett packard vcd lines 32 x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 tom belmonte \( prime com \) wrote hello , recently tried print envelopes using amipro 3 0 deskjet 500 printer , seem problem happens physically load envelope printer \( per user manual \) select print envelope icon amipro \( proper options selected \) , printer spits envelope without printing either return address selected mailing address point , printer 's online light begins flash , print manager shows printer job busy happens , either shut printer cancel printing job print manager also tried without use print manager , similar results \( amipro shows printer busy \) , anybody idea solution regarding problem \? appreciate help thanks yes ignore manual insert n't use keypad move windows driver sends message printer tells load envelope already loaded , gets ejected printer tries load another instructions manual dumb dos apps n't send load message tom belmonte bob taylor hp vancouver
subject winbench 3 11 help graphics comparison \? ! \? franklig helium gas uug arizona edu \( gregory c franklin \) organization university arizona , tucson lines 32 article zephyr grace cri nz grv grace cri nz writes article news udel edu swyatt bach udel edu \( stephen l wyatt \) writes question winbench \( pc labs thing \) 3 11 386 33 ahead b \( 512k \) card got results windows vga driver 2 44 million ahead b \( 640 480 256 \) driver 455 , 000 winmarks windows svga \( 800 600 16 \) driver 1 68 million winmarks thinking upgrading diamond 24x card read 8 million winmark 386dx 33mhz 4mb ram winbench 2 5 24x v2 02 16 7m 1 , 668 , 274 v2 03 16 7m 1 , 668 , 985 v2 03 16 4 , 602 , 428 v2 03 256 7 , 635 , 278 careful results ! recall , numbers winbench 2 5 calculated differently 3 1 , figures comparable however , answer stephen 's question , replacing ahead b card diamond 24x yield cost effective , dramatic speed increase windows ati graphics ultra plus greg franklin franklig gas uug arizona edu
rick sundance sjsu edu \( richard warner \) subject winbench organization san jose state university math cs dept lines 36 al col hp com \( al devilbiss \) writes jorge erex east sun com \( jorge lach sun bos hardware \) writes ftp site carries winbench results different graphics cards \? excel \( \) format \? latest version winbench differ \? source available , anybody try port x window , least way make comparisons possible \? ftp cica indiana edu pub pc win3 misc winadv zip writeup steve gibson infoworld winbench 3 11 number benchmark results nine isa four vlb video cards current upload likely card 're currently giving serious consideration format latest version winbench know ver 3 11 believe try maintain rating scale versions , new versions released defeat lastest coding tricks put driver programmers beat benchmarks n't know last one considering using winbench test , may want read everything steve gibson said subject infoworld column past couple month short , virtually every board manufacturer cheats test writing things driver make board appear faster winbench suite winbench score bearing reality cards stack real world tasks last pc magazine new accelerators , admitted many winbench interestingly , one type cheating behaviour \( caching bitblt operations , matter unreal \) , yet allow couple types cheating behaviour cards used least one card eliminated editor 's choice cheating benchmark al devilbiss al col hp com
swyatt bach udel edu \( stephen l wyatt \) subject microsoft windows really nntp posting host bach udel edu organization university delaware lines 24 article agate berkeley edu neff123 garnet berkeley edu \( stephen kearney \) writes apparently many people complain confusion results filemanager progman split 's basic flaw one thing say everyone say bad thing \? actually like program launcher file manager seperate make things easier figure mean , take look os 2 's \( flames ! \) personally hate cause much trouble figuring simple things like file copy n't say drag icon ! cause hate icons first place much trouble telling little push buttons mean want f ile c etc although know i'm minority swyatt brahms udel edu ! ! ! disclaimer blame everything someone else
swyatt bach udel edu \( stephen l wyatt \) subject winbench nntp posting host bach udel edu organization university delaware lines 12 ok , everyone cheating tests run macro \( load huge drawing , etc \) machine might tell us real world results \? mean , run tests machine different video cards running word , excel , something like see fast cards \? swyatt brahms udel edu ! ! ! disclaimer blame everything someone else
franklig helium gas uug arizona edu \( gregory c franklin \) subject mouse com3 com4 windows organization university arizona , tucson lines 23 article bcstec ca boeing com isbell bcstec ca boeing com \( robert isbell \) writes jpaparel cs ulowell edu \( joseph paparella \) writes problem configuring mouse windows use com3 irq5 com1 com2 used support two 24 hour bbs lines , go com1 com3 use irq , therefore ca n't use mouse com3 modem com1 , vice versa 's limitation dos fact windows see mouse anything com1 com2 accept fact , either get bus mouse , get new computer would also like know possible use mouse ports com1 com2 advice applies greg franklin franklig gas uug arizona edu
nagel ucsu colorado edu \( kurt nagel \) subject ami pro 3 0 equation mode nntp posting host fido colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 37 nagel ucsu colorado edu \( kurt nagel \) writes hi , i'm problem amipro writing equations equation extends past certain point line , whole thing disappears try delete equation cursor beyond equation , ami goes nuts line counter bottom screen repeatedly way ctrl atl del unfortunate enough save document one screwed equations , document basically trashed \( although able fix going ascii editor large chunks document \) anyone else experienced \? lotus know patch \? \? \? \? \? \? \? thanks advance , kurt nagel fido colorado edu contacted lotus problem today reported previously fix apparantly problem occurs tab characters used immediately preceding equation frame work around equations expected touch right margin delete least one preceding tab use space align frame \( use set frame placed w text wrap around \) , page run occured hosed moral story use space characters align equation frames hope helps rest already contacted problem kurt nagel fido colorado edu
tomh metrics com \( tom haapanen \) subject hercules graphite \? organization software metrics inc lines 11 anyone used hercules graphite adapter \? looks good paper , steve gibson gave good review infoworld 'd love get real world impression , though speed \? drivers \? support \? \( looking something replace ati ultra \) tom haapanen tomh metrics com software metrics inc waterloo , ont stick index fingers corners mouth pull 's corrado makes feel car , january '93
daytonoh ncr com \( brian \) subject dos6 defragment \? \? reply daytonoh ncr com \( brian \) organization daytonoh ncr com lines 14 article 1993apr5 seas gwu edu louray seas gwu edu \( michael panayiotakis \) writes well , subject dos 6 defragmentation \? \? yes , non drives defragmented believe use norton 's speedisk brian lift glasses , friend , mine ncr corp raise hand iss i'm england stole , i'm ireland spent , oh i'm outlawed
hamish cloud apana org au \( hamish moffatt \) subject mouse com3 com4 windows organization cloud nine bbs , melbourne , australia lines 53 jpaparel cs ulowell edu \( joseph paparella \) writes problem configuring mouse windows use com3 irq5 n't believe irq5 problem tried mouse com3 , irq4 \( usual place \) still like simply , windows seems support mice com1 com2 funny part , though , microsoft 's mouse driver \( 8 xx \) quite happy mouse sitting com3 ca n't windows use mouse driver , least support com3 \? \) 3 5 7 4 've tried actually , wanted able use second modem \( com3 irq5 \) windows still talk modem created two profiles , \( modem com1 irq4 \) maestro \( maestro com3 irq5 \) talk maestro \( 1 , \) driver support com3 com4 windows suggestion ps 2' setting windows setup would work \( windows 3 0 \) believe possible worst , would need special version 'a' mouse driver looked com3 com4 instead com1 com2 know irq5 irq7 normally printer port irqs , 've seen nothing like 've experimented logitech 's mouse driver , sucess printers attached side note would really like assign com4 higher irq , soundblaster board uses irq7 \( right , i'm using com4 \) , modem know allows settings irqs 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 7 soundblaster pro , support well finally , board supports irqs 9 one \( except ide controller \) hamish hamish moffatt , hamish cloud apana org au apana australian public cloud nine bbs , 3 635 552 fidonet access network association melbourne australia 58 4100 43 mail info apana org au software voice 61 3 803 1326 information
charles trintex uucp \( charles emmons \) subject version control mac pc lan organization prodigy services co lines 28 lan development product multiple platforms moment working mac dos windows department always used net transport files mac , since requires filter strip lf characters recently one using version control , result , 5 programmers spent great deal time merging files together end week new system could build trying streamline process , hampered lack software allow us share files across pc mac platforms understand used , longer support mac product \( anyone know \? \? \? \) seen people ask development multiple platforms , assume new problem deal \? solutions come \? thanks advance suggestions via posting email enough email responses post synopsis knowledge charles emmons charles emmons charles trintex uucp opinions prodigy services co charles trintex uunet uu net mine alone , unless white plains ny voice 914 993 would like prodigy id fax 914 993 share
vuse vanderbilt edu \( liu \) subject file downloading originator nntp posting host organization vanderbilt university school engineering , nashville , tn , usa distribution usa lines 9 , wonder transfer files sun system \( network \) pc home \( connected network \) tried use , slow seemed getting multiple files time impossible could anybody give hints infomation \? thank advance liu
prism gatech edu \( james dean \) subject permanaent swap file dos 6 0 distribution git organization georgia institute technology lines 58 comp os ms windows misc write reading dos 6 0 book , states windows permanaent swap file work correctly placed compressed drive make things compatable , removed permanent swap file starting upgrade however , dust settled , go windows , says temporary swap file right always , windows directory question come temporary swap files works ok compressed drive , permanent one n't \? might want look windows faq one , best explanation ca n't guarantee i'm way base permenant swap file read written windows talking directly hard disk controller card controller card must use set western digital \( something like \) windows creates file called par windows directory points file uses physical information disk index information file compressed disks actually logical disks disks different characteristics actual physical disk furthermore , information compressed disks must uncompressed used \( e must go decompression program traps disk reads operating system level bios level \) inbetween program , windows cannot use direct methods read logical disk permenant swap file reserve area disk windows use block space dos windows would theoretically even access file dos use disk space \( n't know n't checks somewhere everytime boot windows \) temporary swap file normal dos file accessed windows via dos bios disk compression program tsr loaded file access must go dos \( disk compression \) bios order access \( e never use temporary swap file never \) swap files i'm sure everyone uncompressed part compressed hard disk seen message selected swap file greater suggested size windows use size suggested wa n't create swap file anyway something like well , friend mine \( robert \) called microsoft asked said windows checks amount free disk space divides number 2 checks largest contiguous block free disk space windows suggests smaller two numbers also said absolutely circumstances none ! windows uses swap file larger suggested size well 's said ! call bull true windows report memory available 's going use \? takers \? james \( n't get net , someone post \? thanks \)
carols ohsu edu \( carol \) subject help winqvt article ohsu 1993apr15 465 organization oregon health sciences university lines 17 nntp posting host 137 53 130 7 rc file 137 112 5 2 137 112 199 50 host file requires names 'll using addition ip address 100 0 0 1 name server name 100 2 2 1 name router name carols ohsu edu
ntaib silver ucs indiana edu \( iskandar taib \) subject hercules graphite \? nntp posting host silver ucs indiana edu organization indiana university lines 20 article 1993apr06 metrics com tomh metrics com \( tom haapanen \) writes anyone used hercules graphite adapter \? looks good paper , steve gibson gave good review infoworld 'd love get real world impression , though speed \? drivers \? support \? pc world reviewers found herc people hard coded winbench text driver clever , \? case , winbench results pretty much inflated get one send mail might buy ati gu 9 \) iskandar taib thing worse peach ala internet ntaib silver ucs indiana edu frog frog ala peach bitnet ntaib iubacs !
spitz ana med uni muenchen de \( richard spitz \) subject help winqvt reply spitz ana med uni muenchen de \( richard spitz \) organization inst f der , muenchen \( germany \) distribution lines 63 swartzjh nextwork rose hulman edu \( jeff h swartz \) writes use name rosevc rose hulman edu initiating nameserver query nameserver query time use ip number local host gateway responding know nameserver correct router correct work fine using ncsa telnet ftp working ok , definitions qvtnet ini rc incorrect \( see \) docs said running concurrent packet software need load pktmux \? \? \? apply \? \? \? , n't think using qvtnet novell concurrently , n't \? use different packet types , qvtnet \( tcp ip \) novell \( ipx spx \) able coexist fine pktmux required using different tcp ip packages concurrently rc file 137 112 5 2 137 112 199 50 first problem n't specify , ip addresses file look like 137 112 5 2 name nameserver 137 112 199 50 name router beginning winqvt ini file net name swartzjh test rose hulman edu specify hostname , without domain part router 137 112 199 50 instead , use router name router , specified rc know release notes 3 31 say ip addresses work also , apparently n't nameserver 137 112 5 2 , , use hostname nameserver instead ip address worked fine way , although could specify one nameserver say possible specify three , separated , n't work hope helps , richard dr richard spitz internet spitz ana med uni muenchen de edv tel 49 89 7095 fax 49 89 7095 munich , germany
ntaib silver ucs indiana edu \( iskandar taib \) subject windows 3 1 general questions nntp posting host silver ucs indiana edu organization indiana university lines 30 article 1495 sdrc com sony1 sdrc com \( robert \) writes 1 received amish utilities windows purchased turbo c windows amish utilities \? \? received disk , docs maybe \? 9 \) 2 running windows 1024x768x256 mode using driver supplied svga card card boca svga card 1meg ram , think et4000 chip \( least thats program tells \) driver old driver written windows 3 1 , seems work fine , would gain benefits switching newer driver \? one use could find \? lots drivers available ftp cica indiana edu pub pc win3 drivers video 've tried two zip zip give choice turbo non turbo drivers turbo drivers fast caused mouse problems machine \( diamond speedstar card \) finally got turbo drivers \( \) diamond amazing fast \( non accelerated card \) best gpf 's month iskandar taib thing worse peach ala internet ntaib silver ucs indiana edu frog frog ala peach bitnet ntaib iubacs !
organization penn state university psuvm psu edu subject fall comdex '93 lines 8 anyone info coming fall comdex '93 \? asked one peers get info might available , could anyone point right direction \? help would appreciated dave stevens psuvm psu edu training multimedia services psuvm penn state university
nyx cs du edu \( andrew jacobs \) subject using microsoft foundation classes borland c 3 1 organization university denver , dept math comp sci distribution usa lines 7 thanks info assume mfc 1 0 anyone know work mfc 2 0 , else needs done \? thanks andy jacobs
moy cae wisc edu \( howard moy \) subject fix word spacing \? organization u wisconsin madison college engineering lines 14 hi , problem using problem characters get cut display , print ok anyone know fix see screen \? many thanks , howard ! howard moy ! ! \( 608 \) 255 !
empros com \( mike \) subject character codes problems reply empros com nntp posting host empros com organization empros power systems control , division siemens ea lines 15 help ! working project involves using text foreign language characters \( case norwegian \) manipulating data 4 0 data comma seperated variable files rs6000 workstation norwegian characters show fine windows , appear funny characters workstation workstation setup national language support problem entering norwegian characters workstation keyboard investigation found character codes used windows different \( characters \) specified msdos code page msdos codes seem workstation gives , get around please reply e mail office next days reading news thanks
ess harris com \( mike \) subject faster oak vga drivers \? \? \? nntp posting host ess harris com reply ess harris com organization harris corporation , government aerospace systems division lines 21 i'm using oak based vga card computer \( 640x480x256 \) 've downloaded driver ftp cica indiana edu 've good luck however , anyone know faster driver available card \? thanks , mike michael j phone \( 407 \) 729 harris corporation email p box 94000 ess harris com mailstop 100 palm bay , florida i'm going say anything stupid today !
2a42dubinski vms csd mu edu subject word 2 0 help ! organization marquette university computer services lines 10 reply 2a42dubinski vms csd mu edu nntp posting host csd mu edu hello , i'm problems printing spanish characters wfw2 using true type accented characters , used insert symbol put document however , put doc , get big square character , prints \( dismay , thinking way worked \) anyone tell printed spanish characters \? know wp 5 1 built , recall ever seeing option wfw2 help ! robert aliases include robb , regal , sir , mr , marquette university math computer science double major internet address 2a42dubinski vms csd mu edu milwaukee , wi
stein u washington edu \( yoon aw \) subject documentation microsoft diagnostics \? article shelley distribution na organization university washington , seattle lines 10 nntp posting host stein u washington edu hi , found believe undocumented feature windows directory , microsoft diagnostics , ver 2 00 specifically interested depth explanation legends memory mapping report thanks aw u washington edu
subject postscript view dos windows \? hjstein sunrise huji ac il \( harvey j stein \) distribution world organization home staff hjstein organization nntp posting host sunrise huji ac il reply paladin world std com 's message thu , 8 apr 1993 21 40 44 gmt lines 6 've using version 2 5 2 ghostscript , i'm quite satisfied , actually , 3 versions plain dos version , 386 version , windows version harvey stein hjstein math huji ac il
finn convex com \( tom finn \) subject multiple desktops nntp posting host eugene convex com organization convex computer corporation , richardson , tx , usa x disclaimer message written user convex computer corp opinions expressed user necessarily convex lines 22 article news hawaii edu dmcgee uluhe soest hawaii edu \( mcgee \) writes free share \( ware \) package allow multiple desktops windows 3 1 desired desk top several people name choice programs etc 's package called workspace cica 5 desktops n't done much yet , seems able want n't exact archive name handy , 's something like wspace blah zip tom finn convex com speak peace name ideal deduced fact wars jerry mercenary
mau herky cs uiowa edu \( mau napoleon \) subject 2nd rfd comp databases ms access article rodan organization cs uiowa edu lines 31 nntp posting host rodan uu net 2nd discussion \( rfd \) creation comp databases ms access discussion period started april 6 last april 28 , \( 22 days \) official rfd creation new newsgroup general discussion microsoft access name comp databases ms access moderation unmoderated time , need moderator future evaluation determine one needed purpose access new rdbms windows operating system includes wysiwyg design tools easy creation tables , reports , forms queries database programming language called access basic purpose group provide help people use access 's wysiwyg design tools create simple databases well people use access basic create complex databases rationale eventhough access new rdbms , popular graphical development enviroment initial low price version 1 0 product means access users novices reason newsgroup needed access users discuss experiences product answer 's questions napoleon mau herky cs uiowa edu
acsu buffalo edu \( timothy j \) subject wanted dialog box select file \( \) dos apps article acsu organization ub lines 31 originator tolstoy acsu buffalo edu nntp posting host tolstoy acsu buffalo edu i'm looking program let use windows common dialog box select file use running dos app basically , several dos apps use different files accept file command line parameter , way \( least know \) easily running windows set pif file prompts additional parameters \( point type file name \) problems 1 \) sometimes ca n't remember file exactly located would nice browse directories without use file manager 2 \) i'm lazy hate type long pathnames files several directory levels deep anyone point program let know way handle , 'd appreciate thanks , tim net n't organized enough considered anarchy autarch acsu buffalo edu
alanchem csd4 csd uwm edu \( alan scott olson \) subject win nt \? \? \? organization computing services division , university wisconsin milwaukee lines 18 distribution usa nntp posting host 129 89 7 4 originator alanchem csd4 csd uwm edu two part question 1 \) windows nt 'real' windows os \? 2 \) past weekend , local 'hacker' radio show new product microsoft called recall anyone know \? thanks heap alan alan olson swanson environmental , inc e mail alanchem csd4 csd uwm edu alan alchemy chem uwm edu want good music \? check milwaukee 's
rnichols cbnewsg cb att com \( robert k nichols \) subject copy move files file manager organization distribution usa lines 25 article murdoch acc virginia edu orion lib virginia edu \( scott \) writes understanding , copy files one directory another drive file manager \( using mouse \) , hold ctrl key dragging file one directory 's window works 98 time 2 , file gets moved rather copied anybody else encountered \? tried respond email , attempts bounced condition ctrl key press mouse button makes difference whatsoever holding ctrl key release mouse button want force copy operation 's simple experiment select file begin drag \( ctrl key \) notice file 's icon disappears listing window watch happens icon press release ctrl key \( keeping mouse button pressed \) addition , icon dragging show holding ctrl key , indicating file copied rather moved bob nichols bell laboratories rnichols ihlpm ih att com
charles tinman dev prodigy com \( \) subject change licensed data windows 3 1 \? nntp posting host tinman organization prodigy services company , white plains , ny lines 11 tried installing software \? otherwise would dubious simple ways change screen designed embarassment would pirates \? charles charles emmons charles trintex uucp opinions prodigy services co charles trintex uunet uu net mine alone , unless white plains ny voice 914 993 would like prodigy id fax 914 993 share
charles tinman dev prodigy com \( \) subject multiple desktops nntp posting host tinman organization prodigy services company , white plains , ny lines 16 article news hawaii edu dmcgee uluhe soest hawaii edu \( mcgee \) writes free share \( ware \) package allow multiple desktops windows 3 1 desired desk top several people name choice programs etc one included package advertising net couple weeks ago \( good way , ted ! \) low price anyone remember \? charles emmons charles trintex uucp opinions prodigy services co charles trintex uunet uu net mine alone , unless white plains ny voice 914 993 would like prodigy id fax 914 993 share
2a42dubinski vms csd mu edu subject change licensed data windows 3 1 \? organization marquette university computer services lines 19 reply 2a42dubinski vms csd mu edu nntp posting host csd mu edu article 1993apr15 trintex uucp , charles tinman dev prodigy com \( \) writes tried installing software \? otherwise would dubious simple ways change screen designed embarassment would pirates \? ahh , yes , fun topic , name incribed disk , , encoded even hex editor find write licensed , ca n't change name underneth think wish change would pirate , 're going promote robert aliases include robb , regal , sir , mr , marquette university math computer science double major internet address 2a42dubinski vms csd mu edu milwaukee , wi
servis author ecn purdue edu \( brian k servis \) subject ghostscript win fonts \? \? \? \? keywords ghostscript , fonts organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 26 servis author ecn purdue edu \( brian k servis \) writes 's downloaded windows ghostscript package \( zip , zip \) ftp load ps file says cant find font substitutes font called ugly substituting basic fonts , would imagine fonts included font library something wrong missing \? ugly fonts clear well defined , , etc , basically ugly ! advice welcome ok , realize get font files ftp site found cica another question 24 zip fonts compatible \? \? please email brian servis servis author ecn purdue edu happened way actual quotes insurance claims say may think say may pedestrian idea purdue thinks way go , ran
dabl2 nlm nih gov \( b lindbergh \) subject diamond ss24x , win 3 1 , mouse cursor organization national library medicine lines 10 anybody seen mouse cursor distortion running diamond 1024x768x256 driver \? sorry , n't know version driver \( indication menus \) 's recently delivered gateway system going try latest drivers diamond bbs wondered anyone else seen post email lindbergh dabl2 nlm nih gov
ux4 cso uiuc edu \( robertson \) subject ati ultra pro drivers \? organization university illinois urbana lines 4 anybody know ftp site latest windows drivers ati gup \? thanks
guyd austin ibm com \( guy dawson \) subject hercules graphite \? originator guyd pal500 austin ibm com organization ibm austin lines 38 article usenet ucs indiana edu , ntaib silver ucs indiana edu \( iskandar taib \) writes article 1993apr06 metrics com tomh metrics com \( tom haapanen \) writes anyone used hercules graphite adapter \? looks good paper , steve gibson gave good review infoworld 'd love get real world impression , though speed \? drivers \? support \? pc world reviewers found herc people hard coded think iit people make chip card based hard coded string one looked came conclusion iit chip still pretty fast winbench text driver clever , \? case , winbench results pretty much inflated get one send mail might buy ati gu 9 \) iskandar taib thing worse peach ala internet ntaib silver ucs indiana edu frog frog ala peach bitnet ntaib iubacs ! guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns co uk tel hoskyns uk 71 251 2128 guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa 512 838 3377
kentiler matt ksu ksu edu \( kent p iler \) subject procomm plus windows problems organization kansas state university lines 10 nntp posting host matt ksu ksu edu hi , normal procomm plus dos , 've considering buying windows version got really great reviews computer shopper friend connects mainframe unix machines using , screen seems problem keeping modem 14 , 400 modem 486 50 mhz machine ca n't see trouble keeping pcplus dos works great , windows seems always screw common fix \? something screwed machine \? kent
po cwru edu \( mahesh \) subject quattro pro file format organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 12 reply po cwru edu \( mahesh \) nntp posting host thor ins cwru edu trying write program read files created quattro pro 3 0 would anyone know find information regarding format quattro pro stores files thanks advance mahesh famous madam 's wax museum still case po cwru edu
cimlinc uucp \( brett harper \) subject gui application frameworks windows \? \? organization cimlinc , inc engineering lines 63 hello , i'm investigating purchase object oriented application framework come across look good zapp 1 1 zinc 3 5 zinc software c views liant win blaise considerations i'm using new windows programming \( i'm unix x world \) , quality abstraction class libraries provide important however , since i'm adverse learning internals windows programming , new programming methodology closely aligned native one n't believe arbitrary levels abstraction , sake changing api , valuable since developing 32bit windows nt system memory management issues issues particular windows 3 1 api less important probably buy another c class library \( something like tools h components rational \) handle data structures miscellaneous stuff \( etc \) features important toolkit two narrowed zapp zinc , seem two toolkits received attention media wondering anyone first hand experience toolkits \( especially zapp zinc \) couple observations toolkits seem particularly noteworthy zapp seems extensive coverage windows functionality also includes miscellaneous useful classes new fancy 3d style controls available , support custom controls windows nt version \( essential \) graphics display output architecture \( useful printing \) class automatically managing control layout resize seems newcomer , could advantage designing better system zinc platform independent resource strategy \( important right \) comes interface builder tool windows nt version \( essential \) seems around longer \( mature \) , grew dos version better demo \) source code availability options lacking ole support neither seem particular support multimedia type stuff thoughts anyone would much appreciated , thanks , brett harper brett harper cimlinc com
rnichols cbnewsg cb att com \( robert k nichols \) subject permanaent swap file dos 6 0 summary factor organization lines 50 article hydra gatech edu prism gatech edu \( james dean \) writes swap files i'm sure everyone uncompressed part compressed hard disk seen message selected swap file greater suggested size windows use size suggested wa n't create swap file anyway something like well , friend mine \( robert \) called microsoft asked said windows checks amount free disk space divides number 2 checks largest contiguous block free disk space windows suggests smaller two numbers also said absolutely circumstances none ! windows uses swap file larger suggested size well 's said ! call bull true windows report memory available 's going use \? think support confused disk space limit virtual address space limit far disk concerned , limited amount contiguous free space limit causes message , windows use , amount virtual address space virtual memory manager create , function amount free memory windows starts 386enh section system ini , specify parameter multiplier following description windows resource kit entry specifies multiplier determines amount linear address space create system , computed rounding amount available physical memory nearest 4 mb value value specified increasing value increases amount available linear address space , causing size data structures increase also increases paging activity proportionately slow system specify value 1 20 default 4 change entry , must edit system ini bob nichols bell laboratories rnichols ihlpm ih att com
rmohns vax clarku edu subject win nt \? \? \? organization clark university lines 52 previous article , alanchem csd4 csd uwm edu \( alan scott olson \) wrote two part question 1 \) windows nt 'real' windows os \? 2 \) past weekend , local 'hacker' radio show new product microsoft called recall anyone know \? thanks heap alan windows nt giant windows operating system win3 1 , run top dos os , \( billy gates assures us \) true multi tasking multithreading , meets dod security specs , run win3 1 programs well dos programs , multi processor support , primarily server program 's overhead high economical users speaking overhead , requires least 386 16 megs ram run 12 , 's like running os 2 2 0 4 megs 's run also , heard system files take 30 50 megs , recommended drive half gig ! distributed cd rom chicogo want use , like nt , true os multitasking multithreading , much smaller hardware requirements , meet dod security specs \( 's okay since probably client os \) differences , main ones article chicogo pc week last august chicogo nt development groups micro oft intense competition , said however , think different relationship arise nt server \( n \) , chicogo client machine entirely possible different os 's work together , partly chicogo small nt \( think way , anyway \) \( novell netware creates os server truly dos , n't scorn concept \) anyway , n't expect soon windows 4 dos 7 supposed released next year \( read see 95 \) , expect chicogo wo n't til '96 luck , 'll proven wrong ! \) rob rmohns vax clarku edu rob mohns annoy rush limbaugh think
rmohns vax clarku edu subject change licensed data windows 3 1 \? organization clark university lines 15 relation question concerning changing registered information ms windows previous article , 2a42dubinski vms csd mu edu wrote ahh , yes , fun topic , name incribed disk , , encoded even hex editor find write licensed , ca n't change name underneth find hex editor , although tried overwrite sure ca n't \? may mistaken \( \? \? \? \) rob rmohns vax clarku edu
wil shell portal com \( ville v walveranta \) subject fall comdex '93 nntp posting host jobe organization portal communications company x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 20 psuvm psu edu wrote anyone info coming fall comdex '93 \? asked one peers get info might available , could anyone point right direction \? help would appreciated 's las vegas \( always \) november 16th 20th information contact interface group 300 first avenue needham , sorry , phone number available consult directory service massachusetts number \( 617 , 508 413 \) willy ville v walveranta tel fax \( 510 \) 420 0729 96 linda ave , apt 5 finland 990 1 510 420 0729 oakland , ca \( faxes automatically recognized \) usa email wil shell portal com
bcasavan ecn uoknor edu \( brent casavant \) subject permanaent swap file dos 6 0 summary explanation message nntp posting host ecn uoknor edu organization engineering computer network , university oklahoma , norman , ok , usa lines 63 article hydra gatech edu prism gatech edu \( james dean \) writes stuff deleted swap files i'm sure everyone uncompressed part compressed hard disk seen message selected swap file greater suggested size windows use size suggested wa n't create swap file anyway something like well , friend mine \( robert \) called microsoft asked said windows checks amount free disk space divides number 2 checks largest contiguous block free disk space windows suggests smaller two numbers also said absolutely circumstances none ! windows uses swap file larger suggested size well 's said ! call bull true windows report memory available 's going use \? takers \? james well , someone microsoft told wrong windows use swap file larger recommended size last summer went microsoft windows 3 1 technical workshop distributed lot information general public might aware anyway main book handed section creating larger recommended swapfile 'll quote information create permanent swapfile larger recommended size , receive message telling windows use anything larger recommended size error message incorrect , allow use larger swapfile , four times amount ram machine see , microsoft know information incorrect probably ran new job telling little knew may , would really suggest everyone take opportunity go technical workshops n't actually incredibly depth , get lot material bugs optimization straight know besides offer huge discounts software remember correctly , could pick word 2 0 , excel 4 0 , whatever presentation program 130 full blown version , upgrade educational version could also pick microsoft office 500 something like sprang word well , hope helpful someone besides hope someone go workshop save little money anyone microsoft reading really love products need job graduate also , work something \? \) thanks , brent casavant bcasavan mailhost ecn uoknor edu
fisk mayo edu \( tom fisk 2d 337 stm 5 \) subject ati ultra pro drivers \? news software vax vms vnews 1 41 reply fisk mayo edu organization university arizona mis department mosaic group lines 20 article news cso uiuc edu , ux4 cso uiuc edu \( robertson \) writes anybody know ftp site latest windows drivers ati gup \? thanks latest driver release 59 found ftp cica indiana edu pub pc win3 directory structure zip checked ati 's bbs last nite releases past 59 ati local bus card noticed get garbage around edges window move anybody else noticed also \? tom thomas b fisk internet fisk mayo edu mayo clinic n't know voice \( 507 \) 255 200 first street sw 're going 'll never fax \( 507 \) 255 mail stop 2d 337 stm get rochester , mn
chen citr uq oz au \( g chen \) subject help bitmaps summary bitmap size keywords bitmap , windows 3 1 , sdk organization prentice centre , university queensland lines 18 wonder anyone tell whether create bitmap size \? followed bitmap creation example sdk manual specified bitmap \( set width height 24 \) supplied byte string 72 chars cannot get right bitmap image changed width height used value string \( padded zero make right size \) got image example manual size , multiple 2 bytes define bitmap image size \? thanks much g chen chen citr uq oz au g chen , centre information technology research , university queensland , australia chen citr uq oz au tel 61 7 365 , fax 61 7 365
maley micro cs umn edu \( michael p maley \) subject gui application frameworks windows \? \? nntp posting host micro cs umn edu organization university minnesota lines 6 look zapp really liked however , think wait version 2 0 \( think soon \) mike maley maley cs umn edu
chrisa hpwarr hp com \( chris \) subject \( \? \) speedstar vga card win drivers reply chrisa hpwarr uucp keywords vga speedstar drivers video card lines 6 drivers \( updated \) available directly diamond even ship charge \( least \)
ak333 cleveland freenet edu \( martin linsenbigler \) subject permanent swap file organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 39 reply ak333 cleveland freenet edu \( martin linsenbigler \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu previous article , mlipsie std com \( mike lipsie mpu \) says article sunfish usd edu pwiseman salmon usd edu \( cliff \) writes swap file purged every time exit windows shut computer without exiting windows swap file remains 20 mb large side , running applications really need time \? , course , true temporary swap file purged every time exit windows permanent file permanent changed adjusting virtual memory suspect either original poster adjusted swap file 20mb \( forgot \) somebody helped mike lipsie \( work \) mlipsie ca com mitsubishi electronic research laboratory \( home \) mikel uucp first setup windows using self load mode grabbed 20 megs swap file space , 120 meg hd nearly empty time deleted windows time recently reloaded , hd nearly full windows took 4 megs read somewhere best rule thumb permanent swap file size regular ram size 4 megs ram windows took 4 meg perm swap file works well fact available hd space , 20 megs wo n't let make swap file bigger change virtual mem swap file 8 megs think said ram c ya artin communication sent artin university arizona tucson ak333 cleveland freenet edu mlinsenb ccit arizona edu mlinsenb arizvms death dead 2 , 000 years follow king kings
ecst csuchico edu \( jeff meyers \) subject procomm plus windows problems organization california state university , chico lines 20 nntp posting host psycho ecst csuchico edu article matt ksu ksu edu kentiler matt ksu ksu edu \( kent p iler \) writes friend connects mainframe unix machines using , screen seems problem keeping modem 14 , 400 modem 486 50 mhz machine tell probably needs upgrade faster video card ! 9600 baud modem one reasons sought diamond speedstar 24x get 7 million winmarks 386 25 keeps modem speed \( using procomm plus windows , \) get 10 million machine card anything 10 yield acceptable speed jeff meyers ecst csuchico edu chico , ca nocal ca usa na grid \? \?
goudswaa fraser sfu ca \( peter goudswaard \) subject exe \? keywords organization simon fraser university , burnaby , b c , canada lines 15 windows 3 1 directory , came across file called exe assume part registration database , neither windows manual , win resource kit , pc mag 's description files windows directory reference least one could find regedit exe use \? way base \? peter goudswaard goudswaa sfu ca \( preferred \) pgoudswa cln etc bc ca pgoudswa cue bc ca 's gift like present goudswaard 's observation
joel jach hawaii edu \( joel \) subject page setup notepad reply cbnewsh cb att com 's message tue , 13 apr 1993 20 05 08 gmt organization uk infrared telescope , joint astronomy centre , hawaii x news reader vms news 1 20 lines 22 1993apr13 cbnewsh cb att com cbnewsh cb att com writes often use notepad view print read type files often find rushing get print manager stop printer delete file print queue 've forgotten reset print margins 75 inches \( left right \) 0 inches resulting printed text looks chopped hard returns source file struggled margin problem ages well , finally got hold shareware binary editor , dug notepad exe \( setup facility force notepad default 0 0 margins 's hardwired code ! ! ! \) search 75 , change offending bytes 00 , et viola guys options anyway \? i'm interested whether problem rears 's ugly head certain printers i'm using old epson lx 800 \( ex 800 \? never remember \) aloha
dunx1 ocs drexel edu \( mike \) subject panasonic kx driver \? organization drexel university , phila pa lines 2 anyone know print drivers windows panasonic kx 9 pin dot matrix printer \?
keele ac uk \( c \) subject change licensed data windows 3 1 \? lines 13 distribution world nntp posting host seq1 cc keele ac uk x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 write licensed , ca n't change name underneth think wish change would pirate , 're going promote ! computer supplied name mix upper lower case , workplace mis typed i'm getting fed ! took 20 \( ! \) phone calls supplier get computer working really ca n't face tackling chris
root c1 ac uk \( convex unix \) subject help winqvt reply tb ua ac uk organization natural environment research council lines 4 similar problem try changing 0 0 0 0 255 255 254 0 tommy
jpaparel cs ulowell edu \( joseph paparella \) subject anyone using video windows \? keywords video windows organization umass lowell computer science distribution na lines 4 suggestion would contact microsoft sdk would need call developer services \( 800 \) 227 extension 6 5 30pm pacific time
kjell hut fi \( kjell \) subject driver panasonic kx organization helsinki university technology lines 15 distribution comp reply kjell hut fi nntp posting host sandman cs hut fi greetings ! looking pro win 3 1 printer driver panasonic laser printer kx \( sure order first letters name , numbers right important \) found drivers panasonic printers , think drivers available model included grateful help ! kjell hut fi kjell hut fi kjell vipunen hut fi
adriene nazaretian qm yale edu \( go ny giants ! \) subject win nt \? \? \? nntp posting host cis yale edu organization yale university new , connecticut usa lines 72 article vax clarku edu , rmohns vax clarku edu says previous article , alanchem csd4 csd uwm edu \( alan scott olson \) wrote two part question 1 \) windows nt 'real' windows os \? 2 \) past weekend , local 'hacker' radio show new product microsoft called recall anyone know \? thanks heap alan windows nt giant windows operating system win3 1 , run top dos os , \( billy gates assures us \) true multi tasking multithreading , meets dod security specs , run win3 1 programs well dos programs , multi processor support , primarily server program 's overhead high economical users also runs os 2 character based apps posix apps dos , 16bit 32 bit windows apps run windows 32 bit subsystem consider fact nt , built support tcp ip built support netbeui comes tcp utils like ping ftp client , etc applications like schedule 32 bit version storage argument isnt issue speaking overhead , requires least 386 16 megs ram run 12 , 's like running os 2 2 0 4 megs 's run also , heard system files take 30 50 megs , recommended drive half gig ! distributed cd rom ran 486 ton disk swapping , virtual memory paging file crawled \( oct build \) upgraded machine 16m performance good , point installed march build consider probably still working feature set , havent done lot fine tuning code yet chicogo want use , like nt , true os multitasking multithreading , much smaller hardware requirements , meet dod security specs \( 's okay since probably client os \) differences , main ones article chicogo pc week last august chicogo nt development groups micro oft intense competition , said however , think different relationship arise nt server \( n \) , chicogo client machine entirely possible different os 's work together , partly chicogo small nt \( think way , anyway \) \( novell netware creates os server truly dos , n't scorn concept \) anyway , n't expect soon windows 4 dos 7 supposed released next year \( read see 95 \) , expect chicogo wo n't til '96 little info chicago cant make comparison beta \? anyone tested cares make comparison \? 0 02
dil admin mhs unc edu \( dave laudicina \) subject win nt \? \? \? nntp posting host dil adp unc edu organization unc office information technology lines 20 little info chicago cant make comparison beta \? anyone tested cares make comparison \? 0 02 chicago read projected run 4m 386 higher definitely aimed desktop rumored offer preemptive multitasking , multithreading offer multiprocessing 32 bit reliance dos rumored integrated file program manager dos 7 rumored similar chicago without gui also step towards cairo \( next generation os \) rumored object oriented wonder windows 4 0 fits stepping stone chicago \? hope helps thx dave l
wild access digex com \( wildstrom \) subject win nt \? \? \? organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 21 nntp posting host access digex net rmohns vax clarku edu writes chicogo want use , like nt , true os multitasking multithreading , much smaller hardware requirements , meet dod security specs \( 's okay since probably client os \) differences , main ones article chicogo pc week last august chicogo nt development groups micro oft intense competition , said however , think different relationship arise nt server \( n \) , chicogo client machine entirely possible different os 's work together , partly chicogo small nt \( think way , anyway \) \( novell netware creates os server truly dos , n't scorn concept \) anyway , n't expect soon windows 4 dos 7 supposed released next year \( read see 95 \) , expect chicogo wo n't til '96 chicago differ \( sort \) announced windows 4 understand ing , least windows 4 's sort nt lite full fledged operating system lacking server security features make nt bear w4 true multithreading \?
wild access digex com \( wildstrom \) subject procomm plus windows problems organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 16 nntp posting host access digex net kentiler matt ksu ksu edu \( kent p iler \) writes hi , normal procomm plus dos , 've considering buying windows version got really great reviews computer shopper friend connects mainframe unix machines using , screen seems problem keeping modem 14 , 400 modem 486 50 mhz machine ca n't see trouble keeping pcplus dos works great , windows seems always screw common fix \? something screwed machine \? kent trouble running procomm windows 14 4 v 42 considerably slower 486sx could video problem incredibly slow video
horus cem msu edu \( greg cook \) subject word 2 0 help ! organization michigan state university lines 12 nntp posting host horus cem msu edu article vms csd mu edu , 2a42dubinski vms csd mu edu anyone tell printed spanish characters \? know wp 5 1 built , recall ever seeing option wfw2 help ! try using extended character set \( alt sequences \) look character map accessories group see alt sequence font want ! gregory r cook internet horus cem msu edu department chemistry student msu edu michigan state university cook cem msu edu east lansing , mi bitnet cook bitnet
subject need windows logo lines 19 organization monsanto company article access digex net , holland access digex com \( brian holland \) writes markus maier \( maier rz uni ulm de \) wrote hi , well i'm searching ms windows logo , u know picture u start windows , suitable format , like gif jpg , c windows system vgalogo rle memory serves correctly , rle compressed bmp format readable wingif , paintshop pro , paint , god knows many programs mike agricultural group monsanto p box 174 , la internet address monsanto com
dewinter prl philips nl \( rob de winter \) subject wanted symantec address originator dewinter prl philips nl organization philips research laboratories , eindhoven , netherlands lines 5 nothing beats skiing , want real fun holidays rob de winter philips research , ist , building wl 1 p box 80000 , 5600 ja eindhoven netherlands tel 31 40 743621 e mail dewinter prl philips nl
dewinter prl philips nl \( rob de winter \) subject wanted address symantec originator dewinter prl philips nl organization philips research laboratories , eindhoven , netherlands lines 17 looking exact address symantec , distributes norton desktop windows software information looking mail address phone number fax number e mail address thanks advance nothing beats skiing , want real fun holidays rob de winter philips research , ist , building wl 1 p box 80000 , 5600 ja eindhoven netherlands tel 31 40 743621 e mail dewinter prl philips nl
moore email ncsc navy mil \( jim moore \) subject change licensed data windows 3 1 \? organization coastal systems station lines 27 article vax clarku edu rmohns vax clarku edu writes relation question concerning changing registered information ms windows previous article , 2a42dubinski vms csd mu edu wrote ahh , yes , fun topic , name incribed disk , , encoded even hex editor find write licensed , ca n't change name underneth find hex editor , although tried overwrite sure ca n't \? may mistaken \( \? \? \? \) change part continuously government organization , code \( branch \) changes year finished changing registration information using norton utilities sent original hex offset user exe containing information , reply indicated got several similar answers 's encoded way legality , 's nothing keeps changing information certainly n't reach alter serial number printed inside manual jim moore panama city , fl
caesar \( alex \) subject gui application frameworks windows \? \? nntp posting host caesar iaf uiowa edu organization university iowa , image analysis facility lines 38 article 1993apr12 cimlinc uucp cimlinc uucp \( brett harper \) writes hello , i'm investigating purchase object oriented application framework come across look good zinc platform independent resource strategy \( important right \) brett harper cimlinc com thought resources , important use toolkit check uses resources used motif os2 wrote resource converter os2 motif , really n't easy , especially naming scheme motif cannot rename controls widgets windows call ok button id ok every instance , n't work motif , 'd call ok , motif expects text string rather number constructor know convert define proper resource identifier 'd check toolkit expects names , use resources , uses resources platforms intend port \( way , would never use anything \) alex alex image analysis facility university iowa iaf uiowa edu
monu6 cc monash edu au \( b wuysang \) subject hercules graphite \? organization monash university , melb , australia lines 22 article usenet ucs indiana edu ntaib silver ucs indiana edu \( iskandar taib \) writes article 1993apr06 metrics com tomh metrics com \( tom haapanen \) writes anyone used hercules graphite adapter \? looks good paper , steve gibson gave good review infoworld 'd love get real world impression , though speed \? drivers \? support \? pc world reviewers found herc people hard coded winbench text driver clever , \? case , winbench results pretty much inflated impressive performance graphite winmark , wintach result \( esp paint performance \) judging wintach tests , hardly imagine cheat driver budy wuysang student monash university \( clayton \) melbourne , australia
dabl2 nlm nih gov \( b lindbergh \) subject diamond ss24x , win 3 1 , mouse cursor organization national library medicine lines 21 article 1993apr15 204845 24939 nlm nih gov dabl2 nlm nih gov \( b lindbergh \) writes anybody seen mouse cursor distortion running diamond 1024x768x256 driver \? sorry , n't know version driver \( indication menus \) 's recently delivered gateway system going try latest drivers diamond bbs wondered anyone else seen followup , co worker 's machine latest 2 03 drivers happens using 1024x768x256 driver sometimes takes minute cursor wig , eventually mode something stepping memory video card wants excluded a000 c7ff emm386 line system ini problem persisted perhaps something specific gateway machine 's components 66mhz dx 2 eisa bus \( \? \) controller ah well , hoping kind problem' somebody seen perhaps call gateway order , find folks usually far know lindbergh dabl2 nlm nih gov
bca ece cmu edu \( brian c anderson \) subject win nt \? \? \? originator bca packard ece cmu edu lines 11 reply bca ece cmu edu \( brian c anderson \) organization electrical computer engineering , carnegie mellon distribution cmu article access digex net , wild access digex com \( wildstrom \) writes wild access digex com \( wildstrom \) subject win nt \? \? \? date 16 apr 1993 09 27 10 0400 much stuff deleted win32 \? upgraded mathcad 4 0 installed directory win32 windows system upgrade told win32 required
sdrc com \( ron \) subject procomm plus windows problems organization sdrc lines 14 lot problems keeping hardware interrupts windows dos regardless communication software using try following 1 \) turn disk write cache disk downloading cache save much grabs control machine takes long write disk loose characters 2 \) use different uart serial line old uart 's \( 8250 16450 \) buffer one character internally new uart 's \( 16550 \) buffer 16 , plenty situations run windows msd exe find uart machine ron
rick silver sjsu edu \( richard warner \) subject win nt \? \? \? nntp posting host silver sjsu edu organization san jose state university math cs dept lines 12 rmohns vax clarku edu writes windows nt giant windows operating system win3 1 , run top dos os , \( billy gates assures us \) true multi tasking multithreading , meets dod security specs , run win3 1 programs well dos programs , multi processor support , primarily server program 's overhead high economical users correction billy promising run windows 3 1 programs dos programs expect everything run nt unless current ms apps
cl238405 ulkyvx louisville edu \( steve w brewer \) subject make ghostscript work \? lines 12 nntp posting host ulkyvx louisville edu organization university louisville files need download ghostscript 2 5 2 \? never used ghostscript , n't files zip , downloaded cica unfortunately , n't seem work 's , needs files n't want run ghostscript windows 3 1 ms dos 386 pc \( understand 's versions environments \) files need download get \? info would steve w brewer w cl238405 ulkyvx louisville edu ude
ebosco us oracle com \( eric bosco \) subject windows 3 1 keeps crashing please help nntp posting host monica us oracle com reply ebosco us oracle com organization oracle corp , redwood shores ca x disclaimer message written unauthenticated user oracle corporation opinions expressed user necessarily oracle lines 41 subjects says , windows 3 1 keeps crashing \( gpf \) late never stable package , seems crash every day worst part crash consistently ie ca n't reproduce crashes , always gpf 's application sometimes recover simply closing application caused error , times , windows acts strange , need boot background leading edge 486sx25 phoenix bios first got memory ran windows fine \( many gpf 's \) , couple weekends ago , installed lotus 123 windows \( atm \) , game card additional 4 simms leading edge machine kind strange , ide controler built motherboard , cpu actually board plugs motherboard simms uses macintosh simms ! apparently told leading edge parity bit built mother board original 80ns simms 2 chip variety samsung , ones installed 8 chip simms recognized fine bios ram check game card generic 20 reason mention hardware like sometimes rebooting machine using reset button ctl alt del still leaves machine kind flaky , turning n't n't tried taking ram game card , said gpf gone entire day using computer problems might get 5 gpf 's 20 minutes \? situation annoying good diagnostic tools hardware \? think might software problem \( ie emm386 etc \) \? helps , manage get gpf 's dark , quicken , paint shop pro lot user exe gdi exe help truly appreciated eric ebosco us oracle com
dgf1 ellis uchicago edu \( david farley \) subject permanaent swap file dos 6 0 reply dgf1 midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 35 \( stuff deleted \) may , would really suggest everyone take opportunity go technical workshops n't actually incredibly depth , get lot material bugs optimization straight know besides offer huge discounts software remember correctly , could pick word 2 0 , excel 4 0 , whatever presentation program 130 full blown version , upgrade educational version could also pick microsoft office 500 something like sprang word value workshops aside , ought able buy full copies software campus bookstore software distributor rates i'm aware educational version word excel way well , hope helpful someone besides hope someone go workshop save little money anyone microsoft reading really love products need job graduate also , work something \? \) thanks , brent casavant bcasavan mailhost ecn uoknor edu david farley university chicago library 312 702 3426 1100 east 57th street , jrl 210 dgf1 midway uchicago edu chicago , illinois 60637
mlipsie std com \( mike lipsie mpu \) subject permanent swap file organization mitsubishi electric research laboratories , inc lines 26 article usenet ins cwru edu ak333 cleveland freenet edu \( martin linsenbigler \) writes first setup windows using self load mode grabbed 20 megs swap file space , 120 meg hd nearly empty time deleted windows time recently reloaded , hd nearly full windows took 4 megs one rules permanent swap file must contiguous \( non fragmented \) space suspect responsible difference amount free disk , case read somewhere best rule thumb permanent swap file size regular ram size 4 megs ram windows took 4 meg perm swap file works well fact available hd space , 20 megs wo n't let make swap file bigger change virtual mem swap file 8 megs think said ram depends running increase swap file \( think 20mb \) applications could n't run without everything else closed mike lipsie \( work \) mlipsie ca com mitsubishi electronic research laboratory \( home \) mikel uucp
lam mrcnext cso uiuc edu \( ken lam \) subject wanted address symantec reply lam jove cofc edu organization university illinois urbana lines 27 dewinter prl philips nl \( rob de winter \) writes looking exact address symantec , distributes norton desktop windows software information looking mail address phone number fax number e mail address try postmaster norton com postmaster symantec com thanks advance nothing beats skiing , want real fun holidays rob de winter philips research , ist , building wl 1 p box 80000 , 5600 ja eindhoven netherlands tel 31 40 743621 e mail dewinter prl philips nl ken lam network administrator university charleston dept biology geology c space grant consortium \( 803 \) 792 fax \( 803 \) 792
cl238405 ulkyvx louisville edu \( steve w brewer \) subject make ghostscript work \? organization university louisville apparently gnu ghostscript bug rutgers edu distribution world lines 14 files need download ghostscript 2 5 2 \? never used ghostscript , n't files zip , downloaded cica unfortunately , n't seem work 's , needs files n't want run ghostscript windows 3 1 ms dos 386 pc \( understand 's versions environments \) files need download get \? info would steve w brewer w cl238405 ulkyvx louisville edu ude
wong cs tu berlin de \( wolfgang jung \) subject cirrus logic 5426 graph card organization technical university berlin , germany lines 23 nntp posting host athene cs tu berlin de mime version 1 0 content type text plain charset iso 8859 1 content transfer encoding 8bit x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 setting windows using cirrus logic 5426 vlb moved normal window one place another parameters following 486 dx 33 vlb card equipped 1 mb dram \( vram , 8 sockets vram \) moving window looked like looked friends 386dx 25 \( \) normal isa et4000 wondering using bitblt engine chip experiences done something wrong \? \( installed 3 1 drivers supplied card \? ! \) would nice somebody could tell experience card also new \( hopefully faster \) around would love get hold \) \( ftp whatsoever \) \) wolfgang
rjn teal csn org \( robert j niland \) subject procomm plus windows problems nntp posting host teal csn org organization colorado supernet , inc x newsreader tin 1 1 pl4 lines 292 kentiler matt ksu ksu edu \( kent p iler \) writes normal procomm plus dos , 've considering buying windows version got really great reviews computer shopper friend connects mainframe unix machines using , screen seems problem keeping modem 14 , 400 modem 486 50 mhz machine ca n't see trouble keeping pcplus dos works great , high speed modem arrives edition 01 apr 93 article applies windows 3 0 3 1 , nt , os 2 dos apps running windows one limitations current windows pcs rs \( serial , com \) performance seriously deficient almost everyone purchases high speed modem \( v 32bis , v 32 , pep hst \) discovers problem first time try download file accept incoming fax \( 9600 \) upgrading modem overrun retry errors abound , even active application datacomm fax program transfer completes , may take even longer old 2400bps modem three reasons problem 1 universal asynchronous receiver transmitters \( uarts \) used pcs primitive devices single byte fifo buffers operating system driver cannot read flush character high interrupt rates , next incoming character fifo previous one lost dos , fairly single minded environment datacomm , usually keep windows ca n't 2 windows operating system overhead plain dos , interrupts often take longer service overruns much likely dos soon report pc modem vendor losing data , may advised need upgrade 16550 likely , since seems conspiracy ignorance issue , 'll get useful advice store front mail order sources spoke attempting solve problem never heard term 16550 many n't even know uart 3 even pc uarts \( ps 2 's \) , upgrade mother com board add new com board , may still experience errors overruns standard microsoft windows com drivers n't take full advantage 16550 windows 3 1 improved regard 3 0 , still recommend driver upgrade applications like procomm win \( use \) cannot get around problem modem card , may problem , modem part card designed aware state uart , avoid however , would n't want bet card designers clever , insist 16550 uart ever buy modem card modem cards n't even conventional uarts , work standard windows drivers , need simulate one use msd exe \( \) see modem card , pretending hardware situation uarts pc com ports based national semiconductor chips \( inside vlsi chips ca n't replace \) id uart type system running microsoft diagnostic program windows msd exe sure run dos bringing windows windows serial api may prevent msd accurately identifying 16550 run windows dos prompt uart separate 16 byte transmit receive configurable trigger levels , run reliably clock rates 460 , 800 bps , although current modem technology , 's point pushing luck going 115 , 200 bps 16550 shorted access cycle times 16450 8250 16550 also dma capability , clear pc drivers ever use technical info , see national semiconductor application note 491 , uart component \? try locate uart mother board , multi function card , com board isa mca modem card ca n't find socketed component numbers 8250 16450 , com ports probably buried vlsi , wo n't able perform chip replacement disable vlsi com ports \( chose \) , least add aftermarket com board one socketed 8250 16450 chips , buy plug \( low power cmos version \) ics several suppliers typically 9 15 n chip normal 40 pin dual line package styles available , avoid chips without \( presumably ok \) early ns chips bugs , although national reportedly exchange manufacture free clone chips available various ic makers national manual turbocom drivers states support following \( apparently equivalent \) chips national semiconductor 16550a , , chips technology texas instruments silicon systems vlsi turbocom warns pre western digital , says problems reported early ibm ps 2 70 systems \( ibm reportedly upgrade \) socketed 8250 16450 chips , 'll need buy market com multi function board modem card situation , may hosed add new com multi function card , 'll need either disable com1 2 port \( \) replacing , assign com3 4 \( although watch irq conflicts without turbocom \) although cheaper cards available , interest getting problem solved quickly elected buy modular circuit technology mct aio card jdr samaritan drive san jose ca \( 800 \) 538 5000 voice us \( 408 \) 559 1200 voice \( 800 \) 538 fax us mct aio \( important \) sells 89 95 8 bit isa card providing port type connector address irq comments com com 1 , 2 , 3 irq 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 socket com ribbon com 2 , 3 , 4 irq 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 socket parallel lpt1 , 2 , 3 irq 5 , 7 game ribbon kit includes ribbon cable connector secondary com port , ribbon cable connector game port , two plates ribbon based connectors 9f adaptor cable port individually disabled , com ports tx , rx , rts , cts , dtr , dcd , dsr jumpers jdr also sells super f card also ide heard several people less expensive f cards tsd systems \( 407 \) 331 19 95 card , plus 9 95 per 16550 greenfield trading distributors \( 518 \) 271 \( voice \) , \( 518 \) 271 \( fax \) card 33 w one 16550 , 45 w 2 , sell 13 r data systems , inc 820 east highway 434 , fl phone \( 407 \) 331 1424 fax \( 407 \) 331 lpt game card w 2 39 personal experience firms except jdr meanwhile , back mct card jdr needed two serial ports , running irqs pc , disabled built vlsi based 8250 ports however , turbocom driver \( \) , could set internals com3 4 , using irq sharing software situation simply upgrading 16550 uarts completely solve common overrun problems standard ms serial drivers n't take full advantage 16550 windows 3 0 drivers even less capable , windows 3 1 drivers following limitations enable receive fifo , rates 2400 bps never enable transmit fifo , results interrupt rate 10x uploads set trigger level 14 bytes \( high 's easy 2 bytes arrive driver read fifo \) ports menu control panel allows speeds v 32bis modem , sparse data text easily compress 3 1 , suggesting host dte connect rate 57 , 600 bps would effective api wo n't accept rates cbr api wo n't let dos programs know 16550 , even , dos programs n't 16550 aware get little benefit 16550 port standard drivers n't allow irq sharing com3 , 4 bios n't initialize com3 , 4 properly many systems windows provides workaround apps n't provide port speed options bps problems reportedly solved windows nt dos 6 0 , may may addressed windows releases 3 1 \( 4 0 \) rumors suggest may solved windows 4 0 get replacement drivers solve problems buying copy turbocom , current version 1 2 , bio engineering research pacific division 180 beacon hill lane \( 503 \) 482 voice \( 503 \) 482 fax \( 503 \) 482 bbs mcimail 344 compuserve , 760 price around 50 recall bio eng set accept credit cards , send check 1 800 software list turbocom far know , n't stock bio software company per se apparently needed reliable hi speed serial connections house instrument application , wrote driver , discovered market , revised general purpose com driver suite recently upgraded windows 3 1 run time licensed host \( dte \) connect rate set 57 , 600 bps datacomm apps , zero problems downloads routinely see transfer rates exceed 2 , 000 bps also using 115 , 200 bps linking pc , lossless bi directional uploads various remote systems another matter , many hosts still using antique uarts drivers note still highest rate windows 3 1 port menu control panel allow configuring com port turbocom gets around allowing specify , port , factor set real uart rate multiple rate passed windows dialog boxes also cts rts hardware flow control enabled , suggest even ever transfer 7 bit ascii data , xon xoff sufficiently reliable method flow control informal \( dec \) standard xon xoff sender may transmit another 16 \( yes , sixteen \) bytes receipt xoff receiving system device 16 byte fifo 16550 clearly big enough let us rely exclusively xon xoff well respected datacomm engineer informed 16550 's ca n't really cts rts dos windows environment , using data rates 115 , 200 may still risky even hardware flow control , 16550 turbocom still experience overruns busy systems , lots apps running serious swapping progress situation , may need buy co processed com board , cost 16550 turbocom upgrade review two boards , review turbocom , found issue windows sources magazine suggest trying 16550 turbocom upgrade first , experiment process priorities time slices power user whose thrashing system still runs comm problems closing soapbox comments state rs serial datacomm support embarrassment across computer industry oldest standard interface , job designing hardware writing software often seems assigned least senior lowest ranked engineers computer companies design average serial port least ten years behind state art last job , major workstation vendor , lobbied improved serial ports initial designs new system family machines subsequently introduced 16550 ports however , exception computer companies seem champions decent may well learn serial , situation shows sign improving soon v fast arrives , expect cries outrage windows users world wide whose 8250 pcs sort work today v 32 , fail miserably v fast without hardware buffered uart \( like 16550 \) without software drivers use uart best advantage , v fast modem waste money regards , 1001 east harmony road bob niland suite 503 internet rjn csn org fort collins co 80525 compuserve , \( 303 \) 223 copyright 1993 robert j niland rights reserved permission granted automatic redistribution article , via electronic , magnetic optical media , form , usenet newsgroup article posted author permission granted compuserve usenet reader subscriber person received article compuserve , ftp site authorized author via electronic mail author , retain one electronic copy make hardcopy edition article personal non commercial use , provided material changes made article copyright statement copying , storage , reproduction redistribution article , form , prohibited without express written consent author , robert j niland eof
hal gnu ai mit edu \( eugene kuo \) subject updated canon bj 200 driver organization dis lines 7 distribution world nntp posting host hal ai mit edu hi anyone tell get copy updated canon bj 200 printer driver windows 3 1 , \? ver 1 0 comes bj 200 printer , wonder newer version thanks much , please email
gdr bath ac uk \( g hunt \) subject windows workgroups lan workplace organization school architecture , university bath , uk lines 19 may simple question number pc 's use link mainframe using novell lan workplace dos \( via windows 3 1 \) , make life easier us thinking using windows workgroups allow file sharing across pc network anyone know possible use w4wg lan workplace dos time ie access file another pc logged mainframe time , simultaneously help well appreciated gary hunt centre advanced studies architecture university bath gdr bath ac uk
2a42dubinski vms csd mu edu subject word 2 0 help ! organization marquette university computer services lines 17 reply 2a42dubinski vms csd mu edu nntp posting host csd mu edu article msuinfo cl msu edu , horus cem msu edu \( greg cook \) writes article vms csd mu edu , 2a42dubinski vms csd mu edu anyone tell printed spanish characters \? know wp 5 1 built , recall ever seeing option wfw2 help ! try using extended character set \( alt sequences \) look character map accessories group see alt sequence font want ! thanks , think 've figured robert aliases include robb , regal , sir , mr , marquette university math computer science double major internet address 2a42dubinski vms csd mu edu milwaukee , wi
2a42dubinski vms csd mu edu subject change licensed data windows 3 1 \? organization marquette university computer services lines 12 reply 2a42dubinski vms csd mu edu nntp posting host csd mu edu ok , info licensing kept \? file \? organization box put address , moved , wanted change , could n't find could find name , organization robert aliases include robb , regal , sir , mr , marquette university math computer science double major internet address 2a42dubinski vms csd mu edu milwaukee , wi
rmohns vax clarku edu subject page setup notepad organization clark university lines 29 previous article , joel jach hawaii edu \( joel \) wrote struggled margin problem ages well , finally got hold shareware binary editor , dug notepad exe \( setup facility force notepad default 0 0 margins 's hardwired code ! ! ! \) search 75 , change offending bytes 00 , et viola guys options anyway \? i'm interested whether problem rears 's ugly head certain printers i'm using old epson lx 800 \( ex 800 \? never remember \) aloha alone get problems panasonic \( 24 pin \) , 's great printer ca n't find driver , non version anyone seen \? rob rmohns vax clarku edu rob mohns annoy rush limbaugh think
rmohns vax clarku edu subject need windows logo organization clark university lines 46 previous article , wrote article access digex net , holland access digex com \( brian holland \) writes markus maier \( maier rz uni ulm de \) wrote hi , well i'm searching ms windows logo , u know picture u start windows , suitable format , like gif jpg , c windows system vgalogo rle memory serves correctly , rle compressed bmp format readable wingif , paintshop pro , paint , god knows many programs n't enough change windows startup logo vgalogo rle needed installed windows incorporated part win com make new win com , three files together , using b option binary beleive copy b win cnf vgalogo lgo vgalogo rle com make sure backup win com file directory absent typed win com instead com windows ! anyway , substitute whatever rle file want win cnf info needed start windows \( think \) vgalogo vga video information make sure rle file n't tip whole com file size 64k limit com file ! anyway , use com startup ms windows instead annoying micro oft , \( yes , batman \) taking picture screen , saying smile ! also little bit text micro oft windows world 's first commercially sucessful virus added frequency crashes grin rob post rob mohns rmohns water , vax clarku edu drowned sand
xenon stanford edu \( eugene kuo \) subject updated canon bj 200 driver \? organization computer science department , stanford university lines 8 hi anyone tell get copy updated canon bj 200 printer driver windows 3 1 , \? ver 1 0 comes bj 200 printer , wonder newer version thanks much , please email
uclink berkeley edu \( bret \) subject good sound formats conversion program \? \? organization university california , berkeley lines 34 nntp posting host uclink berkeley edu article cc monash edu au cc monash edu au \( li \) writes hi , anyone know good sound formats conversion program \? \? \? \( like picture formats conversion \) please send copy reply ! ! ! thanks lot bel hi best sound conversion program 've ever seen , shareware germany found copy somewhere wuarchive wustl edu long time ago , n't know offhand directory 's great converting files types , including mac , next , sun , various pc formats 's also great player editor , various special effects put windows' sound recorder shame requires driver various sound cards builtin one pc speaker \( even sounds pretty good \) , 're using convert things , convert play sound recorder give try ! bret , 's second soda berkeley edu biggest monkey head 've ocf berkeley edu ever seen ! uclink berkeley edu
mhembruc tsegw tse com \( mattias hembruch \) subject change licensed data windows 3 1 \? organization toronto stock exchange lines 35 rmohns vax clarku edu writes relation question concerning changing registered information ms windows previous article , 2a42dubinski vms csd mu edu wrote ahh , yes , fun topic , name incribed disk , , encoded even hex editor find write licensed , ca n't change name underneth find hex editor , although tried overwrite sure ca n't \? may mistaken \( \? \? \? \) rob rmohns vax clarku edu similar note , anyone found way ms foxpro windows \? setup ini file modified disk 1 \( encrypted \) well , course forgot microsoft 's stupid arrangement got software , used name \( paid company i'm consulting job done , 's software \) ideas start dumb things copy file \? \? mattias ps n't want pirate software want avoid buy new copy order change registration information copy lying around n't use maybe get new disk 1 mattias hembruch views necessarily reflect tse e mail mhembruc tse com
tamu edu \( chris \) subject procomm plus windows problems organization texas university , college station , tx lines 25 nntp posting host tamu edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 jeff meyers \( ecst csuchico edu \) wrote article matt ksu ksu edu kentiler matt ksu ksu edu \( kent p iler \) writes friend connects mainframe unix machines using procomm plus windows , screen seems problem keeping modem 14 , 400 modem 486 50 mhz machine tell probably needs upgrade faster video card ! 9600 baud modem one reasons sought diamond speedstar 24x get 7 million winmarks 386 25 keeps modem speed \( using procomm plus windows , \) get 10 million machine card anything 10 yield acceptable speed i'm using pc plus home trusty old nec 386 sx 20 14 , 400 baud modem problems , however , running straight 16 color vga christopher internet tamu edu philosophy , texas university phone \( 409 \) 845 college station , tx fax \( 409 \) 845
unixg ubc ca \( derek k miller \) subject microsoft mail workgroups via 9600 modem \? organization university british columbia , vancouver , b c , canada lines 25 distribution world nntp posting host unixg ubc ca student association runs small novell network windows workgroups microsoft mail director finance , en electrical engineering student , would like gateway system , either via slip , university 's network thus internet , least exchange e mail , possibly also ftp 's etc , would done via 9600 bps modem would like set would periodically call check mail , would otherwise connect whenever needed best way \? software available , works best \? please reply unixg ubc ca f ee ubc ca cc n't read groups regularly , mail best common question , please pot faq ftp site derek k miller unixg ubc ca researcher , mater society tz ucs sfu ca university british columbia , canada room sub blvd , vancouver , b c v6t campus mail zone 1 phone \( 604 \) 822 fax \( 604 \) 822
reimert etdesg trw com \( scott p reimert \) subject win nt \? \? \? organization trw inc , redondo beach , ca lines 14 somewhere thread , said windows nt \( tm \) multi user os , well multi threading , etc certainly n't seen case seperate accounts person , even seperate directories desired n't see use though scott scott reimert reimert etdesg trw com standard disclaimer redondo beach , ca blah blah blah always store beer cool dark place
downs helios nevada edu \( lamont downs \) subject windows 3 1 keeps crashing please help lines 18 nntp posting host cat lv lib nevada edu organization unlv article 1993apr16 oracle us oracle com ebosco us oracle com \( eric bosco \) writes ebosco us oracle com \( eric bosco \) subject windows 3 1 keeps crashing please help date fri , 16 apr 1993 15 56 37 gmt subjects says , windows 3 1 keeps crashing \( gpf \) late never stable package , seems crash every day worst part crash consistently ie tried setting files config sys file fairly high number \? \( 've got mine set 100 've seen numbers 40 100 recommended \) also check stacks statement , stacks 9 , 256 good starting point try increasing 's already set \( stacks 12 , 256 , etc \) stacks files identified one cause frequent win3 1 crashes lamont downs downs nevada edu
binah cc brandeis edu subject diamond ss24x , win 3 1 , mouse cursor reply binah cc brandeis edu organization brandeis university lines 27 article 1993apr16 nlm nih gov , dabl2 nlm nih gov \( b lindbergh \) writes article 1993apr15 204845 24939 nlm nih gov dabl2 nlm nih gov \( b lindbergh \) writes anybody seen mouse cursor distortion running diamond 1024x768x256 driver \? sorry , n't know version driver \( indication menus \) 's recently delivered gateway system going try latest drivers diamond bbs wondered anyone else seen followup , co worker 's machine latest 2 03 drivers happens using 1024x768x256 driver sometimes takes minute cursor wig , eventually mode something stepping memory video card wants excluded a000 c7ff emm386 line system ini problem persisted perhaps something specific gateway machine 's components 66mhz dx 2 eisa bus \( \? \) controller ah well , hoping kind problem' somebody seen perhaps call gateway order , find folks usually far know lindbergh dabl2 nlm nih gov n't seen particular problem , another place might check bios video shadowing diamond wants turned might cause memory conflict well good luck hope helps , chris , brandeis u
rene hardy u washington edu \( rene \) subject win nt \? \? \? article shelley organization university washington lines 30 nntp posting host hardy u washington edu wild access digex com \( wildstrom \) writes rmohns vax clarku edu writes chicogo want use , like nt , true os multitasking multithreading , much smaller hardware requirements , meet dod security specs \( 's okay since probably client os \) differences , main ones article chicogo pc week last august chicogo nt development groups micro oft intense competition , said however , think different relationship arise nt server \( n \) , chicogo client machine entirely possible different os 's work together , partly chicogo small nt \( think way , anyway \) \( novell netware creates os server truly dos , n't scorn concept \) anyway , n't expect soon windows 4 dos 7 supposed released next year \( read see 95 \) , expect chicogo wo n't til '96 chicago differ \( sort \) announced windows 4 understand ing , least windows 4 's sort nt lite full fledged operating system lacking server security features make nt bear w4 true multithreading \? anyone tell chicago windows 4 would differ os 2 2 x \? believe , i'm trying start flame war , i'm simply curious going feature advantage either products \( consider fact uncle bills seal approval much feature \)
saz hook corp mot com \( scott zabolotzky \) subject gif bmp organization motorola , inc distribution usa nntp posting host 129 188 122 164 lines 12 anybody idea could find program convert gif image bmp image suitable windows wallpaper \( e 256 colors \) hopefully 's something get ftp site somewhere thanks advance scott
bishop baeyer chem fsu edu \( greg bishop \) subject diamond ss24x , win 3 1 , mouse cursor organization physics department , fsu news software vax vms vnews reply bishop baeyer chem fsu edu lines 26 article 1993apr15 204845 24939 nlm nih gov dabl2 nlm nih gov \( b lindbergh \) writes anybody seen mouse cursor distortion running diamond 1024x768x256 driver \? sorry , n't know version driver \( indication menus \) 's recently delivered gateway system going try latest drivers diamond bbs wondered anyone else seen followup , co worker 's machine latest 2 03 drivers happens using 1024x768x256 driver sometimes takes minute cursor wig , eventually mode something stepping memory video card wants excluded a000 c7ff emm386 line system ini problem persisted perhaps something specific gateway machine 's components 66mhz dx 2 eisa bus \( \? \) controller ah well , hoping kind problem' somebody seen perhaps call gateway order , find folks usually far know use diamond speedstar 24x 1024x768x256 mode time found distortions cursor cursor little jumpy time time \( due 32 bit access swap file \) , never distorted greg bishop \( bishop baeyer chem fsu edu \)
subject windows workgroups lan workplace flint waters uwyo edu \( flint waters \) distribution comp os ms windows apps , comp os ms windows misc , comp os ms , world organization university wyoming nntp posting host sheriff uwyo edu lines 13 anyone know possible use w4wg lan workplace dos time ie access file another pc logged mainframe time , simultaneously yup 're using work fine hopefully , someday wfwg communicate lwp tcpip right load netbeui use odi works well
mitchell ncc telecomwa oz au \( clive mitchell \) subject printing correctly organization regional network systems group , perth lines 951 cut part 01 01 begin 644 exe 1d , p \? 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' 08 5 ! ! ! 9 \( \) v 28 n' 0j 4 sq 8 9 s8 v 0 ! ap mq \) \) y1 \( g 0h ! \? h 01 0 9 ! l7 , o2 \) l l3 mm ' 3 ! c ! q0 op \( 1 ln v' wh \( z 83 \? mn \? \) l ! h ! 1y qg 9 0y , r \( f4 0 4 eb q bd \) tp \( q g \) u 10 ! \) ' , p b h \( 3 tj , , \( dy xf bd , 9 f ! '0 , 0a \( lk m4 \( b 3 qh , , \( , era i2 ! 0 4 mb 3 ! 5f \( \( \( ! n , h3 , \( k 'q t7 , w 2i \( m1 9 3 \( \? \( ox 4 l ! h 8 dh 6p wn ! p ! 0 q0 l q 4c r c ! 4 l ! h 8 0 ! ej er , 8 l b3 ! \) \) 4 \) 64 l ! h p 0 w x ! 35 5 50 de 1e ! ! 08 p p p end cut clive mitchell ph 61 9 regional network systems mitchell telecomwa oz au perth , western australia v
mitchell ncc telecomwa oz au \( clive mitchell \) subject printing correctly organization regional network systems group , perth lines 9 apology advance posting binary newsgroup 've several attempts mail original poster 's getting intact clive mitchell ph 61 9 regional network systems mitchell telecomwa oz au perth , western australia v
rastek com \( donald owen \) subject atm 4 pricing organization rastek corporation , huntsville , al lines 41 many ps clones count , quite poor , trying clone something goes regular modifications require patience three questions come mid real quick something like q version adobe ps clone \? aside level 1 level 2 issues , adobe past released new code incorporates modifications upgrades fixes software vendors level 2 stuff may seem sound , assure , changes become frequent customer list begins face competition allows shift people maintenance , well design efforts level 3 q duplicate bugs , make work correctly \? laserwriter laserjet 4 bugs \( number call hp adobe , heard \) deciding approach take depends printer want emulate q follow red book , follow someone 's implementation \? without doubt , differences red book adobe 's ps level 2 many issues refined red book leave big , big holes implementation specific stuff would nice red least things enough two different implementations adobe 's ps n't exact opposite given identical set conditions q drv \? done lot ps clone testing , unfortunate side testing limited number sources test files primary source use genoa characterizes 1992 ps files , \( 1300 \) half taken drv may ideal , files printer vendors use i'm sure adobe uses , adobe 's output definition correct , even wrong yes , poor clones 've seen rastek \( sub clone called \) poor lack design , poor followed red book , poor vendors n't know ps rastek com
huot cray com \( tom huot \) subject procomm plus windows problems lines 24 nntp posting host pittpa cray com organization cray research inc x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 robert j niland \( rjn teal csn org \) wrote much text deleted heard several people less expensive f cards tsd systems \( 407 \) 331 19 95 card , plus 9 95 per 16550 vouch one ordered got 34 including h took awhile figure get working system , since , get terrific results downloading using pcplus windows used get errors started program downloading high speed anymore text deleted tom huot huot cray com
rwang gmuvax2 gmu edu \( john wang \) subject cool bmp files \? \? distribution usa organization george mason university , fairfax , virginia , usa lines 13 hi , everybody guess subject said getting boring looking old bmp files came windows , wondering body beautiful bmp file share maybe somebody tell ftp site bmp files , like scenery files , animals files , etc used , unfortunately delete anyway could give help , please \? \? \? thanks lot ! john
carlf panix com \( carl fink \) subject panasonic kx driver \? organization panix public access unix , nyc lines 13 1993apr16 netnews noc drexel edu dunx1 ocs drexel edu \( mike \) writes anyone know print drivers windows panasonic kx 9 pin dot matrix printer \? 've told panasonic uploaded compu erve , n't cis account use epson fx 80 driver , comes pretty \( slowly \) carl fink carlf panix com , c \( genie \) , bitnet facts stubborn things whatever may wishes , , dictates passions , cannot alter state facts evidence john adams
wynapse indirect com \( dave campbell wynapse \) subject gif bmp distribution usa organization internet direct inc \( 602 \) 274 0100 lines 28 saz hook corp mot com \( scott zabolotzky \) writes anybody idea could find program convert gif image bmp image suitable windows wallpaper \( e 256 colors \) hopefully 's something get ftp site somewhere thanks advance scott scott look ftp cica indiana edu zip embed release number name , i'm sure lates graphics workshop dos windows version work great even someone bring images amiga , converted great looking wallpaper 256 color bmp files ca n't find , repost , let know , 'll dig archive dave dave campbell wynapse wynapse wynapse indirect com shareware custom control source
kudla acm rpi edu \( robert kudla \) subject change licensed data windows 3 1 \? nntp posting host hermes acm rpi edu lines 65 vms csd mu edu 2a42dubinski vms csd mu edu writes ahh , yes , fun topic , name incribed disk , , encoded even hex editor find disk compare utility \( old versus new \) windows 3 1 also flexible enough install time copy files onto hard disk , greatly speeds things makes less annoying , spare 7 compressed megs write licensed , ca n't change name underneth think wish change would pirate , 're going promote , 're 're also going promote corporate paranoia real issue convenience n't like dealing floppies personally , use changing registration info , see valid need , one ought solved using quick little utility rather half hour reinstall 's guaranteed mess settings one way another , i'm going put much time , 's procedure getting way finding encoded information 1 copy windows disks directory want install 've using c 2 , copy directory something like c 3 install c 4 comp two directories determine changes e , comp report txt 5 look report file file \( \) change assuming n't cover covering tracks , least one file difference noted particular offset locate said offset original directory see 's using hex editor , modified one 6 're far breaking code goes n't really cryptography 's probably xor key something think ms concerned joe schmoe office copy real pirates probably disassemble damned thing anyway technique work obnoxious corporate product tries write original floppies install extreme cases may able back floppies hard disk , stuck compare floppies \( lotus stuff probably like \) noted , afford space hard disk , n't much way customization , reinstalling one directory another may less stuff 've mentioned may well void license microsoft , 'd ever find n't careful disk editor , could also something important duh guess 's disclaimer rob rob kudla acm rpi edu keywords jane 's leather yes win3 1 light blue right bondage r e dtp dan owl genesis spaceship , silver spaceship , lion takes control
kudla acm rpi edu \( robert kudla \) subject diamond ss24x , win 3 1 , mouse cursor nntp posting host hermes acm rpi edu lines 16 1993apr15 204845 24939 nlm nih gov dabl2 nlm nih gov \( b lindbergh \) writes anybody seen mouse cursor distortion running diamond 1024x768x256 driver \? sorry , n't know version driver \( indication menus \) 's recently delivered gateway system going try latest drivers diamond bbs wondered anyone else seen , yes seems flicker , change shape snow briefly enough impair functionality , call attention diamond 's professional sloppiness rob rob kudla acm rpi edu keywords jane 's leather yes win3 1 light blue right bondage r e dtp dan owl genesis spaceship , silver spaceship , lion takes control
shiva leland stanford edu \( matt jacobson \) subject ndw norton desktop windows organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa lines 19 ibm run windows 3 1 friend installed norton desktop windows top loads automatically type win , surely adds \( already slow \) process starting would like know stop uninstall program ! ! taken win ini , still pops running windows big search found reference ndw ini , system ini progman ini removing causes failure starting windows \( ini group 7 ndw exe ca n't deleted \) anyone familiar ndw tell turn \? \? thanks ! chet please email responses ca n't read news home account uct ac za
avinash silver lcs mit edu \( avinash chopde \) subject truetype fonts display print organization mit laboratory computer science distribution na lines 18 installed new truetype font ms windows 3 1 though applications display font correctly screen , quite fail print document correctly \( laserjet 4 non postscript printer \) use font coreldraw , document prints correctly , assume coreldraw knows font downloaded printer use windows accessory write , printer prints square boxes place characters new font yet , write display font correctly screen looked windows laserjet manuals , got nowhere make statement truetype fonts print exactly see screen assume windows knows font downloaded automatically , make \? \? \? \? appreciate help
dmittleman bpa arizona edu \( daniel mittleman \) subject ndw norton desktop windows organization university arizona mis department lines 16 distribution world nntp posting host bpa arizona edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article 1993apr17 leland stanford edu , shiva leland stanford edu \( matt jacobson \) writes ibm run windows 3 1 friend installed norton desktop windows top loads automatically type win , surely adds \( already slow \) process starting would like know stop uninstall program ! ! anyone familiar ndw tell turn \? \? 1 get friend uninstall 2 read manual \( though post infer using pirated software \) 3 go sys ini change shell line read shell progman exe daniel david mittleman danny arizona edu \( 602 \) 621
subject cirrus logic 5426 graph card gardner kosmos wcc govt nz \( andy gardner \) reply gardner kosmos wcc govt nz organization wellington city council \( public access \) , , nz nntp posting host kosmos wcc govt nz lines 37 article news cs tu berlin de , wong cs tu berlin de \( wolfgang jung \) writes setting windows using cirrus logic 5426 vlb moved normal window one place another wondering using bitblt engine chip experiences done something wrong \? 5426 set drivers may using drivers intended 5420 mistake sure 5426 driver version 1 2 \( installed 3 1 drivers supplied card \? ! \) n't quote one , 'd steer clear multi resolution driver allows change resolution without exiting windows think 's buggy also new \( hopefully faster \) around would love get hold \) \( ftp whatsoever \) \) version 1 3 drivers due release cirrus soon unfortunately , available via ftp , dial bbs usa nz using 14 4k modem cut phone bills took around 7 minutes download v1 2 driver good luck , andy gardner , wellington , new zealand te nui ,
gay sfu ca \( ian gay \) subject change licensed data windows 3 1 \? organization simon fraser university , burnaby , b c , canada lines 10 kudla acm rpi edu \( robert kudla \) writes stuff changing windows registration omitted damned thing anyway technique work obnoxious corporate product tries write original floppies install extreme cases may able huh \? \? \? copy win 3 1 came permanently write protected diskettes \( sliding tabs \)
crux3 cit cornell edu \( r craig stevenson \) subject w4w printing envelops \( 500c ! \) nntp posting host crux3 cit cornell edu organization cornell university lines 19 've got printing envelops deskjet word windows history deskjet 500 , modify macro would disable reverse printing since seemed bug printing envelops bug still present , however problem deskjet 550 print driver \( came printer bought december \) still wants print envelops portrait mode however , deskjet 550 feeds envelops narrow end \( e landscape mode \) get printer print envelops correct orientation \? please please please post net since \( \) due end semester , ca n't keep groups , \( b \) summarize best answer \( \) net anyhow ! thanks advance , craig stevenson
kris circ upenn edu \( kris gupta \) subject ndw norton desktop windows reply kris circ upenn edu organization imaging research center lines 20 nntp posting host circ upenn edu article leland stanford edu , shiva leland stanford edu \( matt jacobson \) writes taken win ini , still pops running windows big search found reference ndw ini , system ini progman ini removing causes failure starting windows \( ini group 7 ndw exe ca n't deleted \) anyone familiar ndw tell turn \? \? one items group folder \( typically called norton desktop applications \) labelled norton desktop uninstall need say ! kris b gupta imaging research center dept radiology hospital u pennsylvania internet kris circ upenn edu
trentu ca \( stefan powell \) subject cool background patterns ! news software vax vms vnews 1 41 organization trent computing telecommunications department lines 16 cool 3 background patterns made edit control ini add following lines patterns section bricks 148 43 86 172 89 182 99 201 tile 1 43 85 43 85 43 85 255 tile \( diagonal \) 148 107 54 156 73 182 99 201 0 170 85 170 85 170 85 255 make sure desktop color one standard 16 colors patterns might work like dark grey best cool one 's , please mail stefan powell trentu ca peterborough , ontario , canada
neff123 garnet berkeley edu \( stephen kearney \) subject ndw norton desktop windows organization university california , berkeley lines 7 nntp posting host garnet berkeley edu \( ndw \) would like know stop uninstall program ! ! uninstall icon n't exist norton desktop apps group run ndw 's install program u
rnichols cbnewsg cb att com \( robert k nichols \) subject truetype fonts display print summary adjust organization distribution na lines 30 article 1993apr17 mintaka lcs mit edu avinash silver lcs mit edu \( avinash chopde \) writes installed new truetype font ms windows 3 1 though applications display font correctly screen , quite fail print document correctly \( laserjet 4 non postscript printer \) use windows accessory write , printer prints square boxes place characters new font yet , write display font correctly screen common problem highly complex truetype fonts microsoft admits problem older versions postscript printer driver , 've found pretty generic get around problem adjusting parameter truetype section win ini entry specifies number per em windows render truetype fonts outline fonts instead bitmap fonts default 256 've generally able get fonts work setting 160 depending printer resolution point size using , may need different value windows resource kit warns going 300 presumably , might cause fonts print square boxes something \( i'm smiling \) bob nichols bell laboratories rnichols ihlpm ih att com
tomh metrics com \( tom haapanen \) subject hercules graphite \? organization software metrics inc lines 56 tomh metrics com \( tom haapanen \) writes anyone used hercules graphite adapter \? looks good paper , steve gibson gave good review infoworld 'd love get real world impression , though speed \? drivers \? support \? ntaib silver ucs indiana edu \( iskandar taib \) writes pc world reviewers found herc people hard coded winbench text driver clever , \? case , winbench results pretty much inflated two things annoyed pc magazine review 1 technique seriously flawed , clearly shown graphite 's cheating ca n't admit benchmark easy optimize cheat \? wintach much harder beat 2 big cheat hercules iit used polyline optimization , hercules sent new driver n't produced almost identical scores yet , thing pc magazine says scores legitimate could n't least make comment real world performance \? i'm much going winbench performance , , rather , steve gibson 's results , real world based \( like using micrografx draw benchmark \) believe gibson , \) writes despite documented cheats , say real world applications hercules graphite adapter actually draws faster display adapter industry even though 's modest isa bus card , every local bus adapter , including stealth 24 vlb , fahrenheit vlb , ati vlb mach32 even weitek p9000 based diamond viper vlb kind praise enough interested , bogus winbench ! \) get one send mail might buy ati gu 9 \) already returned ati gu dealer sold eight , seven returned i'm \( temporarily \) back running original ati gu , get graphite , yes , gu faster 16 mb system gu , especially bitmap handling \( 's use \) hercules promotion available vars software developers buy one graphite graphite vlb 50 list try 199 graphite 249 vlb version decided worth trying \( i'm supposed get vlb board within two weeks \) 'll post impressions get tom haapanen tomh metrics com software metrics inc waterloo , ont stick index fingers corners mouth pull 's corrado makes feel car , january '93
carlos carlos jpr com \( carlos dominguez \) subject change licensed data windows 3 1 \? reply carlos carlos jpr com organization helldiver usenet node , brooklyn , new york , usa lines 17 x newsreader helldiver 1 07 \( waffle 1 64 \) 1993apr15 trintex uucp charles tinman dev prodigy com \( \) writes tried installing software \? otherwise would dubious simple ways change screen designed embarassment would pirates \? prodigy going open doors accept internet mail eh \? obviously post news , mail go well carlos dominguez sysadmin \) carlos carlos jpr com \( \( \( \( carlos carlos uucp carlos ! carlos \( bang \)
subject smartdrv double buffer \? miavx1 acs muohio edu organization miami university academic computer service lines 9 curious double buffer parameter smartdrv actually \? seem less problems windows leave using ps 2 esdi drive , also ps 2 scsi response welcome peter sweeney miavx1 acs muohio edu
cis uab edu \( 's \) subject winhelp exe virus \? organization cis , univ alabama birmingham lines 15 anyone familiar virus winhelp exe file \? recently noticed unusual system behavior ran norton antivirus windows indicated possible unknown virus winhelp exe file directories neither file changed since installed os 2 system january far know information possible virus suggestions remedies would greatly appreciated cis uab edu
psych toronto edu \( \) subject amipro demo files cica organization department psychology , university toronto distribution na lines 18 hello question demo files amipro v3 uploaded cica downloaded install however , n't work addition , altered eliminated dll file reinstall norton desktop anything know install eventually ask lotus send working model \( heard \) \? want see look feel buying pointer would greatly appreciated thank psych toronto edu
ns1 cc lehigh edu \( olcay \) subject postscript view dos windows \? organization lehigh university lines 21 find ms windows version ghostscript \? thanks article hjstein sunrise huji ac il , hjstein sunrise huji ac l \( harvey j stein \) writes 've using version 2 5 2 ghostscript , i'm quite satisfied , actually , 3 versions plain dos version , 386 version , windows version harvey stein hjstein math huji ac il 0
compstat wharton upenn edu \( hao zhang \) subject x emulator organization university pennsylvania lines 12 nntp posting host compstat wharton upenn edu posting another news group read ago said pc xview pc xremote allow use xterm call ncd 503 641 2200 info hope helps , hao hao zhang , dept stat , wharton school , univ penn wharton upenn edu compstat wharton upenn edu
narlochn kirk msoe edu subject last distribution usa organization milwaukee school engineering , milwaukee , wi usa lines 20 two questions 1 \) troubles wordperfect windows try select change fonts , etc text disappears tried center two lines , second line disappeared find error , know correct 2 \) right newsgroup \? go \? e mail prefered else still waiting naked gun part \( pi \) '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' ' '' '' '' ' edu '' '' '' ' '' ' \( \) ' '' '' ' narlochn kirk msoe edu ' '' '' '' '' , wi '' ' team '' '' ' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '
ssa unity ncsu edu \( alavi \) subject \? \? dos font size windows \? \? organization nc state university lines 13 8514 card , using windows 1024x768 mode \( normal 8514 font , small \) 386 enhanced mode dos window font small 14 monitor way font size dos window \? 'll excuse trivial answer , since fairly new ms windows world thanks \( please include message reference \) alavi ssa unity ncsu edu \( 919 \) 467 7909 \( h \) \( 919 \) 515 8063 \( w \)
narlochn kirk msoe edu subject need help wordperfect windows distribution usa organization milwaukee school engineering , milwaukee , wi usa lines 19 two questions 1 \) troubles wordperfect windows try select change fonts , etc text disappears tried center two lines , second line disappeared find error , know correct 2 \) right newsgroup \? go \? e mail prefered else still waiting naked gun part \( pi \) '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' ' '' '' '' ' edu '' '' '' ' '' ' \( \) ' '' '' ' narlochn kirk msoe edu ' '' '' '' '' , wi '' ' team '' '' ' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '
kayman csd 3 stanford edu \( robert kayman \) subject canon bj200 \( bubblejet \) hp deskjet 500 originator kayman csd 3 stanford edu keywords printer organization computer science department , stanford university lines 35 hello fellow 'netters asking collected wisdom help decide printer purchase , canon bj200 \( bubblejet \) vs hp deskjet 500 thought , rather trust salesperson , would benefit relying use printers daily use fullest potential , figure know benefits pitfalls better salesperson , would greatly appreciate information could render 360 dpi canon bubblejet vs hewlett packard deskjet 500 \( 300 dpi \) faster \? noticeable print quality difference , particularly graphics \? handle large documents better \( 75 pages \) personal experience either appreciated \? works better windows 3 1 \( driver problems , etc \) \? cost memory , font packages , toner cartridges , etc \? basically , personal experiences either machines highly desirable , good bad advance kudos thanks input e mail news posting readily acceptable , e mail encouraged \( limits bandwidth \) sincerely , robert kayman kayman cs stanford edu cpa cs stanford edu theory , theory practice practice , mean want revised revision original revised revision revised \? ! \? !
sd ncr com \( chris \) subject anyone use number 9 gxe video card \? summary anyone use number 9 gxe video card \? keywords video adaptor hardware graphics distribution world organization ncr corp , network products san diego lines 5 anyone used number nine \( 9 \) video graphics adaptor windows windows nt \? think \? \? \? 2 c
gamet erg sri com \( thomas gamet \) subject keyboard specifications organization sri international , menlo park , ca lines 35 hardware firmware gurus current home project build huge paddle keyboard physically handicapped relative mine goal keyboard look exactly like keyboard host system highly endowed keyboard little pcl z world heart thing lack detailed information hardware 486 \( windows 3 1 dos 5 0 \) expecting project independant windows , hope fellow window 's users programmers recognize need willing point right direction l hardware bible \( 2nd edition \) hb gives \( \) information need concerning scan codes even wire diagram ps 2 style connector need , leaves number important questions unanswered 1 synchronous asynchronous serial communication \? i'm guessing synchronous since host providing clock either event , data framed \? 2 half duplex truly one way \? i'm guessing half duplex since host turn leds 3 chipsets available communicating keyboard standard \( real keyboard \) \? anyone knows book article \( written source information \) , please advise gamet erg sri com whatever must safe cannot afford replace 486 event thank time fuer zeit thomas gamet \( gamet erg sri com \) software engineer sri international
sms business uwo ca \( c patrick \) subject page numbering problem wfw canon organization university western ontario nntp posting host sms business uwo ca lines 11 using wfw 2 0c canon printer driver comes windows 3 1 , problem printing page numbers bottom page print page number top page , bottom anybody similar problem anybody solution problem thanks business uwo ca sms business uwo ca \( c patrick \) western business school london , ontario
subject gui application frameworks windows \? \? stefan olson acme gen nz \( stefan olson \) lines 32 1993apr12 cimlinc uucp cimlinc uucp \( brett harper \) writes hello , i'm investigating purchase object oriented application framework come across look good zapp 1 1 zinc 3 5 zinc software c views liant win blaise considerations i'm using new windows programming \( i'm unix x world \) , quality abstraction class libraries provide important however , since i'm adverse learning internals windows programming , new programming methodology closely aligned native one n't believe arbitrary levels abstraction , sake changing api , valuable microsoft classes \( \) come c c 7 0 \( visual c \) good , already version nt , comes source code , close api also classes manage data structures stefan stefan olson mail stefan olson acme gen nz kindness giving creates love
jesse subject ms windows mature os \? originator cyen ponder csci unt edu keywords ms windows organization computer science dept unt distribution usa lines 39 hi , used mac system 6 x 7 x \? answer positive , would know ms windows mature os days ago people doubted ms windows real os see question ms windows confuses many people microsoft simulated mac , lousy job example \( 1 \) create hierarchy groups way create group group \( know , please tell \) \( 2 \) many system parameters take care \( 3 \) documentation 's easy find reason causes unpredictable error \( 4 \) group deleting file deleting deleting group , users use file manager delete files users forget delete related files , disk full nonsense files \( 5 \) share problem create two windows compilation editing language \( w good editor \) , sharing problem open save program loaded makes sense prevent saving , opening microsoft try compromise dos windows , make ms windows graphical dos capacity dos jobs worst thing environment orginal purpose ms windows simplify environment , make pc easier use 's means easy satisfy everybody , microsoft want keep reputations , evaluate user interface carefully products distribute flame , please jesse e mail cyen cs unt edu sol acs unt edu
ns1 cc lehigh edu \( olcay \) subject make ghostscript work \? organization lehigh university lines 40 need zip 24 zip , 25 zip font files get wuarchive wustl edu mirrors msdos postscript also advice get zip cica nice interface ghostscript ghostscript user unfriendly interface makes user friendly using interface get dll \( risc ua edu pub network misc \) copy windows directory copy gui executables files ghostscript directory line autoexec bat set gs lib c ghostscript gui directory ready use enjoy article 1993apr16 1 ulkyvx louisville edu , cl238405 ulkyvx e edu \( steve w brewer \) writes files need download ghostscript 2 5 2 \? never used ghostscript , n't files zip , downloaded cica unfortunately , n't seem work 's , needs files n't want run ghostscript windows 3 1 ms dos 386 pc \( understand 's versions environments \) files need download get \? info would steve w brewer w cl238405 ulkyvx louisville edu ude 0
ccastco prism gatech edu \( constantinos malamas \) subject \? \? dos font size windows \? \? organization georgia institute technology lines 25 article 1993apr18 ncsu edu ssa unity ncsu edu \( alavi \) writes \( normal 8514 font , small \) 386 enhanced mode dos window font small 14 monitor way font size dos window \? 'll excuse trivial answer , since fairly new ms windows world thanks alavi ssa unity ncsu edu \( 919 \) 467 7909 \( h \) first , without wanting sound nagging bossy , yes trivial answer 's perfectly fine \( otherwise one supposed move complicated challenging questions , net readers much enjoy \) \? \) , massive crossposting article justified please refer appropriate newsgroups next time \( way c msw misc ok \) \) far problem concerned try playing around settings dialog box window control menu \( little square top left corner window \) costas malamas georgia institute technology oit ua opinions expressed necessarily oit 's internet ccastco prism gatech edu
mv mv com \( lee \) subject ms windows mature os \? keywords ms windows organization mv communications , inc distribution usa lines 24 get hierarchical icon groups ms windows use norton desktop windows ms windows mature 's lousy supposed lousy 's goal ubiquitous good ms windows course masses infrastructure 102 \( dos 102 , cp 101 \) unix course infrastructure 101 together prove good effect good , good effect ubiquitous need , higher level function posix dce \? \? \? \? \? \? see problem \? nt may infrastructure 103 , also monopoly 102 \( 101 ibm \) , going \? dubious lee lee 7 drive merrimack , nh 603 424 fax 603 424 information technology verification leadership
ghhwang csie nctu edu tw \( ghhwang \) subject wp pcf , linux , risc \? organization computer sci information eng , chiao tung u , taiwan , roc x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 7 dear friend , risc means reduced instruction set computer risc usually small instruction set reduce circuit complex increase clock rate high performance read books computer architecture information risc ghhwang csie nctu edu tw form r c taiwan
gtonwu uz nthu edu tw \( tony g wu \) subject need video drivers tseng true color organization national tsing hua university \( \) x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 18 hello purchased video card called et 4000 true color card provide 1700k colors question ca n't find corresponding drivers windows 3 1 , using 65k colors driver win31 works fine , think better use 1700k driver , please tell whether driver available ! thanks advance \( forever 23 , michael jordan \) tony g wu gtonwu uz nthu edu tw cae rheology lab nthu tony che nthu edu tw
rhi hi \( jon \) subject insert 16 color pics wfw2 0 lines 9 nntp posting host rhi hi well , subject says intended ask way insert 256 color wfw 2 0 \? try , picture turns 16 color pic
cco caltech edu \( andrew tong \) subject internal speaker driver organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 7 nntp posting host sandman caltech edu probably faq somewhere , i'm looking microsoft 's internal speaker sound driver windows microsoft 's ftp site , ca n't remember name site thanks
ccastco prism gatech edu \( constantinos malamas \) subject ms windows mature os \? keywords ms windows distribution usa organization georgia institute technology lines 46 article cyen ponder jesse writes hi , used mac system 6 x 7 x \? answer positive , would know ms windows mature os days ago people doubted ms windows real os see question ms windows confuses many people microsoft common complaints ms windows deleted jesse e mail cyen cs unt edu sol acs unt edu hmmmm , get feeling gonna start one endless threads vs win might even end os 2 vs win well , dont know windows mature os , seen one \( case x windows \) \) , dont quick judge first try use plain vanilla windows courageous try use plain vanilla dos lots nice commercial shareware packages utilities boost windows past ms thought possible \) example , norton desktop windows 2 0 \( replace ment progman \) give group within group capability even change group icons , launch progs association \( well , \) dragging file apps icon \( mac doesnt , huh \? \) \) list goes , windows kinda hard , boost configure , thats price pay paying get mac os 2 capable machine \( entirely story \) hand dont like idea pm 's icons files , well supposed \) pm program launching utility file manager modify settings fm shell pm , get couple utilities cica supposedly give feel' dont wanna get discussion better system mac 's good way different better worse win pcs \( actually writing mac lab user assistant dont think partial win \) \) means check stuff cica \( ftp ftp cica indiana edu pub pc win3 user anonymous \) , wait startrek \( mac 's os pc ! ! ! threads gonna ! ! ! \) \) trying avoid another mac win war costas malamas georgia institute technology oit ua opinions expressed necessarily oit 's internet ccastco prism gatech edu
dudek acsu buffalo edu \( cybard \) subject midi files ms win3 1 soundblaster 1 0 \? summary play midi files ms windows 3 1 sb 1 0 card \? keywords midi , soundblaster , windows , ibm pc organization ub lines 15 nntp posting host autarch acsu buffalo edu 486dx 33 computer soundblaster 1 0 card i'm running microsoft windows v3 1 sb driver set properly play normal sounds \( wav files , etc \) want play midi files media player included windows know set patch maps something midi mapper control panel know nothing midi \( way 'll get feet wet \) set windows play midi files \? david thomas dudek ubvms bitnet cybard state university dudek sun acsu buffalo edu ` ' \) , , , new york music food love , \( \) buffalo play ! wm shakespeare ` \) '''
stein u washington edu \( linda cornell \) subject video gurus feel like attacking quirk \? article shelley distribution world organization university washington , seattle lines 37 nntp posting host stein u washington edu hi , i'm bizarre video problem within windows 3 1 286 gvga 16 video board 've using standard windows vga driver similarly configured computers thinking problem way windows refreshes 's screen problem windows , colors start changing first thought hardware , open full screen dos program within windows session , n't problems get back windows however , initially return windows , original colors get refreshed properly also , uniform color change , design back card maintains 's original color scheme , white fronts cards turn grey , blue , etc color changes keep getting darker finally everything dark purple ish black pop dos exit back windows screen gets refreshed n't log windows dos things novell network , everything fine originally loaded software bouncing net machine finished configuring , net machine ran problems , deleted everything machine net , tried bouncing n't work , tried reloading windows avail thoughts things check \? totally baffled ! thanks advance assistance instruction ! linda cornell u washington edu uw office research
anik crhc uiuc edu \( anik \) subject win nt \? \? \? organization center reliable high performance computing lines 45 rick silver sdd trw com nntp posting host lyra crhc uiuc edu reply reimert etdesg trw com 's message fri , 16 apr 93 21 34 28 gmt article sdd trw com reimert etdesg trw com \( scott p reimert \) writes somewhere thread , said windows nt \( tm \) multi user os , well multi threading , etc certainly n't seen case seperate accounts person , even seperate directories desired n't see use though scott certainly multi user seen march beta n't yet come stuff exploits multi user features remember somebody ms stating n't allow two users share one gui interpretation one user per console networking rpc based stuff want believe ftp rlogin nt systems come third party somebody already beta version unsecure net reason one cannot write posix based shell like csh unix remote logins general liked nt checked slow compared win3 1 \( like real os \) beta version , although slow , much faster sun workstation windows subsystems also start lot faster x windows believe bill gates right stated nt everybody playing around convinced owned using business computer ibm established vendor , would consider moving nt platform would provide much cheaper solution \( running sql servers etc \) provides application requires hand like dos games , less forget nt always boot dos general defeats purpose using nt nt 's features visible networked environment environment ca n't reboot machine personal use , would rather wait win32 based windows release \( whatever name \) jump nt bandwagon expect applications keep using win16 win32 becomes widely available anik , u illinois urbana champaign center reliable high performance computing e mail anik crhc uiuc edu
bergen vaxb acs unt edu subject need help wp windows lines 26 organization university north texas distribution usa article 1993apr17 92 kirk msoe edu , narlochn kirk msoe edu writes two questions 1 \) troubles wordperfect windows try select change fonts , etc text disappears tried center two lines , second line disappeared find error , know correct 2 \) right newsgroup \? go \? e mail prefered ' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' '' ' know said e mail preferred common problem 'll post screen looks like text gone usually page page complete refresh text reappears rare occasions completely exit \( save first \) program file , chaos resolved n't know , annoying graphics problems made word windows user ! !
gtonwu uz nthu edu tw \( tony g wu \) subject need video drivers tseng true color organization national tsing hua university \( \) x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 26 tony g wu \( gtonwu uz nthu edu tw \) wrote hello purchased video card called et 4000 true color card provide 1700k colors question ca n't find corresponding drivers windows 3 1 , using 65k colors driver win31 works fine , think better use 1700k driver , please tell whether driver available ! thanks advance sorry card display colors 1700k colors hope one could answer question ! thanks \( forever 23 , michael jordan \) tony g wu gtonwu uz nthu edu tw cae rheology lab nthu tony che nthu edu tw
ev nctu edu tw \( h j hong \) subject ftp tool windows organization national chiao tung university x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 8 one know ftp tool windows get tool \? thanks help ! ! h j 1993 , 4 , 19
cs ucsd edu \( tony \) subject fahrenheit 1280 problems , help ! organization cse dept , u c san diego lines 37 nntp posting host tartarus ucsd edu hi , recently bought orchid fahrenheit 1280 's real nice card , i'm big problems basic problem vertical lines missing display windows something like every line also , use dos gif viewer , namely vpic 6 0c , fahrenheit 1280 mode , vertical lines swapped 's strange looking uses vesa standards , however , works great ! thinks 's 512k card \( 's 1mb \) contacted orchid support , tried helpful , n't answer n't think card problem , since works great friend 's computer setup fahrenheit 1280 , 1mb , bios 1 1 386 25 , opti , ami bios 1990 , 5mb ram maxtor 120mb harddrive , \( slave \) maxtor 40mb harddrive \( master \) panasonic monitor , version 4 6 windows drivers windows 3 1 tried taking memory managers , etc , took cards \( besides disk controller \) friend 's setup 386sx 16 , monitor anyone seen anything like , otherwise help , greatful please send e mail tartarus ucsd edu ucsd edu tony
eng monash edu au \( charles \) subject 486 33 win3 1 hang lines 12 organization faculty engineering , monash university help , problem 486 33mhz hangs extended mode trying access drives b , sometimes dir , sometimes hang access sometimes tying text file hardware american motherboard ami bios 91 conner 85mb hard drive trident 1 meg svga please help ! ! ! ok standard mode ! ! !
yuan wiliki eng hawaii edu \( maw ying yuan \) subject win3 1 config sys query organization university hawaii , college engineering lines 11 hi , ram , need run load smartdrv windows 3 1 \? yes , run load ramdrive without smartdrv \? need ramdrive smartdrv , following config sys settings ok smartdrv sys 2048 2048 ramdrive sys 2048 e thanks advance e mail reply yuan wiliki eng hawaii edu
dewinter prl philips nl \( rob de winter \) subject wanted info asymetrix toolbook originator dewinter prl philips nl organization philips research laboratories , eindhoven , netherlands lines 17 anyone know phone fax number asymetrix corporation also interested e mail address would also like know current status product toolbook received last update 1 5 1 5 year ago new developments toolbook slowly dying \? regards , rob de winter nothing beats skiing , want real fun holidays rob de winter philips research , ist , building wl 1 p box 80000 , 5600 ja eindhoven netherlands tel 31 40 743621 e mail dewinter prl philips nl
ntu edu tw \( chia yi lee \) subject \? \? dos font size windows \? \? nntp posting host ntu edu tw organization x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 20 alavi \( ssa unity ncsu edu \) wrote 8514 card , using windows 1024x768 mode \( normal 8514 font , small \) 386 enhanced mode dos window font small 14 monitor way font size dos window \? 'll excuse trivial answer , since fairly new ms windows world thanks \( please include message reference \) alavi ssa unity ncsu edu \( 919 \) 467 7909 \( h \) \( 919 \) 515 8063 \( w \) recall , click upper left button dos window , choose font change also demo window show advance font choose affect size dos window make try !
bekker bekker tn utwente nl subject wanted xterm emulator windows 3 1 keywords xterm reply bekker tn utwente nl organization university twente , enschede , netherlands lines 14 hello , looking xterm emulator runs windows 3 1 please reply via e mail thanks bekker h g bekker e mail bekker tn utwente nl faculty applied physics voice university twente fax netherlands
idca tds philips nl \( jan van \) subject diamond ss24x , win 3 1 , mouse cursor lines 47 dabl2 nlm nih gov \( b lindbergh \) writes article 1993apr15 204845 24939 nlm nih gov dabl2 nlm nih gov \( b lindbergh \) writes anybody seen mouse cursor distortion running diamond 1024x768x256 driver \? sorry , n't know version driver \( indication menus \) 's recently delivered gateway system going try latest drivers diamond bbs wondered anyone else seen followup , co worker 's machine latest 2 03 drivers happens using 1024x768x256 driver sometimes takes minute cursor wig , eventually mode something stepping memory video card wants excluded a000 c7ff emm386 line system ini problem persisted perhaps something specific gateway machine 's components 66mhz dx 2 eisa bus \( \? \) controller ah well , hoping kind problem' somebody seen perhaps call gateway order , find folks usually far know \( \) several problems card applications crashed moving mouse \( vga mode \) fixed removing line stacks 0 , 0 config sys default value stacks 9 , 256 fine random white pixels screen moving mouse , 256 color graphical mode \( hardware cursor modes \) fixed turning hardware scroll \( \) entering graphics mode also fixed problem windowed dos boxes windows hardware scroll enabled , applications write garbage outside window screensavers remove cursor 256 color modes \( hardware cursor \) n't know windows problem driver problem clearly two types cursor removing functions remove draw , ignored hardware cursors remove unconditionally cards hardware cursors problem \? vesa driver support truecolor mode \( universal vesa drivers run \) disclaimer unless otherwise stated , comments entirely jan van digital equipment corporation idca tds philips nl j
cs kuleuven ac \( rudi \) subject emm386 exe windows dos6 nntp posting host cs kuleuven ac organization dept lines 17 windows created permanent swap file win3 1 recommended \( 32bit access \) use emm386 exe , win3 1 startup memory free , leave emm386 exe config sys memory free , windows recommends swap file use dos6 , memmaker , 4mb internal memory 486dx , anybody knows happening \( possibly win needs umb 's manage virtual memory \? , true , umb 's , emm386 find without including suspicious parts \? \) need optimized dos environment , develop applications dos using windows programming environment rudi
wlieftin cs vu nl \( liefting w \) subject 486 33 win3 1 hang organization fac wiskunde informatica , vu , amsterdam lines 19 eng monash edu au \( charles \) writes help , problem 486 33mhz hangs extended mode trying access drives b , sometimes dir , sometimes hang access sometimes tying text file hardware american motherboard ami bios 91 conner 85mb hard drive trident 1 meg svga please help ! ! ! ok standard mode ! ! ! problem someone suggested might bios bug gonna check supplier tomorrow 'll tell helps wouter
cad gmeds com \( dominic \) subject win nt \? \? \? organization eds cadillac lines 16 nntp posting host cad gmeds com anyway , n't expect soon windows 4 dos 7 supposed understanding chicago dos 7 released next year \( read see 95 \) , expect chicogo wo n't til '96 dominic email cad gmeds com electronic data systems phone \( 313 \) 696 'd like talk hours go ahead spin doctors note views opinions expressed herein mine , reflect electronic data systems corp
frode ifi unit \( frode kvam \) subject ftp site wav files organization institutt informatikk , tr heim , x newsreader tin 1 1 pl4 lines 27 hello everybody ftp sites wav files available \? \? \? frode kvam \) \( c \) name frode kvam univ university trondheim , dept informatics e mail frode ifi unit snail mail 8 trondheim voice 47 7 50 45 06 beware programmers carry screwdrivers
kmembry viamar uucp \( kirk membry \) subject moving icons reply rutgers ! viamar ! kmembry organization private system lines 9 remember reading program made windows icons run away mouse moved near anyone know name program ftp location \( probably cica \) kirk membry age age industry rutgers ! viamar ! kmembry alexander rodchenko
kmembry viamar uucp \( kirk membry \) subject pixel font reply rutgers ! viamar ! kmembry organization private system lines 9 i'm looking font looks like pixels monitor \( lcd kind font though \) anyone know get one \? kirk membry age age industry rutgers ! viamar ! kmembry alexander rodchenko
uucp \( marc snyder \) subject anyone use number 9 gxe video card \? organization ciba corporation , additives division keywords video adaptor hardware graphics lines 13 article sd ncr com sd ncr com \( chris \) writes anyone used number nine \( 9 \) video graphics adaptor windows windows nt \? think \? \? \? put one machine last week ast 486 66 getting winmarks diamond , 9 board winmarks brief experiences , i'm satisfied btw , win 3 1 marc snyder uucp philabs ! ! system administrator ciba corporation , new york work 914 785 play 914 347
world std com \( clinton pierce \) subject need help setting pif games summary ca n't seem get settings right things keywords windows pif organization incorporated , lines 29 hi ! games 'd like run windows 3 1 ca n't get adjusted right example wing commander dos prompt , available programs enough run wc build pif giving wc couple megs extended memory etc run wc prompts loading wing commander message using extended memory etc screen goes black \( opening scene would appeared \) also pool game almost thing opens prompts kind video driver \( cga , ega , etc \) respond ega screen goes black ctrl alt del back windows anyone run wing commander windows \? problems describe fixed \? 's rest setup disk free 8mb memory 5 free win session 386dx 25 respond e mail anyone else needs info , send mail couple days , 'll forward replies clinton pierce bear polar bear coordinate transform world std com
eugene mpce mq edu au subject wp pcf , linux , risc \? organization macquarie university , australia lines 18 nntp posting host macadam mpce mq edu au originator eugene macadam mpce mq edu au article c5o1yq m34 csie nctu edu tw ghhwang csie nctu edu tw \( ghhwang \) writes dear friend , risc means reduced instruction set computer risc usually small instruction set reduce circuit complex increase clock rate high performance read books computer architecture information risc hmm authority risc \) clearly remember reading instruction set risc cpus rather large difference addressing modes risc instruction sets orthogonal cisc people say 's fun , think 's serious eugene macadam mpce mq edu au
hayesj rintintin colorado edu \( hayes james michael jr \) subject window start position app , \? keywords app window , startup position nntp posting host rintintin colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 8 set app give window default start position size \? mike hayes knowledge good faber college motto www knowledge thoroughness poly motto unemployed tech , , thank ! groucho marx , 'a day races' driven banging head engineering physics 4 years
rz uni passau de \( olaf \) subject wanted info asymetrix toolbook organization university passau germany lines 30 nntp posting host rz uni passau de article 1993apr19 prl philips nl dewinter prl philips nl \( rob de winter \) writes anyone know phone fax number asymetrix corporation also interested e mail address would also like know current status product toolbook received last update 1 5 1 5 year ago new developments toolbook slowly dying \? regards , rob de winter nothing beats skiing , want real fun holidays rob de winter philips research , ist , building wl 1 p box 80000 , 5600 ja eindhoven netherlands tel 31 40 743621 e mail dewinter prl philips nl rob , e mail adress support asymetrix com 've heard v 2 0 beta look list l toolbook list regards , olaf
caldwell brahms udel edu \( david l caldwell \) subject borland 's paradox offer nntp posting host brahms udel edu organization university delaware distribution usa lines 19 considering buying borland 's paradox windows since would like use database windows \( n't use one yet \) work home use would like advantage borland 's 129 95 april 30 offer package everything borland claims , wondering anybody used opinions \? tom belmonte 've using ms access \( still available stores 99 00 \) quite pleased 's relatively easy learn , easy use somewhat easy program highly recomend , particularly 99 00 ! used paradox windows , n't expect 30 00 better access \( imho \) dave
uni duesseldorf de \( stefan \) subject winword quattro pro problems notebook organization institut , heinrich heine universitaet duesseldorf lines 19 nntp posting host 134 99 100 6 hello , 386sx25 notebook windows 3 1 running fine winword 2 0 quattro pro windows also work fine virtual memory used switching virtual memory option programs \( probably others \) n't work , system crashes programs work well arbitrary virtual memory two desktop pc 's wrong \? help , please mail directly , possible thank much advance stefan stefan k heinrich heine university institute general psychology duesseldorf , germany e mail rz uni duesseldorf de
slg slgsun att com \( idealistic cynic \) subject quickly switch windows screen resolutions \? organization bell labs , columbus , ohio distribution na nntp posting host slgsun cb att com lines 18 someone tell switch window 's screen resolution quickly easily \? know go back install , 'd really like ability change couple startup configuration files resolution changed already video drivers need system , n't problem thanks , sean sean l gilley sean l gilley att com use address , others bounce ! 614 236 \( h \) , 614 860 \( w \)
ecst csuchico edu \( jerry w johnson \) subject transfer video tape \? organization california state university , chico lines 11 nntp posting host corpse ecst csuchico edu hi , i'm asking info behalf friend , would , best way copy output monitor video tape \? ideas \? please prescribe additional hardware software \? \( i'm assuming intel windows environment \) thanks advance jerry help support dam jerry w johnson struggling csci grad student ecst csuchico edu \( kind \? \) mothers
bryan src sbs utah edu subject okidata printer driver organization university utah computer center lines 16 okidata printer would like printer driver anyone seen thing \? one microsoft bbs print windows fonts available paradox windows ca n't print labels unless proper printer defined thanks , bryan k ward survey research center university utah mail bryan src sbs utah edu
rem bu edu \( robert mee \) subject diamond speedstar driver v3 1 organization boston university , boston , , usa lines 16 looking win31 driver \( set \) diamond speedstar 1mb video card anybody know archive site \? looked cica drivers stealth card generic et4000 cards one specifically speedstar one \? diamond dropped speedstar driver development loop thanks info , rob robert mee boston university information technology \( rem bu bu edu \)
ntaib silver ucs indiana edu \( iskandar taib \) subject win nt \? \? \? nntp posting host silver ucs indiana edu organization indiana university lines 30 article sdd trw com reimert etdesg trw com \( scott p reimert \) writes somewhere thread , said windows nt \( tm \) multi user os , well multi threading , etc certainly n't seen case seperate accounts person , even seperate directories desired n't see use though since running gui network going slow fair amount , expect windows nt multiuser sense sharing filesystems someone likely write one could run character based apps , graphics based apps shared running executables local cpu things shaping everywhere client server architectures taking old cpu terminal setups note next always telnet next run character based apps ca n't run gui \( yeah , know x windows , n't impressed \) iskandar taib thing worse peach ala internet ntaib silver ucs indiana edu frog frog ala peach bitnet ntaib iubacs !
uafhp uark edu \( chris \) subject \? \? dos font size windows \? \? organization kansas state university lines 20 nntp posting host uafhp uark edu ssa unity ncsu edu \( alavi \) writes 8514 card , using windows 1024x768 mode \( normal 8514 font , small \) 386 enhanced mode dos window font small 14 monitor way font size dos window \? 'll excuse trivial answer , since fairly new ms windows world thanks \( please include message reference \) alavi ssa unity ncsu edu \( 919 \) 467 7909 \( h \) \( 919 \) 515 8063 \( w \) control box window \( upper left corner window , single click , simplistic \? \) font option 8 x 12 biggest one use without characters turning funky helps
rajiev cfmu eurocontrol \( rajiev gupta \) subject windows nt faq \? nntp posting host organization eurocontrol central flow management unit lines 26 article news rich bnr ca gal bnr ca \( gene \) writes really gives pause ask first heard windows nt surprised name immediately occurred sounds like northern telecom product anyone else notice \? way , bnr \( see address \) r subsidiary nt see mean \? gal bnr ca \( gene \) opera , identify esn 444 \( 214 \) 684 character elektra po box , richardson , tx often worries usa 1986 opinions expressed mine bnr 's windows nt also derived next letter alphabet vms hal ibm might recall chief architect vms also chief designer rajiev gupta rajiev gupta eurocontrol cfmu disclaimer rajiev cfmu eurocontrol rue de la 72 views , tel 32 2 729 33 12 b 1040 companies fax 32 2 729 32 16 belgium
rajiev cfmu eurocontrol \( rajiev gupta \) subject questions windows nt help ! nntp posting host organization eurocontrol central flow management unit keywords windows nt , unix , sun sparc lines 36 article ms uky edu ms uky edu \( \) writes n't know much windows nt , 've always thought win nt would run intel 386 486 compatable systems setting network includes sun sparc server 4 490 dozen pc 's people suggest run windows nt sun sparc server 4 490 replacing current os \( sunos \) n't know whether possible whether would us good would appreciate help answering questions 1 windows nt run sun sparc server 490 \? 2 answer question 1 yes , run unix applications \( sas unix \) 3 windows nt multiuser os \? 4 windows nt released \? 5 telephone number call get info win nt \? thank far read win nt supported intel , dec alpha mips r4000 series processors remember though reading rumour sparc support sometime future sure mean running unix applications would sas win nt \( maybe sas win16 etc \) read ms win nt end may 93 \( comdex spring \) hope helps rajiev gupta rajiev gupta eurocontrol cfmu disclaimer rajiev cfmu eurocontrol rue de la 72 views , tel 32 2 729 33 12 b 1040 companies fax 32 2 729 32 16 belgium
wild access digex com \( wildstrom \) subject windows 3 1 keeps crashing please help organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 17 nntp posting host access digex net article 1993apr16 oracle us oracle com ebosco us oracle com \( eric bosco \) writes ebosco us oracle com \( eric bosco \) subject windows 3 1 keeps crashing please help date fri , 16 apr 1993 15 56 37 gmt subjects says , windows 3 1 keeps crashing \( gpf \) late never stable package , seems crash every day worst part crash consistently ie way sys ini turn ram parity checking \( unfortunately , good windows references home , standard win reference tell , email back \) weird memory may producing phony parity errors danger , turn , run slight risk data corruption due missed real error
newcastle ac uk \( \) subject wp pcf , linux , risc \? nntp posting host turing organization computing laboratory , u newcastle upon tyne , uk ne1 7ru lines 47 article 1qu8ud 2hd sunb ocs mq edu au , eugene mpce mq edu au writes article c5o1yq m34 csie nctu edu tw ghhwang csie nctu edu tw \( ghhwang \) writes dear friend , risc means reduced instruction set computer risc usually small instruction set reduce circuit complex increase clock rate high performance read books computer architecture information risc hmm authority risc \) clearly remember reading instruction set risc cpus rather large difference addressing modes risc instruction sets orthogonal cisc hope clear \( taken one lecture notes \) alternative approach \( cisc \) , adopted many recent years , come known risc reduced instruction set computer simply simpler faster design \( e g reducing variety instructions addressing modes \) , hardware designed run faster even cost needing instructions , task done quickly simpler , faster design typical risc processor provide large number registers \( e g 32 \) perform data operations registers provide addressing modes \( e g immediate \) allow load store operations access memory use instruction formats support data types \( e g integer , unsigned , floating \) janet uk ac newcastle odds million one something occurring , chances 50 50
toelle uenics evansville edu \( chad toelle \) subject fax software windows organization university evansville distribution usa lines 10 would like know current fax software available windows take 9600 baud fax modem 14 4k \? please respond info thank much chad toelle toelle evansville edu st philip rd mt vernon , uunet ! evansville edu ! toelle \( 812 \) 985
eric tgm cam org \( eric \) subject cool bmp files \? \? reply eric tgm cam org organization bell , revenue systems development lines 27 article 1993apr17 023017 17301 gmuvax2 gmu edu rwang gmuvax2 gmu edu writes hi , everybody guess subject said getting boring looking old bmp files came windows , wondering body beautiful bmp file share maybe somebody tell ftp site bmp files , like scenery files , animals files , etc used , unfortunately delete downloaded compuserve gif month raytraced image golf ball next hole nice , 640x480x256 bitmap , easily converted windows bmp anyone wants , could upload copy cica eric eric internet eric tgm cam org ci , 55 \( quebec \) everybody right believe something canada \( 514 \) 663 believe 'll another beer !
make cs tu berlin de \( \) subject using microsoft foundation classes borland c 3 1 organization technical university berlin , germany lines 17 distribution usa nntp posting host troll cs tu berlin de mime version 1 0 content type text plain charset iso 8859 1 content transfer encoding 8bit hi , anybody tried compile mfc samples directory , compiling mfc libs bwc \? seems , bwc n't able distinguish pointers overloaded functions example , imagine following 2 \( overloaded \) functions void name \( void \) void name \( int \) trying whole day , think , bwc impossible take adress one two functions assign properly defined function pointer right \? anybody else problem \? thanx
wad hp com \( \) subject anyone know stacker 's email address \? organization hewlett packard waldbronn , germany lines 15 anybody know stacker e mail address , \? know bbs something compuserve , i'm hoping someone know 's e mail address john white electronics reached , 1005 1005 compuserve com would email address work internet internet wad hp com phone germany address , waldbronn analytic division r , hewlett packard str , waldbronn 2 , germany
wad hp com \( \) subject need help writing ms excel macro organization hewlett packard waldbronn , germany lines 20 student begin lowest score found max possible value 1 number assignments begin score lowest score found lowest score found score end total score sum \( scores \) lowest score found end could n't simply use min \( \) use sum \( \) subtract sum \( \) \? \? internet wad hp com phone germany address , waldbronn analytic division r , hewlett packard str , waldbronn 2 , germany
thang egr uh edu \( chin heng thang \) subject win 3 1 startup screen win 3 0 startup screen \? \? \? ! ! ! \? ! \? ! organization university houston lines 20 nntp posting host egr uh edu ! installed 256 color svga driver windows last week driver downloaded ftp cica indiana edu specifically paradise svga card however , installed run windows , startup screen beginning becomes old windows 3 0 startup screen \? \? \? \? ! ! \? \? ! ! everything works fine except startup screen know startup screen must changed system ini file \( \? \) could n't figure alter ! one help \? please e mail address thang tree egr uh edu thang jetson uh edu addition , anyone know get paradise svga driver \( 256 color \) \? used computer anything \( drivers , etc \) regarding driver thanks advance \)
bishop baeyer chem fsu edu \( greg bishop \) subject borland 's paradox offer organization physics department , fsu news software vax vms vnews reply bishop baeyer chem fsu edu lines 31 considering buying borland 's paradox windows since would like use database windows \( n't use one yet \) work home use would like advantage borland 's 129 95 april 30 offer package everything borland claims , wondering anybody used opinions \? tom belmonte interested program easy use , strongly suggest approach 2 0 extremely easy use , make reports , etc paradox , almost never use paradox need build complicated application , paradox way go heard horror stories access programming extremely cryptic since seem like probably fairly small stuff \( work home use used database \) , recommend approach found one small thing would like easily one database order records entered must different logical ordering permanently \( use old dbase iii command \) records requires sorting records appropriately \( problem , since almost always use order \) database another database \( still approach database \) , copying exported files back original filename small weakness , considering items really like approach also little slower paradox \( loading , paradox takes forever minute load \) paradox also takes lot memory \( hard disk \( around 12mb \) ram \) greg bishop \( bishop baeyer chem fsu edu \)
ccastco prism gatech edu \( constantinos malamas \) subject quickly switch windows screen resolutions \? distribution na organization georgia institute technology lines 18 article cbnewsl cb att com slg slgsun att com \( idealistic cynic \) writes someone tell switch window 's screen resolution quickly easily \? know go back install , sean l gilley take look ftp cica indiana edu pub pc win3 \( util \? misc \? \) program zip 's close want want get win3 1 hope helps costas malamas georgia institute technology oit ua opinions expressed necessarily oit 's internet ccastco prism gatech edu
nyx cs du edu \( david \) subject diamond speedstar driver v3 1 x disclaimer nyx public access unix system run university denver denver community university neither control responsibility opinions users organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept lines 10 article bu edu rem bu edu \( robert mee \) writes looking win31 driver \( set \) diamond speedstar 1mb video card diamond bbs 2400 baud bbs phone number \( 408 \) 730 1100 9600 baud bbs phone number \( 408 \) 524 sorry , n't know ftp site \( though 'd surprised n't one \)
ccastco prism gatech edu \( constantinos malamas \) subject cool bmp files \? \? organization georgia institute technology lines 31 article 1993apr17 023017 17301 gmuvax2 gmu edu rwang gmuvax2 gmu edu writes hi , everybody guess subject said getting boring looking old bmp files came windows , wondering body beautiful bmp file share maybe somebody tell ftp site bmp files , like scenery files , animals files , etc used , unfortunately delete eric hmmm , let 's see could upload bmp files \( around 15 b w color ones \) , 'd rather give fishing pole instead fish goes guide windows backgrounds step 1 ftp cica \( ftp cica indiana edu user anonymous passwd guest \) cd pub pc win3 \( util \? desktop \? \) get one zip , \? \? zip \? \? \? \? \? zip scale , dither convert gifs get index file win3 future reference step 2 ftp wuarchive wustl edu plaza aarnet edu au archive orst edu cd graphics gif get index file gigabytes pictures waiting become desktop advice slow computer \( 486dx w 4mb ram \) , make bg b w selecting b w dither apps hope helps costas malamas georgia institute technology oit ua opinions expressed necessarily oit 's internet ccastco prism gatech edu
ralph spss com \( ralph \) subject using microsoft foundation classes borland c 3 1 organization spss , inc distribution usa lines 53 article news cs tu berlin de , make cs tu berlin de \( \) writes hi , anybody tried compile mfc samples directory , compiling mfc libs bwc \? seems , bwc n't able distinguish pointers overloaded functions example , imagine following 2 \( overloaded \) functions void name \( void \) void name \( int \) trying whole day , think , bwc impossible take adress one two functions assign properly defined function pointer right \? anybody else problem \? thanx think may chasing wrong problem n't think function overloading sort thing time bc without hitch big problems encountered porting mfc bc fact mfc depends couple invalid c assumptions never gotten entire app run bc , reason ms makes bad assumptions order static global objects initialized \( e objects getting accessed initialized \) problem owner draw menu code somewhere comment section , pieces work fine two major found using mfc bc uses hard coded numbers open mode , rather manifest constants defined h \( differ msc bc \) mfc collection classes depend another bad c assumption reference base object used place reference derived object \( true pointers , references \) sure problems along lines , encountered \( yet \) seen mfc 2 0 yet , hope addressed , ms 's hype portability vendor 's compilers employer 's opinions , would n't posting whoever said nothing lasts forever obviously r cubs fan mike royko spss , inc chicago il
carols ohsu edu \( carol \) subject windows 3 1 keeps crashing please help article ohsu 1993apr19 organization oregon health sciences university lines 23 nntp posting host 137 53 130 7 article access digex net wild access digex com \( wildstrom \) writes article 1993apr16 oracle us oracle com ebosco us oracle com \( eric bosco \) writes ebosco us oracle com \( eric bosco \) subject windows 3 1 keeps crashing please help date fri , 16 apr 1993 15 56 37 gmt subjects says , windows 3 1 keeps crashing \( gpf \) late never stable package , seems crash every day worst part crash consistently ie way sys ini turn ram parity checking \( unfortunately , good windows references home , standard win reference tell , email back \) weird memory may producing phony parity errors danger , turn , run slight risk data corruption due missed real error problem , turning parity checking , worked windows , parity error would occur immediately exiting windows , however , problem turned 3 chip simms vs 9 chip simms ca n't use 3 chip simms computer , replaced , problem vanished , forever
rosie uh edu \( brown , william j \) subject questions windows nt help ! keywords windows nt , unix , sun sparc organization university houston lines 42 nntp posting host rosie uh edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article 1993apr19 cfmu eurocontrol , rajiev cfmu eurocontrol \( rajiev gupta \) writes article ms uky edu ms uky edu \( \) writes stuff deleted 1 windows nt run sun sparc server 490 \? 2 answer question 1 yes , run unix applications \( sas unix \) 3 windows nt multiuser os \? 4 windows nt released \? 5 telephone number call get info win nt \? thank far read win nt supported intel , dec alpha mips r4000 series processors remember though reading rumour sparc support sometime future sure mean running unix applications would sas win nt \( maybe sas win16 etc \) read ms win nt end may 93 \( comdex spring \) hope helps rajiev gupta rajiev gupta eurocontrol cfmu disclaimer rajiev cfmu eurocontrol rue de la 72 views , tel 32 2 729 33 12 b 1040 companies fax 32 2 729 32 16 belgium according april issue pc magazine \( pg 139 \) , quote , eventually , windows nt likely ported every successful risc architecture powerpc hp 's pa risc two likely candidates , sparc somewhat less likely sun 's relatively strong unix software base later bill
rcaldrn med miami edu \( richard calderon \) subject moving icons nntp posting host med miami edu organization university miami , medical school lines 17 kmembry viamar uucp \( kirk membry \) writes remember reading program made windows icons run away mouse moved near anyone know name program ftp location \( probably cica \) remember , name program looking called cica saw last quite ago richard calderon rcaldrn med miami edu university miami school medicine information systems computing 1029 nw 15 st miami , florida
optima cs arizona edu \( \) subject wp pcf , linux , risc \? lines 54 risc means reduced instruction set computer risc usually small instruction set reduce circuit complex increase clock rate high performance read books computer architecture information risc hmm authority risc \) clearly remember reading instruction set risc cpus rather large difference addressing modes risc instruction sets orthogonal cisc things might interested know today 's risc processors true fewer instructions , commonly known causes size executables swell , cases performance similar larger applications compromise , many risc processors today actually cross reduced instructions set , complex one say future cisc processors , intel certainly proved want know , group \? dave subject wp pcf , linux , risc \? newsgroups comp unix dos unix , comp sys ibm pc misc , comp sys ibm pc net , comp os ms windows apps , comp os ms windows misc , alt uu comp os linux questions , comp apps spreadsheets , comp misc , alt os linux , comp os linux , man linux references 1qu8ud 2hd sunb ocs mq edu au article 1qu8ud 2hd sunb ocs mq edu au , eugene mpce mq edu au article c5o1yq m34 csie nctu edu tw ghhwang csie nctu edu tw \( ghhwang \) writes dear friend , risc means reduced instruction set computer risc usually small instruction set reduce circuit complex increase clock rate high performance read books computer architecture information risc hmm authority risc \) clearly remember reading instruction set risc cpus rather large difference addressing modes risc instruction sets orthogonal cisc people say 's fun , think 's serious eugene macadam mpce mq edu au dave siegel \( \) president , rtd systems networking , inc president , hardware computing knowledge society \( hacks \) cs arizona edu hacks arizona edu rtd com
alee mnemosyne cs du edu \( alec lee \) subject windows speaker sound driver summary ftp \? organization university denver , dept math comp sci lines 7 ftp site get ms speaker sound driver \? 's sound exe file claims driver i'm suspicious since 's drv file thanks alec lee
subject window start position app , \? auck irl cri nz \( david white \) organization industrial research ltd , auckland , new zealand keywords app window , startup position nntp posting host kauri auck irl cri nz lines 15 1993apr19 ucsu colorado edu hayesj rintintin colorado edu \( hayes james michael jr \) writes set app give window default start position size \? try zip ftp cica indiana edu 129 79 20 84 directory ftp pub pc win3 desktop 's freeware also noticed program called zip , description looks like also want hope helps david white \( engineer , goon fan son dad \) internet auck irl cri nz fax 64 9 443 4737
garfield cs mun ca \( adam benson \) subject windows 3 1 slower using dos 6 \? \? \? \? summary according norton si computer slower windows lot slower keywords windows win dos organization cs dept , memorial university newfoundland lines 5 adam benson mt pearl , nf garfield cs mun ca
claebaur shell portal com \( tony annese \) subject windows speaker sound driver nntp posting host jobe organization portal communications company 408 973 9111 \( voice \) 408 973 8091 \( data \) lines 11 article 1993apr19 mnemosyne cs du edu alee mnemosyne cs du edu \( alec lee \) writes ftp site get ms speaker sound driver \? 's sound exe file claims driver i'm suspicious since 's drv file thats file tony annese claebaur shell portal com claebaur cup portal com
uxa cso uiuc edu \( bradley banko \) subject save hard disk \? ! \( allocation error , cross linked \) reply b banko uiuc edu organization university illinois urbana lines 150 hi running ms quick c compiler dos window windows 3 1 evening , got program violated system integrity close applications , exit windows restart computer error started immediately got serious disk error message windows hit return retry 5 times rebooted find quite files corrupted somehow \( including chkdsk output \) questions 1 \) easy way restore everything working order \? might better approaches \? 2 \) might caused \? smartdrv cache make vulnerable \? \( i'm suspicious hard drive caches especially cache data writing \) straightforward approach would run chkdsk f option fix disk looks like would probably reinstall windows things thanks comments suggestions brad banko ps 386sx machine 40mb hard drive 2 mb ram chkdsk output volume serial number errors found , f parameter specified corrections written disk c gfx vpic46 cvpic exe allocation error , size adjusted c gfx vpic46 vpic txt allocation error , size adjusted c gfx vpic46 video7 cfg allocation error , size adjusted c gfx vpic46 cfg allocation error , size adjusted c gfx vpic46 vga cfg allocation error , size adjusted c game goose x allocation error , size adjusted c winmisc adv21 winadv exe allocation error , size adjusted 316 lost allocation units found 224 chains bytes disk space would freed c gfx vpic46 cvpic exe cross linked allocation unit c gfx vpic46 cfg cross linked allocation unit c gfx vpic46 cfg cross linked allocation unit c gfx vpic46 cfg cross linked allocation unit c gfx vpic46 config doc cross linked allocation unit c gfx vpic46 vpic txt cross linked allocation unit c gfx vpic46 video7 cfg cross linked allocation unit c gfx vpic46 cfg cross linked allocation unit c gfx vpic46 cfg cross linked allocation unit c gfx vpic46 cfg cross linked allocation unit c gfx vpic46 oak cfg cross linked allocation unit c gfx vpic46 hires cfg cross linked allocation unit c gfx vpic46 cfg cross linked allocation unit c gfx vpic46 vpic doc cross linked allocation unit c gfx vpic46 cfg cross linked allocation unit c gfx vpic46 cfg cross linked allocation unit c gfx vpic46 wait com cross linked allocation unit c gfx vpic46 cfg cross linked allocation unit c gfx vpic46 wait doc cross linked allocation unit c gfx vpic46 cfg cross linked allocation unit c gfx vpic46 ega cfg cross linked allocation unit c gfx vpic46 config exe cross linked allocation unit c gfx vpic46 readme 1st cross linked allocation unit c gfx vpic46 vga cfg cross linked allocation unit c game goose x cross linked allocation unit c windows system sound drv cross linked allocation unit c windows grp cross linked allocation unit c windows 11 bmp cross linked allocation unit c 2a kin cross linked allocation unit c 2b kin cross linked allocation unit c 2 2 exe cross linked allocation unit c winmisc games exe cross linked allocation unit c winmisc games txt cross linked allocation unit c winmisc adv21 winadv wri cross linked allocation unit c winmisc adv21 adv key cross linked allocation unit c winmisc adv21 adv rec cross linked allocation unit c winmisc adv21 cross linked allocation unit c par cross linked allocation unit c cross linked allocation unit bytes total disk space bytes 4 hidden files bytes 67 directories bytes user files bytes available disk 2048 bytes allocation unit total allocation units disk 764 available allocation units disk total bytes memory bytes free brad banko dept physics u illinois b banko uiuc edu see one one teach one 73 de il
subject fortran library ms windows swell actrix gen nz \( chua \) organization actrix information exchange lines 13 hi ! like know fortran library ms windows v3 several lots source code written past ps ms fortran , recently needed port ms windows would like avoid major code rewrite possible maybe windows library need \? please help reply e mail swell actrix gen nz chua c morgan \( nz \) ltd , p box 11 525 , wellington , nz tel 64 4 471 fax 64 4 471
bigal wpi wpi edu \( nathan charles crowell \) subject wallpaper windows 3 1 organization worcester polytechnic institute lines 14 nntp posting host wpi wpi edu hi , utility available make windows randomly select one windows directory 's bmp files wallpaper file \? nate nathan c crowell , dept materials science worcester polytechnic institute e mail bigal wpi wpi edu flower \? genesis supper 's ready
begolej csgrad cs vt edu \( james \) subject trouble string variables organization vpi su computer science department , blacksburg , va lines 19 anyone else playing utility pc magazine \? , trouble string variables together need help example temp path file ext fullpath temp say fullpath output ' fullpath fullpath say fullpath output 'h file , seems dropping first characters memory maybe 20 variables total article n't mention memory limits email idea would like see actual source output thanks help bo james bo begolej csgrad cs vt edu
q twg com \( michael \) subject quicken 6 vs tobias' managing money summary comparisons q6 tobias' mym \? keywords quicken tobias organization wollongong group , palo alto , ca lines 19 got copy tobias' managing money v9 0 quicken 6 , 's wonderful things , mym seems features q6 n't example , q6 n't seem able handle monthly automatic deductions checking account \( know , monthly payment gets electronically deducted every month checking account \) something i'm right , q6 actually \? anyway , mym seems able handle monthly deductions fact , apparently better , specify monthly , bimonthly , quarterly , even yearly anyway , anyone aware study two programs \? someone give personal impressions \? maybe someone used maybe someone familiar could give capsule review \? anything would greatly appreciated keep mym , pay , n't know whether 's worth mym better q6 , course keep q6 everything mym \( maybe even better \) , wo n't thanks ! post reply , please also cc thanks
silver fraser sfu ca \( craig silver \) subject format win dos6 \? \? organization simon fraser university , burnaby , b c , canada distribution na lines 13 anyone experienced problems formatting system floppy file manager dos 6 \? get formatted disk boot , hard drive n't recognized install doublespace also , able make good working system floppy dos 6 command shell \( windows \) let know 've problem 've heard 's going craig silver computer science simon fraser university silver sfu ca \( internet \) burnaby , b c , canada
louray seas gwu edu \( michael panayiotakis \) subject exit codes \( dos sorry wrong group \( organization george washington university lines 19 hey first , sorry post dos question windows group , i'm kinda hurry , ca n't scramble find dos names anyway , anyone know find exit codes dos commands \? manual n't seem i'm particularly looking copy , order make move batch file , file n't properly , wo n't deleted please louray seas gwu edu thanks , , mickey pe michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace ! uunet ! seas gwu edu ! louray make ms windows grp file reflect hd directory \? \? well ai n't always right , 've never wrong \( gd \)
sebastian beer fido de \( sebastian beer \) subject diamond ss24x , win 3 1 , mouse cursor x comment \( b lindbergh \) organization lines 20 x gateway 2 4 b lindbergh 15 04 93 diamond ss24x , win 3 1 , mouse cursor da anybody seen mouse cursor distortion running diamond 1024x768x256 da driver \? sorry , n't know version driver \( indication da menus \) 's recently delivered gateway system going try da latest drivers diamond bbs wondered anyone else seen i'm using ss24x bios 2 03 driver 13 '93 've never problems mouse cursor already newer driver published \? greetings sebastian beer gimme die
nyx cs du edu \( john martin \) subject setting three user accounting system wfwg organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept lines 30 novice \( best \) working pc networks , process planning small accounting system small business particular need case three machines , different office building , access windows based accounting system first thought set ms windows workgroups machines \( likely 486 two 386 's \) along appropriate ethernet cards cabling come windows workgroups starter kit \( one additional user kit necessary \) seems logical purchase simple multi user accounting system , along lines b , fire ! 486 less act server report check printer attached cable runs 30 40 feet necessary setup well , seems easy would network gurus tell mind \? suggestions , however trivial , immensely appreciated apologies brought thanks ! john john e martin nyx cs du edu university sound '92 kent , wa \( formerly martin ups edu \) john e martin nyx cs du edu university sound '92 kent , wa \( formerly martin ups edu \)
leebr ecf toronto edu \( lee brian \) subject wp pcf , linux , risc \? organization university toronto , engineering computing facility lines 33 article 1qu8ud 2hd sunb ocs mq edu au eugene mpce mq edu au writes article c5o1yq m34 csie nctu edu tw ghhwang csie nctu edu tw \( ghhwang \) writes dear friend , risc means reduced instruction set computer risc usually small instruction set reduce circuit complex increase clock rate high performance read books computer architecture information risc hmm authority risc \) clearly remember reading instruction set risc cpus rather large difference addressing modes risc instruction sets orthogonal cisc people say 's fun , think 's serious eugene macadam mpce mq edu au theoretically supposed reduced longer 's everyone arguing risc v cisc personally , think cisc win take look pentium ! \( like intel architectures either , 's another story \) bye ! brian hojo lee hey , excuse miss , could gif \? leebr ecf toronto edu leebr eecg toronto edu \( try linux best free un x clone ! \)
fel tno nl \( mario veraart \) subject help importing eps files word 2 0 organization tno physics electronics laboratory lines 32 jburke abacus bates edu \( jburke \) writes wondering anyone knew view eps ms word 2 0a first couple lines helps ! ps adobe 3 0 creator title orientation portrait pages 12 ascend one help \? james burke reading agree hold writer responsible evil jburke abacus bates edu happening may time similar problem converting eps file solution simple changed first line ! ps adobe 3 0 ! ps adobe 2 0 fouled converter , eps file contained simple move draw statements mario mario veraart tno physics electronics laboratory email fel tno nl hague netherlands else fails , show pretty pictures animated videos , n't talk performance , david bailey
fel tno nl \( mario veraart \) subject windows help organization tno physics electronics laboratory lines 31 umyin ccu umanitoba ca \( yin \) writes hi , 's easy question windows gurus 'd appreciate help need write line help application n't windows software developer 's toolkit \( yet \) \) since want build hlp file around windows' help engine , hope wo n't complicated \? anyway , could someone kindly give hints build line help , take 100 pages explain \? complicated , would help point would need \? vincent q yin umyin ccu umanitoba ca hi , developed windows application must sdk sort contains hc exe exe file compile generate hlp files rtf files rtf files generated wordprocessor like word dos w4w solution specific application mario mario veraart tno physics electronics laboratory email fel tno nl hague netherlands else fails , show pretty pictures animated videos , n't talk performance , david bailey
louray seas gwu edu \( michael panayiotakis \) subject cool bmp files \? \? organization george washington university lines 15 downloaded compuserve gif month raytraced image golf ball next hole nice , 640x480x256 bitmap , easily converted windows bmp anyone wants , could upload copy cica please let us know specifics \( lest i'm one \) mickey pe michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace ! uunet ! seas gwu edu ! louray make ms windows grp file reflect hd directory \? \? well ai n't always right , 've never wrong \( gd \)
louray seas gwu edu \( michael panayiotakis \) subject wallpaper windows 3 1 organization george washington university lines 22 article bigboote wpi edu bigal wpi wpi edu \( nathan charles crowell \) writes hi , utility available make windows randomly select one windows directory 's bmp files wallpaper file \? nate nate 's sig couple personally using , screen saver also select wallpaper specified directory \( necessarily windows dir \) let know want info 've pretty happy , latest version \( 3 \) cica , oak , windows3 something mickey pe michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace ! uunet ! seas gwu edu ! louray make ms windows grp file reflect hd directory \? \? well ai n't always right , 've never wrong \( gd \)
cs vu nl \( \) subject windows hangs 486dx33 \? \? \? organization fac wiskunde informatica , vu , amsterdam lines 49 wlieftin cs vu nl \( liefting w \) writes hello windows freaks bought windows 3 1 \( dutch version \) time ago , run 286 recently upgraded computer 486dx33 , 256k cache , 4m memory , maxtor hd works real fine , windows playing patience \( sol \) minesweeper , suddenly system hangs ca n't move mouse anymore screen goes blank , nothing screen goes blank , computer seems reboot , stops reaching end memory test \( maybe even twice \) got message illegal kernel call something \( accompanied hex adress \) close button pressing , application would n't close , though n't experienced problem programs , 's mainly n't really used programs suspect hang anything known problem \( , better , patches available \? \) oh , forgot tell , , cmos ram , make computer faster \( higher bus speed , less wait states , enable caches etc \) , crash comes faster \( 10 min \) deliberately slow system \( slow bus speed , wait states , disable internal external cache , shadowing \) crash comes later , comes hope anyone help wouter hi , got problem , 486dx2 66 vlb , 4 mb ram , 170mb disk sometimes , switch computer , starts windows \( 3 1 dutch \) windows switches 1024x768 , switches back text mode exits dos one two resets , system works fine thanks patrick vu amsterdam
nodomain subject speedstar 24x windows enhanced mode reply nodomain \( \) lines 17 nntp posting host 7 597 hi , 486 66mhz sys based pc 8m ram problem best way configure high memory qemm 386max \? \? speedstar 24x video card use disk cache software problem running windows 3 1 enhanced mode high memory load stuff high \? note tried , recommended exclude region a000 c7ff windows insists starting standard mode suggestions \? dan
spitz ana med uni muenchen de \( richard spitz \) subject windows workgroups lan workplace reply spitz ana med uni muenchen de \( richard spitz \) organization inst f der , muenchen \( germany \) distribution comp os ms windows apps , comp os ms windows misc , comp os ms , world lines 30 flint waters uwyo edu \( flint waters \) writes anyone know possible use w4wg lan workplace dos time yup 're using work fine hopefully , someday wfwg communicate lwp tcpip right load netbeui use odi works well hey , sounds great mean w4wg works odi \? thought uses ndis problem lan workplace drivers uses , 'd hate load many drivers make w4wg work along read german computer magazine tcp ip support w4wg around corner anybody news \? regards , richard dr richard spitz internet spitz ana med uni muenchen de edv tel 49 89 7095 fax 49 89 7095 munich , germany
spitz ana med uni muenchen de \( richard spitz \) subject windows workgroups lan workplace reply spitz ana med uni muenchen de \( richard spitz \) organization inst f der , muenchen \( germany \) lines 33 flint waters uwyo edu \( flint waters \) writes anyone know possible use w4wg lan workplace dos time yup 're using work fine hopefully , someday wfwg communicate lwp tcpip right load netbeui use odi works well hey , sounds great mean w4wg works odi \? thought uses ndis problem lan workplace drivers uses , 'd hate load many drivers make w4wg work along read german computer magazine tcp ip support w4wg around corner anybody news \? regards , richard ps possibly caused dupe message message spread twice outside munich , please send short note would help debug news application dr richard spitz internet spitz ana med uni muenchen de edv tel 49 89 7095 fax 49 89 7095 munich , germany
iak cs joensuu fi \( k \) subject wallpaper windows 3 1 organization university joensuu lines 23 louray seas gwu edu \( michael panayiotakis \) writes utility available make windows randomly select one windows directory 's bmp files wallpaper file \? couple personally using , need change wallpaper , 've written short program vb using function bad news need dll run , dll \( program \) order pictures depends system date number bmp files directory , picture remains execute program multiple times day number changed feel need could uuencode email \( unavailable via ftp \) k joensuu fi iak cs joensuu fi cthulhu !
sp odin nosubdomain nodomain \( svein pedersen \) subject utility updating win ini system ini organization university tromsoe , norway lines 6 utility updating \( deleting , adding , changing \) ini files windows find ftp host \? svein
rnichols cbnewsg cb att com \( robert k nichols \) subject moving icons organization distribution na lines 15 article viamar uucp rutgers ! viamar ! kmembry writes remember reading program made windows icons run away mouse moved near anyone know name program ftp location \( probably cica \) 's program called icon included book stupid windows tricks bob ed \( addison wesley , 1992 \) 's freeware 's net anywhere , 'll happily email copy someone 's willing upload \( ca n't upload internet firewall \) bob nichols bell laboratories rnichols ihlpm ih att com
edb tih \( \) subject windows help nntp posting host beta edb tih organization trondheim college engineering x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 38 mario veraart \( fel tno nl \) wrote umyin ccu umanitoba ca \( yin \) writes hi , 's easy question windows gurus 'd appreciate help need write line help application n't windows software developer 's toolkit \( yet \) \) since want build hlp file around windows' help engine , hope wo n't complicated \? anyway , could someone kindly give hints build line help , take 100 pages explain \? complicated , would help point would need \? vincent q yin umyin ccu umanitoba ca hi , developed windows application must sdk sort contains hc exe exe file compile generate hlp files rtf files , u download \? \? zip ftp cica indiana edu package ms u need \( simple \? \) hlp files rich text format files \( rtf \) package also contains dot ms rtf files generated wordprocessor like word dos w4w solution specific application mario mario veraart tno physics electronics laboratory email fel tno nl hague netherlands else fails , show pretty pictures animated videos , n't talk performance , david bailey
gandalf fl bs dlr de \( \) subject truetype font mix times cyrillic organization dlr insitute flight guidance lines 13 nntp posting host fl bs dlr de hi i'm problem truetype fonts windows 3 1 installed cyrillic fonts found cica strange thing happens sometimes windows uses cyrillic supposed use times roman examples pc tools backup \( version 7 1 \) one line cyrillic text opening banner , next last line importing word windows text written times 2 also results cyrillic anyone idea look problem \? thanks institute flight guidance gandalf fl bs dlr de german aerospace research establishment \( dlr \)
aruit idca tds philips nl \( anton de ruiter \) subject \? \? \? top 30 windows applications \? \? \? organization digital equipment enterprise bv , apeldoorn , netherlands lines 36 hello everybody , searching \( business \) information windows application , create top 30 used , spreadsheets , drawing programs , schedulers fax programs , etc please mail information references summaries results media thank advance , anton de ruiter digital equipment corporation \) workgroup products \( \) \( \( \) \( \( ' \( \( \( ' \( \) ing anton de ruiter mba software product manager post office box 245 ' 7300 ae apeldoorn , netherlands \( \) \( \( \) \( \) 41 45 nr apeldoorn , netherlands \) mail ruiter \( \) \( \( \( \( 829 location apd f1 internet aruit idca tds philips nl \) \) uucp ! mcsun ! ! aruit \( \) \( ' \( \( \( \) phone 31 55 \( business \) phone 31 \( private \) fax 31 55
\( \) subject quicken 6 vs tobias' managing money organization purdue university lines 27 article 1993apr20 twg com , q twg com \( michael \) wrote got copy tobias' managing money v9 0 quicken 6 , 's wonderful things , mym seems features q6 n't example , q6 n't seem able handle monthly automatic deductions checking account \( know , monthly payment gets electronically deducted every month checking account \) something i'm right , q6 actually \? hi never used mym help comparison two products , however , devoted quicken user , tell set weekly , monthly , quarterly , yearly transactions first use memorize feature \( ctrl \) record recurring transactions next , define transaction group uses transactions specify frequency used \( e monthly \) quicken automatically make transactions , recall group individual transactions entered additionally using bill , remind transaction group due example , could three transaction groups one payments beginning month , middle month , one quarterly payments hope helps mike
j meyer informatik uni kl de \( joerg meyer \) subject pc speaker keywords video blaster speaker driver reply j meyer informatik uni kl de \( joerg meyer \) organization university kaiserslautern \( germany \) lines 28 software comes together designed work together soundblaster \( manufacturer \) since soundblaster possibility use pc speaker driver play audio files \( avi audio video interleave files \) \? think device driver media player controls pc speaker driver instead soundblaster card \( something like drv \) anybody heard driver \? wrong track \? information appreciated ! \( please send e mail , since n't watch group regularly \) v joerg meyer e mail j meyer informatik uni kl de university kaiserslautern , germany ooo u ooo space rent !
nswc wo nswc navy mil \( donald \) subject c7 link segment problem \( calling run time functions \) summary need help incorrect linking run time lib functions keywords c7 link runtime segment organization naval surface warfare center lines 40 small windows program get work program looks vaguely like char f1 80 int \( \( \( \) f1 , hello \) long far pascal \( \( \( \) f1 , hello \) using large model windows 3 1 linking without errors , rc program said sorting segments resources fast load section copying segment 1 \( bytes \) rc fatal error segment 1 information large load optimization make segment rc using k switch segment must using k switch seems interfere proper function second call anybody explain going fix \? thanks \( nswc wo nswc navy mil \)
am37 ellis uchicago edu \( \) subject utility updating win ini system ini reply am37 midway uchicago edu organization university chicago computing organizations lines 16 article 1993apr20 news uit sp odin nosubdomain nodomain \( svein pedersen \) writes utility updating \( deleting , adding , changing \) ini files windows find ftp host \? svein unless completely misunderstanding , try using either notepad sysedit exe \( found system subdirectory \) edit ini files sysedit exe program cool automatically opens win ini , system ini , autoexec bat config sys files edited \( am37 kimbark uchicago edu \)
david fuess subject mathcad 4 0 vs ndw 2 2 organization uc llnl lines 23 distribution usa nntp posting host talon llnl gov got phone technical service admitting problem unknown nature maple norton desktop windows clue time collecting configuration information systems exhibit problem anyone problems loading maple mathcad 4 0 ndw call technical support 617 577 1017 made schedule , actively working problem meantime , workaround provide configuration selection autoexec bat use progman \( yuk , pew \) whenever plan use maple ndw otherwise using norton place little menu screen 5 second timeout auto boot ndw david fuess dir , center eecs phone \( 510 \) 423 2436 fax \( 510 \) 422 lawrence livermore national laboratory
slc a2 cim cdc com \( steve chesney \) subject diamond speedstar 24x driver bug \? reply slc cdc com organization metaphase technology , inc keywords speedstar lines 23 since swapping generic vga card speedstar 24x , noticed two new problems create windowed ms dos session \( 386 mode \) , text starts scroll , rather printing characters starts print horizontal lines spill desktop trash entire display ctrl alt del terminates dos window restores desktop short time ncd 's pc x remote windows , characters displayed desktop changed unreadable unable restore without rebooting 256 16 color 800x600 drivers , large small fonts dos 5 , win 3 1 , emm386 smartdrv installed like speed card problems ideas \? thanks ! steve chesney slc catherine cim cdc com metaphase technology inc 612 482 \( voice \) north lexington avenue 612 482 4001 \( fax \) arden hills , mn
lookout mtt uswc uswest com \( david feldman \) subject trident 8900 cl 1280x1024 driver \? nntp posting host lookout organization u west information technologies lines 8 please excuse faq new trident based card claims 1280x1024 support drivers card indicate several 1280x1024 drivers diskette windows 3 1 make drivers diskette available configuration dialog box suggestion \? thanx please e mail uswest com
acifuent isluga puc cl \( alejandro cifuentes \) subject q change icons forever \? \? \? nntp posting host isluga puc cl organization pontificia universidad catolica de chile x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 lines 8 hi ! anyone knows change icon forever ever \? \? \? \? \? \? mean , program manager thanks advance ! alejandro cifuentes h acifuent isluga puc cl
bailey lut ac uk subject utility updating win ini system ini reply bailey lut ac uk \( adrian bailey \) organization loughborough university , uk lines 11 article 1993apr20 news uit sp odin nosubdomain nodomain \( svein pedersen \) writes utility updating \( deleting , adding , changing \) ini files windows find ftp host \? svein windows 3 0 built called sysedit exe need windows 3 1 n't know
ibm rz uni passau de subject color monochrome \? organization university passau germany lines 14 nntp posting host ibm rz uni passau de , 'd look maximum resolution combination video card screen would without flickering 'd suggest using color screen 800 600 without flickering small tastes 14 personally 'd prefer mono screen always quite windows open run one program time rarely switch maybe color worth trading smaller size want develop programs always check colors used 14 mono screen \( worst worlds \) surprised colors looked choose color screen regards , olaf
aew eosvcr wimsey bc ca \( alan walford \) subject ati ultra pro confirmation reply aew eosvcr wimsey bc ca organization eos systems inc , vancouver , b c , canada lines 25 heard many things ati ultra pro card positive negative could people please confirm \? \( interested eisa version particular \) 1 \) card work system 32m ram 2 \) card works 32m system switches set much slower 3 \) card interlaced 24bit \( true colour \) modes 4 \) latest build 59 drivers still work many cases 5 \) card fastest full colour card money 6 \) card greatest thing since sliced bread \) thanks feedback summarize al alan walford eos systems inc , vancouver , b c , canada tel 604 734 aew eosvcr wimsey bc ca uunet ! wimsey bc ca ! eosvcr ! aew
aew eosvcr wimsey bc ca \( alan walford \) subject workgroup questions \( ram licensing \) reply aew eosvcr wimsey bc ca organization eos systems inc , vancouver , b c , canada lines 37 would appreciative someone would answer questions windows workgroups currently novell netware lite work windows well conventional memory hog \( ver 1 1 \) considering moving machines w4wg q1 much conventional ram w4wg use driver network card \? q2 novell ne2000 card , lsl ipx drivers still needed \? q3 w4wg license check network ensure machine running copy w4wg \? \( note want break license agreement buy copy w4wg machines , would like try first see meets needs returning one opened copy much easier returning n opened copies \) q4 buy upgrade windows 3 1 w4wg replace win 3 1 install depend current win 3 1 files \? q5 install windows nt server comes , troubles w4wg machines \? started message , going ask 2 questions got carried away 'll stop \) look forward replies al alan walford eos systems inc , vancouver , b c , canada tel 604 734 aew eosvcr wimsey bc ca uunet ! wimsey bc ca ! eosvcr ! aew
keele ac uk \( j \) subject serial printing lines 16 distribution world nntp posting host seq1 cc keele ac uk summary output serial printer windows app \( e g works \) keywords works handshaking serial x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 hi , 've problems setups printing serial printer \( dmp laser \) used works windows write output ok dos send plain text output , anything fancy n't output exception 4 fast enough receiving data , bother handshaking messages i'm sure i'm alone 've tried print network manager options think anyone similar problems 've cured would like tell 'bout \? \? thanks john
nyx cs du edu \( david \) subject quicken 6 vs tobias' managing money x disclaimer nyx public access unix system run university denver denver community university neither control responsibility opinions users keywords quicken tobias organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept lines 89 article 1993apr20 twg com q twg com \( michael \) writes anyway , anyone aware study two programs \? someone give personal impressions \? maybe pc magazine , january 12 , 1993 review several personal finance management , pc computing , january 1993 pc world , december 1992 also articles quicken managing money email copies articles ca n't find library 've using managing money several years , several friends use quicken , though 've used overall impression quicken financial accounts manager managing money help completely manage finances features believe managing money quicken share ability keep records financial accounts checking , savings , charge , cash , reconcile account statements records program keeps ability make budget track spending budget module allow use bill paying service pay bills via modem ability print checks printer ability keep loan records set automatic loan payments ability import stock quotations keep accounts date know managing money automatically via modem quicken probably well , i'm sure ability export tax information popular tax preparation programs features believe managing money quicken tax prediction module looks accounts budget predict tax liability coming year 's usefull fine tune withholding uncle sam n't get due early insurance vital records module place keep records insurance policies well vital records also compute life expectancy financial analysis module computes compound interest , effects inflation , loan payments term interest , yield maturity bonds , savings account yields , days dates , loan schedules also functions help decide whether mortgage , whether afford particular home , whether particular rental property good investment , whether buy lease rent , whether particular investment 's cash flow adequate situation module also help plan retirement helping kids tuition net worth module place record assets liabilities net worth computed information assets liabilities recorded modules automatically included desk module includes small word processor , card file use store names , addresses , phone numbers vital information friends associates , perpetual , calculator , list , reminder list , appointment list , place record phone calls \( need track things \) appointments , list made display automatically start program probably things listed quicken , i'm almost sure quicken n't everything 've listed i'm wrong , i'm sure quicken devotees flame crisp one thing quicken managing money yet windows version software rumored working windows version managing money release late year hope information use 've found managing money usefull program keeping financial records hand know many people equally happy quicken quicken features need want , 'd go find managing money features quicken n't useful , think 's well worth price
baseball catch fever scd ucar edu \( gregg walters \) subject mathcad 4 0 swap file organization scientific computing divison ncar boulder , co lines 3 16mb memory 386sx running windows without swap file several months mathcad 4 0 happy , insist swap file \?
ntaib silver ucs indiana edu \( iskandar taib \) subject ms windows mature os \? keywords ms windows nntp posting host silver ucs indiana edu reply comp os ms windows advocacy organization indiana university distribution usa lines 66 article cyen ponder jesse writes hi , used mac system 6 x 7 x \? answer positive , would know ms windows mature os silly unix mature os \? depends ask , define mature system 7 , anything , less mature windows 3 1 days ago people doubted ms windows real os see question ms windows confuses many people microsoft simulated mac , lousy job example \( 1 \) create hierarchy groups way create group group \( know , please tell \) need something like create groups apple menu \? everyone knows apple menu items ripoff program manager want program launcher lots available \( 3 \) documentation 's easy find reason causes unpredictable error easy mac \? give break spent hours moving system extensions around restarting mac see certain app crashes time , find laughable \( 4 \) group deleting file deleting deleting group , users use file manager delete files users forget delete related files , disk full nonsense files oh great ever hear aliases \? wonder apple implemented \( 5 \) share problem create two windows compilation editing language \( w good editor \) , sharing problem open save program loaded makes sense prevent saving , opening eh \? \? n't follow 's means easy satisfy everybody , microsoft want keep reputations , evaluate user interface carefully products distribute find mac desktop incredibly annoying whenever use \? flame , please yeah right post flame bait , yet ask flames iskandar taib thing worse peach ala internet ntaib silver ucs indiana edu frog frog ala peach bitnet ntaib iubacs !
oddjob oz plymouth edu \( andrew c \) subject utility updating win ini system ini organization plymouth state college plymouth , nh lines 19 article 1993apr20 midway uchicago edu am37 midway uchicago edu writes unless completely misunderstanding , try using either notepad sysedit exe \( found system subdirectory \) edit ini files add sysedit \( regedit \) program group windows programs sysedit exe program cool automatically opens win ini , system ini , autoexec bat config sys files edited possible get load ini files \? \? \? \? \( am37 kimbark uchicago edu \) e mail un x oddjob oz plymouth edu vms psc plymouth edu disclaimer end user software provides avenue user week modification user friendly
dcoleman utxvms cc utexas edu \( daniel coleman \) subject ati ultra pro confirmation lines 41 nntp posting host blonde cc utexas edu organization university texas austin lines 41 article fn eosvcr wimsey bc ca , aew eosvcr wimsey bc ca \( alan walford \) writes heard many things ati ultra pro card positive negative could people please confirm \? \( interested eisa version particular \) 1 \) card work system 32m ram higher memory limits apply isa cards , far know vlb eisa version problems 2 \) card works 32m system switches set much slower , memory aperture need disabled ram \( eisa vlb \) 12 \( isa \) 32m problem 3 \) card interlaced 24bit \( true colour \) modes nope use 640x480 72hz , 24 bit 800x600 70hz , 24 bit , non interlaced 4 \) latest build 59 drivers still work many cases n't perfect , much improved n't recall last time leave mach 32 mode \( ati gup mode \) switch 8514 vga mode due software incompatibility 5 \) card fastest full colour card money 's quite fast , whether fastest open debate 6 \) card greatest thing since sliced bread \) like daniel matthew coleman internet dcoleman utxvms cc utexas edu dcoleman ccwf cc utexas edu university texas austin decnet utxvms dcoleman electrical computer engineering bitnet dcoleman utxvms bitnet
dcoleman utxvms cc utexas edu \( daniel coleman \) subject mathcad 4 0 swap file lines 28 nntp posting host blonde cc utexas edu organization university texas austin lines 28 article 1993apr20 ncar ucar edu , baseball catch fever scd ucar edu \( gregg walters \) writes 16mb memory 386sx running windows without swap file several months mathcad 4 0 happy , insist swap file \? got mathcad 4 0 , manual clear matter page 8 least 4 megabytes memory memory 640k configured xms least 8 megabytes virtual memory common sense suggests able run \( 4 8 12 16 \) new mathcad kinda , thus subject laws common sense dan daniel matthew coleman internet dcoleman utxvms cc utexas edu dcoleman ccwf cc utexas edu university texas austin decnet utxvms dcoleman electrical computer engineering bitnet dcoleman utxvms bitnet
subject microsoft mail workgroups via 96 usu edu \( wes james \) reply usu edu distribution world organization sun microsystems , inc nntp posting host usu edu lines 40 utah state university cooperative extension using w4wg wanted talk internet mail package got smtp gateway also need tcp ip transport package top utterly stupid 's require get smtp gateway work need dedicated pc gateway looking remote access need another dedicated pc remote mail stuff remote mail going indicate want glitch somewhere system though n't know ms mail , gateway vax campus choking mail sent scenario outgoing mail goes unix system routes mail needs go mail routed vax , vax problems times receiving mail messages get way except someone mail vax forwarded location main gotcha ever mail forwarded person gets message header message saying \( error garbage code stuff \) stay away sending vax ok system people course say vax problem , gateway probably problem anyone wants get help 175 00 one support call \( problem worked \) say looking vigorously better idea go forward find anything knew , please drop note anyone next supposed tcp ip built say w4wg good luck ! ! ! ! ! wes james email usu edu utah state university cooperative extension systems specialist 4900 voice \( 801 \) 750 logan , ut 4900 fax \( 801 \) 750
oasys dt navy mil subject ms windows mature os \? keywords ms windows reply oasys dt navy mil organization carderock division , nswc lines 12 article usenet ucs indiana edu comp os ms windows advocacy writes \( 1 \) create hierarchy groups way create group group \( know , please tell \) get norton desktop put groups within groups , groups desktop , icons desktop , etc chris oasys dt navy mil sig brought hull structures , code 741 local chevrolet carderock division , nswc
hu subject pc tcp windows organization university , budapest , hungary lines 14 hello , troubles using pc tcp \( printer redirection program lpr support \) windows print manager simply waits capture till end windows session , printer inactivity start printing anybody uses two programs together \? thanks , dept atomic physics , university budapest , hungary e mail hercules hu \( \) hu \( , internet \)
weber ucsd edu \( anthony v dean \) subject atm organization university california san diego lines 15 distribution world nntp posting host weber ucsd edu 've reading , much confusion , whether use atmanager lately , packages 've buying included atmanager bonus desktop publishing using pagemaker coreldraw coreldraw comes nifty laser disk contains 200 diff types add ttfonts come win31 decent amount fonts print creations hp4 postcript , 600 dpi resolution resolution enhancement technology well get darn good copies good n't diff whether atmanager turned worth run atm \? especially better printer technologies tt \?
dil admin mhs unc edu \( dave laudicina \) subject diamond ss 24x nntp posting host dil adp unc edu organization unc office information technology lines 11 anyone experienced faint shadow resolutions using card windows replaced card waiting latest drivers also experienced general protection fault errors wspdpsf drv winword tools option menu winfax setup ati ultra getting genral protection fault errors spss application card manufactures must terrible quality control let products market many bugs hassle running gateway 2000 dx2 50 thx dave l
dil admin mhs unc edu \( dave laudicina \) subject diamond ss 24x nntp posting host dil adp unc edu organization unc office information technology lines 9 anyone experienced faint shadow resolutions using card windows replaced card waiting latest drivers also experienced general protection fault errors wspdpsf drv winword tools option menu winfax setup ati ultra getting genral protection fault errors spss application card manufactures must terrible quality control let products market many bugs hassle running gateway 2000 dx2 50 thx dave l
ns1 cc lehigh edu \( phillip michael williams \) subject x windows windows organization lehigh university lines 7 x window servers run ms windows \? \? know seen action others \? \? thanks advance phil lehigh edu
richk grebyn com \( richard krehbiel \) subject wp pcf , linux , risc \? reply ghhwang csie nctu edu tw 's message sun , 18 apr 1993 06 28 02 gmt lines 22 organization grebyn timesharing , inc article c5o1yq m34 csie nctu edu tw ghhwang csie nctu edu tw \( ghhwang \) writes dear friend , risc means reduced instruction set computer risc usually small instruction set reduce circuit complex increase clock rate high performance read books computer architecture information risc risc used mean reduced instruction set computer , true still use acronym , familiar risc really means recently designed cpu \) general , risc cpus like large number \( 32 \) general purpose registers fixed instruction size , usually 32 bits instruction may make one memory reference memory references must aligned delayed branches \( branch next instruction \) target prediction bit \( probably wo n't branch \) instructions may complete order relative instruction stream richard krehbiel richk grebyn com os 2 2 0 amigados 386 comes along
sp odin \( svein pedersen \) subject utility updating win ini system ini organization university tromsoe , norway lines 11 sorry , tell exactly need need utility automatic updating \( deleting , adding , changing \) ini files windows program run dos program run script windows use utility updating win ini \( files \) find ftp host \? svein
auck irl cri nz \( david white \) subject quickly switch windows screen resolutions \? organization industrial research ltd , auckland , new zealand lines 16 distribution na nntp posting host kauri auck irl cri nz hydra gatech edu ccastco prism gatech edu \( constantinos malamas \) writes article cbnewsl cb att com slg slgsun att com \( idealistic cynic \) writes someone tell switch window 's screen resolution quickly easily \? know go back install , take look ftp cica indiana edu pub pc win3 \( util \? misc \? \) program zip 's close want want get win3 1 think george referring switch zip ftp pub pc win3 drivers video directory description reads switcher windows video mode switcher david white \( engineer , goon fan son dad \) internet auck irl cri nz fax 64 9 443 4737
kpc com \( phil \) subject ati ultra pro drivers \? bad ati ultra organization kubota pacific computer lines 39 article mayo edu , fisk mayo edu \( tom fisk 2d 337 stm 5 \) writes article news cso uiuc edu , ux4 cso uiuc edu \( robertson \) writes anybody know ftp site latest windows drivers ati gup \? thanks latest driver release 59 found ftp cica indiana edu pub pc win3 directory structure zip checked ati 's bbs last nite releases past 59 ati local bus card noticed get garbage around edges window move anybody else noticed also \? local bus card also , n't problems , second card 've gotten first card n't work vga mode correctly maybe still quality control problems would suggest checking ati \( went vendor bought card since problem showed immediately \) never able get ati 's technical support number sure like way card performs though 2mb ati ultra pro local bus , fast even mode cheers , phil tom thomas b fisk internet fisk mayo edu mayo clinic n't know voice \( 507 \) 255 200 first street sw 're going 'll never fax \( 507 \) 255 mail stop 2d 337 stm get rochester , mn philip kpc com \( 408 \) 987 kubota pacific computers , inc
com \( rodger wagner \) subject running c exe windows 3 1 reply com organization great west life assurance company x disclaimer views expressed message individual great west life assurance company necessarily reflect company lines 17 preface novice user best windows environment trying execute ms c 7 0 executable program accesses database build ascii file execute windows screen goes blank pc locks way return reset machine anyone insight may order program correctly windows \? \( way runs fine dos 5 0 \) system gateway 486 ati graphics ultra card 640x480 help would greatly appreciated rodger
waikato ac nz subject win3 1 font organization university waikato , hamilton , new zealand lines 11 greetings green new zealand looking windows 3 1 font allow \( \) upper lower cases use characters windows applications thanks advance stuart \( email directly waikato ac nz would prefered method contact \)
james dlss2 \( james cummings \) subject borland 's paradox offer organization development distribution usa lines 13 article cvbnetprime com prime com \( tom belmonte \) writes considering buying borland 's paradox windows since would like use database windows \( n't use one yet \) work home use would like advantage borland 's 129 95 april 30 offer package everything borland claims , wondering anybody used opinions \? yes , 's pretty much claim n't time try considering price , even decide n't like , next 2 3 months \( price goes \) 's humble opinion , powerful access
james dlss2 \( james cummings \) subject cool bmp files \? \? organization development distribution usa lines 1021 article 1993apr17 023017 17301 gmuvax2 gmu edu rwang gmuvax2 gmu edu \( john wang \) writes hi , everybody guess subject said getting boring looking old bmp files came windows , wondering body beautiful bmp file share maybe somebody tell ftp site bmp files , like scenery files , animals files , etc used , unfortunately delete anyway could give help , please \? \? \? response different kinda wallpaper , 's use think original gif whatever called real artist name logo lower right corner need vga think , sized 800x600 256 color screens use windows directory tile hope enjoy begin cut begin 666 ntreal bmp m0dtv5p 8 h \( , ! ! p ! \( ! ! f cd , 56 ! m4pa 4h p l , 1 u \) n l0 \( ! 4wa ! , j 0 b h 9tj3 kkzp 0 , , td4i zgb0 ! \) uh \( 0a 6e ! 4b ! ! ! bbzx ! e1 \) bv 3 1 \) d8 \) h \( 5 q 65 ! \( \( g ' qp ! , 6d l0 ! v4 p \( 0 0 9 , \( p ' , 1 \) , 07 bz 8h c , gh p ! 2 \( 1a ! 2 ! h ! 1 \? xp \( \( f ! ! , 6 \( d0 i6 ! 20 4 b dy m2 \( \( ' 2a \( f bp 4 01 2 ! \( ' , \( c e1 ! fd \( , 6 \( nd v8 5' 4 \( ! e 8 g4 \( '2 ! ! \( 0 ! \) 4 pq p ! u 2 a1 h \( 8 ' mi \? x \) ! ! \( h ' q0 6 b4 ! ! 0 v c 3p 8 ! z p , 1h o3 1 8 ! 9 7 , 6 ! n \( q 8 w 4 ! tf d000 , 4 \( \( \( 0 8 , h jz 0 0 ! 7 , \) b \( 2 p 2h c2 0 ' , 8 ! 4 \) m5 7 g \( n ! yi l 6' k7 5r l 4j ! c0 ! ! 670 \( 0 m6 0 9p 6b j \( ! \) xp , q p 5 \( \) pi 58 , pi f 7 u 0 , 4 , 302 kr ! ! 7l ati 2 i0 rt \( z 0 0 \( 8 9 3 n ! ! ! \( 88 ! 2 ox k0 ! 6 7l \) ! 0 b ol 6 p ! \( 0 8 ! \) p 0 ! 0 0 p h 80 r 53 \) ' o0 a3 , g '1 k ' , l 2m ! p 4 ! 6 k 0a ! hy x 4a \( ! \? zp 98 z 4 \( 2p ! 5 \) b 4 ! b \( ' , lq \( l 1 'q l \? w w \? w k w \? w \? w \? vl p r z6e mi k4u 34u 4 0d 0d \) p \) ql 6ql 0el 6ql ql 0el 0em 6um 0d 6t 6eu 6eu 74u 6ei 74i 74u , k4u , 2e 0em w4u 1 ! \) c6 tt ! 5r g \( 4 ! 6g l 4 u5 \) 6 x 7 \( 4mn 45 \? 30 u m86 , , 4 \? gq \? g u 4 l \) \) \) \) \) \) p 45 145 14 q7 \) y24 \) ! a4 0d \) ! e \) ! 0c 1 w ! 147 ! 14 vm 1 '1t \? c \? 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'q r ' r r 2 o1t '1t o22 \) w \) m25 145 1 ' ! ! a86 a84t 5 ! h ! g 9p \) 0d \) 0em 3 p jp k p jrlk \( \? u7 r bxn b w mb w f k 6ei 3 \) , fei \) iz \) 3 \( rz b \? w 8n k h oo , \? o4u um 6um 0em 32 \) s0t 3p \) a87p \( 6 \? \( 7p \) \) \? mj bhj ! nhj , j bhj bh pd \) 0em 0d \) 0d \) j \? qj 0 \) 1d , , ! \) rvn c7 , 3r xw r r w r r \) 0d \) 0d , ! kr r ms r w r w r r xv mr \) , ' r rvn c1 w q mr n \) 24 \? rho m3 z6ei 6eu 74u \) 6umu um 3ym 6t 0el 6p \) 0d \) 6p \) el 0d \) 0d \) 0em 0d 6t \) 0d \) 0d \) 0d \) 0d \) \) r \) s0g \) r \) s0g 0g 0t 0g \) s0g g \) r \) r 0t \) s0t \) x6 a86 a86 p \( 6 a85 a85 0d \) p cx , 4 \) r \( ! m8 tt ! 34u r a3' r \? gy r 94 g 1m 8 ' \) k6 iw \) 4 0d \) el 0d \) \) 3x 45 144e \) \) 45 ! p ma86 \) a86 a4 \) 1 \) 24e \) 7 \) \) 25 145 145 p45 144e \) mn ' r '1r ' r o1te \) r \) ' r \) te \) 25 145 7 ! 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' , r gq 98 ' \( 4 j ! ! 1r ! mu 1m 6t \) 0d \) 0el 0dg \) r g a4 \) el 0d \) 0d \) 0d \) 6s \? m25 145 145 145 125 145 m45 \) \) \) 45 1 ! ma86 04 \) \) r g \) r g \) \) r \( 6 0g 0g ' ! a4 0g ! pa7 ! p47 ! 145 145 147 ! 145 1 5 14 0o td ! l \? 0 mw w \? j \? u \? 7ut 4e \) 1 e \) 6um 3 u lw jp mk \( n bxn p kr k lq , 1m 0d \) 124e \) 8 ec 7 g9p 9v g 0g \? p ta \? p \( 4t \) s0t 0t \) s3 0t g \) r l 6ql fp \) 6umu 0q , \? mx h jp j h lw lq q , \? o4u 34 6um 6um 6t \) 9t 5 \) vp \) 0d \) 6umu 0qu ' 'c l kx cx cx 8 7 0 ' u e \? , 4 u \? ! 0d \) 6p \) 6ql 6p \) 3x \) cy ! 45 \) 45 nej 6ej 7 0d 6ql ' g' g9v g9v g9v g9t ! 0t ! \) 145 \) \( ok \( \( b \( \( ! 6um \( \( z \( b \( b \( b k \( nok \( b \( ba \( 2 x 5 0g \) 4g 0g 0g \) x6 cx ! 8 31 x2 4 tt ! u , ttu r l 4 mt7 v \) 6g \) 8 , \( '1 \) r u5 \? gq 4 ei8 m5 ' \( , \? sw r 8mg \) r6 r6 \( u6 ' \) 6t 0d \) 0d \) \) 2 g \) s2 a4 \) \) 6ql 0d \) \) \) 4g \? 25 1 5 125 1 5 14 u145 q24e \) \) 24 \) 24e \) 24e145 p0g ! p \( 6 \) \) 0d \) 0d \) 0d \) ' a86 0h5 0h6 a4 \) 0g ! 145 10e 145 p45 1 ' ! p47 ! 147 ! 145 oy 3dy 'ay 3d 3dy ! 3dy 1 0 3 \? w \? \? w h 406 \) 6umu q 3 lw kp mk h pw o4 34 6t \) 0d \) \) r g \) 8 cx ! g m9v g9p ! g 0t \) s0g g \) x6 a84g \? p \) p g \) 5 \) s0g \) vp \) 0d \) 0d \) 6w4 , 0q s' l \? \? oo n kr h h lq , g \) pd \) 0dg 6 \) r l 0d \) 0em 6w4u ' , \? sx , ! cx mu , ! d' ' 7 ! 4 tui 98 qz \( p , ud ! 8k k 0 \) p \) 6p \) 0d \) p \) 6p 0e ! 142 \( t0 6h nej 7 j mi 74u 9m 0d \) 0el \) ! 0 ! 0 ! g9v g9v g9v g0 \( 6 a86 2 'n e \) \( b z cb \( 6r \( \( \( \( ! 6un chz \( b \( cf 0g \) s0g 2 \? , \) r p \) r , 4f u \? 1 g \) r 5 ng g \) r ! \) g \? l g5 m8 v 6 \) 84 1 6t \) 6p \) 0d \) 0d \) 0d \) \) p 0g ! 0d \) 0d \) 0d \) \? 25 1 1 5 1 \) n \? 24e \) 2 \) 45 145 144 ! e \) 0d \) p \) 6ql 0d \) 0d \) 0d \) a4 a85 0h5 a85 0g ! p ' ! 147 ! 1 1 145 145 14 3d 'dy 3dy 3dy 3dy dy 3a 0 1 \) w \? w hj \? 704 4 \) 0d \) 6umu 0q q l kr k rl jr k rl h u o4u um 0d \) 2 g 0g r q 27 f g9v g ! g \) s0t \) s0g \( 6 \( 6 \( 7p p 3p g \) s3 0g 0t \) s0g 0d \) 0d \) 0emu 34 , \? lq lw \? lw pk l h jr mo h \? , 3' , \? , 3 \) \) r \) 0dg ym 24 0d \) 0em 6um , 3 q cx k p ! cx , ! 335 umn \) \) 6p \) 6p \) 0d \) p \) p \) fr 07 ! p \( 6 \( 5l z6ei 6ei 6ei 6eu 4 cx \) 0el g \) ap 9v g9v g9v g0 \) 4ta \? 45 145 \) 27 1 m0d a86 cb \( bq 6r \) \( bq ok6um 6r \( kz okz \( \( b 6um 6um \) r \) s0t 2 \? 6 tt j 36g g \) 304 34t ! 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' u ' em 0d \) 0d \) 0el 0el 0el 1k g \) x6 r ' 4 \? \? m45 1 \) 145 q 7 \) \) 45 107 ! ! \) 0d fum ft \) 0d \) 0el \? a86 a86 a86 \( 6 p m45 1w 3 \? w 3d2 3dy 3ax 'a 3ax 'a 3dy 3dy 3d \? 3dw hj hj 7ut ! \) \) 0em 34u ' s' w r mk h h w 3 , 6t \) 0dg \) s0t \) s2 a5 sh \) m9v g9v , g \) r ta \? \) s0g \) r \) g \) s0g ! 07 ! ! el 0d \) 34u ' , \? lq lw l ol n j k r k , \? o4u 1m 1m 6pg a5 p45 p ' ! 1y k mhj ft \) k h ks cx 8 335 cx 8 s5 ! 1y 94 , \? g6 ! x k6 5 g \) 0d \) 6ql 0d \) \) 6p \) 6ql 0d \) p \) fp \) mu 2f \) 0d \) 0d \) p \) e \) 0h6 4 a4 \) \) v g9v g9t 9t ! ' 9v \) 0 cb \( bz ok6um \( kz pl pl zt ! 6r \( \( kz kr \( \( ! x 0t ma86 a86 \( b \( b \( \( b \( g \( , ! 34uiw 1 61 4u 7 \) ryt 4 , x \( mm 4 k5 c' j \) 0d \) 0d \) 0d \) 0d \) 0el 2 \) y1 ! ' ! ' r \) p45 145 \) m45 \) 45 145 q4 \) 45 145 1 el ql 6ql 0d \) 6umu \) 6t \) 0d \) 6pg \) r \) x6 a86 a86 \( \( a4 \) a7 ! 1w 3dy gd 3 \? 2 3dw 3a 'dy 3dy 3dy 3dy 3dy ! hw \? j \? mw \? \) r 0emu 34u 0q , \? lq 3 n ph w , \? lq 34 6t \) \) 0t 1 \? g9v g9v 4f a84g 0t g \) \? \) gx g \) 0d \) \) 0em 6w4u 0q s' lw \? ks ol r j h k , \? o4u 1m 6um 0g ! 145 125 \) 2 \? tz rvn 4 \) 0 cx , ! \( p , ! s5 p oqy 8 \( 5 , ! iw v 94 \? \) 6p \) 0el 6p \) 0el \) ql ql 3x \) p \) g4u 34u , h \) em 6p \) p \) \( q4 \) g9v g9t ' ! 8 mx 9p \( b \( z \( b \( \( z pl pl ! \( b z 6r \( kz okz z kz okz \( ! 6 n ! v g0 \( b ka okz 8c \? '5 0 u 7 \( 9 34u 7 , \( 5 \( 9 iz 0 uy \? '6 ur 0' ! 0d \) 6p \) 0d \) 0d \) 0el el ge r \) y2 47 ! 122 ' \? q '1 '1t \) 24e \) 45 145 145 145 q45 145 1 m45 145 \) 45 1 \) 6p \) 0d \) 0d \) 6um 0emu 34u 0d \) 0d \) \) x6 \) r g \) x6 a86 \) x6 \) x6 a86 a86 a3 1rm \? \? w dy \) w 3dy 3dy ax 'ax 'dy 'ax 'ay 3dy 3dy 3 \? dw 3 \? 3 \? \? 07 a2 \) pem 6w4u 3 h lw ph u u 1m 6t \) 0d \) ma86 a86 a84g \) s0g \( 5 \) cx u 0 ! g9p ! g g0 \) \) 12 \? \) \( 6 a7 \) r g \) r 0g \) r g \) r gx \) 0d \) 0d \) 0d \) 0em 0d 0q , 7ax pj n r p p j h , \? o4u um 6t \) u1 p45 124 r ov g \? pg dt \( 6 u 0g ! ! \? \? 7 c6 p h p , 8h , u , 30 u u 7 \) ro ! 0d \) 0d \) 0d \) 0d \) 6p \) 6p \) 6p \) el 6p \) el 0 \) 3x \) ql 6pg e8 ' 0 \) 4 ! 1 5 147 ! 144e \) 27 p 0 9v g9v \) y24 \( 6 e4 ! \( b mq mg \( \( z plx b 0 cb kz ok6um \( \( 2 \( 2 \( 6 9v \( 6um n x x 34u 35r , 4 34u \? ! 36g f 7g5 \? '5 h ! ' g ' u g miz 4q v j ! 3h \) 0el 0d \) 0el \) 0d \) 0t \) r l p45 1 m24 'q \) 2 145 p 145 145 145 m45 145 145 145 \) 0el 0em 0d \) 3x 3x \) u 2f 1m 6t \) 0d \) 0d \) \) r g \) r \? p p a2 g \) r g \) r g g \) ! \? 7u \? w dw 3d2 c \? dy 3dy 3a 3dy 3dy 3dy 3dy 3 \? 3 \? ! \) g 0em 34u 0q 34u lq s' \? s' u 1m 0em 0d \) 85 ! ' ! p ' a86 \) s0t 1 ! ap ! g9v g9v g9t 0g \) r g \) r g \) r l 6p \) 0d \) 0d 6um 6um 3ym 6um 6w4u ' ol n h kr j j \( lw 1m 6um 5 145 145 1 \) 1t \? q \? 'q \) pdt \) s0t \) \( 6 0m ! a5 ' 7 pk l w \? x \? 6 ! iw 4 3 r \? 1 ml 0 \) 0el 0d \) 0d \) 0d \) 0d \) \) p \) 0el 6p \) 0d \) 34u 2fu \) 0el \? ! pt 9v g f k \) m24e \) 485 9v g' g9v g0 0g 1 r 145 1x \( \( nok \( \( cf \( \( \( \( pl pl pl 2 \( ! v \( b z ok6um \( \( ! \( 6 ok \( h5 34u 7 \) r6 945 35r \( h vm r 985 mf 4 pan n u f dt ! \) 6ql \) 6p \) ql \) r \) s0g \) \( \) \) o1 'q ' o1te \) 24e145 144 p45 1 5 p45 145 145 145 \) 0d \) 0d \) 0d 0em mu em 6um 0em 6t \) 6pg \) vp \) 2 g 0g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r 04 4 q ! \? w 3dw 3d2 3dy gd 3dy 3ax 'ax 'ay dx 3dy 3d 3dy 3d 3dw 3 \? p ' ! pa86 \) , l 6umu 3 , \? lq , \? lw 3 0d \) 0d \) 0f a7 ! p p ' ! pa86 a30g \) \? ! m9v g9p ! g9v g 0t 2m ' a7 a30t 0g g \) r g 0el 0d \) 6t \) 3ym 6umu 1m 6w4 1mu 1x 'ax lw l ks kp h mo j k h k p h \? um 0d \) q24e \) r \? ' cx mv \) r 4 pa86 0g ! pa7 ! lw lw cx , ! ! x 3 v5 7x g5 u qx 3 , lk rog \) \) \) 0d \) 0d \) 6p \) 0el 0d \) p \) 0el 6w \) el u 9 , j qn g e w o2 cb \( b \( \( ba \( pl pl plx \( b \( bz 6r \( okz pl plx pl pl mkr \( b z ok6um 6r \( \( \( \( 6um \( tt ! r \) 35 g \( 4q k5 sy ky \( 4 m6 0s k p 4 \? \( 4 eh ! g 0d \) p \) 0d \) m25 \) q' \) r e \) 1l 'ax j \) x5 45 \) 22 4 \? q ' 4 o1te \) 45 1 1 145 14 u145 145 l \) em 3ym 6t 0em 6t \) u 34 1m 3ym cx ft \) 0d \) g \) r g \) r g 6p \) 0d \) \) 24 \) \? 3 \? 3dy 3d \? 3d 3dy 3dy 3dy 3dy 3dw 3d 3dy 1p ! ! \) 6w4u 2h , 7 q s' lq u 34 6um 0d \) 85 a7 pa4 0g f g9v g9v g9v m0 \) \) x6 \) vp \) 6t \) 0d 6um fum 1mu 0qu 34 mu w4 7ax l l l ks r rlk p bzp k p j o4u 1m 0d \) 0e ! 145 14 o22 \) 'qcx esh \) s0g end cut
spang camosun bc ca \( barker \) subject wp pcf , linux , risc \? organization camosun college , victoria b c , canada x newsreader tin 1 1 pl4 lines 47 leebr ecf toronto edu \( lee brian \) writes article 1qu8ud 2hd sunb ocs mq edu au eugene mpce mq edu au writes article c5o1yq m34 csie nctu edu tw ghhwang csie nctu edu tw \( ghhwang \) writes dear friend , risc means reduced instruction set computer risc usually small instruction set reduce circuit complex increase clock rate high performance read books computer architecture information risc hmm authority risc \) clearly remember reading instruction set risc cpus rather large difference addressing modes risc instruction sets orthogonal cisc original riscs small instruction sets , simple ones idea \) every instruction single clock cycle b \) microcode c \) extensive comparisons \( patterson reduced instruction set computers 1 , 1985 \) cpu year instructions microcode ibm 370 168 1973 208 dec vax 11 780 1978 303 ibm 801 1980 120 0 ucb risc 1 1982 39 0 stanford mips 1983 55 0 researching vlsi vax , dec discovered 60 vax microcode support 20 instruction set accounted mere 0 2 instructions executed 32 architecture onto single chip used software emulator complex instructions , full vlsi included entire instruction set , 5 10 times 20 faster cpu chips microcode transistors 32 2 64k vlsi 9 real barker , computer science dept , camosun college , victoria b c email \( camosun bc ca \) phone 1 604 370
organization arizona state university james cassidy asuacad bitnet subject norton desktop vs norton util 's ep lines 22 purchased norton desktop windows , also norton utilities installed ndw , wanted rem line installed ep \( ep \) command invoke image utility replaced image command new image command invokes version image came ndw makes sense , presumably image version ndw newer one nu , however , install autoexec two questions 1 nu use image data saved newer version image invoked e two version image compatable \? 2 erase protect use info , vice versa \? use dos windows , want make sure erase files either environment , going protected experiments run , two programs \( erase protect smart erase \) n't use others info currently ep loading within autoexec , n't see conflicts fyi norton desktop windows version 2 2 norton util 's version 6 thanks help
russ deakin oz au \( russ sharp \) subject character missing ttf organization deakin university , victoria , australia lines 22 nntp posting host ariel eng deakin oz au word 2 0c n't show period centred character indicate spaces use ttfonts coreldraw editors need able see many spaces text character displayed large hollow box overlap characters side , useless believe character used w4w period centred \( 0183 \) character shows windows display hollow box tends confirm edited corel font changing font graphics 0183 character makes difference font output w4w altering paragraph \( \) \( \) alter font graphics displayed however ! ! w4w character used indicate spaces period centred character \? anyone able get character displayed coreldraw ttf \? russ sharp russ deakin edu au ph \( 052 \) 27 1141 fax \( 052 \) 27 2015 deakin university , school engineering technology , , australia
shenoy iastate edu \( shiva shenoy \) subject windows help organization iowa state university , ames ia lines 53 1993apr20 fel tno nl fel tno nl \( mario veraart \) writes umyin ccu umanitoba ca \( yin \) writes hi , 's easy question windows gurus 'd appreciate help need write line help application n't windows software developer 's toolkit \( yet \) \) since want build hlp file around windows' help engine , hope wo n't complicated \? anyway , could someone kindly give hints build line help , take 100 pages explain \? complicated , would help point would need \? vincent q yin umyin ccu umanitoba ca hi , developed windows application must sdk sort contains hc exe exe file compile generate hlp files rtf files rtf files generated wordprocessor like word dos w4w need sdk need \( get free \) location ftp cica indiana edu index pub pc win3 index first get pub pc win3 uploads zip \( 1 3m \) contains help compiler among things free microsoft get \( think free \) dir pub pc win3 files zip , zip zip shareware dir pub pc win3 util files zip , zip , zip dir pub pc win3 winword files zip \( macros word 2 0 convert doc hlp files \) shiva shenoy e mail shenoy iastate edu black , dept , isu , ames , ia 50010 office \( 515 \) 294 shiva shenoy e mail shenoy iastate edu black , dept , isu , ames , ia 50010 office \( 515 \) 294
anik crhc uiuc edu \( anik \) subject losing dark colors icons organization center reliable high performance computing lines 19 nntp posting host lyra crhc uiuc edu annoying problem whenever save icon contains dark colors like dark red dark purple , colors converted bright colors happens every icon editor including image editor came sdk n't problem bmp files either ico files icon libraries problem icon colormap field icon file header checking file binary editor , see masks ok editing colormap manually \( copying another icon n't edit \) fix colors anybody know may causing problem \? thanks anik , u illinois urbana champaign center reliable high performance computing e mail anik crhc uiuc edu
msbendts mtu edu \( bendtsen \) subject utility updating win ini system ini organization michigan technological university x newsreader tin 1 1 pl4 lines 37 sp odin \( svein pedersen \) writes sorry , tell exactly need need utility automatic updating \( deleting , adding , changing \) ini files windows program run dos program run script windows use utility updating win ini \( files \) find ftp host \? svein well , latest windows magazine , advertisement program help uninstall windows apps harddisk \( \) used update network , deleting , adding changing ini files \( , inc 79 1 800 922 \) also looking ini pc network , far without luck time pushing dos 's batch language limit look dos 5 0 's \( dos 6 0 command , maybe even less improved \) replace command use update users personal files master set batch file run everytime invoke windows basically color schemes , need neat , job i'm looking better solution though mike know profit service mike bendtsen \( msbendts mtu edu \) 740 elm st apt 4 senior technical consultant hancock , mi michigan technological university
neff123 garnet berkeley edu \( stephen kearney \) subject ms windows mature os \? organization university california , berkeley lines 10 nntp posting host garnet berkeley edu find mac desktop incredibly annoying whenever use \? \? many computer literate people see advantages system act like mac ate cat lighten !
wild access digex com \( wildstrom \) subject mathcad 4 0 swap file organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 12 nntp posting host access digex net baseball catch fever scd ucar edu \( gregg walters \) writes 16mb memory 386sx running windows without swap file several months mathcad 4 0 happy , insist swap file \? presumeably , mean without permanent swap file windows needs swap file , create one permanent one n't exist permanent generally faster though n't know mathcad would n't happy either type ver 3 0 program win specification
calloway hp com \( frank calloway \) subject windows 3 1 slower using dos 6 \? \? \? \? organization hewlett packard co , , co lines 3 system frank calloway
ak333 cleveland freenet edu \( martin linsenbigler \) subject icons gone organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 26 reply ak333 cleveland freenet edu \( martin linsenbigler \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu previous article , cs ulowell edu \( \) says i'm sure proper place post icons win3 1 program manager need restore files seem disk think must better way installing everything thanks help ! hmmmmm know happened also sure caused think might system error dumped windows came back well except groups program manager empty grp files directory groups new group selection icons files inside groups still working fine groups gone program manager strange ! ! ! ! c ya artin communication sent artin university arizona tucson ak333 cleveland freenet edu mlinsenb ccit arizona edu mlinsenb arizvms death dead 2 , 000 years follow king kings
mlipsie std com \( mike lipsie mpu \) subject atm organization mitsubishi electric research laboratories , inc lines 27 article network ucsd edu weber ucsd edu \( anthony v dean \) writes 've reading , much confusion , whether use atmanager lately , packages 've buying included atmanager bonus adobe years desktop publishing using pagemaker coreldraw coreldraw comes nifty laser disk contains 200 diff types add ttfonts come win31 decent amount fonts print creations hp4 postcript , 600 dpi resolution resolution enhancement technology well get darn good copies good n't diff whether atmanager turned worth run atm \? especially better printer technologies tt \? fonts available ps fonts ps font want use , use atm otherwise , waste system resources personally , use mike lipsie \( work \) mlipsie ca com mitsubishi electronic research laboratory \( home \) mikel uucp
bishop baeyer chem fsu edu \( greg bishop \) subject diamond ss 24x organization physics department , fsu news software vax vms vnews reply bishop baeyer chem fsu edu lines 25 anyone experienced faint shadow resolutions using card windows replaced card waiting latest drivers also experienced general protection fault errors wspdpsf drv winword tools option menu winfax setup ati ultra getting genral protection fault errors spss application card manufactures must terrible quality control let products market many bugs hassle running gateway 2000 dx2 50 thx dave l used version 1 17 drivers win 3 1 new 2 03 drivers none problems gpf 's feeling problems card drivers ati ultra drivers considered reliable market , ss 24x ones seem quite good well maybe check bios problems gateway know people gateway dx2 's , found problem compatibility especially graphics gpf 's ever directly attributable using abusing applications even got newest drivers diamond people started complaining still one small problem , hardware cursor slightly jumpy writes reads swap file greg bishop
nntp posting host 134 58 96 14 wimvh liris tew kuleuven ac \( wim van holder \) distribution world organization k u leuven applied economic sciences department subject winqvtnet ndis token ring \? lines 13 possible use winqvt net machine uses ndis connect token ring \? tried older versions \( 3 2 \) got invalid packet class error something like regards , wim van holder universiteit leuven tel 32 \( 0 \) 16 28 57 16 departement e w fax 32 \( 0 \) 16 28 57 99 2 b 3000 leuven e mail wimvh liris tew kuleuven ac belgium cc1 kuleuven ac
nntp posting host 134 58 96 14 wimvh liris tew kuleuven ac \( wim van holder \) distribution world organization k u leuven applied economic sciences department subject trumpet windows news readers lines 18 i'm looking decent windows news reader 've given 0 76 since n't work well winsock dll ibm tcp ip dos 2 1 status trumpet windows \? use windows sockets \? liked dos abandon since started using ndis access token ring \( results invalid class error \( bye ! wim van holder universiteit leuven tel 32 \( 0 \) 16 28 57 16 departement e w fax 32 \( 0 \) 16 28 57 99 2 b 3000 leuven e mail wimvh liris tew kuleuven ac belgium cc1 kuleuven ac
bcasavan cougar ecn uoknor edu \( brent casavant \) subject diamond viper summary want information nntp posting host cougar ecn uoknor edu organization engineering computer network , university oklahoma , norman , ok , usa keywords problems \? lines 16 hi folks , end summer i'm planning getting new computer \( 486dx50 486dx2 66 \) poking around computer shopper anyway saw ads diamond viper \( local bus , 2mb memory , 50 million winmarks \) wondering anyone experience \( good bad worth money etc \) information would nice also , questions anyone know good cheap 15 1024x768 ni monitor \? good cd rom drive meets mpc standards controlled via scsi \? 250mb tape drive scsi \? thanks time , brent casavant bcasavan mailhost ecn uoknor edu
stud cs uit \( \) subject mode organization university tromsoe lines 1 i'm looking information w nt uses mode \( hw support \)
athena mit edu \( daniel \) subject utility updating win ini system ini organization massachusetts institute technology lines 28 distribution world nntp posting host w20 575 72 mit edu article 1993apr20 oz plymouth edu , oddjob oz plymouth edu \( andrew c \) writes article 1993apr20 midway uchicago edu am37 midway uchicago edu writes unless completely misunderstanding , try using either notepad sysedit exe \( found system subdirectory \) edit ini files add sysedit \( regedit \) program group windows programs sysedit exe program cool automatically opens win ini , system ini , autoexec bat config sys files edited possible get load ini files \? \? \? \? program run , loads 4 configuration files autoexec bat , config sys , win ini , system ini open entry file menu edit four files need edit program 's ini file , use notepad ascii editor wonder whether microsoft intended sysedit used , testing period forgot take reason think absolutely mention manuals program , online help \( entry file menu \) program looks like something intended internal use 's kind shame , though would made nice multi file replacement notepad daniel athena mit edu massachusetts institute technology
ashok biochemistry cwru edu \( ashok aiyar \) subject trumpet windows news readers organization cwru school medicine lines 22 distribution world nntp posting host axa12 slip dialin cwru edu article 1993apr21 liris tew kuleuven ac wimvh liris tew kuleuven ac \( wim van holder \) writes status trumpet windows \? use windows sockets \? liked dos abandon since started using ndis access token ring \( results invalid class error \( speak peter tattam , fairly sure planning winsock compliant version definitely make initial public release wintrumpet , follow shortly thereafter currently wintrumpet late beta looks like excellent product , several features beyond dos version wintrumpet supports trumpet tcp , novell lwp , also direct packet driver version people using dis pkt shim ashok ashok aiyar mail ashok biochemistry cwru edu department biochemistry tel \( 216 \) 368 3300 cwru school medicine , cleveland , ohio fax \( 216 \) 368 4544
dericks plains nodak edu \( dale erickson \) subject telix problem article ns1 organization north dakota higher education computing network lines 9 nntp posting host plains nodak edu use telix \( kermit \) win 3 1 , use telix exiting windows dos , telix find serial port ideas solve problem find information , send email send news group thanks dale erickson dericks plains nodak edu
subject black screen death , windows , novell miavx1 acs muohio edu organization miami university academic computer service lines 23 hi , running 120 node token ring windows 3 1 novell 3 11 every , run black screen death , phrase coined robert x recent infoworld column basically , sometimes quit windows , screen goes black get nice little flashing cursor top left corner screen also , sometimes exit dos , effect occurs hints microsoft novell patch windows' virtual interrupt controller may solve neither company seems know talking call anyone else noticed phenomenon \? fix \? response welcome peter sweeney miavx1 acs muohio edu
dericks plains nodak edu \( dale erickson \) subject telix problem nntp posting host plains nodak edu organization north dakota higher education computing network lines 9 use telix \( kermit \) win 3 1 , use telix exiting windows dos , telix find serial port ideas solve problem find information , send email send news group thanks dale erickson dericks plains nodak edu
keele ac uk \( j \) subject serial printing windows lines 12 distribution world nntp posting host seq1 cc keele ac uk x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 getting garbled output serial printing thru windows works etc occurred several systems goes laserjet 4 used suspect need handshaking case due capacity \( memory speed \) problem printing dos obvious i'm missing i'm sure problem thanks reading john
nickel ucs indiana edu \( raymond w foster \) subject windows speaker sound driver nntp posting host nickel ucs indiana edu organization indiana university lines 14 article unix portal com claebaur shell portal com \( tony annese \) writes article 1993apr19 mnemosyne cs du edu alee mnemosyne cs du edu \( alec lee \) writes ftp site get ms speaker sound driver \? 's sound exe file claims driver i'm suspicious since 's drv file thats file clarify little sound exe self expanding archive contains driver \( actually called speaker drv , think \) ray
baseball catch fever scd ucar edu \( gregg walters \) subject mathcad 4 0 swap file \? organization scientific computing divison ncar boulder , co lines 119 reposting summarizing , information additional comment long 16mb memory 386sx \( 25 mhz \) , intel math coprocessor , 120mb hard drive 20mb free \( compression \) running mathcad 3 1 , windows 3 1 enhanced mode , 5mb ram drive , 2mb 1mb smart drive , swap file \( permanent temporary \) several months interested faster mathcad 4 0 , concerned reported swap file requirements legitimacy 's claim increased speed 386sx users mathcad 4 0 run without swap file , insist use swap file \? far , response less detailed description setup , unrelated postings , informed answers , net e mail , appear 1 \) fuess llnl gov \( david fuess \) according , mathcad uses swap file extensively physical resources say actually win32s feature figure 10mb indicated minimum might try anyway ! 2 \) bert tyler com \( bert tyler \) i'm certain mathcad culprit 486 66dx2 16mb main memory \( less 2mb ramdisk bit dos session opened part startup process \) , running without swapfile installed win32s subsystem march beta nt sdk , win32s subsystem demanded presence swapfile win32s program 've run date 32 bit version came subsystem gave windows small temporary swapfile \( i'm leery files must remain fixed locations hard disk \) , seems well 3 \) bca ece cmu edu \( brian c anderson \) win32 \? upgraded mathcad 4 0 installed directory win32 windows system upgrade told win32 required 4 \) student tc umn edu \( steven v case 1 \) mathcad 4 0 makes use win32s libraries 've probably heard win32s , 32 bit windows library provides much windows nt functionality \( support threads multitasking \) run windows 3 1 5 \) chem edu \( thomas c rhyne \) also 16 mb ram , indeed mathcad 4 0 insisted permanent swapfile would run otherwise 6 \) bishop baeyer chem fsu edu \( greg bishop \) 3 \) mathcad absolutely requires 4mb ram \( 12mb swap file \) 8mb ram \( 8mb swap file \) give enough memory error swap file less 8mb major resource hog load symbolic processor smart math , takes 5mb ram \( real virtual \) load \( , due win32s libraries seems addition system requirements shown 's advertisement 4 0 , need swap file , possibly big 12mb looks like would need 8mb swap file , would need choose \( \? \) faster permanent swap file , slower temporary swap file apparently win32 subsystem ships mathcad 4 0 much disk space require \? also received answers 1 \) uxa ecn bgu edu \( dale \) 've got 16 megs ram , configure ram disk mathcad \? dos 6 permits different bootup configurations mathcad 4 0 win32 configured use ram drive instead swap file \? , n't see using dos 6 0 alternate bootup would provide windows swap file time back remember discussion issues using ram drive support swap file , thought involved slower , 8mb systems dos 6 0 various reasons yet done full installation way , full installation dos 6 0 required avail oneself alternate bootup feature \? files installation disks required \? 2 \) wild access digex com \( wildstrom \) presumeably , mean without permanent swap file windows needs swap file , create one permanent one n't exist permanent generally faster though n't know mathcad would n't happy either type ver 3 0 program win specification far , 16mb enough ram avoid overhead running swap file running mathcad 3 1 windows 3 1 without one
downs helios nevada edu \( lamont downs \) subject win nt \? \? \? lines 18 nntp posting host cat lv lib nevada edu organization unlv anyone tell chicago windows 4 would differ os 2 2 x \? believe , i'm trying start flame war , i'm simply curious going feature advantage either products \( consider fact uncle bills seal approval much feature \) one difference probably difference os2 windows 3 x one likely lot software available one wo n't \( emulation , inevitable incompatibilities crop spite contrary claims , n't count use certain software package n't quite run properly emulation \) developers want channel resources toward platform large installed base , case like platform successfully marketed \( regardless relative sophistication \) win lamont downs downs nevada edu
downs helios nevada edu \( lamont downs \) subject atm lines 15 nntp posting host cat lv lib nevada edu organization unlv good n't diff whether atmanager turned worth run atm \? especially better printer technologies tt \? fonts available ps fonts ps font want use , use atm otherwise , waste system resources , need use service bureau 're set use type 1 fonts 've heard \( pure hearsay \) results tt fonts type 1 good using high quality type 1 fonts first place lamont downs downs nevada edu
david fuess subject windows 3 1 slower using dos 6 \? \? \? \? organization uc llnl lines 15 distribution usa nntp posting host talon llnl gov article hp com calloway hp com \( frank calloway \) writes system frank calloway mine , either ! david fuess dir , center eecs phone \( 510 \) 423 2436 fax \( 510 \) 422 lawrence livermore national laboratory
shrike und ac za \( simon bernstein \) subject boca woes organization university natal \( durban \) , south africa lines 25 nntp posting host shrike und ac za x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 hi interesting problems boca graphics card , based cirrus logic chipset \( sure exactly one \) problem follows use windows driver 800x600 except 64k colour driver \( ie 16 colour 256 colour \) , image screen becomes tall amount resizing monitor make fit use excel 64k colour driver , hangs soon loads anyone used card experienced anything similar please reply mail , post solutions regards simon simon bernstein man condemned free \( \) university natal , durban shrike und ac za irc
idx com subject help w greenleaf 4 0 \? organization idx corporation , burlington , vt lines 8 anyone experience new greenleaf 4 0 \? ca n't even get demo run 4800 baud without dropping characters , steve steve \( \) idx systems corp boston , massachusetts idx com
masika bnr ca \( nicholas masika \) subject filemanager strange sizes summary line lines 25 reply masika bnr ca organization bell northern research noticed filemanager something strange recently usually , line bottom filemanager \( status bar , guess \) displays total disk space total number bytes current selection select whole bunch files , get exact byte count recently , notice incorrectly displays count 's ! select file , say , 532 bytes , correctly displays select select file 23 , 482 bytes , displays , 23 kbytes , 23 bytes ! select 893 , 352 report 893 bytes selection select meg worth files , say 3 , 356 , 345 reports 3 bytes ! 's 's got problem displaying 3 characters ! system 486dx 33 , 8m memory , stacker 3 0 , dos 5 , win 3 1 've run latest virus scanners \( , f prot \) n't report anything could unknowingly altered something controls formatting status bar \? nicholas masika , masika bnr ca bell northern research , ottawa \( 613 \) 765 fax 765 development operations
cgordon vpnet chi il us \( gordon hlavenka \) subject save hard disk \? ! \( allocation error , cross linked \) organization vpnet public access lines 137 brad banko writes running ms quick c compiler dos window windows 3 1 evening , got program violated system integrity close applications , exit windows restart computer error , love windows \) 1 \) easy way restore everything working order \? might better approaches \? 'll probably want delete damaged executables reload fresh data files examined repaired 2 \) might caused \? smartdrv cache make vulnerable \? \( i'm suspicious hard drive caches especially cache data writing \) 're stupid smartdrive caches things , windows also runs swap file may contain data also pretty risky stuff pc environment straightforward approach would run chkdsk f option fix disk looks like would probably reinstall windows things reasonably accurate prediction 's brief description dos stores files three pieces file directory entry , fat chain , data area think sheet lined notebook paper , sheet graph paper , stack cards directory entry \( notebook paper \) holds file name , actual size , first cluster number also holds information 's important right file allocation table \( fat \) chain \( graph paper \) tells find actual data square graph paper holds number number zero , cluster associated box available holds magic number , either last piece file bad \( unuseable \) spot disk number tells cluster contains next section file data area \( cards \) actual information stored data area organized clusters fixed size storage chunks one cluster \( case , one cluster 2048 bytes \) cluster filled , another allocated read file , first look directory entry get starting cluster number read data cluster next , look fat entry cluster read tell cluster number next chunk file naturally , numbers usually sequential , jump around even go backwards continue reading , one cluster time , walk chain fat , hit marker says 's last cluster file chkdsk dos utility checks sanity coherence directories fat bludgeon flaws submission n't intelligence , double check anything fixes let 's bit post c gfx vpic46 cvpic exe c gfx vpic46 vpic txt c gfx vpic46 video7 cfg c gfx vpic46 cfg c gfx vpic46 vga cfg c game goose x c winmisc adv21 winadv exe allocation error , size adjusted files sizes \( according fat \) n't match size reported directory entries chkdsk f alter directory entries match fat size \( words , directory entry cvpic exe may say file 64 , 877 bytes long chkdsk found fat chain 43 clusters attached \( numbers , obviously , made \) \) 316 lost allocation units found 224 chains bytes disk space would freed disk space found allocated fat , attached directory entry chkdsk f gives option converting lost chains files examine files \( \) rename discard , tell chkdsk convert files , clusters simply marked available fat c gfx vpic46 cvpic exe cross linked allocation unit c par cross linked allocation unit files referencing data cluster obviously , one \( least \) must wrong 's interesting note c par windows swap file fix , copy cross linked file new name fix cross link giving files unique data spaces delete cross linked files examine copies try assemble properly good luck \( hint missing pieces likely found lost chains top \) bytes total disk space bytes 4 hidden files bytes 67 directories bytes user files bytes available disk disk pretty close full may actual cause problem perhaps windows needed expand swapfile amount exceeded available disk space case , short summary something trashed fat utilities mirror fat help repair damage something like , run problem occurs sorry gordon hlavenka cgordon vpnet chi il us vote straight ticket procrastination party dec 3rd ! gordon hlavenka cgordon vpnet chi il us vote straight ticket procrastination party dec 3rd !
wam umd edu subject diamond speedstar driver v3 1 nntp posting host next02cville wam umd edu reply wam umd edu organization workstations maryland , university maryland , college park lines 21 article bu edu rem bu edu \( robert mee \) writes looking win31 driver \( set \) diamond speedstar 1mb video card anybody know archive site \? looked cica drivers stealth card generic et4000 cards one specifically speedstar one \? diamond dropped speedstar driver development loop looked cica yesterday noticed n't anything , seem remember seeing something wuarchive mirrors msdos windows3 directory think got 3 1 drivers america online though wam umd edu marc president inc job play games hobby consult
taybh hpsgm2 sgp hp com \( beng hang tay \) subject cirrus logic 5426 graph card organization hp singapore notes server lines 17 comp os ms windows misc , gardner kosmos wcc govt nz \( andy gardner \) writes article news cs tu berlin de , wong cs tu berlin de \( wolfgang jung \) writes version 1 3 drivers due release cirrus soon unfortunately , available via ftp , dial bbs usa nz using 14 4k modem cut phone bills took around 7 minutes download v1 2 driver could please upload ftp sites \( ftp indiana edu \) announce \? benefit people access bbs usa \( like \) \) \? thanks lot beng hang tay
ls116 cunixa cc columbia edu \( lei shao \) subject truetype fonts display print nntp posting host cunixa cc columbia edu reply ls116 cunixa cc columbia edu \( lei shao \) organization columbia university distribution na lines 31 article 1993apr17 mintaka lcs mit edu avinash silver lcs mit edu \( avinash chopde \) writes installed new truetype font ms windows 3 1 though applications display font correctly screen , quite fail print document correctly \( laserjet 4 non postscript printer \) use font coreldraw , document prints correctly , assume coreldraw knows font downloaded printer use windows accessory write , printer prints square boxes place characters new font yet , write display font correctly screen looked windows laserjet manuals , got nowhere make statement truetype fonts print exactly see screen assume windows knows font downloaded automatically , make \? \? \? \? appreciate help assume 're using driver available cica \( hp4 zip \) bring setup screen printer control panel click options button brings another screen choices change graphics mode hp gl 2 raster check box print truetype graphics \( available choose raster \) able print truetype fonts correctly good luck lei shao ls116 cunixa cc columbia edu
aew eosvcr wimsey bc ca \( alan walford \) subject summary ati graphics ultra questions etc reply aew eosvcr wimsey bc ca organization eos systems inc , vancouver , b c , canada lines 147 interested new ati ultra cards posted questions regarding new ati ultra pro cards asked confirmation opinions message summary responses thanks replied 1 \) card work system 32m ram \) higher memory limits apply isa cards , far know vlb eisa version problems b \) i'm pretty sure experience isa version n't work systems 16m ram supposed way switching memory aperture feature prevent , apparently n't work posted help messages net people indicated eisa card n't problem c \) false \) vlb card , , allows set memory aperture 32m using configuration software messing jumpers necessary 32m problem probably valid isa cards 2 \) card works 32m system switches set much slower \) , memory aperture need disabled ram \( eisa vlb \) 12 \( isa \) 32m problem b \) dunno c \) depends bus yes isa , eisa localbus 3 \) card interlaced 24bit \( true colour \) modes \) nope use 640x480 72hz , 24 bit 800x600 70hz , 24 bit , non interlaced b \) yes according pc magazine , 've tested local bus version 1024x768 24 bit may may interlaced c \) pro sometimes plus modes may run interlaced certain monitors nothing 24 bits screen size note 24 bit color windows must 2 megs , memory size calculations notwithstanding 4 \) latest build 59 drivers still work many cases \) n't perfect , much improved n't recall last time leave mach 32 mode \( ati gup mode \) switch 8514 vga mode due software incompatibility b \) true many people recommended going back build 55 54 c \) appear excellent , bugs example , certain graphs dashed lines mathcad 3 1 print correctly , though display ok screen par fancy cards accelerated cards also bugs \) overall , like card , even driver performance somewhat less satisfactory running 1024 768 16 color mode nt driver october nt version seems allow say color performance quite nice diamond stealth vram , able try lot options old driver 5 \) card fastest full colour card money \) 's quite fast , whether fastest open debate b \) yes 'll admit fast 16 bit mode , wanted use bad crashed \( many different ways \) every 20 minutes c \) depends many many things 6 \) card greatest thing since sliced bread \) \) like b \) well pc magazine seems think c \) yes , appears true \) \) greatest thing since sliced bread , doubt better cards coming knows , maybe ati come something faster yet several reviews read rated one winjet card superior performer cheaper price except availability drivers , developing time \( pc magazine , two months back \) overall , card lot potential , able use end questions discussed items group thought needed confirmation familiar card included summary \( ati ad since n't graphics ultra yet \) ati graphics ultra plus accelerated 1024x768 65k colours true colour \( 16 7m \) 800x600 multimedia video acceleration \( video , rle video 1 compressed \) stretch full motion video windows full size fast vga includes 3 button mouse \( isa versions \) anti aliased fonts \( ed avail 16 colour mode , think \) real time pan zoom across large virtual windows desktop around 1 2 length card size priced 400 u ati graphics ultra pro everything graphics ultra plus faster performance accelerated 1280x1024 256 colours non interlaced available isa , eisa microchannel priced 600 u ati technologies \( 416 \) 756 hope summary use al p associated ati technologies way used previous ati ultra card years \( generally liked \) alan walford eos systems inc , vancouver , b c , canada tel 604 734 aew eosvcr wimsey bc ca uunet ! wimsey bc ca ! eosvcr ! aew
netcom com \( angel \) subject printing dos organization houses holy lines 11 also problem nec p7 , went away turned print directly parallel port option printer setup tract und netcom com
shiva leland stanford edu \( matt jacobson \) subject windows errors bad memory organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa lines 18 hi last question year mail order name notebook 4 meg ram never problems huge ramdisk running desqview , win3 1 0 constantly crash , commonly citing memory parity error thing turn boot cmos ticks counts memory every startup , never problem either could bug windows copy instead hardware \? remember disk error problems installing change could make lessen frequency likelyhood happening \( think win vs win produce different crashes , crash frequently nonetheless \) know pain , please answer email home account n't rn stop asking questions thank chet pager uct ac za
joel tekgen bv tek com \( joseph look \) subject bar code fonts organization tektronix , inc lines 3 looking bar code fonts especially code 3 9 anybody know ftp sites bbs download types fonts \? please email info thanks !
lei rtsg mot com \( peter p lei \) subject dos 6 vfintd 386 windows sys ini nntp posting host organization motorola inc , cellular infrastructure group lines 11 anyone know vfintd 386 device used windows 3 1 \? 's 386enh section device c dos vfintd 386 upgrading dos 6 several machines \( different types \) , include , n't ideas \? pl
servis author ecn purdue edu \( brian k servis \) subject books writing thesis wfw \? \? \? keywords wfw , thesis organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 23 hi , wondering anyone knows books give helpful hints tips writing thesis papers wfw know dissertation template comes word want would like tips use seq , , index , chapter , fields available word looked help files , etc really n't explain whole lot post results \( means email first \) get lot different suggestions since think might help lots crazy grad students thanks brian servis p change font help uses printing topic \? default choppy hard read servis author ecn purdue edu happened way actual quotes insurance claims say may think say may pedestrian idea purdue thinks way go , ran
mcbride ohsu edu \( mcbride \) subject trumpet windows news readers article ohsu mcbride 126 organization oregon health sciences university lines 31 nntp posting host 137 53 60 24 article ashok 653 0 biochemistry cwru edu ashok biochemistry cwru edu \( ashok aiyar \) writes article 1993apr21 liris tew kuleuven ac wimvh liris tew kuleuven ac \( wim van holder \) writes status trumpet windows \? use windows sockets \? stuff deleted currently wintrumpet late beta looks like excellent product , several features beyond dos version wintrumpet supports trumpet tcp , novell lwp , also direct packet driver version people using dis pkt shim ashok ashok aiyar mail ashok biochemistry cwru edu department biochemistry tel \( 216 \) 368 3300 cwru school medicine , cleveland , ohio fax \( 216 \) 368 4544 's gonna cost \? mcbride oregon health sciences university mcbride ohsu edu networks technical services purpose writing inflate weak ideas , obscure poor reasoning , inhibit clarity little practice , writing intimidating fog \( academia , come \) calvin hobbes
jls antares \( jon sweet \) subject x windows windows organization nasa larc lines 11 distribution world reply jls antares nntp posting host antares larc nasa gov pc xview ncd , hcl exceed hummingbird software ! opinions expressed nobody else wants ! jls antares larc nasa gov jon l sweet
gmills chemical watstar uwaterloo ca \( phil trodwell \) subject cica mirror \? lines 10 organization university waterloo ftp cica indiana edu mirror n't ! busy \? thanks phil trodwell space 'd happy ram goddam 440 volt cattle rent prod tub right , \( cheap \) radio ! hunter thompson
thomas datamark co nz \( thomas beagle \) subject winqvtnet ndis token ring \? organization datamark international ltd lines 14 article 1993apr21 liris tew kuleuven ac wimvh liris tew kuleuven ac \( wim van holder \) writes possible use winqvt net machine uses ndis connect token ring \? tried older versions \( 3 2 \) got invalid packet class error something like attempting \? using dis program \? provides packet driver top ndis driver thomas beagle thomas datamark co nz work 64 4 233 8186 technical writer thomas welly gen nz home 64 4 499 3832 , wellington , nz hound hire work dog \( \) \( \)
subject utility updating win ini system ini stephen gibson sonoma edu stephen gibson distribution world organization sonoma state university nntp posting host computer ctr sonoma edu x useragent nuntius v1 1 lines 32 article 1993apr20 news uit svein pedersen , sp odin writes sorry , tell exactly need need utility automatic updating \( deleting , adding , changing \) ini files windows program run dos program run script windows use utility updating win ini \( files \) find ftp host \? svein managing pc 's novell network , get network management tools provided either sabre software automated design systems among many features , 'll find utilities help manage ini files stored users' workstations home directories commercial software well worth money date , found anything available via ftp could compare reply address sig info stephen gibson , system support specialist sonoma state university email sonoma edu stephen gibson sonoma edu
djserian flash lakeheadu ca \( reincarnation elvis \) subject speeding windows keywords speed lines 19 386 33 8 megs memory noticed lately use programs like corel draw computer boggs becomes really sluggish ! increase performance \? turn loading wallpapers stuff like help comes running speed windows programs run \? thanx advance derek derek j p e mail djserian flash lakeheadu ca 'o o' sociologist 's 106 miles chicago , 've got full tank \( \) lakehead university gas , half pack cigarettes , 's dark , u thunder bay , ontario 're wearing sunglasses elwood blues
jon trust anu edu au \( jon \) subject windows multiple monitors 10m apart organization , national uni lines 16 distribution world nntp posting host 150 203 15 182 hi , working gathering data way users use computers involves getting subjects type use mouse want able watch without room would ideal could watch session another monitor without subjects knowledge believe monitor cable work short distances , ie 5m need approx 10m away , cable travels pc 's connected tcp ip network run windows 3 1 software allow watch happening another pc \? thanks regards jon trust project
hayesj rintintin colorado edu \( hayes james michael jr \) subject \? order files written windows \? nntp posting host rintintin colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 22 trying pin point hardware problem disk , maxtor group files get corrupted regular basis happens drive , one corrupt file year control winword c 32 bit disk access smartdrive since installation dblspace problem turned annoyance reason murder since frequent files corrupted grp files , last thing written windows \? also , pd shareware utilities available thorough job dos 6 , ndd 4 5 , etc \? dos 6 win 3 1 compatable thanks mike hayes knowledge good faber college motto www knowledge thoroughness poly motto unemployed tech , , thank ! groucho marx , 'a day races' driven banging head engineering physics 4 years
ebosco us oracle com \( eric bosco \) subject quickly switch windows screen resolutions \? nntp posting host monica us oracle com reply ebosco us oracle com organization oracle corp , redwood shores ca distribution na x disclaimer message written unauthenticated user oracle corporation opinions expressed user necessarily oracle lines 27 article cbnewsl cb att com slg slgsun att com \( idealistic cynic \) writes someone tell switch window 's screen resolution quickly easily \? know go back install , 'd really like ability change couple startup configuration files resolution changed already video drivers need system , n't problem thanks , sean sean l gilley sean l gilley att com use address , others bounce ! 614 236 \( h \) , 614 860 \( w \) shareware program called v switch zip n't remember wuarchive wustl edu ftp cica indiana edu easy use job problem eric ebosco us oracle com
ebosco us oracle com \( eric bosco \) subject windows speaker sound driver nntp posting host monica us oracle com reply ebosco us oracle com organization oracle corp , redwood shores ca x disclaimer message written unauthenticated user oracle corporation opinions expressed user necessarily oracle lines 15 article 1993apr19 mnemosyne cs du edu alee mnemosyne cs du edu \( alec lee \) writes ftp site get ms speaker sound driver \? 's sound exe file claims driver i'm suspicious since 's drv file thanks alec lee sound exe actually self extracting script includes drv file works great ! eric
ashok biochemistry cwru edu \( ashok aiyar \) subject trumpet windows news readers organization cwru school medicine lines 26 nntp posting host axa12 slip dialin cwru edu article mcbride 126 ohsu edu mcbride ohsu edu \( mcbride \) writes article ashok 653 0 biochemistry cwru edu ashok biochemistry cwru edu \( ashok aiyar \) writes currently wintrumpet late beta looks like excellent product , several features beyond dos version wintrumpet supports trumpet tcp , novell lwp , also direct packet driver version people using dis pkt shim 's gonna cost \? , speak peter tattam , understanding shareware status trumpet 1 05 dos , imagine registration fees similar also believe new version trumpet dos released sometime near future ashok ashok aiyar mail ashok biochemistry cwru edu department biochemistry tel \( 216 \) 368 3300 cwru school medicine , cleveland , ohio fax \( 216 \) 368 4544
ak333 cleveland freenet edu \( martin linsenbigler \) subject emm386 exe windows dos6 organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 37 reply ak333 cleveland freenet edu \( martin linsenbigler \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu previous article , cs kuleuven ac \( rudi \) says windows created permanent swap file win3 1 recommended \( 32bit access \) use emm386 exe , win3 1 startup memory free , leave emm386 exe config sys memory free , windows recommends swap file think need emm386 exe noems let expanded mem active use , therefore give extended mem windows yet bases covered use dos6 , memmaker , 4mb internal memory 486dx , use dos6 familiar anybody knows happening \( possibly win needs umb 's manage virtual memory \? , true , umb 's , emm386 find without including suspicious parts \? \) need optimized dos environment , develop applications dos using windows programming environment rudi c ya artin communication sent artin university arizona tucson ak333 cleveland freenet edu mlinsenb ccit arizona edu mlinsenb arizvms death dead 2 , 000 years follow king kings
fred cis udel edu \( peter \) subject win3 1 use math co processor \? nntp posting host fred cis udel edu organization university delaware , newark lines 6 pc one , windows 3 1 use math co processor \? i'm talking specific apps , os \( want call \) \? please respond email peter \( cis udel edu \)
kasajian netcom com \( kenneth kasajian \) subject use mouse non windows applications ms windows \? organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 23 wnkretz ikesg1 energietechnik uni stuttgart de \( oliver kretzschmar \) writes hey , could somebody tell , possible work mouse non windows application , runs window use ms windows 3 1 clipper applications exists routines something else \? please mail informations thanks efforts , oliver name kretzschmar inst ike university stuttgart phone 49 711 685 2130 pfaffenwaldring 31 fax 49 711 685 2010 7000 stuttgart 80 email wnkretz ikesg1 energietechnik uni stuttgart de simple mouse com mouse sys loaded dos run windows note n't need files loaded use mouse windows
watts tansu com au \( ralf rutherford \) subject workgroup questions \( ram licensing \) organization cssc lines 59 distribution world reply watts tansu com au nntp posting host watts cssc melb tansu com au article eosvcr wimsey bc ca , aew eosvcr wimsey bc ca \( alan walford \) writes would appreciative someone would answer questions windows workgroups currently novell netware lite work windows well conventional memory hog \( ver 1 1 \) considering moving machines w4wg q1 much conventional ram w4wg use driver network card \? 2 without novell 3 11 support q2 novell ne2000 card , lsl ipx drivers still needed \? q3 w4wg license check network ensure machine running copy w4wg \? \( note want break license agreement buy copy w4wg machines , would like try first see meets needs returning one opened copy much easier returning n opened copies \) q4 buy upgrade windows 3 1 w4wg replace win 3 1 install depend current win 3 1 files \? nearly q5 install windows nt server comes , troubles w4wg machines \? run mixed beta w4wg , problem apart printer sharing \( beta problem \) started message , going ask 2 questions got carried away 'll stop \) problems mouse drivers using w4wg windows 3 1 n't , seems critical port problem network card running , changed , everything allright , think ami bios well look forward replies al alan walford eos systems inc , vancouver , b c , canada tel 604 734 aew eosvcr wimsey bc ca uunet ! wimsey bc ca ! eosvcr ! aew ralf rutherford telecom aust cssc melb tansu com au network services snail 700 rd , clayton vic 3168 software solutions australia center melbourne phone 61 3 253 fax 61 3 265
mb4008 \( morgan j bullard \) subject speeding windows keywords speed organization university illinois urbana lines 30 djserian flash lakeheadu ca \( reincarnation elvis \) writes 386 33 8 megs memory noticed lately use programs like corel draw computer boggs becomes really sluggish ! increase performance \? turn loading wallpapers stuff like help comes running speed windows programs run \? thanx advance derek 1 \) make sure hard drive defragmented speed windows btw use something like norton 's pc tools 2 \) think leaving wall paper use less ram therefore speed machine could wrong 's good chance 've already done may speed things good luck morgan bullard mb4008 cen uiuc edu uxa cso uiuc edu derek j p e mail djserian flash lakeheadu ca 'o o' sociologist 's 106 miles chicago , 've got full tank \( \) lakehead university gas , half pack cigarettes , 's dark , u thunder bay , ontario 're wearing sunglasses elwood blues
alee mnemosyne cs du edu \( alec lee \) subject comm drv replacement organization university denver , dept math comp sci lines 15 recent post bbs could download replacement comm drv \( win 3 x \) fixed lot problems high speed modems anyone know ftp site get \? thanks , alec lee alec lee diana cair du edu \( 303 \) 871 alee cs du edu sexy \? 's wrong sexy nigel tufnel , spinal tap
nj us \( tony \) subject filemanager strange sizes summary line organization lost space lines 32 1993apr21 bnr ca masika bnr ca \( nicholas masika \) writes noticed filemanager something strange recently usually , line bottom filemanager \( status bar , guess \) displays total disk space total number bytes current selection select whole bunch files , get exact byte count recently , notice incorrectly displays count 's ! select file , say , 532 bytes , correctly displays select select file 23 , 482 bytes , displays , 23 kbytes , 23 bytes ! select 893 , 352 report 893 bytes selection select meg worth files , say 3 , 356 , 345 reports 3 bytes ! 's 's got problem displaying 3 characters ! system 486dx 33 , 8m memory , stacker 3 0 , dos 5 , win 3 1 've run latest virus scanners \( , f prot \) n't report anything could unknowingly altered something controls formatting status bar \? sounds like something one may set 1000 's panel \( international \) makes 23 , 482 look like 23 482 file manager chopping thinks decimal part file size 3 , 356 , 345 becomes 3 356 345 , , file manager confused decimal points , chopping everything right first period tony nj us ci , 452 uucp ! uunet ! ! p k skip , captain usenet fantasy bowling league team 9
cbnewsh cb att com \( kenneth r \) subject quicken 6 vs tobias' managing money organization distribution usa keywords quicken tobias lines 19 've never quicken use mym 's early days ms money windows financial planning package called reality technologies money magazine p also taxes turbo tax packages good way none really support really need manage finances first company comes along windows based package manages budgets accounts manages loans taxes uses knowledge investing philosophy help invest right investment vehicles , integrates together business life ken attmail com
subject cornerstone dualpage driver wanted ebc ee \( \) nntp posting host ebc ee x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 13 lines 13 looking window 3 1 driver cornerstone dualpage \( cornerstone technology , inc \) video card anybody know , \? one \? thanks info , nis nis \( ebc ee \)
aisun1 ai uga edu \( mark msai \) subject printer security keywords printers , security attacked midnight , phantom printer users , rack 100s utilities allow multiple passwords access nntp posting host aisun1 ai uga edu organization ai programs , university georgia , athens lines 8 mark programs ai uga edu university georgia athens , georgia 30602
jpaparel cs ulowell edu \( joseph paparella \) subject cica mirror \? organization umass lowell computer science lines 2 find 's always \( almost anyway \) busy dial , try repeatedly , usually 5 15 tries , always get connected
jpaparel cs ulowell edu \( joseph paparella \) subject mouse com3 windows 3 1 \? organization umass lowell computer science lines 8 've pursued researched question last month requirements long short windows mouse drivers n't accept mice com1 com2 using irq4 irq3 unless buy special drivers someone 've talked mouse systems say driver n't support com1 com2 , claim releasing one soon ! \? \? alternative seems possible , one case expensive , e 4 port card 600 \? \? \? \? \? \? ! ! , , author \( \) windows claim 4 port serial card buffered 16550 uarts drivers windows match \( e com3 irq5 \) 120 second paragraph hearsay , n't checked yet intend soon free 120 g hope save steps
rnichols cbnewsg cb att com \( robert k nichols \) subject atm organization lines 39 article network ucsd edu weber ucsd edu \( anthony v dean \) writes 've reading , much confusion , whether use atmanager lately , packages 've buying included atmanager bonus desktop publishing using pagemaker coreldraw coreldraw comes nifty laser disk contains 200 diff types add ttfonts come win31 decent amount fonts print creations hp4 postcript , 600 dpi resolution resolution enhancement technology well get darn good copies good n't diff whether atmanager turned worth run atm \? especially better printer technologies tt \? atm nothing truetype fonts truetype fonts sufficient needs , n't run atm lot fonts install either type 1 postscript \( atm \) truetype noticed 1 truetype font files least 1 3 larger type 1 equivalents using disk compressor , though , aware truetype fonts compress , whereas type 1 fonts \( encrypted \) 2 300 dpi laser printer , artificial bold version truetype font original , forcing install actual bold \( bold italic , etc \) variants want use type 1 postscript fonts atm generate visually distinct bold variant base font realize artificial bold font atm generates aesthetically inferior hand generated bold truetype variant , sufficient needs , install bold variants saves 50 disk space \( uncompressed \) bob nichols bell laboratories rnichols ihlpm ih att com
organization university central florida computer services mark woodruff cda90038 ucf1vm bitnet subject many people one machine lines 9 several people sharing machine would like set separate environments windows way setting things separate desktops directories \? ideally , 'd like totally separate virtual machines 'd willing settle less , may end batch files copy ini files around depending wants use machine mark alas , setup n n't work n't network
bca ece cmu edu \( brian c anderson \) subject binary files terminal unix originator bca packard ece cmu edu keywords terminal , kermit , unix lines 15 reply bca ece cmu edu \( brian c anderson \) organization electrical computer engineering , carnegie mellon distribution cmu i'm attempting transfer files home computer running windows 3 1 terminal workstation school file transfer protocol home kermit binary files i'm running kermit workstation school setting file transfer protocol binary unable upload files school download files school home download , terminal displays ther message several times message ' verify 're using correct anyone ideas fix \? either e mail post group thanks , advance , brian anderson go pens make 14 row
paladin world std com \( thomas g schlatter \) subject \? order files written windows \? organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 31 article 1993apr22 ucsu colorado edu hayesj rintintin colorado edu \( hayes james michael jr \) writes trying pin point hardware problem disk , maxtor group files get corrupted regular basis happens drive , one corrupt file year control winword c 32 bit disk access smartdrive since installation dblspace problem turned annoyance reason murder using \? , disable lot problems corrupting weird things \( including windows permanent swap file \) using since frequent files corrupted grp files , last thing written windows \? indeed advanced personal measure tells accessed shell dll also , pd shareware utilities available thorough job dos 6 , ndd 4 5 , etc \? dos 6 win 3 1 compatable really like spinrite qa plus tom paladin world std com
condor navy mil subject diamond ss 24x organization , naval ship systems eng sta , phila pa lines 20 greetings ! 've bunch problems 24x opening dos window desktop occasionally result windows blowing set horizontal lines , hashing entire desktop nothing recover except completely exit windows irritating problem windows scroll often overwrite lines rather actually scrolling , cr printed without lf seems happen communications programs , ca n't nail note , though , comms programs n't communicating even scrolling back capture buffers displaying disk files programs causes problem prior latest rev word perfect windows , would sometimes blow , error message would cite video driver source problem 've still seen , twice 5 2 dave zimmerman \( opinions \)
weidlich arb phys uni dortmund de \( weidlich \) subject searching phonetic font organization institut f uni dortmund lines 13 i'm searching phonetic truetype font windows 3 1 anybody knows one , please mail ! thanks dw dipl inform weidlich , 67 weidlich arb phys uni dortmund de 4600 dortmund 50 phone 49 231 1084 250 dr b sie das fax 49 231 1084 401 mal \?
jamie zikzak apana org au \( jamie scuglia \) subject workspace manager win 3 1 \? organization zikzak public access unix , melbourne australia lines 8 nntp posting host zikzak apana org au workspace managers windows 3 1 \? workspace manager , mean something like hp apollo workstations multiple workspaces x window bottom screen allows select different workspaces overcomes problem stacks windows open one screen instead , spread amongst different workspaces act like independent screens , flick thanks advance
cs vu nl \( \) subject searching phonetic font organization fac wiskunde informatica , vu , amsterdam lines 23 weidlich arb phys uni dortmund de \( weidlich \) writes i'm searching phonetic truetype font windows 3 1 anybody knows one , please mail ! thanks dw dipl inform weidlich , 67 weidlich arb phys uni dortmund de 4600 dortmund 50 phone 49 231 1084 250 dr b sie das fax 49 231 1084 401 mal \? yes , i'm looking phonetic font \( \) ! know one , please mail ! thanks advance patrick vu amsterdam netherlands
subject windows workgroups lan workplace flint waters uwyo edu \( flint waters \) distribution comp os ms windows apps , comp os ms windows misc , world organization university wyoming nntp posting host sheriff uwyo edu lines 18 hey , sounds great mean w4wg works odi \? thought uses ndis wfwg use ndis well ndis shim odi \( 've heard fast ndis direct \) problem lan workplace drivers uses , 'd hate load many drivers make w4wg work along additional tsr load minimal think eat another 20k total worth since allows get windows nt box novell n't released decent nt novell client yet share wfwg box solution usable
gmills chemical watstar uwaterloo ca \( phil trodwell \) subject vb \? lines 9 organization university waterloo subject says exist \? shareware \? \? phil trodwell space 'd happy ram goddam 440 volt cattle rent prod tub right , \( cheap \) radio ! hunter thompson
ctp com \( michael \) subject windows speaker sound driver organization ctp inc x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 16 tony annese \( claebaur shell portal com \) wrote article 1993apr19 mnemosyne cs du edu alee mnemosyne cs du edu \( alec lee \) writes ftp site get ms speaker sound driver \? 's sound exe file claims driver i'm suspicious since 's drv file thats file 's self extracting archive \( run extracts drv file \) michael uit michael p ctp com ctp \( \) inc dept damn good coffee ! hot !
infoserv com \( howard mitchell feldman \) subject need longer filenames organization mind 's eye , inc lines 18 x mailer tmail version 1 13 1993apr19 guinness idbsu edu , lhighley gozer idbsu edu \( larry paul \) wrote utility let use filenames longer standard 8 3 format please email please e mail , thanks howard infoserv com howard feldman mind 's eye , inc
ucsu colorado edu \( mc \) subject use mouse non windows applications ms windows \? organization university colorado , boulder lines 31 kasajian netcom com \( kenneth kasajian \) writes wnkretz ikesg1 energietechnik uni stuttgart de \( oliver kretzschmar \) writes hey , could somebody tell , possible work mouse non windows application , runs window use ms windows 3 1 clipper applications exists routines something else \? please mail informations thanks efforts , oliver name kretzschmar inst ike university stuttgart phone 49 711 685 2130 pfaffenwaldring 31 fax 49 711 685 2010 7000 stuttgart 80 email wnkretz ikesg1 energietechnik uni stuttgart de simple mouse com mouse sys loaded dos run windows note n't need files loaded use mouse windows one addition n't know applies everybody \( microsoft \) mouse work windowed dos apps , use driver came windows \( version 8 20 \) 8 1 n't allow reason
virginia edu \( wing commander \) subject cool bmp files \? \? organization university virginia distribution usa lines 4 anybody gotten bmp work \? try uudecode , get input file error picture anybody \? casey
mb4008 cen uiuc edu \( morgan j bullard \) subject hard drive compression ie , stacker superstor etc summary looking various hard drive compression keywords stacker superstor doubledisk doublespace article news ebu distribution comp os ms windows comp os ms windows apps organization university illinois urbana lines 6 wondering one knew various hard drive compression utilities work hard drive getting full n't want buy new one i'm intrested speed , ease use , amount compression , aspect think might important 've never use one things thanks morgan bullard mb4008 cen uiuc edu uxa cso uiuc edu
sat eng tridom com \( stephen thomas \) subject use mouse non windows applications ms windows \? nntp posting host nut eng tridom com reply sat eng tridom com organization tridom lines 42 article ucsu colorado edu , ucsu colorado edu \( mc \) writes kasajian netcom com \( kenneth kasajian \) writes wnkretz ikesg1 energietechnik uni stuttgart de \( oliver kretzschmar \) writes hey , could somebody tell , possible work mouse non windows application , runs window use ms windows 3 1 clipper applications exists routines something else \? please mail informations thanks efforts , oliver name kretzschmar inst ike university stuttgart phone 49 711 685 2130 pfaffenwaldring 31 fax 49 711 685 2010 7000 stuttgart 80 email wnkretz ikesg1 energietechnik uni stuttgart de simple mouse com mouse sys loaded dos run windows note n't need files loaded use mouse windows one addition n't know applies everybody \( microsoft \) mouse work windowed dos apps , use driver came windows \( version 8 20 \) 8 1 n't allow reason could never find microsoft mouse driver windows 3 1 installation disks , dos 6 0 also version 8 20 mouse com stephen thomas tridom \( 404 514 3522 \) email sat eng tridom com , attmail ! tridom ! sat
nntp posting host fac csr byu edu lines 24 ecktons ucs byu edu \( sean eckton \) subject mouse jumpy \? \( ms mouse \) organization fine arts communications brigham young university microsoft serial mouse using mouse com 8 00 \( using 8 20 think , switched 8 00 see better \) vertical motion nice smooth , horizontal motion bad sometimes ca n't click something mouse jumps around moving mouse right relatively uniform motion mouse move smoothly bit , jump right , move smoothly bit jump \( maybe time left 5 inch ! \) crazy ! never much trouble mouse anyone solutions \? microsoft think everyone \? venting steam ! sean eckton computer support representative college fine arts communications 406 hfac brigham young university provo , ut 84602 \( 801 \) 378 3292 hfac csr byu edu ecktons ucs byu edu
jfb cci632 cci com \( john bruno \) subject ms windows access blind \? organization computer consoles , inc , rochester , ny developing ms windows based product uses full screen window display 24 rows textual data product microsoft windows enable blind individuals access data efficiently \( quickly \) \? \? please email responses post summary group thanks help john bruno
mtrottie emr1 emr ca \( marc trottier \) subject ms windows access blind \? lines 23 nntp posting host mtrottie mps emr ca organization mps , energy , mines resources , canada article 1993apr22 cci632 cci com jfb cci632 cci com \( john bruno \) writes jfb cci632 cci com \( john bruno \) subject ms windows access blind \? date thu , 22 apr 1993 17 25 14 gmt developing ms windows based product uses full screen window display 24 rows textual data product microsoft windows enable blind individuals access data efficiently \( quickly \) \? \? please email responses post summary group thanks help john bruno apparently , microsoft came new product ms braille suppose \) offense marc trottier mtrottie emr1 emr ca
subject postscript file viewer \? bbs ug eds com organization eds canada nntp posting host bbs nntp posting user lines 7 co worker mine needs convert postscript file form readable \( ie ascii \) windows dos anybody know utility \? vague memory shareware utility someone mentioned thanks info , barry
ee ualberta ca \( william jeremiah \) subject looking printer driver nntp posting host bode ee ualberta ca organization university alberta , edmonton canada lines 8 i'm looking c itoh printer driver windows 3 1 anybody happen know could find beast \? thanks advance , jerry look ! signature !
ee ualberta ca \( william jeremiah \) subject looking printer driver nntp posting host bode ee ualberta ca organization university alberta , edmonton canada lines 12 ee ualberta ca \( william jeremiah \) writes i'm looking c itoh printer driver windows 3 1 anybody happen know could find beast \? uh slight clarification printer driver c itoh laser printer thanks thanks advance , jerry look ! signature !
slc a2 cim cdc com \( steve chesney \) subject diamond ss 24x reply slc cdc com organization metaphase technology , inc lines 23 article 1993apr22 554 condor navy mil , condor navy mil writes greetings ! 've bunch problems 24x opening dos window desktop occasionally result windows blowing set horizontal lines , hashing entire desktop nothing recover except completely exit windows irritating problem windows scroll often overwrite lines rather actually posted similar query got replies testing \( far good \) turn hardware scrolling going windows \( \) pif file dos window , set emulate text mode get latest drivers diamond bbs \( cica \) dates 1 20 9 steve chesney slc catherine cim cdc com metaphase technology inc 612 482 \( voice \) north lexington avenue 612 482 4001 \( fax \) arden hills , mn
ravel udel edu \( stephen \) subject use mouse non windows applications ms windows \? nntp posting host ravel udel edu organization university delaware lines 22 article 1993apr22 ucsu colorado edu ucsu colorado edu \( mc \) writes one addition n't know applies everybody \( microsoft \) mouse work windowed dos apps , use driver came windows \( version 8 20 \) 8 1 n't allow reason logitech rodents use driver comes windows also need using video driver supports use mouse , vga supervga come windows 3 1 support 16 color drivers , 're lucky manufacturer video card might driver compatable support mouse steve stephen , coord computer resources brahms udel edu university delaware parallel program stephen mvs udel edu georgetown , de udel edu
cui maccs mcmaster ca \( jun cui \) subject hold control window object \? nntp posting host maccs dcss mcmaster ca organization mcmaster university , hamilton , ontario lines 28 hope right group ! i'm using bc 's objectwindows \( version 3 1 \) , trying get date processed window object however , invoking window object , calling program gives control window object , keeps executing next statement source code may look like following class mywindow public void \( \) could calling program c function \? mywindow mywinobj mywinobj new mywindow \( \) \( \) \( mywinobj \) mywinobj show \( sw \) next statement want program wait mywinobj closed get data back mywinobj specified window style ws , n't help way execute window object calling program wo n't give control \? help would appreciated thanks ! jun talk lord ps 2 ms windows
mhembruc tsegw tse com \( mattias hembruch \) subject telix problem article tsegw organization toronto stock exchange lines 20 dericks plains nodak edu \( dale erickson \) writes use telix \( kermit \) win 3 1 , use telix exiting windows dos , telix find serial port ideas solve problem find information , send email send news group thanks may define serial ports windows \( think 's control panel , ports options \) dale erickson dericks plains nodak edu mattias mattias hembruch views necessarily reflect tse e mail mhembruc tse com
medtronic com \( \) subject midi files ms win3 1 soundblaster 1 0 \? article 1993apr22 organization medtronic , inc lines 31 nntp posting host inst medtronic com x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 cybard \( dudek acsu buffalo edu \) wrote 486dx 33 computer soundblaster 1 0 card i'm running microsoft windows v3 1 sb driver set properly play normal sounds \( wav files , etc \) want play midi files media player included windows know set patch maps something midi mapper control panel know nothing midi \( way 'll get feet wet \) set windows play midi files \? install soundblaster windows drivers correctly , latest drivers , media player setup play files authored microsoft 's multimedia midi authoring standard \( general midi \) , see section back manual soundblaster midi upgrade kit 'll find midi files exist kinds different mappings , n't expect always sound correct without using kind midi file editor , 's sequencer plus attempt use midi mapper remap patches soundblaster , since cannot modify drv allways stuck instruments come driver unless find editor making modifications instrument settings drv , would suggest locate early version soundblaster drivers mapped voices , later drivers mapped general midi voices david thomas dudek ubvms bitnet cybard state university dudek sun acsu buffalo edu ` ' \) , , , new york music food love , \( \) buffalo play ! wm shakespeare ` \) '''
sharp mizar usc edu \( malcolm sharp \) subject trumpet windows news readers article mizar organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 5 nntp posting host mizar usc edu 's ftp site trumpet \? \( wuarchive , umich , something beaten path \? \? \) thanks malcolm
manu oas olivetti com \( manu das \) subject wanted sample source editing controls organization olivetti atc cupertino ca , usa lines 18 distribution usa nntp posting host oas olivetti com hi everyone , would like get example program \( source code \) get started simple editor \( similar windows dialog editor , lot simplified \) someone point source programming windows book , example program comes windows sdk \( microsoft borland \) would greatly appreciate want able place edit control window able drag resize anyone written similar program n't mind sharing code ideas , would appreciate much advance , manu das please send directly manu oas olivetti com
credit erin utoronto ca \( ngo nguyen \) subject speeding windows keywords speed organization university toronto , campus lines 25 article 972 thunder lakeheadu ca djserian flash lakeheadu ca \( reincarnation elvis \) writes 386 33 8 megs memory noticed lately use programs like corel draw computer boggs becomes really sluggish ! increase performance \? turn loading wallpapers stuff like help comes running speed windows programs run \? thanx advance derek try disk often definitely help speed things 2 megs smartdrv also good idea amount memory , use \( 32bit access \) already hope help n ngo
hayesj rintintin colorado edu \( hayes james michael jr \) subject windows disk drive test \? nntp posting host rintintin colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 28 pd freeware hard drive utility handle compressed ide drive without \? need document occasional failures reading writing , check overall integrity disk 's hardware sectors believe problems dos windows isolated drive getting occasional corrupted files , even smartdrive , 32 bit access turned problems dos 5 drive c drive may one failure , file control win winword drive c utilities available report problems dos , ndd \( 5 \) another symptom , sd took forever c , kicked suspension till ndd run 6 8 times thanks mike hayes knowledge good faber college motto www knowledge thoroughness poly motto unemployed tech , , thank ! groucho marx , 'a day races' driven banging head engineering physics 4 years
randy msc cornell edu \( randy ellingson \) subject canon bj200 \( bubblejet \) hp deskjet 500 keywords printer organization cornell university lines 43 article 1993apr18 csd newshost stanford edu kayman csd 3 stanford edu \( robert kayman \) writes hello fellow 'netters asking collected wisdom help decide printer purchase , canon bj200 \( bubblejet \) vs hp deskjet 500 thought , rather trust salesperson , would benefit relying use printers daily use fullest potential , figure know benefits pitfalls better salesperson , would greatly appreciate information could render 360 dpi canon bubblejet vs hewlett packard deskjet 500 \( 300 dpi \) faster \? noticeable print quality difference , particularly graphics \? handle large documents better \( 75 pages \) personal experience either appreciated \? works better windows 3 1 \( driver problems , etc \) \? cost memory , font packages , toner cartridges , etc \? basically , personal experiences either machines highly desirable , good bad advance kudos thanks input e mail news posting readily acceptable , e mail encouraged \( limits bandwidth \) sincerely , robert kayman kayman cs stanford edu cpa cs stanford edu theory , theory practice practice , mean want revised revision original revised revision revised \? ! \? ! sorry followup , get email addresses , , trying decide two printers , would like hear users printers say questions thank randy randy msc cornell edu
pwb aerg canberra edu au \( paul blackman \) subject moving icons article csc 1993apr22 organization university canberra lines 20 article viamar uucp rutgers ! viamar ! kmembry writes remember reading program made windows icons run away mouse moved near anyone know name program ftp location \( probably cica \) file zip 'll find directory cica one line description icons paul blackman pwb science canberra edu au water research centre , pwb aerg canberra edu au faculty applied science \( \) university canberra , australia spend little love get high lenny
pwb aerg canberra edu au \( paul blackman \) subject workspace manager win 3 1 \? organization university canberra lines 26 article 620 werple apana org au jamie zikzak apana org au \( jamie scuglia \) writes workspace managers windows 3 1 \? try workshift karl latest version 2 0 \( later \? \) following cica desktop directory wrksft16 zip workshift graphical virtual desktop \( ver 1 6 \) email karl ask put version 2 0 karl 's email rhi hi \( ms write file v1 6 \) beta tester workshift must say good \( gain nothing saying \) 'll even remember \( workspaces said \) windows sessions thanks advance welcome paul blackman pwb science canberra edu au water research centre , pwb aerg canberra edu au faculty applied science \( \) university canberra , australia spend little love get high lenny
tittle ics uci edu \( cindy tittle moore \) subject canon bj200 \( bubblejet \) hp deskjet 500 keywords printer article ics reply tittle ics uci edu \( cindy tittle moore \) organization ics dept , uc irvine lines 22 nntp posting host dumas ics uci edu edited newsgroup line \( n't like crosspost much \) ca n't compare two , recently got hp deskjet 500 i'm pleased output \( remember i'm used , laser postscript printers school looks good careful let dry touching , smudge deskjet slow comparison printers mentioned idea bubblejet compares interface win3 1 printer dandy , 've problems hope helps cindy cindy tittle moore internet tittle ics uci edu bitnet uci bitnet uucp ! ucbvax ! ! tittle usnail po box , irvine ca ,
gay sedd trw com \( lance gay \) subject environment space running bat files windows article 1993apr23 organization trw systems engineering development division , carson , ca lines 17 bat file run windows icon set pif file run bat file exclusive mode use entire screen first line bat file sets environment variable problem machines \( running ms dos 5 0 windows 3 1 enhanced mode \) , set command bat file fails environment space error raised amount environment space 2048 bytes using shell command config sys know nowhere near running click ms dos icon , create bunch environment dos shell problem machines , setting value environment variable bat file fails anyone seen behavior \? see place pif fail configure environment space lance j gay internet gay sedd trw com trw systems engineering development div phone 310 764 carson , ca
prism gatech edu \( greg williams \) subject many people one machine distribution git organization georgia institute technology lines 23 93111 ucf1vm bitnet cda90038 ucf1vm bitnet \( mark woodruff \) writes several people sharing machine would like set separate environments windows way setting things separate desktops directories \? ideally , 'd like totally separate virtual machines 'd willing settle less , may end batch files copy ini files around depending wants use machine could use dos 6 partly set different config sys autoexec bat commands user , select menu option bootup autoexec bat copy win ini system ini files change directories exit windows , copy back generic ini files want way think may programs somewhere allow better , though using dos 6 allows person custom config sys autoexec bat greg williams georgia institute technology , atlanta georgia , 30332 uucp ! decvax , hplabs , ncar , purdue , rutgers ! gatech ! prism ! internet prism gatech edu
zeus tamu edu \( bill \) subject need help organization texas university , academic computing services lines 22 distribution world nntp posting host zeus tamu edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 ok , problem thought guys gals might know i'm running 25 85mb hdd also windows 3 1 , hardly dos application run also , mem command , says used 640kb conventional memory , zero upper level memory , ems memory top , ca n't load device drivers upper memory need memory \? also , would use ems memory instead upper memory \? please reply e mail tamu edu bill 's first time texas university sleep woman matters , college station , texas first time email tamu edu wake
organization penn state university azmi psuvm psu edu subject trident 8900 cl 1280x1024 driver \? lines 18 article da vinci uswc uswest com , lookout mtt uswc uswest com \( david feldman \) says please excuse faq new trident based card claims 1280x1024 support drivers card indicate several 1280x1024 drivers diskette windows 3 1 make drivers diskette available configuration dialog box suggestion \? thanx please e mail uswest com since subject , one question trident 8900c video card want know latest video driver far , find old driver dated aug 92 garbo uwasa fi anyone info \? please e mail psuvm psu edu az
kauai ai mit edu \( k p horn \) subject atm article life organization mit artificial intelligence lab lines 29 nntp posting host kauai ai mit edu reply downs helios nevada edu 's message wed , 21 apr 1993 20 20 28 gmt article downs 220 helios nevada edu downs helios nevada edu \( lamont downs \) writes good n't diff whether atmanager turned worth run atm \? especially better printer technologies tt \? fonts available ps fonts ps font want use , use atm otherwise , waste system resources , need use service bureau 're set use type 1 fonts 've heard \( pure hearsay \) results tt fonts type 1 good using high quality type 1 fonts first place unless file correct resolution set final output device \( image setter \) problem tt fonts windows get converted t1 format ok , hinting even used done , resulting t1 fonts hinted result work fine device resolution assumed printer driver ps file generated , look good printed different resolution print attached ps printer , ps driver set printer results , may quite good take ps file made printer run device different resolution \( image setter \) , results may good
dave angmar llnl gov \( dave fuess \) subject winqvt net v3 4 \? article 354 distribution usa organization uc llnl lines 11 nntp posting host angmar llnl gov earlier article newsgroup made reference winqvt net version 3 4 realy \? \? tried archie luck 's probably typo sure would like get one 's real printer problem winqvt david fuess dir , center eecs phone \( 510 \) 423 2436 fax \( 510 \) 422
brahms udel edu \( oliver p weatherbee \) subject new windows drivers cirrus gd5426 graphic cards ! article news organization university delaware lines 42 nntp posting host brahms udel edu uploaded recent windows drivers cirrus gd5426 chip based display cards uploads directory ftp cica indiana edu \( file zip \) 're recent , downloaded cirrus bbs \( 570 226 \) last night unable get , email maybe upload sites well local bus based card \( vl24 bitblaster micron \) think drivers work isa cards \( least includes drivers \) found new drivers significant improvement 1 2 version , improving graphic winmarks \( v3 11 \) 2 million \( 7 77 9 88 \) although could result intentional benchmark cheating cirrus 's part n't think steve gibson 's \( columnist info world \) graphic card comparisons \( also found cica ftp site name winadv zip \) extracted following sake comparison wintach 11 word cad paint overall steve 's system 486 33 vlb ati graphics ultra pro 9 33 10 34 20 78 8 28 14 90 13 58 system 486sx 33 vlb vl24 bitblaster 9 88 8 65 11 71 18 84 15 40 13 65 viper , think hell deal third cost ati card compared cards included gibson 's review micron system owner 's , would interested hear opinions dtc local bus disk controller system came maxtor drive \( 120 mb \) first giving disk winmarks 16 kb , 22 kb good gets \? ca n't get norton 's disk reading intercepts calls , least program said oliver weatherbee oliver earthview
ccmail orst edu subject adaptec scsi device driver win3 1 organization university computing services osu lines 1 distribution world nntp posting host ads orst edu
ecktons ucs byu edu \( sean eckton \) subject canon bj200 \( bubblejet \) hp deskjet 500 keywords printer article byu c organization fine arts communications brigham young university lines 27 nntp posting host fac csr byu edu deskjet slow comparison printers mentioned idea bubblejet compares interface win3 1 printer dandy , 've problems bought bj 200 printer couple days ago compared sample print hp deskjet 500 knew hp n't bj 200 pretty fast really prints good quality compare hp laserjet postscript look almost identical \( depending kind paper \) n't problems ink dry , seems dry fast probably within second since canon giving 50 rebate end may , really good buy sean eckton computer support representative college fine arts communications 406 hfac brigham young university provo , ut 84602 \( 801 \) 378 3292 hfac csr byu edu ecktons ucs byu edu
claebaur shell portal com \( tony annese \) subject utility updating win ini system ini nntp posting host jobe organization portal communications company 408 973 9111 \( voice \) 408 973 8091 \( data \) lines 10 article 1993apr20 lut ac uk bailey lut ac uk \( adrian bailey \) writes windows 3 0 built called sysedit exe need windows 3 1 n't know 's tony annese claebaur shell portal com claebaur cup portal com
matt ksu ksu edu \( steven \) subject data corruption organization kansas state university lines 31 nntp posting host matt ksu ksu edu quit windows normally run special dos app , got done tried start windows ok got title screen , windows background , dos error loading progman exe hum , yep progman exe still must bad , ok pull progman exe backup tape , start windows , get windows title screen , windows background , dos error hum ! fire good ol' norton disk doctor , test , 500 lost clusters ! ok , fix , look , n't look important remove windows directory , reinstall disks fire windows , title screen , background , program manager , success ! 486 50 \( amy \) 4 meg ram , 120 meg hd , svga , running dos 5 0 , special memory managers stuff , basic windows 3 1 12 meg permanent swap file using 32 bit access mainly use windows run one dos app time \( ie downloading dos window open , possibly pov running background \) 've noticed since started using windows months ago , lost clusters gotten common although n't like data disappear , really n't problem except today anyone else problems lost clusters running windows \? could fix problem , 'd sleep better knowing amy n't loosing marbles \) steven steven matt ksu ksu edu
ashok biochemistry cwru edu \( ashok aiyar \) subject winqvt net v3 4 \? article ashok 661 0 distribution usa organization cwru school medicine lines 19 nntp posting host axa12 slip dialin cwru edu article 354 ocf llnl gov dave angmar llnl gov \( dave fuess \) writes earlier article newsgroup made reference winqvt net version 3 4 realy \? \? tried archie luck 's probably typo typo uploaded ftp cica indiana edu couple days back sure would like get one 's real printer problem winqvt version 3 4 uses standard windows printer drivers ashok ashok aiyar mail ashok biochemistry cwru edu department biochemistry tel \( 216 \) 368 3300 cwru school medicine , cleveland , ohio fax \( 216 \) 368 4544
bcstec ca boeing com \( robert f weber \) subject cool bmp files \? \? article bcstec 6mb distribution usa organization boeing computer services lines 30 james dlss2 \( james cummings \) writes article 1993apr17 023017 17301 gmuvax2 gmu edu rwang gmuvax2 gmu edu \( john wang \) writes hi , everybody guess subject said getting boring looking old bmp files came windows , wondering body beautiful bmp file share maybe somebody tell ftp site bmp files , like scenery files , animals files , etc used , unfortunately delete anyway could give help , please \? \? \? response different kinda wallpaper , 's use think original gif whatever called real artist name logo lower right corner need vga think , sized 800x600 256 color screens use windows directory tile hope enjoy begin cut begin 666 ntreal bmp m0dtv5p 8 h \( , ! ! p ! \( ! ! f cd , 56 ! m4pa 4h p l , 1 u \) n l0 \( ! 4wa ! , j 0 b h 9tj3 kkzp 0 , , td4i zgb0 ! \) uh \( 0a 6e ! 4b ! ! ! bbzx ! e1 \) bv deleted lot stuff ! ! ! ! ! ! ! convert bit map \? \? \?
uxa cso uiuc edu \( bradley banko \) subject dos quick c 2 5 crashes windows 3 1 \? reply b banko uiuc edu organization university illinois urbana lines 22 using dos quick c 2 5 dos window windows 3 1 , day running compiler , got general protection fault immediately followed serious disk error rebooted , found 15 files gotten cross linked pretty serious corruption hard drive file system concerned quick c dos window somehow strayed outside protected mode world corrupted smartdrv exe disk cache caused disk problem thought dos programs run dos windows pretty well contained windows true , maybe quick c compiler nothing anybody else type problem \? \( recently upgraded quick c 2 0 2 5 \) brad banko brad banko dept physics u illinois b banko uiuc edu see one one teach one 73 de il
santos mickey ai ac jp \( rafael \) subject turbo c visual edition request absolute newbie questions organization kit , ai dept , japan lines 52 nntp posting host mickey reply wiggins cs odu edu 's message fri , 16 apr 1993 06 16 54 gmt article wiggins cs odu edu wiggins cs odu edu \( samuel e wiggins \) writes btw , would rate new borland turbo c visual edition windows , anyone \? time new discussion , maybe \? asked groups time ago tc , got answers , decided try brother lives us bought sent , i'm still trying get used put good bad points list , consider turbo pascal dos programmer , sometimes try make something unix c \( exercises university \) used make programs microsoft c version 5 \( ! ! \) used third party libraries required like borland seems much easier use microsoft , specially debugger tried learn sometimes , never felt confortable tc v e seems nice create simple apps , like examples objectwindows book far , problems lets see next week , try something complex works nice even weak machine 386 16mhz , 6 mb ram manual resource workshop seems different version workshop windows appear manual manual think run trouble since got tc brother present didnt wanted buy japanese version 1 \) suspect manuals japanese \( 2 \) believe far expensive bought present sent , send registration card japanese branch borland , knows , 'd like ask questions know microsoft guys around group anybody borland \? e mail address contact technical support \? stupid questions , ask example , rw manual seems different rw \? anybody else using around \? book useful \? intend use rw make interfaces work code answers e mail comp os ms windows programmer tools , please thanks advance , rafael
louray seas gwu edu \( michael panayiotakis \) subject ms windows access blind \? organization george washington university lines 36 article mtrottie 64 0 emr1 emr ca mtrottie emr1 emr ca \( marc trottier \) writes article 1993apr22 cci632 cci com jfb cci632 cci com \( john bruno \) writes jfb cci632 cci com \( john bruno \) subject ms windows access blind \? date thu , 22 apr 1993 17 25 14 gmt developing ms windows based product uses full screen window display 24 rows textual data product microsoft windows enable blind individuals access data efficiently \( quickly \) \? \? please email responses post summary group thanks help john bruno apparently , microsoft came new product ms braille suppose \) offense marc trottier mtrottie emr1 emr ca micro oft display , computers running windows , win apps blind , think n't pay much attention , mickey pe michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace ! uunet ! seas gwu edu ! louray make ms windows grp file reflect hd directory \? \? well ai n't always right , 've never wrong \( gd \)
gtonwu uz nthu edu tw \( tony g wu \) subject possible \? organization national tsing hua university \( \) x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 13 hello possible know minimize program manager starting application restore application ended \? possible , please tell ! \( forever 23 , michael jordan \) tony g wu gtonwu uz nthu edu tw cae rheology lab nthu tony che nthu edu tw
ewoo unixg ubc ca \( woo \) subject help ! disappearing groups ! ! ! organization university british columbia , vancouver , b c , canada lines 30 distribution world nntp posting host unixg ubc ca ! n't usually subscribe newsgroups would really appreciate someone could possibly e mail answer problem using windows 3 1 since buying last winter come across annoying bug 8 different groups program manager seems everytime install something new makes new group , promptly disappears turn windows ! happened installed excel winfax pro v 3 created groups turned windows , gone manually pull new items put previously existing group new disappear soon turn windows set precision 386dx 25 w 4 megs trident 8900c 1 meg windows 3 1 running 800x600 colour mode logitech thank advance ! woo ewoo unixg ubc ca woo , student representative senate sig unavailable holding internet ewoo unixg ubc ca referendum decide politic tel 822 6101 ally correct
subject bungee dark module uploaded miavx1 acs muohio edu \( andrew bennett \) organization lines 17 hey folks ! moments ago , uploaded bungee jumper dark module widely talked time ago 's ftp cica indiana edu , pub pc win3 uploads , titled simply bungee zip sure set ftp connection binary mode downloading dark shareware freeware modules , please upload andrew andrew bennett miavx1 acs muohio edu planet \?
blade stack urc tue nl \( jeroen \) subject dos 6 vfintd 386 windows sys ini organization stack , eindhoven university technology , netherlands lines 16 nntp posting host blade stack urc tue nl x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 peter p lei \( lei rtsg mot com \) wrote anyone know vfintd 386 device used windows 3 1 \? 's 386enh section device c dos vfintd 386 know norton desktop windows includes file help file mentioned something floppy disk access jeroen j c email blade stack urc tue nl 34 phone 3411 \( modem fax ! \) ph
sam4628 chensun2m tamu edu \( iv \) subject use mouse non windows organization dept chemical engineering , texas university lines 34 distribution world reply sam4628 chensun2m tamu edu nntp posting host chensun2m tamu edu article netcom com , kasajian netcom com \( kenneth kasajian \) writes wnkretz ikesg1 energietechnik uni stuttgart de \( oliver kretzschmar \) writes hey , could somebody tell , possible work mouse non windows application , runs window use ms windows 3 1 clipper applications exists routines something else \? please mail informations thanks efforts , oliver name kretzschmar inst ike university stuttgart phone 49 711 685 2130 pfaffenwaldring 31 fax 49 711 685 2010 7000 stuttgart 80 email wnkretz ikesg1 energietechnik uni stuttgart de simple mouse com mouse sys loaded dos run windows note n't need files loaded use mouse windows need video driver completely windows 3 1 compatible , mouse driver completely compatible well quite simple \( never could get logitech mouse work 100 dos window old paradise card diamond ss24x 6 2 mouse drivers , everything works perfectly \) steven
mercury berkeley edu \( kevin marshall \) subject grey scale windows \? organization motorola ltd , european cellular infrastructure division lines 6 distribution world reply mercury berkeley edu \( kevin marshall \) nntp posting host mercury swindon rtsg mot com kevin marshall , operational support , motorola , swindon , uk e mail zeus phone 44 793 \( international \) \( \) \( domestic \)
jamie zikzak apana org au \( jamie scuglia \) subject workspace managers win 3 1 small review organization zikzak public access unix , melbourne australia lines 56 nntp posting host zikzak apana org au thanks people recommended workspace managers windows 3 1 found 3 shareware workspace managers , australia 's ms windows archive \( monu6 cc monash edu au \) , mirrors sites u three found 1 workspaces 1 10 \( wspace zip \) smallest simplest workspace managers found easy use displays small window , containing 6 buttons , plus extra button configuration purposes one annoying feature title window first presented run must press key \( mouse button ! \) thing go away also , would nice always top setting little window containing workspace buttons maybe user specified strings buttons instead numbers one six might nice feature simplicity ease use workspace manager makes attractive package 2 workshift 1 6 \( wrksft16 zip \) workspace manager offered features workspaces 1 10 lacked , quite time consuming set things workspaces 1 10 , first workspace initially empty workshift 1 6 , need take want workspaces look like e applications contain also , main window quite large , allow small view workspace workspaces 1 10 , facility viewing workspace without switching workshift 1 6 provides viewing functionality quite useful 3 bigdesk 2 30 backmenu \( backdesk zip \) interesting package , contains goodies well workspace manager goodies include backmenu , provides pop root menu press certain mouse button like x windows menu totally configurable , offering unlimited depth menus , provides quite handy access applications could say menu based alternative program manager also bundled backdesk zip program called , allows run windows applications dos shell windows instead using file manager run applications actual workspace manager called bigdesk 2 30 bigdesk works quite differently two workspace managers n't provide certain number separate workspaces fact , basically desktop configurable amount , choose region desktop want screen focus means windows overlapping different viewing regions , unlike first two workspace managers workspace isolated one bigdesk control window allows move windows around enlarged desktop basically control window provides small scale view viewing area actual computer screen provides large scale blow particular section try impressed , find one suits needs best
nyongwa cam org \( claude \) subject wp pcf , linux , risc \? x advert mail news feeds available email postmaster details organization radio free nyongwa public usenet montreal \( 514 \) 284 lines 32 article ecf toronto edu leebr ecf toronto edu \( lee brian \) writes article 1qu8ud 2hd sunb ocs mq edu au eugene mpce mq edu au writes article c5o1yq m34 csie nctu edu tw ghhwang csie nctu edu tw \( ghhwang \) writes dear friend , risc means reduced instruction set computer risc usually small instruction set reduce circuit complex increase clock rate high performance read books computer architecture information risc hmm authority risc \) clearly remember reading instruction set risc cpus rather large difference addressing modes risc instruction sets orthogonal cisc theoretically supposed reduced longer 's everyone arguing risc v cisc personally , think cisc win take look pentium ! \( like intel architectures either , 's another story \) bye ! mean pentium better risc \? \? first , remember intel cisc \( like pentium \) always generation away best riscs also riscs cpu costly sold quantities \( even order \) remember reading 3 years \( maybe 2 \) \( \? \) 100 mips , instruction
kaul watson ibm com subject dmqs files xga 2 \( x xga 2 ! \( extra modes \? \) \) news software ibm os 2 pm rn \( nr 2 \) v0 17h vishnepolsky r rogers lines reply kaul vnet ibm com disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host kaul bocaraton ibm com organization ibm j watson research \( note followups set comp os os2 misc dmqs files describe monitors valid modes used xga 2 windows os 2 \) files unsupported ! ibm nothing files post 's personal time \( every time post see signature \) due demand requests , additional dmqs files 've collected xga 2 files function latest revision drivers xga 2 files work windows drivers available general public time files function recent os 2 2 1 beta 've tried worked os 2 2 0 sp files fully tested files unsupported ! represent personal collection , anything resembling officially supported set standard disclaimer would like point following facts 1 \) files may run adapter spec stress ics card may result incorrect operation shorter life \( short depends much spec boom ! \) 2 \) files may run adapter region spec monitor , resulting damage monitor 3 \) knowledgable monitor adapter 's ability use mode select using files represents hacking true sense , practice safe computing n't play around much n't like risks n't knowledgable 're 4 \) feel uncomfortable warnings , use dmqs files wait ibm releases official , tested dmqs files although aware warning 2 \) even ibm files files unsupported ! using may invalidate warrenty fully tested n't many monitors installation unpack environment variable , usually c xga dmqs use methods described xga 2 installation diskette change adapter settings packing files packed latest utility need pkzip 2 x n't utilities submitting feel free send uuencoded versions favorite dmqs files favorite monitors i'm always interested collecting archive files uploaded ftp os2 nmsu edu pub uploads zip begin 644 zip m4 l ! ! 0`` ` \( ` \) ! 0 ! ``` ```` ! l ` 3o ! ! 2r ! \) \) g 0 , s7 , 3z , 4 c 7y , 58 tk cb , \( 6 rv ms fd f3 , \( \) d9 \( l m2 qk \? \? 0 \) , p f \? b \( ix 3 ` ! m`` \( ` ` ! 0i 1 hx ! `` x` `` p``` uo sg , q 23 n7 \) t9 7 \( ir p ` \( n0 8z \( 0 m1 h \) \? ! hit 0 ! 2 \? \? r og g ! r ca , 6 ! 4 gi u2 en r 0 , 8v \( ma2 ! 7 \) 9 ix , rw , 31 ! w , 8 \) `p 9 \( 4 \( 3 ml b maq \) l \) w f \? \? oj \? 2 mj \) ti jd 9d j ! \( zn kj ! 4 je 5 \? sx ! 30 \( \) 2u q j \? \? w4 5 u2 \) z b \? 81 rgv 4 va ! zj \? w' \? \? p 02p , `` `` ` \? 4 7 \) `0`` ` \( ```l``` ! f1g tm 13 \? w h j 4 5 1 x \? mtl 6 ` et 0 1 au zf 4a \( x 5 ! ft mw ! 2 ' u , 7b f6 7 5 ' \) , v \? z \( f mz l eo r \) q' \( ! 0 \( ! c0 ! l bh ! \( n , b ' 1 pb 9 , \( \) 5 l4 ms w 'j j ! 4k h 6 \( 7k \) `s \) 4 j zm g 7h jb \? h \? lh 3 \) u7 p 3 , v \? \( z q r8 \? dx eo 5` 5 u4 \? `e ! `p04`` \( ` ` ! 0i ! hx 4` ! `` ! t` `` p``` uo sg 2 \) ` w v` b rq l , \? bl a2 4 ae mbp \) ! x n b \) \? 9 og , 6 0 cnt , md5 \( 2 2 n 5 \? \( z b \) ' ! bg \) 4 bo \( hw , ! ob ! `2 0 \( bs 6 c mk 8 \) p 8 \) ! k ! \( u \) \) 0 ta \? \( ` 4 k 8 , , mug r \( 1 n \( `7 z \( m` f 8 oe b 4 q3 u \) \( \? 0 02p , `` `` ` \? 4 7 f4 5 h `0`` ` \( ```l``` ! f1g yw 81 x' , x 6 \) 9 , \( ` 8o mm f p ! 9 da ' , ! u \) l ! 5ie b \( n 5 nf , \) g , \( \) bz \? u , , 77 d8 \? 52 ! ! 8 n kg nb \? w \) 0 , , hr x \) ! \) , x 0g ! ! e3 6 w \) w8 mj ! 4u \? h4 t6 5 bo b y5 ila , \( \? ! \) g 4 e \? 1 f \? 2 \( 9r 4 \? e o` 4 l ! ! 0`` ` \( \( `` ``` ```` 6 n 34u 2yd9w f p3 , b \( 4' ! ih 6 \( h6 0 32 q 0k ' r vz \? \( , \) o6 bf 7 h \( e \( 9 ew \? o2 , 7j 3 \) m8 , 0ek v g ! 9 ! r j ! w ! 1r \( wq k 1 gsu ! p i0 l8 n 7 \) n d0i x \( p , \) p 9 \( \? \? e a1 z1 4 n yp 5 6 , \? 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\( joseph barrus \) subject utility expand dos file descriptions directory listing \? organization naval ocean systems center , san diego , ca lines 16 looking windows utility would give listing files directory , also display description file utility would allow enter edit file descriptions , hopefully , length \( maybe small window scroll bar \? \) would able browse directories able see file without open execute beast \? , anyone want write one \? joe barrus barrus nosc mil
paul rutgers edu \( rahul mehta \) subject info books bios , 286 etc organization rutgers univ , new brunswick , n j lines 18 hi everybody , interested following topics 1 \) bios programming 286 386 2 \) memory management 286 386 3 \) developing visual basic custom controls would like valuable opinion books best topics please send mail paul rutgers edu post summary suggestions 2 32 1 thanks advance rahul mehta
subject sigma designs video sound card srini shannon tisl ukans edu \( srini seetharam \) reply srini shannon tisl ukans edu \( srini seetharam \) distribution world organization elec comp eng , univ kansas nntp posting host morse tisl ukans edu originator srini morse lines 10 anyone use sigma designs video sound card \? model called win storm pc also one model legend info like performance compatibility , even problems encountered appreciated thanks srini w seetharam
lisbon vpnet chi il us \( gerry swetsky \) subject program manager two questions organization vpnet public access lines 16 \( 1 \) possible change icons program groups \? 'd like give individuality \( 2 \) set short cut key return program manager \? know ctl esc , esc , 'd rather set avoid task list get back p alt f1 help welcomed help stamp stupid signature files ! gerry swetsky vpnet public access unix usenet home \( 708 \) 833 vpnet \( 708 \) 833 lisbon vpnet chi il us
cymbal calpoly edu \( gregory king \) subject ss 24x questions organization california polytechnic state university , san luis obispo distribution usa lines 17 got ss24x based good ratings , little impressed first , 's performance 16 7 mill supposed comparable trident 8900 \( vga \) \? came ok performance 256 , good great second , anyone know get jpg viewer ss24x saw cica something work better thanks help greg gregory king quality life aeronautical engineering directly proportional cal poly slo fast drive
tittle ics uci edu \( cindy tittle moore \) subject canon bj200 \( bubblejet \) hp deskjet 500 nntp posting host dumas ics uci edu reply tittle ics uci edu \( cindy tittle moore \) organization ics dept , uc irvine keywords printer lines 25 c byu edu ecktons ucs byu edu \( sean eckton \) writes deskjet slow comparison printers mentioned idea bubblejet compares interface win3 1 printer dandy , 've problems bought bj 200 printer couple days ago compared sample print hp deskjet 500 knew hp n't bj 200 pretty fast really prints good quality compare hp laserjet postscript look almost identical \( depending kind paper \) n't problems ink dry , seems dry fast probably within second since canon giving 50 rebate end may , really good buy much bj going \? got mine 300 end deciding factor cindy cindy tittle moore internet tittle ics uci edu bitnet uci bitnet uucp ! ucbvax ! ! tittle usnail po box , irvine ca ,
es com \( bruce \) subject program manager two questions nntp posting host 130 187 90 30 reply es com \( bruce \) organization evans sutherland computer corp , salt lake city , ut lines 20 article 1993apr22 vpnet chi il us , lisbon vpnet chi il us \( gerry swetsky \) writes \( 1 \) possible change icons program groups \? 'd like give individuality \( 2 \) set short cut key return program manager \? know ctl esc , esc , 'd rather set avoid task list get back p alt f1 use , enhancement program manager allows \( 1 \) sure , n't know \( 2 \) anyway , give try like lot registered right away found ftp cica indiana edu 129 79 20 84 pub pc win3 util zip bruce bruce f never know 're going dsd es com need good piece rope software technical support engineer sam evans sutherland computer corp mail , opinions
cs mcgill ca \( brendan newman \) subject trident vga drivers organization socs mcgill university , montreal , canada lines 8 hi , trident tvga 8900 video card need updated drivers win3 1 get ftp site thanks bj
dale odetics com \( dale \) subject diamond ss 24x organization odetics , inc , anaheim , ca lines 17 article 1993apr20 samba oit unc edu dil admin mhs unc edu \( dave laudicina \) writes anyone experienced faint shadow resolutions using card windows replaced card waiting latest drivers also experienced general protection fault errors wspdpsf drv winword tools option menu winfax setup exact failure 24x word windows quick call microsoft indicated problem 24x drivers need call diamond get new drivers , think version 2 03 fixes problem , may later versions i'm unaware dale r dale odetics com uunet ! odetics ! dale senior software engineer odetics , division
liverpool ac uk \( chris wooff \) subject removing ole server keywords ole , spss nntp posting host 22 liv ac uk organization university liverpool x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 16 ago installed spss windows part evaluation evaluation complete duly deleted software pc unfortunately still ghost spss left run something like write go embed object spss chart appears list objects i'm offered looked around obvious ini files without success next thing tried looking string spss chart every file windows directory turned file called req dat \( reg dat \) unfortunately file binary n't feel inclined edit 'd welcome solution removing spss list ole servers chris wooff \( c wooff liverpool ac uk \)
eng cso uiuc edu \( michael r \) subject file manager problem organization university illinois urbana lines 8 whenever start file manager , status bar displayed , even though selected options menu , select , bar appears anyone ideas happening \? thanks mike
er cs cmu edu \( \) subject help ! disappearing groups ! ! ! nntp posting host kurt tip cs cmu edu cc ewoo unixg ubc ca organization school computer science , carnegie mellon lines 11 article skeena ucs ubc ca ewoo unixg ubc ca \( woo \) writes program manager seems everytime install something new makes new group , promptly disappears turn windows ! \( 1 \) check new grp file actually created windows directory \? \( 2 \) turning computer windows running rather closing program manager \?
iis netcom com \( international imaging syste \) subject list favorite windows goodies \? organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 9 anyone maintaining list favorite shareware public domain windows software \? several lists msdos , really light windows stuff david arnstein international imaging systems arnstein iis sun com
jason sigma demon co uk \( jason manger \) subject wo n't dos apps run window \? ! distribution world organization sigma press reply jason sigma demon co uk x mailer simple news 1 90 \( ka9q dis 1 19 \) lines 8 somebody help \? purchased win 3 1 ca n't get dos apps \( text mode apps \) run window 've tried mucking around pif settings etc , avail wrong \? \( n't get problem v3 0 \) thanks advance jason
ken austin ibm com subject win nt \? \? \? originator ken daedalus austin ibm com organization ibm austin lines 50 article usenet ucs indiana edu , ntaib silver ucs indiana edu \( iskandar taib \) writes article sdd trw com reimert etdesg trw com \( scott p reimert \) writes somewhere thread , said windows nt \( tm \) multi user os , well multi threading , etc certainly n't seen case seperate accounts person , even seperate directories desired n't see use though since running gui network going slow fair amount , expect windows nt multiuser sense sharing filesystems someone likely write one could run character based apps , graphics based apps shared running executables local cpu things shaping everywhere client server architectures taking old cpu terminal setups note next always telnet next run character based apps ca n't run gui \( yeah , know x windows , n't impressed \) iskandar taib thing worse peach ala internet ntaib silver ucs indiana edu frog frog ala peach bitnet ntaib iubacs ! read electronic magazine nt hoopla nt , one would think thing would multi user 's supports one user time support multiple clients one actual user mileage may vary ! posting represent opinions employers i'm afraid 'll ask leave store , mam ash , aod
slc a2 cim cdc com \( steve chesney \) subject diamond ss 24x reply slc cdc com organization metaphase technology , inc lines 20 article 1993apr23 1911 odetics com , dale odetics com \( dale \) writes article 1993apr20 samba oit unc edu dil admin mhs unc edu \( dave laudicina \) writes anyone experienced faint shadow resolutions using card windows replaced card waiting latest drivers also experienced general protection fault errors wspdpsf drv winword tools option menu winfax setup exact failure 24x word windows quick call microsoft indicated problem 24x drivers need call diamond get new drivers , think version 2 03 fixes problem , may later versions i'm unaware version 2 03 drivers current steve chesney slc catherine cim cdc com metaphase technology inc 612 482 \( voice \) north lexington avenue 612 482 4001 \( fax \) arden hills , mn
herrod xenon stanford edu \( stephen herrod \) subject latex help organization computer science department , stanford university lines 9 posted apps group n't get response , 'll try trying use latex help feature available emacs windows read need separate zip file along zip file convert windows help anyone found files gotten command help work \? thanks , steve herrod
rlister cti com \( russell lister \) subject mouse jumpy \? \( ms mouse \) organization comprehensive technologies int , inc lines 49 ecktons ucs byu edu \( sean eckton \) writes microsoft serial mouse using mouse com 8 00 \( using 8 20 think , switched 8 00 see better \) vertical motion nice smooth , horizontal motion bad sometimes ca n't click something mouse jumps around moving mouse right relatively uniform motion mouse move smoothly bit , jump right , move smoothly bit jump \( maybe time left 5 inch ! \) crazy ! never much trouble mouse anyone solutions \? microsoft think everyone \? venting steam ! problem first , thought video driver made sure current drivers , problem evident svga resolution modes n't help bit experimentation , determined problem existed standard vga resolution mode much less noticeable mouse older ms serial version bought second hand 1990 worked fine dos dos based graphic applications guess problem resolution mouse , borrowed new mouse \( ms bus model \) tried solved problem , mouse old , may want try replacing newer one sean eckton computer support representative college fine arts communications 406 hfac brigham young university provo , ut 84602 \( 801 \) 378 3292 hfac csr byu edu ecktons ucs byu edu russ lister rlister cti com well connected ! uunet ! ! rlister comprehensive technologies int'l inc , arlington , va
trentu ca \( ross barclay \) subject twain drivers logitech scanman news software vax vms vnews 1 41 organization trent computing telecommunications department lines 11 hi , wondering anyone knew whether logitech windows twain drivers scanman , drivers net somewhere \? scanman model one scanman 256 thanks advance ross barclay ross barclay trentu ca peterborough , ontario
subject ms windows sound system , text speach \? bcsc02 gov bc ca organization bc systems corporation nntp posting host bcsc02 gov bc ca lines 4 hi news group users anyone know whether software let one text speach like sound blaster \? hal adam , bcsc02 gov bc ca
jr0930 eve albany edu \( diamond \) subject simple windows question organization state university new york albany lines 15 ok , 's nice easy question running dos 5 0 windows 3 0 , lose ability print screen problem i'm running dos windows 's , i'm using 6 0' expanded memory manager 386 please e mail responses , since n't get read news often thanks advance jr0930 eve albany edu jr0930 albnyvms bitnet go heavy go home
nntp posting host 134 58 96 14 wimvh liris tew kuleuven ac \( wim van holder \) distribution world organization k u leuven applied economic sciences department subject winqvtnet ndis token ring \? lines 28 article 1993apr21 datamark co nz , thomas datamark co nz writes article 1993apr21 liris tew kuleuven ac wimvh liris tew kuleuven ac \( wim van holder \) writes possible use winqvt net machine uses ndis connect token ring \? tried older versions \( 3 2 \) got invalid packet class error something like attempting \? using dis program \? provides packet driver top ndis driver tried , people told even used , packets would still incompatible true \? thomas beagle thomas datamark co nz work 64 4 233 8186 technical writer thomas welly gen nz home 64 4 499 3832 , wellington , nz hound hire work dog \( \) \( \) wim van holder universiteit leuven tel 32 \( 0 \) 16 28 57 16 departement e w fax 32 \( 0 \) 16 28 57 99 2 b 3000 leuven e mail wimvh liris tew kuleuven ac belgium cc1 kuleuven ac
subject eps display software \? bcsc02 gov bc ca organization bc systems corporation nntp posting host bcsc02 gov bc ca lines 4 one know shareware freeware software lets one display eps files pc dos windows \? \? \? reply would much appreciated thanks hal adam , bcsc02 gov bc ca
jls atg com \( jerome schneider \) reply jls atg com distribution world subject environment space running bat files windows organization aspen technology group x mailer 2 1 modified lines 42 bat file run windows icon set pif file run bat file exclusive mode use entire screen first line bat file sets environment variable problem machines \( running ms dos 5 0 windows 3 1 enhanced mode \) , set command bat file fails environment space error raised amount environment space 2048 bytes using shell command config sys know nowhere near running \( windows resource toolkit \( \) \) , add entry system ini file section nnnn sets command com env size , nnnn must either 0 160 32768 value 0 disables setting value small big , rounded 160 32768 value less current size actual environment , setting disabled , 0 specify environment size pif file command com , pif setting overrides setting default 0 msdos versions earlier 3 2 otherwise , default value e option shell command config sys set value , must edit system ini reboot used entry , well relied default e config sys shell line , give larger environments n't use one , environment passed windows new dos box little bit bigger environment variables present windows started \( matter big dos env , windows starts , unused space except bytes \) allow batch file run , mileage may vary jerome \( jerry \) schneider domain jls atg com aspen technology group uucp uunet ! csn ! ! jls po box 673 , ft collins , co voice \( 303 \) 484
mark whalley uk co gec mrc \( mark whalley \) subject windows backgrounds reply mark whalley uk co gec mrc \( mark whalley \) organization gec marconi research centre , great baddow , essex lines 21 help , i'm bored current windows backgrounds looking nifty pictures use instead 've seen previous posts many sites exist store pictures available anonymous ftp except ca n't ftp remote sites machine , use mail list commands server receive mail files , data back anyone know sites , windows compatible pictures , accessed way \? \? \? would please post tia mark ps maybe would make useful faq mark whalley gec mrc co uk 'only silence word , phone 44 245 darkness light , views expressed mine , dying life , mine , nothing whatsoever bright hawk 's flight gec mrc empty ursula k le
leebr ecf toronto edu \( lee brian \) subject wp pcf , linux , risc \? organization university toronto , engineering computing facility lines 67 article nyongwa cam org nyongwa cam org \( claude \) writes article ecf toronto edu leebr ecf toronto edu \( lee brian \) writes article 1qu8ud 2hd sunb ocs mq edu au eugene mpce mq edu au writes article c5o1yq m34 csie nctu edu tw ghhwang csie nctu edu tw \( ghhwang \) writes dear friend , risc means reduced instruction set computer risc usually small instruction set reduce circuit complex increase clock rate high performance read books computer architecture information risc hmm authority risc \) clearly remember reading instruction set risc cpus rather large difference addressing modes risc instruction sets orthogonal cisc theoretically supposed reduced longer 's everyone arguing risc v cisc personally , think cisc win take look pentium ! \( like intel architectures either , 's another story \) bye ! mean pentium better risc \? \? first , remember intel cisc \( like pentium \) always generation away best riscs also riscs cpu costly sold quantities \( even order \) remember reading 3 years \( maybe 2 \) \( \? \) 100 mips , instruction i'm 100 sure , think 25mhz \? ya tie together get \( newest kicks anyone 's butt \) n't seen used much though \) anyway , respond , think pentium \( cisc \) better advanced risc \( e g , like alpha , etc 66mhz pentium approximately performance alpha , performance weird specint92 everyone refers \? heard alpha still kicks p5 's butt fp , heard \) computing world , sell lots chips \( like intel \) , make faster \( like intel \) , winner \( like intel \) , even though architecture 10 years ago \( like intel 0 \) make cisc chip \( , , \) ideas behind risc ideology , got cisc chip admit ca n't see advantages risc cisc latest technology generation behind , sucks \( relatively speaking \) may sound like like intel , 'll say p5 real kick butt pile si hope motorola really catches line i'm gonna start crying brian brian hojo lee hey , excuse miss , could gif \? leebr ecf toronto edu leebr eecg toronto edu \( try linux best free un x clone ! \)
louray seas gwu edu \( michael panayiotakis \) subject cool bmp files \? \? organization george washington university distribution usa lines 27 begin cut begin 666 ntreal bmp m0dtv5p 8 h \( , ! ! p ! \( ! ! f cd , 56 ! m4pa 4h p l , 1 u \) n l0 \( ! 4wa ! , j 0 b h 9tj3 kkzp 0 , , td4i zgb0 ! \) uh \( 0a 6e ! 4b ! ! ! bbzx ! e1 \) bv deleted lot stuff ! ! ! ! ! ! ! convert bit map \? \? \? 're supposed delete everything cut mark , lower cut mark , uudecode able unexpected end file encountered last line could please post , tell i'm wrong \? thanks , , mickey pe michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace ! uunet ! seas gwu edu ! louray make ms windows grp file reflect hd directory \? \? well ai n't always right , 've never wrong \( gd \)
peter psychnet psychol utas edu au \( peter r tattam \) subject beta testers required winsock version windows trumpet organization psychology department , university tasmania lines 11 contact details peter psychnet psychol utas edu au peter p tattam international phone 61 02 programmer , psychology department australia phone 002 university tasmania , , tasmania , australia
thomas fellrath 1 nd edu nd edu subject canon bj200 \( bubblejet \) hp deskjet 500 keywords printer organization university notre dame lines 64 article 1993apr18 csd newshost stanford edu kayman csd 3 stanford edu \( robert kayman \) writes kayman csd 3 stanford edu \( robert kayman \) subject canon bj200 \( bubblejet \) hp deskjet 500 keywords printer date 18 apr 93 04 17 41 gmt hello fellow 'netters asking collected wisdom help decide printer purchase , canon bj200 \( bubblejet \) vs hp deskjet 500 thought , rather trust salesperson , would benefit relying use printers daily use fullest potential , figure know benefits pitfalls better salesperson , would greatly appreciate information could render 360 dpi canon bubblejet vs hewlett packard deskjet 500 \( 300 dpi \) faster \? noticeable print quality difference , particularly graphics \? handle large documents better \( 75 pages \) personal experience either appreciated \? works better windows 3 1 \( driver problems , etc \) \? cost memory , font packages , toner cartridges , etc \? basically , personal experiences either machines highly desirable , good bad advance kudos thanks input e mail news posting readily acceptable , e mail encouraged \( limits bandwidth \) sincerely , robert kayman kayman cs stanford edu cpa cs stanford edu theory , theory practice practice , mean want revised revision original revised revision revised \? ! \? ! right saying know average , 'll give question shot key issue bought bj 200 ink drying speed really try awful hard get bj 200 ink smear hp deskjets need 10 15 seconds completely dry cases , however , get pages wet unlike laser printers , material pages ink , toner go without saying pc little memory \( 2meg ram \) , bj 200 takes little print every application use takes run computer solely printing , like kitten puts pages every 15 30 seconds , depending detailed graphics bj 200 windows soft fonts i'm assuming deskjet , hp would n't sell many size another factor bj 200 much smaller , hp built like tank bet bj 200 would get damaged first finally , print quality love bj 200 's resolution looks like good laser quality print hp 's 've used look like ink impressive , chose canon opinions \?
wongda eecg toronto edu \( daniel h wong \) subject actix video card drivers windows keywords actix graphics accelerator organization dept electrical engineering , university toronto , canada lines 20 looking latest drivers actix graphics accelerator card driver currently using version 1 21 n't support 256 colors 1024x768 mode even 2mb memory bbs support actix unbelievable ! still using 2400bps modem ! take hours download drivers , hurts calling long distance ftp site collection video drivers windows \? btw , anyone using card , like far \? thanks daniel h wong uoft \( 416 \) 978 1659 wongda eecg toronto edu electrical engineering
kuehnel rvs uni hannover de \( stefan kuehnel , \) subject nt questions reply kuehnel rvs uni hannover de organization rvs , universitaet hannover , germany lines 38 article news yale edu , adriene nazaretian qm yale edu \( adriene nazaretian \) writes article 1993mar26 samba oit unc edu , tclark med unc edu \( thomas b clark \) says 2 driver support seamless program support \? e g , soundblaster , scanner , cd rom , tape backup continue work even specific nt drivers \? hardware compatibility guide answer questions many drivers cd rom midi sound drivers installed , dont lot sound digitizing platform , recall seeing items configuration control panel built support tape backup systems well problem n't aware fact would need scsi cd rom windows nt ordering beta sdk package question driver available allow use mitsumi \( non scsi \) cd rom installation \? one , place \( ftp site \) get \? many thanks advance stefan kuehnel stefan k kuehnel rvs uni hannover de kuehnel uni hannover de \( neu ab 17 04 1993 \) die ist private und nicht die des , des lg rvs der uh institution
organization penn state university azmi psuvm psu edu subject trident vga drivers lines 12 article cs mcgill ca , cs mcgill ca \( brendan newman \) says hi , trident tvga 8900 video card need updated drivers win3 1 get ftp site card , tvga 8900c checked , latest driver windows 3 1 dated aug 92 garbo uwasa fi win31 drivers video find better version \( updated \) please let know , thanks azmi psuvm psu edu
cae wisc edu \( terry \) subject help windows drum machine ! organization u wisconsin madison college engineering lines 21 hello , i'm trying get drum program work downloaded ftp cica indiana edu pub pc win3 sounds directory 's called drum zip ati stereo fx card latest windows drivers installed try run drum program , reports midi device installed , however drivers utility control panel reports installed anyone idea set midi device drum program work setup \? i'm trying use computer someone suggested try one drum machines circulating around help would appreciated thanks , terry cae wisc edu
u7911093 cc nctu edu tw \( swh \) subject redirect print manager file \? organization national chiao tung university x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 20 hello , tell find pd shareware capture windows 3 1 's output printer \? want capture output hp laser jet iii though postscript setup print file , hp ca n't try dos 's redirect program , ca n't work windows 3 1 thankx help internet address u7911093 cc nctu edu tw english name erik wang chinese name wang national chiao tung university , taiwan , r c
gel cs mcgill ca \( gilles khouzam \) subject workgroup questions \( ram licensing \) summary good choice keywords w4wg organization socs mcgill university , montreal , canada lines 55 article ny eosvcr wimsey bc ca aew eosvcr wimsey bc ca writes would appreciative someone would answer questions windows workgroups currently novell netware lite work windows well conventional memory hog \( ver 1 1 \) considering moving machines w4wg q1 much conventional ram w4wg use driver network card \? checked three files loaded 128 bytes driver bytes bytes q2 novell ne2000 card , lsl ipx drivers still needed \? w4wg uses 's drivers q3 w4wg license check network ensure machine running copy w4wg \? \( note want break license agreement buy copy w4wg machines , would like try first see meets needs returning one opened copy much easier returning n opened copies \) know , bought two copies , problems one installed , problems worry really old bios 's problem got q4 buy upgrade windows 3 1 w4wg replace win 3 1 install depend current win 3 1 files \? replace older files \( think \) prompt others q5 install windows nt server comes , troubles w4wg machines \? know started message , going ask 2 questions got carried away 'll stop \) look forward replies al hope helps gel
rnichols cbnewsg cb att com \( robert k nichols \) subject simple windows question organization lines 15 article 1993apr23 sarah albany edu jr0930 eve albany edu \( diamond \) writes running dos 5 0 windows 3 0 , lose ability print screen problem i'm running dos windows open pif file pif editor , click advanced button , reserve key application keys select section passed along application rather processed windows bob nichols bell laboratories rnichols ihlpm ih att com
manu oas olivetti com \( manu das \) subject overlapped window without title bar organization olivetti atc cupertino ca , usa lines 31 distribution usa nntp posting host oas olivetti com hi , simple question possible create overlapped thickframe window without title bar ie \( ws overlapped ws thickframe \) ws caption n't seem able get rid title bar another question overlapped window \( say v \) child windows \( , b , c , etc \) window shows 's children fine , create another child \( \) ws thickframe style placed top one 's siblings style ws thickframe used resize make sure child 't' always top 's siblings used \( \) \( \) without success 's happening resizing 't' shows soon let go , goes 's siblings help would greatly appreciated manu please mail manu oas olivetti com
cs arizona edu \( matthew h gibson \) subject win 3 1 comm drivers replacements \( question \) organization u arizona cs dept , tucson lines 14 anyone experience replacement comm driver windows called read apr 23 1993 interested willing shell 45 bucks company wants try supposedly problems occur high speed file transfer disk access made another program running time anyone pro cons product , would inter hear please email address give thanks matthew gibson cs arizona edu
freenet carleton ca \( mark \) subject file manager problem reply freenet carleton ca \( mark \) organization national capital freenet lines 29 previous article , eng cso uiuc edu \( michael r \) says whenever start file manager , status bar displayed , even though selected options menu , select , bar appears anyone ideas happening \? , really may ini gotten corrupted unknown reason tried creating either 1 exiting filemanager save setting option status bar visible , 2 double clicking control menu \( one minimize maximize \) everything looks proper \? , still n't work , may want delete ini try one two saving procedures totally recreate file scratch good luck ! mark
edmoore vcd hp com \( ed moore \) subject canon bj200 \( bubblejet \) hp deskjet 500 organization hewlett packard vcd x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 lines 9 thomas fellrath 1 nd edu nd edu wrote key issue bought bj 200 ink drying speed really try awful hard get bj 200 ink smear hp deskjets need 10 15 seconds completely dry cases , however , get pages wet unlike laser printers , material pages ink , toner go without saying think ink used deskjet family water fast
mcl cc utexas edu subject trumpet windows news readers lines 34 article ashok 653 0 biochemistry cwru edu ashok biochemistry cwru edu \( ashok aiyar \) writes article 1993apr21 liris tew kuleuven ac wimvh liris tew kuleuven ac \( wim van holder \) writes status trumpet windows \? use windows sockets \? liked dos abandon since started using ndis access token ring \( results invalid class error \( speak peter tattam , fairly sure planning winsock compliant version definitely make initial public release wintrumpet , follow shortly thereafter currently wintrumpet late beta looks like excellent product , several features beyond dos version wintrumpet supports trumpet tcp , novell lwp , also direct packet driver version people using dis pkt shim ashok ashok , wintrumpet available anywhere via anonymous ftp \? james r dept finance , 3 250 voice \( 512 \) 471 graduate school business fax \( 512 \) 471 university texas internet mcl cc utexas edu austin , tx 78712 , u bitnet bitnet education hanging 've caught robert frost
brad ravel udel edu \( brad cain \) subject changing system fonts nntp posting host ravel udel edu organization university delaware lines 18 would like change system fonts windows program generate system fonts truetype , wondering problem help set system fonts also , change icon text color icon text black , want change could n't find options control panel win ini brad cain brad bach udel edu brad bach udel edu brad cain cain snow white ee udel edu university delaware electrical engineering cain cns udel edu blah , blah , blah alt blah
paladin world std com \( thomas g schlatter \) subject removing ole server keywords ole , spss organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 22 article liverpool ac uk liverpool ac uk \( chris wooff \) writes ago installed spss windows part evaluation evaluation complete duly deleted software pc unfortunately still ghost spss left run something like write go embed object spss chart appears list objects i'm offered looked around obvious ini files without success next thing tried looking string spss chart every file windows directory turned file called req dat \( reg dat \) unfortunately file binary n't feel inclined edit 'd welcome solution removing spss list ole servers think regedit , make changes ole registration database program manager \( file manager \) choose run type regedit included windows , well documented tom paladin world std com
paladin world std com \( thomas g schlatter \) subject wo n't dos apps run window \? ! organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 8 article sigma demon co uk jason sigma demon co uk writes somebody help \? purchased win 3 1 ca n't get dos apps \( text mode apps \) run window 've tried mucking around pif settings etc , avail wrong \? \( n't get problem v3 0 \) sure 're running 386 enhanced mode \? \( windows 3 1 takes memory \)
emory edu \( dr richard \) subject approach windows \? organization emory university , atlanta , ga lines 21 x newsreader tin 1 1 pl3 article crossposted comp os ms windows apps author dr richard posted 24 apr 93 23 11 16 gmt hello seen great deal discussion herein relative merits ms access borland paradox win however , users experience database package called approach gotten number good reviews various mags seems like would require less hardware overhead paradox ruled access aspects extremely non intuitive , e g requiring field always value like 've seen paradox , seems like resource requirements greater \( 386 25 mhz , 6 mb ram \) , please provide thoughts approach , good bad thanks richard
ak333 cleveland freenet edu \( martin linsenbigler \) subject mouse com3 windows 3 1 \? organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 34 reply ak333 cleveland freenet edu \( martin linsenbigler \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu previous article , jpaparel cs ulowell edu \( joseph paparella \) says 've pursued researched question last month requirements long short windows mouse drivers n't accept mice com1 com2 using irq4 irq3 unless buy special drivers someone 've talked mouse systems say driver n't support com1 com2 , claim releasing one soon ! \? \? alternative seems possible , one case expensive , e 4 port card 600 \? \? \? \? \? \? ! ! , , author \( \) windows claim 4 port serial card buffered 16550 uarts drivers windows match \( e com3 irq5 \) 120 second paragraph hearsay , n't checked yet intend soon free 120 g hope save steps problem first loaded windows card 2 hd 's 2 fd 's 1 2 serial \( 1 mouse 1 external modem \) game port problem enters darn serial ports selection com settings , stuck 3 4 good card hd 's fd 's lousy serial called microsoft places long short windows wants com1 2 ! , mouse selection went bought small card serial 4 active com ports lpt1 lpt2 half card less 20 mouse com 1 external modem com 2 , disabled lpt2 could use interupt scanner card irq c ya artin communication sent artin university arizona tucson ak333 cleveland freenet edu mlinsenb ccit arizona edu mlinsenb arizvms death dead 2 , 000 years follow king kings
mlin nosubdomain nodomain \( ming lin \) subject word byte \? \? reply mlin ichips intel com organization workgroup computing division , pdx , intel lines 15 moved borland c 3 0 visual c today tried compile c program , complained function prototype problem turned typedef word ms c byte , unsigned int could anyone shine light subject \? word byte \? ming lin mlin ichips intel com \( 503 \) 696
ucsvax ucs umass edu \( yong kim \) subject dll \? organization university massachusetts amherst lines 7 distribution world nntp posting host deimos ucs umass edu x news reader vms news 1 24 tried install foreign language windows application required file named dll checked windows 3 1 installation disks file , could find anybody idea file one could get \?
ns1 cc lehigh edu \( olcay \) subject canon jet printer \? organization lehigh university lines 12 hi , somebody tell much canon bj200 \? buy cheapest price \? thanks advance 0 0 0
tapscott xerox com \( peter tapscott \) subject sale harvard graphics windows keywords harvard graphics , sale organization xerox parc distribution us lines 17 sale brand new , shrinkwrapped harvard graphics windows list price 500 cheapest computer shopper \( mail order \) 315 price 250 really slick package , bike race ca n't return credit dilemma fire sale peter tapscott , xerox palo alto research center internet tapscott xerox com net tapscott parc xerox 415 813
cs umu se \( peter \) subject trident driver wanted ! keywords trident driver organization dep info proc , umea univ , sweden lines 12 trident driver windows mode supported drivers fo os 2 able find windows \( means 768 wide 1024 high opposed 1024x768 \) help appreciated peter dep computing science university umea , sweden
carter photon cem msu edu \( tom carter carter photon cem msu edu \) subject winqvt net v3 4 \? organization michigan state university , chemistry department , e lansing , mi lines 28 nntp posting host cem msu edu article ashok 661 0 biochemistry cwru edu ashok biochemistry cwru edu \( ashok aiyar \) writes article 354 ocf llnl gov dave angmar llnl gov \( dave fuess \) writes earlier article newsgroup made reference winqvt net version 3 4 realy \? \? tried archie luck 's probably typo typo uploaded ftp cica indiana edu couple days back sure would like get one 's real printer problem winqvt version 3 4 uses standard windows printer drivers ashok 's still pub pc win3 uploads directory zip note new email address ! tom carter carter photon cem msu edu michigan state university carter bitnet chemistry department
monu6 cc monash edu au \( b wuysang \) subject exit codes \( dos sorry wrong group \( organization monash university , melb , australia lines 48 article 1993apr19 seas gwu edu louray seas gwu edu \( michael panayiotakis \) writes hey first , sorry post dos question windows group , i'm kinda hurry , ca n't scramble find dos names anyway , anyone know find exit codes dos commands \? 3 alternatives 1 try write small c program something like int int var int var system \( command \) display int var value \( exit code command \) 2 use 4dos com instead command com \( built move command \) also get program exist code using exec function 4dos c echo exec command display exit code command 3 get dos 6 , worth buying already qemm pctools norton , need move utility manual n't seem i'm particularly looking copy , order make move batch file , file n't properly , wo n't deleted please louray seas gwu edu thanks , , mickey pe michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace ! uunet ! seas gwu edu ! louray make ms windows grp file reflect hd directory \? \? well ai n't always right , 've never wrong \( gd \) budy wuysang student monash university \( clayton \) melbourne , australia
paladin world std com \( thomas g schlatter \) subject cool bmp files \? \? organization world public access unix , brookline , distribution usa lines 22 article 1993apr24 seas gwu edu louray seas gwu edu \( michael panayiotakis \) writes begin cut begin 666 ntreal bmp m0dtv5p 8 h \( , ! ! p ! \( ! ! f cd , 56 ! m4pa 4h p l , 1 u \) n l0 \( ! 4wa ! , j 0 b h 9tj3 kkzp 0 , , td4i zgb0 ! \) uh \( 0a 6e ! 4b ! ! ! bbzx ! e1 \) bv deleted lot stuff ! ! ! ! ! ! ! convert bit map \? \? \? 're supposed delete everything cut mark , lower cut mark , uudecode able unexpected end file encountered last line could please post , tell i'm wrong \? sounds like original poster bitmap uuencoded file dos machine , tried uudecode un x machine , uudecode program balked returns
access digex com \( barry smith \) subject program manager kills group files ! organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 3 nntp posting host access digex net clue \? times enter win 3 1 progman says need rebuild group ! 's quite annoying !
cui maccs mcmaster ca \( jun cui \) subject hold control window object \? keywords objectwindows , ms windows , sdk nntp posting host maccs dcss mcmaster ca organization department computer science , mcmaster university distribution comp os ms windows misc comp windows ms lines 30 i'm using bc 's objectwindows \( version 3 1 \) trying get data processed window object however , calling program invokes window object , gives control window object , keeps executing next statement would like calling program , invoking window object , wait window object closed \? program may look like class mywindow public void \( \) could calling program c function \? mywindow mywinobj mywinobj new mywindow \( \) \( \) \( mywinobj \) mywinobj show \( sw \) next statement want program wait mywinobj closed get data back mywinobj specified window style ws , n't help way execute window object calling program wo n't give control \? help would appreciated thanks jun talk lord ps 2 ms windows
netcom com \( edward j \) subject overlapped window without title bar organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) distribution usa lines 18 article olivea atc olivetti com , manu oas olivetti com \( manu das \) overlapped window \( say v \) child windows \( , b , c , etc \) window shows 's children fine , create another child \( \) ws thickframe style placed top one 's siblings style ws thickframe used resize make sure child 't' always top 's siblings used \( \) \( \) without success 's happening resizing 't' shows soon let go , goes 's siblings window top lower windows drawing try using ws keep lower siblings drawing top 's space ed netcom com
subject need longer filenames maystonr grace cri nz \( richard \) distribution world organization industrial research ltd , new zealand nntp posting host grace cri nz lines 10 article infoserv com infoserv com \( howard mitchell feldman \) writes 1993apr19 guinness idbsu edu , lhighley gozer idbsu edu \( larry paul \) wrote utility let use filenames longer standard 8 3 format yep , 's called os2 !
novavax uucp \( john \) subject 2 atm organization nova university , fort lauderdale , fl lines 35 rnichols cbnewsg cb att com \( robert k nichols \) writes 1 truetype font files least 1 3 larger type 1 equivalents using disk compressor , though , aware truetype fonts compress , whereas type 1 fonts \( encrypted \) n't entirely true true truetype fonts larger atm counterparts , atm fonts get minimal compression running stacker 3 0 report generator , get file type compression ratio ttf \( truetype \) 1 4 1 0 \( atm \) 1 1 1 0 \( atm metric \) 11 8 1 0 although metric files small , compress quite largely , see , even regular files compression , math one font file ttf times bytes 1 4 bytes \( compressed \) times bytes 1 1 bytes \( compressed \) still win , even atm times font n't compressed mileage may vary depending compression program heroes go , go fast john , n't expect time center psychological studies past nova univ , ft lauderdale , fl suzanne vega novavax nova edu
axa12 po cwru edu \( ashok aiyar \) subject beta testers required winsock version windows trumpet organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 19 reply axa12 po cwru edu \( ashok aiyar \) nntp posting host slc5 ins cwru edu previous article , peter psychnet psychol utas edu au \( peter r tattam \) says contact details peter psychnet psychol utas edu au peter posted behalf peter tattam north american mirror beta test version wintrumpet winsock please contact peter details ashok ashok aiyar department biochemistry , cwru axa12 po cwru edu internet access \( telnet ftp \) cleveland , contact info wariat org telnet wariat wariat org login bbs dial \( 216 \) 481 \( v 32bis \) \( 216 \) 481 \( 2400 bps \)
cheong solomon technet sg \( scstech admin \) subject please refresh internet access compuserve nntp posting host solomon technet sg organization technet , singapore lines 15 hi , sometime ago discussions gaining compuserve access thru internet seem misplace articles someone please refresh \( site \) telnet gain access hopefully download files well thanks , arthur lim email arthur mailhost scs com sg
gtonwu uz nthu edu tw \( tony g wu \) subject hate make decision ! organization national tsing hua university \( \) x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 16 hi well , really hate make decision , recently , choose whether stacker 3 0 dos 6 0 double space poor hd using 3 1 hope choose live windows help appreciated \( forever 23 , michael jordan \) tony g wu gtonwu uz nthu edu tw cae rheology lab nthu tony che nthu edu tw
leo cae wisc edu \( leo lim \) subject fast 1024x768x256 windows video card info needed organization college engineering , univ wisconsin madison lines 24 ok , 486dx50 \( isa \) w diamond stealth vram 1mb really satisfied w performance windows games needs higher frame rates dos' vga , especially new strike commander \) stealth vram give 17 5 fps \( \( use 3dbench \) winmark 6 35 million , think right i'm considering replace w new card , hopefully perform approx w current vram windows also perform dos' vga preferably 30fps also saw 3dbench benchmark list someone compiled looked speedstar 24x orchid prodesigner 2d ware fastest non local bus motherboard give 30fps dos' vga w 486dx2 66 anyone winmarks cards processor type \? one \( necessarily fastest \) \? card recommendation welcomed also , possible , get card cheapest \? \) thanks advance , folks ! martin
cit cornell edu \( bob \) subject cica mirror \? organization cornell info tech lines 2 try wuarchive wustl edu mirrors win3 directory
news leland stanford edu \( mr news \) subject hate make decision ! organization dso , stanford university lines 30 article 1993apr26 gtonwu uz nthu edu tw gtonwu uz nthu edu tw \( tony g wu \) writes hi well , really hate make decision , recently , choose whether stacker 3 0 dos 6 0 double space poor hd using 3 1 hope choose live windows help appreciated \( forever 23 , michael jordan \) tony g wu gtonwu uz nthu edu tw cae rheology lab nthu tony che nthu edu tw stacker achieves better compression ratio dos6 , yet latter comes virus detection , memory manager , multiple booting good nav , qemm opinion , package 45 , 's nice n't yet installed certainly work win31
netnews jhuapl edu \( nathan moore \) subject bernoulli drives disks organization jhu applied physics laboratory lines 22 nilayp violet berkeley edu \( nilay patel \) writes looking bernoulli removable tapes 20 20 drive n't laugh serious 20 mb tapes lying around would like get rid , please mail nilay patel nilayp violet berkeley edu mean disks , n't , tapes \? forgot say whether looking old 8 newer 5 25 sorry , use work n't think would appreciate nathan c moore johns hopkins university applied physics laboratory aplcomm jhuapl edu cis , 1576 please note address email replies
subject cool bmp files \? \? rohvm1 rohmhaas com distribution usa organization rohm haas company lines 36 article world std com , paladin world std com \( thomas g schlatter \) says article 1993apr24 seas gwu edu louray seas gwu edu \( michael panayiotakis \) writes begin cut begin 666 ntreal bmp m0dtv5p 8 h \( , ! ! p ! \( ! ! f cd , 56 ! m4pa 4h p l , 1 u \) n l0 \( ! 4wa ! , j 0 b h 9tj3 kkzp 0 , , td4i zgb0 ! \) uh \( 0a 6e ! 4b ! ! ! bbzx ! e1 \) bv deleted lot stuff ! ! ! ! ! ! ! convert bit map \? \? \? 're supposed delete everything cut mark , lower cut mark , uudecode able unexpected end file encountered last line could please post , tell i'm wrong \? sounds like original poster bitmap uuencoded file dos machine , tried uudecode un x machine , uudecode program balked returns well , newsreader shows file lots spaces , means 's broken even try download anyone get uudecode successfully \? rohmhaas com rohvm1 bitnet \( used dit ie \) famous dublin wit , barman \? certainly , sir would dry sparkling \?
organization university central florida computer services mark woodruff cda90038 ucf1vm bitnet subject bigger window headings lines 8 anyone know bigger raster fonts \? i'm using mag monitor diamond ss24x 1280x1024 mode would prefer larger characters windows heading \( practically everything \) i'm already using 8514 character sets mark idea difference \?
williams edu \( greg blank \) subject soundblaster v2 0 drivers win 3 1 \? \? organization williams college , , lines 10 nntp posting host hancock cc williams edu hi , could someone please tell drivers windows 3 1 new soundblaster 2 0 1 5 drivers sufficient \? would appreciate info thanks , greg cs williams edu
duncans princeton edu \( duncan smith \) subject question localtalk appleshare ms dos system summary make appleshare pc run properly windows os 2 \? originator news nimaster keywords windows , os 2 , appleshare pc , localtalk nntp posting host princeton edu organization princeton university lines 13 anyone running ms dos system localtalk board \? appletalk network , hooked daystar digital mc localtalk interface board , running ps 2 model 70 i'm using appleshare pc software file server network access works fine dos window os 2 dos box try load windows , every application run could get access , machine crashes hard soon start application course , things look pretty hopeless os 2 \( knows \) , anyone experience bizarre obsolete setup \? duncan duncans phoenix princeton edu
ran doc ic ac uk \( robert nicholls \) subject vb dde communications organization department computing , imperial college , university london , uk lines 49 nntp posting host swan doc ic ac uk couple weeks ago posted question concerning communicating vb using dde answers received time allowed get prototype project working however , process come new problems 1 \) seems limit 255 characters dde topic string inherent dde systems peculiar vb \? 2 \) easy query access database vb using dde sql command , \( provided limitation overcome using short field table names \) one meant update database \? \) dde sql update command seem work b \) initiating access macro using dde execute command vb cannot used macro requests information vb using second dde channel programs dead lock time outs occur \( vb access channel close access vb channel initiated , guess \) c \) access allow vb dde poke information way eventually managed update database sending key strokes vb access using command technique problem access cannot must always state ready respond sequence key strokes vb sends statements correct made incorrect assumptions \? better work \? signs odbc driver access \? bob ran doc ic ac uk
sam ms uky edu \( mike mills \) subject video cards bnc connectors \? organization university kentucky lines 14 hello , recently bought nec order get highest possible quality refresh rates , 'd like know accelerator cards bnc connectors \( opposed usual sub connector \) \? thanks information , mike mills e mail sam ms uky edu , rutgers , uunet ! ukma ! sam uk math sciences dept mike uky edu \( 606 \) 257 1429 \( work \) 263 0721 \( home \)
louray seas gwu edu \( michael panayiotakis \) subject help object appears thrice ! summary editing win ini embedding , leaving 1 entry organization george washington university lines 40 hey got equation editor , since n't appear object dialog box \( e insert object equation \) , decided manually place went win ini \( another way \? \) , embedding section , added equation equation , equation , path filename , picture n't work quit windows , go back aha mistake correct looks fine start windows n't work play , one point two entries see one works n't , finally get work thing see 's different 's first item list , used last end three equation , working \( one entry win ini \) know 's wrong \? rather , correct \? \( e make equation appear \? \) also , entries embedding appear 's obvious path filename executable , whatever , picture something way appears \( picture description \? \) others \? e , sound , sound , 's difference 1st sound 2nd \? \? \? \( n't think 's name executable , entries \( e g \) n't \) thanks , mickey pe michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace ! uunet ! seas gwu edu ! louray make ms windows grp file reflect hd directory \? \? well ai n't always right , 've never wrong \( gd \)
louray seas gwu edu \( michael panayiotakis \) subject realizing colours win ini setting changes automatically organization george washington university lines 32 got \( , think good \) , got problem option , realize colour table , 's switched , colours get screensavers \( e g flashlight one \) turn , however , works well , 's faster , 's nice well however , turn , next time start windows setting set win ini file , save settings exit selected also , tried manually changing setting win ini file n \( realize colour table \) , started windows fine session , next session turn option tried adding r \( read \) attribute win ini file , worked , bitmap \( wallpaper \) saver n't work actually , 's application , n't work , since must change setting win ini file anyone got answers comments \? thanks , mickey aka mp pe michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace ! uunet ! seas gwu edu ! louray make ms windows grp file reflect hd directory \? \? well ai n't always right , 've never wrong \( gd \)
brown ncoast org \( stan brown \) subject program manager two questions organization oak road systems , cleveland ohio usa lines 25 article 1993apr22 vpnet chi il us lisbon vpnet chi il us \( gerry swetsky \) writes \( 1 \) possible change icons program groups \? 'd like give individuality mean icons program groups , icons individual programs program groups \? assume mean latter , answer sure click \( double \) application icon , alt f p \( file properties \) click change icon box tell icon filename use browse sub selection \( 2 \) set short cut key return program manager \? know ctl esc , esc , 'd rather set avoid task list get back p alt f1 use alt tab hold alt key repeatedly press tab see program release alt key stan brown , oak road systems brown ncoast org english native language love n't try tell 's easy learn makes sense , baseline would rhyme vaseline
brown ncoast org \( stan brown \) subject winword spelling dictionaries non us english \? organization oak road systems , cleveland ohio usa lines 17 word windows lets designate text language us english \( alt f l , format language , recall \) mark english \( uk \) , still accepts rumor rumour far see , microsoft n't include english \( uk \) dictionary disks \( n't mean imply singled assume nobody u got \) dialed microsoft bbs , nothing word windows section looked helpful anyone tell obtain uk spelling dictionary winword 2 0 \? file name would spell uk lex something similar email please 'll post summary stan brown , oak road systems brown ncoast org english native language love n't try tell 's easy learn makes sense , baseline would rhyme vaseline
wlieftin cs vu nl \( liefting w \) subject mouse jumpy \? \( ms mouse \) organization fac wiskunde informatica , vu , amsterdam lines 20 ecktons ucs byu edu \( sean eckton \) writes microsoft serial mouse using mouse com 8 00 \( using 8 20 think , switched 8 00 see better \) vertical motion nice smooth , horizontal motion bad sometimes ca n't click something mouse jumps around moving mouse right relatively uniform motion mouse move smoothly bit , jump right , move smoothly bit jump \( maybe time left 5 inch ! \) crazy ! never much trouble mouse anyone solutions \? microsoft think everyone \? venting steam ! think problem think caused rubber ball mouse , n't roll smooth detectors mouse notice whoops , hit mine \( using minesweeper \) \) think solution buying new mouse , using mouse pad wouter
bo horus cem msu edu \( bo peng \) subject diamond ss 24x organization michigan state university lines 30 nntp posting host horus cem msu edu article 1993apr20 samba oit unc edu , dil admin mhs unc edu \( dave laudicina \) anyone experienced faint shadow resolutions using card windows replaced card waiting latest drivers also experienced general protection fault errors wspdpsf drv winword tools option menu winfax setup ati ultra getting genral protection fault errors spss application card manufactures must terrible quality control let products market many bugs hassle running gateway 2000 dx2 50 thx dave l 're using drivers version 2 02 earlier latest 2 03 , available bbs snailmail least fixes wfw problem reason wanted reply public instead private mail following talked tech support days ago told expect new version near end month however , problem switching back dos session standard mode apparently n't know problem seem surprised anybody would want use standard mode 's great card price , least bought may better alternatives bo peng
tony lezard tony mantis co uk subject winword checker saved ! distribution world organization mantis consultants , cambridge uk lines 28 1 fire microsoft word windows \( version 2 0c \) 2 type following paragraph want rite really dead good , cant live without one wonderfully write aids , 're get helps impress boss 3 tools options grammar select use grammar style rules strictly \( rules \) click ok 4 run grammar checker \( also spelling check \) complaints passive sentences 0 reading ease 84 5 grade level 6 6 5 2 gunning fog index 8 7 tl \( someone buy malcolm beer please \)
david fuess subject visual c organization lines 29 distribution usa nntp posting host talon llnl gov correct vc considered upgrade c7 c7 basically dos product , vc windows product windows upgrade dos , separate operating system product line , utilities cannot upgrades dos utilities however , also told upgrade qcwin , ! article pdx com hancock n105 z1 fidonet org \( hancock \) writes understanding visual c 0 \? mean , intended logical upgrade \( \) interested vc , ca n't find anything tell 's editor \? true windows app \( love \) compile times \? exe sizes \? smart linker \? well dos apps \? would like one programmers still pumping stuff dos users even though run win3 1 \( like multitasking could n't afford desqview \) link 3rd party libs easily \? use lots 3rd party libs dos programs \( lazy interfaces \) debugger make lots mistakes \( \) \? thanx n't c , would using , ! blue wave qwk v2 10 david fuess dir , center eecs phone \( 510 \) 423 2436 fax \( 510 \) 422 lawrence livermore national laboratory
farley access digex com \( charles u farley \) subject help changing startup logo organization express access online communications usa 800 546 2010 lines 21 distribution usa nntp posting host access digex net summary help changing startup logo know probably faq , installed w ati graphics card , bashed windows logo files start windows , 3 0 logo instead 3 1 logo thought files controlled windows system vgalogo rle windows system vgalogo lgo restored files , n't change logo anyone know correct files \? thanks farley access digex com charles u farley average iq calgary board ed employee 65
thia sce carleton ca \( yong thia \) subject protection fault summary fault keywords fault organization carleton university distribution na lines 13 hi ! wondering anyone could help error message goes mean \? running ms windows 3 1 thanks advance
med unc edu \( skinner ph \) subject mouse jumpy \? \( ms mouse \) nntp posting host med unc edu organization unc ch school medicine lines 33 article 1993apr23 cti com rlister cti com \( russell lister \) writes ecktons ucs byu edu \( sean eckton \) writes microsoft serial mouse using mouse com 8 00 \( using 8 20 think , switched 8 00 see better \) vertical motion nice smooth , horizontal motion bad sometimes ca n't click something mouse jumps around moving mouse right relatively uniform motion mouse move smoothly bit , jump right , move smoothly bit jump \( maybe time left 5 inch ! \) crazy ! never much trouble mouse anyone solutions \? microsoft think everyone \? venting steam ! problem first , thought video driver made sure current drivers , problem evident svga resolution modes n't help bit experimentation , determined problem existed standard vga resolution mode much less noticeable mouse older ms serial version bought second hand 1990 worked fine dos dos based graphic applications guess problem resolution mouse , borrowed new mouse \( ms bus model \) tried solved problem , mouse old , may want try replacing newer one another alternative clean mouse 've got sometimes rollers inside mouse pick ball lint debris open bottom mouse , take ball use alcohol q tip clean inspect inside hairs mouse get real jumpy cleared problem procedure
ibm uni bonn de \( christoph \) subject z modem download winqvt \? lines 9 organization institute , university bonn hello , 'd like know , z modem upload initiated winqvt script file , check works registering unfortunatly , nothing feature mentioned manual anybody help \? ciao , chris
co uk \( simon \) subject exit codes \( dos sorry wrong group \( organization communications lines 13 internal dos commands \( certainly 3 3 \) set exit code royal pain want anything checks successful deletions etc best suggestion use 4dos return exit codes also move command , simon simon , co uk communications ltd , birmingham , condition brain overload raised england \( 0 \)
bilan cps msu edu \( thomas j bilan \) subject w4wg novell organization dept computer science , michigan state university lines 23 distribution world nntp posting host walnut cps msu edu originator bilan walnut cps msu edu installed windows workgroups network i'm problems mapping drives file manager situation put lastdrive z config sys , netx run ca n't access drive f log novell n't put lastdrive z config sys ca n't access w4wg drives file manager seems way make netx work lastdrive statement config sys would appreciate help 's probably easy problem windows guru 's solved many many moons ago thanks , tom bilan department death engineering surgeon general 's warning michigan state university graduate school may cause brain bilan cps msu edu damage loss hair
doug ward subject drivers stealth 24 reply doug sun sws uiuc edu organization university illinois urbana lines 7 recently purchased diamond stealth 24 video card received wrong drivers anyone know ftp proper drivers \? file cica work video card please respond doug sun sws uiuc edu thank doug ward
binah cc brandeis edu subject windows locks green lines screen reply binah cc brandeis edu organization brandeis university lines 18 hi , using dtk 386 20mhz memory run variety programs , problems lock , trying run application wants lot memory period time \( playmation 24 bit rendered \) locking everytime ati ultra w 2meg tried video modes , excluded region video memory a000 segments use emm386 , tried adjusting swap large \( prevent swapping \) rem 'd tsr 's utilities config autoexec , even tried using default program manager , disabling hp dashboard even minimal system , swap , smartdrv , tsr 's , windows utilities exclusion video regions still locks completely \( mouse control , response anything except salute , even stop standard windows screen , simply full reset immediately \) ideas , anyone \? \? \? \? thanks tom binah cc brandeis edu
syshtg gsusgi2 gsu edu \( tom gillman \) subject please refresh internet access compuserve organization georgia state university lines 22 cheong solomon technet sg \( scstech admin \) writes hi , sometime ago discussions gaining compuserve access thru internet seem misplace articles someone please refresh \( site \) telnet gain access hopefully download files well faq , get asked twenty times month , 's right , telnet access compuserve , ftp access , gopher access internet services except e mail telnet hermes merit edu , routes , expensive tom gillman , systems programmer wells computer center ga state univ classic star trek security \( 404 \) 651 syshtg gsusgi2 gsu edu officer sometime show gsu n't care say internet , \?
gt2617c prism gatech edu \( brad smalling \) subject help changing startup logo distribution usa organization georgia institute technology lines 24 article farley access digex com \( charles u farley \) writes installed w ati graphics card , bashed windows logo files start windows , 3 0 logo instead 3 1 logo thought files controlled windows system vgalogo rle windows system vgalogo lgo restored files , n't change logo anyone know correct files \? vga card correct files ca n't copy back expect work create new win com file try command \( worry directories file since n't know setup \) copy b win cnf vgalogo lgo vgalogo rle win com \( grabbed supercharging windows judd robbins great book \) also put logo windows startup screen rle file specially compressed bmp file hope helps brad smalling jr ee ga tech atlanta , ga gt2617c prism gatech edu
servis author ecn purdue edu \( brian k servis \) subject redirect print manager file \? organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 33 u7911093 cc nctu edu tw \( swh \) writes tell program \( pd shareware \) redirect windows 3 1 's output printer manager file \? want capture hp laser jet iii 's print output though postscript setup print file , hp ca n't use dos 's redirect program , ca n't work windows thankx help internet address u7911093 cc nctu edu tw english name erik wang chinese name wang national chiao tung university , taiwan , r c try setting another printer choosing port connect choose file instead like lpt1 prompt file name everytime print file printer good luck brian servis servis author ecn purdue edu happened way actual quotes insurance claims say may think say may pedestrian idea purdue thinks way go , ran
ncratl atlantaga ncr com \( gordon edwards \) subject protection fault keywords fault organization ncr engineering manufacturing atlanta atlanta , ga distribution na lines 40 thia mira sce carleton ca thia sce carleton ca \( yong thia \) writes hi ! wondering anyone could help error message goes mean \? running ms windows 3 1 ummm think left message get protection faults time machine work , 486 33mhz 4mb ram , windows 3 1 , dos 5 0 home \( 386 40mhz , 8mb ram , windows 3 1 dos 5 0 \) never get idea could wrong \? someone already suggested check tmp files windows temp directory , none message get application violated system integrity due invalid general protection fault terminated problem applications running dos boxes \( without pif files setup \) hints help greatly appreciated please post since least one person also gpf problems thanks , gordon gordon edwards , nothing unreal exists ncr engineering manufacturing ncratl atlantaga ncr com kin tha 's first law metaphysics
ebosco us oracle com \( eric bosco \) subject help changing startup logo reply ebosco us oracle com distribution usa organization oracle corp , redwood shores ca lines 32 nntp posting host monica us oracle com x disclaimer message written unauthenticated user oracle corporation opinions expressed user necessarily oracle article access digex net farley access digex com \( charles u farley \) writes know probably faq , installed w ati graphics card , bashed windows logo files start windows , 3 0 logo instead 3 1 logo thought files controlled windows system vgalogo rle windows system vgalogo lgo restored files , n't change logo anyone know correct files \? thanks somewhere \( ftp cica indiana edu simtel20 mirror \) program called zip trick works great believe reason ca n't change files mentioned logo actually windows executable \( somebody please correct expand \) eric farley access digex com charles u farley average iq calgary board ed employee 65
ebosco us oracle com \( eric bosco \) subject ctrl alt del locks computer windows reply ebosco us oracle com organization oracle corp , redwood shores ca lines 9 nntp posting host monica us oracle com x disclaimer message written unauthenticated user oracle corporation opinions expressed user necessarily oracle whenever exit windows , ca n't use control alt del reboot computer , system hangs still reboot using reset key , would like know happens eric ebosco us oracle com
hein eurom rhein main de \( hein \) subject windows nt und x windows \? lines 15 organization free software association germany sure whether right area , anybody know whether windows nt include x windows server run x window applications remotely \? considering university use pc 's word processing program development , whereas bigger jobs run either sun workstations fujitsu super computers thank much advance , hein eurom free unix bbs home main , germany data 49 69
ucbeh san uc edu subject windows nt , help ! please help ! distribution world organization univ cincinnati academic services lines 26 windows nt need information new windows nt anything would appreciated know nothing \( well , except exists \) questions memory requirements , hard drive space , release date \? \? ibm reacting \? intel \? replace lan os 's \? anything else like specs , speed , etc thanks advance ! luke email internet address ucbeh san uc edu bitnet address ucbeh
pierson phakt usc edu \( harry pierson \) subject embedded truetype fonts organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 16 nntp posting host phakt usc edu ok 've heard rumors might even seen places 'd like info possible embed fonts document \( like write , word , ami pro \? \) file printed another machine n't font \? possible , done \? i'm sorry faq could n't find faq list would also knowing windows faq thanks advance harry pierson come , live twisted dream audio mercenary pro devoted pledge , time primal concrete pierson usc edu
mike drd com \( mike rovak \) subject workaround citizen drivers summary workaround keywords printer driver citizen pn48 gsx 140 organization drd corporation lines 38 experiencing several end user problems various commercial software packages \( wordperfect 5 2 win , publish ! win 3 1 \) printing landscape mode citizen pn48 \( little guy \) citizen gsx 140 nutshell problem lose first 0 625 inches information left margin , white space truetype font output , margins preserved subsequent pages past first wordperfect workaround consisting using default location printers instead tractor manual also filed bug continuing investigate ms write , course , problem printer drivers , proving microsoft knows something rest us n't ! surprised \? i'm publish ! win still investigating problem , consider options \( rejecting one buying 800 dtp package , surely would n't problem , right \? \) stumbled onto global workaround workaround go windows 3 1 control panel , select printers , select citizen printer driver , select setup , select custom size 850 x 1132 like magic , problems go away ask questions 'll tell lies ! mike disclaimer opinions necessarily reflect employer mike rovak drd com
dbd icf hrb com \( douglas b dodson \) subject windows 3 1 dos 5 0 smartdrv \? \? \? organization hrb systems , inc lines 59 hello , thought problem might something windows 3 1 smartdrv vesa video card ideas \? \? \? recently purchased 486dx 33 machine problems machine suddenly freeze reboot may happen windows 3 1 dos 5 0 sometimes printing document , sometimes using mouse , sometimes sitting twice happened , machine rebooted sounded seven beeps looked documentation seven beep code meant problem interrupts machine following configuration files 486dx 33 ami bios 5 25 3 5 floppies 170 meg ide hard drive 256k cache microsoft compatible mouse com1 citizen gsx 145 lpt1 ni supervga monitor vesa windows accelerator card w 1meg two vesa slots windows 3 1 dos 5 0 config sys device c windows himem sys dos high devicehigh c dos setver exe files 20 buffers 20 stacks 9 , 128 autoexec bat echo lh c windows smartdrv exe 1024 prompt p g path c dos c windows c mouse lh c mouse mouse set temp c dos lh c dos machine freezes , ca n't use mouse keyboard use ctrl alt del reboot one give help , would greatly appreciate anyone help configure machine best efficiency \( memory wise \) would appreciate also douglas b dodson internet dbd icf hrb com hrb systems , inc state college , pa usa disclaimer ! ideas opinions expressed necessarily reflect ideas opinions hrb
craig monster apd saic com \( craig lewis \) subject please refresh internet access compuserve organization saic , reston , va lines 31 cheong solomon technet sg \( scstech admin \) writes hi , sometime ago discussions gaining compuserve access thru internet seem misplace articles someone please refresh \( site \) telnet gain access try telnet 128 196 128 234 , login get compuserve network enter hostname cis 'll get prompt hopefully download files well n't , figure let know also , let know key works \) thanks , arthur lim email arthur mailhost scs com sg craig lewis saic 703 318 craig monster apd saic com
mike drd com \( mike rovak \) subject workaround citizen drivers keywords printer driver citizen pn48 gsx 140 organization drd corporation lines 43 article 1993apr26 drd com mike drd com \( mike rovak \) writes experiencing several end user problems various commercial software packages \( wordperfect 5 2 win , publish ! win 3 1 \) printing landscape mode citizen pn48 \( little guy \) citizen gsx 140 nutshell problem lose first 0 625 inches information left margin , white space truetype font output , margins preserved subsequent pages past first wordperfect workaround consisting using default location printers instead tractor manual also filed bug continuing investigate ms write , course , problem printer drivers , proving microsoft knows something rest us n't ! surprised \? i'm publish ! win still investigating problem , consider options \( rejecting one buying 800 dtp package , surely would n't problem , right \? \) stumbled onto global workaround workaround go windows 3 1 control panel , select printers , select citizen printer driver , select setup , select custom size 850 x 1132 like magic , problems go away ask questions 'll tell lies ! mike excuse , 's 850 x 1163 mike disclaimer opinions necessarily reflect employer mike rovak drd com
com \( gene \) subject workaround citizen drivers keywords printer driver citizen pn48 gsx 140 organization openconnect systems , dallas , tx lines 8 windows 3 1 , best luck using epson lq 2550 drivers citizen 140 sure download updated version microsoft allows margin settings gene , senior software engineer oc com openconnect systems , 2711 lbj freeway , dallas , tx 214 888 disclaimer employer idea going say
wongda eecg toronto edu \( daniel h wong \) subject looking latest actix drivers windows organization dept electrical engineering , university toronto , canada distribution comp lines 14 hi , anyone latest drivers actix graphics accelerator card \? \( 32 plus \) one \( version 1 21 \) seem lot problems believe latest version 1 3 would someone please upload ftp site download thanks daniel h wong uoft \( 416 \) 978 1659 wongda eecg toronto edu electrical engineering
cah tactix rain com \( chris huey \) subject workspace managers win 3 1 small review organization tactix , inc lines 28 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 jamie scuglia \( jamie zikzak apana org au \) wrote thanks people recommended workspace managers windows 3 1 found 3 shareware workspace managers , australia 's ms windows archive \( monu6 cc monash edu au \) , mirrors sites u three found 1 workspaces 1 10 \( wspace zip \) review deleted 2 workshift 1 6 \( wrksft16 zip \) review deleted 3 bigdesk 2 30 backmenu \( backdesk zip \) review deleted really appreciate information however , given n't direct internet access means n't archie access must resort using ftpmail means need site name directory workspace managers located , \( anyone else \) post email needed information \? thanks much ! ! ! chris chris huey tactix , inc cah tactix rain com voice \( 503 \) 684 custom software hour
goo cup hp com \( mike goo \) subject visual c distribution usa nntp posting host cup hp com organization hewlett packard , cupertino , ca lines 30 article lll winken llnl gov david fuess writes correct vc considered upgrade c7 c7 basically dos product , vc windows product windows upgrade dos , separate operating system product line , utilities cannot upgrades dos utilities however , also told upgrade qcwin , ! upgrade msc 7 0 qcwin visual c products follows standard edition list price 199 upgrade qcwin 79 competitive upgrade 99 professional edition list price 499 upgrade msc 7 0 139 competitive upgrade 199 includes upgrades ms language products like qcwin michael goo hewlett packard never try cover ass information networks division certainly support right ! road ms cupertino , ca 95014 goo cup hp com
kayman xenon stanford edu \( robert kayman \) subject mouse jumpy \? \( ms mouse \) organization computer science department , stanford university lines 42 article pr cs vu nl wlieftin cs vu nl \( liefting w \) writes ecktons ucs byu edu \( sean eckton \) writes microsoft serial mouse using mouse com 8 00 \( using 8 20 think , switched 8 00 see better \) vertical motion nice smooth , horizontal motion bad sometimes ca n't click something mouse jumps around moving mouse right relatively uniform motion mouse move smoothly bit , jump right , move smoothly bit jump \( maybe time left 5 inch ! \) crazy ! never much trouble mouse anyone solutions \? microsoft think everyone \? venting steam ! think problem think caused rubber ball mouse , n't roll smooth detectors mouse notice whoops , hit mine \( using minesweeper \) \) think solution buying new mouse , using mouse pad wouter taking rubber ball mouse \( directions manual bottom mouse \) cleaning alcohol \( isopropyl , believe alcohol used cleaning cassette deck \) good every often , even mouse pad dust still gets caught mouse rubber ball well , lint garbage may find 's way onto rubber ball get mouse damaging horizontal vertical sensors hope helps good luck sincerely , robert kayman kayman cs stanford edu cpa cs stanford edu theory , theory practice practice , mean want revised revision original revised revision revised \? ! \? !
nilayp violet berkeley edu \( nilay patel \) subject bernoulli drives disks organization university california , berkeley lines 20 nntp posting host violet berkeley edu article f7a netnews jhuapl edu netnews jhuapl edu \( nathan moore \) writes nilayp violet berkeley edu \( nilay patel \) writes looking bernoulli removable tapes 20 20 drive n't laugh serious 20 mb tapes lying around would like get rid , please mail nilay patel nilayp violet berkeley edu mean disks , n't , tapes \? forgot say whether looking old 8 newer 5 25 well need old 8 disks right , disks better word , big calling disks kind funny appropriate word disks nilay patel nilayp violet berkeley edu
paladin world std com \( thomas g schlatter \) subject looking tom haapanen organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 11 i'm trying find tom haapanen , formerly tom wes ca keeper faq newsgroup working engineering software , ca n't even find \( may uucp connection \) anyone knows contact tom , please let know thanks , tom schlatter paladin world std com
subject w4wg novell csc canterbury ac nz \( nick fitzgerald , pc software consultant , csc , , nz \) reply nick fitzgerald n fitzgerald csc canterbury ac nz organization university canterbury , christchurch , new zealand nntp posting host cantva canterbury ac nz lines 27 article msuinfo cl msu edu , bilan cps msu edu \( thomas j bilan \) writes put lastdrive z config sys , netx run ca n't access drive f log novell n't put lastdrive z config sys ca n't access w4wg drives file manager seems way make netx work lastdrive statement config sys first , n't used w4wg \( think 's change ! \) problem lastdrive command way netware general \( case netx particular \) adds drives device chain setting lastdrive z means \( opposed unused \) drive letters netware use , drive mappings onto end existing list drives w4wg obviously attaches network drives existing , unused drive letters 'd guess next thing 'd try something like lastdrive , machines leave fair drives w4wg still allow 13 netware drive mappings well nick fitzgerald , pc applications consultant , csc , uni canterbury , n z n fitzgerald csc canterbury ac nz tel 64 \( 3 \) 364 , fax 64 \( 3 \) 364 2332
subject fast 1024x768x256 windows video card info needed vax1 umkc edu organization university missouri kansas city nntp posting host vax1 umkc edu lines 38 article 1993apr25 doug cae wisc edu , leo cae wisc edu \( leo lim \) writes ok , 486dx50 \( isa \) w diamond stealth vram 1mb really satisfied w performance windows games needs higher frame rates dos' vga , especially new strike commander \) stealth vram give 17 5 fps \( \( use 3dbench \) winmark 6 35 million , think right i'm considering replace w new card , hopefully perform approx w current vram windows also perform dos' vga preferably 30fps ordering actix ultra plus price stealth card plus also based s3 928 chip newest fastest chip s3 everyone , looking card , see april issue pc magazine review noted person 's problem dos stealth card good dos performer actix card rated best chip class \( non local bus \) got glowing reports magazine \( best buy \) called directly updated windows drivers last week ! bulletin board get latest drivers though somone posted bbs 2400 rate , actix graphics engine ultra cards 928 class \( based winmark results \) looking around best dos windows performance check actix card 1 800 number 927 p article pc magazine noted regular dos user \( ie games \) also check 801 chip s3 apparently scores well many cases slightly better dos 928 chip \( ie stealth actix cards \) comparable windows performance cheaper buy eric
carolan owlnet rice edu \( bryan carolan dunne \) subject program manager two questions organization rice university lines 4 actually , several utilities , cn change fav plug bryan dunne
jeffj uucp \( j jonas \) subject canon bj200 \( bubblejet \) hp deskjet 500 summary many refill kits organization jeff 's house computer pieces lines 18 thomas fellrath 1 nd edu nd edu wrote key issue bought bj 200 ink drying speed trenton computer fest many sources ink hp canon , n't like ink 're using , choice frequently asked question \( faq \) list 's reposted occasionally reports refill cartridges inks available store instead specialty ink specialty price i'm sure , think found another legal source cheap injecting ink cartridges mail order succeeds jeffrey jonas jeffj panix com
bison mb ca \( stan kucera \) subject 386 organization prairie storm international , , mb , canada lines 10 anyone know program 386 available checked windows system disks 386 one thanks stan kucera bison mb ca \( stan kucera \)
jef pt stars fujitsu \( \) subject visual c reply david fuess 's message 26 apr 1993 14 22 55 gmt nntp posting host 192 8 210 197 organization software corporation distribution usa lines 20 clarify vc considered upgrade c7 product called c 8 0 \( although command line compiler vc lists version 8 00 \) c7 dos product c c compiler capable producing executables dos windows , vc \( pro ed \) \( significant \) difference vc comes many windows hosted tools \( ide , etc \) assist developers creating windows executables much quickly \( basically thousands lines code \) initial impressions favorable everyone registered user c7 received considerable amount info regarding specifics c7 n't , call microsoft i'm sure 'd happy send ! software corporation
reply donoghue donoghue win net \( kevin donoghue \) donoghue donoghue win net \( kevin donoghue \) subject line mail lines 13 looking program called line mail reader windows using qwk mail packets anyone knows good qwk mail readers please let know thanks kevin kevin c donoghue internet donoghue donoghue win net donoghue international love hear sins love act grand ave suite 273 william ventura ca 93003
cis dsto gov au subject wordbasic sdk organization defence science technology organisation lines 19 reply pitt cis dsto gov au nntp posting host cis dsto gov au request information reading organisation called winword developer 's relations group believe produced publications called winword software development kit \( wordbasic sdk \) 'the proceedings windows tools conference , sessions assembled steve would able help contact name address organisation publications thank adrian pitt systems administrator dsto corporate information systems unit \( melbourne \) 506 street , bend , vic australia phone \( 03 \) 647 fax \( 03 \) 646 email pitt cis dsto gov au
kin isi com \( kin cho \) subject viewsonic 17 experience sought organization integrated systems , inc lines 12 nntp posting host isi com 'd appreciate email post positive negative experience monitor , especially compared nanao 550i 'd summarize got multiple responses thanks kin kin cho \( kin isi com \) voice \( 408 \) 980 1500 ext 230 integrated systems inc fax \( 408 \) 980 0400
paladin world std com \( thomas g schlatter \) subject bernoulli drives disks organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 30 article agate berkeley edu nilayp violet berkeley edu \( nilay patel \) writes article f7a netnews jhuapl edu netnews jhuapl edu \( nathan moore \) writes nilayp violet berkeley edu \( nilay patel \) writes looking bernoulli removable tapes 20 20 drive n't laugh serious 20 mb tapes lying around would like get rid , please mail nilay patel nilayp violet berkeley edu mean disks , n't , tapes \? forgot say whether looking old 8 newer 5 25 well need old 8 disks right , disks better word , big calling disks kind funny appropriate word disks gee , remember old 8 floppy disks used 100 cp system back high school mention old 24 multi platter disk packs held went big washing machine drives local college took programming classes even early '80 's tom paladin world std com disk disk , matter great small paraphrasing 's travels
ewl world std com \( erich w lantz \) subject 80 col mail messages ms windows editors keywords windows editor norton desktop mail organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 31 modest system aliases macros enables download mail public access unix system ms dos box read reply mail ms windows 3 1 based editor everything works keen long author message maintained text 80 col max width sometimes get slightly wider messages run screen , use cursor slider read whole thing i'm using ndw mainly , 've experienced prob ms windows editors 've fiddled word wrap settings various editors , avail know i'm missing something basic editor setup , \? oh yeah , ms word windows converts everything flawlessly i'm looking 's like using tank crack 'd really like editor setup would display incoming ascii files readable format screen thanks advance , erich w lantz ama ewl world std com distributor 0815 '85 virago well yer dead , shut ! p
ma90jjw isis mod uk \( justin whitton \) subject canon bj200 \( bubblejet \) hp deskjet 500 reply edmoore vcd hp com 's message sat , 24 apr 1993 22 31 30 gmt nntp posting host organization dra , , uk lines 24 article vcd hp com edmoore vcd hp com \( ed moore \) writes thomas fellrath 1 nd edu nd edu wrote key issue bought bj 200 ink drying speed really try awful hard get bj 200 ink smear hp deskjets need 10 15 seconds completely dry cases , however , get pages wet unlike laser printers , material pages ink , toner go without saying think ink used deskjet family water fast 've pictures ruined drops rain colour pictures deskjet 500c mind , could acid rain \) use ink dries fast , really n't like getting wet justin whitton ma90jjw hermes uk mod relay man gone august mail ma90jjw brunel ac uk disclaimer opinions count nothing , except office empty i'm student intelligence 0
jarthur claremont edu \( derek \) subject ami pro 3 0 pctools compress \? ! \? n't like moved \? keywords ami pro 3 0 pctools compress organization harvey mudd college , claremont , ca 91711 lines 24 anyone problems ami pro 3 0 running pctools \( v7 1 \) compress \? corrupted data due caches pc cache running , first time try run ami pro loading windows , loads , causes \( think \) segmentation fault amipro exe right finishes , times managing get logo box first pops begins loading , causes general protection fault module dll 0002 1147 able fix problem except reinstalling ami pro happened twice , times ran compress hard drive btw , running stacker disk compression programs , n't already know , pctools compress actually , despite 's name system 386 40mhz , 16mb ram nec \( oem \) hard drive , etc , n't make difference please email ca n't keep newsgroup , cut net traffic anyways thanks derek jarthur claremont edu
apland mala bc ca \( ron apland \) subject w4wg novell organization malaspina college lines 29 article 1993apr27 1 csc canterbury ac nz , csc canterbury ac nz \( nick fitzgerald , pc software consultant , csc , , nz \) writes article msuinfo cl msu edu , bilan cps msu edu \( thomas j bilan \) writes put lastdrive z config sys , netx run ca n't access drive f log novell n't put lastdrive z config sys ca n't access w4wg drives file manager seems way make netx work lastdrive statement config sys first , n't used w4wg \( think 's change ! \) problem lastdrive command way netware general \( case netx particular \) adds drives device chain setting lastdrive z means \( opposed unused \) drive letters netware use , drive mappings onto end existing list drives w4wg obviously attaches network drives existing , unused drive letters 'd guess next thing 'd try something like lastdrive , machines leave fair drives w4wg still allow 13 netware drive mappings well w4wg requires dos drives use lastdrive j makes first novell drive k leaves drives g , h , j w4wg local dos drives use f ron
subject dos 6 \) darren sccsi com \( darren \) distribution world organization c 9 comm \( bbs \) 713 855 lines 11 eid 120 mb hard drive set compression ratio using double disk \? format erase everything double full 120 mb 240 \? make mirror hard drive \? thanx 4 help ! darren wm v2 08 92 origin 705 256 35 , 000 files , 6 lines , internet usenet , 1 \( 1 222
vcd hp com \( bob taylor \) subject canon bj200 \( bubblejet \) hp deskjet 500 organization hewlett packard vcd x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 lines 26 justin whitton \( ma90jjw isis mod uk \) wrote article vcd hp com edmoore vcd hp com \( ed moore \) writes thomas fellrath 1 nd edu nd edu wrote think ink used deskjet family water fast 've pictures ruined drops rain colour pictures deskjet 500c mind , could acid rain \) black ink , color n't use ink dries fast , really n't like getting wet justin whitton ma90jjw hermes uk mod relay man gone august mail ma90jjw brunel ac uk disclaimer opinions count nothing , except office empty i'm student intelligence 0 bob taylor hp vancouver
phoenix princeton edu ! carlosn \( carlos g niederstrasser \) subject reboot start windows originator news nimaster nntp posting host week princeton edu organization princeton university lines 21 recently following problem first time turn computer windows starts \( autoexec \) win31 title screen computer reboots usually second time \( reboot \) dos prompt everything works fine far remember changed config sys bat win ini ca n't remember whether problem occured optimized defragmented disk created larger swap file \( thank mathcad 4 \( \) system 386sx , 4mb , stacker 2 0 , win31 , dos 5 carlos g niederstrasser two things infinite , princeton planetary society universe human stupidity , i'm sure former einstein carlosn phoenix princeton edu space phoenix princeton edu ad astra per
oecjtb oec4 orbital dialix oz au \( john bongiovanni \) subject summary borland microsoft database c libraries organization orbital engine company lines 384 well , i'm amazed successful exercise received 20 responses 4 requests summary thanks everyone made possible able find codebase , , q e codebase c libraries without sql q e windows application communicated windows dde calls , send sql string receive results people wrote tell paradox engine borland products mentioned microsoft 's odbc , , , codebase , , q e odbc , , , q e sql , decided codebase , mostly ansi c portability version runs dos , unix , etc , includes source code , portability important application works dbase , foxpro , clipper files however , feel microsoft 's odbc looks promising 's mostly building submitting sql queries , formatting query results responses say , 's available via ftp , except 's effectively without two manuals odbc programmer 's reference odbc sdk guide moreover , odbc n't actually interpret sql databases , 's drivers provided database manufacturers also , 's windows \( 's actually extension windows sdk \) nevertheless , 's start sql interface standard , make life interesting future 's original post , followed responses , separated line \( \) anyone know borland microsoft libraries accessing respective databases \( paradox , foxpro \) within c programs \? 'd really like able build sql query string pass function returns query results format failing , access would still better nothing 'd also like hear third party libraries thing people interested , 'll prepare summary i'm told post thanks borland product called paradox engine want current version 3 0 , fully compatible \( ack \) paradox 4 0 \( versions different , n't know pd engine 2 0 compatible 3 0 3 5 \) consists rather broad library functions database files pascal \( think turbo pascal 5 5 \) c \( think either microsoft borland \) reading box 's borland paradox engine database frameworks works borland c c , c 6 01 later , turbo c windows , turbo pascal 6 0 later , tp windows 1 0 later framework applications , bc 3 0 later ms c c 7 0 support object n't real chance really use looks fairly complete i'm planning use summer rick rick husc harvard edu 617 493 617 493 harvard yard mail center cambridge , 02138 usa borland product called paradox engine know ms paradox engine know well , replacement sql , enable save restore records , locking , et al supposedly paradox windows top charles parker phone \( 800 \) 669 technical support \( 617 \) 498 centerline software , inc fax \( 617 \) 868 6655 centerline com cyberspace , n't let yer children grow cowboys know borland library routines accessing paradox within c program recently came version 3 0 works borland microsoft 's c compiler \( 708 \) 979 7101 att ! ! ms put odbc sdk public domain 's big \( believe 1 8 mb \) , worth downloading fast link look ftp uu net vendor microsoft odbc sdk also companies starting provide sql engines got one , exactly cheap 450 , allows programs c \( dos windows \) talk data bases using sql functions code walter fermilab fnal fnal gov check odbc microsoft available ftp uu net vendor microsoft odbc sdk way 've chosen access databases apps mj specialists ms windows windows nt development pp ii call information tool ssss ii miller com pp ss ii solutions , inc 612 860 pp holmes ave 5 minneapolis , mn borland sells paradox engine c language interface paradox , dbase , , ans files also sell database frameworks includes engine plus collection \( source \) c classes using engine earl ems cdc com paradox engine library functions \( large model \) accessing paradox 's databases seems working fine , never try costs 200 hope help david lefebvre david com borland provides database lib called paradox engine access use database files many things gary bell cc monash edu au gary bell department robotics digital technology faculty computing , campus , monash university , australia paradox engine library paradox ii uj edu pl borland sells paradox engine paradox calls hardly sql though searches key fields fields , comparison operators like , pretty painful \( opinion \) anything besides simple retrieval inserts updates i'm currently using \( eval copy \) 've linked entry screens 've written engine library adds 100k size program , load overlay using borland 's manager borland claims later versions engine sql support n't really expect till late year even next year trying get thrid parties help questions let know mike mike vpnet chi il us yes , borland sells paradox engine separately c , c , pascal interfaces , although underlying interface 'c' well least version 2 0 engine \( 99 \) version 3 0 engine , separate c class package michael adc portland , oregon com uunet ! ! 've used paradox \( new version almost ready paradox 4 0 \) access paradox files c pretty good sql though heard borland paradox engine supposed likewise , sure exactly hope helps , good luck ! chris slinky cs nyu edu \( christopher \) borland sells paradox engine \( 3 0 \) 's library functions accessing paradox db files comes libraries ms c 7 0 bcc 3 1 turbo pascal \( v \? \? \) believe comes turbo pascal win libraries well c libraries come dos windows flavors \( win stuff dll 's \) got , also came crystal reports graphical report generator allows create generic form use within compiled program using engine n't know still offer current price , paid something like 50 60 upgrade earlier version though hope helps david taylor commander easier change internet prism gatech edu specification fit program also cfd gatech edu vice versa root cfd gatech edu author unknown \( wise \) want sql within programs , check n't address oops yes ! systems , inc 790 dr 51 sunnyvale , ca 94086 \( usa \) phone 408 738 \( voice \) 408 738 \( fax \) ask sql win demo disk looked good \( background embedded sql ingres looked real similar \) 's little expensive , order demo wait probably send special offer 'll probably run 500 us good luck ! best , tom emunix emich edu \( tom \) borland paradox engine library libraries c pascal access paradox files dos windows paradox , believe 'd buy sql link since n't sql compliant 've used engine year pretty satisfied dos , 's real pig 120k size programs tim associate programmer university utah email tim src utah edu n't know microsoft , borland sells paradox engine c c pascal \( one package \) want dbase compatible files library called codebase software works c c davidr rincon ema rockwell com \( david j ray \) 're using q e database libraries describe 's set dll 's accessed common api talk major database formats 're using build application queries several databases using sql queries access using q e done using sql package available melbourne believe produced pioneer systems us association pioneer systems satisfied customers feel free mail information chris \( programming nsw national parks service \) chris box research programmer university new england chris law su oz au nsw \( 067 \) 727 014 paradox engine 3 0 provides complete set c libraries accessing paradox tables however , seems supports borland turbo c microsoft c tried compile engine 's sample applications waterloo c c \( 32 bit \) compiler , complains library file lib missing even though quite certain file part c engine anybody success c compilers \? ron k ng hydro ca i'm currently developing app borland 's paradox engine c \( also comes pascal \) , recently gone version 3 0 \( e , px engine 3 0 compatible paradox 4 0 , downward compat w 3 5 \) indeed c libs fox access , ca n't think names offhand i'm sure someone already written regard \( think saw add fox lib c users journal , good place look type package general , way \) 've paying dues learn lot quirks px eng past year would n't recommend complex multiuser app i'm staying 's like bad marriage 've got much time invested learning work ! interest limited simple single user interface \( want build sql engine , take \) , px engine job easily n't sound like 'll , write may able point right direction raymond cruzio santa cruz ca us \( raymond \) borland paradox engine database framework 3 0 gives c \( assembler \? \) api paradox databases part boca borland 's object component architecture technical briefs boca , , products jumbo read tasc com \( james mcnamara \) james mcnamara tasc 55 brook drive reading , 617 942 john bongiovanni , systems analyst , orbital engine company , perth , australia oecjtb oec4 orbital dialix oz au , bongo alumni caltech edu opinions expressed organisation
apland mala bc ca \( ron apland \) subject telephone cirrus logic organization malaspina college lines 14 article m86 news hawaii edu , chen galileo ifa hawaii edu \( hua chen \) writes anybody knows telephone number cirrus logic co , maker graphic card \? please reply chen cfa harvard edu thank much hua chen center astrophysics bbs number 510 226 ron
wefiii axion uucp \( warren e iii \) subject program manager two questions reply wefiii axion com organization private lines 17 1993apr22 vpnet chi il us lisbon vpnet chi il us \( gerry swetsky \) writes \( 2 \) set short cut key return program manager \? know ctl esc , esc , 'd rather set avoid task list get back p alt f1 might try recorder make micro done certain operations windows app n't ability use micro accessories window problem work , good luck warren e iii 250 street north st petersburg , fl internet wefiii axion com \( 813 \) 384 uucp ! ! axion ! wefiii
hubcap clemson edu \( david e brown \) subject drivers stealth 24 organization clemson university lines 16 doug ward writes recently purchased diamond stealth 24 video card received wrong drivers anyone know ftp proper drivers \? file cica work video card please respond doug sun sws uiuc edu thank doug ward want get get \( also date \) use bbs 1 408 439 may take hour download rates low yeah , know costs locking system gets old quick maybe someone net 've got stealth drivers david
sat eng tridom com \( stephen thomas \) subject mouse solved ! nntp posting host nut eng tridom com reply sat eng tridom com organization tridom lines 24 ca n't guarantee 'll work everyone , finally fixed mouse problems installed bus mouse \( sorry , n't say solution free \) past 'd tried everything microsoft serial mouse \( cleaning , unloading kinds , turning smartdrv write , changing com ports , \) nothing worked yesterday finally broke bought mouse systems bus mouse improvement even better imagined ! much old mouse must jumpy time \( thought jumpy sometimes \) , gotten used n't notice wife , uses computer month , noticed improvement literally within second ! ca n't say anything bus mice , mouse systems one 'll give either com2 lpt2 irq also , n't know , mouse systems mice three buttons driver includes utility lets assign keystrokes middle button hope helps someone else 're anywhere near frustrated , 's well worth 80 stephen thomas tridom \( 404 514 3522 \) email sat eng tridom com , attmail ! tridom ! sat
steve frampton frampton vicuna ocunix ca subject kermit available windows 3 0 3 1 \? summary looking windows kermit keywords windows kermit comm app reply frampton vicuna ocunix ca distribution world organization vicuna systems , kingston , ontario , canada lines 16 content type text plain charset us ascii hello wondering , kermit package \( actual package , different program kermit file transfers \) available microsoft windows 3 0 3 1 \? information would greatly appreciated please e mail post thanks advance ! ranks fan ! steve frampton frampton vicuna ocunix ca steve frampton collect postcards ! send one 501 st area , 'll send one return send kingston , ontario \( n't forget email mailing address \) canada
ramirez iastate edu \( richard g ramirez \) subject summary borland microsoft database c libraries reply ramirez iastate edu \( richard g ramirez \) organization iowa state university lines 4 could post description , chosen product thanks
spider co uk \( keith smith \) subject win nt file systems organization spider systems limited , edinburgh , uk lines 6 nntp posting host trapdoor spider co uk ok one tell dos 5 read \( hav n't tried writing case breaks something \) win nt ntfs file system thought ntfs supposed better fat system keith
ux1 cts eiu edu \( dixon berry \) subject mail order sales , billing , program organization eastern illinois university lines 20 surely one familiar mail order company goes company products , thousands clients need sales , billing , program handle thing , need able customize , source , etc anyone willing sell basic stuff \( development language \) 'll willing pay 1 , 000 ready need sort solution immediately time 'll develop one prototype two weeks , make quick cash dixon berry see light ux1 cts eiu edu end tunnel , , eastern illinois university thanks bill clinton booth library someone please tell computer resource center 's train cracker
jarthur claremont edu \( derek \) subject ami pro 3 0 pctools compress \? ! \? n't like moved \? keywords ami pro 3 0 pctools compress organization harvey mudd college , claremont , ca 91711 lines 13 sorry n't want alarm anyone n't think correlation crashes pctools reinstalled ami pro , ran compress , problems think problems may related filling disk 0 bytes \( ! \) left , although would think would n't matter since ami pro n't running time , made space available immediately anyways , whatever , cause , working derek
zmola bert eecs uic edu \( carl zmola \) subject workspace managers win 3 1 small review organization university illinois chicago lines 32 cah tactix rain com \( chris huey \) writes jamie scuglia \( jamie zikzak apana org au \) wrote thanks people recommended workspace managers windows 3 1 found 3 shareware workspace managers , australia 's ms windows archive \( monu6 cc monash edu au \) , mirrors sites u three found 1 workspaces 1 10 \( wspace zip \) review deleted 2 workshift 1 6 \( wrksft16 zip \) review deleted 3 bigdesk 2 30 backmenu \( backdesk zip \) review deleted really appreciate information however , given n't direct internet access means n't archie access must resort using ftpmail means need site name directory workspace managers located backdesk zip cica , i'm sure whole directory another throw running cica , i'm sure complicated backdesk , 've found stable usefull recomend people already used virtual desktop oh yeh , 's free copyright microsoft sanford carl zmola cicero spc uchicago edu
davidr davidr mentorg com \( david \) subject dos6 w4wg problem \? \? \? nntp posting host davidr mentorg com organization mentor keywords lines 20 running windows 3 1 , windows work groups loaded dos 6 happening appears graphics problem file manager 've added menubar buttons appears gray boxed region covers top 2 button row buttons row pulldown menus pulldown menus look fine , disk label region looks fine , see bottom pixels task buttons anyone else experience \? thanks david davidr pdx mentorg com comments paid office \( 503 \) 685 1528 're fax \( 503 \) 685 employers , ca n't
kschang sfsuvax1 sfsu edu \( kuo sheng \( kasey \) chang \) subject canon bj200 \( bubblejet \) hp deskjet 500 organization san francisco state university lines 29 article vcd hp com vcd hp com \( bob taylor \) writes justin whitton \( ma90jjw isis mod uk \) wrote article vcd hp com edmoore vcd hp com \( ed moore \) writes thomas fellrath 1 nd edu nd edu wrote think ink used deskjet family water fast 've pictures ruined drops rain colour pictures deskjet 500c mind , could acid rain \) black ink , color n't use ink dries fast , really n't like getting wet justin whitton ma90jjw hermes uk mod relay man gone august mail ma90jjw brunel ac uk disclaimer opinions count nothing , except office empty i'm student intelligence 0 bob taylor hp vancouver
aaron alleg edu subject sale borland c w application frameworks 3 1 reply alleg edu organization allegheny college please excuse inappropriate post , read groups normally see pc related marketplace newsgroups sale borland c application frameworks 3 1 \( full professional developer kit \) borland c programming package including unopened software , unopened manuals , registration card software includes 1 still plastic wrapped high density 5 25 inch disks borland c total 18 diskettes 2 individually wrapped packages , disk borland c bc app frameworks 3 1 label 2 amish system utilities windows \( one 5 25 high density disk \) amish launch amish desk utilities windows 3 lap 's 286 dos extender lite version 2 5 \( one 5 25 hd disk \) manuals include 1 still plastic wrapped manuals include \( e unopened \) boland windows api volumes reference guide ii reference guide iii windows 3 1 reference guide b borland turbo debugger 3 0 user 's guide c borland turbo 3 0 user 's guide borland turbo assembler 3 0 users guide e borland c 3 1 user 's guide integrated environment optimization command line compiler installation f borland c 3 1 programmer 's guide language structure , class libraries , advanced techniques , c g borland c 3 1 library reference runtime library , global variables , cross reference h borland c 3 1 tools utilities guide error messages , make , help resource compilers , borland object windows c user 's guide tutorials , class reference 2 opened \( plastic wrapping , \) manuals include borland turbo assembler 3 0 quick reference guide b borland turbo vision c user 's guide c borland resource workshop user 's guide package purchased former employee father 's father asked try sell since neither us use 749 , software houses approx 480 asking 400 interested , please e mail directly normally read newsgroup aaron alleg edu allegheny college , , pennsylvania
nosc mil \( kelly j grant \) subject strange 386 enhanced behavior keywords 386 enhanced , paradox organization computer sciences corporation lines 45 howdy real problem ast 386sx 16 machine 4mb ram installed paradox windows , \( n't think paradox real problem \) , installation went ok \( windows installed local drive , paradox installed novell network \( netware 386 v3 26 greater \) , dos 5 , win 3 1 \) program load 386 mode thermometer bar goes 60 either get command com' windows talking illegal instruction 've checked command com thing , long time c programmer , 've crashed share machines pointer problems standard behavior \) anyway , paradox run standard mode , enhanced also quattro pro windows , exhibiting behavior spent 2 hours borland 's tech people , avail guy talked microsoft n't want really dig help , gave pretty quickly somewhat disappointing , really expected microsoft 'd think millions windows installations would seen possible problems , guess microsoft sent us 13 page fax fixing uae general protection faults \( sorry , ca n't fax anything please n't ask , try microsoft \) , tried everything said , still luck help , please mail problem driving us nuts greatly appreciate information anyone pass thanks kelly real signature please ignore following demon signature kelly j grant nosc mil hancock st \( 619 \) 225 next time someone asks san diego , ca god , say yes ! \) kelly grant manta nosc mil \( 619 \) 553 computer sciences corp important manta uucp wo n't get hancock street given lemons see trade san diego , ca chocolate
goudswaa fraser sfu ca \( peter goudswaard \) subject mouse jumpy \? \( ms mouse \) organization simon fraser university , burnaby , b c , canada lines 40 ecktons ucs byu edu \( sean eckton \) writes microsoft serial mouse using mouse com 8 00 \( using 8 20 think , switched 8 00 see better \) vertical motion nice smooth , horizontal motion bad sometimes ca n't click something mouse jumps around moving mouse right relatively uniform motion mouse move smoothly bit , jump right , move smoothly bit jump \( maybe time left 5 inch ! \) crazy ! never much trouble mouse anyone solutions \? try flip mouse , open cover holds mouse ball place remove ball , inside see \( probably \) 3 rollers rollers tiny layer dirt , dust , otherwise scum , carefully scrape small knife \( works great \) careful want gauge rollers , clean dirt put ball back , put cover , clean couple dozen every month another symptom move mouse , seems click along n't solve problem , least clean mouse highly recommend using proper soft mouse pad , clean freak , place drawer every night n't use keep dust personally prefer track balls oh , brings another point mouse trackball tracks optically , sunlight streaming window onto mouse trackball , may notice stop working happens , close curtains blinds , simply shade pointing device , see helps peter goudswaard goudswaa sfu ca \( preferred \) pgoudswa cln etc bc ca pgoudswa cue bc ca 's gift like present goudswaard 's observation
cwis unomaha edu \( elizabeth harris tape \) subject winqvtnet ndis token ring \? organization university nebraska omaha lines 0
goudswaa fraser sfu ca \( peter goudswaard \) subject diamond ss 24x organization simon fraser university , burnaby , b c , canada lines 23 dil admin mhs unc edu \( dave laudicina \) writes anyone experienced faint shadow resolutions using card windows replaced card waiting latest drivers also experienced general protection fault errors wspdpsf drv winword tools option menu winfax setup ati ultra getting genral protection fault errors spss application card manufactures must terrible quality control let products market many bugs hassle running gateway 2000 dx2 50 thx dave l might problem video monitor instead \? many monitors , age , develop shadows white bright colors peter goudswaard goudswaa sfu ca \( preferred \) pgoudswa cln etc bc ca pgoudswa cue bc ca 's gift like present goudswaard 's observation
robertsa unix2 tcd ie \( andrew l roberts \) subject bmp format mean \? nntp posting host unix2 tcd ie organization trinity college , dublin lines 7 exactly windows bitmap format look like \? mean , data stored width , height , colours , bitmap data \? could n't find anything ths user manual , reference material would give information \? thanks , andrew
volcano ma30 bull com \( mike smith \) subject dll 's reply smith ma30 bull com organization bull hn , worldwide information systems , billerica , mass , usa distribution comp lines 28 hi , dll register class create window class type calls require module instance handle , 's 3 1 book says best use module instance handle calling program , module instance handle dll \( page 934 \) two questions 1 \) way find module instance handle module \? 2 \) possible problems using instance handle dll \? thanks advance , mike mike smith e mail smith ma30 bull com bull hn information systems inc phone \( 508 \) 294 300 concord road ma30 fax \( 508 \) 294 3807 billerica , usa
subject roman bmp 01 response requests cool bitmaps posting one pwiseman salmon usd edu \( cliff \) reply pwiseman salmon usd edu \( cliff \) distribution usa organization university south dakota lines 978 due resolution size 14 parts uuencoded bitmap 256 colors picture desert blue sky background size right centered wallpaper 1024x768 display leaves border bottom big enough icons fit without top picture reguarding image quality resolution seen much better n't worked image files , put back together 1 save 14 parts 14 individual files 2 use text editor remove header file 3 parts single file 4 uudecode file tools available without hassle \( unix \) \( windows \) neccesary could post tools get ftp let know part 1 14 begin 644 roman bmp s0 ! h ``` , ` , 4l dx2 g \( 8 \? ht , , \? k \( 1 , y9 77 \( p ui e \( 3 d0 \? \) u u ' x4 6 kl \) mb ht 7 \? , ko mkh 89 5h \? hl , w 2 u \? 0 dt ' 896 h x 7 g9v \) \( 8 mi \( h 2 g \? 8d iyd g 504 \( 59 m5 \? h \) w lk \? , xp , ' oi 2 f \) \? \( d9 f e m8 \? 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' 7' pl ' \? 34 r '0l \? \? 5u 'u '1 neu 7 ngu nki \) ki \) neu \? \? jz \? 71 nk \? \) 72 \( kh \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( `bh h bh p \( bh ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ! 45 r w g \) r k rmw \) r g \) r w mmw g m' rk vmk \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( jr q e0 ! ` h8z , `1 \) 'y najz b9 l tt , , \? 8 7u \? 51 pw \) \) l \) ng1 new pl , l \? l \? 36 6p \) z ! \? p `l ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ed \) dl 5 \? m0 2d , b ' ! tx p fjr k 0 \( zao ! a8 zl 0 u 34u ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( neu , \) , \( 'tu 34l \? 5u 'u 76 \) 2 \( \( c , b2 \( ` ! , \? g jp2 \( \( b \) m1 \) lp , 8w 6 ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( 6 ! 34u , c \( \? 1 ki \? 7w 'ay ngu , jz \? \) b \) evz \) 0 ! , 1 1 pwu 5 \? 7 \? g8 wc ! ez \? `h 5h r8 g \( b9r g \( \) r g \) r k mk7 \) \? k \) rmt r ju k g \) r ah lg \( b8 72pl \? 7u 4 q r qrr q , \? 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'o ' \( m` ! lc4 \( 34u 34 \? vx \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` zng \) r ajw \) r jur 7 \( 5 urmw \) \( ` \( n \) x \? 8 zn \( \( `cn 0 1d \( g yl jz ! w ! 2cz fim 5e9 ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( 34u 5 g \) rmw w ah g \) r najz \) eu 7 772z 'u \? 5t 86 , p h 1 f \) 4 ! e r k r g mmw \) v ' \? 4 5 x' \) r \) kh g \( \) \? z7 jz \? jz u nl \( ajr ahf \) air g \) r 15o aoj \( mj \( ` \( j`bh \( ` \( ` \( \( `bh ao aoj \( j \( v h bh 6 v 5 145 5 q45 zvm zvm 6 mk vm v 5 6 5 q6m zvm vm zuo 1 5 6 wk w k w jt g \( g \( g \) g g g \( ah \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` 5k wk t5 g ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` ahf \) ah ah g \) rmw \) r ah k wk7 \) a6m mk 5 vw a5r g \) k r k \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( rnk \) r b8 g \( \) jvw r jvw v qv g9v h2 \? g \) 6 , j ij \) j ` \( ` \( ` \( `a 2 0 7 \( \( , aw ! , ! 9 q pet \? w g w g \( 5 g \( q h \( b q \( \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( \) ! 3 n`dl 2d q \( f i2d , l tt , b m' \? \( \? k 75u \? 0 , qa 34 \( 34 \( 0 \( ` \( ` \( zng \( \) r ah ajw \) g \) r g \) r k r b8 \) \( ` \( ` \( ` \) 3mh \? b b sk \( 1d 6j3 n \( `p2' 'jz c ! fim 7 9 ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` , \) r , c4 3 u 9r end part 4 14
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tp \( `cn c9 2p \( ' \? g jp n \( m1 \) \? 15o 6 h q5o 6 5 h \) v kqv , p 4 0 \) 6 hj 5j 5 6 h 6 5 v v h v h \( \( \( q nl e \) 6 ! \? \) lp , l , rw r k ah , \? k 3h rl im 5m u 6 5 q6h 6 5 q45 145 v 5 q45 14 \? rmw \( k r k \( f air air k f k r wm mk145 15o 6 5 v hj bh \( `bh ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( `bh `bhj \( aoj h v v 5 zbh v v v h p \( bhj \( `bh \( aoj zbh v q6m 145 1 mmw \) r k rmqir k k r g g wk7 \( 5k 16w zuo q6m 6 mn n ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( 1 mk7 \( zvm 16h 6 h zbh zaoj bh pao zbh oj pao v h v h q5o 6 145k uo \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( `ao q45 q45 6 5 zt5 w t5 uo 6 v v 5 q5o v \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( \( `bhj 0 \) \) vo ! , 3 q , 3 q , 7z z4 , ! j mcc \? \? \) nb \) 6 i2d , \( n2 ! e \) 24 \) , , wi w ms \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( qt 6s \( 1 8p , ! p , p7 air ` \( ` \( ' \( 1 34j m1 z 9 ndk \( b \) \( f \( t5k , yv h0 ! `1 dlv mu x \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( w g \) r ahf mmt \( ` \( ` \( ` \( 4 \? 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w g \) r g w g z k \( lb k q ' l 6c \) \? e js \( cn 7p \( ` \( ` \( ` \( aa \) 1 ff 2 9 ic q k , \) q5o 6 aoj ! 5o zaoj ! 5o v 5 v q45 6 ok6 5 mk7 \( g w g \) rng \) r g \) r \) air g \) r \) g \) r g \) r g \) r g m3 jvm 5 ok6 5 t5 uo q45 wk7 \) jvw ah \) g z g \( air g \) r g \( f ah mw \) rk vm 6 ao 6 v ao ` \( 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax mn n 7ey 7ey 7ey n n bhj bhj gizw \? 1t ei0l 9f9f9 l pne1t \? \? km `p , f \) q 5 bs0tq6 g tq , 3 r \) b8f \) r g \) r \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( k r \( fng \( f kjz \( \) k \( g \( \) ah g \) r g \) r m3w q5o 15o v ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( m3w \( f lb z \? k 70 \) \) 6 k rlk p 4w v 0 \) \) 5 6 6x \( 2 , 4 ! 5e8 \) w ms \? , p \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( k q6m 6p \) c 4t 6c 6 p8 \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( \) ! 3 z 2y ! m2j k k un q' p \( j`bh ' q dlv \? w \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( `bw k r g \) r g \( 5k \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( uu , 2 \( `cn e 5 \? \( 0 mi z 9 \) , 8 ! k \( kjz k \) r \) ro ev v dm 4 0 \) u h \( j \( bh v 6 5 v 5 k w g \( q e0 \) \? e n , ao 6 hj 5 fs ` 9 \( k , 6 h v oj \( ` \( j` \( \( ` \( ` \( ` \( j \( \( v oj ao z 5 mk t5k vwk 5 5 q5o 6 5 v hj \( j \( j` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( bh zao z 5 v v 5 16h 6 5 v 5 6 5j h q45 z 5 15oj 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax n n n n n n n n n n nriz giz gizw '1t ' mi 4 v9fq , 3 q , 1f \? \? km `yd 7 9l v , 5g tq , b8g \) 145 14 m5 \) 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di \) 45 145 0 \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( `bh \( bh `bh ao v oj ao 6 5 q45 vwk t5 7 \( 5 jvwk \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( `bh ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \) p , ! , rl ! m`0 7g 51 , v e \) g mmw \( k 0 \( \? ij \? p \) v ! 46 ! 0 \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( `ar \) air ah g \) k ws 6 ! b \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( 6um 3 z 2y` 2j l qk q 2j l' fu w o' p5 v w , pwu q dlv \? w \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( `ar \) ajz hf mnki nkh \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( 1 r b k b , b m2 5k6 n pe 5 \? vi yj 9i , 1 e , q 6 q45 6 fy lc \( 0 \) u v 5j t5 6 w 16m 16m vmk \) 60 \) \? e jl 05 mm 9 , 0 9 , fb ! h \( , 40v , x7 \) rmw \( 5k vw k 4 zuo 15o v zao v oj bh pbh \( `bh zbh bh mj ao zao 15o 15o 16w 7 v q5o 6 v zbhj h \( ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax j biz giz giz giz \? mwt '1t '1t ei4 'wt 'i 6e pl pl z5'1 z bj 7 9 7 p 8ltq6 g m3 r \) r d65 22di 5u 75u 75u 75u 75u 75u 75u 75u 75u 75u9 2di 2 mdi 2di \) 45 06 lg \) b8f \) 3 q , 3 q , 3 p v g9p \( ` \( ` \( ` \( 6 q5o v v h zao \( \( ` \( j bh ` \( ` \( bh ` \( j` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( j bhj ao q5o v v hj bh \( ` \( j \( \( 4p , p \? h \? `e \) 9 081 zr ` \( j bh p \( 0 b \( hl \) , 'p \) v ! 1 5 1 0 \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( `bw zt5 5k u k wk w 6 p7 \( 1 , \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( j , ! 3 z 2y` 2j q \( fx tt q \? 2j l ! vu \? gy p ' , g92 , dlv \( ' \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( `bhj bhj aoj bh v \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( 1 ! , \( , jd \( ' \) r g n b`z yi ! v`3 m2 ! c bhj bh \) v fy \( 0 \) u ! 5 6 5 v 5 6 5 v h oj hj ao v kp3 'a ! \) \? \( 5 nk 1rk 5k mk t` 5 yw 4 \( z , x7 \( b \) \) kjz vz \) kh ajm g \) r 145 6 5 q6h q6hj bhj v v q45 \) r air air \) jz \) ah h 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax z giz gk \? w \? wwiz giz giz giz \? 1t '1t '1t '1t ei 6ei4 mnuy `p 9 \) q 5 mb , b8g \) 75u 5 0d \) 0d \) 0d \) g9v mg9v 0d \) 0d \) u 75u 75u 62di \) 45 06 \) r8f \) b8e , 3 q , 3 q , 3 p 9v g mq 7 q30t 2 b wm4 p 1eq 2tm 2 g \) r rk g \( g \) \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ajw g jvmk rmw \( k rk air g \( mu \) 75u p \? h9 u 0 \) 9 j \( , cb \( 5 a9 9 vc ! 6 \) v ! 1 \? 7u 0 \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( bhj \( 6 5k vwk mk16w l \( 1 4t pw , 8 \) 0 \( ` \( ` \( ` \( j ! 5o v xp , ! 3 z 2y` m2d q x tt , b q tz l 0 u p5 \( , k 6 1 \( ' \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` 5 zbhj bhj \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \) 6c 6c \) u b`z `0 , 1j 7 \) r g \) r jt g \( g kqv m`0 1 4m \( `b \( 5 15o 6 oj ! 6h v \( ` \( j` \( j` \( ` \( ` \( `bh `bh \( v , 3 \) \? \( 5 6 rv uj \( 0 \( ` \( `bh `ao zb 4g dg r \( w 1t c , g , 6 5 5 145k t5 v 6 v 5 6 5 6 v 5 6 16m u v max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax z ghj bhj bhj kn nrj n n nrhj gizw \? 1t ' mi 6ei 5'1t '1t 'i 1fp4 3 r \) r d6 e22u 750d \) m0d \) 0d g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9u 0d 5u 75u 75di \) 45 06 lg \) mb8e , 3 q , 3` g9v gq 4tbxom u34u 3l pl `9 7 qtm \( 3t f9f9f0 m7klj gk \? 1z6e v , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' 9 l p \( ` \( r 145 vm v v 145 5 7 ! 3` \) rn ! h9 1o ` \( ` \( ` \( ` xp , cb 45 ak l k 3 ! 6 \) v ! 1 5'u 0 \( ` \( ` \( ` \( q5o 6 15o 15o q5o v 6 5 v h \( 1 4t q ! 9 e \( ` \( `ar k r b8 f u 3 z p ` 2d \( tt l tx 6j 0 uko p \( ` \( xs , rlk 6 0 g \) \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \? 1453 \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ' 82 4 ! b \? , e ! b , fo u , ! v`3 1j \( q k wm w b8 lah \( 3 q a` k 6 e \) 4 \( ' \) r ajwmw \) jur k a6m jvmk r 1 mk7 \) a5 jt \? k \) \? \( 73 6 \( 1r k w air air \) q k \? 43 w8 \) c 5h 1 518 \) , h ` \( ` \( ` \( `bh \( j` \( j ao v h 145k t5 mm k 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax '1 \? ghj kn nuy 7kn mn lj bhj bj nrj n lj biz ghj giz giz 9 7 9l , 3 r \) mb d6 e22u 75u 75u4 \) 0d \) 0d \) 0d \) 0d \) 0d \) 0d \) 0iv g9v 0d \) 0d 5 mu 75u 75di 25 14 a86r f \) b4q , 3 qgq 7 0t 0t 2 b u34 pl `9 7 qtct 7klj 'i0l 9l3 q , 3 q 9f z5'w z giz giz giz ghj bj bj n n nrhj bj n lj giz gk \? 1t 9f ` \( 7 ! 1 p `x ! p ! h9 1 p ut ` \( ` \( ` \( cb 45 \? k 3 ! 6x q1 5'u p \( ` \( ` \( w g \( f g \) ah air rmw \) r jvmk7 \) k ok6 5 g4 ! 8 \( `bh ` \( \( j` \( j mu ` 2d l' l ' ! \( 7 wo p \( ` \( xs , ro0 g \) \( 0 \( ` \( ` \( `ao 145 6 \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` mt , \) q \) ' , 145k u , b`z \( ' ! v`3 yj 2we m2 28 \( q ` \( `bh ` \( `ao q , , rlk 4m \) k \? zao v mk r \) r b \( \) b z g \( f g 0i , \( 6 \( pf \) ajr \) \) w k 5 3 \( c 4 e \) ` , \? 518 oj ! 6'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' m1t '1 \? wwiz giz giz bhj bhj giz bhjn 7 , `p , `p 9f9f9 3t mtm \) q 1fp 8ltq6 , 3 \( g \) 75u 750d \) 0d \) 0d \) 0d \) 0d \) m0d \) 0d \) 0d \) 0d \) u 75u 75u 75u 75di 2de145 ! 86 \) r f \) b8f \) 3 q , m3` v g9 7 2 b wm u34u u34u pl p 7 q 7 q giz \? w z bj nuy `p 9f9d 3v9f9d , `p , `p mn n nrhj gk \? 1t ei 7 ! 1 l`x e \) p ! h8 w q j ax 'ax ' ` \( `a 3b a` 5 \( k m45 140 \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( bh zao q45 p \( \( 4f ahf b9r g mmw \) ! u el mtt l , 7 ! \( u \? ku l p \( ` \( 7 ! 6 mxs , rlk g \) \( ` \( `bw \? k 14 \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( j n , \? , y1 15o 6 ` jp2 \( m' z 2we 28 3 ! 145 1 5 15o q45 u \) vo r k , r5 2tl \? v zbh zbhj bh \( \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( `bh ` \( \( 0 ! ex c 0p , \( 6 h ` \( 'ax g p3 , 0 \? eh e c 1 \? 518 ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax '1t 'w \? giz bhj bhj bhj bhj bhjn `p , 3t 9f9f9d 2 1d9l pl , b g \) a945 22di mu 5 0d \) 0iv g9v g4 \) 0d \) 0d \) 0d \) 0d 5u 75u 75u 75u 75u 75di 2 ! 86 a86 a86r g \) r8f \) b8f \) 3 q , 3 q , 3 p v \? 9v g9v g9 7 q30t \( n u34 p 7ez nrj nuy `p 9 3w2tm \) q 7 q 7'2tct 3t f9f9f9f9f9d `p , `uy n n n n n n n n e b \( 4 l ` e \) 76 p ! h9 r q , 3 q , 3 q q , 3 a` 5 pb 0 9 \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ap \( ` \( mj \( j \( \( ` \( ` \( 9z \( ! 8 \? v 5 6 145 ! , \( tt l , ! u u l p \( ` \( 5e 4 xs rl ! , v 0 g 4u l \( ` \( zbh \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \( 1 6t \? , u 7 \) rmw n \( ' z 2we 8 \) ! g \( ah \) l z u \) q , 3 h0 ! e6 e \? jur g \( 6 q v 5j \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' u 2 mm uj \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax k rod u \( h 1n , c4 l 7r 6 ! 1 , x8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax e1t \? \? wwiz bj 7ex `p , m`p , `p 2 7 q 2tm 2tm 2tm 2 7 q 1d9l ! 3 8lt mq6 3 q , b8f \) b g \) r d6 e145 \) 2u 75u4 \) 0d \) 0d \) 0d \) 0d \) 0d \) 0d \) m0d \) 0d 5u 75u 75u 75u 75di 25 145 145 14 a86 \) r g \) r8f \) b8f \) m3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3` 9v g9v \? q 4t \( om 5 p 1eq \( mf9d 3t f9f9 3w2tm 2tm 2tm 2tm \( 3t 9f9f9f9f9f9 3t 3t b \( 4 e \) 76 `0 ! h9 4a i0l pl pmf 3b a` 5u , 2 9 3` x0 4 u 4c \( 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a 0e1 \( 5b \? , 'ax 'ax 'ax , ! r ! l , 7 6g ! u u 'ax 1 r ! , v 0 b 4 \( n'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax mt 4 l7 1 8 'ax \? n fm \( ' c0ryl6b`p3n 2we 8 \) ! ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' u \) vo \( \) vo ! , 3o 4 \( \( ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax '4 l oj ! z , 0l \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax u p h2 0 itt qk 18 ! \) x 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' m1t \? \? wwiz kn 7ey 7 , f3t tm 2tm 2tg q 1fpl p 1d9 1eq 7 q 7 q 7 qtm \) q 1d9 1fp4u 34 v q6 3 q , b8f \) b8f \) r d6 a865 145 14di 2 75u 5 0d \) 0d \) 0d \) 0d \) 0d \) 0m75u 75u 75u 75u9 2di \) 45 14 m5 ! 86 a86 a86 a86 lg \) r g \) r8f \) b8f \) b4q , 3 q , 3` v gq 4t \( om4 p 7'2tm 2tm \( 3t 3w2tm 2tg q 2tm q 1d9 1d9 pl p ml pl p 1d9 1d9 1d9 5 bhj \( e \) 76 `0 ! h9 e1 , ! , j ij , dw '1t 3b 45u , qk 2 9 ms , r , f q , 3 q , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' \( 6 ! n 'ax 'ax 'ax 0u \) l ! u u r'ax wu b 2 h2 , v 0 m34 \? 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a 6t 6 pw , 7u 8 'ax \? n c9 p \( m' c0ryl6b`p3n 2we 8 \) 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' y5v w9v mo ! , 3 q \) 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax p z qk \( , 0l \( l r'ax ' max 'ax 'ax f 0 5 u' , gq \) x ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? \? w z bhjnux `yf9f9d \) q 1d9l ! 3 wm wm u34u 3l pl ! d9 pl ! `9 1fpl p4u 8n bxlt , 7 9v 3 q , mb8f \) r g \) r186 a86 a865 22dm75u 75u 5 0d \) 0iv g9v g9v g9v g4 \) m0d 5u 75u 75u 75u 75di 2de145 145 145 06 a86 a86r g \) r g \) r8f \) mb8f \) b8e , 3 q , v gq32 b wm 5 34 wm4u pl ! d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 ml pl pl 8lt , 7 q 7 0t 0t 0tbxn bu 75z \( e8 f \? g \) , ! `9z ij gk \? w \? wt '1t 75 3b 45u , qk 2 9 w 8 , \) , 8 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 , 3 q , 3 qax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax x k8 6c 5e 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max lt 4 l ! u l r'ax 'ay k 0 e \? 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a 6t \) r \? u 'ax \? n c `p , \( ' 9 3e 8 \) sax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax ' r r q \) ! sx 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax p ml \( \( h ! 0 qh s3 mm , 0l \( l r'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax u \) 0 90 6`w , 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax e1t \? \? wwhjnux f9f9f3t 2 7 q 1fpl ! 34u pl 34u 34 wm4u 34u 3l p 1d9 pl ! 34 v mbs0t , 5g p , 3 q , 3 r \) b8g \) r g \) r g \) a945 22di 2di 5u 75u 75u 75 mu 5 0d \) 0d \) g9v g9v g9v g9u 0d \) 0d \) 0d \) 0d 5u 75u 75u 62di 2 m5 145 14 a86 a86r g \) r g \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) 3 q , v gq 4t \( n u34u 3 ml pl 34 wm wm v bs0t 0t , 7 q6 p , 3 q , 3 q , 3 p p p g m9u 75u ex , ! `9z \) l n bhj giz mw 75 3bx ! 45u , qk 2 9 ! q , 0q , 3 q , 3 q mq , 3 q , 3 q q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 0 , ' ! mc 'ax 'ax 'ax \) 7z v u 2 \( 7 l ! ! \? ku 'ap k pu q ble e 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax m8 \? , 91 \) x 'ax \( ' 9 3e , 28 , ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' qv g9v 4 '0 \) ` x ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' ! wb \( 8 '8 ! 0 fq vs , 0 \( 'ax 'ax 'ax x 25 32 0 \) otc ` r4 4e \) , \) x 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' mw z bj 7 , f9d tm \) q 1d9 1d9 1d9 1eq 1d9 1fp4u mbxlt 0t 0t mb wm4u p 1d9 7 9 5 mbxlt 0tq 7 9v 3 q , 3 r \) b g \) r186 a945 \) 2 mu 75u 75u 75u 75u 75u 75u4 \) 0d \) 0iv g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v mg9v g9v g4 \) 0m75u 75u9 2di 2de145 14 a86 \) r g \) r g \) r8f \) b8f \) mb8f \) 3 q , 3 p v g9 7 q30t , 4t 0t 0t 0t 3 q6 g p , 3 \( f \) mb8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8e , 3 q , 3 75u '0 yx ! ! uz e \) ! hd biz gk \? w \? w 75 3bx ! 45 , ' 'l h , p4 \? , su 1 \? u 8s 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' \( k8 , ' ! c \) 2'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 7z 2 k7 l 3bt ! oo 0 u ! mp 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'az \( \) , \) , 'ax \( m' c0ryl6b`p3n 9 3e , 28 3 ! 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax g92 \( 2 61 , 3o \( x 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax ' ! yz p ! 1l \( 8ah \( h 9 \? fs \( 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax xp t2 0 , 4 c 8 x8 ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax z bhjnux `yd tg q 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9l p 1d9 p4 wmbxn g9 7 2 wm wm 5 3 v bs0t , 7 q6 g9v g m9p , 3 q , b8f \) r d6 e14di 5u 75u 750d \) 0d \) 0d \) 0d \) 0d \) 0d g9v mg9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g4 \) 0d 5u 75u 75u9 2di \) 45 145 ! 86 lg \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r8f \) b4q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3` p p tq , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 \( f \) b8f \) b8f \) b4q , 3 q , u 75u '0 p ! q uz ze \) td pl pl 3b 45 , cl h , 4 \? 8 'u \? 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax '4 , ' , \) 2'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'a ! 7z 0r 2x 7 3bt ! u u 6j 'ax 'au k , x2 , 0 e 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a g ! 6 ! u6 16 , \) 91 'ax c9u 26j33n \( ' c0ryl6b`p3n 9 , c 28 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax ! `9z `0 ! x0 ! kp ! 75 r \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax p ! 1l \( 1 ql kh 9 6a mm 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? `p fh t2 0 'p x w m8 4 gs h , , x8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax j bhjnux f3w2 7 9 p ml p4u 34u 5 34u pl ! 34u 5 8ltq 5g9v g9 7 5g9 7 , 7 q 7 q 7 q 5g p tq , 3 r \) b8f \) r g \) a945 22di 5u 75u 75u 5 m0d \) 0d \) 0d \) 0d \) 0d \) 0d \) 0d \) 0d \) 0d \) 0d \) 0d \) 0d 5u 75u 75u 75 mu 62di 2de145 14 a86 \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) mb4q , 3 q , 3 q , b8f \) 3 q , b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8e , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , p g m9u 75u '0 p ! sug \) , , p yz ` e \) ! 'ax 'ax ' max 75 0 \( 7 \( 5 h ls , 4 \? \? 8 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ! 3zl , ' , 'tc , r'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a `45u 7p2 0u 2x ! g 3bt ! g 6n 'ax , `2 25 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a , l c 'ax c9u 26j33n \( ' c0ryl6b`p3n 9 mx 8 c \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax mp ! 1l \( 1 khm 6a , 0l 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? `6 fh p' mgf tojx sp 4 \? 4 gs 4 j , 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 9 3t 3w2tm \) q 1d9 1d9 1d9 pl pl v 0t 0tq 7 9v g tq , m3 q , 3 q , 3 q , p g9 4t 0tq 5g9v g9v tq , 3 q , 3 q , b8f \) b8g \) r g \) a865 145 \) 2dm75u 75u 75u4 \) 0d \) 0d \) 0d \) 0d 5u 75u 75u 75u 75 mu 75u 75u9 2di 2di 2di 25 14di \) 45 145 145 ! 86 a86 \) r g \) b8f \) mb8f \) b8e , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , p g mq6 g9v g9 4t 0t 75u '0 p ! \( yz `0 \? n v ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 7 , 745 aw h ls , 1 1 1 m8 \( pm 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' k ! , , c 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a `45u 7p2 \( u 2 mx ! g \? 6g \? l 4` v 0 4 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a r xp , , ! h c \? , x8 'ax c9u 26j33n \( \( l 4e c \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax '4 u \) , x2 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax ' ! 1l \( 1 khm 6a \? , 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax \? `6 fh tojx n 4 \? 4 gs 4 ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 9 1d9 p4 v bxn wm4u 3l ! d9 p4u 8lt , 5g9v g9p p , 3 q , 3 \( f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , p g m9v g9p tq , 3 q , b8f \) b8f \) b g \) r g \) a86 e145 14di 2di 5u 75u 75 mu 75u 75di 2di \) 45 145 ! 86 a86 a86 a945 145 145 145 145 145 14 m5 ! 86 lg \) r f \) b8f \) b4q , 3 q , 3 p p , p p tq , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , tq , m3 q , 3` v gq 7 , 7 9v g9v \? q 7 q 75u `k p ! yz `0 \? ax 'ax 'ax 'ax b ` itz \( hn aw h ls , \? 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 4 ! 3 q 1 , , ! 'ax 'ax ' max 'a 7 b \( u 2x ! \? ! g \? l 'au \( , uv ! 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a uu zs , 4 \? , \( 'ax c9u 26j33n \( ' z ws \) 4 ! e ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax \) ! p 3 \) zc h 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' ml \( 1 khm 9 mm , 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? `p , fh tojx n m4 \? 4 r4 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax bxn bxn 3 q6 g9v g m9v \? q 7 q 5g9v g9v g p , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , b8f \) b g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r8f \) mb8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 r \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) mr g \) r g \) r d6 a865 145 145 06 a86r g \) r f \) b8f \) b8g \) r g \) r g \) r186 lg \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) b8f \) b4q , 3` p 9v g9v gq 7 q 7 mq 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 q 5g9v \? q30tbxn wm4u v b wm 5 34 wm4u 3 5 75u ! ! \? zp ax 'ax 'ax ' max 46v itz \( , h ls , 4 u 5'u \? vh 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 8 ! , , e 6'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a 7p2 uu 2x ! ! g \? l 'ax w ! \) 75z ` 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a u mr tc 3 , 41 w p2 \( 'ax c9u 26j33n \( ' ! v`3 z vc ! c mh9 8 ! ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 5u ! rn ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' c ml \( 1 kh , 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? `6 ko 2 0 n 4 \? 4 pw 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax m9v g9 7 q6 gq 7 q 7 q 5g9p 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , b8f \) b g \) r g \) r g \) mr g \) r d6 a86 a86 \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) mr g \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b4q , 3 \( f \) b8f \) r g \) r186 lg \) r f \) b8f \) 3 q , 3 q , m3 q , 3 r \) b4q , 3 q , 3 r \) b8f \) b8f \) b8e , 3 q , 3 q , 3 \( e , 3 q , 3 q , p 9 4t mbxom 8om wm4u 34u 34u v b wm wm4u 34u 3l pl pl pl p ml ! d9 7'2 3t tm 2 7 q 5 75u ! ` ! a` ! r1 ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 46v itz \( n h h , 4 \? 45 1 , \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' \? \) , , e 6'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 7z 0u 2 mx ! ! x ! g \? 'ax 'ap ! au b5 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a u b 4c vj 2 \( 'ax \( 0 c4 qb `3 \) \? sax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' ` ut fy p , u \) 2n a` 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax ' ml \( 1 ql kh , 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax \? `6 02 0 n 'p , 8 6k b3 9 x8 ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \) b8f \) b8f \) b4q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 r \) b8f \) mb8f \) b g \) r g \) r g \) a86 a86 a86 a865 145 145 06 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86r g \) r g \) r g \) r8f \) b4q , 3` p p 3 q , 3 \( f \) 3 q , m3 q , 3 q , p , 7 q6 gq 7 q 7 q 7 9v g9v g9v g p p tq , 3` g9 7 q pl `9 7 qtm 2tm 2tm 2 7 q 7'2 3v9f9f9 mf3t , `p nrhj bhj bhj bhj bhj ` ! ! j ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 46v itz \( 5 n q \? 8 , q \) 1 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'avs \( 7z \? l 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 7z vu 2x ! ! ! k5h q ' 'ax 1c 3 , 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax lk , yd 'ax \? n , jp2 0 y1 \? 5 pax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax ' ` u8 ! fy p , , xv ` ! 4e 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' p ml \( 1 q kh eh s3 mm q , 0l \( 'ax 'ax 'ax x6 b \) 02 0 n 'p x 4 ms ! 6`w \) 3 9 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) mr g \) r g \) b8g \) r g \) r d6 a86 a865 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 14 m5 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 ! 86 a86 a86 lg \) r g \) b8f \) b g \) b8f \) mb8e , 3 q , 3 q , 3 p 9v \? q 7 0t 0t 0t 0t 0tq 7 0t 2 bxom 5 34u 8n bxn bs0t 0tbxom wm4u 34u 3l pl ! d9 2 3v9f9f9 mf9f9`p nrizwt '1t \? \? w \? gizw \? wt 'i 4 pmf9f q , 3 q ' q , 3 mq l45u ` ! ! p ! mej 0 \( ax 'ax 'ax ' max p itz \( 5 , ! 1 st \( 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'avs \( 7z \? \) h ! 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 7z vu 2x ! ! ! \( 7 ml q 'ax 4 \) \( 3 hem 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? b' 3q q q x 'ax \? n c `p v \? \( \( rk \? 478 ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' `4 fy p , , xv ` ! `5 ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' ! mp ml \( 8ah \( ! 0 , 0 \( pq , 3 qax 'ax 'ax xp , b p' \( 102 0 n p , e ` 5 w \) 3 9 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 6 a86 a86 a86 a86 a865 14 a86 a86 e145 145 22di 2di 2di 2di 2 mdi 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di \) 45 14 m5 14 a86 lg \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) b8f \) b8e , 3 q , 3 p p g p 9v g9v g m9v g9v gq 4t \( n 5 , 9 7'2 3v9f9d tg 9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1eq 7 q 1d9 1d9 1eqtm \( 0 n lj bhj gizwt e , 3 q , 3 q q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 7r ! \) j uax 'ax 'ax 'ax p x 7 \( 5u , , p8 '6 ! 1 m46 , c \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' 4 k9 ic 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 7z vu 2 mx ! ! k7 ' ! \( 7l q 'ayz 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax r 6n p , b x 'ax \? n c9 6p `z v ml \) \) 2k 1 18 ! 78 ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \) m` \) 6 , x \) 2l ! `5 j8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'as' 9 ne ! p ml \( 8cl'8 ! 0 0 rqqd \( ' m1t ei 6e 0 n p9 , c u' , 3 ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 45 145 145 145 145 145 145 \) 2di 2di 2di 2 mdi 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2 mdi 2di 2di 2di 2di 2de145 06 a86 \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) b8f \) 3 q , m3 q , 3 q , 3` v g9v g9 7 0tbxn 5 3l p 1eq \( 3t 2 7 q 7 9 1d9 1fpl pl `9 1eq , 7ez n lj 'i0l 9f q 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 7r ! 3 p 4k uf l \) j 'ax 'ax 'ax p x , '6 ! 45 4c \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \( yk k5 c 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'az \) 7z 2x ! ! k4 ! tz sl r'ax 'ayz q b 7s 34s c 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax `b h \? n ! \? h \( 8 'ax , \( `1 yj 3 ! v k ! 78 ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax \) 46 , x \) 2l ! ` x ! x 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'a 1f f3t 6z \) l \( 8cl'8 ! 0 m0 rqqd l \( 7kn bhj gizw u \( 102 x p9 \) 0g u 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 45 145 \) 2di 2 mdi 2di 2di 2u 75u 75u 75u 75di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2 mdi 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2de145 145 145 06 a86r g \) r g \) mr g \) b8f \) b8f \) b8e , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , v g9v g9p p 9v \? q30t \( n mb u34u pl pl `9 7 q 7'2tm 2tg q 1d9 7 9 7klj ' mi0mfq q , 3 qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' 7u ! 3 p 70 p ! o` ! j 'ax 'ax ' max p x \( , '6 ! 8w \) v ! 1 5 w ! h 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax tr \) \( \? qh \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'az \) 7 7z 2x ! ! u tz l sl r'ax 'ayz lr ! 7s 34s 2b 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \( 8 'ax 3jz \( z8 \? 8 k w q 78 ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' yu \) 2b xx \) 2l ! ' ! , x ' , 3 qax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 1f z5'1 z ex f3w2 7 9 p4u \) m6 l \( 8cl'8 ! 0 0 l \( 7ey n n bhj 9 ma` 32 x b \) 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 4 m5 145 145 14di 2di 2di 2di 2dm75u 75u 75u 62di 2di 2di 2di 2 mdi 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 25 145 145 145 145 145 14 m5 ! 86 a86 a86 \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8e , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , m3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 p p g9 4tb u3l ! d9 1d9 7 q 2 3t f9d `p , `p , m7ey n lj gk \? w 'i0l q qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 7u ! 3 p \? j 'ax 'ax 'ax \( 7 \( 5u , vc , 4 ! e \) 1 wa \? u 5 w ! h 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' ! 3 l yd 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 7z vu 2 mx ! ! u tt q 3 \( ! 2'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax `b 6k oo 5 x \( 'ax 2`z n m9 x7 6 k \) w ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' u \) 104 mr , a7 ` ` ! 'b 4m z bhj gk \? wwiz giz km `yd tm \) q ! 34 wm 8n mbxn 0t , l \( 8cl'8 ! 0 0 rqqd \( `uy mn n nrhj p ! `0 tojx ! 1 pkt 23 \( ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 45 145 145 145 14di 2di 2di 2di 2u 75u 75 mdi 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2de145 145 145 14 m5 145 145 145 14 a86 a86 a86 a86r g \) r g \) r g \) r f \) b8f \) 3 q , 3 q , m3 q , 3 q , b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b4q , 3 q , 3 p p g9 4t \( n 5 p 1eq \( mf0 7ez n n n biz \? wt 'i 4 v9fq , 0qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 7u ! 5at f ug 8 j 'ax 'ax 'ax 4 ` \) l \( 7 \( 5u , h vc , 4 \? , q1 1 145 w ! h 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 1 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 7z vu 2x ! ! u tz q sl r'ax 1 5 bb ! 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax `b ' 5 mx \( 'ax j 75 ! lp jpt78 kh9 ws ! 1s 9 ax 'ax ' max 'ax qq ep 9u \) ! 4m 2tm 2tm 2tm \) q 7 9 1fp m4 v bxlt 3 q 7 q 7 0t 2 \( n su \? 5 l \( 8 '8 ! 0 m0 rqqd \( nrhj bhj biz 3 fh \) ! 1 pj , 20m \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 45 145 145 22di 2di 2 mdi 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2 mdi 25 145 145 06 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86r g \) r g \) mr g \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8g \) r8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b4q , 3 q , 3` m9v \? \( om4 `9 7'2 9d 7ez n lj giz giz giz gk \? 1t 'i 4 pmf9f mq 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' end part 5 14
subject roman bmp 07 14 pwiseman salmon usd edu \( cliff \) reply pwiseman salmon usd edu \( cliff \) distribution usa organization university south dakota lines 958 part 7 14 mi 6ei 6ei 6ei 6ei 6ei 6ei 6ei4 '1t '1t '1t 'i 6ei 6ei 6ei0l pl pl pl pl pl 6ei 6e1t '1t 'w \? w z ghj bj nuy `p , 3t 9f9f0 7kn n n 7ex `p 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , ! l`x p ! 5 3 r \? l ax 'ax 'ax ' max 75 2j 4v , f , n \) p 5 1jz \( st ! h 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax oq \( k q9 r'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'au 75u 2j l , ! f` 4 q 4 \? 6'ax 'a ! 3 5 345 175u b 9l pl ! mq6 g9p , 3 \( f \) r f \) b8f \) b g \) a865 145 14 a86 a86 a86 a86 \) r80 oo 6q xe , 3 \? , ! l ! mt 8 \( `uz nriz x a` , lc \( 5u \? \( ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \) 7 j sc 2 hm9 9 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 6un f rb m5 2 \( \( 'it mej 9 \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'as qq , 3 q , 3 q , 1f9 l 5'1 \? giz bhj bhj kn n 7ey 7ey mn n n n n n n n n n bhj giz giz giz \? w \? 1t '1t 'i 6ei 4 pl pl pl pl pl pl pl pl pl pne pl pl pl pl pl pl pl pl pl pl pl pl pl pl pl pl pl pl mi 6e1t 'w \? w \? w \? w z bhj bhj kn bhj bhj bhj bhjn n n n' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a ! 6um l`x l ! 5 3 u ! 3 mb ! vq nr ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 75 2j v , f , n \) p 5 1jz 8r , e \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' oq q9 r'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'au 75u mt qh ` \( tt q , c , p 45 145 'ax 'as ep 3 5 3 \( 5 175u 7 v , 5g9p tq , p , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , b8g \) r186 e145 ! 86 \) mr g \) r g \) r f \) b8e , x3 w , ! g ! dk 7l 9 6q u3 \) ml cj7t ! \( l6 9d 7klj q q , 8 e \( ! \( 4r \) \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax ' ! w7 2 hm9 ' max 'ax 'ax \? `p , f \( 2 \( mej 9 \( ' max 'ax 'ax 'as' q 9f pl 9 l pl v8 pl 5'1t '1 \? giz ghj bhj bhj bhjn n n lj bhj bhj bhj bhj bhj giz gk \? w \? w '1t ' 4 pl pl pl pl pl pl pl , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 9f9f m9 l pl pl pl pl pnei 5'1 \? mw \? w \? wt '1z6ei 6'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax l`x em mr , 5 17r ! jb r ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 75 2j v , f , mn \) p 45 1jz 2w uc , `8 \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax oq l9 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'au 75u r ! l \? 45 145 'ax ! 5 175u \? , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , mb8f \) b g \) r g \) r g \) b8f \) \) 3 p 9 4t \( om 5 ` c' ! dk 7l 9 6q nj c b5 b`z vl 3jz l ! \( \? l gk \? , 3 qax x6 \( 6x 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax w7 2 hm 4 `5 mb 'ax 'ax 'ax u 3b \) t4 ` \) l \( \? \( \? mej ' q 9f pnei 5'1t \? \? w \? w \? wt '1t '1t '1 ' m1t \? \? w \? w z giz giz bhj bhj bhj biz giz gk \? w \? 1t 'w \? w \? mw \? w \? 1t 'i 4 v9fq , 3 q , 3 , 3 q , 3 q , 3 qq , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 , 3 qq , 3 q , 3 q q , 3' q , , 3 q , 0q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3' q , 1f9f8 pl 9f q , 3 q 9f9f9f9f q , 0q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 qq , 3 q , 3 9f9f9f 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' l ` em 5 c r mk \) 75 b 0 nax 'ax 'ax ' max 75 2j \? 2 , e l 45 jz , \) \( 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax n1 oq l9 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'au 75u 7p2 yr \) l ` 45 18 'ax q , 7 9 , 3 q , b8f \) b8f \) mb8f \) \) r g \) b8f \) b8f \) 3 \( f \) b8g \) r f \) b8f \) 3 q , 3` 2 b wm n , c' ! dk ql goo e 2`z , , cjz ! \( hl bn n nrhj gk \? , 8 ' z \) 25 34 \( ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'p g7 2 hm 4 `5 'ax 'ax 'ax u 76 \) t4 ` \) l zq z \( vc 0 \? w z giz giz bhj bhj giz \? w '1t '1t 'w \? w \? w \? w \? w \? w \? w \? w \? w \? giz gk \? wt 'i 6ei 6ei0l pl 9f9f9l3 q qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 3 qq , 3 q q , 3 mq qq q , 3 q , 3 qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3' q 9f pl pl max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax l ` p ! 5 \) 75 mb 0 \( ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 75 ! 367 2 , l 45 jz , mc 4s \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' 1 ! l lk 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'au 75u 7z yr 2 l , , 7 9 j \) b8f \) b g \) \) r g \) r g \) r186 a86r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r8f \) b8e , 3 q , m3 q , p b u34u \( ! n m9 q 4 2 4 9f j vm75 2`z , cjz ! \( n n lj bizwt e 0q 17 3 \( 6 ! \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'p , ! g7 2 05 ' max 'ax 'ax \) v1 z \( ! v j giz giz bhj giz biz gk \? w '1t '1t ei 6ei 6ei '1t ' mi 6ei 6ei 4 pl pl z6ei 4 v9fq , 3 q q , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as q mq , 3 q q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'as qq , 1f9f8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax l`x p ! 5 \) 75 b 0 uax 'ax 'ax 'ax 75p 3a ! hp l 46 , jz , c 4 x 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \( 2k \( \( k lk r'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'au 75u 7z vr \( tt q se1 k 4e \) yo 7 l \) r1 \) r g \) r8f \) b8f \) b4q , b8f \) b g \) r d6 a86 a86 a86 lg \) r f \) b8f \) b8e , 3 qgq 4t \( n , e 8 7l m2 9f vm75 2`z , , cjz l ! ! 8 bli 6ei4 \? \? gizwt ei 4 `` \) 7s 17 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'p , 05 mh qh yl \( 'ax 'ax 'ax gi c ! z \( ! j 9 9 bhj giz gk \? w '1t '1t ei 6e pl q , 3 q , 3 q , 0q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 8 'as q , 3 qax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as qq , 1f 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , ` c x 5 \) 75 \( ax 'ax 'ax ' max 75p i1 w l , c , p e \( 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \( ! 4 q 'l lk 2'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'au 75u 7z vr 2 \( 2d q se1 p , c` \) r d6 , b \? j \) r g \) b8e , 3 q , 3 q , m3 \( e , 3 q , 3 r \) b8f \) r g \) a86 a86 lg \) r g \) b g \) b8f \) b4q , 3` p wc , 8 k \( 9f j vm75 2`z , l 3j7t l ! q 8 pne1t 'w \? 1 \? p em r 34s \) n ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'p , k , dk 5 h qd b \( 'ax 'ax 'ax z \( j mke 9 \? w '1t ei 4 v9f m9l3 q q , 3 qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as qq , 3 q , 2' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aum 4m 5 ! 3` \) 75 mh ' ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 75v 8 ! ' l 4 , ! c e \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' h v'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'au 75u 7z vu 2 ` \( 2d q se1 xm \? 2 \? e \( \) \) , b yo \) r8f \) 3 q , 3 q , 3 p p p 3 r \) b g \) r186 a86r g \) r g \) r g \) mr8f \) b8e , 3 r \) b8e , , 9 \( q j vm75 2`z ml cj7t , b`z 'q q tz l 'l giz `p 9 ! 2b mr 34s 04 fy lj giz 6e v9fq 9f pne1t '1 \? 1t 'wt ' mwt 'i0l v , \) c , \) h 'l \( , 3 pnei4 2a \( 3k u \( l \? mwt 'i0l 9l3 , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 75u \) 75u 25 a04 mr 5 17r ! 1 \) 75 \( ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 7 , l 45 1 m' 8 4 , c , ! h 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax yb k 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'au 75u 7z vu x 2j q ! d9 f ! ! \( \) b 6m yl ! 06 a86 lf \) b4q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , b8f \) b8f \) mb8f \) r g \) r186 a86r g \) b8f \) b8f \) b4q , p pwu r , 8 9 \( q \( qq j cj7t , b`z 'q q 2j q 'q , `p , 1fpl 34u 7u 345 \) 34 `9 1eq \( f9d f9d m7ey `p 9f0 7ey `yf9f3t tm , \) c , \) \? duc 9 \( ql \( \? w \? wwiz bhjn c \( l ! \( '1z4 v , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' ` 75u \) 75u 25 17r ! 1 \) 'ax 'ax ' max 7 op l y2 , 8w ! j9 , c \) 2 , ! h 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax h q \? b hk 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 75u 7z vu x 2j q l mk 0p \( q 0iv \) a86r g \) b8f \) mb8f \) b8f \) b8g \) r8f \) r8f \) b8f \) b8f \) r g \) b8f \) r g \) r8f \) b8f \) b4q , v \? r 18 x 9f9f j 3j7t , 'q q rlk 34u mbs3 q6 g9v g 3 \( h \) 7 mq 7 9v g p gq 7 q 4tbxom wm v wm u3l pl ! 34 p , \) ic \) \? dui ive ! e 4 \( , \( `p , `p \) 1 \( l o6 e \( 4 '1z4 9l0qax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a ` 75u \) 75u 27 , 17r ! 1 \) \) ax 'ax 'ax 'ax l \) r \? ! ! j9 , mc \( r , c \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' \( vw 4 j , '4 q \? b h 3 'ax 'ax 7e 75u 7z vu 2 keh x 2j q 2j q dm \( r g9v g ee mk \) 45 ! 86 lg \) r8f \) r g \) b8f \) b g \) r g \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , m3 \( f \) 3 q , 3 q , 3 r , mx \? w j vm75 3j7t , l `z 'q q 61d9 tp tq , 3 q , 3 q , 3 ` \) 7 mu 3 \( h \) , 3 q , 3 r \) b8f \) b8f \) b4q , 3 r \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b4q , m3` g9 7 q 4t , 3tc \) \? , \) vlk n \( , \( 6n q 2 mtm 2tm 2tm \( v 76 f ! p \( l 'iya ! q ! v , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a `x 75u \) 75u 25 mr 17r ! 1 \) 'ax 'ax 'ax b 7p l 45 1 \( ! j9 , \( \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aq \( \) v 4 j , '4 ql2 q ei4 \? \? wwhj f5 75u 7z vu 2 keh x 2d q \) 2j q 36 2ud ` g9v g e mp 7 l q ! 86r f \) b8f \) r g \) r8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) mb8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b4q , 3 q , 3 p p 3 q , 3 \( 0w , c , p 7 q 3j7t , ' q 0m g \) b8e , m3 q , 3 p 9v g , 34r , g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) mr g \) r d6 a86 lg \) r f \) b8f \) b8f \) b4q , 3tc f x0 , v \) id9 nn , \( 9 1d9 7 q 2tm \( v 76 f 'iya ! mo 'y ' 0v q 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' ` 75u \) 75u 25 17u \( 4p jg , 'ax 'ax ' max 7 7p 45 1 '6 sg ! j9 , \( \( 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aq \( \) , q i4 \? \? bj 7 9f3t 5 \) 7z vu 2 \( 2d 2j l `9 0d \) 6t l q yd 06 lg \) r8f \) b8f \) mb8e , 3 q , 3 p 9v g9p 9p p 3 q , b8f \) b4q , 3 q , 3 q , 3` 3 q , 3 \( 3u b , 4q , 3 q cj7t l \( q m2j ! dk 0p 2f , 5 14 \) r g \) r f \) b8f \) 6 yu \) 25 , dle \) mb g \) r g \) a86 \) r g \) r186 a86 a86 \) r g \) r g \) r8f \) b8f \) 3tc f x0 , c , v \) hm9 nn , 2tm \( bf mp 'iya ! \? j 6a \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a ` 75u \) 75u \( ya ! 17r 4 \( 24 \) 'ax 'ax 'ax 7hl p 45 ! j9 , 3t \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' maq \( tr \( tr l \( f3t tm \) q 5 b ! yr 2 \) ltt , ! u 2j l p 9 sq \) 75u e 23 mc h6 \) r8f \) b4q , 3 p 3 q , p g9 7 q 5g v g9 7 q 5g9p , 3 q , 3 q , m3 \( e , 3 q , 3 q , 3 r \) 16 8co g \) c9 , ml 3jz , q 2j ! dk , \( 145 06 a86 \) r f \) p yu \) \) 7u , 4 f p e d6 \) r d6 a86 a86 a86 e145 145 145 ! 86 a86 a86r g \) b8f \) 3tc f x0 tc , v \) hm9 nn , `p m7ey nrhj , ! 'iya ! \? mej e o1 \( ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a ` 75u \) 75u m` \( tq ! 17u 7r ! , 3 ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 75v l 5 1 '6c ! j9 3 , `i \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aq \( q mh 3 \? bj 7 9 \) q 1d9l b ! yr 2x 9 va k 'q 06 u h jd \) mj ! ia , 3` \( om4 p4u 8n u34u 3 wm u3 m4u 34u 3 v bs3 9p , 3 q , b8f \) b8f \) b g \) 289 q 1 c9 , cjz 'q \? 2 id9 kt \( 2de14 m5 06 a86 \) 17r , 6 ! p 145 145 145 ! 86 a86 m5 145 145 14 a86 a86 \) r f \) b8e , giz \) \? v \) id9 nn c \? 1t '1t 'i 6ei , ! h q zs 'iya ! mo \? mej e o1 \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' ` '5u \) 75u 24e \) ! os 17u 7r \( 'ax 'ax ' max 75p l 5'u \( 8 63 , `i \( 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aq ! zl \( \( 7 9 3w2tm \) q 5 4 ! yu 2x 9 6l k sl 7 9 r ! nrhj bhj km f9d tg 9l mb 4 3 q , b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b9 , xw ! j \( x 5145 1 c9 , , nl zdk se m2 id9 j , \( 2di 2di 2di 2di , \) 75u \) 4m r 17r 3 \( mnp \) 2 mdi 2di 2di \) 45 14di 25 145 145 145 145 ! 86r g \) q32 giz 2 hm , \) \? , \) vlk n \( c 6n pl pl pmf9f 6um kb \) ! 2' ya ! j e o1 \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a ! p au \) 75u 24e \) 3c` qs 17r 7u ` ` \) 'ax 'ax 'ax 75 ci1 \) o0 l \) r \? ! hr , 4 , di \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' maq , ! ad \( \( km `p 9f3t b ! r 2 ! ! o7 ! qh p sl 3l h , \( , 8i , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 1 z bhj bhjn n n l f3w2 1fp m4 v g zf ! z , , , c dl xw \) 2di \) fm , `1 mdk 2j3 id9 kt \( 2u 75u 75u 75u 75 f j \) 8 3 \( 6 75u 75u 75u 75u9 2de145 145 145 145 145 ! 86 mr8f \) 3 p 9 6 giz 2 id 4 duc , ! e 4 \( l \( 6k mq , 3 q , 1f9l3 x \( \? ! 2 0 \? n o6 j e o1 ! \( ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a `p au \) 75u 24e \) 75u 4u 7u 2` n , 'ax 'ax 'ax 75 8 ! 1 m' lg y0 4 , \? 0i 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 1 1 l8 8i 1 nq 2v 7 , f3t 3w2 mtm b ! 1 r ! \( r 2 dn 23 5 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' 9 l pne bhjn `yd 2 1fp4u z , ' 9 2 \( 6k l \( u 2u 5 c9 , `1 mdk 2j3 id9 kt 75u4 \) m0d \) 0d \) 0d \) f , dt , bu 75u 75u 75u 75di 2de14 m5 ! 86 a86 \) r g \) b8f \) b4q , v \? ez g7 oj q9 ! e jsl l \( , 3 q , 3 q , 8 \? 5 \( p b j e o1 ! \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' `p au \) 75u \) 26 4r 7u h ax 'ax 'ax ' max 75 , , jz , 3 8 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 1 \( , c ! \( col 61 7 , f9d 3t 3t 5 7 ! 1 r \) ! \( go r sl \? \) w \( , 0qax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 z7 \? km `yd tg mz , 7 ! k , \) c9 \( mdk 2j3 yj9 3e id 0 0d \) 0d g9v g9v g9v ltd 345 \) 75u 75u a86r g \) r8f \) b8f \) 3 q , v \? q32 ex oj l ok 6 e \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 75 3 ` \) \( n o6 j 9 \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as x 75u \) 75u 6'0 4r \) 7u 2` ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 75 3a ! hp l 8 ! jz c f , , 3 vh 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' \( 1 \( , c ! c l r 7 , f9f9f3t 3t 5 7ha1 l ` \( 2j l 9 6fb , l 2e 6 ! uj nl \) c \( m7 f ` ! ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as q , 3' m9 g ! r p9 cl sq9 , c9 , cjz ' \( nlk 2j3 yj9 9b , \( p g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v 2 ` mc 28 \) 345 \) 0d \) 0d 5u 75di \) 45 ! 86r f \) b8e , 3` 9v g9 4t 5 pl ! 1h , z l \) h ' qd \( l 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax b n jj ` \) 4xn tq ! j \( ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aw5u `k yz mt 4 2h h \) `j \) 7u ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 75 0 2j`e 3a ! hp 8 , , jz c f , , c dm 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'avs \( 1 , c ! c k cl \? 7ey `p , `yf9 7ha1 \( l q ' hx 9 n h9 75 34 \) p a` k `e \) 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'as' q , 1f9 ne1 75u 7 lx 2n \) 6 \( u 34r` \) m`0 \) ' \( nl yj 2we \) c , c \( \) g9v mg9v g9v g9v hrb \? , c , \) 0d \) 0m75u 75u9 \) 45 ! \) mb8e , 3 q , 3 \? wm4 `9 \( f0 , \? r 7 xc '8 ! \( sq 7e mh qh \( 'ax 'ax 'ax p 9 \? b \( 2 \? 4xn \( 1 ! mo ' mej o1 \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' fi `k yz h \) ax 'ax 'ax ' max 75 2j \( p , , jz ! c 2 , , c dm 8 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aw6 \) 1 \( , c ! c mk cl 2 \( ! a` g , `p , 7ha1 l ! c ! \( e v 6k h sqk 1d hi idk sl \( h 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \( fy 6 \? 28 ! lq 8 3jz ' \( oq yj j 9b , c 75u 75u 75u \? b \? 345 75u 75u 75di \) 45 ! \) r8e , 3 \? \( oml ! d9 \( f0 7kn mr 7 \( ! 0 'l `5 h rq \( 'ax 'ax 'ax p 9 \? b j ! \? \( xn \( 1 ! mej 9 6a \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'azf giz `k yz \) `j bu 2` mgf 'ax 'ax 'ax 75 2j p \( p ' , , jz ! ! hp mc 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a gi 7 eup l4 m5 \) 0 p ! 9x ! 4gb 9 'll uz e b ! 1 vf 39 xm 1w ! \( u u 'l l9 tm 2di sl sl \( b \( b qk \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3' mq , 0qq 7 9 6 ! 67 l 28 ! f ! 14 3jz ' \( `z 'q 2f 8p ! c \? , u 752 'a \) r 9 ! p ' ! \( 0 ! `k \) 6x r 34u 34u 75u 75u ! 86r f \) q32 5 p 7 qtm 2 nwk \? r xc \( ! 0 \( ' max 'ax 'ax e , 2 4xn \( 1 ! o7 xb \( ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'azf giz ` eu `k mt ap , ` ` \) j \( 4r 'ax 'ax 'ax 75 2j ! np \( pw m' , jz \? 4 ! o3 vh 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'a gp ys z \? ps w xk ! ! \( bq \? ei k , st sl b ! 1 3 zd \) , ! 0 \) tx l l9 2g 9 'q sqk rl9 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \) f u8 9 lz 28 ! f ! 14 3j7t jz , b vbf ` 4e , , 5 \) 2 ' 0t 0t 0w x 'a \) r g \) x 2 \? \) ! \) 75u , 3` g mq 4t \( om4 `9 1eqtm \( f0 , 7klj \? r xc \( ! `5 'ax 'ax 'ax \? b , 2 4xn \( 1 ! \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' map x ! yz ` eu , ! n ` \) j \( 4r \? 4 \) ax 'ax 'ax ' max 75 2j ! np 5p ! , ' ! 8 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a ngp p , v , , l bql pi u , u 4 ! zs \) 750 , ! 0 q 2j l 0 v q , l 2w 2gt 0i rlk , `p x 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a `k 0 47 gl \? 'qk 1j ! f ! 14 , cj7t , b vbf , q b8f \) x x 0t 0t 0t \) 'a \) r \? 0t 'ax 'n b \) 75u p , b u34 pl ! d9 nrizwt e v \( ! 'ax 'ax 'ax np b j` mu , 2m \( 1 ! o7 mei ' \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ! ! eu 6 e \) 75u \) , ep mn l 4r \? 4 \) \( ! ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 75 2j , 8 ! 1 6 , \( pi \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a ngp p `p , vl bq wy 6ei \( \( 4 \) 750 , c m0 8i 61 2j v l p45 q , l rl9 hi \( p e` , hm , `p , \( r , ! 8 ! `8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ap ! `0 ! 1 w7 \( n qk qd9 1j ! , ml 3j7t l 2f q bxn x x 0w x 'a \) x 0t 2 \? ax 'n \( 4 \) 75u 4 ! 3` 2tg qtm \( 9d `uz bizw ' , 8 ' \( ! l r'ax ' max 'ax 'ax np b ju \? \( xm x ! ! mei ' qh \( \( ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ! `0 24e \) 75u \) 39 p l br \? 4 \) \( pi 'ax 'ax 'ax \? 5 2j ! 1 m' 5 e` 6 ` 4 n 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'a giz \? 63q bq wy 6ei \( 6 \( ! \) ! ' h , q rui v q , lk tic 45' , e` , c \( r , ! 8w ! `8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ! u 6 \? mk \( di 2 8 ! z ` , \? , j3 zs j ` , ! 2 \) x 0w w 'ax2 0t ca ! 75u 5z n lj bhj gk \? 1t e pl r , c \( \( b6 `p , ` z ! mm r'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax np b 02 , \( ! , ya mo \( \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' 24e \) 3 `l 7u \? 4 hst 'ax 'az f 3 5 2j`e 0g8 u' 4 \? 5 y2 , c c`p , `x m6 r'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a iz giz sq bql \? n h ! f` sq 'az \( 46 ! ! \) , \( \( zl v h qd 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax '` js 1 ! mid mk oh 'ax 'ax 'ax `z j3 j ` , ! 1 x 0t 0t 0w \) 'ax2 0t 0w ! 1 75u 4 \? w \? 1t ei0l 9l0qax ' c \( \( ` \( ` z ! 0 \) 260 'ax 'ax np 5 6p j m5 c ! 0 p ! wx ya ! o6 'y \( \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 25 2 ` \( 7u \? \( 0 'ax 'az f 3 5 0g8 ! 1' ! 1 5 1 m8 , pwe c`p au f '' 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? mz z gl \( b 6ei vclk , 7t \? 'l 'az \) p `7 h mz 514 e yd \? v 6ei 6n 61d 8 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax ' 6` ah \? n \( b h 'ax 'ax 'ax \? n jp2 \? m0 v zd9 \) 1 , 'x gw 0t 0t \) 'a \) pt 0t z \? ! 1 6 ! 75u 4q , 3 q , 3 q qax 'ax 'ax 'u 34 \( jjjjj \( ` 3 um \( ! 0 vy ' ! ue9 'ax j5 02 \( \? ! 4j \( l 'it 5 6b \( b 'o \( ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ` br , 7u \? \( gp , 'ax 'az f ys 0g8 ! 1 m' 8 1jpt78 ! 1 x ! 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax u`0 l h px yh ahl q wy 6g 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'aq1 `0 hz 51 1 , ! l ! 6ej mo v o5ih pm 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' c8 ! sl \? k \( b 'ax ' max 'ax \? n 0 v 3e 0i \) 1 , 'ax ' max 'a x7 \? 7u 2 \? w 0w \) x ! 6x 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'u 34r ` q1 \( 8c \( ! mm vy 'ax 'ax \? j5 02 n ! 4j \( ml \? b , q \( xb \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , n ! 0 \? \( gp , 'ax 'az f ys , 8 ! 1jpt78 u 5 145 76 ` e n 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax , p \? ! 68 1s \( ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aq3` '6 g 41 , xr 3 m9 2n l ! \? ei 6ei 6n \( \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' ! p ! z q 6f \( b 'ax 'ax 'ax \? n u bl cjc 6g se 0p 8s , 7ax 'ax 'ax 'aq \? u \? 7u q 7 6 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'u 3 \( \? bj \( j \( ` 11 \( 8ah \( ! 0 vy 'ax 'ax e , ` m5 \( l 1 \( h sl 8ah xa 0x 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ap ' \) x k \( \( 5 , 7r j , 'ax 'az fy \) 3a ' 8 ! 1jpt78 ! ms , , ! ! xk 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? mz , \( b qk ! 6 u 1s \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 76 g 41 , x20p 2v , ql 6ei 6n h \( 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'o ! n 6kv 6ejq ! 'ax 'ax 'ax \? n u b ml cjc 6g se 0p ax 'ax 'ax 'a 7u \? gq \? u \? 7u \? 6 175u 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'u 34 mu , c4 \( ` \( ` sz \) \( qh \( ! 0 w g9 ! u 'ax 'ax e 6 \) z4jn sp1 q \( \( c ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ap ' \) yu \) ! 6p \( r 7 mu \( 45u \? 4s 17u , 7u 'ax g w \) 3 , m' l 8 ! 1jpt78 1 \) 4 f gg ! a` 9 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax n chz , \? , x 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 76 g k \? 51 1 , \) 2 x 'o \? ei 6k 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax , ! v o5i l6 , ' max 'ax \? n cjc 6v se 3 \) 'ax ' max 'a 7u \? gq 7 \? 7u \? 75u 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'u 34u 34u , cj \( j su 2 \( ! 0 mb ! 2b5u e 24e ` \) z4jn p1 yd mk ! p l yh \( 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' map \) yu \) ! , c4r 7u \( 45u \? 4s 17u , 7u k` 0 75u 'a 0 \) 0w l \? ! \) z \) h ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax xn 3l chz , ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 76 `7 h \? 51 p \) 2 h k ' fl q ui 6f bk 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax v mo v v 6k , 'ax 'ax \? n cjc 7 l zdk 3e ! 'ax 'ax 'aq 7 q 7 q 7 1 \? u 1 , 3o' e j \) \( 2'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a c \( r , msu \? ! \( ! 0 \( e eu 75u \) 25a \) oj1 z4j \? ! p \) 3q l x 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax , c \( u 7u \( 45u \? 4s 17u , 7u ` g 2 9 8 \) 0 4 \? x3 4 ! \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax n 3l , 'h mz ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a `x 76 h \? 51 p y2 h 9 rll q9 b \? ei 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax ! 6z \) 75u v v 6k , 'ax 'ax 'ax ml 4 l2 p3 zdk 3e 0p 8p ! 'ax 'ax 'ay 7 7u \? 7u \? 47 \? r 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'a \? ! x fq x ! 0 0 p fi u `e \) 25a \) oj1 \) lm9 af ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a ! 34u 7 mu , 45u \? 4s 17u , 7u ` cz h 9 6 ! 8 \) 0 9s 45 1jpt78 , x3 \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax ! p , c \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'a ! u 76 `0 h \? e` \? p' b \( b bq l2 \) 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ! \) o5i 6ej ' max 'ax l 0 l2 p3 zdk 58 c \) 'ax ' max 7 \? 7u \? 7u \? \( 2 p k 1 n g 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a 0 \? ! x e \? nk ! n \) z k4 kt 5u , ` ` \) oj1 z4 9 \) lm m9 \) dm \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a ! em 34u \? 45 17u , 7u 2` cz h 8 mx 0 4 9s 8 , , \) w p 4 x 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \) , ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a ! u 76 `0 h \? 4c \( r x20p s9 r pm , 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ! p 34 \? k ql 6b , ax 'ax 'ax 0 p3 zdk 08 c 'ax 'ax ' 7u \? 7u q \? u 1 \( 1v p , q ed ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \( m5u \? h k9 , 9 k h0 ! v n` mh \) ok , e ' ! 9 \) lm9 bdm \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax , v 77` em , c4u \? 45 17u 7u , b` j 8 6 3a ! hp 9s 45 jpv \? w \) w p 4 x 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax '4 mp ls ! 6 ! c \? , ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 76 `0 h 1 \( 8r x20p \? b' x 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax x2 n fx `lc \( r ahl \( 3l x 'ax 'ax f `6 b`z \? m0 p3 zdk 08 c \) 'ax 'ax ' 1 \? gy \? gy 7 qv k ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax ` \? h k 6ni \? \? rqqd q p k i7 '6 ! ! \) ok , e ' \) lm9 bdm m9 \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ` 7 \? 45 17u 7u , ! 6 0j um 6 ! 1p \) 2 , 45 j z \? x 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax nk \) \? \) q ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 76 `7 h , h , 2f x20p hd , 3 k 1a \? b' \? awq 3 , ! 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ap e \) 27 p \) max 'ax c9 , p3 zdk 5 , c 'ax ' max \? u x h ! 8 \? ! , 3 q 1 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax `p \? k 6ni \? mb rq md q 9 i7 086 ko p ! j5 ok , e ' \) lm m9 bdm m9 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 9 , ! , c4u 7u , \( 5u \? \( 5 17u 7u nm 6u 4 um um 6 f , 45 j z \? ! 8 e \( 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 0s nk \? , ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 76 g `7 hg \) 4 ! ' x20p wq \? 'l 'y l rl 3 , ! 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax e \) 24e \) 24e \) 4o \( ui m4 , ax 'ax 'ax l p3 zdk 5 , 'ax 'ax \? 0h 8 ! ! `0 ! , 1 \) 1 0 dmn \? x ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax , m5u \? h k9 6ni \? rq nd \? 086 ko ! , ! j \) oj1 ' \) lm9 bdm m9 c \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax , ! r ` \( u 7u , \( 5u \? \( 5 17r 7u 2` n n ! ! okz 4v f f , n \) 46 , jz \? ! x 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax h ! \( 2 r c 4 ! h 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax g ! `7 h mh9 wl \( np rl9 r \) ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max \? 9e 0t e \) 24e \) 27 \( m4 3 \( 2 32m , nax 'ax \? , b p3 zd9 , \( 'ax 'ay b0 8 0 mt 086 \) 9 ! 2tm \? x 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax \? h k 6ni \? qh ndk \? 0t , ` \) ' vmk \) g f \) mk mc \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \) 2 \) z , ! r 6p \( r 7 mu , 4r \? \( 5 17r 7u 3 \( d9 n n , cz uh v mn \) 8 , \? y0 u , c \( p x 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max y' ! ! \( 2 \? \? , q145 w ! h 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max ! `7 hh8 , c 8i 3 wl ! q9 ! x 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? 9 \) `k \) 27 fx r 5 tr mtx 'ax 1 3j7t , p3 yj9 , ` uax 'ax ' max h ! 0t 4e \) \) 9 ! 2p \) \? r 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 6p \( \? h k 6ni \? q 'ay 0t `k \? \( r , \( oj1 ' vmk m9 ! p \) g f jl `p , ! ! 04 \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 4 xj eup , ! \) 4u , 34r \? 4r 3 \( u 34u ` \( 'ax ' v 2 \? 44 ! ! , , c \) x ! `8 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aq , 3' , x ql \? g ol pmc , , u ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax h8 , c 8i 3 \? 'qk 3l \( van dle p vo ! ! p 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \) ` ! 4e \) 24e `lc \( u 5 3t 'ax , cj7t j3 yj9 c uax 'ax ' 0j fyn hk 0t 4e \) 2' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' ny ! 04 2n \? ! k 6 z q \? 2'ax 'ax \( u , c k4 \) \) 66 \) md9 af \) 75u 75u 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax ! \( iv g9v ! \) 4u 34u 3 \( u , c4u 34u 0 u 3 \( 'a g 5 p v ! e` , 4 c \( , 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' r h \( ! l pmc , ! 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax mh , c r0i 3 e 0i h 9 sl 63q \? \? lan b70 p \? 9 max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ! `0 kt \( r , im tr 3t ax 75 2`z ' j3 yj9 3t 58 ! c \? uax 'ax ! cx 0t 4e 0 fx u 34 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax ' ny ! 2b 2n ! x 9 6 \? q 2f'ax ' gg5u , ` r 3 \( \( \) 0t \) 24e \) 24e \) 25a \) 27 \( ! 04 \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ! ge 6s cv d' ! qv h0 ! ! f ptm 2vx u 34u 3 \( r , 'ay 5 0 tzx p v c`p mn \( 6c \( r , 8 0 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max ' r h \( `86 ! 6q o5i l pmc , q1 5 145 148 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max , c r0i ke 0i h 9 sl sqk 'l ' 4 mr , b70 p \) 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' end part 7 14
subject roman bmp 06 14 pwiseman salmon usd edu \( cliff \) reply pwiseman salmon usd edu \( cliff \) distribution usa organization university south dakota lines 958 part 6 14 \) 75u 7r ! f `7 ug \) v0 yz w5 'z 'ax 'ax ' max \( 7 \( 5u , h , , 4 \? 8 'u 6 , ! h 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a mh 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 7z v u 2x ! ! q tz q sl r'ax 'a ! 1 bb ! 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a \( h l fgo 5 x \( 'ax j 75 z , x \? jpv \? p k mh9 ws ! xq ax 'as' 9 l i4 z bj p 9u \) \) v6 3 v bxn bxn bxn bxlt , 7 0t 0t 0t 0tbxn wm4 psu \? h , m5 \( 8ah \( ! 0 qh , 0l \( '1t 'w \? w \? w 3 f n`0 \) ! 1 x , 0m \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' 9f8 v , 3 qq , 3 9f8 9l0q , 3 q , 3 q , 3' q 9f9 l pl pmf pl pl 9l3 q qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 4 m5 22di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2 mdi 2di 2di 2di 2di 25 145 145 145 145 14 a86 a86 lg \) r g \) r g \) mr g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8g \) r g \) r g \) b8f \) mb8f \) b8f \) b8f \) 3 q , 3 p 9 4t \( om u3l ! d9 3t f0 , 7kn bhj giz \? mw '1t '1t ei 4 v q , 0q , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'az \) 75u 7u ! 3 p le \) 3 yz 'z \( ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 75 1l 45u , mn h 2 3 , 4 \? 45 4 ! ! q , 0q , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' us 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a 7z vu 2 mx ! ! 2j l sl r'ax 'aq1 3 \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a ` 3l fgo 5 \( 8 'ax j 7h j3 yj , xh \? 8 5vz z \? ! ws 4w ! hq jn 7ex 8x \) 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t 2 bxn wm u34u 3 m4 p 1eq 9d ` u5 \( 1 ! h \( ! 0 eh yl \( pne mi 6e1t '1t 3 n`0 \) ! 1 c 3 \( ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q mq 8 i4 'wwiz bhj bhj gk \? w \? 1t '1 \? w \? w '1t '1t ' m1t '1t 'w \? w \? 1t 'i 6e1t '1z6e1t ei 6e v9fq , 3 , 3 q , 8 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2 mdi 2di 2di 2di 2di 2de145 145 145 145 145 145 14 a86 a86 \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) mb8f \) b g \) r8f \) b g \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8e , 3 p v 3l `9 \( f0 , 7ez nriz giz gk \? w \? wt '1z4 9f q , 3 q , 0qax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 7r ! 3 \) 3 wg \) yu \) 3a nax 'ax 'as q , 3 75 al 45u , mn h 2 8r , 4 \? 45 \) y0 ! c c 'w \? w \? wt 'i 6e pmfq , 0qax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax k us 8 \? b l 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'a ! sz \) 7z vu 2x ! l \) 2j l \? sl 'ax 'aq1 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a ` p bl fgo 5 \( 8 'ax h nxy 4 \? ! c \( 4s 4w ! hq bj 7 , 2tm \) q \( f e 7 q 7 q 7 0t \( om 5 p ml p 1d9 1eq \( 9f9`p 7klj gk \? su ` u5 ql mm uj \( r' , 1f z6ei 5'1t j3 n`0 ! \) li \) q 9 w ! \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax qq , 1f z5'w z bj 7 9f9f9f9d 2tm \( 9f9`p , 7ez giz giz giz giz giz giz ghj bhj gk \? w \? gizwt ' mi 4 v9f9l3 q 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 45 145 145 145 145 22 mdi 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 25 145 145 145 145 145 06 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 lg \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) mr g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r f \) b8f \) 3 q , 3 q , 3` p g m9v \? q 4t \( n u34 p 1eq 9d 7klj bhj giz gk \? w \? w \? wt 'i0l m9l3 , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' 7r \) jb 0 r q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 , 3 75 3bx ! 45u , mn h 2 8r , 4 , \) p8 ! i2 , c n n n n n n n bizwt e v q 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax k 8m l \? b l 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a ! sz \) 7z vu 2x ! \? , b mk r sl 'ax 'az \) 3 \( 5 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as bl fgo 5 \( 8 'ax dc nxy 74 \? c 3k mx 8 4w ! hq `yd 2 7 9 ! 3 v g m9v \? q 4tb wm4 p 1eq \( 9d 7ey n n nrhj bhj gk \? 1z4 su ` u m5 ol kh oit uj \( r'ax qq 8 pnei 6 \? i9 mgm \( n`0 ! \) li 5 3 \? , q \? , e \( 't q , 3 q , 3' q q , 8 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3' q , 3 q , 3 q 8 v9f9f q , 3 q 9f m9 l pl nei4 'w z bj 7ex f9d tg 9 1fpl p ml pl `9 1d9 7 qtm 2tct 3t 9f9f0 , 7ey n n n n biz giz ghj bhj giz gizw '1z6e v9fq , 3 , 3' q , 3 , 3 q , 3 'ax 'ax q , 8 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 4 m5 145 145 145 145 145 22di 2di 2de145 145 145 145 145 145 14 m5 145 145 ! 86 a86 a86 \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r8f \) b8f \) mb8f \) b8g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) b8f \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) mr8f \) b8f \) b8e , 3 q , 3` g9v gq 4t 2 u3l `9 \( mn n nrhj \? w '1z4 9f q , 0q , 3 qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a 7u \? \) , mb ! r q , 3 q , 3 ! 45u , mk 2 8r , 4 746 , \) p8 ! i2 , c` , `p , `p , `p , `p 9l0q , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' ! u t4 \( ' l r l 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a ! sz \) 7z \( 0r 2 g q 2 k sq 'ax 'au \? 35t 345 bb ! 2'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax \) bl 5 \( 8 'ax m5 xy 74 \? c 2 x 8 e 9l 8n 0tq 7 p p 5u \) u34u p 7 qtm \( f0 nrizw \? 1t ei0l \? zm u5 2 ! ! \? 9 uj \( 'ax q , 1f9 l 6 s4 5 8w q \) , m9 l pl l pl z6ei 6ei 6ei 6ei 6ei4 e1t \? \? ghj kn bhj bhj ghj bj nuy 7kn 7ey n n n n n n 7 , `yd \) q 1fpl wmbxn bxn 0t 0t 0t 2 b wm 5 34 wm4u pl `9 1d9 7 q 7'2 9f9`p 7ey n n n n bizwt , 3 q , 3 q , 3' q 9f , 3 q , 3' q q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 45 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 14 m5 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 ! 86 a86 \) r g \) r f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) mb8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8e , 3 q , b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b g \) r g \) mr g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) 3 q , 3 p 9v \? 2 5 p 1eq \( 3t f9f9 7ey 7klj gizw \? wt e v q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a `45u 7u \? \? , ` \) h pl 6ei 6ei4 75 ! 45u , qk 2 8r , 4 7 6`w \) y0 ! c , ! , `p 7kn bizw e v q q , 3 qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a ! , s8 il 'ax 'ax ' max 'a ! \) 7z \( 0r 2 \) ltt q k 'q 'ax 'au n 345 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aw6 83n 5 \( 8 'ax d5 xy 745 jr ! c 2 x , ! p 5 mbs3 mq6 g p , 3 q , \) 0 ! ` 5 p 1eq 9d 7ez nriz mwt '1t '1t 'i 6e v , 3 'ax 'ax 'su \? zm u5 2 9 \? ni \? 9 6a f mm \( 'ax 'as qq 9f pn 5 s4 b 5 5 \) x 6ei 6ei 6ei 5'1t '1t '1t '1t '1t \? \? w z giz bhjn n n n n `p 9f9d 3t 2tm 2 7 9 1d9 pl 3l pl ! d9 1d9 1fpl mbxlt 3 q6 g p p p tq , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3` tq , m3 p p gq 4t \( om 5 p 1d9 7 qtm 2tcv9f0 , `uz nrhj gizw \? 1t e q q , 3 , 3 q , 3 qq , 3 z6ei 6e pmf q 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 6 a86 e145 145 145 14 m5 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 ! 86 a86 \) mr g \) r8f \) b8f \) 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 r \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) mb8f \) b8f \) b8f \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) b8f \) b8f \) b4q , 3 q , v g m9v \? q 4tb u34 `9 1eqtct f9f9f9f9`p , 7ey 7kn nrhj giz \? 1t ' m1t '1 \? w '1z6e v9f9l3 , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' ! 5u 7u \? ` l 1t '1t '1t ' mi 575 3bx ! 45u , ' 2 8r , 74 pw \) y0 ! c ! , `p , `uy n lj gizwt '1t e v ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a \) 0 ! g 4 \( il q l 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \) 7z vu 2 \( \( 2j l \) 2t rl 'ax 'au 3 \( 5p \) p , 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aw6 m8 z , cq 3l 5 x \( 'ax xy 45 vj z ! c \( r mx , ! f ! 18 , , 5g9p , 3 q , 3 q , em \) 0 ! `0 gk ! q 'ax qq , 0q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'su \? m5 2 9 6ni \? 6a f \( 'ax 'ax 'ax j d' s4 b \) vesa hp 8 51s \) giz giz giz giz giz giz bhj kn nuy `p 9 3w2tm 2tm 2tm \) q 7 q 1d9 1fpl 3 8n bxlt 0t 0t 3 q6 g p , 3 q , 3 q , b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8e , 3 q , 3 q , mb8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8e , 3 q , 3` g9 4tbxom wm4u 34 pl ! d9 1eq mtct f0 , nrizw \? w \? wt '1t ei 4 6ei 6e pl pl pmf9f q , 3 mq , 1f9f9f pl v9fq , 3 q qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 4 m5 14 a86 a945 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 14 m5 145 06 a86 a86 a86r g \) r f \) b8f \) b4q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , p p tq , m3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 r \) b8f \) b8f \) b8g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) g \) mr g \) r8f \) b8e , 3 p 9v \? 0t \( n 5 pl `9 7'2tct f9d `p n n bhj bhj giz '1t ei4 '1t '1t \? \? w \? w 'i0l pl pl 9f , 8 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a ! 5u 7u \? 5 ` ! mb l zp pl 9f9fq , 3 , 3 75 3bx ! \( 5u , '6 2 8p u4 , \) ! i2 , giz ghj giz 'i0o , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' g ` \( , bl qk \( r'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 5 bz vu l \( 4 ` \( 2j ! dk 3 3 \? 'ax 'au u ! 75 0 6 ` 75u 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aw6 8 zs , bl 5 \( 'ax mc nxy 74 \? ! c \( r x , ! q6 g9p 3 q , 3 q , em p 5u \) 0 ! `0 5z 'i0o , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'su \? 9 9 6a f j 6 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax j \? s4 n`0 ! \) vesa hp 8 518 , x n mn n 7ey 7ey 7ey 7ey 7ex `yf9 3t tm \) q 1d9l ! 34 wm wm wm v mbxn 0tq 7 9v p v g9p tq , 3 q , b8f \) b8g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r d6 lg \) r g \) r g \) r f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8g \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b4q , 3 q , p g m9v \? q 4t \( n 5 p 1d9 \( f0 , 7ez nrizw \? w z \? giz bhj kn mn n n e , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 6 a86 a86 a86 a865 145 145 06 a86 a865 14 m5 145 145 145 145 145 14 a86 a86 a86 lg \) r g \) r f \) b8f \) b8f \) 3 q , m3 q , p p 9v gq 7 q6 g9v g p 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) mb8f \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r f \) b8e , 3` 9v \? q 4t \( n b wm4u p ml ! \( 9f9f0 , `uy 7kn bhj gk \? wt '1t ei 5'1t 'i 6e pl pl pnei 4 9l3 , 3 qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 7u \? mt \) 3a b l , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 75 3b \( 5 , '6 2 8p q wi 4 ! , c 6e pl pl z4 pl 9f9fq 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \) 0 ! h3 , , ! \( n 3 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max u bz vu mk k r'ax 'au n 4 ` \) np f 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a zs , bl \( c 7o 'ax 0g nxy 74 \? 4 zr ! c \( 8 ! f u4 rs v bs0t mq 5g9v g9v \? 5u ! p `0 ij 4 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'su \? 9 \? 9 6a f 6 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 76 \? s4 n \) \( p 8 514 \? 5 \) p , f9d 3t 3t 3t 3w2tg q 7 q 1fpl ! 3 wm mbxn 3 q 7 q 7 q 7 9v g p 3 q , 3 q , 3 r \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) mb g \) r d6 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) mr f \) b8f \) b8f \) b4q , 3 q , 3 p v g9 4t \( om 5 p 7 qtct m7ex `p , 7ey `p , `p , `p , 7ez nrizwt , 3 , 3 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 6 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a865 145 145 06 a86 a86 \) r g \) mr g \) r8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b4q , 3 q , 3 q , 3` 9v g9 7 q 7 9v g p p 3 q , m3 q , 3 q , 3 q , b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) 3 q , m3 p p g9v gq 7 2 b wm4u pl ! d9 7 qtm \( 9d 7kn nrhj gizw \? mw \? w \? 1t ei 6ei 6ei 6e pl 9f9fq , 3 , 3 qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' 7u \? ` yz \) 75 kb l v2 ax 'ax 'ax ' max 75 3b k7 \( 5 , ' 2 \( p ! 4 ! \( 'ax 'ax ' , 3 q mq , , 0qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ! h5 ts , ! \( n j'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 7z vr \) ltt q \( l , 1 zd9 ke 0i \? 2'ax l cm p le 2n 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax m8 zs , ' ! dk 9d l , \( 8 'ax yj , nxy 74 \? 4 z c \( sk mh8 4e 8n bxn bxom 5 pp k` l ` \) , w 4e 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'su \? ! kh , 9 6a f 6 'ax 'ax 'as 76 \? d' mgf n p \) 2 , gq 14 \? 5 \) st tm 2 7 q 7 q 7 q 1d9 pl 3 v bs0tq6 g9v g9p p , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) mb8f \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r d6 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 lg \) r g \) mr g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b4q , 3 q , 3` gq30t p 1d9 1d9 7 q 7'2tct , 7ez nrhj gk \? 1t e mi0l 9l0qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 3 q , 3 \) mr g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r d6 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 \) r g \) r g \) r8f \) b8f \) b4q , 3 q , 3 q , p 9v g9v g9v g m9p p p tq , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , m3 r \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8e , 3 q , 3 p v g9 7 q 4t 2 b wm4u 3l `9 7 q mtm \( f0 7kn nrhj bhj biz gk \? w \? w \? w \? w \? w \? 1t ei 4 pmf m9f9fq , 3 q qax 'ax 'az \) 75u 7r \? h \) n n \? g ! \? l v2 ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 75 3b k7 \( 5u , qk 2 \( 1 9 4 ! \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 q 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , ! ad q 'ax 'ax 'ax 7z \( 0r ! 1l m2j l 4l 1 zs 3 \( r ! ! hr , l2 ` \) 2 m`0 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a zs , 8 , mk 3q q x 'ax ` j3 yj , xy g c` kh9 w q 1s \) q 7 q 2 3t 7ez p ` l ! u \) 6 v , 3a \( 2 \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax ' ` ! kh , 9 6a fm 0o 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 76 \? \( n q 1 \( \) , 8 51 \) 2 7 q 1d9 pl ! 34u 3 v bs3 9v tq , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 \( f \) b8f \) b8f \) mb8f \) b8f \) b8f \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r d6 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 lg \) r g \) r g \) r d6 a86 \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) m3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , p u34u 34 p 1eq \( 9f9`p , 7ey m7ey nrhj gizw \? 1t '1t q , 3 , 3 q , 3 q , 3 'ax 'as q , 3' mq , 1f9 l pl pl po \) r g \) r186 lg \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) mr g \) r g \) r g \) r d6 lg \) r g \) r g \) r f \) b8f \) b8f \) b4q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , m3` v g9v g9v g9v g9p tq , 3 q , 3 q , 3 p p , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , m3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 \( f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8e , 3 q , 3 p p 9v g mq 7 2 b wm 5 3l `9 7 qtm \( 9f9`p , `p , `p , `uy 7ey 7ey `p , m`uy 7ez n n bhj gizw \? wt '1t ei0l 9f q 75u 7r \? 5p \) n emu mt n \? h1 \? ! 'ax 'ax 'ax b5 3b \( 7 \( 5u , mn h 2 f \( 5'u 6`w ! hr , c \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax us 4 q' \? r'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 7z \( 639 , y24 2f'ax \) xx \) 4 ! 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax zs , 8 sk 'ax 0g ` j3 yj , xy g ! k \) , ! 8p bhj ' m1t ei 4 9g ! kr 4e \( ! `8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' \? ! q kh , f mm b \( 6l 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \( n q \( \) `h y1 \) yd tg 9l p4u 3 wm v bs3 q6 tq , 3 q , 3 \( f \) mb8f \) b8f \) b g \) r8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86r g \) r g \) mr g \) r8f \) b8f \) b4q , 3 q , 3 q , 3` p p p g9v \? q 4t \( n b wm4u p 1eqtm 2tct 9f9`p , `p 7ez gizw '1z6ei 6ei 6ei 6ei0l z6e mi4 \? \? wwizw \? w \? wt '1t '1t '1 \? w \? w 6 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r8f \) b8f \) b8e , 3 q , m3 p p p p v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9p tq , 3 q , 3 q , 3` p m3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 r \) b8f \) 3 \( f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) 3 q , m3 q , 3 q , 3 p p 9v gq 7 q30tbxn b wm4u pl ! d9 pl p 1d9 7 q mtm 2tm 2tm \( 2tm 2 2tm 2tm 2 3v9f0 7kn nriz \? wt 'i 4 u 75u 7r \? 5p \) n ! h1 \? ua p ! a` x nh 'ax 'ax ' max b5 3b \( 7 \( 5u , 2 \( 1 1 \? , p8 e \( 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a ts 8 l \) 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 7z \( l t1 xm 6 3 8 8r x8 ! c \? 8 , c \( r'ax q \) ! `1 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'azf ! xp , ' vj s9 2l 'ax 0g yj , xy 745 g e \) 2k 8 ! , 2'ax 'ax 'p 8x \) l' \( ! , 34 \( ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'su \? u ! \? \( r'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax d' mgm \( z2 h 2 , e y1 \) p , f3w2 1fp4u 8n bxlt mq 5g9v g9p 3 q , 3 q , 3 \( f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8g \) r g \) r g \) a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 lg \) r g \) r g \) b8f \) b8f \) b4q , 3 q , 3 q , p g9p g9v g p m9v gq 4t \( n b wm wm4u pl ! d9 1d9 7 qtm \( 3v9f0 , `p , 7ez nrhj biz giz giz giz giz bhj kn n n n n n n n n nrhj bhj biz a86 a86 a86 a86r g \) r g \) r f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) mb8f \) b8f \) b4q , 3 q , 3` p g9v g9v g9 7 q 4t \( n bxn bxn bs0t 0t 3 q 7 q 7 q 7 9v g9p tq , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 r \) mb8f \) b8f \) b4q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 p p g9v g9v gq 5g9v gq 7 q30t 0t 0t 0tbxom 5 34u pl ! d9 1eq 7 q 7 q 1d9 1d9 1d9 1eq \( 9f9`uy nrizwt 'i 75u 7r \? h \) n ! h9 1a p ! x n 'ax 'ax 'ax 75 3b \( 7 \( 5u , 2 8p \? 8 ! 1 1 1 m8 , \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' ol qb 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'au \) 0i , ! 0 8 \( 4e , p 5 1 ! va p ! `0 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ap \? `1 pc 't zl x 'ax pg 5 mlv xy 4 \? 4 g \? rk \? 514 \? 5 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax p ! 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'su \? u5 2 nn r 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax j tojx z2 2 , ! 9 mf \) q pl 34 wmbxlt , 7 9v g p , 3 q , 3 q , b8f \) b8f \) \) b8f \) b8f \) mr g \) r g \) r g \) r186 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 e145 145 145 14 m5 06 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 \) r g \) r f \) b8f \) b8f \) b4q , 3 q , m3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3` v g9v gq 7 0tbxn bxn bxn u34u 3l p 1d9 7 q 7 qtm \( 9f9f9d `p , `p , `p , `p , `p , `p , `p , , `p m7ey 7ey 7ey 7ey `p \) r g \) r186 \) r g \) r g \) r f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) mb8f \) 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , p 9v g9v \? q 7 q 7 0t \( n u34 pl pl ! 34u 3 wmbxn bxn bxn 0tq 7 q 7 9v g p p p p tq , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 p p p p p 9v g9v g9v g m9v g9v g9v g9p p g9v g9v gq 7 0tbxn wm4u pl ! d9 1eq 7 q 1d9 1d9 1d9 1eq \( f0 , 7kn nrizwt '1z6ei \) 75u 7r \? h \) mt n \? h9 1a ! , ! o` ! , 'ax 'ax 'ax 75 3b \( 7 \( 5u , vc , 4 \? , q \? 5145 148 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 1 1 r 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'au 3 , , ` kh9 w v` 5 1 fi f'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'au \( 6e 4 ! n0 c pm l \( 8 'ax vo 5 \? 8 4 z z \? 8 k \? 514 \? 5 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax p ! ! `8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax u5 2 9 \? qh `5 m0 'l \? r'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax gi \) t2 ya ! b2 , ! u \) p 9 \) q 7 9l ! 3 v bxlt , 7 q 5g9v g9p tq , m3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 r \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) r g \) r g \) a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 m5 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 06 a86 a86 a86 a86 lg \) r g \) mr f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b4q , 3 q , 3 q , 3` 9v g9v g9v g m9v g9v \? q 4t \( n wm4u 3l pl ! d9 7 q 7 q 7 9 1d9 1eq 7 q 7 q mtm 2tm 2tm 2 3t \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r8f \) b8f \) mb8f \) b8f \) b4q , 3 q , 3 q , p g9v g9v g p p 9v g9v gq 7 0tq 7 0tbxom wm wm 5 34 pl ! d9 1d9 1d9 pl p4u 34u v bxlt mbxn bs0t 3 q 5g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9 7 q 7 mq 7 q 7 7 q 7 q 7 q6 g9v g9v g9v g9v gq 7 0tbxn mbxom u34u 3l `9 1d9 pl pl `9 7'2 9f9`p nrhj gizw '1t e 7r \? h \) n \? h9 `1 o` ! \) ! ax 'ax 'ax ' max 75 3b \( 1 \( 5u , , ! e \? 7u 5 148 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 1 1 l \( col r'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'au b 8 ! ' h 8 c` kh9 , ms v ! 1s , r'ax 24g eu f'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax mo , ! es ` 0x 'ax vo 5 6j e jpwu 5 k 8 ! 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' k` \) 76 ` ! 24g `7ax \( ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \) u m5 2 9 \? 'l `5 h z 9 p 'ax 'ax 'ax gi k mgm t2 1 z4j \( qk ya ! \) 1 \) p 9 2 1d9l ! 3 8n 0t 0tq 7 q 7 q 7 9v g9v g9v g9v 3 q , 3 q , 3 \( f \) b8f \) b8f \) b g \) r g \) mr g \) r186 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 e145 145 145 145 145 ! 86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r f \) b8f \) b8f \) mb8f \) b4q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , p p g9 7 q 7 q 4t 0tbxom 5 34u 3 m4 pl pl 34u 34u 3l p 1d9 1d9 7 q 2tm 2tm 2 3t 3t 3v \) mb8f \) b8e , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , p p g9v g9v g9v \? q 7 0t 0t 0tq 7 mq 7 q 7 q30tbxn bxn bxn u34u 34 p 1d9 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 q 2 mtm \) q 7 9 1fpl ! 34u v bxn 0tq 5g9p p v g9v gq 7 q 7 mq 7 0t 0t \( n bxn bxn bxn bxn bxn bs0t 0t 2 bxn bxn 3 mq 4t 0t \( n bxn b wm u34u m4u pl ! d9 1eq 7 q 2tct f0 7kn mn lj giz \? 1z4 pl 7r \? h \) p r o` ! , wlr \? ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 75 3b 45u , 9 ! i1 1 \? u 5 1s \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' 0e1 3 l \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'au 4r mh9 w 8 c` kh9 , 8 46 ! 8 , r'ax 'au z `0 ! ` '` fi 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'azf ! , 8 x 0x 'ax vo 5 \( mk , dc w v ! 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' \) 76 m` kqv \) yx \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax \) 9 \? nk ! 0 'l 55 60 9 j'ax ' max 'ax 'ax x 32 1 z4jn cit 5 o6 l ic \) 1 \) p 9 mf3t 3w2 1d9l mbxlt 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t 0tq 5g9p , m3 q , 3 q , 3 \( f \) b8f \) b8f \) b g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r d6 a86 a86 a86 e145 14 m5 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 06 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 lg \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r f \) b8f \) b8f \) b4q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 p p p m9v g9v \? q 7 0t \( n bxn b wm 5 34u 34u 34u 34 pl pl ! d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 7 q 7'2tm \) , 3` p p 9v g9v g9 7 q30t 0tbxn bxn mbs0t \( n 0t \( n b wm wm wm wm4u 3l `9 1d9 1d9 7 qtm 2tct 3t 3t 3t 3t tm \) q 7 9 1fp4u 8n 0t , 7 q6 g m9v g9 7 q 4t 0t 2 bxn bxom wm wm wm wm wm wm wm4 wm wm wm u34u 34u u34u 34u 34u pl ! d9 1d9 1d9 7 q 7 qtm \( 9f9f0 , 7kn biz \? wt '1z6e pmfq 'ax 7r \? 5p \) p gg u \( ! o` gv , 5' ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 75 3b \( 5u , k 3 8 ! i1 \? 7u 5 x 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a 0e1 l zl yh 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'au a' , 8 c \) 3k \) 46 ! 18 , r'ax 'au n ! ` kg ` 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a f ! r w ! b 4 l 'ax `5 \( \) ! lq 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax ' 876 ` kp ! giz gh 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \) 9 \? nk ! \) e 2f'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax x 32 1 z4jn ! wit 5 mo \( kn 7ex f3w2 7 9 p4u 34u 34u 34u 3 wm m4u 34u 34u 3 8n , 7 q 5g9p p p , 3 q , 3 \( f \) b8f \) r g \) r g \) r g \) a86 a86 a86 e145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 14 m5 145 14 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) b8f \) b8f \) b8e , m3 q , 3 q , p p g9v g9 7 q 7 q 7 q30t 0t \( n bxn wm4u 34u 3 m4u 34u 34u 3 wm4u 34u 34u 3l pl ! d9 7 bxn bxn b wm4u 34u p 1d9 p4u 3l `9 7 q 1d9 pl ! d9 7 qtm 2tm \) q 7 q 7 q 2 9f9 m`p , `p 7ey n n n n 7ex `p , `p , `p , f9f9f9f9f9d 2 7 q 1d9 pl 34u 3 wmbxn bxn bxn bxn bxn bxn b wm4u 34u 3l pl p ml pl ! 34u 34u pl pl p 1d9 1d9 1d9 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 qtm 2 mtm 2tm 2 3t 3v9f0 n lj \? , 3 qax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' 7r \? 5p \) g 2 x0 ! \( \? 51 5' ax 'ax 'ax ' max 75 cb \( 5 , qn 9 ! i1 \? 7u 5 x 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a 0e1 ! 3 lk zl 3mh j'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aq3` \? hh , 8' 7h 8 c k 1 1 46 ! 18 , r'ax 'au \? 36 ! ` ` 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax mt c , ! , 'ax \? n 5 ' \( z \? p k mx , c \? , e \) 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ! ! giz gh ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' u m5 2 9 \? nk ! j 'ax 'ax 'ax x mgf t2 1 z4jn ! wit 5 ab k 91 6 e1t \? \? ghj km `p 9 3w2 7 9 1d9l `9 1d9 `9 1d9 pl 3 wm 8n bxn bs0t 0t , 5g9p , m3 q , b8f \) b8g \) r g \) r d6 a86 a86 a86 e145 145 145 145 145 145 14 m5 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 06 a86 a86 a86 a86 lg \) r g \) mr g \) r g \) r g \) b8f \) b8f \) 3 q , 3 q , 3 p p 9v g9 7 q 7 0t 0t 0t \( n bxn bxom wm wm wm wm v bxn bxn bxom wm wm wm4u 2 mtm 2 \( 3t 3t 3t f9d `p 7ez nuy 7ex `uy n lj gk \? wt 'i 6e mi4 'w \? w 'i 'i 6ei 4 pnei 6e1t '1 \? giz ghj bhj bhjnuy 7 , `p , `yf9f3t 3t tm 2 7 q 1d9 1d9l pl pl pl `9 1d9 1fpl ! d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 7 q 7 q 7'2tm \( 3t , `p , `p , `p , `uy n lj gk \? 1z6e pl 9l0qax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 7r \? 5 ! r2 , g ! \( 0 ! \( 0 u 1 5' ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 75 cb \( 5 h ! e 1 \? 51 5 x 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' 0e1 ! 3 lk oq 3mh j'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aq3` g6 \? o` h mh , 8 ! f k \? 518 8 ! 18 'ax 'au 1b , ! ` f 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aw6 \) , , , \? 4w 'ax \? n c 5 \( \( \? e \( r x , c \) 0w ! hr ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'p ! gh 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax ' ! 3 u5 2 9 \? nk ! h \( r'ax ' max 'ax 'ax ! `0 k ! 02 , ! wit 5 ab m9 ne1 \? giz km `yf9 2 7 q 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9l ! 34u wm 8n 3 q 7 9p , 3 q , b8f \) b8g \) r g \) a86 a86 a86 e145 145 14 m5 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 14 m5 ! 86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86r g \) r g \) b8f \) b8f \) 3 q , 3 q , 3 p v g9v \? mq 7 q30t 0t 0t 0t \( n bxn bxn bxn bxn bxn bxn bxn bxlt 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t 1z gizw '1t '1t 'wt 'i 4 9l3 , 3 q , 3 qq , 3 mq , 0q , 3 q , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax q , 3 9f9f pl 5'1t '1 \? w z giz kn 7ex `p , f9f9f3t 3t 3t tm 2tm 2tm 2tm 2 7 q 7 q 7 q 1d9 1eq 7 q 7'2tm 2tm 2 mtm 2tm \( 3t f9f9`p , 7ez bhj biz giz bhj giz giz gk \? wt e v9f mq , 0qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 7r \? 5 c \( \) 6 x e \) 2 ! 1 5 \? ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 75 3b \( 7 \( 5 \( 2 , , 4 ! q1 1 145 x 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a p 2o h ! l 3mh j'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'aq3` g6 \? o` h \) r \? , 8 4 u k , 8 ! 145 'ax 'aq1 1b , pt ! ` ! f j 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aw6 \) 7 , , 't 0 q 1c \) lb \( 8 'ax \? n c 5 `9 z8 \? e \( r x , \( p c \( r ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax ' yu w6 ! , ! 75u 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' ! 3 u5u 2 x ! h 2l 5 0 ` 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ! ! 0 sit 5 mo w slk yd 22 , x8 'ax q9 ne1 z bj 7ex `p 9f3t 2tm 2tm 2 mtm 2tm 2 7 9 1fpl 3 wm 8n 3 q 5g tq , 3 q , b8f \) b g \) r186 a86 a945 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 14 m5 145 145 145 145 145 145 06 a86 a86 \) r g \) r g \) r8f \) b8f \) b4q , m3 q , 3 q , p g9v gq 7 q 7 q 4t 0t 0t 0t \( n bxn bxn bxn 0t 0t 0t 0tq 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 q 6'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 3 q mq , 3 9f8 z5'1 z bhjn 7ey 7 , `p 9f9f9 3t 3t 3w2tm 2tg q 2tm 2tm 2tm \( 3t f9f9f9f9`p 7kn n n biz \? 1t 'wt '1t ' m1t '1z6e pl v9fq , 2'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' 7r \? 5 3 \( b5 1 `0 ! 1 5 \? ax 'ax 'ax ' max 75 3b \( 4 , \( r , 4 \? ! 1 1 145 x 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax h \( mk yh j'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aq3` g6 \? o` w8 ws , 45 145 'ax 'aq1 1b , ! `0 ! 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax mt 6c 't , ! 1c \) lb \( 8 'ax fx \) vl 7y c \( r , \( r , flax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'j kp ! \( ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax u m5u 2 ! j1d 5 0 c \) 2'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ! m0 \) c0 o7 q9 3 uh 'ax 'as' q , 1f z5'1 z kn 7ey 7ex `p 9f9f9 3t 3t 2 7 9 ! 34u 8n 3 q6 g p , m3 \( f \) b8f \) r g \) r d6 a86 a86 a865 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 14 m5 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 14 a86 a86 a86 a86 \) r g \) mr g \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , p 9v gq 7 q 7 q 7 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t 0tq 7 q 7 q 7 q 5g9v p 3 q , p p ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qq 9f pl 6e1t \? \? w z bhj mnuy `p 3t 3t 3t `p 7ez nrizw \? m1t e v , 3 q , 3 qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 7u \? 5 3 \( r , 2j 6 ! 1 5 \? ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 75 0 tzx 6 9 \? 8 'u 1 1 , e \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' 1 2o h h \( mh j'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'az \) g6 \? o' h mh9 w8 , 45 k \) w 45 145 'ax 'aum ! `80 ! 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'azf ! 4 ! n , , 5 \) lb \( 8 'ax k6 v yj 2u c 2 3t 3 lax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax m`0 ' , ! \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax '5u \? u5u 2 ! k , 5 \) g 1 2 ! c \) 2'ax ' max 'ax 'ax k p ! m0 \) c0 ! 5j \? mei \( clk ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax qq , 1f pne1 z km 7 , `yf9f3t 3t tg q 1fpl 3 v bxn bxlt , 5g p , 3 r \) b8g \) r g \) r186 a86 a86 a86 a86 e145 14 m5 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 06 a86 a86 mr g \) r g \) r g \) b8f \) b8f \) b8e , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , p 9v gq 7 mq 7 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t 3 q 7 q 7 q 7 9v g9v g m9p tq , 3 q , 3 q , 3 r'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'as q , 3 q , 3 9f8 z6e1t '1 \? wwiz bhj bhj bhjn n bhj giz \? 1t qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 7u `5 34u , 7 6 ut \) zi q 5 \? ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 75 0 0p mn ! \? , j 1 146 , e \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 2o q 'ax 'ax ' max 'aq1 ! gc h9 46 kh9 w v` 45 145 'ax 'aum mp ! `80 ! u 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ayz ! 8 4c 244 \? 64 3 l \( 8 'ax kp v \? ndk ge 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax ' zi zf \( ! 4a , ! \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax '5u \? u5u 2 fq \( ! k , 6 e \) 2 ! c \) 2'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax k u ! m0 \) k 68 ' sl l x 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? q 8 i4 \? \? bj 7 , f3t mtm \) q q 1d9 ! 34u 8lt , 7 9v 3 q , 3 r \) b8f \) b g \) r d6 a86 a86 a945 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 14 m5 145 06 a86 \) r g \) r8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b4q , 3 q , 3 p p p g9v g m9v g9v g9v g9 7 q 7 q 7 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t 3 mq 7 q 7 q 7 q6 g9v p , 3 q , 3 q , b8f \) 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as q , 3 q mq , 0q , 3 q , 3 q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' 7u `5 34 x ! 7u , b \( tz qp 5u \) 779 3 \? , 5 \? ax 'ax 'ax ' max 75 tz ! np ' 8 ! 1 14 pw ! h 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q q \? n 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aq1 , yg kh9 , ms 5 18 , r'ax 'aum p ! `0 ! eu 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ay , 6 , 3x \( 8 'ax 1 vp v \? 2 m2 \) dk 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' xe \( ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax '5u \? u m5u 2 q \( ! 9 e bud \? 2 ! c \) 2'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax k u x \) k l \( iq ! h ! h h 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' mas' 9 ne1 z bj 7 9 3w2 7 q 7 q 1d9l 3 v bs0tq 5g p , 3 q , m3 \( f \) b8g \) r g \) r186 a86 a86 a865 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 14 m5 145 145 145 145 145 14 a86 \) r g \) r f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) 3 q , 3 q , m3 q , 3 q , p p g9v g9v g9v gq 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t , 7 q 7 q6 g9v p , 3 q , 3 q , 3 \( f \) b8f \) r g \) r f' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aum 5 7 u \? 5 c4u , 7u , \) 779 n 3 w 5 \? ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 75 tz p v l 3 45 1 1 m8 , pw ! h 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' p tr \) k6 \? q \? n ! 6k 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aq1 mh8 , yg x74 , 5 1s 'ax 'a ! 6 ! eu mp n'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ap pwu , \( 'ax 9 , jp2 \? \( ! v`3 yj 61 2 2l \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax '` mt ! w 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax '5u ` u5u 2 q \( ! , m9 \) ! c \) 2'ax ' max 'ax 'ax \) c0 zl ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q9 f3t tg 9 1d9l 3 wm mbs0tq 5g9p 3 q , 3 q , 3 \( f \) b g \) r d6 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 m5 145 14 a86 a86 a945 145 14 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 lg \) r g \) r f \) mb8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b4q , 3 q , 3 q , p v g9v g9v \? q 7 q 7 q 7 q 4t 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t 0tq 7 q 7 q 5g9v tq , 3 q , b8f \) mb8f \) r g \) r g \) a86 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a ! 5 7u \? 5 34r , 7 mu 2y a` \) 6 ! ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 75 0 tz p v bf , 45 1 1s , ! h 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a 0e1 ' \( \? rq q r'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'aq1 48 ! , yg x74 , 5 1 p 'ax 'a ! mp ! u 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ap u \) , \( 'ax \? k z l sq 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax '` \) 6 ! p 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax '5u ` u5u 2 fq \( ! \) c \) 2'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ! k8 k0 mk \) 0x 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q9 ne1 z km `yd 2 7 9 p4u 3 v bs0tq 5g p p , 3 q , 3 r \) b8g \) r g \) r186 a86 a86 a86 lg \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r d6 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 lg \) r g \) r g \) r8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8e , 3 q , 3 q , 3` v g9v g9v \? q 7 mq 4t 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t 0tq 7 q 7 9v g m9p 3 q , 3 q , b8f \) b8g \) r g \) a86 a945 14di 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' ! 5 7u \? 5 3 \( u , 7u 2v qh \) l ! c w r ! ax 'ax 'ax ' max 75 v f f , l 45 1jpt78 ! 1 \? 51s e \( 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax k5 l4 \( col r'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aq1 8 ! , yg x74 , m8 5 1e \( r'ax ! u 39 n'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ap wu 0u n \? \( 'ax , bl jz nn ! z l l ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax '` , p \) \( ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax '5u m5u 2 fq \( ! 55 h sqk yj h c \) 2'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ! 4e k u u mj t2 ia \) mdk \) \( e o1 ! \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max kl 2 7 9 p4u v 7 9v 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , mb8f \) b8f \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) mr g \) r d6 a86 a86 \) r g \) r g \) r g \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3` v g9v g9v \? q 7 q30t 0t 0t 2 bxn bxn 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t , 7 q 7 q6 g9p tq , 3 q , 3 r \) b8f \) b8g \) r g \) r186 a865 145 14di ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a ! 5 7r \? 5 c4r , bu , o5 ! \) lq 6 \? ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 75 \( p l 45 1j , q1 \? 51 ms 51s \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aum 8 kh9 , 5 1c \( r'ax u ` 39 n'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aw ! ip c \( 8 'ax 1 c \( , ! \( p 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' ! , xv `7 xp \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax '5u 2 ! ! ! \( 5 h 'lk yj h c \) 2'ax ' max 'ax 'ax `5 k u u 6 \) mdk \) \( h 'l \( ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 6 tm \) q 1d9l ! 34u 34 v 3 q6 g m9v tq , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 \( f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) r f \) b8f \) mb8f \) b g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) b8f \) b8f \) b8e , m3 q , 3 q , 3 q , p p 9v g9v \? q 7 q 4t 0t 0t 2 bxn bxn bxn 0t 0t 0t 0t , 7 q 7 q6 g9v tq , 3 r \) b8f \) b g \) r g \) a86 a86 m5 145 145 \) 2di 2u 6'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a ! 5u 7r \? 5 c \( r , b mu , k9 5 \( lq 'ax 'ax 'ax 75 xe 5p ! l 45 1j z \? 1 \? 5 v ! 48 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \( j q \( 'ax 'ax ' max 'aum , e' 7g kh9 , 45 1c \( r'ax u ! 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ay , \( 8 'ax v ! p u yl 0 \( qax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax \) ` f a' xp \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax '5u \? zn u5u 20 ! \( sl `5 mh 'lk yj 2t c` 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax `5 k 24 \) md mk \) \( h sqk \( \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as 7 9 p ml 3 g tq , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , mb8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) mr f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3` v g9v g9 7 q 7 q30t 0t 2 bxn bxn bxn bxn 0t 0t , 7 q 7 q 7 q 5g9v p , 3 q , b8f \) mb g \) r d6 a865 145 22di 2dm75u 75u 75u 6'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' ! 5u 7r \? 5 c \( r bu , k9 5 17r ! 1k l j lq ax 'ax 'ax ' max 75 1 3a ! 8w l 45 1j z \? 1 \? , ! i0 8 \( 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \( h xm , , ! c 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aum , ! kh9 w 1 f'ax ! g 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'azf ! u , 8 5 , \( 8 'ax v ! 0l 0 'h mx 5h z 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , , ` b4 ! a` u \( ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax '5u \? zn u m5u 2 \( '8 ! \( \? 'l `5 h 'lk yj 2t c \( r'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ` k 6 ! mp ml zq zl 9i \( h q \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 68 f3t tg 9l mbxn 0t 3 q 5g9v tq , 3 q , 3 q , 3` p , m3 p p p p p 3 q , p p p tq , 3 q , 3 q , 3 r \) b8f \) b8f \) mb8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b4q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , p v g9v g mq 7 q 7 q 4t 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t , 7 q 7 q 5g m9v tq , 3 q , b8f \) r g \) r186 a865 145 22di 2di 5u 75u 75u 75u 6' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a br \( r \( 4r , 5 17r ls , \) xr \? ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 75 1 45 jpv \? , q1 6`w mc \( ste \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' maq \( 4 l9 ! ic \? , 45 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aum 6 `3 yj \) hy y14 skh8 4e \? , q 3 'ax ` \) v ` j u 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aw6 ! , 't 8 5 \( 8 'ax v ! ! , v hx ! \? ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'p 9 mu \) b4 ! `0 u 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax '5u \? zn u5u 2 \( '8 ! 0r h 'lk yj h \( r'ax ' max 'ax 'ax ` k b yl \( \? q 1 \( h q 0x ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a 0 1 z km `yd tg q 1fp4u mbxn bxn bxn bxn mbxn bs0t 3 q 7 q 7 q 7 q30t 0t 0t 0tbxn bxn bxn bxn bxn mbxn 3 q6 p 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 p p p p g9v g9 7 q 7 q 4t 0t 0tbxn bxn bxn bs0t 0t 0t 0tq 7 q 7 q6 g9p 3 q , 3 q , 3 \( f \) b8f \) r g \) r186 a945 145 \) 2di 2 75u 75u 750d 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a ` \( mr , c ya ! 5 17u \? r ` c \? , \) xr ! ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 75p \( 1 7a ! 4 45 jpt78 ! 1 9 c \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aq \) kt 4 j l9 ! \? 6'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'aum yj \) hh y14 skh8 4e ! , 3 'ax 39 , 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aw6 ! 't 8 3x 'ax ! 32' ' 0 v ! o5i ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 7u ! 4r l ! 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax '5u u5u 2 \( ! 0 mh 'lk yj hd \? 2'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ` al \( \? z4j 9 q q \( h \( ah q ! 0x 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 9 2 7 9 1d9 1fpl pl pl p4u wm u34u 3 wm4u 34 wm wm4u 34u 34u p ml pl p pl pl pl 34u 8n 0tq 7 q6 g9v g p p p p p g9v g p 9v gq 7 q 7 q 4t 0t 0t \( n bxn bxn bxn bxn mbxn bxn bxn bs0t , 7 q 7 q 5g9v g9p tq , 3 q , b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) r g \) mr g \) a865 145 \) 2di 2u 75u 75u 5 0d \) 0d 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' \( em \( tq ! 5 17u \? r \? j , \) xr \? ax 'ax 'ax ' max 75p \( 1 xe 5p \) \( p 45 , , 3 \( 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aq \) kt 4 n l9 ! ct \? 6'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aum yj \) h y14 skh8 4 \) 2 ! \? , 3 'ax h4 p ! , 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aw6 ! 't q f z4 j ! 32 \( ' cjc mx ! ! o7 ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 7u ! 4r l ! ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' \) m5u 2 \( 1 ! h \( ! 0 qh `5 0 'lk yj 'ax 'ax 'ax x ` m5 02 \( p z4j k q q h 'lk 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax e `yf9 3w2tm \) q 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 q 1d9 1d9 7 q 7 q 7 q 1d9 pl pl ! d9 1d9 1eq 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 9 1d9 1fpl p4u 3 wm wm 8n bxn 0t 3 q 7 q 4t 0t \( n bxn wm wm4u 34u 3 m4u 34u 34u 34u 34u 3 wm wm 8n bxlt , 7 9v g9v g9v g p 3 q , m3 r \) b8f \) b8g \) r g \) a86 a86 a865 14di 2u 75u 75u 5 0d g9v max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as x ! 04 em p yn l ` \( tq o5 17u \? u \? j 1 3 \? ax 'ax 'ax 'ax bh \( 2j`e \( p l 4 \? , , \) p , , g , \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' maq \) \? 4 n l9 ! ! u145 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aq04 yj \) h y14 skh8 4e \) 2 \? w 3 'ax h4 ! , ! mp , 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aw6 ! w , ! ip c ! kn 7 v ! ! 32 \( m' cjc uk ! x 9 ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? mu 175 4r l ! 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax ' ! u5u 2 \( fq \( `5 yj j j'ax ' max 'ax 'ax k \? 175 02 \( \( z4jn q q e o1 ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 68 i4 \? \? wwiz bj 7 , f9f9f9d f9f9f9f9f9d 3t 3t 3t 3t 3t 3t 3t 3w2tm 2tm \( 3t 3t f9f9`p , 3t 3t 3w2tg q 1d9 1d9l pl ! 34u wm wm wm4u 34u 3 ml pl ! d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9l pl pl pl pl 34u 3 wm v bs0t , 7 q 5g9v gq 7 9v g p , 3 q , b8f \) b g \) r d6 a86 a865 145 \) 2u 75 mu 5 0d \) g9v g9v 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax l `p p ` q5 17u \? u \? j 51 'ax 'ax 'ax 4 ` \( 2j ! 0 l \? \? p8 x9 , g , \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aq \( 4x q 1 ic w8 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'aq04 z \) h2 14 skh8 4e \) 2 \? w 3 'ax , ! 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax z jf ! ws lw ! 4 f \? q 4 ! 6 32' ' cjc uk ! x 9 ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax \? r 17h ` f ! 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax u5u 2x kh yj j 9 v'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ! `5 k 02 \( \( z4jn q o1 ! 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'q 9f pnei4 \? \? bhj bhj kn nuy 7ex `p , `p , `p , `p , `p , , `p , `p , `p , `p , m`p 7ey n n n n nuy 7kn n n n 7ex `yf9f3t 2tm 2tm 2 7 q 7 9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1eq 7 q 7 q 2tm 2tm 2tm \) q 7 q 7 q 7 q 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 p4u wmbxn bxn 0t 0t 3 9v 3 r \) b8f \) r g \) a86 a86 e145 \) 2dm75u 75u 750d \) 0d \) 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , x 2 ` 17u \? u ` u' , r \? ax 'ax 'ax ' max 4 ` \( 2j \( p l 45 1jz ! c 2 , ui , \( 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'avs \( tz \? q ! 3zl 1 mc r'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'au 4 zd \) h2 146 kh9 w \? w f'ax ! ` r 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax n \? e 8i 4 hg \) r 0 u ' cjc uk ! mx 9 q \( 'ax 'ax 'ax \) ! 9 8 ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax u 2x 9 \? ni \? \? yj j 9 v'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ! \( 2 \) u7 m5 020 \( q \? 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max qq 8 6ei 6ei 5'1 \? ghj bj nuy 7ey 7ey 7ey 7ey 7 , `p , m7ey 7ey 7ey 7ey 7ey n n n n n n n lj bhj bhj bj n n n n 7ey m7 , `p , `p , `p , `p m`p , `p 3t 3w2tg q 1d9 1fpl p4u 34u 3 wmbxn mbs0tq 5g9p 3 q , 3 r \) b8f \) r g \) r186 e145 \) 2u 75u 75u 75u 5 0d ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aw5u x \) 74x 2 ` 17u \? u ` mg r4 \) y2 \? ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 4 ` \( 2j 5pc \( p l 45 1jz \? 3 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' 'l ! ic , e` 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'au 4 3 zd \) 3bt m1 0i 0' h2 45 kg ! , r \? wc 2'ax 'a ! dlv ! mhs 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max \? 5 e n \? e e14di \( v1 x m' 9 'ax 'ax ' \( ! 7u b , x v 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 2x 9 9h mj 2v k 2'ax ' max 'ax 'ax \) 175 020 \( q \? 9 ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3' q 9f9f9f pl 6e1 \? bj n 7ex , `p , `p , `p 7ey n n n n n n n n nrhj bhj bhj bhj bhj bhj bhj bhj bj n n n n n n nuy 7ey 7ey 7ey 7ey 7kn n n m7ey 7ey 7ey 7kn n n n n n n n n n n n n nuy 7ex `p \) q 1d9 pl 34u v bxlt , 7 q 7 9v g9p , 3 \( f \) b8g \) r g \) r186 m5 \) 2u 75u 75u 75u 6'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aw5u '5u \) 74x q5 17u \? u \? 'ax 'ax 'ax 4 ` \( 2j \( p l 45 1jz k uk , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'avs \( , ! , ! 'ax 'ax ' max 'au 4 3 xi 2o h9 , 8 514 r \? w ! \( ! 7r xv ! ! 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 7 tr \) b g \) pu , ! rd 5 mx \) , jp2 , 9 o5i te \? 2' max 'ax 'ax ' \( ! 7u ! 1 ! o' `7 vp \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax u5u 2 k 6ni \? mm q nd 2v k 2'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 75 \( q 9 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 1f z5'wwiz kn 7ey 7ex `p , f9f9f9f9`p , `p , `p 7kn n n n n nrhj bhj bhj bhj giz bhj bhj bhj giz giz giz bhj bhj bhj bhj bhj kn bhj bhj bhj bhjn n nrhj bhj bhj biz giz giz bhj bhjn n mn n n n 7ey `yf9 3t 2 7 9 1d9 p4u 8n 3 q 7 q 5g9p , m3 q , 3 \( f \) b8g \) r g \) a86 e145 \) 2di 5u 75u 6'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' 75u \) 74x 4e \) 3c` \( tq q5 17u \? r , x \? 'ax 'ax ' max 4 ` \( 2j ! 3a ! hp l 45 jz g 8 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aq \( , ! ct mc 'tc 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'au b ! 1 ! 51 , h8 4e k 1 1 m45 g w 'au \? ! 7u , ggb 4e 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max q , 3 qax 'ax q , 3' q ' , , 5 , tr \) r d6 a945 \) pu , c 0d 5 \( 75u4 \( v mx \? \) , 8 'ax 'ax ' \( ! \) `1 24 ! \( ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax u msu 2 k9 6a u k 2'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ! q7 m5 02 ! w \( z4jn sp1 q \( j 9 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' 9 ne1 z kn n 7ey 7ex `p 9f0 , `p , `p , m`uy 7ey 7ey n n n n bhj bhj giz giz giz giz giz gk \? w \? w \? mw \? w \? w \? wwiz giz giz giz giz giz giz giz giz giz giz giz mw \? w \? wwiz giz bhj bhj bhj bj nuy 7 , `p 9f3t tm 2tg q 1fp m4 v bs0t 3 q 7 9v g p 3 q , 3 \( f \) b8f \) r g \) r186 a945 145 145 2' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aw5u 75u \) 3 x ` \( tq o5 3 u \? r ` 92 , 'ax 'ax 'ax b ` \( 2j`e 3a ! hp l \? 51jz mk k 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' maq \( v \( , ! 't 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'au b ! l ! 5 , c \) ws g 4s 'ax 'au \? 3 p 5u 9x ! 'ax 'ax 'a 0 n `p 7 9 \( 3 tr \) r186 m5 145 \) 2di 2di \( 't 8 5 \( 9v fy ml c hx fq z l , 8 'ax ' h4 ! p ! ! 5x 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax ' ! 2 \( ! 0va 6a fm q ndk p ' max 'ax 'ax 02 , 4z n l \( j ! 0x ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3' q 8 z5'1 \? giz kn mn 7ey 7ey 7ez n n n lj bhj bhj giz giz giz giz gizw \? w \? mw \? w '1t '1t '1t '1t '1t '1t '1t '1t \? \? w \? w \? w \? w \? w \? m1t 'w \? w \? wwiz giz giz giz \? w \? w \? w \? w \? w z giz bj mnuy 7 , f9d 2 7 9 1d9l ! 34u 8n 0t 0t , 5g p , 3 q , 3 r \) mb8g \) r g \) a86 a86 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aw5u 75u \) 3 x 2 ` ya ! 5 3 u \? u ` 'ax 'ax 'ax b ` \( 3a ! hp l \? 51jz hm 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aq \( v \( , ! , ' 3 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'au \( l` , \( 4g 'ax 'au \? \( 3 ` \) n6 ` f 'ax 'q 9f3t 3t 7 9l mbs3 , b8g \) a865 \) 2u 75u 75u 75u 75u s9 2l `q \( 4 \) 0d n 6p \? m0 c z yl ' ! \( qhl 9h wy 5 3l ! d9 7 ` lj \? k` \) ! 4 , 0 77 5x 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax l \( 8cl'8 ! 0 f zn \? r'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax u 02 \( '2 qw mke 6a ! 0x 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' mq , 1f z6e1t '1 \? giz bhj bhj bhj bhj bhj bhj giz giz giz giz gk \? w \? w \? w '1t '1t '1t '1t '1t '1t '1t '1t '1t '1t '1t ' m1t '1t '1t '1t '1t '1t 'w \? w z giz biz giz \? w \? w '1t ' m1t ei4 '1t '1t 'w \? bhjn n 7 , \) q 7 q 7 q 1d9 1d9 ml pl 34 v bxn bxltq6 g9p , 3 r \) b8f \) 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' ` p ! 5 3 u \? u ` \) g 'ax 'ax ' max 7h \( \( p l \? 51jz k 8 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aq \( v p , ! 'ax 'ax 'ax 'au 75z \( l` 2j l9 ph ' \) 248 'ax 'au 3 ` \( 'q 7 \? 9p , 3 q , 3 r \) b g \) 75u 75u 75u 75u 5 0d \) 0 dk 5 \( 75u 7n fy ` \? m0 v ' c ! \( p l bs0t 0tbxn b vp 9f \) 76 `7 `0 ! , 5x ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax '5u u q \( jk ! r \) h \? f \( rn 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? `p q7 m5 02 4 n ! \? mej mke 6a \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 q , 1f z6e1t '1t '1t \? \? w \? w \? ghj bhj bhj bhj bhj bhj giz giz gk \? w \? w '1t '1t '1z6ei 6ei 6ei4 ' m1t '1t '1t '1t 'i 6ei 6ei 6ei 6e1t '1t '1t 'w \? giz giz giz gizw \? 1t '1t '1t ei 6ei 6ei 6ei 5'1t '1t \? \? w z bhjn 7ex m`p , f9f9 3t 2tg q 1d9 1d9l pl pl p4u 3 v bs3 q 7 q6 ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aw5u 3c`p ` mnp ! 5 3 u \? u ` 'ax 'ax 'ax 7h \( 2j`e 2 , e l 5 1jz mk g \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' maq \( tr \) v'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'au 75u \( m2j q 27i1 xm 3 e r2 , e ' w45 'ax 'au 3 hl ` \( 46 `x ix 1 j` \( 9l 3 q , b8f \) b8f \) b8g \) r g \) r d6 e22u 75u 75u 75 mu 75u 75u 5 0d \) 0 ' 9 9d \( j 75di \) fy , jz ' ! p bql p 7 q 7 9 7 9 3u f ! , ! gm ! 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax '5u 7 \( ' j b \( l r'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 75 02 4 n 5 mej mke \( ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 q 8 z6ei 5'1t ' m1 \? w z bhj bhj kn nrhj bj n n n n bhj bhj bhj giz \? w \? m1t '1t '1t ei 6ei 6ei 6ei 6ei 6ei 6ei 6ei 6ei 6ei 6ei 6ei 5' m1t '1t 'w \? w \? w \? w \? wt '1t ei 6ei 6ei0l pl pl pnei 6e mi 5'1t 'w z bhj kn n n n 7 , f3t tm 2 7 q 1eq 7 q 7'2tm 2 mtm \( tm 2 1d9l ! 34 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax , ` l`x mnp ! 5 3 u \? r `h sq zp ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 75p \( 2j ! \? 2 , l 45 1jz \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aq \( vt oq 2'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'au 75u \( l , ! dk ke r2 , ! e' 8 , , 45 'ax 3 5 345 bb ! 1 5 3 8lt , 5g tq , 3 q , 3 r \) b8f \) b8f \) mr g \) e14di 5u 75u 75u 75u 75u9 2di u8 mk 7q fgo 7o le \? \( ! m`p , `yd yx ! x2 \( \? hh 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax '5u 7 2 id9 s3 6 6j 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ! 2f 75 020 4 'it 5 mej \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' mas qq 9f pne1t \? \? w z bhj bhjn 7ey 7ey 7ey n n n n n n n n bhj giz giz gk \? w \? wt '1t '1t ei 6ei 6ei 6ei 6ei 6ei 6e end part 6 14
subject roman bmp 08 14 pwiseman salmon usd edu \( cliff \) reply pwiseman salmon usd edu \( cliff \) distribution usa organization university south dakota lines 956 part 8 14 max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ayz 8 0t l ! \( ! 0t 4e \) n \( u , c \( cz 1 3 ih \? ! 75 \( \( f jz q j3 yj 2we 3t 0 4e , 'ay mfyl j \) 0t \) 1 1d 4u 34u 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ! 17 jn ! 1 \( go \? qj 2f'ax 'ax ! cz b ` fyn \) 24e \) 6 mt 0t ! \) 25 p l `p l45u \? r \( ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax j0 p'5u 75u 9z `0 ! ! \) fyn fyn \( u 3 \( u 3 \( r` \) ' may 0 tzx p v c n \( 6c 0 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax v w e \( `86 \? ei ' c , q145 1 \? 51 m8 \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax r3t r0i ke 0i 2t k slk lk 'll c4u , b70 p h0 ! g ! ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax rlk p v q 4e \) \( r , c \( 75 \( q j3 yj 2we 3t uax ' x fyn fy \) 6 l u 1ku 34 mu \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ! v e ! 2b jn \( ! \? , 9 \? fq qj 2f'ax 'ax ! cz kh 0 cx cx cx fph h h hd \) 0d \) r \( 2' ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 7b p'5u 75uj9z `0 ! a' w8 ! ! \) 25 \( ` \( `lc \( mu , c \( r` \( l , e \) 'ax \? 5 v l n \( , 0 w 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax r 2 c \( \? ei ! f u \? p c f'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax e0 r3t , op r0i ke 3 9 k sl \( nrl p u 34u , c \( l ! r `0 k mt 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aw ! q , kt e \) 25a \) 6x r , \) 3y 1 3 ! p \( jl 75 mk , j1 'q j3 yj 2we 3t 0 , 8 \? u 8 f \) 24e \) 4mn u 34u 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'a \( 8ah \( vq 3zl , 9 j'ax ' max ! 6 \) \) n fsx h zu 6 \( h ` cx cx cz h h \) 0d \) 0d \) \( 2' ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 2 9z p'5u 76igiz ' ! `5 `7b \) 25 \( `lc \( r , c4u , 'ax \? j5 ! np v g0 \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' map v r 3 \( u ! , e \( \( 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'aw6 giz ! 0 r0i , p r3 9 3 9 k 4u 34 mu , c \( g9 ! ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax `0 ij f ! ` 24e \) 24e \) \) np 34w \( 3 \( , j1 l , 45 \? u 9 f \) 24e \) 4m fx dm 34u` 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax xc \( h0 9 vq 3zl v'ax 'a 6ub0d \) \) l fsx h z \( m1 ub z cx cx cz h h \) \) b8f \) \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ! f mgiz ' ! `82 `9z \) 4m \( r 3 \( r 34r` \) p ! a' ax ' hf p v ! dk w ! h 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q \) 4m r 34u , c id mk rlk 2'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aw6 giz k 2t k sl 34u , ak vlv dv ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \( ! `82 `0 ! ! \) z mga r5 lc \( u 0 7 \( 3 \( , j1 nl , ! 1 kt 4e \) 27 f 2tm \) 4mn \) n` \( 34 mu 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' 5d xc \( h0 9 vq 3zl bn \) h cx h z \( mb ! h ` cx cx fyl h h \) \) aj fij \( ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax ! ! giz gg ! `80 ! \) zi , c4r 3 \( \) ! , 3ax 'a , i1 v k w ! c 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax , 3 q \) 9 ! mu , c \( , 7 , e \( pi sl sl 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aw6 giz y0 27i1 3e hm9 2 k sl uh r , c4u , c \( r 1k vlv \) 9v dv fl \) su 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax `0 ! ' ! \( 2 \( 12`0 ! `82 `0 ! p 3` `e \( u 3 \( r` \( v ! 75 \( i1 l , e ! q \) 9j bh \) n , c4r , ` 4u \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max \? n 5d 6 \) ! \( ! \? , 9 \? zl n ' \) x cx h nb 40 \( bnh h x cx fyl h ! 0h \) 0df \) aj fj \( \? ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ! ! giz ' ! `80 ! giyu 3a 2 \( ' \( u 3 \( u , l , e8 ! xe v 2l k ! \) z `0 `0 x \) z ax 'ax 'ax 'ax r k r7 `lc \( r 3 \( b4 ! 45 e sl slk rl r'ax 'ax ' max 'azf giyxg ` y0 r3 9 l idk r 8 75z b vlv mg9 ! ! dv fl \) 7ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \) ! `0 ! `0 4 ! `0 ! `7ax ` \( \( r 3 \( u , fjr \( ! 75 \( \( fx 1 l 61 u 14 q6 5 ! \) 34r , c \( ` \) \( 34 \( ` \) 2'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ! \( 0 ! `7ax \) z 8 ! c9 `fy \( ! \? mb n \( cx cx h z \( b 40 6 \( kj h cx mfyl h ! 8 \) 0df \) aj fj r \( \? ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' 76 ' ! \) xgg5u , ! \( 4r , c \( r` \) n \( m5u np 5u \) 4v k yx ! `0 o` ! giz j eu ` `7 ! ax 'o ! , 3 h h \( \( ` `e \( r , c \( b4 ! ! e ed \? 'q l8 'ax 'ax 'ayz giyxg ` y0 r3 9 q \) 2j q \( 7 ! k d' ! y52 ! dv fl \) sx ! u 77` o`p c`p , ! 6 ! u \) 24 ! `0 ! `5 `0 ! `0 ! ! `8 ' k fjr \( ! 75 2`z \( 1 'q ! 14 p e0 ! `0 'j eup \? \( ` \) \( u 3 \( r' \( 34 mu 1 \? r 'ax 'ax 'ax , `x au 7 ! 34u , b qh \( j q n 74xp l45u j khb \( 6 \( b znh h x fyl h ! 8 b0d \) \) aj j r \( \? \( 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax ! ` a` xgg5u , ! fx \? g \( u , c \( ggb ! 2b5u 75z \) \) 24e \) 24e \) , 9 q \) 25at lk p ! \) vo ! , 3 q , 3 q , 3o \( \( k rlk rlk rl ! ax q h ! , 3 x \( ! n mr , c4 b4 ! \) 2 jl sq sl 'ax 'ayz giyxg ! ` y0 r3 9 q q 2j l' rn 7 ! 2'ax ' c '65 \) 2 ! g9 ! 04 ! 175u 7 , ! ! \( 12`0 ! `0 ! 4h2 m`0 ! `7ax \) z 'ax 56 dv \( ! 75 , 2d q , 4 \? 514 q `0 ! \) 2 eup hl u \( fx r 34r , c \( r , \? r 4u 0 \? w \( 2'ax 'ax 'ax ! th ``` m` \( ! , 3 \( u 34u 34u 34r , ` \( ` \) 3c` mp \) 75u \? 4u 3 \( ` 1 ub \( b \( b \( bnkjz h x fyl h ! 8 b0d \) \) aj j n \( \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' 75ugiz ' ! `82 `7b gg4xp , ! n \( \? n \( r` \( ggb 7 ! p e \) \) 24e \) 24e \) 4m rlk rl ! `0 vo ! , 3 q v ! rlk rlk p3 q h r h2 \) 27 \) 2 sl , sl \? 'l rq uko msu giyxg ! ` y0 r0i q ! u tz ! u ' max 'as '65 \) 2 ! g9 fmk sx su ! \( 0 ! `0 ! 4h2 \( 0 ! `0 ! `0 x \) z 'ax '6 g9 ! hl \) 7t q h9 4 \? \) ' ! ` \( u , c \( r` \( r , c \( \( 4u 34u' \? p \) ax 'ax ' max 'a b ! ! `3 th h ! fx r 34u 34u 34u 34 mr , c \( r , c \( r` \( `fy ! 04 6 sl o5ih 8b \( b \( b \( b \( b \( kjz h x h 0h hd \) \) aj j n \( ! uax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax m`0 ! 4a `p , ! 6 u ` ! 46 ` '5u e2 n fyn l , e \) n ! p 9 5 4e \) 24 ! , 3 q \( 0 ! m`0 ! 5o ! vo , \) 25 ! gg4xp , ! m6 sl \? 'l rq uko \) z giyxg ` y0 r0i 27i1 q ! u 6ei 7ax 'ax 'ax \? '65 \) 2 ! p \? 9 c9k pg sx ms 6kv ! \( ! `0 \( 12`0 x ` ! `0 x 'b ax 'ax ' max \? p , j5 7t , b mh9 , 41 1s \) j0 ! 4gb , c \( r , c \( r 34 mu ` \( ` \? w 2x 'ax 'ax 'a ! `3 s2 h ' c8 \( `lc \( u 3 \( u 3 \( r , c4r , `h j \( ! \? ujq ah , l qhl r \( b xi 2 , c \( r , c \( r , hm h b0d \) \) z \( \( 40m 6 \( ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax \) 9 ! p \? 9v dv c9k vmk u 5z \( 46 ! ! ! 175u 46 ` eu 6s \) dp , \( r , ! 4 \( ! , 3 q , 3 r o' `0 ! , 3 q v , , ! ! , `p , `p , ` sl , q q q \? yz giz ` y0 r0i 27i1 q \( 'ax 'ax 'ax '65 \) 260 \? 9 vl \) sx `s js 6ei 6kv 6ejq ! 4 ! \) z mgiz giz 'ax 'ax 'ax ! ! ! b ! 75 ml 0 7t q 45 p ! e0 'g 54 'ax \? \( mr , c4r , fx ` \( `lc \( u 0 \( ' `g ` \) ax 'ax 'a bx x z ! , w y' csl sl ! 04 ! 04 ! 8 ` l \) \( ` v 'o q ah , l , \( b \( b \( b \( b , , \? 2 , c \( r , c \( r , c g 9 sq l sl \( \( ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a g9 ! p \) \) z j eu 3 x mp , ! 6 v 5 c \( 2 , xgg5up l45u 7 o` 2tm 2gtc \( r , c \( p ! ! , 3 q , 3 q , 3 ! rlk rl ! 86 `` l ! ! v ! u \( ! gjeu , `p , `x c`p , \? r 4u y0 r0i 27i1 q c ! \( 1 ! \? k \? w \? c \( mr , c \( ` \) 2tm e5 \) 260 \? 9v dv vmk o5i v o5i f `0 \( ! `0 f j eu 8 'ax 'ax 'ax ' c 7 \? w \( ! 75 0 7t q 18 , ! h h \( ' ` 5 'ax 'r , c \( r , \( r 34 \( ! `g \? w \( \( max 'a bxn \( ! gi ! `3 s2 y' ! c8 sl sl ql ! 05l v q , z \( b \( b \( \? 3tc \( p ! , c z okz xb \( b 6ub 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a m4 ! gjeu ! 6um u 0 gjeu ! 7 o` '5u ! 6um 6 ` 2tm 2tm k \? 3t \( r , c` ! , 3o r q , 3 q v ma` ! p ! \) w \( 2 ! p \( ax 'v ! \) yu 74x x c`p , ! 6w \? w \( ` \( 0 r3 9 q c ! \( 1 ! \( ' bu , py ! 4e \( ! p \? 9v dv fmk ms u 6n ! `0 75u 'ax 'ax ' max ' 1d9 0 \) \? w 4u \( ! 7r , 0 7t q mwa ! e \) 25a \) \) ` ! `5 \) 2v f'ax 'ax 'a c \( ` \( fyn fyn lc \( mu , c \( \? w 0 u 34u ! \( n b 4 ! s2 y' ! c8 msl ql v c u 2gtc \( p ! 8 c \( st \( kj ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'aw ! `82 `0 ! gjeu 3c`p v 5u 77` , ! 6um 6 `x hm hm 0m k 3`p , l ! e u 5 5 p ! `0 ! `0 ! `5 \) v q , ! a' q , 3 r x0 ! 5n mr , 'aw v \) zi 75u , `x c`p , \) 0d 4e \) 24e \) 0t lk \) , ! 34r , c \( ` \) nr , \? w \? p \) 2 \( w ax ' ! p \? 9 c9k pg l q uj o5i 6ej o5i ql ! ` ! 4 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' fy \) 270 ny 1c j 0 \) \( \( r 34u 34 mu 2`z qk 8r \? ! \) `e \) k rl ! ax 'ax 'ax ' max \? \( ` \( l 4r , \) n2 l \? r 4 \( \? ! gi mz s2 y' ! c8 sl ql ql ql v u 6ei q ah o5i h 4p \? 3tc \( r , c \( r , c \( r , ep \( okz nkjznkj ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ap ! \( 0 ! `7ax \) z rn gg5u 3c` mp u' \) z giz 77` , ! `x hm 2ud9 2lk 'qk 1d , `p , , c \) 1 5 18 'u 5' , x2 `0 ! `0 q , ! ` 2a \( 2 `0 ! \( 'ax 'ax ' `p xk rlk 4e \) 0t 4e \) 4m p \( u 34u , c \( ` \) n fy 2tm rw \) mr f \( 2 \( w ax 'ap \? 9v dv c8v vmk sl 'y 6ei 6ej o5i gg ! `0 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' \) 25at 70 ny \) 9 ! n fx `lc \( u ! o4u 34r` \) \) 270 ! a` ! ! a86 a86 k rlk rl ! 4g 'ax 'ax 'ax '` \( ` ptm r , c4u , \) 75u 75u 7 m5u bxn \( ! s2 h' ! py ! c8 ql ql ql ql uj v u 6ei u 6k h ` \( kjz h 4p , 2 , c \( r , mc 3t 3t b okz oj ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ap a` ! 'b giz rn j75u u` \) n giz 77` , ! ! 046 `x 2tm 2udk 'l sl sq9 \( \? x2 \( 2 \( 12`0 x ' ! 4h2 `0 3a ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? fc 94 ' ! p3 q p3 q , 3 q ! 0t 0t \) 2vx r , c \( mu 34u 2` \( ! 2tm f \( 2 \( b 'ax c8v fmk vmk pb \? 'q ! vql 'o6ej o5i giz giz \? \? bhj e v9fq ' max ' l , e \) \) \( ' 4u 3 \( r , c4u ! o4u 34r` \) \) l ! w8 ! ` ! \) `e \) 6 rlk u r'ax 'ax 'a c \( r` \) \) ! ! 175u 75u 75u 75u 75u ! 0 bxn \( ! , th 1p ql ql p ! v v v v 6n ql q ui h , b \( b z h otc \( p e` , c \( st 3t p b sl z ! 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax2 `0 xgiz giz ro0 z sui mgiz 77` 76 ! 046 `x 1d sl bk qd m9 tp 8p 'u \? pw g ! ! `0 ! 2a \( 0 ! \) yu max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a 9h ah ah ah ah ay 2 g okz okg \) \) \) \( ! \( 2g \( f \( , ax 'ax ' max v c jrl \? lk 1d9 sq qhl rl9 uu 76igiz m1 \? wt 9h 'ax 'ax 'ax 'p , \) 6 4u 34u 34u 34u 34 ql mu 34r , \) \? , 2udk rl9 0m hi \( r , e ! ' max 'ax \? \( r` \) p x 75u 75u 75u 75u ! 0x xn b 7i mz ! , th 1p 2c 8 ql ql `4 ! 04 v v v v 6ej h 2 \( b z h n , c` 4e \) 0 c \( st 3ax 82 b sl h 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'au \( ! ! p ij g9v dk c8v fij fi 77` 7 , `x 76 l4 ! 046 `x 61d m9 rl rq ui 6k \( lk 0m , , ! 1s 4 x 'ax \) yx 'ax 'b j75u \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'y 2ah ah ah ah 3d mg \) r z nkz okg \) x 1 1 \( k \( \( kf \( \? 74x , ! ' ! g9 , 2tm hp , k 63q bq ui ml l 60m 75u 74xp p , `x ! ! gg4xp , ! p , \) 6 \( mr 3 \( 6ei 6ei 6ei 6ei 6ei z \? , ! c \? , 8 , e \( st 2udk rl mk 1d k \? 2 , ! c ax 'ax 'ax 6 ` xp l45u 75u 75u 75u 7 b x z gi ! `3 ' hs ql ql p ! 04 v v v v 6ei 6ei 6ej o5jq ah 2 \( 0t , ! y0 mc \( r , x sl z h 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ap xgiz mgiz gi 0t ! ! 38v 5e \? 3a 7 , `x l4 ! 046 ` rlk b v \( b rlk qd 75u x \) z giz giz gjeu 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' mg \) sdy 3dy 3dg \) r g \) r g okz okz okg \) r h8 x 1 2di \( \( \( k b \( ! \) 75u p a18 , pw ! hst \( r , c \( st id gg4xp l4 l4 ! 1 6 `x 75ugiz ` \) 24e \) 0 \( r , c \( 6ei 6ei 6ei 6ei 6ei pm \? 2 , e , q m45 18 , r4c \( lk 1d 2w 'ax 'ax p au , ! 75u 75u 75u 6 7 lx ! `3 ' ql ql p ! 04 v v v u 6ei 6ei 6ej 6n mp 0 , 0t , e w y24 ! hr , x b sl xb \( b 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ayz gjeu 75u ! 38v 3 \? 'ax \? 4u , `x sq 2 \( j v \? ! \( dm \) \? 62lk pm 75u 9z giz giyu 74xp n'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'g \) r g \) r g \) r g okz okz okj okz okz n x x 2di go \( b gg ! `0 x mgiz giz giz 8 , , y0 c \( 76 ` ! m`0 xgiz l4 \) 24e \) \( r , 6ei 6ei 6ei slk w \( p v ! 146 , e` , g 62lk lk 1d 2w 2gt \( r , ax ' max 'ax 'ax p , ! u 75u 75z \) 7ha1 p , 75u 7 , `x 76 , x ! 04 ! 05l ql ! 04 v v v 6ei 6n \) , 0t tl w w r gx 'a ! 82 b sl mb \( b \( b ` 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 75u 75u \) 25 \) 38v 0 \? \( ` \( ' \? ! 04 o`p 'q ! vq \? ej u u l q4 \? 51 2udk 75u 76 mgiz giyu 74xp \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'g \) r g \) r g okz okz okz okg 2 x x x x 965 1 k \? 'q mmk w 3a 6v qp `g \) v 75u 76 ` \( 12`0 x \) 24e \) 24e \) lc \( 6ei 6ei 6ei z h l 18 c \( st hm 62lk l mk 0m 2w vbdi 2 , qq ' 6 ! u 74xp 75u 7 ! 04 ! 1 p , ` 75u 46 `x 76 ` ! ` qv v ! 04 ! 04 ! 04 v v wl sl ql \( , 0t , pws , g \) 'a ! 82 b sl b z \( kj` 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aw5u 75u 75u 3a \) 4m c8v 38v n 0 p e \? 'r \( '89 ! \? w \? w \( '5u ! \( 4 o`p v v 6ei h 2ud hi 2g 75ugiz giz 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a ! 6um mz okz okz okj okz okz okz okz okz okg \) ra x x x x 1 k \( w \) , q gg ! ! `0 `80 ! `0 ' ! p 9 kr ` 75ugiz 76igiz ! \) z \) 24e \) 6ei 6ei 6n gi l , ! c 45 p , g 2ud9 2lk rl9 0m 2w \( gi 6 ! u 74xp ! 04 \( 46 ! o` c` 7ha1 6 `x 2 p ! u ' max 'a 2 ml \? 'l sl ql q uj u 6f k vx , `q v' , 8 ! w 'a ! 82 b ocl b 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax x 74x , c8v c8 \) ! u 9n 6'0 p \) di x u 4u ! \( 4 `4 , 9h uj v u q , pw rg vbf , c 75ugiz giz 'b gg5u \( 'ax b ! 04 ! 04 9z ` z okz okz nkz okz okz okz okz okz x x x x x e1 1 k \( \( b \? \( 2 \( ! `7b \? 2 , e ! 1e \( st 2g 61d9 1d k 62lk 'l ujq \? , f giz xgiz 6ei 6n \? sqk ti \( r4s ! hst hm9 2lk rlk rl9 0m vmk vmk vlv c z p au 6um 2di p , 3c` 7 o`p , ! u ! \) 6x ax 'ax 'a 3dg \? 'l sl ql ql v ! , v 0t wj gx 8 b ocl nh x 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a `p , `x x , ! n c8v c9k vl \) 0d \) vy \) 6'0 p' p nkjz \? 34u ` \( 3a ! , 9h uj v u \? n ! 8 ! o0i \( p ! hst k giz 'b \( , `p au 75u 9z \) okz g \) r mg n g \) r g okz x x x x x k \( b mmk w rs ` \( 2 \( 2 \( 0 ! \) z w \( , 43 c 1d k 62lk \? \( 1s \) 2 , v f giz ggb `9z j75u dle lc4 mr , 6n z g , l 45 1s c 3 62lk 'q \? 'q \? l mk 1d 2tm 2tm vmk 1 1 x mp , ` c` 7 o`p au mv 'ax \) ! 'q sl bql ql , ah 0va mh 8 ! \( 2 \( ocl kj h x 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a `p , ` x , ` fmk pd \) 0d \) 0d lk fx b \( \) o4u 34u 34 l v v \? gy \? n q ! ti di ! o0i ` 4 \( st 2di f giyu 75u 75u 75u 75u mg \) skz okj okg \) sdy 2 g \) r g \) r g \) r g x x x x x e1 1 \( bn g \( ! ! `7b sq \? 2f , u 1s \) 2 , hm9 62l j , 18 \) 2 , c \( r ` ! `0 \) z 75u '5u m34u , z ' sq 60m 9 'u4 pwe` , dm9 sq sl 'q \? 'qk rl9 1d9 1d9 b vmk vo sx ` k 1 1 1 , `p , ! , ! u 0 rl ! 'ax ' max 'az ay 2 z nkjznkj okz mv rlk 'q c , 9h uj 8 `k \( 2 x h ah ah ah 2 z h cz 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'a `p , ` x , ` r \) 0d \) \) \) ` \( r` \) j7 0df 34u , \? gy \? ei \? g hi 0 , ! i24 ! 2di \? 2 , fij 7ha1 6 `x 75u 76 ! ug \) r z nkz n g 2ah 'dy \) r g 3dy 2 g \) r g \) ra x x x x x x e1 1 \( k q \( \( g , ! u f ` ! `7ax 62lk 'l hi ` , 45' , ! o3 2tm \? 3t , 1 m4 , q 482 \( 0 ! \) z 74x , ` x , ` \( ` l 'q m9 ti \( y0 c \( st hm9 sq sl sl sl \? lk rlk rl \? fi mj \( fij c`p 70 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 3dg nkjznkj 2 61d9 rl sl sl sl 8 \( 3 x x x7 ! p ' ! p2 \( 2 zn mh cz h 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'as' 9f8 pl pl l 4 v , 3' , 3 q , 8 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax vmk s8v l , \) 0d \) 0d \) fyn fy \) \( \) \) n \? \) 24e 75u eu ! p 'q , 9hl 6ei 6ei , 8 , r4 ! o0i 2di \? 2 , c 2i rlk mgiz j75u 75u j75u , ! 75u b \) r z h ah mh 3dy 3dh ah 3dy 2a x x x x x x 1 \( n k 1 giz sl sl 2w , ! c 1492 , di 3t rl 3 , u 145 , pw 4 'b giyu 74xp p , `p ` \( \? , c 'q sl sl sl sq \? 'q \? 'l sl 77` 'j x f z z f dl 9 ! u \) 'ax 'ax 'ax 3dg mz n g' ! 4gb 60m 61dk 'l sq \? 'q , qt `k p 4t 1 ' ! \( 2 \( okz h cz 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 q , 3 q , 8 'ax ' , 3 q , 3 q 9f pne1t \? \? w \? w z \? 1t 'i 6ei4 '1t 'w \? mwt '1t 'i 6e pmfq , 0qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax c \( mr , c \( r \( u 0 \) 0g c \( ` \) n fyn dm \) \( ` ` \) 8 \) 24e 75uj9z rl ql hl 6ei 6ei qd 6 ! 8 ' , \( st 2f , c \( p ! , p xgg5u 75u 75u f giz 3a 75u \? sz \) 6 `x x h ah ah ah ah x x x x x x 1 \( p au 75u hm9 sl bq ah rl9 tm 0 5 e \( r , c \( st j , e , 2gt \) b8f \) ct 75u 7 \( sl , ! r4c \( st g 61dk 'q sl sl sl sl sl sl r 3c`p , ! u 94 \? 9 mhz 1d n x z \( r , c \( r , k sz \( vv ' max 'ax ah 3dg n gg ! 4 2ud9 sq \? lk rl sl rlk p 4u , 2d1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1' ! p ' ! p2 ` cx h 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 1f z6e1t 'w \? w \? w z bhjn 7ey `p , `yf9f9d `p 7ey 7ez mn 7ey 7ey 7ey 7kn n n bizwt 'i 4 9f , 3 qax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax vmk vo \( r \( u u , \) 25at ! a86 \( \) \) 24e 76igiz gg5u 0m 2ud sl q u 6ei \? ei d9 v c \( r , c \( r , ! giz giz j f giyu 75u 75u fmk hem p , `x 75u 75uj9z giyu 75u l4 ql z x x x x 1 \( w , 6 ` rl qhl q , lk 1d 60m hic \) 1 45' , e` , id , q1 0m ! 04 75u 75u ` , ' sl sqk 0m \? 2 , v u8 k \( c w fyn fyn g w b \( b \( b` mp , `x 75uj9z jjjjj c r , c4u 3 \( ! g9 sz f 2 z okg \) ! 4gb k vbtm m9 rlk qd9 1d9 sq , c \( r` \) 2di 2d1 1 1 1 1 1 1' ! j fh h 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax qq 8 i4 \? \? ghj bj nuy 7 , `p , `p 9 3w2tg q 1d9 pl p m4u 34u pl ! d9 1eq 7'2tm 2tm 2tm 2tct 3v9f0 7klj \? 1z4 pl m9f9fq 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ql vmk p \( u \? \( r' `fy \) 086 a86 k \( \) 25 \) 6 e 9 vmhm mk '4u 6ei 6ei sqk v , ! c 14 p c \( r , ey 7ey 7 ! p e mv e p , `p lv c 9v hem p , `x 9x ! a` j75u 9z giz ! \) z gjeu `4 \? , ! mc , ! 1 6um sl sl 6ei ' lk rlk 0m 1s \) 0 mc dm 6n h \( js c \) 11 0m \? 'qk 1d9 sq \? 'q \? b ! \) 75u 7 m5u ! ! ryn fyn fv mn fyn w w \) , `x 75uj9z giz c \( r 34u , ! dv zl ij 3d dk , y5v u vmk 2lk 1d k \) 0 \( 2di 2di m1 1 1 1 1 fhd \) 0d \) \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax ' , 3' 9 nei4 \? \? bj 7 , f9f9 3t f9d 3t 2 7 9 1fp ml 3 wmbxn bxn 0tq 4t 0tbxom wm wm 5 34 pl pl p 1eq \( f0 7kn nriz gk \? wt ' v9fq q , 3 q , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aq04 b ! 04 , c4r \? 4 \) n a86 \( 4 , `x 3 e \) 4m \) 0 76 gg ! `7b 'l p '4u 6ei sqk \) h' , u \) v mo ! p ' ! py 9 c8v , 9h mg9v , , ! u ! a` gg ! giyu `4 ql \? h \? b , \( r , ! 8 v u 6n q sl \? 'q pm 1s \) 2 , c 0m pm \( q 8 \( pm sl 'q sl sq \? 'q \? , 75u 3a a` ki 2d \( b ryn vmk g w w \( au 75uj9z giz gix ! tu \? 7u , u , cv hl sz \) 1 h , y5v u \( 1d9 \) 0 \( 2di 1 1 1 1 1 \) 0d \) 36 \) \( 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qq 9f9 ne1t \? \? wwhj km `yf9 3w2tg q 7 q 7 q 1d9l ! 34 wm 8n bs0t , 7 q6 g9 5g9v g9v g9v g9v \? q 7 q 7 0t 0tbxn bxn bxom 5 pl ! d9 2 9f9`p 7ey nriz \? w \? w \? wt ' m1t 'i 4 q , 0q , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'aq04 ! \( p \( fyn ! a86 p`` m` ! 046 ! u 3c`p , `x `k 76 g ! `0 ! , 3 , \) jl sl u \) hl \? ! vl \( b lk \) iv qp ' dy 9 sl sl g9v f \) 7s 6 2a \( 2 `0 giyu ql 4 v v v v mo u 6ei 6kv u sl pm \? 0 1e \( r , pm 8q sl sl \? 'q rl9 1dk ! 2b5u 75u 75z \) '6 `0 3c` \) 656 r \( w ryn vmk w w \) xgg5u 75u 9z giz giz gix ! 2e \? 7u c8v 7u hz , ' \( c8v fyn \) 25a mt `k \? 1 1 1 6f \? ne \) 4k 2ud 2w \? 3t g \( 1d9 c 2di 1 1 1 1 r0d \) 0d \) ! uh 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' 9 ne1 z bj n 7 9f3w2 7 9 1fpl 34u 34u 34 wmbxn 0t , 7 q 7 9v p , p p p p , m3 q , 3 q , 3` v g9 7 q 7 0t 2 bxn u34 p 1eq 2tm 2 3v9 , `uy n lj gizw \? w \? wt 'i 4 9f9fq 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aq04 ! 2b5u 7r \( \( a86 k p ! 76 ` \( 0 ! ! hr , , ud \? 'q \( b \( qk cl \? 'q sl ! 175u bp xgiz gg ! `5 \( 2 4 xgg5up l4 fql ql ql ql q5 ! u ' , m8 v 6ei 6ei l sl v l9 tm \? 2 , u 1e \( r , 8s , k pb \? 'q \? 'q p mn v ! ! `5 \) 2 ! \( b \( w ryn fvmk v mn fyw b \( b \( b` j75u xh t1 2e \? 7u \? 7u \? z , f 9 \) v4 hl 2di 1 1 1d9 1p 2gt 2g vbtm hi 3t e \( c 2di m1 1 1 f x r0 \? ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qq , 1f \? \? bj 7ex `yd tm \) q 1d9 1d9 1fpl 3 wmbxn bs0t , 7 q 7 9v g9v g9v p p p p p tq , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 p v g9v gq 7 q 7 q 4t 2 bxn wm4u 34u 34u 3l pl p 1d9 7'2tct 3v9f9d 7ey nuy n n bhj \? 1z4 9f q , 0q , 3 q , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 4 \) 7 m5u \? 4u ` \( ` \) n \( ` 4` \) n ! ! 76 `82 4e 2c , u , , 7e sq 2 \( b \( \( r 9 \) m9 2lk sl qd9 1dk 'q 60m \? 2 ! 175u 4p x '5u xgiz gg ! `82 \( 2 a` xgg5up l4 du ql ql ql ql ql q5 ql \( bv , c 145 1l h ah , sl qd9 1d hi \? 0 e \( r , c 3 k o` 9x ! l4 ! 75u 7 m5u 75u 75u 7 ! 04 ! 1 ` ! ! \) 0 \( b \( w ryn fyn fyn g w \( b \( b \( b \( 75u 24 \) sk mz na v5 2e 7u \? 7u \? \? z 3 34w 50 u \( ! l4 msu \? 2di '` 2 , hi 3t e \) 6 mt 3f c8v c8v 2di 1 1 1 x \) `j ! uax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 1f z5'1 z kl q 1fp4 wmbxn 0t 0tq 7 q 7 q 7 q 5g9p 3 q , p tq , m3 q , 3` , 3` p g9p p 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3` 9 7 q 7 mq 7 q 7 q 7 q30t 0t \( n bxn bxom wm 5 3l pl `9 7 q 7'2tct , `p 7kn bhj \? 1t 'i 4 v9fq , 0q , 3 q , 8 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax bsu \? r 34u \( 4` \( ` \( ` \( u 34u \) n fz0 m86 x 75u ! 76 `80 ! `0 \) 0 7 5c ! 9j 9 rl \? 'q rl9 \) hm 2ud9 sl rlk rl9 3 \( r , c \) yx 46 `x ! \( ! `7b gg ! 4h2 4e \) xgg5up l4 \( 2 m34u 34u 34u ql ql q 3` e 45 1 sl sl sqk 0m dm9 p g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g4 5u 625 ! \) 3` `9 7'2 mf0 75u 75u 75u 75u 75u 75u 4 6um '6 ggb \) yu mp ! ! mj fj kjznb \( b \( w ryn fyn fyn b \( b \( b \( b \( b \) zi 75u 76 \( 12a \( 2 \( 2 x 2di 2e \? 7u \? 7u \? z c ! 34u m5 10 3c` 75u 75u 2di ji jj tc \( p c \( st hm hi 3t \) ! n ! xv c8v c8v c5 h1 1 1 fij \) `j ! 7 ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 1f z6e m1 \? wwhjnux f9d tm \) q p4 wmbxlt , 7 9v p p p v g9v g m9p p , 3 q , 3` p p 9v g9 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 9v g9v tq , 3 q , m3` g9v \? 0tbxn bs0t 0t , 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 0tbxom 5 34 pl ! d9 1d9 1eq 7 qtm 2 3t `p , 7ey 7ez nrhj biz gk \? wt e , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? 5u \? \( r 34u 175u 4 ` \( ` \( 34u 1ku \) n l 0 75u ! ug '` '6 `80 ! `0 ' ! q18 ! hpp , fij 9 2 9 \) j \? 3 vmhm sq qd 2ud hi \( r , c \( r , gjeu , `45u 7 o` ! \( 2 `0 x ' ! \( 0 ! giyu ! \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \) 34u 34u \) m45 4 a865 5 0iv g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v \) 45 ! \) r8e , ! eq \( `p 9c 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max '6 g eup ! n8 fj h znb \( b \( w ! mw \( b \( b \( b \( b \( b \( 3 x 76 `80 ! `0 ! `0 ! \( 2 `7b ! 2b5u \? \? z c ! 34u 5 10 g 4 ! ! ! 1 \? w \) 25 m8 z7 0 \? 4 ! 2w ` \( \? rm \? 7u \? c8v c5 \? mz 1 1 fij fij f \) `j ! ! ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? q 9f pnei 6ei 6ei4 ' m1t \? \? w z giz bj 7 , f9d tm \) q 1d9l ! 3 v bs0t 3 q 5g9v p , m3 q , 3 p v g9v g p p p g9v g9 4t 0t \( n wm wm 5 34 v mbxlt , 7 q 5g9 4t 2 bxn u34 pl 3 v bxn bxn b wm wm wm u34u 34u 3l `9 7 qtm 2 3t 9f9d `p , m`uy 7ey n n bizw '1z6e pmfq 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax b5 c \( mr , c4u 75u b ` \( ` 4u 1ku 34u 34u 34u \) 75u \( 3` '6 `80 ! `0 ' ! q18 6c \( r , , 7 9 \) j l sl \? \( pi 2g , c 3t k vbf , ! hr , 2 , dm 3a 5u 75u ! 4e \( ! `0 ! \( 2 \( 12a \( 0 ! 'b \( 2 \( 2 ! p ' ! \( 234u \( 2 ! l \? \? tb g \) 5 0d \) g9v g9v g9v g9v mg9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g4 \) 0m75u \) r8e , q32 b u3l `9 7 f0 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ! n8 fij mh \( b w ! `0 ! w \( b \( b \( b \( b 3 x f `5 \) xgiz ` ! ! 175u 75u 7ha1 p'5u 5 ! 'b g \( dm 2tm \) 25at z5' ! q9 o2 , c` 4 ! 34u 34 chz \? \? 1 \) `h j \? 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax mf0 , 7ey 7ey 7 , 7ey `p 9f3t 3w2 7 9 1d9 1d9l ! 3 v 3 q6 g m9 7 9v g9v p p g9 7 q 7 q30t 0t \( n bxom 5 34u pl ! d9 1d9 1d9 7 q 1d9l 3 v 0tbxom wm 5 3l ! d9 7 qtm 2tg q 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 7 qtm \) q 1d9 1d9 7 q 7 q 2 9f9f0 , 7ey 7ey `p , `p , m`p , `p 7ez nrhj gk \? wt 'i 4 v q qax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax br , c \( r , c4u 75u 34u 34u 34u 34u 34u 34 mu j75u 76 g ` '6 `80 ! `0 ' ! q18 ! hr , , , 9 sl \? , 3t hm 2w vmhm 8r , c 0i \? 3t \? 2 , c \( st 2gt hm9 75u ! ! \( 2 4 ! \( 12`0 ! ' ! mp ' ! p ' ! p ' ! p ' ! \( 2 l' ! p z \? xs b d6 a945 \) mu 750d g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9u 0d \) 4 \) , ! d9 2 3t q \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'azf `80 ! ` ! j fijh \( b w ! w \( b \( b \( b \( eu 75u 9x ! a` gjeu 76igiz \) 75u 75u 7 ! fi 75u f ` 3 ! 07 v0 ! a` ! 2tm fz0 \) 25a rn \? 3tc \( p c 0i 0m 61dk ' chz c8v z c ! p fij fih j \) 0 ug 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax pl `9 1d9 1d9 7 q 7 q 1fpl pl pl p4u 3 wmbxlt 3 q 7 q 7 q 7 q 4t 0tbxom 5 p 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 7'2 mtm 2tct 3t 3t tm 2tm 2tm \) q 1fpl wm4u p 1d9 1eq 2tct , 7ey 7ey 7ey 7ez n n n n n n n n nuy 7ey `p , 7ez n lj bhj bhj kn nuy 7 , `p , , `p , 7ez nrhj gk \? mwt '1z6e pl 9f q , 3 q q , 3 'ax 'ax \? \( r , r 75u 75u \? 4u 34 mu 34u 34u 34u 34u 34u l ! o` ` `0 ' ! mc \( pi , ey , \? q \? 'q 7 8 c \( r , c g , di \( r , 3t g vmk ' 6kv 75u 9z 'ax ` 4 a` 9 1fpl 34u 34u ! p ' ! z chz chz chz c ! p ' ! p chz ch r \) , 1 9 6 mc \) b8g \) r186 e14di 5u 75u4 \) 0d g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v mg9v g9u u 75u9 25 06 lf \) 3 qgq 4t 5 p 1eq \( f0 'i0mfq ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aw6 `80 ! v j fijh nkjz \( b ! mw \( b \( b \( b \( \) zi f g 75u 75u \) 75u 7 m5u b mu 9z gjeu f ` \( ! fy \) `e \) 24e \) 1 1 p u \) 9 3tc \( r , 3 2ud9 1d9 sq ! 04 \? 0p ' ! z chz \? \? mz c ! p fij f 1j \) `h 1 \? 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? q 7 q30t \( n b wmbxn 0t \( n bxn bxlt 0tbxn bxn 0t \( n 5 34 `9 7 q 2 9f9`p m7ey 7 , , 7ey 7kn n n nux f3t 3t tm 2tg q 1d9 1d9 1eq 1d9 n n bhj gk \? 1t ei0l 6ei 6ei 6e pl pl pne mi4 'w \? w \? w \? 1t '1 \? wwiz bhj kn nuy 7ey 7 , `p , `p , `p , mf0 , f0 , `uy n lj giz '1z6e pl 9f9f9f9f , 3' \( r 34 mu 175u 75u 75u \? 4u 1ku 34u 34u 34u 34u 34u 34u` p `0 2' 51s c \( pp , e8 sl , 'pp , 'pp \? q 7 ! 8 c \( st hi k \( r , di hm9 1dk 'q u rl9 1d 9z g q 7 q 7 q 1d9 1d9 1g ! p chz chz chz chz chz ch mz chp ' ! ' c f2 , 3 \( f \) b8g \) r g \) 22di 2dm75u 75 mu 750d \) 0iv g9v g9v g9u 0d 5u 75u 75di 25 06 lg \) b8e , 3 \? bu , 9 mtm \( f0 , `p nwk \? w 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aw6 \( 0 ! ij fij mh nkjz \( b \( c w ! yn r \( b \( b \( r gix ! 4h2 `7b x 75u 75u , ! ! 04 ! 2b5u 75 5 9z \) ` hp 2 ! 186 a86 k u \) vo \( \( ` 2gt 3t g 2ud9 1dk 'l z xn , ` 3 ' ! z chz chz \? z c ! p 1j \) `j ! g 6 ! 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \) mb4q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 p 9v gq 7 q 7 0tbxom wm u34 `9 7'2 3v9 m`p , `uy nriz ghj bhj biz ghj biz biz giz giz km 7 , `p , f9d mtg q 2 3t 2tm 2 3v9f0 , \? wt ei 4 9f , 3 'ax 'ax ' , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 q , pl 6e1t \? \? giz bhj kn nuy 7ex `p , `p , `p , 7ey 7ey 7ez n lj gizw \? wt '1t '1z6e mi 6e pl v , 3' \( u 34u 175u 75u 75u \? 4u 34u 34u 34u 34u 34u 34 mu 34u k p aug `0 \? 51s \) 2 , c `p , sl , q m7 q 7 4 w 7e \) 24e \) 2 , hi k 3t hm 62l \? 'l sl o5jq ' \? w \? giz ghj kn n 7 , `p , 7ex `p , ch mz chz chz chz chz chz , ' ! p ' \) p 8n , 5g9p m3 r \) b g \) a945 145 14di 2u 75u 75u 750d \) 0d \) 0d \) 0d \) u 75u 62 lg \) b4q , 9 4tb vp \( 9f9`p 7ey nrhj q \( 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax , ! \) 6ij fj h nkjz \( b \( c w fyn fy b \( b \( 2'ax ' max 3c`p , , `p , `p ! 04 ! 7s sz \) f 'b mgiz ! 0 1 1 1 1 1 1 2lk u \( 2gt 3t g 2ud9 2lk sl 34w ! p ' ! z chz chz c ! p 3 1j \) `j \? 6 \) 2'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \) b8f \) b8f \) 3 q , 3 q , 3` 9 7 q30t 2 b u34u p 1d9 n lj biz giz \? w \? w \? 1t '1t '1t '1z6ei 6ei 6e m1 \? wt '1 \? wwiz bj nuy `p , `p , `uy n n bhj gk \? i0l 9f ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' mas qq , 3 9 l i4 '1 \? wwiz bj nuy 7ey 7ey 7ey `p , `p 7ey n n mn n biz gk \? w \? w \? w \? 1t 'i0l 34u 175u 75u 75u bu 34 mu 34u 34u o4u 34u 0 ` \( ` ! , ! ug `0 \? 51s \) 2 , mc sl \? 'q 7 q \) q 7 q \? u \? , , p k 2di 2g sq , 9hl hq , 3 9l3 q , 3 q , 3 q 9f9f q 9f z6e1t ' \( 2p chz chz chz chz c ! p ' ! p ' ! 34u k v , ' 6 \( 2 7 q ! 3 v bxlt , 7 , 3 \( f \) b g \) r g \) a865 14di 2di 2 mdi 2u 75u 75u9 25 ! 86r f \) b8e , 3 t4 `9 7'2 9d e 0qax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax vv pk \) h znkjz \( b \( c fyn fy mn \( b \( 2'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? 6um ! 04 ! \? ms sz \) ! wax \) z iv 1 1 , , , q 1 1 , 2gt 3t 2l qh \? l \? 5 p ' ! p ' ! z ch mz c ! p \) 0d \) \( \? \) \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \) b8f \) b8e , 3 q , 3 p 9 7 2 u34u pl ! d9 7 gk \? wt e , 3 qq , 1f9l3 mq q , 3 'ax 'ax ' , 3 q , 1f9l3 q ' q 8 z6e1 \? w \? w \? w z giz mwt e 0qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3' q 8 z6e1t \? \? ghj bj n n nuy m7ey 7 , 7ey 7ey 7ez n lj bhj biz giz gizw \? w \( u 34 mu 175u 75z 7u 34u 34u 34u 34u 34u 0 \? p \( ` \) `82 kp3 o` mp , `0 h \? 51s \) 0 c sl seq ! 7 \? 7u \? 7u 6 ! k 2di 0i hi 2g 2udk 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aq \( 2p 'hz , ' ! p ' ! p ' ! p ' ! p ' ! \? \( 7ez 7 , `yf9f9d \) q ! 3 8o 9p , m3 q , b8f \) r g \) r g \) a86 a86 a86 a86 \) r f \) b8e , 3` g \( om4 \? wt e 0qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax x w 0 fijh n \( b vmk r \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max ! 04 ! 7s ' ` ! p 56 g9v fi , , , , , \? 3t \( st 2l rg rl 4 msl 34u p ' ! p chp ' ! p \) 0d \) \( \) \( 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax , m3 q , 3 q , v \? 7 q 7'2tm \( 'i0mfq , 3 q q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qq , 1f z5'1t '1 z gk \? 1t ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 3 9f8 z5'w z bhj bj n n n n nuy n n n n nrhj bhj bhj bhj giz \? mw '1z6e pl 9f \( r , c \( r , 4 ! 75 34u 34 34u` \( ` \( `g 4 m` \( `g qv o`p , ! ug `0 h \? 51s \) 0 c sl sl c 7u \? 47 q 7 5 k 2di \( st 2g 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aq \( 2p 'h mz , ' ! p ' ! p ' ! p 2 \( 234u 492 ! um pl pmf z6e m1t 'w z km f \) q 3 q , 3 \( f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8e , m3` g9 `9 3u 0qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max fijh \( b \( b n fvmk vmk yn r \( ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax '5u 75u \? k vmk ' \( 'j g9v c j 9g h \( ` rlk rlk hi \? 2 , c \( r , c \( st hm9 2l qd g6 sl 31 ! p ' ! p \) 0d \) \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax , 3` gq 7 \( om4u p 7 7kn nriz mwt e v , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'as' q 9f ghj gizwt 9c 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' end part 8 14
subject roman bmp 10 14 pwiseman salmon usd edu \( cliff \) reply pwiseman salmon usd edu \( cliff \) distribution usa organization university south dakota lines 956 part 10 14 j u , um v bxn bxn bxn bxom u34u 34 pl ! d9 7'2tm 2 3t 3t f9f9`p , 7ey nrizwt 'i0mfq 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 34u 34u 3 wm 8n \( lt 3 q 4t 0t , 7 2 5 3l p4u 34u 34u 34u 34u 3 v bxn bs0tq6 g p , 3 q , 3 \( f \) b8g \) mr f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) r8f \) b4q , 3 q , p g9 7 q6 g9v tq , b8f \) r g \) 14di 2di 5u 75u 75u 75u 75u 75di 2di 2de145 145 145 14 m5 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 06 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 lg \) r g g9 msu 7ha1 '6 ` ! `0 `0 xgg5up , `p 0g spd \) c9n mv e ! ' g9v g9v en fyn fyn f 9v ! 05l ql ! 04 cdy 3dy ql \( 2 \( 2 ! 1 c8 \) j f` 6l md1 3 , , , 1 163 , se5 \) v ! rlk rl ! kr okz \) 6um 6um 6um 6 8 ! um 6um 6um 6um ! 8 ! mum h nm 6u ! `0 ! `0 ! `0 ! ` \? g 6 \) 1j fij fij fj khb \( 8v c9k 0g 0ek c9n 1 1 1 9 g9v g9v g9v g9v4e \) 24e \) g9v g9v g9v \) 3 , 8 145 18 , r4c \( pp \( np 6ei l6 c 9v x1 \) g92 , ud' ! nv n \( j \( ` ah h 'qk ! 4 v ! 1 fij j \( x um 8n bxn 0t 0t 0t 2 bxom 5 34 pl ! d9 7'2 3v9f0 , `p , `p , 7kn nrhj biz '1z4 9l0qax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 3l 3 8n bs0t 3 q 4t 0t 0t , 7 q 4t \( n b wm wm 5 34u 34u 34u 3 8n bxltq6 g9p , m3 q , 3 q , b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b4q , 3 q , 3` gq 7 q 7 mq6 g9p , 3 q , 3 \( f \) r g \) r186 e145 22di 2di 2di 2de145 145 145 06 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 lg \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r f \) b8f \) 9 g9v g9v dv 7ha1 xgg5up , ! 04 m5u 7 6lv fynv d1 0 ! q 1 1 e \) fyn fyn mg9 \) 1 1 6 ql ! 04 ! cdy 3 7g sf c8v ql p2 \( 2 \( 2 c 9 1'9 f` p \) n , 2 , 3 w9v e \) 2 , se5 \) v , 3 q , 3 g 4 ! `5 \) vo p3 r o' 6um 6um 6 mum 6um 6um 6um 6um 6um 6 \) 0 h nm 40 ! `0 ! `0 ! `0 6ub z h x \) \? 7 g 8d \) 1j fij fij j khb \( c8v vl \) 0g 0ek c9n mg9 1 1 5ds , g9v g92e3 \) g9v g9v g9v \? , , pwe` , , 9 bq ui md1 ! ue9 , u \) v v e 560 ' n c8v c9k \( ` kj qk q ahl 6n h sl mk wt ! ! i0 u 1e \) \) \) j \( , u tt 0t 3 mq 7 q 7 q 7 q30t \( n bxom 5 3l `9 7'2tct 7ey 7klj giz mw 'i 6ei 4 v q , 0q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? wmbxlt 0t 0tq 7 q 5g9 7 q 7 q 7 q 4t \( n bxn wm4 wmbxn 5g9p , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 \( f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8e , 3 q , p g m9 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 9v tq , 3 r \) b g \) r g \) r d6 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) mr g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) mb8e , 3 q , 3 6i ! p \? 9v g9v dv 7ha1 ' ! \( ! gg4xp 75u 7s ! k c9n f 1 ! p 1 1 g9 fyn fyn fyn f 9v g9v g9v g9 ! 04 ! cdy msl 8v sl 4 ql \( 2 \( 2 gn e \) 9 c9k 0d \) 0g4 mr 9 3 5 g83 q , 3 q , 3 q v q , 3 g9v g83 w9v e \) 2 kp3 \( 2 4e \( ! m` 6um 6um 6um 6um 6um 6um 6um 6um 6um 6 \) x h nm 6u ! `0 ! `0 \( kj cxd \) 36 9 1 \? g 6 \) 1j fij fj h c9k vmk 0d \) \) 6lv f 163 \) v n n n n ! p ' ! ue9 \) 24e \) 2 g9v g9v g9v , 3 q , 3c dp , ud p ql \( ` `x mz giz \? p \) v n c j \( jo v u h ml ql ql 6ejq cl 43 4e \) 24 u ! \) \) u r0d j n , ep p p p g9v g9v g9 7 q 4t 2 b wm4u pl ! d9 3v9 mf0 , `p , `uy n lj gk \? wt ei0l pl pl 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? mbxn 0t , 7 q 5g9p p v g9v g9 7 q30t 0t 2 bxn bxltq6 tq , 3 q , 3 \( f \) b8e , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , b4q , 3 q , 3 \( f \) mb8f \) 3 q , 3` g9v gq 7 q 7 q 7 q 5g9v g9v p , 3 q , 3 r \) b8f \) b8f \) mb8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8e , 3 q , 3` p , 3 q , b8f \) b8f \) mb8g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) b8f \) b8f \) b8e , 3 q , 3 q , b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) 3 q , 3 q , m3 \( f \) b4q , 3 q , 3` g9v g9v p p iv , v ! g9v dv m5 7 ! ! 75u \? ! \) v , ue9 ! p ' g9v g9v g9v de \) 24e \) fyn c8v c8v f cdy 07 sl sl sl ! 05l p2 \( 2 fmk f 1 , 5 , 1'9 \) 6l md1 3 , se5 \) v g9v g9v w9v \) 2 g q , 3 q , 3 r \) 6um 6um 6um 6um 6um 6um 6um 6um 6 \) x h nm 6u ! `0 ! `0m 6 \( b znh ` b0d \) ! g u z \? g 6 \) 0d fij j h ! fmk pd \) 0d \) 0ek c9nv1 163 2 g9v 1 n n n n n n ! p ' ! \) 24e \) 24e \) 24e \) 24e en ` x x x z giz gp 3dy g9v e n v v 6n q uj u h 0i \( , 4 pw w8 w mc \) \) \) \) 7 j n ! , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , p p g9v g mq 4t \( n u34 p 7'2 9d `p 7ex `p nriz 'i 6ei 6e pmfq , 3 , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax , 7 3 q 5g9v p v g9v gq 7 q 7 q 7 0t \( n bs0tq6 tq , 3 q , 3 \( f \) b8e , 3 q , p m3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , p g9 7 q 4t 0t \( n \( lt 0t 3 q 7 9v p , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 \( f \) b8f \) 3 q , 3` g9v g mq 7 q6 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 \( f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8e , 3 q , 3 q , 3 p 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , m3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3` 3 p 9 4tbxn bxn bs0t \( om4u p , v ! g9 ! \) 75u 7 m5u \? kj \( b7 ! q 1 fynv g9v de \) 24e mv g9 fyn vlv c8v ! 04 ! 07 sl 4 ! 6ql p2 ms \) c cv d1 3 , i4s , q 1 c9k 0d \) 0g4 p \) n md1 0 , , , , , v ' ! p ! `5 q \) 6um 6 mum 6um 6um 6um 6um8d \) 0d \) x h nb 6u ! `0 ! h x mum \? g u z \? 6 \) 0d fij 1'9 c8v fmk vmk 0d \) 0g spd \) s8v f 9 1 9 , u \) v 1 1 n n n n ' fc x x x x iz giz \? p p \) 7 3dy m' ! p ' ! p3 g92 y2 , id qh uj v v o5i u 6ei 6kv v o5jq \? 244 , , , p c \) jf 0d \) `j \? j n q , 3 q , 3 \( f \) b8f \) mb8e , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , p v \? q32 bxom 5 3l p 9f9d `p , m`uz nrhj \? w \? 1z4 v9fq qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 0tq 7 q6 g9p 9v g9v g9v g9v g9 7 2 bxlt , 5g9v g9p , 3 q , m3 \( f \) b8f \) 3 q , 3 q , 3` p , 3` p g9 7 9v \? q 7 0t \( n bxom wm v bxn 3 q 5g9v g9p p v g9v g9v gq 7 q 5g9 7 q6 tq , m3 q , 3` 9 7 0t 0t 3 q 5g9v g p g9v 3 q , 3 q , 3 p v g9 4t 0tq 7 q6 g p p p v g9v g9v g9 7 q30t wm 5 3l ! g2 3v9f9d v g9 c8v z 5 ! ` ! ! 75u 75u \? kj \( bxn bx \? 9v en c8v c8v fynv g9v g9 fyn c chz n c8 ! 04 sl ! 38v vl \) \( ` \( j 9 1 , i4s 1'9 c8v pd \) 0d \) 1 ' , q , 3 q v e 5 , ud' g9v g9v d1 0 1 5e9 g r \) 6um 6um 6um 6um 6ub0d \) 0d \) 0d cx h ! ! `0 6ub znh cxd \) \? wa \? u z \? 8d \) 0d g9v en c8v fmk pd \) 0d \) 0d \) 0ek c9nv1 1 1 gnv 9 0 ' ! p ' ! p ' ! q 9 0 ' ! q 1v g9 fyn x x giz gi mz gi p hey 7 3d ' ! p 8 , , , pwe` , idk l 6ei 6kv v mo v v v 6ei o5i qo 45 145 , c \) 0d \) `j \? mh ! g tq , 3 q , b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b4q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 p v gq 4t \( n u3 m4 `9 7'2tct f9f9f9d `p , `p , 7ez n n n lj gk \? 1t '1t '1z6ei 6e v , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 0t , 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 9v g9v gq 7 q 7 mq 7 q 5g9p , 3 q , 3 q , 3 \( e , 3 q , 3 p p 9v g9v \? q 7 0t 0t 0t 2 bxn v u34 wm wm v bs0tq 7 q 4t 0t 0t 0t \( n bxn mbxn bxlt , 7 q 5g9v g9 7 q30t 2 bxn b wm 8n 0t 0t 0tq 5g p v g9 7 2 bxn bxn bxn bxn bxn bxn bxlt 0t \( n bs0t 2 mbxn bxom 5 34u pl ! \( 9d 7kn gk \? ! g9 c8v 7 ms 75z \( 46 ! ! `0 ! \( 75u 75u \? kj \( bx mn b7 \? p pz gi c8v c9n fyn c8v c8v c9k pd \) ` \( ` \( n n i4s 1'9 c8v pd \) 0ek 1 , y52 v e , , , 0 1 mv g9 fynv d1 0 ' ! p , , , p `` 6um 6 8 ! 8 ! 6uh fyl j 0t u ! `0 6 \( b z h ` b0d \) \? \? \) 3p fyn c8v c9k 0d \) 0d \) spd \) 0d \) 0d \) s8v mg9 1 1 1 163 , 1 x1 1 ' ! p ' ! p ' ! p ' ! q 1 g9 c8v giz gi x x giz giz gi p \( r4s 18 , , , pwe` , id mk sl uj v v u rl 2f , 8 'u 5 1e \( st \) aj 0d \) 2 \? , 7 9v 3 q , 3 r \) b8f \) b8f \) r8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8e , m3 q , 3 q , 3 p 9v \? q32 bxom u3l ! eq 2 3t `uy m7ey nrhj giz gk \? w \? wt ei0mfq qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax , 7 q 7 q 7 0t , 7 mq 5g9v gq 5g9v g9v g9p g9v tq , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3` v g9 7 q 4t 0t 0t 0tbxn bxom u34u 34u 34u pl p4 wm wm v bxn 8om 8n b wm4u wm 5 34 v bs0t 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t \( n b wm wm 8n wmbxn 0t 3 q 7 q 4t \( n wm4u 34u 34u 34 `9 1fp4 wm u34u 34u pl ! 34u 34u 34u 34 `9 7'2 9d n lj 'i 4 9l0q , 8 ' mt \) x ! 4e \) 26 g9 c9 hl 5u 46 ! ! \( 2 4 \) 75u 7 m5u \? znkj \( jn bxn bxn \) y' ! pye wp \? p giz ! \( j c c8v c8v c 0d \) ` \( ` \( ` n n ! e \( , q pd \) 6l md1 3 , w9v , 9 1 1 , , , , , , , , u 6 8 ! 8 ! cm cm fyn fyn fsx j ! \( kj` cz 8 \? 7u \? 7u \? 8 j \( 8v c8v c8v pd \) 0g 0d \) 0d \) c8v fyn fyn fyn n 9 1 1 , y5v w \) ! q 1v en fxv c giz giz gi x x x x slk 3 \? 2 , c \) 0w m8 , , , pwe` , idk sl 'o 6ej 6ei q ah ml rl9 j , , c di \) aj \) 2 \? x 3 8ltq 5g9p 3 q , 3 \( f \) mb g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r8f \) b8f \) b8f \) 3 q , 3 q , 3` v g9 7 2 5 34 p 1eq 7'2tm 2tm 2tm \( f9f9f0 , 7klj giz bhj biz gk \? 1z6e v q ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? mq 7 q30t \( n bs0tq 5g9v g9v gq 4t , 7 q 7 q6 g9p 3` p p g m9 7 q 7 0t \( n bxn bxn bxn b wm4u 34u 3l ! 34u 3l pl ! 3 m4u 34 u34u 34u 34u pl 3l pl p4u 34u 34u wm wm wmbxn wm4u 34u 3l 34u 34u 34 wm wm wm v b wm4u 34u 34u 3 m4u p 7 q 7 q 1fpl pl ! d9 1d9 1d9 1fpl ! d9 1d9 7 qtct 0 nriz 9f , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax ! 4 ! 4 \? 9 75u 46 ! ug 4 ! \) z 3a ! 04 75u \? znkj \( jn bxn bxn dy' ! pye wp p p giz ! b \) l c8v c8v c8v c8v n j , v c j \( ` \( ` \( c ! pd \) md1 3 , q , 3 g92e3 , 1 1 g9 0 ! p 9 , g9v g9v4e \) fyn fyl cx h ! \( kj` \) \( z ! g x7 \? 7u \? n jj \( 8v c8v c8v pd \) 0d \) spd \) 0d \) pd \) vmk c8v c8v d1 \) 2 g9v4e 1'9 fxv c8v c p p p p iz giz giz mo hi \( r , e \? , 45' , ws 4 ! hst 2udk sl 'o q ml q , l sl sq9 j , , 8 wc di 6ij 0df 2 \? tg 9 ml mbs3 9p 3 q , 3 \( f \) b8g \) r g \) r186 a86 \) r g \) r g \) b8f \) b8f \) b8e , m3 q , 3 q , 3 q , p g9 4t \( n b v b wm4 `9 1d9 1d9 2tcv9f0 , 7ey m7klj gk \? wt '1z6e v q , 3 q 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 0t 0t 0t , 7 q 7 q 7 0t 0t 0t , 7 mq6 g9v g9 7 q 7 q 7 q32 bxn b wm wm wm wm4u 3l pl ! d9 1d9 p 1d9 1d9 1fpl pl pl `9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 pl pl pl 3 m4 pl pl pl pl p 1eq 2tm 2 7 q 1d9 1d9 pl pl pl p ml pl pl 3l p 1d9 1d9 7 q 7 9 7 q 7 q 1d9 1eq 7 qtm 2 mtct f0 7ez n lj ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aw msu 75u `7b giyu ! ! 04 ! 04 ! 175u \? znkj jjn bxn bx mn dy' ! wp p p giz ! b \( 2 ql p ! c8v c8v c8v c8v \( ` \( j n ! ue9 \) v e \( c9k 0d \) 6lv f 9 \) 1 , u \) v , 3 w9v , 0 ' 1 1 0 ! p ' ! q 1 \) v g9v g83 g9v4e \) cin fyn cx cx h ! \( kj` \? wa \? u \? 4' n n c kp c8v c8v pd \) 0g \) 0ek c8v c8v c8v c9n n n f 9v g9v n 1 1 5e9 , y52 g9v e \) e \) ! p 1v gn j c p p p q \? 'l , 9hl o5ih ! \) \) 0 c sl 'o q c sq \? 'q sl 6l q9 j , , 4f di ijf \) b8f \) 9l , 7 9p 3 q , 3 q , b8f \) r g \) r d6 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86r g \) r g \) r f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b4q , 3 p p p v gq32 mbxn 5 pl `9 7'2 9f9`uz giz 'i 6e pl pl 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax bxn bxn 0t 0t 0t 0t 2 bxlt 0t 3 q 7 q30t 3 q 4tbxn wm wm wm4u 34 p ml ! d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9l `9 1d9 7 q 7 q 1d9 1d9 1d9 1fp 1d9 1d9 1d9 1eq 7 qtm 2tm 2 3t 2tm 2 mtm 2tm \) qtm 2tm 2 7 qtm 2tg qtm 2tm 2tm \) q 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 q 1d9 1d9 7 qtm 2tm 2 9d 7ez nriz giz gk \? , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax ' '9 7s 75u 2 \) zi 75u , `4 \( 4 ! 1 m5u \? znkj jjn bx dy' ! wp p p giz ! b \( 2 ql ql ! 34u \( ` \( \( ` \( ` jj c ch n 1'9 c9k 0g 0d \) md1 5ds , y52 g9v , 3 g92e3 , , ud' ! p ' ! p ' ! ue9 0 ' ! p 1 1 1 , \) 2 960 ' ! p ' ! p ' 1 cx cx h 0 x 9 v g92 ' n n n n n fxv c8v pd \) 0d \) s8v fyn mg9v n 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 5ds , , , w9v g9v g9v e \) ! n 7ey lk 'q \? 'q \? 'l v q 45 1 m8 4 ! 8 ! hst g 62l l sl lk qd9 2lk 'l f , , 4c 3t ijf \) b8f b 7 9l 8lt , 5g tq , 3 q , m3 \( f \) b8g \) r g \) a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 \) r g \) r g \) r g \) mr8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8e , 3 q , 3 q , p u34 `9 \( f0 nriz gizw ' mi0l 4 pl 9l0qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? wm 8n bxn bxn b wm wm v bxn bs0t 0t 2 bxlt \( n b wm wm u34u 3l `9 1d9 7 q 7 9 7 q 7 q 1d9 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 q 1d9 7'2 mtm 2tm 2tg q 7 q 7 9 1d9 1d9 7 q 7 qtm \( 9f9 3t 9f9f9f9f9f9 mf9f9`p , , `p 3t mtg q 7 q 7 q 7 q 1d9 1d9 1eq \( 9d `uz nrhj gizwt 'i0mf , 8 ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' 5 75u ` 2 \) yu 74xp b \? znk jjn bx \) y' ! pye wp p p mz giz ! b ! \) l ql ql ! 04 5555 q 34u 34u 3 ' ! p 'hz ch mz \( ` \( ` \( ` c8v n 965 \) v e \( 9 c8v pd \) 0d \) vlv c9n md1 1 9 , , , ud' ! q 1 ! p 1 ! p 1 1 1 1 ' ! p 9 1 1 ! p 1 0 ' 0 ' ! q 1 d1 1 1 1'9 c8v \( ` kj j ` '65 \) 2 , 3 g9v e \) n n n , v c8v c8v pd \) \) 6lv c9n mg9v d1 1 g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v q , 3 g9v g9v \? 3t 2g rl \? 'q sl sl , 9hl 'o v qk w \( 145 y0 ! hr , 2l qhl q sl rl m9 tm 2tm 2udk sl , pw \( r , c \) b8f \) 7 9 \) q 1d9 ml mbxlt , , 3 q , b8f \) b8f \) b g \) r g \) a86 a86 a86 a945 145 ! 86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r f \) b8e , 3` gq30t mb u3l `9 7'2 9f9`p 7klj \? 1z6e pl v ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? 5 34u 34u 3 wm wm wm wm wm 8n bxn mbxom wm 5 34u 3l pl pl ! d9 1d9 7 q 7 q 2 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 9 1d9 1d9 1eq 2tm 2tm 2tm 2 7 q 1d9 1d9 7 q 7 `p , `p , `p , `uy 7 , `p , `p 7ey 7ez n 7ey 7ey 7 , mf9d 3t f0 , `yf9 2 7 9 p4u 34u 3l pl p biz gk \? 1z4 v , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax m5u 75u 2 \) yu 3c`p l45u 7 \? znk jjn bxn bx mn \) y' ! \? p p pz giz ! 04 b ql p p ! 04 u m34u 34u 3 ' ! p chz chz \? 7u \? z c ! 1 8v j n 965 \) v g8 ' dy n fl \) 0d \) 0ek c8v f 9 1 9 , \) v q , p ' ! q 1 ! p ' 0 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 g9v d1 1 1v g9v g9 n n n \( ` \( ` 7ey y' \) v g83 ! n n n n fxv fl \) \) 6lv c9n mg9v d1 1 g9v , 5 , 3 q , 3 g9v g9v f ! 145 \) 0 c 3t di hm 61dk rl \? 'q sl q ui 6ej u rl9 hic 145 18 , y0 c \( st 2g 61d9 sq , q ol h sqk w vbdi w ! hr , mf \) \) q 1fpl p4u mbs3 q6 g tq , 3 q , b8f \) b8f \) r g \) r d6 a86 a86 a86 a865 145 145 145 145 145 145 14 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 lg \) r f \) b8e , 3` 9v \? \( n b u3l ! d9 2 0 7ez gk \? wt ' , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 9 1d9 ! 34u 34u 34u 3 m4u 34 wm wm4u 5 34u 3l pl `9 1d9 1d9 1d9 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 q 1d9 1d9l p 1d9 7 q 7 q 7 q 2tm \) q 7 q 1d9 1d9 7 q 2 3v9f9d `p , `p , `p 7ey `p 7kn n 7kn n lj bhj kn nuy 7ey 7ey `p , `p 7kn n `p 9 \) q 1fp4u 34 pl p 7 q 7 qtm \( `uy n 'i0mfq 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? su \? 5u p aug \) yu , 7 ! 1 m5u bxn b7 \? p iz giz ! 04 sb ql p ! 04 ! u 34u 34u 3 ' ! p chz chz \? 7u \? z chz 1 f 9 fih ! ! qv fl \) \) 0d \) 6lv c9nv1 1 5ds , y52 g83 g92 , ue9 ! p ' ! p ' 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 ' g9v 1 ! p ' ! p \? n n n d9 1d9 \( nkjznkj \( ` ey 1p m' ! p ! p ' n n n c8v 0g 0ek c8v mg9 1 1 1 9 g9v g9v , ! i3 , ! 8 ! 8 145 145 1s \) 0 c 3t 2g 2lk sq \? 'l 6kv v o5jq qd 2gt ! f ! 18 , , , pw , c rlk 'l bql q sl kt \( st 3t 2ud9 f , ! hr , c` 4 ! hr , f3w2 1d9l ! 34 wmbxn 3 q 5g9v 3 q , 3 r \) mb8f \) b g \) r g \) r186 a86 a86 a86 a86 a865 145 145 145 145 145 14 m5 145 145 145 06 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 lg \) r f \) b8f \) 3 q , 3 p v \? mb u3l `9 \( f0 nriz gk \? , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q 1d9l ! 34u 34u pl p4u 34u 3l pl ! d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1eq 7 q 7 q 7 qtm 2tg q 7 q 1d9 1d9l pl p 1d9 1d9 1eq 7 9 1d9 7 q 1d9 1fpl ! d9 1eq 7 qtm 2 3t f9f9f0 , `p , `p 9f9d `uy m7kn n n nrhj bhjn n n n n n nrhj ghj giz \? wwiz bi `yd tg q 1d9 1d9 1eq 7'2tct f0 nrhj bhj gk \? 1z4 9l0qax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a c 5z \) p ! 175u bxn b7 \? p mz giz gi ! 04 ! 6ql ql `4 ! 04 34u 34u 3 ' ! z chz ch mz \? 7 \? z chz 1 9 fih x ay \) skz 941 \) 0g 0d \) 0ek vlv d1 5ds , 2 , 3 ! p ' ! p ' ! p ' ! p ' ! p ' 1 1 ! q 3dy 7ey \( \( ` \( ' ! p ' ! p ' ! p ' n n j c c pd \) \) 6lv md1 1 963 , ! i3 , 8 'u4 pw ! hr , c \( r , ! i3 , ! 145 145 1 m45 145 1s \) 2 , c 0i hm 62lk rl \? 'q sl 'o uj v v mk 0m \? 2 , u w 4 ! hr , g 62lk 'q sl sq , ! , c \( st 2ud9 sq 'lk j , c 3t \( p w2 1d9l 8n 3 q6 g m9p p , 3 q , 3 q , 3 \( f \) b8f \) r g \) r g \) a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 m5 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 14 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 lg \) r g \) b8f \) b8f \) 3 p q32 5 pl ! 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 9 1fpl pl pl pl pl p 1d9 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 qtm 2tm \) q 7 q 7'2 7 q 7 9 1d9 1fpl ! d9 1d9 7 q 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 pl pl p 1d9 7 q 7 qtm 2tm \( 3t 3t 3t f9f9`p , 7ez n lj giz giz biz bhj giz gk \? w 'w '1z6e mi 6e1 z km `p , f3t 9d 3t 9f9`p 7klj gk \? w '1t '1z6e max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'a p , `x 75z \( 45u 75u 7s k \( bx mn bx 1p ey \? p iz giz ! 05l ql p ! 34u m34u 34u 3 ' ! z chz \? 7u \? z hz chz 1 1 x \) x 2m f \( 2 \( 2 sn \( 2 c9 1 9 , u \) v , , ! p 960 1p ' ! p ' ! p ' ! p ` kjz x x ` \( 7 3d ' ! p 7 n n c c9 2l sqk tp \( r , c \( r , c \( r , c`8ws 14 pw ! hr , mc \( r , ! i3 , 8 ! 145 1 5 145 145 1s \) 2 , c rlk 'q \? 'l sl , 9h ml 6kv v hi 0 8 ' , e \) 0 c 3t hm9 sq sl sl , 'qk 3 y0 ! hr , hm9 3q o5ih ti k 7 w2 1d9 ml 8lt , 5g p 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 \( f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) r g \) r d6 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 e145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 14 m5 145 145 145 145 ! 945 145 ! 86 a86 a86 \) r g \) b8e , 3 p 9 4t 5 , 9 \( ` lj gk \? 1z6e pl q ' , 3 q , 8 q , 3 qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 9 1fpl pl p 1d9 1d9 1d9 7 q 7 qtm 2tm \) q 7 q 7 q 7 qtm 2tm 2tm 2tm 2tm 2tm 2 7 q 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1fpl p 1d9 7 q 7 q 7 9 1d9 1d9 7 q 7'2tm 2 3t 7kn gizw \? w \? w \? w \? mw '1t ei 6ei 4 pnei 6ei4 kn 7ez 7ey `p , `uz gizwt e mi0l pl pmfq 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 9x ! ! 75u 75u 7 m5u 7s kj \( bxn 9 \? p iz giz giz ! 04 ql p ! 04 5555 u 34u 34u 34u 3 ' ! z \? 7u \? 7u hz chz 1 f x \) skz 2a , n bxn \( 2 \( sn \( 2 \( 2' ! \? 0t wm wm \) w 0w wb g \) r \? ax g \) x 0w ' ! py 3d ' ! ! \( ` \( \( b \( b \( 40 \( b \( kj ! j mf 0 g 47 phd \) \) b8f ij k di 2di sq ! vg l \( r , c \( r , mc \( r , c`8ws 14 r4 ! hr , \( r , ! i3 , 8 ! 145 145 145 145 1s \) 2 , c m9 rl \? 'q sl q uj v u vclk 3 \? , 46 4c \( r , c \( r , 'l sl , l sl sq \? lk w 4 ! , hm 62l , 3 , 9 ! 3 8o q6 , 3 q , 3 q , b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) mb8f \) r g \) r g \) r186 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 m5 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 14 a86 lg \) r f \) b4q , 3` vp 'i0l pnei 4 pmf 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 9 ml pl ! d9 1d9 7 9 1eq 7 q 7'2tct 2tm 2tm 2 7 q 7 q 7 q 2 mtm 2tm 2tct 2tg q 7 9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 7 q 7 q 7 9 1d9l 34 pl ! d9 7 q 7 q 7'2tct f0 , 7ez nrhj '1t '1t 'i 6ei 6ei 6ei 4 z6ei 6e1t \? \? w \? giz bhj gk \? wt ei0l v9fq qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a 3a \) 75u 75u 75u 75u \? kj \( bxn 9 7 p mz giz giz gi ! 04 ! 04 ! 04 `4 ! 055 u 34u 34u 34w ! p 'hz \? 7u \? \? 7u hz chz 1 fij f x ay \) v5 3t z 2 \( 2 \( ' 0t wb gwm wm wm w \) 'ax 'ax 'a \) r \? 0t \) r \? w wi h nb 6um 6ub \( b \( mm 40 \( b \( kj ! jf 0 6 \? \) aj 2di 1dk rlk 'q , z 2gtc \( r , c \( r , c \( r , c`8ws 'u4 r4c \( r , c \( r , ! c \? , 45 145 145 1 m46 ! 145 c 0i 2udk rl \? 'l 6kv v 6n q , mc \( p e , c \( r , c \( st dm9 2l sl , 9h c sl \? lk rl9 tic \) 3 , ms 4 ! , hm 62l ! 1d9l m4u 3 8n , 5g tq , 3 \( f \) b8f \) b8f \) mb8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r d6 a86 a86 a86 a86 \) r g \) r g \) mr g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) a86 a86 a865 145 145 145 145 \) 2di 2di 2 mdi 2di 2di 2di 2de145 145 14 a86 lg \) b8e , 3` u3 ' m1t \? \? w \? w \? w '1t \? \? wt e , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 9 1d9 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 qtm 2tct tm \( 2 7 q 1d9 7 q 7 qtm 2tm 2tm 2tg q 7 q 7 q 1d9 1d9l pl pl `9 1d9 7 q 7 9 1d9 7 q 7'2tm 2tg 9 ! 34 wm u34 `9 1d9 1d9 1eq 2 9f9`uz nrhj '1t ei 4 pl pl , 3 q , 3 qq , 3 mq , 3 q , 1f9 l pl 6ei 6ei0l pmf9f q 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \) 75u 75u 75u \? 5u \? znkj \( ` mn bxn ' \? p p giz giz ! 04 ! 04 `4 ! 34u m34u 34w ! p chz chz \? 7u \? 7 chz chz fij fij fij f x \) 941 2m n 3t 3t \( 2 \( 2' ! p ' 0t g \) wm wm wm wb gx 'ax 'ax 'ax2 0w wm 0w g 6 \) x h nm 6um 6ub \( b \( 40 v ! `0 \( b \( kj ! jf 2 ! q ! \) \) b8 fij mi 1dk sq \? 'q \? \? l \( r , c \( r , c \( r , ! i3 , 8 14 r4 ! hr , mc \( r , e , q 4 \? 5145 1 5 145 145 c 0i 61dk sq sl bql mo v u l lk tic \) 3 , , , 8 1 p , c \( r , c \( st id9 sq lk rlk l9 tic \? , \) 0 ! hr , dm 62l rq 1fp4u mbs0t 0t , 5g m9p , 3 q , 3 r \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b g \) r g \) r g \) a86 a86 a86 g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r d6 a86 a86 e145 145 145 14di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di \) 45 14 \) mr8f \) 3 qg \( n n n lj gk \? 1t '1t \( 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 q 7'2 mtm 2tm 2tct tm \) q 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 q 1d9 1d9 1fpl ! 34u 34 pl `9 1d9 1d9 1d9 7 qtm 2tm 2 7 9l ! 34 wm wm u34 p 1d9 1d9 nrhj 'i 4 pl pl v9f9f q , 0q , 3 q , 3 qax 'ax 'ax 'as' q , 3 q q , 3 q , 3 qax 'ax q , 3 q , 3 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \) 75u 75u 75 m5 znkj \( ` \( \) y' w \? p p im ! 04 ! 04 ! 04 ! 34u 34u 3 ' ! p chz chz chz chz chz chz , e fij fij fij x ay okg 941 2m 3 32di 2di 2 \( 2 \( ! p ' ! px 'a \) x 0w wb gwm w wm wmxg \) r \? ax 'a ' ! p ax g \) x 0t wm 6um 6um ! ub \( bnh ij \) `j \? 9 \) \) aj sq \? 'q \( b \( b p oi l \( r , c \( r , mc \( p e \? , 45 14 pwe \) 0 ! 4s ! 145 \? 5145 18 , \) 0 c 0i 61d mk sq sl 'o6ej v v 6n q \? 0 145 18 , r4c \( st 2 , c 3t 2udk 'l sl lk 2lk l9 tic \) 0w p , c \( r , hm 60 ! 3 8n 3 9p , 3 q , 3 q , 3 r \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) mb8g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r f \) b8g \) r f \) b8f \) b8f \) mb8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b g \) r g \) a86 a86 a945 145 145 14di 2di 2di 2di 2 mdi 2di 2di 2di 2di \) 45 06 lg \) b4q , 9 4tb u3 7'2 , `p , 7klj \? 1z6e , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q 7 q 2tm 2tm 2tm 2tm 2 7 q 7 9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1eq 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 q 1d9 p4u 3 wm 5 34u 34 p 1fpl ! d9 7 q 7 q 7 q 1d9 ! 34 v bxn bxom wm wm 5 3l ! eq \( f0 n n gizwt e v9f q q , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax '5u 75u \? \( ` \( y' ! py 9 hs wp p 3m ! 04 ! 04 ! 04 34u 34u 3 ' ! z chz chz ch mz chz chz chz chz fij fij f x 941 2m f b 3 mt \( 2 \( 2 ap ' ! p ' ax 'ax g \) pt 0t wm 0t \) r g mx 'a ' ! p ' ! p ax 'a \) 0t w z ! um j ! ! `0 ! `0 ! v ! `0 \( b \( b znh j8 \) `j \? 9 \) \) aji \( \? 'q \( nsl p ' g uko 3tc \( r , c` 4 q , , pw \? , 8 18 , , ! 145 1 m45 18 , y0 c 3 61dk 'q l v v 63 \) 114 pw \) 0 c \( st 3t 3t sl sl qh cl l9 2lk rl9 4 ! hr , c 3t wmbxlt , 7 9p , 3 r \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8g \) r g \) r g \) b8f \) mb8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8g \) r g \) r f \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) mb8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b4q , 3 q , 3 \( f \) b8f \) b8f \) r g \) r d6 a86 a86 e145 145 \) 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 25 14 \) b8e , v \? \( om 5 p 1eqtct 3t f0 \? wt '1t 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? 2tm 2tm \( tm 2 2tm 2tm 2tm 2 7 q 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 7 q 7 q 1d9 ! 34u 3 v bxn b wm wm4u 34 p ml pl ! d9 1d9 pl pl p4u mbxn bxn bxn bxn `9 \( f0 , m7ey nrhj 'i 4 v9fq , 3 , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'au 75u 75 \( ` jj b7 1p ' f7 , w w \? p 3m ! 04 ! 04 5555 ! 34u m34u 3 ' ! z chz chz chz chz chz chz chz fij fij x h 'd \( 941 2m f n 32di 2 ap ' ! p ' ! px 'ax 'ax 'a \) r \? 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t 0w \) 'ax7 ! p ! 8 88 6x 'ax2 \? 0t 0t wi mh ! 6u ! `0 ! `0 ! `0 80 ! \( b \( bnkj \) \( 7 9 \) \) aji \( c \( mk viz \? \? n g' sqk 0m hi 2gt \( r , c \) , q 8 145 18 ! m8 ! 45 18 , pw q 45 1 5 146 , p , g 62l \? 'l qh uj v u ' rl 2f , u p , 3t 2di 2di 2gt l qd9 1dk qd \( r , c \( st ! 3 8n bs0tq 5g tq , b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) mb8f \) b8f \) b8f \) r g \) r g \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) mb8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b4q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , m3 q , 3 \( f \) b8f \) r g \) r d6 a86 a865 145 145 145 14di 2di 2di 2di 2 mdi 2di 2di \) 45 ! 86r f \) b4q , v \? \( om 5 pl ! d9 7 qtct nrk \? wt '1t ' , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? 2tm 2tm 2tm 2tm 2tm 2 mtm \) q 7 9 1d9 1fpl pl ! d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 p4u v bxn bxn mbxn bxom wm4u 34u 3l 34u 34u 34u 3l ! 34u 8n 8n bxn bxn u34 `9 \( f9d 7ez bizw 'i0mf9l3 , 3 qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? m5u \? \( b7 3d ' ! w w 3z 3i ! 04 ! 2tm 34u 34u 3 ' ! z chz c ! p chz chp 'hz chz 1e f x x x ah 2 z n h8 941 2m , nym 32di 5e9 'ax 'ax 'a mx g \) r gw 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t xg \) 'a \? w 0w \) \) x h 40 ! `0 ! `0 ! `0 ! \( kjz h ! jf 0d 7 9 \) \) aji z \( b ry ! w mk giz \? w \? sqk 1d k 2gt \( r , ! , , 8 ! 145 145 145 145 1s w \? , 8 145 18 , pwe \( r , g rl sl v 6ejq slk 0m 4c \( st k 2tm 2w 2di sl sl sl sl qd9 1d9 2 , 7 9l pl p4u wm v , 5g3 q , 3 q , 3 \( f \) b8g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) mb8f \) b8e , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 r \) b8f \) b8e , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , m3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 p tq , 3 r \) b8g \) r g \) r d6 a86 a945 14 m5 145 145 145 145 \) 2di 2di 2di 2di 2de14 \) r f \) b4q , 3 \? \( om ml `9 7'2tm \( f0 gk \? '1z6ei0l 9f , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? 2 mtm 2 2tm 2tm 2tm \) q 7 9 1d9l pl ! d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 pl 3 v bxlt 0t 0t 2 bxn b wm u34u 34u 34u wm wm4u 34u wm v bxn wm 5 3l ! f0 nrhj \? 1z6e pmf9l0q , 8 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \( 1p 9 h h , w s5 3d 3im 2tm 2tm 2t5 34u 31 \( 2 ! p ' ! z chz c ! p ' ! mp ' ! p ' ! z 1 x x \) 2m , nym ah ah \) r \? 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t p b okz okz 6um 6x h ! `0m 6um 6u mm 6ub \( bnkj fhd \) 0 9 u \) \) aji z \( w g z 'qk qd 2w , di \( r , ! ws , q 45 145 145 145 18 , pw , 45 1 m45 1s 4c \( st hm9 sq sl v u 6k h l , q18 \) 2 , c 0i 1d9 0m 2w vmk sl sq \? 'q sl qd9 1d9 w 2 9l ! 3 m4u 3 5 34u 34u 3l p4u mbs3 9p , 3 q , 3 r \) b8f \) b8g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) mr g \) r g \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b4q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , m3 q , 3 r \) b4q , 3 q , p g9v g9v g9v p g p p p p p 3 q , m3 \( f \) b g \) r g \) r d6 a86 a86 a86 a86 a945 145 145 \) 2di 2di 2di 2 mdi \) 45 06 \) b8f \) 3 p 9 4t 5 p 1eqtm 2 9d 7kn bhj ' mq , 3 ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q 7 qtm 2tm 2tg q 7 9 1d9 pl pl p 1d9 pl pl 34 wmbxn 0tq 7 q 7 q 4t 0t \( n wm4u 34u 3 wm wm wm wm wm wm wm wm 5 3l `9 7'2 9f9`p nrhj 'i0l m9f9fq , 0qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \( ` 7 1p 3im 2tm 2tm 2t5 34u 31 \( 2 ! p ' ! z chz , ' ! p ' ! p ' ! p ' ! ! 1 1 1 f x x x ah 2 g ok mz 2a x 1 h \) x 0w 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t 0w wb \? ax p2 z okz okz om 6um \) wb \? cz 6um 6 \( b \( b \( b \( bnkjz h ij b0d \) `j ! gq \? u \) \) aji z \( n fv mi giz sq \? lk qd 2w vbdi \( r , ! \) 24e \? , \? 7u m45 145 145 8 145 145 \) 0 c 'l , 9hl v u 'l , u 1 p , qd9 1d9 0m k 62l sl sq \? 'q sq qd9 2 nux q ! 34u 3 wm wm wm 8n bxltq6 3 q , 3 q , mb8f \) b8f \) b g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) 3 q , 3 q , m3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 p v gq 7 9v g9v g9v \? q 7 mq 7 q 7 9v p v tq , 3 q , b8f \) r g \) r g \) r g \) a86 a86 a86 a86 a945 145 22di 2di 2di 2di 25 14 \) r f \) b4q , 4t 5 3l ! d9 \( 9f9`p nrizwt 'i0l 9f9fq 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 9 1d9 1fpl p4u 34u 34u 34 wm v bxlt 0t , 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 2 mb wm4u wm wm wm 5 34u wm wm wm4u 3l ! d9 1eqtm \( 9f9 m`uz bizwt , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ey 7ey \? tm 2t mm 23m 2t5 34u 31 ! p ' ! p ' ! z chz , ' ! p ' ! p fij fij fp fij x dy 3dy 3dy \) skz n 1 ah 0t 0t 0t 0t 0w w 0t 0t wm \) r g \) r \? ! p2 z okz okz okz om 6 mum 6x j 0 6um1`0 h h ij fhd \) 0d h \? \) \) aji \( c n oi vmk sl \? 'qk rlk 1d \( r , ! hr , ! i3 , 8 145 145 145 145 18 ! 8 , p , g 62l sl uj v u 63 ' , e \( st g 61dk rlk rlk 1d 2tm 62l sl sqk rl \? 'q 0l pl f \) q 1fp 8lt 0tbxn bxom mbxlt 0t , 5g9p , 3 q , b8f \) b8f \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r f \) mb8f \) b8f \) b8e , 3 q , p p p tq , p p p 3 q , 3 q , 3` 9 7 mq 7 q 7 q 7 q 4t \( n bxn bs0t 3 q 7 q 7 q 5g9p , 3 q , 3 r \) b8f \) mb8f \) r g \) r g \) r d6 a86 a86 a865 145 14di 2di 2di 2di 2de14 \) mr f \) b4q , v \? 2 5 3 1eqtm 2tm 7klj \? wt 'i 4 9l3 mq q , 8 'ax 'ax qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q 7 q 7 9 1d9 1fpl ! 34u v bxn bxn bxlt 0tq 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 m9v g9v \? q 7 q 4t \( n b wm wm wm wm 5 34u 3 wm wm4u 3l p 1eq 7'2tm \( f0 , 7ez gk \? , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 9 7 \) tm 2tm 2tm 2t5 34u 31 ! p ' ! p ' ! p chz c ! p ' ! mp fij fij fij fij 3dy 3dy \) r z 1 z 0t 0t 0t wb g \) r \? w wmxg \) r gx 'ax 'a ' ! \( mokz okz okz okz okz um 6um 6um j ! 0 6um1`0 6um znh mh x fhd \) 0d \) `h 9 \? \( c mk ' sl sl \? 'qk rl mk qd9 1d 2 , c \( r , c \( r , c`8ws 145 145 18 ! 8 , , pw w w ! hst hm9 sq sl 'o6ej v u vclk w ` , 45 w ! hst di 1dk rlk qd9 tm 61dk 'l lk 1f 6ei 6ei4 9 mtg p 8o 9v 3 q , 3` v p g9p tq , 3 r \) b8f \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) mr g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r f \) b8f \) b8f \) 3 q , 3 q , 3` g9v g9v \? q 7 9 7 q 5g m9v g9p p v gq 4t 0t 0t 0t 0t \( n b wm4u 34u mbxlt 0t 0t 0tq 5g9v g p , 3 q , b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) r g \) r d6 a86 a865 145 14 m5 22di 2di 2di 2de145 06 \) r8f \) 3 q , p g9 7 q32 u3l ! d9 7 q `p nrhj gk \? 1t e pmfq , 3 q , 1f9 l 9f q 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 9 1d9l pl ! 34u 3 8n bs0t 0tq 7 q6 g9v g m9v g9p v g9v g9v g9v g9v \? q 7 0t 2 bxn bxn u34u 3 5 3 m4u 34u 34 p 1d9 7 q nrhj 'i 4 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 9 h h c tm 2tm 2tm 2t5 34u 31 ! mp ' ! p ' ! p chz chp ' ! fij fij fih dy 2 g \) skz okz n x 2m 98 h 0t 0t 0t 0t wmxg \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r \? ax 'ax 'ax p b okz okz okz okz okz om 6um 6um j ! m0 6um1`0 6um znh cz \) 0d \) 0 h ! gy 7 1 \? v q \? 'qk qd9 1d9 1d9 1d \? 3tc 3t 3tc \( r4s ! 145 1 m46 ! , , y24 ! , ! 8 c \( 'l qhl 6kv v u mk ti ` , 45' , ! hst 1dk rlk qd9 tm 61dk 'ax ' , 3 m9f8 pnei4 \? \? kl f3t tg 9l , 5g9p tq , 3 q , p 3 q , 3 r \) b8f \) mb8g \) r g \) r g \) a86 a86r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r8f \) b8f \) 3 q , 3 q , p m9v \? q 7 q 4t 0t 0t 0t 0t , 7 9 7 0t 0t 2 bxn bxn bxn mbxom 5 34u 34u 34 wm wm wm wm 8n bxlt , 7 9p 3 q , 3 r \) b8f \) mb g \) r g \) a86 a86 a945 145 14di 2di 2di 25 145 14 a86r g \) r8f \) mb4q , 3 q , 3 q , 9 4t u3l `9 7'2tm 2 3v9f0 , 7ez 'i0l 9f9f pne mi 5'1t 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax pl 34u v bs0tq 7 mq6 g9v p p p p p p p p g9v gq 7 q 7 q 4t 0t 2 bxn wm wm4u 34u pl ! d9 1eq 2tm 2 3v9`uz gizwt e v9f m9f9fq , 0q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 7s w c w 4 \) tm 2t mm 23m 2tm 31 \( 2p ' ! p ' ! p chz chp ' ! p fij fij fij f x \) skz okj okg 2m x ah 0t 0t 0t wb g \) 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a ' ! p b okz okz okz okz okz mok 6um 6um ocx h ! 0 6um1`0 ! um znh ` b0d \) 0d j ! 9 \? 7u \? b0d v' pb \? 'q rl9 2di 2di 2di 1d 2tm hi \? 3t 3t 2gt \( p q145 146 , 4 ! hr , c 3tc \( r , c \( r , c 0i 62l sl ah v v u vclk w \( , e \( st 2g vmhm 61dk rlk qd9 w max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qq 9f `p 9 \) q 1fp4 wm v bs0t mq 7 q 5g9p , 3 r \) b8f \) r g \) r g \) r186 a86 a86 a86 \) r g \) r g \) r g \) mr f \) b8f \) b8e , 3 q , p 9v gq 4t \( n b wm wm wm wm wmbxn bxn 8n bxn b wm wm wm wm 5 3l pl pl pl 34u 34u 34u 3l p m4u 34 v , 5g tq , 3 q , b8f \) b g \) r g \) r186 a86 a86 a945 145 14di 2 mdi \) 45 145 145 ! 86 \) r g \) r8f \) b8f \) b8e , 3 p v \? \( om4 `9 p 1eq mtct f0 'i0l 9f9f pnei4 \? \? wt e9f q q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? 8n bxn bs0tq 5g9v g9p 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3` tq , 3 q , 3` p g m9v g9v gq 5g9 7 q 7 0t \( n b wm u34u pl `9 1d9 7 qtm \( 9f9 mf0 gk \? 1z6e pl pmfq , 0qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax ys tm 2tm 23m 2tm 31 \( 2p ' ! p ' ! z chz chz , ' ! mp fij fij fij f 3dg okj x 1 ym 1 6 x ah 0t wm wm \) r gx 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax7 ! p ' ! p ! \( okz mokz okz okz okz okz okz okz okz ocx h ! 0 6um1`0 ! ` \) `h 9 \? gq \? u 1 \) 1j fvmk v' sq \? lk 2di 2di 2d mi 2di 1d 2tm hi 2gt 2di 2di \( r , e 4 \? 518 , , y0 c \( st di 3t \( st g sq sl bq uj v v u l lk 3 ' , e \( st 2g 61dk p ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' 3w2 1d9l 34 wmbxn , 5g9p , 3 q , 3 \( f \) b8g \) r g \) r186 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 lg \) r g \) r g \) r f \) b8f \) b4q , 3 p 9v \? q 4t 2 b wm4u p ml pl pl 34u 3 wmbxn wm 5 34u 34u 34u 34u 3l `9 1d9 1d9 ml pl p4 pl ! 3l p pl p4 v , 7 9p 3 q , 3 \( f \) b8f \) b g \) r g \) mr g \) r g \) a86 a945 145 145 145 145 145 06 a86 \) r g \) r g \) r8f \) mb8e , 3 q , 3` g9 4t \( n b u34 nwk \? 1z6e 'w 'i0l v , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax bxn bs0tq 5g9v tq , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , m3 q , 3 q , 3 q , p p v g9v g9v g9v g9 7 q 7 2 b wm u34 p 1eq 7 qtm \( 9f9`uz \? 1t , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qq , 3 , 3 , 8 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'z 2tm 23m ! mp ' ! p ' ! z chz chz , ' ! p fij fij fij f 3dz nkz okg 2a x 1 tti 1 6 x ah 0t wb g \) r g \) r g \) r \? ax 'ax 'ax7 ! p ' ! p ' ! p z okz okz okz okz okz okz okz okz okz sz h ! m0 6um1`0 ! `0m 6nh ` \) j ! gy 7 \? 7u \? b0d \) z \( w fvmk v m' sq 2di 2di 2di 2di tm 2tm hi \? 3t 2di 2di \( r , ! i3 , 8 1 m8 , pwe` , c \( st 2di 2gt 3t hm9 sq qh v v 6ejq sl mk 0m ' , ! o0i k 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max ' , 1f pne1 \? km `yf9f9d 3w2tg q p4u 3 8lt , 7 9v tq , m3 \( g \) r g \) a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86r g \) r g \) r f \) b8f \) b4q , m3 p 9v \? 2 u34 pl ! d9 1d9 1d9 1d9l pl pl 34 p 1d9 1d9 1d9 1eq 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9l pl pl p 1d9 pl p4 wmbxlt , 5g tq , 3 r \) b8f \) b8f \) b8g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) a86 e145 145 145 145 14 m5 145 14 a86 a86 a86r g \) r8f \) b4q , 3 q , 3 q , 3` gq 4tb 9e 'i0l pl i4 \? \? w \? wt q 'ax 0tq 5g9p tq , 3 q , m3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , p v g9v g9v g p 9v g9p m9v gq p 7 qtm 2tct f9d 7kn gk \? wt 'i 4 9f q , 0q , 8 ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qq , 3 q , 3 q 9f pl 6e , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'au \( 2p ' ! p ' ! p 'hz chz chp ' ! p fij ! p fij f 3d z 1 1 tti 1 6 x ah 0t \) r ah \? ax 'ax 'ax 'a ' ! p ' ! p ' ! p ! \( okz okx sl z okz okz okz mokz okz sl cx h ! 0 6um1`0 ! `0m 6nh ` \) \? gq \? u 1 \? \) 28 fj z \( w fvmn rdi 2di 2di 2di 2di tm 3t 2di 2gt \( r , c`8ws 18 , pwe` , c 3t 2di 2di 0i hm9 'l , mo v 6ei 6n h sqk 0m 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 1f pnei km `p , 3w2 mtm \) q 1fp4u mbs3 9p , 3 \( f \) b g \) r d6 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 \) r g \) r f \) b8f \) 3 q , 3 p v \? q32 4 p 1d9l ! d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 7 q 7 q 7 q 2 3w2tg q 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9l pl 3 v bs3 9p , 3 q , 3 q , b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) r g \) r g \) a865 145 145 145 145 145 145 ! 86 a86 a86 \) r f \) b8f \) b8f \) mb8f \) b4q , 3` gq32 b u3 7 '1z6e1t '1t '1 '1z6ei0l v mq 5g9p 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , p p p p , 3 q , 3 q , 3` 9 `9 7 qtm \( 9f9`uy nrhj gizwt ' mi 4 v9f9f q q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as ' , 3 q , 3 9f9f pl z6e1t '1t '1z6ei0l v , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax `p ' ! p ' ! p chz chz chp ' ! mp fij ! p ' ! ij f \( 1 1 tti 1 6 x ah ah ax 'ax 'ax 'ax p ' ! p ' ! p ' ! p \( okz ocl sl sl z okz okz okz ocl sl sx h ! 0 6um1`0 ! `0m 6nh ` \) \? 7u ! b0d \) \) aj j khb \( w fvmn 62di 2d mi 2di tm 2w 3t di 2gt \( r , c`8ws 14 , y0 c \( st di 2di 'l u sl 'qk 3 ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qq 9f pnei4 ' m1 z bj n n n n 7 , `yf9f9f9 3w2 1fp , b8f \) r g \) r d6 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 lg \) r f \) b8f \) 3 q , 3 p p gq32 5 3l p 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9l `9 1d9 2tct f9f9 2 mtg q 1d9 1d9 7 q 1d9 7 q 7 q 7 9 1d9l p4u 3 wmbs3 q6 tq , m3 q , 3 \( f \) b8f \) b8f \) r g \) r g \) r g \) a86 a865 145 145 145 145 06 a86 a86 a86 \) r g \) r f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b4q , v \? u3l ! eq 0 gk \? wt ' m1t '1t '1t \? \? wt e pl p 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , m3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 p 9v \? \( om 5 p 7 q 2 3t giz \? w '1z6ei 6ei 4 9l3 q 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 3 q , 3' q 8 pl z6ei 5'1t '1 \? wt '1t 'w \? w \? w 'i 6e v , 8 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'a khz chz , ' ! p ' ! ij ! p ' ! ij f 3dg \( 1 2m 3t tti 1 6 x 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax7 ! p ' ! p ' ! p ' ! p b okz sl sl sl sn okz okz okz ocl sn ocx j um 40 ! `0m 6nh yj \) 36 9 7 \? \) 0df ij j nb \( c n fvmn v 62di 2di 2di \) ct 0i \? 3tc \( r , ! i3 , 8 1 m46 , 4 ! hr , 0i k vmk 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'as' q 9f9 ne1t '1t '1t 'w z bhj bj nuy `yd 1d9 m4 , 3 \( f \) b8g \) r g \) r186 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 lg \) mr f \) b8f \) 3 q , 3 q , 3` gq32 u34 pl ! d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 7'2 mtct 3t 3t f3t tg q 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 7 q 7 q 1d9 1d9 1fpl 3 v bs3 q 5g9p , 3 q , 3 \( f \) b8f \) b8g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r d6 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r8f \) 3 q , v \? \( oml ! gk \? 1t '1t \? \? wwiz \? w , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , m3 q , b8f \) b8e , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3` p p p tq , v g9 7 q30t \( om4 pl ! d9 \( 0 nriz \? 1t '1t ei 6ei 4 9f q q , 3' q ' mq 9f9f9f pl i4 'wwiz ghj bhj bhjnuy nriz giz ghj bhj biz \? mw 'i0l 9l3 , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , k ! ij ! p fij f3 3d mg nkz 3d x 1 2di 3v 1 6 x ah 'ax 'a mx 'ax 'ax 'a ' ! p ' ! p ' ! p ' ! p b okz sl \( 2 \( 2 sl okz okz mokz ocl z okz cz h 40 ! `0m 6nh z \) ! gq 7 1 \? \) 28 fijh nb \( c n fvmn rdi 2di 2di 2di \) ct 3t 2 , c` 4 q 4 \? 5145 8 , y0 c 0i k vmk 2ud sl 6kv h 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' q 8 pl i0l mi 6ei4 '1 \? km 3 r \) b8f \) r g \) r g \) r d6 a86 lg \) a86 a86 a86 lg \) r g \) r g \) r f \) b8f \) 3 q , 3 p 9v \? \( om4u pl ! d9 1d9 1eqtm 2tm 2tm 2tm 2tct 7ey 7 , f9f9 2 7 q 1d9 1d9 7 q 1d9 1d9 1d9 1fpl ! 34 5g9p , 3 q , 3 r \) b8f \) mb8g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r d6 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86r g \) r g \) r f \) b8f \) 3 q , 3` g u3l ! g2 0 '1t '1t \? \? giz gi , m3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 \( f \) 3 \( f \) b8e , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , p p g9v g m9v g9v \? q 7 0t \( n wm 5 3l ! lj giz gk \? w 'i 6e z6e v q q , 3 qq , 1f pne1t 'w z kn 7ey 7kn nuy `yd 9f9`p bhj bhj bj nuy 7kn bhj gizwt 'i 4 q , 0qax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 1f pne1 z f3 3dg 3d 1 v 1 6 z ag ok ah 'ax 'ax7 ! p ' ! p ' ! p ' ! p ' ! \( ' ! p ' ! \( 2 b okz sl \( 2 \( 2 \( 3l z okz okz sl z okz ocx h ! ! `0m 6nh xd \) \? g u \? hd \) 28 fijh nb \( c n fvmn rli 2di 1d m9 2di 0m k , gt 3t 3t \( r , e \? , 8 1 5 145 145 18 , r4c \( st 2g 60 ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax q , 3 q , 1f9f9f z5'1t \? \? wwhjnux \( 9l 8lt , 4 3 q , mb8f \) b8g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r8f \) b8f \) 3 q , m3` g9 pl pl p 1d9 7'2tm 2tm 2tm 2 , `p m7kn n 7ey 7ey `yf9 3t tm \) q 7 q 7 q \) q 7 q 1d9 pl p4 wm mbs3 9v tq , 3 q , 3 q , b8f \) b8f \) b g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 \) a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 lg \) r f \) b8f \) b4q , 3 p v p 7'2 9d \? w \? , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , m3 q , 3` v gq 4t q 4t 0t 2 bxom 5 pl `9 \( f0 , 7kn biz 'i 6e pl pl ne1 \? wwhjnux 2tct f0 , `p , 3v9f0 n n nrhj bhjn n 7kn nuy 7ez n lj bizw '1z6ei0l ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'as' 9 ne1 z kn 7ex f3w2 4 3 gd 1 2di 3t v 32di 1 6 z z okg ah 'ax 'a ' ! \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( m2 \( 2 \( 2 b okz ocl sla \( 2 \( 2 sn okz okz sl z okz okx j 6nh xd \) \? ! b0d \) \) b8 fijh nb ryn v \? 'qk rlk rlk rlk 1d9 0m 2w vbdi \? 3t 3tc \( r4s ! 145 18 ! m45 145 146 ! 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3' 9 ghj bj m7 , mbs0tq 5g9p , 3 r \) b8f \) b8f \) b8g \) r8f \) b8f \) r g \) r g \) b8f \) \) r g \) r g \) b8f \) b4q , 3 p 9 7 0tbxom wm4u 34 p 7'2tct 3t 3w2tm 2 3t 9f9`p n lj ghj bhj kn 7ey `p , f9f9f3t tg q 7'2 7 q 1d9 1d9 p4u g9p , 3 q , 3 q , 3 \( f \) b8f \) b8f \) b g \) mr g \) r g \) a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 lg \) r g \) r g \) r g \) a86 \) r g \) r8f \) mb8e , 3 q , v \? \( om4 `9 \? 1 , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , m3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 p 9v \? 0t \( lt 0t 0t 0t \( n bxn 5 3 ml `9 nrhj \? 1t '1 \? bj 7 , 1fpl ! d9 7'2tm \( 3w2 \( f0 7klj bhj kn nuy 7kn nuy 7ex `uy m7ey n lj gk \? 1z6e v , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qq 8 i4 \? \? bhjnux f3w2 m3 r \) b g \) a945 22di 2d1 98 h n h x \( 2 z okz okz okz \( 2 \( 2 b okz okx sl r \( 2 sn okz mokz sl sn okz okz cz h nm 40 6 \( h xd \) \? \) 0d \) \) b8 fijh nb ryn l q \? 'q \? 'q \? 'qk rl9 1d9 tm hp 2di 2 , 145 ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'as' z ex `p 9 \) q 5 8n 0tq 7 9v tq , 3 q , b8f \) mb8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8e , 3 q , v gq 7 2 bxom wm wm 5 , 9 7'2tm 3t 7kn biz \? w \? ghj bhj bj 7ex `p 2tm 2tm \) q 7 q 1d9 p4u 8n , 7 9p m3 q , 3 q , 3 r \) b8f \) b8f \) b8g \) r g \) r g \) a86 a86 a86 a86 a86r g \) r g \) mr g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) b8f \) 3 q , 3 p 9v tb u3l `9 7'2 9f9`uy gi , m3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 \( e , 3 q , 3 q , 3` g9 4t \( n bxom v bxn mbxn v bxn b wm4u pl ! eq 7 nriz gk \? 'w \? wwhj kn 7 9f3t tg 9l ! 3 wm wm4 `9 7 q 2 0 biz bhj kn n n m7ey 7ey n n n n n n n nrizw 'i0mfq 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as f f3w2 1fp4 , 3 \( f \) 22di 2dm75u 75u 750d g9v g9v mg9v h x 97 ! p2 \( ocl sl sl sl okz \( 2 \( 2 z okz sl \( 3l sn okz okz sx cx okz okz cz h nm 40 ! \( h xd \) \? \) 0df \) aj fij j nb ryn v sl \( b sl q \? lk qd9 0m 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a 0 i4 \? \? `yf9 7 9l 8n mbxn , 7 q 7 9v 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 r \) b8e , 3 q , 3 \( f \) b8f \) 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , m3 p v gq30t 0t \( n b wm wm wm 5 3l ! d9 7'2tct 3t 3t 3v9 mf0 nriz \? w \? w '1t 'w \? wwiz bhjn `p 9f3t 3w2tm \) q 7 q 1d9 1fpl 8n 3 q6 g p tq , 3 q , 3 \( f \) b8f \) b8g \) r g \) r186 a86 a86 a86 a86 \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r f \) b8f \) b8f \) 3 q , 3 q , v \? \( om4 `9 7'2tm \( f0 , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 r \) 3 q , 3 q , v g9 7 \( n bxn bxn 2 bxom u34u u34 u3l p 1eq \( f0 7klj gk \? m1t '1t \? \? `p 9 3w2tg 9l ! 0t 2 b u3l ! eq \( 9d m`uz n lj kn n n nuy 7klj ghjn n n n n n n n gk \? , 0q , 8 ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax q9 ne1 z km ! 34 , 3 \( f \) r d65 22dm75u 75u 75 m0d \) g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v sl sl okz 2 \( 2 \( 2 z okz ocl sl sn okz okz sx cx z okz h ! ! ukj ! j \) \? \? \) 28 fij fij j nb ryn v mmk ' ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 1f \? \? bj nux f9d \) q 1fp4u 34u mbxn bxlt , 5g p , 3 q , 3 q , 3 r \) b8e , m3 q , 3 r \) b4q , 3 p p p g9 7 wm4u 34u 3l 34u m4u 34u 3 ml ! d9 \( 3t \( 3t f9d 7klj gizw \? w \? 1t ei 6ei4 \? \? wwiz giz bhjn `p 9f9d 3t 2tg q 1fpl v 0tq 7 q6 g9p 3 q , m3 \( f \) b8f \) b8g \) r g \) r g \) a86 a86 a86 a86 lg \) r g \) r8f \) b8f \) b g \) b8f \) mb8f \) b8f \) b8f \) 3 q , 3 q , p gq 6 p 7 , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 \( e , m3 q , 3 p p g9v \? q 4t 0t 0t 2 b wm 5 pl 34u 34u 3l `9 7'2 3v9f0 , 7ez nrizw \? w z km `p 9f3w2 7 q 1fpl mbs0t \( n bxom m4 `9 1eq \( 3v9f0 , `p , 7ey 7ey n n biz giz bhj bhj bhj giz \? 1t e pmf9l0q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 1f9 ne1 , b8g \) r186 m5 \) 2u 75u4 \) 0d \) g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v mg9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v mg9v p p 1d p z g9v g9v g9v g m4w fq 9f pl 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'q 8 i4 \? \? km `yf9 2 7 9 pl ! 3 8n 3 m9v 3 q , 3 q , 3 p tq , 3 p p p 9v g9v g9v g9 7 wm4u 3 m4u 3l ! 34u 34u 34u 3l `9 1eq 3v9f9f9 3t 9f9`p 7kn gizwt ' m1t 'i 6e pl 5'1t \? \? w \? ghj bhjnuy `p , f9f9f9d 2 1d9l 3 v bs0tq6 g9v tq , 3 q , 3 q , b8f \) b8g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) a86 \) mr g \) r g \) r8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8e , 3 q , 3` g9 4tb u3l ! e , m3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , p v g9 7 q 7 u34 `9 7 q 1d9 7 q 7'2 7ey 7ey nrhj giz bj nux f3t tg q 7 9 ! 3 8lt 3l ! d9 7'2tct 3t , `p , 7kn giz giz giz giz biz \? w \? \? w 'i 4 v9fq , 1f9 l pl 9f9fq , 2'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qq \? \? kl 7 9 tq , b d6 e14di 5u 750d \) g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v mg9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v mg9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v mg9v g9u u 625 ! \) 3 \? b ` ` 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? 9 7 9 9l ! 34 7 9p p 3 p v g9v g9v \? q 7 q 7 \( n mbxn 0t 2 bxom 5 pl ! d9 pl p4u 34u 34 p 1eqtm \( f0 , 7ey m7ex 7ez n n n lj gk \? wt '1t ei0l pl pl z6e1t \? \? w \? wwhj kn m7 , `p , f9f9 3w2 7 9l ! 34 wmbs3 q6 g9v p 3 q , 3 q , 3 \( f \) b8f \) mr g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) mb8f \) 3 q , 3 q , v \? \( , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 p p p , p 9v g9v \? b wm4 `9 7 q 2tm 2 9f9`uy n n nuy `p , `p , 7ez 7ey 7ex mf9d tm 2tg 9 \( n p 1d9 q 7 q 7'2tm 2 3t mf0 7ey nrizw \? \? giz gizw '1t \? \? wwiz gizw \? 4 pl pl pl pl 9f ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' mas' kl \( 9l \) b d65 22dm75u 75u4 \) g9v g9v g9v g9v mg9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v mg9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v mg9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9u , ! nrk \? max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax z km `yf9 \) q p4 v bs0tq 5g9p , 3` p m9v g9 7 2 bxn bxn bxom wm wm 5 3l `9 1fpl pl p 1d9 1fp ml p 1eqtct f0 7ey 7ey nuy nrhj giz \? 1t '1z6ei0l pl v9f m9f8 pl 6ei 5'1 z bj nuy `p , `yd tm 2 7 q 1fpl mbs3 q 5g m9v p , 3 q , 3 q , b8f \) b8f \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) b8f \) mb8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b4q , 3` , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3` m3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3` g9 4t \( n u3l ! d9 7 qtct f0 , 7kn n n nuy `p 9 `p , `yf9 3t tm 2 7 q pl 34 wm u34 p 1eq 7 q 7 9 pl `9 7 q \( 9d `p \? w \? w \? wwiz gk \? giz bhj bhj gk \? wt '1t \? \? 1t 'i 4 pmf9l3 , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as qq , 0 1ri 7 p r \) b d6 e14di 5u 75u 5 m0d \) g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v mg9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v mg9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9u u f \) m3 p 9s2 e v , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qq e1 j7 9 \) q 7 9 p4u 8lt , 7 q6 gq 7 q 4tbxn bxom 5 34u 34 pl `9 1d9 7 q 7 q 1d9 1eq 7 q 1eq 7 9 1eq 2 9f9`uy 7ey 7ez nriz gk \? wt e mi 6ei4 'i 4 pl 5'w z bj n 7 , `yd 2tm \) q 1d9l 8ltq 5g9p 3 q , 3 q , 3 r \) b8f \) b g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) mr g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8g \) r f \) b8f \) b8f \) b4q , m3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3` 9 7 \( om4u pl `9 7'2 9d m`uy 7ey 7ex `p , 3t 2tm \) q 1d9 ! 34u 3l p ml p 1d9 1d9 pl `9 `9 7 3t 3v9f0 , 'w \? w \? wwiz ghj biz ghj bhj gk \? w \? wt '1t '1t 'i 6e v q qax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qq , b8g \) end part 10 14
subject roman bmp 09 14 part 9 14 pwiseman salmon usd edu \( cliff \) reply pwiseman salmon usd edu \( cliff \) distribution usa organization university south dakota lines 958 max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3' 9f8 z5'1 \? w \? wwiz bhj bhj bhj bhj giz giz giz bhj giz \? 1t ei0l , \? w \( 5z \( mu 34u 34u` \( ` \( ` \( \? w \? o` aug `0 \? 518 \) 0 mc 65 \? 7u q \? gy \? gp ! 45 2g max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 2 ! p ' ! p1 \( 2 \) 34u , \) 11 6um 6 \( 3n ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? 9 ne1 z bj `sw2 ! 3 8ltq 7 9v g m9v g9v g9v g9v gq 4tbxn b wm4u p 7'2tct f0 9c 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax df ijh nkjz \( b \( b \( w p0n vmk v mmk vn r \( 2w ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' ms k k vlv c 9v c `` \( ! , 3o \( \( n5 rdi 2 , ! 4 y2 , g 9 2l , ! 05l \( 2 l' ! mp 234u \) 0 u 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? \( n 4 `9 1d9 7 m`p , `uy 7ez 'i 6e 0q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' 9 n n lj gk \? 1z4 9c ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 3 q 9f9 l 5' m1t 'wt 'w \? w \? giz bhj bhj bhj gizw '1t ei 4 pmf9l3 u 3 \( \( hj \) p 75u \? 4u 34u 34u` \( ` \) n \) \? r` \( 0 ! `0 y4 \? 518 ! hr , 8y 3m 65c \? 8 ! \? u \? 47 \? 8 ! 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax chp 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 234u m34u 3 c ! 6um 6uin 0r ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as f pne m1 z ex f3w2 1fp4 wm wm 5 3 u34u 3l p 1eq 7 qtm \( 3t f9d m`uz n lj 'i0mf , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'r xk \) \) aj j \( b \( w p0n vmk vmk vn r \( \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax k s8v c 9v fi ! \? 9h g83 q , 3 x \( ! \( w 5 3t \( p ! , r4c 3 62l , ! 04 ! 04 ! 6ql p2 \( 2 \( yj \) `j ! gy 7 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? ml ! , `p , `p 9l0qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 1f pne1 z kn m7ez nrhj ' 2'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax ' , 3 9f9f pl 6e1t '1 \? wwiz bhj bhj bhj bhj giz \? mwt '1t ei0l 6eu 34u , c \( hj \) p , ! 75u \? 4u 0 ` \( ` \( fyn fyn m2 \? r 4 \( ' 0 `x 76 `2 y4 \? 518 45 8y 3d 0 \? 7u 1 7 \? 8 ! 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 31 \( 2p ch mp 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 234u 34u ! o7 , ! 6um 0r 2 \( 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' 2tm 2tm 2tm 2tct 9f9f9f9f9f9 3t 3v9f9d 3t f0 n lj , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'r 4 ! \) 28 fj h znkjz \( b p0n vmk vmk v r \( \? 3tc \( ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as 9v g9 ! g9v q ```` h \( 3 x \( ` 3tc \( p ! , pw ! o0i 62l g \( \) ! 04 ! 04 ! 05l ql \( 2 ! p ' ! w yj \) \( \? gq \? 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? 2 9d 7ey 7ey 7kn n n n lj gk \? i6 , 8 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q mq 9f z5'w \? ghj kn nrhj 'i0mfq 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 3 9f8 z6ei4 'w z giz ghj bhj biz gk \? w \? wt '1t '1t '1z6ei 6e1 \? u 34r , c \( , ! 7 mu 0 ` \) n dm 2tm ` \) \( 0 \? \) 5 46 `x f `82 `2 \? 518 4 ! k4 3d 2tm 2tdy 04 \) 7 7u 1 7 q \? gx 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax \( 2p chp 2 \( 2 \( 2 \) 34u 34w u' , 8'6um 6 mfyl r 2 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' z5' bj n n n m7ey 7ey 7ey 7kn 7ey `p , 2 2tm 2 9d 7kn gk \? mwt '1t ' v ax 'ax 'ax \? ! v h ij j h znb \( c n fvmk v mmk yw \( b \( \( r , ! 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax c8v fmk w \) v v h ! , 3 2 , c \( r , c \( p 4 ! 1j ! wz giz gi 04 ! \( 2 mp ' ! p ' ! b yj \) `j \? 47 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax nriz giz gk \? w \? 1t ' mi0mfq , 3 , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 1f z6ei4 \? \? wwhj biz \? w 'i0mfq , 0q , 8 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qq , 1f pnei4 \? \? mw \? giz giz giz giz \? w \? w \? w \? w '1z6ei 6ei4 \( m` \) n a1 , 7u , 2tm 2 u ! 46 ! u `2 5 1s 4 ! ! 0d 04 \) 7 \? 7u q \? wm wi ! 1 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aq \( 2 \( 2 n 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 du sc , 5 b 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax qq 8 i4 '1t 'w z km 7klj bhj kn nuy 7 , `p 9f3t 9f9 , 7ey '1t ax 'ax 'ap \( ! hd \) \) b8 fij j khb \( w ! \( bn 2 , c` 4s 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax z ! , 3 g92e3 5 r ` 3t \( r , c \( r , 2 , c 0i 62l 288 ` mz giz n bxn \( 2 du 34w kj ! j \) `j \? 47 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? \? m1t ei 6ei 4 v8 pl 9l2'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qq 8 pnei4 'wt ei0l z4 v9f9l3 q q , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max ' , 3' q 9f z6e1t '1t 'w \? 1t '1t '1z6ei 6ei4 '1t '1z6ei 4 pl pmf9l3 sz \( 2tm \) 75 p \) n u p , ! u 5 1s \) 0 ! e ! 04 ! 0d 2tm 2tdy 0 m4 0t wb 7 r ! 8z 1 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aq \( 2 \( 2 n 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 du , 7 \) x ! um \( 4i \( ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 1f9 nei4 'w z giz bj mnuy `p , 7ey 7ey 7ex `p , `p , `p , 7kn bizw 'i0mf , 3 'ax 'ax ' \( \) 1 \? \) 0df \) aj fijh znb \( c w ! `0 b \( bn \( r , ! c w8 1 max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax bs i4s , , , 2 , c 3t 2di 3t g q9 , p 8f \( `z giz x ql \) l g kj ! j \) `j \? 7u 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? q , , 0q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' 9f8 pl pl q , 3 q , 3 , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as qq 9f pl 6e1t '1t 'i 4 v9f9f q , 3 mq , 3 q , 3 9f9fq , 3 q qax 'ax 'aq1 6 ! a86 c`p \) 4m 2tm 3 \( p au a1 5 y0 m4 , w 4 ! 0d 2tm 2tdy 04 `h \? 47gy \? gy g \) r \? 8z ca 1 8 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax ' \( 2 \( 2z ! \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \) q5 3 , u' wi ! um 6 mfyl h `a \( \( 1 \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'as q9 ne1 z bj 7ex `p , `p `p , 7ey 7kn nrhj gk \? , 8 'ax 'ax '2 \) 2n \? 47 \? hd \) ij j kjznb \( b \( mb \( b \( b zn \( r , ! 148 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax , , , , , , q 1 \? 3t 0i k \? qi k , x ! 8 ! gi ! \( kj ! j \) `j \? \? b gh 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as qq , 0q , 8 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max ' , 3' q q , 3 q , 3 'ax ' , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 0q , 3 qax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 q , 1f9 l pmf9l0q , 3 qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' 6 ! p x 3 xp ! fy 2 fx r 34u 3 \( ` \) p au f `0 5 ! 04 ! 0d 2tm 2tdy 04 `h \? ! 8 ! gr \? 8 8 ! 1 1 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 3 , 7 \) x ! um h ! \( 2 1' 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qq 8 i4 'w z bhj bj n n n lj giz giz gk \? w '1t ei 4 v , 3 qax 'ax e \) ` gy 7 \? 47gy b0d \) \) b8 fij j h \? 2 , c`8ws ! 148 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' g9v g9v , , , , , , , 186 2w 2di 2g vbtm 2tm 2ud9 jd , li \) 7 ! mi j8 \( giz \( kj 8 \) `j \? \? \) 24e \) 24e 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max q , 3 qax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 3' q , 3 , 3 qax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 qq , 3 q , 3 mq , 3 , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as q , 3' q q , 0qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax \? 5u b o`p p3 qv g 75u 6um h \( fyn fx ` \( mu 34u 0 \) 76 ` \? 5 \) 104 ! 04 ! tm 2tdy 0 m4 `h 0w gx ! 8 ! 'ax ! 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax l ! \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \) 36s 3 , fsx h \( ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 1f z5'w \? w \? w \? w \? wt '1t '1t '1t ei 4 pl 9l3 q , 0qax 'a xe \) h \? gq \? u 1 \? \) 0df \) b8 fij fj h h 0i 2gt \( r4 q1 m45 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax v e \) v g92e3 , , \) rl9 0m k vmk 61d9 1d m9 1d9 id , uf d9 8f l \) \( ` \( jjjjj \( \( \) `j \? 1 \? u mn b g ' ! 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as qq , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q 9f pl v9f pl pl 9f9f l 6ei 6ei 6ei0l 9l0q , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as qq , 3 9f9fq , 3 , 3 q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aw \( 4 \( ' p3 q , 3 75u 5m 6 ` 77` \( ` \( ` \( r , c \( r 34u ! hj \) 75z \) 76 ' y' 7u 1 m4 ! 04 ! 04 3dy 3du ! 04 `h 2 g 8 ! chz ca 8 ! 8 b0d g9 h 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \) ud 2d 40w 8'6um h b '3 \( \( ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? 9 nei 5'1t \? \? w \? 1t '1t 'i 4 pmf9f , 3 ' max 'as 'ax 'ax ' 3 \( h j8 \) 0 \? 47gy b0d \) 0df \) b8 fij fij mk vbdi \( r , e 45' , ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax g9v g 5 , rl mk 1d9 1d 2lk rlk rl k \) b8 c8v c8v c mh \( \) `j \? q 7 ! q 1 1 ' 1 1 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 8 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 9f9f9 l pl pl pnei 6e mi 6ei 6e1t '1t \? \? wt \? \? wwiz ghj bhj bhj gizwt e9f , 3 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? r` \? kr r 75u ! p , `x , c \( u 34u 3 \( u 34u' 75z \) '6 ' h \? 47 q p' s5 ! 04 ! 04 ! 04 ! 04 ! 04 `h a0 1 ! 8 ! 8 b fyn 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \) , \( q z \? 6um h b 4a \( 2 \( 1 \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' 9f9f pne1t '1z6e v9f m9l3 q qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? n j ! j b0d \) `j ! gq \? u \? h \) 0d \) 0d \) \) df k vbdi \? 2 , c \) 3 , 45 x 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax g9v g9v g 5 rlk v lk rlk rlk rl9 1d9 rl \? 'q \? f 3q \( \( \) `h q 2 , , ! p ' , , ! q 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? mq , 0q , 3 q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as qq 9f pl mi 6ei4 '1t 'w \? w \? bhjn 7kn n n n n n n 7ey 7ey 7klj gk \? m1z4 v9f9f q q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 2tm \? 34 \( ' q , 3 w6 ! p , `x 34u 34u 34 mu 34r ! 75z \) '6 gi ! gy w 4 ! 04 ! 04 ! 04 ! 0 m4 , th 8 ! 8 ! 8 ! \( 2 b f rw ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' ! \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \) 3 c \) ! um cz h b \( b \( \( max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax q , 3 q qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a \( \( kj fj8 \) 0 9 7 1 \? gx ! h b0d \) 0d \) 0d 2di 2di \? , e \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'a r r e 5 , , k rlk rlk rlk sq \? 'qk rlk sq sl rfi 3q rsc ! f 0b \( \( b \( c \( \) q , 3 qv , sax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qq , 0qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax q , 1f9 nei4 '1t \? \? ghj kn n n 7 9f3t , 7kn 7kn gk \? w '1t 'i 6e pl v q qax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax `g \( 34u ! \? p \) 2tl ! `0 ! `0 au 75u , ! 7u , c \( r` \( l45u 75z \) '6 e \) 0 h ro0 mt , w 4 ! 0s w th , w s2 h ! 8 ' ! p2 \( 2 \? w \( \( ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 tp ! e \) fyl cz h 0t \( 98 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax ' jh ` ! ub znh ijf 0d h \? 47 \? gy ! h h j ! 3t 0i \? , ! 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' q , 3 r \( 2 \( \) 2 , rlk rl ! `0 k hm9 2l mk 'q sl \? 'q \? 'l sl ! f ! f 3l b zd \( \) , 3 w9v e \) , x 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3' 9f8 z5'1 z bj nux `yf9 3t tm 2 7'2tm \( 2tm 2 7ey 7ez n n n lj gizw \? w '1z4 m9f9fq , 3 q q , 3 q , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ap \) `g u 34 \( ' 2tm j75u fi 7hl l45u 75u 4p x ! 0 h hk 0t , w 4 ! 0s th h h h \( 2 \( m2 2di \? r` \( ` ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 , pw g 6uin fsx cz h ! 0t 1 6'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 9 zj \( \( bnkj ! j \) `j \? \? u 1 7 \? gx h 9 , c \( r , c 3t , 3 ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aq , 3 q , 3 r r r p ! 2g 61dk 'l sl sl ql l j ! e f 0b rvn fhd q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 e \( , x ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' mas qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3' q 8 z5'w z bj m7 9f9d 3t \) q 7 q 1eq 2tm 2 3v9f9d `uy n n n n 7ey 7kn mn n bhj biz \? w '1z6ei 4 v9f9l3 q q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' mu 34u ` \( ' 2tm \) p3 ! j75u 75u 9z ! u`0 l45u 75u 4p xp ! 0 \) 0d \) 0k ' 4 ! 0s th h 3dy 15 \( 2 2di 2di 2di \? r` u 34u q , 3 , 3 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' ql \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \) \( 3` 6uin fsx cz h h h ! 2di 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a ! q9 4 mmk v \( b \( kjz fj8 \) 0 gy 7 \? 7u 1 ! 8 \? gy e , c \( r , ! c 1 m4 r4c 3 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' q ! , 3 p3 q , 3 r ``` \( hst 2g 62lk 'l sl sl ql ' m34u p ! e' , f 3q df znb g9v g9v g92e3 , 1 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 1f z5'wwiz bj 7 9f9f9f9d \) q 1d9 1eq 7 q 7 qtm \( 9f9`p mn n n n nuy 7 , `p , f9d `p , 7ex `uy n mz '1z6e pmf9l3 q q , 3 qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 0d \) 0d w j f gg5u \) yup \( l45u 75u xp , ! fyn ro0 mt ! 04 ! 04 , th 1p 3d , 15 ! 6q 2di 2di 2di 2di \? r 4u ` \( 4 , 3 'as ' , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 5 ql p2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 234u 34u \( xg 6uin fsx cx h h h 2di 2di 98 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax ' ! p 0 v ! \( b znh ijf 0 \? q \? u \? 47gy \? gy \? , 8 18 , pw \? , 8 18 c 3 r'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'aq , 3 q p3 q , 3 r \( h h2 e \( st hm 62l sl ' 34u p ! e' , f 3q rsf \( b \( mb h ij g92e3 , pd \) 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'as' 9f8 i4 'w z bj 7ex `p 9 3t tm \( tm \) q 1d9l `9 1d9 1d9 7'2 , `uy 7 9f9f9 3t 3t f9f9f9f9f9d `uy n lj \? wt 'i 4 v9fq , 3 , 3 q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 2tm w8 ! ! \) ! \( ! giyu `45u 75u b6 `x mp , tm 2 fyn f 0 rlk 04 ! 04 , th dy' ! p ' dy , u04 2di 2di \? r 4u ! \? w \( \( 'as' q , 0q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a ql \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 234u 34u 31 \( , xg 6uin fsx cx cx cx cx di 2di 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' ! sn \) jjb \( 0 vma`0b \( bnkj ! j b0d j \? gq 7 \? 47 \? gy \? g q145 145 145 146 , y0 c 0i sq \( 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ! , 3 q , p3 r g9v kp3 v , e \( st hm9 sq sl 34w ! p ! e' , f 3q yw \( c w p0n h \) aj \? n g9v en fyn c8v pd \) max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 3 q 9f z5'1 \? ghj kn 7 , f3t 3t tm 2 7 9 pl 3l ! d9 7 q 7'2tct 3t 3t 2tct 3v9 mf9f9`p 9f0 , `p n lj gk \? 1t e pl , 3 'ax 'ax ' max ' , 3 q , 3 q , 3 qq , q , 0q , 3' q q , 3 q , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax ' mu 34 \( ' ! `8 ! , 3o \( 0 ! `0 ! rn giz ` a` 3a \) zi ! 75u 76 , tm x cz f 0 rlk rlk u ! 04 y' ! py 3dh , u04 \) tm 4 2di 2di 2di 34u` \? w q , 3 , 3 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax '4 15555l ql \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 du 34u 34u , ` xg 6uin fyl cx cx cx cx cy m1 2di ih 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 9 ap ' \( 0 vma`0b \( b \( kjz \) `j ! gy 7 \? 47gy \? gy \? 1s , , ! 8 , y24 ! , c 0i 63q r'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax '` \) vo p3 r g9v g ! , 3 q , 3 q , 345 2udk 'l sl , 9hl u ! mp ' ! z ch 28 ! f ! f l 1j ryn yw w p0n \( fij , c8v vlv c8v c8v 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as q , 3 qq , 1f pne1 \? bhjnuy `p 9f9d 2 7 q 1d9 ! 34u 34u 3l p 1d9 1d9 7 q 7'2 mtm 2tm \( 2tm 2 3v9f0 n lj biz '1z6ei 6ei 6e mi 4 pl pmfq , 3 q , 3 9f8 pl z6ei4 '1t '1t '1t ei 5'1t '1t ' m1 z \? 1z4 \( ' 2 , k` \( ! , 3o' a' ! ! , 3 ' ! ! 75u 7 , ! 3x cz 8 `k rlk rlk 2 h , u04 3m 15 ! 1 2di 2di 34 \( ' `dl 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? 4 2t ql \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 du 34u 3 rsc \( g 6um cx fyn fyn fsx d1 1 1 1 1 ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' ! q2 ny jj nb ! \( b \( b z fj8 \) `h gy 7 1 ! 8' , , e \) 0 e \) \) 0 c \( r , c \( r , 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax e \) ! `0 \) v g9v g9v f ! 45 p sl , uj u p 'hz chz c ! \( k 8 ! f ! f 2s k di \( fyn ry mw n \( i4s en fmk vmk s8v c 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 8 'ax 'ax q , 3' mq 9f pnei4 'w \? wwiz bj 7 9f9d 3w2tg 9 1d9 1d9 pl p4 p 1d9 1d9 7 q 7 9 1d9 7'2tct 3t 9d 9f9f9d `uy nrhj giz \? w \? 1t ei 6ei 4 pne pl 6ei4 'w \? w z giz giz giz ghj bj n 7 7ey 7kn 7ey n n \? w py ! a86 ` kp3 q , 3 q , 3o \( 2 gg ! \( 0 ! `80 ! 5z ` 9x ! ! 6u 75u 7 o` cx lk rlk rlk ! 0s2 h 2 h c 4 ! 0d 2d1 1 chz chu 34u 0 ik c \( \( \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax tm ! \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 du k 0p g 0w \) x ! um 6um fyn fyn \) \) cy 1 1 1 1 1 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 9 ! p' z \( b ! v ! `0 \( b \( b z fj8 \) 0 gy 7 1 \? r4 ! hr , c \( p c 3t 3t 3t sl r' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qt 0 rlk a86 rlk p ! g9v m8 ! 145 'o uj u p chz , ' ! p4u 3 , ! \) jd mi si \( fyn fyw \( c d9 e \( 1'9 c8v fmk max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as qq , 3 9f9f m9l3 q , 3 q , 3 9f8 z6ei4 \? \? wwiz giz giz bhj kn 7ex `yd 3t tm 2 mtm \) q 7 q 7 q 7 9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 7 q 7 q 7 qtct f9f9f9f9`p , m`p , `p , `p , `uy n lj biz giz '1z6ei0l 6e pl 6ei 6ei4 ' mw \? giz kn 7ey 7ey nuy `p 9f9f9f9f9 3t tm 2 3v9 3t 3t f9f9 mu 0 \? pv a86 ! `0 ! `0 ! 24 ! `80 ! 76 ma` ! 04 cx ok 0t lk rlk rlk rl ! \) 04 m' dh hs5 ! 04 \) chz c ! p 'hz 34u 34 \( 34 \( ` \( ` \( \( ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 0s2 hs5 tm ! \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 du k \) wb \? gx ! um 6um um 6um 6um8d \) \) n 1 1 c ! ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' \( 0 \? h z \( b ! v ! \( b \( b znh j8 \) 0 9 7 1 \? h e 1s , 3t 3t di 2di 2di 'q sl \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as 0d \) \) 4m 2tm 2tm md a86 q , 3 u 145 145 'o6ej ch mp ' ! p4u 6 , ! c 1 ! w fyn g b \( c n1d n n n 3 , i4s 1 1 g9 c 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' mas' 9 l pl 9 l pl 6e1t '1t \? \? w \? w z giz giz giz bhj bhj kn nuy 7ey 7 , `yf9f9f9 3t tm \) q 7 q 7 q 7 q m7ez n n nuy 7ey `p , `p , f9f9`p 7kn n lj giz bhj gk \? 1t '1t ' m1t 'i 6e1 \? ghj bj n `p 3w2tm \) q 7 q 1eq 7 q 1fp ml `9 7 q 2tm 2tm ! `82 kp3 2 \( ! `0 3c`p 7ha1 ! 04 z 0t 0 mt `k p ! 3 234 ! 0s2 h 3dh a04 3m 4 t2 c ! p ' ! p '4 mu 0 \( 34u 34 \( 34u 0 \( \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a 104 ! 0 mm ! \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 qk um ! \) x 0w wm mum 6um 6 8 ! um 6 \) ! ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a n i4 d9 fijh z \( ! ! \( b \( b znh ij \) 0 9 u ! h 46 , \( st 2di 2di 2di 2di sq \? 'q sq , ! \) 7 \( ' \( ` mu ` u 34u ! r` \) ` \) n ``` \( q 145 145 145 sl 'o6ej l' ! p1 \( 234u 68 ! c 7 ! \( w ryn mb \( b \( n 5d q , 3 e 5 , q 1v en 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax qq , 1f9 l z6ei4 '1 \? wwiz giz giz giz giz bhj bhj bhj biz \? w z bhj bhj bj n n 7ey 7ex `p , f3t tm \( 3w2 3t f9d `uy 7kn nrhj biz ghj kn n n 7ey `yf9f9d 7ey mn n n n bhjn n giz giz bhj bj nux f3t 3t tg q 7 q 1d9 1d9 ml ! 34u 3 wm4u 34u 3l ! d9 1d9 1d9 pl 3s 86 kqv e q ! ! \) 25 ! '5 5u 3 x , `45u ! 04 sn \) 6 a86 , v tm ! 04 c 4 p2 \( 2p ' ! p ' ! p ' ! u 34u 34u 0 \? w \? w \( 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax ! 0m p2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 mum 6 2 \? w 0t ! 8 ! gy ! \) \) n cz 34u m3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax \? n cd ap , n ! r0d fj h z \( m1 ! \( b \( b \( b znh j8 \) 0 9 u ! h 4 ! o0i 3`p 2di 2di 3`p , di 2di hm9 rl \? 'q \? 'q q9 e \) v e \) 9 ! dl \? r ! \( 34 \( \( r` \) rot u 8 , q m8 145 p 2udk sl , 9hl ql ql u 3 \) 07 ! mf ij \( b \( b \( b \( c n v e \) , max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 qq , 3 9f8 z5'1t 'w z giz \? w z gk \? w \? w \? w \? w '1t '1t '1t '1t \? \? wt 'w z bj n 7 , `p , `p 7kn nrhj biz ghj bhj bhj kn 7 , , `p , `p , `p , `uy 7ey 7ey 7 , `p 9 3t tm \) q 7 9 1d9 1d9 p4u 3 wmbxn 3 q30t \( n bxn b wm wm 8n b wm v bxlt , \) 24 ! rl ! `7 q , 3o \( 0 ! q '5 5u 76 ! u , ! l sl \) 24e \) 6'0 rl ! 5 tm 234 ! 0 m4 , th y' dh ! 0d 15 ql \( 2 \( 2p ' ! \( 2 m34u 0 \( ' \? w jh ` 2j \( fql556t4 ! 04 2tm 5l p2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 n 2 n 2 mr \( \) b om 6uh \? gr g \) w wm wm gy \? gy ! 6 \) 2 fsx j f tu 34u 3 8x 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax k \) 4 n b0d fj h z \( b ! v ! \( b \( b \( kjz fj8 \) 0 gq \? u ! k s0 , c 0i , `p , di 3`p , hp , di 2gt 2g 62l \? 'q \? 'q qd , j6 `g \? r` u 1k \? e 2d 8 ' , ws ! 146 , e \( 'l qhl ! sl msl sl 8v \) b8f \) b8f \( b \( 1d9 n n ! v i4s , , , 9 1 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as qq , 0qq , 3 9f9f pnei4 \? \? wwizw \? giz \? wwiz z gizw \? 1t '1z6e pl 9f8 9f9f q 8 bj n n n 7ez n n nuy n lj bhjn n bhj bhj bhjn n 7ex `p , `p , `p , `p , `p , tg q 1d9 p4u mbxn 3 q30t 0tq 5g9v g p g9v g9 7 q 7 3 q 7 0t , 7 9v p 3 q , , kp3 q , 3 q , 3o' a` ! `0 ! `0 ! m`0 q , 3a 7 , ! ug xgg5u ! hl fql \( 3l sl ptm `k p 7 2tm \) 04 ! 0s2 h 3dy a04 \) ! 6ql ! \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 n 4u ! l ! `a \( 2 fql 6t4 , u0 m4 2t5555 p2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 n 2 \( 2n rn b0 ! ok 6um 6 8 ! 8 ! 9 mw \? 47 q \? \) \) l cx 3 8v 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 2o ! ap ' ! q2 m69 \) 2 fj h z \( b ! \( b \( b \( bnkj fhd \) `j ! gq \? u ! \? di , `p , vmhm k vbdi \( r , c 'q \? 'q qd 2gt ! g92 m4 'n 1 \( 34u ! , q 8 , pw ! 'q l ! ! 04 ! 04 , w s5 ! 04 8f \) b8f js z \( b z \( mb \( cn n n nxy 3dy 5 \) v q v e 5 , , , 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 3' mq , 3 9f9f9f9f9 l pne1t \? \? giz giz giz \? w z giz bhj gizw \? m1t ei0l 9l3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 9f q 9f9 nei4 '1 z giz bhjn n mn lj giz giz bhj bhj giz giz km 7 , `p , `p , 3w2tg q 1d9l pl p4 v bs3 q6 g tq , 3` 9v g9v tq , 3 q , 3 q , m3` v g9v g9p p 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 r \) b8f \) zl ` 1 x \( 3o' ! \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 `0 ! `0 ! `0 ! ! le ! , ! \? \) l \( 2 sl fy \) lk ! al ! ` 2tm 2tdu ! 04 , th 2 h4 \) ql \( 2 \( 2 4 ! 6ql \( dle \) 1 \) 24e \) 6ql \( 2 \) l 6t4 , ty , u04 2t5555 ql \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 vw yj \) \( um 6um 6um 6um ! g x7 7u \? 7u \? 47gy ! \) 2 cx cy 7e sl ey 7 si 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 3 q , 3 q , 3 r ! su \) 1j j kjz \( b ! \( b \( b znh ! j \) `j \? gq \? u \? v 7 2di , hm \( r , c \( rl \? 'qk ! 8 c \( p e r \) 6' 2w u 63 \) 1 4 pwe \) 24 q c 'q l 'o 1 ! , w h h 3dy 3d ! fijh znkjz \( nxy 3dy 3dy q p2 \( ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax ' , 3' q , 3 9 l z6ei4 '1t 'w \? giz giz giz bhj bhj biz \? w \? wt 'i0l 9l3 , 3 ' , 3' q q , 3 q , 3 m9f8 i4 \? \? wwiz giz giz \? w \? 1t \? \? w '1t `p 9f9f9f9f9 mf3t tm 2tm \( tm 2tg 9 1fpl 8n bxlt , 7 q 5g tq , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , m3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 \( f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8e , b8f \) b8f \) b4q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 \( f \) o`p 8k , y5v g a` ! `82 \( 0 ! `0 ! ! ! , 3a 4 \? 2 x x 3 \( `fy \) ! u3l ! eq 7 tm 2t mm 104 y' ql ! \( 2 \( 2 \) l qy \? \) 0 k ! \) ! \( 2 \) l 6t4 `h 2t5555 ql \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 uh `7b fyn um 6um 6um 6 9 \? wm \? 6 \) cx c8 34w sf c8 ` \) 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax rlk u \) v q , 3 qv \? \) ijh \( b ! `0 \( b \( kjz fj8 \) 0d \? 7u gi 9v 7 , di , hm9 2lk 1d ! hst hm9 2lk rlk , ! , c \( p e ! 1s \( pi sl wo sqk wt ! f ! 18 , pwe \) 24 , \) 2 , g 62l \? 'l , 9hl v md1 3 p p y' ! p ' ! p ' ! p ' \) e9 7'q \? 'q j z` \( 1d n cdy 5ds g83 g92 \) yp \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 9f8 6ei 6ei 5'1t '1z6e1t ' m1t \? \? w \? wwiz bj n n nrhj biz gk \? w '1z4 v9fq ' , 3' q 9f pl pl 9l3 , 3 q , 3 q , 1f9f8 z5'1t '1t 'i 6ei 6e1t \? \? w z ghj km m7 , f3t \) q 7 9 1d9 1d9 1d9 7 q 1d9 1fp4 v 0tq 5g p 3 q , m3 r \) 3 q , 3 r \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r8f \) b8f \) b8f \) mb8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) lv c , 3 e g o' `0 k 0 rlk rn 4r , ! \( 2 n x u 3 \( `fy \) m86 \) 4tbxom 2tm 2t4 ! 0s2 h ql ! \( 2 \( 2 \) l ql a86 zdk p kt tm ! \( 2 \( 2 q5m a0 m4 2t5555 ql \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 n 2 k6 b0d 0 \( ' cx fyn um 6 \? gr gg 7u z \? 6ub0d \) \) l cx cz y6 cy ! 2w 4u 34 \( ! \? w \) `e \) 6 q h0 ! `9 \? 47 \) ijh \( ! \( bnkj ! j \) `h gy \? 7u yz ggb j g0 rlk qd ! hst k 2ud9 0m \? 2 , ! , c \( p v ! 1 o5jq rl 2f , e w p , g 62l sl , \) 9 , u 7ey 7 1p ' ! p ' ! p ' dw e9 \? 'q fyn \? \( 1d 9 1 1 , y5v wa \) 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qq 9f z6ei4 'w \? m1t '1 '1t '1t \? \? w z gk \? w z bj nuy n n n n biz 4 ne1t 'i 4 9f9f pl 9f9f9l3 q , 3 q , 3 q 9f pl pne1t '1t ' m1 \? bhjnuy 7ex `yd 3w2 1fpl pl pl ! 34 p 1d9 1d9l ! 3 v 0t , 7 9p 3 q , 3 r \) b4q , b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b g \) r f \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) mr g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) \) v g83 q , 3 r h0 ! \) \) 4r \) ! \( 2 bxn n fu 3 \( ` \) n` \( u 1a \) 4m \( u p q32 2tdu ! 0s2 h mm 4 ql ! \( 2 \( 2 \) l ql p 5 2tm 2t4 3m 2tm 23m 2tm ! \( 2 \( 2 q5m `h 2t5555 ql ! \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 \( 2m ` \) 36 \( 25 max cz 6uh \? gy \? gy \? 6ub0d \) \) l cx cz \) h w \) 7 \) 9 ! rw \( ` u 0 \( ' \) v k` ! g u 1 \? b0d fijh nb \( 0 vma`0b \( bnh ! jf \) \) `j ! 7 ggb \) p 'q qd 2gtc \( r , c 3t k vbtm m9 1d9 w \( r , ! , c \( p e \( pi o5jq ' , y0 ! hr , ! \( st hm9 sq bq c8v vmk c9nv1 e \) 9' ! p ' dy 3dy 9 7 q ` \( ` \( ` \( c9nv1 \) , q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? mq 8 z6ei 6e1t '1t 'w \? ghj bj n n 7kn n 7ey 7ex `p gk \? w '1t '1 '1t \? \? w z bhj gizw '1t ei 4 , 3 q , 3' mq , 3 q , 1f z6ei4 '1 z bj n n 7ex `yd tg q 1d9 1d9 pl `9 1fp ml pl 34 wmbxlt , 7 q 5g9p 3 q , 3 r \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) r g \) r g \) r g \) mr g \) r d6 a86 a86 a86 lg \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) ! y52 g q e \) , ' ! \) 4r ! \( u 34u 34u 3 \( u \? 34u , c \( \( m5 mm 2tdu ! 0s2 h tm 4 ql p2 \( 2 \( 2 ql p 2t4 ! 0 m4 ! 04 ! 04 tm ! \( 2 \( 2 q5m ! 0 ! \( 2 \( 2 \( 2 uh z 'ax 'ax cx \) 6uh \? gy \? gy w \? 6um8d \) \) l cx cx \) 0dum 6 c8v 7 \) 7 lk v m2 \? w u ! \) 6 k rlk \) ! gq \? u ! b0d fijh nb \( 0 v ! \( bnh ! jf 0d j \? gq 7 ' ` n7 , \? 'q \? l kt \( r , vbtm 61d hi \( p ! , c \( r4s ' , ! o0i o5ih c \( r , ! i24 ! hst hm9 'l ahl ' g9 fxv 1 3 , g83 \( 7 q6 h' ! p ' 9 \( ` \( ` \( ` \( ` \) ik z 6 \) e pl 9f9fq qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax f z6e1t '1t 'w z kn nuy `yf9f3t 3v9f9d 9f9`p , `p , 7ey n lj bhj bhjn 7ey nuy 7ex `uz biz gk \? wt ' mi0l 9f pl 5'1t '1t ' ghjn 7 , `yd \) q 7 9 ml ! 34u 34u pl ! 34 5g9v g p , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , b8f \) b8f \) mb8g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r d6 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 lg \) r g \) r f \) b8f \) mb8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) g , , , ! p ' 0 ' mt 0 ! `0 4r ya w9v p0 41 1 1 r , c \( `fy ! \) 3 \( ` \( 2t4 ! 0 h tm 4 ! 6ql p2 \( 2 \( 2 fql ql ! 104 ! 04 ! 04 ! 04 ! 0m 15555l ! \( 2 \( 2 10 ! ph m4 tm p2 \( 2 \( 2 hb cx `8 'ax 'ax ' cx cz om 6 mum ! gr \? gy w \? \) \) l cx cz \) 0dum ! 8 ! 4 a0 `h \) 2lk ad , rw \( 0 \? p \) \) 0d \) ! g 7u ! b0d \) ijh nb \( v ! \( b znh ! jf 0d j \? gy 7 6'ax 'ap ! `7b mt \? 'q \? hi 3t 2g vbtm 2tm , c \( pw m8 wc 3 9 sl j h ! , c \( r , ! 8 c \( st idk sl q ml c8v c8v fynv d1 ! ! p 7ey \( ` j` \( ` \( ` h \) kj u '1z6e pl pmfq , 3 , 3 q max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax e1t \? \? wwiz kn n `yd 2 1d9 1d9 1eq 2tct 3t f9f9f9f9f9d 3t 3w2tg q 7'2 3t 9f9`uz 4 pl pl 6ei4 '1t \? \? wt '1t '1 z bj mnuy `yf9 3w2 1d9l 34u p4u 3 8lt 3 9v g p 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , mb4q , 3 q , b8f \) b8f \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r186 a86 a86 a86 a86r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) q , 3 q , 3o r e \) , , k `0 p ! g92 nt \) 4l 34u , c \( r , c \( r 104 3 mm 15 ! 05l ql \( 2 \( 2 \) l ql ! 104 ! 04 ! 04 ! 04 ! 0m 15555l ! \( 2 \( 2 ! 0m 2t5555 ql \( 2 \( h l ' max 'ax cx om 6uh ! \) r gwm w wmxg 6um 6 \) 2 cx cz \) ! 9 \? 8 ! ub h \) , ad , 2 \( 34 \? tm h ` \) 0d \) \? ! b0d \) ij j nkh \( b \( b znh ! j \) `j ! 7ax 'ax 'ax \) ! \) \? \? 'q \? hi 0i k 2tm 2tm 2w vbf , ! , 4c g 9 sl j h pw ! 8 ! 8 ! 8 c 3t 2ud l 0d \) 0d \) vlv c8v fyn n g9v e \) 2 jjjjj \( j \( ` \( ` ! ukj u 8 z mw '1t 'i 4 pl , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? \? mwwiz kn 7ex f3w2 1d9l 34u pl ! d9 1d9 1d9l p4 p 1d9 1d9 1d9 1eq 1d9 1eq 7'2tct gizw \? \? wt '1t \? \? giz bhj biz gk \? mwt '1t \? \? ghj kn 7ey `p 9f3w2 1fp4u 3 v bxlt tq , 3 q , m3 q , 3 r \) b8f \) 3 r \) b8f \) b8f \) b8g \) r g \) r g \) r d6 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 lg \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8g \) r g \) r ! , 3 \) 24e \) , 96 08 gi , 5c p e8 ` ! 65 d9 \) 4m `g \( u 34u 34u 34u , c \( mu , , th dy' ! ph ! 0m ql p2 \( 2 \) l ql 104 ! 0 m4 ! 04 ! 04 tm 15555l ! \( 2 \( 2 104 , u04 2tm ! \( 2 u `q \( 2 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax cz om 6uh \? \) wm 0t wmxg 8'6um 6 \) 0d \) x b0d \) 6 8 ! 8 ! um 6um 6un n 1 1 a86 m89 2w ! cz \) 0d \) \? ! hd \) 1j fj kh \( b \( b znkj ! j \) `h gy 'ax 'ax 'ax 62lk 'qk qd 2tm 2w vmk \? 2 , e , c` , dm9 'll5j o5jq e \) , rq vl \) `s \) 0d \) vmk q , 3 \( v mmk ukj u 8 , j bizw \? w '1t 'i 6ei 6ei , 8 ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax jn f3t tg q p4 wmbxn bxom u34u 34 wm 5 wm 5 3l pl ! d9 1d9 1eqtm \( 3v9f0 , 7klj bhj kn n lj bj mn n n n n n giz giz ghj bj n n n n n n 1fp4u 7 m9p 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b g \) r g \) r186 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) b8f \) mb8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) 6lv \) 24e , , ! p ' ! q ' \) en fmk sr , thu , `k p ! 2 , p , c4 mu 34u 34u 34u , c \( r , ` \) n b h ! py , u04 2tm 15 ! 6ql ql p2 \) l ql ! ! 04 , w 4 ! 04 ! 04 2tm ! \( 2 \( 2 2t4 c 4 ! 0m ! \( 2 k4 , m0q 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' cn om 6 gwm 0t 0t \? 8'6um okz \) 0d \) 6um 6uh ! 8 ! 6 mum 6um8d \) 0d \) 0d cx h ! `0 6 \( kj cxd \) 0dum \? ! hd \) 0d fijh z \( v ! \( b \( bnkj ! j fj8 \) 0 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' ma` rl9 2tm k vbdi 2 , e \) 24 ! , c \) 3 , m4 p hm9 'll5j w , y2 , 1 mv en fmk sx n n ! j \( w p0 ! \) z n lj biz gk \? w \? w ' m1 \? wt '1t ei0l pl v9fq , 0q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 2 1fp4u 8n , 7 mq 4t 2 bxn bxn u34 p4u 34 p 1d9 7 qtm 2 3t 3t , `p , `p , `p 7ey n n n lj bhj bhjn 7ez n 7ex `yd bs3 q6 g9p , 3 q , 3 q , b8f \) b g \) r g \) r186 a86 lg \) r186 a86 a86 a86 a865 145 145 145 06 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 lg \) mr g \) r f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8e , 3 q , 3 r \) b8e , b8f \) b8f \) vlv \) 9 ! p , p ' ! p e \) en f \( pg 6lv c8v f ! , ! kr q , 3o \( 0 ! ! \( 4u 34u 3 \( r` \) n dm \) 1p ' ! py a0 m4 tm ql ql ql ql ! 2tm ! 0s2 hs5 ! 04 ! 04 ! \( 2 \( 2 fql556t4 h 2 h4 ! 0m 15555l , , , 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax om 6un gw 0t wb \? 6um 6um8d \) 0d \) 6 mum 6um 6um ! 8 ! 6um 6ub0d \) 0d \) x cx h ! `0 6 \( kj cxd \) 0dum \? ! h \) 0d \) ijh z \( v ! \( b \( bnkj fj8 \) 0 max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ap 9 1d9 w 2gt 0i k 2w vbdi 2di 2 , ! 8 ! hr , ! i1 43 , hm9 'll5j wo rl 2f , v ! 18 , 8 ! ms \) 2 , g 62l qv ! p 'v dv fl \) 8 ` n \) v g9v4e \) 2 3dy 9 \( b x 9f9`p 7kn n n biz gk \? w \? wt '1z6ei 6e pl 9l3 , 8 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q 1fp4 g9v g9 4tb wm wm v bxn wm4u 34u pl pl `9 1eq 7 q 1d9 7 qtct f9d `p 7 , `p , f0 , 7ey 7ey 7ey `p , `p 9 tm \) q 1d9l 8ltq 7 9p 3 q , b8f \) b8f \) r g \) r186 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a865 06 a86 a86 a86 a865 14 m5 ! 865 145 ! 86 \) r g \) r g \) b8f \) b4q , b8f \) b4q , 3 q , b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) vlv ! y52 ! p d' ! ! p ' \) \( pd \) , v f 9 0 e ! \) 4o \( \( 4u 3 \( ` \) n fyn dm \) 24e \) 0' ! p ' ! py c 4 3m ql ql ql p 5 2tm ! 0s2 h a04 ! 0m ! \( 2 \( 2 fql556t4 , hs5 ! 0m 15555l p \( 2 ax \( ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax om 6un gw 0w wm wb \? 6um 6um 6um 6um 6um 6um 6um 6uh ! 6um 6 \) 0d \) 0 cx j mh nb \( bu ! v 6 \( kj cxd \) 0dum \? gy ! h \) 0d \) ijh \( b ! v ! \( b \( bnkjz 2'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax '65 \( ! k \? 3t 3t 2g vmk \? 3t di 2 , c \( r , c \( p e , , hm9 'll5j wo ml sq9 kt ! 145 \) 2 , g 62l ! p ' ! p 9 , ` \( n n n n ! p \( ' ! p ' ! p ' ijh mkh 2 2tct f9d `uz n n nrhj biz \? 1t ei 6e pl v9fq , 0q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 9l ! 3 8n 3 q 7 2 bxom u34 wmbxn bxom wm4u 3l pl `9 1d9 1d9 1d9 7ey 7ex f9f9f9f9`p , m`p , `p , `yd \) q 7 q 7 9 1d9 ! 3 8n 0t , 5g9p , 3 \( f \) b8f \) r g \) a86 a86 a865 145 145 145 14 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 e145 145 145 145 06 a86 \) r g \) r f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) mb8f \) b8f \) b g \) r g \) r g \) vlv j \) v0 'v g9 ! ' \) 279 lak 0ek ! p 1 ! \( dle \) ! `0 \( 2 \( 0y 3dy a04 3m ql ql fql q5m 2tdu ! 0s2 h c 4 ! 0m 2t5555555l p2 \( 2 fql556t4 , th m' hs5 ! 0m 15555l l r 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a 6 0t wm wb g \) ! 6um 6um 6um 6um 6um 6um 6um 6um 6um 6 mum 6 \) 0d \) x cx h h znb 6u ! v 6 \( kj cz \) 0d \) \? 7 gx hd \) 0d \) ijh nb ! vma`0b \( bnkjz h ijf \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 54 k \? 3tc 3t 3t 0i \? 3t 3tc \( p v ! 1 m8 \) 2 , hm9 'll5j u l sq9 hic \) 3 , 45 145 \) 3t hm9 sn 0 ' ! p ' ! p 5 \( n n n n ! p ' ! 7ey ! p m' fij fijh 2 \? 7 q 7'2tm 2 3v9f0 , m`uy 7kn gizw '1z6ei 4 , 0qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 9 1fp4 v bxn bxn bxn mbxom wmbxn b wm4u 34u 34 pl ! d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 7 qtct `uy 7kn m7ex \) q 1fpl pl pl 34u 3 8lt , 7 9p , m3 q , b8f \) b g \) r g \) a86 a86 a86 a945 145 145 145 145 145 145 14 m5 145 145 06 a945 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 ! 86 a86 \) r g \) mr8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) r g \) r g \) r g \) lg \) r d6 a86 \) k g9v ' ! p \? 9v g9v g9v eup l \) yn mde \) 0 1 , y5v e \) ! q mr l \) 1 ! ! `0 ! a' r p3 q h2 2 h , u0 m4 tm 15 ! 04 ql ql \) l 2t4 ! 0s2 h h4 ! 0m 2t5555555l p2 \( 2 fql556t4 , hs5 ! 0m okz \( 2 ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? \? 0w wm \) r g \) ! 6um 6um 6um 6um 6 mum 6um 6um 6um 6um 6um8d \) 0d cx j h kjz \( 6u ! v cx b0d \) \? 1 \? 0h \) 0d \) 0d \) ijh nb ! vma`0b \( bnkjz h j'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 2 , c \( st di 2gtc \( r , mc 3t 2di 3t \( 1 p , dm9 'll5j u l9 ti 145 1 hm ! p 7 h 1 1 ! p \( c n n n ! ue9 3d ' ! p ' ! p ' ! p ' , \) b8f 0df \) aj ub \? \) pt 1d9 7 q 7 qtm 2 3v9f9d 7ey 7kn bizw '1z6e v9fq , 3 q , 3 q mq , 0q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 9 p4u 34 wm 8om wm wm4u m4u 3l `9 1fpl 34u pl pl pl `9 7'2 `yd `p 9f9f9f9d tg 9 pl pl pl ! 3 m4 5g9p , 3 r \) b8f \) r g \) r g \) r186 a86 a86 e145 145 145 14 m5 145 14di 2di 2di \) 45 145 145 145 145 145 145 \) 2di 2di 25 14 m5 14 a86 a86 lg \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r186 a86 a86 a86 a86 b j 9 ! 9v fi 9 \) 1 ' ! , se5 \) v ! p 1 ! p ' ! n j n lak \) ! p \? n kr q , 3 q a` k 0 ! 04 2tm 4 ! 6ql ql p2 \) l q5m 2tdu ! 04 h c 4 ! 0m 2t5555555l p2 \( 2 fql556t4 , th 2 hs5 ! 0m 2 , n mtx 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? 0w wm \) r \? gx ! mum 6um 6um 6um 6um 6um 6um 6um 6um 6um 6um8d \) 0d cx h h n \( 40 ! `0 6ub z h x fhd \) \? z ! b0d \) 0d \) 0d fijh nb ! v \( b \( \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' w 2 , c \( st di \? c 3t 2di , 45' , e \( st dm9 'll5j v vclk w \( r4s ! 145 18 \) 3t 0 ' ! 7ey h ! p n \( ` n ' ! 1p ' ! py 6 ! 1 \? 51s w ! 8d h \) 0d \) `0m \) pt l9 1d9 1d9 1d9 7 q 2tct f9d 7ez bhj \? m1t ei0l 9f q q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 9l pl 34u 34u 34u 3l 3l pl p ! 3 wm mbxn bxn p 7'2tm 2 3v9f9f9f9f9f9d `uz n `p 9f3t \) q 1d9 1d9l p4u 8lt , 5g9v 3 q , b8f \) b8g \) r g \) a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a945 145 14di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2 mdi 2di 2di 25 145 145 06 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a865 145 145 nih ! dv c 9v fi 0 1 ! p i4s ! ! n n n 8v f 9h n ! ! `5 \) vo ! , 3o' `0 k 0t 0t lk4 3m ql ql ql \) l q5m 2tm ! 04 a04 tm 2t5555555l p2 \( 2 fql556t4 , th 2 hs5 ! 0m 152 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 0w wmxg \) ! 8'6um 6um 6um 6um 6um 6um 6um 6um 6um 6um 6 \) 0d cx h 6um1`0 ! `0 6ub z h ` cxd \) \? 9 ! b0d \) 0d \) 0d fijh \( b ! vma`0b \( b \( b 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax \? 2 , c \( st di \? 2 , ! i24 ! hst 3t 3tc \) 1 4 pw ! hst hm9 'll v vclk 3 \? 2 , e , q 45 143 , ! p ' ! 7ey 7 e \) 960 \? nhs jjjjj \( j n n n ! 1p ' ! p 63 4 v u 78 78 \) \? gy \? b0d \) `0m u w x `9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 7 q 2tm \( 9d 7ez bizw '1t ei0l 9l3 q qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 9 1fpl p4u 34u 3l p ml pl ! 3 v bxn 0t \( n u34 `9 2tm 2tcv9f0 7ey 7ey mn `yd 2 7 q 1d9 pl ! 34 v , 7 9v tq , 3 q , 3 \( f \) b8f \) r g \) mr g \) r g \) a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 e145 145 \) \) 2dm75u 75u 75 mu 75u 75u 75u 75di 2di 2di 25 145 145 145 06 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a945 ! 86 e145 145 145 145 145 145 \) 9 ! dv fi ! ud' n n n n n fxv mr l spd \) v c n nxy , y52 h0 ! 0t 0 mm 15 ! 05l ql ql ql fql q5m 2tm 104 ! 04 ! 04 tm 2t5555555l p2 \( 2 fql556t4 , hs5 ! ! 1 k ! ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' wb ! 6um 6um 6um 6um 6um 6 mum 6um 6um 6um 6um 6um 6 \) 0d cx h ! 6u ! `0 ! `0 6ub z mh ` fhd \) 9 6 \) fij fijh z \( b ! \( b \( 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ! \( st 0i 2 , e , , , c \( r , c \( r , ! 4c 3t 'll v ! c 45 1 q , 3 w9v g9v g9v g9v ! p \? n \( j n 1p 45 \) 24 u 18 'u \? 7u \? 47 q 7 \) `0m u w x p ml pl `9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 7 q 7kn gk \? w 'i0l 9f9f 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 9 ml ! 34 wm wm 5 34u 34u 34u wmbxlt 0t 0t \( n 5 p 1d9 7'2 mtm \( f9d `p , `p , 7ex \) q 1fpl pl 3 8lt 3 q 5g9p , 3 q , m3 q , 3 \( f \) b8f \) r f \) b g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r186 a86 a86 a86 a86 e145 22 mdi 2u 75u 75u 75u 75u 75u 75u 75u 75di 2di 2di 25 145 145 14 m5 145 ! 86 a86 a945 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 14di 2di 2 mdi \) 9 j ! u 5 ! dv c8v c8v mg9 \) g92 ' n n j , \( vl \) 1o \) cdy \) 2 v e 5 m`0 k rlk a86 ! 6ql ql ql ql ql 2tm 2tm ! 0 m4 ! 04 2tm p2 \( 2 fql 6t4 h , 9 ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? wb g 8'6um 6 mum 6um 6um 6um 6um 6um 6um 6um 6um ! 6um 6ub0d cz h nm 6u ! `0 80 6ub z h ` 9 6 \) 0d fij fij fj h z \( ! v \( b \( ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? 9 1 1 f , 3t \( r4s ! ! 8 ! 8 e , q18 c v 60m 2gtc \) 3 , e \( ! p ! p ' 1 1 n n n n n n n n 7 ! 5 18 ! 146 \? \? \) `0m u 0t l pl pl pl pl `9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1eq 7 qtm \( 9d `uz gk \? 1z6e , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 3 8n bxn bxom wm wm wmbxlt 0t 0t 0t mbxn 5 p 1d9 7'2tm \( 3v9 3t 3t 2 7 q 7 q 1d9 pl 3 8lt , 7 9p , 3 q , 3 \( f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) r g \) r g \) r d6 mr g \) a86 a945 \) 2di 5u 75u 75u4 \) 0d \) 0m75u 75u 75u 75u 75u 62 mdi 2di \) 45 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 14di 2 mdi 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di j 2 ! dv mg9 c8v mfc m5u 46 ! u 2a \( 0 ! 4e n pd \) \) v ! p v e \( 1 1v ad , 2tm r ! 6ql ql ql ql ql 2tm 2tm 2tm 2tm ! \( 2 \( 2 fql 6t4 `h 3dh l \) ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax \? 6um 6um 6um 6um 6um 6um 6um 6um 6um 6uh ! mum 6ub0d cz h 6u ! `0 ! 6ub z h x 7 6 \) 1j fij fij fj h z \( ! \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? n 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 g9v g9v4e \) vo r ' \( r , c \) 146 , e w ws 1s \) 2 , g 62l 6ei 0m , \) v e 560 1v g9v g9v g9 mv en c8v c8v c8v jj kt ! f ! 1 5' , 1 m8 , , ! c \? q \) u ` u 0t 4u 34u 34u 34u 34u pl `9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 7 qtm \( 9d ` n gizwt e pl 9l0q , 8 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax bxn bxn wm wm 8n 0t 0tbxn bxn b wm u34 `9 7 q 2tm \) q 2 7 q 1d9 1d9 1d9 ml pl ! 34u 3 8ltq6 g tq , 3 \( f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) mb4q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 \( f \) b8g \) r g \) a945 \) 2dm75u 75u4 \) 0d \) 0d \) 0d \) u 75 mu 75u 75u 75u 75di 2di 2de145 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 14 m5 145 \) 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2de145 g9v e9 m6 dv c8v b lx 2a \( 2 \? pg 9n \) xy \) 960 1 g9 c8v \( r , \? w \( ! \? w ! 04 ! 6ql ql ql ! 2tm 2t5 2tm 2tm ql ! \( 2 \( 2 fql 6t4 `h gk c9k 0d \) yn \) 1 q vax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ! um 6um 6um 6um 6um 6um 6um 6 mum 6um 6um 6uh ! 8 ! um 6ub0d j ! `0 80 ! `0 6 \( kjz mh z \) 36 6 \) 1j fij fij fj h z \( vma 'ax 0ek s8v f n mv nv gn 1 1 , y52 g9v \) v g9v g9v q q 45 1 m45 1s , , , , 8 y2 , js 62l 2 l 6ei '65 \) v e \) 960 1v en c8v c9n fyn \( ` \( ` \( ` l m9 ! 4s 1s \) 0 ! gy j u ` um w u34 wm wm wm wm wm4u 3l p 1d9 1d9 1d9 7 q 2tct f9d 7ez biz mw 'i0l 9l0q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? mbxom wm 5 wm v bxn bxn bxn 0tbxn 5 34 `9 1d9 1d9 p ml p 1d9 1d9l wm wm 8n , 7 9p , 3 r \) b8g \) r g \) r g \) b8f \) b8f \) mb8f \) b8f \) b4q , 3 p p p 9v g9v 3 r \) b8f \) r d6 75u 75 \) 0d \) u 75u 75u 75u 75u 75di 2di 2di 25 145 145 145 145 14 m5 145 145 145 145 145 145 \) 2di 2di 2di 25 145 145 145 14 a86 eo g9v dv c8v 7 ! 3` f ` ! 4h2 , l \) \) ' 1'9 fyn fyn \( r mk \? w ! 6ql p ! 04 2tm ql \( 2 \( 2 c9k h \) 3 2 , , , , , 1 1 1 rlk p 24e \) 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a 6um 6 mum 6um 6um 6um 6um 6um 6um ! 8 ! um j ! ! `0 ! `0 ! `0 ! `0m 6 \( kj fhd \) ! gq \? \) 1j fij fij fj h z \( v 9k 0d \) spd \) s8v mg9 x1 1 1 1 \) v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v , , , q145 5 u , , idk b p 6ei \( 1 5e9 , u \) 2 ! p 1v gn j , v fyn j` \( ` bql ' l9 'u4 r4 ! 4 u 1 p , f \) b8f \) end part 9 14 keywords
subject roman bmp 11 14 pwiseman salmon usd edu \( cliff \) reply pwiseman salmon usd edu \( cliff \) distribution usa organization university south dakota lines 956 part 11 14 22dm75u 75u4 \) 0iv g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v mg9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v mg9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v mg9v 0m75u 625 ! \) b8e , 3` f0 , 8 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax q 1fpl 3 wm wm 5 3l ! 3l `9 1d9 7 q 7 q 7 q 7'2tct 2tm 2tm 2 3t 3t 2tg , m`p 7ez n lj gizw '1z6ei0l q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 9f8 pl mi 5' ghj bhjn 7ey 7 9 3w2tg q 1d9l 3 8n , 5g9p , 3 q , 3 q , m3 r \) b8f \) b8g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) mb8g \) r g \) r g \) r f \) b8e , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 \( f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b4q , 3 \? \( om 5 34u p 7'2 3v9f0 , `uy 7 , `yf9f3t 3t f9d f9f9f3t 3w2tm 2 7 9 1fpl ! 3l ! d9 1d9 7 q 1d9l `9 p 1d9 \( 9f9f9d `uz nriz mw \? w \? w \? giz giz bhj giz bhj giz giz gk \? 1t '1t '1t '1t e v , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? 9 m7 r \) b g \) e14di 5u 75u4 \) 0iv g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v mg9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v mg9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v mg9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v \) 45 ! \) b8f \) 3 qgq 4tb vpl ! d9 1d9 7'2 0 ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax kn n n 7ey 7ey `yd mtg q 1d9 1eq 2tm 2tct 3t f9f9f3t tm 2tm \( 3t 9d 3w2tm \( 7ey 7ey n n bhj giz '1t e v9fq , 3 q , 3 , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 1f9 l 6e1t \? \? ghj bhj kn 7ey `yf9 3w2tg q 1fp m4u 8lt , 5g tq , 3 q , 3 q , 3 \( f \) b8g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r d6 a86 a86 a86 mr g \) r g \) r f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b g \) r g \) r8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) mb8f \) b8f \) 9s2 wm 5 p 7'2tm \( 3v9f9d 2 2 7'2tm 2tm \( 2tm 2tm 2tm 2tm \) q 1d9l p 1eq 7 q q 2 7 q 1d9 7'2 mtm nriz giz gizw \? w \? gk \? giz giz giz giz \? w ' m1t ei4 '1t '1t e v8qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax f3w2 , 3 \( f \) r d6 75u4 \) 0iv mg9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v mg9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v mg9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g4 5u \) b8e , v \? q 7 9 7 \( n bxn bu , 9 \( 9l0qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 1f pne1t '1t \? \? wwhjnux 2tm 2 9d `p , `p , `uz n 7 9 mf9d f9f9`p , `p 9f9d 3t 3w2tm 2 9f9`p 7ez nrhj bhj bhj biz gizwt 'i0mfq , 0qax 'ax q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q 9f pl pne1 \? bhj bj mnuy 7ey `p q p4u 3 q , 3 \( f \) 3 r \) b8f \) b g \) r g \) mr g \) r186 a86 a86 a86 a86 \) r g \) r g \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) r g \) b8g \) r g \) mr f \) b8g \) r g \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8e , 4t \( om4u p 7 q 1d9 2tg q 1fp ml pl `9 7 qtm \) q 7 q 7'2tm 2 3t q 7 q 2tm \( 3t 2 \) q 7 q 1d9 7 9 bhj biz gk \? w \? giz biz giz gk \? wt '1t '1t '1t ei 6ei0l pmfq , 0qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' q 8 z km `yd 1fp 33 , 3 \( f \) r d6 m5 22di 5u 75u 5 0d \) g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v mg9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v mg9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9u 0d 5 mu 75di 25 ! \) r8f \) 3 q , 3` 3 r \) b8e , 3 p 9p , 3 \? \( om4 `9 mwt 9c 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as q , 1f9 ne1 \? wwhjnux f0 , `p m7ey 7klj bhj gk \? wwhj km `p 9f0 , `uy 7 , `p , `yf9f9d tm 2 9f9 m`uy n n giz gk \? wwizw 'i 4 pmfq , 0q , 8 'ax 'ax q , 3 q 9f9f9f ne1 \? ghj kn nuy 7ex `p 9l ! 34 v bs3 9v m3 q , 3 \( f \) b8f \) b8f \) r g \) r g \) r186 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 \) r g \) r g \) mr f \) b8f \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r8f \) b g \) r8f \) b4q , v \? \( om4 pl p ml `9 1d9 1fp4 wm 8n b u3l pl pl pl ! d9 2 9f9f9d 2tm 2 mtct 3t tg q 7 9 1d9 1d9 1d9l p 7 qtct 3t nrhj bhj bhj giz gk \? w \? w 'i0l pl pl i4 '1z4 v9fq , 0q , 8 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 1f \? \? bj 7 9 \) q ! 3 8lt , 5g tq , b8g \) a945 22di 5u 75u 5 0d \) g9v g9v g9v g9v mg9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v mg9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v mg9v g9v g9u 0m75u 75u9 25 06 lg \) r8e , 3 p p , 3 r \) b8f \) b8f \) r f \) mb8f \) 3 q , v \? b u3l nwk \? 1pmfq 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' mas' q , 1f9 l z6e1t \? \? 1t \? \? wt ei0l pmf z5'1t \? \? wwhj kn n n 7ey m7ey 7ey 7 , f3t tm \( 9f9`p 7klj biz \? wt ei 6e pl v , 3 ' max 'ax 'as qq , 3 q pne1t \? \? n 7ey 7ey `p 9 1fp4u 3 q , 3 \( f \) b8f \) r g \) r g \) r g \) a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r f \) r g \) b8f \) b4q , m3 tb u3l pl u34u 8n 0t 0t 0t \( lt \( n wm u3l ! eq 3t 3t 2 2tct 3t tg 9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1eqtm 2tm 2 mtm \( 9d 7ey 7ez nrhj gk \? w \? 1t 9l3 q ' 9f8 po q ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 1f km 7 9 \) q ! 3 8ltq6 3 r \) b8g \) r186 e145 22di 2u 75 mu 75u4 \) 0iv g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v mg9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v mg9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9u 0d 5u 75u 75di 25 06 lg \) r f \) b8f \) mb8f \) b f \) b g \) r d6 a86 \) r g \) r8f \) 3 q , 3` gq32 ' 2'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 q qax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax q9 ne1t \? \? wwhj bhj bj bj nux 2tct f9d 7kn bhj \? 1t ei0l 9f q , 0q , 8 'ax 'ax 'as q , 3 qq , 3 q , 3 q 9f9f8 pne mi4 'wwiz bj nuy 7ey `yf9 \) q 1fp4 wm 8n bs3 9v , 3 q , b8f \) b g \) mr g \) r g \) r g \) a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) b8g \) mr g \) r8f \) b8f \) 3 q , v tb wm4u 3 8n bxlt 0t 3 q6 gq 7 9v g p g m9v gq32 b wm 5 p 1d9 1d9 2 \) q 2 7 q 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1eqtm 2 3t \) q 7 qtm \( 9d 7klj gizw \? wt , 3 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax ' , 1f9 ne1 z bj nuy `yd tg 9l mbxlt , 5g tq , 3 r \) mb8f \) r d6 e145 \) 2u 75u 75u 75u 5 0d \) 0d g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v mg9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v mg9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9u 0d \) 0d 5u 75 mu \) r8f \) b8f \) b8f \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r f \) b4q , 3 q , p 9v \? q30t \( oml ! g2 0 , 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q9 ne1t '1t 'w z bhjnuy m`p 9f3t f9d `uz nrhj bhj gk \? wt , 3 qax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 qq 9f9f9f9 l 6e1t \? \? ghjn n 7ey `yd \) q 1fp4u 8n , 5g tq , 3 q , b8f \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r186 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 lg \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) b8f \) 3 p 9 4tbxn bs0t , 5g9p 3 q , p p , p p tq , 3 q , p u34 p 1d9 7 9 pl p 1d9 1eq 1d9 1d9 1d9 7 qtm 2tg 9 `9 7 7klj bizw \? wt ' 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 q , 1f9 l i4 'wwiz bj 7 9 ml mbs0tq 7 9v gq 5g3 r \) b g \) r186 a945 22di 5u 75u 75u4 \) 0d mg9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v mg9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v mg9v g9v g9v g9v 0d 5u 75u9 25 06 lg \) b8f \) b4q , 3 q , 3 \( f \) b8f \) b4q , m3 q , b8f \) b8g \) r g \) r f \) b8e , 3 q , 3` gq 4t u3l ! g2 0 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 68 pl pl z7 \? bj n 7ey 7 , `p 7ez nrhj giz \? 1z4 9f , 3 q , 3 qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as q , 3 qq , 3 q , 9f pl i0l 6e1t \? \? bj 7ey `yf9 \) q 1d9l ! 3 v , 5g tq , 3 r \) b8f \) b8g \) r g \) r g \) a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 lg \) r g \) r f \) b4q , 3 p 9 7 q 7 q 7 m9v tq , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3` g9v \? q 4t \( om 5 3l p ml ! d9 7 q 1fpl ! 3l `9 1eq 7 9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9l pl p 1eq \( gizw \? 1z6e pmfq 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 qq , 3 9f9f z5'w z bj nux f9f9f9d \( 9l ! 34 wm v bs0tq6 3 r \) b8g \) b8g \) r d6 mdi 5u 75u 5 0d \) g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v mg9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v mg9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g4 \) 0d 5u 75u 06 lg \) mb8f \) b8e , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 \( f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) 3 q , 3` g \? 2'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 q 9f9 n n n 7ey 7klj bhj bhj bhj , 3 q , 3 , 3 q , 3 qax 'ax 'as q , 8 'as qq 9f m9 z6ei 6ei 5'1t \? \? bj 7ey `yd 2tg q p4 v , 5g tq , m3 \( f \) b8f \) b8f \) b g \) r d6 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a9 , m3 q , 3` 9v g9v g9p 3 q , 3 \( f \) b4q , 3 q , 3 \( f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b4q , 3 p m9v \? q 4t \( om4u 34u pl ! d9 1fp4 wm u3l ! d9 2tm \) q 1d9l pl p ml 34u pl ! d9 '1z6e 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 q , 1f9 l i4 'wwiz bhj kn 7 , `p 9f9d 3w2 7 9 1fpl 3 m9v g tq , 3 r \) b8f \) r d65 22dm75u 75u 5 g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v mg9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v mg9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g4 \) mu 75u 62di \) 45 145 14 a86r g \) r g \) r8f \) b4q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 r \) mb8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8e , 3 q , 9 6 ! q \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 3 m9 nei4 \? \? bhj bj 7ez n n n n n n n lj 'i0mf9l3 q mq , 0q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3' q 9f9f8 pl pne z6ei 6ei4 km 7 9 2tg q 1fp4 v , 5g tq , 3 r \) b8f \) b8f \) r g \) r g \) a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a9 , 3 p p v g9p tq , 3 q , 3 r \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) mb8f \) r g \) r8f \) b4q , 3 q , 3` wm 8n bxn wm v bxn u3l `9 1d9l pl pl 34u 5 3l `9 9` lj e pmf9l3 q 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 q , 3 9f9f z6e1t 'w \? bhj bj n n 7ex m`uy `yf9 2tg 9 ! 3 v 3 tq , 3 \( f \) r186 e145 145 \) 2u 750d mg9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v mg9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v mg9v g9v g9u 0d \) 0m75u 75u 62di 25 \) 2di 25 145 ! 86r g \) r g \) r8f \) mb8f \) b8f \) 3 p 9v g9v tq , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3` gq32 5 p 9` 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 9 ne1 \? bhjn n nuy 7ey nrhj giz mw 'i 4 pl v9fq , 0qax 'ax 'ax 'ax qq , 3 9f9f9f9f pl mi 6ei 6ei 6e1 z km 7 , f9d 2 1fp4 v bs3 q6 , 3 q , b8f \) b8g \) mr g \) r g \) a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 p 9v g9v g p , 3 q , m3 \( f \) b8f \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) b8g \) b8f \) 3 q , p g9v gq 5g p p g m9 4t , 4tbxom wm v 8n b v b wm4 p 1d9 9c ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as q , 3 q , 3 q , 1f z5'1 z bhj giz giz giz bhj bj `yd tg q ! 3 33 , b8f \) r g \) mr d6 a865 75u4 g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v mg9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v mg9v g9v g9v g9v g9v 0d \) 0d \) 0d \) 0d 5u 75u 75di \) 45 065 145 14 m5 145 06 a86 lg \) r8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b4q , 3` gq 7 q6 g v p p 9v g mq 4tb vp 2tct , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' q e1 z kn 7 , 7ey 7ez n lj biz gk \? 1z4 pl , 3 q , 0q , 3 'ax ' max 'ax ' , 3 q , 3 9f8 pl 6ei 6ei4 '1 z kn 7 , `p 9f3w2 7 9 ml 3 8n , 5g p , 3 r \) b8f \) r g \) r g \) a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 m9v g9v g9p 3 q , 3 r \) b8f \) r g \) r g \) r g \) a86 lg \) r g \) r f \) b4q , 3 q , m3 q , 3 q , 3 r \) b8e , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , v g9 7 q 7 q32 bxn `9 7'2 mtct , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3' q , 1f9 nei 4 pl 6ei 6e pl i4 `p 9 3 q , b8f \) b8f \) r g \) r186 e145 \) g9v g9v g9v g9v mg9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v mg9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g4 \) 0d \) 0d \) u 75u 75u 75u9 2 mdi \) 45 ! 86 \) r g \) 145 14 a86 \) r g \) r g \) b8f \) b8f \) 3 q , v \? m9v g9v p p p gq 7 \( om4 `9 7 qtct `uz v , 8 ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 0 i4 \? \? bj 7ey 7ey 7ey n n nrhj gk \? wt ei 4 v9f9l3 , 3 q , 3 qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 qq , 1f9 l 4 pl pl mi4 z bhjn 7ey `yf9 \) q p4 v 3 q6 3 q , b8f \) b g \) r d6 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 , 7 9p tq , 3 \( f \) b8g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) mr g \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b g \) r f \) b8f \) b8f \) 3 q , 3 p 9v gq32 v b u3l ! d9 ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax ' , 1f z7 \? bi f \( 7 q 5g9v g9p , b d6 75 g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v mg9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g4 \) 0d 5u 75 mu 75u 75u9 2di 25 145 ! 86 \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r d6 a86 a86r g \) r g \) mr g \) b8f \) b8f \) 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , p v gq 7 q 7 \( n 5 pl pl ! eq mtct , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? n 7ey m7ey 7ez n lj gk \? w 'i 4 pmf9l3 q qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max q , 3 qq , 3 9f9f9l3 q , 1f z6e1 z bhj kn 7ex f3w2 1fp4 v bxn , 5g9p , 3 r \) b8g \) r g \) r186 a86 a86 a86 5g tq , 3 \( f \) b8f \) b8g \) mr g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) b8f \) b8f \) b g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r186 \) r g \) r f \) mb8f \) 3 p v g9 4t \( n 5 p nrk \? ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? z7 \? km `sw2 7 9l 3 v , 5g3 \( f \) \) 2u 75u4 g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v mg9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v mg9v g9v 0d \) 0m75u 75u 75di 2di 2de145 ! 86 a86 lg \) r g \) r d6 a86 a86 a86 lg \) r g \) r8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8e , 3 q , v \? q30t \( om wm 5 3l ! d9 7'2tct ' q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax \? \? bhjn 7ez n n nriz \? 1t ei 4 pl 9f , 3 ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 3 q , 3 q , 8 qq 8 5'1t ' km `yd v bs3 9p 3 q , 3 \( f \) r g \) r d6 a86 a86 m9v 3 q , b8f \) b8f \) b g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) b8f \) b g \) r g \) r d6 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86r f \) b8e , 3 p 9 4t \( n u3l ! g2 0 n lj gk \? i6 max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' mas' \? \? bj 7 9f3w2 ! 3 8o 3 \( f \) 5u 75u4 \) g9v g9v g9v mg9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v mg9v g9v g9v g9v g4 \) 0d \) 0d \) u 75u 75u 75u9 2de145 145 14 a86 mr g \) r8f \) b8g \) r g \) r g \) a86 a86 a86 lg \) r f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8e , 3 q , 3 q , mb8f \) b4q , 3 qgq 4tbxn b wm4 p 1eqtm \( f0 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' \? \? wwhj kn n n bhj biz 'i 4 l 9l3 , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' mas q , 8 'ax q , 3 9f8 pl i4 \? \? bj 7 , f \) q 1fpl 33 9p 3 q , m3 \( f \) b g \) r d6 a86 tq , 3 \( f \) b8f \) b8g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) b8f \) r g \) r g \) a86 a86 a945 145 145 145 145 06 \) r8f \) b4q , 3` gq32 b wm4 `9 e 2'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? z6e1 5 \) b g \) a945 \) 2di 2di 5u 75u4 g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v mg9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g4 \) 0m75u 75u 75u 75u9 2di 2 ! 86 a86 \) r g \) r f \) b4q , 3 q , 3 \( f \) b g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) mr g \) r8f \) b4q , 3` 9v tq , 3 p 9s2 2tg 7ez gk \? w \? m1t q \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qq 9f z5'w z bhjn lj gizw \? 1z6e pl 9f , 3' , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3' q , 1f9f9f tg 9 ! 3 8ltq6 3 q , 3 \( f \) r g \) r g \) a9 , b8f \) b8f \) b8g \) r g \) r8f \) mr g \) r8f \) r g \) r186 a865 145 145 145 145 145 145 145 ! 86r f \) b8e , m3 p 9 7 \( 9c 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max q9 ne1 v q6 , b8g \) r1 \) a945 \) g9v g9v g9v g9v mg9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g4 \) 0d 5u 75 mu 75u 75u 62di \) 45 ! 86 \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r f \) b8f \) b8e , 3 q , b8f \) b g \) mr g \) r8f \) r f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b4q , v \? \( om 8n bxn 5 , 9 \( f0 m7kn nriz \? 1z4 9l2'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3' 9f8 6ei4 '1 \? wt 'i q ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' mas q , 3' q 9f9 ne1 z \) q ! 3 8ltq6 3 q , b8f \) r g \) r f \) mb8f \) r g \) r8f \) b8f \) r g \) r g \) r g \) a86 a945 145 145 22di 2di 2di 2 m5 14 a86r g \) b8f \) 3 q , 3` gq32 4 e v , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? ex 9p , 3 \( f \) r d6 \) g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v mg9v g9v g4 \) 0m75u 75u 75u 75di 25 14 \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) mr8f \) b4q , 3 p tq , 3 \( f \) b8f \) 3 q , 3 q , 3 p p tq , 3 q , v \? \( om 5 p ml ! d9 1fpl `9 3v9`uz '1z4 v9fq \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 q , 1f9f9f m9 l 4 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3' 9 ne1t \) q 5 mbs3 9p , 3 q , 3 \( f \) b g \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8g \) r g \) r186 a86 a945 145 \) 2 mdi 2di 2di 2di 25 145 ! 86 lg \) r f \) b8e , 3 p 9 , 9 0 max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' mas \? \? km , 4 3 \( g \) e22u 750d g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v mg9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9u 0m75u 75u 75u 75u9 2de14 lg \) mr g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r f \) b8f \) r8f \) b8f \) b4q , 3 q , p g9 4t 0t 3 2 bxn b wm4u pl ! d9 7'2 nrhj 'i0mfq 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 q , 3 q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q mq 8 i4 \? \? `yd tg 9l g tq , 3 \( f \) b8f \) 3 r \) b8f \) b g \) r d6 a865 145 22di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di \) 45 ! 86 lg \) r f \) b8f \) 3 p 4t q , 0qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 0 \( g \) mu 5 0iv g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v 0d \) 0d \) m0d 5u 75u 75u9 25 06 a86 a86 a86 a86 \) r g \) r g \) r g \) b8f \) b8e , m3` 9 7 \( n b wm 8om 5 pl p 1eq 7'2 3t 9f9f0 gk \? 1t ei 6e mi 6ei0mfq \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q9 l i4 z km `sw2 1fp4 v bs0tq 5g3 r \) m3 q , 3 \( f \) b g \) r186 a945 14di 2di 2u 75di 2di 2di 2di \) 45 ! 86r g \) mr8f \) b8e , 3 p 9s2 4 e9c 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max \? 1 n9 5 3 \( f \) r186 e22u 75u4 \) 0d \) 0m75u 75u 750d g9v g9v mg9v g9v g4 \) 0d \) 0d \) 0d \) u 75u 75u 75di 2di 2di 25 145 06 a86 a86 a86 lg \) r f \) b8f \) 3 p 9v gq32 b u3l p 1d9 7'2 3t 9d `p , m`p , 7klj \? 1z4 9l0q , 3 q , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' 9 ne1 , 9l mbs3 9v , 3 r \) b8g \) r186 e145 \) 2dm75u 75u 75u 75di 2 mdi 2de145 ! 86 lg \) r f \) b4q , v \? u3l ! v8qax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax f7 tr \) b d65 225 145 \) 2 mu 75u 75u 75u4 \) 0d \) 0d 5u 75u 75u 75u 75u 75u 75u 75u 75u 62 mdi 2di 25 145 ! 86 a86 lg \) lg \) r g \) r f \) b8e , 3 p 9 7 2 u3l `9 7 9 7ez nrhj biz e 0qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax ' , 3' 9 ne1 j7 9 3w2tg 9l , 6 \) r g \) a945 \) 2di 2u 75 mu 75u 75u 75u9 2di 25 145 ! 86 \) r8f \) b4q , 9 , 9 \( 9d nwk \? 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? mtg 9 tr \) b d6 e145 14 a86 e145 \) 5u 75di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2 mdi 2di 2di 2di 2di 2di 2de14 a86r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) b8f \) b8f \) b8e , m3 q , 3 p 9 7 2 u3l ! d9 7 qtm 2tcv9f0 7ez nrhj gk \? wt e v max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 1f pne1 j7 9 3w2tg 9l , 6 e14di 2di 5u 75u 75u 75u 75u 75di 25 14 a86 lg \) b8e , 3 \( 9d 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a 1f ` \( , 3 \( f \) b4q , 3 q , 3 r \) b8f \) b g \) mr g \) r f \) b g \) b8f \) r d6 a86 a86 a86r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) b8e , 3` p , m3 r \) b8f \) 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , v gq 7 q 4t 2 b u3l ! eq 7'2 9d `p m7kn bhj gk \? w \? w e 0qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qq 9f 9 \) q 2dm75u 75u 75u 75di 2di 25 06 lg \) mr g \) b8e , 3 \? \( om4 2 9d q \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' 7ex f9f9 mf3t tm \) q 5 , 7 tq , b8f \) b8f \) 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , p 3 p v 5g m9v g9 7 0tq 7 q 5g9p 3 q , 3 q , 3` 9v g9v g9v g9v gq 7 \( om m4u 3l ! d9 1eqtm \( f0 , 7klj giz gk \? wt e v , 8 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qq 8 \? \? bi `p , 2di 2di 2di 2u 75u 75 mdi 2di \) 45 06 a86 lg \) b8e , 3 5 3l ! d9 7 f0 nwk \? 1pmfq 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' z5' km `p , wm4u 34u 3 ! d9 1d9 3t 7 q 1d9 9f \) q 7 q 1fp4u 34u 3 v 0tq 5g p 9v g m9v g9v \? q 7 q32 b wm4u 3l pl ! d9 7 qtm \( f9d , 7kn biz gizw e v8qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qq 8 z bj mdi 2di 2di 2di 2di 25 14 a86 a86 \) b4q , 6 `9 9f9d 7ez e v , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 1f \? \? np 9 3t 3t f0 nrj biz bj n n n lj kn biz bj nuy 7ey m7 , tg 9l v bs0t , 7 q 7 q 7 2 b wm 5 3l ! d9 1d9 1d9 1eqtm \( 9e 7ey 7ey n lj gk \? 'i0mfq \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax q9 ne1 z 145 145 \) 2de145 14 a86 a86 lg \) b8e , 9s2 gizwt e pmfq 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 9 9l3 q , 3 'ax ' , 1f9 l z6e pne1t \? \? bhj km `yd tg p4 wmbxlt 0t \( om 5 3l p ml `9 1d9 1eqtct 9d 7ez bhj biz gk \? wt \? \? w \? w \? wt 'i0mfq \( ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? 9 ne1 45 145 145 145 ! 86 lg \) mr g \) r f \) ` v , 3 q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as q , 3' 9f9f9f9f z6ei4 \? \? km `sw2 7 9l ! 34u 34u pl `9 1d9 7'2tct 9f9f0 , `p , 7ez giz ghj bhj kn nrhj gk \? 1z4 v , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? m5 145 145 ! 86 lg \) r f \) b8e , 4t 5 p \? 1z4 9l2'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'as' 9 l f9f9 3t tg q 1d9 7 q 1d9 7 qtm 2tct 2 9f9`p n n biz bj n 7ez bizw 'i0l 9l3 , 8 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 3 qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 06 a86 \) r f \) b4q , 3` g u3l ! \? mq 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' 9 kn nux `yf9 3w2 mtm \) q 7 9 1d9 1d9 1d9 7 q 7 qtct f0 , 7ey 7kn 7ex `uy 7klj gk \? mi 4 v , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'q 9f v , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \) r f \) b4q , v \? u3l ! g2 9f9f0 , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 1f z5'w z bj 7ey `p 9 \) q 7 q 1d9 1d9 1d9 1fpl pl `9 mf0 9f0 , 7ey nriz 'i0mfq , 0qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3' q qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax , 4t \( oml ! , 7klj gk \? 1z4 q \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qq , 3 9f8 i4 \? \? km 2tm \) q 7 q 7 9 1d9 1d9l p 1eq 2 3t 3v9f0 , 7ez gk \? 1z6e pmfq 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 3l `9 \( 9d 7ez bizwt , 8 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 6 km m`p 9f3t tm 2tm \) q 7 q 7 q 7 q 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 7'2 3v9f0 , m7klj \? q qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 3 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 9f0 7ez biz 'i0mf 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax qq 8 1 z kn nuy 7ex `yf9 3t 2tm 2tg q 1d9 1d9 1d9 `9 1d9 7 qtm \( f9f9`p nrk \? 1t e v9fq 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax q , 3' q , 0qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax z \? 1z4 v , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' q 8 i4 \? \? bhj bhj kn n n mnuy `p , `yf9f3t tm 2 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 q 7'2tct nrhj gk \? m1t e v q q , 8 ' , 3 q , 3 'ax 'as qq , 3 , 3 qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ei 4 9f q , 2'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 1f9 l 5'1t \? \? wwiz giz bhj kn nux `yf9f3t 3t 3t tm 2tm 2 mtm \( 3t 9f9f0 7kn gizwt e , 0q , 3 , 8 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'as q , 3 q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' 9f9f z5'1 \? w \? w z bhj bj mnuy `p , 9f9f0 , `p , `p , `p 7kn biz \? w \? 1t ei0l pl pmf9f q , 3 , 3 q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' mas q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 9f 9f9f9l3 , 3 q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 1f z6ei z bhjn n bhj kn nuy 7ey 7ez n n n n n n n n bhj gizw \? gk \? w \? 1t ei 4 pne pmfq , 3 , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3' q , 3 9f9f9f9f pl l pl pmfq , 3 , 3 q q max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' 9 l 5'1t \? \? w \? wwizw z giz giz bhj bj mn n nrhj bhj bhj bhj bhj bhj giz giz gizw \? 1z4 pl v9fq , 0q , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax qq 9f9 l pl z4 pl z6ei 5'1t 'i 6ei 6e mi0l 9l3 q , 3 , 3 q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' z5'1t '1t \? \? w \? mw \? w \? w z giz giz bhj bhj bhj bhj bj n n n n n n nrhj biz gk \? wt 'i0l v q qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 1f pnei 6e z6ei 6ei 6e1t '1t '1t ' m1t '1z6ei 6ei4 '1t q q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'as' 9 l z6ei 6e1t '1t 'w \? w \? w \? w \? giz giz ghj bhj mn n nrhj bhj bhj giz \? wt 'i0l 9l3 , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qq 8 6e1t ' m1 \? giz giz \? w \? wt \? \? w z giz '1z6ei 6ei 6ei 6ei 6ei 4 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qq 9f9f9f pl 6ei 5'1t '1t ' mw \? w \? w z giz giz bhj biz giz giz gk \? w \? 1t e v9fq qax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 1f pne mi4 '1t '1t e1t 'w z bhjn n nrhj kn n n n n 7ey n lj gizw \? mwwiz bhj bhj gizwt v ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 qq , 3 9f9f9 l 6ei 6ei4 '1t 'w \? wwiz giz giz gizw \? w \? mwt 'i 4 9l3 , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' end part 11 14
subject roman bmp 13 14 pwiseman salmon usd edu \( cliff \) reply pwiseman salmon usd edu \( cliff \) distribution usa organization university south dakota lines 956 part 13 14 mtm \( 3v9f0 7ey 7ez n lj gk \? w '1t ei 6ei 6e1t '1z4 v q 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as f9 l mi4 `yd tm 2 1d9l mbs3 9p , 3 r \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8e , 3 p m9 4tb u3 7 f0 gk \? 1z4 9c 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as qq , 3 9f9f9f mq , 1f pl 5'1 \? bhj bj nuy `p , m`p 9f9d 3w2tg q 1d9 1d9 7 qtct f9d `p , `uy 7kn '1z6ei0l pl z6ei 6ei 6ei 4 9l3 q , 3 q 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'as' q 8 `yf9f3t \) q 5 mbs3 9p , 3 q , 3 q , m3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 p 9 4tb u3 7 f0 nrizwt 9c 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 q , 1f9f8 pne1t 'w z km 7ey `p 9f9d 9f9f9f9 , tm \) q 1d9 p 1d9 1eqtm 2 3v9 mf9f9`p n lj 'i0l pl pl pl pl pmf9l0q , 8 q , 3 q , 8 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' 9f9f9 7 9 \( 9 ml 3 9v p p tq , 3 q , 3` gq 4tb vp \( nrizwt 9c ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' 9f8 z6ei 6ei0l pl pl z6ei ey m`p , `p , , `p , `yf9 3t 3t 3w2tg q 1d9 1d9 1eq 7 q 7 qtm \( f0 , 7kn bizwt ei 4 pl v8 v9fq , 0q , 3 , 3 qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 3 q mq 8 1 \? f \( 94 v bs0tq 5g9v g9v g9p v \? \( om4 `9 \( m`uz biz e9c 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 1f9 l i4 '1t '1t ei 6e mi 6ei0l pl z5'1 z kn 7ex , `p , `yf9 3t 3t 3w2tm 2 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 q 7'2 3v9f0 n lj ' pl 9f , 3 q , 3 , 3 'as 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a 1f pl i4 \? \? 7 9 5 mbs0tq 7 9v g9v g m9 7 \( nriz 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qq , 1f9 l pl i4 \? \? w \? w \? w 'i0l z6ei 6ei 6e1t \? \? ghjn 7ey `p , `p , m7ey `p , `p 3t tg q 7 q 7 q 7 q 2 7 q 7 q 7'2tm \( 9f9`uz nrizwt e pl 9l3 , 8 'ax q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qq 8 9 \) q 5 g9 7 q 4t \( om4 `9 n lj ' v8qax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max ' , 3 9f9f9 l 5'1t \? \? giz bj n n nriz \? w \? w '1t '1t \? \? kn n 7ey 7ey 7ey 7 , f9f9f9f9`p , `p 2 mtm 2tg q 7 q 7 q 7 q 2tm \( 9f9`p n lj 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max qq 7 , tg 94 7 9v \? `9 \( f9d 7klj , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 3 q 9f pl z6e1t \? \? bhjn `p , 7ey `p m7ez nrhj bhj bhj giz bhjn n n n n n n n n bhj bj n n nuy m7 , `p , `p , `p , `yf9f9d 3w2tm 2 7 q 7 q 7'2tm \( 3t 9d `uz \? , 0qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? bj `yd 1fp4 v bs0t \( n 5 34 `9 2 9d 7klj gk \? 1pmfq \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' q , 3 q , 1f9 l i4 'w z bj m7ey `p 9 3t 7ey n n n n nrhj bj bj biz ghj gizw \? w \? w \? giz bhjn n 7ey 7ey n 7 , `p , f9d 3t 2 mtm \) qtm 2tct 3v9`uz nrizwt , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a 0 i4 \? \? km 7 9 ml ! 34u 34 p 1eq 2 9d `uy 4 9l2'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 9f9f pl z6e1t \? \? bj nux f9d tm 2tm 2 7 q 7 qtm 2tm 2tm \( 9f9f9f9 mf0 , `p , 7ez nrhj giz \? 1t '1 \? 1t '1t '1t 'wwiz bhj ghj biz bj n n nuy `p , 3v9f0 7kn gk \? 1t e v ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' mq 8 i4 \? \? bj 7 9 \) q 1fpl ! d9 7 qtct f9f9`p nrk \? , 3 ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax ' , 3 9 l 5'w z ghjn 7 9 2tg 9 1d9 pl p ml ! d9 1fpl ! eq 7'2tm 2tm 2 9d `p , 7ez nrhj '1z6e pnei 4 m9f8 5'1t \? \? w \? w z ghj bhj giz bhjn n 7ey 7ey 7 , 7 , `uy mn n nrhj 'i 4 9l0q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 68 1 z km `yd tg q 2tm \( qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qq , 1f z5'w z kn n n nux f9f9 mf9d \) q 1d9l ! 34u 34u 3l 34 u34 `9 1d9 7 qtm 2 9d 7ez biz 'i0mfq q , 3 qq , 0q , 3' q 9f9 l z6e1 \? giz giz \? 1t '1t \? \? mwwiz giz ghj bhj biz gizw zw \? 1z4 q , 0qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 7ex f9d 3v9 mf9f9`p , `p , `p q 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 1f z6e1t \? \? mwwiz bhjn n nux tm \) q 1d9l pl pl ! 34u 34u 3l p 1eq 9d 7 nrhj gizw 'i0o , 3 'ax 'as' q , 0q , 3' q 9f pl z5' mw z \? wt 'i 6e pl pl 6ei4 'w \? w '1t e pl pl 9l3 q ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as f mi4 z km 7 , `p , 7ey 7ey 7ey 7ey e 0qax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'as' 9 ne1t \? \? wwiz bhj bhj bhj kn nuy `p , `p , f9d tg q 1d9 1d9l pl p 1eqtm 2tcv9f0 n n biz giz \? 1z4 0qax ' , 3 l pl 9f8 'w \? 1z6e pmf9l0q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 1f9f9f m9l3 , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'q kn n n n n n n n n n n nrizwt e v max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q9 nei4 '1t \? \? w \? giz bhj giz bhj bj mn n nuy `yd 3w2tm 2tm 2 7 q 7'2tm 2 3v9f0 7ey nrhj '1t ' mw \? 1t '1t ei 4 pl pl pl pl z6ei 6ei 6e pmfq , 0q max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'as q , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? bhj bhj bhj bhj mn n nriz 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 68 i4 \? \? ghj giz bj n n n n n lj bhj kn 7ex `yf9 3t 2tm \) q 7 q 7 q \( f9f9 m`uy n lj bizw '1z6e1t \? \? w \? w \? w \? w \? 'i 4 v9fq , 1f , , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' 9f9f9f q qq , 0q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as f z7 \? giz giz bhj bhj kn bizwt e v8qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax qq 8 z5'1 \? ghjn n 7ey 7ey 7ey 7ey 7ey 7 9f3t tm \) q 7 q 7 q 7 q \( 9f9`uy n lj biz gk \? w '1t '1 \? giz giz bhj bizwt 'i 6e pl 9l3 , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' 9 l 6ei 4 q q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax ' , 68 1 \? giz giz giz bhj gk \? wt e v , 8 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qq , 1f9 nei4 `p , `p , 2 7 q 1d9 1d9 1eq \( f0 7kn biz gk \? wt 'i 6e mi 6ei4 'w z giz bhj biz q qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'as' 9 l i4 'w \? 1t ei 6e pl pl v9f9l3 q q , 3 qax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as f 'w \? w \? w \? wwiz \? 1t e v , 3 qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' q 8 z5'1 z km `p 9f9d 3t tm 2tm 2tg q 7 q 1d9 1d9l p 1eqtct mf0 nwk \? w '1z6e pl pne1t '1t \? \? wt 'i 6ei0mfq 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qq 8 i4 '1 z gizw \? wt '1t '1t ' q , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? 9 ne1t '1t ' m1t '1 \? wt '1t q qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 0q , 8 ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 1f z5'w z km 7 9 3w2tm \) q 7 q 7 9 1d9 1d9 ml `9 1fpl `9 7 qtct 9d nrizwt 'i0mf9l3 , 3 q , 3 q , 3' q , 3 q 9f , 3 q , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3' 9f8 z5'1 \? giz giz giz giz gizw \? wt '1t pl 9f q qax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max ' , 1f z6ei 6ei 5'1t '1t 'i 6ei0mfq qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3' q , 1f pnei4 '1t '1t e v q qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? 9 ne1 `yf9 3w2 mtm 2tg q 7 q 7 9 pl pl `9 1eq 2 lj gk \? wt e v9fq ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 q , 1f9 nei 6e1t \? \? w z ghj bhj bhj bhj bhj biz gizw \? w \? m1t '1t ei0l 9l3 q 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as f9 l 6ei 6ei4 '1t ei 6ei0mfq , 0qax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' mas' q , 0q , 3 9 ne1t 'w z giz gizwt ei0l pmfq , 0qax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q mq , f9f9 \) q 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 q 2 3v9`uz bk \? 1z6e v q qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 q , 8 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 9f9f pnei4 '1t 'w \? w z bhjn n n n mn 7kn n n bhj bhj biz gk \? w '1t e pmfq 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qq 8 6ei 6e1t '1t e mi 6ei 4 9l3 , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as q , 3' q , 1f z5'w \? ghj kn n n nrhj gk \? w ' 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' 9 ne1 z km 7 , 2 7 9 1d9 7 q 7'2tm 2 mtm 2tm \( 3v9f0 nrizwt e pmfq qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax qq , , 3 , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 9f8 z6e1t 'w \? mw \? w \? ghj kn nuy 7ey 7ex 7ey 7ey n n n n n lj biz giz ' mi0mfq \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 1f z6ei 6ei 6ei4 'i 4 pl 9l3 q 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qq , 3 9 ne1 z kn n n nuy m`p , `p , `uy nriz 'i0mf9l3 q , 3 q , 3 q 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as qq , 1f z6e1 z kn 7ex `yf9 3w2tg qtm 2tct tm 2tct f9d `p nrhj 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'q 8 pl ' , 3 q , 3 mq , 3 9 l z6e1t \? \? w z gizw \? giz bhjn 7ey `p , `p , `p , `p m7ey 7ey 7ez n n nrhj , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'as' 9 l 6ei 6ei 6ei 6e v9fq , 3 , 3 qax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' 9f8 i4 ' 7 nriz \? 1t ei0l pl v9fq q max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qq , 3 9f8 z6e1t \? \? bhj km 7 9 3t 3t 3t f9f9f3t 9d 7ez gk \? wt '1z4 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' 6e mi 6ei 4 9f q , 3 9f9f9f9f9 l 5'1 \? wwiz giz giz giz ghj kn mnuy 7 , `p 9f9f9f9d `p , `p , `p , 7ey 7ey n lj 'i0o , 8 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qq 9f9 l pnei 6ei 4 v9f9l3 , 3 qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'as' 9 nei4 \? \? km `yd 3w2tm 2tm 2tm 2 3t 3t f0 n lj gk \? mwt '1t 'i 6e v9fq , 0q , 3 q , 3 q , 0q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax qq , 1f9 l bj nuy `yf9f9f9 3t f0 , 7ey m7kn gk \? w \? wt ' v , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'as' 9 l i4 \? \? w \? w \? w 'i 4 pl pl pnei 5'1 \? bhj mn lj bhj giz giz bj n 7 , `p , `p , `p , `p , m`p , 7kn 'i0mf , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 1f9 l pl pnei 4 v9f9f , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 9 ne1t z 2 7 q 1d9 1d9 1d9 7 9 7'2tm \( 9d `uy nrhj bhj gk \? wt 'i 6ei 6ei4 '1z6e v , 8 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as qq 8 z5'w z bj n m7 , f9f9f9d `p , 7ez gk \? 6ei 6e 0qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' 9 ne1 \? bhj bhj bhj gk \? wt ' m1t \? \? w z bhjn n n n bhj giz bhj kn 7ex `p 9f9f9f9f9 , `p , 7ez gk \? 1pmfq 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'as' 9f8 pl pl 4 v q , 3 q qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 9 ne1 \( 9l ! 3 wm wm4u 34 pl ! d9 1eq 2 9f9`p , `p , 7kn n n bhj bhj bhj gk \? wt , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' 9f9f9f , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as q , 3 q , 1f pne1t \? \? w z bhjn n 7ey 7ez n lj bhj gk \? i0l ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3' 9f8 i4 \? \? ghjn n n n n lj giz giz \? w z giz bhjn n nuy n n bhj bhj bj nuy `p , f9f9f9d 3t 3v9f9f9f9f9f9d , 7kn gk \? m1z4 q 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qq 8 pl z6ei 6e pmfq , 3 q , 0q , 8 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 1f9 ne 9 \( 9l 8n 0t 2 bxom 5 34u pl `9 7'2tct 9f9f0 , m`uy 7ey 7ex 7ey 7kn gk \? 1z6e pmf9l0q , 8 'ax 'as qq 9f pne1t e mi0l 9f q , 3 q , 0q , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'as q , 3' 9f9f pl z6e1t \? \? wwiz biz bhj giz giz \? m1z4 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax q , 3 q 9f z5'wwiz km 7ey 7kn n n nrhj bhj giz bhj bj mn 7kn 7ey n n n n n n nuy 7 , `yf9f9f9 3t 3t 3t 3t 9f9 mf0 , 7klj 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 0 z6ei 6ei q , 3 q qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax ' , 1f9 7 , tg 94 v bs0tq 5g9 7 0tbxn b wm 5 3 m4 `9 7 qtm 2 3t f9d `p , `yf9f9d `p , 7kn gizw '1t ei 6ei 4 pl pnei4 'w \? w '1t ei 4 pmf9l3 q , 3 q , 0q , 3 qax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'as 'ax q , 3 q , 3 'ax q , 3 q , 3 q , 1f9 l 9f9f9 nei4 ' mw z giz gizw '1t , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 1f9f8 n n n n n mn n n lj kn nrhj kn nuy 7ex `uy 7ey 7kn nuy 7ex `p , `yf9f9d 3t 3t 3t 3t 3t `uz nrizwt ' v q 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as f pnei 6ei4 'i 4 v9f9f q , 0q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 1f 7 8ltq6 g9p g mq 7 0tbxn wm4u pl `9 7 q 7'2tm \( f9f9`p , `p 7kn bhj biz bhj giz gk \? w \? w \? giz giz gizw 'wt 'i 4 i0l pl v9fq , 3 , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 q , 3 q , 3 'ax q , 3' q , 0qax 'ax 'ax q mq , 3 9f9fq , 1f9 l z6ei 5'1t '1t '1t ei0l 9f q , 3 q ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' q , 1f pl i4 \? \? ghj bhj kn n n n n n n n n n 7ex `p 9f0 , `p m7ey 7 , `p , `p , f9f9 3t 3t 3t 3t 3t 3t , m7ez gk \? 1z4 9l3 , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax q9 nei 6ei4 '1t ei0l v9fq , 3 q q , 8 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qq , 1f pne1 9 \) q ! 34 v bs3 q6 g9v \? q30tbxn b wm4 pl p 1d9 7'2tm \( f9d `p , mf0 , `p 7ey 7ey 7ey 7kn n n 7ey 7ez n n n lj bhj bhj bhj biz mw \? wt '1t '1z6ei0l 9f q q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 3 q , 3 'ax 'as q mq , 3 q qq q , 3 qq , 1f pl pl i0l pl pl l z5'1t 'i 6e pl pl pmfq 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 1f9f8 z5'1 z ghj bhj bj n n n n n n n n mn 7ey `p , f9f9f9d `p 7ex `p , `p , `yf9f9d 3t tm 2 3t 3t 3t 3t 3t , 'i0mfq , 0qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 68 6ei4 'w '1z6e pmf9l3 mq , 3 q , 0qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? 9f8 f3w2 1fp4u 8lt , 7 9v gq 7 \( n u34u pl `9 1d9 7 qtm \( f9d `p , , `uy 7 , `p , `p , `p `p , `p , `p , 7ey mn n bhj gk \? w \? 1t 'i 6e pmf9l3 q q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 q , 3 q , 8 'ax ' max 'ax q , 8 'ax 'as q , 3 q , 3 9f q , 1f9 l pl pne1t '1t '1z6e mi 4 9f8 z5'1t '1t ei 6ei 5'1t '1 \? wt 'i0o ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 3 9f8 z6e1 \? wwiz bhj bhjn n n n n n n n n 7ey 7 , `p , `p , 3t 3t 3t 3v9f9f9f9f9f9d `p 7klj e v mq 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a 1f z6ei 5' m1t '1z6ei0l , 3 , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'as' q 9f z6e1 z km 1d9l 3 v bs0tq 7 q 7 2 u34u pl `9 1eq 7'2tm 2tct 3t , `yf9 3t f9f9 3t f3t 9f9f9d `uy 7ey 7ey 7ey n lj bizw '1t , 3 q max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max ' , 3 q , 3 q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 3 q , 3 q , 1f9f8 z6ei 4 pmf m9f8 z6e1t '1 \? 1t '1z6ei0l pl 6e1t '1t '1z6e1t \? \? giz gk \? m1z4 v , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' m9 l pl i4 \? \? w z giz bhj bj n n n n n n nuy 7ey 7 , `yf9f9f9 , `yf9f9f9 3t 3t 3t 3t 3t f9f9f9d m`p , `p , `uz 9l3 , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'as' 9 nei 5'1t 'i 6e pl , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 1f pl pne1t \? \? bj \) q ! 34 wm mbxn 0t 0t \( om 5 3l pl `9 1d9 7 qtm 2tm 2tm \( 3t 3t 3t f3t 2tm 2tm 2tm 2 2 3t f9d `p , `p , `p , `p 7kn nriz mw '1z4 v q 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 3 q , 8 'ax q , 3 q , 3 q 9f9f9f pl pl 5'1t ei 6e pl z6ei4 '1 \? 1t '1 \? w '1t \? \? w z ghj bhj giz bhj giz 'i 4 v9fq qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 q , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 1f z6ei 5'1 \? w \? wwiz ghj kn n n n n m7ex `p , `p , `p 9f9f9f9d 9f9f9d `p , `yf9f3t f9f9 9f9f9f9f9f9 mf9d 3t 3t 9f9f0 , `p , `p , `uy 7klj gk \? 1z4 9l0qax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' 9 nei 6ei 6ei 4 q , 3 , 3 ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qq , 1f pnei 5'1 \? wwhj mn `sw2 1fp4u 8n bs0t 2 bxom 5 3l pl pl pl p 1d9 7 q mtm 2tm 2tm 2tm 2tct 2tm 2 7 qtm 2tg q 7 qtm \( f9f9f0 , `p 9 , 7ey 7ey nrhj 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as q , 3 q , 3' q , pl z6ei 6e1t '1t '1t '1t ei4 'w z bhj kn bhj bhj kn 7kn bhjn n n nrhj gk \? 1z4 v9f9f , 8 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' mas qq , 0q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 9 nei 6e1t \? \? w \? mw \? giz ghj n n `p 9f9d f9f9f9f9`p `p 9 3v9f9d `p 7ey 7ez n n biz mwt e pmfq \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' 9 nei 6ei 4 pl v mq , 3 q , 3 , 0q , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 1f m9 l z6e1t \? \? w z km `sw2 1d9l mbxn bxlt \( n b wm u34u 34u 3 m4u pl pl `9 1eq 7 q 7 qtm 2tm 2tm 2tm 2tm 2tm 2 3w2tm 2tm 2 mtm \( `p , `p nrhj 'i0mfq 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'as qq , 3 q , 3 9f8 v9fq , 3 q 9f pl z6ei4 '1 \? w \? mw \? w z giz ghjn 7ex `p , `uy 7ex `p 7kn n 7ez n n gk \? m1t e pmf9l3 , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 3 q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3' 9f8 z6e1t '1 z gk \? w z bhj bhjn n nuy 7 , , f9f9f9f9f9d m`p 7kn n n nrhj bhj 'i0mf9l3 , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' 9 l pl 4 pl v9fq q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax ' , 3' q 9f9 ne1t \? \? wwiz km `yd tg 9l mbxn bxn mb wm 5 3 5 34u 34u 34u 3l pl `9 1d9 1eq 2tm 2tm 2tm 2tm 2 mtm \( 3t 3t 3t 3t , n lj mwt e v , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as qq , 1f9f8 9f9f9f9f9 l pl z6e mi4 'w \? w \? w z ghj bhj bj n n 7ey `p , `yd `p , `uy 7ey 7ey m7kn bj n n n n nrhj gk \? v , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as q , 8 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qq , 1f pnei 5'1t '1 \? giz giz bhj bhj mn n 7ey `p 3t 3t 3t 9f9 m`p , `p , `p , `p , `p , 7ey 7ez bhj bhj giz gk \? 1z4 v q 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax pl pl , 0qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as q , 3' 9 l z5'wwiz bj nux \( 9 ml 8n 0t 0tbxn bxn wm u34u 34u pl pl 3l pl `9 1eq 7'2tm 2tm 2 7 q 7'2tm 2tm \( f9f9f9d 3t f9d 3v9f0 nrizwt 9f , 3 q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 qq 8 i4 '1 \? mw \? w '1t '1t \? \? w \? w z bhj bj n n 7ey `p , `p , f9f9f9d f3t mtm \( 3v9f0 , `p , 7 , `p , `uy 7ey 7ey 7kn v q , 0qax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as qq 9f9 nei 6e mi4 '1t \? \? giz bhj bhj kn n n 7 , `yf9 3t 3t 3t 3v9f9d 9f9 3t 3v9f9d `uy 7ey 7ey 7ey 7ez n n biz giz \? mw \? wt 'i0mfq , 0q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qq 8 pl q , 0q , 8 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 3 qq 8 5' m1t \? \? 9 \) q 5 8n bs0t 0t 0t 0t \( n bxn wm wm wm m4u 34u 34u 3l p 7 q 2tm 2tg q 7 q 2tm 3t 9f9 9f9f9f9f9 3t 3v9`uz gk \? 1z4 9f q , 3 , 3 qax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3' mq , 3 q 9f z6e1t \? \? w z bj n n n n n n n n bhjn 7ex `p 9f9d 3t tm \) q 7 9 7 q 1d9 1d9 1d9 7 q 7'2tm 2tg q \( f0 7ey 7kn bizwt e v q , 0q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'as' q 9f pl z6ei4 '1t \? \? giz bhj bhjn n nuy 7 , f9d 2 3t 3t 3t 3t 3v9f9f9f9f9f9d 3t 9f9f0 , 7ey 7kn n n mn n bhj gizw '1t '1t '1t '1z6e v q qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qq 8 pl v9f9l3 mq , 3 q , 3 , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax q , 1f z6e1 z bhjnux f3w2 1fp4u 8n 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t 0tbxn bxom 8n bxom wm 5 3l `9 1eq 7 q 7 q 7 q 2tm 2 3t 3t 3t 9d 7klj \? m1z4 v9f9f q , 0q , 3 q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 mq , 3 q , 3 q q , 3 9f8 z5'1t \? \? wwiz kn 7 , `yf9 3t 3v9f9f9 m`p , `p , f9f9 3t tm 2 7 q 1fpl 34u 34 wm wm wm v b u34u p ml pl `9 7 qtm \( 9d 7kn bizwt 9f9fq , 3 q qq , 0q , 3 qax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' q , 1f9f8 6e1t '1 \? giz bhj bhj kn nuy `p 9 3t tm 2tm \( 3t 3t 3t 3v9f9f9f9f9f9d 3t 9f9`p 7ey nrhj giz gk \? gk \? wt pl pnei 6ei0l 9l0q max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 1f9f8 9f q , 3 q , 0qq , 3 , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qq 8 i4 z kn 7ex `yd tg 9l ! 34u 8n 0t 3 q 7 q 7 9v \? q 4t 0t 0t 0t 2 b wm 5 3l p 1d9 1d9 1d9 7 q 7 q 7'2tm \( 3t 3t 3t 3t 3t 9f9f9f9 3t 9f9`uz nrhj \? , 3 q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 q , 3 q 9f9f9f m9 l pl pl i0l pl pl 6ei0l v8 pl i4 \? \? wwiz kn 7ey `yf9 mf3t tm \) q 7 q 7 q 7 qtm 2 3w2tm 2 7 q 1d9 p4 wmbxn bxn bs0t , 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 q 4tbxom 5 34u 3l `9 1eq gk \? m9f8 pl 9f q , 0qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as q mq , 1f9 nei4 '1 \? w \? giz giz bhj bj n `yf9 3t tm 2tm \( 3t 3t 3t 3t \( 9d `p 7klj gk \? 1t ei 6e1t ei0l m9f9fq , 1f9f8 pl v9fq 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , q , 3 , 3 qq qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax ' , 3 qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 1f m`p 9 \) q 1fpl ! 34u mbxn 3 q 7 9v g9v g9v \? 9v gq 7 q6 gq 4t mbxom 5 34u 34u 3l pl p 1d9 1eq 7 q 7'2tm 2tm 2tm 2tm 2tm \( 3t 3t , 7kn biz gk \? 1t '1t 'i 4 pl 9f9f mq , 0q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 qq , 1f9f9f pl pnei 6ei4 '1t 'i 6ei 6ei4 '1t '1z6ei 5'w z bj 7ey `p 9f9d 3w2tg q 1d9l pl pl pl `9 1d9 1fpl pl 3 m4 v , 7 q 7 9v g9v g p g9v g9v g9v v \? q 7 2 bxn b wm4u p 1eqtm \( f0 nrk \? wt 'i 4 pl 9f9fq qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qq , 1f z6ei 5'1 \? w \? w \? w z ghj bhj km `yf9 2tm 2tct 3t 3t 3v9f9f9f9f9f9d f3t 3t f9d `uy e pmfq , 3 , 3 q , 3 qq , 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 q , 3 q q , 3 qax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 q , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 1f z6e1 z bj 7 9 2 1d9 pl 34 v bs0tq 7 q 5g9v g9v g m9v g9v g9v g9v \? q32 b wm wm 8om 5 3l pl `9 1d9 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 q 7'2tm 2tm 2tct 3t , `p 7kn bhj giz mw \? wt '1t ei0l v9fq , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 3 9f9f pnei 6ei 6ei4 '1t '1t '1t '1t \? \? mw \? wwizw \? w \? bj 7 , f9f9 3t 3w2 7 9 1d9l p4u 34u 34u 3 m4 wm4u 34u 3 wmbxn 3 9v p 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3` p p 9v \? q 7 `9 7'2 9d 7klj gk \? 1t e pmfq , 0q , 3 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qq 9f pl 5' m1t '1t '1t \? \? w z giz bhjnux `yd 2tm 2 3t 3t 3v9f9d `yf9 3t 3t f9d 7klj 'i0l 9l3 q , 3 q qax 'ax 'ax q , 3' mq , 0qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as qq , 3 q , 1f m9l3 q , 0q , 3 qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 q , 3 q , 8 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' 9 ne1t \? \? bhjn `yd tg 9 pl 34 wmbxn 0t 0tq 7 q 5g9v \? 9v p 9v gq 4t 0t 2 bxn b wm 5 34u 3 ml `9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 q 7'2tm 2 3t 3t 9f9 mf9d `uy n n bhj gizw '1 \? wt 'i 4 pl pl pl 9f9f9f q q max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 qq , 1f9f8 pl z6ei 6e mi4 '1t '1t '1t \? \? w \? wwiz giz giz ghj km `yf9 2 7 9 1d9l p m4u 3 wm wm wm v bxlt 0t 0t 0tq 5g9v 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , mb8f \) 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 p v g9 7 2 b u3l ! \? m1t ei0mfq , 0q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax ' , 3' 9f9f z6ei 6ei4 '1 \? w \? giz bj 7 , `yd tm 2 mtm \( 3t 3t 9f9`p , `p , `yf9f9f9 3t 3v9`uz nrizwt e9f , 3 q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax qq , 0q , 3' q , 3 , 3 q , 0qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 3' mq q , 3 qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 f9 ne1 z bj n 7 9 3w2 end part 13 14
subject roman bmp 12 14 pwiseman salmon usd edu \( cliff \) reply pwiseman salmon usd edu \( cliff \) distribution usa organization university south dakota lines 956 part 12 14 max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max ' , 3 9 l 5'w \? w \? w \? giz bj n 7ey 7ey 7 , `p , `p m`p , `p bhj kn n `p , `p nrhj , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' q , 1f pl 6ei 6ei 5'1t '1t \? \? mw \? \? w \? w \? w \? wt '1z4 v , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax qq , 1f9 nei 6ei4 \? \? wwiz ghj bhj kn n `yf9f3t 3t , f9f9f0 , `p 7kn giz gk \? 1t e 2' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qq , 1f pl pl pl z6ei 5'1t '1t \? \? w \? w \? wt '1t 'i 4 v q qax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as qq , 3 9f8 i4 '1t 'w \? w z giz bhjn m7 , `p , f9d tm \) q 7 q 1eq 2tg q 7'2tm 2tm 2tm 2tct mn n gk \? 1z6e pmfq 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3' q , 3 q , 3 q , 1f9f9f pl pnei 5'1t '1t '1t ' m1t 'i 6ei0mfq , 3 , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as q , 3 q , 3 q 9f z6ei4 'wwiz bhj kn mn n n n nuy 7 , f9d 3t tg q 1d9 pl pl pl `9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 7ez 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q 9f m9 l pl pl l pl pl v9fq , 3 , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 3' q , 1f9f8 pne1t \? \? mwwiz bhjn 3w2tm 2 7 q 1d9 pl pl p4u 34 wm 5 3l `9 1d9 1d9 7 q 7 q 2tm 2tct f0 n e pmf , 8 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 3 q , 3 qq q , 3 q , 3 qq , 3 q , 3 q q , 3 q q , 3 q , 3 q 9f9f9f9f q , 0q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3' mq , 1f9 ne1t 'w z bhjn `yf9 \) q 7 9 7 9 1d9 pl pl pl p ml 34u 34 wm u34u 34 pl pl p 1eqtm 2tm \( 3t 3t f9d 7ez gk \? 1z4 9c 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max ' , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax qq , 3 q , 1f z6e1 \? ghj kn 7ex 9 pl pl p ml 34u wm wm wm 8n bxn b wm 5 3 u34u 34 u3l ! d9 7 q 2 3t n lj ' v , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as qq , 3 q , 1f z5'1 \? wwhj kn 7ex f3w2 mtg 9 pl 34u 34u 0t 0t , 7 q 4t \( om v bxn mbxn b wm4u pl ! \( f9d f9f9`p n n 9l0qax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as q , 3 qq , 1f9 l i4 'w \? ghj kn 7ex `yd tg 9 pl ! 34u 34 wm 8lt , 7 9v g9v \? q 5g9v \? bxn bs0t 0t \( n bxn p bhj gizwt ' mi 4 q 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as q , 3 mq , 1f pl i4 \? \? w z giz bhjnuy `yd tm \) q 1d9l ! 34u v bs3 q6 g p 3` 9v g9v g9 7 q30t 0t 3 0t wm u3l `9 7'2 9d m7ez bhj giz gk \? 1t 9l3 q 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'as q , 3 qq , 3 q , 1f z6e1t \? \? w \? giz bhjn 7 9 \) q 7 9 p m4 wmbxn , 5g9p 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3` v g9v g9v g9v v gq32 mb wm4 p 7'2 9d `uy 7ez n n n n gk \? 1z4 9l0q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as qq , 3 q 9f z5'1t '1t \? \? w \? wwiz kn mnuy `yd tg q 1fp4u mbs3 q6 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , m3 q , 3 q , 3` gq30t \( om 5 p 7ex `p , 7ey nriz 'i0o , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' q , 3 q , 3 q qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 q , 1f pne1t ' mi 6ei 6e1 \? ghj kn \) q 1fp4 wmbs3 , 3 r \) b4q , 3 q , b8f \) mb8f \) b8e , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3` 9s2 5 p 7'2tm 2 9d 7ey `p 9 3t 9d nrizw \? wt 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' q 9f pl 4 9f9fq ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max q , 3 9f8 pl pl 9 nei4 'wwiz bj 2 p4 v , , m3 r \) b4q , b8f \) b8f \) b8e , 3 q , 3 \( f \) b8f \) b4q , 3 q , v gq32 5 p \( 9f9 m`p , 7ey 7 , giz gk \? 1z4 9c 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3' 9 l mi4 \? \? w \? 1t e v , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3' q , 3 q 9f8 6e1t \? \? gj 7 9 2 1fp4 v , 5g tq , 3 q , 3 q , 3 r \) 3 q , 3 q , 3 \( f \) b4q , 3 q , 3 q , v g9v \? 4u 7ey 7 , 7klj bhj ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'a 3 q e1 \? bhj gk \? 1z4 9l0qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 1f pne m1t \? \? wwhjnux \) q ! 3 8lt , 5g tq , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , m3 q , p g9v \? q 7 2 5 pl ! eq 2 , `p , f9f9f0 , `uy mn lj gk \? 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 1f kn nrhj 'i0o q 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 3 q , 3 qq , 1f z6e1t \? \? f9d 1fp4 v 3 9v g tq , 3 q , 3 q , m3 q , 3 r \) b8e , 3 q , 3 p 9v \? 0t 0t \( n 5 pl ! eq 7 q 2 3t 3t mf9d bk \? 1z4 9l0q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 0 i4 \? \? 7kn \? 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 qq , 3 q 8 i4 'wwiz v bs0t mq 7 9v g p , 3 q , 3 q , 3 r \) b8f \) 3 q , 3 q , v \? 0t 0tbxn b u3l ! 3 ml `9 7 q 7 q 7 q 7'2tm 2tct 3v9f0 nrhj e v9fq 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 0 mi4 \? \? , 7ez v9fq qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as q , 3' q , 3 q 8 i4 \? \? giz bj 7ey tg q ! 3 v 3 q 7 q6 3 q , 3 q , b8f \) b8f \) b4q , 3 q , v gq30t mq 4t 2 b wm4u 34u pl ! d9 1d9 1d9 1eq 2tm \( f0 nrhj ' , 0qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3' 9 ne1 z kn 7ex `uy gizwt ei0l 9f9fq 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as q , 3' q 9f9f8 mi4 'w z bj 7ey 7 9 3w2 7 mbxlt 0tq 5g p 3 r \) b8f \) b8f \) mb8e , 3 q , 3` g9 7 3 q 4t 0t 2 bxom 5 3l `9 1d9 pl `9 1eq 7'2 9e nriz \? 1z4 9l3 , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'as qq , 9f8 i4 'wwiz bj nuy `uy nriz 'i 4 m9f9fq qax ' , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' mas' q ' 9f8 pl 5'1 \? ghjn 7ey `yf9 \) q ! 3 8n g p , 3 r \) b8f \) b8f \) b8e , 3 q , 3 p 9v g9v g9v g9 7 q30t \( n bxom 5 3 m4 p 1d9l pl `9 7 qtct 7klj \? 1z4 9l0q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max q , 3 q qax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 0qq 9f pnei 6e1 z m`uz nriz '1z6e pmfq , 0q , 8 q , 3 q , 3 qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 qq 8 i0l z6e1 \? wwiz km 7ey 7 9f3w2 1fp4 wmbxlt , 5g9p , 3 r \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) 3 q , 3 q , 3 p 3 q , 3 q , 3 p m9v g9 7 2 bxom wm4 p pl p 1d9 lj ei0l 9c qax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qq , q 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 1f9 nei4 \? \? w \? bj nrhj bj nrhj '1z4 v9fq , 0q , 3 q , 3' q qax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qq , 1f i4 \? \? wwiz bj nuy 7 9 2 1fp4u mbxlt 3 9p , 3 r \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b4q , 3 q , m3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3` p g9 7 5 3l p 1d9 7klj mwt ei0mfq 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax f pmf9f , 8 'ax 'ax q bhj bhj bhj bj n lj bhj bj bizw '1z4 9l3 , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 3 q , 1f9 l i4 'wwiz bj 7 9f3w2 1d9l ! 34 , 3 \( f \) b8f \) mb8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) 3 q , 3 q , p p g9 4tb u3l `9 7 q 7'2 9d nrizwt e v9fq 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax e mi 4 9c 'ax 'as' z bhj kn bhj ghj giz bizw \? giz gk \? wt ' m1z4 q q , 3 ' , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as q , 3 9 l i4 \? \? wwhj km 1d9 p4u 3 8ltq6 3 r \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) 3 q , 3 q , m3` 9 4t \( om 5 p 1eqtm \( `uy nrizwt e v , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' q , 0q , 3 q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax e v q q , 1f \? \? bj 7ey 7klj giz gk \? \? m1z4 i4 'w \? 1t ei0mfq , 0q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' 9 ne1t \? \? bj tg 9 p4u pl mbs3 9p , 3 \( f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) r8f \) mb8f \) b8f \) b8e , 3 q , 3 p 9v \? \( n b wm 5 , 9 \( f0 gizwt e v , 8 ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax ' , 3' q , 3 q , 3 , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax l i4 z bj 7 , giz \? wt 'i0l 9 l z4 pl v9fq qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'a 1f9 f3w2 7 9 ! 34u 3 8o 9v 3 q , b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) mb8f \) b8g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r8f \) b8e , 3 q , 3 p 9 7 2 u3l ! g2 9e mn lj 'i0o , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as q , 3' q , 3 9f9f9f q q , 8 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' mi 6ei4 \? \? bj 7ey 7klj giz ei 6e q , 3 q , 0q , 8 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qq 8 z km `yd \) q 1fp4 v bxltq6 m3 q , b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) b8f \) b8f \) 3 q , 3` g m9 7 \( n 5 , 9 \( `uy q 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as q , 3 qq , 1f9l3 mq , 3 q , 0q , 3 qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'w z ex f0 n lj gk \? wt ei 4 po q q , 3 q max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' 9 m' bhjnux f 2 1fp4 wmbs3 q6 g tq , 3 \( f \) b8g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) mr g \) r f \) b8f \) 3 q , 3` 7klj ' 2'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max q , 3 q , 3 qq , 3 q q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax nriz e mi 4 v , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , \? \? km f3w2 1fpl ! 3 8ltq6 tq , 3 r \) b8f \) r g \) r g \) r186 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 \) r g \) r f \) b8f \) 3 q , p g9 4tb u3 7 ` lj e 2'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3' q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 0q , 3 q q , 3 qax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'as q 9f9f ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? 2 mtm \( 0 ei 6e v , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 68 7 9 \) q 1fp4 v tq , 3 r \) b8g \) mr g \) r d6 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86r g \) r f \) b8f \) b4q , 3` g 9l2'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3' q , m9l3 q , 3 q , 0q , 3 q , 8 'ax q , 3' q q , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'as q , 3 qq , 3 q , 3 q , 3 9f8 pl 9l3 , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax gk \? wt e pmfq , 0qax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? km 7 9 \( 9l tq , 3 \( f \) b8g \) r g \) a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 lg \) r f \) b8e , 3 p 9 6 e9c 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max q , 3 q q , 3 q , 3 q , 0q , 3 qax 'ax 'as q , 3 q , 3 q , 8 ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as q , 3 q 8 pnei 6ei 6ei mi0mfq qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? 2 9d 7ez 'i 4 9f , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qq 8 mi `yd tg 9l 3 r \) b8g \) r g \) a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 \) r g \) r8f \) b8e , 3 \? bu p 3u e9c 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as qq , 0q , 3' q , 0q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 qq , 3 q , 0qq , 3 mq , 0q , 3' q , 0q , 3 q , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 3 q , 3 qq q , 3 9 ne mi 6e1t '1t e1t '1z6ei 6ei 4 9f q qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax mf0 nwk \? 1z6e 3 , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax km `yd 33 tq , b8f \) b g \) r186 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 \) r g \) b8f \) 3 p 7 9 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 3 qq , 3 , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q q , 3 q , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as q , 3 qq , pl i4 'w \? wwiz bhj gk \? w \? w 'i 4 v9f mq q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'i0o , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q9 bj 5 q0 , m3 r \) b8f \) r g \) r186 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 e145 ! 86 a86 a86 a86 lg \) mr f \) b4q , 9 \? 0qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'as q , 3 qq , 0q , 3 q , 8 'ax 'ax ' , 3 q , 3 , 3 qax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q 9f9f8 z5'1t \? \? wwiz ghj kn bhj biz gizwt 'i0l 9f , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax nwk \? , 8 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as f z5' 7 9 q , 3 \( f \) b g \) r g \) a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 e145 06 a86 a86 a86 a86r f \) b4q , 6 q \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max q , 3 q , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 qq , 0q , 3 q , 3 qax q , 3 q , 3 , 3 q , 3 pl 5'1t '1t 'wwiz bhj bj n n nrhj gk \? 1t , 8 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax j mwt 9c 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax ' , \? km 5 , tq , 3 \( f \) r g \) r d6 a86 a86 a86 a86 a945 ! 86 a86 a86 a86 a86r g \) b8e , 4t 5 , e9c ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax ' , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3' q 9f pl pmf9f mq , 0q , 3' q , 3 q , 0q , 3 qq , l pnei4 '1 z bhj bhj bhj pmfq 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a 1f , 5g9p , 3 r \) mb8f \) r g \) r186 a86 a86 a86 a865 ! 86 a86 a86 a86 a86r g \) b8e , v mb vp \( 2'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 q , 3 9f9f9 l m9f8 z6ei4 \? \? 1t ei0mfq qax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 q , 3 qq qax ' , 3 q , 3 mq 9f z5'w z bj n n nrhj 'i0mfq , 0qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'q 8 , 5g p , 3 \( f \) b8f \) r g \) r d6 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86r f \) b8e , v tb vp 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 q , 3' q , 3 q , 3 q 9f9f8 pl pnei 6ei 6ei4 '1 \? w \? 1z6e v , 3 qax 'ax 'ax ' max ' , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 3' 9 nei4 \? \? ghj bhj bhj '1t ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax \? \? kl 8ltq 5g tq , 3 r \) b8g \) r g \) r186 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 a86 \) r g \) b8e , v tb vp \? i6 ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as q , 3 q 9f9f9f9 l pl 6ei 6ei 6e1t '1t '1t \? \? w \? wt ' mi0l 9 l 9l0q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 1f9 l i4 \? \? giz bhj 'i 4 9l3 , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 68 i4 \? \? bi 5 mbxlt , 5g9p , 3 \( f \) mr g \) r g \) a86 a86 a86 \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r f \) b4q , v \? b vp \? 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' q 9f pl pl z6ei 6ei 6ei 6ei 5'1t \? \? mw \? w \? w \? wwiz gizw '1z6ei 4 pmf9l0q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 3 q , 3 qq , 1f9 l 5'1t '1t \? \? w \? 1t e v , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' 9 7 ml mbxn , 5g tq , b8g \) r g \) r g \) a86 \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) b8f \) b4q , v p 9e nwk \? , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as qq , 1f pl z6ei 6e m1t '1t '1t '1t \? \? w \? wwiz giz giz ghj bhj bhj gizw \? wt 'i 6e mi0l 9f q qq , 3 9f9f9 l 6ei 6ei 6e1t 'i 6ei 6ei0l 9l3 q q max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 0 1 jn f3w2 1fp4u 3 8ltq6 3 r \) b8g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) mr g \) r f \) b8f \) b4q , , 9 0 , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 3' q , 1f9 l 5'1 \? w \? wwiz ghj bj n n n n n 7ey 7ey m7kn n n n n nrhj gk \? 1t '1t '1t ei 4 z6ei 6e1t \? \? w \? wt 'w \? mwt ei0l 9f , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'a 0 i4 \? \? , \( 9 pl wmbs3 9v , 3 r \) b8f \) mr g \) r g \) r g \) \) r g \) b8f \) b4q , 3` gq32 4 ! q 0 \? ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 3 q , 3 q 9f pl 5'1t '1 \? giz kn 7ey `p , m`p , `p , `p , `p , , `p 7kn biz giz giz gk \? mw '1t \? \? w \? w \? 1t ei 5'1t e pnei 4 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? \? \? bj 7 , tg q 1fp m4u mbs3 9p , 3 \( f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) 3 q , 9v \? \( ! 'i 5f , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q 8 z6e1t '1 \? ghjn n nuy 7 , `p , `p , `p 9f0 , `p , `p , f9f9 3t tm 2tm 2tm 2 end part 12 14
doug sun sws uiuc edu \( doug ward \) subject stealth 24 video drivers organization state water survey lines 14 recently purchased diamond stealth 24 video card received wrong drivers anyone know ftp windows video drivers stealth 24 tried drivers cica n't work right drivers diamond bbs file almost 1 meg would take download 2400 baud information would appreciated please contact doug sun sws uiuc edu thank doug ward
subject roman bmp 14 14 pwiseman salmon usd edu \( cliff \) reply pwiseman salmon usd edu \( cliff \) distribution usa organization university south dakota lines 449 part 14 14 1d9 p4u v bxn 0t q6 g9v g p p 9v \? q 7 q30t 0t 0tbxom wm4u pl p 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 7 q 7 9 7 q 7 q 2tct 9f9f0 , 7ey n n bhj gizw \? w \? w '1t 'i 6e mi4 'i 6e pl v9fq , 0q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as q , 3 mq 9f9f9f pl pl 6ei 6ei4 '1t '1t 'w \? giz bj n n nuy `p 9 1d9 p4u 8n 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t , 7 q 7 9v g9v g9p tq , 3 q , 3 \( f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b4q , 3 q , 3 q , 3` 9 7 q 4t \( n `9 \( f0 nrizwt 'i0mf9l3 , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as qq 9f pl 5'1t \? \? \? mw \? giz km 7 , f3t tm 2 3t 3t 3v9f0 , `uy 7 , mf9d nrhj \? , 3 qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 qax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' 9 ne1t \? \? kn 7ex f9d tg q 7 9l p4u 3 wmbxn 0t 0t 0tq 7 9v p p g9v g9v \? 9v \? q 7 q30t \( n b wm 5 34 p 1fpl pl ! d9 1d9 p 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1eq 2 , `p , 7ey n lj giz giz giz giz giz \? w \? w '1z6e pmf9l3 , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax ' , 3 q , 3 qq , 3 q pl pl z6ei 5'1t \? \? wwhj kn nuy `p , `p , f3w2 1d9l 34 wm 8n 3 q6 g9v g9v g9v g9v g m9v p tq , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 \( f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) m3 q , 3 q , 3 q , p g9v \? ! lj 'i 4 v q , 0q , 3 ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max q , 3 9 l 6e1t \? \? \? w \? ghjn 7 , f9d 3t 9f9 9f9f9f9 m`p 7ey 7ex f9f9f9f9`p , 7kn gk \? 1t 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as qq , 0q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 3 q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max ' , 3' 9f8 i4 'wwiz kn 7ex `p 9 2 7 9 pl p4u 3 wm 8lt 0tbxn 0t , 7 9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v g9v \? q 4t \( n bxom 5 3 ml pl pl pl pl pl pl p 1d9l p 1d9 1d9 7 qtm 2tct 3t , 7kn nrhj bhj bhj bj n n nrhj bhj gizw 'i0l 9l3 mq , 3 q q , 3 q , 3 qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 qq , 3 q , 3 q , 1f9f9f m9f8 pl z6e1 z bj nux `yf9f9d \) q 1d9l 3 8n bs0t , 7 9v g p 3` p , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 r \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) r g \) r g \) mr g \) r g \) r g \) r8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8e , 3 q , 3` v g9 7 q32 5 p 0 m7klj \? 1t ei0mfq , 3 , 3 qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3' q 9f9 l i4 'w \? w z bj n n m7ex `p 9f9d `p , `uy 7kn 7ex `yd `p , `uy nrizwt , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 3 q ' q , 3 , 3 qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as q , 3 ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' q 8 i4 \? \? wwiz kn 7ex `p 9f3t tg q 1d9 1d9l ! 34u 34u bxn bs0tq 7 q 7 q 7 9v g9v g9v g9v g m9v \? q30t 2 b wm 5 34u 34u 34 pl pl p4u pl pl pl pl p ml ! d9 7 q 7 q 7 qtm 2tm 2tct f9d `uy 7ey 7ey 7ex `p 7 , 7ey m7kn nrhj \? 1t e pl 9f9f9f q , 3 , 3 qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'as q , 3 qq , 3 q , nei z kn 7 9f3t tm \) q 1d9l ! 3 v 3 q6 g9p p , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) mb8f \) b8f \) b8f \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r g \) r f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b4q , 3` 9v g m9v \? q30t \( oml ! nrhj gk \? w 'i 4 v9fq , 0q , 8 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as qq , 3 mq 8 z6e1t '1 z bj n n n 7 , `p , `p , `p , `p 7kn n n 7ey `uy 7ez gk \? 1pmfq 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax qq , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax ' , 3 q , 3 q , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3' 9f8 n 7ex m`p , f9d 3w2tg q 1d9 1d9 pl p4 wmbxn 3 q 7 q 7 mq 7 9v g9v g9v g9v g9 7 0t \( n u34u 34u 34u 34u 34u 34u 3 ml pl pl pl pl pl ! d9 1d9 1d9 7 q 7 q 7 q 2 7kn nrhj gizw \? 1t ei0l 9f9f9l3 q , 0q , 3 ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 q , 3 qq , 1f9 l i4 \? \? bj m7ex f9d 2 7 9 ! 3 v 3 9v g p , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 r \) mb8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b g \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8g \) r8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) mb8e , 3 q , 3 p p gq 7 q30t \( n u3l `9 7 bhj biz gk \? mwt e v , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as q , 3' q , 1f9f8 6e1t z bhj bhj bj 7ey 7ey m7ey `p , 7kn n n n n n n nuy n n gk \? wt e 0qax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , , 3 q , 3 q 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' 9 l mi km 7ex `p 9f9f9f9f9 3w2tm \) q 1d9 1d9 1d9 ! 34u 34u 3 v bs0tq 7 q 7 q 7 q6 g9v p 9v g9v g9v \? wm wm wm 5 34u 34u 34u 34u 34 pl ! d9 pl pl p 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1eq 7'2tm 2 3t 2tct 3t 3t 3v9f0 , `uy n n n lj gizw ' v9fq , 3 , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' mas qq , 1f9 l i4 \? \? `p 9 3w2tg q ! 34 v bs3 q6 g9p p , m3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 \( f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b g \) r g \) r f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) mb8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8e , 3 q , 3 q , p g9 7 q30t \( n 5 34u pl ! d9 1d9 1d9 7ez giz \? 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 3 q , 3 9 ne mi4 \? \? w \? w \? ghj kn n 7ey 7ez bhj bhjn n nrhj bhj gk \? wt ' mi0mfq \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? 9f q , 3 mq , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 q , 3 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax qq 8 kn nuy 7ex 2tg q 1d9 7 9 1d9 pl p4u 8n 3 q 7 q6 g9v g9v p p p p g m9v \? q30tbxn b wm 8n wm wm wm wm wm 5 3l pl pl `9 1fp ml p 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 qtm 2tm 2tm 2tm \( 9d m`p , 7ez n lj gk \? w '1t ei 6e pmf9l3 , 3 qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 3 9f8 z5'wwiz km `yd 2 7 9 ! 3 v , 7 9v g p tq , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 \( f \) b8f \) b8f \) r g \) r g \) r g \) mr f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 p v \? q30tbxn u34 `9 7 9 1d9 1eq 1d9l `9 1d9 7 qtm \( f9d `uz gizwt e v , 8 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' 9 l 6ei 6ei4 'w \? ghj km 7ey nriz giz ghj bhj giz gk \? 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax ' , 3 qq , 3 q , 3 q qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax q , 3 qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 1f z5'1 z bhjn 7 , `p , `yf9 m`p 9f3t tm \( tm \) q 7 q 7 9 1d9 1d9 ! 34 wmbxlt , 7 q 7 q 5g9v g p 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , p g9 7 q30tbxn bxom wm wm wm wm wm wm 5 34u 34u 34 ! 34u 34 pl p 1d9l pl `9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1d9 1eq 7 qtm 2tct 3t f9f9f9d `uy n lj gk \? w \? 1t '1z6ei0l 9l3 q q max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3' q 9f mn `yd \) q 1d9l ! 3 v , 7 q6 g9v p , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 r \) mb8f \) b8f \) b8g \) r g \) r8f \) b8f \) b8f \) 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , p 9v g9v \? \( om u3l `9 1eq 7 q 7 q 7 9 pl pl pl ! d9 \( 9f9 m`uz gk \? 1t 9f q qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3' q 9f9f8 z6ei 6e m1t '1 \? bhjn lj gizw \? giz biz gizwt e pmfq qax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as q , 3 q , 3 q , 0q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 1f9f8 i4 'wwiz kn 7 , 7ex `p , `p , `p 9 3t tm 2tg q 7 q 7'2tm 2tg 9 p4 v mbs0t 0t 3 q 5g9p 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 p v gq 7 0t \( n b wm wm wm wmbxn bxom wm wm wm wm wm u34u pl pl p4u 34u 3 ml 34 pl ! d9 1d9 1d9 7'2tct 3v9f9f9f9f9f9d 7ey n lj gizw \? m1t 'i 6e pl 9l3 q q , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'as qq 8 `yd tg 9 pl 3 v bs3 q 7 q 5g9v p 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 r \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) b8e , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , p p 9v \? q 4t 2 bxn wm4u p 1eqtm \( 3t 2tg q 7 9 1d9 ml pl pl p 1eq \( 9d `uz gk \? 1t e pmfq \( 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax q , 3 9f9f pl pl pl z5'w \? w \? w '1t \? \? giz gk \? wt ' mi0mfq , 0qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 1f9l3 q , 0q , 3 ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3' 9f9f z6e1 z bhjnuy 7ey 7ey 7 , `yf9 3w2tm 2tg q 7 qtm 2 3w2tm 2 7 9 ! 3 v bs0t 0t , 7 q6 g p , 3 q , 3 q , 3 p p 9v g m9 7 q30t \( n bxn bxom v bxn bxn bxn bxn bxn bxn bxn bxom u3 m4u 34u 3 wm wm4u 5 3l pl p 1d9 1eq \( 9f9f0 , `p , `p m7ez n n bhj giz \? 1t ei0l v9f9l3 q q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as qq , 1f pne1 z kl f3t tg q p4u 3 8n 3 q 7 q 7 q6 g9v g9p p , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , b8f \) b8f \) b8f \) mb8f \) 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 p p p v wm4 p 1eq 2tct mf9d 3t \) q 1d9 1d9l pl pl p 1d9 7 qtm 2tcv9f0 , 7klj ' v , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3' 9f9f pl v9fq , 0qq 8 6e m1t ei 5'1 \? w \? wt '1t e 0qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max qq q , 3 q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' 9f9f9 ne1 z bhj kn 7ex 7ey 7ex `yf9 2 mtm 2tm \( tm 2tm 2tct 3w2tm 2 7 9 ! 3 wmbxn bs0t , 7 9v tq , m3 q , 3 p p p 9v g9 7 q 4t 0t 0t \( n bxn bxn bxn bxn bxn mbxlt 0t 2 bxn v bxn bxn bxn wm u34u 34u 34 pl `9 7 q mtm \( 9d `p , 7ez n lj bhj bhj bhj bhj \? 1z6e pmf9f q q , 8 ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 1f9 l i4 z km f9d tg q p4u 8lt 3 q 7 q 7 q 5g9v g9v g9v g9v g9p tq , 3 q , 3 q , 3 \( f \) b4q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , v g9 4t \( om4 `9 7'2tm 2tct 3w2tm 2tm \) q 1d9 1d9 p4u 34u 34u 34 p ml `9 1eqtm \( f9d `uz 9l3 , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as q mq 9f9f q q , 3 q , 1f9f8 pl z6e1t '1 \? 1t 'i 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax \? 9f8 z6e1 z bhj kn 7ex m`p , `p , `yf9f3t tm \( 3t 2tct 3t 2tm \) q \) q 1d9l 3 v mbxn 3 9v g p tq , 3 q , p p p p g9v gq 7 q 7 q 7 q30t 0tbxn bxn bxn bxlt 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t \( n bxom wm wm 5 34u pl `9 7'2tct f9d 7ez n lj biz gizw \? wwiz \? 1t e mi0l 9f , 3 qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax qq , 1f9 ne1 z km `yd tg 9 ! 34 wm v bs0t 0t 0t , 7 mq 7 q 7 q 7 q 7 q 5g9v tq , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , m3 q , 3 q , 3 q , p g9 7 \( om4 p 1eq 2 3t 3t 3w2tm \( tm 2 1d9 ml p4u 34 wm wm wm4u 34 p 1eqtct f0 , 8 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as qq , 'ax q , 3 qq , 3 q 9f9f8 i4 ' m1t '1t e 2'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qq 8 5' m1 \? bj n 7ex `yf9f9f9 3v9 3v9f9f9 3t 3t 3t 3t 3w2 7 q 2tg 9 p4 wmbxn g9p p 3 q , 3` p p p p g m9v g9v g9 7 q 7 q30t 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t , 7 q 5g9v g9v gq 7 mq 7 q 7 0tbxn wm wm u34u pl ! d9 \( 9d `uy nrhj gk \? w \? m1t '1t '1t '1t ei0l v9f9l3 , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as qq , 1f z5'wwiz km `sw2 1d9l ! 34u wmbxn bs0t 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t 0t 3 q 5g9p 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , m3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , p g9 7 \( om 5 pl ! d9 7'2 3t 3t 3t 3t 3t 2 7 9l ! 34 wmbxn b wm 8om 5 3l ! d9 2 9d m7klj ' v , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as q , 3 q 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax ' , 3 q , 1f pnei , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax ' , 69f z5'w \? bhjnux `p , f9f9 3t 3t 3t 9f9f9f9f9f9 tg q 7 q 7 q 1fpl mbxlt 0tq 7 9v g9v p p p p p p p p 9v g9v g9v \? q 7 0tq 7 q 7 q 5g9v g m9v g p p 9v g9v g9v g9 7 q 4t \( n bxn wm 5 34 `9 7'2 9d m`uy nrizw '1t ei 4 pl pl 9f9f9l3 q , 0q , 3 qax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3' q 8 i4 \? \? bj m7ex `yd 1d9l ! 34 wm v bxn bxn bxn bxn 0t 0t 0t \( n bs0t 3 q6 g9p 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , p g9 7 2 5 p 7 qtm 2 3v9f9f9 3t 3t 3w2 7 9 ! 34 wm wm u34u 3l ! d9 \( f0 nrizwt 'i 4 9l0qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax q , 3 q 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 q 9f pl 9l2'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' 9 ne1 \? ghjn `yf9 3t 3t 9f9 9f9 3v9f9d 2tg q 1d9 1d9l 3 8n 0t , 7 mq 7 9v g9v g9v g p p 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , p p p p 9v g9v \? m9v g9v g9v p p tq , 3 q , p p p v g9v gq 7 q 4t \( n mb wm 5 3l ! d9 \( f0 nriz 'i0l v9f9l3 q , 3 q , 3 , 3 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' mas qq 9f pne1 \? bj 7ex f3w2 1d9l ! 3 wm v b wm wm wm v mbxn bxn bxn 0t 0tq 7 q6 g9p p p , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , m3 q , 3` p 9v \? q32 b u34 `9 7'2tct 3v9f0 , `p , `p , `p , `p , m`p 9f9d tg q 1fpl 34 p 1d9 3v9`uz gk \? 4 v , 8 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3 qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax ' , 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3' 9f8 i4 'wwiz km 3t 3w2tm \( 3t 2 7 q 1d9 p ml ! 3 wmbxlt 0t 3 q 7 q 7 q 5g9v g9p tq , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , m3 q , 3 p p p 9v p p , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 p v g9v g9 7 u34 `9 7'2 0 nrizwt 'i0mf9l3 , 3 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 3' q 9f z5'wwiz bhjnux `yd tg q 1fpl 3 m4u 34u 34u 34u 34u 3 wm wm 8n bs0t 0t 3 q 7 9v p p p p , 3 q , 3 q , p p 9p 9v g9 4t \( om 5 pl ! \( 9f9f0 , m7kn n n n n n 7ey 7ex `yf9 2 7 q 7 q 7'2tct f0 , 7kn 'i 4 q q , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' m9f8 i4 'w z bj 7 9 2tm 2tm 2 3t 3t 3t 3t 3w2tm \) q 1fpl pl ! 34 wmbxn 2 bxlt 3 q30t 0tq 7 9v g p m3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , m3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3` v g9v \? q30t \( n u3l ! d9 \( f0 nwk \? 1t e mi0mfq , 0qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 1f9 l i4 \? \? w z bhj mnuy `p 9 3w2tg q 1d9 1d9 1d9l pl pl ! 34u 34 wm 8n 7 mq6 g9v g p p p p p p 9v g9v g9v \? q 7 q 7 2 b u3 m4 p 7 , 7ey 7kn nrhj bhj giz bhj kn n n nuy 7 9 3t 3t 3v9f9d `uy n lj 'i0l 9l0qax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'as' 9 l pne1 z bhjnux `yd 3t 2tct 3t 3v9 3t 3t tm \( tm \) q 1d9l 34u 34 wm 8n bxn bxn bs0t 0t 0t 3 q 5g9v p , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , m3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , p g9 7 2 bxom 5 p 7'2 gk \? 1z4 v q 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as q mq , 1f pnei 5'1t \? \? ghj km 7 2 7 q 1d9 7 q 7 9 1d9 1d9 ml p4u v bxlt , 7 9v p 3 q , 3 q , p p p p g9 7 0t 2 bxn bxn b wm4u pl ! d9 2 , `uy 7kn n lj biz \? w \? mw \? wwiz bhj bhjn `p , `p , `p 7klj bhj ' pmfq qax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as' q , 3 q , 3 9 l z bj n 7 9f3t 3t 3t 3t 3t 3t f9f9 3t 2 1d9 p4 wm wm v mbxn bxn bxn bxn 0t 0t 0tq 5g9v tq , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , m3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3` v gq 4t \( n b wm4 `9 7'2 9d 7klj , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax qq , 1f9 nei4 '1 \? bhjnuy `p 9f3t 3w2tm 2 mtm 2tm 2 7 q 1d9 pl p4u 8n bxlt 3 q6 g p 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , m3 q , 3` 9v gq 7 2 bxom u34u 5 34 p 1eq \( f9d `uy 7ey mn n n lj gizw '1t '1t ei 6e1t \? \? wt 'w \? wwiz bhj bhj giz giz mwt e 0q , 8 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax q , 3' 9f8 pl pnei 5'1 \? bj nuy 7ex f9f9 3t 3t f9d 3t 3t 3t 3w2 7 q 1d9l wm wm wm wmbxn bxlt 0tbxn 0t 3 q 5g9p 3 q , m3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , b8e , b8f \) 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3` p g9 7 q 4t 0t \( n 5 3l ! d9 \( `uz gk \? wt 9l0qax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'as qq 8 z6e1 z bj m7ey `p , tm 2 7 9 1d9 1d9l 3 v bxlt 3 mq 5g9v p p tq , p v g9 7 0tbxom wm4u 34u 3l p 1d9 7 qtct f9d 7ez nrhj giz gizw \? wt 'i0l pl pl pl pl 6e mi 5'1t \? \? w \? w '1t 'i 4 v q 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' , 3' 9 ne mi 6ei \? bj 7ex `p , `yf9f9d 3t 3w2tm 2tct tg q 1d9 ! 34 wm wm wm v bxn bs0t 0t 0tbxn mbs0tq 7 9v p , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 r \) b8f \) b4q , 3 q , 3 q , 3 q , m3 q , 3 q , 3 q , 3` g9 7 \( n u34 `9 7'2 9e 4 9l3 , 3 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max ' , 3' 9f8 i4 \? \? ghjn n n 7ey 7 , `p 9f9f9f9d 3w2tg q 7 q 1d9l ! 34 7 9v \? q6 g9v g p 9v g9v gq 7 2 b wm4u 3 m4u pl pl ! d9 1eq 7 q 7'2tm \( f9d `uy n lj gizw '1t '1t ei0l l pl pl pl pl pl z6ei 6ei 6e , 8 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' max 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax 'ax ' ` end end part 14 14
osburn halcyon com \( tim osburn \) subject netware 3 11 win 3 1 organization northwest nexus inc lines 12 nntp posting host nwfocus wa com update something allow person using novell 3 11 windows 3 1 file manager view files name person created changed like novell command \? tim osburn osburn halcyon com tim osburn osburn halcyon com bellevue , washington
chen harvard edu subject problem w4w print file help ! ! ! ! organization harvard smithsonian center astrophysics distribution world lines 34 article 1993mar31 jupiter sun csd unb ca unb ca writes w4w experts file three pages long 10 12 1 line equations plus 5 2 diagram size file embedded objects embedded objects well , print \( since n't laser printer , send print file \) , w4w gives back file well 6mb long fail see file 6mb file obviously , able carry 6mb file public printer unless find network card , cable etc could anyone please enlighten solution \? \( already try print page time , still wo n't fit hd floppy \) thanx mil dennis woo department mechanical engineering e mail unb ca university new brunswick tel \( 506 \) 453 problem copy whole doc new file problem gone hope helps hua
hodge iccgcc decnet ab com subject removing ole server lines 25 article liverpool ac uk , liverpool ac uk \( chris wooff \) writes ago installed spss windows part evaluation evaluation complete duly deleted software pc unfortunately still ghost spss left run something like write go embed object spss chart appears list objects i'm offered looked around obvious ini files without success next thing tried looking string spss chart every file windows directory turned file called req dat \( reg dat \) unfortunately file binary n't feel inclined edit 'd welcome solution removing spss list ole servers chris wooff \( c wooff liverpool ac uk \) edit file utility comes windows 3 1 called regedit \( registration info editor \) bob hodge i'm going fishing got worms \? yeah , i'm going anyway !
reimert etdesg trw com \( scott p reimert \) subject win nt file systems organization trw inc , redondo beach , ca lines 26 article 1993apr26 spider co uk spider co uk \( keith smith \) writes ok one tell dos 5 read \( hav n't tried writing case breaks something \) win nt ntfs file system thought ntfs supposed better fat system keith dos 5 0 6 0 cannot read ntfs file system , although ntfs file system read fat file system dos seperate partition machine home , read dos disks windows nt , vice versa far file system , seems fast , yet single problem n't prove 's better fat system though read book windows nt , ' give info 're looking scott scott reimert reimert etdesg trw com standard disclaimer redondo beach , ca blah blah blah always store beer cool dark place
keith w johnson tek com \( keith w johnson \) subject viewsonic 17 experience sought \( vs 17 vs nec 5fg \) organization tektronix , gpi nd info services lines 42 distribution world nntp posting host wv tek com 'd appreciate email post positive negative experience monitor , especially compared nanao 550i 'd summarize got multiple responses bought viewsonic 17 use home week took back felt money nec 5fg use work much better monitor nec sharper , flatter , less distorted , stable heard complaints people nec fg series quality control problems mine use year problems nothing really broken viewsonic overall match used ati graphics ultra setup mode push frequencies limits viewsonic exhibited problems nec personally like non nec filter tube 17 nice 17 edge distortion problems also , would change brightness switched modes constantly fiddle controls yoke crooked way compensate raster tilted downhill postive side , although handsome nec , 17 smaller footprint heavy heard panasonic owns viewsonic model 17 sold oem channels panasonic label 's available way lower cost could get serious nec vote i'm searching one new , cheaper , nec 5fge 's see 's good older brother 5fg decide one buy experience nanao never keep nanao models straight n't place walk get good comparison models standard employer disclaimers apply keith w johnson tektronix , gpi nd info services , wilsonville , , usa internet keith w johnson tek com voice 503 685 fax 503 682
tomh metrics com \( tom haapanen \) subject rfd comp os ms windows nt misc , setup organization software metrics inc lines 76 nntp posting host rodan uu net official request discussion \( rfd \) creation two new newsgroups microsoft windows nt second rfd , replacing one originally posted january '93 \( never taken vote \) proposed groups described name comp os ms windows nt setup status unmoderated purpose discussions setting installing windows nt , system peripheral compatability issues windows nt name comp os ms windows nt misc status unmoderated purpose miscellaneous non programming discussions using windows nt , including issues security , networking features , console mode windows 3 1 \( win16 \) compatability rationale microsoft nt newest member microsoft windows family operating systems \( operating environments wish argue meaning os \) family ranges modular windows windows 3 1 windows workgroups windows nt high end date , microsoft shipped 50 , 000 beta copies pre release windows nt actual release slated may june '93 windows nt entirely new design internally , shares application programming interface members windows family win32 api includes win16 api used win 3 1 , win32s api subset \( win32 less threads , networking security \) used create 32 bit applications windows 3 1 user interface also practically identical windows 3 1 , addition logins features uses program manager , file manager , generally pre identical appearance user many announced windows nt applications ports existing windows 3 1 apps , nt also runs existing 3 1 applications thus , appears logical windows nt share following groups members windows family comp os ms windows apps comp os ms windows programmer tools comp os ms windows programmer misc comp os ms windows programmer win32 following groups also clearly applicable windows nt well windows 3 1 comp os ms windows announce comp os ms windows advocacy conclusion , clear argument separation windows 3 1 windows nt hierarchies different internal structures windows 3 1 windows nt yet operating systems os 2 , macintosh os , xenix coherent undergone major rewrites without split separate newsgroup hierarchies , windows 3 1 due major rewrite 1994 fully 32 bit , protected mode dos built next generation windows , chicago , next year , surely remain hierarchy , , would jus separating windows nt windows versions \? discussion period discussion period run 27 april , 1992 18 may , 1993 voting cfv \( call votes \) issued around 19 may , 1993 , based feedback received discussion period votes accepted prior cfv tom haapanen tomh metrics com software metrics inc waterloo , ont stick index fingers corners mouth pull 's corrado makes feel car , january '93
ux1 cso uiuc edu \( leon \) subject dde help \? summary need help get dde work keywords dde organization university illinois urbana lines 24 starting work project using dde transfer data application came excel macro transfer data need 1 2 3w 1 2 3w uses different setup dde macros anyone suggestions good references \? downloaded windows dynamic exchange \( dde \) ms application note books worth getting \? specifics server application ai 450 data system client application 1 2 3 windows v1 1 except macro , provide documentation dde also , problems trying develop application pc , actually get data , need connect instrument help would appreciated , thanks , leon nothing worse itch internet uiuc edu never scratch leon
herrod cs stanford edu \( stephen herrod \) subject dos window macros organization computer science department , stanford university distribution usa lines 6 anyone know program record keyboard sequences windowed dos box \? would like something starts telnet program logs accounts windows recorder n't seem able record key sequences thanks , steve
ibp fr \( yan \) subject adobe 3 0 adobe 2 0 nntp posting host ibp fr reply ibp fr \( yan \) organization universite paris vi paris vii lines 7 wanted create postcript file win 1 , print laserwriter ii created postcript file version adobe 3 0 , laser accept adobe 2 0 resolve problem \? \? thanks ,
cs indiana edu \( bob \) subject wanted bus card logitech mouse article news 1993apr1 expires 5 15 1993 distribution na organization lines 7 've acquired old logitech series 7 \( 3 button \) mouse , i'm told bus mouse anyone want unload old \( pc clone \) bus card mouse \? email replies cs indiana edu thanks
glang slee01 srl ford com \( gordon lang \) subject flame therapy article fmsrl7 organization ford motor company research laboratory lines 5 nntp posting host slee01 srl ford com x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 think would great idea new group created comp sys ibm pc flame therapy anybody agree \?
kudla acm rpi edu \( robert kudla \) subject warning copy ii pc board help copying \? keywords mislead , , , copy article rpi lines 40 nntp posting host hermes acm rpi edu acsu buffalo edu v063kcbp ubvmsd cc buffalo edu \( mitch \) writes , anyone know way back masters word perfect 5 1 windows , windows 3 1 , norton 6 0 send another copy permanent \( non college \) address safe keeping \? students keep borrowing masters , i'm worried 'll get screwed ! \( please n't tell realize , course , inevitably anal retentive moron going come along wag fingers outrage personal politics important bold font god law bold font 's irrelevant problem windows came system , 5 25 disks hate using 5 25 disks , copied high density 3 5 's using worked fine fact , changing configurations whatnot much decided try putting hard disk copy one disk per directory , want , simply copy one directory makes lot nicer 're switching printer around norton 6 0 n't much experience , friend 's system crashed , restored backup rather originals , worked fine would imply arj r norton c nu would create workable backup , full install first time , 've got whole thing never played wp windows i'm big fan anything utah good luck disclaimer n't copy floppy ! \( tm \) say ! \( r \) respect elders ! wages sin \( sic \) death hefty legal bill ! offend \? rob rob kudla acm rpi edu keywords jane 's leather yes win3 1 light blue right bondage r e dtp dan owl genesis spaceship , silver spaceship , lion takes control
pm860605 longs lance colostate edu \( peter j mckinney \) subject pc keyboard summary location cap lock ctrl keys pc keyboard keywords cap lock ctrl key article longs pm860605 143 organization colorado state university lines 31 nntp posting host hercules lance colostate edu article rpi edu wen ral rpi edu \( john wen \) writes wen ral rpi edu \( john wen \) subject pc keyboard summary location cap lock ctrl keys pc keyboard keywords cap lock ctrl key date mon , 5 apr 1993 19 23 35 gmt anyone know software exchange caps lock ctrl keys style keyboard \? i'm looking memory resident program work programs , rather feature specific program \( aware shareware program back forth provides feature within program \) thanks program archive zip simtel mirror sites msdos keyboard directory written assembler best compiler create new keyboard map possible , however , use binary editor edit provided compiled keyboard driver compiler used zip , also available simtel simply codes 00 01 02 03 locate normal keyboard map swap codes keys wish swap see keyboard directory simtel programs report key \( bios programs also info \) good luck , pete peter j mckinney pm860605 longs lance colostate edu laboratory fluid mechanics wind engineering program civil engineering department colorado state university
glang slee01 srl ford com \( gordon lang \) subject please help identify video hardware article fmsrl7 organization ford motor company research laboratory lines 11 nntp posting host slee01 srl ford com x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 need device \( either isa board subsystem \) take two rgb video signals combine according template template simple rectangular window signal one used interior signal two exterior beleive may also exist want exclude search know sort hardware exists ntsc , etc need rgb please email post leads gordon lang \( glang smail srl ford com glang srl ford com \)
ry01 ns1 cc lehigh edu \( robert yung \) subject long monitors last \? \? \? \? article ns1 1993apr5 organization lehigh university lines 21 well , vga 2 5 year old brand monitor bit bullet pressed power switch seconds later , power light went pop , 's two half years long would normal monitors last \? think problem monitor power switch image getting pretty dim anyway \( needed contrast way max \) screen flicker time time normal \( hehehe \) worst luck \? \? \? question \? \? \? \? buy new one \? get fixed \? save really good one get cheap ega monitor \? rather save money upgrade 386sx 486 66 though thanks ! engineers say extensive effort applied fresh approach problem really mean hired three new guys 'll let kick around \( robert \) bobby yung ry01 lehigh edu
calvin andrew cmu edu subject attn ken smith organization freshman , electrical computer engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 9 nntp posting host po3 andrew cmu edu reply gumby altos com model number , 14 interlaced btw , number contact company , would really helpful thanks replying beginning believe never going get reply posted netnews bboard first message sent returned , n't know second message would get calvin
cbnewsg cb att com \( richard \) subject share optimization tips organization lines 33 article geraldo cc utexas edu jbodnar ccwf cc utexas edu \( john bodnar \) writes according e p unl edu \( edgar pearlstein \) 's another one 5 computer arrived following statement config sys file stacks 9 , 256 changed stacks 8 , 128 saved 1296 bytes maybe could lowered even , n't tried exactly regardless microsoft says , set stacks 0 , 0 every single computer installed windows simple 386sx 16 486dx 50 eisa motherboards , tiga adapters , intel ethernet express cards , caching scsi controllers dtc problem yet , extra 2k gained means lot conventional memory programs like pcb john bodnar liked developing windows university texas austin applications , never inhaled internet jbodnar ccwf cc utexas edu uucp ! cs utexas ! ut ccwf ! jbodnar borland ceo philippe kahn remember reading somewhere \( qemm manual , think \) stack 9 , 256 needed windows setup program otherwise , use stack 0 , 0 rich
jmgree01 starbase spd louisville edu \( jude greer \) subject gateway 2000 ati lb problem nntp posting host starbase spd louisville edu organization university louisville lines 25 wondering anyone problem gateway 2000 486 33dx vl bus system ati graphics ultra pro lb computer resolution 800x600 , everything fine , whenever use 800x600 \( windows , autocad , gifs \) screen gets 1 1 2 inches shorter top bottom screen 3 4 bar black screen n't cut , everything smaller space aspect ratio manually change v size back , pain ass , n't happen anyway 've called gateway numerous times n't able help two different times sent new card , times new card n't work computer even tried bill first card n't get back couple days , told phone would wait 2 weeks billing card customer support different story , anyone problem , please let know know hell , let know n't solution , know i'm one problem thanks advance jude greer jmgree01 starbase spd louisville edu p already tried going mach 32 install program manually set ting card n't work whenever try increase vertical size 800x600 screen , starts cut top bottom
ns1 cc lehigh edu \( jason paul walters \) subject gw2000 simms organization lehigh university lines 24 article bu edu , nshah acs2 bu edu writes gateway2000 483 33 local bus system 4 slots simms either use 4 16mb simms question received 70ns simm 30 pins slot motherboard least 70 pins get wrong simm still use simm , although pins slot would never encountered long slot simms anyone suggestions \? ca n't get hold gateway yet thanks please post net nshah acs bu edu yes , bought wrong simms need , 72 pin simms better anyway becuase send receive data \( 32bit parity , one byte \) chunks undoubtedly see simms becoming widely used near future jason jason walters lehigh edu eecs lehigh edu k modem mouth
gryphon openage openage com \( golden gryphon \) subject intel , pentium linux article openage 1993apr04 organization open age , inc lines 40 ibm rz tu clausthal de \( \) writes hi folks , yesterday visited \( hannover , germany \) , intel presenting pentium \( 586 \) processor four \( words 4 \) machines beast running presented nicely \( running picture shows \) , could 80286 \) \) promised binary compatible i486 , said n't believe showed one disk linux system \( emergency disk , patched boot disk \) , said convice , boot guts , glory ! decided glory wo n't let anybody touch holy cows , even boot suspect os thought coward went back earth cn learn technology far industrial , expect beast local computer shop least spring next year yes 00 02 's mine running new chip trade show , little real technical knowledge , would n't let stranger diskette boot demo machine demo machine long people see nice demos , linux diskette really something wipe disk , loaded virus ! , i'm deep trouble right mind would let , unless specifically invited people , provided machines learn technology shipping pc vendors may 1993 , i486 compatible golden gryphon gryphon openage com crown american prison system president bill clinton living white house openage premier sco unix washington c area
staggers cup hp com \( ken staggers \) subject warranty extension credit company applies computer \? article cup mll distribution usa organization hewlett packard lines 20 nntp posting host writer cup hp com x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 1 yang \( yang titan ucs umass edu \) wrote , , credit card companies offer double warranty one year , namely , make purchase credit card , get additional warranty one year apply purchase computers \? wonder anyone used catch \? thanks advance post results big computer purchase one key points ability use american express card read fine print double warranty policies amex citibank visa sure , allow double warranty computers , citibank maximum claim 250 00 could imagine trying get monitor mother board fixed 250 00 \? amex limit claims remember , use amex , must either send copy warranty info 30 days purchase , must call pre register send paperwork within 90 days purchase \( pre register pak arrived today \) citibank visa requires pre registration ken
john wa3wbu uucp \( john \) subject another happy gateway owner organization wa3wbu , , pa lines 43 since 've seeing kinds complaints regarding gateways lately , thought post recent pleasant experiences machine \( 4dx2 66v \) past friday two weeks day called order upon found everything perfect order peripherals ordered properly installed \( jumbo 250 cd rom \) impressed quantity quality gateway documentation software came original disks manuals gateway manual nice 3 ring binder ati gup came drivers software specified \( microsoft office \) properly installed machine came right box performing flawlessly 's weekend hardly even reaches room temperature think big roomy tower case lot 's running dos 6 0 problems 've also read people problems high speed serial communications used dos 6 0 program lets link old computer via serial port 115 2k baud maps machines two hard disks disks f g cd drives either run programs copy files 's almost like peer peer lan except also run programs machine 's two way street machine server machine client thats seems differ peer peer stuff bundled dos utility impressive jumbo 250 took 11 minutes back data also passed potential gateway monitor problems taking 430 credit applying towards nec 4fg love monitor ! , i'm glad good news gateway stories i'm glad \( keeps working \) \) john john , wa3wbu uucp uunet ! wa3wbu ! john packet wa3wbu
uzun crash cts com \( roger uzun \) subject winmarks \? get article crash organization cts network services \( crash , ctsnet \) , el cajon , ca lines 6 get winmarks benchmark run pc \? via ftp would best roger bix net uzun crash cts com
dcoleman utxvms cc utexas edu \( daniel coleman \) subject gateway 2000 ati lb problem lines 37 nntp posting host gray cc utexas edu organization university texas austin lines 37 article jmgree01 starbase spd louisville edu , jmgree01 starbase spd louisville edu \( jude greer \) writes wondering anyone problem gateway 2000 486 33dx vl bus system ati graphics ultra pro lb computer resolution 800x600 , everything fine , whenever use 800x600 \( windows , autocad , gifs \) screen gets 1 1 2 inches shorter top bottom screen 3 4 bar black screen n't cut , everything smaller space aspect ratio manually change v size back , pain ass , n't happen anyway 've called gateway numerous times n't able help two different times sent new card , times new card n't work computer even tried bill first card n't get back couple days , told phone would wait 2 weeks billing card customer support different story , anyone problem , please let know know hell , let know n't solution , know i'm one problem thanks advance jude greer jmgree01 starbase spd louisville edu p already tried going mach 32 install program manually set ting card n't work whenever try increase vertical size 800x600 screen , starts cut top bottom maybe monitor problem mentioned swapped cards , monitors perhaps could dan daniel matthew coleman internet dcoleman utxvms cc utexas edu dcoleman ccwf cc utexas edu university texas austin decnet utxvms dcoleman electrical computer engineering bitnet dcoleman utxvms bitnet
nshah acs2 bu edu subject simm sale organization boston university , boston , , usa lines 6 originator nshah acs2 bu edu 1 70ns simm sale perfect condition work system requires 72 pin simms would like get paid 115 3 insured shipping addition , 4mb 70ns 72 pin eisa ps 2 type simm sale , drop line thanks shah nshah acs bu edu
glang slee01 srl ford com \( gordon lang \) subject infamous gateway 2000 video monitor problem info requested ! organization ford motor company research laboratory lines 32 nntp posting host slee01 srl ford com x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 greg \( psuvm psu edu \) wrote article odin corp sgi com , mikey sgi com \( mike yang \) says , going mailorder gateway , save 13 plus , get technical support phone , free software package fun trying get hold technical support phone least locally walk right dealer tell wrong , fix phone support quick competent many mail order firms , quick competent others \( gateway included \) experience computer retailers \( significant \) lead conclusion sales personnel retail technical personnel forbidden actually learn products sell talk incompetent ! k , percent answers correct , salesmen n't even realize stupid k 'll settle let catch breath fact retail stores never provide better value terms price per product retail outlets desirable , however , people n't interested learning computers enough make decisions fine example education carpeting , wall paper , lawn , microwave ovens , etc come sales personnel assume must idiot n't care things , however , care computer e demand features performance , 'll damned 'll pay high school drop commission rated , priced system process subjected distorted b g l generally
glang slee01 srl ford com \( gordon lang \) subject shadow mask organization ford motor company research laboratory lines 9 nntp posting host slee01 srl ford com x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 andrew bw \( ucsu colorado edu \) wrote shadow mask put face main memory keep day job
drice ponder csci unt edu \( keith rice \) subject drive controller compatibility lines 672 organization university north texas thanks responded original post got number western digital tech support determined need upgrade bios super bios handle hard drives 16 read write heads 1024 cylinders upgrade 15 , payable check money order send western digital corporation technical support group p box irvine , ca super bios wd xt hard drive controller card series bios system would handle 20mb drives responses request help follow sig warning 's long keith keith rice university north texas department computer science denton , texas , usa drice ponder csci unt edu drice cs unt edu responses mailbox syr edu sat apr 3 16 45 03 1993 received mailbox syr edu ponder \( 5 61 1 36 \) id sat , 3 apr 93 16 45 00 0600 mailbox syr edu \( bob valentine \) received mothra syr edu mailbox syr edu \( 4 1 cns \) id sat , 3 apr 93 17 44 49 est received mothra syr edu \( 4 1 spike 2 0 \) id sat , 3 apr 93 17 43 27 est date sat , 3 apr 93 17 43 27 est message id mothra syr edu drice ponder status drice ponder csci unt edu subject drive controller compatibility newsgroups comp sys ibm pc hardware reply drice ponder organization syracuse university , syracuse , ny cc article drice ponder write recently bought used seagate st 251 hard drive guy told fully tested good took home install compaq portable \( ok , i'm little behind technology \) already mfm controller installed drive powered system got post error , controller western digital rev c said , drive seagate st 251 system compaq portable \( circa 1985 \) ah , finally question answer mess older stuff alot kinda fun 8 \) first problem st 251 wd card unless right bios rom check numbers non smt chip board slightly center , left bios read either 62 015 62 last 3 digits 013 , got problems controller jumpers set follows \( represents jumper \) w1 1 2 3 w2 1 2 3 w3 1 2 w4 1 2 3 w5 1 2 3 w6 1 2 3 w7 1 2 3 looks right w5 w7 factory jumped \( trace \) pins 1 2 select primary controller address drive jumpers follows \( 8 represents jumper \) looks right art deleted questions 1 \) drive controller compatible w \? notice left s1 jumper table settings control drive controller thinks 62 015 rom , set like 5 open 6 open 7 open 8 open 4 closed 3 closed 2 open 1 open note wd runs numbers jumper block top bottom 's represent jumper pins pins 3 , 4 , 8 select first drive setting \( drive 0 \) pins 1 , 2 7 select second drive \( drive 1 \) 62 rom , 's auto config , 'll look n't big book right 2 \) jumpers card drive set correctly \? see might problems s1 jumpers right also , risk insulting , make sure cables right good 8 \) jumper 251 , try moving opposite side drive 's one narrow data cable goes j2 've thrown j3 times head day 3 \) system 's bios need upgrade \? dunno ibm roms later 10 27 82 quick way check boot dos run debug enter \( debug prompt \) return rom date , 's use keith rice , 's hard know caliber person i'm talking 8 \) bob valentine mailbox syr edu unitrix utr ac za mon apr 5 06 33 46 1993 received unitrix utr ac za ponder \( 5 61 1 36 \) id mon , 5 apr 93 06 32 59 0500 received unitrix utr ac za \( 1 28 1 1 \) id mon , 5 apr 93 13 28 gmt message id unitrix utr ac za unitrix utr ac za \( prof p \) subject drice ponder date mon , 5 apr 1993 13 28 49 0200 \( gmt \) x mailer elm version 2 4 mime version 1 0 content type text plain charset us ascii content transfer encoding 7bit content length status using twisted 34 way cable move jumper drive neighbouring pins 8 make sure twisted cable hard disk \( floppy disk \) coloured stripe \( pin 1 \) twist may also help products xt systems hard disk controllers mfm hard disk drives reference note 1 wd1002a wx1 , feature f300r half slot size hard disk controller card st506 st412 interface supports 2 mfm drives 16 heads 1024 cylinders jumper configurable secondary addressing default drive tables built rom bios supports non standard drive types , virtual drive formatting , dual drive operation , bad track formatting dynamic formatting board features power connector applications also operate systems please note controller card unavailable manufacturer \( western digital \) march , 1989 reference note 2 gen , feature f300r half slot size hard disk controller card st506 st412 interface supports 2 mfm hard disk drives 8 heads 1024 cylinders built rom bios supports non standard drive types , virtual drive formatting , dual drive operation , bad track formatting dynamic formatting please note controller card unavailable manufacturer \( western digital \) march , 1989 wx1 , feature f300r half slot size disk controller card st506 st412 interface supports 2 mfm drives 16 heads 1024 cylinders jumper configurable secondary addressing default drive tables built rom bios supports non standard drive types , virtual drive formatting , dual drive operation , bad track formatting dynamic formatting board features power connector applications also operate systems reference note 2 , feature f300r half slot size hard disk controller card st506 st412 interface supports 2 mfm hard disk drives 8 heads 1024 cylinders built rom bios supports non standard drive types , virtual drive formatting , dual drive operation , bad track formatting dynamic formatting reference note 2 hard disk controllers rll hard disk drives reference note 2 27x , feature f301r half slot size hard disk controller card st506 st412 interface supports 2 rll hard disk drives 16 heads 1024 cylinders jumper configurable secondary addressing default drive tables built rom bios supports non standard drive types , virtual drive formatting , dual drive operation , bad track formatting dynamic formatting board features power connector applications also operate systems please note controller card unavailable manufacturer \( western digital \) march , 1989 reference note 2 wd1002a 27x , feature half slot size hard disk controller st506 st412 interface supports 2 rll drives 16 heads 1024 cylinders built rom bios supports non standard drive types , virtual drive formatting , bad track formatting dynamic formatting please note controller card unavailable manufacturer \( western digital \) march , 1989 27x , feature f301r half slot size hard disk controller card st506 st412 interface supports 2 rll hard disk drives 16 heads 1024 cylinders jumper configurable secondary addressing default drive tables built rom bios supports non standard drive types , virtual drive formatting , dual drive operation , bad track formatting dynamic formatting board features power connection applications also operate systems reference note 2 27x , feature f300r half slot size hard disk controller st506 st412 interface supports 2 rll drives 16 heads 1024 cylinders built rom bios supports non standard drive types , virtual drive formatting , bad track formatting dynamic formatting note 1 6300 6300 6300 plus contain system bios chips support hard disk drive using western digital xt controller card system boot solve problem , one rom bios chips must disabled disable bios western digital xt controller card , must remove jumper position w 3 add jumper position r 23 \( depending model xt controller using \) 2 note 2 tandy 1000 systems wd1002a wx1 , wx1 , 27x modified operate tandy 1000 series computers , models sx , tx original version computers utilize interrupt 2 \( irq2 \) instead irq5 , ibm standard modify wd1002a wx1 27x operate systems , must cut pin 1 pin 2 jumper position w 7 solder pin 2 pin 3 position \( w 7 \) complete modification , jumper must added position 7 switch 1 \( 2 rows 8 pins \) please note physical modification western digital hard disk controller warranty board modify wx1 , 27x tandy 1000 system , zero ohm must soldered jumper position w 27 change interrupt irq5 irq2 xt controllers floppy disk drives wd1002a fox half slot floppy disk controller xt systems four versions board available feature supports two floppy disk drives feature supports four floppy disk drives includes optional 37 pin control , data power connector optional 4 pin power connector feature supports two floppy disk drives includes rom bios enable system recognize floppy disk drive may supported system rom bios optional rom bios also allow controller card operate high density floppy disk drives xt system feature supports four floppy disk drives includes optional 37 pin control , data power connector , optional 4 pin power connector rom bios enable system recognize floppy disk drives may supported system rom bios optional rom bios also allow controller card operate high density floppy disk drives xt system 3 products systems hard disk controllers mfm hard disk drives floppy support wd1003 wah , feature hard disk controller card st506 st412 interface supports 2 mfm drives 16 heads 2048 cylinders , 3 1 interleave , feature f300r hard disk controller card st506 st412 interface supports 2 mfm drives 16 heads 2048 cylinders , 2 1 interleave v boards run high speed systems \( 10 16 megahertz system speed \) wah , feature hard disk controller card st506 st412 interface supports 2 mfm drives 16 heads 2048 cylinders , 1 1 interleave wd1006v , feature f300r hard disk controller card st506 st412 interface supports 2 mfm drives 16 heads 2048 cylinders , 1 1 interleave faster data transfer due look ahead caching v boards run high speed systems \( 10 16 megahertz system speed \) hard disk controllers mfm hard disk drives floppy disk drives wd1003 wa2 , feature hard disk controller card st506 st412 interface , full form factor supports 2 mfm drives 16 heads 2048 cylinders , 3 1 interleave 2 floppy disk drives \( 360k 1 2 mb \) wa2 , feature hard disk controller card st506 st412 interface , full xt form factor supports 2 mfm drives 16 heads 2048 cylinders , 3 1 interleave 2 floppy disk drives \( 360k 1 2 mb \) , feature f300r hard disk controller card st506 st412 interface supports maximum 2 mfm drives 16 heads 2048 cylinders 2 1 interleave , 2 floppy disk drives \( 5 1 4 360k , 1 2mb 3 1 2 720k , 1 44mb \) v boards run high speed systems , \( 10 16 megahertz system speed \) wd1006v , feature f300r hard disk controller card st506 st412 interface supports maximum 2 mfm drives 16 heads 2048 cylinders 1 1 interleave faster data transfer due look ahead caching 2 floppy disk drives \( 5 1 4 360k , 1 2 mb 3 1 2 720k , 1 44 mb \) v boards run high speed systems , \( 10 16 megahertz system speed \) 4 hard disk controllers rll hard disk drives floppy support wd1003 hard disk controller card st506 st412 interface supports 2 rll hard disk drives 16 heads 2048 cylinders 3 1 interleave hard disk controller card st506 st412 interface supports maximum 2 rll hard disk drives 16 heads 2048 cylinders 2 1 interleave v boards run high speed systems \( 10 16 megahertz system speed \) feature f301r includes optional rom bios allows user define drive 's parameters feature f300r include rom bios must use drive tables system 's rom bios must contain appropriate drive parameters hard disk controller card st506 st412 interface supports maximum 2 rll hard disk drives 16 heads 2048 cylinders , 1 1 interleave feature includes optional rom bios provides additional drive parameter tables feature f300r include rom bios must use drive tables system 's rom bios must contain appropriate drive parameters wd1006v hard disk controller card st506 st412 interface supports 2 rll hard disk drives 16 heads 2048 cylinders , 1 1 interleave faster data transfer due look ahead caching v boards run high speed systems \( 10 16 megahertz system speed \) feature f301r includes optional rom bios allows user define drive 's parameters feature f300r include rom bios must use drive tables system 's rom bios must contain appropriate drive parameters hard disk controllers rll hard disk drives floppy disk drives wd1003 , feature hard disk controller card st506 st412 interface supports maximum 2 rll hard disk drives 16 heads 2048 cylinders , 3 1 interleave , 2 floppy disk drives \( 5 1 4 360k , 1 2 mb \) 5 hard disk controller card st506 st412 interface supports maximum 2 rll hard disk drives 16 heads 2048 cylinders , 2 1 interleave , 2 floppy disk drives , \( 5 1 4 360k , 1 2 mb 3 1 2 720k , 1 44 mb \) v boards run high speed systems \( 10 16 megahertz system speed \) feature f301r includes optional rom bios allows user define drive 's parameters feature include rom bios must use drive tables system 's rom bios must contain appropriate drive parameters wd1006v hard disk controller card st506 st412 interface supports maximum 2 rll hard disk drives 16 heads , 2048 cylinders 2 floppy disk drives \( 5 1 4 360k , 1 2 mb 3 1 2 720k , 1 44 mb \) also features 1 1 interleave faster data transfer due look ahead caching v boards run high speed systems \( 10 16 megahertz system speed \) feature f301r includes optional rom bios allows user define drive 's parameters feature include rom bios must use drive tables system 's rom bios must contain appropriate drive parameters hard disk controllers esdi hard disk drives floppy support wah controller card support 2 esdi hard disk drives , 10 megabit per second data transfer rate 1 1 interleave feature f301r includes optional rom bios shadow ram enable controller card interface types esdi drives without modifying system rom bios feature f300r include rom bios must use drive tables system 's rom bios must contain appropriate drive parameters se1 controller card support 2 esdi hard disk drives , 15 megabit per second data transfer rate 1 1 interleave v boards run high speed systems , \( 10 16 megahertz system speed \) feature f301r includes optional rom bios shadow ram enable controller card interface types esdi drives without modifying system rom bios feature f300r include rom bios must use drive tables system 's rom bios must contain appropriate drive parameters 6 hard disk controllers esdi hard disk drives floppy disk drives wa2 controller card support 2 esdi hard disk drives , 10 megabit per second data transfer rate , 1 1 interleave 2 floppy disk drives \( 5 1 4 360k , 1 2 mb 3 1 2 720k , 1 44 mb \) feature f301r includes optional rom bios shadow ram enable controller card interface types esdi drives without modifying system rom bios feature f300r include rom bios must use drive tables system 's rom bios must contain appropriate drive parameters controller card support 2 esdi hard disk drives , 15 megabit per second data transfer rate , 1 1 interleave 2 floppy drives \( 5 1 4 360k , 1 2 mb 3 1 2 720k , 1 44 mb \) v boards run high speed systems \( 10 12 megahertz bus speed \) feature f301r includes optional rom bios shadow ram enable controller card interface types esdi drives without modifying system rom bios feature f300r include rom bios must use drive tables system 's rom bios must contain appropriate drive parameters wa4 controller card support 2 esdi hard disk drives , 10 megabit per second data transfer rate , 1 1 interleave 2 floppy disk drives \( 5 1 4 360k , 1 2 mb 3 1 2 720k , 1 44 mb \) board also serial port parallel port feature f301r includes optional rom bios shadow ram enable controller card interface types esdi drives without modifying system rom bios feature f300r include rom bios must use drive tables system 's rom bios must contain appropriate drive parameter 7 hard disk controllers scsi hard disk drives 7000 asc scsi host adapter serves interface bus scsi bus necessary drivers receivers included , permitting direct cable connections scsi bus 50 pin connector bus two edge connectors 7000 asc utilizes jumper configurable options enable address space , dma channels interrupt requests selected suit end user 's application board also features word data transfer 4 megabytes per second \( synchronous \) , board floppy disk controller rom bios please note 7000 asc operates using standard dos 3 2 dos 3 3 7000 scsi host adapter card provides features 7000 asc plus additional support capabilities using software developed columbia data products 7000 support ms dos 3 2 3 3 , compaq dos 3 31 , pc dos 4 0 , pc mos 386 version 2 1 , xenix , microsoft windows , novell sytos tape backup fasst kit scsi host adapter compatible ibm xt , compatible systems uses 50 pin external scsi bus connector standard 50 pin internal scsi cable fasst used target serves excellent tool scsi designers also provides low cost alternative end users desiring install scsi peripheral device hard disk drive tape backup unit kit includes 8 bit scsi board , manual , fasst software diskettes internal scsi cable sytos tape backup \( utility 7000 fasst \) fasst sytos fasst version sytos tape backup utilities ms dos compatible , runs fasst software products revision 3 3 hard disk controllers ps 2 model 50 , 60 , 80 systems \( microchannel architecture \) wd1006v , feature f300r hard disk controller st506 st412 interface microchannel systems supports 2 mfm drives 16 heads 2048 cylinders , 1 1 interleave faster data transfer due look ahead caching v boards run high speed systems \( 10 16 megahertz system speed \) 8 , feature f300r controller card support 2 esdi hard disk drives , 15 megabit per second transfer rate contains rom bios shadow ram enable controller card interface types esdi hard disk drives without modifying system bios uses 1 1 interleave v boards run high speed systems , \( 10 12 megahertz bus speed \) controllers floppy disk drives wd1002a fox half slot floppy disk controller xt systems four versions board available feature supports two floppy disk drives feature supports four floppy disk drives includes optional 37 pin control , data power connector optional 4 pin power connector feature supports two floppy disk drives includes rom bios enable system recognize floppy disk drives may supported system rom bios optional rom bios also allow controller card operate high density floppy disk drives xt system feature supports four floppy disk drives includes optional 37 pin control , data power connector , optional 4 pin power connector rom bios enable system recognize floppy disk drives may supported system rom bios optional rom bios also allow controller card operate high density floppy disk drives xt system prof l chemistry department university internet unitrix utr ac za \( preferred \) tel 27 471 internet hippo ru ac za necis ! mydual uucp ! olson transfer stratus com mon apr 5 12 14 06 1993 received transfer stratus com ponder \( 5 61 1 36 \) id mon , 5 apr 93 12 14 03 0500 received necis uucp transfer stratus com \( 4 1 3 12 jjm \) id mon , 5 apr 93 13 12 04 edt received mydual necis necis nec com id 5 apr 93 12 50 edt received mydual uucp \( 5 58 5 09 28 87 \) id mon , 5 apr 93 13 24 23 est date mon , 5 apr 93 13 24 23 est h olson mydual ! olson transfer stratus com message id mydual uucp drice ponder subject drive controller compatibility newsgroups comp sys ibm pc hardware reply drice ponder organization harvard group , 0667 reply necis ! olson mydual uucp transfer stratus com cc status suggest move jumper drive one position regards , h olson harvard 0667 usa olson mydual uucp necis nec com
neil stone oz au \( neil \) subject com3 com4 hardware standard \? organization stone microsystems , nsw , australia keywords com3 com4 lines 19 help need implement com3 com4 board i'm designing i'm finding dificult track definition \( hardware \) com3 com4 io adresses fact com3 shares irq4 com1 com4 shares irq3 com2 , except exactly irq sharing done clear especially existing com1 2 allow irq sharing standard \? \? \? allow different irq used please answer email neil stone oz au thanks advance neil
hamilton romulus ehs uiuc edu \( wayne hamilton \) subject null modem 25 pin serial article news organization university illinois urbana lines 57 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 bruce maynard \( chi il us \) wrote article psuvm psu edu mitch psuvm psu edu writes someone give specs null modem cable , get crossed \) psuvm psu edu 's easy one carry 25 pins straight thru , exception pins 2 3 , crossed someone else already mentioned , n't carry thru 23 pins plan , minimal null modem sg \( 7 \) sg \( 7 \) td \( 2 \) rd \( 3 \) rd \( 3 \) td \( 2 \) 're transfering files 2 pcs , ought work \( unless comm program \) plan b , null modem modem control sg \( 7 \) sg \( 7 \) td \( 2 \) rd \( 3 \) rd \( 3 \) td \( 2 \) dcd \( 8 \) dtr \( 20 \) dtr \( 20 \) dcd \( 8 \) comm software wait dcd transferring anything software raise dtr enable modem accept call cable , side 's dtr drive 's dcd plan c , null modem hardware flow control sg \( 7 \) sg \( 7 \) td \( 2 \) rd \( 3 \) rd \( 3 \) td \( 2 \) rts \( 4 \) cts \( 5 \) cts \( 5 \) rts \( 4 \) high speed transfers , want flow control plan , deluxe null modem \( combine b c \) sg \( 7 \) sg \( 7 \) td \( 2 \) rd \( 3 \) rd \( 3 \) td \( 2 \) rts \( 4 \) cts \( 5 \) cts \( 5 \) rts \( 4 \) dcd \( 8 \) dtr \( 20 \) dtr \( 20 \) dcd \( 8 \) one ideal leaves dsr ri \( rarely used anymore \) 're really paranoid , 8th wire spend , might add fg \( 1 \) fg \( 1 \) pin numbers \( obviously \) 25 pin connectors n't 9 pin pinout handy wayne hamilton hamilton osiris cso uiuc edu box 476 , urbana , il 61801 \( 217 \) 384 \( voice \) , \( bbs \)
bitnet subject wanted slot card vga hdd organization lines 18 hello , looking pc card following features controller ide \( bus \) controller 2 standard \( \) vga graphics including feature connector \( important ! \) distributors kind card , found yet help , please mail de thanks lot , martin mueller
andrei univ orleans fr \( andrei \) subject program pc keyboard \? organization university orleans , france lines 17 hi , heard somewhere exist programmable keyboards , eg one program displays keys show specific characters , et c mean way transmitting non trivial data kb \( opposed standard numlock , specs \) inside pc software \? found corresponding reference specs pc kb interface anyone ideas \? \( except may encode data sequences standard commands mentioned , would n't look neat , besides , would one xt \? \) great thanks advance , andrew
des inmos co uk \( david shepherd \) subject dcc next dat dds like st lines 25 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 brownvm brown edu wrote far tell , md offshoot technology already exists mo drive mo drives exist already computers 're expensive bit slow , disks \( 128 mb disks \) dan read recent article personal computer world mainly new digit formats \( dcc md \) end talked nice would use data storage brief calculation much data could store author talking someone sony formats mentioned get reply md purely audio format , would n't use data , pressed info mo sony man basically admitted slight md ! think original poster wanting mo drives md audio player prices 'd assume problem md system higher tolerances mo system ear n't pick occasional bit error well archiving program ! david shepherd des inmos co uk tel x 625 inmos ltd , 1000 west , , bristol , n't like rates , n't like poll tax , wo n't like council tax nicholas ridley
unizh ch \( \) subject problem maxtor spins reason keywords maxtor 340 , adaptec 1542 , scsi organization university zurich , switzerland x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 53 please help following strange problem maxtor 340 drive 386 clone would time time , obvious reason spin completely \( one tell sound \) simply refuse accessed dos reacts error \( drive cannot accessed something like \) unfortunately , cannot reproduce error sometimes occurs often , sometimes less last time happened wanted demonstrate software colleague would like know anybody experienced similar problems n't like take thing dealer told 's nothing wrong checked post group maxtor , n't seem one problems however , one describes problem , also different configuration thanx advance e mailed help peter list equipment computer 386 33 , 2mb adaptec 1542 scsi master maxtor scsi ii hard drive nec cdr 83 cd rom reader \( problem remains cd rom removed \) et4000 vga card config sys files 30 device c dos setver exe device c windows himem sys device c system aspi4dos sys device c system sys dos high country 041 , , c dos country sys device c dos display sys con \( ega , , 1 \) bat c windows smartdrive sys path c windows c dos set temp c dos mode con prepare \( \( 437 \) c dos ega cpi \) mode con select 437 sg , , c dos keyboard sys c system mscdex l v peter schneider seminar e mail es unizh ch universitaet zurich phone \( 41 1 \) 257 47 fax \( 41 1 \) 262 1204 ch zurich switzerland
robert pest \( robert \) subject ati gup vpic nntp posting host pest uq oz au organization csiro lines 13 could someone tell ati graphic ultra pro supported version vpic located thanks robert email replies would appreciated \) robert hell robert uq oz au engage ludicrous speed
v063kcbp ubvmsd cc buffalo edu \( mitch \) subject thanks ! \( backing masters \) keywords misled , confused , advice , ! organization university buffalo lines 8 news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host ubvmsd cc buffalo edu quick thanks many explained backing masters apparently copy protected used program unable handle high density \( old shit \) surprised hear programs high density disks copy protection , someone back said huh ! learn something new every day ! mitch
wimsey bc ca \( mark fraser \) subject irq limits help organization wimsey information services distribution na lines 23 would like advice configure 486 accept com1 com2 \( currently irq 4 3 \) lpt1 \( irq7 \) bus mouse \( irq5 \) sound card \( idea set \) using irq2 bus mouse many cycles , caused loss communications floppy disks , problems could , suppose , switch 2 com devices externally , disable second port super io card , really want available could sound card use irq2 without works \? replies subscribed newsgroup assume faq somewhere \( rather , i'm sure someone tell \) thanks mark fraser
phantom diku dk \( \) subject 980 1mb sec hd transfer slow 486dx 50 eisa keywords scsi organization department computer science , u copenhagen lines 27 hi recently switched old amiga 500 486dx 50 computer configuration 486dx 50 mhz 8 256 kb eisa \( micronics motherboard asic eisa 50mhz \) 16mb ram 248 mb harddisk , scsi eisa cache controller use 0 harddisk benchmark , get harddisk data transfer 980 kb sec sometimes 1mb sec good \? thought eisa could get 2mb sec somewhere manual harddisk read , host adapters need perform low level format optimize harddisk performance system , need \? guy know , gets hd transfer 1 2mb sec , st3283a isa 486dx 50 , isa system faster \? anything get harddisk \? thanks phantom diku dk \( e mail \) working sign live tape \? \?
robert desonia hal9k ann arbor mi us \( robert desonia \) subject 486dx 50 vs 486dx2 50 \? distribution world organization hal 9000 bbs , w net hq , ann arbor , michigan , usa reply robert desonia hal9k ann arbor mi us \( robert desonia \) lines 30 ay many recent advertisements seen 486dx 50 486dx ay based systems first really exists imply ay circuitry motherboard works speed , opposite ay latter , internals cpu working 50mhz \? ay ay many thanx advance ! ay ay andrew andrew , yes dx dx2 version 50mhz 486 considering buying one , definitely go dx nice size external cache ! performance far greater dx2 internal 8k cache work 50mhz , dx potentially much larger cache work 50mhz neither systems could actually run program main memory , since dram still slow high bus speed \( 60ns 16 66mhz 50mhz \) rdd winqwk 2 0b 0 unregistered evaluation copy kmail 2 95d w net hq , hal9k ann arbor mi us , 1 313 663 4173 3959 hal 9000 bbs qwk usenet gateway four 14400 v 32bis dial ins free usenet mail 200 newsgroups ! pcboard 14 5am uupcb kmail call 1 313 663 4173 663 3959 member eff , asp , asad 1500mb disk serving ann arbor since 1988
robert desonia hal9k ann arbor mi us \( robert desonia \) subject n't understand si distribution world organization hal 9000 bbs , w net hq , ann arbor , michigan , usa reply robert desonia hal9k ann arbor mi us \( robert desonia \) lines 54 mg students \( neural iss nus sg \) wrote mg went buying simms recently , sales person told mg 9 chip simms 3 chip simms , one cannot use mg use one , use type n't believe everything told tell mixing ok , ca n't see mixing one bank unless different speeds \( e g mixing 60ns 100ns simms one bank \) two differ type chips uses assuming simms \( 9 bit wide \) , two equivalent configuration 3 chip simm uses two 4 bit wide \( 1m 4 bit \) one 1 bit wide chip \( total 9 bit wide \) 9 bit simm uses nine 1 bit wide chips equivalent way simm board simm interface , act 9 bit wide simms \( 2 4 1 9 1 \) sorry techie ya mg similarly , one cannot plug two 1mb simms one 4mb simms gi mg system total 6 meg \? \? system supports mg 8 meg \( 8 simm slots \) , plug 4 4mb simms give mg 16mb \? \? sounds correct problem computer takes 9 bit wide simms , mix different sizes one bank ask \? simple , understand banks assuming 32 bit cpu \( 386dx 486 \) , data bus \( e g mechanism retrieve data memory \) 32 bits wide , computer expects see 32 bits asks data get bandwidth \( 32 bit wide \) , motherboard links 4 \( one bit data , parity , ignore simple explaination \) get \( 9 1 \) 4 32 bits means simm bank stores 1 4 32 bit wide data 16 bit bus , two simms linked together get 16 bit wide data , reason 286 banks 2 simms wide , 32 bit banks 4 simms wide computer required \( e g 32 bit wide data 4 parity bits , used ps 2s \) , could upgrade one simm time hope message head , answer question simple could said , said ' rdd winqwk 2 0b 0 unregistered evaluation copy kmail 2 95d w net hq , hal9k ann arbor mi us , 1 313 663 4173 3959 hal 9000 bbs qwk usenet gateway four 14400 v 32bis dial ins free usenet mail 200 newsgroups ! pcboard 14 5am uupcb kmail call 1 313 663 4173 663 3959 member eff , asp , asad 1500mb disk serving ann arbor since 1988
robert desonia hal9k ann arbor mi us \( robert desonia \) subject dx3 99 distribution world organization hal 9000 bbs , w net hq , ann arbor , michigan , usa reply robert desonia hal9k ann arbor mi us \( robert desonia \) lines 24 km 486dx3 99 anything myth \? n't heard km source trust , sure n't see ads dx3 99 km machines computer shopper intel pretty busy pentium km right ca n't seem introducing competition heard rumor well , story differed intel coming clock 486 , clone ibm got rumor pretty good source \( designs computer equipment , hav never wrong let , first time everything \) hear rumor mill turning rdd winqwk 2 0b 0 unregistered evaluation copy kmail 2 95d w net hq , hal9k ann arbor mi us , 1 313 663 4173 3959 hal 9000 bbs qwk usenet gateway four 14400 v 32bis dial ins free usenet mail 200 newsgroups ! pcboard 14 5am uupcb kmail call 1 313 663 4173 663 3959 member eff , asp , asad 1500mb disk serving ann arbor since 1988
robert desonia hal9k ann arbor mi us \( robert desonia \) subject simm speed distribution world organization hal 9000 bbs , w net hq , ann arbor , michigan , usa reply robert desonia hal9k ann arbor mi us \( robert desonia \) lines 27 b bk possible plug 70ns 60ns simms motherboard saying bk wants 80ns simms \? n't troubles heard machines problems slower recommended memory speeds , never faster bk also , possible plug simms different bk speeds motherboard \? ie 2 megs 70ns 2 megs 6 bk something like \? sure 4 70ns simms one bank 4 60ns simms \( 486 \) would n't recommend mixing speeds within bank , safe side rdd org winqwk 2 0b 0 unregistered evaluation copy kmail 2 95d w net hq , hal9k ann arbor mi us , 1 313 663 4173 3959 hal 9000 bbs qwk usenet gateway four 14400 v 32bis dial ins free usenet mail 200 newsgroups ! pcboard 14 5am uupcb kmail call 1 313 663 4173 663 3959 member eff , asp , asad 1500mb disk serving ann arbor since 1988
dfr ioc co uk \( doug \) subject vesa local bus lines 7 nntp posting host ioc co uk organization intelligent office company ltd possible plug ordinary isa card vesa localbus slot \? running slots one spare localbus slot doug , ioc ltd email dfr ioc co uk phone 44 81 528 cix compulink co uk fax 44 81 528
spring diku dk \( jesper honig spring \) subject compaq standard simm ram \( help \) organization department computer science , u copenhagen lines 19 hello , anyone tell possible put ordinary standard simm ram chips \( 70 ns \) compaq 4 50 compaq require special compaq ram chips please \( also \) email thanks advance jesper jesper honig spring , spring diku dk animals believed god university copenhagen , denmark devil would man
aaron bratcher fpm uchicago edu \( aaron l bratcher \) subject appletalk hookup \? article fpm mac aaron bratcher organization university chicago lines 3 ways hook appletalk network use apple laserwriter \? way use appleshare file server also \? less memory used better thanks help greatly appreciated
hparc0 aus hp com \( robin kenny \) subject cmos memory loss idea \? organization hp australasian response centre \( melbourne \) x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 5 lines 14 cmos backed \? dry cell batteries ni cad cell \? batteries may dead kean ucs mun ca \( kean ucs mun ca \) wrote friend 's computer recently failed recognize hard drive examination discovered cmos lost data problems discovered cmos restored , everything appeared work happened long period stable operation recent change addition second hard drive slave qemm installed along quite ideas \? computer 386dx ram , ati wonder xl card , year half old
volkert kub nl \( volkert \) subject 80486dx 50 vs 50 organization tilburg university , tilburg , netherlands nntp posting host kub nl lines 19 anonymous , saw posting choice 80486dx 50 50 wondering although dx 50 faster path 's external cache , n't choice dx2 50 one made work properly local bus \? mean , cache speed one thing , speed blocked video , get faster i'm willing speculate dx2 50 local bus 2 4 times fast dx 50 probably expensive \( cheap \) ! regards , jv name j v address 4 4847 hw holland e mail volkert kub nl oooo oooo
m88max tdb uu se \( max brante \) subject vga atari \? \? organization dept scientific computing , uppsala univ x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 11 possible connect atari monochrome monitor kind vga card \? someone done please let know thanx l l \( \) max brante m88max tdb uu se l l l l l l l l l \( \( \) l f r l l l l l l \( \) uppsala universitet
iisakkil lk hp 22 hut fi \( mika iisakkila \) subject dx3 99 reply robert desonia hal9k ann arbor mi us 's message 5 apr 93 23 53 00 gmt nntp posting host lk hp 22 hut fi organization helsinki university technology , finland lines 16 robert desonia hal9k ann arbor mi us \( robert desonia \) writes heard rumor well , story differed intel coming clock 486 , clone ibm rumour , ibm 's clock chip seen trade show last fall \( comdex something , n't \) people chip realize fpu , like 486sx , evil marketing ploy \( tm \) intel , n't \? 16k internal cache , probably saved silicon real estate went contract , ibm allowed sell 486 chips third parties , chips unlikely become available non ibm machines course , nothing prevents companies implementing dx3 99 , nobody n't even come real 486dx \( fpu \) clone yet \( although amd soon \) segmented memory helps structure software
gerthd mvs sas com \( thomas dachsel \) subject quantum prodrive 80at drive parameters needed article mvs organization sas institute inc lines 25 nntp posting host mvs sas com hi , got quantum prodrive 80at ide harddisk would like format trying format \( low level format , fdisk dos format \) , somehow messed parameters entered fdisk mbr exactly knowing suggested drive type 38 formats drive tried type 25 , gives around nominal 80mb could use user type 47 \? however , n't know actual parameters \( cylinders , heads , \) could someone give \? fdisk work together user type 47 \? please reply email gerthd mvs sas com thank , thomas thomas dachsel internet gerthd mvs sas com fidonet thomas dachsel camel fido de \( 2 247 40 \) dachsel sub org \( uucp germany , active \) phone 49 6221 \( work \) , 49 \( home \) fax 49 6221 snail sas institute gmbh , p box , w 6900 heidelberg tagline one bad sector ruin whole day
lance hartmann austin ibm com \( lance hartmann \) subject diamond stealth 24 windows problems ! ! ! summary users complain service diamond reply lance hartmann austin ibm com ibmpa awdpa ibm com organization ibm , austin keywords diamond video s3 windows lines 43 article dns1 nmsu edu dante nmsu edu \( \) writes stealth 24 card diamond using 640x480x16 win 3 1 driver card driver work fast windows drivers number bugs shadows remain windows erased text boxes often unreadable attempts get help diamond failed called tech support never able get past hold line \( toll call \) reasonable time \( ie \) leaving voice mail helped either bbs joke ! always many people download anything cannot even get file listing \( considers download ! \) faxed tech support group reponse bottom line looking fast card want use windows , get diamond product try another vendor , wish others may better experiences , , , share sentiments posted though original stealth vram , relatively recent windows drivers card evolved point decent performance note still couple modes cannot use \( ie \) due shadowing , mis drawn check boxes , etc believe version 2 01 's recent release , 'd appreciate someone would drop note let know n't able get bbs lately check naturally , diamond n't even bother notifying fixes releases diamond helpful finally reached right person curing windows' problems due address conflict conflicting addresses \( , 2e8 \) omitted least version diamond vram manual hope corrected tech rep explained s3 based boards use addresses confirmed validity statement upgrade motherboard near future \( hopefully form local bus \) , 'll seek video solution someone diamond lance hartmann \( lance hartmann austin ibm com ibmpa awdpa ibm com \) yes , ' ' \( percent sign \) network address statements , comments , opinions , etc herein reflect author shall misconstrued ibm anyone else matter
christen astro ocis temple edu \( carl christensen \) subject 8 cards 6 card motherboard \? organization temple university lines 16 nntp posting host astro ocis temple edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 may dumbest question year , way expand 6 slot motherboard \( 16 bit \) get usual 8 \? case slots 8 , 'd like get scanner , cards i'm already max 'd ! i'm hoping simple solution exists , e g adapter turns one slot three n't mind turns 8 bit slots , put card , midi card , soundblaster card cards 16 bit \( ide floppy , svga , modem \) expander , screw performance everything else \? 'd hate buy new motherboard ! \( carl christensen , , , dept computer science christen astro ocis temple edu temple university curiouser curiouser ! lc ``` philadelphia , pa usa
husak ux1 cso uiuc edu \( stephen r husak \) subject tape drive problems article ux1 489 organization university illinois urbana lines 17 please reply via e mail since job related colorado jumbo back system one places employment eaten two tapes winding tape spool easy fix tape drive fried \? simply need cleaning \? comments appreciated ! stephen husak trying , trying say , i'm trying tell anything n't know woke today depeche mode nothing music masses stephen r husak husak ux1 cso uiuc edu illinois
uicvm uic edu subject gateway 2000 486dx 33 noisy article uicvm 93096 distribution usa organization university illinois chicago , academic computer center lines 15 article bu edu , acs2 bu edu says received gateway 2000 486dx 33 mini desktop system first thing noticed plugged power cord noise comes fan fact hear noise gateway equipped western hard drive , noise probably coming fan western drives notoriously noisy hand , n't western drive , maybe fan 's alot except around cpu somehow barry aldridge u chicago 24 hour bar b q standard old disclaimer
hsh se \( \) subject 980 1mb sec hd transfer slow 486dx 50 eisa keywords scsi organization computer club , , sweden lines 44 1993apr6 odin diku dk phantom diku dk \( \) writes hi recently switched old amiga 500 486dx 50 computer configuration 486dx 50 mhz 8 256 kb eisa \( micronics motherboard asic eisa 50mhz \) 16mb ram 248 mb harddisk , scsi eisa cache controller use 0 harddisk benchmark , get harddisk data transfer 980 kb sec sometimes 1mb sec good \? thought eisa could get 2mb sec somewhere manual harddisk read , host adapters need perform low level format optimize harddisk performance system , need \? guy know , gets hd transfer 1 2mb sec , st3283a isa 486dx 50 , isa system faster \? anything get harddisk \? 1 dont rely benchmarks often show incorrect due different tsr programs 2 scsi often needs driver get speed card 3 make sure card operating mode 2x faster 4 disable disconnect get kb loose mouse \( get 2 3mb dx50 lb scsi lb maxtor coretest \) \( get 1 3mb \) vii internet hsh se 853 52 sweden tel 46 \( 0 \) 60 act sweden fax nope ! advanced computer technology bbs yet
louray seas gwu edu \( michael panayiotakis \) subject share optimization tips article seas 1993apr6 organization george washington university lines 46 article 1993apr5 cbfsb cb att com cbnewsg cb att com \( richard \) writes article geraldo cc utexas edu jbodnar ccwf cc utexas edu \( john bodnar \) writes according e p unl edu \( edgar pearlstein \) 's another one 5 computer arrived following statement config sys file stacks 9 , 256 changed stacks 8 , 128 saved 1296 bytes maybe could lowered even , n't tried exactly regardless microsoft says , set stacks 0 , 0 every single computer installed windows simple 386sx 16 486dx 50 eisa motherboards , tiga adapters , intel ethernet express cards , caching scsi controllers dtc problem yet , extra 2k gained means lot conventional memory programs like pcb john bodnar liked developing windows university texas austin applications , never inhaled internet jbodnar ccwf cc utexas edu uucp ! cs utexas ! ut ccwf ! jbodnar borland ceo philippe kahn remember reading somewhere \( qemm manual , think \) stack 9 , 256 needed windows setup program otherwise , use stack 0 , 0 rich hmmmmmm got comp windows pre installed , stacks still 9 , 256 needed setup , would n't morons take \? \? \? \( also , n't qemm manual , came comp , qemm manual , could anyone verify \? \? \? \) mickey pe michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace ! uunet ! seas gwu edu ! louray jack straw wichita , cut buddy , dug shallow grave , lay body \( gd \)
dejesus eniac seas upenn edu \( cavalier \) subject help needed organization university pennsylvania lines 128 nntp posting host eniac seas upenn edu hello hope somebody help currently working project trying communicate ibm 386 phoenix bios , using c , board made intel cpu uart chip board works fine transmit command terminal emulation mode kermit , seems something wrong initialization protocol used try c need access unit built using c , sizable chunk c code using perform calculations operations difficult code assembly language included assembly code running c code trying use anyone show something blatantly incorrectly missing lack knowledge rs 232 serial communications , please e mail wrote assembly language wait character received check 0x20 character , 0x20 received , leds indicate two c programs written nothing , set com port 2 send 0x20 character one uses bioscom \( \) function bios h uses software interrupt \( \) function dos h triple checked baud rate \( 2400 \) parity \( none \) stop bits \( 1 \) character length \( 8 bits \) interrupt calls \( \) currently , loss may wrong hardware gurus want comment \? thanks alot , hubert de jesus dejesus eniac seas upenn edu intel asm command equ command register 8155 porta equ port 8155 equ high 8 bits 8155 timer equ low 8 bits 8155 timer equ uart data register uartcmd equ uart command register org sram location mvi , set low timer bits sta mvi , set high timer bits sta mvi , start timer enable port sta command mvi , display 11 7 segment leds sta porta mvi , clear uart command sta uartcmd sta uartcmd sta uartcmd mvi , internally reset uart sta uartcmd remove data mvi , init uart 8 data bits , sta uartcmd parity , 1 stop bit , async mvi , enable transmit receive sta uartcmd init uartcmd read status register ani \? jz init , loop read data character cpi ' ' character 0x20 \? init , loop mvi , character received , sta porta display 22 7 segment leds end c using bioscom \( \) include stdio h include stdlib h include bios h define init 0 define send 1 define receive 2 define status 3 define com2 1 void main \( \) char abyte abyte bioscom \( init , abyte , com2 \) printf \( initialized comm port 2 n \) \( ! \( bioscom \( status , 0 , com2 \) \) \) abyte ' ' bioscom \( send , abyte , com2 \) printf \( sent start character n \) c using \( \) include stdio h include stdlib h include dos h include bios h main \( \) union regs registers registers h ah registers h al registers x dx 0x01 \( , registers , registers \) printf \( com2 initialized n \) registers h ah 0x01 registers h al 0x20 registers x dx 0x01 \( , registers , registers \) printf \( sent start character n \)
binky nas nasa gov \( nicholas \) subject gw2000 simms organization nas program , nasa ames research center , moffett field , ca lines 29 actually 72 pin come 4 , 8 , 16 , 32 soon interested 4s 8s , may able help please call 415 324 4 00 pm pdt may interested trade nab nasa 's done mirrors article darkstar ucsc edu , banshee cats ucsc edu \( gates dawn \) writes bu edu nshah acs2 bu edu writes gateway2000 483 33 local bus system 4 slots simms either use 4 16mb simms question received 70ns simm 30 pins slot motherboard least 70 pins get wrong simm still use simm , although pins slot would never encountered long slot simms anyone suggestions \? ca n't get hold gateway yet thanks please post net nshah acs bu edu yes got wrong simm need 70 pin simms 4 16 meg flavors gates dawn banshee cats ucsc edu calling head \? dod 0667 friend beast banshee ucscb ucsc edu 2 , 3 , 5 , 7 , 13 , 17 , 19 , 31 , 61 , 89 , 107 , 127 , 521 , 607 banshee ucscb bitnet
europa tomcat raleigh ibm com \( welch bryan \) subject warranty extension credit company applies computer \? distribution usa nntp posting host tomcat raleigh ibm com organization ibm , research triangle park , north carolina lines 36 article mll cup hp com , staggers cup hp com \( ken staggers \) writes yang \( yang titan ucs umass edu \) wrote , , credit card companies offer double warranty one year , namely , make purchase credit card , get additional warranty one year apply purchase computers \? wonder anyone used catch \? thanks advance post results big computer purchase one key points ability use american express card read fine print double warranty policies amex citibank visa sure , allow double warranty computers , citibank maximum claim 250 00 could imagine trying get monitor mother board fixed 250 00 \? amex limit claims remember , use amex , must either send copy warranty info 30 days purchase , must call pre register send paperwork within 90 days purchase \( pre register pak arrived today \) citibank visa requires pre registration ken talked rep mastercard regarding maximum claim , notify warranty item needs repair ca n't repaired , get amount paid curiously though , gold mastercard limit 1000 claims definitely upgrading card \) bryan bryan welch amateur radio n0sfg internet europa vnet ibm com \( best \) , bwelch scf nmsu edu everything perish save love music scots gaelic proverb
tal brownvm brown edu \( \) subject eps technologies experience anyone \? organization brown university providence , rhode island usa lines 29 nntp posting host brownvm brown edu summary 486dx 33mhz , recommendations , eps x news software bnn via bnn post v1 0 beta rough start purchasing 486 system \( see earlier post \) , i'm trying i'm looking following system offered eps technologies 486dx 33mhz w 256k static ram cache , ami bios 3 32 bit vesa local bus slots , 3 16 bit slots , 1 8 bit slot teac 1 2 1 44 mb floppy drives maxtor 170 mb hard drive \( 15 ms \) ide w 64k cache buffer 32 bit vesa local bus video card w 1mb ram 1024 x 768 ni \( think 's orchid fahrenheit 1280 card \) 14 ni multisync monitor 1024 x 768 101 keyboard 200 watt power supply windows 3 1 , mouse , dos 6 0 3 years limited warranty 1 year site service i'm probably going add 125 15 flat screen digital monitor , also want go least 8 mb ram \( 159 extra \) anyone bought eps technologies , particularly system like one i'm considering i'm especially interested warrantee service anyone recommend companies offer similar packages , support , comparable prices \( see fastmicro bit \) thanks advance , toby tal brownvm tal brownvm brown edu brown university
heinboke tnt uni hannover de \( andreas \) subject looking ad pc board keywords ad reply heinboke tnt uni hannover de organization universitaet hannover , lines 43 friend mine please send answers directly \( e mail adress see \) ! highspeed analog digital pc board hello ladies gentleman ! looking highspeed pc board sampling rate 250 mhz resolution 8 bit sampling rate arranged interleave mode time equivalent sampling yields 2 , 4 8 times higher sampling rate converter uses non interleave mode board must content converter similar analog devices ad ad available faster pc board \( 16 bit slot , isa \) specification better , please send email uni hannover dbp de telefax 49 511 thanks advance help ! sincerely matthias , university hannover , germany andreas heinboke tnt uni hannover de wisdom print shirts
root zeos com \( superuser \) subject zeos vesa video changes specs organization zeos international , ltd lines 61 know , recently changed standard vesa local bus video card ncr based card new diamond stealth 24 vlb card packages 2 , 3 , 4 \( package 1 still ncr \) also added 149 upgrade stealth 24 ncr diamond viper product list comparisons different cards configurations offer ncr stealth 24 vlb viper vlb colors 16 , 256 16 , 256 , 32k , 64k , 16 7m 16 , 256 , 32k , 64k , 16 7m colors 16 , 256 16 , 256 , 32k , 64k 16 , 256 , 32k , 64k 1024x768 colors 16 , 256 16 , 256 16 , 256 1280x1024 colors 16 16 16 video processor ncr s3 86c805 weitek power 9000 video ram 1m 1m 1m max ram addressable vid processor 3m 2m 2m ram type dram dram vram user ram upgrade \? \( sockets \) \( sockets \) yes \( thru diamond \) refresh 60 72 hz 60 72 hz 60 72 hz refresh 56 72 hz 56 72 hz 56 72 hz 1024x768 refresh 44 70 hz 43 72 hz 43 72 hz refresh 43 hz 43 60 hz 43 74 hz 26 pin vesa feature connector yes conflict port addr \( com4 \) yes drivers win 3 1 yes yes yes acad 9 10 11 yes yes yes acad 12 yes yes vesa yes yes yes os 2 , win 3 1 winmarks 10 5m 21 50m l viper vlb 2m video ram also gives 16 7m , 1024x768 32k 64k , 024 256 color s3 based cards , since downward compatible , conflict 2e8 diamond admits conflict exist stealth 24 viper manual incorrectly lists s3 port addresses conflict autocad 12 drivers currently available stealth , speedstar 24x , stealth 24 vlb , viper vlb obtained diamond tech support , 408 736 2000 bbs os 2 2 0 supported standard vga cards svga drivers available near future windows nt released yet , drivers available currently diamond hopes current products supported win nt release , nt disks ncr testing coming tests ran tech support department zeos 1024x768x256 zeos dx2 66 results official diamond results dx2 66 , 1024x768 256 colors refresh
hao ucar edu \( national center atmospheric research \) subject please help ! \( looking books \) distribution na organization high altitude observatory , boulder co 80303 lines 6 hi netters ! often troubles pc would like fix book show fix pc \( hardware , monitor , printer problems etc \) course , book would tell exact problem pc , least give general idea might wrong thanks lot help
hao ucar edu \( national center atmospheric research \) subject looking books distribution na organization high altitude observatory , boulder co 80303 lines 3 hi netters ! i'm looking books showing fix hardware problem please let know books mind thanks
ccscola columbia ncr com \( dan moyer \) subject motherboard bios nntp posting host ccscola organization ncr corp , e columbia , columbia , sc lines 19 article 1993apr6 news unomaha edu cse \( kok hon yin \) writes someone please tell get best deal micronics ami 486 66 motherboard vl bus \? reply thru e mail group purchased super voyager vlb 33mhz board company month ago n't mailing address clyde advertises regularly pc week also reached via compuserve phone number 1 800 836 think competitive prices compared ami , plus liked fact 's ee knows 's talking concerning hardware , easily reached via compuserve non questions , informative customers phone regards dan moyer dan moyer columbiasc ncr com
towwang statler engin umich edu \( tow wang hui \) subject needed prodesigner iis drivers keywords orchid prodesigner iis windows 3 1 article srvr1 reply towwang engin umich edu distribution world organization university michigan \( caen \) lines 22 nntp posting host statler engin umich edu originator towwang statler engin umich edu could anybody please provide copy windows 3 1 drivers grabbers orchid technologies use prodesigner iis isa video card \? currently access modem dial orchid bbs help , please following , convenient 1 \) copy binary files directory readable user cell andrew file system 2 \) upload binary files anonymous ftp site \( allowed \) 3 \) uuencode files send electronic mail please notify electronic mail towwang caen engin umich edu thanks advance francisco
rintintin colorado edu \( roger alan \) subject modem sale nntp posting host rintintin colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 4 selling usr hst 14 4k baud modem compression upgrades manual , lost going one side u point modem setup max throughput , built help , quick reference guide bottom , use difficult means offers \?
glang slee01 srl ford com \( gordon lang \) subject ibm value point organization ford motor company research laboratory lines 33 nntp posting host slee01 srl ford com x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 acifuent \( acifuent isluga puc cl \) wrote hi ! change 286 soon , read something ibm ps value point anyone one \? video card really 24 bit card \? much cost u \? last question ps value point 486 sx 25mhz upgrade 486 dx2 66mhz \? \? \? thank much advance ! alejandro cifuentes h acifuent isluga puc cl questions answered dealer ibm value points , , provide unsolicited advice amusing kind advice today \( 4 6 93 \) ibm supposed officially announce introduction vesa local bus value point systems systems still board video disk far better prior value point systems , get vesa local bus \( future \? \) upgrades going buy three 17 monitors \( also newly available \) , one three immediately upgraded ultrastor 34f caching scsi disk controller either ati gup viper graphics board buy 486sx sytem personal philosophy upgrade policy loss free earn money pay taxes , spend money pay taxes \( e get coming going \) translated means take infrequent large steps far better short term long term avoid sx models go straight dx dx 2 models gordon
nyx cs du edu \( \) subject netbios bios summary netbios keywords netbios organization university denver , dept math comp sci lines 9 hello everyone , could anyone tell find information netbios bios interrupt calls book maybe ftp site thank advance
himb iniki soest hawaii edu \( liz camarra \) subject zeos vesa video changes specs organization school ocean earth science technology lines 19 article 1993apr06 zeos com root zeos com \( superuser \) writes ncr stealth 24 vlb viper vlb colors 16 , 256 16 , 256 , 32k , 64k , 16 7m 16 , 256 , 32k , 64k , 16 7m stuff deleted video ram 1m 1m 1m max ram addressable vid processor 3m 2m 2m note , even though 805 address 2 megs dram , stealth 24 vlb handle 1 meg , unless diamond newer design \( special deal zeos \) stephen lau , elec engineering , univ hawaii using friend 's account waiting new grad account death fm synthesis ! go gus !
mrm st andrews ac uk \( malcolm r \) subject wen 20 monitor help organization st andrews university , scotland lines 5 anybody info monitor manufacturers \? help e mail please scotty
tso cephalo neusc bcm tmc edu \( dan ts'o \) subject much memory wp windows \? organization baylor college medicine , houston , tx lines 8 distribution world nntp posting host cephalo neusc bcm tmc edu article rave larc nasa gov larc nasa gov writes \) documentation says wordperfect windows , requires 4 ram , \) try install laptop get enough memory error message \) 've unloaded everything possibly could still , enough memory \) anyone ideas might happening sure 're running windows real mode \? windows 3 1 \? permanent swapfile built \?
dallas ravel udel edu \( paul lewis \) subject scsi help nntp posting host ravel udel edu organization university delaware distribution us lines 24 howdy , sorry covered one pc illiterate friends asked help install drdos 6 0 nec sx \( 386sx 16 \) course , said problem went work unfortunately , drdos refuses recognize hard drive installation , even though still able boot hard drive using old dos discovered using 8 bit seagate scsi controller st scsi drive booted drdos 6 0 floppy second time ran fdisk see could access drive lo behold primary 46 5 mbyte partition intact \( created dos 3 1 less , n't think could go partition older doses could wrong \) tried remove primary partition , would n't allow unaware anything special done scsi drive \( kinda expected work like ide mfm rll drive dos installations \) suggestions would greatly appreciated \( except throw garbage buy new pc \) thanks advance , paul mr scsi !
kenny castle ed ac uk \( k j macdonald \) subject upgrade 386sx 25 386dx 40 \? organization edinburgh university lines 41 i'm thinking new motherboard pc running linux main os , small dos partition left games current setup 386sx 25 \( amd \) 25 \( itt think \) 9 mbytes 70ns simms , \( 120 100 \) mbyte ide basically two choices 1 \) get 386dx 40 40 2 \) get sort 486 unfortunately live uk computer prices far high first option works pounds 200 486 boards start price sx 25 couple questions 1 \) much improvement speed notice get 386dx copro remember i'm using 32 bit os , alot floating point operations 2 \) much faster would 486dx 33 386dx 40 copro \? get upgradeable board 386dx 40 wait amd pentium price pressure reduce costs 486 \? experiences helpful kenny ps example prices 386dx 40 copro board 270 486dx33 board 580 kenneth macdonald e mail kenny castle ed ac uk dept geology geophysics university edinburgh scotland
thomas dachsel gerthd mvs sas com subject boot problem ide controller nntp posting host mvs sas com organization sas institute inc lines 25 hi , 've got multi card \( ide controller serial parallel interface \) two floppy drives \( 5 1 4 , 3 1 2 \) quantum prodrive 80at connected able format hard disk , could boot boot drive \( disk drive matter \) remove disk drive press reset switch , led drive continues glow , hard disk accessed guess must problem either multi card floppy disk drive settings \( jumper configuration \? \) someone hint could reason please reply email gerthd mvs sas com thanks , thomas thomas dachsel internet gerthd mvs sas com fidonet thomas dachsel camel fido de \( 2 247 40 \) dachsel sub org \( uucp germany , active \) phone 49 6221 \( work \) , 49 \( home \) fax 49 6221 snail sas institute gmbh , p box , w 6900 heidelberg tagline one bad sector ruin whole day
towwang statler engin umich edu \( tow wang hui \) subject floppy file copying article srvr1 reply towwang engin umich edu distribution world organization university michigan \( caen \) lines 15 nntp posting host statler engin umich edu originator towwang statler engin umich edu silly question frequently edit small files need make copies several floppy diskettes size format , computer equipped one 3 5 hd drive one 5 25 hd drive ca n't copying without swapping files temporarily hard disk \( 99 9 full \) using standard msdos 5 0 commands \? know diskcopy works small selections files , txt ! maybe 'll write file copy command c , idea amuse thanks help francisco
ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( claus \) subject needed , large , fast backup utility organization university buffalo lines 15 news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host ubvmsb cc buffalo edu i'm looking better method back files currently using uses dc tapes need capacity 600 mb future backups dos files would appreciative information backup devices manufacturers products flopticals , dat , tape , anything possible , please include price , backup speed , manufacturer \( phone \? \) , opinions quality reliability please e mail , 'll send summaries interested thanx advance , claus student finances records
encore com \( mike palmer \) subject dos 6 0 organization encore computer corporation nntp posting host sysgem1 encore com lines 9 larc nasa gov \( j keith \) writes hi , anyone know type cabling required use capability , provided dos 6 0 \? tried null modem cable two copies procomm talking happily one another kept saying connection made gave used floppies !
guyd austin ibm com \( guy dawson \) subject dx3 99 originator guyd pal500 austin ibm com organization ibm austin lines 32 article 1993apr3 aio jsc nasa gov , mancus sweetpea jsc nasa gov \( keith mancus \) writes article 1993apr3 kpc com , kpc com \( phil \) writes people performance driven enough n't people would n't buy pentium \( tm \) systems first place since could buy 486dx3 99 would run existing applications faster certainly 486dx3 99 league pentium \( tm \) 486dx3 99 anything myth \? n't heard source trust , sure n't see ads dx3 99 machines computer shopper intel pretty busy pentium right ca n't seem introducing competition ibm displayed 486dx3 99 technology demo means 's neat technology commitment make item keith mancus mancus butch jsc nasa gov n5wvr mancus sweetpea jsc nasa gov black powder alcohol , states cities fall , back 's wall leslie fish guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns co uk tel hoskyns uk 71 251 2128 guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa 512 838 3377
infonode ingr com \( ted b \) subject local dealer service \( infamous gateway 2000 video monitor problem info requested ! \) article infonode 1993apr6 organization intergraph corporation , huntsville , al lines 42 article psuvm psu edu greg psuvm psu edu writes article odin corp sgi com , mikey sgi com \( mike yang \) says , going mailorder gateway , save 13 plus , get technical support phone , free software package fun trying get hold technical support phone least locally walk right dealer tell wrong , fix long take fixing \? use new parts repairs substitute used parts without knowledge \? charge repairs warranty claims due improper maintenance part \? comes local dealers fun getting consistently good support techs salesmen , trained technicians , high rate fun getting warranty work done quickly fun getting warranty work done cheaply , even done period , unless paid service contract service technician , service manager , franchise another retail computer place , know i'm talking also know local service scam retail computer dealers like push 're selling 's old song car dealers singing years buy 'll get good service always treat customers right ! buy competition 'll sorry need service experienced mail order buyers know mail order companies give excellent service , including overnight replacement parts , site calls , etc probably local dealers give good service , think local dealers give good service , wrong many prove point , i'm sure others net better job ted \( infonode ingr com \)
cup edu subject gateway uart chip \? distribution usa organization california university pennsylvania , california , pa lines 27 article netcom com , spiro netcom com \( philip n spiro \) writes george \( sas upenn edu \) wrote article netcom com netcom com \( johan \) writes seems using 16450 uart chip machine 16550 uart chip , 16 bytes buffer \? , 's according sales critter spoke last week , though , gateway use socketed chips able find 15 upgrade chip minor nuisance whatever 's worth , gw salesman said 16450 would 14 soldered board someone recent gw pls settle inspection ! phil phil spiro spiro netcom com 415 964 mine 16450 right card would need 16550 anyway \? 've heard , 're multitasking , fifo buffer keeps loosing data right \? bryan math comp sci cal u pa
staffan alsys se \( staffan k e \) subject genius mouse driver summary genius mouse driver wanted keywords mouse , genius organization alsys ab \( telesoft ab \) x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 15 hello fellow netlanders genius mouse model gm 6 , driver 's 3 button mouse anyone got one could mail driver \( config sys autoexec bat \) would happy staffan internet telesoft ab staffan telesoft se 10 , phone 46 8 , sweden fax 46 8
shc cbnewsk cb att com \( stephen chu \) subject application errors win31 organization keywords memory errors lines 60 h e l p ! problem i'm getting increasing frustrated every day background pc american bios \( clone 386 sx \) 32m ram config sys file device c dos himem sys dos high , umb device c windows emm386 exe noems files 30 buffers 30 stack 9 , 256 autoexec bat file using smartdrv exe c cmos set running 0 wait state read write cache ram problem application error win31 started newly installed win31 installed excel run excel , problem permanent swap file size place windows ok , proceed install norton desktop windows version 2 0 problem installation also allow ndw alter autoexec bat \( nav running c \) problem came try \( bring excel excel running right middle like click selection mouse \) desktop first , always get application error screen followed another application error screen various different messages following stack fault , drv address 0001 xxxx xxxx number \( drv vga driver provided manufacture \) general protection fault , ndw exe address segment load failure , ndw exe address , address always 0001 something address 0001 xxxx means \? absolutely idea mean tried commented tsr programs autoexec bat , help something emm386 setup telling win31 suppose know looks like application crossing memory boundary loaded running please reply idea suggestion i'm willing try anything steve chu bell labs holmdel , nj
lance hartmann austin ibm com \( lance hartmann \) subject summary information pc 's local bus specification reply lance hartmann austin ibm com ibmpa awdpa ibm com organization ibm , austin keywords local bus vesa pci lines 21 article 1993apr6 pt \( \) writes stuff deleted pci \( intel \) bus completely defined \( yet \) people think long term solution larger cheap \( complex chipset \) friend owns company builds clones shared fact pci chipset expensive 12 \? many money hungry clone makers , doubt , attempt price boards high 's new technology lance hartmann \( lance hartmann austin ibm com ibmpa awdpa ibm com \) yes , ' ' \( percent sign \) network address statements , comments , opinions , etc herein reflect author shall misconstrued ibm anyone else matter
guyd austin ibm com \( guy dawson \) subject 80486dx 50 vs 50 originator guyd pal500 austin ibm com organization ibm austin lines 38 article 1993apr06 kub nl , volkert kub nl \( volkert \) writes anonymous , saw posting choice 80486dx 50 50 wondering although dx 50 faster path 's external cache , n't choice dx2 50 one made work properly local bus \? mean , cache speed one thing , speed blocked video , get faster i'm willing speculate dx2 50 local bus 2 4 times fast dx 50 probably expensive \( cheap \) ! technically reason chip set cannot support 486dx50 25mhz local bus i'm waiting \( sp \? \) vl bus main cpu clock allow many slots due user buffers allow use ever faster cpus standard cards next spec regards , jv name j v address 4 4847 hw holland e mail volkert kub nl oooo oooo guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns co uk tel hoskyns uk 71 251 2128 guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa 512 838 3377
lonestar utsa edu \( david \) subject tangent computer \( eisa lb system \) nntp posting host lonestar utsa edu organization university texas san antonio distribution usa lines 9 anyone dealt tangent \? i'm looking 486 system eisa vesa slot video scsi use made aorta 've never heard brand anyone comment tangent controller \? thanks , david
jiml ftcollinsco ncr com \( jim l \) subject simm speed distribution world organization ncr microelectronics products division \( company \) lines 40 article 1993apr6 news unomaha edu , cse \( kok hon yin \) writes robert desonia \( robert desonia hal9k ann arbor mi us \) wrote b bk possible plug 70ns 60ns simms motherboard saying bk wants 80ns simms \? n't troubles heard machines problems slower recommended memory speeds , never faster run without trouble course want buy 60ns mixed 80ns \? 60ns expensive 80ns furthermore machine run slowest simms clock speed eventhough 60ns 0 thought machine run whatever bus jumpered cmos set \( usually wait states \) regardless speed ram installed motherboard sense speed ram installed , unless call failing sort auto sense sometimes use slower ram machine either set number wait states accomodate slow ram \( case , memory run slower rate \) reduce wait states take chance slower ram act like faster ram wo n't crash putting faster ram wo n't speed things unless tell machine faster ram mixing fast slow ram help keep bus slowed accomodate slow ram jiml mailer address buggy ! reply jiml ftcollinsco ncr com james lewczyk 1 303 223 5100 ncr mpd fort collins , co jim lewczyk ftcollinsco ncr com
nswc navy mil \( william scott \) subject tape drive problems reply nswc navy mil organization naval surface warfare center , dahlgren division lines 62 article 489 ux1 cso uiuc edu , husak ux1 cso uiuc edu \( stephen r husak \) writes please reply via e mail since job related colorado jumbo back system one places employment eaten two tapes winding tape spool easy fix tape drive fried \? simply need cleaning \? comments appreciated ! stephen husak trying , trying say , i'm trying tell anything n't know woke today depeche mode nothing music masses stephen r husak husak ux1 cso uiuc edu illinois tapes \? two tapes type batch \? reason ask bought generic tapes found tape markers fully punched closed little marker hole tapes set open tape cartridge put tape back reels \? yet , open removing two screws bottom tape cartridge snap plastic shell away metal base pulling tape assembly try touch , look couple little holes tape marker holes let tape drive know end tape holes spaced couple inches apart best guess drive finds first marker stops second marker \? anyhow , tape holes , check see mirror tape clean function mirror detect marker holes tape drive shines light mirror pickup area reflection would come hole goes , pickup detects light allowed pass knows stop mirror dirty \( unlikely since made case \) might problem detecting end tape tape drive tapes tapes look good , either pickup led sensor system failed dirty open drive door see sensor assembly left r w head assembly looks clean nothing way , drive may need serviced possible led burned sensor still warranty , might able send back cms repair scott relay nswc navy mil standard disclaimer opinions expressed necessarily reflect dod navy accept full responsibility
phil howtek mv com \( phil hunt \) subject rapid tech squeeze card \? organization howtek , inc reply phil howtek mv com \( phil hunt \) x mailer uaccess macintosh release 1 6v2 lines 22 hi , going box old ibm card came across one called rapid technology squeeze card dated 1990 crystal big chip 'c connectors outside , ribbon type 50 pin connector board 16 bit board ideas \? phil phil hunt wherever go , ! howtek , inc internet phil howtek mv com uucp decvax harvard ! mv ! howtek ! phil
mail sas upenn edu \( \) subject dx3 99 organization university pennsylvania lines 15 nntp posting host med upenn edu article iisakkil lk hp 22 hut fi , iisakkil lk hp 22 hut fi \( mika iisakkila \) wrote contract , ibm allowed sell 486 chips third parties , chips unlikely become available non ibm machines saw months pc pc world ad computers using ibm 's 486slc n't think ibm restricted selling chips , least anymore clock 486 , even without coprocessor would great , especially 16k board cache make 386 pin compatible , chip upgrade dreams made \) mail sas upenn edu
cup hp com \( larry byler \) subject problem maxtor 340mb ide drive article cup organization hewlett packard lines 31 nntp posting host cup hp com x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 10 first , thanks responded , via e mail tips n't pan , good hearing , following earlier post disk controller side 3 2 hard 2 floppy ide controller jumpers \( shown \) normal irq delayed irq primary secondary floppy address single dual speed floppy primary secondary ide address precomp 187 ns iochrdy driven ide drive controls iochrdy cards \( n't check brand \) 2 serial 1 parallel adapter logitech bus mouse adapter roland mpu 401 compatible midi interface configured default irq 2 , mem address 0330 opened box removed cards help , anything better try , changed normal irq delayed irq disk controller \( n't make difference \) iochrdy driven ide drive controls iochrdy \( also effect \) put everything back way installed cards unplugged floppy drive cable disk controller voila ! , pc booted power , although seemed take several seconds first access hard disk plug floppy cable back controller original \( non boot \) behavior returns k , additional information , anyone netland words wisdom 's going deal \? larry still \( un \) plugging away byler
walker cs umn edu \( robert paul walker \) subject dos board 16 ports nntp posting host cs umn edu organization university minnesota lines 19 i'm posting friend runs bbs i'm sure dos windows interested board 16 ports another post , someone , n't much info could someone give information boards know mentioned configuration models specifications prices manufacturers thanks , rob robert walker walker cs umn edu computer science dept university minnesota
rpao mts mivj ca us \( roger c pao \) subject 16mb isa limit keywords monitor , vga , question organization software lines 29 marka ssd csd harris com \( mark ashley \) writes latest pc magazine \( pentium \) , editorial advantages pc using vesa lb rather plain isa vesa lb supposedly users eventually want 16mb ram however since isa bus 24 bits , anything bus access 16mb even 32mb motherboard far agree arguments writer claims occur systems 16mb limit part n't understand ram right motherboard cpu problems talking ram anybody explain \? problem isa bus masters address first system memory bus masters use cpu system dma actual data transfer transfer data directly system ram roger c pao , , ! mts ! rpao , rpao mts mivj ca us
aovai qube ocunix ca \( aovai \) subject hard disk question distribution world organization qube bbs lines 18 hi , disassembled old xt get 2 disk drives hard drive 360k floppy drive questions use 2 drives drives e 386sx25 \? 386sx25 currently 80m hard drive , 1 2m 1 44m floppy drives , w h w need \? please send advice comments aovai qube ocunix ca thanks lot , av via dlg pro v0 995
ted isgtec com \( ted richards \) subject pc x distribution usa organization isg technologies inc mississauga ont canada lines 43 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 following note ted richards \( ted isgtec com \) wrote al devilbiss \( al col hp com \) wrote looks like everything works advertised disappointed speed i'm using intel 400 internal 14 4k modem pc telebit 14 4k unix end , currently limited 19 unix com link get quantitative comparison , file' file 20 uncompressed ascii text , took 75 seconds scroll x window modem link , 270 chars sec using identical hardware procomm fw cat file' takes 11 seconds , 1820 chars sec btw , use ncd pc xview pc work \( hp \) every day unix access pc lan like fine file' scrolls 2 seconds lan connection tried experiments cat 'd byte file \( 471 lines \) various scenarios pc xview dos full screen os 2 window \( \) 18 sec telix \( dos \) os 2 window \( \) 107 sec ! telix \( dos \) full screen os 2 window \( standard vga \) 11 sec telix \( dos \) windows 3 1 window \( 1024x768x256 \) 30 sec uw win seamless os 2 window \( 1024x768x256 \) gave 4 min ! uw win windows 3 1 \( 1024x768x256 \) faster , gave 2 min uw win seamless os 2 window using pg 30 sec , could little faster \( keep hitting space bar \) using ati wonder xl video card , way pc xview dos looks pretty good \( line line scrolling os 2 desktop looks pathetic , although full page redraws pretty good \) tried pc xview using normal \( 10x20 \) font , small font , difference times modem receive light pretty , looks like bottleneck 9600 baud modem , screen drawing ted richards ted isgtec com ! uunet ca ! isgtec ! ted isg technologies inc 6509 airport rd , mississauga ont canada 1s7
ebosco us oracle com \( eric bosco \) subject ram boards 486 \? \? nntp posting host monica us oracle com reply ebosco us oracle com organization oracle corp , redwood shores ca x disclaimer message written unauthenticated user oracle corporation opinions expressed user necessarily oracle lines 27 hello , 486sx25 isa machine bios currently 8 megabytes ram installed via eight 1 mg simms motherboard ie banks full , space simms thinking running os2 machine possibly linux x windows , know ram would helpful however simms , solution see sell 8 megs 180 , 4 simms 400 used apart fact ca n't afford price right , entire process selling ram buying used probably means machine might number days would rather avoid question , ram boards plug free slot work well 486 isa machine seen sold used 90 4 mg space another 's boards work , \? device driver needed , bios pickup extra ram simms mother board \? know isa slots 16 bits 486 simm memory 32 bits , probably wishful thinking however help truly appreciated eric ebosco us oracle com
informatik uni de \( bernhard \) subject help ! hard drive id messed ! organization university , germany x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 42 dave \( david c cat uucp \) wrote rpi edu \( gregory anthony \) writes howdy , day using norton 's optimize seagate \( \) h problem persisted backed essential data decided reformat hard drive attempted got 8th head gave error message saying could find sector tried everything think ca n't even access hard write information tried boot ms dos disks ms tries reformat hard drive gets 29 way say error formatting hard drive press f3 exit tried scan hard drive viruses access get message \( try dir saying error int 24 anyone help \? idea thanks advance help ! greg try bios level format via debug command g xxxx 5 xxxx hex address hd controller bios location work , last resort would take large magnet hard disk , done properly cause could cause damage done already disclaimer responsible actions directly applying large magnet hard disk done correctly magnet trick wipe everything hard disk completely low level bios format might succeed david china cat bbs c cat ! david sed csc com \( 301 \) 604 5976 1200 14 , 400 8n1 uunet ! mimsy ! anagld ! c cat ! david
larryhow austin ibm com \( \) subject laserjet iv upgrades opinions originator larryhow larryhow austin ibm com organization ibm austin lines 13 current products available upgrade resolution \? ones support postscript \? experiences , either good bad \? quality difference really noticable \? i'm planning producing camera ready copy homes higher resolution noticed \?
guyd austin ibm com \( guy dawson \) subject vesa local bus \? \? \? \? originator guyd pal500 austin ibm com organization ibm austin lines 48 article 1993apr15 cc umontreal ca , umontreal ca \( \) writes hi fellow netters , question gonna buy 486dx2 66 mhz vesa local bus speed benefit great \? would wise spend local bus system \( hd controller graphic card \) normal use \( mean wo n't use server ! ! \) \? also , read article someone \( sorry , ca n't remember name \) said even though local bus hard disk controller , performances wo n't much greater disk 's ! ! ! use fast bus peripherals ca n't cope \? \? \? something bear mind v vlb stands ! v video origional intention bus speed bus large memory memory transfers would faster useful transfering data main memory video memory since usually 3 vlb slots card makers making cards fit two vlb ethernet card \? move data card 130 odd mb wait tickle onto net 1mb however free local bus cards times need fast busses sometimes n't ! thank umontreal ca guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns co uk tel hoskyns uk 71 251 2128 guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa 512 838 3377
pastor vfl paramax com \( jon pastor \) subject another happy gateway owner nntp posting host organization much lines 30 article 1993apr9 infonode ingr com , infonode ingr com \( ken putt \) writes n't always \? course , 're much expensive quality competitors , like , \? bought system \( november \) , first , second , third tier vendor could touch price hardware software combination got gw2000 another good thing read midst gateway horror stories selling many systems fast gw2000 , 'd end four five pissed customers four five ecstatic ones lots satisfied ones excellent return policy ! n't minimize buy mail order , 's good thing know 'll get replacements parts , questions asked , day two , via fedex 're impressive systems \( work \) vast majority cases remember 's people tails curve motivated write ones love , ones hate n't hear folks middle often rough edges , doubt give good value per dollar , use almost top quality components
burge qdeck com \( bill burge \) subject dos 6 0 organization quarterdeck office systems , santa monica ca distribution na lines 22 article eastman uucp kodak com \( james \) writes enough experience netland dos 6 0 anyone could make comments whether 's worthwhile upgrade \? problems hardware compatibility bugs found \? one thing wonder disk included dos 6 0 possiblity disk double exe file gets corrupted disk would unreadable \? would one recover event \? file would problem dblspace bin , exe arf ! ! \( 0 0 \) ooo \( \) ooo bill burge burge qdeck com dog spot problem resolution prevention bbs \( 310 \) 314 3227 \( n 8 1 \) quarterdeck office systems fax \( 310 \) 314 3217 \( 310 \) 314 3214 tech support support qdeck com \( automated request info info qdeck com fax system , call compuserve go quarterdeck fax \)
bgrubb dante nmsu edu \( grubb \) subject ide vs scsi organization new mexico state university , las cruces , nm lines 60 distribution world nntp posting host dante nmsu edu wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca \( wayne smith \) writes n't answer original question os 2 multi user os \? mention made ether card either disk data point view , scsi advantage comes multi tasking \? data data , could anywhere drive scsi find faster \? get drive computer faster \? better cache system \? thought scsi good managing data bus multiple devices attached talking single drive , explain scsi inherently faster managing data hard drive making mistake confusing drive interface data throughput interface mac ibm info sheet available ftp sumex aim stanford edu \( 36 44 0 6 \) info mac report mac ibm txt expansion mac ibm scsi external device expansion interface common mac ibm allows use device hard drive , printer , scanner , nubus card expansion mac plus , monitors , cd rom apple developed specifications scsi controlers ibm exact controller specifications results added incompatibilities ibm machines main problem lot external devices internal terminated causes problems two scsi port scsi chain supposed terminated begining end set causes problems either mac ibm scsi 1 7 devices per scsi controller 8 bit asynchronous 1 5mb ave synchronous 5mb max transfer base 16 bit scsi 1 requires scsi 2 controler chip provide fast scsi 2 wide scsi 2 16 bit interfaces see scsi 2 scsi 2 10 devices per scsi controller scsi 2 mode scsi 2 fully scsi 1 complient tends implimented fast scsi 1 since needs different controller interface hardware tends software transfer speeds 4 6mb 10mb burst 8 bit , 8 12mb 20mb burst 16 bit , 15 20mb 40mb burst 32 bit wide fast scsi 2 scsi 1 mode limited 7 devices reduced 8 bit 16 bit fast throughput due difference scsi 1 wide scsi 2 ports ibm hd interfaces limited hard drives design lack development ide integrated device electronics currently common standard , mainly used medium sized drives one hard drive asynchronous transfer 5mb max lowest setting scsi 2 interface asynchronous scsi 1 mode averages put maximum ide asynchronous mode full scsi 2 mode blows poor ide window , street , garbage problem becomes drive keep put rates bottleneck cost scsi 2 comes interface drive use scsi 2 put cost scsi interface self people buy scsi expencive pc , turn makes mass producing scsi would reduce cost , scsi expencive effect rule scale items sold less item bare cost manufacture less item cost scsi 2 allows drive put limited drive ide limits put
mulvey blurt oswego edu \( allen mulvey , suny , oswego , ny \) subject memory slot problem organization suny college oswego , oswego , ny lines 26 article bigboote wpi edu , ralf wpi wpi edu \( ralph \) writes finally decided upgrade 486 33 eisa 's memory 8 meg 16 meg two months parts warranty ran \( \) motherboard two months late seems 's problem one two 1m sim slots bank b boot get pattern test failure address system top 6 meg sims good , tried rotating bank one configurations , however , pattern test deletions failed tests , pattern appeared pattern sim place leads believe one two connector address pins fault , lot luck , might ralph ralph \( ralf chpc org \) \( ralf wpi wpi edu \) hardware engineer , worcester polytechnic institute center high performance computing , marlborough many motherboards jumpers enable disable memory banks check \? allen mulvey mulvey blurt oswego edu
jchen wind bellcore com \( jason chen \) subject please help purchasing 486 nntp posting host wind bellcore com reply jchen ctt bellcore com organization bell communications research lines 47 last time microprocessor lab 1980 , using z 80 n't know lot buzz terms pc hardware need purchase 486 , help ask right questions motherboard need 486 33 8 mb ram , slot 8 mb would like get two vesa local bus one video , sure going must able run unix questions ask ensure getting quality stuff \? important features \? monitor want 14 non interlaced svga , sure brand get ca n't afford nec sony brands consider \? \? touch \? else ask \? video card would like run framemaker need fast video card western digital worth 20 cirrus logic \? need 1m v ram \? one company wanted 50 local bus video card normal \? hard drive , western digital , conner price one liable \? one better performace \? case power supply given desktop , one better \? adequate power supply \? cooling general problem non issue \? features ask \? miss anything \? sure lot semi pc reading group help greatly appreciated jason chen
bgrubb dante nmsu edu \( grubb \) subject vesa local bus \? \? \? \? organization new mexico state university , las cruces , nm lines 20 distribution world nntp posting host dante nmsu edu guyd austin ibm com \( guy dawson \) writes vlb ethernet card \? move data card 130 odd mb wait tickle onto net 1mb 250mb 64 bit vlb 350mb quickring apple 's implimentation vlb \( byte 10 92 132 \) quickring interesting allows card 350mb divided among many cards time nubus 90 mca card interfaces able anything kind speed even nubus 90 around burst mode 80mb mca also called micro channel ibm 's 16 32 bit bus allows use one cpu computer \( dct \) anything talk anything , fast two components involved handle never took incompatible isa eisa planned bus interface ibm powerpc 601 \( carl \) ida ca n't handle vlb speed never mind 's speed eisa along nubus mac ii speeds burst mode vlb quickring slowed pci competing interface still development
ch subject isa eisa distribution comp organization university st , switzerland lines 30 article envmsa eas asu edu , envmsa eas asu edu \( b b \) writes article casey grace wharton upenn edu , casey grace wharton upenn edu \( shawn casey \) writes hello , question anyone may familiar isa eisa sytem configurations 1 \) switch isa boards eisa board \( cards isa \) system seems work problem ever interupt problems isa board continue eisa board understanding eisa board able handle irq running windows problem running network via telnet \( tcp ip \) windows running system kicks us windows \( irq within windows assume \) also , memory address problems happen boards switched \( base memory \) far know , using eisa mother board , use also eisa cards else computer system slower 're using isa board isa cards bill 's nonsense ! ! use isa cards eisa system without problem speed isa system ! ! luke
dutiws twi tudelft nl \( r v \) subject original ibm pc specs organization delft university technology lines 15 article 1993apr9 3200 ucbeh san uc edu ucbeh san uc edu writes hard drive xt type controller added , recommend trying full height 5 1 4 hard drive , run trouble 63 5w supply spool big heavy platters one way get system going one floppy drive one hard disk 63 watt power supply first disconnect power floppy drive turn pc , notice hard drive real difficult time getting speed , manages booting finished , plug floppy drive , work \( ok know user friendly , maybe better buying 486 66 300 watt power supply something like \)
dutiws twi tudelft nl \( r v \) subject fd controller question organization delft university technology lines 22 article 1993apr11 nwnexus wa com halcyon com \( marlboro man \) writes looking way access floppy drive level , , lower bios given port assignments , controller chip spec sheet need info \? floppy 1 44m , would also like able write code works 360k disks well also , method access , possible actually read individual bytes track stream controller \? i'm afraid sector handling done purely hardware chance get basic access , anything point right direction would help lot file \( look archie \) called lots info various pc things , amongst also detailed description floppy controller commands , think hard drive controller commands possible read entire track including gaps , sector headers etc setting sector size something large \( like 8k \)
dutiws twi tudelft nl \( r v \) subject adding hard drive original ibm pc keywords hard drive , ibm pc organization delft university technology lines 22 article panix com schuster panix com \( michael schuster \) writes article saltillo cs utexas edu cs utexas edu \( keith \) writes original ibm pc \( xt \) never hard drive questions 1 need new bios add hard drive \? 2 anyone sell complete package \? please e mail suggestions need add hard drive sent mail need 10 82 bios support rom bios extensions , rom hard disk controller 20 mb hard card , available much 100 , trick proper bios date use norton si similar program find also need set correct switch settings xt controller , pain , since pc 's n't come proper docs hardware contained inside
swood vela acs oakland edu \( scott wood \) subject western digital hd info needed organization oakland university , rochester , michigan , u lines 34 nntp posting host vela acs oakland edu recently older dec 210 286 work , option adding additional western digital hard drive machine existing drive currently western digital well , working fine , documentation available configuring master slave relationship necessary c drive setup first drive currently formatted tandy dos v3 3 eventually going upgrade ms dos v 5 0 drives model number circa 5 07 1991 782 cyl 4 head drives note add exact configuration current bios , seems work setting 17 \( 977 cyl 5 head , 300 write pre , 977 landing zone \) three pairs jumper pins back presume setting master slave originally , drive machine none currently , suggested try far right \( looking back \) master middle jumper slave booted , seems puke accessing drive flicker three times second drive , gives error hopefully problem simple drive formatted , person ever actual format drive , would even know help great fully appreciated , number western digital might good ! swood hunting michigan \? n't despair closed season , , weasel , red squirrel , , , feral , english , ground squirrel anyway trout season opens last saturday month
catone compstat wharton upenn edu \( tony catone \) subject 80486dx 50 vs 50 organization university pennsylvania lines 17 nntp posting host compstat wharton upenn edu reply hamilton golem wcc govt nz 's message 13 apr 93 01 34 36 gmt article golem wcc govt nz hamilton golem wcc govt nz \( michael hamilton \) writes really need switch dx2 66 instead dx50 \? understand , dx50 's local bus devices \( mother board \? \) local bus slots according told , many systems go beyond vesa local bus standard order provide dx50 systems local bus slot capability definitly seen mother board 2 local bus slots claimed able support cpu , including dx2 66 dx50 someone throw informed light issue \? need check peripheral makers see boards work 50 mhz motherboards tony catone compstat wharton upenn edu
monu6 cc monash edu au \( christopher \) subject need intelligent serial \? \? organization monash university , melb , australia x newsreader tin 1 1 pl4 lines 31 bill writes , buy serial port modem used things , use modem next computer \( might pc \) upgrade modem without changing box hear isdn big europe , might able get one beautiful isdn modems less car someday \( 64k bidirectional \) bill , ge corp r center box 8 schenectady ny 12345 unfortunately united states standard isdn \( suppose whats c aka christopher systems consultant email yoyo cc monash edu au man fish 'll eat day , teach fish 'll eat ever
eng umd edu \( yu jen wu \) subject 's difference 30 pin 72 pin simms \? organization project glue , university maryland , college park lines 17 distribution world nntp posting host eng umd edu hi , anyone tell difference 30 pin 72 pin simms \? wish get detailed information origin two different types simms , preferably magazine review way , faq group covers simms information , please also direct help information would much appreciated sincerely , yu jen wu dept ee , univ maryland eng umd eu
jk tools de \( juergen \) subject sun cd rom pcs \? \? \? organization tools gmbh , bonn , germany lines 15 jk leo tools de 1993apr14 nb rockwell com 1993apr15 novell de nntp posting host leo tools de reply novell de 's message thu , 15 apr 1993 04 02 31 gmt article 1993apr15 novell de novell de \( peter \) writes great ! n't let effort talent un noticed put program net , upload anonymous ftp sites people \( least \) appreciate please put ftp novell de \( 193 97 1 1 \) pub incoming pc ok , small programme used switch drive 2048 bytes block mode use msdos adaptec available ftp novell de \( 193 97 1 1 \) pub pc adaptec zip juergen jk tools de ! uunet , mcsun ! unido ! tools ! jk
prism gatech edu \( mark \) subject sorry , another gateway posting distribution usa organization georgia institute technology lines 42 never thought 'd contribute gateway thread , either pro con , spleen could use little venting scenario 1 ordered dx2 50 w ultrastor 34f local bus hd controller 2 receive system 10 days ordering \( happy \) 3 discover ultrastor isa hd controller inside \( unhappy \) 4 call gateway , receive correct controller 5 days \( getting happier \) 5 new controller n't work \( unhappy \) 6 call gateway , get another controller 5 days \( cooling , end sight \) 7 controller n't work either , motherboard bad \( unhappy \) gateway 's solution order new motherboard \( 5 days \) site service install , take day work service people work 9 5 f say , way 've already blown 20 hours , 10 hold n't time take day work also , 30 day return period almost 've able use thin 10 minutes , whole thing going back extremely upset began post support rep told would pay shipping returned system , also two hard drive controllers sent fortunately , spoke customer service going ups come pick everything downside order another computer would really like try gateway , i'm turned prospect try get customer service tech support think products great part , i'm beginning wonder savings worth potential aggravation mail order companies difficult contact \? know gateway booming , good reason , n't know take oh well , feel better mark hear believe later georgia institute technology , atlanta georgia , 30332 internet markd cc gatech edu
jmarttila finabo abo fi \( fast eddie \) subject adaptec 1542a problem organization turku school economics x news reader vms news 1 24 lines 29 hello recently suffered various problems concerning adaptec 1542a controller problem 1 floppy disk drive n't work 's apparently least two jumpers controller affect floppy disk drive unfortunately located one \( lower front corner \) would like know , jumpers possibly located problem 2 hard disks refuse boot two scsi hd 's \( rodime , miniscribe \) get message operating system' , even though disks formatted controller damn sure operating system boot quantum might get far getting ms dos version information might course due memory drivers jumpers could affect hd causing errors \? thanks advance jouni jouni yo 11 b 25 , 20540 turku , finland 358 21 jmarttila abo fi jmarttila finabo jmarttila utu fi pgp key available via finger jmarttila abo fi
jerry msi com \( jerry \) subject tape backup question organization molecular simulations , inc x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 x posted asteroid msi com nntp posting host sol ctr columbia edu lines 18 hello folks ! archive \( internal qic 80 \) tape drive , pretty comparable colorado jumbo 250 since two floppy drives system , i'm using small card \( accelerated \) made archive attach tape drive third floppy device problem although dos based software works fine , norton central point backup programs windows fail unless switch machine non turbo speed \( i'm using 486dx 33 eisa \) since dos software works , ca n't hardware problem , \? anyone seen similar problems \? solutions \? thanks advance jerry j molecular simulations inc time fades pages burlington , usa book memories rhythm ! jerry msi com guns n' roses
spiro netcom com \( philip n spiro \) subject new cd rom , misc info organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 distribution na lines 15 terry clark \( tclark news weeg uiowa edu \) wrote upgrade nanao 550i 765 \( monitor handle 1280x1024 vertical refresh 72 76hz \) according nanao 550i better 60hz 1280x1024 btw , gateway told thing phil phil spiro spiro netcom com 415 964
sundaram egr msu edu \( divya sundaram \) subject recommendations local bus \( cached \) ide controller organization michigan state university , college engineering lines 16 distribution usa nntp posting host ee msu edu hi , would like hear net wisdom net opinions ide controllers would liek get ide controller card vlb dx2 66 motherboard good options \( preferably 200 \) must also work os 2 compatible stacker \( disk compression w \) please advise divya divya live long , die slow horrible death confucius wanted say
marka hcx1 ssd csd harris com \( mark ashley \) subject tape backup windows organization harris csd , ft lauderdale , fl lines 18 nntp posting host hcx1 ssd csd harris com i'm looking complete hw sw solution need isa vlb scsi controller \( e g ultrastor 34f \) plus tape drive \( 500mb less like archive \) plus windows program work intended system 32mb ram plain isa controllers longer also hear scsi world organized anybody tape backup setup like i'm looking \? please describe thanks e mail please marka gcx1 ssd csd harris com
goyal utdallas edu \( mohit k goyal \) subject refresh rates nec \? nntp posting host utdallas edu organization univ texas dallas lines 5 someone tell maximum horizontal vertical refresh rates nec \( 5fge \) thanks
vms macc wisc edu subject ftp problem gateway 486dx50 organization university wisconsin chemistry computing center distribution usa lines 18 gateway 486dx50 smc series plus use ncsa ftp send gateway hash turned , see 4 hash marks immediately computer r e l l turn internal cache 486 , speed better , n't match speed receive gateway n't matter send gateway get 4 hash marks extreme cache disabled anyone know \? fix \? gateway purchased june , 1992 please respond directly would n't believe slow news system thanks
smc edu \( peter \) subject soundblaster irq port settings organization santa monica college , santa monica , ca lines 23 article bogus sura net bogus sura net \( nicholas \) writes \( sb \) card supposed share irq 7 lpt1 \( parallel printer interface 1 \) , general scheme works well however , sometimes conflicts seemed depend software anything else origin games especially bitchy whole interrupt \) solution switch interrupt irq 5 , contemporary computers \( using irq 5 drives went xt put sb irq 5 xt , get new computer instead \) irq completely stable , use sb play mods linux \( free un x 386 better pc architecture machines \) problems , well games dos also use irq 5 one disadvantage games assume board using irq 7 way adjust setting trouble lucas films games peter administrative dean computing santa monica college santa monica , california 90405
prism gatech edu \( joe \) subject references needed memory management distribution usa organization georgia institute technology lines 15 report topic memory need know good references cover topic analytical chemistry class instrumental analysis , could guess , n't extremely thorough extensive covering topic also , chemical engineer know , much memory management anyone could help point good direction would thankful thanks advance joe hydra gatech edu school chemical engineering georgia institute technology atlanta , ga 30332 0100
phakt usc edu \( aka eugene hsu \) subject pc x organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 25 distribution usa nntp posting host phakt usc edu article isgtec isgtec com ted isgtec com \( ted richards \) writes al devilbiss \( al col hp com \) wrote brought ncd 's pc xview , windows version , use modem link unix system hp installation easy , need program , also ncd , called xremote run unix host total software cost one seat 200 anyone know ncd educational pricing software packages us strapped cash \? thanks eugene ted richards ted isgtec com ! uunet ca ! isgtec ! ted isg technologies inc 6509 airport rd , mississauga ont canada 1s7 eugene hsu \( aka \) university southern california scf usc edu electrical biomedical engineering ho , ho , freaking ho yeah yeah 's santa 's next victim \? 106 7 's new detective , goes undercover 12 15 92
husak ux1 cso uiuc edu \( stephen r husak \) subject another happy gateway owner organization university illinois urbana lines 20 pastor vfl paramax com \( jon pastor \) writes vast majority cases remember 's people tails curve motivated write ones love , ones hate n't hear folks middle often rough edges , doubt give good value per dollar , use almost top quality components one middle road gw2000 owners satisfied system share problems corrections phone conversations etc i'm satisfied got money stephen r husak trying , trying say , i'm trying tell anything n't know woke today depeche mode nothing music masses stephen r husak husak ux1 cso uiuc edu illinois
phill dnbf01 bram cdx mot com \( phil \) subject wanted chipset info nntp posting host ws13 bram cdx mot com reply phill dnbf01 bram cdx mot com \( phil \) organization motorola codex , mississauga , ontario lines 8 286 motherboard last byte memory manager \( downloaded trial \) reports chipset chipset , able activate ram behind segments a000 , used \( except video bios \) would like write driver activate memory anyone know get programming information chip \? phil
ong iastate edu \( sleeping dragon \) subject wanted opinions mag 17s nanao 560i monitor summary wanted opinions mag 17s nanao 560i monitor organization iowa state university , ames , ia distribution usa lines 15 hi , i'm looking buy 17 monitor soon , seems ca n't decide monitor buy mag 17s \( 25 dpi version using tube \) nanao 560i mind anyone know specification problems monitor \? actually , related opinions buying 17 monitor welcomed thanks advance , ong iastate edu
kaul vnet ibm com subject monitor xga news software ibm os 2 pm rn \( nr 2 \) v0 17h vishnepolsky r rogers lines 18 reply kaul vnet ibm com organization ibm j watson research news claremont edu jarthur claremont edu \( \) writes recommended monitor xga \? use old svga monitor , something needed \? mostly curious go blowing monster wad cash new system xga xga 2 \? original xga need something 1024x768 45 90hz interlaced \( tell 8514 compatible get idea \) xga 2 , get like prefer multi like ibm , necs even fixed frequency monitor like home viewsonic 6 like 's easy run modes like colors noninterlaced , higher modes like dick kaul opinions , official ibm positions , etc ibm xga development 'd make wear suit speak ibm boca raton , fl maestro kaul vnet ibm com
korenek com \( gary korenek \) subject 80486dx 50 vs 50 organization network management technology inc lines 26 article golem wcc govt nz hamilton golem wcc govt nz \( michael hamilton \) writes definitly seen mother board 2 local bus slots claimed able support cpu , including dx2 66 dx50 someone throw informed light issue \? michael hamilton motherboards support vl bus 50 dx cpu option \( bios think \) additional wait \( \) added regard cpu vl bus transactions slows cpu rate gives vl bus device \( \) time 'do thing' particular wait \( \) applied cpu vl bus device \( \) want enable wait \( \) using 50 dx vl bus devices reading motherboard manual , mileage may vary strictly speaking , vl 50mhz compatable , least one mechanism physically allow work gary korenek \( korenek com \) network management technology incorporated \( formerly international controls corp \) sugar land , texas \( 713 \) 274 5357
mlevis lonestar utsa edu \( mike \) subject 3rd cfv vote ack comp os os2 programmer porting , setup , multimedia , bugs organization university texas san antonio lines 476 nntp posting host rodan uu net attention voters problem mailbox first day voting please check vote \( ack \) end cfv name address , please send vote \( actually , check even voted first day \) introduction third \( final \) call votes \( cfv \) creation four os 2 newsgroups renaming one \( \) create comp os os2 programmer porting \( unmoderated \) \( b \) renaming comp os os2 programmer comp os os2 programmer misc \( unmoderated \) \( c \) comp os os2 setup \( unmoderated \) \( \) comp os os2 multimedia \( unmoderated \) \( e \) comp os os2 bugs \( unmoderated \) second attempt creating comp os os2 programmer porting comp os os2 setup , renaming comp os os2 programmer comp os os2 programmer misc first attempt failed summer 1992 \( voting deadline august 31 , 1992 \) voting rules state another attempt creating newsgroups started six month waiting period \( case , march 1 , 1993 \) first attempt creating comp os os2 multimedia comp os os2 bugs document contains background showing need proposals proposed proposals voting instructions voting ballot example ballots voting rules voting schedule mass acknowledgement background creation two , free , 32 bit compilers os 2 2 x \( gcc 2 emx gcc read comp os os2 programmer details \) spurred continuing deluge software ported unix platforms , emacs , less , awk , grep , sed , , , flex , , much borland released c c compiler os 2 2 x , allowing easier porting dos windows software much pc hardware drivers written dos , later , windows people discovering os 2 2 x , number people asking questions os 2 's compatibility hardware increases , questions availability drivers hardware , installation procedures , etc multimedia becoming popular os 2 2 0 supports windows multimedia extensions using win os 2 3 0 furthermore , ibm including direct multimedia support os 2 starting version 2 1 \( addition using win os 2 3 1 \) non trivial software bugs os 2 exempt , especially since ibm constantly adding new features os 2 far , ibm issued system patches corrective service disks \( e g service pak \) free \( free bbss ftp sites , free plus small media charge diskettes read comp os os2 misc details \) proposed \( \) create comp os os2 programmer porting \( unmoderated \) provide forum developers ported software coordinate efforts , avoid duplication effort , spur additional development group also cover topics porting platforms \( dos , windows , unix , etc \) , toolkits aid program portability \( including porting tools mirrors \) , forth \( b \) rename comp os os2 programmer misc \( unmoderated \) keep structure os 2 newsgroup orthogonal , comp os os2 programmer renamed comp os os2 programmer misc comp os os2 programmer misc still newsgroup os 2 programmers discuss programming issues technical aspects os 2 unmoderated setting \( c \) create comp os os2 setup \( unmoderated \) devoted os 2 system setup topics , including availability device drivers , compatibility information , installation procedures , system requirements , overall performance optimization \( \) create comp os os2 multimedia \( unmoderated \) provide forum discussion multi media issues \( e \) create comp os os2 bugs \( unmoderated \) provide forum os 2 system bug reports , bug diagnosis work , availability system patches corrective service disks , forth note discussion bugs applications belong newsgroups , discussion bugs os 2 belong comp os os2 beta vote cast vote , fill ballot e mail many allow e mail sent replying post sure send ballot , edit rest post 1 \) type vote proposal favor charter proposed , put yes name oppose charter proposed , put name abstain , leave blank name 2 \) type last name \( e family name \) , comma , first name \( e personal name \) 3 \) cut ballot , please delete lines ballot 4 \) e mail ballot mlevis lonestar utsa edu 11 59 59 pm \( central time \) , april 24 , 1993 ballot cut cut cut \( \) comp os os2 programmer porting \( b \) comp os os2 programmer misc \( c \) comp os os2 setup \( \) comp os os2 multimedia \( e \) comp os os2 bugs \( f \) voter 's last , first name e mail ballot mlevis lonestar utsa edu april 24 cut cut cut example ballot 1 \( \) comp os os2 programmer porting yes \( b \) comp os os2 programmer misc yes \( c \) comp os os2 setup \( \) comp os os2 multimedia \( e \) comp os os2 bugs \( f \) voter 's last , first name smith , john example , john smith favors comp os os2 programmer porting created , comp os os2 programmer renamed comp os os2 programmer misc also opposes creation comp os os2 setup comp os os2 bugs view creation comp os os2 multimedia example ballot 2 \( \) comp os os2 programmer porting yes \( b \) comp os os2 programmer misc yes \( c \) comp os os2 setup yes \( \) comp os os2 multimedia yes \( e \) comp os os2 bugs yes \( f \) voter 's last , first name doe , jane example , jane doe favors creation rename proposals voting rules one vote per person vote , recent vote counted votes must mailed person voting proxy voting , forwarding , posting votes newsgroup , etc counted ask votes going status revealed poll closes acknowledge votes mass acknowledgement \( ack \) post ack twice \( see schedule \) need help using editor , using e mail , voting works general , etc ask expert site also see create new article posted news answers regular basis need clarifications voting procedures cfv , send e mail mlevis ringer cs utsa edu voting period \( see schedule \) , proposal passes following formulas true 1 \) number yes votes exceeds number votes least 100 \( e yes 100 , yes 100 \) 2 \) number yes votes exceeds least twice number votes \( e yes 2 , yes \) words , proposal passes yes max \( 100 , \) max \( \) returns highest number given schedule voting period started march 29 first cfv posted david lawrence \( news announce newgroups moderator \) third cfv repeat first cfv , also mass acknowledgement \( ack \) names e mail addresses already voted send vote voted yet , vote ! voting period end 11 59 59 pm \( central time \) , april 24 , 1993 votes received time count voting results tally posted shortly date mass acknowledgement list people already sent ballots 12 01 \( central time \) april 15 , 1993 cs tamu edu , sanjay crux3 cit cornell edu , justin alpha ces cwru edu , peter bitnet fr , andre rpi edu , tom tom longs lance colostate edu , ethz ch bartlett , warren bart paradyne com bates , john edu , j jeff neon rain com beal , kenneth amber ssd csd harris com , uni sb de bell , douglas dab6 scl cwru edu , robert concert net ! ! ! , bryan stanford edu blackman , ed venus tamu edu bodnar , john jbodnar ccwf cc utexas edu boisvert , wesley isis org , kevin eng usf edu , stefan tammy harvard edu , si hhs nl , david dd ee ac za , nathaniel woody vnet ibm com bowers , neil eece unm edu braun , david roland roll edu , geoffrey geoffb coos dartmouth edu , dieter db ix de brown , bill brown ir ucf edu , michael enet dec com carlson , bill poplar cs virginia edu champion , evan carbon isis org , john husc harvard edu chen , ted cs ubc ca chua , ez po berkeley edu , viewlogic com clement , bruce actrix gen nz clemente , marc f ucdavis edu cline , ernest cline usceast cs scarolina edu , simon monu6 cc monash edu au compton , curtis compton plains nodak edu costello , robert ultb isc rit edu coulman , randy coulman usask ca cox , anthony waikato ac nz cox , robert ee mcgill ca , tom srg af mil daigle , joe daigle apollo hp com , john mitre org dippold , ron rdippold qualcomm com donaldson , ian icd ecr mu oz au , stephen undergrad math uwaterloo ca duffy , patrick duffy theory chem ubc ca , ee umr edu , martin ifi unizh ch , marten marten toppoint de feustel , edward ida org , luigi luigi fischer , stefan fischer tammy harvard edu , rik rik sci kun nl francis , tim francis vnet ibm com francois menard ca franks , derek franks hercules cs uregina ca , wolfgang de friedrich , fzi de , ou dk g , stefan stefan med informatik uni de , edward cunyvm cuny edu , robert sc ti com , herm owlnet rice edu , jeff prism gatech edu , mark bach udel edu , david r cheshire oxy edu , john mit edu goyal , mohit goyal utdallas edu green , anthony green uucp , mike wam umd edu guo , cs uiuc edu hacker jonathan hacker cco caltech edu , michael athena mit edu , bj vnet ibm com hartman , shane shane com hartzman , les hartzman kilroy jpl nasa gov , george rpi edu hed , wpi wpi edu , fwi uva nl , de , esa nl , gerald rn 1035 rose com henry , andrew h henry gdr bath ac uk herbison , b j herbison ucx lkg dec com , kenneth ms uky edu , andrew mist cs orst edu , long orion oac uci edu hodge , bob hodge iccgcc cs hh ab com hodges , matthew iastate edu , bruce theory chem ubc ca , ian com au hopkins , john john uga edu , jeroen kub nl howard , robert robert howard gatech edu huang , ping athena mit edu jackson , dave jackson axion bt co uk jensen , colin netcom com , steven spot colorado edu , de , bruce lf hp com , bob ee ubc ca , mark zooid guild org , csd4 csd uwm edu , stephen andrew cmu edu lai , william lai seas gwu edu landy , brian landy cco caltech edu lau , frankie lau tammy harvard edu lau , stephen lau ai sri com , cs uah edu le , irisa fr , utkux1 utk edu lee , james ucdavis edu , jari utu fi , thomas tom tu ac , mike mikel com , kevin bruce cs monash edu au leung , rick cs ubc ca lim , com lin , steven cisco com lindholm , george lindholm ucs ubc ca liukkonen , juha jliukkon cc helsinki fi logan , stan logan com lu , kevin yoyo cc monash edu au martin , johannes zdv uni mainz de , daniel brown edu , larry larry titan tsd arlut utexas edu maxwell , scott scott maxwell channel1 com mayer , h physik uni kl de maynard , jay nyx cs du edu mccarthy , christopher mccarthy teradyne com , matthew matthew des edu , john access digex com mcguire , ed emcguire intellection com , andrew andrew folly welly gen nz meyer , jeff tc fluke com miller , richard rick crick ssctr bcm tmc edu , olaf h p felix rz fh ulm de , marc zooid guild org morrison , john paul ee ubc ca , david nyx cs du edu , math uwaterloo ca mullins , mullins magnum convex com , cliff vnet ibm com , due unit , v ic ac uk norton , charles ftp com , bruce apl jhu edu o'rourke , sean lonestar utsa edu oldham , c r socrates ed asu edu olson , eric gi alaska edu , ronald cs vu nl owens , bill owens cc buffalo edu parks , dwayne engr uark edu parry , tom parry yoyo cc monash edu au , bob vnet ibm com , mik uky edu petro , herbert mosaic uncc edu , pekka ppi oulu fi , david hydrogen oscs montana edu powell , stephen kralizec zeta org au prescod , paul papresco undergrad math uwaterloo ca , jerome uunet uu net ! ! jerome quinn , michael quinn phoenix princeton edu rao , rao cactus org , jim enet dec com reynolds , robert cs utexas edu robertson , james robertson byu edu , greg midway uchicago edu , johan ifi uio , markus imperial ac uk ryan , sean fsspr acad3 alaska edu salomon , larry panix com , nathan cs rpi edu , cs rug nl seymour , jim agora rain com , via mind org shaw , jeremy jeremy plx com , tu dbp de , timothy midway uchicago edu , unit smith , donald djs6015 ultb isc rit edu smith , eliot psych purdue edu , tim mips ccc nottingham ac uk sorensen , tom prism gatech edu , n nuscc nus sg steele , alan steele phy nrc ca , dirk dirk siemens de , ian ian vnet ibm com , stephen sedona intel com , carl nyx cs du edu sum , eva mik uky edu sum , mik uky edu , jeff netcom com swallow , doug doug oau org sward , david sward cmu edu thomas , stephen affinity mn org thompson , michael tommy msc cornell edu , bernard umich edu , att att com , jim jim biology watstar uwaterloo ca , student tc umn edu van der lek , p research ptt nl van , ronald copper denver colorado edu van , marc e e marc van de , owlnet rice edu , eric si hhs nl , kevin kevin com , ole daimi aau dk , david theory lcs mit edu wallace , jack grey vnet ibm com , rainer rainer han de watson , brett watson s1 elec uq oz au weber , christoph weber rhrk uni kl de weeks , larry dev ecn purdue edu werner , john werner soe berkeley edu west , mike west esd dl nec com weyrich , orville uunet uu net ! weyrich ! orville white , andrew csugrad cs vt edu , brian umd edu , carsten carsten train fido de , allen allen carb il us woodbury , gregory ggw wolves durham nc us , stephen stephen actrix gen nz wright , gregory gregory bcstec ca boeing com , richard transfer stratus com ! ! young , david dyoung netcom com , christian kris binkley cs mcgill ca , jeremy andy bgsu edu , nan nan matt ksu ksu edu \( os mike unofficial os 2 2 \) \( os 2 \) mlevis lonestar utsa edu votes \( os 2 \) mlevis ringer cs utsa edu clarifications
bagels east sun com \( alex nyc se \) subject ncr 1204 external floppy drive organization sun microsystems , inc lines 12 distribution world reply bagels east sun com nntp posting host lox east sun com keywords ncr 1204 external floppy disk drive hi , inherited ncr 1204 external floppy thing every port known man back question anyone know connect thing pc hardware needed \? software \? tia , alex p please respond directly alias
jamie dev cdx mot com \( peter \) subject help fixed frequency \( \? \) vga monitor nntp posting host jamie dev cdx mot com organization motorola codex , canton , massachusetts lines 14 recently bought vga monitor 99 1024x768 non interlaced , seems like good deal however , fixed scan rate monitor , handles 52 khz horizontal , think trident card works graphics modes 5e 62 much use , since application set mode something else , especially wants text , suppose anyway way use general purpose vga display 1 meg trident 8900c card \? , sort different vga card \? peter
bc idx com subject request info mystery pc card organization idx corporation , burlington , vt lines 11 box old pc \( \) parts , found half size board looks like comm port board made forte data systems copyright date 1986 board provides male 24 pin connector 3 jumpers 3 pins , two labelled b c plugged pc ran advanced diagnostics several times , changing jumper positions time , system recognise comm port anyone clue board might configure \? could use another comm port 's free bryan
wil shell portal com \( ville v walveranta \) subject joystick suggestions \? nntp posting host jobe organization portal communications company x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 12 i'm planning buying joystick \( first time since sold amiga five years ago \) pc idea kind stick buy many people recommended variety models good best \? willy ville v walveranta tel fax \( 510 \) 420 0729 96 linda ave , apt 5 finland 990 1 510 420 0729 oakland , ca \( faxes automatically recognized \) usa email wil shell portal com
umontreal ca \( \) subject info wanted tseng labs et4000 vlb organization universite de montreal lines 9 hi fellow netters , anybody info tseng labs et4000 vlb card price , speed , compatibility existing comming softwares , performance compared others cards \( s3 based card \? \) thank
wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca \( wayne smith \) subject ide vs scsi organization john p robarts research institute , london , ontario nntp posting host valve heart rri uwo ca lines 54 article dns1 nmsu edu bgrubb dante nmsu edu \( grubb \) writes point view , scsi advantage comes multi tasking \? data data , could anywhere drive scsi find faster \? get drive computer faster \? better cache system \? thought scsi good managing data bus multiple devices attached talking single drive , explain scsi inherently faster managing data hard drive ide integrated device electronics currently common standard , mainly used medium sized drives one hard drive asynchronous transfer 5mb max n't start spec sheet isa bus first \? quote scsi specs till 're blue face , exceed isa bus capability , 's point \? says ide limited 5 megs sec \? vlb ide \? anyone know perform \? lowest setting scsi 2 interface asynchronous scsi 1 mode averages put maximum ide asynchronous mode full scsi 2 mode blows poor ide window , street , garbage implimented system \? problem becomes drive keep put rates bottleneck cost scsi 2 comes interface drive use scsi 2 put given original question \( scsi used single hard drive controller \) , necessary get scsi drive least 5 , maybe 10 megs sec scsi choice make sence \? 200 400 meg 5 megs sec scsi drive cost \? cost scsi interface self people buy scsi expencive pc , turn makes mass producing scsi would reduce cost , scsi expencive effect rule scale items sold less item bare cost manufacture less item cost original cga cart back '84 300 think original ega card \( pga \? \) 800 scsi stood relatively alone coming price , mainly 're talking pc 's sun 's sparc sgi \( name favorite unix workstation \) , millions pc buying decisions years , scsi plenty time come price wo n't argue scsi standard makes good , well implimented data highway , still want know intrinsically better \( ide , isa bus \) comes multi tasking os 's managing data single scsi hard drive
nyx cs du edu \( elliott wong \) subject help ! ka9q ethernet organization university denver , dept math comp sci follow ups poster lines 19 dear , trying get standard connection going ka9q \( \) gvc nic 2000 ethernet card know router modem working able ping , finger , even however , time , crashes randomly help would greatly appreciated suspect hardware conflict pc running 386sx 33 , 2 mb ram ethernet card configured irq 5 , ports thanks advance know 's much go , n't even know questions ask , sorry please send mail elliott
kevin kosman uucp \( kevin o'gorman \) subject date stuck organization vital software services , oxnard , ca lines 15 anybody seen date get stuck \? i'm running ms dos 5 0 menu system alive time machine left running time suddenly , date longer rolls time \( reasonably \) accurate allways , change date hand every morning involves exiting menu system get dos anyone slightest idea \? even clue whether hardware \( battery \? cmos \? \) dos broken \? kevin o'gorman \( kevin kosman uucp , kevin kosman uucp nrc com \) voice 805 984 vital computer systems , , oxnard , ca non disclaimer boss , stands behind everything say
athena mit edu \( donald yee \) subject s3 86c805 w 2mb colors orchid pipe dream \? organization massachusetts institute technology lines 36 distribution world nntp posting host mit edu hi orchid fahrenheit vlb 2mb dram s3 86c805 based card problem installing second meg dram video , thanks orchid , got fix tech support \( jumper settings given ordinary manual assume would come memory ordered , guess glad n't say buy memory us something like \) one thing puzzled color mode thing , either full screen enlarged desktop mode ati ultra plus handle , given 2mb memory 2mb buys fahrenheit one mode geez known , would n't bothered asked , got point well taken , orchid 's software developers busy projects , get point , finally , s3 86c805 drivers handle high res hicolor modes \? 'd love get another card , perhaps wait next generation cards comes , since card came bundled system 's easy exchange things unless 're broken want modes , steer away s3 86c805 cards \( ie vlb va vlb \) , least developers less busy magazines believed , 've seen one s3 86c805 product thus far handle color \( genoa \? \) , although might please , generic semi generic drivers , let know get ok , gotten ati vga wonder xl thanks athena mit edu
koberg spot colorado edu \( allen koberg \) subject bus clk speed \? nntp posting host spot colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 24 article 73 uupcb hal9k ann arbor mi us robert desonia hal9k ann arbor mi us \( robert desonia \) writes one bios setup says bus clk clock , beyond isa specs , may ok cards run fast would set 3 \( fact \) set back anything acts weird \( e g get unexplainable floppy drive errors , modem locks , video problems , etc \) overdrive bus , first thing check get error system pretty safe overdrive bus , long isa cards still work flawlessly suggest backing hd playing though 486dx 50 \( really 50 , dx2 \) , bus set clk 3 16 67 mhz , problems soundblaster pro , zoom 14 4 , rll controller , etc work fine set 2 \( 25 mhz \) , simply n't get past post routines doubt could actually damage much playing allen
superior \( mike sprague \) subject soundblaster irq port settings organization xerox lines 20 solution switch interrupt irq 5 , contemporary computers \( using irq 5 drives went xt \) completly true class later machines , irq5 reserved lpt2 since 's rare second parallel port pc , 's usually good safe choice need interrupt hand , ran problem work gateway computer \( 4dx 33v \) modem com1 , mouse com2 , serial port set com3 \( normally uses interrupt com1 \) real fight board trying use irq5 , problem gateway set com3 used irq5 soon disabled com3 , problems went away several days trying figure interrupt n't work mike \( sprague xerox com \)
rmbult01 starbase spd louisville edu \( robert bultman \) subject ast hot shot 286 summary ast hot shot 286 nntp posting host starbase spd louisville edu organization university louisville keywords ast hot shot 286 lines 23 recently acquired ast hot shot 286 accellerator board 8088 sans documentation anyone know dip switches back card \? come software \? help information card would greatly appreciated thanks , rob robert bultman speed scientific school university louisville internet rmbult01 starbase spd louisville edu robert bultman speed scientific school university louisville internet rmbult01 starbase spd louisville edu
ucsb edu \( gene \) subject diamond speedstar hicolor card organization university california , santa barbara lines 15 486dx33 isa system 4 meg using diamond speedstar hicolor video card 1 meg vram standard ctx 14 svga monitor running windows , overlapping windows \( say application overlapping program manager window \) , close active application , window erasure slow part window overlapping erased first , slowly also happens application hicolor card advertised faster standard video card , accelerator chip running slow speed simply expected without accelerator chip , something else system unaware \? thanks \( mail directly wish , cs ucsb edu \)
shane wang andrew cmu edu subject conner 120mb problem organization freshman , electrical computer engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 14 nntp posting host po5 andrew cmu edu hi , recently , run norton disk surface test , realize slow harddisk accessing begining test , harddisk checked speed usually surface test half way harddisk , tremendous slow occured expected time operation jump 3 6 minutes try use harddisk tools check physical damage harddisk report always turn none surface test slow certain section disk turn back original speed gets section wondering whether harddisk problem problems anyway help comment shane wang
dirac phys washington edu subject need phone number western digital \( esdi problem \) organization university washington lines 16 distribution world nntp posting host dirac phys washington edu keywords western digital , esdi wa2 esdi controller rom bios v 1 1 working fine recently upgraded motherboard 386 40mhz , drive goes crazy making lots seeking sound even drive accessed course , hard disk controller errors symptoms disappear switch non turbo mode \( 8 mhz \) suspect timing dependent rom bios routines \( 's newer version 2 x \) could anybody help \? way , new mother board ami bios , 128k cache , 8 mhz bus , works fine old mfm drives \( dig \) \( also , appreciate much somebody send phone numbers \( tech support bbs \) western digital many thanks advance jay physics , uw , seattle , wa 98195 \( 206 \) 543 phys washington edu
mohammad al ansari ucs indiana edu subject cache micronics eisa vlb motherboard \? organization indiana university computer science , bloomington lines 27 might silly question ask anyway process purchasing eisa vl bus 486 dx2 66 computer found two places sell machines want price first ares use cache motherboard \( 's brand motherboard \) opti chip set , micron \( formerly edge technology \) use micronics eisa vlb motherboard said might silly question since believe micronics well known motherboard manufacturer never heard cache ! however leaning towards ares machine impression known building good , solid machines good tech support \( 24 hr , 7 days wk \) , better warrantee \( 2 years \) micron , hand , seems recently aquired edge technologies i'm sure much trust company would really appreciate input micron machine clear choice \? anyone know anything positive negative either company \? anyone ever heard cache motherboards \? go micron micronics motherboard \? etc thanks much advance information mohammad al ansari
lioness oak circa ufl edu subject int15h joysticks slow organization center instructional research computing activities lines 14 reply lioness ufcc ufl edu nntp posting host oak circa ufl edu i'm using int15h read joystick , hideously slow something like 90 cpu time spent reading joystick , program nothing printf \( \) \( \) problem lot programs trap int15h \( like smartdrv \) slow hell interface read joystick port reasonably safe fashion via polling \? n't platform specific \? thanks ,
netcom com \( brent c williams \) subject colorado jumbo 250 gateway 2000 \? organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 59 pd world std com \( peter f davis \) writes 've installed new colorado jumbo 250 tape backup unit gateway , couple complaints n't know common serious problems may would appreciate feedback others used system \( btw , 4dx2 66v tower system \) similar configuration colorado 250mb 66 dx 2 tower problems firstly , gateway shipped 120 mb tapes , even though drive 250 mb unit called complain , said 's carry , compression , fit 250 mb one tape maybe , pay extra large capacity tape drive \? got way silly , believing 250 logo front meant actual carrying capacity people sort thing living call marketing lawyers prosecute call fraud perhaps bunch duped buyers march corporate headquarters 230 mb data c drive choose space optimizing compression scheme started full backup software estimated would take 22 minutes took 4 1 2 hours sound right \? bit long system takes 45 minutes thing usually 4 5 hours , particularly tape grinding away whole time means block size write small way change block size write buffer size 's bigger \? backup , dozen files came access denied errors c windows system \( comm drv , keyboard drv , shell dll , etc \) , also c windows progman exe couple files c tape directory anyone else happen \? files opened dos files tape directory likely executable file configuration file tape system would recommend running backup dos make complete backup tape directory thanks feedback system 'd also appreciate hearing good sources blank tape cartridges , preferably 250 mb size 250mb cartridges wo n't good since drive wo n't write 250mb physical data tape thanks pd brent williams \( netcom com \) san jose , california
tmc spartan ac brocku ca \( tim ciceran \) subject help ! lap \? \? \? organization brock university , st catharines ontario x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 29 spectre \( spectre nmt edu \) wrote could one tell lap err 35 386 chip currently executing virtual 8086 mode control another program must turn program order use 386 dos extender run protected mode means shows compuadd express 486 33 whenever program maple run tried dr dos 6 0 , msdos 5 0 , 4dos 4 01 nothing , nada , memory nothing appears virus check anybody \? spectre jupiter nmt edu spectre nmt edu world \? everything \? illusions , richard ! every bit illusions ! understand \? donald used get problem autocad using noems switch emm386 exe dos 5 0 allocate ram emm386 problem go away tmc
hertz njit edu \( ken nakata cis \) subject help simms keywords simm questions answers organization new jersey institute technology , newark , n j lines 53 nntp posting host hertz njit edu article austin ibm com guyd austin ibm com \( guy dawson \) writes article lhdsy1 lahabra chevron com , lhdsy1 lahabra chevron com \( james c \) writes article 1993apr12 unl pt diana unl pt \( fernando \( mei 1 \) \) writes spectre \( spectre nmt edu \) wrote look magazine ad says deleted exactly numbers mean \? \( e mb , ns \) numbers 60 , 70 80 refers nanoseconds could someone explain exactly numbers means \? \( time spent processor 's request answer retrieved \( case reading \) \? \) means time required memory refresh , e 60 needs 60ns ready read nope ! 's time taken read data memory 's read time memory still refreshed whole phase called cycle , cycle time twice access time i'm sorry i'm misunderstanding post , dram refreshed access cycle cycle time twice access time refresh phase access time usually means delay time falling edge raw address strobe \( ras \) data bus driven dram access cycle timing chart roughly shown following \( signals intentionally omitted \) addr ra ca ra ca ra raw address , ca column address ras high , low , floating cas driven either h l data valid valid cycle time access time \( ras access time \) yes , cycle time twice access time refresh phase refresh done either trailing phase normal access cycle individual cycle stuff deleted ken nakata apologize incorrect , rude , impolite expressions mail post intended please consider english second language n't full understanding certain words phrase thank ken nakata , cis student , njit
phil howtek mv com \( phil hunt \) subject com ports modem mouse conflict really \? organization howtek , inc reply phil howtek mv com \( phil hunt \) x mailer uaccess macintosh release 1 6v2 lines 43 article 1993apr11 493 sub org \( comp sys ibm pc hardware , alt msdos programmer , comp sys ibm pc misc , uw pc general , uw pc ibm , misc forsale computers , comp dcom modems , \) , sub org \( oliver \) writes hi , yuri windy berkeley edu \( yuri \) writes 1s 1p 1g card 386 40 pc plug wang modem com4 , works change com1 n't program gives diagnostics like possible com irq conflict com1 \( mouse driver memory \) since io card one serial port default com1 \? ms dos , ca n't share irq 's 'll set either modem mouse com2 using different adresses irq 's set two onto irq like com1 com3 \( 2 4 \) one always win , e mouse com1 start using modem com3 , modem work mouse stop , reboot problem , setting modem com2 \? \( n't write anything peripherals \) hope , helped bit \( \) e , hi , i'm kind new pc stuff machine 4 serial ports com 1 2 4 share irqs mean ca n't plug mouse com1 modem com3 expect work \? answer , change irq 's com ports different \? , really matter irq set ports \? phil phil hunt wherever go , ! howtek , inc internet phil howtek mv com uucp decvax harvard ! mv ! howtek ! phil
mohammad al ansari ucs indiana edu subject 17 monitors organization indiana university computer science , bloomington lines 30 article 1993apr10 ust hk cs ust hk \( forrest normandy \) writes want buy 17 monitor , comment t560i , nec 5fg , sii 17 \? \? \? thanks lot forrest normandy hong kong university internet cs stu ust hk science technology e mail cs ust hk department computer science phone \( 852 \) 358 rm 608 paging c rm 608 , ug hall 4 , , hong kong windows sources magazine reviewed number 17 monitors recently said nanao t560i best monitor get money also said mitsubishi diamond pro 17 next best choice superb picture quality monitor around 1070 anyone actually seen \? also thinking buying 17 monitor going consider mitsubishi remember correctly , think viewing area 16 measured thanks mohammad al ansari cs indiana edu
bgrubb dante nmsu edu \( grubb \) subject ide vs scsi organization new mexico state university , las cruces , nm lines 44 distribution world nntp posting host dante nmsu edu wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca \( wayne smith \) writes 200 400 meg 5 megs sec scsi drive cost \? since quadra mac able deal 5mb hard drives start idea mac following external 20mb 299 15 mb 379 7 3 mb 80mb 449 5 63 mb 120mb 569 639 4 75 5 33 mb 210mb 979 1029 4 67 4 90 mb 1499 1549 4 68 4 84 mb 1999 2119 \( 3 92 4 31 mb etc scsi 1 scsi 2 mac goes price mb hard drive size goes assume pc world wo n't argue scsi standard makes good , well implimented data highway , still want know intrinsically better \( ide , isa bus \) comes multi tasking os 's managing data single scsi hard drive well scsi also floppy drive interface mac since scsi non card , non modem , keyboard device id 7 used floppy drive called cpu allows cross drive interfacing fast os , program , cpu , scsi , drive handle shows best line ibm uses scsi floppy drive happen well also scsi drives printers , scanners , cards showed plus nubus , cd rom , etc ide seems mainly hard drives specs nobody given ca n't find besides call ide interface make scsi jack trades ide master one alone puts scsi ide scsi 2 blows ide water remember scsi used high priced machines 18 months ago mac prices came earth rule scale still played scsi remained high cost cheap seems mean high end computer world times anything else kept scsi price wise scsi came high end computer world multitasking os standard part interface next could used choose scsi 16 bit 32 bit mode scsi multi tasking os interface ide 8 bit scsi braindead run one program interfaces least way mac use 8 bit scsi ugh
bgrubb dante nmsu edu \( grubb \) subject ide vs scsi organization new mexico state university , las cruces , nm lines 9 distribution world nntp posting host dante nmsu edu pc magazine april 27 , 1993 29 although scsi twice fasst esdi , 20 faster ide , support 7 devices acceptance long stalled incompatability problems installation headaches note site factor price int eh article pc would get plug play scsi article seems get plug play scsi 1 since scsi 2 full implimentation ten 7 devices scsi 1 intergration another part microsoft plug play program
eng monash edu au \( g chow \) subject esdi ide \? \? \? organization monash university lines 27 article info win tue nl monty info win tue nl \( guido \) writes hi , possible use esdi controller hdd together ide harddisk controller one isa system \? 've read stuff secondary controllers trick work \? thanx advance , guido monty win tue nl question guido possible use esdi drive master ide drive slave \? moment , using esdi drive recently bought ide drive use 2nd drive person computer shop told possible run 2 disk controller cards together motherboard \( esdi ide \) think might way making work anybody enlighten \? possible run esdi hdd using ide controller \? vice versa \? anybody please help \? help much appreciated g chow eng monash edu au cc monash edu au yoyo cc monash edu au
balog eniac seas upenn edu \( eric j balog \) subject floppy drive problem help ! ! ! organization university pennsylvania lines 25 nntp posting host eniac seas upenn edu hi ! problem floppy drives effort make 3 5 drive \( normally b \) drive , switched order connections cable serial card floppy ide controller booted , changed cmos settings reflect drive 3 5 b drive 5 25 drive lights n't come , failure trying read drives switched cables back original positions , booted restored original cmos settings lights floppies came process , stay long computer see disk , drive spinning , yet seems disk access msd exe norton si detect drives , try get detailed information b , norton si tells disk drive anyone offer suggestions \? i'm desperate need help ! ! ! thank time eric balog balog eniac seas upenn edu
wong ws13 webo dg com \( e wong \) subject help 24bit mode ati organization data general corporation , westboro , lines 16 finally got vesa driver ati graphics ultra plus \( 2m \) however , tried use view 24bit mode , get lines picture 16bit , picture fine someone tell wrong \? card , software \? thanks 8 \) user 's name edward wong internet wong ws13 webo dg com telephone \( 508 \) 870
organization penn state university dxb132 psuvm psu edu subject ide vs scsi distribution world lines 18 article dns1 nmsu edu , bgrubb dante nmsu edu \( grubb \) says pc magazine april 27 , 1993 29 although scsi twice fasst esdi , 20 faster ide , support 7 devices acceptance long stalled incompatability problems installation headaches love magazine writers make stupid statements like performance get numbers \? 'll list actual performance ranges , convince anyone statement absurd scsi ranges 0 5mb scsi ii ranges 0 40mb ide ranges 0 8 3mb esdi always 1 25mb \( although non standard versions \)
beta wsu edu \( mark smith \) subject toshiba 3401b cd rom problems \? keywords sound board cd rom toshiba organization washington state university tri cities lines 14 i'm thinking getting toshiba 3401 cd rom hooking scsi port media vision pro audio spectrum sound board anybody configuration \? , work \? anybody general toshiba 3401 cd rom drive , problems \? door opening , scratched disks , door closing \( getting stuck closing way \) , cd holder cd related problems thanks advance mark
ronaldm extro ucc su oz au \( ron \) subject problem adaptec 1542b scsi jumbo tape drive summary problem getting jumbo tape drive adaptec scsi working together keywords scsi cms jumbo adaptec 1542b tape nntp posting host extro ucc su oz au organization sydney university computing service , sydney , nsw , australia lines 39 hi , 've replaced existing dtc scsi controller adaptec 1542b , trouble restoring jumbo 250 tape drive trouble installing adaptec dos scsi drive existing ide drive however went restore backups jumbo tape found extremely slow \( estimated time 3 mins actual time 15 min ! \) trouble restoring tape ide drive seem remember reading settings changed enable jumbo drive adaptec work together ca n't find mention manuals system config i486dx 33 4mb adaptec 1542b running 180mb fujitsu scsi ide controller running 200mb ide jumbo 250 running floppy controller ide help would appreciated thanks , ron \( ronaldm extro ucc su oz au \) ron ronaldm extro ucc su oz au 41 rd phone 61 2 \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \( work \) plateau 61 2 918 \( home \) australia ron ronaldm extro ucc su oz au 41 rd phone 61 2 \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \( work \) plateau
ccu umanitoba ca \( william john christie \) subject joystick suggestions \? nntp posting host cc umanitoba ca organization university manitoba , winnipeg , canada lines 31 depends 'd like joystick 've seen joysticks radio shack seemed flimsy n't fit well hand heard c p games n't last well \( less year \) one redeeming feature seem ability adjust tension stick recently purchased ch n't suction cups tension adjusters otherwise seems excellent joystick i'm currently using wing commander series red baron works quite well large base require hand leaves free buttons provide good response \( hear feel well \) models made ch go features price comparison analogue joysticks sell 35 00 compared 45 00 paid ch think extra 10 00 worth feel best thing ask salesperson let try least feel buy another note , analogue joysticks best something needs sensitive touch 're playing games castle game uses digital input \( ie , , left , etc instead 'how much right' \) might want look look like nintendo control pad n't know much beyond christie ! philosophy principles university manitoba uh oh science thought reality winnipeg , mb , canada i'm leaking philosopher someone thinks ccu umanitoba ca brain lubricant 're useful society
catone compstat wharton upenn edu \( tony catone \) subject 17 monitors c5geh5 n1d utdallas edu organization university pennsylvania lines 14 nntp posting host compstat wharton upenn edu reply goyal utdallas edu 's message 14 apr 93 03 17 28 gmt article c5geh5 n1d utdallas edu goyal utdallas edu \( mohit k goyal \) writes oh yeah , read another newsgroup t560i uses high quality trinitron tube monitors \( sony 1604s example \) extra cost comes also high bandwidth comes , fantastic image , large image size , etc , etc 's also two annoying lines across screen \( one third , two thirds \) come tony catone compstat wharton upenn edu
tiger netcom com \( tiger zhao \) subject buslogic 542b questions organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 28 goyal utdallas edu \( mohit k goyal \) writes anyone tell card works march os 2 2 1 beta \? believe , since buslogic cards proven reliable os 2 2 0 get os 2 drivers \? \( oem manufactures \) get software package card includes drivers novell , os 2 , unix xenix forth card work toshiba 3401b cdrom \? \( dos os 2 \) definitely setup scsi hd toshiba 3401b cdrom i'm considering 542b told buslogic 's support better 542b performs better anyways , want know 542b work os 2 dos thank extremely much replies
darrylo srgenprp sr hp com \( darryl okahata \) subject problem adaptec 1542b scsi jumbo tape drive reply darrylo sr hp com organization hewlett packard center primal scream therapy x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 2 lines 560 ron \( ronaldm extro ucc su oz au \) wrote 've replaced existing dtc scsi controller adaptec 1542b , trouble restoring jumbo 250 tape drive 's document wrote time back 's slightly date , dos 6 released , much still useful darryl okahata internet darrylo sr hp com disclaimer message author 's personal opinion constitute support , opinion policy hewlett packard little green men following day id adaptec txt 1 8 1993 01 25 00 55 08 darrylo rel darrylo hints tips adaptec 1540 1542 scsi adapter document contains hints tips getting adaptec 1540 1542 scsi adapter work various hardware software packages based upon experiences adaptec 1542a controller , , hopefully , help others however , note cannot guarantee following really help \( works \) , information document could possibly cause lose files hard disk important ! back entire contents hard disk trying anything based upon information document copyright 1993 , darryl okahata document may freely copied personal use , may reprinted profit publication without consent author please note connection adaptec customer topics covered document windows 3 1 enhanced mode floppy controller based tape backup devices sound cards miscellaneous info please note parts document contain technical , sometimes , descriptions problems reference adaptec technical support \( 800 \) 959 adaptec bbs \( 2400 9600 \) \( 408 \) 945 please send comments , corrections , etc via email compuserve , internet darrylo sr hp com windows 3 1 enhanced mode windows 3 1 install program automatically configure dos windows use adaptec 1542 however , case something went wrong , i'm going describe changes needed get windows 3 1 working 1542 also , may noticed installing windows 3 1 makes pc run much slower , even 're running windows methods speeding discussed section called , windows 3 1 runs slowly msdos configuration windows install program adds smartdrive disk cache config sys autoexec bat files follow instructions , 'll notice 'll need use double buffering smartdrive \( default setup \) 'll also notice system runs much , much slower windows msdos see section called , windows 3 1 runs slowly , ways speeding system windows configuration get adaptec 1542 work windows , make sure section system ini file contains entry believe windows install program automatically adds entry system ini , i'm sure n't work , might want try adding lines false a000 \( probably n't need lines , though \) entry used enable support memory managers like qemm 386max \( needed use programs \) windows 3 1 runs slowly get windows 3 1 running 1542 , chances system running much slower 's , 's probably 1 happen using aspi4dos sys version 3 1 config sys file congratulations appears winning solution 2 lucky whether luck hold remains seen system running much slower , almost definitely caused smartdrive double buffering according windows documentation , microsoft technical note \( smartdrive double buffering required aspi4dos sys \) , must use smartdrive double buffering enabled works , really slows pc estimated slowed pc factor 5 \( five \) consider unacceptable , looked solutions unfortunately , cannot disable double buffering , windows 3 1 enhanced mode work , might even destroy contents hard disk trying run windows 3 1 one following 1 use drivers provide double buffering opinion unbelievable smartdrive caused either horribly inefficient double buffering , bug smartdrive 2 use driver provides services \( stands virtual dma services \) standard , supported windows 3 1 , allows bus mastering disk controllers \( like 1542 \) work windows trashing hard disk countless times , found following solutions , none require using smartdrive \( note , however , getting occasional parity errors , probably caused solutions , might see \) following require smartdrive , using kind disk cache utility strongly recommended , makes windows run much , much faster 1 aspi4dos sys driver , need aspi functions \( controlling cdrom , tape drive , two physical hard disks , etc \) , add scsiha sys driver config sys file , e g driver c scsiha sys v386 \( windows needs v386 option \) driver must loaded low memory \( cannot loaded high memory \) , occupies 16 20k november 1992 , scsiha sys driver could obtained adaptec bbs \( 408 \) 945 \( hopefully , 's still \) 2 need aspi functions aspi4dos sys driver , version 3 0 3 0a , use aspi4dos sys scsiha sys drivers config sys file , e g driver c aspi4dos sys driver c scsiha sys v386 amazingly enough , scsiha sys driver also loaded high \( assuming dos 5 0 \) would thought would crash system , n't asked adaptec 's technical support , said loading scsiha sys high fine long aspi4dos sys loaded low system , using scsiha sys aspi4dos 3 0a would occasionally cause windows 3 1 crash upon restarting exiting windows , additional result corrupted disk \( c windows grp files would corrupted \) , crashes usually occurred making different program progman exe default windows shell , vice versa reason scsiha sys may necessary absolutely idea scsiha sys necessary versions aspi4dos earlier 3 0 note many people use aspi4dos 3 0 3 0a without scsiha sys seem problems consider people lucky others , like , sorts problems 3 opinion , best , necessarily easiest , solution upgrade aspi4dos 3 1 scsiha sys driver longer needed unfortunately , could get previous aspi4dos upgrades adaptec bbs , aspi4dos 3 1 driver available adaptec bbs far know , three ways get copy buy new \( november 1992 \) adaptec ez scsi driver kit , supposedly includes aspi4dos 3 1 well drivers , cdrom drivers believe list price around 75 already copy older version aspi4dos , supposedly contact adaptec upgrade ez scsi around 30 copy aspi4dos 3 1 included central point pc tools 8 0 msdos note documentation driver stored different directories note aspi4dos included cdrom drivers drivers support two hard disks included obtained copy aspi4dos 3 1 note , however , getting occasional parity errors windows probability , defective hardware pc causing , upgraded motherboard found solutions however , parity errors occur disk accesses , small , definite , possibility parity errors driver related \( example , changing bus timing certain disk transfers might cause \) 've run various memory tests hours time , tests found problems problem probably caused memory marginal timing requirements , cause parity errors disk transfers \( memory tests n't find problems problems show disk \) however , i'm mentioning case n't hardware problem floppy controller based tape backup devices two possible problems using adaptec 1542 floppy controller based tape backup device , colorado memory systems jumbo 250 1 tape backups restores take long time tape drive constantly starts , stops , starts , stops , etc 2 tape operations may erratic , encounter many tape errors \( problem might caused defective hardware 1542 however , 've heard people similar problems , i'm mentioning case hardware problem 1542 \) tape backups restores take long time floppy controller based tape backup device , may adjust adaptec 1540 1542 bus timing best results using tape drive normally , tape backup restore , tape drive motor continuously running , occasional pause however , default bus timing adaptec 1540 1542 may cause tape drive motor start stop , start stop , every seconds causes needless wear tape tape drive \( however , note dirty tape head defective tape drive also cause make sure tape heads clean \) also causes tape backup restore take much , much longer necessary problem tape backups use floppy dma transfer data memory tape drive , adaptec uses dma transfer data memory hard disk floppy dma needs feed data tape drive certain rate tape drive fed data quickly enough floppy dma , tape drive stops , bit , \( enough data eventually fed \) default bus timing adaptec \( really dma timing \) large example , backup done , data transferred hard disk memory , memory tape default timing adaptec hogs memory much \( much time spent transferring data hard disk memory \) , enough time spent transferring data memory tape drive result , tape drive constantly starts stops , data fed quickly enough solution change adaptec 's bus timing default factory setting 11 microseconds , 5 microseconds bus timing needs lowered 2 4 microseconds done one two ways aspi4dos , use n option example , use bus timing 4 microseconds , means use following line config sys file device c aspi4dos sys n4 note space n 4 n't aspi4dos , recourse try find program called setscsi exe , difficult find reason adaptec , reasons , seem want widely distributed asked someone worked adaptec , asked upload anywhere anonymous ftp access internet , could try using archie hunt copy believe couple sites find copy , run like setscsi n 4 adjusts bus timing 4 microseconds running setscsi exe without arguments resets bus timing back factory defaults note seems cannot use setscsi exe use aspi4dos setscsi exe crashed system aspi4dos loaded could use setscsi exe scsiha sys , however lower bus timing 2 microseconds , increase 11 microseconds lower low , hard disk throughput suddenly drop system feel slower , 4 microseconds works fine value may work fine , may adjust downwards little 've lowered bus timing , tape backups restores run faster also , experiment bus times \( options intentionally described \) , unless know bad combinations cause parity errors worse , starving memory refresh program called exe exists adaptec bbs unless upgraded since last checked \( \) , self extracting archive containing batch file couple files batch file supposed allow one set bus times 1540 1542 others however , tried running program 1542a , system crashed time , running scsiha sys , n't check see conflict maybe old program works 1542b , although docs say works 1542a \? erratic tape operations many tape errors problem may may exist although existed system , hardware problem particular 1542 could cause however , 've heard people similar problems , i'm mentioning case n't hardware problem 1542 symptoms problem , persists even cleaning tape head 1 backing tape encounters unusable sector detected errors , resulting aborted tape backup 2 tape backup works , tape compare fails 3 tape drive starts , stops , starts , stops , etc much often unlike mentioned problem \( tape backups restores take long time \) , tape drive starts stops every seconds , kind starting stopping occurs every 10 20 seconds 4 fastback plus 3 1 find see tape backup devices programs , like central point backup cms jumbo software \( assuming cms jumbo 250 tape drive \) find see tape drive , fastback plus 3 1 cannot 5 many tape read errors although know causing problem , discovered using different floppy controller solves months ago , upgraded motherboard , contained integrated floppy controller already floppy controller 1542 , initially disabled motherboard floppy controller , decided try disabling 1542 floppy controller using one motherboard , tape drive \( cms jumbo 250 \) reliability increased dramatically , fastback plus 3 1 suddenly able find use tape drive n't know caused hardware problem 1542 one hand , floppy drives worked great attached 1542 , seems say nothing wrong 1542 hand , tape drive n't work well attached 1542 floppy controller , work attached different controller could indication hardware problem 1542 change floppy drive cables , conceivable problem cables n't know cause really however , 're similar problems , might want consider trying new floppy controller sound cards many popular sound cards play record digitized sound , typically done using dma like tape drive dma , adaptec 's dma conflict sound card dma unlike tape dma , conflict usually manifests parity error \( system crashes parity error message \) happens , data transferred quickly sound card adaptec , memory refresh cannot occur quickly enough , causes parity error usually , getting parity error means hardware problem system case , however , parity error symptom bad hardware 've found parity errors typically occur recording digitized sound , chances errors increase increase recording fidelity \( e g , higher sampling rate , recording stereo , recording using 16 bits instead 8 , etc \) like tape drive solution , solution lower adaptec 's bus timing see section tape drives information done note , however , may may solve problem may reduce probability parity error software used record digitized sound greatly affect problem \( e , software inefficient \) disk caches , speed hard disk , amount disk fragmentation also affect miscellaneous info section contains miscellaneous hints , tips , rumors much merely information 've heard read , verified believe following information correct , i'm sure use risk qemm 6 00 , 6 01 , 6 02 , need specify db parameter \( e g , db 2 \) , unless using aspi4dos driver n't , qemm crash hang bootup although qemm manual mentions , install program seem detect 1542 present automatically add option qemm command line \( least , occurred qemm 6 00 install program n't tested version \) earlier versions qemm probably need parameter , i'm sure \( 've never used version earlier 6 00 \) use aspi4dos , need give qemm db parameter versions 1542 support hard disks one size support hard disks capacities , need get new rom bios adaptec i'm sure still true latest sold adaptec connect cdrom drive 1542 , need scsi cdrom drive drivers note cdrom drives proprietary interfaces \( non scsi \) drives cannot used 1542 three choices cdrom drivers \( idea well following solutions work , even work following secondhand information \) 1 buy adaptec 's ez scsi driver package , lists something like 75 already older adaptec drivers , supposedly upgrade ez scsi around 30 contact adaptec details ez scsi package supposedly contains everything need 2 buy corelscsi ! driver package , made people make coreldraw ! package contains cdrom drivers , scsi tape drivers , worm drivers , etc know list price , 've seen package sold around 80 90 note corelscsi ! come aspi4dos driver , needed already aspi4dos , may better getting adaptec 's ez scsi instead 3 method obsolete , following drivers obsoleted adaptec 's ez scsi kit , i'm mentioning case someone already drivers use drivers adaptec asw kit \( aspi4dos \) asw 410 kit \( aspi cdrom drivers \) get copy mscdex exe \( high level cdrom driver \) , included asw 410 kit , available several bulletin boards use scsi tape drive 1542 , need software knows talk scsi tape drive software 've heard \( , like section cdrom drives , idea well following solutions work , even work following secondhand information \) 1 central point pc tools 8 0 msdos supposedly supports large number scsi tape drives comes scsi drivers \( aspi4dos 3 1 \) well central point backup 2 corelscsi ! driver package contains scsi tape backup program \( see section cdrom drives details \) however , note corelscsi ! come , requires , aspi4dos 've seen advertisements sell 1542 three configurations 1 1542 scsi controller hard disk rom bios 2 1542 scsi controller w bios adaptec aspi drivers 3 1542 scsi controller w bios , adaptec aspi drivers , corelscsi ! drivers programs imagine adaptec sells 1542 fourth configuration 4 1542 scsi controller w bios ez scsi drivers \( including aspi drivers \) people use unix might interested version gnu tar msdos talks scsi tape drive via aspi4dos driver \( need driver use program \) 've never used version gnu tar , 've heard works \( n't know well , though \) anonymous ftp access internet , copy found wsmr simtel20 army mil mirror sites pd1 msdos zip gnu tar scsi tape drives , adaptec zip patches relative gnu tar 1 10 zip src gnu tar scsi tape , adaptec idea copy found compuserve might , forum far msdos concerned , 1542a 1542b controllers msdos , 1542a work well 1542b however , hardware two boards 100 identical , least one \( non msdos \) program initially work 1542a , work 1542b \( 386 version bsd unix \) case anyone 's curious , 's edited copy config sys file files 40 buffers 40 break stacks 10 , 256 device c sys dev aspi4dos sys n4 device c qemm qemm386 sys ram rom dma 32 st x dos high , umb devicehigh c sys dev sys devicehigh c dos setver exe shell c dos command com p note i'm using qemm aspi4dos 3 1 using aspi4dos 3 0 3 0a , 'd probably use config sys looked like files 40 buffers 40 break stacks 10 , 256 device c sys dev aspi4dos sys n4 device c qemm qemm386 sys ram rom dma 32 st x dos high , umb devicehigh c sys dev scsiha sys v386 devicehigh c sys dev sys devicehigh c dos setver exe shell c dos command com p n't using aspi4dos , 'd probably use something looked like files 40 buffers 40 break stacks 10 , 256 device c sys dev scsiha sys v386 device c qemm qemm386 sys ram rom db 32 dma 32 st x dos high , umb devicehigh c sys dev sys devicehigh c dos setver exe shell c dos command com p however , used floppy controller based tape drive , planned record high quality sound sound card , would still need way changing adaptec 's bus times first two versions config sys take care , last version n't local variables fill column 72 eval \( auto fill mode nil \) end
cs3sd3ae maccs mcmaster ca \( holly ks \) subject western digital hd info needed nntp posting host maccs dcss mcmaster ca organization department computer science , mcmaster university lines 11 western digital also three sets pins back using another hard drive well settings jumpers written right circuit board wd drive sl \? \? ca n't remember last one ca n't find markings circuit board , 'll open machine tell mine kevin holly mcmaster university , hamilton , ontario cis mcmaster ca
cup portal com \( \) subject zeos computers organization portal system \( tm \) distribution world lines 11 recently purchased current pkg 486dx 33 \( changed nec 3fgx monitor upgrade \) buy pkg 3 100 , get bigger hd 340mb 256 hd cache 30 days ago , bought pkg , hd cache great deal although generally recommended least upgrade zeos \( ctx \) monitor 99 believe whether also upgrade diamond viper video card choice stayed diamond speedstar pro zeos tech support really good call normal business hours get fastest access hardest part buying zeos wait till delivered order hardly wait get ! quite good mail order houses around lots bang buck zeos
cuhk hk subject dos6 boot disk required n't want emm386 load nntp posting host csc cuhk hk organization computer services centre , c u h k distribution usa lines 20 article cs utexas edu sms cs utexas edu \( stephen mark sanderson \) writes sms cs utexas edu \( stephen mark sanderson \) subject dos6 boot disk required n't want emm386 load date 8 apr 1993 15 12 40 0500 everybody , dos 6 users particular , take note want play games hate use upper memory manager , dos 6 problem boot disks required system starts , hit f5 key tells bypass config autoexec altogether get plain , generic session dos , nothing loaded 's another function key actually steps thru config sys asking want execute line , 've forgotten moment try finding think 's f9 , need bypass config sys , dos 6 0 , function multi config , tried boot sys \? multi config kind choose config sys startup find good conflict qemm \( problem using boot sys \) key say f8 , trace config sys step step sorry , error \) phillip \( cuhk hk \)
uoft02 utoledo edu subject 1 800 832 western digital reply organization university toledo , computer services lines 3 1 800 832 western digital 's voice mail get information many drives , actual person end
greg navy mil \( gregory k ramsey \) subject micron computer , inc \( formerly edge technology \) organization naval civil engineering lab , port lines 9 since net convinced try fastmicro \( still answering phones \) anybody opinions micron computer , inc \? magnum got editors choice jan 26th 486 email 'll greg greg navy mil
oz au \( jason \) subject dac circuit organization pro net australia lines 54 g 'day , looking build parallel port digital analogue converter day came across schematic promptly threw together piece p2 p3 p4 100k p5 200k p6 p7 800k electrolytic p8 p9 ceramic \( please excuse obvious limits lower ascii char set \) constructed sitting inside nice little grey abs box unfortunately ca n't get work little demo name \( schematic came \) get pump box data type hash static small amount music signal behind 's even worse speaker inside machine anybody net computer world ideas suggestions better designs improvements bin etc \? many thanks reply via conference email x regards , jason jason computer department internet usenet oz au grammar school fidonet node 3 640 702 \( grammar bbs \) 45 paxton street data phone 61 77 72 \( int \) queensland \( 077 \) 72 \( aust \) australia 61 77 72 2340 \( int \) \( 077 \) 72 2340 \( aust \) god made simple , science made god stephen king 's `the lawnmower man'
ab245 cleveland freenet edu \( sam latonia \) subject heatsink needed organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 9 nntp posting host slc10 ins cwru edu andrew , get heat sinks digi key 1 800 344 part nd 4 10 size 1 89 l x 1 89 w x 600 h comes clips install would get 12 99 small fan radio shack install could blow cpu instead sam gosh think installed virus called ms dos6 n't copy floppy burn love windows crash
midway ecn uoknor edu \( matthew b lawson \) subject high performance vlb video card \? summary seek recommendations vlb video card nntp posting host midway ecn uoknor edu organization engineering computer network , university oklahoma , norman , ok , usa keywords orchid , stealth , vlb lines 21 brother market high performance video card supports vesa local bus 1 2mb ram anyone suggestions ideas diamond stealth pro local bus orchid 1280 ati graphics ultra pro high performance vlb card please post email thank ! matt matthew b lawson \( essex ecn uoknor edu \) , nebuchadnezzar , praise glorify king heaven , everything right ways nebuchadnezzar , king babylon , 562 b c
djweisbe unix amherst edu \( david weisberger \) subject booting b drive nntp posting host amhux3 amherst edu organization large x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl7 lines 17 5 1 4 drive drive make system boot 3 1 2 b drive \? \( optimally , computer would able boot either b , checking order bootable disk switch cables around simply switch drives ca n't boot 5 1 4 disks , 's ok also , boot b wo n't trick \) thanks , david weisberger q mr president , care say operational details \? djweisbe president unix amherst edu q explaining american people 's important issue united states undertake \? president \?
franke informatik rwth aachen de \( christian franke \) subject info fast centronics , ecp , epp organization informatik rwth aachen lines 25 nntp posting host informatik rwth aachen de keywords centronics , ecp , epp hello , edn magazine found note new c controller support several parallel port protocols , including fast centronics microsoft enhanced capabilities protocol \( ecp \) enhanced parallel port \( epp \) last two handle data rates sec specification protocols available \? regards , christian franke aachen university technology informatik 55 w 5100 aachen germany tel 49 241 80 e mail franke informatik rwth aachen de
ifi unizh ch \( martin \) subject monitor xga news software ibm os 2 pm rn \( nr 2 \) v0 16 vishnepolsky r rogers lines 12 nntp posting host reply ifi unizh ch \( martin \) organization university zurich , department computer science 1993apr15 watson ibm com kaul vnet ibm com writes home viewsonic 6 like 's easy run modes like colors noninterlaced , higher modes like oh yeah ! got new yesterday \( replace old 8515 \) , tried mode great ! get four perfectly readable command windows screen ! need colors , go back 1024x768 even 800x600 one thing wondering though n't file contains resolutions \? change pro every time want switch , instead simply going system settings os 2 regards , martin
inf ethz ch \( andreas \) subject s3 nntp posting host gw organization dept informatik , swiss federal institute technology \( eth \) , zurich , ch lines 40 problems s3 initialization described manual following steps must done th initialization s3 card \( bios call ax reg bx reg 1024 x 768 x 256 resolution interrupt 10h \) unlock register lock 1 \( \) \( access s3 register set \) unlock register lock 2 \( \) \( access control extension register \) unlock graphic command group \( \) \( set bit 0 1 configuration register \) unlock advanced display functions \( set bit 0 1 function control register \) operations fifo stack s3 empty watch status \( graph proc status \) , always get value instead 0h full would mean \( 8 places occupied \) , empty would mean 0h \( 0 places occupied \) possible read register two different ways times get different results machine 486 dx 2 eisa bus s3 86c805 local bus ideas \? andreas institut fuer , eth email inf ethz ch
penev rockefeller edu \( penio penev \) subject recommendations local bus \( cached \) ide controller reply penev venezia rockefeller edu organization rockefeller university x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 distribution usa x posted venezia rockefeller edu nntp posting host sol ctr columbia edu lines 19 15 apr 1993 20 14 20 gmt divya sundaram \( sundaram egr msu edu \) wrote would like hear net wisdom net opinions ide controllers would liek get ide controller card vlb dx2 66 motherboard good options \( preferably 200 \) must also work os 2 compatible stacker \( disk compression w \) maxtor 212mb isa ide controller , although machine dx2 66 vlb save transfer rate 0 647 mb regardless variations isa bus speed tested speed 5 5mhz 8 33mhz difference problem interface controller memory advice buy ram , save 70 enjoy performance penio penev x7423 \( 212 \) 327 7423 \( w \) internet penev venezia rockefeller edu disclaimer oppinions mine
l h wood lut ac uk subject 8051 simulator example code available \? reply l h wood lut ac uk \( lloyd wood \) organization loughborough university , uk lines 25 hello world , i'm attempting write 8051 simulator ibm pc teaching purposes , first year elec eng students workings microcontroller performs operations logical , example , shown bit bit basis \( 1 1 1 \) students see 's really mystical process , totally logical , example every instruction show , alter register memory port contents anyone know freely available example simulation code , pascal modula 2 , would show i'm going wrong writing simulator \? i'm using 's 8051 microcontroller reference simulator supplied package overkill simple teaching purposes , feel , 's source code help roll please email help , know somewhere appropriate posting rarely scan groups thanks , lloyd wood l h wood lut ac uk
rz uni sb de \( carsten grammes \) subject wanna sex ! ! ! organization universitaet des , rechenzentrum lines 27 nntp posting host rz uni sb de hello , 're quite sure 's joke \? anyway read article ! 're right ! ! ! \( 1 header \( \) joke , 2 's worth reading \) perhaps know regular ide harddisk give available information ide strongly interested contacting manufacturers directly money overseas calls , need harddisk manufacturer 's email addresses please help ! carsten carsten grammes internet rz uni sb de experimental physics 49 681 302 3032 universitaet saarbruecken 49 681 302 6600 saarbruecken germany
minyos xx rmit oz au \( lost cause \) subject connection machine organization royal melbourne institute technology lines 19 nntp posting host minyos xx rmit oz au , realise little pc 's lot hardware , nay heard computer called connection machine , could e mail info , eg references , ideas etc help appreciated caviar dreams l cause minyos xx rmit oz au royal melbourne institute technology music like directing sounds , landscapes wanted link music places , architectural environments visual techniques j
rosa ghost dsi unimi \( massimo rossi \) subject ide scsi controller organization computer science dep milan university lines 16 hi folks 2 hd first seagate second cdc 340mb \( future domain ram \) 'd like change 2 controller ide scsi buy new one ram \( least 1mb \) could companies \? many \? possible via hw via sw select divide ram cache 2 hd \? \( example using dos one hd 'd like reserve ram cache \) thanks write rosa ghost sm dsi unimi
extro ucc su oz au \( huynh \) subject apple hard disk drive \? nntp posting host extro ucc su oz au organization etc organization lines 15 wanted ask question bought hard disk drive second hand day , opened packaging saw small sticker drive little red apple bite taken 's socket look existing hard disk computer already \( fifty little pins sticking instead 39 sticking old hard disk n't know disk drives apple \( mac \) different ones used clones , could someone tell could use hard disk clone \? , purchase \? 's quantum prodrive 's dated 1988 green board need controller add card \? help much appreciated thanks ! \) pc
ico isc com \( timothy hu \) subject hard disk question organization interactive systems corp , boulder co lines 24 article aovai qube ocunix ca aovai qube ocunix ca \( aovai \) writes hi , disassembled old xt get 2 disk drives hard drive 360k floppy drive questions use 2 drives drives e 386sx25 \? 386sx25 currently 80m hard drive , 1 2m 1 44m floppy drives , w h w need \? would doubt would able use hard drive xt drives usually came mfm rll flavors bet 386sx ide drives two compatible controller however , might able use drive controller 386sx able plug 360k drive existing 386sx controller \( think \) might use floppy controller used xt timothy hu ico isc com intelligence \( lack \) expressed interactive systems corporation necessarily reflect resource solutions international anyone else also thu uwyo edu
titan ucs umass edu \( david todd \) subject video board system \? organization university massachusetts , amherst lines 40 reply david todd psych umass edu nntp posting host titan ucs umass edu 'd appreciate advice video card system 486 33 dx , 16 mb ram novell 3 11 network monitor nec , capable 76 hz vertical refresh rate major considerations expect work mostly windows , dos applications would want decent speed dos mostly word processing , database communications much intensive graphics 15 monitor , expect work mostly 800x600 256 colors seems plenty , 'd like like image sharp , fast , rock solid considerations sometimes run unix clone \( coherent \) understand companies \( e g diamond \? \) n't encourage third party development drivers might move os 2 decide need better speed reliability get windows database work multitasking n't local bus motherboard i'm sure much invest isa video board \( versus getting something less expensive upgrading local bus later \) like buying things companies treat customers well advice , 'd love hear via email post thanks david todd department psychology , university massachusetts , amherst , usa phone 413 545 david todd psych umass edu fax 413 545
spring diku dk \( jesper honig spring \) subject 486 66dx2 \( isa \) vs 486 \( eisa \) organization department computer science , u copenhagen lines 18 hello , anyone give opinion system got best overall system performance 486 66dx2 isa bus 486 eisa bus systems equal areas thanks advance jesper honig spring , spring diku dk animals believed god university copenhagen , denmark devil would man
allen uucp \( allen \) subject mountain tape backup lines 18 dh anyone mountain tape backup could compare dh notes , \( jumper settings , software , ect \) dh anyone know could contact makers drive \? dh contact mountain network solutions dh 800 458 0300 \( general number \) dh 408 438 \( tech support \) dh 408 438 \( bbs \) thanks much info david ! especially tech bbs lines get going bye ! x slmr 2 1a x 's hobby hobby origin keep bbs \( 1 342 13 \)
keele ac uk \( c \) subject ctx lines 22 distribution world nntp posting host seq1 cc keele ac uk x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 started similar thread month ago , got many replies summary ctx 14 nasty , low quality avoid ctx 15 good makes however , cheap main problem seems poor quality control reported \( problem \) , others poor focus , etc , etc complained mine 're \( dod n't even pay shipping \) returned 2 days 's clear , well focussed barrel distortion i'm happy , digital controls mode memory nice certainly , trinitron \( say \) would much nicer , 's well price range conclusion 're budget , get one prepared send back 's perfect probably wo n't get , good potential chris
penev rockefeller edu \( penio penev \) subject 486 66dx2 \( isa \) vs 486 \( eisa \) reply penev venezia rockefeller edu organization rockefeller university x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 x posted venezia rockefeller edu nntp posting host sol ctr columbia edu lines 14 fri , 16 apr 1993 10 00 19 gmt jesper honig spring \( spring diku dk \) wrote anyone give opinion system got best overall system performance 486 66dx2 isa bus 486 eisa bus 66 eisa vesa royal , among others , system 2010 penio penev x7423 \( 212 \) 327 7423 \( w \) internet penev venezia rockefeller edu disclaimer oppinions mine
marka hcx1 ssd csd harris com \( mark ashley \) subject ide vs scsi organization ft lauderdale , fl lines 17 nntp posting host hcx1 ssd csd harris com almost got hernia laughing one anything , scsi \( pc \) obsolete killed vesa local bus ide must real nice get shafted 20 100 bucks extra cost scsi drive , pay another 200 300 scsi controller first , huge software packages files produce , ide may longer sufficient \( 510 mb limit \) second , \( rumor \) microsoft recognizes importance scsi support soon i'm sure 's dos , win , nt rate , deal corel makes \( hear \) good set scsi drivers mark ashley disclaimer opinions harris' marka gcx1 ssd csd harris com lost los angelino
toppoint de \( joerg \) subject difference vlb isa eisa distribution world organization lines 24 epcot spdc ti com writes article 1993apr14 spdc ti com vlb 486dx50 local bus still run 33mhz try run 50mhz \? \? \? brian hi , vlb defined 3 cards 33mhz 2 cards 40mhz designs 50mhz 2 vlb slots \( c't 9 92 , 10 92 , 11 92 \) 50mhz 2 slots realy difficult design better oss \( os 2 ix \) able handle 16mb dram , use eisa bus someone experience vlb \? \? think scsi vlb busmaster problem 16bit floppy dma controller , unable reach 16mb joerg
griffith egr msu edu \( terry griffith \) subject orchid fahrenheit answers organization michigan state university , college engineering lines 21 distribution na nntp posting host elvira egr msu edu ok thanks responded post 's official response orchid orchid aware problem , new rev board \( rev \) \( would \) take care problem production scheduled start april 15 , confirmation production start day word tech line flame would think company like orchid produced good quality products past would helpfull willing make right screwup poor tech support \( first 2 times called must spoke talking \) last time talked tech named paul seemed pretty good idea going problems neither department buy recommend orchid products flame thanks answered post terry
nyx cs du edu \( tony \) subject two questions organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept lines 14 two questions 1 i'm trying figure access cmos advanced chip setting eisa motherboard \( air \) ami bios specifically would like set wait states bus speed board , ca n't seem able help area would greatly appreciated 2 looking phone number wangtek tape drives , specifically looking jumper settings drive thanks advance tony
marka hcx1 ssd csd harris com \( mark ashley \) subject eisa tape controllers organization harris csd , ft lauderdale , fl lines 11 distribution usa nntp posting host hcx1 ssd csd harris com qic 80 format tape drive comes eisa controller \? colorado 's 250 isa mca controllers thanks e mail please mark ashley disclaimer opinions harris' marka gcx1 ssd csd harris com lost los angelino
freenet carleton ca \( lau hon wah \) subject choosing appropriate power supply please help ! reply freenet carleton ca \( lau hon wah \) organization national capital freenet lines 24 previous article , cogsci ucsd edu \( \) says problem recently hd go bad someone suggested may inadequate power supply one know kind wattage necessary run two large \( 1 2 660 \) expert understanding watts output power supply must exceed sum hard disk watts requirement typically , power supply sufficient power pc hope help lau hon wah
dab6 po cwru edu \( douglas bell \) subject vesa local bus \? \? \? \? organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 15 reply dab6 po cwru edu \( douglas bell \) nntp posting host slc12 ins cwru edu previous article , guyd austin ibm com \( guy dawson \) says something bear mind v vlb stands ! v video origional intention bus speed bus large memory memory transfers would faster useful transfering data main memory video memory well , picky , v vlb stands vesa v vesa stands video , saying v vlb stands video entirely correct
volkert kub nl \( volkert \) subject q cd rom players would choose os 2 \? organization tilburg university , tilburg , netherlands nntp posting host kub nl lines 38 netters ! need cdrom drive order cancelled thought ask net \? ordering nec cdr 74 saw much cheaper ones want know drive used install software \( available \) listening cd 's perhaps day 'll want use read cd 's , 's really relevant moment 've offered following cd rom players , prices stated claim scsi , operate os 2 drives listed cdrom faq therefor , please give opinions drives , 've got impression 're scsi actually nec listed non scsi cdrom faq compatible scsi product 've calculated prices dutch times 2 's actually times 1 8 mitsumi 240 philips 300 philips 205 350 toshiba \? 370 nec cdr 74 650 bought trantor faq \? 's extremely cheap scsi , 's trick order \( holland using mastercard \) trantor 200 regards , jv name j v address 4 4847 hw fax holland e mail volkert kub nl oooo oooo
adcock bnr ca \( doug adcock \) subject perfect mag mx15f monitors \? organization bell northern research , bnr rtp lines 26 've following mag thread waiting mine arrive mail seems lot complaints minor alignment problems mx15f one article contained comment owner called factory told screen rotation within spec \( 1 4 \) well , monitor arrived last night , sure enough , noticable barrel distortion 's dramatic , especially noticable image n't fill entire screen fact worse right side n't help matters i'm trying find minor imperfections norm monitors perfect \? n't want send back get one even worse problem factory consider kind thing normal ship monitors less perfect alignment \? netters living kind imperfections \? comments opinions mine bnr 's doug adcock adcock bnr ca bell northern research research triangle park , nc
nusunix1 nus sg \( \) subject connecting apple laserwriter ii ibm pc organization national university singapore x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 11 anyone tried connecting apple laserwriter ii pc \? need special controller card software \? thanks comments nusunix1 nus sg
wyatt chem nrl navy mil \( \) subject shopping new nec \? monitor lines 39 organization nrl article titan ucs umass edu titan ucs umass edu \( david todd \) writes titan ucs umass edu \( david todd \) subject shopping new nec \? monitor date 15 apr 1993 07 01 20 0400 article darwin sura net wbarnes sura net \( bill barnes \) writes basically i'm looking 15 svga \( 1024x768 \) non interlaced monitor nec 4fg one computer mags use standard , 've seen heard looks pretty good , 's bit expensive \( 700 bucks best deal 've seen \) thought perhaps might find something good less recommendations \? also thought nec 3fgx , specs 4fg except scan frequency , limited anybody comments one \? would work believe nec replacing 4fg 3fgx models , reportedly released end month i'm waiting , main difference 3 year warranty higher refresh rates higher resolutions sounded pc magazine note number ways call nec 800 number send info david todd department psychology , university massachusetts , amherst , usa phone 413 545 david todd psych umass edu fax 413 545 using nec 3fgx several months several others also monitor problems personally would spend extra money monitor sacrifice features pc 33 mhz viz 50 mhz based comments others might want view 3fgx vs 4 series pc running windows 1024x768 refresh rate appears ok , might feel differently finally speaking spending money , size today 's files , etc , tape backup certainly worth 200 300 recently set friend 's pc 50mhz vesa local bus redraw time graphics program factor 2 faster doubt warrants extra cost
david com \( david engel \) subject wanted opinions mag 17s nanao 560i monitor organization optical data systems , inc x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 distribution usa lines 17 sleeping dragon \( ong iastate edu \) wrote i'm looking buy 17 monitor soon , seems ca n't decide monitor buy mag 17s \( 25 dpi version using tube \) nanao 560i mind good luck finding looking around back december january , mag n't producing could n't get tubes sony asked expected restart production willing wait months get said time soon wound getting t560i extremely happy david david engel optical data systems , inc david com 1101 e road \( 214 \) 234 6400 richardson , tx
soltys unc edu \( soltys \) subject hard disk utilities \? originator soltys melanoma unc edu nntp posting host melanoma unc edu organization radiation oncology , unc , chapel hill , nc distribution usa lines 26 hi pc gurus ! i'm new groups please forgive questions frequently asked , n't know answer \) 've recently problems 386 computer seagate 40 meg hard drive occasionally find corrupted files , time programs work fine utilities easily available help determine whether problem result hard drive vs ill behaved program hardware item \? determine whether hard drive properly aligned etc \? might expected , would greatly appreciate help matter i'm considering reformatting disk reinstalling everything \( hoping fix problem \) , would like assurance problem cause also , someone give opinion dos 6 0 \? compression defragmentation routines good enough consider upgrade n't routines already \( opposed buying separately \) \? much thanks advance help soltys soltys unc edu
wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca \( wayne smith \) subject recommendations local bus \( cached \) ide controller organization john p robarts research institute , london , ontario distribution usa nntp posting host valve heart rri uwo ca lines 33 article 1993apr16 sol ctr columbia edu penev venezia rockefeller edu writes would like hear net wisdom net opinions ide controllers would liek get ide controller card vlb dx2 66 motherboard good options \( preferably 200 \) must also work os 2 compatible stacker \( disk compression w \) maxtor 212mb isa ide controller , although machine dx2 66 vlb save transfer rate 0 647 mb regardless variations isa bus speed tested speed 5 5mhz 8 33mhz difference problem interface controller memory advice buy ram , save 70 enjoy performance computer 286 25 mhz bus isa \( 12 5 mhz \) drive maxtor \( 213 mb \) config sys autoexec bat ms dos 5 win 3 1 smartdrv sys cache smartdrv exe core \( v 2 7 \) k sec k sec 1395 k sec norton si \( v 5 0 \) 730 k sec 980 k sec 982 k sec 'd still like people vlb ide still want know vlb bus speed used ide drives still want know \( \? \) ide drives handle bus speeds 8 mhz ps friend 286 20 new maxtor \( 245 meg ide \) drive gets 800 1000 k sec \( ca n't remember exactly \) think bus running 8 mhz case
umbc edu \( mr william \) subject ibm pc convertible parts 4 sale organization university maryland , baltimore county campus lines 26 nntp posting host umbc edu x auth user used , working , parts available original ibm laptop pc convertible one things , still using , may found ibm wants outrageous prices parts built supply enough parts keep mine going years , willing part rest basically , standard parts except motherboard battery power supply 've got accessories , ask limited supply , however 've basically couple old machines interested , please e mail note want convince somehow superior newer better machines , want inform worthless junk , save effort 'll delete note us bought machines first came still find useful word processing , etc i'm saving mine future antique
bgrubb dante nmsu edu \( grubb \) subject ide vs scsi organization new mexico state university , las cruces , nm lines 49 distribution world nntp posting host dante nmsu edu dxb132 psuvm psu edu writes scsi ranges 0 5mb scsi ii ranges 0 40mb ide ranges 0 8 3mb esdi always 1 25mb \( although non standard versions \) tell proper story scsi scsi 8 bit asynchronous 1 5mb ave , synchronous 5mb max transfer base scsi 1 faster requires scsi 2 controller chip provides scsi 2 8 bit 16 bit speeds scsi 1 controlers scsi 2 4 6mb 10mb burst 8 bit , 8 12mb 20mb burst 16 bit , 15 20mb 40mb burst 32 bit wide fast 16 bit scsi wide fast , depends port designed quadras support fast scsi wide os scsi manager rewritten since use scsi 1 non wide port article pc mag 4 27 93 29 talking scsi 1 scsi 2 uses ten \( 10 \) devices native mode , outside native mode behaves lot like scsi 1 \( 7 devices , slower put figures scsi 1 indeed twice esdi article pointed 20 faster ide seems 8 bit scsi 1 using scsi 2 contoler chip mac quadra uses scsi 2 controler chip scsi 1 gets 6mb put asynchronous 8 bit scsi 1 , far excess normal synchronous scsi 1 output 120 8 3 9 96 near burst scsi 1 machine scsi 2 controller chip pc world seems scsi 1 scsi 2 mixed fact scsi 2 controler chips allow near scsi 2 speeds scsi 1 device shown mac quadra data scsi 1 vs ide esdi test agree article could stated 20 faster ide came scsi 1 device scsi 2 chip maybe editor killed article dealing scsi 1 scsi 2 understand effect scsi 1 device scsi 2 controller chip scsi 1 chips limited 5 mb max scsi 1 devices scsi 2 chips becoming common produce 10mb 8 bit mode 20mb 16 bit mode fast version , scsi 1 ports cannot use wide scsi prime piece scsi 1 devices scsi 2 chips accurately machine allows best worlds high scsi 2 speeds scsi 1 costs full scsi 2 hardware \( port , electronic controller , etc \) expensive also creates nightmare fast scsi 1 goes one knows facts behind numbers one realizes article knows talking even tell figures came dxb132 psuvm psu edu throwing ranges n't tell squat since ignores scsi 1 devices scsi 2 chips ranges tell even less intended
cannon mksol dseg ti com \( christopher cannon \) subject help 24bit mode ati organization texas instruments , inc lines 26 article wong ws13 webo dg com wong ws13 webo dg com \( e wong \) writes finally got vesa driver ati graphics ultra plus \( 2m \) however , get driver please , please , please ! ! ! ! 've waiting months tried use view 24bit mode , get lines picture 16bit , picture fine someone tell wrong \? card , software \? thanks 8 \) user 's name edward wong internet wong ws13 webo dg com telephone \( 508 \) 870 cannon lobby ti com
bgrubb dante nmsu edu \( grubb \) subject ide vs scsi organization new mexico state university , las cruces , nm lines 44 distribution world nntp posting host dante nmsu edu dxb132 psuvm psu edu writes article dns1 nmsu edu , bgrubb dante nmsu edu \( grubb \) says pc magazine april 27 , 1993 29 although scsi twice fasst esdi , 20 faster ide , support 7 devices acceptance long stalled incompatability problems installation headaches love magazine writers make stupid statements like performance get numbers \? 'll list actual performance ranges , convince anyone statement absurd scsi ranges 0 5mb scsi ii ranges 0 40mb ide ranges 0 8 3mb esdi always 1 25mb \( although non standard versions \) shows n't know much scsi scsi 1 scsi 1 controler chip range indeed 0 5mb right scsi scsi 1 scsi 2 controller chip 4 6mb 10mb burst 8 bit note increase speed , mac quadra uses version scsi 1 exist pc use set scsi 2 8 bit scsi 1 mode 4 6mb 10mb burst scsi 2 16 bit wide fast mode 8 12mb 20mb burst scsi 2 32 bit wide fast 15 20mb 40mb burst data although scsi twice fast esdi correct scsi 2 controller chip scsi 1 reach 10mb indeed 20 faster ide 120 8 3 9 96 scsi facts posted newsgroup mac ibm info sheet available ftp sumex aim stanford edu \( 36 44 0 6 \) info mac report mac ibm compare version txt \( 173 161 may still \) part problem mac ibm pc scsi though well documented quadra scsi 2 chip apple salesperson said uses fast scsi 1 chip 6mb , 10mb burst scsi 1 5mb maximum synchronous quadra uses scsi slower seems mac ibm see scsi 1 interface think 1' maybe scsi 1 interface driven machine scsi 2 controller chip 8 bit mode much faster true scsi 1 go n't slam article n't understand going one reference quadra 's scsi 2 controller chip \( digital review , oct 21 , 1991 v8 p8 \( 1 \) \)
matt ksu ksu edu \( \) subject booting b drive organization kansas state university lines 14 nntp posting host matt ksu ksu edu djweisbe unix amherst edu \( david weisberger \) writes 5 1 4 drive drive make system boot 3 1 2 b drive \? \( optimally , computer would able boot either b , checking order bootable disk switch cables around simply switch drives ca n't boot 5 1 4 disks , 's ok also , boot b wo n't trick \) thanks , try get setup pressing ctrl alt ins ctrl alt pc 's give option set regarding drives boot
cas spl1 spl loral com \( carl swanson \) subject pc sound sb organization loral software productivity lab lines 9 read sometime last couple weeks , article play pc sound soundblaster n't save article old articles purged system would whomever posted article detailing connect wires please post \? specifically , need know connect wires pc speaker sb card thx advance , carl
scott hpcvccl cv hp com \( scott linn \) subject 32 bit box gateway nntp posting host hpcvccl cv hp com organization hewlett packard company , corvallis , oregon usa lines 16 playing around gateway 2000 local bus machine last night , became apparent windows 3 1 n't give option 32 bit access virtual memory using permanent swap file , disk drive local bus interface expected , investigating 32 bit option appears \? thanks help scott linn scott hpcvccl cv hp com
prl philips nl \( eddy \) subject question get serial mouse working ibm notebook \? organization philips research laboratories , eindhoven , netherlands lines 13 happen know get serial mouse \( 9 pins \) working ibm notebook \( kind bus mouse connection besides serial parallel interfaces \) manual n't say anything 've tried two drivers , result left right buttons recognized , mouse movement cut shortcut wires mouse \? thanks help eddy philips research prl philips nl
glang slee01 srl ford com \( gordon lang \) subject laserjet iv upgrades opinions organization ford motor company research laboratory lines 43 nntp posting host slee01 srl ford com x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 \( larryhow austin ibm com \) wrote current products available upgrade resolution \? ones support postscript \? experiences , either good bad \? quality difference really noticable \? i'm planning producing camera ready copy homes higher resolution noticed \? talking laser jet 4 believe postscript n't see advantage using pcl peice hardware plugged work support language suited job besides n't think pcl even capable handling 1200 dpi specifications experience laser master winjet 1200 brings 1200 dpi uses postscript also fast print mode postscript , lower resolution \( think \) , fast ! ! ! ! particular product uses host processor process postscript , even decent pc know 's going slow e slow compared high end workstation processed ps quality difference noticable almost worth wait \( ps processing \) i'm rather impatient using b w camera images \( rs 170 \) gray scale image accepted ms word handed winjet ps printer driver converts image postscript hands postscript processor postscript rendered ram \( lots \) done shoots directly printer ps processor also accept ps files created sources including dos applications , windows running time printing ps processor responsible 'd say pretty good job camera images came good opinion \( good laser master 's demo though \) n't know many similar products would surprised several gordon lang
delman upenn edu \( delman lee \) subject tandberg 3600 future domain tmc seagate st problem \? \? distribution comp organization university pennsylvania , usa lines 37 nntp posting host upenn edu trying get system work tandberg 3600 future domain tmc seagate st mfm controller system boots tandberg disconnected system , course scsi devices found \( scsi devices \) system boots seagate mfm controller removed system future domain card reports finding tandberg 3660 scsi bus system course stops booting mfm hard disks ca n't found system hangs three \( tandberg , future domain tmc seagate mfm controller \) system looks like conflict seagate future domain card funny thing hangs tandberg connected checked conflict bios addresses , irq port missed anything \? lost suggestions welcomed thanks advance delman delman lee tel 1 215 medical image processing group , fax 1 215 898 university pennsylvania , 4 f blockley hall , 418 service drive , philadelphia , pa , u internet delman upenn edu
en ecn purdue edu \( silvio \) subject logitech 2 button mouse bios routines availability \? organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 21 newsgroups comp ibm pc hardware subject logitech 2 button mouse pin bios routine availability \? distribution world organization purdue university engineering computer network logitech 2s 2f \( 2f 2s \) 2 button mouse want interface serial port different \( non ibm compatible \) system mouse xt compatible , db25 connector tried reverse engineer mouse , micro controller inside could get db25 pin , perhaps copy bios routines support , could map target system \? anyone know might get pin bios routines \? routines published someplace convenient \? thanks ! silvio ps please send email directly !
glang slee01 srl ford com \( gordon lang \) subject booting b drive organization ford motor company research laboratory lines 24 nntp posting host slee01 srl ford com x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 david weisberger \( djweisbe unix amherst edu \) wrote 5 1 4 drive drive make system boot 3 1 2 b drive \? \( optimally , computer would able boot either b , checking order bootable disk switch cables around simply switch drives ca n't boot 5 1 4 disks , 's ok also , boot b wo n't trick \) thanks , issue plague us months gateway finally got tired permanently drives reason n't first place several bootable 5 1 4 's 5 1 4 based install disks expected drive order new software \( upgrades \) 3 1 2 number stupid install programs ca n't handle alternate drive declining time ones upgraded bootable 5 1 4 's cut 3 1 2 replacements switching drives option , might able wire drive switch computer chasis n't tried think would work long wired carefully gordon lang
huot cray com \( tom huot \) subject soundblaster irq port settings lines 22 nntp posting host pittpa cray com organization cray research inc x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 cybard \( dudek acsu buffalo edu \) wrote uzun netcom com \( william roger uzun \) writes soundblaster board 486 sx pc , jumpered irq 7 , port conflict parallel port \? ide controller , multi io board , port vga board choose another irq besides 7 \? irq 7 safe use 486 motherboards \? recently adding modem computer , noticed lpt1 uses irq 7 sb card \( \) 've never problem , i'm wondering thought would cause conflict would also like explanation anyone explain sb pro lpt 1 share irq , please thanks tom huot huot cray com
jre zeos com \( jim erickson \) subject bye organization zeos international , ltd distribution comp sys ibm pc hardware , biz zeos general , biz zeos announce lines 17 today longer contact zeos international net responsibility taken another tech \( davidm zeos com \) moving \( mo money , mo money \) \) wanted thank netters supported encouraged participation zeos net personally feel important companies zeos provide customers easy access possible questions problems net big step right direction hope companies follow suit \( weitek others done \) , thanks jre jim erickson eeee oo ssss zeos international , ltd support zeos com inet z e technical support dept uunet ! zeos ! support uucp z ee 1301 industrial blvd n e opinions expressed z e minneapolis , mn herein ! eeee oo ssss fax 612 633
luke aero org \( robert luke \) subject help ! installing old hd older compaq xt organization aerospace corporation , el segundo , ca lines 27 distribution world nntp posting host aerospace aero org trying install donated hard disk \( miniscribe vintage 1988 \) ancient compaq xt use education problem compaq n't come manual n't able figure start setup program began using pcs 286s invented , couple basic questions 1 xt class computers even setup programs \? 2 \( , \) , access \? anybody good advice proceed next look , please let know e mail best , 'll also watching newsgroup postings thanks advance , robert robert luke internet luke aero org aerospace corporation compuserve , danger , robinson !
al col hp com \( al devilbiss \) subject zeos computers organization hp colorado springs division lines 22 distribution world nntp posting host col hp com ccwf cc utexas edu \( matthew p speed \) writes looking purchasing 486 system zeos computers would appreciate people could give feedback quality products customer service along advice systems people like thanks advance bought system little 2 years ago , satisfied everything zeos computer went grad school son replaced 486dx2 66 pkg 4 \( 345 , 16mb ram \) diamond viper , 128k level 2 cache , tower upgrades , delete ctx monitor got 17 hp monitor employee purchase great system , fast , quiet , built , single glitch bringing tech support seems 2 years ago called configuration question , called back 4 hours later right answer think 's slight premium gateway prices , imho zeos worth btw enough 800 lines 've never gotten busy signal calling sales , customer service , tech support , usually wait 5 10 minutes talk someone , least get queue wait dime al devilbiss al col hp com
ghost dsi unimi \( paolo \) subject svga \? organization computer science dep milan university lines 21 excuse every one amiga owner tired graphic modes saw nn little made amiga 's pc slots communicate amiga 's slot building mother house little gadget assure using thing use pc boards included svga cards interested computer graphics know many things pc general , best \( isa slot \) card market \? 'd like reach resolutions like 1280x1024 256 colors 800x600 24 suggestion \? \? thankyou advance paolo certified commodore amiga developer ghost sm dsi unimi
cunning mksol dseg ti com \( patrick w cunningham \) subject amd cpu nntp posting host localhost organization texas instruments lines 4 comments amd \? good \? , bad \? thanks , pat
cunning mksol dseg ti com \( patrick w cunningham \) subject leading tech question nntp posting host localhost organization texas instruments lines 10 hey , anybody know anything leading technology computers \? \? leading technology need new mother board anybody know get one \( leading really made samsung samsung model sd 700 \)
cs rmit oz au \( glenn jayaputera \) subject need info high quality video card organization rmit department computer science lines 10 hi need info video card looking video card deliver high quality picture need card display images \( well advertising company btw \) , must rich colors speed must fast wondering somebody advise buy application , possible address vendor thanks advance glenn jayaputera
kentiler matt ksu ksu edu \( kent p iler \) subject comments accelerated video card isa bus organization kansas state university lines 8 nntp posting host matt ksu ksu edu hi , looking buy accelerated video card 486 dx 50 isa bus 14 svga ni monitor i'm currently running dos 5 0 windows 3 1 , although i'm considering os 2 future anyone make suggestion video card would suit needs \? diamond speedstar \? stealth \? etc thanks kent
interlan com \( michael scanlon \) subject 17 monitor rgb sync vga \? \? keywords rgb vga 17 monitor lines 13 organization none distribution usa n't know obvious question , current batch windows accelerator cards \( diamond etc \) used drive monitor rgb horizontal vertical sync \( 5 bnc jacks altogether \) connectors back \? \? might able get ahold raster technologies 17 monitor \( \? \? \) cheap wondering possible connect via adapter \( rgb vga \? \? \) gateway , would need different drivers etc thanks mike scanlon please reply scanlon interlan com
u96 vaxc stevens tech edu subject sale ! ! lines 26 organization stevens institute technology sale ! ! ! 's good condition , used one year 25 mhz intel 386 52 mb hard disk super color vga monitor 2 button mouse 1 44 mg floppy disk drive software microsoft dos 5 0 microsoft windows 3 1 microsoft works windows 2 0 borland turbo pascal 6 0 borland turbo c 3 0 dos i'm asking 1499 system send e mail interested
bnr ca \( tracy \) subject 17 monitors nntp posting host organization bell northern research x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 33 tony catone \( catone compstat wharton upenn edu \) wrote article c5geh5 n1d utdallas edu goyal utdallas edu \( mohit k goyal \) writes oh yeah , read another newsgroup t560i uses high quality trinitron tube monitors \( sony 1604s example \) extra cost comes also high bandwidth comes , fantastic image , large image size , etc , etc 's also two annoying lines across screen \( one third , two thirds \) come 2 lines result high end trinitron tube , 2 wires found 17 trinitron tubes \( e g , mitsubishi 17 , sony 1604 , etc \) 14 sony tubes , 'll find one wire level annoyance purely subjective i'm happy t560i n't even notice lines t560i uses trinitron sa tube , viewed complete tube , larger diameter standard trinitron tube results flatter screen 17 monitors using standard trinitron \( vertically flat horizontally flat surface \) , apparently ability provide tighter beam focus , , , karl tracy e mail bnr ca fax 1 613 765 consultant opinions ph 1 613 765 ` ' ' ' bell northern research , p box 3511 , c , ottawa , ont , k1y 4h7 ` '
s106275 ee tut fi \( anssi saari \) subject soundblaster irq port settings organization tampere university technology , computing centre lines 16 distribution inet nntp posting host ee tut fi 1993apr16 walter cray com huot cray com \( tom huot \) writes would also like explanation anyone explain sb pro lpt 1 share irq , please think 's simply dos n't use irq anything os 2 , ca n't share irq anssi anssi saari s106275 ee tut fi tampere university technology finland , europe
guyd austin ibm com \( guy dawson \) subject ide vs scsi originator guyd pal500 austin ibm com organization ibm austin lines 35 article dns1 nmsu edu , bgrubb dante nmsu edu \( grubb \) writes pc magazine april 27 , 1993 29 although scsi twice fasst esdi , 20 faster ide , support 7 devices acceptance long stalled incompatability problems installation headaches note site factor price premium approx 200 controller nice able run hard disks , tape drives , cd roms scanners one dma channel interupt ! scsi makes sense going load machine , want standard box windows ide makes sense one loaded box uses scsi run unix one standard box runs dos windows uses ide standard mean 486 , 4 8mb ram , disk , s3 video int eh article pc would get plug play scsi article seems get plug play scsi 1 since scsi 2 full implimentation ten 7 devices beleive last bit plain wrong ! scsi 1 intergration another part microsoft plug play program guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns co uk tel hoskyns uk 71 251 2128 guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa 512 838 3377
sherwood adobe com \( geoffrey sherwood \) subject orchid p9000 vs fahrenheit \( mini review \) organization adobe systems incorporated x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 79 purchased viewsonic 17 orchid p9000 short , happy monitor unhappy card spent lot time card , going write monitor pretty 17 magnavox went away n't heavy thought would \( 45 lbs , think \) much monitor bitch session test results going modern trend , orchid p9000 card supports 16 colors 640x480 mode without driver course , breaks dos program uses svga modes \( like cd roms \) vga , orchid fahrenheit 1280 , orchid f vlb share limitation s3 cards , means s3 problem \( p9000 uses weitek vga chip also n't support \) hercules graphite card seem modes , n't run test cases boards brief time able print screen 's encyclopedia , though , s3 cards printed hash , suspect svga modes supported supported resolutions really annoy 1280x1024 75hz tell driver nec 5fg \( six monitors listed plus , choose generic ca n't get high refreshes \) 1024x768 limited 70hz seems hardware able support bandwidth \( 75hz 1280 sure able 1024 ! \) higher vertical resolution main reason bought card orchid f vlb currently , hz well higher graphics modes crash hp dashboard got phone orchid , 1 1 drivers \( n't know \) unable recreate problem plus side , tech rep helpful could booted program computer verify n't problem n't know limited refresh 70 hz either board faster ofvlb things according hercules speedy program program tests various operations reports results pixels second n't numbers graphite card , close half ofvlb \( ie , slower \) running 20mhz 386 , isa , numbers n't really comparable following numbers obtained using 486 , 33 mhz , air motherboard \( chipset \) , 8 mb memory give ranges program reports numbers computes , tend jump around bit k means thousand \( 1024 \) , means million , pixels per second orchid fahrenheit vlb orchid p9000 chip s3 805 weitek 9000 dib screen memory screen 5 9m 6 2m 8 4m 8 9m screen screen 14 8m 30 8m vector , solid 2 4m 2 8m 2 9m vector , styled polygon , shaded 1 8m 2 1m 1 6m 1 9m polygon , 6 9m 7 9m 1 3m 1 7m 1 9m 2 4m font 160k 46k 1 2m dib screen test takes device independent bitmap face transfers screen idea done internally far conversions go memory screen takes face copies screen , guess rasterized bitmap copied video display screen screen test copies face place place screen awesome ! interestingly , solid vectors shaded polygons show improvement , polygons \( ie , filled cross hatching \) \( whatever graphics operations like xors maybe \? \? \? \? \) dead loss 9000 give two numbers 9000 fonts , think caching fonts first drawn screen done fairly slowly 1 3 speed ofvlb speed increases dramatically sounds like programming benchmark make claims numbers mean anything saw ran computer normally n't write disclaimers , time maybe 'd better testing totally unconnected work \( program unix decstations \) done completely without knowledge , blessing , equipment company geoff sherwood
fwi uva nl \( \( \) \) subject question connect two harddisk one controller \? summary want connect second harddisk controller keywords harddisk , controller , mfm nntp posting host gene fwi uva nl organization fwi , university amsterdam lines 21 hi , 've got victor pc xt 20 mb harddisk controller toshiba mfm controller , additional 9 pins connector 2 busses harddisk controller one 9 wires another 34 wires controller two connectors 9 wire bus one 34 wire bus got 20 mb harddisk friend mine , wondered whether connect second harddisk controller \( room 9 wire bus , 34 wire bus \) solve problem , suggestions \? need info , mail , please \( fwi uva nl \)
jon umcc umcc umich edu \( jon \) subject s3 video card different address organization umcc , ann arbor , mi lines 7 distribution usa nntp posting host umcc umcc umich edu 'd like add second s3 based video card system anyone know company sells card coexist another one \? really need color text one monitor fast color graphics probably configurable address would
balog eniac seas upenn edu \( eric j balog \) subject switch 3 5 \? organization university pennsylvania lines 39 nntp posting host eniac seas upenn edu hi ! 'd like switch floppy drives 3 5 b drive becomes , 5 25 becomes b i'm problems , though know ribbon cable must switched , well cmos settings , reflect change , think 've done correctly however , drives operate correctly configuration c prompt , type , 5 25 drive light comes type b , light 5 25 3 5 drives come jumpers drive 5 25 label original pos pos changed ds3 io r fg 3 5 ds3 mm dc md ttl c help suggestions would greatly appreciated thanks advance eric balog balog eniac seas upenn edu
gjp sei cmu edu \( george pandelios \) subject help select backup solution organization software engineering institute lines 55 hi netters ! i'm looking purchasing sort backup solution read situation , 'd like opinion 's scenario 1 two computers house one small 286 \( 40mb ide drive \) 386dx \( 213 scsi drive w adaptec controller \) systems pc tools use central point backup backup restore program systems 3 5 5 25 floppies 2 computers networked \( anytime soon \) seen far , appear least 4 possible solutions \( i'm sure others n't thought \) options , would appreciate hearing anyone tried sees flaws \( drive type x wo n't coexist device , etc \) thinking \( n't know much beasts \) 1 put 2 floppy drives \( combination drive \) system someone supply cost brand information \? 's good brand \? floppies cost \? 2 put internal tape backup unit 386 using scsi adapter , continue back 286 floppies , someone recommend manufacturers \? brand remember colorado memories happy unhappy users \( know compression controversy \) \? 3 connect external tape backup unit 386 using scsi adapter , \( maybe \? \) connect 286 somehow \( suggestions \? \) 4 install floptical drive machine , gotcha 's recommendations manufacturers \? appreciate help may either post send e mail summarize responses net thanks , george george j pandelios internet gjp sei cmu edu software engineering institute usenet sei ! gjp 4500 fifth avenue voice \( 412 \) 268 7186 pittsburgh , pa 15213 fax \( 412 \) 268 5758 disclaimer opinions reflect software engineering institute , sponsors , customers , clients , affiliates , carnegie mellon university fact , resemblence opinions individual , living dead , fictional real , purely coincidental
alchemy chem utoronto ca \( paul davies \) subject help ! ! video problems organization university toronto chemistry department lines 13 using ibm monitor \( 19 \) trident \( 1mb \) card screen looks great \( windows \) 640x480 total shit 1024x768 lots lines image sorta blurry anything think monitor \? know interlaced res still thanks help paul davies alchemy chem utoronto ca
mikgr wpsun4 uucp \( michael grant \) subject comments video blaster \( creative labs \) organization wordperfect corporation , orem ut lines 42 article 1993apr14 ultb isc rit edu , ritvax isc rit edu writes bu edu heiser acs2 bu edu \( bill heiser \) writes article chinet chi il us randy chinet chi il us \( randy \) w rites video blaster n't work ati graphics ultra pro , n't work 15m system ram serious \? ca n't use video blaster 16mb 486 33 \? alternatives \( removing memory \? \) get better one win tv thing \? gates dawn banshee cats ucsc edu calling head \? od 0667 friend beast banshee ucscb ucsc edu 2 , 3 , 5 , 7 , 13 , 17 , 19 , 31 , 61 , 89 , 107 , 127 , 521 , 607 banshee ucscb bitnet good watchit tv run dos windows win tv run windows sorry still good watchit tv work local bus video work high modes either people make card assure card available june supports local bus hi res btw anyone know name company makes watchit tv \? phone \? bbs \? internet \? thanks michael grant \( mikgr wordperfect com \) \( mikgr wpsun4 uunet uu net \)
uxa cso uiuc edu \( john \) subject int15h joysticks slow organization university illinois urbana lines 25 lioness oak circa ufl edu writes i'm using int15h read joystick , hideously slow something like 90 cpu time spent reading joystick , program nothing printf \( \) \( \) problem lot programs trap int15h \( like smartdrv \) slow hell interface read joystick port reasonably safe fashion via polling \? n't platform specific \? joystick reads values digital port \? send command port read , time long takes joystick port set certain bit time proportional joystick position obviously , since time used position , cannot get rid waste time wrote routine instead bios , would speed , time would still john old man used tell , left j uiuc edu shitty world , never chase buses women \( 217 \) 337 always get left behind marlboro man
gdr bath ac uk \( andrew henry \) subject fujitsu seagate ide drive compatibility organization school biological sciences , university bath , uk lines 17 've trying get fujitsu hard disk \( circa 1990 \) share ide card new seagate st3283a one 've tried fiddling jumpers set master slave drives without success without table hard drive specs newsgroup could n't got far anyone else got combination work place got new one muttered something like hmmm fujitsu , nice drives , compatible 'll let swap seagate another brand thought problem fujitsu anyone got similar fujitsu drive work another disk want buy cute little fujitsu drive \? andrew henry gdr bath ac uk
doug oke mindlink bc ca \( doug oke \) subject memory access time \( sram simms 4 sale \) organization mind link ! british columbia , canada lines 41 ben elliston writes msg id z3 fidonet org posted mon , 12 apr 1993 10 41 0 organization compact solutions , canberra act australia 64k sram way thinking , michael , could memory static ram speed rating \? n't think sram needed refresh time n't make fast dram \? chip would take return valid data issued address refresh time \( none sram , pointed \) different parameter , generally referred except motherboard designers cheers , ben ben elliston bachelor engineering \( computer engineering \) university canberra email tp923021 canberra edu au uucp ! uunet ! munnari ! sserve adfa oz au ! compsol ! root fidonet 3 620 262 train station train stops , 's workstation \? ! origin compact solutions canberra act australia \( 3 620 262 \) doug oke vancouver , canada doug oke mindlink bc ca
rtp semi harris com \( bob \) subject q asus motherboards \? nntp posting host rtp semi harris com organization harris semiconductor , research triangle park , nc keywords asus motherboard linux summary seeking advice experience asus motherboards , eps wrt linux lines 9 i'm considering purchase 486dx 33 vlb system run linux system asus brand motherboard anyone comments asus motherboards \? thanks , bob rtp semi harris com systems analyst phone \( 919 \) 549 harris semiconductor rtp , nc usa
lynx dac northeastern edu \( robert king \) subject specs wd drive organization northeastern university , boston , 02115 , usa distribution na lines 15 greetings could kind sole email specs western digital drive \? model 782 cyl 4 hds know sectors per track , information feed bios get running thanx help bob k lynx dac northeastern edu nope sig honest \)
adykes jpr com \( al dykes \) subject need definition spec benchmarks organization unix nyc distribution na lines 15 need definitions spec benchmarks background material would also welcome email something point anonymous ftp server 'd appreciate thanks al dykes adykes jpr com adykes ad com
cup portal com \( \) subject toshiba 3401b cd rom problems \? organization portal system \( tm \) lines 1 pas16 toshiba 3401 combo problems
nigel coles oz au \( nigel harwood \) subject adaptec asw 410 sony 641 organization coles supermarkets lines 24 two months ago purchased adaptec asw 410 driver use cd rom drive time seemed thing documentation adaptec scsi controller said driver used cd rom drives since learn driver date major way adaptec upgrade deal going next driver \( think 's called scsi something \) n't upgraded cd rom drive sony 541 sony 641 find audio mode work assume handled correctly asw 410 driver , chase adaptec upgrade \? anyone know fax number \? assistance appreciated regards btw everything else works fine , certainly seems sony caught rest 641 nigel harwood post coles supermarkets , po box 480 glen iris , australia phone 61 3 829 e mail nigel coles oz au fax 61 3 829
isis msstate edu \( paul e carroll \) subject rotate interrupter woops ! ! help ! ! nntp posting host isis msstate edu organization mississippi state university lines 22 ! ! ! ! ! please someone tell done ! ! ! 40 meg miniscribe \( \) big sticker side says rotate interrupter \( big knob \) big knob sticking side drive pretty hard turn removing drive ! turned drive wo n't spin ! even data controller cables plugged power wo n't spin ! ! please help ! thanks paul carroll \( ra msstate edu \) \( erc msstate edu \) nsf engineering research center computational field simulation
balog eniac seas upenn edu \( eric j balog \) subject drive boot organization university pennsylvania lines 26 nntp posting host eniac seas upenn edu hi ! recently switched 3 5 drive problem , read write new b correctly , ca n't boot floppy 've checked cmos settings set floppy seek boot boot order , c , floppy systems files got message telling put disk systems disk drive n't work systems disk drive , happens 1 \) power memory test 2 \) light comes 3 \) b light comes , followed short beep 4 \) hd light comes instant 5 \) b light comes , nothing happens light goes , disk activity kind , screen blanks ca n't even use ctrl alt del suggestions thanks advance eric balog balog eniac seas upenn edu
bsardis netcom com \( barry sardis \) subject date stuck organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 32 kevin kosman uucp \( kevin o'gorman \) writes anybody seen date get stuck \? i'm running ms dos 5 0 menu system alive time machine left running time suddenly , date longer rolls time \( reasonably \) accurate allways , change date hand every morning involves exiting menu system get dos anyone slightest idea \? even clue whether hardware \( battery \? cmos \? \) dos broken \? kevin o'gorman \( kevin kosman uucp , kevin kosman uucp nrc com \) voice 805 984 vital computer systems , , oxnard , ca non disclaimer boss , stands behind everything say 've started notice thing i'm running dos 5 win 3 1 fix windows control panel times date , others clock seems running several minutes behind find 'd like know also oh , also leave system running time barry sardis home \( 408 \) 448 laurie avenue office \( 408 \) 448 7404 san jose , ca 95125 fax \( 408 \) 448 7404 email bsardis netcom com 1210 compuserve com
wbarnes sura net \( bill barnes \) subject help ! installing second ide drive organization suranet , college park , md , usa , na , earth , milky way lines 44 nntp posting host sura net recently cousin got second internal ide drive \( seagate 210mb , look model number 's important \) 've trying help install 've got vested interest , since machine 's busted use get mine fixed already seagate 85mb ide hd \( , forget model number find \) anyway , ca n't seem get bloody thing 've managed get one drive \( disconnected \) , time whenever try , thing hangs bootup never gets past system test ide controller 's instruction sheet says supports two drives think 've configured cmos correctly power 's plugged properly even learned master slave relationship two hds supposed \( n't know pcs ! 8 \) think configured jumpers properly \( 85mb one master , new 210mb one slave \) thing think maybe i'm cabling wrong 've tried several combinations controller master slave controller slave master master controller slave none worked unfortunately , ca n't think others another possibility 85mb one already partitioned two seperate drives , c , cmos asks c drive drive setup info rather drive 1 drive 2 like others 've seen could confusing things \? , need help ! drive came bereft docs , except info cmos setup controller little piece paper size index card cable \( 's one connector end one middle , looks like serial connection \) lost ! many , many thanks advance ! practically emergency \( two papers thing monday ! \) ! help ! william barnes suranet operations wbarnes sura net \( 301 \) 982 4600 voice \( 301 \) 982 4605 fax disclaimer n't speak suranet n't speak
organization penn state university dxb132 psuvm psu edu subject ide vs scsi distribution world lines 55 article dns1 nmsu edu , bgrubb dante nmsu edu \( grubb \) says dxb132 psuvm psu edu writes article dns1 nmsu edu , bgrubb dante nmsu edu \( grubb \) says pc magazine april 27 , 1993 29 although scsi twice fasst esdi , 20 faster ide , support 7 devices acceptance long stalled incompatability problems installation headaches love magazine writers make stupid statements like performance get numbers \? 'll list actual performance ranges , convince anyone statement absurd scsi ranges 0 5mb scsi ii ranges 0 40mb ide ranges 0 8 3mb esdi always 1 25mb \( although non standard versions \) data although scsi twice fast esdi correct \( 0 40 twice 1 25 \? pick whatever scsi setup makes statment correct \? \) even could make statement would meaningless unless understood esdi ide \( include scsi ata \) completely different \( esdi device level , like mfm rll \) scsi 2 controller chip scsi 1 reach 10mb indeed 20 faster ide 120 8 3 9 96 scsi facts great , compare two numbers \( ata several speed modes , way \) article said misleading wrong posted newsgroup mac ibm info sheet available ftp sumex aim stanford edu \( 36 44 0 6 \) info mac report mac ibm compare version txt \( 173 161 may still \) would recommend people call ncr board download ansi specs really interested stuff part problem mac ibm pc scsi though well documented quadra scsi 2 chip apple salesperson said uses fast scsi 1 chip 6mb , 10mb burst scsi 1 5mb maximum synchronous quadra uses scsi slower seems mac ibm see something missing \) anyway , agree 's lot opportunity marketing like scsi 2 compliant tells nothing performance , whether wide support , etc one reference quadra 's scsi 2 controller chip \( digital review , oct 21 , 1991 v8 p8 \( 1 \) \) use \? hopefully good ncr chip \( e g \)
ab245 cleveland freenet edu \( sam latonia \) subject need phone number western digital \( esdi problem \) organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 5 nntp posting host slc10 ins cwru edu western digital 1 800 832 sam gosh think installed virus called ms dos6 n't copy floppy burn love windows crash
subject help monitor dying \? \? \? edwin ccu1 aukuni ac nz \( edwin ng \) organization university auckland , new zealand lines 25 hi recently svga monitor acting taking 3 minutes warm previously , first start pc see cmos messages \( ram test etc \) 've got wait display shows anything starts bright white flash happens system long time \( eg overnight \) couple hours turned , display works normal like anyone know causing \? warning give soon signs aging \( system 386sx 3 yrs old \) 've used systems work years never seen happen monitor yet 'd really appreciated help fellow netters offer thanks lot edwin edwin ng \( edwin ccu1 aukuni ac nz \) e e engineering , university auckland private bag , auckland , new zealand
smace nyx cs du edu \( scott mace \) subject ide vs scsi \( go \) x disclaimer nyx public access unix system run university denver denver community university neither control responsibility opinions users organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept lines 92 article 1993apr12 486 julian uwo ca wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca \( wayne smith \) writes article netcom com erc netcom com \( eric smith \) writes scsi better better future , lot minor advantages right ide cards cheaper right , obsolete years \( fact , ide cards cheap , might well free real cost ide drives \) scsi cards cost , worth almost got hernia laughing one 'll probably get one realize 100 vesa super local bus ultra high tech controller sucks anything , scsi \( pc \) obsolete killed vesa local luck pc bus ever seen happens hook busmaster controller vesa local bus actually slows system bus ide must real nice get shafted 20 100 bucks extra cost scsi drive , pay another 200 300 scsi controller maybe workstation n't understand vesa local bus ide vesa local bus killed \? whatever spec vlbus good much vga cards 'll laugh start crying much spent 2 little ide drives finding need space biggest advantage scsi right add different kinds devices , tapes , etc , easily , add bigger disks best cost effective hard disks available scsi need drives larger 500 meg oh yes , gotta 10 megs sec transfer rate speedy tape backups cd rom drives n't stick foot mouth make statement know nothing 'd rather wait second compared 5 minutes ide would take \( obviously exaggerated \) ever tried backup 2 gigs disk \? oh forgot ca n't ide one makes ide disks big basically , person ask one better , probably never see expensive benefits scsi guess probably bought 486sx also , arm waving scsi moot point user one two drives scsi two drives may fast , speed due onboard memory cache something duplicate caching ide controller \? scsi 2 fast , wide spec much bandwidth stupid vlbus ide crap stop thread , bandwidth want read scsi vs ide pay visit local usenet archive best scsi 2 fast , wide , etc clearly faster best ide drive response given based upon personal experience 1 2 drives ca n't judge completely different interfaces ide low cost descent performance scsi ability super high capacity expandibility speed neither one better cases n't belive said busmastering vlbus pick back issue pc week tested vlbus , eisa isa busmastering cards send flames dev null scott mace internet smace nyx cs du edu tenet edu
begolej csgrad cs vt edu \( james \) subject 16mb isa limit \? organization vpi su computer science department , blacksburg , va lines 13 reading pc magazine peripherals pc isa bus access 16mb memory also , video cards isa bus look memory aperture map memory wanted put 16mb memory pc , video card would n't anywhere map 's memory someone explain detail way around limit email response , summarize bo begolej csgrad cs vt edu james bo begolej csgrad cs vt edu
ab245 cleveland freenet edu \( sam latonia \) subject 17 monitors organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 10 nntp posting host slc10 ins cwru edu sony 1604s 17 monitor n't see lines across screen using non interlaced mode lines see hear 800x600x256 1024x768x256 modes switch back anything less would buy another sony ever price oh ya guess 15 viewing area n't impress one bit ! sam gosh think installed virus called ms dos6 n't copy floppy burn love windows crash
simon moscow uidaho edu \( mike simon \) subject please help identify old 3com ethernet card article moscow organization university idaho cs dept lines 21 nntp posting host leopard cs uidaho edu article emory mathcs emory edu , pd org \( poh lee , speedy \) writes old 3com ethernet card \( pc bus \) came apollo workstation i'm trying identify order use pc assembly number 00 rev 2 16 bit card , circa 1985 aui port well bnc coax connection selectable address bios , io , dma , irq locations via berg jumpers also appears intel 80186 processor board , presumably buffering ethernet chip appears intel , 48 pin dip package chip equivalent used cards \? also 68 pin plcc chip , called link please e mail n't think general interest least favorite last line post um , general interest prepare retire 22 , i'm looking ways recycle useful parts mike simon simon moscow uidaho edu
ccscola columbia ncr com \( dan moyer \) subject changing motherboards messing connectors nntp posting host ccscola organization ncr corp , e columbia , columbia , sc lines 40 article 93105 portland caps maine edu jozef portland caps maine edu writes changed motherboard lot trouble getting led , , turbo , , hdd , , , connectors correctly example turbo switch three wires motherboard connection two pins anyone know solution need connectors best way approach somewhat frustrating got work somehow turbo switch n't work put replaced motherboard system similar questions 2 cents worth speaker connector two wires going speaker speaker coil , 's bidirectional makes difference way attach turbo switch three wires control want turbo become active switch pushed switch think middle wire common use ohm meter figure wire connects common wire switch pushed , two wires connected switch place appropriate two wires turbo berg connector motherboard led 's \( turbo hd \) led 's uni directional depending way wires attached led light ami motherboard , turbo switch wires attached berg connector board , board power default turbo mode motherboard like led wires board led n't light , power , reverse connectors try work , attach turbo switch board hope helps dan moyer dan moyer columbiasc ncr com
organization penn state university greg psuvm psu edu subject soundblaster irq port settings distribution inet 1993apr16 walter cray com s106275 ee tut fi lines 12 article s106275 ee tut fi , s106275 ee tut fi \( anssi saari \) says 1993apr16 walter cray com huot cray com \( tom huot \) writes would also like explanation anyone explain sb pro lpt 1 share irq , please think 's simply dos n't use irq anything os 2 , ca n't share irq correct dos use irq 7 sb ca n't os 2 uses irq 7 printer
othello ucdavis edu \( \) subject info genoa 8500 vlb card low end vlb \? originator othello ucdavis edu organization university california , davis distribution usa lines 16 looking inexpensive vlb card , yet run across real reviews one cards local stores pushing genoa 8500 125 140 apparently uses cirrus logic acc chip , n't know one \( gd5426 \? \) one shops 've spoken claims card performs diamond stealth 24 vl orchid fahrenheit 1280 plus vl cards \( s3 86c805 based \) , ca n't true using gd5426 like price genoa 8500 , performance behind s3 cards , 'll pay extra 50 one info low end vlb cards would appreciated get replies via email , 'll post summary info anyone else interested thanks advance , brian \( ucdavis edu \)
mlipsie std com \( mike lipsie mpu \) subject splitting drives two make faster \? organization mitsubishi electric research laboratories , inc lines 33 article chi il us chi il us \( andrew \) writes guyd austin ibm com \( guy dawson \) writes partitions take disk space , 3 4 partition cost somewhere 4 8 meg hard disk space , luxury power , choice disk space go \? dos partition table fixed length every hard disk carries one lost 4 8mb \? remember right , partition table allocated entire cylinder find much takes , need calculate heads sectors 512 also , create extended partition , second logical drives think original respondent \( guy dawson \? \) refering something much elementary every partition \( whether entire disk \) two initial directory small disk \( 50 meg less \) , would recommend remain single partition unless consideration large disk \( greater 200 meg \) , multiple partitions make sense mike lipsie \( work \) mlipsie ca com mitsubishi electronic research laboratory \( home \) mikel uucp
swood vela acs oakland edu \( scott wood \) subject western digital hd info needed organization oakland university , rochester , michigan , u lines 27 nntp posting host vela acs oakland edu cs3sd3ae maccs mcmaster ca \( holly ks \) writes western digital also three sets pins back using hard drive well settings jumpers written right circuit board wd drive sl \? \? well , figured jumpers go quite different problem like would n't know drives working , c system formatted hardware installed problem , boot sequence , computer want pass looking system drive goes fine bios seems configured necessary drive tests work , thing comes back around drive disk present , spins insert disk drive system however , works fine boots \( ie installed software \) additional help welcome swood hunting michigan \? n't despair closed season , , weasel , red squirrel , , , feral , english , ground squirrel anyway trout season opens last saturday month
ab245 cleveland freenet edu \( sam latonia \) subject help monitor dying \? \? \? organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 5 nntp posting host slc10 ins cwru edu sounds like magnavox sick flyback way ! gosh think installed virus called ms dos6 n't copy floppy burn love windows crash
diku dk \( christian \) subject 17 monitors organization department computer science , u copenhagen lines 23 catone compstat wharton upenn edu \( tony catone \) writes article c5geh5 n1d utdallas edu goyal utdallas edu \( mohit k goyal \) writes oh yeah , read another newsgroup t560i uses high quality trinitron tube monitors \( sony 1604s example \) extra cost comes also high bandwidth comes , fantastic image , large image size , etc , etc 's also two annoying lines across screen \( one third , two thirds \) come annoying \? \? \? actually using one talking \? \) i'm sitting one right must say never notice ! yes , course see look , annoying \? way ! ! ! christian christian diku dk uts uni c dk sc student , university copenhagen , dept computer science human errors avoided one avoid use humans
wal hp com subject can't write 720 floppy organization hewlett packard waltham division reply wal hp com \( \) keywords write 720 lines 10 ok experts ! need answer quick 386 machine , 1 44 floppy unable write 720 disk machine claims disk write protected , note 'll read 720 's problem please e mail post
hertz njit edu \( ken nakata cis \) subject difference vlb isa eisa organization new jersey institute technology , newark , n j lines 17 nntp posting host hertz njit edu article toppoint de toppoint de \( joerg \) writes better oss \( os 2 ix \) able handle 16mb dram , use eisa bus someone experience vlb \? \? think scsi vlb busmaster problem 16bit floppy dma controller , unable reach 16mb n't think fd problem since fd much hd , overhead double buffering n't matter ken nakata apologize incorrect , rude , impolite expressions mail post intended please consider english second language n't full understanding certain words phrase thank ken nakata , cis student , njit
ren ccwf cc utexas edu \( ren \) subject number chip \? organization university texas austin , austin tx lines 11 distribution usa reply ren ccwf cc utexas edu \( ren \) nntp posting host flubber cc utexas edu originator ren flubber cc utexas edu one tell prong basic chip number 20 \? realize chunk chip missing one orient correctly using hole guide , count chip find 20 \? please help ren internet ren ccwf cc utexas edu crazy mad ! ! !
passman world std com \( shirley l passman \) subject help docs motherboard organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 1
satam ernet \( g satam \) subject pc scanners organization usr rts satam organization lines 30 hello , looking good scanners \( gray scale , color \) connected ibm pc compatibles also , automatic tray feeding must somebody point good scanners \? things one look purchasing scanner \? want hand held scanners preliminary requirements 1 75 300 400 dpi 2 dithering half \( various patterns \) 3 drivers dos windows 4 standard file formats \( \? \) 5 automatic feed 6 anything \? comparative byte pc mag \? issue \? please e mail 'll satam satam ernet g satam satam ernet scientist , network division national center software technology , , bombay 400 tel 91 22 620 fax 91 22 621
ns1 cc lehigh edu \( donald \) subject original ibm pc specs organization lehigh university lines 27 article dutiws twi tudelft nl , dutiws twi tudelft nl \( r v \) writes article 1993apr9 3200 ucbeh san uc edu ucbeh san uc edu wr ites hard drive xt type controller added , recommend trying full height 5 1 4 hard drive , run trouble 63 5w supply spool big heavy platters one way get system going one floppy drive one hard disk 63 watt power supply first disconnect power floppy drive turn pc , notice hard drive real difficult time getting speed , manages booting finished , plug floppy drive , work \( ok know user friendly , maybe better buying 486 66 300 watt power supply something like \) newer drive , less problem old ten fifteen meg full heights power hogs , twenty units set running flawlessly half height drives hard cards ns1 cc lehigh edu \( \)
jim n5ial mythical com \( jim graham \) subject possible faq question uart keywords 16550 organization , \? \? \? must joking lines 48 thought 'd post well e mail , case anyone else interested info article 1993apr15 henson cc wwu edu henson cc wwu edu \( dan jordan \) writes hello , question could someone e mail names manufactures 16550 uarts seen refered number , however would like find technical manual ics find technical specs uarts would appreciated 16450 well 16550 however one suggest go direct original \( preferred best quality \) source , would \( least , \) chips national semiconductor reach 1 800 272 longer package data sheets book , got mine , get individual sets data sheets want , minimum , following \) 2 sets data sheets \) \) \) 2 application notes \( yes , get ! \) \) 491 uart design application considerations \) 493 comparison , series uarts application notes listed proven least valuable data sheets \( , actually \) 491 , particular , exceptionally well written application note goes detail 16550 , best take advantage btw , send free , long n't abuse later , jim include std disclaimer h 73 de n5ial \( 4 \) internet jim n5ial mythical com j graham ieee org icbm 30 23n 86 32w amateur radio n5ial w4zbb \( ft walton beach , fl \) amtor selcal nial e mail information kamterm \( host mode kantronics tncs \)
shaw feanor xel com \( greg shaw \) subject ide vs scsi organization xel communications , inc x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 106 wayne smith \( wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca \) wrote article dns1 nmsu edu bgrubb dante nmsu edu \( grubb \) writes point view , scsi advantage comes multi tasking \? data data , could anywhere drive scsi find faster \? get drive computer faster \? better cache system \? thought scsi good managing data bus multiple devices attached talking single drive , explain scsi inherently faster managing data hard drive ide integrated device electronics currently common standard , mainly used medium sized drives one hard drive asynchronous transfer 5mb max n't start spec sheet isa bus first \? quote scsi specs till 're blue face , exceed isa bus capability , 's point \? said isa necessary \? eisa vlb interfaces worth investing thousands dollars \( e g new pc 's worth money \) says ide limited 5 megs sec \? vlb ide \? anyone know perform \? n't read carefully vlb ide uses connection mechanism standard ide transfer rate limited ide , whether 's interfaced isa , eisa vlb matters lowest setting scsi 2 interface asynchronous scsi 1 mode averages put maximum ide asynchronous mode full scsi 2 mode blows poor ide window , street , garbage implimented system \? mine , one thing scsi blows ide water , hands ide better throughput , n't used workstations file servers \? problem becomes drive keep put rates bottleneck cost scsi 2 comes interface drive use scsi 2 put given original question \( scsi used single hard drive controller \) , necessary get scsi drive least 5 , maybe 10 megs sec scsi choice make sence \? 200 400 meg 5 megs sec scsi drive cost \? , 's nice thing multitasking os , scsi use drives 've got unix loaded one pcs \( along \) os use one two ide drives one time 's pretty ugly bought quantum 240 mac home paid 369 n't seen ide drives cheaper original cga cart back '84 300 think original ega card \( pga \? \) 800 scsi stood relatively alone coming price , mainly 're talking pc 's sun 's sparc sgi \( name favorite unix workstation \) , millions pc buying decisions years , scsi plenty time come price , actually , 're talking scsi expensive simply nobody common interface pc common \( read easily implemented \) method adding scsi pc \( like sun mac \) , 'd find scsi connection medium choice wo n't argue scsi standard makes good , well implimented data highway , still want know intrinsically better \( ide , isa bus \) comes multi tasking os 's managing data single scsi hard drive single drive , scsi expensive , bought pc expandibility , , 'd want add drives whatever following find scsi intrinsically better ide \( partial \? \) list 1 add many different types devices access concurrently 2 scsi device works many different machines \( mac pc home moving hard drives nice scsi hook away go \) 3 scsi devices work together better ide devices instance , recently , added older connor 100 meg ide maxtor 212 meg ide connor must setup slave work way scsi , set address , check termination , plug , away goes 4 problem ide 's mutual exclusion notice time takes switch accessing drive c drive quite long compared time takes switch drive c scsi system multitasking os , noticable , many things going one neat thing 've noticed lately \( fringe benefit \) ability add older \( almost dead \) drives storage scsi system little problem 've got bunch almost dead 20 meg drives 've added pc 've got interface full , , allow 4 20 meg drives , 1 240 meg drive , 1 tape drive , 1 105 meg drive card simply put , scsi ide mysterious jumpers figure greg ca n't go nature , , greg shaw go nature , 's part nature shaw feanor xel com love rockets uunet ! csn ! xel com ! shaw
shaw feanor xel com \( greg shaw \) subject ide vs scsi organization xel communications , inc x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 39 grubb \( bgrubb dante nmsu edu \) wrote wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca \( wayne smith \) writes 200 400 meg 5 megs sec scsi drive cost \? since quadra mac able deal 5mb hard drives start idea mac following external 20mb 299 15 mb 379 7 3 mb 80mb 449 5 63 mb 120mb 569 639 4 75 5 33 mb 210mb 979 1029 4 67 4 90 mb 1499 1549 4 68 4 84 mb 1999 2119 \( 3 92 4 31 mb etc thought might want latest prices macweek 4 12 93 meg int ext 20m could n't find one available 42m 159 219 199 269 127 279 349 170 299 359 quantum , low profile \( 1 \) 3 5 drives 240 369 449 525 899 979 1499 1569 last three quantum 1 2 height 3 5 drives bunch stuff deleted scsi came high end computer world multitasking os standard part hear , hear ca n't go nature , , greg shaw go nature , 's part nature shaw feanor xel com love rockets uunet ! csn ! xel com ! shaw
subject ide mfm machine \? \? lynn vax1 mankato msus edu organization mankato state university lines 16 anyone help , would greatly appreciate christmas , built computer used parts father law disk drive installed seagate 251 1 mfm anyway , would like put another hd system want buy another mfm , reason used mfm first place free would need special ide hd controller \? also , need special ide controller , purchase one , much \? please send responses lynn vax1 mankato msus edu thanks advance , stan
csa bu edu \( thor \) subject maxtor drive geometry jumpers distribution usa organization computer science department , boston university , boston , , usa lines 1
com subject help ! ! gateway freezes organization electro scientific industries , portland lines 25 help ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! computer gateway freezing gateway tech support could n't help want specifics freezes ! anyway , keyboard left idle dos 15 minutes , type command line , soon hit return , computer locks happen almost every time , whether 've booted , reset , finished using dos program everything works fine n't let sit windows different story let machine sit windows 15 minutes , freeze however , get frequent application errors kick application unexpectedly , losing work n't know hardware software problem help diagnosis things try , would greatly appreciated p run \( except smartdrive \) diagnostics says everything good system 486sx 33 15 crystalscan gateway monitor vlb ati ultra pro \( using mach32 driver build 55 \) winchester 170mb hd microsoft mouse thanks , el
subject conner info , please michael se \( michael thurbin \) organization 1 , 352 37 , sweden lines 14 conner disk model \( 200mb \? \? \) info thing know normally used compaq machines please , send information switch settings , geometry looks like normal ide disk possible use standard ide controller \? \? michael michael thurbin 1 phone 46 \( 0 \) 352 37 fax 46 \( 0 \) sweden
subject looking replacement jvc disk michael se \( michael thurbin \) organization 1 , 352 37 , sweden lines 22 hi ! got hold old zenith 286 laptop model 183 45 hard disk dead rest seems work took zenith apart found strange disk wich try replace disk marked jvc , model 1 anyone specs disk suggestion find cheap replacement thanks help michael michael thurbin \( michael se \) michael thurbin 1 phone 46 \( 0 \) 352 37 fax 46 \( 0 \) sweden
lance hartmann austin ibm com \( lance hartmann \) subject s3 video card different address distribution usa organization ibm , austin keywords s3 video diamond addressing lines 19 article umcc umcc umich edu jon umcc umcc umich edu \( jon \) writes 'd like add second s3 based video card system anyone know company sells card coexist another one \? really need color text one monitor fast color graphics probably configurable address would 's worth \( n't confirmed \) , diamond tech rep told s3 based video cards use port addresses true , appears cannot use one s3 card system lance hartmann \( lance hartmann austin ibm com ibmpa awdpa ibm com \) yes , ' ' \( percent sign \) network address statements , comments , opinions , etc herein reflect author shall misconstrued ibm anyone else matter
rsrodger wam umd edu \( yamanari \) subject \( complete pc \) question nntp posting host rac2 wam umd edu organization university maryland , college park lines 43 i'm trying transfer software two machines i'm real trouble intel 14 4k \( v32 v32bis \) works fine talk everything comes clear modem , machine , complete pc \( machines seperate houses , direct serial link impossible , copying much data disk pain easier turn machines hours go see movie , pirated software \) end trouble trying set dial connect fine 9600 baud try set comm , 38 4k , stupid thing connects , gives garbage \( connects 14 4k \) machine \( \) uart , 's problem seems stupid thing wants talk comm program 14 , even though take dialing instructions \( respond ok , etc commands \) n't comm program precisely 14 4k looked manual unclear know , n't trouble intel came ready connect way need initialize way particular \? also , 's using v 42bis v 42 \( mnp5 \) connecting \( e , 9600 , since tests zip far \) n't say ideas \? \( btw tried initialization string use modem , gives error one \) moscow grandfather taught literature gone trial confessing 50 gruesome sexual murders whose victims included children young eight events modern history , sunday mail , 19 apr 92
apoylis inode com subject faq cyrix 486dlc \? reply apoylis inode com distribution world organization inode bbs , nyc 's best usenet access \( 212 679 \) lines 9 faq cyrix 486dlc \? could anyone please repost email , missed \? thanks advance alexander , internet apoylis inode com fidonet 1 2603 106 blue wave qwk v2 12
wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca \( wayne smith \) subject ide vs scsi organization john p robarts research institute , london , ontario nntp posting host valve heart rri uwo ca lines 141 article feanor xel com shaw feanor xel com \( greg shaw \) writes n't start spec sheet isa bus first \? quote scsi specs till 're blue face , exceed isa bus capability , 's point \? said isa necessary \? eisa vlb interfaces worth investing thousands dollars \( e g new pc 's worth money \) n't complain \( maybe n't \) scsi expensive pc 's 've year two ago isa bus \( ie one buys scsi isa isa slow \) saying scsi isa bus automatic winner compared ide \? n't read carefully vlb ide uses connection mechanism standard ide transfer rate limited ide , whether 's interfaced isa , eisa vlb matters get different transfer rates ide change isa bus speed mine , one thing scsi blows ide water , hands ide better throughput , n't used workstations file servers \? ide variant old ibm mfm controller \( least 's looks software point view \) never meant encompassing standard implimented across different platforms argument ide \( ca n't \) transfer data ide drive least fast drive able provide data \? scsi versions ide drives able deliver higher sustained transfer rates scsi interface \( higher rpm platter , different arrangement heads , etc \? \) \? given original question \( scsi used single hard drive controller \) , necessary get scsi drive least 5 , maybe 10 megs sec scsi choice make sence \? 200 400 meg 5 megs sec scsi drive cost \? , 's nice thing multitasking os , scsi use drives 've got unix loaded one pcs \( along \) os use one two ide drives one time 's pretty ugly data going one drive another , scsi ability perform transfer without data go cpu main memory , yes , optimal way far know , ide ca n't cpu wants data drives \( data stored main memory \) saying scsi grab data drives time store transfer data main memory also time \? working 1 irq 1 dma channel isa \( whatever \) bus \? bought quantum 240 mac home paid 369 n't seen ide drives cheaper friend mine got maxtor 245 meg ide drive 320 \( 's 245 million bytes , 234 mega bytes \) basic 20 interface , gets close 1 meg sec transfer 286 20 figure include hundred scsi drivers \? , actually , 're talking scsi expensive simply nobody common interface pc common \( read easily implemented \) method adding scsi pc \( like sun mac \) , 'd find scsi connection medium choice 're saying scsi would default interface type , considering vast majority pc 's n't cd rom drives tape backups etc \? pc 's \( \) 1 hard drive run dos \? scsi hard drives cost lot mfm rll drives time \? \( common scsi drives 80 megs 4 10 years ago \? \) 's lot lack common interface card prevented scsi becoming connection medium choice wo n't argue scsi standard makes good , well implimented data highway , still want know intrinsically better \( ide , isa bus \) comes multi tasking os 's managing data single scsi hard drive single drive , scsi expensive point , faster \? get performance money people single hard drive system \( regardless os \) scsi choice really give performance ide \? , bought pc expandibility , , 'd want add drives whatever true , expandibility also start bus , means option cd rom drives tape backups run cards 1 add many different types devices access concurrently argument always held first time scsi buyer best reason many scsi devices first time scsi buyer eventually acquire \? make sense go scsi single hard drive system \? 2 scsi device works many different machines \( mac pc home moving hard drives nice scsi hook away go \) postings scsi ii specs , really sure pc apple scsi hard drives compatible \? even , data accessible either machine \( ie formatting file table differences \? \) really \? 3 scsi devices work together better ide devices instance , recently , added older connor 100 meg ide maxtor 212 meg ide connor must setup slave work way scsi , set address , check termination , plug , away goes c drive connor becomes logical drive dos really problem \? 4 problem ide 's mutual exclusion notice time takes switch accessing drive c drive quite long compared time takes switch drive c scsi system multitasking os , noticable , many things going two ide drives system temporary file transfers , never seen differences switching drives , ever seen differences transfering files drives drive one neat thing 've noticed lately \( fringe benefit \) ability add older \( almost dead \) drives storage scsi system little problem 've got bunch almost dead 20 meg drives 've added pc 've got interface full , , allow 4 20 meg drives , 1 240 meg drive , 1 tape drive , 1 105 meg drive card nice \( long power supply keep \) believe possibility 4 ide drives pc simply put , scsi ide mysterious jumpers figure mysterious \( expensive \) drivers figure \? least ide n't require drivers consume precious conventional \( dos \) memory
richard solomon ncr com \( richard solomon \) subject jumper settings omti esdi controller \? \? \? \? organization ncr microelectronics lines 12 subject says \) i'm looking jumper settings sms omti bus esdi controller card thanks advance , richard richard solomon ncr microelectronics drive richard solomon ncr com colorado springs , co ! uunet ! ! ncr mpd ! richard solomon \( 719 \) 573 3227
ivan umontreal ca \( ivan \) subject ide esdi summary make ide esdi controllers live together \? \? \? keywords hd , controller , ide , esdi , disks organization universite de montreal lines 57 hello , , net , last resort , 'll change job \) might faq \( e g mixing controllers \) n't seen sys 486 33 , ami bios , run mill multi card floppies ide controller clone ex jumpers affecting hd \( quantum prodrive lps \( 3 type 47 , , \) pb want bring \( 2nd hand , neat price \) maxtor xt \( , 15ms , bios type 1 , manages real geom , , \) western digital se1 esdi floppies \( jumpers set irq 14 15 , hw port addr 170 , bios addr , floppy format stuff \) goal wd esdi secondary controller disks simultaneously working able boot esdi would nice bonus expected ultimate goal room linux et al ex scheme mind boot ide \( hd floppy \) mount esdi root booting esdi , even hd , acceptable tried numerous \( ! ! \) combinations avail work alone , coexist hang ups ca n't access esdi ide , depending setup jumpers useful suggestions might tell bios setup two \( guess 2nd hd expected hang 1st \) need driver make work \? new bios chip cards \? buy another controller make hds happy \? ide cheaper esdi hard find rather costly i'm rich try around , soft preferred adapters sort hold soldering iron , change chip put jumper ! also useful bbs hot line western digital ftp archives relevant info expert stores toronto , ontario area \( would miracle ! n't seen really knowledgeable ppl \) hints inner workings system anything else helped similar situations \( prayers \) \) direct posted replies ok many thanks , cat ivan email ivan umontreal ca tel \( 416 \) 324 human computer interaction machine universite de montreal informatique et recherche
george ! james dsm ia us subject toshiba 3401b cd rom problems \? organization organization creative time wasting x newsreader rusnews v0 96 lines 21 beta wsu edu \( mark smith \) writes i'm thinking getting toshiba 3401 cd rom hooking scsi port media vision pro audio spectrum sound board anybody configuration \? , work \? anybody general toshiba 3401 cd rom drive , problems \? door opening , scratched disks , door closing \( getting stuck closing way \) , cd holder cd related problems one favorite cd rom drive far also nec 74 experience several drives \( various phillips drives \) 3401 faster nec , like door better \( nec needs 2 hands \) , xa handling \( nec needs booted go xa rom 3401 fly \) , seriously considering replacing nec another toshiba
jliukkon klaava helsinki fi \( juha matti liukkonen \) subject please help identify old 3com ethernet card organization university helsinki lines 29 simon moscow uidaho edu \( mike simon \) writes article emory mathcs emory edu , pd org \( poh lee , speedy \) writes old 3com ethernet card \( pc bus \) came apollo workstation i'm trying identify order use pc assembly number 00 rev 2 16 bit card , circa 1985 aui port well bnc coax connection selectable address bios , io , dma , irq locations via berg jumpers also appears intel 80186 processor board , presumably buffering ethernet chip appears intel , 48 pin dip package chip equivalent used cards \? also 68 pin plcc chip , called link got two similar sounding boards dirt cheap , numbers 4000 series , description fits otherwise 3com 's aka etherlink plus cards check ftp 3com com , drivers diagnostic programs 3com cards concluded card 505 ran diagnostic program succesfully \( passes flying colours \) \) anybody know packet drivers cards os 2 \? juha liukkonen , aka jliukkon cc helsinki fi university helsinki , dept lost souls trust , know i'm hammer
wayne amtower spacecoast org \( wayne summer \) subject ide vs scsi distribution world reply wayne amtower spacecoast newssoftware grn 1 16f \( 10 17 92 \) mike schwartz michael b smith organization wayne 's machine palm bay , florida lines 33 article 1993apr15 julian uwo ca wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca \( wayne smith \) writes wo n't argue scsi standard makes good , well implimented data highway , still want know intrinsically better \( ide , isa bus \) comes multi tasking os 's managing data single scsi hard drive following thread figured 'd throw two cents amiga zorro ii bus comparable isa bus \( 7 16 vs 8 33 mhz \) amiga pre multi tasking os since '85 operate 1 mb ram ! scsi used almost exclusively systems scsi controller transfers data dma allows cpu request data hard drive continue working controller gets data moves memory controller allows operate even better multiple devices true scsi tape units example , formatting tape , command issued controller bus released allow access devices bus greatly increases productivity , least , something else backing hard drive \) happens reading group long story , still use ide 486 except cdrom , thanks scsi , move machines , , scsi better standardized supported ibm clone machines , plan completely get rid ide wayne summer amiga simply best palm bay , fl us x wayne amtower spacecoast org quote week n't hate microsoft microsoft , though hate products lame found c ibm pc misc
car public btr com \( carlos car btr com \) subject toshiba 3401b cd rom problems \? organization btr unix bbs email hub info btr contact support btr com lines 14 nntp posting host public btr com keywords sound board cd rom toshiba article 1993apr16 serval net wsu edu beta wsu edu \( mark smith \) writes put good word something works well problems toshiba 3401 works well dos os 2 os 2 , n't need load special drivers installation detect toshiba drive done btw , 's also fast ! carlos email com strategies , inc car btr com isdn connectivity phone 415 903
storm cs mcgill ca \( marc \) subject ide vs scsi nntp posting host cs mcgill ca organization socs , mcgill university , montreal , canada lines 22 article wayne amtower spacecoast org wayne amtower spacecoast newssoftware grn 1 16f \( 10 17 92 \) mike schwartz michael b smith writes article 1993apr15 julian uwo ca wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca \( wayne smith \) writes wo n't argue scsi standard makes good , well implimented data highway , still want know intrinsically better \( ide , isa bus \) comes multi tasking os 's managing data single scsi hard drive following thread figured 'd throw two cents amiga zorro ii bus comparable isa bus \( 7 16 vs 8 33 mhz \) except fact 's superior every way isa bus amiga pre multi tasking os since '85 operate 1 mb ram ! scsi used almost exclusively systems except new systems ship ide controllers ! marc 'em
altair tymnet com \( jay dresser \) subject help ! olivetti floppy lines 13 nntp posting host altair trying connect olivetti 5 floppy drive second drive panasonic 286 machine seems sort talk \( gets spinning stepping \) gives disk ready error two jumpers \( seem work best open \) , 3 position dip switch , 8 position dip switch n't know set dip switches think may problem information , advice \( junk stupid thing \) would appreciated , thanks \( email reply preferred \) tymnet com
wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca \( wayne smith \) subject ide vs scsi organization john p robarts research institute , london , ontario nntp posting host valve heart rri uwo ca lines 34 article wayne amtower spacecoast org wayne amtower spacecoast newssoftware grn 1 16f \( 10 17 92 \) mike schwartz michael b smith writes still want know intrinsically better \( ide , isa bus \) comes multi tasking os 's managing data single scsi hard drive scsi controller transfers data dma allows cpu request data hard drive continue working controller gets data moves memory ide also uses dma techniques believe floppy controller also uses dma , boards also use dma dma big deal , nothing directly scsi example , formatting tape , command issued controller bus released allow access devices bus greatly increases productivity , least , something else backing hard drive \) happens reading group thank software dos brains , could format floppies etc something else hardware support , dos \( least \) wo n't , nothing scsi long story , still use ide 486 except cdrom , thanks scsi , move machines , , scsi better standardized supported ibm clone machines , plan completely get rid ide stick dos 'll wonder ca n't ask ca n't unix os 2 type os miraculous things ide harddrive \( single \) scsi hard drive
europa tomcat raleigh ibm com \( welch bryan \) subject pc junior usable \? nntp posting host tomcat raleigh ibm com organization ibm , research triangle park , north carolina lines 13 fiance pc junior wants upgrade full 386 anyone know could use monitor came new machine \? heard 's mcga ega , sure also , use cards , use drive controller , floppy , etc \? thanks help ! bryan bryan welch amateur radio n0sfg internet europa vnet ibm com \( best \) , bwelch scf nmsu edu everything perish save love music scots gaelic proverb disclaimer 's opinion everything
hku hk \( leung \) subject spirit ii modem nntp posting host hku hk organization university hong kong x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 22 hi world , want buy spirit ii 14400 data fax modem \( made u \) anyone heard using \? 's performance \? stable \? please give advice addition , heard news local distributor new ccitt rom \( distributor said new ccitt standard \) modem produced end year replaced old rom 28800 rom , spirit ii transfer data without hardware new true possible \? would telephone line really able transfer high speed \? please give advice last , anyone tell contact central dealer inc \? \( sure whether u \) please leave e mail thank much leung \( hong kong university \)
bitzm columbia dsu edu \( michael bitz \) subject buy pentium motherboard \? lines 13 organization dakota state university lines 13 anybody bought pentium motherboard \? buy , please send e mail thank advance pentium processors motherboards available general public yet intel released companies gateway dell testing , etc 'll mike bitz internet bitzm columbia dsu edu research development bitzm dsuvax dsu edu dakota state university bitnet s93020 sdnet bitnet
netcom com \( rick adams \) subject help 486 66 decision organization netcom online communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) distribution us lines 37 i'm buying new system week replace brain dead 286 , could use feedback couple systems i'm looking anyone familiar system looks interesting budget 486 66 vlb tower \( delivered \) offers vlb , 8mb , 200mb ide , mitsumi cd rom \( software bundle \) , media vision sound board , 14 ctx , 128k cache , usual drives , ports , os software since budget system , seems almost good true \( may mean good true , course \) among things , 've never seen review budget systems \( parent company , micro smart \) , motherboard using \( \) feedback would appreciated similar vein , second system i'm considering midwest micro 's elite vesa 486 66 tower diamond viper \( 2mb \) midwest micro 14 mi monitor one 've never seen reviewed anywhere i'm familiar firm product line idea quality would benefit well suggestions price range would appreciated greatest needs speed graphics capabilities email response would greatly appreciated thanks , purpose power rightfully exercised member civilized community , , prevent harm others good , either physical moral , sufficient warrant john stuart mill rick adams ais org bitnet anonymous users may send ap poly 491 rain com
bgrubb dante nmsu edu \( grubb \) subject ide vs scsi organization new mexico state university , las cruces , nm lines 59 distribution world nntp posting host dante nmsu edu wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca \( wayne smith \) writes bought quantum 240 mac home paid 369 n't seen ide drives cheaper friend mine got maxtor 245 meg ide drive 320 \( 's 245 million bytes , 234 mega bytes \) basic 20 interface , gets close 1 meg sec transfer 286 20 figure include hundred scsi drivers \? since mac uses scsi 1 hard drives yes figure includes hundred scsi drivers sloppy people dumb point , faster \? get performance money ok scsi spec list scsi 1 scsi 1 controler chip synchronous range indeed 0 5mb asynchronous range slower 0 3mb scsi 1 scsi 2 controller chip 4 6mb 10mb burst 8 bit note increase speed , mac quadra uses version scsi 1 exist pcs use set scsi 2 8 bit scsi 1 mode 4 6mb 10mb burst want scsi 2 n't want pay 16 bit 32 bit hardware mess scsi 2 software controllers usable scsi 1 devices close 8 bit scsi 2 speeds scsi 2 16 bit wide fast mode 8 12mb 20mb burst scsi 2 32 bit wide fast 15 20mb 40mb burst interfaces let dxb132 psuvm psu edu speak ide ranges 0 8 3mb synchronous asynchronous modes asynchronous much slower range 0 5mb esdi always 1 25mb \( although non standard versions \) one problem inconsitant use term articles people proper meaning set scsi interfaces composed scsi 1 scsi 2 look inconsitant use scsi quote \( comments \) pc magazine april 27 , 1993 29 although scsi twice fast esdi , asynchronous scsi 1 scsi 1 chip 20 faster ide asynchronous scsi 1 scsi 2 chip 8 bit scsi 2 read quote read asynchronous scsi 1 scsi 1 chip although asynchronous scsi 1 twice fast esdi , one third speed ide asynchronous scsi 1 scsi 2 chip 8 bit scsi 2 although scsi 1 scsi 2 chip 8 bit scsi 2 eight times fast esdi , 20 faster ide note eliminates scsi 1 drivers somewhat reasonable 16 bit 32 bit scsi 2 drivers 8 bit scsi 2 use scsi 1 drivers little speed \( mac quadra exactly \) continue thread state clearly scsi talking scsi 1 scsi 2 scsi scsi 1 scsi 2 make difference
dcoleman ccwf cc utexas edu \( daniel coleman \) subject pc junior usable \? organization university texas austin , austin , texas lines 20 nntp posting host flubber cc utexas edu article 1993apr17 raleigh ibm com europa tomcat raleigh ibm com \( welch bryan \) writes fiance pc junior wants upgrade full 386 anyone know could use monitor came new machine \? heard 's mcga ega , sure also , use cards , use drive controller , floppy , etc \? things 'll able salvage junior floppy drives monitor floppies 360k , monitor cga , need adaptor cable use junior use standard cards unless 're really strapped cash , junk thing buy new stuff dan daniel matthew coleman internet dcoleman ccwf cc utexas edu dcoleman utxvms cc utexas edu university texas austin decnet utxvms dcoleman electrical computer engineering bitnet dcoleman utxvms bitnet
wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca \( wayne smith \) subject ide vs scsi organization john p robarts research institute , london , ontario nntp posting host valve heart rri uwo ca lines 27 article dns1 nmsu edu bgrubb dante nmsu edu \( grubb \) writes wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca \( wayne smith \) writes since mac uses scsi 1 hard drives yes figure includes hundred scsi drivers sloppy people dumb group \? mac group ok scsi spec list spec list \? talking scsi pc , mac unix box talking isa bus , possibly eisa vlb isi n't comp scsi tell performance figures single scsi drive pc isa \( eisa vlb \) bus theoretical performance figures relevant group debate i'm sure platforms handle 40 megs sec scsi xyz , pc isi n't one continue thread state clearly scsi talking scsi 1 scsi 2 scsi scsi 1 scsi 2 make difference well maybe scsi design people act together maybe pc 's would built scsi ports
fraser sfu ca \( tim \) subject 25 00 network \? \? \? summary \? \? keywords network organization simon fraser university , burnaby , b c , canada lines 8 heard something called 25 00 network allows two pc 's networked joining serial ports someone know anything \? would greatly appreciate e mail ! thanks ! first etc bc ca wq
cats ucsc edu \( dan \) subject buslogic 542b questions organization university california santa cruz lines 42 nntp posting host ucsc edu article gx netcom com tiger netcom com \( tiger zhao \) writes goyal utdallas edu \( mohit k goyal \) writes anyone tell card works march os 2 2 1 beta \? believe , since buslogic cards proven reliable os 2 2 0 buslogic cards os 2 2 0 driver work march 2 1 beta support buslogic cards included os 2 2 0 longer wish install beta cd rom , need rem adaptec device drivers , nasty tendency crash buslogic cards os 2 attempts use \( thanks adaptec ! \) add buslogic drivers config sys cd rom boot disk , rem adaptec drivers install whole 1st half beta wo n't work ! ibm nicely copies adaptec drivers \( thanks ibm ! \) rem adaptec drivers reboot everything right order work things pretty smooth rest installation except os 2 try install adaptec scsi drivers end rem statements fun bt comes drivers costs adaptec cards come drivers dos drivers work great card easily configured work 8 different sets ports \( use multiple host adapters one machine \) get new card also able support 8 gb drives dos hope helps dan dan cats ucsc edu
server uwindsor ca \( robert \) subject data path width 16 32 bits speed less double \? organization university windsor , ontario , canada lines 5 evolution 80 x86 data path width doubled 8 16 t0 32 bits speed data processing increased rate question \? relationship data path width data processing speed \? thanks advance input robert
server uwindsor ca \( robert \) subject address \? organization university windsor , ontario , canada lines 4 address \? modules \? thanks advance info robert
rnichols cbnewsg cb att com \( robert k nichols \) subject search bad memory chips organization distribution na lines 29 article c cat uucp david c cat uucp \( dave \) writes came upon idea would like share everyone check bad memory chips 1 create boot disk emm386 himem sys ramdrive sys config autoexec bat 2 boot pc create ram drive large possible 3 use disk repair utility \( use ndd \) run ram drive , yes run , device driver 4 run 1000 passes , go quick 5 machine fails , bad memory chip 6 machine passes , conflict programs loading memory 's interesting idea , worst case data patterns developed test magnetic media totally different patterns used detect common faults memory chips bob nichols bell laboratories rnichols ihlpm ih att com
goyal utdallas edu \( mohit k goyal \) subject buslogic 542b questions nntp posting host utdallas edu organization univ texas dallas lines 12 beta support buslogic cards included os 2 2 0 longer \? rather disappointing wish install beta cd rom , need rem adaptec device drivers , nasty tendency crash buslogic cards os 2 attempts use \( thanks adaptec ! \) yep 's cause latest \( presumably future \) adaptec drivers look string adaptec something effect cards bios
jks4675 ritvax isc rit edu subject seagate ide jumper question nntp posting host vaxc isc rit edu reply jks4675 ritvax isc rit edu organization rochester institute technology since losers sold hard disk computer generous , need info set drive master slave help would greatly appreciated please reply via e mail incidentally , avoid purchasing computer acs , ny jeff four five electrons prefer holes mutual needs boycott sierra ignore anybody purports serious windows user support new makers hardware software buy canadian music quit smoking take running fm synthesis cga audio jks4675 ritvax isc rit edu
yuri atmos washington edu subject 100 simms 100 sipps 1mb needed organization university washington lines 24 nntp posting host windy atmos washington edu misc entrepreneurs , misc wanted , forsale , uw pc ibm , seattle forsale , uw forsale , misc forsale , misc forsale computers , misc forsale computers pc clone , misc forsale co , distribution world yuri atmos washington edu reply yuri atmos washington edu organization subject 100 simms 100 sipps 1mb needed keywords need 100 simms 100 sipps 1mb , price around 17 20 piece waiting offer yuri , ave ne seattle wa \( 206 \) 524 , 524 \( home \) \( 206 \) 685 \( work \) \( 206 \) 524 \( fax \) internet yuri atmos washington edu uucp uw beaver ! atmos washington edu ! yuri
bgrubb dante nmsu edu \( grubb \) subject ide vs scsi organization new mexico state university , las cruces , nm lines 108 distribution world nntp posting host dante nmsu edu wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca \( wayne smith \) write article dns1 nmsu edu bgrubb dante nmsu edu \( grubb \) writes wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca \( wayne smith \) writes since mac uses scsi 1 hard drives yes figure includes hundred scsi drivers sloppy people dumb group \? mac group nice delete responce item prompted whit bought quantum 240 mac home paid 369 n't seen ide drives cheaper responded friend mine got maxtor 245 meg ide drive 320 \( 's 245 million bytes , 234 mega bytes \) basic 20 interface , gets close 1 meg sec transfer 286 20 figure include hundred scsi drivers \? correctly pointed following since mac uses scsi 1 hard drives yes figure includes hundred scsi drivers sloppy people dumb said sloppy dumb mac giving maxtor 245 meg ide drive 320 example giving example give implied consent mac info included scsi discusion ok scsi spec list spec list \? talking scsi pc , mac unix box talking isa bus , possibly eisa vlb ok v e r l w l understand whether mac pc scsi 1 scsi 2 different asynchronous synchronous scsi 1 different speeds costs lumping together dumb sloppy take quote later example problem pc world spec list knew numbers coming article shows article correct scsi isi n't comp scsi way thread gone tell \) tell performance figures single scsi drive pc isa \( eisa vlb \) bus already gave keep deleting ! specs everybody added info scsi 1 scsi 1 controler chip asynchronous range 0 3mb synchronous range 0 5mb common pc world difference mainly software hardware scsi 1 scsi 2 controller chip also called scsi 2 \( 8 bit \) 4 6mb 10mb burst advertised scsi 2 byte 4 93 159 pc speeds mac , pc seen following either mac pc scsi 2 16 bit wide fast mode 8 12mb 20mb burst scsi 2 32 bit wide fast 15 20mb 40mb burst interfaces let dxb132 psuvm psu edu speak ide ranges 0 8 3mb asynchronous range 0 5mb byte 4 93 159 synchronous range 0 8 3mb esdi always 1 25mb \( although non standard versions \) wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca \( wayne smith \) writes theoretical performance figures relevant group debate i'm sure platforms handle 40 megs sec scsi xyz , pc isi n't one note also give average put scsi 2 holds true mac ibm pc clone correct hardware software since pc using theoretical performance figures cannot \? continue thread state clearly scsi talking scsi 1 scsi 2 scsi scsi 1 scsi 2 make difference well maybe scsi design people act together maybe pc 's would built scsi ports pc articles like following obvious problem scsi people report ! like look inconsitant use scsi quote \( comments \) although scsi twice fast esdi , asynchronous scsi 1 scsi 1 chip 20 faster ide asynchronous scsi 1 scsi 2 chip 8 bit scsi 2 pc magazine april 27 , 1993 29 article confused , scsi term mess inconsitant use interface mess scsi means set scsi interfaces composed scsi 1 scsi 2 1' people want use read quote read asynchronous scsi 1 scsi 1 chip although asynchronous scsi 1 twice fast esdi , one third speed ide asynchronous scsi 1 scsi 2 chip 8 bit scsi 2 although scsi 1 scsi 2 chip 8 bit scsi 2 eight times fast esdi , 20 faster ide note eliminates continue thread state clearly scsi talking scsi 1 scsi 2 scsi scsi 1 scsi 2 lumping everything scsi scsi 1 sloppy , wrong , dumb inconsitant scsi 1 scsi 2 usage also problem clean mess like svga several years ago everybody uncle slapped monitor scsi unlike svga years ago except
michael jester gun de \( michael gerhards \) distribution world subject help pc freezes ! x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 organization private coherent system lines 15 perry egelmeers \( perry win tue nl \) wrote cs cornell edu \( la \) writes problem machine freezes least 's thought , recently discovered machine works , keyboard freezes clock drops turbo \( 33mhz \) standard \( 16mhz \) mode perhaps hit \( control \) \? try q know n't explain clock rate drop problem company changed keyboard bios , everything went fine dealer told us boards series defect bios michael michael jester gun de michael gerhards preussenstrasse 59 germany 4040 neuss voice 49 2131 82238
michael jester gun de \( michael gerhards \) distribution world subject western digital hd info needed x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 organization private coherent system lines 12 holly ks \( cs3sd3ae maccs mcmaster ca \) wrote western digital also three sets pins back using another hard drive well settings jumpers written right circuit board wd drive sl \? \? \? \? jumper used , drive conner jumper set drive alone drive master sl drive slave michael michael jester gun de michael gerhards preussenstrasse 59 germany 4040 neuss voice 49 2131 82238
michael jester gun de \( michael gerhards \) distribution world subject com ports modem mouse conflict really \? x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 organization private coherent system lines 20 phil hunt \( phil howtek mv com \) wrote i'm kind new pc stuff machine 4 serial ports com 1 2 4 share irqs mean ca n't plug mouse com1 modem com3 expect work \? , os 's \( coherent , etc \) able drive one ports polled mode without using irq example , accessing modem , mouse wo n't work reboot , irq used modem answer , change irq 's com ports different \? , really matter irq set ports \? yes , change irq 's com3 4 , depends hardware com1 uses irq4 , com2 irq3 one \( irq7 \) , change com3 irq5 \( normally 2nd printer \) com4 , assign irq2 , free far know , irq used card 16bit access irq 's 8 michael michael jester gun de michael gerhards preussenstrasse 59 germany 4040 neuss voice 49 2131 82238
camelot bradley edu \( douglas \) subject isa bus pin question diamond speedstar 24x nntp posting host camelot bradley edu organization bradley university lines 33 today recieved warranty replacement diamond speedstar 24x card 've noticed changes mostly new jumper labeled \( card revision 5a \) detective work shown jumper simply connects disconnects line 64 pin part isa bus question simple people revision speedstar 24x , manual claim jumper \? anyone isa reference , function line \? related note ftp sites contain descriptive reference isa bus \? motherboard manual simple pin signal name chart , douglas douglas r camelot bradley edu cs major hall resident conveniently located bradley university illinois peoria
fir canberra edu au \( \) subject int15h joysticks slow organization info sci eng , university canberra , australia lines 89 names nerdc ufl edu lioness oak circa ufl edu writes i'm using int15h read joystick , hideously slow something like 90 cpu time spent reading joystick , program nothing printf \( \) \( \) read print reason joystick stuff take 90 time even efficient problem lot programs trap int15h \( like smartdrv \) slow hell interface read joystick port reasonably safe fashion via polling \? n't platform specific \? truth int joystick reading slow read directly hardware port note exposes intermittent disturbance interrupts , may want read \( say \) twice row keep lower results n't turn interrupts , may prove detrimental health high speed comms devices example joy c example read pc joystick port polling hardware port directly uses \( \) \( \) byte port access timeout count 0' counts zero sample reads one port \( presented b comments \) read merging two , time either joystick connected need optimize routine since runs long joystick circuitry needs written \( canberra edu au \) include stdio h include stdlib h include h extern int \( int x , int , int b1 , int b2 \) define define 0x01 joystick b use define joystick b use define \( \) define joystick b use define 0x20 joystick b use int returns 0 ok \( int x , int , int b1 , int b2 \) register int count register char temp , joy temp \( char \) count 0 \( , 0 \) set trigger temp \( joy \( char \) \( \) \) \( temp \) x count \( temp \) count \( count \( \( temp joy \) \) \) b1 ! \( joy \) b2 ! \( joy \) return \( ! count \) main \( \) demonstration int main \( \) int rc , x , , b1 , b2 printf \( hit key exit n \) \( ! \( \) \) rc \( x , , b1 , b2 \) printf \( r 3d 3d , rc , x , , b1 , b2 \)
ssa unity ncsu edu \( alavi \) subject looking large mono color vga monitor organization nc state university lines 12 looking monitor 17 larger could 8514 card \( 70 \) guess would 19 mono \( later becuase lower price \) please email brand , model , condition asking price \( please include message reference \) alavi ssa unity ncsu edu \( 919 \) 467 7909 \( h \) \( 919 \) 515 8063 \( w \)
cleveland freenet edu \( gerard pinzone \) subject mitsumi cd rom drivers fix qemm organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 14 reply cleveland freenet edu \( gerard pinzone \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu let faithful mitsumi cd rom owners ever notice qemm ca n't load cd rom driver high \? ai n't bitch \? well , call quarterdeck 's bbs get hold new drivers loaded high sorry , n't \( tested seem work great ! small nose , loose girls , nipples , \( \) curls ! gerard pinzone \) \( poly edu \( v \) join wehrmacht ! kill cm !
cleveland freenet edu \( gerard pinzone \) subject cd good \? organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 12 reply cleveland freenet edu \( gerard pinzone \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu anybody use cd \? good say \? hate waiting around cd finish loading next level wc much memory eat \? small nose , loose girls , nipples , \( \) curls ! gerard pinzone \) \( poly edu \( v \) join wehrmacht ! kill cm !
astro ocis temple edu \( \) subject leading edge computer buy \? organization temple university lines 46 nntp posting host astro ocis temple edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 saw following computer store wanted know good computer someone see something wrong also would like switch motherboard later computer becomes slow anyone know possible leading edge computer , difficult find motherboard fit computer help greatly appreciated leading edge model intel 486sx 25 mhz cpu supports intel overdrive clock doubling processors \( \? \) upgradable 486dx2 66 4 mb ram upgradable 32 mb 8 kb internal cache 1 2 mb 5 1 4 1 44 mb 3 5 disk drives 213 mb hard drive 1024 x 768 vga video resolution 1 mb video ram 256 colors 6 available 16 bit isa expansion slots one local bus socket \( 16 bit isa compatible \) 4 5 25 drive bays , 3 external one 25 pin centronics type parallel port 2 rs serial ports \( 9 25 pin \) one 15 pin analog video connector one ps 2 compatible mouse port 200 watt power supply 101 key keyboard mouse included software includes windows 3 1 , dos 5 0 , microsoft works windows store wants 1200 \( without monitor \) good price \? thanks ! bell temple university philly , pa e mail address astro ocis temple edu prodigy 're part solution 're part precipitate steven wright
lioness maple circa ufl edu subject adaptec 1542b problems organization center instructional research computing activities lines 25 reply lioness ufcc ufl edu nntp posting host maple circa ufl edu okay , configuration 80486 33 gateway micronics isa 12mb ram ide hd \( drive c \) st3144a ide hd \( drive \) adaptec scsi 1542b controller , scsi bios enabled seagate 80mb scsi drive , boot get adaptec bios message , says something like drive c installed drive installed adaptec scsi bios installed ! ca n't get seagate drive go setup , remove entry drive , boom , access seagate way get two ide drives seagate time \? aspi4dos sys , hangs system brian
rpao mts mivj ca us \( roger c pao \) subject booting b drive organization software lines 34 glang slee01 srl ford com \( gordon lang \) writes david weisberger \( djweisbe unix amherst edu \) wrote 5 1 4 drive drive make system boot 3 1 2 b drive \? \( optimally , computer would able boot either b , checking order bootable disk switch cables around simply switch drives ca n't boot 5 1 4 disks , 's ok also , boot b wo n't trick \) thanks , issue plague us months gateway finally got tired permanently drives reason n't first place several bootable 5 1 4 's 5 1 4 based install disks expected drive order new software \( upgrades \) 3 1 2 number stupid install programs ca n't handle alternate drive declining time ones upgraded bootable 5 1 4 's cut 3 1 2 replacements switching drives option , might able wire drive switch computer chasis n't tried think would work long wired carefully use relay \( radio shack \) instead huge switch way , relay breaks , drives still work works fine , may still need change cmos drive switch work correctly programs roger c pao , ! mts ! rpao , rpao mts mivj ca us
rick cs ubc ca \( adam \) subject jumper settings hd organization computer science , university b c , vancouver , b c , canada lines 9 distribution world nntp posting host bowen rick cs ubc ca ok , 'll try one time one anyone information hard drives set jumpers \( \? \) master slave configurations gladly accept info , sitting room collecting dust waiting install huge applications \) thanks advance \( yes , regulary check ide harddisk spec posted \) adam rick cs ubc ca
umcc umcc umich edu \( charles \) subject leading edge computer buy \? organization umcc , ann arbor , mi lines 49 nntp posting host umcc umcc umich edu article 1993apr18 cronkite ocis temple edu astro ocis temple edu \( \) writes saw following computer store wanted know good computer someone see something wrong also would like stuff deleted leading edge model intel 486sx 25 mhz cpu supports intel overdrive clock doubling processors \( \? \) upgradable 486dx2 66 4 mb ram upgradable 32 mb 8 kb internal cache 1 2 mb 5 1 4 1 44 mb 3 5 disk drives 213 mb hard drive 1024 x 768 vga video resolution 1 mb video ram 256 colors 6 available 16 bit isa expansion slots one local bus socket \( 16 bit isa compatible \) 4 5 25 drive bays , 3 external one 25 pin centronics type parallel port 2 rs serial ports \( 9 25 pin \) one 15 pin analog video connector one ps 2 compatible mouse port 200 watt power supply 101 key keyboard mouse included software includes windows 3 1 , dos 5 0 , microsoft works windows store wants 1200 \( without monitor \) good price \? thanks ! recently bought leading edge 33 mini tower case everything works fine leading edge seems decent brand would tend say decent deal things might want wary l e computer back plane mounted motherboard ie motherboard card plugged people n't like configurations second thing whoever set computer factory n't really know installed windows video driver n't even take advantage svga card monitor look forward configuring system optimally anyone coat \? brain umcc ais org , would revered charles worshipped like would deserve \? ph ask want
vd seqeb gov au \( bruce powell \) subject esdi ide \? \? \? yes possible , organization south east queensland electricity board lines 27 article 1993apr16 monu6 cc monash edu au , eng monash edu au \( g chow \) writes article info win tue nl monty info win tue nl \( guido \) writes hi , possible use esdi controller hdd together ide harddisk controller one isa system \? 've read stuff secondary controllers trick work \? thanx advance , guido monty win tue nl question guido possible use esdi drive master ide drive slave \? say use rll master ide slave , upgraded machine 200mb ide \( custom controller ci 1010 extended ide controller \) maintaining rll 'd master drive trick controller supports 4 ide drives existing controllers \( mfm , rll , esdi , scsi \) according documentation work esdi , assure works rll bruce powell email vd seqeb gov au
glang slee01 srl ford com \( gordon lang \) subject adaptec 1542b problems organization ford motor company research laboratory lines 40 nntp posting host slee01 srl ford com x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 lioness maple circa ufl edu wrote okay , configuration 80486 33 gateway micronics isa 12mb ram ide hd \( drive c \) st3144a ide hd \( drive \) adaptec scsi 1542b controller , scsi bios enabled seagate 80mb scsi drive , boot get adaptec bios message , says something like drive c installed drive installed adaptec scsi bios installed ! ca n't get seagate drive go setup , remove entry drive , boom , access seagate way get two ide drives seagate time \? aspi4dos sys , hangs system brian simple answer memory serves scsi bios work first second drive built drives e g ide installed first scsi bios runs try install next drive already two drives , solution simple use aspi4dos device driver disable scsi bios \( useless case \) works like champ ! seen similar situation good luck gordon lang
athena mit edu \( daniel j \) subject 20 21 grayscale displays organization massachusetts institute technology lines 14 nntp posting host marinara mit edu quick look computer shopper gave following companies sell 20 monochrome monitors less 2000 \( pc ps 2 compatible \) cornerstone technology , digital technology , hardware fits , ibm , , image systems , nanao , radius , ran ger technologies , , samsung , sigma designs single scan monitors , useless pc users posted requests information newsgroups mostly fruitless , managed track two multisync monitors 17 21 range , one 20 one 21 still looking , post results get info looking group purchase well \) mit edu
columbia dsu edu \( michael \) subject tseng labs video card problem lines 7 organization dakota state university lines 7 tseng labs video card gives problems anything super vga mode v3 0 reports video page frame address error page frame 7 mean \( \) could fixed \? card says thanks
richard z3 fidonet org \( richard \) subject parallel port x ftn lines 25 anybody please help information use bi directional printer port successfully used one toshiba laptop enabling bit 0 port controlling bit 7 port direction data flow \( ie 0 output , 1 input \) code work desktop machine heard might use bit 5 port , however also work parallel port using one ide super cards running tape backup unit via parallel scsi converter pretty sure printer port bi directional information would greatly please post reply email internet rick edu au thanks richard origin custom programming bbs \( 3 632 341 \)
vg de \( \) subject ibm ps 1 vs teac fd distribution world organization \? organized \? lines 21 hello , already tried national news group without success tried replace friend 's original ibm floppy disk ps 1 pc normal teac drive already identified power supply pins 3 \( 5v \) 6 \( 12v \) , shorted pin 6 \( 5 25 3 5 switch \) inserted pullup resistors \( \) pins 8 , 26 , 28 , 30 , 34 computer n't complain missing fd , fd 's light stays time drive spins k insert disk , ca n't access teac works fine normal pc points missed \? thank de
cbnewsc cb att com \( loran n \) subject wanted isa mouse port high interrupt organization distribution na lines 13 sound card interrupt 5 , two serial ports \( one modem i4 , one miracle piano i3 \) printer port i7 , run low interrupts would like mouse port interrupt 10 , 11 , 12 \( ever interrupt ps 2 mouse port uses \) isa i486 computer called technical support microsoft , logitech , ati \( checked interrupts mouse port ati video cards use \) said interrupts possible cards ones lower 7 anyone know board isa bus allow mouse port \( even serial port \) high interrupts \? loran \( 708 \) 979 ihlpm att com
flipper unit \( stig \) subject can't write 720 floppy organization unit lines 31 article usenet ins cwru edu cleveland freenet edu \( andy nicola \) writes previous article , wal hp com \( \) says ok experts ! need answer quick 386 machine , 1 44 floppy unable write 720 disk machine claims disk write protected , note 'll read 720 's problem please e mail post disk hd type disk , e extra hole case opposite normal write protect hole , drive write disk punch similar hole whatever handy buy small device , square hole , 19 95 see back pages computer shopper magazine brief , make hole way writing ! andy nicola course able write dd disk without making holes stig
hhaldre stacken kth se \( heikki haldre \) subject \( q \) compaq configuration help ! ! organization utexas mail news gateway lines 19 nntp posting host cs utexas edu hi compaq owners friend mine compaq \( portable iii \) , lost manuals diskettes please help getting machine 's equipment definition \( cmos \) memory configuration right machine says bytes still incorrectly set seems , compaq bytes defined like 100 ibm compatible machines compaq , certainly diagnostics diskette needed ca n't reach quickly compaq dealers possible please email documentation , configuration software heikki haldre e mail hhaldre stacken kth se hhaldre park tartu ee
mark seltzer rose com \( mark seltzer \) subject x gated usenet rosemail gateway \( v1 70 \) organization rose media inc , toronto , ontario lines 12 anyone experience 486dx2 system would interested hear impressions , general thank mark winqwk 2 0b 108 mark seltzer , 28 , toronto , ont , canada rosemail 2 10 rosenet usenet gateway rose media 416 733 2285
andy bgsu edu \( justin \) subject wanted isa mouse port high interrupt organization bowling green state university b g , oh distribution na lines 32 cbnewsc cb att com \( loran n \) writes sound card interrupt 5 , two serial ports \( one modem i4 , one miracle piano i3 \) printer port i7 , run low interrupts would like mouse port interrupt 10 , 11 , 12 \( ever interrupt ps 2 mouse port uses \) isa i486 computer called technical support microsoft , logitech , ati \( checked interrupts mouse port ati video cards use \) said interrupts possible cards ones lower 7 anyone know board isa bus allow mouse port \( even serial port \) high interrupts \? try putting one irqs com ports onto irq2 hardware wrap irq2 irq9 class machines \( eg , anything high irqs \) i'm set right 've got com2 irq2 \( really irq9 address way software \) , com1 irq3 , soundblaster irq5 , lpt1 irq7 , ati port one interrupts works great need even , 's text file floating around somewhere details hack serial card \( probably others \) work higher irqs basically involves cutting trace low irq running wire high irq pin 16bit expansion bus best put modem 's com port onto irq2 9 first irq serviced system , giving modem better response especially handy like os 2 i'm running problems justin andy bgsu edu
toppoint de \( joerg \) subject 16mb isa limit distribution world organization lines 14 rpao mts mivj ca us writes article 681 mts mivj ca us marka ssd csd harris com \( mark ashley \) writes writer claims occur systems 16mb limit part n't understand ram right motherboard cpu problems talking ram anybody explain \? floppy served dma motherboard , original dma controller ca n't reach first 16mb \( address space isa bus \) joerg
skcgoh tartarus uwa edu au \( shaw goh \) subject 1 44mb f wanted organization university western australia lines 2 nntp posting host tartarus uwa edu au x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 subject says please email soon skcgoh tartarus uwa edu au
titan ucs umass edu \( david todd \) subject swap boot drive 486 organization university massachusetts , amherst lines 11 reply david todd psych umass edu nntp posting host titan ucs umass edu 486 machine 3 5 drive 5 25 b drive want swap 3 5 drive \? tia david todd department psychology , university massachusetts , amherst , usa phone 413 545 david todd psych umass edu fax 413 545
prg nessie mcc ac uk \( pete green \) subject wanted advice comments building pc distribution uk organization manchester computing centre lines 14 next months intending build 386 486 pc system remote monitoring would welcome comments advice may choice motherboard , boards recommendations good companies selling would big help many thanks , peter green peter r green tel 44 61 200 fax 44 61 200 4019 janet prg uk ac mcc nessie internet prg nessie mcc ac uk include std disclaimers
hhaldre stacken kth se \( heikki haldre \) subject \( q \) conner hd specs organization utexas mail news gateway lines 6 nntp posting host cs utexas edu anybody send conner cp 321 harddisk specifications \? 612 cyl , 4 hd , intrested time values , precomp , etc heikki haldre internet hhaldre stacken kth se
subject hint 486 vlb isa eisa motherboard schauf iastate edu \( brian j schaufenbuel \) distribution usa organization iowa state university , ames , ia keywords 486 , motherboard lines 13 looking buying companion brand vlb isa eisa motherboards hint chipsets anybody experience board \( good bad \) \? information would helpful ! thanks brian schaufenbuel brian j schaufenbuel art one government sooner learns 3644 halsted draining money pockets ames , ia people especially college students adam smith
cleveland freenet edu \( andy j \) subject detect mouse hardware level \? organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 25 reply cleveland freenet edu \( andy j \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu , writting program checks computer configuration 's going run everytime computer boots campus network \( actually , already running , 's getting info want yet \) anyway , want check mouse already check mouse driver \( using code microsoft 's mouse book \) guarantee driver loaded program runs , ever load driver since interested hardware attached machine , detect mouse attached \? know done mouse driver thanks advance , andy andy wholly dead u wisconsin stevens point blow dead man 's embers cleveland freenet live flame start internet edu robert graves
richk grebyn com \( richard krehbiel \) subject ide vs scsi reply rocky ucdavis edu 's message thu , 15 apr 1993 03 02 20 gmt lines 26 organization grebyn timesharing , inc article ucdavis edu rocky ucdavis edu \( great ! \) writes anyone explain fairly simple terms , get os 2 , might need scsi controler rather ide performance suffer much \? 200mb drive \? n't tape drive cd rom \? help would appreciated richard randall hamlet ucdavis edu way multi tasking computer actually gives cpu power , overlap overlap , cpu continue think disk operations underway , whereas without overlap , cpu sits waiting disk operation finish disk operations take eternity , compared fast cpu , 've got multi tasking , want increase performance increasing amount overlapping one way dma bus mastering either make possible devices move data memory without interrupting cpu alternative cpu move data several scsi interface cards allow dma bus mastering ide , however , defined standard interface created ibm pc , requires cpu move data bytes , dma richard krehbiel richk grebyn com os 2 2 0 amigados 386 comes along
richk grebyn com \( richard krehbiel \) subject ide vs scsi reply wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca 's message thu , 15 apr 1993 23 55 09 gmt lines 38 organization grebyn timesharing , inc article 1993apr15 julian uwo ca wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca \( wayne smith \) writes article dns1 nmsu edu bgrubb dante nmsu edu \( grubb \) writes point view , scsi advantage comes multi tasking \? data data , could anywhere drive scsi find faster \? get drive computer faster \? better cache system \? thought scsi good managing data bus multiple devices attached talking single drive , explain scsi inherently faster managing data hard drive adaptec 1540 series use bus mastering means cpu n't sit waiting data bytes , go computing advanced multi tasking os , dos sits waits anyway ide integrated device electronics currently common standard , mainly used medium sized drives one hard drive asynchronous transfer 5mb max n't start spec sheet isa bus first \? quote scsi specs till 're blue face , exceed isa bus capability , 's point \? says ide limited 5 megs sec \? vlb ide \? anyone know perform \? n't start spec sheet isa bus first \? \) ide designed plug isa virtually essence , ide isa , ribbon cable therefore 's specs isa 8mhz clock , 16 bit width , 5mb sec 've concluded ide vl bus waste fast slot card 's job would slow vl bus transactions isa speed heck , 's isa slots 'll use one instead richard krehbiel richk grebyn com os 2 2 0 amigados 386 comes along
richk grebyn com \( richard krehbiel \) subject ide vs scsi reply marka hcx1 ssd csd harris com 's message 16 apr 1993 07 30 17 0400 lines 12 organization grebyn timesharing , inc hcx1 ssd csd harris com article hcx1 ssd csd harris com marka hcx1 ssd csd harris com \( mark ashley \) writes first , huge software packages files produce , ide may longer sufficient \( 510 mb limit \) 've seen listing seagate 1g ide hard drive second , \( rumor \) microsoft recognizes importance scsi support soon i'm sure 's dos , win , nt windows nt already supports scsi , variety adapters , disk , tape , cd rom os 2 2 0 richard krehbiel richk grebyn com os 2 2 0 amigados 386 comes along
richk grebyn com \( richard krehbiel \) subject ide vs scsi reply wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca 's message sat , 17 apr 1993 20 42 47 gmt lines 30 organization grebyn timesharing , inc article 1993apr17 julian uwo ca wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca \( wayne smith \) writes article wayne amtower spacecoast org wayne amtower spacecoast newssoftware grn 1 16f \( 10 17 92 \) mike schwartz michael b smith writes still want know intrinsically better \( ide , isa bus \) comes multi tasking os 's managing data single scsi hard drive scsi controller transfers data dma allows cpu request data hard drive continue working controller gets data moves memory ide also uses dma techniques believe floppy controller also uses dma , boards also use dma dma big deal , nothing directly scsi ide dma 's like te pc hard disk interface controller moves sector buffer memory controller card , cpu moves data buffer main memory 's needed ide n't work way , 's compatible heck , ide used dma , 'd hear kinds complaints isa bus systems 16m ram working ide drives 16m dma addressing limit isa bus , ide dma would trouble \( btw , dma enabling signals ide cable spec , last report heard never implemented , would require different kind ide adapter different drivers \) richard krehbiel richk grebyn com os 2 2 0 amigados 386 comes along
jon chopin udel edu \( jon deutsch \) subject nec printer question ! nntp posting host chopin udel edu organization university delaware state \? lines 14 picked second hand color option nec dot matrix printer alas , installation instructions , totally confused go ! remove print head \? seems almost fit , quite please info would appreciated ! x x jon chopin udel edu 2 cents , 'd pay dollar x x
yee nimios eng mcmaster ca \( paul yee \) subject booting b drive summary sorry , ca n't done ami bios nntp posting host nimios eng mcmaster ca organization communications research laboratory , mcmaster university lines 30 article khan0095 nova khan0095 nova gmi edu \( mohammad razi khan \) writes glang slee01 srl ford com \( gordon lang \) writes david weisberger \( djweisbe unix amherst edu \) wrote 5 1 4 drive drive make system boot 3 1 2 b drive \? intermediate reply suggesting cable switch deleted ami bios , poked around bios n't tried somewhere says boot c would assume could probably slip b \) n't tried b \) n't mess cmos unless know ! ! hate burst bubble cannot slip b particular ami bios setting setting allows set boot order floppy respect primary hd c , e , check first , c check c , gordon lang mohammad r khan khan0095 nova gmi edu july '93 , please send mail mkhan nyx cs du edu regards , paul yee yee nimios eng mcmaster ca
jks4675 ritvax isc rit edu subject conner 120 mb question nntp posting host vaxa isc rit edu reply jks4675 ritvax isc rit edu organization rochester institute technology need configure drive slave \? model please reply via e mail thanks ! ! jeff four five electrons prefer holes mutual needs boycott sierra ignore anybody purports serious windows user support new makers hardware software buy canadian music quit smoking take running fm synthesis cga audio jks4675 ritvax isc rit edu
yee nimios eng mcmaster ca \( paul yee \) subject perfect mag mx15f monitors \? nntp posting host nimios eng mcmaster ca organization communications research laboratory , mcmaster university lines 55 article 1993apr16 1017 bnr ca adcock bnr ca \( doug adcock \) writes 've following mag thread waiting mine arrive mail seems lot complaints minor alignment problems mx15f one article contained comment owner called factory told screen rotation within spec \( 1 4 \) figure \( 1 4 \) image rotation would seem little high nec 5fg specs call greater \( 0 12 \) well , monitor arrived last night , sure enough , noticable barrel distortion 's dramatic , especially noticable image n't fill entire screen fact worse right side n't help matters i'm trying find minor imperfections norm monitors perfect \? n't want send back get one even worse problem factory consider kind thing normal ship monitors less perfect alignment \? ca n't speak mag far nec concerned , adjusted factory spec leaving central usa distribution point \( \) eastern canadian market , 's key nec knows 15 adjustments sensitive shipping distances \( bumps , rough handling , \) therefore expect \( least theory \) require local distributor \( dealer \) adjusted local service centre \( bull hn information systems toronto \) sale correct probably way chance receiving perfect monitor \( definition perfect seems depend picky one , case quite \) netters living kind imperfections \? , one , willing accept considered monitor , two months direct contact nec , finally received satisfactorily adjusted monitor \( perfect , imho , major improvement dealer distributor trying convince normal \) short answer , n't accept imperfections normal premium one pays larger screen monitors , one right expect higher quality , 're persistent , 'll receive comments opinions mine bnr 's doug adcock adcock bnr ca bell northern research research triangle park , nc regards , paul yee yee nimios eng mcmaster ca
cdw dcs ed ac uk \( chris walton \) subject upgrading modem organization department computer science , edinburgh university lines 19 old type modem \( 's info apart fact black ! \) anyone info modem upgrading \? \? \? reply e mail please cdw dcs ed ac uk chris e mail cdw dcs ed ac uk c walton ed ph ed ac uk tel 031 667 \( weekends \) write 4 2 place , edinburgh , 's fourth law job fouled , anything done improve makes worse chris e mail cdw dcs ed ac uk c walton ed ph ed ac uk tel 031 667 \( weekends \) write 4 2 place , edinburgh ,
bgrubb dante nmsu edu \( grubb \) subject ide vs scsi organization new mexico state university , las cruces , nm lines 39 distribution world nntp posting host dante nmsu edu richk grebyn com \( richard krehbiel \) writes stuff connection ide ida 8mhz clock , 16 bit width , 5mb sec ide speed come ida 8 3mb sighted ide come \? scsi complex way industry uses talks three key differences scsi controller chip , port , software let us look scsi stand point scsi 1 asynchronous synchronous modes software scsi driver asynchronous slower synchronous mode 0 3mb vs 0 5mb synchronous speeds reached scsi 1 rewrite software driver case mac quadra scsi 2 8 bit main source confusion differs scsi 1 controler chip machines mac pcs called scsi 1' uses scsi 1 ports software drivers produce scsi 2 speeds scsi 1 even slower asynchronous mode average speed asynchronous scsi 1 mode 4 6mb 8mb see quadras higher end pcs synchronous mode allows higher burst rate 10 mb scsi 2 16 bit two versions wide fast wide scsi 2 requires two things 8 bit scsi 2 scsi 2 software driver wide scsi port machine external device fast scsi 2 also requires two things 8 bit scsi 2 scsi 2 driver software recieving devise support 16 bit fast scsi 2 speed 8 12mb 20mb burst scsi 2 32 bit also know wide fast scsi 8 bit scsi 2 requires scsi 2 driver software , wide scsi 2 port , recieving devices also 32 bit mode scsi 2 chip expected expencive speed 15 20mb 40mb bursts said simple seven versions scsi seperated software , controler chip , port software drops five versions scsi seperate hardware chip port
nsl doe carleton ca \( nelson shun liu \) subject conner info please keywords conner organization dept electronics , carleton university lines 11 looking information drive switch settings , geometry etc conner please reply via e mail many thanks advance ! nelson nsl doe carleton ca
dab6 po cwru edu \( douglas bell \) subject pentium ! organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 18 reply dab6 po cwru edu \( douglas bell \) nntp posting host slc12 ins cwru edu previous article , rrn po cwru edu \( robert r novitskey \) says pc er 's upcoming pentium systems compatible current simms vlb cards \? info would helpful would like know new hardware thanks bob well , depends motherboard implimentation i'm sure someone make vlb motherboard takes simms uses pentium processor i'm also sure motherboards wo n't
csv warwick ac uk \( mr \) subject beyond 640k , trident 8900 , lots 8 \) organization computing services , university warwick , uk lines 48 nntp posting host csv warwick ac uk keywords ram , trident , interrupts hi , enquiries pc 's compatibles general software others hardware \( probably wrong newsgroup everyone claims \) anyway 1 \) one happen board jumper details trident 8900 svga graphics card \( 1mb \) even dip switches end mine already works fine \( albeit slow \) blown monitor found switch controlled non facility i'm curious 8 dip switches card apparantly little use 2 \) secondly , anyone know commodore crazed design pc 40 motherboard respect ram \( ie 512 512 640 0k \) \? \? 3 \) anyone supply pin details expansion ports pc \( 8 16 bit \) even sample circuit cause irq button pressed \( yeah know piece cake i'm lazy 8 \) 4 \) software wise anyone care divulge tips accessing expanded ram pc \( program written turbo c \) instance , using \( \) \( \) return memory available base 640k regardless combinations emm386 etc etc want able use ram beyond 1mb boundary i'm certain whether new actually uses anyway 'll suspect 5 \) also half wit created dos \? \? \? \? \? \? follow , anyone comments use dos calls 0 0c within dos interrupt \? ie changing stack size entry use two articles 've read subject given conflicting views anyone views writing direct screen memory terms portability \? many thanks gotta go , bars closing soon 8 \) cheers ian
harter5255 iscsvax uni edu subject help hand scanners wanted organization university northern iowa lines 30 fellow netters , i'm market hand scanner however , n't know anyone one eye two choices scanner available wal mart 90 includes software provides 400 dpi 32 \( think \) ocr software available mail order 90 also \( gray artist windows \) scanner offers 256 \( according cad graphics \) 800 dpi available 169 mail order comes perceive ocr picture publisher le also looking genius hand scanner \( \) cad graphics basically scanner except resolution \( 400 dpi \) price \( 149 \) basically , would like recommendations buy heard logitech makes best manufactures scanners one best buy \? would 800 dpi really helpful \( output would better hp laserjet iii canon bj 200 300x300 \) \? leaning toward offers features middle terms prices buy \? hand scanner , please let know whether would recommend also , know another scanner within price range \( 225 \) would better deal , please e mail help would greatly appreciated kevin harter
eecs wsu edu \( hj lu \) subject booting b drive organization school eecs , washington state university lines 17 article 1993apr18 dcss mcmaster ca , yee nimios eng mcmaster ca \( paul yee \) writes article khan0095 nova khan0095 nova gmi edu \( mohammad razi khan \) writes glang slee01 srl ford com \( gordon lang \) writes david weisberger \( djweisbe unix amherst edu \) wrote 5 1 4 drive drive make system boot 3 1 2 b drive \? intermediate reply suggesting cable switch deleted heard boot b zip could exactly wanted without touching anything check archie h j
browning org \( charles w browning \) subject mitsubishi hard drive help ! ! ! organization national science center foundation summary mitsubishi hard drive help ! ! keywords hard disk lines 17 new mitsubishi hard drive \( rll mfm \) storage format suspected switch settings may moved movement drive one place another anyone switch settings drive j1 sw1 6 switches sw2 8 switches sw2 one selects drive number info drive , know number call configure , please , please let know email 977 cyl 5 heads think type 17 thanks advance ! chuck browning charles w browning browning org university ga browning moe coe uga edu , georgia eis calstate edu
rash access digex com \( wayne rash \) subject 17 monitors organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 50 nntp posting host access digex net rock concert net \( michael g support \) writes said nanao t560i best monitor get money also said mitsubishi diamond pro 17 next best choice superb picture quality monitor around 1070 anyone actually seen \? responsible choosing standard components company part review got viewsonic 7 , mitsubishi 17 , nanao picked f550i even though costs two choices best clarity text fuzzy viewsonic 7 worst , mitsubishi 17 much better nanao f550i blows water n't understand nanao much better since one would think mitsubishi 17 's trinitron tube would better imagine nanao t560i must incredible beter f550i michael g \( rock concert net \) light end tunnel may oncoming dragon one monitors reviewed june issue windows magazine mitsubishi also reviewed new nanao , f550iw , released last year may '92 issue windows , reviewed several monitors , including nanao t560i 's question nanao monitors best available year , last year difference ranking best windows ranking windows sources due mainly difference testing criteria scoring used different tests , scored differently 's nothing wrong mitsubishi , scored highly tests , points shy perfect incidentally , one things everyone 're reading reviews product , whether 's monitors mice , read criteria methodology carefully unless know product testing done , scores based , ca n't possibly know really mean seeing rank monitor differently windows sources meaningless without knowing ranking likewise , 's impossible tell whether monitor meet needs unless know testing , may apply likewise , may apply closely one review another ca n't always tell anything reading 300 words commentary write n't also understand scoring wayne rash
rash access digex com \( wayne rash \) subject 17 monitor rgb sync vga \? \? organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 21 distribution usa nntp posting host access digex net keywords rgb vga 17 monitor interlan com \( michael scanlon \) writes n't know obvious question , current batch windows accelerator cards \( diamond etc \) used drive monitor rgb horizontal vertical sync \( 5 bnc jacks altogether \) connectors back \? \? might able get ahold raster technologies 17 monitor \( \? \? \) cheap wondering possible connect via adapter \( rgb vga \? \? \) gateway , would need different drivers etc thanks mike scanlon please reply scanlon interlan com need monitor cable vga connector one end five bnc connectors bought one nanao bought nanao monitor use , also five bnc connectors check computer store sells good monitors quite companies use setup
athena mit edu \( donald yee \) subject tape backup question organization massachusetts institute technology lines 24 nntp posting host mit edu article 1993apr15 sol ctr columbia edu jerry msi com \( jerry \) writes hello folks ! archive \( internal qic 80 \) tape drive , pretty comparable colorado jumbo 250 since two floppy drives system , i'm using small card \( accelerated \) made archive attach tape drive third floppy device problem although dos based software works fine , norton central point backup programs windows fail unless switch machine non turbo speed \( i'm using 486dx 33 eisa \) since dos software works , ca n't hardware problem , \? anyone seen similar problems \? solutions \? thanks advance yeah sounds typical windows makes sorts extra demands hardware , therefore machine ca n't keep things ever notice floppies windows , everything else slows crawl \? imagine backup else running fights cpu time , sometimes backup program loses glad ca n't even run medium speed cp backup machine , supposedly scsi machine places extra demands data bus
mikey sgi com \( mike yang \) subject 17 monitors nntp posting host eukanuba wpd sgi com organization silicon graphics , inc lines 12 article access digex net rash access digex com \( wayne rash \) writes also reviewed new nanao , f550iw , released 's difference f550i new f550iw \? i'm buy gateway system going take f550i upgrade get f550iw instead \? mike yang silicon graphics , inc mikey sgi com 415 390 1786
dannyb panix com \( daniel burstein \) subject \( q \) conner hd specs organization panix public access unix , nyc lines 17 stacken kth se hhaldre stacken kth se \( heikki haldre \) writes anybody send conner cp 321 harddisk specifications \? 612 cyl , 4 hd , intrested time values , precomp , etc heikki haldre internet hhaldre stacken kth se conner peripherals 1 800 number touch tone voice response data bank giving info call 1 800 directory \( 1 800 555 1212 \) ask phone number conner peripherals , get need dannyb panix com usual disclaimers apply , whatever may
subject 's need kinda battery \? \? \? uceng uc edu \( george \) distribution usa organization university cincinnati lines 11 hello , i'm proud owner ibm without battery know hooks jumper , need info replace 's voltage \? suggestions replacement \? get one \? please respond uceng uc edu thanks , george
im14u2c camelot bradley edu \( joe zbiciak \) subject booting b drive nntp posting host camelot bradley edu organization happy usa lines 25 ns mts mivj ca us rpao mts mivj ca us \( roger c pao \) writes much discussion switching 5 25 3 5 drives removed another \( albeit strange \) option using program like 800 ii \( available via anonymous ftp many major sites \) , \( also available via anonymous ftp \) , allows format 5 disks 1 , 3 5 hd disks 1 2meg \( along many many formats ! \) diskcopy \( yes , broken messy dos diskcopy ! \) 5 25 disks onto 3 5 disks vice versa use techniques non dos self booting game disks old tandy 1000 , works another program named \( shareware available many major bbs 's \) also make weird format disks , provided 800 ii installed disks wo n't diskcopy properly readily 'd proper format least software solution hardware bios deficiency , eh \? joseph zbiciak im14u2c camelot bradley edu disclaimer believe , check head ! nuke whales !
im14u2c camelot bradley edu \( joe zbiciak \) subject rockwell chipset 14 4 's good \? nntp posting host camelot bradley edu organization bradley university lines 24 quick question regarding rockwell chipset relatively recently supports v 32 , v 32bis , v 42 , group iii fax , however , heard bugs chipset know someone zoom 14 4 modem uses chipset , n't problem 's word chipset \? rom bug specific specific brand using rockwell , rockwell chipset \? , rockwell chipset , chances buy one modems \( using rockwell chipset \) , \) bug affect , b \) rom change fix compensate bug \? please send responses via email joe zbiciak im14u2c bradley edu im14u2c camelot bradley edu joseph zbiciak im14u2c camelot bradley edu disclaimer believe , check head ! nuke whales !
server uwindsor ca \( \) subject shopping new nec \? monitor lines 9 well people , recomend non flat screen , hype , nonsense nec 3ds , plus , advantage one new flat screen tubes fragile break often ! heavy duty rugged set insist well proven reliable technologies ! jim
kepler unh edu \( gregory g greene \) subject ide vs scsi organization university new hampshire durham , nh lines 12 nntp posting host kepler unh edu ' first , huge software packages files ' produce , ide may longer sufficient \( 510 mb limit \) micropolis seems broken limit ide hd 's available greg greene kepler unh edu ' mark ashley disclaimer opinions harris' ' marka gcx1 ssd csd harris com ' lost los angelino
esd sgi com \( bob \) subject high performance vlb video card \? organization silicon graphics lines 33 article 1993apr16 spartan ac brocku ca , tmc spartan ac brocku ca \( tim ciceran \) writes pc magazine another review high end graphics accelerators around performance \( windows , dos , cad \) go ati graphics ultra pro 've done two reviews last three months card ranks editors choice reviews around performance seems ca n't beat pick issue pc mag \( april 13 \) check windows recent reviews shown p9000 cards significantly faster windows ati card vga recent reviews shown p9000 cards looked significantly slower vga ati card 1 2 speed , recall big question orchid v9000 card p9000 cards tested far vga orchid one know \( n't know ami \) uses vga reportedly faster would like know whether orchid card vga fast ati card , would appear formidable competitor \( advertised prices two cards \) someone group posted little back getting orchid v9000 card card arrived \? benchmarks look like \? also , ami p9000 based card real \? use vga \? speed \? bob
berlin de \( stefan \) subject adaptec \? distribution world organization 's host , berlin , germany lines 14 x newsreader version 3 02 wright lerc nasa gov \( ted wright \) writes adaptec rev b disk controller come hands documentation esdi controller \? mfm \? rll \? something else \? bios dated 1987 , help think esdi controller need help stefan stefan inet berlin de berlin germany 's
dhartung chinet chi il us \( dan hartung \) subject gateway telepath modem getting v 32bis summary get garbage matter settings try organization chinet public access unix distribution na lines 29 gateway telepath modem month actually , one would n't connect anything matter software used , got new one sent allows connect favorite news system zero problems i'm somewhat happier still cannot connect favorite dos bbs kind reliability success 1 10 calls good ! would hope fact one connect least one places means need adjust usually get fast stream garbage , modem response line dial window sometimes drop full screen mode first , get 2 3 screens garbage cases modem seems time connecting drops carrier using default settings \( f \) getting problem using settings gateway supplied copy \( c1 44 w0 \) getting problem \( refused help beyond , claiming must bbs something like work modem connects place fine , using factory settings microcom \) anyone ideas \? ! next waco update ohio prison update bosnia update russian update abortion update congressional update standoff news network news , standoff , day daniel hartung dhartung chinet chinet com ask rotaract
himb iniki soest hawaii edu \( liz camarra \) subject high performance vlb video card \? organization school ocean earth science technology lines 35 article zola esd sgi com esd sgi com \( bob \) writes someone group posted little back getting orchid v9000 card card arrived \? benchmarks look like \? one got text 320x200 \( vga mcga \) mode , almost identical based cards \( ati \) weird since orchid supposedly much faster \( told someone almost 16 kb \) , since vga chip covered orchid label , ca n't really tell sure uses chip , spec sheet comes board \( docs ! \) say 1 meg dram uses chip winmarks \( 3 11 \) 4 mil slower viper \( 34 vs 38 \) using standard palette btw anyone , i'm trying sell diamond viper \( 2 megs vram \) friend 300 , email interested \( i'm broke take \) also , ami p9000 based card real \? use vga \? speed \? think 's available limited idea vga chip uses though careful oem p9000 boards though , orchid got example readme file disk serve documentation , conflicts hell vlb controller card \( maybe 's motherboard , r 486 vlb \) stephen lau , elec engineering , univ hawaii using friend 's account waiting new grad account death fm synthesis ! go gus !
himb iniki soest hawaii edu \( liz camarra \) subject info p9000 board originator himb iniki organization school ocean earth science technology lines 10 one thing add , orchid board vesa bios able handle 1 meg dram board , viper however utilize 2 meg vram board support vesa modes , mil 1024x768x65536 dos stephen lau , elec engineering , univ hawaii n't account grad school starts \( autumn 93 \) death fm synthesis ! go gus !
rnichols cbnewsg cb att com \( robert k nichols \) subject need info ps 2 mouse port organization distribution na lines 11 would someone please email pinout ps 2 6 pin mini din mouse port \? i'm trying make adapter serial mouse , dealer knows adapter works mouse bought n't stock several different adapters , none make sense based information port \( connections reserved pins \) bob nichols bell laboratories rnichols ihlpm ih att com
gerardis cs mcgill ca \( gif emporium \) subject 17 monitors organization school computer science , mcgill university lines 27 article c5geh5 n1d utdallas edu goyal utdallas edu \( mohit k goyal \) writes oh yeah , read another newsgroup t560i uses high quality trinitron tube monitors \( sony 1604s example \) extra cost comes also high bandwidth comes , fantastic image , large image size , etc , etc agree image sharp gets sony tubes , however 17 monitors using tubes , 2 annoying black lines top bottom quarters tube , created due wires holding shadow mask , quite annoying thing making lean favor nec 5fg \( also available nec 5fge difference , accucolor \) experiences opinions people used nec 5fg would appreciated since want get one right exams done \( ie week \) tony tony gerardis mcgill university computer science prefered account sun relative way , gerardis cs mcgill ca 're older however also available shorter breath one day nyx cs du edu closer death floyd gerardis bitnet
westes netcom com \( estes \) subject quantum 240at cache working \? organization mail group x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 10 quantum lps 240at supposed 256k cache ide controller built card yet dos dir command system , disk always accessed \( hear mechanical movement heads \) happening \? strangely , even smartdrive installed , every dir command accesses disk somehow de activate cache \? happening two machines lps 240at drive estes internet westes netcom com
swartzjh rosevc rose hulman edu subject custom keys organization rose hulman institute technology lines 8 reply swartzjh rosevc rose hulman edu nntp posting host hydra rose hulman edu looking company make custom keys instance need key says help , main menu , etc going use instead f1 , f2 , f3 etc anyone point company also special keyboard , pop old keys pop new ones thanks help jeff swartz
himb iniki soest hawaii edu \( liz camarra \) subject 17 monitors organization school ocean earth science technology lines 20 article cs mcgill ca gerardis cs mcgill ca \( gif emporium \) writes stuff deleted thing making lean favor nec 5fg \( also available nec 5fge difference , accucolor \) experiences opinions people used lose accucolor , also give 1280x1024 non interlaced mode , wider 135 mhz bandwidth mac bnc inputs 5fg personally bothered two lines trinitron tube tony gerardis mcgill university computer science stephen lau , elec engineering , univ hawaii n't account grad school starts \( autumn 93 \) death fm synthesis ! go gus !
tdbear dvorak amd com \( thomas barrett \) subject rockwell chipset 14 4 's good \? organization advanced micro devices , inc austin , texas lines 28 article im14u2c camelot im14u2c camelot bradley edu \( joe zbiciak \) writes 's word chipset \? rom bug specific specific brand using rockwell , rockwell chipset \? assortment firmware problems , pretty much expected fax modem talking different fax modem may also revised new i'm pretty much oblivious current firmware problems , 'll get someone else however , tell stay clear board uses rockwell mpu \( opposed \) internal implementation mpu used speed buffering instead 16550 interface without 550 interface , number interrupts still thus may get dropped multitasking conditions \( like windows \) far know , speed buffering works ok external modems 550 used internal serial port board hope helps tom tom barrett \( tdbear \) , sr engineer tom barrett amd com v 512 462 amd ms 520 5900 e ben white austin , tx f 512 462 n't take take hold n't leave chance archer views may company origin
goyal utdallas edu \( mohit k goyal \) subject 17 monitors nntp posting host utdallas edu organization univ texas dallas lines 10 mitsubishi also reviewed new nanao , f550iw , released last year may '92 issue windows , reviewed specs monitor \? changed f550i \? know going new t560i soon \? \( \? \) thanks
tclark weeg uiowa edu \( terry clark \) subject cache micronics eisa vlb motherboard \? organization university iowa , iowa city , ia , usa lines 38 article 1993apr15 news cs indiana edu , mohammad al ansari ucs indiana edu \( clip \) process purchasing eisa vl bus 486 dx2 66 computer \( clip \) first ares use cache motherboard \( 's brand motherboard \) opti chip set , micron \( formerly edge technology \) use micronics eisa vlb motherboard \( clip \) would really appreciate input micron machine clear choice \? anyone know anything positive negative either company \? anyone ever heard cache motherboards \? go micron micronics motherboard \? etc thanks much advance information mohammad al ansari get back vendors , better yet board manufactures get info made norton indexes \( yeah know bms suck whats mother \? \) number slots , types , 32 bit \? ide scsi board \? easy upgrade ram , location pins overdrive \? oscilator kits \? 16550 uart \? 's bios \? might make feel better either system , must agree ares 7 days 24 hr tech 2 year warranty encouraging terry clark tclark uiowa edu want opinion n't pay enough opinion
bing zinc cchem berkeley edu \( bing ho \) subject know anything eisa 2 \? organization uc berkeley lines 11 distribution world nntp posting host zinc cchem berkeley edu read development eisa 2 time ago dismissed light intense interest vesa pci however , recently hear isa cannot address 16mb ram , limit many us hit soon recall eisa 2 support 64 bit transfer among enhancements standard developed \? bing ho bing zinc cchem berkeley edu university california berkeley
wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca \( wayne smith \) subject ide vs scsi organization john p robarts research institute , london , ontario nntp posting host valve heart rri uwo ca lines 35 article richk gozer grebyn com richk grebyn com \( richard krehbiel \) writes anyone explain fairly simple terms , get os 2 , might need scsi controler rather ide performance suffer much \? 200mb drive \? n't tape drive cd rom \? help would appreciated , 've got multi tasking , want increase performance increasing amount overlapping one way dma bus mastering either make possible devices move data memory without interrupting cpu alternative cpu move data several scsi interface cards allow dma bus mastering bus mastering isa bus \? ide , however , defined standard interface created ibm pc , requires cpu move data bytes , dma 're talking isa \( \) bus , 1 dma channel active one time , presumably transferring data single device even though least 7 devices scsi bus , explain 7 devices dma transfers single scsi card isa bus time also , i'm still trying track copy ibm 's reference book , pc technical manual \( page 2 93 \) \( fdd \) adapter buffered bus uses system board direct memory access \( dma \) record data transfers expect see something similar pc hdd adapter lowly low density original pc fdd card used dma pc hdd controller n't ! \? ! \? makes real sense
wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca \( wayne smith \) subject ide vs scsi organization john p robarts research institute , london , ontario nntp posting host valve heart rri uwo ca lines 15 article 1993apr18 grebyn com richk grebyn com \( richard krehbiel \) writes heck , ide used dma , 'd hear kinds complaints isa bus systems 16m ram working ide drives 16m dma addressing limit isa bus , ide dma would trouble would problems long os n't set dma transfer area 16 mb area \( dma controller probably ca n't programmed way anyways , probably isi n't problem \) besides , like said , fdd controller uses dma channel 2 n't yet believe hdd controllers \( , mfm , rll , etc \) n't also use dma
netcom com \( p h \) subject find comm ports irqs 3 4 organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 23 hamilton romulus ehs uiuc edu \( wayne hamilton \) writes friend mine recently got serial card 'll ask verify details , recall , paid 50 , 's made stb , 2 \( 4 \? \) ports , supports irqs \( 8 15 \) addition convention ones i'm sure last , trouble finding comm software would allow override standard irq assignments unfortunately lot software also find case majority software bad regard commercial software way many commercial packages poorly written programs ms dos crap , print command tsr locks system long periods time printer full instead trying every clock tick back comm software find success telix \( com3 5 works ok telix \) phil howard , netcom com , spell protection \? 1 \( 911 \) a1 right wing conservative capitalists separate money left wing liberal separate everything else ! !
alee mnemosyne cs du edu \( alec lee \) subject scan rate vs font size summary important \? organization university denver , dept math comp sci lines 10 past winter found spending ridiculous time front computer since eyes going , decided shell serious money upgrade 14 17 monitor i'm running 800x600 72 hz eyes grateful however , find using smaller font less eye strain anyone else kind experience \? thought small fonts culprit seems flicker real problem comments \? alec lee alee cs du edu
storm cs mcgill ca \( marc \) subject know anything eisa 2 \? nntp posting host cs mcgill ca organization socs , mcgill university , montreal , canada lines 22 article agate berkeley edu bing zinc cchem berkeley edu \( bing ho \) writes read development eisa 2 time ago dismissed light intense interest vesa pci however , recently hear isa cannot address 16mb ram , limit many us hit soon recall eisa 2 support 64 bit transfer among enhancements standard developed \? possibly , 's still going backwards compatible isa bus , 's going tripe current eisa implementation really 've seen , pci bus new 32bit 33mhz intelligent bus \( ie , bus controller takes care interrupts like , jumpers \) hopefully 'll get somewhere amiga zorro iii bus vl bus bit much hack liking ! marc 'em
chang hsu liu silver ucs indiana edu subject upgrade 286 486 help needed ! ! ! organization indiana university lines 27 greetings , please forgive faq source kind info , please let know got 286 station \( around 21 16 5 7 dimension \) , thinking upgrade 486 386 station power supply , two floppy disk drives , big case sony 1304 monitor , syquest drive \( mac \) , maybe cd rom reader \( mac \) questions far 1 \) 486 motherboard dimension could use case \? 2 \) original controller floppy drive hard disk removed use control devices 486 \? much pay new controllers old ones wo n't work \? 3 \) make syquest \( scsi \) cd rom \( scsi \) work station \? heard cheap sound board scsi controller built \? 's quality board \? much usually scsi control cost \? ftp sites syquest driver cd rom driver pc everything hooked ok \? 4 \) want 486 motherboard , sound board make mpc quality station much would cost \? worth buy new 486 station \? btw , need buy keyboard input welcome thank peter liu
subject date stuck csc canterbury ac nz organization university canterbury , christchurch , new zealand nntp posting host cantva canterbury ac nz lines 25 article 1993apr14 kosman uucp , kevin kosman uucp \( kevin o'gorman \) writes anybody seen date get stuck \? i'm running ms dos 5 0 menu system alive time machine left running time suddenly , date longer rolls time \( reasonably \) accurate allways , change date hand every morning involves exiting menu system get dos anyone slightest idea \? even clue whether hardware \( battery \? cmos \? \) dos broken \? bet suddenly started sticking started leaving pc running menu night limitation bug date roll software pc 's means something like waiting keyboard input via dos call rather bios call \( menus often use \) otherwise code update date midnight never gets called somebody might able correct details case 've mis , think change menu program \( sources \) add tsr system patch something far know cmos clock keeps right time \( fact 7 seconds day better dos 's clock \) mark , university canterbury
subject netware server 286a sft netware 286 level ii v2 0a system codewks nacjack gen nz \( wayne mcdougall \) organization code works limited , po box 10 155 , auckland , new zealand lines 60 facts netware server 286a roughly moved new location left powered three months memory 80 mb hard drive manuals original disks sft netware 286 level ii v2 0a powered , cmos wiped technician examined pronounced disk drive unusable investigations indicate drive c type 27 \( 1024 cylinders , 9 sides \) cmos set way , runs happily , 13 bad blocks use prepare one internal drive install proceed successfully , try boot server , reports software hardware internal examination indicates keycard present , one disk drive \( least one large single unit \) attempts configure second drive cmos result drive ready errors questions software netware 286 level ii see burnt screen sft netware 286 level ii v2 0a however , configure netware level ii \( mirrored disks \) requires second disk , yes \? novell server 286a normally configured \? 1 install sft netware 286 level ii v2 0a level , causing error \? 2 novell server 286a normally equipped two hard drives , one failed \? 3 would mean install network software hardware failed drive \? 4 else cause error \? 5 happens keycard fails \? 6 something wrong \? someone knowledgeable offer comments guides thanks time apology appreciate posted request somewhat widely i'm dealing somewhat archaic hardware software i'm hoping casting net , i'm likely capture someone met system believe justify groups posting please feel free correct feel inappropriate place post posting definitive wayne mcdougall keeper list shows better star trek \( tm \) ask auckland festival missions , 18 25 april , 1993 always change mind new evidence available method use \?
arthur hardy u washington edu \( howard \) subject problem printer emm386 exe ! ! article shelley distribution world organization university washington , seattle lines 8 nntp posting host hardy u washington edu recently decided try using emm386 exe memory manager tried print printer lpt1 would n't work would send top margin printer ready light would go stop working disabled emm386 exe problem went away would like continue using emm386 exe possible would greatly appreciate comments suggestions ! ! please send arthur u , arthur u washington edu
goyal utdallas edu \( mohit k goyal \) subject ide vs scsi nntp posting host utdallas edu organization univ texas dallas lines 30 bus mastering isa bus \? initiating dma \) seriously , busmastering adapter dma ability , n't use motherboards board dma \( much slower \) isa bus arbitration , two busmastering cards 1 isa system try dma dma channel system lock crash \( forget \) 8 dma channels isa system 0 7 0 3 8 bit 4 7 16 bit system uses dma 0 , soundblaster uses dma 1 could buy busmastering xga 2 video card busmastering scsi ha order work properly , would find dma channel xga 2 card uses simply configure scsi ha use different dma channel dma n't know multiple dma go time isa i'm sure eisa systems either know eisa mca systems , allow bm cards use dma channel thanks
subject soundblaster irq port settings massey ac nz \( j \) organization massey university , north , new zealand x reader netnews pc version 2c lines 17 n't conflict technically lpt1 use irq7 ! parallel printer processor \( actual number escapes \) contains printer control register enables chip transmit interrupt interrupt controller irq7 , onto main processor int default parallel printer processor enable 's interrupt line therefore int 's printer controller chip , thus enabling devices use actual irq7 note , applies com ports also default route interrupts system bus , although com 's software usually enable feature make monitoring com port activity easier polling serial uart , thus probably getting sound card confused ! windows may different story
usc edu \( juan carlos leon \) subject modems noisy lines organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 21 distribution world nntp posting host phakt usc edu hi , got problem , cheapo 2400bps modem use connect university , get much garbage screen know 's noise line \( actually hear \) question error correction protocol help eliminate garbage \? , modem n't hardware , software implemented protocol trick \? thanks juan carlos leon scf usc edu ucs usc edu electrical computer major university computing services university southern california los angeles , ca
ab245 cleveland freenet edu \( sam latonia \) subject date stuck organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 7 nntp posting host slc10 ins cwru edu ca n't imagine someone would leave computer time start like leaving lights tv , radio everything house time nuts gosh think installed virus called ms dos6 n't copy floppy burn love windows crash
ab245 cleveland freenet edu \( sam latonia \) subject help ! tonight ! determine 387 \? \? 25mhz chip ! organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 5 nntp posting host slc10 ins cwru edu ever call 800 number ask \? gosh think installed virus called ms dos6 n't copy floppy burn love windows crash
ab245 cleveland freenet edu \( sam latonia \) subject 17 monitors organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 10 nntp posting host slc10 ins cwru edu would realy like hear someone one nanao t560i monitors driving diamond speedstar 24x 24x set run 58 1 khz 72 output mode , realy driving hell monitor nanao t560i would fall apart poor low capabilities like \( 3 \) sony 1604s 24x driving balls sam gosh think installed virus called ms dos6 n't copy floppy burn love windows crash
ab245 cleveland freenet edu \( sam latonia \) subject perfect mag mx15f monitors \? organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 27 nntp posting host slc10 ins cwru edu article \( last \) tamuts tamu edu \( hong \) newsgroups comp sys ibm pc hardware subject perfect mag mx15f monitors \? date sat apr 17 07 13 05 1993 friend mine got mag model , sent back unfortunately , replacement also distorted would bet 's common problem best advice 've heard buying actually look specific one buy \( opposed model \) since monitor manufacturing even big names still tends produce alot monitors visible defects hong \( tamuts tamu edu \) end file , press return quit name two top list crap monitor makers , sony magnavox sam gosh think installed virus called ms dos6 n't copy floppy burn love windows crash
charles mb ca \( charles \) subject com boards info needed organization unix box lines 10 4 com port boards available pcs \? want standard com ports , need mention expensive ones either able share irqs able use irqs 8 15 thanks info
ab245 cleveland freenet edu \( sam latonia \) subject isa bus pin question diamond speedstar 24x organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 16 nntp posting host slc10 ins cwru edu speedstar 24x systems boot problems system fails boot , please pull jumper block affect speedstar 24x manual says never knew card real ask kicker book beats hell junk sony 1604s point ca n't even use mode much sam times turns big overkill , like driving sony 24x monitor ca n't handle installing 60ns simms finding mother board n't cmos wait state adjustment take advantage new 60ns simms bought ! gosh think installed virus called ms dos6 n't copy floppy burn love windows crash
schauf iastate edu \( brian j schaufenbuel \) subject philips 17 monitor keywords 17 monitor organization iowa state university , ames , ia distribution usa lines 26 anybody opinion philips 1762dt 17 monitor \? compare nanao 17 \? looking good 17 \( like many \) found good price philips specs sony trinitron tube digital micro control 1280x1024 ni 25 dp mm display area 100 hz refresh anti glare , mpr ii auto scan 30 64 khz n't ever see monitor sale \( one company apr computer shopper \) \? best price around \? 'bout mag 17 \? love mag 15 \( except little color alignment thing l r edges \) brian schaufenbuel brian j schaufenbuel art one government sooner learns 3644 halsted draining money pockets ames , ia people especially college students adam smith
subject wangtek tape controller card revision e address irq wanted system codewks nacjack gen nz \( wayne mcdougall \) organization code works limited , po box 10 155 , auckland , new zealand lines 26 wangtek tape controller card \( revision e \) used sytos backup system take backups friend 's system system crashed i'm attempting restore unfortunately , documentation ancient card lost time , need know dma , irq address card anyone suggest could determine things \? bank dip switches card set 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 open thanks time posting definitive wayne mcdougall keeper list shows better star trek \( tm \) ask auckland festival missions , 18 25 april , 1993 always change mind new evidence available method use \?
monu6 cc monash edu au \( mr walker \) subject 2 sound 1 machine organization monash university , melb , australia lines 10 possible 2 sound 1 machine \? would give equivalent sb pro stereo digitized sound way creative labs price pro 's oz , price equal suppose could set addresses 220 dma channels \? way dma channel sharing hype \? share sb hardisk dma channels something esoteric \?
oecjtb oec4 orbital dialix oz au \( john bongiovanni \) subject date stuck organization orbital engine company lines 29 bsardis netcom com \( barry sardis \) writes kevin kosman uucp \( kevin o'gorman \) writes anybody seen date get stuck \? i'm running ms dos 5 0 menu system alive time machine left running time suddenly , date longer rolls time \( reasonably \) accurate allways , change date hand every morning involves exiting menu system get dos 've started notice thing i'm running dos 5 win 3 1 fix windows control panel times date , others clock seems running several minutes behind hear order date advance , something , like clock , make get date system call \? apparently , clock hardware interrupt bios n't \( date advance \) automatically get date call notices midnight reset flag set , advances date anybody info \? john bongiovanni , systems analyst , orbital engine company , perth , australia oecjtb oec4 orbital dialix oz au , bongo alumni caltech edu opinions expressed organisation
subject trident 8900 switch settings \( someone archive ! \) vax1 mankato msus edu organization mankato state university lines 109 txt jeffrey e \( vax1 mankato msus edu \) switch settings trident 8900c 9 xx 8 8 8 8 1 xx 6 10 4 2 xx j1 j2 xx 8 8 8 8 3 5 5 7 vga graphics adapter layout 1 \( 8 dram \) 4 j3 9 11 8 8 8 8 1 6 10 4 2 j2 5 11 8 8 8 8 3 5 4 j1 7 vga graphics adapter layout 2 \( 2 4 8 dram \) 4 j3 9 11 8 8 8 8 1 6 10 4 5 2 j2 11 8 8 8 8 5 3 4 j3 4 j1 vga graphics adapter layout 3 \( 2 4 8 dram \) 1 dip switches 2 db 15 connector analog monitors 3 db 9 connector ttl monitors \( note 1 \) 4 j1 , j2 , j3 , j4 \( j3 layouts 2 3 , j4 layout 3 \) 5 video bios basic input system 6 tvga 8900 chip vga graphics chip 7 edge connector ibm pc xt , pc compatible systems 8 video dram 1mb 9 feature connector special applications 10 video dac 11 jumper blocks jp2 \( 2 4 8 board \) note 1 hardware option feature present board versions switch settings 6 switch dip box \( 1 figures \) switch 3 scan rate less \( default \) 38 switch 5 fast slow address decode fast address decode \( default \) slow address decode switch 6 8 16 bit data path 16 bit data path \( default \) 8 bit data path jumper settings j1 settings irq9 1 2 3 1 2 3 xxx xxx \( def \) j2 settings bus size 1 1 x 2 x 2 x 3 x 3 standard interface \( def \) j3 settings dram configuration 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 5 6 4 5 6 4 5 6 two dram four dram eight dram j4 dram clock select 1 2 3 1 2 3 xxx xxx 40 mhz 48 mhz two dram 4 8 dram sw1 sw2 sw1 sw2 vga mode \( default \) ega mode cga mode mda hercules mode
tp923021 fir canberra edu au \( ben elliston \) subject possible faq question uart lines 25 organization compact solutions , canberra act australia hello , question could someone e mail names manufactures 16550 uarts seen national semiconductor one know cheers , ben ben elliston bachelor engineering \( computer engineering \) university canberra email tp923021 canberra edu au also cbr cpsg com au uucp ! uunet ! munnari ! sserve adfa oz au ! compsol ! root fidonet 3 620 262 train station train stops , 's workstation \? ! origin compact solutions canberra act australia \( 3 620 262 \)
cs vu nl \( stel e \) subject w32 tseng card vlb cards \( please \) organization fac wiskunde informatica , vu , amsterdam lines 30 , days i'm going buy new motherboard local bus \( ses \) comes cirrus logic vlb card 2mb ram onboard true color n't know type card read cirrus logic cards n't exactly around old system tseng 4000 pretty pleased , consider buying w32 tseng card 'd like know things speed performance dos windows unix os 2 graphics text \( also compared s3 cards example \) resolutions \( including colors \) support \( text graphics \) many ram installed type ram compatibility old tseng 4000 support software anyone experience card \( good bad \) 'd like know better alternative w32 please tell people holland kan de w32 te \? het de van amsterdam ! thanks advance , erik stel \( cs vu nl \)
subject help internet ! ! ! acs harding edu reply acs harding edu organization harding university nntp posting host acs harding edu lines 10 know n't exact right place put , im desperate ! 'll going home summer , wont direct access vax account problem , need service n't charge body parts , vital organs , first born son , allows access internet ! really need able telnet school account , anything need help greatly appreciated ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! please ! e mail acs harding edu
credit erin utoronto ca \( ngo nguyen \) subject date stuck organization university toronto , campus lines 19 article usenet ins cwru edu ab245 cleveland freenet edu \( sam latonia \) writes ca n't imagine someone would leave computer time start like leaving lights tv , radio everything house time nuts computers special case 's pretty good idea leave cuz everytime turn computer , 're putting surge electricity delicate components imagine 're turning computer 5 times day 're increasing chances damaging chips , memory , etc components computer may save cents electricity bills , wo n't look like much come time fix computer 02 worth n ngo
wil shell portal com \( ville v walveranta \) subject digitizing tablet questions nntp posting host jobe organization portal communications company x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 15 hong \( tamuts tamu edu \) wrote i'm market small \( \) digitizing tablet would like comments main names see , , major differences \? particular preference \? also look avoid \? thanks input provide hong \( tamuts tamu edu \) ville v walveranta tel fax \( 510 \) 420 0729 96 linda ave , apt 5 finland 990 1 510 420 0729 oakland , ca \( faxes automatically recognized \) usa email wil shell portal com
gw wmich edu subject computer gets locked ! ! help ! ! ! ! ! ! organization western michigan university lines 17 weird thing happened computer lately , gets locked \( stops anything \) instance without reason might using edit gets locked , might prompt occurs happens almost every 3 times connect computer , anyone slight idea 's wrong \? \( try use ctrl alt del , response turn back \) thanks help really appreciated e mail possible sometimes ca n't access service
dde dk \( ib \) subject scsi dos keywords scsi , dos , streamer organization data lines 23 hello netters , question concerning scsi dos scsi controller two hard disks \( id 's 0 1 \) 'd like connect scsi streamer , n't software access beast exist shareware pd \? also want third disk \? know dos see two two physical four logical disks possible use extra disks \? thanks advance ib ib data , branch , denmark telephone int 45 75 72 26 00 fax int 45 75 72 27 76 e mail dde dk
cs su oz au \( mark james \) subject ide vs scsi \( vlb busmastering slows system \) organization dept computer science , university sydney , australia lines 12 article 1993apr16 mnemosyne cs du edu smace nyx cs du edu \( scott mace \) writes ever seen happens hook busmaster controller vesa local bus actually slows system n't belive said busmastering vlbus pick back issue pc week tested vlbus , eisa isa busmastering cards vlb busmastering bad stops processor fetching external cache well main memory vlb card bus \? significant slowing effect \?
hp com \( kobayashi \) subject cr rom drive recommendation \? organization r , tokyo japan lines 24 hi , would like purchase cd rom drive specs would like applicable kodak multisession photo cd scsi \( 2 \) interface compatible adaptec 1542b need cheaper \( 500 possible \) double believe drives satisfying condition , would like know opinion conditions sorted priority think nec 1 84 1 little bit expensive , satisfy almost conditions problem know compatibility 1542b someone succeeded connect nec drives 1542b \? heard rumor nec drive incompatible 1542b adapter suggestions greatly appreciated thanks advance , kobayashi , \( hp com \)
apoylis inode com subject faq cyrix 486dlc \? reply apoylis inode com distribution world organization inode bbs , nyc 's best usenet access \( 212 679 \) lines 9 reply apoylis inode com faq cyrix 486dlc \? missed , could anyone please repost email \? thanks advance alexander , internet apoylis inode com fidonet 1 2603 106 blue wave qwk v2 12
m88max tdb uu se \( max brante \) subject atari mono vga organization department scientific computing , uppsala university lines 12 anybody converting atari monitor mono vga monitor please let know exactly graphics card used thanx l l \( \) max brante m88max tdb uu se l l l l l l l l l \( \( \) l f r l l l l l l \( \) uppsala universitet
subject western digital hd info needed ac nz distribution world lines 28 article jester gun de , michael jester gun de \( michael gerhards \) writes holly ks \( cs3sd3ae maccs mcmaster ca \) wrote western digital also three sets pins back using another hard drive well settings jumpers written right circuit board wd drive sl \? \? \? \? jumper used , drive conner jumper set drive alone drive master sl drive slave yo , yo , yo western digital hd marked either , , put jumper printed circuitry hope helped problem bye later ac nz michael michael jester gun de michael gerhards preussenstrasse 59 germany 4040 neuss voice 49 2131 82238
hodgen ozzy uni koblenz de \( wayne hodgen \) subject weitek p9000 future plans organization uni koblenz , germany lines 48 nntp posting host ozzy uni koblenz de article 1993apr13 weitek com robert weitek com \( robert \) writes article uni koblenz de hodgen ozzy uni koblenz de \( wayne hodgen \) writes sum , accelerated board 4mb vram \( true colour 1280x1024 \) fast vga side available 500 , buy one ! 's funny , really buy product , probably wo n't seem mouth today \? \? get outta ! wait 'cos 've already got accelerated card 1280x1024 16 colour may mock , cards quickly enough one odd things computer industry , since always wait get something better , people wait forever know people updating original ibm pc decade , every time look 's available , see something better coming road know people 've dumped pcs garage , n't replaced , 're afraid n't right time buy gave using computers wait difference current system new stuff big enough warrant changing instance , 'll upgrading 486 33 486dx 2 66 eisa , vlb board rsn performance difference \( linux \) great enough worthwhile time 'll buying new graphic card new scsi controller 'll buying s3 card 'cos 're fast enough , x11 drivers 'll 2mb vram like weitek 9000 card also much cheaper affordable 4mb cards arrive , 'll buy one personally , system home needs new disk subsystem , much larger monitor , super fast graphics board know , new cpu board probably wo n't keep much case mouse come think , n't like mouse much buy \? dream products hit market \? way ! i'm gonna buy soon money ! last year 've done much need 19 monitor , memory \( 20mb ai n't enough \) , gb disk \( 1 2gb space left \) oh well , stay single , n't smoke may afford year \) wayne hodgen hodgen uni koblenz de opinions \( c \) 1991 intel sx uni koblenz , \( ! unido ! ! hodgen \) keeper scrolls , 3 4 , voice 49 261 645 defender net , say 5400 koblenz fax 49 261 499 name root ! ! !
ggeorge bu edu \( gerry george \) subject 8 cards 6 card motherboard \? article bu lines 28 x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 carl christensen \( christen astro ocis temple edu \) wrote may dumbest question year , way expand 6 slot motherboard \( 16 bit \) get usual 8 \? case slots 8 , 'd like get scanner , cards i'm already max 'd ! i'm hoping simple solution exists , e g adapter turns i'm sure work , using one 't' used low profile cases allow 3 5 slots staggered either side card install last slot , \( probably \) 2 3 sideways slots actually done low profile cases standard motherboard , 't' connector one slot , expansion cards plugged 't' guess could end slots \( 1 8 \) add even 't' connectors simply tracks slots electronics downside case wo n't close , system , may problem n't know performance , though 'll leave discussion engineers gerry george anything good life either school management , boston univ illegal , immoral internet ggeorge acs bu edu item three compu erve 2560 compuserve com categories causes cancer rats !
ggeorge bu edu \( gerry george \) subject partition table disappeared ! ! help article bu lines 20 x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 computer wo n't recognise disk reboot \( windows crash ! ! \) options restore everything , without losing data \? drive previously 3 partitions , remember exact settings copies boot data disk \( pc tools rescue disk \) want lose data 340mb ide drive options \? gerry george anything good life either school management , boston univ illegal , immoral internet ggeorge acs bu edu item three compu erve 2560 compuserve com categories causes cancer rats !
sp1marse \( marco seirio \) subject small pc lines 15 x newsreader tin 1 1 pl3 i'm looking pc small n't break apart drop n't graphics , text fine n't fast either , 8086 , hope must stand pretty hard enviroment without breaking apart , trying use outdoor raining forth need 640kb memory way loading applications wrote \( floppy cartridge \? \) pc like \? \? get info \? know atari portfolio ca n't stand rain marco seirio real life sp1marse caligula
jim n5ial mythical com \( jim graham \) subject possible faq question uart organization , \? \? \? must joking lines 26 article fmsrl7 srl ford com glang slee01 srl ford com \( gordon lang \) writes national semiconductor n't know manufacturers make equivalent chips maybe national n't even original , one know , , , , , argument going direct national \( see previous post topic \) , info regarding said n't know 8250 16450 , ns original source 16550 series \( strongly suspect developed others first , \) also tell i'm one wo n't buy uart made anyone national semiconductor jim include std disclaimer h 73 de n5ial \( 4 \) internet jim n5ial mythical com j graham ieee org icbm 30 23n 86 32w amateur radio n5ial w4zbb \( ft walton beach , fl \) amtor selcal nial e mail information kamterm \( host mode kantronics tncs \)
nmp mfltd co uk \( nic percival \( \) \) subject non turbo speed reply nmp mfltd co uk organization micro focus ltd , newbury , england lines 18 taken delivery 66mhz 486 dx2 machine , nice one query landmark speed turbo 230 something mhz thats problem problem speed turbo 7 mhz equivalent car terms nice porsche button turns anyone clue determines relative performance turbo vs non turbo \? \? would like set give landmark speed 30 40 mhz turbo cheers , nic percival well piece cake , eh k 9 \? micro focus , newbury piece cake master \? radial slice baked \( \) ext coefficient relevance nmp mfltd co uk key time zero dr
sony co jp \( \) subject need info font cartridge hp laserjet ii reply sony co jp organization display products group , sony corporation , tokyo , japan lines 11 nntp posting host 43 2 19 6 looking good add font cartridge hp laserjet ii found pc magazine article iq pacific data products well known maker cartridge hp laserjet series could n't find model name products suggestions please thanks advance , sony corporation technology center
joedal dfi aau dk \( lars joedal \) subject 80386 80486 's difference \? nntp posting host dfi aau dk organization aarhus university , denmark lines 31 except clock frequency , differences various types 386 486 processors \? following list know \( perhaps think know ! \) anybody extend correct \? 80386 true 32 bit processor \( cache \? \) emulates 80386 16 bit bus 80486 true 32 bit processor internal mathematical coprocessor \( correct \? \) internal cache \( correct \? big \? \) \( extended instruction set way \? \) probably sorta like 80486 80486dx probably sorta like 80386 well , 's much , i'm sure lot people add lot information post email prefer lars j dal q 's difference quantum email joedal dfi aau dk mechanic auto mechanic \? physics student quantum mechanic get car university aarhus garage without opening door denmark david
informatik uni erlangen de \( robert \) subject booting b drive organization university erlangen , csd ai nntp posting host informatik uni erlangen de lines 36 hi ! think vga copy need create new floppy drive \( 5 1 4 \) , turn modify switch vga copy boot using diskette , message appears system disk , 1 \) replace disk another , 2 \) boot harddisk 3 \) switch drives reboot \( , becomes b , b becomes \) type choice select third item , boot b called seems work good , example booting installation disks 3 5 format problem friend mine \( 3 5 drive \) hope helps robert p vga copy shareware , 's easy get newest version seems 5 0 robert , 17 , erlangen , tel email informatik uni erlangen de \( erlangen \) wars see right , left robert , 17 , erlangen , tel email informatik uni erlangen de \( erlangen \) wars see right , left
ultb isc rit edu \( f shea \) subject recommendations local bus \( cached \) ide controller nntp posting host ultb gw isc rit edu organization rochester institute technology distribution usa lines 41 article 1993apr16 julian uwo ca wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca \( wayne smith \) writes article 1993apr16 sol ctr columbia edu penev venezia rockefeller edu writes maxtor 212mb isa ide controller , although machine dx2 66 vlb save transfer rate 0 647 mb regardless variations isa bus speed tested speed 5 5mhz 8 33mhz difference problem interface controller memory advice buy ram , save 70 enjoy performance computer 286 25 mhz bus isa \( 12 5 mhz \) drive maxtor \( 213 mb \) 'd still like people vlb ide still want know vlb bus speed used ide drives still want know \( \? \) ide drives handle bus speeds 8 mhz recently bought micron 486dx 33 vlb computer local bus ide card getting around 1k transfer rates \( says norton \) micron seemed slow said norton 6 xx n't recognize local bus wo n't give accurate results told would need norton 7 0 order get true account ide transfer speed n't really like answer part drive n't seem though 's cranking along much , also n't know could tell difference tried playing around settings cmos \( bus speed like \) noticed significant change performance frank shea learn frank shea teaches , ultb isc rit edu hath fool master rochester institute technology ben franklin
wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca \( wayne smith \) subject scsi dos organization john p robarts research institute , london , ontario keywords scsi , dos , streamer nntp posting host valve heart rri uwo ca lines 21 article 1993apr19 dde dk dde dk \( ib \) writes question concerning scsi dos scsi controller two hard disks \( id 's 0 1 \) 'd like connect scsi streamer , n't software access beast exist shareware pd \? also want third disk \? know dos see two two physical four logical disks possible use extra disks \? contrary others might thought , actually scsi drive seagate st 02 controller found controller could n't keep 1 1 interleave , best could drive 2 1 interleave data transfer 450 k sec drive controller coexist mfm , rll , ide drives st 02 bios kinda muscle help needed computer 's bios dos see many logical drives , much 4 \( 've 10 \) 've often wondered many scsi drives could hang st 01 02
thia sce carleton ca \( yong thia \) subject vesa local bus summary vesa keywords vesa organization carleton university distribution na lines 9 hi ! wondering anyone could point get vesa specifications relevant books subject regards jimmy
jmarttila finabo abo fi \( fast eddie \) subject trident 8800cs drivers win 3 1 \? organization turku school economics x news reader vms news 1 24 lines 15 hello 've got old trident 8800cs svga card , lacking suitable drivers windows 3 1 drivers 8900 series seem incompatible anyone idea get drivers \? address ftp site would nice thanks advance jouni jouni yo 11 b 25 , 20540 turku , finland 358 21 jmarttila abo fi jmarttila finabo jmarttila utu fi pgp key available via finger jmarttila abo fi
s106275 ee tut fi \( anssi saari \) subject 80386 80486 's difference \? organization tampere university technology , computing centre lines 38 distribution inet nntp posting host ee tut fi joedal dfi aau dk joedal dfi aau dk \( lars joedal \) writes except clock frequency , differences various types 386 486 processors \? following list know \( perhaps think know ! \) anybody extend correct \? 80386 true 32 bit processor \( cache \? \) cache emulates 80386 16 bit bus 80486 true 32 bit processor internal mathematical coprocessor \( correct \? \) correct internal cache \( correct \? big \? \) \( extended instruction set way \? \) six instructions \? probably sorta like 80486 80486dx without mathematical coprocessor \( fpu \) 80486dx probably sorta like 80386 actually , 80486 described 80486dx \( separate 80486 80386 , either \) intel processors anyone complete list cyrix ibm products \? anssi anssi saari s106275 ee tut fi tampere university technology finland , europe
diku dk \( niels olsen \) subject rockwell chipset 14 4 's good \? organization department computer science , u copenhagen lines 33 tdbear dvorak amd com \( thomas barrett \) writes article im14u2c camelot im14u2c camelot bradley edu \( joe zbiciak \) writes 's word chipset \? rom bug specific specific brand using rockwell , rockwell chipset \? assortment firmware problems , pretty much expected fax modem talking different fax modem may also revised new i'm pretty much oblivious current firmware problems , 'll get someone else someone else , could please comment bought 14 , rockwell chipset n't cheap would like hear problems i'm likely run however , tell stay clear board uses rockwell mpu \( opposed \) internal implementation mpu used speed buffering instead 16550 interface without 550 interface , number interrupts still thus may get dropped multitasking conditions \( like windows \) far know , speed buffering works ok external modems 550 used internal serial port board phew , lucky ! internal version one rockwell chips marked still would like hear mentioned firmware problems niels
lonestar org \( \) subject help distribution world organization user user pcboard \( 214 \) 492 \( usr ds v32bis \) reply lonestar org \( \) lines 12 somone explain stuff modems like v 32 v 42 hst usrobotics cheap 14 4 cannot connect fast modems explain everything ! ! ! thanks must believe free choice blue wave qwk v2 12
gandalf ca \( khan \) subject ide vs scsi \( go \) organization gandalf data ltd lines 36 1993apr16 mnemosyne cs du edu smace nyx cs du edu \( scott mace \) writes article 1993apr12 486 julian uwo ca wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca \( wayne smith \) writes almost got hernia laughing one 'll probably get one realize 100 vesa super local bus ultra high tech controller sucks anything , scsi \( pc \) obsolete killed vesa local luck pc bus ever seen happens hook busmaster controller vesa local bus actually slows system bus ide must real nice get shafted 20 100 bucks extra cost scsi drive , pay another 200 300 scsi controller yeah , absolutely use vlb except video graphics ide could possibly take advantage vlb , runs 8 mhz 16 bits people forget ide specifically designed interface directly isa bus \? 've seen come eisa , xt isa , even mca , times 16 bit standard , running somewhere near 8 10 mhz run ide vlb , 's way 're running 33 mhz , would burn course goes scsi , esdi , whatever , none run cpu speed way gain advantage vlb ide hook caching controller suspect would much , much better get software disk cache instead , since get write caching well ide one makes ide disks big 've seen fuji ide drives going high 1g khan
mancus sweetpea jsc nasa gov \( keith mancus \) subject ca n't get 1280x1024 work w 2m ati ultra pro organization mdssc lines 18 unable get gateway 486dx2 66 run windows 1280x1024 ordered 2m ati ultra pro , i'm pretty sure 2m really select 1024x768x65536 matter flex program ati 's program group , 1280x1024 remains ghosted windows 3 1 , build 59 drivers , dos 5 0 drivers installed gateway , , perhaps 's file missing hard drive runs 1024x768 fine go desktop window select 1280x1024 sometimes refuses \( ghosted \) , time accepts , hit ok enter desktop , 's back 1024x768 time 1280x1024 main flex window help ! keith mancus mancus butch jsc nasa gov n5wvr mancus sweetpea jsc nasa gov black powder alcohol , states cities fall , back 's wall leslie fish
cs1442au news uta edu \( cs1442au \) subject dos 6 0 question organization university texas arlington lines 17 could kind soul please email response since n't much time read group question 170 mb hard drive currently 10 mb left much space doublespace allow \? \? 486 50 w 4 mb ram matters thanks advance jason jason brown cs1442au uta edu fav player sierra
dcoleman ccwf cc utexas edu \( daniel coleman \) subject ca n't get 1280x1024 work w 2m ati ultra pro article geraldo organization university texas austin , austin , texas lines 26 nntp posting host flubber cc utexas edu article 1993apr19 aio jsc nasa gov mancus sweetpea jsc nasa gov \( keith mancus \) writes unable get gateway 486dx2 66 run windows 1280x1024 ordered 2m ati ultra pro , i'm pretty sure 2m really select 1024x768x65536 matter flex program ati 's program group , 1280x1024 remains ghosted windows 3 1 , build 59 drivers , dos 5 0 drivers installed gateway , , perhaps 's file missing hard drive runs 1024x768 fine go desktop window select 1280x1024 sometimes refuses \( ghosted \) , time accepts , hit ok enter desktop , 's back 1024x768 time 1280x1024 main flex window help ! maybe need go mach32 install set refresh rate 1280x1024 might need use custom monitor option dan daniel matthew coleman internet dcoleman ccwf cc utexas edu dcoleman utxvms cc utexas edu university texas austin decnet utxvms dcoleman electrical computer engineering bitnet dcoleman utxvms bitnet
icf hrb com \( eric sebastian \) subject question fastmicro organization hrb systems , inc lines 6 thought read fastmicro financial difficulties , true \? ca n't seem find posting wondering someone confirm thanks , eric sebastian
richard richard mic ki se subject disk drives \? x xxmessage id bart mic ki se x xxdate mon , 19 apr 93 16 56 10 gmt nntp posting host bart mic ki se organization mic , institute , sweden x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d17 lines 14 sw delivered often \( always \? \) get 360 k diskettes opt 5 1 4 inch format big existing pc xt 's low capacity drives diskette station \? \( \) ooo \( \) ooo richard , md institute systems analyst mic voice 8 46 728 80 00 library fax 8 46 33 04 81 medical information center snail po box 602 01 21 c , 104 01 stockholm 104 01 stockholm email richard mic ki se sweden
lee tosspot sv com \( lee reynolds \) subject help 8 bit memory card needed ! organization ludus associates , incorporated lines 16 hi ! i'm busy old machines \( hey , 're cheap work \) \) would grateful help following card full length 8 bit memory card room 8 rows 256k total 2mb ram 8 position dip switch , presumably addressing kind soul docs drivers beast \? 'd grateful thanks , lee \( lee tosspot sv com \)
lee tosspot sv com \( lee reynolds \) subject 16 bit mfm hd controller wanted organization ludus associates , incorporated lines 8 hi ! okay , getting old type together well anyone 16 bit mfm 'd like sell \? wd preferred , adaptec dtk fine matter , almost anything long works ! lee \( lee tosspot sv com \)
lee tosspot sv com \( lee reynolds \) subject cga card monitor wanted organization ludus associates , incorporated lines 4 title says \? lee \( lee tosspot sv com \)
lee tosspot sv com \( lee reynolds \) subject serial card sale organization ludus associates , incorporated lines 9 selling card four serial ports one card \( \) docs drivers os 2 dos \( works great unix flavors \) aggregate probably around 64kb offers \? also willing swap monitor lee \( lee tosspot sv com \)
sunee uwaterloo ca \( brian c white \) subject scsi dos keywords scsi , dos , streamer organization university waterloo lines 15 article 1993apr19 julian uwo ca wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca \( wayne smith \) writes seagate st 02 controller found controller could n't keep 1 1 interleave , best could drive 2 1 interleave data transfer 450 k sec according others told , st difficult run 1 1 interleave even though seagate claims non pc system \( n't ask , probably n't heard \) built around scsi ca n't 1 1 , either brian \( sunee uwaterloo ca \) theory , theory practice practice , 're
civil ubc ca \( thomas wong \) subject date stuck organization dept civil engineering , u b c , vancouver , b c , canada lines 15 nntp posting host sam civil ubc ca article usenet ins cwru edu ab245 cleveland freenet edu \( sam latonia \) writes ca n't imagine someone would leave computer time start like leaving lights tv , radio everything house time nuts plenty computer labs computers left time n't see shorter lifespan ones offices get turned end day fact , computers labs ones offices goes ways ca n't conclude anything thomas
fang att com \( elliot b dierksen \) subject help dtk plus ii card needed reply e dierksen att com \( elliot dierksen \) organization tax systems development , fl lines 36 trying help friend mine get second serial port dtk plus ii card working want cooperate documentation help example , says 'the serial port changed com2 com1 moving jumpers ' say jumpers move ! ! \( 2 banks jumpers first one labeled follows c1 c2 s2 p2 p1 g second bank labeled irq following labels 5c 5s 4 3 3s 2c 2s determined c1 c2 jumpers tell address first serial port com1 com2 p1 , p2 jumpers tell use printer port lpt1 lpt2 guessing g enables game port s2 enable second serial port , ca n't get work tried numerous setting irq bank without success assume bank must tell card irq 's use ports , know suggestions would greatly appreciated ! ! elliot dierksen real mean mexican sears \? hmmm f zappa w \) e dierksen att com \( 407 \) 660 3377 h \) elliot alfred uucp \( 407 \) 290
rash access digex com \( wayne rash \) subject 17 monitors organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 20 nntp posting host access digex net mikey sgi com \( mike yang \) writes article access digex net rash access digex com \( wayne rash \) writes also reviewed new nanao , f550iw , released 's difference f550i new f550iw \? i'm buy gateway system going take f550i upgrade get f550iw instead \? mike yang silicon graphics , inc mikey sgi com 415 390 1786 f550iw optimized windows powers screen appears , powers turn computer , meets swedish standards 's also protected emi adjacent monitors personally , think f550i bang buck right
gw wmich edu subject 's diff mouse sys com \? \? organization western michigan university lines 8 's difference loading mouse com autoexec bat device mouse sys config sys \? \? one better \? thanks lot
ibm 03 navy mil subject fastmicro business \? organization utexas mail news gateway lines 2 nntp posting host cs utexas edu heard fastmicro went business true \? n't answer 800 number 's 800 821 9000
organization penn state university psuvm psu edu subject 80386 80486 's difference \? lines 34 article joedal dfi aau dk , joedal dfi aau dk \( lars joedal \) says except clock frequency , differences various types 386 486 processors \? following list know \( perhaps think know ! \) anybody extend correct \? 80386 true 32 bit processor \( cache \? \) cache , also called 386dx emulates 80386 16 bit bus internals 386 , real 32 bit processor , 16 bit hookup outside world 80486 true 32 bit processor internal mathematical coprocessor \( correct \? \) yes , optimized 387 internal internal cache \( correct \? big \? \) yes , 8k \( extended instruction set way \? \) yes , instructions , nothing noteworthy probably sorta like 80486 486 coprocessor 80486dx probably sorta like 80386 nope another name 486 frank psuvm psu edu psu edu computers useless give answers raise taxes middle class pay programs
35002 4401 uwovax uwo ca subject loopback connector made \? organization university western ont , london nntp posting host hydra uwo ca lines 9 need know pins connect make loopback connector serial port build one loopback connector used test serial port thanks help steve
gjp sei cmu edu \( george pandelios \) subject help need diagnostic disk compaq deskpro 286 organization software engineering institute lines 29 article apr 11 20 16 21 1993 clam rutgers edu , clam rutgers edu \( robert \) writes emergency management group given 30 compaq deskpro 286 's local company outdated problem though , seems cmos settings cannot set without diagnostic disk get error msg boot 162 system options set \( run setup \) insert diagnostic diskette drive someone disk , please e mail thank ! robert amateur radio epa pa usa na rutgers university internet clam rutgers edu vhf repeater system cherry hill , nj repeater 145 computer operating system os 2 2 0 settle less \? robert , probably solved problem anyway , get hands qa plus \( version 4 21 , maybe others well \) , let write compaq cmos settings know search diagnostic disk brother law fixed old deskpro might try simtel mirror ftp sites george
mikey eukanuba wpd sgi com \( mike yang \) subject 17 monitors reply mikey sgi com organization silicon graphics , inc lines 15 nntp posting host eukanuba wpd sgi com article hp2 access digex net , rash access digex com \( wayne rash \) writes f550iw optimized windows powers screen appears , powers turn computer , meets swedish standards 's also protected emi adjacent monitors thanks info personally , think f550i bang buck right much f550iw cost \? mike yang silicon graphics , inc mikey sgi com 415 390 1786
cs3sd3ae maccs mcmaster ca \( holly ks \) subject us robotics info wanted nntp posting host maccs dcss mcmaster ca organization department computer science , mcmaster university lines 11 could someone please give info regarding usr recently dropped 200 \? going buy used courier v32bis external without fax 200 see sportster fax selling 200 brand new ! good modems \? warranty carry \? info much appreciated kevin cis mcmaster ca
l p li1 lut ac uk \( dlp li \) subject cyrix 486dlc 40 cpu reply l p li1 lut ac uk \( dlp li \) organization loughborough university , uk lines 12 2 \) anyone using cpu , impressions cpu performance , compatability \? benchmark program called said cyrix cpus bug cannot run program also may nextstep 486 \? regards , desmond li lut , uk
l p li1 lut ac uk \( dlp li \) subject new svga card \? reply l p li1 lut ac uk \( dlp li \) organization loughborough university , uk lines 12 hi , hardware netters , 've seen recently magazines advertising \? new \? trident graphics card call ad said 's new faster compare tseng et4000 \? btw , fastest non accelerated svga market \? info benchmark welcome thanks advance regards , desmond li lut , uk
den mmc com \( stephen p norman \) subject g2k jumbo 250 backup problems keywords tape backup gateway jumbo nntp posting host muse den mmc com reply den mmc com organization martin marietta astronautics group distribution usa lines 16 colorado memory systems jumbo 250 tape backup unit gateway 486 33v tower system found supplied backup capability fairly unreliable approx 3 cases 10 , backup fail one point another , often hanging middle writing tape seek errors , drive communication errors seem common use dos backup software colorado memory systems return drive , get better backup software , reformat tapes \( using cms tapes \) \? hints would appreciated stuff time consuming steve norman den mmc com
sinn carson u washington edu \( philip sinn \) subject need info maxtor scsi jumper id setting summary jumper id maxtor harddrive keywords harddisk , maxtor article shelley distribution na organization university washington , seattle lines 7 nntp posting host carson u washington edu got harddisk shipped ide specification scsi spec would someone tell set jumper harddrive \? thanks please email response philip sinn sinn carson u washington edu university washington
j manning csc32 enet dec com \( john manning \) subject mitsumi sb pro organization digital equipment corporation distribution usa lines 18 hi , bought mitsumi cd rom drive sb pro pin outs cd rom line sb pro cd considering taking rca output jacks mitsumi interface card routing line input sb pro work multi media software uses cd rom sb pro need go cd pins sb pro thanks , john john manning opinions expressed j manning csc32 enet dec com represent digital equip
fragante unixg ubc ca \( gv fragante \) subject vesa lb bus mastering organization university british columbia lines 12 nntp posting host unixg ubc ca read article benefits vlb motherboard said true vlb board supports bus mastering , otherwise good isa motherboard n't vlb motherboard support bus mastering \? bought 486 33 vlb tech manual explicitly state words local bus mastering said supports bus master slave modes terms synonymous \? thanks ps please reply e mail n't read newgroup often
fragante unixg ubc ca \( gv fragante \) subject winjet accelerator card organization university british columbia lines 5 nntp posting host unixg ubc ca anyone familiar video card \? chipset winjet use s3 \? market video card , best chipset among s3 , cirrus logic tseng lab \( ati question expensive \) \? thanks
westes netcom com \( estes \) subject diamond stealth 24 giving 9 4 winmarks \? organization mail group x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 56 installed diamond stealth 24 isa card 66 system 256k cache , 16 megs memory , gets 126 si 6 0 cpu benchmark rating using color driver windows , getting winbench winmarks rating 9 5 million since heard others get 15 16 million card , assume something wrong setup possible causes card slowing like \? ran diagnostic program memory , noted following memory timings machine v1 30 system analysis mon apr 19 , 1993 11 43 page 1 access timing hex kb kb access speed ratio \( \) start start size time us 0 25 50 75 100 00000 0 32 396 32 32 598 64 32 157 96 32 180 128 64 157 192 32 165 224 128 156 352 96 169 448 32 153 480 32 188 512 96 158 608 32 171 640 96 1221 736 32 768 32 312 800 96 154 896 64 960 64 312 note two things chart 1 \) video memory appears many orders magnitude slower system memory wait states inserted , would cause \? 2 \) ems page frame seems ridiculously slow , even though mapped fast xms memory system emm386 's going \? note stealth 24 's video bios c7ff shadowed ami bios ideas might happening \? estes internet westes netcom com
ihno ka sub org \( ihno \) subject cd rom drives summary hit list sold cd rom drives without scsi interface keywords cd rom drives organization gmbh , karlsruhe lines 23 someone list cd rom 's scsi interface known much present market please mail reading group 'll post summary wanted thanks ihno ihno phone \( 49 \) 721 955 253 0 u u n n iii x x gmbh email ihno ka sub org u u nn n x x bach strasse 24 fax \( 49 \) 721 59 02 11 u u n n n x karlsruhe 21 u u n nn x x n n iii x x ihno phone \( 49 \) 721 955 253 0 u u n n iii x x gmbh email ihno ka sub org u u nn n x x
subject motherboards hard drives vacsc0qe vax csun edu reply vacsc0qe vax csun edu organization cal state lines 12 quick questions anyone 486 dlc system \? \( cyrix 486 dx \) problems \? second , much 486dlc 33 motherboard \( ram \) run \? 3rd total amatuer \( like \) able perform motherboard swap without aid technician , beyond hope \? 4th hear \( \) hard drives may require reformatting switch another computer \( motherboard case may \) truth \? replies would greatly appreciated
creek tm csc ncsu edu \( creek \) subject zip later version \? keywords mem organization ncsu lines 27 fombaron ufrima imag fr \( fombaron marc \) writes recent version zip n't work machine motherboard chips say supported later versions , \? thank helping marc last heard , author problems immediate family delayed continuation development time months ago 's shame driver best memory manager found anywhere n't require mode \( like qemm \) works ultima 7 n't take memory \( runs , exits \) emm provider little faster stable eos ncsu edu views one creek tm csc ncsu edu even wo n't claim include std funny stuff h include witty tripe
keegan edward cs yale edu \( edward keegan \) subject dec mt 486 , adaptec scsi , conflict organization yale university computer science dept , new , ct 06520 2158 lines 14 distribution world nntp posting host thumper cf cs yale edu dec nt 486dx33 adaptec scsi controller , hard disk cd rom drive add ethernet card \( 3c503 \) reboot system receive error message boot device cannot found pull card reboot , everything fine 've moved controller card various slots , different positions \( slot controller , slot controller \) result dec n't responded problem yet help would appreciated edward keegan , facility director e mail keegan cs yale edu yale university , computer science department phone 1 203 432 1254 51 prospect street , room 009 fax 1 203 432 new , ct 06520
dcoleman ccwf cc utexas edu \( daniel coleman \) subject diamond stealth 24 giving 9 4 winmarks \? organization university texas austin , austin , texas lines 25 nntp posting host flubber cc utexas edu article netcom com westes netcom com \( estes \) writes installed diamond stealth 24 isa card 66 system 256k cache , 16 megs memory , gets 126 si 6 0 cpu benchmark rating using color driver windows , getting winbench winmarks rating 9 5 million since heard others get 15 16 million card , assume something wrong setup possible causes card slowing like \? importantly , winbench version using \? local bus ati graphics ultra pro , 've gotten various winbench scores 15 8 million 31 million winmarks , depending version winbench 2 5 gives optimistic scores , 3 11 gives least winmark rating meaningless without corresponding version number dan daniel matthew coleman internet dcoleman ccwf cc utexas edu dcoleman utxvms cc utexas edu university texas austin decnet utxvms dcoleman electrical computer engineering bitnet dcoleman utxvms bitnet
brinton icd teradyne com \( chris brinton \) subject recommendations local bus \( cache reply brinton icd teradyne com organization teradyne , inc boston lines 38 article sol ctr columbia edu , penev rockefeller edu \( penio penev \) writes 15 apr 1993 20 14 20 gmt divya sundaram \( sundaram egr msu edu \) wrote would like hear net wisdom net opinions ide controllers would liek get ide controller card vlb dx2 66 motherboard good options \( preferably 200 \) must also work os 2 compatible stacker \( disk compression w \) maxtor 212mb isa ide controller , although machine dx2 66 vlb save transfer rate 0 647 mb regardless variations isa bus speed tested speed 5 5mhz 8 33mhz difference problem interface controller memory advice buy ram , save 70 enjoy performance penio penev x7423 \( 212 \) 327 7423 \( w \) internet penev venezia rockefeller edu disclaimer oppinions mine also dx2 66 maxtor 212 local bus ide controller \( generic \) get 985 kb tried swapping local bus ide controller isa ide controller transfer rate went 830 kb specs drive show maximum platter controller transfer rate 2 83 mb dont know get local bus interface got little , certainly much hoped also looking way improve disk performance , im convinced controller bottleneck \( although im willing entertain possibility \) already running big main memory disk cache , im really interested solution either chris brinton teradyne , inc brinton icd teradyne com opinions , 're welcome
wil shell portal com \( ville v walveranta \) subject winjet accelerator card nntp posting host jobe organization portal communications company x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 16 gv fragante \( fragante unixg ubc ca \) wrote anyone familiar video card \? chipset winjet use s3 \? market video card , best chipset among s3 , cirrus logic tseng lab \( ati question expensive \) \? thanks winjet video card 's printer accelerator manufactured \( eden prairie , mn \) willy ville v walveranta tel fax \( 510 \) 420 0729 96 linda ave , apt 5 finland 990 1 510 420 0729 oakland , ca \( faxes automatically recognized \) usa email wil shell portal com
willisw willisw eng clemson edu \( bill willis \) subject help ! installing second ide drive organization engineering services , clemson university lines 55 article iv darwin sura net wbarnes sura net \( bill barnes \) writes recently cousin got second internal ide drive \( seagate 210mb , look model number 's important \) 've trying help install 've got vested interest , since machine 's busted use get mine fixed already seagate 85mb ide hd \( , forget model number find \) anyway , ca n't seem get bloody thing 've managed get one drive \( disconnected \) , time whenever try , thing hangs bootup never gets past system test ide controller 's instruction sheet says supports two drives think 've configured cmos correctly power 's plugged properly even learned master slave relationship two hds supposed \( n't know pcs ! 8 \) think configured jumpers properly \( 85mb one master , new 210mb one slave \) thing think maybe i'm cabling wrong 've tried several combinations controller master slave controller slave master master controller slave none worked unfortunately , ca n't think others another possibility 85mb one already partitioned two seperate drives , c , cmos asks c drive drive setup info rather drive 1 drive 2 like others 've seen could confusing things \? , need help ! drive came bereft docs , except info cmos setup controller little piece paper size index card cable \( 's one connector end one middle , looks like serial connection \) lost ! many , many thanks advance ! practically emergency \( two papers thing monday ! \) ! help ! william barnes suranet operations wbarnes sura net \( 301 \) 982 4600 voice \( 301 \) 982 4605 fax disclaimer n't speak suranet n't speak 've told local computer guru ca n't unless perform low level format existing hard drive set system two hard drives beginning took word , tried find , i'm going back everything add another hdd anyone knows sure scoop , would like know also thanks advance also bill willis
prism gatech edu \( greg bishop \) subject help ! ! ! esdi demons ! distribution usa organization national association free exchange information lines 29 help ! really got ripped need help bought maxtor 300mb esdi hdd hi tech 300 , paid get repaired , another 300 's deal thing works fine ! low level formats , etc without bad spots ! \( jaws music \) sectors start going bad ! ! ! ! one time norton disk doctor keeps u c fixes 5 minutes next day run ndd dice correctable sectors ! ! ! ! ! ok , ndd 's enough , 'll use spinrite , heard works well happens \? spinrite goes returns clusters active use ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ndd course problem seams getting worse worse however hdd low level formatted problem goes away , return day i'm pissed right i'm considering buying another hdd , really ca n't afford i'm using smartdrive , windows 3 1 \( i'm using 32 bit disk access though , know create problems \) disk using second option trick controller thinking 's got less 1024 cyls , everything else selected standard , maybe need use different head something \? n't know anyone knows fix problem please tell ! ! ! ! help ! ! ! ! gt designing night yesterday 's technology
troi cc rochester edu \( g wayne nichols \) subject help ! ten beeps 386 40 \( ami bios \) summary error 10 beeps power \? keywords 386 40 ami 10 beeps organization university rochester rochester , new york lines 9 nntp posting host troi cc rochester edu 386 40 motherboard ami bios n't located little motherboard manual yet , suddenly 's giving 10 beeps turn power working fine morning , gave kinds problems , windows outside multiple reboots , gives 10 beeps sits \? anybody know 10 beeps means \? thanks
passman world std com \( shirley l passman \) subject help motherboard w docs organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 20 well , told last message came without anything , 'll try leading edge 386sx 16 flaky motherboard friend game one replace , n't docs mother board 's board award bios sticker says vi 1 t1 3 t2 3 tell switches blue blocks mean except fdc sh , idea jumpers 've replaced hard drives modems installed math co processes , bit league without docs , i'm really lost anyone could give help , 'd really appreciate n't get news regularly , help , please e mail passman world std com thanks
mct anl gov \( matt 2 \) subject help 3c503 ncsa telnet organization argonne national laboratory , argonne , illinois x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 8 help ! i'm trying configure ncsa telnet v2 3 05 work 3c503 ethernet board use ftp fine , whenever attempt use telnet , machine hangs blank screen blinking green cursor ideas \? please e mail mct anl gov mtu edu
oulu fi \( vesa matti \) subject diamond stealth 24 giving 9 4 winmarks \? reply westes netcom com 's message 19 apr 93 18 56 49 gmt lines 7 organization real life , inc stealth 24 row dip switches back plane \? , older revision board winmark results absolutely normal later revision b board benchmarks 13 15 million winmarks \( least mine 486dx 50 toy \) v
aludra usc edu \( jimmy huang \) subject q connor pc jumper settings organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 16 nntp posting host aludra usc edu anyone knows answer hand , please answer e mail quickly \) pair jumpers one side , set 3 4 end one labeled , sync , one cd , e0 e1 e2 need short , disconnect get drive operate slave mode \? give label geographic label , quite jumpers , n't wanna try trial error method using ide think drive scsi compatible jimmy usc edu
bgsu edu \( jeremy \) subject help needed setting ncsa telnet w appletalk phonenet summary help organization bowling green state univ lines 21 okay , i'm trying install ncsa telnet couple \( okay , whole bunch \) machines 're true blue ibms either phonenet cards cards \( belive names correct \) well , docs telnet say 'll run appletalk driver , 've little success anyone succesfully installed telnet w appletalk , 'd like help config file telnet btw , please reply via e mail possible thanks , jeremy jeremy computer science undergrad bowling green state university andy bgsu edu student computer consultant thrilled os 2 2 0 user
luoma binah cc brandeis edu subject \( q \) scsi ide \( e 2 hard drives \) reply luoma binah cc brandeis edu organization brandeis university lines 20 please response directly \( luoma binah cc brandeis edu \) email sufficient number interesting responses , post summary \( april 24 25 \) mass scsi ide posting , missed answers question posted early anyone \( successfully \) put scsi ide hard drives system \? particularly interested scsi boot drive managed feat , would appreciate bit information , drives , scsi controller , \( possible \) motherboard bios \( plus relevant info \) thanks advance , robert luoma \( luoma binah cc brandeis \) flames stored worn drive
netcom com \( david \) subject recommendations local bus \( cache organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 85 penio penev \( penev rockefeller edu \) wrote maxtor 212mb isa ide controller , although machine dx2 66 vlb save transfer rate 0 647 mb regardless variations isa bus speed tested speed 5 5mhz 8 33mhz difference problem interface controller memory chris brinton \( brinton icd teradyne com \) wrote also dx2 66 maxtor 212 local bus ide controller \( generic \) get 985 kb tried swapping local bus ide controller isa ide controller transfer rate went 830 kb specs drive show maximum platter controller transfer rate 2 83 mb dont know get local bus interface got little , certainly much hoped also looking way deal ide transfer rates \? anybody getting throughput anywhere close platter controller rate \? n't seen anything even close 5mb sec limit ide interface drives 1 1 \( non interleaved \) , n't \? rates get 1 \) sequential read \( msdos c program uses bios calls read 64 sector blocks sequentially outside \( first \) track inward \) 8mhz bus 10mhz bus maxtor sec sec quantum sec sec 2 \) disk buffer read \( c program , reads block repeatedly effect reading ram buffer drive \) 8mhz bus 10mhz bus maxtor sec sec quantum sec sec 3 \) coretest v2 7 transfer rate \( seems agree \( 2 \) \) 8mhz bus 10mhz bus maxtor sec sec quantum sec sec managed get hold quantum lps240at product manual goes excrutiating detail describing bits get platter , controller , ide interface nowhere see anything like bits whipped platter high speed sit around buffer sent host \( even though swear 's whats happening \) relevent quotes manual data transferred disk read buffer rate 3 75 mb maximum , 1 minimum \( calculations show sec maximum sec minimum disk spins rpm 87 sectors per track outside 44 inside \) single burst errors 24 bits within one sector corrected 'on , real time occur , allowing high degree data integrity impact drive 's performance \( take mean error correction n't bottleneck \) page mode operations , data transfer rate buffer ram 10 0 mb high transfer rate allows interface ic communicate bus data transfer rate 5 0 mb , dcs simultaneously controls disk ram transfers thing even 's cache pre fetch 's sending requested sector \( 3 64kb read buffers pre fetching , guess could call cache \) sequential read outer tracks , getting sec getting around 3mb sec \? \? \? hard disk engineers know \? wondering disks slow , david ooo \( \) ooo david linux choice gnu generation netcom com 386 un x x11r5 openlook gcc tex free !
perry win tue nl \( perry egelmeers \) subject somebody create dos 6 0 faq , please \? \( dos 6 0 question \) organization eindhoven university technology , netherlands lines 9 distribution world nntp posting host win tue nl hi , think time create ms dos 6 0 faq since lots questions actually flooding net wo n't able write self lack time knowledge experience perry egelmeers
ic sunysb edu \( edward \) subject ide vs scsi \( go \) organization state university new york stony brook lines 13 nntp posting host ic sunysb edu article 1993apr16 mnemosyne cs du edu smace nyx cs du edu \( scott mace \) writes n't belive said busmastering vlbus pick back issue pc week tested vlbus , eisa isa busmastering cards recall issue \? posted message related back provoke argument could get straight dope article would probably give definitive answers want ed ic sunysb edu
fragante unixg ubc ca \( gv fragante \) subject winjet accelerator card organization university british columbia lines 10 nntp posting host unixg ubc ca 3ef unix portal com wil shell portal com \( ville v walveranta \) writes winjet video card 's printer accelerator manufactured \( eden prairie , mn \) know 's winjet laserjet 's also winjet accelerator video card probably available us , sure marketed canada thought guys would heard thing
hwstock snll llnl gov \( stockman w \) subject pentium clock counts organization sandia national laboratories lines 7 anyone list clock counts pentium instructions know integer 1 tick \? thanks , hw stockman , hwstock sandia llnl gov
poe wharton upenn edu subject amd i486 clones legal us \? ! \? ! \? ! organization university pennsylvania lines 7 nntp posting host fred wharton upenn edu friend mine called phone told cnn saw report ruling prohibiting amd selling i486 clones thrown , making legal amd ship us anyone verify \? thanks advance phil
spf trw com \( jeff wright \) subject need pinouts ext db25 floppy connectors , please organization trw sensor data processing center , redondo beach , ca distribution ca lines 20 hi , first posting , gentle zenith external floppy db25 connector , 'd like use sharp toshiba laptops , also take db25 ext floppy , n't work pinouts zenith , would like make adapters use anyone pinouts db25 ext floppy connectors \? would greatly appreciate info , either e mail fax thanks much , jeff , aka coyote trw com fax \( 310 \) 882 jeff wright \( spf trw com \) phone \( 213 \) 812 fax \( 213 \) 812 trw , one space park o2 1769 , redondo beach , ca
balog eniac seas upenn edu \( eric j balog \) subject diamond stealth 24 giving 9 4 winmarks \? organization university pennsylvania lines 9 nntp posting host eniac seas upenn edu hi ! posting winmark results , good idea give version winbench used obtain scores , well resolution tested version drivers eric balog balog eniac seas upenn edu
russell ersys edmonton ab ca \( russell schulz \) subject 16550 uarts \( windows \) reply russell ersys edmonton ab ca \( russell schulz \) organization private system , edmonton , ab , canada x newsreader rusnews v1 03 lines 14 turtle west darkside com \( fred \) writes stupid ! actually , , sense hardware solutions software problem proper programmer 's function much deleted amazing could find one reference waffle followups redirected russell schulz russell ersys edmonton ab ca ersys !
decnet lockheed com subject ca n't get 1280x1024 work w 2m ati ultra pro lines 25 nntp posting host rdd lmsc lockheed com organization lockheed palo alto research labs article 1993apr19 aio jsc nasa gov , mancus sweetpea jsc nasa gov \( keith mancus \) writes unable get gateway 486dx2 66 run windows 1280x1024 ordered 2m ati ultra pro , i'm pretty sure 2m really select 1024x768x65536 matter flex program ati 's program group , 1280x1024 remains ghosted windows 3 1 , build 59 drivers , dos 5 0 drivers installed gateway , , perhaps 's file missing hard drive runs 1024x768 fine go desktop window select 1280x1024 sometimes refuses \( ghosted \) , time accepts , hit ok enter desktop , 's back 1024x768 time 1280x1024 main flex window help ! keith , problem getting 256 colors \( stuck 16 \) even though flex stuff said 1024 256 solved entering window flex program pannel changing sorry , hope helps btw , gw2000 66v 1m ati gup matt sexton sexton claes space lockheed com
rash access digex com \( wayne rash \) subject 17 monitors organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 21 nntp posting host access digex net mikey eukanuba wpd sgi com \( mike yang \) writes article hp2 access digex net , rash access digex com \( wayne rash \) writes f550iw optimized windows powers screen appears , powers turn computer , meets swedish standards 's also protected emi adjacent monitors thanks info personally , think f550i bang buck right much f550iw cost \? mike yang silicon graphics , inc mikey sgi com 415 390 1786 think difference 400 dollars , could wrong things change press time publication
olson anchor esd sgi com \( dave olson \) subject much pay scsi cable \( 3 4 connectors \) \? organization silicon graphics , inc mountain view , ca lines 21 hub com danj hub com \( dan jones \) writes also , seem remember posting saying scsi spec calls 1 foot devices cable , cables get \( internal \) n't meet spec scsi ii draft proposal , rev 10h , section 4 2 1 single ended cable , cable requirements section , implementor 's note stub clustering avoided spaced least 0 3 meters apart non technical , scsi devices \) however , also aware implementor 's notes basicly recommendations , part spec others noted , many vendors \( including sgi \) violate indeed , main point reduce impedance changes , therefore reflections , therefore bus let one tell silence gives consent , dave olson whoever silent silicon graphics , inc maria olson sgi com
mac1 isis msstate edu \( mubashir cheema \) subject 2 printers pc lan \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? summary 2 printers keywords 2 printers nntp posting host isis msstate edu organization mississippi state university lines 15 recently plunged pc world using amigas trying establish network \( lan \) could use 2 different printers panasonic printing receipts okidata letters etc possible world \? know using unix etc specify printer print sure pcs would handle ca n't guess 'll leave good move unix mubashir cheema communications ph \( 601 \) 323 fax \( 601 \) 324 500 russell street , suite 20 email mac1 ra msstate edu starkville , ms 39759
co rmit oz au \( mark gregory \) subject avi file format \? summary avi file format \? keywords avi file format \? organization royal melbourne institute technology lines 21 nntp posting host cse rmit edu au hi , would someone please email \( post \) avi \( microsoft \) file format wish research using format , disks available video clips interesting sound video thank mark gregory lecturer gregory rmit edu au ph \( 03 \) fax \( 03 \) royal melbourne institute technology , department communication electronic engineering , p box , melbourne , victoria , 3001 australia mark gregory lecturer gregory rmit edu au ph \( 03 \) fax \( 03 \) royal melbourne institute technology , department communication electronic engineering , p box , melbourne , victoria , 3001 australia
westes netcom com \( estes \) subject utility switch cap locks ctrl keys organization mail group x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 9 big fan official ibm keyboards , ps 2 keyboard attached clone computer want know software utility used switch locations ctrl cap locks keys even better , ibm third party make ctrl cap lock key replacements used visually switch keys well \? estes internet westes netcom com
k4bnc cbnewsh cb att com \( john siegel \) subject ca n't set com4 organization distribution usa keywords g2k lines 15 unable get com 4 work diagnostic programs msd show nothing installed think software options ok known hardware conflict workaround cd rom system g2k 486dx2 66 tower ati video card ports set follows board coma com1 irq4 external device internal modem com 3 irq5 port card primary port com 2 irq3 mouse board com b com 4 irq 9 work run boot disk command com eliminate suggestions call technical support \? john siegel k4bnc cbnewsh att com jas hr att com
jim johnson abcd houghton mi us \( jim johnson \) subject run box w cover \? \? organization amiga central dispatch lines 25 b \( interested getting pulse group regarding b \( extended operation g2k 486 33v cover removed b \( enclosure reasons considering b \( , including quick access jumpers complex card b \( setups b \( concern without complete enclosure direct b \( cooling flow air fan , hot spots may develop b \( motherboard elsewhere adequate supply air moving system \( offices homes positive ventilation \) generally run system without cover extended periods without problem \( i'm talking completely removing cover leaving slots uncovered \) however , biggest reason cover begin rf operating system without full cover may create problems equipment neighbor 's tv ham radio station much eyes law slmr 2 1a remember 're tools , way life ! via v0 71a
fraser sfu ca \( gabriel noah jones \) subject zip later version \? keywords mem organization simon fraser university , burnaby , b c , canada lines 1
jay com \( jay thompson \) subject dos 6 0 organization lines 16 know two people stories dos 6 0 's 100 people know dos 6 0 reformat disks start one drive compress work fine , compress c thing choke , spit warning , hang left either drive autoexec bat config sys calls microsoft met busy signals reformatting drive , i'm sure guts reinstall 6 0 stay known entity may marginal drive , however , upgrade failed , format floppy disk 6 0 , format drive , reinstall make claims since driving time , however , careful make sure back important things interested people similar success stories
ecs umass edu subject hayes 9600 external ac pins \? \? \? lines 7 hello , hayes 9600 cables manuals modem requires source ac , know connect power source 3 pin connector know top pin ground , would guess two ac pins , right \? hints , please e mail , really need help thanks ! ! ! duc n
david reeve sward sward cmu edu subject amd i486 clones legal us \? ! \? ! \? ! organization sophomore , math computer science , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 15 nntp posting host andrew cmu edu reply 1993apr19 1 wharton upenn edu excerpts netnews comp sys ibm pc hardware 19 apr 93 amd i486 clones legal poe wharton upenn edu friend mine called phone told cnn saw report ruling prohibiting amd selling i486 clones thrown , making legal amd ship us anyone verify \? 's true read article clarinet \( ca n't send though \) u district court judge william , san francisco , threw jury verdict prohibiting amd using microcode 486 david sward sward cmu edu finger email pgp public key fingerprint e5 16 82 b0 3c 96 db 6f b2 fb dc 8f 82 cb e9 45 stop big brother chip say clipper wiretap chip !
merle acns nwu edu \( tracy \) subject 486sx sale nntp posting host acns nwu edu organization northwestern university , evanston illinois distribution usa lines 7 486sx 20 , 5 megs ram , 85 meg harddrive \( stacked 160 w stacker 3 0 \) , 3 5 floppy , 3 expansion slots , 2 drive bays , vga card , monitor 650 00 interesting combination cash trade located chicago please e mail address \( merle acns nwu edu \) call \( 312 \) 743 thanks
csulb edu \( steve la \) subject cdrom audio cable lines 10 organization cal state long beach distribution usa looking cdrom audio cable connect toshiba 3401b \( l r audio \) pro audio spectrum 16 sound card thanks advance pointers steve steve la \) \( \) \) \) network manager \) \) csulb edu \( \) \) \) \( 310 \) 985 calstate university long beach , 1250 blvd long beach , ca
richk grebyn com \( richard krehbiel \) subject ide vs scsi reply bgrubb dante nmsu edu 's message 18 apr 1993 19 30 47 gmt lines 14 organization grebyn timesharing , inc article dns1 nmsu edu bgrubb dante nmsu edu \( grubb \) writes richk grebyn com \( richard krehbiel \) writes stuff connection ide ida 8mhz clock , 16 bit width , 5mb sec ide speed come ida 8 3mb sighted ide come \? well , quick math part shows 8 bus , 16 bits wide , performing transfer every two clock cycles provide 8 3m bytes sec someone said really takes 3 clock cycles perform transfer , reduces transfer rate 5 5mb , commonly used figure isa bus speed however , believe two clock transfer possible \( 0 wait states \) richard krehbiel richk grebyn com os 2 2 0 amigados 386 comes along
bsardis netcom com \( barry sardis \) subject date stuck organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 39 jamesc netcom com \( james chuang \) writes leave radio night , may anything useful computers something useful even front ms dos windoze know schedule tasks mean computers shut every night bet starting nt every morning means good coffee break jamesc someone asks god , say yes ! addition startup time , leave things running pc doubles fax machine however , original subject n't get replies bios , cmos , dos clock date logic know 've running way many months recently , last month , noticed intermittent clock problem stated , always date n't roll forward , sometimes notice clock several minutes behind ought unattended , following generally running minimized win 3 1 clock , winfax pro 3 0 , print manager , ms word 1 1 , file manager , program manager random screen saver generally running barry sardis home \( 408 \) 448 laurie avenue office \( 408 \) 448 7404 san jose , ca 95125 fax \( 408 \) 448 7404 email bsardis netcom com 1210 compuserve com
zrdf01 trc amoco com \( rusty \) subject 17 monitors reply zrdf01 trc amoco com organization amoco production company , tulsa research lines 11 anyone taken look new viewsonic 17 \? claim 1280x1024 76hz compare t560i terms price , quality display \? living tulsa time rusty trc amoco com amoco production research uunet ! ! zrdf01 p box phone \( 918 \) 660 tulsa , ok fax 918 660
com \( tim king \) subject gateway 2000 booting floppy organization ground zero lines 17 x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 gateway 4dx 33v 3 5 inch floppy drive accidentally discovered floppy one particular box drive boot , rather getting non system diskette message , machine hangs cmos gets overwritten \( luckily , gateway sends print standard cmos settings systems \) happens box pre formatted fuji disks , disks cause problem format one fuji disks , problem goes away virus scan \( scan v1 02 \) disks found nothing anyone idea going \? hardware problem \? virus ca n't detected \? system reading garbage boot sector \? tim king , com
taybh hpsgm2 sgp hp com \( beng hang tay \) subject vl bus hdd fdd controller ide hdd fdd controller \? organization hp singapore notes server lines 20 hi , buying quantum lps240at 245 mb hardisk deciding hdd fdd controller 32 bit vl bus hdd fdd controller faster 16 bit ide hdd fdd controller card \? hear vl bus controller slower ide controller \? one true \? please shed light email post thanks lot best regards , beng hang tay telnet 520 singapore networks operation phone \( 65 \) 279 hewlett packard singapore ltd fax \( 65 \) 272 1150 depot road internet taybh hpsgm2 sgp hp com singapore republic singapore
luke eecs wsu edu \( hj lu \) subject debugging possible hardware problems article serval 1993apr20 organization washington state university ! lines 54 article senator bedfellow mit edu jfc athena mit edu \( john f carr \) writes i'm running linux 80486 eisa system , i'm think hardware problems could software , n't see 'd one trouble 'd like advice best debug symptom try build gcc , get unpredictable results sometimes file valid format file gives valid binary sometimes compiler dumps core , works fine run input compiling source files arguments gives slight differences object files \( note linux , unlike many systems , put object files compiling twice give bit identical results \) also occasional filesystem corruption scsi drive , could caused using development software could also related problems compiling compile problems caused disk problems get results whether work ide scsi disk 've set memory speed cache write speed recommended values recommended , dos \? junk suspect external cache , real evidence motherboard nice super eisa 256 kb write back cache dx 2 66 mhz processor i'm looking system test program run dos linux linux gcc fire gcc compile kernel time running x11r5 suggestions cause problem bad memory , bad motherboard , bad cache suggestions debug problem change wait state ram turn turbo change bus speed swap ram h j
michael jester gun de \( michael gerhards \) distribution world subject 's diff mouse sys com \? \? x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 organization private coherent system lines 20 gw wmich edu wrote 's difference loading mouse com autoexec bat device mouse sys config sys \? \? difference time driver gets loaded mouse sys loaded config sys therefor command com mouse com loaded autoexec bat command com one better \? mouse com could started booting could perhaps unloaded , driver loaded working drivers totally ran dos , preferred loading drivers autoexec bat , programs wo n't run drivers could choose ones needed startup , advantage gone , drdos lets choose config sys drivers loaded michael michael jester gun de michael gerhards preussenstrasse 59 germany 4040 neuss voice 49 2131 82238
michael jester gun de \( michael gerhards \) distribution world subject help ! ten beeps 386 40 \( ami bios \) x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 organization private coherent system lines 9 g wayne nichols \( troi cc rochester edu \) wrote 386 40 motherboard ami bios multiple reboots , gives 10 beeps sits \? referring manual motherboard ami bios , 10 beeps shutdown register read write , system stops beeps system continues , michael michael jester gun de michael gerhards preussenstrasse 59 germany 4040 neuss voice 49 2131 82238
central \( c young \) subject weitek p9000 future plans organization massachusetts institute technology lines 12 distribution world nntp posting host central mit edu article uni koblenz de 19 apr 1993 10 12 31 gmt wrote article 1993apr13 weitek com robert weitek com \( robert \) writes article uni koblenz de hodgen ozzy uni koblenz de \( wayne hodgen \) writes sum , accelerated board 4mb vram \( true colour 1280x1024 \) fast vga side available 500 , buy one supermac announced new line pc accelerated cards 1024x768 24bit color start 999 retail n't think wait long
cs1442au news uta edu \( cs1442au \) subject reboot problem organization university texas arlington lines 38 usma1 usma edu tue apr 20 10 28 47 1993 received usma1 usma edu usma edu \( 4 1 smi 4 1 \) id tue , 20 apr 93 11 27 50 edt received usma1 usma edu \( 5 51 25 \) id tue , 20 apr 93 11 20 18 edt message id usma1 usma edu date tue , 20 apr 93 11 20 17 edt usma1 usma edu \( david cdt \) cs1442au uta edu subject problem status running unisys dos 6 problem , even dos 5 0 , emm386 loaded ca n't ctl alt del , computer beeps times rapidly hangs use obscure reset \( requires screwdriver pencil \) power switch reboot anyone solution problem \? e mail usma1 usma edu dave thanks , dave david internet usma1 usma edu u military academy jason brown cs1442au uta edu fav player sierra
cck coventry ac uk \( colin paterson \) subject sound blaster midi nntp posting host cc sysk organization society terminally hard thinking lines 30 hi , i'm currently process writing number pd programs sound blaster first voice editor hopefully going available soon \( soon get ftp site \) anyway next stage use midi port enter music play fm synth remotely problem little info sb midi port tried using sound blaster freedom project routines , however results port locking couple accesses loss note velocity data byte using turbo c would grateful info source fragments may help berlin summer saw book seemed information , german poor say least , anyone book could please mail second request help concerns standard file formats \( file format standard keep secret \? \) need know file format instrument bank files roland music files finally anyone source displaying pcx gif files ega vga monitors please help , know makes sense colin
ug cs dal ca \( 'the last \) subject sending null character across ethernet nntp posting host ug cs dal ca organization math , stats cs , dalhousie university , halifax , ns , canada x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 10 question regarding sending null character across ethernet connection actual problem emacs \( unix \) needs null character setting mark unfortunately n't know sent ibm pcs across ethernet wondering knows keyboard combination sending null character btw control , shift 2 ctrl work thanks
mulvey blurt oswego edu \( allen mulvey , suny , oswego , ny \) subject ca n't set com4 distribution usa organization suny college oswego , oswego , ny lines 28 article 67 cbnewsh cb att com , k4bnc cbnewsh cb att com \( john siegel \) writes unable get com 4 work diagnostic programs msd show nothing installed think software options ok known hardware conflict workaround cd rom system g2k 486dx2 66 tower ati video card ports set follows board coma com1 irq4 external device internal modem com 3 irq5 port card primary port com 2 irq3 mouse board com b com 4 irq 9 work run boot disk command com eliminate suggestions call technical support \? john siegel k4bnc cbnewsh att com jas hr att com problem time ago automatically install com3 com4 port tables programs like modem programs write directly port work fine anything uses bios call fails find bbs ftp site get copy port finder put device pf sys config sys run pf com autoexec bat little program locate existing ports make sure bios tables updated works great pf also let swap ports also value allen mulvey mulvey blurt oswego edu
juno jpl nasa gov \( kent \) subject need advice select sound card \? keywords sound card nntp posting host juno jpl nasa gov organization jpl lines 32 hi , need advice netland selecting sound card buy sound card kid n't know one buy one select following list sound blaster 16 sound card audio spectrum sound blaster pro sound blaster allocated budget around 250 could know sound cards help select appropriate one kid \? 486 33 mz opti mb also nec cdrom would like connect sound card thank kent juno jpl nasa gov
perry wswiop15 win tue nl \( perry egelmeers \) subject funet fi organization eindhoven university technology , netherlands lines 13 distribution world nntp posting host wswiop15 win tue nl vnet ibm com writes saw posting earlier refered funet fi directory pub msdos however , log funet fi cant even find pub directory let alone msdos directory ! ! ! ! someone tell i'm wrong \? \? perhaps try nic funet fi instead funet fi \? \? ! \? ! \? nic funet fi biggest \( \? \) ftp site europe , stuff available \( \? \) also available site big pool perry egelmeers
john wa3wbu uucp \( john \) subject ati build 59 drivers good \? summary ati organization wa3wbu , , pa lines 22 article austin ibm com , larryhow austin ibm com writes stable build 59 drivers \? people success installing running \? 've using drivers 4dx2 66v several weeks problems i'm running windows software 've run worked fine includes many games cd based multi media encyclopedia , full motion video works fine 'd recommend give try john john , wa3wbu uucp uunet ! wa3wbu ! john packet wa3wbu
unix2 tcd ie \( gregory \) subject gamecards summary gamecards keywords gamecards nntp posting host unix2 tcd ie organization trinity college , dublin lines 15 , 16mhz , 2mb ram machine finding slow certain games x wing computer store day saw series gamecards claim speed machine ! wondering anyone similar machine bought one seen one gamecards whether actually work ! help would much appreciated , thanks advance , greg man lies murders part world \?
pastor vfl paramax com \( jon pastor \) subject 32 bit box gateway nntp posting host organization much lines 20 got gw2000 gateway aol com x mailer america online mailer pastor vfl paramax com subject 32 bit disk access date mon , 29 mar 93 14 26 45 est message id aol com status ro jon get 32bit access windows edit system ini look section add line give need thanks \) regards , scot \( \) gateway 2000
cs3sd3ae maccs mcmaster ca \( holly ks \) subject eric bosco \? nntp posting host maccs dcss mcmaster ca organization department computer science , mcmaster university lines 4 eric , send email address , lost ! 've ! kevin
murthy asl dl nec com \( vasudev murthy \) subject pcs gateway opinions sought nntp posting host organization nec america , inc irving , texas distribution usa lines 25 sorry beaten death forum looking seriously buying 486 dx 33 gateway probably buy without monitor , 've heard negative stuff gateway monitors 've also heard tough get technical support i'm seeking opinions whether wise go ahead based criteria price , warranty service , general system , reliability machine gateway , please advise ! ! thanks advance ! vasudev murthy vasudev murthy opinions expressed strictly murthy asl dl nec com nothing \( 214 \) 518 advanced switching lab , nec america , inc 1525 walnut hill lane irving tx
cae wisc edu \( buddy \) subject summary doubledisk gold v 6 0 organization u wisconsin madison college engineering lines 98 hi netters , promised , summary opinions doubledisk gold v 6 0 people seem quite happy product much opinion good compared industry leader stacker 3 0 \( superstor pro considered since slower stacker although reliable byte magazine 's conclusion \) \) , 's hard make decision go stacker doubledisk gold v6 0 however , seems 39 95 , quite buy buddy buddy optics ece wisc edu summary replies hello buddy , dd gold 6 0 experience ordered currently dd 2 3 \( last version \) pleased performance suggestion 1 \) compression software currently , would go dos 6 0 's compression discussion net indicates 50 get compression \( built os \) , plus utilities would pay way 50 besides , dos6 0 \( whatever means \) 2 \) doubledisk 2 3 already \( like \) , cost 29 95 upgrade thinking asking net , decided could go wrong update cost ! never suffered performance dd 12ms hd large sw packages compressed uncompressed format works great delays think better b arguements lot bunk comparable performance looking forward able dd sw annoyance 3 \) stacker , et al currently , would see worth effort upgrade 02 regards , mark buddy , got mailer 2 weeks ago got installed documentation , opinion , easy follow used automatic installation \( custom \) everything went smoothly specific instructions readme file dealing 386max qemm uninstall \( unlike dos6 0 \) need system hard drive installing 5mb free free pretty good statistics considering 8mb permanent windows swap file stayed uncompressed portion \( along drivers \) problems whatsoever noticed slowdown \( takes little longer boot \) either windows dos far happy bruce bruce f never know 're going dsd es com need good piece rope software technical support engineer sam evans sutherland computer corp mail , opinions using doubledisk gold little month 486dx 33mhz , 120mb seagate drive , running dos windows 386 enhanced mode ran tests concluded speed doubledisk drive drive read cache equal bare drive without cache complaints reliability easy install problem castle 3 assumed game trying bypass dos disk access moved game non compressed region disk since game never given problem never damage doubledisk drive compression performance whole disk held steady around 1 8 1 lower expected 20 \( size \) files compressed image files large zip files specific questions let know dan bought happy use mfm ide 40 mb drives using doubledisk gold came product msdos 6 0 shipping problems either product ron pogo den mmc com end messages
athena qualcomm com \( robert kimball \) subject vlb bus master problem \? summary problem vlb bus master devices \? keywords vlb bus master controller scsi organization qualcomm , inc , san diego , ca lines 16 nntp posting host athena qualcomm com trying put together new pc vesa local bus would like get vlb cards video scsi heard problem bus mastering controllers vlb something effect actually slow system anyone heard problem \? specifically , interested ultrastor 34f vlb scsi controller shell bucks thing would like get straight scoop someone knows anyone controller \? problems \? bob kimball qualcomm com
biernat rtsg mot com \( tim biernat \) subject 32 bit box gateway nntp posting host organization motorola , inc , cellular infrastructure group lines 29 article 1993apr16 cv hp com scott hpcvccl cv hp com \( scott linn \) writes playing around gateway 2000 local bus machine last night , became apparent windows 3 1 n't give option 32 bit access virtual memory using permanent swap file , disk drive local bus interface expected , investigating 32 bit option appears \? need massage switches system ini virtual memory section , flip switch associated driver \( \) switch enable 32bit access , sure use , hard drives controllers support ! seriously fast disk access 1 \) throw windoze 2 \) install os 2 weekend os 2 incredible finally real os humble pc \) tim
edm wrs com \( ed mcclanahan \) subject 1280x1024 ati ultra w nanao 550i nntp posting host chaos organization wind river systems , inc lines 22 mancus sweetpea jsc nasa gov \( keith mancus \) writes reference running ati 's install program using functions position size images various resolutions thought neat feature noticed image sized , scanning frequency necessarily changed causes digital monitors like mag get confused mode use frequency gets far standard selections reason , use factory defaults position size ati card adjust mode individually \( first time \) monitor mag \( many monitors \) \( \) ability recall settings next time mode detected edward mcclanahan edm wrs com
subject dos 6 0 faculty coe edu \( wallace \) organization college engineering nntp posting host 157 182 80 85 lines 10 know two people stories dos 6 0 's 100 people know dos 6 0 reformat disks start used standard installation program put ms dos 6 0 machine stacker 3 0 already installed problems kept stacker , rather switch pleased memory gained since memory manager also like multiple boot feature
ke kimmell vax cns muskingum edu \( kevin kimmell computer science german undergrad \) subject null modem cable \? organization muskingum college lines 13 interrested simple concept null modem cable \( actually idea , n't count last statement \) i'm asking pins use \( 's specifications \? \) want solder one instead buying one n't even know port used help please \( ke kimmell vax cns muskingum edu \) kevin p i'm intending use cable pc pc transfers \( via lap link telix ideas info gladly accepted \)
jcl bdrc bd com \( john c \) subject kentucky fried cmos beats ! organization becton dickinson research center rtp , n c lines 37 nntp posting host otis bdrc bd com hey folks possible short cmos chip \? think mine fried symptoms following get computer \( gateway 486dx33 \) boot turn power disconnect battery cmos chip turn power get setup upon getting cmos configuration error set cmos exit setup f10 \( phoenix bios \) ignore diskette 0 seek error press f1 computer boots normally hard drives accessible floppy drives back network , need reboot , turn computer repeat steps simply ctl alt del , computer hangs memory test sound like cmos chip fried \? buy another one \? \? thank kind attention john john c , becton dickinson research center , rtp , nc , usa jcl bdrc bd com
email sps mot com \( \) subject wanted opinions insight talon ta 1000 ta 2000 multimedia kits nntp posting host 223 7 248 49 organization motorola inc , austin , texas lines 47 might familiar insight distribution network , inc multimedia kits i'm seriously considering buying insight talon ta 2000 mm kit , bundled cd rom drive 265 access time , dtr , , multi session photo cd capability , etc , pas 16 sound card , etc \( familiar insight , know kit mean \) believe drive either texel \( \) nec \( \) , clear one actually part bundle \( least two sales people could n't give straight answer one ah , yes , one drawbacks oem ! \) questions excuse ignorance , texel reputable maker cd rom market \? think nec better drive \? bottom line kit worth money \? \( currently , 449 ta 1000 , 699 ta 2000 \) alternatively , thinking ta 2000 might overkill uses \( however , want full multimedia capabilities , photo cd stuff , educational programs kids , etc \) , considered lower end ta 1000 kit using difference \( around 250 00 \) get something else useful , like tape back drive unit basically , would like hear actually used kits , whatever pros cons might advise , preferably directly email address thanks , 2 nippon motorola ltd email sps mot com note opinions expressed herein mine , reflect opinions policies motorola inc affiliates
kushmer bnlux1 bnl gov \( christopher kushmerick \) subject hot cpu \? organization national laboratory distribution na lines 15 hot cpu 486 33 dx machine \? currently gets hot hold finger 0 5 keep big fan blowing , considering using heat sink advice \? chris kushmerick kushmer bnlux1 bnl gov found niche life , n't fit
catone compstat wharton upenn edu \( tony catone \) subject 17 monitors organization university pennsylvania lines 12 nntp posting host compstat wharton upenn edu reply zrdf01 trc amoco com 's message 20 apr 93 15 56 06 gmt article ere trc amoco com zrdf01 trc amoco com \( rusty \) writes anyone taken look new viewsonic 17 \? claim 1280x1024 76hz compare t560i terms price , quality display \? i'm interested new viewsonic 17 well anyone seen one monitors flesh \? tony
westes netcom com \( estes \) subject mounting cpu cooler vertical case organization mail group x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 13 installed dx2 66 cpu clone motherboard , tried mounting cpu cooler chip 1 2 hour , weight cooler enough cpu mount ended bending pins cpu , luckily power yet ended pressing cpu deeply socket putting cpu cooler back far good others problem \? ensure weight cpu fan heatsink eventually work cpu socket mounting motherboard vertical case \? estes internet westes netcom com
korenek nmti com \( gary korenek \) subject hint 486 vlb isa eisa motherboard keywords 486 , motherboard organization network management technology inc distribution usa lines 26 article news iastate edu schauf iastate edu \( brian j schaufenbuel \) writes looking buying companion brand vlb isa eisa motherboards hint chipsets anybody experience board \( good bad \) \? information would helpful ! thanks brian j schaufenbuel believe vl eisa isa motherboard uses hint chipset limited 24 bit eisa dma \( 'real' eisa dma 32 bit \) hint eisa dma 16 mb ram addressing limitation isa reason would pass one \( hawk vl eisa isa \) look ing replace exactly reason please double check words , call motherboard manufacturer ask motherboard supports true 32 bit eisa dma limitation , motherboard works quite well \( using mine dos 5 , windows 3 1 , unix 2 \) also adaptec 1742a eisa scsi host adapter gary korenek \( korenek nmti com \) network management technology incorporated sugar land , texas \( 713 \) 274 5357
andrew frip wv tek com \( andrew klossner \) subject soundblaster irq port settings reply andrew frip wv tek com organization tektronix color printers , wilsonville , oregon lines 19 lpt1 , com1 , disk controller call devices devices requires exclusive interrupt ownership , eg disk controller \( i6 \) keyboard \( i1 \) also devices require exclusive ownership , ie share interrupt another device , eg lpt1 standard isa bus , one almost non laptop pcs use , two separate interface cards cannot share interrupt due screwup bus design example , soundblaster wants drive interrupt number 7 , must hold certain bus wire 0 1 times , depending whether wants interrupt precludes letting another card assert interrupt number 7 two devices isa bus pc share interrupt , 's 're implemented single card andrew klossner \( andrew frip wv tek com \)
spk hp com \( mike \) subject zeos computers organization hewlett packard x newsreader tin version 1 1 4 pl6 lines 19 zeos couple months experience painless perfect , way better endured \( 7 people personally know \) ordered gateways \( course , several gateway buyers rewarded getting free stuff gateway ca n't seem keep track n't sent b \) got 1 mb viper card first one defective , zeos replaced minor hassles one works fine n't noticed problems applications also ordered complaints ati months ago guess choose either buggy state art stuff , robust average stuff particular configuration \( tower , 300 watt supply , pkg 3 , monitor , viper , etc \) zeos slightly cheaper gateway , austin , etc change month month mike
cis unf edu \( larry henson \) subject ibm link imagewriter help ! ! organization university north florida , lines 10 hello , trying hook apple imagewriter ibm clone seem problem configuring lpt port accept adjust baud , parity , etc fit system \? tried mode , work anyone help , post e mail thanx abort , retry , format \? ! \? ! \? doctor , give trust ! i'm scientist ! larry henson
damien student cwru edu \( damien neil \) subject hot cpu \? organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 16 distribution na nntp posting host student cwru edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 christopher kushmerick \( kushmer bnlux1 bnl gov \) wrote hot cpu 486 33 dx machine \? currently gets hot hold finger 0 5 seem recall 486s run somewhere close boiling point water anyone exact temperature \? anyway , putting cpu fan heat sink wo n't hurt could help depends paranoid damien neil po cwru edu someone reality , best case western reserve university quick patch eeap linux choice gnu generation erik green
robert weitek com \( robert \) subject orchid p9000 vs fahrenheit \( mini review \) organization weitek corporation , sunnyvale ca lines 102 article 1993apr16 adobe com sherwood adobe com \( geoffrey sherwood \) writes going modern trend , orchid p9000 card supports 16 colors 640x480 mode without driver course , breaks dos program uses svga modes \( like cd roms \) case rom p9000 supports vesa modes 1024x768 256 colors vesa compliant applications trouble setting modes \( i'm forwarding posting software group , case ca n't careful \) doubt applications failing run lots stuff depends figuring exact svga 're looking , n't use vesa calls \( vesa still pretty new \) every new chip set confuses supported resolutions really annoy 1280x1024 75hz tell driver nec 5fg \( six monitors listed plus , choose generic ca n't get high refreshes \) 1024x768 limited 70hz seems hardware able support bandwidth \( 75hz 1280 sure able 1024 ! \) higher vertical resolution main reason bought card orchid f vlb currently , hz well think go least 76 hz , maybe \( 's function ramdac speed , power 9000 \) need fix problems 've noted \( already list \) 're really interested , though , take look text file dat , holds data choices p9000 monitor installation program built working analogy , build new monitor definition right combinations refresh rates monitors keep backup copy file ! 've built new version dat file , run p9000 installation program , inst , new choices show \( assumes weitek v 2 2 drivers tell rev number looking modification time driver 02 20 version 2 20 microsoft uses gimmick , \) board faster ofvlb things according hercules speedy program program tests various operations reports results pixels second n't numbers graphite card , close half ofvlb \( ie , slower \) running 20mhz 386 , isa , numbers n't really comparable following numbers obtained using 486 , 33 mhz , air motherboard \( chipset \) , 8 mb memory give ranges program reports numbers computes , tend jump around bit speedy benchmark put hercules iit , knowledge motivations except making hercules graphite iit card look really good 'd take numbers ton salt \( texas instruments thing wintach , trying make look good compared 8514 , anyone cared \) 's safer \( though safe \) use benchmarks unbiased sources , testing labs , columnists , etc interestingly , solid vectors shaded polygons show improvement , polygons \( ie , filled cross hatching \) \( whatever graphics operations like xors maybe \? \? \? \? \) dead loss 9000 think 'll large discrepancy results speedy results anything else universe things give two numbers 9000 fonts , think caching fonts first drawn screen done fairly slowly 1 3 speed ofvlb speed increases dramatically sounds like programming benchmark font caching perfectly legitimate optimization windows hooks built right gdi 's kind silly iit 's use hardwired quick brown fox jumped lazy dog sat tack string driver useless real applications , lacks programming bart simpson optimization , save bitmap recently drawn string screen memory , screen screen happen given string second time row \( call bart simpson optimization bart 's person see could right cheat benchmarks hundred times done half time would take actually form character \) make claims numbers mean anything saw ran computer normally n't write disclaimers , time maybe 'd better testing totally unconnected work \( program unix decstations \) done completely without knowledge , blessing , equipment company n't lawyers 're working intel used lawyer montana n't , died robert robert , robert weitek com pay attention man behind curtain , great glorious oz , spoken ! scene trade show
reza magellan ae utexas edu \( \) subject 2mb ati ultra pro 16 24 bit windows drivers work \? organization university texas austin lines 35 hi bought 486 dx2 66 gateway system 2 meg ati ultra pro video card everything seems work fine except windows drivers 800x600 24 bit , 800x600 1024x768 16 bit modes fonts icons start deteriorating windows startup , within minutes use , everything screen totally naturally , called gateway tech support inquire technician asked drivers , told version 1 5 , build 59 told 16 24 bit drivers ati ultra pro simply work ! ! ! true \? , i'm simply amazed could \? strange thing would expected see discussion \( unless subject made faq ! ! ! \) one suspicious point came later stated none windows accelerator boards working 16 24 bit drivers windows 3 1 easily challenged 've running diamond 24x 15 bit mode home 4 months , tested used 24 bit mode well backed said well , diamond working drivers much longer anyway , wanted see anyone else trouble feedback appreciated system configuration gateway 486 dx2 66 local bus 16 megs ram scsi hd cd rom ultrastor 34f local bus scsi controller ati ultra pro local bus 2mb vram dos 6 0 windows 3 1 mach 32 drivers version 1 5 \( build 59 \) thanks advance ali r reza magellan ae utexas edu
nho hydro com \( terje \) subject problems toshiba 3401 cdrom organization hydro lines 26 distribution world reply nho hydro com nntp posting host nho hydro com article 1993apr20 news columbia edu , imj1 cunixa cc columbia edu \( imad jureidini \) writes hi ! recently purchased toshiba 3401 cdrom adaptec 1542b scsi card , far failed get cdrom work dos works well os 2 , know drive faulty config sys , sys , sys , sys autoexec bat , mscdex , came dos 6 0 mscdex seems find install drive drive f , switch drive try dir , get error message telling drive ready something like cdrom locked , adaptec utilities n't seem recognize cdrom point anyone ever problem \? something missing \? finally , wondering anyone using setup could kindly post config sys autoexec bat hi ! one aspi drivers \( think 's \) supports , means reset scsi bus loads fixed problem friend mine adaptec 3401 regards , terje
panix com \( robert \) subject warp 10 board organization panix public access unix , nyc lines 11 've troubleshooting existence way many general protection faults 486 33 , eisa vlb , system point think 've narrowed problem video drivers warp 10 adapter national design , inc yet somehow find hard believe anyone else experiences board thanx , robert brooklyn , usa
jbuddenberg vax cns muskingum edu \( jimmy buddenberg \) subject get vesa controller card \? organization muskingum college lines 9 486dx 25mhz local bus would see much increase speed drives got vesa ide controller card \? need advice ! jimmy buddenberg internet jbuddenberg vax cns muskingum edu muskingum college
musica mcgill ca subject dma 's system using \? lines 10 nntp posting host vm1 mcgill ca organization mcgill university hello , small problem sound blaster pro game utility would tell dma 's system using \? thanks , mark brown
swh cup hp com \( steve \) subject need info diamond viper video card organization hewlett packard , cupertino lines 46 experiences diamond viper vlb video card several problems 1 \) ad specified 16 7 million colors 640x480 resolution 1mb vram , color depth supported video bios version 1 00 drivers version 1 01 max 65k colors supported 800x600 resolutions 1mb vram 2 \) 65k color choice notice two minor \) ndw , entry list highlighted \( open menu \) , faint vertical line often remains left edge highlighted rectangle used b \) word windows , use shading table , display shows inverse shading example , shade cell 10 , display 90 \( printout ok \) 3 \) big killer bug using borland c integrated development environment problem occurs click turbo debugger icon \( use debugger option run command \) , debugger application goes vga character mode \( designed \) screen goes haywire , largely unreadable turbo debugger display garbled trial error , found disrupted screen displayed alt followed letter r instructs turbo debugger refresh screen , satisfactorily wish n't bug diamond drivers disruptive behavior happens standard vga driver comes windows must something video card vga mode problem monitor bug shows use another monitor place usual one still like video card , hoping problems \( offer 5 year warranty \) swh , 20apr93
ultb isc rit edu \( r x getter \) subject put hd xt \? nntp posting host ultb gw isc rit edu organization rochester institute technology lines 12 may dumb question , need put hard drive father 's pc xt , either mfm , rll , ide know hook , tell computer geometry drive 386 , set bios , doubt 's 's done xt thought might software controller card , ide card xt 's saw n't come also , low level format 's computer \? \( assuming drive needs formatting \) , rob ultb isc rit edu
rrn po cwru edu \( robert r novitskey \) subject p24t organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 14 reply rrn po cwru edu \( robert r novitskey \) nntp posting host slc12 ins cwru edu hay anyone heard performance stats p24t wondering 's performance compared 486 66 pentium would info would helpful later bob robert novitskey rrn po cwru edu \( 216 \) 754 cwru ohio computer engineer c programmer seeking summer jobs
ikos netcom com \( ikos \) subject buy bios \? summary subject sez keywords bios , motherboard , phoenix , , microtimes organization netcom online communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) distribution ba lines 22 i'm market upgrade bios phoenix 1 10 \( got new hard disk , discovered bios n't type 47 \) would like know purchase one things checked motherboard manufacturer \( curious 's \) , hearing 60 figure prompted least try shop around problem , n't know shop around something like heard 's bios speciality shop south bay 's alleged advertise microtimes find microtimes , n't find ad shop , anybody help quest \? anybody replies thanks advance jeff chan opinions jeff ikos com \( ikos netcom com \) would quite silly ! netcom ! ikos ! jeff also company 's
skcgoh tartarus uwa edu au \( shaw goh \) subject non turbo speed organization university western australia lines 17 nntp posting host tartarus uwa edu au x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 nic percival \( \) \( nmp mfltd co uk \) wrote taken delivery 66mhz 486 dx2 machine , nice one query landmark speed turbo 230 something mhz thats problem problem speed turbo 7 mhz equivalent car terms nice porsche button turns anyone clue determines relative performance turbo vs non turbo \? \? would like set give landmark speed 30 40 mhz turbo cheers , turbo \( ie 33mhz \)
skcgoh tartarus uwa edu au \( shaw goh \) subject loopback connector made \? organization university western australia lines 12 nntp posting host tartarus uwa edu au x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 35002 4401 uwovax uwo ca wrote need know pins connect make loopback connector serial port build one loopback connector used test serial port thanks help steve ! ! ! ! ! ! ! skcgoh tartarus uwa edu au
schauf iastate edu \( brian j schaufenbuel \) subject hint 486 vlb isa eisa motherboard keywords 486 , motherboard organization iowa state university , ames , ia distribution usa lines 36 article id nmti com korenek nmti com \( gary korenek \) writes article news iastate edu schauf iastate edu \( brian j schaufenbuel \) writes looking buying companion brand vlb isa eisa motherboards hint chipsets anybody experience board \( good bad \) \? information would helpful ! thanks brian j schaufenbuel believe vl eisa isa motherboard uses hint chipset limited 24 bit eisa dma \( 'real' eisa dma 32 bit \) hint eisa dma 16 mb ram addressing limitation isa reason would pass one \( hawk vl eisa isa \) look ing replace exactly reason please double check words , call motherboard manufacturer ask motherboard supports true 32 bit eisa dma limitation , motherboard works quite well \( using mine dos 5 , windows 3 1 , unix 2 \) also adaptec 1742a eisa scsi host adapter gary korenek \( korenek nmti com \) network management technology incorporated sugar land , texas \( 713 \) 274 5357 correct ! motherboard manufacturer usually buy boards says problem fixed two weeks brian schaufenbuel brian j schaufenbuel art one government sooner learns 3644 halsted draining money pockets ames , ia people especially college students adam smith
csc canterbury ac nz \( nick fitzgerald , pc software consultant , csc , , nz \) subject 3 5 floppy reads wrote nntp posting host cantva canterbury ac nz reply nick fitzgerald n fitzgerald csc canterbury ac nz organization university canterbury , christchurch , new zealand lines 31 article netx com , netx com \( peter \) writes gateway 3 5 floppy drive reads files wrote floppy floppies formatted contain files machines unreadable also , 3 5 floppies written defective floppy drive long time ago also unreadable sounds like head alignment problem right ! one go fixing \? alignment screws adjust \? first thing make sure files floppies currently read drive , n't already hd another floppy \( two floppy drives \) get copied hd \( floppy drive \) n't fixing alignment problem files goodbye \( well , try drive back read floppies , n't count able ! \) generally , head alignment something 'd trust good repair shop \( though diy guides \) nick fitzgerald , pc applications consultant , csc , uni canterbury , n z n fitzgerald csc canterbury ac nz tel 64 \( 3 \) 364 , fax 64 \( 3 \) 364 2332
nyx cs du edu \( mike gordon \) subject gateway ethernet card drivers needed organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept lines 20 hi , could anybody please tell might able find device drivers couple older gateway ethernet cards \? n't model number hand , bnc connector , header connector novell keycard \( one one installed \) i'm looking using 2 node copy 10 net picked swap meet \( 'd love netware lite , i'm poor college student price right \) please reply via email , n't lot time news exams mike gordon nyx cs du edu
nyx cs du edu \( mike gordon \) subject info needed organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept lines 19 hi , i'm looking info regarding old \( maybe \) called little beauty 8088 z80 4 5 inch screen \( monochrome cga \) 2 360 floppies serial ports 2 db 15 connectors \( one labled \) ca n't figure pinouts also n't know standard com ports addressable com1 com2 figured 'll work dos 2 something anyone give pointers one , 'd appreciative please reply via email , ca n't keep news lately \( finals coming know \( \) thanks much , mike gordon nyx cs du edu
uxa cso uiuc edu \( tony 5 6 9b \) subject help hooking irwin tape drive pc keywords irwin tape backup , external unit , help organization university illinois urbana lines 11 would like thank people responded post would , however , like clear things tape drive external also , connector back male db 37 pin variety result , cannot easily find cost effective solution use drive advice greatly appreciated would prefer email thanks ! tony uiuc edu
organization ryerson polytechnical institute distribution na jeff ryevm ryerson ca subject sale sound blaster card hurry ! lines 9 well seems soundblaster card sale since recently purchased card comes complete , mint condition box , manuals , docs , disks original packaging make offer canadian inquiries prefered ! respond april 28 ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! e mail ryevm ryerson ca j
dcoleman utxvms cc utexas edu \( daniel coleman \) subject 2mb ati ultra pro 16 24 bit windows drivers work \? lines 47 nntp posting host cc utexas edu organization university texas austin lines 47 article ut emx uucp , reza magellan ae utexas edu \( \) writes hi bought 486 dx2 66 gateway system 2 meg ati ultra pro video card everything seems work fine except windows drivers 800x600 24 bit , 800x600 1024x768 16 bit modes fonts icons start deteriorating windows startup , within minutes use , everything screen totally naturally , called gateway tech support inquire technician asked drivers , told version 1 5 , build 59 told 16 24 bit drivers ati ultra pro simply work ! ! ! true \? , i'm simply amazed could \? strange thing would expected see discussion \( unless subject made faq ! ! ! \) one suspicious point came later stated none windows accelerator boards working 16 24 bit drivers windows 3 1 easily challenged 've running diamond 24x 15 bit mode home 4 months , tested used 24 bit mode well backed said well , diamond working drivers much longer anyway , wanted see anyone else trouble feedback appreciated system configuration gateway 486 dx2 66 local bus 16 megs ram scsi hd cd rom ultrastor 34f local bus scsi controller ati ultra pro local bus 2mb vram dos 6 0 windows 3 1 mach 32 drivers version 1 5 \( build 59 \) able successfully use 16 24 bit color modes gateway system , although setup less complicated sounds may hardware conflict problem memory aperture 16m \? heard rumors incompatibilities scsi card variety systems call gateway give hell help fix dan daniel matthew coleman internet dcoleman utxvms cc utexas edu dcoleman ccwf cc utexas edu university texas austin decnet utxvms dcoleman electrical computer engineering bitnet dcoleman utxvms bitnet
richk grebyn com \( richard krehbiel \) subject vl bus hdd fdd controller ide hdd fdd controller \? reply taybh hpsgm2 sgp hp com 's message 20 apr 93 13 30 17 gmt lines 16 organization grebyn timesharing , inc article hpsgm2 sgp hp com taybh hpsgm2 sgp hp com \( beng hang tay \) writes hi , buying quantum lps240at 245 mb hardisk deciding hdd fdd controller 32 bit vl bus hdd fdd controller faster 16 bit ide hdd fdd controller card \? , vl bus ide faster isa ide ide interface fundamentally nothing extension isa bus , hook vl bus 'll work fast slower two , meaning isa speed hear vl bus controller slower ide controller \? hand , would n't expect slower richard krehbiel richk grebyn com os 2 2 0 amigados 386 comes along
dwayne uucp \( dwayne bailey \) subject need help identifying serial board organization strategic software , , michigan lines 26 need help multi port serial board unknown origin i'm hoping someone knows board , , even better , various switches used anyway , 's description card 16 bit card , although noticed none contacts 16 bit extension connected anything 4 chips sockets , 4 corresponding labeled com1 com4 also external female connector 37 pins 8 banks 8 switches , 2 banks 4 switches , 7 jumpers believe determined , following traces , \( 12 switches \) control interrupt level com ports 1 4 irq3 , 5 8 irq4 , 1 4 irq5 switches beyond meager ability follow identification printed board multi serial port board across bottom box serial number , blank immediately words serial , box left n , numbers 1990 2 8 anyone clues \? help greatly appreciated dwayne uucp ways make scream dwayne bailey intel advertisement , strategic software june 1989 doctor dobbs journal , michigan
brad ravel udel edu \( brad cain \) subject actix nntp posting host ravel udel edu organization university delaware lines 18 bought actix graphics engine 32 plus 2 megs impressed sorts problems board various lock ups windows , problems screen centering , choosing synch rates monitor , buggy windows drivers , lack driver , anyone else one cards , please e mail looks like i'm going try ati ultra plus brad bach udel edu brad cain cain snow white ee udel edu university delaware electrical engineering cain cns udel edu blah , blah , blah alt blah
minyos xx rmit oz au \( stephen \) subject drive boot organization royal melbourne institute technology lines 36 nntp posting host minyos xx rmit oz au balog eniac seas upenn edu \( eric j balog \) writes hi ! recently switched 3 5 drive problem , read write new b correctly , ca n't boot floppy 've checked cmos settings set floppy seek boot boot order , c , floppy systems files got message telling put disk systems disk drive n't work systems disk drive , happens 1 \) power memory test 2 \) light comes 3 \) b light comes , followed short beep 4 \) hd light comes instant 5 \) b light comes , nothing happens light goes , disk activity kind , screen blanks ca n't even use ctrl alt del suggestions checked 1 setting drive 1 44 floppy 2 setting drive b 1 2 3 cable connecting two drives controller card \( ca n't remember two wires swapped , determine drive b \) hope help \) steve minyos xx oz au
tiger netcom com \( tiger zhao \) subject 100 simms 100 sipps 1mb needed organization tiger 's garage lines 23 yuri atmos washington edu writes need 100 simms 100 sipps 1mb , price around 17 20 piece assume talking 1meg x 9 simms , 1meg x 9 sipps speed 70ns \? would take 10k pieces per week price \( fob us port \) waiting offer price , could dream tiger waiting offer yuri , ave ne seattle wa \( 206 \) 524 , 524 \( home \) \( 206 \) 685 \( work \) \( 206 \) 524 \( fax \) internet yuri atmos washington edu uucp uw beaver ! atmos washington edu ! yuri
organization university illinois chicago , academic computer center alan hinds uicvm uic edu subject disk data compression interleave lines 5 anyone enough experience report whether disk data compression effect optimal disk sector interleave \? offhand , expect time required decompress disk data would increase optimum disk sector interleave alan hinds
badry cs ualberta ca \( badry jason theodore \) subject chaining ide drives summary trouble master slave drives nntp posting host cs ualberta ca organization university alberta , edmonton canada lines 16 hi trying set conner quantum 80at drive conner set master , quantum set slave \( n't work way around \) able access drives boot floppy , drives boot running msdos 6 , conner partitioned primary dos , formatted system files tried different types setups , even changed ide controller cards boot floppy , everything works great \( except booting part \) \) system n't report error message anything , hangs anyone suggestions , somebody else run similar problem \? thinking might update bios one drives \( possible \? \) suggestions answers would greatly appreciated please reply jason badry badry cs ualberta ca
wally auspex com \( wally bass \) subject ide vs scsi organization auspex systems , santa clara lines 20 nntp posting host e5 auspex com article 1993apr19 julian uwo ca wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca \( wayne smith \) writes stuff deleted lowly low density original pc fdd card used dma pc hdd controller n't ! \? ! \? makes real sense actually , make reasonable amount sense fixed disk sectors buffered controller , transferring memory \( whatever instruction called \) quite efficient \( single instruction , goes fast controller cpu know use bus \) since 286 n't cached , bus likely critical resource relative cpu performance , 's possible dma bus interference would cause much loss cpu cycles \( \) sequence floppy , hand , buffered , using cpu floppy data transfer \( done pc jr , way \) really stink wally bass
wally auspex com \( wally bass \) subject date stuck organization auspex systems , santa clara lines 35 nntp posting host e5 auspex com article 1993apr19 oec4 orbital dialix oz au oecjtb oec4 orbital dialix oz au \( john bongiovanni \) writes stuff deleted hear order date advance , something , like clock , make get date system call \? apparently , clock hardware interrupt bios n't \( date advance \) automatically get date call notices midnight reset flag set , advances date anybody info \? two \( 1 \) bios tod routine updates bios clock uses 1 bit day increment , second wrapping clock past midnight get lost one calls bios read clock meantime , \( 2 \) bios resets day wrap indicator first 'get call anybody \( wrap indicator set \) unless first bios 'get call midnight done dos \( part dos knows increment date , day wrap indication normally lost guess kevin 's system uses bios calls read clock \( order display time \) , hence entity causes day wrap indication get lost even system day \( think indicated non zero value al \) , really n't particularly good way tell dos , dos update day menu system use dos calls get time , would cause dos bios call , wrap indicator would hence processed properly possibly , though , system ca n't easily use dos calls time , dos , perhaps time occur system dos call wally bass
rtsg mot com \( mark \) subject amd i486 clones legal us \? ! \? ! \? ! nntp posting host organization motorola inc , cellular infrastructure group distribution na lines 12 poe wharton upenn edu writes friend mine called phone told cnn saw report ruling prohibiting amd selling i486 clones thrown , making legal amd ship us anyone verify \? thanks advance phil yep , news great news consumers bad news intel
ra msstate edu \( todd w anderson \) subject diamond stealth 24 giving 9 4 winmarks \? nntp posting host ra msstate edu organization mississippi state university lines 9 486dx33 stealth 24 vlb get 11 4 winmarks ver 3 11
anisko daytonoh ncr com \( anisko \) subject atari mono vga reply anisko uucp \( \) distribution world organization ncr corporation , dayton lines 35 article oregon uoregon edu oregon uoregon edu \( alan \) writes article 1993apr19 tdb uu se , m88max tdb uu se \( max brante \) writes anybody converting atari monitor mono vga monitor please let know exactly graphics card used wish could help ! posted similar question two weeks ago got response 've asked locally friendly atari store told possible , idea might done particularly care investigate please , anyone suggestions , post ! might try asking one comp sys ibm \( best one may comp sys ibm pc hardware \) say conversion seems geared toward pc user wanting use monitor , atari user already use monitor \( unless maybe want really go wild converting monitor vga , using vga monitor falcon \) graphics cards , assuming atari monitor modified adapted handle vga signals , probably able use vga card \( least res around 640x400 \) n't tried , would guess robert anisko anisko daytonoh ncr com might want price mono vga monitors anyways may cheaper go route conversion besides , falcon beyond , vga svga multisync monitors probably way go
cs uq oz au \( geoff green \) subject multi card 16550 uart 's reply cs uq oz au organization department computer science , university queensland lines 18 possible buy serial card 16550 uart 's built \( rather buy separately , \) \? current card uses 8250 's \( correct number \? braindead ones anyway \) also controls two floppy drives , two ide hard drives ideally , 'd like get new multi card , 2 serial ports 16550 's could also control another 2 ide hd 's would configurable addresses serial ports , ide controller , could co exist existing card beast exist \? hard part get one australia , preferably brisbane \? thanks , geoff green \( cs uq oz au \)
imj1 cunixa cc columbia edu \( imad jureidini \) subject problems toshiba 3401 cdrom nntp posting host cunixa cc columbia edu reply imj1 cunixa cc columbia edu \( imad jureidini \) organization columbia university lines 22 article ratatosk nho hydro com writes article 1993apr20 news columbia edu , imj1 cunixa cc columbia edu \( imad jureidini \) writes hi ! recently purchased toshiba 3401 cdrom adaptec 1542b scsi card , far failed get cdrom work dos one aspi drivers \( think 's \) supports , means reset scsi bus loads fixed problem friend mine adaptec 3401 regards , terje worked ! ! ! thank much ! imj1 cunixa cc columbia edu imad jureidini ultimate knight , grand priest secrets undefined
montuno physics su oz au \( lino montuno \) subject cpu temperature vs cpu activity \? nntp posting host physics su oz au organization school physics , university sydney , australia lines 8 may naive question basis claim cpu get hotter computationally intensive job running \? friend claims little difference temperature idle cpu cpu running computationally intensive job lino montuno
ab245 cleveland freenet edu \( sam latonia \) subject test n't read ! organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 6 nntp posting host slc4 ins cwru edu gosh think installed virus called ms dos6 n't copy floppy burn love windows crash
hardy u washington edu \( starfleet command \) subject 256 color drivers article shelley reply u washington edu distribution organization university washington , seattle lines 5 nntp posting host hardy u washington edu would appreciate driver name cica functions 256 color driver video card type chip chipset used would suffice well u washington edu
biernat rtsg mot com \( tim biernat \) subject g2k jumbo 250 backup problems keywords tape backup gateway jumbo nntp posting host organization motorola , inc , cellular infrastructure group distribution usa lines 18 article 1993apr19 den mmc com den mmc com writes colorado memory systems jumbo 250 tape backup unit gateway 486 33v tower system found supplied backup capability fairly unreliable approx 3 cases 10 , backup fail one point another , often hanging middle writing tape seek errors , drive communication errors seem common use dos backup software colorado memory systems return drive , get better backup software , reformat tapes \( using cms tapes \) \? hints would appreciated stuff time consuming 've using identical setup , except tower config , several months previous discussions net , first thing check dma conflicts devices , 've got funky ones next , suspect tape try fresh one good luck ! tim
jamesc netcom com \( james chuang \) subject diamond stealth 24 giving 9 4 winmarks \? organization netcom online communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 8 pc mag got around 9 10 winmarks tested steal 24 sounds like ok jamesc someone asks god , say yes !
ericsson se \( bjorn \) subject loopback connector made \? reply 35002 4401 uwovax uwo ca 's message mon , 19 apr 1993 17 26 28 gmt nntp posting host ericsson se reply ericsson se organization ericsson lines 27 35002 4401 uwovax uwo ca writes need know pins connect make loopback connector serial port build one loopback connector used test serial port thanks help recent byte magazine got following question part answer deleted handy soldering iron , loopback plugs easy make serial rs 232 nine pin port , use female db 9 connector connect pins 1 7 8 2 3 4 6 9 serial rs 232 25 pin ports , 'll need female db 25 connector pins 1 7 2 3 4 5 8 6 11 20 22 15 17 23 18 25 connected test centronics 25 pin parallel port , 'll need connect pins 1 13 2 15 10 16 11 17 12 14 male db 25 connector stan n't tried use risk ericsson se
csi forth gr \( \) subject comments eisa bus book \? organization forth ics , p box , , , greece tel 30 \( 81 \) , fax 30 \( 81 \) , 3 cci lines 29 distribution world nntp posting host csi forth gr keywords eisa , isa hello , following list books isa eisa buses 1 isa system architecture tom anderson press , 1993 34 95 2 eisa system architecture tom anderson press , 1993 24 95 3 isa , eisa pc , xt , , e isa , isa , eisa timing specs edward , copyright 1992 isbn 0 15 9 4 bus design edward , copyright 1990 isbn 0 08 6 5 interfacing ibm pc xt , lewis c copyright 1990 comments \? please reply e mail , thanks advance ,
wow cup portal com \( wallace otis \) subject 2 smc arcnet cars sale organization portal system \( tm \) distribution world lines 4 2 new smc arcnet cards sale brand new 50 wow cup portal com wally
wow cup portal com \( wallace otis \) subject hayes jt fax card sale 125 organization portal system \( tm \) distribution world lines 4 like new hayes jt fax sale 125 offer trade ! wally wow cup portal com
rz uni sb de \( carsten grammes \) subject list ide harddisk specs \( 21 04 93 \) organization universitaet des , rechenzentrum lines 761 nntp posting host rz uni sb de configuration ide harddisks last update 14 4 1993 collected carsten grammes \( rz uni sb de \) published regularly comp sys ibm pc hardware ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! explicitly warranty given settings correct harmless \( collect , check ! ! ! \) always possibility settings may destroy hardware ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! since hope however well minded people undergo effort posting settings chance exists agree disagree setting , let know immediately order update list possess hd mentioned know bios jumper settings , please mail next update list ! ide \( bus \) harddisks accounted specified landing zone set equal number cylinders specified set 65535 \( n't even ask \) another statement \( maybe right \) ide harddisk n't precomp lzone precomp built parameter lzone n't used every ide disk names given printed hd 's board , often jumper number \( means jumper \) zero means jumper left open , one means jumper closed c n n e r conner peripherals drive geometry ide conner drives low level formatted factory necessary run setup , fdisk , dos format model heads cylinders sectors l zone type table led 2 823 38 0 823 ut 3 n 4 823 38 0 823 ut 3 n 8 548 38 0 548 ut 3 n 6 832 33 0 832 ut 1 8 776 33 0 776 ut 1 8 833 33 0 833 ut 1 \( \? \) 16 683 38 0 683 ut 2 b 4 762 39 0 762 ut 2 b 8 526 39 0 526 ut 2 b 8 762 39 0 762 ut 2 b 4 903 46 0 903 ut 3 c 8 903 46 0 903 ut 3 c 16 683 38 0 683 ut 3 c 16 659 63 0 659 ut 3 16 702 63 0 702 ut 3 16 987 63 0 987 ut 3 16 1054 63 0 1054 ut 3 b table 1 table 2 jumper settings jumper settings single drive jumper act c single drive jumper c master drive jumper act , c dsp master drive jumper c dsp slave drive jumpers installed slave drive jumpers installed table 3 conner 20 mbyte drives use jumper settings drive type 2 conner 40 mbyte drives use drive type 17 single master drive jumper c slave drive jumpers installed ut universal translate select drive type close exceed megabyte capacity drive drive translate megabyte capacity selected led b c j 4 j 5 j 5 j 3 pin 1 pin 3 pin 3 pin 3 pin 2 pin 4 pin 4 pin 4 installed conner \( 203 mb \) master wd caviar 2200 \( 203 mb \) slave , without cp jumper , caviar seemingly normal behaviour however , writes caviar , would overwrite directories etc using fastback almost impossible workaround install caviar master , conner slave f u j u details fujitsu drives \( standard \) heads \( physical \) 8 6 4 2 cyl \( physical \) 1334 1334 1334 1334 sec 33 33 33 33 speed \( rpm \) capacity 180mb psu cnh 2 1 1 led cnh 1 9 cnh 3 connector 1 6 1 40 way ide 12 pin function position 1 2 active mode 2 3 slave present mode 4 5 pin 27 iochrdy cnh 1 jumpers 5 6 pin 27 reserved 7 8 2 drive system 8 9 1 drive system 10 11 pin 29 pin 31 reserved 11 12 pin 31 pin 29 reserved pin function position 1 2 slave drive mode cnh 2 jumpers 4 5 master drive mode 7 8 ecc 4 bytes 8 9 ecc 7 bytes pin function position 1 2 write protect enabled cnh 3 jumpers 2 3 write protect disabled 4 5 6 reserved key \( guess ! \) marks factory default setting jumper bios settings bios setting system 667 cylinders , 33 sectors 16 heads trying set ide drive subject slave drive conner 170mb drive contacting support company gave answer \( works \) factory default sw2 \( 1 6 \) sets drive single drive setting sw2 makes slave drive sw1 set \( 1 4 \) along model cylinders heads sectors capacity \( million bytes \) 1013 10 63 326 75 13 63 420 16 995 16 63 513 51 6 switches switch block drives 4 use aware \( manual \) master slave master \( \) sw1 5 slave sw1 5 ecc bytes 4 bytes \( \) sw1 4 7 bytes sw1 4 write protect disabled \( \) sw1 3 enabled sw1 3 io channel ready disabled \( \) sw1 1 enabled sw1 1 idea function sw1 2 sw1 6 values listed \( \) factory default settings k l k 105 mb bios cyl 979 heads 6 sectors 35 120 mb bios cyl 981 heads 6 sectors 40 following jumper settings reported probably also valid drives single hd row pin 1 ide connector master \( disk 1 \) slave 5 pairs pins side disk x r model cyls heads sectors precomp landing zone lxt 200a 816 15 32 0 816 lxt 683 16 38 0 683 lxt 654 16 63 0 654 842 16 63 0 842 1036 16 63 0 1024 jumpers follows bottom drive looks like \( well , sort \) 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 power ide connector single drive dual drive system pin numbers jumper system master slave 1 2 slave drive remove remove install 3 4 activity led optional optional optional 5 6 slave present remove remove optional 7 8 master drive remove install remove 9 10 sync remove \( n \) optional remove one drive \( master \) array jumper installed maxtor 7060a 16 467 17 62 , 0 j14 closed , j13 closed maxtor 7060a 7 1024 17 59 , 5 j14 open , j13 open maxtor 7060a 4 762 39 58 , 0 j14 closed , j13 open maxtor 7060a 8 925 17 57 , 9 j14 open , j13 closed maxtor 7120a 16 17 124 , 3 j14 closed , j13 closed maxtor 7120a 14 1024 17 119 , 0 j14 open , j13 open maxtor 7120a 8 762 39 116 , 0 j14 closed , j13 open maxtor 7120a 15 900 17 112 , 0 j14 open , j13 closed maxtor 7120a 8 824 33 106 , 2 j14 jumpers 2 drives channel ready \( open disabled close enabled \) j13 see j14 see operation status \( open normal close factory \) j j j j j 2 1 1 1 1 0 9 8 7 6 power data cable idle mode latch \( open disabled close enabled \) drive model \( open 7060a close 7120a \) ecc bytes \( open 7 bytes close 4 bytes \) master slave drive master alone j20 closed , j19 closed drive master two drives j20 closed , j19 open drive slave two drives j20 open , j19 closed maxtor default \( power \) bios translation parameters \( others possible \) cyl hds mbytes 683 16 38 212 two sets jumpers set 5 set 4 power ide connector toward , set 5 numbered \( left right \) j20 , set 4 numbered \( bottom top \) jumper normal interest j20 jumper drive single drive system , master drive dual drive system remove jumper j20 slave drive dual drive system j19 dummy may used store spare drive configured slave mode jumpers , , , factory reserved abnormal operation may occur jumpered jumper 22 sync enabled disabled \( open disabled \) jumper 23 sync slave master \( open slave \) jumper 16 channel ready \( open disabled \) maxtor \( ide self parking universal translate \) drive type user cyl hds lz 967 16 0 0 31 \( lz optional \) master \( 2 \) j20 closed slave \( 2 \) j20 open \( use j19 storage \) single j20 closed c r p l drive mb 647 1220 formatted mb 560 1050 platters 5 8 heads 8 15 cylinders 1760 1760 performance \( \) track track \( read \) 1 5 msec track track \( write \) 2 5 msec average 10 msec max 25 msec avg rotational latency 5 56 msec rotational speed 5400 rpm \( 5 \) data transfer rate upto sec internal data rate 24 40 mbits sec bios settings 1084 cyl 16 heads 63 sectors master 1024 cyl 16 heads 63 sectors slave 1010 cyl 16 heads 63 sectors emulates master slave jumpers \( labelled j6 drive \) oo w1 2 used oo w2 oo oo oo w2 w1 drive emulates master slave drive master , slave present drive slave drive master , slave present \( ie single drive \) c r c e n c e model 00 heads 7 cylinders 855 35 \( \? \) size model 00 size 40m n c r b e miniscribe model cap h rate access comments 3 5 21 745 2 8 28 ms 28 3 5 42 745 4 8 28 ms 28 3 5 42 745 4 8 40 ms 28 master \( 2 \) 5 6 slave \( 2 \) 1 2 single 1 3 \( storage \) n e c nec , 40 mb bios cyl 537 head 4 sect 41 nec , 105 mb bios cyl 625 head 8 sect 41 nec , 44 mb bios cyl 423 head 8 sect 26 0 lzone 424 jumper \( nec drives \) single 0 0 master 1 0 slave 1 1 reported difficulties using wd caviar master nec drives slave way works q u n u logical specs quantum drives compliments computer brokers canada model cap avg acc cylinders heads sectors track \( mb \) \( ms \) 42 19 965 5 17 80at 84 19 965 10 17 120 15 814 9 32 168 15 968 10 34 209 15 873 13 36 426 14 1021 16 51 lps 52 17 751 8 17 lps 80at 83 17 611 16 17 lps 105 17 755 16 17 lps 122 16 901 5 53 lps 240at 245 16 723 13 51 legend 1 jumper installed 0 jumper 40 80 jumpers ds ss meaning 1 0 single drive configuration 1 1 master dual drive 0 0 slave dual drive 0 1 self seek test 120 , 170 , 210 425 jumpers ds sp ss meaning 0 0 0 slave master quantum prodrive 40 80a 0 0 1 slave prodrive 40 80a mode 0 1 0 slave master non quantum drive 0 1 1 used 1 0 1 master drive pdiag mode checking dasp slave 1 1 0 master pdiag mode using sp check slave present 1 1 1 master 40 80a mode using sp check slave present 1 0 0 single drive lps 52 , 80 , 105 , 120 240 jumpers ds sp dm meaning 0 0 0 slave standard pdiag mode compatibility drives use pdiag line handle master slave communications 0 0 1 slave prodrive 40 80a mode compat without using pdiag line 0 1 0 self test 0 1 1 self test 1 0 0 master pdiag mode using dasp check slave 1 0 1 master 40 80a mode using dasp check slave 1 1 0 master pdiag mode using sp check slave without checking dasp 1 1 1 master 40 80a mode using sp check slave without checking dasp spec form marked jumper name dm , labeled cs lps 240at drive quantum series model cap avg acc cylinders heads sectors track \( mb \) \( ms \) 42 968 5 17 85 977 10 17 127 919 16 17 170 15 22 write precomp 0 quantum drives \( probably significance \) landing zone cylinders straps drive master , use ds master slave , ds , ds sp cases slave , strap r e information ro ro series hard disk drives drive types model cyls hds sectors blocks formatted cap 868 3 34 88 , 536 45 33 mbyets 868 5 34 147 , 560 75 55 mbyets 923 5 34 156 , 910 80 33 mbyets 868 7 34 206 , 584 105 77 mbyets 923 7 34 219 , 674 112 47 mbyets 217 15 28 91 , 158 46 67 mbyets 325 15 28 136 , 737 70 00 mbyets 492 15 28 206 , 645 105 80 mbyets 523 15 28 219 , 735 112 50 mbyets 759 15 28 319 , 053 163 35 mbyets 976 15 28 410 , 211 210 02 mbyets link options order install rodime ro series drives single dual drive led operation drive need set described relevant product specification single drive environment drive described master dual drive environment drives described master slave due takes place two drives performing diagnostics four links , , lk2 , lk4 , adjacent 40 way interface connector following functions described order viewed end drive , first jumper described nearest 40 way interface connector lk2 led fitted , jumper connects led drive pin 39 interface allows led connected interface external current limiting resistor needs fitted series led option selected value resistor dependant led type chosen range 130 ohms ot 220 ohms dual drives jumper must fitted two drives attached single bus communication across 40 way interface connector , indicating , master drive , presence slave lk4 master fitted signifies drive jumpered master two drives connected single bus one may jumpered way iochrdy fitted connects iochrdy signal drive , fitted drive used host systems higher data transfer rate drive e greater 4 mbytes per second using 1 1 interleave jumper normally fitted hosts transfer lower rate 4 mbytes per second four possible master slave configurations drive \( \) may jumpered master , single drive led interface lk2 lk4 fitted master , single drive without led interface lk4 fitted master , dual drive without led interface lk4 fitted slave , dual drive without led interface jumpers fitted master , dual drive led interface lk4 , lk2 fitted slave , dual drive led interface lk2 fitted master drive delay power approximately two seconds reduce power surges applications dual drives used connections led found close 28 way connector end drive led driver affected link options internal current limiting resistor drive led driver refer product specification details e g e list seagate hd \( including mfm , scsi , ide \) every simtel mirror msdos zip contains info following drives st3283a st3144a e c model sd cyls heads sect lzone capacity physical 4 40 bios \( ami \) 641 8 40 0 0 \( 100 2m \) \( award \) 926 13 17 0 0 \( 99 9m \) \( phoenix \) 776 8 33 0 0 \( 100 0m \) connectors jumpers 1 jumper function 2 0 0 act selected \( ext led \) slv present selected 3 1 1 two hdd 's j2 j7 40 j1 single hdd power \( power \) signal jumpers 2 master \( single \) slave \( 2 units used \) 3 ch output ch output master slave settings jumper 1 2 single 0 1 1 , jumpered master 1 1 0 , jumpered slave 1 0 w e e r n g l caviar series name size \( mb \) cylinders heads sectors 40 7 980 5 17 81 3 980 10 17 119 0 1024 14 17 162 7 1010 6 55 202 8 989 12 35 325 4 1010 12 55 please note recommended cmos parameters disks support called dynamic translation , thus able work parameters fewer sectors total number sectors disk , according manual , jumper settings follows jumper cp sl single 0 0 0 master 0 1 0 slave 0 0 1 slave conner 1 0 1 maybe 2 kinds caviar 's floating around jumpers read sl si use jumper si sl single 1 0 0 master 0 1 0 slave 0 0 1 reported difficulties using wd caviar master nec drives slave way works installed conner \( 203 mb \) master wd caviar 2200 \( 203 mb \) slave , without cp jumper , caviar seemingly normal behaviour however , writes caviar , would overwrite directories etc using fastback almost impossible workaround install caviar master , conner slave \( 40 mb \) bios settings 977 , 5 heads , 17 sect , lzone 977 \( sie sie \) 1 drive master cable 1 2 3 2 drive slave 3 second drive conner drive jumper set drive useful telephone numbers miniscribe 303 651 6000 maxtor info tech support 800 262 fax back 303 678 bbs 303 678 2222 list 800 number 1 \( 800 \) 2 maxtor quantum 408 894 4000 408 944 \( support \) 408 894 \( fax \) 408 894 3214 \( bbs \) seagate info tech support 408 438 fax back 408 438 bbs 408 438 last least could help little collection live part world far away , postcard \? surely answer ! carsten grammes experimental physics universitaet saarbruecken w 6600 saarbruecken germany
stud cs uit \( \) subject protected mode \? organization university tromsoe lines 6 anybody \( point right direction \) information protected mode \? also interested protected mode viewed os point view thanks advance
elof iit edu \( david geller \) subject parity error system halted anyone ideas \? organization illinois institute technology , chicago lines 28 recently bought amd 386 40 motherboard booklet says board 391 wb h 4 simms board machine also uses super ide card \( model pt 604 \) \( course niether motherboard card booklet clearly state \) i'm also using trident 8900c svga card anyway , 's pertinent info think problem computer often freezes displays parity error system halted messages depending whether set memory parity error checking disabled enabled setup bios \( makes sense \) ami bios \( must ami board \? \) took back dealer replaced simms keep getting error \( frequently \) worked dealer n't start screwing 'till got home \( figures \) 've tried take simms even inserted reverse order , making sure connections solid suspicion jumps damn one hd controller serial parallel game port card , motherboard \( god forbid \) anyone help \? thanks , peace , david geller elof acc iit edu
sjp apana org au \( steven \) subject info cyrix 486dru2 chip \? distribution world organization home sweet home lines 16 cyrix released 386 pin 486 clone designed upgrade old 16 20mhz 386 's chips also thus 16mhz 386 transformed 32mhz 486 , single chip upgrade unfortunately australia sells \( 16mhz \) \( 20mhz \) , 1 5x price 486dx33 motherboard two vlb slots ! ! ! much thing cost states \? well work \? thanks info , steven 486 notebook sjp apana org au os 2 2 0
helium gas uug arizona edu \( \) subject bus clk speed \? organization university arizona , tucson lines 22 article 1993apr14 debbie cc nctu edu tw cc nctu edu tw \( wei shi \) writes robert desonia \( robert desonia hal9k ann arbor mi us \) wrote one bios setup says bus clk set default 4 , able get work 3 si 3 142 something didnt want mess anything set back 4 also , pc didnt boot set 2 , leave 4 \? think 's impossible let bus operated much 8mhz c neat 286 20 mother board , set bus clock 10 mhz , hd stopped boot 's correct clk n means many wait states sm think depends motherboard cards system hd stopped boot probably hd controller ca n't handle faster bus speed 486 33dx , set bus divider clk 2 5 , close gain performace increase video card harddisk transfer rate boost bus speed system work flawlessly setting know , go clk 2 \( bus \) , hd refuse boot 2 cent jim
helium gas uug arizona edu \( \) subject ide low level format organization university arizona , tucson lines 10 article news cso uiuc edu mandel romulus ehs uiuc edu \( mandel \) writes accidentally tried low level format western digital caviar 280 drive public domain shareware utility available allow fix \? thanks expert pretty sure way recover ide drive mapping information written directly drives low level format , information gone well , n't think get back unless send back western digital ask jim
mars cc edu \( sean tyler mars \) subject help blowing stack expires 29 apr 93 23 00 00 gmt organization carroll college , wi lines 25 hi everyone , question regarding stack pc programming turbo c 3 0 program rather large \( model large \) keep getting errors running memory running program compile program , says 4 45 meg ram ca n't seem explain crashes running loop operator idle sitting , screw variables leads believe stack filling program take memory calling void functions return anything \? \? working problem days would really appreciate responce correct newsgroup , gladly post , could find thanks advance , sean mars email mars cc edu carroll college , wi
organization penn state university guf psuvm psu edu subject help 8088 80286 advice lines 11 8088 640k clone want except run 1 game want buy game says requires 80286 640k game tech support says game run 8088 uses digitized graphics would make run really slow \( 's card game classic card games , digitized graphics photos artwork game fictional card players \) speed game would run , short 80286 motherboard upgrade co processor \? accelerator card 80286 \? 8088 run 10 mhz advice would greatly appreciated gil \( guf psuvm psu edu \)
michael jester gun de \( michael gerhards \) distribution world subject modems uarts x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 organization private coherent system lines 33 ryan jeffrey \( eos ncsu edu \) wrote 1 \) 16550 uart \? n't know exact meaning uart , think something like universal arithmetic receiver transmitter normally , older boards 8250 16450 uart board chips generate irq every char received 16550 uart internal 16 byte buffer , right software installed generates irq every 16 chars 2 \) high speed modems \? 3 \) necessary 14 4k higher throughput \? ran dos , n't need 16550 , dos runs one task time whole cpu power could used transfer running multitasking os os 2 , unix , etc \( windows \? \) \) , cpu cannot work whole time one task result lost characters broken transmissions timeouts 4 \) internal modems \? internal modems uart board , whereas external modems connected computer serial port uart board experience 9600 higher speed modems , please let know think also , particular brand name , cheapo clone well \? use coherent 4 0 i'm satisfied think nearly everyone satisfied modem michael michael jester gun de michael gerhards preussenstrasse 59 germany 4040 neuss voice 49 2131 82238
subject ide cable vacsc0qe vax csun edu reply vacsc0qe vax csun edu organization cal state lines 12 bought new ide hard drive system go one already problem system ide cable one drive , buy cable two drive connectors , consequently switch cables problem , new hard drive 's manual refers matching pin 1 cable pin 1 drive pin 1 ide card life cannot figure tell way plug cable align secondly , cable like connector two ends one figure one end goes controler two go drives matter plug master drive slave \? help appreciated thanks
ebosco us oracle com \( eric bosco \) subject help adding scsi drive nntp posting host monica us oracle com reply ebosco us oracle com organization oracle corp , redwood shores ca x disclaimer message written unauthenticated user oracle corporation opinions expressed user necessarily oracle lines 35 486sx25 computer 105 mg seagate ide drive controler built motherboard want add scsi drive \( quantum prodrive 425 mg formatted \) documentation need help ! understand , process adding drive could please tell i'm right 1 buy scsi contoler one \? know adaptec good , kind expensive good boards 100 region \? want compatible os2 unix possible also , seen net scsi scsi2 drives true \? adapter need drive \? type drive quantum \? 2 connect drive adapter via scsi cable power cable worry power supply \? think 200 watts i'm powering two floppies seagate drive 3 setup bios recognize drive second drive type drive \? n't numbers drive 4 format create partitions drive use format fdisk \? think ide drives ca n't low level formatted scsi \? exactly fdisk work \? reduced msdos 5 0 manual \( clone \) mention fdisk ideally , would want drive partitioned two partitions e \? well seems anythiing i'm forgetting \? help really appreciated , i'm lost eric ebosco us oracle com
oracle com \( raymond ngai \) subject system disk controller information needed nntp posting host us oracle com organization oracle corporation , belmont , ca distribution comp x disclaimer message written unauthenticated user oracle corporation opinions expressed user necessarily oracle lines 36 anybody used hd controller system inc \( business believe \) \? friend received old pc happens controller hard time trying add another hd card believe controller supposed control mfm drives rll drives \? \? model info card , similar model probably system inc model ps 180 rev 2 2 ecn 9 21 would appreciate reply directly e mail address thanks , ray \( oracle com \) \( raymond ngai oracle com \) \( application system analyst 300 oracle parkway , \) \( vertical applications division redwood shores , ca 94065 \) \( oracle corporation \( 415 \) 506 fax 506 \)
ebosco us oracle com \( eric bosco \) subject help choosing scsi controler nntp posting host monica us oracle com reply ebosco us oracle com organization oracle corp , redwood shores ca x disclaimer message written unauthenticated user oracle corporation opinions expressed user necessarily oracle lines 10 need buy scsi controler 486 machine use quantum harddrive know adaptec good , kind expensive essentially want controller 100 150 range use drive plan use windows later os 2 1 comes appreciated eric ebosco us oracle com
david c cat uucp \( dave \) subject cents keystroke \? organization intergalactic rest area weary travellers lines 14 keyboard cents key \? c like 2 cents worth 0 02 \( \) david china cat bbs c cat ! david sed csc com \( 301 \) 604 5976 1200 14 , 400 8n1 uunet ! mimsy ! anagld ! c cat ! david
david c cat uucp \( dave \) subject ide vs scsi organization intergalactic rest area weary travellers lines 28 bgrubb dante nmsu edu \( grubb \) writes scsi 1 scsi 2 controller chip also called scsi 2 \( 8 bit \) 4 6mb 10mb burst advertised scsi 2 byte 4 93 159 pc speeds mac , pc following mess excuse need clarification iam thinking seriously ide vs scsi thread could come better time quote scsi 1 scsi 2 controller chip talking scsi 1 device \( e g hd \) scsi 2 controller talking scsi 1 controller chip upgrade using chip scsi 2 controller board thanks david china cat bbs c cat ! david sed csc com \( 301 \) 604 5976 1200 14 , 400 8n1 uunet ! mimsy ! anagld ! c cat ! david
david c cat uucp \( dave \) subject run box w cover \? \? organization intergalactic rest area weary travellers lines 42 biernat rtsg mot com \( tim biernat \) writes interested getting pulse group regarding extended operation g2k 486 33v cover removed enclosure reasons considering , including quick access jumpers complex card setups concern without complete enclosure direct cooling flow air fan , hot spots may develop motherboard elsewhere g2k intake air vents front enclosure right mb level vents would removed along top cover scenario , rendering fan pretty useless however , short periods mode n't seem heat things much , conclusions far scientific tim ran 386 33 cardboard box year major effects \( yeah , case , mb sitting static bag \) noise ran pretty good cooling problems bought 12 14 inch fan turned full set output directly motherboard finally get case though still running parts ill effects also kids spill things mb cat leaving hair mb etc etc two major concerns keeping static away keeping mb cool enjoy david china cat bbs c cat ! david sed csc com \( 301 \) 604 5976 1200 14 , 400 8n1 uunet ! mimsy ! anagld ! c cat ! david
david c cat uucp \( dave \) subject search bad memory chips organization intergalactic rest area weary travellers lines 37 rnichols cbnewsg cb att com \( robert k nichols \) writes steps deleted 's interesting idea , worst case data patterns developed test magnetic media totally different patterns used detect common faults memory chips major memory problems ago getting parity error system halted error message windows ran qa plus , check , diagnose , well several shareware memory checkers total 8 meg simm system store bought shareware memory diagnostics either ran fine without errors found error address could n't place memory chip came \( deleted \) steps find bad memory chips found 2 \( moral never buy memory stamped sensitive critical applications back anyway filter bad memory chips using combinations 4 8 meg chips creating ram drive test although dod n't alleviate parity error problems windows manage find bad memory chips manner never failed find bad chip commercial shareware always either finding error pointing idea chip p man typing stinks today n't feel like around line editor david china cat bbs c cat ! david sed csc com \( 301 \) 604 5976 1200 14 , 400 8n1 uunet ! mimsy ! anagld ! c cat ! david
iccgcc decnet ab com \( doug henderson \) subject 286 jumper settings lines 16 received computer \( dos \) without manual describes jumpers motherboard came 640kb 'd 1mb computer setup recognize extra anyone know computer capable greater 640k main board jumpers required expand 1mb \? specs main board number 81 621 phoenix bios v1 51 1985 thanks advance , doug
cse dnd ca \( paul \) subject ide vs scsi organization canadian system security centre lines 15 article austin ibm com guyd austin ibm com \( guy dawson \) writes int eh article pc would get plug play scsi article seems get plug play scsi 1 since scsi 2 full implimentation ten 7 devices beleive last bit plain wrong ! believe right scsi scsi 2 support 8 devices bus \( normally would host controller 7 targets \) may 8 logical units \( \) paul voice \( 613 \) 991 internet cse dnd ca fax \( 613 \) 991 uucp ! uunet , cunews ! cse dnd ca !
zaphod linet org \( steve \) subject vga card fixed frequency monitor organization source source lines 19 x standard disclaimer probably n't speak linet org anyone connected high res , fixed frequency monitor pc \? monitor 1024x768 60hz , wo n't resolutions video cards designed sort thing expensive \( 400 \) anyone done svga card \( know done , 's question getting card right resolution frequency \) \? 'd like use mono \( hercules \) monitor dos command line monitor , switch windows x windows \( linux \) suggestions would greatly appreciated e mail , please thanks , steve zaphod linet org call lady 's castle bbs please respond queries via e mail \( post also like \) 516 226 site news much faster keep message made 100 recycled materials
randy msc cornell edu subject scsi vs ide organization cornell university lines 8 scsi cards dos systems require separate device driver loaded memory scsi device hooked \? also true 32 bit os 's \? thanks randy
randy lynx msc cornell edu uucp \( randall jay ellingson , 199 clark , , \) subject ide vs scsi originator randy msc cornell edu organization cornell materials science center lines 47 article dns1 nmsu edu , bgrubb dante nmsu edu \( grubb \) wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca \( wayne smith \) write article dns1 nmsu edu bgrubb dante nmsu edu \( grubb \) writes wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca \( wayne smith \) writes since mac uses scsi 1 hard drives yes figure includes hundred scsi drivers sloppy people dumb group \? mac group nice delete responce item prompted whit bought quantum 240 mac home paid 369 tons stuff deleted scsi vs ide question wow , guys really going wild ide vs scsi thing , think 's great ! like lots people , 'd really like increase data transfer rate hard drive right 15ms 210mb ide drive \( seagate \) , would say standard \( special , cache believe \) ide controller card isa 486 50 i'm currently thinking adding another hd , 300mb 500mb range i'm thinking hard \( hear gears grinding head \) buying scsi drive \( scsi future benefit \) believe i'm getting something like 890kb sec transfer right \( according nu \) would number compare bought state art scsi card isa pc , state art scsi hard drive \( wailing est system could hope \) \? obviously money factors choice well , would want use isa system \? much would cost \? along lines , kind transfer rate could see ide hd 's buy top line ide caching controller 200mb , 15ms hd \? much would cost \? actually pas 16 , could \( waste guess would \) hook scsi hd 's scsi port yields optimum sec actually , borrowed 12ms fujitsu hd hooked \( trantor hd drivers pas 16 scsi port \) scsi port scsi 2 port \? could tell \? fujitsu 2623a scsi 2 \? scsi hd 's scsi 2 \? thanks comments rephrased questions randy
randy msc cornell edu \( randy ellingson \) subject isa bus scsi ide \? \? ! ! reply randy msc cornell edu organization cornell university lines 38 wow , guys really going wild ide vs scsi thing , think 's great ! however , think people \( \) would benefit answers simple \( \? \) question would choose , \? like lots people , 'd really like increase data transfer rate hard drive right 15ms 210mb ide drive \( seagate \) , would say standard \( special , cache believe \) ide controller card isa 486 50 i'm currently thinking adding another hd , 300mb 500mb range i'm thinking hard \( hear gears grinding head \) buying scsi drive \( scsi future benefit \) believe i'm getting something like 890kb sec transfer right \( according nu \) would number compare bought state art scsi card isa pc , state art scsi hard drive \( wailing est system could hope \) \? obviously money factors choice well , would want use isa system \? much would cost \? along lines , kind transfer rate could see ide hd 's buy top line ide caching controller 200mb , 15ms hd \? much would cost \? actually pas 16 , could \( waste guess would \) hook scsi hd 's scsi port yields optimum sec actually , borrowed 12ms fujitsu hd hooked \( trantor hd drivers pas 16 scsi port \) scsi port scsi 2 port \? could tell \? fujitsu 2623a scsi 2 \? scsi hd 's scsi 2 \? thanks comments randy
brand s1 gov \( hal r brand \) subject request input cd rom drives organization llnl lines 9 distribution world reply brand s1 gov \( hal r brand \) nntp posting host s1 gov keywords cd rom i'm looking getting external , reasonably fast \( 350 ms avg access time \) cd rom drive supports photo cd multi session , audio output , scsi interface connection pas16 scsi port anyone comments experiences warnings recommendations 'd like share concerning texel dm 5024 toshiba others thanks ! hal r brand brand s1 gov
ampex com \( eric hung \) subject comments video blaster \( creative labs \) nntp posting host organization ampex corporation , redwood city ca lines 41 article 794 wpsun4 uucp mikgr wpsun4 uucp \( michael grant \) writes article 1993apr14 ultb isc rit edu , ritvax isc rit edu writes bu edu heiser acs2 bu edu \( bill heiser \) writes article chinet chi il us randy chinet chi il us \( randy \) w rites video blaster n't work ati graphics ultra pro , n't work 15m system ram serious \? ca n't use video blaster 16mb 486 33 \? alternatives \( removing memory \? \) get better one win tv thing \? gates dawn banshee cats ucsc edu calling head \? od 0667 friend beast banshee ucscb ucsc edu 2 , 3 , 5 , 7 , 13 , 17 , 19 , 31 , 61 , 89 , 107 , 127 , 521 , 607 banshee ucscb bitnet good watchit tv run dos windows win tv run windows sorry still good watchit tv work local bus video work high modes either people make card assure card available june supports local bus hi res btw anyone know name company makes watchit tv \? phone \? bbs \? internet \? thanks michael grant \( mikgr wordperfect com \) \( mikgr wpsun4 uunet uu net \) spectrum , seems work nicely video windows setup \( 386 25 , 17 ms hd , pas 16 , orchid f va \) , board could handle 15 frame eric
ampex com \( eric hung \) subject help ! installing second ide drive nntp posting host organization ampex corporation , redwood city ca lines 37 another possibility 85mb one already partitioned two seperate drives , c , cmos asks c drive drive setup info rather drive 1 drive 2 like others 've seen could confusing things \? , need help ! drive came bereft docs , except info cmos setup controller little piece paper size index card cable \( 's one connector end one middle , looks like serial connection \) lost ! many , many thanks advance ! practically emergency \( two papers thing monday ! \) ! help ! william barnes suranet operations wbarnes sura net \( 301 \) 982 4600 voice \( 301 \) 982 4605 fax disclaimer n't speak suranet n't speak 've told local computer guru ca n't unless perform low level format existing hard drive set system two hard drives beginning took word , tried find , i'm going back everything add another hdd anyone knows sure scoop , would like know also thanks advance also bill willis bought ide drive dealer , 't perform low level format even 1st hd already partitioned c , fdisk automatically assign 2 nd hd change 2nd partition 1st drive e check jumper settings cmos setup , particular correct number cylinders tracks
xor clotho acm rpi edu \( joe schwartz \) subject nutek faces wrath \( article ! ! ! ! ! ! \) read article rpi organization corporation , troy , ny lines 28 nntp posting host acm rpi edu article 129 228 20 182 xetron com \( david p \) writes believe apple patent region features quickdraw mac clone would implement regions apple 's comment believe possible make mac clone without infringing patents may patents like apple patented implementation regions , presumably includes internal data structure \( never officially documented apple \) apple cannot patent concept region i'm guessing either nutek reverse engineered apple 's internal data structure regions \( dunno would hold court \) , came data structure 's latter , wo n't able draw pict files containing regions besides pict files , n't many places regions stored disk \( quicktime movies , perhaps \? \) long region n't stored disk transferred mac nutek clone \( vice versa \) , n't matter nutek uses completely different internal data structure remember reading apple also patent adb hardware , nutek clones would therefore lacking adb port patents apple mac \? joe schwartz e mail xor acm rpi edu xor clotho acm rpi edu corp 200 broadway opinions similarity troy , ny 12180 opinions corporation purely coincidental
magnus acs ohio state edu \( howard p marvel \) subject opinion laserwriter select 310 \? article magnus 1993apr5 organization ohio state university lines 12 nntp posting host bottom magnus acs ohio state edu wife one much chance fiddle , comparison canon engines , complains print light taste difference quite apparent even print setting select 310 adjusted possible level n't find objectionable , indeed rather like , warned people n't care considerably different recall years ago lots debates write black vs write white engines dealing tex drivers something like going \?
narain ih nxt09 cso uiuc edu \( nizam arain \) subject floptical question article news reply narain uiuc edu organization university illinois urbana lines 17 hi looking buying floptical drive , wondering experience people drives iomega , pli , mass microsystems , procom seem main drives market advice \? also , heard article macworld \( sep '92 , think \) flopticals could someone post summary , \? thanks advance \( reply post email , whichever prefer \) nizam nizam arain makes universe \( 217 \) 384 4671 hard comprehend internet narain uiuc edu nothing nextmail narain sumter cso uiuc edu compare
snll llnl gov \( clark dean f \) subject centris cache bernoulli box article snll 519 distribution world organization sandia national laboratories lines 27 article 1993apr2 548 byu edu byu edu writes tried running bernoulli box centris driver software seems work 040 cache get message macintosh disk wish initialize iomega driver 3 4 2 newer version works 040 's \? something wrong \? clark theory byu edu version 3 5 1 believe needed 040 machine able get newest version calling tech support 1 800 456 modem get driver bbs 801 778 4400 dean dean clark internet ca sandia gov
glang slee01 srl ford com \( gordon lang \) subject please help find video hardware article fmsrl7 organization ford motor company research laboratory lines 19 nntp posting host slee01 srl ford com x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 article crossposted comp sys hp author gordon lang posted 5 apr 1993 23 25 27 gmt article crossposted comp sys ibm pc hardware author gordon lang posted 5 apr 1993 23 19 01 gmt need device \( either isa board subsystem \) take two rgb video signals combine according template template simple rectangular window signal one used interior signal two exterior beleive may also exist want exclude search know sort hardware exists ntsc , etc need rgb please email post leads gordon lang \( glang smail srl ford com glang srl ford com \)
faraday ece cmu edu \( charles holden \) subject ftp site radius software \? \? \? organization electrical computer engineering , carnegie mellon hey , anyone know ftp get newest version soft pivot radius \? bought pivot monitor , old version software wo n't work c650 , radius said would 4 5 weeks delivery thanks ! chuck
jcav ellis uchicago edu \( johnc \) subject opinion laserwriter select 310 \? reply jcav midway uchicago edu organization royal society putting things top things lines 10 model one two low cost laser printers apple introduced i'm thinking getting one use home experience printer \? level 2 postscript \? 've bought one , happy \? john cavallino email jcav midway uchicago edu university chicago hospitals john cavallino bsd uchicago edu office facilities management usmail 5841 maryland ave , mc b0 f w c g k e h p chicago , il 60637
jcav ellis uchicago edu \( johnc \) subject like apple color \? reply jcav midway uchicago edu organization royal society putting things top things lines 13 're set buy one office , use scanning color photographs optical character recognition 've played original grayscale pleased color model comparable quality \? also , brand ocr software would recommend \? 're leaning toward caere omnipage better ideas \? thanks john cavallino email jcav midway uchicago edu university chicago hospitals john cavallino bsd uchicago edu office facilities management usmail 5841 maryland ave , mc b0 f w c g k e h p chicago , il 60637
slacvm slac stanford edu \( patrick \) subject file server mac article organization slac lines 3 saw article new line macs configured work optimally file servers anyone know details \?
ronaldw sco com \( ronald wong \) subject powerbook duo batteries article ronaldw distribution na organization sco developer relations lines 32 article usenet ucs indiana edu , kssimon silver ucs indiana edu \( kenneth steven simon \) wrote hades coos dartmouth edu \( brian v hughes \) writes knowledge way fully discharge duo battery program 0 , freeware , option called quick discharge find mac archives , probably sumex aim stanford edu mac archive umich edu good luck ! kenneth simon department sociology kssimon indiana edu indiana university hidden option \? i'm using 2 0 \( mr \) right ca n't find quick discharge option definitely mac archive umich edu 'cause submitted ! ron wong santa cruz operation 408 427 net comm segment mgr 400 street , po box 1900 fax 425 marketing mgr santa cruz , ca 1900 e mail uunet ! sco ! ronaldw ronaldw sco com
mark co uk \( mark \) subject sale macintosh se 30 organization srl data lines 26 x useragent nuntius v1 1 sale apple macintosh se 30 8mb ram , 80mb hd system 7 1 installed rasterops 264 30 24 bit video card se 30 apple 13 monitor carrying case i'm offers region 1250 pounds i'm north london area contact mark e mail pascal cix compulink co uk mark co uk phone 081 341 6400 \( evenings weekends \) 071 267 \( office hours \) mark srl data mark co uk pascal cix compulink co uk
kathy mindlink bc ca \( kathy \) subject sound input se 30 organization mind link ! british columbia , canada lines 19 couple questions multimedia set 1 anybody phone fax number , e mail address , name principal cedar technologies dublin , new hampshire \? post office box number , want ask couple questions sending money info much appreciated 2 i'm running se 30 , came microphone way , using macrecorder cedar 's digitizer similar software , input recorded sound mac \? i'm trying play short interview clips hypercard stack thanks help kathy
faraday clas virginia edu \( jason harvey titus \) subject help install ram centris 610 organization university virginia lines 8 asked everyone problems installing 4 meg simm 8 meg simm centris 610 , folks local apple store called folks cupertino found ca n't simms different speeds one machine , even fast enough ie 80 ns 8 meg 60ns 4 meg simms thought people might want know jason
dale adams gateway qm apple com \( dale adams \) subject q800 video ram questions distribution na organization apple computer , inc , cupertino , ca lines 45 article 1993apr5 cbnews cb att com cbnews cb att com \( joseph \) writes could someone post definitive answer vram configuration q800 \( presumably c610 c650 well \) seems lot confusion issue 'd like know kind simms vram simms \( e 30 pin , etc \) \? 's one physical size vram simms \( unlike dram simms come many , many sizes pinouts \) , although come differing amounts vram ones need simms , organized 128k x 16 , two 128k x 8 vram chips size quadra centris machines use many vram simm slots \? two rules \( \) must followed filling slots \( e g pairs , sizes must match , etc \) \? simm slots must filled putting simm one slot nothing fast must \? 80 ns q800 c650 , 100 ns c610 relevant information \? certain vram chip manufacturers whose parts compatible quadra centris video hardware make sure source get guarantees general , works q950 , work q800 please n't reply unless correct information many thanks advance helping eliminate noise group trust \) dale adams apple computer , inc
drake edu \( \) subject 14 monitors article 1993apr6 distribution na organization drake university , des moines , iowa , usa lines 12 related note , 1304 work centris 650 internal video give multiple resolutions \? i'm curious thanks ! kevin technical support drake , inc
scot mv com \( scot salmon \) subject nutek email \? organization john leslie consulting , milford nh lines 9 nutek \( anyone nutek \) email address \? , \? \) good things books robert heinlein , music , computers apple , humor dave barry , thursday nights nbc , scotland scot salmon \( scot mv com \)
eecs umich edu \( eric \) subject 14 monitors reply fredm media mit edu 's message wed , 31 mar 1993 20 39 45 gmt organization university michigan eecs department distribution na lines 37 article 1993mar31 news media mit edu fredm media mit edu \( fred g martin \) writes part posting removed sony cpd 1304 better video circuitry either two monitors display apple 640x480 , vga 640x480 , vga 800x600 \( though 56 hz flicker \) , apple 832x624 \( 75 hz refresh flicker \) might able display apple 's 1024x768 , i'm sure , pixels would real small anyway might useful note either sony monitor , need proper adapter , connects video signals properly , also informs macintosh video hardware display mode use part posting removed fred martin fredm media mit edu \( 617 \) 253 20 ames st rm 301 epistemology learning group , mit media lab cambridge , 02139 usa i'm assuming cabling tells mac , startup , kind monitor connected think 've seen ads popular mac magazines products \( i'm sure 's monitor , video card , package \) allow change resolutions fly \( w restarting mac \) buy 1304 , would possible switch back forth apple 640x480 apple 832x624 without restarting mac \? strictly hardware startup function , software intervene , mac hardware occasionally probe cable setting switch automatically \? thanks , eric \( eecs umich edu \)
lex optimla aimla com \( lex van sonderen \) subject cd rom multisession nntp posting host organization philips interactive media america lines 19 article msuinfo cl msu edu gary cal msu edu writes said know multisession cd rom necessary photos cd rom drive second session need one \? write second time cd need multi session capability read second session whether photos data whatever simplified way looking first session directory structure burned tracks second session newer directory structure , first directory still exists , cannot change , add put 'normal' drive look first directory think found data multisession means drive look last directory written disc , older systems look directory , taking multiple directories account lex van sonderen philips interactive media
f2ehg786 umiami ir miami edu subject disappointed la cie organization univ miami ir lines 52 approximately four months ago , purchased quantum hd la cie 649 two months , drive started problems first , intermittent freezes , corrupted files resources , silverlining 5 41 would n't even recognize drive got rma la cie exchanged new drive reconditioned one well , month passed second drive problems often , boot iisi get flashing question mark sometimes , insert silverlining \( 5 42 \) program get recognize drive making scan drives point restart iisi boot hd 've called la cie 've given another rma tech support people tell silverlining n't see drive 's definite hardware problem given second bad drive four months , asked la cie send new one , said also , within three weeks purchased original drive , la cie dropped price 100 accept drive \( two \) may bad know hardware vendors make practice sending reconditioned replacements repairs understand nature computer industry lends sudden price fluctuations nevertheless , taken together , convergence facts events left bad taste mouth \( added asked la cie transfer contents current drive one send think data still good shape 'll reinstall everything floppies said would cost 250 data recovery \) seems reconditioned hardware sold reconditioned discounted price , replacements new hardware gone bad \( still covered 90 day warranty \) new feel little helpless n't mean necessarily flame la cie support staff always friendly sometimes even helpful c'mon sometimes little extra customer service goes long way \( sent letter la cie 's customer service first drive returned asked credit price difference since purchased drive three weeks slashed price told would like apply credit toward purchase another la cie product n't even courtesy reply one way \) 's moral story \? i'm sure know wo n't buy products la cie future bill f2ehg786 umiami ir miami edu ps please n't email post good la cie product service i'm suggesting good company anything like i'm saying 've disappointing experience 'll taking business elsewhere future
iscs nus sg subject 60 terminal emulator reply iscs nus sg organization dept info sys comp sci , national university singapore , singapore lines 6 60 terminal emulator comms toolbox kit available net somewhere \? thanks vince
ad dcs st ac uk \( tony \) subject nutek faces wrath \( article ! ! ! ! ! ! \) read nntp posting host dcs st ac uk organization st andrews university lines 24 article 1993mar31 leland stanford edu , tedebear leland stanford edu \( theodore chen \) writes n't copyright equivalent res doctrine , 's something kind similar show infringement , one element need show defendant copied work 're lucky , 'll direct evidence copying smoking gun normally , evidence , showing evidence access one might reasonably infer copying evidence access considered along similarities two works deciding whether copied however , similarities strong striking , inference copying may drawn even without evidence defendant access copyrighted work case , burden defendant rebut inference copying example , evidence 'd desert island last ten years contact civilization wow ! know lawyers rich computer scientists poor ! lawyers \( sound \) understand stuff
cr cs strath ac uk \( chris reid \) subject quadra 700 memory upgrade organization univ strathclyde , glasgow , uk lines 18 distribution world nntp posting host simpson 06 cs strath ac uk hi folks , exactly maximum memory put quadra 700 manual says 20mb \( 4 x 4mb simms \) , macwarehouse like advertise 16mb simms give total 's wrong \? anybody got \? thanks , chris chris reid cr cs strath ac uk
ccwf cc utexas edu \( bruce \) subject built video article geraldo reply ccwf cc utexas edu \( bruce \) distribution usa organization university texas austin , austin tx lines 14 nntp posting host sneezy cc utexas edu originator sneezy cc utexas edu many questions experts pertaining apple 's built video 1 , macs built video ability use vga monitors \? 2 , , macs capability \? 3 , drive svga well \? 4 , big vga monitor drive \? 5 , tell monitor vga \? pinouts \? , look like \? particularly , i'm interested knowing si ci drive vga , well lc 's capabilities driving vga svga thanks ! ! !
tomj pnet16 cts com \( tom jenkins \) subject lciii vs centris 610 \? organization people net pnet16 , lines 8 title says 'd particularly interested performance difference much faster \( 50 \? \) centris 610 lciii \? tom uucp ! nctams1 ! pnet16 ! tomj arpa ! nctams1 ! pnet16 ! tomj nosc mil inet tomj pnet16 cts com
iastate edu \( c miller \) subject results mathematica speed tests ! ! organization iowa state university , ames , ia lines 84 well , results mathematica test posted newsgroup test following command \( \( 2 9000 \) \( 2 3 1416 \( \( x 5000 \) 2 \( 8000 \) 2 \) 1 5 \) \) \( \( 3 9000 \) \( 2 3 1416 \( \( x 10000 \) 2 \( 1000 \) 2 \) 1 5 \) \) \( \( 4 2000 \) \( 2 3 1416 \( \( x 7000 \) 2 \( 10000 \) 2 \) 1 5 \) \) , x , 5500 , , , 5500 , , 50 curious fast plot command would executed various macintosh machines well personal computers workstations results posted machine system math vers trials time , min pb 170 7 0 0 2 1 2 2 08 8mb ram 5mb mathematica dec 5000 ultrix v4 2a 2 1 1 0 25 dec risc iisi 7 1 cache 1 1 4 30 25mhz 5mb ram 3mb math w 68882 c650 7 1 8mb ram 2 0 32 q800 8mb cache 384 1 2 1 01 4mb math sparc sunos4 1 3 0 14 station 40mb ram sgi iris 4d r3000 risc 0 01 processor version sparc sunos4 1 2 2 1 0 26 iisi 7 1 3 15 next nextstep 2 1 1 2 2 38 cube 68030 based w coprocessor next nextstep 3 0 1 2 5 \( ave \) 0 52 cube 68040 25mhz 20 mb ram iisi 8mb 2 102 3 15 math w 68882 next 16mb ram 1 0 37 25 mhz 040 workspace manager 2 1 funny iisi running 25 mhz slower equivalent machines , lots slower fact perhaps version mathematica makes difference fact much ram allocated another interesting thing fast sgi wow basically , though , would n't draw conclusions data seems mathematica 's speed dependant lot variables curious different machines would measure well , questions forgot something , drop line iastate edu chad ps spacing table n't come right machine , tell 'll mail copy word 5 1 document
farrar cogsci ucsd edu \( scott farrar \) subject caps lock vs control \( apple keyboard \) organization university california , san diego lines 9 distribution world nntp posting host cogsci ucsd edu please excuse redirect already answered , small utility switches functionality caps lock key ctrl key powerbook keyboard \? use ctrl key far caps lock , would convenient comfortable thank help , scott farrar
subject mac laserjet iiip husc8 harvard edu \( richard \) nntp posting host husc8 harvard edu lines 12 friend mac \( lc lc ii think \) , family extra laserjet iiip sitting around way connect two make work without postscript cartridge \? told random friend mentioned something software package could translation rick rick husc harvard edu 617 493 617 493 harvard yard mail center cambridge , 02138 usa
dale adams gateway qm apple com \( dale adams \) subject help install ram centris 610 organization apple computer inc lines 23 article murdoch acc virginia edu faraday clas virginia edu \( jason harvey titus \) writes asked everyone problems installing 4 meg simm 8 meg simm centris 610 , folks local apple store called folks cupertino found ca n't simms different speeds one machine , even fast enough ie 80 ns 8 meg 60ns 4 meg simms thought people might want know 's absolutely reason differences dram access time alone would cause incompatibility would another difference simms problem 've often used memory different speeds problems whatsoever long 's fast \( faster \) minimum requirement fine curiosity , actually try see problem , told would n't work never tried \? also curiosity , know exactly cupertino dealer talked \( 'd like find 're basing recommendation \) dale adams apple computer , inc
minyos xx rmit oz au \( douglas barry mcpherson \) subject laser writer iintx upgrade kit organization royal melbourne institute technology lines 15 nntp posting host minyos xx rmit oz au could someone please tell laserwriter iintx upgrade kit small box , bag inn , seemingly containing 6 chips \( look like roms \) iintx manual installation instructions informative say , full , product must installed apple \? first thought might nt ntx upgrade , thought required entirely new board info appreciated doug
chairman staff tc umn edu \( gene \) subject sale ethernet board 24 bit supermac combo article news2 organization u lines 26 x xxmessage id dialup slip 1 6 gw umn edu x xxdate mon , 5 apr 93 04 29 34 gmt nntp posting host dialup slip 1 6 gw umn edu x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d17 gene 's stuff sale new prices ! ! ! following items sale qty description list price 1 supermac sx 24 bit nubus 10base 750 00 549 00 card ! selling 675 mailorder monitors 19 28 x 28 virtual desktop accelerated , hardware pan , etc ! quick sale price includes free 2nd day air ! 1 seagate 430 meg 3 5 hd 2 mo old 989 00 675 00 note hardware normal working order prices include shipping items shipped cod \( usa \) pre paid \( anywhere \) sold 1 iisi nubus adapter card fpu 189 00 115 00 items please contact gene chairman staff tc umn edu call \( 612 \) 942
alexander samuel mcdiarmid am2o andrew cmu edu subject se serial port speed \? \? \? \? organization sophomore , mechanical engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 14 nntp posting host po4 andrew cmu edu reply andrew cmu edu excerpts cmu comp sys mac 5 apr 93 se serial port speed \? \? \? \? samuel john andrew sorry , got bit technical answer question , mac se problem whatsoever communicating modem 57 , 600 bps less , since modems fast n't exist yet \( standardized form \) , 's need worry actually 14 4 kbps modem using standard compression \( v3 2 v4 2 bis \? \) cna reach 57 , 600 bps , however seen server modems hardware compression told annex modems break 36k , never seen faster 14
student tc umn edu \( bret \) subject cheap video card lc \? w fpu \? nntp posting host dialup slip 1 33 gw umn edu organization university minnesota lines 7 wondering anyone info experience video fpu mac lc , thinking adding second monitor , likely grayscale bret exp \( pi \) 1 0 university minnesota electrical engineering
iastate edu \( c miller \) subject lciii vs centris 610 \? article news organization iowa state university , ames , ia lines 29 article 1993apr5 nctams1 uucp tomj pnet16 cts com \( tom jenkins \) writes title says 'd particularly interested performance difference much faster \( 50 \? \) centris 610 lciii \? tom uucp ! nctams1 ! pnet16 ! tomj arpa ! nctams1 ! pnet16 ! tomj nosc mil inet tomj pnet16 cts com apple came demos iowa state , got chance run 1 new macs machines running system7 1 , 14 rgb n't know caches set neither machine fpu appears quite bit faster lc iii lciii cpu 13 01 6 92 15 67 7 69 disk 2 22 2 44 math 25 57 10 19 p r rating 12 91 6 58 , comparison definitely noticable speed difference two machines according 1 chad
hk mlr forsythe stanford edu \( mark rogowsky \) subject iintx upgrade \? organization stanford university lines 27 nntp posting host morrow stanford edu article xx rmit oz au , minyos xx rmit oz au \( douglas barry mcpherson \) writes could someone please tell laserwriter iintx upgrade kit small box , bag inn , seemingly containing 6 chips \( look like roms \) iintx manual installation instructions informative say , full , product must installed apple \? first thought might nt ntx upgrade , thought required entirely new board info appreciated doug kit already existing laserwriter iintx rom upgrade replaces font rasterizer code efficient , code first became available adobe type manager 1 0 software came original called atm rasterizer standard postscript printers mark
kssimon silver ucs indiana edu \( kenneth steven simon \) subject powerbook duo batteries summary goofed ! article usenet distribution na organization indiana university lines 31 nntp posting host silver ucs indiana edu ronaldw sco com \( ronald wong \) writes article usenet ucs indiana edu , kssimon silver ucs indiana edu \( kenneth steven simon \) wrote program 0 , freeware , option called quick discharge find mac archives , probably sumex aim stanford edu mac archive umich edu hidden option \? i'm using 2 0 \( mr \) right ca n't find quick discharge option definitely mac archive umich edu 'cause submitted ! apologies ! goofed quick discharge option part powerbook utilities package \( cpu \) installed day , n't pay enough attention \) anyway , option exist buy cpu ! 're even real signature file kenneth simon dept sociology , indiana university internet kssimon indiana edu bitnet kssimon iubacs
chromium iss nus sg \( tng tai hou \) subject adb graphics tablet help ! organization institute systems science , nus lines 13 help ! ! ! adb tablet want connect quadra 950 unfortunately , 950 one adb port seems would give mouse please , someone help \? want use tablet well mouse \( keyboard course ! ! ! \) thanks advance tai hou tng singapore
alexander samuel mcdiarmid am2o andrew cmu edu subject help install ram centris 610 organization sophomore , mechanical engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 22 nntp posting host andrew cmu edu reply murdoch acc virginia edu excerpts netnews comp sys mac misc 5 apr 93 help install ram cen jason harvey titus farad faraday clas virginia edu \( jason harvey titus \) subject help install ram centris 610 date mon , 5 apr 1993 20 05 51 gmt asked everyone problems installing 4 meg simm 8 meg simm centris 610 , folks local apple store called folks cupertino found ca n't simms different speeds one machine , even fast enough ie 80 ns 8 meg 60ns 4 meg simms thought people might want know jason oh boy confused , thought entire point 72 pin simms could use diffrent size simms could avoid use sets horror stories withstanding
undergrad math uwaterloo ca \( dominic cheng \) subject centris cache bernoulli box organization university waterloo lines 7 need driver ver 3 5 2 work quadra centris download iomega bbs 1 801 778 4400 dominic cheng \( descartes uwaterloo ca \) computer science , university waterloo , ontario , canada
undergrad math uwaterloo ca \( dominic cheng \) subject centris 610 impression organization university waterloo lines 15 playing centris 610 almost week must say machine really fast ! hardware turn feature annoying , got circuits works like charm however , still complaints restart machine every time , screen image \( desktop pattern \) jerks times quantum 170 drive noisy overall , highly recommend fast , affordable looks great ! dominic cheng \( descartes uwaterloo ca \) computer science , university waterloo , ontario , canada
dleonard wixer cactus org \( dale leonard \) subject wise remove fan classic \? organization real time communications lines 22 article vd volvo se \( hans \) writes wise even think removing annoying fan classic \? warranty void get screwdriver fit funny screws \? hans , volvo data corp , gothenburg , sweden opinions every complex problem exists easy solution 's correct screws torx screws tool n't hard find 's matter finding one long enough shaft trick good idea take fan cause stuff heat internal hard drives , motherboard name cause damage 've known people hard drive failures fans n't work right dale leonard judy 's stamps \( misc topical stamps dogs dleonard wixer cactus org cats baseball many many subjects austin , tx stamp information call tony leonard \( 512 \) 834 \( number \) \( 512 \) 837 business number ! ! !
jarthur claremont edu \( kurt \) subject comparative scsi performance article news organization harvey mudd college , claremont ca 91711 lines 8 could someone direct information scsi performance mac \? \( max throughput , etc \) kurt jarthur claremont edu please email thanks !
cf947 cleveland freenet edu \( chun hung wan \) subject opinion laserwriter select 310 \? article usenet psr reply cf947 cleveland freenet edu \( chun hung wan \) organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 25 nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu previous article , jcav ellis uchicago edu \( johnc \) says model one two low cost laser printers apple introduced i'm thinking getting one use home experience printer \? level 2 postscript \? 've bought one , happy \? john cavallino email jcav midway uchicago edu university chicago hospitals john cavallino bsd uchicago edu office facilities management usmail 5841 maryland ave , mc b0 f w c g k e h p chicago , il 60637 frankly , think model screwup 2 , 13 fonts , even fine print , even 300 model ! shocked kind features get printer hoping decent printer replace personal laser writers motion picture major brooks institute photography , ca santa barbara foreign student kuala lumpur , malaysia mind forerunner states
ucs unimelb edu au \( jester \) subject info apple 8 24gc requested organization comedy company lines 25 article 1993apr5 edvz uni ac , mueller edvz uni ac writes newsgroups comp sys mac hardware article serge , umontreal ca writes info video processor sit , way program chip \? makes chip \? apple never able provide docs tools program chip value least value per piece computer hardware ever bought due complete lack support tools refund us buyers card europeans left rain agree completely , refund people bought gc quadra seen alpha version extension apple called 8 24 gc quicktime video quicktime compression decompression cpu card seems done even though developer article states gc ca n't programmed asked suggestions sent anyway steve melbourne university
subject mac os 486 ! ! ! keith whitehead sir office acme gen nz x mailer buggy , mean beta , test version lines 45 article imag fr , write \( plk af mil \) wrote deathbird cmu edu \( donpaul c stephens \) kind slated would n't say \? \) going throw side get mac os 486 \? \? \? quite point ! fact apple release system 7 \( ever current time release \) see shortly afterwards apple longer producing hardware look next see happens going pay apples prices get thing cheaper else ! \( heck get sun workstation cheaper quadra , infact number times ! ! ! , comes \) apple released windows 3 0 released 'd behind , missed boat apple continued development support p5 fullest capabilities \? run faster windows \? must something significantly better windows os2 warrent released continued becomming less less profit hardware , next step \( pun intended well sort \) , make money software \( look microsoft think ca n't happen ! \) , sell multiple pieces software one hardware platform also said windows nightmare programmers , temptation sell system 7 couple million dos users much apple ! \( 50 million copies 100 serious money ! \) sir office acme gen nz dont get government pay !
bauer informatik uni ulm de \( christian bauer \) subject macplus freezes 1 hour use , fails boot nntp posting host christian informatik uni ulm de organization university ulm lines 27 article tamsun tamu edu , mclean math tamu edu \( robert mclean \) wrote macplus problems seem temperature related using freezes turn , screen n't show disk icon , goes dark consulted larry 's book could find symptoms anybody else seen symptoms \? suggestions \? temperature dependent , clean problems based exp must say connections power supply monitor main board usable failure , ram simms badly connected due corrosion last phase \( lower voltage \) following used technical terms 1 \) clean mentioned contacts contact spray 2 \) 5 volt level 3 \) use calm fan think preventing dust floppy ! \( fixed piece paper prevent \) n't know beg friendly technician ! christian bauer bauer informatik uni ulm de
bauer informatik uni ulm de \( christian bauer \) subject cd300 300i nntp posting host christian informatik uni ulm de organization university ulm lines 18 article andrew cmu edu , donpaul c stephens deathbird cmu edu wrote difference \? want double spin cd rom drive may looking nec apple , best \? nec toshiba sony \( apple \) nearly deliver speed apples prices low \( compared ram simms \) buy think driver revisions easier get driver kits apple every manufacturer christian bauer bauer informatik uni ulm de
cats ucsc edu \( joseph manuel \) subject y'all think iivx \? organization university california santa cruz lines 28 nntp posting host ucsc edu article minerva cis yale edu bell peter yale edu \( peter bell \) writes advisor decided get mac lab funded consensus lab really needed lciii , decided wanted centris 610 lack fpu machine , price , struck making worth less lciii , suggested get iivx instead seems heavily expandable , people iivx 's think \? seem like good machines , like nubus slots case ultimately decide want work video iivx lciii performance centris 610 price reason get iivx really need full size nubus slots keep mind 610 supports apple monitors optional ethernet \( n't eliminate \) need nubus cards unless 're running fpu intensive software , 610 blow doors lciii iivx lciii , hand , sufficient people great price n't guessed , find bus clock \( iivx 32mhz vs 16mhz bus \) throughly bad thing hope apple never joe cats ucsc edu
mel shear uucp subject adapter cable vga monitors lines 51 anyone know makes cable adapter wired according apple 's specs forces external output lc 's powerbook 's 160 180 duo 230 true vga style output signal \? nec adapter since monitors multisync route signal correct pinout switch macs output vga mode make one someone already one made \? \? following apple spec lc cpu vga cable adapter i'm assuming powerbooks duos work adapter \( \? \) macintosh lc vga macintosh lc supply 640 x 480 , vga timed signal use vga monitors using adapter cable standard macintosh lc supports vga 16 colors , optional 512k vram simm , vga monitor supported 256 colors note macintosh lc supplies signals capable driving ttl level inputs however , low impedance input vga monitors work macintosh lc connect macintosh lc vga monitor , need make adapter cable macintosh lc video connector vga monitor following pinout description adapter cable macintosh lc vga video connector pin signal name 1 6 red ground 2 1 red video signal 5 2 green video signal 6 7 green ground 9 3 blue video signal 13 8 blue ground 15 13 12 14 14 10 ground 7 , 10 nc tied together vga monitors identified shorting pin 7 pin 10 macintosh lc video connector macintosh lc grounds pin 7 video connector , results pulling pin 10 gives correct monitor id vga monitor message created mcw bbs jointly supported new orleans mac user group national home school user group user uucp views expressed posting individual author
hw ac uk \( stuart w \) subject macintosh lisa dot matrix parallel printer organization dept computing electrical engineering , watt university , scotland lines 15 got dot matrix printer came lisa \( think \) wish attach pc , manual told sort c itoh printer disguise anyone help manuals info codes send select fonts , italics etc want write printer driver thanks advance stuart stuart dod watt university sky black edinburgh therefore god , st scotland , supporter ! ! ! 031 451 031 451 3261 fax god may harley e mail uk ac hw \( janet \) pope rides guzzi !
aw co uk \( alain \) subject new duo dock info organization cambridge consultants ltd , cambridge , uk lines 7 article nazario 42 kstar node net yale edu , nazario pop cis yale edu \( nazario \) writes info give rumour , 's truth new macintosh coming second quarter , cpu excuse macs got cpu ! ! ! alain
freenet carleton ca \( michel \) subject powerbook batteries reply freenet carleton ca \( michel \) organization national capital freenet lines 20 previous article , gil cc gatech edu \( gil \) says questions powerbook batteries , specifically , nicad batteries pb170 2 powerbook run without battery charger plugged \? problems michel , ontario , canada freenet carleton ca du club de cerf de du national capital macintosh club du jungle bbs un macintosh
mtholyoke edu \( diane \) subject quadra 800 configurations \? \? article slab organization mount holyoke college lines 19 nntp posting host slab mtholyoke edu x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 've noticed mentioning owning quadra 800 8 230 cd300 1meg vram seems configuration purchased complete , cd300 vram already installed box interested exact configuration buying educational discount found cd300 bundled q800 smaller 8 500 bought know buy 8 230 cd installed , please let know know via email send messages mhc mtholyoke edu thanks , diane diane internet mhc mtholyoke edu department psychology education mount holyoke college south hadley , \( 413 \) 538
vm temple edu \( dick grant \) subject memory plus se organization temple university lines 8 nntp posting host vm temple edu x newsreader nnr vm 1 3 2 increase memory plus se \( i'm sure since n't seen yet \) years ago longer instructions forget resistor needs cut go 1 4 mbs anyone direct information \? doc diagrams \? thanks , dick grant
chrism col hp com \( chris \) subject forsale radius precision color 24x video card organization hp colorado springs division lines 22 nntp posting host col hp com radius precision color 24x video card mac fits nubus slot card 3 mb vram , means 24 bit color possible card ! card supports monitor scan rate think \( used 640x480 , 800x600 1024x768 , go higher \) switch resolutions depth fly software control panel accelerated version card , means quickdraw calls executed cpu taken video card , freeing mac processor tasks cheapest could find card called around last night 1738 mac 's place sell 1250 shipping year old never problem comes software original manuals hurry ! chris chrism col hp com hewlett packard company \( 719 \) 590
daimi aau dk \( thomas martin \) subject position 'b' erg keyboard organization daimi computer science department , aarhus university , denmark lines 12 far seen pictures new ergonomic keyboard , seems 'b' placed left part split however , learned typing school years ago , taught write 'b' right hand difference danish american typing , \? \? \? thanks lot advance ! thomas daimi aau dk petit
glenn network ucsd edu \( glenn \) subject laserwriter pro 600 memory upgrade \( 4 8 \) summary apple dealers provide free upgrade keywords apple printer , memory upgrade article network distribution world organization university california , san diego lines 25 nntp posting host network ucsd edu 've got official word laserwriter pro 600 memory upgrade got phone quite friendly donna rossi apple customer assistance tells purchased laserwriter pro 600 4 megabyte \( , greyscale \) configuration contact original dealers supposed provide 4 meg memory upgrade n't know , extra 4 meg allow printing greyscale \( \) dealers questions , directed hardware support numbers apple customer assistance 1 800 776 , 408 996 1010 \( corporate number \) regards , glenn p personally , i'm annoyed school bookstore really obligation provide information customers purchased 600 original configuration \( records 's ask things like phone number \) get upgrade completed , i'm going write apple complain
ere umontreal ca \( philippe \) subject y'all think iivx \? organization universite de montreal lines 23 cats ucsc edu \( joseph manuel \) writes iivx lciii performance centris 610 price unless 're running fpu intensive software , 610 blow doors lciii iivx benchmarks 've seen \( macuser macweek \? \) fpu less centris 610 faster floating point operations \( kind calculations get routed fpu \) mac iifx ! mac iifx \( 68030 40mhz fpu \) fastest 030 based mac take note , course , benchmarks never tell whole story get favorite program \( \) run machines store let hefty amount virtually , philippe philippe ere umontreal ca departement des sciences universite de montreal define disclaimer \( caught \) \( caught \? n't even ! n't ! \)
choo ecs umass edu subject techworks say \? lines 19 greetings ! ! i'm planning upgrade mac iisi \( 1 \) present \( 2 \) add math coprocessor technology works , austin \( texas \) comes quite highly recommended mac magazines anyone could share anything tech works \( good bad experiences \) give advice mail order companies may consider reply would much appreciated thanks advance sincerely peter choo choo sigma ecs umass edu
eos ncsu edu \( \) subject ethernet localtalk quadra \? article ncsu 1993apr6 distribution na organization north carolina state university , project eos lines 8 used serial ports modem serial printer , cannot use appletalk ethernet localtalk hardware let use ethernet port q700 localtalk port come satellite dishes sit window give internet access home , wo n't using port
peter com \( peter da silva \) subject dcc next dat dds like story \? organization xenix support , lines 15 article 1zz newcastle ac uk tor olav newcastle ac uk \( tor olav \) writes another thing , scsi interface \? scsi works well removable media , works well large capacity devices floppy interface suggest handles former , n't hooks dealing latter 'd kludge plus , 's extremely low performance , scsi room expansion compared floppy \( see , let 's stick 5 25 , 3 5 , tape drive , mo drive , floppy interface possibilities unexpected collisions enormous \) peter da silva ` ' network management technologies incorporated west airport blvd sugar land , tx usa 1 713 274 al \?
pion rutgers edu \( gregory nelson \) subject thanks apple free ethernet c610 ! article pion apr 6 12 05 34 1993 organization rutgers univ , new brunswick , n j lines 26 well , got centris 610 yesterday took two weeks placing order dealer \( rutgers computer store \) apple made substitution order ordered one without ethernet , substituted one ethernet wanted know would alright ! ! ! must w ethernet 're shipping ! anyway , i'm happy 610 exceptions , decided open powering first time scsi cable hard drive partially connected \( must come loose shipping \) big deal , would pissed tried boot would n't come ! hard drive also annoying high pitched whine 've heard apple exchange complain , might try get swapped also lack soft power n't mentioned literature saw also , location reset interupt buttons awful keyboard control functions much convenient oh , screen seems wierd way power 've seen mentioned others , must feature anyway , , 's fast great machine great price ! physics rutgers edu
hades coos dartmouth edu \( brian v hughes \) subject new apple ergo mouse reply hades dartmouth edu organization dartmouth college , hanover , nh disclaimer personally , really n't care think speak moderator rec arts comics info lines 19 utkvx utk edu \( schizophrenia means never alone \) writes anyone know open apple ergo mouse \( adb mouse ii \) \? mine lives near cat \( true , really \) picks fur tell , looks like apple welded shut must tried hard mine 2 seconds take look bottom , dial turns open much like older adb used 's bit harder turn first quite simple open also , anyone know installing mac lc iii \? 've heard people saying fried motherboard lc iii well , n't match pins correctly problems close look socket give idea proper orientation chip hades
hades coos dartmouth edu \( brian v hughes \) subject file server mac reply hades dartmouth edu organization dartmouth college , hanover , nh disclaimer personally , really n't care think speak moderator rec arts comics info lines 10 slacvm slac stanford edu \( patrick \) writes saw article new line macs configured work optimally file servers anyone know details \? check may issue macworld new servers cover favorite hades
hades coos dartmouth edu \( brian v hughes \) subject question 1024 x 768 quadra 800 reply hades dartmouth edu organization dartmouth college , hanover , nh disclaimer personally , really n't care think speak moderator rec arts comics info lines 15 bach udel edu \( roy \) writes article 1993apr5 apple com dale adams gateway qm apple com \( dale adams \) writes anyone information 1024 x 768 resolution q800 using video \? even possible \? 's certainly possible possible use resolution apple 16 monitor \? , could probably rig connector proper pins nope apple 16 monitor support multiple resolutions multi monitor hades
hades coos dartmouth edu \( brian v hughes \) subject installing ram quadra 800 reply hades dartmouth edu organization dartmouth college , hanover , nh disclaimer personally , really n't care think speak moderator rec arts comics info lines 55 ics uci edu \( scott \) writes aside brian hughes 's \( please , let 's lose cute phony names everybody \) posting adding memory quadra 800 phony names \? name clearly visible headers , sing post account name problem , get 've used account name 10 years people reading newsgroups last 7 generally recognize hades account name intention changing way post installed couple 16mb simms quadra somewhat dismayed general complexity operation compared , example , wonderfully designed lc iii apple refuses tell user 's manual guess disassemble devise question \( 's adding memory laserwriter pro 's \) n't apple 's responsibility tell customers fool around 's hardware apple service techs get paid personally like design q800 , applaud apple coming good way make use front space drive bays like lot better 900 950 design , except people need drive arrays , however , agree lw pro design operation n't complicated even minimal amount help offered apple leaves working blind , 's apple 's place make easy non certified service people fool around apple hardware , even buy course free want mac , n't get upset apple service rep tells warranty longer valid memory installed top simms came contact plastic case frame mine actually contacted framework quite lot pressure enough assembly board back proper position rather difficult required force could filed little excess material top simm boards chose let stand problems ram yet consider problem annoying catastrophic sounds like kind problem installed 4mb simms lc , back low profile 4mb simms readily available standard 4mb simms would contact top case make bit difficult close lc , close work fine one nice things logic boards generally quite flexible withstand fair amount pressure hades
po cwru edu \( joseph \) subject sigma designs double \? \? article usenet reply po cwru edu organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 8 nntp posting host thor ins cwru edu looking information sigma designs double board figure hardware compression board works autodoubler , sure also much would one cost \? joe po cwru edu
kssimon silver ucs indiana edu \( kenneth steven simon \) subject new duo dock info summary n't know products nntp posting host silver ucs indiana edu organization indiana university lines 27 aw co uk \( alain \) writes nazario pop cis yale edu \( nazario \) writes info give rumour , 's truth new macintosh coming second quarter , cpu excuse macs got cpu ! ! ! alain alain get facts straight post something like duo dock cpu docking station ports connecting various components , including portable powerbook cpu guess rumored new duo docks built cpu perform functions interesting ! 're compatible current duo models , think 'll hearing lot screwed apple complaints imagine company \( , new verb ! \) virtually brand new computer sheesh ken kenneth simon dept sociology , indiana university internet kssimon indiana edu bitnet kssimon iubacs
csugrad cs vt edu \( jacob rose \) subject position 'b' erg keyboard organization virginia tech computer science dept , blacksburg , va lines 17 nntp posting host csugrad cs vt edu daimi aau dk \( thomas martin \) writes far seen pictures new ergonomic keyboard , seems 'b' placed left part split however , learned typing school years ago , taught write 'b' right hand difference danish american typing , \? \? \? must type left hand personally , would real problem keyboard opened like , tend share keys hands , particularly i'm something else one hand \( like using cursor keys , mouse , glass jolt \) \( jacob rose \) amazing true much sand northern csugrad cs vt edu africa spread would cover
chyang leghorn engin umich edu \( chung hsiung yang \) subject cd300 300i organization university michigan engineering , ann arbor lines 28 distribution world nntp posting host leghorn engin umich edu originator chyang leghorn engin umich edu article bauer 134 60 68 23 , bauer informatik uni ulm de \( christian bauer \) writes article andrew cmu edu , donpaul c stephens deathbird cmu edu wrote difference \? want double spin cd rom drive may looking nec apple , best \? nec toshiba sony \( apple \) nearly deliver speed apples prices low \( compared ram simms \) buy think driver revisions easier get driver kits apple every manufacturer christian bauer bauer informatik uni ulm de thought nec toshiba cd rom mechanism average access time less 200 ms sony apple cd rom drive access time 300 ms models chung yang
gandalf rutgers edu \( ralph gonzalez \) subject using 1 4 mb disks mac ii \? article gandalf apr 6 13 20 40 1993 organization rutgers univ , new brunswick , n j lines 11 need get rom upgrade use 1 4 mb floppy drive mac ii \? 3rd party drives work mac ii 's roms \? thanks , ralph ralph gonzalez , computer science , rutgers univ , camden , nj phone \( 609 \) 225 internet gandalf rutgers edu
acs ucalgary ca \( victor p \) subject whats thermal recalibration quantum drives \? summary thermal recalibration hard drives article acs distribution na organization university calgary , alberta lines 36 nntp posting host acs3 acs ucalgary ca article 1993mar26 midway uchicago edu gary midway uchicago edu writes whether drive hooked computer , makes disk seek noise every 20 seconds consistent continue drive powered even disconnect drive computer , drive activity continues 20 second intervals someone tried tell drive thermal recalibration knowing beans internal physical workings lastest disk drive technology guess might believe anything whats scoop standalone drive activity every 20 sec \? comment thermal recalibration general new drives perform order increase overall integrity data writes basically , firmware instructs perform test see data tracks within certain physical tolerance , since media heats cools , track drift inevitable , drive monitor becomes especially critical high recording densities , used primarily large capacity mechanisms , seems finding way smaller drives way boosting drive 's long term reliability ratings first became aware thermal recalibration pointed technique conflicts prolonged write times digitizing , say , audio video hard disk manufacturers explicitly state drives thermal recalibration used applications prolonged disk writes hope helps victor
stsci edu \( drew justin \) subject ext hard drives se 30 organization space telescope science institute lines 20 i'm interested getting external hard drive se 30 've got internal 40mb 's pretty full , even compression w alot people talk mb , 's good ratio \? i'm thinking adding either 80 100 \( 105 \) brands would people suggest \? finally , places buy \? popular mail order places better order places sell hard drives \( e g ones advertise back macworld macuser \) thanks advance e mail replies sent , 'll compile post drew drew j space telescope science institute ai senior software engineer 3700 san martin drive advance planning systems branch baltimore , md 21218 , usa internet stsci edu \( 410 \) 338 4474 338 \( fax \)
ns111310 lance colostate edu \( nathaniel sammons \) subject price drop c650 within 2 months \? article yuma organization colorado state u engineering college lines 12 nntp posting host casco lance colostate edu going getting c650 soon , want apple come cyclones tempest month price drop system want negotiated good deal supplier c650 8 80 would like jump , , , n't want price drop btw , deal c650 8 80 mouse anyone know better deal \? thanks , nate ns111310 longs lance colostate edu
thomas kephart kephart snowhite eeap cwru edu subject thanks apple free ethernet c610 ! organization case school engineering lines 13 distribution world nntp posting host b62182 student cwru edu x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d20 x xxmessage id b62182 student cwru edu x xxdate tue , 6 apr 93 12 50 55 gmt article apr 6 12 05 34 1993 pion rutgers edu gregory nelson , pion rutgers edu writes oh , screen seems wierd way power 've seen mentioned others , must feature anyway , , 's fast great machine great price ! well , saw posts everyone talking new 14 display mine kinda like would old 13 , since new one lacks button , assume anyone knows 'd appreciate info , n't worry
cs unc edu \( gregory welch \) subject techworks say \? organization university north carolina chapel hill lines 30 distribution world nntp posting host sirius cs unc edu well , although may uncommon occurrence \( \) bad experience techworks past summer upgraded \( increased \) memory powerbook ci called place order pb ram , told sales person would give 50 rebate would return original ram \( also techworks ram \) followed instructions returning old ram , expecting see credit visa within weeks well , months went , credit many calls \( almost none ever returned \) finally found someone told never received old chips explained procedure followed return , person replied mean sent us mail \? \( , per original sales person 's instructions \) told loss us mail shipments uncommon \( come \) sent stuff via fedex , etc reasoned done exactly told , would budge , people spoke absolutely help sent letters , copies original receipts , attempted trace package us mail , made many phone calls techworks , avail \( would n't give disgusted \) sales support people , , nothing could make right finally \( total disgust \) wrote letter credit card company , asking investigate problem three weeks later , credit miraculously appeared statement \( recent memory \) disgusted service received company fairness , way knowing trying rip , went great lengths prove really happened oh well , c'est la vie never buy another product \( get chest ! \)
rrn po cwru edu \( robert r novitskey \) subject cyclone tempest \? \? \? \? \? article usenet reply rrn po cwru edu \( robert r novitskey \) organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 10 nntp posting host thor ins cwru edu could someone please post info systems thanks bob robert novitskey pursuing women similar banging one 's head rrn po cwru edu wall less opportunity reward
uicvm uic edu subject lciii midi article uicvm 93096 organization university illinois chicago , academic computer center lines 11 anyone experience using lciii midi \? get along ok \? heard iivx suitable midi , heard e say anything definitive lciii midi \? experience , wh midi interface used \? anyone used finale software setting \? please e mail summarize thanks , jerry bartlett peoria , uicvm cc uic edu
kerr ux1 cso uiuc edu \( stan kerr \) subject sigma designs double \? \? article ux1 organization university illinois urbana lines 29 po cwru edu \( joseph \) writes looking information sigma designs double board figure hardware compression board works autodoubler , sure also much would one cost \? 've board year , work diskdoubler , autodoubler , due licensing problem technologies , owners board 's compression technology \( i'm writing memory 've lost reference please correct i'm wrong \) using board , 've problems file icons lost , 's hard say whether 's board 's fault something else however , decompress troubled file recompress without board , icon usually reappears mentioned licensing problem , freeware expansion utility dd expand decompress board compressed file unless board installed since product , seems unlikely holes autodoubler diskdoubler related board fixed sad , makes reluctant buy 's product since 're \( hey , 's competition \) stan kerr computing communications services office , u illinois urbana phone 217 333 email uiuc edu
sunnyt coding bchs uh edu subject price drop c650 within 2 months \? article menudo td reply ln63sdm sdcc4 ucsd edu organization university houston lines 19 nntp posting host protein bchs uh edu article yuma acns colostate edu ns111310 lance colostate edu \( nathaniel sammons \) writes going getting c650 soon , want apple come cyclones tempest month price drop system want negotiated good deal supplier c650 8 80 would like jump , , , n't want price drop btw , deal c650 8 80 mouse anyone know better deal \? thanks , low end configuration \? , 68lc040 \( fpu \) , opposed configurations 68rc040 \( fpu \) sure know getting buy ! ! ! 68rc040 around 350 400 right , intend upgrade 68lc040 sunny
qman casbah acns nwu edu \( charlie kuehmann \) subject lciii vga monitor adapters article ironman qman organization northwestern university lines 17 nntp posting host ironman ms nwu edu i'm real tough time finding proper adapters use vga monitor \( ibm sold w many ps 2 's exact \) mac lc iii vendors called say internal video work true vga monitor work ibm compatible multisync like sony 's nec monitors thought vga capability lciii attractive allowed use inexpensive vga monitors confused vendors speed \? anyone used lciii non multisync vga monitor get adapter \( please specific w vendor cat \) \? would prefer get apple monitor lciii 's \( 's see finder inside ibm bezel \) money save monitors lciii 's afford ps 2 's get rid ! charles kuehmann northwestern university steel research group qman casbah acns nwu edu
gsnow clark edu \( gary snow \) subject warning ! n't break powerbook screen article clark 1993apr6 organization clark college , vancouver , wa usa lines 20 article outpost sf bay org peirce outpost sf bay org \( michael peirce \) writes surprised \? n't protective almost always end hurting u long run subsidies way build strong economy n't wall tough outside world , rather compete global market place \( n't come crying world n't always want play house rules \) tell japanese , local market neatly protected japanese government one tough nut crack fact current way break , japanese company partner venture gary gary snow uunet ! clark ! gsnow gsnow clark edu
subject need advice \( tech works etc \) choo ecs umass edu lines 19 greetings ! ! planning upgrade mac iisi \( 1 \) present \( 2 \) add math coprocessor technology works , austin \( texas \) comes quite highly recommended mac magazines anyone could share anything tech works \( good bad experiences \) give advice mail order companies may consider reply would much appreciated thanks advance sincerely peter choo choo sigma ecs umass edu
phil csc liv ac uk \( phil \) subject duo dock problems organization computer science , liverpool university lines 23 nntp posting host ama csc liv ac uk anyone problems duo dock ejecting duo properly \? first got , duo would come dock couple inches ejected , pull rest way nowadays \( 've system 4 months \) , duo n't come despite fact mechanism makes appropriate noises , grab hold pull simple fix , return apple dealer , languish weeks make colour display , vram , floppy scsi etc \( btw , 's duo locked dock n't want slide \) phil , computer science dept , janet phil uk ac liv csc liverpool university , internet phil csc liv ac uk po box 147 liverpool 3bx head heels love got cramp \( uk \) 051 794
peter hansen pgmoffc bnr ca subject help 2 internal hds mac ii \? x xxdate tue , 6 apr 93 11 16 56 gmt nntp posting host organization bnr x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d17 lines 54 article 1993apr1 siemens co kurt , kurt siemens co writes possible install 2nd 3 1 2 100 mb hd mac ii 5 1 4 40 mb hd \? us 50 pin cable 3 connectors internal motherboard scsi connector 2 scsi hd connectors first hd terminated second whats power supply connect 3 1 2 amp connector supply 3 1 2 hd \? possible connect another internal hard disk macintosh find space put iisi came quantum 80 meg drive ran space problems , slapped another 40 meg quantum sitting shelf first , concerned space since drives quantum quarter height drives , finally decided logical place stacked one upon fine , fit \( problem heat yet , drives running together two months next problem connecting drive spare internal hard disk power cable , half troubles extra cable get one square motherboard connector two hard disk power connectors n't spare cable , buy wires connectors found good electronics store 10 would suggest properly soldering connections reduce possibility shorts bad connections next , need ribbon cable connection , spare hard disk ribbon cable , wanted careful case n't word purchase crimp 50 pin cable connector gave another male connector middle spare cable part cost 10 , easily attached good wood vice theory behind using crimp connector n't work , original cable damaged , go back original setup done , could n't bothered check dev notes power consumption plugged works like charm day mac ii , everything work careful id 's drive , ensure terminating resistors drives intact try without terminating resistors seemed logical splitting scsi chain , signal terminated ends let know questions peter hansen bell northern research pgmoffc bnr ca
peter hansen pgmoffc bnr ca subject help 2 internal hds mac ii \? x xxdate tue , 6 apr 93 11 17 54 gmt nntp posting host organization bnr x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d17 lines 54 article 1993apr1 siemens co kurt , kurt siemens co writes possible install 2nd 3 1 2 100 mb hd mac ii 5 1 4 40 mb hd \? us 50 pin cable 3 connectors internal motherboard scsi connector 2 scsi hd connectors first hd terminated second whats power supply connect 3 1 2 amp connector supply 3 1 2 hd \? possible connect another internal hard disk macintosh find space put iisi came quantum 80 meg drive ran space problems , slapped another 40 meg quantum sitting shelf first , concerned space since drives quantum quarter height drives , finally decided logical place stacked one upon fine , fit \( problem heat yet , drives running together two months next problem connecting drive spare internal hard disk power cable , half troubles extra cable get one square motherboard connector two hard disk power connectors n't spare cable , buy wires connectors found good electronics store 10 would suggest properly soldering connections reduce possibility shorts bad connections next , need ribbon cable connection , spare hard disk ribbon cable , wanted careful case n't word purchase crimp 50 pin cable connector gave another male connector middle spare cable part cost 10 , easily attached good wood vice theory behind using crimp connector n't work , original cable damaged , go back original setup done , could n't bothered check dev notes power consumption plugged works like charm day mac ii , everything work careful id 's drive , ensure terminating resistors drives intact try without terminating resistors seemed logical splitting scsi chain , signal terminated ends let know questions peter hansen bell northern research pgmoffc bnr ca
watarts uwaterloo ca \( richard crispin \) subject quantum hard disk organization university waterloo lines 24 recently aquired quantum harddisk 50 meg 5 25 mechanism scsi questions problems first seems extra connector socket back ca n't figure address set jumpers bottom n't think ideas \? second , would nice get hardware manual drive lot jumpers n't know third , got drive format took get things work fine troublesome seems ok main problem reset macplus drive disappears shut mac back agian drive comes fine ideas please reply one email addresses thanks richard crispin department psychology email watarts uwaterloo ca university waterloo psych watserv1 uwaterloo ca waterloo , ontario phone \( 519 \) 888 885 1211 ext canada fax \( 519 \) 746
zia castle ed ac uk \( zia \) subject help powerbook 160 caere typist plus graphics hand scanner article castle organization edinburgh university lines 43 nntp posting host cs utexas edu edited forwarded csm announce moderator please respond originator email also needs , besides cable works , phone number applelink address caere smile pat back \) please , beg know anything caere typist plus graphics hand scanner , please read solve problem truely grateful rest life ! problem caere typist plus graphics hand scanner connect powerbook 160 cable scanner fit scsi port powerbook got cable assembled adapt original cable fit scsi port , however , turned computer scsi mode treated hard disk asked engineer london assembled new cable idiot , sheer laziness taken 14 weeks yet solve problem aware caere co us solution know cable solve problem please help know solution forever grateful e mail address zia uk ac ed castle wrong side road \) \) us , 's zia castle ed ac uk thanking advance , zia
orion oac uci edu \( wayne chen \) subject disappointed la cie article news organization uc irvine lines 12 nntp posting host slip nts uci edu x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d17 x xxmessage id slip nts uci edu x xxdate tue , 6 apr 93 05 35 36 gmt article 1993apr5 umiami ir miami edu , f2ehg786 umiami ir miami edu writes seems reconditioned hardware sold reconditioned discounted price , replacements new hardware gone bad \( still covered 90 day warranty \) new well , sounds like need kind lemon law hardware industry sound unfair someone paid price new drive reconditioned one guys think \?
gsnow clark edu \( gary snow \) subject c650 fan noisy ! solutions \? article clark 1993apr6 organization clark college , vancouver , wa usa lines 18 article rintintin colorado edu rintintin colorado edu \( thomas g \) writes , 650 , \? n't seem broken n't making grinding noises anything , 's loud ! much louder fan iici sold anybody else problem \? solution \? good replacement fan 's lot quieter moves air \? easy way sound cooling air \? \( hah ! \) ca n't even hear fan 650 gee wonder working yup , checked , exhausting air back fine gary gary snow uunet ! clark ! gsnow gsnow clark edu
leonardo src honeywell com \( john \) subject price drop c650 within 2 months \? article leonardo organization honeywell src lines 36 comp sys mac hardware posted date tue , 6 apr 93 16 32 51 cdt received date tue , 6 apr 93 16 32 52 cdt nathaniel sammons writes going getting c650 soon , want apple come cyclones tempest month price drop system want negotiated good deal supplier c650 8 80 would like jump , , , n't want price drop btw , deal c650 8 80 mouse anyone know better deal \? n't know say best price c650 going drop year week 's macweek reports apple probably planning drop august guess may come sooner apple decides change price structure upon release multimedia units summer price looks pretty good 50 mine last month would rather waited one new machines sommer \( like cyclone \) resale value iici would squat thus , financing forced purchase i'm happy machine wo n't feel betrayed apple cuts price less 1000 next week \( heh \) line c650 want , buy wait come price break might well wait powerpcs come another price break units follow may save money 've lost lot time could using computer face , apple 's prices going continuous state flux least n't going try raising \( grin \) john leonardo src honeywell com
peterco eff org \( peter cohen \) subject comparative scsi performance originator peterco eff org nntp posting host eff org organization electronic frontier foundation x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 12 kurt \( jarthur claremont edu \) wrote could someone direct information scsi performance mac \? \( max throughput , etc \) max centris quadra 3 3 mb sec max iici iifx equivalent 1 4 mb sec max slower machines slower peter cohen , n't reflect employer 's opinions peterco eff org heck ! employer n't even know i'm !
generous nova sti nasa gov \( curtis generous \) subject apple tape backup 40sc system 7 x keywords backup , tape , organization nasa sti lines 12 need get apple 40sc tape backup unit working sys 7 0 x , drivers software access device anyone know tools access device \? appreciate info comments curtis curtis c generous generous sti nasa gov \( 703 \) 685 1140 nasa sti , code , washington , dc
mcs drexel edu \( mathew scott smith \) subject axion serial port switcher good bad \? organization drexel university lines 26 hi ! i'm looking buying serial port switcher , mac two serial ports , appletalk , modem , printer , midi , sound digitizer \( 2 ! 5 , unfortunately \) specifically , i'm looking axion electronic switcher , seems fairly cheap \( 128 \) anyone know anything \? 've heard things still use 2 serial ports time , prevents physically swapping cables although 've also heard programs use comm toolbox may able use many serial ports want anyone know true axion \? finally , axion stinks , 're using something else think good , 'd interested hearing products would like spend 140 , possible please reply mail i'm regular reader newsgroup 's interest , post summary replies thanks lot ! scott smith \( mcs drexel edu \)
rrn po cwru edu \( robert r novitskey \) subject help buy mac ! organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 16 reply rrn po cwru edu \( robert r novitskey \) nntp posting host thor ins cwru edu hey everybody want buy mac want get good price n't \? , could anyone found really good deal centris 650 send price n't want know , unless mail order cleveland , ohio also , buy wait power pc thanks bob reply via post e mail rrn po cwru edu robert novitskey pursuing women similar banging one 's head rrn po cwru edu wall less opportunity reward
kelleyb austin ibm com \( kelley boylan \) subject iisi 33mhz success story originator kelleyb kelleyb austin ibm com distribution usa reply kelleyb austin ibm com organization ibm austin , powerpc lines 17 howdy folks back september october '92 posted instructions upgrade iisi 25mhz little people reported 've done procedure , put 66mhz oscillator instead 50 \( thus running cpu 33mhz instead 25 \) tried 'll darned n't work anyone tried anyone know procedure work se 30 \? mine 's old , slow , need either death power kelley thomas kelley boylan , powerpc , ibm austin , \( 512 \) 838 1869 kelleyb austin ibm com
uvic ca \( neil somerset \) subject adb woes nntp posting host uvic ca organization university victoria , victoria , bc , canada lines 28 article 1993apr3 afterlife ncsc mil afterlife ncsc mil \( mark \) writes greetings , oh , wise netters \( oops 's oracle sorry \) anyhow , basic question cannot answer heck buy adb cable \? \? mine trackball shot n't able find replacement anywhere unless i'm looking wrong mail order catalogs anyone ideas \? \( places prices make \? \) mark afterlife ncsc mil able pick adb cable computer wiring store 'd give address alberta computer cable calgary , i'm victoria \( b c , canada \) b n't think address calgary would help much basically however phoned , charged approx 15 custom made adb extension cable mouse hope helps dave ra uvic ca software inc
drlovemd jhunix hcf jhu edu \( steve liu \) subject cd300 300i organization homewood academic computing , johns hopkins university , baltimore , md , usa lines 89 distribution world nntp posting host jhunix hcf jhu edu article srvr1 engin umich edu chyang leghorn engin umich edu \( chung hsiung yang \) writes article bauer 134 60 68 23 , bauer informatik uni ulm de \( christian bauer \) writes article andrew cmu edu , donpaul c stephens deathbird cmu edu wrote difference \? want double spin cd rom drive may looking nec apple , best \? nec toshiba sony \( apple \) nearly deliver speed apples prices low \( compared ram simms \) buy think driver revisions easier get driver kits apple every manufacturer christian bauer bauer informatik uni ulm de thought nec toshiba cd rom mechanism average access time less 200 ms sony apple cd rom drive access time 300 ms models chung yang cd technology drive toshiba mechanism , supposedly fast best access data transfer rate sec multisession photo cd compatible available 599 , cd technology one , comes two mail coupons two free cds i'm sure cd 's good , since 've drive little less month cd 's shipped home address california instead maryland cd technology drive separate power supply separated drive , supposedly gives longer life , keeps cleaner fan attract dust toshiba brand drive also available , think cd technology better , since get mechanism , slightly lower price two free cds apple 300 drive , sony mechanism , around access time think , data transfer rate sec know slowest three mentioned widely available , except apple catalog , bad price 599 also multi session photo cd compatible think external model comes 7 free cds , pretty good nec drive longest access time data transfer rate sec available many vendors around 600 dollars , including n't multi photo cd compatible , hear current version shipping owners older drives get upgrade come free cd 's unless buy bundle three cd rom drives , think best choices would apple drive cd technology \( toshiba \) drive apple drive 's compatibility apple products cd technology \( toshiba \) 's speed performance btw , models drives apple 300 300i \( internal \) cd technology cd \( toshiba brand name model i'm sure , also something like 3401 \) nec cdr 74 i'm happy drive compatibility problems whatsoever wrong , correct , pretty sure , even think i'm also , might notice last name president cd technology happens southern california , however , relative know guy liu common chinese name , especially southern california , enormous chinese community besides , one doctors california three steve liu 's patients another steve liu comes school lives next dorm show liu common steve \) steve liu wish better sig drlovemd jhunix hcf jhu edu suggestions welcome ! drlovemd jhuvms hcf jhu edu
b91926 fnclub fnal gov \( david sachs \) subject apple tape backup 40sc system 7 x organization fermi national accelerator laboratory , batavia il lines 15 distribution usa nntp posting host fnclub fnal gov keywords backup , tape , article generous nova , generous nova sti nasa gov \( curtis generous \) writes need get apple 40sc tape backup unit working sys 7 0 x , drivers software access device anyone know tools access device \? appreciate info comments curtis curtis c generous generous sti nasa gov \( 703 \) 685 1140 nasa sti , code , washington , dc retrospect \( \) works nicely combination buy mail order vendors
zia castle ed ac uk \( zia \) subject help please hand scanner problem organization edinburgh university lines 29 know anything caere typist plus graphics hand scanner , please read save life problem caere typist plus graphics hand scanner connect powerbook 160 cable scanner fit scsi port computer managed assembled adapted cord computer however , placed computer scsi mode , acted external hard disk whenever switched computer 've asked engineer london assemble new cable 's taken 14 weeks yet find solution , sheer laziness know cable exists solve problem know solution please let know cable need get hold one e mail address zia uk ac ed castle truely grateful help thanking advance , zia
wdl loral com \( david c \) subject cannot move data fast enough ! \? summary disk buffer network card keywords nubus , scsi , disk , throughput organization videos lines 43 want achieve overall throughput rate around 5 megabytes sec large data transfers \( around 5 mb \) quadra 950 nubus network card pump data mac memory 8 5 mb \( using block mode transfers \) high speed disk array \( asynchronous pb calls \) achieve 6 8 mb let 's say transfers go disk buffer network card enough first transfer data disk buffer , transfer data buffer card \( 6 8 mb 8 5 mb result overall 3 8 mb slow ! \) tried following scheme n megabyte transfer , step 1 load 1st mb disk buffer step 2 asynch send 1st mb card , load 2nd mb disk buffer step 3 asynch send 2nd mb card , load 3rd mb disk buffer step n asynch send n 1 mb card , load nth mb disk buffer step n 1 send nth mb card even though code apparently execute card transfer , card use mac cpu , \( using buffer , tho' \) steps 2 n take long two transfers executed one another improvement rate \? mac ram dual port \? \( nubus card disk driver access data time \) problem two devices , card disk driver , use bus mac ram \? anything \? david david get tired thinking things wdl loral com n't want , barfly
cleveland freenet edu \( travis \) subject new duo dock processor 's organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 22 reply cleveland freenet edu \( travis \) nntp posting host thor ins cwru edu well folks , thought answer struck flat face would apple release duo dock processor \? 's people apple notebook 68040 processor apple ca n't deliver right 040 much power , far much heat , large notebook one get around without designing new chipset \? use existing powerbook technology best advantage duo dock gives apple unique ability give users 040 power semi portable fashion 040 dock , 've got quadra power desk road , 33mhz 68030 able handle needs okay , best solution , answer win situation \) , mean one able use powerbook 's processor parallel dock 's processor \? okay , 're getting really hypothetical travis digest 1 source information , contributing editor , news reviews software digest industry macintosh community reply cleveland freenet edu information digest
jmilhoan magnus acs ohio state edu \( jt \) subject 2 powerbook questions article magnus 1993apr6 organization ohio state university lines 13 nntp posting host bottom magnus acs ohio state edu 1 , actually , powerbook 640 x 400 pixel display , regardless 9 10 , still keep 72 dpi resolution \? \( assume n't , n't mean imply dimensions \) 2 info price drops new models \( non duo \) coming \? thanks , jt
gsnow clark edu \( gary snow \) subject question 1024 x 768 quadra 800 article clark 1993apr6 organization clark college , vancouver , wa usa lines 14 article trauma com trauma com \( n died \) writes anyone information 1024 x 768 resolution q800 using video \? even possible \? suspect n't although 'd certainly like know sure course possible , get 1024x768 centris 650 need correctly wired video cable gary gary snow uunet ! clark ! gsnow gsnow clark edu
geoffb coos dartmouth edu \( thumper \) subject new apple ergo mouse reply geoffb dartmouth edu organization amos tuck school lines 16 disclaimer n't represent dartmouth dartmouth n't represent utkvx utk edu utkvx utk edu \( schizophrenia means never alone \) writes anyone know open apple ergo mouse \( adb mouse ii \) \? mine lives near cat \( true , really \) picks fur tell , looks like apple welded shut rotating plate around mouse ball counter clockwise open mouse clean n't obvious desktop bus mouse opens quite easily see done geoff geoffb dartmouth edu computing support consultant , tuck school business n't vote n't count
gsnow clark edu \( gary snow \) subject cheapest mike centris \? article clark 1993apr6 organization clark college , vancouver , wa usa lines 13 article rintintin colorado edu rintintin colorado edu \( thomas g \) writes bought centris 650 discovered , , apple gotten cheap include mike anymore , internal external get mic c650 get internal cd rom drive gary gary snow uunet ! clark ! gsnow gsnow clark edu
netcom com \( brian hall \) subject new duo dock processor 's article netcom organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 31 cleveland freenet edu \( travis \) writes would apple release duo dock processor \? 's people apple notebook 68040 processor apple ca n't deliver right 040 much power , far much heat , large notebook one get around without designing new chipset \? use existing powerbook technology best advantage duo dock gives apple unique ability give users 040 power semi portable fashion 040 dock , 've got quadra power desk road , 33mhz 68030 able handle needs okay , best solution , answer win situation \) , mean one able use powerbook 's processor parallel dock 's processor \? okay , 're getting really hypothetical would also great another reason docked , could serve ara server large internal hd , corporate email , etc pinch , would also two machines , instead 1 5 could couple thought rocketshare , let use '030 pb '040 dock , would mighty powerful dock brian hall netcom com mark space applelink america online disturb i'm mission
johnston udel edu \( bill johnston \) subject apple tape backup 40sc system 7 x keywords backup , tape , nntp posting host udel edu organization university delaware lines 22 article fnnews fnal gov b91926 fnclub fnal gov \( david sachs \) writes article generous nova , generous nova sti nasa gov \( curtis generous \) writes need get apple 40sc tape backup unit working sys 7 0 x , drivers software access device retrospect \( \) works nicely combination also use retrospect , noticed central point software 's mactools backup also supports apple tape drive 7 x apple tape drive quite slow , advantages retrospect relative simpler mactools backup less significant might case someone backing large server dat drive used apple tape drives going 100 , might make less economic sense pay extra 140 retrospect mactools cheaper includes worthwhile utilities retrospect nice , though , i'm probably going upgrade 2 0 bill johnston \( johnston udel edu \) 38 chambers street newark , de \( 302 \) 368 1949
lord andersen com \( bob lord \) subject duo dock problems organization andersen consulting cstar lines 37 distribution usa nntp posting host grant cstar andersen com compsci liverpool ac uk phil csc liv ac uk \( phil \) writes anyone problems duo dock ejecting duo properly \? first got , duo would come dock couple inches ejected , pull rest way nowadays \( 've system 4 months \) , duo n't come despite fact mechanism makes appropriate noises , grab hold pull simple fix , return apple dealer , languish weeks make colour display , vram , floppy scsi etc \( btw , 's duo locked dock n't want slide \) phil , computer science dept , janet phil uk ac liv csc liverpool university , internet phil csc liv ac uk po box 147 liverpool 3bx head heels love got cramp \( uk \) 051 794 also , anyone heard rumors new docks \( ones cpu \) better designed first batch \? love duo , installing cards dock much fun bob bob lord 100 south room 932 network manager chicago il , cstar group , andersen consulting 312 507 lord andersen com
matt magic bbs corp apple com distribution na organization macintosh awareness group canada subject internal scsi installation , \? lines 9 apple hd sc says unable locate suitable drive scsi 's wrong \? apples format hard drive apple sold need use third party like drive7
hk mlr forsythe stanford edu \( mark rogowsky \) subject cd300 300i organization stanford university lines 45 distribution usa nntp posting host morrow stanford edu article srvr1 engin umich edu , chyang leghorn engin umich edu \( chung hsiung yang \) writes article bauer 134 60 68 23 , bauer informatik uni ulm de \( christian bauer \) writes article andrew cmu edu , donpaul c stephens deathbird cmu edu wrote difference \? want double spin cd rom drive may looking nec apple , best \? nec toshiba sony \( apple \) nearly deliver speed apples prices low \( compared ram simms \) buy think driver revisions easier get driver kits apple every manufacturer christian bauer bauer informatik uni ulm de thought nec toshiba cd rom mechanism average access time less 200 ms sony apple cd rom drive access time 300 ms models chung yang toshiba access time , nec access time , right around sony apple access time , course , somewhat important , vital case cds data transfer rate drives double speed drives maximum data transfer rates 300k second good choice apple 's cheap included new macs agree christian 's comment drivers plus , apple 's bootable centris quadra 800 nice feature need install system software n't know nec toshiba bootable machines mark
hk mlr forsythe stanford edu \( mark rogowsky \) subject new apple ergo mouse organization stanford university lines 31 distribution usa nntp posting host morrow stanford edu article dartvax dartmouth edu , geoffb coos dartmouth edu \( thumper \) writes utkvx utk edu utkvx utk edu \( schizophrenia means never alone \) writes anyone know open apple ergo mouse \( adb mouse ii \) \? mine lives near cat \( true , really \) picks fur tell , looks like apple welded shut rotating plate around mouse ball counter clockwise open mouse clean n't obvious desktop bus mouse opens quite easily see done geoff geoffb dartmouth edu computing support consultant , tuck school business n't vote n't count think original poster meant opening mouse , releasing ball getting rollers found original adb mouse , sometimes two halves allowed easier cleaning original poster answer , 'll ask open new ergonomic mouse \? open , mean split two halves get guts n't obvious based 5 minute look spent one office yesterday visible screw heads mark
orion oac uci edu \( wayne chen \) subject disappointed la cie nntp posting host slip nts uci edu x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d17 organization uc irvine lines 6 x xxmessage id slip nts uci edu x xxdate tue , 6 apr 93 05 56 22 gmt article news service uci edu wayne chen , orion oac uci edu writes industry sound unfair someone oops , meant fair , unfair
old dominion university computing communications services kay alexander oduvm bitnet subject quadra 800 problem question lines 16 got quadra 800 8 230 've noticed ca n't change desktop color beautiful gray thought maybe reinstall os using install first , macintosh centris , quadra diskette system file diskette recent one hard disk easy install selects macintosh system software anyone know use customize use system software macintosh \? matter \? thanks advance suggestions kay alexander old dominion university bitnet oduvm internet oduvm cc odu edu
peirce outpost sf bay org \( michael peirce \) subject sales powerbook slowing reply peirce outpost sf bay org \( michael peirce \) organization peirce software lines 27 x mailer uaccess macintosh release 1 6v2 article martin \( comp sys mac hardware \) , martin \( jean francois martin \) writes first , april 1 joke dealer town told powerbook n't sell use sell guy told apple problem desktop mac expensive powerbook expensive comparison get dos side think \? feel thing \? curious sounds right high demand product little incentive cut prices demand fall bit , time start getting aggressive pricing waiting long really hurt business though \) powerbooks sold well , slowing apple needs come lower priced versions \( reason powerbook could spring 900 pb100 , rest lineup way pricey \) 'd bet 'll coming power versions michael peirce peirce outpost sf bay org peirce software suite 301 , 719 place san jose , california usa makers voice \( 408 \) 244 fax \( 408 \) 244 applelink peirce america online afc peirce
hurh fnal fnal gov \( patrick hurh \) subject cache card optimum memory settings \? organization fnal lines 25 distribution world nntp posting host fnal gov 's question may simple enough answer , stumped others external ram cache card already large cache set \( control panel \) simms \? ex mac iici 20 meg ram , external video card \( n't rob simm 's \) , default apple cache card \( believe 32k \? \) say cache set 2 meg , good 32k cache card \? could actually slow things dividing cache card simm 's \? still speed things providing area data normally passed directly simm ram cache \? i'm confused seems like cache cards low memory really good compared set yet , daystar numbers show around 30 performance boost operations chips cache card simply faster simm accesses \? please help , i'm trying find optimum memory settings iici system described ex patrick hurh fnal fnal gov
rhi hi \( eggert \) subject monitors video cards se 30 lines 24 nntp posting host rhi hi hello thinking buying external monitor se 30 wondering anyone netland advice mostly thinking 14 color monitor 8 bit card switch 640 480 something higher \( like 800 600 \) read old report card could , could use external monitor main screen \( menubar \) major draw back perhaps fixed \? cards \( like micron \) \? also monitor buy \? moment leaning towards sony 1304 , 1304s 1320 \( exactly difference \? \) good cheap monitors know \? n't monitor multisync support cards switch resolutions \? please send e mail 'll summarize would also greatly appreciate getting e mail addresses mail order sell monitors cards thanks advance eggert university iceland
po cwru edu \( john graham \) subject new apple ergo mouse article usenet organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 15 nntp posting host thor ins cwru edu believe order get innards new mouse , must remove label bottom says apple desktop bus mouse ii find two screws either side n't tried yet , ran fingernail accross label , two appeared , assume elusive screws question cheers , john john graham cleveland institute music po cwru edu brought letters j , , g , number 14
jmk13 po cwru edu \( joseph kasanic \) subject 14 monitors article usenet distribution world organization case school engineering lines 16 nntp posting host b63545 student cwru edu x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d20 x xxmessage id b63545 student cwru edu x xxdate tue , 6 apr 93 03 29 12 gmt article corona hsc usc edu daniel chen , corona hsc usc edu writes i'm interested getting 14 color monitor new lciii unfortunately , i'm really quite confused sony monitors could someone please compare sony 1320 , 1304 apple 14 \? thanks dan thought would mention sony longer manufactures cpd 1304 several manufacturing flaws new model 1430 , like apple 's new sony claims 14 inches i'm sure details defects , work schools bookstore tell nearly half returned kind defect another two cents worth
po cwru edu \( john graham \) subject 14 monitors article usenet organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 23 nntp posting host thor ins cwru edu joseph kasanic jmk13 po cwru edu writes thought would mention sony longer manufactures cpd 1304 several manufacturing flaws new model 1430 , like apple 's new sony claims 14 inches i'm sure details defects , work schools bookstore tell nearly half returned kind defect another i'm assuming referring 1304s , correct \? kind flaws reported \? 've using mine 6 7 months , n't noticed problems might develop later , get lucky snag good monitor \? curious , john john graham cleveland institute music po cwru edu brought letters j , , g , number 14
jmk13 po cwru edu \( joseph kasanic \) subject like apple color \? article usenet distribution world organization case school engineering lines 19 nntp posting host b63545 student cwru edu x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d20 x xxmessage id b63545 student cwru edu x xxdate tue , 6 apr 93 03 36 54 gmt article 1993apr5 midway uchicago edu johnc , jcav ellis uchicago edu writes 're set buy one office , use scanning color photographs optical character recognition 've played original grayscale pleased color model comparable quality \? also , brand ocr software would recommend \? 're leaning toward caere omnipage better ideas \? thanks work campus bookstore opportunity demo color one scanner found impressive well affordable \( educational discount course ! \) note also comes software sufficient needs
us oracle com \( forrest howard \) subject need advice \( tech works etc \) article oracle 1993apr6 organization oracle corp lines 34 nntp posting host us oracle com x disclaimer message written unauthenticated user oracle corporation opinions expressed user necessarily oracle gregory welch writes followed instructions returning old ram , expecting see credit visa within weeks well , months went , credit many calls \( almost none ever returned \) finally found someone told never received old chips explained procedure followed return , person replied mean sent us mail \? \( , per original sales person 's instructions \) told loss us mail shipments uncommon \( come \) sent stuff via fedex , etc also returned pb memory last summer credit , sales person warned use us mail \( although insure shipment \) , apparently techworks got minor grip techworks different price lists different people ordered duo memory , thinking got best price subsequently found apple offering developers memory less techworks charged , called complain , told said apple developer credited card 16 purchase price like techworks quality installation instructions \( include powerbook tools \) , ca purchases \( sales tax \) chip merchant seems bit less forrest howard oracle corporation 500 oracle parkway box redwood shores , ca 94065
ns111310 lance colostate edu \( nathaniel sammons \) subject 68lc040 vs 68rc040 centris 650 nntp posting host casco lance colostate edu organization colorado state u engineering college lines 28 would like know people 's opinions real world differences c650 without coprocessor n't use anything like , maple , etc n't use spreadsheets \( least sheets complicated anything \) , n't use 3d cad apps \( although used \) , use 3d renderers , extensive communications , run bbs , write software , write papers , etc btw , kicks , told local apple rep upgrading 68lc040 c650 well , apple built extra socket coprocessor chip way , plug coprocessor , works heartily laughed hung phone thanks , nate hate quotations message brought tell know nate sammons , number 42 ralph waldo emerson ns111310 longs lance colostate edu
ns111310 lance colostate edu \( nathaniel sammons \) subject 68lc040 vs 68rc040 centris 650 nntp posting host casco lance colostate edu organization colorado state u engineering college lines 4 also use photoshop edit photos , dtp work nate
quan xenon stanford edu \( tony quan \) subject new apple ergo mouse organization computer science department , stanford university lines 22 article dartvax dartmouth edu hades dartmouth edu writes utkvx utk edu \( schizophrenia means never alone \) writes anyone know open apple ergo mouse \( adb mouse ii \) \? mine lives near cat \( true , really \) picks fur tell , looks like apple welded shut must tried hard mine 2 seconds take look bottom , dial turns open much like older adb used 's bit harder turn first quite simple open nope i'm pretty sure person knows take ball think want take mouse apart old mouse four screws bottom could , 's obvious way take new one apart tony quan cs stanford edu
ux1 isu edu \( ralph \) subject iisi clock upgrade organization idaho state university , pocatello lines 47 hi , getting lot requests information thought would post interested parties \( sorry length \) increase speed 25mhz 33mhz clock must changed 40mhz 50mhz respectively done going static free work station putting aluminum foil work 1 open si lifting tabs back case 2 remove hard disk power scsi cables , spreading tabs , lifting drive 3 remove drive 4 remove power supply spreading tab front lifting supply straight 5 remove fan pressing ears together back , bottom side fan lifting straight 6 remove mother board spreading tabs left right side board sliding board forward lifting board \( connectors back board must removed first \) 7 40mhz clock \( one closest memory modules \) easy even skilled 8 get ic socket round pins remove four pins pushing bottom long nose pliers 9 put four pins holes clock solder 10 insert 50mhz clock 11 put large power transistor heat sink 's processor chip large chip right processor figure way hold heat sync 's place made simple clamp putting four inch screw hole board two chips mount screw using insulated washers screw cross member heat sync 's hold place n't use much pressure 12 put back together go disclaimer procedure used authorized anyone procedure i'm quite sure void bye , ralph \( 208 \) 236 idaho state university email ux1 isu edu
csa bu edu \( josh carroll \) subject optical organization computer science department , boston university , boston , , usa lines 13 originator csa 've got 5 25 mo drive ricoh ro mechanism new roms thing , new optical disk 512 bytes per sector cart thing refuses mount formatted carts drive work certified media 512k sector carts think cart uses kind incompatible low level format anyone know software allow formatted drive \? new dip setting mechanism \? 've tried every combination drivers custom formatting programs find luck ideas \? csa bu edu \( good idea , please e mail address possible , ca n't check newsgroup constantly , thanks \)
monty roscom think com \( monty solomon \) subject powerbook 170 4 40 expires mon , 26 apr 1993 00 43 13 gmt reply monty solomon roscom ! monty think com organization proponent lines 8 powerbook 170 4 40 fax data modem available thru citibank 's catalog 1995 00 19 95 h \( 500 \) modem 2400 bps data , 9600 bps fax \( send \) monty solomon po box framingham , monty roscom think com
veronica informatik uni dortmund de \( olaf \) subject problems rose organization cs department , dortmund university , germany lines 28 distribution world reply veronica informatik uni dortmund de nntp posting host veronica informatik uni dortmund de anyone work rose card \? problem certain crashes card disappears system , lets crash mac okay , n't use card quite like one , simulate errors 68000 every instruction specified registers masked , eg simulate stuck 1 error certain bits normally , crash instance rose notices crash , sets flag stops working reading mentioned flag mac notice card crash works fine almost crashes , said , sometimes card n't set flag disappears system documentation rose tell us anything behavior crashing , moment trying understand analyzing assembler code , 's frustrating lengthy , anyone help \? please reply via email , n't read group department computer science iv university dortmund , germany e mail veronica informatik uni dortmund de beginning god created adam ahem ! atoms atoms hydrogen
triton unm edu \( larry p anthropology \) subject floptical question organization university new mexico , albuquerque lines 11 nntp posting host triton unm edu article slip ots utexas edu ccwf cc utexas edu \( billy lee myers , jr \) writes last time looked , floptical disk n't cheap , \( 30 per floptical disk 1 40 per megabyte , 60 per 1 36 per megabyte \) flopticals available since beginning year 25 per floptical \( 1 20 per megabyte \) , seen advertised macweek 20 \( 1 00 per megabyte \) someone tight budget , fact minimal dollar increment storage less 25 versus 60 sometimes matters
andrew org subject centris 610 video problem help organization memorial sloan kettering cancer center lines 25 distribution world nntp posting host ski org x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d20 x xxmessage id ski org x xxdate thu , 15 apr 93 16 05 44 gmt recently obtained centris 610 developed unusual video problem model 610 8 mb 230 hd , 512k vram , cards monitor apple 16 computer set 256 colors certain operations done , particularly vertical scrolling window , horizontal white lines appear monitor \( generally always spare open windows \) lines accummulate operation continued window moved involved area screen moved away line disappear area screen problem observed monitor configured 16 colors 14 inch apple monitor 256 colors used suspect bad video ram chip cannot certain problem apparent since day 1 gotten worse wondering anyone seen anything like , , fix please also respond org thank help andrew molecular biology program memorial sloan kettering cancer center
vincent cad gatech edu \( vincent fox \) subject noisy se \? organization deep thirteen , institute lines 14 distribution usa nntp posting host cae cad gatech edu 's old se 's got older style fans remind house ventilator cylindrical drum instead rotor usually see anyway , se makes loud buzzing noise due vibration somewheres remove screws loosen front back , assume fan housing goofy thing touching back case vibrating anyway , suggestions get replacement fans stealth guy \? experiences welcome everything gone planned , everything would perfect batf spokesperson cnn 3 2 93 , regarding failed raid attempt tx
wkuvx1 bitnet subject tempest cyclone info needed organization western kentucky university , bowling green , ky lines 8 anyone information upcoming new computers \( cyclone tempest \) , need info anything would greatly appreciated thanks , shawn wkuvx1 bitnet
kitchel manta com \( sidney w kitchel \) subject rumours new duos ! ! ! ! ! article manta kitchel distribution comp sys mac hardware , comp sys mac comm organization data parallel systems , inc lines 27 nntp posting host manta com ultb isc rit edu \( j e king \) writes since subject chip power consumption , heard \( reliable source \) dec alpha chip uses 1 2 power intel 's pentium chip , still pentium 's butt makes wonder intel ever made chip begin ! would n't like powerbook alpha running 300 mips \? cool idea ! ! sorry wrong would extremely hot idea least current available run 200 mhz produce quite bit heat fact much need special mounting extra large heat sinks also apple looks pretty commited powerpc route instead deal dec sid sidney w kitchel kitchel cs indiana edu , kitchel com data parallel systems , inc e drive \( 812 \) 334 8100 bloomington , indiana , usa fax \( 812 \) 334
rich launchpad unc edu \( rich \) subject ps 2 appletalk card question nntp posting host lambada oit unc edu organization university north carolina extended bulletin board service lines 17 chance buy used ps 2 appletalk card create network home machines however , guy card tells 's db 9 db 15 \( ca n't remember \) back card , rather 8 pin \( 4 pin \) mini din expect sounds like ethernet card transciever , like quadras \? would reasonable price expect pay one cards , keeping mind 's micro channel architecture , means take best guess double email replies would appreciated , rrr ideas com thanks opinions expressed necessarily university north carolina chapel hill , campus office information technology , experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu 152 2 22 80
cs scarolina edu \( ronald w pritchett \) subject removable storage organization usc department computer science distribution comp lines 16 quadra 700 170mb hd , need lot sound sampling research would best type removable media storing audio clips \? ron 'they say i'm lazy , takes time life 's good far ! ' joe walsh ron pritchett internet ash cs scarolina edu fidonet ron pritchett 1 376 74 0
ulf kirsch comm se \( ulf \) subject mouse organization communicator ab distribution comp lines 12 bottom drawer found old mouse db 9 \( 9 pin \) plug assume belonged deceased plus something could simple modification turn proper adb mouse \? reply mail , preferably thanks ! ulf , communicator , sweden ulf comm se
chico acc iit edu \( users \) subject 1024 x 768 video q800 adaptor pinouts reply gene 's message wed , 14 apr 1993 18 06 15 gmt organization illinois institute technology , chicago x news reader vms news 1 24 lines 17 make sence would 4fg work 3fgx work monitor without accucolor digital controls works fine 1024x768 svga 's deal anyway get svga 14 68 279 probably would work 600 nec wo n't \? 3fgx maximum horizontal scan rate , driving 60 get 1024 x 768 mac way beyond tolerance 4fg , going 60 5 6 minimally guaranteed figure doubt monitor would sync mac 1024 x 768 like things , get pay 's deal john p would n't posted n't sure
groucho mrc uidaho edu \( mark beale \) subject quadra acceleration article moscow distribution na organization microelectronics research center lines 7 nntp posting host groucho mrc uidaho edu quadra 700 , 800 clock acceleration anyone heard anything like quadra 950 \? please reply e mail , n't get news often thanks ! ! mark beale \( \) mrc uidaho edu
jeffh ludwig cc uoregon edu \( jeff hite \) subject mac plus constantly rebooting ! article organization university oregon network services lines 25 nntp posting host ludwig cc uoregon edu article atl hp com russ atl hp com \( russ \) writes tae shin \( husc8 harvard edu \) wrote basically , mac pluses constantly rebooting , reboot button pushed sometimes mac able fully boot display desktop , matter time reboots times , frequency high several times minute wonder mac little reset interupt switches installed plastic devices push switches inside mac switches bad need replacing problem usually low 5 vdc power supply , adjustment supply voltage still unstable low culprit probably bad rectifier jeff hite computing center u oregon jeffh ludwig cc uoregon edu
gel ulaval ca \( eric \) subject stylewriter ii question nntp posting host gel ulaval ca organization universite lines 3 read article swii one thing puzzles article says swii serial device mean 'll unplug modem time want print something \? \? \?
cs scarolina edu \( ronald w pritchett \) subject cd rom quadra organization usc department computer science distribution comp lines 17 would problems hooking toshiba 3401 external cd rom drive 700 \? ron 'hey jack ripper , wo n't come hook power lines love ' jethro ron pritchett internet ash cs scarolina edu fidonet ron pritchett 1 376 74 0
yalevm ycc yale edu \( daniel cohen \) subject interesting adb behaviour c650 nntp posting host yalevm ycc yale edu organization yale university lines 20 article 1993apr15 waikato ac nz ldo waikato ac nz \( lawrence d'oliveiro , waikato university \) writes 've noticed interesting phenomenon centris 650 unplug keyboard mouse plug without turning power , mouse suddenly switches half normal movement speed check mouse control panel , 's change setting 's still full speed , way like restarting machine restores normal mouse speed way , happens newer style mouse came centris , older style mouse iifx work thus n't think anything resolution setting mouse 's definitely quirk adb interface \( either hardware software \) centris noticed exact phenomenon occurs lciii perhaps quirk new machines \? dan
\( iisi owner \) subject iisi clock upgrades organization lines 4 new reports iisi clock upgrade 25 mhz , 33 mhz \? failures \? iisi owner slow mac soldering iron
especkma reed edu \( erik speckman \) subject rom accelerated video \? article reed 1993apr15 organization reed college , portland , lines 11 macuser article new centris quadra machines mentioned c650 q800 , c610 , rom accelerated video n't seem make much difference benchmark test \? n't recall seeing dale adams post erik speckman p could someone tell dale 's posts video memory archived somewhere
jbailey world std com \( jim bailey \) subject quadra 900 950 organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 26 hades coos dartmouth edu \( brian v hughes \) writes jbailey world std com \( jim bailey \) writes b clark nwu edu \( brian clark \) writes 900 popular misspelling quadra 900 , 25 mhz 040 processor 950 33 mhz 040 , local buses motherboard run faster video different also 950 run 13 believe 16 monitor 16 bit color without vram upgrade actually , could put much vram q900 want still wo n't able get 16 bit color , monitor 's part board video q950 , however , use 16 bit video monitors 19 2mb vram hades yes , upgrade vram 900 get 24 bit color really n't care point box 950 video capability size monitors 900 24 bit 13 16 , n't support 19 , 8 bit 21 monitors
jbailey world std com \( jim bailey \) subject quadra 900 950 differences organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 43 jim jagubox gsfc nasa gov \( jim jagielski \) writes jbailey world std com \( jim bailey \) writes cec2 wustl edu \( robert david \) writes also believe 950 fixed bug cpu screwed floating point calculations robert washington university st louis cec2 wustl edu 's law 's always one bug someone definite information first 've heard cpu get fixed hardware upgrade \? n't make much sense let 's see differences 950 900 basically 1 runs 33mhz , 25mhz 2 25mhz bus , 16mhz 3 upgraded graphics controller 4 3 results q950 requiring 80ns vram , 100ns 5 rom fixes rounding errors floating point calculations 15th digit patch roms latest os version n't see problem b ethernet problems 16 buffers , doubt , person refering 5a , hardly screwing though \) jim jagielski 's gonna stiff say , jim jagubox gsfc nasa gov 'hey ! lama ! something , nasa gsfc , code 734 4 know , effort ! ' greenbelt , md 20771
jbailey world std com \( jim bailey \) subject put centris 650 internal bay \? organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 24 hades coos dartmouth edu \( brian v hughes \) writes tzs stein2 u washington edu \( tim smith \) writes jbailey world std com \( jim bailey \) writes yes , get internal mixing analog cd audio outputs mac generated audio mac motherboard also sample cd audio using sound control panel clicking options button next microphone icon click options button \? 've never seen latest word disconnect microphone cable motherboard button supposed un dim hades sorry , assumed various new machines internal cd rom bay worked quadra 900 obviously n't use three inputs changing radio button sound cp quadra 900 , microphone , external , cd rom always leave microphone plugged \( even though never use \)
dudek mcrcim mcgill edu \( gregory dudek \) subject iici q700 upgrade \? nntp posting host mcrcim mcgill edu organization mcgill research centre intelligent machines lines 28 article austin ibm com login austin ibm com writes ago posted note asking specs quadra 700 , opinions q700 upgrade iici vs accelerator card far 've noticed please let know think possible upgrade paths cost , efficiency , pros cons , etc thanks ! complete q700 best obtained dealer recent copy macworld macuser memory suggests relevant comparison factors vis vis iici follows 25 mhz 68040 16 mhz data path \( n't recall sure , 's slower q 950 style machines sure \) card board audio 4 mb ram motherboard 4 simm slots 2 nubus slots flexible build video ci uses vram comparison , iici accelerator wo n't give audio ethernet video options 68040 accelerator , cpu performance comparable think ends costing greg dudek
jbailey world std com \( jim bailey \) subject sampling cd audio \( put centris 650 \) organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 28 ldo waikato ac nz \( lawrence d'oliveiro , waikato university \) writes article netcom com , bskendig netcom com \( brian kendig \) writes jbailey world std com \( jim bailey \) writes yes , get internal mixing analog cd audio outputs mac generated audio mac motherboard also sample cd audio using sound control panel clicking options button next microphone icon 's \? iivx internal cd n't cd audio icon ca n't find option centris 650 either hand , n't see need one try recording sound built microphone audio cd playing drive , get cd audio mixed microphone sound guess unplug microphone , 'll get cd audio \( admittedly sampled 8 bits conversion \) sorry misinformation made bad assumption new machines behaving like quadra 900 , see previous post sampling cd audio though , tried \? found aliasing really bad like needed filter something much worse expected installed cd 300 quadra maybe missed something everything else works great though
akhiani ricks enet dec com \( akhiani \) subject recommendations removable storage media wanted lines 25 nntp posting host ricks reply akhiani ricks enet dec com \( akhiani \) organization digital equipment corporation x newsreader 6 18 2 article 1993apr14 kth se write used bernoulli 's , recommend bernoulli 's \( although popular \) much slower , prone cartridge friends \? buy friends , buy 128 mb optical stop bought bernoulli drive last year comparing lots diffrent storage solutions , optical drives slow , slow compared 13 access bernoulli since needed online storage \( rather backup e disk \) , bernoulli drive use adobe quicktime movies alot ran storage real fast imho , best buy currently bernoulli per cartridge akhiani turning ideas reality digital equipment corporation alpha , new beginning 77 reed rd hudson , rights reserved copyright \( c \) 1993 email akhiani ricks enet dec com words mine , employer
subject lcd overhead projectors jan camhpp12 mdcbbs com \( jan vandenbrande \) distribution na organization e \( division eds \) , cypress ca nntp posting host 134 244 49 156 lines 13 looking one color lcd screens place overhead projector control presentation mac recommend particular brand \? price talking \? thanks , jan vandenbrande jan ug eds com \( new address \) jan usc edu \( school address , forwards \) uucp uunet , uupsi ! ug ! jan
sci cuny edu \( \) subject ad conversion organization city college new york science computing facility lines 33 working data acquisition analysis program collect data insect sensory organs another alternative use sound input port really make due non existent dynamic range 8 bit converter , probably dubious linearity monotonicity , perhaps ac coupled well \? would depend requirements poster 's data , purposes 1 256 resolution \( without calibration curve \) otherwise possibilities would 1 \) get digital serial output connect serial port mac , collect data communications program 2 \) buy chip analog devices , burr brown , etc , connect parallel serial converter , use serial port acquisition \( nah much soldering trouble shooting \) 3 \) get board national instruments , data translation , omega , finest solution , possibly costly original poster signal large , use voltage divider \? two resistors , cost cheap george sci cuny edu 212 650
ac dal ca subject powerbook 140 180 batteries organization dalhousie university , halifax , nova scotia , canada lines 15 quick query powerbook gurus tom , post alternative powerbook battery options mentioned exist 3 versions powerbook 140 180 batteries 2 5 amp hour one \( \) , 2 8 amp hour one , \( b \) 2 9 amp hour one \( c \) anyone know determine battery \? looked battery obvious exterior indication contacted tom gleaned information macuser n't know either anyone know answer \? thanks ! christopher ac dal ca btw , reply via email would grateful n't often read newsgroup post summary answers
klein mathematik uni bielefeld de \( john r klein \) subject happens completely flatten pb 's battery \? nntp posting host mathematik uni bielefeld de organization universitaet bielefeld , rechenzentrum lines 32 article raistlin cdc com swiers chaos cdc com \( aaron swiers \) writes netcom com \( gabriel \) writes otago ac nz \( nigel \) writes running powerbook 's battery completely flat detrimental side effects \( pb going \) ask , two things think 1 although nicad \( 145 , 145 , 160 , , 170 , 180 \) batteries completely discharged month , batteries \( 100 \) n't ever completely discharged \( well , maybe okay \) common mis conception dealing ni cad batteries good idea completely discharge ni cad cell periodically good idea completely discharge ni cad battery difference cell one cell \( nicad puts 1 2 volts \) like rechargeable aaa , aa , c , battery defined one cell \( 9 volt , 7 2 nicad equivalent \) due differences individual cells battery , complete discharge actually harm nicad battery help overcome memory effect common problem time individual cell develop internal shorts , weaken cells connected , thus reducing lifespan battery pack etc okay , naive question one discharge cell without discharging entire battery \?
jacob berkeley edu \( \) subject memory upgrades organization ucb space sciences lab lines 29 distribution world nntp posting host berkeley edu excuse frequent question , checked several faqs could n't really find anything iisi standard 5 meg memory want \( need \) add additional memory i'm budget really n't need 10 meg max , best \( performance wise \) economical way \? someone told use simms amount memory , 4 1 meg , 4 2 meg , etc wanted buy 1 4 meg use rest already \? manual n't helpful thanks \( respond via e mail n't worth bandwidth \) common human laws interests would n't exactly call emotions validity happy dogma , makes vast feel better cosmos large getting laid hp r carter jacob sunspot berkeley edu
bme ri ccf org \( chandra \) subject trying find reliable power center macs article bme 1993apr15 4004 organization biomedical engineering applied , ccf lines 18 hi , trying find reliable power center , basically surge protector sits monitor individual control outlet people opinion none work well ones could locate catalogue lite 's command console \( 79 \) proxima power director \( 89 95 \) kensington masterpiece plus \( 109 95 \) anyone used one \? could please send feedback \? thanks
world std com \( eugene e rosen \) subject centris 610 tms 120 drive article world organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 14 recently purchased centris 610 difficulty getting computer recognize hard disk drive \( external \) using disk tms \( \) jasmine 's software , neither one show drive drive device connected port cant find manual tms pro 120 seem remember terminated something else \( \) allow 610 recognize external disk drive \? thanks advance information eugene e rosen genie 22 riverside road compuserve , sandy hook , ct 1213 aol gene rosen
pitt edu \( mr someone \) subject modem question article blue organization pre ee lines 2 art
jaguar csc wsu edu subject educational pricing article jaguar 1993apr15 1 organization washington state university lines 27 article cs dal ca , hayes ug cs dal ca \( kevin b hayes \) writes find retail within price keyboard educational prices would wary retail outlets selling cheap educational prices ! went retailer , actually mail order \( cda computers \) , price better campus computer store found later tried get repair done apple registered repair center cpu resale serial number removed replaced non standard number \( probably cda computers \) consequently , apple repair man could warrenty repairs ended warrenty cda apple warrenty boy , pi ed ! moral story , caveat emptor however , go reliable , trustworthy mail order firm \( exist maybe someone could enlighten us experiences \) , probably get better price local educational outlet simply mail order state require sales tax yet though much longer remains seen addition sales tax cpu purchase probably wipe educational discount caveat emptor , mail order companies include sales tax purchases even state , check ! richard richard j jaguar csc wsu edu washington state university \( \) \) voice \( 509 \) 335 fax \( 509 \) 335 err human , really screw things takes computer !
sml eniac seas upenn edu \( steven \) subject accelerator se keywords accelerator , compatibility organization university pennsylvania lines 13 nntp posting host eniac seas upenn edu interested peoples' experience accelerators se accelerator best route improve performace se , consider upgrading se 30 motherboard \? obviously , buying new mac would ideal , alas , enough money accelerator motherboard e mail reply preferred thanks steve dept materials science engineering u penn
staff tc umn edu \( \) subject get cheapest price \? nntp posting host staff tc umn edu organization university minnesota lines 9 hi anyone know get cheapest price teleport gold fax modem global village \? answer highly appreciated thanks advance regards , thian
organization american university university computing center br4416a auvm american edu subject fix trackball lines 11 longer moves horizontal direction called nearest authorized apple service person told probably needed replacing would cost 150 ! ouch ! anyone recommend less expensive way fix problem \? one strange symptom problem take ball socket shine light hole make cursor move horizontally moving wheel finger , works fine way wo n't work turn light suggestions comments \? ben roy poor college student internet br4416a american edu
sammons mailer acns fsu edu \( david sammons \) subject monitor turning organization lines 29 article 164 mailer acns fsu edu , mailer acns fsu edu \( gregory cohen \) wrote article 1993apr13 rhrk uni kl de staudt physik uni kl de \( staudt ag linder \) writes staudt physik uni kl de \( staudt ag linder \) subject monitor turning date tue , 13 apr 1993 14 21 29 gmt leland stanford edu \( k c ku \) writes strange problem apple 13 monitor hopefully someone shed light would using computer 5 minutes screen would go blank someone switch monitor screen went , would able turn monitor even turn power back let monitor sit night usually turns , although doesnt stay long anybody similar experience problem \? fuse monitor prevents turning \? try turn monitor , seems monitor tries turn prevented certain apple 13 rgb monitors problem high voltage apple knows problem replacing cap cost falls bad batch got supplier local repair shop know repair extension
lreiter jade tufts edu \( lowell b reiter \) subject hp laserjet iii , printing \( non appletalk \) duo lines 25 organization tufts university medford , one print non appletalk printer using dmm laserwriter stuff i'm using serial saving tried sending 0 says ca laserwriter driver , appletalk specified i'm using one cable use null modem adapter \? help lowell lowell reiter need vacation ! ! ! tufts university internet account lreiter jade tufts edu
usc edu \( ingemar \) subject dead mouse \? organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 11 distribution usa nntp posting host usc edu mouse died determined , senses click , stuck depressed mode tragedy prompts following questions 1 easy find could solder place old switch \? 2 old mice \( max , mac 512ke \) , used adapter \?
narlochn kirk msoe edu subject general questions software hardware distribution usa organization milwaukee school engineering , milwaukee , wi usa lines 18 introduced macintosh systems questions e mail prefered 1 \) system 7 \? want hard details commercials like ads magazines 2 \) anyone used microsoft office 3 0 \? would like suggestions , descriptions microsoft actual name \) word 5 1 b \) excel 4 0 c \) power point \) mail 3 1 3 \) major differences mac wordperfect word \? thanks lot !
ado bbn com \( owen \) subject performa 450 internal modem \? lines 10 distribution world nntp posting host bbn com hear performa 450 really lciii internal modem modem part obtained installed lciii \? would nice actually powerbook internal modem , might much hope
ldo waikato ac nz \( lawrence d'oliveiro , waikato university \) subject interesting adb behaviour c650 organization university waikato , hamilton , new zealand lines 20 article 1993apr15 waikato ac nz , said know plugging unplugging adb devices power supported , hit problems multiple devices addresses , 've couple e mail responses people seem believe sort thing unsupported , downright dangerous heard warnings anybody apple sure , asked couple technicians , one servicing macs years danger damaging logic boards plugging unplugging adb devices power scsi , yes , adb , lawrence d'oliveiro fone 64 7 856 2889 computer services dept fax 64 7 838 4066 university waikato electric mail ldo waikato ac nz hamilton , new zealand 37 47' 26 , 175 19' 7 e , gmt 12 00
jim jagubox gsfc nasa gov \( jim jagielski \) subject quadra scsi problems \? \? \? keywords quadra scsi aps lines 13 reply jim jagubox gsfc nasa gov \( jim jagielski \) organization nasa goddard space flight center jim jagubox gsfc nasa gov \( jim jagielski \) writes heck \? true \? aps info , since get n't help actually , 's , 's meant \) jim jagielski 's gonna stiff say , jim jagubox gsfc nasa gov 'hey ! lama ! something , nasa gsfc , code 734 4 know , effort ! ' greenbelt , md 20771
mmiller garnet msen com \( marvin miller \) subject lc iii nubus capable \? organization msen , inc ann arbor , mi \( account info 1 313 998 \) lines 21 nntp posting host garnet msen com x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 forgive asked goes friend recently purchased lc iii wants know demon called nubus adapter pds slot \? compusa says n't carry mean lc iii incapable carrying nubus board \? much , marvin mmiller garnet msen com deal hearing editor chief co publisher people , understand deaf terrorism 22 year 11 17 marvin monthly newspaper \( e mail complimentary quote apply copy today ! \) hearing people , though
peterco eff org \( peter cohen \) subject asante en sc pb adaptor wo n't work duo 230 originator peterco eff org nntp posting host eff org organization electronic frontier foundation x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 23 bill \( bill panix com \) wrote guess changes opinion thought would warn prospective customers en sc pb fwiw , work focus enhancements , lot people sell sc sc \( scsi ethernet interface \) disgruntled en sc users also need know anyone successful comparable product dayna focus really n't want use nubus slot sigh wish better news focus sc currently incompatible duos may change future apple register compatible cards 100 compatible , though send questions focus applelink apple com peter cohen 'd rather
thomas kephart kephart snowhite eeap cwru edu subject interesting adb behaviour c650 organization case school engineering lines 29 distribution world nntp posting host b62182 student cwru edu x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d20 x xxmessage id b62182 student cwru edu x xxdate thu , 15 apr 93 17 46 47 gmt article yalevm ycc yale edu daniel cohen , yalevm ycc yale edu writes 've noticed interesting phenomenon centris 650 unplug keyboard mouse plug without turning power , mouse suddenly switches half normal movement speed check mouse control panel , 's change setting 's still full speed , way like restarting machine restores normal mouse speed way , happens newer style mouse came centris , older style mouse iifx work thus n't think anything resolution setting mouse 's definitely quirk adb interface \( either hardware software \) centris noticed exact phenomenon occurs lciii perhaps quirk new machines \? sorry , mine works fine \( c650 \) 2 cents worth
jartsu hut fi \( jartsu \) subject best syquest iivi iivx c650 \? nntp posting host lk hp 7 hut fi reply jartsu vipunen hut fi organization helsinki university technology , finland lines 11 could someone tell make find get best iivi iivx c650 internal syquest drive \? one available make one original cd rom one scratch \? every suggestion welcome jartsu
tau ac il \( isaac \) subject spigot lc iii organization tel aviv university computation center lines 16 friend mine problems running spigot lc lc iii configuration spigot lc lc iii , system 7 1 video spigot extension 1 0 would get negative experience setup thanks , amir
web 4f berkeley edu \( james wang \) subject rom accelerated video \? organization university california , berkeley lines 13 nntp posting host web 4f berkeley edu article 1993apr15 reed edu especkma reed edu \( erik speckman \) writes macuser article new centris quadra machines mentioned c650 q800 , c610 , rom accelerated video \? n't recall seeing dale adams post course dale 's post , words macuser used rom accelerated video means quickdraw commands rewritten \( inside rom \) take advantage 68040 addressing modes commands fills slightly faster since new instructions fetch 2 bytes time versus one
hew guvax acc georgetown edu subject monitor shut 13 hi res organization georgetown university lines 11 summary monitor 13 er 's reply unh edu distribution world defect 13 hi res monitors , bring dealer replace flyback free , think heard problem work today fixing free r r
news news claremont edu \( news system \) subject dead mouse \? organization harvey mudd college , claremont ca 91711 lines 1
michael robert andrew cmu edu subject 800x600 video iici \? organization freshman , electrical computer engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 6 nntp posting host po4 andrew cmu edu need able run nec 3fgx 600 mode iici \? done right video card \? , video card \? michael
scotts ftcollinsco ncr com \( scott sherman \) subject computer engr vs computer science distribution usa organization ncr microelectronics products division \( company \) lines 20 article 1993apr10 340 macadam com , mike macadam com writes freshman college ca n't decide whether major computer engineering computer science advice suggestions appreciated thanks , mike professor mine said difference computer engineer computer scientist 5000 meaning engineer makes 5000 cs seriously though main difference cs people write programs people use , e database , graphics , word processors , etc , engineer writes machines control systems , e computer car , flight control system , computer controled devices , etc words cs writes software cse writes firmware generalizations part difference p 5000 joke scott
marantz corp sun com \( kelly chang \) subject mac ii scsi pmmu socket question organization sun microsystems , inc lines 17 distribution world reply marantz corp sun com nntp posting host marantz corp sun com posting friend usenet access please contact \( \) directly , thank 1 mac ii supposed socket pmmu chip could anyone let know socket motherboard obtained pmmu chip \( 16 mhz \) surplus store , would like install onto mac ii \( circa 1987 \) cannot see socket tried install 2 could anyone send pinouts mac ii scsi db 25 interface \? thank contact david chan , attmail com
jeffh ludwig cc uoregon edu \( jeff hite \) subject monitor shut 13 hi res organization university oregon network services lines 23 nntp posting host ludwig cc uoregon edu article 1993apr15 guvax acc georgetown edu hew guvax acc georgetown edu writes defect 13 hi res monitors , bring dealer replace flyback free , think heard problem work today fixing free r r service notice 13 hi res monitors expired 3 23 93 date apple reimburse service providers fix \( replacement hi voltage capacitor \) folks putting without getting service provider missed freebie force year got free 3 23 , got deal jeff hite computing center u oregon jeffh ludwig cc uoregon edu
narlochn kirk msoe edu subject general questions distribution usa organization milwaukee school engineering , milwaukee , wi usa lines 8 two questions 1 \) would required create macintosh pc network including laser printers , line printers , etc \? 2 \) would bare minimum create network primary purpose networking laser printer approx 3 mac 's \?
feldman urbana mcd mot com \( mike feldman \) subject ok set 54 lbs top centris 610 \? \? \? keywords centris nntp posting host charm urbana mcd mot com organization motorola computer group , urbana design center lines 32 article news cso uiuc edu uxa cso uiuc edu \( david l \) writes recently purchased centris 610 mirror technologies 19 inch mono monitor i'm wondering ok set monitor top cpu monitor weighs 54 lbs 've called apple person spoke sure going find call back couple days week ago anybody knows , please respond via email n't always time read group thanks david uiuc edu yea , thanks lots good information newsgroup , prepared lots details \( even shipping time got c610 8 230 cd 5 weeks \) guess biggest disappointment lack detail written specs documentation case load spec example setup section says apple 14 16 monitors go top , 21 big ones ca n't could n't publish maximum load \? figure 's hope using partition button hard disk setup utility \( dare try see happens \? \) , maybe divide wealth among family members bit getting information section manual suggested trying avenues calling apple , n't mention net mike feldman , motorola computer group , \( 217 \) 384 , fax \( 217 \) 384 1101 east university avenue pager il \( 800 \) 302 , \( 217 \) 351 urbana , il 61801 \( \) ! ! feldman feldman urbana mcd mot com
wpi wpi edu \( lazer \) subject 68040 specs organization worcester polytechnic institute lines 18 distribution world nntp posting host wpi wpi edu 'd appreciate greatly someone could e mail following \( know one , 's fine \) 1 \) specs 68040 \( esp compares pentium \) 2 \) specs 68060 estimated cost , release date , etc i'm interested speeds , systems run \( windows nt , risc , whatever \) , costs , bus info , register info technical info hoping 68040 win yet another battle intel people \) thanks info give thanks lazer \( patrick \) warning ! star trek fan , macintosh user , internet wpi wpi edu co sysop l blues bbs ! lazer uucp call l blues bbs \( 207 777 3465 777 \) macintosh user macintosh ms dos files free usenet !
ggw wolves durham nc us \( gregory g woodbury \) subject q900 fp errors \? \( quadra 900 950 differences reply ggw wolves durham nc us organization wolves den unix lines 16 x md4 signature cec2 wustl edu \( robert david \) writes also believe 950 fixed bug cpu screwed floating point calculations anyone details \? sort fp errors q900 sensitive \? \( q900 strange problems fp intensive program , getting lot \( segment loader \) errors 0 4 system 7 0 1 \) gregory g woodbury wolves den unix , durham nc standard disclaimers uucp ! wolves ! ggw duke ! wolves ! ggw use maps ! domain ggw wolves durham nc us ggw wolves duke cs duke edu site affiliated duke university \( idiots ! \)
mirsky hal gnu ai mit edu \( david joshua mirsky \) subject desktop rebuild datadesk keyboard \? organization dis lines 30 nntp posting host hal ai mit edu article cs uiuc edu tthiel cs uiuc edu \( terry thiel \) writes got new datadesk 101e keyboard go new centris 610 problem desktop rebuilds hold command option keys restart nothing happens dip switches set right way command option keys seem work anything else i'm running 7 1 btw anyone know problem \? terry terry , hi recently bought lciii datadesk 101e ca n't remember trying rebuild desktop , however give strange problem held shift startup disable extensions , nothing happened tried another keyboard , using adb connector cable worked keyboard shift key datadesk keyboard worked well otherwise checked fine try disabling extensions tell works annoyed datadesk sent keyboard mail inspection repair replacement technician phone said 10 14 day turn around time meaning receive inspected repaired keyboard time well , keyboard 3 weeks still gotten little info 's annoying cost 12 send keyboard \( refund money \) service lines toll calls tell similar experience david mirsky gnu ai mit edu
mirsky hal gnu ai mit edu \( david joshua mirsky \) subject desktop rebuild datadesk keyboard \? organization dis lines 32 nntp posting host hal ai mit edu article cs uiuc edu tthiel cs uiuc edu \( terry thiel \) writes got new datadesk 101e keyboard go new centris 610 problem desktop rebuilds hold command option keys restart nothing happens dip switches set right way command option keys seem work anything else i'm running 7 1 btw anyone know problem \? terry message news program may goofed first time terry , recently bought lciii datadesk 101e n't remember trying rebuild desktop , however give strange problem held shift startup disable extensions , nothing happened tried another keyboard , using adb connector cable worked keyboard shift key datadesk keyboard worked well otherwise checked fine try disabling extensions tell works annoyed datadesk sent keyboard mail inspection repair replacement technician phone said 10 14 day turn around time meaning receive inspected repaired keyboard time well , keyboard 3 weeks still gotten little info 's annoying cost 12 send keyboard technical support line toll free tell similar experience david mirsky mirsky gnu ai mit edu
especkma reed edu \( erik speckman \) subject educational pricing article reed 1993apr15 6655 organization reed college , portland , oregon lines 36 article 1993apr15 1 jaguar csc wsu edu jaguar csc wsu edu writes article cs dal ca , hayes ug cs dal ca \( kevin b hayes \) writes find retail within price keyboard educational prices would wary retail outlets selling cheap educational prices ! went retailer , actually mail order \( cda computers \) , price better campus computer store found later tried get repair done apple registered repair center cpu resale serial number removed replaced non standard number \( probably cda computers \) consequently , apple repair man could warrenty repairs ended warrenty cda apple warrenty boy , pi ed ! moral story , caveat emptor apple sales mail order result mail order companies obtain machines grey market market supplied machines authorised resellers machines sell come state affairs either accidentally get better price apple either case often obscure serial protect identity result warranty void may save sales tax pay shipping also point mail order companies cannot get lower prices high volume authorised dealers unless buy dealer cost result way sell cheaper cutting costs trimming margins unfortunatly dont seem well lowest prices quoted mailorder beat lowest prices available authorised local dealers even away educational prices erik speckman
robert everett andrew cmu edu subject fix trackball organization freshman , electrical computer engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 5 nntp posting host po2 andrew cmu edu reply 93105 auvm american edu little blue roller trackball interior probably rubbing support , push pin longer touches similar problem rob
robert everett andrew cmu edu subject jump starting mac ii organization freshman , electrical computer engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 3 distribution na nntp posting host po5 andrew cmu edu reply 1993apr14 mailbox als com remember clamp ground engine block first \? rob
robert everett andrew cmu edu subject fix trackball organization freshman , electrical computer engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 7 nntp posting host po4 andrew cmu edu reply 93105 auvm american edu course , want check honesty , take knowing 's wrong , ask tell \) course 'll probably know right way , charge 20 service fee \) rob
mirsky hal gnu ai mit edu \( david joshua mirsky \) subject lciii powerpc \? organization dis lines 9 distribution world nntp posting host hal ai mit edu hi lciii recently heard interesting rumor heard lciii built slot powerpc chip true \? heard slot pds slot true \? thanks david mirsky mirsky gnu ai mit edu
earl fife fife calvin edu subject printer , elite x xxdate thu , 15 apr 93 01 02 42 gmt nntp posting host 153 106 4 42 organization calvin college x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d20 lines 42 article nova glen , nova sti nasa gov writes i'm market post script compatible laser writer needs pretty modest 300 dpi , 4 pages minute would fine budget also pretty modest , inexpensive would also good working single mac , would probably good investment future mind 1 \) anyone comments quality value gcc elite printer \? recently purchased gcc elite really like needs much describe addition , wanted get one could access via appletalk , eliminated new line inexpensive printers apple print quality good excellent based font 're using paper use i'm still experimenting different papers , medium grade laser printer paper seems work fine printing envelopes , , letter head , single feed jobs easy adjustable , automatic centering , guide top sheet feeder paper properly \( n't feed sheet sheet feeder , \) \( affiliation gcc , satisfied customer \) earl fife department mathematics fife calvin edu calvin college \( 616 \) 957 grand rapids , mi
earl fife fife calvin edu subject daystar x xxdate thu , 15 apr 93 01 21 14 gmt nntp posting host 153 106 4 42 organization calvin college x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d20 lines 30 article news udel edu bill johnston , johnston udel edu writes i'm going buy daystar 68040 25 mhz se 30 since many mails problems board , questions board work 7 1 ux 3 0 \? anybody know problems kind software \? well , n't seen reports problems turbo '040 , knowledge , daystar released version board works anything iisi iici , finished tweaking testing use ux may happen ux 3 0 2 upgrade released \( guess \) 'd recommend waiting buying 50 mhz '030 board upgrade later ux compatibility assured turbo '040 interface cards ii , iix , se 30 , iicx , etc probably available sooner , ux compatibility requirement , probably best patient let someone else pioneer \) added waiting daystar se 30 , '030 power cache , '040 accelerator plug cpu socket , leaving pds slot free video card ethernet card daystar 's upgrade path , 's lose situation earl fife department mathematics fife calvin edu calvin college \( 616 \) 957 grand rapids , mi
subject 68lc040 vs 68rc040 centris 650 bruce actrix gen nz \( bruce \) lines 16 zack smith writes eua ericsson se \( per \) writes hm , maybe i'm missing something , centris 650 '040 fpu least ones shipped europe indeed 4 80 model \( shipped \) definitely fpu one know , 's missing anything 're right models 650 ship usa without fpu ethernet per also right , repeat , centris 650 's sold new zealand , assume , europe fpu ethernet know bought 650 4 80 fpu ethernet
guykuo carson u washington edu \( guy kuo \) subject iisi clock upgrades organization university washington lines 16 nntp posting host carson u washington edu 've completed successful upgrade si 27 5 mhz i'm waiting delivery 62 mhz clock final speed trial definitely needed heatsink cpu quite hot touch higher speeds glued 90 cent radio shack sink made call reports failures last week reports arrived locally , seattle reported cpu damage due user slipping iron putting board exactly problem due cpu running fast think would nice poll report top speeds system configurations including pds nubus cards used 'd happy coordinate report results guy kuo guykuo u washington edu
vax oxford ac uk subject ad conversion organization oxford university vax lines 36 b clark nwu edu \( brian clark \) writes article 1993apr13 vax oxford ac uk , vax oxford ac uk wrote working data acquisition analysis program collect data insect sensory organs \( stuff deleted \) another alternative use sound input port really make due non existent dynamic range 8 bit converter , probably dubious linearity monotonicity , perhaps ac coupled well \? clearly depends type questions asking many cases fine critical information neuron firing frequency \( maximum 100 action potentials per seconds \) , amplitude signal details signal shape resolution 0 4 get 8 bit convertor sufficient ac coupling problem either , since many cases interested dc level pre amplifier ac coupled also critical point lowest frequency pass cutoff point high , action potentials slightly distorted even normally matter since occurrence spike important however , want know exactly expect start battling toolbox get going yet clue start looking technical specifications peter vax oxford ac uk
jmilhoan magnus acs ohio state edu \( jt \) subject stylewriter ii question nntp posting host top magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 10 article gel ulaval ca \( eric \) writes read article swii one thing puzzles article says swii serial device mean 'll unplug modem time want print something \? \? \? plug printer printer port , modem modem port \) jt
altheimm nextnet csus edu \( murray altheim \) subject fix trackball organization california state university sacramento lines 53 article 93105 auvm american edu br4416a auvm american edu writes longer moves horizontal direction called nearest authorized apple service person told probably needed replacing would cost 150 ! ouch ! anyone recommend less expensive way fix problem \? one strange symptom problem take ball socket shine light hole make cursor move horizontally moving wheel finger , works fine way wo n't work turn light suggestions comments \? ben roy poor college student internet br4416a american edu ben , since 're obviously adept enough understand trackball works , thing short repairing think thorough cleaning parts , checking proper placement little blue rollers since n't fixed position stainless steel pins , might try sliding slightly different position powerbook 100 , slide almost completely contact trackball fact , one notes sumex fixing trackball advocates sliding roller edge contacts ball , center cylindrical area 've done pb100 , seem improve feel , needs adjusted time time popped open one office 's , n't much latitude movement , one could still adjust roller slightly might help would suspect likely culprit slippery blue roller take , clean mild solution , isopropyl alcohol also , sure ball grease free drop ball minus retaining ring , roll ball see actually causing axle spin still n't solve , maybe new one order \( could electrical connection , case replacement would necessary experience mice trackballs dirt normal problem , electrical malfunction hope helps , murray murray altheim ils ont de , d'un , instructional consultant la d'un , la face csu , sacramento comme un rouge altheimm csus edu un , ou pres eau qui
brucet extro ucc su oz au \( bruce \) subject duo 230 crashes aftersleep \( looks like apple bug ! \) nntp posting host extro ucc su oz au organization sydney university computing service , sydney , nsw , australia lines 47 lreiter jade tufts edu \( lowell b reiter \) writes duo 230 close lid open press key screen pattern make menubar top , although words bar \? lowell lowell reiter need vacation ! ! ! tufts university internet account lreiter jade tufts edu problem post hello duo owners \( apple technical people \) new duo 230 appears problem waking sleep running battery power woken \( usually second time \) sleeping , wake fails screen appears corrupted image broken horizontal lines control recovered control command reset key back machine problem occurs even system stock standard \( extensions , virtual memory , fully charged new battery , system 7 1 etc \) problem machine plugged ac 've checked battery properly seated \( appears fine \) 's going \? anyone else problem \? software hardware \? duo 230 bit time , try repeatedly sleeping waking machine battery power let know see behaviour \( let apple know ! \) many thanks anyone clear one bruce bruce sydney australia brucet extro ucc su oz au complex problems straight forward , easy understand wrong answers
ravi konchigeri mongoose leland stanford edu subject lciii problems x xxmessage id kimball pc 316 stanford edu x xxdate thu , 15 apr 93 03 12 01 gmt organization stanford university x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d17 lines 18 finally got computer fixed 'd like sum hard drive companies original 160 meg drive bad \( bad sector something \) ibm new one quantum lciii supposed shipped ibms \? quality difference \? apparently ! \) second , hard drive position 've put lciii side new 160 hd problems 've even switched back forth horizontal vertical problems far i'm concerned n't believe hd position important drives 160 meg , computer n't know cd rom , though like everything else life , right lane ends half mile ravi konchigeri mongoose leland stanford edu
josip eng umd edu \( josip loncaric \) subject duo 230 crashes aftersleep \( looks like apple bug ! \) organization project glue , university maryland , college park lines 7 nntp posting host orbit src umd edu type problem , one point apple rep told duo 's system enabler file version 1 0 1 fixes kind sleep related problem may want investigate josip loncaric
distribution world kris fourd com organization 4th dimension bbs subject stylewriter ii question lines 13 read article swii one thing puzzles article says swii serial device mean 'll unplug modem time want print something \? \? \? printer port mac also serial interface imagewriter ii kris system fourd com phone 617 494 0565 cute quote computer means never say 're sorry
john chung dartmouth edu \( john chung \) subject pb 's organization dartmouth college , hanover , nh lines 10 x posted internews 1 0b14 dartmouth edu hi , i'm market internal color video adaptor pb 145 wondering anyone used adaptor made mirror , tell feel speed compatability \? might also interested boards etc , board please e mail opinion thanks advance john
davisson stein u washington edu \( gordon davisson \) subject interesting adb behaviour c650 organization university washington , seattle lines 34 nntp posting host stein u washington edu article 1993apr16 waikato ac nz ldo waikato ac nz \( lawrence d'oliveiro , waikato university \) writes article 1993apr15 waikato ac nz , said know plugging unplugging adb devices power supported , hit problems multiple devices addresses , 've couple e mail responses people seem believe sort thing unsupported , downright dangerous heard warnings anybody apple sure , asked couple technicians , one servicing macs years danger damaging logic boards plugging unplugging adb devices power ! 've servicing macs years , 've repair number motherboards damaged way 's rare , happen mind , n't mean n't parts blow \( adb power fuse rf filter \) n't expensive , someone around component level repair , may worth risk \( especially 're around seattle , 'cause might get pay fix \) \) hand , repair option apple standard logic board swap \( major \) , probably play safe scsi , yes , adb , scsi yes , adb yes , floppies yes cause trouble gordon davisson davisson stein u washington edu computing \( 206 \) 632 university way ne , suite 311 , seattle wa
mv com \( \) subject new duo dock process lines 15 seth fail see advantage whatsoever kind set seth dumb idea n't buy one copy freddie 1 2 5 evaluated origin leo technology \( 603 \) 432 432 \( hst v32 \) \( 1 132 189 \)
franks ntu ac sg \( frank \) subject powerbook 170 freezes 18 seconds help ! nntp posting host ntu ac sg organization home franks organization distribution comp lines 20 days ago , powerbook starts freeze 18 seconds inactivity stays alive long program actively running long mouse moved anyone experience similar problems \? known fixes \? please reply email ca n't read newsgroup normally regards , mike fisher \( ntu ac sg \) frank franks ntu ac sg senior research fellow institute manufacturing technology \( \) nanyang technological university \( ntu \) nanyang avenue singapore tel 65 799 fax 65 791
organization penn state university psuvm psu edu subject daystar turbo 040 opinions \? lines 6 i'm thinking upgrading 030 50mhz 040 anyone experience accelerator , think \? problems , speedometer results \? , much faster 50mhz \? basically , 'd appreciate hearing product please respond via email , 'll summarize 's big response thanks advance , andrew
russotto eng umd edu \( matthew russotto \) subject interesting adb behaviour c650 organization project glue , university maryland , college park lines 22 nntp posting host tea eng umd edu article shelley u washington edu davisson stein u washington edu \( gordon davisson \) writes mind , n't mean n't parts blow \( adb power fuse rf filter \) n't expensive , someone around component level repair , may worth risk \( especially 're around seattle , 'cause might get pay fix \) \) hand , repair option apple standard logic board swap \( major \) , probably play safe scsi yes , adb yes , floppies yes cause trouble otoh , us get lucky 've unplugged scsi adb quite often , never blown anything blew adb shorting cable , though matthew russotto russotto eng umd edu russotto wam umd edu news readers expect disclaimer say police searches seizures make use force \( responsible bodily harm resulting following advice \)
haase lanl gov \( peter haase \) subject seeking fax network access organization los alamos national laboratory lines 9 seeking recommendations vendors fax would mainly used outgoing fax 's mac 's net ability fax platforms would plus ethernet interface would localtalk would suffice anyone provide info \? thanks advance , peter peter haase internet haase lanl gov network manager los alamos national laboratory
mori volga mfd cs fujitsu co jp \( mori \) subject want use deskjet system7 organization fujitsu ltd , kawasaki , japan lines 15 distribution comp nntp posting host ceres mfd cs fujitsu co jp used hp deskjet orange micros grappler ls 0 5 update system 6 0 5 system7 kanji talk 7 1 , print deskjet grappler ls old \? use deskjet system7 \? please tell use deskjet system7 thank japan mori volga mfd cs fujitsu co jp
erik cheshire oxy edu \( erik adams \) subject help ! ! macintosh lines screen ! organization occidental college , los angeles , ca 90041 usa distribution comp lines 20 okay , n't use much , would like keep working correctly , least long apple continues make system software run , slowly \) problem screen tilted far back , vertical lines appear screen every 10 pixels , seem affected somewhat opening windows pulling menus looks semi technical person like loose connection screen rest computer open suggestions involve buying new computer , taking one shop would also like buy one larry 's books like larry , i'm sure feel strongly enough computer buy service manual related note monitor connector connect \? erik
mizzou1 missouri edu \( cho wong \) subject performa plus monitor nntp posting host mizzou1 missouri edu organization university missouri lines 3 would like know performa plus monitor compatible apple color display , vga help appreciate
adamsj gtewd mtv gtegsc com subject rack mount , 650 prices organization gte govt systems , electronics def div lines 16 's good one anyone know product allows rack mount \( maybe 650 blow money \) \? \? \? application music , would like able haul around \( would probably plan get mo drive something n't depend internal fixed hard drive e , may pretty rough internal hd \) i'm san francisco bay area , matters also , anyone info 650 's midi \? , would anyone care email price paid 650 \? 's price list faq , never mind curious difference best retailers local university pricing thanks , jeff adams adams mtv gtegsc com
drlovemd jhuvms hcf jhu edu \( steve liu \) subject current rom version shipping syquest drives \? organization johns hopkins university hcf lines 4 distribution world nntp posting host jhuvms hcf jhu edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 title says need know 44 , 88 , rom versions steve \)
lreiter jade tufts edu \( lowell b reiter \) subject duo 230 crashes aftersleep \( looks like apple bug ! \) lines 23 organization tufts university medford , crashes use 1 0 1 enabler use appletalk lowell lowell reiter need vacation ! ! ! tufts university internet account lreiter jade tufts edu
andy ie utoronto ca \( andy sun \) subject centris 650 decstation e net adapter organization university toronto , department industrial engineering lines 86 smucs1 umassd edu \( dennis j wilkinson \) writes necessarily thrid party adapter apple manufacture transceivers thinwire 10baset \( twisted pair \) cable media , well aui \( attachment unit interface \) transciever run 100 use thinwire 10baset , 'll probably also need terminators \( apple 's transceivers self terminated , remember correctly , idea \) third party media adapters usually cheaper \( least toronto \) apple 's bought adapters asante instead apple gurman gsfc nasa gov \( joseph b gurman \) writes decstation 5000 models 200 240 come thinwire \( ca n't say certain models 125 133 \) , best bet 's true decstation 5000 200 comes thinwire \( bnc , coaxial \) ethernet connector 5000 25 , 5000 133 5000 240 single 15 pin aui ethernet connector distinctly remembered got 5000 200 first thought going thinwire eventually go back ordered \( dec 's oversized version aui bnc adapter must used transciever cable \) rest stations advise original poster \( beverly \? \) \( 1 \) want create lan two workstations wo n't add machines ever , go thinwire regardless media type going \( unshielded twisted pair \) wiring requires means extra money believe units come least 6 ports , 's nightmare cabling expensive avoid unless choice \( e g two machines two floors parts \) \( 2 \) mac side , need one thinwire media adapter \( apple third party \) macx \( make sure get version 1 2 1 1 7 wo n't run system 7 1 \) mactcp \( comes macx get macx v1 2 , getting mactcp v1 1 1 n't use earlier versions centris \) may may need terminator depending thinwire media adapter ask sales adapter self terminated configure mactcp use ethernet \( 3 \) decstation side , need model 200 , need connector models 25 , 125 , 133 , 240 , need aui bnc adapter get one plugged directly aui port decstation way save cost transciever cable \( 15 pin aui male 15 pin aui female cable \) get terminator two machine network look like decstation centris 5000 200 650 decstation centris 5000 25 , 125 , 133 , 240 650 terminator connector thinwire \( coaxial cable \) aui bnc \( e thick thin \) adapter media adapter \( assuming self terminated \) andy andy sun \( andy ie utoronto ca \) 4 creek road , toronto computing coordinator ontario , canada m5s 1a4 department industrial engineering phone \( 416 \) 978 university toronto fax \( 416 \) 978
max cc uregina ca \( fun yet \? \? \? \) subject vga monitors mac lc series computers organization university regina lines 9 recall reading mac lc \( presumably lc ii iii \) use stand vga monitors , appropriate cable adapters uncertain e asked people say vga monitors used mac lc \? specs needed pc monitor work mac lc \( horizontal nad vertical frequencies \) \?
ferch ucs ubc ca \( les ferch \) subject lcd overhead projectors organization university british columbia lines 25 distribution na nntp posting host swiss ucs ubc ca 1993apr15 ug eds com jan camhpp12 mdcbbs com \( jan vandenbrande \) writes looking one color lcd screens place overhead projector control presentation mac recommend particular brand \? price talking \? good display , must get active matrix panel bright overhead projector designed used lcd panel \( e stage must get hot \) tried proxima ovation unit liked , needed brighter projector \( used 3m 920 \) also expensive get , imho prices active matrix panels rumoured drop substantially sometime year \( something lifted think \) canadian dollars , proxima ovation models ranged price 5000 7000 good overhead projector 1000 1500 kind money , get brighter image three beam projector , sacrifice portability oh yes , proper room lighting extremely important , especially want audience enough light read light wash display front room tricky get right
informix com \( william \) subject toshiba 3401 e p cd rom summary need info difference find e keywords toshiba , cd , cd rom , cd rom organization informix software , inc lines 10 notice toshiba 3401 3 versions , b internal , e external p portable anyone tell difference portable external version \? sf bay area find model p \? thanks , bill william advanced support informix software inc 4100 dr \( 415 \) 926 wk menlo park , ca 94025 uunet ! infmx ! informix com
vm cmp ilstu edu subject converting keyboard mac plus organization illinois state university lines 35 old mac plus couple years ago bought new lc came apple 's new keyboard \( abd ports \) replaced mac pro plus extended keyboard \( thoroughly enjoy , thank much \) well , extra keyboard would like use plus 's little problem plus uses rj 11 jack keyboard input new keyboards n't got extra adb cable local apple dealer \( 're nice people \) , could n't tell order wires four wires adb cables black , white , red , tan know one 's ground , one gets serial signal , one supplies 5 volts , forgot fourth one anyway , hook wrong 'll fry board really n't want brave souls done , please e mail experience directly would greatly appreciate especially since apple 's original keyboard ergonomically correct btw , take apart new keyboard see could find correlation wires rj 11 jack adb since , luck \( connections soldered inside little boxes \) oh , well tis blink eye , tis breath , blossoms health , death , , shroud , , spirit mortal proud \? william knox vm cmp ilstu edu
gene jackatak raider net \( gene wright \) subject mac portable internal fax modems organization jack 's amazing cockroach capitalist ventures lines 8 anyone know still get internal fax modem original mac portable \? know made several manufacturers , ca n't find thanks help gene wright gene jackatak raider net \( gene wright \) jackatak raider net \( 615 \) 377 5980
gene jackatak raider net \( gene wright \) subject mac portable ram problems coprocessor installed \? organization jack 's amazing cockroach capitalist ventures lines 18 recently bought 4 mb ram card original mac portable \( backlit \) since bizarre crashes happens put machine sleep wake machine sometimes freeze cursor lock machine forcing push reset switch times give usual bomb box error message co processor installed know one solution put machine sleep , anyone ideas could causing better yet might fix \? memory card ram goes pds slot probably figures problem manufacturer king memory \( kingston \) irvine , ca say problem machine ideas \? gene wright gene jackatak raider net \( gene wright \) jackatak raider net \( 615 \) 377 5980
edu \( wayne lyle \) subject driver xp60 b organization st joseph 's university lines 14 need driver bernoulli cartridge xp60 b hard disk system got fried n't able locate original disks anyone know get please let know via e mail thanks advance wayne lyle wayne j lyle , , philadelphia , pa
ltd uhura cc rochester edu \( dave \) subject 2 questions centris 650 's ram nntp posting host uhura cc rochester edu organization university rochester \( rochester , ny \) distribution usa lines 18 little luck , could c650 sometime near future , wondering someone could clear two questions 1 speed simms c650 need want \? \( know needs 80ns vram sure main ram \) 2 've heard two conflicting stories total expandibility c650 's ram 132 136 megs true \? \( perhaps another phrasing would better 8 meg version come 8 megs logic board , 4 megs 4 meg simm \? \) wondering dave ltd uhura cc rochester edu 's astounding time madness takes play toll , rocky horror picture show pinball ! disclaimer 're opinions \?
kiran village com \( kiran wagle \) subject replacing internal fdhd w floptical \? organization sea lines 13 nntp posting host cs utexas edu hi , iisi floppy drive might bad \( might alignment , n't checked yet \) \) drive easily , 'd like replace internal floptical easily done \? done \? i'm assuming floptical drives read write 800k 1 4k floppies fact true , please tell thanks advance , kiran
distribution world matthew j wilson mcontent apana org au organization maccontent bbs , , victoria , australia return receipt matthew j wilson mcontent apana org au subject colour card lc lines 8 one know price lc color card aussie dollars \? \? wondering views expressed posting individual author bbs number \( 613 \) 848 1346 maccontent victoria first iconic bbs !
distribution world thomas n krebs mcontent apana org au organization maccontent bbs , , victoria , australia return receipt thomas n krebs mcontent apana org au subject lc ram upgrade slow ! lines 9 yes ! saying true , fail mention fact lciii uses new 72 pin simms allow 32 bit access simm case lc iii , one simm slot , accesses 32 bits views expressed posting individual author bbs number \( 613 \) 848 1346 maccontent victoria first iconic bbs !
d88 jwa hemul nada kth se \( jon w tte \) subject interesting adb behaviour c650 nntp posting host hemul nada kth se organization royal institute technology , stockholm , sweden lines 23 1993apr16 waikato ac nz ldo waikato ac nz \( lawrence d'oliveiro , waikato university \) writes heard warnings anybody apple sure , asked couple technicians , one servicing macs years danger damaging logic boards plugging unplugging adb devices power problem pins adb connector close , happen bend cable little inserting , short adb port take apple repair centre , means new motherboard \( though component replace physically possible \) goes serial ports \( localtalk well \) cheers , h jon w tte , h nada kth se , mac hacker deluxe article printed 100 recycled electrons
d88 jwa hemul nada kth se \( jon w tte \) subject rom accelerated video \? nntp posting host hemul nada kth se organization royal institute technology , stockholm , sweden lines 18 agate berkeley edu web 4f berkeley edu \( james wang \) writes addressing modes commands fills slightly faster since new instructions fetch 2 bytes time versus one even 68000 fetch two bytes time new instruction 68040 16 bytes time instead 4 68030 means 4 24bit pixels instead one cheers , h jon w tte , h nada kth se , mac hacker deluxe article printed 100 recycled electrons
idt unit \( rn \) subject adding int hard disk drive iicx keywords mac iicx , internal , hard disk drive , scsi reply idt unit \( rn \) organization div cs , norwegian institute technology lines 32 n't seen much info add extra internal disk mac would like try , wonder someone good advice mac iicx original internal quantum 40mb hard disk , unusable floppy drive also new spare connor 40mb disk would like use idea replace broken floppy drive new hard disk , seems problems internal scsi cable power cable inside cx connectors one single hard disk drive made ribbon cable power cable three connectors \( 1 motherboard , 1 2 disks \) , would work \? iicx able supply extra power extra disk \? terminators \? suppose remove resistor packs disk closest motherboard , leave installed disk scsi id jumpers also changed new disk gets id 1 old one id 0 problem us remove floppy drive , external floppy use wo n't boot hard disk thank ! rn email idt unit
organization rohm haas company rohvm1 rohmhaas com subject wanted 120m hard drive lines 5 market 120m hard drive ! iisi 5 80 almost filled ! anyone selling hd 's mac cheap \? get one mail order best place buy best prices \? anyone net newsgroup sells wholesale cheaper \? info would appreciated ! thanks !
feilimau leland stanford edu \( christopher yale lin \) subject mac iisi power limitations summary \? organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa lines 9 mac iisi considering upgrades \( cards , hard drive , etc \) tell power limitations 1 \) pds slot 2 \) hard drive power feed secondly , tell separate limit , instead , single limit combined \? felix lin , new reader comp sys mac hardware feilimau leland stanford edu
tzs stein2 u washington edu \( tim smith \) subject quadra scsi problems \? \? \? organization university washington school law , class '95 lines 21 nntp posting host stein2 u washington edu keywords quadra scsi aps attention mac quadra owners many storage industry experts concluded mac quadras suffer timing irregularities deviating standard scsi specification results silent corruption data used devices , including ultra modern devices although name devices , since fault , example would sony 3 5 inch mo , without special mac compatible firmware installed one solution , sometimes , disable blind writes n't sound right n't quadras use \? , mac nothing scsi timing 's handled chip timing could wrong apple programs clock registers wrong 96 , however , really hurt synchronous transfer , used mac scsi manager furthermore , disabling blind writes meaningless quadra macs used , much lower level scsi chip , mac responsible handshake byte transferred blind mode affected mac handled handshake , handshake entirely handled chip tim smith
csp1dwd mvs oac ucla edu \( csp1dwd \) subject get 640 x 480 13 monitor \? nntp posting host mvs oac ucla edu lines 12 article carsona sfu ca , carsona fraser sfu ca \( debra carson \) writes would virtual screen larger size use \? using stepping v \? \? time still working powerbook system 7 1 , minor problem menubar icons right edge 's latest version stepping works ok s7 1 \? denis
young u tokyo ac jp \( young hong \) subject looking free share wares nntp posting host poplar organization dept information science , univ tokyo , japan distribution comp x bytes 285 lines 14 hi ! looking ftp sites \( \) mac help lot driver source codes ftp sites information appreciated thanks advance young dept info sc univ tokyo email young u tokyo ac jp
mcguire utkvx utk edu \( michael mcguire \) subject 2 questions centris 650 's ram organization university tennessee computing center x newsreader link v1 1 distribution usa lines 27 article 1993apr16 galileo cc rochester edu , ltd uhura cc rochester edu \( dave \) wrote little luck , could c650 sometime near future , wondering someone could clear two questions 1 speed simms c650 need want \? \( know needs 80ns vram sure main ram \) 60ns 72 pin simms 2 've heard two conflicting stories total expandibility c650 's ram 132 136 megs true \? \( perhaps another phrasing would better 8 meg version come 8 megs logic board , 4 megs 4 meg simm \? \) 2 4mb 8mb case memory soldered board leaving 4 simm sockets open total addressable memory 650 wondering michael mcguire , \) mcguire utkvx utk edu utcc user services
rock concert net \( bruce smith personal account \) subject disappearing hard drive lc \? organization concert connect public access unix lines 31 internal hd lc disappeared day last week , 'd like hear \( reasonable \) theories folks suggest happened lc , 10mb ram 80mb internal drive , running system 7 1 , scsi devices \( far know \) properly terminated chain shut system day town sometimes time year upon restarting got blinking question mark booted floppy saw external hd seemed okay , sign internal installed system folder external , indeed , able boot tried things like disk first aid silverlining , inquire internal drive either could find got errors trying talk \( silverlining claimed connor drive , quantum \) well , 'd backed things , able work , point noticed internal , disk first aid says 's well , etc things seem fine , happened \? warning something \( internal hd something else \) die \? i'm definitely nervous , signal internal hd sick , true put drive inside lc \? folks claimed 's limitation lc \( size power \) others \( includes , phone \) say anything fits okay thanks answers
petrack vnet ibm com subject disabling power management interrupts reply petrack vnet ibm com disclaimer posting may contain views news software usenet 3 1 lines 21 could someone please one following 1 point init allows turn power management duo 210 1 write init would allow turn power management duo 210 2 point documentation power management write init 3 explain init totally partially impossible ideally , course , would like able turn fly surely init would helpful powerbook owners want midi cannot imagine possible , unless requires apple secret case , surely apple could write init \( unless apple brings new models fast days even n't know work \) scott petrack petrack vnet ibm com
pip cc brandeis edu \( joe \) subject apple announce 3 new performas \( versions 400 \) reply pip cc brandeis edu organization brandeis university lines 12 article 1993apr12 desire wright edu , demon desire wright edu \( boomer \) writes apple announced start selling three new performa 400 new machines built modems bundled software new models 405 , 430 450 prices set apple , retailer prices new machines expected range 1300 1900 kind post \? something substantial tell world , least give us details ! coming new macs , always 's new models \? etc
smith anu edu au \( michael smith \) subject desktop rebuild datadesk keyboard \? organization australian national university lines 17 nntp posting host 150 203 22 65 reply mirsky hal gnu ai mit edu 's message 15 apr 1993 19 35 58 0400 datadesk mac 101e keyboard similar problems found holding right hand shift key startup work \( disable extensions \) , left hand shift key wo n't \( unfortunate , since left one one instinctively reach \) similarly , trained hold right hand pair command option desktop rebuilds irritating cheers , michael michael smith smith anu edu au mathematics research section australian national university
gpb gpb mac \( greg \) subject memory upgrades nntp posting host 222 1 248 85 reply gpb gpb mac sps mot com organization memories motorola x newsreader tin 1 1 pl4 lines 33 jacob berkeley edu \( \) writes excuse frequent question , checked several faqs could n't really find anything excused answer varies mac mac would complex answer faq iisi standard 5 meg memory want \( need \) add additional memory i'm budget really n't need 10 meg max , best \( performance wise \) economical way \? someone told use simms amount memory , 4 1 meg , 4 2 meg , etc wanted buy 1 4 meg use rest already \? manual n't helpful si uses 32 bit wide data bus therefore must use 4 8 bit wide simms sorry , short cuts thanks 're quite welcome greg words , motorola 's equal rights special rights gpb gpb mac sps mot com bi ride back bus greg \( 512 \) 928 silence death motorola austin , texas , usa first , true mailing list gpb mac sps mot com \( motorola \)
mueck analog com \( mick mueck \) subject ok set 54 lbs top centris 610 \? \? \? reply mueck analog com organization analog devices , inc lines 14 question nec 5fg monitor apple guy said 16 monitor ok put centris beyond going put nec box got thinking monitor small tilt swivel base maybe weight would concentrated apple 's \( n't know area base tilt swivel \) additionally , cdrom drive middle cut piece 3 8 thick wood 16 25 x 12 , covered cream covered cloth , used buffer layer centris 's top monitor ! ! mick mueck mick mueck analog com hate
distribution world jim chow edgeway wimsey bc ca organization ! subject got spare imagewriter cover \? lines 21 anyone replacement cover needed use imagewriter \? fool printer working without cover sticking suitable magnet cover sensor \? thanks help , ralph magnet trick work careful apply white tape rubber carriage roller , tells scanner edge come jim ! name edgeway wimsey bc ca gui bbs \( 604 \) 984 voice \( 604 \) 984 views expressed individual author firstclass \( tm \) lite \( tm \) north vancouver , bc canada
sunnyt coding bchs uh edu subject lciii problems organization university houston lines 32 reply ln63sdm sdcc4 ucsd edu nntp posting host bchs uh edu article 1993apr16 leland stanford edu ravi konchigeri mongoose leland stanford edu writes finally got computer fixed 'd like sum hard drive companies original 160 meg drive bad \( bad sector something \) ibm new one quantum lciii supposed shipped ibms \? quality difference \? apparently ! \) second , hard drive position 've put lciii side new 160 hd problems 've even switched back forth horizontal vertical problems far i'm concerned n't believe hd position important drives 160 meg , computer n't know cd rom , though like everything else life , right lane ends half mile ravi konchigeri mongoose leland stanford edu ravi , good idea horizontally formatted hard disk vertical position drive formatted horizontal position , completely compensate gravitational pull vertical position i'm saying hard disk fail tomorrow 6 months , take chance \? want detailed info problem , please mail sunnyt dna bchs uh edu sunny
kephart kephart snowhite eeap cwru edu subject lciii problems \( sideways hd 's \) organization case school engineering lines 27 distribution world nntp posting host b62182 student cwru edu x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d20 x xxmessage id b62182 student cwru edu x xxdate fri , 16 apr 93 11 14 26 gmt article menudo uh edu , sunnyt coding bchs uh edu writes good idea horizontally formatted hard disk vertical position drive formatted horizontal position , completely compensate gravitational pull vertical position i'm saying hard disk fail tomorrow 6 months , take chance \? want detailed info problem , please mail sunnyt dna bchs uh edu sunny , asked question ago contemplating placing 650 's side received response someone seagate \( sorry trashed message \) stating newer drives \( least \) well compensate gravity means horizontally formatted drive later placed vertically data integrity problems way newer drives cannot work varying forces \( shaking , bouncing , etc \) n't place drive 's side rocking chair \) constitutes drive n't know , try calling drive manufacturer quantum internal , since got month ago , guessing 's
donovan bnr ca \( marc donovan \) subject want use deskjet system7 nntp posting host organization bell northern research ltd , ottawa distribution comp lines 30 article mori ceres mfd cs fujitsu co jp mori volga mfd cs fujitsu co jp \( mori \) writes used hp deskjet orange micros grappler ls 0 5 update system 6 0 5 system7 kanji talk 7 1 , print deskjet grappler ls old \? use deskjet system7 \? please tell use deskjet system7 thank japan mori volga mfd cs fujitsu co jp currently use hp deskjet grappler ls ver 1 0 , works system7 course , use swa dutch swa swiss fonts came , due 4x size requirement print hp \( ie must definition print font \) upgraded , talked orange micro , state ver 1 2 grappler ls definitely works system7 however , upgrade us 40 , passed hope helps \? marc marc donovan donovan bnr ca voice \( 613 \) 765 fax \( 613 \) 763 disclaimer one responsible opinions
hades coos dartmouth edu \( brian v hughes \) subject lciii powerpc \? reply hades dartmouth edu organization dartmouth college , hanover , nh disclaimer personally , really n't care think speak moderator rec arts comics info lines 10 mirsky hal gnu ai mit edu \( david joshua mirsky \) writes hi lciii recently heard interesting rumor heard lciii built slot powerpc chip true \? heard slot pds slot true \? n't believe hype thing powerpc slot hades
nodine lcs mit edu \( mark h nodine \) subject quadra scsi problems \? \? \? keywords quadra scsi aps organization mit laboratory computer science lines 9 n't know specific problem mentioned message , definitely scsi problems q700 venerable jasmine megadrive 10 cartridge drives solution get silverlining none loops involved blind writes worked drives fact loop worked macintosh software loop \( whatever means \) mark
jim jagubox gsfc nasa gov \( jim jagielski \) subject quadra scsi problems \? \? \? keywords quadra scsi aps lines 29 reply jim jagubox gsfc nasa gov \( jim jagielski \) organization nasa goddard space flight center tzs stein2 u washington edu \( tim smith \) writes attention mac quadra owners many storage industry experts concluded mac quadras suffer timing irregularities deviating standard scsi specification results silent corruption data used devices , including ultra modern devices although name devices , since fault , example would sony 3 5 inch mo , without special mac compatible firmware installed one solution , sometimes , disable blind writes n't sound right n't quadras use \? , mac nothing scsi timing 's handled chip timing could wrong apple programs clock registers wrong 96 , however , really hurt synchronous transfer , used mac scsi manager furthermore , disabling blind writes meaningless quadra macs used , much lower level scsi chip , mac responsible handshake byte transferred blind mode affected mac handled handshake , handshake entirely handled chip docs say 's scsi manager bug , changes things jim jagielski 's gonna stiff say , jim jagubox gsfc nasa gov 'hey ! lama ! something , nasa gsfc , code 734 4 know , effort ! ' greenbelt , md 20771
johnston udel edu \( bill johnston \) subject quadra scsi problems \? \? \? keywords quadra scsi aps nntp posting host udel edu organization university delaware lines 19 article 1993apr16 144750 1568 mintaka lcs mit edu nodine lcs mit edu \( mark h nodine \) writes n't know specific problem mentioned message , definitely scsi problems q700 venerable jasmine megadrive 10 cartridge drives solution get silverlining none loops involved blind writes worked drives fact loop worked macintosh software loop \( whatever means \) doubt quadra specific problem get rid venerable bernoulli 20 last year \( enough cartridges purchased 90 make whole thing worth whole computer \) tech support guys ocean microsystems suggested third party drivers might fix problem case cartridges would n't format mount partition ux bill johnston \( johnston udel edu \) 38 chambers street newark , de \( 302 \) 368 1949
cs utexas edu \( benjamin w \) subject mac ii scsi pmmu socket question organization cs dept , university texas austin lines 29 distribution world nntp posting host cs utexas edu article jethro corp sun com marantz corp sun com writes 1 mac ii supposed socket pmmu chip could anyone let know socket motherboard obtained pmmu chip \( 16 mhz \) surplus store , would like install onto mac ii \( circa 1987 \) cannot see socket tried install original mac ii apple mmu chip installed performs subset 's functions look underneath front left floppy bay find three chips , approximately size one 68020 , next , third , approximately size , apple chip easy spot middle example apple logo make easy find ben cs utexas edu
wyvern wyvern com \( doug ashley \) subject lciii problems organization wyvern com lines 25 ravi konchigeri mongoose leland stanford edu writes hard drive companies original 160 meg drive bad \( bad sector something \) ibm new one quantum lciii supposed shipped ibms \? quality difference \? officially , experience \( included ! \) , yes seem problem free brand mac second , hard drive position 've put lciii side new 160 hd problems 've even switched back forth horizontal vertical problems far i'm concerned n't believe hd position important drives 160 meg , computer n't know cd rom , though matter hard drive mac well , long n't fall \) doug signature construction wyvern technologies 's premier online information system \( 804 \) 627 , login guest , password guest register
dlc umcc umcc umich edu \( david \) subject noisy se \? organization umcc , ann arbor , mi lines 27 distribution usa nntp posting host umcc umcc umich edu article cae cad gatech edu vincent cad gatech edu \( vincent fox \) writes 's old se 's got older style fans remind house ventilator cylindrical drum instead rotor usually see anyway , se makes loud buzzing noise due vibration somewheres remove screws loosen front back , assume fan housing goofy thing touching back case vibrating anyway , suggestions get replacement fans stealth guy \? experiences welcome everything gone planned , everything would perfect batf spokesperson cnn 3 2 93 , regarding failed raid attempt tx owned se , replaced fan se silencer , available , believe , macwarehouse macconnection comes instruction installation requires soldering worked like charm think manufacturer dave dlc umcc ais org 313 485
hades coos dartmouth edu \( brian v hughes \) subject lc iii nubus capable \? reply hades dartmouth edu organization dartmouth college , hanover , nh disclaimer personally , really n't care think speak moderator rec arts comics info lines 12 mmiller garnet msen com \( marvin miller \) writes friend recently purchased lc iii wants know demon called nubus adapter pds slot \? compusa says n't carry mean lc iii incapable carrying nubus board \? yes exactly means lc family macs use pds cards able use nubus hades
tthiel cs uiuc edu \( terry thiel \) subject desktop rebuild datadesk keyboard \? organization university illinois , dept comp sci , urbana , il lines 15 smith anu edu au \( michael smith \) writes similarly , trained hold right hand pair command option desktop rebuilds tried right set n't work i'm phone tech support right guys n't know desktop rebuild ! ! ! 's got holding someone else holding , holding , holding ok finally got back said basically work well n't know guess go back macconnection 'll buy something else 've got better things play musical keyboards terry
fc hp com \( rod \) subject , nntp posting host fc hp com organization hewlett packard , fort collins , co x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 5 lines 15 regards , rod rod ms 37 email hewlett packard fc hp com east harmony rd fort collins , co 80525 ux
dsg cs tcd ie \( sylvain \) subject fpu se \( probably dumb question \) organization dsg , dept computer science , trinity college dublin lines 11 possible fit fpu mac se \? \( se 30 , plain old se \) possible , would get speed increase \? would reference chip \? thanks advance , sylvain r , phone \( 353 1 \) , e mail dsg cs tcd ie distributed system group , o'reilly institute , room f 35 , fax \( 353 1 \) department computer science , trinity college , dublin 2 , ireland ask 18
andrem mis pyramid com \( andre molyneux \) subject lciii powerpc \? reply andrem mis pyramid com \( andre molyneux \) organization pyramid technologies , mt view , california lines 34 article hal gnu ai mit edu , mirsky hal gnu ai mit edu \( david joshua mirsky \) writes hi lciii recently heard interesting rumor heard lciii built slot powerpc chip true \? heard slot pds slot true \? thanks david mirsky mirsky gnu ai mit edu well , also lc iii popping top revealed one socket additional vram simm one socket 72 pin ram simm one socket flat pack fpu processor direct slot \( pds \) identical lc lc ii , additional set one side \( full 32 bit data path lc lc ii lacked 's guess board powerpc chip could made would fit pds , 's place andre molyneux insert favorite disclaimer pyramid technology corp internet n first street andrem pyramid com san jose , ca packet \( 408 \) 428 8229 n0ary nocal ca usa na
tesla mitre org \( peter engels \) subject 2 questions centris 650 's ram nntp posting host engels mitre org organization mitre corporation distribution usa lines 28 article mcguire newsserver utcc utk edu , mcguire utkvx utk edu \( michael mcguire \) wrote article 1993apr16 galileo cc rochester edu , ltd uhura cc rochester edu \( dave \) wrote little luck , could c650 sometime near future , wondering someone could clear two questions 1 speed simms c650 need want \? \( know needs 80ns vram sure main ram \) 60ns 72 pin simms 2 've heard two conflicting stories total expandibility c650 's ram 132 136 megs true \? \( perhaps another phrasing would better 8 meg version come 8 megs logic board , 4 megs 4 meg simm \? \) 2 4mb 8mb case memory soldered board leaving 4 simm sockets open total addressable memory 650 according \( seen several times \) postings dale adams apple computer , 610 650 require 80ns simms 60 ns centris 800 requires 60 ns simms pete
ellens bnr ca \( chris ellens \) subject hd setup partition \( ok set 54 lbs top centris 610 \? \? \? nntp posting host organization bell northern research lines 21 article 1993apr15 urbana mcd mot com , feldman urbana mcd mot com \( mike feldman \) wrote figure 's hope using partition button hard disk setup utility \( dare try see happens \? \) , maybe divide wealth among family members bit getting information section manual suggested trying avenues calling apple , n't mention net mike feldman , motorola computer group , \( 217 \) 384 , fax \( 217 \) 384 1101 east university avenue pager il \( 800 \) 302 , \( 217 \) 351 urbana , il 61801 \( \) ! ! feldman feldman urbana mcd mot com partition button apple 's hd setup lets set ux types partitions let create one normal mac volume need silverlining something similar , however , allow take advantage possible unused space hard disk , n't mind reformatting whole thing chris ellens ellens bnr ca
nyx cs du edu \( russ snyder \) subject performa 450 internal modem \? x disclaimer nyx public access unix system run university denver denver community university neither control responsibility opinions users organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept lines 10 article news bbn com ado bbn com \( owen \) writes hear performa 450 really lciii internal modem modem part obtained installed lciii \? would nice actually powerbook internal modem , might much hope believe misinformed checked one 's sears last week modem external 2400bps data send fax
chen nuclear med bcm tmc edu \( \) subject get 640 x 480 13 monitor \? organization baylor college medicine lines 5 distribution na reply chen nuclear bcm tmc edu nntp posting host nuclear med bcm tmc edu keywords 13 monitor , 8 24 resolution try \( shareware init \) monitor driven internal video chen
erics netcom com \( eric smith \) subject pb100 memory upgrade organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 16 eniac seas upenn edu \( george \) writes pb100 use different memory newer models \? looking buy 2mb upgrade , need know powerbooks use 2mb card think powerbooks use 2 meg upgrade , 4 meg 6 meg upgrades different pb100 pbs eric smith erics netcom com erics infoserv com ci 70262 , 3610
crux1 cit cornell edu \( jason macdonald \) subject lc ram upgrade slow ! nntp posting host crux1 cit cornell edu reply cornell edu organization corporation lines 35 douce tfsquad mn org \( andrew geweke \) writes cannot speak dale quite sure macintosh uses full 16 bit 32 bit data path full advantage , running fast two four 30 pin simms would one 72 pin simm , may accesses \( assuming 32 bit data path \) get first byte first simm , second byte second , would mean memory actually split among four simms , one byte hand , could simms interleaved word \( byte \) , could successive memory , memory controller deals eight bit data path one suspect , though , interleaved extent 32 bits read written would indicate byte level interleave confusing new interleave two 72 pin simms sort , although seems sort idea , get essential 64 bit data path ro \( excuse , \) ram instead 32 bit one yes , cpu ca n't handle , writing successive addresses speeds something , dale , right \? 30 pin simms interleaved bytes , allowing full data bus \? , common usenet particular , clueless everyone else \? conclusion drawn \? i'm trying figure kind memory configuration lc iii \( 32 bit \) would fastest ideas \? thanks , jason macdonald jason scott macdonald cornell edu crux3 cit cornell edu technology sufficiently advanced indistinguishable magic cats exist arthur c clarke may lion
afit af mil \( l maurice \) subject lciii cache card \? summary rumors \? announcements \? nntp posting host bat afit af mil organization air force institute technology lines 4 anyone seen press releases heard rumors cache card lciii , full data bus width pds slot \? maurice internet afit af mil
jmilhoan magnus acs ohio state edu \( jt \) subject help need modem info duo 210 nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 10 hi alternatives express modem duo owners \( want go least 9600 baud \) \? every place town says back ordered , part reason want laptop mac use remote terminal wherever , really would hate wait 2 months get modem settle 2400 baud thank ,
noah apple com \( noah price \) subject long ram simm 's last \? distribution usa organization \( opinions \) apple computer , inc lines 12 article 1993apr11 ultb isc rit edu , ultb isc rit edu \( j e king \) wrote n't 1 mb simm 1024 1024 8 moving flip flops \? n't move , anybody much bigger electron \) noah noah apple com macintosh hardware design ! sun , decwrl ! apple ! noah \( opinions \) apple computer , inc
noah apple com \( noah price \) subject quadra scsi problems \? \? \? organization \( opinions \) apple computer , inc lines 24 article shelley u washington edu , tzs stein2 u washington edu \( tim smith \) wrote attention mac quadra owners many storage industry experts concluded mac quadras suffer timing irregularities deviating standard scsi specification results silent corruption data used devices , including ultra modern devices although name devices , since fault 's fine , would name experts try track \? n't sound right n't quadras use \? , mac nothing scsi timing 's handled chip yup 's i'm kinda curious scsi problems 've encountered due cabling noah noah apple com macintosh hardware design ! sun , decwrl ! apple ! noah \( opinions \) apple computer , inc
noah apple com \( noah price \) subject lc iii nubus capable \? organization \( opinions \) apple computer , inc lines 18 article nigel msen com , mmiller garnet msen com \( marvin miller \) wrote friend recently purchased lc iii wants know demon called nubus adapter pds slot \? compusa says n't carry mean lc iii incapable carrying nubus board \? apple n't make card , though suppose third party could one big problem n't room standard nubus card inside lc iii noah noah apple com macintosh hardware design ! sun , decwrl ! apple ! noah \( opinions \) apple computer , inc
noah apple com \( noah price \) subject put centris 650 internal bay \? organization \( opinions \) apple computer , inc lines 31 article world std com , jbailey world std com \( jim bailey \) wrote hades coos dartmouth edu \( brian v hughes \) writes tzs stein2 u washington edu \( tim smith \) writes jbailey world std com \( jim bailey \) writes yes , get internal mixing analog cd audio outputs mac generated audio mac motherboard also sample cd audio using sound control panel clicking options button next microphone icon click options button \? 've never seen latest word disconnect microphone cable motherboard button supposed un dim audio simply select cd audio microphone removed n't believe button un , since 's nothing select n't tracked centris check though sorry , assumed various new machines internal cd rom bay worked quadra 900 obviously n't yup , made mistake several months ago issue came \) noah noah apple com macintosh hardware design ! sun , decwrl ! apple ! noah \( opinions \) apple computer , inc
dhk ubbpc uucp \( dave kitabjian \) subject x86 680x0 \? \? \( compare \? \) distribution usa organization unisys unix center , blue bell , pa lines 36 i'm sure intel motorola competing neck neck crunch power , given clock speed , rank following \( 1st 6th \) 486 68040 386 68030 286 68020 're , following fit list 68060 pentium powerpc clock speed doubling clock speed double overall processor speed \? fill 's 68030 mhz 68040 mhz thanks much 'd appreciate hearing explanations experienced folks , ! p folks trouble replying lately reply command try typing address hand work thanks ! dave kitabjian \( kit \) vital statistics k 10 east garden way favorite phil dayton , nj favorite computer macintosh c c \( 908 \) 274 spaghetti preference semi broken tredysvr ! ubbpc ! dhk tp installation pref top vfl paramax com favorite book bible favorite rush limbaugh commercial , part iii favorite contradiction pro child pro choice
arie eecs umich edu \( arie \) subject hp deskwriter opinions \? feedback ! reply phil csc liv ac uk 's message 14 apr 93 14 22 39 gmt reply arie eecs umich edu organization ai lab , university michigan compsci liverpool ac uk lines 16 like lot worth additional expense problem found ms word \( 5 1a \) table longer page cells visible border , last \( bottom page \) line first page missing makes difference table formatted worst n't show word 's page view page preview arie arie university michigan ai lab phone \( 313 \) 994 room 149 , advanced technology bldg internet arie eecs umich edu 1101 beal ave , ann arbor , mi 48109
ccw nosubdomain nodomain \( christopher wood \) subject long ram simm 's last \? organization bellcore , livingston , nj distribution usa lines 21 article noah noah apple com , noah apple com \( noah price \) writes article 1993apr11 ultb isc rit edu , ultb isc rit edu \( j e king \) wrote n't 1 mb simm 1024 1024 8 moving flip flops \? n't move , anybody much bigger electron \) dynamic ram based flip flops 's basically single transistor capacitor store bit ! static ram based flip flops , much expensive much less dense neither parts move , electrons thermal expansion ignored noah chris chris wood bellcore ccw ctt bellcore com
chris roberts ctr po cwru edu subject floptical question organization case western reserve university lines 28 distribution world nntp posting host student cwru edu x useragent nuntius v1 1 x xxmessage id student cwru edu x xxdate fri , 16 apr 93 21 04 15 gmt article slip ots utexas edu billy lee myers , ccwf cc utexas edu writes floptical , course different technology , n't enjoy long term data storage last time looked , floptical disk n't cheap , \( 30 per floptical disk 1 40 per megabyte , 60 per 1 36 per megabyte \) n't know many times 've posted net one ever listens floptical media 1 40 megabyte n't know buy flopticals 30 per 2 disks see 75 , 1 40 , i'm buying bulk , i'm getting special deal 75 meg good book , floppy price questions source sent ctr po cwru edu chris chris roberts go ctr po cwru edu ctr som cwru edu roberts snowhite eeap cwru edu roberts alpha ces cwru edu well , least know find logged terminal , checking mail
cis ohio state edu \( stephen richard \) subject 68040 sale absolutely never used organization ohio state university computer science lines 14 distribution usa nntp posting host gecko cis ohio state edu new 25 mhz motorola 68040 willing sell get good enough offer still static free sealed package n't get good enough offer , use replace 68lc040 takers \? supposedly get one 375 however , moment demand higher supply think 400 good round number pay shipping , course offers send cis ohio state edu
vm cmp ilstu edu subject updated keyboard question plus organization illinois state university lines 44 old mac plus couple years ago bought new lc came apple 's new keyboard \( abd ports \) replaced mac pro plus extended keyboard \( thoroughly enjoy , thank much \) well , extra keyboard would like use plus 's little problem plus uses rj 11 jack keyboard input new keyboards n't got extra adb cable local apple dealer \( 're nice people \) , could n't tell order wires four wires adb cables black , white , red , tan know one 's ground , one gets serial signal , one supplies 5 volts , forgot fourth one anyway , hook wrong 'll fry board really n't want brave souls done , please e mail experience directly would greatly appreciate especially since apple 's original keyboard ergonomically correct btw , take apart new keyboard see could find correlation wires rj 11 jack adb since , luck \( connections soldered inside little boxes \) oh , well one thing case thinking abd ports newer models different connection used plus 're right however , use telephone cable plus connect mac pro plus keyboard via rj 11 jack words , little engineering feat wish possible 's merely matter finding correct order , get work , definitely post solution others , thanx input tis blink eye , tis breath , blossoms health , death , , shroud , , spirit mortal proud \? william knox vm cmp ilstu edu
yak com \( tom dickens \) subject iisi clock upgrades organization boeing computer services lines 22 watching iisi speedup reports plan upgrade next weeks plan build small board different crystals able switch different speeds using front pannel switch way get speed want also run slower \( stock \) speeds experience compatability problems applications n't expect able switch clock speeds system running , switch without lock problems , could switch 33mhz needed put back idle \( 20 mhz \) would reduce wear tear cpu even heat sink course would want run different clock signals switch use chip two board select frequency desired route directly mother board n't started probing around inside si yet anyone know voltage level power crystal \? thanks tom dickens boeing computer services yak ca boeing com statements mine boeing 's
root ncube com \( operator \) subject fax modem best \? nntp posting host admin reply root ncube com organization ncube corp , foster city , ca lines 19 well using home office bought 350 14 4 n't know 's data fax feature use mail box , really liked captain zod zod ncube com 0 0
root ncube com \( operator \) subject \? nntp posting host admin reply root ncube com organization ncube corp , foster city , ca lines 27 make lot difference \? understand , graphics cpu graphics help scanner photo shop \? combination practical \? mac iici kinds use \? captain zod zod ncube com 0 0
root ncube com \( operator \) subject photo shop scanner \? nntp posting host admin reply root ncube com organization ncube corp , foster city , ca lines 23 macc iici color scanner scanned picture 600 dpi try print color printer , 10 minutes making noise , mac hangs would need reboot mean \? need buy memory \? 5 0 mb also 50 mb disk free , scanned picture 12 mb captain zod zod ncube com 0 0
subject mac plus constantly rebooting ! stubbs hawk cs ukans edu \( jerry stubbs \) organization university kansas computer science dept lines 14 side note , anyone ever mac plus smoke \? four machines sudden start emitting thick white smoke case capacitor gone bad anyone else encountered \? keith cooley ee macintosh lab administrator louisiana tech university engr latech edu 've happen time two beginning students think pretty entertaining happens lab lecture demonstration
ccu umanitoba ca \( michael \) subject request info floptical drives keywords floptical , mac , drives nntp posting host ccu umanitoba ca organization university manitoba , winnipeg , canada lines 20 i'm considering adding floptical drive current system would like know floptical drives recommended quality performance preference would floptical drives capable handling 800k 1 4k floppies , handling 800k floppies necessity far , know bit iomega floptical infinity floptical drives comments recommendations either \? floptical drives worth looking purchased \( e mail order places , etc \) thanks advance please send replies directly ccu umanitoba ca mike \( ccu umanitoba ca \)
matt ksu ksu edu \( david paul peak \) subject sale teleport adb 2400bps modem w send fax organization kansas state university lines 12 nntp posting host matt ksu ksu edu selling global village teleport 2400 bps modem w send fax connects mac adb port software sending faxes included asking 90 however , consider reasonable offers please e mail dave dave peak internet matt ksu ksu edu aol
matt ksu ksu edu \( david paul peak \) subject sale 2 4mb 80ns simms organization kansas state university lines 12 nntp posting host matt ksu ksu edu two 4 meg simms trying sell lc would like get 100 one three months old lifetime warrenty 80ns simms also consider reasonable offers please e mail dave internet matt ksu ksu edu aol
subject put ex syquest centris 610 \? cstp umkc edu organization um kansas city , computer science nntp posting host vax2 cstp umkc edu lines 17 remember reading thread days ago mentioned removing external syquest drive case dropping internal drive centris going 610 , couple questions pli 80m syquest drive wire drive id switch outside case connect switch \? \? computer tell internal drives \? noticed drive lay part motherboard \( n't look closely , seem recall laying ram 's soldered onto motherboard \? would cause problems \? one last question ! anywhere order faceplate cover \? drive 's front panel smaller space left case \( drive 's panel size clone 's cases \) cut hole plastic panel currently holding place \? ans welcomed ! thanks ! keith moffatt vax2 cstp umkc edu
nswc wo navy mil \( paul montanaro \) subject iici q700 upgrade \? organization nswc lines 44 article 1993apr15 thunder mcrcim mcgill edu , dudek mcrcim mcgill edu \( gregory dudek \) wrote article austin ibm com login austin ibm com writes ago posted note asking specs quadra 700 , opinions q700 upgrade iici vs accelerator card far 've noticed please let know think possible upgrade paths cost , efficiency , pros cons , etc thanks ! complete q700 best obtained dealer recent copy macworld macuser memory suggests relevant comparison factors vis vis iici follows 25 mhz 68040 16 mhz data path \( n't recall sure , 's slower q 950 style machines sure \) card board audio 4 mb ram motherboard 4 simm slots 2 nubus slots flexible build video ci uses vram comparison , iici accelerator wo n't give audio ethernet video options 68040 accelerator , cpu performance comparable think ends costing greg dudek actually , accelerator daystar 33 mhz 68040 cheaper upgrading q700 \( 25 mhz \) accelerator costs 1400 whereas upgrade costs 2131 \( quoted dealer \) however q700 upgrade gives fast built video supports monitors 21 8 bit depth 16 24 bit depth \( additional vram \) also scsi port capable much faster throughput ci , makes big difference fast hard drive improved video scsi features important , 're better getting q700 upgrade , otherwise save money get accelerator paul
daniel salber salber imag fr subject quadras vram question x xxmessage id planet imag fr x xxdate fri , 16 apr 93 23 22 27 gmt nntp posting host planet organization imag institute , grenoble , france x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d20 lines 28 hi , question regarding quadras vram tried find info could get precise answers one hand , quadra 950 16 monitor , capable 32 bit color much vram \? hand , quadra 800 16 monitor , capable 8 bit color , must 512 ko vram would like take vram simms 950 put 800 machines 16 bit color capability possible , yes , many vram simms take 950 \? documentation , quadra 800 must get 1 mo vram 16 bit color , correct \? bonus question vram simms hide \? 950 documentation , seem behind power supply really take power supply access vram simms \? thanks help ! daniel salber , user interface research team , lgi imag , grenoble , france salber imag fr
lian mips com \( jeff lian \) subject monitor lciii keywords lciii monitor organization mips technologies , inc lines 27 nntp posting host arctic mti sgi com originator lian arctic mti sgi com hi folks i'm planning buy lciii need advice choosing monitor people recommend decent 14 15 monitor \? looked ads spec nec 4fg price within budget , could lciii able use various resolutions available 4fg \( specifically 1024x768 resolution \) \? lciii support one resolution \? also recommendations reliable mail order place lciii monitors \? anyone experience following mail order places \? express \( houston , tx \) usa flex \( , il \) thanks , jeff jeff lian lian mti sgi com lian mips com mips technologies , inc 2011 n shoreline boulevard p box 175
staff tc umn edu \( \) subject fax modem mac nntp posting host staff tc umn edu organization university minnesota lines 26 hi thanks responded request info various kinds fax modem 'd like ask questions 1 advantages buying global village teleport gold cheaper brands like supra , zoom etc \? 2 heard supra zoom use software many complaints incompatibility problems supra \? kind incompatibility \? 3 decided buy teleport gold , possibility add voice option near future \? 4 anyone heard possible voice option supra offer coming summer \? 5 person mention new modem getting good reviews various mac magazines \? 6 want best , fastest , economically sound possible voice option , fax modem buy \? sorry posting many questions , think 're necessary promise repost answers 're already posted thanks much advance regards , thian
erme pobox upenn edu \( erme \) subject macs suck ! buy pc ! organization university pennsylvania lines 7 nntp posting host pobox upenn edu test erme
mmadsen bonnie ics uci edu \( matt madsen \) subject se 30 acc graphics card \? nntp posting host bonnie ics uci edu reply mmadsen ics uci edu \( matt madsen \) organization univ calif , irvine , info computer sci dept lines 9 graphics cards se 30 also , say , 040 accelerator \? seem plenty accelerator graphics cards se , none \( 've seen \) se 30 thanks matt madsen mmadsen ics uci edu
jas isi edu \( jeff sullivan \) subject adb mouse ii \( ergo \) \? organization usc isi lines 11 distribution comp nntp posting host tigger isi edu apple supposed start new ergonomic adb mouse ii cpus sold \? jas jeffrey sullivan research scientist et al jas isi edu \( internet \) information sciences institute , 402 \( compuserve \) university southern california
nas nasa gov \( forrest e iii \) subject help scsi woes mac iifx keywords scsi , iifx organization nasa ames research center lines 46 trouble scsi mac iifx machine 3 years old using hard drive \( internal maxtor lxt \) two half years disk recently crashed reformatted \( silverlining 5 42 \) , reformat received random write errors testing error message reported like sector 0 write error detected testing good sector mapped occurred randomly hard disk \( makes suspect diagnostic 's reference sector 0 \? \? \? \) third reformat reinstalling scsi read write loops able get passes 2 , 3 , 4 errors \( pass 1 reason reported lot errors , still mapped sectors \) decided go ahead try system 7 reload data backup normally however , sub optimal performance symptoms include frequent crashes instances extremely sluggish disk access requiring reboot correct instances finding disk scsi chain reboot boot norton occurs , cannot find disk either thing fixes power sometimes requires several attempts questions 1 \) anyone type problem \? 2 \) problem fx motherboard \( non standard scsi implementation \) maxtor disk \? diagnostic software would help make determination \? 3 \) termination problem \? currently external syquest external xp60 chain xp60 end , internal termination using iifx terminator scsi filter installed internal drive run exact 2 1 2 years one previous disk crash requiring reformat \( year ago \) also symptoms disconnect external devices n't see scsi termination would issue course knows help would much appreciated forrest e iii nasa ames research center arc nasa gov
b clark nwu edu \( brian clark \) subject dsp cards fft 's , anyone \? nntp posting host acns nwu edu organization northwestern university lines 16 article rz uni karlsruhe de , rz uni karlsruhe de \( thomas \) wrote heavy duty image processing seriously underpowered mac 's \( mac iisi , example \) cpu time burned fft 's cards would allow us take away part load cpu \? dsp 56001 cards , example \? 'd callable think pascal , replace one two dimensional fft 's routines already existing program check national instruments nb dsp2300 uses texas instruments chip , true 32 bit floating point dsp 's pricey , however
b clark nwu edu \( brian clark \) subject high resolution adc mac ii nntp posting host acns nwu edu organization northwestern university lines 24 article ucs ubc ca , rob douglas douglas ecc ubc ca wrote article lll winken llnl gov charles e cunningham , cec imager writes would like buy 16 bit adc card mac ii rate least 100 khz , preferably 200 khz would prefer one good differential integral linearity , dma would plus national instruments , know vendor sells card \? instrutech corp nice looking 16 bit board run speeds want itc 16 \( \? \) n't dma , good sized fifo buffer samples instrutech reached \( 516 \) 829 , 929 \( fax \) n't know instrutech boards \( though plan check \) , need careful checking monotonicity n ratio many 16 bit boards ni boards clearly specified terms monotonicity , n ratio , accuracy , etc nb nb range freedom distortion 'd expect good , true 16 bit converter true spectral innovations boards , example
jas isi edu \( jeff sullivan \) subject iivx c650 upgrade question organization usc isi lines 10 distribution comp nntp posting host tigger isi edu get teh iivx c650 upgrade , include new sticker cover iivx identifier centris 650 \? jas jeffrey sullivan research scientist et al jas isi edu \( internet \) information sciences institute , 402 \( compuserve \) university southern california
higgins fnalf fnal gov \( bill higgins beam jockey \) subject pds vs nubus \( lc iii nubus capable \? \) nntp posting host fnalf fnal gov organization fermi national accelerator laboratory lines 24 article c5kzls kkb dartvax dartmouth edu , hades coos dartmouth edu \( brian v hughes \) writes mmiller garnet msen com \( marvin miller \) writes friend recently purchased lc iii wants know demon called nubus adapter pds slot \? lc family macs use pds cards able use nubus ah , \? technically hip macslinger tell us difference pds nubus \? impossible make gadget plugs pds ends nubus card cage \? least , marvin 's friend able locate one neither fundamental reason \? \) ' ' , , ' , \) \( \) \( \) zap ! \( \) \( \) bill higgins fermi national accelerator laboratory bitnet higgins fnal bitnet internet higgins fnal fnal gov span hepnet 43011 higgins
ayr1 cunixa cc columbia edu \( amir rosenblatt \) subject power supplies mac 512 's summary need nntp posting host cunixa cc columbia edu reply ayr1 cunixa cc columbia edu \( amir rosenblatt \) organization columbia university lines 13 'll able pick mac 512k 's nothing , power supplies dead anyone know pick pair ps 's cheap \( preferably mail order \) yes , uses planned one sold friend needs terminal connect via modem e mail account used net client run downloads printing also , latest system software usable suckers \?
netcom com \( brian \) subject help ! duo 230 problems organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 41 chess cats ucsc edu \( brian chess \) writes got duo 230 , i'm difficulties machine plugged wall adapter , put sleep , unplugged wall , woken , crashes 75 time \( 's nothing original system software machine \) battery plenty life think must power manager problem , n't know also , speaker occasionally makes high pitched hiss noise irregular , seems favor sleep restart commands 've duo 230 weeks suffer problems reinstalled system software twice effort combat problems thinking system software problems initially reinstalling system seemed help anymore occasionally try wake duo get solid screen horizontal lines screen freezes also get high pitched hiss occasionally startup 've called apple hotline \( 800 sos appl \) three times already finally agreed something astray duo 's screen would go dim hard drive spun put sleep problem occured twice apple sent box ship duo looked new york problem intermittent ca n't afford without duo time anyone problems \? brian netcom com aol compuserve , netcom online communication services san jose , ca
ravi konchigeri mongoose leland stanford edu subject lciii problems x xxmessage id kimball pc 316 stanford edu x xxdate fri , 16 apr 93 02 11 55 gmt organization stanford university x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d17 lines 24 article menudo uh edu , sunnyt coding bchs uh edu writes good idea horizontally formatted hard disk vertical position drive formatted horizontal position , completely compensate gravitational pull vertical position i'm saying hard disk fail tomorrow 6 months , take chance \? want detailed info problem , please think replies sum fact place hard drive side point sure work 'new' drives , namely 1 3 ht lps drives smaller platter also stable take chance \? 've running maxtor 1 3 ht 120 lps side flat year 've problems period like always say , never trust manufacturer like everything else life , right lane ends half mile ravi konchigeri mongoose leland stanford edu
ravi konchigeri mongoose leland stanford edu subject video cable options x xxmessage id kimball pc 316 stanford edu x xxdate fri , 16 apr 93 02 14 01 gmt organization stanford university x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d17 lines 11 discussion couple weeks ago using different cables achieve different resolutions quadra centris series company sold cables mentioned someone please e mail companies name , address , etc , info may relevant \? like everything else life , right lane ends half mile ravi konchigeri mongoose leland stanford edu
pitt edu \( \) subject duo 230 crashes aftersleep \( looks like apple bug ! \) organization university pittsburgh lines 2 test
seanmcd ac dal ca subject powerpc lciii powerpc \? organization dalhousie university , halifax , nova scotia , canada lines 47 article pyramid pyramid com , andrem mis pyramid com \( andre molyneux \) writes article hal gnu ai mit edu , mirsky hal gnu ai mit edu \( david joshua mirsky \) writes hi lciii recently heard interesting rumor heard lciii built slot powerpc chip true \? heard slot pds slot true \? thanks david mirsky mirsky gnu ai mit edu well , also lc iii popping top revealed one socket additional vram simm one socket 72 pin ram simm one socket flat pack fpu processor direct slot \( pds \) identical lc lc ii , additional set one side \( full 32 bit data path lc lc ii lacked 's guess board powerpc chip could made would fit pds , 's place , possible nubus pds powerpc upgrade , require logic board swap \? would interesting apple come nubus powerpc allowed use cpu 's 680x0 , like rocketshare guess 's getting bit fantastic ! wondering , since macweek reported developers powerpcs nubus card also , word machine arrivals estimated speed \? last heard , estimates around 3 4 times speed quadra native risc mode heard apple employee mumble something arrival powerpc machines much earlier date q1 94 , doubt 's true finally , powerpc developer 's cd 'mini available \? saw advertised developer 's university calendar , 'd like know 's interesting sean seanmcd ac dal ca
ucsvax ucs umass edu \( duncan \) subject n't repair sticky mouse button call apple ! ! ! organization university massachusetts amherst lines 52 distribution world nntp posting host deimos ucs umass edu x news reader vms news 1 24 x posted comp sys mac hardware misc consumers 've heard apple 's great new customer support program well , think sometimes real support apple computer users give another example , read march 15th issue macweek , ford described two year effort liam document bring apple 's attention problem certain defective mice random , switches mice stick position clicked second time , apparently regardless machine used system software involved reported problem mice manufactured malaysia fcc id 'll recognize sticky button symptom immediately mouse problem intermittent , 's subtle liam recently gave trying document problem , instead suggested people contact apple 's customer assistance center directly \( macweek 4 5 93 p 64 \) called apple march 23rd described defective mouse , eventually given case number \( \) told apple would replace mouse even though months warranty waiting three weeks , called back today wondering new mouse time , told apple decided serial number mouse \( \) within \( \) range apple willing replace , nothing nothing , , unless enough people complain problem make worth apple 's fix replace entire lot defective mice please , one mice , need help ! n't assume know causes problem \( lots theories \) start hacking around inside hundred dollar mouse instead , let apple please take five minutes call apple right united states 1 800 776 canada 800 665 2775 uk europe 33 1 49 01 49 01 australia 61 2 452 8000 japan pacific 81 3 8500 number n't toll free , call collect describe problem ask replacement mouse even refuse , insist register details case , including mouse 's serial number firm network managers user group leaders especially , please query user bases everyone ask friends colleagues please n't send mail post yet another sticky button report , call apple directly ! enough victims take trouble report well known problem , apple eventually forced respond apple continues find easy stone wall issue , n't expect offer support next , potentially serious mac defect uncovered bill sloan
jartsu hut fi \( jartsu \) subject help wanted ! monitor problems \( nec 3d iivi \) nntp posting host lk hp 15 hut fi reply jartsu vipunen hut fi organization helsinki university technology , finland lines 107 hello ! past days 've fighting get nec multisync 3d \( predecessor \) work properly internal video mac iivi vga adapter \( described dale posting quadra video \) works , minor occur , small enough prevent action screen visible clear stuff 3d well enough apple 13 rgb , first made adapter , got one local distributor nec adapters get , looks excellent time every radical changes screen \( opening palettes , large windows etc \) major sync picture either sideways totally even clear , horizontal line alignment accessing pull downs etc self made adapter , almost identical vga one , sense pins differ , sometimes impossible even boot picture clear enough shut menu adapter nec , everything well time , sometimes picture badly sideways sync completely lost nearly often self made one know , self made adapters always interference , one provided nec 's source interference \? 'll give pinouts whole mess , hope , least someone \( please try \) figure could best pin assignment nec 3d going make completely new cable maximum , soon someone figures pins arranged , especially yes , checked monitor defective , works perfectly well pc graphic adapters 1024x768 pixels also atari monochrome , using pinouts stuff 15 pin mini sub \( nec 3d \) 15 pin sub \( mac , least quadra \) 1 red video 1 red gnd 2 green video 2 red video 3 blue video 3 composite sync 4 gnd 4 sense 0 5 gnd 5 green video 6 red gnd 6 green gnd 7 green gnd 7 sense 1 8 blue gnd 8 nc 9 nc 9 blue video 10 gnd 10 sense 2 11 gnd 11 c sync v sync gnd 12 nc 12 v sync 13 h sync 13 blue gnd 14 v sync 14 h sync gnd 15 nc 15 h sync shell gnd shell gnd connection suggested apple vga svga , sense pins changed emulate apple 13 multisync \( self made adapter \) multisync \( mini sub \) mac \( sub \) 1 2 2 5 3 9 6 1 7 6 8 13 10 14 13 15 14 12 4 \( \) grounded 11 \( sync gnd \) connection measured adapter make nec 4fg emulate apple 13 \( adapter provided nec representative \) nec \( 15 mini \) mac \( 15 \) 1 2 2 5 3 9 4 shell gnd , 1 , 4 , 6 , 13 5 6 7 8 10 11 13 3 14 connected ! well , waiting solutions thanks ! jartsu
netcom com \( steven \) subject another res question ! organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 14 asked question week ago getting res monitor magnavox 17 wondering video cards supports also , anybody magnavox 's email id \( one \) maybe phone number \? please reply email n't read much news thanks , steve steven netcom com string , 's going blow us sky ! n't hang behind window blow sky \? \? \? string dom , \)
guykuo carson u washington edu \( guy kuo \) subject adding int hard disk drive iicx organization university washington lines 15 nntp posting host carson u washington edu keywords mac iicx , internal , hard disk drive , scsi yes , possible add second hard drive mac iicx internally definitely recommended procedure apple done equivalent cx upgrading quadra 700 power supply still stock cx 's able power two quantum lps drives , pli scsi accelerator , micron technologies 24 bit video board , daystar , new technologies overdrive 20 meg ram simultaneously added new mount drive attaching angle brackets drive tower internal scsi cable changed longer flat ribbon cable onto added extra connector midway final hd internally terminated drive motherboard final hd terminator resistor packs removed cooling problem scsi problems occur either pli scsi chain motherboard scsi hooked two internal hard drives works well , proceed wish
guykuo carson u washington edu \( guy kuo \) subject iisi clock upgrades organization university washington lines 8 nntp posting host carson u washington edu read one report brave soul 40 mhz clock higher speed clock oscillator 's outputs double throw switch allow different speeds mention attempts switch speeds fly si uses timing loops anything like quadra accessing floppy drive , dynamic switching havoc quadra must reboot clock speed significantly changed unable properly access floppy drive
james jim frazier cup portal com subject 5 25 mo sectors track \? organization portal system \( tm \) distribution world lines 8 iso ansi standard 5 25 magneto optical disc , many sectors per track \( disc revolution \) , many tracks per disc \? thanks , jim frazier compuserve com
rcs8 po cwru edu \( robert c sprecher \) subject help simm configuration organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 22 nntp posting host thor ins cwru edu someone please help understand current situation regarding simms \? iisi probably keep another 2 years would like add memory , ie go 5 mb 17 mb know need 4 x 4mb , 80ns faster simms simms , 30 pin 72 pin \? would simms get today usable 2 years newer , powerful system \? insight would appreciated thanks rob rob sprecher rcs8 po cwru edu
theory tc cornell edu \( julian \) subject recommendations removable storage media wanted organization cornell theory center lines 21 nntp posting host theory tc cornell edu article 1993apr14 kth se d88 jwa eufrat nada kth se \( jon wtte \) writes friends , buy 128 mb optical huh \? buy 128m optical , might lose friends \? smell bad \? \) stop worrying cartridge wear \( bernoulli \) crashes \( syquest \) serious note , heard tales syquest failures curious jon 's comments cartridge wear someone elaborate \? general consensus 128m reliable \? mostly concerned media failures , opposed drive mechanism failures julian behavior , mudd hall , cornell university , ithaca ny 14853 internet theory tc cornell edu bitnet uucp cornell ! !
push media mit edu \( pushpinder singh \) subject centris 610 video problem i'm also ! organization media laboratory distribution comp lines 27 computer set 256 colors certain operations done , particularly vertical scrolling window , horizontal white lines appear monitor \( generally always spare open windows \) lines accummulate operation continued window moved involved area screen moved away line disappear area screen problem observed monitor configured 16 colors 14 inch apple monitor 256 colors used suspect bad video ram chip cannot certain problem apparent since day 1 gotten worse i'm exactly problem , 's fine switch 16 colors smaller monitor configuration model centris 610 4 mb 80 hd , 512 vram , cards monitor mag mx15f 16 monitor adaptor \( resolution 832 624 \) discovered problem little ago plugging new mag monitor seems appear either scrolling window using alpha word enter return guess bad well really hope n't design flaw anyone apple listening \? pushpinder singh push media mit edu
tpeng umich edu \( timothy richard peng \) subject duo 230 crashes aftersleep \( looks like apple bug ! \) organization university michigan ann arbor lines 7 reply tpeng umich edu nntp posting host ccs itd umich edu originator tpeng ccs itd umich edu memory card installed 's one apple 's , may problem couple months release duo , memory manufacturers shipping duo memory cards w improper \( non self refreshing \) chips third party card , pull see sleep problem tim
tpeng umich edu \( timothy richard peng \) subject apple 14 monitor organization university michigan ann arbor lines 4 reply tpeng umich edu nntp posting host ccs itd umich edu originator tpeng ccs itd umich edu must faq first days 13 rgb ! ! ! ! better monitor , well , nec 4fg 3fgx pretty nice
sven guckes guckes math fu berlin de subject looking free share wares originator guckes x mail reader elm 2 4 organization free university berlin , germany distribution comp x news reader nn 6 4 13 13 lines 14 young u tokyo ac jp \( young hong \) writes looking ftp sites \( \) mac help lot driver source codes ftp sites information appreciated f q ! reference newsgroups comp sys mac apps , comp sys mac misc , comp sys mac system , comp sys mac wanted , comp sys mac hardware , comp answers , news answers subject introductory macintosh frequently asked questions \( faq \) sven \)
pitt edu \( \) subject poor owner iisi organization university pittsburgh lines 16 macintosh iisi , 3 40 , 80ns clock upgraded iisi works well 25mhz , however , work nubus adaptor disk even though read write 800k disk interestingly , upgraded iisi overcomes basically fighting system cpu never reduced 8 mater whether cache pretty useful use virtual memory system 7 20mhz 25mhz 32mhz cpu 5 46 \( 6 0 7 \) 6 81 \( 6 0 7 \) 8 83 \( 6 0 7 \) 8 74 \( \) 6 72 8 56 11 07 9 19 disk 1 44 1 50 1 56 1 49 math 5 72 11 27 \( fpu \) 9 36 8 84 1
wpi edu \( timothy mark collins \) subject performa 450 bundle 's 's organization worcester polytechnic institute , worcester , lines 42 distribution na nntp posting host wpi edu went framingham , , today , grabbed info sheet 450 bundle mere 1897 00 , get 25 megahertz 68030 microprocessor 4m ram 120m hard disk 1 4m floppy disk drive built support 256 colors , expandable 32 , 000 colors 1 expansion slot keyboard mouse 14 display 0 29 mm dot pitch extra sharp text graphics 640 x 480 pixels microphone speaker macintosh system 7 software performa computers version 7 1p ease , macintosh pc exchange , quicktime software global village teleport fax modem , send fax service support 1 year limited warranty 1 year home service toll free help line support pre installed software wordperfect works best collection heritage dictionary correct grammar apple special edition american online free trial membership electronic bill payment software spectre challenger scrabble editor 's note spec sheet list 's microprocessor , corrected n't want confuse anybody tim
jim jagubox gsfc nasa gov \( jim jagielski \) subject quadra scsi problems \? \? \? lines 34 reply jim jagubox gsfc nasa gov \( jim jagielski \) organization nasa goddard space flight center noah apple com \( noah price \) writes article shelley u washington edu , tzs stein2 u washington edu \( tim smith \) wrote attention mac quadra owners many storage industry experts concluded mac quadras suffer timing irregularities deviating standard scsi specification results silent corruption data used devices , including ultra modern devices although name devices , since fault 's fine , would name experts try track \? knows quoted written scsi director n't sound right n't quadras use \? , mac nothing scsi timing 's handled chip yup 's i'm kinda curious scsi problems 've encountered due cabling 've tried calling corp either gotten response huh \? yep nah would expect damaging state ment like would data back anyone want 's phone number \? jim jagielski 's gonna stiff say , jim jagubox gsfc nasa gov 'hey ! lama ! something , nasa gsfc , code 734 4 know , effort ! ' greenbelt , md 20771
magnus acs ohio state edu \( wu \) subject help ! test simms \? nntp posting host top magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 10 hello , got simms , least one work n't know software test simms thoroughly could rely ram test performed computer start installed dead simm lc lc ii , would strange music display screen \? need help ! thanks advance magnus acs ohio state edu
jdsiegel garnet berkeley edu \( joel siegel \) subject help need modem info duo 210 article agate organization university california , berkeley lines 27 nntp posting host garnet berkeley edu jmilhoan magnus acs ohio state edu \( jt \) writes hi alternatives express modem duo owners \( want go least 9600 baud \) \? every place town says back ordered , part reason want laptop mac use remote terminal wherever , really would hate wait 2 months get modem settle 2400 baud 're going like , memory serves , postings 've read newsgroup elsewhere indicate , repeat , internal modems duo besides express modem speed something modem using main cpu tasks , apple releasing details architecture , something i'm vague details , gist going third party internal duo modems i'm wrong , somebody please correct sorry bearer bad news joel joel siegel jdsiegel garnet berkeley edu jdsiegel ocf berkeley edu never able find feminism know called feminist whenever express sentiments differentiate rebecca west , 1913
jdsiegel garnet berkeley edu \( joel siegel \) subject 2 questions centris 650 's ram organization university california , berkeley lines 18 distribution usa nntp posting host garnet berkeley edu according \( seen several times \) postings dale adams apple computer , 610 650 require 80ns simms 60 ns centris 800 requires 60 ns simms pete think meant quadra 800 \( centris 800 probably would real nice machine \) \) yeah , needs 80ns 60ns joel joel siegel jdsiegel garnet berkeley edu jdsiegel ocf berkeley edu never able find feminism know called feminist whenever express sentiments differentiate rebecca west , 1913
distribution world robert n ward bmug org organization bmug , inc subject great deal ! lines 10 ti laser printers , want envelope feeder , sale , direct ti unbelievable price 45 ! call 1 800 847 extra paper trays many gray ones want move strange true planet bmug , firstclass bbs bmug message contained posting way reflect bmug 's official views
distribution world david schnider bmug org organization bmug , inc subject se pricing lines 7 value se \( \) 4 20 \? david planet bmug , firstclass bbs bmug message contained posting way reflect bmug 's official views
djk ccwf cc utexas edu \( dan keldsen \) subject sony 1304 rasterops \( si \) sale ! update ! ! article geraldo reply djk ccwf cc utexas edu \( dan keldsen \) distribution usa organization university texas austin , austin tx lines 64 nntp posting host tramp cc utexas edu originator djk tramp cc utexas edu hello fellow humans , net creatures 're interested merchandise , please e mail djk ccwf cc utexas edu i'm system moving single monitor system , two monitors cards sale nothing wrong pieces , i'm wanting conserve desk space , get info one screen 'd prefer sell people near austin surrounding areas \( within driving distance like hour away perhaps \) , ship n't live near problem n't keep original boxes monitors , i'm confident months full time service shipping room enable safely package monitors flip direction details mirror full page display \( monochrome \) w nubus card sold sony 1304 14 color monitor 's say \? got top ratings last year 's macuser report 's sony , trinitron , arguably best \( 'd rather argue point \) 's great monitor , great shape , i'm going bigger screen , although 'd like keep , finances n't justify still selling 599 \( bought originally including shipping \) , sell 475 \( plus shipping \) , make offer sounds unreasonable rasterops \( 24 bit accelerated , hardware zoom pan , 4 meg ram \) renamed months bought , board 13 monitors , providing accelerated 24 bit , hardware zoom pan , ntsc mode \( plug something like rasterops video expander output ntsc \) , 4 ram slots use 1 meg 4 meg simms ram , ram disk software included functions 4 meg ram included \( 1 meg simms \) selling 605 bottom line \( without ram add 100 \) , i'm asking 525 \( shipping included time , 's card \) original box packaging 'd actually prefer sell sony monitor card together , want , drop e mail make bundled offer items cheers dan keldsen djk ccwf cc utexas edu dan keldsen , ever djk ccwf cc utexas edu college student \? univ texas , austin b member fan billy death \? music composition , mm c max programmer \? consultant \( ask \) think c midi programmer \?
dleonard wixer bga com \( dale leonard \) subject trade mac se system color mac \? \? \? article wixer 1993apr16 organization real time communications lines 31 ok want get color mac n't care lc mac ii want go color machine 'd prefer trade present mac se system plus cash equipment color system right i'm full buy color system outright 's mac se system mac se 4 20 internal 800k drive 20 meg external external 800k drive imagewriter ii 4 color ribbon stuff go 've got 3 modems 'd willing give 1 9600 's 2400 system multitech ii \( 9600 data fax \) u robotics sportster \( 9600 data \) microcom qx 12k \( normally connect 2400 highest faster connected another microcom \) usr multitech brand new interested send e mail dleonard wixer bga com primary judy 's stamps \( misc topical stamps dogs dleonard wixer bga com cats baseball many many subjects secondary stamp information call tony leonard dleonard wixer cactus org \( 512 \) 837 business number ! ! !
extro ucc su oz au \( anthony pun \) subject hp printers rated low \? article extro organization sydney university computing service , sydney , nsw , australia lines 16 nntp posting host extro ucc su oz au gel ulaval ca \( eric \) writes i'm purchase laser printer mac read macuser buying guide special issue hp printers \( except \) rated low compared bargain priced printers \? pc , hp printers standard amongst printer manufacturers ps favorite would iiip iiip superseded 4m , one using work quality print , beating 300 dpi printers hands australia price 4m comparable iii series , hp trying get people buy new one ! ! ! anthony pun extro ucc su oz au
organization university maine system jon carr io91748 maine maine edu subject accelerator se lines 30 article 1993apr15 ifi uio , ifi uio \( christiansen \) says anyone netland experience accelerators se \? specially interested speed rate \( compared e g se 30 \) need new simms \( speed ns \) maximum ram upgrade compatibility \( mainly using framemaker \) use additional , big b w screen \( 15 21 \) install accellerator \( soldering \) price buy experience particular hardware , every month macworld add combined se accelerator video board item sells 1000 comes 25mhz 68030 68882 pair , eight simm slots , grayscale 21 monitor accelerator plugs se 's lone expansion port thus soldering however , need long torx wrench get case open \( 's really big deal \) sound like looking \? jon jon carr io91748 maine maine edu umaine '93 1993 ncaa champions ! 42 1 2 black bears ! ! n e go blue ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
organization university maine system jon carr io91748 maine maine edu subject pin map din cable \? lines 26 1 2 3 facing female plug end 4 5 6 7 8 anyone recognize \? 's little layout eight pin female plug connector used many mac peripherals problem problem problem printer \( cheap \) cables using configuration switch couple pins one end want use cheap cables b box anyone know pins get reversed creative editing internals box \? help would greatly appreciated jon jon carr io91748 maine maine edu umaine '93 1993 ncaa champions ! 42 1 2 black bears ! ! n e go blue ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
guykuo carson u washington edu \( guy kuo \) subject si clock reports summary request si clock poll keywords si , clock , upgrade , oscillator , chip article shelley organization university washington lines 18 nntp posting host carson u washington edu continuing collect user results produce comprehensive report iisi clock oscillator upgrades attempted modification please drop note details experience reports obtained , accurate numbers generate possible , please include following 1 \) top speed achieved 2 \) system configuration top mhz setting \) speed rating cpu \( last two digits printed cpu \) b \) presence additional heat sinks c \) nubus fpu cards used \) floppy drive functionality 800 1 4 disks 3 \) damage incurred modification 4 \) damage due higher speed use 5 \) average length time cpu \( e 8 hours day \) 6 \) unusual modifications usual procedure guy kuo guykuo u washington edu
d88 jwa hemul nada kth se \( jon wtte \) subject adb mouse ii \( ergo \) \? distribution comp organization royal institute technology , stockholm , sweden lines 16 nntp posting host hemul nada kth se jas tigger isi edu jas isi edu \( jeff sullivan \) writes apple supposed start new ergonomic adb mouse ii cpus sold \? far know , new mac came one yesterday \( got ergonomic keyboard , order three months , day , ! \) cheers , h jon w tte , h nada kth se , mac hacker deluxe clear disc , seek forever
csp1dwd mvs oac ucla edu \( csp1dwd \) subject duo parking hd heads nntp posting host mvs oac ucla edu lines 8 duo powerbooks seem park heads seconds inactivity builtin drive logic programmed via software , way tune timeout makes heads park think heads parked since seconds inactivity hear heads parking denis
subject snooper opinions keith whitehead sir office acme gen nz distribution world organization apple source bbs x mailer buggy , mean beta , test version lines 16 anyone use snooper similar diagnostic software comparisons reviews products would much appreciated thanks advance help cheers sir office acme gen nz dont get government pay !
salmon cwis unomaha edu \( david salmon \) subject help scsi woes mac iifx organization university nebraska omaha lines 16 according official documentation , failure use iifx terminator affect scsi bus performance also damage bus whether problem n't know scsi problems iifx since bought \( cannot connect three devices , fourth one causes major problems \) first thing try reformat drive someone elses system continue get errors probably drive formats fine would try format system fails scsi controller iifx needs repair replacement hope helps david c salmon salmon unomaha edu
hertz njit edu \( starman \) subject 's difference mac portable powerbook 100 \? distribution usa organization new jersey institute technology , newark , n j lines 24 nntp posting host hertz njit edu 've looking getting portable mac work 've eye pb 100 lately , 've seeing people old , 're selling 300 less pb 100s want know differences \? know portable heavier , pb100 n't internal drive 's need know portable support appletalk network connections \? 's cpu inside portable \? \( 68000 \? \) portable support system 7 \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? 's maximum memory capacity portable \? still get ram \( meaning use special simms \? \) kind internal hd use \? portable better screen \? thanx advance mike gaines name \? captain jean luc picard quest \? seek holy grail top velocity bird prey \? \? n't know ! ! ! ! hertz njit edu aol com
wis liverpool ac uk \( mr w sellers \) subject pds vs nubus \( lc iii nubus capable \? \) organization university liverpool lines 42 nntp posting host liv ac uk x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 bill higgins beam jockey \( higgins fnalf fnal gov \) wrote article c5kzls kkb dartvax dartmouth edu , hades coos dartmouth edu \( brian v hughes \) writes mmiller garnet msen com \( marvin miller \) writes friend recently purchased lc iii wants know demon called nubus adapter pds slot \? lc family macs use pds cards able use nubus ah , \? technically hip macslinger tell us difference pds nubus \? impossible make gadget plugs pds ends nubus card cage \? least , marvin 's friend able locate one neither fundamental reason \? think exist nubus expansion cages \( i'm sure 've seen advertised occassionally \) , think main problem cost much difference price say lc iivx unless need lots nubus slots worth bother \( course , may extra boxes expensive one buys expensive \) nubus technology n't special apple thing \( sneaky feeling licensed texas instruments \? \? \? \) problem building expansion box difference nubus pds nubus clever interface lots neat toys built make sure lots cards work together computer pds \( processor direct slot \) connections processor anything quick , 's cooperation may able get double pds slot adaptors try plugging 2 video cards , watch conflict ! course , extra electronics nubus slot makes expensive , guess apple n't put 's cheaper machines \? , yah pays yer money yah takes yah choice bill \( wis liverpool ac uk \)
fredm media mit edu \( fred g martin \) subject put ex syquest centris 610 \? organization mit media laboratory lines 54 've installed 5 25 tape backup c610 lot issues , answer questions article 1993apr16 1 cstp umkc edu cstp umkc edu writes pli 80m syquest drive wire drive id switch outside case connect switch \? \? computer tell internal drives \? probably want hard wire scsi id shorting jumpers put convenient number like 1 could cut hole back machine route id switch , go hassle \? probably wo n't needing frequently change id internal drive noticed drive lay part motherboard \( n't look closely , seem recall laying ram 's soldered onto motherboard \? would cause problems \? yeah , first installed tape drive little concerned 's problem , device designed fit fine n't reach back beyond rom ram vram simms , though one last question ! anywhere order faceplate cover \? drive 's front panel smaller space left case \( drive 's panel size clone 's cases \) cut hole plastic panel currently holding place \? special order parts mount device local apple dealer relevant parts 922 0358 blank bezel faceplate 922 cd rom carrier e , generic 5 25 device mounting bracket note apple 's unfortunate choice name slide bracket mount 5 25 device service techs talked said , oh sure , stock course thinking cd hold cd disk stick drive far tell , apple sell bezel faceplate already cut standard 5 25 device \( \? advertise machines able accept standard device 5 25 bay , provide faceplate \? \) sell cutout cd rom drive \( course \) , 's use i'm going hack extra bezel ordered make cutout tape drive , standard 5 25 device good luck syquest fred
kssimon silver ucs indiana edu \( kenneth steven simon \) subject help need modem info duo 210 summary hard get modem nntp posting host silver ucs indiana edu organization indiana university lines 34 jdsiegel garnet berkeley edu \( joel siegel \) writes jmilhoan magnus acs ohio state edu \( jt \) writes hi alternatives express modem duo owners \( want go least 9600 baud \) \? every place town says back ordered , part reason want laptop mac use remote terminal wherever , really would hate wait 2 months get modem settle 2400 baud apple n't put good product 'd gladly take business 8 bit ataris think situation express modem business 've mine order since january apple finally called last week tell second week may meantime , 've stuck without needed i'm sure plenty people bite back , citing sorts reasons apple right least justified , i'm consumer order modem 's product expect oh , well 's like 's limited computer biz remember miata came \? patch dolls \? well , want toy ! \) kenneth simon dept sociology , indiana university internet kssimon indiana edu bitnet kssimon iubacs
mentor cc purdue edu \( ken \) subject 32 bit system zone organization purdue university x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 32 week ago , posted problem se 30 20 megs true ram , yet set extensions use large amount memory \( total extensions \) system crash finder comes meant large amount fonts load , sounds , huge disk caches control panel apple 's memory control panel apple 's cache 64k , mode 32 , 32 bit addressing extensions work others increase memory used \( methods mentioned \) well , 's latest followup ran system profile got information memory info physical ram size logical ram size size low memory area 8k virtual memory inactive addressing mode 32bit mode use 32 bit system zone absent parity ram capable system heap true temporary memory support present memory support real tracked note 32 bit system zone absent could problem \? turn \? ideas \? anyone help \? ken
eric choi p5 f175 n2240 z1 fidonet org \( eric choi \) subject organization fidonet node 1 2240 175 5 association mac bbs , grand blanc mi lines 25 ku mondrian csufresno edu \( kin hung au \) date 13 apr 93 ku 07 22 05 gmt organization california state university , fresno ku message id zimmer csufresno edu newsgroups ku comp sys mac hardware ku ku hong kong , buy cheap pc 386 486 based computer ku however , experience buy macintosh last winter , ku back hong kong saw price mac classic hong kong ku price buy lc u ku ku recommended buy mac hong kong since mac popular ku hk ku ku kin hung au hello mr au , disagree regarding assessment macintosh hong kong mac sizeable share typesetting market , u local magazine , next magazine \( similar newsweek \) , uses mac extensively seen sir speedy franchises hong kong equipped mac based systems true , discount steep customers hong kong cannot buy gray market , mac sold thru mass like apple performa lin e point sale mac handled one exclusive distributor hand , always get pc clone earlier days , illegal clones apple iie perception mac popular hong kong simply hobbyists users find much cheaper go one basement stores sell pc clones probably illegal copies bios pay mac similarly cannot say lotus 1 2 3 surely well accepted hong kong sale low may places illegal copies lotus 1 2 3 bought 20 10 professional looking illegal copies manuals eric choi internet eric choi p5 f175 n2240 z1 fidonet org
ray netcom com \( ray fischer \) subject 68040 specs organization netcom san jose , california lines 43 wpi wpi edu \( lazer \) writes 'd appreciate greatly someone could e mail following \( know one , 's fine \) 1 \) specs 68040 \( esp compares pentium \) specs 68040 fill 500 page book highlights 32 bit address space w 32 bit data width 18 32 bit integer registers 8 80 bit floating point registers 8k capable caches , 4 way set typical 1 2 clocks integer instruction 5 clocks floating point multiply \( interesting aside 68040 multiply two 80 bit floating point numbers less time multiply two 32 bit integers \) 2 \) specs 68060 estimated cost , release date , etc multiple instruction figure 0 8 clocks per instruction typical \( guess \) motorola guys pretty bright , may less i'm interested speeds , systems run \( windows nt , risc , whatever \) , costs , bus info , register info technical info call motorola i'm typing hoping 68040 win yet another battle intel people i'm predicting 680x0 x86 lines reaching ends new experimental processors 64 bit data pathways schedule 8 32 instructions clock cycle sort trick ca n't really done cisc architectures finally saw details 586 pentium greatly impressed 've finally done work fpu get speed , otherwise 's going 2x speedup get 're using two integer units , larger caches , branch target buffer yes , know 're talking 100mhz processors big designing 100mhz board difficult really expensive priced memory chips lately \? ray fischer convictions dangerous enemies truth ray netcom com lies friedrich nietzsche
ray netcom com \( ray fischer \) subject x86 680x0 \? \? \( compare \? \) organization netcom san jose , california distribution usa lines 36 dhk ubbpc uucp \( dave kitabjian \) writes i'm sure intel motorola competing neck neck crunch power , given clock speed , rank following \( 1st 6th \) 486 68040 386 68030 286 68020 040 486 030 386 020 286 're , following fit list 68060 pentium powerpc 060 fastest , pentium , first versions powerpc somewhere vicinity clock speed doubling clock speed double overall processor speed \? fill 's 68030 mhz 68040 mhz computer speed partly dependent processor clock speed memory system speed play large role video system speed speed processor clock rates go , speed memory system becomes greatest factor overall system speed 50mhz processor , reading another word memory every 20ns sure , put 20ns memory computer , cost 10 times much slower 80ns simms roughly , 68040 twice fast given clock speed 68030 ray fischer convictions dangerous enemies truth ray netcom com lies friedrich nietzsche
bchase bigwpi wpi edu \( bret chase \) subject pds vs nubus \( lc iii nubus capable \? \) organization worcester polytechnic institute lines 44 nntp posting host bigwpi wpi edu article liverpool ac uk wis liverpool ac uk \( mr w sellers \) writes bill higgins beam jockey \( higgins fnalf fnal gov \) wrote article c5kzls kkb dartvax dartmouth edu , hades coos dartmouth edu \( brian v hughes \) writes mmiller garnet msen com \( marvin miller \) writes friend recently purchased lc iii wants know demon called nubus adapter pds slot \? lc family macs use pds cards able use nubus ah , \? technically hip macslinger tell us difference pds nubus \? impossible make gadget plugs pds ends nubus card cage \? least , marvin 's friend able locate one neither fundamental reason \? think exist nubus expansion cages \( i'm sure 've seen advertised occassionally \) , think main problem cost much difference price say lc iivx unless need lots nubus slots worth bother \( course , may extra boxes expensive one buys expensive \) nubus technology n't special apple thing \( sneaky feeling licensed texas instruments \? \? \? \) problem building expansion box apple uses ieee nubus 90 standard 32 bit bus \( got couple weeks ago \) stuff deleted hope helps , bret chase internet bchase wpi wpi edu macintosh ! \( 508 \) 791 smile ! wo n't kill ! wpi box \) \) \) \) \) \) \) \) 100 institute rd worcester , 01609 2280
vincent launchpad unc edu \( vincent \) subject accelerators se nntp posting host lambada oit unc edu organization university north carolina extended bulletin board service lines 8 3 4 week backorder , shipping opinions expressed necessarily university north carolina chapel hill , campus office information technology , experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu 152 2 22 80
feilimau leland stanford edu \( christopher yale lin \) subject mac iisi power limitations summary \? organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa distribution usa lines 17 readers , mac iisi considering upgrades \( cards , hard drive , etc \) tell power limitations 1 \) pds slot 2 \) hard drive power feed secondly , tell separate limit , instead , single limit combined \? please drop line know answers questions thanks , felix lin feilimau leland stanford edu
pearl tufts edu subject screen death mac plus 512 lines 22 organization tufts university medford , \( old \) mac 512k mac plus , problem screens blank , sometimes minor physical jolt \( inserting floppy internal drive \) , sometimes \( computer left goes blank \) replaced wires connecting logic boards video board , seemed first wires made screen come back worked , blanking returned anything \? need new power supply \? new crt \? new computer \? thanks advice ethan tufts university pearl tufts edu
zia castle ed ac uk \( zia \) subject help e mail address caere corporation organization edinburgh university lines 19 i'm looking e mail address caere corporation address caere corporation 100 cooper court los know address access find please could send e mail address zia uk ac ed castle thanking advance , zia
jbotz mtholyoke edu \( jurgen botz \) subject lw iig factory defaults organization mount holyoke college lines 11 nntp posting host mtholyoke edu laserwriter iig disappeared completely network , e 's name n't show zone \( print 's serial interface , tho ! \) seen discussion changing zone iig including ps code lets change zone maybe ps code use go back factory default settings \? feeling 's needed heal jurgen botz , jbotz mtholyoke edu machines respond finger south hadley , , usa request list items currently unix dead , long live unix available purchase
deguzman math uiuc edu \( deguzman \) subject non apple mini docks available \? reply deguzman uiuc edu organization calculus mathematica uiuc lines 10 boss considering purchase powerbook duo leaning towards 180 , math coprocessor \( mathematica \) , would get duo could find mini dock coprocessor third parties announced beast \? alan deguzman genius never understood 's time calculus mathematica disclaimer university calvin hobbes ca n't afford opinions 'the calvin
pilon aix02 ecs rpi edu \( j pilon \) subject iicx wo n't turn nntp posting host aix02 ecs rpi edu lines 14 anyone know would cause iicx turn hit keyboard switch \? one back machine n't work either way turn unplug machine minutes , plug back hit power switch back immediately sometimes n't even work long time remember hearing problem long time ago , logic board failure mentioned source problem true \? thanks , j pilon pilon rpi edu
bill hao ucar edu \( bill roberts \) subject upgrading pb170 memory organization high altitude observatory , boulder co 80303 distribution usa lines 8 one original powerbook 170 's \( 4mb ram \) find 4mb drag trying work , best way get maximum ram unit , 's going cost \? i'm hoping get latest best info real users posting group thanks advance , bill
tthiel cs uiuc edu \( terry thiel \) subject help ! test simms \? organization university illinois , dept comp sci , urbana , il lines 13 magnus acs ohio state edu \( wu \) writes hello , got simms , least one work n't know software test simms thoroughly could rely ram test performed computer start installed dead simm lc lc ii , would strange music display screen \? need help ! thanks advance magnus acs ohio state edu shareware think called available ftp sites umich sumex terry
david anthony guevara cup portal com subject centris 650 math coprocessor option organization portal system \( tm \) distribution usa lines 21 sorry faq n't normally read comp sys mac hardware purchasing couple centris 650 's configured systems follows eight \( 8 \) mb ram ethernet 1 mb vram math coprocessor option purchasing agent told math coprocessor option sent apple summary documentation prove ordered coprocessor option , i'm really sure needed thought '040 chip math coprocessor built apple math coprocessor chip keep speed '040 chip centris 650 \? concerned may set hardware bottleneck please send responses david anthony guevara cup portal com summarize enough interest thanks ! david guevara , internet david anthony guevara cup portal com
jtrascap nyx cs du edu \( jim trascapoulos \) subject put 1 44 floppy se \? organization university denver , dept math comp sci lines 24 solbourne com \( eric \) writes 've got mac se , 've got spare 1 44mb floppy drive 've seen se 's 1 44 floppy drive put floppy drive se get ork \? , \? thanks ! eric eric disclaimer claim dis solbourne com get planet ! ! sure thing 'll get fdhd upgrade kit apple , includes hd floppy drive , 2 different chips \( swim chip mentioned another post \) different floppy drive cable get apple kit dealer jim trascapoulos jtrascap nyx du edu size id wear \?
bchase bigwpi wpi edu \( bret chase \) subject 68040 specs organization worcester polytechnic institute lines 23 nntp posting host bigwpi wpi edu article o8 netcom com ray netcom com \( ray fischer \) writes wpi wpi edu \( lazer \) writes 'd appreciate greatly someone could e mail following \( know one , 's fine \) stuff deleted tried library \? since go wpi \( \) , go ak look first floor , professor posted ieee \( believe \) spec sheet 68060 around 10 pages long i'm sure library info request , 's matter finding hope helps , bret chase internet bchase wpi wpi edu macintosh ! \( 508 \) 791 smile ! wo n't kill ! wpi box \) \) \) \) \) \) \) \) 100 institute rd worcester , 01609 2280
pilon aix02 ecs rpi edu \( j pilon \) subject iicx wo n't turn nntp posting host aix02 ecs rpi edu lines 7 've changed battery thing \( shortly problem first happened \) 've noticed inordinate number bus errors lately j pilon pilon rpi edu
sdcc13 ucsd edu \( \) subject summary zyxel strings keywords zterm , firstclass , telefinder strings lines 90 nntp posting host sdcc13 ucsd edu write recently got zyxel u modem 's great , i'm still problems figuring strings use applications basically need strings z term , firstclass client , telefinder client 've able get firstclass z term working using another modem 's settings firstclass copying z term however , still problems z term , example , list first time try dialing starting problem cancel try , works fine telefinder even worse ca n't get even wake modem , anyone uses zyxel programs , 'd greatly appreciate sending setup strings use thanks advance ! cs ucla edu writes zterm , initially following d0 w0 set init string 's ! rsmith pearl tufts edu \( rod smith \) writes ca n't help firstclass telefinder , 've using zterm zyxel close two weeks 's zterm , set hardware handshaking bps rate 57 , 600 \( 've probably already done \) typed d0 w first line sets modem ignore dtr line \( necessary hardware handshaking , though , mac hardware handshaking cables \) second stores setting non volatile memory modem , 's default modem starts modem preferences dialog , modem initialization string set z0 , stored setting used \( useful starting zterm using something like fax software , change settings ways \) alternatively , could leave factory default way set zterm initialization string d0 , would accomplish thing modem always start zterm , programs n't modify settings z0 d0 would work even programs modify modem 's settings way sometimes forget turn modem launching zterm , way i'm assured correct dtr handling modem 's powered comparing strings commands reference guide , came 50 entered box zterm quick summary z0 reset modem user profile 0 l2 speaker volume 2 \( fairly quiet \) n2 ring volume 2 \( fairly quiet \) x5 display connect info according setting 5 \( see manual \) d0 assume dtr \( computer \) always s11 50 dial speed 50 \( fast zyxel handle \) firstclass , used string , addition s0 0 right s11 command , setup box disables auto answer function modem firstclass based modem setting supra 14 , changed mentioned string telefinder , based setting zoom hh setting changed string one used firstclass , everything seems work fine sorry took long get summary someone wants forward info mac reports directory sumex aim , might save newbie zyxel users like trouble setting strings , also save net redundant messages anyone else something add , feel free marcus ucsd edu marcus sdcc13 ucsd edu
aix02 ecs rpi edu \( hillel sims \) subject often simms bad \( mail order \) \? nntp posting host aix02 ecs rpi edu lines 19 hi everyone day , ordered vram chip new lciii mac connection sent overnight \( nice \) got installed , found n't work properly put computer thousands mode , bottom screen \( using new chip \) flickering fuzzy called i'm going return new one question , often thing happen simm chips general \? often find ordering chips large portion bad \? rarity \? first chip 've ordered experience area i'm curious anyone else type experience 's please email , people want , post summary thanks hillel sims rpi edu rensselaer polytechnic institute rot13 rotated 13 forward backward \? anonymous
css itd umich edu \( ben chuang \) subject tcp ip routing localtalk ethernet organization university michigan itd consulting support services lines 27 nntp posting host stimpy css itd umich edu story network 4 macs localtalk one ethernet card , currently connected next \( n't laugh got price mac iisi \) next connected internet slip running 9600 baud modem currently , telnet mac w ethernet next , telnet rest world want know sort hardware route telnet sessions localtalk macs next via ethernet mac heard , air n't trick software solutions would good , impression n't going immediate interest able get next telnet slip connection n't allow us assign ip numbers machines , everyone shares 1 number oh well thanks advance benjamin chuang itd css consultant university michigan a2 benjamin chuang um cc umich edu \( consulting \) css itd umich edu \( unix long messages \)
yfn ysu edu \( jerry sy \) subject boot ext hd power \? organization st elizabeth hospital , youngstown , oh lines 12 reply yfn ysu edu \( jerry sy \) nntp posting host yfn ysu edu external hard drive wish use startup disk problem , switch mac , boots internal hd , restart \( warm boot \) mac , boots external make boot directly external \? please email replies possible thanks advance jerry
access digex com \( captain nerd \) subject simm use nubus board anyone seen one \? organization express access online communications , greenbelt , maryland usa lines 29 distribution world nntp posting host access digex net summary anyone make \? anyone know i'm talking \? keywords simm nubus board ramdisk hello , remember running across ad back mac user world years ago , nubus board umpteen simm slots , used recycle old simms , upgraded memory n't remember made board , n't seen advertised latest mac magazines mentioned included software make simms board act like ram disk someone simms ca n't get rid use , hates waste , sounds like good idea anyone know board company i'm talking \? still business , anyone know get used one longer made \? help would greatly appreciated please e mail , save net bandwidth thanks , cap internet digex com aol compuserve , 105 cum absurdum est mus
feilimau leland stanford edu \( christopher yale lin \) subject mac iisi cache options organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa distribution usa lines 15 readers , found cache upgrade options mac iisi include following 1 \) ae quicksilver 2 \) daystar iisi 3 \) daystar iisi 4 \) iisi 64k cache 'd interested hearing opinions options alternative upgrade cpu accelerator 50 mhz ideas , \? felix lin feilimau leland stanford edu
ee rochester edu \( brian \) subject iivx c650 upgrade question distribution comp organization univ rochester , college engineering applied science lines 18 article jas tigger isi edu jas isi edu \( jeff sullivan \) writes get teh iivx c650 upgrade , include new sticker cover iivx identifier centris 650 \? ca n't say sure iivx c650 upgrade , wondered thing ordered lc lc iii upgrade turns upgrade actually entire cpu minus disk drives pull floppy hard drives old one , stick new one , 've got lc iii iivx c650 may thing might something look people unhappy apple sells macs pre packaged drives course , price quite bit higher without trade \( brian ee rochester edu
cph quake sylmar ca us \( charles hobbs \) subject color inks stylewriter organization quake public access , sylmar ca lines 9 know jet inc makes stylewriter deskwriter ink jet cartridges several colors pre filled cartridges color available anyone \( use one cartridge chance print color \? \) also , inks process colors \( , , yellow \) available refill cartridges \? thanks advance
bunt0003 student tc umn edu \( monthian buntan 1 \) subject apple give us confusing message \? nntp posting host student tc umn edu organization university minnesota lines 18 hi , anyone know apple ambiguous message c650 regarding fpu \? mac price lists 've seen , every c650 message fpu optional know 've discussed newsgroup c650 fpu built except 4 80 configuration would unclear issue price list \? i'm planning buy c650 8 230 cd pretty soon , i'm getting confused whether comes fpu say optional 's built \? please , anybody help understand game regards , thian
marcus marcus meridian demon co uk subject sony 1304s problems info please ! x xxmessage id meridian demon co uk x xxdate sat , 17 apr 93 22 48 46 gmt nntp posting host meridian demon co uk organization sound impressions x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d17 lines 33 anyone sony 1304s \? one , 's nice , however run 16 mode , picture wo n't go big end 1 gap either side , 5 top bottom suspect internal adjustment would fix anyone tried \? another problem sub brightness areas meant black \( main raster \) black real raster quite visible screen blanked severe , good screens used turn brightness contrast raster visible , real image virtually disappears ! raster size right use 1024 768 , 100dpi bit much ! oh , using rasterops card thanks marcus marcus meridian demon co uk marcus tel 081 852 marcus meridian demon co uk fax 081 244 used windows week , feel better
bunt0003 student tc umn edu \( monthian buntan 1 \) subject fax modem mac nntp posting host student tc umn edu organization university minnesota lines 36 article news2 cis umn edu staff tc umn edu \( \) writes hi thanks responded request info various kinds fax modem 'd like ask questions 1 advantages buying global village teleport gold cheaper brands like supra , zoom etc \? 2 heard supra zoom use software many complaints incompatibility problems supra \? kind incompatibility \? 3 decided buy teleport gold , possibility add voice option near future \? 4 anyone heard possible voice option supra offer coming summer \? 5 person mention new modem getting good reviews various mac magazines \? 6 want best , fastest , economically sound possible voice option , fax modem buy \? sorry posting many questions , think 're necessary promise repost answers 're already posted thanks much advance regards , thian since repost message second time , hope hear folks topic please reply regards , thian
alexander samuel mcdiarmid am2o andrew cmu edu subject centris 610 video problem i'm also ! organization sophomore , mechanical engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 40 distribution comp nntp posting host po3 andrew cmu edu reply push media lab media mit edu push media mit edu \( pushpinder singh \) subject centris 610 video problem i'm also ! date sat , 17 apr 1993 03 17 45 gmt computer set 256 colors certain operations done , particularly vertical scrolling window , horizontal white lines appear monitor \( generally always spare open windows \) lines accummulate operation continued window moved involved area screen moved away line disappear area screen problem observed monitor configured 16 colors 14 inch apple monitor 256 colors used suspect bad video ram chip cannot certain problem apparent since day 1 gotten worse i'm exactly problem , 's fine switch 16 colors smaller monitor configuration model centris 610 4 mb 80 hd , 512 vram , cards monitor mag mx15f 16 monitor adaptor \( resolution 832 624 \) discovered problem little ago plugging new mag monitor seems appear either scrolling window using alpha word enter return guess bad well really hope n't design flaw anyone apple listening \? pushpinder singh push media mit edu try finding init called basic color monitor clear probs centris 610 's vga type monitors know exists , somewhere copy , n't know never got around installing problem sony 1604
michael ameres f204 n2603 z1 fidonet org \( michael ameres \) subject x86 680x0 \? \? \( compare \? \) organization fidonet node 1 2603 204 even odd , forest hills ny lines 26 believe goes go 680060 powerpc pentium 486 386 286 resent article one think 50mhz 030 accelerator slightly slower 25mhz 040 accel , using system designed 030 , stands reason system designed 040 ie quadra \) would better overall 'd figure 040 030 2 5 along lines new powerpc stuff supposed run system level fast quadra , system 8 whatever allow 3 times speed 040 powerpc based systems wait 680060 think laps pentium pro life pro women michael ameres internet michael ameres f204 n2603 z1 fidonet org
thomas kephart kephart snowhite eeap cwru edu subject need help installing simms 700 , quick ! organization case school engineering lines 5 distribution world nntp posting host b62182 student cwru edu x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d20 x xxmessage id b62182 student cwru edu x xxdate sat , 17 apr 93 19 44 11 gmt could someone please send instructions installing simms vram jmk13 po cwru edu \? 's gotten 700 wants drop extra simms vram thanks n't reply , reply jmk13 po cwru edu \( joe \)
haase lanl gov \( peter haase \) subject upgrading pb170 memory organization los alamos national laboratory distribution usa lines 18 article 1993apr17 ncar ucar edu , bill hao ucar edu \( bill roberts \) wrote one original powerbook 170 's \( 4mb ram \) find 4mb drag trying work , best way get maximum ram unit , 's going cost \? i'm hoping get latest best info real users posting group well bill , 2mb soldered logic board 2mb ram expansion slot giving 4mb thing upgrade maximum ram remove 2mb expansion install 6mb expansion , giving total 8mb max 170 try calling techworks , memory vendors macweek , macworld etc peter haase internet haase lanl gov network manager los alamos national laboratory
tecot xenon stanford edu \( edward tecot \) subject computer engr vs computer science organization cs department , stanford university , california , usa distribution usa lines 21 professor mine said difference computer engineer computer scientist 5000 meaning engineer makes 5000 cs seriously though main difference cs people write programs people use , e database , graphics , word processors , etc , engineer writes machines control systems , e computer car , flight control system , computer controled devices , etc words cs writes software cse writes firmware generalizations part difference p 5000 joke scott part , bunch bunk 've got computer engineering degree , yet 've spent last 7 years writing software people actually use moreover , salary distinctions incorrect received 3 job offers upon graduation two jobs actually used hardware experience 7000 year lower ! advice decide classes projects interest , pick major allows take emt
meharg kits sfu ca \( william meharg \) subject centris 610 video problem i'm also ! organization simon fraser university , burnaby , b c , canada distribution comp lines 16 also suffer video configuration centris 610 , 4 160 , 1mb vram nec 4fg happens 832x624 , 8bit colour virtual memory scrolling occurs vram simms installed well removed seems 610 like 832x624 anyone problems mentioned conditions \? meharg sfu canada meharg meharg sfu ca sfu vancouver canada
b clark nwu edu \( brian clark \) subject high resolution adc mac ii nntp posting host acns nwu edu organization northwestern university lines 28 article b clark acns nwu edu , b clark nwu edu \( brian clark \) wrote n't know instrutech boards \( though plan check \) , need careful checking monotonicity n ratio many 16 bit boards ni boards clearly specified terms monotonicity , n ratio , accuracy , etc nb nb range freedom distortion 'd expect good , true 16 bit converter true spectral innovations boards , example reply , found instrutech information already specs \( use term loosely \) follows 16 bit converter , 14 bit accuracy 100 khz , 12 bit accuracy 200 khz specs n , monotonicity , linearity 8 multiplexed inputs sharing single , inputs samples time , conversion specs channel sample rate must used thus , two channels , 14 unknown quality bits 50 khz per channel poorer quality national instruments , sample rate 16 bit converter specs n , monotonicity , linearity 4 output channels converter price external converter box \( itc 16 \) , nubus interface board \( mac 23 \) , plus c driver software igor 's rather steep
athena mit edu \( fung \) subject wrong ram duo \? organization massachusetts institute technology lines 9 distribution world nntp posting host mit edu posts back , somebody mentioned duo might crash wrong kind \( non self refreshing \) ram duo crashes sometimes sleep , wondering software tell whether right kind ram installed thought problem battery connection thanks advance , fung
bm967 cleveland freenet edu \( david kantrowitz \) subject share one monitor w 2 cpus \? organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 6 nntp posting host slc4 ins cwru edu centris 610 want get ibm machine well save space desk , would like use one monitor , switch box anyone know way \?
bm967 cleveland freenet edu \( david kantrowitz \) subject centris 610 video problem i'm also ! organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 21 nntp posting host slc4 ins cwru edu push media mit edu \( pushpinder singh \) subject centris 610 video problem i'm also ! date sat , 17 apr 1993 03 17 45 gmt computer set 256 colors certain operations done , particularly vertical scrolling window , horizontal white lines appear monitor \( generally always spare open windows \) lines accummulate operation continued window moved involved area screen moved away line disappear area screen problem observed monitor configured 16 colors 14 inch apple monitor 256 colors used suspect bad video ram chip cannot certain problem apparent since day 1 gotten worse etc anyone problems given configurations \? \( would help eliminate design flaw explanation \)
chyang engin umich edu \( chung hsiung yang \) subject x86 680x0 \? \? \( compare \? \) organization university michigan engineering , ann arbor lines 55 distribution world nntp posting host leghorn engin umich edu article zeus ieee org michael ameres f204 n2603 z1 fidonet org \( michael ameres \) writes believe goes go 680060 powerpc pentium 486 386 286 think kind comparison pretty useless general processor good good computer designed around computer used designed purpose comparing processor speed pretty dumb increase clock speed increase speed among things mean say 040 faster 486 without giving operational conditions \? say running program uses lot functions knowing 040 functions building fpu 486 , say 040 still faster \? anyway , hope people decided upon wether computers good solely processor fast processor based name , one alway certain things processor speed restrict arguements , example , pure processor architectural issues one processor work well another based design , get somewhere discussions chung yang resent article one think 50mhz 030 accelerator slightly slower 25mhz 040 accel , using system designed 030 , stands reason system designed 040 ie quadra \) would better overall 'd figure 040 030 2 5 along lines new powerpc stuff supposed run system level fast quadra , system 8 whatever allow 3 times speed 040 powerpc based systems wait 680060 think laps pentium pro life pro women michael ameres internet michael ameres f204 n2603 z1 fidonet org
rvenkate ux4 cso uiuc edu \( ravikuma venkateswar \) subject x86 680x0 \? \? \( compare \? \) distribution usa organization university illinois urbana lines 40 dhk ubbpc uucp \( dave kitabjian \) writes i'm sure intel motorola competing neck neck crunch power , given clock speed , rank following \( 1st 6th \) 486 68040 386 68030 286 68020 good idea compare processor power n't make sense real world applications least totally different lines processors 're , following fit list 68060 pentium powerpc clock speed doubling clock speed double overall processor speed \? fill 's 68030 mhz 68040 mhz least x86 systems doubling clock speed increases performance 70 thanks much 'd appreciate hearing explanations experienced folks , ! p folks trouble replying lately reply command try typing address hand work thanks ! dave kitabjian \( kit \) vital statistics stuff deleted venkateswar rvenkate uiuc edu pun no' blessed form whit
rvenkate ux4 cso uiuc edu \( ravikuma venkateswar \) subject x86 680x0 \? \? \( compare \? \) organization university illinois urbana lines 46 michael ameres f204 n2603 z1 fidonet org \( michael ameres \) writes believe goes go 680060 powerpc pentium quite 66mhz pentium 65 specint92 , 57 specfp92 66mhz mc98601 50 specint92 , 80 specfp92 note important real world applications 486 far 486dx2 66 goes 32 specint92 , 16 specfp92 386 286 resent article one think 50mhz 030 accelerator slightly slower 25mhz 040 accel , using system designed 030 , stands reason system designed 040 ie quadra \) would better overall 'd figure 040 030 2 5 along lines new powerpc stuff supposed run system level fast quadra , system 8 whatever allow 3 times speed 040 powerpc based systems wait 680060 think laps pentium intel chips traditionally faster motorola equivalents although significance chip speed real world application performance something highly debatable pro life pro women michael ameres internet michael ameres f204 n2603 z1 fidonet org venkateswar rvenkate uiuc edu pun no' blessed form whit
rvenkate ux4 cso uiuc edu \( ravikuma venkateswar \) subject x86 680x0 \? \? \( compare \? \) distribution usa organization university illinois urbana lines 59 ray netcom com \( ray fischer \) writes dhk ubbpc uucp \( dave kitabjian \) writes i'm sure intel motorola competing neck neck crunch power , given clock speed , rank following \( 1st 6th \) 486 68040 386 68030 286 68020 040 486 030 386 020 286 numbers \? kind benchmark \? want , let start 486dx2 66 32 specint92 , 16 specfp92 're , following fit list 68060 pentium powerpc 060 fastest , pentium , first versions powerpc somewhere vicinity numbers \? pentium 66mhz 65 specint92 , 57 specfp92 powerpc 66mhz 50 specint92 , 80 specfp92 \( note 601 \) \( alpha 150mhz 74 specint92 , 126 specfp92 comparison \) clock speed doubling clock speed double overall processor speed \? fill 's 68030 mhz 68040 mhz computer speed partly dependent processor clock speed memory system speed play large role video system speed speed processor clock rates go , speed memory system becomes greatest factor overall system speed 50mhz processor , reading another word memory every 20ns sure , put 20ns memory computer , cost 10 times much slower 80ns simms clock doubled system n't doubling performance , quite significant maybe 70 increase performance besides , 0 wait state performance , 'd need cache anyway mean , uses processor runs speed 80ns simms \? note memory speed corresponds clock speed 12 5 mhz roughly , 68040 twice fast given clock speed 68030 numbers \? ray fischer convictions dangerous enemies truth ray netcom com lies friedrich nietzsche venkateswar rvenkate uiuc edu pun no' blessed form whit
chyang engin umich edu \( chung hsiung yang \) subject computer engr vs computer science organization university michigan engineering , ann arbor lines 54 distribution usa nntp posting host arno engin umich edu article tecot xenon stanford edu tecot xenon stanford edu \( edward tecot \) writes professor mine said difference computer engineer computer scientist 5000 meaning engineer makes 5000 p 5000 joke scott part , bunch bunk 've got computer engineering degree , yet 've spent last 7 years writing software people actually use moreover , salary distinctions incorrect received 3 job offers upon graduation two jobs actually used hardware experience 7000 year lower ! advice decide classes projects interest , pick major allows take emt well 0 02 worth advice grad student agree gentlemen wrote comment important thing pick ever interest learn much possible five years education field , though brief compare alot people , think kind question lot make right decision going electrical engineering opposed computer engineering cs \? go thru school , believe kind question irrelevant come believe choosing cs one like hardware choosing hardware one like program really injustice building computer making useful something everything inseparable cs , ce , ee part really great discipline depend advice n't limit , make decision based major give best opportunities learn course depends curriculum school would choose major allows explore much possible beside , n't know school would make student choose major year hey may interested field decided learn making computers case , suffer little go grad school money n't look averages , good , going earn money anyone else superstar programmer , earn millions like wise computer designers chung yang
guykuo carson u washington edu \( guy kuo \) subject quadra 700 memory install faq organization university washington lines 69 nntp posting host carson u washington edu summary instructions quadra 700 memory installation keywords memory , quadra , 700 , install turning faq violate quadra 700 warranty install memory 1 \) insert usual disclaimer 2 \) remove top lid machine see floppy disk hard drive mounted plastic tower follow usual anti static precautions course make sure machine unplug wall monitor power supply cords back mac 3 \) remove power supply pulling plastic tab tower forward simultaneously pulling power supply straight tab piece plastic left posterior aspect tower extends downward hook power supply may also feel shaped piece right portion power supply leave alone plastic tab tower need release 4 \) look rear tower assembly see flat ribbon scsi connector hard drive , power cable flat ribbon cable leading floppy drive disconnect motherboard hard drive power cable connector tab must squeezed release 5 \) unplug drive activity led clear plastic mount 6 \) look posterior , cylindrical section plastic tower phillips head screw base remove , taking care drop case bit glue screwdriver helpful 7 \) remove tower assembly pulling plastic tab right side tower tab prevents tower sliding slide entire tower assembly 1 cm lift tower assembly straight case 8 \) congratulations , gained access machine 's simm slots 9 \) six big slots vram one usually must install six gain useful video modes simms \( ram vram \) installed chips facing front motherboard four smaller sockets front ram simms install simms sets four sockets sure seat simms squarely firmly fully upright position 10 \) reinstall tower assembly first placing right wall tower right wall case tower assembly 1 cm posterior intended position lower tower assembly place maintaining contact right wall case fully , slide tower assembly clicks place 11 \) motherboard ends cables forget floppy drive cable 12 \) replace phillips head screw 13 \) drop power supply straight place clicks 14 \) plug hard drive activity light back clear plastic mount guy kuo guykuo u washington edu
brucet extro ucc su oz au \( bruce \) subject help ! duo 230 problems nntp posting host extro ucc su oz au organization sydney university computing service , sydney , nsw , australia lines 76 netcom com \( brian \) writes chess cats ucsc edu \( brian chess \) writes got duo 230 , i'm difficulties machine plugged wall adapter , put sleep , unplugged wall , woken , crashes 75 time \( 's nothing original system software machine \) battery plenty life think must power manager problem , n't know also , speaker occasionally makes high pitched hiss noise irregular , seems favor sleep restart commands 've duo 230 weeks suffer problems reinstalled system software twice effort combat problems thinking system software problems initially reinstalling system seemed help anymore occasionally try wake duo get solid screen horizontal lines screen freezes also get high pitched hiss occasionally startup 've called apple hotline \( 800 sos appl \) three times already finally agreed something astray duo 's screen would go dim hard drive spun put sleep problem occured twice apple sent box ship duo looked new york problem intermittent ca n't afford without duo time anyone problems \? brian netcom com aol compuserve , netcom online communication services san jose , ca yes , quite number people seems discussions 've \( included \) bought machine couple weeks ago well started experience problems apple australia via dealer said problem number potential causes faulty applications , faulty third party hardware \( modems , memory etc \) , system software , pram corruption power manager corruption , duo hardware none relevant case except last two maybe \( applications running , system software installed , additional hardware \) found clearing pram appears help least \( hold command option p r startup \) unfortunately problem returns suggesting pram corrupted something \( system software bug \? n't non issue inits system \) apparently power manager reset holding reset interrupt buttons powering apple 's advice since duo interrupt button i'm sure mean case may also help someone decipher apple 's advice beyond apple suggest follow technical procedures check hardware duo since many others appear problem would seem system software bug introduced somewhere along line quite recently since seems recent duo 230 purchasers problem comments others boat welcome , particularly apple duo engineers \) cheers brucet bruce sydney australia brucet extro ucc su oz au complex problems straight forward , easy understand wrong answers
aris \( aris \) subject pixel disappear powerbook 140 screen organization michigan state university lines 10 nntp posting host pss msu edu keywords powerbook , 140 , pixel , screen pixels pb 140 display disappear intermittently particular place random anybody suggestions would appreciate e mailings thanks aris pss msu edu \( beware 3 \) nnnnn u nnnnn
d88 jwa hemul nada kth se \( jon wtte \) subject x86 680x0 \? \? \( compare \? \) organization royal institute technology , stockholm , sweden lines 34 nntp posting host hemul nada kth se news cso uiuc edu rvenkate ux4 cso uiuc edu \( ravikuma venkateswar \) writes quite 66mhz pentium 65 specint92 , 57 specfp92 66mhz mc98601 50 specint92 , 80 specfp92 interesting comparision fast clock cycle chips get alpha way slow 66 mhz , blazes 200 mhz 486 far 486dx2 66 goes 32 specint92 , 16 specfp92 68040 \( soon \) available 40 mhz version , making comparable 486dx2 80 intel chips traditionally faster motorola equivalents although significance chip speed real world application performance something highly debatable think one turned around faster clock cycles less power behind cycle mention intel instruction stream byte oriented \( longest intel instruction 15 bytes odd number \) makes hard intelligent memory subsystem cheers , h jon w tte , h nada kth se , mac hacker deluxe article printed 100 recycled electrons
blast nntp crl com \( tim keanini \) subject attn 160 , , 180 duo owners ! ! ! lines 11 nntp posting host crl com summary buzzing keywords buzz careful plug external monitor external speaker make sure power cords strip n't take chance bad audio buzz caused ground loop way getting rid loud buzz make sure common ground make sure power cords going strip outlet assure common ground tim keanini sound designer broder com software blast crl com
slang bnr ca \( steven langlois \) subject increasing number serial ports reply slang bnr ca \( steven langlois \) organization bell northern research ltd lines 15 anyone know devices available mac increase number serial ports available use simultaneously \? would like connect 8 serial devices mac application working must able access one independently device exists , limits number serial devices use \? information appreciated steven langlois slang bnr ca
freenet carleton ca \( david hughes \) subject sound recording mac portable \? reply freenet carleton ca \( david hughes \) organization national capital freenet lines 14 anyone know hardware required could find sound recording mac portable thanks david hughes freenet carleton ca secretary national capital freenet
rs6000 cmp ilstu edu \( eric behr \) subject asante en sc hangs scsi devices reply behr math ilstu edu \( eric behr \) organization central illinois surfing club lines 31 hooked mac iisi relatively old \( 1 year \? \) asante en sc adapter 10base connection works like charm installed newest drivers asante 's ftp server problem begins attach one device scsi chain specifically drive power drive , mac mac tests memory , etc happy mac face normally shows , power light en sc goes , boot process stops use network , external drive , makes asante box pretty much unusable n't look like purely electrical scsi problem , turn drive second late , n't get noticed initial scsi polling , mac boots normally adapter works , even though hard disk powered connected mac never failed boot internal drive \( 've year \) tried changing scsi id 's en sc disk several permutations changing order devices , e en sc head tail chain external terminator \( devices internal ones \) , e removing internal resistors hard disk trying another en sc box trying another identical drive trying several different scsi cables anybody seen \? importantly , anyone solution \? thanks lot e eric behr , illinois state university , mathematics department behr math ilstu edu behr ilstu bitnet \( please avoid ! \)
swiers chaos cdc com \( aaron swiers \) subject increasing number serial ports organization control data systems inc lines 16 slang bnr ca \( steven langlois \) writes anyone know devices available mac increase number serial ports available use simultaneously \? would like connect 8 serial devices mac application working must able access one independently applied engineering makes nubus card called board contains 4 serial ports , believe used simultaneously i'm user one , installed couple people work \( i'm technician \) hope helps aaron swiers control data corporation , arden hills mn swiers chaos cdc com electrical engineering student , u nd swiers plains nodak edu
eric choi p5 f175 n2240 z1 fidonet org \( eric choi \) subject educational pricing gray market organization fidonet node 1 2240 175 5 association mac bbs , grand blanc mi lines 17 eu apple sales mail order result mail eu order companies obtain machines grey market eu eu market supplied machines authorised resellers eu machines sell come state eu affairs either accidentally get eu better price apple either case often obscure eu serial protect identity result warranty eu void ordered several macs different mail order companies absolutely zero problem dig around find true gray market dealers sell macs authentic serial numbers untouched value added dealers \( nothing vat , flame please \) legitimate cda unfortunately one replace serial number prevent apple tracing authorized dealer sold machine cda eric choi internet eric choi p5 f175 n2240 z1 fidonet org
skok itwds1 energietechnik uni stuttgart de \( holger skok \) subject often simms bad \( mail order \) \? organization inst f u \( \) , u stuttgart , frg lines 14 nntp posting host itwds1 energietechnik uni stuttgart de hi , got glimpse side , talking technician place recently bought mac guy told stopped shipping simms customers install babies get easily static electricity claim hsk sie das , das , man , es , das , den ein lied , ein lied , oh , ich , auf das h heine
skok itwds1 energietechnik uni stuttgart de \( holger skok \) subject x86 680x0 \? \? \( compare \? \) organization inst f u \( \) , u stuttgart , frg lines 19 distribution usa nntp posting host itwds1 energietechnik uni stuttgart de article news cso uiuc edu rvenkate ux4 cso uiuc edu \( ravikuma venkateswar \) writes stuff deleted besides , 0 wait state performance , 'd need cache anyway mean , uses processor runs speed 80ns simms \? note memory speed corresponds clock speed 12 5 mhz stuff deleted calculate figure \? 'd assume even personal computers board designers would use bank switching \( \) access speed missing something \? hsk sie das , das , man , es , das , den ein lied , ein lied , oh , ich , auf das h heine
horton cbs umn edu \( robert horton \) subject macs suck ! buy pc ! nntp posting host cbs umn edu organization university minnesota x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 lines 3 tests suck ! post real message ! \)
da228 cleveland freenet edu \( charles g williams \) subject anyone problems ibm drives machines \? organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 24 reply da228 cleveland freenet edu \( charles g williams \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu hi , subject line says system acts weird times sudden system corrupt , boot blocks get , etc really big problem could n't even format drive properly installed hdt 's driver things got better reinstall system could incompatibility exist quantum external drive i'm looking pure hardware solution 's virus , bad software , etc could bad scsi cable \? ibm \( 80 \) drive \? thanks , chuck chuck williams cs intern pacific northwest laboratories da228 cleveland freenet edu cg williams ccmail pnl gov
rvenkate ux4 cso uiuc edu \( ravikuma venkateswar \) subject x86 680x0 \? \? \( compare \? \) distribution usa organization university illinois urbana lines 28 skok itwds1 energietechnik uni stuttgart de \( holger skok \) writes article news cso uiuc edu rvenkate ux4 cso uiuc edu \( ravikuma venkateswar \) writes stuff deleted besides , 0 wait state performance , 'd need cache anyway mean , uses processor runs speed 80ns simms \? note memory speed corresponds clock speed 12 5 mhz stuff deleted calculate figure \? 'd assume even personal computers board designers would use bank switching \( \) access speed missing something \? previous article referred fact could use 20ns simms 50mhz machine , could use 80ns simms slower machines pointed could use 20ns simms 50mhz machine , ca n't use 80ns simms anything faster 12 5 mhz machine bank switching caches considered either example \( although would help memory access \) hsk venkateswar rvenkate uiuc edu pun no' blessed form whit
ubs carson u washington edu \( university bookstore \) subject apple give us confusing message \? article shelley organization university washington , seattle lines 37 nntp posting host carson u washington edu article news2 cis umn edu bunt0003 student tc umn edu \( monthian buntan 1 \) writes hi , anyone know apple ambiguous message c650 regarding fpu \? mac price lists 've seen , every c650 message fpu optional know 've discussed newsgroup c650 fpu built except 4 80 configuration would unclear issue price list \? i'm planning buy c650 8 230 cd pretty soon , i'm getting confused whether comes fpu say optional 's built \? please , anybody help understand game regards , thian get centris 650 cd configuration , getting mac 68rc040 processor built math coprocessor support understanding optional fpu refers option purchasing centris 650 4 80 without fpu one configurations fpu apple offer upgrade non fpu system become fpu system , unclear whether '040 processor non fpu system \( 68lc040 \) replaced 68rc040 supplied another vendor apple send memo one point centris 610 , comes non fpu 68lc040 processor cannot upgraded support fpu pin configurations two chips apparently match cannot swap one another \( , according apple 's memo \) hope helps kevin university book store , university washington buyer uw apple computers education program
snakemail hut fi \( petri \) subject diy phonenet , midi adapt macrecorder nntp posting host lk hp 18 hut fi organization helsinki university technology , finland distribution comp lines 7 remember seeing complete instructions making phonenet adapters , midi adapters macrecorder short search mac archive info mac failed see pointers \? petri hut fi supreme court ruling illegal drug ! hut computer programmer steals minds youths new tank game ! pa telephone standards rethought new addictive computer game !
ubs carson u washington edu \( university bookstore \) subject ghost apple 12 color user insane ! ! organization university washington , seattle lines 42 nntp posting host carson u washington edu article netcom com betts netcom com \( jonathan betts \) writes dear netters , sister apple 12 color display hooked lc problem annoying , horizontal , ghost like stripe vertically per second 1 cm high grave danger going insane ideas might might cure \? joe betts betts netcom com ps pick display \( thought might rfi lc \) seems get worse ! caused two one two things first easiest fix interference something around monitor , another monitor electrical device try moving system another location fix problem second , scan rate monitor , tends room lights cause interference seeing try turning lights room \( \) around system see helps , try moving system somewhere else third solution would get 14 apple color display problem 12 color try calling apple 's new support number \( u \) 1 800 sos apple number anyone questions regarding macintosh setup compatibility went effect extended support monday , april 5 , 1993 good luck kevin , buyer , university book store university washington , seattle apple computers education program
d88 jwa hemul nada kth se \( jon wtte \) subject increasing number serial ports organization royal institute technology , stockholm , sweden lines 29 nntp posting host hemul nada kth se 1993apr18 bnr ca slang bnr ca \( steven langlois \) writes device exists , limits number serial devices use \? many nubus slots \? applied engineering something called , card 4 serial ports get comms toolbox \( addition built ones \) also comes software fooling applications open ae port think open built port also expensive card dma \( better performance \) think , someone else , card handles 8 ports simultaneously said , nubus , 're green learn use comms resource manager get various installed cards cheers , h jon w tte , h nada kth se , mac hacker deluxe never hide menu bar might go change color color background , never hide menu bar tog
cheshire oxy edu \( david j \) subject nanao compatible mac video cards \? summary get monitor , drive \? keywords 21 monitor , 24 bit video , macintosh organization programmers say ! lines 15 anyone know nanao compatible popular mac video cards \? get brand new one , cheap , tempted , waste time ca n't drive using standard video card i'm subject , 's everybody 's 21 color monitor 've heard good things nec , course , always reliable old macintosh 21 display , experiences david j cyberpunk software definition happiness famous financial ability indulge every form excess calvin
subject lw iig factory defaults robert grapes r grapes massey ac nz organization massey university x xxdate mon , 19 apr 93 08 03 45 gmt x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d17 lines 21 article 762 slab mtholyoke edu jurgen botz , jbotz mtholyoke edu writes laserwriter iig disappeared completely network , e 's name n't show zone \( print 's serial interface , tho ! \) seen discussion changing zone iig including ps code lets change zone maybe ps code use go back factory default settings \? feeling 's needed heal following postscript works laserwriter iig 's version 2 roms ! 0 begin true begin realtime 10000 add dup realtime le pop exit loop quit rob
ferch ucs ubc ca \( les ferch \) subject apple give us confusing message \? organization university british columbia lines 22 nntp posting host swiss ucs ubc ca news2 cis umn edu bunt0003 student tc umn edu \( monthian buntan 1 \) writes anyone know apple ambiguous message c650 regarding fpu \? mac price lists 've seen , every c650 message fpu optional know 've discussed newsgroup c650 fpu built except 4 80 configuration would unclear issue price list \? perhaps reason simple maybe marketing people put together brochures price lists n't clear fpu issue afterall , apple 's literature always 100 correct funny one noticed recently brochures macs cd capability refer auto inkjet feature read auto inject feature \( correct brochures 've seen apple \) since correct older brochures , guess someone edited copy , saw inject thought typo changed familiar word inkjet hmmm , would \? printer built cd player \? way writing information cd \? \) \)
netcom com \( \) subject video display organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 34 mac monitor displays 20 vertical lines use means either display memory goes wrong monitor bad video card bad checked monitor , works fine mac checked video card , 's also fine replaced rams , still n't give right answer hence assume something wrong part motherboard n't know hardware architecture macintosh anyone tell 's problem \? \? \? \? 's mac iicx many thanks advance netcom netcom com name , born , taiwan , r c work phone 415 688 company failure analysis associates , inc 149 commonwealth drive , p box menlo park , ca 94025 philosophy , way !
dpb sdchemw2 ucsd edu \( doug p book \) subject stereo sound problem \( \? \) mac games organization uc san diego chemistry lines 62 distribution world reply dpb sdchemw2 ucsd edu \( doug p book \) nntp posting host sdchemw2 ucsd edu keywords sound stereo , quadra , 900 , powerbook , 170 hi think problem stereo sound output quadra 900 , totally sure roomate problem powerbook 170 info experience would greatly appreciated hook quadra home stereo system , following types sounds \( mono , far tell \) play fine speakers system beeps \( already provided ones indigo ones record \) armor alley spectre ho ! , following games play left channel lemmings world \( awesome game , btw \) 4 0 still , stereo system beeps play stereo , speakers \( one i'm specifically beginning , roommate downloaded ftp site \( sumex \? \) \) symptoms 170 \( ca n't run n't color \) 're running system 7 1 anyone lemmings three games mentioned get sound speakers mac ii class , quadra , lc , powerbook 140 greater , centris , se 30 , etc \( stereo \) machine \? used mac ii , sort lemmings playing stereo machine , left channel \( could mistaken , though problem quad 900 's pb 170 's , wondering system beeps still play stereo \? n't problem machines , wonder 4 games apparantly written support one channel stereo could use mono sounds mono sound would least come speakers \( like spectre , etc \) \? quadra 900 's powerbook 170 's roms \( knowledge \) , maybe rom problem \? \( , though , would n't system 7 1 patch problem \? \) thanks help provide ! doug book dpb sdchemw2 ucsd edu
kelleyb austin ibm com \( kelley boylan \) subject screen death mac plus 512 originator kelleyb kelleyb austin ibm com reply kelleyb austin ibm com organization ibm austin , powerpc lines 29 \( old \) mac 512k mac plus , problem screens blank , sometimes minor physical jolt \( inserting floppy internal drive \) , sometimes \( computer left goes blank \) replaced wires connecting logic boards video board , seemed first wires made screen come back worked , blanking returned anything \? need new power supply \? new crt \? new computer \? problem 512 long time ago joints motherboard \( \) fixed turns continuous heating cooling caused \( ring shaped \) cracks develop solder , effectively cutting video circuitry 're solder jockey might want someone else took mine electrical engineer buddy 20 minute job , tops kelley thomas kelley boylan , powerpc , ibm austin , kelleyb austin ibm com buy pay opinions
berkeley edu \( jose l \) subject wrong ram duo \? organization u c berkeley lines 53 distribution world nntp posting host berkeley edu macweek article describing duo ram situation \( w permission hope ok \) jose bad ram brings duos \( random access memory boards apple macintosh powerbook duos \) macweek v7 , n7 \( feb 15 , 1993 \) 132 copyright coastal associates publishing l p 1993 raines cohen austin , texas third party memory expansion cards powerbook duos depart apple specs ways could cause crashes , data loss problems technology works inc , ram network vendor based , last week issued warning three problems said found duo ram products competing vendors , declined identify vendors apple spokeswoman confirmed problems exist self refresh duos require kind dynamic ram called , system sleeps technology works said vendors sold duo cards dram , cause system lose data fail wake sleep leading memory manufacturers include letter v part number stamped self refreshing chips refreshing chips instead l , according techworks chip label , however , may tell whole story newer technology wichita , kan , said uses refreshing chips adds circuitry keep refreshed duo sleeps speed ram card vendors put 80 nanosecond dram duo cards rather 70 nanosecond type 230 requires , technology works said however , chips labeled 80 85 nanosecond certified manufacturer run higher speed kingston technology corp fountain valley , calif , said offers duo ram cards 80 nanosecond chips , duo 210 , compatible slower chips space technology works charged apple officials confirmed third party cards large fit properly , forcing corner duo keyboard preventing system starting normally duo dock lifetime memory products inc huntington beach , calif , said originally shipped cards problem since offered customers free upgrades cards fit
d88 jwa hemul nada kth se \( jon wtte \) subject stereo sound problem \( \? \) mac games keywords sound stereo , quadra , 900 , powerbook , 170 organization royal institute technology , stockholm , sweden lines 26 nntp posting host hemul nada kth se network ucsd edu dpb sdchemw2 ucsd edu \( doug p book \) writes , following games play left channel still , stereo system beeps play stereo , speakers mac sound hardware diverse macs play stereo mix output \( se 30 instance \) others play stereo left channel speaker , truly mono \( like lc \) developers know stuff played left channel guaranteed heard , right channel n't send data , send data left channel \( first , course \) cheers , h jon w tte , h nada kth se , mac hacker deluxe engineering work \? science work \? management work \? liberal arts want fries \? jesse n
eff org \( helen rose \) subject duo 230 slowdown problems nntp posting host eff org organization electronic frontier foundation lines 33 i'm system network admin one users duo 230 \( specifications \) slowdown problems leaving duo several hours causes slow take 10 15 seconds change applications time completely hung reboots , problem goes away \( \) seems system getting wedged configuration 's installed system 7 1 rebuilt desktop neither helped 's possible 's network related , uses checks email every 10 minutes \( ethernet \) n't checked see problem occurs \( 's docked time \) little non apple inits , n't want start rest unless know might really problem n't tried pram , advised next anyone ideas , 'd love hear 'd call apple , 've found 're best call week \( 's sunday evening \) powerbook duo 230 16 120 12mb ram card tech works replace non self refreshing 8mb card using system enabler 1 0 1 express modem \( including latest software \) apple dealer keyboard replacement helen rose com , eff org kapor enterprises , inc email eff eff org eff info electronic frontier foundation flames systems networks administration women messed eff org
rcs8 po cwru edu \( robert c sprecher \) subject pc syquest mac \? \? organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 13 nntp posting host thor ins cwru edu possible , ie via creative cable splicing whatever , hook syquest 44mb removable drive mac \? difference guts drive cable differences \? thanks rob rob sprecher rcs8 po cwru edu
jonathan rahul net \( jonathan \) subject non apple mini docks available \? nntp posting host bolero reply jonathan mecca com organization electric power research institute x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 13 deguzman \( deguzman math uiuc edu \) wrote boss considering purchase powerbook duo leaning towards 180 , math coprocessor \( mathematica \) , would get duo could find mini dock coprocessor third parties announced beast \? believe e machines might produce something nature jonathan electric power research institute visualization ave internet jonathan mecca com palo alto , ca telephone 415 855 2888
wgw netcom com \( william g wright \) subject se rom keywords roms , grayscale , select 300 organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 32 bought select 300 rushed home print grayscale pictures kids , discovered grayscale \( \) available using se even running '030 cpu wo n't see printer 's docs , apple rep n't mention users group either seems se roms wo n't support features okay , guess somehow known case let buyer beware , huh apple \? may , thinking problem i'm puzzled ca n't rom made software write software living \( unix platforms \) n't understand ca n't done responses 've gotten asked far n't mode32 , somesuch piece soft ware , fix anyway , hoping someone knowledgeable mac internals could set straight simply impossible mac se print grayscale , could someone armed enough info little pro experience cook something would supplement rom 's capabilities \? also , one know one 's mac support grayscale select 300 supposedly capable \? \( short buying printer trying like \) thanks help bill wright wgw netcom com
thomas kephart kephart snowhite eeap cwru edu subject apple give us confusing message \? organization case school engineering lines 17 distribution world nntp posting host b62182 student cwru edu x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d20 x xxmessage id b62182 student cwru edu x xxdate sun , 18 apr 93 20 09 41 gmt article ferch swiss ucs ubc ca les ferch , ferch ucs ubc ca writes afterall , apple 's literature always 100 correct funny one noticed recently brochures macs cd capability refer auto inkjet feature read auto inject feature \( correct brochures 've seen apple \) since correct older brochures , guess someone edited copy , saw inject thought typo changed familiar word inkjet hmmm , would \? printer built cd player \? way writing information cd \? \) \) think get cool images top cd 's anyway \? gotta something top surface artwork
james jim frazier cup portal com subject mo driver compatibility \? organization portal system \( tm \) distribution world lines 10 's understanding , format magneto optical disc , \( 1 \) formatting software installs driver disc , \( 2 \) insert disc different drive , driver loaded computer 's memory controls drive , \( 3 \) driver incompatible drive , disc mounted properly read written correct \? thanks , jim frazier compuserve com
seanmcd ac dal ca subject se rom organization dalhousie university , halifax , nova scotia , canada lines 23 article 43y netcom com , wgw netcom com \( william g wright \) writes anyway , hoping someone knowledgeable mac internals could set straight simply impossible mac se print grayscale , could someone armed enough info little pro experience cook something would supplement rom 's capabilities \? also , one know one 's mac support grayscale select 300 supposedly capable \? \( short buying printer trying like \) thanks help bill wright wgw netcom com use grayscale features , believe need mac equipped colour quickdraw told somewhere , 's mentioned apple facts \( guide apple sellers \) , press release technical specs sean
morse com \( morse \) subject mac oriented bbss chicago lines 8 member local bbs frequent looking mac oriented bbss based chicago leads would appreciated !
hk mlr forsythe stanford edu \( mark rogowsky \) subject pds vs nubus \( lc iii nubus capable \? \) organization stanford university lines 42 distribution usa nntp posting host morrow stanford edu article 1993apr16 1 fnalf fnal gov , higgins fnalf fnal gov \( bill higgins beam jockey \) writes article c5kzls kkb dartvax dartmouth edu , hades coos dartmouth edu \( brian v hughes \) writes mmiller garnet msen com \( marvin miller \) writes friend recently purchased lc iii wants know demon called nubus adapter pds slot \? lc family macs use pds cards able use nubus ah , \? technically hip macslinger tell us difference pds nubus \? impossible make gadget plugs pds ends nubus card cage \? least , marvin 's friend able locate one neither fundamental reason \? \) ' ' , , ' , \) \( \) \( \) zap ! \( \) \( \) bill higgins fermi national accelerator laboratory bitnet higgins fnal bitnet internet higgins fnal fnal gov span hepnet 43011 higgins second wave makes nubus card cages work pds slots least three macs se 30 , iisi centris 610 , knowledge , announced device lcii , could make one , technologically pds card goes cage simply needs nubus controller circuitry present nubus macs , though , anyone care \? three pds adapter lc lcii soon one lciii pds better nubus people applications granted , nubus cards , applications require nubus card \( like full motion video capture \) n't done lc lcii lciii anyway mark
wyvern wyvern com \( doug ashley \) subject se rom organization wyvern com lines 31 seanmcd ac dal ca writes article 43y netcom com , wgw netcom com \( william g wright \) writes anyway , hoping someone knowledgeable mac internals could set straight simply impossible mac se print grayscale , could someone armed enough info little pro experience cook something would supplement rom 's capabilities \? use grayscale features , believe need mac equipped colour quickdraw told somewhere , 's mentioned apple facts \( guide apple sellers \) , press release technical specs sean think find mac se print grayscale images , loaded proper software however , mac se cannot display grayscale screen attached video ability rom , might able print grayscale , 'd hard time seeing grayscale image want print doug signature construction wyvern technologies 's premier online information system \( 804 \) 627 , login guest , password guest register
x102a harris atd com \( jamie cox \) subject serial port problem nntp posting host x102a ess harris com reply x102a ess harris com \( jamie cox \) organization harris govt aerospace systems division keywords serial port , powerbook lines 41 article calvin usc edu calvin usc edu writes friend asked build cable connect hp fetal heart monitor \( se 30 \) problem , sez wanted demo pb 170 , wo n't work ! pb used running zterm kermit using internal external modems n't think 's powerbook per se send 51 hp responds 55 aa test serial ports works se 30 pb170 thought se 30 connected earth ground hp connected chassis hp pw audio \( ground \) connector still ng thoughts \? battery powered devices like powerbook sometimes sensitive serial port weirdness trouble connecting mac plus hp handheld everything else worked okay port , hp \( runs two batteries \) turned plus \( accident design flaw \? \) putting 4 volt bias serial port weird things hp \( 3v dc ! \) hp worked fine connected printer port pb screen get dim anything connected device \? tried using printer port \? good luck jamie jamie cox ess harris com phone 1 407 633 \( work \) harris space systems corp 1 407 723 \( home \) ms rock 2 , 295 barnes blvd macintosh meeting drinking society , florida usa speaking
hk mlr forsythe stanford edu \( mark rogowsky \) subject powerpc lciii powerpc \? organization stanford university lines 97 distribution usa nntp posting host morrow stanford edu article 1993apr16 ac dal ca , seanmcd ac dal ca writes article pyramid pyramid com , andrem mis pyramid com \( andre molyneux \) writes article hal gnu ai mit edu , mirsky hal gnu ai mit edu \( david joshua mirsky \) writes hi lciii recently heard interesting rumor heard lciii built slot powerpc chip true \? heard slot pds slot true \? thanks david mirsky mirsky gnu ai mit edu well , also lc iii popping top revealed one socket additional vram simm one socket 72 pin ram simm one socket flat pack fpu processor direct slot \( pds \) identical lc lc ii , additional set one side \( full 32 bit data path lc lc ii lacked 's guess board powerpc chip could made would fit pds , 's place , possible nubus pds powerpc upgrade , require logic board swap \? would interesting apple come nubus powerpc allowed use cpu 's 680x0 , like rocketshare guess 's getting bit fantastic ! wondering , since macweek reported developers powerpcs nubus card also , word machine arrivals estimated speed \? last heard , estimates around 3 4 times speed quadra native risc mode heard apple employee mumble something arrival powerpc machines much earlier date q1 94 , doubt 's true finally , powerpc developer 's cd 'mini available \? saw advertised developer 's university calendar , 'd like know 's interesting sean seanmcd ac dal ca radius speculated , publicly , could provide powerpc based rocket existing macs would plus rocketshare minus nubus accelerators true boot accelerator , nubus bottleneck video apple , seems , compete third parties except perhaps yet available macs like cyclone , powerpc slot might advertised look daystar make powerpc accelerators one potential problem accelerator , though , need rom companion apple licensed radius , rocketshare , use proprietary code apple , lines , trying let us know powerpc macs simplified logic boards due magical nature risc boards much cheaper build existing 68040 macs perhaps , , 'll see prices mac logic board upgrades , much way 've seen much cheaper high performance cpus year first generation powerpcs , , also hopefully socketed cpus 'll chip upgradeable year later possible much way 486s pulled clock much technical baggage \( doubt since external busses size width \) , perhaps cpu daughterboard , la powerbook , standard facilitate better cpu upgrades area apple fallen far intel based world perhaps order way , last week 's pc week excellent story powerpc , pentium , mips r4000 , dec alpha \( big four microprocessor front forseeable future \) worth reading also , latest pc cover story pentium read , stories intel unstoppable right anyone secure , due fall intel 's market position never dominant today \( especially amd gets go ahead sell 486s week appears might \) competition fronts gearing awesome battle apple users excited powerpc , guaranteed dominance , guaranteed winner , even one several mark
steed bell macrocosm org \( steed bell \) subject networking get 10 reply steed bell macrocosm org organization macrocosm bbs , lawrence , ks lines 10 peter , i'm sure someone better easier way want , 'll tell work 15 macs networked together using appletalk phonenet connectors chat use program called send brief messages selected machines within network hope helps steed
earl fife fife calvin edu subject se 30 acc graphics card \? x xxdate mon , 19 apr 93 05 13 14 gmt nntp posting host 153 106 4 43 organization calvin college x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d20 lines 25 article ics uci edu matt madsen , mmadsen bonnie ics uci edu writes graphics cards se 30 also , say , 040 accelerator \? seem plenty accelerator graphics cards se , none \( 've seen \) se 30 daystar powercache se 30 replaces cpu accelerated cpu plus powercache pds slot open video card , daystar '040 configuration , due early next year upgrade policy , get '030 accelerator , '040 version becomes available , get credit one running 50 mhz version fpu along radius precision color pivot i'm satisfied earl fife department mathematics fife calvin edu calvin college \( 616 \) 957 grand rapids , mi
freenet victoria bc ca \( toby \) subject accelerator classic ii \? nntp posting host freenet victoria bc ca organization camosun college , victoria b c , canada lines 4 one exist , makes , much \? thanks \)
hardwick panix com \( paul hardwick \) subject pc syquest mac \? \? organization panix public access unix , nyc lines 35 usenet ins cwru edu rcs8 po cwru edu \( robert c sprecher \) writes possible , ie via creative cable splicing whatever , hook syquest 44mb removable drive mac \? difference guts drive cable differences \? thanks difference drive ibm pc mac two main differences formatting disk \( correct software read others \) maybe cable \( depends scsi board ibm pc \) get mac allow mounting ibm formatted disk correct cable br able mount read ibm pc syquest good luck , paul paul hardwick technical consulting internet hardwick panix com p box mvs \( sp xa esa \) voice \( 212 \) 535 ny , ny 3rd party addons fax \( 212 \) pending paul hardwick technical consulting internet hardwick panix com p box mvs \( sp xa esa \) voice \( 212 \) 535 ny , ny 3rd party addons fax \( 212 \) pending
cameron lewis lewis aod dsto gov au subject video resolution switching organization aeronautical research laboratory , dsto lines 20 distribution world nntp posting host aod dsto gov au x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d17 x xxmessage id aod dsto gov au x xxdate mon , 19 apr 93 23 23 23 gmt article john shepardson esh moose slac stanford edu john shepardson , john shepardson esh slac stanford edu writes author dpi fry tell way graphics card know resolution connected monitor actually support 's silly cables cable identifies monitor supporting given resolution therefore software support multisync monitor 've heard radius similar program quadra software available either commercially public domain \? \? cameron lewis email lewis aod dsto gov au air operations division \( melb \) 61 3 647 aeronautical research laboratory fax 61 3 646 506 st , bend , vic , australia ,
gene theporch raider net \( gene wright \) subject mac portable vs powerbook 100 answers \( \? \) organization macinteresteds nashville , tn lines 37 regarding post information mac portable powerbook 100 , couple answers \( 1 \) mac portable support appletalk \? yes \( 2 \) cpu mac portable \? low power version 68000 running 15 87 mhz \( 3 \) mac portable run system 7 \? yes , although use lot memory \( 4 \) memory still portable \? several vendors still make ram portable two options vendors sell memory plugs ram slot inside portable others sell memory plugs processor direct slot either way , memory address either 8 9 megabytes , depending whether portable backlit king memory irvine california cheapest place know portable memory 2mb 140 , 4 mb , 250 , 7 mb 415 still see several ads macuser selling 4 mb modules 450 wide variety pricing \( 5 \) internal hd \? conner cp 40 mb hd average access time 25 ms \( 6 \) screen better pb 100 \? heavens yes ! pb 100 backlit passive matrix screen means fades move head degrees left right portable backlit non backlit active matrix screen think joy read things consider get portable much pay \? good supplier mass willing sell 2mb non backlit portable internal 2400 bps modem 650 4 mb backlit portable internal 2400 bps modem 900 answer call around good 'll pay much i'm still looking internal fax modem portable \? anybody got one want sell \? good luck , gene wright gene theporch raider net \( gene wright \) theporch raider net 615 297 7951 macinteresteds nashville
intel com \( garry \) subject monitor recommendation needed summary one larger 14 \? organization multimedia software technology group lines 16 finally decided update se \) \) planning buying centris 610 8 230 cd , monitor get \? guidelines wife uses pagemaker occasionally , use excel sometimes alot home work word processing greater 14 inches looked radius color pivot bought 1000 heard good things e machines 16 , older model new 16 ii super mac \? little 1000 others \? \? garry
aix02 ecs rpi edu \( hillel sims \) subject size vram simm \? nntp posting host aix02 ecs rpi edu lines 20 hi everyone recently posted received bad vram chip new lciii , someone responded may actually bad , may 512k lc vram chip , thus n't work properly computer i'm wondering anyone interpret codes , figure type chip macconnection sent chip says back card , says believe numbers means 80ns chip , ca n't figure size supposed anyone help , 'd grateful please email response thanks lot ! hillel sims rpi edu rensselaer polytechnic institute rot13 rotated 13 forward backward \? anonymous
betts netcom com \( jonathan betts \) subject ghost apple 12 color user insane ! ! organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 16 dear netters , sister apple 12 color display hooked lc problem annoying , horizontal , ghost like stripe vertically per second 1 cm high grave danger going insane ideas might might cure \? joe betts betts netcom com ps pick display \( thought might rfi lc \) seems get worse !
d88 jwa hemul nada kth se \( jon wtte \) subject networking get 10 organization royal institute technology , stockholm , sweden lines 24 nntp posting host hemul nada kth se 92 steed bell macrocosm org \( steed bell \) writes networked together using appletalk phonenet connectors chat use program called send brief messages selected machines within network use system 7 , use application 30 kb footprint \( meaning running time without losing memory \) also compatible chat program allows sounds pictures well , far know , freeware \( source \) available normal services \( mac archive umich edu instance \) cheers , h jon w tte , h nada kth se , mac hacker deluxe signature kept shorter 4 lines interests usenet n ratio
f va ac uk subject us simm prices please organization natural environment research council lines 15 please could someone us give current street prices following , without relevant taxes 8 mb 72 pin simm 16 mb 72 pin simm \( mac lc iii \) tax possible exported uk \? recommend reliable supplier \? posting friend 's account , please reply direct fraser ic ac uk thanks advance help \) simon
katinka van der linden katinka wau nl subject quadra scsi problems \? \? \? x xxdate mon , 19 apr 93 13 30 08 gmt nntp posting host wau nl organization wageningen agricultural university x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d17 lines 10 would like info anybody exabyte 8500 never working quadra 950 trying since september 1992 , replaced cabling , inits , n't know industry experts phoned \( dealer , apple dealer , software dealer \) say 's fault , n't know last thing said needed special quadra scsi terminator \( \? \? \? \) anybody know \? thanks , katinka van der linden katinka wau nl
tthiel cs uiuc edu \( terry thiel \) subject apple give us confusing message \? organization university illinois , dept comp sci , urbana , il lines 16 ferch ucs ubc ca \( les ferch \) writes news2 cis umn edu bunt0003 student tc umn edu \( monthian buntan 1 \) writes anyone know apple ambiguous message c650 regarding fpu \? mac price lists 've seen , every c650 message fpu optional know 've discussed newsgroup c650 fpu built except 4 80 configuration would unclear issue price list \? perhaps reason simple maybe marketing people put together brochures price lists n't clear fpu issue perhaps marketing people n't know fpu ! terry
petrack vnet ibm com subject changing port buffer size zterm reply petrack vnet ibm com disclaimer posting may contain views news software usenet 3 1 lines 21 kind soul told could change serial port buffer size zterm via resedit tell could change using resedit , lost e mail address could one else please tell \? assume relevant resource , know , template resource tmpl correct resource , would grateful receive way , could play around bit maybe get duo something useful serial port \( appletalk \) btw , believe port stats says maximum buffer bytes , means increasing buffer help , using hardware handshaking text data pretty fast duo , monitor cts lowered , buffer never gets beyond \( 4096 \) bytes makes sense scott petrack petrack vnet ibm com
aep world std com \( andrew e page \) subject using setwutime \( \) pb170 organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 16 seem trouble get mac go sleep , ca n't make seem make wake setwutime \( \) aware error header files im vi setting wu time two minutes , putting mac sleep , n't appointed time require call order make sure everything setup \? andrew e page \( warrior poet \) decision effort archer arrow mac consultant difference macintosh dsp technology want
petrack vnet ibm com subject serial line connection duo 210 pc \? \? \? reply petrack vnet ibm com disclaimer posting may contain views news software usenet 3 1 lines 45 tried almost everything sun get null modem connection mac duo 210 pc used mac side used procomm , kermit , \( os 2 \) pc \( ps \) side used non hardware handshaking hardware cables know hands shaking effort nothing allowed file transfers mac ps general , type back forth trouble , sides set speeds 9600 baud cannot send files mac ps , file transfers duo ps possible straight ascii send , send ps duo flawlessly send binhex files way quite fast , know transmission error free straight ascii sent mac ps full errors unless , course , text pacing slow like human typing \( well , like 2 3 times faster human typing \) would like hear anyone able transfer files duo 210 ps via modem null modem , please tell exact combination hardware software obviously , talking true serial port modem , express modem maybe kind soul access modem duo 210 check right , opinion wo n't work high speeds power interrupts duo , wo n't work low speeds crazy reason n't understand could hear someone really pump information serial port duo 210 fast \? like via modem via sys ex dump \? could anyone duo help \? \? going absolutely insane wanna know problem duo , duo , duos , yes , checked cable 1 , 000 , 000 times type back forth , zterm users uses hardware handshaking cts know hardware handshaking working also , according zterm port stats , buffer never please help figure 's going scott petrack petrack vnet ibm com
nodine lcs mit edu \( mark h nodine \) subject quadra scsi problems \? \? \? keywords quadra scsi aps organization mit laboratory computer science lines 28 article news udel edu , johnston udel edu \( bill johnston \) writes article 1993apr16 144750 1568 mintaka lcs mit edu nodine lcs mit edu \( mark h nodine \) writes n't know specific problem mentioned message , definitely scsi problems q700 venerable jasmine megadrive 10 cartridge drives solution get silverlining none loops involved blind writes worked drives fact loop worked macintosh software loop \( whatever means \) doubt quadra specific problem get rid venerable bernoulli 20 last year \( enough cartridges purchased 90 make whole thing worth whole computer \) tech support guys ocean microsystems suggested third party drivers might fix problem case cartridges would n't format mount partition ux know worked perfectly mac plus powerbook 140 reason assumed problem something quadra even quadra , mostly worked ok problem occurred ejected cartridge drive would start popping dialog boxes saying cartridge must formatted jasmine even though cartridge drive mark
rc rit edu \( thomas r ridley \) subject token ring cards macs nntp posting host rc rit edu organization rit research corp distribution usa lines 6 looking recommendations experiences bringing macintosh cpus onto token ring nets someone point right direction information thanks advance tom
mailer acns fsu edu \( gregory cohen \) subject photo shop scanner \? organization florida state university lines 37 article ncube com root ncube com \( operator \) writes root ncube com \( operator \) subject photo shop scanner \? date fri , 16 apr 1993 20 49 30 gmt macc iici color scanner scanned picture 600 dpi try print color printer , 10 minutes making noise , mac hangs would need reboot mean \? need buy memory \? 5 0 mb also 50 mb disk free , scanned picture 12 mb captain zod zod ncube com 0 0 tried printing data file \( tiff \) another application freehand pagemaker \? found photoshop occasional problems printing files print applications greg mailer cc fsu edu infinite illusions juggling supplies beware 1 800 call write eat catalog
probulf informatik tu muenchen de \( frank probul \) subject position 'b' erg keyboard originator probulf informatik tu muenchen de organization technische universitaet muenchen , germany lines 27 article 1993apr6 daimi aau dk , daimi aau dk \( thomas martin \) writes far seen pictures new ergonomic keyboard , seems 'b' placed left part split however , learned typing school years ago , taught write 'b' right hand difference danish american typing , \? \? \? thanks lot advance ! germany usually use left hand 'b' frankie frank probul 17 , 8000 munich 40 , germany applelink probul f applelink apple com internet probulf informatik tu muenchen de munich university technology department computer science germany
cohen ssdgwy mdc com \( andy cohen \) subject iicx wo n't turn organization mda w lines 22 distribution world nntp posting host q5022531 mdc com article rpi edu , pilon aix02 ecs rpi edu \( j pilon \) wrote anyone know would cause iicx turn hit keyboard switch \? one back machine n't work either way turn unplug machine minutes , plug back hit power switch back immediately sometimes n't even work long time tj problem likely cx users experiencing thanks one usenet reader \( sorry ca n't remember guy 's name ! somebody please post deserves credit saving us \) easily fixed , problem best figure due time , heat repeated cool downs power supply e , bad solder joints power supply circuit card go get tool radio shack , low wattage iron good solder lower left quadrant circuit card ac plugs facing away get someone took less 10 minutes saved least 300 new supply !
hades coos dartmouth edu \( brian v hughes \) subject 2 questions centris 650 's ram reply hades dartmouth edu organization dartmouth college , hanover , nh disclaimer personally , really n't care think speak moderator rec arts comics info lines 10 tesla mitre org \( peter engels \) writes according \( seen several times \) postings dale adams apple computer , 610 650 require 80ns simms 60 ns centris 800 requires 60 ns simms 're correct , except 's quadra 800 centris 800 hades
hayes ug cs dal ca \( kevin b hayes \) subject changing port buffer size zterm nntp posting host ug cs dal ca organization math , stats cs , dalhousie university , halifax , ns , canada lines 20 19930419 343 almaden ibm com petrack vnet ibm com writes kind soul told could change serial port buffer size zterm via resedit tell could change using resedit , lost e mail address could one else please tell \? assume relevant resource , know , chop could please post net please , , i'm sure many others would like know thanks ! kev kevin hayes opinions necessarily dalhousie university reflect opinions halifax , nova scotia , canada sue ! hayes ug cs dal ca
rick howtek mv com \( rick roy \) subject 8 24 card questions organization howtek , inc reply rick howtek mv com \( rick roy \) x mailer uaccess macintosh release 1 6v2 lines 31 i'm considering buying one internal video iici get 24 bit color capability 13 monitor 's deal \? 1 \) come varying amounts ram \? , max min \? much need 640 x 480 x 24 bits \? 2 \) bit depths supported \? one , 2 , 4 , 8 , 16 , 24 \? 3 \) cards accelerated \? true modern accelerated video cards \( least general \) faster \? bit depths accelerated , 24 bit \? 've heard applications actually run slower card write directly screen \( something like \) frequent problem \? much slower \? 4 \) n't read \( system 7 first came \) card incompatible \? , corrected \( finder patch , init , \) \? kept compatible 7 1 \? many apps incompatible \( games important \( e , non \) apps , example \) \? 5 \) strong opinion 's value someone position , let know think reasonable price pay thanks lot input rick rick roy usenet rick howtek mv com america online qed disclaimer employer 's views orthogonal early bird got worms
sven beowulf jpl nasa gov \( sven u \) subject increasing number serial ports organization jet propulsion laboratory lines 33 distribution world nntp posting host jpl nasa gov article 1993apr18 bnr ca , slang bnr ca \( steven langlois \) wrote anyone know devices available mac increase number serial ports available use simultaneously \? would like connect 8 serial devices mac application working must able access one independently device exists , limits number serial devices use \? information appreciated steven langlois slang bnr ca ae possibly solution needs 've used one last 4 \( \? \) years personal system , fatal bug crept recent w bug shows heavy serial traffic completely crashes system \( reboot , time hit restart button \) ae told january aware working fixing bug described since answered faxes asking status bug fix ql great , mine going using 2400 baud less , may , infrequent problems , sven
hades coos dartmouth edu \( brian v hughes \) subject quadras vram question reply hades dartmouth edu organization dartmouth college , hanover , nh lines 39 disclaimer personally , really n't care think speak moderator rec arts comics info daniel salber salber imag fr writes question regarding quadras vram tried find info could get precise answers one hand , quadra 950 16 monitor , capable 32 bit color much vram \? display millions colors 16 monitor need 2mb vram q950 hand , quadra 800 16 monitor , capable 8 bit color , must 512 ko vram correct amount board vram q800 comes would like take vram simms 950 put 800 machines 16 bit color capability possible , yes , many vram simms take 950 \? yes possible technically , need take 2 vram simms leaving two get anything 950 cannot really anything 1 5mb vram knows 1mb 2mb documentation , quadra 800 must get 1 mo vram 16 bit color , correct \? yes , correct get 1mb putting 2 256k vram simms vram simm slots q800 's motherboard bonus question vram simms hide \? 950 documentation , seem behind power supply really take power supply access vram simms \? yup take power supply 's couple screws ok make sure everything disconnected watch static discharges
oueichek imag fr \( ibaa oueichek \) subject cache card iisi nntp posting host organization imag institute , university grenoble , france x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 lines 20 i'm looking cache card iisi spend 250 max , need 64 kb cache fpu socket dual slot adapter least connector keep graphic card need advice best card buy much performance increase expect , performance increase 32 64 kb cache price difference \? 's best price get card \( really need spare possible \) ethernet card lc fpu n't think would work iisi fpu socketed think take fpu card put empty fpu socket \? would work 20 mhz \? , much pay extra fpu \? sham \( u \) ya tha \( \) \( u \) lam \( \) ibaa oueichek oueichek imag imag fr ya jamal \( al \) \( \) fi \( l \) \( \) lab de genie informatique \( lgi \) \( \) \( \) \( u \) fi imag , \( \) ala \( sh \) \( \) 46 , av felix , grenoble
horton sps mot com \( david horton \) subject macs suck ! buy pc ! nntp posting host 223 10 249 26 organization motorola inc oakhill austin texas lines 7 article news2 cis umn edu horton cbs umn edu \( robert horton \) writes tests suck ! post real message ! \) presumably erme testing size limits email account 's erme pobox upenn edu missed
horton sps mot com \( david horton \) subject centris 610 video problem i'm also ! nntp posting host 223 10 249 26 organization motorola inc oakhill austin texas lines 27 article usenet ins cwru edu bm967 cleveland freenet edu \( david kantrowitz \) writes push media mit edu \( pushpinder singh \) subject centris 610 video problem i'm also ! date sat , 17 apr 1993 03 17 45 gmt computer set 256 colors certain operations done , particularly vertical scrolling window , horizontal white lines appear monitor \( generally always spare open windows \) lines accummulate operation continued window moved involved area screen moved away line disappear area screen problem observed monitor configured 16 colors 14 inch apple monitor 256 colors used suspect bad video ram chip cannot certain problem apparent since day 1 gotten worse etc anyone problems given configurations \? \( would help eliminate design flaw explanation \) data point , i'm using centris 610 4 80 apple 16 monitor problems
hades coos dartmouth edu \( brian v hughes \) subject help simm configuration reply hades dartmouth edu organization dartmouth college , hanover , nh disclaimer personally , really n't care think speak moderator rec arts comics info lines 22 rcs8 po cwru edu \( robert c sprecher \) writes someone please help understand current situation regarding simms \? sure give shot iisi probably keep another 2 years would like add memory , ie go 5 mb 17 mb know need 4 x 4mb , 80ns faster simms simms , 30 pin 72 pin \? need get 30 pin simms would simms get today usable 2 years newer , powerful system \? mean newer , powerful mac system answer apple stated new macs use 72 pin simms longer use 30 pin simms hades
hades coos dartmouth edu \( brian v hughes \) subject apple give us confusing message \? reply hades dartmouth edu organization dartmouth college , hanover , nh disclaimer personally , really n't care think speak moderator rec arts comics info lines 56 ubs carson u washington edu \( university bookstore \) writes bunt0003 student tc umn edu \( monthian buntan 1 \) writes anyone know apple ambiguous message c650 regarding fpu \? mac price lists 've seen , every c650 message fpu optional know 've discussed newsgroup c650 fpu built except 4 80 configuration would unclear issue price list \? think mostly fault people write literature price lists confused since two possible processor configurations one n't fpu seem option , even though really n't i'm planning buy c650 8 230 cd pretty soon , i'm getting confused whether comes fpu well , allow end confusion c650 come lc040 base 4 80 configuration getting configuration getting fpu say optional 's built \? good question wondering since feb 10th get centris 650 cd configuration , getting mac 68rc040 processor built math coprocessor support understanding optional fpu refers option purchasing centris 650 4 80 without fpu one configurations fpu possible , option something supposed able request want apple done given buyer choice configurations option apple offer upgrade non fpu system become fpu system , unclear whether '040 processor non fpu system \( 68lc040 \) replaced 68rc040 supplied another vendor unclear fact apple included roms machines code recognize presence full 040 's fpu use thereby making upgrade easy switching chips pop lc040 pop full '040 apple send memo one point centris 610 , comes non fpu 68lc040 processor cannot upgraded support fpu pin configurations two chips apparently match cannot swap one another \( , according apple 's memo \) \? think would double check stated countless times newsgroup two centris hardware designers lc040 full '040 pin compatible c610 upgraded full '040 hades
hades coos dartmouth edu \( brian v hughes \) subject centris 650 math coprocessor option reply hades dartmouth edu organization dartmouth college , hanover , nh disclaimer personally , really n't care think speak distribution usa moderator rec arts comics info lines 40 david anthony guevara cup portal com writes sorry faq n't normally read comp sys mac hardware purchasing couple centris 650 's configured systems follows eight \( 8 \) mb ram ethernet 1 mb vram math coprocessor option purchasing agent told math coprocessor option sent apple summary documentation prove ordered coprocessor option , i'm really sure needed thought '040 chip math coprocessor built apple math coprocessor chip keep speed '040 chip centris 650 \? concerned may set hardware bottleneck apple really confused people whole thing think 'll answering question next year option get fpu c650 choice cpus 68lc040 integrated fpu like full '040 present base 4 80 model c650 \( \) full '040 get order anything base 4 80 configuration therefore , since ordered one 8mb versions board ethernet models getting lc040 even wanted lc040 would n't able order c650 8mb ram , board ethernet lc040 's option also , note people 4 80 thinking optional fpu , '040 class chip cannot recognize external fpu , socket motherboard fpu chip cannot go purchase fpu pds card something like way get fpu machines replace lc040 full '040 c610 , need worry heat sink replace lc040 full '040 , 4 80 c650 need heat sink hades
nswc wo navy mil \( paul montanaro \) subject tcp ip routing localtalk ethernet organization nswc lines 32 article stimpy css itd umich edu , css itd umich edu \( ben chuang \) wrote story network 4 macs localtalk one ethernet card , currently connected next \( n't laugh got price mac iisi \) next connected internet slip running 9600 baud modem currently , telnet mac w ethernet next , telnet rest world want know sort hardware route telnet sessions localtalk macs next via ethernet mac heard , air n't trick software solutions would good , impression n't going immediate interest able get next telnet slip connection n't allow us assign ip numbers machines , everyone shares 1 number oh well need hardware router tcp made compatable systems \( 1400 \) allow connect localtalk network \( 4 macs \) ethernet network \( next ethernet mac \) route tcp ip protocol two networks software also available less money , i'm sure work tcp ip paul
michael andrew cmu edu subject full page pb screen organization junior , social decision sciences , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 31 nntp posting host po2 andrew cmu edu hi working project marketing class 'd like ask help assignment come product create marketing plan technical issues terribly important point well , group 's plan market full page monitor laptop computers would third party product installed authorized repair centers \( like newer technology 's screen \) idea screen would fold way would get twice screen height normal screen \( remember , technical issues aside ! \) fact , adjusting fold screen monitor configuration , could regular full height screen would probably monochrome motivation behind laptop computers seem popular among business people business people also commonly use word processing spreadsheet applications convenient see large portion document target users applications , color screens n't really could hopefully keep cost 2000 3000 , please n't write completely ridiculous really need constructive feedback , would , please reply via email let know 1 would consider buying full page laptop screen 2 much would willing pay 3 helpful commentaries idea also , take idea make lot money \( doubtful , knows ! \) , please send thanks advance ! ! ! mike
walsteyn fys ruu nl \( fred walsteijn \) subject built video problems mac iisi ! ! \? \? ! ! organization physics department , university utrecht , netherlands lines 30 dear mac friends , 've seen following problem om three mac iisi machines 17 mb ram installed \( 70 80 ns simms \) contents window calculated updated lot strange horizontal lines temporarily generated screen lines translate top screen slightly lower brightness surroundings \( millimeters apart \) admit vague , still distinguished clearly , especially environment \( e rest room \) bit dark applications produce effect previewer 1 2 \( e 1 2 \) 2 1 1 fpu machines use built video drive old apple hires monochrome screen \( two monitors cable sets tried \) effect independent settings following control panels memory \( adressing mode , disk cache \) monitors \( nr colors \) ever seen effect \? solution \? thanks , fred fred walsteijn internet walsteyn fys ruu nl institute marine atmospheric research fax 31 30 utrecht university , netherlands phone 31 30
smedley ecst csuchico edu \( steven medley \) subject 72 pin simms , \? distribution usa organization california state university , chico lines 13 nntp posting host ecst csuchico edu looking 8 meg 72 pin simm centris 610 best place purchase one \( stock , shipping , warrenty \) , possible , phone numbers order one soon possible thanks , steven hope 's intelligent life somewhere space monty python 'cause 's bugger earth meaning life steven medley email smedley erasure ecst csuchico edu
rjacks austlcm sps mot com \( rodney jacks \) subject apple going ship cd300i 's \? nntp posting host 223 8 248 12 organization motorola inc , austin , texas lines 12 would really like get one new cd300i cdrom drives c650 , local apple n't know available n't even part number yet anyone know part number drive available \? apple dealer suggested buy one cd300 external drives , n't want pay extra case power supply i'm going use rodney jacks \( rjacks austlcm sps mot com \)
daves xetron com \( dave steele \) subject quickdraw performance \( across product line \) organization xetron corp lines 21 company developed application mac emulates chart recorder virtual pen traces scroll smoothly across screen tested application number computers discovered surprising performance differences across products scroll performance iisi lcii better iifx led us investigate color quickdraw performance across apple line results fastest quickdraw color performing computer apple makes \( please \) lciii color classic ranks right quadra line centris line pales comparison anybody know differences computers explains graphics processor performance \? dave steele \( daves xetron com \) \( 513 \) 881 xetron corp 40 w road cincinnati , ohio
pebi aem umn edu \( peter bidian \) subject cache card iisi nntp posting host zephyr aem umn edu organization university minnesota lines 5 hi , bought ago cache card w fpu techworks 219 think cheapest ever saw peter
d88 jwa hemul nada kth se \( jon wtte \) subject position 'b' erg keyboard organization royal institute technology , stockholm , sweden lines 21 nntp posting host hemul nada kth se 1993apr19 informatik tu muenchen de probulf informatik tu muenchen de \( frank probul \) writes however , learned typing school years ago , taught write 'b' right hand difference danish american typing , \? \? \? germany usually use left hand 'b' sweden \( ergonomic keyboard great , ! palm rests fix keyboard sort rests table bad keyboard knee cheers , h jon w tte , h nada kth se , mac hacker deluxe never hide menu bar might go change color color background , never hide menu bar tog
walsteyn fys ruu nl \( fred walsteijn \) subject built video problems mac iisi ! ! \? \? ! ! organization physics department , university utrecht , netherlands lines 24 1993apr19 1018 fys ruu nl walsteyn fys ruu nl \( fred walsteijn \) writes 've seen following problem om three mac iisi machines 17 mb ram installed \( 70 80 ns simms \) contents window calculated updated lot strange horizontal lines temporarily generated screen lines translate top screen slightly lower brightness surroundings \( millimeters apart \) admit vague , still distinguished clearly , especially environment \( e rest room \) bit dark applications produce effect previewer 1 2 \( e 1 2 \) 2 1 1 fpu another program produces effect spyglass transform 2 1 \( big 257 257 array \) thanks information problem , fred walsteijn internet walsteyn fys ruu nl institute marine atmospheric research fax 31 30 utrecht university , netherlands phone 31 30
kluskens radar nrl navy mil \( michael kluskens \) subject quadra scsi problems \? \? \? organization naval research laboratory lines 39 article 1993apr19 mintaka lcs mit edu , nodine lcs mit edu \( mark h nodine \) wrote article news udel edu , johnston udel edu \( bill johnston \) writes article 1993apr16 144750 1568 mintaka lcs mit edu nodine lcs mit edu \( mark h nodine \) writes n't know specific problem mentioned message , definitely scsi problems q700 venerable jasmine megadrive 10 cartridge stuff deleted doubt quadra specific problem get rid venerable bernoulli 20 last year \( enough stuff deleted might fix problem case cartridges would n't format mount partition ux know worked perfectly mac plus powerbook 140 reason assumed problem something quadra even quadra , mostly worked ok problem occurred ejected cartridge drive would start popping dialog boxes saying cartridge must formatted jasmine even though cartridge drive mark problem mentioned last known quadra scsi problem , heavily discussed last year apple employee pointed one byte error scsi driver routine quadra 's \( least 700 900 \) system 7 1 problem , people solution get updated driver drive case mass microsystems wrote new driver fixed problem quadra 700 , occured early last year michael kluskens kluskens radar nrl navy mil opinions expressed author 's employer
especkma reed edu \( erik speckman \) subject pds vs nubus \( lc iii nubus capable \? \) article reed 1993apr19 distribution usa organization reed college , portland , oregon lines 26 article 802 morrow stanford edu hk mlr forsythe stanford edu \( mark rogowsky \) writes second wave makes nubus card cages work pds slots least three macs se 30 , iisi centris 610 , knowledge , announced device lcii , could make one , technologically pds card goes cage simply needs nubus controller circuitry present nubus macs , though , anyone care \? three pds adapter lc lcii soon one lciii pds better nubus people applications granted , nubus cards , applications require nubus card \( like full motion video capture \) n't done lc lcii lciii anyway mark nubus much robust system system installing multiple cards without configuration problems know checking options si number pds video cards would work certian dual slot cache adapters erik speckman
juliet caltech edu \( , wolf c \) subject imagewriter ii 50 hz organization california institute technology lines 12 distribution world nntp posting host juliet caltech edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 hi ! back , thread group use iwii europe \( countries 50 hz ac current \) consensus time iwii would work moving summer , called apple make sure told \( today \) iwii \( bought u \) definitely run 50 hz ac current \( long step converter employed 240 v current used \) info , turns , found iwii manual \( p 127 1989 version \) , n't really trust anyone direct experience contrary \? wondering chris w
sunnyt coding bchs uh edu subject apple going ship cd300i 's \? organization university houston lines 22 reply ln63sdm sdcc4 ucsd edu nntp posting host franklin bchs uh edu article 1993apr19 newsgate sps mot com rjacks austlcm sps mot com \( rodney jacks \) writes would really like get one new cd300i cdrom drives c650 , local apple n't know available n't even part number yet anyone know part number drive available \? apple dealer suggested buy one cd300 external drives , n't want pay extra case power supply i'm going use rodney jacks \( rjacks austlcm sps mot com \) cd300 \( external \) already shipping shipping quite awhile demand units high , pretty rare 've seen listed around 525 550 local computer stores campus mac reseller 've also heard rumors bundled couple cd 's , ca n't confirm sunny sunnyt dna bchs uh edu
auerbach batman bmd trw com subject accelerating macplus \) lines 15 're ready take bold step 90s around accelerating rather large collection stock macplus computers yes indeed , difficult comprehend anyone would want accelerate macplus , 's another story say , get accelerators easier new machines hey , n't make rules anyway , purpose post i'm looking info macplus far , 've found lit accelerator look acceptable , would like hear anyone tried also , someone would recommend another accelerator macplus , 'd like hear thanks time effort expend ! karl
chungkuo umcc umcc umich edu \( shawn fitzgerald \) subject quadra 900 startup w monitor ya right organization umcc , ann arbor , mi lines 11 distribution world nntp posting host umcc umcc umich edu fix \? quadra 900 finish startup unless monitor connected would problem , since 're running file server , need monitor connected time \? shawn fitzgerald umcc \( u computing club \) michigan chungkuo umcc umich edu whether quiet alive , quiet dead makes difference
morgan com \( george michaels \) subject ntsc th nntp posting host organization morgan stanley company distribution comp lines 0
morgan com \( george michaels \) subject ntsc mac nntp posting host organization morgan stanley company distribution comp lines 21 question general displaying ntsc mac understand correctly , video spigot display ntsc small window well capture data quicktime format however , want use larger window , options \? perhaps misunderstood video spigot review also , interested quicktime would merely like use mac television time time nice sony 1430 monitor , would like use second tv wife watching regular tv perhaps video cards mac accept ntsc input \? iisi , willing buy nubus adapter thanks advance help , george
faraday clas virginia edu \( james b \) subject scsi ethernet converter sale organization university virginia distribution usa lines 6 strange piece equipment unload ether scsi interface apparently , plugged scsi port ethernet way save slot nifty well , assume people know , , judging 350 price tag new , 'll ask , say , 75 \? anybody interested \?
adamsj gtewd mtv gtegsc com subject apple cd300 cdrom organization gte govt systems , electronics def div lines 19 article menudo uh edu , sunnyt coding bchs uh edu writes reseller 've also heard rumors bundled couple cd 's , ca n't confirm sunny sunnyt dna bchs uh edu 've got two cd300 's first one ordered jan 15 , received feb 20 second one ordered jan 20th , got april 2nd anyway , come 10 misc cdroms things like intro , sample cd kodak pictures , alice ocean \( story woman across austrailia \) , 3 discs apple , games disc , applications disc , titles disc \( n't checked yet \) also cinderella thing kids , disc mozart something others , etc etc etc someone 's super interested , 'll make list exact titles post category interesting , probably fairly useless rumored earliest units shipped \( may \) , neither drives jeff adams
j stalker nickel ucs indiana edu subject se 30 hard drive problem content type text plain charset us ascii content transfer encoding 7bit organization indiana university mime version 1 0 content length 1161 lines 33 se 30 80 meg hd dates back april 1989 originally purchased , experienced failure boot problem fixed soon rom upgrade hard drive lately similar problem occuring computer powered hd light flashes times given disk boot icon however , upon turing computer drive always boots fine furthermore , instead turning power press reboot button problem occurs , said , turning power always works problem different 1989 boot problem often required several power ons get boot anybody suggestions problem fixed \? i'm wondering 's getting old requires time come speed pram scsi setting allows tell computer wait little longer trying access hd \? thanks ! j stalker nickel ucs indiana edu indiana university computer science dept
carsona fraser sfu ca \( debra carson \) subject \( q \) buying advice keywords mac buy advice stack organization simon fraser university , burnaby , b c , canada lines 22 anyone version mac buy \? later v 1 3 1 \? longer access mac , accessed compuserve , check mac hypercard stack assists decision making based budget , features , main software used please let know help download compuserve cost much higher speed modem used stack , compressed , \? thanks help dale carsona sfu ca
lemay netcom com \( laura lemay \) subject recommend ps printer organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 84 i'm market laser printer used printers fine , non apple printers fine , whatever printer get must fit following required features postscript 300 dpi memory download fonts cheaper , better 'd prefer 1000 nice things anything 4 pages per minute scsi output font disk smallish footprint n't care postscript level ii networking \( , always \) color know freedom press , 've also heard painfully slow tolerate 4 ppm , anything slower i'm going consider price savings worth 'd curious hear people 's experience , tho also infinitely prefer laser ink used use hp deskjets last job n't impressed quality i'm laser bigot first admit \) 'll using printer layout pages book i'm writing page include multiple fonts , ps graphics , scanned line art maybe greyscale pictures \( sure yet \) quality n't need spectacular , needs clear readable printers 've looking used plus , nt , ntr understanding ntr scsi disk true \? personal laserwriter \( ls ntr \) access apple employee discount \( work one apple 's spinoffs \) , get reasonably cheaply 've heard bad things ls comments \? i'm leaning towards personal ntr , cause nice small footprint laserwriter select 300 hear n't postscript , n't seen anything sure heard postscript upgrade \? \? used hp 've worked ii another platform , painfully slow bad mac \? 've seen ads epson ps laserprinter running quite cheap comments printer \? hate styling \( many trays \) , decent printer 'll consider thanks comments laura lemay lemay netcom com writer shadows blood
steve bollinger buzz apple com subject stereo sound problem \( \? \) mac games x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d20 x xxdate mon , 19 apr 93 19 34 37 gmt x xxmessage id apple com organization apple computer , inc lines 192 article network ucsd edu doug p book , dpb sdchemw2 ucsd edu writes hi think problem stereo sound output quadra 900 , totally sure roomate problem powerbook 170 info experience would greatly appreciated hook quadra home stereo system , following types sounds \( mono , far tell \) play fine speakers system beeps \( already provided ones indigo ones record \) armor alley spectre ho ! , following games play left channel lemmings world \( awesome game , btw \) 4 0 still , stereo system beeps play stereo , speakers \( one i'm specifically beginning , roommate downloaded ftp site \( sumex \? \) \) symptoms 170 \( ca n't run n't color \) 're running system 7 1 anyone lemmings three games mentioned get sound speakers mac ii class , quadra , lc , powerbook 140 greater , centris , se 30 , etc \( stereo \) machine \? used mac ii , sort lemmings playing stereo machine , left channel \( could mistaken , though problem quad 900 's pb 170 's , wondering system beeps still play stereo \? n't problem machines , wonder 4 games apparantly written support one channel stereo could use mono sounds mono sound would least come speakers \( like spectre , etc \) \? quadra 900 's powerbook 170 's roms \( knowledge \) , maybe rom problem \? \( , though , would n't system 7 1 patch problem \? \) thanks help provide ! article 1993apr18 kth se jon wtte , d88 jwa hemul nada kth se writes mac sound hardware diverse macs play stereo mix output \( se 30 instance \) others play stereo left channel speaker , truly mono \( like lc \) developers know stuff played left channel guaranteed heard , right channel n't send data , send data left channel \( first , course \) okay , guess time quick explanation mac sound original documentation sound hardware \( im 3 \) documents make sound directly accessing hardware basically , jam values even bytes soundbase soundbase mac 128 \( later machines \) generated sound scanning block every even byte \( odd bytes went floppy machines \) mac ii \( apple sound chip \) invented , designed generate stereo sound also designed compatible documented storing bytes even values soundbase meant want play mono sound apple since retracted documentation soundbase decided document lowest layers sound generation apple never explained stuff bytes want make stereo sound enter game developers sound driver current sound manager lame making games furthermore , people port ibm n't want learn , become popular game writers write soundbase make sound , since easy since mac ii , apple many different kind sound output hardware , things common writing soundbase works hardware , \( mac ii , iix , iicx , iici least \) , writing soundbase gets mono sound speakers macs \( quadra 700 900 950 least \) writing soundbase gets mono sound left channel technically correct interpretations original specification , one obviously preferable reasons developers use sound manager \( think sound driver \) , mono sounds \( typically \) come channels regardless underlying hardware possible specify want generate left channel , one developers write sound base , games come left games problem , original mac ii producing left channel sound internal speaker , se 30 mixes , n't really related due post generation amplification used motherboards different machines affects true stereo sounds sounds actually mono , play internal speaker , matter machine , directly address question , games list lemmings world \( awesome game , btw \) 4 0 also , super tetris \( many , 've tested \) cheat write soundbase left channel quadras games list armor alley spectre ho ! also pga tour golf civilization \( , personal experience \) use sound manager work fine machines story developers cheat ! really , absolutely , positively allowed , i'm going say anyway stop cheating sound ! really soon , sorry , even without external speakers disappointed sound future hardware grace period end sound manager understandable , works pretty well work even better soon , use conclusion doug , n't hardware problem , least , bug jon , n't choice developers whether want send sound channels right way , taken care automatically cheat , way make work hardware fun disclaimer number 1 n't work sound apple , i'm pretty well informed n't write sound questions disclaimer number 2 says wrote anything like grace period end bug news feed , since allowed say anything like know mean disclaimer number 3 n't speak apple , steve bollinger
ross ucsb edu \( richard ross \) subject powerbook math coprocessor \? keywords powerbook , math coprocessor , pb160 lines 9 really want buy powerbook would like one run mathematica need coprocessor afford \( \? \) possible put pb160 \? guy bookstore says n't think much clue please respond e mail ross physics ucsb edu thanks advance , richard
jimb csd harris com \( jim \) subject cache card iisi organization harris csd , ft lauderdale , fl lines 13 distribution world nntp posting host ssd csd harris com article pebi zephyr aem umn edu , pebi aem umn edu \( peter bidian \) writes hi , bought ago cache card w fpu techworks 219 think cheapest ever saw last week , mac 's place applied engineering quicksilver card \( 32k cache , one pds slot , socket fpu \) sale 99 00 \( without fpu \) regular price 199 idea still going , get phone anyone interested \( found ad macuser \) jim \( relation mac 's place except satisfied customer ! \) jimb csd harris com
cunixb cc columbia edu \( \) subject pds cards lciii nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu organization columbia university lines 8 pds expansion cards specifically take advantage lciii 's 32 bit data path 25mhz clock speed \? exist , significantly faster lc lcii versions \? columbia university city new york
coral bucknell edu \( dave bell \) subject need modem selection help ! \( especially vocabulary \) organization bucknell university lines 15 distribution world nntp posting host bucknell edu 've recently ordered centris 650 need decide modem buy i'm pretty sure want get fax data modem run 14 4k , worth \? 'll primarily compuserve link internet , i'm sure systems supply data 14 4k another question modem understand baud rates , v3 4 v3 mean \? could really use suggestions good modem around 300 would , would good choice thanks time dave bell coral bucknell edu forget past condemned live duncan macleod
mcs drexel edu \( jason w \) subject pc syquest mac \? \? organization drexel university lines 19 article usenet ins cwru edu rcs8 po cwru edu \( robert c sprecher \) writes possible , ie via creative cable splicing whatever , hook syquest 44mb removable drive mac \? difference guts drive cable differences \? thanks rob rob sprecher rcs8 po cwru edu many companies package syquest drives mac already unless using one ibm world , id buy mac ready config j
qman casbah acns nwu edu \( charlie kuehmann \) subject trouble w vga displays nntp posting host ironman ms nwu edu organization northwestern university lines 17 i'm currently trouble connecting pb true blue \( ibm model \) vga monitor display readable details seperated yellow red colors ie window two images one yellow ghost image red background also little read time ago , ever thought would hook mac vga screen , incompatability vga monitors due sync green signal sound like could demon \? also read hardware \( putting diode green signal \? \) solution software solution problem n't details somebody e mail post \? checked faq 's n't find anything miss somewhere \? sure seems would good thing one thanks replys charles kuehmann northwestern university steel research group
erenj com \( bob \) subject apple going ship cd300i 's \? nntp posting host big geek erenj com organization er e , clinton , nj opinions solely author 's , company 's distribution usa lines 27 article menudo uh edu , sunnyt coding bchs uh edu wrote article 1993apr19 newsgate sps mot com rjacks austlcm sps mot com \( rodney jacks \) writes would really like get one new cd300i cdrom drives c650 , local apple n't know available n't even part number yet anyone know part number drive available \? apple dealer suggested buy one cd300 external drives , n't want pay extra case power supply i'm going use rodney jacks \( rjacks austlcm sps mot com \) may part number cd300i drive , seen part number bezel kit \( new front panel slot insert cd \) document \( got 2 10 93 announcement apple office \) states drive kit bezel kits separate items bezel kit srp 149 fro c650 external unit may better deal bob erenj com disclaimer preceding represent personal opinions reflect opinions , policies , practices employer
calvin usc edu \( bill \) subject full page pb screen organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 14 distribution world nntp posting host calvin usc edu article andrew cmu edu , michael andrew cmu edu writes hi working project marketing class 'd like ask help assignment come product create marketing plan technical issues terribly important point i'm surprised learn issues terribly anyone working \)
co edu \( tyler jacobs \) subject problem nntp posting host co edu organization boulder valley school district lines 10 problem starting machine gives high pitched sound desktop also mouse menu showing click mouse noise goes away amount time mouse also problem happens 5 10 minutes please let know know , sounds like coming form power supply please post email co edu thanks !
mrl dsto gov au subject se rom organization defence science technology organisation lines 45 nntp posting host mrl dsto gov au gosh , wish people would read postings up' article wyvern wyvern com , wyvern wyvern com \( doug ashley \) writes seanmcd ac dal ca writes article 43y netcom com , wgw netcom com \( william g wright \) writes anyway , hoping someone knowledgeable mac internals could set straight simply impossible mac se print grayscale , could use grayscale features , believe need mac equipped colour quickdraw told somewhere , 's think find mac se print grayscale images , loaded proper software however , mac se cannot display grayscale original poster \( w g wright \) posted item saying bought new bang laser printer apple \( select 300 think \) print grayscale said cannot print grayscale se computer \( also 'experts' dealt agree possible \) one major 3rd party se upgrade \( compared apple 's se se 30 upgrade \) never able run color quickdraw color quickdraw controls color grayscale ses print colour quickdraw original , non colour version , right hooks eight colours remember solution getting colour screen se \( think gave sixteen colours dithering something \) reason apple could n't release software patches older computers \( lots mac pluses , classics ses upgraded 68020 68030 processors perfectly able deal color quickdraw \) wont , 3rd parties difficult time mac 's roms \( e nutek et al \) one caveat would thought printing postscript grayscale image onto postscript grayscale printer , would able , whatever mac using \( pretty sure select 300 postscript printer \? correct i'm wrong \? \) phil ryan melbourne , australia
cae wisc edu \( anders \) subject quadra 950 900 case source wanted organization u wisconsin madison college engineering lines 12 hello , anyone knows place get case hold power supply motherboard quadra 950 please let know tried mail order places local stores groups would prefer part 1000 get case eyes seems 600 700 much comments \? currently guts 950 please email post group w info , thanks advance , andy
lau aerospace aero org \( david lau \) subject accelerating macplus \) nntp posting host michigan aero org organization aerospace corporation el segundo , ca lines 17 also , someone would recommend another accelerator macplus , 'd like hear thanks time effort expend ! karl try looking accelerator plus believe best solution performance price spend 800 upgrading computer worth 300 \? \? \? \? accelerator around 225 speeds internal clock speed 16mhz may seem like much also speeds scsi transfers think feature unique check david lau lau aerospace aero org
arthur greene p6 f204 n2603 z1 fidonet org \( arthur greene \) subject simm vs dram organization fidonet node 1 2603 204 6 even odd , forest hills ny lines 9 anyone tell difference 256k dram chip 256k simm \? need former \( think \) add memory laserwriter ls someone offering sell 256k simms removed se , feeling may correct form memory sockets laserwriter look like want shaped chips \( 4 sockets , , recall , 20 pins , arranged two rows 10 \) believe , 've never actually seen simm help appreciated arthur greene internet arthur greene p6 f204 n2603 z1 fidonet org
diana cair du edu \( \) subject voice messaging organization university denver , denver , colorado lines 16 used voice messaging fax data modems question first brand names recommend \( mostly interested voice messaging fax part \) voice part reliable understandable sellers claim \? approximately , much hard drive space average day callers take , speak one minute \? feed back would appreciated company looking buying one two hey , may buy one thanks advance new jr \( du edu \) another great mind university denver ruined chemistry department denver , co higher education
guykuo carson u washington edu \( guy kuo \) subject si clock poll final call summary final call si clock reports keywords si , acceleration , clock , upgrade article shelley organization university washington lines 11 nntp posting host carson u washington edu fair number brave souls upgraded si clock oscillator shared experiences poll please send brief message detailing experiences procedure top speed attained , cpu rated speed , add cards adapters , heat sinks , hour usage per day , floppy disk functionality 800 1 4 floppies especially requested summarizing next two days , please add network knowledge base done clock upgrade n't answered poll thanks guy kuo guykuo u washington edu
rs6000 cmp ilstu edu \( eric behr \) subject buying high speed v everything modem article rs6000 1993apr20 reply behr math ilstu edu \( eric behr \) organization central illinois surfing club lines 26 quick summary recent findings high speed modems top three contenders seem paradyne , zyxel , us robotics zyxel biggest cult following , 300 , ignored need something mac software , work without tweaking dataport earns nearly unanimous praises reliability moment , probably special 299 price effect may fax capabilities worse two modems warning ads say modem comes mac kit \( cables \) , lifetime warranty applies order directly paradyne ! called \( one distributors \) , wanted charge 16 cable , gave 1 year warranty usr sportster mac also highly \( highly \) recommended 's 250 , willing roll cable n't care software , get generic model pc outlets 190 assuming n't rich uncle , ca n't afford motorola codex \( ended ordering dataport 'll see works two weeks eric behr , illinois state university , mathematics department behr math ilstu edu behr ilstu bitnet \( please avoid ! \)
dpb sdchemw2 ucsd edu \( doug p book \) subject stereo sound problem \( \? \) mac games organization uc san diego chemistry lines 13 nntp posting host sdchemw2 ucsd edu thanks , steve , helpful informative comments mac stereo sound bad developers n't addressing problem make trusty old mac ii superior quadra replaced one way though ! \) thanks , doug
v microsoft com \( kenneth charlton \) subject jump starting mac ii organization microsoft corp distribution usa lines 5 apple dealerships kits replace soldered batteries battery holder real easy install , require soldering
d88 jwa hemul nada kth se \( jon w tte \) subject quickdraw performance \( across product line \) nntp posting host hemul nada kth se organization royal institute technology , stockholm , sweden lines 26 daves 129 228 20 182 daves xetron com \( dave steele \) writes fastest quickdraw color performing computer apple makes \( please \) lciii color classic ranks right quadra line centris line pales comparison anybody know differences computers explains graphics processor performance \? think suffering alignment color table whatever problems , color classic fast quadra rendering screen screen card use course matter much \( built video almost always faster nubus \) measured scroll entire screen color classic vram 10 screen 4 bit color quadra 21 24 bit screen nubus \) cheers , h jon w tte , h nada kth se , mac hacker deluxe sig less 3 lines improve usenet n ratio !
distribution world bruce bmug org organization bmug , inc subject eight 4mb 70ns simms 105 ea , b lines 14 friend mine eight \( 8 \) 4mb 70ns simms sale 105 best offer since techworks sells puppies 140 ea , may want contact directly steve epstein 895 days 706 2436 evenings thanks , bruce l planet bmug , firstclass bbs bmug message contained posting way reflect bmug 's official views
distribution world david schnider bmug org organization bmug , inc subject monitor lciii lines 21 jeff , answers questions first , recommend sony cpd 1320 monitor 14 trinitron vga monitor , designed specifically use lc works macs specific video capabilities means lc 's anything ci takes mac vga cable \( recommend one james engineering 20 \) cost 335 compared much higher prices comparable monitors used one half year love second , used found decent backorder supra modem cancelled helpful explaining reasons delays supra 's number ready complaint always return calls told cpd 1320 selling 339 j r 's \( 800 \) 221 think little , n't know david planet bmug , firstclass bbs bmug message contained posting way reflect bmug 's official views
yalevm ycc yale edu \( spaceman \) subject 512k vram sale lc lcii nntp posting host college node net yale edu organization yale u lines 11 512k vram chip sale worked fine lcii give 256 colors 640 x 480 size screen asking 50 'll cover postage speaking , anyone know best way send chip plastic sleeve , 's best way send \? envelope \? first class \? info appreciated bill spaceman lee p box 532 , yale station new , ct 06520
distribution world david schnider bmug org organization bmug , inc subject x86 680x0 \? \? \( compare \? \) lines 11 real question opinion motorola processors running system 7 mac comparable intel processors running windows pc \? recall conversation 486 25 running windows benchmarks speed 25mhz 030 system 7 n't know true , would love hear anyone technical data david planet bmug , firstclass bbs bmug message contained posting way reflect bmug 's official views
thomas kephart kephart snowhite eeap cwru edu subject mac 800 numbers organization case school engineering lines 90 distribution world nntp posting host b62182 student cwru edu x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d20 x xxmessage id b62182 student cwru edu x xxdate mon , 19 apr 93 21 15 37 gmt 's list 800 numbers compiled sources anybody got anything add \? 's formatted alpha , looks fine , n't complain n't look good adobe 1 415 961 fax info 1 800 235 aldus 1 206 622 5500 alladin 1 408 685 1 214 680 1 800 282 \( apple prog dev assoc \) apple computer 1 408 996 1010 apple customer 1 800 776 non tech assistance aps 1 800 233 \( alliance peripheral sys \) asd 1 714 624 fax 1 714 624 berkeley systems 1 415 540 systems 1 800 473 ce software 1 515 224 1953 claris 1 408 727 1 408 727 claris software 1 800 aris compatible systems 1 800 356 computer associates c 1 408 648 4000 1 800 950 1 203 268 0300 dayna 1 801 972 2000 1 800 367 1 305 594 dr mac 1 800 825 fifth generation 1 800 873 1 408 438 1990 icom simulations 1 708 520 1 800 926 6221 macconnection 1 800 334 4444 1 800 888 macromind 1 415 442 0200 mac 's place 1 800 367 macwarehouse 1 800 255 microcom 1 919 490 microsoft 1 800 426 9400 educational 1 800 227 general 1 206 882 8088 sales services 1 800 426 9400 punch 1 technical assistance 2 university shiva 1 617 864 8100 silicon beach 1 619 695 symantec 1 800 441 mac zone 1 800 248 0800 chip merchant 1 800 426 computers 1 800 253 1 800 delta research labs 1 800 999 diamond 1 800 541 dynamic electronics 1 800 845 etc 1 800 882 global village telecom 1 800 736 mac adb modems lifetime memory 1 800 233 1 800 848 8967 usa 1 800 mac disk 1 800 mac megabyte memory 1 800 748 products memory international 1 800 266 memory plus 1 800 388 plus micro electronic tech 1 800 766 newer technology 1 800 678 peripheral outlet 1 800 332 psi 1 800 622 1 800 733 computers 1 800 366 sii micros 1 800 424 1126 south coast electronics 1 800 289 technologies 1 800 533 technology works 1 800 688 texas 1 800 mac third wave computing 1 800 284 third wave 1 800 284 turbo technologies 1 800 542 1 800 555 1212 directory assistance 1 800 numbers
hsieh hac com \( julia hsieh \) subject reach micron distribution na lines 15 anyone know reach micron \? interested getting specifics types monitors work micron card se 30 either e mail phone number would prefered answers questions , 'd appreciate reply thanks julia hsieh opinions intended reflect hsieh hac com hughes aircraft company
erik cheshire oxy edu \( erik adams \) subject remove 68000 daughterboard upgrade \? organization occidental college , los angeles , ca 90041 usa lines 26 subject says would like , details 512ke upgrade board makes equivalent plus \( system 7 identify \) board clips onto 68000 mb also 68000 periodically remove clip \( entirely easy thing \) clean legs 68000 larry 's book asserts occasionally problem snap upgrades 68000 's legs , causing unusual system errors well , 's , would like something permanent , think would fairly easy put socket 68000 currently , modify board plug i'm 100 sure whether work seems two n't acting independently removing one n't effect performance mac i'm 97 sure someone provide extra 3 \? erik erik cheshire oxy edu
prism gatech edu \( anthony kim \) subject syquest 150 \? \? \? distribution usa organization georgia institute technology lines 3 remember someone mention syquest anyone else heard anything \? 'd interested cost per megabyte approximate cost drive compare bernoulli 150
subject word printing iig gary marshall wvnet edu \( gary 's news \) organization marshall university lines 39 user word 5 0 using symbols pi , plus fractions , etc document shows screen problems , looks fine tries print iig pi changes upside , several symbols change double quotes bottom character , plus little circles appear words fractions instead spaces happens iig laser printer tried macs two different iig 's prints fine nt ntx laser printers 's wrong \? \? \? thanks help advance , gary gary university computer center 400 hal greer boulevard huntington , west virginia phone \( 304 \) 696 3205 fax \( 304 \) 696 internet gary marshall wvnet edu bitnet gary marshall ucc net gary
steveh cc utas edu au \( steve howell \) subject quadra 700 sound organization university tasmania , australia lines 23 quadra 700 goes thru extensive routines hardware , read 's pram , obtains info last session including volume setting , executes sound procedure startup sound , wait 's scsi controller respond boot code dram produces error , registers cannot read device , device corrupts address data control paths , possible , firmware another sound routine produces sound general start procedure typical mac cannot control volume quadra , even boot , feel something incorrect logic board quadra 700 show problems steve h
sven guckes guckes math fu berlin de subject apple going ship cd300i 's \? originator guckes x mail reader elm 2 4 organization free university berlin , germany x news reader nn 6 4 13 13 lines 18 sunnyt coding bchs uh edu writes cd300 \( external \) already shipping shipping quite awhile demand units high , pretty rare hm , 've got cd drive since 've also heard rumors bundled couple cd 's , ca n't confirm indeed , cds bundled usually get nine cds demos applications , games , photos , etc compiled list posted alt cdrom post updated version list rsn sven \)
wstuartj lucky ecn purdue edu \( w stuart jones \) subject adding vram quadra 800 \? summary many 512k vram simms need add quadra 800 \? keywords vram quadra 800 organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 12 want go 512k 1m vram quadra 800 many 512k simms need buy \? current 512k soldered board need take current vram add \? thanks , wesley stuart jones wesley stuart jones res wes mot com wstuartj ecn purdue edu
nestor cs cmu edu \( nestor f \) subject help ! ! error power mac plus nntp posting host nestor ri cmu edu organization school computer science , carnegie mellon lines 7 i'm getting sad mac icon black screen error code could someone please tell 's wrong \? memory \? thanks lot 'd appreciate infinitely nestor
ec ecn purdue edu \( thomas e willis \) subject pb questions organization purdue university engineering computer network distribution usa lines 36 well folks , mac plus finally gave ghost weekend starting life 512k way back 1985 sooo , i'm market new machine bit sooner intended i'm looking picking powerbook 160 maybe 180 bunch questions \( hopefully \) somebody answer anybody know dirt next round powerbook expected \? 'd heard supposed make appearence summer n't heard anymore since n't access , wondering anybody info anybody heard rumors price drops powerbook line like ones duo 's went recently \? 's impression display 180 \? could probably swing 180 got 80mb disk rather 120 , n't really feel much better display \( yea , looks great store , wow really good \? \) could solicit opinions people use 160 180 day day worth taking disk size money hit get active display \? \( realize real subjective question , 've played around machines computer store figured opinions somebody actually uses machine daily might prove helpful \) well perform \? \) thanks bunch advance info could email , 'll post summary \( news reading time premium finals around corner \( \) tom willis ecn purdue edu purdue electrical engineering convictions dangerous enemies truth lies f w nietzsche
az stratus com \( art \) subject quadra scsi problems \? \? \? organization stratus computers , inc lines 63 distribution world nntp posting host az stratus com article katinka wau nl \( katinka van der linden \) writes would like info anybody exabyte 8500 never working quadra 950 trying since september 1992 , replaced cabling , inits , n't know industry experts phoned \( dealer , apple dealer , software dealer \) say 's fault , n't know last thing said needed special quadra scsi terminator \( \? \? \? \) anybody know \? thanks , article 1993apr19 mintaka lcs mit edu , nodine lcs mit edu \( mark h nodine \) wrote article news udel edu , johnston udel edu \( bill johnston \) writes article 1993apr16 144750 1568 mintaka lcs mit edu nodine lcs mit edu \( mark h nodine \) writes n't know specific problem mentioned message , definitely scsi problems q700 venerable jasmine megadrive 10 cartridge drives solution get silverlining none loops involved blind writes worked drives fact loop worked macintosh software loop \( whatever means \) doubt quadra specific problem get rid venerable bernoulli 20 last year \( enough cartridges purchased 90 make whole thing worth whole computer \) tech support guys ocean microsystems suggested third party drivers might fix problem case cartridges would n't format mount partition ux know worked perfectly mac plus powerbook 140 reason assumed problem something quadra even quadra , mostly worked ok problem occurred ejected cartridge drive would start popping dialog boxes saying cartridge must formatted jasmine even though cartridge drive mark using pli \( sony \) 3 5 mo drive sharp color scanner using standard scsi cables standard 20 terminator q700 problems using iifx , might another story make sure one terminator cabling must end boxes internal terminators switched others count box internal cannot put end terminate cabling , disabled , ie , switched pulled sockets 2 boxes internal , one box disabled , etc sure covered experts experience scsi boxes connect mac indicates must software package mac pli mo drive sharp scanner one good luck art speak
ritvax isc rit edu \( \) subject macplus home brew question \? \? nntp posting host vaxb isc rit edu reply ritvax isc rit edu organization rochester institute technology lines 16 ha talk changing clock speed q700 makes ask \? \? replaced 8mhz 68000 plus 16mhz 68000 16mhz clock \( shared rest mac new \) would mac work would work would think problems sound , , scsi seems like simple solution dead slow live little longer oh would work make work \? \? \? thanks alex ritvax isc rit edu
alexander samuel mcdiarmid am2o andrew cmu edu subject driver \? \? organization sophomore , mechanical engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 15 nntp posting host po4 andrew cmu edu 1 \) old jasmine drive cannot use new system understanding driver modern one order gain compatability system 7 0 1 anyone know inexpensive program \? \( seen 20 idea work \) 2 \) another ancient device , one tape drive back utility freezes system try use drive jasmine direct tape \( bought used 150 w 6 tapes , mechanism \) essentially question , anyone know inexpensive utility use system 7 0 1 help advice appriciated
charles p cox , jr cox snowhite eeap cwru edu subject calling mac gurus organization case western reserve university lines 21 distribution world nntp posting host student cwru edu x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d17 x xxmessage id student cwru edu x xxdate mon , 19 apr 93 04 56 52 gmt question familiar quadra vram put 2 256k vram simms quadra 700 \( 2 slots closest ram simm slots \) got results whatsoever told built video support least 16bit maybe 24bit color macintosh color display however , monitors control panel still lists 8bit \( 256 colors \) highest possible make difference slots put simms \? something activate \? something monitors control panel \? btw , running system 7 1 8 megs ram charles p cox , jr computer engineering case western reserve university po cwru edu cox snowhite eeap cwru edu
corbo lclark edu \( beth corbo \) subject non apple mini docks available \? article lclark 1993apr20 organization lewis clark college , portland lines 22 article rahul net jonathan mecca com writes deguzman \( deguzman math uiuc edu \) wrote boss considering purchase powerbook duo leaning towards 180 , math coprocessor \( mathematica \) , would get duo could find mini dock coprocessor third parties announced beast \? believe e machines might produce something nature yes , e machines makes two mini docks offers variety video options , including ntsc , rgb svga also sound , floppy drive port power port unfortunately scsi port blocks serial port standard ports plus built ethernet alas , none fpu future , rasterops putting mini dock , name escapes supposed support 16 bit color quadra comparable video speed idea fpu hope helps beth corbo
leland stanford edu \( christopher \) subject syquest 150 \? \? \? organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa distribution usa lines 30 article hydra gatech edu prism gatech edu \( anthony kim \) writes remember someone mention syquest anyone else heard anything \? 'd interested cost per megabyte approximate cost drive compare bernoulli 150 think must talking syquest 105 \( code named mesa believe \) 3 5 winchester technology drive pretty much like syquest drives terms works according latest , drive 14 5 ms access time , 1 9 mb sustained throughput \( figures memory could slightly , give idea performance nonetheless \) drive originally released pc recently released mac world \( n't ask differences \) currently limited supply , according syquest rep process mass production already seen advertised number manufacturers including pli , , , macwarehouse 's pli units priced around 1000 lesser name brands going around 750 external drive cartridges hold 105 mb sell 80 prices , drives cartridges cheaper better performing drives cost per megabyte compares favorably cartridge drives bernoulli drives , large amounts data optical still cheaper , reliable personally , i'm excited new drive look forward getting hands one chris egotism anesthetic pain stupidity frank leahy
thewho athena mit edu \( derek fong \) subject apple going ship cd300i 's \? organization massachusetts institute technology lines 26 nntp posting host alfredo mit edu interestingly enough , cdrom 300i came quadra 800 8 disks 1 system install 2 kodak photo cd sampler 3 alice ocean 4 cdrom titles 5 application demos 6 mozart dissonant 7 8 apple chronicles anyone else noticed got less everyone seems getting external \? really feel missed supposed fantastic games demo disk heard people gotten 9 10 disks drive assume get 8 titles plus cinderella games demo cdrom comments experiences \? call apple complain \? \) derek thewho plume mit edu
scott cam org \( jeff scott \) subject ntsc mac lines 24 x mailer buggy , mean beta , test version stuff deleted also , interested quicktime would merely like use mac television time time nice sony 1430 monitor , would like use second tv wife watching regular tv stuff deleted would n't cheaper buy little fourteen inch colour tv \? curious george jeff scott montreal , que , canada scott cam org
bgrubb dante nmsu edu \( grubb \) subject mac ibm info version 1 7 7 organization new mexico state university , las cruces , nm lines 753 distribution world nntp posting host dante nmsu edu send follow ups comp sys mac advocacy sorry header let one easily change headers gave year trying sheet also available ftp sumex aim stanford edu \( 36 44 0 6 \) info mac report mac ibm txt mac ibm info version 1 7 7 reason general data sheet condense information , people camps clear accurate saying machines since computer technology always changing always going points sheet lacking incorrect information , please n't say sheet incomplete incorrect also give clear concise information make needed corrections prices us dollars keep data sheet organized please provide , possible , article citations information provided corrected keep opinions minimum general data sheet , keep info provided simple understand talked explain others finally , keep information relevant section corrected example , os code rom software contained hardware , 'but supported os disk data hardware section , please thank note proper reading line document 9 point monaco special thanks andrew aardvark ucs uoknor edu \( chihuahua charlie \) , andrew frip wv tek com \( andrew klossner \) , bell peter yale edu \( peter bell \) , hayes com \( bill coleman \) , andrew cmu edu \( carl b \) , d88 jwa nada kth se \( jon wtte \) think com \( \) , andrew cmu edu \( faisal \) , cafe eecs nwu edu \( gabriel \) , julian kiwi gen nz \( julian harris \) , krueger um cc umich edu , krueger engin umich edu , matt wardsgi med yale edu \( matt healy \) , mark co uk \( mark \) , jarthur claremont edu \( john h kim \) , mem pha jhu edu \( mel martinez \) , nan matt ksu ksu edu \( nan \) , us oracle com , fuller iastate edu , strobl gmd de \( wolfgang strobl \) , hq af mil , phill ichips intel com , duvm ocs drexel edu , alaska edu \( jay c \) , lewis novell com , lamont rtsg mot com \( bradley lamont \) , rutgers edu \( , joseph \) , edu \( mel park \) , applelink apple com \( jeff \) , hou amoco com \( robert \) , apple com providing information made list possible contents cpus hardware monitor support expansion operating system os number crunching networking printing cpus note showing motorola intel cpus used mac ibm pc clone machines example , since apple never used motorola 68010 mac chips listed years appear dead cpus indicate first last year used cpu cache note ibm mac use caches external cpus external caches increase speed cpu part present macs external caches built ibm optional though machines generally sold installed since many different external caches cpu mac ibm scsi , video , disk static ram mac , different effect cpu performance , machine static ram cache iici , iifx , iivx , seller cache card installed expansion iici cache cards go dependent , decided leave list note alu industry 's de facto standard cpu bit classification ibm alu registers external cpu features cpu bus address cache notes 8088 \( 6 \) 16 16 8 \( 16 \) 20 none 1981 9 198 \? 9 80186 16 16 16 20 none 198 \? 9 \? 80286 16 16 16 24 none 80186 protected mode 80386 32 32 32 32 none mmu 32 bit protected mode 486sx 32 32 32 32 one 8k 80486 fpu 80486 32 32 32 32 one 8k 80386 fpu 486dx2 32 32 32 32 one 8k doubled internal clock rate 486dx3 20 60 mhz , 25 75 mhz , 33 99 mhz planned pentium 32 32 64 32 16k code , cisc chip risc like 5 16k data features , 2 issue , p 5 386 write back , 64 bit fpu path , pipelining speed specint92 64 5 specfp92 56 9 386sx 386 chip 32 bit internal 16 bit external architecture 286 386sx chips address 16mb maximum ram low power \( 3 3v \) 386sx built power management used mainly laptops ibm 5v 386sx 16k chip cache added \( john h kim \) far john h kim knows used ibm models 486slc neither two chips name fpu cyrix basically 486sx 386sx socket 1k cache improved integer math speed ibm equivalent 486sx except 16k chip cache ex 486dx2 50 , chip runs 50 mhz rest machine runs 25 mhz \( pc week 04 12 93 pc mag 4 27 93 138 \) latest line cisc chips \( pc mag 4 27 93 110 \) samples released march 22 , 1993 , machines announced least may 1993 \( pc week 2 08 93 \) 1000 cpu systems 5000 \( pc mag 4 27 93 110 \) mac alu registers external cpu features cpu bus address cache notes 68000 16 32 16 24 none 1984 1993 16mb limit 68020 32 32 32 32 256 code 1987 1992 parallel processing 68030 32 32 32 32 two 256 68020 mmu , 16k burst mode 68lc040 32 32 32 32 two 4k 68040 fpu 68040 32 32 32 32 two 4k mmu , fpu , pipelining , doubled internal clock rate development discontinued favor 68060 68060 32 32 32 32 branch 68040 better fpu , target pipelining , cache line bursts , equivalent capabilities speeds pentium includes data instruction code caches 68030 , 68lc040 , 68040 built caches 68000 mac designs created 4mb limit 040 2 clocks , internal processor clock pclk 2x freq external bus clock one used rate chips \( bradley lamont motorola 68040 data book \) compilers produce programs sensitive pclk act 68040 clock chip , compiler program dependent maybe written allow programs take advantage 68040 's pclk future , studies one byte article showed 040 25 486 50 roughly 486dx2 50 dependent machine , os , programs tested representative general performance motorola claims \( pc week 09 07 92 09 14 92 \) powerpcs ibm mac machines listed separately eliminate redundancy motorola cpu risc chips powerpc alu registers external cpu features cpu bus address cache notes mc98601 32 32 32 int 64 32k speed specint92 50 601 32 fp combined specfp92 80 low power mc98601 desktop portable systems end 1993 603 high performance mc98601 high end machines 1st q 1994 604 64 64 32 int 64 32k mid 1994 620 32 fp combined \( pc week 04 12 93 pc mag 4 27 93 138 \) select sent sample mc98601 chips motorola 2 93 \( pc week 2 08 93 \) , nubus boards containing early samples powerpc 601 given apple 's list developers \( pc week 12 7 92 macweek 12 14 92 \) mc98601 50mhz 280 mc98601 66mhz 374 \( pc week 4 12 93 \) systems 3500 2000 versions mid 1994 \( pc week 4 12 93 \) cpus comparison list general rule thumb motorola chips faster intel chips frequency 030 25 386 33 040 25 486dx 50 , intel chips higher frequencies motorola , evens macintosh bible 4th ed supports comparisons intel motorola chips 68020 80186 68000 16 bit vs 16 24 32 bit chip data path address lines data address registers 4mb limit 68000 macs brings 80186 lower chips , otherwise would compare 80286 286 68020 hardware vs 68020 's 32 bit alu chips come usable built mmu unlike successors 80386 , 68030 hardware 's protected mode used os 2 1 0 windows 3 x use hardware 16 bit nature put 286 68030 features lc 's 16 bit data path 286 68020 comparison 386 68030 two 32 bit chips , protected memory ux 3 0 present mac os use 68030 's protected memory feature apps system 7 x uses feature protect ram disk created memory control panel supported powerbooks quadras color classic lcii 16 bit hardware data paths makes comparative 486sx 68lc040 486 68040 without fpu used low cost solution people need fpu programs sensitive pclk pipelining 68lc040 behave like 486dx2 fpu 486 68040 two 32 bit built fpu , mmu , 8k internal cache \( implemented two 4k caches 68040 one 486 \) programs sensitive pclk pipelining 68040 behave like 486dx2 pentium 68060 planned heat problems chips may cheaper \( pc week 3 08 93 4 12 93 pc mag 4 27 93 110 \) , earlier released \( pc week 12 7 92 macweek 12 14 92 pc week 2 08 93 \) , less producing 160 degrees f pentium \( pc mag 4 27 93 118 \) , partly ported powerpc chips powerpc powerpc cpu line planned run programs dos , windows 3 x , os 2 mac os top ux 4 0 unix later pink taligent os using emulators , necessary , oses k softpc os 2 dos hardware effort remove system almost every time add requirement add cards , drivers , video , operating systems ibm world , intel , microsoft 12 hardware software developers working standards \( pc week 03 08 93 \) color support display mac 30 24 mhz pixel clock standard present macs support use 32 bit color 32 bit color quickdraw rom 32 bit color quickdraw allows almost transparent capability display edit x bit images bit color retain colors bit color x independently 1 , 2 , 4 , 8 , 16 , 32 regardless monitor resolution 63 dpi 12 color 94 dpi monitor type including vga , mcga svga monitors ranges including 66 7 hz vertically 35 khz horizontally hardware video adaptor \( macuser aug 1992 158 176 \) older machines supported color se 30 , ii , iix , iicx 8 bit color rom needed software patch use 32 bit color \( macuser special 1993 28 29 \) keep costs speed macs 8 16 bit display capability built , expanded display 24 bit color presently quickdraw optimized 72 dpi display quickdraw qx change addition , quickdraw allows , macs nubus slot , one monitor used combination , two monitors showing thing multiple monitors acting one large large monitor degree overlap pictures vram video ram standard present non powerbook mac 's handling built video 32 bit color palette vram provided runs 8 bit color 640x480 display expandable 16 bit color 8 bit 832x624 display sound output standard macs since 128k stereo sound became standard se 30 ibm even though pcs rom bios definitions operating system interacts video hardware \( nan \) , use drivers bypassing bios , video see super vga clone bios left resolution video display hardware , os program interaction os video hardware question \( faisal \) addition , ibm clone makers never bothered provide standard hardware mechanism software determine display mode actually present \( matt healy \) standardized screen drawing toolbox like mac 's qd result os must well written detect modes , especially third party cards use present things dependent interaction program , os , print driver monitor card editing 32 bit pictures regardless color mode , os , monitor type card combination one mac impossible ibm example , one cannot edit 32 bit color picture done os 2 486 svga monitor 386 vga 18 bit color palette dos 5 0 still colors one started later ibm machines integrated graphics accelerators , faster processors , modular may built sound cards , cd rom , ethernet \( pc week 12 14 92 \) mda display adapter original character mapped video mode , graphics , 80x25 text cga color graphics array 320x200 4 colors b w , 16 color palette , bad eyes ega enhanced graphics array 16 colors 64 color palette lower res versions could run 256 colors , eyes vga video graphics array 320x200 256 colors , 640x480 16 colors , others , two commonly used modes 256k clut , 18 24 bit ibm 32 bit mac color palette 25 175 mhz pixel clock \( mel martinez \) monitors use analog input , incompatible ttl signals ega cga etc mcga multi color graphics array subset vga provides features mda cga , lacks ega vga modes , like vga 640x480x16 \( dictionary computer terms dct \) common initial ps 1 implementation ibm ps 2 models svga super vga standard way others , instead category group video cards , manufacturer using implementation scheme , svga chaos people debating svga effort make svga standard vesa established used newer units , things still mess video either 512k 1990 1m today , resolution 800x600 1024x768 16 256 colors common , newer ones since 1990 sierra hicolor ramdac , giving 15 bit 32 , 768 colors 800x600 , newer ones 6 92 24 bits per pixel usually 640x480 , much variation , slow western digital paradise based , example , fast s3 based , example , like tseng et4000 , popular chipset limiting factors overcome 40mhz vl bus 386 's linear address mapping 8 33 mhz isa bus , architecture cpu looks card 64k window , etc non svga standards 8514 ibm 's standard , graphics accelerator graphics functions like , polygon fill , etc hardware clone implementations ati fastest video available today , though clone models high end graphics co processors , usually 1000 , 24 bit , speeds vector oriented graphics like cad xga extended graphics array newer faster 8514 , available mca bus based ps 2s , clones coming soon emulates vga , ega , cga \( dct \) max resolution , 8514 , also 16 modes xga 2 accelerates graphics functions 20 times faster standard vga windows os 2 , including line draws , bit pixel block transfers , area fills , masking x addressing intelligent way detect co exist xga 2 cards , multiple desktops like mac may far away since architecture , resolution color depth n't fixed ibm implements 16 bit 65 , 536 color , companies 24 bit color ibm technical licenses refresh rates 75 hz , ensures flicker free , rock solid images reduce visual discomfort , vga compatible 1280x1024 os 2 monitor types usable mac see mac section specific details expansion mac ibm scsi external device expansion interface common mac ibm allows use device hard drive , printer , scanner , nubus card expansion mac plus , monitors , cd rom main problem lot external devices internal terminated causes problems two scsi port scsi chain supposed terminated begining end set causes problems either mac ibm scsi 1 7 devices per scsi controller 8 bit asynchronous 1 5mb ave synchronous 5mb max transfers difference due scsi 1 software drivers fast scsi 1 8 bit scsi 2 scsi 1 mode see scsi 2 details scsi 2 10 devices per scsi controller scsi 2 mode scsi 2 fully scsi 1 compliant 8 bit scsi 2 tends implemented fast scsi 1 since require different controller interfaces hardware software 16 32 bit scsi 2 transfer speeds 4 6mb 10mb burst 8 bit , 8 12mb 20mb burst 16 bit , 15 20mb 40mb burst 32 bit wide fast since 8 bit scsi 2 use scsi 1 software drivers hardware 8 bit scsi 2 speeds limited 7 devices sometimes mistakenly called fast scsi 1 16 bit fast scsi 2 requires scsi 2 software driver scsi 2 electronics still use scsi 1 ports wide 16 bit 32 bit scsi 2 require different scsi port , electronics , software driver scsi 1 makes expensive scsi interfaces mac scsi asynchronous scsi 1 built standard since plus even though apple developed specifications scsi controlers , os scsi manager needs rewritten take full advantage features scsi interfaces result present scsi 2 macs use 8 bit scsi 2 fast asynchronous scsi 1 presently quadras macs scsi 2 controller chip built \( digital review , oct 21 , 1991 v8 p8 \( 1 \) \) though lack parts hardware , like wide scsi 2 port interface since macs require nubus card use scsi 2 , older nubus macs bottleneck due speed nubus cpu rumor cyclone macs june come wide fast scsi 2 port standard rewritten os scsi manager ibm scsi scsi 1 wide spread yet , generally bundled systems , except add eisa vesa local bus adapters like mac , 8 bit scsi 2 used fast scsi 1 controllers unlike mac , ibm exact scsi controller specifications results added incompatibilities scsi mac memory expansion exceptions mac used non parity 30 pin 8 bit simm memory expansion since plus 32 pin 9 bit parity simms could used macs , special could make use parity feature simm types called 32 pin simms iifx used 64 pin parity simms lc iii , c610 650 q800 use new 72 pin simm accessable 32 bits time used ibms mac complete memory check startup writing reading every memory location something seriously wrong simm mac boot give sound chord indicating problem since macs made feb 15 , 1993 managed memory data path , simms installed pairs 16 bit sets 4 32 bit centris 650 quadra 800 eliminate new memory management setup allows memory upgraded one simm time simms size used memory across two simms resulting 10 15 performance boost ram access \( macworld apr 93 108 109 \) printers , , modems built interfaces standard monitor interface sound input built present macs pds available se present non powerbook macs 16 bit se , portable , lc , lc ii , classic line 32 bit operates cpu 's mhz maximum put data path bytes cpu 's mhz q700 900 c650 4 25mhz 100mb q800 q950 4 33mhz standardized lc 040 bus designs adapter one nubus card used iisi c610 problem cards timing dependency slows put nubus mac ii 32 bit , 10 mhz bus clock , 1 1 transaction bus cycle ratio , contiguous , hand shake transactions 10 20mb theoretical peak 40mb built modular macs except lc series , c610 , performa 400 se 30 could adapted use even mac plus scsi nubus supports every possible expansion cpu ethernet dma nubus 90 nubus mac ii back compatable 20mhz bus clock , avg throughput burst mode 80mb future card designs 7 instead old 12 quickring peer peer bus used parallel nubus 90 apple 's vlbus architecture identical vlbus \( byte 10 92 128 \) burst mode 350mb \( byte 10 92 128 \) development cpu expansion handled either pds nubus unlike pds , nubus cpu cards example radius rocket allow use multiple processors time like two macs box able dual task process depending card software involved nubus card needs memory nubus cards type come 8mb ram simms card standard ibm memory expansion parity simms , non parity simms newer models mac like simm memory check , dozen different types memory boards hd interfaces limited hard drives design lack development mfm modified frequency modulation , rll run length limited used smaller hard drives ide integrated device electronics asynchronous 5mb max synchronous 8 3mb max transfer currently common standard , mainly used medium sized drives one hard drive esdi enhanced small device interface 1 25mb throughput generally considered better interface scsi 1 many ways common enough practical consideration outside hard drives , device choices limited compared scsi 1 bus interfaces new isa eisa compatable cards may problems working old cards \( infoworld pc week 03 08 93 vaporware 4 93 \) isa 8 16 bit interfaces common 24 bit data path limit produces 16mb limit software workarounds \( pc mag 4 27 93 105 \) 1 5 mb \( byte 3 93 132 \) uses edge triggered interrupts , ca n't share , hence comes irq conflict limited busmastering capabilities , cards n't bandwidth limited com ports , lpt ports , game ports , midi card , etc others video disk controllers dominant factor , 's showing age isa motherboard designs 16 bit \( pc world feb 1993 144 5 \) mca micro channel ibm 's 16 32 bit bus allows use one cpu computer \( dct \) anything talk anything , fast two components involved handle never took incompatible isa eisa planned bus interface ibm powerpc 601 \( carl \) eisa nubus mac ii closest mac equivalent 32 bit , 8 33 mhz , burst mode also ability self configure cards like mca allows multiple bus masters , interrupt dma channels multiple cpu use vesa local bus vlb sometimes mistakenly refereed pds local bus standard runs cpu clock rate , burst modes 130 mb 32 bit 250 mb 64 bit \( byte 10 92 128 \) limited three slots allows bus mastering coexist either isa eisa ideal video disk dell filled claim violates one patents \( mel martinez \) quickring apple 's faster 350 mb burst version vlb architecture \( byte 10 92 132 \) might show ibm powerpc machines \( byte 10 92 132 133 \) development pci intel 's version local bus intended totally replace isa eisa mca development oses assumes full installation print drivers , fonts , multifinder , etc multiple application use mac 512k 1mb os hardware commands put rom allows apple control machine putting key hooks mac os quickdraw , menu commands , print , mouse , scsi sound drivers , etc rom , require clone makers use rom chip read rom disks requires access proper mac since different macs slightly different rom chips plus vs classic example key hooks os support interface rom , worry much whether disk os necessary hardware commands commands therefore write smaller programs also allows apple greater control hardware software standards disk os smaller , command code rom , lower ram requirements totally disk based os macs use masked rom fast dram \( jon wtte \) 6 0 7 single program usage base requirements 1 mb dd floppy , multitasking base requirements 2mb hd floppy features gui , cooperative multifinder , standard program interface , standard stereo sound support snd network receiving part appleshare software bundled os 8mb ram barrier 24 bit os third party products allow virtual memory long real ram 8mb 6 0 8 6 0 7 7 0 0 print drivers 6 0 8l system 6 macs require system 7 0 x 7 0 x base requirements 2mb , 40mb hard drive , 68000 de facto standard run features well 4mb , 80mb hard drive , 68030 lowest present non portable mac configuration using 10 everything system disks hard disk space 6 0 7 features plus program linking within computers , built server capabilities used older oses using appleshare client software accessed 10 macs max 4 5 speed practical , requires 7 x , virtual memory machines mmu 1 6 times real ram least noticeable iisi speed degradation , drag drop , quicktime built truetype support supports sound input snd formats present machines access true ram 4gb virtual memory 24 32 bit os use real ram beyond 8mb must 32 bit mode older machines requires 32' extension apple 's last os 7 1 0 7 0 1 support , , less ram usage 7 0 dot \( macweek 8 24 92 9 14 92 pc week 9 7 92 \) run 32 bit mode older machines requires 32' bit extension marks start apple mac os instead allowing free upgrades bundled new machines , 49 7 0 x upgrades , 99 otherwise installer bug upgrading may keep old system fonts previous system inside system file eat ram benefits cause problems apple recommends removing fonts system file ux 3 0 unix needs 8mb ram 12 20mb suggested , hard drive , 68030 68040 equivalent run 32 bit preemptive multitasking os large due unix needing translators mac roms price 709 note sound output supported oses 3 2 6 0 5 many formats including following snd , wave , , , , , , , 6 0 7 sound manager optimized sound standards causes playback problems old formats , though still play ibm little gui code , data , hooks present hardware programmers work , coding must provided os since hard disks slow disk os code read ram addition , little rom code also read ram process called shadow rom results faster implementation since ram faster os code disk advantage able better optimize code given certain piece collection hardware harder rom based system due needed addition reduces need size patches major revision hardware support needed side note charged microsoft formed os trust providing feature documentation oses developers outside ms designing windows dos apps fail os 2 \( undocumented windows \) deliberate code windows nt beta causes install abort os 2 boot manager present \( gregory hicks , info ibmpc digest 201 \) due conflict intrest one member vote judicial council action microsoft tie resulted action rumors matter , likely point choosing new member whole new council addition government turned microsoft 's copyright windows would allow charge fee developers using hooks \( pc week 03 08 93 \) microsoft oses dos 5 0 640k barrier memory manager , 1 mb barrier third party memory managers 16 bit os requires program must provide print drivers 16 bit programs need dos protected mode interface \( dpmi \) compliant running 386dx 32 bit protected mode break barriers contains gui shell present dos 4 0 dos 6 0 dos 5 0 added features built file , disk , debugger config sys file needs 80 module networking cost 50 5 93 , 129 99 \( byte april 1993 44 46 \) dos 7 0 32 bit dos development \( pc week 04 05 93 \) window 3 0 runs top dos breaks 640k 1m barriers still deal dos file structure base requirements 1mb , floppy 286 run well 2mb , hard drive , 386sx fast display adapter 8 bit equivalent mac 's qd called windows gdi graphics device interface consistent application interface like early mac programs \( 1984 1985 \) large program base compared dos still tends slow machine \( info ibmpc digest 186 \) speed dependent display adapter cpu \( bill coleman \) window programs tend disk memory hogs compared dos counterparts \( byte april 1993 98 108 \) window 3 1 faster version window 3 0 better memory base requirements 1 mb , hard drive 286 run well 2mb , hard drive , 386sx apple plans release print drivers \( pc week 12 28 92 \) windows workgroups run well 4mb ram 386dx \( pc world feb 93 160 \) intermediary win 3 1 windows nt basically windows 3 1 built peer peer networking support windows nt beta release takes disk space including swap file , 12mb ram notorious ram usage especially interaction code program , hence reports requirements released version supposed need 8mb ram , gates recommends 16mb ram \( pc week 04 15 92 \) 32 bit os protected mode multitasking , multithreading , symmetric multiprocessing , file system , 32 bit gdi built networking osf dce compliant handle 4gb ram even though people see july 4 release date \( infoworld nov 16 92 \) , rumor final version available oct 1993 \( infoworld may 25 92 july 6 92 vaporware 07 92 08 92 \) 4th quarter 1993 \( pc week 09 28 92 \) windows upgrades 295 , otherwise 495 \( pc week 04 15 92 03 15 93 \) oses pc dos 6 0 ibm 's version dos 6 0 runs windows much faster dos 6 0 due faster file video handling \( infoworld feb 1 , 93 \) dr dos 6 0 dos 5 0 extras like built data compression memory management enhancements still 640k 1mb barrier later version novell dos may use version mac finder apple file management system \( pc week 12 14 92 infoworld dec 14 92 \) os 2 2 0 unix like features unix like requirements 8 16mb ram , uses 17 hard drive , 386dx cpu 32 bit , multitasking os address 4gb ram use fast swap file use 16 mb ram isa systems using dma direct memory access ibm plans use taligent 's oops future versions \( infoworld oct 26 92 \) aix ibm 's unix system , planned subset taligent os nextstep gui unix provide next features ibm machines beta , final version may 25 , 1993 solaris os x86 sunsoft port 32 bit os symmetric multiprocessing multithreading , built networking capabilities tools allow remote configuring adminstration features , communication package client 795 , 50 users server 1 , 995 , users server 5 , 995 developer kits software 495 , hardware 195 mac 7 1 working name star trek apple system 7 0 running intel chips looking making 7 1 version available ibm \( nov 2 92 macweek 03 22 93 \) present planned run top novell 's dr dos , require 486 equivalent run apps need recompiled \( macweek 03 22 93 \) viewed novell 's answer windows nt complexity pc hardware set ups one reason slow progress seems apple ibm 's way leading powerpc line late 1993 early 1994 pink os late 1994 early 1995 powerpc rumor ibm build powerpc 601 late 1993 \( infoworld june 8 15 , 92 macweek 7 13 92 pc week 3 15 93 \) microchannel bus xga video \( carl b \) , run native version aix mac apps \( pc week 3 15 93 \) comments dos windows apps apple 's powerpc 601 machine planned jan 24 , 1994 mc98601 50 mhz , 4 8mb ram , 2 8 mbyte floppy drive expected sale near lc line prices 2000 , projections 3000 \( macuser 9 92 146 \) \( macweek 3 22 93 \) ux 4 0 32 bit multitasking os planned run powerpcs 68030 40 macs \( macweek 7 13 92 \) intel compatibility uncertain \( see mac 7 1 \) planned base requirements 68030 , 8mb ram , 80mb hard drive \( macweek 4 19 93 \) rumor ahead schedule could mid 1993 rumor could os ibm 's powerpc 601 due late 1993 pink taligent os expecting delivery 1994 \( wall street journal 1 12 92 \) may parts shipping os 2 aix 1993 mac os powerpcs \( macweek 01 25 93 \) windows nt possible port \( macweek 04 05 93 \) see ibm os section details solaris os version sun microsystems inc unix os run power pcs 1994 \( macweek 04 05 93 \) one oses directly state run windows dos programs ibm os section details nextstep possible port see ibm os section details os number crunching \( mel park \) mac arithmetic done consistent numerical environment sane standard apple environment floating point numbers 96 bits long fpu present 80 bits otherwise exceptions , dividing zero taking square root negative number , cause abort handled logically consistent manner 1 0 produces internal representation infinity \( inf \) 1 \( 1 0 \) produces zero treatment 1 \( 1 0 \) occurs fpu equipped machine even sane fpu programmed directly ibm floating point numbers 80 bits hardware fpu , 64 bits way handled dependent coding whatever compiler assembler used program older dos exceptions could cause program 1 0 1 \( 1 0 \) would abort dos prompt point occured present compilers handle better result little consistent handling numbers dos , windows os 2 programs programs one os networking includes printing wysiwyg printing problem either mac ibm machines especially one sends truetype fonts older style postscript printer mac hardware built localtalk network port built printer port localtalk moderate speeds \( 230 4 kb \) requires special connectors machine \( 15 \) run either printer port include old macs network port standard today built ethernet becoming common many older macs require pds nubus card 150 300 machine cards provide three connectors transceivers thick , thin , 10baset ethernet macintosh quadra family centris models includes ethernet interface motherboard , transceivers available network option since 1989 software appletalk suite protocols standard mac os , use variety media types appleshare client software included os well connect file servers novell netware , 3com 3 open , , dec pathworks , apple 's appleshare servers , system 7 file sharing machines , afp servers running variety unix hosts mactcp allows typical tcp ip communications \( telnet , ftp , nfs , rlogin \) later version unix x open transport interface \( \) built end 1993 \( macweek 04 12 93 \) third party software connect nfs servers dec pathworks provides decnet support peer peer file sharing software built system 7 1 \( see os section \) full server software extra printing requires connection printer printer selected chooser changing printers selecting different name chooser true connecting servers printing bugs monaco truetype font different screen bitmap font quickdraw qx suppossed fix similar problems ibm hardware localtalk widely used , ethernet , software novell netware , , decnet , windows work groups , appletalk protocols , appleshare subset appletalk ms dos networking schemes , general , totally incompatible others chosen one , pretty much locked product line windows work groups little forgiving removes problem novell netware biggest , 80 percent corporate market general powerful offers better control management security appleshare , 's also complex set manage change due use mac finder file management system novell \( pc week 12 14 92 12 28 92 infoworld dec 14 92 macweek 3 22 93 \) printing os dependent dos 's single user , plug printer parallel port , n't worry may needed poorly written software network printing controlled system , mostly implemented actual program , therefore performance varies one software program next windows 3 x supports standard drivers good job showing jobs print queue , always lists printers active even becomes problem several incompatible printers net , 's way software reliably determine printer active right windows workgroups mac like intelligent os 2 mac like os deals printers , apps making calls os printing bugs due poor programing programs oses wysiwyg printing fault programs question os involved price issue dynamic mac providing build features ibm ibm 'get mac price wars worlds ibm nature prevents kind true hardware , turn requires oses programs complex handle variation hardware one adds standard mac hardware features ibm built input output sound support , scsi , pds , built monitor support , built networking , standard mouse interface , nubus 90 higher machines mac tends cheaper equivalent ibm machine especially since ibm monitors used macs cuts mac 's cost \( macuser aug 1992 158 176 \) prices using info sheet macuser april 1993 macs come pds slot , vram , scsi 1 built except noted , monitor extra built monitor interface provided card needed except 24 bit color display ibm planned 1 , 200 25mhz model hard drive color vga monitor vram \( macweek 8 17 92 \) sounds like color classic without scsi 1 , sound support , built network support , fpu socket , built expansion 16 bit color , etc color classic 1 , 389 030 16mhz 16 bit data bus 386sx 20mhz equivalent , 4 80 , fpu socket , built monitor lciii 1 , 499 030 25mhz 386dx 33mhz equivalent , 4 160 centris 610 2 , 899 68lc040 20mhz depending program 486sx 40 20 40 mhz equivalent , 8 230 , built ethernet , 300i cd rom , pds nubus 90 slot vram 16 bit color centris 650 040 25mhz depending program 486dx 50 mhz 486dx2 50 mhz equivalent pds 3 nubus 90 slots 3 , 189 ethernet , 8 80 3 , 559 ethernet , 8 230 3 , 999 ethernet , 8 230 , cd rom , vram 16 bit color bibliography notes available digest vapor directory ftp sumex aim stanford edu 36 44 0 6 murphy last issue april 93 ibmpc back issues available wsmr simtel20 army mil directory archives ibmpc computer terms 3rd ed ' \( 0 5 \) facts known 4 15 93 may changed new developments , announcements , corrections corrections information welcome please email corrections compuserve id , aol internet bgrubb dante nmsu edu final note since comp sys ibm pc advocacy group posted closest relevent groups comp os ms windows advocacy , comp os os2 advocacy , comp sys ibm pc misc also since mac vs ibm articles showing comp sys mac hardware included newsgroup posting n't site comp sys mac faq reason post comp sys mac hardware , since faq follow internet guidelines , especially de facto faqs newgroup hierarchy posted newsgroups hierarchy standard eliminate impossible ever remains , matter improbable , truth sir arthur doyle sherlock holmes adventure , adventure soldier , sign four adventure bruce plans computer friend rpg
cc nctu edu tw \( \) subject hi could join \? organization national chiao tung university x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 7 hi anybody known much buy ethernet card mac se \? besides , goto buy buy mail order , brand suitable mac se \( network wire \) thanks lot could anybody tell \? thank
mikael fredriksson mikael fredriksson se subject quadra scsi problems \? \? \? x mailer telefinder \( version 3 0 \) organization mac exchange bbs bbs 46 31 , fax 46 31 pl , 437 92 , sweden lines 5 article news udel edu , johnston udel edu \( bill johnston \) writes article 1993apr16 144750 1568 mintaka lcs mit edu nodine lcs mit edu \( mark h nodine \) writes n't know specific problem mentioned message , definitely scsi problems q700 venerable jasmine megadrive 10 cartridge drives solution get silverlining none loops involved blind writes worked drives op worked macintosh software loop \( whatever means \) doubt quadra specific problem get rid venerable bernoulli 20 last year \( enough cartridges purchased 90 make whole thing worth whole computer \) tech support guys ocean microsystems suggested third party drivers might fix problem case cartridges would n't format mount partition ux hat worked perfectly mac plus powerbook 140 reason assumed problem something quadra even quadra , mostly worked ok problem occurred ejected cartridge drive would start popping dialog boxes saying cartridge must formatted jasmine even though cartridge drive mark format \) confirmed apple computer sweden \( work apple dealer service tech \) problems quadras wanted format diskette syquest ther nothing drive problem fixed sytem 7 1 mikael fredriksson email mikael fredriksson se mac exchange bbs pl 437 92 sweden bbs 46 31 \( 5 lines \) fax 46 31 fido 2 203 211 disclaimer mac exchange bbs cannot held responsible contents message
ray netcom com \( ray fischer \) subject x86 680x0 \? \? \( compare \? \) organization netcom san jose , california distribution usa lines 30 rvenkate ux4 cso uiuc edu \( ravikuma venkateswar \) writes ray netcom com \( ray fischer \) writes 040 486 030 386 020 286 numbers \? kind benchmark \? benchmarks marketing cpu envy ok , make happy , 486 faster 040 architectures nearing end lifetimes especially x86 architecture good riddance besides , 0 wait state performance , 'd need cache anyway mean , uses processor runs speed 80ns simms \? note memory speed corresponds clock speed 12 5 mhz point processor speed one many aspects computers performance clock speed , processor , memory speed , cpu architecture , systems , even application program contribute overall system performance roughly , 68040 twice fast given clock speed 68030 numbers \? look ray fischer convictions dangerous enemies truth ray netcom com lies friedrich nietzsche
ray netcom com \( ray fischer \) subject x86 680x0 \? \? \( compare \? \) organization netcom san jose , california lines 11 d88 jwa hemul nada kth se \( jon wtte \) writes interesting comparision fast clock cycle chips get alpha way slow 66 mhz , blazes 200 mhz problem going finding someone make computer system could tough ray fischer convictions dangerous enemies truth ray netcom com lies friedrich nietzsche
ray netcom com \( ray fischer \) subject share one monitor w 2 cpus \? organization netcom san jose , california lines 13 bm967 cleveland freenet edu \( david kantrowitz \) writes centris 610 want get ibm machine well save space desk , would like use one monitor , switch box anyone know way \? sure buy switch box multisync monitor arrangement desk works fine ray fischer convictions dangerous enemies truth ray netcom com lies friedrich nietzsche
gene jackatak raider net \( gene wright \) subject sound recording mac portable answer \( lead \) organization jack 's amazing cockroach capitalist ventures lines 7 whatever equipment work mac plus mac se work fine mac portable n't sound input , equipment works fine models mentioned macuser macworld gene jackatak raider net \( gene wright \) jackatak raider net \( 615 \) 377 5980
web 3h berkeley edu \( james wang \) subject calling mac gurus organization university california , berkeley lines 17 distribution world nntp posting host web 3h berkeley edu article usenet ins cwru edu charles p cox , jr cox snowhite eeap cwru edu writes question familiar quadra vram put 2 256k vram simms quadra 700 \( 2 slots closest ram simm slots \) got results whatsoever told built video support least 16bit maybe 24bit color macintosh color display however , monitors control panel still lists 8bit \( 256 colors \) highest possible q700 8bit 24bit color want higher color depth , 's 2mb 's vram altogether monitor 16 21 monitor , get 8bit max hope answers questions james wang
cue bc ca \( james macphail \) subject q700 34 5mhz , 's fine nntp posting host cue bc ca organization computer using educators b c , canada lines 15 article 1993apr13 informatik tu muenchen de menes informatik tu muenchen de \( rainer menes \) writes wonder nobody ever tried replace oscilator , like mac iisi q700 running 66 666 mhz osc months number scsi devices connected \( quantum , maxtor 213 , toshiba via adapter , pioneer 600 \) trouble using stock cooling facilities , considered adding fan heat pump , n't feel necessary \( box anyway \) temp meter order plan measurements arrives weeks email want see results james macphail cue bc ca \( bounce , try james phy queensu ca \)
orly phakt usc edu \( mr \) subject help ! newly installed falcon 2 21 bombs se ! \( crashed internal hd \) organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 30 nntp posting host phakt usc edu help ! received falcon 2 2 1 upgrade spectrum today se running sys 7 0 1 4mb ram like instructions said , installed disk 2 \( program start screen music \) downloaded ftp apple com like said , installed system folder restarted mac hour later , would n't completely boot internal hd get happy mac , disappears , repeat cycle continuously never even get welcome macintosh message norton utilities fixed 12 new problems , thing still happened \? please e mail orly aludra usc edu thanks advance ! ! ! victor orly victor r orly try imagine life know , aka mr stopping , every molecule univ southern california body exploding speed light internet orly aludra usc edu spengler ,
avery gestalt stanford edu \( avery wang \) subject serial line connection duo 210 pc \? \? \? organization dso , stanford university lines 41 article 19930419 155 almaden ibm com petrack vnet ibm com writes tried almost everything sun get null modem connection mac duo 210 pc used mac side used procomm , kermit , \( os 2 \) pc \( ps \) side used non hardware handshaking hardware cables know hands shaking effort nothing allowed file transfers mac ps could hear someone really pump information serial port duo 210 fast \? like via modem via sys ex dump \? could anyone duo help \? \? going absolutely insane wanna know problem duo , duo , duos , hmmm sounds vaguely similar problem long time ago trying use kermit building serial connection duo 210 next think problem handshaking basically , need make sure handshaking protocol sides safe place start selecting handshaking either end one problem serial chip seems get permanently wedged talk wrong , reset clear n't know specifics could screws attempts debugging system could well things right eventually one wrong move \( like trying bad handshaking protocol \) screw correct actions , next machine reset wedged mac also next way send files back forth duo next without problem , pretty high speeds n't know kind chip pc uses , think pretty standard hope helps , avery
zen holonet net \( steve \) subject using setwutime \( \) pb170 nntp posting host zen holonet net organization holonet national internet access system 510 704 1058 modem lines 13 aep world std com \( andrew e page \) writes get mac go sleep , ca n't make seem make wake setwutime \( \) powerbook 170 hardware n't timer 140 mac portable one , think powerbook 100 one n't know newer powerbooks , kind doubt got bit , took rooting around developer cd found steve well sf ca us
\( \) subject quadra scsi problems \? \? \? organization apple computer inc lines 28 attention mac quadra owners many storage industry experts concluded mac quadras suffer timing irregularities deviating standard scsi specification results silent corruption data used devices , including ultra modern devices although name devices , since fault , example would sony 3 5 inch mo , without special mac compatible firmware installed one solution , sometimes , disable blind writes best knowledge n't problems quadras blind transfers trouble blind transfers usually means programmer screwed n't test driver device question well designed poll loop every point delays 16 sec occur usually occurs first byte block transfer devices middle blocks happens middle blind transfer possibility losing gaining byte depending direction tranfer going scsi manager eventually return phase error end transaction sync actual data loss would occur driver n't pay attention errors coming back note effect caused anything actually scsi bus rather transfer loops inside scsi manager problem occurs processor bus errors trying access scsi chip next byte n't clocked yet also note bus error dealt bus error handler n't crash machine clinton apple computer
maarten fwi uva nl \( maarten \) subject simm vs dram nntp posting host mail fwi uva nl organization fwi , university amsterdam lines 16 arthur greene p6 f204 n2603 z1 fidonet org \( arthur greene \) writes anyone tell difference 256k dram chip 256k simm \? need former \( think \) add memory laserwriter ls someone offering sell 256k simms removed se , feeling may correct form memory sockets laserwriter look like want shaped chips \( 4 sockets , , recall , 20 pins , arranged two rows 10 \) believe , 've never actually seen simm help appreciated simm small pcb dram chips soldered maarten real life maarten computer science department university amsterdam email maarten fwi uva nl
guykuo carson u washington edu \( guy kuo \) subject q700 34 5mhz , 's fine organization university washington lines 11 nntp posting host carson u washington edu q700 running 66 666 mhz osc months number scsi devices connected \( quantum , maxtor 213 , toshiba via adapter , pioneer 600 \) trouble done motherboard 's scsi interface \? possible bit experimenting plain old clock oscillators may order give us details please mad clock seattle guykuo u washington edu
lafibm lafayette edu \( \) subject half page hand scanners \? organization lafayette college lines 6 originator news nntp posting host lafibm anyone using greyscale i'm thinking buying one inexpensive logitech pretty good n't need super high quality scans want worth thanks advance mike charles
win tue nl \( tom \) subject deskwriter drivers 3 1 install \? organization eindhoven univ technology , netherlands lines 15 nntp posting host win tue nl keywords hp deskwriter , dw 3 1 , system 7 1 , installation recently upgraded system 7 1 also upgraded deskwriter drivers 2 2 3 1 got software sumex , clear install someone tell files come dw 3 1 go purpose \? left , instance , n't want background printing \? thanks , tom internet win tue nl eindhoven university technology voice 31 40 47 41 25 dept mathematics computing science fax 31 40 43 66 85 po box 513 , nl 5600 mb eindhoven , netherlands
mondrian csufresno edu \( andrew bravo \) subject asynch synch mac nntp posting host mondrian csufresno edu organization california state university , fresno lines 8 anyone good code drive serial port mode \? really need bad tia mondrian edu
mondrian csufresno edu \( marc matteo \) subject drive speeds differ \? \? keywords quantum , lps , speed nntp posting host mondrian csufresno edu organization california state university , fresno lines 13 hi , got la cie 240 meg external hard drive speed tests show 's substantially faster internal 105 meg quantum hd supposedly 105 240 \( lps drives \) roughly rated speed large difference \? marc marc matteo , applelink matteo california state university , internet mondrian csufresno edu fresno aol matteo
guykuo carson u washington edu \( guy kuo \) subject half page hand scanners \? organization university washington lines 12 nntp posting host carson u washington edu logitech scanman 32 nice unit , compact effective bring graphics surprisingly good quality note effective resolution grey scale mode 72 dpi n't intend graphic , works fine true 256 level gray scanner would work better images 've seen scanman go little 100 used reasonable buy price higher end hand scanners almost expensive used flat bed scanners seattle , paper shows occasional good bargains classifieds used color flat beds seen 500 lately grey scale come around 300 350
subject monitor shut 13 hi res eis calstate edu \( steven adams \) organization calif state univ electronic information services lines 34 luck however call local apple dealer said thinks serial numbers machines covered begin either 70 53 56 , maybe one also told apple extended service serial numbers another year ! ! ! still hope get monitor ! ! jeffh ludwig cc uoregon edu \( jeff hite \) writes article 1993apr15 guvax acc georgetown edu hew guvax acc georgetown edu writes defect 13 hi res monitors , bring dealer replace flyback free , think heard problem work today fixing free r r service notice 13 hi res monitors expired 3 23 93 date apple reimburse service providers fix \( replacement hi voltage capacitor \) folks putting without getting service provider missed freebie force year got free 3 23 , got deal jeff hite computing center u oregon jeffh ludwig cc uoregon edu
bauer informatik uni ulm de \( christian bauer \) subject q700 34 5mhz , 's fine nntp posting host christian informatik uni ulm de organization university ulm lines 23 article husc harvard edu , husc8 harvard edu \( patrick lee \) wrote menes informatik tu muenchen de \( rainer menes \) writes wonder nobody ever tried replace oscilator , like mac iisi understand newer variable speed overdrive hardware , alittle init use adjust speed replace oscilator wit h socket change oscilator easy alot cheaper newer variable speed overdrive would 20 50 need upgrade someone net ever tried variant speeding quadra 700 \? \? may issue c't magazine article upgrading 040 models apple simply change crystals add fan centris 610 able work 25 mhz \( cooler prefered \) 1000 dm get 68040 \( 33mhz \) works appropriate crystal full speed \( extra cooling required \) centris 650 like quadra 700 extra cooling 33mhz works machines real power enthusiasts used quadra 950 40 mhz wow ! better description get issue c't \( german pc magazine ! \) christian bauer bauer informatik uni ulm de
kemper informatik uni kl de \( michael kemper rhrk \) subject hard disk error organization university kaiserslautern lines 16 hi , run disk first aid external hard drive \( quantum lps 240 \) get message error 535 missing thread record \( 416 \) disk first aid able fix problem , norton utils n't find use norton disk editor look 416 read something like question get rid error \( without reformatting course \) michael kemper university kaiserslautern , germany email kemper rhrk uni kl de although gave email address , opinion rhrk , uni kl de !
ferch ucs ubc ca \( les ferch \) subject apple going ship cd300i 's \? organization university british columbia lines 5 nntp posting host swiss ucs ubc ca note get external cd300 centris q800 miss sound mixing feature unless willing run wire motherboard sound input connector stereo output cd connecting sound input port back computer wo n't unless live mono
d88 jwa eufrat nada kth se \( jon w tte \) subject x86 680x0 \? \? \( compare \? \) nntp posting host eufrat nada kth se organization royal institute technology , stockholm , sweden lines 18 netcom com ray netcom com \( ray fischer \) writes interesting comparision fast clock cycle chips get alpha way slow 66 mhz , blazes 200 mhz problem going finding someone make computer system could tough order one digital today cheers , h jon w tte , h nada kth se , mac hacker deluxe n't fear death , 's dying scares
d88 jwa eufrat nada kth se \( jon w tte \) subject se rom nntp posting host eufrat nada kth se organization royal institute technology , stockholm , sweden lines 21 1993apr20 1 mrl dsto gov au mrl dsto gov au writes reason apple could n't release software patches older computers \( lots mac pluses , classics ses upgraded 68020 68030 processors perfectly able deal color quickdraw \) wont , 3rd parties difficult one reason market size market size color quickdraw ses \( n't go beyond 4 mb anyway \) small extra cost would 1 , 000 money , buy color classic instead cheers , h jon w tte , h nada kth se , mac hacker deluxe n't fear death , 's dying scares
golum riv csu edu au \( michael antolovich \) subject ethernet card uses rose \? organization charles sturt university riverina , wagga wagga , nsw , australia lines 11 article aaron bratcher fpm mac 1 uchicago edu aaron bratcher fpm uchicago edu \( aaron bratcher \) writes anyone know ethernet card takes advantage rose extension \? hey rose extension anyway \? michael michael antolovich wagga wagga , great place csu edu au antolovich riv csu edu au
golum riv csu edu au \( michael antolovich \) subject torx 15 screwdriver organization charles sturt university riverina , wagga wagga , nsw , australia lines 18 article austin ibm com login austin ibm com writes ago owned plus wanted upgrade memory , ordered toolkit macwarehouse something like 9 included anti static wrist strap , clamp used split case , torx screwdriver might selling anymore , give 'em \( company sells memory upgrades suitable plus style box \) call 'll bet still offer kit next day air usually shipping method used , ! i'm told companies often sell plastic , throw away one use , version torx driver , ask buy michael michael antolovich wagga wagga , great place csu edu au antolovich riv csu edu au
guykuo carson u washington edu \( guy kuo \) subject quadra clock works organization university washington lines 11 nntp posting host carson u washington edu summary quadra clock chip swap success keywords quadra , clock , accelerate reading reports germany success accelerating quadra centris simply changing clock oscillator , decided test claim pulled variable speed overdrive motherboard 's 50 mhz clock chip put socket clock 's place inserted 64 mhz ttl clock oscillator left working si 's ca n't believe actually works i'm getting scsi timing errors either short run time 'll keep posting results spend money vso nothing \? keeps working , lack double boot worth effort guy kuo guykuo u washington edu
uniwa uwa edu au \( andrew nielsen \) subject plotter ppd \? organization university western australia lines 13 distribution world nntp posting host uniwa uwa edu au x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 hello world , anyone know postscript ppd a0 size plotter , generally accessed via postscript interpreter \? replies e mail gratefully received proving quite tricky one andrew nielsen internet dialix oz au advanced systems consultant applelink perth 69 adelaide tel 61 9 perth wa australia fax 61 9 opinions expressed , employer
bredell tdb uu se \( mats bredell \) subject quadra 900 startup w monitor ya right reply mats bredell udac uu se organization uppsala university computing center \( udac \) x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 16 shawn fitzgerald \( chungkuo umcc umcc umich edu \) wrote fix \? quadra 900 finish startup unless monitor connected would problem , since 're running file server , need monitor connected time 've seen control panel made n't remember name , saw , quadra models work know exists \) mats mats bredell mats bredell udac uu se uppsala university computing center \( udac \) ph 46 18 department medical systems fax 46 18 sweden think straight gay !
peter hansen pgmoffc bnr ca subject simm vs dram x xxdate tue , 20 apr 93 08 39 46 gmt nntp posting host organization bnr x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d17 lines 24 article zeus ieee org arthur greene , arthur greene p6 f204 n2603 z1 fidonet org writes anyone tell difference 256k dram chip 256k simm \? need former \( think \) add memory laserwriter ls someone offering sell 256k simms removed se , feeling may correct form memory sockets laserwriter look like want shaped chips \( 4 sockets , , recall , 20 pins , arranged two rows 10 \) believe , 've never actually seen simm help appreciated 256k dram chip 256 chip whereas 256k simm 256 memory module simm pcb 30 pin connector edge simm 8 256 dram chips \( making total memory 256 kbytes correct assuming simms fit laserwriter apple printers either require 64 pin simms like mac iifx special memory chips contact apple dealer find exactly kind chips need peter hansen bell northern research pgmoffc bnr ca
peter hansen pgmoffc bnr ca subject 72 pin simms , \? x xxdate tue , 20 apr 93 08 41 49 gmt nntp posting host organization bnr x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d17 lines 13 article charnel ecst csuchico edu steven medley , smedley ecst csuchico edu writes looking 8 meg 72 pin simm centris 610 best place purchase one \( stock , shipping , warrenty \) , possible , phone numbers order one soon possible try make , available immediately mac configurations ordered pair \( 8 meg variety \) work like charm 've two weeks peter hansen bell northern research pgmoffc bnr ca
cs cmu edu \( christopher \) subject buying high speed v everything modem nntp posting host mach cs cmu edu organization school computer science , carnegie mellon lines 38 article 1993apr20 rs6000 cmp ilstu edu behr math ilstu edu \( eric behr \) writes dataport earns nearly unanimous praises reliability moment , probably special 299 price effect may fax capabilities worse two modems warning ads say modem comes mac kit \( cables \) , lifetime warranty applies order directly paradyne ! called \( one distributors \) , wanted charge 16 cable , gave 1 year warranty hmm , n't know information concerning cable warranty came ordered mine logos communications , near cleveland , inside mac cable \( correct pin connections \) \) lifetime warranty whole package assembled paradyne , every piece \( serial cable , telephone cable , etc \) part numbers , except software package compuserve intro kit eric behr , illinois state university , mathematics department behr math ilstu edu behr ilstu bitnet \( please avoid ! \) anyone 's interested , logos number \( 800 \) 837 ordered mine last wednesday got modem friday , though 's far cleveland pittsburgh \) side ship ups cod chris christopher p electrical computer eng dept ece cmu edu carnegie mellon university \( 412 \) 268 5000 forbes ave pittsburgh , pa 15213
dhhalden \( frode \) subject apple 13 brighter nntp posting host organization ostfold regional college lines 4 apple 13 rgb monitor past months gone brighter brighter colors rich anyone encountered similar problem \? anyone happen know problem may due \?
aep world std com \( andrew e page \) subject setwutime works pb 230 organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 12 tested 230 work would seem 140 170 though one way tell go open powerbook control panel \( 7 1 \) setting allows set time wake mac present open control panel , assume setwutime work andrew e page \( warrior poet \) decision effort archer arrow mac consultant difference macintosh dsp technology want
leapman austin ibm com \( scott leapman \) subject half page hand scanners \? originator leapman junior austin ibm com reply login austin ibm com organization ibm austin lines 8 lightening scan pro 256 hand scanner came scanning editing software , ocr software , plug modules photoshop et al scanner tad pricey side \( 480 \) , scans incredibly accurate , 256 level , 300 dpi grayscale also dithered line art settings grayscale n't desired great scanning software , easy use frequently write letters , include scanned image note hope helps !
watson ibm com subject cache card iisi news software ibm os 2 pm rn \( nr 2 \) v0 17h vishnepolsky r rogers lines 18 reply vnet ibm com disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host torolab ibm com organization ibm toronto lab last week , mac 's place applied engineering quicksilver card \( 32k cache , one pds slot , socket fpu \) sale 99 00 \( without fpu \) regular price 199 idea still going , get phone anyone interested \( found ad macuser \) people cache cards please post speedometer numbers get cards one report , seems indicate 32k cache card gives 1 speedup ! ! access memory takes longer cache card \( get miss \) thus small cache card 32k may worth 0 n't know kind numbers 64k cards get also found interesting disable cache cards via software \( read mac iisi tech notes ftp apple com \) 99 good deal , still n't know
blob apple com \( brian \) subject drivers cd rom organization apple computer , inc , cupertino , california lines 44 nntp posting host apple com jeeves ucsd edu \( scott kelley \) writes anybody know could find driver future echo sic 600 cd rom drive \? friend running drive pc would like use mac contacts generic cd rom drivers optical access international 800 west cummings park , suite 2050 \( 617 \) 937 \( 617 \) 937 fax applelink oai fwb , inc polk street , suite 215 san francisco , ca \( 415 \) 474 \( 415 \) 775 fax applelink fwb optical media international 180 knowles drive los , ca \( 408 \) 376 3511 \( 408 \) 376 fax applelink trantor systems \( intel architecture machines \) randall place fremont , ca \( 415 \) 770 1400 applelink trantor software \( verified \) north creek parkway n suite 202 , wa applelink dev blanca works \( verified \) 415 461 applelink send message someone applelink , use form address applelink apple com address replaced appropriate applelink address brian blob apple com opinion , apple 's
jartsu hut fi \( jartsu \) subject 512 kb vram simms \? nntp posting host lk hp 20 hut fi reply jartsu vipunen hut fi organization helsinki university technology , finland lines 12 hi ! could kind soul tell price lc iivi iivx compatible vram simms us nowadays \? price \( finland \) ridiculously high \( 185 usd \) think worth trouble try get overseas thanks jartsu
distribution world elenay creations tcs las vegas nv us \( anthony saxton \) organization cyber sanctum bbs 702 435 subject long ram simm 's last \? lines 10 n't 1 mb simm 1024 1024 8 moving flip flops \? n't move , anybody much bigger electron \) 're like charging discharging capacitors dram simm \) anthony saxton elenay creations
distribution world ken bmug org organization bmug , inc subject iisi question lines 11 si single expansion slot , either pds nubus , together card lies parallel motherboard hd requires adaptor slot nubus pds cards thus , kind slots depends kind adapter card exception radius rocket , nubus cards know work si pds slots thus cards mac specific , thus pds cards work macs planet bmug , firstclass bbs bmug message contained posting way reflect bmug 's official views
distribution world david schnider bmug org organization bmug , inc subject desi pb upgrade lines 9 anyone know exactly digital eclipse upgrades \? someone suggesting chips may able perform 33mhz true , , desi deal \? david planet bmug , firstclass bbs bmug message contained posting way reflect bmug 's official views
jartsu hut fi \( jartsu \) subject good display card 14 multisync \? nntp posting host lk hp 20 hut fi reply jartsu vipunen hut fi organization helsinki university technology , finland lines 20 hi ! wonder anyone knows recommend good nubus display card driving 14 multisync \( nec 3d \) \? nec 3d horizontal refresh 15 5 khz 38 khz vertical 50 hz 90 hz max 1024x768 interlaced , though looking something like 800x600 832x624 noninterlaced would nice find card programmed quite freely within limits capable display least 8bits pixel , preferably anything market comes even close \? thanks jartsu
jartsu hut fi \( jartsu \) subject good hard disk driver non apple drives \? \( sys 7 1 compat \) nntp posting host lk hp 20 hut fi reply jartsu vipunen hut fi organization helsinki university technology , finland lines 14 hi ! recommendation good hard disk driver software non apple drives \? would mainly need syquest removable media drive , maybe normal drives heard seen good things silverlining , n't know competitors need fancy , filled features like affordable thanks jartsu
hades coos dartmouth edu \( brian v hughes \) subject adding vram quadra 800 \? keywords vram quadra 800 reply hades dartmouth edu organization dartmouth college , hanover , nh disclaimer personally , really n't care think speak moderator rec arts comics info lines 15 wstuartj lucky ecn purdue edu \( w stuart jones \) writes want go 512k 1m vram quadra 800 many 512k simms need buy \? none need buy 2 80ns 256k vram simms cost 30 favorite memory distributor current 512k soldered board need take current vram add \? 512k soldered logic board 2 simm slots expansion hades
dtc uucp \( dennis cheung \) subject psi 5 organization network , long island , new york lines 15 anyone psi 's 5 \? please contact \( really good 14 4 modem 14 4 fax macintosh \) via uci v1 35 \( c net amiga \) dennis cheung dtc \( tm \) corporation america america online dtc internet dtc com disclaimer never read message message n't exist
d88 jwa hemul nada kth se \( jon w tte \) subject drive speeds differ \? \? keywords quantum , lps , speed nntp posting host hemul nada kth se organization royal institute technology , stockholm , sweden lines 19 4gb zimmer csufresno edu mondrian csufresno edu \( marc matteo \) writes got la cie 240 meg external hard drive speed tests show 's substantially faster internal 105 meg quantum hd supposedly 105 240 \( lps drives \) roughly rated speed large difference \? could better caching disk could faster coil seeks could disk spins faster data transfers faster could data packed tighter transfers faster could faster scsi command decoder drive among things jon w tte , h nada kth se , mac hacker deluxe engineering work \? science work \? management work \? liberal arts want fries \? jesse n
dale adams gateway qm apple com \( dale adams \) subject adding vram quadra 800 \? organization apple computer , inc , cupertino , ca lines 13 article wstuartj lucky ecn purdue edu wstuartj lucky ecn purdue edu \( w stuart jones \) writes want go 512k 1m vram quadra 800 many 512k simms need buy \? current 512k soldered board need take current vram add \? need add two 256k vram simms 512k vram simms work quadra centris machines already 512k vram soldered logic board add two 256k simms give total 1 mb dale adams
newton cs utexas edu \( peter newton \) subject cache card iisi organization cs dept , university texas austin lines 64 nntp posting host cs utexas edu people cache cards please post speedometer numbers get cards one report , seems indicate 32k cache card gives 1 speedup ! ! ok record shows iisi without 64kb cache 's small enough attach also measured real programs without 64 kb cache speedup varies lot app app , ranging 0 40 think average 20 25 right subjective difference great , sometimes noticable simple cache card certainly transform iisi something enormously better fpu conventional wisdom says cache cards makers offer speedup much difference 32k 64k caches bought mine third wave well 150 absolutely problems get complete speedometer runs 32k cache , 'd like see let 's check conventional wisdom ! called performance rating numbers interest cheers \( file must converted binhex 4 0 \) , ! 9 ! ! ! ! ! ! 'a ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! \( h \) ! ! ! \( \( h hcl \) \) ! u \) \) n \( j ! u ! ! ! u \) uu \) ! ! ! l3 ! ! uu ! ut ! ! ud ! ! ! ! ! \) l \) ! ! ! \) ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! \) ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! j ! b8 9 ! ! ! ! ! ! \( j \) b ! p us \) , b \) 1i k ! , , l , , 6 ! \( zv b 9 \( ik q6 p \( \( ! \( pa k \( \) , , ha vr \( \( , \( 9k u h \( 9u jad 1 g vf \( , ! fj pj ei q \) 1 \( , \( \( 0 \( 6 \( ! ! h da , ! p ti \) ! ! ej gs ! q ! ! 2p ! \) \) vi \) c ` e ! r \) tr ! cr ! \) 2 cc \) xl lj1 \( rb 5p \( 9 dm \( \) v \( f2 , ! ! , , \( aj f` hj ! ! \) c ! \( ! nr \) \( hk a2 r bz , , ! gl ! gl ! ge ! \( j 4 \( j ! p \) h ! hn ! ! , q plk q \( 8 i8 l` ! , , , b \) ' ! ! f vp f f \( j \) , mp \) b \) , q ! \( eb \( p pi , z f , 3 e \( uc , ! ! ! ! ! 3 ! ! ! ! ! \) 6 \( 0 3c 1r \) 33 ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! b9 ! ! ! ! ! , ap ! ! ! peter newton \( newton cs utexas edu \)
dlc umcc umcc umich edu \( david \) subject apple going ship cd300i 's \? organization umcc , ann arbor , mi lines 43 nntp posting host umcc umcc umich edu article senator bedfellow mit edu thewho athena mit edu \( derek fong \) writes interestingly enough , cdrom 300i came quadra 800 8 disks 1 system install 2 kodak photo cd sampler 3 alice ocean 4 cdrom titles 5 application demos 6 mozart dissonant 7 8 apple chronicles anyone else noticed got less everyone seems getting external \? really feel missed supposed fantastic games demo disk heard people gotten 9 10 disks drive assume get 8 titles plus cinderella games demo cdrom comments experiences \? call apple complain \? \) derek thewho plume mit edu get drive \( cd300i \) system install cd listed 1 ideas get one \? bought iivx 8 120 direct express chicago \( complaints good price good service \) btw , 've heard system install cd used boot mac however , drive accept cd caddy machine boot \? dave dlc umcc ais org 313 485
drlovemd jhunix hcf jhu edu \( steve liu \) subject source deskwriter ink carts organization homewood academic computing , johns hopkins university , baltimore , md , usa lines 21 nntp posting host jhunix hcf jhu edu could someone please e mail post cheap source ink carts hp deskwriter \? original hp carts preferred , settle third party brands good quality tttttt eeeee vv vv eeeee tt ee vv vv ee tt eeee vv vv eeee steve liu tt ee vvv ee drlovemd jhunix hcf jhu edu tt eeeee v eeeee drlovemd jhuvms hcf jhu edu
ingemar isy liu se \( ingemar \) subject stereo sound problem \( \? \) mac games organization dept ee , university linkoping lines 45 steve bollinger buzz apple com writes enter game developers sound driver current sound manager lame making games sound driver pretty ok , since 's fast sound manager used book useless sound channels soon sound completed question games smooth animation \( 's slow \) sound driver much sound manager unfortunately , system 7 supports poorly , making programs crash occasionally story developers cheat ! really , absolutely , positively allowed , i'm going say anyway stop cheating sound ! really soon , sorry , even without external speakers disappointed sound future hardware grace period end sound manager understandable , works pretty well work even better soon , use well , want code work old systems n't know sys 7 1 , least 6 0 7 , bugs sound manager causes channels hang \( error message \) keep channel open long periods necessary performance play many sounds , stopping sounds halfway callbacks seems reliable way safely tell sound stopped playing inspect private variables channel \( , think \) , way found tell channel hung inspect undocumented flag modify happy \? nope consider writing soundbase simply get rid bugs better suggestions \? \( silent games among e solutions \) ingemar dept electrical engineering ! uunet ! mcvax ! enea ! rainier ! ingemar university linkoping , sweden ingemar isy liu se
corona hsc usc edu \( daniel chen \) subject buying high speed v everything modem organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 2 nntp posting host corona hsc usc edu hardware handshaking want use \? dan
distribution world hyerstay adrenaline com \( jason hyerstay \) organization adrenaline online , \( 802 \) 425 2332 , firstclass bbs subject mac oriented bbss chicago lines 28 member local bbs frequent looking mac oriented bbss based chicago leads would appreciated list firstclass systems illinois chicago machine chicago , il \( 312 \) 233 insane domain chicago , il \( 312 \) 274 mac universe bbs chicago , il \( 312 \) 235 net , il \( 815 \) 968 , il \( 708 \) 251 vernon hills , il \( 708 \) 918 1231 anyone wants numbers firstclass systems , would glad post complete list jason hyerstay adrenaline admin adrenaline online \( firstclass \) \( 802 \) 425 2332 , vt free access ! ! 16 8k hst dual fidonet usenet 120 conferences megs files dedicated mac users , , civil libertarians
ams auspex com \( allan schwartz \) subject making internal hard disk external organization auspex systems , santa clara lines 29 nntp posting host auspex auspex com difficult operation cables standard , except scsi id scsi id usually three jumper pads labelled a0 a2 trying put 40mb drive lc case conner ca n't figure jumpers scsi id jumpers anyone familiar drive \? end drive \( 50 pin connector \) , eleven pins look like 1 2 l5 pins , l5 represent silk screen notation near pins elsewhere board four jumper pads marked e1 , e2 , e3 , e4 silk screen anyone know scsi id a0 , a1 , a2 pins , drive activity light led plugged \? allan allan schwartz 1 408 492 0900 ams auspex com
blast nntp crl com \( tim keanini \) subject mac scsi spec \? lines 20 nntp posting host crl com know wired scsi chain bought drive need find hardcore scsi question iifx scsi chain want see active passive termination \? iifx scsi spec want enable initiation message \? iifx scsi spec want far parity checking \? good questions faq someone time answer questions know look please let know repost answers everyone see thanks , tim keanini broder com blast crl com sound engineer software
us oracle com \( forrest howard \) subject duo 230 crashes aftersleep nntp posting host us oracle com organization oracle corp x disclaimer message written unauthenticated user oracle corporation opinions expressed user necessarily oracle lines 33 add list bugged 230 owners bunch problems regarding sleep restart 230 first got , without techworks ram finally died , would n't start , opened docking door \( snaps open \) machine came fine , clock decades apple replaced processor board , twice machine frozen \( mouse action \) twice machine refused wake acutally , came , disk spins power adaptor plugged \( good battery \) first time happened removing power adaptor battery 1 minute brought machine back second time happened machine would n't wake powered 30 minutes screen looked like red horizontal lines accross file fax modem preferences corrupted according \) removed fax modem software , third party memory , waiting see happens forrest forrest howard oracle corporation 500 oracle parkway box redwood shores , ca 94065
eric choi p5 f175 n2240 z1 fidonet org \( eric choi \) subject mac portable vs powerbook 100 answers \( \? \) organization fidonet node 1 2240 175 5 association mac bbs , grand blanc mi lines 8 internal hard drive upgraded larger capacity \? specs \? 3 1 2 drive \? lps model \? third party modem greater 2400 bps \? fax option \? p notice batteries thru apple catalog eric choi internet eric choi p5 f175 n2240 z1 fidonet org
maynard leah msc cornell edu \( maynard j \) subject quickdraw gx \( rest inside mac 's due \? \) organization cornell materials science center lines 21 'll releasing whole new suite quickdraw gx related docs 're going next month 'll get preliminary version documentation cd 're talking multiple thousands pages , i'm afraid gx \( comprising graphics , layout printing \) lots new api calls functionality , need documenting dave opstad gx line layout weenie gx take place 32 bit qd add \? right 32 bit kinda aesthetically pain places hacks upon hacks maintain compatibility original qd think things like cast would lot cleaner ditch entire mess start get \? maynard
distribution world e mullen org organization seattle mac return receipt e mullen org subject pb 100 non apple printer lines 8 workaround enable print powerbook 100 \? \( actually i'm going 4m ethernet card localtalk slot ! ! ! \) hardware enable easily \( kind plug play ! \) thanks , pam mullen message sent member seattle mac 's exchange bbs po box , seattle , wa usa infoline \( 206 \) 624
chongo toad com \( landon c noll \) subject 10th international obfuscated c code contest opening \( 1 2 \) keywords ioccc article toad expires 7 may 93 00 00 00 gmt reply chongo toad com uucp \( landon c noll \) distribution world organization nebula consultants san francisco lines 850 enclosed rules , guidelines related information 10th international obfuscated c code contest \( part 1 2 part shar file \) enjoy ! chongo landon curt noll oo larry bassel ! bin sh shell archive \( shar 3 32 \) made 03 01 1993 12 01 utc chongo toad com source directory tmp existing files overwritten shar contains length mode name r r r rules r r r guidelines r r r mkentry c r r r obfuscate info rules echo x extracting rules \( text \) sed 's x ' 'shar eof' rules international obfuscated c code contest rules x xcopyright \( c \) landon curt noll larry bassel , 1993 xall rights reserved permission personal , education non profit use xgranted provided copyright notice included entirety xand remains unaltered uses must receive prior permission writing xfrom landon curt noll larry bassel x x obfuscate tr v , , 1 render obscure x b darken 2 confuse emotions obfuscated x judgment , darken ob \( intensive \) x lat , darken , dark obfuscation n x adj x x contest x x write obscure obfuscated c program rules x show importance programming style , ironic way x stress c compilers unusual code x illustrate c language x provide safe forum poor c code \) x x x x help us volume entries , ask follow rules x x 1 \) entry must complete program x x 2 \) entry must 3217 bytes length number characters x excluding whitespace \( tab , space , newline \) , excluding x followed either whitespace end file , must 1536 x x 3 \) entry must submitted following format x x entry 1993 n \( n new entry , replaces older entry \) title entry \( see comments \) xentry entry number 0 7 inclusive \( 1st entry 0 \) date time submission utc \( see comments \) xhost machine \( \) os \( \) entry tested x use tab indented lines needed x remark x place remarks entry section would helpful x indent remarks 4 spaces , though x requirement also , possible , try avoid going beyond x column blank lines permitted x author xname name xorg school company organization xaddr postal address x use tab indented lines continue x n't forget include country xemail email address well known site registered domain x give several forms , list separate tab indented lines xanon n \( remain anonymous , n ok publish info \) x info xif program needs info file , place uuencoded copy section case multiple info files , use multiple info entry need info file , skip section x build uuencoded copy command \( \) used compile build program xin section must uudecode file named 'build' resulting xfile must 255 bytes less x program uuencoded copy program section must uudecode file named c' resulting file must follow rule 2 x end x x regarding format x x title must match expression za z0 9 za z0 9 x must 1 12 characters length x x suggested , required , title x incorporate username case multiple authors , x consider using parts authors x x date entry section given respect x utc format date returned asctime \( \) x using c locale \( see guidelines info \) x x may correct revise previously submitted entry sending x contest email address sure set 'fix' x entry section 'n' corrected entry must use x title entry number corrected x sure note resubmittion remark well x x exception header , text outside x format may ignored judges need tell judges x something , put remark section , send separate x email message judges x x information author section published unless x 'y' given respective author 's line x x credit multiple authors , include author section x author start author line , x found entry build sections x x entry 's remarks include x program x run program \( sample args input \) x special compile execution instructions , x special filename requirements \( see rule 4 5 \) x information data files x think program obfuscated x note entry submission previous entry x remarks \( humorous otherwise \) x x rot13 entry 's remarks may suggest certain x portions remarks entry wins award x x info files used supplement entry x required exist x x entry need info file , skip info x section entry needs multiple info files , use multiple x info sections , one per info file describe x info file remark section x x 4 \) entry selected winner , modified follows x x 'build' incorporated makefile , 'build' removed x c' renamed entry 's title , followed optional x digit , followed ' c' x entry compiled file name entry 's x title , possibly followed digit x x entry requires build file exist , state x entry 's remark section makefile arranged execute x build shell script containing 'build' information name x build shell script entry 's title , possibly followed x digit , followed ' x x needed , entry 's remarks indicate entry must x changed order deal new filenames x x 5 \) build file , source resulting executable x treated read files entry needs modify files , x make modify copy appropriate file x occurs , state entry 's remarks x x 6 \) entries cannot compiled ansi c compiler rejected x use common c \( k r extensions \) permitted , long x cause compile errors ansi c compilers x x 7 \) program must original work programs must x public domain copyrighted programs rejected x x 8 \) entries must received prior 07 may 93 0 00 utc \( utc x essentially equivalent greenwich mean time \) email entries x x ! apple , pyramid , sun , uunet ! hoptoad ! obfuscate x obfuscate toad com x x request message use subject x x possible , request hold emailing entries x 1 mar 93 0 00 utc early entries accepted , however x attempt email confirmation first author x entries received 1 mar 93 0 00 utc x x 9 \) person may submit 8 entries per contest year entry x must sent separate email letter x x 10 \) entries requiring human interaction built allowed x compiling entry produce file \( files \) may executed x x 11 \) programs require special privileges \( setuid , , super user , x special owner group \) allowed x x xfor information x x judging done landon noll larry bassel please send x questions comments \( entries \) contest , x x ! apple , pyramid , sun , uunet ! hoptoad ! judges x judges toad com x x rules guidelines may \( often \) change year x year sure current rules guidelines x prior submitting entries obtain 3 , send email x address use subject 'send rules' x x one may also obtain via anonymous ftp x x host ftp uu net \( 137 39 1 9 \) x user anonymous x pass yourname yourhost x dir pub ioccc x x landon curt noll cc hoptoad ! chongo bassel uunet , ucbvax , sun ! lab shar eof chmod 0444 rules echo restore rules failed set `wc c wc c 1 test wc c ! echo original size , current size wc c fi guidelines echo x extracting guidelines \( text \) sed 's x ' 'shar eof' guidelines international obfuscated c code contest guidelines , hints comments x xcopyright \( c \) landon curt noll larry bassel , 1993 xall rights reserved permission personal , education non profit use xgranted provided copyright notice included entirety xand remains unaltered uses must receive prior permission writing xfrom landon curt noll larry bassel x file x x file intended help people wish submit entries x international obfuscated c code contest \( ioccc short \) x x ioccc rules , though contain comments x guidelines viewed hints suggestions x entries violate guidelines remain within rules x allowed even , safer remain within guidelines x x read current ioccc rules , prior submitting entries x rules typically sent guidelines x x new 1993 x x entry format better \( us anyway \) program mkentry c x updated see entry format x x reject entries cannot compiled using ansi c x compiler certain old obfuscation hacks cause ansi c compilers x fits longer permitted new issues deal x non integral array types , variable number arguments , c preprocessor x directives exit \( \) function see likes dislikes x x suggestions x x encouraged examine winners previous contests see x information details get previous winners x x keep mind rules change year year , winning entries x may valid entries year unique novel one year x might next year x x entry usually examined number ways typically apply x number tests entry x x look original source x convert ansi tri graphs ascii x c pre process source ignoring ' lines x c pre process source ignoring ' ' lines x run c x examine algorithm x lint x compile x execute x x consider entry looks tests x ask entry remains obscure x up' c pre processor c x x entry need well , tests certain x cases , test important entries compete x creative source need well x others terms algorithm hand , given x two entries , inclined pick entry x something interesting run x x try avoid limiting creativity rules , leave x contest open creative rule interpretation real life x programming , interpreting requirements document customer request x important reason , often award abuse x rules' entry illustrates point ironic way x x plan abuse rules , suggest let us know x remarks section please note invitation abuse x invitation break strict comes x 3217 byte size limit also , abusing entry format tends x annoy amuse x x realize holes rules , invite entries x attempt exploit award abuse rules' x plug hole next year even , attempt use x smallest plug needed , smaller \) x x check program sure works sometimes make x effort debug entry slight problem , particularly x near final round hand , seen x best entries fall n't work x x tend look prime number printer , claims x 16 prime number bug , better x documenting noting entry sometimes prints 4th power x prime mistake would save entry sometimes , x strange bug feature even help entry ! course , correctly x working entry best x x likes dislikes x x masses defines obscure source become x tend masses defines due pre processor tests x apply simply abusing defines bar wo n't go far x program well rounded confusion x x many ansi c compilers dislike following code , x x define define x foo n't expect turn define foo x x int x j n't use implicit type declaration x int k x x suggest compile entry ansi c compiler x must use non ansi c , k r c , must avoid areas result x compile link errors ansi c compilers x x unfortunately , ansi c requires array indexes integral type x thus , following classical obfuscation hacks longer allowed x x int x char c x c use c instead x \( 3 \) string use string 3 instead x x entry uses functions variable number x arguments , careful systems implement va list wide variety x ways , number operations using va list x portable must used x x assigning non va list variable va list variable x casting non va list variable va list variable x passing va list variable function expecting non va list arg x passing non va list variable function expecting va list arg x performing arithmetic va list variables x using va list structure union x x particular , treat va list variables char 's x x avoid using h , use h instead x x use c preprocessor directives \( define , , ifdef , \) , x leading ' ' must first character line x c allow whitespace leading ' ' , many x x exit \( \) function returns void systems , entries x must assume returns int x x small programs best short , obscure concise x programs complex winners , x serve useful purpose often program people x attempt completely understand reason , look x programs compact , instructional x x one line programs short one line programs , say around 80 x bytes long getting close 160 bytes bit long opinion x x tend dislike programs x x hardware specific x os un x version specific x \( index strchr differences ok , socket streams specific x code likely \) x dump core compiler warnings x \( ok warn us header item \) x wo n't compile bsd sys v un x x abusing build file get around size limit x obfuscate excessive use ansi tri graphs x longer need x similar previous winners x identical previous losers \) x x unless cramped space , unless entering x one category , suggest format program x creative way simply forming excessively long lines x x build file used try get around size x limit one thing make use several 's help , x quite another use 200 bytes 's order x try squeeze source size limit feel x free make use build file space , better x show amount restraint x x allowed whitespace , certain cases impact x program size \( certain point \) , want get x away source simply compact blob characters x x given two versions program , one compact blob x code , formatted like typical c x program , tend favor second version course , third x version program formatted interesting x obfuscated way , would definitely win first two ! x x suggest avoid trying self x program amazed many different sizes claim x smallest nothing wrong self replicating x programs fact , number winners self replicating x might want avoid claim , lest \( others \) x know smaller one ! x x x client entries portable possible entries x adapt wide collection environments favored n't x depend particular type display example , n't depend x color given size n't require backing store x x x client entries avoid using x related libraries x software wide spread use ask x client x entries restrict low level xlib x athena widget set \( libx11 , libxaw , libxmu libxt \) x n't use tif , xv ew , ok toolkits , since everyone x avoid depending particular window manager x everyone x11r5 , people stuck back x11r4 \( x earlier \) , try target x11r5 without requiring x11r5 better x yet , try make entry run version 11 x window systems x x x client entries depend particular items x xdefaults must , sure note required lines x remark section x x like programs x x concise small need x something least quasi interesting x pass lint without complaint \( requirement , nice \) x portable x unique novel obfuscation style x make use number different types obfuscation x make us laugh throw \) x x types programs ca n't excel areas course , x program n't excel areas , well several x areas really help x x freely admit interesting , creative humorous comments x remark section helps chance winning x read many twisted entries , would enjoy good laugh two x think readers contest winners well x x creative ! x x xentry format x x order help us process many entries , must request x assistance formatting entries certain way format , x addition , allows us quickly separate information x author program \( see judging process \) x x provided program , mkentry , example x format entries aware following warning x found mkentry c x x program attempts implement ioccc rules every x attempt made make sure program produces x entry conforms contest rules cases , x program differs contest rules , x contest rules used sure check x contest rules submitting entry x x required use mkentry convenient , however , x attempts uuencode needed files , attempt check x entry size rules x x suggestions , comments , fixes complaints x mkentry c program , please send email judges \( see \) x x following sample entry x x entry 1993 n chonglab xentry 0 mon mar 1 08 45 20 1993 xhost un x v6 , 45 x 2 , 70 x remark x non obfuscated obfuscated c program x x likely win prize expect x short example ! x author xname landon curt noll xorg ioccc judging group xaddr toad hall x po box x san francisco , california x 0608 x usa xemail chongo toad com xanon n x author xname larry bassel xorg ioccc judging group xaddr toad hall x po box x san francisco , california x 0608 x usa xemail hoptoad ! sun ! lab x lab sun com xanon n x info xbegin 444 info file p 7 \) \( ac 2 ! , 86yd vx ! vql `q 3ds ! p xm \( \) e b` 4 5r b ! f w \( 5r v \( 5d 6 xm eo b ! b ! n ' \) \( ! pig f n 5d \( ' ! r 5d \( xm 7 , ai r ! c w ! '0 86yd \( yo ! f4 6x xm \( 5n f n9 ! \( \) e9 x \( l ! ae xm b ! u \( uu w0 ! p b ! \) 7 6 n \( en \( ' r xm f 9g \) 2 ! , 86yd vx ! vql h 5 aa ! \( es ! rx aa ! \( es \( yo p \( ` \( es \( yo ! \( '1h870 f \( es xm i4 \( es ! \( '1h870 7 , f ! r \) 2t f xm \( s0 w0 bp \( ' ! e g b ! \( \( '1h870 ae xm 2 ! 2 ! o9 5d \( 7 , 22 ! w \( w \( ua x9 gd vel ! r ! ! es \( \( `` x` xend x build xbegin 444 build , ' \) \( uo \( ' ! r v x` xend x program xbegin 444 prog c xm 6 b gl \( \( 214 \) 5 7u 5 , 15 \) 1d ! \( ` \( ' ! r ! , 86yd xm vx 3f l ! f w \( \( 'd 0v u f ! \( , q eqn x \( bd b e h \( ` p 3l \? x` xend x end x x typically build file assume source prog c x compile prog entry wins , rename x source binary avoid filename collision tradition , x use name entry 's title , followed optional x digit case name conflicts x x entry somehow likely award , x would use chonglab c chonglab x x entry depends , requires build , source x binary files particular name , please say x remark section case applies , would helpful x one following x x tell us change filename \( \) entry x x build file make copies files example x x cc prog c special name need special binary x x rm f special src c need special source x cp prog c special src c x cc special src c special name x x rm f special build need special build x tail 4 build special build x sh special build x x assume use entry title send us version x build program files uses name convention x uuencode files data sections x x entry needs modify source , info binary files , x please say remark section try avoid x touching original build , source binary files x arrange make copies files intend modify x allow people generate entry scratch x x remember entry may built without build file x typically incorporate build lines makefile x build file must exist , say remark section x x entry needs special info files , uuencode x info sections case multiple info files , x use multiple info sections info files needed , x skip info section x x info files intended input , detailed information x fit well remark section example , x entry implements compiler might want provide sample x programs user compile entry might want include x lengthy design document , might appropriate x file x x info files used supplement entry x example , info files may provide sample input detailed x information entry supplemental , x entry require exist x x cases , info files might renamed avoid name x conflicts info files renamed reason , x say remark section x x info files must uudecode current directory x absolutely must renamed , moved sub directory , say x remark section x x submitting multiple entries , sure entry x unique entry number 0 7 first entry x entry number 0 x x exception header , text outside entry x format may ignored , n't place text outside x entry expect judges see \( decoding tools n't x ai progs ! \) need tell something , put x remark section , send email judges x x ! apple , pyramid , sun , uunet ! hoptoad ! judges \( address x judges toad com submitting entries \) x x date given respect utc \( systems refer x gmt \) format date x returned asctime \( \) c locale example string x x thr apr 01 00 47 00 1993 x x format similar output date \( 1 \) command x string include name year many x systems , one following command produce similar string x x date u h 19 x date u sed e 's \( 19 0 9 0 9 \) 1 ' x sh c 'tz utc date sed e \( 19 0 9 0 9 \) 1 ' x sh c 'tz gmt date sed e \( 19 0 9 0 9 \) 1 ' x sh c 'tz date sed e \( 19 0 9 0 9 \) 1 ' x x allowed update fix revise entry , set x 'fix' line entry section 'y' instead 'n' x sure resubmittion uses title entry number x well , used determine entry x replaced x x process x x entries judged larry bassel landon curt noll x x entries unpacked individual directories email message x unpacked individual files , containing x x entry section x author sections x info sections x build section x program section x text , including email message headers x x prior judging , file scanned sure x contain useful information \( case entry x unpack correctly \) information x author sections read judging process x complete , entries award x x process helps keep us biased one particular x individual usually kept dark much x final awards given like surprise finding x end , x x attempt keep entries anonymous , unless win award x main winning announced , make x attempts send non winners oblivion remove non winning x files , shred related paper tradition , even x reveal number entries received \( curious , x indicate volume paper consumed presenting ioccc x winners talks \) x x usenix announcement , attempt send email x authors winning entries one reason give x authors chance comment way presented x entry given chance correct mistakes , typos x often accept suggestions comments remarks well x done prior posting winners wide world x x judging consists number elimination rounds round , x collection entries divided two roughly equal piles x pile advances next round , pile x also examine entries eliminated x previous round thus , entry gets least two readings x x reading consists number actions x x reading entry section x reading uudecoded build section x reading uudecoded program section x reading uudecoded info section \( \) , x passing source thru c pre processor x shipping include files x performing number c cleanup source x passing source thru c pre processor x shipping include files x x later rounds , actions performed x x source x compiling building source x running program x performing misc tests source binary x x reduce stack entries 25 entries , entries x judged individual basis entry set aside x , opinion , meet standard established round x number entries 25 entries , begin form x award categories entries begin compete awards x entry often compete several categories x x actual award category list vary depending types entries x receive typical category list might x x best small one line program x best small program x strangest creative source layout x useful obfuscated program x best game obfuscated x obfuscated program x deceptive c code x best x client \( see likes dislikes \) x best abuse ansi c x worst abuse rules x anything else strange deserves award x x limit list example , entries x good bad declared winners start final round x invent awards categories , necessary x x final round process , perform difficult tasks x reducing remaining entries \( typically 25 \) 8 10 x winners often confident entries make x final round definitely better ones x make selection winners final round , x less clear cut x x sometimes final round entry good enough win , beat x similar , slightly better entry reason , x sometimes worthwhile enter improved version entry x failed win previous year assumes , course , x entry worth improving first place ! x x often , select small entry \( usually one line \) , x strange creative layout entry , entry abuses contest x rules way x x end , traditionally pick one entry 'best' sometimes x entry simply far exceeds entry often , x 'best' picked well number categories x x winners x x first announcement , occurs summer usenix conference tradition , x done latter part uunet ioccc bof , prior x berkeley bsd , bof x x winning entries posted late june following groups x x comp lang c comp unix wizards alt sources x x addition , pointers postings posted following x x comp sources alt sources misc misc x comp sources misc comp windows x x x winning entries deposited uunet archives see x details x x often , winning entries published selected magazines winners x appeared books \( new hackers dictionary \) shirts x x last , least , winners receive international fame flames ! \) x x xfor information x x may contact judges sending email following address x x ! apple , pyramid , sun , uunet ! hoptoad ! judges \( address x judges toad com submitting entries \) x x questions comments contest welcome x x one may obtain copy current rules , guidelines mkentry x program obtain 3 , send email address x use subject 'send rules' x x one may also obtain items , well winners previous x contests , via anonymous ftp x x host ftp uu net \( 137 39 1 9 \) x user anonymous x pass yourname yourhost x dir pub ioccc x x often , contest rules , guidelines winners available x archive sites check comp sources unix archives , example x may also request previous winners email , using judges x email address , though ask last resort x x landon curt noll cc hoptoad ! chongo bassel uunet , ucbvax , sun ! lab shar eof chmod 0444 guidelines echo restore guidelines failed set `wc c wc c 1 test wc c ! echo original size , current size wc c fi echo end part 1 , continue part 2 exit 0 sunnyvale residents vote landon noll sunnyvale city council seat 1
chongo toad com \( landon c noll \) subject 10th international obfuscated c code contest opening \( part 2 2 \) article toad expires 7 may 93 00 00 00 gmt reply chongo toad com uucp \( landon c noll \) distribution world organization nebula consultants san francisco lines enclosed rules , guidelines related information 10th international obfuscated c code contest \( part 2 2 part shar file \) enjoy ! chongo landon curt noll oo larry bassel ! bin sh part 02 archive mkentry c echo x extracting mkentry c \( text \) sed 's x ' 'shar eof' mkentry c x \( \) mkentry c 1 24 3 1 93 02 28 49 x x copyright \( c \) landon curt noll larry bassel , 1993 x rights reserved permission personal , education non profit use x granted provided copyright notice included x entirety remains unaltered uses must receive prior x permission writing landon curt noll larry bassel x x x mkentry make international obfuscated c code contest entry x x usage x mkentry r remarks b build p prog c ioccc entry x x r remarks file remarks entry x b build file containing prog c built x p prog c obfuscated program source file x ioccc entry ioccc entry output file x x compile x cc mkentry c mkentry x x x placed public domain landon curt noll , 1992 x x software provided ``as without express implied x warranties , including , without limitation , implied warranties x fitness particular purpose x x x warning x x program attempts implement ioccc rules every attempt x made make sure program produces entry x conforms contest rules cases , program x differs contest rules , contest rules used x sure check contest rules submitting entry x x send questions comments \( entries \) contest , x x ! sun , pacbell , uunet , pyramid ! hoptoad ! judges x judges toad com x rules guidelines may \( often \) change year x year sure current rules guidelines x prior submitting entries obtain 3 , send email x address use subject 'send rules' x x contest rules change year year , one use x program year intended sure rule year x define matches current year x x x include stdio h x include ctype h x include time h x include sys types h x include sys stat h x x logic x ifndef true x define true 1 x endif true x ifndef false x define false 0 x endif false x define eof ok true x define eof ok false x x global limits x define rule year 1993 note match current year x define start date 0 00 utc first confirmation received x define max col 79 max column line hit x define max build size 256 max build size x define max program size 3217 max program source size x define max program size2 1536 max program source size counting x whitespace followed x whitespace eof x define max title len 12 max chars title x define max entry len 1 max length entry input line x define max entry 8 max number entries per person per year x define max file len 1024 max filename length info file x x send entries x define entry ! apple , pyramid , sun , uunet ! hoptoad ! obfuscate x define entry obfuscate toad com x x uuencode process assumes ascii x define uuencode \( c \) \( encode str \( int \) \( c \) 0xff \) x define uuencode len 45 max uuencode chunk size x define mode 0444 mode info file 's uuencode file x define uubuild mode 0444 mode build file 's uuencode file x define uubuild name build name build file 's uuencode file x define uuprog mode 0444 mode program 's uuencode file x define uuprog name prog c name program 's uuencode file x x encode str \( char \) val uuencoded character val encode str 256 1 ` ! ' \( \) , 0123456789 \? abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz ! ' \( \) , 0123456789 \? abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz ! ' \( \) , 0123456789 \? abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz ! ' \( \) , 0123456789 \? abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz x x global declarations program name start time startup time x x forward declarations xvoid parse args \( \) xvoid usage \( \) xfile open remark \( \) xfile open build \( \) xfile open program \( \) xfile open output \( \) xvoid output entry \( \) xvoid output remark \( \) xvoid output author \( \) xvoid output info \( \) xvoid output build \( \) xvoid output program \( \) xvoid output end \( \) xint get line \( \) xvoid output till dot \( \) xint col len \( \) xvoid check io \( \) xvoid uuencode \( \) x \( argc , argv \) x int argc arg count x char argv args x x file remark null open remarks stream x file build null open build file stream x file prog null open program stream x file output null open output stream x char rname null file remarks entry x char bname null file containing prog c built x char pname null obfuscated program source file x char oname null ioccc entry output file x struct tm tm startup time structure x x x check year x x start time time \( \( long \) 0 \) x tm \( start time \) x \( tm tm year ! rule year 1900 \) x fprintf \( stderr , x warning program applies , may differ n n , x argv 0 , rule year , 1900 tm tm year \) x x x x parse command line args x x parse args \( argc , argv , rname , bname , pname , oname \) x x x open check input output files x x open output file first , case x one input files x x output open output \( oname \) x remark open remark \( rname \) x build open build \( bname \) x prog open program \( pname \) x \( output null remark null build null prog null \) x exit \( 1 \) x x x x output section x x output entry \( output , oname \) x output remark \( output , oname , remark , rname \) x output author \( output , oname \) x output info \( output , oname \) x output build \( output , oname , build , bname \) x output program \( output , oname , prog , pname \) x output end \( output , oname \) x x x flush output x x \( fflush \( output \) eof \) x fprintf \( stderr , flush error , program , oname \) x perror \( \) x exit \( 2 \) x x x x final words x x printf \( entry found check file n , x oname \) x printf \( correct problems verify uudecode utility n \) x printf \( correctly decode build file program n n \) x printf \( program provided guide n \) x printf \( cases conflicts rules , rules shall apply n \) x printf \( responsibility ensure entry conforms n \) x printf \( current rules n n \) x printf \( email entries n \) x printf \( n , entry \) x printf \( n n , entry \) x printf \( please use following subject email entry n \) x printf \( entry n n \) x done x exit \( 0 \) x x x x parse args parse command line args x x given command line args , function sets x required name flags function return command x line syntax correct x xvoid args \( argc , argv , rname , bname , pname , oname \) x int argc arg count x char argv args x char rname file remarks entry x char bname file containing prog c built x char pname obfuscated program source file x char oname ioccc entry output file x x char optarg flag option operand x int flagname name flag x int x x x everyone , must parse args hand x x program argv 0 x \( 1 argc \) x x determine flagname x \( argv 0 ! ' ' \) x usage \( 1 \) x notreached x x flagname \( int \) argv 1 x x determine flag 's operand x \( flagname ! ' 0' argv 2 ! ' 0' \) x optarg argv 2 x else x \( 1 argc \) x usage \( 2 \) x notreached x else x optarg argv x x x x save flag 's operand correct global variable x switch \( flagname \) x case 'r' x rname optarg x break x case 'b' x bname optarg x break x case x pname optarg x break x case 'o' x oname optarg x break x default x usage \( 3 \) x notreached x x x x x verify required flags x x \( rname null bname null pname null oname null \) x usage \( 4 \) x notreached x x return x x x x usage print usage message exit x x function return x xvoid \( exitval \) x int exitval exit value x x fprintf \( stderr , x usage r remarks b build p prog c ioccc entry n n , program \) x fprintf \( stderr , r remarks remarks entry n \) x fprintf \( stderr , b build containing prog c built n \) x fprintf \( stderr , p prog c obfuscated program source file n \) x fprintf \( stderr , ioccc entry entry output file n \) x exit \( exitval \) x x x x open remark open check remark file x x remark file indented 4 spaces , extend x beyond column max col requirements , warn x x function returns null format error x xfile xopen remark \( filename \) x char filename x x file stream opened file stream x char buf bufsiz 1 input buffer x int toolong 0 number lines long x int non indent 0 number lines indented 4 spaces x x x open remark input file x x stream fopen \( filename , r \) x \( stream null \) x fprintf \( stderr , cannot open remark file , x program , filename \) x perror \( \) x return \( null \) x x x x look line x x \( fgets \( buf , bufsiz , stream \) ! null \) x x count lines start 4 spaces x \( buf 0 ! ' n' \( buf , , 4 \) ! 0 \) x non indent x x x count long lines x \( col len \( buf \) max col \) x found line long x toolong x x x x watch errors x check io \( stream , filename , eof ok \) x x note long lines needed x \( toolong 0 \) x fprintf \( stderr , x warning line \( \) extend beyond column n , x program , toolong , filename \) x fprintf \( stderr , x ok , would nice avoid n n , x program \) x x x note non indented lines , needed x \( non indent 0 \) x fprintf \( stderr , x warning line \( \) indented 4 spaces n , x program , non indent , filename \) x fprintf \( stderr , x ok , would nice avoid n n , x program \) x x x return open file x rewind \( stream \) x return \( stream \) x x x x open build open check build file x x build file must longer max build size bytes x x function returns null size error x xfile xopen build \( filename \) x char filename x x file stream opened file stream x struct stat statbuf status open file x x x open build input file x x stream fopen \( filename , r \) x \( stream null \) x fprintf \( stderr , cannot open build file , x program , filename \) x perror \( \) x return \( null \) x x x x determine size file x x \( \( \( stream \) , statbuf \) 0 \) x fprintf \( stderr , cannot stat build file , x program , filename \) x perror \( \) x return \( null \) x x \( statbuf st size max build size \) x fprintf \( stderr , x fatal build file , bytes long n , x program , filename , statbuf st size \) x fprintf \( stderr , x may longer bytes n , x program , max build size \) x return \( null \) x x x return open file x return \( stream \) x x x x open program open check program source file x x program source file must 3217 bytes number x non whitespace chars followed whitespace must x 1536 bytes x x function returns null size error x xfile xopen program \( filename \) x char filename x x file stream opened file stream x struct stat statbuf status open file x int count special count size x int c character read x x x open program source input file x x stream fopen \( filename , r \) x \( stream null \) x fprintf \( stderr , cannot open program source file , x program , filename \) x perror \( \) x exit \( 7 \) x x x x determine size file x x \( \( \( stream \) , statbuf \) 0 \) x fprintf \( stderr , cannot stat program source file , x program , filename \) x perror \( \) x return \( null \) x x \( statbuf st size max program size \) x fprintf \( stderr , x fatal program source file , bytes long n , x program , filename , statbuf st size \) x fprintf \( stderr , x may longer bytes n , x program , max program size \) x return \( null \) x x x x count non whitespace , non followed whitespace chars x x count 0 x c 0 x \( \( c fgetc \( stream \) \) ! eof \) x look non whitespace x \( ! isascii \( c \) ! \( c \) \) x switch \( c \) x case ' ' count followed eof whitespace x case ' ' x case ' ' x peek next char x c fgetc \( stream \) x \( c ! eof isascii \( c \) ! \( c \) \) x followed whitespace eof , count x \( c , stream \) x count x x break x default x count x break x x x x x watch errors x check io \( stream , filename , eof ok \) x x look special size x \( count max program size2 \) x fprintf \( stderr , x fatal number bytes non whitespace , n , x program \) x fprintf \( stderr , x ' ' , ' ' , ' ' followed whitespace n , x program \) x fprintf \( stderr , x eof must bytes n , x program , max program size2 \) x fprintf \( stderr , x , bytes found n , x program , filename , count \) x return \( null \) x x x return open file x rewind \( stream \) x return \( stream \) x x x x open output open check entry output file x x function returns null open error x xfile xopen output \( filename \) x char filename x x file stream opened file stream x x x open ioccc entry output file x x stream fopen \( filename , w \) x \( stream null \) x fprintf \( stderr , cannot open ioccc entry file output , x program , filename \) x perror \( \) x exit \( 8 \) x x x return open file x return \( stream \) x x x x output entry output entry section x x read needed information form stdin , write entry section x xvoid xoutput entry \( output , oname \) x file output entry 's output file stream x char oname name output file x x char title max title len 1 1 entry 's title x char buf max col 1 1 buffer x int entry 0 entry number x int ret fields processed x int ok line 0 0 line ok x char skip input skip x file date pipe pipe date command x time epoch sec seconds since epoch x char p x x x write start section x x fprintf \( output , entry n \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x x x write rule year x x fprintf \( output , rule n , rule year \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x x determine fix x printf \( fix , update resubmittion \) x printf \( previous entry \( enter n \) \? \) x \( get line \( buf , 1 1 , 0 \) 0 ! \( buf 0 'y' buf 0 'n' \) \) x printf \( nplease answer n \) x x \( buf 0 'y' \) x fprintf \( output , fix ty n \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x printf \( sure title entry number give n \) x printf \( entry replacing n \) x else x fprintf \( output , fix tn n \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x x x x write title x x printf \( title must match expression za z0 9 character n \) x printf \( followed 0 za z0 9 characters n n , x max title len 1 \) x printf \( suggested , required , title n \) x printf \( incorporate username n \) x printf \( case multiple authors , consider using parts n \) x printf \( authors n n \) x printf \( enter title \) x x prompt read line x \( \( ok line get line \( title , max title len 1 , max col 9 \) \) 0 \) x printf \( long , please enter \) x continue x x x verify pattern , everyone , hand x \( ! isascii \( \( int \) title 0 \) x ! \( \( \( int \) title 0 \) title 0 ' ' title 0 ' ' \) \) x printf \( first character title n n \) x printf \( enter title \) x ok line 0 x else x \( p \( title 1 \) p ! ' 0' p ! ' n' p \) x \( ! isascii \( \( int \) p \) x ! \( \( \( int \) p \) x p ' ' p ' ' p ' ' p ' ' \) \) x printf \( character title n n \) x printf \( enter title \) x ok line 0 x x x x \( ok line 0 \) x fprintf \( output , title , title \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x x x write entry number x x printf \( person may submit entries per year n n , x max entry \) x printf \( enter entry number 0 inclusive , max entry 1 \) x x get valid input line x fflush \( stdout \) x ret \( stdin , n , entry \) x check io \( stdin , stdin , eof ok \) x skip input newline found x x skip fgetc \( stdin \) x check io \( stdin , stdin , eof ok \) x \( skip ! ' n' \) x bad text input , invalidate entry number x entry 1 x x \( skip ! ' n' \) x x check number , range x \( ret ! 1 entry 0 entry max entry 1 \) x printf \( x entry number must 0 inclusive n n , x max entry 1 \) x printf \( enter entry number \) x x \( ret ! 1 entry 0 entry max entry 1 \) x fprintf \( output , entry n , entry \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x x x write submission date x x returns newline x epoch sec time \( null \) x fprintf \( output , date , asctime \( \( epoch sec \) \) \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x x x write os machine host information x x printf \( x nenter machine \( \) os \( \) entry tested n \) x output till dot \( output , oname , host \) x x x x output remark output remark section x x read needed information form stdin , write entry section x xvoid xoutput remark \( output , oname , remark , rname \) x file output entry 's output file stream x char oname name output file x file remark stream file containing remark text x char rname name remark file x x char buf bufsiz 1 input output buffer x x x write start section x x fprintf \( output , remark n \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x x x copy remark file section x x \( fgets \( buf , bufsiz , remark \) ! null \) x \( buf , output \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x x check io \( remark , rname , eof ok \) x x sure remark section ends newline x \( buf strlen \( buf \) 1 ! ' n' \) x fputc \( ' n' , output \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x x x x x output author output author section x x read needed information stdin , write author section x multiple authors exist , multiple author sections written x xvoid xoutput author \( output , oname \) x file output entry 's output file stream x char oname name output file x x char buf max col 1 1 buffer x int auths true authors note x int auth cnt 0 number authors processed x x x prompt user author section x x printf \( nenter information author entry n \) x printf \( contest deadline , judges n , start date \) x printf \( attempt email back confirmation first author n \) x x x place author information author individual section x x x x write start section x fprintf \( output , author n \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x x write author x printf \( name , auth cnt \) x \( get line \( buf , max col 1 , max col 9 \) 0 \) x printf \( long , please enter \) x x fprintf \( output , name , buf \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x x write organization x printf \( nenter school company organization author n , x auth cnt \) x printf \( org , auth cnt \) x \( get line \( buf , max col 1 , max col 9 \) 0 \) x printf \( long , please enter \) x x fprintf \( output , org , buf \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x x write address x printf \( x nenter postal address author sure include n , x auth cnt \) x printf \( country include name n \) x output till dot \( output , oname , addr \) x x write email address x printf \( x nenter email address author use address n , x auth cnt \) x printf \( x registered domain well known site give several n \) x printf \( forms , list one per line n \) x output till dot \( output , oname , email \) x x write anonymous status x printf \( author remain anonymous \( enter n \) \? , x auth cnt \) x \( get line \( buf , 1 1 , 0 \) 0 ! \( buf 0 'y' buf 0 'n' \) \) x printf \( nplease answer n \) x x fprintf \( output , anon , buf \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x x determine another author x printf \( nis another author \( enter n \) \? \) x \( get line \( buf , 1 1 , 0 \) 0 ! \( buf 0 'y' buf 0 'n' \) \) x printf \( nplease answer n \) x x \( buf 0 'y' \) x auths true x else x auths false x x \( auths true \) x return x x x x output info output info section \( \) x x read needed information stdin , write info section x multiple info files exist , multiple info sections written x xvoid xoutput info \( output , oname \) x file output entry 's output file stream x char oname name output file x x char infoname max file len 1 filename buffer x char yorn 1 1 n answer x char uuname name uuencode x file infile info file stream x x x prompt user info information x x printf \( files used supplement entry n \) x printf \( example , info files may provide sample input detailed n \) x printf \( information entry supplemental , n \) x printf \( entry require exist n n \) x x x another info file save , uuencode x x printf \( info file include \( enter n \) \? \) x \( get line \( yorn , 1 1 , 0 \) 0 ! \( yorn 0 'y' yorn 0 'n' \) \) x printf \( nplease answer n \) x x \( yorn 0 'y' \) x x read filename x printf \( nenter info filename \) x \( get line \( infoname , max file len 1 , 0 \) 0 \) x printf \( filename long , please enter \) x x x compute info filename x remove trailing newline x uuname infoname strlen \( infoname \) 1 x uuname ' 0' x avoid rindex compat issues , hand x \( uuname uuname infoname uuname \) x \( uuname ' ' \) x uuname x break x x x x attempt open info file x infile fopen \( infoname , r \) x \( infile null \) x fprintf \( stderr , n cannot open info file , x program , infoname \) x perror \( \) x continue x x x x write start section x x fprintf \( output , info n \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x x uuencode info file x uuencode \( output , oname , infile , infoname , mode , uuname \) x x printf \( another info file include \( enter n \) \? \) x \( get line \( yorn , 1 1 , 0 \) 0 ! \( yorn 0 'y' yorn 0 'n' \) \) x printf \( nplease answer n \) x x x return x x x x output build output build section x x read needed information stdin , write build section x xvoid xoutput build \( output , oname , build , bname \) x file output entry 's output file stream x char oname name output file x file build open build file stream x char bname name build file x x x write start section x x fprintf \( output , build n \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x x x uuencode program file x x uuencode \( output , oname , build , bname , uubuild mode , uubuild name \) x return x x x x output program output program section x x read needed information form stdin , write program section x xvoid xoutput program \( output , oname , prog , pname \) x file output entry 's output file stream x char oname name output file x file prog open program stream x char pname name program file x x x write start section x x fprintf \( output , program n \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x x x uuencode program file x x uuencode \( output , oname , prog , pname , uuprog mode , uuprog name \) x return x x x x output end output end section x x read needed information form stdin , write 'end x xvoid xoutput end \( output , oname \) x file output entry 's output file stream x char oname name output file x x x write final section terminator x x fprintf \( output , end n \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x return x x x x get line get answer stdin x x function flush stdout , case prompt pending , x read answer x x function returns 0 line long , length x line \( including newline \) line ok function x return error eof x xint line \( buf , siz , maxcol \) x char buf input buffer x int siz length input , including newline x int maxcol max col allowed , 0 disable check x x int length length input line x x flush terminal output x fflush \( stdout \) x x read line x \( fgets \( buf , siz 1 , stdin \) null \) x report problem x check io \( stdin , stdin , eof ok \) x x x look newline x length strlen \( buf \) x \( buf length 1 ! ' n' \) x int eatchar char eaten x x newline found , line must long , eat rest line x x eatchar fgetc \( stdin \) x \( eatchar ! eof eatchar ! ' n' \) x check io \( stdin , stdin , eof ok \) x x report situation x return 0 x x x watch long lines , needed x \( maxcol 0 \( length maxcol col len \( buf \) maxcol \) \) x report situation x return 0 x x x return length x return length x x x x output till dot output set lines ' ' read x x routine read set lines \( including \) x single line ' ' read format output x x leader line x line x line x x x routine return error eof x xvoid xoutput till dot \( output , oname , leader \) x file output entry 's output file stream x char oname name output file x char leader lead text first line x x char buf bufsiz 1 input buffer x int count lines read x int done false true finished reading input x x instruct user input x printf \( end input , enter line single period n \) x x read lines ' ' eof x count 0 x \( ! done \) x issue prompt x printf \( , \( count 0 \) \? leader \) x fflush \( stdout \) x x get line x \( get line \( buf , bufsiz , max col 9 \) 0 \) x printf \( long , please enter n \) x continue x x x note ' ' read x \( \( buf , n \) 0 \) x done true x x x write line read something x \( ! done \) x fprintf \( output , , \( count 0 \) \? leader , buf \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x x x x lines read , least output something x \( count 0 \) x fprintf \( output , n , leader \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x x return x x x x col len determine highest string would reach x x given string , routine returns string would reach x string printed column 1 tab stops assumed x start 9 , 17 , 25 , 33 , x xint len \( string \) x char string string examine x x int col current column x char p current char x x scan string x \( col 0 , p string p ! ' 0' p ! ' n' p \) x note column shift x col \( p ' t' \) \? 1 \( \( col 8 \) 8 8 \) col 1 x x \( p ' n' \) x col x x x return highest column x return col x x x x check io check eof error stream x x return eof error x xvoid io \( stream , name , eof ok \) x file stream stream check x char name name stream x int eof ok eof ok eof ok x x test error x \( \( stream \) \) x fprintf \( stderr , error , program , name \) x perror \( \) x exit \( 1 \) x x test eof x else \( eof ok eof ok \( stream \) \) x fprintf \( stderr , eof n , program , name \) x exit \( 1 \) x x return x x x x uuencode uuencode file x x perform process identical process performed x uuencode \( 1 \) utility x x routine implements algorithm described uuencode \( 5 \) x 4 reno man page x xvoid \( output , oname , infile , iname , umode , uname \) x file output output file stream x char oname output filename x file infile input file stream x char iname input filename x int umode mode put uuencode file x char uname name put uuencode file x x char buf uuencode len 1 uuencode buffer x int read len actual number chars read x int val 6 bit chunk buf x char filler ' 0' filler uuencode pad text x char p x x x output initial uuencode header x x fprintf \( output , begin n , umode , uname \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x x x clear input buffer x x \( p buf p buf sizeof \( buf \) sizeof \( buf 0 \) p \) x p ' 0' x x x x process uuencode len chars time , forming x single output line time x x \( \( read len \( buf , sizeof \( buf 0 \) , uuencode len , infile \) \) 0 \) x x x first character length character x x fputc \( uuencode \( read len \) , output \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x x x convert 24 bits time thus convert x 3 sets 8 bits 4 sets uuencoded 6 bits x x \( p buf read len 0 read len 3 , p 3 \) x x bits 0 5 x val \( p 0 2 \) x fputc \( uuencode \( val \) , output \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x x bits 6 11 x val \( \( p 0 4 \) \) \( \( p 1 4 \) \) x fputc \( uuencode \( val \) , output \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x x bits 12 17 x val \( \( p 1 2 \) \) \( \( p 2 6 \) \) x fputc \( uuencode \( val \) , output \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x x bits 18 23 x val p 2 x fputc \( uuencode \( val \) , output \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x x x end uuencode len line x fputc \( ' n' , output \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x x x clear input buffer \( n't depend \( \) memset \( \) \) x x \( p buf p buf sizeof \( buf \) sizeof \( buf 0 \) p \) x p ' 0' x x x x check last read input file x check io \( infile , iname , eof ok \) x x write end uuencode file x fprintf \( output , c n , uuencode \( filler \) \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x shar eof chmod 0444 mkentry c echo restore mkentry c failed set `wc c mkentry c` wc c 1 test wc c ! echo original size , current size wc c fi obfuscate info echo x extracting obfuscate info \( text \) sed 's x ' 'shar eof' obfuscate info obfuscated contest information x xcopyright \( c \) landon curt noll larry bassel , 1993 xall rights reserved permission personal , education non profit use xgranted provided copyright notice included entirety xand remains unaltered uses must receive prior permission writing xfrom landon curt noll larry bassel x xthe international obfuscated c code contest \( ioccc \) , operation , willing mention programming contents , space x contest included file x x wish ioccc judges include contest file , x send request x x judges toad com x x request contest descriptions limited 50 lines x exceed 2500 bytes typically request contest x include current description ioccc x x order included file given year , must x receive current description earlier jan 1 00 00 00 utc x later feb 15 00 00 00 utc agreement publish x contest must also obtained prior feb 15 annual contests x fail submit new entry dropped file x disclaimer \( pardon \) x x contents noted , ioccc , affiliated x ioccc , endorsed ioccc reserve x right refuse print information given contest x x information provided particular contest x organizer \( \) printed permission please contact x contest organizer \( \) directly regarding contents x official notice given , present enjoyment , following contents x x x x 10th international obfuscated c contest x x original obfuscated contest x x obfuscate tr v , , 1 render obscure x b darken 2 confuse emotions obfuscated x judgment , darken ob \( intensive \) x lat , darken , dark obfuscation n x adj x x goals contest x x write obscure obfuscated c program rules x show importance programming style , ironic way x stress c compilers unusual code x illustrate c language x provide safe forum poor c code \) x x ioccc grandfather usenet programming contests since x 1984 , contest demonstrated program works x correctly sufficient ioccc also done much add x arcane word back english language x \( see new hacker 's dictionary eric raymond \) x x strongly encouraged read new contest rules x sending entries rules , sometimes contest email x address , change time valid entry one year may x rejected later year due changes rules typical x start date contests early march contest rules normally x finalized posted beginning contest typical x closing date contests early may x x contest rules posted comp unix wizards , comp lang c , x misc misc , alt sources comp sources access x groups , missed early march posting , may x request copy judges , via email , x x judges toad com ! sun , uunet , utzoo , pyramid ! hoptoad ! judges x x previous contest winners available via anonymous ftp x ftp uu net directory pub ioccc x x x x international obfuscated perl contest x landon noll larry wall x x content planned someday landon larry x busy , actually get around posting first set rules ! x x landon says yes , know said would contest 1993 , x existing projects got way hopefully x something developed nov 1993 x x x x 2nd international obfuscated postscript contest x jonathan \( jgm cs brown edu \) x alena \( alena nikhef nl \) x x contest programming skills knowledge , exclusively x postscript programming language purpose x x spread knowledge postscript details x applaud best tricks x prove humans beat machine generators x game writing obscure mysterious postscript x programs ever x x winners receive fame attention goes x program entry posted winner programmers world wide x x 1993 contest rules results available ftp x cs brown edu pub postscript obfuscated , individually x obfuscated directory judges post 1994 rules x november comp lang postscript usenet , places x send questions jgm cs brown edu x x categories include best obfuscated postscript , best artwork , x compact , best interactive program , useful , x anything unusual creative deserves award x x judges choose winners category x x alena system administrator nikhef \( institute high x energy nuclear physics \) netherlands author x postscript chaos programs , draw julia sets , sets x kinds fractal functions x x jonathan graduate student mit brown university x u faq maintainer usenet newsgroup x comp lang postscript author postscript zone x x shar eof chmod 0444 obfuscate info echo restore obfuscate info failed set `wc c obfuscate wc c 1 test wc c ! echo original size , current size wc c fi exit 0 sunnyvale residents vote landon noll sunnyvale city council seat 1
steve ecf toronto edu \( steve kotsopoulos \) subject x intel based unix frequently asked questions faq summary x options intel based unix \( sysv 386 , 386bsd , linux , mach \) article ecf expires sat , 1 may 1993 04 00 00 gmt reply steve ecf toronto edu organization university toronto , engineering computing facility lines 530 archive name intel unix x faq last modified 30 mar 1993 note major organization \( replacement \) frequently asked questions x386 faq list article includes answers \) options x software intel based unix system \? 1 free options 2 commercial options ii \) xfree86 get \? 3 xfree86 \? 4 oss supported \? 5 video hardware supported \? 6 accelerated boards \? 7 n't xfree86 support 16 color vga modes \? 8 hardware software requirements \? 9 get source xfree86 \? 10 get binaries xfree86 \? iv \) general things know running xfree86 \? 11 installation directories 12 configuration files 13 determining vga dot clocks monitor modes 14 rebuilding server link kit v \) os specific things know running xfree86 \? 15 svr4 16 svr3 17 386bsd 18 linux 19 mach vi \) things know building xfree86 source \? vii \) anything special building clients xfree86 \? 20 bsd compatibility library 21 ansiccoptions article include answers general x questions , since already covered x faq regularly posted david b lewis faq craft uunet uu net anything add change faq let know \( especially problem someone else able help \) send changes steve ecf toronto edu , please put somewhere subject line mail filter put correct mail folder please ask questions answered faq time respond individually instead , post question net , send question answer together get frequently asked questions x intel based unix \( answers \) \) options x software intel based unix system \? 1 free options best option xfree86 , enhanced version x386 1 2 version x386 slower performance , difficult compile information obtain xfree86 listed x386 port x11 server system v 386 done thomas roell \( roell sgcs com \) supports wide variety svga boards 2 major free versions x386 1 1 based x11r4 , x386 1 2 included mit 's x11r5 distribution \( ie n't need patch mit source \) x386 1 3 current commercial offering sgcs \( see \) 2 commercial options 1 \) metro link 2213 w road beach , fl \( 305 \) 970 7353 fax \( 305 \) 970 email sales metrolink com summary os qnx , svr3 , svr4 , sco , , , desqview x , , isc , solaris , pyramid , sunos hw ega , vga , svga , tiga , targa , 8514 , mach , s3 , wd , , matrox , graphics , motif , openlook xview , imaging extension , xv video extension , audio drivers , multi media 2 \) sgcs \( graphics consulting services \) 894 lane cupertino , ca 95014 \( 800 \) 645 , \( 408 \) 255 fax \( 408 \) 255 email info sgcs com ! mips ! zok ! info summary os svr3 2 , svr4 hw 8514 \( ati ultra \) , s3 \( diamond stealth \) , svga motif , dual headed server 3 \) consensys corporation 1301 pat rd universal city , tx phone 1 800 388 1896 fax 1 416 940 email info consensys com summary os consensys v4 2 , version unix system v release 4 2 hw x11r4 server support vga , svga moolit , motif , x11r5 clients 4 \) santa cruz operation , inc p box 1900 santa cruz , california \( 408 \) 425 , \( 800 \) sco unix , fax \( 408 \) 458 email info sco com summary os odt 1 1 , odt 2 0 , sco unix 3 hw x11r4 server support svga , 8514 , s3 , , , , assorted local bus \( see sco hardware guide actual card vendors \) motif 5 \) answer software consulting p box columbus , ohio 614 263 email sales com summary os coherent 4 0 greater hw works vesa compliant video note commercial vendors \( including os vendors describing bundled software \) welcome submit summary information summary information ii \) xfree86 get \? 3 xfree86 \? xfree86 enhanced version x386 1 2 , distributed x11r5 release consists many bug fixes , speed improvements , enhancements highlights enhancements 1 \) speedup package glenn lai integral part xfree86 , selectable run time via xconfig file speedups require et4000 based svga , others require virtual screen width 1024 speedups suitable configuration selected default high quality et4000 board \( vram \) , yield 40 improvement xstones benchmark x386 1 2 2 \) packages jim tsillas included default operating mode speedup selected mode equivalent performance x386 1 1b \( x11r4 \) , approximately 20 faster x386 1 2 3 \) support , compile time selectable server , clients , support svr3 2 svr4 svr4 0 4 compatibility , local connections sco xsight odt clients supported 4 \) drivers ati trident tvga8900c tvga9000 svga chipsets refer files readme ati readme trident details ati trident drivers 5 \) support compressed bitmap fonts added \( thomas 's code contrib directory export lcs mit edu \) 6 \) type1 font code mit contrib tape included , compile time selectable contributed type1 fonts contrib directory export lcs mit edu 7 \) new configuration method allows server 's drivers font renderers source binary distributions 8 \) integrated support 386bsd , mach , linux 9 \) monochrome version server run generic vga cards included following key features added release xfree86 1 2 \( xfree86 1 1 \) 1 \) monochrome server enhanced bank switching available svga memory allow virtual screens \( see x386 \( 1 \) manual page information \) 2 \) support hercules mono card added monochrome server , ability support two headed server one vga , one hercules far tested svr4 \( also reported work linux \) 3 \) svr3 shared libraries , tested isc svr3 2 2 3 0 1 4 \) support svr4 2 \( special considerations consider , due new usl bugs see readme svr4 file information \) 5 \) support ps 2 mice , logitech \( versions devices previously compatible \) 6 \) new tutorial develop correct video card monitor timing data , written eric raymond \( derived previous documentation lot experimentation \) 7 \) greatly improved support international keyboards , including implementation compose key functionality found many vendor servers \( see \( 1 \) manual page information \) 8 \) accuracy server detects svga pixel clocks improved , timings stored accuracies 0 1 mhz users may want consider removing existing clocks line xconfig file probing using new server 9 \) many enhancements error handling parsing xconfig configuration file error messages much informative intuitive , validation done many new options enabled xconfig file \( see x386 \( 1 \) manual page information format file \) plus number small things refer file source distribution full details also included tutorial monitor timing eric raymond , current x386 mode database sample xdm configuration david wexelblat 4 oss supported \? xfree86 supports svr4 2 consensys v4 2 svr4 0 , dell , esix , isc , , mst , consensys , uhc svr3 isc 2 2 3 0 , 2 2 linux , mach 386 , 386bsd 0 1 bsd 386 supported , work active bsd 386 person greg de note esix 3 2d sco supported yet , anyone feel free submit patches interested tackling , send mail xfree86 physics su oz au 5 video hardware supported \? time , xfree86 1 2 supports following svga chipsets tseng et4000 tseng et3000 paradise pvga1 western digital wd90c00 , , \( pvga1 , use driver \) genoa gvga trident tvga8900c , tvga9000 ati 18800 , 28800 supported 256 color monochrome modes , exception ati chipsets , supported 256 color mode monochrome server also supports generic vga cards , using 64k video memory single bank , hercules card et3000 , 64k video memory supported monochrome server , gvga tested 64k appears svga card manufacturers going non traditional mechanisms selecting pixel clock frequencies avoid modify server accommodate schemes xfree86 1 2 adds support using external program select pixel clock allows programs written new mechanisms discovered refer readme file information programs work , need write one develop program , xfree86 team would interested including future xfree86 releases purchasing new hardware purpose using xfree86 , suggested purchase et4000 based board orchid prodesigner iis avoid recent diamond boards xfree86 work , diamond wo n't provide programming details fact , xfree86 project actively supporting new diamond products , long policies remain effect contributions code accepted \( potential liabilities \) would like see change , tell diamond people asked xfree86 would work local bus eisa video cards theoretically , means communication cpu video card irrelevant xfree86 compatibility could isa , eisa , local bus matter chipset video card unfortunately , developers n't lot access eisa vlb machines , largely untested theory however , yet see reports things working one buses several reports xfree86 working fine 6 accelerated boards \? time , support xfree86 accelerated boards like s3 , ati ultra \( 8514 \) , tiga , etc support available commercial products sgcs metrolink \( svr3 svr4 \) s3 server available 386bsd linux contact hasty netcom com 386bsd jon robots ox ac uk linux beta 8514 server available linux contact martin cs unc edu jon robots ox ac uk note servers part xfree86 7 n't xfree86 support 16 color vga modes \? reason supported way vga implements 16 color modes 256 color modes , byte frame buffer memory contains 1 pixel 16 color modes implemented bit planes byte frame buffer memory contains 1 bit 8 pixels , four planes mit frame buffer code designed deal vga handled 16 color modes packing 2 4 bit pixels byte , mit code could modified support \( already may i'm sure \) vga way things , complete new frame buffer implementation required beta testers looking , nothing yet available project 8 hardware software requirements \? obviously , supported svga board os required run x efficiently , 12 16mb memory considered minimum various binary releases take 10 40mb disk space , depending os \( e g whether supports shared libraries \) build sources , least 80mb free disk space required , although 120mb considered comfortable lower bound 9 get source xfree86 \? source patches current version \( 1 2 , based x11r5 mit \) , available via anonymous ftp export lcs mit edu \( contrib xfree86 \) ftp physics su oz au \( xfree86 \) ftp win tue nl \( pub xfree86 \) \( rest faq , 3 location called ftp \) refer readme file specified directory information files need get build distribution 10 get binaries xfree86 \? binaries available via anonymous ftp ftp physics su oz au svr4 binaries xfree86 svr4 ftp win tue nl svr4 binaries pub xfree86 svr4 ucsb edu svr4 binaries pub svr4 xfree86 bradley edu svr4 binaries pub xfree86 svr4 utexas edu svr3 \( isc \) binaries pub isc ftp prz tu berlin de svr3 \( isc \) binaries pub pc isc xfree86 tsx 11 mit edu linux binaries pub linux packages x11 agate berkeley edu 386bsd binaries pub 386bsd 0 1 ports xfree86 ftp cs uwm edu mach binaries i386 ensure getting xfree86 1 2 sites may archive older releases well binary distribution contain readme file describes files need take archive , compile time option selections made building distribution iv \) general things know running xfree86 \? 11 installation directories top level installation directory specified projectroot \( usr x386 , default \) variable config site def binaries , include files , libraries installed projectroot bin , include , lib changed rebuilding sources , modified via symbolic links oss support directory nonstandard , chosen way allow xfree86 installed alongside commercial vendor supplied x implementation 12 configuration files xfree86 server reads configuration file \( xconfig \) startup search path , contents syntax file documented server , consulted asking questions 13 determining vga dot clocks monitor modes david e wexelblat \( dwex mtgzfs3 att com \) maintains database known clock settings vga cards monitor settings database installed usr x386 lib x11 etc txt , source tree mit server ddx x386 etc database also available \( latest copy \) , kept export lcs mit edu contrib x386 z , updated occasionally obtain copy database might settings need create new settings , please send david inclusion database n't help , doc \( eric raymond \) file xfree86 contains tutorials come timings may helpful start settings almost work , use description get right , send information david wexelblat inclusion database note old program supported , completely unnecessary need determine dot clock values new board , remove line xconfig file \( present \) , start server server probe clocks print use values put line xconfig file , necessary , speed starting server future 14 rebuilding server link kit installed server binary link kit , possible reconfigure drivers font renderers server fully explained readme file available link kit v \) os specific things know running xfree86 \? first , server must installed root \( mode 4755 \) 15 svr4 wo n't xterm run properly \? kernel built consem module , define consem environment otherwise xterm wo n't run csh users use consem no' esix console driver patch known cause problems xfree86 recommended patch installed alternatively keymap fixed xmodmap 16 svr3 make sure look ftp readme isc , 's running 17 386bsd make sure look ftp readme 386bsd also , separate 386bsd faq maintained richard rich rice edu latest version available file xfree86 1 2 386bsd faq following ftp sites agate berkeley edu pub 386bsd 0 1 ports xfree86 1 2 wuarchive wustl edu 386bsd 0 1 ports xfree86 1 2 univ fr pub 386bsd 0 1 ports xfree86 1 2 18 linux must running linux 0 greater , 4 1 gcc jump libraries installed make sure binaries x386 , , xload xterm setuid root kernel n't tcp support compiled , 'll run server x pn default startup configuration assumes tcp available , change two files usr x386 bin startx usr x386 lib x11 xdm xservers , removing pn argument x386 make sure dev console either link dev major number 4 , minor number 0 also note dev console owned user running x , xterm permit console output redirection xdm properly change owner , startx wo n't running xdm rc local , need provide tty , example xdm dev console detailed information , please read file readme present distribution tsx 11 mit edu 19 mach make sure look ftp readme mach vi \) things know building xfree86 source \? section removed faq , since fully explained ftp readme os specific please look files information building xfree86 vii \) anything special building clients xfree86 \? 20 bsd compatibility library lot clients make use bsd functions like bcopy \( \) , etc default configuration files set link libxbsd contains emulation bcopy \( \) , \( \) , \( \) , \( \) , random \( \) , seed \( \) better way providing 'b' functions include x11 h source files call h provides macro definitions terms sysv functions linking vendor supplied library calls functions , link libxbsd 21 ansiccoptions something added allow developer get rid ansi ness defined default ccoptions without rewrite entire ccoptions line example , stock mit , 'd see something like ccoptions ansi o2 fwritable strings get rid ansi ness , developer would put ccoptions o2 fwritable strings imakefile change , would see default ansiccoptions ansi ccoptions o2 fwritable strings developer would put imakefile ansiccoptions get rid ansi ness \( many x clients die horrible death ansi \) effect even dramatic practice , ccoptions actually quite complex issue one must add \( ansiccoptions \) ' passcdebugflags definition xfree86 contact information ongoing development planning support coordinated xfree86 core team time core team consists original gang four david dawes dawes physics su oz au glenn lai glenn cs utexas edu jim tsillas jtsilla damon ccs northeastern edu david wexelblat dwex mtgzfs3 att com supporting non sysv operating systems robert baron robert baron ernst mach cs cmu edu mach rich rich rice edu 386bsd kodak com linux e mail sent xfree86 physics su oz au reach core team thanks people already sent corrections additions , especially david wexelblat \( one major contributors updates \) steve kotsopoulos p eng mail steve ecf toronto edu systems analyst bitnet steve ecf utoronto bitnet engineering computing facility uucp uunet ! utai ! ecf ! steve university toronto phone \( 416 \) 978
ware cis ohio state edu \( peter ware \) subject comp windows x intrinsics frequently asked questions \( faq \) supersedes faq xt oboe cis ohio state edu organization ohio state university dept computer info science lines expires 14 may 1993 17 41 53 gmt reply ware cis ohio state edu nntp posting host oboe cis ohio state edu summary answers x11 window system widgets xt intrinsics library archive name xt faq version id faq xt , v 1 28 93 04 02 12 41 12 ware exp x toolkit intrinsics f q monthly posting article contains answers frequently asked questions \( faq \) comp windows x x toolkit intrinsics submit questions \( preferably answer \) send email ware cis ohio state edu many faqs , including one , available archive site rtfm mit edu directory pub usenet news answers name faq archived appears archive name line top article faq archived xt faq code fragments public domain contents 0 xt glossary 1 software versions 2 related faq 's 3 application core dump use signals alarms \? 4 use different visual default \? 5 visual application use \? 6 shell widgets visual \? 7 visual , depth colormap shells inherit \? 8 've done still get badmatch error \? 9 n't widget get destroyed call xtdestroywidget \( \) \? 10 exit still execute \? 11 resize shell widget \? 12 ca n't xtappaddinput \( \) handle files \? 13 good books magazines xt \? 14 widgets available \? 15 alternatives intrinsics \? 16 pass float value xtsetvalues \? 17 write resource converter \? 18 open multiple displays \? 19 changed r3 r4 r5 \? 20 resources loaded \? 21 order callbacks executed \? 22 know widget visible \? 23 widget xt , e \( \) \? 24 use xtmalloc , xtfree , etc \? 25 debug xt application \? 26 n't xtaddinput \( \) , xtaddtimeout \( \) xtaddworkproc \( \) work \? 27 implement drag drop \? 0 xt glossary xt intrinsics implement object oriented interface c code allow useful graphical components created included classes provide base functionality object , , core , composite , constraint , shell , , , etc terms xt intrinsics used , however , used precisely mean specific library x window system particular , include athena , motif , olit widget set without widgets intrinsics especially useful widget refers user interface abstraction created via xt precise use , object subclass core class used loosely refer anything subclass object class although accurately called widgets gadgets xlib c interface x11 protocol one layer xt intrinsics typically widget uses relatively xlib functions xt provides services although understanding xlib helps problems 1 software versions following latest versions xt based software software version released next expected x11r4 patch 18 \( none \) x11r5 patch 21 12 18 92 \? \? athena widgets \( see x11r5 \) motif 1 2 1 9 92 \? \? olit \? \? \? \? \? \? xtra 2 5 6 15 92 \? \? xw x11r4 \( none \) xcu x11r5 \( none \) fwf 3 4 1 11 92 4 93 2 related faq 's david b lewis \( uunet ! craft ! faq \) maintains faq x posted monthly comp windows x located export contrib faq liam r e quin \( lee sq sq com \) posts faq list open look comp windows x jan \( jan canberra edu au \) posts faq list motif comp windows x motif peter ware \( ware cis ohio state edu \) posts faq list comp windows x intrinsics export contrib faq xt 3 application core dump use signals alarms \? brief , xlib , xt widget sets mutual exclusion critical sections interrupt handler likely leave one libraries inconsistent state appropriate flags yet set , dangling pointers , middle list traversal , etc note ansi c standard points behavior signal handler undefined signal handler calls function signal \( \) , problem specific xlib xt posix specification mentions functions may called safely may assumed functions called xlib xt functions safe way deal signals set flag interrupt handler flag later needs checked either work procedure timeout callback incorrect add either interrupt handler another note , dangerous add work procedure never finishes effectively work procedures previously added never called another option open pipe , tell event loop read end using xtappaddinput \( \) signal handler write byte write end pipe signal however , could process pipe fills n't intrinsics deal problem \? primarily supposed portable layer hardware operating system good enough reason n't think note article x journal 1 4 example o'reilly volume 6 error 4 use different visual default \? requires complicated answer window three things visual specific visual , colormap border pixmap widgets colormap resource shell widgets visual resources \( another questions deals shells visual \) default value resources copyfromparent exactly says shell widget copyfromparent gets one three resources properly set , badmatch error occurs window created properly set values depends visual used get work \? two parts answer first want application start particular visual second want particular shell within application start different visual second actually easier basic information need available first little harder 'll need initialize much toolkit order determine needed information sample code start application using something default visual compile cc g visual c visual lxaw lxmu lxt lxext lx11 lm run visual geometry 300x300 depth 24 visual staticcolor fg blue bg yellow need move mouse get particular visuals colormap install include x11 intrinsic h include x11 h include x11 shell h typedef struct visual visual int depth options resources visual , visual , , sizeof \( visual \) , \( , visual \) , , null , depth , depth , , sizeof \( int \) , \( , depth \) , , null , desc visual , visual , , null , depth , depth , , null int main \( argc , argv \) int argc char argv xtappcontext app application context widget top toplevel widget display dpy display char saved argument vector int saved argument count colormap colormap created colormap xvisualinfo vinfo template find visual xvisualinfo vinfo list returned list visuals int count number \( 1 \? \) arg args 10 cardinal cnt char name test char class test save command line arguments argc \( char \) xtmalloc \( argc sizeof \( char \) \) bcopy \( \( char \) argv , \( char \) , argc sizeof \( char \) \) following creates dummy toplevel widget retrieve appropriate visual resource cnt 0 top xtappinitialize \( app , class , desc , xtnumber \( desc \) , argc , argv , \( string \) null , args , cnt \) dpy xtdisplay \( top \) cnt 0 \( top , options , resources , xtnumber \( resources \) , args , cnt \) cnt 0 \( options visual options visual ! \( \( top \) \) \) xtsetarg \( args cnt , , options visual \) cnt create appropriate colormap could use default colormap based class visual could examine property rootwindow find right colormap could sorts things colormap xcreatecolormap \( dpy , \( \( top \) \) , options visual , \) xtsetarg \( args cnt , , colormap \) cnt find information visual vinfo \( options visual \) vinfo list \( dpy , , vinfo , count \) \( vinfo list count 0 \) xtsetarg \( args cnt , , vinfo list 0 depth \) cnt \( \( \) vinfo list \) xtdestroywidget \( top \) create real toplevel widget xtsetarg \( args cnt , , \) cnt xtsetarg \( args cnt , , \) cnt top \( \( char \) null , class , applicationshellwidgetclass , dpy , args , cnt \) display application loop handling events xtrealizewidget \( top \) xtappmainloop \( app \) return \( 0 \) 5 visual application use \? point argued one opinion way application know appropriate visual specified user disagree application probably falls category always using default visual hardware specific expects particular visual 24bit truecolor extension \( \) \? application runs isolation depending way server resources may always want application run truecolor mode going mess applications may upset chooses run greyscale instead monochrome example , low end color sun server many different possible visuals monochrome , 256 entry colormap , static gray , static color , 3 3 2 truecolor sgi iris 's offer plus 12 bit truecolor , 24 bit truecolor , overlay plane 6 shell widgets visual \? strictly convention makes possible arbitrary widget know visual uses found looking shell widget ancestor obtaining visual shell widget visual resource , must realize method use visual calls xcreatewindow \( \) also make resource obtained xtgetvalues \( \) widgets find reasonable value probably 7 visual , depth colormap shells inherit \? default value resources set copyfromparent interpreted \( \) , \( \) default visual screen widget parent e applicationshellwidgetclass root widget tree parent widget null , shell copies colormap depth parent uses copyfromparent visual 8 've done still get badmatch error \? resource converters improperly cache references especially true x11r3 earlier versions motif 9 n't widget get destroyed call xtdestroywidget \( \) \? see section 2 8 xt specification eventually get destroyed , immediately intrinsics destroy widget two phase process first children flag set indicate destroyed put list widgets destroyed way pending x events references widget cleaned memory actually freed second phase performed callbacks , event handlers , actions completed , checking next x event point list widget 's memory actually free \( \) 'd , among things caveats trivia , widgets may destroyed intrinsics determine references widgets list , phase 2 destruction occurs immediately also , event loops used , widgets placed destroy list entering inner event loop destroyed returning outer event loop 10 exit still execute \? problem simple entirely reasonable approach exiting application used , calling exit \( \) directly , widget may chance clean external state open sockets , temporary files , allocated x resources , etc \( code simplicity reasons assumes single toplevel widget \) widget toplevelget \( gw \) widget gw widget find toplevel widget top \( top gw xtparent \( top \) top xtparent \( top \) \) empty return \( top \) void exitcallback \( gw , closure , call data \) widget gw widget xtpointer closure data app specified xtpointer call data widget specific data widget toplevel toplevel toplevelget \( gw \) \( toplevel \) make disappear quickly xtdestroywidget \( toplevel \) exit \( 0 \) one see code exit 's immediately destroying toplevel widget trouble phase 2 destruction may never occur works widgets applications work widgets external state might think since works always work remember part reason object oriented approach used one ignorant implementation details widget means widget may change someday require external state cleaned destroy callbacks one alternative modify exitcallback \( \) set global flag test flag private event loop however , private event loops upon tends encourage sloppy , difficult maintain practices try following code instead include x11 intrinsic h extern widget toplevelget \( widget gw endif \) extern boolean \( xtpointer closure endif \) extern void exitcallback \( widget gw , xtpointer closure , xtpointer call data endif \) widget toplevelget \( gw \) widget gw widget find toplevel widget top \( top gw xtparent \( top \) top xtparent \( top \) \) empty return \( top \) void exitcallback \( gw , closure , call data \) widget gw widget xtpointer closure data app specified xtpointer call data widget specific data widget toplevel toplevel toplevelget \( gw \) \( toplevel \) make disappear quickly xtdestroywidget \( toplevel \) \( xtwidgettoapplicationcontext \( gw \) , , \( xtpointer \) null \) boolean \( closure \) xtpointer closure exit \( 0 \) notreached exitcallback \( \) adds work procedure get called application next idle happens events processed destroy callbacks executed 11 resize shell widget \? realized , one n't resize shell widget proper thing resize currently managed child shell widget using xtsetvalues \( \) geometry change propagated shell asks window manager may may allow request however , shell must resource set true otherwise even ask window manager grant request shell resize change position shell , use xtsetvalues \( \) shell , child , within limits window manager granted 12 ca n't xtappaddinput \( \) handle files \? , however unix semantics ready file fit peoples' intuitive model unix terms file descriptor ready reading whenever read \( \) call would block , ignoring setting optional flags indicate block works expected terminals , sockets pipes file read \( \) always return return indicates eof e data result code intrinsics always calls input handler always thinks something read culprit select \( \) system call sysv based os 's poll \( \) system call get around unix system \? best approach use another process check available input file use pipe connect application process pass file descriptor pipe xtappaddinput \( \) suitable program bsd systems tail f filename 's rumored select \( \) systems completely reliable particular ibm aix 3 1 one would work \( several thousand times \) stop event woke seemed result race condition kernel ibm claims fix pyramid , n't work ultrix \( possibly others pipes implemented sockets \) , n't completely broken , although writing side wrote 512 byte blocks reading side received broken put pipe byte time waste lot time reading small blocks \( get detecting situation select \( \) ignore pipe 10 given whole block \) note descriptions used unix terminology read \( \) , file descriptor , pipes , etc os dependent area may identical systems however intrinsic designers felt common enough operation included part toolkit n't also deal signals point n't know 13 good books magazines xt \? favorite definitive reference perspective offers reasonable introduction also goes full details intrinsics started using already familiar xt concepts behind , newcomers may may find useful 've always found accurate complete , means 1000 pages asente , paul j , swick , ralph r , x window system toolkit , complete programmer 's guide specification , digital press , 1990 , isbn 1 051 3 , order number ey dp prentice hall , isbn 0 13 6 also available dec direct 1 800 digital book commonly recomend novices young , doug x window system applications programming xt \( motif version \) , prentice hall , 1989 \( isbn 0 13 8 \) \( isbn 0 13 3 \) course o'reilly entire series manuals x xt o'reilly ordering 800 998 particular , volume 5 xt reference done manual page style 3rd edition extensively goes far beyond mit manual pages i'm finding useful particular , index references manual pages help great deal chasing related information read two periodicals , x resource x journal two dealing specifically x x resource published quarterly , o'reilly , one issues mit x consortium technical conference proceedings advertising 've found informative pretty good depth orders , call 1 800 998 , email ora com editorial matters , email adrian ora com table contents posted math utah edu ftp pub tex bib tex form ftp uu net ftp published ascii form x journal bimonthly trade rag lots advertising articles informative oriented toward less technical audience read see 's going expectation learning great deal \( remember , represent fairly small percentage people \) also , pretty good collection people advisory board columnists call \( 908 \) 563 14 widgets available \? three popular widget sets athena set provided x11 sufficient purposes ugly side recently , 3d look available ftp export lcs mit edu contrib xaw3d tar z motif osf available license fee commonly shipped many workstation vendors platforms \( almost everyone sun \) looks good works well personally think poorly implemented olit open look intrinsics toolkit set widgets implementing sun 's open look specification developed 've never used ca n't comment quality 've heard rumours pain actually get addition following collection widgets also available xtra library widgets sale graphical software technology \( 310 328 \) includes bar graph , stacked bar graph , line graph , pie chart , xy plot , hypertext , help , spreadsheet , data entry form widgets 've never seen ca n't comment fwf free widget foundation attempting collect set freely available widgets included pixmap editor , , others current set widgets obtained via anonymous ftp machine cs uiuc edu \( 128 174 252 1 \) file pub fwf shar z xcu cornell university widgets gene dykes one early widget sets released provides nice appearance buttons mini command language probably widely used xs sony widget set around r3 days seemed disappear looked like promise xw hp widgets precursor motif originally written r3 exists diffs get work r4 r5 , pretty good widget set less died precursor xray toolkit originally implemented apparently provided much experience designers xt xo widget set i'm working 's still primitive give try archive cis ohio state edu pub xo following specialized widgets also available tbl implements layout widgets supports motif widgets children part wcl plots athena plotting widgets \( athena widgets \) contact gnb bby oz au joe athena mit edu 15 alternatives intrinsics \? name language vendor xview c sun oi c parcplace interviews c stanford tcl tk c sprite berkeley edu however much like c admire skill designing implementing intrinsics , hopefully alternative develop next 3 5 years uses object oriented language keep eyes open expect change time language c starts gaining acceptance 16 pass float value xtsetvalues \? first , going wrong structure arg \( essentially \) struct string name long value arg code arg arg xtsetarg \( arg , name , 3 2 \) expands arg arg arg name name arg value 3 2 see normal c type conversions , arg value gets integer 3 instead floating point value 3 2 value copied widget resource , bit pattern wildly different required floating point value , get around \? following macro athena widgets document previous suggestions define \( arg , n , \) \( sizeof \( float \) sizeof \( \) \) xtsetarg \( arg , n , \( \) \) else ld \( \) \( \) xtsetarg \( arg , n , ld \) 17 write resource converter \? courtesy rich thomson \( rthomson dsd es com \) following discussion resource converters assumes r4 \( r5 \) intrinsics resource converters changed r3 r4 allow caching converted values several main types resource converters string data type data type string data type data type \) string data type usually string data type converter fixed set strings converted data type values often used map enumerated names enumerated values name value true 1 false 0 case , string data type converter needs compare resource value list fixed strings readily accomplished use quark mechanism resource manager resource value turned quark , unique representation string fits single word resource quark compared quarks fixed strings representing enumerated values many enumerated strings converter \( many converters , small number strings \) , global initialization routine might used turn resource strings quarks way , first time one converters used , strings turned quarks held static variables use next one converters ii \) data type string type converter slightly easier string data type converters since use quarks n't necessary instead , data type value simply converted string value , probably use sprintf data type string converters useful applications wish convert internal data type value string write valid resource specification file mechanism used provide snapshot application state file snapshot used restore program known state via usual x resource database mechanisms taking trouble write string data type converter , n't much extra effort write data type string converter writing time helps ensure consistent iii \) data type data type type converter used convert existing data type value another data type instance , x pixel value converted rgb data type contains separate fields red , green blue type signature resource converter follows typedef boolean \( \) \( display , xrmvalueptr , cardinal , xrmvalueptr , xrmvalueptr , xtpointer \) display dpy xrmvalueptr args cardinal num args xrmvalueptr xrmvalueptr toval xtpointer converter data converter invoked , argument points source x resource manager value toval argument points destination x resource manager value converter data argument opaque pointer converter specific data specified converter registered args num args arguments allow extra information passed converter invoked instance , pixel rgb structure converter discussed would need colormap visual arguments lookup pixel obtain rgb values corresponding pixel care must taken toval argument following type definition specifies size location converted value typedef struct unsigned int size addr , xrmvalueptr converter invoked , address may point location given size converted value location null former case , converter ensure size destination area large enough handle converted value destination area large enough , converter set size amount space needed return false caller ensure enough space allocated converter size large enough , converter simply copy converted value space given return true location null , converter assign location address static variable containing converted value return true writing group converters , code often repeated becomes convenient define macro define done \( var , type \) \( toval addr \) \( toval size sizeof \( type \) \) toval size sizeof \( type \) return false else \( \( type \) toval addr \) var else toval addr \( \) var toval size sizeof \( type \) return true define \( str \) \( toval addr toval size sizeof \( string \) \) toval size sizeof \( string \) return false else toval addr \( \) str toval size sizeof \( string \) return true inside converter , good idea perform little safety checking num args args arguments ensure converter called properly written converter , need register intrinsics intrinsics invokes resource converters creating widgets fetching resource values resource database register converter single application context , use xtappsettypeconverter void xtappsettypeconverter \( context , , , converter , args , num args , cache , destructor \) xtappcontext context string string converter args cardinal num args cache destructor register converter application contexts , use void \( , , converter , args , num args , cache , destructor \) string string converter args cardinal num args cache destructor r3 intrinsics , routines superseded xtappsettypeconverter whenever possible , newer routines used converter registered intrinsics , cache argument specifies converted resource values cached n't cache converted values cache converted values cache converted values per display basis caching converted values require round trip server good idea \( instance string pixel conversions \) destructor argument routine invoked resource destroyed , either cached reference count zero widget owning value destroyed following type definition typedef void \( \) \( xtappcontext , xrmvalueptr , xtpointer , xrmvalueptr , cardinal \) xtappcontext context xrmvalueptr xtpointer converter data xrmvalueptr args cardinal num args destructor invoked free auxiliary storage associated argument , actually free storage pointed argument \( addr \) destructor passed extra arguments passed converter conversion performed \( instance , colormap visual arguments string pixel converter since destructor would need free allocated pixel colormap \) well private data passed converter registered sample converter code found following files mit r5 distribution mit lib xt converters c contrib lib pext converters c contrib lib pext converters h 18 open multiple displays \? see multi user application software using xt , x resource , issue 3 , \( summer 1992 \) oliver jones complete coverage issues involved answer based article nutshell , one uses \( \) add display single application context \( \) shutdown display remove application context real problems occur trying close display happen 3 ways 1 user selects quit button one displays , 2 user window manager send wm delete window message , 3 server disconnect possibly message , server shutdown crash , network failure 'll assume deal gracefully 1 2 since merely problem translating widget display removing display , read oliver jones article third one difficult handle following based oliver jones article include difficult problem difficulty arises xlib design presumed error always fatal essentially true single display x based application , true multiple display program application things display information x server x error occurs error handler called returns exit \( \) happens way around use setjmp longjmp avoid returning error handler following code fragment demonstrates include setjmp h jmp buf void \( dpy \) display dpy \( dpy \) longjmp \( , 1 \) main \( \) \( setjmp \( \) 0 \) \( \) xtappmainloop \( app context \) \( \) something given display pointer go back application specific data perform necessary cleanup also call \( \) unfamiliar setjmp longjmp , setjmp \( \) first called returns 0 save 's enough information jmp buf latter execution longjmp \( \) return program state setjmp \( \) executed return value second setjmp \( \) value second argument longjmp \( \) several caveats using purpose adequate problems might run resource converters improperly cache resources likely symptoms xlib errors , , may problems total number displays open since typically limited number file available 32 typical value may also run authorization problems trying connect display much discussion comp windows x topic november 91 robert scheifler posted article basically said way xlib change 19 changed r3 r4 r5 \? addresses changes intrinsics first , general changes release described , certainly incomplete , list new functions added others listed brevity primary goal much following information retrieved chapter 13 mit xt intrinsics manual o'reilly volume 5 , 3rd edition r3 r4 addition gadgets \( widgets \) new resource type converter interface handle additional data variable argument list interface define 4 \( added release \) , changed core initialize , core set values added count parameters event handlers continue dispatch parameter added core set values almost specification changed core compress exposure changed enumerated data type boolean core class changed enumerated data type boolean constraint get values hook added extension record core initialize hook obsolete info passed core initialize shell root geometry manager added extension record core set values hook obsolete info passed core set values calling xtquerygeometry \( \) must store complete geometry added \( \) actually works r4 r4 r5 psuedo resource added searching app default , files , made flexible customization resource added per screen resource database support permanently allocated strings allocated strings required several class fields args argument xtappinitialize , , , , xtinitialize changed cardinal int many performance improvements \( summarized article xt performance improvements release 5 gabe dov x resource , issue 3 \) \( \) augmented \( \) avoid string copies several fields class record indicated needing permanent strings using array strings resources callback lists redesigned use less memory translation manager redesigned rewritten takes less memory , translation tables faster , cache action bindings keycode cached better sharing gc 's fields window widget translation uses less space faster malloc space widget name since quark available widget space allocated include constraints several example programs , 26 reduction memory usage functions new r5 \( \) gc fields \( \) get action table class \( \) return resource database screen \( \) register language procedure called set locale functions new r4 \( \) procedure call every action xtappinitialize \( \) lots initialization work \( \) cache reference count converter \( \) specify default resources xtappsettypeconverter \( \) register new style converter \( \) directly execute callback list \( \) invoke new style converter \( \) release cached resource value \( \) release list cached resource values \( \) find call resource converter \( \) invoke old style converter \( \) return display \( \) issue warning conversion \( \) find file \( \) retrieve keysym modifies action \( \) return name class \( \) get constraints widget \( \) return keycode keysym mapping table \( \) read multi click time \( \) retrieve event \( \) obtain selection value incrementally \( \) obtain selection value incrementally \( \) initialize widget class manually \( \) register event handler others \( \) register event handler without modify input mask \( \) test subclass object \( \) test subclass \( \) return list \( \) retrieve recent event time action popping widget action popping widget macro structure offsets \( \) make selection data incrementally \( \) map spring loaded popup \( \) indicate action procedure needs passive grab \( \) remove function called every action xtresolvepathname \( \) find file \( \) return screen object \( \) set multi click time \( \) set wm colormap windows custom colormaps \( \) cancel passive button grab \( \) cancel passive key grab \( \) release active keyboard grab \( \) release active pointer grab \( \) interfaces bunch functions xtwindowofobject \( \) return window nearest widget ancestor replacement \( \) \( \) r3 \( \) \( \) r3 xtaddinput \( \) xtappaddinput \( \) r3 xtaddtimeout \( \) xtappaddtimeout \( \) r3 xtaddworkproc \( \) \( \) r3 \( \) \( \) r4 \( \) r3 \( \) \( \) r3 \( \) \( \) r3 \( \) r3 \( \) r3 \( \) r3 xtinitialize \( \) xtappinitialize \( \) r3 xtmainloop \( \) xtappmainloop \( \) r3 \( action \) \( action \) r4 \( action \) \( action \) r4 \( \) \( \) r3 \( \) \( \) r3 \( \) \( \) r3 \( \) \( \) r3 \( \) r3 \( \) \( \) r3 \( \) \( \) r3 \( \) \( \) r3 \( \) \( \) r3 \( \) \( \) r3 20 resources loaded \? resources widget filled following places \( highest priority lowest priority \) 1 args passed creation time 2 command line arguments 3 user 's per host defaults file 4 user 's defaults file 5 user 's per application default file 6 system wide per application default file note 2 6 read application startup result steps 3 6 single resource database used queries per host defaults file contains applications executing specific computer file either specified environment variable set file home xdefaults host used user defaults file either obtained resource manager property root window display set file home xdefaults used typically , program xrdb used set resource manager property please note kept relatively small client connects display must transfer property size around 1 reasonable toolkits may track changes resource manager user may many per application default files containing specific application intrinsics quite flexible file found read next part describes various environment variables effect file found system wide per application default files typically found usr lib x11 app defaults file found resources used intrinsics quite flexible file found read next part describes various environment variables effect file found thanks oliver jones \( oj pictel com \) following , 6 92 use several environment variables control resources loaded xt based programs xfilesearchpath , xuserfilesearchpath , xapplresdir environment variables control xt looks application defaults files application initializing xt loads one app defaults file path defined xfilesearchpath another path defined xuserfilesearchpath set xfilesearchpath software installed system way app defaults files appear several different directory hierarchies suppose , example , running sun 's open windows , also r4 x applications installed usr lib x11 app defaults could set value like xfilesearchpath , would cause xt look app defaults files usr lib x11 usr openwin lib \( wherever openwinhome located \) setenv xfilesearchpath usr lib x11 n openwinhome lib n value environment variable colon separated list pathnames pathnames contain replacement characters follows \( see xtresolvepathname \( \) \) n value filename parameter , application 's class name value file type case , literal string app defaults c customization resource \( r5 \) suffix none app defaults l language , locale , \( e g ja jp euc \) l language part l \( e g ja \) territory part display 's language string c part display 's language string let 's take apart example suppose application 's class name myterm also , suppose open windows installed usr openwin \( notice example omits locale specific lookup \) usr lib x11 n means usr lib x11 app defaults myterm openwinhome lib n means usr openwin lib app defaults myterm application , xt tries open app defaults files , order shown soon finds one , reads uses , stops looking others effect path search first usr lib x11 , usr openwin let 's consider another example time , let 's set xuserfilesearchpath looks file myterm ad current working directory , myterm directory app defaults setenv xuserfilesearchpath n ad home app defaults n first path list expands myterm ad second expands home app defaults myterm convenient setting debugging follows imake convention naming app defaults file myterm ad application 's source directory , run application directory working still resources loaded properly note looking app default files xuserfilesearchpath , bizarre reason , neither type file suffix defined useless r5 , 's another twist may specify customization resource value example , might run myterm application like myterm xrm customization color one pathname specifications value usr lib x11 app defaults n c expanded pathname would usr lib x11 app defaults myterm color c substitution character takes value customization resource default xfilesearchpath , compiled xt , usr lib x11 l n c \( r5 \) usr lib x11 l n c \( r5 \) usr lib x11 n c \( r5 \) usr lib x11 l n usr lib x11 l n usr lib x11 n \( note sites replace usr lib x11 projectroot batch default settings \) default xuserfilesearchpath , also compiled xt , root l n c \( r5 \) root l n c \( r5 \) root n c \( r5 \) root l n root l n root n root either value xapplresdir user 's home directory xapplresdir set set xuserfilesearchpath value default , xt ignores xapplresdir altogether notice quick dirty way making application find app defaults file current working directory set xapplresdir , single dot r3 , machinery worked differently r3 , many people set xapplresdir value , dot followed slash 21 order callbacks executed \? \( courtesy donna converse , converse expo lcs mit edu 5 10 92 \) intrinsics library guarantee order widget writer application writer ability modify entire contents callback list neither one currently knows intrinsics cannot guarantee order execution application programmer cannot rely widget writer widget writer required document widget add remove callbacks list effect therefore functionality contained callback independent functionality contained callbacks list even though xt standard definition xtaddcallback says callback name specifies callback list procedure appended may infer word appended callback routines called order added callback list 22 know widget visible \? \( courtesy donna converse , converse expo lcs mit edu 5 14 92 \) building widget needs know visible set visible interest field core window completely obscured , core visible flag goes false however , window iconified , flag stays set true right , everything implemented correctly demonstrates deficiency x protocol , core widget reflecting capabilities protocol \( deficiency information available one way , case inconvenient way \) xt specification accurate , second third paragraphs section 7 10 2 , read section carefully visible field change response event received window goes viewable , , widget ancestor , occurs protocol deficiency visibility state viewable state specific meanings x protocol see glossary xlib x protocol reference manual problem mwm something else needs done \? 'll see window manager , window manager problem mwm , fastest way determine window iconified \? application writer , keep track global boolean action routine translations shell widget contains custom widget custom widget writer , see map state field returned call suggestions 23 widget xt , e \( \) \? ca n't 24 use xtmalloc , xtfree , etc \? unfortunately , code calls malloc \( \) , \( \) \( \) tends ignore possibility returning null best handled something like ptr \( type \) malloc \( sizeof \( type \) \) \( ! ptr \) perror \( malloc xyzzy \( \) \) exit \( 1 \) handle common case intrinsics define functions xtmalloc \( \) , \( \) , \( \) , \( \) \( \) use standard c language functions malloc \( \) , \( \) \( \) execute \( \) null value returned xt error handlers supposed return effectively exits addition , \( \) called null pointer , uses xtmalloc \( \) get initial space allows code like \( ! ptr \) ptr \( type \) malloc \( sizeof \( type \) \) else ptr \( type \) \( ptr , sizeof \( type \) \( count 1 \) \) count written ptr \( ptr , sizeof \( ptr \) count \) also , xtfree \( \) accepts null pointer argument generally , 've found xt functions use however , anytime i'm allocating anything potentially large use standard functions fully recover enough memory errors \( \) \( \) macros allocating structure copying string struct abc xyzzy char ptr char str xyzzy \( struct abc \) takes care type casting ptr \( str \) strict interpretation intrinsics reference manual allow implementation provide functions malloc \( \) free \( \) e code char ptr ptr xtmalloc \( 100 \) free \( ptr \) may work personally , 'd call implementation broken complain vendor common error motif programmers use xtfree \( \) string really using \( \) 25 debug xt application \? first , 'd recomend getting purify pure software great package tracing memory problems sun 's 's bit pricey 'd still recomend excuse marketing blurb \( contact support pure com info \) purify inserts additional checking instructions directly object code produced existing compilers instructions check every memory read write performed program test detect several types access errors , reading memory , writing past malloc 'd bounds , writing freed memory purify inserts checking logic code program , including third party vendor object code libraries , verifies system call interfaces addition , purify tracks memory usage identifies individual memory leaks using novel garbage collection techniques purify 's nearly comprehensive memory access checking slows target program typically factor two five alternative package n't pricey \( 395 sun \) , runs many unix 's pretty similar features sentinel debugging environment replaces malloc \( \) several c library functions add additional checks \( contact com info \) next , getting sort xlib error , 'll need run synchronous mode , easily accomplished sync command line argument setting variable 1 debugger set break point exit \( \) let trace back original xlib function called n't run synchronous mode , actual error may occured number calls xlib previously since xlib calls buffered replies server asynchronous next , trouble window layout , use undocumented resource class resource cause widget name identified window example example xload xrm ' example xwininfo tree click new xload window give normal information widget name class window included help checking location size errant widgets next , trouble geometry managers want test way widget manages 's children , try export lcs mit edu contrib tar z acts filter children geometry manager checks behaviour 's clever idea unfortunate problem debugging callback application executing grab keyboard mouse \( pulldown menu \) server effectively locks 'll need go another machine kill debugger manually server locks application said one else access keyboard application stopped waiting debugger waiting commands unfortunately ca n't give input going application stopped best way debug kind problem two machines desk , running program debugger \( environment \) one machine , running application , possibly using command sequence like xhost thismachine thismachine setenv display 0 thismachine gdb application favorite debugger xhost thismachine thismachine gdb application \( gdb \) set environment display 0 \( gdb \) run believe , c interpreter graphical debugger method dealing calling xlib functions release grabs debugging widget problems requires pretty good debugging skills knowledge widgets work go long way without knowing internals particular widget far without understanding widget works use conditional adding print statements debugger help great deal 26 n't xtaddinput \( \) , xtaddtimeout \( \) xtaddworkproc \( \) work \? got delicate problem three routines xtaddinput , xtaddtimeout xtaddworkproc problem use application seem properly made handy little everything works perfect , real application nothing happens introduction r3 \( \) functions obsoleted routines \( see changes r3 , r4 , r5 \) happens use default application context different one may created since events timeouts distributed per application context basis using two application contexts , wo n't get events example cnt 0 toplevel xtappinitialize \( app , class , desc , xtnumber \( desc \) , argc , argv , , args , cnt \) xtaddtimeout \( \) xtaddworkproc \( \) xtappmainloop \( app \) would never invoke timeout 27 implement drag drop \? \( courtesy roger reynolds , netcom com 19 feb 93 \) drag n drop moving data clients , fashion motif version 1 2 supports drag n drop capabilities , openlook supported n along two protocols compatable , far know , published wrote package called rdd designed flexible public protocol drag 'n drop operations clients intention provide tool would make easy people support standard drag n drop protocol programs develop contribute sell , regardless widget set used \( long based xt \) implementation based upon understanding icccm conventions , details read code heard dozens people using rdd like feel works whole lot better motif 1 2 stuff also , seem many think neat constrained use motif anyway latest rdd \( stuff \) available ftp netcom com , pub \( possibly older \) version also available export lcs mit edu contrib pete ware ware cis ohio state edu cis dept , ohio state university w \( 614 \) 292 228 hall , neil ave h \( 614 \) 538 columbus , oh 43210
ecs comm mot com \( steve \) subject teleuse , uim x , c organization motorola land mobile products sector nntp posting host 145 1 155 12 lines 32 article 1993apr1 6086 ctp com , ctp com \( hubert chou \) writes anyone good ideas integrate c code elegantly teleuse , uim x interface architect generated code \? source would great , suggestions welcome chou \( 617 \) 374 ctp com n't know great deal support c uim x , tell good support teleuse teleuse call c method module use language interface code use c application code tell real neat stuff coming teleuse soon regard c , ca n't give many details talk local sales rep get near want example code c integrates teleuse look teleuse examples thermometer steve voice \( 708 \) 576 e mail ecs comm mot com u post motorola inc 1301 e rd schaumburg , il
jan camhpp12 mdcbbs com \( jan vandenbrande \) subject xv root vue \? \( xloadimage \) article ug 1993apr5 organization e \( division eds \) , cypress ca lines 16 nntp posting host 134 244 49 156 related note , use xv display colored gifs root display hp vue \? vue display xbm 's backdrop style manager xv seem able override whatever vue puts thanks , jan jan vandenbrande jan ug eds com \( new address \) jan usc edu \( school address , forwards \) uucp uunet , uupsi ! ug ! jan
zack netcom com \( zack smith \) subject strange exposure problem organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 19 hi , i'm trying write motif program interactive unix machine , i'm observing strange behavior program attempts expose namely , xlib operations work , particular , expose consist two xfillrectangle calls followed calls , reasons unknown point calls failing whenever pulldown popup menu \( clicked \) moved direction drawing area , move , still part drawing area also happens less consistently pulldown popup moved direction assuming code anything incredibly odd , server bug \? thanks , zack smith
yfn ysu edu \( joshua p weage \) subject x pc organization youngstown state youngstown free net lines 18 nntp posting host yfn ysu edu heard two packages pc support x win first linux free unix package second x appeal , sounds pretty good found garbo fi ftp pc demo dir files zip zip drivers zip get started josh joshua weage u snail 277 spring rd , , mi e mail freenet cwru edu yfn ysu edu fidonet joshua weage 1 2340 130 ideas one elses ! !
andy ice stx com \( andy moore \) subject q avoid xopendisplay hang \? keywords xlib reply andy ice stx com organization hughes stx , , md lines 13 i'm writing , simple x version , want put message default list displays problem xopendisplay hangs one displays currently controlled xdm \( login screen \) 've manuals faq n't see simple way see display ahead time , get xopendisplay fail short period time hints , suggestions , clues , pointers info \? thanks andy moore \( andy ice stx com \) could say 've lost faith politicians seem like game show hosts sting
ucsee berkeley edu \( edward wang \) subject widget source code needed organization university california , berkeley lines 10 nntp posting host ucsee berkeley edu i'm considering writing widgets , like sample widget source code look first could find something like \? archives accessible anonymous ftp contain information \? thanks , edward
ahlenius rtsg mot com \( mark ahlenius \) subject converting color gif x pixmap summary convert color gif color pixmap keywords gif pixmap nntp posting host organization motorola inc , cellular infrastructure group lines 34 looked faq sections seen answer x motif application written couple gif files \( pict \) scanned color scanner would like able convert gif files format could read application displayed background main window preferably pixmaps , perhaps ximage found functions pbmplus program suite convert gif xbm , monochrome , really need color looked xv , reads gif , writes several formats , found way write file read pixmap easy way \? email responses preferred thanks ! ahlenius rtsg mot com regards mark ahlenius voice \( 708 \) 632 email ahlenius marble rtsg mot com motorola inc fax \( 708 \) 632 arlington , hts il , usa
jck catt citri edu au \( justin \) subject honors degrees mean anything \? reply jck catt citri edu au organization catt centre citri , melbourne , australia lines 9 got comp windows x \? , \( \) justin systems programmer project team c collaborative information technology research institute melbourne vic internet jck jaguar catt citri edu au phone 61 03 282 australia
tim kimba catt citri edu au \( tim liddelow \) subject help building x11r5 gcc keywords x11r5 , gcc organization catt centre citri , melbourne , australia lines 16 people please send hints building x11r5 gcc 2 3 3 \? pitfalls avoided \? hints \? would appreciate hearing peoples' stories tim tim liddelow \( \) fork \( \) systems programmer centre advanced technology telecommunications brain bad day citri , melbourne , australia internet tim kimba catt citri edu au phone 61 3 282 2455 fax 61 3 282
chongo toad com \( landon c noll \) subject reposting 10th international obfuscated c code contest rules \( 1 2 \) expires 8 may 93 00 00 00 gmt reply chongo toad com \( landon c noll \) distribution world organization nebula consultants san francisco lines 864 keywords ioccc received number requests reposting international obfuscated c code contest rules guidelines also people requested rules posted wider set groups sorry cross posting technical clarifications made rules guidelines \( see diff marks right hand edge \) rules guidelines year remain , people already process submitting entries 1993 ioccc need worry changes chongo landon curt noll cc chongo toad com larry bassel lab sun com ! bin sh shell archive \( shar 3 32 \) made 04 05 1993 23 00 utc chongo toad com source directory tmp existing files overwritten shar contains length mode name r r r rules r r r guidelines r r r mkentry c r r r obfuscate info rules echo x extracting rules \( text \) sed 's x ' 'shar eof' rules international obfuscated c code contest rules x xcopyright \( c \) landon curt noll larry bassel , 1993 xall rights reserved permission personal , education non profit use xgranted provided copyright notice included entirety xand remains unaltered uses must receive prior permission writing xfrom landon curt noll larry bassel x x obfuscate tr v , , 1 render obscure x b darken 2 confuse emotions obfuscated x judgment , darken ob \( intensive \) x lat , darken , dark obfuscation n x adj x x contest x x write obscure obfuscated c program rules x show importance programming style , ironic way x stress c compilers unusual code x illustrate c language x provide safe forum poor c code \) x x changes 1993 draft noted change bars x x x x help us volume entries , ask follow rules x x 1 \) entry must complete program x x 2 \) entry must 3217 bytes length number characters x excluding whitespace \( tab , space , newline \) , excluding x followed either whitespace end file , must 1536 x x 3 \) entry must submitted following format x x entry 1993 n \( n new entry , replaces older entry \) title entry \( see comments \) xentry entry number 0 7 inclusive \( 1st entry 0 \) date time submission utc \( see comments \) xhost machine \( \) os \( \) entry tested x use tab indented lines needed x remark x place remarks entry section would helpful x indent remarks 4 spaces , though x requirement also , possible , try avoid going beyond x column blank lines permitted x author xname name xorg school company organization xaddr postal address x use tab indented lines continue x n't forget include country xemail email address well known site registered domain x give several forms , list separate tab indented lines xanon n \( remain anonymous , n ok publish info \) x info xif program needs info file , place uuencoded copy section case multiple info files , use multiple info entry need info file , skip section x build uuencoded copy command \( \) used compile build program xin section must uudecode file named 'build' resulting xfile must 255 bytes less x program uuencoded copy program section must uudecode file named c' resulting file must follow rule 2 x end x x regarding format x x title must match expression za z0 9 za z0 9 x must 1 12 characters length x x suggested , required , title x incorporate username case multiple authors , x consider using parts authors x x date entry section given respect x utc format date returned asctime \( \) x using c locale \( see guidelines info \) x x may correct revise previously submitted entry sending x contest email address sure set 'fix' x entry section 'n' corrected entry must use x title entry number corrected x sure note resubmittion remark well x x exception header , text outside x format may ignored judges need tell judges x something , put remark section , send separate x email message judges x x information author section published unless x 'y' given respective author 's line x x credit multiple authors , include author section x author start author line , x found entry build sections x x entry 's remarks include x program x run program \( sample args input \) x special compile execution instructions , x special filename requirements \( see rule 4 5 \) x information data files x think program obfuscated x note entry submission previous entry x remarks \( humorous otherwise \) x x rot13 entry 's remarks may suggest certain x portions remarks entry wins award x x info files used supplement entry x required exist x x entry need info file , skip info x section entry needs multiple info files , use multiple x info sections , one per info file describe x info file remark section x x 4 \) entry selected winner , modified follows x x 'build' incorporated makefile , 'build' removed x c' renamed entry 's title , followed optional x digit , followed ' c' x entry compiled file name entry 's x title , possibly followed digit x x entry requires build file exist , state x entry 's remark section makefile arranged execute x build shell script containing 'build' information name x build shell script entry 's title , possibly followed x digit , followed ' x x needed , entry 's remarks indicate entry must x changed order deal new filenames x x 5 \) build file , source resulting executable x treated read files entry needs modify files , x make modify copy appropriate file x occurs , state entry 's remarks x x 6 \) entries cannot compiled ansi c compiler rejected x use common c \( k r extensions \) permitted , long x cause compile errors ansi c compilers x x 7 \) program must original work programs must x public domain copyrighted programs rejected x x 8 \) entries must received prior 07 may 93 0 00 utc \( utc x essentially equivalent greenwich mean time \) email entries x x ! apple , pyramid , sun , uunet ! hoptoad ! obfuscate x obfuscate toad com x x request message use subject x x possible , request hold emailing entries x 1 mar 93 0 00 utc early entries accepted , however x attempt email confirmation first author x entries received 1 mar 93 0 00 utc x x 9 \) person may submit 8 entries per contest year entry x must sent separate email letter x x 10 \) entries requiring human interaction built allowed x compiling entry produce file \( files \) may executed x x 11 \) programs require special privileges \( setuid , , super user , x special owner group \) allowed x x xfor information x x judging done landon noll larry bassel please send x questions comments contest , x x ! apple , pyramid , sun , uunet ! hoptoad ! judges \( address x judges toad com submitting entries \) x x rules guidelines may \( often \) change year x year sure current rules guidelines x prior submitting entries obtain , send email address x use subject 'send rules' x x one may obtain winners previous contests \( 1984 date \) , via ftp x x host ftp uu net \( 192 48 96 9 \) x user anonymous x pass yourname yourhost x dir pub ioccc x x last resort , previous winners may obtained sending email x address please use subject 'send year , x year single 4 digit year , year range , 'all' x x landon curt noll cc chongo toad com bassel lab sun com shar eof chmod 0444 rules echo restore rules failed set `wc c wc c 1 test wc c ! echo original size , current size wc c fi guidelines echo x extracting guidelines \( text \) sed 's x ' 'shar eof' guidelines international obfuscated c code contest guidelines , hints comments x xcopyright \( c \) landon curt noll larry bassel , 1993 xall rights reserved permission personal , education non profit use xgranted provided copyright notice included entirety xand remains unaltered uses must receive prior permission writing xfrom landon curt noll larry bassel x file x x file intended help people wish submit entries x international obfuscated c code contest \( ioccc short \) x x ioccc rules , though contain comments x guidelines viewed hints suggestions x entries violate guidelines remain within rules x allowed even , safer remain within guidelines x x read current ioccc rules , prior submitting entries x rules typically sent guidelines x x changes 1993 draft noted change bars x x new 1993 x x entry format better \( us anyway \) program mkentry c x updated see entry format x x reject entries cannot compiled using ansi c x compiler certain old obfuscation hacks cause ansi c compilers x fits longer permitted new issues deal x non integral array types , variable number arguments , c preprocessor x directives exit \( \) function see likes dislikes x x suggestions x x encouraged examine winners previous contests see x information details get previous winners x x keep mind rules change year year , winning entries x may valid entries year unique novel one year x might next year x x entry usually examined number ways typically apply x number tests entry x x look original source x convert ansi tri graphs ascii x c pre process source ignoring ' lines x c pre process source ignoring ' ' lines x run c x examine algorithm x lint x compile x execute x x consider entry looks tests x ask entry remains obscure x up' c pre processor c x x entry need well , tests certain x cases , test important entries compete x creative source need well x others terms algorithm hand , given x two entries , inclined pick entry x something interesting run x x try avoid limiting creativity rules , leave x contest open creative rule interpretation real life x programming , interpreting requirements document customer request x important reason , often award abuse x rules' entry illustrates point ironic way x x plan abuse rules , suggest let us know x remarks section please note invitation abuse x invitation break strict comes x 3217 byte size limit also , abusing entry format tends x annoy amuse x x realize holes rules , invite entries x attempt exploit award abuse rules' x plug hole next year even , attempt use x smallest plug needed , smaller \) x x check program sure works sometimes make x effort debug entry slight problem , particularly x near final round hand , seen x best entries fall n't work x x tend look prime number printer , claims x 16 prime number bug , better x documenting noting entry sometimes prints 4th power x prime mistake would save entry sometimes , x strange bug feature even help entry ! course , correctly x working entry best x x likes dislikes x x masses defines obscure source become x tend masses defines due pre processor tests x apply simply abusing defines bar wo n't go far x program well rounded confusion x x many ansi c compilers dislike following code , x x define define x foo n't expect turn define foo x x int x j n't use implicit type declaration x int k x x suggest compile entry ansi c compiler x must use non ansi c , k r c , must avoid areas result x compile link errors ansi c compilers x x unfortunately , ansi c compilers require array indexes x integral type thus , following classical obfuscation hacks x used 1993 rule may relaxed future contests x x int x char c x c use c instead x \( 3 \) string use string 3 instead x x entry uses functions variable number x arguments , careful systems implement va list wide variety x ways , number operations using va list x portable must used x x assigning non va list variable va list variable x casting non va list variable va list variable x passing va list variable function expecting non va list arg x passing non va list variable function expecting va list arg x performing arithmetic va list variables x using va list structure union x x particular , treat va list variables char 's x x avoid using h , use h instead x x use c preprocessor directives \( define , , ifdef , \) , x leading ' ' must first character line x c allow whitespace leading ' ' , many x x exit \( \) function returns void systems , entries x must assume returns int x x small programs best short , obscure concise x programs complex winners , x serve useful purpose often program people x attempt completely understand reason , look x programs compact , instructional x x one line programs short one line programs , say around 80 x bytes long getting close 160 bytes bit long opinion x x tend dislike programs x x hardware specific x os un x version specific x \( index strchr differences ok , socket streams specific x code likely \) x dump core compiler warnings x \( ok warn us header item \) x wo n't compile bsd sys v un x x abusing build file get around size limit x obfuscate excessive use ansi tri graphs x longer need x similar previous winners x identical previous losers \) x x unless cramped space , unless entering x one category , suggest format program x creative way simply forming excessively long lines x x build file used try get around size x limit one thing make use several 's help , x quite another use 200 bytes 's order x try squeeze source size limit feel x free make use build file space , better x show amount restraint x x allowed whitespace , certain cases impact x program size \( certain point \) , want get x away source simply compact blob characters x x given two versions program , one compact blob x code , formatted like typical c x program , tend favor second version course , third x version program formatted interesting x obfuscated way , would definitely win first two ! x x suggest avoid trying self x program amazed many different sizes claim x smallest nothing wrong self replicating x programs fact , number winners self replicating x might want avoid claim , lest \( others \) x know smaller one ! x x x client entries portable possible entries x adapt wide collection environments favored n't x depend particular type display example , n't depend x color given size n't require backing store x x x client entries avoid using x related libraries x software wide spread use ask x client x entries restrict low level xlib x athena widget set \( libx11 , libxaw , libxmu libxt \) x n't use tif , xv ew , ok toolkits , since everyone x avoid depending particular window manager x everyone x11r5 , people stuck back x11r4 \( x earlier \) , try target x11r5 without requiring x11r5 better x yet , try make entry run version 11 x window systems x x x client entries depend particular items x xdefaults must , sure note required lines x remark section x x like programs x x concise small need x something least quasi interesting x pass lint without complaint \( requirement , nice \) x portable x unique novel obfuscation style x make use number different types obfuscation x make us laugh throw \) x x types programs ca n't excel areas course , x program n't excel areas , well several x areas really help x x freely admit interesting , creative humorous comments x remark section helps chance winning x read many twisted entries , would enjoy good laugh two x think readers contest winners well x x creative ! x x xentry format x x order help us process many entries , must request x assistance formatting entries certain way format , x addition , allows us quickly separate information x author program \( see judging process \) x x provided program , mkentry , example x format entries aware following warning x found mkentry c x x program attempts implement ioccc rules every x attempt made make sure program produces x entry conforms contest rules cases , x program differs contest rules , x contest rules used sure check x contest rules submitting entry x x required use mkentry convenient , however , x attempts uuencode needed files , attempt check x entry size rules x x suggestions , comments , fixes complaints x mkentry c program , please send email judges \( see \) x x following sample entry x x entry 1993 n chonglab xentry 0 mon mar 1 08 45 20 1993 xhost un x v6 , 45 x 2 , 70 x remark x non obfuscated obfuscated c program x x likely win prize expect x short example ! x author xname landon curt noll xorg ioccc judging group xaddr toad hall x po box x san francisco , california x 0608 x usa xemail chongo toad com xanon n x author xname larry bassel xorg ioccc judging group xaddr toad hall x po box x san francisco , california x 0608 x usa xemail hoptoad ! sun ! lab x lab sun com xanon n x info xbegin 444 info file p 7 \) \( ac 2 ! , 86yd vx ! vql `q 3ds ! p xm \( \) e b` 4 5r b ! f w \( 5r v \( 5d 6 xm eo b ! b ! n ' \) \( ! pig f n 5d \( ' ! r 5d \( xm 7 , ai r ! c w ! '0 86yd \( yo ! f4 6x xm \( 5n f n9 ! \( \) e9 x \( l ! ae xm b ! u \( uu w0 ! p b ! \) 7 6 n \( en \( ' r xm f 9g \) 2 ! , 86yd vx ! vql h 5 aa ! \( es ! rx aa ! \( es \( yo p \( ` \( es \( yo ! \( '1h870 f \( es xm i4 \( es ! \( '1h870 7 , f ! r \) 2t f xm \( s0 w0 bp \( ' ! e g b ! \( \( '1h870 ae xm 2 ! 2 ! o9 5d \( 7 , 22 ! w \( w \( ua x9 gd vel ! r ! ! es \( \( `` x` xend x build xbegin 444 build , ' \) \( uo \( ' ! r v x` xend x program xbegin 444 prog c xm 6 b gl \( \( 214 \) 5 7u 5 , 15 \) 1d ! \( ` \( ' ! r ! , 86yd xm vx 3f l ! f w \( \( 'd 0v u f ! \( , q eqn x \( bd b e h \( ` p 3l \? x` xend x end x x typically build file assume source prog c x compile prog entry wins , rename x source binary avoid filename collision tradition , x use name entry 's title , followed optional x digit case name conflicts x x entry somehow likely award , x would use chonglab c chonglab x x entry depends , requires build , source x binary files particular name , please say x remark section case applies , would helpful x one following x x tell us change filename \( \) entry x x build file make copies files example x x cc prog c special name need special binary x x rm f special src c need special source x cp prog c special src c x cc special src c special name x x rm f special build need special build x tail 4 build special build x sh special build x x assume use entry title send us version x build program files uses name convention x uuencode files data sections x x entry needs modify source , info binary files , x please say remark section try avoid x touching original build , source binary files x arrange make copies files intend modify x allow people generate entry scratch x x remember entry may built without build file x typically incorporate build lines makefile x build file must exist , say remark section x x entry needs special info files , uuencode x info sections case multiple info files , x use multiple info sections info files needed , x skip info section x x info files intended input , detailed information x fit well remark section example , x entry implements compiler might want provide sample x programs user compile entry might want include x lengthy design document , might appropriate x file x x info files used supplement entry x example , info files may provide sample input detailed x information entry supplemental , x entry require exist x x cases , info files might renamed avoid name x conflicts info files renamed reason , x say remark section x x info files must uudecode current directory x absolutely must renamed , moved sub directory , say x remark section x x submitting multiple entries , sure entry x unique entry number 0 7 first entry x entry number 0 x x exception header , text outside entry x format may ignored , n't place text outside x entry expect judges see \( decoding tools n't x ai progs ! \) need tell something , put x remark section , send email judges x x ! apple , pyramid , sun , uunet ! hoptoad ! judges \( address x judges toad com submitting entries \) x x date given respect utc \( systems refer x gmt \) format date x returned asctime \( \) c locale example string x x thr apr 01 00 47 00 1993 x x format similar output date \( 1 \) command x string include name year many x systems , one following command produce similar string x x date u h 19 x date u sed e 's \( 19 0 9 0 9 \) 1 ' x sh c 'tz utc date sed e \( 19 0 9 0 9 \) 1 ' x sh c 'tz gmt date sed e \( 19 0 9 0 9 \) 1 ' x sh c 'tz date sed e \( 19 0 9 0 9 \) 1 ' x x allowed update fix revise entry , set x 'fix' line entry section 'y' instead 'n' x sure resubmittion uses title entry number x well , used determine entry x replaced x x process x x entries judged larry bassel landon curt noll x x entries unpacked individual directories email message x unpacked individual files , containing x x entry section x author sections x info sections x build section x program section x text , including email message headers x x prior judging , file scanned sure x contain useful information \( case entry x unpack correctly \) information x author sections read judging process x complete , entries award x x process helps keep us biased one particular x individual usually kept dark much x final awards given like surprise finding x end , x x attempt keep entries anonymous , unless win award x main winning announced , make x attempts send non winners oblivion remove non winning x files , shred related paper tradition , even x reveal number entries received \( curious , x indicate volume paper consumed presenting ioccc x winners talks \) x x usenix announcement , attempt send email x authors winning entries one reason give x authors chance comment way presented x entry given chance correct mistakes , typos x often accept suggestions comments remarks well x done prior posting winners wide world x x judging consists number elimination rounds round , x collection entries divided two roughly equal piles x pile advances next round , pile x also examine entries eliminated x previous round thus , entry gets least two readings x x reading consists number actions x x reading entry section x reading uudecoded build section x reading uudecoded program section x reading uudecoded info section \( \) , x passing source thru c pre processor x shipping include files x performing number c cleanup source x passing source thru c pre processor x shipping include files x x later rounds , actions performed x x source x compiling building source x running program x performing misc tests source binary x x reduce stack entries 25 entries , entries x judged individual basis entry set aside x , opinion , meet standard established round x number entries 25 entries , begin form x award categories entries begin compete awards x entry often compete several categories x x actual award category list vary depending types entries x receive typical category list might x x best small one line program x best small program x strangest creative source layout x useful obfuscated program x best game obfuscated x obfuscated program x deceptive c code x best x client \( see likes dislikes \) x best abuse ansi c x worst abuse rules x anything else strange deserves award x x limit list example , entries x good bad declared winners start final round x invent awards categories , necessary x x final round process , perform difficult tasks x reducing remaining entries \( typically 25 \) 8 10 x winners often confident entries make x final round definitely better ones x make selection winners final round , x less clear cut x x sometimes final round entry good enough win , beat x similar , slightly better entry reason , x sometimes worthwhile enter improved version entry x failed win previous year assumes , course , x entry worth improving first place ! x x often , select small entry \( usually one line \) , x strange creative layout entry , entry abuses contest x rules way x x end , traditionally pick one entry 'best' sometimes x entry simply far exceeds entry often , x 'best' picked well number categories x x winners x x first announcement , occurs summer usenix conference tradition , x done latter part uunet ioccc bof , prior x berkeley bsd , bof x x winning entries posted late june following groups x x comp lang c comp unix wizards alt sources x x addition , pointers postings posted following x x comp sources alt sources misc misc x comp sources misc comp windows x x x winning entries deposited uunet archives see x details x x often , winning entries published selected magazines winners x appeared books \( new hackers dictionary \) shirts x x last , least , winners receive international fame flames ! \) x x xfor information x x may contact judges sending email following address x x ! apple , pyramid , sun , uunet ! hoptoad ! judges \( address x judges toad com submitting entries \) x x questions comments contest welcome x x rules guidelines may \( often \) change year x year sure current rules guidelines x prior submitting entries obtain , send email address x use subject 'send rules' x x one may obtain winners previous contests \( 1984 date \) , via ftp x x host ftp uu net \( 192 48 96 9 \) x user anonymous x pass yourname yourhost x dir pub ioccc x x last resort , previous winners may obtained sending email x address please use subject 'send year , x year single 4 digit year , year range , 'all' x x landon curt noll cc chongo toad com bassel lab sun com shar eof chmod 0444 guidelines echo restore guidelines failed set `wc c wc c 1 test wc c ! echo original size , current size wc c fi echo end part 1 , continue part 2 exit 0 sunnyvale residents vote landon noll sunnyvale city council seat 1
chongo toad com \( landon c noll \) subject reposting 10th international obfuscated c code contest rules \( 2 2 \) expires 8 may 93 00 00 00 gmt reply chongo toad com \( landon c noll \) distribution world organization nebula consultants san francisco lines keywords ioccc received number requests reposting international obfuscated c code contest rules guidelines also people requested rules posted wider set groups sorry cross posting technical clarifications made rules guidelines \( see diff marks right hand edge \) rules guidelines year remain , people already process submitting entries 1993 ioccc need worry changes chongo landon curt noll cc chongo toad com larry bassel lab sun com ! bin sh part 02 archive mkentry c echo x extracting mkentry c \( text \) sed 's x ' 'shar eof' mkentry c x \( \) mkentry c 1 25 4 5 93 15 58 08 x x copyright \( c \) landon curt noll larry bassel , 1993 x rights reserved permission personal , education non profit use x granted provided copyright notice included x entirety remains unaltered uses must receive prior x permission writing landon curt noll larry bassel x x x mkentry make international obfuscated c code contest entry x x usage x mkentry r remarks b build p prog c ioccc entry x x r remarks file remarks entry x b build file containing prog c built x p prog c obfuscated program source file x ioccc entry ioccc entry output file x x compile x cc mkentry c mkentry x x x placed public domain landon curt noll , 1992 x x software provided ``as without express implied x warranties , including , without limitation , implied warranties x fitness particular purpose x x x warning x x program attempts implement ioccc rules every attempt x made make sure program produces entry x conforms contest rules cases , program x differs contest rules , contest rules used x sure check contest rules submitting entry x x information x x may contact judges sending email following address x x ! apple , pyramid , sun , uunet ! hoptoad ! judges \( address x judges toad com submitting entries \) x x questions comments contest welcome x x rules guidelines may \( often \) change year x year sure current rules guidelines x prior submitting entries obtain , send email address x use subject 'send rules' x x one may obtain winners previous contests \( 1984 date \) , via ftp x x host ftp uu net \( 192 48 96 9 \) x user anonymous x pass yourname yourhost x dir pub ioccc x x last resort , previous winners may obtained sending email x address please use subject 'send year , x year single 4 digit year , year range , 'all' x x contest rules change year year , one use x program year intended sure rule year x define matches current year x x x include stdio h x include ctype h x include time h x include sys types h x include sys stat h x x logic x ifndef true x define true 1 x endif true x ifndef false x define false 0 x endif false x define eof ok true x define eof ok false x x global limits x define rule year 1993 note match current year x define start date 0 00 utc first confirmation received x define max col 79 max column line hit x define max build size 256 max build size x define max program size 3217 max program source size x define max program size2 1536 max program source size counting x whitespace followed x whitespace eof x define max title len 12 max chars title x define max entry len 1 max length entry input line x define max entry 8 max number entries per person per year x define max file len 1024 max filename length info file x x send entries x define entry ! apple , pyramid , sun , uunet ! hoptoad ! obfuscate x define entry obfuscate toad com x x uuencode process assumes ascii x define uuencode \( c \) \( encode str \( int \) \( c \) 0xff \) x define uuencode len 45 max uuencode chunk size x define mode 0444 mode info file 's uuencode file x define uubuild mode 0444 mode build file 's uuencode file x define uubuild name build name build file 's uuencode file x define uuprog mode 0444 mode program 's uuencode file x define uuprog name prog c name program 's uuencode file x x encode str \( char \) val uuencoded character val encode str 256 1 ` ! ' \( \) , 0123456789 \? abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz ! ' \( \) , 0123456789 \? abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz ! ' \( \) , 0123456789 \? abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz ! ' \( \) , 0123456789 \? abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz x x global declarations program name start time startup time x x forward declarations xvoid parse args \( \) xvoid usage \( \) xfile open remark \( \) xfile open build \( \) xfile open program \( \) xfile open output \( \) xvoid output entry \( \) xvoid output remark \( \) xvoid output author \( \) xvoid output info \( \) xvoid output build \( \) xvoid output program \( \) xvoid output end \( \) xint get line \( \) xvoid output till dot \( \) xint col len \( \) xvoid check io \( \) xvoid uuencode \( \) x \( argc , argv \) x int argc arg count x char argv args x x file remark null open remarks stream x file build null open build file stream x file prog null open program stream x file output null open output stream x char rname null file remarks entry x char bname null file containing prog c built x char pname null obfuscated program source file x char oname null ioccc entry output file x struct tm tm startup time structure x x x check year x x start time time \( \( long \) 0 \) x tm \( start time \) x \( tm tm year ! rule year 1900 \) x fprintf \( stderr , x warning program applies , may differ n n , x argv 0 , rule year , 1900 tm tm year \) x x x x parse command line args x x parse args \( argc , argv , rname , bname , pname , oname \) x x x open check input output files x x open output file first , case x one input files x x output open output \( oname \) x remark open remark \( rname \) x build open build \( bname \) x prog open program \( pname \) x \( output null remark null build null prog null \) x exit \( 1 \) x x x x output section x x output entry \( output , oname \) x output remark \( output , oname , remark , rname \) x output author \( output , oname \) x output info \( output , oname \) x output build \( output , oname , build , bname \) x output program \( output , oname , prog , pname \) x output end \( output , oname \) x x x flush output x x \( fflush \( output \) eof \) x fprintf \( stderr , flush error , program , oname \) x perror \( \) x exit \( 2 \) x x x x final words x x printf \( entry found check file n , x oname \) x printf \( correct problems verify uudecode utility n \) x printf \( correctly decode build file program n n \) x printf \( program provided guide n \) x printf \( cases conflicts rules , rules shall apply n \) x printf \( responsibility ensure entry conforms n \) x printf \( current rules n n \) x printf \( email entries n \) x printf \( n , entry \) x printf \( n n , entry \) x printf \( please use following subject email entry n \) x printf \( entry n n \) x done x exit \( 0 \) x x x x parse args parse command line args x x given command line args , function sets x required name flags function return command x line syntax correct x xvoid args \( argc , argv , rname , bname , pname , oname \) x int argc arg count x char argv args x char rname file remarks entry x char bname file containing prog c built x char pname obfuscated program source file x char oname ioccc entry output file x x char optarg flag option operand x int flagname name flag x int x x x everyone , must parse args hand x x program argv 0 x \( 1 argc \) x x determine flagname x \( argv 0 ! ' ' \) x usage \( 1 \) x notreached x x flagname \( int \) argv 1 x x determine flag 's operand x \( flagname ! ' 0' argv 2 ! ' 0' \) x optarg argv 2 x else x \( 1 argc \) x usage \( 2 \) x notreached x else x optarg argv x x x x save flag 's operand correct global variable x switch \( flagname \) x case 'r' x rname optarg x break x case 'b' x bname optarg x break x case x pname optarg x break x case 'o' x oname optarg x break x default x usage \( 3 \) x notreached x x x x x verify required flags x x \( rname null bname null pname null oname null \) x usage \( 4 \) x notreached x x return x x x x usage print usage message exit x x function return x xvoid \( exitval \) x int exitval exit value x x fprintf \( stderr , x usage r remarks b build p prog c ioccc entry n n , program \) x fprintf \( stderr , r remarks remarks entry n \) x fprintf \( stderr , b build containing prog c built n \) x fprintf \( stderr , p prog c obfuscated program source file n \) x fprintf \( stderr , ioccc entry entry output file n \) x exit \( exitval \) x x x x open remark open check remark file x x remark file indented 4 spaces , extend x beyond column max col requirements , warn x x function returns null format error x xfile xopen remark \( filename \) x char filename x x file stream opened file stream x char buf bufsiz 1 input buffer x int toolong 0 number lines long x int non indent 0 number lines indented 4 spaces x x x open remark input file x x stream fopen \( filename , r \) x \( stream null \) x fprintf \( stderr , cannot open remark file , x program , filename \) x perror \( \) x return \( null \) x x x x look line x x \( fgets \( buf , bufsiz , stream \) ! null \) x x count lines start 4 spaces x \( buf 0 ! ' n' \( buf , , 4 \) ! 0 \) x non indent x x x count long lines x \( col len \( buf \) max col \) x found line long x toolong x x x x watch errors x check io \( stream , filename , eof ok \) x x note long lines needed x \( toolong 0 \) x fprintf \( stderr , x warning line \( \) extend beyond column n , x program , toolong , filename \) x fprintf \( stderr , x ok , would nice avoid n n , x program \) x x x note non indented lines , needed x \( non indent 0 \) x fprintf \( stderr , x warning line \( \) indented 4 spaces n , x program , non indent , filename \) x fprintf \( stderr , x ok , would nice avoid n n , x program \) x x x return open file x rewind \( stream \) x return \( stream \) x x x x open build open check build file x x build file must longer max build size bytes x x function returns null size error x xfile xopen build \( filename \) x char filename x x file stream opened file stream x struct stat statbuf status open file x x x open build input file x x stream fopen \( filename , r \) x \( stream null \) x fprintf \( stderr , cannot open build file , x program , filename \) x perror \( \) x return \( null \) x x x x determine size file x x \( \( \( stream \) , statbuf \) 0 \) x fprintf \( stderr , cannot stat build file , x program , filename \) x perror \( \) x return \( null \) x x \( statbuf st size max build size \) x fprintf \( stderr , x fatal build file , bytes long n , x program , filename , statbuf st size \) x fprintf \( stderr , x may longer bytes n , x program , max build size \) x return \( null \) x x x return open file x return \( stream \) x x x x open program open check program source file x x program source file must 3217 bytes number x non whitespace chars followed whitespace must x 1536 bytes x x function returns null size error x xfile xopen program \( filename \) x char filename x x file stream opened file stream x struct stat statbuf status open file x int count special count size x int c character read x x x open program source input file x x stream fopen \( filename , r \) x \( stream null \) x fprintf \( stderr , cannot open program source file , x program , filename \) x perror \( \) x exit \( 7 \) x x x x determine size file x x \( \( \( stream \) , statbuf \) 0 \) x fprintf \( stderr , cannot stat program source file , x program , filename \) x perror \( \) x return \( null \) x x \( statbuf st size max program size \) x fprintf \( stderr , x fatal program source file , bytes long n , x program , filename , statbuf st size \) x fprintf \( stderr , x may longer bytes n , x program , max program size \) x return \( null \) x x x x count non whitespace , non followed whitespace chars x x count 0 x c 0 x \( \( c fgetc \( stream \) \) ! eof \) x look non whitespace x \( ! isascii \( c \) ! \( c \) \) x switch \( c \) x case ' ' count followed eof whitespace x case ' ' x case ' ' x peek next char x c fgetc \( stream \) x \( c ! eof isascii \( c \) ! \( c \) \) x followed whitespace eof , count x \( c , stream \) x count x x break x default x count x break x x x x x watch errors x check io \( stream , filename , eof ok \) x x look special size x \( count max program size2 \) x fprintf \( stderr , x fatal number bytes non whitespace , n , x program \) x fprintf \( stderr , x ' ' , ' ' , ' ' followed whitespace n , x program \) x fprintf \( stderr , x eof must bytes n , x program , max program size2 \) x fprintf \( stderr , x , bytes found n , x program , filename , count \) x return \( null \) x x x return open file x rewind \( stream \) x return \( stream \) x x x x open output open check entry output file x x function returns null open error x xfile xopen output \( filename \) x char filename x x file stream opened file stream x x x open ioccc entry output file x x stream fopen \( filename , w \) x \( stream null \) x fprintf \( stderr , cannot open ioccc entry file output , x program , filename \) x perror \( \) x exit \( 8 \) x x x return open file x return \( stream \) x x x x output entry output entry section x x read needed information form stdin , write entry section x xvoid xoutput entry \( output , oname \) x file output entry 's output file stream x char oname name output file x x char title max title len 1 1 entry 's title x char buf max col 1 1 buffer x int entry 0 entry number x int ret fields processed x int ok line 0 0 line ok x char skip input skip x file date pipe pipe date command x time epoch sec seconds since epoch x char p x x x write start section x x fprintf \( output , entry n \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x x x write rule year x x fprintf \( output , rule n , rule year \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x x determine fix x printf \( fix , update resubmittion \) x printf \( previous entry \( enter n \) \? \) x \( get line \( buf , 1 1 , 0 \) 0 ! \( buf 0 'y' buf 0 'n' \) \) x printf \( nplease answer n \) x x \( buf 0 'y' \) x fprintf \( output , fix ty n \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x printf \( sure title entry number give n \) x printf \( entry replacing n \) x else x fprintf \( output , fix tn n \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x x x x write title x x printf \( title must match expression za z0 9 character n \) x printf \( followed 0 za z0 9 characters n n , x max title len 1 \) x printf \( suggested , required , title n \) x printf \( incorporate username n \) x printf \( case multiple authors , consider using parts n \) x printf \( authors n n \) x printf \( enter title \) x x prompt read line x \( \( ok line get line \( title , max title len 1 , max col 9 \) \) 0 \) x printf \( long , please enter \) x continue x x x verify pattern , everyone , hand x \( ! isascii \( \( int \) title 0 \) x ! \( \( \( int \) title 0 \) title 0 ' ' title 0 ' ' \) \) x printf \( first character title n n \) x printf \( enter title \) x ok line 0 x else x \( p \( title 1 \) p ! ' 0' p ! ' n' p \) x \( ! isascii \( \( int \) p \) x ! \( \( \( int \) p \) x p ' ' p ' ' p ' ' p ' ' \) \) x printf \( character title n n \) x printf \( enter title \) x ok line 0 x x x x \( ok line 0 \) x fprintf \( output , title , title \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x x x write entry number x x printf \( person may submit entries per year n n , x max entry \) x printf \( enter entry number 0 inclusive , max entry 1 \) x x get valid input line x fflush \( stdout \) x ret \( stdin , n , entry \) x check io \( stdin , stdin , eof ok \) x skip input newline found x x skip fgetc \( stdin \) x check io \( stdin , stdin , eof ok \) x \( skip ! ' n' \) x bad text input , invalidate entry number x entry 1 x x \( skip ! ' n' \) x x check number , range x \( ret ! 1 entry 0 entry max entry 1 \) x printf \( x entry number must 0 inclusive n n , x max entry 1 \) x printf \( enter entry number \) x x \( ret ! 1 entry 0 entry max entry 1 \) x fprintf \( output , entry n , entry \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x x x write submission date x x returns newline x epoch sec time \( null \) x fprintf \( output , date , asctime \( \( epoch sec \) \) \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x x x write os machine host information x x printf \( x nenter machine \( \) os \( \) entry tested n \) x output till dot \( output , oname , host \) x x x x output remark output remark section x x read needed information form stdin , write entry section x xvoid xoutput remark \( output , oname , remark , rname \) x file output entry 's output file stream x char oname name output file x file remark stream file containing remark text x char rname name remark file x x char buf bufsiz 1 input output buffer x x x write start section x x fprintf \( output , remark n \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x x x copy remark file section x x \( fgets \( buf , bufsiz , remark \) ! null \) x \( buf , output \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x x check io \( remark , rname , eof ok \) x x sure remark section ends newline x \( buf strlen \( buf \) 1 ! ' n' \) x fputc \( ' n' , output \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x x x x x output author output author section x x read needed information stdin , write author section x multiple authors exist , multiple author sections written x xvoid xoutput author \( output , oname \) x file output entry 's output file stream x char oname name output file x x char buf max col 1 1 buffer x int auths true authors note x int auth cnt 0 number authors processed x x x prompt user author section x x printf \( nenter information author entry n \) x printf \( contest deadline , judges n , start date \) x printf \( attempt email back confirmation first author n \) x x x place author information author individual section x x x x write start section x fprintf \( output , author n \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x x write author x printf \( name , auth cnt \) x \( get line \( buf , max col 1 , max col 9 \) 0 \) x printf \( long , please enter \) x x fprintf \( output , name , buf \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x x write organization x printf \( nenter school company organization author n , x auth cnt \) x printf \( org , auth cnt \) x \( get line \( buf , max col 1 , max col 9 \) 0 \) x printf \( long , please enter \) x x fprintf \( output , org , buf \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x x write address x printf \( x nenter postal address author sure include n , x auth cnt \) x printf \( country include name n \) x output till dot \( output , oname , addr \) x x write email address x printf \( x nenter email address author use address n , x auth cnt \) x printf \( x registered domain well known site give several n \) x printf \( forms , list one per line n \) x output till dot \( output , oname , email \) x x write anonymous status x printf \( author remain anonymous \( enter n \) \? , x auth cnt \) x \( get line \( buf , 1 1 , 0 \) 0 ! \( buf 0 'y' buf 0 'n' \) \) x printf \( nplease answer n \) x x fprintf \( output , anon , buf \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x x determine another author x printf \( nis another author \( enter n \) \? \) x \( get line \( buf , 1 1 , 0 \) 0 ! \( buf 0 'y' buf 0 'n' \) \) x printf \( nplease answer n \) x x \( buf 0 'y' \) x auths true x else x auths false x x \( auths true \) x return x x x x output info output info section \( \) x x read needed information stdin , write info section x multiple info files exist , multiple info sections written x xvoid xoutput info \( output , oname \) x file output entry 's output file stream x char oname name output file x x char infoname max file len 1 filename buffer x char yorn 1 1 n answer x char uuname name uuencode x file infile info file stream x x x prompt user info information x x printf \( files used supplement entry n \) x printf \( example , info files may provide sample input detailed n \) x printf \( information entry supplemental , n \) x printf \( entry require exist n n \) x x x another info file save , uuencode x x printf \( info file include \( enter n \) \? \) x \( get line \( yorn , 1 1 , 0 \) 0 ! \( yorn 0 'y' yorn 0 'n' \) \) x printf \( nplease answer n \) x x \( yorn 0 'y' \) x x read filename x printf \( nenter info filename \) x \( get line \( infoname , max file len 1 , 0 \) 0 \) x printf \( filename long , please enter \) x x x compute info filename x remove trailing newline x uuname infoname strlen \( infoname \) 1 x uuname ' 0' x avoid rindex compat issues , hand x \( uuname uuname infoname uuname \) x \( uuname ' ' \) x uuname x break x x x x attempt open info file x infile fopen \( infoname , r \) x \( infile null \) x fprintf \( stderr , n cannot open info file , x program , infoname \) x perror \( \) x continue x x x x write start section x x fprintf \( output , info n \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x x uuencode info file x uuencode \( output , oname , infile , infoname , mode , uuname \) x x printf \( another info file include \( enter n \) \? \) x \( get line \( yorn , 1 1 , 0 \) 0 ! \( yorn 0 'y' yorn 0 'n' \) \) x printf \( nplease answer n \) x x x return x x x x output build output build section x x read needed information stdin , write build section x xvoid xoutput build \( output , oname , build , bname \) x file output entry 's output file stream x char oname name output file x file build open build file stream x char bname name build file x x x write start section x x fprintf \( output , build n \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x x x uuencode program file x x uuencode \( output , oname , build , bname , uubuild mode , uubuild name \) x return x x x x output program output program section x x read needed information form stdin , write program section x xvoid xoutput program \( output , oname , prog , pname \) x file output entry 's output file stream x char oname name output file x file prog open program stream x char pname name program file x x x write start section x x fprintf \( output , program n \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x x x uuencode program file x x uuencode \( output , oname , prog , pname , uuprog mode , uuprog name \) x return x x x x output end output end section x x read needed information form stdin , write 'end x xvoid xoutput end \( output , oname \) x file output entry 's output file stream x char oname name output file x x x write final section terminator x x fprintf \( output , end n \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x return x x x x get line get answer stdin x x function flush stdout , case prompt pending , x read answer x x function returns 0 line long , length x line \( including newline \) line ok function x return error eof x xint line \( buf , siz , maxcol \) x char buf input buffer x int siz length input , including newline x int maxcol max col allowed , 0 disable check x x int length length input line x x flush terminal output x fflush \( stdout \) x x read line x \( fgets \( buf , siz 1 , stdin \) null \) x report problem x check io \( stdin , stdin , eof ok \) x x x look newline x length strlen \( buf \) x \( buf length 1 ! ' n' \) x int eatchar char eaten x x newline found , line must long , eat rest line x x eatchar fgetc \( stdin \) x \( eatchar ! eof eatchar ! ' n' \) x check io \( stdin , stdin , eof ok \) x x report situation x return 0 x x x watch long lines , needed x \( maxcol 0 \( length maxcol col len \( buf \) maxcol \) \) x report situation x return 0 x x x return length x return length x x x x output till dot output set lines ' ' read x x routine read set lines \( including \) x single line ' ' read format output x x leader line x line x line x x x routine return error eof x xvoid xoutput till dot \( output , oname , leader \) x file output entry 's output file stream x char oname name output file x char leader lead text first line x x char buf bufsiz 1 input buffer x int count lines read x int done false true finished reading input x x instruct user input x printf \( end input , enter line single period n \) x x read lines ' ' eof x count 0 x \( ! done \) x issue prompt x printf \( , \( count 0 \) \? leader \) x fflush \( stdout \) x x get line x \( get line \( buf , bufsiz , max col 9 \) 0 \) x printf \( long , please enter n \) x continue x x x note ' ' read x \( \( buf , n \) 0 \) x done true x x x write line read something x \( ! done \) x fprintf \( output , , \( count 0 \) \? leader , buf \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x x x x lines read , least output something x \( count 0 \) x fprintf \( output , n , leader \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x x return x x x x col len determine highest string would reach x x given string , routine returns string would reach x string printed column 1 tab stops assumed x start 9 , 17 , 25 , 33 , x xint len \( string \) x char string string examine x x int col current column x char p current char x x scan string x \( col 0 , p string p ! ' 0' p ! ' n' p \) x note column shift x col \( p ' t' \) \? 1 \( \( col 8 \) 8 8 \) col 1 x x \( p ' n' \) x col x x x return highest column x return col x x x x check io check eof error stream x x return eof error x xvoid io \( stream , name , eof ok \) x file stream stream check x char name name stream x int eof ok eof ok eof ok x x test error x \( \( stream \) \) x fprintf \( stderr , error , program , name \) x perror \( \) x exit \( 1 \) x x test eof x else \( eof ok eof ok \( stream \) \) x fprintf \( stderr , eof n , program , name \) x exit \( 1 \) x x return x x x x uuencode uuencode file x x perform process identical process performed x uuencode \( 1 \) utility x x routine implements algorithm described uuencode \( 5 \) x 4 reno man page x xvoid \( output , oname , infile , iname , umode , uname \) x file output output file stream x char oname output filename x file infile input file stream x char iname input filename x int umode mode put uuencode file x char uname name put uuencode file x x char buf uuencode len 1 uuencode buffer x int read len actual number chars read x int val 6 bit chunk buf x char filler ' 0' filler uuencode pad text x char p x x x output initial uuencode header x x fprintf \( output , begin n , umode , uname \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x x x clear input buffer x x \( p buf p buf sizeof \( buf \) sizeof \( buf 0 \) p \) x p ' 0' x x x x process uuencode len chars time , forming x single output line time x x \( \( read len \( buf , sizeof \( buf 0 \) , uuencode len , infile \) \) 0 \) x x x first character length character x x fputc \( uuencode \( read len \) , output \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x x x convert 24 bits time thus convert x 3 sets 8 bits 4 sets uuencoded 6 bits x x \( p buf read len 0 read len 3 , p 3 \) x x bits 0 5 x val \( p 0 2 \) x fputc \( uuencode \( val \) , output \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x x bits 6 11 x val \( \( p 0 4 \) \) \( \( p 1 4 \) \) x fputc \( uuencode \( val \) , output \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x x bits 12 17 x val \( \( p 1 2 \) \) \( \( p 2 6 \) \) x fputc \( uuencode \( val \) , output \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x x bits 18 23 x val p 2 x fputc \( uuencode \( val \) , output \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x x x end uuencode len line x fputc \( ' n' , output \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x x x clear input buffer \( n't depend \( \) memset \( \) \) x x \( p buf p buf sizeof \( buf \) sizeof \( buf 0 \) p \) x p ' 0' x x x x check last read input file x check io \( infile , iname , eof ok \) x x write end uuencode file x fprintf \( output , c n , uuencode \( filler \) \) x check io \( output , oname , eof ok \) x shar eof chmod 0444 mkentry c echo restore mkentry c failed set `wc c mkentry c` wc c 1 test wc c ! echo original size , current size wc c fi obfuscate info echo x extracting obfuscate info \( text \) sed 's x ' 'shar eof' obfuscate info obfuscated contest information x xcopyright \( c \) landon curt noll larry bassel , 1993 xall rights reserved permission personal , education non profit use xgranted provided copyright notice included entirety xand remains unaltered uses must receive prior permission writing xfrom landon curt noll larry bassel x xthe international obfuscated c code contest \( ioccc \) , operation , willing mention programming contents , space x contest included file x x wish ioccc judges include contest file , x send request x x judges toad com x x request contest descriptions limited 50 lines x exceed 2500 bytes typically request contest x include current description ioccc x x order included file given year , must x receive current description earlier jan 1 00 00 00 utc x later feb 15 00 00 00 utc agreement publish x contest must also obtained prior feb 15 annual contests x fail submit new entry dropped file x disclaimer \( pardon \) x x contents noted , ioccc , affiliated x ioccc , endorsed ioccc reserve x right refuse print information given contest x x information provided particular contest x organizer \( \) printed permission please contact x contest organizer \( \) directly regarding contents x official notice given , present enjoyment , following contents x x x x 10th international obfuscated c contest x x original obfuscated contest x x obfuscate tr v , , 1 render obscure x b darken 2 confuse emotions obfuscated x judgment , darken ob \( intensive \) x lat , darken , dark obfuscation n x adj x x goals contest x x write obscure obfuscated c program rules x show importance programming style , ironic way x stress c compilers unusual code x illustrate c language x provide safe forum poor c code \) x x ioccc grandfather usenet programming contests since x 1984 , contest demonstrated program simply works x correctly sufficient ioccc also done much add x arcane word back english language x \( see new hacker 's dictionary eric raymond \) x x strongly encouraged read new contest rules x sending entries rules , sometimes contest email x address , change time valid entry one year may x rejected later year due changes rules typical x start date contests early march contest rules normally x finalized posted beginning contest typical x closing date contests early may x x rules guidelines may \( often \) change year x year sure current rules guidelines x prior submitting entries obtain , send email address x use subject 'send rules' x x one may obtain winners previous contests \( 1984 date \) , via ftp x x host ftp uu net \( 192 48 96 9 \) x user anonymous x pass yourname yourhost x dir pub ioccc x x last resort , previous winners may obtained sending email x address please use subject 'send year , x year single 4 digit year , year range , 'all' x x x x international obfuscated perl contest x landon noll larry wall x x content planned someday landon larry x busy , actually get around posting first set rules ! x x landon says yes , know said would contest 1993 , x existing projects got way hopefully x something developed nov 1993 x x x x 2nd international obfuscated postscript contest x jonathan \( jgm cs brown edu \) x alena \( alena nikhef nl \) x x contest programming skills knowledge , exclusively x postscript programming language purpose x x spread knowledge postscript details x applaud best tricks x prove humans beat machine generators x game writing obscure mysterious postscript x programs ever x x winners receive fame attention goes x program entry posted winner programmers world wide x x 1993 contest rules results available ftp x cs brown edu pub postscript obfuscated , individually x obfuscated directory judges post 1994 rules x november comp lang postscript usenet , places x send questions jgm cs brown edu x x categories include best obfuscated postscript , best artwork , x compact , best interactive program , useful , x anything unusual creative deserves award x x judges choose winners category x x alena system administrator nikhef \( institute high x energy nuclear physics \) netherlands author x postscript chaos programs , draw julia sets , sets x kinds fractal functions x x jonathan graduate student mit brown university x u faq maintainer usenet newsgroup x comp lang postscript author postscript zone x x shar eof chmod 0444 obfuscate info echo restore obfuscate info failed set `wc c obfuscate wc c 1 test wc c ! echo original size , current size wc c fi exit 0 sunnyvale residents vote landon noll sunnyvale city council seat 1
brown ftms uucp \( vidiot \) subject problem xvertext package reply brown ftms uucp \( vidiot \) organization vidiot 's hangout lines 22 article 1993mar31 sierra com sierra com \( david karr \) writes might need future display rotated text noticed xvertext package net looks good , one slight problem api assumes font name , already loaded font n't difficult split function two interface routines , one font name , one , thought would ask author \( alan richardson \( mppa3 uk ac sussex syma \) \) first case planning already unfortunately , email address bounced alan r current maintainer xvertext see \? e mail address mentioned use u k know , brits everything backwards \) , real address states mppa3 syma sussex ac uk give try harvard ucbvax ! uwvax ! astroatc ! ftms ! brown uu2 psi com ! ftms ! brown rutgers internet brown wi extrel com ftms ! brown astroatc uucp cs wisc edu
bill kayser delft sgp slb com \( bill kayser \) subject gadgets vs widgets article organization internet lines 38 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu motif managers take simplistic approach way handle events gadgets track events \( motion notify \) wether gadget expresses interest events result , gadgets typically generate great deal network traffic x terminals might find noticable network performance drop result really \? 's point using gadgets \? case memory vs network performance tradeoff gadgets save client server memory memory easily expandable network performance , designing motif would least make possible avoid using gadgets present really n't choice motif forces use gadgets menus various places adrian nye o'reilly associates , inc 've using xmgraph widget 's floating around noticed performance significantly better using gadgets , perhaps even 100 faster heard old programming course gadgets longer benefit performance , 's well use widgets everywhere would 50 gadgets lot quicker 50 pushbuttons graph \? start putting gadgets back long pulldown menus \? xmgraph manages children connected widgets directed network type graph automatic layout capability bill schlumberger internet kayser delft sgp slb com
casper fwi uva nl \( casper h dik \) subject trouble compiling x11r5 sunos 4 1 3 nntp posting host adam fwi uva nl organization fwi , university amsterdam lines 29 epstein trwacs fp trw com \( jeremy epstein \) writes dmm head cfa harvard edu \( david \) writes description compiling problems deleted gcc fpcc struct return bmtoa bmtoa o2 loops l lib xmu lxmu l lib xt l extensions lib l lib x l afs cfa syste 413 usr head lib x11 x11r5 ld undefined symbol xinternatom etc 's bug sunos 4 1 3 , alluded faq \( although 's talking x11r4 affected \) need force libxmu linked statically , rather dynamically , works around linker error simplest thing edit makefiles 's failure change line reads xmulib l \( xmusrc \) lxmu xmulib l \( xmusrc \) bstatic lxmu bdynamic relevant openwindows 3 x shipped sunos relevant mit r5 mit r5 compile without problems casper
etxmesa eos ericsson se \( michael salmon \) subject help building x11r5 gcc keywords x11r5 , gcc nntp posting host eos6c02 ericsson se reply etxmesa eos ericsson se \( michael salmon \) organization ericsson telecom ab lines 23 article 1993apr6 se citri edu au tim kimba catt citri edu au \( tim liddelow \) writes people please send hints building x11r5 gcc 2 3 3 \? pitfalls avoided \? hints \? would appreciate hearing peoples' stories building x11 gcc since 2 1 time trouble position independant code option broke \( could n't use gcc build sun shared libraries \) important thing follow tips given gcc release gcc generates code requires take account deciding compiler use libraries michael salmon include standard disclaimer include witty saying include fancy pseudo graphics ericsson telecom ab stockholm
cheong solomon technet sg \( scstech admin \) subject getting pseudo tty x motif nntp posting host solomon technet sg organization technet , singapore lines 16 hi , write application x motif require embedding pseudo tty , invent wheel , anyone written gotten motif widget job \? otherwise , would appreciate pointers make beast environment x11r4 motif 1 1 x11r5 motif 1 2 \( helps \) thanks advance arthur lim email arthur mailhost scs com sg
wilson analog com \( willie wilson \) subject experiences desqview x \? reply willie wilson analog com organization analog devices b v , limerick , ireland lines 19 need pcs sparcstations run application \( namely microsoft project \) original system ran pc needs expanded allow unix users work application current proposal use desqview x display server application would like know experiences using desqview x run application pc displaying sparcstation 've heard network traffic slow replies e mail please thanks , advance , , willie \( \) ' \( \) willie wilson analog com
bill kayser delft sgp slb com \( bill kayser \) subject teleuse , uim x , c article organization internet lines 25 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu cc bill kayser delft sgp slb com anyone good ideas integrate c code elegantly teleuse , uim x interface architect generated code \? source would great , suggestions welcome 's understanding next release uim x , due last february \) full support c use interpreter ui meta languages tools fully support c code generation , reusable templates via c classes generated , variety handy features using c layout functions different ways , generates motif 1 2 code \( including drag 'n drop , internationalization , etc \) fits quite nicely doug young 's paradigm c motif available us vi corp , europe imperial software , london \( see faq details \) bill schlumberger kayser delft sgp slb com
ware oboe cis ohio state edu \( peter ware \) subject private colormaps widget creation organization ohio state computer science lines 13 nntp posting host oboe cis ohio state edu reply nancie neko css gov 's message 2 apr 1993 14 55 09 0500 right supposing problem \( truly literate beings \) set want start application new colormap chicken egg sort problem , however look xt faq example show done , let know maybe improve example pete pete ware ware cis ohio state edu cis dept , ohio state university w \( 614 \) 292 228 hall , neil ave h \( 614 \) 538 columbus , oh 43210
wilk informatik tu muenchen de \( christian wilk \) subject xtshellstrings , xtstrings \? originator wilk kiss informatik tu muenchen de organization technische universitaet muenchen , germany lines 19 hello , somebody know functions xtshellstrings xtstrings \? n't found xm , xt , x11 , need install tool hints greatly appreciated ! please reply via e mail thanks advance ! christian wilk 've seen things people would n't believe technical university munich attack ships fire shoulder orion munich , germany watched c beams dark near gate moments lost wilk informatik tu muenchen de time like tears rain time die roy batty
etxmesa eos ericsson se \( michael salmon \) subject xtshellstrings , xtstrings \? nntp posting host eos6c02 ericsson se reply etxmesa eos ericsson se \( michael salmon \) organization ericsson telecom ab lines 28 article 1993apr5 informatik tu muenchen de wilk informatik tu muenchen de \( christian wilk \) writes hello , somebody know functions xtshellstrings xtstrings \? n't found xm , xt , x11 , need install tool hints greatly appreciated ! please reply via e mail n't functions , character arrays standard strings either defined string constants character pointers xtshellstrings xtstrings determined libraries compiled defined application undefined simply recompile one probably worth adding cflags michael salmon include standard disclaimer include witty saying include fancy pseudo graphics ericsson telecom ab stockholm
jet uk \( dr richard b wilkinson \) subject organization joint european torus lines 8 program produces continuous tone calling repeatedly interval equal duration bell run display , tones buffered x server tone occurrences program exited convenient way preventing , e g , x server bell buffer program exits \? disclaimer please note personal view construed official comment jet project
spider co uk \( michael robb \) subject honors degrees mean anything \? organization spider systems limited , edinburgh , uk lines 44 article burns cogsci ed ac uk cogsci ed ac uk \( kevin davidson \) writes opinion , programming degree still worth yes , cs degree programming degree anybody know computing course programming taught \? computer science branch maths \( course \) 've also done software engineering course much practical likely sort thing employer really wants , rather think want , also teach programming ability program entry requirement robert gordon university , programming main \( time consuming \) start course first two years consisted five subjects software engineering \( pascal c unix \) , computer engineering \( 6502 68000 assembler \) , computer theory \( lisp prolog \) , mathematics statistics communication skills \( pass interviews intelligence tests group discussions e g survive helicopter crash north sea \) third year \( industrial placement \) spent working computer company year company could anywhere europe \( special travel scheme cover visiting costs professors \) fourth year included operating systems \( c modula 2 \) , software engineering \( c 8086 assembler \) , real time laboratory \( c 68000 assembler \) computing theory \( lisp \) also group projects 2nd 4th years , students worked teams select project decide work outside company \( disadvantage specifications would change suddenly \) first four years , 50 50 weighting exams subjects however honours year , reduced 30 70 split individual project final exams \( assessment \) computer science courses like \? btw started 22 students first year left 8 honours year also , every course separately easy trying sleep 8 student class \) cheers , michael michael robb tel 44 31 554 problem bolt software engineer fax 44 31 554 software making sure spider systems limited e mail bolts right size edinburgh , spider co uk anonymous
dbl visual com \( david b lewis \) subject comp windows x frequently asked questions \( faq \) 4 5 summary useful information x window system article visual expires sun , 2 may 1993 00 00 00 gmt reply faq craft uunet uu net \( x faq maintenance address \) organization visual , inc lines 968 archive name x faq last modified 1993 04 04 subject 80 \) ! get x based plotting program \? usually available uucp sites uunet sites marked please consult archie server find recent versions gnuplot x \( \) , postscript bunch drivers export lcs mit edu elsewhere contrib 1 tar z gl plot x output \? comp sources unix graph cs rmit oz au pub graph tar z 131 170 24 42 comp sources unix , 2d 3d x , ps scam berkeley edu src local tar z 128 32 138 1 scam berkeley edu src local contour tar z 128 32 138 1 scam berkeley edu src local tar z 128 32 138 1 uunet ftp contrib tar z xgraph plot , zoom outputs ps hpgl berkeley edu pub xgraph 11 tar z 128 32 132 54 ruf uni freiburg de x11 contrib xgraph 11 tar z 132 230 1 1 jvnc net pub xgraph 11 tar z 128 121 50 7 comp sources x many sites ace gr \( formerly xvgr xmgr \) xy plotting tools ftp ccalmr ogi edu 129 95 72 34 xview version ccalmr pub acegr xvgr 2 09 tar z motif version ccalmr pub acegr xmgr 2 09 tar z mirrored export contrib acegr xgobi interactive dynamic scatter plotting tool bellcore lib stat cmu edu general xgobi log statlib email password send email statlib lib stat cmu edu containing one line message send xgobi general information , dfs bellcore com robot scientific xview based graph plotting data analysis tool ftp astro psu edu pub astrod 46 tar z 128 118 147 28 multi purpose 2d 3d plotter berkeley edu pub 3 1 tar z 2 91 thanks part ox com \( ed \) geoff com \( geoffrey leach \) paul \( spacsun rice edu \) black css gov \( mike black \) subject 81 \) get x based spreadsheet \? version sc x supports lotus files available cs uwm edu 0 tar z also includes graphing functions information soft eng cs uwm edu gnu package available prep ai mit edu pub gnu 1 2 2 tar z generate postscript spreadsheets also several part integrated office productivity tools may also include word processing , email , conferencing , image processing , drawing painting , among features vendor product contact information access technology 20 20 508 655 informix 800 331 quality software products q calc 800 628 \( ca 213 410 \) q calc 201 985 8000 214 717 , 800 356 8063 digital 1 800 digital applix aster x 508 870 0300 , 1 800 ais 919 942 , info ais com bbn software products bbn slate 617 873 5000 slate offer bbn com software systems 613 228 sas sas institute spreadsheet module x version available current popular risc platforms subject 82 \) get x based project management software \? vendor product contact information productivity solutions ultra planner 617 237 1600 quality software products version , 310 410 sales com digital tools , inc 408 366 , 800 755 nasa compass 404 542 , service cossack cosmic uga edu gec marconi software systems plus 703 648 gec marconi software systems size plus 703 648 , inc vue 408 985 cascade 703 506 advanced management solutions schedule publisher 800 397 auburn university \? \? \? \? thanks pete phillips \( pete qc co uk \) 7 92 thanks atul chhabra \( atul nynexst com \) 10 92 subject 83 \) get x based postscript previewer \? ghostscript distributed free software foundation \( 617 876 3296 \) includes postscript interpreter library graphics primitives version 2 5 2 available major site prep ai mit edu 11 92 \( computing laboratory university kent canterbury \) x user interface \( wcl based \) ghostscript 2 4 1 interpreter 5 92 source available anonymous ftp export lcs mit edu 2 0 tar z ghostview \( tim , tim cs wisc edu \) full function user interface ghostscript check ftp cs wisc edu prep ai mit edu pub ghostview 1 4 1 tar z 1 93 also several executables available ftp cs wisc edu pub x ghostview exe various architectures also harlequin 's software package previewing printing postscript \( r \) descriptions text graphics images previewers x available information call 44 223 send email request co uk image network 's supports full postscript language renders color , grayscale , monochrome fonts displayed anti aliased info image network , 1 415 967 digital 's runs uws 2 1 2 2 sun 's pageview runs x11 news server subject 84 \) get x based gks package \? latest freely available xgks obtained xgks request unidata ucar edu 2c implementation derived x11r4 contrib xgks ibm university illinois release unidata ucar edu 128 117 140 3 pub xgks tar z 12 90 addition , grafpak gks available advanced technology center \( 714 583 \) available gks ulowell edu \( ulowell cs department \) 2b implementation includes drivers variety devices passed x window id use package includes c fortran bindings 11 90 mitre org stew hanauma stanford edu produced neil bowers \( leeds dcs dcs leeds ac uk \) latest 10 91 conforms new version xgks \( 2 4 \) available export contrib xgks widget tar z subject 85 \) get x based pex package \? first official release pex x11r5 fix 22 brings sample implementation server version 5 1 final pex 5 1 protocol specification available via anonymous ftp export lcs mit edu \( 18 24 0 12 \) , directory pub docs pex changes made public review draft listed file 5 1p changes directory 9 92 final pexlib 5 1 document export pub docs pexlib 11 92 available university illinois implementation pex 4 0 specification called contains near complete implementation phigs phigs plus file pub tar z cs uiuc edu \( 128 174 252 1 \) porting platform rt running 4 3 questions comments go cs uiuc edu addition , pext toolkit rich thomson \( rthomson dsd es com \) available export pext tar z includes pex widget making easier include pex xt based programs subject 86 \) get x based tex dvi previewer \? previewer tex files available number archive sites , including uunet current version usually ftp cs colorado edu \( 128 138 204 31 \) 2 18 5 tar z pre converted fonts also machine distribution includes converts pk , gf , fonts bdf format , compiled use local x server xdvi dvi previewer fairly comprehensive easy use also available number sites , including uunet export lcs mit edu current version patchlevel 16 12 92 subject 87 \) get x based troff previewer \? x11r4 two previewers device independent troff supported client , contributed well maintained earlier version also appeared r3 contributed source also r5 distribution addition , xman client used preview troff documents use man macros \( e man pages \) psroff used output viewed postscript previewer addition , x previewer contributed marvin solomon \( solomon cs wisc edu \) version 3 5 available export contrib 8 90 elan computer group \( ca 415 964 2200 \) produces , modified troff implementation , elan express , x11 previewer softquad \( 416 963 usa 800 387 , mail sq uu net mail sq com \) offers softquad publishing software , including substantially rewritten troff , better intermediate language backwards compatibility , x11 r3 , r4 previewer \( package adopted 's mis department , used sold many parts \) information ian darwin , softquad \( ian sq com \) 3 90 image network \( 1 800 ca 415 967 \) offers package , includes fine modified troff implementation set x11 based page previewers \( package several hardware vendors \) mostly courtesy cs toronto edu \( mark \) 2 90 subject 88 \) ! get wysiwyg interface builder \? new release dirt interface builder richard hesketh works x11r5 includes support motif widget set readme builder allows interactive creation rapid prototyping x user interfaces using x toolkit number widget sets dirt generates wc widget creation resource files distribution also includes widget creation library \( version 1 06 , exception demos mri ari source code \) kind permission author david e smyth check dirt readme , dirt a2 0 tar z , dirt ps z export lcs mit edu interviews 3 0 1 c toolkit contains interface builder called generates code interviews application complete imakefile x resource file documentation pub papers ps interviews stanford edu \( 36 22 0 175 \) quest windows 's \( 408 496 1900 \) c package includes interactive building tool \( rapid user interface development \) runs sparc machines using osf motif 1 0 intended eventually full uims apparently support creating presentation components , generates c uil code info singh g , kok ch , ty , system rapid user interface development proc acm siggraph user interface software technology \( \) acm , ny , 1990 , pp 167 177 interface builder implemented tcl also addition , commercial products \( \) available final form following product name indicates product known allow designer specify widget whether particular resource hard coded written application defaults file , least one form output much user interface tools full user interface management systems information date product name look feel code output vendor hp interface motif 1 1 c \( xm \) hp visual edge architect uimx open look express open look c \( xol helper lib \) visual edge uimx 2 0 motif 1 1 c \( xm helper code \) visual edge 514 332 distributors 2 0 motif 1 1 c uil r w dec \( 1 800 digital \) x designer 1 1 motif 1 1 c \( xm \) c uil imperial software technology , ltd \( 44 734 \) sales ist co uk \( \) motif 1 0 c c script \( c like procedural language \) c uil nsl \( 33 1 43 36 77 50 \) requests nsl fr builder 2 0 motif 1 1 c \( xm \) c uil r w ics ada \( 617 621 0060 \) info ics com 1 1 motif 1 0 c \( xm \) c uil nixdorf \( 617 864 \) nixdorf com motif 1 1 c \( xm \) c uil software karl uucp 089 69 teleuse 2 1 motif 1 1 5 c \( xm \) c uil r w telesoft \( 619 457 2700 \) gui info telesoft com 3 2 motif 1 1 c \( xm helper lib \) c uil ada sunrise \( 401 847 \) info sunrise com motif c xm 33 1 openwindows developers open look gil c xview sun guide 3 0 gil c xview gil c olit gil c postscript tnt motif c \( xm \) expert object plus open look xview 708 676 5555 tae xw motif c \( xw , xm \) c tcl \( tae control language , like uil needs helper library \) vax fortran ada c nasa goddard \( 301 \) 286 mob , motif openlook c xm , uil c xol 408 982 pm , msw 3 0 , c uil motif 1 1 2 , mac pty ltd 61 3 629 fax 629 1296 \( australia \) motif 1 0 1 1 2 c \( xm \) aka edv 49 \( 0 \) 234 0 49 \( 0 \) 234 40 fax uib open look motif c \( oi \) parcplace 1 303 678 look magazine reviews complete comparisons meta file formats , documentation , real ease use , etc unix world unix review often carry articles addition , neuron data \( 1 415 321 \) makes open interface , window system independent object toolkit supports interfaces resemble \( \) mac , windows , motif open look package includes interface builder addition , builder supports development ada x applications using set objects planned motif look written ada generates ada specs stub bodies \( 1 800 1 \) addition , non wysiwyg related products may help goals rapid prototyping application interface wcl widget creation library basically describes widget hierarchy actions resources file available fine archive servers everywhere , including devvax jpl nasa gov \( 128 149 1 143 \) pub wcl provides thin layer xt without internal tweaking version 2 5 current 3 93 based motif toolkit allows programming copy r4 tape outdated get copy export email source hplabs hp com serpent uims permits building user interfaces without specific knowledge coding understanding attributes set particular motif widget beta release 1 2 available ftp sei cmu edu \( 128 237 1 13 \) found pub serpent serpent also available export lcs mit edu \( 18 24 0 11 \) contrib serpent email questions go serpent sei cmu edu commercial version serpent available agora , 221 drive , pittsburgh , pa garnet common lisp based gui toolkit information available garnet cs cmu edu metacard hypertext rapid application development environment similar apple claris corporation 's hypercard \( info metacard com \) metacard available via anonymous ftp ftp metacard com , csn org , 128 138 213 21 subject 89 \) find x tools callable shell scripts \? want shell script pop menus yes dialog boxes user running x several tools r3 contrib area developed satisfy needs yorn pops yes box , displays string , etc several versions tools , , made r4 contrib area , though may still available various archive sites addition , richard hesketh \( rlh2 ukc ac uk \) posted package comp sources x \( \) 1 n choices 7 90 two versions posted comp sources x , latter unauthorized rewrite r \( reef cis ufl edu \) , 1 91 version available comp sources x worked likely released xp 1 1 tar z , 1 0 tar z 1 0 tar z export 's contrib tools gerry tomlinson newcastle ac uk act x versions simple display choice making tools k p 4 92 lets user build panel containing interactive objects buttons , sliders , text fields , etc , either command line using simple scripting language available anonymous ftp hanauma stanford edu \( 36 51 0 16 \) pub x tar z may also found alt sources archives subject 90 \) get x based debugger \? xdbx , x interface debugger , available via ftp export current 1 91 version 2 1 patchlevel 2 x interface gdb called like xdbx 2 1 2 part comp sources x volume 11 2 91 1 06 tar z export motif interface gdb jim tsillas \( bubba ma30 bull com \) version 1 1 5 released 1 93 ups source level debugger runs x11 sunview window systems sun dec platforms available export \( 18 24 0 11 \) contrib ups 2 45 tar z \( also ups 2 45 2 45 2 patch z \) unix hensa ac uk \( 129 12 21 7 \) pub misc unix ups \( try mail archive unix hensa ac uk \) 10 92 unofficial fixes rod armstrong \( rod sj ate slb com \) unix hensa ac uk misc unix ups contrib rod sj ate slb com also mips produces highly customizable \( wcl based \) visual debugger able use sun 's x11 news server \( 617 498 3000 \) source level debugger , available major platforms , includes x based interface offers examine graphical interface , x11 interface c sun3 sun4 sdb sdb 386 3b2 platforms call 1 508 960 1997 contact examine att com information solbourne \( 1 303 678 \) offers pdb , x based debugger c , c fortran pdb uses oi toolkit runs either open look motif mode sco \( info sco com \) offers part several development systems lucid 's programming system , tightly integrated development environment c c programs , incorporates graphical user interface top extended version gdb info lucid info lucid com , \( 800 \) 223 subject 91 \) ! tee x program identically several displays \? several protocol multiplexer tools provide simultaneous display x clients number machines \( x protocol \) available cs brown edu \( 128 148 33 66 \) pub tar z works independently server affect application shared developed use electronic classroom conference program used duplicate several displays release 1 available x11r5 contrib tapes recent version ftp cs odu edu pub r2 tar z shx michael digital equipment gmbh cec karlsruhe also \( see see \) package context computer based learning training tool provide online help remote also useful general window sharing information shx nestvx enet dec com shx found export gatekeeper dec com pub x11 contrib shx tar z , crl dec com pub x11 contrib shx tar z modifications shx color mapping private color allocation mark j \( cs ucl ac uk \) cs ucl ac uk car shx car tar z xtrap implemented server library extension used record replay x session available gatekeeper dec com pub x11 contrib xtrap tar z export lcs mit edu contrib xtrap tar z wscrawl used multi person paint program 's available sax stanford edu wscrawl shar z implements simple shared , without chalk passing mechanism 's available xerox com pub tar z 1 0 \( 3 93 \) distributed interactive graphical editor particularly designed sources posted alt sources available ftp igd fhg de \( 192 44 32 1 \) ftp incoming nestor project described upgrading window system functions , michael et al , proceedings exug conference 11 90 also use hewlett packard co commercial product , hp works hp ux currently 300 , 400 , 700 series workstations hp 700 rx x stations machines receiving shared windows x server hp consists server extensions motif based user interface process contact local hp sales rep information ibm offers commercial product sun offers multi user software called \( , pa , usa \) offers multi user software called communique thanks part scott spectra com \( tim scott \) , 5 91 , peter \( peter lulea se \) , 8 92 subject 92 \) topic building x distribution topic needs updating r5 subject 93 \) 's good source information configuring x build \? faq includes information number bite particular system however , best source general information building x11 release found release notes file bundled separately rest release , 's become separated sources ftp another copy separately file ms , ps , txt top distribution file also available xstuff mail server addition , o'reilly associates 's volume 8 x administration includes information configuring building x subject 94 \) n't sun cg6 work r5 \? apparently gcc problem seems produce fine code sun displays except new distributed fix 07 may fix problem \( note known work solaris \) subject 95 \) n't sun sunos 4 1 know , etc \? get errors undefined , link add ldl eventually site def may want surround bstatic ldl bdynamic add extra libraries variable , since get added extra libraries eventual compilation command otherwise may shared \( compile shared \) thanks joe \( joe east sun com \) , 12 91 subject 96 \) strange problem building x clients sunos 4 1 2 \? sunos 4 1 2 sun fixed shared library bug ld conflicts way x11r4 builds shared xmu library , causing symbols undefined building x11 clients get wmshellwidgetclass get applicationshellwidgetclass compiling bstatic lxmu bdynamic appears work solve problem using openwindows 3 0 \( x11r4 based xt \) , please contact local sun office request following patches patch description 02 4 1 x openwindows 3 0 libxt jumbo patch 03 4 1 x openwindows 3 0 undefined symbols using shared libxmu greg earle , earle sun com 7 92 source patch use mit x11r4 libraries developed conrad kimball \( cek sdc boeing com \) r4 fixes made r5 get around problem patch export 1 93 contrib x11r4 sunos4 1 2 patch version3 z subject 97 \) ca n't gcc compile x11r4 sparc \? used gcc compile whole distribution , get several segmentation faults running x note first gcc risc machines necessarily result performance increase certainly noticeable 680x0 vax platforms problem gcc cc use incompatible methods passing structures arguments returning function values , gcc compiled parts x linked sun supplied functions pass return , run time errors occur affected programs include rgb server gcc manual sparc , gnu cc uses incompatible calling convention structures passes including contents argument list , whereas standard compiler passes effectively reference really ought fixed , calling conventions yet supported gnu cc , n't straightforward fix convention structure returning also incompatible , ` fpcc struct help duck problem either using cc throughout using routines cause incompatibilities problem cannot solved compilation flags files need compiled using cc include server os 4 c rgb rgb c addition , several inet functions use args return values clients xhost xhost c clients xauth c calls inet addr lib clx socket c lib x c possibly harmless n't involve collected scripps edu \( \) 8 90 subject 98 \) errors running x built gcc \? try run xinit xsun server get error getting interface configuration operation supported socket fatal server bug ! screens found running gcc script apparently n't work simple test include sys ioctl h run cc e gcc e last line output piece interest identical \( modulo irrelevant differences like whitespace \) gcc version 'x' cc version , run n't work reason go back gcc sources run rebuild x distribution identical , try running make clean mit server rebuilding , make sure everything gets compiled proper include files courtesy der mouse , mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu 9 90 subject 99 \) problems compiling x11r4 older sun3 \? mit server ddx sun c , found missing defines cg3ac monolen , monolen , cg3ac , \? r4 errata list distributed x11r4 mentions add lines file older sunos versions \( e g 3 5 \) compile define cg3ac monolen \( 128 1024 \) define cg3ac cg3ac monolen define monolen cg3ac monolen define cg3ac monolen however , sun3 actually ever cg3 device , references removed mit server ddx sun c imakefile 11 90 subject 100 \) problems compiling x server sunos 4 1 1 \? file h n't found sun omitted h sunos 4 1 1 remove include c replace line define cg6 color file changed earlier versions sunos copied another distribution subject 101 \) problems using r4 shared libraries sunos 4 \? executables try run following results ld libxmu 4 found even ld call undefined procedure building shared libraries sun , remember need run root installing shared libraries \( 've installed x file server , run server 's clients , \) building installing distribution , need careful avoid linking existing x shared libraries might \( e g distributed openwindows \) make sure ld library path set environment build installation going keep xterm xload setuid programs , please note shared libraries must installed usr lib , usr local lib , usr programs work \( else programs must linked statically \) courtesy mit x consortium note also program mkfontdir run part build attempts , however , use shared libraries installed avoid errors building mkfontdir statically \( pass bstatic c compilers \) subject 102 \) olit programs run r5 xt \? \( undefined \) bug olit external symbol existed x11r4 \( upon ow 3 0 's libxt based \) n't documented removed x11r5 \( mit 's guarantee upward compatibility r4 r5 libraries applied documented interface \) workaround temporarily set ld library path point x11r4 openwindows xt library linked program 10 92 barry margolin \( barmar think com \) 3 93 jeff francis \( heliocentric com \) subject 103 \) get around sunos 4 1 security hole \? security problem certain r4 clients \( xterm xload \) running sunos 4 1 installed setuid root using shared libraries avoid problem , one 1 \) make program non setuid consult system administrator concerning protection resources \( e g dev \) used programs , make sure create additional security problems site 2 \) programs statically \( using bstatic \) 3 \) install libraries linking link absolute paths libraries rws expo lcs mit edu \( bob scheifler \) , 12 90 r5 version xterm automatically rebuilding xterm newly installed libraries xterm installed prevents program built libraries specified relatively note may cause inconvenience installation nfs mounted disks xload rewritten avoid problem subject 104 \) get around frame buffer security hole \? many systems frame buffer default permits anyone log workstation peek windowing session accessing frame buffer directly , , less privacy issue perhaps annoying , accidentally start second x session console display check man page \( 5 \) thanks art mulder \( art cs ualberta ca \) 2 93 subject 105 \) topic building x programs subject 106 \) imake \? imake replacement make program instead , makefile generator takes advantages include file macro processing capabilities c preprocessor cpp generate makefiles suitable building software particular system although specific x , x release uses help solve number configuration issues arise making large system widely portable imake fairly steep learning curve , part process system specific configuration files , system independent configuration files , individual imakefiles produce makefile obvious several different versions imake r3 , r4 , r5 versions different obtain information imake sources r4 r5 release notes imake man page include information using imake build x r4 r5 file mit config readme also contains useful information r4 tapes , contrib doc imake imake tex mark r3 r4 guide imake r5 mit doc config paper ms contains paper jim fulton early version imake paul \( primate wisc edu \) written useful explanation imake works use configuring x non supported systems document available ftp primate wisc edu directory ftp pub imake stuff look config x11r4 ms \( troff \) config x11r4 ps \( postscript \) supplemental appendices nearby 7 91 document version 1 06 imake papers available email mail message body send imake stuff help almanac primate wisc edu see system administration imake friend foe \? november 1991 issue german readers expect june 1992 article das meta make make , make rainer klute ix multiuser multitasking , directed application programmers needing write imakefiles english language derivative article x journal , issue 2 1 o'reilly x resource issue 2 contains paul 's article imake alain 's working document full tips imake epfl ch pub imakefile 1 z 1 91 12 91 5 92 8 92 subject 107 \) get imake \? versions distributed r4 r5 releases earlier version distributed x11r3 release third party toolkits redistribute versions imake along implementations template configuration files real standards configuration files , although current contributed software expects templates distributed x11r5 export contains r5 distribution unpacked , pick imake without picking entire distribution stand alone version imake , one stemming x11r5 , ftp germany eu net pub x11 misc imake imake pure tar z \( 192 76 144 75 \) subject 108 \) program imakefile makefile \? r4 r5 installed system , run xmkmf script runs imake correct arguments output makefile configured system based imakefile run make , use new makefile compile program subject 109 \) ca n't link xlib shape routines \? try compile certain programs , get following link error undefined routines actually part shape extension x \( shape \) introduced mit x11r4 distribution allows non rectangular windows like sample server extensions , shape extension run server supports pre x11r4 servers , well many vendor supplied servers , support shape extension , case display rectangular windows anyway order use shape extension , must link library libxext x11r4 distribution , library associated includes mit extensions directory files , despair many freeware programs use shape extension also compiled without removing define makefile probably compile successfully older vendor supplied x libraries john b , yk fujitsu co jp uunet uu net , 3 91 subject 110 \) problems xtinherit found sun \? run x program wrote sunos 4 0 3 4 1 machine get error ld symbol found xtinherit seeing side effect kludge r4 libxt get sun shared libraries working apparently , ca n't share function called compared , xtinherit handled putting xtinherit file function always used , thereby guaranteeing would loaded , initialize c , \( \) xtinitialize \( \) reside routines would normally called probably seeing error program normal xt based program call \( \) anywhere 1 \) may program uses xt functions never opens connection x server osf motif 's 1 1 0 uil problem called xtmalloc \( \) xt functions solution add call program function executed , linked 2 \) alternatively , program n't need xt functions correct calling \( \) may xlib xview program case , remove lxt link command necessary link shared libraries statically , although certainly solve problem jordan hayes \( jordan com \) danny backx \( db sunbim \) 11 90 subject 111 \) ca n't compile r3 xaw contrib programs new x \? program worked well x11r3 try link current version x , get message undefined several name changes athena widget set \( addition header files moving x11 xaw \) mentioned r4 release notes case , functions really xt functions part xaw text widget renamed xt xaw 10 90 subject 112 \) topic programming problems puzzles subject 113 \) n't program get keystrokes select \( sic \) \? window manager controls input focus transferred one window another order get keystrokes , program must ask window manager input focus , must set called hints window manager applications xlib based , use something like following flags input true \( dpy , window , \) application based xt intrinsics , set resource true \( probably want case \) n't source , start application resource ' input certain window managers , notably dxwm olwm , picky done using sun 's openwindows olwm , also add resource defaults file use clients n't icccm compliant openwindows true mostly courtesy dave lemke ncd stuart marks sun subject 114 \) figure window manager running \? ca n't reliably tell whatever mechanism could use could spoofed case cases , n't care window manager running , long things icccm manner cases particular window managers known things wrong checking particular hints placed window window manager problem may appropriate cases alternatively , may appropriate determine window manager running order take advantage specific added features \( olwm 's push pin menus \) order give program added functionality beware window manager 's functions providing functionality even missing surely leads future compatibility problems subject 115 \) skeleton x program available \? general framework program macintosh handles lots odds ends overhead development window system used platform additional development x , problem typically solved using interactive application builder tool using cut paste existing x applications good applications might look manipulate want test one little thing include contrib clients , simple r4 program puts window allows offers starting point quick hacks , xaw examples examples directory r3 r4 distributions , xlib hello world example r3 doc r4 doc tutorials updated version program uses r4 xlib calls current icccm conventions posted 2 90 comp windows x glenn tektronix 3 90 addition , sample xt program \( xaw xm \) rainer klute showing open multiple displays catch broken display connection available export lcs mit edu contrib tar z 4 92 subject 116 \) xtgetvalues work \( sic \) \? xtgetvalues interface retrieving resources widget sensitive type variable code may something like arg args 3 int int sensitive oops wrong data type 0 xtsetarg \( args , , sensitive \) xtgetvalues \( widget , args , \) boolean , machines single byte declaring variable sensitive boolean works properly problem comes often using particular toolkits redefine xt types dimension position code assumes int similar problems types actually short general safe use actual type resource , appears widget 's man page 11 90 subject 117 \) n't xtresizewidget work \? 're probably trying use functions application code used internally widgets functions parent widget change geometry children promising functions , \( \) \( \) , also use widgets , case child request change parent way application request geometry change widget issue xtsetvalues call setting geometry resources although result widget internal called , application code must use standard xtsetvalues interface risk data becoming corrupted xlib calls xmovewindow \( \) \( \) similarly avoided n't used change , , , subject 118 \) n't call like \? although various details current implementation xt internals make difficult , major reason call exists remains undefined set resources new widget resources typically set based location instance hierarchy resources change instance moves \? happen widget 's children \? time semantics defined , would probably little advantage destroying old widget creating new widget correct location desired resources , setting resources correctly majority work creating new widget note possible oi toolkit david b lewis faq craft uunet uu net faqs , ma'am joe friday david b lewis temporarily speaking visual , inc day dbl visual com evening david craft uunet uu net
queloz bernina ethz ch \( ronald queloz \) subject whole win screen \? organization swiss federal institute technology \( eth \) , zurich , ch lines 18 window placement screen would like configure system \( hp unix \) avoid corner given window displayed outside visible screen whole window visible impossible move window outside visible 1 done configuring window manager 's resources 2 done level 3 hardcoded solution possible , possible upper limit given window size thank information help
dbl visual com \( david b lewis \) subject comp windows x frequently asked questions \( faq \) 5 5 summary useful information x window system article visual expires sun , 2 may 1993 00 00 00 gmt reply faq craft uunet uu net \( x faq maintenance address \) organization visual , inc lines 890 archive name x faq last modified 1993 04 04 subject 119 \) i'm writing widget ca n't use float resource value float resources portable size value may larger size xtpointer try using pointer float instead xaw scrollbar float resources handled way subject 120 \) memory leak x11r4 xtdestroywidget \( \) \? ! yes unofficial fix 19 x11r4 destroy c destroy c 1 37 thu jul 11 15 41 25 1991 lib xt destroy c thu jul 11 15 42 23 1991 1 , 4 1 , 5 xconsortium destroy c , v 1 37 90 09 28 10 21 32 swick exp plus unofficial patches revisions 1 40 1 41 copyright 1987 , 1988 digital equipment corporation , maynard , massachusetts , 221 , 239 int 0 ! dr app destroy list \( app destroy count \) \( dr dispatch level dispatch level \) widget w dr widget \( app destroy count \) bcopy \( \( char \) \( dr 1 \) , \( char \) dr , ! app destroy count sizeof \( \) \) \( w \) else dr 222 , 245 int 0 ! dr \( app destroy count \) result calls xtdestroywidget , could cause app destroy list dr app destroy list \( dr dispatch level dispatch level \) widget w dr widget \( app destroy count \) bcopy \( \( char \) \( dr 1 \) , \( char \) dr , ! \( app destroy count \) sizeof \( \) \) \( w \) else donna converse , converse expo lcs mit edu subject 121 \) callbacks guaranteed called order registered \? although books demonstrate current implementation xt happens call callback procedures order registered , specification guarantee sequence , supplemental authoritative documents \( e asente swick volume \) say order undefined callback list manipulated widget application , xt cannot guarantee order execution general , callback procedures thought operating independently one another depend side effects callbacks operating needed , single callback registered explicitly call functions necessary 4 92 thanks converse expo lcs mit edu subject 122 \) n't xtdestroywidget \( \) actually destroy widget \? xtdestroywidget \( \) operates two passes , order avoid leaving dangling data structures function call marks widget , actually destroyed program returns event loop subject 123 \) query user using xt \? possible code looks like trivial callback , clear flow control calls askuser \( \) block answer set one valid values yes answer , code drops callback back event processing loop void quit \( widget w , xtpointer client , xtpointer call \) int answer answer askuser \( w , really quit \? \) \( ret yes answer \) answer askuser \( w , really positive \? \) \( ret yes answer \) exit \( 0 \) realistic example might ask whether create file whether overwrite accomplished entering second event processing loop waiting user answers question answer returned calling function function askuser \( \) looks something like , motif replaced widget set specific code create sort dialog box displaying question string buttons ok , cancel help equivalents int askuser \( w , string \) widget w char string int answer ret none used marker widget dialog could cache carry , arg args 3 int n 0 xtappcontext context n 0 xtsetarg \( args n , , \( string , default charset \) \) n xtsetarg \( args n , , application modal \) n dialog \( xtparent \( w \) , string , args , n \) xtaddcallback \( dialog , , response , answer \) xtaddcallback \( dialog , , response , answer \) xtaddcallback \( dialog , , response , answer \) \( dialog \) context xtwidgettoapplicationcontext \( w \) \( answer ret none \( context \) \) \( context , \) xtdestroywidget \( dialog \) blow away dialog box shell return answer dialog supports three buttons , set call function user variable answer set user finally selects one choices void response \( w , client , call \) widget w xtpointer client xtpointer call int answer \( int \) client reason \( \) call switch \( reason reason \) case ok answer ret yes define value break case cancel answer ret break case help answer ret help break default return code back point answer needed continues thanks dan heller \( argv sun com \) code dan 's r3 contrib library 2 91 subject 124 \) determine name existing widget \? widget id need know name widget users r4 later best using xtname \( \) function , work widgets non widget objects still using r3 , use simple bit code want note depends widget 's internal data structures necessarily portable future versions xt , including r4 include x11 h include x11 h string xtname \( widget \) widget widget work non widget objects return \( widget core xrm name \) 7 90 modified suggestion larry rogers \( larry boris webo dg com \) 9 91 subject 125 \) get error drawing xtwindow \( widget \) \? i'm order get window xlib graphics within xt based program canvas xtcreatemanagedwidget \( , , \) drawing area window xtwindow \( canvas \) get window associated widget xdrawline \( , window , \) produces error window associated widget created part realization widget using window id null \( window \) could create error describe necessary call xtrealizewidget \( \) attempting use window associated widget note window created xtrealizewidget \( \) call , server may actually mapped yet , also wait expose event window drawing subject 126 \) get badmatch error calling xgetimage \? badmatch error occur specified rectangle goes edge screen n't want catch error deal , take following steps avoid error 1 \) make pixmap size rectangle want capture 2 \) clear pixmap background using xfillrectangle 3 \) use xcopyarea copy window pixmap 4 \) get noexpose event , copy clean use xgetimage grab image pixmap 5 \) get one events , copy n't clean , x width height members event structures tell parts pixmap n't good 6 \) get rid pixmap probably takes lot memory 10 92 thanks oliver jones \( oj pictel com \) subject 127 \) application tell run x \? number programs offer x modes otherwise run straight character mode easiest way application determine running x display attempt open connection x server display xopendisplay \( display name \) \( display \) x stuff else curses something else display name either string specified command line following display , convention , otherwise \( char \) null case xopendisplay uses value display , set superior simply checking existence display command line argument checking display set environment , neither adequate 5 91 subject 128 \) make busy cursor application computing \? necessary call \( \) every window application \? easiest thing create single inputonly window large largest possible screen make child toplevel window clipped window , wo n't affect application \( needs big largest possible screen case user window busy moves elsewhere within virtual desktop \) substitute toplevel top widget \( similar code work xlib applications use top window \) unsigned long valuemask xsetwindowattributes attributes ignore device events busy cursor displayed valuemask attributes propagate mask \( keypressmask buttonpressmask \) attributes cursor \( xtdisplay \( toplevel \) , xc watch \) window big display screen , clipped parent window , never worry resizing xcreatewindow \( xtdisplay \( toplevel \) , xtwindow \( toplevel \) , 0 , 0 , 65535 , 65535 , \( unsigned int \) 0 , 0 , inputonly , copyfromparent , valuemask , attributes \) maximum size could replaced real size screen , particularly avoid servers problems windows larger want use busy cursor , map raise window go back normal , automatically keep getting extra mouse events depending precisely window manager works , may may similar effect keystrokes well addition , note also xaw widgets support resource temporarily reset , merely wish change cursor without blocking pointer events thanks andrew \( aw cellar bae bellcore com \) , dan heller \( argv sun com \) , mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu 11 90 , 5 91 subject 129 \) fork without hanging parent x program \? x based application unix processes continue run closed typically vanish children terminated children inherit parent open x connection display need fork , immediately , child process , close \( \( xtdisplay \( widget \) \) \) close file descriptor display information exec able exit parent alternatively , make call , causes file descriptor closed exec \( void \) \( \( \) , f , 1 \) thanks janet \( tramp colorado edu \) , gordon \( ccc amdahl com \) 2 91 greg \( frame com \) , 3 93 subject 130 \) make xt xlib calls signal handler \? xlib xt mutual exclusion protecting critical sections signal handler makes call wrong time \( might function calling already executing \) , leave library inconsistent state note ansi c standard points behavior signal handler undefined signal handler calls function signal \( \) , problem specific xlib xt posix specification mentions functions may called safely may assumed functions called xlib xt functions work around problem setting flag interrupt handler later checking work procedure timer event previously added note article x journal 1 4 example o'reilly volume 6 error thanks pete ware \( ware cis ohio state edu \) donna converse \( converse expo lcs mit edu \) , 5 92 subject 131 \) xlib sequence lost errors \? may see errors issue xlib requests xlib error handler , , likely , make calls generate x requests xt xlib signal handler , n't case subject 132 \) xt program handle socket , pipe , file input \? 's common need write xt program accept input user via x connection file descriptor , operates efficiently without blocking either x connection file descriptor solution use xtappaddinput \( \) open file descriptor , use xtappaddinput \( \) register input handler input handler called every time something file descriptor requiring program 's attention write input handler like would xt callback , work quickly returns important use non blocking system calls input handlers input handlers read file descriptor , although input handler write handle exception conditions wish careful register input handler read disk file find function called even n't input pending xtappaddinput \( \) actually working supposed input handler called whenever file descriptor ready read , new data read disk file \( unlike pipe socket \) almost always ready read , however , spin back beginning read data 've read result function almost always called every time around xtappmainloop \( \) way get type interaction expecting add line beginning function test whether new data \( ioctl \( fd , , n \) 1 n 0 \) return , called frequently , application effectively busy wait may better using xtappaddinput \( \) instead setting timer timer procedure checking file input courtesy dan heller \( argv ora com \) , 8 90 mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu 5 91 ollie jones \( oj pictel com \) 6 92 subject 133 \) simulate button press release event widget \? using xsendevent \( \) 's likely 're setting window field event , xt needs order match widget receive event 're sending events application , use \( \) instead efficient xsendevent \( \) avoid round trip server depending well widget written , may able call action procedures order get effects want courtesy mark \( sbc com \) , 11 90 subject 134 \) n't anything appear run simple program \? window xcreatesimplewindow \( display , root window , size hints x , size hints , size hints width , size hints height , border width , blackpixel \( display , screen \) , whitepixel \( display , screen \) \) \( display , window , exposuremask buttonpressmask \) xmapwindow \( display , window \) xdrawline \( display , window , gc , 5 , 5 , 100 , 100 \) right map window drawing however , window ready drawn actually appears screen application receives expose event drawing done generally appear 'll see code like many programs code would appear window created mapped \( ! done \) xnextevent \( display , event \) switch \( event type \) case expose expose events , redraw xdrawline \( display , window , gc , 5 , 5 , 100 , 100 \) break note second problem xlib implementations n't set default graphics context correct foreground background colors , program could previously include code gc values foreground blackpixel \( display , screen \) e g gc values background whitepixel \( display , screen \) e g gc xcreategc \( display , window , , gc values \) note code uses blackpixel whitepixel avoid assuming 1 black 0 white vice versa relationship pixels 0 1 colors black white implementation dependent may reversed , may even correspond black white also note actually using blackpixel whitepixel usually wrong thing finished program , ignores user 's preference foreground background also note run situation xt based program draw xtwindow \( w \) right realized may yet appeared subject 135 \) difference screen screen \? 'screen' xlib structure includes information one monitors virtual monitors single x display supports server support several independent screens numbered unix 0 0 , unix 0 1 , unix 0 2 , etc 'screen' second digit 0 , 1 , 2 thought index array available screens particular display connection macros use obtain information particular screen application running typically two forms one takes screen one takes display screen number xt based programs , typically use \( widget \) determine screen application running , uses single screen \( part confusion may arise fact macros return characteristics screen display names , , etc \) subject 136 \) use c x11 \? motif \? xview \? x11r4 5 header files compatible c motif 1 1 header files usable inside extern c however , definition string intrinsic h conflict string class needs worked around projects help , set c classes jean daniel wrap x toolkit widgets , available via anonymous ftp export lcs mit edu contrib 1 2 tar z 7 92 fr \( 129 175 15 1 \) pub 1 2 tar z works building set c classes parallel class tree widgets c interviews toolkit obtainable via anonymous ftp interviews stanford edu interviews uses box glue model similar tex constructing user interfaces supports multiple looks user interfaces sample applications include document editor \( doc \) , macdraw like drawing program \( idraw \) interface builder \( \) things , class library written rome air force base strategic air command , available freeware archive sites motif public domain library defines c class wrappers motif 1 1 adds application class , e g , initializing x , also integrates wcl widget set work developed ronald van loon rvloon cv ruu nl based x , set bindings done university lowell graphics research laboratory current sources available dec com \( 192 5 214 1 \) pub x11 motif 21 jul 92 tar z source code examples doug young 's object oriented programming c osf motif isbn 0 13 1 include widget wrappers include set classes higher level facilities commonly needed motif xt based applications check export ftp contrib young c tar z rogue wave offers view h c programmers using motif info 1 800 487 3217 1 503 754 product called ltd , ireland \( \? \? \) apparently c based toolkit multiple window systems , including pm , windows , x motif xv sold qualix \( 415 572 0200 fax 1300 \) implements interface gil files sun 's openwindows developers guide 3 0 produces xview wrapper classes c uit set c classes embedding xview toolkit intended use sun 's openwindows developers guide 3 0 builder tool sources export mit edu au uit tar z version 2 released 5 28 92 also likely use \( saber c \) reasonable alternative parcplace 's \( formerly solbourne 's \) object interface thanks douglas rand \( mitre org \) george wu \( gwu tcs com \) 2 91 subject 137 \) obtain alternate language bindings x \? versions clx lisp bindings part x11 core source distributions version clx r5 tape 10 91 version 5 0 2 9 92 export lcs mit edu contrib clx r5 02 tar z saic ada x11 bindings anonymous ftp pub stars unisys com \( 128 126 164 2 \) x ada study team sponsored nasa jsc , apparently working bindings information ghg hou tx us gnu smalltalk beta native smalltalk binding x called \( steven byrne eng sun com \) still beginning stages , documentation sparse outside smalltalk code sources available pub gnu smalltalk 1 1 1 tar z prep ai mit edu \( 18 71 0 38 \) ugle unit \( 129 241 1 97 \) prolog bindings \( called \) written ted kim ucla supported part darpa available anonymous ftp export lcs mit edu contrib tar z ftp cs ucla edu pub tar z prolog language bindings depend quintus type foreign function interface prolog developer gotten work quintus prolog inquiries go cs ucla edu 3 90 scheme bindings xlib , osf motif , xaw part elk distribution version 1 5a export obsoletes version r5 contrib tape x scm , bolt accessory 's scm scheme interpreter provides interface xlib , motif , openlook , available via ftp ai mit edu archive scm 05 tar z nexus yorku ca pub scheme new 05 tar z ada bindings motif , explicitly , eventually made available jet propulsion laboratories , probably normal electronic means advance information obtained jpl nasa gov , may respond time permits complete binding x motif ada language , many common systems based part upon saic unisys bindings also includes uil ada translator info systems engineering research corporation , 1 800 ada serc \( well ! serc apple com \) also mit consortium , although involved producing ada bindings x , maintains partial listing people involved x ada information available donna converse , converse expo lcs mit edu subject 138 \) get window 's background pixel pixmap \? set , background pixel pixmap window cannot read clients reason client create pixmap , set background pixmap window , free pixmap window keeps background , pixmap destroyed 're sure window background pixel \( pixmap \) , use xcleararea \( \) clear region background color use xgetimage \( \) read back pixel however , action contents window , suffers race conditions exposures courtesy dave lemke ncd stuart marks sun note applies border pixel pixmap \( mis \) feature protocol allows server free manipulate pixel pixmap however wants requiring server keep original pixel pixmap , \( potentially lot \) space saved courtesy jim fulton , mit x consortium subject 139 \) create transparent window \? completely transparent window easy get use inputonly window order create window mostly transparent , several choices shape extension first released x11r4 offers easy way make non rectangular windows , set shape window fit areas window however , servers support extension machine specific method implementing transparent windows particular servers use overlay plane supported hardware note x notion transparent color index generally portable solution use large number tiny windows , makes operating application unit difficult final answer consider whether really need transparent window would satisfied able overlay application window information , draw separate colors appear properly thanks der mouse , mouse lightning mcrcim mcgill edu , 3 92 see also x journal 1 4 complete answer , including code samples last option subject 140 \) n't gxxor produce mathematically correct color values \? using gxxor may expect drawing value black background black , example , produce white however , drawing operation work rgb values colormap indices color resulting colormap index actually points undefined visually random unless actually filled many x servers black white often 0 1 1 0 programs taking advantage mathematical coincidence break want combining colors gxxor , allocating number color cells filling chosen pre computed values want use gxxor simply switch two colors , take shortcut setting background color gc \( graphics context \) 0 foreground color value draws red , say , result blue , draws blue result red foreground value xor colormap indices red blue thanks chris \( zia nrao edu \) ken whaley \( whaley spectre pa dec com \) , 2 91 subject 141 \) every color allocate show black \? make sure 're using 16 bits 8 red , green , blue fields xcolor structure scaled 0 nothing 65535 full blast forget scale \( using , example , 0 255 color \) xalloccolor function perform correctly resulting color usually black thanks paul asente , asente adobe com , 7 91 subject 142 \) ca n't program get standard colormap \? image processing program uses \( \) get standard colormap , n't work \( \) used property xa rgb default map create standard colormap returns one one already exists use xstdcmap order create standard colormap first 1 91 der mouse \( mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu \) subject 143 \) pixmap copy screen show garbage \? initial contents pixmaps undefined means servers allocate memory leave around whatever happens usually garbage probably want clear pixmap first using xfillrectangle \( \) function gxcopy foreground pixel whatever color want background \( 0l using pixmap mask \) courtesy dave lemke ncd stuart marks sun subject 144 \) check whether window id valid \? program id window remote display want check whether window exists anything x asynchronous , n't guarantee window would still exist time got id time sent event window otherwise manipulated send event without checking , install error handler catch badwindow errors , would indicate window longer exists scheme work except rare occasion original window destroyed id another window courtesy ken lee \( klee synoptics com \) , 4 90 subject 145 \) two applications draw window \? yes x server assigns ids windows resources \( actually , server assigns bits , client others \) , application knows id manipulate resource almost x server resource , except gcs private color cells , shared problem face window id multiple applications simple way handle \( solves problem running different machines \) first application create specially named property root window put window id second application property , whose name also knows , draw whatever wants window note scheme works iff one instance first application running , scheme subject limitations mentioned question using window ids remote displays note also still need coordinate higher level cooperation among applications note also two processes share window try use server connection one process child , close connection server open connection mostly courtesy phil \( wpd sgi com \) 6 90 subject 146 \) ca n't program work tvtwm swm \? number applications , including xwd , xwininfo , xsetroot , handle virtual root window tvtwm swm use typically return wrong child root general solution add code use application would normally use rootwindow \( dpy , screen \) function name description gets root window , even 's virtual root arguments display screen returns root window client include x11 h window \( dpy , scr \) display dpy int scr window , , children unsigned int window root rootwindow \( dpy , scr \) atom swm vroot none int swm vroot xinternatom \( dpy , swm vroot , false \) xquerytree \( dpy , root , , , children , \) \( 0 \) atom actual type int actual format long nitems , window null \( \( dpy , children , swm vroot , 0 , 1 , false , xa window , actual type , actual format , nitems , , \( unsigned char \) \) success \) root break return root courtesy david elliott \( dce sony com \) similar code ssetroot , version xsetroot distributed tvtwm 2 91 header file andreas export lcs mit edu contrib vroot h functions similarly providing macros rootwindow defaultrootwindow code include header file first run properly presence virtual desktop subject 147 \) keep window resized user \? resizing window done window manager window managers pay attention size hints application places window , guarantee window manager listen try setting minimum maximum size hints target size hope best 1 91 subject 148 \) keep window foreground times \? 's rather application constantly raise e g tracking events n't overlapped imagine conflict two programs running sure way window appear top stack make window override redirect means temporarily assuming window management duties window , want infrequently short periods time \( e g popup menus short parameter setting windows \) thanks der mouse \( mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu \) 7 92 subject 149 \) make text bitmaps blink x \? easy way unless 're willing depend sort extension \( yet non existent \) , arrange blinking , either redrawing contents periodically , possible , playing games colormap changing color contents thanks mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu \( der mouse \) , 7 91 subject 150 \) get double click xlib \? users xt support translation manager help get notification double clicking good way get double click xlib , protocol provide enough support double clicks client side timeouts , unless single click action defer actually taking next see event server thus , timeouts , means system dependent code implementations , use get file descriptor x connection use select \( \) something similar note many user interface references suggest double click used extend action indicated single click case interface execute first action compromise check second event determine whether , , single click action double click action thanks mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu \( der mouse \) , 4 93 subject 151 \) ! render rotated text \? xlib intentionally provide sophisticated graphics capabilities , leaving server extensions clients side graphics libraries choice , want stay within core x protocol , render text pixmap , read back via xgetimage \( \) , rotate hand whatever matrices want , put back server via xputimage \( \) specifically 1 \) create bitmap b write text 2 \) create image b \( via xgetimage \) 3 \) create image i2 big enough handle transformation 4 \) x , i2 , i2 \( x , \) \( , b \) x cos \( theta \) sin \( theta \) b x sin \( theta \) cos \( theta \) 5 \) render i2 note careful implement lose bits algorithm based shear transformations may fact better high level server extensions graphics packages available x also permit rendering rotated text display postscript , pex , phigs , gks , although capable arbitrary rotation probably use fonts would found printer addition , enough access server install font , create font consists letters rotated predefined angle application figure placement glyph courtesy der mouse \( mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu \) , eric taylor \( wilkins tmc edu \) , ken lee \( klee synoptics com \) , 11 90 liam quin \( lee sq com \) , 12 90 interviews \( c ui toolkit , x contrib software \) support rendering rotated fonts x could one source example code brian r smith \( cs umn edu \) , 3 91 another possibility use hershey fonts stroke rendered used x converting xdrawline requests eric pencom com , 10 91 program alan richardson \( mppa3 syma sussex ac uk \) \( posted comp sources x july 14 1992 \) paints rotated font implementing method using outline \( hershey \) font xvertext package alan richardson \( mppa3 syma sussex ac uk \) set functions facilitate writing text angle version 3 0 recently released alt sources comp sources misc 3 93 also export contrib xvertext 3 0 shar z o'reilly 's x resource volume 3 includes information hp modifications x fonts server provide rotated scaled text subject 152 \) x registry \? \( reserve names \? \) places x toolkit , applications , x protocol define use string names context conflicts possible different components use name different things mit x consortium maintains registry names domains names , selection names , selection targets , resource types , application classes , class extension record types several others list 7 91 directory mit doc registry r5 tape also available sending send docs registry xstuff mail server register names \( first come , first served \) ask questions send expo lcs mit edu sure include postal address confirmation 11 90 condensed asente swick appendix h david b lewis faq craft uunet uu net faqs , ma'am joe friday david b lewis temporarily speaking visual , inc day dbl visual com evening david craft uunet uu net
guy x co uk \( guy singh \) subject mouse buttons 1 , 2 3 urgent ! reply dmu ac uk 's message 5 apr 93 10 10 23 gmt x disclaimer view ixi ltd unless explicitly stated lines 29 nntp posting host x co uk organization lot x copyright author asserts right message 5 apr 93 10 10 23 gmt , dmu ac uk \( \) said ik nntp posting host elm ik know sounds stupid , ik anyone know control individual mouse buttons ik writing application , currently makes use ik buttonpressmask , however invoked pressing ik mouse button want able restrict ik one 3 buttons tried , ik get undefined errors know done , ik pretty sure theres easy answer , n't know ik ik time essence event mask particular mouse button press however event handler use event structure passed query find button pressed e void \( widget w , xtpointer data , xevent event \) catch button 1 \( usually left button \) \( event button \) action else nothing exit function guy singh , ixi internet guy x co uk vision park uucp guy ixi uucp cambridge bang ! uunet ! ixi ! guy cb4 , uk tel 44 223 236 555
ethan cs columbia edu \( ethan solomita \) subject x protocol packet type article cs organization columbia university department computer science lines 7 article slacvm slac stanford edu dep slacvm slac stanford edu writes way identify x protocol packet decnet \? tcp ip \? information packets n't necessarily distinctive need know x11 connection ethan
beck irzr17 inf tu dresden de \( andre beck \) subject drawing colour pixmaps rectangular organization dept computer science , tu dresden , germany lines 27 distribution world reply andre beck irs inf tu dresden de nntp posting host irzr17 inf tu dresden de article 1993mar31 149 se citri edu au , jck catt citri edu au \( justin \) writes writing program needs draw colour xpm pixmap files onto background without borders show cannot xor colours stuff cannot use xcopyplane \( \) single planes want able specify colour pixmap used opaque colour possible games problem mouse pointer \? help would helpful \? \) wanna masking build bitmap \( pixmap depth one \) pixels name opaque 1 \( get copied \) others 0 use bitmap clip mask gc used xcopyarea \( \) , remember adjust clip origin coordinates xcopyarea \( \) blit origin mouse pointer \( besides driven using ramdac analog mapping \) uses mask , warned mask especially moving around mask annoying slow xservers even 40 mips brain inside andre' beck \( abpsoft \) mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de
beck irzr17 inf tu dresden de \( andre beck \) subject pixmaps , masks , icons clues \? organization dept computer science , tu dresden , germany lines 40 distribution world reply andre beck irs inf tu dresden de nntp posting host irzr17 inf tu dresden de article sophia inria fr , koala inria fr \( le hors \) writes article buzz lion bear com , buzz bear com \( buzz moschetti \) writes simple x graphics question assume valid window w , icon pixmap , background mask \( also pixmap \) icon wish place icon \( x , \) w without background question combination xcopyarea \( \) gc functions necessary \? think idea merge pixels pixmap w indicated corresponding mask pixel value specifically , problem involves pixmap mask generated xpm libs clues would appreciated xpm provides symbolic color names specified load time , want would suggest define background symbol pixmap file 'll set whatever color used widget window want put pixmap would surely simplest fastest way want soon blit two icons top little , see rectangular blit crashes much icon first , draws full rectangle way masking create bitmap pixels merged 1 merged 0 , set clip mask gc bitmap , set clip x origin clip origin gc x coordinates blit icon destination drawable , use gxcopy , xcopyarea \( \) icon pixmap destination drawable using gc brain inside andre' beck \( abpsoft \) mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de
dbl visual com \( david b lewis \) subject comp windows x frequently asked questions \( faq \) 1 5 summary useful information x window system reply faq craft uunet uu net \( x faq maintenance address \) organization visual , inc expires sun , 2 may 1993 00 00 00 gmt lines 938 archive name x faq part1 last modified 1993 04 04 article several following contain answers frequently asked questions \( faq \) often seen comp windows x posted help reduce volume newsgroup provide hard find information general interest please redistribute article ! article includes answers following questions , loosely grouped categories questions marked indicate questions new issue significant changes content since last issue marked ! 0 \) topic basic information sources definitions 1 \) ! books articles x good beginners \? 2 \) ! courses x various x toolkits available \? 3 \) ! conferences x coming \? 4 \) x related public mailing lists available \? 5 \) meet x developers \? 6 \) related faqs available \? 7 \) ask net question maximize helpful responses \? 8 \) publications discussing x available \? 9 \) common abbreviations acronyms \? 10 \) icccm \? \( write x friendly applications \? \) 11 \) x consortium , join \? 12 \) open look motif \? 13 \) openwindows \? 14 \) decwindows \? 15 \) pex \? 16 \) low bandwidth x \( lbx \) \? xremote \? ppp \? slip \? cslip \? 17 \) topic using x day day life 18 \) ! different window managers \? 19 \) x session exit kill window manager \( sic \) \? 20 \) save state x session , like \? 21 \) use another window manager dec 's session manager \? 22 \) change keyboard auto repeat rate \? 23 \) remap keys keyboard produce string \? 24 \) ! make screendump print application \? 25 \) make color postscript screendump x display \? 26 \) make screendump including x cursor \? 27 \) convert view mac tiff gif sun pict img fax images x \? 28 \) change titlebar xterm window \? 29 \) find xterm control sequences \? 30 \) r3 xterm , et al , fail r4 server \? 31 \) use characters ascii 127 xterm \? 32 \) xterm menus small \? 33 \) print current selection \? 34 \) xt use environment variables loading resources \? 35 \) r4 xdm put picture behind log window \? 36 \) n't path set xdm runs xsession file \? 37 \) keep display rlogin another machine \? 38 \) design font \? 39 \) adding font server work \( sic \) \? 40 \) convert snf font back bdf font \? 41 \) general method getting font usable format \? 42 \) use decwindows fonts non decwindows server \? 43 \) add bdf fonts decwindows server \? 44 \) ! set backgroundpixmap defaults file \? \( xpm \? \) 45 \) ca n't override translations \? first item works 46 \) xclock oclock show different \? 47 \) xmh , n't work get mh \? 48 \) suddenly unable connect sun x server \? 49 \) n't r5 pex demos work mono screen \? 50 \) ! get sun type 45 keyboard fully supported xsun \? 51 \) report bugs x \? 52 \) get warning widget class version mismatch \? 53 \) find dictionary server xwebster \? 54 \) topic obtaining x related software hardware 55 \) x public domain software \? 56 \) compatible x11r3 , r4 , r5 \? changes \? 57 \) ! get x11r5 \( source binaries \) \? 58 \) ! get patches x11r5 \? 59 \) xstuff mail archive \? 60 \) ! get x11r4 \( source binaries \) \? 61 \) get osf motif \? 62 \) motif work x11r4 \? x11r5 \? 63 \) get toolkits implementing open look \? 64 \) ! get x sources \? \( including r5 modifications \) 65 \) ! get interesting widgets \? 66 \) get good file selector widget \? 67 \) widget appropriate use drawing canvas \? 68 \) current state world x terminals \? 69 \) get x server \? 70 \) get x server pc \( dos unix \) \? 71 \) get x server macintosh running \? 72 \) get x amiga \? 73 \) get fast x server workstation \? 74 \) ! get server high end sun graphics board \? 75 \) get x terminal server low end sun 3 50 \? 76 \) terminal emulators xterm available \? 77 \) ! get x based editor word processor \? 78 \) get x based mailer \? 79 \) ! get x based paint draw program \? 80 \) ! get x based plotting program \? 81 \) get x based spreadsheet \? 82 \) get x based project management software \? 83 \) get x based postscript previewer \? 84 \) get x based gks package \? 85 \) get x based pex package \? 86 \) get x based tex dvi previewer \? 87 \) get x based troff previewer \? 88 \) ! get wysiwyg interface builder \? 89 \) find x tools callable shell scripts \? 90 \) get x based debugger \? 91 \) ! tee x program identically several displays \? 92 \) topic building x distribution topic needs updating r5 93 \) 's good source information configuring x build \? 94 \) n't sun cg6 work r5 \? 95 \) n't sun sunos 4 1 know , etc \? 96 \) strange problem building x clients sunos 4 1 2 \? 97 \) ca n't gcc compile x11r4 sparc \? 98 \) errors running x built gcc \? 99 \) problems compiling x11r4 older sun3 \? 100 \) problems compiling x server sunos 4 1 1 \? 101 \) problems using r4 shared libraries sunos 4 \? 102 \) olit programs run r5 xt \? \( undefined \) 103 \) get around sunos 4 1 security hole \? 104 \) get around frame buffer security hole \? 105 \) topic building x programs 106 \) imake \? 107 \) get imake \? 108 \) program imakefile makefile \? 109 \) ca n't link xlib shape routines \? 110 \) problems xtinherit found sun \? 111 \) ca n't compile r3 xaw contrib programs new x \? 112 \) topic programming problems puzzles 113 \) n't program get keystrokes select \( sic \) \? 114 \) figure window manager running \? 115 \) skeleton x program available \? 116 \) xtgetvalues work \( sic \) \? 117 \) n't xtresizewidget work \? 118 \) n't call like \? 119 \) i'm writing widget ca n't use float resource value 120 \) memory leak x11r4 xtdestroywidget \( \) \? ! 121 \) callbacks guaranteed called order registered \? 122 \) n't xtdestroywidget \( \) actually destroy widget \? 123 \) query user using xt \? 124 \) determine name existing widget \? 125 \) get error drawing xtwindow \( widget \) \? 126 \) get badmatch error calling xgetimage \? 127 \) application tell run x \? 128 \) make busy cursor application computing \? 129 \) fork without hanging parent x program \? 130 \) make xt xlib calls signal handler \? 131 \) xlib sequence lost errors \? 132 \) xt program handle socket , pipe , file input \? 133 \) simulate button press release event widget \? 134 \) n't anything appear run simple program \? 135 \) difference screen screen \? 136 \) use c x11 \? motif \? xview \? 137 \) obtain alternate language bindings x \? 138 \) get window 's background pixel pixmap \? 139 \) create transparent window \? 140 \) n't gxxor produce mathematically correct color values \? 141 \) every color allocate show black \? 142 \) ca n't program get standard colormap \? 143 \) pixmap copy screen show garbage \? 144 \) check whether window id valid \? 145 \) two applications draw window \? 146 \) ca n't program work tvtwm swm \? 147 \) keep window resized user \? 148 \) keep window foreground times \? 149 \) make text bitmaps blink x \? 150 \) get double click xlib \? 151 \) ! render rotated text \? 152 \) x registry \? \( reserve names \? \) suggestions corrections answers additional information , please send directly uunet ! craft ! faq information included next revision \( possibly one thanks many suggestions n't incorporated yet \) version faq process r3 information replaced r5 information posting intended distributed approximately beginning month new versions archived export lcs mit edu also available mail server pit manager mit edu archive server nic switch ch \( send help \) information contained herein gathered variety sources many cases attribution lost would like claim responsibility particular item , please let know conventions used telephone numbers tend bell system unless otherwise noted prices items included email addresses work us x window system trademark massachusetts institute technology trademarks property respective owners \( note script george ferguson \( ferguson cs rochester edu \) pretty print faq available ugle unit pub x11 contrib \) subject 0 \) topic basic information sources definitions subject 1 \) ! books articles x good beginners \? ken lee synoptics \( klee synoptics com \) regularly posts comp windows x ba windows x bibliography containing cites known reference books manuals also cites selected technical articles x x programming ftp able export lcs mit edu contrib gatekeeper dec com pub x11 contrib set reference books tutorials useful beginners appear list comments gathered variety places asente , paul j , swick , ralph r , x window system toolkit , complete programmer 's guide specification , digital press , 1990 bible xt treasury information , excellent invaluable distributed digital press , isbn 1 051 3 , order number ey dp prentice hall , isbn 0 13 6 also available dec direct 1 800 digital examples export lcs mit edu contrib gatekeeper dec com \( 16 1 0 2 \) pub x11 contrib asente swick examples tar z also posted comp sources x xt examples 1 5 jones , oliver , introduction x window system , prentice hall , 1988 , 1989 isbn 0 13 5 excellent introduction programming xlib written programmer mind , book includes many practical tips found anywhere else book broad o'reilly xlib tutorial , jones experienced x programmer shows quality depth material book originally written , recent included corrections additions current material young , doug x window system applications programming xt \( motif version \) , prentice hall , 1989 \( isbn 0 13 8 \) excellent tutorial x window system programming applications xt , \( isbn 0 13 3 \) updated motif examples available export ones motif version ftp contrib young motif tar z young , doug john pew , x window system programming applications xt , open look edition \( isbn 0 13 x \) tutorial rewritten olit , new examples drag drop information examples export olit tar z openwindows 3 distribution openwinhome share src olit heller , dan motif programmers manual 6th volume o'reilly series covers motif application programming 's full good examples motif reference pages \( isbn 0 70 6 \) examples available uunet comp sources x nutshell archives motif 1 2 soon scheifler , robert , james , jim flowers david rosenthal , x window system complete reference xlib , x protocol , icccm , , x version 11 , release 5 , third edition , digital press , 1992 bible latest revision , enhanced version x documentation authors xlib documentation complete published description x programming interface x protocol primary reference work introductory tutorial documentation additional tutorial works usually needed new x programmers digital press order ey dp , isbn 0 13 1 nye , adrian , xlib programming manual , volume 1 xlib reference manual , volume 2 , o'reilly associates superset mit x documentation first volume tutorial broad coverage xlib , second contains reference pages xlib functions many useful reference appendices cover x11r5 \( r4 \) isbn 0 937175 26 9 \( volume 1 \) isbn 0 937175 27 7 \( volume 2 \) nye , adrian , tim o'reilly , x toolkit programming manual , volume 4 , o'reilly associates , 1989 folks o'reilly give comprehensive treatment programming mit intrinsics r4 versions available , motif 1 1 version \( volume 4m \) o'reilly , tim , ed , x toolkit reference manual , volume 5 , o'reilly associates professional reference manual mit x11r4 x11r5 xt mansfield , x window system user 's guide , addison wesley , 1989 tutorial introduction using x , upgraded r4 isbn 0 201 2 , valerie tim o'reilly x window system user 's guide , o'reilly associates tutorial introduction using x isbn 0 937175 36 6 also available r4 motif flavors , linda eric x window system administrator 's guide x11 r4 r5 ora volume 8 help x users administrators isbn 0 937175 83 8 \( prentice hall ordering 201 767 o'reilly ordering 800 998 \) addition , check x11r4 x11r5 core distribution doc tutorials useful papers tutorials , particularly file answers txt late night 's top ten x11 questions dave lemke \( lemke ncd com \) stuart marks \( sun com \) answers common questions detail new r5 versions o'reilly references \( yet volume 6 \) available 8 92 single volume , programmer 's supplement r5 david flanagan , provides overview new r5 features includes man pages xlib , xt , xmu isbn 0 937175 86 2 subject 2 \) ! courses x various x toolkits available \? advanced computing environments periodically offers least two day introduction course contact susie 415 941 information offers training xlib xol set contact corporate education training info 1 800 trainer usa bim educational services offers training x administration programming xt motif open windows courses given near brussels info edu sunbim , voice 32 \( 0 \) 2 , fax 32 \( 0 \) 2 software consultants offers three day hands courses x designed x window system developer programmer contact chris clarkson , telephone 61 8 , e mail oz au 12 92 computer technologies \( 516 485 \) offers several courses offers one week lecture lab course designed douglas young based book x window system programming tions xt , osf motif edition information brian stell \( 415 966 ! brian sgi com \) ghg offers range courses x motif information 713 488 training info ghg hou tx us hands learning live training self paced video workshops topics using programming x , xlib , xm , xt , widget writing information 617 272 , 800 248 hewlett packard \( 1 800 contact local hp center \) offers 2 day introduction x , 5 day xlib course , 1 day xt motif 1 1 seminar , 5 day motif lab course integrated computer solutions , inc , offers several multi day , hands courses x , xt , xaw motif widget sets , particular information available 617 621 0060 info ics com intelligent visual computing teaches several lab courses site motif xview 1 800 776 1 919 481 info com iris computing laboratories offers five day xlib xt courses info 1 505 988 info com ixi limited \( 44 223 462 131 \) offers regular x training courses programmers non technical managers see also unipalm , learning tree international offers four day course x window system applications development , including xlib information motif info call 800 824 \( 213 417 \) 613 748 canada courses offered major north american cities also london , stockholm , tokyo , elsewhere offers 4 day type along courses xt course ported xaw xm information available 800 433 \( ca \) mitch associates offers regular 5 day lab courses programming osf motif , usually limited cambridge , info 1 617 225 , info mta com non standard \( 33 \( 1 \) 43 36 77 50 requests nsl fr \) offers courses programming xlib , motif , creating motif widgets osf educational services \( 617 621 \) offers one day one week motif lab courses john pew offers 5 day course olit , possibly based book subject 408 224 sco \( 44 923 , info sco com \) offers training open desktop \( motif \) environment uk europe software pundits \( 617 270 \) offers range courses technology exchange \( 617 944 3700 \) offers 4 day xlib xt motif course telesoft offering 1 day plus 3 day seminar x motif information bruce sherman \( 619 457 2700 , bds telesoft com \) unipalm offers osf 's 5 day motif course 1 day overview x information unipalm training 44 952 , unipalm co uk university edinburgh developing series courses x related topics primarily non profit making training academia also commercial use information cliff booth , unipalm ltd , phone 44 223 , fax 44 223 various vendors also beginning offer x training , usually specific proprietary toolkit xt proprietary widget set dec offering xlib courses sun offers xview course various universities offering short x courses ucla , dartmouth , university lowell , university canberra \( within australia \) uc berkeley extension one week x motif class programmers san francisco starting july 29 class hands lab information contact 415 323 among best places find courses various unix conferences , usenix , unix expo , xhibition , mit x technical conference , acm tutorial weeks , c addition , x consortium posts approximately quarterly list speakers consultants provide talks variety x topics subject 3 \) ! conferences x coming \? xhibition 93 x trade show conference , tutorials , panels , presentations , vendor exhibits , held san jose convention center june 7 11 , 1993 information 1 617 621 0060 , ics com tcl tk workshop held berkeley june 10 11 , 1993 information cs berkeley edu 1993 andrew technical conference consortium annual meeting held june 24 25 , 1993 , pittsburgh information wilfred hansen cs cmu edu european x user group holds annual conference typically includes includes paper presentations vendor exhibit , x real world multimedia held 9 16 9 17 imperial college science technology , london information exug demon co uk , uit co uk p whitehead cc ic ac uk , 44 \( 0 \) 223 , fax 44 \( 0 \) 223 motif show held washington coincide fedunix federal open systems conference \( usually december \) information motif fedunix org paller fedunix org , 301 229 1062 , fax 301 229 1063 mit x technical conference typically held january boston registration information available registration expo lcs mit edu conference exhibition includes tutorials , panels , presentations vendor exhibits typically held march new york city information sigs publication group 212 274 trade shows , , siggraph show increasing presence x , including tutorials exhibits subject 4 \) x related public mailing lists available \? xpert mailing list general , public mailing list x maintained x consortium mailings gatewayed , xpert almost identical comp windows x usenet newsgroup get comp windows x , n't need added xpert mailing list otherwise , join list receive x information electronically best find local distribution perhaps someone within company already receiving mailing last resort , send mail xpert request expo lcs mit edu valid return electronic address xannounce mailing list carries major x announcements , new releases \( including public patches mit \) , public reviews , adoption standards mit x consortium , conference announcements carry advertisements , source code , patches , questions already receive usenet news group comp windows x announce xpert mailing list , n't need added xannounce mailing list otherwise , subscribe , send request xannounce request expo lcs mit edu note redistribution addresses accepted list e personal addresses wish receive xannounce , please contact mail administrator set local redistribution list put comp windows x apps gatewayed mailing list addition , x consortium sponsors public lists bug clx clx bug reports discussions x ada x ada x11 3d people interested x 3d graphics ximage people interested image processing x discussion video extensions x subscribe one lists , assuming one organization already receives , send mail list request expo lcs mit edu subject line including name list caps request addition request body message sure give address local distribution accessible mit \( eddie mit edu \) mailing list topics related open look sponsored greg unify corporation send openlook request unify com \( openlook request unify uunet uu net \) information mailing list bugs publicly available version xview source , particular , sponsored sun send information trackers request sun com mailing list topics related motif sponsored kee hinckley alfalfa software , inc send motif request alfalfa com information \( group gatewayed comp windows x motif \) mailing list topics related xpm pixmap format sponsored le hors group bull send xpm talk request sa inria fr information 1 91 mailing list discussing interviews subscribed sending interviews request interviews stanford edu mailing list \( amiga x11 nic funet fi \) topics related port x11 amiga subscribed sending mailserver nic funet fi message containing subject adding amiga x11 subs amiga x11 real name mailing list discussing parcplace 's \( formerly solbourne 's \) oi \( object interface \) toolkit subscribed oi users requests bbn com mailing list discussing multi threaded xlib subscribed mt xlib request xsoft xerox com subject 5 \) meet x developers \? o'reilly associates sponsors mailing list use x user group organizers subscribe sending listserv ora com message subscribe internet address local area x user 's groups listed issue 4 o'reilly 's x resource journal list may also available ics com french x user group called based sophia information obtained miss miss forest bp 148 157 , rue albert einstein cedex phone 33 93 95 45 00 45 01 fax 33 93 95 48 57 10 90 european x user group formed 1989 represent x users europe holds technical conferences regular intervals exug also publishes regular newsletter distributed free charge members exug also runs email mailing list members frequently used address issues european interest x exug contacted p whitehead cc ic ac uk , 44 \( 071 \) 225 , fax 44 \( 071 \) 823 german x user 's group \( preparation \) formed x programmers users associated exug interested contact olaf \( 49 30 7 79 54 64 mcvax ! unido ! tub ! olaf \) subject 6 \) related faqs available \? liam r e quin \( lee sq sq com \) posts faq open look comp windows open look jan \( jan canberra edu au \) posts faq motif comp windows x motif peter ware \( ware cis ohio state edu \) posts faq comp windows x intrinsics export contrib faq xt art mulder \( art cs ualberta ca \) posts comp windows x faq maximizing performance x steve kotsopoulos \( steve ecf toronto edu \) posts comp windows x faq using x intel based unix systems faq alt binaries pictures contains information viewing images x image formats faq comp mail mh \( gatewayed mh users ics uci edu \) includes section xmh faq comp lang lisp contains information several interface tools toolkits exists pex phigs faq subject 7 \) ask net question maximize helpful responses \? asking help net x mailing lists , sure include information setup specific , likely someone spot error without details , people want help often guess able respond always mention version x using got server came different source rest x system , give details , give machine type , operating system , version client server machine may also appropriate mention window manager , compiler , display hardware type using tell exactly , exactly happens , expected wanted happen command fails , include exact transcript session message program wrote n't work way expect , include little source necessary \( small test case , please ! \) readers reproduce problem subject 8 \) publications discussing x available \? trade magazines \( unix world , unix review , computer language , etc \) publishing articles x two x specific publications include o'reilly associates publishes x resource practical journal x window system \( 103 morris st , , ca \) editorial information adrian nye , adrian ora com x journal started bi monthly publication september 1991 variety x topics subscription information x journal , subscriber services , dept xxx , p box 3000 , , nj , usa editorial information editors topgun uunet uu net subject 9 \) common abbreviations acronyms \? xt x toolkit intrinsics library xlib provides functionality widget sets built xt based program application uses one widget sets uses intrinsics mechanisms manipulate widgets xmu xmu library collection miscellaneous utility functions useful building various applications widgets xaw athena widget set mit implemented sample widget set distributed x11 source xm osf motif widget set open software foundation binary kits available many hardware vendors \( xw \) hewlett packard widget set originally based r2 , several sets patches exist bring r3 , distributed x11r4 tapes supplemental patches available use r4 r5 clx common lisp x interface common lisp equivalent xlib xdmcp x display manager protocol provides uniform mechanism display x terminal request login service remote host x logical font description conventions describes standard logical font description conventions used clients query access resources rtfm common expert speak meaning please locate consult relevant documentation read forgotten manual common expression meaning take advantage fact n't limited binary license use source , luke api application programmer interface function calls , etc , programming library bdf bitmap distribution format human readable format x fonts gui graphical user interface uil user interface language , part osf motif lets programmers specify widget hierarchy simple outline form wcl widget creation language , package extends understanding xt resource format widget hierarchy actions widgets specified resources file gil file format put sun 's openwindows developers guide 3 0 uims user interface management system subject 10 \) icccm \? \( write x friendly applications \? \) inter client communication conventions manual one official x consortium standards documents define x environment describes conventions clients must observe coexist peacefully clients sharing server writing x clients , need read understand icccm , particular sections discussing selection mechanism interaction client window manager get either part r4 distribution mit later editions scheifler x window system book appendix new version o'reilly 's volume 0 , x protocol reference manual version old copies volume 1 obsolete version digital press book much readable , thanks efforts digital press 's editors improve english presentation david rosenthal , 10 90 icccm updated r5 updates published o'reilly 's programmer 's supplement release 5 complete document r5 tapes alternate definition icccm generally rtfm important least read x documents subject 11 \) x consortium , join \? mit x consortium formed january 1988 development x window system major goal promotion cooperation within computer industry creation standard software interfaces layers x window system environment mit 's role provide vendor neutral architectural administrative leadership required make work membership consortium open organization two categories membership , member \( large organizations \) affiliate \( smaller organizations \) consortium 's activities take place via electronic mail , meetings required designs specifications take shape , interest groups formed experts participating organizations typically small multi organization architecture team leads design , others acting close observers reviewers complete specification produced , may submitted formal technical review consortium proposed standard standards process typically includes public review \( outside consortium \) demonstration proof concept involvement public review process member affiliate consortium welcomed write bob scheifler , mit x consortium , laboratory computer science , 545 technology square , cambridge , 02139 complete information see xconsortium man page x11r4 distribution , information adapted 2 90 subject 12 \) open look motif \? open look motif two graphical user interfaces \( guis \) open look developed sun help many industry reviewers motif developed open software foundation \( osf \) input many osf members open look primarily user interface specification style guide several toolkits used produce open look applications motif includes api specification sanctioned motif toolkit one osf however , toolkits used produce programs look behave like osf motif one , parcplace 's \( formerly solbourne 's \) oi , virtual toolkit provides objects style open look motif , user 's choice open look gui also name product , comprising open look intrinsics toolkit variety applications thanks ian darwin , ian sq com , 5 91 subject 13 \) openwindows \? open windows \( 3 0 \) sun product encompasses window system combines news x11 compliant server \( x news \) user interface specification \( open look \) series toolkits implement \( including sunview like xview xt based olit \) xlib xt implementations number utilities \( olwm window manager , , shelltool , etc \) thanks frank greco \( govt shearson com \) , 8 90 4 92 subject 14 \) decwindows \? decwindows dec product encompasses x11 server toolkit , including widget set uil xlib xt implementations session manager number utilities \( dxwm window manager , , , etc \) \( point motif flavors toolkit applications shipped \) 8 90 subject 15 \) pex \? pex phigs extension x phigs stands programmer 's hierarchical interactive graphics system essentially library functions simplifies creation manipulation 3d graphics many platforms capable performing hardware computations involved rendering 3d objects extension allows client \( phigs case \) take advantage specialized hardware 3d graphics sun microsystems currently contracted develop freely redistributable \( copyright similar current x copyright \) sample implementation source documentation available r5 release several vendors currently selling independently developed pex servers workstations x terminals last modified 10 91 subject 16 \) low bandwidth x \( lbx \) \? xremote \? ppp \? slip \? cslip \? several options using x serial lines slip serial line ip mechanism protocol sending ip packets point point serial links around several years , implementations available many major tcp ip implementations x terminal vendors supply item , although nobody really ever uses since horribly slow tcp ip headers add 40 bytes per packet tcp ip encoding x protocol rather verbose \( rightfully optimized packing high speed links \) cslip compressed header slip variant slip compresses 40 bytes tcp ip headers 5 6 bytes still n't anything x protocol modems compression help , increase packet latency \( takes time dribble uncompressed data typical serial interfaces , plus compression assembly time \) ppp point point protocol emerging standard point point links serial lines complete set option negotiation slip growing number people see combination ppp serial line management cslip header compression becoming common running normal tcp ip protocols serial lines running raw x wire still needs compression somewhere make usable xremote name protocol set products originally developed ncd x protocol serial lines addition using low level transport mechanism similar ppp cslip , xremote removes x protocol sending previous packets using lzw compress entire data stream work done either pseudo x server proxy running host terminal server several advantages compression outside modem \( 1 \) n't compressing modems would n't otherwise using \( e g going directly connected \) , \( 2 \) reduces overhead cutting number bytes cross serial interface , \( 3 \) addition effects 2 , reduces latency delivering packets requiring modem buffer data waiting blocks compress lbx low bandwidth x x consortium project working standard area ncd xerox using ncd 's xremote protocol stepping stone developing new protocol lbx go beyond xremote adding proxy caching commonly used information \( e g connection setup data , large window properties , font metrics , , etc \) efficient encoding x protocol hope standard ready public review first half next year sample implementation available r6 additional technical information xremote works notes lbx might different available via anonymous ftp export lcs mit edu contrib following files xremote slides ps slides describing xremote xremote lbx diffs ps slides describing lbx information provided jim fulton , jim ncd com 7 92 also set slides export jim fulton 's talk 7th mit x technical conference subject 17 \) topic using x day day life subject 18 \) ! different window managers \? window manager x another client part x window system , although enjoys special privileges single window manager instead , many support different ways user interact windows different styles window layout , decoration , keyboard colormap focus approximate chronological order \( generally , recent ones icccm \) wm simple title bar window manager phased r2 r3 uwm universal window manager still popular speed , although outdated moved contrib r4 tape twm \( old \) tom 's window manager among first non mit window managers offered user great deal customization options parenting window manager ardent window manager remains hackers offers features \( dynamic menus \) found current window managers part andrew system 's window manager tiles windows n't overlap window focus preferred size dxwm digital 's dxwm part decwindows offering hp 's window manager offers 3d look precursor mwm mwm motif window manager part osf motif toolkit tektronix 's window manager offering olwm \( sun \) olwm implements open look gui style guide functionality olwm \( \) ditto gwm bull 's generic window manager emulates others built lisp interpreter version 1 7h \( 10 91 \) r5 contrib tape 1 7n avahi inria fr export lcs mit edu 3 93 swm sigma window manager r4 tape sun 's postscript based part openwindows release swm solbourne 's swm based oi toolkit offers multiple gui support also virtual window configuration information comes resources file twm \( new \) mit 's new tab window manager r4 tape twm basis several derivatives , including one r5 tape vtwm vtwm offers virtual desktop features swm , single root window implementation based r4 twm available archive servers new version , vtwm 5 0 , based r5 9 available export 3 92 tvtwm tom 's virtual tab window manager also based r4 twm provides virtual desktop modeled virtual root window swm available archive servers olvwm vtwm style virtual desktop added sun 's olwm available archive servers version 3 3 1 93 export vtwm style virtual desktop added osf 's mwm beta version floating around \( recently suresh unipalm co uk \) requires source license osf motif 1 1 3 3 92 window manager local ncd terminals offers mwm look window manager local visual technology 's terminals claude 's \( sic epfl ch \) modification r5 twm offers 32 virtual screens fashion hp vuewm source export version 2 2 2 2 93 also offers window overview used vtwm tvtwm vuewm hp 's mwm based window manager offers configurable workspaces sgi 's enhanced mwm version tvtwm offers pie menus subject 19 \) x session exit kill window manager \( sic \) \? need n't probably happening running window manager last job xsession xinitrc file x session runs long last job running , killing window manager equivalent logging instead , run window manager background , last job instead invoke something safe like exec xterm name login rv iconic special client devising exits user action x session continue explicitly logout window , whether kill restart window manager subject 20 \) save state x session , like \? although known window manager directly supports feature may equivalent writing xinitrc xsession file naming geometry wm command application \( olvwm may something close \) contributed application much looking , although complete sunview program look application archive server near several versions program floating around look recent vintage 10 90 new pseudo session managers hp 's vuewm provide saving sessions including information geometry currently running applications resource database \( staff cs uit \) 3 93 subject 21 \) use another window manager dec 's session manager \? dec 's session manager start dxwm default override , add xdefaults file something like line , naming full pathname sm wherever usr bin x11 favorite wm subject 22 \) change keyboard auto repeat rate \? turn auto repeat using xset r x protocol , however , n't provide varying auto repeat rate , capability supported systems servers running systems support , however , may provide command line flags set rate start time control server start \( see man pages xinit xdm \) , invoke server chosen settings example , start xsun server mit options 350 30 reduce sensitivity keyboard subject 23 \) remap keys keyboard produce string \? method arranging particular string produced press particular key xmodmap client , useful moving ctrl esc keys useful places , keys macro expansion \( \) clients , including xterm several x based editors , accept translation resource xterm vt100 translations override key f1 string \( setenv display unix 0 \) permits f1 pressed reset display locally within xterm takes effect new xterm clients include control characters string , use nnn , nnn octal encoding control character want include window managers , could provide facility , yet special client made available david b lewis faq craft uunet uu net faqs , ma'am joe friday david b lewis temporarily speaking visual , inc day dbl visual com evening david craft uunet uu net
dbl visual com \( david b lewis \) subject comp windows x frequently asked questions \( faq \) 2 5 summary useful information x window system reply faq craft uunet uu net \( x faq maintenance address \) organization visual , inc expires sun , 2 may 1993 00 00 00 gmt lines 929 archive name x faq part2 last modified 1993 04 04 subject 24 \) ! make screendump print application \? xwd client x11 distributions used select window background produces xwd format file image window file post processed something useful printed xpr client local printing mechanism use command csh sleep 10 xwd root output xwd spend 10 seconds setting screen entire current display saved file output xwd note xwd also undocumented \( r5 \) id flag specifying window id command line also unofficial patches export xwd specifying delay portion screen capture two publicly available programs allow interactive definition arbitrary portions display built delays xgrabsc several versions xgrabsc version 2 2 , available export 8 92 recent includes features supersedes also renders xpm output version unknown available export avahi inria fr see tar z screen dump merge edit program combining features xwd xpr available cs uwm edu 0 tar z information soft eng cs uwm edu , alberto \( alberto cfa harvard edu \) available \( 128 103 40 1 \) export 2 1 tar z post process xwd output tools , use xpr , part x11 distribution also several archives xwd2ps , produce encapsulated postscript suitable use presentations \( see export lcs mit edu contrib xwd2ps tar z contrib imagemagick tar z \) also useful pbmplus package many archive servers xim package contains level 2 color postscript output xv program grab portion x display , manipulate , save one available formats imagemagick similar capabilities also bristol technology \( info bristol com , 203 438 \) offers xprinter 2 0 , xlib api postscript pcl printers demo ftp uu net vendor bristol xprinter 459 8500 \) offers package includes screen capture facility , image processing , support postscript non postscript printers vendors' implementations x \( e g decwindows openwindows \) include session managers desktop programs include print portion screen take snapshot options platforms also tools used grab frame buffer directly sun systems , example , program produces sun raster file x terminals local screen dump utilities write postscript local serial printer vendors' implementations lpr \( e g sony \) include direct support printing xwd files , 'll typically need package massage output useful format get printer subject 25 \) make color postscript screendump x display \? need color postscript particular , grab screen image using program produce color postscript , xgrabsc xv grab screen image using xwd post process xwd color ps using xwd2ps program imagemagick distribution pbmplus package also good , xim package subject 26 \) make screendump including x cursor \? ca n't done unless x server extended consider instead system dependent mechanism , e g , capturing frame buffer subject 27 \) convert view mac tiff gif sun pict img fax images x \? program incarnation jef poskanzer 's useful portable bitmap toolkit , includes number programs converting among various image formats includes support many types bitmaps , gray scale images , full color images pbmplus updated recently recent version 12 91 export contrib tar z another tool san diego supercomputing center 's \( particular \) , packages functionality pbm single binary 's available anonymous ftp sdsc edu \( 132 249 20 22 \) useful viewing image formats jim frost 's xloadimage , version r4 directory contrib clients xloadimage later versions available , including contrib xloadimage 3 03 tar z export graeme gill 's updates earlier version xloadimage also export see xli readme xli tar z uu version 1 14 released 2 93 xv \( x image viewer \) , written bradley cis upenn edu \( john bradley \) , read display pictures sun raster , pgm , pbm , ppm , x11 bitmap , tiff , gif jpeg manipulate images adjust , color , intensity , contrast , aspect ratio , crop \) save images aforementioned formats plus postscript grab portion x display , manipulate , save one available formats program updated 5 92 see file contrib xv 2 21 tar z export lcs mit edu fuzzy pixmap manipulation , michael mlm nl cs cmu edu conversion manipulation package , similar pbmplus version 1 0 available via ftp nl cs cmu edu usr mlm ftp fbm tar z , uunet uu net pub fbm tar z , ucsd edu graphics fbm tar z img software set , paul raveling raveling venera isi edu , reads writes image format , displays x11 screen , image manipulations version 1 3 available via ftp expo lcs mit edu contrib img 1 3 tar z , along large collection color images utah rle toolkit conversion manipulation package similar pbmplus available via ftp cs utah edu pub urt , weedeater math yale edu pub urt , freebie engin umich edu pub urt xim , x image manipulator , philip thompson , essential interactive displaying , editing , filtering , converting images version x11r4 contrib area recent version \( using r4 motif 1 1 \) available gis mit edu \( 18 80 1 118 \) xim reads writes gif , xwd , xbm , tiff , rle , xim , \( writes level 2 eps \) formats also library command line utilities building applications imagemagick 2 3 2 93 cristy dupont com retrieved export 's contrib area collection utilities transform display images x server tool uses format filters popular formats \( ppm , tiff , gif , sun raster , etc \) included xtiff tool viewing tiff file x window written handle many different kinds tiff files possible remaining simple , portable efficient xtiff illustrates common problems building pixmaps using different visual classes distributed part sam leffler 's libtiff package also available export lcs mit edu , uunet uu net comp sources x decwrl dec com , 10 90 xtiff 2 0 announced 4 91 includes xlib xt versions version lee 's \( mcrcim mcgill edu \) image viewing tool available contrib 0 9 3 tar z export lcs mit edu package also includes widget widget 12 91 5 92 material larry carroll \( poe jpl nasa gov \) , 5 91 subject 28 \) change titlebar xterm window \? solution involves sending escape sequence xterm cause update property window manager relies upon string appears window titlebar solution easy typing xterm running shell echo esc 2 text g esc escape key , text string wish displayed , g control g \( bel character \) complicated csh alias changes titlebar current working directory change directories alias ! echo n esc 2 cwd g' digit strings indicates xterm change title window change title name used icon , use digit '0' instead , use change icon name note another way , prevents incorrect display local directory modified used , wrap escape sequences prompt note ibm rs 6000 may necessary begin sequence v subject 29 \) find xterm control sequences \? best source information r5 sources file ms postscript version mit hardcopy clients ps z o'reilly 's volume 3 , x user 's guide , includes r5 version control sequences standard volume available 3 93 , motif version book available current \( r4 \) guide includes outdated version control sequences 1 93 good sources information include r4 version document also file r4 sources called mit clients xterm txt , compilation put together skip montanaro \( ge cr \) listing vt100 sequences dates r3 fairly accurate hardcopy version published december 1989 xnextevent \( newsletter \) pinch , vt100 manual last updated 10 91 subject 30 \) r3 xterm , et al , fail r4 server \? subject 31 \) use characters ascii 127 xterm \? order use special characters , need stty also use iso8859 font , xterm font medium r normal 130 c iso8859 1 xterm bold r normal 130 c iso8859 1 family intentionally example addition , may want set shell setenv lc ctype iso 8859 1 given character 127 , determine key use alt modifier finding equivalent character 127 \( try using `man \) example , \( v \) alt v section character \( ' \) alt ' thanks greg \( greg uunet uu net \) stephen gildea \( gildea expo lcs mit edu \) 6 92 subject 32 \) xterm menus small \? probably setting geometry small accidentally give resource specification like xterm geometry asking widgets xterm geometry set main window , ok , uses characters size popup menus n't pixels show small set terminal widget specified geometry , name explicitly xterm vt100 geometry subject 33 \) print current selection \? could paste xterm executing lpr command however , program richard hesketh \( rlh2 ukc ac uk \) specifically manipulating selection help e g primary lpr finds primary selection prints command placed window manager menu shell scripts also permits setting selection properties version export also available ccs uwo ca pub selection tar z , adapted subject 34 \) xt use environment variables loading resources \? use several environment variables control resources loaded xt based programs xfilesearchpath , xuserfilesearchpath , xapplresdir environment variables control xt looks application defaults files application initializing xt loads one app defaults file path defined xfilesearchpath another path defined xuserfilesearchpath set xfilesearchpath software installed system way app defaults files appear several different directory hierarchies suppose , example , running sun 's open windows , also r4 x applications installed usr lib x11 app defaults could set value like xfilesearchpath , would cause xt look app defaults files usr lib x11 usr openwin lib \( wherever openwinhome located \) setenv xfilesearchpath usr lib x11 n openwinhome lib n value environment variable colon separated list pathnames pathnames contain replacement characters follows \( see xtresolvepathname \( \) \) n value filename parameter , application 's class name value file type case , literal string app defaults c customization resource \( r5 \) suffix none app defaults l language , locale , \( e g ja jp euc \) l language part l \( e g ja \) territory part display 's language string c part display 's language string let 's take apart example suppose application 's class name myterm also , suppose open windows installed usr openwin \( notice example omits locale specific lookup \) usr lib x11 n means usr lib x11 app defaults myterm openwinhome lib n means usr openwin lib app defaults myterm application , xt tries open app defaults files , order shown soon finds one , reads uses , stops looking others effect path search first usr lib x11 , usr openwin let 's consider another example time , let 's set xuserfilesearchpath looks file myterm ad current working directory , myterm directory app defaults setenv xuserfilesearchpath n ad home app defaults n first path list expands myterm ad second expands home app defaults myterm convenient setting debugging follows imake convention naming app defaults file myterm ad application 's source directory , run application directory working still resources loaded properly note looking app default files xuserfilesearchpath , bizarre reason , neither type file suffix defined useless r5 , 's another twist may specify customization resource value example , might run myterm application like myterm xrm customization color one pathname specifications value usr lib x11 n c expanded pathname would usr lib x11 app defaults myterm color c substitution character takes value customization resource default xfilesearchpath , compiled xt , usr lib x11 l n c \( r5 \) usr lib x11 l n c \( r5 \) usr lib x11 n c \( r5 \) usr lib x11 l n usr lib x11 l n usr lib x11 n \( note sites replace usr lib x11 projectroot batch default settings \) default xuserfilesearchpath , also compiled xt , root l n c \( r5 \) root l n c \( r5 \) root n c \( r5 \) root l n root l n root n root either value xapplresdir user 's home directory xapplresdir set set xuserfilesearchpath value default , xt ignores xapplresdir altogether notice quick dirty way making application find app defaults file current working directory set xapplresdir , single dot r3 , machinery worked differently r3 , many people set xapplresdir value , dot followed slash thanks oliver jones \( oj world std com \) 2 93 subject 35 \) r4 xdm put picture behind log window \? answer lies changing xdm 's xrdb resource xdm config file run program change background loading resources example , usr lib x11 xdm xdm config file may add line displaymanager 0 authorize false permit unrestricted access display log \( beware ! \) also displaymanager xrdb usr lib x11 xdm new xrdb file something \( connections \) along lines ! bin sh comes arguments display 0 load usr lib x11 xdm xresources usr bin x11 xsetroot display 2 bitmap usr lib x11 xdm new bitmap usr bin x11 xrdb substitute xloadimage xv xsetroot , taste note general hack used invoke console window client thanks jay \( stanford edu \) , 9 91 subject 36 \) n't path set xdm runs xsession file \? xdm runs xsession n't source cshrc login files set path explicitly normally could sh script place environment setting statements separate file source xsession file shell configuration file , set path cshrc file , normal place , make xsession path set simply making csh script , e starting xsession file ! bin csh n't work , also try starting ! bin sh reset path path c export path subject 37 \) keep display rlogin another machine \? several ways avoid setenv display whenever log another networked unix machine running x one solution use clients xrsh r5 contrib tape includes xrsh , script start x application remote machine , , script start local xterm running rlogin remote machine recent version export xrsh 5 4 shar one solution use program der mouse \( mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu \) ftp caveat emptor versions 132 206 1 1 , x c x c program packages term display single string , stuffed term rlogin term normally cshrc remote machine contain eval program checks term special format recognizes , spits setenv commands recreate environment variables 11 90 addition , need start remote x process another host , find rsh host n usr bin x11 xterm display display simple \( display must real hostname \) , version xrsh used start remote x processes equivalent usage would xrsh host xterm ! bin sh start x11 process another host date 8 dec 88 06 29 34 gmt chris chris mimsy umd edu rsh host n setenv display display exec dev null dev null improved version \( suggested john robinson , jr bbn com \) \( generalized sh , ksh keith , keith cis ohio state edu \) put \( \) 's left zombies script combines best case 01 \) echo usage 0 host x cmd args \) case shell csh \) host 1 shift xhost host dev null rsh host n setenv term xterm setenv display `hostname` 0 exec dev null dev null sh \) host 1 shift xhost host dev null rsh host n term xterm export term display `hostname` 0 export display ld library path usr x11 lib export ld library path path path usr x11 bin usr bin x11 usr local bin export path exec dev null dev null 2 1 esac esac subject 38 \) design font \? one way use bitmap client bitmap editor \( e g sun 's icon editor tool , post processed pbmplus \) design individual characters large amount post processing bdf format see ollie jones 's article november 91 x journal information r3 contrib area \( fonts utils clients \) contained number useful utilities , including convert bdf font format simple character format edited text editor easier way use client modify existing font version r4 r5 x11r5 contrib tape contrib clients available anonymous ftp ftp informatik uni dortmund de 129 217 64 63 , possibly file pub windows x diverse x11 tar z produce bdf format fonts compiled variety x servers client group bull permits creation bitmaps , cursors , pixmaps , fonts binaries common machines avahi inria fr pub addition , sources \( old xlib implementation \) placed 5 91 export contrib user use distribution convert pk , gf , fonts bdf format distribution ftp cs colorado edu export lcs mit edu gnu package 0 4 tar z prep ai mit edu includes , font editor , number utilities font formats o'reilly x resource issue 2 contains article using tools modify font fonts resized 's new version ftp cs ac jp x11 contrib subject 39 \) adding font server work \( sic \) \? built font using system 's font compiler , installed directory , run system 's equivalent \( e g openwindows \) directory , sure use fp add full path name server 's font path , directory already path , use fp new fonts directory actually found last step 're probably leaving \( also use make sure directory path \) sometimes xset fp dir command fails error x error failed request \( integer parameter range operation \) major opcode failed request 51 \( x \) means x server cannot find read font directory , directory look like font directory server \( mention integer parameter message spurious \) font directory 're specifying readable server 's file system \? remember , 's server , client , interprets font directory trouble area especially likely issue xset command shell \( e g xset fp \) server x terminal managed xdm directory really font directory \? 're running mit server \( varieties vendor servers \) look directory file fonts dir ca n't find file , run mkfontdir \( 1 \) \( 're running openwindows , look file families list ca n't find , run \( 1 \) \) 're site people run servers others run proprietary server nonstandard font formats \( openwindows , example \) , make sure font directory right server 're using hint directory contains pcf snf files , wo n't work open windows directory contains ff fb files , wo n't work thanks der mouse \( mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu \) oliver jones \( oj pictel com \) 7 92 subject 40 \) convert snf font back bdf font \? tool called 1 4 part package , available export lcs mit edu contrib tar z crl nmsu edu pub misc tar z 2 91 subject 41 \) general method getting font usable format \? der mouse 's getbdf one solution connects server produces bdf file font server willing let used anything bdf converter , requires access server understand font file , thus less powerful tools getbdf 132 206 1 1 x getbdf c available via mail mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu 5 91 addition , r5 program produce bdf font r5 server access subject 42 \) use decwindows fonts non decwindows server \? decwindows fonts typically n't exist non dec installation , rewrite rules used alias fonts used decwindows applications standard mit fonts similar characteristics size pick file contrib decwindows x11r4 font aliases export lcs mit edu file standard mit r4 server also serve starting point creating similar aliases file open windows server servers use mit font scheme subject 43 \) add bdf fonts decwindows server \? format fonts preferred dec 's x server pcf format produce compiled format bdf format using dec 's font compiler note dec servers also use raw bdf fonts , performance hit subject 44 \) ! set backgroundpixmap defaults file \? \( xpm \? \) want able something like xclock backgroundpixmap usr include x11 bitmaps ca n't backgroundpixmap resource pixmap depth screen , bitmap \( pixmap depth 1 \) , writing generic string pixmap converter impossible , since accepted convention file format pixmaps therefore , neither x toolkit athena widget set define string pixmap converter , converter cannot specify value resource athena widget set define string bitmap converter use many widgets , however courtesy chris peterson \( kit ics com \) , 4 90 however specific converter much functionality xloadimage package jim frost posted 12 90 sebastian \( unido informatik uni dortmund de \) permits loading number image formats pixmap leading general purpose format pixmaps xpm format used groupe bull several programs , including gwm window manager , editor , ics interface builder xpm distribution , available export contrib xpm tar z , includes read write routines easily adapted converters new widgets want allow specification pixmap resources manner see information xpm talk mailing list xpm 3 0f announced 3 93 available export lcs mit edu avahi inria fr older version r5 contrib tape set xpm icons collected anthony thyssen \( anthony cit gu edu au \) export contrib subject 45 \) ca n't override translations \? first item works probably extra space specification first item , like basic text translations override ctrl key beginning line \( \) n ctrl key e end line \( \) extra space newline space ending translation definition thanks timothy j horton , 5 91 subject 46 \) xclock oclock show different \? one solution , volume 6 comp sources x , show time local one alternatively , probably set shell invoke xclock oclock , use script similar ! bin sh tz xclock name san luis obispo ca 2 dev null tz xclock name king pa 2 dev null subject 47 \) xmh , n't work get mh \? xmh mail reader requires rand mh mail message handling system , part unix software distribution many machines list various ftp , uucp , e mail us mail sites xmh mh given monthly mh faq one source ics uci edu file pub mh mh 6 7 tar z receive comp mail mh newsgroup mh users mailing list , request copy faq , also includes section xmh , sending mail mail server pit manager mit edu containing request send usenet news answers mh faq subject 48 \) suddenly unable connect sun x server \? seemingly random amount time x server started , clients able connect default cleanup jobs supplied sun \( 4 0 3 , least \) delete old \( \) files tmp including tmp x11 unix , contains socket descriptor used x solution add ! type find exclusion job 10 90 subject 49 \) n't r5 pex demos work mono screen \? r5 sample server implementation works color screens , sorry subject 50 \) ! get sun type 45 keyboard fully supported xsun \? many users wants num lock key light num lock led appropriate effect numeric keypad xsun server distributed mit n't two different patches available first patch written jonathan lemon fixes num lock related problems available export lcs mit edu file contrib xsun r5 numlock patch z second written martin fixes num lock compose keys adds support different national keyboard layouts type 4 type 5 keyboards patch available export lcs mit edu contrib tar z via email maf dtek chalmers se thanks martin \( maf dtek chalmers se maf math chalmers se \) , 8 92 set patches william bailey \( arco com \) posted newsgroups 11 92 provide support type 5 keyboard subject 51 \) report bugs x \? generally , report bugs find organization supplied x window system received r5 source distribution directly mit , please read file mit bug report instructions look mit doc bugs bug report r4 thanks stephen gildea gildea expo lcs mit edu , 5 91 12 91 subject 52 \) get warning widget class version mismatch \? error , typically goes say , widget vs intrinsics indicates header files included building program n't match header files xt library 're linking built check include path l link path sure however , problem also occurs linking version x11r4 xt library patch 10 version number wrong sun ow systems , particular , shipped flawed version library , applications link library typically give warnings seen subject 53 \) find dictionary server xwebster \? webster 's still owns copyright line copies webster 's dictionary found various \( university \) sites became aware sites acting servers sites running xwebster webster , asked server sites close external access next machine apparently also licensed dictionary webster daemon next machines available cs indiana edu \( 129 79 254 192 \) pub webster next 2 0 unless want get legal line copy find site grant access , probably luck however , legitimate site , 'll want pick latest xwebster , export contrib xwebster tar z 10 91 file xwebster readme includes discussions availability , illegality , non availability dictionary servers courtesy steve umiacs umd edu \( steve miller \) mayer hplabs hp com \( niels mayer \) 11 90 subject 54 \) topic obtaining x related software hardware subject 55 \) x public domain software \? x software copyrighted various institutions public domain , specific legal meaning however , x distribution available free redistributed without fee contributed software , though , may placed public domain individual authors subject 56 \) compatible x11r3 , r4 , r5 \? changes \? release notes mit release x11 specify changes previous release x consortium tries hard maintain compatibility across releases places incompatible changes necessary , details given release notes x11 distribution site network also offers release notes go release offer file typically found top distribution tree stephen gildea , 1 92 comp windows x intrinsics faq xt lists xt differences among versions subject 57 \) ! get x11r5 \( source binaries \) \? information mit 's distribution sources qic 24 tape distribution hardcopy documents available software center , technology licensing office , massachusetts institute technology , 28 carleton street , room 300 , cambridge 02142 , phone 617 258 8330 need 100mb disk space hold core hold contrib software donated individuals companies please use site close network note release notes generally available separately directory notes list changes previous versions x offer guide distribution north america anonymous ftp california gatekeeper dec com pub x11 r5 16 1 0 2 california soda berkeley edu pub x11r5 128 32 131 179 indiana cs purdue edu pub x11 r5 128 10 2 2 maryland ftp brl mil pub x11r5 128 63 16 158 \( good milnet sites \) massachusetts crl dec com pub x11 r5 192 58 206 2 massachusetts export lcs mit edu pub r5 18 24 0 12 \( crl dec com better \) michigan merit edu pub x11r5 35 1 1 42 missouri wuarchive wustl edu packages x11r5 128 252 135 4 montana ftp cs montana edu pub x v11r5 192 31 215 202 new mexico pprg eece unm edu pub dist x11r5 129 24 24 10 new york azure acsu buffalo edu pub x11r5 128 205 7 6 north carolina cs duke edu dist sources x11r5 128 109 140 1 ohio ftp cis ohio state edu pub x v11r5 128 146 8 52 ontario ftp cs utoronto ca pub x11r5 128 100 1 105 washington dc x11r5 uu net x r5 192 48 96 12 washington dc x11r5 b uu net x r5 137 39 1 12 europe middle east australia anonymous ftp australia munnari oz au x r5 128 250 1 21 denmark diku dk pub x11r5 129 142 96 1 united kingdom src doc ic ac uk graphics x v11r5 146 169 3 7 mcc ac uk pub x11r5 130 88 200 7 finland nic funet fi pub x11 r5 128 214 6 100 france inria fr x x11r5 128 93 1 26 germany ftp germany eu net pub x11 x11r5 192 76 144 129 israel cs huji ac il pub x11r5 132 65 6 5 italy ghost sm dsi unimi pub x11r5 149 132 2 1 netherlands archive eu net windows x r5 192 16 202 1 norway ugle unit pub x11r5 129 241 1 97 norway nac pub x11r5 129 240 2 40 switzerland nic switch ch software x11r5 130 59 1 40 japan anonymous ftp sh wide ad jp x11r5 133 4 11 11 ftp ics u ac jp x11r5 133 1 12 30 wide ad jp x11r5 133 4 14 3 u tokyo ac jp x11r5 133 11 11 11 tokyo kerr co jp x11r5 133 235 128 1 tokyo sony co jp pub x11r5 133 138 199 1 uucp uunet uunet customers x r5 decwrl existing neighbors pub x11 r5 osu cis x v11r5 \( online 9 sept \) utai existing neighbors ftp pub x11r5 netherlands uucp pub windows x r5 nfs missouri wuarchive wustl edu archive packages x11r5 128 252 135 4 mount point archive afs pennsylvania afs grand central org pub x11r5 \( , , , \) united kingdom uk ac ic doc src x v11r5 user guest anon united kingdom \( janet \) x v11r5 146 169 3 7 \( internet \) \( ixi \) australia munnari oz \( \) x r5 please fetch one file time , checking copy available closer site 9 2 91 updated contrib 10 91 anyone europe get copy mit x v11r5 distribution , including core contributed software official patches , free charge requirement agree return tapes , equivalent new tapes qic tk format cartridges provided contact jamie watson , ag , 104 , , switzerland tel 41 31 961 35 70 41 62 61 41 21 fax 41 62 61 41 30 jw ch uk sites obtain x11 software distribution service , department computing , imperial college , london , several tape formats may also obtain source via janet \( therefore pss \) using \( host uk ac ic doc src name guest password email address \) queries directed lee , 071 589 5111 , info server doc ic ac uk soft uk ac ic doc \( send subject line wanted also offered copies comp sources x , export lcs mit edu contrib doc areas announced freely distributable packages x11r5 x11r4 source along x11r5 contrib code , x binaries major platforms , source code examples o'reilly 's books available iso format cd rom o'reilly associates 3 92 x11r5 source available iso format cd rom members japan unix society , dec com x11r5 source along gnu source , comp sources x archives , sparc binaries available iso format cd rom software , 510 947 \( robert bruce , rab sprite berkeley edu \) x11r5 source available design associates , 1 215 646 various users' groups \( e g sug \) offer x sources cheaply , typically cd rom source andrew user interface system 5 1 binaries common systems available cd rom information info andrew requests andrew cmu edu , 412 268 6710 , fax 412 621 binaries x11r5 , shared libx11 libxmu , ux 2 0 1 available wuarchive wustl edu archive systems aux x11r5 patches x11r5 compiled gcc \( shared libraries \) also available john l coolidge \( coolidge cs uiuc edu , 10 91 \) binaries rich kaul \( kaul ee eng ohio state edu \) sun386i running sunos 4 0 2 available dsinc dsi com \( please hours usa est \) binaries sun386i available compaq com \( 131 168 249 254 \) pub sun 386i sources cs uwm edu \( 129 89 9 117 \) binary tree next douglas scott \( doug foxtrot ucsb edu \) foxtrot ucsb edu missing server , though binaries sun386i cs uwm edu sun386i binaries hp pa cv hp com \( 15 255 72 15 \) source binaries hp ux 8 9 0 \( 400 700 800 \) domain 10 4 \( , dn 10k \) available users group contact carol 508 436 , fax 508 256 , c apollo hp com patches x11r5 solaris 2 1 casper h dik \( casper fwi uva nl \) et al export contrib r5 sunos5 patch tar z , r5 sunos5 patch readme patches x11r5 sun type 5 keyboard keyboard numlock available william bailey \( arco com \) also binaries available unipalm \( 44 954 , unipalm co uk \) , probably sun platforms david b lewis faq craft uunet uu net faqs , ma'am joe friday david b lewis temporarily speaking visual , inc day dbl visual com evening david craft uunet uu net
duvvuri cs odu edu \( v prakash \) subject pointer cursor article cs 1993apr6 2339 organization old dominion university , norfolk , va lines 25 nntp posting host cs odu edu hi trying implement pointer feature xlib multiple windows take input show output simultaneously displays want implement pointer feature would like get pointer come windows choose pointer menu every one able see give hints proceed new xlib replies greatly appreciated thank prakash duvvuri cs odu edu
westford ccur com \( karen \) subject lost \( color \) space article westford 1993apr6 organization concurrent computer corp westford , lines 33 \( please respond via email ! \) anybody actually seen tek color space stuff working \? i'm luck either editor export lcs mit edu o'reilly 's ftp able example ftp uu net o'reilly example fails almost every set inputs returns smaller value \( makes sense \) editor fails , apparently mathematical manipulations color specs results invalid values ca n't actually edit colors x11 r5 patch level 22 8 bit pseudocolor visual 've poked around code xlib , without understanding theory idea 's going wrong somebody confirm either mentioned programs work systems , let know fail \? please include hardware software patch levels hints \? please respond email n't regularly read group thanks , karen karen concurrent computer corporation westford ccur com
dbl visual com \( david b lewis \) subject comp windows x frequently asked questions \( faq \) 3 5 summary useful information x window system reply faq craft uunet uu net \( x faq maintenance address \) organization visual , inc expires sun , 2 may 1993 00 00 00 gmt lines 998 archive name x faq part3 last modified 1993 04 04 subject 58 \) ! get patches x11r5 \? release new public patches mit x consortium announced comp windows x announce newsgroup patches available via ftp export sites x11 available also distributed newsgroup comp sources x source sellers may including patches source distributions x11 people without ftp access use xstuff mail server 23 patches x11r5 3 93 send xstuff expo lcs mit edu subject line send fixes name patch usually number patch complications 1 \) fix 5 four parts need request 5a , 5b , 5c 5d separately 2 \) file uu , part earlier patch , released patch 7 note file n't work solaris 3 \) fix 8 two parts 8a 8b 4 \) fix 13 three parts , , 5 \) fix 16 two parts 6 \) fix 18 replaces x test suite , previously optional 7 \) fix 19 also needs pexlib tar z , obtain xstuff asking pexlib uu 8 \) fix 22 9 parts , subject 59 \) xstuff mail archive \? xstuff server mail response program means mail request , mails back response four possible commands must first word line xstuff server reads entire message anything , several different commands single message \( unless ask help \) xstuff server treats subject header line like line message archives organized series directories subdirectories directory index , subdirectory index top level index gives overview subdirectories , index subdirectory tells 1 \) command help send help causes server send detailed version help file 2 \) message contains line whose first word index , server send top level index contents archive words line match name subdirectories , indexes subdirectories sent instead top level index example , say send index fixes \( index fixes \) message requests index cannot request data 3 \) message contains line whose first word send , xstuff server send item \( \) named rest line name item , give directory name example send fixes 1 4 8a 8b 9 may issue multiple send requests xstuff server contains many safeguards ensure people asking large amounts data mailer set send fixed amount data day work queue contains requests day 's quota , files processed next day whenever mailer run send day 's quota , sends requests shortest first 4 \) mailers produce mail headers unusable extracting return addresses use mailer , wo n't get response happen know explicit path , include line like path foo bar bitnet mit edu path bar ! foo ! body message , daemon use xstuff server reached xstuff expo lcs mit edu mailer deals ! notation , try sending someplace ! mit eddie ! expo lcs mit edu ! xstuff based information mit x consortium , 8 89 , 4 90 subject 60 \) ! get x11r4 \( source binaries \) \? integrated computer solutions , inc , ships x11r4 half inch , quarter inch , formats call 617 621 0060 ordering information free software foundation \( 617 876 3296 \) sells x11r4 half inch tapes qic 24 cartridges \( math cs kent edu p box 1301 , kent , oh \) making x11r4 available hp format tapes , 16 track , sun cartridges 2 90 european sites obtain free x11r4 distribution jamie watson , may reached ! pan ! jw jw pan uu ch 10 90 non standard \( 33 \( 1 \) 43 36 77 50 requests nsl fr \) makes source available ixi limited \( 44 223 462 131 \) selling x11r4 source quarter inch cartridge formats 5 25 3 5 floppy , formats available request ixi , 2 90 virtual technologies \( 703 430 \) provides entire x11r4 compressed source release single qic 24 quarter inch cartridge also 1 2meg 1 44 meg floppies upon request conor \( uu net \) 2 90 young minds \( 714 335 1350 \) makes r4 gnu distributions available full text indexed cd rom note distributions media include docs x11r4 ftp able export lcs mit edu sites preferable , though , direct machine internet ftp location name address directory \( 1 \) west usa gatekeeper dec com 16 1 0 2 pub x11 r4 central usa cs purdue edu 128 10 2 2 pub x11 r4 \( 2 \) central usa giza cis ohio state edu 128 146 8 61 pub x southeast usa uunet uu net 192 48 96 2 x r4 \( 3 \) northeast usa crl dec com 192 58 206 2 pub x11 r4 \( 4 \) uk janet src doc ic ac uk 129 31 81 36 x uk uk ac ic doc src \( 5 \) australia munnari oz au 128 250 1 21 x r4 giza cis ohio state edu site , particular , known much contrib stuff found export release available dec sites crl pub x11 r4 sites australia may contact address ftp adelaide edu au 129 127 40 3 check directory pub x r4 machine shadows export archives comp sources x \( mark prior , ucs adelaide edu au , 5 90 \) note much complete list distributed part introductory postings comp sources x set x11r4 binaries built tom roell \( roell informatik tu muenchen de \) 386 ix available export lcs mit edu contrib pub i386 x11r4 131 159 8 35 europe stephen hite \( unf edu \) also distribute folks without ftp facilities via disks sent sase contact usmail shipping details 12 90 addition , binaries available via uucp 1 408 739 , tb \( pep \) sword usr2 bbs x addition , source zok i386 2 91 addition , us , latest svr4 binary \( april 15 \) , patches , fonts available piggy ucsb edu \( 128 111 72 50 \) directory pub x386 , filenames \( please use 6pm pacific , large files \) 5 91 set hp 9000 800 binaries available cv hp com \( 15 255 72 15 \) ftp pub libs z 2 91 set x11r4 binaries next 2 x made available kaye cunixf cc columbia edu set binaries john coolidge \( coolidge cs uiuc edu \) mac running ux 2 0 available wuarchive wustl edu file \( archive systems aux x11r4 tar z \) also x11r4 diffs set patches making x11r4 shared libraries complete distribution sco x11r4 binaries baruch \( blue technion ac il \) found uunet server roell 's x386 1 1b , compiled et4000 based svga boards subject 61 \) get osf motif \? obtain either osf motif source binaries number vendors motif 1 2 2 source available based x11r5 motif 1 1 based r4 18 intrinsics currently 7 92 1 1 5 osf motif source license must obtained osf source obtained open software foundation value added vendor version call direct channels desk osf 617 621 7300 ordering information various hardware vendors produce developer 's toolkits binaries , header files , documentation check hardware vendor , particularly vendor osf member addition , independent binary vendors produce motif toolkits machines motif supported vendor kits include varied levels bug fixing support shared libraries based widely divergent version motif quest \( 408 988 \) sells kits suns , well ixi \( 44 223 462 131 \) offers kits sun3 sun4 nsl \( 33 \( 1 \) 43 36 77 50 requests nsl fr \) offers kits sun 3 sun 4 consulting makes kit sun systems ics \( 617 62 0060 \) makes several binary kits , notably sun , dec hp dec announced support motif sun systems unipalm \( 44 954 211 797 \) currently offers sun systems motif development kit including x11r4 based motif 1 1 2 us distributor expert object corp \( 708 926 8500 \) bim ships motif 1 1 binaries suns shared library support included contact alain \( av sunbim \) danny backx \( db sunbim \) 32 \( 2 \) 759 59 25 \( fax 32 \( 2 \) 759 47 95 \) \( belgium \) \( 33 61 57 95 95 \) ships motif 1 2 motif 1 1 sun machines systems offers motif 1 2 solaris 2 1 info 1 800 755 usa canada metro link inc \( 305 970 7353 , sales metrolink com europe contact , \( 33 1 \) , \( uk \) ltd \( 44 \) 628 82 22 81 \) ships implementation x11r4 motif 1 1 2 \( including shared library implementation \) 386 486 unix market motif 1 1 2 also available sun sparc based workstations also announced motif 1 2 solaris systems subject 62 \) motif work x11r4 \? x11r5 \? motif 1 2 based x11r5 motif 1 1 , available source form osf august 1990 , uses vanilla x11r4 intrinsics , vanilla means patches file fix osf osf distributes obsoleted mit 's patches 15 17 file fix osf 1 1 1 distributed 1 1 1 version subsequent modification needs applied mit fix 18 , though motif 1 1 1 1 1 3 work x11r5 x11r5 compiled 1 1 4 later work vanilla r5 , although known new geometry management problems subject 63 \) get toolkits implementing open look \? sun 's xview sunview style api version x11r4 tape latest 2 92 3 0 sources export contrib xview3 xview x binaries sun 386i \( roadrunner \) available ftp win tue nl \( 131 155 70 70 \) , directory pub x11r4 386i supported binaries xview 2 0 3 0 include xview non sun platforms \( domestic selected international vendors \) several also available sun contact local sales office amiga gfxbase , inc 1881 drive \( amigados \) \( 408 \) 262 1469 milpitas , ca fax \( 408 \) 262 sgi sony \( news os \) ibm rs 6000 hp 9000 decstation software lincoln highway \( ultrix \) \( 908 \) 985 8000 edison , nj fax \( 908 \) 287 software , ltd po box 70 44 624 661 8850 viking house fax 44 624 663 453 nelson street douglas , isle man united kingdom dec tgv 603 mission street \( vms \) \( 800 \) tgv santa cruz , ca 95060 \( 408 \) 427 4366 fax \( 408 \) 427 unipalm ltd 145 147 st road 44 hardwick fax 44 cambridge cb3 england intel 386 quarterdeck office 150 boulevard \( dos \) systems santa monica , ca 90405 \( 213 \) 392 fax \( 213 \) 399 intel 386 sunsoft corporation center drive west \( interactive 310 348 suite 700 unix los angeles , ca sco unix \) stardent scripps institute clinic mb 5 \( os fax \( 619 \) 554 n torrey pines road titan os \) include mailstop mb 5 la jolla , ca ftp 192 42 82 8 pub binary xview readme , xview tar z 's open look gui 3 0 xt based toolkit generally available 2 92 contact 1 800 828 unix 544 information binaries produced sparc systems international quest corporation \( 408 988 \) version toolkit also produced name olit sun recent versions olit ported ibm 6000 dec mips ics olit also available hp consulting \( 908 873 \) mjm \( somerset , nj \) makes olit 4 0 hp 7xx series running hpux 8 0 , decstations , rs thanks , jo att com , 908 522 sun shipping openwindows 3 0 contact local sales representative details package includes toolkit binaries header files parcplace 's \( formerly solbourne 's \) extensible c based object interface library , supports run time selection open look motif , available 303 678 5 92 subject 64 \) ! get x sources \? \( including r5 modifications \) mit software center ships x test suite tape multi threaded version xlib based x11r5 patch 12 available anonymous ftp \( new version 1 93 \) dec gatekeeper dec com \( 16 1 0 2 \) pub x11 contrib mt xlib 1 1 mit export lcs mit edu \( 18 24 0 12 \) contrib mt xlib 1 1 hp made available drivers permit building x11r5 sample server hp 9000 series 700 workstations files export lcs mit edu ftp contrib r5 hp srv 8 92 user contributed software distributed newsgroup comp sources x , moderated chris olson \( chris sterling com \) also check group posting information richard hesketh \( rlh2 ukc ac uk \) creating list freely available x sources list stored export lcs mit edu contrib x source list z lists main storage locations program international sites may ftp'ed machine export lcs mit edu great deal user contributed software contrib directory good deal present current earlier versions x11r3 , x11r4 , x11r5 contrib tapes also directories fixes contrib software file export contrib 00 index txt quick overall index software area , provided daniel \( uiuc edu \) sites used may still mirror export particular use anonymous ftp ftp adelaide edu au sirius ua oz material giza cis ohio state edu , tends duplicate export archives , also available via anonymous uucp osu cis , tb v 32 speeds write uucp cis ohio state edu \( osu cis ! uucp \) instructions archive maintained karl kleinpaste new west coast uucp x11 archive administered mark \( mark zok uucp \) contains full x11 distribution , distribution , entire archive comp sources x goodies machine zok tb modem connect 19 2k , 2400 , 1200 baud \( order \) anonymous uucp account password modem 's phone number 408 996 sample systems \( l sys \) entry might zok word get current listing files available , download file ls lr z full subject index comp sources x files available file comp sources x index machine one modem , please fetch large amounts data one sitting courtesy mark , 2 90 addition , uunet source archives \( 703 876 \) tracks comp sources x provides compressed programs tapes 1 4 tapes also mirrors export contrib packages x directory subject 65 \) ! get interesting widgets \? free widget foundation \( fwf \) library sponsored brian \( cs uiuc edu \) 2 93 available cs uiuc edu \( 128 174 252 1 \) pub fwf v3 41 shar z set widgets intended form basis future contributions added discussion list , send listserv cs uiuc edu message saying subscribe full name one free widgets announce , free widgets development , free widgets bugs version 3 4 current look 4 0 4 93 xew widget set contains widgets data representation version 1 2 4 93 export contrib xew 1 2 tar z peter ware 's xo open widget set , motif like functionality , archive cis ohio state edu pub xo xo 2 1 tar z 8 92 plotter widget set version 6 beta 7 92 maintained peter \( iat uni paderborn de \) includes many graph plotting widgets copy export plotter tar z , plotter doc tar z , plotter afm tar z , plotter readme latest versions may fact ftp uni paderborn de \( 131 234 2 32 \) unix tools advance version marc 's motif port fwf widget ftp dgac fr pub tar z 143 196 9 31 additional widgets available contrib portion x11r4 tapes include xcu set paul johnston 's \( johnston jpl nasa gov \) x control panel widget set emulates hardware counterparts sources export lcs mit edu xc 1 3 tar z o'reilly volume 4 , doug young 's book , asente swick book , jerry smith 's object oriented programming x window system toolkits include details writing widgets include several useful widgets sources typically export uunet dirt interface builder includes set extends functionality xaw graph widget 2d plot 3d contour widgets sundar \( sundar ai mit edu \) available ftp ai mit edu com ftp pub users sundar graph tar z graph widget updated 3 91 documentation histogram capabilities graph widget available ftp dgac fr pub graph tar z uses segment list drawing hence supports zoom operation ken lee 's xm widget \( demo \) uses display postscript draw labels non horizontal angle export contrib tar z table widget \( works like troff tbl tables \) available several flavors , one widget creation library release bell communications research developed matrix widget complex application layouts 's export contrib widgets 3 8 tar z 2 93 distribution also includes caption widget associate labels particular gui components \( 7 92 \) dan 's \( convex com \) interprets rtf data 's export contrib 1 1 tar z xmgraph motif based graphing widget ecn uiowa edu comp hp gui classic xmgraph tar z although may stable tex style layout widget keith packard described proceedings 7th mit technical conference \( o'reilly x resource volume 5 \) source available export contrib layout tar z version lee 's \( mcrcim mcgill edu \) image viewing tool available contrib 0 9 3 tar z export lcs mit edu package also includes widget widget 12 91 5 92 addition , pext toolkit rich thomson \( rthomson dsd es com \) available export pext tar z includes pex widget making easier use pex xt based programs motif port xaw clock widget ftp dgac fr pub clock tar z modification xaw scrollbar widget supports style toolkits export contrib xaw scrollbar mta z beta 0 3 \( 11 92 \) release r5 xaw widgets 3d visual appearance kaleb keithley \( kaleb jpl nasa gov \) available export contrib xaw3d r5 xaw3d 0 3 tar z library , binary compatible mit xaw , implements 3d subclass handles extra drawing also motif tools , systems 's shareware library 9 widgets many convenience functions , available export lcs mit edu contrib ftp ora com pub readme 1 0 tar z xtra set includes widgets pie bar charts , xy plots , help , spreadsheets , data entry forms , line bar graphs contact graphical software technology 310 328 \( info gst com \) information xrt graph widget , available motif , xview olit , displays x plots , bar pie charts , supports user feedback , fast updates postscript output contact kl group inc 416 594 1026 \( info klg com \) set data entry widgets motif available software , 713 467 \( world std com \) set graph widgets available expert database systems \( 212 370 6700 \) set osf motif compound widgets support routines 2d visualization available ms lee , national computer board , republic singapore tel \( 65 \) fax \( 65 \) iti gov sg , bitnet ics widget databook includes variety control widgets special purpose widgets , available variety platforms information 617 621 0060 , info ics com information graphing tools may obtained info com \( 1 510 848 , fax 1 510 848 \) subject 66 \) get good file selector widget \? free widget foundation set offers widget , separate directory path file listing windows , , emacs style file completion expansion available file widgets include iris software 's book , xdbx file selector extracted david \( daven wpi wpi edu \) , axe distribution ghostview , xfig , packages also include file selector widgets subject 67 \) widget appropriate use drawing canvas \? widget sets widget particularly purpose workspace n't display anything lets xt application know exposed , resized , received user key mouse input best thing widget sets including athena set create obtain widget preferable drawing core widget grabbing events xtaddeventhandler \( \) , loses number benefits xt encapsulation functionality least one version posted comp sources x \( name \? \? \? \) publicly available programs xpic include versions athena widget manual \( mit doc xaw template r5 distribution \) includes tutorial source code simple widget suitable use free widget foundation set contains canvas widget subject 68 \) current state world x terminals \? jim morton \( jim applix com \) posts quarterly comp windows x list manufacturers terminals includes pricing information notable buyers guide surveys include september 1991 issue systems integration subject 69 \) get x server \? labtam \( 61 3 587 1444 , fax 61 3 580 \) offers 19 surface acoustic wave touch screen option terminals tektronix \( 1 800 225 \) provides x terminal touch screen terminal may also trident systems \( 703 273 \) metro link \( 305 970 7353 \) supports serial touch screen controllers subject 70 \) get x server pc \( dos unix \) \? mit x11r5 already provides server many 386 486 support many popular video graphics adapters non msdos pcs obtain server sources xfree86 \( formerly x386 1 2e \) enhanced version x386 1 2 , distributed x11r5 includes many bug fixes , speed improvements , enhancements source version 1 2 2 93 export lcs mit edu pub contrib , ftp physics su oz au x386 , ftp win tue nl pub x386 addition , binaries ftp physics su oz au , ftp win tue nl among systems info x386 physics su oz au note package obsoletes glenn lai 's speedup patches enhanced x11r5 server 386 et4000 boards \( speedup tar z export \) metro link inc \( 305 970 7353 , sales metrolink com europe contact , \( 33 1 \) \) ships implementation x11r4 386 486 unix market sgcs offers x386 version 1 3 , based thomas roell 's x11r5 two headed server , binary source form information 408 255 , info sgcs com isc , sco , uhc , well known operating system vendors typically offer x servers msdos pcs daniel j mccoy \( mccoy gothamcity jsc nasa gov \) started posting monthly list non unix servers pcs , macs , amigas includes pricing information current copy kept export contrib xservers nonunix txt z article pc x servers appears march 2 , 1992 open systems today also possible use net \( 212 809 \) enables communication among dos , os 2 unix machines used display pc sessions unix x display subject 71 \) get x server macintosh running \? exodus white pine software \( 603 886 \) runs mac least 1mb memory runs x server within standard macintosh window version 3 0 6 91 supports x mac windows adsp protocol version supports shape extension includes decwindows support apple 's macx runs macplus newer machines 2mb memory system software 6 0 4 later version 1 1 fully x11r4 based supports full icccm compatible cut paste text graphics macintosh x11 worlds , shape extension \( including shaped windows macintosh desktop \) , optional built icccm compliant window manager , x11r4 fonts colors , built bdf font compiler , built standard colormaps upgrades macx available ftp aux support apple com info 408 996 1010 note macx also name vax mac transfer utility also liken \( 1 800 245 unix info qualix com \) software enables monochrome 68000 mac applications run sparc system running x xport \( 1 800 245 unix \( 415 572 0200 \) xport qualix com \) enables mac applications display x based workstation turning mac x client intercon product called planet x enables mac applications display x server subject 72 \) get x amiga \? new amiga 3000 machines offer x server open look tools libraries full svr4 implementation gfxbase , inc provides x11 r4 1 amigados computer contains x11r4 clients , fonts , etc , release 4 color server optional programmer 's toolkit includes header files , libraries , sample programs info gfxbase , 408 262 1469 dale luck \( uunet ! cbmvax pyramid ! ! dale \) 2 91 subject 73 \) get fast x server workstation \? r5 server among fastest available machines sun sells direct xlib product improves rendering applications running machine x server replacement xlib library accesses graphics hardware directly using sun 's direct graphics access \( \) technology international quest corporation \( 408 988 \) optimized r4 server sun3 4 sunos 4 0 unipalm r4 servers sun3 sparc platforms use graphics hardware run sunview information 44 954 unipalm co uk xgraph 's \( 408 492 \) x server implemented sunview boasts impressive results sun 3 sparc systems 6 90 several companies making hardware accellerator boards dupont pixel systems \( 302 992 \) , sun megatek 's \( 619 455 \) x board sun 3 sun 4 based ti company claims performance improvements 5x 10x sample x11r3 server subject 74 \) ! get server high end sun graphics board \? \( laboratory , etl go jp \) modified mit x11r5 server support sun cg8 , , boards files export contrib 3 01 tar z note files necessary build 3 1 jpl r5 xsun multi screen server general purpose replacement mit server ddx sun layer provides screen split among several monitors implements several features mit implementation available export lcs mit edu file contrib r5 xsun multi screen tar z kaleb keithley , kaleb jpl nasa gov , 12 91 file updated 24 mar 1993 subject 75 \) get x terminal server low end sun 3 50 \? seth robertson \( seth ctr columbia edu \) written xkernel current version 1 4 8 91 , 2 0 expected rsn sol ctr columbia edu 128 59 64 40 pub xkernel gamma turns sun 3 50 pseudo x terminal overhead operating system side stepped , fairly fast needs little disk space similar approach run regular x server making etc init shell script minimal setup invokes xsun , like example script mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu ! bin sh exec dev console 2 1 etc p dev case \? 0 \) 4 \) etc reboot q n 8 \) echo nd failed get help etc halt 12 \) echo interrupted etc reboot \) echo unknown error reboot get help etc halt esac bin dd tmp fs dev bs 512 count 128 dev null 2 1 etc mount dev tmp etc 255 255 255 0 broadcast 132 206 41 255 etc mount ro apollo u2 x11 lib local lib x11 etc route add default 132 206 41 1 1 dev null set ` etc exec xsun query ` \( sh vn local lib x11 xdm servers 2 2 1 \) ` subject 76 \) terminal emulators xterm available \? pcs rewritten xterm scratch using multi widget approach used applications version r5 contrib tape export contrib emu tar z 10 91 information , contact dude pcs com , motif based xterm available ftp server ftp uni paderborn de \( 131 234 2 32 \) , file unix x11 contrib tar z color terminal widget provides ansi terminal emulation compatible series version export contrib 1 1 tar z motif version ftp dgac fr pub term 1 0 tar z kterm 4 1 2 x11r4 based vt100 \( tektronix \) terminal emulator supports display chinese , japanese , korean text \( vt mode \) also supported ansi color sequences , multi byte word selection , limited compound text support , tab newline preservation selections kterm 4 1 2 also available anonymous ftp sites clr nmsu edu pub misc kterm 4 1 2 tar z 128 123 1 14 export lcs mit edu contrib kterm 4 1 2 tar z 18 24 0 12 kaist ac kr pub unix kterm 4 1 2 tar z 137 68 1 65 courtesy mark nmsu edu kterm 5 1 1 tar z export 12 92 mterm , mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu , x terminal emulator includes ansi x3 64 dec emulation modes mterm ftp larry mcrcim mcgill edu \( 132 206 1 1 \) , x mterm src mterm ball wax cxterm chinese xterm , supports 1980 called big 5 encoding input conversion mechanism builtin cxterm input methods stored external files loaded run time users redefine existing input methods create ones x11r5 cxterm rewritten cxterm \( version 11 5 1 \) based x11r5 xterm r5 contrib software thanks zhou zhou tele unit bang uunet ! idt unit ! xvt available export 's contrib xvt 1 0 tar z xvt 1 0 readme designed offer xterm 's functionality lower swap space may particular use systems driving many x terminals x3270 x11r5 contrib also ibm sells 3270 emulator rs 6000 \( part 011 \) 's based motif century software \( 801 268 \) sells vt220 terminal emulator x , 50 sco color console emulation also available 's x provides emulation tektronix , , graphics terminals 's available major platforms information \( inc free demo copies \) 800 426 2230 fax 408 446 0666 uunet ! ! sales ixi 's x , package integrating character based applications x environment , includes number terminal emulation modules information 44 \( 0223 \) 5 90 produces teem x , set several emulation packages number tek , dec , , data general terminals software runs sun 3 , sun 4 , apollo , dec , isc , ibm aix information us 609 895 , uk 44 \( \) 5 90 sco 's \( info sco com \) , part open desktop environment , motif compliant sco ansi color console emulator subject 77 \) ! get x based editor word processor \? ftp version gnu emacs , extensible , customizable , self documenting , real time display editor , including x11 support , prep ai mit edu 18 71 0 38 pub gnu emacs 18 59 tar z informatik tu muenchen de pub gnu emacs emacs 18 59 tar z epoch modified version gnu emacs \( 18 \) additional facilities useful x environment current sources cs uiuc edu \( 128 174 252 1 \) ftp pub epoch files epoch current 3 92 version 4 0 europe , try unido informatik uni dortmund de two subdirectories epoch contains epoch source , gwm contains source programmable window manager gwm , epoch works well get epoch mailing list sending request epoch request cs uiuc edu lucid emacs version gnu emacs derived early version emacs version 19 currently requires x windows run x support greatly enhanced gnu emacs version 18 , including support multiple x windows , input display iso 8859 1 \( \) characters , style region highlighting , customizable motif like menubar , powerful keymap support , flexible text attributes , support regional screen local basis x resources lisp , support x11 selection mechanism lucid emacs free latest version \( 2 93 \) 19 4 , available stanford edu pub gnu lucid directory andrew system x11 contrib tapes described one best word processing packages available supports word processing multi media embedded objects , tables spread sheets , drawings , style editor , application builder , embedded programming language , c release 5 1 became available 2 june 92 fred hansen \( andrew cmu edu \) may able use remote andrew demo service try software try finger help atk itc cmu edu help interviews c toolkit contains editor called doc saves loads files latex like format \( quite latex \) package also import idraw postscript drawings simple editor axe \( j k wight newcastle ac uk \) available export arjuna newcastle ac uk \( 128 240 150 1 \) axe 4 1 tar z 3 93 based around xaw text widget ted simple motif based text editor wrapper around motif text widget offers search replace , paragraph formatting , navigation features ted available ftp eos ncsu edu \( 152 1 9 25 \) pub bill tar z also executables point , crowley cs unm edu \( charlie crowley \) , tcl tk based offers configuration programming tcl macro language editor available cs unm edu \( 129 24 16 1 \) pub point 1 tar z , \( ic ac uk \) export contrib tar z simple text editor built around motif text widget version 1 11 released 1 93 also elan computer group \( mountain view , ca 415 964 2200 \) announced avalon publisher 2 0 , x11 open look wysiwyg electronic publishing system framemaker available x based binary products several machines frame 800 843 \( ca 408 433 \) \( formerly \) available non standard \( 33 \( 1 \) 43 36 77 50 requests nsl fr \) buzzwords international inc editor called runs x motif various platforms info 1 314 334 available dec dec hardware available sun soon available island graphics \( 415 491 1000 \) \( info island com \) hp apollo platforms interleaf currently available interleaf \( 800 241 , 617 577 9800 \) sun dec platforms others development aster x office integration tools applix \( 1 800 , 508 870 0300 \) include multi font document composer several systems arbortext , inc provides x11 version electronic publishing program called publisher publisher available sun , hp apollo workstations contact arbortext 313 996 5 90 iris computing laboratories offers ie editor info 1 505 988 info com bbn slate bbn software products includes menu driven word processor multiple fonts style sheets supports x multiple platforms \( 617 873 5000 slate offer bbn com \) 11 90 powerful sam editor rob pike split host portion front end graphics portion , x implementation sam available anonymous ftp research att com , dist sam bundle z watch space updated versions mailing list sam users requests sam fans request hawkwind toronto edu set extensions augment mouse activity keyboard available cso uiuc edu pub sam 0 shar innovative solutions \( 505 883 brian , ! brian basis com \) publishes user configurable motif based editor qualix offers product information info qualix com 800 245 unix \( 415 572 0200 \) motif based editor available several systems information research , 408 867 , fax wordperfect offers x based version wordperfect 5 1 several workstations information 801 222 5300 800 451 subject 78 \) get x based mailer \? xmh , x interface mh , distributed x11 release x based window interface berkeley style mail handlers styled primarily sunview mailtool application builds unix systems current release 1 92 1 4 , available mit x11r5 contrib tape export uunet info jeff , cadence com mmh \( mail handler \) , motif interface mh mail handler , available ftp eos ncsu edu \( 152 1 9 25 \) pub bill tar z bundled ted editor , uses messages motif 1 1 required n't , look dec sparc executables place information problems erik scott , eos ncsu edu 1 92 andrew toolkit supports andrew message system available export many x archives andrew cmu edu \( 128 2 30 62 \) , send email susan andrew cmu edu release 5 1 became available 2 june 92 may able use remote andrew demo service try software try finger help atk itc cmu edu help xaw based interface bsd style mail reader version 2 0 released 9 92 information bob kierski , bobo cray com 612 683 5874 cem motif based mailer using standard mailbox formats nelson tx ncsu edu pub cem information sam moore \( sam moore ncsu edu \) also alfalfa software offers , unix based mailer motif command based interfaces includes support multimedia , supports internet x 400 mail standards information info alfalfa com , 1 617 497 2922 z code software offers z mail unix systems binaries support tty motif interfaces mailer includes csh like scripting language customizing extending mail capabilities information info z code com , 1 415 499 several vendors' systems include x based mailers dec offers sun offers x based mailtool sco \( info sco com \) includes open desktop product several integrated office productivity tools include mailers aster x office integration tools applix \( 1 800 , 508 870 0300 \) include mailer subject 79 \) ! get x based paint draw program \? xpic object oriented drawing program supports multiple font styles sizes variable line widths rotations xpic quite suitable interactive front end pic , though xpic format produced converted postscript \( latest version r4 contrib tape clients xpic \) xfig \( brian v smith \( lbl gov \) \) object oriented drawing program supporting compound objects xfig format converted postscript formats recent versions r5 contrib tape export contrib \( version 2 1 6 11 92 \) idraw supports numerous fonts various line styles arbitrary rotations supports zoom scroll color draws fills file format postscript dialect import tiff files distributed part interviews c toolkit \( current release 3 1 , interviews stanford edu \) version robert 's \( lightning cis ufl edu \) , 8 bit paint program x , ftp cis ufl edu pub 2 93 available ftp ee lbl gov tar z rewrite , 2 0 , david koblas \( koblas netcom com \) released 2 93 tar z bitmap pixmap editing tool new openwindows postscript based graphical editor named 2 91 available anonymous ftp internet host lamont ldgo columbia edu \( 129 236 10 30 \) ice \( image composition environment \) imaging tool allows raster images combined wide variety postscript wysiwyg fashion via x11 imaging routines news postscript \( may require openwindows sun c 2 0 \) tgif william cheng \( william oahu cs ucla edu \) available uucp sites also export cs ucla edu frequently updated version 2 12 released 3 93 pixmap program \( info sa inria fr \) creating pixmaps r5 contrib tape resembles bitmap client version 2 1 available 11 92 although metacard generally classified paint program , full 24 bit color image editor built program , used light image editing producing color icons \( info metacard com \) metacard available via anonymous ftp ftp metacard com , csn org , 128 138 213 21 j michael produces xpm output also bitmap oriented drawing program like macpaint 's good use artists commonly held bad drawing figures drafting part dec 's ultrix release framemaker draw capabilities 4 90 bbn slate bbn software products includes full featured draw paint program object grouping multiple patterns multiple x platforms \( 617 873 5000 slate offer bbn com \) 11 90 dux ta dah ! , 1 800 543 4999 offers , , info 415 491 1000 corel draw , 613 728 ported x prior data sciences 800 267 2626 arts letters composer , 214 661 autograph , 513 771 openwindows includes editor sco odt includes editor hp vue includes editor several integrated office productivity tools include draw paint capabilities aster x office integration tools applix \( 1 800 , 508 870 0300 \) include draw paint capabilities thanks part stephen j \( com \) j daniel smith \( ann arbor applicon slb com \) david b lewis faq craft uunet uu net faqs , ma'am joe friday david b lewis temporarily speaking visual , inc day dbl visual com evening david craft uunet uu net
newcastle ac uk \( \) subject honors degrees mean anything \? organization university newcastle upon tyne , uk , ne1 7ru lines 37 nntp posting host cogsci ed ac uk \( kevin davidson \) writes opinion , programming degree still worth yes , cs degree programming degree anybody know computing course programming taught \? computer science branch maths \( course \) 've also done software engineering course much practical likely sort thing employer really wants , rather think want , also teach programming ability program entry requirement try 'm sc computing course real newcastle university 's conversion course , least teach real programming space 9 months taught pascal , , prolog , miranda also , basic low level stuff \( 68000 \) covered well also concurrent programming operating systems , software engineering , plus quite optional units , including database theory , stuff comms pascal replaced c c think next year lear n't \( x windows programming well \) anyway via good selection project final three months depending tastes , selection skills lear n't quite wide reaching one would level course , would thought invaluable , lack option project period industry would probably need slightly longer project period \( say six months \) , would enhance prestige usefulness already excellent thorough course yes , know sounds like plug course , ! ian
beck irzr17 inf tu dresden de \( andre beck \) subject cute x clients organization dept computer science , tu dresden , germany lines 69 distribution world reply andre beck irs inf tu dresden de nntp posting host irzr17 inf tu dresden de try include stdio h include x11 xlib h include x11 h display dpy int screen xcolor xclrs , xclrp xid cmap int cells , , j , red , green , blue , got main \( \) dpy xopendisplay \( null \) screen defaultscreen \( dpy \) cells \( dpy , screen \) cmap xcreatecolormap \( dpy , rootwindow \( dpy , screen \) , \( dpy , screen \) , 1 \) xclrs \( xcolor \) malloc \( cells sizeof \( xclrs \) \) xclrp xclrs \( 0 cells \) xclrp pixel xclrp flags 7 xclrp \( dpy , \( dpy , screen \) , xclrs , cells \) xstorecolors \( dpy , cmap , xclrs , cells \) \( dpy , cmap \) got 1 \( got \) xclrp xclrs got 0 \( 0 cells \) \( xclrp red 65000 \) xclrp red 256 got 1 \( xclrp green 65000 \) xclrp green 256 got 1 \( xclrp blue 65000 \) xclrp blue 256 got 1 xclrp xstorecolors \( dpy , cmap , xclrs , cells \) \( dpy , cmap \) got 1 \( got \) xclrp xclrs got 0 \( 0 cells \) \( xclrp red 256 \) xclrp red 256 got 1 \( xclrp green 256 \) xclrp green 256 got 1 \( xclrp blue 256 \) xclrp blue 256 got 1 xclrp xstorecolors \( dpy , cmap , xclrs , cells \) \( dpy , cmap \) work pseudocolor xserver \( hopefully \) brain inside andre' beck \( abpsoft \) mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de
vic \( v martinez 6463 \) subject trouble compiling x11r5 sunos 4 1 3 article ast 1993apr6 528 organization saic lines 7 x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 problems compiling x11r5 ipc sunos 4 1 3 compile 'make k world' stop ld errors stated another post clients errors still run correctly victor martinez vic saic com
soar cs cmu edu \( erik \) subject fwd progressives happy hour original bb general cs cmu edu organization school computer science , carnegie mellon distribution cmu lines 21 forwarding begins date wed , 7 apr 1993 15 39 55 0400 \( edt \) women 's center women andrew cmu edu dist afs andrew cmu edu usr0 women announce dl andrew cmu edu subject progressives happy hour enjoy good food interesting company progressives happy hour , thursday 8 april , starting 5 30pm women 's center \( located next margaret morrison plaza \) kosher passover food served welcome \( good things drink , paper cups wo n't please progressive bring cup mug \) co sponsored student government president funded student fee end forwarding
amit uchicago edu \( amit \) subject problems open windows organization dept statistics lines 22 openwindows \( version 3 sunos 4 1 \) xwindows running continuously machine 3 4 days , following message appears trying open new window , run program needs open windows xview error cannot open connection window server 0 0 \( server package \) would greatly appreciate suggestions solve problem amit department statistics university chicago chicago il
amit uchicago edu \( amit \) subject problems openwindows organization dept statistics lines 22 openwindows \( version 3 sunos 4 1 \) xwindows running continuously machine 3 4 days , following message appears trying open new window , run program needs open windows xview error cannot open connection window server 0 0 \( server package \) would greatly appreciate suggestions solve problem amit department statistics university chicago chicago il
guy x co uk \( guy singh \) subject xv root vue \? \( xloadimage \) reply jan camhpp12 mdcbbs com 's message 5 apr 93 11 31 27 pdt x disclaimer view ixi ltd unless explicitly stated lines 22 nntp posting host x co uk organization lot whaley behemoth kpc com 1993apr5 ug eds com x copyright author asserts right message 5 apr 93 11 31 27 pdt , jan camhpp12 mdcbbs com \( jan vandenbrande \) said jan nntp posting host 134 244 49 156 jan related note , use xv display colored gifs jan root display hp vue \? jan vue display xbm 's jan backdrop style manager jan xv seem able override whatever vue jan puts suspect vue creates window \( probably \) size \( larger \) root window window manager know , cannot move , resize etc xv mean time busy changing root window whatever requested never get see vue 's window overlaid top root window contact hp support see whether vue support coloured bitmap format xpm , cant probably create coloured inside code guy singh , ixi internet guy x co uk vision park uucp guy ixi uucp cambridge bang ! uunet ! ixi ! guy cb4 , uk tel 44 223 236 555
mmc cs rit edu \( mahendra \) subject rotate text \? nntp posting host organization rochester institute technology hi , programming xview , sunos 4 1 2 openwindows 3 0 would like rotate text display read faq comp windows x sure translate xview would appreciate someone give tips thanx mahendra ps frequent news group reader , would appreciate answers replies would mailed post follow mahendra mmc cs rit edu ritvax isc rit edu office residence dept computer science 440 kimball drive rochester institute tech rochester , ny tel 716 475 tel 716 292
troll sug org \( newman \) subject trouble compiling x11r5 sunos 4 1 3 article world u5 organization sun user group lines 192 nntp posting host bridge sug org article 1993apr6 fwi uva nl casper fwi uva nl \( casper h dik \) writes epstein trwacs fp trw com \( jeremy epstein \) writes dmm head cfa harvard edu \( david \) writes 's bug sunos 4 1 3 , alluded faq \( although 's talking x11r4 affected \) need force libxmu linked statically , rather dynamically , works around linker error simplest thing edit makefiles 's failure change line reads xmulib l \( xmusrc \) lxmu xmulib l \( xmusrc \) bstatic lxmu bdynamic relevant openwindows 3 x shipped sunos relevant mit r5 mit r5 compile without problems casper n't know many hours 've spent , sun user group makes x11r5 available cd rom members 1992 1 disk sources binaries sells 50 've tagged table contents anyone 's interested alex newman alex newman \( 617 \) 232 voice life may , troll sug org \( 617 \) 232 fax least 's boring sun user group 1330 beacon st , 315 brookline , sug cd 1992 1 x11r5 gnu cdrom , priced 50 sug members , including caddy ! sug 's emphasis always supplying greatest possible service value added members last year , sug 1991 disk contained plug play x11r4 , 20mb additional essential binaries , almost 200mb sun patches , fully indexed archives sun related net postings , priced 250 aim year reduce price disks produced inexpensively , continue supply much value added possible accomplish , putting two disk set , first containing 's ready needed , second available later '92 , containing sparc binaries useful material found previous disks sug 1992 1 disk , assembled robert bruce , contains lot essential source code , decided would great service make available right away members \( pricing makes good opportunity become member ! \) 50 per disk \( including one hard find ! \) sug member , become one additional 40 live within us 55 outside sug 1992 1 cdrom iso disk \( means used pc , macintosh , workstations well \) , contains total material , including x11r5 sources core binaries \( sparc \) several weeks initial distribution , thus , four fixes mit contrib 0 distribution included \( material \) binaries x xsun xsunmono auto box bdftopcf beach ball bitmap bmtoa editres fs ico imake mode makedepend maze mkdirhier mkfontdir oclock puzzle resize startx twm xauth xbiff xclock xdm xdpyinfo xedit xev xhost xinit xload xman xmh xmkmf xmodmap xon xpr xrdb xset xsetroot xstdcmap xterm xwd xwininfo xwud copies contributed x sources \( export lcs mit edu contrib \) , uncompressed source directories \( 212mb \) sources , \( date production disk \) included mit contrib 2 contrib 3 distributions gnu sources uncompressed source directories \( \) sparc binaries \( needed libraries \) gnu programs ar bash bison cat cc1 chmod chown ci cmp co comm compress cp cpp cut cvs date dd df diff dir du elvis emacs env expand find flex fold g g dep g gcc gdb gnuplot gnuplot x11 grep head id ident indent ld ld less ln locate logname ls m4 make merge mkdir mt mv nice nm paste perl pr printf ranlib rcs ref rm rmt screen sed size sleep split strip stty sum tac tail tar tee test time touch tty uname yes archive comp source x postings , volume 0 \( \) parts supplied posted get put together pieces , compile , install , etc cost sug members 50 non members additional 40 within us , 55 elsewhere shipping handling 10 inside usa 25 elsewhere mail sun user group , inc suite 315 1330 beacon street brookline , usa \( 617 \) 232 voice \( 617 \) 232 fax sun user group also accepts visa mastercard via telephone electronically cut return completed form 1992 1 order form price cd 50 shipping handling add 10 \( usa \) 25 \( \) member sun user group , add 40 \( usa \) 55 \( international \) sums membership must sug member purchase cd rom enclose us check 60 \( sug member usa \) 75 \( sug member outside usa \) 100 \( includes membership inside usa \) 130 \( includes international membership \) name signature company name sug membership \( known \) electronic mail address telephone number check enclosed mastercard visa credit card exp date card holder signature ship bill hereby authorize sun user group renew membership charge credit card automatically annual basis wish name included non sun user group mailings wish name published sun user group member directory wish added sun user group electronic mailing list \( members \) outside u individuals outside usa may find using credit cards easier purchasing us checks eliminates bank charges sun user group 1330 beacon street , suite 315 brookline , voice 1 617 232 fax 1 617 232 email office sug org
ndd sunbar mc duke edu \( ned \) subject problem tek xterminal organization basic arrhythmia laboratory , duke univ med center , durham , n c lines 18 nntp posting host bal1 mc duke edu originator ndd bal1 recently purchased tektronix xterminal , i'm problem graphics widget wrote display waveforms , n't work xterminal buttons , etc , show , seems take 'right' amount time draw , nothing visible graphics window clue start looking program works fine suns \( 3s 4s , color b w \) could anyone suggest line attack problem \? color xterminal running 6 0 0 host sun ipx running sunos 4 1 3 x11r5 , ned \( ndd sunbar mc duke edu \) basic arrhythmia laboratory box , duke university medical center durham , nc 27710 \( 919 \) 660 5111 660 5100
eplrx7 es dupont com \( karen rogers \) subject return key dialog organization dupont central research development lines 58 new x programming , please bear trying dialog box returns 's value upon user entering new value hitting return key \( n't want done button \) piece code work exclude argument work someone shed light suggest better way \? ultimately several areas active time allow user modify parameters program thanks help , karen rogers dupont pluto es dupont com code starts void doit \( \) printf \( entered doit function n \) exit \( \) main \( argc , argv \) int argc char argv widget toplevel widget outer xtappcontext app con widget samples arg args 3 static key actions doit , doit , toplevel \( app con , test , null , 0 , argc , argv , null , null \) outer xtcreatemanagedwidget \( , , toplevel , null , zero \) \( app con , key actions , xtnumber \( key actions \) \) xtsetarg \( args 0 , xtnlabel , enter value \) xtsetarg \( args 1 , , 0 \) samples xtcreatemanagedwidget \( samples , , outer , args , 2 \) \( samples , \( key return doit \( \) \) \) xtrealizewidget \( toplevel \) xtappmainloop \( app con \)
brian mdavcr mda ca \( brian \) subject joining x consortium \? \? \? \? organization macdonald dettwiler , commerce parkway , richmond , bc , canada v6v 2j3 lines 6 hi , anyone information joining x consortium \? costs , benefits , contact \? thanks
glang slee01 srl ford com \( gordon lang \) subject honors degrees mean anything \? organization ford motor company research laboratory lines 27 nntp posting host slee01 srl ford com x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 justin \( jck catt citri edu au \) wrote got comp windows x \? agree side track , funny skip many articles \( threads \) could n't resist reading one beliefs , opinions , expressions strictly represent reflect official unofficial policies attitudes person organization heard ford motor company \( \) recruiting bias toward engineers away computer science graduates reasoning supposedly better meet long range personnel requirements evidenced large number cs people employed via contracts brought board except special circumstances generalization obviously n't always hold true , statistics furthermore , software engineering ford gets done electrical engineers know 2 merged computer science department electrical engineering get computer degree qualifies much programming since beliefs opinions merely distorted imagination suppose keep
cleveland freenet edu \( david \) subject large color monitors article usenet md8 organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 11 nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu anyone information advice large color monitors \( 17 21 \) use 486 system running x server software \? looking quality information price , information welcomed thanks , david 's ball bearings !
problem inews gateway file \( \) subject converting contents x window color postscript organization electrical engineering dept manchester university lines 22 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 jeff haferman \( haferman uiowa edu \) wrote somebody point source code dumping contents x window color postscript file \? written app brings x window , want \( click mouse \) dump window postscript file thanks jeff haferman internet haferman uiowa edu department mechanical engineering dod bmwmoa ama university iowa iowa city , ia '76 r90s use xwd xwd2ps within program use xwd id xxxxx xxxxx window id obtained xtwindow \( widget \) , 109 , building , dept electrical eng , university manchester , oxford rd , manchester , u k
lemons enet dec com subject xremote x11r6 \? reply lemons enet dec com \( \) organization digital equipment corporation lines 12 x newsreader 6 18 hi ! remember reading \( \) ncd 's pc xremote functionality given , ncd , mit inclusion x11r6 true \? , \( set mode cheap \) wait x11r6 get compressed serial line x server support \? thanks ! terry lemons digital equipment corporation
matt centerline com \( matt landau \) subject recent information \? organization centerline software , inc lines 4 nntp posting host 140 239 1 32 anyone know recent information work done consortium \? 've seen short description published x resource , looking something bit depth
duvvuri cs odu edu \( v prakash \) subject pointer xlib nntp posting host cs odu edu organization old dominion university , norfolk , va lines 26 hi trying implement pointer feature xlib multiple windows take input show output simultaneously displays want implement pointer feature would like get pointer come windows choose pointer menu every one able see give hints proceed new xlib replies greatly appreciated thank prakash duvvuri cs odu edu
\( carl johnson \) subject xterm default text cursor color reply cyclone bt co uk organization british telecom research labs lines 17 nntp posting host bt co uk want able set cursor color color set xterm man page cr color option specifies color use text default use foreground color used text however doesnt seem case , appears default black whatever xterm set feel free point relevant fm whatever , cheers , c
rik csc liv ac uk \( rik \) subject string widget resource converter organization computer science , liverpool university lines 52 nntp posting host csc liv ac uk anybody tell use xmu function want specify widget name resource file connect two widgets together ie however , run program , get message warning type converter registered conversion \( like manual sez \) managed find bit code seems correct way go static , \( xtpointer \) \( , core parent \) , sizeof \( \) \( , , , , xtnumber \( \) , , null \) however , n't got clue put ! example code seems suggest creating widget elsewhere says add widget 's class function \? 's one \? \( anybody code , please let know trick i'm sure faq thanks advance , rik ps header files h h use core h intrinsics h \( ok know rtfm \) richard dept computer science e mail university liverpool rik compsci liverpool ac uk liverpool 3bx england phone \( 051 \) 794
rob earhart earhart cmu edu subject q avoid xopendisplay hang \? organization sophomore , physics , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 4 nntp posting host po4 andrew cmu edu reply skates gsfc nasa gov n't know avoid xopendisplay hang perhaps could use something else \( zephyr , perhaps \) \? \) rob
johnc bu edu \( john collins \) subject problem mit shm organization boston university lines 27 trying write image display program uses mit shared memory extension shared memory segment gets allocated attached process problem program crashes first call , following message x error failed request \( invalid shared segment parameter \) major opcode failed request 133 \( mit shm \) minor opcode failed request 3 \( x \) segment id failed request 0x0 serial number failed request 741 current serial number output stream 742 like said , error checking calls necessary create shared memory segment , well checking problems anybody problem used mit shm without problem , please let know way , running openwindows 3 0 sun sparc2 thanks advance john c
oj world std com \( oliver jones \) subject q avoid xopendisplay hang \? keywords xlib article world organization shawsheen software lines 18 article skates gsfc nasa gov andy ice stx com writes i'm writing , simple x version , want put message default list displays problem xopendisplay hangs one displays currently controlled xdm \( login screen \) xdm 's running secure mode \( screen locks \) 's really simple way tell case take xdm secure mode probably cool wrap call xopendisplay code future sigalrm past xopendisplay signal handler example seen xdm sources note xopendisplay probably causes memory leak program functioning way probably needs exit \( \) regularly
brent vpnet chi il us \( brent hansen \) subject gui study organization vpnet public access distribution usa lines 58 article 1993apr2 kocrsv01 delcoelect com kocrsv01 delcoelect com \( james f iii \) writes i'm study following type users would like unix manager basically i'm looking unix commands features motif window interface help different type users make use unix personally , ca n't stand motif also ca n't stand gui command line ! interfaces things like access commands know command line ! love think 'll find experience sic users command line ! der mouse year half ago felt way started using give command line something ordinary needs done , normal work note operations hackers love like gui 's ability view manipulate group objects , files , text , directories , etc manipulate way delete , copy , paste , rename ability several applications screens visible accessable time able standard set functions easily quickly unfamiliar operating system familiar command lines several operating systems occasionally work system almost never use gui , usually accomplish want fairly easily , command line hand often long painful experience hate gui 's switch mouse keyboard guess strong one handed preference like use computer one hand use holding something like piece paper mug tea configured favorite editor editing functions done one hand , cutting , pasting , searching , opening saving files , etc main thing need use hands entering text guess need get one mice , like , 20 buttons something best worlds brent
ics uci edu \( \) subject motif interviews lines 12 hi , process making decision whether write c wrappers motif use motif interviews though downloaded tar files , fail see documentation two questions 1 \) used similar c sy toolkits experience \? 2 \) find reference books documentation \? input greatly appreciated
beck irzr17 inf tu dresden de \( andre beck \) subject lost \( color \) space organization dept computer science , tu dresden , germany lines 13 distribution world reply andre beck irs inf tu dresden de nntp posting host irzr17 inf tu dresden de hi , worked system i'm using x11r5 pl 17 dec 5000 240 ultrix 4 3 may serious compilation problem \? brain inside andre' beck \( abpsoft \) mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de
swick news colorado edu \( ross swick \) subject books c c c c nntp posting host colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder distribution cu lines 21 anyone recomend good book article inter client communications besides c c \? 've looked everywhere seems everyone tells nobody shows o'reilly examples , examples , asente swick give examples fact books 've looked , discuss , simply give condensed version refer find one example use atoms properties young 's book five hours bought young 's book applications talking sure , however , thats best way 'd like stay independent unix pipes sockets probably n't way go within x one also use messages , clipboard , perhaps window groups need text discusses various methods , discusses method best purpose , gives examples without examples 's words thanks advance ross
ngai nova bellcore com \( john ngai \) subject disable reverse video xterm man nntp posting host nova bellcore com organization bellcore lines 22 well sure right newsgroup ask , let try anyway running xterm like unix users , run man something recently , switched solaris 2 1 , man pages directives somehow translated reverse video displayed man xterm resulting output \( admittedly personal taste \) annoying look back using sunos 4 1 2 , remember man pages keywords displayed underlining question change xterm 's behaviour directives man pages , perhaps underlining , least disabling \( b directives fine , like course , n't want go edit man pages inputs \) somehow , xterm allows one specify normal font bold font , italic font \? \? pointers , suggestions greatly appreciated thanks john p running xterm rv wo n't work , tried
world std com \( thomas n erickson \) subject teleuse , uim x , c organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 20 ctp com \( hubert chou \) writes anyone good ideas integrate c code elegantly teleuse , uim x interface architect generated code \? source would great , suggestions welcome alsys produced paper outlining use c teleuse get copy local sales rep call us \( 619 \) 457 2700 mentioned , straight forward using dialog language \( similar visual basic \) tom erickson alsys world std com 67 south bedford street burlington ,
eng sun com \( david bryant \) subject gui toolkit sun sparc reply eng sun com organization sun microsystems , inc lines 21 nntp posting host article ab ca , sun \( robin 233 \) writes right going motif rather openlook sun recently seen light dumped commitment openlook announcement stated future plans devguide incorrect sun made claim regarding devguide , manager devguide engineering group state authority work devguide continuing quite strong show interest devguide user community last week 's solaris developer 's conference devguide advocated valuable future builder tool , important bit transition technology help sustain current customers facilitate cose desktop environment specific questions devguide availability , etc , contact , devguide product marketing person , \( 415 \) 336 3536 david bryant devguide manager sunsoft
yfn ysu edu \( joshua p weage \) subject x pc organization youngstown state youngstown free net lines 17 nntp posting host yfn ysu edu could n't find x appeal , availible following ascii co jp pub msdos dir wuarchive wustl edu garbo uwasa fi demo directory three files aip , zip drivers zip josh joshua weage u snail 277 spring rd , , mi e mail freenet cwru edu yfn ysu edu fidonet joshua weage 1 2340 130 ideas one elses ! !
adrian ora com \( adrian nye \) subject widgets vs gadgets organization o'reilly associates , inc lines 15 reply adrian ora com nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu 've using xmgraph widget 's floating around noticed performance significantly better using gadgets , perhaps even 100 faster heard old programming course gadgets longer benefit performance , 's well use widgets everywhere interesting , 'd like know try single ethernet 100 x terminals , think 'll find much slower adrian nye o'reilly associates
haji lcs mit edu \( shash chatterjee \) subject help sunview olwm xview3 x11r5 article haji organization internet lines 23 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu fin lcs mit edu hi , compiled x11r5 distribution sun3 sunos4 1 1 also compiled public domain xview3 \( olwm \) distribution old 3rd party application binaries sunview programs get work xview3 olwm \? \( tried using openwindows version 2 program , work \) news access 's mailing directly also , email alias questions get comp windows x comp windows open look \? please respond fwr8bv fin af mil thanks , shash shash chatterjee email fwr8bv fin af mil ec software phone \( 817 \) 763 1495 lockheed fort worth company fax \( 817 \) 777 p box 748 , ft worth , tx
lbl gov \( brian v smith \) subject need source splines article dog distribution world organization lbl lines 21 nntp posting host 128 3 12 123 article fmsrl7 srl ford com , glang slee01 srl ford com \( gordon lang \) writes xlib programming manual \( associates \) pointed routines drawing splines included xlib , extensions publicly available need spline routines work within x environment previously posted similar request got two responses , directing interviews package interviews stanford edu got , much looks like much work try identify , extract modify relevant components looking code complex extensive framework beyond needs need spline extensions xlib look xfig two types spline algorithms relatively simple xfig available export lcs mit edu contrib xfig patches xfig 2 1 6 tar z brian v smith \( lbl gov \) lawrence berkeley laboratory n't speak lbl n't pay enough
gus ecn purdue edu \( lung \) subject honors degrees mean anything \? organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 6 hear george bush \( remember \? \) receive honors degree kuwaiti university contributing certain kuwaiti interests long ago think would add much resume \? \)
beck irzr17 inf tu dresden de \( andre beck \) subject converting contents x window color postscript organization dept computer science , tu dresden , germany lines 33 distribution world reply andre beck irs inf tu dresden de nntp posting host irzr17 inf tu dresden de article 1993apr8 hanse de , hanse de \( jan \) writes problem inews gateway file \( \) writes jeff haferman \( haferman uiowa edu \) wrote somebody point source code dumping contents x window color postscript file \? written app brings x window , want \( click mouse \) dump window postscript file use xwd xwd2ps within program use xwd id xxxxx xxxxx window id obtained xtwindow \( widget \) asked sources portable bitmap tools jef poskanzer jef well sf ca us include filters \( much \) btw , x11 tools come sources vendors lets stuck binaries anyway , look onto xgrabsc imho best job , including compression brain inside andre' beck \( abpsoft \) mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de
art cs ualberta ca \( art mulder \) subject comp windows x getting performance x faq summary posting contains list suggestions get best performance x workstation without buying hardware keywords faq speed x nntp posting host spirit riv cs ualberta ca reply art cs ualberta ca \( art mulder \) organization university alberta , edmonton , canada expires thu , 20 may 1993 23 00 00 gmt lines 677 archive name x faq speedups last modified 1993 4 15 maximize performance x monthly posting compiled art mulder \( art cs ualberta ca \) ram , faster cpu 's , disk space , faster ethernet standard responses hear ask improve performance workstation well , hardware n't always option , wonder hardware always even necessity faq list collection suggestions ideas different people net best possible performance x windows workstation , without purchasing hardware performance highly subjective issue individual user must balance versus order come personal decision therefore document expected contain many subjective opinions amongst objective facts document specifically concerned x course many factors affect performance workstation however , outside scope document people seriously interested whole area system performance , might want look o'reilly nutshell handbook system performance tuning mike i'm 25 way reading , looks like well written comprehensive treatment system performance i'm unaware similar books ed table contents 0 introduction administrivia 1 x faq \? 2 window managers 3 x server server \? locking server ram \? starting server fonts resources file ! define display properly 4 clients better clock x better terminal emulator x tuning client 5 miscellaneous suggestions pretty pictures quicker mouse programming thoughts say ! \? 6 sources information 7 author notes ! changed since last issue new since last issue introduction administrivia document posted month , around 15th , usenet news groups comp windows x , news answers , comp answers reading copy faq months old \( see last modified date \) probably locate latest edition , since information may outdated know get newsgroups site receive article already expired , retrieve faq archive site exist several usenet faq archive sites find access , please see introduction news answers newsgroup posting news answers main faq archive rtfm mit edu 18 172 1 27 document found pub usenet news answers x faq speedups access anonymous ftp , retrieve sending mail message mail server pit manager mit edu command send usenet news answers x faq speedups message body x faq \? david b lewis \( faq craft uunet uu net \) maintains informative well written comp windows x frequently asked questions document focus general x information , faq concentrates performance comp windows x faq address issue speed , regards x server gist topic seems use x11r5 , faster r4 \( please see x faq complete details \) window managers lot window managers , lots different features abilities choice use necessity balancing act performance useful features point , respondents agreed upon twm best candidate speedy window manager couple generic tricks try soup window manger , turning unnecessary things like zooming opaque move also , lay windows tiled manner , reduce amount cpu power spent raising lowering overlapping windows joe english \( joe trystero art com \) 've found good font tiling 7x13 \( aka misc fixed medium r normal 13 100 100 100 c 70 iso8859 1 \) biggest font know use sun \( 1152x900 screen \) still get two 80 column terminal windows side side display overlap font suggestions accepted x server server \? make sure server proper match hardware monochrome monitor , use monochrome x11 server monochrome sun , n't noticed much difference xsun \( colour \) server xsunmono , however pointed xsunmono 800k smaller therefore contribute less paging thanks jonny farringdon \( j farringdon psychol ucl ac uk \) , michael salmon \( michael salmon eos ericsson se \) server compiled also make difference jeff law \( law cs utah edu \) advises us sun system , x compiled gcc \( version 2 \) sun compiler expect get large speedups server using bundled sunos compiler assume similar results would occur used one high quality commercial compilers market locking server ram \? anyone tried hacking x server locked ram get \? eg via call \( \) help performance \? 've one inquiry topic , pointers \( \) function call , hard evidence someone 's tried position give try thanks eric c \( ecc att com \) , danny backx \( db sunbim \) , juan martin \( us es \) starting server joe english \( joe trystero art com \) start lot clients xsession whatever , sleep second two launching one changed xclients script , logging actually took less time heavily loaded system without much core , though sounds crazy , confirmed works ! warner \( imp solbourne com \) provided good explanation works , summarized start x server takes huge amount time start accepting connections lot initialization done server starts process touches large number pages process running time would fight server use cpu , importantly , memory put sleep , give server chance get sorted clients start similarly , also lot initialization whenever x client program starts toolkits registering widgets , resources fetched , programs initializing state databases forth activity typically memory intensive initialization done \( process reached steady state \) , memory usage typically settles using pages using sleeps launching clients xinitrc , avoid fighting workstation 's limited resources definitely mileage may vary situation , many variables considered available ram , local swap space , load average , number users system , clients starting , etc currently xinitrc situation like \( sleep 1 exec xclock \) \( sleep 1 exec xbiff \) \( sleep 1 exec xterm \) \( sleep 1 exec xterm \) 've experimented \( sleep 1 exec xclock \) \( sleep 2 exec xbiff \) \( sleep 3 exec xterm \) \( sleep 4 exec xterm \) 've even tried \( sleep 2 exec start x clients script \) start x clients script \( sleep 1 exec xclock \) \( sleep 1 exec xbiff \) \( sleep 1 exec xterm \) \( sleep 1 exec xterm \) idea last one make sure xinit completely finished processing xinitrc , settled steady state sleep expired clients launched yielded fairly comparable results , stuck current setup , simplicity probably experiment bit find setup suits fonts loading fonts takes time ram minimize number fonts applications use , 'll get speed increases load time one simple strategy choose small number fonts \( one small , one large , one roman , whatever suits \) configure clients least heavily used clients use fonts client programs start quicker font already loaded server also conserve server resources , since fewer fonts loaded server farrell mckay \( fbm oz au \) , joe english \( joe trystero art com \) eg main xterm font 7x13 , also twm set use 7x13 's menus icons etc twm 's default font since n't normally use , 've eliminated one font server oliver jones \( oj roadrunner pictel com \) keep fonts local workstation , rather loading nfs make extensive use r5 scalable fonts , use font server resources file keep xresources xdefaults file small saves ram saves server startup time joe english \( joe trystero art com \) one suggestion xdefaults \( xresources \) file , try putting minimum number resources want available applications example true , separate resources individual client specific resource files example home lib app defaults login file set environment variable xuserfilesearchpath setenv xuserfilesearchpath home lib app defaults n comp windows x frequently asked questions faq contains excellent explanation environment variables work ed , xterm launches , loads resources app defaults xterm xdvi finds app defaults xdvi , forth note clients follow xxxxx resource file naming pattern check system app defaults directory \( often usr x11r5 lib x11 app defaults \) find proper name , name personal resource files name documented xt specification \( pg 125 666 \) thanks kevin \( com \) , michael urban \( urban cobra jpl nasa gov \) , mike long \( mikel ee cornell edu \) kevin willing mail setup files method organizing personal resources following benefits easier maintain usable fewer resources stored x server resource manager property side benefit server may start quicker , since doesn`t load resources applications process resources , never sort resources find ones affect also drawbacks application interested load additional file every time starts n't seem make much performance difference , might consider huge boon modifying application 's resource database , need run application without xrdb xrdb default run xdefaults file cpp resources split multiple resource files loaded individual client programs , watch ! ! c style comments xdefaults file , cpp stripped switched method distributed resource files spent several frustrating days trying figure clients finding resources xt provide error message encountered c style comments resource files , simply , silently , aborted processing resource file loss \( handy , e g `` ifdef \) enough cause people dismiss method resource management may also run clients break rules example , neither emacs \( 18 58 3 \) xvt \( 1 0 \) find resources anywhere xdefaults starting client machine share files machine resources stored , client find resources loading resources server guarantee clients always find resources casey \( casey gauss llnl gov \) possible compromise suggestion \( planning trying \) put resources heavily used clients \( eg xterm \) xdefaults file , use separate resources files method clients seldom use define display properly client programs often executed machine server situation , rather setting display environment variable hostname 0 0 , hostname name workstation , set display variable unix 0 0 0 0 access optimized routines know server machine use shared memory method transferring requests thanks patrick j \( ras amdahl com \) see display names section x \( 1 \) man page explanation properly set display name n't think 's stock mit , \( least \) data general hp libraries smart enough use local communication even display n't set specially rob sartin \( ! sartin uunet uu net \) jody goldberg \( jody com \) sent xlib patch change stock r5 use local communication even display properly set n't want get business distributing trying juggle non mit patches elected include hopefully mit apply minor \( 8 lines \) patch meantime , want try , email jody ed clients megabytes ram think carefully number programs running think also kind programs running example smaller clock program xclock \? unfortunately , n't really noticed programs advertise large , onus us research spread word suggestions better alternatives standard clients \( eg xclock , xterm , xbiff \) welcome ed 've received contradictory advice people , subject x client programs advocate use programs strictly xlib based , since xt , xaw toolkits rather large others warn us applications using may already loaded one shared libraries case , using non xt \( example \) client program may actually increase amount ram consumed upshot seems n't mix toolkits , try use athena clients , xview clients \( motif clients , etc \) use one , 're dragging one toolkit library know environment , think carefully client programs would work best together environment thanks rob sartin \( ! sartin uunet uu net \) , duncan sinclair \( sinclair dcs gla ac uk sinclair uk ac gla dcs \) better clock x 1 \) suggested duncan sinclair \( sinclair dcs gla ac uk \) available export lcs mit edu displays clock title bar another program saves screen real estate 2 \) suggested der mouse \( mouse lightning mcrcim mcgill edu \) available larry mcrcim mcgill edu \( 132 206 1 1 \) x shar non xt based extensively configurable made look much like mit oclock , mostly like xclock purely changing resources course , ultimate clock one consumes resources , takes screen real estate one hangs wall \) better terminal emulator x readme file distributed xterm abandon hope , ye enter undoubtedly ugly program distribution ugly maybe , site 's still used suspect xterm one used clients many , sites laziness \? n't better terminal emulator available \? see must use xterm , try reducing number reduce memory usage oliver jones \( oj roadrunner pictel com \) , jonny farringdon \( j farringdon psychol ucl ac uk \) 1 \) xvt suggested richard hesketh \( rlh2 ukc ac uk \) available export lcs mit edu contrib xvt 1 0 tar z n't need esoteric features xterm , get hold xvt written save swap space xterm rather hog ! written partial xterm n't rename resources , xvt pretends xterm 's current version , cannot bind keys xterm 've heard versions xvt feature , 've found yet update \( march 1993 \) recently email conversations brian warkentin \( brian eng sun com \) regarding xvt questions whether xvt really faster xterm instance , xvt may initialize slightly faster , compare scrolling speed \( try benchmark bin time dd etc termcap bs 40 \) see program scroll faster also , xterm may slightly larger ram requirements \( n't hard numbers , anyone else \? \) shared libraries shared text segments mean xterm 's paging requirements major experiment , ripped tek stuff xterm , made little difference , since never use , never gets brought memory stand conflicting reports validity xvt xterm summary \? caveat emptor , mileage may vary provide hard data , 'd like see specifically much ram occupies , much swap needs , relative speed 2 \) mterm suggested der mouse \( mouse lightning mcrcim mcgill edu \) available larry mcrcim mcgill edu \( 132 206 1 1 \) x mterm src mterm ball wax also terminal emulator major lack , people like anyway tuning client suggestions tune client programs work faster scott barman \( scott asd com \) comes suggestion regarding motif text field widgets noticed data entry motif text field widgets , getting slight lag response keystrokes , particularly initial one field examining going found seems resource non zero focus text field widget \( even text widget \) beam cursor blink every time cursor appears disappears widgets , widget code making request server \( \) user stop setting resource 0 noticeable 40mhz sparc , make little difference slower system specific suggestion probably applied general lots areas consider heavily used clients , minor embellishments turned thereby save server requests \? miscellaneous suggestions pretty pictures n't use large bitmaps \( gif 's , etc \) root window backgrounds complicated root window bitmap , slower server redrawing screen reposition windows \( redraw , etc \) take ram , cpu power work sun sparc i'm conscious performance issues , ca n't comprehend see people 4mb sun 3 60 running root window 'll let someone else figure much ram would occupied full screen root image colour workstation 're anything like , need screen real estate get clients , rarely see root window anyway thanks alex zhao \( cs arizona edu \) reminding one ed quicker mouse using xset , adjust fast pointer moves screen move mouse use xset 3 10 xinitrc file , lets send pointer across screen flick wrist see xset man page ideas information hint sometimes may want slow mouse tracking fine work cover options , placed number different mouse setting commands menu window manager e g \( twm \) menu mouse settings mouse settings f title fast ! xset 7 10 normal \( fast \) ! xset 3 10 system default \( un accelerated \) ! xset default glacial ! xset 0 10 programming thoughts joe english \( joe trystero art com \) speed applications 're developing , tons things stick motif programs , n't set resources individual buttons , labels , lists , et al use whatever resource highest level manager widget , stick fonts possible better yet , n't use motif 's absolute pig n't create destroy widgets fly try reuse \( avoid many problems buggy toolkits , \) use line width 0 gcs servers makes huge difference compress collapse multiple expose events make difference fast application completely unusable one francois \( kiwi ac \) small remark heard using better malloc function would greatly increase performance xt based applications since use malloc heavily suggested trying malloc , n't find time yet tests small programs malloc free , differences indeed noticeable \( somewhat 5 times faster \) confirmation anyone \? ed andre' beck \( andre beck irs inf tu dresden de \) unnecessary noexpose events people use xcopyarea xcopyplane fastest blit routines , forget reset graphics exposures gc used cause noexpose event every blit , , cases , puts load onto connection forces client run 's event loop thousands xchangegc requests gfx context switching also seen x apps , one gcs created heavily changed xt uses definitely better mechanism , caching sharing lot gcs needed parameters remove load subsequent xchangegc requests connection \( moving toward client startup phase \) say ! \? contributors proposed ideas seem right wall first david b lewis \( day dbl osf org , night david craft uunet uu net \) swap displays someone else run programs machine display locally user runs machine onto display goal reduce context switches operation client server i'm situation easily try , received following confirmation michael salmon \( michael salmon eos ericsson se \) regularly run programs machines notice big difference try run machine reduce net usage usually nice reduce impact intrusion helps lot poor little ss1 16 mb , essential 8 mb casey \( casey gauss llnl gov \) x11 server client competing cpu server run machine really major problem , except x11 client server absolute context thrashing timothy h \( uucp \) firstly relies fact cpu 's mostly idle , x 's cpu usage chances teammate something cpu intensive time small get twice cpu memory available action second factor context switches expensive , using 2 cpu 's halves , pay price due overhead going network , offset cases improved buffering network \( typically 20k vs 4k pipe \) , allowing even fewer context switches sources information volume 8 o'reilly 's x window system series , window system administrator 's book x administrator 's read adrian nye \( adrian ora com \) lot tips performance paper improving x application performance chris peterson sharon chang , issue 3 x resource earlier version paper appeared xhibition 1992 conference proceedings paper absolutely essential reading x programmers author notes list currently maintained art mulder \( art cs ualberta ca \) suggestions , corrections , submission inclusion list gladly accepted layout suggestions comments \( spelling 's ! \) also welcome currently listed contributors various comments suggestions want credited , please tell speedup x faq copyright \( c \) 1993 arthur e mulder may copy document whole part long n't try make money , pretend wrote art mulder \( art cs ualberta ca \) conformed world , department computing science transformed renewal university alberta , edmonton , canada mind , romans 12 2
ics com \( jason \) subject app defaults files keywords app defaults xdefaults nntp posting host sunburn ics com organization integrated computer solutions , inc lines 30 hello , starting bx recieve error message saying cannot load app defaults file check xapplresdir environment variable put file \( app defaults file bx \) directory specified xuserfilesearchpath environment variable n't xuserfilesearchpath environment variable set xuserfilesearchpath directory file using setenv command csh note name ends ad set xuserfilesearchpath bx n ad get app defaults load correctly make sure app defaults file read users , make sure copy link app defaults file exists usr lib x11 app defaults usr openwin lib app defaults , depending system set taken care set resource directory installed bx example let 's say 've installed bx system directory resource set like thanks , ics tech support
whaley sigma kpc com \( ken whaley \) subject xcopyplane question reply nancie neko css gov 's message 14 apr 1993 15 19 05 0400 organization kubota pacific computer inc lines 88 trying use xcopyplane copy single plane depth 8 pixmap depth 1 pixmap everytime try , see absolutely nothing displayed know data depth 8 pixmap becuase checked xcopyarea screen successful getting xcopyplane work use two pixmaps depth 8 problem trying \? \? could someone please scan code segment let know going wrong created xmdrawingarea widget called canvas w id xtwindow \( canvas \) display xtdisplay \( canvas \) screen defaultscreen \( display \) \( display , rootwindow \( display , screen \) , w width , w height , \( display , screen \) \) pixmap1 \( display , rootwindow \( display , screen \) , w width , w height , 1 \) w xcreategc \( display , w id , 0 , null \) w xcreategc \( display , pixmap1 , 0 , null \) code read xwd image omitted set foreground background colors w something 0 1 \? whitepixel blackpixel macros server may return values suitable depth 1 copy one plane depth 1 pixmap xcopyplane \( display , , pixmap1 , w , 0 , 0 , w width , w height , 0 , 0 , 16 \) sure fifth plane data n't \? could different pixel values image , fifth plane \( 16 \) might value \? using depth 1 pixmap , copy screen values foreground fg color values clip x origin 0 values clip origin 0 values clip mask pixmap1 mask xchangegc \( display , w , mask , values \) xfillrectangle \( display , w id , w , 0 , 0 , w width , w height \) want see plane data want better performance , n't use , use pixmap1 stipple rectangle fill many servers stupid handling complex clip lists , turn bitmap clip region hundreds hundreds little clipping rectangles , clips every drawing primitive every one little triangles actually , must also ask faq 's 1 popular reason graphics n't show wait expose event drawing rectangle \? info x11r5 patchlevel 10 motif 1 2 1 sun sparc2 running sunos 4 1 1 thanks advance ! nancie p marin net nancie neko css gov inc mail 445 ct melbourne , fl \( 407 \) 254 fax \( 407 \) 254 kenneth whaley \( 408 \) 748 6347 kubota pacific computer , inc email whaley kpc com 2630 walsh avenue santa clara , ca 95051
beck irzr17 inf tu dresden de \( andre beck \) subject ms windows vs motif \( gui design differences \) , future unix organization dept computer science , tu dresden , germany lines 46 distribution usa reply andre beck irs inf tu dresden de nntp posting host irzr17 inf tu dresden de article ik ctt bellcore com , ik ctt bellcore com \( ik su yoo \) writes aab andy aab com writes aab 1993apr7 uucp pyeatt texaco com \( larry pyeatt \) writes aab deleted look closely motif , see ms windows eye pleasing color texture real difference ms application window contain toplevel children , motif application window launches children onto desktop aab familiar guis , correct \? experience aab x makes think msw behavior easily duplicated aab x11 n't know msw another important difference msw n't window handle sophisticated geometry management \( like \) also , believe windows 3 x 're limited 64k resources \( windows , menus , icons , etc \) imho whole discussion named motif looks like ms totally stupid thing remotely influenced motif window manager , features arrangement buttons menus somewhat similiar ms w agent , however name mwm small part motif , fact , mwm motif work without , one n't like outfit reason , switches another n't influence motif , toolkit widgets write applications , toolkit imho ms w , much features alot goodies ms w interface cannot say porsche looks like vw k fer wheel gear position motif ms w complete different worlds , one element motif world gear wheel position ms w brain inside andre' beck \( abpsoft \) mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de
jessea u013 vp com \( jesse w asher \) subject x version whois \? \? organization varco pruden buildings lines 8 x version whois written \? , ftp \? thanks jesse w asher \( 901 \) 762 6000 varco pruden buildings 6000 poplar ave , suite 400 , memphis , tn internet jessea vpbuild vp com uucp vpbuild ! jessea
kk unisql uucp \( kerry \) subject gui study users want build solutions \? organization internet lines 30 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu visual com ! dbl cs utexas edu cc expo lcs mit edu ! xpert cs utexas edu let point gui based word processors text based language one happens mouse action based , symbol based true , 's beside point fact abstract model gui users , actually abstract model apparent programmer system \( nb users may see , , put aside work hand start thinking like programmer \) i'm saying programmer 's perspective evil , 's , ! saying ui designers must carefully distinguish user programmer conceptual models , must ultimately serve user system , builder system n't recall actual stats , something like 1 5 people categorized symbol manipulator would interesting know meaning basis claim rate , n't think evidence 20 users think like programmers , financial analysts , structural engineers people whose work could characterize primarily symbol manipulation programming , programming required previous point yes , users want build solutions , want programming accomplish
cthulhu sura net \( eric anderson \) subject xlib thread safe \? organization suranet , college park , md , usa , na , earth , milky way lines 26 nntp posting host cthulhu sura net keywords thread safe article alex lcs mit edu gildea expo lcs mit edu \( stephen gildea \) writes , r5 xlib thread safe working see article x resource , issue 5 consortium members multi threaded version soon , part r6 multi threaded xlib version written archie search mt xlib host export lcs mit edu location contrib directory drwxr xr x 512 jul 30 1992 mt xlib location contrib mt xlib 1 1 file rw r r jan 21 14 02 mt xlib ps z file rw r r jan 21 14 03 mt xlib tar z location contrib mt xlib file rw r r jul 30 1992 mt xlib ps z file rw r r jul 30 1992 mt xlib tar z et al eric overhead , without fuss , stars going nine billion names god yes , 're smart shut bride
lusardi cs buffalo edu \( christopher lusardi \) subject system file tmp organization state university new york buffalo comp sci lines 10 nntp posting host cs buffalo edu directory x11 unix tmp \? start x , created system directory n't created root , contains empty file \( x0 \) owned , lot au music ftp sounds sdsu edu , cat file au dev audio \( ub library catalog telnet bison acsu buffalo edu \( doubt ask xarchie , , \)
dsc3jfs \( john f \) subject change text cursor xterm organization speaking national naval medical center lines 20 nntp posting host med navy mil x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 finished building x11r5 386 running interactive unix \( \) problem xterm font larger characters types , cursor seems large , splits 1 2 reverse video , 1 2 outline block \( changes pointer moved window \) trying use fonts \( p fonts \) way changing appearence block cursor xterm \? thanks john f windows nt , os 2 90 's electronic learning , inc c , cobol 21st century bethesda , md use ada , unix , socially dsc3jfs med navy mil unacceptable systems dsc3jfs med navy mil \( flame , i'm expos fan need say \? \) disclaimer package
ct com \( harry j \) subject xwd nntp posting host 144 54 64 38 organization international , inc distribution na lines 13 trying run xwd sun sparcstation ipx sunos 4 1 2 openwindows 3 0 using motif window manager unsuccessful using xwd motif get following xwd xwd dmp x error failed request \( invalid pixmap window parameter \) major opcode failed request 73 \( x \) resource id failed request serial number failed request 213 current serial number output stream 213 anyone insight \?
coe leopard cs uidaho edu \( mike coe \) subject window manager organization users student coe organization lines 19 distribution world nntp posting host leopard cs uidaho edu currently use window manager called similar hp 's vuewm \( e multiple workspaces \) motif based window manager feature memory pig like vue \? mike michael l coe mind terrible thing laboratory applied logic university idaho coe leopard cs uidaho edu snake cs uidaho edu
rgooch rp csiro au \( richard gooch \) subject x11r5 open look organization csiro division radiophysics australia telescope national facility lines 16 article 1993apr12 82 vax af mil , bonds vax af mil writes reposting sure first post ever made built installed x11r5 sparcstation 2 aim run mit x server retain openlook window manager sure uncommon , want make sure change delete everything need instance , start xdm rc local , get rid xnews \? openlook window manager source available mit contrib tapes export lcs mit edu would suggest building , rather using version openwindows olwm v3 regards , richard gooch
k9 rose hulman edu \( leslie f donaldson \) subject problems using graphic context athena widgets organization rose hulman institute technology lines 15 distribution world nntp posting host k9 cs rose hulman edu keywords athena , colormaps , graphic contex creating graphics program using athena widgets use xlib routines install custom graphics contex obtaining display , window variables xtwindowofobject \( \) \( \) object one sub widgets problem occurs whenever button pressed menu selected graphic contex orginal one tried moving allocation graphic context allocation buttons nothing changed manipulation calling xtappmainloop \( \) thank help leslie donaldson cs rose hulman edu nextwork rose hulman edu
daniels neosoft com \( brad daniels \) subject c toolkit directions \? organization neosoft communications services \( 713 \) 684 5900 lines 41 article 533 imp hellnet org devil loki hellnet org \( gil \) writes trying figure current c toolkit directions simply , 'd like know c toolkit bet use new long term project problem looked motif , , interviews , gina , variations 've also done cursory examination rogue wave 's view h like view h 's abstractions best toolkits mentioned , resulting code looks little like motif , little confidence software catch otherwise result significant longevity code gina allows write code looks great deal like motif also makes interesting use inheritance , resulting code almost motif like , certainly significantly less verbose equivalent c code interviews looks promising , n't found free version motif support , i'm confident widely interviews motif support adopted , \( \) specific motif support available time libraries produce code less motif like , make sufficient use features c simplify coding task point , inclination write motif manipulation routines c , invoke routines c code using simple abstractions suited specific task later , osf credible standards setting body comes c interface motif , change goo write c choice interfaces leaves code leaves tied abstraction consistent industry directions 's better take standard inferior solution go superior approach leave useless code useless skills years views h library 'd consider right , environment , 'd end spending nearly 5000 use , ca n't justify 's likely cause short term productivity decreases learn new abstraction , unlikely sufficiently long lived solution us reap benefits high end j curve brad brad daniels ` money ca n't buy happiness , daniels neosoft com guess 'll rent n't work neosoft , weird al n't speak employer
daniels neosoft com \( brad daniels \) subject fresco status \? organization neosoft communications services \( 713 \) 684 5900 lines 15 've hearing fresco , sounds like may i'm looking , far release , least kind availability \? similar interviews \? code interviews , code work fresco \? motif \? 've heard mention versions interviews support motif feasible use motif fresco \? information would much appreciated brad brad daniels ` money ca n't buy happiness , daniels neosoft com guess 'll rent n't work neosoft , weird al n't speak employer
daniels neosoft com \( brad daniels \) subject iconize running application \? organization neosoft communications services \( 713 \) 684 5900 lines 14 article csn org doomer teal csn org \( john \) writes 've trying figure way iconize application running motif window manager tried several approaches sending events application 's border window , avail \? anyone done \? tend use achieve effect tried \? brad brad daniels ` money ca n't buy happiness , daniels neosoft com guess 'll rent n't work neosoft , weird al n't speak employer
jbore cosmos shearson com \( joe bore \) subject iconize running application \? reply doomer teal csn org 's message thu , 15 apr 1993 05 35 22 gmt organization lehman brothers lines 39 doesnt matter window mgr running , use x routine \( display , w , screen number \) display display window w int screen number \( xtdisplay \( w \) , xtwindow \( w \) , 0 \) perform want \? \? article csn org doomer teal csn org \( john \) writes newsgroups comp windows x path shearson com ! uupsi ! psinntp ! uunet ! umd edu ! darwin sura net ! wupost ! zaphod mps ohio state edu ! magnus acs ohio state edu ! csn ! teal csn org ! doomer doomer teal csn org \( john \) sender news csn org \( news \) nntp posting host teal csn org organization colorado supernet , inc x newsreader tin 1 1 pl4 date thu , 15 apr 1993 05 35 22 gmt lines 8 've trying figure way iconize application running motif window manager tried several approaches sending events application 's border window , avail \? anyone done \? thanks , doomer '85 joe bore life short code hard jbore shearson com ! uunet ! shearson com ! jbore \( 212 \) 464 , beeper \( 212 \) 396
ndd sunbar mc duke edu \( ned \) subject compiling clients sun ipx organization basic arrhythmia laboratory , duke univ med center , durham , n c lines 19 nntp posting host bal1 mc duke edu originator ndd bal1 i'm trying set ipx another group copied x stuff compiled 4 280 \( runs sunos 4 1 1 \) using gcc 2 1 , things run fine however , find couple bugs , try recompile clients ipx \( runs 4 1 3 \) , get ld undefined symbol know include libxext get rid messages , ca n't figure get ipx 4 280 ideas \? ned \( ndd sunbar mc duke edu \) basic arrhythmia laboratory box , duke university medical center durham , nc 27710 \( 919 \) 660 5111 660 5100
bambi kirk bu oz au \( david j hughes \) subject motif vs athena , etc organization bond university , australia lines 52 berry citr uq oz au \( andrew berry \) writes impression people use motif os vendor supplies x \( sunos users excluded \) , similar look feel ms windows os 2 pm personally , also prefer look feel motif \( flames please opinion \) seeing motif adopted sun , ibm , hp \( ca n't remeber members recent announcement \) , i'm sure 'll see virtually every workstation \( ie sun , ibm , hp dec must make vast majority hardware \) also concerned prevalence motif , particularly point view writing obtaining free software linux 386bsd communities grow , however , think motif lose grip , least non commercial marketplace ports motif 386bsd linux available fee 100 cost recovery person bought rights redistribute activity bsd linux news groups pertaining motif high wonder also cause divergence commercial non commercial software \( ie get free software using athena openlook widget sets , get commercial software using motif widget sets \) ca n't see every workstation come motif default buy 100 free unix platforms , ca n't see causing major problems side note x based code writing \( distribute freely completed \) based motif also look feel point view like best \( flames one please \) bambi david j hughes bambi bu oz au senior network programmer comms development operation australia \( 61 75 \)
alex vuse vanderbilt edu \( alexander p zijdenbos \) subject sunview x originator alex nntp posting host organization vanderbilt university school engineering , nashville , tn , usa distribution usa lines 16 doubt old question , n't find answer faqs could find , goes sunview application want convert x \( openlook , , whatever \) remember hearing quite time ago tools accomplish task \) \? b \) public domain \? c \) good , e \) advantages interface \? thanks , alex
derrick j brashear db74 andrew cmu edu subject operation ol v wm organization sophomore , civil engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 11 nntp posting host po5 andrew cmu edu operation documented man pages olwm olvwm however , ca n't get work either line xdefaults openwindows keyboardcommands full n't rebound keys missing something \?
rainer sun3 eeam elin co \( rainer hochreiter \) subject x server multi screen organization elin energeanwendung ges b h lines 24 nntp posting host sun3 eeam elin co x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 hi xperts , simple questions 've seen lot different terms , seem mean thing give exact definition terms mean \) multi screen \) multi headed \) multi display \) x server zaphod mode limit many screens displays single server handle \( articel read something upper limit 12 \) \? capability called , want move cursor one screen display another hints welcome thanks , rainer rainer hochreiter telephone 43 \( 1 \) 89100 3961 elin energieanwendung gesmbh telefax 43 \( 1 \) 89100 3387 penzingerstr 76 1141 wien , austria europe e mail rainer elin co
rvloon cv ruu nl \( ronald van loon \) subject motif mailing list interest \? originator rvloon cv ruu nl nntp posting host cv ruu nl organization university utrecht , 3d computer vision research group lines 26 hello motif world , days ago posted announcement update motif got several requests send bindings per e mail , know several people using motif , probably number people aware also using motif question many people would interested join mailing list , people ask questions motif , swap stories , give new ideas new directions improvements bindings would benefit user community , well give insight people would like see added motif motif still much voluntary project , way make list priorities , order things added , changed 're interested joining mailing list , please take time reply message , tell sufficient interest , say 20 people , mailing list set site , post announcement newly created list newsgroups ronald van loon theory , difference \( rvloon cv ruu nl \) theory practice 3dcv group , utrecht netherlands practice however ,
stolk fwi uva nl \( bram \) subject creating 8 bit windows 24 bit display \? organization fwi , university amsterdam lines 75 nntp posting host carol fwi uva nl greetings , using x server provides 3 visuals pseudocolor 8 bit , truecolor 24 bit directcolor 24 bit problem occurs try create window visual different visual parent \( uses default visual \) xlib reference guide 'o reilly one read section , something like current implementation x11 using visual parent 's , sure create find suitable colourmap used window attributes creating , else badmatch occurs warning , strangely enough , mentioned newer editions x11r5 guides however , even pass along suitable colourmap , still get badmatch create window non default visual code looks like cut 'll destroy crt window create 8bit window display \( dpy , width , height \) display dpy int width , height window win xvisualinfo vinfo xsetwindowattributes attr fprintf \( stderr , opening 8 bit window n \) \( ! \( dpy , defaultscreen \( dpy \) , 8 , pseudocolor , vinfo \) \) fprintf \( stderr , display ca n't handle 8 bit pseudocolor n \) exit \( 1 \) fprintf \( stderr , using visual x n , vinfo visual \) cmap xcreatecolormap \( dpy , defaultrootwindow \( dpy \) , vinfo visual , \) \( dpy , false \) \( dpy , cmap \) line gives result attr colormap cmap win xcreatewindow \( dpy , defaultrootwindow \( dpy \) , 10 , 10 , width , height , copyfromparent , border width 8 , depth inputoutput , class vinfo visual , visual cwcolormap , attr \) return win cut 'll destroy crt executing piece code results badmatch error anybody knows \? , please drop line take care , bram stolk stolk fwi uva nl
cleveland freenet edu \( uucp \) subject xwd gif conversions reply cleveland freenet edu \( shane thomas \) distribution na organization institute lines 14 hello , anyone know source code get either create window dumps gif format , convert xwd \( x window dump \) file gif \? really could format manipulate dos , e pcx , bmp , etc later , shane cleveland freenet edu uucp rutgers ! devon ! ! god bless pagans h simpson
claes polaris \( heinz josef claes \) subject german keyboard , x11r5 sparc nntp posting host polaris informatik uni de organization uni x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 8 sparc 12 german type 4 keyboard anybody patch x11r5 \? thanks advance heinz josef claes email claes tigger turbo uni de
brown ftms uucp \( vidiot \) subject printing ascii 128 reply brown ftms uucp \( vidiot \) organization vidiot 's hangout lines 19 article noose ecn purdue edu ecn purdue edu \( \) writes could tell print characters ascii 127 laser printer \? thrilled able create screen , enthusiasm somewhat died due well , information required 1 \) computer using \? 2 \) operating system using \? 3 \) kind printer using \? \) postscript \? b \) hp pcl \? etc harvard ucbvax ! uwvax ! astroatc ! ftms ! brown uu2 psi com ! ftms ! brown rutgers internet brown wi extrel com ftms ! brown astroatc uucp cs wisc edu
hess swt1 informatik uni hamburg de \( hauke hess \) subject xwindows always opaque summary way parent window childs \? keywords xwindow , parent child relation organization university hamburg , germany distribution comp lines 9 hi , wonder possible parent window paint area childs , could possible implement across multiple xwindows select objects displayed one window \? hauke
pfuetz igd fhg de \( matthias pfuetzner \) subject available memory xserver get actual size \? organization zentrum fuer , darmstadt , frg lines 25 hello everybody ! little question due features \( pex , drag drop \) many applications linked example motif 1 2 instead motif 1 1 need memory xserver x terminals limited memory \( normally swapping possible \) question possibility determine via x protocol calls size free memory available xserver \? one determine example whether start pex application css client side server side \( enough memory \) please reply via e mail , 'll summarize ! , matthias matthias pfuetzner work 49 6151 155 150 home 49 6151 6100 darmstadt , frg , 7 73 pfuetzner igd fhg de , pfuetzner uucp keith packard said r5 different r4 's changed release number \)
informatik uni erlangen de \( klaus \) subject enhancement \? organization csd , university erlangen reply informatik uni erlangen de nntp posting host informatik uni erlangen de lines 8 anybody use one wasp \? please e mail , n't read group longer thanks advance , klaus klaus e mail informatik uni erlangen de
clark thinker csee usf edu \( matthew clark \) subject changing olwm icons organization university south florida , department computer science engineering lines 8 distribution world reply clark thinker csee usf edu \( matthew clark \) nntp posting host 131 247 2 37 wondering 's possible change window icons olwm uses things like xterm defaults pretty lame answer \( find one \) would appreciated thanks matt clark
dealy narya gsfc nasa gov \( brian dealy csc \) subject fresco status \? organization nasa goddard space flight center lines 34 distribution world nntp posting host narya gsfc nasa gov originator dealy narya gsfc nasa gov issue 5 x resource \( published proceedings 7th annual x technical conference \) paper mark chuck price titled building distributed interfaces fresco summary describes fresco \( formerly known xc \) x consortium effort without complete review paper , 'll mention goals stated one section article effort goal providing next generation toolkit functionality beyond xt toolkit xlib features want fresco include lightweight objects , interviews glyphs structured graphics resolution independence natural c programming interface edit place embedding distributed user interface components multithreading means captures complete content paper conclusions sections mentions rough draft specification available early 93 , schedule \( paper presented jan 93 \) complete sample implementation affiliated people places mentioned brian dealy 301 572 8267 knowing 's dealy kong gsfc nasa gov 's important , 's knowing ! uunet ! dftsrv ! kong ! dealy 's b dylan brian dealy 301 572 8267 knowing 's dealy kong gsfc nasa gov 's important , 's knowing ! uunet ! dftsrv ! kong ! dealy 's b dylan
dealy narya gsfc nasa gov \( brian dealy csc \) subject xwindows always opaque organization nasa goddard space flight center lines 57 distribution comp nntp posting host narya gsfc nasa gov keywords xwindow , parent child relation originator dealy narya gsfc nasa gov article hess swt1 , hess swt1 informatik uni hamburg de \( hauke hess \) writes hi , wonder possible parent window paint area childs , could possible implement across multiple xwindows select objects displayed one window \? hauke specify rootwindow creating gc may use xlib draw multiple windows application something similar rubber banding move \( disp data , xc crosshair \) geom vals foreground grey dark geom vals plane mask geom vals line width 0 geom vals function gxxor geom vals mode mask geom xcreategc \( disp data , root , mask , geom vals \) later move rubber band bands using following logic void move bands \( int delt , int delt \) stuff deleted \( disp data , root , geom , sele pntr , sele pntr , sele pntr , sele pntr \) old one sele pntr delt sele pntr delt sele pntr delt sele pntr delt \( disp data , root , geom , sele pntr , sele pntr , sele pntr , sele pntr \) draw new one stuff deleted hope helps brian dealy 301 572 8267 knowing 's dealy kong gsfc nasa gov 's important , 's knowing ! uunet ! dftsrv ! kong ! dealy 's b dylan brian dealy 301 572 8267 knowing 's dealy kong gsfc nasa gov 's important , 's knowing ! uunet ! dftsrv ! kong ! dealy 's b dylan
rgooch rp csiro au \( richard gooch \) subject motif vs athena , etc organization csiro division radiophysics australia telescope national facility lines 38 article kirk bu oz au , bambi kirk bu oz au \( david j hughes \) writes also concerned prevalence motif , particularly point view writing obtaining free software linux 386bsd communities grow , however , think motif lose grip , least non commercial marketplace ports motif 386bsd linux available fee 100 cost recovery person bought rights redistribute activity bsd linux news groups pertaining motif high wonder also cause divergence commercial non commercial software \( ie get free software using athena openlook widget sets , get commercial software using motif widget sets \) ca n't see every workstation come motif default buy 100 free unix platforms , ca n't see causing major problems think find active linux 386bsd communities populated enthusiasts would object paying money software otherwise , would probably gone commercial unix important factor linux community source code always available \( probably similar 386bsd community , however , i'm really involved \) many people using linux like stay cutting \( bleeding \) edge ie kernel patches , c library compiler patches come , people like rebuild entire systems prime requirement linux software available gnu style public license hence , linux software uses either athena widgets xview individuals may write software requiring motif , doubt widely adopted regards , richard gooch
rgasch nl oracle com \( robert gasch \) subject expose events organization oracle europe lines 5 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 please excuse previous posting appended thread accident robert
rgasch nl oracle com \( robert gasch \) subject expose events organization oracle europe lines 40 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 posted ago without code excerpts noone able help problem main win win fine , create detail win win , receive 's initial expose events main win win receives event relevent calls main win win xcreatesimplewindow \( mydisplay , defaultrootwindow \( mydisplay \) , myhint x , myhint , myhint width , myhint height , main win line thick , fg , bg \) xsetstandardproperties \( mydisplay , main win win , main win text , main win text , none , argv , argc , myhint \) main win gc xcreategc \( mydisplay , main win win , 0 , 0 \) xmapraised \( mydisplay , detail win win \) \( mydisplay , main win win \) event mask main win pposition psize exposuremask keypressmask flags pposition psize create detail win win following calls \( hints new values \) detail win win xcreatesimplewindow \( mydisplay , defaultrootwindow \( mydisplay \) , myhint x , myhint , myhint width , myhint height , detail win line thick , fg , bg \) xsetstandardproperties \( mydisplay , main win win , detail win text , detail win text , none , argv , argc , myhint \) detail win gc xcreategc \( mydisplay , detail win win , 0 , 0 \) xmapraised \( mydisplay , detail win win \) event mask flags identical main win 's flags event mask anybody idea initial expose events detail win win received main win win receives event 'd love hear everything works great must detail i'm overseeing thanks tips robert rgasch nl oracle com
rgasch nl oracle com \( robert gasch \) subject delayed expose events organization oracle europe lines 44 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 posted ago without code excerpts noone able help problem main win win fine , create detail win win , receive 's initial expose events main win win receives event relevent calls main win win xcreatesimplewindow \( mydisplay , defaultrootwindow \( mydisplay \) , myhint x , myhint , myhint width , myhint height , main win line thick , fg , bg \) xsetstandardproperties \( mydisplay , main win win , main win text , main win text , none , argv , argc , myhint \) main win gc xcreategc \( mydisplay , main win win , 0 , 0 \) xmapraised \( mydisplay , detail win win \) \( mydisplay , main win win \) event mask main win pposition psize exposuremask keypressmask flags pposition psize create detail win win following calls \( hints new values \) detail win win xcreatesimplewindow \( mydisplay , defaultrootwindow \( mydisplay \) , myhint x , myhint , myhint width , myhint height , detail win line thick , fg , bg \) xsetstandardproperties \( mydisplay , main win win , detail win text , detail win text , none , argv , argc , myhint \) detail win gc xcreategc \( mydisplay , detail win win , 0 , 0 \) xmapraised \( mydisplay , detail win win \) event mask flags identical main win 's flags event mask anybody idea initial expose events detail win win received main win win receives event 'd love hear everything works great must detail i'm overseeing thanks tips robert rgasch nl oracle com ps message accidentally appended expose events thread sorry confusion caused
christy cs concordia ca \( christy \) subject x11r5 gateway2000 organization computer science , concordia university , montreal , quebec lines 15 hi , got gateway 4dx 33v trying configure x11r5 anyone done \? specifically , need correct xconfig file entry set graphics card monitor 15 color crystalscan monitor vesa local bus ati ultra pro 1mb vram video card help extremely appreciated thanks advance please send replies christy alex qc ca christy
mbell csc liv ac uk \( mike bell \) subject cursor size problems organization computer science , liverpool university lines 19 nntp posting host jed csc liv ac uk apologies read one solved one yet i'm posting ! sorry \) i'm problems creating cursor bigger 64x64 , i'm using motif 1 1 x11r4 running hp ux 8 07 functions return valid results cursor appears bitmap bigger aforementioned size tried using following code unsigned int w , h xquerybestcursor \( xtdisplay \( \) , xtwindow \( \) , 72 , 71 , w , h \) return nearest size require however returns 72 71 width height respectively wrong \? get round problem ! ! thanks advance mike
mark res utc com \( mark \) subject need pd x plot package organization internet lines 139 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu spf cbnewsl cb att com cc xpert expo lcs mit edu steve steve blue feather farm spf cbnewsl cb att com writes steve folks , steve i'm looking public domain x plotting package x steve need basic capabilities \( axes , labels , log linear , c \) steve 's hard imagine someone put thing steve together , i'm hoping avoid reinventing wheel steve thanks leads ! steve steve might take look plplot version 4 \( actually beta v5 0 \) found anonymous ftp ph utexas edu , pub plplot directory mark mark email united technologies research center mark res utc com east hartford , ct mbs res utc com mbs utrc res utc com readme file version 4 plplot distribution plplot scientific plotting package many systems , small \( micro \) large \( super \) alike despite small size , enough power satisfy users , including standard x plots , plots , log log plots , contour plots , 3d plots , mesh plots , bar charts pie charts multiple graphs \( different sizes \) may placed single page multiple lines graph different line styles , widths colors supported virtually infinite number distinct area fill patterns may used almost 1000 characters extended character set includes four different fonts , greek alphabet host mathematical , musical , symbols fonts scaled size various effects many different output device drivers available \( system dependent \) , including portable metafile format renderer plplot package freely distributable , public domain plplot source code , except header files files explicitly granting permission , may used commercial software package without consent authors allowed encouraged include plplot object library header files commercial package provided \( 1 \) explicitly stated plplot library freely available , \( 2 \) full copyrights plplot package displayed somewhere documentation package welcome suggestions improve code , especially form user contributed enhancements bug fixes plplot used published papers , please include acknowledgment citation work , help us continue improving plplot also , please remember plplot commercial product , cannot expected offer kind support commercial product may great interest extending plplot fixing bugs , principal authors afford work part time improvements necessarily focus help us get work done plplot written c , enabling run many platforms practically without modification fortran programs may use stub routines provided handle c fortran interface without modification user program c programs required include header file plplot h see documentation details main documentation plplot doc directory form several tex files please consult additional information \( \) unfortunately documentation tends lag actual improvements code , n't surprised known features explained consult see list recent changes present , plplot known work following systems unix sunos ix hp ux unicos dg ux ultrix sysv linux amiga exec ms dos os 2 next information get use plplot system , see appendices plplot manual system specific documentation appropriate sys system directory become subscriber plplot mailing list , send request plplot request dino ph utexas edu credits plplot result effort many people , impractical list contributors currently supporting otherwise responsible package present form include maurice lebrun please send comments , flames , patches , etc , responsible plplot kernel development well work metafile , xwindow , xterm , postscript , tektronix , amiga drivers email mjl fusion ph utexas edu usmail dr maurice lebrun institute fusion studies university texas austin , tx 78712 geoff furnish please send questions regarding ms dos os 2 drivers geoff email furnish fusion ph utexas edu usmail geoff furnish institute fusion studies university texas austin , tx 78712 tony richardson creator plplot 2 6b , 3 0 please send questions regarding installation plplot next tony email amr egr duke edu usmail tony richardson tony richardson 184 electrical engineering chapel hill road apt 41 duke university durham , nc durham , nc ph 919 684 ph 919 493
kerr ux1 cso uiuc edu \( stan kerr \) subject macx 1 2 color problem summary problem macx 1 2 painting wrong colors keywords mac x color window macx organization university illinois urbana lines 13 peculiar color problem macx , apple 's macintosh x server 'd like know others seen problem 's happened current version \( 1 2 \) , version 1 1 7 types client windows displayed , parts windows wrong color window moved slightly , forcing server repaint , repainted correct colors n't happen xterm windows , happened graphic windows motif clients stan kerr computing communications services office , u illinois urbana phone 217 333 email uiuc edu
cs umr edu \( eric lin lu \) subject info wanted x security holes nntp posting host cs umr edu organization university missouri rolla lines 22 hi , anyone compile list x security holes \? \? yes , please send copy \? \? wrong group , please point right one thanks ! ! btw , list n't contain info use holes \? instead , need info detect holes , seal holes , monitor activities possible info welcomed thanks ! ! eric grad student always enemy lin lu \( eric \) correctness bertrand russell cs umr edu univ missouri rolla
straw cam nist gov \( mike \) subject need help athena text widget organization national institute standards technology , gaithersburg , md lines 24 want create single line text widget entering small amount text want fixed width , horizontal scrollbar scrolls automatically user types order keep insertion point visible trying two problems addition horizontal scrollbar make text widget taller , instead seems cover part text scrollbar scroll automatically user types text order keep insertion point visible help appreciated mike name michael tele \( 301 \) 975 usmail national institute standards arpa straw cam nist gov technology uucp uunet ! cme ! straw rm b 146 , bldg 225 gaithersburg , md
rim bme ri ccf org \( robert \) subject widget displaying images nntp posting host marvin organization cleveland clinic foundation , cleveland , oh distribution na lines 12 try teach write widget \( perhaps \) invent wheel pd widget displays \( example \) 8 bit grey level image fashion athena plotter widget used display plot \? robert , phd rim bme ri ccf org department biomedical engineering cleveland clinic foundation voice 216 445 cleveland , ohio fax 216 444
beck irzr17 inf tu dresden de \( andre beck \) subject dec pixmap size organization dept computer science , tu dresden , germany lines 28 distribution world reply andre beck irs inf tu dresden de nntp posting host irzr17 inf tu dresden de article 1964 igd fhg de , haase igd fhg de \( helmut haase \( \) \) writes 've got problem concerning maximum size x pixmaps decwindows using decstation 5000 200 running ultrix v4 2 \( rev 96 \) system 2 uws v4 2 \( rev 272 \) \( decwindows \) color display 1280x1024 pixels hardware \( hp , sgi \) able allocate much larger pixmaps anyone similar problems know system allow larger pixmaps \? welcome please send mail haase igd fhg de dec px pxg servers , known 3d accelerators boards local memory limited slow handle , thus set limit brain inside andre' beck \( abpsoft \) mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de
dev hollywood acsc com \( \) subject circular motif widgets organization acsc , inc lines 7 distribution world nntp posting host hollywood acsc com support round circular widgets motif 's next release \? 'd love circular knob widget could used instead slider cheers ! dm
mike hopper virginia edu \( michael chapman \) subject x11r5 gateway2000 organization itc uva community access unix internet project lines 25 article daily planet concordia ca christy cs concordia ca \( christy \) writes hi , got gateway 4dx 33v trying configure x11r5 anyone done \? specifically , need correct xconfig file entry set graphics card monitor 15 color crystalscan monitor vesa local bus ati ultra pro 1mb vram video card thanks advance n't operating system come x \? sysv usually far know 'd best contact people bought ths os 're running linux something similar , good luck \) please send replies christy alex qc ca christy voice reason midst mike chapman , higher trapped human body aka political correctness tool mentally raise taxes middle class unknown
pa dec com \( joel \) subject cursor size problems organization dec western software laboratory lines 37 distribution world reply pa dec com \( joel \) nntp posting host pa dec com article compsci liverpool ac uk , mbell csc liv ac uk \( mike bell \) writes apologies read one solved one yet i'm posting ! sorry \) i'm problems creating cursor bigger 64x64 , i'm using motif 1 1 x11r4 running hp ux 8 07 functions return valid results cursor appears bitmap bigger aforementioned size tried using following code unsigned int w , h xquerybestcursor \( xtdisplay \( \) , xtwindow \( \) , 72 , 71 , w , h \) return nearest size require however returns 72 71 width height respectively wrong \? get round problem ! ! workstation 're using hardware cursor support \? server generate software cursor generally tell difference using cursor lot 's screen activity , 's probably software cursor hardware cursor , think 're probably battling bug hp 's x server i'm familiar hardware cursor chips display cursors greater 64x64 's quite possible server echoing preferred cursor size without actually checking vaguely recall old mit server revisions reality 're probably stuck 64x64 maximum size cursor regardless server returns joel
derrick j brashear db74 andrew cmu edu subject virtual mouse open look x11 \? organization sophomore , civil engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 6 nntp posting host andrew cmu edu virtual mouse simulation ol v wm 3 x available x11r5 \? 've told i'm setting right resource , yet continues work i'm running 3 \( olwm 3 \) sun 3 , x11r5 pl 22
jlong bnr ca \( john long \) subject need xman source reply jlong bnr ca \( john long \) organization bell northern research ltd lines 3 get xman source \? would rather get xman hp 9000 700 , source
kbw helios ath epa gov \( kevin b weinrich \) subject need xrdb xdefaults unchanged \? organization computer sciences corp lines 38 distribution world nntp posting host helios ath epa gov i'm x resource problem using brian wilson 's wscrawl 2 0 \( wonderful interactive conferencing program , way \) i'm running openwindows 3 0 sparc 1 os 4 1 3 following defaults xdefaults file \( among many others \) wscrawl kevin wscrawl true wscrawl true wscrawl false wscrawl background wscrawl foreground yellow wscrawl draw area frame foreground blue wscrawl pointer naturally , exited server restarted adding lines xdefaults run following cmdtool \( pwd home dir \) xrdb xdefaults start wscrawl , defaults used properly wonderful , yes \? except ca n't get operative except manually invoking mentioned xrdb command try xrdb xdefaults defaults wo n't take , tried change xrdb call xinitrc file xrdb home xdefaults xrdb home xdefaults go tried adding xrdb home kbw xdefaults beginning end openwin init file still go notions gives \? thanks help kevin weinrich computer sciences corp kbw helios ath epa gov
ajaffe oddjob uchicago edu \( andrew jaffe \) subject key definitions emacs x organization university chicago , astronomy astrophysics lines 42 hi use emacs want customize keyboard better set stuff emacs keymap define keys , access certain keys x terminal 's keyboard ca n't get e g f10 , home , end , , seem either keycode feeling ca n't fixed emacs , need xmodmap stuff someone help \? way , 've checked x faq posted similar message gnu emacs help response currently following emacs file \( inside \) \( \( string match xterm \( term \) \) done aj 8 92 n't know \( xterm map \( make sparse keymap \) keymap xterm special keys \) \( define key esc map prefix \) \( prefix xterm map \) keys f1 \( define key xterm map line \) f1 \( define key xterm map 'what line \) f2 \( define key xterm map \) f3 \( define key xterm map string \) f4 \( define key xterm map 'end line \) f5 \( define key xterm map line \) f6 \( define key xterm map \) f7 \( define key xterm map line \) f8 \( define key xterm map 'end line \) f9 \( define key xterm map \) \( define key xterm map \) keys f10 , , , etc \? \? \? \? \? \? \? ca n't get keys \( define key xterm map 1z 'set mark command \) \) \) andrew jaffe ajaffe oddjob uchicago edu astronomy astrophysics , u chicago ellis ave \( 312 \) 702 chicago , il 60637 1433 \( 312 \) 702 fax
klee synoptics com \( ken lee \) subject property problems reply klee synoptics com organization synoptics communications , santa clara ca lines 19 nntp posting host bugsbunny synoptics com article \( \) , tay mcs dundee ac uk \( bill smart \) writes get number back , client xinternatom \( display , , true \) \( display , defaultrootwindow \( display \) , , 0 , , false , xa window , return type , return format , nitems return , bar , return place \) appears get back something valid \( right number \) always seems return number , regardless window number stored property return place probably incorrect pointer , integer \( \) memory , copies data , returns pointer memory free memory 're done ken lee , klee synoptics com
viola asterix uni muenster de \( j rg viola \) subject looking xt xaw organization universitaet , muenster , germany lines 8 nntp posting host asterix uni muenster de want compile xdvi later perhaps emacs 19 dec ultrix machine x installed unfortunately , xt xaw libs headers missing get without compile whole mit distribution \? reply email viola uni muenster de thanks advance
dla se05 wg2 waii com \( doug acker \) subject problem libxmu sunos5 1 gcc reply acker wg2 waii com organization western geophysical exploration products lines 52 nntp posting host se05 wg2 waii com using r5 sunos5 patch posted export optionally apply patch olit libxmu compiles fine try use clients \( e bmtoa twm \) , get errors figure wrong gcc fpcc struct return twm gram lex add window gc list twm parse menus events resize util version cursor icons o2 r usr wgep x11r5 sos5 lib ld run path ld run path l lib xmu lxmu l lib xt l extensions lib l lib x l extensions lib lxext l extensions lib lxext l lib x lx11 l usr wgep x11r5 sos5 lib lsocket lnsl ld warning file extensions lib libxext attempted multiple inclusion file libxext undefined first referenced symbol file lib xmu libxmu lib xmu libxmu lib xmu libxmu lib xmu libxmu lib xmu libxmu lib xmu libxmu xtmalloc lib xmu libxmu lib xmu libxmu lib xmu libxmu lib xmu libxmu lib xmu libxmu xtname lib xmu libxmu lib xmu libxmu xtappsettypeconverter lib xmu libxmu lib xmu libxmu lib xmu libxmu xtfree lib xmu libxmu xtdestroywidget lib xmu libxmu xtgetvalues lib xmu libxmu lib xmu libxmu lib xmu libxmu lib xmu libxmu xtwidgettoapplicationcontext lib xmu libxmu lib xmu libxmu lib xmu libxmu xtwindowofobject lib xmu libxmu xtvasetvalues lib xmu libxmu lib xmu libxmu lib xmu libxmu xtresolvepathname lib xmu libxmu ld fatal symbol referencing errors output written twm error code 1 douglas l acker western geophysical exploration products division western atlas international inc litton dresser company internet acker wg2 waii com voice \( 713 \) 964 6128
tdb uu se \( \) subject help event propagation organization department scientific computing , uppsala university lines 19 following problem really bugging , would appreciate help create two windows w1 \( child root \) event mask buttonpressmask keypressmask w2 \( child w1 \) propagate mask buttonpressmask keypressmask keypress events w2 discarded , events fall w1 , set w2 fyi , i'm using xnews olvwm something fundamentally wrong \? n
mjo iao ford com \( mike o'connor \) subject motif vs athena , etc organization official spokesperson ford motor company lines 21 reply mike o'connor mjo fmsrl7 srl ford com nntp posting host iao ford com article 1993apr16 nrao edu rgooch rp csiro au \( richard gooch \) writes really involved \) many people using linux like stay cutting \( bleeding \) edge ie kernel patches , c library compiler patches come , people like rebuild entire systems prime requirement linux software available gnu style public license hence , linux software uses either athena widgets xview individuals may write software requiring motif , doubt widely adopted shameless plug xaw3d widgets make athena much nicer alternative stock mit athena code mike michael j o'connor internet mjo fmsrl7 srl ford com ford motor company , uucp ! fmsrl7 ! ! mjo , bldg 1 3001 phone 1 \( 313 \) 248 , mi fax 1 \( 313 \) 323
mahan tgv com \( patrick l mahan \) subject sunview x organization internet lines 26 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu , alex vuse vanderbilt edu doubt old question , n't find answer faqs could find , goes sunview application want convert x \( openlook , , whatever \) remember hearing quite time ago tools accomplish task \) \? b \) public domain \? c \) good , e \) advantages interface \? simple answer obtain use xview xview one one replacement sunview already provided sun running openwindows also free available part contrib side mit x11r5 release patrick l mahan tgv window washer mahan tgv com waking person unnecessarily considered lazarus long capital crime first offense , notebooks lazarus long
tmcconne sedona intel com \( tom mcconnell \) subject motif vs athena , etc organization intel corporation lines 44 distribution world nntp posting host thunder intel com originator tmcconne sedona article kirk bu oz au , bambi kirk bu oz au \( david j hughes \) writes berry citr uq oz au \( andrew berry \) writes ports motif 386bsd linux available fee 100 cost recovery person bought rights redistribute activity bsd linux news groups pertaining motif high wonder also cause divergence commercial non commercial software \( ie get free software using athena openlook widget sets , get commercial software using motif widget sets \) ca n't see every workstation come motif default buy 100 free unix platforms , ca n't see causing major problems let add another concerns yes , buy port motif cheap , cannot get source cheap , hence limited using whatever x libraries motif port compiled \( least older versions motif told motif 1 2 used x , seen \) currently , x11r5 running eight different unix platforms , three came motif three , unable use x11r5 libraries build motif clients , get link errors vendor supplied port motif x11r5 anticipate problem x11r6 becomes available result cannot build motif clients rely x11r5 , since motif compiled x11r5 true , could buy another port motif , sort ruins whole idea free , n't \? cheers , tom mcconnell tom mcconnell internet tmcconne sedona intel com intel , corp c3 91 phone \( 602 \) 554 8229 5000 w chandler blvd opinions expressed one chandler , az right mind would claim
mishra cs sunysb edu \( mishra \) subject image processing packages x keywords medical informatics nntp posting host organization state university new york , stony brook lines 14 looking package implements standard image processing functions \( reading writing standard formats \) , clipping , zoom , etc implemented x public domain private packages interest particular application area mind medical imaging , package meant general context would acceptable please reply summarize net general interest mishra mishra sbcs sunysb edu
klee synoptics com \( ken lee \) subject xcopyplane question reply klee synoptics com organization synoptics communications , santa clara ca lines 13 nntp posting host bugsbunny synoptics com article neko css gov , nancie neko css gov \( nancie p marin \) writes trying use xcopyplane copy single plane depth 8 pixmap depth 1 pixmap everytime try , see absolutely nothing displayed know data depth 8 pixmap becuase checked xcopyarea screen code fragment looks reasonable , logic valid \? something appears 8 bit deep pixmap n't mean every bit plane contains data try plane \? ken lee , klee synoptics com
hsteve carina unm edu \( \) subject changing dpy max request size \? organization university new mexico , albuquerque lines 17 nntp posting host carina unm edu article world std com oj world std com \( oliver jones \) writes article netnews upenn edu cis upenn edu \( \) writes anyone know change maximum request size server ordinarily set highest value underlying os yes , n't want change value 're running image type applications steve hsteve hydra unm edu , hsteve carina unm edu say vms ! !
hsteve carina unm edu \( \) subject interface access separate appl organization university new mexico , albuquerque lines 27 nntp posting host carina unm edu article expo lcs mit edu dbohdal jaguar ess harris com writes dear xperts 's problem designing several related x applications \( one separate executable \) 'd like build single control window would allow user access application \( instead locate correct icon \) control window would contain button application pressing , application 's main window would appear would also like use application 's button color status indicator anyone done good ideas \? \? separate executables seems like communications nightmare , maybe i'm wrong 'd appreciate ideas ! i'm using x11r5 motif 1 2 1 thanks , dbohdal jaguar ess harris com think two different methods could try 1 \) use fork 2 \) use system called program i'm assuming 're running unix os course steve hsteve hydra unm edu , hsteve carina unm edu say vms ! !
mdavcr mda ca \( phil gray \) subject opinions galaxy \? summary anybody negative experiences \? keywords gui builders , evaluation organization macdonald dettwiler associates lines 21 currently evaluating gui builders , initially motif wish flexible portable popular names \( uimx , teleuse , xvt etc \) impressed seen galaxy visix spoken current users list supplied visix \( happy users would expect \) , seen favourable comments net however , since fairly expensive get evaluation license visix , would like query net negative experiences galaxy anybody evaluate prefer another tool use galaxy regret find mis features \? , phil phil gray voice \( 604 \) 278 3411 macdonald dettwiler fax \( 604 \) 278 commerce parkway richmond , bc , canada v6v 2j3 mda ca ! uunet ! van bc ! mdavcr !
dev hollywood acsc com \( \) subject keyboard organization acsc , inc lines 11 distribution world nntp posting host hollywood acsc com two motif widgets would like control one via keyboard mouse set keyboard focus first widget , soon click mouse second one , lose keyboard focus first one could kind soul show \? thanks dm dev hollywood acsc com
cus cam ac uk \( nick \) subject key definitions emacs x organization u cambridge , england lines 28 nntp posting host cus cam ac uk article 1993apr16 midway uchicago edu ajaffe oddjob uchicago edu \( andrew jaffe \) writes use emacs want customize keyboard better set stuff emacs keymap define keys , access certain keys x terminal 's keyboard ca n't get e g f10 , home , end , , seem either keycode feeling ca n't fixed emacs , need xmodmap stuff someone help \? actually worse think problem , given emacs internal table \( somewhere ! \) defines keys accept , table system dependent use sun hp , cannot get work xmodmap sufficient , least n't worked make work however , get ordinary work , things note emacs hp problem , using exactly xmodmap emacs configuration nick university cambridge computer laboratory , new museums site , street , cambridge cb2 , england email cus cam ac uk tel 44 223 fax 44 223
dla se05 wg2 waii com \( doug acker \) subject problem libxmu sunos5 1 gcc reply acker wg2 waii com organization western geophysical exploration products lines 23 nntp posting host se05 wg2 waii com article wg2 waii com , dla se05 wg2 waii com \( doug acker \) writes using r5 sunos5 patch posted export optionally apply patch olit libxmu compiles fine try use clients \( e bmtoa twm \) , get errors figure wrong gcc fpcc struct return twm gram lex add window gc list twm parse menus events resize util version cursor icons o2 r usr wgep x11r5 sos5 lib ld run path ld run path l lib xmu lxmu l lib xt l extensions lib l lib x l extensions lib lxext l extensions lib lxext l lib x lx11 l usr wgep x11r5 sos5 lib lsocket lnsl ld warning file extensions lib libxext attempted multiple inclusion file libxext undefined first referenced symbol file xtwindowofobject lib xmu libxmu ld fatal symbol referencing errors output written twm error code 1 problem defined douglas l acker western geophysical exploration products division western atlas international inc litton dresser company internet acker wg2 waii com voice \( 713 \) 964 6128
dla se05 wg2 waii com \( doug acker \) subject xterm build problem solaris2 1 reply acker wg2 waii com organization western geophysical exploration products lines 20 nntp posting host se05 wg2 waii com continuing build problems , got stuck build xterm gcc fpcc struct return xterm main input cursor util tabs screen scrollbar button misc data menu o2 r usr wgep x11r5 sos5 lib ld run path ld run path l lib xaw lxaw l lib xmu lxmu l lib xt lxt l extensions lib lxext l lib x lx11 l usr wgep x11r5 sos5 lib lsocket lnsl undefined first referenced symbol file index usr ucblib libtermcap \( termcap \) rindex usr ucblib libtermcap \( termcap \) ld fatal symbol referencing errors output written xterm error code 1 make fatal error command failed target clues help \? douglas l acker western geophysical exploration products division western atlas international inc litton dresser company internet acker wg2 waii com voice \( 713 \) 964 6128
spectrum xerox com \( bob 423 \) subject dynamic changing title bar organization xerox x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 4 looking program insert code allow title bar changed window one already , would appreciate location n't create scratch thanks advance bob xerox
subject mit r5 sun rasterops tc mark comp vuw ac nz \( mark davies \) distribution world organization dept comp sci , victoria uni wellington , new zealand nntp posting host bats comp vuw ac nz lines 9 possible run mit r5 based xserver sun rasterops tc \( 24bit board \) \? patches supporting sun 's 24bit frame buffers rasterops appear something else \? know nothing rasterops might buying one put ipx cheers mark
henne math edu \( leslie r henne \) subject svr4 x binary \( rfd create comp unix sys5 \) organization internet lines 36 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu cc mouse thunder mcrcim mcgill edu article 1993apr15 thunder mcrcim mcgill edu , der mouse wrote seem little confused hackers yell proprietary software hardly motif , objectionable mindset news might wear hacker hat moment , tar news motif brush , brush technical begging everyone 's pardon , slamming motif , necessarily plugging flaming two responding sweet statement rick digibd rick digibd digibd com \( rick richardson \) rick one area microsoft nt big advantage since rick control whole show , issues like rick create incompatible standards happy statement shows mindset inventors companies pleased something works , believe others also happy use remember sunview hot stuff \( , statement , endorsing sun products , experience \) , openwindows became hot stuff , started hearing , mentioned , masses bent destroying anything deemed proprietary , including openwindows mentioned motif breath , sun decided turn attention , hate mr richardson 's position , believe , healthy one , sure hackers soon try flame destroy nt , ever shows , wanting instead everything free , complaining organized structure de facto standards vent frustration brought prevailing winds mrs henne
saturn sdsu edu \( \) subject c c os 2 organization internet lines 9 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu cc saturn sdsu edu hi folks , anybody know good 32 bit c c compiler os 2 supports os 2 api microsoft windows \( maybe windows nt \) \? thanx n , sdsu
fwr8bv fin af mil \( shash chatterjee \) subject sunos4 1 1 audio organization internet lines 21 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu fin lcs mit edu could one please send \( tell ftp \) patches required compile sparcstation phone dialing feature \? using sunos 4 1 1 , therefore n't multimedia h multimedia audio device h associated functions case , mail gateway accepts thanks advance , shash shash chatterjee email fwr8bv fin af mil ec software phone \( 817 \) 763 1495 lockheed fort worth company fax \( 817 \) 777 p box 748 , ft worth , tx
adrian ora com \( adrian nye \) subject imake book review organization o'reilly associates , inc lines 12 reply adrian ora com nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu thanks many offers review book received review copy , please return soon possible system crash lost list people sent ! thanks adrian nye o'reilly associates adrian ora com
d3e758 bucky pnl gov \( je pelkey \) subject multi screen apps window managers originator d3e758 bucky pnl gov organization battelle pacific n w labs lines 50 working project provide emergency management information system keeping classic command control type systems , considering developing dual screen monitor system order provide status board 's monitor number x level questions regarding \( unix systems using x motif platform predominantly sun 's , probably ports rs 6000 well \) assuming standard dual monitor systems configured talking one x display multiple screens , multiple x displays given changing input focus one screen simple tracking mouse one screen \? 's nothing special needs done shift focus screens \? run separate window managers separate screens window managers \? sells multi screen window manager way grab window frame move window one screen next \? way application see multiple screens one logical x plane , hardware provide screen start 0 , 0 \? thoughts difficulties involved designing system capable using either multiple screens single screen \( perhaps running virtual window manager simulate multiple screens instead \) \? assuming major issue rely providing config files specify configuration screen placement window application thoughts suggestions past experience welcome jo pelkey phone \( 509 \) 375 battelle pacific northwest labs fax \( 509 \) 375 mail stop k7 22 email je pelkey pnl gov p box 999 richland , wa
atae spva ph ic ac uk \( ata etemadi \) subject ideal operating system \( death blow unix \) nntp posting host prawn sp ph organization imperial college science , technology , medicine , london , england lines 45 windows nt step forward , much guess dos users think multi tasking really neat \( add puke \) able use 64k memory , major improvement windows users like upgrade facilities unix users take granted windows users use pcs text processing running 3rd party applications anyway operating system features even real issue ideal operating system binary compatible across recognize binaries configure fly , n't bin mac bin dos bin dec bin sun bin hp etc multi cpu use cpus pc w mac dsps n't know single site gone single vendor going trade per h1 ultra fast fft dsp chips note nt runs symmetric multi cpu systems built portable gui graphics tools call thing matter platform display also translate graphics commands fly use pc graphics w workstation x software pc think guis nice essential configurable front end make look like unix dos nt os 2 , run shell scripts command bat files object oriented program easily invent wheel networking scratch application needs access source object code fly words ai capability tight , clean kernel actually understand anyone know something like \? ata \( \) mail dr ata etemadi , laboratory , space atmospheric physics group , imperial college science , technology , medicine , internet arpanet earn bitnet atae spva ph ic ac uk ata c ucl ac uk span spva atae atae
atae spva ph ic ac uk \( ata etemadi \) subject please ignore ideal operating system \( death blow unix \) nntp posting host prawn sp ph organization imperial college science , technology , medicine , london , england lines 1 whoops ! ! wrong group folks
subject trouble compiling x11r5 sunos 4 1 3 nemo dia fi upm es \( francisco j \) organization computer science , clip lab , upm madrid , spain nntp posting host dia fi upm es reply dmm head cfa harvard edu 's message 2 apr 93 21 24 05 gmt lines 21 article 1993apr2 head cfa harvard edu dmm head cfa harvard edu \( david \) writes 've trying compile x11r5 patchlevel 23 sun sparc ipx using sunos 4 1 3 , gcc 2 3 3 problem occurs initial make world gets compiling standard x clients , ca n't seem find libraries right highly suspect program ld updated 4 1 3 yip , problem fix found link static clients , \( btw , used cc \) \( francisco j k nemo email nemo clip dia fi upm es org computer science , clip lab phone 34 1 336 campus n u p del monte , madrid , spain \) \( \)
ca boeing com \( timothy e neto \) subject x server multi screen organization lines 37 rainer sun3 eeam elin co \( rainer hochreiter \) writes hi xperts , simple questions 've seen lot different terms , seem mean thing give exact definition terms mean \) multi screen \) multi headed \) multi display \) x server zaphod mode limit many screens displays single server handle \( articel read something upper limit 12 \) \? capability called , want move cursor one screen display another hints welcome thanks , rainer rainer hochreiter telephone 43 \( 1 \) 89100 3961 elin energieanwendung gesmbh telefax 43 \( 1 \) 89100 3387 penzingerstr 76 1141 wien , austria europe e mail rainer elin co many clients may display server , believe limit would much memory available server allocated server key timothy e neto \( 206 \) 655 1 000 flexibility , ca n't b 's gadget widget works 1 0 0 e mail god flight systems lab , boeing comm aircraft 1 0 0 ideas boeing 's internet fsl ca boeing com 1 000
joel z code com \( joel reymont \) subject motif list organization internet lines 13 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu hi , ! anyone knows motif mailing list \? n't access network news longer motif list alfalfa com thanks , joel joel reymont ! z code software corporation ! e mail joel z code com redwood hwy , suit b 50 , san rafael , ca
savela tel vtt fi \( savela \) subject raster text widgets \( view ! \) , xew 1 3 version organization technical research centre finland lines 18 distribution comp reply savela tel vtt fi \( savela \) nntp posting host tel vtt fi mime version 1 0 content type text plain charset iso 8859 1 content transfer encoding 8bit version 1 3 xew widgets available export lcs mit edu contrib xew 1 3 tar z export lcs mit edu contrib xew 1 3 readme better details , check readme \( extensive details , xew 1 1 ps z , still n't time update one \) new functionality added since 1 2 version raster widget handles expose events slightly intelligently \( really added simple program uses x11r5 athena widgets \) program demo viewer c simple demonstration usage \( copied actually \) savela \( savela tel vtt fi \) , technical research centre finland telecommunications laboratory , 7 b , sf espoo , finland
sta sub org \( frank \) subject xterm build problem solaris2 1 organization news server , , germany lines 22 distribution inet nntp posting host sta sub org dla se05 wg2 waii com \( doug acker \) writes continuing build problems , got stuck build xterm gcc fpcc struct return xterm main input cursor util tabs screen scrollbar button misc data menu o2 r usr wgep x11r5 sos5 lib ld run path ld run path l lib xaw
mouse thunder mcrcim mcgill edu \( der mouse \) subject question window ids keywords windows organization mcgill research centre intelligent machines lines 23 article geology uiuc edu , geology uiuc edu \( walter \) writes given program running workstation x based window system , one pop window running top window mean terminal window invoked one ca n't application may started terminal emulator , terminal emulator may still exist , may condition pop ped top \( eg , may iconified \) even , may want consider virtual root window manager like tvtwm , relevant window portion virtual desktop 's outside real desktop \( \) x terminal emulators provide environment variables giving window id even thing present environment , may want may correspond window different server , example der mouse mouse mcrcim mcgill edu
mouse thunder mcrcim mcgill edu \( der mouse \) subject x server multi screen organization mcgill research centre intelligent machines lines 42 article sgp sun3 eeam elin co , rainer sun3 eeam elin co \( rainer hochreiter \) writes 've seen lot different terms , seem mean thing give exact definition terms mean \) multi screen \) multi headed \) multi display \) x server zaphod mode applied servers , first three fuzzy terms multi headed tends used system multiple monitors , sometimes even multiple screens even 're multiplexed onto monitor \( eg , sun display \) multi screen multi display would , taken strictly , mean different things , since strict meaning multi display would refer system multiple keyboards pointers , 's used probably refers thing multi screen would system provides multiple screens zaphod term applied way mit server switches pointer one screen another sliding side screen limit many screens displays single server handle \( articel read something upper limit 12 \) \? protocol limitation restricts given display 255 screens know server handles multiple displays single , unless possibly r4 server looked upon tcp based system necessarily limit 65535 displays per machine , limitation inherent x read likely talking limit particular implementation \( probably mit one \) claimed limit 12 inherent x , author article business writing x der mouse mouse mcrcim mcgill edu
mouse thunder mcrcim mcgill edu \( der mouse \) subject creating 8 bit windows 24 bit display \? organization mcgill research centre intelligent machines lines 59 article 1993apr16 fwi uva nl , stolk fwi uva nl \( bram \) writes using x server provides 3 visuals pseudocolor 8 bit , truecolor 24 bit directcolor 24 bit lucky dog \) problem occurs try create window visual different visual parent \( uses default visual \) xlib reference guide 'o reilly one read section , something like current implementation x11 using visual parent 's , sure create find suitable colourmap used window attributes creating , else badmatch occurs warning , strangely enough , mentioned newer editions x11r5 guides applies equal force earlier versions presumably recently author \( \) decide important enough mention necessity refers always , 's implicit way requests default attributes new window however , even pass along suitable colourmap , still get badmatch create window non default visual attr colormap cmap win xcreatewindow \( copyfromparent , border width 8 , depth inputoutput , class vinfo visual , visual cwcolormap , attr \) warning read incomplete provide colormap also border default border copyfromparent , valid window 's depth n't match parent 's specify border pixmap correct depth , border pixel , problem go away another problem ca n't find anything indicate copyfromparent makes sense border width parameter xcreatewindow xlib implementation probably defines copyfromparent zero , simplify conversion wire format , unwittingly asking border width zero , due xlib implementation providing stricter type checking \( fair , i'm entirely certain 's possible xlib catch \) der mouse mouse mcrcim mcgill edu
mouse thunder mcrcim mcgill edu \( der mouse \) subject available memory xserver get actual size \? organization mcgill research centre intelligent machines lines 14 article 1965 igd fhg de , pfuetz igd fhg de \( matthias pfuetzner \) writes possibility determine via x protocol calls size free memory available xserver \? even could , answer could date even get \( even grab server , could taken buffering user actions \) try whatever want error indication insufficient server memory available der mouse mouse mcrcim mcgill edu
mouse thunder mcrcim mcgill edu \( der mouse \) subject xwindows always opaque keywords xwindow , parent child relation organization mcgill research centre intelligent machines lines 17 distribution comp please n't misuse newsgroup hierarchy names distributions article hess swt1 , hess swt1 informatik uni hamburg de \( hauke hess \) writes wonder possible parent window paint area childs yes , 's attribute window 's attribute gc used drawing set mode rather default der mouse mouse mcrcim mcgill edu
maf dtek chalmers se \( martin \) subject german keyboard , x11r5 sparc nntp posting host dtek chalmers se organization chalmers university technology , gothenburg sweden lines 11 claes polaris \( heinz josef claes \) writes sparc 12 german type 4 keyboard anybody patch x11r5 \? export lcs mit edu pub sunkbd tar z maf martin maf dtek chalmers se maf math chalmers se system administrator math dtek chalmers univ technology
f savage bradford ac uk \( adrian savage \) subject searching organization university bradford , uk lines 14 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 recently found file german ftp site \( regent e technik tu muenchen de \) unfortunately shar file incomplete author 's email address given readme file \( saturn ee du edu \) work anyone assist giving location full version \( golf game x \) game , way contacting author \? please reply email help ade adrian savage , university bradford , uk email f savage bradford ac uk
unf edu \( stephen hite \) subject searching organization university north florida , lines 4 program april fool 's joke sigh steve hite unf edu
wolfson mit edu \( harry wolfson \) subject macx 1 2 color problem keywords mac x color window macx organization mit lincoln laboratory lines 16 stan kerr writes types client windows displayed , parts windows wrong color window moved slightly , forcing server repaint , repainted correct colors n't happen exact problem running hewlett packard 's microwave design system \( mds \) hp 380 unix box running macx 1 2 , sys 7 0 1 normally , mds draws window deep blue , occasionally becomes light blue text , etc , inside window become washed \( nearly invisible \) thought something brain dead subtle conflict another app init slightly moving window , forcing draw , colors get corrected harry wolfson wolfson mit edu
bash com \( paul bash \) subject x11r5 open look organization design , boulder , co usa lines 34 article 1993apr12 nrao edu rgooch rp csiro au \( richard gooch \) writes article 1993apr12 82 vax af mil , bonds vax af mil writes reposting sure first post ever made built installed x11r5 sparcstation 2 aim run mit x server retain openlook window manager sure uncommon , want make sure change delete everything need instance , start xdm rc local , get rid xnews \? openlook window manager source available mit contrib tapes export lcs mit edu would suggest building , rather using version openwindows olwm v3 would suggest skipping olwm getting olvwm instead version olwm window manager implements virtual desktop find really handy even large monitors version also available export lcs mit edu contrib tar z readme file also suggest getting files contrib xview3 case , built x server first , xview second , olvwm installed usr x5 verified server worked correctly , happily issued rm rf usr openwin using gcc 2 3 3 build resulted windowing system , intents purposes , identical openwindows 3 0 incredibly faster bit tweaking want things work exactly like openwindows , much paul bash design bash com boulder , co u
pilgrim umass edu \( \) subject request need tvtwm sources mods r j organization project pilgrim , university massachusetts amherst lines 17 distribution world reply pilgrim umass edu nntp posting host mecca pilgrim umass edu hello , way back time , set patches written richard \( believe distribution , patch level 6 \) added regular expressions file , multiple icon regions , icons , f function still patches , however , longer find sources applied \) 'd appreciate kind soul could send pointer could find sources anyone updated patches r5 \? \( richard \? \? pretty please \? \) thanks advance
dick ahold nl \( dick heijne \) subject tek quitting xterm activities \? \? \? organization ahold nv , zaandam , netherlands , eec lines 13 caught ncd guy , stated tek might quitting 's x terminal activities would looking interested buyer since source message ncd , might nasty ! ! ! anyone say \? \? dick ahold nv room 146 , 2 , ck zaandam , netherlands , eec dick heijne ahold nl tel 31 75 , fax 31 75
dick ahold nl \( dick heijne \) subject xdm solaris2 1 organization ahold nv , zaandam , netherlands , eec lines 11 xdm solaris 2 1 broke since two weeks , sun distributes patched release , works fine \( supports etc shadow \) running ever since experienced problems call local sun rep dick ahold nv room 146 , 2 , ck zaandam , netherlands , eec dick heijne ahold nl tel 31 75 , fax 31 75
dick ahold nl \( dick heijne \) subject xterm build problem solaris2 1 organization ahold nv , zaandam , netherlands , eec lines 24 dla se05 wg2 waii com \( doug acker \) writes continuing build problems , got stuck build xterm gcc fpcc struct return xterm main input cursor util tabs screen scrollbar button misc data menu o2 r usr wgep x11r5 sos5 lib ld run path ld run path l lib xaw lxaw l lib xmu lxmu l lib xt lxt l extensions lib lxext l lib x lx11 l usr wgep x11r5 sos5 lib lsocket lnsl undefined first referenced symbol file index usr ucblib libtermcap \( termcap \) rindex usr ucblib libtermcap \( termcap \) ld fatal symbol referencing errors output written xterm error code 1 make fatal error command failed target clues help \? either add list define index \( \) rindex \( \) strchr \( \) \( \) respectively use args former bsd , latter sysv ahold nv room 146 , 2 , ck zaandam , netherlands , eec dick heijne ahold nl tel 31 75 , fax 31 75
wilson andrew cmu edu subject compiling sun4 411 organization junior , math computer science , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 22 nntp posting host po5 andrew cmu edu hi , piece x code compiles fine pmax , pmax mach , well sun4 mach , whenever compiles sun4 411 , gives undefined ld errors sin cos pow floor get wmshellwidgetclass get applicationshellwidgetclass following libraries linked lxaw lxmu lxt lxext lx11 makefile generated imake template anyone give pointers i'm missing compile sun4 411 \? thanx wilson
cc usu edu subject x color bitmap editor needed organization utah state university lines 7 hi folks , anybody know find color bitmap editor around public sites \? information appreciate c chang
grp unify com \( greg \) subject anyone experience galaxy \? organization unify corporation \( sacramento \) lines 24 article 17r world std com , grier world std com \( political crony \) writes title line says galaxy package recently announced , includes gui builder portable toolkit i'm interested feedback may used thus far 've using year unix \( sun hp \) windows platforms opinion , best toolkit market supports rich api high level ipc mechanism , file system abstraction , memory management , command driven application development , drawing , geometry management , , oh yeah , open look , motif , ms windows mac \( flip switch \) thanks jim grier grier world std com greg grp unify com ancients unify corporation \( 916 \) 928 ! uunet ! unify ! grp
rlm helen surfcty com \( robert l mcmillin \) subject , newsgroup dead \? organization surf city software project lines 8 've gotten posts group last couple days \( recently added feed list \) , group near death \? robert l mcmillin surf city software rlm helen surfcty com dude ! include std disclaimer h
schneck physik tu muenchen de \( bernhard schneck \) subject trouble compiling x11r5 sunos 4 1 3 organization leibniz rechenzentrum , muenchen \( germany \) lines 14 nemo dia fi upm es \( francisco j \) writes problem occurs initial make world gets compiling standard x clients , ca n't seem find libraries right highly suspect program ld updated 4 1 3 yip , problem fix found link static clients , \( btw , used cc \) \( use sunos 4 1 1 ld bernhard
dla se05 wg2 waii com \( doug acker \) subject xterm build problem solaris2 1 organization western geophysical exploration products lines 22 nntp posting host se05 wg2 waii com reply dla se05 wg2 waii com 's message 16 apr 1993 23 58 27 gmt 16 apr 1993 23 58 27 gmt , dla se05 wg2 waii com \( doug acker \) said doug nntp posting host se05 wg2 waii com doug continuing build problems , got stuck build xterm doug undefined first referenced doug symbol file doug index usr ucblib libtermcap \( termcap \) doug rindex usr ucblib libtermcap \( termcap \) doug ld fatal symbol referencing errors output written xterm actually problem build ld library path well ld run path douglas l acker western geophysical exploration products division western atlas international inc litton dresser company internet acker wg2 waii com voice \( 713 \) 964 6128
welch berkeley edu \( sean n welch \) subject trouble compiling x11r5 sunos 4 1 3 organization experimental computing facility , u c berkeley lines 35 nntp posting host berkeley edu article schneck physik tu muenchen de schneck physik tu muenchen de \( bernhard schneck \) writes nemo dia fi upm es \( francisco j \) writes problem occurs initial make world gets compiling standard x clients , ca n't seem find libraries right highly suspect program ld updated 4 1 3 yip , problem fix found link static clients , \( btw , used cc \) \( use sunos 4 1 1 ld read fixes 9 , 10 , 11 mit distribution known problem apply fixes set yes mit config sun cf 3 fix 09 running sunos 4 1 1 apply sun 's ld patch 6 , need edit site def add line section define yes fix 10 running sunos 4 1 2 , change mit config sun cf value 2 fix 11 brief notes patch fixes config make sunos 4 1 2 fails unless tree previously built sean welch
thomas aeon berlin de \( thomas wolfram \) subject title xterm keywords xterm organization cities dust lines 37 1993apr17 samba oit unc edu naoumov physics unc edu \( sergei naoumov \) writes hey guys ! work many stations would like name current logname title xterm 's open machine name 's closed words , want host logname appear title opened xterm host xterm closed \? advance , serge serge astro unc edu almost window managers \( twm , mwm , olwm \) support escape sequences purpose put following login \( 're using csh tcsh \) , sh modify \( term xterm \) echo 2 logname host g 1 host g endif note , stands esc , vi enter pressing ctrl v esc g , means ctrl g vi press ctrl v ctrl g first sequence puts string title bar second icon btw , also put current working directory title bar make alias cd alias cd ! echo 2 logname host cwd g ' greetings , thomas thomas wolfram , thomas aeon berlin de , tu berlin , wolf prz tu berlin de , 49 030
duvvuri cs odu edu \( v prakash \) subject pointer feature summary multiple flushing pointers keywords pointers , arrows , cursors nntp posting host cs odu edu organization old dominion university , norfolk , va lines 23 hi trying implement pointer feature xlib multiple windows take input show output simultaneously displays want implement pointer feature would like get pointer come windows choose pointer menu every one able see give hints proceed replies greatly appreciated thank prakash duvvuri cs odu edu
megatek com \( rusty sanders \) subject x server multi screen organization megatek corporation , san diego , california lines 61 article 1993apr17 ca boeing com , ca boeing com \( timothy e neto \) rainer sun3 eeam elin co \( rainer hochreiter \) writes 've seen lot different terms , seem mean thing give exact definition terms mean \) multi screen \) multi headed \) multi display \) x server zaphod mode limit many screens displays single server handle \( articel read something upper limit 12 \) \? capability called , want move cursor one screen display another many clients may display server , believe limit would much memory available server allocated server sounds suspiciously like company might something background first megatek series designed x accelerators part designed sun sun \( vendor 's \) vme systems said , megatek products support multi screen multi display workstation cards keyboard mouse port used provide additional displays example , say hade sparcstation expansion chassis could put six , allowing total six screens system could attach 1 6 keyboard mice , allowing mix match combination screens displays could 1 6 screen display , 3 2 screen displays , 6 1 screen displays , 1 2 screen display 1 4 screen display basically combination , megatek try careful use words multi screen multi display quite different meaning , \( least x \) exact definitions reason ramble like mention upper limit 12 screens display happens , 's define server determines screens supported \( server include misc h , \) released mit , 3 released megatek , 12 , screens supported single megatek display \( e x server \) 12 someone construed limitation x i'm sorry , clearly \( pointed well mr neto \) case nobody ever asked us course , could say buy want , 'll support rusty sanders , megatek corp megatek com ucsd ! hplabs ! hp sdd ! ames ! scubed ! uunet !
davewood bruno cs colorado edu \( david rex wood \) subject creating application contexts multiple times \? \? \? nntp posting host bruno cs colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 94 subject describe problem well please read trying write function creates xtappcontext widget , displays widget , destroys everything returns problem multiple calls function cause variety problems including \( depending calls make get rid things \) core dump badpixmap x error widget simple \( c \) program wrote show problem include x11 xlib h include xm xm h include xm h void bla \( \) xtappcontext app display dis xopendisplay \( \) int junk 0 widget top xtappinitialize \( app , test , null , 0 , junk , null , null , null , 0 \) widget box xtvacreatemanagedwidget \( , , top , , 50 , , 50 , null \) xtrealizewidget \( top \) xtappmainloop 10 \( int 0 10 \) xevent event \( app , event \) \( event \) put \? \? \? \( top \) xtdestroywidget \( top \) \( app \) \( dis \) \? \? \? main \( \) \( int 0 20 \) bla \( \) note xtappmainloop given time \( example , 10 \) function exit return main program example , get following error \( consistent \) 5th call bla \( \) x error failed request badpixmap \( invalid pixmap parameter \) major opcode failed request 55 \( x \) resource id failed request serial number failed request 71 current serial number output stream 86 take \( top \) line , dumps core seconds call furthermore , every time call xtappinitialize \( \) \( 1st time \) , get warning initializing resource lists twice warning initializing translation manager twice finally , question needs done order able call function creates xtappcontext widgets multiple times \? help would greatly appreciated please respond via email dont usually time read group thanks much davewood david rex wood davewood cs colorado edu university colorado boulder
mike hopper virginia edu \( michael chapman \) subject compiling help organization itc uva community access unix internet project lines 12 'd like compile x11r5 sony 1750 running news 4 1c x distribution support config , release notes say tested machine , also release notes , nothing sony listed supported servers supposed use r5 x server \? os supported , hardware \? something r4 binaries used r5 server \? may seem like silly questions , i'm really confused mike hopper acs virginia edu raise taxes middle class unknown
mike hopper virginia edu \( michael chapman \) subject compiling help organization itc uva community access unix internet project lines 15 's \( think \) figured need install r5 without xserver like sony cf file defines , new libraries , utils , etc , installed old server r4 still work allow run xview 3 0 , x11r5 running server interface remain changes made libs \? another question likely since sun dropping ow support desktop utils \( like file manager \) made public \? would nice companies would make old code public benefit us smaller budgets \) mike hopper acs virginia edu raise taxes middle class unknown
stevew chineham euro csg mot com \( steve \) subject xterm cursor x received usenet pa dec com id sun , 18 apr 93 23 09 02 0700 x received inet gw 2 pa dec com id sun , 18 apr 93 23 08 16 0700 x received pobox mot com \( 129 188 137 100 \) mot com smtp \( 5 65c ida 1 4 4 mot 2 13 comp windows x usenet decwrl dec com \) id mon , 19 apr 1993 01 08 08 0500 x received euro csg mot com \( 140 101 110 3 \) pobox mot com smtp \( 5 65c ida 1 4 4 mot 2 12 comp windows x usenet decwrl dec com \) id mon , 19 apr 1993 01 06 06 0500 x received euro csg mot com \( 5 61 03 06 92 15 24 1 36 \) id mon , 19 apr 93 07 04 08 gmt x mailer z mail \( 2 1 3 \) x comp windows x usenet lines 42 forgive faq \( checked list cant find \) problem cursor within xterm mono \( grayscale monitors \) problem character application displays input fields reverse video xterm text cursor gets lost edge input field solution would appear set xterm cursor line rather block , ca n't find means although various sources seem indicate done xterm loses input focus cursor becomes outlined block would also preferable ca n't seem force default either configuration motorola x11r4 please reply email thank steve european mis motorola cellular subscriber group court , chineham , basingstoke , england phone 44 \( 0 \) 256 e mail stevew chineham euro csg mot com fax 44 \( 0 \) 256 mobile 44 \( 0 \) 850 post steve european mis motorola cellular subscriber group court , chineham , basingstoke , england phone 44 \( 0 \) 256 e mail stevew chineham euro csg mot com fax 44 \( 0 \) 256 mobile 44 \( 0 \) 850 post
mppa3 syma sussex ac uk \( alan richardson \) subject available xvertext 4 0 organization university sussex lines 25 available xvertext 4 0 summary xvertext provides four functions draw strings angle x window \( previous versions limited vertical text \) rotation still achieved using ximages , notion rotating whole font first dropped 's new \? 've added cache keeps copy previously rotated strings thus speeding redraws get \? comp sources x \( soon \) export lcs mit edu contrib xvertext 4 0 shar z \( \) alan richardson , n't school maths physical sciences , old wise univ sussex , brighton bn1 9qh , england judas priest uk mppa3 uk ac sussex syma elsewhere mppa3 syma sussex ac uk
huub cwi nl \( huub bakker \) subject waiting specific event callback keywords event handling reply huub bakker cwi nl organization cwi , centre mathematics computer science lines 30 hello world , want write xt application code like work \( \) need user input \( \) wait user input \( input \) \( input ok \) work \( \) else work \( \) work \( \) work \( \) callback functions application simply waits user answer question code xt motif application \? thanks much advance greetings , huub cwi , p box huub bakker \( huub cwi nl \) 1009 ab amsterdam netherlands tel 31 20
gpatapis boyd tansu com au \( george \) subject desqview x pc \? organization cssc lines 42 distribution world reply gpatapis boyd tansu com au nntp posting host boyd cssc syd tansu com au article wl aecl ca , wl aecl ca \( \) writes use desqview x think great really shines \( imho \) let unix users log pc run dos windows applications display going screens 'll need get desqview x v 1 1 desqview x v 1 1 275 suggested retail desqview x x systems v 1 1 200 suggested retail also must running supported network \( ftp softwares , novell lan workplace dos , sun microsystems pc nfs , beame whiteside , wollongong pathway tcpip hp microsoft lan manager \) n't network stuff , quarterdeck give copy novell tcpip dos network manager get info sending email \( appropriately \) info qdeck com opinion , want people logging running applications pc , 'll want 486 33 16 megs ram also , xwindows software really seems like et 4000 \( tseng labs chipset \) based graphics card personally , found things ran better scsi drive pc esdi drives , experience good luck best wishes phil sort traffic generated x calls \? curious find required bandwidth link must one machine running dv x supporting multiple users \( clients \) require adequate response time anyone ideas \? \? george pan c c lane email gpatapis cssc syd tansu com au p box sydney south fax \( 02 \) 911 3 199 nsw , 2000 , australia voice \( 02 \) 911 3 121
win sto mchp sni de \( andrea winkler \) subject x security x technical conference organization sni ag muenchen , sto xs lines 31 possibility join 7th annual x technical conference january 18 20 1993 boston , nevertheless , i'm interested information tutorials , tutorial id security title survey x security tutorial id f admin title x administrator anybody know , get information \( paper mail \) \? anybody information kerberos \( connection x display manager xdm \) \? thanks , andrea winkler \( siemens nixdorf muenchen , germany \) e e n andrea winkler internet andrea winkler sto mchp sni de sni sto xs 322 otto hahn ring 6 8000 munich 83 n x r f phone \( 089 \) 636 fax \( 089 \) 636
mahan tgv com \( patrick l mahan \) subject , newsgroup dead \? organization internet lines 24 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu , rlm helen surfcty com 've gotten posts group last couple days \( recently added feed list \) , group near death \? seen mailing list side , i'm getting right amount traffic patrick l mahan tgv window washer mahan tgv com waking person unnecessarily considered lazarus long capital crime first offense , notebooks lazarus long patrick l mahan tgv window washer mahan tgv com waking person unnecessarily considered lazarus long capital crime first offense , notebooks lazarus long
csv warwick ac uk \( ian dickinson \) subject svr4 x binary \( rfd create comp unix sys5 \) organization team 's aptitude und lines 21 nntp posting host csv warwick ac uk article rick digibd rick digibd digibd com \( rick richardson \) writes scary thing ship 6 functions many type libraries shipped vendors \? trademark name \? clown uses name puts 4 troublesome functions \? usl svr4 support ld run path la solaris 2 \? equivalent \? , put library package specific lib directory , compile app ld run path defined , work besides , 'd say name possible cheers , ian dickinson nic handle article dedicated csv warwick ac uk ! uknet ! warwick ! disapprove dickinson ou csv warwick prmd uk ac admd c gb continue c gb university warwick ou computing services cn ian dickinson read
csc32 enet dec com \( scott \) subject icon animation lines 17 reply csc32 enet dec com \( scott \) organization digital equipment corporation csc colorado hi folks part self introduction x 've trying simple icon animation \( sort like \) changing applications icon fairly simple widget id xtsetvalues \( whatever \) 're done alternately set window manager hints methods n't seem work icons application n't specifically situation change icon random windows sitting icon box question given window id , change icon \? working example would much appreciated makes difference , i'm using motif 1 1 vms t6 0 thanks scott \)
kaiser informatik uni koblenz de \( siegfried kaiser \) subject r5 table widget causing trouble xtquerygeometry organization universitaet koblenz lines 227 distribution world nntp posting host glass uni koblenz de contents problems table widgets r5 following part program \( user interface simulation system \) work r4 , refused r5 cause , r4 version know \( used instead caught net times r3 \) \( formerly \) since compiling r5 , program causes zero width height error \( sparc stations \) trouble shooter \( \) computation model init table table widget though childs \( label widgets \) exist , xtquerygeometry returns prefered width height zero thus following cannot perform anything else set width height newly created widget zero wonder child create zero width height errors \( dependent whether width height shell widget set resource file \) question anyone know , xtquerygeometry returns low prefered values working table widgets perhaps \? 'll happy , someone able help germans requested answer german siegfried kaiser email kaiser uni koblenz de part interest des model init storing old width height viewport widget , parent troubling table widget , viewport widget destroyed destroying widgets resizing r3 age \( model init popped \) \( model init form view \) xtdestroywidget \( model init form view \) creating within shell , root viewport widget n 0 xtsetarg \( args n , , model init title \) n xtsetarg \( args n , , model init button view \) n xtsetarg \( args n , , true \) n xtsetarg \( args n , , true \) n model init form view \( form view , , model init form , args , n \) n 0 model init table \( table , , model init form view , args , n \) create form widget create position table widget 's childs position uses r5 r4 create form widget \( ptr model init obj , model init table \) crucial function call intended return maximum height possible n't sufficient space show whole table widget , viewport shall grow large possible , beyond border screen enough space , window intended smallest possible height xtquerygeometry \( model init table , null , pref \) according algorithms idea , new value viewport widget 's height selected unfortunately pref height 0 leads new height 0 \( form view height pref height \) new height pref height else new height form view height setting new values viewport widgets ancestors w \( model init form , form view \) xtresizewidget \( w , width , new height , pref border width \) xtresizewidget \( model init form view , width , new height , pref border width \) \( model init popped \) case shell , contains model init form view model init table , allready exists , resized , n 0 xtsetarg \( args n , , shell width \) n xtsetarg \( args n , , shell height \) n xtsetarg \( args n , , shell bw \) n xtgetvalues \( model init shell , args , n \) xtresizewidget \( model init shell , shell width , shell height height new height , shell bw \) end n 0 xtsetarg \( args n , , width \) n xtsetarg \( args n , , bw \) n xtgetvalues \( model init button view , args , n \) xtresizewidget \( model init button view , width , new height , bw \) xtresizewidget \( vert bar , width , 1 , bw \) resize inits \( \) shell 's height set within resource file , program terminates within first second pass observed function first pass succeeds \( model init form view \) \( model init table \) \( ! model init popped \) case shell n't popped done value set shell 's height within resource file , program terminates \( model init shell , \) model init pop flag true set model init attributes \( \) end get actual init \( ptr actual \) load form \( ptr actual \) someone suspects creation table widget 's contents causes trouble , sources create form create form widget \( ptr , table \) obj ptr widget table ptr linear list containing attributes para meters model additionally ding widgets arg args 10 int n , row , col obj ptr obj ident ptr ident initialization local variables ptr obj ptr col 0 row 0 die das pseudo \( fuer die parameter \) loop list objects pseudo objects every object occuring model zero attributes parameters , shared several objects locality attributes one object listed second linear list \( type ident \) , whereas parameters , belong ob put together pseudo object thus program loops list objects pseudo objects object list attributes resp parameters \( ptr obj ! \( obj \) null \) object pseudo object represented label widget n 0 xtsetarg \( args n , xtnlabel , ptr obj name \) n ptr obj label w xtcreatemanagedwidget \( object , , table , args , n \) \( ptr obj label w , col , row \) col row ptr ident ptr obj ident die attribute parameter \( ptr ident ! \( ident \) null \) attribute parameter represented label corresponding widget , initialized n 0 xtsetarg \( args n , xtnlabel , ptr ident name \) n ptr ident label w xtcreatemanagedwidget \( ident , , table , args , n \) \( ptr ident label w , col , row \) col n 0 xtsetarg \( args n , , row length \) n xtsetarg \( args n , , ptr ident text \) n xtsetarg \( args n , , \) n xtsetarg \( args n , , \) n xtsetarg \( args n , , \) n xtsetarg \( args n , , true \) n ptr ident text w xtcreatemanagedwidget \( text , , table , args , n \) \( ptr ident text w , col , row \) col row get next ident \( ptr ident \) end col get next obj \( ptr obj \) end end create form widget far problem detail
dealy narya gsfc nasa gov \( brian dealy csc \) subject motif list organization nasa goddard space flight center lines 14 distribution world nntp posting host narya gsfc nasa gov originator dealy narya gsfc nasa gov motif mailing list located lobo gsfc nasa gov would like added \( deleted \) list , please send mail motif request lobo gsfc nasa gov mail list , send mail motif lobo gsfc nasa gov brian brian dealy 301 572 8267 knowing 's dealy kong gsfc nasa gov 's important , 's knowing ! uunet ! dftsrv ! kong ! dealy 's b dylan
buzz bear com \( buzz moschetti \) subject xcopyplane question reply buzz bear com \( buzz moschetti \) organization bear , stearns co fast lines 16 reply whaley sigma kpc com 's message 15 apr 93 18 39 31 gmt article whaley sigma kpc com whaley sigma kpc com \( ken whaley \) writes actually , must also ask faq 's 1 popular reason graphics n't show wait expose event drawing rectangle \? suppose idle app realized mapped window contains xlib graphics button widget , pressed , cause new item drawn window action clearly call xcopyarea \( \) \( equiv \) directly instead , register existence new item memory structure let expose event handler take care rendering image time guaranteed window mapped problem , course , expose event generated window visible mapped know best way tickle window expose event handler invoked draw new item \?
gerard dps co uk \( gerard o'driscoll \) subject xwindows always opaque organization internet lines 16 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu hess swt1 informatik uni hamburg de writes wonder possible parent window paint area childs , could possible implement across multiple xwindows select objects displayed one window \? use gc mode attribute set default however , beware children different depth parent semantics undefined protocol gerard o'driscoll \( gerard odriscoll dps co uk \) du pont pixel systems ltd
marc fr \( marc \) subject jb sierra com xlib ms windows xserver ! ! ! organization internet lines 16 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu jb sierra com cc tech staff fr , xpert expo lcs mit edu think may find either quarterdeck \( x \) hummingbird \( exceed \) provide xlib dos perhaps also xlib ms windows \? 's possibility yes , exceed windows version ported games like tetris , works fine si c'est , ce de se le car ce moment la , le xt suis je en train de mon la toolkit c \? marc \( marc fr , marc fr \) computers , communications visions \( \) 82 bd , paris france phone 40 08 07 07 , fax 43 87 35 99
uucp \( guy \) subject find window id given name keywords xlib xwininfo reply virginia edu ! uucp ! organization marine , inc lines 15 want equivalent xwininfo name via call set calls xlib need map windows name id 's probably easy , 've programming x little 've looked books n't find also checked faq could n't find email one following addresses 'll post response seems reasonable guy guy l virginia edu ! uucp ! marine inc compuserve com
billh greed co uk \( bill \) subject waiting specific event callback reply billh greed co uk organization salomon brothers , ltd lines 20 nntp posting host greed article charon cwi nl , huub cwi nl \( huub bakker \) writes deleted plain using dialog 'in like simply n't done need set callbacks buttons widgets dialog let callback routines work callbacks carry flow logic xview sun actually supports neatly box , return status line , ease coding goes event driven style application summary redesign required delta long option position also generates short gamma exposure return generated delta options thought compensation assuming gamma risk radioactive investment management whew !
spyder crd ge com \( skip montanaro \) subject circular motif widgets reply dev hollywood acsc com 's message 16 apr 1993 17 16 02 gmt nntp posting host spyder crd ge com reply montanaro crd ge com \( skip montanaro \) organization ge corporate research development , schenectady , ny lines 17 're willing little work , make want , less one colleagues ge crd done internal system matrix transform class makes easy compute series dial positions single set vectors set vectors drawn pixmap clicking button advances knob 's state changes next pixmap sequence using obviously still taking rectangular portion parent widget , 's normally big make things look circular enough skip \( montanaro crd ge com \) ca n't x easy \? , learning \( \)
gerard dps co uk \( gerard o'driscoll \) subject creating 8 bit windows 24 bit display \? organization internet lines 58 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu stolk fwi uva nl writes problem occurs try create window visual different visual parent \( uses default visual \) 've got set border pixel window attributes default copyfromparent gives badmatch unsigned long valuemask border width non zero 'd better colour cmap rather use old pixel value also , use valuemask , makes code obvious attr colormap cmap attr border pixel 0 valuemask cwcolormap win xcreatewindow \( dpy , defaultrootwindow \( dpy \) , 10 , 10 , width , height , 0 , border width see comment 8 , depth inputoutput , class vinfo visual , visual valuemask , attr \) note border width code looked like win xcreatewindow \( dpy , defaultrootwindow \( dpy \) , 10 , 10 , width , height , copyfromparent , border width 8 , depth inputoutput , class vinfo visual , visual cwcolormap , attr \) border width set copyfromparent works n't make sense border width unsigned int get away copyfromparent zero x h happened defined 1 'd get interesting looking window ! gerard o'driscoll \( gerard odriscoll dps co uk \) du pont pixel systems ltd
topgun \( steven mikes \) subject information organization un x technologies lines 13 product mention parallax graphics santa clara , california , us read product review jan feb '93 issue x journal issues focuses multimedia x , also number useful items , including article video x window fax new york office 212 274 information obtaining back issues steve steven mikes editor x journal 1097 rd , martinsville , nj office 908 563 fax 908 560 serving x window system community
topgun \( steven mikes \) subject xlib ms windows xserver ! ! ! organization un x technologies lines 15 another company , congruent corporation new york city , also ported xlib xt motif 1 1 ms windows nt , provides full client development x applications nt environment porting interviews ms windows , thought interviews c toolkit c classes , built xlib , unless classes calling xlib functions \? steve steven mikes editor x journal 1097 rd , martinsville , nj office 908 563 fax 908 560 serving x window system community
freud nia nih gov \( howard wai chun \) subject need shading program example x organization \( institutes health , bethesda , md \) lines 7 anyone know shading program based xlib public domain \? need example allocate correct colormaps program appreciate help howard
beck irzr17 inf tu dresden de \( andre beck \) subject system file tmp organization dept computer science , tu dresden , germany lines 17 distribution world reply andre beck irs inf tu dresden de nntp posting host irzr17 inf tu dresden de article acsu buffalo edu , lusardi cs buffalo edu \( christopher lusardi \) writes directory x11 unix tmp \? start x , created system directory n't created root , contains empty file \( x0 \) owned 's unix domain socket \( local connection \) xserver try rm \) brain inside andre' beck \( abpsoft \) mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de
beck irzr17 inf tu dresden de \( andre beck \) subject title xterm organization dept computer science , tu dresden , germany lines 32 distribution world reply andre beck irs inf tu dresden de nntp posting host irzr17 inf tu dresden de keywords xterm article 3b1 aeon berlin de , thomas aeon berlin de \( thomas wolfram \) writes hey guys ! work many stations would like name current logname title xterm 's open machine name 's closed words , want host logname appear title opened xterm host xterm closed \? almost window managers \( twm , mwm , olwm \) support escape sequences purpose put following login \( 're using csh tcsh \) , sh modify \( term xterm \) echo 2 logname host g 1 host g endif 1 \) feature window manager xterm 2 \) sequences ansi compatible , \? anyone know compatible sequences \? would think dcs \( device control sequence \) introduced , may csi sequence exists , \? must work dxterm \( vt ansi compatible \) , may work xterms brain inside andre' beck \( abpsoft \) mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de
christy cs concordia ca \( christy \) subject x386 server problems organization computer science , concordia university , montreal , quebec lines 32 hello , i'm trying get x11r5 running pc ran following error message trying start xserver setting tcp option supported protocol x386 version 1 2 x windows system \( protocol version 11 , revision 0 , vendor release 5000 \) fatal server error screens found giving xinit software connection abort \( errno 130 \) unable connect x xserver anyone know error means \? anyone experienced problem \? help much appreciated thanks advance please send replies christy alex qc ca christy
kbw helios ath epa gov \( kevin b weinrich \) subject solution need xrdb xdefaults unchanged \? organization computer sciences corp lines 9 distribution world nntp posting host helios ath epa gov short answer seems n't particular package \( wscrawl \) seems reset defaults missing xdefaults file added missing ones xdefaults file , problem goes away kevin kevin weinrich computer sciences corp kbw helios ath epa gov
dbohdal jaguar ess harris com subject icon box organization internet lines 9 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu cc dbohdal expo lcs mit edu dear xperts want place specific group icons icon box icons appear outside box anyone know 's way \? \? i'm using x11r5 motif 1 2 1 thanks ! dbohdal jaguar ess harris com
gregg netcom com \( gregg weber \) subject inexpensive monochrome x station recommend \? organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 10 someone recommend inexpensive 19 monochrome x station , pc software emulation based \? please tell manufacturer , model , price significant specs thanks gregg weber let , open bright like sky , gregg netcom com without taking sides , clouds concepts \( 510 \) 283 kun chen pa
hsteve carina unm edu \( \) subject problem organization university new mexico , albuquerque lines 13 nntp posting host carina unm edu seems like n't work way expecting right performs xmovewindow , want know absolute window position respect root window get info abs x , abs n't right \? anybody know way find information \? thanks , please e mail hsteve carina unm edu 's possible steve hsteve hydra unm edu , hsteve carina unm edu say vms ! !
klee synoptics com \( ken lee \) subject dec pixmap size reply klee synoptics com organization synoptics communications , santa clara ca lines 12 nntp posting host bugsbunny synoptics com article 1964 igd fhg de , haase igd fhg de \( helmut haase \( \) \) writes try create pixmap larger size screen program terminate displaying message x error insufficient resources many x servers supporting graphics accelerators allow creation pixmaps size screen one workaround create several smaller pixmaps add results ken lee , klee synoptics com
klee synoptics com \( ken lee \) subject circular motif widgets reply klee synoptics com organization synoptics communications , santa clara ca lines 13 nntp posting host bugsbunny synoptics com article acsc com , dev hollywood acsc com \( \) writes support round circular widgets motif 's next release \? 'd love circular knob widget could used instead slider much support need \? n't think 's anything prohibits implementing widget , though write versions functions draw 3d shadow traversal highlighting ken lee , klee synoptics com
support qdeck com \( technical support \) subject desqview x pc \? organization quarterdeck office systems , santa monica ca lines 61 article picasso cssc syd tansu com au gpatapis boyd tansu com au writes article wl aecl ca , wl aecl ca \( \) writes use desqview x think great really shines \( imho \) let unix users log pc run dos windows applications display going screens 'll need get desqview x v 1 1 desqview x v 1 1 275 suggested retail desqview x x systems v 1 1 200 suggested retail also must running supported network \( ftp softwares , novell lan workplace dos , sun microsystems pc nfs , beame whiteside , wollongong pathway tcpip hp microsoft lan manager \) n't network stuff , quarterdeck give copy novell tcpip dos network manager get info sending email \( appropriately \) info qdeck com actually , info qdeck com customer service department technical questions , write support qdeck com opinion , want people logging running applications pc , 'll want 486 33 16 megs ram also , xwindows software really seems like et 4000 \( tseng labs chipset \) based graphics card personally , found things ran better scsi drive pc esdi drives , experience sort traffic generated x calls \? curious find required bandwidth link must one machine running dv x supporting multiple users \( clients \) require adequate response time anyone ideas \? \? expect limiting factor server machine , network give real world example , quarterdeck roughly 100 people using dvx talk bunch unix boxes , novell file servers , 's much load ethernet \( maybe 4 , 20 30 people segment \) badly loaded net , apps wanted run network intensive , could run slowdowns biggest problem would machine say 486 33 plenty ram fast hard disk network card 10 people running programs , 're going see slowdowns 're \( effectively \) 3 3 mhz 486 course , dvx attempt see tasks idle make sure give time slice , 10 working programs running , 'll know said , tweak programs run \( adding calls give time slices idle sort thing \) , could probably run 15 20 people given machine started seeing slowdowns \( time network bandwidth \) really depends programs \( ie 're going see slowdown x bandwidth lot sooner apps network things also \) quarterdeck office systems internet support tom pricing ordering info qdeck com tech questions support qdeck com bbs \( 310 \) 314 3227 fax \( 310 \) 314 3217 compuserve go quarterdeck q fax \( 310 \) 314 3214 touch tone phone demand !
yuri physics watt ac uk \( yuri \) subject xview slider organization internet lines 31 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert xpert expo lcs mit edu hi netters , i'm using sliders xview apps , usually numeric field seem control length field apps appears long enough keep several characters , cannot keep even maximum value set panel max value ! understand , panel value display length , controls number characters displayed text items , n't work case slider , despite fact panel h contains following bit panel text item , panel numeric text item , panel slider item panel text item attributes panel notify level panel attr \( attr , 152 \) , panel value display length panel attr \( attr int , 182 \) , gives hint attribute used sliders 1 \) setting attribute gives nothing , 2 \) xv attribute gives warning bad attribute , return value 0 someone share experience managing sliders xview , clear problem \? help much appreciated yuri yuri uk ac hw phy
defaria cup hp com \( andy defaria \) subject mysterious beeping nntp posting host cup hp com organization hewlett packard x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 8 lines 121 article crossposted hp windows author andy defaria posted mon , 19 apr 1993 18 08 38 gmt reason following code causes x application beep whenever intercept keystroke change 's meaning intent code allow date fields following special keys tt insert today 's date bump day one bump day one hardcoded dates example perhaps n't using xmtext field reason following code beeps whenever special keys tt hit \? idea code interpret keys special meaning implied code would like get rid beeping , far tell , i'm beep lose understanding beeping occuring include x11 intrinsic h include xm xm h include xm h include xm h include xm text h widget toplevel widget mainwindow widget widget datefield xtappcontext application void \( widget date \) char 04 19 93 xtvasetvalues \( date , xmnvalue , , null \) void \( widget date \) char 04 20 93 xtvasetvalues \( date , xmnvalue , , null \) void \( widget date \) char 04 18 93 xtvasetvalues \( date , xmnvalue , , null \) void \( widget , widget date , callbackdata \) capture keys tt change behaviour found set doit false x wo n't interpret keystroke switch \( callbackdata text ptr 0 \) case 't' case 't' \( date \) callbackdata doit false return case ' ' case ' ' \( date \) callbackdata doit false return case ' ' case ' ' \( date \) callbackdata doit false return default return switch void main \( cardinal argc , char argv \) initialize xt toplevel \( application , application , null , 0 , argc , argv , null , null \) create mainwindow xtvacreatemanagedwidget \( mainwindow , , toplevel , null \) create mainwindow xtvacreatemanagedwidget \( , , mainwindow , null \) create small text area datefield xtvacreatemanagedwidget \( datefield , , , , form , , form , , 8 , null \) set callback xtaddcallback \( datefield , , \( \) , \( xtpointer \) datefield \) realize toplevel xtrealizewidget \( toplevel \) go xtmainloop xtappmainloop \( application \) main swear life love andrew defaria never live sake another man ask hewlett packard another man live mine california language labs john defaria cup hp com swear life love andrew defaria never live sake another man ask hewlett packard another man live mine california language labs john defaria cup hp com
david swat \( david e smyth \) subject ms windows vs motif \( gui design differences \) , future unix nntp posting host swat organization jet propulsion laboratory \( nasa \) distribution usa lines 17 ik su yoo ik bellcore com writes another important difference msw n't window handle sophisticated geometry management \( like \) advantage ms windows xt \? used think big advantage xt , sure anymore david smyth david jpl devvax jpl nasa gov senior software engineer , \( 818 \) 306 6463 \( temp ! use v mail \) x object guru office 525 b70 jet propulsion lab , 525 3660 4800 oak grove drive , pasadena , ca 91109 's earliest possible date ca n't prove wo n't done \? tom
david swat \( david e smyth \) subject looking david e smyth nntp posting host swat organization jet propulsion laboratory \( nasa \) lines 16 zvi nynexst com \( zvi \) writes author wcl \( current care taker \) name found dist tree tried mail david smyth ap mchp sni de , mail bounced back ! ! david smyth david jpl devvax jpl nasa gov senior software engineer , \( 818 \) 306 6463 \( temp ! use v mail \) x object guru office 525 b70 jet propulsion lab , 525 3660 4800 oak grove drive , pasadena , ca 91109 's earliest possible date ca n't prove wo n't done \? tom
dyoung media mit edu \( david young \) subject macro recorder player x \? organization mit media laboratory lines 18 available x similar macintosh something allow store playback sequences keystrokes , menu selections , mouse actions directing towards another application \? , could someone send information availability , hard think might send input x applications , hopefully , deal responses appropriately \? \( application going take seconds process probably wait complete sending another command \) thanks , david ,
buzz bear com \( buzz moschetti \) subject monthly question xcopyarea \( \) expose events reply buzz bear com \( buzz moschetti \) organization bear , stearns co fast lines 18 \( 2nd posting question n't seem get answered \) suppose idle app realized mapped window contains xlib graphics button widget , pressed , cause new item drawn window action clearly call xcopyarea \( \) \( equiv \) directly instead , register existence new item memory structure let expose event handler handles regular expose events \( e g window manager driven exposures \) take care rendering new image using expose event handler proper way time handler called , xlib window guaranteed mapped problem , course , expose event generated window already visible mapped need somehow tickle window expose handler hit arguments enable render part window contains new item best way tickle window produce behavior \?
tijc02 uucp \( ann freeman \) subject seeking user experience x based test tools organization siemens industrial automation , johnson city tn distribution net lines 10 anyone experience using , x , automated test tool x \? please email directly opinions \( positive negative \) ann freeman siemens industrial automation , inc johnson city , tn tijc02 uunet uu net
dyoung media mit edu \( david young \) subject drawing lines \( inverse xor \) organization mit media laboratory lines 40 i'm trying write code lets draw lines rubber band boxes motif x i'm running 8 bit display 've created colormap using almost colors want draw lines drawing area widget widget i'm displaying bitmap using xputimage \( \) n't matter lines draw interactively stay around window refreshed currently , draw interactively , begin drawindex index reserve foreground default bg color color index background image palette colors drawindex red palette colors default bg color red palette colors drawindex green palette colors default bg color green palette colors drawindex blue palette colors default bg color blue xstorecolors \( mydisplay , cmap , palette colors drawindex , 1 \) xflush \( mydisplay \) xsetfunction \( mydisplay , gc , gxxor \) xsetforeground \( mydisplay , gc , drawindex \) draw xdrawline \( mydisplay , xtwindow \( \) , gc , x1 , y1 , x2 , y2 \) xflush \( mydisplay \) i'm done , return things normal xsetfunction \( mydisplay , gc , gxcopy \) 'd like happen lines draw inverse whatever i'm drawing instead happens get white lines lines white background nothing shows lines black area nothing shows ! 's strange gxxor function seems right since rubber banding box , erases redraws correctly \( ie disturbing underlying image \) suggestions i'm wrong \? david
mikey eukanuba wpd sgi com \( mike yang \) subject monthly question xcopyarea \( \) expose events reply mikey sgi com organization silicon graphics , inc lines 27 nntp posting host eukanuba wpd sgi com article buzz lion bear com , buzz bear com \( buzz moschetti \) writes \( 2nd posting question n't seem get answered \) resist questions says something like \? problem , course , expose event generated window already visible mapped need somehow tickle window expose handler hit arguments enable render part window contains new item best way tickle window produce behavior \? expose event handler truly intelligent exposed rectangle information , use xcleararea generate expose event \( assuming background pixel none \) rectangle new item still great , since items contained within rectangle still unnecessarily redrawn expose event handler simply redraws everything , 'll much work drawing new item top existing scene mike yang silicon graphics , inc mikey sgi com 415 390 1786
nova ctr columbia edu \( nui chan \) subject put rpc hp x motif environment \? organization columbia university center telecommunications research x posted nova ctr columbia edu nntp posting host sol ctr columbia edu lines 12 hi , anybody implements rpc server hp xwindows \? sun xview , notify enable rpc svc \( \) call automatically executes rpc processes detects incoming request wonder similar function hp x motif perform function help appreciated nui chan ctr columbia edu
graham sparc1 ottawa jade com \( jay graham \) subject mix gl x \( xlib , xt , mwm \) organization internet lines 38 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu developing x \( xt , xm \) application include graphics window sort moving symbols among things pure x application could implemented motif widgets , one would xmdrawingarea drawing xlib would like take advantage graphics library \( gl \) available ibm rs 6000 \( sgi 's gl believe \) possible mix x gl one application program \? use gl subroutines xmdrawingarea x window opened \? never used gl , doc gl winopen \( \) says first time winopen \( \) called opens connection server also , gl calls require display gc , unlike x calls initial information appears x gl cannot mixed easily true \? pex \( graphigs \? \) functionality gl \? environment x11r4 motif 1 1 gl available aix sys v 3 2 ibm rs 6000 360 thanks advance jay graham jade simulations international corp 14 road , suite 150 nepean , ontario , canada 613 225 5900 graham ottawa jade com
dan tremor think com \( dan \) subject drawing abstract graph organization thinking machines corporation , cambridge , usa lines 9 distribution comp nntp posting host tremor quake think com looking software draw graph want give list nodes edges nodes program come reasonable positioning thanks advance dan dan think com thinking machines corporation
robert andrew ryan andrew cmu edu subject monthly question xcopyarea \( \) expose events organization school computer science , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 19 nntp posting host po5 andrew cmu edu reply buzz lion bear com excerpts netnews comp windows x 19 apr 93 monthly question buzz moschetti bear com \( 1055 \) button widget , pressed , cause new item drawn window action clearly call xcopyarea \( \) \( equiv \) directly instead , register existence new item memory structure let expose event handler handles regular expose events \( e g window manager driven exposures \) take care rendering new image hmmm clearly \? depends programming model forbidden draw outside context expose event certainly internal data structures maintained visual appearance would maintained properly whenever expose event happens generated n't preclude drawing immediately updating though rob
maher kong gsfc nasa gov \( 552 \) subject wanted critiques multi windowing system toolkits organization nasa goddard space flight center lines 15 nntp posting host kong gsfc nasa gov pointers articles , personal opinions , user interface toolkits operate across many windowing systems \( e g , x , ms windows , macintosh \) know , open interface , xvt , aspect reply opinion , please briefly state choice short discussion steve maher maher gsfc nasa gov steve maher \( 301 \) 286 \( voice \) flight dynamics division maher kong gsfc nasa gov nasa goddard space flight center
ianhogg milli cs umn edu \( ian j hogg \) subject put rpc hp x motif environment \? nntp posting host milli cs umn edu organization university minnesota , minneapolis , csci dept lines 15 article 1993apr19 sol ctr columbia edu nova ctr columbia edu \( nui chan \) writes anybody implements rpc server hp xwindows \? sun xview , notify enable rpc svc \( \) call automatically executes rpc processes detects incoming request wonder similar function hp x motif perform function 've using package year believe got export ian hogg ianhogg cs umn edu \( 612 \) 424
yang cs umass edu \( hong yang \) subject colormap question organization university massachusetts amherst lines 139 nntp posting host cs umass edu hi , experts , i'm kind new x following question strange trying modify contents colormap failed without reason \( \) using following piece code toplevel xtinitialize \( argv 0 , , null , 0 , argc , argv \) dpy xtdisplay \( toplevel \) scr defaultscreen \( dpy \) def colormap \( dpy , scr \) \( \( dpy , def colormap , true , null , 0 , cells , 5 \) \) color pixel cells 0 color red 250 color green 125 color blue 0 color flags xstorecolor \( dpy , def colormap , color \) printf \( n try allocate , color \( , , \) , color pixel , color red , color green , color blue \) \( dpy , def colormap , color \) printf \( n allocate , color \( , , \) , color pixel , color red , color green , color blue \) else printf \( n error could n't allocate color cells \) running output try allocate , color 7 \( 250 , 125 , 0 \) allocate , color 7 \( 0 , 0 , 0 \) xstorecolor \( \) , \( \) returned original value failure error displayed contents colormap obvious unchanged \( also tried draw line using colors turned unmodified colors \) problem \? modify contents colormap \? help information appreciated please send mail yang cs umass edu william email yang cs umass edu way , following environment using \( output xdpyinfo \) shows default visual pseudocolor version number 11 0 vendor string decwindows 2 vendor release number 1 maximum request size \( bytes \) motion buffer size 100 bitmap unit , bit order , padding 32 , , 32 image byte order number supported pixmap formats 2 supported pixmap formats depth 1 , bits per pixel 1 , scanline pad 32 depth 8 , bits per pixel 8 , scanline pad 32 keycode range minimum 86 , maximum 251 number extensions 8 adobe dps extension shape mit shm multi buffering mit nonstandard dec xtrap default screen number 0 number screens 1 screen 0 dimensions pixels \( millimeters \) resolution dots per inch depths \( 2 \) 1 , 8 root window id depth root window 8 planes number colormaps minimum 1 , maximum 1 default colormap default number colormap cells 256 pixels black 1 , white 0 options backing store yes , save yes current input event mask keypressmask buttonpressmask number visuals 5 default visual id visual visual id class pseudocolor depth 8 planes size colormap 256 entries red , green , blue masks 0x0 , 0x0 , 0x0 significant bits color specification 8 bits visual visual id class grayscale depth 8 planes size colormap 256 entries red , green , blue masks 0x0 , 0x0 , 0x0 significant bits color specification 8 bits visual visual id class depth 8 planes size colormap 256 entries red , green , blue masks 0x0 , 0x0 , 0x0 significant bits color specification 8 bits visual visual id class staticcolor depth 8 planes size colormap 256 entries red , green , blue masks , , significant bits color specification 8 bits visual visual id class truecolor depth 8 planes size colormap 8 entries red , green , blue masks , , significant bits color specification 8 bits number mono types 5 visual id , max buffers , depth , 0 , 8 visual id , max buffers , depth , 0 , 8 visual id , max buffers , depth , 0 , 8 visual id , max buffers , depth , 0 , 8 visual id , max buffers , depth , 0 , 8 number stereo types 0
qualix com \( doug \) subject macx 1 2 color problem reply qualix com organization qualix group , inc lines 43 article ux1 cso uiuc edu , kerr ux1 cso uiuc edu \( stan kerr \) writes peculiar color problem macx , apple 's macintosh x server 'd like know others seen problem 's happened current version \( 1 2 \) , version 1 1 7 types client windows displayed , parts windows wrong color window moved slightly , forcing server repaint , repainted correct colors n't happen xterm windows , happened graphic windows motif clients expect going colormap full , new application starts , cannot add colors needs colormap therefore pick choose existing colors makes look ugly 's window gets priority macx changes colormap selected app getting exact colors wanted , applications make 's colormap problem color x servers \( least color xservers seen \) demands applications exceed size colormap solution usually \( 1 \) avoid colormap greedy apps \( 2 \) display applications color icing cake monochrome mode rather color \( option application \) doug voice 415 572 0200 fax 415 572 1300 email qualix com mail qualix group 1900 norfolk st , 224 san mateo , ca qualix maintains mailserver information files demo versions products would like information mailserver , send email qualix com \( uunet ! qualix ! \) email take following form begin send help send index end name address phone
ethan cs columbia edu \( ethan solomita \) subject forcing window manager accept specific coordinates window organization columbia university department computer science lines 17 hi i'm trying figure make window manager place window create window command tells , regardless may think right \( application reason know better \) n't want set override redirect want embellishments window manager gives , want wm accept choice location 've tried twm , tvtwm mwm thanks , ethan
tommc hpcvusj cv hp com \( tom mcfarland \) subject mysterious beeping nntp posting host hpcvusj cv hp com reply tommc cv hp com organization hewlett packard corvallis lines 40 article wp cup hp com , defaria cup hp com \( andy defaria \) writes article crossposted hp windows author andy defaria posted mon , 19 apr 1993 18 08 38 gmt reason following code causes x application beep whenever intercept keystroke change 's meaning intent code allow date fields following special keys tt insert today 's date bump day one bump day one hardcoded dates example perhaps n't using xmtext field reason following code beeps whenever special keys tt hit \? idea code interpret keys special meaning implied code would like get rid beeping , far tell , i'm beep lose understanding beeping occuring code deleted xmtextfield man page \( discussion resources \) specifies whether bell sound action reversed verification callback setting doit false callback , text field beeping turn behavior , set boolean resource false tom mcfarland tommc cv hp com
dealy narya gsfc nasa gov \( brian dealy csc \) subject monthly question xcopyarea \( \) expose events organization nasa goddard space flight center lines 43 distribution world nntp posting host narya gsfc nasa gov originator dealy narya gsfc nasa gov \( 2nd posting question n't seem get answered \) suppose idle app realized mapped window contains xlib graphics button widget , pressed , cause new item drawn window action clearly call xcopyarea \( \) \( equiv \) directly instead , register existence new item memory structure let expose event handler handles regular expose events \( e g window manager driven exposures \) take care rendering new image using expose event handler proper way time handler called , xlib window guaranteed mapped problem , course , expose event generated window already visible mapped need somehow tickle window expose handler hit arguments enable render part window contains new item best way tickle window produce behavior \? understand problem correctly , want way send exposures manager widget app specific code draws xlib graphics window sounds like might want send exposure using xsendevent specifying region know region need send exposure , generally bounding rectangle objects , use xcreateregion create region , add new object polygons region , either use region clip gc redraw use test objects need redrawn keeping mind stacking order overlapping objects affects look hope helps brian dealy 301 572 8267 knowing 's dealy kong gsfc nasa gov 's important , 's knowing ! uunet ! dftsrv ! kong ! dealy 's b dylan brian dealy 301 572 8267 knowing 's dealy kong gsfc nasa gov 's important , 's knowing ! uunet ! dftsrv ! kong ! dealy 's b dylan
cs uh edu \( huang \) subject ask ftp address kerberos version 5 draft rfc organization computer science dept , univ houston \( main campus \) lines 1 distribution world nntp posting host rodin cs uh edu
masc0442 ucsnews sdsu edu \( todd greene \) subject find appcontext \? organization san diego state university , college sciences lines 14 nntp posting host ucssun1 sdsu edu keywords context , xt , motif , application x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 xt call give application context \? fixing x motif program , trying use xtappaddtimeout , whose first argument app context call use give value \? thanks , todd greene masc0442 ucssun1 sdsu edu
nancie neko css gov \( nancie p marin \) subject xcopyplane question organization internet lines 36 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu article buzz lion bear com buzz bear com \( buzz moschetti \) write article whaley sigma kpc com whaley sigma kpc com \( ken whaley \) writes actually , must also ask faq 's 1 popular reason graphics n't show wait expose event drawing rectangle \? suppose idle app realized mapped window contains xlib graphics button widget , pressed , cause new item drawn window action clearly call xcopyarea \( \) \( equiv \) directly instead , register existence new item memory structure let expose event handler take care rendering image time guaranteed window mapped problem , course , expose event generated window visible mapped know best way tickle window expose event handler invoked draw new item \? original question \? \? \? previously stated xcopyarea depth 8 pixmap screen make sure image data , problem expose events , xcopyplane working ! ! ! anyone code fragment could send demonstrating xcopyplane works \? \? \? would helpful ! thanks ! nancie p marin net nancie neko css gov inc mail 445 ct melbourne , fl \( 407 \) 254 fax \( 407 \) 254
tom dont use netcom com \( thomas \) subject wcl solaris 2 \? organization internet lines 15 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu , tom dont use netcom com version wcl ported solaris 2 , including ansi c \? numerous problems trying compile wcl solaris , functions prototypes wcl 2 01 sun user group 's 1992 cds please email answers list tom capital management sciences west los angeles 310 479 manually address answers zuma ! tom netcomsv netcom com
adrian ora com \( adrian nye \) subject xwininfo organization o'reilly associates , inc lines 11 reply adrian ora com nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu want equivalent xwininfo name via call set calls xlib need map windows name id 's probably easy , 've programming x little x source code \? simply look mit clients xwininfo xwininfo c find exactly \) adrian nye o'reilly associates
mx \( virginia \) subject \( none \) organization internet lines 7 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert athena mit edu working problem scheduling classroom , like know software , papers articles something relate , please let know thanks
whaley sigma kpc com \( ken whaley \) subject xcopyplane question reply buzz bear com 's message 19 apr 93 14 15 38 gmt organization kubota pacific computer inc buzz lion bear com lines 33 article whaley sigma kpc com whaley sigma kpc com \( ken whaley \) writes actually , must also ask faq 's 1 popular reason graphics n't show wait expose event drawing rectangle \? suppose idle app realized mapped window contains xlib graphics button widget , pressed , cause new item drawn window action clearly call xcopyarea \( \) \( equiv \) directly instead , register existence new item memory structure let expose event handler take care rendering image time guaranteed window mapped problem , course , expose event generated window visible mapped know best way tickle window expose event handler invoked draw new item \? specifically made comment assuming perhaps code fragment came simple open draw quit client per question button handler add object , call window redraw \( \) \( whatever \) directly \? although , depending overall application structured , may problem rendering object directly response button press ken kenneth whaley \( 408 \) 748 6347 kubota pacific computer , inc email whaley kpc com 2630 walsh avenue santa clara , ca 95051
csgrad cs vt edu \( ramakrishnan \) subject mwm title drag crashes x server \( sigpipe \) organization vpi su computer science department , blacksburg , va lines 55 environment mach arch sparc sun4 \( ipx \) os sunos 4 1 3 x11 x11r5 \( patchlevel 22 \) motif 1 2 2 bring x server using usr bin x11 xsun following sequence actions crashes x server \( sigpipe , errno 32 , 'xinit' reports x server lost \) 1 xinit xsun 2 start mwm 3 start client 100dpi 75dpi font 4 move window dragging title bar server dumps core due sigpipe one two messages printed connection x server lost connection broken \( errno 32 \) \( believe first reported client second server \) next , ran xdm debug level 5 set actions , xdm reports select returns 1 server 0 terminated unexpectedly status 2560 note problem n't occur window managers \( twm olwm \) set ld library path running font server start client fixed width font , see problem font path usr lib x11 fonts misc , usr lib x11 fonts speedo , usr lib x11 fonts 75dpi , usr lib x11 fonts 100dpi \( mkfontdir usr lib x11 fonts 100dpi , usr lib x11 fonts 75dpi , usr lib x11 fonts pex , usr lib x11 fonts speedo , usr lib x11 fonts misc \) problem seems occur ipx machines see problem ipc workstations questions hell \? \) status 2560 mean \( server \) 'd greatly appreciate hints cause problem ramakrishnan , cs dept , hall ,
dale wente llnl gov \( dale \) subject xlock organization lawrence livermore national laboratory lines 11 distribution world nntp posting host llnl gov found oddity sgi indigo \( mips r3000 chip \) xlock running , working remotely batch \( \) mode , runtime programs \( timed using clock \( \) code \) 25 slower xlock running processes seem affect , yet consistent ! explanations , real imagined \) thanx dale llnl gov
cjhs minster york ac uk subject xt intrinsics slow popups organization department computer science , university york , england lines 19 keywords help running sample problems o'reilly volume 4 , xt programming manual , chapter 3 popup dialog boxes example 3 5 , page 76 creating pop dialog box application creates window button quit press button press pops dialog box strange feature program always pops dialog box much faster first time try pop 2nd time \( 3rd , 4th time \) , much slower anyone experience sample programs , get behaviour fast response time first time slow response time 2nd time onwards \? anyone give ideas program popups time popup reasonable fast response time \? thankyou shirley
janzen mpr ca \( martin janzen \) subject put rpc hp x motif environment \? nntp posting host reply janzen mprgate mpr ca organization mpr teltech ltd lines 30 article news2 cis umn edu , ianhogg milli cs umn edu \( ian j hogg \) writes article 1993apr19 sol ctr columbia edu nova ctr columbia edu \( nui chan \) writes anybody implements rpc server hp xwindows \? sun xview , notify enable rpc svc \( \) call automatically executes rpc processes detects incoming request wonder similar function hp x motif perform function 've using package year believe got export glad hear 's working ! could n't find export however , simon simon epfl ch added imakefile athena version , made available ftp file epfl ch pub x contrib tar z \( note z suffix 'll need gnu gzip also pub gnu uncompress \) n't work , send note 'd happy mail copy probably wo n't get start may i'm holidays tomorrow ! \) martin janzen janzen mprgate mpr ca \( 134 87 131 13 \) mpr teltech ltd nelson way burnaby , bc , canada p dublin x folks want go guinness , say , 's \?
mahan tgv com \( patrick l mahan \) subject drawing lines \( inverse xor \) organization internet lines 51 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu , dyoung media mit edu i'm trying write code lets draw lines rubber band boxes motif x i'm running 8 bit display 've created colormap using almost colors want draw lines drawing area widget widget i'm displaying bitmap using xputimage \( \) n't matter lines draw interactively stay around window refreshed currently , draw interactively , begin drawindex index reserve foreground default bg color color index background image palette colors drawindex red palette colors default bg color red palette colors drawindex green palette colors default bg color green palette colors drawindex blue palette colors default bg color blue xstorecolors \( mydisplay , cmap , palette colors drawindex , 1 \) xflush \( mydisplay \) xsetfunction \( mydisplay , gc , gxxor \) xsetforeground \( mydisplay , gc , drawindex \) draw xdrawline \( mydisplay , xtwindow \( \) , gc , x1 , y1 , x2 , y2 \) xflush \( mydisplay \) i'm done , return things normal xsetfunction \( mydisplay , gc , gxcopy \) 'd like happen lines draw inverse whatever i'm drawing instead happens get white lines lines white background nothing shows lines black area nothing shows ! 's strange gxxor function seems right since rubber banding box , erases redraws correctly \( ie disturbing underlying image \) suggestions i'm wrong \? believe work color display must set foreground gc \( foreground background \) patrick l mahan tgv window washer mahan tgv com waking person unnecessarily considered lazarus long capital crime first offense , notebooks lazarus long
ucsu colorado edu \( christopher r bailey \) subject cause timeout \? summary force strip chart update nntp posting host ucsu colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 20 problem athena strip chart widget calling 's get value function pretty sure happening using xtappmainloop , dealing events via sockets \( ya ya \) anyway , want cause timeout strip chart widget \( \) call get value callback someone knows another fast way around \( way matter \) let know cannot \( n't think \) call callback n't value third parameter get value proc \( xtpointer call data \) words , want force strip chart widget update ideas anyone \? christopher r bailey internet dendrite cs colorado edu university colorado boulder compuserve , ride fast , take chances !
cerna nec co jp \( alexander cerna \( sv \) \) subject transparent widgets \? organization internet lines 8 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu cc cerna nec co jp need write application annotation notes existing documents annotation could done several times different people idea something like several transparencies stacked top user see 've seen something like done oclock client could someone please tell xt \? thank much
rainer sun3 eeam elin co \( rainer hochreiter \) subject multi screen apps window managers organization elin energeanwendung ges b h lines 20 nntp posting host sun3 eeam elin co x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 jo pelkey phone \( 509 \) 375 battelle pacific northwest labs fax \( 509 \) 375 mail stop k7 22 email je pelkey pnl gov p box 999 richland , wa hi jo , i'm also interested questions , get answers via email via repost please let know thanks , rainer rainer hochreiter telephone 43 \( 1 \) 89100 3961 elin energieanwendung gesmbh telefax 43 \( 1 \) 89100 3387 penzingerstr 76 1141 wien , austria europe e mail rainer elin co
mahan tgv com \( patrick l mahan \) subject find appcontext organization internet lines 24 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu , masc0442 sdsu edu xt call give application context \? fixing x motif program , trying use xtappaddtimeout , whose first argument app context call use give value \? use \( \) retreive application context patrick l mahan tgv window washer mahan tgv com waking person unnecessarily considered lazarus long capital crime first offense , notebooks lazarus long patrick l mahan tgv window washer mahan tgv com waking person unnecessarily considered lazarus long capital crime first offense , notebooks lazarus long
suresh iss nus sg \( suresh thennarangam research scholar \) subject x device driver bird nntp posting host iss nus sg organization institute systems science , nus x newsreader tin 1 1 pl4 lines 16 anyone written device driver use ascension bird xwindows \? \( \) \( \( \) \( \( \) \) suresh thennarangam email suresh iss nus sg \( internet \) research scholar nusvm bitnet institute systems science tel \( 065 \) 772 national university singapore \( 065 \) 778 heng keng terrace telex rs singapore 0511
slate mines colorado edu \( gallagher andrea j \) subject forcing window manager accept specific coordinates window organization colorado school mines lines 18 article cs columbia edu ethan solomita writes hi i'm trying figure make window manager place window create window command tells , regardless may think right \( application reason know better \) n't want set override redirect want embellishments window manager gives , want wm accept choice location window xcreatewindow \( \) \( display , window , window \) xmapwindow \( \) probably cheating , window managers might still refuse give border stuff , usually works
root com \( operator \) subject devguide motif solaris 2 2 ease motif burden summary sun helps software developers support motif keywords sun , gui , motif , devguide organization inc lines 25 've developed number applications using devguide found useful tool 've impressed level integration using connection editor love general ease use talked sun today devguide motif helpful provided input 'd like see next version devguide comments mentioned going post email message offered receive additional comments net devguide evolve send comments wish list , raving , et al devguide sun com pretty cool example company cares want computers may future frankly , like idea offer capability doe integrated tooltalk capability , pointed march 's magazine technology works , interfaces devguide price outstanding
alf st nepean uws edu au \( andrew leahy \) subject running dxterm 's onto apollo dec 5000 240 organization university western sydney , nepean x newsreader tin 1 1 pl4 lines 36 help ! i'm trying run dxterm 's \( xterm \) decstation 5000 240 \( ultrix 4 3 , x11r4 , motif 1 1 3 \) display variable set apollo \( domain os 10 3 , x11r4 , motif \? \? \) get errors appearing decstation dxterm x toolkit warning cannot convert string key type virtualbinding x toolkit warning cannot convert string key type virtualbinding x toolkit warning cannot convert string key type virtualbinding x toolkit warning cannot convert string key type virtualbinding x toolkit warning cannot convert string key type virtualbinding x toolkit warning cannot convert string key type virtualbinding x toolkit warning cannot convert string key type virtualbinding x toolkit warning cannot convert string key type virtualbinding segmentation fault ideas \? motif problem dec apollo versions motif incompatible \? something xkeysymdb \? \( xterms run fine dec displaying apollo \) need run dxterm package using dec 's , oracle case , uses dxterm default , lab apollo workstations would like run oracle andrew alf leahy , alf st nepean uws edu au andrew alf leahy phone \( 047 \) \( w \) irc pepsi alf uni western sydney , nepean remote email alf st nepean uws edu au sydney , australia local email alf
slate mines colorado edu \( gallagher andrea j \) subject xalloccolor fails return nearest match reply ngorelic speclab cr usgs gov organization colorado school mines lines 23 posted friend okay , looked faqs n't see , know come xalloccolor supposed following order try find exact match read color cell \( within hardware limits \) try allocate read colorcell set match else fails , return colorcell best match read colors already allocated colormap sounds good theory n't seem work way though exact match already colormap , cells , xalloccolor fails , even already allocated several cells already , dozens read cells already colormap bug \? feature \? misunderstanding part \? help appreciated , noel \( ngorelic speclab cr usgs gov \)
snail lsl co uk subject xlib ms windows xserver ! ! ! organization laser scan ltd , cambridge lines 16 article 1993apr7 topgun , topgun \( steven mikes \) writes another company , congruent corporation new york city , also ported xlib xt motif 1 1 ms windows nt , provides full client development x applications nt environment could someone please send postal email address congruent corporation \( competitors may \) thank snail lsl co uk washing one 's hands conflict powerful powerless means side powerful , neutral quote freire poster
buzz bear com \( buzz moschetti \) subject xcopyplane question buzz lion bear com whaley sigma kpc com reply buzz bear com \( buzz moschetti \) organization bear , stearns co fast lines 10 reply whaley sigma kpc com 's message 20 apr 93 01 12 28 gmt article whaley sigma kpc com whaley sigma kpc com \( ken whaley \) writes per question button handler add object , call window redraw \( \) \( whatever \) directly \? although , depending design work n't think take easily take advantage expose event redraw optimization , whole window redrawn , area new item p i'm replying mailer n't agree return address whaley sigma kpc com
cs uct ac za \( gerhard van \) subject problem \( \? \) organization computer science department , university cape town lines 50 trying compile source code mpeg animation viewer x windows got code ftp site modified makefile instructed , errors happens get following message everything going linked cc util video decoders hybrid gray mono main 24bit ordered mb ordered lib libx11 lib libxext lm mpeg play undefined first referenced symbol file lib libx11 lib libx11 lib libx11 open lib libx11 lib libx11 free lib libx11 error lib libx11 lib libx11 lib libx11 look lib libx11 errno lib libx11 close lib libx11 lib libx11 listen lib libx11 lib libx11 lib libx11 bind lib libx11 connect lib libx11 accept lib libx11 nc perror lib libx11 inet addr lib libx11 ld mpeg play fatal error symbol referencing errors output written mpeg play error code 1 \( \) make fatal error anyone know missing functions located \? help \? posted one unix groups , tried suggestions always get error know using unix system v machines 486 's terminals want use separate called x terminals seem dedicated i'm sure really , since one first times x windows ! , first time programming , speak use alot graphics things help , mail soon gerard
leon dk \( leon \) subject x intrinsic mailing list organization internet lines 14 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu n't get newsfeed wondering whether thing xt mailing list \( xpert expo lcs mit edu \) would appreciate info , \( x related mailing lists \) thanks advance , leon leon telephone 45 45 93 51 00 aps fax 45 45 93 51 11 e mail leon dk dk 2800 , denmark ! uunet ! dk ! leon
bryan alex com \( bryan \) return path news subject xt intrinsics slow popups nntp posting host reply bryan alex com organization alex technologies ltd , london , england lines 15 article minster york ac uk , cjhs minster york ac uk writes application creates window button quit press button press pops dialog box strange feature program always pops dialog box much faster first time try pop 2nd time \( 3rd , 4th time \) , much slower shell waiting window manager respond positioning request window manager responding thinks window already right place exactly two components get sulk unclear information greatly received bryan
mcl bdm com \( brent taylor \) subject xdm decnet \? organization bdm international , inc lines 10 nntp posting host jupiter mcl bdm com xdm work decnet \? ultrix machine running tcp ip decnet number x terminals hanging ultrix host also running tcp ip decnet presently using xdm login procedure x terminals using tcp ip since xdm basically x windows client , n't able run xdm decnet protocol tower well \? first inclination xdm typical x client making tcp ip specific socket calls case answer would run xdm decnet right \? feedback appreciated thanks
mccoy gothamcity jsc nasa gov \( daniel mccoy \) subject compiling sun4 411 reply mccoy gothamcity jsc nasa gov organization net inc lines 27 article andrew cmu edu , wilson andrew cmu edu \( \) writes piece x code compiles fine pmax , pmax mach , well sun4 mach , whenever compiles sun4 411 , gives undefined ld errors sin cos pow floor get wmshellwidgetclass get applicationshellwidgetclass following libraries linked lxaw lxmu lxt lxext lx11 makefile generated imake template anyone give pointers i'm missing compile sun4 411 \? well , first 2 easy need math library try adding lm lx11 n't know 's whole problem 's start daniel j mccoy space net , inc nasa mail code pt4 tel 713 483 nasa johnson space center fax 713 244 houston , texas 77058 future mccoy gothamcity jsc nasa gov
n r ellis newcastle ac uk \( nigel r ellis \) subject keyboard map uk type 5 keyboard x11 r5 \? nntp posting host ws ac uk x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 reply n r ellis durham ac uk organization computer science , university durham , durham , uk lines 16 hi , anyone keyboard map sun uk type 5 keyboard use x11 r5 \? thanks , nigel nigel r ellis , artificial intelligence group , n r ellis durham ac uk computer science , university durham , 44 91 374 durham england fax 44 91 374
aruit idca tds philips nl \( anton de ruiter \) subject \? \? \? top 30 motif applications \? \? \? organization digital equipment enterprise bv , apeldoorn , netherlands lines 35 hello everybody , searching \( business \) information motif applications , create top 30 used , spreadsheets , drawing programs , schedulers fax programs , etc please mail information references summaries results media thank advance , anton de ruiter digital equipment corporation \) workgroup products \( \) \( \( \) \( \( ' \( \( \( ' \( \) ing anton de ruiter mba software product manager post office box 245 ' 7300 ae apeldoorn , netherlands \( \) \( \( \) \( \) 41 45 nr apeldoorn , netherlands \) mail ruiter \( \) \( \( \( \( 829 location apd f1 internet aruit idca tds philips nl \) \) uucp ! mcsun ! ! aruit \( \) \( ' \( \( \( \) phone 31 55 \( business \) phone 31 \( private \) fax 31 55
wpwood austin ibm com subject gcc building hp widget set linux reply wpwood austin ibm com \( bill woodward \) organization institute knowledge jinx lines 30 currently attempting get copy hp widget set compiled linux \( sls release kernel 99 6 \) running problems actually , seems gcc question , got compile without trouble using cc rs 6000 basically , number functions prototypes set , let 's say , h , instance , composite widget 's insert child procedure set type typedef void \( \) \( widget \) several places hp source code , reference insert child procedure pass multiple arguments instead one , prototype suggests example \( composite class insert child \) \( w , args , p num args \) , gcc chokes , giving error message many arguments passed function , anyone suggestions turn checking gcc , go changing code accomodate call without changing usr include x11 h , anyone successfully built hp widget set suggestions many thanks advance help bill woodward wpwood austin ibm com try first aix software support austin ibm com graphics group 512 838 terror night
weisberg ee rochester edu \( jeff weisberg \) subject problem r5 server hangs sun3 summary annoying problem , server hangs keywords , sun3 , , 4 1 1 , gcc 2 3 3 , xsun , equinox organization univ rochester , dept electrical engineering lines 19 recently compiled sources using gcc 2 3 3 sun3 80 everything seems work fine usually seemingly random times server hang click mouse somewhere \( never happens back turned \) , without warning , freeze , requiring server killed sometimes run fine weeks , sometimes minutes \( os 4 1 1 frame buffer \) anyone seen , ideas \? \( anything \? \) thanks , jeff jeff weisberg weisberg ee rochester edu real , ur ! weisberg watch pits !
pannon bcsfse ca boeing com \( joe pannon \) subject motif vs athena , etc organization project boeing computer services , seattle , wa lines 14 article kirk bu oz au , bambi kirk bu oz au \( david j hughes \) writes ports motif 386bsd linux available fee 100 cost recovery person bought rights redistribute activity bsd linux news groups pertaining motif high \? \? \? 've heard italian guy distributing motif binaries 386bsd , n't heard anybody thing linux follow linux news group pretty closely , missed something \? 'd love get hold motif libs linux 100 ! regards , joe pannon
mfltd co uk \( des \) subject xdm xsession woes keywords xdm , xterm lines 22 reply mfltd co uk organization micro focus ltd x newsreader 6 18 3 've managed get xdm running ncr 3000 \( svr4 486 box running xfree86 1 2 \) ncd 's pretty much working , i'm weird error i'm attempting start xterm xsession file , nothing happens stderr file using 2 home xsession reveals error message xterm error 14 , errno 1 owner , start xterm window manager , command line , works fine starting clients , like window manager \( mwm \) , clock , xsession also works anyone encountered \? suggestions \? des , wise man said , micro focus , newbury 44 \( \) takes lot brains smart , mfltd co uk takes neck giraffe
boote scd ucar edu \( jeff w boote \) subject mwm title drag crashes x server \( sigpipe \) organization ncar ucar lines 24 article creatures cs vt edu , csgrad cs vt edu \( ramakrishnan \) writes environment mach arch sparc sun4 \( ipx \) os sunos 4 1 3 x11 x11r5 \( patchlevel 22 \) motif 1 2 2 bring x server using usr bin x11 xsun following sequence actions crashes x server \( sigpipe , errno 32 , 'xinit' reports x server lost \) problem well cg6 graphics card comes ipx fixed problem apply uu part patch 7 patch 1 also used file perhaps n't apply one came patch 7 jeff jeff w boote boote ncar ucar edu scientific computing division nothing good bad national center atmospheric research thinking makes boulder hamlet
ianhogg milli cs umn edu \( ian j hogg \) subject find appcontext \? keywords context , xt , motif , application nntp posting host milli cs umn edu organization university minnesota , minneapolis , csci dept lines 16 article pandora sdsu edu masc0442 ucsnews sdsu edu \( todd greene \) writes xt call give application context \? fixing x motif program , trying use xtappaddtimeout , whose first argument app context call use give value \? get associated widget calling xtwidgettoapplicationcontext ian hogg ianhogg cs umn edu \( 612 \) 424
tommc hpcvusj cv hp com \( tom mcfarland \) subject mysterious beeping nntp posting host hpcvusj cv hp com reply tommc cv hp com organization hewlett packard corvallis lines 41 article wp cup hp com , defaria cup hp com \( andy defaria \) writes article crossposted hp windows author andy defaria posted mon , 19 apr 1993 18 08 38 gmt reason following code causes x application beep whenever intercept keystroke change 's meaning intent code allow date fields following special keys tt insert today 's date bump day one bump day one hardcoded dates example perhaps n't using xmtext field reason following code beeps whenever special keys tt hit \? idea code interpret keys special meaning implied code would like get rid beeping , far tell , i'm beep lose understanding beeping occuring code deleted xmtextfield man page \( discussion resources \) specifies whether bell sound action reversed verification callback setting doit false callback , text field beeping turn behavior , set boolean resource false tom mcfarland tommc cv hp com
dealy narya gsfc nasa gov \( brian dealy csc \) subject 2 get \? \? \? organization nasa goddard space flight center lines 11 distribution world nntp posting host narya gsfc nasa gov originator dealy narya gsfc nasa gov anyone know application retrieve name font application given \? would work passed xa font name \? anyone know details \? thanks advance brian brian dealy 301 572 8267 knowing 's dealy kong gsfc nasa gov 's important , 's knowing ! uunet ! dftsrv ! kong ! dealy 's b dylan
corp sgi com \( scott henry \) subject xlock organization silicon graphics inc , mountain view , ca lines 21 reply dale wente llnl gov 's message 20 apr 93 01 15 13 gmt nntp posting host corp sgi com article idi lll winken llnl gov , dale wente llnl gov \( dale \) writes dale found oddity sgi indigo \( mips r3000 chip \) dale xlock running , working remotely dale batch \( \) mode , runtime programs \( timed dale using clock \( \) code \) 25 slower dale xlock running processes seem affect dale , yet consistent ! unless run mode , xlock consumes cpu time generating nice animated display code running competing xlock cpu run top \( via remote login \) , really see going scott henry sgi com help ! disclaimer missing ! networking services , really means garbage , gospel silicon graphics , inc
cern ch \( j gerard \) subject xterm w ansi color mouse support organization cern european lab particle physics lines 24 brown ftms uucp \( vidiot \) writes article 1993apr4 584 vms huji ac il vms huji ac il writes 've several requests post information 've gathered regarding search ansi mouse color xterm source response larry w virden writes mit x11 r4 r5 provide mouse escape sequences several color xterm enhancements export lcs mit edu contrib indeed found color xterm tar z directory along lots fun stuff x thanks larry also found uunet pub window sys x contrib , \( like \) noticed thing dated 9 12 90 , making two years old really latest version \? talking xterm would accept escape sequences \( colour dxterm \) \? thought called \( testing shows might bugs might program going wrong \) i'm also unsure meant ansi mouse xterm !
kavitsky hsi com \( jim kavitsky \) subject comp windows x intrinsics summary clipping character 's high order bit nntp posting host hsi com organization 3m health information systems , ct lines 38 problem high order bit character clipped entered xterm window motif reprogrammed f1 key transmit ff character sequence using following line xdefaults ctrl shift alt key f1 string \( 0xff \) string \( \) n merge line xrdb merge create new xterm f1 key problem arises application recieving input time sees 7f 3e sequence , ff high order bit character filtered ignored run xev press f1 key , get correct value showing following two key events keypress event , serial 14 , synthetic , window , root , 0x0 , time , \( 67 , 80 \) , root \( 74 , 104 \) , state 0x0 , keycode 16 \( keysym , f1 \) , screen yes , xlookupstring gives 0 characters event , serial 16 , synthetic , window , root , 0x0 , time , \( 67 , 80 \) , root \( 74 , 104 \) , state 0x0 , keycode 16 \( keysym , f1 \) , screen yes , xlookupstring gives 0 characters notice keysym transmitted correct use f1 key vi program wrote spit back hex values keyboard input , get 7f 3e anyone know high order bit filtered make sure entire 8bits make final application \? help greatly appreciated please email responses jim kavitsky kavitsky hsi com
rob earhart earhart cmu edu subject mix gl x \( xlib , xt , mwm \) organization pittsburgh supercomputing center lines 15 nntp posting host po3 andrew cmu edu reply sparc1 jade com yes , 's possible fact , 's gl widget code usr gl somewhere \( 's named glib c ibm 's right though , ca n't find exact location \) warning code feels quite bogus things like calling \( \) winopen \( \) , extracting x window id anyway worked fine aix 3 1 spent last weekend trying port 3 2 \( gl 3 2 n't seem like \) , 's turning hard job check info pages pretty good documentation ca n't mixing gl x , go \) rob
mufti uucp \( saad mufti \) subject faq group distribution usa organization personal library software , inc lines 11 could kind soul point right direction faq list group thanks saad mufti personal library software e mail mufti pls com
klee synoptics com \( ken lee \) subject xalloccolor fails return nearest match reply klee synoptics com organization synoptics communications , santa clara ca lines 19 nntp posting host bugsbunny synoptics com article slate mines colorado edu , slate mines colorado edu \( gallagher andrea j \) writes posted friend okay , looked faqs n't see , know come xalloccolor supposed following order try find exact match read color cell \( within hardware limits \) try allocate read colorcell set match else fails , return colorcell best match read colors already allocated colormap hear \? printed book somewhere , throw away book according mit specs , first 2 true ken lee , klee synoptics com
carl teal csn org \( carl \) subject need font family , weight slant instance widget summary need font family , weight slant instance widget keywords font nntp posting host teal csn org organization colorado supernet , inc lines 10 get font family , weight slant instance widget \? using \( \) , \( \) \( \) get size font \( bunch stuff concerning font \) nowhere found family , weight slant assume access source family , weight slant used creating thanks bunch great day , carl carl com
klee synoptics com \( ken lee \) subject transparent widgets \? reply klee synoptics com organization synoptics communications , santa clara ca lines 17 nntp posting host bugsbunny synoptics com article nec co jp , cerna nec co jp \( alexander cerna \( sv \) \) writes need write application annotation notes existing documents annotation could done several times different people idea something like several transparencies stacked top user see 've seen something like done oclock client could someone please tell xt \? thank much oclock widget written using shape extension widgets current widgets support shape , 'll subclass add functionality ken lee , klee synoptics com
pyeatt texaco com \( larry pyeatt \) subject mix gl x \( xlib , xt , mwm \) nntp posting host 211 2 1 197 organization texaco lines 36 article sparc1 jade com , graham sparc1 ottawa jade com \( jay graham \) writes developing x \( xt , xm \) application include graphics window sort moving symbols among things pure x application could implemented motif widgets , one would xmdrawingarea drawing xlib would like take advantage graphics library \( gl \) available ibm rs 6000 \( sgi 's gl believe \) possible mix x gl one application program \? use gl subroutines xmdrawingarea x window opened \? widget already defined gl glxmdraw \( motif \) \( athena \) widget similar xmdrawingarea , except allows use gl calls render window look , , , man pages never used gl , doc gl winopen \( \) says first time winopen \( \) called opens connection server also , gl calls require display gc , unlike x calls initial information appears x gl cannot mixed easily true \? glxmdraw widget works pretty well opengl improvement pex \( graphigs \? \) functionality gl \? think gl little easier use little powerful , 's opinion mileage may vary larry pyeatt views expressed internet pyeatt texaco com employer anyone voice \( 713 \) 975 know possible exception
inria fr \( vincent \) subject monthly question xcopyarea \( \) expose events organization inria , sophia \( fr \) lines 55 article buzz lion bear com , buzz bear com \( buzz moschetti \) writes \( 2nd posting question n't seem get answered \) suppose idle app realized mapped window contains xlib graphics button widget , pressed , cause new item drawn window action clearly call xcopyarea \( \) \( equiv \) directly instead , register existence new item memory structure let expose event handler handles regular expose events \( e g window manager driven exposures \) take care rendering new image using expose event handler proper way time handler called , xlib window guaranteed mapped problem , course , expose event generated window already visible mapped need somehow tickle window expose handler hit arguments enable render part window contains new item best way tickle window produce behavior \? incrementally update contents windows , use following trick 1 set window background none , 2 call xcleararea \( display , window , 0 , 0 , 0 , 0 , true \) , 3 restore window background correct value call xcleararea repaint window background , still generates exposure events visible parts window order let application know expose events must handled incrementally \( something already displayed screen may need erased \) , 3 operations 2 self addressed client messages , preserve client server \( display \) client message \( start incremental \) background none xcleararea restore background client message \( end incremental \) \( display \) prevents events inserted server critical section vincent , group sophia inria bp 93 sophia cedex france sophia inria fr , \( 33 \) 93 65 78 42 , fax \( 33 \) 93 65 77 66
bentz uucp \( ray bentz \) subject sparc ipc sprite goes screen organization consulting inc lines 21 environment x11r4 motif 1 1 4 sun ipc 4 1 3 problem mouse moved across screen horizontally , sprite goes edge screen reappears edge appears server thinks running multi screen mode cursor seems wrap one side screen far tell , running server multi screen mode please reply via e mail ray bentz phone \( 609 \) 727 4600 consulting , inc fax \( 609 \) 778 1200 church street uunet uunet ! ! bentz mount laurel , nj internet ! bentz uunet uu net
whaley sigma kpc com \( ken whaley \) subject xcopyplane question reply nancie neko css gov 's message 19 apr 1993 19 48 30 0400 organization kubota pacific computer inc lines 52 article buzz lion bear com buzz bear com \( buzz moschetti \) write article whaley sigma kpc com whaley sigma kpc com \( ken whaley \) writes actually , must also ask faq 's 1 popular reason graphics n't show wait expose event drawing rectangle \? suppose idle app realized mapped window contains xlib graphics button widget , pressed , cause new item drawn window action clearly call xcopyarea \( \) \( equiv \) directly instead , register existence new item memory structure let expose event handler take care rendering image time guaranteed window mapped problem , course , expose event generated window visible mapped know best way tickle window expose event handler invoked draw new item \? original question \? \? \? previously stated xcopyarea depth 8 pixmap screen make sure image data , problem expose events , xcopyplane working ! ! ! anyone code fragment could send demonstrating xcopyplane works \? \? \? would helpful ! thanks ! original question many times beginning x users \( heck , experienced x users ! \) write small test programs many times forget draw response expose events , thus see results whereby sometimes application 's graphics show , sometimes n't 're trying eliminate easy explanations 're seeing graphics said , n't try copying different planes window 16 \( 1 4 \) try 1 , 1 1 , 1 2 , , 1 7 see get output since 're single plane data , 's possible pixel values pixmap value color plane ken kenneth whaley \( 408 \) 748 6347 kubota pacific computer , inc email whaley kpc com 2630 walsh avenue santa clara , ca 95051
victor france hp com \( victor french crc \) subject running dxterm 's onto apollo dec 5000 240 organization internet lines 61 alf st nepean uws edu au cc xpert expo lcs mit edu apollo \( domain os 10 3 , x11r4 , motif \? \? \) think running , 's x11r3 server want x11r4 server install \( 10 3 5 \) 10 4 run get errors appearing decstation dxterm x toolkit warning cannot convert string key type virtualbinding segmentation fault ideas \? motif problem dec apollo versions motif incompatible \? something xkeysymdb \? xkeysymdb could add ! apollo specific ! victor victor france hp com oooo oooo victor people expect \( \( \) \)
arana es \( jose luis arana \) subject x graphics accelerators organization internet lines 7 xpert expo lcs mit edu obtain public information \( documentation sources \) xservers implemented graphics processors \? specially interested xservers developed texas instruments graphic processor please send answer arana es
haywood sheffield hallam ac uk \( dave haywood \) subject tvtwm xsetroot , x11r5 sparc 10 keyboard organization sheffield hallam university lines 66 reply haywood sheffield hallam ac uk xpert expo lcs mit edu hi , please reply direct member list new x , please excuse lax \( read probably incorrect \) terminology ! environment sun sparc 10 , sunos 4 1 3 x11r5 path level 23 x process started xdm \) want setup \( root window \? \) tvtwm display display etc \( grey boring colour work \) ! setup follows lib x11 xdm 0 xsetroot bitmap etc user xsession xsetroot etc tvtwm also xdefaults files \( user \) home directory xsetroot 0 displays appropriate bitmap xdm login window expected nice ! unfortunately , users session started , background tvtwm window grey manually type xsetroot xterm window session started , background changed expected question retain background login window specify new background per user basis part users session startup \? ii \) open xterm sparc 10 , keys recognised keys keyboard sending correct characters ie real key key shown screen hash back slash pipe double quote symbol pound hash cursor key recognised annoying ! x fault machine setup \? installed xterm drivers came x11r5 termcap seemed typing set xterm window shows terminal type xterm expected ! help correct either problems much appreciated ! thanks , dave janet haywood uk ac sheffield hallam dave haywood haywood uk ac shu computer services , internet haywood shu ac uk sheffield hallam university telex g pond street , tel 44 742 533 828 sheffield s1 england fax 44 742 533 840 x 400 haywood sheffield hallam prmd uk ac admd c gb x 500 c gb sheffield hallam university ou computer services cn dave haywood
barr pop psu edu \( david barr \) subject tvtwm xsetroot , x11r5 sparc 10 keyboard organization penn state population research institute lines 32 nntp posting host darwin pop psu edu article 101 384 oak shu ac uk haywood sheffield hallam ac uk writes hi , environment sun sparc 10 , sunos 4 1 3 x11r5 path level 23 x process started xdm okay , 's good i'm typing exactly setup \( us unix layout keyboard \) install sunkbd patch , though \) want setup \( root window \? \) tvtwm display display etc \( grey boring colour work \) ! make sure 're using ssetroot , comes tvtwm tvtwm starts , nukes existing root window use ssetroot tvtwm starts \( could spawn \( sleep 10 ssetroot \) \) also use filename want another color besides grey ii \) open xterm sparc 10 , keys recognised keys keyboard sending correct characters install sunkbd patch \? 's contrib directory export keys keyboard send events properly , except following end , , 6 key cluster n't recognized even compose key works \( though ca n't seem get composed characters xterm get passed \) anyone fix last two \? dave system administrator , penn state population research institute dog \( woof woof woof \? page 725 \) kibo
paul def bae co uk \( paul byrne \) subject imake help needed reply paul def bae co uk organization british aerospace \( defence \) ltd lines 19 hi someone please give pointers setting imake sun openwindows \? 've checked documentation find clues please via e mail thanks paul paul byrne british aerospace defence ltd dynamics division email paul byrne def bae co uk 450 p box 5 , phone bristol ,
cb iris stanford edu \( christopher lee \) subject help ! setting colormaps multi top level app keywords glx mixed model , colormap organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa lines 71 dear sgi netter gl x mixed model experts , writing mixed model application creates couple different color maps different windows , 've trouble getting window manager reliably honor requests environments \( entry level r3000 indigo w 4 0 5 \) windows getting properly connected designated color maps , others \( iris 4d 240 gtx also different entry level indigo \) color mapping unreliable changes behavior compile different times common problem non top level windows fail displayed according colormap application starts creating three top level windows cases first also fail displayed colormap would dearly appreciate 1 explanation standard , right , correct way give window colormap window manager honor obey 2 advice problems could cause failure get desired colormaps exhausted attempts , tried everything reasonable imaginable example code giving schematic trying please , please , please somebody tell wrong right ! ! ! , chris lee display dpy declare data colormap popup cmap xcolor window win xsetwindowattributes int window wlist nb brevity , showing code lines schematic popup cmap xcreatecolormap \( dpy , defaultrootwindow \( dpy \) , vis visual , \) store bunch colors using xstorecolor \( dpy , popup cmap , \) colormap popup cmap win xcreatewindow \( dpy , parent , x , , w , h , , vis depth , inputoutput , vis visual , cwcolormap , \) list sub windows , parent win , wlist counter entries wlist nb wlist static storage relied go away corrupted thought ! anyone know setting wm properties data copy , reference pointer \? ie acceptable pass data property , free data \? \( dpy , , wlist , \) xmapraised \( , win \) later handle normally typical
ksc cbnewsk cb att com \( kenneth \) subject xfree86 esix 4 0 4 organization distribution na keywords esix lines 39 hello netlanders novice x user question computer configuration x problem follows 486dx50 256 running esix 4 0 4 wangtek style interface 250 tape drive loaded basic os \( includes nsu \) inet utilities \( tcp ip \) ftp ed xfree86 \( x11r5 \) binaries installed properly execute startx run x windows problems however , try access tape drive x , machine locks instantly x access tape , tape drive works fine soon try startx screen changes modes , , grey background pattern come xterm login another terminal execute shutdown reset system 've contacted esix problem claim x window x11r4 server \( \) works wangtek tape drive also claim need nsu \( network system utilities \) run x n't need inet \( tcp ip \) experience need get xfree86 work i'm concerned load nsu inet packages get x work unless inet package causing problem would like get x tape drive co exist system shed light problem , would appreciated one colleague implied might hardware conflict true , direction look resolve conflict \? thanks , kenneth ksc att com bell laboratories 263 blvd naperville , il
nl \( hans \) subject cursors organization internet lines 19 motif alfalfa com , xpert expo lcs mit edu according osf motif style guide , one use cursor shapes give user visual clue happening expected cursor shown application busy , caution cursor shown area input expected another defining cursors widgets done rather low level defining cursor widgets application certain , rather complicated matter cursors defined windows , e g cursor , things get even complicated intuition says things easier , \? anyone solid complete solution problem , please let know topics busy cursors several faq 's helpful , since work applications windows cursor window attribute set hans phone \( 31 \) \( 0 \) research bv e mail nl surface 1 nl th
jra wti com \( jim atkinson \) subject detect local vs remote display settings \? reply jra wti com organization wavefront technologies inc , santa barbara , ca lines 17 nntp posting host wti com x disclaimer spokesperson wavefront technologies , inc trying find application running local remote display local display connected system client executing access display string tell string \? client executing host foo 0 , unix 0 , foo 0 , localhost 0 local ultrix , believe local 0 also valid display name \( shared memory connection maybe \? \) strings check \? better way detect \? thank help give jim atkinson wavefront technologies , inc jra wti com , \? company spokesperson \? get real ! life spectator sport !
gerard com \( gerard horan \) subject running x pc home talking host serial line originator gerard vaccine com nntp posting host vaccine com organization , inc lines 41 time back asked software recommendations allow run x pc home sparc office many thanks replies , majority people recommended ncd received yesterday installed sparc pc one hitch unix install consists copying 2 files local bin directory pc side , ordered windows version came slick windows installation problem xinitrc home directory line display `hostname` 0 0 export display clients kicked connected xserver sparc console removing line xinitrc everything worked planned clients connected server `hostname` 1 0 comments performance , connected sparc 2 thru terminal server 9600 baud line pc 486 dx2 ati ultra , 16 mb bitmap stuff sucked basic editing compilation stuff definitely usable usable times first time u typed xclient window noticable delay , put brain damaged windows called scheduler , besides become remote work environment anybody tried non windows version product , sales person said performed , given head windows question \? many thanks help responded gerard
matthew alchemy tn cornell edu \( matthew \) subject 2 headed sun 3 60 possible \( cgfour0 bwtwo0 \) organization alchemy international lines 12 distribution world nntp posting host alchemy tn cornell edu sun 3 60 mono framebuffer \( bwtwo0 \? \) built motherboard system also cgfour \( cgfour0 bwtwo1 \? \) daughterboard using system color monitor color front screen cgfour , mono back screen bwtwo1 , tube picked 1600 x 1280 sun mono monitor , would like make two headed system cgfour0 bwtwo0 care loose back screen color tube bwtwo1 looking xsun man page sure possible anybody done \? matthew
devil loki hellnet org \( gil \) subject cose gui agreed \? lines 31 nntp posting host loki cose announcement specifies motif become common gui mean exactly \? mean cose complient apps motif look feel \? mean cose complient apps use motif toolkit api \? mean \? possible motif api complient toolkit openlook look feel \? olit xview oi interviews api toolkit motif l f \? \( know oi already , considered cose complient \? \) one standard toolkit api l f supported \? using tooltalk fit motif \? attempt start discussion order pull much knowledge questions net feel free e mail followup gil days n't pay devil imp hellnet org go sleep morning devil 10a com
kodak com \( james cox \) subject xterm problem input focus shuffle keywords xterm , tektronics , input focus , shuffle organization eastman kodak company , rochester ny lines 41 nntp posting host news software vax vms vnews 1 41 situation running fortran executable xterm option menu contained xterm runs fortran subroutine tektronics mode xterm displaying graphics typing ret tektronics mode xterm \( future reference tek term \) active makes xterm read future keystrokes shift input focus xterm \( i'm basing statement fact border tek term stays highlighted color tek term stays top xterm i'm describing n't input focus , let know \) xterm brought top clicking mouse button subsequent selections xterm menu item displays graphics border displays updated graphics , move tek term top tek term iconized conserve screen space , stays icon desired behavior one two options 1 whichever windows active always top inactive one 2 whenever tek term , revert icon activated become window higher level xterm think need means specifying xterm tek term highest level way expand xterm tek term commands , would , 'd guess , need fortran command starts xterm tek term information taking place vt 1300 \( dec dumb x windows terminal \) connected vax running vms motif thanks time 've got words wisdom \( give \) , please send email kodak com
larry gator rn com \( larry snyder \) subject dell 2 2 eisa video cards organization , lake mary , florida lines 4 xfree86 support eisa video cards dell 2 2 \? larry snyder larry gator rn com
suresh iss nus sg \( suresh thennarangam research scholar \) subject x device driver bird nntp posting host titan iss nus sg organization institute systems science , nus x newsreader tin 1 1 pl4 lines 19 anyone written device driver use ascension bird xwindows \? \( \) \( \( \) \( \( \) \) suresh thennarangam email suresh iss nus sg \( internet \) research scholar nusvm bitnet institute systems science tel \( 065 \) 772 national university singapore \( 065 \) 778 heng keng terrace telex rs singapore 0511
suresh iss nus sg \( suresh thennarangam research scholar \) subject mix gl x \( xlib , xt , mwm \) nntp posting host titan iss nus sg organization institute systems science , nus x newsreader tin 1 1 pl4 lines 47 pyeatt texaco com \( larry pyeatt \) writes article sparc1 jade com , graham sparc1 ottawa jade com \( jay graham \) writes xmdrawingarea drawing xlib would like take advantage graphics library \( gl \) available ibm rs 6000 \( sgi 's gl believe \) possible mix x gl one application program \? use gl subroutines xmdrawingarea x window opened \? ca n't make gl calls xmdrawingarea widget sure widget already defined gl glxmdraw \( motif \) \( athena \) widget similar xmdrawingarea , except allows use gl calls render window look , , , man pages glxmdraw widget works pretty well opengl improvement vouch gl widget works pretty well using sometime i'm sure though whether use xlib calls draw gl widget n't tried yet read accompanying documentation completely try posting comp sys sgi information better still , find answers sgi manuals little transition guide explains mixed model programming paradigm \( mixing x gl \) pex \( graphigs \? \) functionality gl \? think gl little easier use little powerful , 's opinion mileage may vary well , pex designed extension x seamless , buggy start opinions \( \) \( \( \) \( \( \) \) suresh thennarangam email suresh iss nus sg \( internet \) research scholar nusvm bitnet institute systems science tel \( 065 \) 772 national university singapore \( 065 \) 778 heng keng terrace telex rs singapore 0511
rgooch rp csiro au \( richard gooch \) subject animation xputimage \( \) \? organization csiro division radiophysics australia telescope national facility lines 41 article 1993apr21 dsd es com , pmartz dsd es com \( paul martz \) writes article 1993apr21 154620 16330 infodev cam ac uk , dcr mail ast cam ac uk \( derek c richardson \) writes hi , i'm new group please bear ! two years ago wrote sunview application fast animation raster files sunview becoming rapidly obselete , 've finally decided rewrite everything scratch xview put together quick test , 've found xputimage \( \) considerably slower \( factor 2 average \? \) sunview command pw rop \( \) moves image data memory pixrects canvas sparc ipx seems \( 1 \) x protocol communication slowing things \( 2 \) xputimage inefficient ! using xputimage , source maintained client destination maintained server , thus incur overhead transporting whatever client server communications mechanism using possible maintain source images pixmaps \? maintained server , copying window much cheaper also make sure sending unnecessary , running mode need speed , client run host x server , use shared memory extension sample x server \( mit shm \) xdpyinfo tell server extension certainly available sample mit x server running sunos word warning make sure kernel configured support shared memory another word warning openwindows slower mit server written imaging tool \( using xview gui , way \) yields 10 frames per second 512 512 8 bit images , running sparc ipc \( half cpu grunt ipx \) proved quite sufficient animations regards , richard gooch
victor france hp com \( victor french crc \) subject high order bit character xterm organization internet lines 33 kavitsky hsi com cc xpert expo lcs mit edu anyone know high order bit filtered make sure entire 8bits make final application \? help greatly appreciated 1 need resources xterm true xterm true 2 shell need stty good luck victor x x x x x x victor email victor france hp com xxx hewlett packard france rc x x x 1 , avenue du canada phone 33 1 69 82 60 60 x x x les cedex telnet 770 1141 x x x
thor surt atd ucar edu \( richard e \) subject xquerybestcursor semi broken \? organization national center atmospheric research lines 18 one asked recently used xquerybestcursor see could create given size seemed imply could , server create cursors size investigation showed x servers happily return size size root window , others return fixed limit reasonable size interesting thing server binary acts differently different hardware sun4 cg2 claim cursors root window size ok , sun4 cg6 stop far 've also seen behavior ncd phase x x terminals told also occurs hps actually , ncd even liberal sizes much larger root gladly returned ok xquerybestcursor semi broken behavior correct \? 'd really like see cursor ! richard thor thor atd ucar edu med national center atmospheric research sole box 3000 boulder , co 80307 3000 med 303 497 2057 inn
mahan tgv com \( patrick l mahan \) subject xdm decnet \? organization internet lines 31 xpert expo lcs mit edu , mcl bdm com xdm work decnet \? ultrix machine running tcp ip decnet number x terminals hanging ultrix host also running tcp ip decnet presently using xdm login procedure x terminals using tcp ip since xdm basically x windows client , n't able run xdm decnet protocol tower well \? xdm x window client xdm protocol \( xdmcp \) operates port 177 provide login window x window client using decnet protocol looking source xdm x11r5 , seems bare bones code completely first inclination xdm typical x client making tcp ip specific socket calls case answer would run xdm decnet right \? feedback appreciated thanks look source , seems cannot run decnet shipped x11r5 patrick l mahan tgv window washer mahan tgv com waking person unnecessarily considered lazarus long capital crime first offense , notebooks lazarus long
nmr rug ac subject xtaddeventhandler organization internet lines 29 xpert expo lcs mit edu dear xperts , i'm developing application uses motif slider select image file directory would like display name file corresponding value dragged scale button \( e mb1 pressed \) displays current value scale button actual corresponding image file name , thought using xtaddeventhandler mapping scale value file name xtaddeventhandler \( , , false , , null \) \( \( display , event window , , return \) \) \( , value \) map value file entry directory finally obtain file name open however , move pointer scale widget get callbacks , co null effect mb1 pressed move scale button g wrong \? wrong approach problem \? hints highly appreciated phil
pjaques camborne school mines ac uk \( paul jaques \) subject problem openwin 3 0 organization internet lines 23 xpert expo lcs mit edu anyone help \? problem displaying images greater 32768 bytes decwindows program running vax , displaying sparc ipc running openwindows 3 0 program works fine openwindows 2 0 code segment fails given , program simply crashes xlib error xputimage \( \) call ximage ximage ximage \( mydisplay , \( mydisplay , \) , , , 0 , image , , , 8 , 0 \) xputimage \( mydisplay , mywindow , , ximage , 0 , 0 , , , , \) paul jaques systems engineer , camborne school mines , , , , cornwall e mail pjaques csm ac uk tel \( 0209 \) fax \( 0209 \)
mbell techbook techbook com \( max bell \) subject wanted info dedicated x server kernel sun3 100 series organization public access lines 9 distribution na nntp posting host techbook techbook com summary know find , please send email keywords sun kernel x server anyone information existence location dedicated x server kernel sun3 , please send email trying put neglected sun3s good use n't enough memory sunos 4 1 1 thanks advance help max bell used think 'd escape mbell techbook com tyrants , think 'll stay mbell cie uoregon edu make leave instead
pfuetz igd fhg de \( matthias pfuetzner \) subject available memory xserver get actual size \? reply pfuetz igd fhg de \( matthias pfuetzner \) organization zentrum fuer , darmstadt , frg lines 78 hello ! article 1993apr17 thunder mcrcim mcgill edu , mouse mcrcim mcgill edu \( der mouse \) writes article 1965 igd fhg de , pfuetz igd fhg de \( matthias pfuetzner \) writes possibility determine via x protocol calls size free memory available xserver \? even could , answer could date even get \( even grab server , could taken buffering user actions \) try whatever want error indication insufficient server memory available der mouse n't much help ! especially phigs \( pex \) via supplied mit , much trouble together pex terminals n't enough memory ! performing following visual copyfromparent bg pix whitepixel \( display , defaultscreen \( display \) \) backing store event mask exposuremask background pixel bg pix graphic window xcreatewindow \( graphic display , rootwindow \( graphic display , defaultscreen \( graphic display \) \) , 0 , 0 , \( graphic display , defaultscreen \( graphic display \) \) , \( graphic display , defaultscreen \( graphic display \) \) , \( unsigned int \) 0 , 8 , inputoutput , visual , , \) xmapwindow \( graphic display , graphic window \) sync wait exposure event \( graphic display , false \) \( graphic display , graphic window , exposuremask , \) conn display graphic display conn drawable id graphic window xinfo display graphic display xinfo flags monitor 0 false monitor running ! xinfo flags force client ss 0 false ! \( null , 0 , info flags mon info flags client ss info display , xinfo \) ws \( 1 , \( \) \( conn \) , phigs ws type x drawable \) get core dumps ws call ! \( , etc ! simply core dump ! \) need way getting info available memory xserver ! thanks ! , matthias matthias pfuetzner work 49 6151 155 150 home 49 6151 6100 darmstadt , frg , 7 73 pfuetzner igd fhg de , pfuetzner uucp keith packard said r5 different r4 's changed release number \)
schietke uni bonn de \( juergen schietke \) subject din fonts organization research institute discrete mathematics , bonn distribution de lines 25 hello everybody , hope insert right options , question distributed germany , question less country question anybody tell \( course \) ftp site archie \( whatever \) din fonts x available looking fonts holding specification din 16 din din v thanks advance juergen schietke research insitute discrete mathematics university bonn 2 5300 bonn 1 \( germany \) tel 49 e mail schietke uni bonn de
dave einstein andi org \( david \) subject imake \( x11r4 \) cpp problems aix keywords imake x11r4 aix nntp posting host einstein andi org organization association nextstep developers international lines 28 trying build use imake \( x11r4 \) ibm rs 6000 running aix v3 2 following 2 problems \( 1 \) many imakefile 's like makefile start lines pass makefile comments thru c preprocessor makefile c used treat appearing start line thus c preprocessor treat hash symbol start directive however ibm cpp strips comment treats hash symbol start directive cpp fails determines known directive temporarily hacked imake handle situation would like come better fix \( 2 \) several imakefiles use parameter macro particular use macro need value parameter aix cpp gives warnings situations continues work ok familiar problems solutions , would appreciate information solutions \( perhaps , solved later version imake reviewed \) also , know cpp 's behave similarly \? since easy access news , response billy po gis prc com' would appreciated
snail lsl co uk subject motif x windows nt organization laser scan ltd , cambridge lines 16 article 1993apr7 topgun , topgun \( steven mikes \) writes another company , congruent corporation new york city , also ported xlib xt motif 1 1 ms windows nt , provides full client development x applications nt environment could someone please send postal email address congruent corporation \( competitors may \) thank snail lsl co uk washing one 's hands conflict powerful powerless means side powerful , neutral quote freire poster
rgasch nl oracle com \( robert gasch \) subject program argument geometry organization oracle europe lines 7 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 question regarding processing program arguments geometry option since standard x option , i'm wondering wether parse manually whether predefined function \? thanks info
alf uib \( kurt george \) subject drawing lines \( inverse xor \) organization university bergen , norway lines 36 article 1993apr19 news media mit edu , dyoung media mit edu \( david young \) writes xsetfunction \( mydisplay , gc , gxxor \) xsetforeground \( mydisplay , gc , drawindex \) draw xdrawline \( mydisplay , xtwindow \( \) , gc , x1 , y1 , x2 , y2 \) xflush \( mydisplay \) i'm done , return things normal xsetfunction \( mydisplay , gc , gxcopy \) 'd like happen lines draw inverse whatever i'm drawing instead happens get white lines lines white background nothing shows lines black area nothing shows ! 's strange gxxor function seems right since rubber banding box , erases redraws correctly \( ie disturbing underlying image \) suggestions i'm wrong \? david try change gxxor programs run ncd terminals \( sun terminals change back gxxor \) kurt
nmsu edu \( mark \) subject crl archive change announcement organization computing research lab lines 46 distribution world nntp posting host nmsu edu x md4 signature multi archives computing research labs , new mexico state university moving new ftp address soon archives put control consortium lexical research new ftp address clr nmsu edu \( current ip address 128 123 1 12 may change , use clr nmsu edu whenever possible \) please note difference ftp sites crl nmsu edu clr nmsu edu crl nmsu edu site ftp site items related consortium lexical research arabic , chinese , french , italian , indian , japanese , korean , tibetan , vietnamese archives moved announce new locations relevant directories archives moved please patient discover directories missing ftp either crl nmsu edu clr nmsu edu take days move everything familiar multi archives , slowly collecting various software , fonts , text different languages past 2 years software currently unix oriented would also like encourage people continue contribute items archives help improve quality quantity multi tools item contribute , please put clr nmsu edu incoming send note lexical nmsu edu telling contribution questions comments , please send lexical nmsu edu nmsu edu mark computing research lab optional ! new mexico state university attributed richard o'keefe box , las cruces , nm
grape nswses navy mil \( mike grapevine \) subject subscription organization internet lines 7 xpert expo lcs mit edu please subscribe mailing list michael grapevine one days , one days , code pow ! grape nswses navy mil 's gonna happen , bus \( 805 \) 982 wo n't even realize
grape nswses navy mil \( mike grapevine \) subject subscribe organization internet lines 1 expert expo lcs mit edu subscribe grape nswses navy mil
bading cs tu berlin de \( tobias 'doping' bading \) subject forcing window manager accept specific coordinates window organization technical university berlin , germany lines 30 nntp posting host athene cs tu berlin de mime version 1 0 content type text plain charset iso 8859 1 content transfer encoding 8bit reply ethan cs columbia edu 's message mon , 19 apr 1993 21 25 08 gmt try xcreatewindow include x11 h display display window window xsizehints xsizehints \( \) xsizehints flags usposition ussize pposition psize xsizehints x 42 xsizehints 42 xsizehints width 100 xsizehints height 100 \( display , window , xsizehints \) \( xsizehints \) hints tell window manager position size window specified users window manager accept values use xsizehints flags pposition psize , tells window manager values prefered values program , user n't know window manager n't place window like prefer specify position size like greetings berlin , tobias \( bading cs tu berlin de \)
subject automated x testing mark trident datasys swri edu \( mark collier \) organization southwest research institute lines 13 anyone know available terms automated testing x motif applications thinking system could program \( could record events output \) verification test procedures run time regression testing interested product like unix projects separate project using openvms mark collier southwest research institute senior research analyst automation data systems division voice \( 512 \) 522 data systems department fax \( 512 \) 522 software engineering section
thad cup portal com \( thad p floryan \) subject 2 headed sun 3 60 possible \( cgfour0 bwtwo0 \) organization portal system \( tm \) distribution world lines 25 article fitz tc cornell edu matthew alchemy tn cornell edu \( matthew \) writes sun 3 60 mono framebuffer \( bwtwo0 \? \) built motherboard system also cgfour \( cgfour0 bwtwo1 \? \) daughterboard using system color monitor color front screen cgfour , mono back screen bwtwo1 , tube picked 1600 x 1280 sun mono monitor , would like make two headed system cgfour0 bwtwo0 care loose back screen color tube bwtwo1 looking xsun man page sure possible anybody done \? 's consolation , two 2 headed sun 3 60 systems , though color mono monitors rated 1152x900 configuration , situation , except n't know hi res mono monitor function way however , may simply able pull motherboard set hi res jumper \( located jumper array jumpers ram simm selects ethernet connection \) happily way pull motherboard , jumpers left rear \( e g north west \) quadrant motherboard \( left simm sockets \) thad floryan thad btr com , thad cup portal com , thad netcom com
markhof informatik uni dortmund de \( markhof \) subject title xterm organization cs department , dortmund university , germany lines 55 distribution world nntp posting host informatik uni dortmund de keywords xterm article inf tu dresden de , beck irzr17 inf tu dresden de \( andre beck \) writes article 3b1 aeon berlin de , thomas aeon berlin de \( thomas wolfram \) writes hey guys ! work many stations would like name current logname title xterm 's open machine name 's closed words , want host logname appear title opened xterm host xterm closed \? almost window managers \( twm , mwm , olwm \) support escape sequences purpose put following login \( 're using csh tcsh \) , sh modify \( term xterm \) echo 2 logname host g 1 host g endif 1 \) feature window manager xterm 2 \) sequences ansi compatible , \? anyone know compatible sequences \? would think dcs \( device control sequence \) introduced , may csi sequence exists , \? must work dxterm \( vt ansi compatible \) , may work xterms works xterms least problem back original question usually start new xterms selecting proper menu entry desktop menu sample command xterm sl 999 n ls12i title ls12i e rlogin ls12i n title options give text window icon use tcsh \( wonderful extension csh \) , following alias echo n ' 2 host cwd g' special alias tvtwm executed time printing prompt , current host name current directory path title bar xterms unido markhof university dortmund , ls informatik xii p box 500 500 , 4600 dortmund 50 , f r germany phone 49 \( 231 \) 755 , fax 49 \( 231 \) 755 email markhof informatik uni dortmund de
freud nia nih gov \( howard wai chun \) subject need shading program example x organization \( institutes health , bethesda , md \) distribution na lines 9 anyone know shading program based xlib public domain \? need example allocate correct colormaps program appreciate help howard
mccoy gothamcity jsc nasa gov \( daniel mccoy \) subject title xterm reply mccoy gothamcity jsc nasa gov organization net inc lines 52 article fbi news informatik uni dortmund de , markhof informatik uni dortmund de \( markhof \) writes article inf tu dresden de , beck irzr17 inf tu dresden de \( andre beck \) writes article 3b1 aeon berlin de , thomas aeon berlin de \( thomas wolfram \) writes hey guys ! work many stations would like name current logname title xterm 's open machine name 's closed words , want host logname appear title opened xterm host xterm closed \? almost window managers \( twm , mwm , olwm \) support escape sequences purpose put following login \( 're using csh tcsh \) , sh modify \( term xterm \) echo 2 logname host g 1 host g endif 1 \) feature window manager xterm 2 \) sequences ansi compatible , \? anyone know compatible sequences \? would think dcs \( device control sequence \) introduced , may csi sequence exists , \? must work dxterm \( vt ansi compatible \) , may work xterms works xterms least problem back original question usually start new xterms selecting proper menu entry desktop menu sample command xterm sl 999 n ls12i title ls12i e rlogin ls12i n title options give text window icon use tcsh \( wonderful extension csh \) , following alias echo n ' 2 host cwd g' special alias tvtwm executed time printing prompt , current host name current directory path title bar xterms gotten answer yet \? using variables , would xterm host logname n host daniel j mccoy space net , inc nasa mail code pt4 tel 713 483 nasa johnson space center fax 713 244 houston , texas 77058 future mccoy gothamcity jsc nasa gov
yak com \( bill \) subject function key text string translation organization boeing computer services , seattle lines 17 want press function key text string appear xmtext widget put xmtext translations augment n key f1 insert string \( hello \) resource file , translation n't happen put xmtext translations key f1 insert string \( hello \) file , get text string hello f1 pressed , keys work , makes sense since default translation mode replace syntax problem , something deeper \? bill \( yak boeing com \)
egret \( john martin \) subject animation xputimage \( \) \? nntp posting host ess harris com reply egret organization sun microsystems , inc lines 39 hi , i'm new group please bear ! two years ago wrote sunview application fast animation raster files sunview becoming rapidly obselete , 've finally decided rewrite everything scratch xview put together quick test , 've found xputimage \( \) considerably slower \( factor 2 average \? \) sunview command pw rop \( \) moves image data memory pixrects canvas sparc ipx seems \( 1 \) x protocol communication slowing things \( 2 \) xputimage inefficient ! question , fastest way x11r5 dump 8 plane image data window \? take advantage fact client running machine server \? stuck xputimage \( \) \( case might well give \) \? help appreciated thanks ! derek article 16330 infodev cam ac uk , dcr mail ast cam ac uk \( derek c richardson \) writes derek c richardson tel \( 0223 \) 337548 x 37501 institute astronomy fax \( 0223 \) 337523 cambridge , u k cb3 0ha e mail dcr mail ast cam ac uk animation frequently done copying client resident ximages server resident pixmap \( \) using xputimage done , original ximages deleted animation loop performed using xcopyarea pixmaps windows drawable hope helpfull john
davewood bruno cs colorado edu \( david rex wood \) subject calling library creates widgets \( multiple times \) nntp posting host bruno cs colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 91 days ago posted question trying call function set x app multiple times pointed xtappinitialize \( \) never called helped however , still problems new little test program closely models real program actual program , writing library , callable program means first time lib function called , must initialize things , , use old stuff \( still around static variables \) demo , main \( \) represents main program calling library doit \( \) represents interface library function include x11 xlib h include xm xm h include xm h include stdio h include stdlib h void bla \( xtappcontext app , widget top \) widget top real prog , member vars xtappcontext app class int junk 0 display dis \( , null , null , null , null , 0 , junk , null \) widget box xtvacreatemanagedwidget \( , , , , 50 , , 50 , null \) xtrealizewidget \( \) \( int 0 25 \) real prog returns exit button clicked xevent event \( , event \) \( event \) xtdestroywidget \( box \) \( dis \) called void \( xtappcontext app , widget top \) int junk 0 \( top \) xtappinitialize \( app , test , null , 0 , junk , null , null , null , 0 \) doit library function callable outside void doit \( \) static xtappcontext app use every time called static widget top static int setup 0 \( ! setup \) \( app , top \) setup 1 bla \( app , top \) main program links library main \( \) \( int 0 20 \) doit \( \) printf \( sleeping n \) widget still screen point sleep \( 5 \) problem widget go away new one created \( still screen sleep main prog , despite xtdestroywidget call \) anyone see something i'm missing \? thanks much \( please respond via email \) david rex wood davewood cs colorado edu university colorado boulder
sdennis osf org subject repost accelerators translations apparently motif talk osf org originator root keywords accelerator , case lines 36 reply sdennis osf org organization applicon , inc ann arbor , mi \( usa \) return path sdennis ann arbor applicon slb com lines 36 posted ago n't recieve one reply , another bug report subject anybody help \? ensure accelerators work independent case \? want ctrl ctrl accelerators one menu entry ora vol 6 , section accelerators says information specify translation tables see vol 4 , know put xmnaccelerator resource go vol 4 says , likewise , modifier specified , nothing prohibit modifiers present well example , translation shift key q quit \( \) take effect even ctrl key held time shift key \( q key \) implies setting xmnaccelerator ctrl key want , n't , n't work user presses control key , shift key , key possible supply 1 accelerator menu entry \? keep mind answering question using motif ca n't use \( \) using motif 1 1 3 decstation 5000 also tried hp using motif 1 1 3 1 2 steve dennis internet sdennis ann arbor applicon slb com software engineer applicon inc ann arbor , michigan hail ! ! !
webster ucssun1 sdsu edu \( p \) subject ftp unix dos unix organization internet lines 13 xpert expo lcs mit edu i'm new found files \( public \) look , ftp'ed system access used kermit transmit via modem host computer , pc based file system access internet modem access university mainframe pc file server , pull files disk , pull disk sgi indigo \( sgi networked yet \) try uncompress un tar files , either come garbage get error tar process directories invalid i'm wondering transfer unix files \( compressed , binary , ascii \) multiple platforms guess copy disk screwing things help appreciated bob
robert cpuserver acsc com \( robert grant \) subject animation xputimage \( \) \? organization , los angeles lines 11 distribution world reply robert cpuserver acsc com \( robert grant \) nntp posting host cpuserver acsc com hi everyone , anyone know good way adjust fly \( say animation \) prevent current set colours flickering \? thanks , robert robert acsc com
mppa3 syma sussex ac uk \( alan richardson \) subject 2 get \? \? \? organization university sussex lines 30 article 1993apr20 narya gsfc nasa gov dealy narya gsfc nasa gov \( brian dealy csc \) writes anyone know application retrieve name font application given \? would work passed xa font name \? anyone know details \? thanks advance brian brian dealy 301 572 8267 knowing 's dealy kong gsfc nasa gov 's important , 's knowing ! uunet ! dftsrv ! kong ! dealy 's b dylan try char name null unsigned long value \( \( font , xa font , value \) \) name \( dpy , value \) dpy display connection font pointer alan richardson , n't school maths physical sciences , old wise univ sussex , brighton bn1 9qh , england judas priest uk mppa3 uk ac sussex syma elsewhere mppa3 syma sussex ac uk
etxmesa eos ericsson se \( michael salmon \) subject title xterm keywords xterm nntp posting host eos6c02 ericsson se reply etxmesa eos ericsson se \( michael salmon \) organization ericsson telecom ab lines 21 article fbi news informatik uni dortmund de markhof informatik uni dortmund de \( markhof \) writes alias echo n ' 2 host cwd g' special alias tvtwm presume meant say tcsh michael salmon include standard disclaimer include witty saying include fancy pseudo graphics ericsson telecom ab stockholm
rlm helen surfcty com \( robert l mcmillin \) subject find appcontext \? organization surf city software project reply masc0442 ucsnews sdsu edu 's message 19 apr 1993 23 00 15 gmt lines 14 19 apr 1993 23 00 15 gmt , masc0442 ucsnews sdsu edu \( todd greene \) said xt call give application context \? fixing x motif program , trying use xtappaddtimeout , whose first argument app context call use give value \? believe 's something like robert l mcmillin surf city software rlm helen surfcty com dude ! include std disclaimer h
rlm helen surfcty com \( robert l mcmillin \) subject mix gl x \( xlib , xt , mwm \) organization surf city software project reply graham sparc1 ottawa jade com 's message 19 apr 1993 16 59 12 0400 lines 21 19 apr 1993 16 59 12 0400 , graham sparc1 ottawa jade com \( jay graham \) said developing x \( xt , xm \) application include graphics window sort moving symbols among things pure x application could implemented motif widgets , one would xmdrawingarea drawing xlib would like take advantage graphics library \( gl \) available ibm rs 6000 \( sgi 's gl believe \) possible mix x gl one application program \? use gl subroutines xmdrawingarea x window opened \? sgi 's distribution indigo line \( others well , possibly \) , include source code gl widget fits top motif , one 's xt based well may wish ask ibm whether support robert l mcmillin surf city software rlm helen surfcty com dude ! include std disclaimer h
mccoy gothamcity jsc nasa gov \( daniel mccoy \) subject r4 version reply mccoy gothamcity jsc nasa gov organization net inc lines 14 use x11r5 one exist x11r4 \? \? \? tried contact one developers , eric , ess hal com longer forwarding email address archie help either help would appreciated thanks , daniel j mccoy space net , inc nasa mail code pt4 tel 713 483 nasa johnson space center fax 713 244 houston , texas 77058 future mccoy gothamcity jsc nasa gov
umiacs umd edu \( stephen kelley \) subject expose configure event handling \( r4 vs r5 \) organization umiacs , university maryland , college park , md 20742 lines 29 two questions \( well probably \) expose configure events handled appl uses 1 window draw since give user capability scaling zooming well allowing window resized , made translation table expose configure events expose event calls redraw method configure event calls rescale method rescale method invokes fake expose event \( actually calls redraw w appropriate expose struct \) draw data quest 1 appl compiled linked w r4 \( running either r4 r5 env \) get multiple \( 4 \) redraws window gets uncovered size changed assume i'm getting events right \? suggestions handle trap events better way \? quest 2 appl compiled linked w r5 get expose events whatsoever events translation tables act differently r5 \? thanks advance steve steve kelley cs umiacs captain , protest ! internet umiacs umd edu merry man ! worf
brians atlastele com \( brian sheets \) subject looking filemanager x11r5 organization atlas telecom inc disclaimer views expressed necessarily represent employer lines 9 anyone file manager runs unix x11r5 \? \? brians brian sheets truck \? ! truck \? support engineer `o o' atlas telecom inc \( \) raiders lost ark brians atlastele com u
rps arbortext com \( ralph seguin \) subject finding state state keys \( eg , capslock numlock \) organization internet lines 19 xpert expo lcs mit edu hi 've looked faq reilly books unable find \( easy \) means finding state state keys capslock numlock certainly track events inside window set boolean , capslock pressed another window \? looked xgrabkey \( \) decided definitely wanted could find convenience function tell information question means determining state capslock numlock \? even pointed question easy means making x keyboard act like pc keyboard \? ie , capslock active , user presses shift , 'd like get 'a' instead 'a' input greatly appreciated please respond via email repost summary findings thanks , ralph
queloz bernina ethz ch \( ronald queloz \) subject store post events organization swiss federal institute technology \( eth \) , zurich , ch lines 31 store reply mouse keyboard events produce regression tests automatic demo 's would like store mouse keyboard events produced user possible filter mouse keyboard events server 's queue store file sequence events , stored file , given server 's queue user working 1 exists tool capable save reply mouse keyboard events \( \) \? 2 one catch events store \? case server 's queue x terminal \( hp \) catch events coming given server possible , catch events given certain client \? 3 one send stored sequence events simulate user \? central clients machine manages incoming events given server reach \? thanks advance ron
dcr mail ast cam ac uk \( derek c richardson \) subject animation xputimage \( \) \? nntp posting host ioas09 ast cam ac uk reply dcr mail ast cam ac uk organization institute astronomy , cambridge lines 27 hi , i'm new group please bear ! two years ago wrote sunview application fast animation raster files sunview becoming rapidly obselete , 've finally decided rewrite everything scratch xview put together quick test , 've found xputimage \( \) considerably slower \( factor 2 average \? \) sunview command pw rop \( \) moves image data memory pixrects canvas sparc ipx seems \( 1 \) x protocol communication slowing things \( 2 \) xputimage inefficient ! question , fastest way x11r5 dump 8 plane image data window \? take advantage fact client running machine server \? stuck xputimage \( \) \( case might well give \) \? help appreciated thanks ! derek derek c richardson tel \( 0223 \) 337548 x 37501 institute astronomy fax \( 0223 \) 337523 cambridge , u k cb3 0ha e mail dcr mail ast cam ac uk
drand spinner osf org \( douglas rand \) subject drawing lines \( inverse xor \) reply alf uib 's message wed , 21 apr 93 11 19 19 gmt organization open software foundation lines 47 article 1993apr21 alf uib alf uib \( kurt george \) writes article 1993apr19 news media mit edu , dyoung media mit edu \( david young \) writes xsetfunction \( mydisplay , gc , gxxor \) xsetforeground \( mydisplay , gc , drawindex \) draw xdrawline \( mydisplay , xtwindow \( \) , gc , x1 , y1 , x2 , y2 \) xflush \( mydisplay \) i'm done , return things normal xsetfunction \( mydisplay , gc , gxcopy \) 'd like happen lines draw inverse whatever i'm drawing instead happens get white lines lines white background nothing shows lines black area nothing shows ! 's strange gxxor function seems right since rubber banding box , erases redraws correctly \( ie disturbing underlying image \) suggestions i'm wrong \? david try change gxxor programs run ncd terminals \( sun terminals change back gxxor \) small section o'reilly xlib books describes right thing key set plane mask gc foreground background pixel values douglas rand drand osf org osf motif dev snail 11 cambridge center , cambridge , 02142 disclaimer n't know osf agrees let 's vote amateur radio kc1kj
neuralog neosoft com \( neuralog \) subject compiling sun4 411 organization neosoft communications services \( 713 \) 684 5900 lines 27 article 1993apr20 907 aio jsc nasa gov mccoy gothamcity jsc nasa gov writes article andrew cmu edu , wilson andrew cmu edu \( \) writes piece x code compiles fine pmax , pmax mach , well sun4 mach , whenever compiles sun4 411 , gives undefined ld errors sin cos pow floor get wmshellwidgetclass get applicationshellwidgetclass following libraries linked lxaw lxmu lxt lxext lx11 makefile generated imake template anyone give pointers i'm missing compile sun4 411 \? well , first 2 easy need math library try adding lm lx11 n't know 's whole problem 's start think try linking usr lib libxmu instead lxmu least solved problem !
neuralog neosoft com \( neuralog \) subject authorization ow 3 0 organization neosoft communications services \( 713 \) 684 5900 lines 29 hello , first net letter , forgive mistakes ! plagued problems \( lack info \) authorization open windows 3 0 long would like help please ! generally use strait mit x , n't use ow much , share x software others bad news problem friend logs trys run program runs fine machine , however , friend gets client authorized connect server \( something close \) ow started option well , surely required general ! also , xhost work , becoming root work , etc help greatly appreciated ! thanx send replies neuralog neosoft com news group
mahan tgv com \( patrick l mahan \) subject program argument geometry organization internet lines 31 xpert expo lcs mit edu , rgasch nl oracle com question regarding processing program arguments geometry option since standard x option , i'm wondering wether parse manually whether predefined function \? using intrinsics , working xlib level , parse use following bit code static options geometry , geometry , , \( \) null define number \( x \) \( sizeof \( x \) sizeof \( x 0 \) \) \( db , options , number \( options \) , , argc , argv \) use \( \) retrieve value parse using \( \) probably quicker parse argv , however , much prefer using x resource management routines patrick l mahan tgv window washer mahan tgv com waking person unnecessarily considered lazarus long capital crime first offense , notebooks lazarus long
csgrad cs vt edu \( ramakrishnan \) subject mwm title drag crashes x server \( sigpipe \) organization vpi su computer science department , blacksburg , va lines 33 article 1993apr20 ncar ucar edu boote scd ucar edu \( jeff w boote \) writes article creatures cs vt edu , csgrad cs vt edu \( ramakrishnan \) writes environment mach arch sparc sun4 \( ipx \) os sunos 4 1 3 x11 x11r5 \( patchlevel 22 \) motif 1 2 2 bring x server using usr bin x11 xsun following sequence actions crashes x server \( sigpipe , errno 32 , 'xinit' reports x server lost \) problem well cg6 graphics card comes ipx fixed problem apply uu part patch 7 patch 1 also used file perhaps n't apply one came patch 7 jeff jeff w boote boote ncar ucar edu scientific computing division nothing good bad national center atmospheric research thinking makes boulder hamlet thanx , jeff 're imported new sun gx emulator came patch 7 problem since disappeared thanx der \( \) mouse help ramakrishnan , cs dept , hall ,
pmartz dsd es com \( paul martz \) subject animation xputimage \( \) \? nntp posting host bambam reply pmartz dsd es com \( paul martz \) organization evans sutherland computer corp , salt lake city , ut lines 28 article 1993apr21 154620 16330 infodev cam ac uk , dcr mail ast cam ac uk \( derek c richardson \) writes hi , i'm new group please bear ! two years ago wrote sunview application fast animation raster files sunview becoming rapidly obselete , 've finally decided rewrite everything scratch xview put together quick test , 've found xputimage \( \) considerably slower \( factor 2 average \? \) sunview command pw rop \( \) moves image data memory pixrects canvas sparc ipx seems \( 1 \) x protocol communication slowing things \( 2 \) xputimage inefficient ! using xputimage , source maintained client destination maintained server , thus incur overhead transporting whatever client server communications mechanism using possible maintain source images pixmaps \? maintained server , copying window much cheaper also make sure sending unnecessary , running mode paul pmartz dsd es com evans sutherland
rank uni passau de \( christian rank \) subject xsun running sparcclassic organization fuer universitaet passau lines 15 distribution world nntp posting host jupiter uni passau de 've installed x11r5 patches solaris 2 1 sparcstation lx sparcclassic pool lx , x11r5 runs fine , classics , giving command startx , xsun prints following messages warning cg3 mmap ca n't map dummy space ! mapping device address exits anybody know fix problem \? thanks advance christian rank fuer universitaet passau 29 passau
gerard dps co uk \( gerard o'driscoll \) subject mix gl x \( xlib , xt , mwm \) organization internet lines 12 xpert expo lcs mit edu pyeatt texaco com writes widget already defined gl glxmdraw \( motif \) \( athena \) widget similar xmdrawingarea , except allows use gl calls render window look , , , man pages get hold widgets \? gerard o'driscoll \( gerard odriscoll dps co uk \) du pont pixel systems ltd
baldwa adobe com \( sanjay baldwa \) subject x support pressure sensitive tablet reply baldwa adobe com organization adobe systems , mountain view , ca , usa distribution comp lines 7 vendors supporting pressure sensitive tablet pen x \? appreciate pointers thanks , sanjay baldwa adobe com ! decwrl ! adobe ! baldwa
bill west msi com \( bill \) subject automated x testing reply bill msi com organization molecular simulations inc x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 27 mark collier \( mark trident datasys swri edu \) wrote anyone know available terms automated testing x motif applications thinking system could program \( could record events output \) verification test procedures run time regression testing interested product like unix projects separate project using openvms question like answered faq , sharing x windows one answers xtrap , record playback x find export lcs mit edu contrib x11r5 tar z anyone know program n't require x extension \? x servers work vendor extensions ca n't modify , xtrap n't help x conferencing software mit , n't know easy would modify record playback help would appreciated bill molecular simulations inc tel \( 408 \) 522 bill msi com sunnyvale , ca 94086 3522 fax \( 408 \) 732 ftp mail mail ftpmail decwrl dec com offers ftp via email subject cr help cr quit
mahan tgv com \( patrick l mahan \) subject need shading program example x organization internet lines 20 xpert expo lcs mit edu , freud nia nih gov anyone know shading program based xlib public domain \? need example allocate correct colormaps program appreciate help n't know might help , 've started playing program called povray \( persistance vision raytracer \) also displays output via x windows fairly good job allocating colormap psuedo color 8 plane display got source site person retrieved david buck \( ccs carleton ca \) patrick l mahan tgv window washer mahan tgv com waking person unnecessarily considered lazarus long capital crime first offense , notebooks lazarus long
toml boulder parcplace com \( tom lastrange \) subject forcing window manager accept specific coordinates window organization parcplace boulder lines 23 article cs columbia edu ethan cs columbia edu \( ethan solomita \) writes hi i'm trying figure make window manager place window create window command tells , regardless may think right \( application reason know better \) n't want set override redirect want embellishments window manager gives , want wm accept choice location may think right may exactly user wants assuming application reason know better , imho , anti social start application geometry option going ignore well \? 's really way force window manager much anything 's managing window ask , hint , 's guarantee 're going get want tom lastrange toml boulder parcplace com
toml blade boulder parcplace com \( tom lastrange \) subject forcing window manager accept specific coordinates window reply toml boulder parcplace com organization parcplace boulder lines 40 article bading athene cs tu berlin de , bading cs tu berlin de \( tobias 'doping' bading \) writes try xcreatewindow include x11 h display display window window xsizehints xsizehints \( \) xsizehints flags usposition ussize pposition psize xsizehints x 42 xsizehints 42 xsizehints width 100 xsizehints height 100 \( display , window , xsizehints \) \( xsizehints \) hints tell window manager position size window specified users window manager accept values use xsizehints flags pposition psize , tells window manager values prefered values program , user n't know window manager n't place window like prefer specify position size like right please makes brain hurt usposition ussize set user specified position size say tom , n't blow gasket , 's harm \? window managers different things \( besides positioning window \) see usposition rather pposition tom lastrange toml boulder parcplace com
dla se05 wg2 waii com \( doug acker \) subject build x11r5 xlc 1 2 1 \( aix 3 2 3e \) organization western geophysical exploration products lines 36 nntp posting host se05 wg2 waii com reply dla se05 wg2 waii com 's message 21 apr 1993 03 49 16 gmt 21 apr 1993 03 49 16 gmt , dla se05 wg2 waii com \( doug acker \) said doug nntp posting host se05 wg2 waii com big problem trying build mit x11r5 xlc 1 2 1 \( one bundled aix 3 2 3e \) almost linker working properly shared libraries 've built x11r5 problem headaches example , xset client complains libxmu doesnt bunch xt routines missing \( something like \) build libxmu link libxt really going following , specific error get could load program xset symbol xtvasetvalues lib xmu libxmu undefined symbol xtname lib xmu libxmu undefined symbol xtwindowofobject lib xmu libxmu undefined symbol lib xmu libxmu undefined symbol lib xmu libxmu undefined symbol xtappsettypeconverter lib xmu libxmu undefined symbol lib xmu libxmu undefined symbol xtresolvepathname lib xmu libxmu undefined symbol lib xmu libxmu undefined symbol lib xmu libxmu undefined symbol lib xmu libxmu undefined could load library libxmu error exec format error douglas l acker western geophysical exploration products division western atlas international inc litton dresser company internet acker wg2 waii com voice \( 713 \) 964 6128
tdb uu se \( \) subject compiling sun4 411 organization department scientific computing , uppsala university lines 15 article andrew cmu edu wilson andrew cmu edu writes sin cos pow floor link ' \( math library \) get wmshellwidgetclass get applicationshellwidgetclass bug sun 's shared libraries linking ' assert trick n
dla se05 wg2 waii com \( doug acker \) subject build x11r5 xlc 1 2 1 \( aix 3 2 3e \) organization western geophysical exploration products lines 50 nntp posting host se05 wg2 waii com reply dla se05 wg2 waii com 's message 22 apr 1993 01 02 41 gmt 22 apr 1993 01 02 41 gmt , dla se05 wg2 waii com \( doug acker \) said doug nntp posting host se05 wg2 waii com 21 apr 1993 03 49 16 gmt , dla se05 wg2 waii com \( doug acker \) said doug nntp posting host se05 wg2 waii com doug big problem trying build mit x11r5 xlc 1 2 1 doug \( one bundled aix 3 2 3e \) almost linker doug working properly shared libraries doug 've built x11r5 problem headaches doug example , xset client complains libxmu doesnt bunch doug xt routines missing \( something like \) doug build libxmu link libxt really doug going doug following , specific error get doug could load program xset doug symbol xtvasetvalues lib xmu libxmu undefined doug symbol xtname lib xmu libxmu undefined doug symbol xtwindowofobject lib xmu libxmu undefined doug symbol lib xmu libxmu undefined doug symbol lib xmu libxmu undefined doug symbol xtappsettypeconverter lib xmu libxmu undefined doug symbol lib xmu libxmu undefined doug symbol xtresolvepathname lib xmu libxmu undefined doug symbol lib xmu libxmu undefined doug symbol lib xmu libxmu undefined doug symbol lib xmu libxmu undefined doug could load library libxmu doug error exec format error search revealed similar \( closed use \) douglas l acker western geophysical exploration products division western atlas international inc litton dresser company internet acker wg2 waii com voice \( 713 \) 964 6128
sharma tiger vill edu \( sanjeev sharma \) subject positioning window , openlook keywords windows , openlook organization villanova university lines 20 originator sharma tiger vill edu hi netters , require window appear co \( 0 , 0 \) \( top left corner \) screen \( root window \) could windows guru help go write whole program creates window image displays require image appear top left corner grab recording video , using minivas controller , expects window spot every time thanks advance sincerely , sanjeev sharma office e mail computing science sharma vill edu villanova university \( 215 \) 645 6463
xyzzy hal gnu ai mit edu \( daniel \) subject tape selections article hal organization dis lines 11 nntp posting host hal ai mit edu idea i'm sure done i'm remembering , thought dialog boxes whatever windowing systems , way set things checked unchecked filled certain way idea tape know , like putting piece tape light switch \? idea , like , use daniel xyzzy gnu ai mit edu forever , forever , coda vaxc hofstra edu
jlong berkeley edu \( john long \) subject xman source reply jlong berkeley edu \( john long \) organization bnr lines 8 get xman source \? would like get binaries xman hp 9000 700 , would settle source john f long , bnr , inc god , pops jlong bnr ca next \? include standard disclaimer h art
slate mines colorado edu \( gallagher andrea j \) subject detecting read \? reply ngorelic speclab cr usgs gov organization colorado school mines lines 27 , friend okay , got great response last question \( thanks , everyone \) , lets try tell colorcell read \? want use read cells already colormap start running cells , using arbitrary nearest color matching scheme get cells come closest requested color determine cell read , assume request xalloccolor \( \) exact color specifications application n't later get freed someone else allocated read write another application far , way 've figured write error handler go ahead request cells colors , colormap full error cell non life would much easier could detect read stuff directly ideas \? noel \( ngorelic speclab cr usgs gov \)
earle isolar tujunga ca us \( greg earle \) subject colormaps window managers organization personal usenet site , tujunga , ca usa lines 27 distribution world nntp posting host isolar tujunga ca us keywords twm tvtwm article 1993apr15 thunder mcrcim mcgill edu mouse thunder mcrcim mcgill edu \( der mouse \) writes article 1 cs cmu edu , das cs cmu edu \( david simon \) writes one please explain following piece code causes twm \( tvtwm \) dump core particular , interested knowing whether behavior caused bug reasoning , bug twm anything client causes twm dump core , 's bug twm window managers never ever crash would true mit would fix ! twm \( \) crash bug , could say 've \( almost \) unable crash either twm tvtwm , would remarkable feat desirable boot mean , bug reported , oh , zillion times servers , hand \( want crash openwindows 3 0 xnews server \? xrm xbiff ' \) greg earle phone \( 818 \) 353 8695 fax \( 818 \) 353 1877 internet earle isolar tujunga ca us uucp isolar ! earle elroy jpl nasa gov k ! elroy ! isolar ! earle
earle isolar tujunga ca us \( greg earle \) subject tvtwm xsetroot , x11r5 sparcstation 10 keyboard organization personal usenet site , tujunga , ca usa lines 89 distribution world nntp posting host isolar tujunga ca us article cv4 genesis psu edu barr pop psu edu \( david barr \) writes article 101 384 oak shu ac uk haywood sheffield hallam ac uk writes environment sun sparc 10 , sunos 4 1 3 x11r5 patch level 23 x process started xdm okay , 's good i'm typing exactly setup \( us unix layout keyboard \) install sunkbd patch , though ii \) open xterm sparc 10 , keys recognised keys keyboard sending correct characters install sunkbd patch \? 's contrib directory export keys keyboard send events properly , except following end , , 6 key cluster n't recognized even compose key works \( though ca n't seem get composed characters xterm get passed \) anyone fix last two \? n't know anything sunkbd patch , use following xmodmap file \( run xinitrc via xmodmap home xmodmap , course \) type 5 unix keyboard \( 's bit brute force , however \) ! ! sun type 5 unix keyboard ! ! arrow keys properly ! ! default , arrow keys keypad \( shift 8 , shift 4 left , ! shift 6 right , shift 2 \) work , arrow keys ! assigned keysym ! keycode 27 keycode 31 left keycode 34 keycode 35 right ! ! want back space key emit delete keysym ! keycode 50 delete ! ! random mappings n't default ! ! print screen key keycode 29 req print ! break pause key keycode 28 break pause ! alt graph key keycode 20 mode switch ! key keycode 103 prior ! key keycode 130 next ! insert key keycode 51 insert ! ! home , end keys \? \? \? ! ! open look functions ! ! stop key \( keysym cancel \) keycode 8 ! key \( \) keycode 10 ! props key keycode 32 ! undo key \( undo \) keycode 33 ! front key keycode 56 ! copy key keycode 58 ! open key keycode 79 ! paste key keycode 80 ! find key \( find \) keycode 102 ! cut key keycode 104 greg earle phone \( 818 \) 353 8695 fax \( 818 \) 353 1877 internet earle isolar tujunga ca us uucp isolar ! earle elroy jpl nasa gov k ! elroy ! isolar ! earle
grace cs orst edu \( \) subject question regarding graphics article flop distribution world organization computer science department , oregon state university lines 32 nntp posting host grace cs orst edu hello wonder one suggest answer following question total x novice would appreciate suggestions may trying create simple drawing tool let 's say two rectangles canvas \( see \) one intersecting , would like delete one rectangles way create another gc wherein use gxxor logical function simply redraw rectangle using newly created graphics context thus deleting apparent purposes problem approach points intersection pixel locations belonging rectangle also become white , something avoided way avoid problem without redraw rectangle \? also would like generate expose event affected area degrades performance badly thank
rainer sun3 eeam elin co \( rainer hochreiter \) subject x terminal question organization elin energeanwendung ges b h lines 14 nntp posting host sun3 eeam elin co x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 simple question xperts possible use several x terminals one mouse one keyboard \? suggestions \? thanks , rainer rainer hochreiter telephone 43 \( 1 \) 89100 3961 elin energieanwendung gesmbh telefax 43 \( 1 \) 89100 3387 penzingerstr 76 1141 wien , austria europe e mail rainer elin co
ncsa uiuc edu \( marc \) subject ncsa mosaic x 1 0 available x md4 signature organization nat'l center supercomputing applications lines 79 version 1 0 ncsa mosaic x window system , networked information systems world wide web browser , hereby released file ftp ncsa uiuc edu mosaic xmosaic source xmosaic 1 0 tar z xmosaic binaries xmosaic sun z xmosaic binaries xmosaic sgi z xmosaic binaries xmosaic ibm z xmosaic binaries xmosaic dec z xmosaic binaries xmosaic alpha z xmosaic diffs xmosaic 0 13 1 0 diffs z ncsa mosaic provides consistent easy use hypermedia based interface wide variety networked information sources , including gopher , wais , world wide web , nntp usenet news , , ftp , local filesystems , archie , finger , hyper g , , , telnet , tn3270 , release ncsa mosaic known compile following platforms sgi \( irix 4 0 2 \) ibm \( aix 3 2 \) sun 4 \( sunos 4 1 3 stock x11r4 motif 1 1 , gcc \) dec ultrix dec alpha axp \( osf 1 \) documentation available online changes since 0 13 include added new resource , , sun 's \( \) called try find names \( command line flag \) explicitly pop dialog boxes document view window closed , window managers dull better visited anchor color non sgi 's added hqx uu list file extensions handled like tar files added button open box , allow convenient cut n paste entries url 's new resource set false , new document view windows automatically positioned program \( 's still window manager 're placed \) command line flags iconic desired effect \( new resource also used \) gif reading code little obscure infinite loop triggered extra space img tag fixed eliminated error message image ca n't read \( ncsa bitmap indication enough something 's right authors , readers ca n't anything bad images case \) obscure parsing bug \( constructs like address text address \) fixed fixed mysterious stupid hits suns fixed stupid url 's like ' cbl leeds ac uk ' fixed handling rlogin url 's new support solaris \( courtesy dana thumper bellcore com \) better support hp ux 8 x 9 x \( courtesy johns wal hp com \) better support next \( courtesy scott shrug ac uk \) miscellaneous portability fixes \( courtesy bingle cs purdue edu \) miscellaneous bug fixes comments , questions , bug reports sent mosaic x ncsa uiuc edu thanks advance feedback provide cheers , marc marc software development group national center supercomputing applications ncsa uiuc edu
gowen jade tufts edu \( g lee owen \) subject wanted info dedicated x server kernel sun3 100 series reply mbell techbook techbook com 's message 20 apr 1993 22 57 39 0700 lines 30 organization tufts university medford , distribution na anyone information existence location dedicated x server kernel sun3 , please send email trying put neglected sun3s good use n't enough memory sunos 4 1 1 thanks advance help free program called seth robertson \( seth ctr columbia edu \) takes sun 3 boots limited kernel allows run x converted 4 machines semester speedup enormously appreciable find faster ncd black white xterminal playing , bigger screen boot ! matter fact , department bought old sun3s auction convert ! xkernel available anonymous ftp ftp ctr columbia edu 128 59 64 40 xkernel xkernel shar \( xkernel latest version xkernel \) note compiled version available sun 3 50 , compiling work sun 3 quite easy connected xkernel except satisfied installer user 8 \) may able answer questions feel free email greg owen gowen forte cs tufts edu , gowen jade tufts edu systems programmer ta , tufts university computer science dept 230 transfers disclaimed host name boss 's address 230 n't like policy , disconnect !
dcr mail ast cam ac uk \( derek c richardson \) subject animation organization internet lines 81 xpert expo lcs mit edu think tried send message animation query posted comp windows x 've appended received remember typed , 'd appreciate another attempt ! derek derek c richardson tel \( 0223 \) 337548 x 37501 institute astronomy fax \( 0223 \) 337523 cambridge , u k cb3 0ha e mail dcr mail ast cam ac uk begin included message aol com ! postmaster thu apr 22 04 47 31 1993 received ast cam ac uk \( uk smail 3 1 25 1 2 \) id ast cam ac uk thu , 22 apr 93 04 47 bst received prod aol net prod aol net smtp \( 1 37 109 4 16 2 \) id wed , 21 apr 93 23 49 16 0400 postmaster aol com x mailer america online mailer dcr mail ast cam ac uk subject returned mail unknown member date wed , 21 apr 93 23 46 36 edt message id aol com status r mail sent could delivered addressed unknown user text sent follows hi , i'm new group please bear ! two years ago wrote sunview application fast animation raster files sunview becoming rapidly obselete , 've finally decided rewrite everything scratch xview put together quick test , 've found xputimage \( \) considerably slower \( factor 2 average \? \) sunview command pw rop \( \) moves image data memory pixrects canvas sparc ipx seems \( 1 \) x protocol communication slowing things \( 2 \) xputimage inefficient ! question , fastest way x11r5 dump 8 plane image data window \? take advantage fact client running machine server \? stuck xputimage \( \) \( case might well give \) \? help appreciated thanks ! derek derek c richardson tel \( 0223 \) 337548 x 37501 institute astronomy fax \( 0223 \) 337523 cambridge , u k cb3 0ha e mail dcr mail ast cam ac uk headers ! expo lcs mit edu ! xpert mailer wed apr 21 23 46 29 1993 remote received aol com id wed , 21 apr 93 23 39 41 edt received expo lcs mit edu psi com \( 5 4 0 psi \) via smtp id wed , 21 apr 93 19 44 00 0400 received expo lcs mit edu wed , 21 apr 93 13 58 06 0400 received enterpoop mit edu expo lcs mit edu wed , 21 apr 93 13 58 05 0400 received enterpoop mit edu \( 5 57 4 7 \) id wed , 21 apr 93 13 57 34 0400 received usenet enterpoop xpert expo lcs mit edu \( xpert expo lcs mit edu \) contact usenet enterpoop questions xpert expo lcs mit edu date wed , 21 apr 1993 15 46 20 gmt dcr mail ast cam ac uk \( derek c richardson \) message id 1993apr21 154620 16330 infodev cam ac uk organization institute astronomy , cambridge reply dcr mail ast cam ac uk subject animation xputimage \( \) \? end included message
dcr mail ast cam ac uk \( derek c richardson \) subject animation xputimage \( \) \? nntp posting host ioas09 ast cam ac uk reply dcr mail ast cam ac uk organization institute astronomy , cambridge lines 50 article mlb semi harris com , egret \( john martin \) writes animation frequently done copying client resident ximages server resident pixmap \( \) using xputimage done , original ximages deleted animation loop performed using xcopyarea pixmaps windows drawable hope helpfull john implemented seems achieve display rates \( 20 frames sec ipx \) get sunview , though 's bit choppy times also , loading data , making ximage , pixmap bit cumbersome , animation slower load sunview better way load data \? rgooch rp csiro au \( richard gooch \) writes need speed , client run host x server , use shared memory extension sample x server \( mit shm \) xdpyinfo tell server extension certainly available sample mit x server running sunos word warning make sure kernel configured support shared memory another word warning openwindows slower mit server written imaging tool \( using xview gui , way \) yields 10 frames per second 512 512 8 bit images , running sparc ipc \( half cpu grunt ipx \) proved quite sufficient animations regards , richard gooch shared memory \( also mentioned delphi beckman uiuc edu , nick \) looks interesting , need someone point documentation method likely give better results server resident pixmaps \? 'd also interested looking xview code mentioned thanks help far get something decent put together , 'll definitely post net derek c richardson tel \( 0223 \) 337548 x 37501 institute astronomy fax \( 0223 \) 337523 cambridge , u k cb3 0ha e mail dcr mail ast cam ac uk
kurt dna lth se \( kurt swanson \) subject determines default x font \? organization lund institute technology , sweden lines 10 i'm running x openwindows 3 normal x programs font specified always show font change , restart windows new default font used next change ca n't seem figure chooses way set \? possibly something xdefaults \? \? \? please reply direct email summarize kurt swanson , dept computer science , universitet kurt swanson dna lth se
wsinfo03 win tue nl \( richard \) subject forcing window manager accept specific coordinates window organization eindhoven university technology , netherlands lines 38 distribution world nntp posting host wsinfo03 win tue nl bading cs tu berlin de \( tobias 'doping' bading \) writes try xcreatewindow xsizehints flags usposition ussize pposition psize \( display , window , xsizehints \) hints tell window manager position size window specified users window manager accept values use xsizehints flags pposition psize , tells window manager values prefered values program , user n't know window manager n't place window like prefer specify position size like sorry , olwm tvtwm n't place title position window position becomes problem want program able save current configuration restore later currently , solution xcreatewindow \( \) \( \) xmapwindow \( \) xflush \( \) xmovewindow \( \) works olwm , less elegant leaves wondering i'm overlooking something obvious richard
rgasch nl oracle com \( robert gasch \) subject overriding default behaviour organization oracle europe lines 23 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 usually start application , first get window outline display click mouse button actually place window screen yet specify geometry option window appears right away , properties specified geometry argument question override intermediary step user specify window position \? 've tried explicitly setting window size position , alter normal program behaviour thanks hints robert ps i'm working plain x robert gasch der mai ist der tag dem die ins oracle engineering und den de , nl auf rgasch nl oracle com
beck irzr17 inf tu dresden de \( andre beck \) subject animation xputimage \( \) \? organization dept computer science , tu dresden , germany lines 37 distribution world reply andre beck irs inf tu dresden de nntp posting host irzr17 inf tu dresden de article 1993apr21 154620 16330 infodev cam ac uk , dcr mail ast cam ac uk \( derek c richardson \) writes two years ago wrote sunview application fast animation raster files sunview becoming rapidly obselete , 've finally decided rewrite everything scratch xview put together quick test , 've found xputimage \( \) considerably slower \( factor 2 average \? \) sunview command pw rop \( \) moves image data memory pixrects canvas sparc ipx seems \( 1 \) x protocol communication slowing things \( 2 \) xputimage inefficient ! question , protocol move whole image process memory server memory , hog conversions xputimage \( \) fast fastest way x11r5 dump 8 plane image data window \? take advantage fact client running machine server \? stuck yes , utilizing mit shm extension , provides xputimage uses shared memory fine fast xputimage \( \) \( case might well give \) \? still xputimage frames onto pixmaps \( thus moving server memory \) replay fastest using xcopyarea \( \) aware , major server memory bummer ! brain inside andre' beck \( abpsoft \) mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de
hp uwsuper edu \( mr patrick l \) subject dxf format display organization university wisconsin superior lines 17 nntp posting host 137 81 1 3 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl7 hi , looking x app display dxf files ascii text files normally associated autocad large 9 meg file state wisconsin would like views cut smaller chunks also would like find complete file layout dxf files information would appreciated patrick l computer systems specialist university wisconsin ph \( 715 \) 394 superior , wisconsin uwsuper edu
daimi aau dk \( \) subject x window pc organization daimi computer science department , aarhus university , denmark lines 7 x window package exists , runs om pc , dos \( maybe ms windows \) would happy hear thanx advance sorensen
operator queensu ca \( \) subject vanishing font problem organization department mathematics , queen 's university kingston lines 25 colleague bizarre font problem new mips workstation first logs \( via xdm \) , single xterm window appear mwm window manager running configuration , x windows applications \( particularly xdvi \) work fine however , opens second xterm application , suddenly xdvi cannot start either window , giving error unable load iso 8859 1 font difference two xterm windows initial one references different name xsession file , prettier colours slight changes investigation shows opening default xterm causes behaviour , significant , x applications longer load fonts invoked command line either window start xterm different font \( using fn option \) , problems would seem default xterm loading font somehow causes server lose fonts note either window shows fonts available , n't appear problem font directories hash tables rewriting xterm app defaults file use different font hope best , anyone ideas \? info recent mips workstation \( r4000 believe \) , current operating system running x11r5 mwm 's fault , problems occur twm , etc
edit \( henrik hjort \) subject postscript x terminal lines 15 x newsreader tin 1 1 pl3 problem i'm using postscript working local sun ipc postscript works good , connect sun x terminal get error messages postscript cannot connect news display n't postscript work x terminal \? way make work \? henrik henrik hjort hjort
technet sg \( ong \) subject image processing packages x nntp posting host solomon technet sg x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 20 mishra \( mishra cs sunysb edu \) wrote looking package implements standard image processing functions \( reading writing standard formats \) , clipping , zoom , etc implemented x public domain private packages interest particular application area mind medical imaging , package meant general context would acceptable please reply summarize net general interest mishra mishra sbcs sunysb edu keep tabs faq sci image processing quite comprehensive compilation image processing w \( x included \) 've ftp'ed imagemagick great check faq
sedona intel com \( jon \) subject strange problem text organization intel corporation lines 28 distribution world nntp posting host tasmania intel com originator sedona hello , testing port x11r5 coherent , unix clone os intel architecture machines seeing strange problem text clients like xvt \( simple terminal emulator program \) problem manifests self shell echoes typed characters back server display , one time characters appear closely spaced , result 2nd character echoed destroys edge first character , 3rd character destroys edge second character , looks like invisible boundary around character portion previous character problem characters shell returns complete line text output series individual characters anyone ideas problem might , look find , would much appreciated regards thanks , jon jon internet sedona intel com intel corp 69 phone \( 602 \) 554 5000 w chandler blvd opinions expressed , chandler , az employer 's
cdc com \( ed \) subject cxterm mips organization internet lines 13 xpert expo lcs mit edu hello , anyone built cxterm \( x11r5 \) mips platform , please send email n't read group 've bunch questions \) thanks edward control data taiwan voice 886 2 715 2222 6 f , 131 east road , section 3 fax 886 2 712 taipei , taiwan r c
trevor telesoft com \( trevor ignite \) subject repost accelerators translations keywords accelerator , case organization alsys group , san diego , ca , usa lines 75 sdennis aa cad slb com sdennis osf org writes posted ago n't receive one reply , another bug report subject anybody help \? problem motif uses xgrabkey implement menu accelerators , grabs specific modifiers apply unfortunately , specification xgrabkey n't allow combined modifiers , exactly would desired case ctrl key q ora vol 6 , section accelerators says information specify translation tables see vol 4 , know put xmnaccelerator resource go vol 4 says , likewise , modifier specified , nothing prohibit modifiers present well example , translation shift key q quit \( \) take effect even ctrl key held time shift key \( q key \) true accelerators mnemonics , implemented using event handlers instead grabs 's true menu accelerators 're motif implementor , 'd suggest lobbying get xlib semantics changed support feature described otherwise , change documentation menu accelerators properly set user 's expectations , menu accelerators thing translations possible supply 1 accelerator menu entry \? mean menu accelerator , 's possible 's according definition xmnaccelerator resource manual page keep mind answering question using motif ca n't use \( \) ca n't think reason ensure accelerators work independent case \? want ctrl ctrl accelerators one menu entry workaround motif users addition normal menu accelerator install gadget , set resource shell \( toplevel application \) install shell 's accelerators descendants \( shell , shell \) example , applicationshell mainwindow menubar accelerator ctrl key ctrl accelerator ctrl key q ctrl q applicationshell accelerators override n ctrl key \( , \) n ctrl key q \( , \) write add application action , implement using first argument rest arguments tested something similar shorten development time , used teleuse 's resource install accelerators shell , directly invoked open quit actions instead asking pushbuttons , general approach described work trevor \( trevor telesoft com \)
rgooch rp csiro au \( richard gooch \) subject animation xputimage \( \) \? organization csiro division radiophysics australia telescope national facility lines 51 article 1993apr22 2190 infodev cam ac uk , dcr mail ast cam ac uk \( derek c richardson \) writes implemented seems achieve display rates \( 20 frames sec ipx \) get sunview , though 's bit choppy times also , loading data , making ximage , pixmap bit cumbersome , animation slower load sunview better way load data \? rgooch rp csiro au \( richard gooch \) writes need speed , client run host x server , use shared memory extension sample x server \( mit shm \) xdpyinfo tell server extension certainly available sample mit x server running sunos word warning make sure kernel configured support shared memory another word warning openwindows slower mit server written imaging tool \( using xview gui , way \) yields 10 frames per second 512 512 8 bit images , running sparc ipc \( half cpu grunt ipx \) proved quite sufficient animations regards , richard gooch shared memory \( also mentioned delphi beckman uiuc edu , nick \) looks interesting , need someone point documentation method likely give better results server resident pixmaps \? 'd also interested looking xview code mentioned thanks help far get something decent put together , 'll definitely post net mit tapes come documentation written keith packard shared memory extension x look mit doc extensions mit shm ms found unfortunately , bit work set shared memory segments , making ximage , etc also , extension query determine server supports , still need test server running host shared memory enabled kernel written layers routines make transparent xview code , well , doubt would considered interesting interesting stuff done c object library people interested code email regards , richard gooch , rgooch csiro au
egan phony25 cc utah edu \( egan f ford \) subject need help key bindings reply egan phony25 cc utah edu hellgate utah edu organization call business systems lines 21 need help binding value home end keys keyboard rs 6000 w 2 running mit dist i'm using pc running exceed windows xterminal home end keys send value , application needs defined used xdefaults define keys vt100 translations override key home string \( 033 8 \) n key end string \( 033 7 \) xterm name works perfect , however 7 1 key keypad also defined 033 8 033 7 ideas \? help please thanks egan f ford egan phony25 cc utah edu hellgate utah edu
marc aip org \( marc wiener \) subject core dump \( \? \) organization american institute physics lines 11 getting memory fault core dump whenever end motif session ultrix 4 3 , running dec 5000 240 core file leads us believe 's anyone know \? marc marc wiener marc aip org american institute physics 500 blvd voice \( 516 \) 576 woodbury , ny fax \( 516 \) 349
dcr mail ast cam ac uk \( derek c richardson \) subject animation xputimage \( \) \? nntp posting host ioas09 ast cam ac uk reply dcr mail ast cam ac uk organization institute astronomy , cambridge lines 33 article nrao edu , rgooch rp csiro au \( richard gooch \) writes mit tapes come documentation written keith packard shared memory extension x look mit doc extensions mit shm ms found unfortunately , bit work set shared memory segments , making ximage , etc also , extension query determine server supports , still need test server running host shared memory enabled kernel written layers routines make transparent xview code , well , doubt would considered interesting interesting stuff done c object library people interested code email regards , richard gooch , rgooch csiro au thanks docs info turns leave colormap updates frames use tvtwm , tests 100 frames ipx using server resident pixmap method give astonishing 50 frames per second ! smooth think 've found best solution \( thanks generous help group ! \) however , may colormap questions later derek derek c richardson tel \( 0223 \) 337548 x 37501 institute astronomy fax \( 0223 \) 337523 cambridge , u k cb3 0ha e mail dcr mail ast cam ac uk
rob earhart earhart cmu edu subject animation xputimage \( \) \? organization pittsburgh supercomputing center lines 38 1993apr22 2190 infodev cam ac uk nntp posting host po5 andrew cmu edu reply 1993apr22 2190 infodev cam ac uk dcr mail ast cam ac uk \( derek c richardson \) writes shared memory \( also mentioned delphi beckman uiuc edu , nick \) looks interesting , need someone point documentation method likely give better results server resident pixmaps \? 'd also interested looking xview code mentioned 's documentation use shared memory extension x11r5 distribution actually , finished writing motif animation program \( take lots image data display pretty darn fast \) using server pixmaps shared memory , insert delay loop keep going quickly \) testing methods side side , equal advantage shm x server n't grow ridiculous sizes pixmaps work network removed application dies \( one tends use manually quite bit debugging shm apps \) shared memory also problem operating systems \( e g ultrix \) seem allow small number segments \( 6 \) attached process consequently , redraw becomes \( \) \( \) \( \) dec systems dec 's 24 bit displays \( like ones tend use often \) n't seem support extension \( maybe someone compiled wrong \? \) , using pixmaps causes x server crash \( failed \) , one use local unix domain socket \( really n't bad one copies info three times per redraw instead one \) short allowing three forms display , within program good thing \( minus shm running network \) , let user pick whatever feels fastest \( use class forget \) \) rob
cwikla morrison wri com \( john cwikla \) subject pixmaps colormaps sent selections summary selections pixmaps colormaps keywords selections nntp posting host morrison wri com organization wolfram research , inc lines 18 want able send pixmap one client next along want send colormap foreground background pixel values far problem , problem however , pixmap id colormap id , go telling server second \( receiving \) client wants associations two id 's \? tia , john john l cwikla x programmer x never first wolfram research , inc letter alphabet cwikla wri com \( 217 \) 398 0700
uucp \( ralph \) subject dynamic configuration twm keywords twm , twm , vtwm , tvtwm , organization systems strategies , inc , ny , ny lines 123 consider twm style squeezed titles indispensable window manager like two tall xterm windows visible time , overlap since two windows n't enough , xterm windows underneath , exactly positioning case 're familiar squeezed titles , 's crude picture figure 1 title title b title c window b hides window c , body still see c 's title window , window squeezed right figure 1 squeezed titles allow 5 windows stack , easy access 3 per stack usually really need , since also insist virtual wm problem title location static , , configured , order change edit file restart window manager cumbersome time consuming therefore , implemented f squeeze left , center , right functions copy vtwm idea one click button , change title body window , window title body window , window okay far , good , heck get put next official twm , next tvtwm , next vtwm , next \? next never heard \? one way would post , comp windows x , description enhancement , together explanation think good thing , hope someone reads \) case n't already clear think 's good thing , look back figure 1 , picture window moved top windows b c window 's title hides window b 's title hit f , result title b title title c body window , window , top rest posting explains implement , based x11r4 copy shar 's sketch posting full diffs would long key enhancement add following lines \( \) routine menus c ifdef shape case f static left squeeze j left , 0 , 0 \( \( context , , scr \) \) return true tmp win squeeze info left squeeze \( tmp win \) break similarly \( j right \) \( j center \) endif \( course , also define f parse h add f , , f , forth parse c order use functions , add something like following file w v r door f year ago , posted , news broken think n't get since , blast appeared comp sources x , volume 19 , issue 41 could use blast achieve similar effect , away mwm style wide title better twm style window manager , think ralph \( fm \) , uunet ! ! com question whether computer swim interesting question whether submarine think lenny dykstra
whaley sigma kpc com \( ken whaley \) subject animation xputimage \( \) \? reply dcr mail ast cam ac uk 's message thu , 22 apr 1993 09 28 30 gmt organization kubota pacific computer inc 1993apr22 2190 infodev cam ac uk lines 38 shared memory \( also mentioned delphi beckman uiuc edu , nick \) looks interesting , need someone point documentation method likely give better results server resident pixmaps \? 'd also interested looking xview code mentioned easy answer question depends whether display device hold pixmaps screen memory , , efficiently server manages resources \( deal limited screen memory bane server implementor 's existence ! \) worked graphics devices screen memory main display copy rate main memory display copy rate , main memory display faster screen display \( requires write framebuffer rather read f b followed write \) server uses cfb code something like render pixmaps cpu main memory , rates get mit shm likely equal \( maybe tad slower , depending os 's implementation shared memory \) pixmap window , also copy cpu main memory graphics device one mit shm images large , n't end growing size server process hold one disadvantage mit shm , sample implementation , provision elegantly cleaning shared memory segments client dies sudden , violent death \( e g , kill \) system shared memory segments ken kenneth whaley \( 408 \) 748 6347 kubota pacific computer , inc email whaley kpc com 2630 walsh avenue santa clara , ca 95051
deforest ee washington edu \( pramod \) subject help xlib include files article shelley distribution world organization university washington , seattle lines 28 nntp posting host deforest ee washington edu hi xperts ! sparc 1 limited disk space usr partition previously , able run x windows applications upgraded system sun 4 1 3 realized , hard disk enough space load openwindows immediate alternative load neccessary files boot system resulted loading openwindows result none x libraries got loaded trying load libraries include files bin x11 files required running x windows compiling programs written xlib xaw desperate effort regain x windows , retrieved usr lib files tape usr bin x11 usr include x11 enough running x windows get usr lib x11 fonts sub directories mainly 100dpi , 75dpi misc run xinit , error message says usr lib x11 fonts 100dpi etc default path problem cannot load directories disk space temporary suggestions get 1 5 gb disk load openwindows , x windows running thanks pramod
nicholas ibmpcug co uk \( nicholas young \) subject writing motif widget x disclaimer views expressed article author alone may represent views ibm pc user group organization ibm pc user group , uk lines 22 anyone give information , please need \( probably \) write one new motif widgets hp ux platform need motif private header files source , make public headers provided \? motif includes xt context one widget multi column list \( lots people already written , sure \) , would therefore probably subclass list rather something simple like xt class difficult \( principle , lines code \) \? alternatively , anyone multi column list widget could sell , might save write one ! chance exist motif 1 2 already \( yet spec \) \? answers appreciated , nicholas nicholas young \( 44 71 637 9111 \)
toml blade boulder parcplace com \( tom lastrange \) subject forcing window manager accept specific coordinates window reply toml boulder parcplace com organization parcplace boulder lines 45 article bub wsinfo03 win tue nl , wsinfo03 win tue nl \( richard \) writes bading cs tu berlin de \( tobias 'doping' bading \) writes try xcreatewindow xsizehints flags usposition ussize pposition psize \( display , window , xsizehints \) hints tell window manager position size window specified users window manager accept values use xsizehints flags pposition psize , tells window manager values prefered values program , user n't know window manager n't place window like prefer specify position size like sorry , olwm tvtwm n't place title position window position reason place outside corner location requested 's icccm says becomes problem want program able save current configuration restore later currently , solution xcreatewindow \( \) \( \) xmapwindow \( \) xflush \( \) xmovewindow \( \) code almost certainly break calling xmapwindow xflush guarantee window visible managed window manager even work , n't reliable way find much decoration window manager placed around window , n't know far move window manager refuses move window \? tom lastrange toml boulder parcplace com
gowen jade tufts edu \( g lee owen \) subject postscript x terminal reply edit 's message 22 apr 93 14 08 31 gmt lines 20 organization tufts university medford , distribution na problem i'm using postscript working local sun sparcstation ipc postscript works good , connect sun x terminal get error messages postscript cannot connect news display n't postscript work x terminal xterminals news server xterminals speed nature limited functionality add news everything else , workstation workarounds , 've heard , one involving perl script trying replace programs need news \( like pageview \) programs n't \( like ghostview \) maybe someone else elaborate perl workaround personal experience greg owen gowen forte cs tufts edu , gowen jade tufts edu systems programmer ta , tufts university computer science dept 230 transfers disclaimed host name boss 's address 230 n't like policy , disconnect !
dyoung media mit edu \( david young \) subject q colormaps dialog shells organization mit media laboratory lines 17 applicationshell uses colormap created xcreatecolormap \( \) uses colors available 8 bit display move cursor window get effect fine basically , program works problem question popup dialogshell prompt user input want set primary application modal result cursor dialogshell get colormap , cursor applicationshell \( window dialogshell \) get default colormap 'd like cursor window application , get colormap suggestions \? thanks , david ,
banz umbc edu \( rob banz \) subject looking r5 xserver hp9000 385 organization university maryland , baltimore county campus lines 14 distribution na nntp posting host umbc7 umbc edu x auth user banz subject says anyone know find one binaries nice , source would thanks advance , rob banz \( banz umbc edu \) give people alternative microsoft greater good steve jobs \( , april 1993 \) yes , bill , father ! ibm os 2 presentation ,
com \( ted \) subject wcl 2 02 organization process automation lines 17 hi , problem compiled wcl 2 02 sco odt 2 0 cc c ox usr include c c c \( 47 \) error ' undefined error code 1 although follow instructions file readme build build wcl sco platform , problem n't resolve questions related matter 1 exist sco odt 2 0 \? \( use x11r3 x11r4 \? release sco odt 2 0 use , x11r3 x11r4 \? \) 2 , someone know work around \?
mikes co uk \( mike \) subject xterm status line color organization internet lines 6 xpert expo lcs mit edu i'm looking version xterm handles color vt220 style status lines anyone help \? thanks
wcl risc sps mot com \( wayne long \) subject problem running aix info sun rlogin shell organization motorola \( austin , tx \) lines 22 nntp posting host sps mot com run rs6000 's info utility remote login shell \( rlogin \) sun sparc 1 , longer type lower case info 's window prompt 's thought prob may due sun window mgr \( openlook \) incompatible aix motif application tried tvtwm also result presumably x11 key definition problem workstations system ignorance need able type lower case remote aix motif app within local openlook window manager \? wayne long internet wcl risc sps mot com 6501 william cannon drive west uucp cs texas edu ! oakhill ! risc ! wcl austin , texas 78735 8598 phone \( 512 \) 891 fax 891 3818
toml blade boulder parcplace com \( tom lastrange \) subject repost accelerators translations keywords accelerator , case reply toml boulder parcplace com organization parcplace boulder lines 68 article 1993apr22 telesoft com , trevor telesoft com \( trevor ignite \) writes sdennis aa cad slb com sdennis osf org writes posted ago n't receive one reply , another bug report subject anybody help \? problem motif uses xgrabkey implement menu accelerators , grabs specific modifiers apply unfortunately , specification xgrabkey n't allow combined modifiers , exactly would desired case ctrl key q ora vol 6 , section accelerators says information specify translation tables see vol 4 , know put xmnaccelerator resource go vol 4 says , likewise , modifier specified , nothing prohibit modifiers present well example , translation shift key q quit \( \) take effect even ctrl key held time shift key \( q key \) true accelerators mnemonics , implemented using event handlers instead grabs 's true menu accelerators 're motif implementor , 'd suggest lobbying get xlib semantics changed support feature described otherwise , change documentation menu accelerators properly set user 's expectations , menu accelerators thing translations possible supply 1 accelerator menu entry \? mean menu accelerator , 's possible 's according definition xmnaccelerator resource manual page keep mind answering question using motif ca n't use \( \) ca n't think reason ensure accelerators work independent case \? want ctrl ctrl accelerators one menu entry find thread motif accelerators amazing writing interface keyboard accelerators , would one resource called accelerators took translation table , period would also implement programmer never work get accelerators installed soon end user specified one , would active automatically installed get multiple accelerators single menu item 'd something like accelerators override n ctrl key fire \( \) n shift key l fire \( \) n accelerators would work exactly like translations would automatically see ctrl show object world motif stuff complicated many different special cases depending type widget 're dealing \? reason sorry political tone message tom lastrange toml boulder parcplace com
rgooch rp csiro au \( richard gooch \) subject animation xputimage \( \) \? organization csiro division radiophysics australia telescope national facility lines 27 article whaley sigma kpc com , whaley sigma kpc com \( ken whaley \) writes one mit shm images large , n't end growing size server process hold correct x servers use version malloc \( 3 \) return memory os \( ie x server might free \( 3 \) pixmap , heap shrink \) one disadvantage mit shm , sample implementation , provision elegantly cleaning shared memory segments client dies sudden , violent death \( e g , kill \) system shared memory segments well , part routines mentioned dirty little trick get around problem first , create shared memory segment , attach client , attach x server , remove \( ! \) segment read man pages removing shared memory segments , see segment dies attachments gone , client dies , 's one attachment gone \( os \) since x server notices client dies , 's resources , including segment goes last attachment shared memory segment terrible , works regards , richard gooch
cs montana edu \( \) subject xterm patches alpha osf 1 2 \? article coe 1993apr22 organization cs lines 24 well , dec cf , osf def , \( ca n't remember exact names \) osf normal x11r5 distribution , everything compiles links fine , xterm n't run warning representation size 8 must match 's override background warning translation table syntax error modifier ' ' expected warning found parsing 'p j \? 'p \) ' x error failed request \( invalid colormap parameter \) major opcode failed request 85 \( x \) resource id failed request 0x0 serial number failed request 18 current serial number output stream 18 , core x stuff seems working ok hints tips appreciated , patches would thanks , coe systems manager \( 406 \) 994 410 roberts hall , dept computer science montana state university , mt cs montana edu
opus csc com \( bruce \) subject x gl widget translation problem article opus organization internet lines 14 xpert expo lcs mit edu writing custom widget support display graphics imagery user widget able specify , creating , whether operate x gl mode set translations actions handle mouse button presses work fine widget x mode gl mode work widget \( gl x widget \) child manager put another way , translations work widget configured gl mode child shell anyone know happening \? thanks advance bruce csc com
reznik wisc edu \( dan reznik \) subject text field dialog widget n't get focus organization college engineering , univ wisconsin madison originator reznik wisc edu lines 49 using glx widget athena widgets mixed model application , , dialog gets popped , text entry field focus code works perfectly use pure x \( mixed model \) relevant portion code int n arg wargs 16 widget button , popupshell , dialog initialize toplevel n 0 xtsetarg \( wargs n , xtnlabel , foo \) n button xtcreatemanagedwidget \( , , toplevel , wargs , n \) popupshell \( , , button , null , 0 \) xtaddcallback \( popupshell , , , \( xtpointer \) popupshell \) n 0 xtsetarg \( wargs n , , \) n dialog xtcreatemanagedwidget \( , , popupshell , wargs , n \) void \( w , popup shell , call data \) widget w widget popup shell xtpointer call data \( popup shell , \) way found give focus text field move application window around little bit place right behind popup pointers would greatly appreciated
reznik wisc edu \( dan reznik \) subject correction last posting \( glx lack dialog widget \) organization u wisconsin madison , robotics laboratory reply reznik wisc edu 's message 22 apr 93 18 22 55 cdt lines 13 code sent , please replace line xtaddcallback \( popupshell , , , \( xtpointer \) popupshell \) xtaddcallback \( button , , , \( xtpointer \) popupshell \) rest \( question \) remains dan
dwex cbnewsj cb att com \( david e wexelblat \) subject dell 2 2 eisa video cards organization lines 25 belongs comp windows x 've redirected followups article gator rn com larry gator rn com \( larry snyder \) writes xfree86 support eisa video cards dell 2 2 \? larry snyder larry gator rn com know fact eisa version orchid prodesigner iis works however , eisa svga card likely waste money xfree86 2 0 comes , support accelerated chipsets , isa , eisa , vlb supported important question chipsets supported \? bus basically irrelevent compatibility issue david wexelblat dwex mtgzfs3 att com \( 908 \) 957 fax \( 908 \) 957 bell laboratories , 200 laurel ave 3f 428 , middletown , nj xfree86 requests addressed xfree86 physics su oz au love like oxygen get much , get high enough 're gonna die sweet , love like oxygen
jupiter fuentez com \( joe hildebrand \) subject question regarding graphics organization internet lines 30 grace cs orst edu \( \) cc xpert expo lcs mit edu let 's say two rectangles canvas \( see \) one intersecting , would like delete one rectangles way create another gc wherein use gxxor logical function simply redraw rectangle using newly created graphics context thus deleting apparent purposes problem approach points intersection pixel locations belonging rectangle also become white , something avoided could set bitmap mask clear bitmap , draw rectangle deleted draw one stay gxxor entire pixmap screen note pretty effective way animation , ever need \( replace gxxor \) joe hildebrand fuentez com software engineer fuentez systems concepts \( 703 \) 273 standard disclaimers apply
tim kimba catt citri edu au \( tim liddelow \) subject keysym database problems keywords x , motif organization catt centre citri , melbourne , australia lines 31 problems motif application run another machine \( different x paths , etc \) ca n't find xkeysymdb file causes large warning output warning translation table syntax error unknown keysym name osfactivate warning found parsing ' key osfactivate \( \) ' warning translation table syntax error unknown keysym name osfcancel warning found parsing ' key osfcancel \( \) ' warning translation table syntax error unknown keysym name osfselect warning found parsing ' key osfselect \( \) ' etc file different location , xt seems look place machine app compiled way read xkeysymdb manually x xt call additions xkeysymdb distributed application \? used trace \( 1 \) find going , need fix translations application recognised tim tim liddelow \( \) fork \( \) systems programmer centre advanced technology telecommunications brain bad day citri , melbourne , australia internet tim kimba catt citri edu au phone 61 3 282 2455 fax 61 3 282
pyeatt texaco com \( larry pyeatt \) subject mix gl x \( xlib , xt , mwm \) nntp posting host 211 2 1 65 organization texaco lines 24 article scorpion dps co uk , gerard dps co uk \( gerard o'driscoll \) writes pyeatt texaco com writes widget already defined gl glxmdraw \( motif \) \( athena \) widget similar xmdrawingarea , except allows use gl calls render window look , , , man pages get hold widgets \? gerard o'driscoll \( gerard odriscoll dps co uk \) du pont pixel systems ltd come every iris nth also ships latest version nth portable gl got update couple weeks ago would assume silicon graphics would license source include company 's gl offering larry pyeatt views expressed internet pyeatt texaco com employer anyone voice \( 713 \) 975 know possible exception
drand spinner osf org \( douglas rand \) subject writing motif widget reply nicholas ibmpcug co uk 's message thu , 22 apr 1993 17 17 40 gmt organization open software foundation lines 40 article ibmpcug co uk nicholas ibmpcug co uk \( nicholas young \) writes need \( probably \) write one new motif widgets hp ux platform need motif private header files source , make public headers provided \? motif includes xt context yes 'll find almost impossible without source point depend ambitious concerned compliance general interface items like traversal one widget multi column list \( lots people already written , sure \) , would therefore probably subclass list rather something simple like xt class difficult \( principle , lines code \) \? i'm sure 're asking could create something much like true multi column list placing several lists within geometry manager , putting manager within automatic window would n't good large lists , might consider alternative alternatively , anyone multi column list widget could sell , might save write one ! chance exist motif 1 2 already \( yet spec \) \? motif 1 2 multi column list looked commercial sets \? also pd widget sets , one might multi column list could port douglas rand drand osf org osf motif dev snail 11 cambridge center , cambridge , 02142 disclaimer n't know osf agrees let 's vote amateur radio kc1kj
rps arbortext com \( ralph seguin \) subject numlock masking \? interference meta compose , organization internet lines 17 xpert expo lcs mit edu question means determining state capslock numlock \? alright ignore bit deeper \( \) found looking ev state bunch masks check \( one capslock \) unfortunately , appears numlock mask varies server server one tell mask numlock meta \( , , , , \) eg , sgi 's vendor server numlock , whereas solaris 1 0 1 openwindows 3 0 numlock unambiguous means determining numlock 's mask runtime given server \? sorry wasted bandwidth appalling ignorance thanks , ralph
soda berkeley edu \( david simpson \) subject trying find papers rosenthal article agate organization uc berkeley , cs undergraduate association lines 29 nntp posting host soda berkeley edu march april version x journal open front 'll working programming x clients summer , since n't much experience programming x , thought issue might helpful section debugging , section 40 common errors programming x end errors section , following references tutorials x programming style rosenthal , david simple x11 client program proceedings winter 1988 usenix conference , 1988 lemke , , rosenthal , x11 clients proceedings winter 1989 usenix conference , 1989 anyone know could find printed \( preferably \) electronic form \? suggest net resources devoted introduction programming x \( 'll looking bookstore books , really asking find net \) thanks , david simpson soda berkeley edu
cjhs minster york ac uk subject xt intrinsics slow popups organization department computer science , university york , england lines 33 cjhs minster york ac uk wrote help running sample problems o'reilly volume 4 , xt programming manual , chapter 3 popup dialog boxes example 3 5 , page 76 creating pop dialog box application creates window button quit press button press pops dialog box strange feature program always pops dialog box much faster first time try pop 2nd time \( 3rd , 4th time \) , much slower anyone experience sample programs , get behaviour fast response time first time slow response time 2nd time onwards \? anyone give ideas program popups time popup reasonable fast response time \? thankyou shirley thanks responded able prevent behaviour two methods 1 \) running twm rather olwm 2 \) keeping olwm , putting 10 resources suggested something window manager positioning popup window guru analyse going information , please post let us know thanks shirley
spdc ti com \( bob shaw \) subject question xon x11r5 article organization ti semiconductor process design center lines 23 nntp posting host hi folks say , i'm new r5 one quick question using xon \( xon machine name \) , notice always comes small window i'm pretty sure default font xterms work normally xon supposed read xresources font size \? xrdb q appears show right stuff use xon arguments xterm fn 10x20 etc everything correct course could always simple script , feeling i'm missing something simple comments suggestions appreciated thanks advance bob spdc ti com mm
seth ponder csci unt edu \( seth \) subject gui study organization university north texas , denton distribution na lines 35 little like icons instant recipe imho system 7 undoubtedly worst gui used \( , , , x11 \) simply provide enough keyboard windows must confess quite like \( cover ears \) \) actually use without ever touch mouse stuff delete user rather making things easier always option way want , like unix x combination much 's customizable hear ! hear ! agree completely one thing ca n't stand mac interface shear determination force use mouse \( mouse breaks whole system ! \) like mouse handy cut past moving icons around , etc work , keyboard hot keys 10 20 times faster using mouse sure plus able something simple inexperienced user , long experienced \? month \? two \? \( speaking pcs moment \) n't think much ask window programmers provide menu mouse interface also look forward would like move hot keys command line interfaces , usually allows less time experienced equally applies windowing systems unix \( especially since unix least 500 powerful dos \) seth u gab 550 817 565 seth cs unt edu seth gab unt edu unix operator
uucp \( ann marie \) subject x terminal config file question organization corporation , , fl distribution usa lines 19 question exact entry \( parameter syntax please \) , x terminal configuration file \( loaded x terminal boots \) , add another system tcp ip access control list \? background two unix systems , 1 3b2 running x11r3 mit 's x11r4 2 sun without x want window sun 3b2 ncd x terminal time manually set network parameter tcp ip access control list , login telnet session great ! 've tried get xhost work failed either syntax wrong x11r3 implementation bogus trying edit ncd configuration file loaded ncd boots matter entry add edit , ncd still boots tcp ip access control list containing 3b2 manuals worthless help would appreciated ! ! thanks ! ann marie af mil
davewood bruno cs colorado edu \( david rex wood \) subject x error failed request badpixmap \( invalid pixmap parameter \) nntp posting host bruno cs colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 68 could someone please give guess simple little program causes badpixmap error fourth \( bizarre \? \? \? \) call \( \) \? code int 0 static void callback \( widget , xtpointer , xtpointer \) main \( \) \( \) xtappcontext app \( \) \( 1 \) int junk 0 display dis \( app , null , null , null , null , 0 , junk , null \) widget top \( null , null , applicationshellwidgetclass , dis , null , 0 \) widget box xtvacreatemanagedwidget \( x , , top , , 25 , , 25 , null \) xtaddcallback \( box , , callback , null \) xtrealizewidget \( top \) \( ! \) xevent event \( app , event \) \( event \) 0 \( top , \( \( top \) \) \) needed \? xtdestroywidget \( top \) \( dis \) static void callback \( widget , xtpointer , xtpointer \) 1 error get \( yes , 4th time try show box \) x error failed request badpixmap \( invalid pixmap parameter \) major opcode failed request 55 \( x \) resource id failed request serial number failed request 71 current serial number output stream 85 please respond via email thanks , much ! \( note realize program nothing useful , ultra trivialized version fo real library routine \) david rex wood davewood cs colorado edu university colorado boulder
bull fr \( christian mollard \) subject looking david e smyth reply christian mollard ec bull fr organization bull lines 23 article 1993apr9 nynexst com , zvi nynexst com \( zvi \) writes author wcl \( current care taker \) name found dist tree tried mail david smyth ap mchp sni de , mail bounced back help finding greatly appreciated try david uucp david siemens com xtian name christian mollard email c mollard bull fr phone \( 33 \) 76 39 78 92 bull 229 78 92 fax \( 33 \) 76 39 76 00 address bull , b p 208 , cedex , france
\( stefan de \) subject virtual mwm \? nntp posting host nemesis reply organization , 75 3001 leuven belgium lines 12 hi netland , thought read existance virtual mwm like vtwm usual ftp sites \( dec com , export lcs mit edu \) ca n't find trace program could anybody give hint find program confirm deny existance program regards , stefan
ravl rice edu \( dan \) subject installation problem x11r5 organization rice university lines 32 process installing x11r5 sun sparcstation 2 run problem imagine something missing screen driver , something along lines , figured someone internet land might able help installing machine already openlook installed , would like installed concurrently thus , set compile usr x11r5 directory worked kinks getting compiled \( gcc \) , compiles without warnings need installed pex si , set appropriate flags run , however , get message along lines getting interface configuration operation supported socket inappropriate ioctl device fatal server error screens found ideas fix \? please respond e mail address thanks advance dan want works want dying woody allen dan dept electrical computer engineering rice edu rice university uunet ! rice edu ! uunet uu net houston , tx
andi org \( david \) subject imake cpp problems aix keywords imake organization prc , inc lines 29 trying build use imake \( x11r4 \) ibm rs 6000 running aix v3 2 following 2 problems \( 1 \) many imakefile 's like makefile start lines pass makefile comments thru c preprocessor makefile c used treat appearing start line thus c preprocessor treat hash symbol start directive however ibm cpp strips comment treats hash symbol start directive cpp fails determines known directive temporarily hacked imake handle situation would like come better fix \( 2 \) several imakefiles use parameter macro particular use macro need value parameter aix cpp gives warnings situations continues work ok familiar problems solutions , would appreciate information solutions \( perhaps , solved later version imake reviewed \) also , know cpp 's behave similarly \? since easy access news , response billy po gis prc com' would appreciated
andi org \( david \) subject imake dos windows summary porting imake dos keywords imake organization association nextstep developers international lines 6 anyone experience porting imake dos using microsoft , , dos compiler \? since easy access news , response billy po gis prc com' would appreciated
mlee eng sdsu edu \( mike lee \) subject post script viewer organization san diego state university computing services lines 8 nntp posting host eng sdsu edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 hello , recently printing lot files school 's laser printer feeling guilty please help showing get post script viewer x windows thank help student trying ability
bading cs tu berlin de \( tobias 'doping' bading \) subject forcing window manager accept specific coordinates window organization technical university berlin , germany lines 36 distribution world boulder parcplace com bub wsinfo03 win tue nl nntp posting host athene cs tu berlin de mime version 1 0 content type text plain charset iso 8859 1 content transfer encoding 8bit reply wsinfo03 win tue nl 's message 22 apr 1993 10 33 20 0200 article bub wsinfo03 win tue nl wsinfo03 win tue nl \( richard \) writes sorry , olwm tvtwm n't place title position window position becomes problem want program able save current configuration restore later currently , solution xcreatewindow \( \) \( \) xmapwindow \( \) xflush \( \) xmovewindow \( \) works olwm , less elegant leaves wondering i'm overlooking something obvious richard know mwm resource specify positions used border window user window maybe window managers similar options another way figure difference user window position window manager decoration window position subtract positions use xquerytree remember window manager decorations window parent window unfortunately , figure decoration width height window mapped way greeting , tobias \( bading cs tu berlin de \)
nestvx enet dec com \( burkhard neidecker lutz \) subject animation xputimage \( \) \? organization cec karlsruhe lines 14 nntp posting host nestvx article 1993apr22 nrao edu rgooch rp csiro au \( richard gooch \) writes remove shared memory segment terrible , works terrible \? 's exactly way code two years way temporary files unix systems managed time \( open , \) burkhard neidecker lutz distributed multimedia group , cec karlsruhe portfolio manager software motion pictures ii project multimedia base technology digital equipment corporation neidecker nestvx enet dec com
nyx cs du edu \( \) subject image plotting source code needed organization university denver , dept math comp sci lines 7 hi , i'm looking source sample create window image \( actually matrix unsigned char \) help appreciated ! \) \)
ks nt com \( shah \) subject question motif shell widget vuewm organization bnr distribution usa lines 16 dear netters , noticed something rather \( think \) creating dialog shell widget running hp vue 's vuewm reason , every time create dialog shell foreground colors different compared toplevel shell anything special different body know anything problem \? \? fix without g colors \? please respond cary nc usa thanks !
afielden cbnewsb cb att com \( andrew j fielden \) subject x benchmarks keywords benchmark organization lines 17 process evaluating x terminals includes running xremote serial line would like run x benchmarks determine comparative performance anyone written benchmarks , know useful programs net \? heard program called , could n't locate using archie please reply afielden mlsma att com , n't get read newsgroup much thanks advance help andrew fielden network systems uk tel 44 666 information systems group \( sun support \) email afielden mlsma att com
queloz bernina ethz ch \( ronald queloz \) subject hypercard unix organization swiss federal institute technology \( eth \) , zurich , ch lines 10 hi netlanders , anybody know something like macintosh hypercard unix platform \? thanks advance ron
lapp waterloo hp com \( david lapp \) subject numlock masking \? interference meta compose , nntp posting host waterloo hp com organization hp div waterloo canada x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 9 lines 34 ralph seguin \( rps arbortext com \) wrote question means determining state capslock numlock \? alright ignore bit deeper \( \) found looking ev state bunch masks check \( one capslock \) unfortunately , appears numlock mask varies server server one tell mask numlock meta \( , , , , \) eg , sgi 's vendor server numlock , whereas solaris 1 0 1 openwindows 3 0 numlock unambiguous means determining numlock 's mask runtime given server \? sorry wasted bandwidth appalling ignorance 'll check keysym \( \) keys modifier one numlock mapping modifier want bit ugly perhaps think currently way \( precedent used differentiate capslock lock modifier \) n't know accepted strategy handling ambiguous assignments either \( ie numlock mapped one modifier \) suppose first found good x n't handle locking modifiers well hope helps , dave lapp standard disclaimer etc
mitch unidata ucar edu \( mitch \) subject motif based graphing package organization university corporation atmospheric research \( ucar \) distribution na lines 15 need motif based graphing package integrate large software package development distribution universities either public domain commercial , although commercial package ca n't royalties required binary distribution need 2 graphing capabilities minimum , 3 would nice info would appreciated summarize interest thanks , mitch mitchell unidata program center mitch unidata ucar edu ucar , po box 3000 303 497 boulder , co 80307 3000
ccgwt trentu ca \( grant totten \) subject postscript x terminal lines 42 reply ccgwt trentu ca \( grant totten \) organization trent university tried e mail bounced hi , article uucp write edit \( henrik hjort \) subject postscript x terminal problem i'm using postscript working local sun ipc postscript works good , connect sun x terminal get error messages postscript cannot connect news display n't postscript work x terminal \? way make work \? might x terminal n't support postscript extensions x product use program decstation 5000 view postscript files moved ncd x terminal , could n't use ftp 'd compiled ghostscript \( gnu software \) view postscript files x terminals hope helps grant henrik henrik hjort hjort grant totten , programmer analyst , trent university , peterborough ontario trentu ca phone \( 705 \) 748 1653 fax \( 705 \) 748 1246 take everything trample anyone gets way
bocaraton ibm com \( thomas chun hong kok \) subject hypercard unix organization ibm austin lines 18 article 1993apr23 bernina ethz ch , queloz bernina ethz ch \( ronald queloz \) writes hi netlanders , anybody know something like macintosh hypercard unix platform \? thanks advance ron try metacard hypercard like programming environment x chun hong
ethan cs columbia edu \( ethan solomita \) subject forcing window manager accept specific coordinates window organization columbia university department computer science lines 18 article bading athene cs tu berlin de bading cs tu berlin de \( tobias 'doping' bading \) writes know mwm resource specify positions used border window user window maybe window managers similar options another way figure difference user window position window manager decoration window position subtract positions use xquerytree remember window manager decorations window parent window unfortunately , figure decoration width height window mapped way another way would use find relative frame , find window 's corner really ethan
lanzo tekelec com \( mark lanzo \) subject key definitions emacs x reply lanzo tekelec com \( mark lanzo \) organization tekelec inc , raleigh nc lines 44 prior article ajaffe oddjob uchicago edu \( andrew jaffe \) wrote hi use emacs want customize keyboard better set stuff emacs keymap define keys , access certain keys x terminal 's keyboard ca n't get e g f10 , home , end , , seem either keycode feeling ca n't fixed emacs , need xmodmap stuff someone help \? unfortunately , key event handling pretty much hardwired emacs ran problem back solution change source code special keys generated character sequences basically encoded keysym modifier state escape sequences example , sequence esc 1 b 7 would indicate home key pressed , shift key could also detect standard keys odd modifiers , shift return anybody wants changes , 're welcome , 'll source available comfortable bit basically replace keypress handling code source file c maybe someone osf interested , send , imagine 've got bigger fish fry \( hopefully including much talked emacs ! \) 's sufficient interest , 'll post mods somewhere , although probably n't appropriate group notes special code apply let emacs create \( x11 \) window run plain old tty mode \( includes xterm windows \) 's business usual patches made version 18 58 , sun os 4 1 2 also back hp ux patches chunk code ' sun could easily adapted anything else mark lanzo lanzo tekelec com 919 460 xx
lanzo tekelec com \( mark lanzo \) subject title xterm reply lanzo tekelec com \( mark lanzo \) organization tekelec inc , raleigh nc lines 65 prior article naoumov physics unc edu \( sergei naoumov \) writes hey guys ! work many stations would like name current logname title xterm 's open machine name 's closed words , want host logname appear title opened xterm host xterm closed \? apologies i'm answering something already answered faq news feed losing lot articles lately n't seen faq lately check two ways 1 \) start xterm , use command line options n icon name set icon label window title set window title title window title equivalent window title 2 \) use escape sequences change things fly basic escape sequence esc p arbitary text bel esc bel ascii escape bell characters , p ascii decimal digit , , '0' , depending whether trying set window icon title , , arbitary text desired label string hence , command set window icon title echo 033 0 title goes 007 c set icon title echo 033 1 title goes 007 c set window title echo 033 2 title goes 007 c course , may fiddle exact syntax , depending echo command works system shell using \( 've shown system v semantics bourne shells \) hint sun os users use usr echo instead bin echo csh 's built echo otherwise 'll embed literal esc bel characters string instead using convenient octal sequences want titlebar updated , say show current directory , hostname , somesuch , 'll see coerce shell spitting appropriate escape sequences prompts commands sometimes put appropriate escape sequence prompt string , sometimes mark lanzo lanzo tekelec com 919 460 xx
lanzo tekelec com \( mark lanzo \) subject find appcontext \? reply lanzo tekelec com \( mark lanzo \) organization tekelec inc , raleigh nc lines 12 prior article masc0442 ucsnews sdsu edu \( todd greene \) said xt call give application context \? fixing x motif program , trying use xtappaddtimeout , whose first argument app context call use give value \? xtappcontext xtwidgettoapplicationcontext \( widget \) course , using app context returned , xtappinitialize , etc best option , unless path available
tracy cs ucf edu \( tracy rene \) subject help xdm solaris2 1 summary help xdm solaris2 1 keywords solaris2 1 xdm organization university central florida distribution comp lines 7 recently read sun patch xdm solaris2 1 wondering anyone could give patch number thanks advance , tracy university central florida technical support
edu \( eric w \) subject problem running aix info sun rlogin shell lines 36 nntp posting host batman sps mot com wcl risc sps mot com \( wayne long \) writes run rs6000 's info utility remote login shell \( rlogin \) sun sparc 1 , longer type lower case info 's window prompt 's thought prob may due sun window mgr \( openlook \) incompatible aix motif application tried tvtwm also result presumably x11 key definition problem workstations system ignorance need able type lower case remote aix motif app within local openlook window manager \? wayne long internet wcl risc sps mot com 6501 william cannon drive west uucp cs texas edu ! oakhill ! risc ! wcl austin , texas 78735 8598 phone \( 512 \) 891 fax 891 3818 exact problem , figured solution run pc linux \( free unix \) x11r5 openwindows 3 0 , would appreciate solutions internet edu uucp ! rutgers ! ! batman !
christy cs concordia ca \( christy \) subject xfree86 need help organization computer science , concordia university , montreal , quebec lines 23 hi , got xfree86 running pc consensys encountered minor \( hope \) pc hooked lan want remote x applications connect x server believe command permit xhost i'm logged pc type ' , get error message saying must local machine enable access mean \? ai n't already local machine \? another problem mouse movement find mouse cursor moves extremely slow choppy make mouse cursor move accurately \? thank advance help much appreciated please send replies christy alex qc ca christy
spdc ti com \( bob shaw \) subject summary xon x11r5 nntp posting host organization ti semiconductor process design center lines 15 hi folks thanks ones replied , however , problem turned simple xresources space xterm font 10x20 removing xrdb fixed problem also , symptom , users proper capitals xterm font thanks bob
occs nlm nih gov \( bob kline \) subject x11 load network organization national library medicine x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 12 someone point direction papers \( necessarily formally conducted studies \) discussing much traffic x apps generate network , particularly comparison curses bases apps telnet \? also , x server typically buffer user keyboard input line time \? x client control , asking keystrokes immediately \? thanks advance feedback ! bob kline phoenix systems , inc occs nlm nih gov voice \( 703 \) 522
cs und nodak edu \( chuck \) subject athena widgets organization university north dakota grand forks , nd lines 5 nntp posting host cas und nodak edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 find athena widgets needed 2 4 8 thanks advance
min ac kr \( min \) subject subscribe organization internet lines 3 expert expo lcs mit edu subscribe min ac kr
beck irzr17 inf tu dresden de \( andre beck \) subject need shading program example x reply andre beck irs inf tu dresden de organization dept computer science , tu dresden , germany lines 43 nntp posting host irzr17 inf tu dresden de article tgv com , mahan tgv com \( patrick l mahan \) writes anyone know shading program based xlib public domain \? need example allocate correct colormaps program appreciate help n't know might help , 've started playing program called povray \( persistance vision raytracer \) also displays output via x windows fairly good job allocating colormap psuedo color 8 plane display got source site person retrieved david buck \( ccs carleton ca \) think original post searching existing implementations f shading triangles fairly complex plain x simpler shading models implemented already , f x3d \( ask archie get latest version \) , fast implementation possible utilizing extension , either mit shm shade image fast update window , pex opengl able shade portable x' way would shade normal ximage use xputimage \( \) , would good enough static things f fractal landscapes stuff speak povray , x previewer comes original source package good , especially speed , protocol icccm compliance look x256q , preview code 141 76 1 11 pub gfx ray misc x256q readme states points better xwindow c povray 1 0 brain inside andre' beck \( abpsoft \) mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de
netcom com \( steve davidson \) subject moolit olit organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 10 anyone know difference moolit olit \? sun support moolit \? moolit available sparcstations \? downloaded copy written eric many widgets apparently available moolit olit program available olit \? com
andre bae bellcore com \( andre \) subject authentication planned feature x11r6 \? nntp posting host broccoli bae bellcore com organization bellcore distribution na lines 15 greetings , question whether upcoming release x11r6 provide \( strong \) authentication x clients server \( \) , feature based kerberos authentication mechanism \( , , kerberos version 5 used \) \? please reply via email thanks , andre andre 1n 215 bellcore security andre bae bellcore com 444 lane data services \( 908 \) 699 , nj
garym ie utoronto ca \( gary murphy \) subject x amiga 4000 \? organization university toronto , department industrial engineering lines 12 i'm new hardware mandate port x based stereo video software anyone know experience x amiga machines \? retain x event handling , would ease plight considerably , keep motif bits , much better ! gary lawrence murphy garym virtual rose utoronto ca university toronto , industrial eng dept fax \( 416 \) 971 1373 4 creek rd , toronto , ont m5s 1a4 voice \( 416 \) 978 3776 true destination always ,
brian nosubdomain nodomain \( brian sun dallas dse \) subject help os2 presentation mgr port x organization sun microsystems lines 17 distribution world reply brian dallas central sun com nntp posting host central sun com need port several os 2 pm applications x \( openwindows motif \) , desperately need information go \( short complete rewrite tool make porting \? references \? talent hire \? even take os 2 presentation mgr emulator sun ! , replies \( except flames \) welcome ! brian brian dallas central sun com
cjhs minster york ac uk subject xt intrinsics slow popups organization department computer science , university york , england lines 36 bryan \( bryan alex com \) wrote article minster york ac uk , cjhs minster york ac uk writes application creates window button quit press button press pops dialog box strange feature program always pops dialog box much faster first time try pop 2nd time \( 3rd , 4th time \) , much slower shell waiting window manager respond positioning request window manager responding thinks window already right place exactly two components get sulk unclear information greatly received thanks clue , thanks derek ho also pointer direction one solution , due derek ho popup popped , location repeat popups unchanged previous popup slow response avoided calling first , using required location different problem also avoided making tiny alteration location popup , really change location popup \( tried double check source problem \) solutions tried successfully follows 1 \) use twm mwm rather olwm 2 \) use olwm , resource 10 3 \) reset location popup window truely changed obviously working around bug somewhere thanks chris ho stuart
ge ! severy severy uunet uu net \( severy \) subject overriding window manager focus processing organization ge information services , rockville , md lines 44 nntp posting host cs utexas edu keywords window manager focus motif working x window based application needs override window manager focus processing using x11r4 motif 1 1 currently , although also working open look future need certain circumstances prevent user switching one window application another window let 's say , example , window top window b window hierarchy normally , user clicks mouse window b brought top window hierarchy placed top window certain circumstances user clicks mouse window b need beep prevent window b raised top window research testing 've done far , appears window ordering handled window manager , case motif n't found way override default processing standard x window functions tell switching occurs focus change mapping notify events , ca n't find way tell motif make switch temporary solution 've currently come partially works detect window switch cases switch allowed , manually force formerly top window back top call beep function provides necessary functionality looks ugly windows switch places twice anyone know tell motif \( preferably window manager \) n't want window order switch actually take place \? respond either e mail posting newsgroup cheers randall randall severy uunet uunet ! ge ! severy ge information services internet ge ! severy uunet uu net 401 n washington st genie rockville , md usa phone 1 301 340
jeremy uiuc edu \( jeremy payne \) subject xt intrinsics slow popups organization pattern analysis , university illinois lines 49 article minster york ac uk , cjhs minster york ac uk writes cjhs minster york ac uk wrote help running sample problems o'reilly volume 4 , xt programming manual , chapter 3 popup dialog boxes example 3 5 , page 76 creating pop dialog box application creates window button quit press button press pops dialog box strange feature program always pops dialog box much faster first time try pop 2nd time \( 3rd , 4th time \) , much slower anyone experience sample programs , get behaviour fast response time first time slow response time 2nd time onwards \? anyone give ideas program popups time popup reasonable fast response time \? thankyou shirley thanks responded able prevent behaviour two methods 1 \) running twm rather olwm 2 \) keeping olwm , putting 10 resources suggested something window manager positioning popup window guru analyse going information , please post let us know thanks shirley ran problem ago , remember use etc realizing main widget calculate location popup , use something like xtvasetvalues popup widgets ever using calling repeatedly \( e g every time something pops \) seems slows never deep enough figure exactly though jeremy payne uiuc neuroscience program college medicine uiuc edu \( 217 \) 244
cs unc edu \( mark \) subject looking x window server frequency operations data organization university north carolina chapel hill lines 22 nntp posting host cs unc edu keywords frequency data x server architecture hello i'm currently designing architecture chip intended help speed common operations windowing system x friend designing chip final course project advanced computer architecture course taught dr fred brooks unc chapel hill feel 've got pretty solid design currently , 'd really like get ahold frequency data x windows server make effective use bit budget unfortunately , 've unable find anything sort various x faqs , x manuals 've seen anyone type frequency data , like many copy rectangle operations vs draw lines , things sort \? , barring , program records requests server \? help would appreciated many thanks , mark mark cs unc edu u north carolina , chapel hill
dbrooks osf org \( david brooks \) subject q colormaps dialog shells organization open software foundation lines 29 dyoung media mit edu \( david young \) writes applicationshell uses colormap created xcreatecolormap \( \) uses colors available 8 bit display popup dialogshell prompt user input want set primary application modal result cursor dialogshell get colormap , cursor applicationshell \( window dialogshell \) get default colormap 'd like cursor window application , get colormap think correct behavior remember default keyboard \( meaning cmap focus follows keyboard focus \) since dialog modal , mwm wo n't allow keyboard focus onto main shell , wo n't allow cmap focus either since sounds though pointer , suggest set pointer also way , cmap focus wo n't follow keyboard focus , beat path \( explicit , set cmap focus explicit also , need binding f focus color , probably mb1 \) david brooks dbrooks osf org open software foundation uunet ! osf org ! dbrooks foote
papresco undergrad math uwaterloo ca \( paul prescod \) subject x toolkits organization university waterloo lines 29 considering making reasonably large application free distribution \( probably \) going use x i'm bewildered huge number standards open systems created 've lived fairly sheltered environment tools produced athena widget set , x intrinsics xw \( \? \? \) humble opinion , look like crap n't know , however , characteristic , poor taste programmers would like app look little like mwm understand , however , mwm n't free like getting linux , interviews , n't know look get impression andrew fsf , n't know looks like either help explain toolkit mess , would much obliged free \? best \? portable \? looks nice \? resource hog \? also , happen know available linux sun , would big help thanks advance
ben oz au \( benjamin stephen kelley \) subject problems color xterm reply ben thor \( benjamin stephen kelley \) organization sbc dominguez barry ltd lines 19 recently obtained copy color xterm \( export lcs mit edu \) seeing mentioned previous article compilation , reports following undefined symbols get wmshellwidgetclass get applicationshellwidgetclass still runs sending escape sequences set colour , colour comes black text black background ideas \? anyone used program colour successfully \? anyone point colour terminal emulators \? running openwindows 3 sun sparcs running sunos 4 1 3 ben kelley ben thor oz au
barnett crd ge com \( bruce barnett \) subject title xterm reply lanzo tekelec com 's message thu , 22 apr 1993 17 35 46 gmt nntp posting host crd ge com reply barnett ge com organization ge corp r , schenectady , ny 3b1 aeon berlin de 1993apr22 gecko uucp article 1993apr22 gecko uucp lanzo tekelec com \( mark lanzo \) writes hint sun os users use usr echo instead bin echo csh 's built echo otherwise 'll embed literal esc bel characters string instead using convenient octal sequences bad idea using usr echo slower built echo execute `hostname` per shell window , read one extra file titles require executing extra programs oh yes , execute programs per system stores file next time \( ! \? hostname \) setenv hostname `hostname` endif figure generate escape , bell , echo commands without line terminator may done , variable e set executed script system \? \( \? e \) echo already set echo variables dev tty else \( f echo hostname \) source echo hostname else \( `echo n wc l` 0 \) echo built echo bsd dev tty berkeley style echo echo 'set ech echo n ' echo hostname echo set e `echo tr ' echo hostname echo set b `echo tr ' echo hostname echo 'set n ' echo hostname source echo hostname else echo built echo sysv dev tty echo 'set ech echo ' echo hostname echo 'set e 033 ' echo hostname echo 'set b 007 ' echo hostname echo 'set n c ' echo hostname source echo hostname endif using shelltool , cmdtool xterm \? duplicate aliases avoid problems \( term sun \) sun aliases alias header ' ech e l ! 1 e n ' alias ' ech e l ! 1 e n ' else \( term xterm \) alias header ' ech e 2 ! 1 b n ' alias ' ech e 1 ! 1 b n ' endif bruce barnett barnett crd ge com uunet ! ! barnett
rao cse uta edu \( rao \) subject xrn , xarchie hp 's nntp posting host cse uta edu organization computer science engineering university texas arlington lines 10 hi , need xrn xarchie hp 's \( 9000 730 , version 8 os \) , either source form , \( preferably \) executable form please suggest find , send e mail rao cse uta edu thanks advance , rao ssc
skip eco twg com \( skip \) subject pulldown menu periodically hangs application openwindows 3 0 nntp posting host eco twg com reply skip eco twg com organization wollongong group \( east coast operations \) lines 47 anyone found fix following problem \? client software sunos 4 1 1 , x11r5 server hardware sun ipc server software sunos 4 1 1 , open windows 3 0 \( w patch 37 \) motif 1 2 2 application periodically hang run openwindows 3 0 server \( xnews \) pulldown displayed button actions effect sometimes pressing return application usually looks like pulldown grabbing focus never letting go windows display continue get updated server n't hanging log another terminal kill motif application everything gets back normal application run x servers \( including mit x11r5 xsun , decwindows , tektronix x terminal \) problems obviously openwindows problem need work around since customers openwindows users tried following things 1 installing latest version openwindows server patch \( 37 \) 2 using mwm \( version 1 2 2 \) instead olwm 3 applying patch specified motif faq \( question 110 \) effect disabling point click method menu interaction \( opposed click drag method \) , screwing menu mnemonics keys seem help , still able get application hang repeat intermittent problem 'll try several times click release menu heading \( pulldown menu pop \) click release menu item repeat application hangs help would appreciated thanks advance skip skip eco twg com
ma201rs prism gatech edu \( shonkwiler r w \) subject screen problem unix xwindows solaris keywords unix xwindows solaris organization georgia institute technology lines 23 experiment sun openwindows 4 1 3 xterm window log solaris 2 x machine using rlogin ls get first character line display last column display rest line wrapped next line display log condition persists check stty , try reset effect use telnet instead rlogin n't occur try unix console n't occur \( 1 \) 's causing \? \( 2 \) avoided \? \( 3 \) terminal characteristics reset \? please send replies math gatech edu shonkwiler r w georgia institute technology , atlanta georgia , 30332 uucp ! allegra , amd , hplabs , seismo , ut ngp ! gatech ! prism ! ma201rs arpa ma201rs prism gatech edu
jigang dale ssc gov \( jigang yang \) subject menus icon labels keywords icon , motif , openlook nntp posting host dale ssc gov organization ssc lab lines 15 problem icon pixmap application run motif wrote program motif pixmap icons runs fine motif motif window manager x11r5 mwm icon pixmap show openwin olwm x11r5 olwm anybody got kind problem \? need clue example works x11r5 motif great jigang yang , jigang dale ssc gov , sscvx1 bitnet 2550 ave ms tel 214 708 dallas , tx fax 214 708
jigang dale nosubdomain nodomain \( jigang yang \) subject icon pixmap problem keywords icon , motif , openlook nntp posting host dale ssc gov organization superconducting super collider laboratory lines 15 problem icon pixmap application run motif wrote program motif pixmap icons runs fine motif motif window manager x11r5 mwm icon pixmap show openwin olwm x11r5 olwm anybody got kind problem \? need clue example works x11r5 motif great jigang yang , jigang dale ssc gov , sscvx1 bitnet 2550 ave ms tel 214 708 dallas , tx fax 214 708
gary andrew cmu edu subject x toolkits organization school computer science , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 32 nntp posting host po4 andrew cmu edu reply undergrad math uwaterloo ca excerpts netnews comp windows x 23 apr 93 x toolkits paul prescod undergrad \( 1132 \) getting linux , interviews , n't know look get impression andrew fsf , n't know looks like either 're internet site n't sheltered external tcp ip traffic , use remote andrew demo see andrew toolkit looks like remote andrew demo service network service allows run andrew toolkit applications without overhead obtaining compiling andrew software need host machine internet , need running x11 window system simple finger command allow experience atk applications firsthand 'll able compose multimedia documents , navigate interactive andrew tour , use andrew message system browse cmu 's three thousand bulletin boards newsgroups use remote andrew demo service , simply run following command machine finger help atk itc cmu edu service give instructions gary andrew consortium
kocrsv01 delcoelect com \( james f iii \) subject gui study originator organization delco electronics corp distribution na lines 33 article 1993apr23 mercury unt edu , seth ponder csci unt edu \( seth \) writes little like icons instant recipe imho system 7 undoubtedly worst gui used \( , , , x11 \) simply provide enough keyboard windows must confess quite like \( cover ears \) \) actually use without ever touch mouse stuff delete user rather making things easier always option way want , like unix x combination much 's customizable hear ! hear ! agree completely one thing ca n't stand mac interface shear determination force use mouse \( mouse breaks whole system ! \) like mouse handy cut past moving icons around , etc work , keyboard hot keys 10 20 times faster using mouse sure plus able something simple inexperienced user , long experienced \? month \? two \? \( speaking pcs moment \) n't think much ask window programmers provide menu mouse interface also look forward would like move hot keys command line interfaces , usually allows less time experienced equally applies windowing systems unix \( especially since unix least 500 powerful dos \) least 500 user unfriendly well !
jh cadre com \( joe hartley \) subject x amiga 4000 \? article fripp 1993apr23 reply jh cadre com organization cadre technologies , inc lines 28 nntp posting host xtc article ie utoronto ca , garym ie utoronto ca \( gary murphy \) writes i'm new hardware mandate port x based stereo video software anyone know experience x amiga machines \? retain x event handling , would ease plight considerably , keep motif bits , much better ! x amiga , 'll cost gfxbase inc , owned dale luck , one original amiga , sells x amiga many options available , including motif call 'em get scoop gfxbase inc 1881 drive phone 408 262 1469 milpitas , ca fax 408 262 've got connection , satisfied customer joe hartley jh cadre com whenever find cadre technologies side majority , time reform twain 222 richmond st providence , ri 1st class kilgore trout memorial \( 401 \) 351 church subgenius
jimf centerline com \( jim frost \) subject make simplest possible composite widget \? organization centerline software , inc lines 33 nntp posting host 140 239 3 202 xt programmer stretch imagination , driving crazy 's probably really simple need make composite widget nothing merely widget instance allowing additional resource name level illustrate application following widget shell widget application want following shell widget intermediate widget application widget intermediate widget name gets properties \( new values \) shell widget assume 's simple way ca n't find example documentation rather vague implementing composite widgets please respond via email help much appreciated jim frost jimf centerline com
vtaix cc vt edu \( thomas \) subject x toolkits summary get athena 3d widget set distribution inet organization virginia tech , blacksburg , va lines 9 nntp posting host vtaix cc vt edu , 3d athena widget set greatly improve look linux , shared , jump table libs , n't even recompile merely ln sf lib 3 0 lib libxaw 3 thomas
rar com \( rich \) subject file formats organization internet lines 15 xpert expo lcs mit edu hi folks , anyone give information , location information , reference material following file formats , mo dca , pcx quite appropriate place ask questions , please let know appropriate one accept apologies advance thanks help , rich systems , inc \( 908 \) 389
smd iao ford com \( steve \) subject changing colors label help organization ford motor company standard disclaimers apply lines 21 distribution world reply smd iao ford com \( steve \) nntp posting host iao ford com widget \( yes widget \) routine changes color foreground background label well , background changes alright , label text redraw guessing force redraw sent via xsendevent best way get text \? ca n't get xsendevent work right good approach , might anyone example lying around show \? 've rtfm evening find decent example ps keep getting segmentation faults xsendevent , tho values expected thanks advance stephen
egan phony25 cc utah edu \( egan f ford \) subject color xterm keywords color xterm reply egan phony25 cc utah edu hellgate utah edu organization call business systems lines 9 i'm look current patches color xterm x11r5 ro higher could someone please tell get e mail thanks egan f ford egan phony25 cc utah edu hellgate utah edu
hasty netcom com \( amancio hasty jr \) subject x toolkits organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 45 article undergrad math uwaterloo ca papresco undergrad math uwaterloo ca \( paul prescod \) writes considering making reasonably large application free distribution \( probably \) going use x i'm following packages meet criteria pd present aesthetically pleasant graphical interface users use 386bsd xview3 \( openlook \) interviews looks little like motif nice c toolkit athena widgets motif simpler better interviews enjoy technical support bull via e mail nice draw program \( uses motif \) used create graphical front end programs data format called streams feed programs ported internet machine gone use gcc 2 3 3 minimal effort ported 386bsd last least , interfaces toolkits via driver module ms windows driver module instance also , many written extensions tk tcl thus allowing powerful applications instance , tcl nm extensions tk tcl ease , combine network operations graphs , photo widget , graphical interface , file operations , database operations , etc author tcl nm mail simple network management application 80 lines long displayed various environmental parameters router wrote simple strip chart script displaying real time ip received packets seconds hope helps , amancio hasty message brought letters x number 3 amancio hasty home \( 415 \) 495 3046 ftp site work e mail hasty netcom com epa gov pub 386bsd incoming
cs buffalo edu \( suresh \) subject screen problem unix xwindows solaris organization ub lines 16 nntp posting host cs buffalo edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 shonkwiler r w \( ma201rs prism gatech edu \) wrote experiment sun openwindows 4 1 3 xterm window log solaris 2 x machine using rlogin ls get first character line display last column display rest line wrapped next line display log condition persists check stty , try reset effect condition happens tab set 8 spaces , set check suresh department computer science , suny buffalo , amherst , ny 0001 internet cs buffalo edu bitnet bitnet
mcc gc cuny edu \( george \) subject xdm decnet \? reply mahan tgv com 's message 21 apr 1993 00 59 04 0400 organization graduate school university center , c u n , new york lines 24 cannot answer questions running xdm decnet , say following defines must added site def building r5 x clients work decnet site def define define hoping helps , george opinions expressed author way represent opinions cuny graduate school , agencies personnel mcc gc cuny edu cunyvm bitnet opinions expressed author way represent opinions cuny graduate school , agencies personnel mcc gc cuny edu cunyvm bitnet
uucp \( r william steer \) subject x server nt \? organization internet lines 8 expo lcs mit edu ! xpert tron anybody generated x server windows nt \? , willing share config file tricks necessary make work \? thanks information bill steer \( 412 \) 374
mppa3 syma sussex ac uk \( alan richardson \) subject available xvertext 4 0 organization university sussex lines 25 xannounce expo lcs mit edu available xvertext 4 0 summary xvertext provides four functions draw strings angle x window \( previous versions limited vertical text \) rotation still achieved using ximages , notion rotating whole font first dropped 's new \? 've added cache keeps copy previously rotated strings thus speeding redraws get \? comp sources x \( soon \) export lcs mit edu contrib xvertext 4 0 shar z \( \) alan richardson , n't school maths physical sciences , old wise univ sussex , brighton bn1 9qh , england judas priest uk mppa3 uk ac sussex syma elsewhere mppa3 syma sussex ac uk
thor surt atd ucar edu \( richard e \) subject 1 organization national center atmospheric research lines 9 xannounce expo lcs mit edu version 4 1 export 1 tar z 've added new option determine requested cursor size ok course , server may lie ! richard thor thor atd ucar edu med national center atmospheric research sole box 3000 boulder , co 80307 3000 med 303 497 2057 inn
dcc dcs ed ac uk \( david \) subject \( non chunky pixel \) cfb \? \? \? \? organization department computer science , university edinburgh lines 17 pd version cfb , pd server stuff , colour frame buffer implementation works mode , e screen memory grouped bit 0 every pixel , bit 1 , etc beast know moment gfxbase server commodore amiga , commercial n't know wrote cfb , suspect please respond email , n't read group many thanks dave david , department computer science , university edinburgh janet dcc ed dcs internet dcc dcs ed ac uk ip talk dcc 129 215 160 2 work rm , king 's , w mains rd , edinburgh 3jz 031 650 home , 39 , , edinburgh tel 031 452
netnews jhuapl edu \( dave \) subject xwd segmentation fault keywords xwd x11 organization jhu applied physics laboratory lines 22 planning use following pipe move display data system color hardcopy unit xwd xwud display hostname 0 0 tested simple windows like openwindows file manager , worked fine , tried complex \( larger \) image , xwd part blew segmentation fault tried without pipe , xwd 's output file used file input xwud got error xwud guess , seems like 's running memory , happened sparc 10 64 megs , 128 meg swap space , one user minimal activity file 3 mb xwd xwud supplied sun openwindows 3 0 distribution believe corresponds x11 r4 ideas \? thanks advance dave johns hopkins university applied physics laboratory \( 410 \) 792 aplcomm jhuapl edu
cac washington edu \( martin hunt \) subject announcing tcpview motif based tcp ip protocol analyzer organization uw networks distributed computing lines 89 keywords protocol analyzer tcp ip xannounce expo lcs mit edu tcpview result several problems uw several network general heavily used help debug problems several hundred good tools , 1 \) heavy , 2 \) hard find need one , 3 \) limited software expandibility , 4 \) difficult use upload data analysis , 5 \) cannot remotely operated , 6 \) cannot resolve names , requiring much manual manipulation name table also sometimes use tcpdump , found 1 \) difficult people , 2 \) enough information many protocols , 3 \) could used interactively , 4 \) could handle tcp streams 5 \) could read files however , tcpdump reasonable job decoding large number protocols , could easily modified tcpview attempt resolve problems adding motif interface tcpdump expanding features tcpview tested decstation 5000 sun 4 ultrix 4 2 sunos 4 1 respectively work systems tcpdump compiles cc gcc dec sun build tcpview need motif 1 1 better following files available anonymous ftp ftp cac washington edu pub networking tcpview 1 0 tar z tcpview tcpdump source code tcpview 1 0 sun tar z sun4 binaries tcpview 1 0 dec tar z dec mips ultrix 4 2 binaries tcpview adds tcpdump easier interface enhanced protocol decoding hex display frame capture based time , number frames , user interrupt show ethernet addresses manufacturer 's name ethernet address host table easily follow stream , highlighting order frames send tcp data external file filter additional processing changes tcpdump 2 2 1 new features reads writes network general files used ' r' , file type automatically detected read \( use \) file hex format changed new time options added options added allow viewing processing data tcp packets bugs fixed relative tcp sequence numbers \( flag \) new flags r read file usually needed , except reading stdin ttt prints delta times prints times relative first frame w write save file \( use w \) x print frame \( minus link level header \) format sample output 16 36 23 jeff cac washington edu 1285 nic funet fi ftp 0 0 \( 0 \) win 0000 45 00 00 28 8a 98 00 00 3c 06 7c 9c 80 5f 70 02 e \( p 80 d6 06 64 05 05 00 15 5b 19 4a 00 00 00 00 00 j 50 02 40 00 4e 13 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 p n x print tcp data format \( used z \) z write tcp data stdout \( use eliminate \) z write frames tcp data stdout martin hunt cac washington edu networks distributed computing university washington martin hunt cac washington edu networks distributed computing university washington
crd co jp \( \) subject see wchar nntp posting host emu distribution comp organization electric corporation , tokyo , japan lines 137 developed toolkit running x window system toolkit languages based x11r5 's i18n facility know , 2 kinds i18n implementation mit 's x11r5 release xsi ximp original implementation toolkit uses xsi toolkit manages character 's size based font management system order , t' typed character strings must character sets means one wchar type compound string ascii kanji mixed , example , given , element wchar array must checked corresponding character set based bit layout application environment 's locale case locale , wchar character classified either iso8859 1 , need function function must check many characters top character set character set could find public x11r5 function inevitably , used xsi 's internal functions construct function following source code function \( \) ' i18n h may look like c code , really c id i18n h , v 1 1 1992 01 21 12 05 24 exp ifndef i18n h define i18n h include x11 xlib h extern int \( const wchar wc str , int wc len , char buf , int , int scanned len , char charset \) extern \( const wchar wc str \) extern \( const wchar wc \) endif i18n h i18n cc id i18n cc , v 1 1 1992 01 21 12 05 05 exp include stdlib h include x11 h include xm xm h include i18n h extern c include x11 wchar h define xwcdecomposeglyphcharset xxx xwcdecomposeglyphcharset define xmbfscs xxx xmbfscs define xmbctidtocsid xxx xmbctidtocsid include h undef xwcdecomposeglyphcharset undef xmbfscs undef xmbctidtocsid extern int xwcdecomposeglyphcharset \( xlocale , const wchar , int , char , int , int , int \) extern charset xmbfscs \( xlocale , \) extern xmbctidtocsid \( xlocale , \) int \( const wchar wc str , int wc len , char buf , int buf len , int scanned len , char charset \) xlocale xlocale \( \) int int status charset status xwcdecomposeglyphcharset \( xlocale , wc str , wc len , buf , buf len , scanned len , \) \( status success \) xmbfscs \( xlocale , xmbctidtocsid \( xlocale , \) \) charset \( \) \? cs name null else charset null return status included file , h , also xsi internal copied file toolkit directory compiled serious issue occured tried compile toolkit application hp machine os version hp 01 tried link application based toolkit , link errors occured saying following functions missing xmbctidtocsid \( code \) xmbfscs \( code \) xwcdecomposeglyphcharset \( code \) \( code \) used mit release version x11r5 xsi implementation hp 0 ran applications successfully one reasons use xsi hp release hp 's x11r5 os 9 0 way know hp 's r5 would implemented hoped xsi 's popularity used internal functions hp 's linker complains xsi internal functions implemented observe hp 's libx11 , used ximp implementation sure used mit 's vanilla ximp version version ximp therefore , finding counter part functions mit 's ximp xsi seem lead us solution question goal know construct function like \( \) ' listed function check character set element wchar type strings depending locales \? public function , perfect even , want use internal functions hp 's x11r5 mit 's r5 order render t' type string , must machinery judge character sets proper fonts selected string way find without hp 's x11r5 source files want know use goal help comments would highly appreciated also appreciate anyone tell ximp treating around area even hp 's implementation thank crd co jp electric corporation open systems laboratory \( 52 \)
mike hopper virginia edu \( michael chapman \) subject looking filemanager x11r5 organization itc uva community access unix internet project lines 12 article 1993apr21 atlastele com brians atlastele com \( brian sheets \) writes anyone file manager runs unix x11r5 \? \? working looking , really n't anything quality 've seen though , i'm seriously considering writing one mike hopper acs virginia edu raise taxes middle class unknown
tim kimba catt citri edu au \( tim liddelow \) subject installing mit x11r5 apollo organization catt centre citri , melbourne , australia lines 14 apollo gurus let know experiences building mit x11r5 , without gcc 2 3 3 particular , anything watch thanks advance tim tim liddelow \( \) fork \( \) systems programmer centre advanced technology telecommunications brain bad day citri , melbourne , australia internet tim kimba catt citri edu au phone 61 3 282 2455 fax 61 3 282
organization ministry education , computer center netnews system v2 3 twnmoe10 bitnet subject change default visual lines 5 workstation uses pseudocolor \( id , 255 colors \) default visual start x different visual default \?
mcl ucsb edu \( \) subject x bitmap postscript lines 10 hey folks , course develope x window application , encountered problem could transform x window bitmap postscript files \? library routines source code call job \? thank advance p email reply please seldom read newsgroup \)
toml boulder parcplace com \( tom lastrange \) subject forcing window manager accept specific coordinates window organization parcplace boulder lines 29 article cs columbia edu ethan cs columbia edu \( ethan solomita \) writes article bading athene cs tu berlin de bading cs tu berlin de \( tobias 'doping' bading \) writes know mwm resource specify positions used border window user window maybe window managers similar options another way figure difference user window position window manager decoration window position subtract positions use xquerytree remember window manager decorations window parent window unfortunately , figure decoration width height window mapped way another way would use find relative frame , find window 's corner really 've said , 's reliable way find size window manager decoration window , ca n't assume window 're window holds window manager decoration may several layers windows multiple xquerytree 's get root work cases , 's guarantee outside decoration window root window display \( tvtwm \) tom lastrange toml boulder parcplace com
engin umich edu \( eric michael \) subject real time data display tool organization university michigan engineering , ann arbor lines 12 distribution world nntp posting host engin umich edu originator engin umich edu hi , i'm looking x windows tool display data \( 2d plot \) real time couple different signals anybody know gem \? please email read group often thanks much ! eric caen engin umich edu
clay cs scarolina edu \( f rodney clay \) subject slider position vertical scrollbars summary slider position list widget 's vertical scrollbar organization usc department computer science distribution comp lines 10 need help positioning slider list widget 's horizontal scrollbar displaying full path selected file list widget horizontal 's slider defaults left side list widget however , need slider right side user see file name selected know 's possible , files displayed file selection dialog box , slider right side thanking help advance , rodney f clay clay cs scarolina edu
rao cse uta edu \( rao \) subject xrn , xarchie hp 9000 730 asap nntp posting host cse uta edu organization computer science engineering university texas arlington lines 10 hi , need xrn xarchie hp 's \( 9000 730 , version 8 os \) , either source form , \( preferably \) executable form please suggest find , send e mail rao cse uta edu thanks advance , rao ssc
matt centerline com \( matt landau \) subject asynchronous x windows \? organization centerline software , inc lines 45 distribution inet nntp posting host 140 239 1 32 ellis nova ellis nova gmi edu \( r stewart ellis \) writes anyway use x windows async line \? clearly could use x x window , n't x window system , x11 , x number designations accepted x consortium fact , man x pretty much x11 machine tell x consortium requests following names used referring software x x window system x version 11 x window system , version 11 x11 thing x windows x window , despite repeated misuse forms trade rags probably tells something much trust trade rags ca n't even get name window system right , one trust anything else say \? regard dialup x11 implementations , several buy serial x11 terminals couple companies , including ncd \( fact , i'm ncd running x11 serial lines across 14 4 connection \) ncd also sells software package provides xremote \( ncd 's implementation serial x11 \) pc 's may software packages available x11r6 supposed include standardized compression scheme running x11 low speed connections 's called low bandwidth x \( lbx \) , based improved versions techniques used ncd 's xremote seems likely lbx released consortium standard , several vendors willing supply implementations various sorts hardware followups directed comp windows x matt landau waiting flash enlightenment matt centerline com blood thunder
herzog eng sun com \( brian herzog sunsoft product engineering \) subject xsun running sparcclassic organization sun lines 18 distribution world nntp posting host article tom rz uni passau de rank uni passau de \( christian rank \) writes 've installed x11r5 patches solaris 2 1 sparcstation lx sparcclassic pool lx , x11r5 runs fine , classics , giving command startx , xsun prints following messages warning cg3 mmap ca n't map dummy space ! mapping device address exits anybody know fix problem \? i'm guessing , 'd guess x11r5 expects cg3 1152x900 resolution , version cg3 sparcclassic 1024x768 disclaimer represent sunsoft , inc , sun microsystems , inc , etc , etc brian herzog , sunsoft herzog eng sun com ! sun ! eng ! herzog
mike hopper virginia edu \( michael chapman \) subject tektronix organization itc uva community access unix internet project lines 6 remember seeing something x distribution mentioning support tektronix terminal x server accurate \? mike hopper acs virginia edu raise taxes middle class unknown
rj rainbow berlin de \( robert \) subject tvtwm xsetroot , x11r5 sparc 10 keyboard lines 26 nntp posting host rainbow berlin de mime version 1 0 content type text plain charset iso 8859 1 content transfer encoding 8bit barr pop psu edu \( david barr \) writes install sunkbd patch \? 's contrib directory export keys keyboard send events properly , except following end , , 6 key cluster n't recognized even compose key works \( though ca n't seem get composed characters xterm get passed \) anyone fix last two \? fix table x11r5 mit server ddx sun use xmodmap \( 1 \) put stty setenv lc ctype iso 8859 1 setenv login first prevents stripping bit 7 second sets locale third makes less \( 1 \) show character instead octal representation rj robert rj rainbow berlin , gmd , cs tu berlin de ou ou berlin p gmd dbp c de
dick bart starnet com \( dick montgomery \) subject x window pc organization starnet communications corp lines 23 briefly , starnet communications four pc x server packages micro x lite 75 00 includes integrated tcp ip , runs 640kb , arcs \( \) micro x 150 00 includes integrated tcp ip , runs dos , shape extension interface novell tcp ip micro x dos 345 00 \( 225 ea 5 pack \) includes integrated tcp ip , runs dos , shape extension interface novell tcp ip , ftp 's pc tcp , pc nfs micro x win 425 00 \( 300 ea 5 pack \) includes tcp ip stack utilities interface ftp 's pc tcp , sun 's pc nfs , winsock information contact starnet communications fax 1 408 739 lawrence voice 1 408 739 santa clara , ca 95051 e mail starnet com
ces cwru edu \( \) subject get 24bit color xview frames \? organization case western reserve university lines 55 distribution world nntp posting host ces cwru edu hi ! using xview 3 0 sparc ipx openwindows along board parallax enables use 24 bit color problems utilizing 24 bit color would greatly appreciate help matter use xview create frame create canvas inside use display live video video input 24 bit color problem top level frame created frame \( frame \) xv create \( null , frame , null \) seems depth 8 propagated canvas would like know set depth frame 24 bits tried using following xlib code xvisualinfo visual info int depth 24 colormap colormap xsetwindowattributes unsigned long valuemask 0 window win xv opaque frame win xv get \( frame , xv xid \) \( display , screen , depth , truecolor , visual info \) far good colormap xcreatecolormap \( display , win , visual info , \) dies badmatch error \( colormap colormap valuemask cwcolormap \( display , w , valuemask , \) \( display , win , colormap \) using completely wrong approach \? possible set depth colormap window created xview \? wrong \? thanks advance help get would prefer response via email although post newsgroup also okay thanks , computer science engg , case western reserve univ , cleveland , oh 44106 fairchild road , 2 , cleveland , oh 44106 \( 216 \) 368 res \( 216 \) 791 , email alpha ces cwru edu
ruts ccc amdahl com subject compiling x programs reply ruts ccc amdahl com \( \) distribution usa organization amdahl corporation , sunnyvale ca lines 53 hi guys , long time since wrote program using x trying get familiarize x would appreciate help regarding following problem trying compile simple x program sun running sunos 4 1 2 using cc ex ex c lxaw lxmu lxt lxext lx11 lm getting error ld undefined symbol get wmshellwidgetclass get applicationshellwidgetclass simple program tried compile given include stdio h include x11 intrinsic h include x11 h include x11 xaw form h main \( argc , argv \) int argc char argv widget toplevel widget frame toplevel xtinitialize \( ex , ex , null , 0 , argc , argv \) frame xtcreatemanagedwidget \( form , , toplevel , null , 0 \) xtrealizewidget \( toplevel \) xtmainloop \( \) got error tried build using imakefile provided software compiled x programs \( machine , machines running sunos 4 0 x11 r4 \) get error message anybody tell getting messages would appreciate email responses ruts ccc amdahl com thanks anand
teal csn org \( scott \) subject hypercard unix nntp posting host teal csn org organization colorado supernet , inc lines 35 queloz bernina ethz ch \( ronald queloz \) writes hi netlanders , anybody know something like macintosh hypercard unix platform \? several products might investigate 've got 20 , 000 per seat high end hardware , gain momentum might good choice n't compatible hypercard , similar architecture \( way functionality \) n't contact information , recently purchased sybase n't hard find 're running news sparc , check \( turing com \) uses postscript scripting language good need lots display oriented scripting , good non programmers 995 , last heard might also look product metacard 're alpha testing direct importing hypercard stacks \( 've even made test release available anonymous ftp \) , 're obviously closest functionality metacard runs unix workstations costs 495 email info metacard com details scott thanks advance ron scott 303 447 remember better look , metacard com 'll see
megan cs uq oz au \( megan \) subject regression testing x summary info required capture playback testing tools x clients keywords x regression reply megan cs uq oz au lines 10 'd appreciate feedback capture playback tools use x clients pulled public domain appears set test x servers x clients comparisons comments regression testing tools would great particularly , , , sri 's , megan megan cs uq oz au
mahan tgv com \( patrick l mahan \) subject need shading program example x organization internet lines 35 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu beck irzr17 inf tu dresden de , xpert expo lcs mit edu think original post searching existing implementations f shading triangles fairly complex plain x simpler shading models implemented already , f x3d \( ask archie get latest version \) , fast implementation possible utilizing extension , either mit shm shade image fast update window , pex opengl able shade portable x' way would shade normal ximage use xputimage \( \) , would good enough static things f fractal landscapes stuff speak povray , x previewer comes original source package good , especially speed , protocol icccm compliance look x256q , preview code 141 76 1 11 pub gfx ray misc x256q readme states points better xwindow c povray 1 0 version using x256q code instead default x windows code currently running dec alpha running openvms axp far pretty impressed side effect x256q requires xstdcmap best run work , show stopper patrick l mahan tgv window washer mahan tgv com waking person unnecessarily considered lazarus long capital crime first offense , notebooks lazarus long
mahan tgv com \( patrick l mahan \) subject tektronix organization internet lines 15 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu mike hopper virginia edu , xpert expo lcs mit edu remember seeing something x distribution mentioning support tektronix terminal x server accurate \? xterm supports emulation patrick l mahan tgv window washer mahan tgv com waking person unnecessarily considered lazarus long capital crime first offense , notebooks lazarus long
dcr mail ast cam ac uk \( derek c richardson \) subject allocated colors nntp posting host ioas09 ast cam ac uk reply dcr mail ast cam ac uk organization institute astronomy , cambridge lines 20 anyone tell get total number color cells allocated default colormap \? e g colormap \( mydisplay , \) maximum number allocated cells given \( mydisplay , \) , general number cells actually allocated much less , depending color requirements windows currently place 'd like way determine number thanks advance ! derek derek c richardson tel \( 0223 \) 337548 x 37501 institute astronomy fax \( 0223 \) 337523 cambridge , u k cb3 0ha e mail dcr mail ast cam ac uk
blkbox com \( marc kraker newman \) subject unsubscribe blkbox comm organization internet lines 5 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu please unsubscribe blkbox com user become inactive wish participation mailing list marc newman com
iris smith cup portal com subject drawing lines \( inverse xor \) organization portal system \( tm \) 1993apr21 alf uib drand spinner osf org lines 3 also set foreground xor foreground background colors xsetforeground \( , fg bg \) works great \( least truecolor visuals \)
tim hssc scarolina edu \( tim white \) subject x11 load network organization usc department computer science lines 18 occs nlm nih gov \( bob kline \) writes someone point direction papers \( necessarily formally conducted studies \) discussing much traffic x apps generate network , particularly comparison curses bases apps telnet \? also , x server typically buffer user keyboard input line time \? x client control , asking keystrokes immediately \? thanks advance feedback ! ncd excellent document titled host loading considerations x environment received copy emailing support ncd com may help tim white university south carolina tim otis hssc scarolina edu humanities social sciences laboratory \( 803 \) 777 columbia , c
mike hopper virginia edu \( michael chapman \) subject tektronix organization itc uva community access unix internet project lines 14 article tgv com mahan tgv com \( patrick l mahan \) writes remember seeing something x distribution mentioning support tektronix terminal x server accurate \? xterm supports emulation talking using tek terminal x display possible write x server far tell , i'm asking already one mike hopper acs virginia edu raise taxes middle class unknown
proberts informix com \( paul roberts \) subject mask left button \? organization informix software , inc lines 32 originator proberts moose posting friend whose news service usual forward replies , want try reply directly , try return path uunet ! ese lmsc lockheed com ! pr event handler working buttonpressmask like xtaddeventhandler \( plot data display , buttonpressmask , false , show mouse position , plot data \) would like able two types actions one occur left mouse , right , perhaps one middle event handler would look like xtaddeventhandler \( plot data display , left buttonpressmask , false , show left mouse position , plot data \) xtaddeventhandler \( plot data display , right buttonpressmask , false , show right mouse position , plot data \) however n't know make left buttonpressmask n't seem one event mask lists hand \( although looked promising \) references also mentioned using two mask events use two masks \? would want case \? help would appreciated thanks ,
magnus acs ohio state edu \( keith \) subject remote tektronics emulation nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 17 hello , looking someone help remote login , via modem ethernet , new silicon graphics iris machines log vt100 terminal regardless end communication software , kermit , supports tek emulation x windows manual lists xterm appropriate command change terminal type try reponse open thanx advance keith keith man , let 's go crimes magnus acs ohio state edu yeah , lets get , repo man
hdr ross com \( henry reynolds \) subject x11r5 sun4 110 cg2 comes mono nntp posting host organization ross technology , inc austin , tx lines 14 4 100 prints following message 's framebuffer cgtwo0 vec cgtwo0 sun 3 color board , fast read anybody know story \? impulse item instead \? henry reynolds hdr ross com hdr cactus org fone \( 512 \) 892 ross technology , inc fax \( 512 \) 892 5316 hwy 290 west suite 500 austin , tx 78735
freenet carleton ca \( terry maclean \) subject modify key map \? organization national capital freenet , ottawa , canada lines 35 hello folks , i'm seeing errors try modify key map mwm invalid accelerator , line x 've added line start file line starts mwm looks like following xmodmap mwm think problem conflict function keys f1 f7 already assigned functions \( e g move , minimize , etc \) odd thing n't see errors run xmodmap xterm anyone suggest way modify key map , specifically f1 f7 mwm \( motif window manager \) complain realize bit stupid , time implement , time learn implement terry
r0506048 \( chun hung lin \) subject xman source nntp posting host csie ntu edu tw reply r0506048 csie ntu edu tw organization communication multimedia lab , ntu , taiwan x newsreader tin 1 1 pl3 lines 15 jlong berkeley edu \( john long \) writes get xman source \? would like get binaries xman hp 9000 700 , would settle source try xport lcs mit edu , contrib chun hung lin \( l \) r0506048 csie ntu edu tw communication multimedia lab dept comp sci info eng national taiwan university , taipei , taiwan , r c
engr latech edu \( \) subject faq comp windows x organization louisiana tech university lines 6 nntp posting host engr latech edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 faq list programming x windows \? thankx info bye
syma sussex ac uk \( nightline \) subject editres pie \( \) wm keywords editres twm failure organization university sussex brighton lines 14 hi , looking advice suggestions problem i'm mit x11r5 's editres , particular twm variants start , 9 times 10 \( always \) editres wo n't grab widget tree running ncd \( decwindows \) xterms , i'm told fixed r5 \( r4 \) xdm installed ok , tried running sun , running real r5 , network get widget tree , 's always icon anybody know patches \( \) twm \( b \) editres look \? thanks , k
yuri physics watt ac uk \( yuri \) subject repost xview slider organization internet lines 37 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert xpert expo lcs mit edu hi xperts , repost \( one responded desperate yell 8 \( ca n't believe xview wizards 8 \) i'm using sliders xview apps , usually numeric field seem control length field apps appears long enough keep several characters , cannot keep even maximum value set panel max value ! understand , panel value display length , controls number characters displayed text items , n't work case slider , despite fact panel h contains following bit panel text item , panel numeric text item , panel slider item panel text item attributes panel notify level panel attr \( attr , 152 \) , panel value display length panel attr \( attr int , 182 \) , gives hint attribute used sliders 1 \) setting attribute gives nothing , 2 \) xv attribute gives warning bad attribute , returns value 0 strange thing dec 's port xview gives plenty space text fields , sun 's xview someone share experience managing sliders xview , clear problem \? help much appreciated yuri yuri uk ac hw phy
roeber vxcrna cern ch \( frederick roeber \) subject 24 bit static color clients like \? reply roeber cern ch organization cern european organization nuclear research lines 24 i'm writing x server video generation equipment hardware truecolor yuv space x terms 24 bit static color visual would really like server present static visual , i'm sure acceptable x clients three problems see 1 \) colormap , though huge , static 2 \) pixels would 3 bytes wide 3 \) hardware actually lives yuv space , translation rgb yuv introduce rounding error server guy client guy , ask limitations thwart many x clients \? x stuff floating around blithely accept 're given \? could write server also present pseudocolor visual , e g , 8 bits , 'd rather avoid necessary know absolutes , 'd appreciate hearing people 's opinions suggestions thanks ! frederick g roeber cern european center nuclear research e mail roeber cern ch roeber caltech edu work 41 22 767 31 80 r mail cern ppe , 1211 geneva 23 , switzerland home 33 50 20 82 99
pjaques camborne school mines ac uk \( paul jaques \) subject polygon raster converter required organization internet lines 12 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu anybody tell know obtain source code polygon filling algorithm , graphics mailing lists may able help thanks , paul paul jaques systems engineer , camborne school mines , , , , cornwall e mail pjaques csm ac uk tel \( 0209 \) fax \( 0209 \)
nicholas ibmpcug co uk \( nicholas young \) subject graphics editor required x disclaimer views expressed article author alone may represent views ibm pc user group organization ibm pc user group , uk lines 21 see subject opportunity sales people \( persons \? entities \? \) looking commercial pd graphics editor fairly limited abilities runs x preferably uses motif widgets must run hp ux version 9 , either without pex extension sort things want simple drawing , resizing moving objects lines , rectangles text bounding rectangle operations sufficient object selection ideally also allow creation placement complex objects widgets \( e g text entry fields labels \) , mandatory anyone animal \? , please mail details including price \( especially run time licensing since must included product \) alternatively , send logica , 68 newman street , london w1 , including technical info please pd stuff , effort could put porting thanks help , nicholas young nicholas young \( 44 71 637 9111 \)
memo ericsson se \( 353 1 \) subject help organization internet lines 5 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu received 353 1 93 04 26 12 28 vax xpert expo lcs mit edu inet mail user vax internet help
marc aip org \( marc wiener \) subject core dump organization american institute physics lines 12 getting memory fault core dump whenever end motif session ultrix 4 3 , running dec 5000 240 core file leads us believe 's anyone know \? marc marc wiener marc aip org american institute physics 500 blvd voice \( 516 \) 576 woodbury , ny fax \( 516 \) 349
rchui nswc wo nswc navy mil \( raymond chui \) subject question found faq reply rchui opal nswc navy mil organization dd white oak det lines 52 created pixmap drawable window , used xdrawline \( \) function line width 300 p1 height 300 p3 p2 created pixmap drawable window size 300x300 draw line p1 \( x1 270 , y1 100 \) p2 \( x2 500 , y2 800 \) question , dose xdrawline function finger correct p3 \( x3 y3 \) \? calculate x3 y3 x3 300 art tan \( \( 800 100 \) \( 500 270 \) \) 71 81 degrees y3 100 x3 tan \( \) 100 300 tan \( 71 81 \) 198 58 \( integer \) 199 prove xdrawline \( \) give right x3 , y3 \? please n't ask n't created pixmap , n't wan thanks advance ! raymond h chui nswc new hampshire ave silver spring , md 5000 u voice 1 \( 301 \) 394 3807 ext 45 fax 1 \( 301 \) 394 4483 email rchui opal nswc navy mil , ' \) \) ' \) \) ' , , \( \( \( \) \) \) \( \) \) \) \( \( \( \( \( \( '
rchui nswc wo nswc navy mil \( raymond chui \) subject question found faq reply rchui opal nswc navy mil organization dd white oak det lines 72 comp windows x article 1993apr26 relay nswc navy mil , rchui nswc wo nswc navy mil \( raymond chui \) writes please calculation please see correct calculation sorry ! created pixmap drawable window , used xdrawline \( \) function line width 300 p1 height 300 p3 p2 created pixmap drawable window size 300x300 draw line p1 \( x1 270 , y1 100 \) p2 \( x2 500 , y2 800 \) question , dose xdrawline function finger correct p3 \( x3 y3 \) \? calculate x3 y3 x3 300 art tan \( 500 270 \) \( 800 100 \) \) 18 19 degrees y3 100 \( 300 270 \) tan \( \) 191 29 191 integer prove xdrawline \( \) give right x3 , y3 \? please n't ask n't created pixmap , n't wan thanks advance ! raymond h chui nswc new hampshire ave silver spring , md 5000 u voice 1 \( 301 \) 394 3807 ext 45 fax 1 \( 301 \) 394 4483 email rchui opal nswc navy mil , ' \) \) ' \) \) ' , , \( \( \( \) \) \) \( \) \) \) \( \( \( \( \( \( ' raymond h chui nswc new hampshire ave silver spring , md 5000 u voice 1 \( 301 \) 394 3807 ext 45 fax 1 \( 301 \) 394 4483 email rchui opal nswc navy mil , ' \) \) ' \) \) ' , , \( \( \( \) \) \) \( \) \) \) \( \( \( \( \( \( '
beck irzr17 inf tu dresden de \( andre beck \) subject title xterm organization dept computer science , tu dresden , germany lines 14 distribution world reply andre beck irs inf tu dresden de nntp posting host irzr17 inf tu dresden de yet , escape sequences speaking non standard dangerous fact , ansi compliant sequence parser hangs strange esc sequences instead compatible dsc \? brain inside andre' beck \( abpsoft \) mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de
afielden cbnewsb cb att com \( andrew j fielden \) subject x interactive performance keywords benchmark organization lines 21 recently got ncd x terminal evaluate running xremote serial line wanted get measurement response time , wrote small xlib program simply creates window , maps sends first expose event program times delay sending event , receiving thought simplest way test client x server round trip delays 's similar concept ping \( 8c \) program valid test perform \? 've also tried program , available ftp uu net , server graphics operations , wanted get measure acceptable interactive response time anyone got ideas subject \? thanks andrew \( afielden mlsma att com \) andrew fielden network systems uk tel 44 666 information systems group \( sun support \) email afielden mlsma att com
michel crnsu1 in2p3 fr \( \) subject creating gif file organization internet lines 12 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu looking x client convert xwd bitmap file gif file use macintosh thanks michel crnsu1 in2p3 fr michel gti bp 20 strasbourg cedex \( france \) phone \( 33 \) 88 28 62 76
ssdc ssdc sterling com \( richard lee \) subject pulldown menu periodically hangs application openwindows 3 0 organization sterling software \( vienna , va \) lines 26 distribution inet nntp posting host ssdc ssdc sterling com x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 skip \( skip eco twg com \) wrote anyone found fix following problem \? client software sunos 4 1 1 , x11r5 server hardware sun ipc server software sunos 4 1 1 , open windows 3 0 \( w patch 37 \) motif 1 2 2 application periodically hang run openwindows 3 0 server \( xnews \) pulldown displayed button actions effect sometimes pressing return application usually looks like pulldown grabbing focus never letting go windows display continue get updated server n't hanging log another terminal kill motif application everything gets back normal application run x servers \( including mit x11r5 xsun , decwindows , tektronix x terminal \) problems obviously openwindows problem need work around since customers openwindows users seen problem using sparcstation 10 , solaris 2 1 , ow 3 1 case , happens far often periodically help \?
andreas uni hannover de \( andreas \) subject mail organization university hannover , frg x newsreader tin 1 1 pl4 lines 12 hello , i'm looking x \? andreas andreas andreas uni hannover de live yellow subroutine andreas han de beatles
hpfcso fc hp com \( greg hughes \) subject looking r5 xserver hp9000 385 organization hewlett packard , fort collins , co , usa lines 3 update 385 hp ux 9 0 get r5 server libraries greg hughes fc hp com
nl \( \) subject creating gif file lines 29 organization delft hydraulics article crnsu1 in2p3 fr michel crnsu1 in2p3 fr \( \) writes path nl ! sun4nl ! mcsun ! uunet ! gatech ! enterpoop mit edu ! internet ! news mail gateway michel crnsu1 in2p3 fr \( \) newsgroups comp windows x subject creating gif file date 26 apr 1993 10 43 28 0400 organization internet lines 12 sender news athena mit edu message id crnsu1 in2p3 fr nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu looking x client convert xwd bitmap file gif file use macintosh thanks michel crnsu1 in2p3 fr michel gti bp 20 strasbourg cedex \( france \) phone \( 33 \) 88 28 62 76 look pbmplus package everything could ever ask converting pbm almost format \( gif , tga , pcx etc \) arno
klute tommy informatik uni dortmund de \( rainer klute \) subject , newsgroup dead \? organization cs department , dortmund university , germany lines 21 distribution world nntp posting host tommy informatik uni dortmund de article tgv com , mahan tgv com \( patrick l mahan \) writes 've gotten posts group last couple days \( recently added feed list \) , group near death \? seen mailing list side , i'm getting right amount traffic seen point view , get far much articles keep lucky scan subjects time time dipl inform rainer klute r b immer richtig beraten univ dortmund , irb postfach 500500 \) tel 49 231 755 4663 w4600 dortmund 50 fax 49 231 755 2386 new address june 30th univ dortmund , 44221 dortmund
epstein trwacs fp trw com \( jeremy epstein \) subject wanted x security posting organization trw systems division , fairfax va lines 20 days ago posting group andrea winkler titled x security x technical conference one instructors tutorial unfortunately , system purged message chance see , n't andrea 's email address someone andrea 's address posting , would really appreciate 'd forward ! thanks jeremy jeremy epstein internet epstein trwacs fp trw com trusted x research group voice 1 703 803 trw systems division fairfax virginia jeremy epstein internet epstein trwacs fp trw com trusted x research group voice 1 703 803 trw systems division fairfax virginia
oleg sdd comsat com \( oleg \) subject hp 2623a graphics terminal emulators summary need application emulate hp 2623a graphics terminal x keywords graphics terminal emulator organization sdd , comsat labs , , md lines 6 would grateful anyone knows x windows application would emulate hp 2623a graphics manner similar way tek graphics windows implemented xterm thanks help oleg \( oleg sdd comsat com \)
wilfred hansen cs cmu edu subject andrew \( x toolkits \) organization carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 40 distribution inet nntp posting host po5 andrew cmu edu reply undergrad math uwaterloo ca excerpts netnews comp windows x 23 apr 93 x toolkits paul prescod undergrad \( 1132 \) get impression andrew fsf , n't know looks like either andrew user interface system supported , maintained , enhanced , distributed andrew consortium , carnegie mellon distribution terms x consortium , gnu public license thus anyone commercially exploit andrew code without restriction \( encourage membership , however , defer universal release latest versions consortium members opportunity explore new capabilities \) se auis looks like , try remote demo need x server \( r5 best \) machine linked internet give command finger help atk itc cmu edu instructions note demo version use motif look feel scrollbar , one available use demo changing option preferences file starting new editor andrew toolkit component auis ideal want build applications using compound documents andrew 's major feature architecture recursive embedding objects equation table figure text , example architecture extends areas usually found toolkits , including file stream formats , cut paste , printing andrew also provides commonly requested applications word processor , spreadsheet , drawing editor , font editor \( latter two version 5 2 generally released tape december \) fred hansen director , andrew consortium
arana es \( jose luis arana \) subject x graphics accelerators organization internet lines 7 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu obtain public information \( documentation sources \) xservers implemented graphics processors \? specially interested xservers developed texas instruments graphic processor please send answer arana es
koala inria fr \( le hors \) subject xpm 3 2g available keywords xpm organization koala project , bull research france lines 44 export lcs mit edu directory contrib , avahi inria fr directory pub xpm xpm 3 2f 3 2g patch z xpm 3 2g tar z copyright 1990 93 groupe bull see license conditions file copyright history user visible changes 3 2g \( 93 04 26 \) enhancements much faster close colors compressed files handles gnu 's gzip \( z \) format added attribute ability specify visual 's colors use \( ie 's possible read pixmap color visual , use colors specified monochrome \) added mono , , grey color options demonstrate attribute jason patterson edu au bugs corrected fixed bug none pixel stopped mask generation minor svr4 defines string h fixed annoying bug related read write color cells fixed minor bug color value pixel overloading manual updated include new red green blue attributes jason patterson edu au top imakefile missing depend target imakefile fixed l lib set standard library location vivek khera khera cs duke edu lib h defines bcopy vms \( required recent versions vms \) j daniel smith ann arbor applicon slb com lib imakefile n't work x11r4 le hors sophia inria fr bull research france , koala project
gary ioc co uk \( gary phillips \) subject xt intrinsics slow popups nntp posting host ioc co uk organization intelligent office company ltd lines 26 article minster york ac uk , cjhs minster york ac uk writes bryan \( bryan alex com \) wrote article minster york ac uk , cjhs minster york ac uk writes application creates window button quit press button press pops dialog box strange feature program always pops dialog box much faster first time try pop 2nd time \( 3rd , 4th time \) , much slower shell waiting window manager respond positioning request window manager responding thinks window already right place exactly two components get sulk unclear information greatly received time 've seen similar behaviour x application child without setting close exec x display connection file descriptor shell waited event never arrived got picked child sometimes shell correctly got timing 'right' gary phillips email gary ioc co uk phone 44 81 528 phones cix compulink co uk fax 44 81 528
klute tommy informatik uni dortmund de \( rainer klute \) subject imake help needed organization cs department , dortmund university , germany lines 18 distribution world nntp posting host tommy informatik uni dortmund de article 1993apr20 def bae co uk , paul def bae co uk \( paul byrne \) writes someone please give pointers setting imake sun openwindows \? 've checked documentation find clues sun 's openwindows imake broken suggest installing imake pure , mit 's x11r5 imake get ftp germany eu net file pub x11 misc imake imake pure tar z \( byte \) dipl inform rainer klute r b immer richtig beraten univ dortmund , irb postfach 500500 \) tel 49 231 755 4663 w4600 dortmund 50 fax 49 231 755 2386 new address june 30th univ dortmund , 44221 dortmund
uucp \( r william steer \) subject x server nt \? organization internet lines 5 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu ! ! expo lcs mit edu ! xpert east sun com anybody x server nt 're willing share files experiences \? bill steer
inmos co uk \( hugh mcintyre \) subject sun3 60 x11r5 console messages keywords sun sun3 x11r5 console organization inmos limited , bristol , uk lines 23 old sun3 60 gets occasional use x11r5 started console messages startup x fully started run xterm console problem messages arrive starts go plain console refresh window fails remove messages real pain since sit middle screen anything else boot time 3 60 lists two dev cgfour0 dev bwtwo1 're running x color , suspect maybe offending messages b w framebuffer , thereby getting deleted question anyone else seen , easy way get rid messages \? please reply e mail inmos co uk hugh mcintyre inmos ltd , bristol , uk \( btw sunos 4 0 3 , x11r5 , mwm \) ps know redirect output relevant commands dev null i'm looking general solution \)
beck irzr17 inf tu dresden de \( andre beck \) subject 24 bit static color clients like \? organization dept computer science , tu dresden , germany lines 37 distribution world reply andre beck irs inf tu dresden de nntp posting host irzr17 inf tu dresden de article 1993apr26 1 vxcrna cern ch , roeber vxcrna cern ch \( frederick roeber \) writes i'm writing x server video generation equipment hardware truecolor yuv space x terms 24 bit static color visual would really like server present static visual , i'm sure acceptable x clients three problems see 1 \) colormap , though huge , static 2 \) pixels would 3 bytes wide 3 \) hardware actually lives yuv space , translation rgb yuv introduce rounding error server guy client guy , ask limitations thwart many x clients \? x stuff floating around blithely accept 're given \? could write server also present pseudocolor visual , e g , 8 bits , 'd rather avoid necessary even 24bit truecolor machines cases running 8 bit pseudocolor visual , get standard x clients , motif apps run strongly suppose emulate least 24 bit truecolor problem , translation rounding make big misfits 8 bit pseudocolor problem , emulate colormap , pixel indices , conversion stuff furthermore , run default screen visual brain inside andre' beck \( abpsoft \) mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de
watarts uwaterloo ca \( chris \) subject 4 plane xterminal \( want one \? \) keywords plane , xterminal organization university waterloo lines 12 've old 4 bits pixel greyscale xterminal aside real people already upgraded risc architecture r5 servers , want xterminal \? i'm concerned 4 planes 've ever heard 1 \( mono \) 8 \( colour \) planes concerns 4 plane unit \? specifically related 4 planes vs 1 8 thanks ! c ps r5 apps run r4 r3 servers , right \?
ntsc rd navy mil \( steve \) subject unix interest group \? organization internet lines 17 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert xpert expo lcs mit edu know correct place post , exhausted logical options used info unix newsgroup mailer mailers mysteriously quite coming around end last year e mails requesting placed back list ignored unable locate administrator list anyone knows internet address send request get back list , please send n't know specific newsgroup mailer , would appreciate address unix related newsgroup thanks cutoff , steve ntsc rd navy mil ps sorry non x related question
whaley sigma kpc com \( ken whaley \) subject 24 bit static color clients like \? reply beck irzr17 inf tu dresden de 's message 26 apr 1993 17 54 12 gmt organization kubota pacific computer inc lines 21 even 24bit truecolor machines cases running 8 bit pseudocolor visual , get standard x clients , motif apps run strongly suppose emulate least 24 bit truecolor problem , translation rounding make big misfits depends nature rounding x allows user bit arithmetic pixel values , \( e , xor foreground pixel values together calculate foreground color used function gxxor fill change foreground background vice versa \) rounding preserve types calculations clients use break ken kenneth whaley \( 408 \) 748 6347 kubota pacific computer , inc email whaley kpc com 2630 walsh avenue santa clara , ca 95051
bocaraton ibm com \( thomas chun hong kok \) subject moolit olit organization ibm austin lines 12 article netcom com , netcom com \( steve davidson \) writes anyone know difference moolit olit \? sun support moolit \? moolit available sparcstations \? moolit \( motif open look intrinsic toolkit allows developers build applications switch motif open look run time , olit gives open look internet vnet ibm com
fzi de \( kai \) subject archie client \? organization informatik \( fzi \) , karlsruhe , germany lines 4 distribution world reply fzi de nntp posting host fzi de 1 2 needs archie client program anybody know , get \? thanks advance , kai
pmartz dsd es com \( paul martz \) subject 24 bit static color clients like \? nntp posting host bambam reply pmartz dsd es com \( paul martz \) organization evans sutherland computer corp , salt lake city , ut lines 38 article 1993apr26 1 vxcrna cern ch , roeber vxcrna cern ch \( frederick roeber \) writes i'm writing x server video generation equipment hardware truecolor yuv space x terms 24 bit static color visual would really like server present static visual , i'm sure acceptable x clients three problems see 1 \) colormap , though huge , static 2 \) pixels would 3 bytes wide 3 \) hardware actually lives yuv space , translation rgb yuv introduce rounding error tried ship x server supported 24bit truecolor visual main problems encountered 1 \) clients written logic like following \( \( \) ! 1 \) assume default depth 8bit clients need 8bit deep visual root window run correctly 2 \) clients n't even bother much , outright assumed dynamic visual class , dynamic colormap xstorecolors n't work associated static truecolor visual classes , many clients n't bother check , start throwing xstorecolor calls though clearly client error , case many clients 's easier expose 8bit pseudocolor default root window visual , ever would client writers change clients right thing paul pmartz dsd es com evans sutherland
moore halley est 3m com \( richard moore \) subject using message passing xtaddinput organization 3m company , 3m center , minnesota , usa distribution comp windows x lines 7 past , used named pipes communicate processes using xtaddinput function set event handling motif anybody know way message passing \( ipc \) \? tried luck far thanks
v acsu buffalo edu \( \) subject red color button enter window distribution usa organization ub lines 7 nntp posting host eng buffalo edu may faq , dont know get faq list ! openlook application buttons first button turns red \( gets highlighted \? \) soon sprite \( mouse \) moved application window suppress \?
gerard dps co uk \( gerard o'driscoll \) subject asynchronous x windows \? organization internet lines 55 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu , n't x window system , x11 , x number designations accepted x consortium fact , man x pretty much x11 machine tell x consortium requests following names used referring software x x window system x version 11 x window system , version 11 x11 thing x windows x window , despite repeated misuse forms trade rags probably tells something much trust trade rags ca n't even get name window system right , one trust anything else say \? used think way , x example , incorrect english constructs raining 's window id annoy however , comes time popular usage starts dictate way things really world indeed , fact x news really popular opinion \( know , think 's \( ! \) technically superior well ! \) related topic , say color less correct colour irish , hence using english english opposed american english , always use latter except , course , api terms xalloccolor colormap world uses term windows refer microsoft windows , perhaps time come accept x windows valid term x think concise uncluttered term , say , x window system , let 's face , almost everyone uses ultimately , need product sales x literate people respect , product recognition important short , , descriptive title \( x positively obscure \) help dealing average \( 's sad thought software engineer ! \) indeed unfortunate x become known windows let ms worry whether called microsoft windows microsoft window system plain microsoft ! summarise \( summarize \) point message think far pressing issues facing x community worrying subtle distinctions naming window system \( windowing system \) whatever gets recognised fine agree one careful interpreting trade papers say however , would reluctant come conclusion purely basis name x window system gerard o'driscoll \( gerard odriscoll dps co uk \) du pont pixel systems ltd
org \( man wai chiu \) subject 2 1 ow server organization utexas mail news gateway lines 43 distribution inet nntp posting host cs utexas edu program written x11r5 motif 1 2 1 runs fine sun x11r5 server macx program run sparc 2 ow server , program crashed along server crashed first window showed got following error x xio fatal io error 32 \( broken pipe \) x server perot 0 0 62 requests \( 59 known processed \) 0 events remaining connection probably broken server shutdown run program last twenty lines program server crashed request delete false window win property atm type atm long offset reply format 00 type none bytes request reply revert parent focus win request mode replace window win property atm type atm format 08 data 42 00 00 01 00 00 00 10 00 00 00 75 00 00 00 00 request please email idea problem thanks advance mw chiu org
matt centerline com \( matt landau \) subject asynchronous x windows \? organization centerline software , inc lines 42 nntp posting host 140 239 1 32 dps co uk gerard dps co uk \( gerard o'driscoll \) writes , n't x window system , x11 , x number designations accepted x consortium thing x windows x window , despite repeated misuse forms trade rags used think way , x example , incorrect english constructs raining 's window id annoy however , comes time popular usage starts dictate way things really world well , yes n't particularly want discussion spark lengthy debate , think 's worth pointing popular usage always sufficient excuse case , example , think appropriate parallel may found pronunciation proper names people commonly name , would feel compelled change \? probably true x x window system , x , x11 , related proper names sense product name proper name fact , trademarked names fact many people get wrong largely beside point trade publications promulgate things like x window x windows variants one often sees , consider fact publications supposedly written journalists would trust facts journalist could n't bothered get name source right \? would trust product review someone got name product wrong \? popular usage may , one holding people claim journalists higher standard correctness indeed , fact x news really popular opinion \( know , think 's \( ! \) technically superior well ! \) x11 technically superior news \? well , alternate universe perhaps
cactus org \( \) subject unisys emulation keywords xterm term emulation organization capital area central texas unix society , austin , tx lines 11 anyone seen source xterm package ready perform unisys terminal emulation got got connect ! return cactus org cactus org graham pena law
wilfred hansen cs cmu edu subject andrew technical conference organization carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 61 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xannounce expo lcs mit edu reminder plan andrew conference date dates noted \( changed \) submission extension still accepting papers tutorial topic converting andrew source code c tutorial discuss steps necessary convert site c \( extended \) c conversion source code requires couple steps run converter fill missing type information describing take long remainder day spent learning write objects c practicing 1993 andrew technical conference consortium annual meeting june 24 25 , 1993 carnegie mellon university pittsburgh , pa conference held last thursday friday june tutorial thursday 24th conference proper 25th annual meeting dinner evening two days conference attendees welcome annual meeting , though consortium members able vote year 's theme application construction non programmers much effort x toolkits aimed programmer construction applications , however , excellent uims systems built top x papers addressing theme consider questions needed application construction non programmers \? avoid programming altogether , simple language needed \? sufficient create applications , must users able create new widgets \? widgets applications able print \? participation conference welcome papers appropriate theme aspect andrew user interface system , including applications experience users new objects reviews proposals revision internal andrew protocols expect rs 6000 video projector available would like demonstration paper proposals submitted 15 may 1993 acceptance 1 june final papers due 15 june send papers via electronic mail andrew cmu edu fred hansen director , andrew consortium
ferguson cs rochester edu \( george ferguson \) subject xarchie 2 0 available export organization department computer science , university rochester lines 40 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xannounce expo lcs mit edu please accept following announcement comp windows x announce gf completely version x11 browser interface archie , xarchie , available export lcs mit edu contrib xarchie 2 0 tar z archie xarchie , include part intro xarchie x11 browser interface archie internet information system using virtual filesystem protocol archie provides information files available ftp anywhere internet xarchie displays information using easy use , point click interface xarchie allows explore ftp sites examining directories returned query matches , allows retrieve files located way xarchie 2 0 extensively tested r4 , r5 , variety flavors x , wide range machines summary new features \( readme \) follows major improvements include multiple selections allowed browser use new features \( fwf widget \) ability expand directories browser real fully integrated ftp implementation ability save reload query results , well print ability resort results , sort results user definable pseudo weights online help browser color resources , done n't break mono displays fwf widget local file operations makefile 's supplied imake impaired george george ferguson arpa ferguson cs rochester edu dept computer science uucp rutgers ! rochester ! ferguson university rochester vox \( 716 \) 275 2527 rochester ny 14627 0226 fax \( 716 \) 461 2018
bill west msi com \( bill \) subject regression testing x reply bill msi com organization molecular simulations , inc x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 17 megan \( megan cs uq oz au \) wrote 'd appreciate feedback capture playback tools use x clients comparisons comments regression testing tools would great particularly , , , sri 's , starting could find commercial ones , least phone number would appreciated bill molecular simulations inc tel \( 617 \) 229 9800 bill msi com burlington , fax \( 617 \) 229 ftp mail mail ftpmail decwrl dec com offers ftp via email subject cr help cr quit
hue island com \( pond scum \) subject get 24bit color xview frames \? organization island graphics corp lines 17 ces cwru edu \( \) writes would like know set depth frame 24 bits tried using following xlib code using completely wrong approach \? possible set depth yes colormap window created xview \? wrong \? look xv depth also , might want try using xview colormap segments instead xlib colormap stuff probably easier use , since using truecolor visual , wo n't losing anything compared straight xlib jonathan hue island com
rvloon cv ruu nl \( ronald van loon \) subject announcing motif mailing list organization university utrecht , 3d computer vision research group lines 132 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu keywords , motif xannounce expo lcs mit edu glad proud announce new mailing list pd motif c bindings got 40 replies one week people interested list , software properly installed , list running interested joining , please send e mail extend request cv ruu cv ruu blurb everyone joins gets follows , well original announcement motif obtained enjoy ! 8 8 welcome motif mailing list ! motif mailing list mailing list dedicated motif , pd c wrapper library motif , people ask questions motif , swap stories , give new ideas new directions improvements bindings requests administrative nature , like subscription , removal , etc directed motif request cv ruu nl e mail sent motif cv ruu nl sent entire list , please make sure using type programs reply messages automatically , address mailing list excluded auto replies enjoy ! ronald van loon theory , difference \( rvloon cv ruu nl \) theory practice 3dcv group , utrecht netherlands practice however , 8 8 hello motif world , past half year lot relatively minor changes motif bindings imake support improved , defaults changed , lot small things added basically release drops status next release incorporate improvements stefan schwarz , possibly support x11r5 motif 1 2 x note keep copies archive please retrieve distribution \( peak hours \) , delete previous copies original announcement history university lowell , supported grant open software foundation , developed wrapper library , motif widgets c classes resources widgets set member functions , objects used callback functions library made available free nominal cost anonymous ftp 129 63 1 1 however , library contained large number bugs , worked x11r3 due lack subsequent , bindings longer actively supported university lowell , ronald van loon , certain point last year , taken lowell bindings , fixing bugs came across , adding missing , enhancing functionality made bug fixed library available general public anonymous ftp \( made possible rick murphy dec \) new release pleased announce new updated release motif bindings release offers full 1 x11r4 support support two additional widgets , written , used indicate progress application imake support nb release relies heavily existence imake config files site tried provide bindings standard makefile , without imake severely tested standard makefile though contact problems reason calling gamma release lies fact multitude platforms test imake files lots \( even somewhat useful programs \) article wrote usage motif , x c , previously posted usenet get new motif bindings ftp anonymous ftp dec com \( 192 5 214 1 \) , directory pub x11 note please patient network link quite slow please ftp large files working hours also note also motif 31 jan 92 tar z file site old version bindings e mail n't ftp send e mail , send bindings e mail request use bindings find bugs , see room improvement , please contact , try incorporate future release \( case bugs , bug fix course \) information contact rvloon cv ruu nl desperate , call 31 30 \( utrecht , netherlands within netherlands call 030 \) enjoy ! ronald van loon theory , difference \( rvloon cv ruu nl \) theory practice 3dcv group , utrecht netherlands practice however ,
tom com \( thomas \) subject manual unsubscribe request organization internet lines 13 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu list two addresses , think tom com zuma ! tom netcomsv netcom com please delete second one , zuma ! tom netcomsv netcom com thanks sorry screw tom capital management sciences west los angeles tom com 310 479
matt centerline com \( matt landau \) subject looking updated xview textedit source \( w n support \) article armory organization centerline software , inc lines 28 nntp posting host 140 239 1 32 xview version 3 source distribution included contrib section x11r5 included source textedit program 'd like take sources modify add support tooltalk like message server , maybe tooltalk i'm , since sun supplied textedit binary n't seem speak tooltalk however , sources r5 contrib area seem older version textedit version shipped openwindows 3 example , 3 0 textedit includes drag drop support main control area , source contrib xview knows nothing drag drop textedit c included xview sources says 's version 15 50 , dated 5 22 90 , 'what 3 0 binary says textedit c 2 62 91 09 14 copyr 1990 sun micro c 1 26 91 09 14 copyr 1990 sun micro tooltalk c 2 16 91 09 14 copyr 1990 sun micro ds c 1 7 91 09 14 copyr 1990 sun micro , anyone know 9 14 91 sources textedit available \? 'd really like work latest source possible please reply email , 'll post summary 's enough interest matt landau waiting flash enlightenment matt centerline com blood thunder
pookie crd ge com \( janet barnett \) subject input focus window pointer nntp posting host pookie crd ge com organization ge corp research development , schenectady , ny lines 21 noticed framemaker 3 1x sgi sun platforms certain dialogs , column layout example , respond keyboard traversal even though pointer dialog window even though window manager keyboard focus policy pointer done \? would like emulate behavior application seems reasonable behavior since dialog popped keyboard action , dialog guaranteed pointer user reach mouse move focus alternatively , i'm open suggestions right way insure popups get focus appear , particularly invoked keyboard one 's keyboard focus policy pointer allen barnett \( whose wife graciously allowed use account \)
ian csc liv ac uk \( ian finch \) subject x events generated application exit \? organization knee deep sky high lines 18 nntp posting host rib csc liv ac uk x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 i'm writing application running x \( using motif \) , need stuff application quits , shut x windows session , n't seem send \( whatever \) signal application \( i'm trapping various signals like \) therefore , thought could use x signal check top level window destroyed however seem get events whenever move windows way check window actually destroyed \( field check combination events \? \) replies e mail please summarise thanks help , ian ian compsci liverpool ac uk
rei tsl cl nec co jp \( rei \) subject xavier \( av extension interviews \) article tsl 1993apr27 organization c c systems research labs , nec corporation , kawasaki , japan lines 58 nntp posting host hyperion tsl cl nec co jp dear folks 's pleasure able announce release new freeware program , xavier , audio video extension interviews xavier \( extension av class interviews \) c class library adds multimedia capability interviews allows composite multimedia objects built media objects specifically , adds audio video objects classes available interviews 3 0 1 3 1 , without changing source code original classes \( though several configuration files interviews need changed via patch file \) currently , xavier audio classes supported sun workstations audio interface , xavier tested following environments sun machine sparcstation ipc os sun 1 1 later c sun c 1 nec \( \) machine 210 , 230 os ux v \( 0 \) 1 , 2 c c 1 obtained via anonymous ftp interviews stanford edu pub contrib \( xavier large demo tar , xavier tar \) preparing mailing list information regarding xavier interested , please contact xavier tsl cl nec co jp add e mail address list reference rei , , jun audio video extension graphical interface toolkits , third international workshop network operating system support digital audio video , san diego , 1992 rei \( e mail rei tsl cl nec co jp \) c c systems research laboratories nec corporation 1 1 , 4 chome , tel 81 44 856 ku , kawasaki , fax 81 44 856 2232 216 japan
barmar think com \( barry margolin \) subject pulldown menu periodically hangs application openwindows 3 0 organization thinking machines corporation , cambridge , usa lines 22 distribution inet nntp posting host gandalf think com article ssdc ssdc sterling com ssdc ssdc sterling com \( richard lee \) writes motif 1 2 2 application periodically hang run openwindows 3 server \( xnews \) seen problem using sparcstation 10 , solaris 2 1 , ow 3 1 case , happens far often periodically n't know 's corresponding patch solaris 2 1 , sounds like following bug supposedly fixed 06 , solaris 1 x olwm jumbo patch window system hang errant pointer grab actually , suspect ow 3 1 problem may different , since readme file says patch sunos 4 x version ow 3 1 olwm \( maybe line came earlier version patch , forgot take 06 version \) barry margolin system manager , thinking machines corp barmar think com uunet , harvard ! think ! barmar
hedrick geneva rutgers edu \( charles hedrick \) subject xsun running sparcclassic organization rutgers univ , new brunswick , n j lines 24 herzog eng sun com \( brian herzog sunsoft product engineering \) writes i'm guessing , 'd guess x11r5 expects cg3 1152x900 resolution , version cg3 sparcclassic 1024x768 've used x11r5 classics set 1024x768 1152x900 \( choose resolution want prom monitor booting \) one person trouble x11r5 fixed using multi screen version 's version built \( copy usr local x11r5 bin xsun farside rutgers edu want see whether version work \) r5 distribution installed , pub r5 mit 1 4 contrib 1 3 export lcs mit edu patches 1 23 installed , pub r5 fixes export r5 xsun multi screen patches installed , contrib r5 xsun multi screen export , 22 mar 93 solaris 2 1 patches installed , release 1 update 2 , contrib r5 sunos5 patch export , 22 mar 93 compilation gcc 2 3 3 configuration standard , except root usr local x11r5 , per rutgers conventions
oj world std com \( oliver jones \) subject question found faq organization shawsheen software lines 11 article 1993apr26 relay nswc navy mil rchui opal nswc navy mil writes created pixmap drawable window , used xdrawline \( \) function draw clipped line 300 created pixmap drawable window size 300x300 draw line p1 \( x1 270 , y1 100 \) p2 \( x2 500 , y2 800 \) question , dose xdrawline function finger correct p3 \( x3 y3 \) \? calculate x3 y3 're asking , x server perform clipping correctly drawing lines , answer yes
uucp \( \) subject comp windows x organization internet lines 17 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu would like keep track x development ux ultrix openwindows currently cannot use newsgroup comp windows x would like use email based info thanks , cap gemini innovation dutch research centre 170 phone 31 70 239 p box fax 31 70 237 2280 ga \( nl \) e mail uucp
pjaques camborne school mines ac uk \( paul jaques \) subject problem ow 3 0 organization internet lines 44 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu anybody help \? problem displaying images greater 32768 bytes sparc ipc running openwindows 3 0 program runs vax displays images ipc problems use openwindows 2 0 program uses following lines display image xputimage \( \) routine crashes ximage ximage ximage \( mydisplay , \( mydisplay , \) , , , 0 , image , , , 8 , 0 \) xputimage \( mydisplay , mywindow , , ximage , 0 , 0 , , , , \) error get xio fatal io error 65535 x server galaxy 0 0 30 requests \( 18 known processed \) 0 events remaining xlib f , xlib io error system f , network partner disconnected logical link trace f , symbolic stack dump follows module name routine name line rel pc abs pc test main 293 simple test program anyone would like test ! ! thanks paul paul jaques systems engineer , camborne school mines , , , , cornwall e mail pjaques csm ac uk tel \( 0209 \) fax \( 0209 \)
mtl mit edu \( jeffrey c \) subject standard colormaps organization mit microsystems technology laboratories lines 49 distribution world nntp posting host mtl mit edu i'm working x11r5 application concerns regarding standard colormaps x11r5 documentation says usually , window manager creates colormaps wonder window manager writer mind neither twm mwm seem create standard colormaps course , one use xstdcmap create standard colormaps however , xstdcmap n't seem try hard avoid conflicts default colormap use standard colormaps created xstdcmap , rest display goes black seems use standard colormaps causes problem standard colormaps intended avoid perhaps every application used standard colormaps , things would wonderful many applications seem use standard colormaps finally , operation functions , , seem inconsistent section 14 3 x11r5 xlib documentation according section 14 3 x11r5 xlib documentation \( p 436 \) grayscale colormaps , colormap , red max , red mult , base pixel members defined members ignored compute grayscale pixel value , use following expression \( gray red mult base pixel \) , defined mit lib xmu c , used , defined mit lib xmu c select red max , green max , blue max values call rgb gray map property specified , sets red max 30 total number cells gray scale , sets green max 59 total number , sets blue max ot 11 total number referring section 14 3 , one would expect set red max total number cells gray scale rgb gray map property specified , , defined mit lib xmu c , sets red mult , green mult , blue mult equal 1 referring section 14 3 , one would expect green mult blue mult ignored red mult , green mult , blue mult equal 1 , , defined mit lib xmu c , constructs gray map sum red max , green max , blue max gives maximum gray value referring section 14 3 , would expect red max give maximum gray value
ccdw kudu ru ac za \( dave wilson \) subject xlib timeouts \? summary timeouts using xlib keywords xlib timeouts article kudu ccdw organization rhodes university , grahamstown , south africa lines 12 process modifying x application uses xlib 'd like include timer driven facility \( network polling \) , cannot see using xlib know done xaw , using xtappaddtimeout using xlib \? thanks help please email dave wilson computing centre , rhodes university grahamstown , south africa
phil flex eng mcmaster ca \( phil nguyen \) subject unsubscribe mailing list keywords unsubscribe nntp posting host flex eng mcmaster ca organization mcmaster university , hamilton , ontario , canada lines 20 try unsubscribe group sending email n't work could one tell listserv address command \? leaving friday \( 30th april 93 \) mail box overflow soon thanks philip nguyen research engineer flexible manufacturing research development centre \( \) mcmaster university 1280 main st west hamilton , voice \( 416 \) 529 7070 ext fax \( 416 \) 572 e mail phil flex eng mcmaster ca
met ed ac uk \( gordon watson \) subject get pixel value drawable \? \? keywords lots reply met ed ac uk distribution world organization meteorology department , edinburgh university , scotland lines 21 get pixel value drawable , without copy client ximage use \? \? want select pixels animating window server , without copy whole lot back client \( x11r5 \) pointers appreciated , gordon gordon c watson , meteorology department , edinburgh university , \( \) scotland janet g c watson uk ac ed internet met ed ac uk
lerc nasa gov \( tom nguyen \) subject resolve different font formats \? organization nasa lewis research center lines 21 distribution world nntp posting host lerc nasa gov news software vax vms vnews 1 41 hi ! tried run softpc , pc emulation software program , installed silicon graphics workstation human design system \( hds \) x terminal , everything went fine , except fonts could converted one type format hds uses different font format sgi , following questions 1 resolve different font formats different machines \? 2 program convert one type font format another \? similar problems experiences found solution , please let know help greatly appreciated ! thank advance help information tom lerc nasa gov
beck irzr17 inf tu dresden de \( andre beck \) subject archie client \? organization dept computer science , tu dresden , germany lines 8 distribution world reply andre beck irs inf tu dresden de nntp posting host irzr17 inf tu dresden de get xarchie 2 0 instead brain inside andre' beck \( abpsoft \) mehl andre beck irs inf tu dresden de
pmartz dsd es com \( paul martz \) subject standard colormaps nntp posting host bambam reply pmartz dsd es com \( paul martz \) organization evans sutherland computer corp , salt lake city , ut lines 50 article senator bedfellow mit edu , mtl mit edu \( jeffrey c \) writes i'm working x11r5 application concerns regarding standard colormaps x11r5 documentation says usually , window manager creates colormaps wonder window manager writer mind neither twm mwm seem create standard colormaps standard colormaps spec 'd intention window managers would make available n't mean every window manager author world immediately dropped everything implemented top priority server ship makes xa rgb best map available startup n't wait window managers course , one use xstdcmap create standard colormaps however , xstdcmap n't seem try hard avoid conflicts default colormap use standard colormaps created xstdcmap , rest display goes black seems use standard colormaps causes problem standard colormaps intended avoid perhaps every application used standard colormaps , things would wonderful many applications seem use standard colormaps hardware one clut \? since standard colormaps typically 256 entries , way avoid entire default colormap hardware one clut n't believe standard colormaps intended possible colormap flashing clients using default rather , colormap flashing avoided two clients use standard colormap example would two clients need full color range would use xa rgb best map \( whatever 's called x11r5 \) trying avoid colormap flashing default colormap , best bet try load colors use colormap ca n't , 'll get flashing one hw clut framebuffer window manager used standard colormap client , flashing could also avoided perhaps window managers command line options selecting standard colormaps \? paul pmartz dsd es com evans sutherland
klute tommy informatik uni dortmund de \( rainer klute \) subject imake support xmosaic organization cs department , dortmund university , germany lines 20 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xannounce expo lcs mit edu imake support xmosaic although xmosaic great program general , unfortunately comes without imake support created one marc finds time incorporate official xmosaic release , easily use anonymous ftp get ftp germany eu net pub x11 misc xmosaic imake tar z file 's size 3200 byte need gzip unpack fun ! dipl inform rainer klute r b immer richtig beraten univ dortmund , irb postfach 500500 \) tel 49 231 755 4663 w4600 dortmund 50 fax 49 231 755 2386 new address june 30th univ dortmund , 44221 dortmund
julia netcom com \( julia miller \) subject posix message catalogs keywords posix organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 17 someone tell 25 words less compile posix message catalogs use , , etc know format catalogs , n't know compile please reply com thanks advance , black white software , inc leaders systems software solutions ave suite 210 contact black white information campbell , ca x windows osf motif software support \( 408 \) 369 7400 osf motif ms windows gui builders \( 408 \) 369 add widgets , editors help systems info com c ada motif bindings
susan andrew cmu edu \( susan \) subject registration andrew tutorial technical conference organization school computer science , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 81 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xannounce expo lcs mit edu 1993 andrew tutorial technical conference thursday friday , june 24 25 , 1993 \( deadline registration june 4 , 1993 \) carnegie mellon university pittsburgh , pennsylvania sponsor andrew consortium cmu 's school computer science schedule tutorial thursday , followed dinner annual meeting conference proper friday conference attendees welcome annual meeting wednesday , june 23 check 4 00 pm informal reception 7 30 pm thursday , june 24 tutorial 9 00 5 00 pm conference dinner 6 30 pm annual meeting 8 00 pm friday , june 25 technical conference 9 00 5 00 pm cost tutorial fee includes breaks , lunch tutorial materials 100 conference fee includes conference dinner , breaks proceedings 100 rooms \( student housing \) 50 night housing tight around campus area , please register soon prefer stay campus housing , please contact us suggestions mary anne handling registration contact email , andrew cmu edu , phone , \( 412 \) 268 6710 registration form please complete attached form return mary anne andrew consortium technical conference carnegie mellon university smith hall 106 5000 forbes avenue pittsburgh , pa 15213 3890 cut along name address organization email phone tutorial 100 conference 100 housing 50 night total enclosed please make checks payable carnegie mellon university
mentorg com \( darcy \) subject keyboard mapping window placement questions nntp posting host mentorg com organization mentor keywords lines 27 two common subjects hope someone deal specific questions 1 application depends modifiers , best lookup method \? choices call \( \) key press modifier , make call init app store modifiers lookup table would like second way , ca n't seem get notify user uses xmodmap remap modifiers know app calls \( \) event generated \( non \) pick modify internal table , n't seem get notify events user uses xmodmap use xt , o'reilly say ' automatically handled xt ' use xlib , ala xnextevent \( \) , get nothing stems problems users sun 4 5 keyboard numlock plus various alt meta etc modifier requirements 2 would like place popup immediate right main window want coord , right left sides touching need ask x , coord window manager 's border main window ring bell anyone called \( \) , immediately checking x , move seeing right , next callback asking x , seeing offset wm border help would appreciated darcy darcy mentorg com
hans xelion nl \( hans bos \) subject save x11r5 keywords save , x11r5 organization xelion bv lines 26 following problem x11r5 servers window obscured pop window save attribute set , subwindows window restored normally , subwindows redrawn parent window gets expose event , save attribute used pop window obscured window , expose event sent exposuremask set child windows , windows correctly updated popup window disappears , however application gets many expose events see extra redraws everything works fine x11r4 something changed x11r4 x11r5 \( obvious \) \? something wrong \? something popup window \( also mine \) \? bug x11 release 5 \? greetings , hans bos domain hans xelion nl xelion bv uucp ! sun4nl ! xelion ! hans 88 phone 31 15
rgasch nl oracle com \( robert gasch \) subject overriding default wm behaviour organization oracle europe lines 48 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 posted tow weeks ago never saw make \( 've problems mail system \) apologies appears second time usually start application , first get window outline display click mouse button actually place window screen yet specify geometry option window appears right away , properties specified geometry argument question override intermediary step user specify window position \? 've tried explicitly setting window size position , alter normal program behaviour thanks hints robert ps i'm working plain x , using tvtwm robert gasch der mai ist der tag dem die ins oracle engineering und den de , nl auf rgasch nl oracle com headers ! expo lcs mit edu ! xpert mailer thu apr 22 17 24 28 1993 remote received aol com id thu , 22 apr 93 17 10 35 edt received psi com psi com \( 5 4 0 psi \) via smtp id thu , 22 apr 93 12 04 36 0400 received expo lcs mit edu psi com \( 4 1 3 1 psi \) id thu , 22 apr 93 10 19 31 edt received expo lcs mit edu thu , 22 apr 93 06 57 38 0400 received enterpoop mit edu expo lcs mit edu thu , 22 apr 93 06 57 37 0400 received enterpoop mit edu \( 5 57 4 7 \) id thu , 22 apr 93 06 57 14 0400 received usenet enterpoop xpert expo lcs mit edu \( xpert expo lcs mit edu \) contact usenet enterpoop questions xpert expo lcs mit edu date 22 apr 93 08 09 35 gmt rgasch nl oracle com \( robert gasch \) message id oracle nl organization oracle europe subject overriding default behaviour
gary andrew cmu edu subject x toolkits organization school computer science , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 10 nntp posting host po2 andrew cmu edu reply rebels b23b ingr com excerpts misc 27 apr 93 x toolkits rebels b \( 423 \) finger ! ! ! way accessing service like mail server telnet ftp \? use telnet xhost atk itc cmu edu telnet atk itc cmu edu 79 run demo
ms uky edu \( k \) subject realtime x tensions organization university kentucky , dept math sciences lines 8 hi , iam looking information work deals real time support x windows \? \? \? \? ! ! would happy could provide pointers information thanks ms uky edu
neal grover stat washington edu \( phil neal \) subject wierd xdm behavior organization u washington dept statistics lines 48 distribution world nntp posting host grover stat washington edu originator neal grover stat washington edu dear sun windows people , running sun workstations sunos 4 1 1 vanilla x11 r5 bunch xterminals well today xdm fail 9 30 impossible login host xterminal message xdm many xdm errors file following entries error \( pid 7423 \) server display 0 terminated unexpectedly 256 error \( pid \) warning keyboard display 0 could secured error \( pid 7423 \) server display 0 terminated unexpectedly also error \( pid \) warning keyboard display 0 could secured error \( pid 7423 \) server display 0 terminated unexpectedly 256 error \( pid \) warning keyboard display 0 could secured error \( pid 7423 \) server display 0 terminated unexpectedly 256 also , console , login box would come 2 seconds would go away would continuously could login another workstation hosts question , however , could login console tried killing xdm restarting n't help finally rebooted hosts \( hurts done middle day \) help would appreciated thanks , phil phil neal , systems programmer , statistics department gn 22 university washington , seattle , wa 98195 usa 206 685 look , another bit ! repo man \( movie \)
black westford ccur com \( samuel black \) subject realtime x tensions organization concurrent computer corp westford , lines 19 looking information work deals real time support x windows \? \? \? \? ! ! would happy could provide pointers information concurrent product called \( tm \) set real time extensions x window system currently supported concurrent series 7000 series 8000 graphics accelerator need want info , let know sam black remove absurdity human existence , n't much left black westford ccur com concurrent computer corporation
moore halley est 3m com \( richard moore \) subject x interactive performance reply afielden cbnewsb cb att com 's message mon , 26 apr 1993 14 20 40 gmt organization 3m company , 3m center , minnesota , usa lines 4 image display , 10 frames per second seems lower limit interactive operations bringing image viewing less 1 second seems good number course measure response time based applications planning run
cs unc edu \( \) subject frame buffer question x11r5 \( sun \) organization university north carolina chapel hill lines 22 distribution world nntp posting host cs unc edu x window installation sun4 470 cg6 alone cg2 screen 0 0 cg6 screen 0 1 questions 1 \) hardware configuration changes cg2 cg6 devices need made pulling inserting cg2 frame buffer vme bus \? 2 \) cg6 called significance x server install sunos driver x compatable would appreciate information posting behalf dr john charlton \( net access \) please reply directly charlton bme unc edu send address forward thank help ! cs unc edu
mike hopper virginia edu \( michael chapman \) subject 4 plane xterminal \( want one \? \) keywords plane , xterminal organization itc uva community access unix internet project lines 12 article watserv1 uwaterloo ca watarts uwaterloo ca \( chris \) writes ps r5 apps run r4 r3 servers , right \? 4 bit server work fine far know , xterminals running older versions run latest apps long host machine r5 libraries installed could wrong though mike hopper acs virginia edu raise taxes middle class unknown
uvacs cs virginia edu \( scott evans \) subject menubutton widget question reply thrash virginia edu \( scott evans \) organization make stop lines 9 i'm trying create button label bitmap using menubutton widget possible \? right , get bitmap sign label help would appreciated scott
lclark edu \( jon \) subject access 24 bit color cg8 \? article lclark 1993apr28 organization lewis clark college , portland lines 15 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 sun 3 80 acquired cg8 frame buffer card cg8 supposed support 24 bit color visual monochrome visual default visual xnews server monochrome , unable change 24 bit visual tried using get visual depth 24 , success xdpyinfo gives information 24 bit deep visual , monochrome two possible solutions someone patches x11r5 xsun server , could forward us \? otherwise , could someone instruct us access 24 bit color openwindows \? jon email lclark edu lewis clark college portland ,
joel z code com \( joel reymont \) subject xsun finding default font \( 1 \) organization internet lines 20 nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu hi , netters ! 've built x11r5 pl 21 solaris 2 1 've used multi screen patch , well r5 sunos patch everything builds great , except error message xsun gives upon startup says cannot set default font path ' stuff deleted ' cannot set default font supply fp option , n't complain font path still complains font usr lib place distribution lives could somebody help \? joel joel reymont ! z code software corporation ! e mail joel z code com redwood hwy , suit b 50 , san rafael , ca
gpatapis boyd tansu com au \( george \) subject desqview x pc network traffic organization cssc lines 71 distribution world reply gpatapis boyd tansu com au nntp posting host boyd cssc syd tansu com au article qdeck com , support qdeck com \( technical support \) writes article picasso cssc syd tansu com au gpatapis boyd tansu com au writes sort traffic generated x calls \? curious find required bandwidth link must one machine running dv x supporting multiple users \( clients \) require adequate response time anyone ideas \? \? expect limiting factor server machine , network give real world example , quarterdeck roughly 100 people using dvx talk bunch unix boxes , novell file servers , 's much load ethernet \( maybe 4 , 20 30 people segment \) badly loaded net , apps wanted run network intensive , could run slowdowns biggest problem would machine say 486 33 plenty ram fast hard disk network card 10 people running programs , 're going see slowdowns 're \( effectively \) 3 3 mhz 486 course , dvx attempt see tasks idle make sure give time slice , 10 working programs running , 'll know well buy bigger powerful server machine significant drop price year year link want use though \( isdn 64k \) costly bandwidth limited 's interest lies seeing link used see traffic goes said , tweak programs run \( adding calls give time slices idle sort thing \) , could probably run 15 20 people given machine started seeing slowdowns \( time network bandwidth \) hmmm anyone centre monitored traffic \? running standard ms windows programs like word \? sort packets go blazing \? size link \( 2mb 10mb \? \) average traffic flow going network high peaks many low points \? really depends programs \( ie 're going see slowdown x bandwidth lot sooner apps network things also \) mean network things \? vision using ms windows windows applications network processes running server getting displays wondering good x subsequently dv x protocol transferring images x calls displaying client 's machine quarterdeck office systems internet support tom pricing ordering info qdeck com tech questions support qdeck com bbs \( 310 \) 314 3227 fax \( 310 \) 314 3217 compuserve go quarterdeck q fax \( 310 \) 314 3214 touch tone phone demand ! george pan telecom c c lane email gpatapis cssc syd tansu com au p box sydney south fax \( 02 \) 911 3 199 nsw , 2000 , australia voice \( 02 \) 911 3 121
i88 isc com \( jeff copeland \) subject hp interface architect nntp posting host i88 isc com organization interactive systems corporation , naperville , il distribution usa lines 15 hey gui folks , anyone experience hp interface architect \( gui dev tool \) \? , call ask couple quick questions \? promise 'll brief , questions simple , course 'll call nickel jeff copeland i88 isc com 708 505 9100 interactive systems corp \( co \) jeff copeland i88 isc com 708 505 9100
bradley grip cis upenn edu \( john bradley \) subject xv 3 00 escaped ! organization grasp lab , university pennsylvania lines 13 nntp posting host grip cis upenn edu , another false alarm , 'll certainly done next week message , real thing repeat , drill ! batten hatches , hide women , lock cows , xv 3 00 finally escaped cleaning cage morning overpowered , broke office door , fled lab last seen heading general direction export lcs mit edu nearly 30k per second found , answers name 'contrib xv 3 00 tar z' blast i'm vacation capital u waco , texas
fabian w open de \( fabian \) subject searching cad software nntp posting host organization next generation lines 13 hi ! i'm looking \( mechanic construction \) cad software either pd sources sun 3 binaries \( respective licence \) knows package \( source site get \) \? thx , fabian fabian phone 49 2332 57 fax 49 2332 w email fabian w open de germany
fish stx com \( john \) subject simple way check action mouse button take \? organization nasa goddard space flight center greenbelt , md usa lines 10 w actually executing \? somehow one xterminal users made click \( right \) automatically kills clients oh \( thanx , fish john r internet fish gsfc nasa gov nasa gsfc hstx vox 301 513 1683 run , run , catch sun , 's sinking , racing around come behind rw dg
fish stx com \( john \) subject anybody patched version tvtwm \? \? \? organization nasa goddard space flight center greenbelt , md usa lines 19 read code put applications virtual desktop stuff tvtwm n't confuse \( application confusing virtual ness \? chicken egg \? wanted see applied version never could quite get ssetroot work either \? suggestions luckily xv root quit trick part also , quite interested hearing icon region virtual window tvtwm read thread last week thanx , fish john r internet fish gsfc nasa gov nasa gsfc hstx vox 301 513 1683 run , run , catch sun , 's sinking , racing around come behind rw dg
gnu gdb bug gatech edu distribution world deepak expert cc purdue edu \( deepak \) subject help developing x windows interface gdb organization motorola , semiconductor products sector lines 39 hi , trying write x windows based interface runs top gdb could anyone help understanding way supposed fork gdb \? \? currently use pipes try debug program , following happens program main \( \) int x printf \( enter x \) \( , x \) printf \( x n , x \) output program hangs without returning output printf statement type value \( like 5 \) , printf 's output comes one time way , besides using pipes e , like ioctl something else \? \? thanks , deepak deepak advanced products research development laboratory motorola , semiconductor products sector austin , tx \( 512 \) 928 deepak inxs sps mot com
steve com subject motif server ascii terminals organization corporation signal technology lines 2 nntp posting host louie anyone know x server character cell terminals \? n't anything fancy , long works
sti cs hut fi \( sami \) subject finding state state keys \( eg , capslock numlock \) organization helsinki university technology , cs lab lines 23 distribution inet nntp posting host cs hut fi blue arbortext com rps arbortext com \( ralph seguin \) writes question means determining state capslock numlock \? n't know way except see modifiers th keypress event course reason need always know state modifiers even windows n't focus always ask keypress events root window get always know pressed even pointed question easy means making x keyboard act like pc keyboard \? ie , capslock active , user presses shift , 'd like get 'a' instead 'a' think question implement xlookupstring always write another function interprets like look implementation xlookupstring xlib sources modify little bit sami hut fi g sami hut admd c fi live long !
greg software mitel com \( gregory lehman \) subject looking drawing packages organization mitel \( ontario \) canada lines 24 greetings developing application allows user interactively create edit view visual model \( e topology \) network , wondering anyone knew builder tools exist simplify task past used visual edge 's uim x product develop guis , familiar general topology support objects connecting links topology created , want provide user capabilities support grouping , zooming , etc looking form higher abstraction x drawing routines accomplish specifically , zooming grouping aspects may prove difficult , certainly time consuming , roll suggestions \? greg greg software mitel com
bigwpi wpi edu \( john \) subject motorcycle wanted organization worcester polytechnic institute lines 11 expires 5 1 93 nntp posting host bigwpi wpi edu followup wpi wpi edu distribution ne organization worcester polytechnic institute keywords looking inexpensive motorcycle , nothing fancy , able self looking 400 range help , great ! , please reply e mail
cis ohio state edu \( micah r \) subject boat sale organization ohio state university dept computer info science lines 14 distribution usa expires nntp posting host cis ohio state edu boat sale 1989 imperial fisherman featuring cabin , 305 v8 volvo duo prop fm cassette stereo , vhf radio , hummingbird , safty equipment , covers , much lb capacity includes storage trailer hardly used less 100 hrs asking 15 , 000 best offer information contact gerald 1 \( 419 \) 756 mansfield , oh
prism gatech edu \( maureen l eagle \) subject wanted brother p touch article hydra distribution usa organization georgia institute technology lines 12 says , i'm interested buying one little label makers , ca n't afford new one anybody tired \? e mail maureen prism gatech edu maureen l eagle georgia institute technology , atlanta georgia , 30332 uucp ! decvax , hplabs , ncar , purdue , rutgers ! gatech ! prism ! internet prism gatech edu
mike diack mike staff tc umn edu subject make talking ! x xxmessage id dialup slip 1 66 gw umn edu x xxdate tue , 6 apr 93 07 49 24 gmt nntp posting host dialup slip 1 66 gw umn edu organization persian cat carpet co x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d7 lines 7 complete standalone system \( computer required \) burning sound files consists apollo eprom programmer \( designed specifically job wont anything else \) microphone logical devices eprom eraser \( wipe mistakes \) brand new 230
xsoft xerox com \( jeffrey \) subject week lines 16 x received usenet pa dec com id mon , 5 apr 93 11 54 26 0700 x received inet gw 1 pa dec com id mon , 5 apr 93 11 54 25 0700 x received xsoft xerox com \( 13 242 72 2 \) alpha xerox com smtp id mon , 5 apr 1993 11 53 13 pdt x received \( 13 242 56 32 \) xsoft xerox com \( 4 1 smi 4 1 \) id mon , 5 apr 93 11 53 00 pdt x received \( 4 1 smi 4 1 \) id mon , 5 apr 93 11 53 06 pdt x misc forsale usenet week rent must use july best offer ! ! week traded anywhere world \( hawaii , austria , far east , u etc \) interval international answer questions , help trade \( paperwork phone numbers order \) contact jeff com 415 813 \( daytime leave msg \)
usc edu \( hung jen chen \) subject test article phakt distribution na organization university southern california , los angeles , ca test lines 6 nntp posting host phakt usc edu
thouchin cs umr edu \( j \) subject sale 1280 24bit article umr 1993apr5 distribution usa organization university missouri rolla lines 12 nntp posting host mcs213c cs umr edu originator thouchin mcs213c cs umr edu sale orchid 1280 24bit color card 1 meg almost new 200 best offer post friend call \( \) 314 368 j
kssimon silver ucs indiana edu \( kenneth steven simon \) subject deal gone bad ! \? summary small claims nntp posting host silver ucs indiana edu organization indiana university lines 24 news weeg uiowa edu \( randy \) writes head small claims may put money front filing fees , possibly local sheriff city deliver bad news end party end paying mistake interest time filing pay date think problem small claims court go location person 're taking action seems time money involved travelling \( unless person close \) would n't worth small claim really depends much money 're wrong , someone please correct ! \) kenneth simon dept sociology , indiana university internet kssimon indiana edu bitnet kssimon iubacs
gt0463b prism gatech edu \( michael davis smith \) subject real estate sale article hydra organization georgia institute technology lines 71 residential lot sale nice residential lot available approx 1 2 acre size located development called belvedere county , eastern north carolina , north wilmington lot near intra coastal golf tennis located development property belvedere also mar facility lot nearby facilities mentioned lot outright look like get back area anytime soon would like sell reason make offer interested please send e mail gt0463b prism gatech edu mike smith michael davis smith georgia institute technology , atlanta georgia , 30332 uucp ! decvax , hplabs , ncar , purdue , rutgers ! gatech ! prism ! gt0463b internet gt0463b prism gatech edu
sims vax cns muskingum edu subject misc radio related equipment organization muskingum college lines 112 lots misc radio related items sale ! still trying lighten load moving ! motorola vhf pager , digital , voice readout 15 2 capacitor checkers hp audio oscillator 5 hz 600 khz 1200 feet brand new 1 2 tv new connectors , 5 pieces lots gain mobile antennas vhf uhf uhf amp , input 75 mhz output 450 mhz , 30 watts service manual , came motorola make reasonable offer looking 40 shipping trade \? rca tac 300 uhf dash mount w service manual , great condition , currently frequency 462 725 repeater simplex pl 151 4 hz 100 qr 75 2 power supply sorensen , w service manual , 2 amp variable power supply , used 80 vdc weight 45 motorola tone remote model , works great , monitor button , 75 unit used remote base station two wires also tone remote board super , make offer , could used remote ! model trn w 100 motorola , mh 10 \( 4 \) w charger , speaker mic , leather case , currently 34 830 , w decks motorola radios reasonable esp take , anyone offer 10 trade \? pl reeds , \( 30 think \) also code plugs e mail need sell transmit tubes ge radios , new box 5 db gain uhf mobile antennas motorola , used , sold new 90 , make reasonable offer sell 3 45 shipping motorcycle control head cable frequency selector speaker one , 4 channel , believe came micom asking 20 shipping channel elements motorola , , 3 sets vhf , uhf , low band , mobile microphones ge , motorola , rca reasonable offer motorola dc remote adaptor model 75 still business band service manuals esp ge motorola , e mail details phone restrict toll boxes \( 2 \) use quarters dtmf mobile mic ge master pro uhf mobile , working , accessories , trunk mount radio 20 shipping 6' ge base cabinet w 19 rack cabinet vhf 19 rack base cabinet , johnson hd satellite dish jack arm 2 multi conductor wire , w shield , thickness approx 1 2 ge master pro mobile control heads cables eagle model 2 level sensor , tells full container prices include shipping ! items pickup size weight , locations eastern ohio interested e mail call jim sims sr \( 614 \) 439 9 pm eastern sims vax cns muskingum edu
pat wrs com \( patrick boylan \) subject airline ticket r us canada europe keywords airline ticket lines 69 nntp posting host delaware reply pat wrs com organization wind river systems one round trip ticket good travel usa canada europe , hawaii , latin america , fully transferable used originating intended use visit grandfather sick , died got use i'm looking 500 best offer , act fast gone april 15 matter patrick \( pat wrs com \)
beng cae wisc edu \( beng ting \) subject madison chicago italy air ticket wanted keywords madison chicago , milan , italy article doug 1993apr5 14385 organization u wisconsin madison college engineering lines 13 hi , looking round trip madison chicago milan \( italy \) air ticket anybody transferable ticket use please contact beng cae wisc edu open jaw ticket highly desired thank b ting beng cae wisc edu
magnus acs ohio state edu \( l gomez \) subject multisync 3d nec monitor sale article magnus 1993apr6 distribution usa organization ohio state university lines 8 nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu nec multisync 3d monitor sale great condition looks new 28 dot pitch svga monitor 15 compatible amiga graphics modes leave message interested make offer
phakt usc edu \( hung jen chen \) subject forsale sony 22 article phakt distribution na organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 4 nntp posting host phakt usc edu newsgroups rec audio , misc forsale distribution na subject forsale sony 22
jmilhoan magnus acs ohio state edu \( jt \) subject 8 105 sale article magnus 1993apr6 distribution usa organization ohio state university lines 32 nntp posting host bottom magnus acs ohio state edu 25mhz 68040 8 105 moto 56001 dsp \( perfect dimming shaking \) keyboard mouse \( course \) 2 1 installed 2 1 docs network system administration user 's reference applications next book , bruce webster \( new copy \) black modem cable 30 hd disks \( 10 still box , others backing apps \) need sell pronto get car \( engine locked \) ! machine runs great used house covered use days n't around 2 , 300 including federal express second day air , best offer , cod doorstep \( within continental us \) ! ! need sell , n't agree price , make offer , within reason \) thanks , jt \( please letters asking donate tax break \)
abou dam cee clarkson edu subject computer books sale \( updated list \) article news 1993apr6 organization clarkson university lines 76 nntp posting host dam cee clarkson edu updated list hi everybody following books sale books brand new find book like need information , please feel free send e mail buyers pays shipping fees thanks abou sun soe clarkson edu title windows programming introduction author william h murray , iii chris h pappas publish osborne mcgraw hill pp 650 cover soft note covers windows 3 0 asking 15 title harvard graphics complete reference author cary jensen anderson publish osborne mcgraw hill pp 1073 cover soft note covers releases 2 3 draw partner asking 15 title high performance interactive graphics modeling , rendering , animating author lee adams publish windcrest pp 402 cover soft note full examples programs basic asking 15 title science engineering applications ibm pc author r publish abacus pp 262 cover soft note lot examples basic asking 10 title graphics dot matrix printer get printer perform miracles author john w davenport publish simon schuster pp 461 cover soft note full examples programs basic asking 10 title programming turbo c author scott zimmerman beverly b zimmerman publish scott , co pp 637 cover soft note pages highlighted asking 10 title introduction computer graphics author john michael miller publish brooks cole engineering division pp 427 cover soft note example programs basic fortran asking 10 title hard disk pocket reference author kris publish osborne mcgraw hill pp 128 cover soft note pocket size asking 4
abou dam cee clarkson edu \( abou , damon 317 , 268 , 265 \) subject forsale wanted \( hd fax typewriter \) article news 1993apr6 organization clarkson university lines 29 nntp posting host dam cee clarkson edu article seven east sun com , jorge erex east sun com \( jorge lach sun bos hardware \) i'm looking buy following items fax machine plain one , n't need extras , basic model good working order sell stores dirt cheap , n't make offers like cost 599 'll sell 400 pc hard drive mfm type , 40 mbytes , half height seagate st 151 \( 3 5 \) machine , looking similar type following item sale electronic typewriter panasonic , memory , small lcd display i'm selling bundled panasonic computer interface typewriter connect pc parallel port \( sorry , cable \) works perfect , even windows \( tty printer \) 's great need send letter typewriter look stand alone mode 3 pitches , several effects like underline , bold , built dictionary character word line correction asking 150 typewriter interface jorge lach sun microsystems computer corporation jorge lach east sun com east coast division , chelmsford ,
phakt usc edu \( hung jen chen \) subject forsale sony 22 article phakt organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 21 nntp posting host phakt usc edu sony 22 portable forsale good condition , flawless ac adapter 6v dc power supply \( tested 9v dc \) factory adapter tested 12v dc \( ac 110v input \) time bought three years ago using , lot heat generated inside cd machine course would n't use risk baby 's life maybe 's many owners always complain portable machine going short time usage 9v dc factory suggested led display asking 55 plus shipping , contact harry interested
netcom com subject intel memory board sale article netcom organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 8 intel board \( 16 bit \) 2 megs ram would like sell asap please email offers interested ! thanks fred
mike uucp \( mike whitman \) subject womens bike sale organization pyramid technology , government systems lines 29 following bike sale type dave scott centurion 1989 model size 47 cm c c 105 cranks 165 cm 105 clips straps frame ii double steel gearing front 52 42 rear 24 22 19 17 15 13 seat terry womens gel seat computer 30 extras double water bottle cages extra rear tire 24 front rear setup wife asking 350 obo let know interested address thanks , mike michael c whitman national system engineer telecom pyramid technology corporation 1921 road , suite 250 vienna , va phone \( 703 \) 848 2050 pager \( 800 \) sky page pin mike va pyramid com uunet ! ! mike
student cwru edu \( george scott \) subject roland 50 sale organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio , usa lines 18 distribution usa nntp posting host student cwru edu sale roland 50 700 best offer excellent condition includes 1000 patches disk \( format \) buyer must pay cod shipping please e mail responses po cwru edu thanks george george scott \( student cwru edu \) \( po cwru edu \)
rob mother bates edu \( rob \) subject 3m sale organization bates college , , lines 10 longer use quarter inch tape backups , case unopened sale 'll sell lot , boxes 5 tapes rob rob mother bates edu computing support services bates college
subject books sale ann arbor , mi david ganglion ann arbor mi us \( david hwang \) reply david ganglion ann arbor mi us distribution na organization j services lines 68 books sale tally books want send message shipping us mail parcel post book rate payment advance cod accepted books good excellent condition , unless noted quantity discounts list updated continually latest list requested e mail list previous lists responsible typos ! ! ! ! new listing claimed , paid yet david hwang , ann arbor , michigan david ganglion ann arbor mi us list february 27 , 1993 computers using wordperfect 5 \( que , stewart \) 10 00 using clipper \( que , \) 10 00 80 assembly language programming 1 00 57 practical programs games basic 1 00 first book wordperfect 5 1 barnes 8 00 corvettes 1984 1986 car parts illustration catalog gm manual 7 50 secrets corvette detailing 7 50 's complete guide corvette fiberglass repair 7 50 corvette workshop manual haynes 84 87 7 50 chevrolet power catalog gm manual 6th edition 3 50 corvette driver owner guide 1953 1988 models 7 50 chevrolet small block v8 speed equipment buyers guide 10 00 's easy car care , 2nd edition 10 00 medicine study guide medical students 4 00 washington manual medical , 26th ed 10 00 respiratory physiology essentials west , 3rd ed 9 00 's medical , 5th ed hardcover 18 00 sold essentials human anatomy , 7th ed hardcover 18 00 sold cardiology reference book , 3rd ed 4 00 handbook therapy 1992 mandell 4 00 guide therapy 1991 sanford 1 00 free 10 00 med books comprehensive review basic sciences 10 00 sold get medical dental school , 3rd ed 2 00 sexual interactions , 2nd ed hardcover 25 00 call principles protocols 9 00 desk reference pdr , ed , 1992 hardcover 10 00 introduction general pathology spector , 2nd ed 8 00 medical school admissions strategy success 1982 4 00 getting medical school brown 1981 1 00 ten point plan college acceptance graham 1981 2 00 college accounting , 9th ed , 1972 carson hardcover 2 00 david w hwang , university michigan medical school 1050 wall street , suite telephone 313 663 ann arbor , michigan internet david ganglion ann arbor mi us
subject music sale vax1 umkc edu \( force strong jedi yet \) reply vax1 umkc edu \( force strong jedi yet \) organization university missouri kansas city nntp posting host vax1 umkc edu lines 23 following listed tapes priced sell friend mine wants get rid , let 's bids , n't \? tapes , btw ac dc back black good condition razor 's edge excellent poison open excellent flesh blood excellent guns roses appetite fair use ill 1 good use ill 2 good skid row tape ok , case cracked slave grind excellent excellent bon keep faith \( single \) excellent , jason
gregh hprnd rose hp com \( greg \) subject 40 meg ide harddrive organization hewlett packard roseville site lines 12 nntp posting host hprnd rose hp com x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 8 western digital 3 5 ide 40 meg hard drive 95 bo shipping greg \( 916 \) 785 gregh hprnd rose hp com mothra rose hp com
erenj com \( scott ferguson \) subject 's wrong picture \? nntp posting host erenj com organization exxon research engineering co lines 20 article 1993apr3 iscsvax uni edu , harter5255 iscsvax uni edu writes fellow netters , anybody awake \? someone posted message telling people stop posting computer ads misc forsale group , got thirty response , mention rash e mail i'm sure received yet , another person posts message subject line blow even worse text , 3 4 people guts say anything majority mention thread selling someone 's wife guy , therefore overly , little common sense would dictate offensive many women , really necessary scott ferguson exxon research engineering co project engineer new jersey opinions , official view exxon must ask question going play tonight \?
badger berkeley edu \( tony lin \) subject wanted spi 's war ring organization statistics dept , u c berkeley lines 9 distribution world nntp posting host badger berkeley edu subject line says i'm trying locate copy spi 's board game war ring anyone copy willing part \? thanks million tony \( stat berkeley edu \)
jiml ftcollinsco ncr com \( jim l \) subject need sharp , parts , information distribution world organization ncr microelectronics products division \( company \) lines 23 i'm looking sharp ti 2000 parts mine bad ram chip motherboard want see get parts sending sharp repairs one , drop line also , i'm trying set one friend needs read old 5 1 4 inch diskettes anyone pinout diskette expansion connector back 3 5 inch floppy box \? respond , please include phone number ca n't always get email always , thanks , jim lewczyk mailer address buggy ! reply jiml ftcollinsco ncr com james lewczyk 1 303 223 5100 ncr mpd fort collins , co jim lewczyk ftcollinsco ncr com
martimer bigwpi wpi edu \( jonathan \) subject 's wrong picture \? organization worcester polytechnic institute lines 25 nntp posting host bigwpi wpi edu article 1993apr5 erenj com erenj com \( scott ferguson \) writes article 1993apr3 iscsvax uni edu , harter5255 iscsvax uni edu writes fellow netters , anybody awake \? someone posted message telling people stop posting computer ads misc forsale group , got thirty response , mention rash e mail i'm sure received yet , another person posts message subject line blow even worse text , 3 4 people guts say anything majority mention thread selling someone 's wife guy , therefore overly , little common sense would dictate offensive many women , really necessary good point , thinking wanted sell calculator newsgroup called calculator , really computer , albeit small one , function one come car adds acceptable \? cant run without computers nowadays one draw line \? accept , live , care , avoid jonathan lots common sense choose ignore calvin jonathan random martimer wpi wpi edu
eos ncsu edu \( \) subject super sale \( snes \) organization north carolina state university lines 17 hello folks , 've super scope 6 sale , comes crt boxes instructions included 50 shipping included got month back used twice , , , , , , \( \) \( \) ooo \( \) ooo ooo \( \) ooo e mail address pobox , raleigh n c eos ncsu edu phone \( 919 \) 781 csc ncsu edu \( 9 00 pm \) math ncsu edu \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \)
opal tufts edu subject sale canon eos elan outfit lines 28 organization tufts university medford , sale canon eos elan outfit included eos elan body 28 80 mm ef 1 3 5 5 6 usm lens 100 300 mm ef 1 4 5 6 usm lens 2 b w uv filters circular filter canon rc 1 remote controller pentax lens cloth lowe pro camera bag galen lens bag lithium battery user guide canon eos elan new condition whole lot 800 \( firm \) contact david 617 227 617 956 please e mail queries talks phone
subject value kathy st pat stand \? miavx1 acs muohio edu \( bart \) organization shady rest home lines 10 article vincent iastate edu , iastate edu \( \) writes heard one newsgroups week two ago kathy ireland budweiser posters popular supposedly half size life size posters well , someone know got life size stand cardboard \( thick , damn good quality \) one , wondering worth anybody \? st pat posters last year \? stack twenty , two card board \( , sale , collect \)
galen med virginia edu \( victor v \) subject help get summary need advice keywords hd , cash check , delivery organization university virginia distribution usa lines 34 hi , everyone need advice best way get several weeks ago posted article behalf friend wanted external hd mac r e p called friend agreed price friend \( fluent english \) paid check , requesting r e p call back check arrives hd send well , check 3 24 phone r e p gave answering machine time reaction message left e mail address bounce answer know , r e p student university delaware e mail address , us postal address \( \? \) phone question best way proceed \? thanks advance advice sincerely , victor \( virginia edu \) p reason put r e p 's full name still hope p p get enough responses post summary , maybe even regular basis vl dr victor v tel \( 804 \) 924 2370 lab dept biochemistry internet virginia edu
coutsoft cheshire oxy edu \( michael coutsoftides \) subject sampler sale organization occidental college , los angeles , ca usa lines 17 ok people , really need sell sampler pay bills , i'm even going include 3 sample cds worth least 200 separately deal 's ii standard memory 16 bit stereo sampling 's least 24 voice pol , 's got brand new connor \( sp \? \) 170 meg internal scsi drive \( 4 wk old , never used \) works perfect runs perfect addition access friends sound library sounds available 1600 sample cd 's based dance house techno stuff email call 213 341 thanks mike
gsfc nasa gov \( nigel \) subject amiga 3000 , etc sale 4 2 93 reply dwilson csugrad cs vt edu 's message 2 apr 93 20 09 59 gmt organization goddard space flight center , greenbelt , md , usa lines 26 article isg csugrad cs vt edu dwilson csugrad cs vt edu \( david wilson \) writes sale 5pm 4 02 93 1 amiga 25mhz , unix compatible machine w 100 meg hard drive , 4 meg ram , monitor , keyboard \( esc keys broken \) asking price 1700 obo mind asking 're selling used machine damaged keyboard price brand new a4000 030 \( a4000 4 megs ide hd hd floppy v3 0 os 1899 \) \? 'd like get locally something reasonable like less 1k without monitor brand new 25mhz 50 meg hd hd floppy 2 1 rom n't running 1400 considering 's damaged , real old version os 'll offer 700 n't laugh a2000 n't worth 250 300 days n nigel sig construction
doug um cc umich edu subject sale book life multi volume book set unopened organization university michigan lines 6 distribution world nntp posting host 141 211 110 79 x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d17 x xxdate mon , 5 apr 93 23 26 58 gmt wrong ! guess closer 800 new ! probably still sell implied 300 obo email want specifics really attractive set books , kind bible encyclopedia set also email know books post information
khiet ecn purdue edu \( peter thanh khiet vu \) subject wanted keywords wanted organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 4 looking good used window air small one call 495 \( peter \) 'll talk email khiet cn ecn
khiet ecn purdue edu \( peter thanh khiet vu \) subject wanted futon keywords wanted futon organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 5 looking large futon frame call peter 495 e mail khiet cn ecn
radley gibbs oit unc edu \( keith radley \) subject misc electronic summary electronics sale nntp posting host gibbs oit unc edu organization university north carolina chapel hill distribution usa lines 20 panasonic kx , combo black cordless speaker phone one new 160 , 100 shipping obo curtis mathes vhs vcr remote included works universal remotes works great replaced stereo vcr paid 300 years ago , sell 125 delivered obo radio shack stereo amp 2 inputs , tone , left right volume speakers included 20 plus shipping interested either mail radley gibbs unc edu major computer science eith radley minor english radley gibbs oit unc edu computer amiga 3000 university north carolina
ultb isc rit edu \( c x \) subject bernoulli 44 removeable scsi drive disks nntp posting host ultb gw isc rit edu organization rochester institute technology distribution usa storage space sale iomega 44 mb removeable hd sale w 16 cartridges total storage space comes 750 mb 6 cartridges still original , unused note compatible 45 cartridges scsi interface required plugs right back macintoshes , n't controller ibm utilities mac mac , ! ton software disks n't use anymore , sold mac system stuff included pd stuff info mac site , lots gif 's , lots sound effects \( 1 entire disk sounds \) asking 900 , plus shipping information , send mail \( ultb isc rit edu \) call \( 716 \) 427 ask cheers chris ultb isc rit edu ritvax isc rit edu
radley gibbs oit unc edu \( keith radley \) subject electronics summary nntp posting host gibbs oit unc edu organization university north carolina chapel hill distribution usa lines 20 panasonic kx , combo black cordless speaker phone one new 160 , 100 shipping obo curtis mathes vhs vcr remote included works universal remotes works great replaced stereo vcr paid 300 years ago , sell 125 delivered obo radio shack stereo amp 2 inputs , tone , left right volume speakers included 20 plus shipping interested either mail radley gibbs unc edu major computer science eith radley minor english radley gibbs oit unc edu computer amiga 3000 university north carolina
tuba calpoly edu \( brennan lawrence pang \) subject hard drives , etc sale organization california polytechnic state university , san luis obispo lines 35 hard drives \( drives include manuals , warranty \) fujitsu 1 2 scsi hard drive 1000 quantum 240 meg scsi prodrive 350 fujitsu 90 meg scsi hard drive 175 apple zero footprint hard drive case power supply 75 video apple 8 24gc \( \) graphics card software \( init \) millions colors , fast ! 700 hardcopy apple imagewriter ii printer spare print head \( n't cheap \) 300 fax machine 9600 baud leather travel case many accessories 200 discuss purchase items , call john \( 408 \) 268 1769 get answering machine , please leave message name phone number , letting know piece interested john \( 408 \) 268 1769 reply account !
andrew cmu edu subject custom resume disk ! ! organization freshman , mathematics , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 29 nntp posting host po5 andrew cmu edu custom resume disk ! macintosh ibm compatible ! never pay high cost copy service completely develop format custom resume package mail disk transmit information via electronic mail within 48 hours ! 25 years experience employment industry member national resume writer 's association leave burden developing resume us ! easily custom edit information target company position complete 40 00 package includes custom developed resume custom cover letter custom follow letter custom interview thank letter custom job acceptance letter custom job decline letter custom resignation letter laser printed copies high quality paper available upon request contact vicki burns via e mail unix andrew cmu edu telephone \( 216 \) 493
pfc jungle com \( paul f \) subject seagate hard drive forsale organization , inc lines 10 nntp posting host jungle com brand new never used seagate x hard drive forsale paid 135 \( includes mounting brackets \) bought ended buying new computer bro takes
pat wrs com \( patrick boylan \) subject 1985 5 porsche 944 keywords porsche 944 lines 69 nntp posting host delaware reply pat wrs com organization wind river systems distribution usa 1985 5 porsche 944 turbo trim \( \) graphite black around excellent condition removable factory sunroof leather interior new c new timing belt bra miles obo patrick patrick boylan , wind river systems , alameda , ca pat wrs com
telesciences com \( consultant \) subject bunch pc stuff sale organization telesciences co systems , inc distribution na lines 35 got things want get rid paradise casper ega monitor 1 12 mhz motherboard \( dram sipp \) 1 16 mhz \( dram \) 1 hayes prodigy special external modem 1 1meg sipp 1 256k sipp 2 megs dram \( believe 's 1m , one 100 80ns , absolutely sure \) also xt 640k , serial board , hercules board amber monitor thing system missing power supply make offer stuff , thanx contributing mitch 's v 32bis modem fund mitch note cross posted several forsale followups redirected back ! 's reason n't read groups mitch gorman telesciences com things seem crack mother earth , blazing hot , molten rock spills land lava 's lover boots away
radley gibbs oit unc edu \( keith radley \) subject electronics summary new address nntp posting host gibbs oit unc edu organization university north carolina chapel hill distribution usa lines 21 panasonic kx , combo black cordless speaker phone one new 160 , 100 shipping obo curtis mathes vhs vcr remote included works universal remotes works great replaced stereo vcr paid 300 years ago , sell 125 delivered obo radio shack stereo amp 2 inputs , tone , left right volume speakers included 20 plus shipping interested either mail radley gibbs oit unc edu call , keith , 919 968 ps made type email address first posting correct major computer science eith radley minor english radley gibbs oit unc edu computer amiga 3000 university north carolina
hatton socrates ucsf edu \( tom hatton \) subject microsoft dos 6 0 upgrade sale organization ucsf computer graphics lab lines 19 adn6285 ritvax isc rit edu writes article eve usc edu , yuanchie eve usc edu \( yuan hsu \) writes ms dos 6 0 upgrade sale best offer 45 \( opened , unregistered \) , anyone care enlighten us whether dos6 0 worth upgrading \? good 's compression , turned \? nice nasty features \? according reports , n't dos yet , n't utilities \( qemm , stacker , pctools , norton , \) dos6 may worth people dos5 , sort utility , dos6 n't offer much 'd never know usual hype marketing able create , however \) tom hatton hatton cgl ucsf edu \( 415 \) 476
aol com subject fax via e mail article aol organization utexas mail news gateway lines 57 nntp posting host cs utexas edu finally fax service internet users continental u without kind service provided information system international based , indiana aol com internet user , credit automatically approved start sending faxes right 1 send fax use service , e mail aol com following format name phone number mailing address number send fax recipient 's name company address phone number recipient \( optional \) fax content fax sent within 24 hours every fax include standard cover sheet free charge contains \( 1 \) name \( 2 \) phone number \( 3 \) address \( 4 \) recipient 's name company upon sending fax , receipt sent record important first time use fax service , must include following paragraph beginning e mail hereby authorize information system international open fax account agree pay charges incurred upon receiving monthly bill 2 format acceptable plain ascii format rich text format \( rtf \) acceptable \( 1 \) plain ascii format , times new roman fonts 12 point size used \( 2 \) rtf format , fax document appear exactly would appear local laser printer almost word processing software pc , , sun workstation , etc , save document rtf format 3 pay first time use fax service , open account name month balance balance 50 00 whichever comes first 4 cost cost continental u \( excluding hawaii alaska \) 1 50 first page , 0 75 additional page fax include cover sheet free plan use service , save entire text posted
subject price quote wanted sam halperin cccbbs uucp \( sam halperin \) reply sam halperin cccbbs uucp \( sam halperin \) distribution world organization cincinnati computer connection cincinnati , oh 513 752 1055 lines 46 sam halperin cccbbs uceng 486 dx 50 mhz zero insertion force socket empty drive socket eisa motherboard 256k cache 2 32 bit eisa slots 2 32 bit vesa local bus slots 4 16 bit isa slots 8 mb 70ns ram 8 simms sockets filled 1mb strips \( 0 sockets open \) 32 bit eisa ide hard drive controller 330 meg ide hard disk drive w 64k cache \( 12ms \) diamond viper weitek 9000 vesa local bus graphics card w 2mb 15 mag mx15f monitor 2 serial \( uart \) , 1 1 game ports full tower case 250 watt power supply 5 x 5 25 bays 2 x 3 5 bays 2 x hard drive bays 1 2mb 5 25 1 3 5 floppy drives enhanced 101 key keyboard hi resolution 400 dpi serial mouse ms dos 5 0 ms windows 3 1 newer ami bios joint data motherboard 30 day money back unconditional 2 year parts warranty lifetime labor warranty one year nationwide site service system currently comtrade , company highest \( dell , gateway ibm \) awards recent pc magazine reviews price must highly competitive , without sacrificing quality standards listed please respond sam halperin cccbbs uceng via e mail
wchau acsu buffalo edu \( chun \) subject mfm controller , copy card sale organization ub lines 13 nntp posting host eng buffalo edu 16 bit mfm fd hd controller 25 b copy card w software cable 30 b \( copy protected software \) interested , please reply account chun crazy world ! internet wchau eng buffalo edu uucp ! rutgers , uunet ! cs buffalo edu ! wchau internet wchau cs buffalo edu bitnet wchau cs buffalo edu ubvm bitnet want die young \? know mean \)
ll12 quads uchicago edu \( li liu \) subject florida vacation package forsale article midway 1993apr6 211 reply ll12 midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 24 package called sun sand , includes 5 days 4 nights \( 2 2 \) accommodations orlando daytona beach hotels selected major hotel chains family resorts two adults three children fully transferable expires 09 93 , 20 one year needs 45 days advance reservation \( esp peak season \) , reservation department offer coupon book may give saving 150 price bought 199 , good deal peak seasons , turn reasonable offers must sell n't include transportation pay 3 day hotel tax please e mail respond
jmilhoan magnus acs ohio state edu \( jt \) subject custom resume disk ! ! nntp posting host bottom magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 11 article andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu writes custom resume disk ! macintosh ibm compatible ! never pay high cost copy service completely develop format custom resume package mail disk blah blah blah deleted 's \? carnegie mellon \?
curry doe carleton ca \( simon curry \) subject house sale , mediterranean coast spain summary house sale , , spain keywords house , , spain organization dept electronics , carleton university lines 35 mediterranean investment property sale , spain \( costa blanca \) large lot \( pine \) hills noise 2 bedrooms , living dining room sun porch kitchen bathroom large lot surrounded traditional white wall wrought iron gates room ground pool 2 minutes sea supermarket 10 minutes town full amenities area specially favourable , mentioned climate report seat \( fiat \) car , 3 years old may included , deal ideal retirement family holiday resort must sell family reasons asking 150 , 000 reply email call canada \( 613 \) 591 simon curry , executive director tele \( 613 \) 991 9001 royal society canada fax \( 613 \) 991 po box , ottawa email curry doe carleton ca simon curry tele \( 613 \) 991 9001 royal society canada fax \( 613 \) 991 po box , ottawa email curry doe carleton ca
dietrijj mentor cc purdue edu \( dietrijj \) subject delay sampler organization purdue university computing center lines 8 hey ! interested buying digital delay pedal , preferably capable sampling infinite repeat \( 're familiar phil , want mimic , least close possible , concert , e , click pedal , play something , click , played clicks repeats infinitely leads \) anyway , let know jason dietrijj mentor cc purdue edu
wil chin launchpad unc edu \( wilson chin \) subject sale nntp posting host lambada oit unc edu organization university north carolina extended bulletin board service lines 19 article netcom com netcom com \( bryan davis \) writes sony tcd d3 dat walkman sale hardly used , still warrantee comes optical digital input output well standard rca analog cables includes battery , charger , ac adaptor 650 00 best offer inform readers sony introduced new , tcd d7 smaller less expensive d3 also , d7 coaxial jack d3 lacks oh , d3 always available mail order houses less 700 dollars new new model coming , suspect obsolete d3 selling even less opinions expressed necessarily university north carolina chapel hill , campus office information technology , experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu 152 2 22 80
radian natinst com \( john lange \) subject wanted used audio mixer distribution usa nntp posting host zippy radian com organization radian corporation , austin , texas lines 9 i'm looking used inexpensive audio mixer need least 4 channels stereo input 1 channel stereo output , would prefer 8 input channels channel needs least volume control 'll consider buying broken equipment mixer needs fairly small \( n't got lot space \) john lange \( zippy radian com \) radian corp \( 512 \) 454 box austin , tx 1088
hans meyer hmmeyer silver ucs indiana edu subject logitech scanman 256 organization indiana university lines 15 would like sell logitech hand held 256 gray scale scanner originally bought toy practical use hardly ever used package includes board scan mate software image editing software original manuals , box , etc originally bought 350 jan '92 selling 150 interested , let know hans meyer
suresh pa dec com \( suresh \) subject twin size mattress frame sale 75 organization digital equipment corporation lines 29 distribution ba nntp posting host pa dec com ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! twin size mattress , box spring frame sale type mattress \? excellent condition 2 yrs old well maintained come pick , stuff located asking 75 contact suresh \( 415 \) 617 3522 w \( 415 \) 324 h e mail suresh pa dec com ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! suresh suresh pa dec com n n dd digital equipment corp \( 415 \) 617 3522 \(
hickson pop psu edu \( darryl hickson \) subject 16 space rack sale \( lower price \) article genesis distribution usa organization penn state population research institute lines 7 nntp posting host pop psu edu posting message friend mine computer account , questions please call dan \( 814 \) 238 equipment rack sale 16 space eia rack \( 19 \) , carpet covered , wheels 125 shipping
hickson pop psu edu \( darryl hickson \) subject dj equipment , nes carts , cordless phone sale \( lower prices \) article genesis distribution usa organization penn state population research institute lines 35 nntp posting host pop psu edu things sell items great condition prices include shipping questions contact e mail call \( 814 \) 234 darryl dj equipment mixer case \( pop rails \) 60 \( 2 \) patch cords \( 3 meters , gold tips \) 15 records casualties war \( 12 inch single \) eric b 2 get \( 12 inch single \) boo ya tribe 2 black 's magic salt 2 heart break new edition 2 right stuff williams 2 misc toshiba cordless phone 50 books \( book priced marked \) 1 management p g buck 5 making \( 1st edition \) 2 statistics fresh approach sanders , r eng 5 3 quantitative approaches r levin , rubin 5 management j
jb access digex com \( john baker \) subject sale u robotics 2400 baud modem 25 obo article access distribution na organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 12 nntp posting host access digex net upgrading computer systems fax modems , selling 2 2400 1200 300 baud usr modems without fax error correction one internal \( 25 \) , external \( 30 \) u robotics \( highest rated modem manufacturer \) add 4 shipping pick washington dc area offers welcome \( would trade either simm \) john baker
kuhub cc ukans edu subject 4 sale computer misc , books , rpg stuff , etc article kuhub 1993apr6 organization university kansas academic computing services lines 85 article 1993apr6 kuhub cc ukans edu , kuhub cc ukans edu writes following sale \( duh \) golden image b w hand scanner iii 70 amiga vision authorizing software 30 baud bandit terminal communication software 10 bard 's tale iii thief fate graphic rpg 15 f 29 flight simulator 15 future wars fantasy graphic rpg 15 honda simulation 10 phantom labor models japanese models 15 rpg books \( english \) invasion 10 southern cross 10 books \( english \) fox 's teeth exploits mckinnon 's raiders 5 gray death legion 5 mercenary 's handbook 15 15 15 15 ad books monster manual 5 monster manual ii 5 5 lots books japanese english subjects japanese culture , asian art history , japanese language , socio linguistics , , linguistics , physics , \( \) , unix amiga programming , economics \( micro , macro , trade finance , american economic development \) , philosophy \( language , ethics , , science \) 's something think might interested let know 'll tell kuhub cc ukans edu james miller sig ho ga ka enlightenment happens \? kuhub cc ukans edu james miller sig ho ga ka enlightenment happens \?
mace kilowatt uucp \( mace \) subject intel ex modem organization kilowatt computers , deer park , li lines 12 sale intel baud modem external v32 good working condition never problems 160 obo leave daytime number fastest response kilowatt bbs deer park , li ny
davis b11 b11 ingr com \( chris davis \) subject sale trade ibm games organization intergraph corp huntsville , al lines 29 ibm games sale trade adventure eric legend 35 king 's quest v sierra cd rom edition 35 sports michael jordan flight electronic arts 35 mike 's ultimate football accolade 30 david 's 30 strategy risk virgin 10 software comes original packaging manuals price includes ground shipping continental us trade current games send list chris davis b11 ingr com 205 730
fields cis ohio state edu \( jonathan david fields \) subject misc stuff sale article penguin distribution usa organization ohio state university dept computer info science lines 46 nntp posting host penguin cis ohio state edu misc items sale walkman model hs , 1 year old , mint condition , hardly used , , 3 band equalizer , super bass , dolby noise reduction , fm tuner paid 70 asking 40 shipping mount plate sony model cpm , mounting plate sony portable cd players portable plugs car lighter , snaps onto bottom sony cd player portable cd player , perfect condition also throw cassette adapter condition paid 45 asking 30 shipping fm factory stereo toyota fm radio , cassette cassette deck , digital tuning , like new condition car 6 months , car stereo asking 60 shipping car speakers sherwood 5 1 4 two way car speakers , car 7 months , 5 1 4 inch excellent condition , paid 65 asking 40 shipping 4 inch factory speakers toyota excellent condition asking 20 shipping nintendo nintendo game boy , light boy , tetris , super mario land , gameboy nfl football , adventure , hyper runner , 4 years games old working condition , asking 70 shipping accessories whole internet whole internet user 's guide catalog ed krol , book guide using internet , information resources paid 30 asking 20 shipping microsoft never used , came computer , asking 60 shipping visual basic microsoft windows , never used , came computer , quick c sells new student edition 95 asking 70 shipping please fields cis ohio state edu thanks , jonathan fields
cis ohio state edu \( chia fang lim \) subject vacation organization ohio state university dept computer info science lines 24 distribution usa nntp posting host maple cis ohio state edu hi netters , following vacation packages sale 1 bahamas vacation 2 round trip tickets , grand bahamas double occupancy , hotel accomodation 27 per person per night 2 orlando florida las vegas reno lake tahoe vacation one round trip airline ticket \( major us airports 3 mentioned destinations \) hotel accomodation 1 2 people \( 3 days 2 nights \) interested , drop mail cis ohio state edu
dtmedin catbyte b30 ingr com \( dave medin \) subject shipping costs reply dtmedin catbyte b30 ingr com organization intergraph corporation , huntsville al lines 71 article 745 usenet ins cwru edu , po cwru edu \( jung \) writes previous article , oas olivetti com \( tom \) says recently bought musical instrument internet shipped via ups ground shipping done mail box service , mailboxes , etc somewhat surprised price , compared prices shipping way shipping directly ups summary making condemnations merely presenting facts may draw conclusions 've encountered thing mailboxes , etc suggest anyone use original ups service possible shipping virginia cleveland around 20 12 pounds , c 8 00 , opposed 4 50 ups 'll third opinion outfit franchise , buy net pick shipping costs , 'll specify pick normal ups charges \( delivered directly ups \) , 've burned 10 shipping charges 2 49 pkg never use mailing service unless n't right box buyer needs whatever immediately 'll also tell person , agreed pick shipping , going things watch consider rates 5 30 higher ups direct non ups \( truck \) package , quoted rate 85 fed ex economy air 85 weight ! rps \( package company , many cities \) wanted 18 guess got mailbox operator told telling truth rates , said rps unreliable \( 've used problems \) , etc right cod check goes mailing service local mailbox takes sweet time mailing check additional 3 00 ups cod charge deal \) packages 100 , charge double ups charges insurance 've never claim , netters \( ralph seguin \? \) told horror stories package traces done mailbox mailbox local mailbox operator told lying asked rates stratospheric compared direct ups ever check \? probably ups ground rates come close fed ex 's economy air rate , fed ex pick ! ups pick 5 charge areas ! dave medin phone \( 205 \) 730 3169 \( w \) ssd networking \( 205 \) 837 1174 \( h \) intergraph corp gd3004 internet dtmedin catbyte b30 ingr com huntsville , al 35894 uucp uunet ! ingr ! b30 ! catbyte ! dtmedin everywhere look \( least around office \) opinions expressed mine \( machine \)
arthur noguerola vos stratus com subject heavy metal \( magazine \) sale \( music \) organization stratus computer inc , marlboro lines 19 nntp posting host m21 eng stratus com cleaning coffers virtually mint collection heavy metal magazine music mag really mag artwork , et al jam packed amazing sci fi fantasy artwork many masters mint exception 3 split seam cover otherwise perfect , cut outs missing pages sep , nov dec issues 1978 , issues 1979 , 1980 , 1981 , 1982 , 1983 jan thru sep 1984 \( 72 issues believe \) break sold single lot send offers shipping included , pretty heavy course local \( mass , usa \) come get 'em person arthur noguerola vos stratus com
arthur noguerola vos stratus com subject sale old jazz magazines organization stratus computer inc , marlboro lines 40 nntp posting host m21 eng stratus com following jazz magazines go best offer received shipping included , pretty heavy course local \( mass , usa \) come get 'em person great condition ! ! go one lot break sep 1947 , feb 1948 , june 1948 , nov 1950 , dec 1950 , june 1952 nov 1953 jan 15 , 1947 \( newspaper sized folded \) jan 18 , 1962 , feb 15 , 1962 , dec 19 , 1963 , mar 12 , 1964 , apr 9 , 1964 , may 7 , 1964 , may 21 , 1964 , jun 4 , 1964 , jul 16 , 1964 , sep 10 , 1964 , dec 17 , 1964 , dec 31 , 1964 , aug 26 , 1965 , oct 7 , 1965 , oct 21 , 1965 , dec 16 , 1965 , dec 30 , 1965 , jan 13 , 1966 , apr 21 , 1966 , jul 28 , 1966 , sep 8 , 1966 , dec 29 , 1966 , feb 9 , 1967 , feb 23 , 1967 , jun 15 , 1967 , nov 15 , 1967 , apr 4 , 1968 , aug 8 , 1968 , sep 5 , 1968 , oct 3 , 1968 , oct 31 , 1968 , feb 6 , 1969 , mar 6 , 1969 , may 15 , 1969 , jun 12 , 1969 , jul 10 , 1969 , jul 24 , 1969 , aug 21 , 1969 , sep 4 , 1969 , dec 2 , 1969 , may 14 , 1970 , may 28 , 1970 , jun 11 , 1970 , jun 25 , 1970 , jul 9 , 1970 , aug 19 , 1971 , mar 15 , 1973 , mar 29 , 1973 , may 10 , 1973 , may 24 , 1973 , nov 1985 also toss \( free \) jazz journal \( feb 1979 , apr 1979 \) coda magazine \( jun 1985 , dec 1985 \) arthur noguerola vos stratus com
asuacad bitnet subject cds priced immediate sale article asuacad 93096 organization arizona state university lines 10 hey , following cds still available offers trades considered lost brotherhood waves break hearts joe live charles diversity thanks , rich
rosie uh edu \( lee \) subject microsoft dos 6 0 upgrade sale article rosie distribution world organization university houston lines 26 nntp posting host rosie uh edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article hatton cgl ucsf edu , hatton socrates ucsf edu \( tom hatton \) writes adn6285 ritvax isc rit edu writes , anyone care enlighten us whether dos6 0 worth upgrading \? good 's compression , turned \? nice nasty features \? according reports , n't dos yet , n't utilities \( qemm , stacker , pctools , norton , \) dos6 may worth people dos5 , sort utility , dos6 n't offer much 'd never know usual hype marketing able create , however \) imho , seems worth 40 upgrade doublespace seems bit stacker 2 0 \( 've replaced \) memmaker nowhere near aggressive qemm , n't hose system like qemm \( least n't yet \) microsoft antivirus latest version \( reasonably recent one \) mine aged , quite welcome ms dos 6 0 ai n't end , operating systems 's better sharp stick eye , unless happen sort thing \) lee jetson uh edu undergraduate scum university houston , usa freedom choice every choice mine
jhunix hcf jhu edu \( dave webb \) subject electronics baseball sale trade best offer article jhunix distribution na organization homewood academic computing , johns hopkins university , baltimore , md , usa lines 9 nntp posting host jhunix hcf jhu edu anyone 's still interested , one electronic game left sale trade 's baseball \( tan case \) includes 9 volt battery original manual ! able sell soccer basketball 2 70 00 traded football game genesis cart , happy entertain offers cash genesis carts way , baseball excellent condition works perfectly thanx advance , dave
astro ocis temple edu \( paul wood \) subject forsale genesis games organization temple university lines 20 nntp posting host astro ocis temple edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 kelvin williams \( uucp \) wrote games forsale \( trade \) sonic ii \( two copies \) manuals cases 25 \( brand new ! \) hello , interested sonic ii send address get mail bounced back host error please reply uucp \( subject games \) \( paul wood \) \( astro ocis temple edu \)
02106 ravel udel edu \( samuel ross \) subject tech books sale ! ! ! cheap ! ! ! nntp posting host ravel udel edu organization university delaware distribution usa lines 26 someone please buy books ! ! ! ! ! asking much ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! send offer ! reasonable offer refused ! first come first served ! want get rid books ! ! ! make offer ! ! ! ! ! calculus w analytic geometry authur b simon \( copyright date 1982 \) , avg condition still readable ! give 8 \( shipping \) ! writing good software fortran , graham smith 12 \( \) general chemistry principles modern applications , r petrucci , fourth edition big book ! \( book following 2 books 20 3 ! ! \) solutions manual chemistry book study guide chemistry book send offers via email 02106 chopin udel edu sam 02106 chopin udel edu
donald dswalker ebay sun com \( walker \) subject items sale article male 6g reply donald dswalker ebay sun com distribution world organization sun microsystems , inc lines 19 nntp posting host dswalker ebay sun com items sale 1 howard miller clock chimes like grandfather clock 250 2 painting tiger snow beautiful painting , tiger looks like jump canvas get 200 3 diamond ring , size 10 500 3 rows b gold call email donald walker hm 408 263 wk 408 276 3618
cs ruu nl \( marcel \) subject rolex organization utrecht university , dept computer science lines 28 jammer ! dit een het al van van de correct , wil ik met dit dat ik , marcel , zal met van het rolex die kan ik jammer foreign people ca n't even understand dutch \? ! \? spite earlier mailing fake rolex 's , announce n't information available longer wo n't use trade name rolex anymore fake models , g
ecs umass edu subject mazda glc sale lines 5 want sell 1980 mazda glc 300 b excellent working condition passed inspection sun roof marks body contact soon ecs umass edu \( 413 549
feng qian launchpad unc edu \( feng qian \) subject irwin 250 owners n't miss deal tapes article samba 1993apr6 organization university north carolina extended bulletin board service lines 16 nntp posting host lambada oit unc edu irwin suggests use pre formatted tapes tape drives , often ca n't successfully format tape need bulk erase format anyway , new , preformatted tapes irwin 250 tape drives irwin series 120 250mb , 16 ea new never used 3m , format 16 ea email interested feng opinions expressed necessarily university north carolina chapel hill , campus office information technology , experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu 152 2 22 80
jhunix hcf jhu edu \( dave webb \) subject gameboy games trade genesis , game gear gameboy games \( \) organization homewood academic computing , johns hopkins university , baltimore , md , usa lines 30 distribution na nntp posting host jhunix hcf jhu edu following gameboy games available trade ! ii bases loaded blades steel beach volleyball world cup soccer tennis spiderman double dribble 5 5 basketball looking genesis games missile command \( gameboy \) game gear games please leave e mail interested ! thanx dave webb p i'm still waiting hear allen jr trading mb volleyball missile command please get touch also waiting hear \( cunyvm cuny edu \) genesis trade
magnus acs ohio state edu \( michael e ellis \) subject web spiderman auction update summary auction update keywords high bid 52 00 article magnus 1993apr6 distribution usa organization ohio state university lines 30 nntp posting host top magnus acs ohio state edu web spiderman auction list issues 1 92 , 1 7 set complete set \( enough interest \) books quickly evaluated grade books vf nm unless noted \( putting books new bags boards \( 2 books per bag \) \) 2 small dinks spine 4 spine slightly rolled 5 2 small crease front cover , dinks spine 13 slight tear edge front cover 14 spine 15 cover pages humidity 19 form water damage 21 cover flat 22 shipping smudge cover 28 spine 30 3 small dinks spine 33 spine dinks 35 tiny crease top left corner cover 38 dinks spine 43 paper clip mark 45 2 small spine dinks 47 slight spine roll , spine dinks 52 back cover crease 92 cover annual 1 slight spine roll , cover marks current high bid 52 00 bidder jon \( jon \) successful bidder \( assuming one \) books sent ups , cod cash money order 6 50 added total successful bid cover charges , bid accordingly thanks mike
bgsu edu \( \) subject nintendo games control deck article andy distribution na organization bowling green state univ lines 35 forsale nintendo control deck two controllers gun , one controller grips attached nes connect composite monitor tv audio video rca input jacks needs repairs 25 best offer games sale 15 baseball 15 bowl 15 double dribble 15 wayne gretzky hockey 15 golf 10 super mario duck hunt 15 super mario ii 20 super mario iii 15 teenage mutant ninja turtles arcade game 15 3 10 10 25 super bowl 175 total , 'll give best offer throw control deck 'll also accept best offer games individually oldest two years old , less year old email andy bgsu edu phone 1 \( 419 \) 372 tom warning , signature construction , enter risc
eric enterprise bih harvard edu \( eric j hansen \) subject preamp cd player forsale article eric organization center clinical computing boston , lines 28 forsale proton 3 5 years old , originally 299 , asking 150 best offer inputs tape 1 , tape 2 , cd , phono , video tuner separate listen record bass eq , filter mono switch high quality volume excellent condition , original boxes manual sony 88 portable one designed play mini cd 's play normal size cds , disk sticks side works well , may skip occasionally tuned \( heads aligned , cleaned , etc \) excellent condition used much carrying case original list \( think \) 300 , 'll take 80 best offer would good office sit desk please email eric enterprise bih harvard edu telephone \( 617 \) 278 eric eric j hansen eric enterprise bih harvard edu center clinical computing boston , \( 617 \) 732 dos mac programming , ultrix administration , general chaos
isr harvard edu \( andrew baker \) subject heavy metal \( magazine \) sale \( music \) article 1993apr6 organization harvard university , cambridge , lines 23 article transfer stratus com arthur noguerola vos stratus com writes cleaning coffers virtually mint collection heavy metal magazine music mag really mag artwork , et al jam packed amazing sci fi fantasy artwork many masters mint exception 3 split seam cover otherwise perfect , cut outs missing pages sep , nov dec issues 1978 , issues 1979 , 1980 , 1981 , 1982 , 1983 jan thru sep 1984 \( 72 issues believe \) break sold single lot send offers shipping included , pretty heavy course local \( mass , usa \) come get 'em person arthur noguerola vos stratus com send offers guy , keep mind get mint back issues publisher 4 5 plus shipping , except first 2 three issues
access digex com \( david n elliott \) subject computer stuff sale article access distribution usa organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 25 nntp posting host access digex net sale baltimore dc area one mac 2x 8 80 radius 24 bit color dual page display adapter color scanner 10 color postscript printer 2400 baud modem 360 k 1 2meg floppies 30 software packages including pagemaker , quark express , style , photoshop , etc 7000 obo one compaq lte 286 internal modem 1 5 meg ram 20 hard drive 750 obo one compaq 286 5 meg ram 40 meg hard drive 950 obo one compaq motherboard make offer returned compaq service six 9600 baud modems built make offer 20 100 cpu multi user system offer contact elliott \( 703 \) 329 office \( 410 \) 992 home digex com internet
jrm cbnews cb att com \( john r miller \) subject depth sounder forsale keywords sale depth article cbnews 1993apr6 distribution na organization lines 34 hi , depth sounder sale used 1 season parts included well installation instructions even packed original box came damage unit transducer fact , transducer mounted inside hull piece pipe glued hull led sheltered life transducer mounted either inside hull , cannot placed hole drilled hull fully waterproof fits 2 hole \( 's installed \) standard dashboard reads depth backlit lcd display adjustable shallow water alarm built changing instruments another manufacturer outputs 0183 information little depth sounder works fine stable usually priced low 130 catalogs , paid 150 first 80 takes , best offer john r miller 22 , toy
rutgers edu \( \) subject south jersey condo keywords forsale condo jersey article apr 6 14 09 43 1993 organization rutgers univ , new brunswick , n j lines 37 recently graduated looking move bigger house , leaving condo sell originally listed 59 , 000 , listed 54 , 900 following list features master bedroom bedroom living room dining room kitchen w extra 1 full modern bathroom full carpeting new excluding bath , oil hot water heating converting gas summer , central air , condo fee 183 mo including heat hot water pool tennis courts addition washer , dryer condo , refrigerator , , 2 ceiling fans , window treatments n't understand ca n't call curtains , mantle ! large storage room private basement , plenty parking 'd like free bliss regular , please call kathleen sullivan sayers real estate agency 609 546 'll arrange showing disclaimer subject errors , changes , , , sales without notice posting benefit request commercial agency simply want flames sent dev null thanks , clam rutgers edu paul g nelson systems hardware integration technician
magnus acs ohio state edu \( ching andrea su \) subject software unlimited \? article magnus 1993apr6 organization ohio state university lines 12 nntp posting host top magnus acs ohio state edu sorry waste bandwidth anyone know software mail order company called software unlimited \? ordered software charged credit card never send package call many times nobody answer phone also check computer shoppers found n't advertise anymore know still business know contact , please tell thank much ching su
sage cc purdue edu \( joe wall \) subject incredible car incredible price article mentor distribution usa organization purdue university computing center lines 18 brother preparing pay another year college expenses asked post 1987 alfa romeo gold milano model v 6 engine power everything ! seats 4 comfortably looks runs great 3 , 600 b contact brian wall \( 214 \) 393 1216 interested \( dallas area \)
ece orst edu \( space \) subject laser printer forsale repost article flop distribution usa organization ece dept , osu , corvallis lines 25 nntp posting host ece orst edu following posted friend send replies email address call 503 752 1499 \( glen \) citizen 110 laser printer sale excellent condition used less one year drum asking 500 , offers considered specs toner lifespan 2500 pages drum lifespan 15 , 000 pages resolution 300 dpi memory 512k emulation epson ibm proprinter diablo 635 printing capacity quad density graphics tray capacity 250 sheets reason sale financial need pay tuition thanks , glen anderson ece orst edu
cthulhu sparky cis ufl edu \( mark \) subject cds sale article snoopy distribution world organization univ florida cis dept lines 10 nntp posting host sparky cis ufl edu following available 7 00 \( includes postage usa \) ted jah rising black 47 ep marshall tucker band long hard ride kid frost east side story coffin break thirteen steve band got dreams
forbes sequent com \( ellen e forbes \) subject novice seeks tools trade summary looking keywords ouch ! article sequent 1993apr6 distribution usa organization sequent computer systems , inc lines 10 nntp posting host sequent com 'd like find home equipment 'll never use , 's likely victim , uh , customer make deal , call laura forbes \( 503 \) 275 4483 regular business hours , , respond e mail 'll pass message along
atlantis cs orst edu \( digital exodus 1993 \) subject reciever cd player keyboards sale article organization osu cs outreach services , corvallis , oregon lines 22 nntp posting host atlantis cs orst edu following items sale 1 \) onkyo tx 901 910 reciever amplifier 2 months old perfect condition \( stereo \) , 4 speaker ability , 40 channel memory , digital direct tuning also plus , also earphone jack bought 350 new asking less 250 best offer gets \( obviously \) price dropped 230 offers far 's deal \? recievers needed \? \( 2 \) two zeos ibm external keyboards month old , bought 90 new selling 35 piece , 65 pay shipping \( snes sold , cd player still n't sold offer 170 , instantly send \) \( ask stats cd player \) atlantis cs orst edu
prism gatech edu \( arlo james \) subject 2 18 lansing sale 250 organization georgia institute technology lines 7 headline says ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! oh god hope works , oh god hope works damn , know rf stood arlo georgia institute technology , atlanta georgia , 30332 internet prism gatech edu
subject wanted summer washington , dc mentor cc purdue edu \( gene kim \) distribution na organization purdue university lines 9 'll spending summer washington , dc working bowie , md anyone summer 'd like unload \? 'll area may 7 august 20 please mail pertinent info \( mentor cc purdue edu \) thanks advance , gene
subject diamond stealth 24 24bit svga sale cleveland freenet edu \( yi jin \) reply cleveland freenet edu \( yi jin \) organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu lines 10 brand new , still shrink stealth 24 sale 150 plus shipping cod specifications based s3 801 805 32bit , 1024x768x256 72hz ni , ni , ni , system requires 386 486 based isa vesa vl bus , fast drivers 3 1 drivers popular softwares like wp , microsoft word , lotus , autocad yj
keith radio nl nuwc navy mil subject tektronix 453 scope sale article radio 621 lines 19 x received usenet pa dec com id tue , 6 apr 93 14 51 58 0700 x received inet gw 1 pa dec com id tue , 6 apr 93 14 51 53 0700 x misc forsale usenet tektronix 453 scope sale 50mhz bandwidth portable \( one series ! \) delayed sweep works fine n't manual \( available various places \) probes 275 shipping email info regards , keith keith , radio nl nuwc navy mil
pchang ic sunysb edu \( pong chang \) subject video title maker sale nntp posting host libws4 ic sunysb edu organization state university new york stony brook lines 37 title maker system 2 old , used includes 1 \) character generator model tm 1 8000 available chars 12 fonts stereo sound million different colors available 20 special effects full keyboard design mail details 2 \) video editor model tu 1 marks sections tape thumbs thumbs skip bad parts tape built video enhancer copying tapes viewing automatic \( \) use combination w unit units excellent condition , comes docs , unregistered warranty cards j r music world sells 399 229 , respectively asking 500 units email pchang ic sunysb edu interested c ommon pchang ic sunysb edu ense state university new york stony brook e ngineer
tran navy mil \( tri tran \) subject info ultrastor hd controller wanted organization lines 9 hi netters , anyone know info ultrastor line controller \? i'm especially interested 34f scsi controllers please email info asap i'm building system 's one missing thanks tri
ok lrc edu subject box chemicals sale organization rhyne college , hickory , nc lines 7 i'm selling 388 worth chemicals 100 'll split two 50 dollars aprox 380 bottles make great chem set pay shipping 15 really interested mail partial list please contact e mail omar
uafhp uark edu \( john \) subject engagement ring give summary beautiful gold band 33 diamond clean keywords holmes article moe organization kansas state university lines 3 nntp posting host uafhp uark edu diamond engagement ring gold band diamond 1900 dollars sell 600 dollars appraisal available upon request send e mail uafhp uark edu
pchang ic sunysb edu \( pong chang \) subject sale quicken 3 0 pc keywords accounting , checking , quicken nntp posting host libws4 ic sunysb edu organization state university new york stony brook lines 18 article hpk ec usf edu sunburn ec usf edu \( kevin \( ch \) \) writes article phakt usc edu khoh usc edu \( oliver muoto \) writes sale quicken 3 0 \( pc version \) allows balance assume get new releases earlier \? last saw , version 2 0 latest probably referring dos version dos versions like version 6 think window version came recently like version 2 something c ommon pchang ic sunysb edu ense state university new york stony brook e ngineer
pchang ic sunysb edu \( pong chang \) subject computer parts camcorder nntp posting host libws4 ic sunysb edu organization state university new york stony brook lines 21 article com com \( \) writes 5 25 1 2mb 3 5 1 44 drives new planned building machine , ran funds 30 00 drive carl , brand drives \? documentation \? 'll go 40 00 shipping documentation pay 40 floppy drives 40 new also , need documentation floppies installation things idiot proof advice c ommon pchang ic sunysb edu ense state university new york stony brook e ngineer
pchang ic sunysb edu \( pong chang \) subject microsoft dos 6 0 upgrade sale nntp posting host libws4 ic sunysb edu organization state university new york stony brook lines 36 article hatton cgl ucsf edu hatton socrates ucsf edu \( tom hatton \) writes adn6285 ritvax isc rit edu writes article eve usc edu , yuanchie eve usc edu \( yuan hsu \) writes ms dos 6 0 upgrade sale best offer 45 \( opened , unregistered \) , anyone care enlighten us whether dos6 0 worth upgrading \? good 's compression , turned \? nice nasty features \? according reports , n't dos yet , n't utilities \( qemm , stacker , pctools , norton , \) dos6 may worth people dos5 , sort utility , dos6 n't offer much 'd never know usual hype marketing able create , however \) installed dos 6 last week , nothing trouble afterwards windows apps hitting protection faults kid , seem like work \( norton dos 7 0 \) probs include set pcplus pcplus procomm plus longer works many little utilities written dos longer works either \( mostly shareware \) dos 6 , dos 5 works fine apps dos 6 able run dos 5 wont \? c ommon pchang ic sunysb edu ense state university new york stony brook e ngineer
uafhp uark edu \( john \) subject food coupons summary deal century keywords holmes article moe organization kansas state university lines 12 nntp posting host uafhp uark edu looking save money \? man mail 5 food coupons 2 50 get twice dollar amount coupons mail 15 get 30 dollars coupons sounds like great deal well send sase 766 elizabeth st salt lake city , utah enclose money form money order personally , would trust person send coupons money sent well , let earn trust send 1 dollar , 'll send 2 store coupons 'll talk e mail enquiries uafhp uark edu thank , john
okcforum osrhe edu \( brent \) subject casio digital diary nntp posting host okcforum osrhe edu organization okcforum unix users group x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 15 sale casio digital diary electronic organizer \( sf 4000 \) 32k ram hold 1500 names phone numbers big 6 line display 200 year visible calendar schedule function memo bank telephone name , number , address storage calculator compact folding design fits pocket 25 originally purchased 100 mail okcforum osrhe edu interested price include shipping
ttesta kali enet dec com \( tom testagrossa \) subject psychnet reply ttesta kali enet dec com \( tom testagrossa \) organization digital equipment corporation , maynard , lines 33 article skeena ucs ubc ca , okabe unixg ubc ca \( ian okabe \) writes electronic networking psychnet com professional psychology serving psychologists \( 1 800 541 \) world wide whats psychnet thing everyones 's posting matter post getting annoying ian okabe \( okabe unixg ubc ca \) atmospheric sciences , university british columbia , vancouver , canada 's experiment , place subliminal , slightly message front viewer see long takes create response , response thing blow message , quicker response time unexpected responses along negative ones anyone see long took \? , jest tom tom testagrossa e mail ttesta kali enet dec com us mail 132 st apt 2 , u phone work \( 508 \) 493 \( voicemail \) home \( 508 \) 342 2362 ask
ike navo navy mil \( steve \) subject parametric eq \( car \) nntp posting host nntpd ike navo navy mil keywords eq audio stereo organization naval oceanographic office lines 16 ceres 3 band parametric equalizer specs 3 bands 1 40 2 100hz 3 boost cut thd less 0 02 size \( \) eq three variable bands indicated variable q also subwoofer output variable cutoff frequency originally paid 129 unit used 3 months selling car excellent condition wiring hardware intact manual original box asking price 75 pops navo navy mil
copernicus tymnet com \( scott \) subject dodge wagon sale summary 1964 dodge dart v8 wagon 300 negotiable keywords 1964 dodge dart wagon v8 sale 300 california cal cal bay area bay area cal article organization 2m lines 20 nntp posting host copernicus dodge dart collectors 1964 dodge \( 25th anniversary \) dart v8 wagon turn cash asking price 300 00 although negotiate car currently resides union city , california thats east side san francisco bay area state california united states america continent north america planet earth , third planetary body sol , mid range star western spiral arm galaxy north silicon valley interested pleas contact scott following means internet tymnet com home answering machine 510 489 business voice mail 408 922 loud yell wave money window \( recommended downtown urban environment \) ps also bmw r60 5 sale , 700 00
konrad uucp \( konrad \) subject macintosh ii cx sale distribution tor expires 01 may 93 reply konrad uucp \( konrad \) organization matrix network lines 5 macintosh ii cx 40 mb hd , 8 mb ram 19 monochrome monitor \( \) sale asking 3 , 000 , reasonable \( best \) offer rejected contact konrad \( 416 \) 365 mon 9 5
bnr ca \( peter \) subject sale tr 606 mirage rack mount sampler organization bell northern research ltd lines 23 sale roland tr 606 drum machine near mint condition \( scratches , fully operational \) sorry manuals asking 200 us shipping mirage rack mount sampler minor scratches around rack ear screws advanced sampling option , 32 disks manuals 's long story , may turtle beach vision , sample editing software ibm pc asking 400 us shipping send e mail requests bnr ca regards , peter \( \( bnr ca \) \) spirituality technology bell northern research , ltd \( montreal , canada \)
cbnewsl cb att com \( avinash \) subject ms excel sdk sale organization self distribution usa lines 21 following sale absolutely new , use microsoft excel software development kit version 4 ms windows apple macintosh contains 498 page book microsoft press 2 3 5 floppy disks containing software sample code poster api calls etc orig price us 49 95 would like sell highest offer 30 shipping please email reply attmail ! thanks avinash
fuzzy hardy u washington edu \( xu \) subject answering machine phone organization university washington , seattle lines 17 distribution reply fuzzy u washington edu nntp posting host hardy u washington edu panasonic phone answering machine looks like brand new basic answering machine function 8 phone number memory recall function 1 year old asking 45 00 interest \? please call 206 720 1089 alex
acns nwu edu subject chicago area roommate needed \( evanston \) nntp posting host acns nwu edu organization northwestern university lines 21 non smoking roommate needed sublet apt evanston , il near el stop parking available rent 322 50 mo 1 2 utils avail may 1 beg end aug \( entire apt available sept 1 \) roommate 26 years old , vegetarian , non smoking female works northwestern neat freaks please ! call \( 708 \) 491 \( w \) \( 708 \) 869 \( h \) dc nwu edu
craig n106 z1 fidonet org \( craig \) subject new cd lines 26 cd disk users commercial ad ! alot new cd disks cdrom interested purchasing disks please download list mentioned cd night v8 0 35 00 download file zip freq magic name catalog craig pleasure dome 713 855 internet usenet p2 n106 z1 fidonet org 93 5 fidonet 1 106 88 1 85 841 803 69 1700 3 30 301 0 bbs number \( 713 \) 855 p send email home address mail list house list 12 pages long computer call get list faster
sdf lonestar org \( stephen jones \) subject forsale drum things cheap ! organization super dimension fortress public access unix dallas , tx lines 22 north heavy duty hi hat stand 45 older stand definately working shape could use little clean comes clutch , etc pearl bass drum pedal felt 20 cymbal stand 15 \( needs work cymbal stem \) 20 ride cymbal 55 main line older ride cymbal ludwig snare stand 10 okay snare stand like though \) shipping extra please email stephen jones sdf system administrator sdf lonestar org cs e
cliff engin umich edu \( clifford \) subject monitor , add card , apple iie computer keywords monitor apple computer organization university michigan engineering , ann arbor lines 30 need sell following items apple iie computer includes 300 baud modem 80 columns zenith green monitor tons software manuals controller card western digital 440 includes winchester controller floppy controller 2 serial ports parallel port docs , jumper settings printed card 1024x768 28 dot pitch svga monitor interlaced 14 unlimited colors includes documentation power cord connecting cable must sell items may 4 make offer cliff cliff engin umich edu
nyx cs du edu \( kirk peterson \) subject hewlett packard deskjet 500 inkjet printer sale organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept lines 43 sale hewlett packard deskjet 500 inkjet printer perfect condition internally externally comes two full ink cartridges less six months old comes original packaging , manuals , cables software truly excellent printer low cost alternative laser printer prints quality laser printer , fraction cost long term cost \( , replacement ink cartridges opposed replacement toner \) printer prints maximum 300 300 \( \) ots \( p \) er \( \) \( p \) many different types sizes paper , including envelopes printer prints landscape portrait modes printer accept two cartridges giving things like memory additional fonts printer works excellently windows dos brings truetype full potential originally purchased printer 375 00 make offer , would prefer stay 300 00 range pay shipping anywhere continental u interested , please either leave email call kirk peterson \( 303 \) 494 7951 anytime thanks ! p printer work computer accept standard parallel serial connection \( , ibm , amiga , etc \)
reidg pacs pha pa us \( reid goldsborough \) subject word processing utilities sale keywords software distribution na organization philadelphia area computer society lines 60 word processing utilities include complete printed manuals registration cards need get rid excess 're latest versions 've priced programs less half list price significantly less cheapest mail order price around grammatik 5 windows , top rated grammar checker , helps improve writing correcting grammar usage mistakes , owned wordperfect , list 99 , sale 45 grammatik 5 dos , top rated grammar checker , helps improve writing correcting grammar usage mistakes , owned wordperfect , list 99 , sale 45 correct grammar windows 2 0 , top notch grammar checker , , list 119 , sale 45 correct grammar dos 4 0 , top notch grammar checker , , list 99 , sale 40 correct writing 1 0 windows , online writing manual tips correct use , capitalization , compound words , , bibliographies , footnotes , , list 59 , sale 25 random house electronic dictionary thesaurus windows 1 0 , unlike spell checkers provides online definitions 're sure word 's meaning , also larger thesaurus word processors finding right word , list 119 , sale 55 random house electronic dictionary thesaurus dos 1 2 , functionality windows version , list 119 , sale 55 word finder plus windows 1 0 , huge online thesaurus one million , list 59 , sale 25 random house encyclopedia dos 1 02 , online encyclopedia use without needing cd rom drive , easier use less expensive book based encyclopedia , takes 5 5 mb hard disk space , list 119 , sale 55 1 5 , dos based database great advertising headlines , proverbs , , song titles , movie titles , , great advertising , newspaper editors , , others trying come catchy phrases , list 195 , sale 90 toolkit windows 2 0 , amazing collection seven different word processing utilities one package , includes encyclopedia , great quotations , dictionary abbreviations , dictionary definitions , thesaurus , usage guide , grammar checker , list 129 , sale 65 're interested programs , please phone 215 885 \( philadelphia \) , 'll save package reid goldsborough reidg pacs pha pa us
reidg pacs pha pa us \( reid goldsborough \) subject utilities sale keywords software distribution na organization philadelphia area computer society lines 28 utilities include complete printed manuals registration cards need get rid excess 're latest versions 've priced programs less half list price significantly less cheapest mail order price around pc tools dos 8 0 , best selling utilities collections , includes dos shell , antivirus program , backup program , disk , memory , remote communications link , data protection recovery utilities , appointment book , address book , , list 179 , sale 80 norton backup dos 2 2 , supports dos 6 , tape backup systems , , twice fast backup dos 6 , highly automated customizable , list 149 , sale 65 4 7 , top rated dos based systems diagnostics program , comprehensive anything included dos , windows , utilities collections , invaluable determining sources problems ram , video , drives , ports , keyboard , motherboard , joystick , mouse , speaker , , list 159 , sale 70 're interested programs , please phone 215 885 \( philadelphia \) , 'll save package reid goldsborough reidg pacs pha pa us
reidg pacs pha pa us \( reid goldsborough \) subject os 2 etc sale keywords software distribution na organization philadelphia area computer society lines 20 packages include complete printed manuals registration cards need get rid excess 're latest versions 've priced programs less half list price significantly less cheapest mail order price around os 2 2 0 , run windows , dos , os 2 programs , superior stability compared windows , list 169 , sale 60 norton commander os 2 , provides better file management os 2 alone , graphical tree file list , drag drop , launch apps customizable menu , list 149 , sale 60 're interested programs , please phone 215 885 \( philadelphia \) 'll save package reid goldsborough reidg pacs pha pa us
reidg pacs pha pa us \( reid goldsborough \) subject new software sale keywords software distribution na organization philadelphia area computer society lines 34 programs include complete printed manuals registration cards need get rid excess 're latest versions 've priced programs less half list price significantly less cheapest mail order price around microsoft entertainment pack volume one , includes eight different windows based games , including tetris , taipei , minesweeper , , golf , cruel , pegged , , list 49 , sale 20 joking windows 1 0 , database jokes , quickly find jokes many different occasions , useful business writers , , , others , 2 , 800 jokes 250 topics , search keyword author , list 49 , sale 25 humor processor 2 02 , dos based database jokes , requires 384 kb ram , along thousands categorized jokes quickly find also includes online tutorial writing jokes proven comedy , list 99 , sale 45 history world 1 0 , multimedia cd rom covering cave society present , includes recordings 25 famous speeches , , others , list 795 , sale 160 're interested programs , please phone 215 885 \( philadelphia \) 'll save package reid goldsborough reidg pacs pha pa us
smb col hp com \( sam bauer \) subject sale waxworks organization hp colorado springs division lines 67 nntp posting host col hp com pc game sale waxworks accolade \( 5 25 \) 30 folks brought elvira ii played elvira ii , think finally made game waxworks look feel roughly elvira games , though real time fighting little easier survive first two games , especially elvira ii jaws made tough stay alive hit point restoring difficult say waxworks walk park , quite fair , always weapon found quite effective , hint given proper fighting strategy one four wax works explored , fighting \( well almost none \) , though four contain moderately puzzles really interesting thing game really broken four seperate , one four exhibits must enter starting one , character transported objects use , experience level 1 one exhibits traps inside multi level ancient egyptian pyramid must escape fighting , mapping puzzle solving another exhibit traps mine taken creeping plant pods , local humans transformed plant zombies single level maze requires rescue humans , kill head plant alien , kill tuff plant zombies always showing perhaps horrifying exhibit another exhibit puts jack ripper england appear corpse fresh ripper victim , course police think responsible must avoid police angry mobs mystery ripper meet face face first get last exhibit challenge learning stop almost zombies vga graphics music effective setting tone game , case elvira games , though much improved makes much enjoyable game heartily recommend rpg horror fans prices include shipping games excellent condition unless otherwise stated us buyers please games shipped inside box packing , insured , priority usps games include original materials including box , manual , disks , registration unless otherwise noted first offering asking price guarenteed get game asking questions get priority offer buy game lower offers may considered assuming offers asking price made sam bauer hewlett packard co , \( 719 \) 531 network test division smb col hp com colorado springs , co
murli bobcat ent ohiou edu \( murli ramakrishnan \) subject zeos daughterboard upgradeable 386 25 sale trade organization college engg tech , ohio university , athens , ohio lines 15 hi folks , 386 25 daughter board zeos , want upgrade 486 25 33 send mail offer 1 selling 486 25 486 33 \( zeos daughterboard \) 2 willing buy 386 25 \( zeos daughterboard \) thanks murli murli ram murli ent ohiou edu \( next mail \) ohio university murli bobcat ent ohiou edu athens
mmm cup portal com \( mark robert thorson \) subject metal powder , steel , iron organization portal system \( tm \) lines 4 love posts ex soviet union among cars , sets , video cameras , etc every ad pops bee venom , red oxide mercury , cobalt \( 100 tons minimum order \) , etc n't garage sales russia \? \)
spooge carson u washington edu \( jeff barrett \) subject printer paper tray organization university washington , seattle lines 5 distribution world nntp posting host carson u washington edu hewlett packard laserjet series ii paper tray sale letter size \( 8 5 11 \) , brand new box never used i'm asking 40 00 \( bought new ballard computer 65 95 \) please reply spooge u washington edu \( 206 \) 543
fierro uts amdahl com \( doug fierro \) subject lift tickets available 32 distribution ba organization amdahl corporation , sunnyvale ca lines 14 posting friend tickets interested parties call john \( 408 \) 522 information three lift tickets good anytime season valley ski resort doug fierro uts system software case tools development fierro uts amdahl com \( 408 \) 746
berkeley edu \( rob \) subject sale 1984 toyota pickup 2800 organization technical computing services , u c berkeley , berkeley , ca lines 26 distribution ca nntp posting host berkeley edu please respond directly account sale blue 1984 toyota pickup truck white blazer , fm casette , c , cruise control great camping trips new brakes , master brake cylinder , michelin tires , shocks , maintenance free battery , clutch , windshield wipers well maintained toyota parts \( repairs done dealers \) little rust , body good shape miles asking 2800 interested , please contact ursula gene com \( 415 \) 347 please respond directly account rob technical computing services , ee cs , u c berkeley eecs berkeley edu voice 510 642 fax 510 643
ok lrc edu subject chemicals sale organization rhyne college , hickory , nc lines 6 chemicals gone thanks response omar
garnet berkeley edu \( \) subject printing organization university california , berkeley lines 28 nntp posting host garnet berkeley edu article 1993apr15 sarah albany edu me9574 albnyvms bitnet writes advertises printing business oh , dear let first block violated one major usenet groups 're supposed use newsgroup plug commercial enterprise \( kind people frequently get flamed announcing 've got new book \) n't know whether official usenet rule long standing custom , n't make much difference practical point view please n't others , even taking keyboard hand flame face earth lay n't know better dorothy j heydt uc berkeley garnet berkeley edu disclaimer ucb lab responsible opinions , fact n't think know
andy sail stanford edu \( andy freeman \) subject catalog hard find pc enhancements \( repost \) organization computer science department , stanford university lines 33 andy sail stanford edu \( andy freeman \) writes article unix portal com shell portal com \( joe doll \) wr catalog personal computing tools engineers scien lists hardware cards application software packages pc xt ps 2 class machines focus engineering scien applications pcs , data acquisition control , design automation , data analysis presentation would like free copy , reply \( u postal \) mailing address n't bother never comes 's cheap trick building mailing list sell junk mail flow indication andy sent address months ago perhaps get portal nuke never received catalog either person n't respond growing flame , assume look forward lotsa junk mail n't want , want honest junk mail much interesting promised catalog 'd known going get , would n't would n't surprised folks looked ad said nope would interested junk mail results similarly , people wanted advertised catalog n't happy junk got instead folks buying mailing lists would prefer honest ad , would people reading andy
tomcat leland stanford edu \( tom \) subject attention neo geo owners read ! keywords neo geo organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa lines 25 hello neo geo owners \( non owners could n't resist title \) \) , wondering want trade sell games mean , buying stores get kinda expensive 184 99 little much spending game ahh , quality get 100 , 's still lot right , crossed swords lord baseball stars 2 fatal fury nam 1975 interested buying titles interesting trade ideas , please let know thanks tom tomcat leland stanford edu
dtmedin catbyte b30 ingr com \( dave medin \) subject pressure meter reply dtmedin catbyte b30 ingr com organization intergraph corporation , huntsville al lines 21 model pressure meter precision 4 1 2 digit meter measuring 0 15 psi \( absolute \) 001 psi case extremely good shape , used stand alone meter panel mounted brass fitting \( looks like standard 3 8 \) back operates 110 vac 'd like 50 , make offer lot useful lab , 've using dave medin phone \( 205 \) 730 3169 \( w \) ssd networking \( 205 \) 837 1174 \( h \) intergraph corp gd3004 internet dtmedin catbyte b30 ingr com huntsville , al 35894 uucp uunet ! ingr ! b30 ! catbyte ! dtmedin everywhere look \( least around office \) opinions expressed mine \( machine \)
sage cc purdue edu \( zhang \) subject cheap airline ticket l wanted keywords airline , ticket , wanted organization purdue university distribution usa lines 7 cheap airline ticket l april 21 \( tuesday \) chicago return 10 14 days wanted please phone \( 317 \) 743 mail sage cc purdue edu
mentor cc purdue edu \( j martin \) subject mother board sale organization purdue university computing center lines 16 sale 486 dx 33 motherboard sale excellent condition less one year old 64k cache , expandable 256k ram expandable 32mb ami bios need sell upgrading asking 600 00 \( neg \) contact martin 49 email mentor cc purdue edu
rich launchpad unc edu \( rich \) subject delaware \( , pa \) week sale nntp posting host lambada oit unc edu organization university north carolina extended bulletin board service distribution usa lines 15 second week january \( prime ski season one largest ski areas \) north condo sleeps 6 8 depending friendly hot tub , deck easy access parking lot shuttle slopes \( condo miles slopes \) cost 6000 , price based paid \( used , also \) current market opinions expressed necessarily university north carolina chapel hill , campus office information technology , experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu 152 2 22 80
organization university illinois chicago , academic computer center uicvm uic edu subject wanted games lines 16 hello , looking games popular 70 's games seek straight slots defenseman , shaped slots players rods operated springs game \( games \) would willing part , please send e mail message uicvm uic edu price negotiable would also cover shipping state part league plays regular basis , \( chicago table hockey league \) , need game practice also , league always interested purchasing games expand thank , ken harris equipment expand 's size
broder src dec com \( andrei broder \) subject lift tickets available 32 reply broder src dec com organization dec systems research center distribution ba lines 9 tickets 34 25 starting last week april , maybe first week may way , current conditions \( apr 12 13 \) great spring skiing , excellent coverage , stuff open , lift lines andrei
fozzard fsl noaa gov \( richard fozzard \) subject bmw sale organization noaa \( univ \) distribution co lines 33 1976 bmw original four door sports sedan arctic blue metallic gold alloy plus 1 wheels \( 15 \) goodyear eagle gt 4 racing tires \( mud snow rated \) 3 0 liter , 186 hp , fuel injected engine w headers adjustable gas shocks around \( , \) 4 speed stick , 4 wheel power disc brakes , sunroof , ps , ac listen installed hidden speaker stereo w subwoofer miles \( yet much better condition cars w 100k \) maintained records , 3k mi oil changes faded paint top , otherwise excellent exterior interior car required major repair work ten years owned never failed start broken , even weather reliable economical car , shows every sign staying way yet absolute thrill drive take secluded twisty mountain road ! sell , reluctantly , since convertible craving bought new miata 2500 obo rich fozzard 497 6011 444 3168 richard fozzard univ colorado noaa r e fs 325 broadway , boulder , co 80303 fozzard fsl noaa gov \( 303 \) 497 6011 444 3168
moy cae wisc edu \( howard moy \) subject madison wi summer sublet organization u wisconsin madison college engineering distribution lines 35 downtown furnished summer sublet may 15 thru aug 15 great location 215 n frances st johnson st \( across \) near nitty gritty near howard johnson near state street near south east near university square near two bedroom room \( larger ! \) laundry available parking available bathroom kitchen large closet dual pay electricity \( 7 month \) asking 500 whole summer ! send inquiries howard 608 255 moy cae wisc edu howard ! howard moy ! ! \( 608 \) 255 !
philabs philips com \( \) subject moving sale organization philips laboratories , briarcliff manor , ny distribution ny lines 9 sale dining table \( wooden \) 6 chairs 125 dining table scandinavian style 30 steel desk free interested , please call
aboyko dixie com \( andrew boyko \) subject sega genesis sale w sonic 1 2 organization dixie communications public access mouth south lines 8 4 month old sega genesis , barely used , one controller , original box , 1 2 130 gets whole bundle shipped turns 're addictive 're anyway , mail 're interested marvel modern technology andrew boyko aboyko dixie com
well sf ca us \( eric c dynamic \) subject k 4 way el cheapo buy sorry , etc etc nntp posting host well sf ca us organization whole earth 'lectronic link , sausalito , ca distribution ba lines 10 gotta pay well bill eating mere passing interest comparison k 4 synthesizer 400 act cash , take delivery berkeley call \( 510 \) 287 leave name number call back arrange marvelous feast offer expires soon \( soon \? soon believe \) act thank support
minh bigwpi wpi edu \( minh pham \) subject sipps memory forsale organization worcester polytechnic institute lines 23 nntp posting host bigwpi wpi edu sipps sale 16 sipps sale upgraded systems memory , n't need 11 sipps 70ns 5 sipps 80ns 4 meg total 110 4 \( 1 meg \) 27 note sipps expensive simms sipps good working condition buyer pay shipping handling interested reply minh wpi wpi edu minh pham e mail minh wpi wpi edu worcester polytechnical institute
balboa eng uci edu \( anthony lai \) subject sale 3 software packages , antivirus , nntp posting host balboa eng uci edu organization university california , irvine lines 28 hello , three software packages sale 1 norton version 4 5 dos software include host remote software control dos windows 3 1 \( standard enhanced modes \) activities registration card enclosed price 40 00 2 norton antivirus windows dos version 2 1 update virus information time also support networks registration card enclosed price 40 00 3 professional windows 3 1 best graphics presentation program ever seen registration card enclosed reg price 495 00 price 150 00 thank attention anthony lai
magnus acs ohio state edu \( robert chong \) subject books sale \( cheap ! \) nntp posting host top magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 50 hi , everyone , books sale , prices negotiable ! ! \( shipping fee included ! ! \) 1 signals systems , alexander p samuel pws kent publisher , old price 10 new price 8 50 ! ! ! ! 2 probability introduction , samuel goldberg dover publisher , old price 4 new price 2 ! ! ! ! ! ! ! 3 digital image processing computer vision , r wiley publisher , old price 30 new price 26 ! ! ! ! ! ! 4 digital image processing , r p , addison wesley publisher , old price 25 new price 22 50 ! ! ! sold ! ! 5 x window system user guide \( x11r4 \) , o'reilly associate 6 best book ms dos 5 , alan simpson sams , old price 12 new price 8 50 ! ! ! ! 7 elements modern algebra , hu holden day publisher , old price 8 new price 3 00 ! ! ! ! 8 , world particles , lee washington publisher , old price 12 new price 9 50 ! ! ! ! 9 elementary particles laws physics 1986 dirac memorial lectures , cambridge publisher , old price 8 new price 6 00 ! ! ! ! 10 brief history time , stephen w hawking bantam books \( paperback \) , old price 8 new price 4 00 ! ! ! ! robert chong department mechanical engineering ohio state university email magnus acs ohio state edu
iitmax iit edu \( k garg \) subject fax modem card wanted keywords fax , modem card organization illinois institute technology academic computing center distribution chi lines 8 looking inexpensive fax modem card pc one sell , please e mail garg iitmax iit edu 312 942 1977 \( h \)
bob nntp crl com \( bob ames \) subject unix pc software sale organization crl internet dialup access \( 415 389 unix login guest \) lines 41 distribution world nntp posting host crl com greetings list items 3b1 selling dbase iii full dbase iii multiuser development runtime 3b1 ! microsoft basic interpreter gives 2 5 megabytes ram available ! microsoft word full featured mouse based multiuser word processor microsoft nice multiuser spreadsheet program chart nice graphical program creating business charts lpi c robust c compiler 'll throw lpi debug single step , alter vars electronic mail nice office based front end mail 'll take 500 best offer whole bunch bought new 1985 , paid 2 , 000 excellent programs 'd rather sell together , n't hesitate make offer one 'd consider possible trades i'm interested following 3b1 hardware ethernet card without software tape backup external expansion unit upgraded p5 1 motherboard \( info p5 1 upgrades \) 2nd hard drive upgrade kit , 610 , 615 , terminals style keyboard make offer bob ames bob crl com 707 546 ps get unix pcs 40m drives 1m motherboards loaded 3 , , smail , trn , rn , elm , , gzip , , couple things 550 plus shipping let know 're interested pps hard drives \( exactly maxtor 2190 , faster \) sale 280 thru vendor la \( number handy , write info \) good price drives , largest , fastest hds available unix pc \( note , fully use entire , 'll need p5 1 motherboard upgrade \? , \)
rosen enet dec com \( jim \) subject metal powder , steel , iron reply rosen enet dec com \( jim \) organization digital equipment corp lines 26 article cup portal com , mmm cup portal com \( mark robert thorson \) writes xref nntpd2 cxo dec com misc invest misc forsale path nntpd2 cxo dec com ! pa dec com ! e2big mko dec com ! dec com ! news crl dec com ! ! caen ! zaphod mps ohio state edu ! sdd hp com ! portal ! cup portal com ! mmm mmm cup portal com \( mark robert thorson \) newsgroups misc invest , misc forsale subject metal powder , steel , iron message id cup portal com date thu , 15 apr 93 08 53 51 pdt organization portal system \( tm \) references msk su lines 4 love posts ex soviet union among cars , sets , video cameras , etc every ad pops bee venom , red oxide mercury , cobalt \( 100 tons minimum order \) , etc n't garage sales russia \? \) really n't strike funny rather indicative crisis economy imagine desparate need markets sustain industries people central control government jim rosen enet dec com never try teach pig sing ca n't done , annoys pig
gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) subject soft contact lens cleaning unit \( heater \) summary barnes timer heating unit boiling soft lenses nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) organization phds hall distribution na lines 17 girlfriend switched gas hard lenses longer needs one year old soft contact lens cleaning unit 's one pop lens case filled solution lenses , press timer button let cook \( course 've owned one , understand \) , maybe little dust cover best cash offer , equivalent worth used cd 's tapes \( blanks couple pre recorded movies concerts \) gld je souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go ! ! ! gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
phakt usc edu \( hung jen chen \) subject forsale pas 2x tube pre amp organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 17 nntp posting host phakt usc edu pas 2x sale 's pure tube pre amp , using two phono stage also two line stage one used power supply clean neat workmanship works fine good sound owner 's manuel asking 100 obo plus shipping contact harry interested thanx
tedm tsoft net \( ted matsumura \) subject catalog hard find pc enhancements \( repost \) article tsoft distribution usa organization tsoft bbs public access unix , 1 415 969 8238 lines 34 stuff deleted example , subscribe 2 magazines , abc news xyz products give name joseph x cool first , joe q cool 2nd get junk mail addressed joseph x cool , know bought name n't help getting junk mail , least know 's selling name ask companies sell name mailing lists tele , supposed \( , 's illegal \) case n't guessed , n't really use joe cool company maintains 20 , 000 mailing list regularly rented one time use major software companies method using seed junk mail , n't really effective bulk mailers regulary either send databases cleaned , 've moved recently , revert back original xxx cool , large mailings , likely dupe , 'll pick first , use others future mailings btw , list currently one lists actual buyers ms windows utility product 100 range , available direct media ct , 0 10 per name please let direct mail marketing rep know thanks ted matthew hey , speak ! even wo n't admit opinions expressed apple com , n't expect employer
rdi cci632 cci com \( rick \) subject drafting machine sale organization computer consoles , inc , rochester , ny distribution usa lines 17 sale precision drafting machine , solid older model spring loaded counter balance clamps table without scales right handed person 60 make offer , includes ups parcel post postage i'm guessing 's 1940s 1950s , period well known excellent drafting machine construction ! \) 's built real metal parts , cheap modern plastic , 's painted typical office grey popular period 's smooth working , two arms measures roughly 24 dual clamp enable clamp edge corner table rick rochester ! cci632 ! rdi northern telecom , ltd uunet ! ! cci632 ! rdi rochester , ny rdi cci com
sunshine cco caltech edu \( tom renner \) subject apple iigs article gap distribution usa organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 29 nntp posting host punisher caltech edu basic apple iigs system need sell everything comes original boxes documentation , excellent condition make offer 'll consider anything apple iigs 1 meg 3 5 drive 13 rgb monitor keyboard mouse 1200 baud random worthless stuff 's list games apps games applications system disk defender crown system tools iigs ii wordperfect bubble ghost writer 's choice elite balance power draw plus marble madness copy ii plus golf communications software 2100 interested , contact sunshine cco caltech edu
iitmax iit edu \( smile \) subject forsale used guitar amp article iitmax 1993apr15 distribution usa organization illinois institute technology lines 14 two years old guitar amplifier model handles upto 80 watts dual input two channels three band eq distortion asking 150 \( send mail iitmax acc iit edu interested \) prices maybe negotiable
uafhp uark edu \( chris bray \) subject cassettes sale ! ! ! \( update \) organization kansas state university lines 23 nntp posting host uafhp uark edu summary tapes sale keywords tapes , sale , sell hi still tapes left 2 50 \( postage paid \) multiple orders appreciated , necessary package deals welcome thanks chris bray lewis , huey sports nervous night poison look cat dragged hall oates big bam boom cellar quiet riot condition critical , bob like rock outfield play deep plant , robert shaken n' stirred journey raised radio duran duran duran duran duran duran arena duran duran rio
netcom com \( g perry \) subject 1956 elvis autograph friend requested post following organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) distribution world lines 9 sale 1956 elvis autograph one two , elvis 's friend red west obtained seller spring 1956 , fla afternoon following incident elvis collapsed concert request offers ellen \( 408 \) 978 \( san jose , ca \)
cleveland freenet edu \( david \) subject 486dx33 , , , 1 , 298 organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 18 nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu vesa local bus motherboard , 4mb ram , 64k cache , 1 2 1 44 floppy , 130 mb hard drive , ide controller \( 2hd \) 2s 1p 1g local bus 1mb svga video card , 14 svga monitor \( \) mini tower , 101 key keyboard david , sam cs edu 601 234 0969 benjamin chen 714 257 1138
jrm elm circa ufl edu \( jeff mason \) subject marvel , dc , valiant , image , etc sale organization univ florida psychology dept lines 460 nntp posting host elm circa ufl edu updated april 17 , 1993 title price alpha flight 13 \( wolverine appears \) 8 40 50 \( double size \) 1 05 51 \( jim lee 's first work marvel \) 6 30 aliens 1 \( 1st app aliens comics , 1st prnt , may 1988 \) 23 10 amazing spider man 128 \( 3rd \) 15 00 136 \( intro new green goblin \) 22 00 137 \( green goblin appears \) 14 00 180 \( green goblin appears \) 11 00 238 \( 1st appearance hobgoblin \) 60 00 250 \( hobgoblin appears \) 8 40 267 \( peter david script , human torch \) 2 45 275 \( r origin spiderman , hobgoblin \) 8 40 276 \( hobgoblin appears \) 6 30 284 \( punisher , hobgoblin appear \) 6 30 291 \( appears \) 3 15 293 \( kraven appears \) 5 60 294 \( kraven appears \) 5 60 306 \( todd mcfarlane \) 7 00 312 \( hobgoblin vs green goblin \) 12 60 315 \( venom appears \) 10 50 320 \( todd mcfarlane art \) 4 90 321 \( todd mcfarlane art \) 4 90 323 \( silver sable , paladin , c america \) 4 90 324 \( sabretooth appears \) 8 40 325 \( red skull , captain america \) 4 90 328 \( hulk appears , last mcfarlane \) 5 25 330 \( punisher appears \) 2 80 331 \( punisher appears \) 2 80 337 \( hobgoblin appears \) 2 45 338 1 75 342 1 75 343 1 75 344 \( intro carnage \) 4 90 346 \( venom appears \) 4 90 347 \( venom appears \) 4 90 348 1 40 349 1 40 350 \( 52 pages \) 2 10 351 1 40 352 1 40 353 \( punisher , appear \) 1 40 354 1 40 355 \( punisher appears \) 1 40 356 \( punisher appears \) 1 40 357 \( punisher appears \) 1 40 358 \( punisher appears \) 1 40 365 \( 1st app spider man 2099 , c \) 4 20 annual 24 2 45 annual 25 \( 1st solo venom story \) 3 50 annual 26 \( new warriors , venom \) 3 50 anne rice 's vampire companion 1 5 00 anne rice 's vampire lestat 5 5 00 archer armstrong 1 \( frank miller smith layton \) 9 00 9 2 50 10 2 50 avengers 263 \( 1st appearance x factor \) 3 50 272 \( alpha flight appears \) 1 05 300 \( 68 pages , new team \) 1 75 306 0 70 324 \( alpha flight appears \) 0 70 329 \( new team \) 0 70 annual 15 2 45 annual 18 2 10 annual 19 1 75 batman legends dark knight 1 \( blue cover \) 3 85 3 2 00 batman shadow bat 1 \( still \) 5 00 batman versus predator 1 \( prestige edition , predator \) 5 00 1 \( prestige edition , batman \) 5 00 batman year one \( trade paperback , 1st printing \) 7 00 bloodshot 1 \( chromium cover , bwsmith cover poster \) 7 00 3 2 50 4 2 50 5 2 50 daredevil 131 \( origin bullseye \) 16 00 138 \( ghost rider , death 's head early app \) 11 00 158 \( frank miller art begins \) 40 00 159 \( appears , frank miller art \) 20 00 169 \( elektra 2nd appearance , bullseye \) 5 60 170 \( bullseye , appear \) 4 20 182 \( punnisher appears , frank miller art \) 8 40 183 \( punnisher appears , frank miller art \) 8 40 184 \( punnisher appears , frank miller art \) 8 40 196 \( wolverine appears \) 8 40 darkhawk 2 \( spider man hobgoblin appear \) 7 00 dark horse presents 1 \( 1st app concrete , 1st printing \) 8 40 5 \( concrete appears \) 2 80 25 2 10 32 \( annual \) 2 80 37 1 40 42 \( aliens appear \) 3 50 1 \( x men appear \) 1 40 40 0 70 41 0 70 42 \( beast appears \) 0 70 deathlok 1 2 80 deathstroke terminator 1 \( 1st printing \) 5 60 2 3 50 defenders 125 \( intro new defenders \) 2 10 152 \( double size , x factor appears \) 2 00 demon 13 \( lobo appears \) 1 05 14 \( lobo appears \) 1 05 15 \( lobo appears \) 1 05 eternal warrior 1 \( miller cover \) 11 00 2 7 00 9 2 50 10 2 50 11 2 50 fantastic four 112 \( hulk vs thing \) 25 00 337 \( simonson art begins \) 0 70 338 \( simonson art \) 0 70 339 \( art \) 0 70 344 \( simonson art \) 0 70 345 \( simonson art \) 0 70 347 \( art adams cover art , wolverine \) 3 50 348 \( ghost rider wolverine appear \) 2 10 349 \( ghost rider wolverine appear \) 2 10 350 \( 52 pages \) 1 75 351 0 70 352 \( simonson art \) 0 70 353 \( simonson art \) 0 70 354 \( simonson art \) 0 70 355 0 70 356 \( fantastic four vs new warriors \) 0 70 358 \( 80 page 30th anniversary issue \) 2 25 359 0 70 360 0 70 361 0 90 362 0 90 annual 24 1 40 flash 27 1 05 28 1 05 48 0 70 50 1 25 53 \( superman flash race \) 0 70 ghost rider 16 \( spider man hobgoblin cover story \) 2 45 17 \( spider man hobgoblin cover story \) 2 45 ghost rider cable 1 \( sam keith cover \) 4 00 ghost rider captain america fear 5 00 guardians galaxy 25 \( prism foil cover \) 2 50 harbinger 10 \( 1st appearance h r corps \) 7 00 16 3 00 17 2 50 18 2 50 h r corps 1 5 00 6 2 50 7 2 50 havok meltdown 1 3 50 incredible hulk 314 \( byrne art begins \) 3 50 323 1 40 324 \( 1st app grey hulk since 1 , 1962 \) 7 00 327 1 40 330 \( 1st mcfarlane issue \) 17 50 331 \( grey hulk series begins \) 11 20 367 \( 1st dale keown art hulk \) 14 00 372 \( green hulk appears , keown art \) 12 60 373 \( keown art \) 4 20 376 \( keown art , grey vs green hulk \) 4 20 377 \( 1st new hulk , 1st prnt , keown \) 14 00 381 \( keown c \) 2 80 384 \( keown c \) 2 80 385 \( keown c \) 2 80 386 \( keown c \) 2 80 387 \( keown c \) 2 80 388 \( keown c \) 2 80 389 \( keown c \) 2 10 390 \( keown c \) 2 80 392 \( keown c \) 2 80 393 \( green foil stamped cover , keown \) 5 60 infinity gauntlet 1 \( perez painted cover thanos \) 7 00 2 \( thanos \) 4 20 3 \( thanos \) 2 80 john byrne 's next men 3 3 00 4 3 00 justice league america 46 0 70 47 0 70 50 1 25 52 0 70 justice league quarterly 1 2 50 justice society america 1 \( april 1991 \) 1 25 1 \( origin , kirby art \) 25 00 2 \( kirby art \) 15 00 3 \( kirby art \) 9 00 7 \( kirby art \) 5 00 last generation 1 2 10 magnus robot fighter 21 \( new direction logo begins \) 5 00 23 3 00 24 2 50 marc spector moon knight 25 \( ghost rider appears \) 2 50 marvel comics presents 1 \( wolverine , silver surfer \) 7 00 2 \( wolverine , master kungfu \) 3 50 3 \( wolverine , master kungfu \) 3 50 4 \( wolverine , master kungfu \) 3 50 5 \( wolverine , daredevil \) 3 50 6 \( wolverine , hulk \) 2 80 7 \( wolverine , \) 2 80 10 \( wolverine , man thing \) 2 80 11 \( man thing , ant man \) 1 40 12 \( man thing , colossus \) 1 40 13 \( black panther , \) 1 40 14 \( black panther , nomad \) 1 40 17 \( ron lim art , black panther \) 1 40 18 \( ron lim art , black panther \) 1 40 19 \( rob liefeld art , cyclops \) 1 40 20 \( ron lim art , black panther \) 1 40 21 \( ron lim art , black panther \) 1 40 22 \( ron lim art , black panther \) 1 40 25 \( nth man , havok , panther \) 1 40 26 \( black panther , havok , hulk \) 1 40 27 \( black panther , havok \) 1 40 28 \( black panther , havok \) 1 40 29 \( black panther , havok \) 1 40 30 \( black panther , havok \) 1 40 31 \( erik larsen , excalibur \) 1 40 42 \( wolverine \) 2 10 51 \( rob liefeld , wolverine \) 2 10 52 \( rob liefeld , wolverine \) 2 10 53 \( rob liefeld , silver sable \) 2 10 60 \( wolverine , hulk \) 4 20 62 \( jackson , deathlok \) 5 60 63 \( poison , thor , scarlet witch \) 2 80 64 \( mark texiera , ghost rider \) 3 15 65 \( mark texiera , ghost rider \) 3 15 66 \( mark texiera , ghost rider \) 3 15 67 \( mark texiera , ghost rider \) 3 15 72 \( b w smith , weapon x \) 5 60 73 \( b w smith , weapon x \) 2 80 75 \( b w smith , weapon x \) 2 10 76 \( b w smith , weapon x \) 2 10 77 \( b w smith , weapon x , \) 2 10 80 \( b w smith , weapon x \) 2 10 81 \( b w smith , weapon x \) 1 75 82 \( b w smith , weapon x \) 1 75 83 \( b w smith , weapon x \) 1 75 84 \( b w smith , weapon x \) 1 75 85 \( 1st keith art jae lee \) 4 20 88 \( keith , wolverine , beast \) 2 80 97 \( ghost rider , cable \) 1 40 104 \( wolverine , ghost rider \) 1 05 106 \( wolverine , ghost rider \) 1 05 maxx 1 \( sam keith \) 3 00 1 \( ted \) 3 00 mighty mouse 2 1 25 4 1 00 5 1 00 6 1 00 10 1 00 moon knight 1 \( 1980 \) 3 00 6 1 70 7 1 70 52 \( frank castle \( punisher \) \) 3 15 new mutants 18 \( intro new warlock , magus \) 6 30 85 \( rob liefeld todd mcfarlane cover \) 1 05 86 \( mcfarlane cover , 1st app cable cameo \) 10 50 88 \( rob liefeld , 2nd cable \) 14 00 89 \( rob liefeld , 3rd cable \) 10 50 90 \( rob liefeld , sabretooth appears \) 8 40 91 \( rob liefeld , sabretooth appears \) 8 40 92 \( rob liefeld cover \) 3 50 93 \( rob liefeld , wolverine vs cable \) 10 50 94 \( rob liefeld , wolverine vs cable \) 10 50 96 \( rob liefeld , x agenda \) 8 40 97 \( rob liefeld , wolverine cable cover \) 8 40 98 \( 1st app deadpool , gideon , domino \) 8 40 99 \( 1st app feral x force \) 5 40 100 \( 1st app x force \) 6 30 annual 4 \( evolutionary war \) 2 10 annual 5 \( 1st liefeld art new mutants \) 12 60 annual 6 1 40 annual 7 \( 2nd app x force \) 8 40 summer special 1 \( art adams art \) 2 10 1 \( mcfarlane \) 2 80 omega men 3 \( 1st appearance lobo \) 7 00 10 \( 1st full lobo story \) 7 00 annual 1 1 05 2 1 05 power man iron fist 78 \( 3rd appearance sabretooth \) 25 00 84 \( 4th appearance sabretooth \) 20 00 power pack 27 \( wolverine sabretooth appear \) 7 00 predator big game 3 \( contains trading cards \) 2 10 punisher 9 \( portacio \) 7 70 punisher captain america blood glory 1 5 00 2 5 00 3 5 00 punisher p v 1 \( starlin script , wrightson art \) 5 00 2 \( starlin script , wrightson art \) 5 00 3 \( starlin script , wrightson art \) 5 00 punisher war journal 16 \( jim lee art \) 3 50 29 \( ghost rider appears \) 1 75 30 \( ghost rider appears \) 1 75 31 1 25 32 1 25 35 1 25 36 1 25 38 1 25 39 1 25 40 1 25 punisher war zone 1 \( die cut cover \) 2 45 2 1 75 ragman 1 \( pat broderick , origin ragman \) 3 00 rocketeer special edition \( dave stevens art , 1984 \) 7 00 13 2 50 14 2 50 simpsons comics stories 1 \( polybagged special ed \) 10 00 solar man atom 18 3 00 19 2 75 20 2 75 21 2 50 22 2 50 spectacular spider man 81 \( punisher appears \) 9 80 93 \( answer appears \) 2 10 94 \( cloak dagger appear \) 2 10 95 \( cloak dagger appear \) 2 10 99 \( spot appears \) 2 10 116 \( sabretooth appears \) 3 50 117 \( sabretooth appears \) 3 50 119 \( sabretooth appears \) 3 50 124 \( dr octopus appears \) 1 75 130 \( hobgoblin appears \) 2 80 131 \( kraven appears \) 4 20 132 \( kraven appears \) 3 50 140 \( punisher appears \) 2 10 142 \( punisher appears \) 3 50 143 \( punisher appears \) 3 50 147 \( 1st app new hobgoblin \) 14 00 152 \( origin lobo bros , punisher \) 1 40 157 1 40 158 \( spider man gets new powers \) 8 40 159 \( cosmic spider man appears \) 5 60 160 1 05 189 \( 1st ed hologram , hobgoblin \) 5 60 annual 10 \( mcfarlane story \) 1 75 spider man 1 \( gold edition , direct sale \) 3 50 1 \( regular edition , green , \) 3 50 5 \( lizard , appear , mcfarlane \) 2 80 6 \( hobgoblin , ghost rider appear \) 4 20 7 \( hobgoblin , ghost rider appear \) 4 20 13 \( black costume returns \) 3 50 14 \( black costume , appear \) 5 00 16 \( mcfarlane liefeld art , x force appears \) 3 00 18 \( sinister six , hulk appear \) 2 00 19 \( hulk , deathlok appear \) 2 00 26 \( origin , hologram cover \) 3 00 star trek next generation 1 \( feb 1988 , dc mini \) 7 00 star trek next generation 1 \( oct 1989 , dc comics \) 6 30 2 4 20 strange adventures \( dozens , varying high grades \) ask swamp thing 72 1 25 73 \( john constantine appears \) 1 25 annual 3 1 40 tales teen titans 44 \( deathstroke app \) 5 60 terminator 1 \( dark horse \) 4 20 terminator secondary objectives 1 2 10 terminator 2 judgement day 1 1 00 thor 374 \( mutant massacre , x factor , sabretooth app \) 5 60 432 \( eric masterson becomes new thor \) 2 10 warlock infinity watch 2 \( starlin scripts \) 2 80 3 2 10 4 1 60 5 1 60 6 1 60 7 1 25 8 1 25 9 \( vs thanos \) 1 25 web spider man 2 4 90 3 4 90 4 3 50 5 3 50 8 \( thunder appears \) 3 15 16 \( appears \) 2 30 18 2 30 20 2 30 21 2 30 29 \( hobgoblin , wolverine appear \) 9 10 30 \( origin rose , hobgoblin appears \) 8 40 47 \( hobgoblin appears \) 1 00 52 1 00 66 \( green goblin super hero \) 1 40 67 \( green goblin super hero \) 1 40 68 1 00 71 1 00 72 1 00 73 1 00 74 1 00 75 1 00 76 1 00 77 1 00 78 1 00 79 1 00 80 1 00 81 1 00 82 1 00 83 1 00 84 \( rose hobgoblin story \) 1 00 85 \( rose hobgoblin story \) 1 00 86 \( rose hobgoblin story \) 1 00 87 \( rose hobgoblin story \) 1 00 90 \( hologram cover , polybagged \) 4 20 91 1 00 annual 3 2 00 werewolf night 33 \( 2nd appearance moon knight \) 20 00 37 \( moon knight appears \) 5 00 wolverine 10 \( claws , 1st battle sabretooth \) 16 80 41 \( sabretooth claims wolverine 's dad \) 7 00 42 \( sabretooth proven dad \) 3 50 43 \( sabretooth wolverine saga concludes \) 2 80 wolverine 1 \( 1982 mini series , miller art \) 21 00 wonder woman 267 \( return animal man \) 13 00 annual 1 2 00 2 2 00 x factor 47 1 05 51 \( sabretooth appears \) 3 50 52 \( sabretooth appears \) 3 50 53 \( sabretooth appears \) 3 50 57 1 00 62 \( x agenda , jim lee cover \) 4 20 63 \( whilce portacio art begins \) 4 20 69 \( whilce portacio art \) 1 40 70 \( last old team issue \) 1 40 annual 6 \( new warriors , x force appear \) 1 75 x force 1 \( signed liefeld , bagged , x force card \) 25 00 1 \( signed liefeld , bagged , shatterstar card \) 15 00 1 \( signed liefeld , bagged , deadpool card \) 15 00 1 \( signed liefeld , bagged , sunspot gideon \) 15 00 1 \( bagged , cable card \) 4 20 x men 210 \( mutant massacre , intro marauders \) 12 60 211 \( mutant massacre , marauders appear \) 12 60 212 \( wolverine battles sabretooth \) 22 00 213 \( wolverine battles sabretooth \) 22 00 218 \( art adams cover \) 2 80 226 \( fall mutants \) 5 60 239 \( inferno \) 2 80 245 \( rob liefeld art \) 2 10 253 \( new x men begin \) 2 80 267 \( jim lee art series begins \) 8 40 276 \( jim lee art \) 1 05 277 \( last jim lee art \) 1 05 279 1 05 280 1 05 281 \( new x men team , 1st printing \) 4 20 x 13 3 00 15 3 00 16 3 00 comics near mint mint condition , bagged shiny polypropylene bags , backed white acid free boards shipping 1 50 one book , 3 00 one book , free order large enough amount stuff willing haggle thousands thousands comics , please let know 've looking , maybe help titles posted n't list every issue title , tried save space geoffrey r mason jrm elm circa ufl edu department psychology mason webb psych ufl edu university florida prothan maple circa ufl edu
subject 20 color tv san diego louis netlink cts com \( louis \) organization netlink online communications , san diego ca lines 23 20 color tv san diego mesa college area emerson w high tech square screen best price features timer sleep feature auto shut find fully cable ready w coaxial video audio jacks 20 inch color tv mts \( sound jack \) processing stereo bilingual channels 170 00 firm 19 key remote includes review , recall , sleep features tel 619 278 please reply eis calstate edu fastest response ! louis louis genie l better technology , louis netlink cts com less efficient human use
jrm elm circa ufl edu \( jeff mason \) subject auction marvel , dc , valiant , image , dark horse , etc organization univ florida psychology dept lines 59 nntp posting host elm circa ufl edu following comics minimum bids set would normally sell make offer , accept highest bid auction completed title minimum current alpha flight 51 \( jim lee 's first work marvel \) 5 00 aliens 1 \( 1st app aliens comics , 1st prnt , may 1988 \) 20 00 amazing spider man 136 \( intro new green goblin \) 20 00 amazing spider man 238 \( 1st appearance hobgoblin \) 50 00 archer armstrong 1 \( frank miller smith layton \) 7 50 avengers 263 \( 1st appearance x factor \) 3 50 bloodshot 1 \( chromium cover , bwsmith cover poster \) 5 00 daredevil 158 \( frank miller art begins \) 35 00 dark horse presents 1 \( 1st app concrete , 1st printing \) 7 50 h r corps 1 5 00 incredible hulk 324 \( 1st app grey hulk since 1 , 1962 \) 7 50 incredible hulk 330 \( 1st mcfarlane issue \) 15 00 incredible hulk 331 \( grey hulk series begins \) 11 20 incredible hulk 367 \( 1st dale keown art hulk \) 15 00 incredible hulk 377 \( 1st new hulk , 1st prnt , keown \) 15 00 marvel comics presents 1 \( wolverine , silver surfer \) 7 50 maxx limited ashcan \( 4000 copies exist , blue cover \) 30 00 new mutants 86 \( mcfarlane cover , 1st app cable cameo \) 10 00 new mutants 100 \( 1st app x force \) 5 00 new mutants annual 5 \( 1st liefeld art new mutants \) 10 00 omega men 3 \( 1st appearance lobo \) 7 50 omega men 10 \( 1st full lobo story \) 7 50 power man iron fist 78 \( 3rd appearance sabretooth \) 25 00 84 \( 4th appearance sabretooth \) 20 00 simpsons comics stories 1 \( polybagged special ed \) 7 50 spectacular spider man 147 \( 1st app new hobgoblin \) 12 50 star trek next generation 1 \( feb 1988 , dc mini \) 7 50 star trek next generation 1 \( oct 1989 , dc comics \) 7 50 web spider man 29 \( hobgoblin , wolverine appear \) 10 00 web spider man 30 \( origin rose , hobgoblin appears \) 7 50 wolverine 10 \( claws , 1st battle sabretooth \) 15 00 wolverine 41 \( sabretooth claims wolverine 's dad \) 5 00 wolverine 42 \( sabretooth proven dad \) 3 50 wolverine 43 \( sabretooth wolverine saga concludes \) 3 00 wolverine 1 \( 1982 mini series , miller art \) 20 00 wonder woman 267 \( return animal man \) 12 50 x force 1 \( signed liefeld , bagged , x force card \) 20 00 x force 1 \( signed liefeld , bagged , shatterstar card \) 10 00 x force 1 \( signed liefeld , bagged , deadpool card \) 10 00 x force 1 \( signed liefeld , bagged , sunspot gideon \) 10 00 comics near mint mint condition , bagged shiny polypropylene bags , backed white acid free boards shipping 1 50 one book , 3 00 one book , free order large enough amount stuff willing haggle thousands thousands comics , please let know 've looking , maybe help titles posted n't list every issue title , tried save space geoffrey r mason jrm elm circa ufl edu department psychology mason webb psych ufl edu university florida prothan maple circa ufl edu
cymbal calpoly edu \( david \) subject cobra ssb cb sale ! organization california polytechnic state university , san luis obispo lines 13 well , forsale \( last deal n't work \) lowered price ! cobra 146 single side band w mike 75 best offer ! dave cal poly , life , liberty , slo , ca pursuit land speed records autobahn
aj008 cleveland freenet edu \( aaron barnes \) subject keyboards , drives , radios sale ! organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 24 nntp posting host slc4 ins cwru edu hello items sale terms ups cod money order 2 101 keyboards ibm compatibles 1 mitsumi 1 2 mb 5 1 4 floppy disk drive 1 sony digital fm stereo walkman drive cost 65 , keyboards 40 , sony radio cost 45 sell best offers thank buchanan `96 ! fear goverment fears guns without 2nd amendment , cannot guarantee ou r freedoms aj008 cleveland freenet edu
ecsvax uncecs edu \( j morton \) subject ti 95 modules sale organization unc educational computing service lines 17 texas instruments ti 95 new box w manuals also texas instruments ti 95 statistics library module new box w manual texas instruments ti 95 chemical engineering module new box w manual 100 00 shipping contact morton uncecs edu phones 919 851 \( h \) 919 549 \( w \)
battle cs utk edu \( david battle \) subject summary miscellaneous items sale keywords chemistry ibm pc games clue book ethernet transceiver nintendo reply battle cs utk edu distribution us organization university tennessee , knoxville cs department lines 50 nntp posting host cs utk edu following items sale highest bid arrive email box 5 00 pm edt wednesday april 21 , 1993 gets item 1 senior set safe ages 10 used little 25 bottles different chemicals , plastic balance , alcohol lamp , test tube , paper manual 1100 experiments 4 shipping added bid 2 eye beholder ii fun game ibm pc original box , original media manual 3 shipping added bid 3 clue book eye beholder ii solve hurry find 1 shipping added bid free shipping item bid highest item 2 4 ethernet transceiver \( st 500 \( aui 50 ohm coaxial \) \) works fine nifty blinking leds send receive collision power , etc built includes one 50 ohm terminator 2 shipping added bid 5 super nintendo super controller auto repeated fire hands free continuous fire slow motion \( accomplished automatically pausing \) add one controller console allow two players 2 shipping added bid sure include shipping address bids sure include email address bids send bids battle cs utk edu \( david battle \) informed email bid highest 5 30 pm edt wednesday april 21 , 1993 items shipped us postal service first class cod thursday morning money order bid plus indicated shipping amount needed receive item please keep fact mind bidding david battle cs utk edu
eshneken ux4 cso uiuc edu \( edward shnekendorf \) subject airline ticket washington dc champaign , il \( sale \) organization university illinois urbana lines 9 selling one way ticket washington dc champaign , il \( home university illinois \) willing offer good price interested , please email eshneken uiuc edu thanks , ed
ecsvax uncecs edu \( j morton \) subject big block dodge carburetor organization unc educational computing service lines 11 large 4 barrel carburetor 78 80 big block 360 440 dodge part 4 244 new box w manifold gasket retail 345 00 price 250 00 price 100 00 shipping contact morton uncecs edu phones 919 851 \( h \) 919 549 \( w \)
fang en ecn purdue edu \( wen cheng fang \) subject infinity rs 6 x9 speakers sale \( brand new \) organization purdue university engineering computer network distribution usa lines 23 pair car speakers sale brand new , still box plastic wrap got highland 's going business sale yesterday however wo n't fit car 's rear deck 's right size , trying sale infinity rs three way freq resp 40 hz power capacity 90 watts per channel sensitivity 93 db spl 1w 1m impedance 4 ohms depth 3 list price 200 stereo store 140 165 tax mail order catalog price 149 h price 120 obo shipping please e mail fang en ecn purdue edu call \( 317 \) 743 michael wen cheng fang
subject monitor mike damico cccbbs uucp \( mike damico \) reply mike damico cccbbs uucp \( mike damico \) distribution world organization cincinnati computer connection cincinnati , oh 513 752 1055 lines 2 tracy monitor way mike damico
yuanchie aludra usc edu \( roger hsu \) subject 14 4k fax modem sale organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 28 nntp posting host aludra usc edu slightly used \( less two months old \) sale comes latest rom 1 2h , communication software , fax software , original manuals , original registration card specs model description v 32bis type internal data speed 14 , 400 12 , 000 9600 7200 4800 2400 1200 300 bps data \( upto v 42 data compression \) protocols bell 103 , ccit v 21 v 22 v 22bis v 32 v 32bis v 42 v 42bis , mnp 2 5 , mnp 10 fax 14 , 400 12 , 000 9600 7200 4800 2400 bps send receive fax class 1 2 group iii compatible transmission v 17 , v 29 , v non volatile memory \( tone pulse \) extended commands result codes includes diagnostics , phone jacks , subscriptions free online services 5 year warranty asking 180 \( neg \) h interested , please e mail thanks !
student tc umn edu \( 1 \) subject 486dx 33 intel cpu chip 265 nntp posting host student tc umn edu organization university minnesota distribution na lines 4 upgraded friend 's 486dx 33 chip sale , 486dx 33 intel cpu chip , first us 265 shipping get chip make offer n't like price thanks
ergo wam umd edu \( \) subject brand new software packages sale nntp posting host rac3 wam umd edu organization university maryland , college park distribution um lines 6 looking people buy brand new software packages including microsoft windows , harvard graphics , pagemaker , paradox , lotus , etc 20 25 list price e mail immediately ergo wam umd edu name , phone , email address , software names
rebecca rpi edu \( jonathan conrad \) subject top line jvc portable disc player sale summary jvc portable disc player keywords jvc , jvc , portable cd player , cd , cd player nntp posting host rebecca rpi edu lines 29 used jvc 's top line portable cd player three months mostly used car long trips , less 20 hours use unit one best seen listened , going part install disc changer car features include 17 hz 20 , 000 hz rechargeable nicad batteries wireless remote control ac adaptor headphones carrying belt case digital 6 band graphic eq spectrum analyzer 25 presets , 5 user programmable rca connections cord jvc compulink capability \( cord included \) programmable remote intro , random , repeat playback include \( tm \) power converter convert automobile 's 12v dc 5 5v dc unit requires buy one one fits , \( jvc makes unique connection cannot found radio shack etc \) paid 235 disc player another 30 power converter sell disc player alone 180 , items 190 send replies rpi edu \( 518 \) 271 jon
cunixb cc columbia edu \( francis lee \) subject dayna etherprint 10base \( new cheap \) nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply cunixb cc columbia edu \( francis lee \) organization columbia university lines 28 posting friend contact directly leave e mail forward brand spanking new still original package never opened dayna etherprint rj 45 connector support 10base compliant networks connect localtalk compatible printers directly ethernet networks work localtalk compatible network printer , laserwriter imagewriter ibm personal page printer ii hewlett packard deskwriter hewlett packard laserjet printer family printers daisy chain maximum 4 localtalk devices , workstations modems printers single etherprint device support appletalk phase 1 phase 2 protocols 300 shipping cheap 329 new without 10base mac world contact kam poon 718 332 6 pm est
eos ncsu edu \( roger stephen joyce \) subject mac monitor wanted originator eos ncsu edu reply eos ncsu edu \( roger stephen joyce \) organization north carolina state university , project eos lines 11 wanted color monitor 14 suitable use macintosh centris 610 planning purchasing one machines soon n't want pay full price new monitor used one well one 'd like part , please email specs price thanks roger eos ncsu edu
ux4 cso uiuc edu \( oscar b robles \) subject forsale new software organization university illinois urbana lines 10 bought calculator month ago , used put back box includes manual i'm including 7 high density disks packed dozens hundreds games programs need buy pc cable around 20 bucks could use software 255 shipping included best offer thanx l
virginia edu \( chris dong \) subject wanted memphis sublet organization university virginia lines 6 non smoking , normal law student needs furnished place live memphis summer 'll working firm downtown pass bar character examination , n't worry stuff broken stolen call chris \( 804 \) 979 leave e mail
uxa cso uiuc edu \( fox darin k \) subject sale 386 laptop 80 hd 4m ram summary sale 386 laptop 80m hd 4m ram keywords laptop 386 sale organization university illinois urbana lines 21 sale 386 laptop 80 meg hd 4 meg ram 3 5 fd vga monochrome 64 grey scale math coprocessor ! asking 1500 , best offer must sell soon reply email address call johnny 312 856 email phd cz uchicago edu darin k fox , b '89 , j '92 master univ ill graduate school domain \? library information science seinfeld
subject forsale men without hats folk 80 's part iii vinyl andrew equinox gen nz \( andrew king \) reply andrew equinox gen nz distribution world organization x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 14 evil death \( mute bigwpi wpi edu \) wrote men without hats folk 80 's \( part iii \) vinyl anyone willing part copy men without hats , pop goes world ! album vinyl perhaps cd please contact , wish purchase ! andrew equinox gen nz \) \( \) u 's late \( \) tea lemmings please !
nyx cs du edu \( ibrahim \) subject terminal forsale organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept lines 1
nyx cs du edu \( ibrahim \) subject terminal sale organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept distribution usa lines 5 vt100 compatible terminal 1200 external modem amber screens 101 keyboard , cable make offer 0
carson u washington edu \( keith frederick \) subject gre gre economics test books sale organization university washington , seattle lines 34 distribution usa nntp posting host carson u washington edu summary gre , gre economics test books sale gre test aids sale cliffs gre preparation guide , \( c \) 1992 3 full length tests w answers explanations also includes test taking strategies people cliffs notes 5 gre economics test research education association revised 1990 edition includes 6 full length exams detailed explanations solutions question 648 pages ! 10 practicing take gre economics test ets includes official full length gre economics test 1985 1986 included explanations 4 practicing take gre general test 8 ets includes three official gre general tests 1989 1990 \( w answers explanations \) one additional gre general test complete explanations answers 8 shipping 1 extra buy everything 25 cover shipping keith r frederick happiness moral purpose \( 206 \) 285 1576 see dr fu , kill ! carson u washington edu reason absolute i'm number , i'm free man ! cis , cornell come ! ! !
rpi edu \( brian craig \) subject speakers sale nntp posting host rpi edu organization rensselaer polytechnic institute , troy , ny lines 22 sale bose a5 subwoofer 1 month old 2 advent minis 4 months old email offers rpi edu
james pics twwells com \( james \) subject math copro sale trade reply james pics twwells com \( james \) organization pics online ! multiuser system 609 753 2540 lines 14 looking math coprocessor 286 16mhz 10 12 also 16 sale trade jim 1st 1 cutting edge software evolution pics online multiuser system \( 609 \) 753 2540 hst 609 753 1549 \( v32 \) massive file collection 45 , 000 files online 250 newsgroups
bitnet subject software sale organization north dakota higher education computer network lines 34 hi , following software forsale microsoft ms dos 5 0 3 5 dd 15 good buy n't need utils dos 6 0 accolade ii 5 25 dd 10 good arcade baseball game , graphics sound pretty good , ability make schedules edit player stats accolade third courier 5 25 hd 5 adventure spy type game ega earl weaver 2 3 5 dd 15 good arcade strategy type baseball game , ability play league play , mlb stats 1990 1991 ega soviet attack fighter 3 5 dd 10 good fighter simulation , various missions levels play sierra 3 5 5 25 5 arcade shoot 'em type game , nice music sound effects scrabble 3 5 5 computer version popular board game i'm willing negotiate prices , prices include shipping shipping costs split 50 50 drop line ! \) roberto programmer analyst vm1 nodak edu university north dakota
organization american university university computing center joseph iii auvm american edu subject ! ! ! ! jazz cd 4 sale trade ! lines 7 unopened cd called bird original recordings charlie parker , among others miles davis , dizzy , red rodney , monk , lester young would willing sell highest bidder , else trade another jazz cd would interested joe
judy uh edu subject wholesale tv sets organization university houston lines 3 reply judy uh edu nntp posting host judy uh edu representing chinese tv manufacturers want wholesale products latin american countries looking brokers agents help us products include color black white tvs 11 24 interested , please e mail fax mr z ho 713 926 7953 \( usa \) information inquiries good commission
seas upenn edu \( dave \) subject ticket san francisco philadelphia distribution na organization dept mechanical engineering applied mechanics lines 20 nntp posting host seas upenn edu one way ticket \( return leg ticket \) female traveler san francisco st louis philadelphia may 21 , 1993 \( friday \) leaves 10 25 arrives phila 8 43 pm 150 best offer return e mail call 215 387 \( home \) 215 898 \( office \)
adelphi edu \( jamie fitzpatrick \) subject camera keywords camera organization adelphi university lines 20 hello , observatory came across mentioned camera manufactured instrument corporation florida 1970 questions 1 \) anyone knowledge \? 2 \) anyone know company \( phone numbers \? \) \? 3 \) others need parts responces greatly appreciated take care , jamie adelphi edu
tin eng sun com \( tin \) subject cellular phone \( portable \) sale organization sun microsystems inc , mountain view , ca lines 16 distribution usa nntp posting host summary takes longer 24 hours article cup portal com , mmm cup portal com \( mark robert thorson \) writes offer 100 , shipment seller 's expense , payment personal check sent u mail within 24 hours receiving goods reserve right return goods , expense , find defective otherwise unacceptable receive \( either merchandise check would mailed within 24 hours \) mark thorson hope realize cellular phone , need subscribe cellular carrier , usually takes least one working day service available find whether phone working tin
jmu acpub duke edu \( joshua unger \) subject intel fax modem sale organization duke university durham , n c lines 15 nntp posting host raphael acpub duke edu intel modem 100 internal sale runs 2400 baud data mode 9600 baud class 1 fax modem transmits 9600 baud \( v 29 \) receives 4800 baud \( v 27 ter \) modem original manuals comes software , intel 's , well crosstalk communicator used modem less hour came computer already another one would like ask 50 modem , entertain serious offers please email jmu acpub duke edu thanks
jmu acpub duke edu \( joshua unger \) subject 486sx motherboard case mouse organization duke university durham , n c lines 54 nntp posting host raphael acpub duke edu hello , motherboard case sale package came compuadd computer bought last august presently upgrading specs motherboard cyrix 25 mhz microprocessor chips technology chipset \( v2 3 6 \) 8 simm banks maximum 32 megs ram built floppy hard drive controllers built ports 1 parallel , 2 serial \( 9 25 pin \) built paradise svga controller 1 meg ram \( windows drivers inc \) 1024x768 256 colors based western digital chip math co processor slot 3 16 bit expansion slots 2 8 bit expansion slots case low profile desktop nice grey color 150 watt power supply room 2 floppies plus hd mouse 3 button microsoft compatible grey color matches case original manuals documentation , video drivers , etc included probably wondering must sell case motherboard simply case custom made particular board would hard pressed fit another mb however , case motherboard made go together fit perfectly see , since board includes drive controllers video controller , save money buying unit mb would need get io cards , video card , drive controllers lot convenient whole would like ask 500 whole package think fair price given facts includes video card drive controllers io ports need add drives , monitor , ram , keyboard also keep mind n't generic board , compuadd also entertain serious offers please email jmu acpub duke edu thanks j
rahul net \( carl merritt \) subject hds computer parts sale wanted nntp posting host bolero organization a2i network x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 26 sale fujitsu scsi drive 450 maxtor esdi drive 425 maxtor esdi drive 225 toshiba ide drive 175 xt case motherboard 50 dtc 16 bit mfm 2hd controler 30 items used , full working condition , warranty one week unless otherwise specified prices 100 negotiable , shipping included wanted developers kit sb 17 svga \( two \) carl merritt rahul net
bonnie ics uci edu \( foley \) subject lots neat ibm clone stuff sale lines 34 1 \) complete system sale svga card w color vga monitor 2s 1p 2 floppies \( 1 44 1 2 \) 230 watt power supply 1 meg ram installed 80 meg ide hard drive best offer 2 \) bits pieces \) ide controller card b \) internal 2400 baud modem c \) cpu \) 3 megs simm memory e \) standard vga card 3 \) panasonic wide carriage 24 pin printer brand new condition comes plenty 'o ribbons parallel serial ports nice crisp output items beautiful condition fully functional willing provide net references needed best offers items snag 'em thanks time ! foley bonnie uci ics edu office 714 830
bob fidonet org \( bob \) subject new aircraft tu 154m lines 42 dj subject new aircraft tu 154m leasing , set spare parts category offers leasing headline new aircraft tu 154m mr director btw , guys minds , propaganda effective believe netters could actually buy stuff land driveway \? much soda pop , quick go look tu 154m , airliner hand books dj j morton environmental resource sciences hastings prince edward regiment trent university peterborough , ontario canada dj things wrong potential sale dj aircraft dj starting new aircraft market dj \( airlines taking delivery , new dj planes \) dj unless fuel efficiency better 320 dj boeing 767 , plane economically feasible dj major players \( airlines \) unless price real cheap , dj owner n't care fuel economy \( saudi dj family , maybe \? \? \) sales ought pretty ummm 'd surprised could n't find gov't aid program subsidize lease could make quite attractive arrangement bizarre \? yes impossible \? really life like analogy ! yeah ! 's ticket !
crow csrv uidaho edu \( todd \) subject forsale norman rockwell organization university idaho , moscow , idaho lines 21 distribution world nntp posting host crow csrv uidaho edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 okay , okay , norman n't actually sale two saturday even post 's , norman rockwell illustrations front cover october 29 , 1960 candidate kennedy campaign , obviously , norman rockwell kennedy cover november 5 , 1960 candidate nixon campaign nixon 's crook good condition let know 're interested , tune \( \) todd group moscow , idaho
bitzm columbia dsu edu \( michael bitz \) subject want 486sx dx chips ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! lines 14 organization dakota state university lines 14 market couple intel 486 chips please let know one \( \) sale interested sx dx models , must intel email bitzm columbia dsu edu mike bitz internet bitzm columbia dsu edu research development bitzm dsuvax dsu edu dakota state university bitnet s93020 sdnet bitnet
atlantis csos orst edu \( mike \) subject final public dragon magazine update \( last chance public bids \) keywords dragon magazine auction bid article distribution usa organization cs dept oregon state university , corvallis , oregon lines 170 nntp posting host atlantis csos orst edu final public update dragon magazine auction new bids current bids stand \( like 's gonna happen \) \) , updates e mail entire auction end soon bids stop coming want get , sure bid bids must made least 25 cent buyer pay shipping \( unless particular fancy , us mail 4th class special , lots padding \) dragons bagged condition vary quite bit , 've come condition system dragons may missing items like inserts questions , feel free ask condition ratings usually evaluation cover , material inside great shape excellent ie find store good still great condition , tell 's good line fair fair indicates lots use \( still decent \) poor indicates material inside may damaged \( usually scissors \) condition indicates something magazine missing \( usually insert \) 'll post another public update sometime weekend \( final public posting , auction e mail bidding stops \) questions , ask away arrow 2 50 fair top secret module missing bard real maps tn de7 3 0 good forest doom module \( detached included \) inner planes 1 75 good combat computer missing 4 dragons tn de7 1 50 good vg monsters ad module \( detached included \) language lesson geoffrey 1 50 good vg top secret module \( detached included \) magic resistance 2 50 081 fair high level ad module \( detached included \) poison material spell components uccxkvb 2 00 fair races game insert missing spell research tn de7 1 50 083 good vg 's hut module \( detached included \) unarmed combat geoffrey 1 50 fair cover missing twofold module squidly 1 75 good twofold module squidly 1 75 good top secret module geoffrey 1 50 088 good hunt insert missing falling damage marvel geoffrey 1 50 089 good creature catalog missing shields sci fi tn de7 1 5 094 good ranger changes creature catalog ii \( detached included \) geoffrey 1 50 095 fair cover missing forgotten module , detached included ykcheu 2 75 fair 9th anniversary dragons mutant manual uccxkvb 1 75 099 poor cover missing treasure ii , pictures cut thedm 2 50 100 good poster missing city beyond gate module \( detached included \) raised dragon texture cover geoffrey 1 50 101 fair cover missing creature catalog iii \( detached included \) geoffrey 1 50 102 fair cover missing valley earth mother middle level module \( detached included \) geoffrey 1 50 103 fair cover attached update missing future ad centaur papers geoffrey 1 50 103 fair update missing geoffrey 1 50 104 fair vf marvel module thieves cover detached included geoffrey 1 50 105 fair ad module invisibility cover back cover detached included uccxkvb 2 00 106 fair cover 1 2 variations skills 4 rangers ykcheu 2 75 106 good vg variations skills rangers arrow 2 50 107 fair cover missing dragons glory supplement geoffrey 1 50 108 good mutant manual ii environmental effects cover taped reinforced thedm 2 00 108 good mutant manual ii environmental effects ykcheu 2 25 109 good customizing classes agent 13 poster geoffrey 1 50 109 fair customizing classes agent 13 poster missing geoffrey 1 50 110 good house frozen lands module 10th squidly 1 75 110 good house frozen lands module 10th geoffrey 1 50 111 good murder mystery ad module ykcheu 2 50 112 good ultimate article index monsters 2 50 114 fair cavalier witch npc class ykcheu 1 75 115 good snakes squidly 1 75 116 good vg 3 ship cardboard insert wild animals dr uccxkvb 2 50 117 good vg dice odds creative campaigns sage advice bazaar geoffrey 1 50 118 good 's keep game uccxkvb 2 00 120 vg ex april fool 's issue uccxkvb 2 00 121 excellent oriental adventures cardboard castle insert geoffrey 1 50 122 excellent 11th african beasts druids uccxkvb 2 50 123 good magic thedm 2 25 123 good magic arrow 2 5 124 excellent aerial adventures 2nd edition \? uccxkvb 2 25 124 excellent aerial adventures 2nd edition \? geoffrey 1 50 125 good clay rama ! quasi geoffrey 1 50 125 vg ex clay rama ! quasi uccxkvb 2 50 126 vg ex uccxkvb 2 00 127 good fighters 3 00 128 good king 's table insert game 3 00 129 excellent humans uccxkvb 2 50 130 vg ex arcane arts 2 50 131 excellent arrow 1 5 131 vg ex uccxkvb 2 0 132 good ! board game missing arrow 1 5 133 good spies roman gods marvel index geoffrey 1 50 133 good spies roman gods marvel index 3 00 134 vg ex 12 anniversary dragons tbh1 2 135 good space sage advice uccxkvb 2 0 135 good space sage advice tbh1 4 0 136 good cities urban adventures tbh1 3 137 excellent wilderness arrow 1 5 138 good horror \( \) uccxkvb 3 25 139 good pages uccxkvb 3 5 140 excellent healers tbh1 3 141 good tbh1 2 142 good ad 2nd edition preview uccxkvb 3 25 143 good dm 's issue uccxkvb 2 00 145 good poster missing thedm 2 5 146 good poster missing 13 dragons tbh1 3 00 147 excellent magus ! board game magic tbh1 3 5 148 excellent fighting deck many things insert tn de7 2 0 149 excellent \( particular feature \) tn de7 2 00 150 excellent horror \( issue \) tn de7 2 00 151 excellent oriental adventures eastern tn de7 2 00 152 good poster missing inside slight cover , noticable inspection tn de7 2 0 153 good gods tn de7 1 75 154 good vg poster story war tn de7 2 00 155 excellent dungeon module tn de7 1 75 157 good buck rogers thedm 2 00 158 good 14th anniversary dragons uccxkvb 2 00 159 excellent poster missing 2 00 160 good vg urban adventures ad trading card insert missing uccxkvb 2 25 161 good dm issue tn de7 1 75 162 good poster missing thedm 2 0 163 excellent insert magic tn de7 2 0 164 good oriental adventures tn de7 1 75 165 vg ex sea tn de7 1 75 166 excellent sci fi \( games \) dino wars insert missing tn de7 1 75 167 excellent nature wilderness uccxkvb 2 5 169 good slight crease back cover misc items featured thedm 2 5 170 good slight crease cover dragon kings game insert dragons 15th anniversary issue uccxkvb 2 00 171 excellent missing poster trading cards \( argh ! \) 2 75 172 excellent 2 173 excellent dark sun 2 174 excellent horror 3 00 175 excellent world building campaign help tn de7 2 00 176 excellent elves giant poster inside tn de7 1 5 177 good poster dm help \( gunpowder \) 3 0 178 excellent fighters fighter class tn de7 2 50 179 excellent form magic items featured tn de7 2 50 181 excellent calendar poster tn de7 2 50 182 excellent 16 anniversary issue dragons tn de7 2 50 184 excellent non player character enhancement tn de7 1 75 185 excellent dark sun campaign monsters dark sun geoffrey 1 50 186 excellent horror tn de7 1 75 187 excellent wilderness outdoors notice errors , please let know \( slight name , 's close name , 's \) \)
harry powell watson andrew cmu edu subject boss guitar pedal organization freshman , design , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 5 nntp posting host po3 andrew cmu edu reply sony com sale one boss turbo overdrive pedal guitar , bass , keyboards 35 best offer thanks ! ! respond call 268 harry
steveg ravel udel edu \( steven n \) subject dbase iv sale \( price dropped ! \) nntp posting host ravel udel edu organization university delaware distribution usa lines 3 dbase iv , ver 1 5 , 3 5 disks manuals still shrinkwrapped , registration materials present asking 125
charles p cox , jr cox snowhite eeap cwru edu subject pc stuff forsale organization case western reserve university lines 44 distribution world nntp posting host student cwru edu x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d17 x xxmessage id student cwru edu x xxdate sun , 18 apr 93 21 35 42 gmt following items sale buyer pays shipping costs hardware new unused unless marked otherwise software includes original disks manuals reasonable offers refused send offers questions po cwru edu hardware hercules graphics card mono graphics printer ports hercules color card color graphics printer ports teac 1 2mb 5 25 floppy drive n't work , sold parts ibm async card serial card pc xt machines , comes support software kraft joystick works pc compatibles apple ii series \( mac \) 360k 5 25 floppy disks 200 bulk grade disks 2 floppy disk storage boxes holds 60 5 25 disks , one lock software microsoft macro assembler 5 0 5 1 update large manual tutorial included sideways 3 0 rotates wide spreadsheets 90 degrees print 1 page games wwii submarine space station oblivion arcade style game similar spectre demon dungeon game , like gauntlet ii , , adventure mystery games jack unlimited golf course design excellent golf game war middle earth similar games , based 's hobbit 4 excellent chess game , play someone computer silent service ii submarine simulation charles p cox , jr computer engineering case western reserve university po cwru edu
ponder csci unt edu \( orion \) subject 386 40 500 ! organization university north texas lines 18 sale 386 40 vga color monitor , dual floppy , vga card 1mb board , joystick , mouse , 2 mb ram , hard drive 500 ! respond quickly ! orion fabulous 're part solution , beasts , 're part precipitate john
subject joe record wanted eis calstate edu \( richard j brooks \) organization calif state univ electronic information services lines 7 anyone joe 's record fiddle fire would like sell please contact richard j brooks \( el , ca \) internet eis calstate edu compuserve , 3406 internet 3406 compuserve com
cow eng umd edu \( thomas l \) subject 1992 honda accord organization project glue , university maryland , college park lines 11 distribution world nntp posting host pepsi eng umd edu 1992 honda accord sale 35 , 000 miles highway miles excellent condition white ex model loaded 15 , 000 best offer call tom \( 201 \) 653 h \( 201 \) 795 w
mark business uwo ca \( mark \) subject cellular phone \( portable \) sale organization western business school distribution usa summary takes longer 24 hours nntp posting host home business uwo ca lines 19 hope realize cellular phone , need subscribe cellular carrier , usually takes least one working day service available find whether phone working tin true dial 811 listen recording get , phone recognized network would n't able dial real number yet \( course ! \) mark , located sunny london , ontario internet mark business uwo ca ip address 129 100 29 33 packet uwo phone \( 519 \) 661
prism cs orst edu \( \) subject texas star linear amplifier tornado 100 linear 150 100 keywords 10m linear amplifier watts hf article flop distribution usa organization oregon state university , computer science dept lines 16 nntp posting host prism cs orst edu looking amateur radio operator needs variable power linear amplifier 2 looks works like new runs 12v mobile use input 5 10 watts output 175 watts , 350 watts pep ssb need 150 's much , also tornado 100 takes 5w 100 100 reply callsign , address phone number verification license prices include shipping packaging kay prism cs orst edu \( 503 \) 737
danj iat holonet net \( dana james \) subject trade 14 4k modem pc xt organization holonet national internet access system 510 704 1058 modem lines 20 trade old pc new modem modem comes good travel europe 14 4 v 42bis modem modem features mnp5 2 1 compression error correction v 42bis 4 1 compression error correction ccitt v 32bis compatible \( 14 4k bps \) ccitt v 32 compatible \( 9 6k bps \) ccitt v 22bis compatible \( 2 4k bps \) command set compatible compatible ibm pc xt 386 's compatibles bundled communications software pc bus interface two connectors phone line e mail danj holonet net
gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) subject st \( tos \) sf movie videotapes \( beta \) sale trade repost summary trade beta , used cd 's barter merchandise nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) organization phds hall distribution na lines 52 nyx cs du edu \( norm \) writes following videos sale viewed good condition star trek \( tos \) collector 's edition 79 episodes \( 39 tapes \) asking 800 lot 've got 7 episodes left beta sale us 8 \( neg \) , trade 1 1 movie beta used cd , package deal 50 whatever care propose trade e g , set good stereo headphones \( e g sony v6 v7 \) , apple iwii sheet feeder , good used fm cassette stereo walkman hotel coupon \( \) free stays fob new york city \( guests coming ! \) \) remaining collection follows 8 charlie x 11 dagger mind 12 17 shore leave 20 alternative factor 29 operation annihilate ! 33 \? numbers indicate episode numbering tape boxes , keeping track episodes 're missing manner rsvp summaries , necessary tapes excellent condition original packaging played least , played , none played twice running time 50 min ea \( , store bought originals unlike incredible beta sound ! \) also following sf horror movies beta well us 10 \( negotiable \) trade \( 1 1 swap movie beta used cd \) bride \( sting , jennifer \) buck rogers universe \( buster , moore \) rsvp larger beta movies music trade list , find misc forsale ! gld ps may wonder , beta alive pro hobbyist format 's life beyond corner video store ! \( je souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go ! ! ! gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
ychen hubcap clemson edu \( eric chen \) subject nec multisync plus mac pc 250 organization clemson university , clemson sc lines 8 nec multisync plus , model jc , 15 , , 250 shipping price send offer less asking thank
danj iat holonet net \( dana james \) subject trade 14 4k modem pc xt organization holonet national internet access system lines 5 email replies danj holonet net
subject new computer books sale uceng uc edu \( parikh \) distribution usa organization university cincinnati lines 15 hi ! several computer related books sale new , unused hence excellent condition subjects include programming languages \( c , c , lisp , prolog \) , operating systems \( unix , dos \) , windows , x windows , lan , ai , expert systems interested , pls contact ucunix san uc edu thanks parikh
laird pasture ecn purdue edu \( kyler laird \) subject wanted hp \( \) organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 10 need used scanners i'm limiting selection hp models document think means plus one want sell , please tell kyler p need one mac interface others ibm pc compatibles
bitzm columbia dsu edu \( michael bitz \) subject adlib sound board sale ! lines 17 organization dakota state university lines 17 adlib sound board sale includes original disks , 'll throw windows 3 1 wav sound file driver using pc speaker games , much welcomed board pc ! 70 00 includes shipping home office email bitzm columbia dsu edu mike bitz internet bitzm columbia dsu edu research development bitzm dsuvax dsu edu dakota state university bitnet s93020 sdnet bitnet
cats ucsc edu \( \) subject forsale 20 organization university california santa cruz lines 97 distribution usa nntp posting host si ucsc edu following used like new condition category title price horror rabid 20 00 blood tale two little old ladies open surprise package hell clv side 2 88 min horror forbidden world 20 00 subject 20 half human , one researchers father roger , prod clv 77 min horror horror planet 20 00 alien creature waiting million years breed , time come clv 93 min horror 20 00 upstairs shower , sexy ms frightful fun comes head clv 92 min murder island 20 00 illustrated needs cover girl competition fierce , fierce clv 85 min comedy hysterical 20 00 's farce , contemporary satire , sight dead people singing dancing hudson brothers clv 90 min comedy hollywood hot 2 20 00 valley girl , crystal , back another hollywood hot clv 100 min comedy beverly hills 20 00 scooter 's trouble , n't take credit cards martin clv 90 min comedy 6 5000 20 00 good citizens invite , frighteningly funny event year ed jr , jeff clv 94 min comedy meet 20 00 makes married children gang look sane ! say butt polish clv 89 min comedy n't tell mom 's dead 20 00 rules nagging pulse home alone times 5 ! clv 105 min animated sea 20 00 9 hilarious cartoon adventures high seas clv 60 min color musical babes toyland 20 00 disney make classic annette , tommy sands , ray , ed wynn clv 105 min action american angels baptism blood 20 00 meet first ladies wrestling ! clv 99 min making runaway train 52 pickup 20 00 behind scenes action displayed pleasure jon ann 43 min drama posed playboy 20 00 fantasy meets reality ! carter clv 98 min shipping costs 5 00 per disk \( 3 00 disk 3 disks \) added total 10 orders 5 titles mo checks accepted advance payment larry \( 408 \) 426 mack santa cruz ca us
cats ucsc edu \( \) subject magazines forsale organization university california santa cruz lines 107 distribution usa nntp posting host si ucsc edu discounts ! please take 2 00 item 10 00 1 00 item 5 00 list magazines , including asking price strategy tactics magazine \( include games \) new \( 52 79 90 mailed games inclusions \) issue title asking 52 oil war american intervention persian gulf 35 00 79 berlin '85 enemy gates 20 00 81 tito partisan army yugoslavia , 1941 45 20 00 83 kaiser 's battle german offensive march , 1918 20 00 84 operation grenade feb 23 mar 5 , 1945 20 00 89 race messina jul 10 aug 17 , 1943 20 00 90 battle colonies take offensive 1778 20 00 end era new \( 113 127 mailed games inclusions envelope \) issue title asking 113 battle \( magazine \) 15 00 115 russian 15 00 116 rebellion 15 00 117 north german plain modern germany 15 00 118 tigers burning camp ukraine 44 15 00 120 15 00 122 pegasus bridge beginning day 15 00 123 campaigns valley 15 00 124 fortress russian winter offensive 43 15 00 125 far seas german cruiser operations wwii 15 00 126 beirut 1982 arab 15 00 127 rush glory war mexico 47 15 00 ah general magazine \( many articles included issue \) issue title asking vol 7 80 doom 8 00 17 2 11 80 fortress europa 8 00 17 4 1 81 circus maximus 8 00 17 5 3 81 8 00 17 6 5 81 , squad leader clinic 8 00 18 1 campaign magazine \( many articles included issue \) issue title asking 97 doom 8 00 101 cross iron 8 00 102 8 00 104 squad leader variant 8 00 106 's 1941 8 00 108 battle gulf 8 00 magazine prices include postage issues new like new condition games books publications , inc attack mutants introductory game 5 00 \( , new \) complete book \( print \) 30 00 author jon freeman \( part 1 introduction 75 pages including ch 4 introductory \) \( complete information 150 1980 \) hardcover , 285 pages , large format shipping extra books games prefer money orders payment , 'll allow personal checks clear shipping larry larry 7th avenue 10 santa cruz , ca \( 408 \) 426 x 358 \( w \) \( 408 \) 475 \( h \)
nevada edu \( \) subject software hardware sale nntp posting host helios nevada edu organization university nevada system computing services lines 21 following items sale animation works software macintosh gold disk brand new shrink wrapped copy microsoft excel windows ver 4 0 opened , includes everything including registration card video7 vga card 512 video memory 800x600 resolution everex internal modem video card modem used items interested make reasonable offer wish ship ups cod please email nevada edu thank nevada edu
dwilson csugrad cs vt edu \( david wilson \) subject need apartment room boston lines 10 organization virginia tech computer science dept , blacksburg , va lines 10 boston \( cambridge specifically \) working summer need place stay room , anything sort would appreciate mail 20 year old white male flexible adapt smoking non smoking environment access 't' would nice , though car thus need parking space would need late may early june end july responses welcome mike mbeck vtssi vt edu
dwilson csugrad cs vt edu \( david wilson \) subject computer audio video furniture needed 4 18 lines 60 organization virginia tech computer science dept , blacksburg , va lines 60 unless otherwise noted , mainly interested used items \( \) following sale , please contact email mbeck vtssi vt edu phone \( 703 \) 552 4381 usmail michael beck 1200 progress street 5500e blacksburg , virginia 24060 please give much info possible \( brand , age , condition , etc \) wanted , 4 16 93 computer equip 1 cheap tape drive pretty much kind \( used \) 1 memory ps 2 model \( new used \) 1 macintosh computer 1 486 66mhz chip \( new used \) 1 colorado tape drive , 250 megabyte , w 5 tapes \( used \) 1 101 key keyboard 1 high density \( 1 2 mb \) 5 1 4 disk drive 1 printer hp laser hp deskjet series 1 printer 24 pin deskjet 1 high density \( 1 2 mb \) 5 1 4 disk drive external 1 adaptec 1542 scsi 16 bit hd fd controller \( used \) 1 piggy back memory expansion intel 386 1 130 mb ide hard drive 2 17 monitor , 1280 resolution , 28 dot pitch better , digital non computer equip 1 drum set mult amps band 1 tv 27 bigger , stereo 1 vcr 4 heads , stereo 1 receiver 100 watts w dolby surround sound capability 1 bed full queen sized local offers , please 1 desk local offers , please due shipping constraints
dwilson csugrad cs vt edu \( david wilson \) subject , amiga 3000 , hp sale 4 18 lines 49 organization virginia tech computer science dept , blacksburg , va lines 49 interested \( \) following , please contact email mbeck vtssi vt edu phone \( 703 \) 552 4381 usmail michael beck 1200 progress street 5500e blacksburg , virginia 24060 sale 4 16 93 1 panasonic af x8 ccd camcorder vhs hq high speed shutter flying erase head ca 3 years old , used lightly date time stamp counter memory rec review fade back light auto manual focus built microphone jack external microphone comes sturdy aluminum carrying case \( 20 long x 13 wide x 6 high \) shoulder strap power adaptor battery charger battery pack remote recording controller uhf vhf cable adaptor audio video cables adaptor dimensions \( measured around features \) 15 long x 4 wide x 8 high \( w handle \) asking price best offer far 350 , looking \( 700 new price \) 1 amiga 25mhz , unix compatible machine w 100 meg hard drive , 4 meg ram , monitor , keyboard \( esc keys broken \) asking price 1500 obo 1 hewlett packard printer w hp ib interface like new original box asking price 250 obo sold ! ! portable cellular phone , model 3730 asking price sold 350 \( listed 600 new \) sold ! ! compaq lte 286 laptop contact details best offer far sold 475
ac999135 umbc edu \( ac999135 \) subject wanted cheap used gameboy tg 16 games organization university maryland , baltimore county campus lines 7 distribution world nntp posting host umbc edu x auth user ac999135 title says cheap used gameboy tg 16 \( 2 player \) games , please email offers rohit
chungy2 aix rpi edu \( yau felix chung \) subject technical books sale nntp posting host aix rpi edu lines 39 hello following sale books perfect condition interested please e mail chungy2 rpi edu telescope \( hard cover \) 14 00 surface physics \( soft cover \) 13 00 physics structurally matter introduction \( soft cover \) 55 00 physics \( hard cover \) 57 00 first general relativity \( hard cover \) 20 00 non equilibrium thermodynamics \( soft cover \) 8 00 advances atomic molecular physics vol 1 \( hard cover \) 30 00 advances atomic molecular physics vol 3 \( hard cover \) 30 00 molecular beams \( hard cover \) 15 00 molecular beams reaction \( hard cover \) 20 00 methods applied mathematics \( hard cover \) 40 00 elementary differential equations boundary value problems \( hard cover \) 27 00 vector mechanics engineers dynamics \( hard cover \) 30 00 free electron lasers \( hard cover \) 20 00 physical mechanics \( hard cover \) 15 00
radley gibbs oit unc edu \( keith radley \) subject electronics summary vcr amp nntp posting host gibbs oit unc edu organization university north carolina chapel hill distribution usa lines 18 curtis mathes vhs vcr remote included works universal remotes 2 heads , works great replaced stereo vcr paid 300 years ago , sell 125 delivered obo radio shack stereo amp 2 inputs , tone , left right volume speakers included compact unit 20 plus shipping great amiga stereo output soundblaster output interested either mail , keith , radley gibbs oit unc edu call 919 968 sold deals fell thru still interested either email call major computer science eith radley minor english radley gibbs oit unc edu computer amiga 3000 university north carolina
fields cis ohio state edu \( jonathan david fields \) subject misc stuff sale organization ohio state university dept computer info science lines 38 distribution usa nntp posting host frigate cis ohio state edu misc items sale mount plate sony model cpm , mounting plate sony portable cd players portable plugs car lighter , snaps onto bottom sony cd player portable cd player , perfect condition also throw cassette adapter condition paid 45 asking 30 car speakers sherwood 5 1 4 two way car speakers , car 7 months , 5 1 4 inch excellent condition , paid 65 asking 40 4 inch factory speakers toyota excellent condition asking 20 nintendo nintendo game boy , light boy , tetris , super mario land , gameboy nfl football , adventure , hyper runner , 4 years games old working condition , asking 70 accessories whole internet whole internet user 's guide catalog ed krol , book guide using internet , information resources paid 30 asking 20 microsoft never used , came computer , asking 30 visual basic microsoft came computer , never used , asking 100 word windows thanks , jonathan fields fields cis ohio state edu
mkbaird david wheaton edu \( marcus k baird \) subject cd roms 4 sale \( new \) update ! ! ! organization wheaton college , il lines 102 i'm looking find people interested getting cd rom 's list prices interested , send mail guarantee price local shipping cost , cod cost prefer shipped way marcus updated prices last post american business dos 20 00 animals dos 30 00 animals mpc 18 00 birds dos 20 00 mammals dos 20 00 barney bear goes school dos 30 00 bible library dos 45 00 bibles religion dos 15 00 book lists dos 30 00 family choice dos 23 00 select dos 24 33 business economics dos 19 00 business backgrounds dos 20 00 business master dos 20 00 san diego \( \) mpc 22 00 cd play launch dos 25 00 cd rom software dos 20 00 cia dos 35 00 chess master 3000 mpc dos 20 00 classic collection dos 40 00 dos 15 00 cookbook dos 15 00 's atlas usa win 25 00 desert storm mpc 25 00 arcade battles dos 15 00 dictionaries language dos 15 00 education master dos 20 00 electronic home library dos 35 00 family doctor dos 16 00 family encyclopedia dos 49 00 family encyclopedia mpc 49 00 game master dos 15 00 game pack ii dos 25 00 golden immortal dos 25 00 great cities world dos 25 00 cities world mpc 30 00 great cities world ii dos 25 00 great cities world ii mpc 30 00 encyclopedia dos 40 00 encyclopedia mpc 40 00 disc 1992 dos 13 00 ham radio dos 15 00 information usa dos 35 00 islands designs dos 20 00 jets props dos 18 00 jones fast lane dos mps 17 00 kgb cia world fact book dos 25 00 kings quest 5 dos mpc 20 00 library future dos 90 00 loom dos 22 00 mpc wizard mpc 15 00 macmillan kids dictionary mpc 48 00 magazine rack dos 25 00 majestic places dos 20 00 beacon teaches typing mpc 35 00 mixed mother goose dos mpc 18 00 money , money , money , dos 20 00 monkey island dos 22 00 oak cd stand dos 15 00 solar system dos 15 00 presidents dos 85 00 publish v 3 0 dos 20 00 reference library dos 35 00 secret weapons mpc 22 00 games dos 35 00 overload dos 15 00 sher holmes consul det mpc 35 00 sleeping beauty dos 20 00 cd software bundle 4 titles n 90 00 stellar 7 dos mpc 17 00 story time interactive dos 14 00 cd rom collection dos 15 00 time magazine almanac current dos 22 00 time table sci innovation dos 25 00 tons gigs dos 49 00 many dos 15 00 total baseball dos 30 00 us atlas w dos 22 00 us history dos 28 00 us world atlas dos mpc 18 00 us wars civil war dos 25 00 wild places dos 20 00 wing com ultima vi dos mpc 22 00 world view dos 25 00 e mail mkbaird david wheaton edu mkbaird david bitnet uunet uu net voice 708 752 internet 192 138 89 15 mkbaird david uunet uu net e mail mkbaird david wheaton edu mkbaird david bitnet uunet uu net voice 708 752 internet 192 138 89 15 mkbaird david uunet uu net
wil chin launchpad unc edu \( wilson chin \) subject 386 motherboard sale ! keywords 386 motherboard computer forsale cheap nntp posting host lambada oit unc edu organization university north carolina extended bulletin board service lines 25 've got 386 motherboard sale i386 processor w 2mb ram ami bios w setup math coprocessor socket 8 expansion slots full sized motherboard fits full sized case manuals included make offer ! reason sale 've got new hp workstation play \) also peripherals \( vga card , teac disk drives , printer , etc \) available e mail info opinions expressed necessarily university north carolina chapel hill , campus office information technology , experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu 152 2 22 80
quads uchicago edu \( jonny \( \) \) subject panasonic dot matrix printer 165 complete reply midway uchicago edu organization university chicago computing organizations distribution usa lines 41 would like sell dot matrix printer upgrade inkjet panasonic kx 24 pin multi mode printer stats \( memory manual \) dot printing hi res graphics , etc fast \( 192 cps \) printing printer controlled \( opposed windows driver controlled \) printing bidirectional printing faster processing speed 5 fonts \( courier , prestige , bold ps , script , sans \) epson lq 2500 ibm proprinter printer emulation accept single sheets , envelopes , 3 non carbon copies friction feed front bottom paper feed buffer send sample document printed gif jpeg file anyone wishes send sase purchase \( prepaid , please ! \) , include following accessories manual cable \( centronics \) remaining stack tractor fed paper \( 4 \) free copy windows printer driver \( unless illegal , included windows \) free unregistered dos shareware program \( 2 registration , think \) apparently offers word processing capabilities dos last two disk \( either size \) asking around 165 , open \( reasonable \) offers college student , cannot afford buy new printer without getting considerable portion money printer price includes items , shipping \( probably ups \) included well original box , one original styrofoam end pieces use towel end \( get free towel ! ! \) worked fine getting whole might fit original box figure offers come email questions offers jon midway uchicago edu ellis uchicago edu
ultb isc rit edu \( c l \) subject turbografx 16 system sale distribution na organization rochester institute technology lines 24 nntp posting host ultb gw isc rit edu sale nec turbografx 16 video game system package includes base unit power supply , tv , controller , games keith courage alpha zones one extra controller let 's hook many 5 controllers original packaging , manuals , etc items games tv sports football , alien crush , , current market price system approximately 130 asking price 75 system purchased january year , seen little use since interested , contact via one methods signature file ! chris , rit \( \( visit rochester , new york money 1 priority \) \) home world 's largest usenet ultb rit edu \( \( collection potholes ! genie c \) \)
jks2x holmes acc virginia edu \( jason k schechner \) subject adlib sound board sale ! organization university virginia lines 23 article bitzm 133 0 columbia dsu edu bitzm columbia dsu edu \( michael bitz \) writes adlib sound board sale includes original disks , 'll throw windows 3 1 wav sound file driver using pc speaker games , much welcomed board pc ! 70 00 includes shipping home office email bitzm columbia dsu edu considering get brand new sounds blaster \( original \) around 80 think price way high , things worth someone pay jason settle , raise family join pta , buy sensible shoes , chevrolet party 'till 're broke drag away 's ok al yankovic
chein eng auburn edu \( \) subject softwares , games \( new used \) sale nntp posting host wilbur eng auburn edu organization auburn university engineering distribution usa lines 48 following softwares sale new items \( never opened \) 1 lucid 3 , three dimensional spreadsheet pull menus , line help , 8 pages notes behind every cell dynamic detail , 3 capability , compatible lotus 1 2 3 , etc 15 including shipping \( manual , 5 25 disks \) 2 turbo pascal express 250 ready run assembly language routines make turbo pascal faster , powerful , easier use 2 5 25 disks manual 15 \( including shipping \) 3 dr halo iii much icon driven paint program 's complete page composition presentation graphics package automatic aspect ratio correction wysiwyg printing true color grey scale output partial screen prints 3 5 25 disks manual 12 \( including shipping \) 4 key form designer plus software making professional business forms 3 5 disks manual 25 plus shipping like new items \( package opened registered \) 1 ii advanced tactical fighter f 23 well f 14 , f 16 , f 18 , f 22 3 25 disks manuals 30 plus shipping obo 2 f stealth fighter 2 0 definitive simulation america 's radar elusive jet sensational sound , nine world 's hot spots cuba , north korea , kuwaiti theatre operations , central europe , north cape , libya , persian f , vietnam middle east awesome missions challenge 5 25 disks manual 35 plus shipping obo 3 grammatik iv 20 plus shipping 4 quattro pro 1 0 make offer 5 gem chart , graphics , word , publisher , v 3 0 make offer items ibm compatible systems
peter todd chan pc1o andrew cmu edu subject reduced sony cd players 4 sale organization fifth yr senior , electrical computer engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 21 nntp posting host po5 andrew cmu edu item sony es condition excellent age 1 year old price 300 includes tos link item sony cdp 770 condition excellent age 2 5 years old price 250 everything comes original packaging manuals items played audiophile system excellent shape interested , need additional information , please e mail \( pc1o andrew cmu edu \) call home thanks , jon \( 412 \) 882 6425 p yes , sale
jonathan comp lancs ac uk \( mr j j trevor \) subject genesis megadrive games sale trade organization department computing lancaster university , uk lines 23 following genesis megadrive games sale trade genesis md \( snes games \) games work us uk machines \( 50 60hz \) except stated boxed instructions warriors eternal sun death duel forever man wonder boy monster land super monaco gp 2 \( \) ill accept us uk sterling make offer ! cheers jonathan phone 44 524 address department computing ' ' fax 44 524 lancaster university e mail jonathan comp lancs ac uk lancaster , lancs , u k
marc comp lancs ac uk \( marc goldman \) subject snes genesis games sale trade organization department computing lancaster university lines 24 following genesis carts sale trade alien 3 global ball following snes carts sale trade jimmy connors tennis super play action football cross system trades fine cheers marc net , one hear scream ! email marc comp lancs ac uk marc computing lancaster ac uk
woods ulowell edu subject sale lines 22 organization university lowell th following cd 's sale cd cost 10 except otherwise indicated includes shipping handling achtung baby u2 joshua tree u2 immaculate collection madonna 12 love hurts garth brooks garth brooks red hot peppers tlc light shadows wilson used never used , still shrink wraps please email woods ulowell edu
suraj apollo cs jhu edu \( suraj \) subject 10 month old polk speakers sale organization johns hopkins university cs department distribution usa lines 17 10 month old polk system sale excellent condition 10 month old \( proof available \) polk monitor 4 6 bookshelf speakers offered sale excellent , sound great going higher model need sell speakers paid 250 pair bookshelf speakers willing consider best offer send offers e mail suraj cs jhu edu also excellent condition luxman receiver r 351 onkyo tape deck ta rw404 sale excellent condition 10 months old makes excellent system paid 950 receiver , tape deck speakers 10 months back , consider best offer piece sold seperately wanted e mail best offer suraj cs jhu edu suraj
auc trw com \( eddie \) subject uhc svr4 0 3 6 forsale keywords uhc , svr4 organization trw denver operations lines 21 article gator rn com larry gator rn com \( larry snyder \) writes com \( daryl v \) writes considering conversation uhc net , would n't say 1k good deal considering package inflated price start larry snyder larry gator rn com problems uhc \? using os 2 years problems eddie , auc trw com nothing either good trw denver operations bad , thinking makes aurora , co shakespeare voice 303 360 4001 fax 303 360
stephen access digex com \( stephen \) subject sls linux sale disk tape organization taylor software , columbia , md usa lines 41 nntp posting host access digex net keywords linux sls since free time looking job thought would offer linux disk tape need note offering service experienced users require support simply put disk think need support highly recommend linux system \( sls \) directly provide excellent product decent price support lazy mans service , n't want spend 4 hours modem 2 hours shuffling floppies n't need sls support opt go alone get disk 1 50 \( 5 25 \) 1 75 \( 3 5 \) \( 14 disk minimum \) minimal system 4 disks 6 00 7 00 b base system extras 7 disks 10 50 12 25 c compilers 3 disks 4 50 5 25 documentation 2 disks 3 00 3 50 source , misc 1 disk 1 50 1 75 tex 3 disks 4 50 5 25 x x windows 8 disks 12 00 14 00 entire set 5 discount 40 00 46 50 entire set qc 40 tape 40 00 send check money order stephen terrace columbia , md send e mail ready sooner stephen access digex com
colinm max carleton ca \( colin mcfadyen \) subject maxtor 2190 info needed \( unix pc software sale \) organization carleton university lines 14 crl crl com bob nntp crl com \( bob ames \) writes list items 3b1 selling list deleted pps hard drives \( exactly maxtor 2190 , faster \) anyone know jumpers set maxtor 2190 \? \? 2190 came vs2000 would like use pc thanks advance colin
forsythe leland stanford edu \( david michael \) subject sale mac classic stylewriter 1 organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa lines 6 selling macintosh classic stylewriter 1 highest bidder reach 415 626 \( san francisco \) \) , via email forsythe leland stanford edu david
rebecca rpi edu \( ezra b hall \) subject test instruments sale keywords test , instruments , meter , power , supply , oscilloscope , storage display article rpi lines 24 nntp posting host rebecca rpi edu following longer sale , sold type 611 storage display \( screen dim 6 5 x8 5 \) base three pulse generators adj dc power supply 0 0 1 5 amps keithley instruments \( 3 \) 3 1 2 digit mount still sale , hewlett packard oscilloscope four channel 50 mhz vertical amplifier time base delay generator best offer 300 \( 1 \) 4 1 2 digit mount voltmeter , powered 5 vdc , model , dimensions , 55 shipping reasonable offers accepted please respond e mail phone e mail rpi edu phone \( 518 \) 276
rebecca rpi edu \( ezra b hall \) subject receiver c 101 equilizer sale keywords receiver , equilizer , , amp article rpi lines 26 nntp posting host rebecca rpi edu sold receiver equilizer still sale technics sa 450 integrated quartz synthesizer digital receiver sold ! ! ! ! ! audio control c 101 graphic equilizer awesome eq , broke 10 bands channel , octave eq filter rumble tape monitor amazing real time spectrum analyzer microphone pink noise generator , calibrated range adjustment , display calibrated db display average energy per band , average full \( great checking loud system \) display action two speed settings adjust quickly display responds one best around quiet , display fascinating watch sells 400 450 stores , sell 315 obo send responses rpi edu , call \( 518 \) 276 eve
organization stanford linear accelerator center slacvm slac stanford edu subject collectors \( 1 left \) lines 13 chimney sweep number 12 \( 5 1 2 6 1 2 \) , closed edition , 3 4 line \( purchased west germany 1970 \) \( retail 270 \) sell 120 \( h extra \) picture want see first excellent shape , chips cracks \) great idea mother 's day great buy interested \? please e mail call \( 415 \) 926 wk \( 408 \) 248
cs nps navy mil \( \) subject catalog hard find pc enhancements \( repost \) organization naval postgraduate school , monterey distribution usa lines 35 andy freeman writes joe doll writes \) catalog personal computing tools engineers scien \) lists hardware cards application software packages \) pc xt ps 2 class machines focus engineering scien \) applications pcs , data acquisition control , \) design automation , data analysis presentation \) would like free copy , reply \( u postal \) \) mailing address interested catalog , e mail bounces n't bother never comes 's cheap trick building mailing list sell junk mail flow indication copy catalog front write tons stuff impression try send appears buyer engineer want waste catalog get catalog 's vip code give ensure continued subscription anyway , want get touch , company personal computing tools 550 division street campbell , ca \( 408 \) 378 \( also fax 's toll free 's ordering tech support \) please note associated way fact , never ordered ca n't comment products service catalog real sitting
inel gov \( jeff later \) subject ive motorola handheld radio peanuts ! distribution na organization winco lines 36 heavy duty , commercial , tiny , \( 2 inch \) waterproof , vhf 2 watt , 2 channel , handheld two way radio motorola expo purchased new amateur frequencies 146 10 70 146 34 94 absolute n condition ! never scratched , dropped , opened , otherwise ! business band pl slot original price motorola expo vhf ht 1200 00 \( comes portable charger , antenna , manual , new ni cad pack , back housing belt clip \) motorola extra new ni cad pack 40 00 motorola extra vhf rubber antenna 12 50 motorola desktop quick charger 135 00 motorola external speaker mic 125 00 motorola 12v lighter battery 80 00 motorola heavy duty nylon holster 25 00 motorola expo technical manuals 5 00 motorola expo tuning case opening tools n c 50 would like 400 , best offer ! ! ! thanks lot ! jeff jeff b later pmafire inel gov become disclaimer , disclaimer , 's lawyer ! comfortably numb pink floyd
aboyko dixie com \( andrew boyko \) subject sega genesis sale w sonic 1 2 organization dixie communications public access mouth south lines 15 aboyko dixie com \( andrew boyko \) writes 4 month old sega genesis , barely used , one controller , original box , 1 2 130 gets whole bundle shipped turns 're addictive 're anyway , mail 're interested marvel modern technology well , 've informed price whole thing i'm selling less price i'm selling teach wait long getting rid electronic equipment nevermind , everyone , i'm keeping thing andrew boyko aboyko dixie com
eos ncsu edu \( kenneth lee wright \) subject case , mfm , game card , sound card originator eos ncsu edu reply eos ncsu edu \( kenneth lee wright \) organization north carolina state university , project eos lines 29 forsale 1 desktop case , 200 watt power supply 2 internal 5 1 4 bays 2 external 5 1 4 dell system 200 case looks real good hardware included would like 80 shipping best offer 1 western digital mfm controler , 16 bit 2 floppy 2 hard , never problem would like 30 shipping best offer 1 game card , works well nothing fancy joystick port would like 10 shipping best offer 1 innovation game sound card , one game port adlib port never used \( got soundblaster installed \) would like 5 shipping offers considered , buyer pays shipping please eos ncsu edu \( 919 \) 834 thanks ken
ralf iqsc com \( ralf \) subject monitor sale organization iq software corp lines 5 sale svga monitor 1024x768 non interlaced 14 screen , still warranty ! 295 00 best offer !
ralf iqsc com \( ralf \) subject used stuff organization iq software corp lines 22 used equipment sale , everything negotiable ! 1200 baud compuadd internal modem , docs software 25 00 sco unix v3 2 2 disks docs \( uucp utils \) 150 00 old 1 2mb floppy drive , functional , old 286 20 00 dead 80mb rll drive , n't know whats wrong 20 00 old joystick , n't remember brand name 10 00 old boat anchor cga monitor full length cga card 20 00 serial card 25 pin 10 00 test drive iii accolade 20 00 prices neg shipping !
nasa suns chinalake navy mil \( chris adam thomas \) subject 1964 ford galaxy original owner miles california car organization research lines 12 i'm posting mom dad 's neighbor please contact directly sale 1964 ford galaxy 500 , 4 door , 390 cid engine , automatic , lt blue miles \( yes correct 2nd car \) original owner alway garaged california inland valley car rust paint good original interior good professionally maintained everything good shape except gas gauge n't work original except 3rd brake light added \( 4000 call \( 916 \) 451
akita com \( dan \) subject ps 2 stuff organization seattle public access news mail lines 30 misc p2 2 stuff ! cards \( micro channel \) \( 6 \) arcnet , coax , net cards \( 3 \) serial adapter p n \( 2 \) parallel adapters p n \( 2 \) coprocessor \? \? p n \( 2 \) memory expansion option p n expanded memory adapter w 2mb p n expanded memory adapter , 0k , p n alloy mca tape adapter drives \( hard floppy \) 30 mb hdd , p n model wd 60 mb hdd , p n , model wd 1 44 fdd , p n , ec 1 44 fdd , p n , ec aquired past years ps 2 components posted part 's , questions component , call ibm find ! \( idea ! ! ! \) make offer ! trades welcome ! dan \( 206 \) 453 voice \( 206 \) 996 pager seattle public access usenet news mail 1 206 747 news akita com
cthulhu mosquito cis ufl edu \( mark \) subject comics sale organization univ florida cis dept lines 59 nntp posting host mosquito cis ufl edu want get rid alot comics selling 30 overstreet price guide comic condition 1 batman 's detective comics 480 vf nm contest champions 1 contest champions 2 contest champions 3 1 daredevil 181 \( elektra dies \) nm daredevil 186 fantastic four 52 \( 1st app black panther \) f vf g joe 1 hercules 1 incredible hulk 181 \( 1st app wolverine \) vf krypton chronicles 1 man thing 1 man thing 5 marvel age 1 vf marvel age 2 nm marvel dc present \( x men new teen titans \) marvel graphic novel 4 \( 1st app new mutants \) marvel guide collecting comics nm marvel team 1 vf nm marvel team 95 master kung fu 90 1 king size annual 1 new mutants 1 \( 5 copies ! \) new mutants 2 new mutants 3 omega men 1 red 1 's believe true war 1 vf rom 1 rom 8 secret society super 1 nm peter parker , spectacular spiderman 44 amazing spiderman 188 star trek 4 super classics 1 \( origin \) new teen titans 1 uncanny tales 33 \( publisher 's file copy \) nm vision scarlet witch 1 3 \( avengers never \) nm wolverine 1 \( limited series \) wolverine 2 \( limited series \) wolverine 3 \( limited series \) wolverine 4 \( limited series \) x men 25 f x men 26 f x men 30 f x men 34 f
02106 ravel udel edu \( samuel ross \) subject books sale ! ! nntp posting host ravel udel edu organization university delaware distribution usa lines 28 someone please buy books ! ! ! ! ! asking much ! ! ! ! ! ! make offer probably take ! ! ! ! ! calculus w analytic geometry authur b simon \( copyright date 1982 \) , avg condition still readable ! writing good software fortran , graham smith holt handbook kirszner mandell \( copyright 1986 \) 720 page writing guide algebra , problem solving approach , 3rd edition w good condition general chemistry principles modern applications , r petrucci , fourth edition big book ! good condition ! solutions manual chemistry book paperback study guide chemistry book paperback send offers via email 02106 chopin udel edu sam 02106 chopin udel edu
com \( robert \) subject tektronix equipment color terminal , printer , rasterizer supplies summary tektronix equipment supplies sale keywords color , printer , terminal , rasterizer , tektronix organization atmospheric environmental research , inc lines 27 sale tektronix 4208 color terminal tektronix rasterizer tektronix inkjet printer tektronix printer extras \( tektronix products \) paper \( 3 boxes \) transparencies \( 2 boxes \) maintenance cartridges \( 2 cart \) ink cartridge \( 1 cart \) would like sell single lot , preference given offers entire list offers accepted , best offer gets equipment bob robert \( bob \) email com atmospheric environmental research inc voice \( 617 \) 547 840 memorial drive fax \( 617 \) 661 cambridge 02139 usa
dietrijj mentor cc purdue edu \( dietrijj \) subject deal ! ! organization purdue university computing center lines 36 boy oh boy , got deal ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! sound decided sell package deal , \( unless someone really wants something seperate , i'm open well \) kramer striker electric guitar dark metallic blue floyd rose tuning nut great action , around great guitar ! ! plus professional modular effects pedal board , chorus , graphic equilizer unique bonus buy seperate pedal boxes sort slide 4 existing slots mono input , stereo output perfect electric acoustic ! ! ! plus dod american metal distortion pedal durable , great sounding pedal goes great pedal board ! ! ! everything need great sound ! ! ! package deal 300 b ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! respond email dietrijj mentor cc purdue edu phone \( 317 \) 495 ask jason thanks advance ! ! ! jason dietrich
lmsc5 lmsc lockheed com subject porsche 928 \( bay area \) organization lockheed missiles space company , inc lines 20 posting friend sunnyvale , california 1982 porsche 928 gts package leather interior european handling package sunroof cruise control 88 , miles new paint immaculate every way delivery possible destination deposit 10 , 000 firm low book 11 , 500 high book 16 , 000 phone \( 408 \) 296 4444 frank new vehicle 74 , 000 posting reflect opinions employer
cbnewsm cb att com \( scott g crawford \) subject selling riding lawn mower organization distribution nj summary riding lawn mower sale lines 26 1987 riding lawn mower mower perfect condition contains following features electric start 26 inch cut double rear new battery new engine \( one year old \) inflatable tires \( gives nice ride \) seat \( gives nice ride \) moving house small area grass cut require large mower engine replaced , rebuilt , last year due faulty work done lawn mower repair shop price 600 00 phone 908 582 \( leave message \)
iastate edu \( alex \) subject sale cheap logic boards ! ! ! \( update \) organization iowa state university , ames ia lines 67 's updated list stuff still sale also , feel free make offer i'm asking 15 per board currently known electronic mother boards old arcade games game name condition manufacturer 1 fight \? fight bad \( internal short \) kangaroo \? sun electronics \? 2 mr okay , interference \? guardian tip top \? sega bank panic \? sega \? sega radar scope okay nintendo \? 3 poseidon \? bad \( needs capacitor crystal \) \? rack \? double dribble \? 6 okay \? super trivia bad \( got fried \) greyhound electronics 9 error message century ii corp 10 music trivia \? samurai fore char poseidon okay 11 ant eater \? electronics n buzzing sound \? bad pro wrestling okay video trivia \? belt \? sega unknown boards sega \( 1 \) \( 1 \) pacific novelty manufacturing inc \( 9 \) \( anyone rom numbers boards , please tell \) 1 absolutely unknown board misc stuff \( similar audio reg \) \? ram card \? midway midway patter board z 80 sync controller 285 \( 2 \) pacman filters \( 16 \) \? midway 50pin scsi cable \( 2 \) \( ends female \) alex proud owner 76 \) another iastate edu believer amiga rules
idbsu edu \( mike \) subject tires sale summary last one test lines 6 nntp posting host 132 178 16 65 organization bsu set four 235 60 big tires 1988 thunder bird bought car would give anything taken drove 2 , 000 miles 40 , 000 mile tires sporty looking low profile , take corners realy well interested please contact \( 208 \) 384 idbsu idbsu edu idaho usa
magnus acs ohio state edu \( robert walker \) subject memory keywords memory , simms , hard drive nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university distribution oh lines 11 howdy ! i'm posting friend n't reply ! friend simms sale , 8mb 250 4mb 125 also conner 170mb hard drive 250 runs name john reached bbs called classified connection \( 614 \) 575 , sysop , call hear awesome voice \( 614 \) 577 r , , b , k
djserian flash lakeheadu ca \( reincarnation elvis \) subject sale jazz recordings keywords music , jazz , sale , help starving student lines 69 sale jazz compact discs following cds sale , mint condition fairly hard find savoy label put \( bought rights savoy released disks \) would like sell one package deal consider individual orders titles artists blues milt jackson , kenny clarke , heath frank morgan , frank , walter jazz concert west coast boys opus de jazz vol 2 john rae , steve , bobby , jake , john patterns jazz cecil payne , kenny , duke jordan , tommy potter , art taylor garner paul lester young lester young , count great britain 's marian , george howard milt jackson self titled love jazz piano hampton , john , nichols , paul smith art pepper sonny reid self titled opus de blues frank , thad jones , curtis fuller charlie , hank jones , eddie jones , gus johnson jazz busting many names list opus swing frank , kenny freddie green , eddie jones , kenny clarke jackson 's ville milt jackson , lucky thompson , hank jones wendell marshall , kenny clarke take reasonable offer package 15 discs well offers individual discs please e mail response call \( 807 \) 344 thanx derek derek j p e mail djserian flash lakeheadu ca 'o o' sociologist 's 106 miles chicago , 've got full tank \( \) lakehead university gas , half pack cigarettes , 's dark , u thunder bay , ontario 're wearing sunglasses elwood blues
organization university maine system maine maine edu subject ega vga monitor card wanted lines 9 says subject , looking decent ega vga monitor card combo working condition thing must 8 bit card e mail offers maine maine edu thanks
leland stanford edu \( dale buford thompson \) subject net etiquette advertise company 's junk mail list \? organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa distribution usa expires april 30 , 1993 lines 102 article tsoft net write stuff deleted company maintains 20 , 000 mailing list regularly rented one time use major software companies method using seed junk mail , n't really effective bulk mailers regulary either send databases cleaned , 've moved recently , revert back original xxx cool , large mailings , likely dupe , 'll pick first , use others future mailings btw , list currently one lists actual buyers ms windows utility product 100 range , available direct media ct , 0 10 per name please let direct mail ! ! ! ! ! ! marketing rep know thanks ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ted impression net etiquette allow companies use net directly advertise products addition improper etiquette , product mailing list used generating junk mail correct assuming improper , , done improper use \? dale thompson
bereson ide com \( alex bereson \) subject 1972 montreal olympics originator bereson organization interactive development environments , sf distribution na lines 14 1976 montreal olympics 1 color illustrated booklet french english containing stamps issued games \( mint never \) , 6 00 face value stamps 13 00 2 00 insured first class mailing 2 unusual desk pad holder olympic rings cover montreal stadium inside canadian olympic stamps displayed cover heavy plastic , 6 00 face value 11 00 2 50 insured first class mailing order 22 including insured delivery
beers cs buffalo edu \( andrew beers \) subject cpm c64 stuff forsale distribution usa organization state university new york buffalo comp sci lines 23 nntp posting host cs buffalo edu forsale cpm computers 1 model rev , without 2 720k 5 1 4 floppy drives system disks z80 processor 2 unknown brand w miniscribe model 1006 hard drive 1 2 height 8 model 810 floppy drive keyboard system disks also 2 8 model 801 floppy drives also commodore 64 computer , 1541 disk drive sell whole parts buyer pays shipping make offers , either email beers cs buffalo edu call \( 716 \) 741 , ask jonathan andrew
mmm cup portal com \( mark robert thorson \) subject realistic pro 34 hand held scanner organization portal system \( tm \) lines 11 'd offer 150 scanner , shipping expense , payment sent personal check within 24 hours receipt goods live nearby deliver , payment cash 24 hour advance notice go bank sent mail , reserve right return expense check find defective way btw , would sell fine scanner \? replace instrument find satisfactory way \? mark thorson
enterprise bih harvard edu \( jason \) subject 2 pc 's , chair typewriter boston organization center clinical computing boston , lines 27 distribution world nntp posting host bih harvard edu 1 ibm ps 2 286 30 meg hd 1 44 disk drive 3 5 extended keyboard mouse , mouse pad dos , , excel , , word , amipro , gre 500 b 2 zenith date systems laptop computer w 120v ac model 150 308 60 hz dos 4 0 2 disc drives 3 5 floppy carrying case , manuals 350 b 3 2 leather desk chairs \( 1 \) black 200 \( 2 \) brown 150 300 4 olivetti manual typewriter , model characters typing italian language 100 please reply via email call home number \( 617 \) 277 thanks , jason jason enterprise bih harvard edu center clinical computing boston , \( 617 \) 732
jack previdi p00020 psilink com subject printing reply agate berkeley edu nntp posting host 127 0 0 1 organization institute x mailer psilink dos \( 3 4 \) lines 38 date 15 apr 1993 16 32 05 gmt garnet berkeley edu article 1993apr15 sarah albany edu me9574 albnyvms bitnet writes advertises printing business oh , dear let first block violated one major usenet groups unable type first 'h' word \? \) 're supposed use newsgroup plug commercial enterprise \( kind people frequently get flamed announcing 've got new book \) n't know whether official usenet rule long standing custom , n't make much difference practical point view matter fact j , make difference almost half million new users joined internet last year , many commercial businesses ban commercial use internet one breeding post commercial material account provided ones employer school , unless provider account gives permission \( ha ! \) us pay internet access constrained innate good taste administrator guide \( \? \) us jack previdi veni , vidi , ! p00020 psilink com
subject help ! ! get refund visual images \? koutd hirama hiram edu \( douglas kou \) organization hiram college nntp posting host hirama hiram edu lines 28 participated promotion company called visual images sent award certificate three months ago asked buy promotion package order receive major award address receive package one month ago mad angry took long get package wrote letter requested refund never return letter lucky enough find telephone number operator received package immediately returned package wrote another letter ask refund package returned address put package incorrect attempted call changed telephone number took least 10 phone calls find new number , refused take responsibility spoke manager said would call back , call yet able get address front desk go ahead send package \? waite call back \? know several people net experience company would like know got money back similar experience , please advise thanks advance , douglas kou hiram college
cst blueoak berkeley edu \( courtney terry \) subject sale 1969 ghia organization university california , berkeley lines 25 distribution ba nntp posting host blueoak berkeley edu 1969 ghia car excellent running condition 49 , 000 mi new engine new tires \( aug 92 \) new clutch \( 91 \) new carb \( 91 \) original radio \( fm \) great shape exterior black interior car well maintained regular tune ups unfortunately , car 's previous owner minor front end collision right front nose dented patched hard find part needed repair damage besides damage , car excellent condition 1600 bo courtney email cst blueoak berkeley edu phone \( 5 weekdays \) 510 704
cst blueoak berkeley edu \( courtney terry \) subject sale 1983 nissan sentra organization university california , berkeley lines 15 distribution ba nntp posting host blueoak berkeley edu 1983 nissan sentra two door hatchback red fm cassette lots new parts , well maintained clean , inside looks runs great 2000 bo bob tracy 510 540 \( please respond account \)
su \( \) subject horse breeding reply su organization ltd lines 31 \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? dear , \? \? \? \? private agricultural firm , breeding \? \? horses class , mainly , \? \? horses 17 heads , \? \? , 1 2 years old , sport live stock \? \? horses class \( passing route obstacles \) \? \? firm warm stable made brick , arranged place 60 horses \? \? possibility expand field activity \? \? systematically prepare horses class sale hard \? \? currency experienced staff firm \( class \? \? master \) breeding training horses additional \? \? investments necessary purchase larger dam live stock , \? \? construction riding house training , extra \? \? two years firm organizing hunting tourism \? \? territory national park far moscow \( 100 km \) \? \? also concerned development trading connections \? \? delivering food products , clothes , foot wear etc russia \? \? \? \? address \? \? russia , , \? \? pr , 34 130 \? \? phone \( \) 3 49 42 , \? \? \( \) 3 42 30 \? \? fax \( 095 \) 255 22 25 \? \? electronic mail \? \? su \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \?
pacbell com \( ahmadi \) subject san mateo duplex house sale organization pacific bell distribution ba lines 38 san mateo duplex houses sale west side location , alameda hwy 92 large lot nice quiet location , front neighbor , space pool rooms , cozy living room minutes highways 280 92 101 excellent schools , shopping transportation nearby unit one remodeled 2100 sq foot 3 bedrooms 2 baths large master suite den study eat kitchen large backyard fenced backyard floor wall wall carpet tile vinyl 2 car garage car port washer dryer hook living room combo totally remodeled unit two brand new construction 645 sq foot 1 bedroom 1 bath fire place room private yard private entry detached unit washer dryer living room barbeque patio utilities city price 468 , 500 \( owner \) call medi 510 601 1525 510 823 days 2 baths
subject wanted restaurant equipment edu \( \) organization concurrent engineering research center nntp posting host cathedral edu lines 17 wanted restaurant equipment starting new restaurant 1 \) 4 6 burner stove 2 \) hot plate 3 \) 4 \) stainless steel tables , shelves etc 5 \) pots n number items interested , pl email , associate concurrent engineering research member technical staff center , west virginia university
galaxy nsc com \( james lu \) subject wanted refrigerator nntp posting host nsc com organization national semiconductor , santa clara distribution ba lines 9 wanted refrigerator contact \( 408 \) 721 3702 galaxy nsc com
gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) subject smith corona typewriter sale , model scm 70 electric nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) organization phds hall distribution ny , nj lines 23 smith corona typewriter sale , model scm 70 electric great forms , envelopes , labels , small things , etc ca n't microcomputer built like tank , big heavy classic compact electric , padded storage bag scratches , paint chips dents cloth ribbon , 2 colours accept best offer near 70 \( selling friend , instructions mine rsvp account , though make offers anyways , 'll pass along single sheet feeder macintosh imagewriter ii would acceptable trade , example \) gld je souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go ! ! ! gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
subject tapes 4 sale \( sale \) koutd hirama hiram edu \( douglas kou \) organization hiram college nntp posting host hirama hiram edu lines 30 tapes sale , 3 00 shipping included tapes 1 year old hardly used , problem really want sell , make package offer wish eagles best eagles eagles hotel california john sleeping past light james power great music kenny g duo tones lethal weapon 3 \( music motion picture \) carey mtv unplugged ep michael bolton time , love tenderness phantom opera genesis ca n't dance phil collins seriously queen works queen live magic wilson phillips send offer please send offer koutd hirama hiram edu thanks , douglas kou hiram college hiram , ohio
sdf lonestar org \( bill \) subject genie garage door remote forsale organization sdf public access unix dallas , tx lines 11 genie garage door transmitter forsale , unit three button station operate three different door gate never used , goes 45 00 im ask 20 00 shipping interested please email sdf lonestar org
me9574 albnyvms bitnet subject apology \( printing \) reply me9574 albnyvms bitnet organization university albany , suny lines 14 dear fellow usenet users would like give formal apology posting advertisement printing business intend advertisement , rather offer people usenet , many use printing regular basis aware legal usenet trying put college requested information , write privately fun flooding mailbox , think grow offer advice one thing , use profanity toward another thank , marc me9574 albnyvms bitnet
starbase spd louisville edu \( joseph muller \) subject jfk autograph sale \( serious inquiries \) nntp posting host starbase spd louisville edu organization university louisville lines 12 hearing house story paul harvey never idea much worth autograph senate pass card signed kennedy ' n't remember signed john whether dated , n't looked quite currently safety deposit box would rather sell private collector rather go auction house christy 's since would tend take away profit \( collector may know \) interest please send e mail expressing interest see make scanned gif available prospective buyers
kepler unh edu \( dennis w \) subject 2400 baud external modem 25 \( mint \) organization university new hampshire durham , nh lines 3 distribution usa nntp posting host kepler unh edu box , manual , 25 shipping dennis
steveg bach udel edu \( steven n \) subject dbase iv sale \( price reduced ! \) nntp posting host bach udel edu organization university delaware distribution usa lines 4 dbase iv 1 5 sale , 3 5 inch disks , registration included \( upgrade 2 0 want \) , manuals still shrinkwrapped , disks opened verify work asking 175 best offer
cyberden sf ca us subject sale ems freq shifter reply cyberden sf ca us organization creations lines 20 yet friend ems freq shifter \( machine made 3 swirling guitar effects way back 70 's \) harmonic shifting rare collectors item last unit ems ever made rack mono , signals seperate pan sine voltage outs vco input control interested contact kevin 9 pm pst \( california \) 818 362 make offer reply account nice day h e b e r e n cyberden sf ca us cyberden public access waffle usenet system 415 472
dwilson csugrad cs vt edu \( david wilson \) subject various computer audio video items wanted 4 16 lines 63 organization virginia tech computer science dept , blacksburg , va lines 63 unless otherwise noted , mainly interested used items \( \) following sale , please contact email mbeck vtssi vt edu phone \( 703 \) 552 4381 usmail michael beck 1200 progress street 5500e blacksburg , virginia 24060 please give much info possible \( brand , age , condition , etc \) wanted , 4 16 93 computer equip 1 cheap tape drive pretty much kind \( used \) 1 memory ps 2 model \( new used \) 1 macintosh computer 1 486 66mhz chip \( new used \) 1 colorado tape drive , 250 megabyte , w 5 tapes \( used \) 1 101 key keyboard 1 high density \( 1 2 mb \) 5 1 4 disk drive 1 printer hp laser hp deskjet series 1 printer 24 pin deskjet 1 high density \( 1 2 mb \) 5 1 4 disk drive external 1 adaptec 1542 scsi 16 bit hd fd controller \( used \) 1 piggy back memory expansion intel 386 1 130 mb ide hard drive 2 17 monitor , 1280 resolution , 28 dot pitch better , digital mult xt 's , 's laptop systems go russia non computer equip 1 drum set mult amps band 1 tv 27 bigger , stereo 1 vcr 4 heads , stereo 1 receiver 100 watts w dolby surround sound capability 1 bed full queen sized local offers , please 1 desk local offers , please due shipping constraints
dwilson csugrad cs vt edu \( david wilson \) subject video camera , amiga 3000 sale 4 16 lines 46 organization virginia tech computer science dept , blacksburg , va lines 46 interested \( \) following , please contact email mbeck vtssi vt edu phone \( 703 \) 552 4381 usmail michael beck 1200 progress street 5500e blacksburg , virginia 24060 sale 4 16 93 1 panasonic af x8 ccd camcorder vhs hq high speed shutter flying erase head ca 3 years old , used lightly date time stamp counter memory rec review fade back light auto manual focus built microphone jack external microphone comes sturdy aluminum carrying case \( 20 long x 13 wide x 6 high \) shoulder strap power adaptor battery charger battery pack remote recording controller uhf vhf cable adaptor audio video cables adaptor dimensions \( measured around features \) 15 long x 4 wide x 8 high \( w handle \) asking price best offer \( 700 new price \) 1 amiga 25mhz , unix compatible machine w 100 meg hard drive , 4 meg ram , monitor , keyboard \( esc keys broken \) asking price 1500 obo mult token ring cards sold ! ! portable cellular phone , model 3730 asking price sold 350 \( listed 600 new \) sold ! ! compaq lte 286 laptop contact details best offer far sold 475
mmm cup portal com \( mark robert thorson \) subject cellular phone \( portable \) sale organization portal system \( tm \) distribution usa lines 7 offer 100 , shipment seller 's expense , payment personal check sent u mail within 24 hours receiving goods reserve right return goods , expense , find defective otherwise unacceptable receive \( either merchandise check would mailed within 24 hours \) mark thorson
mindlink bc ca \( \) subject organization mind link ! british columbia , canada lines 10 deal jay hayes ripped deal guy know go door bat ! lives post full address later well phone number case e else wants call leave nasty messages return email return phone calls left message roomate call collect man enough still maintains net , somehow get turkey net da
tammy uclink berkeley edu \( tammy chen \) subject mpc encyclopedia cd rom organization university california , berkeley lines 14 nntp posting host uclink berkeley edu following program cd rom forsale mpc encyclopedia cd rom multimedia brand new shrink wrapped asking 50 obo send reply sam ocf berkeley edu thank
jrwaters eos ncsu edu \( jack rogers waters \) subject portable color television sale organization north carolina state university , project eos lines 17 hello everyone , casio tv 470 lcd color television sale mint condition retail 199 i'm looking get 1 2 , tops highest bidder week gets , assuming highest bidder least 60 tv comes black case uses 4 aa batteries also sell ac adaptor external jack phones external antenna , etc picture good electronic tuning n't screw tuning picture , etc box documentation seen less 3 hours use sworn tv best regards jack waters ii
uxa cso uiuc edu \( \) subject quantum scsi 40mb hard drive sale organization university illinois urbana lines 30 hi , quantum prodrive lps 40 mb scsi hard drive sale came replaced larger hard drive great working condition fast quiet never problem asking 100 cod shipping reasonable offer also sale drive brand new mounting bracket also includes scsi data power cable 10 hd please reply email call \( 217 \) 337 leave message thanks ding kai chen uxa cso uiuc edu uiuc classifieds uiuc classifieds computer misc forsale misc forsale computer misc forsale computer mac misc forsale computer misc forsale computer pc clone
acuson com \( \) subject sale airline ticket 48 states canada summary airline ticket 48 states keywords sale ticket airline travel organization acuson mountain view , california distribution misc lines 14 sale northwest airline fly write ticket travel within 48 states canada anywhere country 2 one way 200 \( \) 1 round trip 350 ticket restrictions , fully transferable however , travel completed buy june 4 email acuson com
ho eng ohio state edu \( francis ho \) subject 24 pin printer nntp posting host eng ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 9 toshiba track friction feeds lcd display 3 5 months old like new sample print sheet \( geoworks \) available \( 2 month old program makes print look like inkjet print \) 175 firm
ho eng ohio state edu \( francis ho \) subject 286 laptop nntp posting host eng ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 18 laptop \( mp \) 286 12 \( 12 , 8 , 6 mhz \) 2m ram installed backlit cga \( ext cga , mga \) 20m 3 5 hh hdd 1 44m 3 5 fdd 2 com 1 lpt ports complete manual set built like tank excellent cosmetic dark gray used lightly problems \( 1 \) hdd stops working \( 2 \) lcd sometimes n't work \( ext mga works \) best offer
sony1 sdrc com \( rob davis \) subject drive summary honda xr dirt bike sale mint ! lines 10 sale 1987 honda xr dirt bike bought new dealer 1989 ridden 4 hours , garage kept well cared bike mint condition perfect size lady young adult price 600 firm disappointed ohio kentucky indiana inquiries preferred please work \( 513 \) 576 leave voicemail please rob davis , cincinnati ohio , new bike
bdolson casbah acns nwu edu \( brian david olson \) subject sale ibm 6 nntp posting host acns nwu edu organization northwestern university lines 11 ibm 6 typewriter campus since nice computer , really need cash , i'm putting sale offer local reseller 250 best offer plus shipping brian northwestern university economics international studies b olson nwu edu brian david olson bdolson casbah acns nwu edu bdolson cica es bdolson merle acns nwu edu bdolson cica es
orion oac uci edu \( chow \) subject \( update \) pioneer car cd reciever sale ! nntp posting host orion oac uci edu summary \( update \) pioneer car cd reciever sale ! keywords lines 15 features include detachable face , watt amplifier , infra red remote , 8 times oversampling 1 bit dac , iv \( 6am presets \) , best station memory cd changer controller , loud switch , clock original packaging , asking 450 00 \( best offer \) cd reciever nice radio , great condition , remote comes handy \( would n't think would \) , top line cd reciever interested ! send email \( orion oac uci edu \) resonable offers considered latest offer 400 00 \( including shipping \)
isc com \( dennis r o'donnell \) subject mccartney concert tickets sale organization interactive systems keywords lines 14 four tickets available paul mccartney concert alamo dome san antonio , tx may 29th ground floor seats sell four , pairs 100 e mail isc com
bmaraldo watserv1 uwaterloo ca \( commander brett maraldo \) subject akg 340 electrostatic dynamic headphones sale organization university waterloo distribution na lines 14 pair akg 340 headphones sale electrostatic headphone dynamic element bottom end electrostatic high end comfortable sound nice like new condition would like pair brett maraldo unit 36 research alien technology today bmaraldo watserv1 uwaterloo ca uunet ! clyde ! utai ! watserv1 ! bmaraldo
bmaraldo watserv1 uwaterloo ca \( commander brett maraldo \) subject ampex 456 2 recording tape sale organization university waterloo distribution na lines 19 5 full reels ampex 456 2 recording tape tape used 15 ips carefully stored reel include ampex tape band tape bulk erased knowledge history tape know available upon request toronto sells new 2 456 260 tax \( canadian \) would like reel include postage brett maraldo plexus productions ps reels long standard thickness unit 36 research alien technology today bmaraldo watserv1 uwaterloo ca uunet ! clyde ! utai ! watserv1 ! bmaraldo
galen med virginia edu \( stephen friedman \) subject wizard oz 9600 pen based organizer pc link sale organization university virginia distribution na lines 39 sale pen based electronic organizer brand new sharp wizard oz 9600 \( pc link software cable \) 15 ounces , measures 7 x4 x1 \( fits pockets \) 256k ram , available user pen touch screen input pointing drawing keyboard big enough touch type screen windows pop menus excellent scheduler alarms 3 telephone directories 3 user configurable databases full word processor formatting drawing utility list calculator clock calendar terminal dialing directory directory filing system serial port infrared port ic card slot uses 4 aaa batteries \( 3 months daily use \) manuals organizer link ii software cable exchanging data wizard pc 480 best offer 'll pay shipping steven friedman horizon institute policy solutions mail path virginia bitnet voice path \( 804 \) 295 0235
davisonj en ecn purdue edu \( john davison \) subject tcd d3 dat walkman sale summary backing someone selling another keywords digital audio tape sony tcd d3 dat walkman organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 64 recently backed purchasing almost unused sony tcd d3 dat walkman , found someone else unit personally prefer \( paying \) however , 's still heck machine price quite rugged , many people swear \( 's probably popular walkman style dat machine \) anyway , guy selling bryan davis \( netcom com \) , 's told included tcd d3 \( 2 \) rca stereo 1 8 plug cables one analog input , one analog output optical digital cable \( one lead input , one output \) copy sales receipt note purchase unit still factory warrantee ac adaptor battery charger battery paid 750 tax hope n't mind keep 60 minute tape came \( samples ! \) way , spent least 100 much , unless 's including extended warranty , advised dat machines , since costs 300 replace head wears , probably within 5 years use lot davisonj i'm going quote sale price would nice send mail ask wants , 've used tcd d3 , say certainly understand popular 've using one little , although problems recently , also point particular one using road two years truly used time \( exact dat machine around u canada record jazz butcher conspiracy recent live album \) bryan davis says know least half dozen professional musicians record labels f use model \( \) reported problem problem everyone know already one 'nuff said reason i'm getting found someone else selling unit features phono plug instead optical \( n't optical ports equipment , , reader , might \) , also tcd d3 n't \( also paying alternative \) note phono plug optical adapters available absolutely must one course , consumer decks \( sony , way \) anyway , 're interested , get touch netcom com john davison davisonj ecn purdue edu
anomaly sbs com \( rev michael p \) subject organization small business systems , incorporated , , ri lines 9 sw radio sale worked last time tried make offer md michael p sex hereditary domain mpd anomaly sbs com parents never , chances tnet 1 401 273 wo n't either telebit 1 401 455
arthur noguerola vos stratus com subject son genuine vinyl records 4sale organization stratus computer inc , marlboro lines 14 nntp posting host m21 eng stratus com thank requesting list thank purchased vinyl lotsa vinyl leftover sale vinyl looking new home please buy \( \) stop running ad bunches 12 vinyl records sale including metal ! ! ! heavy metal music \) em get amazing deal email big list details \( mass , usa \) arthur noguerola vos stratus com
ychen hubcap clemson edu \( eric chen \) subject emulator card , 's \? organization clemson university , clemson sc lines 14 someone gave brand new card thinking sell cuz n't need problem n't even know made forte communications co 2 board combined together \( looks wierd \) 2 9 pin ports \( one male one female \) , also round port \( like bnc , sure \) made 1986 , emulator diagnostic disk anyone ever seen known appreciate help advance eric
dsnyder falcon aamrl wpafb af mil subject wanted beginner distribution world organization usaf al cfh , wpafb , dayton , oh lines 31 article fnnews fnal gov , greg schuweiler schuweiler fnal gov writes would like purchase 9 year old really really want want play daddy 'll practice everyday 'll even keep room really clean well must really mean would like find used one please e mail schuweiler fnal gov greg schuweiler schuweiler fnal gov 've got used one sale used high school n't occasion get play anymore email work something ca n't get email reason david david b snyder technical services inc dsnyder falcon aamrl wpafb af mil wright patterson air force base 513 255 dayton , ohio usa said god n't subtract time earth , hours spent flying 1946 140 lady waiting owner operator opinions expressed usaf
dsnyder falcon aamrl wpafb af mil subject golf shoes size 9 1 2 organization usaf al cfh , wpafb , dayton , oh lines 15 used pair golf shoes size 9 1 2 good shape holes etc 10 00 b plus shipping david david b snyder technical services inc dsnyder falcon aamrl wpafb af mil wright patterson air force base 513 255 dayton , ohio usa said god n't subtract time earth , hours spent flying 1946 140 lady waiting owner operator opinions expressed usaf
jonathan comp lancs ac uk \( mr j j trevor \) subject snes games sale trade organization department computing lancaster university , uk lines 29 following games sale trade snes \( genesis megadrive games \) \( instructions box except stated \) sfc magical quest \( instructions \) super legend mystical ninja uk snes world another world super soccer us snes fun house skins golf super tennis \( currently offer \) sell us uk pounds cheers jonathan phone 44 524 address department computing ' ' fax 44 524 lancaster university e mail jonathan comp lancs ac uk lancaster , lancs , u k
michelle andrew cmu edu subject darkroom supplies enlarger organization athletics physical education , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 28 nntp posting host po3 andrew cmu edu sale ii enlarger \( including filters negative carriers \) darkroom supplies \( containers , trays , thermometer , , paper , etc also paper chemicals , think 2 past expiration date \) everything great working condition bought year ago served purpose well n't used months n't time money keep sitting bathroom taking space 'd like use , 'd like sell someone would use rather collect dust bathroom interested whole package , sell everything \( including shipping \) 300 something else mind , i'm open suggestions please reply account thank michelle
unix amherst edu \( kim hong cheng \) subject telepath 96 96 fax modem gateway organization amherst college lines 7 nntp posting host amhux3 amherst edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl7 gateway telepath 9600 9600 fax modem gateway computer crosstalk , winfax pro 2 01 windows never used 170 shipped \( 195 gateway \) hong
wgs1 isis msstate edu \( walter g seefeld \) subject microsoft dos 6 0 upgrade sale nntp posting host isis msstate edu organization mississippi state university lines 22 article com com \( andrew hall \) writes article unx sas com maxwell unx sas com \( joe \) writes yuanchie eve usc edu \( yuan hsu \) writes ms dos 6 0 upgrade sale best offer 45 \( opened , unregistered \) gee , copy pc magazine states upgrade 49 99 , across street , sells 47 49 i'm going way work compusa 38 xx , boston sell 33 including shipping walter g seefeld dawn 's early light , 940 n jackson st 1a know right , starkville , ms 39759 're going reap sown n5qxr jackson brown
mcadams rtp dg com \( ed mcadams \) subject piano , free charity organization data general corporation , research triangle park , nc lines 15 one heavy antique upright would like contribute charity muscle enough get house get response charity sell 100 , haul good shape , needs tuning i'm south durham county ed mcadams data general corporation mcadams dg rtp dg com 62 w alexander drive backbone ! mcnc ! rti ! dg rtp ! mcadams research triangle park , nc \( 919 \) 248 ed mcadams data general corporation mcadams dg rtp dg com 62 w alexander drive backbone ! mcnc ! rti ! dg rtp ! mcadams research triangle park , nc \( 919 \) 248
suraj apollo cs jhu edu \( suraj \) subject ! ! ! ! ! ! ! new stereo system sale ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! organization johns hopkins university cs department distribution usa lines 29 10 month old stereo system sale luxman r 351 receiver , onkyo ta rw404 tape deck , polk monitor m4 6 book shelf speakers sale receiver 5 year warranty , equipment excellent condition paid 950 system willing consider best offer sell seperate pieces also desired please send best offer suraj cs jhu edu speakers polk monitor m4 6 bookshelf speakers paid 250 pair willing consider best offer receiver luxman r 351 receiver 5 year \( yes 5 years \) warranty paid 475 willing consider best offer full remote , 2 pairs speaker connections , 60 watts per channel , drives like 150 watts per channel standard features , tape deck onkyo ta rw404 tape deck paid 275 willing consider best offer dual cassette , dolby b , c , hx pro input level control recording , auto reverse sides standard features send e mail best offer suraj cs jhu edu suraj
tlaloc sw stratus com \( michael \) subject sale 1990 pontiac grand prix se organization stratus computer , software engineering lines 45 distribution usa nntp posting host tlaloc sw stratus com sale 1990 pontiac grand prix se white , white rims , gray interior miles \( mostly highway \) , 3 8 litre v6 multi port fuel injected engine , 5 speed manual transmission options include c , rear , power steering , power brakes , power windows , power locks , power mirrors , cruise control , power glass moonroof sunshade , power seat \( driver 's \) , power seat comfort lumbar headrest \( \) , fm cassette , electronic monitor service system graphic compass , stereo controls duplicated steering wheel , remote keyless entry , others asking 11 , 500 car looks rides like rolled dealers lot garaged pampered gets average 27 5 mpg highway , sometimes better city around 19 23 mpg , depending driven selling baby coming soon need 4 door family car consider trade partial trade ford taurus , mercury sable , 4 door pontiac grand similar american car contact mike home \( 508 \) 881 work \( 508 \) 490 , tlaloc sw stratus com
steve titan tsd arlut utexas edu \( steve glicker \) subject 2 5v 200a power supplies f 350 obo nntp posting host rooster organization applied research labs , university texas austin distribution usa lines 12 two lh research 1 power supplies \( series \) , 5v , 200a \( currently wired \) control lines sense , , pwr fail , high lo margin , current monitor \( list price lh research 824 00 , qty 1 9 \) asking 350 00 pair obo steve glicker \( steve titan tsd arlut utexas edu \)
sage cc purdue edu \( brent \) subject sony forsale organization purdue university distribution usa lines 33 used sony sale bought new june 16 , 1992 still one year warranty intact specifications sony 's best car perfect condition 8x oversampling 1 bit converter 3 beam laser pickup dual color display dsp sound processing \( bass boost dds modes \) w 3 levels effect 2 way repeat hold mode also run 2 aa batteries 30 track programming w repeat random play w delete fused cigarette lighter adapter \( could save player something goes wrong headphone plug line jack sony 34 headphones ac power adapter patch cord home use automobile plate car pack remote control \( great home use \) carrying case extra fuses unit great use car moved easily vehicles works well home car need lighter outlet cassette player everything came manuals , packaging , receipts etc unit perfect condition normal well taken care use extremely versatile unit used anywhere asking 250 system extras please e mail interested brent wagner sage cc purdue edu \( 317 \) 495
aj008 cleveland freenet edu \( aaron barnes \) subject scanning radio realistic pro 2024 200 , sell 150 organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 45 nntp posting host slc10 ins cwru edu article alt radio scanner path usenet ins cwru edu ! cleveland freenet edu ! aj008 aj008 cleveland freenet edu \( aaron barnes \) newsgroups alt radio scanner subject realistic pro 2024 sale 200 , sell 150 obo date 20 apr 1993 16 01 28 gmt organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 26 message id 3du usenet ins cwru edu nntp posting host slc10 ins cwru edu hello realistic pro 2024 scanner sale small desc 60 fully detailed digital display headphone jack antenna jack removable antenna auto search coverage 30 50mhz 118 380 originally cost 200 , sell 150 thank buchanan `96 ! fear goverment fears guns without 2nd amendment , cannot guarantee ou r freedoms aj008 cleveland freenet edu buchanan `96 ! fear goverment fears guns without 2nd amendment , cannot guarantee ou r freedoms aj008 cleveland freenet edu
suraj apollo cs jhu edu \( suraj \) subject new stereo system components sale organization johns hopkins university cs department distribution usa lines 29 10 month old stereo system sale luxman r 351 receiver , onkyo ta rw404 tape deck , polk monitor m4 6 book shelf speakers sale receiver 5 year warranty , equipment excellent condition paid 950 system willing consider best offer sell seperate pieces also desired please send best offer suraj cs jhu edu speakers polk monitor m4 6 bookshelf speakers paid 250 pair willing consider best offer receiver luxman r 351 receiver 5 year \( yes 5 years \) warranty paid 475 willing consider best offer full remote , 2 pairs speaker connections , 60 watts per channel , drives like 150 watts per channel standard features , tape deck onkyo ta rw404 tape deck paid 275 willing consider best offer dual cassette , dolby b , c , hx pro input level control recording , auto reverse sides standard features send e mail best offer suraj cs jhu edu suraj
camaro uucp \( tim foley \) subject memory needed ! ! ! organization camaro lines 27 wanted amiga 1000 memory expander size \( least 1 meg \) , populated eg , , etc needed desperately ! cash deal trade 2400 everex 24e external modem 2400 pc internal modem pp bis external modem apple ii parts lots pc cards panasonic video ccd video camera \( \) w lenses \( great digi view etc ccd lens burn ! \) send email asap ! heartbeat america camaro z28 camaro uucp call camaro linux pub access site 1 416 238 usrobotics hst note please , ftpmail mailing lists host gets annoyed \)
subject amplifiers speakers uc twsu edu \( karl \) organization wichita state university , wichita , ks lines 27 sale \( course \) linear power model 952 iq 2 channel automotive stereo amplifier 95 watts peak per channel 2 ohm stable fidelity tested 100 pay shipping 1 pair \( two \( 2 \) \) mobile authority woofers 10 inch 2 inch voice coil 20 oz magnet 130 watt peak power 4 ohms 40 , pay shipping \( sell \) reply thru e mail karl r wichita state university uc twsu edu
umbc edu \( jonas \) subject olivetti xt organization university maryland , baltimore county campus lines 8 distribution world nntp posting host umbc edu x auth user selling xt compatible comes green screen cga monitor , 360k 5 25 floppy drive , 20 megabyte hard drive would think brand new condition 's asking price 150 shipping reply via e mail interested
subject vhs movie sale koutd hirama hiram edu \( douglas kou \) organization hiram college nntp posting host hirama hiram edu lines 13 vhs movie sale dance wovies \( 12 00 \) tape new open , buyer pay shipping cost interested , please send offer koutd hirama hiram edu thanks , douglas kou hiram college
martimer jaguar wpi edu \( random one \) subject vhs movie sale organization worcester polytechnic institute lines 10 nntp posting host jaguar wpi edu article 1993apr19 1 hirama hiram edu koutd hirama hiram edu \( douglas kou \) writes vhs movie sale dance wovies \( 12 00 \) hell \? \? \( \( sp \) \) \? \? , , funny things everywhere dr jonathan random martimer wpi wpi edu
jato jpl nasa gov \( joe \) subject c 64 system sale make offer organization jet propulsion laboratory distribution usa lines 24 sale complete package \( 1 \) commodore c64 computer like new box power supply owners manuals \( 2 \) commodore disk drive like new box owners manual \( 3 \) commodore color monitor like new owners manual \( 4 \) panasonic 1091 dot matrix printer like new owners manual \( 5 \) printer interface panasonic printer \( 6 \) cartridge \( 7 \) huge stack books c 64 1541 programming make reasonable offer throw 300 disks software please reply e mail joachim jato jpl nasa gov jet propulsion laboratory pasadena , california disclaimer , n't speak jpl !
lazaro cc bellcore com \( lazaro , matthew \) subject vhs movie sale nntp posting host cc bellcore com organization bellcore , livingston , nj lines 12 article bigboote wpi edu martimer jaguar wpi edu \( random one \) writes article 1993apr19 1 hirama hiram edu koutd hirama hiram edu \( douglas kou \) writes vhs movie sale dance wovies \( 12 00 \) hell \? \? \( \( sp \) \) \? \? 's one animals dance seriously , saw video sale brand new palmer video 9 tx guess could resell 12 would dance like
she3328 ritvax isc rit edu \( steven h \) subject wanted hp hp nntp posting host vaxb isc rit edu reply she3328 ritvax isc rit edu organization rochester institute technology lines 10 subject says looking hp hp please e mail replies thanks steven bitnet she3328 ritvax , internet she3328 ritvax isc rit edu uucp rutgers ! rochester ! rit ! ritvax ! she3328
jyow desire wright edu subject radar detector x , k , ka organization wright state university lines 7 spectrum 2 se x , k , ka pulse protection good condition purchased 130 , asking 80 jason yow human factors psychology program wright state university , dayton , oh e mail jyow desire wright edu
jyow desire wright edu subject camera olympus stylus , super small organization wright state university lines 9 olympus stylus , 35mm , pocket sized , red eye reduction , timer , fully automatic time date stamp , carrying case smallest camera class rated 2 consumer reports excellent condition 4 months old worth 169 95 purchased 130 selling 100 jason yow human factors psychology program wright state university , dayton , oh e mail jyow desire wright edu
mallen wyvern wyvern com \( marc l allen \) subject 486dx 33 cpu chip sale , \( cyrix , amd 486s intel clones \) organization wyvern com distribution na lines 10 beware , understand neither amd cyrix 486s clones intel 486 using name 486 run fast intel 486 exactly set fit socket fast without coprocessors amd recent appeal intel use microcode , putting real 486 chips near future marc mallen wyvern wyvern com
gtd597a prism gatech edu \( hrivnak \) subject vhs movie sale organization georgia institute technology lines 14 article bigboote wpi edu martimer jaguar wpi edu \( random one \) writes dance wovies \( 12 00 \) hell \? \? \( \( sp \) \) \? \? hell \? fix typos blame others go skins ! next question emotional music quite go braves ! effect \? mike patton , faith go hornets ! go capitals ! mike friedman \( hrivnak fan ! \) internet gtd597a prism gatech edu
jade tufts edu \( frederick baker \) subject 486dx 33 cpu chip sale , 250 organization tufts university medford , distribution na lines 8 entire dispute chip newsgroup lot posts nothing sell back certain user 's post month ago stop posting computer equipment ! ! ! save computer forsale newsgroups ! n't get computer forsale newsgroups , ask sysadmin try subscribe location otherwise , knock !
titan ucs umass edu \( l \) subject mac se forsale organization university massachusetts , amherst lines 11 distribution usa nntp posting host titan ucs umass edu repost earlier thanks several offering advise realistic prices mac se 2 5 megs ram , 20 meg hard disk , 800 k floppy absolutely perfect condition includes word 5 , pagemaker , quark , quicken latest versions dozen programs price 475 00
eng umd edu \( wang hua \) subject canon camera system sale organization project glue , university maryland , college park lines 16 distribution world nntp posting host descartes src umd edu following canon items sale , condition listed numerical 10 indicates like new condition canon body \( ae , dual system , build motor drive etc \) 9 canon fd 50mm f1 8 10 canon fd f1 8 canon bt 52 hood 8 \( excellent portrait lens \) 28 50mm f3 5 4 5 zoom \( made japan \) soft case 10 80 f4 5 macro \( 1 4 \) zoom \( japan \) hard case 10 dedicated flash box manual 10 asking 350 obo h included interested , e mail src umd edu call \( 301 \) 405
beb media mit edu \( brian e bradley \) subject 2 gig fujitsu 5 25 disk drive sale organization mit media laboratory distribution usa lines 11 2 fujitsu 5 25 disk drive internal drive , model \( uses either scsi interface disk controller card \) brand new , still box , never used 1800 \( compare 2400 cheapest mail order catalogs \) posted friend respond athena
steveg bach udel edu \( steven n \) subject hard drive sale ! nntp posting host bach udel edu organization university delaware distribution usa lines 6 posted , buyer fell , goes western digital caviar 2200 , 212 meg ide hd , 3 5 inch drive built cache \( believe 's 64k , i'm positive \) still unopened , original static bag asking 275 , obo
foxfire access digex com \( foxfire \) subject sega cd forsale organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 35 nntp posting host access digex net ok folks need money purchase video game backup unit , decided let go sega cd unit heres deal sega genesis cd rom unit sega cd games regular cd 's cd g 's \( cd 's w graphics \) comes w 5 cd 's \( pack ins \) sega 's hot hits \( regular cd w music \) rock paintings \( cd g music w graphics like \) sol \( shooter \) sherlock holmes \( mystery \) clue book , docs sega classics \( streets rage , revenge , columns , golden axe \) docs box documents \( cd unit \) included games comes w documentation unless otherwise specified games cobra command \( docs water \) road avenger 2 weeks old ! ! night trap \( docs \) games come w documentation unless otherwise specified im going sell highest bidder 4 30 93 would like start 250 00 trade genesis snes video backup unit would like bid make offer , drop mail keep everone informed current bids foxfire foxfire access digex com
david ruggiero osiris halcyon com subject bare 4mb 386 25 micronics system 450 350 reduced ! organization none fight entropy \? lines 29 distribution na reply osiris halcyon halcyon com \( david ruggiero \) nntp posting host nwfocus wa com originator osiris halcyon com bare case , power supply , motherboard \( ram coprocessor \) everything else add like motherboard us made micronics 8 slot motherboard intel 386dx 25mhz cpu 64kb sram cache 4mb ram using simms \( worth 120 alone \) cyrix math coprocessor \( worth 90 alone \) norton si 6 0 rating 26 1 latest version phoenix bios case power supply standard desktop case power supply usual connectors room five floppy hard drives \( three visible , two internal \) new micronics cpus often command several hundred dollar premium clone motherboards us made , use high quality components , known reliable compatible systems sold gateway zeos various points past \( check ads back pages byte pc magazine want see price differential \) price 450 complete , 100 less n't want need case power supply board fully guaranteed email details questions thanks ! david ruggiero \( halcyon com \) seattle , wa home moss people
zeno ccwf cc utexas edu \( hsieh \) subject video audio computer equipment sale organization university texas austin , austin tx lines 49 distribution na reply zeno ccwf cc utexas edu \( hsieh \) nntp posting host mickey cc utexas edu originator zeno mickey cc utexas edu time spring cleaning , following items sale roland mt 32 multi sound module la synthesis , upto 32 simultaneous voices , 128 preset , 20 char backlit lcd display , midi thru , reference card , stereo output , etc great games support \( music far superior sound card \) , experimenting midi , adding additional sounds midi setup 235 shipping canon rc 250 still video camera system includes camera , carrying pouch , battery pack , battery charger , ac adapter , video cables , two 2 5 floppies \( disk holds 50 pictures 100 pics total \) , manuals , etc video output standard ntsc composite sent ntsc device \( e g television direct viewing pictures , vcr record slideshow , computer video digitizer save manipulate pictures computer system \) 295 shipping video enhancer audio mixer three line stereo audio mixer microphone input master volume slider w video enhancer boost video images vcr vcr , camcorder vcr , etc 38 shipping 2400 baud pc internal modem 25 shipping quantum 105mb 3 5 internal prodrive hard disk unit recently turned unreliable erratic usage could simple easily fixed problem major problem , rate n't time find problem lies want take risk , 45 shipping interested items , please email hsieh zeno ccwf cc utexas edu
zeno ccwf cc utexas edu \( hsieh \) subject video audio computer equipment sale organization university texas austin , austin tx lines 14 distribution na nntp posting host mickey cc utexas edu 21 apr 1993 03 25 29 wrote quantum 105mb 3 5 internal prodrive hard disk unit recently turned unreliable erratic usage could simple easily fixed problem major problem , rate n't time find problem lies want take risk , 45 shipping forgot mention mentioned quantum scsi drive hsieh zeno ccwf cc utexas edu
en ecn purdue edu \( \) subject dragon 's lair ii space ace arcade games sale keywords laser games interactive organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 64 dragon 's lair ii \( 400 complete \) 220 laser disc 150 motherboard joystick buttons 35 graphics \( arcade cabinet \) 50 brick power supply 12 12 5 space ace \( 430 complete \) 250 laser disc 150 motherboard joystick buttons 35 graphics \( arcade cabinet \) 50 brick power supply 12 12 5 space ace dragon 's lair ii \( 750 \) games require sony laserdisc player nice thing player also watch normal laserdisc movies well one sell 600 , 550 purchase one complete system 500 buy systems currently run entertainment center housed pc computer case fan , power supply run audio stereo system , laserdisc runs directly v made mount joysticks buttons first person buys games get , otherwise would prefer housed normal arcade cabinet done well graphics go nicely along sides front cabinet everything works perfectly laserdisc player rs 232 port use develop multimedia type applications stored safe place scratches interested please email thanks , purdue university yes , well sort robotics blink headed pig ignorance en ecn purdue edu come expect non creative garbage john \( monty python \)
bob nntp crl com \( bob ames \) subject unix pc software sale organization crl internet dialup access \( 415 389 unix login guest \) lines 1 distribution world nntp posting host crl com
dlneal apgea army mil \( dennis l neal dlneal \) subject amiga software sale ! ! organization edgewood lines 22 nntp posting host cbda9 apgea army mil following amiga software sale gold 50 25 b e plan ! 10 spreadsheet \( still \) 10 \( hard drive backup \) certificate maker 10 add h email address listed thanx , dennis l neal dlneal cbda9 apgea army mil
dlneal apgea army mil \( dennis l neal dlneal \) subject 24 pin printer sale organization edgewood lines 10 nntp posting host cbda9 apgea army mil star micronics sg 24 , 24 pin printer sale used amiga ibm computers works great throw cable vinyl cover 150 plus shipping first email gets thanx , dennis l neal dlneal cbda9 apgea army mil \( gone laser printer reason selling \)
cislabs pitt edu \( marc rosenthal \) subject casio b sale distribution na organization university pittsburgh lines 8 casio b sf 9500 digital dairy organizer sale unit 64 kb expansion card slot good condition asking 110 00 plus shipping marc pitt edu
desire wright edu \( john c hansen \) subject borland software sale cheap ! organization wright state university lines 22 sale turbo pascal 5 5 original manuals disks 30 obo shipping borland paradox 3 5 tall boxed manual set desktop original disks 50 obo shipping borland paradox 4 0 opened never used manuals disks 125 obo shipping borland quattro pro 4 0 \( dos \) manuals disks 40 obo shipping e mail phone interested john hansen \( 513 \) 257 john c hansen hansen hq af mil working wsu bitnet suitable quote desire wright edu john hansen
thad cup portal com \( thad p floryan \) subject maxtor 2190 info needed \( unix pc software sale \) organization portal system \( tm \) lines 25 article colinm cunews colinm max carleton ca \( colin mcfadyen \) writes anyone know jumpers set maxtor 2190 \? \? 2190 came vs2000 would like use pc maxtor product specification oem manual , doc rev f , page 35 j2 , \( 20 \) j1 \( 34 \) power 4 c 3 2 c 1 option jumper drive select , shown also drive power option jumper \( elsewhere drive 's board \) odds slim since 3b1 normally one hd , would jumper c1 select first \( possible \) drive address 2190 second drive 3b1 , jumper 2c thad floryan thad btr com , thad cup portal com , thad netcom com
jks2x holmes acc virginia edu \( jason k schechner \) subject foot switches sale organization university virginia lines 11 2 foot switches sale 're great guitar amps , keyboards 1 diameter 6' \( \) cable 'd like 15 , make offer , knows jason settle , raise family join pta , buy sensible shoes , chevrolet party 'till 're broke drag away 's ok al yankovic
rich delphi bsd uchicago edu \( rich long \) subject icom sale reply rich delphi bsd uchicago edu organization university chicago computing organizations lines 35 looking sell icom ic extras following cm 12 battery hs 10 headset hs vox unit cigarette adapter leather case bc wall charger ic battery also one needs new cell \( think , \) good condition , scratch front visible leather case interested , make offer rich , nextstep \( tm \) news reader , posting n 7 9o 9c ! 9g w 7 \( ae \) g r , `i 6 \( q , c` 7' ! f1 ' u , ' q , , , \( q , s5 ' r , \( p , , w , s9 ' , c p , 4s , 9c ! 8c ! 3 ! 9s , c1 9f , p7 f , ! dd ! r ! \( uy \( e 24 , , \) ! 5 ! f0 f b` 22 ! \( '1h92 ! f vql w f , b ! \) \( , ! \( 96 \( , ! \( 9 6 ! u 6 4 ep 3 5a ae b ! 87 58 5v l ! \) 4 , 0f 5r 0d \) r ! \( ! \( \( \( e p ai \( et r ! \( det \( es \( en \( v0 8v n9 et 6 n ! , 82 ! \) h \( n \( '1h92 ! f f n ! \( es \( yo ! v 7 \( ' 6x ae \( \( 8v ep 268 6 u \( ! k 5d ! \( ue \( n \( ep 7 \) b ! `
subject items sale must sell koutd hiramb hiram edu \( douglas kou \) organization hiram college nntp posting host hiramb hiram edu lines 62 items sale package bought throught award give away company attempted cancel order received package , late company refused take package back refund know truth would never get 697 back , wish get money back close possible package 3d camera takes good picture , never used came wide angle flesh , carring case , film , instruction video four lens created 3d effect regular 35mm film jewelry came package additional gift vacation voucher voucher good two rt airfare users get special hotel rate 27 per person per night meals , ground transfer , hotel tax included las vegas , reno , orlando voucher provides one rt airfare , hotel accomodation 3 days 2 nights meals , ground transfer , hotel tax included voucher good 3 locations , ca n't travel 3 places cancun , mexico voucher provides one rt airfare , hotel accomodation 3 days 2 nights meals ground transfer , hotel tax included usual paid 697 whole package try cold blooded make offer details would provided request wish sell whole package looking vacation vouchers , n't care sell camera higher interested camera , could treat vacation vouchers gift receive letter mail box says selected part least one five awards trust , would get exactly package one award given away n't bother even call back , really interested , could get cheaper price could receive package within week \( waited three months get first final packages \) also , would ask credit card number pay interest credit card company spend could get cheaper price interested , please reply soon posible really wish get make offer , confortable offer , would send package u p next day morning details could given wish please contact koutd hirama hiram edu douglas kou hiram college e mail address koutd hirama hiram edu
subject cds sale update koutd hiramb hiram edu \( douglas kou \) organization hiram college nntp posting host hiramb hiram edu lines 31 cds sale shipping included gold freddie mercury , campbell , en vogue inxs , madonna , eric , sarah \( 9 00 \) wayne 's world queen , red hot chili peppers , alice cooper eric \( 9 00 \) extreme ii \( 9 00 \) saturday night live band live new york \( 7 00 \) harry , jr blue light sold \( open , 10 00 \) dances \( 9 00 \) sold handel classical \( 6 00 \) sold please send reply koutd hirama hiram edu package deal welcome douglas kou hiram college
teskey plains nodak edu \( dr snake \) subject os 2 2 0 extended services sale cheap article ns1 organization north dakota higher education computing network lines 27 nntp posting host plains nodak edu sale os 2 2 0 extended services extended database support extended networking support remote host support extended communication support plus ! copy os 2 2 0 es package brand new , manuals , disks , etc included es package 495 os 2 2 0 selling 79 something like 'll let go 200 needs changed thus eliminating need package bought interested , please email mark teskey teskey plains nodak edu mark w teskey internet teskey plains nodak edu uucp ! uunet ! plains ! teskey alive ! hi ! signature virus copy signature join !
02106 ravel udel edu \( samuel ross \) subject books sale ! ! ! nntp posting host ravel udel edu organization university delaware distribution usa lines 25 someone please buy books ! ! ! ! ! asking much ! ! ! ! ! ! make offer probably take ! ! ! ! ! writing good software fortran , graham smith holt handbook kirszner mandell \( copyright 1986 \) 720 page writing guide general chemistry principles modern applications , r petrucci , fourth edition big book ! good condition ! solutions manual chemistry book paperback study guide chemistry book paperback send offers via email 02106 chopin udel edu sam 02106 chopin udel edu
alin nyx cs du edu \( ailin lin \) subject 1 2mb external fd ps 2 \( extremely cheap \) organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept lines 11 subject 1 2 external fd ps 2 \( extremely cheap \) brand new 1 2 external floppy drive ps 2 , still box sell 90 shipping firm , half market price \( check page 474 computer shopper , apr 93 issue , price 179 \) please let know interested ailin 803 654 8817
alin nyx cs du edu \( ailin lin \) subject ld ext floppy drive mac \( extremely cheap \) organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept lines 10 brand new low density 5 25 floppy drive mac comes brand new apple macintosh ii pc drive card , hook drive card allows use dos formatted disks selling 90 \( 1 3 retail price \) ailin 803 654 8817 buyers pay shipping
subject unix sale mike budlanski mike budlanski canrem com reply mike budlanski mike budlanski canrem com distribution misc organization canada remote systems lines 24 unix unix unix unix unix unix unix forsale esix unix system v release 4 new ! 2 user license system 400 unlimited user license system 450 2 user license system dev kit 500 unlimited user license system dev kit 550 systems include floppies tapes manuals new never installed market value systems 1500 us ! interested , please contact 416 233 thanks , mike mike budlanski canrem com canada remote systems toronto , ontario 416 629 7000 629 7044
jac2y virginia edu \( jonathan cook jac2y \) subject ! ! ! ! jazz cd 4 sale trade ! organization university virginia lines 5 sell 10 , ca n't really offer 8 point thanks , jon
jac2y virginia edu \( jonathan cook jac2y \) subject classic cds 4 sale ! ! organization university virginia lines 7 hey , ca n't send mail , could please resend address \? lost \( h moscow \) thanks , jon
nmt edu \( dan church \) subject lots cds sale ! article nmt 1993apr19 distribution na organization new mexico tech lines 43 lot cds sale prices 7 per cd 3 per cd single cds noted \( cd \) cd singles \( cds \) please include 1 extra per cd h costs want buy lot , 'll work deal shipping costs ! type group title cds boys men philly cds c c music factory keep cds go \( remixes \) cds schizophrenia cds swing sister gonna change cds faith healer cds seal beginning cds cds c c music factory gonna make u sweat cds godhead cds ! cds b 52 's good stuff cds duran duran violence summer cds cds williams running back cd seal seal cd frequencies cd kill uncle cd change weather cd jody wanna dance \? cd dead alive fan flame cd cd adam ant manners cd fine young raw cd black box cd cole greatest remixes vol 1 cd black box mixed ! cd best rockers cd underground dance jam harder dan church quote god make tree , took man box cs mail invent dwarf tossing ! , nm email nmt edu e hobbs
peter todd chan pc1o andrew cmu edu subject klipsch forte 2 4 sale organization fifth yr senior , electrical computer engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 14 nntp posting host po3 andrew cmu edu item klipsch forte 2 speakers condition mint age 6 months old price 1000 pair \( retail 1400 pair \) speakers perfect condition used audiophile system floor standing come original literature also still warranty interested questions , please feel free e mail \( pc1o andrew cmu edu \) call home thanks , jon \( 412 \) 882 6425
kam chung cheung andrew cmu edu subject squirrel hill studio organization masters student , industrial administration , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 18 nntp posting host po3 andrew cmu edu squirrel hill studio efficiency available mid may lease 7 31 93 perfect someone looking temporary housing someone wants stay beyond july nice short walk cmu 325 month plenty parking space street quiet neighborhood nearly new carpet call 421
wgs1 isis msstate edu \( walter g seefeld \) subject syquest internal 44 drive 8 cartridges sale trade summary trade 350mb 300mb ide , sell 450 nntp posting host isis msstate edu organization mississippi state university distribution na lines 21 drive less one year old cartridges bought since excellent condition still warranty due change system use , need large , contiguous drive offer includes internal drive scsi adapter card cables original documentation software original packaging 8 cartridges 350mb \( bad sectors defects \) installation breeze 386 clone trade something near 300mb ide , sell 450 also consider trading 4 30 pin simms 70ns walter g seefeld dawn 's early light , 940 n jackson st 1a know right , starkville , ms 39759 're going reap sown n5qxr jackson brown
kohlhepp cae wisc edu \( robert kohlhepp \) subject rasterops organization u wisconsin madison college engineering distribution usa lines 14 video board sale macintosh nu bus machines deal fell asking 200 rasterops 640x480 800x600 incorrectly posted 832x624 1024x768 \( 60hz 75 hz \) 1152x870 make offers mail rj kohlhepp novell systems staff kohlhepp cae wisc edu computer aided engineering
seq uncwil edu \( david \) subject sci fi books sale ! best offer ! organization univ north carolina wilmington lines 52 would like sell following sci fi books best offer interested , please email offer sure include shipping handling prefer ship cod purchase 25 , consider han solo lost legacy han solo 's revenge han solo stars end splinter minds eye empire strikes back star wars star trek motion picture star trek wrath kahn official star trek trivia book star trek reader vol star trek reader vol ii book form star trek reader vol iii original tv series star trek reader vol iv dune dune messiah children dune god emperor dune altered states alien close encounters third kind avalon book lost swords 2001 space odyssey 2010 odyssey ii odyssey iii complete guide , best offer n't shy thanks seq uncwil edu amiga 2000 tower 144 megs hd space 40mhz '030 w 33 mhz fpu 8 megs 32 bit ram supra modem sony kv monitor wangtek tb
wgs1 isis msstate edu \( walter g seefeld \) subject klipsch speakers like new 200 shipping nntp posting host isis msstate edu organization mississippi state university distribution na lines 10 one pair 's oak finish black includes original packaging 200 shipping firm walter g seefeld dawn 's early light , 940 n jackson st 1a know right , starkville , ms 39759 're going reap sown n5qxr jackson brown
cbnewsk cb att com \( michael \) subject turbografx system sale organization distribution na lines 25 take everything 210 turbografx 16 base unit \( works like new \) 1 controller ac adapter antenna hookup games kieth courage victory run fantasy zone military madness battle royal legendary axe blazing lasers bloody wolf sell games 25 please call mike 908 949 \( day \) 908 469 3250 \( \)
cs3sd3ae maccs mcmaster ca \( holly ks \) subject eric bosco \? ! nntp posting host maccs dcss mcmaster ca organization department computer science , mcmaster university distribution usa lines 4 eric , send email address , lost ! 've ! kevin
jorge erex east sun com \( jorge lach sun bos hardware \) subject typewriter w computer interface organization sun microsystems inc bdc lines 17 distribution usa reply jorge erex east sun com nntp posting host erex east sun com following item sale electronic typewriter panasonic kt 32 , memory , small lcd display i'm selling bundled panasonic computer interface \( \) typewriter connect pc parallel port \( sorry , cable \) works perfect , even windows \( tty printer \) 's great need send letter typewriter look stand alone mode 3 pitches , several effects like underline , bold , built dictionary character word line correction asking 150 typewriter interface jorge lach sun microsystems computer corporation jorge lach east sun com east coast division , chelmsford ,
george cs umass edu \( george \) subject wanted summer housing seattle \( univ washington \) organization university massachusetts , amherst lines 25 distribution usa nntp posting host cs umass edu summer housing needed university washington , seattle hi looking place stay summer university washington , seattle , would internship seattle , got kind space summer sublet , please send email call expect start internship first week june george george cs umass edu george , 54 , village , amherst , , 413 549 h 413 545
holmes webo dg com \( chris holmes \) subject casio cz 101 49 key synth 125 bo reply holmes webo dg com organization data general corporation , , lines 29 ok 've done little research price 've asking bit high casio cz 101 synthesizer 125 best offer features uses fm modulation create sounds programmable envelopes 2 dca 's \( amplitude \) , 2 's \( pitch , like \) , 2 's \( waveform , like vco \) 8 steps 16 preset sounds , 8 memory , 8 still ram cartridge 49 keys pitch bend wheel midi ports includes manuals could ever want ac adapter \( use 6 batteries \) line cord 1 ram cartridge holds 8 additional sounds 'll throw bunch sheet music play rock keyboards christopher holmes insert email ear canal terminals development group evil twin blew world trade center data general corporation got stupid sig file ! westboro , internet holmes webo dg com
nyx cs du edu \( wei yu \) subject windows 3 1 \( new \) sale 35 organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept distribution usa lines 4 windows 3 1 package sale new shrink wrapped asking 35 consider trade used 1 44m floppy drive leave message interested
psu edu \( pen li \) subject slide projectors trade photo organization penn state engineering computer lab lines 17 distribution usa nntp posting host psu edu x news reader vms news 1 24 many people want buy kodak autofocus projectors n't lenses remote sell prefer buy projector post another news asking lenses fit kodak slide projectors willing give away singer ii singer sp \( w built lens , built casette player , speaker , new 500 hr bulb \) try trade kodak projector lenses projector \( viewer \) equal trade 1 2 kodak projector lenses depend focal length pay shipping singer projector \( viewer \) since n't need singer projectors , 35mm slr system n't need , willing trade well
tigger cs colorado edu \( christopher williamson \) subject oscilloscope sale 99 probes 25 ea nntp posting host tigger cs colorado edu organization university colorado boulder distribution na lines 13 tektronix scope sale nice , simple unit learn used school want one play home , easy inexpensive nice handle quite lightweight easy move around consider selling probes seperately 25 ea hp probes suitable type scope probes included price 99 scope need technical info , come look , scope expert said know chris
gregg netcom com \( gregg weber \) subject camcorder sony 8 mm forsale 350 keywords camcorder organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 10 5 years old model ccd v5 6x zoom everything works perfectly uses 8 mm tapes \( hi 8 , around 5 years ago ! \) 350 plus shipping best offer gregg weber let , open bright like sky , gregg netcom com without taking sides , clouds concepts \( 510 \) 283 kun chen pa
gt0869a prism gatech edu \( waters , clyde gordon \) subject 486dx 33 cpu chip sale , 250 distribution na organization georgia institute technology lines 20 article utdallas edu goyal utdallas edu \( mohit k goyal \) writes 486dx 33 cpu chip sale , 250 shipping like pay 250 please refer , selling 150 cpu correct 150 may high amd started selling 486 clones ! indeed ! word , intel 's lawsuit amd absolutely thrown court monday ! amd said would shipping chips intel instruction set next week ! ! ! 486 chip prices going go floor , mark words ! ! ! regards , gordon waters , clyde gordon bme '93 georgia institute technology atlanta ga mountain despair , hew stone hope mlk jr uucp ! decvax , hplabs , ncar , purdue , rutgers ! gatech ! prism ! gt0869a internet gt0869a prism gatech edu
zeus tamu edu \( andrew \) subject complete 386 system sale organization texas university , academic computing services lines 34 distribution world nntp posting host zeus tamu edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 386dx 25mhz \( dtk motherboard intel microprocessor \) 128k internal cache 4 megs ram 89 meg harddrive \( ide controller \) 1 2 meg floppy drive 1 44 meg floppy drive 2 serial ports 1 parallel port samsung vga monitor vga graphics card 101 key keyboard 2400 baud internal modem ms dos 6 0 procomm plus ver 2 0 norton utilities ver 4 5 utilities i'm upgrading need sell system reliable ready go 've never problems i'm asking 1050 b 're interested , please respond either e mail phone zeus tamu edu 409 696 thanks , andrew
pochanay cae wisc edu \( adisak pochanayon \) subject 24 pin printer sale well organization college engineering , univ wisconsin madison lines 35 24 pin printer alps 's fast printer lq sophisticated design straight paper path capability auto forwarding sheets tear back \( big paper saver never waste sheets get current print \) also handle single sheets without removing sophisticated preferences options \( interactively program preferences control printer get printed feedback without ever using computer \) get prompts menus pick current setup default set top line lq dot matrix bought three years ago 399 also epson compatible \( besides 's modes \) comes ibm driver software \( 've never used since amiga \) card slot upgrading memory fonts 'll let go 150 including shipping prepaid cod orders must pay shipping cod costs adisak pochanayon 608 238 also light gun controller nintendo pd driver software use amiga light gun fully remote \( wires \) best offer 75 \( 30 less cost brand new \) cut jeez ! ! ! never fails , get tub 's rub lamp ! genie pochanay cae wisc edu eddie \( adisak \) pochanayon check software 's releases amiga entertainment cut
crane coral bucknell edu \( curt crane \) subject ski boots sale , size 11 11 5 organization bucknell university , , pa , usa lines 11 distribution world nntp posting host coral bucknell edu also pair size 11 11 5 boots black yellow good condition would like around 100 also feel free make offer please reply crane coral bucknell edu thanks , curt
gregory park dartmouth edu \( gregory park \) subject roland juno 60 synthesizer uniden radar detector 4 sale x posted internews 1 dartmouth edu organization dartmouth college , hanover , nh lines 10 roland juno 60 synthesizer excellent condition great fat analog sound used song jump van 300 best offer uniden rd radar detector excellent condition caught cops ! 50 best offer ! smaller credit card compact ! keyboard email greg park dartmouth edu radar email rich lee dartmouth edu ciao
subject win dos misc software michael leonard exchange wyvern com \( michael leonard \) distribution world organization exchange bbs 21 nodes window world 14 \( 804 \) 552 1010 lines 75 help make money new modem 180 00 takes shipping included price original documentation disks include software unregistered , others letter transfer ownership sell software seperately , purchase must greater 30 00 purchases 60 00 get choice two \( 2 \) software selections footnote w windows 3 x version dos version r registered \( letter transfer \) u unregistered special offer ms windows 3 0 ms windows 3 0 resource kit \( bound ed \) 15 00 wr norton desktop windows 1 0 15 00 wr ms excel 4 0 70 00 wr gateway 2000 version \( docs disks ms \) real thing , shipped computer ! ! 1 0 15 00 wu software ms entertainment pack 10 00 wr 's 2000 \( vga \) 20 00 du links 386 pro 25 00 dr includes golf course wing commander ii \( vengeance ! \) 20 00 dr f 15 strike eagle ii 10 00 dr risk \( ega \) 8 00 du 6 0 35 00 du brand new never used quicken 4 0 15 00 dr franklin language master 10 00 dr spell checker , dictionary tsr pops dos app word direct link thesaurus ibm dos 4 00 10 00 dr total 313 00 discount 133 00 cost 180 00 call michael \( 804 \) 486 day 10a est leave e mail thanks ! v1 4 bush presidency aborted recovery hopeful ! ! !
woods ulowell edu subject sale lines 20 organization university massachusetts lowell th following cd 's sale cd cost 10 except otherwise indicated includes shipping handling achtung baby u2 joshua tree u2 immaculate collection madonna 12 love hurts garth brooks garth brooks red hot peppers tlc light shadows wilson used never used , still shrink wraps please email woods ulowell edu
richg sequent com \( richard garrett \) subject computers sale \( pc amiga \) article sequent 1993apr21 distribution na organization sequent computer systems , inc lines 57 nntp posting host sequent com time little house cleaning pc upgrade following sale leading technology pc partner \( 286 \) includes 80286 intel cpu 85mb ide drive \( brand new new system \) 3 5 5 24 floppies 1 meg ram vga kb 5 0 dos hard drive need get 300 system style kb 20 logitech serial latest drivers 45 amiga 500 2 0 roms installed 1mb video ram 4mb ram 501 clone \( 512k ram clock \) disk ide disk controller includes scsi option quantum 105mb scsi drive lots software 4mb \( 4 x 1mb simm \) installed amiga dos 2 04 icd flicker ii asking 500 system , part amiga , make offer ! amiga software 25 plus 5 tetris 5 sword 5 5 sandiego 5 construction kit 10 canadian prototype cd rom fast file system 30 hypermedia cd rom containing fred fish disks 1 480 includes registration card , low cost upgrades 20 amiga hardware reference man 5 amiga vga monitor cable 5 two joysticks 5 prices include shipping contact rich garrett email richg sequent com home \( 503 \) 591 work \( 503 \) 578 ooo rich garrett oo richg sequent com work \( 503 \) 578
subject 4 sale \( update \) koutd hiramb hiram edu \( douglas kou \) organization hiram college nntp posting host hiramb hiram edu lines 15 vhs movie sale kevin dances wolves open used , 12 00 best offer , buyer pay shipping \( 1 00 shipping \) let know interested , send offer e mail address koutd hirama hiram edu thanks , douglas kou hiram college
mike diack mike staff tc umn edu subject nubus ntsc genlock card f sale x xxdate sat , 17 apr 93 02 54 45 gmt nntp posting host dialup slip 1 97 gw umn edu organization persian cat carpet co x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d7 lines 5 computer friends nubus card good graphics overlays videos etc 275 apple 8 bit vid card , 225 without wont sell vid card separately ups \( u pay shipping \) cheers mike
olds helix nih gov \( james olds \) subject roof rack bike accessories 100 take organization national institutes health , bethesda distribution na lines 11 sale car rack 2 bike holder accessories comes nissan pathfinder brackets buy appropriate ones car cheap looking 100 00 everything live bethesda area thanks interest james l olds ph neural systems section domain olds helix nih gov , nih , bethesda , md usa
mark ocsmd ocs com \( mark wilson \) subject update hard drive , vga , etc organization online computer systems , inc x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 lines 36 article crossposted misc forsale computers pc clone author mark wilson posted fri , 16 apr 1993 13 18 42 gmt update \( sale items \) \( plus shipping \) 1 core hard drive , model , works fine , 5 1 4 full height , reduced 90 2 mfm controller , would like sell , 15 asking price , sell 1 100 combined 3 style case 10 \( process selling \) 4 vga card , 512k , asking 25 5 386 max , version 6 0 , asking 25 please email mark ocsmd ocs com use phone mark mark wilson , online computer systems 1 800 922 9204 1 301 601 2215 \( try email address mark ocsmd ocs com \) file disclaims everything signed signature , mean ! mark wilson , online computer systems 1 800 922 9204 1 301 601 2215 \( try email address mark ocsmd ocs com \) file disclaims everything signed signature , mean !
cleveland freenet edu \( terry collins \) subject version 7 sale 486 33dx organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 14 nntp posting host slc4 ins cwru edu version 7 sale purchased august 1992 latest version ! also willing sell 486 33dx hard drive 17 multi scan monitor paid 11 , 000 software 2800 computer also includes 1 yr maintanence contract updated every year 950 per year make offer call 1 800 940 216 941 7400 ask terry
alee ecs umass edu subject hp calculator 13 lines 13 greetings ! hp 20s forsale comes case manuals excellent condition asking 13 00 interested , please e mail today al
watson bms com \( , \) subject house sale , nj news software vax vms vnews 1 4 b1 organization bristol myers squibb pharmaceutical research institute lines 22 posting friend please respond thanks house sale ! ! ! ! ! 16 road , , new jersey description beautiful 3 bedroom , 1 1 2 bath cape cod located large corner fenced lot home features eat kitchen built corner china closet , large living room , wall wall carpeting , floors , new ceramic tile , freshly painted neutral tone home includes new central air heating , new roof , new water heater , aluminum siding , storm windows doors rockwell insulation exterior walls also features new partially finished basement outside entrance new shed lots storage space convenient rt 295 extras , washer dryer , ceiling fans , window treatments call appointment \( 609 \) 586 1946 open house sunday , april 18th , 1 00 4 00 call directions
acsu buffalo edu \( johnny l lee \) subject moving sale summary moving sale organization ub lines 44 nntp posting host lictor acsu buffalo edu reduced prices ! list things forsale behalf brother , 's moving \( moved already \) offer 1 \) black plus \( portable hand \) purchased 32 , 12 2 \) sr 1000 dual cassette portable player , fm 5 band graphics equalizer , high speed , duo tape tape deck , seems lost treble sound , bet 's fixable purchased 80 25 3 \) zoom microscope , made japan , includes case accessories purchased 50 20 4 \) 1400 hair dryer , dryer put head know , ones see \( n't ask bro \) purchased 60 24 5 \) speed bag , leather brand new , never used 10 6 \) blender , 10 speeds cookbook , 5 years old 10 purchased 50 8 \) binoculars , extra wide angle case new 20 9 \) spray , steam dry iron new 10 questions , contact thru e mail reply always , h included , please consider lastly , i'm reasonable reasonable thanks , john
forman ide com \( bonnie forman \) subject mac classic ii originator forman owl organization interactive development environments , sf lines 13 mac classic 2 4 40 sale 1 year old , excellent condition includes , freeware shareware \( including many fonts \) 800 00 email call 510 947 \( sf bay area \) forman ide com real given received ! sun ! ide ! forman b
ac999135 umbc edu \( ac999135 \) subject wanted tg 16 games 2 player organization university maryland , baltimore county campus lines 6 distribution world nntp posting host umbc edu x auth user ac999135 well , title says i'm looking buy cheap used tg 16 2 player support \( simultaneous \) please email offers price rohit
acsu buffalo edu \( johnny l lee \) subject moving sale summary moving sale organization ub lines 44 nntp posting host lictor acsu buffalo edu reduced prices ! list things forsale behalf brother , 's moving \( moved already \) offer 1 \) black plus \( portable hand \) purchased 32 , 12 2 \) sr 1000 dual cassette portable player , fm 5 band graphics equalizer , high speed , duo tape tape deck , seems lost treble sound , bet 's fixable purchased 80 25 3 \) zoom microscope , made japan , includes case accessories purchased 50 20 4 \) 1400 hair dryer , dryer put head know , ones see \( n't ask bro \) purchased 60 24 5 \) speed bag , leather brand new , never used 10 6 \) blender , 10 speeds cookbook , 5 years old 10 purchased 50 8 \) binoculars , extra wide angle case new 20 9 \) spray , steam dry iron new 10 questions , contact thru e mail reply always , h included , please consider lastly , i'm reasonable reasonable thanks , john
chein eng auburn edu \( \) subject case deal lemon nntp posting host wilbur eng auburn edu organization auburn university engineering distribution usa lines 22 hi since could also seller well buyer , 'd like bring issue discussion would best solution case deal became lemon \? understand people selling things net grant warranty , situation seller state whether warranty would granted item received order seller insisted 'in good sent would return half amount paid send item back bad reasonable \? basically would like believe seller tells truth also , positively say 've done anything wrong might cause failure thing assumption everyone honest rule possibility either one two parties liars would like hear opinion either directly respond e mail address know risk could lose money , make enjoyable people wasting bandwidth \? chein
steve titan tsd arlut utexas edu \( steve glicker \) subject 2 power supplies nntp posting host rooster organization applied research labs , university texas austin distribution misc lines 14 two lh research 1 power supplies \( series \) , 5v , 200a \( currently wired \) control lines sense , , pwr fail , high low margin , current monitor \( list price lh research 824 00 qty 1 9 \) asking 500 00 pair steve glicker austin , texas \( steve titan tsd arlut utexas edu \)
mitre org \( mike white \) subject ive motorola handheld radio peanuts ! nntp posting host mac mitre org organization mitre corporation distribution na lines 23 jeff later writes motorola expo vhf ht new 1200 00 would like 400 , best offer ! ! ! i'm sure motorola worth , kind thing always mystified 400 price good , new dual band , fully ht yes , yes , know motorola hts bullet proof , unbreakable , plutonium based drive tank 'll still work often come \? hams willing \( \) spend price dual 2 channel rig \? \? \? note flame said , i'm sure good deal rig i'm amazed good deal would guessed 2 channel rig could never worth much dual ham , matter durable shows wrong mike , opinions
02106 ravel udel edu \( samuel ross \) subject books sale cheap ! ! ! nntp posting host ravel udel edu organization university delaware distribution usa lines 28 someone please buy books ! ! ! ! ! asking much ! ! ! ! ! ! make offer probably take ! ! ! ! ! calculus w analytic geometry authur b simon \( copyright date 1982 \) , avg condition still readable ! writing good software fortran , graham smith holt handbook kirszner mandell \( copyright 1986 \) 720 page writing guide algebra , problem solving approach , 3rd edition w good condition general chemistry principles modern applications , r petrucci , fourth edition big book ! good condition ! solutions manual chemistry book paperback study guide chemistry book paperback send offers via email 02106 chopin udel edu sam 02106 chopin udel edu
ttesta kali enet dec com \( tom testagrossa \) subject net etiquette advertise company 's junk mail list \? lines 34 reply ttesta kali enet dec com \( tom testagrossa \) organization digital equipment corporation , maynard , distribution usa article 1993apr15 leland stanford edu , leland stanford edu \( dale buford thompson \) writes article tsoft net write stuff deleted company maintains 20 , 000 mailing list regularly rented stuff deleted ted impression net etiquette allow companies use net directly advertise products addition improper etiquette , product mailing list used generating junk mail correct assuming improper , , done improper use \? dale thompson well , dale , 'd say offhand hauling would work pretty well n't good hauling long time \( sorry , came conversation yesterday , well , love phrase \) maybe ask folks flood guys mailbox faq net sort poetic justice junk mail trying generate anyway tom tom testagrossa e mail ttesta kali enet dec com us mail 132 st apt 2 , u phone work \( 508 \) 493 \( voicemail \) home \( 508 \) 342 2362 ask
astro arizona edu \( patrick b hall \) subject sale sega genesis system organization university arizona , tucson , az lines 9 roommate selling sega genesis system sonic , nice condition , 100 obo please respond via email arizona edu alternate email addresses noao edu moe ccit arizona edu thanks , pat hall
ns1 cc lehigh edu \( andrew aaron \) subject 84 mazda pickup , \( college pro , student , look \) organization lehigh university lines 26 84 mazda pickup rebuilt engine 60 , 000 miles new transmission , 5 speed 88 , 000 miles new brakes , new brake calipers brand new clutch , 200 miles professional ladder racks , hold 6 4 cylinder , gets 30 35 miles gallon fog lights tach runs great write back call saturday afternoon , sunday would like take look phone 1 215 882 painting summer , excellent vehicle use andy prodigy
shelley u washington edu \( chris liu \) subject game boy games wanted ! organization university washington , seattle lines 3 nntp posting host shelley u washington edu i'm looking game boy games please e mail list offers ! thanks ! also , game boy want get rid , please tell chris
table 3com com \( frank r pereira \) subject moving sale distribution ba organization 3com corporation lines 10 nntp posting host table 3com com moving sale must sell may 5 futon high end , oak , queen , like new 250 computer desk roll top , locks securely , like new 100 color tv 13 , perfect , great bedroom 50 \( sold \) coffee tables dresser 40 b lamps 10 make offer ! ! ask esther 415 571 eve 408 736 day
lorne sun com \( lorne r johnson sun ic region se \) subject warriors tickets sale organization sun microsystems , inc lines 22 distribution ca reply lorne sun com nntp posting host west sun com warriors tickets sale 2 tickets ca n't use \( last pair year \) section 109 , row p , seats 8 9 day date opponent time wed 4 21 7 30 price 45 00 cost call email interested tickets lorne johnson lorne sun com \( 408 \) 562
cs edu \( steven walsh \) subject sony receiver ten disc changer sale ! keywords receiver , compact disc , changer organization university wisconsin distribution misc forsale lines 38 sale str audio receiver 120 watts per channel dolby surround sound pro logic learning programmable remote 10 watts per channel surround sound supports dual room link control \( hear another source different room \) index filing radio stations 7 band equilizer real time analyzer need get 450 unit best offer cdp sony ten disc changer ten disc cartridge custom file favorite program title volume disc \( 184 disc memory ! \) remote control fixed variable volume outputs optical output 8x oversampling rate 325 firm purchased items 6 months ago need sell buy house units immaculate shape priced move steven walsh cs edu \( 414 \) 654
cleveland freenet edu \( orion bernard \) subject indiana jones hint book wanted organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 11 nntp posting host slc10 ins cwru edu looking hint book indiana jones last crusade game ibm e mail call 481 ask orion n't hint book know answer questions 1 beat 2 open door 3 knock security system
xray rice edu \( kenneth dwayne ray \) subject car stereo stolen \? organization rice university lines 31 front panel car stereo stolen weekend need buy front panel sony xr car stereo chance anyone body sony xr stolen otherwise useless front panel would love buy know anyone removeable front panel car stereo stolen , could please forward message \? thanks ! kris understanding purpose removeable front panels make radio useless , thus discourage theft \( cover removed owner taken along whenever car left \) covers sold anything remarkably less radio originally costs , even sold , would n't great personally would unhappy , bought radio like , thinking removing cover greatly depreciated radio 's value , covers sold company \( legitimate source \) cheaply 8 cut , 'd ruin monitor 8 kenneth ray expert someone knows crc ocis less less finally rice university knows everything nothing
subject looking person vhs sale koutd hiramb hiram edu \( douglas kou \) organization hiram college nntp posting host hiramb hiram edu lines 15 looking person made offer 50 five vhs movies able save e mail address person week since made deal , please reply five movies basic instinct born forth july backdraft prince tides presumed innocent douglas kou hiram college
rainier eng ohio state edu \( liu \) subject home base car cb units , motorola beeper sale organization ohio state university dept electrical engineering distribution na lines 31 \( 1 \) uniden 40 channel cb transceiver , model pro home base unit , connectors external speaker pa speaker 3 5 x3 internal speaker , 9 10 button , nb anl pa selector buttons , volume , , rf gain , tone mic gain controls , comes mic side mount mic measures 14 x8 x3 plugs 110v black like new \( actually brand new \) asking 105 , shipping included \( 2 \) midland international model 77 , 40 , car unit one well used black w silver front comes mic , power cord 12v cigarette lighter socket , gutter mount also included \( easy install remove \) asking 45 , shipping included 130 , including shipping uniden alone 150 kmart two work nicely together , one garage one truck \( 3 \) motorola beeper ca n't quite figure model number cost 133 buy n't use , 65
ray astro ocis temple edu \( ray lauff \) subject abyss laserdisc organization temple university lines 21 nntp posting host astro ocis temple edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 article crossposted temple forsale author ray lauff \( ray astro ocis temple edu \) posted wed , 21 apr 1993 01 04 27 gmt regular cbs fox release wide screen edition movie abyss sale , asking 30 , including postage want purchase new director 's cut would like unload laserdisc possible two discs , unopened , 132 minutes , email interested ray astro ocis temple edu ray ray lauff temple university computer services ray lauff astro temple edu ray lauff temple university computer services ray lauff astro temple edu
al qiclab scn rain com \( alan peterman \) subject photo stuff forsale article qiclab 1993apr21 distribution usa organization scn research qic laboratories tigard , oregon lines 62 time clear miscellaneous lenses , cameras photo stuff 's used gems , mundane minolta af 50 1 7 lens cameras new lens , guess 'd best call demo since get literature , box warranty cards 30 2x converter nikon f ai lenses pretty cute flip back tang work manual focus nikon lenses bodies even couple \( double \) non ai lens ai body 15 pentax 50 1 4 lens well actually 's super back mint condition 25 nice hard case lens 5 135 2 8 lens beautifully made , metal construction fine optics minolta mount 25 another hard case fits strap added call 7 283 flash one made famous \( 285 \) tilt head , removable sensor , variable auto exposure 30 universal 63 folding old bellows camera leather case uses 120 620 film , f6 3 lens kinda cool articulated shutter release decent shape 20 weston 540 super fancy , works well , good cross check built meters 7 case strap finally gems pentax auto 110 camera f2 8 lens little \( mean tiny \) slr pentax made interchangeable lenses , try find 20 40 zoom , true lens viewing split image focus , completely auto exposure 70 olympus camera really cute little camera lens \( f2 8 \) built manual auto exposure , self timer etc think predecessor xa 's nearly metal wo n't mind holding onto one n't sell 60 olympus om 1 flash shoe , case , 50 1 4 lens , sd \( super dispersion \) 70 210 lens nice mint condition , except one little ding om body near film advance lever lenses perfect , compact , sharp lens 225 set 'll clean stuff feel free offer stuff , although cheaper stuff priced cover hassle shipping details call email alan l peterman \( 503 \) 684 1984 hm work al qiclab scn rain com 's odd get older , days longer , years shorter !
magnus acs ohio state edu \( kun chen \) subject software forsale \( lots \) nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university post friend , either call j k lee \( 614 \) 791 drop mail distribution usa lines 39 1 software publishing 4 windows v 1 3 80 2 ocr system v 3 1 windows 65 3 ocr system v 2 01 dos 65 4 unregistered 32 bit c compiler v 3 1 250 windows debugger , resource toolkit , library source code 5 2 windows applications framework borland c 70 6 spontaneous assembly library source code 50 7 microsoft macro assembly 6 0 50 8 microsoft windows v 3 1 sdk documentation 125 9 microsoft foxpro v 2 0 75 10 wordperfect 5 0 developer 's toolkit 20 11 software v 3 5 c code generator 100 12 v 2 0 installation generator 35 13 liant software c views v 2 1 windows application framework source code 195 14 ibm os 2 2 0 developer 's toolkit 95 15 dos windows library source code 120 16 symantec timeline windows 90 17 professional windows 30 many software books available , price negotiable
harter5255 iscsvax uni edu subject okidata printer sale organization university northern iowa lines 20 fellow netters , okidata printer would like sell description follows okidata 180 printer including cables ibm compatibles \( centronics parallel \) commodore \( rs 232 round \) also includes power cable , manual , handful computer paper get started 9 pin printer recently cleaned installed new ribbon print sample provided upon request dependable printer never jams weird things used commodore 3 years using 486sx use mainly wordperfect 5 1 \( see next post \) got driver \( charge \) directly supports okidata 180 epson fx mode got printer , selling around 200 220 new \( got mine brand new christmas present \) would like get 100 interested , please give ring \( e mail \) make offer kevin harter
jrm elm circa ufl edu \( jeff mason \) subject auction marvel , dc , valiant , image , dark horse , etc organization univ florida psychology dept lines 63 nntp posting host elm circa ufl edu summary tuesday april 20 , 1993 update following comics minimum bids set would normally sell make offer , accept highest bid auction completed title minimum current alpha flight 51 \( jim lee 's first work marvel \) 5 00 aliens 1 \( 1st app aliens comics , 1st prnt , may 1988 \) 20 00 krism twice amazing spider man 136 \( intro new green goblin \) 20 00 amazing spider man 238 \( 1st appearance hobgoblin \) 50 00 archer armstrong 1 \( frank miller smith layton \) 7 50 avengers 263 \( 1st appearance x factor \) 3 50 bloodshot 1 \( chromium cover , bwsmith cover poster \) 5 00 daredevil 158 \( frank miller art begins \) 35 00 dark horse presents 1 \( 1st app concrete , 1st printing \) 7 50 detective 657 \( azrael appears , intro cypher \) 5 00 harbinger 10 \( 1st appearance h r corps \) 7 00 b matthey sold h r corps 1 5 00 incredible hulk 324 \( 1st app grey hulk since 1 , 1962 \) 7 50 incredible hulk 330 \( 1st mcfarlane issue \) 15 00 incredible hulk 331 \( grey hulk series begins \) 11 20 incredible hulk 367 \( 1st dale keown art hulk \) 15 00 incredible hulk 377 \( 1st new hulk , 1st prnt , keown \) 15 00 marvel comics presents 1 \( wolverine , silver surfer \) 7 50 maxx limited ashcan \( 4000 copies exist , blue cover \) 33 50 brentb twice mr 1 \( signed advance copy , 10 , 000 exist \) 10 00 new mutants 86 \( mcfarlane cover , 1st app cable cameo \) 10 00 new mutants 100 \( 1st app x force \) 5 00 new mutants annual 5 \( 1st liefeld art new mutants \) 10 00 omega men 3 \( 1st appearance lobo \) 7 50 omega men 10 \( 1st full lobo story \) 7 50 power man iron fist 78 \( 3rd appearance sabretooth \) 25 00 84 \( 4th appearance sabretooth \) 20 00 simpsons comics stories 1 \( polybagged special ed \) 7 50 spectacular spider man 147 \( 1st app new hobgoblin \) 12 50 star trek next generation 1 \( feb 1988 , dc mini \) 7 50 star trek next generation 1 \( oct 1989 , dc comics \) 7 50 trianglehead 1 \( special limited edition , \) 5 00 web spider man 29 \( hobgoblin , wolverine appear \) 10 00 web spider man 30 \( origin rose , hobgoblin appears \) 7 50 wolverine 10 \( claws , 1st battle sabretooth \) 15 00 wolverine 41 \( sabretooth claims wolverine 's dad \) 5 00 wolverine 42 \( sabretooth proven dad \) 3 50 wolverine 43 \( sabretooth wolverine saga concludes \) 3 00 wolverine 1 \( 1982 mini series , miller art \) 20 00 wonder woman 267 \( return animal man \) 12 50 x force 1 \( signed liefeld , bagged , x force card \) 20 00 x force 1 \( signed liefeld , bagged , shatterstar card \) 10 00 x force 1 \( signed liefeld , bagged , deadpool card \) 10 00 x force 1 \( signed liefeld , bagged , sunspot gideon \) 10 00 comics near mint mint condition , bagged shiny polypropylene bags , backed white acid free boards shipping 1 50 one book , 3 00 one book , free order large enough amount stuff willing haggle thousands thousands comics , please let know 've looking , maybe help titles posted n't list every issue title , tried save space geoffrey r mason jrm elm circa ufl edu department psychology mason webb psych ufl edu university florida prothan maple circa ufl edu
rainier eng ohio state edu \( liu \) subject cds sale \( brand new \) organization ohio state university dept electrical engineering distribution usa lines 10 6 95 add 1 05 postage \( 4th class \) , makes 8 5 discs still shrink wrapped \( 1 \) kathleen battle , sony classical \( 2 \) david , upfront elektra \( 2 \) kenny g live \( 3 \) jimmy , songs know heart greatest hits mca records \( 4 \) billy ray cyrus , gave mercury \( 5 \) en vogue , funky records
harter5255 iscsvax uni edu subject deals bad organization university northern iowa lines 30 fellow netters , wanted let know honest good people \( even outside iowa \) i'm sorry anyone thinks wasting space , thought might want relief thief posts think n't hear bad deals , would nice hear good news seeing post one sale groups , mailed mr mark miller request copy wordperfect 5 1 dos suggested price 50 ad , phoned , quoted 40 plus shipping sounded fair , told would send check next day imagine surprise logged account following day found message saying already sold \( mailed money order \) another e mail message , apologized assured mistake one holding sent package soon got money , along letter stating transfer license n't good enough wordperfect , asked fill one forms problem thought took three times get right address \( fault \) anyway , mailed form signature included idea included deal , apologized sending world 's best word processor renewed hope world good ones left ever see mark selling anything may want , give call choice , would purchase software bravo , mr miller ! kevin harter
iastate edu \( michael r hartman \) subject car stereo stolen \? organization iowa state university , ames , ia lines 36 article rice edu xray rice edu \( kenneth dwayne ray \) writes front panel car stereo stolen weekend need buy front panel sony xr car stereo understanding purpose removeable front panels make radio useless , thus discourage theft \( cover removed owner taken along whenever car left \) covers sold anything remarkably less radio originally costs , even sold , would n't great personally would unhappy , bought radio like , thinking removing cover greatly depreciated radio 's value , covers sold company \( legitimate source \) cheaply front covers available sony check local car stereo shop probably \( definitely \) provide units serial number hopefully registered warranty card n't know cost , replacements available people damage face cover , stands reason replaced deterring theft worked stereo shop , referred customer sony 800 number would sell face , available people came asking face cover \( matter \) would look find acquired deck could n't use theft occurs decks , notify sony serial numbers catch thought , michael
ucsf edu \( john olson \) subject net etiquette advertise company 's junk mail list \? distribution usa organization university california , san francisco , dept lab med lines 6 improper etiquette illegal people responsible junk mailings evil ! ! ! ! ahhh ive always wanted get chest
netcom com \( f \) subject aviation headset c h10 40 sale organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 25 sale david clark h10 40 aviation headset excellent condition \( even scratch \) original packaging discover h10 40 continues favorite headset thousands pilots first headset advanced 4 amplified electret microphone frequency response specifically designed match human voice also includes durable universal boom assembly noise reduction rating \( \) weighs 19 oz includes telex push talk switch asking 220 00 u shipping negotiable information respond netcom com \( andrew \) andrew f complete less work 9 00am netcom com people day ann arbor , mi usa
tim marshall goucher wb3ffv ampr org \( tim marshall \) subject vax pricing distribution world organization goucher college , towson , md reply tim marshall goucher wb3ffv ampr org \( tim marshall \) lines 25 hello , goucher college soon retiring ii , world case , 2 hard drives , 16 port , 2 mb \( maybe 4mb \) system memory idea much expect get machine open market \? \? please reply privately tim marshall goucher wb3ffv ampr org thanks advance tim marshall associate director , academic computing goucher college , baltimore , md opinions mine alone documentation manual tells use program , system , utility one version ago , unsupported
world std com \( robert j \) subject ! ! ! ibm games sale ! ! ! organization world public access unix , brookline , x newsreader tin 1 1 pl3 lines 62 would like sell software shipping 3 per order 1 games continental u 6 canada contact shipping locations zack 20 perfect condition unregistered docs disks packaging 3 puzzle game great animated graphics tools fixing manufacturing plant hidden throughout levels must solve puzzles get tools use tools fix machines levels huge span many screens graphics humorous \( 256 color vga , mcga , adlib , soundblaster , roland , 3 5 \) legend 30 perfect condition unregistered docs disks packaging adventure heir throne kingdom evil jester murdered parents , king queen , attempted take control kingdom , thwarted spell cast upon grandfather three magic users must travel find magic users gain use help defeat jester beautiful graphics great \( vga , mcga , adlib , sound blaster , soundblaster pro , mt 32 1 , 3 5 \) spirit excalibur virgin 15 good condition docs disks packaging fantasy game combining role playing , adventure , combat simulation heir throne britain arthur died must unite land rule defend invading army north \( ega , tandy , mcga , vga , sound cards , 5 25 \) loom 15 perfect condition unregistered docs disks packaging received computer world award artistic achievement adventure game play role young weaver musical spells must save fellow oblivion traveling land , casting spells , learning new spells people meet , evil plot point click typing every action game involves casting musical spells \( vga , ega , cga , mcga , tandy , adlib , cms sound , 5 25 \) dark seed 35 perfect condition , used little unregistered docs disks packaging adventure based artwork h r inspiration alien , alien iii , ii bought old house bargain secluded town find portal dark , sinister world house plot world know must save world horrible fate gorgeous high resolution graphics \( vga , adlib , soundblaster , 3 5 \) conquest japan impressions 30 brand new , used unregistered docs disks packaging simulation samurai conquest play role japanese lord control five cities japan 's main island , provides money buy armies , must conquer enemy battles fought miniature system watch individual samurai , mounted samurai , , , \( vga , adlib , 3 5 5 25 \)
europa eng umd edu \( tae hun kim \) subject new hard drive sale ! ! ! organization university maryland lines 7 nntp posting host coke eng umd edu seagate 1 2gb scsi hard drive brand new full factory warranty 5 1 4 fh , 15ms access time , 150 , 000 1100 h leave e mail interested
ssa unity ncsu edu \( alavi \) subject technical books sale \( x unix c c os db \) repost organization ncsu computing center distribution usa lines 29 friends buch books sale used due change job , loss interest etc rather letting gather dust , would like pass others may use \( course price \) topics include c c programming languages unix dos os2 windows operating system topics \( general \) x motif olit networking digital signal processing computer graphics computer architecture math software engineering algorithms software testing databases expert systems list long rather posting email request going keep list updated respond requests \( lucky \) interested drop line alavi ssa unity ncsu edu \( 919 \) 467 7909 \( h \)
rupin dang dartmouth edu \( rupin dang \) subject nikon lens forsale organization dartmouth college , hanover , nh lines 5 nikon fm 2n 50 mm nikkor accessories sale bought camera hong kong two years ago everything looked well i'm selling gear finance next big film project asking 350 package bargains
walter psg com \( walter \) subject game wanted organization pacific systems group , portland oregon us lines 24 hi , one try please whenever possible , asked find games , , super whatever model came prior since overseas , first ask already games would offer please send list , whatever price asking send find want bare , respond , take thanks , walter walter psg com please respond directly portland , oregon usa walter 45 31 25 n 122 40 30 w internet walter rain com pop
warsaw athena mit edu \( daniel \) subject cds 6 organization massachusetts institute technology lines 29 distribution usa nntp posting host alfredo mit edu following cds sale 6 plus postage cds perfect condition michael bolton time , love tenderness paula abdul forever girl taylor tell heart lionel composer elvis presley 18 number one hits bobby greatest hits super hits 70 's \( includes yellow river , rose garden , good times , help make night , mr , sweet mary , one line , put hand hand , stay awhile , woodstock , silver bird , ai n't got time anymore \) new fashioned love songs \( import \) \( includes extended remixes dance mixes following know waiting franklin george michael , walk like egyptian , live mental anything love alison 'll alright without journey rain jones dreams reo shake gregory abbott fight two fires paul young falling love miami sound machine away johnson \)
spot colorado edu \( brandon walter \) subject gun forsale ! ! distribution usa organization university colorado , boulder lines 22 nntp posting host spot colorado edu gun sale sl \( great condition \) 11 micro barrel barrel 16 barrel 140 round sight feeder elbow 7 oz constant air tank valve protector shoulder strap 3 7x scope 40 round ammo box flip top lid barrel plug instruction manual allen contact spot colorado edu make offer
sierra com \( roger \) subject victoria , b c hotel room 40 2 nights article sierra 1993apr20 11363 organization sierra geophysics , inc , wa lines 27 victoria hotel 2 nights 40 mid week \( sun thurs \) hotel reservation available victoria , canada 2 nights 3 days 40 expires june 1 , 1993 letter credit \( fully \) issued hotel room number available hotels victoria , canada reputable hotel company provides hotel stays low prices letter credit normally works weekends , , weekends booked solid summer , check directly available dates one member hotels use letter credit june 1 reached \( 206 \) 485 5200 1 800 645 regular business hours , find acceptable reservation date , contact letter credit roger sierra com \( 206 \) 828 \( home \) \( 206 \) 822 5200 \( work \) roger sierra geophysics way \( 206 \) 822 5200 ext 360 , wa sierra com
mb4008 \( morgan j bullard \) subject ami pro v3 0 sale ! distribution na organization university illinois urbana lines 18 goyal utdallas edu \( mohit k goyal \) writes lotus ami pro v3 0 150 please reply interested thank could get new 39 95 phone 800 732 800 358 club 800 753 address pc buyer 's club 62 h ave , n't work , thought good deal pass btw , mine 3 days said would arrive \) morgan bullard mb4008 cen uiuc edu uxa cso uiuc edu
cbnewse cb att com \( robert \) subject sale wheaton organization keywords , wheaton , sale lines 47 sale wheaton lakes wheaton north road call \( 708 \) 682 ask bode \( \) description neat , well cared , low maintenance starter coach home fine condition located de sac move rooms \( 5 1 \) eat kitchen \( 10 3 x 9 2 \) large master bedroom \( 12 6 x 12 6 \) spare bedroom \( 12 6 x 10 \) dining room \( 10 9 x 9 \) living room \( 21 x 11 10 \) utility room \( 10 x 5 5 \) 1 25 baths appliances stove \( gas \) , refrigerator dish washer garage opener washer dryer garbage disposal gas water heater \( 3 years old \) central c digital thermostat highlights electric fire place living room sliding glass doors open patio secluded back yard area plenty storage space patio storage closet storage closet garage new ceiling fan dining room , completely remodeled bathroom \( new wallpaper , shower door , shower tile , etc \) mini blinds windows newer \( \) \( 3 years old \) one car garage plenty guest parking association fees 105 90 includes following lawn maintenance snow removal exterior building maintenance taxes 1992 1 , 700 asking price home 91 , 900
egret wet uucp \( thomas helke \) subject 88 medium format camera , ! ! ! cheaper prices ! ! ! distribution usa organization wetware diversions , san francisco lines 8 agree one aside shutter , built like little tank good camera price sounds reasonable , new , paid 565 88 camera kit good luck thomas helke egret wet uucp
carson u washington edu \( richard \) subject speaker sale organization university washington , seattle lines 22 distribution usa nntp posting host carson u washington edu hi , anybody interested buying speaker \? ss 200 amplified stereo speaker system built amplifier 6 volt input works without batteries individual volume controls treble boost switch great medium quality pc 's sound \( adlib , soundblaster \) walkman 15 \( included shipping \) e mail richard carson u washington edu
doug abcd houghton mi us \( doug \) subject distribution world organization amiga central dispatch lines 15 wonderful commodore 128 sale ! ! ! ! also included 1571 disk drive color power supply \( great shape \) software joysticks 2 300 baud modems \( old , useable \) contact doug \( 906 \) 487 \( 815 \) 623 via dlg pro v0 995
shapiro oucsace cs ohiou edu \( brian shapiro \) subject sale zenith 386 25 motherboard distribution usa organization ohio university c dept , athens lines 30 following posted friend send replies address end post please attention zenith z 248 owners ! ! ! upgrade 8 mhz class machine performance genuine zenith motherboard clone price ! motherboard card pop right z 248 case keeping existing video disk controllers zenith z 386 25 motherboard featuring 16 layer , posted write cache using 15 ns sram 8 mb 70 ns dram included , accepts 20 mb motherboard \( ram upgrades available via running memory bus speeds 7 expansion slots feature 4 zenith 32 bit 8 16 32 bit adapters latest rev z 300 setup monitor roms , two serial ports , one parallel port , secondary fan improved system cooling , z 386 user 's guide , z 386 maintenance guide diagnostics disk included 575 \( includes h insurance \) replies aol com replies forwarded thanks brian brian shapiro , systems support specialist ohio university , athens , ohio \( 614 \) 593 shapiro oucsace cs ohiou edu bitnet
subject star trek eis calstate edu \( dang v nguyen \) organization calif state univ electronic information services lines 10 hey , star trek christmas ornaments sale hallmark shuttle craft galileo went 24 00 christmas willing sell price shipping interested questions , please reply give call 714 539 dang
magnus acs ohio state edu \( michael e ellis \) subject nash metropolitan forsale ! nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university distribution usa lines 34 little nash sat year \( running \) , must move long distance many things carry details car 1958 exterior condition rocker panels weld points , rust typical spots like door hinge mounting points , back battery box , etc missing front bumper , front pan dented , one weld popped front part solid , automobile interior condition missing original steering wheel , one smaller aftermarket wheels , seats need , general fair condition mechanical condition running , want start needs new rings \( \) also extra parts complete long block , extra steering shaft , etc car touched since 1958 , solid shape obviously need work , make good project price well , tough one , would like get around 800 00 , consider serious offers individuals willing come get things trade tools , toys , cameras , comics , cards , etc , anything easily movable florida , may consider well hit r , e mail address ellis 15 osu edu \( 614 \) 777 home \( leave message \) thanks mike
munroe dmc com \( dick munroe \) subject repost tape drives \( 4mm , 8mm \) sale organization doyle , munroe consultants , inc , hudson , lines 18 acorn software , inc 3 tape drives \( currently used vms system \) sale scsi tape drives working condition wangdat 1300 4mm 500 00 wangdat 2600 4mm \( compression \) 650 00 exabyte 8mm 650 00 plus shipping cod certified checks , please units sold without warrantee contact 're interested dick munroe internet munroe dmc com doyle munroe consultants , inc uucp uunet ! ! munroe 267 cox st office \( 508 \) 568 1618 hudson , fax \( 508 \) 562 1133 get connected ! ! ! send mail info dmc com find
crux3 cit cornell edu \( \) subject sony mhc 3600 bookshelf stereo system nntp posting host crux3 cit cornell edu organization cornell university lines 25 forsale sony mhc 3600 hi fi bookshelf stereo system 9 months old cd player 2 tape decks digital graphic equilizer tuner 4 speakers channel top line sony bookshelf system includes amazing remote actually splits two ! everything done remote \( remote digital display ! \) highest quality sound amazing bass ! one scratch system well taken care originally purchased 1299 tax need cash , looking get around 750 since really need money , sell person gives highest offer , accept best offer 750 buyer pays insured shipping reply soon thanks
jb access digex com \( jb \) subject bally 's holiday health club lifetime organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 10 nntp posting host access digex net article w0 uucp uucp \( forrest \) writes sale life time membership holiday fitness club original fee paid 1 , 000 , 'll sell 600 membership fully via proper paperwork include \? good \? annual fee \? thanks , john
ra msstate edu \( b \) subject sale 3 0 road bike w ace 56 cm nntp posting host ra msstate edu organization mississippi state university lines 12 3 0 road bike 56 cm bright blue color ace 8 speed sti , could easily converted though 32 spoke , complete bike 700 best offer offers considered bike go desperate times call desperate measures consider parting , write details jay ra msstate edu
organization central michigan university matthew bailey cmuvm csv cmich edu subject sale apple iigs distribution usa lines 17 apple iigs imagewriter ii color printer color rgb monitor 3 5 drive 5 25 drive keyboard mouse lots disks applications manuals utmost gratification 650 00 bo
root com \( big cheese \) subject laptop cards organization z max computer solutions , inc lines 17 laptop connectivity cards part desc 3270 remote emulation card toshiba laptop computer part desc 2400 bd dedicated internal modem mnp level 5 toshiba part desc internal ethernet card toshiba laptop expansion slot part desc 3270 terminal emulation toshiba laptop expansion slot interested individual parts send email com
02106 ravel udel edu \( samuel ross \) subject sams comics sale \( auction ! ! ! ! \) nntp posting host ravel udel edu organization university delaware distribution usa lines 373 ok instead holding auction , decided compute prices comic \( many suggestions \) reasonable prices give \( negotiable \) would like purchase comic \( group \) , simply email title issue 's want price issue shown beside comic first come , first served ! ! ! bidding meet price reached email address 02106 chopin udel edu 02106 ravel udel edu 02106 bach udel edu 02106 brahms udel edu haggling price ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! lots comics 1 , 2 , 3 look list ! ! ! ! ! bought comics , thanks ! ! ! comics near mint unless otherwise noted \( books graded mile high comics comic professional collectors , ! \) list incredible hulk 156 \( vs another hulk \) 3 195 2 196 2 246 \( vs captain marvel \) 1 248 1 249 1 250 \( double size issue vs silver surfer \) 5 255 \( vs thor \) 1 279 1 300 2 312 2 313 1 316 \( vs bi coastal avengers \) 1 347 1 348 1 350 \( vs thing \) 2 354 1 358 1 360 1 362 \( vs werewolf night \) 2 364 1 365 1 366 1 379 \( 1 copy \) 5 punisher 50 1 57 2 punisher war journal 29 \( ghost rider \) 2 30 \( ghost rider \) 2 punisher armory 1 4 2 2 original ghost rider rides \( reprint \) 1 1 ghost rider \( old series \) 37 3 43 \( vs johnny blaze \) 3 77 \( 2 copies , origin gr dream \) 4 ghost rider \( new series \) 15 \( 1st print , green glow dark cover , 1 copy \) 5 15 \( 2nd print , gold cover w glow cover \) 3 web spiderman 56 \( 2 copies \) 2 60 3 69 \( vs hulk , 1 copy left ! ! ! \) 2 70 \( , 1 copy left ! ! ! \) 2 71 1 72 1 78 1 deadly foes spiderman 1 \( 2 copies \) 2 2 2 3 2 amazing spiderman vs dr octopus \( special issue \) 2 amazing spiderman 350 \( vs dr doom , 1 copy left ! ! ! \) 2 spiderman \( 1990 \) 1 \( silver , bagged \) 4 6 3 7 3 8 \( 2 copies \) 2 9 \( w wolverine , 1 copy left ! ! ! \) 2 10 2 11 1 13 5 16 1 new warriors 1 \( gold cover \) 2 8 4 10 2 11 1 12 1 13 1 14 \( w darkhawk \) 1 15 1 superman man steel 1 2 superman \( new \) 53 \( 2 copies \) 1 55 1 56 1 adventures superman 479 1 annual 3 1 superman annual 3 \( armegedon 2001 tie \) 1 action comics 666 1 avengers west coast 69 \( vs us agent \) 1 batman 465 \( robin returns \) 2 466 1 467 1 annual 15 \( armegedon 2001 tie \) 3 captain america 230 \( vs hulk \) 2 257 \( vs hulk \) 1 armegedon 2001 1 4 2 2 1 2 infinity gauntlet 1 6 4 3 5 3 double dragon 1 1 deathlok \( series \) 2 1 transformers 80 \( last issue \) 2 wonder man 1 1 2 1 flaming carrot 25 \( w ninja turtles \) 2 comet 1 1 legend shield 1 1 justice society america 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 official movie mag turtles ii movie \( sealed w comic \) 5 robin 1 \( 1 copies w poster \) 3 1 \( 3rd print \) 1 5 \( 6 copies \) 1 guardians galaxy 1 6 2 3 3 2 4 2 5 2 6 2 7 2 8 2 9 \( 2 copies \) 3 10 2 11 2 12 1 13 3 14 3 15 1 16 1 17 1 18 \( 2 copies \) 2 superman vs amazing spiderman \( oversized issue 70 's \) 7 darkhawk 1 \( 3 copies \) 8 2 \( 2 copies \) 6 3 5 4 4 5 4 6 3 7 2 8 2 9 3 10 1 thor 246 1 428 1 429 \( vs juggernaut \) 2 430 \( w ghost rider \) 1 431 1 432 \( thor vs loki , 2 copies \) 3 433 \( new thor \) 2 annual 16 1 13 1 23 1 25 2 26 1 alpha flight 29 1 51 6 53 6 94 \( vs 4 \) 1 new mutants 22 2 100 \( last issue , 1st look x force , 1st print , 2 copies \) 5 100 \( 2nd print , gold cover \) 4 flash \( new \) 43 1 48 1 49 1 50 2 51 1 annual 4 1 x men \( new \) 1 \( 5 covers \) 1 2 magneto cover uncanny x men 191 3 215 2 255 \( 2 copies \) 2 258 6 268 \( 1 sold , 1 copy left ! , lee reg artist \) 10 275 \( 1 copy left 1st print \) 6 275 \( gold 2nd print \) 3 276 3 277 3 278 2 279 2 280 2 281 3 282 4 283 6 defenders 52 \( hulk vs sub mariner \) 2 fantastic four 347 4 348 2 349 \( 3 copies \) 2 wolverine 11 3 20 2 41 \( w cable , 2 copies \) 6 42 4 43 3 silver surfer \( 1987 \) 1 6 2 3 3 3 4 3 5 2 6 2 8 2 22 2 24 2 32 2 49 2 50 \( foil cover , 1 copy left ! ! \) 6 51 2 52 2 53 1 54 1 55 1 56 1 58 2 59 2 avengers 326 3 328 \( origin rage \) 3 x factor 40 6 67 3 68 6 71 3 73 1 21 1 22 1 23 1 24 1 green lantern \( 1990 \) 3 2 9 \( 2 copies \) 1 10 1 11 1 12 1 toxic avenger 1 \( 3 copies \) 1 2 1 sleepwalker 1 \( 3 copies \) 2 3 1 7 1 kool aid man 1 \( sealed white bag , 2 copies \) 2 x force 1 \( bagged w cable card \) 4 1 \( bagged w shatterstar card \) 3 2 2 3 1 4 1 nfl 1 1 dr strange 31 1 annual 2 \( 2nd print , armegedon 2001 tie \) 1 hawk dove annual 2 \( armegedon 2001 tie \) 1 justice league america annual 5 \( armegedon 2001 tie \) 1 send bids comments 02106 chopin udel edu thanks sam \( ex comic book collector \) college electrical engineering , university delaware
math uiowa edu \( matt \) subject us robotics 14 4 modem originator oak math uiowa edu nntp posting host oak math uiowa edu organization university iowa , iowa city , ia , usa lines 5 reply delphi com call 708 674 2603 u robotics 16 8 dual standard , v 32 bis , 14 4k baud , 16 8 hst price 449
cbnewsk cb att com \( andrew r \) subject airline tickets o'hare tuscon organization distribution usa keywords tickets o'hare tucson round lines 29 two round trip tickets o'hare tuscon american airlines good thru november reasonable offer refused , lets start 750 \( paid 925 \) hopefully someone use use , n't know way get worth without going tuscon ! ` e mail time cbnewsk cb att com would butler services anything warped \? ! old fart mechanical pcb designer w cad background , still working looking work ! wants take shot asic ic layout ! ! r k cbnewsk cb att com
ai mit edu \( elizabeth \) subject printing organization mit artificial intelligence laboratory lines 37 nntp posting host corpus mit edu reply jack previdi 's message thu , 15 apr 1993 20 02 49 gmt jack previdi p00020 psilink com writes , reply dorothy heydt reminding us advertising done internet matter fact j , make difference almost half million new users joined internet last year , many commercial businesses ban commercial use internet jack , difference using network commercial purposes advertising newsgroups business communication okay advertising hundreds thousands users around planet desire receive advertising okay us pay internet access constrained innate good taste administrator guide \( \? \) us suspect site generated large volume material anybody 's good taste would find getting lot attention n't want may belong public library , n't mean books , disorder stacks , disturb patrons 're constrained rules rest users \( many academic military , get network pay tax grant money carrying private business advertising \) follow secret masters , like everywhere else 're obvious ones prodigy , 're doubt point internet , like everything else , become enough carry advertising time hope confined newsgroups discussion groups like misc writing elizabeth
02106 ravel udel edu \( samuel ross \) subject sams comic sale ! ! low prices ! ! ! read ! ! ! nntp posting host ravel udel edu organization university delaware distribution usa lines 375 ok instead holding auction , decided compute prices comic \( many suggestions \) reasonable prices give \( negotiable \) would like purchase comic \( group \) , simply email title issue 's want price issue shown beside comic first come , first served ! ! ! bidding meet price reached email address 02106 chopin udel edu 02106 ravel udel edu 02106 bach udel edu 02106 brahms udel edu haggling price ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! lots comics 1 , 2 , 3 look list ! ! ! ! ! shipping 2 1 3 comics 3 , price determined volume purchase \( may use big heavy box large orders costs mail \) bought comics , thanks ! ! ! comics near mint unless otherwise noted \( books graded mile high comics comic professional collectors , ! \) list incredible hulk 156 \( vs another hulk \) 3 195 2 196 2 246 \( vs captain marvel \) 1 248 1 249 1 250 \( double size issue vs silver surfer \) 5 255 \( vs thor \) 1 279 1 300 2 312 2 313 1 316 \( vs bi coastal avengers \) 1 347 1 348 1 350 \( vs thing \) 2 354 1 358 1 360 1 362 \( vs werewolf night \) 2 364 1 365 1 366 1 379 \( 1 copy \) 5 punisher 50 1 57 2 punisher war journal 29 \( ghost rider \) 2 30 \( ghost rider \) 2 punisher armory 1 4 2 2 original ghost rider rides \( reprint \) 1 1 ghost rider \( old series \) 37 3 43 \( vs johnny blaze \) 3 77 \( 2 copies , origin gr dream \) 4 ghost rider \( new series \) 15 \( 1st print , green glow dark cover , 1 copy \) 5 15 \( 2nd print , gold cover w glow cover \) 3 web spiderman 56 \( 2 copies \) 2 60 3 69 \( vs hulk , 1 copy left ! ! ! \) 2 70 \( , 1 copy left ! ! ! \) 2 71 1 72 1 78 1 deadly foes spiderman 1 \( 2 copies \) 2 2 2 3 2 amazing spiderman vs dr octopus \( special issue \) 2 amazing spiderman 350 \( vs dr doom , 1 copy left ! ! ! \) 2 spiderman \( 1990 \) 1 \( silver , bagged \) 4 6 3 7 3 8 \( 2 copies \) 2 9 \( w wolverine , 1 copy left ! ! ! \) 2 10 2 11 1 13 5 16 1 new warriors 1 \( gold cover \) 2 8 4 10 2 11 1 12 1 13 1 14 \( w darkhawk \) 1 15 1 superman man steel 1 2 superman \( new \) 53 \( 2 copies \) 1 55 1 56 1 adventures superman 479 1 annual 3 1 superman annual 3 \( armegedon 2001 tie \) 1 action comics 666 1 avengers west coast 69 \( vs us agent \) 1 batman 465 \( robin returns \) 2 466 1 467 1 annual 15 \( armegedon 2001 tie \) 3 captain america 230 \( vs hulk \) 2 257 \( vs hulk \) 1 armegedon 2001 1 4 2 2 1 2 infinity gauntlet 1 6 4 3 5 3 double dragon 1 1 deathlok \( series \) 2 1 transformers 80 \( last issue \) 2 wonder man 1 1 2 1 flaming carrot 25 \( w ninja turtles \) 2 comet 1 1 legend shield 1 1 justice society america 1 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 official movie mag turtles ii movie \( sealed w comic \) 5 robin 1 \( 1 copies w poster \) 3 1 \( 3rd print \) 1 5 \( 6 copies \) 1 guardians galaxy 1 6 2 3 3 2 4 2 5 2 6 2 7 2 8 2 9 \( 2 copies \) 3 10 2 11 2 12 1 13 3 14 3 15 1 16 1 17 1 18 \( 2 copies \) 2 superman vs amazing spiderman \( oversized issue 70 's \) 7 darkhawk 1 \( 3 copies \) 8 2 \( 2 copies \) 6 3 5 4 4 5 4 6 3 7 2 8 2 9 3 10 1 thor 246 1 428 1 429 \( vs juggernaut \) 2 430 \( w ghost rider \) 1 431 1 432 \( thor vs loki , 2 copies \) 3 433 \( new thor \) 2 annual 16 1 13 1 23 1 25 2 26 1 alpha flight 29 1 51 6 53 6 94 \( vs 4 \) 1 new mutants 22 2 100 \( last issue , 1st look x force , 1st print , 2 copies \) 5 100 \( 2nd print , gold cover \) 4 flash \( new \) 43 1 48 1 49 1 50 2 51 1 annual 4 1 x men \( new \) 1 \( 5 covers \) 1 2 magneto cover uncanny x men 191 3 215 2 255 \( 2 copies \) 2 258 6 268 \( 1 sold , 1 copy left ! , lee reg artist \) 10 275 \( 1 copy left 1st print \) 6 275 \( gold 2nd print \) 3 276 3 277 3 278 2 279 2 280 2 281 3 282 4 283 6 defenders 52 \( hulk vs sub mariner \) 2 fantastic four 347 4 348 2 349 \( 3 copies \) 2 wolverine 11 3 20 2 41 \( w cable , 2 copies \) 6 42 4 43 3 silver surfer \( 1987 \) 1 6 2 3 3 3 4 3 5 2 6 2 8 2 22 2 24 2 32 2 49 2 50 \( foil cover , 1 copy left ! ! \) 6 51 2 52 2 53 1 54 1 55 1 56 1 58 2 59 2 avengers 326 3 328 \( origin rage \) 3 x factor 40 6 67 3 68 6 71 3 73 1 21 1 22 1 23 1 24 1 green lantern \( 1990 \) 3 2 9 \( 2 copies \) 1 10 1 11 1 12 1 toxic avenger 1 \( 3 copies \) 1 2 1 sleepwalker 1 \( 3 copies \) 2 3 1 7 1 kool aid man 1 \( sealed white bag , 2 copies \) 2 x force 1 \( bagged w cable card \) 4 1 \( bagged w shatterstar card \) 3 2 2 3 1 4 1 nfl 1 1 dr strange 31 1 annual 2 \( 2nd print , armegedon 2001 tie \) 1 hawk dove annual 2 \( armegedon 2001 tie \) 1 justice league america annual 5 \( armegedon 2001 tie \) 1 send bids comments 02106 chopin udel edu thanks sam \( ex comic book collector \) college electrical engineering , university delaware
jac2y virginia edu \( jonathan cook jac2y \) subject stuff sale music organization university virginia lines 19 cds \( 9 ea inc shipping \) jesus jones , doubt residents , heaven \? rem , document , sad damned single tapes robert plant , solo stuff led zeppelin iv robert plant , nirvana tour led zeppelin , symbols black bob dylan , 1990 tour tie dye offers accepted mail jac2y virginia edu
ux4 cso uiuc edu \( militant archangel \) subject 128k organization university illinois urbana lines 12 hp calculator 128k card manuals , boxes , pc cable , etc 5 months old , hardly used make offer mike mike internet ux4 cso uiuc edu
iitmax iit edu \( hu \) subject gre software , cheap ! organization illinois institute technology academic computing center distribution usa lines 11 gre software ms dos , original disk , manual tutorial stuff , tests , examples lot retail price around 50 best offer around 15 00 , pay shipping best results , need graphic display card , ega vga hu iitmax acc iit edu
sage cc purdue edu \( john baker \) subject sale \( bulls vs blazers ! \) keywords good deal ! distribution usa organization purdue university lines 10 pair cost 100 new year ago hardly ever wore n't look right orange blue blade kind \( terminator style \) willing sell 40 first response get also bulls vs blazers game snes perfect condition selling 35 includes instruction manual john sage cc purdue edu
andy sail stanford edu \( andy freeman \) subject catalog hard find pc enhancements \( repost \) organization computer science department , stanford university distribution usa lines 46 article kfu taurus cs nps navy mil cs nps navy mil \( \) writes andy freeman writes joe doll writes \) catalog personal computing tools engineers scien \) lists hardware cards application software packages \) pc xt ps 2 class machines focus engineering scien \) applications pcs , data acquisition control , \) design automation , data analysis presentation \) would like free copy , reply \( u postal \) \) mailing address n't bother never comes 's cheap trick building mailing list sell junk mail flow indication copy catalog front write tons stuff 's one others \? impression try send used different advert appears buyer engineer want waste catalog i'm 've made 4k worth pc products purchasing decisions one company i'm affiliated past 6 months alone \( bit irony , interesting fraction went suppliers suspect got mailing address people \) pipeline right wanted discuss sorts things , upfront way get catalog 's vip code issues vip code \? \( policy implementation running week 's silly twit award \) btw turns several vip codes 's one i'm using sorts things 6 \( want one , send mail 'll put touch folks application interview qualify \) andy
andy sail stanford edu \( andy freeman \) subject net etiquette advertise company 's junk mail list \? organization computer science department , stanford university distribution usa lines 42 article 1993apr15 leland stanford edu leland stanford edu \( dale buford thompson \) writes company maintains 20 , 000 mailing list regularly rented oh ! someone provided useful information mentioned made money field n't know usenet reserved uninformed speculation people trying sell personal stuff \( houses dead pcs \) huge trying unload stuff bought company retail , non commercial activities ms windows utility product 100 range , available direct media ct , 0 10 per name please let direct mail ! ! ! ! ! ! marketing rep know thanks ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! impression net etiquette allow companies use net directly advertise products net supposed dumping ground free ads , tripe n't seem significant improvement addition improper etiquette , product mailing list used generating junk mail \? either target well enough pay , words , manage send people want stuff \( case junk rest transaction costs borne appropriately case \) go bankrupt seems fair correct assuming improper , , done improper use \? could hold breath could kill offending messages come onto machine refuse send , turn blue andy
mentor cc purdue edu \( cinnamon bear \) subject onkyo ch integrated amp forsale organization purdue university computing center distribution usa lines 18 onkyo integrated amplifier looking get rid 60w ch integra series works great problem asking 100 obo interested call \( 317 \) 743 2656 email address make offer ! ! ! todd \( todd purdue environmental engineering
subject camera system sale joltes husc10 harvard edu \( richard joltes \) distribution usa organization harvard university science center nntp posting host husc10 harvard edu lines 24 posted friend n't net access send replies , 'll office next week , n't expect response least 4 27 ! sale camera system includes 139 quartz slr body 50mm f1 7 \( ! \) lens f2 8 lens medium sized hard case items exceptional condition asking price 175 items listed seller attempting sell lot set , negotiate dick joltes joltes husc harvard edu hardware networking manager , computer services joltes husc bitnet harvard university science center woman become extremely attracted immediately tell 're best friend woman could ever david
victorf seas ucla edu \( victor friedman \) subject apartment moscow rent ! ! ! organization , university california , los angeles lines 19 article 1993apr7 magnus acs ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu \( vladimir \) writes apartment rent downtown moscow ! ! ! 2 room furnished apartment nice location 5 minutes walk subway station walking distance , major shopping centers , , restaurants , government buildings hmmm interesting mean walking distance \? lived moscow 21 years , 5 minutes walk subway station , cannot walking distance unless 1 hour walking mean way , price \? may plan trip \( sure yet , though \) late summer \( victorf seas ucla edu \)
news magnus acs ohio state edu subject '87 buick century estate wagon nntp posting host bottom magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university distribution cmh lines 1 article probably generated buggy news reader
brain cbnewsj cb att com \( \) subject vacation house rental organization distribution usa lines 35 available weekly bi weekly weekend rental brand new private resort community located heart mountains 3 bedrooms 2 bathrooms features full carpeting , cathedral ceiling living dining room , overlooking , stone , deck , country kitchen appliances many features numerous list custom designed built furnished comfort 8 adults community 24 hour security offers 2 large lakes , 4 sandy , 2 swimming pools , 9 tennis courts , many picnic areas , 4 , miniature golf , trout stream lake fishing , team softball , , ice skating run , teen dances , club house etc etc many recreational facilities within easy reach vacation home ski resorts , luxury hotels , international , golf courses , parks , , , horseback riding , scenic trails , , train rides , historical places , kinds restaurants , factory outlet malls , tourist attractions , name ideal place family group vacation weekend getaway traffic congestion air water pollution 2 hours new york , northern new jersey philadelphia information call 908 834 1254 \( daytime \) 908 388 \( evenings weekends \)
subject text books sale must sell koutd hiramb hiram edu \( douglas kou \) organization hiram college nntp posting host hiramb hiram edu lines 22 several books really wish sell calculus analytic geometry howard anton 3rd edition chemistry second edition acts war behavior men battle richard holmes observing nixon years jonathan things carried tim shrapnel heart letters memorial laura palmer good war oral history world war two studs make offer , could contact koutd hirama hiram edu douglas kou hiram college
ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( steve \) subject wanted ultima 5 ibm organization university buffalo lines 4 news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host ubvmsb cc buffalo edu looking ultima v ibm , would like entire package \( meaning need game , would like docs also \) since old game want pay lot money interested selling game please respond message
gt4661a prism gatech edu \( gt4661a gt4661a paolo , marc anthony \) subject computer sale distribution atl organization georgia institute technology lines 5 paolo , marc anthony georgia institute technology , atlanta georgia , 30332 uucp ! allegra , amd , hplabs , ut ngp ! gatech ! prism ! gt4661a internet gt4661a prism gatech edu
johnr cactus org \( john hughes rost \) subject voice processing ibm pcs keywords voice processing hardware software organization capital area central texas unix society , austin , tx distribution tx lines 29 sale voice processing system ibm compatibles item multi line voice processing system description dialog pc xt board provides processing functions call progress analysis four independent phone lines simultaneously features ability record , playback , , auto dial , detect generate dtmf tones , perform telephone functions card make computer talk 4 phone lines simultaneously design answering system one already programmed build digital pager business open business voice mailboxes comes complete manuals demo software programming libraries c \( unix dos \) price list 1395 00 pay 795 00 info send mail ! contact john rost \( 512 \) 343 leave message johnr cactus org send mail
subject items 4sale , received award giving company koutd hiramb hiram edu \( douglas kou \) organization hiram college nntp posting host hiramb hiram edu lines 23 participated promotion company called visual images attempted cancel order package arrived able stop package need 3d camera , wide angle flesh , film , carring case , instruction tapes , 3 vacation vouchers , cancun , las vegas , orlando paid 697 promotion package , vacation vouchers came gift really want sell , make offer whole package participating award , 697 much would end paying strongly believe would get award interested items , could get cheaper price let know , make offer flames please , got enough could reach koutd hirama hiram edu douglas kou hiram college
tsa cellar org \( silent assassin \) subject wanted 286 motherboard , vga card organization cellar bbs public access system lines 9 looking 286 motherboard , preferable 12 16 , 640k 1 meg ram also looking vga card willing trade 1200 external , 5 25 ld drive , 8088 motherboard , monochrome monitor , game boy , combination libertarian , atheist , semi anarchal techno rat define tsa cellar org
tsa cellar org \( silent assassin \) subject sale game boy organization cellar bbs public access system lines 10 sale nintendo game boy , tetris , adventure , star challenge , nemesis , play action football , link cable make offer libertarian , atheist , semi anarchal techno rat define tsa cellar org
phoenix princeton edu \( amer akhras \) subject cd 's sale originator news nimaster nntp posting host phoenix princeton edu organization princeton university distribution usa lines 26 following used cd 's sale 8 unless otherwise marked pay shipping handling costs interested e mail phoenix princeton edu point figure payment mailing procedure artist title robbie robertson love rockets love rockets jeff armchair theatre elvis costello mighty like rose public image ltd 9 cherry raw like bobby brown n't cruel depeche mode black celebration traveling vol 1 bad company 10 6 soul ii soul vol ii 1990 new decade songs love hate paul mccartney flowers dirt simply red stars prince bridge amer akhras phoenix princeton edu
erc berkeley edu \( eric ng \) subject sega genesis plus 9 sports games sale nntp posting host berkeley edu organization university california berkeley distribution usa lines 23 sale 1 sega genesis \( including cables , manuals , boxes \) 1 controller 9 games , including manuals boxes sonic road rash john madden football '92 n h l hockey baseball bulls vs lakers n b playoffs john madden football '93 n h l p hockey super monaco gp ii 300 \( best offer \) price includes ups cod shipping send e mail erc zabriskie berkeley edu interested eric eric ng erc zabriskie berkeley edu ! ucbvax ! zabriskie ! erc
terry walter outlan ersys edmonton ab ca \( terry walter \) subject looking reply terry walter outlan ersys edmonton ab ca \( terry walter \) distribution world organization bbs lines 12 looking video video card ibm one allow watch tv \( coax \) video , video , digitize pictures windows , would like able look rca card tv display , well dos apps heard snes genesis , copy games , real \? message posted outlan ersys edmonton ab ca 403 478 hst v 32bis try , 'll like !
jimd psg com \( jim \) subject spring cleaning sale ! organization pacific systems group , portland oregon us distribution na lines 71 time clean ol' closet stuff offers , n't please read carefully make offer department wordperfect 5 0 , upgrade copy includes disks upgrade manuals best offer balance power , 1992 edition , amiga manual reg card best offer sale department technics model 715 auto reverse open reel stereo tape deck 's auto reverse , deck records onto tape like cassette deck , 's good type editing however , used effectively tape studio applications mastering , works great 3 75 7 5 ips speeds , supports 7 reels dual vu meters record indicators full auto reverse capable \( mechanism works , ! \) adjustable sound sound , socket remote control \( n't know 'd find one , used make 'em \) , plus outlet unit excellent condition rebuilt since got works perfectly price 225 00 best offer , possible trade \( see \) panasonic kx printer 24 pin resolution text graphics modes warranty cards , manuals , usual stuff expect buying like new merchandise i'm selling better printer wide carriage version kx , way test prints available upon request price 250 00 b trade excalibur custom pool cue 19 oz , 13 mm , brass joint , irish wrap , could use new tip hold 've got many , n't need one hits nicely , straight excellent condition price 125 00 b trade imperial hard case \( 1 butt 1 shaft \) available additional 40 00 trades need following things , cash right , want trade , needs straight across list amiga rom upgrade least 2 04 , preferably 2 1 , appropriate dos workbench 1 meg chip amiga amiga hard drive controller \( preferably scsi \) ibm compatible hard drive \( controller mfm \) one 's touchy , full height n't room unless swap needs 100m , consider trading good st 4096 deal intel 14 similar external high speed modem complete list , 's close 've got something way track list , 's probably going interest point email responses , please
mmchugh andy bgsu edu \( michael mchugh \) subject pink floyd 45 rpm singles sale keywords pink floyd rpm singles organization bowling green state university b g , oh lines 17 following 45 rpm singles sale 7 inch records picture sleeves price include postage 1 21 first record , 1 69 two , etc pink floyd learning fly \( columbia promo picture sleeve \) 5 waters , roger sunset strip \( columbia promo picture sleeve \) 10 waters , roger sunset strip \( promo \) 5 waters , roger needs information \( promo \) 10 interested , please contact michael mchugh mmchugh andy bgsu edu
mmchugh andy bgsu edu \( michael mchugh \) subject rolling stones 45 rpm singles sale keywords rolling stones 45 rpm singles organization bowling green state university b g , oh lines 17 following 45 rpm singles sale 7 inch records picture sleeves price include postage 1 21 first record , 1 69 two , etc rolling stones 19th nervous \( london picture sleeve \) 10 rolling stones jack flash \( london picture sleeve \) 10 rolling stones mothers little helper \( london picture sleeve \) 10 rolling stones paint , black \( london picture sleeve \) 10 , please contact michael mchugh mmchugh andy bgsu edu
hpcc01 corp hp com \( thomas c allen \) subject northwest air tix save 30 flight organization hp corporate notes server lines 14 northwest air tix save 30 flight 400 credit northwest airlines must used nov 27 , 1993 50 charge change ticket , sell 320 used northwest flight , n't think refund cash please contact corp hp com \( 415 \) 857 tom allen
mmchugh andy bgsu edu \( michael mchugh \) subject sam virus clinic \( mac \) software sale keywords sam virus clinic software macintosh organization bowling green state university b g , oh distribution usa lines 12 one original sam \( symantec antivirus macintosh \) v3 0 sale comes three program discs one user manual work 800k 1 4mb disc drives selling 17 90 \( make offer \) includes postage respond michael mchugh mmchugh andy bgsu edu
mmchugh andy bgsu edu \( michael mchugh \) subject 45 rpm singles sale \( complete list \) keywords beatles rolling stones pink floyd starr lennon talking heads organization bowling green state university b g , oh lines 46 following 45 rpm singles sale 7 inch records picture sleeves price include postage 1 21 first record , 1 69 two , etc beach boys barbara ann \( capitol picture sleeve \) 10 45 beach boys girls \( capitol picture sleeve \) 15 45 beach boys fun , fun , fun \( capitol picture sleeve \) 10 45 beach boys little girl knew \( capitol picture sleeve \) 10 45 beach boys please let wonder \( capitol picture sleeve \) 10 45 beach boys rock n roll rescue \( capitol promo picture sleeve \) 15 45 beach boys grow man \( capitol picture sleeve \) 10 45 beatles im happy dance \( capitol picture sleeve \) 10 45 doctor burn \( r promo picture sleeve \) 5 45 general public much nothing \( r promo picture sleeve \) 5 45 go lips sealed \( r picture sleeve \) 5 45 lennon , john instant karma ! \( shine \) \( apple picture sleeve \) 15 45 lennon , john mind games \( apple picture sleeve \) 10 45 madonna open heart \( promo \) 5 45 mccartney , paul coming \( columbia picture sleeve \) 10 45 mccartney , paul \( capitol picture sleeve \) 10 45 mccartney , paul stranglehold \( capitol promo picture sleeve \) 5 45 mccartney , paul wonderful \( columbia picture sleeve \) 10 45 mercury , freddie born love \( columbia promo picture sleeve \) 5 45 pink floyd learning fly \( columbia promo picture sleeve \) 5 45 queen kind magic \( capitol promo picture sleeve \) 5 45 punk rocker \( promo picture sleeve \) 5 45 rolling stones 19th nervous \( london picture sleeve \) 10 45 rolling stones jack flash \( london picture sleeve \) 10 45 rolling stones mothers little helper \( london picture sleeve \) 10 45 rolling stones paint , black \( london picture sleeve \) 10 45 starr , photograph \( apple picture sleeve \) 15 45 starr , sixteen \( apple picture sleeve \) 15 45 talking heads road nowhere \( promo picture sleeve \) 5 45 waters , roger sunset strip \( columbia promo picture sleeve \) 10 45 waters , roger sunset strip \( promo \) 5 waters , roger needs information \( promo \) 10 45 interested , please contact michael mchugh mmchugh andy bgsu edu
dlneal apgea army mil \( dennis l neal dlneal \) subject c64 128 game x men sale organization edgewood lines 7 nntp posting host cbda9 apgea army mil selling x men c64 128 10 plus shipping first email gets thanx , dennis l neal dlneal cbda9 apgea army mil
steve cit wayne edu \( steve \) subject turbografx system sale organization wayne state university lines 38 distribution na nntp posting host 141 217 75 24 turbografx 16 base unit \( works like new \) 1 controller ac adapter antenna hookup games kieth courage victory run fantasy zone military madness battle royal legendary axe blazing lasers bloody wolf sell games 25 kidding , 210 00 , man man , buy system new 49 00 electronic games 15 20 00 brand new maybe think price really need money wayne state university steve cass ave 238 detroit , mi steve cit wayne edu
harmon math ohio state edu \( jim harmon \) subject midi keyboard 225 organization department mathematics , ohio state university lines 13 distribution cmh nntp posting host ford mps ohio state edu roland hs 60 \( 60 \) 6 voice fully programmable analog synthesizer 61 full size keys midi memory store 128 patches built speakers connectors midi thru , input \( 2 \) , expansion pedal , head phones , tape load save , patch shift , pedal hold , output \( 2 \) asking 225 harmon mps ohio state edu
mark ocsmd ocs com \( mark wilson \) subject wanted nine mile walk organization online computer systems , inc x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 distribution misc forsale lines 31 article crossposted rec arts books author mark wilson posted wed , 21 apr 1993 11 55 55 gmt looking following book , seen paperback \( lent copy someone , forgetfulness made pronoun permanently ! \) looking one two copies ! title nine mile walk stories \( unsure exact \) author harry \( author rabbi mysteries \) 's collection short mystery stories please email mark ocsmd ocs com call 800 number given thanks ! mark mark wilson , online computer systems 1 800 922 9204 1 301 601 2215 \( try email address mark ocsmd ocs com \) file disclaims everything signed signature , mean ! mark wilson , online computer systems 1 800 922 9204 1 301 601 2215 \( try email address mark ocsmd ocs com \) file disclaims everything signed signature , mean !
ihlpm att com subject forsale 9mm organization lines 25 sale gb 9mm excellent handgun first time buyer experienced excellent condition never misfire make model gb 9mm magazine 18 rounds barrel hard chrome plated inside outside long term durability wear resistance fixed mount price 375 , obo comes 2 magazines , original owner 's manual contact ahmad , ihlpm ! , \( 708 \) 979 \( weekdays \)
vms csd mu edu subject wanted ide hard drive 40 organization marquette university computer services lines 2 reply vms csd mu edu nntp posting host csd mu edu vga monitor e mail
carolan owlnet rice edu \( bryan carolan dunne \) subject wysiwyg word processor dos ! ! ! ! ! ! organization rice university lines 70 hey ! ! ! 've upgraded laptop windows capable one , n't need dos word processor anymore 's great word processor easy use , system , best , wysiwyg editing mode something word perfect n't ! ! i'm asking 65 shipping even comes several hundred dollars free utilities ! ! ! 65 full featured wysiwyg word processor ! ! ! perfect laptop , lower powered machine ! check ca ca wysiwyg mode editing \( word perfect still trying ca ! \) ca graphics importing , scaling , resizing \( comes ca free art ! \) ca scalable fonts \( 30 typefaces included ! \) ca screen printer ! \( see info ca font generator \) ca line spell checking thesaurus ca \( see info ! \) ca great 10 level ! ca multiple columns ca dual document opening editing ca line box drawing ca search replace ca cut , copy , insert , paste documents inside ca documents ca justification control ca margins , tabs , line spacing ca layouts ca headers , , page numbering ca table contents ca multiple rulers one document ca mail merge ca ca also included free utilities ca publisher 's font engine gives pfs write ca scalable fonts sizes ! support ca screen \( write \) printer \( even 9 pin dot matrix looks ca great ! \) comes 30 typefaces supports ca , ! ca grammatik iv grammar style ca checker comes quick reference card easy use ca really helped usage ! ca international english 's electronic ca thesaurus th dictionary pack published ca publishers american dictionary ca ca n't trust words , trust \? ca business images sampler ca library perfect importing pfs write documents ca ca bought product 1 year ago 129 easy use ca turns great looking documents , even dot matrix ca printer want wysiwyg editing dos computer ca , pfs write ! ca ca i'm looking get 65 comes full ca documentation , registration cards , box \( still ca good condition \) , 5 1 4 3 1 2 disks pfs write ca grammatik , 3 1 2 disk ca utilities pfs write comes worth 300 alone , 65 ca full featured wp real bargain buyer pays ca shipping ca ca please respond email carolan owlnet rice edu ca call \( 713 \) 520 ca ca bryan dunne
cmd cbnewsc cb att com \( craig \) subject vcr , cassette , generator , tube tester , lawn organization distribution chi keywords forsale lines 21 sale vcr samsung basic 2 head machine problem loading tape , otherwise plays records fine , remote missing 25 make offer cassette deck pioneer ct , three head , servo control , dolby top line \( close \) several years ago rewind n't work well else fine service owners manual included 45 offer generator 120 vac 2000 2500 watt , voltmeter w duplex outlet , 5 hp engine drive full output master mechanic burlington wisconsin 50 make offer model 625 tube tester 20 make offer lawn scott precision flow model pf 1 drop type , excellent condition , ideal smaller yard 20 make offer craig days 979 home 293
caldwell epcot spdc ti com \( wayne caldwell \) subject printer game sale nntp posting host epcot organization ti semiconductor process design center lines 14 following sale ti 855 printer working condition 100 postage game lost files sherlock holmes original box contents used 1 time unregistered 30 postage email email caldwell epcot spdc ti com hold
ecs rpi edu \( brian craig \) subject polk s4 's forsale nntp posting host ecs rpi edu organization rensselaer polytechnic institute , troy , ny distribution misc forsale lines 14 pair polk s4 sale brand new never opened 220 00 rpi edu
magnus acs ohio state edu \( vladimir \) subject apartment rent russia nntp posting host bottom magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 14 apartment rent downtown moscow ! ! ! 2 room furnished apartment nice location 5 minutes walk subway station walking distance , major shopping centers , , restaurants , government buildings available early june please , call \( 614 \) 459 send e mail magnus acs ohio state edu
ralf iqsc com \( ralf \) subject items sale organization iq software corp lines 24 items sale price listed best offer ! ! ! ! ! ! ! svga monitor 1024x768 non interlaced 14 screen , still warranty ! \( brand new \) 290 00 1200 baud compuadd modem box docs software 20 00 cga monitor cga parallel card 30 00 sco unix v3 2 2 unlimited user os , base extended utilities , uucp 150 00 turbo c turbo c complete reference book 15 00 serial card 1 serial port 10 00 joystick , three button 10 00 ide controller 2 serial , 1 parallel one game port 2 available 10 \( 210 \) 545 , ask ralf
unl edu \( mary \) subject wanted singer 221 organization university nebraska lincoln lines 7 distribution world nntp posting host unlinfo unl edu keywords singer machine i'm looking singer 221 machine \( old , black machine black case \) please contact mary lee unlinfo unl edu
jack office wang com \( jack \( v \) \) subject baseball card sale organization mail news gateway wang labs lines 7 roberto clemente 1969 baseball card sale , near mint condition \( really close mint condition get \) lists 55 recent baseball card may offering 50 'll pay certified postage ship please respond jack office wang com 1 800 999 3732 ext maryland
paschal com \( charles paschal \) subject nth engine graphics cards organization total support computer systems , tampa , florida lines 12 following nth engine graphics cards sale w drivers autocad display list done hardware 640x480 take highest offer charles paschal total support computer systems tampa \( 813 \) 876 uucp paschal fax \( 813 \) 871 2783 us mail post office box tampa , florida
paschal com \( charles paschal \) subject novell 2 0a 3 11 organization total support computer systems , tampa , florida lines 10 novell 2 0a sell 692 upgraded 3 11 460 novell complete documentation network cards except id card charles paschal total support computer systems tampa \( 813 \) 876 uucp paschal fax \( 813 \) 871 2783 us mail post office box tampa , florida
cs3sd3ae maccs mcmaster ca \( holly ks \) subject roland juno 60 synthesizer uniden radar detector 4 sale nntp posting host maccs dcss mcmaster ca organization department computer science , mcmaster university lines 4 actually synth used jump watch video kevin
brett oce orst edu \( brett \) subject high end car stereo sale organization oregon state university , college oceanography lines 25 distribution usa nntp posting host oce orst edu note posted friend reply account please direct replies scott burke scott com alpine 6 cd shuttle paid 600 , want 420 obo alpine 1203 remote cd changer control paid 250 , want 175 obo boston 10 0 \( 2 \) box paid 545 , want 380 obo equipment 6 months old includes full replacement 5 year warranty original point purchase subwoofer box custom designed fit back bronco ii 14 21 27 send replies scott com scott burke project leader corporation corvallis scott com telephone \( 503 \) 757 fax \( 503 \) 753 waiting nuts brett brett oce orst edu
tsa cellar org \( silent assassin \) subject sale misc ibm stuff organization cellar bbs public access system lines 10 5 25 internal low density disk drive monochrome monitor 8088 motherboard , built parallel serial ports , built mono color output , 7mhz libertarian , atheist , semi anarchal techno rat define tsa cellar org
shapiro sofbas enet dec com \( steve shapiro \) subject ms c c book forsale nntp posting host organisation sks computer consulting , inc organization digital equipment corporation marlboro , lines 12 regards , steve steve shapiro views opinions expressed sks computer consulting , inc offered steve shapiro z1 fidonet org bbs \( 508 \) 664
reply win net \( jeff freeman \) win net \( jeff freeman \) subject question suggestion everyone please read lines 28 , transaction obviously cod allows parties exercise amount trust see fit cod fine buyer opens box find paid 150 00 brick seller allows personal check used cod 's fine till stop payment made methods protect buyer seller sort transaction even merchants customers problems stolen credit cards , , return policies getting wrong item , etc protection available business someone trust someone around jeff jeff freeman 1 800 go porch toll free front porch computers 1 706 695 1888 voice rt 2 box 2178 1 706 695 1990 fax , ga , 21 compuserve id internet win net
wam umd edu \( anu \) subject car sale nntp posting host rac3 wam umd edu organization university maryland , college park distribution usa lines 35 mikefran wed apr 21 10 55 39 edt 1993 article 56 csc general newsgroups dc forsale , dc general , um general , csc general path wam umd edu ! mikefran mikefran wam umd edu \( michael francis \) subject car sale message id 1993apr21 wam umd edu keywords 1981 volkswagon scirocco sender usenet wam umd edu \( usenet news system \) nntp posting host rac3 wam umd edu organization workstations maryland , university maryland , college park distribution csc , um , dc date wed , 21 apr 1993 14 27 29 gmt 1981 volkswagon scirocco gold exterior interior 5 speed transmission fm stereo cassette sunroof engine good condition new tires needs 300 work front left control arm damage caused runs well asking 800 00 obo email mikefran wam umd edu
dtmedin catbyte b30 ingr com \( dave medin \) subject transmitter tube reply dtmedin catbyte b30 ingr com organization intergraph corporation , huntsville al lines 17 've got transmitter linear amplifier tube , unused , original packaging \( opened \) 'd guarantee tube operate observation paperwork say \( unused \) , although transmitter test offers \? dave medin phone \( 205 \) 730 3169 \( w \) ssd networking \( 205 \) 837 1174 \( h \) intergraph corp gd3004 internet dtmedin catbyte b30 ingr com huntsville , al 35894 uucp uunet ! ingr ! b30 ! catbyte ! dtmedin everywhere look \( least around office \) opinions expressed mine \( machine \)
mitre org \( mike white \) subject ive motorola handheld radio peanuts ! nntp posting host mac mitre org organization mitre corporation distribution na lines 30 agent x writes longer use anything japanese kenwood , , icom , , junk well , i'm sure 'd go quite far , agree motorola gear better quality question much quality worth ham amateur service , commercial service radio hear repeater thats 40 miles away without antenna ok , great often come \? good good enough , much someone willing pay \? good ham quality ht maybe 500 , commercial quality one maybe 2000 increased reliability performance worth 4 times price amateur service \? individual involved answer question , ham decide motorola quality worth 4 times price , power i'm amazed folks make choice , , given 've got 2000 spend , pick ht nice new hf rig every time motorola ht alone , matter good , ham quality gear good enough 73 mike , opinions
set matt ksu ksu edu \( visionary gfx \) subject attention super nintendo genesis players read organization kansas state university lines 56 distribution world nntp posting host matt ksu ksu edu im pleased announce new revolutionary device allows copy super nintendo genesis games floppy disk later play floppy disk cart independent system interfaces snes genesis features store multiple copies cart save game disk \( 32 saves disk \) save position snes games n't save feature switch snes slow motion mode use codes get unlimited lives cheats many games multi game hunter capable copying snes genesis game carts standard ibm pc floppy disks games played directly floppy disk note require pc full color screen icons menus make operation mgh simple even child could operate options selected simply choosing selection game controller button add game saver adapter system game playing power game saver allows save position disk almost snes game ! reload saved position time enable 's slow motion feature really tough games control game play , game finger software game finger software give unlimited lives warp new levels favorite snes games bring back life really frustrating games also know program 6502 asm code create snes demos games mgh includes base unit , disk drive \( high density 3 5 drive \) , ram , 256 sram , adapters comes ready hook system thing included power supply pick radio shack 500 disclamer customer assumes responsibility use misuse product way encourage condone use product software piracy device intended making legal backup copies neither nintendo sega giving official endorsement products described herein email info make purchase
organization central michigan university cmuvm csv cmich edu subject radio lines 3 digitally tuned radio alarm clock 5 presets per band , fm , sw1 , sw2 bands asking 25 reply details thanks pete cmuvm cmich edu
davidson mail sas upenn edu \( david davidson \) subject portable color v 160 distribution usa organization university pennsylvania , school arts sciences lines 20 nntp posting host mail sas upenn edu hey , color watchman sony sale 6 x3 x1 total screen 2 75 diagonal , 2 wide , 1 5 tall got 2 years ago 320 , i'm asking 160 obo vhf uhf switch channels 2 69 slot audio video vcr \( appropriate cord provided \) slot phones slot c adaptor \( c adaptor also provided \) slot external antenna \( internal antenna provided \) switch manual tuning , volume , brightness hue battery run well \( 4 aa batteries provided \) 's used little looks like new email interested dave
reb ingres com \( \) subject white toyota camry le 1988 must sell reply reb ingres com \( \) organization e 4th st home new jersey div lines 10 must sell 1988 toyota camry le car ac , ps , pb , sunroof , fm cassette radio , cruise control , etc miles white red interior car excellent condition located , nj area 7900 best offer interested please call 201 666
sage cc purdue edu \( \) subject sale items wanted organization purdue university computing center distribution usa lines 19 , 've got pair oakley forsale , red scratches used twice last summer i'm looking 25 30 dollars please give bid i'm looking following items bubble jet printer works el cheapo looking cannon bj 5 u bubble jet sell please tell i'm looking spend 100 sound cards \( sound blaster compatible \) i'm looking fer something cheap , 50 dollars thanks address sage cc purdue edu
athena cs uga edu \( austin harris \) subject handheld radio scanner organization university georgia , athens distribution usa lines 12 hello , handheld radio scanner police , fire , ambulance , aircraft , cordless cellular phone , etc unit original condition comes manual , power supply battery charger price 200 plus h austin harris athena cs uga edu
richg sequent com \( richard garrett \) subject wanted original pc article sequent 1993apr21 distribution na organization sequent computer systems , inc lines 11 nntp posting host sequent com looking , game tiles pc 's copy laying around , send email richg sequent com thanks , ooo rich garrett oo richg sequent com work \( 503 \) 578
cabell vcu edu \( robert r \) subject vhs movie sale organization virginia commonwealth university expires sat , 15 may 1993 04 00 00 gmt lines 19 n't mcdonald 's sell copies dances wovies 7 long ago \? also selling babes toyland \( scott version ! \) something even think video drive thru 'll take , , copy debbie go want fries \? bob \( vcu edu \) post , i'm really going start studying really
formula athena mit edu \( ronald r duff jr \) subject new 3m \( used \) 8 floppy disks sale organization massachusetts institute technology lines 39 distribution na nntp posting host mit edu brand new shrinkwrapped boxes 8 floppy disks would like sell 3m disks 40 \( 4 boxes 10 \) ss sd 8 floppy disks 60 \( 6 boxes 10 \) ds dd , w wp 8 floppy disks selling ss sd 3m disks 25 90 box ten selling ds dd 3m disks 31 90 box ten take best offer get disks \( many boxes want \) also quantity 8 floppy disks people getting rid , probably due upgrade newer drive system disks used labels , appear good physical shape however , make guarantees quality disks statistics quantity make type 10 3m single side double density , soft sector , 128 bytes record 66 single side double density , soft sector , 128 bytes record accept best offer receive disks i'm willing sell different amounts , minimum box ten \( get offers disks would considering throwing new disks i'm selling \) also head cleaning kit 8 disk drives take best offer get sales final would prefer ship cod add shipping costs onto total order cost please send e mail formula athena mit edu interested address ronald r duff jr phone \( 508 \) 842 \( home \) 29 drive \( 617 \) 253 \( work \) \( mit room 6 332 \) shrewsbury , internet formula athena mit edu
iastate edu \( calvin n hobbes \) subject wanted one way flight des moines chicago summary ticket needed 28th may organization iowa state university , ames , ia lines 5 hi need one way flight ticket des moines chicago 28th may 1993 please send replies iastate edu account soon possible thank
foxfire access digex com \( foxfire \) subject car audio forsale organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 19 nntp posting host access digex net car audio products sale kicker \( stillwater designs \) 2 10 sealed box box manufactured direct kicker \( instructions \) asking 175 shipping kicker \( stillwater designs \) 2 kicker 12 \( instructions \) asking 175 shipping \( sold pair ! \) kenwood amp 220 watts x 2 2 ohm stable \( box instruction included \) asking 375 shipping im selling item friend without internet access either e mail call \( mike \) \( 410 \) 665 foxfire
foxfire access digex com \( foxfire \) subject car amp forsale organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 45 nntp posting host access digex net car audio system items sony xr 7070 head unit \( radio \) 20 w x 4 max dolby b controls sony cd disc track select track disc scan repeat shuffle play features auto reverse logic controls 6am presets strong station memory preset scan tuner monitor seek manual tuning mono stereo local dx switches metal tape compatible orig 299 sony cdx a15 10 disc cd changer 4x oversampling , dual converters single clock design features one beam laser spring silicon charged suspension system horizontal vertical mounting 13 pin din connector 10 disc magazine connecting cable 5 20 , 000 hz 0 05 thd orig 399 asking 450 radio \( cd controller \) cd changer problems either unit reasonably good condition \( radio cd sold together \) two \( 2 \) amp 360 3 channels x 2 x 1 4 ohms 20 20 , 000 hz 0 09 thd 1 channel x 1 4 ohms 20 20 , 000 hz 0 2 thd 2 channels x 2 4 ohms 20 20 , 000 hz 0 09 thd 2 ohm stable features pwm switching power supply w protection circuits orig 249 asking 150 units good working condition currently used supply power subs \( demonstrate power ratings ! ! \) interested items , questions drop e mail foxfire access digex com
sonata cc purdue edu \( jian \) subject computer stuff sale organization purdue university lines 93 computer hardware \( working fine last time checked \) tandy 360k external floppy drive cable \( hardly used \) 70 software \( software include original manual \) \( even card \) per financial financial statements balance sheet income expense etc 8 keyboard trainer \( typing teacher \) 8 easy working tri pack \( includes following \) database store kinds information planner spreadsheet writer easy use word processor great simple calculations , work processing etc 8 books inside norton utilities , revised expanded brady books authored rob introduction peter norton , maker norton utilities includes detachable quick reference card norton utilities shows get norton utilities standard edition norton utilities advanced edition norton commander \( 1 0 3 0 \) norton editor norton disk doctor plus peter norton line guides book full justice power variety norton utility software peter norton price originally 24 95 asking 14 95 turbo pascal express revised \( one disk \) 250 ready run assembly language routines make turbo pascal faster , powerful , easier use equipment determination routines access expanded memory extensive keyboard mouse input functions extremely fast video facilities , including text graphics routines fancy menus windows routines bit operations data compression routines elaborate printer control , formatting , error recovery powerful routines searching directory trees displaying tree diagrams detailed information writing assembly routines assembly language programmers original price 39 95 asking 22 95 hard disk power w disk utilities \( two disks \) complete guide hard disk efficiency power techniques maximum pc performance understand hard disk works beneath surface original price 39 95 asking 22 95 prices include shipping prices negotiable please contact jian 1 \( 317 \) 495 3732 e mail sonata cc purdue edu \( preferred \) interested jian planets sonata cc purdue edu science advanced dos windows desqview os 2 unix
subject usr 16 8k hst external mo herbert cccbbs uucp \( herbert \) reply herbert cccbbs uucp \( herbert \) distribution world organization cincinnati computer connection cincinnati , oh 513 752 1055 lines 13 sale u robotics 16 8k hst external modem , including power adapter , users guide quick reference card 515 00 call voice \( 513 \) 831 let 's talk herb 1 02 42 dogs come call cats answering machines
rajaram camilla eng sun com \( \) subject sale window shades organization sun microsystems , inc mt view , ca lines 14 distribution ba reply rajaram eng sun com \( \) nntp posting host camilla keywords furnishings window shades originator rajaram camilla kirsch pull window shades white , light filtering 73 25 wide , 72 high , cut width brand new , unopened best quality , vinyl coated cotton mounting brackets included 35 \( bought 60 j c \) rajaram sun com \( w \) 415 336 \( h \) 510 796
lmsc5 lmsc lockheed com subject porsche 928 organization lockheed missiles space company , inc lines 6 posting friend 1982 porsche 928 new vehicle 74 , 000 today book list vehicle 11 , 500 15 , 000 perfect every way options including new paint , leather interior , sunroof low miles call \( 408 \) 264 4444 ask frank lets negotiate trades considered
sage cc purdue edu \( knight \) subject hd forsale trade organization purdue university computing center lines 25 ide hd forsale trade would like trade possible hd ide digital errors bad sectors 13 access time 855 per second transfer rate working computer right looking trade maybe sega genesis pair sub sound stereo reciever kind equipment \( equipment like almost kind , car , home equipment , want make offer trade let know cd player ect \) please interested trade let know email sage cc purdue edu
nyx cs du edu \( kirk peterson \) subject brand new h p toner sale , cheap ! organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept lines 30 sale brand new hewlett packard toner cartridge model number hp selling toner recently bought brother hl printer toner selling activated toner , ended returning printer store , however would take back toner toner used print three pages perfect condition protect shipment toner escapes comes original packaging manuals toner compatible laser printer uses model number toner selling look manual see work go 60 00 pay shipping anywhere continental united states interested , leave email call kirk peterson \( 303 \) 494 7951 anytime thank !
nyx cs du edu \( kirk peterson \) subject ibm software sale , cheap ! organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept lines 76 sale three software packages ibm pc compatible computers wing commander deluxe edition includes secret missions 1 2 includes original packaging , manuals disks includes registration card \( send register name \) original price wing commander 69 95 original price secret missions 29 95 original price secret missions ii 29 95 total original price 129 85 asking price games together 65 00 wing commander secret missions battle flight simulator set space includes standard fun things flight , like taking landing carriers , flying course better yet , also battle simulator lot fun , indeed ibm pc compatible least 640k , dual floppies hard drive required resume windows includes original packaging , manuals disks original price 50 00 asking price 35 00 resume resume writing program windows excellent program \( got job ! \) running window 's interface makes , easy use answer questions , print results minutes , beautifully professionally designed resume ibm pc windows 3 0 later installed 1 mb free hard disk space required typefaces includes original packaging , manuals disks original price 99 99 asking price 30 00 typefaces package three font families \( total twelve fonts \) windows 3 1 fonts included , crystal , course italic , bold bold italic versions included fonts unique font software included package , fonts used either program , adobe type manager , truetype , geoworks , express publisher coreldraw ibm pc windows 3 1 hard disk required want use typefaces truetype format formats , ibm pc hard disk one programs listed required interested programs , please either leave email call kirk peterson \( 303 \) 494 7951 , anytime n't answer , leave message answering machine 'll call back pay shipping programs anywhere continental united states thank !
jeff taligent com subject genesis carts forsale x date wed , 21 apr 93 12 53 47 gmt organization taligent , inc x useragent nuntius v1 1 lines 16 posting friend please call steve , 415 252 1618 , interested sega genesis games sale original boxes original manuals approximately 1 month old john madden football '93 , electronic arts , 40 00 obo dolphin , sega , , 40 00 obo , i'm posting friend interested , call steve 415 252 1618
apple com \( raj \) subject 1 2gb disk sale ! ! ! distribution usa organization apple computer inc , cupertino , ca lines 10 1 2gb full size seagate scsi2 disk sale model brand new disk , never used formatted send offer aux apple com raj
berger eds com \( damien berger \) subject saturn sale summary 1992 saturn sl2 5spd keywords auto , saturn nntp posting host organization eds c4 west lines 14 1992 saturn sl2 5spd miles ac , cruise , abs , air bag , cassette , anti theft excellent 12 , 000 obo consider 85 88 5spd compact part trade damien berger berger ug eds com
ctp com \( richard clark \) subject special organization cambridge technology partners distribution us lines 9 sale 1982 hobie cat special , good condition trailer , , righting system , many extras boat currently garaged , 25 miles east boston 1800 contact ctp com call \( 617 \) 374
carson u washington edu \( darrell kirk \) subject sale complete communicator card ibm voicemail , modem , fax organization university washington , seattle lines 8 distribution usa nntp posting host carson u washington edu complete communicator , latest vers new box works dos windows one card get fax , voicemail modem auto switch , one line handles fax , voicemail modem communications 500 new 250 dollars , pay shipping
mentor cc purdue edu \( cinnamon bear \) subject tuner integrated amp forsale organization purdue university computing center distribution na lines 29 old tuner integrated amp longer use integrated amp section work right cost much fix believe chip used preamp works great ! nice looking well built set low profile amp rather heavy tuner fine working condition match amp amp rated ch went 850 new would like get 150 obo pair anybody knowledge fix amp , estimate done cost less 50 parts please email interested moving back home summer sell back todd \( todd purdue environmental engineering
mentor cc purdue edu \( cinnamon bear \) subject onkyo integra series integrated amp sale organization purdue university computing center distribution na lines 18 onkyo integrated amplifier looking get rid 60w ch works great integra series problem asking 100 obo interested call 317 743 2656 email address make offer ! ! ! todd \( todd purdue environmental engineering
cwis isu edu \( michael \) subject 1989 honda accord lx organization idaho state university , pocatello lines 16 distribution usa nntp posting host cwis isu edu 1989 honda accord lx light brown , four door power windows , power brakes power locks , power steering , power antenna fm cassette , totally cloth interior nice ! 70 , 000 miles excellent condition ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! must sell , quit job go back school blue book 9 , 200 idaho asking 8 , 000 obo email cwis isu edu phone 208 233 pocatello , idaho michael 's send email u electronics student cwis isu edu
mkbaird david wheaton edu \( marcus k baird \) subject cd roms 4 sale \( new \) organization wheaton college , il lines 101 i'm looking find people interested getting cd rom 's list prices interested , send mail guarantee price local shipping cost , cod cost prefer shipped way marcus american business dos 20 00 animals dos 30 00 animals mpc 30 00 birds dos 20 00 mammals dos 20 00 barney bear goes school dos 30 00 bible library dos 45 00 bibles religion dos 15 00 book lists dos 30 00 family choice dos 23 00 select dos 24 33 business economics dos 30 00 business backgrounds dos 20 00 business master dos 20 00 san diego \) mpc 30 00 cd play launch dos 25 00 cd rom software dos 20 00 cia dos 35 00 chess master 3000 mpc dos 35 00 classic col dos 60 00 dos 15 00 cookbook dos 15 00 's atlas usa win 25 00 desert storm mpc 35 00 arcade battles dos 15 00 dictionaries language dos 15 00 education master dos 20 00 electronic home library dos 35 00 family doctor dos 30 00 family encyclopedia dos 49 00 family encyclopedia mpc 49 00 game master dos 20 00 game pack ii dos 25 00 golden immortal dos 25 00 great cities world dos 25 00 cities world mpc 30 00 great cities world ii dos 25 00 great cities world ii mpc 30 00 encyclopedia dos 60 00 encyclopedia mpc 60 00 disc 1992 dos 15 67 ham radio dos 15 00 information usa dos 35 00 islands designs dos 20 00 jets props dos 25 00 jones fast lane dos mps 25 00 kgb cia world fact book dos 25 00 kings quest 5 dos mpc 25 00 library future dos 90 00 loom dos 35 00 mpc wizard mpc 15 00 macmillan kids dictionary mpc 55 00 magazine rack dos 25 00 majestic places dos 20 00 beacon teaches typing mpc 35 00 mixed mother goose dos mpc 25 00 money , money , money , dos 20 00 monkey island dos 35 00 oak cd stand dos 15 00 solar system dos 15 00 presidents dos 85 00 publish dos 30 00 reference library dos 35 00 secret weapons mpc 35 00 games dos 35 00 overload dos 15 00 sher holmes consul det mpc 35 00 sleeping beauty dos 20 00 cd software bundle 4 titles n 90 00 stellar 7 dos mpc 25 00 story time interactive dos 25 00 cd rom collection dos 15 00 time magazine almanac current dos 35 00 time table sci innovation dos 35 00 tons gigs dos 49 00 many dos 15 00 total baseball dos 30 00 us atlas w dos 35 00 us history dos 35 00 us world atlas dos mpc 30 00 us wars civil war dos 25 00 wild places dos 25 00 wing com ultima vi dos mpc 35 00 world view dos 25 00 e mail mkbaird david wheaton edu mkbaird david bitnet uunet uu net voice 708 752 internet 192 138 89 15 mkbaird david uunet uu net e mail mkbaird david wheaton edu mkbaird david bitnet uunet uu net voice 708 752 internet 192 138 89 15 mkbaird david uunet uu net
rupin dang dartmouth edu \( rupin dang \) subject minolta fd 50 mm forsale organization dartmouth college , hanover , nh lines 4 minolta fd 50 mm lens sale good condition asking 30 rupin dang dartmouth edu
rupin dang dartmouth edu \( rupin dang \) subject panasonic answering machine forsale organization dartmouth college , hanover , nh lines 3 auto logic panasonic answering machine dual cassette system include cassettes ac power adaptor excellent condition asking 30 accessories
ltd uhura cc rochester edu \( paul k \) subject mostly non computer items \( rochester area \) nntp posting host uhura cc rochester edu organization university rochester rochester , new york lines 51 swell items sale hardly computer stuff lotus 1 2 3 student edition dos 10 00 everything standard 1 2 3 release 2 01 could , much size limited 64 columns 256 rows , translation facility \( importing data packages \) , student edition write files accessed release 2 01 includes manual , original distribution diskettes \( 5 1 4 360k \) , key board templates subaru service manuals 10 00 complete set , includes sections 4 , 5 6 cover mechanical components \( suspension , wheels , steering , brakes , control cables , heater ventilator , air conditioning \) , body \( body exterior , doors windows , seats , seat belts , interior , instrument panel \) , electrical \( engine electrical system , body electrical system , wiring diagram , trouble shooting \) genuine subaru issue manuals model year 1986 , plenty good information applies years well miscellaneous darkroom equipment 75 00 solar enlarger \( several objective lenses \) timer , negative carriers 35mm 2 1 4 x 3 1 4 , misc printing masks developing tanks , thermometer , trays , constant temperature bath , ground glass , mirrors , darkroom lamps , , el cheap \( say \) much ! beautiful antique buffet 1500 00 solid cherry \( \) handmade , interesting corners drawers built \( think \) around covered simple , elegant piece furniture , big \( 60 long , 37 tall , 24 deep \) little cape cod house deliver items \( ie , 10 \) anywhere rochester area \( consider delivering others \) deliver \( near \) campus graduation call e mail paul mary \( 716 \) 359 \( south rochester , ny \) ltd uhura cc rochester edu
mace cc purdue edu \( michelle kao \) subject 4 4mb simms sale \( 30 pin , 80ns , mac \) organization purdue university lines 2 shipping
goldberg oasys dt navy mil \( mark goldberg \) subject camera bags sale reply goldberg oasys dt navy mil \( mark goldberg \) distribution usa organization naval surface warfare center , annapolis , md lines 43 1 large padded bag \( maker unknown \) exterior , black straps interior five outside pocket plus lid compartment lid internal held whole 2 1 4 system , metz flash , etc 50 2 small nikon shoulder bag sorry sold 3 small nikon belt pouch like 2 similar design army ammo pouch belt clips , etc holds flash small zoom , lens cleaner , etc 5 4 belt pouch , black also metal loops want attach strap velcro closure similar 3 concept , bigger holds 35 135 zoom flash , small accessories , etc hardly used cost 20 originally sell 15 5 coast camera bag tan brown strap main front pocket hold af slr small zoom plus flash , film , etc looks like gore tex n't think really 15 terms payment advance money order bank check , cash buyer pays shipping 1 must go ups others , send adequate self addressed mailing envelope \( padded recommended \) enough postage \) \) \) everyone 's entitled opinion \) goldberg oasys dt navy mil imagination important knowledge albert einstein \) \) \) everyone 's entitled opinion \) goldberg oasys dt navy mil imagination important knowledge albert einstein
david ruggiero osiris halcyon com subject bare 386 25 micronics system 495 originator osiris halcyon com reply osiris halcyon halcyon com \( david ruggiero \) organization none fight entropy \? distribution na lines 35 bare means says get case , power supply , motherboard \( ram coprocessor \) everything else add like case power supply standard desktop case power supply usual connectors room five floppy hard drives \( three visible , two internal \) motherboard us made micronics 8 slot motherboard intel 386dx 25mhz cpu 64kb sram cache 4mb ram using simms \( worth 150 alone \) cyrix math coprocessor \( worth 90 alone \) norton si 6 0 rating 26 1 latest version phoenix bios please post email saying get taiwanese 386 90 9 95 including free toaster ! certain find cheaper brand x board without even breaking sweat new micronics cpus command several hundred dollar premium us made , use high quality components , known reliable compatible systems sold gateway zeos various points past \( check ads back pages byte pc magazine want see price differential \) price 495 complete , 100 less n't want need case power supply board fully guaranteed email details questions thanks ! david ruggiero \( halcyon com \) seattle , wa home moss people
bgsu edu \( \) subject nintendo games forsale \( dead nintendo \) organization bowling green state univ lines 27 forsale nintendo control deck two controllers gun , one controller grips attached nes connect composite monitor tv audio video rca input jacks needs repairs 25 best offer games sale 15 baseball 15 bowl 15 double dribble 15 wayne gretzky hockey 15 golf 10 super mario duck hunt 10 10 25 super bowl 130 total , 'll give 100 best offer throw control deck 'll also accept best offer games oldest two years old , less year old tom warning , signature construction , enter risc
pitt edu \( tod \) subject sale 27 band equalizer organization pitt lines 15 27 band \( mono \) equilizer sale anyone knows unit knows 's recording studio standard years 's pretty straightforward unit , balanced ins outs power supply caps recently replaced , added connectors \( easily removed prefer , mounted bracket outside case \) unit good shape , clean i'm asking 225 ups shipping 're going 250 generally make offer tod computing information services university pittsburgh \( 412 \) 624 work , 371 home
magnus acs ohio state edu \( david w bennett \) subject looking \( music macintosh \) nntp posting host bottom magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university distribution na lines 8 i'm trying set personal studio i'm looking cheap sampler \( rack keyboard \) cheap sound card \( ii something similar \) cheap course relative
eng umd edu \( \) subject mfm controller wanted organization project glue , university maryland , college park lines 9 distribution usa nntp posting host pepsi eng umd edu friend looking buy mfm controller one sale , would please contact email thanx eng umd edu cbis com
subject cd 's sale uceng uc edu \( parikh \) distribution usa organization university cincinnati lines 19 hi ! following 2 cd 's sale absolutely new original packing artist album original sale price price madonna immaculate collection 19 95 11 95 pet shop boys 19 95 11 95 interested , pls contact ucunix san uc edu thanks parikh
cory berkeley edu \( \) subject stealth vram nntp posting host cory berkeley edu organization university california , berkeley lines 13 sale item brand new stealth vram hi color card w 1meg display price 135 comes install disk turbo windows 3 x drivers w 24bit color halo desktop imager \( 24bit \) windows 3 x advanced autocad accelerator \( includes big picture \) complete manual interested , please e mail cory berkeley edu thanks
msuvx1 memst edu subject cd sale distribution world organization memphis state university lines 11 cd 's sale 1 jon bon new jersey 8 00 2 8 00 3 police every breath take 8 00 1 00 h e mail memstvx1 memst edu
davidk netcom com \( david \) subject 88 toyota camry super deluxe 9 9k organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 15 88 toyota camry top line vehicle blue book 10 , 500 asking 9 , 900 73 k miles auto transmission everything ! owned meticulous mechanic call \( 408 \) 425 ask bob posted friend
nyx cs du edu \( lance \) subject rc car trade organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept distribution na lines 30 title 'bout says remote controlled car sale trade features 75 racing engine installed \( original included well \) 2 sets tires 2 channel radio receiver body completly great shape battery charger every thing need running right box , fast everything 100 n't run thing long time day check everything ok 'd listen cash offers , interested trading extra storage computer following interested trade , drop line ide hard drive 50 megs \( must 3 5 wide , 1 tall \) scsi hard drive 50 megs \( must 3 5 wide , 1 tall \) scsi tape backup \( make size \) scsi cd rom 9600 baud modem \( external \) please leave offers questions email nyx cs du edu
nyx cs du edu \( lance \) subject wanted digital camera organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept distribution na lines 13 wanted cannon 's digital camera 'd interested makes , one i'm familiar need one composite output approx 50 pictures per disk capability one sale , know cheap place order one , please leave email nyx cs du edu thanks
alin nyx cs du edu \( ailin lin \) subject vga card 1 meg wanted organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept lines 7 must 1 meg memory support res 1024x768 \( even higher better \) 9 15 pin ports also supports ega cga , 's better pay 30 1 \( shipping \) let u one like ailin 803 654 8817
godzilla larc nasa gov \( arthur \) subject bally 's holiday health club lifetime organization csc nasa langley research center lines 19 distribution world nntp posting host godzilla larc nasa gov article access digex net , jb access digex com \( jb \) writes article w0 uucp uucp \( forrest \) writes sale life time membership holiday fitness club original fee paid 1 , 000 , 'll sell 600 membership fully via proper paperwork include \? good \? annual fee \? since life time membership , wo n't worry next life arthur csc nasa langley aerospace engineer ms , hampton , va j j arthur larc nasa gov \( 804 \) 865
rupin dang dartmouth edu \( rupin dang \) subject nikkor 70 210 af forsale organization dartmouth college , hanover , nh lines 4 nikkor af 70 210 f 4 5 6 zoom lens excellent condition i'm looking get 2 8 version i'm selling asking 175 offers please
rupin dang dartmouth edu \( rupin dang \) subject nikon lens forsale organization dartmouth college , hanover , nh lines 8 fm 2 sold following remains minolta md 50 mm lens 25 ricoh camera zoom lens \( identical features nikon fe , plus \) great condition inquire low price vhs tapes brand new fuji high quality inquire
der anomaly sbs com \( admiral david e ryan \) subject amps , ht sale organization small business systems , incorporated , , ri lines 18 following equipment sale 1 kenwood th ht 250 00 2 rf concepts amp \( \) 275 00 3 class c continuous duty amp 250 00 prices include shipping insurance additional information , contact address dave admiral david e ryan der anomaly sbs com ! uunet ! rayssd ! anomaly ! der
cs ulowell edu \( bill huang \) subject sega genesis sale trade game gear organization zen self constraint institute technology distribution usa lines 16 sega control panel super gp ii one regular controller one turbo controller c adapter v cable stereo cable carrying bag would like 90 plus shipping trade game gear game please e mail feel interested , thank ! bill
er1 eridan chuvashia su \( \) subject sale high oil russia , 450 ton , 400 ton reply er1 eridan chuvashia su distribution eunet organization firm eridan lines 1 address er1 eridan chuvashia su
er1 eridan chuvashia su \( \) subject sale high oil russia , 450 ton 400 ton reply er1 eridan chuvashia su distribution eunet organization firm eridan lines 1 address er1 eridan chuvashia su
mallen eniac seas upenn edu \( matt allen \) subject amiga 's sale keywords amiga distribution pa organization university pennsylvania lines 20 nntp posting host eniac seas upenn edu sale 2 amigas ! commodore amiga 1000 best offer 512k ram 1 internal floppy drive detachable keyboard 2 button mouse commodore amiga 500 best offer ram 1 internal floppy drive 2 button mouse 1 rgb monitor best offer 1 external floppy drive best offer call brian \( 717 \) 872 send e mail con huey edu
pro freedom van wa us \( brandon bates \) subject wanted video equipment \( repost \) article pro free 1993apr21 organization proline pro freedom \( apple ug vancouver , wa \) lines 11 looking working docking deck \( deck goes back camera \) old jvc gx tube video camera format acceptable please send message even know anything decks gx also interested video equipment sale , professional consumer thank pro freedom van wa us pro freedom bbs \( 206 \) 694
pk wet uucp \( philip king \) subject pc , network office equipment long \( repost , lower prices ! \) keywords pc , lan , novell , ethernet , ibm , laser , copier distribution na organization wetware diversions , san francisco lines 161 new posting , lower prices ! ! make offers anything seems interesting ! ! company i'm associated closing inventory office equipment 's 's available quan item description price ea new additions ! ! 1 novell 100 user version best offer netware 2 15 advanced netware 286 , tts , sft ii system fault tolerance level \( remember ii \( disk , mirroring \) , v2 2 sells transaction tracking \( fault 3000 tolerant file system \) , etc 100 manuals alone take users ! foot half shelf space ! 1 hayes hayes peer peer lan 40 starter package operating system email netbios compatible , expands 128 users unopened 1 canon great little copy machine 200 makes great copies \( needs toner \) reduce , enlarge , etc good condition , bargain ! \( end new items \) 2 token ring cable mau \( 750 \) testing certification tool standard 625 handheld testing unit used large companies coca cola american express physical layer current retail price 1495 demo new 1 microtest excellent modem server novell \( networks supports remote lan 900 \) node , modem , lan lan asynchronous routing ethernet version current retail 750 price 2000 13 microtest lanport standalone ethernet print 200 aui com1 server novell networks \( intel 150 ea based original retail 595 \) brand new 12 microtest lanport see bnc com1 11 microtest lanport see bnc com1 , com2 3 microtest lanport see aui com1 , com2 4 microtest lanport see aui lpt1 1 microtest lanport see bnc lpt1 2 token ring mau 8 port ibm clone 100 5 milan mil aui 10baset mini transceiver \( 50 \) 40 1 8 3x hp laserjet plus compatible \( 400 \) laser printer 8 ppm , 300 dpi based canon engine , 325 serial ibm ports emulates hp , epson fx , ibm proprinter , diablo , downloads hp fonts reliable ! 2 ibm 2 quiet , letter quality printer 100 1 sheet time feed extra ribbon cartridges 1 ibm tractor feed 25 3 ibm pc xt compatible misc pc xt compatible computers , \( pcs limited \( original 150 \) dell computer co \) , tech pc xt come least 20 mb hard disk , 125 360 kb floppy , monochrome video card , keyboard , 640 kb memory 3 ibm pc compatible original ibm \( 200 's , turbo clones 250 \) clone brands include , , everex standard 175 equipment , 200 except 30 40 mb hard drives , 1 1 2 mb floppy 4 amber monitor pc ibm compatible monochrome ttl 20 type , brands vary , including samsung , magnavox , \( mostly want stay local hard ship \) 2 ibm green monitor ubiquitous ibm pc display , 20 monochrome ttl type \( local see \) 1 zenith 92 laptop pc full size full \( 300 \) travel keyboard , xt compatible , backlit \( \? \) display , 250 dual 720k floppies 1 8w 8 bit , bnc ethernet interface \( 60 \) card pc compatibles unit nicely made \( mostly 45 \( also 1 used , bo \) surface mount \) clone ubiquitous western digital wd new box disk 6 western digital real mccoy version 50 drivers available anything used surprising performance 8 bit card dma hassles 1 2400 modem internal , pc compatibles \( 35 \) box , almost new , works fine 25 1 hayes internal internal 1200 real hayes modem 15 pc compatibles untested terms c , shipping extra usual , offers welcome , think prices fair equipment tested working perfectly , unless otherwise noted please contact via email follows pk wet com netcom , hoptoad ! wet ! pk thanks !
pchang ic sunysb edu \( pong chang \) subject sale c 128 system w printer 130 obo nntp posting host libws4 ic sunysb edu organization state university new york stony brook lines 20 commodore 128 epson 10 9 pin printer 1571 disk drive 2 joysticks 1 mouse lotsa software , games apps rapid fire joystick adapter year old 130 obo c ommon pchang ic sunysb edu ense state university new york stony brook e ngineer
organization university illinois chicago , academic computer center noel b lorenzana u38134 uicvm uic edu subject marvel comics sale ! \( mostly cover price \) lines 43 comics sale marvel majority comics cover price buyer pays shipping shipping costs vary quantity buy reasonable offers considered punisher w j 9 , 10 , 13 , 14 , 15 , 16 , 17 , 20 28 , 31 40 , 43 1 75 punisher 34 , 42 , 43 , 49 , 51 54 , 1 50 \( regular series \) 56 62 x factor 1 4 00 2 4 3 00 37 , 48 , 41 , 45 , 50 , 1 75 63 4 00 65 , 66 3 00 69 75 1 50 annual 7 2 25 silver surfer 4 , 22 , 23 , 29 , 30 , 41 , 50 \( 1st , 3rd print \) 51 62 1 50 x force 1 6 1 50 7 17 1 25 ghost rider 5 8 00 7 4 00 8 , 11 3 00 13 34 2 00 new mutants 2 , 7 , 9 , 14 , 15 19 , 26 , 48 , 50 , 58 , 63 , 87 \( 2nd \) , 100 2 00 marvel comics 89 , 91 , 92 , 95 , 96 , presents 99 , 100 1 50 please send replies u38134 uicvm uic edu \( noel lorenzana \) thanks
organization university illinois chicago , academic computer center noel b lorenzana u38134 uicvm uic edu subject comics sale ! lines 48 miscellaneous comics sale really would like get rid lack space buyer pays shipping , offers considered oh , first purchase 20 posts gets free maxx 1 2 coupon , trashed copy amazing 300 goes deathlok 1 3 00 2 17 1 75 annual 1 2 50 special 1 2 00 sleepwalker 1 , 2 , 6 , 8 , 9 , 13 7 00 \( set \) 1 25 next men 1 3 00 ray 1 1 00 deathstroke 5 , 6 1 75 darkhawk 13 1 25 new warrior 's 18 1 00 four 358 2 50 moon knight 35 , 36 1 75 hulk 386 388 1 50 punisher w z 1 2 50 cage 1 1 50 x force 1 2 00 silver sable 1 2 00 x 26 , 27 , 48 , 49 1 50 hearts darkness 5 00 infinity 1 4 2 50 batman v 1 , 3 2 00 \( deluxe \) 1 5 00 guardians galaxy 1 3 00 spider man 2099 1 3 5 00 \( set \) spec spider man 189 3 00 \( special hologram \) let know 'd like buy anything address u38134 uicvm uic edu thanks , noel lorenzana
well sf ca us \( bob \) subject newtek video toaster link sale keywords newtek video toaster amiga mac organization whole earth 'lectronic link , sausalito , ca lines 16 nntp posting host well sf ca us bout dozen newtek video toaster links available connect macs video toaster list 595 , street price likely 495 sell 425 including shipping anywhere factory shrinkwrapped plus tax california e mail call 916 924 f 8 5 would like info toaster toaster accessories system components available well bob well sf ca us \( 916 \) 338
berger chaos cs brandeis edu \( david berger \) subject 101 keyboard wanted organization brandeis university lines 7 i'm looking buy 100 working keyboard 286 system \( preferably 101 layout \) i'm looking spend 20 david
jay gdx uucp \( jay snyder \) subject wanted avionics equip organization gdx bbs , central pa unix bbs anon uucp \( 717 \) 737 pep 2400 1200 lines 21 i'm looking good deals following \( used new \) aviation \( mic \) handheld nav com \( may consider com \) portable gps loran navigator reply call \( 717 \) 737 \( 5pm please n't wake night worker house \) \( 717 \) 540 must call day \( understand want employer pay call \) jay snyder jay gdx uunet , ! ! gdx ! jay brain \( unix \) gdx bbs \( 717 \) 737 brain drugs \( msdos \) unix msdos file areas xenix jay snyder jay gdx uunet , ! ! gdx ! jay brain \( unix \) gdx bbs \( 717 \) 737 brain drugs \( msdos \) unix msdos file areas xenix
gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) subject star trek \( tos \) novels 3 8 package summary price phoenix fate phoenix memory prime nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) organization phds hall distribution usa lines 16 reading recent interview trip waiting day o'hare month ago , waiting storm new york ! price phoenix fate phoenix memory prime take package 8 , trade good used cd gld je souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go ! ! ! gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
raman ucsd edu \( jose \) subject sale pc game keywords , video game , pc game lines 6 electronics art 's game sale book original 3 5 disks original box 22 best offer contact raman ucsd edu
jerry rose com \( jerry \) subject synoptics lan h w article rose 1993apr17 distribution misc organization rose media inc , toronto , ontario lines 21 x gated usenet rosemail gateway \( v1 70 \) sale trade 2 synoptics model , lan new , never used , original packing unit 12 ports 10 ethernet connectivity included one power supply , manuals , bracket hardware 19 racks setup using unshielded twisted pair \( \) telephone wiring units 400 , trade i'm looking 386dx 486dx pc hardware email jerry rose com phone 416 855 \( , week \) rosereader 2 10 entered rose rosemail 2 10 rosenet usenet gateway rose media 416 733 2285
aix rpi edu \( laura j \) subject xt clone sale article rpi organization rensselaer polytechnic institute , troy ny lines 35 nntp posting host aix rpi edu sale ibm compatible xt personal computer \( dos \) brand age 4 5 years specs 640k ram 20 meg hard drive 5 1 4 floppy drive color monitor 2400 baud usrobotics internal modem bundled loads software word processing , communications , spreadsheet , games good computer successfully got ba , ms , half phd \( decided switch mac dissertation \) perfect high school student , college student , person needs basic word processing , spreadsheet , database capabilities best offer reply laura mts rpi edu laura j phd candidate dept language , literature , communication rensselaer polytechnic institute , troy , ny 12180 rpi edu science technology social aspects computing criticism
jr0930 eve albany edu \( regan james p \) subject macintosh plus sale expires 5 5 93 organization state university new york albany lines 16 f r l e c h e p macintosh plus includes 2 3 5 drives \( 1 external \) software word , excel , pascal , intro package \( hypercard , tour , etc \) leaving school may , must sell ! ! ! ! ! ! steal 450 please reply e mail jr0930 eve albany edu jr0930 albnyvms bitnet strong
hinds stanford edu \( alexander hinds \) subject sega genesis games sale keywords sega , genesis , games organization stanford university , california , usa lines 11 sega genesis \( barely used \) like sell following games sonic \( \) revenge iii i'm asking 160 obo best reached via email , alternatively , phone \( 415 \) 497 alexander hinds
hinds stanford edu \( alexander hinds \) subject headphones sale keywords headphones organization stanford university , california , usa lines 9 two pairs headphones 'd like sell excellent , great condition ah jvc ha reasonable offer accepted alexander hinds \( 415 \) 497
djk ccwf cc utexas edu \( dan keldsen \) subject steady keyboard stand sale update article geraldo reply djk ccwf cc utexas edu \( dan keldsen \) distribution usa organization university texas austin , austin tx lines 29 nntp posting host tramp cc utexas edu originator djk tramp cc utexas edu hello folks ! since last sold , last time went problems , i'm moving , keyboard stands n't need anymore n't want drag back across country ultimate support stand probably sold , see gone saturday \( pick date \) steady 3 tier keyboard stand 95 best offer \( try \) one x shaped bottom unit , two sets arms attach support keyboard \( 2 \) main x shipping included prices , details worked 're interested items dan keldsen djk ccwf cc utexas edu dan keldsen , ever djk ccwf cc utexas edu college student \? univ texas , austin b member fan billy death \? music composition , mm c max programmer \? consultant \( ask \) think c midi programmer \?
thouchin cs umr edu \( j \) subject sale paradise svga accelerator card article umr 1993apr17 2922 distribution usa organization university missouri rolla lines 13 nntp posting host mcs213c cs umr edu originator thouchin mcs213c cs umr edu sale paradise svga accelerator card 15 times faster vga manual , drivers used 5 months , perfect condition wd chipset 120 obo info thouchin cs umr edu j
night acm rpi edu \( trip martin \) subject printing article rpi reply night acm rpi edu distribution na lines 13 nntp posting host hermes acm rpi edu 0 p00020 psilink com jack previdi p00020 psilink com writes matter fact j , make difference almost half million new users joined internet last year , many commercial businesses ban commercial use internet true , long standing tradition keep commercial advertising biz hierarchy trip martin night acm rpi edu night acm rpi edu rpi edu
ua umn edu \( brian \) subject pc transporter sale organization university minnesota , duluth lines 18 distribution na nntp posting host ua umn edu hello , pc transporter sale work either apple iie gs however , gs installation kit pct also co processor installed comes latest software \( 2 05 \) 3 5 drive get pc transporter \( problems runs great \) installation kit pct \( gs \) video tape instructions needed color adapter monitor co processor installed board manuals software \( ver 2 05 \) one 3 5 800k drive hook pct \( gs \) brian send reasonable offers email ub umn edu
com \( \) subject 14 4k modem zoom distribution world organization bbs aurora , il 820 lines 10 zoom 14 4k fax data v 32bis modem purchased january happily provide fax comm software box manuals selling 125 h cod 703 435 feel free call quickest service olx 2 1 td yes become asm programer 1 , 000 , 000 h
yuanchie aludra usc edu \( roger hsu \) subject 14 4k fax modem sale repost organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 14 nntp posting host aludra usc edu hi , since original buyer found could n't use modem mac \( beleive mentioned 's internal former post \) , modem available modem v 32bis interested , please e mail thanks ! ps sorry already lost e mails stated interested modem still interested , please e mail
hernandez info gw com \( manny hernandez \) subject misc items \( pip tv tuner , cb ant , gym , scanner run \) distribution atl forsale , misc forsale organization information gateway bbs 1 404 928 7873 lines 77 following items sale rabbit pip tuner like gym scanner \( 800 mhz \) cb antenna blazer jimmy running boards rabbit pip \( picture picture \) box device used vcr tuner allow second channel popped corner screen press swap remote small picture swapped main picture limitation box 36 channel tuner means box cannot tune higher cable channel 36 however , vcr tuner capable tuning higher , simply tune vcr channel desired swap pictures \( assuming alternate picture channel 36 lower \) work fine original cost 149 sell 75 running boards jimmy blazer brand new black running boards 15 models purchased realized could use \( return period expired \) wheel trim installed vehicle original cost 125 sell 65 20 channel scanner cellular frequencies \( 800 950 mhz \) along 7 bands brand new ni cad battery pack original cost 249 sell 135 gyn model 2000 gym , similar solo flex gym similar solo flex uses resistance bands increase effective lifting weight black made steel extra set bands purchased included original cost 349 sell 125 big stick cb antenna 27 mhz band sell 30 weight difficulty , last 2 items atlanta area please share non cod shipping charges thanks manny information gateway bbs 1 404 928 7873 public access newsgroups email please reply hernandez info gw com \( sysop \) hernandez info gw atl ga us
cnsvax uwec edu subject forsale 286 hard drive organization university wisconsin eau claire lines 17 packer bell 286 5 16bit expansion slots 2 5 25 external drive bays \( floppies \) 1 3 5 internal drive bay \( hard drive \) 1 44mb 3 5 floppy drive 1mb ram 140 best offer \( including shipping \) 32mb scsi hard drive great shape controller 32mb 3 5 format 85 best offer \( including shipping \)
zmed16 trc amoco com \( michael \) subject sale 4 track recorder originator zmed16 organization amoco production company , tulsa research lines 11 fostex x 26 4 track recorder sale excellent condition includes dolby noise reduction , sub mixing , 6 inputs uses normal cassettes interested , make offer please respond zmed16 trc amoco com thanks , mike
zmed16 trc amoco com \( michael \) subject sale drum machine originator zmed16 organization amoco production company , tulsa research lines 12 hr 16 drum machine sale includes velocity sensitive pads , 49 digital sounds , 99 pattern memory 49 song memory interested , make offer please respond zmed16 trc amoco com thanks , mike
att com \( greg peterson \( \) \) subject 1990 mitsubishi eclipse gsx sale organization ims , nj \( usa \) distribution nj lines 26 sale 1990 mitsubishi eclipse gsx wheel drive 195 hp , 16 valve , turbo 5 speed transmission limited slip differential fm stereo w cd player , cassette , 6 speakers fog lights air conditioning cruise control electric windows front rear intermittent wipers washers alloy wheels 22 , 000 miles blue excellent condition asking 11 , 899 \( negotiable \) call pete 908 457 \( work \) 908 821 \( home \) respond attmail com
cbnewsm cb att com \( scott g crawford \) subject riding lawn mower sale organization distribution nj keywords riding lawn mower sale lines 30 1987 riding lawn mower mower perfect condition contains following features electric start 26 inch cut double rear new battery new engine \( one year old \) inflatable tires \( gives nice ride \) seat \( gives nice ride \) tuned blade past month moving house small area grass cut require large mower engine replaced , rebuilt , last year due faulty work done lawn mower repair shop price 600 00 phone 908 582 \( day \) 609 259 \( nights weekends \)
susan wustl edu \( susan \) subject test nntp posting host organization washington university , st louis mo distribution stl lines 1 test thanks
rigel cs pdx edu \( brad davis \) subject sale 386 25mhz motherboard \( system \) 8 megabytes summary 386dx 25 system w 8mb 475 motherboard alone 325 article pdxgate distribution organization portland state university , computer science dept lines 30 recently upgraded 486 found n't really need old 386 'd prefer sell motherboard keep case etc , 'll offer motherboard case separately let decide i'm asking 325 motherboard , 25mhz 386 dx \( sx \) 8 megabytes 32 bit , 70ns memory ami bios based c neat chipset \( means motherboard bus circuitry timings programmable advanced configuration menus let select system , dma , bus clock , wait states , command delays , etc \) baby sized fits mini tower , full sized case \( includes user 's guide copy bios reference manual \) 150 could rest system full size case 200 \( \? \) watt power supply 2 serial , 1 parallel , 1 game ports 20mb hard disk 1 2mb floppy disk keyboard video card \( choice vga \? \? \? \) 're interested , please give call system set house aloha , 're welcome come test drive random drivel keyboard brad davis , ncd inc , beaverton network computing devices pcx ncd com \( 503 \) 642 ncd pc \( office \) \( 503 \) 671
magnus acs ohio state edu \( kim richard man \) subject syquest 44m forsale article magnus 1993apr17 distribution usa organization ohio state university lines 5 nntp posting host bottom magnus acs ohio state edu 2 new 2 slightly used syquest 44m cartridge forsale asking 230 shipping included please reply e mail richard
quads uchicago edu \( stephen parker \) subject dos 5 0 reply midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 16 posting friend reply , sale micro soft dos v 5 0 micro soft dos v 5 0 release date 11 11 91 3 1 2 diskettes manual perfect best offer accepted \( pay \) contact randall randall clark byu edu \( 801 \) 222 \( home \) \( 801 \) 378 \( work \)
organization penn state university psuvm psu edu subject nintendo system power pad light gun games 80 lines 8 nintendo 8 bit system , power pad , light gun \( \) , 2 controllers games , duck hunt , power field , wings asking 80 please reply psuvm psu edu
kimd ecs rpi edu \( daniel kim \) subject wanted super 8mm projector sounds keywords wanted nntp posting host ecs rpi edu lines 11 looking super 8mm projector sounds anybody one sale , email name brand , condition projector , price sale kimd rpi edu \( must sound capability \) danny kimd rpi edu
midway ecn uoknor edu \( boon wee \) subject looking games pc distribution nntp posting host midway ecn uoknor edu organization engineering computer network , university oklahoma , norman , ok , usa keywords lines 9 interested games ibm pc grateful anymore information please email would like transaction thank !
jamal socrates umd edu \( jamal \) subject comics complete set ad buck rogers 25th century organization university maryland university college lines 5 complete set adventures buck rogers forsale make reasonable offer email back interested thanks jamal socrates umd edu
rfp jhuvm hcf jhu edu \( rebecca \) subject summer sublet available baltimore organization johns hopkins university , homewood academic computing lines 18 nntp posting host jhuvm hcf jhu edu large bedroom rent june 1 aug 15 row house near jhu \( homewood \) smokers pets share house 2 3 f law students f professional student wanted 2 bath , large kitchen remodeled last summer , floors , lr , dr , washer dryer beautiful details rent 325 1 4 utilities located bus lines info email rfp jhuvm
rfp jhuvm hcf jhu edu \( rebecca \) subject summer sublet wanted dc organization johns hopkins university , homewood academic computing lines 7 nntp posting host jhuvm hcf jhu edu wanted summer sublet nw dc , red metro line bedroom , share common areas others apartment room 400 less move memorial day weekend end august smokers email yalevm rfp jhuvm
subject cd rom mike damico cccbbs uucp \( mike damico \) reply mike damico cccbbs uucp \( mike damico \) distribution world organization cincinnati computer connection cincinnati , oh 513 752 1055 lines 2 ibm 001 cd rom drive drive make offer trade
artc orl mmc com \( art \) subject brand new ide floppy 2s 2p 1g card sale organization mmc lines 34 article bitzm 124 0 columbia dsu edu , bitzm columbia dsu edu \( michael bitz \) writes sale ide multi card brand new controls \( 2 \) ide hard drives \( 2 \) floppy drives \( 3 5 5 25 , high low density \( 2 \) serial ports \( 1 \) parallel port \( 1 \) game port one card , measuring 2 5 x 6 ! ! card brand new \( never opened , much less used \) 35 00 \( including shipping charges ! \) bitzm columbia dsu edu mike bitz internet bitzm columbia dsu edu research development bitzm dsuvax dsu edu dakota state university bitnet s93020 sdnet bitnet friend mine selling thing 25 00 ! ! ! \( new \)
cs brown edu \( hok chung tsang \) subject saturn 's pricing policy article cs 1993apr5 581 organization brown computer science dept lines 51 article shuksan ds boeing com , shuksan \( fred dickey \) writes carolinafan uiuc \( cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu \) wrote active defending saturn lately net would like state full opinion subject , rather reply others' points biggest problem people seem saturn dealers make 2k car think agree car priced competitors , , n't overpriced compared cars class n't understand point arguing whether dealer makes 2k \? never understood big deal dealer profits either thing figure people believe minimize dealer profit minimize total pocket expenses car may true cases , believe generally true bought saturn sl january '92 time , based studying car prices , decided comparable car priced cheaply saturn sure , maybe could talked price car saturn price , pocket expenses would n't different 's important much money left buy car reducing dealer profit thing saving money ! show reducing dealer profit saves money , 'll believe 's important experience reducing dealer profit necessarily save money fred say , bought saturn 13k , dealer profit 2k dealer profit 1000 , would paying 12k car n't saving money \? moreover , saturn really reduce dealer profit margin 1000 , cars even better deals say , price saturn already 1000 market average class cars , reduce dealer profit , would 2000 market average 1 \) attract even people buy saturns would save money 2 \) force competitors lower prices survive , saturn owners benefit lower dealer profit , even buyers cars pay less n't saving money \? 0 02 , doug
tedebear leland stanford edu \( theodore chen \) subject bmw 's worth price \? organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa lines 19 article 1993apr5 wdl loral com gwm spl1 spl loral com \( gary w mahan \) writes road track \( 2 88 \) 0 60 7 5s , 1 4 mile 15 7s \( road test annual 1993 \) 0 60 8 3s , 1 4 mile 16 2s numbers quoting , driven older model newer sure sounds like got ringer 325is drove definitely faster want quote numbers , aw shows 0 60 7 4 , 1 4 mile 15 9 quotes car driver 's figures 6 9 15 3 oh , btw , numbers n't know addition variable valve timing 1993 affects n't take word go drive teddy
tekgen bv tek com \( randy king \) subject headlights problem keywords headlights article tekgen organization tektronix inc , beaverton , lines 6 thanks responded posting problem headlights low beam problem loose wire connection fuse minority suggested thanks
tekgen bv tek com \( randy king \) subject left turn signal wo n't stop article tekgen organization tektronix inc , beaverton , lines 5 subject says 1984 pickup 's left turn signal stop turning cause stop \? mechanical problem steering wheel \? note truck market steering wheel \( gt grant \) installed
cco caltech edu \( alex \) subject volvo \? article gap organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 27 nntp posting host caltech edu wolfson sps mot com \( stephen wolfson \) writes article 1993mar31 ugle unit edb tih \( \) writes turns teenagers car gets old average volvo norway 18 years , sweden 20 years \) course someone pointed saab volvo running least 10 years ads , average milage significantly less us average , every volvo 've ever owned lasted far longer cars 1981 volvo 245 125 , 000 miles , still road 1983 volvo 242 195 , 000 miles , still road 1984 volvo 244 175 , 000 miles , still road 'll admit , dealer repair cost high mechanical aptitude , finding good mechanic , avoid breakdowns , make rest cheap \( sum total repairs car 195 , 000 miles 2 mufflers radiator whoa bad repair record \) cars driven fairly hard none head line cars going 30 mph first two spend lot operating life speedometer pegged reason 84 n't 120 mph speedo want know people hate volvos someone 745 turbo wagon blowing away road , \?
reb hprnd rose hp com \( ralph bean \) subject saturn pricing article 46l organization hewlett packard roseville site lines 12 nntp posting host hprnd rose hp com x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 8 mihir pramod shah \( mps1 cec1 wustl edu \) wrote robert j wade writes saturn retailers built \( like 2 city \) , medium large cities small handful saturn dealers sacramento two saturn dealerships mihir shah ralph bean hprnd rose hp com
scr siemens com \( tom \) subject radio toyota tercel keywords radio , tercel , replacement nntp posting host bugatti siemens com organization siemens corporate research , princeton \( \) , nj lines 19 i'm looking replacement radio tape player 1984 toyota tercel standard shelf unit fine , every place 've gone \( service merchandise , etc \) n't car model application book want take old radio , slide new , minimal time spent hooking adjusting dashboard put new unit similar car , 'd like hear brand , easy change , relevant information please answer via e mail thanks , tom tom e mail scr siemens com siemens corporate research phone 609 734 755 college road east fax 609 734 princeton , nj
carl f hoffman cup portal com subject 1993 infiniti g20 organization portal system \( tm \) lines 26 thinking getting infiniti g20 consumer reports ranked high many including highest reliability index compact cars galant second followed honda accord \) couple things though 1 \) looking around yet see anyone driving car see lots honda 's toyota 's 2 \) special deal get infinity g20 , fully loaded , dealer cost \( check numbers match \) releasing update mid 1993 version \( includes dual air bags \) want get rid old 1993 's guess question good deal \? also , anyone give feedback infiniti \? thanks , carl hoffman p cars test driven running mitsubishi galant , honda accord , toyota
boyle cactus org \( craig boyle \) subject basics maintenance article cactus 1993apr6 organization capital area central texas unix society , austin , tx lines 30 article 1993apr5 telxon mis telxon com joes telxon mis telxon com \( joe staudt \) writes article agate berkeley edu whistle cs berkeley edu \( hung \( hubert \) chang \) writes hi ! new car owner , would pretty much like know basics maintaining cars know following 1 oil changed every 3000 miles change oil filter , 2 check tires going high way fill tank make monthly , often know one tires slow leak tire leak fix others \? thank 4 check fluids regularly \( every month \? \) , check oil every time fill gas n't work well engine hot , accurate check oil engine cool , e gas station craig
dcl cso uiuc edu \( paul park \) subject integra gsr \( really cars \) article news organization university illinois urbana lines 21 article 1993apr5 nntpd lkg dec com kenyon enet dec com \( doug kenyon \( champion \) \) writes 's great cars handle , corner , accelerate integra , 've got ask one question cars moonroof sliding sunshade \? wimpy pop sunroofs power sliding roofs opaque moonroof opened air , closed let light , shaded nothing comes 've got know 's important \) doug '93 integra gs sentiments exactly
ns1 cc lehigh edu \( \) subject integra gsr article ns1 1993apr5 organization lehigh university lines 67 article wisdom bubble org , wisdom bubble org \( j cochran \) writes 'd like add beretta gtz car kick gs r butt , 's lot cheaper boot take one grain salt performance data shows poster proof \( friend blew one away last week want proof \? data acceleration handling motor trend \( apr '93 \) integra gs r beretta gtz 0 60 7 7 7 7 1 4 mile 16 0 88 1 16 1 87 8 l acc \( g 's \) 84 86 slalom 63 7 68 4 wrong n't look motor trend 's , slalom times , 67 9 , right along integra , car small 14 inch tires weather , mention integra rides alot better beretta times also vary , magazine magazine road track car driver gs r 6 8 8 0 road track also quarter mile times vary 15 4 16 1 ca n't tell exactly numbers furthermore , integra definately outrun beretta high end car driver road track gs r 136 141 mph , gets fast , beretta handle integra certainly keep acceleration beretta probably higher top speed due horsepower advantage \( 160 117 \( hp torque \) integra vs 180 160 beretta \) always believe exact numbers , n't drive gs r , see self , gs r low 117 , high gearing 8000 rpm make difference \( still would n't call torque though ! \) biggest advantage would price integra costs 19 , 111 \( tested motor trend \) , gtz costs 16 , 134 \( tested \) gtz also standard airbag brakes airbag available integra lower models abs considering save almost 3 , 000 dollars beretta , quad4 reliable engine , n't make sense get integra performance coupe , people trying make quad 4 reliable , yeah , 's definition reliable 's reliable , safe say integra engines general near perfect \( mention , hell alot smoother quieter balance shafts acura engine wins contest hands rev car day , everyday , 'll never blow hose , crack block , anything else \( speak ! \) i'm saying quad 4 bad engine , n't highlight reliability comparing acura engine integra costs alot , better investment since hold value considerably much better nice job sporty car practical time note n't flame gtz , gm quad 4 products nice car , puts respectable performance reasonable price mention , airbag start quoting figures one source , n't reliable read sources , drive cars n't driven gtz , driven gts , grand ams quad 4 engines , \( \)
gd com \( joseph st lucas \) subject dumbest automotive concepts time organization general dynamics corp distribution usa lines 10 n't list 's said , hopefully repeating horizontally mounted oil filters \( like ford \) , matter hard try , spill half quart bottom car change \? joe st lucas gd com standard disclaimers apply general dynamics space systems , san diego work something keep busy ultimate games
pyrnova mis pyramid com \( stowell \) subject hard change springs truck \? article pyramid reply pyrnova pyramid com pyramid com \( stowell \) organization pyramid technology corporation lines 5 article 1993apr3 michael apple com ems michael apple com \( e michael smith \) writes take peculiar tools remove rear springs ford truck \? nice big bumps
edwards world std com \( jonathan edwards \) subject jeep grand vs toyota 4 runner article world organization intranet , inc lines 18 article seven east sun com jfox hooksett east sun com writes reason limited two mentioned \? n't really point along suv spectrum mention price range explorer , trooper , blazer , , budget allows , land cruiser \? advice buy land cruiser \? local toyota dealer says get two year , want one get waiting list forget test drive even kicking tires rare , doubt much parts inventory hand jonathan edwards edwards intranet com intranet , inc 617 527 7020
zeus tamu edu \( , richard carl \) subject mgbs real world article zeus distribution world organization texas university , academic computing services lines 34 nntp posting host zeus tamu edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article 1993apr5 mks com , mike mks com \( mike brookbank \) writes sister mgb one last year produced \( 1978 \? 1979 \? \) good shape 've bugging years last year produced 1980 selling 've said sell car worthless maintains car may actually increasing value result limited availability one us right \? mgb still willing pay 6k 8k old mg \? lot market \? yes , still alot mgbs earlier cars \( pre 74 1 2 \) usually desirable due certain things went chrome bumpers \( ride height , generally power \) older cars slowly newer ones seem stable level moment 6 8k would require extremely good condition low miles car good shape regular maintenance kept , car last long time still plenty parts sources mgb great , fun little car keeping solely hopes going appreciate , tell sell worth waiting time would take appreciate real profitable level rick mg driver mga 1600 zeus tamu edu rebuild \( complete \) finished \? \? texas university keeper eternal mgb k symbol 'll registered soon , refuses die honest !
shearson com \( tim \) subject advice bmws winter driving reply shearson com organization lehman brothers , inc lines 26 past winter drove nyc , vt 6 7 times 1990 convertible \( talk poor reputation snow ! ! \) excellent set snow tires put 4 dec sure pretty severe weather conditions ever since 've 4 5 inch snow covered roads , cars paralyzed \( front wheel drive included \) concentrate rubber meets road rather cars conditions drive carefully , buy good snow tires , cars perform adequately less ideal conditions aside ca n't praise snows enough absolutely best snow tires ever driven live snow belt , favor get set next winter tim timothy j opinions expressed lehman brothers , inc construed amex tower , world financial center employer new york , n
silver uucp \( hi ho silver \) subject wax residue black organization wo n't find desk lines 17 sayeth joseph mazz andrew cmu edu car months ago liquid wax smears inadvertantly got wax black plastic 've tried repeatedly remove smears luck i'm verge replacing altogether \( 's nice car \) armor removes wax mazda 's black plastic bumpers mileage may vary given observation , one would well advised take care get \( , probably , similar son gun \) one 's paint know sometimes jaw clicks eat void prohibited seen boy \? lust never sleeps say hurl honey , i'm home silver uucp ! uunet becker ! ! silver
silver uucp \( hi ho silver \) subject miata , used mazda miata \? organization wo n't find desk lines 20 sayeth lbl gov \( steve \) anybody keeping track many \? far miata , , previa , sentra , maxima , altima , camry , , mention lexus , acura infiniti ! 're apparently including names , appear , derivatives real words english language \( e g acura , infiniti , maxima , altima \) , case missed ones integra , supra , , capri canada , add count , add \( canada \) forthcoming , given name north america \? others might include celica , corolla , paseo , tercel canada , add asu na know sometimes jaw clicks eat void prohibited seen boy \? lust never sleeps say hurl honey , i'm home silver uucp ! uunet becker ! ! silver
jfox hooksett east sun com \( john fox ir \) subject jeep grand vs toyota 4 runner organization sun microsystems , inc lines 54 distribution world reply jfox hooksett east sun com nntp posting host hooksett east sun com article world std com , edwards world std com \( jonathan edwards \) writes considering buying one two vehicles \( new \) want fun drive family vehicle go anything jeep popular , features wheel drive , 4 wheel anti lock , roomy passenger cabin \( limited cargo internal spare \) toyota aging design part time 4 wheel rear anti lock \( anti lock 4wd ! \) also inconvenient rear gate , mention awkward ingress passenger cabin reason limited two mentioned \? n't really point along suv spectrum mention price range explorer , trooper , blazer , , budget allows , land cruiser \? bear mind 90 suv 's purchased never venture road carefully weigh trade comfort road performance choosing one , realistically decide whether 'll actually make enough use road ability sacrifice \( \) road comfort john john
corp mot com \( andrew bernstein \) subject geico mechanical breakdown insurance organization motorola distribution usa nntp posting host 129 188 149 38 lines 36 article 244 noose ecn purdue edu rjwade rainbow ecn purdue edu \( robert j wade \) writes article 1993apr4 lds loral com lds loral com \( thad \) writes anyone experience geico 's extended warranty plan seems slightly less expensive normal dealer sponsored policy never buy extended warranties complete total ripoff period ! ! ! ! better taking money putting bank using money repairs many extended warranties never pay co payments etc many people actually put money bank keep sole use automotive repair maybe people hard time saving money n't want hassle worrying paying everything extended warranty worth people worth others , peace mind knowing wo n't many unexpected expenses enough drive lot , basic warranty little longer year many people make car payments well large repairs may work people andrew andrew bernstein motorola inc 's thing sanity , 1299 e road 's fact schaumburg , il 1077 dire corp mot com \( next mail ok \)
mike mks com \( mike brookbank \) subject mgbs real world organization mortice kern systems inc , waterloo , ontario , canada lines 14 sister mgb one last year produced \( 1978 \? 1979 \? \) good shape 've bugging years selling 've said sell car worthless maintains car may actually increasing value result limited availability one us right \? mgb still willing pay 6k 8k old mg \? lot market \? mike brookbank , mks 35 king st north mike mks com director , sales , mkt waterloo , ontario \( 519 \) 884 mortice kern systems inc mks canada , 2w9 fax \( 519 \) 884
wen king cs caltech edu \( wen king su \) subject male female mystery dumbest automotive concepts time organization california institute technology lines 16 nntp posting host neptune cs caltech edu article 1993apr1 28921 iscnvx lmsc lockheed com sharen iscnvx lmsc lockheed com \( sharen rund \) writes apparently 're woman husband hates auto door locks features , forgets besides families children , woman feels safer car locks easily \( addition watching around checking anyone 's near get car never park secluded spot , etc keys ready open door i'm purse looking thinking biological reason women ca n't put keys pants pockets like men \? two pockets back pants put keys one another many pockets even close securely everything much simpler ca n't women \? biological \( ie , enough room bigger bottom plus keys wallet \) way raised parents \?
subject convertibles cms udel edu \( \) reply cms udel edu organization u delaware , college marine studies nntp posting host cms udel edu lines 4 wondering someone could point somewhere could find list \( hopefully comparison \) convertibles days seems like making big comeback i'm sure look
ak296 yfn ysu edu \( john r daker \) subject toyota wagons organization st elizabeth hospital , youngstown , oh lines 9 reply ak296 yfn ysu edu \( john r daker \) nntp posting host yfn ysu edu anybody noticed toyota uncanny knack designing horrible ugly station wagons \? , , designers aesthetic sense \? dod 650 darkman significant problems face cannot solved level thinking created albert einstein eternal champion
ak296 yfn ysu edu \( john r daker \) subject dumbest automotive concepts time organization st elizabeth hospital , youngstown , oh lines 13 reply ak296 yfn ysu edu \( john r daker \) nntp posting host yfn ysu edu cup holders \( driving enough undertaking \) cellular phones mobile fax machines \( see \) vanity mirrors driver 's side ashtrays \( smokers seem think 's fine use road \) fake convertible roofs vinyl roofs gold trim dod 650 darkman significant problems face cannot solved level thinking created albert einstein eternal champion
wdh mkt csd harris com \( w david higgins \) subject '93 ford probe gt engine problems \? organization harris csd , ft lauderdale , fl lines 21 distribution world nntp posting host mkt csd harris com one local dealers used \( 7k miles \) '93 probe gt lot photocopy document taped window saying dealership bought car back previous owner engine noises , ford district rep car saying noises normal thought worth looking \( car seems otherwise clean \) mentioned co worker , proceeded tell horror story son 's '93 probe gt , several problems , ending engine noises said something heads , ford acknowledged noise , said working , n't cure yet son traded car \( checked car \) evidence problem v6 probe gt 's , extension 626 mx 6 anything \? 'd love consider buying gt \( i'm turning 40 time scheduled mid life crisis \) 'd hate find became proud owner lemon
kenyon enet dec com \( doug kenyon \( champion \) \) subject integra gsr \( really cars \) reply kenyon enet dec com \( doug kenyon \( champion \) \) organization digital equipment corporation lines 13 's great cars handle , corner , accelerate integra , 've got ask one question cars moonroof sliding sunshade \? wimpy pop sunroofs power sliding roofs opaque moonroof opened air , closed let light , shaded nothing comes 've got know 's important \) doug '93 integra gs
shou logos asd sgi com \( tom shou \) subject ford explorer 4wd need performance axle \? organization silicon graphics , inc lines 27 nntp posting host logos asd sgi com 're considering getting ford explorer 4wd following questions \( would go skiing \) 1 4wd , need performance axle \( limited slip axle \) purpose allow tires act independently tires different terrain 2 need terrain tires \( \) season \( \) good enough us lake tahoe \? thanks , tom tom shou silicon graphics shou asd sgi com 2011 n shoreline blvd 415 390 ms 8u 815 415 962 \( fax \) mountain view , ca 94043
ssd comm mot com \( \) subject lo jack organization motorola keywords n nntp posting host 145 1 172 11 lines 9 according representative saw recently , must installed authorized dealer , placed one \( roughly \) 30 spots car thanks , steve att com ! ! sure ,
ems michael apple com \( e michael smith \) subject hard change springs truck \? organization circle 'c' ranch , shores pacific , california lines 88 bottom line worked included article constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu \( james p callison \) writes article 1993apr3 michael apple com ems michael apple com \( e michael smith \) writes take peculiar tools remove rear springs ford truck \? 4x4 leaf springs front rear , big socket air wrench floor jack \( bottle jack \) home \? found needed smaller sockets undo shocks wd40 helped sockets needed metric \( exact fit \) able use sae sockets 13 16 15 16 rather close 21 fun canadian ford i'm undo u bolts put bottle jack axle raise bed frame take stress leaf spring undo end bolts bushings drop spring turn bottom leaf connect spring bolts sounds right n't undo end bolts bushings 2 u bolts side shock jacking frame \( put spare tire garage floor put wooden platform top get high enough raise frame one truck \) lifted spring free axel taking block gave enough room undo pin holding spring pack together spring pack held together nut top round head end wrench head vice grips worked fine soaked nut wd40 came right flipped bottom spring nightmare waiting happen , easy , though physically demanding , thing \? well , 's easier decent trigger job \) \( ok , well , maybe 's easy , 's terribly difficult \) i'm little sore today working 1 5 foot pipe real help torque spec u bolt nuts 150 200 ft lbs \( ! \) 1911 a1 n't kind torque spec get back spring pack squeeze pack two hands , hold bolt third , put nut fourth picking wrench vice grips fifth sixth hands used string tie pack together holding pin alignment could let go get nut , wrench , vice grips getting pin back lined lift block challenge discovered axel 1 \) tilted 2 \) rolled forward one drivers side , bottle jack front differential tilted back line enough pin head drop right hole passenger side , wheel rolling forward 1 2 inch get things line spent hour working getting pin head hole lift block distruction took break thought n't lined anymore \( since lined , n't move , something else must hmmm , axle longer constrained move hmmm , move back hmmm \) , much easier up' btw , ride , quite soft hoping least sits level e michael smith ems apple com , dream , begin genius , power magic ' responsible anyone else everything disclaimed
gwm spl1 spl loral com \( gary w mahan \) subject bmw 's worth price \? organization loral software productivity laboratory lines 18 sure sounds like got ringer 325is drove definitely faster want quote numbers , aw shows 0 60 7 4 , 1 4 mile 15 9 quotes car driver 's figures 6 9 15 3 oh , btw , numbers car driver rated 325is \( 1988 \) 7 2 0 60 , 1 4 15 2 \( 30k miles \) last time checked 8 automobile magazine rated new 325is 1 4 mile 16 2 gee , aint dickens ! sounds like need race 'll let newer version someone lend 1988 325is day 8 wont hurt , promise n't know addition variable valve timing 1993 affects n't take word go drive actually take word refuse test \( new 325is \) love bmw 's would probably want buy problem , income n't support
jmh hopper virginia edu \( jeffrey hoffmeister \) subject dumbest automotive concepts tim organization itc uva community access unix internet project lines 41 article armory centerline com jimf centerline com \( jim frost \) writes joes telxon mis telxon com \( joe staudt \) writes article armory centerline com jimf centerline com \( jim frost \) writes stuff deleted silly thing whole argument trunk releases \( i'm tempted say , 's bound counterexample \) operate car \( acc running \) thus ca n't easily pop trunk without starting car cars \? cars 've ever seen feature gm cars mazda , '80 honda , \( coming soon \) '93 probe cable operated releases '84 camaro electric hatch release \( thankfully \) independent key ignition \( exception rule mentioned first sentence \) probably said trunk releases n't encountered releases cable operated numerous gm several ford mercury cars 've encountered electrical releases , ones 've seen needed ignition degree operate camaro example noted , since 's 's big deal 've never run convertible cable operated trunk release 'd agree 100 environment cable always active electrical release would rather stupid jim frost jimf centerline com honda cable release locked ignition key key left someone unlock trunk enable cable release remember mothers '86 corvette electronic hatch release located drivers door , always active fact car real trunk makes security measure beign able dis able hatch release unnecessary
dduff col hp com \( dave duff \) subject us drive left \? article hp col organization hp colorado springs division lines 4 nntp posting host fajita19 cs itc hp com left hand steering wheel placement standard 20 's us driving right standard since standards came interestingly , chrysler begun building right hand drive cars export japan
dduff col hp com \( dave duff \) subject us drive left \? article hp col organization hp colorado springs division lines 2 nntp posting host fajita19 cs itc hp com 's first year manufacture 1928 , may indeed export special , left hand controls standard
tedebear leland stanford edu \( theodore chen \) subject 1993 infiniti g20 organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa lines 14 article cup portal com carl f hoffman cup portal com writes 2 \) special deal get infinity g20 , fully loaded , dealer cost \( check numbers match \) releasing update mid 1993 version \( includes dual air bags \) want get rid old 1993 's really dealer 's cost \? get dealer 's cost looking invoice \? may factory dealer incentives 'd check , since trouble believing dealer would sell car cost dealer invoice necessarily dealer cost teddy
ssd intel com \( charlie johnson \) subject lh car order delay nntp posting host alaska organization intel corporation lines 23 article 1993apr2 1 skcla monsanto com , mas skcla monsanto com writes read article 3 25 chicago tribune stating chrysler problems addressing demand 3 5l engine 's lh cars anyone post long waiting ordered car long told 'll wait \? \? thanks ! john mas e mail address mas skcla monsanto com ordered intrepid es jan 25th n't seen yet called couple weeks ago told 2 3 weeks 's probably time call charles johnson intel corporation supercomputer systems division ms 01 nw beaverton , phone \( 503 \) 629 email ssd intel com
uxa ecn bgu edu \( todd r \) subject dumbest automotive concepts time organization educational computing network lines 10 distribution world nntp posting host uxa ecn bgu edu well , young wo n't remember , used side vent front windows damn bean counter scrapped separate windows leading edge front doors outward rear edge worked like charm yeah , loved vent windows 82 escort \( hell , thing liked car \) one things 'd like see brought back anyone know 're option new escorts \?
leland stanford edu \( \) subject inflation car prices organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa distribution usa lines 5 anyone figures pointers references fast much car prices gone last decade \? thanks
napier uwaterloo ca \( donald wan \) subject testing organization university waterloo lines 3 hello testing
napier uwaterloo ca \( donald wan \) subject 80 svx oil change organization university waterloo lines 17 friend brought subaru svx recently drove couples times think great car , esp snow however took local subaru dealer oil change , bill came 80 dollars dealer told us change oil filter svx necessary disassemble metal cover engine took hour labour first , think ripped phone dealer toronto found charging roughly price svx owner problem \? oil change story true , engineer subaru looks pretty way , car looks great wan
intel com \( \) subject saab mailing list organization intel corporation lines 9 distribution usa nntp posting host intel com keywords saab could someone please tell could get onto saab mailing list specifically need address instructions thanks advance pete
dunnjj ucsu colorado edu \( dunn jonathan james \) subject dumbest automotive concepts time organization university colorado , boulder lines 24 ak296 yfn ysu edu \( john r daker \) writes cup holders \( driving enough undertaking \) good idea carry \( non alcoholic \) drinks without spilling someone hold cellular phones mobile fax machines \( see \) fax machines , yes cellular phones get hands free model \? fake convertible roofs vinyl roofs seemingly unique american luxury cars big three n't yet realized 1970s gold trim agree another display yuppie excess jon dunn
pp cbnewsl cb att com \( peter peng \) subject need info mazda 626 organization bell laboratories distribution na keywords 626 lines 15 test drove mazda 626 lx past weekend liked dealer offered 15k 1 \) good price \? 2 \) comments 626 general \? please use email thanks peter att ! ! peng
boyle cactus org \( craig boyle \) subject integra gsr article cactus 1993apr6 organization capital area central texas unix society , austin , tx lines 57 article 1993apr5 ns1 cc lehigh edu ns1 cc lehigh edu \( \) writes article wisdom bubble org , wisdom bubble org \( j cochran \) writes 'd like add beretta gtz car kick gs r butt , 's lot cheaper boot comparing gtz gsr apples oranges , somewhat like mustang 5 0 crx , different ways things ought appeal different buyers , e , n't think acura owner would seen dead chevy dealership vice versa stuff deleted weather , mention integra rides alot better integra seen comes season tires gtz come much bigger 16 wheels along integra , car small 14 inch tires times also vary , magazine magazine road track car driver gs r 6 8 8 0 road track c figures almost certainly bogus based hot prototype supplied acura mt figures plausible also quarter mile times vary 15 4 16 1 16 1 sounds reasonable , probably faster regular , beretta handle integra certainly keep acceleration beretta probably higher top speed due horsepower advantage \( 160 117 \( hp torque \) integra vs 180 160 beretta \) always believe exact numbers , n't drive gs r , see self , gs r low 117 , high gearing 8000 gsr gearing horrible day day driving needs 6 speed box modern car essentially 5th integra equals 4th gsr , regular speed rpm make difference \( still would n't call torque though ! \) considering save almost 3 , 000 dollars beretta , quad4 reliable engine , n't make sense get integra person knew gtz bought back gm lemon junk , quick fwd quad 4 reliable , yeah , 's definition reliable 's reliable , safe say integra engines general near perfect gsr owner know engine throw rod less 5k miles , rare screw honda gtz gsr flawed cars performance enthusiasts would take gtz cr purchase would gsr craig
boyle cactus org \( craig boyle \) subject mgbs real world article cactus 1993apr6 organization capital area central texas unix society , austin , tx lines 24 article 1993apr5 mks com mike mks com \( mike brookbank \) writes sister mgb one last year produced \( 1978 \? 1979 \? \) good shape 've bugging years selling 've said sell car worthless maintains car may actually increasing value result limited availability grass roots 3 93 long article mg b 's month far speculation concerned think waste time , especially later rubber models least desirable , 1962 original model reasons low value easy availability fact good car craig one us right \? mgb still willing pay 6k 8k old mg \? lot market \? mike brookbank , mks 35 king st north mike mks com director , sales , mkt waterloo , ontario \( 519 \) 884 mortice kern systems inc mks canada , 2w9 fax \( 519 \) 884
tom neumann tom neumann canrem com subject vw passat \? \( \) reply tom neumann tom neumann canrem com organization canada remote systems distribution rec lines 25 phx mcd mot com \( \) writes ky , recommend using super unleaded ky regular unleaded gasoline using regular unleaded friend mine ky jetta always used super unleaded thinks using ky however , believe advantages super unleaded cars 30000 ky guess companies sell , ky make profit ralph report consumer advocates ky past spoken oil companies passat vr6 designed run premium gasoline , however engine electronics retard timing harm wil done engine lower octane fuel likely , however , get somewhat power fuel mileage \( especially hot weather \) particular engine run premium tom neumann deluxe 1 25 350 sell canada remote systems toronto , ontario 416 629 7000 629 7044
tedebear leland stanford edu \( theodore chen \) subject toyota wagons organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa lines 15 article 1993apr5 pmafire inel gov russ pmafire inel gov \( russ brown \) writes article news ysu edu ak296 yfn ysu edu \( john r daker \) writes anybody noticed toyota uncanny knack designing horrible ugly station wagons \? , , designers aesthetic sense \? new camry wagon may even tercel \) toyota market ugly station wagons seeing new camry sedan , thought toyota would finally turn something nice looking new camry station wagon bears strong resemblance , weird looking one teddy
dunnjj ucsu colorado edu \( dunn jonathan james \) subject photo radar \( rec autos frequently asked questions \) keywords monthly posting organization university colorado , boulder lines 18 photo radar mailed tickets make sense speeding moving violation , committed operator , owner owner may rental agency , dealer , private party , government agency long owner reason expect operator driving illegally , owner cannot held responsible operator car may even driven without owner 's knowledge consent ca n't believe mailed ticket , driver identified , would stand court obviously lazy , cynical , , fascist way extort revenue , nothing public safety bk photo radar units look like \? also , major u cities use \? jon dunn
rmt6r faraday clas virginia edu \( roy matthew thigpen \) subject bang 13 , 000 16 , 000 organization university virginia lines 7 best bet dodge intrepid 24 valve 3 4 \? six gets 214 hp , hell lot room , great styling , abs , four wheel disk breaks lh cars automobile magazines automobile year award , quiet impressive
acad3 alaska edu \( \) subject alaska car show news software vax vms vnews 1 41 keywords car show , peninsula cruisers , kenai , alaska nntp posting host acad3 alaska edu organization r e b e l h e r lines 32 peninsula cruisers third annual car show \( types vehicles including pedal cars \) kenai mall , kenai , alaska may 14 , 15 , 16 , 1993 peninsula cruisers car club , kenai , ak \( 907 283 \) proceeds event benefit cooper landing ambulance corps general car show open types cars , trucks , motorcycles , factory modified , mild wild , antique , special interests , race , drag , , hi po , plain ugly \) fun event , intended gear head serious gear would like many possible , please contact us space availability \( first come first serve \) p town stay right next door kenai inn special rate 60 night \( single double occupancy \) call merit 907 283 6131 like information , contact addresses mel mckay cant drive 55 ! ! ! ! ! ! ! , gorgeous 90 remember 55 saves lives , 110 saves twice many \) old things define bitnet alaska young know define e mail acad3 alaska edu things
ssave ole cdac com \( devil reincarnate \) subject safety far see car \? organization cdac , wa distribution na lines 95 article 367 plato ds boeing com plato ds boeing com \( mark r \) writes ssave ole cdac com \( devil reincarnate \) writes surprised number people forget glasses driving people plain n't get eyes checked year someone lousy vision , see objects distance without glasses however , quite fuzzy may able make details certainly tell something wo n't argue much anything probably one think ca n't enough safety roads would gladly sacrifice \( call \) , someone trouble seeing danger earlier one saved life justifies lifetime dawn dusk eyes yet adjusted poor light drive black grey cars case driving two way one lane road , someone cars , coming opposite direction n't see lights vice versa 60mph , quite small reaction time course , macho think invincible react faster poor sod n't see might normal life ever worked reaction time previous post plenty , even 80 year old grandma , long speeds 60 mph range less driver going way faster , careful always , responsible driving actions pull pass crash someone \( whatever reason \) fault ca n't problem , may kill guy agree would fault , license revoked , , might even go gas chamber fact still remains guy dead someone died put lights see damn thing , n't driving lights fail , fallen trees rocks n't lights , etc maintain headlight strength ratio probability fallen trees rocks roads oncoming traffic low even considered difference also working know could happen , might happen running lights necessary motorists drive around 60mph may good idea force running headlights turn windshield wipers , people stupid crash one idiots , fight court show \( even prove \) curiosity , much gas milage loose put lights \? much reduce life head lamps \? cost anyway \? mileage certainly reduced , small amount \( probably 110 watts head running lights \) extra 1 7 horsepower must made engine may cost around two gallons year times 200 million cars , 's lot gas compared number gallons gas consumed 200 million cars , miniscule ! whatever 'tis pity share roads person concerned safety ssave ole cdac com lamp life measured hours normally drive half daylight half night , lamps replaced twice often cost halogen lamps cost individual trivial issue n't like cars headlights cause n't need constantly see headlights vehicle behind n't need see headlights every gosh darn car mile road lit cars make non illuminated things less visible \( like bikes \) hopefully 're going mandate 's people bikes stream taillights tolerable orange front running lights certainly sufficient people see \( look \) n't nearly much full power headlights mark
ssave ole cdac com \( devil reincarnate \) subject quick question keywords removing panels organization cdac , wa lines 9 take driver side door panel inside '87 honda prelude \? speaker went scratchy , want access pins see one press button rest snug fit ssave ole cdac com
uucp \( laurie mann \) subject clothing \( male female mystery dumbest automotive \) lines 41 article gap caltech edu , wen king cs caltech edu \( wen king su \) writes thinking biological reason women ca n't put keys pants pockets like men \? two pockets back pants put keys one another many pockets even close securely everything much simpler ca n't women \? biological \( ie , enough room bigger bottom plus keys wallet \) way raised parents \? oh ! 's biology , 's clothing design women 's clothing generally designed non functional possible 's last five years could buy women 's pants pockets deep enough carry anything previously , deep pockets virtually unknown women 's clothing generally better pockets , dresses , fancy dresses , still pretty hopeless often hand driver 's license husband 're dressed go somewhere , n't purse women consistently bought functional clothing , manufacturers refuse make functional women 's clothing , think manufacturers would tend bow market pressures 's interesting chapter susan 's described happened last time clothing manufacturers ignored need functional women 's clothing industry lost millions woman would rather buy men 's clothing decent pockets long legs high women 's clothing without uucp \( internet \) laurie mann \( genie \) claiming sex education leads irresponsible sex like claiming driver education leads car accidents
hhtra usho0b hou281 chevron com \( haddock \) subject looking buy dodge stealth , questions keywords questions organization chevron lines 66 article 1993apr2 cactus org , boyle cactus org \( craig boyle \) writes article 1993apr1 usho72 hou281 chevron com hhtra usho72 hou281 chevron com \( haddock \) writes found mopar spec sheet weekend model wgt hp stealth 164 stealth es 222 stealth rt 222 stealth rt tt 300 okay , 'll take word giving every chance retract figures widely known mustang rated 205 222 205 17 advantage mustang seems 1993 mustang 5 0 rated 205 hp ford changed testing procedures older procedures , still rates closer 225 hp means mustang 3 hp still n't posted weight figures mustang big threat ko 'd civic , c yeah , sure , wet dreams 's probably got 11 2 second 0 60 stealth 'll check c 's 5 91 issue strange claim go ahead check asshole , 'll realize idiot checking data car drive , may 91 stealth es , 222hp , automatic 3 posts 've harping may 1991 issue car driver without posting numbers \? prove right ai n't got guts admit \? yeah , thought sentra se r really alot quicker 222hp fwd sports car close 9k sentra e go look numbers c report please , i'm going play game way , sentra 's slow ! took test drive took 21 7 go 0 50 ! , even hyundai excel blows doors 12 yr old knows ! race 'll kick butt ! blah , blah , blah let 's see yep , sounds like oh man , got ! 's ! would buy fwd automatic , costs 20k capable 15 8 would plainly se r \? dunno , \? would someone pick dodge stealth rt nissan sentra \? takes one look travis
zowie daedalus stanford edu \( craig powderkeg deforest \) subject , 10w40 , 20w50 article daedalus zowie organization stanford center space science astrophysics lines 37 nntp posting host daedalus stanford edu reply brad thone 's message fri , 02 apr 93 21 41 53 cst article foo brad thone c09615bt wuvmd writes well , difference n't happen sae manual handy , oil viscosity general decreases temperature sae numbers based curve oils used , running \( say \) viscosity room temperature 90 weight 0c , \( say \) room temperature 5 weight , typical 40 weight oil oils designed operation temperatures weight specification oils designed operation exceedingly cold temperatures tacked end , winter cold place , 'd stick 10w car winter 40 summer , approximate appropriate viscosity throughout year modern multi viscosity oils change viscosity much less temperature result , viscosity graphs cross several curves multi vis specification pegs curve two temperatures , operating temperature one \( though ca n't remember numbers \) event , weights indicate significant difference remember engine temperature regulated \( thermostat radiator air \) time unless something weight oil better oil , old , oil thin oil wo n't \( general \) lubricate well temperature , thicker oil \( like 20w50 \) lubricate better temperature , well startup , engine wear occurs 're planning making long drives , 20w50 probably fine \( esp summer \) 10w40 car 're making short drives , stick 10w40 drink soap ! dilute dilute ! ok !
boyle cactus org \( craig boyle \) subject looking buy dodge stealth , questions keywords questions article cactus 1993apr6 organization capital area central texas unix society , austin , tx lines 88 article 1993apr5 usho0b hou281 chevron com hhtra usho0b hou281 chevron com \( haddock \) writes article 1993apr2 cactus org , boyle cactus org \( craig boyle \) writes article 1993apr1 usho72 hou281 chevron com hhtra usho72 hou281 chevron com \( haddock \) writes found mopar spec sheet weekend model wgt hp stealth 164 stealth es 222 stealth rt 222 stealth rt tt 300 okay , 'll take word numbers stating past 5 10 messages really insisted right , clue car weighed n't check first told figures implausible \? giving every chance retract figures widely known mustang rated 205 222 205 17 advantage mustang seems 1993 mustang 5 0 rated 205 hp ford changed testing procedures older procedures , still rates closer 225 hp means mustang 3 hp 'd like hear better come conclusion data big threat ko 'd civic , c yeah , sure , wet dreams 's probably got , sorry wrong quoted del sol 0 60 8 1 according c interestingly , stealth es , faster rt 8 5 seconds according c kind embarassing n't \? n't check figures posting \? makes look stupid caught twice figures 11 2 second 0 60 stealth 'll check c 's 5 91 issue strange claim really checked go ahead check asshole , 'll realize idiot checking data car drive , may 91 stealth es , 222hp , automatic 3 posts 've harping may 1991 issue car driver 2 without posting numbers \? prove right ai n't got guts admit \? yeah , thought insist , gave every chance retract , dodge stealth es auto 8 5 16 4 wonder could n't find \? realize 9k sentra \( c \) run 16 7 , sentra se r saturn run 15 's \? n't think kind strange 222hp sports car easily beaten mustang 5 0 , weights \( according numbers \) , less power much quicker \? care explain n't abusive , try come rational explanation 222hp went , mystery sentra se r really alot quicker 222hp fwd sports car close 9k sentra e go look numbers c report please , i'm going play game way , sentra 's slow ! took test drive took 21 7 go 0 50 ! , even hyundai excel blows doors guess drove 5 speed could n't shift craig
hico2 com \( kris \) subject storing car long term keywords tires cars storage article hico2 reply hico2 com organization high country software lines 16 bought car defunct engine , use parts old still running version car car bought good tires anything particular store defunct car long term \? 'd hate parts go bad someone told 's bad tires move car true \? need props take weight tires \? best reply mail , getting spotty news delivery kris 908 842 hico2 ! hico2 com
daniel u holbrook dh3q andrew cmu edu subject us drive left \? organization carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 50 93n usenet ins cwru edu nntp posting host po3 andrew cmu edu reply 93n usenet ins cwru edu reason ask went classic car meet uk , saw nice old de , 1920 's vintage 'd guess , wooden artillery type wheels , etc , right hand drive ca n't believe produced cars uk well sweden australia , lord knows wherever else used drive wrong side road , export market might larger uk i'm guessing , believe probably drove mostly cattle trails wagon ruts fairly sure placement steering wheel pretty much arbitrary company time 1920s , active good roads movement , origins actually bicycle , picked steam teens \( witness highway association , 1912 , us highway support act \( real name something different \) 1916 first pledged federal aid states counties build decent roads also , experience widespread use trucks domestic transport ww 1 convinced government good crucial national defense anyway , 20s plenty good roads , least around urban areas , rapidly expanding countryside era , , first auto touring fad , motel , auto camp ground , etc two good books subject spring mind warren america road \( title may exact author \) another called devil wagon god 's country author forget also , john 's john bell rae 's auto histories placement steering wheel arbitrary , early teens virtually american cars wheel left early days , cars wheel left , right , even middle , well sometimes instead wheel standardized fairly early , though n't know dan dh3q andrew cmu edu carnegie mellon university applied history world history strides catastrophe catastrophe , whether comprehend prove oswald spengler
steve green csiro au \( steve green \) subject subaru liberty owners \? article toyland steve green organization branch , csiro , australia lines 16 nntp posting host toyland csiro au 've subaru liberty 4wd station wagon 8 months saying i'm happy would understatement ! great well built , handles beautifully , plenty power 've trip mountains narrow , windy dirt road , often parts subaru ease havent much fun driving car years ! owners \? steve green hey rocky , watch pull rabbit hat ! comms group trick never works branch nothin' sleeve presto ! csiro australia doubt gotta get another hat
qazi csd4 csd uwm edu \( aamir hafeez qazi \) subject difference lexus 300 series \? article uwm reply qazi csd4 csd uwm edu organization university wisconsin milwaukee lines 18 nntp posting host 129 89 7 4 originator qazi csd4 csd uwm edu article 1993apr5 ucsu colorado edu , lorenzo rintintin colorado edu \( eric lorenzo \) difference , es300 gs300 \? seems lexus ca n't stop popping new models let put like similarity three models 300 , 3 liter engine displacement actually , sc300 \( coupe \) gs300 \( funky looking new sedan \) share 3 0 liter inline six , es300 \( popular small sedan \) uses 3 0 v6 shared camry sc300 luxury sports coupe , gs300 new luxury sedan , es300 base executive sedan three look completely different aamir qazi aamir qazi qazi csd4 csd uwm edu care \? 'd rather watch drying paint
cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu \( carolinafan uiuc \) subject bang 13 , 000 16 , 000 article news organization university illinois urbana lines 17 rmt6r faraday clas virginia edu \( roy matthew thigpen \) writes best bet dodge intrepid 24 valve 3 4 \? six gets 214 hp , hell lot room , great styling , abs , four wheel disk breaks lh cars automobile magazines automobile year award , quiet impressive lh 16k , though \? chintan amin university illinois urbana champaign mail llama uiuc edu human goodness moral called insane peart cinderella man
cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu \( carolinafan uiuc \) subject saturn 's pricing policy article news organization university illinois urbana lines 75 cs brown edu \( hok chung tsang \) writes article shuksan ds boeing com , shuksan \( fred dickey \) writes carolinafan uiuc \( cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu \) wrote biggest problem people seem saturn dealers make 2k car think agree car priced competitors , , n't overpriced compared cars class n't understand point arguing whether dealer makes 2k \? never understood big deal dealer profits either thing figure people believe minimize dealer profit minimize total pocket expenses car may true cases , believe generally true bought saturn sl january '92 time , based studying car prices , decided comparable car priced cheaply saturn sure , maybe could talked price car saturn price , pocket expenses would n't different 's important much money left buy car reducing dealer profit thing saving money ! show reducing dealer profit saves money , 'll believe 's important experience reducing dealer profit necessarily save money fred say , bought saturn 13k , dealer profit 2k dealer profit 1000 , would paying 12k car n't saving money \? yes point prices saturn may well selling car intended giving dealer 2000 profit , since honda 500 profit expensive , may well worth buy saturn moreover , saturn really reduce dealer profit margin 1000 , cars even better deals say , price saturn already 1000 market average class cars , reduce dealer profit , would 2000 market average 1 \) attract even people buy saturns would save money 2 \) force competitors lower prices survive , saturn owners benefit lower dealer profit , even buyers cars pay less necessarily seems saturn salesdroids , n't make commision , whereas counterparts dealerships generally , make per hour whatever means saturn n't give profit employees commision , taken per car profits pass along less salesmen women n't saving money \? maybe maybe depends accounting practices 'd rather pay dealer service n't cut corners contain costs 0 02 , doug 2 100 '87 \( carolina \) blue honda civic dx chintan amin university illinois urbana champaign mail llama uiuc edu human goodness moral called insane peart cinderella man
rgc3679 bcstec ca boeing com \( robert g carpenter \) subject thinking buying intrepid good bad idea \? organization boeing computer services lines 7 i'm thinking buying new dodge intrepid anyone experiences 'd like share \? thanks bobc
zowie daedalus stanford edu \( craig powderkeg deforest \) subject quick question organization stanford center space science astrophysics lines 8 nntp posting host daedalus stanford edu reply ssave ole cdac com 's message mon , 5 apr 1993 21 14 57 gmt article foo ssave ole cdac com \( devil reincarnate \) writes take driver side door panel inside '87 honda prelude \? speaker went scratchy , want access pins posting tripe rec autos vw \? drink soap ! dilute dilute ! ok !
callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu \( james p callison \) subject spark plug question \? distribution na nntp posting host uokmax ecn uoknor edu organization engineering computer network , university oklahoma , norman , ok , usa lines 21 article cwis cwis unomaha edu \( brian golden \) writes nice thing real platinum plugs n't change often \( think like 50 , 000 miles ! ! \) might cost 10 , would save long run bird sc 's manual says replace platinum plugs every 60 , wal mart platinum plugs 2 00 real platinum plugs \? \( bosch '80 dad 'em '84 bronco note keyword n't last long \( much less 50 , \) replaced agree n't greatest \) james james p callison microcomputer coordinator , u oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i'm engineer , play one work forecast calls thunder '89 bird sc 's hell thing , killing man take away 's ever gonna munny , unforgiven
boyle cactus org \( craig boyle \) subject us drive left \? article cactus 1993apr6 organization capital area central texas unix society , austin , tx lines 14 article andrew cmu edu daniel u holbrook dh3q andrew cmu edu writes stuff 's deleted well sweden australia , lord knows wherever else used drive still drive wrong side road believe sweden changed 1968 way heard swapped traffic signs around one sunday wrong side road , export market might larger uk craig
cunixa cc columbia edu \( \) subject quick question article news 1993apr6 organization columbia university lines 62 nntp posting host cunixa cc columbia edu newsgroups rec autos , rec autos vw subject quick question summary expires sender reply cunixa cc columbia edu \( \) followup distribution organization columbia university keywords removing panels article 1993apr5 ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com \( devil reincarnate \) writes take driver side door panel inside '87 honda prelude \? speaker went scratchy , want access pins see one press button rest snug fit ssave ole cdac com quick question posting vw newsgroup \? newsgroups rec autos , rec autos vw subject quick question summary distribution world organization columbia university keywords newsgroups rec autos , rec autos vw newsgroups rec autos , rec autos vw subject quick question summary expires references 1993apr5 ole cdac com sender reply cunixa cc columbia edu \( \) followup distribution organization columbia university keywords removing panels article 1993apr5 ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com \( devil reincarnate \) writes take driver side door panel inside '87 honda prelude \? speaker went scratchy , want access pins see one press button rest snug fit ssave ole cdac com quick question posting vw newsgroup \? , jr columbia edu weaklings , cower fear , ruler , land , sea air immense , erect stand tall , i'm nuclear murderer polaris ! , rust peace
mps1 cec1 wustl edu \( mihir pramod shah \) subject saturn puzzled pricing article wuecl 1993apr6 distribution na organization washington university , st louis mo lines 43 nntp posting host cec1 article 1993apr1 cbfsb cb att com cbnewsf cb att com \( yung kao hsu \) writes person started subject , question really dealer profit amount money type car 've settled new 92 subaru wagon similar amount money saturn dealer asked sw1 ok , know 's 92 model , think got better car \( though adjust initial idea getting new car \) today , conversion friend , learned rejected saturn ford little bit sl2 may wrong , loaded beats saturn sl2 agree fully loaded sl2 would come close price lower end ford taurus fully loaded taurus , hand , would still substantially expensive even sl2 fully loaded sl2 would run somewhere around 17 , 000 , fully loaded taurus lx would somewhere around 22 , 000 23 , 000 range base taurus \( gl believe \) might start around 15 , 000 course taurus sho push 30 , 000 really try , totally different car mainstream taurus sedan statement entirely faulty , little inaccurate ca n't see saturn better value puzzled oh , spend much time getting deals better informed advantages well , 's ok least 're bitching dealer profits like netters seem rationally picked car best aging design replaced impreza wagon , probably got good deal one last ones , may wrong yung kao hsu mihir shah mps1 cec1 wustl edu
pp cbnewsl cb att com \( peter peng \) subject 1990 integra ls sale organization bell laboratories distribution nj keywords sale integra lines 15 1990 integra ls sale 5 speed , sunroof , rear , new tires 59 7k miles best offer call 908 949 908 938 4101 email att ! ! peng
lorenzo rintintin colorado edu \( eric lorenzo \) subject integra gsr nntp posting host rintintin colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 25 article 1993apr5 ns1 cc lehigh edu ns1 cc lehigh edu \( \) writes n't look motor trend 's , slalom times , 67 9 , right along integra , car small 14 inch tires weather , mention integra rides alot better beretta gs came weather tires took right front bumper sliding packed snow \( ice \) , learned fact immediately bought definately weather 4 walk everyday even michelin dealer bought new tires said made different rubber gets really hard slick weather gets near said 'd try sell tires winter texas colorado thanks , eric inactive lifestyle eric j lorenzo violates genetic warranty lorenzo rintintin colorado edu excercise also spot ucsu fully human keith
doc cs nyu edu \( tim tsai \) subject awd bmw lines 11 x received usenet pa dec com id mon , 5 apr 93 23 06 31 0700 x received inet gw 2 pa dec com id mon , 5 apr 93 23 06 30 0700 x received doc cs nyu edu \( 5 61 1 34 \) id tue , 6 apr 93 02 07 00 0400 x rec autos usenet x mailer elm version 2 3 truth rumor awd 3 series '94 \? believe info published either popular science autoweek couple months ago also , friend told bmw used make awd 325 called 'd appreciate info car thanks thanks tim
mps1 cec1 wustl edu \( mihir pramod shah \) subject saturn performance \( saturn puzzled pricing nntp posting host cec1 organization washington university , st louis mo distribution na lines 27 article andrew cmu edu jason roth andrew cmu edu writes ca n't imagine civic saturn owners egos stop light races generates much excitement two challenging game one one basketball ! ! sl2 0 60 8 5 note closer 968 paseo storm \( pseudo sporty cars \) 's ridiculous comparison , know , point saturns \( high end , matter \) accelerate fine , fact better muscle cars 60s 300 hp great , tied 2 tons , n't go quick saturns , hand , use 125 hp tied 2400 lbs short gearing move quickly line anyway 0 60 time consistent car magazines reports , saw pbs show clock 5 speed sl2 7 9 seconds i'm sure sl2 owners lucky get speed , 7 9 seconds still astonishingly fast small 4 door new civic ex runs 8 2 seconds 0 60 , i'm mistaken cars class lucky 9 second range mihir shah
eliot stalfos engr washington edu \( eliot \) subject awd bmw organization clearer blir lines 5 nntp posting host 192 42 145 4 europe buy , computer controlled diffs rather horrid viscous coupled ones outgoing eliot
celsiustech se \( kent \) subject us drive left \? organization celsiustech ab lines 44 article 1993apr6 cactus org boyle cactus org \( craig boyle \) writes deleted lines well sweden australia , lord knows wherever else used drive still drive wrong side road believe sweden changed 1968 way heard swapped traffic signs around one sunday live sweden remember day perfectly well changed side 1967 09 03 \( 03 sep 1967 \) n't remeber exactly time night \( cities like stockholm gothenburg forbidden , busses taxis , whole weekend \) day sunday everything prepared day told follow yellow lines road white one matters signs arrows prepared label torn night reveal new right mode arrow year iceland also changed cars h day \( h swedish stands 'right' \) practically cars already steering wheels left side even imported cars uk wheel 'the right last cars wheels right side \) uses left side japan \( think \) new south africa \? btw left side right side knights meet left fight \) deleted lines kent celsiustech systems ! thinking great 175 88 sweden ! oliver try celsiustech se ! company sold former name
boyle bnr \( ian boyle \) subject volvo \? organization bnr europe ltd lines 20 distribution world reply boyle bnr nntp posting host bnr co uk cars driven fairly hard none head line cars going 30 mph first two spend lot operating life speedometer pegged reason 84 n't 120 mph speedo want know people hate volvos someone 745 turbo wagon blowing away road , \? 740 turbo uk good useful blowing away vw , though believe beetle corners better say without doubt never blown away volvo , ever 've blocked car parks though shit head volvo owners 'only thought 'd happen owners makes car sure long small shit box volvos last damn long worst car ever drove hired 340 power , handling ride reminiscent something 50s , without character 340 ceased production couple years back 've passenger big volvos , enough ought go test drive offer neat gifts
kocrsv01 delcoelect com \( john \) subject anti theft devices organization delco electronics corp lines 36 originator article ph gmr com , gmr com \( bob \) writes article kocrsv01 delcoelect com , kocrsv01 delcoelect com \( john \) writes someone writes btw , somebody stole front grille beat 1983 nissan sentra weeks ago ! could n't believe i'm driving around without years ago , brother lived rough area left nova parked street front house days one day went move back driveway , would n't start seems fool needed nova gas tank fool found one brothers car engines vw beatles quite easy remove without entering car even opening engine compartment would like find car would n't start engine stolen \? would feel hell lot poorer gas tank 50 engine ! seriously though , brother , darrell , left vw street someone stole radiator try finding vw radiator \) dare ! jd john delco electronics general motors kocrsv01 delcoelect com opinions expressed mine necessarily de 's gm 's
c23st kocrsv01 delcoelect com \( spiros triantafyllopoulos \) subject bullet proof luxury sedans distribution usa organization delco electronics corp lines 51 article senator bedfellow mit edu mtl mit edu \( charles h hsu \) writes interested find domestic car manufacturer \( especially gm ford \) produces bullet proof luxury sedans understand caddy working one , double battery , super high perf engine , gauges , bit , etc , lots communication equipment , works color selection limited though problem guy 1600 penn avenue get \( pres clinton \) \( last time lincoln , time caddy \) wondering called bullet proof \( perhaps reinforced windows , special materials body engine etc \) luxury car lincoln cadillac models readily available public knowledge know gm conversion work things like hot \( e chevy sold middle east \) things like always done third parties , manufacturer maybe need buy specific package everything , perhaps police cruiser package caprice crown vic start go special dealership obtain cars \? would really like hear anyone experience bullet proof cars along armored sts punk pulls nowhere rpg \( rocket propelled grenade \) windshield stopped \) n't think many people net need cars check local armored service companies security bodyguard places 'd know best think average luxury car dealer coronary told 'll take blue caprice , options \( fuzzy dice \) , \( power everything \) , \( armor \) information regarding dealers market shops bullet proof lincoln 's cadillac 's greatly appreciated may email mtl mit edu post message newsgroup believe netters might interested well btw , information mercedes benz , bmw , lexus , infiniti luxury sedans needed well believe article conversion process appeared car press within last months spiros spiros triantafyllopoulos c23st kocrsv01 delcoelect com software technology , delco electronics \( 317 \) 451 0815 gm hughes electronics , kokomo , 46904 different kind disclaimer
c23st kocrsv01 delcoelect com \( spiros triantafyllopoulos \) subject top 10 reasons love cr \( humor impaired \) distribution na organization delco electronics corp lines 21 article constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu \( james p callison \) writes six years , nearing end design life vehicle , everything breaking point , driving habits make difference actual reliability vehicle , data becomes unreliable drawing conclusions , bad driving habits damage car couple months , 6 years case , everyone would driving fleet rental considering things \( factors stat terms \) , city vs highway driving ratios , owner vs dealer service , extreme weather environment , adherence \( sp \? \) maintenance schedules , whether car ever accident , number different drivers car family , whether car garaged , warmed , spiros spiros triantafyllopoulos c23st kocrsv01 delcoelect com software technology , delco electronics \( 317 \) 451 0815 gm hughes electronics , kokomo , 46904 different kind disclaimer
tobias oasys dt navy mil \( steve tobias \) subject bang 13 , 000 16 , 000 reply tobias oasys dt navy mil \( steve tobias \) distribution na organization carderock division , nswc , bethesda , md lines 14 rec autos , cpkjp vm cc latech edu \( kevin parker \) writes 'd like get feedback car bang buck 13000 16 , 000 price range i'm looking car enough civility driven every day , even long trips , hit gas , want feel acceleration handling important also , reliability pretty low maintenance costs stylish appearance nice , n't want car show much go even though many imports fast , n't really want turbo , never cared song sung four 'd prefer v6 v8 engine suggestions , kevin parker 's one car really fits needs 's spelled 5 0 liter mustang
finnegan invader navo navy mil \( kenneth finnegan \) subject , 10w40 , 20w50 article cs 1993apr6 reply finnegan navo navy mil organization grumman data systems lines 9 nntp posting host nntpd invader navo navy mil additional data point , run castrol 20w50 exclusively following cars 75 rabbit , 78 scirocco , 76 rabbit , 78 bus , 70 beetle , 76 bus , 86 jetta gli 've never oil related problem disclaimer gets mighty hot kenneth finnegan navo navy mil
jimf centerline com \( jim frost \) subject dumbest automotive concepts time article armory organization centerline software , inc lines 14 nntp posting host 140 239 3 202 dunnjj ucsu colorado edu \( dunn jonathan james \) writes ak296 yfn ysu edu \( john r daker \) writes cup holders \( driving enough undertaking \) good idea carry \( non alcoholic \) drinks without spilling someone hold agree six hour long stretches behind wheel really make thirsty , especially something caffeine consider failing car cup holder anywhere put cup holder jim frost jimf centerline com
cc lut fi \( jarmo \) subject volvo \? nntp posting host cc lut fi organization university technology , finland lines 64 boyle bnr \( ian boyle \) writes 740 turbo uk good useful blowing away vw , though believe beetle corners better say without doubt never blown away volvo , ever 've blocked car parks though shit head volvo owners 'only thought 'd happen owners makes car sure long small shit box volvos last damn long worst car ever drove hired 340 power , handling ride reminiscent something 50s , without character 340 ceased production couple years back 've passenger big volvos , enough ought go test drive offer neat gifts oh , well admit disgusting feature volvo 's marketing looks like volvo uses something like dare risk family car \? attitude , quite annoying long run volvo produced new good car , volvo 850 front drive , 2 4 l 20 valves motor , completely new chassis etc even british magazine car liked \( believe , quite much volvo \) american magazine road track said uncle 's car , positive sense case , 'd still like 960 estate strong , tank like chassis , 3 0l inline six , rear drive \) \) btw , car drivers blocked land rover jaguar drivers \) \) \) \) \? mean drive \? cheapo japanese \( toyota \) course , money car \( like bmw , merc , jaguar , saab 9000 , volvo 850 \( 960 \) , etc \) money , would bad problems deciding one buy \) \) \)
etxmst sta ericsson se \( markus strobl 98121 \) subject photo radar \( rec autos frequently nntp posting host st83 ericsson se reply etxmst sta ericsson se organization ericsson telecom ab lines 50 article viewlogic com , brad buck viewlogic com \( bradford kellogg \) writes article cabot balltown cma com , welty cabot balltown cma com \( richard welty \) writes q ka band radar \? used \? radar detector able handle \? ka band recently made available fcc use us called photo radar installations installations , low powered beam aimed across road 45 degree angle direction traffic , picture taken vehicles radar unit determines violation speed limit tickets mailed owner vehicle low power 45 degree angle , many people believe radar detector cannot give reasonable warning ka band radar unit , although manufacturers radar detectors added capability anyway number locales photo radar use limited , question legality units best advice learn photo radar units look like , keep track used \( else , n't speed \) photo radar mailed tickets make sense speeding moving violation , committed operator , owner owner may rental agency , dealer , private party , government agency long owner reason expect operator driving illegally , owner cannot held responsible operator car may even driven without owner 's knowledge consent ca n't believe mailed ticket , driver identified , would stand court obviously lazy , cynical , , fascist way extort revenue , nothing public safety bk f g photo radar things sweden ago lot , lot sabotage \( spray touch paint lot good \) eventually drop idea lot court cases owner car could prove n't drive time speeding especially recall case eventually proved car thief stolen car made false plates , , chose license number identical car , photo seemed correct photo radar sucks , every way look ! markus
eric sad hp com \( eric lucas \) subject clifford delta car alarm \? organization hp sonoma county \( srsd mwtd mid \) x newsreader tin version 1 1 4 pl6 lines 9 found great deal clifford delta car alarm , 450 installed comes glass break sensor , motion detector , shock detector anyone one alarms \? good \? looks , best market price 's also sale , 's another reason get think 'll saving almost 200 opinions \? eric lucas
sang yoon oh andrew cmu edu subject jeep grand vs toyota 4 runner organization junior , mechanical engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 29 world std com nntp posting host po2 andrew cmu edu reply world std com article seven east sun com jfox hooksett east sun com writes reason limited two mentioned \? n't really point along suv spectrum mention price range explorer , trooper , blazer , , budget allows , land cruiser \? advice buy land cruiser \? local toyota dealer says get two year , want one get waiting list forget test drive even kicking tires rare , doubt much parts inventory hand land simply nice shit load power room fully stocked , cost 40 , 000 think worth money problem get accident \( n't usually break unless forget get oil change 30000 miles something stupid like \) , body parts parts hard locate parts priced also one friend accident past snow storm still waiting front bumper passenger side fender well , test drive land cruiser , suv look like toys one magazine writer called land bruiser 40 , 000 spare suv , get land cruiser forget lange rover sang
jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu \( john f nielsen \) subject integra gsr article magnus 1993apr6 organization ohio state university lines 17 nntp posting host photon magnus acs ohio state edu article 1993apr6 cactus org boyle cactus org \( craig boyle \) writes miles , rare screw honda gtz gsr flawed cars performance enthusiasts would take gtz cr purchase would gsr cr purchase would ford probe gt john john nielsen magnus consultant baldrick , renaissance something happened people , n't \? black adder
tomh metrics com \( tom haapanen \) subject top 10 reasons love cr \( humor impaired \) organization software metrics inc distribution na lines 19 iscs nus sg writes another ten reasons love cr 10 car salesmen love new car buying service 7 car salesmen rec auto readers turned expert statistics critics 5 lucky owners cr unreliable cars say mine never problem 4 owners joining sceptics months later 3 later subscribing cr taking soooo seriously 2 later buying cr idealized family sedan number 1 1 spectacle religious cr true believers tom haapanen tomh metrics com software metrics inc waterloo , ont stick index fingers corners mouth pull 's corrado makes feel car , january '93
sail labs tek com \( charles wilson \) subject experience opinions sought , diesel engines article sail organization tektronix , inc , beaverton , lines 42 article hydra gatech edu jmp com writes apologies faq \( faq posting group \? infrequent reader rec autos , ca n't remember \) market used chevy suburban , observed prices models diesel engines run 1000 2000 less comparable models gas engine reason yes , consumer confusion early 80 's fuel crisis , etc , everyone wanted better fuel mileage diesel fuel cheapest fuel available usually provides better mileage comparable gasoline engines , gm decided 350 gas engine diesel engine \( think 5 7 liter \) big mistake engine redesigned , converted engine could handle higher compression , etc lots problems cars big red flag casual observer buy diesel bad gross generalization ask question livelihood depended driving , lots , would use dependable \( cheaper short run \) vehicle \? greyhound busses \? trailer trucks \? even train \? gasoline engines \? , diesel tractor trailer truck manufacturers provide 500 , 000 mile warrantee vehicles `82 diesel suburban 6 2l diesel great engine keeps going expensive \( new \) gasoline engine vehicle problem diesel engines need rebuilt , expensive gas 350 engine , pay 1000 rebuild diesel 6 2l 2000 , diesel engine lasts twice long gets 50 better mileage gasoline engine costs 100 rebuild \( less \) rebuild fuel injection pump diesel cost 500 \( \) , never need tune 're looking rebuilt 6 2l , 'd say got great deal check see fuel injection pump rebuilt also good luck
jwg sedv1 acd com \( jim grey \) subject necessity fuel injector cleaning dealership organization hell lines 19 article 1993apr2 cbnewsl cb att com prm cbnewsl cb att com \( paul r mount \) writes experience , true fuel injector cleaning much good using detergent gas agree clogged fuel injector would darken day , clogged get , 59 good price \( buying \( \? \) \? fuel injector cleaning dealer probably little opening gas tank , dumping bottle fuel injector cleaner , sending merry way 59 poorer go kmart buy cleaner 1 29 dealer sez need , n't mean 's necessarily suspicious jim grey jwg acd4 acd com
tommy boole att com \( tommy reingold \) subject rfd rec autos saab article rodan organization bell labs , holmdel , nj , usa lines 42 nntp posting host rodan uu net request discussion request discussion creation newsgroup concerning saab cars allow exchange information purchasing , maintaining , repairing , saabs group name rec autos saab status unmoderated rationale may enough people saab cars interested buying saab interested knowing saabs reason justify new newsgroup recent growth net could improve turnaround time posing question receiving answers community discussion comments proposed new newsgroup posted usenet newsgroup news groups reader able , comments may e mailed , address voting problems arise , voting start 1 month posting date rfd tommy reingold tommy boole att com tommy reingold bell labs , holmdel , nj tommy boole att com att ! boole ! tommy
andyh chaos cs brandeis edu \( andrew j huang \) subject update \( tm \) 11 organization brandeis university lines 17 article 1993apr2 news cs brandeis edu andyh chaos cs brandeis edu \( andrew j huang \) writes article 1993apr2 magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu \( brian j queiser \) writes powell interlan interlan com \( glen powell \) writes kind corporate raiding apparently undertaken vw shameful agreed however , particular execs working many years left gm europe go detroit andy date vw stealing execs directly opel , independent lopez shameful andy
andyh chaos cs brandeis edu \( andrew j huang \) subject quick question keywords removing panels organization brandeis university lines 12 article 1993apr5 ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com \( devil reincarnate \) writes take driver side door panel inside '87 honda prelude \? speaker went scratchy , want access pins something going seems month , vw group must get specific detailed question hondas would like ask next month get one hyundai instead honda thank andy
uxa cso uiuc edu \( mark wayne \) subject male female mystery dumbest automotive concepts time article news organization university illinois urbana lines 30 bets chester ksu ksu edu \( beth \) writes thinking biological reason women ca n't put keys pants pockets like men \? two pockets back pants put keys one another many pockets even close securely everything much simpler ca n't women \? biological \( ie , enough room bigger bottom plus keys wallet \) way raised parents \? 've found way women 's clothes made put keys front pocket women 's jeans , get bulge also tends make impossible sit stick constantly ditto back pocket also , try looking back pockets women 's jeans compare back pockets men 's jeans usually \( buy jeans expect last length time \) half size flat n't room wallet bunch keys besides , would men put crap wives n't carry \? \) place single men , wallet back pocket , back pocket , keys front pocket , pocket , pen shirt pocket , front pants pocket married men start carrying around bunch stuff keep women happy \? beth mark b
elm lle rochester edu \( douglas baker \) subject performance new mustangs ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! article galileo 1993apr6 organization university rochester , rochester ny lines 9 nntp posting host elm lle rochester edu anyone know performance ratings 1992 1993 5 0 l ho mustang lx like 0 60 time 1 4 mile top end \? \? \? also tell magazine 's come look \? \? \? \? could year month page thanks , doug
organization penn state university psuvm psu edu subject us made b suv lines 10 mercedes benz announced yesterday plans begin building sport utility vehicles us 1997 targeted jeep grand cherokee et al reportedly sell less 30 , 000 anyone see picture \? g wagon \( \) currently available europe \( us grey market \) entirely new vehicle \? details would appreciated dick meyer applied research laboratory , penn state
keys starchild ncsl nist gov \( lawrence b keys \) subject us made b suv article dove organization national institute standards technology lines 47 article 93096 psuvm psu edu psuvm psu edu writes mercedes benz announced yesterday plans begin building sport utility vehicles us 1997 targeted jeep grand cherokee et al reportedly sell less 30 , 000 anyone see picture \? g wagon \( \) currently picture may 1993 edition european car \( although , may shelf yet \) things article says prototype front wheel drive \( first front drive mercedes since beginning wwii \) 3 15m 7 seater claim price renault chrysler voyager \( dm 50 , 000 \) looking picture \( slightly disguised \) looks like ford , available europe \( us grey market \) entirely new vehicle \? details would appreciated dick meyer applied research laboratory , penn state larry keys csmes ncsl nist gov oo 1990 2 0 16v fahrvergnugen forever ! fact need explain indicates probably would n't understand anyway !
ari leland stanford edu \( ari \) subject , 10w40 , 20w50 article morrow distribution world organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa lines 20 nntp posting host stanford edu article jgladu 128 249 27 63 jgladu bcm tmc edu \( grungy john f \) writes article 1993apr6 cs tulane edu , finnegan invader navo navy mil \( kenneth finnegan \) wrote additional data point , run castrol 20w50 exclusively following cars 75 rabbit , 78 scirocco , 76 rabbit , 78 bus , 70 beetle , 76 bus , 86 jetta gli 've never oil related problem add mine list '71 , '72 '68 , '69 bugs \( cringe \) '87 toyota tercel \( 's wife 's car , honest \) i'm still chicken running '90 's got castrol 10w40 n't understand last statement owner 's manual recommends 20w50 ! ! ari \( former vw fanatic , , 64 , stick , , , , 2 0 , , , \)
uicvm uic edu subject 1989 honda crx sale article uicvm 93096 organization university illinois chicago , academic computer center lines 12 friend , david gordon wants sell 1989 honda details th e car follows five speed c , fm cassette stereo ps pb rear window defroster excellent condition asking 6400 00 obo please call \( 708 \) 257
bb1t monsanto com subject necessity fuel injector cleaning dealership article bb1t 1993apr6 1 organization monsanto company , st louis , mo lines 29 article 1993apr6 acd4 acd com , jwg sedv1 acd com \( jim grey \) writes article 1993apr2 cbnewsl cb att com prm cbnewsl cb att com \( paul r mount \) writes experience , true fuel injector cleaning much good using detergent gas fuel injector cleaning dealer probably little opening gas tank , dumping bottle fuel injector cleaner , sending merry way 59 poorer go kmart buy cleaner 1 29 case reputable fuel injector cleaning done properly injector cleaner solvent hooked fuel system high pressure car actually run solvent cleaning process equipment properly pricey , generally something average home mechanic solvent expensive \( 5 8 \) could probably make hose fit system , n't tell \) many tank cleaners worth wasting money discussion products time time , chevron \( pro \) generally regarded best , however , bit 1 29 bottle imho , substitute proper injector cleaning really 'll decide 59 price better deal spending time buying equipment scott keller 1 314 537 agricultural group monsanto company bb1t monsanto com packet mo usa na
uu holonet net \( \) subject used taurus sho purchase article 274 332 uupcb reply uu holonet net \( \) distribution world organization data dimension pcboard , ga 404 921 1186 lines 31 quoting jeffrey j 's \( microwave gsfc nasa gov \) article skates gsfc nasa gov 04 06 93 , pertinent part jj considering buying used '90 taurus sho car jj question miles took test drive day jj questions came jj jj jj second , anything specifically look jj sho vintage \? anything specifically ask \? jj \( brakes , , etc \) noticed drive clutch jj point seemed little high since cars auto jj i'm sure point foot firmly planted jj brake started bit pop pedal jj soon engine started also occured bird jj test drove abs self test \? brake rotors clutch main things clutch replacement program might check see car still eligible , change well worth making also swap cruddy cable shifter newer rod shifter , also change worth making , 'll cost brakes usually one startup , probably normal n't know self test , 's interesting kind tires car \? winqwk 2 0b 131 good time dial 7000 sho
mobasser vu vlsi ee vill edu \( bijan mobasseri \) subject dumbest automotive concepts time article vu vlsi organization villanova university lines 17 '66 ford vent windows operated crank , like window \( opened , like normal vent window \) '70 , dad 's '84 bronco , pretty much every truck 've seen 's worth riding vent windows mean i'm young anymore \? \) james james p callison microcomputer coordinator , u oklahoma law center n't understand vent windows create tremendous noise makes even simple impossible speeds current flow ventilation , designed right , far superior bijan
mobasser vu vlsi ee vill edu \( bijan mobasseri \) subject dumbest automotive concepts time article vu vlsi organization villanova university lines 6 exactly dumb , tachometer 69 70 firebird hood right front driver neat place love know internals years also , pointer many us cars 3 feet long \? bijan
hacker cco caltech edu \( jonathan bruce hacker \) subject safety far see car \? article gap distribution na organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 105 nntp posting host sandman caltech edu ssave ole cdac com \( devil reincarnate \) writes lit cars make non illuminated things less visible \( like bikes \) hopefully 're going mandate 's people bikes well , 's already mandatory motorcycles jon hacker get os 2 2 1 march beta cd rom caltech , pasadena ca 15 hacker ridge caltech edu call 1 800 3 ibm os2
jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu \( john f nielsen \) subject top 10 reasons love cr \( humor impaired \) article magnus 1993apr6 distribution na organization ohio state university lines 28 nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu article 1993apr6 news cs brandeis edu andyh chaos cs brandeis edu \( andrew j huang \) writes article 1993apr6 magnus acs ohio state edu jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu \( john f nielsen \) writes article 1993apr06 metrics com tomh metrics com \( tom haapanen \) writes iscs nus sg writes another ten reasons love cr spectacle macho real men would never bother read magazine apt criticize 's point read , least found recommendations useless uninformed write lists cr flame war easy start wrong claim right thorough andy ok right , name good examples brought john john nielsen magnus consultant baldrick , renaissance something happened people , n't \? black adder
behanna phoenix syl nj nec com \( chris behanna \) subject car insurance ! ! ! help article research 1993apr6 organization nec systems laboratory , inc lines 32 article news claremont edu jarthur claremont edu \( ollie \) writes help ! car insurance cancelled second time row ! still n't gotten touch agent aaa 's week mom said got call saying insurance going cancelled accident \( even fender \) never declared anything besides fact idea found , thing could bug 1 ticket told said n't problem go another insurance , know end paying \( b c already shopped around one \) ca n't afford pay insurance especially since still n't gotten 3000 two companies supposed refund got new saturn sl2 ca n't afford car payments insurance , bought car gotten quote state farm later went back please help ! legal rights \? make state farm originally gave quote give rate \( made mistake signed papers , give false evidence \) \? get money back car ca n't pay insurance \? i'm ! ! ! ollie went mess new jersey \( i'm still waiting refund well \) , namely , original company made mistake left recourse nj 's insurance dept office consumer protection similar office state make use good luck , chris behanna dod 114 1983 h fxwg wide glide jubilee 's red lady behanna syl nj nec com 1975 cb360t baby bike disclaimer would nec 1991 zx 11 pending delivery agree anyway \? raised pack wild corn dogs
finnegan invader navo navy mil \( kenneth finnegan \) subject top 10 reasons love cr \( humor impaired \) article cs 1993apr6 reply finnegan navo navy mil distribution na organization grumman data systems lines 28 nntp posting host nntpd invader navo navy mil article 1993apr6 magnus acs ohio state edu , jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu \( john f nielsen \) writes article 1993apr06 metrics com tomh metrics com \( tom haapanen \) writes iscs nus sg writes another ten reasons love cr 10 car salesmen love new car buying service 2 later buying cr idealized family sedan number 1 1 spectacle religious cr true believers spectacle macho real men would never bother read magazine apt criticize hey , i'm macho real man read criticize want , especially since pay publication \( accept outside advertising , n't know \) john nielsen magnus consultant baldrick , renaissance something happened people , n't \? black adder relying consumer reports pick automobiles like letting field stream select living room furniture kenneth finnegan navo navy mil
andrew frip wv tek com \( andrew klossner \) subject lh car order delay article shaman reply andrew frip wv tek com organization tektronix color printers , wilsonville , oregon lines 13 read article 3 25 chicago tribune stating chrysler problems addressing demand 3 5l engine 's lh cars anyone post long waiting ordered car long told 'll wait \? \? ordered mine december 30 , got nine weeks later dealer said new orders held n't expect see 3 5l engine awhile andrew klossner \( andrew frip wv tek com \)
rdb1 cbnewsj cb att com \( ronald j deblock jr \) subject male female mystery dumbest automotive concepts time article cbnewsj 1993apr6 distribution na organization lines 15 article chester ksu ksu edu bets chester ksu ksu edu \( beth \) writes besides , would men put crap wives n't carry \? \) beth wife rarely carries purse , crap ends pockets ! ron deblock rdb1 att com \( 's number 1 rdb1 , letter l \) bell labs somerset , nj usa
michal cs cmu edu \( michal \) subject illegal tint windows nntp posting host sp cs cmu edu organization school computer science , carnegie mellon lines 38 know 's long shot , maybe someone went comments share story bought car state , i'm trying get safety inspection pennsylvania problem car aftermarket tint windows except windshield tint rather weak , clearly see inside car tint inspection garage said wo n't pass unless get waiver state police went state police officer told aftermarket tint illegal , get waiver pre 84 car medical reason asked show section vehicle code says 's illegal showed said ca n't tint , ca n't see inside car tint told fact see inside well , shut book said 's illegal , fact someone give ticket right well , wo n't argue since vehicle code says 's ok long see tint , 'd like keep \( 'll read vehicle code library \) 'd also like get sort paper police says 's ok , get inspection , wo n't get trouble tint later also would n't mind registering complaint officer really pissed anyone experience getting sort paper police , especially pennsylvania \? anyone experience registering complaint officer \? called station later today , basically said place could register complaint officer decide keep tint get ticket anyway , much chance stand succesfully appeal ticket court \? comments welcome ! michal
eliot stalfos engr washington edu \( eliot \) subject top 10 reasons love cr \( humor impaired \) article engr distribution na organization clearer blir lines 15 nntp posting host 192 42 145 4 article 1993apr6 magnus acs ohio state edu jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu \( john f nielsen \) writes blah blah blah ok right , name good examples brought let 's create new group rec autos cr right yes oh yeah father lick father \) eliot
cbnewsm cb att com \( james w lee iii \) subject new saturn argument article cbnewsm 1993apr6 distribution usa organization lines 17 article noose ecn purdue edu , rjwade rainbow ecn purdue edu \( robert j wade \) writes ok , argue sl2 much lower base price sc2 \? \? \? 's 1k cheaper \( forget exact amount \) n't cost extra doors windows locks motors etc 4 door \? \? \? \? perhaps marketing deal people want , pay extra 1 2k \? \? \? sc1 sc2 shorter wheel base sl sl1 sl2 sw1 sw2 , thought right though james lee bell labs murray hill , n j room 2a 336 201 582 att ! !
cs uoregon edu \( dennis kennedy \) subject '72 chevelle ss forsale organization university oregon lines 11 distribution usa nntp posting host cc 25 uoregon edu n't want sell car , need money college 1972 chevelle super sport rebuilt 402 , four speed , 12 bolt numbers match 110 , 000 original miles rust looks runs excellent best offer call dennis \( 503 \) 343 email cs uoregon edu
jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu \( john f nielsen \) subject top 10 reasons love cr \( humor impaired \) article magnus 1993apr6 distribution na organization ohio state university lines 52 nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu article 1993apr6 cs tulane edu finnegan navo navy mil writes article 1993apr6 magnus acs ohio state edu , jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu \( john f nielsen \) writes article 1993apr06 metrics com tomh metrics com \( tom haapanen \) writes iscs nus sg writes another ten reasons love cr 10 car salesmen love new car buying service 2 later buying cr idealized family sedan number 1 1 spectacle religious cr true believers spectacle macho real men would never bother read magazine apt criticize hey , i'm macho real man read criticize want , especially since pay publication \( accept outside advertising , n't know \) john nielsen magnus consultant baldrick , renaissance something happened people , n't \? black adder relying consumer reports pick automobiles like letting field stream select living room furniture kenneth finnegan navo navy mil one ever rely magazine determine car buy , n't care magazine btw , subscribe three auto rags , think cu getting bum rap macho men hell think real men read statements like said meaning people keep saying cu good detergent said relying consumer reports like say critical cu maybe would real content john john nielsen magnus consultant baldrick , renaissance something happened people , n't \? black adder
vax5 cit cornell edu subject impreza , altima , \? \? distribution rec organization cornell university lines 14 friend mine buying new car , considering subaru impreza nissan altima right two cars would recommend definately want airbag abs , room tall people long legs suggestions cars 13k dealing 'd interested opinions well please send replies postoffice mail cornell edu , address thanks ! scott
balsamo stargl enet dec com \( antonio l balsamo \( save wails \) \) subject advise needed buying automobile reply balsamo stargl enet dec com \( antonio l balsamo \( save wails \) \) organization digital equipment corporation lines 20 thwang mentor cc purdue edu \( tommy hwang \) subject advise needed buying automobile search dependable automobile purchase requirements 5 v6 cars mentioned \( smaller \) v6 engine tony name antonio l balsamo company digital equipment corp shrewsbury , mass work \( 508 \) 841 2039 e mail balsamo stargl enet dec com
rjwade rainbow ecn purdue edu \( robert j wade \) subject integra gsr organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 21 quad 4 reliable , yeah , 's definition reliable 's reliable , safe say integra engines general near perfect \( mention , hell alot smoother quieter balance shafts acura engine wins contest hands rev car day , everyday , 'll never blow hose , crack block , anything else \( speak ! \) i'm saying quad 4 bad engine , n't highlight reliability comparing acura engine integra costs alot , couple things blowing hose n't speak engine reliability , true quad4 's problem head gasket leaks , design flaw gasket corrected also know pontiac replacing head gaskets leak free 60k miles found quad4 completely solid direct ignition system means wires rotor rotor cap ever deal also mean valve adjustments ever i'm integra engine , think going overboard slamming quad4 quite correct integra engine quieter , although would say smoother , quad4 loves rev , especially high end evidence blocks cracking \? heard
rjwade rainbow ecn purdue edu \( robert j wade \) subject bang 13 , 000 16 , 000 organization purdue university engineering computer network distribution na lines 18 article oasys dt navy mil tobias oasys dt navy mil \( steve tobias \) writes rec autos , cpkjp vm cc latech edu \( kevin parker \) writes 'd like get feedback car bang buck 13000 16 , 000 price range i'm looking car enough civility driven every day , even long trips , hit gas , want feel acceleration handling important also , reliability pretty low maintenance costs stylish appearance nice , n't want car show much go even though many imports fast , n't really want turbo , never cared song sung four 'd prefer v6 v8 engine suggestions , kevin parker 's one car really fits needs 's spelled 5 0 liter mustang ! sorry , said , long trips , reliability , low maintenance cost !
keys starchild ncsl nist gov \( lawrence b keys \) subject necessity fuel injector cleaning dealership organization national institute standards technology lines 58 article 1993apr6 acd4 acd com jwg sedv1 acd com \( jim grey \) writes article 1993apr2 cbnewsl cb att com prm cbnewsl cb att com \( paul r mount \) writes experience , true fuel injector cleaning much good using detergent gas agree clogged fuel injector would darken day , clogged get , 59 good price \( buying \( \? \) \? fuel injector cleaning dealer probably little opening gas tank , dumping bottle fuel injector cleaner , sending merry way 59 poorer go kmart buy cleaner 1 29 personally , would n't use 1 29 product kmart knew previously , past weekend pbs 's pat goss \( resident tech type \) discussed products , recommends using \( e , non isopropyl based injector cleaners \) supposedly isopropyl based cleaners actually remove moisture fuel tank clean although others \( ethyl based \) clean also cause rubber components fuel system deteriorate , n't mix well water help remove fuel system use product recommended vw called \( bg products , inc \) cost 14 00 , supposed job without potential harmful side effects , results supposed last 2k 4k miles also used chevron 's \( sp \? \) ca n't say noticed difference using either , since use product preventative maintenance item dealer sez need , n't mean 's necessarily suspicious jim grey jwg acd4 acd com larry keys csmes ncsl nist gov oo 1990 2 0 16v fahrvergnugen forever ! fact need explain indicates probably would n't understand anyway !
dwjz bnr ca \( doug zolmer \) subject 80 svx oil change nntp posting host reply dwjz bnr ca \( doug zolmer \) organization bell northern research ltd distribution na lines 24 article undergrad math uwaterloo ca , napier uwaterloo ca \( donald wan \) writes friend brought subaru svx recently drove couples times think great car , esp snow however took local subaru dealer oil change , bill came 80 dollars dealer told us change oil filter svx necessary disassemble metal cover engine took hour labour first , think ripped phone dealer toronto found charging roughly price svx owner problem \? oil change story true , engineer subaru looks pretty way , car looks great labour prices car service expensive toronto compared parts ontario example , places ottawa still charge 40 hour 've seen couple places charging 60 hour cheapest 've heard toronto 70 hour wan doug zolmer internet dwjz bnr ca disclaimer opinions bell northern research ltd ottawa , ontario , canada conform !
uxa cso uiuc edu \( mark wayne \) subject , 10w40 , 20w50 organization university illinois urbana lines 12 zowie daedalus stanford edu \( craig powderkeg deforest \) writes 're planning making long drives , 20w50 probably fine \( esp summer \) 10w40 car 're making short drives , stick 10w40 several years ago gm trouble rings sticking 5 7 diesel traced cause use 10w 40 oil would honor warranty work 10w 40 used \( memory serves \) 5 30 , 10 30 20 50 ok 'd though mark b
express freedom msfc nasa gov \( \) subject male female mystery dumbest automotive concepts time nntp posting host 128 158 16 248 organization lines 56 article gap caltech edu , wen king cs caltech edu \( wen king su \) wrote article 1993apr1 28921 iscnvx lmsc lockheed com sharen iscnvx lmsc lockheed com \( sharen rund \) writes apparently 're woman husband hates auto door locks features , forgets besides families children , woman feels safer car locks easily \( addition watching around checking anyone 's near get car never park secluded spot , etc keys ready open door i'm purse looking thinking biological reason women ca n't put keys pants pockets like men \? two pockets back pants put keys one another many pockets even close securely everything much simpler ca n't women \? biological \( ie , enough room bigger bottom plus keys wallet \) way raised parents \? women 's pants rarely pockets , , shallow use ! important woman keys hand goes building car protect would broadcasting someone definite place safty \( ie locked car ! \) keys looks ugly ! breaks lines makes rear look wide cows ! also , habits work clothing situation , functions mater wearing ! \( even nude \) women 's suit coat lucky 2 pockets \( 2 outside , none inside \) men 's coats much 6 pockets ! fair ! ! ! one wears men 's women 's clothes , tell , women 's clothes pockets ! dressed man , put wallet inside coat pocket keys coat outside pocket much pants pockets looks better car unlocks quickly locks back fast woman 's safty men n't see problem woman aware every time goes ! \( e image red necks yelling going fuck ! weight 20 lbs 3 inches ! \) want find women something , live one !
kurt oddjob uchicago edu \( kurt \) subject brake rotors cross drilling 312 702 organization university chicago , astronomy astrophysics distribution na lines 1
welty cabot balltown cma com \( richard welty \) subject saturn 's pricing policy organization new york state institute sebastian cabot studies lines 20 article 1993apr5 581 cs brown edu cs brown edu \( hok chung tsang \) writes moreover , saturn really reduce dealer profit margin 1000 , cars even better deals say , price saturn already 1000 market average class cars , reduce dealer profit , would 2000 market average 1 \) attract even people buy saturns would save money 2 \) force competitors lower prices survive saturn 's motivation \? 're already selling every car make , multiple shifts plant given , possible motivation could lower prices \? cheers , richard richard welty 518 393 7228 welty cabot balltown cma com ``nothing good ever reported full rotation race car either pitch roll axis'' carroll smith
mps1 cec1 wustl edu \( mihir pramod shah \) subject new saturn argument article wuecl 1993apr6 organization washington university , st louis mo lines 78 nntp posting host cec1 article noose ecn purdue edu rjwade rainbow ecn purdue edu \( robert j wade \) writes ok , argue sl2 much lower base price sc2 \? \? \? 's 1k cheaper \( forget exact amount \) n't cost extra doors windows locks motors etc 4 door \? \? \? \? perhaps marketing deal people want , pay extra 1 2k \? \? \? ok , 's understand sl sl1 sl2 sw1 sw2 meant compete following cars honda civic toyota tercel \( sl , sl1 \) toyota corolla \( sl1 , sl2 \) nissan sentra mazda 323 subaru impreza isuzu stylus geo prizm ford escort mercury tracer mirage plymouth dodge colt core competition civic , corolla , sentra models class , n't first cars would think threw escort tracer good amount japanese technology similar reliability stats n't include domestic small cars cavalier , , shadow , sundance , tempo , topaz , since think saturn going cars least degree japanese roots sc1 sc2 meant compete following cars toyota paseo honda civic si civic coupes del sol si nissan nx2000 mazda mx 3 isuzu impulse geo storm ford escort gt look prices cars , 're expensive 're 4 door counterparts good reason trend driven market even though many models based sedan platforms , interior , etc good enough warrant slightly higher prices platform think tercel paseo sentra nx2000 civic del sol 323 mx 3 \( sure one \) stylus impulse storm illustrate , tercel starts around 8000 , paseo starts around 11 , 000 even 4 door tercel cost less 2 door paseo , might saying tercel n't offer power 4 doors offer mean 4 dr tercel comparable sport coupe derivative let 's take another example isuzu stylus xs impulse xs storm gsi \( 1 6l engine \) , smaller 2 dr coupes generally expensive , two door sport coupe market fashion oriented trend setting segment people willing pay money type car short , even though sc1 sc2 may smaller , hence less car , 's market orientation dictates slightly higher price mechanically equivalent sedan \( sl1 sl2 \) version hope clears things bit mihir shah
subject apology \( us drive left \? \) aas7 po cwru edu \( andrew spencer \) reply aas7 po cwru edu \( andrew spencer \) organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) nntp posting host slc5 ins cwru edu lines 54 previous article , dh3q andrew cmu edu \( daniel u holbrook \) says i'm guessing , believe probably drove mostly cattle trails wagon ruts fairly sure placement steering wheel pretty much arbitrary company time 1920s , active good roads movement , origins actually bicycle , picked steam teens \( witness highway association , 1912 , us highway support act \( real name something different \) 1916 first pledged federal aid states counties build decent roads also , experience widespread use trucks domestic transport ww 1 convinced government good crucial national defense anyway , 20s plenty good roads , least around urban areas , rapidly expanding countryside era , , first auto touring fad , motel , auto camp ground , etc two good books subject spring mind warren america road \( title may exact author \) another called devil wagon god 's country author forget also , john 's john bell rae 's auto histories i'm sorry , never heard guess n't think 's important enough classroom , going 've seen pics \( movies real nice , huh \? \) always recall thinking good roads asphalt n't come around til interstate act , whatever called \( 60 's \? \) , wood roads fairly rare depression , except places like england us cities obviously says wrong placement steering wheel arbitrary , early teens virtually american cars wheel left early days , cars wheel left , right , even middle , well sometimes instead wheel standardized fairly early , though n't know knew almost always done , knew reason might done way car seems like deviations norm , times \) dan dh3q andrew cmu edu carnegie mellon university applied history world history strides catastrophe catastrophe , whether comprehend prove oswald spengler thanx , , post drew
cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu \( carolinafan uiuc \) subject bang 13 , 000 16 , 000 article news distribution na organization university illinois urbana lines 36 jmh hopper virginia edu \( jeffrey hoffmeister \) writes article 1993apr6 progress com damelio progress com \( stephen d'amelio \) writes rjwade rainbow ecn purdue edu \( robert j wade \) writes 's one car really fits needs 's spelled 5 0 liter mustang sports car , mothers '88 gt considered sports car still ca n't quite figure , since plastic add ons make car sports car \? jeff 're talking insurance agents k illinois \( st farm bloomington \) hell know cars sports cars \) chintan amin university illinois urbana champaign mail llama uiuc edu human goodness moral called insane peart cinderella man
mark ampr org \( mark g \) subject front end alignment possible \? article 1993apr6 distribution na organization systems inc lines 44 lonestar utsa edu \( david de leon \) writes article bu edu csa bu edu \( steven \) writes 've got 86 plymouth colt 'd like front end alignment possible without fancy gadgets pros \? \? steve , putting lives others road consider able risk think mechanics certified \? \? anyway put , need fancy gadgets awww , right , want home mechanics lined wall shot eh \? bull chicken ! read service manual get head sand ! certainly tools job cheaper alignment rack , job competently \( albeit , swiftly \) , accurate , due natural pride owner mechanic places work job aligning car using simple tools imaginative work would never effect anyones life worst happens tires wear oddly \( well , could wheels aiming totally able steer car , raise hands think vision poor would screw badly ! \) bet one people feels cylinder wall sand paper kill millions people aint magic go take certification course , look people never learned add whole life taking certification ! btw , disgusted colt \( chrysler offerings \) go alignment '84 chrysler laser \( similar daytona , colt \) needed realignment every 3 months bolt good grade wheel , using carefully welded spacer measure toe , adjust manufacturer specs bit difficult adjust measure used measure space rim funky bent pipe could placed upper lower portions rim inside wheel \( hard explain \) tool could used instead made tools right last alignment done professionally reference original poster might ciao mark
server uwindsor ca \( scarecrow \) subject dumbest automotive concepts time organization university windsor , ontario , canada lines 37 ross com \( mike \) 85 mph esp electronic ones digital dash 87 large analog clock middle dash everything digital except stinking clock \? funny thing digital dash \( 87 bird \) 85mph speedo limit pressed button convert kilometers would read way point stock anemic 302 would get short breath course equivalent \( \) bet really confused thing 'd engine rolled stupid thing \( digits limited 199 \) 've gotta agree ya analog clock w digital dash though girlfriend '85 digital clock analog gauges radio go figure usenet constellation ecn uoknor edu \( usenet administrator \) love keyless entry bird 's great times stop put air tires could get lock door engine running ran around air tire also great feature bird could pull key leave ignition scared hell first time happened kinda grew like musta bad key copy something mark god sky tonight sign heaven anywhere sight nin jesus loves ya blow tribute former area supervisor jim infamous math \( demoted departed \) ministry
buck granite ma30 bull com \( ken buck \) subject trains radar \? organization bull information systems inc lines 16 hhtra usho72 hou281 chevron com \( haddock \) writes came upon train parked trestle locomotive sitting directly lanes passed underneath trestle , radar detector went full alert lights lit chirps , beeps , buzzes going strong could caused train 's radio \? recently manufactured wheel slip detection systems use frequencies shared police radar \( forget band \) set radar detector get close enough , though believe range pretty short btw , railroad police sometimes use radar check speeding trains \( like regular police check speeding cars \) , although intent safety , revenue collection \( unlike cars \)
hhm cbnewsd cb att com \( herschel h mayo \) subject braindead drivers n't look ahead organization chicago home morally challenged distribution usa keywords bad drivers lines 29 article zdem0a hgo7 , zdem0a hgo7 hou amoco com \( donna martz \) writes , block would passers good , well even though often stupid realize ! ! ! ! ! ! rule philosophy , n't feel particularly sorry somebody gets offed stupidity , worry idiot position cash chips , h h mayo well , n't mr altruism ! ! world needs , another frustrated self appointed traffic cop well , want stick nose car ass 50 foot semi , suppose 's neck , however , i'm going let kill bargain get frustrated somebody delaying inevitable death due less wise driving practices , tough ! ! ! thank god fourth july , yearly earth considerable load fools mark twain
rdb1 cbnewsj cb att com \( ronald j deblock jr \) subject changing oil self organization distribution usa keywords n lines 19 article 1993apr14 lmpsbbs comm mot com ssd comm mot com \( \) writes think use electric drill \( change suitable bit \) turn \? succeed , tighten tight , safe without oil leak \? tighten bolt specified torque service manual way wo n't leak , strip , break , etc \( hopefully \) \) thank much advance avoid problems entirely installing oil drain valve place bolt one cars leaks 210 , 000 miles \( combined miles cars \) ron deblock rdb1 att com \( 's number 1 rdb1 , letter l \) bell labs somerset , nj usa
ljbartel naomi b23b ingr com \( les bartel \) subject aftermarket air conditioners reply ljbartel naomi b23b ingr com organization intergraph corporation lines 30 article axon cs unc edu andrew brandt writes looked getting c installed 1987 honda crx si unit 875 plus shipping , installation like 5 1 2 hours top hunk change anyone know place aftermarket c installation \( honda c unit , third party unit \) cannot seem find anyone put third party c unit honda carolina , would prefer place nearby , references would handy thx , andy \( brandt cs unc edu \) sorry ca n't help question , comment make concerning aftermarket c units frost king frost temp \( forget \) aftermarket unit cavalier , quite unhappy fan noisy , n't put much air never aftermarket c installed vehicles ca n't trust quality performance experience les les bartel i'm going live forever intergraph corporation die trying electronics division ljbartel ingr com ljbartel naomi b23b ingr com \( 205 \) 730
hhm cbnewsd cb att com \( herschel h mayo \) subject braindead drivers n't look ahead organization chicago home morally challenged distribution usa keywords bad drivers lines 27 agree traffic blocked want pass , might feel like moving someone behind n't want give one car length , wait like , 're one people sit 's behind person , n't flash high beams , pull left flash , ride bumper , otherwise tell fact want go , 're drafting , get hell way someone ! especially hate flash someone back line n't 's also issue cars intimidating get people way others \( instance '85 '86 gts look pretty mean mirror night \) plenty times 've broken pack second line hyundai behind miles need know get attention 'd like see use method couple semi drivers see , usually acknowledge sticking hand window middle finger extended also obvious clear lane ahead h h
ita com \( trevor \) subject day court results nntp posting host curly ita com organization landmark ita lines 36 back asked help defending traffic ticket received short ticket stopping stop sign given conditions could stop time decided instead sliding right intersection , would complete right turn avoid possible accident police cruiser happened approaching intersection left gave ticket officer said reason even slowed first place saw approaching , otherwise would bombed right would like thank responded favorably request help told bite bullet pay fine judge sided decided case stopping safest thing found guilty officer 's statement account conditions time \( slippery , backed weather conditions \) factors made judge decide verdict moral never court think case , go interesting process , benefit exercise rights name trevor landmark ita email ita com calgary , alberta , canada visitor cyberspace \( 403 \) 269 virtual reality include disclaimer h
larry boris webo dg com \( larry rogers \) subject saturn 91 92 manual transmission problem reply utica ge com 's message tue , 13 apr 1993 20 50 21 gmt organization data general , westboro , mass lines 34 exactly problem 1981 horizon third gear would engine would rev kind disconcerting sold car quite years back memory tranny sticks also clutch chatter first dealer could fix lemon law place , car would covered several jap cars since \( figuring horizon contribution american auto companies \) , never seen bad behavior exception toyota tercel bit clutch chatter fix first try anyway , day forward , sworn would never purchase another american car standard american manufacturers n't clue manufacture five speed transmissions automatics much longer many cars however , hate automatics , still buying jap cars sure help , cars cheers , larry larry rogers larry rogers dg com big brother larry boris webo dg com watching data general 508 870 opinions contained herein , reflect opinions data general anyone else , sometimes windshield , sometimes bug dire
tc faa gov \( michael j \) subject regal fiberglass parts \? \? organization faa technical center , pomona , nj lines 10 distribution world nntp posting host faa gov summary regal fiberglass parts \? \? keywords regal fiberglass parts \? \? 1982 regal interested buying fiberglass hood , trunk , bumpers anybody know company makes fiberglass parts \? \? thanks advance , mike
bmoss grinch sim es com \( brent woody moss \) subject trains radar \? nntp posting host 130 187 200 5 organization evans sutherland computer corp , salt lake city , ut lines 34 article x ! b dixie com , jgd dixie com \( john de armond \) writes hhtra usho72 hou281 chevron com \( haddock \) writes taking extended easter vacation , going north 45 somewhere , tx dallas , tx came upon train parked trestle locomotive sitting directly lanes appeared movement within cab curiosity slowed 85 get better look passed underneath trestle , radar detector went full alert lights lit chirps , beeps , buzzes going strong thought nailed good police , , doppler radar head mounted looking ground \( minimize sent received \) looking wheel low power units typically wo n't trigger radar detectors unless unusual situation arises john john de armond , wd4oqc interested high performance mobility \? performance engineering magazine \( tm \) interested high tech computers \? marietta , ga send ur snail mail address jgd dixie com perform dixie com free sample mag need usenet public access atlanta \? write info dixie com makes sense \( radar pointed \) , almost every train pass head triggers radar detector passed front engine get little reflections approaching instant get side first engine detector receives fairly strong signal short time happens every train see
wtm uhura neoucom edu \( bill mayhew \) subject electronic odometers \( used bmw question \? \? \? \) organization northeastern ohio universities college medicine lines 32 consulted someone working electronic odometer design use microprocessor based system write somewhat pattern eeprom idea make circuit difficult program arbitrary values eeprom secondary purpose , acutally primary purpose standpoint practicality , distributed writes avoid maximum number writes eeprom used microprocessor also ignored pulses coming hall effect rate higher 110 mph make spoofing reading bench least somewhat undesirable automobile expected ever exceed 110 mph operation case , course , might 1993 rx 7 ! modules cars indeed store info conditions cars operated since steering angle velocity data , etc available would difficult collect sorts interesting demographic information use car aware manufacturer currently trying enforce warranty restrictions based reading use data could potential invasion privacy manufacturers access data driving style , could also provide valuable information actual field use conditions help engineer appropriate cars personally would n't mind dealer collecting driving demographics long done anonymous fashion bill mayhew neoucom computer services department rootstown , oh 44272 9995 usa phone 216 325 2511 wtm uhura neoucom edu \( 140 220 1 1 \) 146 580 n8wed
ak296 yfn ysu edu \( john r daker \) subject open letter nissan organization st elizabeth hospital , youngstown , oh lines 17 reply ak296 yfn ysu edu \( john r daker \) nntp posting host yfn ysu edu previous article , smorris sumax seattleu edu \( steven morris \) says , 's even better suggestion , n't guys go ahead buy rest fuji heavy industries \( subaru \) put either line 4 v 6 legacy 4wd wagon 'd buy legacy minute nissan engine instead horizontal 4 seem attached find wrong flat 6 subaru 's , flat 4 matter \? dod 650 darkman significant problems face cannot solved level thinking created albert einstein eternal champion
subject market cruise controls specific questions byu edu \( \( mike \) \) organization byu nntp posting host 128 187 203 40 lines 82 howdy , i'm little new newsgroup , would like tap knowledge expertise available subject market cruise controls background recently broke ankle road bicycling accident \( 4 places , five screws , yuk ! \( \) two weeks returning texas \( home \) school \( byu \) provo , utah imagine , trying drive nearly 1300 miles broken right ankle n't good time car cruise control , would \( ha ha \) messed ankle question general opinion market cruise control units \? realize cheap cc \( cruise control \) , say , pep boys , n't going good factory professionally installed unit \( thing \) probably ca n't expect much way accuracy , looks sort thing anything 's gotta better trying drive hosed ankle 1984 jeep cherokee , 4 speed , standard , 4 4 , 2 5l engine kettering \( sp \? \) ignition \( y'know , distributor cap , rotor , set electronic maybe could 've guessed '84 , i'm trying give information completly \) found cc unit 80 bucks seems use vehicles vacuum system instead electric motor good bad \? buy cc , vacuum hose tap \? two speed sensors one magnetic , one gets signal negative side distributor , kinda like tach pick , understand use either one best \? manual says \( read store today \) magnetic axle set accurate , harder install really big difference \? sensor brake pedal , like ccs , sensor clutch pedal n't paying real close attention might push clutch cruise trying get speed would wind engine kinda high got wits turned thing i'm pretty coordinated , n't bother , car , would bother , i'm ok installation also calls attachment steady brake signal switched brake signal think get switched brake signal correct side brake light blade fuse right \? i'm sure get steady brake signal , , matter , exactly \? ideas wants get \? think figure things like hook negative side tach type sensing gizmo cabin control unit , ground miscellaneous business need little help 1 worth money safety risk \( \) device \? 2 particularly good market cc \? 3 professionally installed ccs better worth \? 4 unit saw \( sorry , manufacturer model number , pep boy 80 \) sufficient simple needs , get thing installed properly \( specifically , questions \) \? father built veep \( powered jeep cj 2a \) high school , consider fairly good tools , electronics , cars installation n't scare want certain get thing installed correctly cherokee wee bit complicated veep \) appreciate time reading post , would appreciate expertise opinion anybody subject would like share wisdom , please email n't get group often \( check mail time \) , thanks help anyone may mike byu edu
daniel u holbrook dh3q andrew cmu edu subject us drive left \? organization carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 28 distribution world reilly fnal gov nntp posting host po4 andrew cmu edu reply reilly fnal gov rob reilly tempers initially , cars built driver 's controls right 's way people drove , many earliest cars steering controls center vehicle , discernible pattern left right hand steering controls years 20th century , , america least , left hand wheels became pattern mule team \( horses , imagine \) explanation , however , seems merit dan dh3q andrew cmu edu carnegie mellon university applied history coffee stomach mind , ideas pour forth like battalions grand army field battle memories charge full light comparisons magnificently artillery logic hurry train ammunition flashes wit pop like sharp shooters de , 30 cups day
ak296 yfn ysu edu \( john r daker \) subject license plates nissan organization st elizabeth hospital , youngstown , oh lines 12 reply ak296 yfn ysu edu \( john r daker \) nntp posting host yfn ysu edu previous article , marshall wvnet edu \( \) says hi , i'm interested getting list license plate numbers anyone listing 'd appreciate getting copy thanks ! must incredibly bored considered reading phone book \? dod 650 darkman significant problems face cannot solved level thinking created albert einstein eternal champion
ak296 yfn ysu edu \( john r daker \) subject isuzu opinions sought organization st elizabeth hospital , youngstown , oh lines 16 reply ak296 yfn ysu edu \( john r daker \) nntp posting host yfn ysu edu previous article , shl com \( scott dexter \) says like would like feedback feedback appreciated yet another jeep wannabe designed yuppies never take road want look dod 650 darkman significant problems face cannot solved level thinking created albert einstein eternal champion
ak296 yfn ysu edu \( john r daker \) subject license plates organization st elizabeth hospital , youngstown , oh lines 16 reply ak296 yfn ysu edu \( john r daker \) nntp posting host yfn ysu edu previous article , marshall wvnet edu \( \) says hi , i'm interested getting list license plate numbers anyone listing 'd appreciate getting copy thanks ! must incredibly bored considered reading phone book \? dod 650 darkman significant problems face cannot solved level thinking created albert einstein eternal champion
parr acs ucalgary ca \( charles parr \) subject truck mileage nntp posting host acs3 acs ucalgary ca organization university calgary , alberta lines 36 article 1993mar30 ns1 cc lehigh edu ns1 cc lehigh edu \( jun \) writes article 1993mar26 1204 nosc mil , nosc mil \( walter \) writes article hpscit sc hp com hpscit sc hp com \( chris \) wr ites consumers report study think found trucks got worse mileage tailgate newer trucks actually help oh , sure replacing front bumper grille closet door helps mileage cooling cr actually said , bigger fools working fools believe drivel , argue \? someone 's pickup driver 20 years , 's forget , take tailgate trips since nets n't designed capable restraining load bed anyway around town , tailgate effect mileage anyway walt k may help improve mileage cases , believe tailgate flow structure behind cab may differ drag may reduced high speed driving covers \? 've thinking building one comment affect mileage highway travel \? charles within span last weeks heard elements separate threads , conjoined time , struck together form new chord within hollow echoing gourd unknown net person
andrew cmu edu subject 86 chevy sprint organization doctoral student , industrial administration , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 15 nntp posting host po2 andrew cmu edu 86 chevy sprint c 's odometer turned sensor light started blinking went dealer said maintenance light saying need change oxygen sensor said , changed every 30k , since bought car , n't know thing happened 30k 60k quoted 198 part 50 install part cost 30 outside , mechanic went could fix saying sensor placed deep engine parts suggested wait till malfunctions anything anyone owns chevy sprint , want know got oxygen sensors changed also , face problem fixing without dealer 's help also , results oxygen sensor malfunction help would greatly thanks
\( eric youngblood \) subject old corvettes low insurance \? reply peon w email \( eric youngblood \) nntp posting host organization bnr , inc lines 47 article 1993apr15 ns1 cc lehigh edu , ns1 cc lehigh edu \( scott warren \) writes article news cso uiuc edu , uxa cso uiuc edu \( george nz \) writes many years school i'm finally graduating getting real job course trying make plans spend extra money right 89 accord , good car , real sporty thinking selling two years dropping around 20k sports car kind thinking , may better idea 'll keep accord drops buy car 've always wanted corvette reasoning 8000 \( accord \) 8000 \( corvette \) less would spend anyway basically , i'm thinking late 70 's , early 80 's around 7 10k question , good years consider \( reliability , looks , horsepower order , believe , horsepower main concern , want go fast , get motorcycle \) good prices \? also , would insurance look like \? i'm male , single , 23 \( might wait i'm 25 get car lower insurance \) would fact mainly drive car lower \? type classic car rarely driven insurance class driving 10k miles per year \? dad 66 vette say basically means restricted amount driving time , basically means cant used every day car would probably suit needs limited mileage addition restricted mileage , many classic insurance carriers also require vehicle garaged use 0 02 eric youngblood bell northern research richardson , texas , \( peon w email
sorlin magnus acs ohio state edu \( steven j orlin \) subject changing oil self keywords n nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university distribution usa lines 18 article 1993apr15 cbnewsj cb att com rdb1 cbnewsj cb att com \( ronald j deblock jr \) writes avoid problems entirely installing oil drain valve place bolt one cars leaks 210 , 000 miles \( combined miles cars \) yes , someone would problem draining oil parking lot reach underneath , turn valve , forget trip home less likelyhood wrench personally recommend , installing 'special' locking drain plug keep vandals away \) steve
cray com \( robert j \) subject dumbest automotive concepts time lines 27 nntp posting host cray com organization cray research , inc article 57 unix amherst edu unix amherst edu \( barak h \) writes started reading thread today , forgive already mentioned deal renault 's putting horn left hand turn signal stalk \? button end , washer button would wiper washer stalk could figure wiring steering wheel , \? well , start calling engineering folks france bunch 1979 mercury capri lovely feature earlier german variant newer one identical mustang current fame ca n't tell many times feature pissed come think brothers well robert cray com going back earlier thread , imagine turn left , shift gears , flash stray driver intersection left hand high beam headlight stalk , , driver would n't move , honk horn left hand stalk ! gives barak
colombo bronco fnal gov \( rick 'open vms colombo \) subject trains busses radar \? nntp posting host bronco fnal gov organization fermilab computing division lines 27 article usenet ucs indiana edu , mliggett silver ucs indiana edu \( matthew liggett \) writes 1993apr13 usho72 hou281 chevron com hhtra usho72 hou281 chevron com \( haddock \) writes taking extended easter vacation , going north 45 somewhere , tx dallas , tx came upon train parked trestle locomotive sitting directly lanes appeared movement within cab curiosity slowed 85 get better look passed underneath trestle , radar detector went full alert lights lit chirps , beeps , buzzes going strong thought nailed good police could caused train 's radio \? n't know trains , 've saw sign back greyhound bus warns radar detector may set n't explain , set radar detector e net desk rick colombo cd dcd dsg fermi nat'l lab 708 840 fermilab p box 500 ms 369 feynman computer center batavia , ill usa colombo fnal fnal gov course speak fermilab , congress president ! ! !
mcostell oasys dt navy mil \( malcolm g costello \) subject sprayed info wanted reply mcostell oasys dt navy mil \( malcolm g costello \) distribution usa organization carderock division , nswc , bethesda , md lines 28 rec autos , dennis cv hp com \( dennis \) writes repost soon , xthe information earlier post system xi looking information concerning x sprayed pickup trucks xa company using 've around 9 months 's much track record sprayed good \? hold years \? xinfo would appreciated x x dealer area \? 've offered spray bed liners around several years , see kind warranty \( unfortunately , n't know anyone gotten one ca n't help \) also ask give list references mack costello mcostell oasys dt navy mil code 65 1 \( formerly 1720 1 \) david taylor model basin , carderock division hq nswc bethesda , md 20084 5000 phone \( 301 \) 227 2431 \(
markm bigfoot sps mot com \( mark monninger \) subject car buying story , christ , another dealer service scam nntp posting host 223 250 10 7 reply rapw20 email sps mot com organization sps distribution usa lines 57 article hp col col hp com tvervaek col hp com \( tom vervaeke \) writes experience jeep service dept exactly service incident , similar experience recently bought new truck picked vehicle wanted little haggling agreed price wrote check payment plus tax license told 'd back evening pick truck returned , wait hour finance guy could get finally got , everything went smoothly started adding numbers discovered miscalculated tax license 150 said needed another 150 said already agreed price problem , n't giving money finance guy brought manager duty proceeded give hard time reminded customer n't think treated like n't back could forget whole deal made smart remark told could stick , snatched back check left needless say , pleased turn events early next morning got call general sales manager wanting know happened related story asked anything could change mind told gave truck free probably still would n't take , dealers town , repeat customer learn treat customers , etc , etc still pretty steamed whole affair gave line hating lose customer would try find solution , etc , etc told bother , thanks , 'd go somewhere else couple hours later , owner dealership called , , etc , etc , etc , said would cover 150 plus knock another 400 price truck told 'd think gave private , direct phone number , secretary 's name , assured valued customer , etc etc etc thought hours discussed wife decided , hell pretty decent deal , called back accepted offer went back next day pick truck , received royal treatment everyone seemed know incident , even lot boy everything went smoothly new truck 30 mins , guess i'm reasonably satisfied customer however , happened first place bit shocked sales person talk like n't expect bow grovel , sure n't expect given hard time either , esp 's mistake anyway , i'm happy truck turned couple hundred dollars invoice paid first year 's license fee i'm sure whether 'll go back dealer , tho mark
mcostell oasys dt navy mil \( malcolm g costello \) subject changing oil self reply mcostell oasys dt navy mil \( malcolm g costello \) distribution usa organization carderock division , nswc , bethesda , md lines 35 rec autos , boyle cactus org \( craig boyle \) writes xin article 1qgi8einnhs5 skeena ucs ubc ca yiklam unixg ubc ca \( yik chong lam \) x writes x hello , x x anyone know take bolt engine x compartment \? turn clockwise counter \? tried kind x lubricants , wd 40 , etc , still failed ! x think use electric drill \( change suitable x bit \) turn \? succeed , tighten x tight , safe without oil leak \? x n't russian car opposite threads , turn counterclockwise would get professional , may located plug trying loosen something else x x x x thank much advance x reminds first time cousin oil change car crawled , removed bolt , drained fluid , replaced bolt , carefully poured 5 quarts oil n't bother check dip stick , drove n't get far till found 'd drained 4 speed trans dumped extra 5 quarts engine \( moral craig said n't ashamed get person help first time mack costello mcostell oasys dt navy mil code 65 1 \( formerly 1720 1 \) david taylor model basin , carderock division hq nswc bethesda , md 20084 5000 phone \( 301 \) 227 2431 \(
bmoss grinch sim es com \( brent woody moss \) subject changing oil self keywords n nntp posting host 130 187 200 5 organization evans sutherland computer corp , salt lake city , ut distribution usa lines 26 article 1993apr15 8797 magnus acs ohio state edu , sorlin magnus acs ohio state edu \( steven j orlin \) writes article 1993apr15 cbnewsj cb att com rdb1 cbnewsj cb att com \( ronald j deblock jr \) writes avoid problems entirely installing oil drain valve place bolt one cars leaks 210 , 000 miles \( combined miles cars \) yes , someone would problem draining oil parking lot reach underneath , turn valve , forget trip home less likelyhood wrench personally recommend , installing 'special' locking drain plug keep vandals away \) steve worried someone stealing oil also finally decided drain plug welded shut works great ! figure add three four quarts oil light comes every month 's good better old wives tale changing oil filter every 3000 miles works , must say
drew kinglear cs colorado edu \( drew eckhardt \) subject changing oil self keywords n nntp posting host kinglear cs colorado edu organization university colorado boulder distribution usa lines 27 article 1993apr15 8797 magnus acs ohio state edu sorlin magnus acs ohio state edu \( steven j orlin \) writes article 1993apr15 cbnewsj cb att com rdb1 cbnewsj cb att com \( ronald j deblock jr \) writes avoid problems entirely installing oil drain valve place bolt one cars leaks 210 , 000 miles \( combined miles cars \) yes , someone would problem draining oil parking lot reach underneath , turn valve , forget trip home cars drain radiators , 've never seen heard vandal opening one imagine would even lower risk oil plug crawl car open car vandals usually real traditional methods , things n't get dirty , like keying car , dumping sand , sugar gas tank , , etc boycott usl novell absurd anti lawsuit drew eckhardt condemn colorado amendment two drew cs colorado edu use linux , fast , flexible , free 386 unix
cm cci632 cci com \( carl mercer \) subject 1986 mazda forsale keywords 1986 , 323 , pioneer dx 680 organization northern telecom , inc network application systems distribution lines 34 sale mazda 323 1986 mazda 323 white exterior , grey interior 75 , 000 miles interior good condition exterior good condition pioneer dx 680 car stereo cd player 18 fm presets , 6 removable faceplate seperate component speakers professionally mounted doors car well maintained wax often keep interior clean good running car solid body \( rust thru , tiny spots surface rust see spot touch \) stereo makes car mechanical problems i'm looking 900 00 firm car average wholesale value 900 00 without stereo stereo cost 500 00 last july interested , call email carl mercer cm cci com \( 716 \) 654 \( 716 \) 359 evening
corp hp com \( ken lui \) subject license plates organization hewlett packard company lines 16 distribution na nntp posting host corp hp com article 1993apr14 marshall wvnet edu marshall wvnet edu writes hi , i'm interested getting list license plate numbers anyone listing 'd appreciate getting copy thanks ! go dmv ask listing although n't know may actually buy copy , use perusal california , listing license plates run 3 volumes , 1 5 thick hope 're asking ken kenneth k f lui , corp hp com 3000 hanover street corporate administrative information systems palo alto , ca usa core application technologies 1 \( 415 \) 857 fax 1 \( 415 \) 852
ak296 yfn ysu edu \( john r daker \) subject changing oil self , another dealer service scam organization st elizabeth hospital , youngstown , oh lines 21 reply ak296 yfn ysu edu \( john r daker \) nntp posting host yfn ysu edu previous article , bmoss grinch sim es com \( brent woody moss \) says worried someone stealing oil also finally decided drain plug welded shut works great ! figure add three four quarts oil light comes every month 's good better old wives tale changing oil filter every 3000 miles works , must say thing drain plug reasons wondering filled though welded hood shut also fear somebody might steal air filter dod 650 darkman significant problems face cannot solved level thinking created albert einstein eternal champion
welty cabot balltown cma com \( richard welty \) subject rec autos welcome new reader keywords monthly posting reply welty balltown cma com organization new york state institute sebastian cabot studies expires thu , 20 may 1993 04 00 05 gmt lines 269 archive name rec autos part1 recent changes , 15 march 1993 addition alt autos rpw welcome rec autos article sent automatically month , contains general description purpose automotive newsgroups , suggested guidelines discussions keywords posting' always appear make killing article easy users kill facilities article posted autos groups , followups directed rec autos n't understand means , ask system administrator help , least copies documentation failing , please subscribe newsgroup news announce newusers read documentation provided introduction rec autos newsgroup hierarchy rec autos tech intended technical discussions automobiles , design , construction , diagnosis , service discussions largely inappropriate , especially sale ads rec autos sport intended discussion legal , organized competition involving automobiles technical discussions appropriate insofar apply competition vehicles discussion either two viewpoints , spectator participant , encouraged arguments sports cars largely inappropriate , discussions sale ads inappropriate unless competition vehicles equipment discussions illegal events marginal one probably avoid advocating breaking law \( remember , fbi reads usenet ! \) rec autos driving intended discussions related driving automobiles also , must discuss 55 vs 65 , radar detectors , insert pet driving peeve , rec autos vw intended discussion issues related use ownership automobiles manufactured \( includes , audis , seats , etc \) created grounds info vw mailing list successful presumed existence group appropriate create many groups cover many different groups specific individual created demonstration sufficient interest , via avenue mailing list rec audio car properly part rec autos hierarchy , however , correct place discussion automotive audio equipment , mentioned rec autos antique intended discussion older cars \( usually 25 years old , although hard fast rule \) alt part hierarchy , also potential interest rec autos reader gatewayed moderated mailing list , serious discussion modifying developing performance vehicles alt autos rod n custom also part hierarchy devoted peculiar american hobby customizing older cars alt autos discussion popular hobby , rec autos intended capture discussion automotive topics crossposting crossposting occurs one newsgroup name included newsgroups line article header articles appear newsgroups listed crossposting one misunderstood misused facilities usenet post group feel article appropriate never crosspost reach particular audience distinction subtle , important radar detector articles , example , less appropriate rec autos almost never appropriate sci electronics rec ham radio , fact might want reach audience sci electronics rec ham radio adequate justification posting either group crossposting rec autos groups usually inappropriate find , consider whether truly advisable , sending article consider setting followup point one newsgroup feel must crosspost crossposting rec autos misc consumers best particular flame wars speed limit us use radar detectors never crossposted groups readers sci electronics rec radio could n't care less police radar radar detector arguments go endlessly rec autos excellent idea check newsgroups followup lines articles posting followup particular , wary posting misc test , rec arts startrek , talk bizarre , combination three life save may distribution field header news article allows \( partially \) control article goes called distribution field may useful many reasons also serve reminder news large widespread system distribution rec autos fairly extensive writing , automotive newsgroups known reach europe , australia , new zealand , locations japan mind , offer following hints use distribution field article headers , article content 1 \) please take care send sale ads ford new jersey france california doubt anyone either place care , except girlfriend , strange reason likes \( 4 door , \) 2 \) posting technical questions , please include market car manufactured example , number differences european market ford escort us market escort likewise , early alfa reached us fuel injection european market cars usually got carbs \( often \) differences important readers make situation clear failure lead pointless flame wars significant spread misinformation 3 \) careful capacities specifications posting us get mix metric english system values , whereas europe almost entirely metric system future edition monthly posting contain list commonly used abbreviations may known places rec autos reaches cuts ways let us parochial 4 \) use distribution field limit article goes , possible within north america , values na \( north america \) , \( canada \) , usa may used addition , two letter state abbreviations us supported cases e g wanted send article new york new jersey , could put ny , nj distribution field note multiple , comma separated values legal distribution fields vary widely , however , check local sysadmin find likely supported area dangers amplify warning distribution section article wary making foolish assumptions cars , tires , etc true 1973 buick engine may quite utterly wrong 1976 honda engine headlight laws sweden decidedly different idaho need adequate specification ask question , please give reasonable amount information e g , question honda , please specify year , model , engine size , etc otherwise , answers question may quite useless concerning lemons one time another , every auto manufacturer manufactured lemon two even honda admits please n't waste everyone 's time announcing world x' automobile terrible , x' automobiles terrible , one ever buy car x' company articles worse useless , cause substantial wasted bandwidth carrying little useful information concerning flames much might wish , flame free newsgroup something likely never occur guidelines flames deal \( list flame prone topics follows next section posting \) post something truly obnoxious inflammatory , n't imagine minute including words work wo n't , 'll get exactly deserve 're going flame , 're likely get away cite fact maybe well known reference one likely believe bald , unsupported assertions careful choose insult consider insulting anyone asking question bad idea post question end phrase like send email , n't read much better idea end question send email , sufficient interest 'll summarize results later posting may miss posted responses answering question someone wants hop yugo , n't tell get mustang either silent , give useful advice someone wants advice defending speeding ticket , n't tell obey law next time 's offensive , guilt proven , n't directly address original question general , n't post order see words print , n't post order enjoy feeling smug self righteous inflammatory topics certain topics considered discussion certainly ok , new , factual information welcome , extremely tiresome , may get person posts ignored altogether topics naturally inflammatory difficult impossible meaningful discussion topics include following 1 \) 55mph speed limit us pro con 2 \) discussions morality legality sale usage radar detectors 3 \) discussions radar detector best 4 \) discussions sports car \( one reason rec autos sport group everyone would argue constitutes \) 5 \) disputes whether us federal law protects driver 's right operate radar detector 6 \) discussions 7 \) bumper stickers license plates 8 \) insert nationality cars terrible 9 \) kind car maxwell smart drive \? complete , accurate answer added commonly asked questions article also posted monthly , please n't waste bandwidth topic rpw please direct comments suggestions article welty cabot balltown cma com richard welty 518 393 7228 welty cabot balltown cma com ``nothing good ever reported full rotation race car either pitch roll axis'' carroll smith
welty cabot balltown cma com \( richard welty \) subject rec autos frequently asked consumer automotive questions keywords monthly posting reply welty balltown cma com organization new york state institute sebastian cabot studies expires thu , 20 may 1993 04 04 03 gmt lines 508 archive name rec autos article one pair articles containing commonly asked automotive questions article contains questions geared automotive enthusiast , crossposted misc consumers rpw changes 14 april 1993 revised brake fluid section , non silicone dot 5 fluids apparently available rpw commonly asked automotive questions tire questions q funny numbers sides tires mean \? typically , see something like 195 195 overall width tire millimeters , tread usually narrower 60 indicates height tire relative overall width example tire height 0 60 195 117 mm 14 wheel diameter inches also special tires called tires three digit metric wheel diameter designations , like 390 , millimeters r means radial , h speed rating indicating highest speed tire , properly inflated carrying appropriate load , may safely operate common speed ratings \( \) , \( \) , h \( 130mph \) , v \( \) recent changes method specifying tire sizes move speed rating different part designation may therefore find designations like 195 85 indicates per tire load associated speed rating exceeding load continuous operation rated speed dangerous practice follows table showing number corresponding maximum per tire loads load index 50 51 88 89 112 113 145 149 157 max load \( kg \) 190 195 560 580 1120 1150 3250 note usual mass vs weight confusion occurs table cases , letters p lt may found front tire size lt designation indicates light truck , p designation indicates passenger car letter given , application tire passenger car usage far know , letters appear us market lt designation interest owners light trucks utility vehicles owner passenger vehicle , meaningful difference tire p designation one designation aspect ratio omitted , probably 80 , may 78 tires ms \( mud snow \) designation may speed rating reduced 20 km h \( \) additional set ratings tires temperature , traction , temperature traction graded , b , c \( best c worst \) numeric rating values limited value , assigned somewhat arbitrarily tire manufacturers thus useful comparing different brands tires q car tires funny size designation 185 put normal tires car \? tires called trx tires devised michelin somewhat different design , incompatible normal tires michelin used different diameter wheel could mounted wrong type wheel \( conventional tires could mounted trx type wheels \) need different wheels put normal tire car barely possible fit normal tires trx wheels , horribly dangerous \( tires may simply peel rims corner , possibly blow high speed \) trx type tires becoming hard find addition michelin , avon makes suitable tires goodyear apparently discontinued line trx tires q rotate side side , rotate one side car \? car tire manufacturers differing views subject many say swapping left right hand sides car ok \( group includes michelin goodyear \) others \( example , nokia \) void warranties swapping done best advice read tire manual carefully rotating tires , stick manufacturer 's recommendations q many snow tires buy , buy 2 , end car put \? short , 4 , ends explain , many drivers areas n't get excessive snow n't drive \( \) snow conditions get away two snows drive wheels , circumstances dangerous practice rear wheel drive car , choose able start car going \( function rear axle \) stopping turning car \( function front axle \) front wheel drive car , start , stop , turn front end primary risk putting snow tires front put brakes going downhill , run serious risk going downhill backwards radar detectors speed limits q n't comments radar detectors speed limits q posting \? questions detectors speed limits crossposted misc consumers rec autos always start long , tedious , pointless flame wars want talk either topics , please subscribe rec autos alt flame keep safety equipment q airbags really work \? preliminary statistics suggest following airbags work much better belts good 3 point belts alone work much better airbags alone , airbags 3 point belts work slightly better 3 point belts alone con airbags designs tend burn driver 's hands venting explosion occurs inside bag , designs \( \) may knock driver 's hands wheel , making retention control vehicle bag difficult brake questions q always need get rotors disk brakes turned \? always wants specific conditions mandate turning replacing rotors shops try make little extra money replacing rotors often strictly necessary rotors warped warped , lightly grooved , need replace turn note also rotors \( rotors many hondas good example \) narrow begin practical turn must replaced become thin , warped , badly grooved q tell downshift braking slow car really good idea \? used good idea , back days mediocre , fade prone drum brakes modern disc brake equipped cars , use downshifting slow car really necessary , except cases long , steep downhill runs otherwise , modern disc brakes adequate stop passenger car circumstances , much cheaper repair clutch linings hand , many standard driver 's license tests usa still specify driver tested downshift braking suggest taking us driver 's test , either 1 \) learn smoothly \( takes time practice \) 2 \) borrow car automatic take test q often replace brake fluid \? probably often traditional brake fluids tend absorb water water corrode internal parts brake system also lower boiling point fluid dot 3 type older fluids dot 4 dot 5 newer specifications principal differences wet dry boiling points dry boiling point important fresh brake fluid , wet boiling point important older brake fluid dot 3 fluids lowest wet dry boiling point requirements dot 4 fluids better boiling point requirements dot 5 fluids best boiling point requirements \( dot 5 fluids clearly superior see next q details \) requirements imply dot 4 fluids better dot 3 fluids , may specific cases dot 3 fluid preferable , mostly competition applications otherwise , dot 4 type fluids offer much improved brake pedal feel replacement year recommended dot 4 fluids , although agressive drivers may profit changing fluid frequently , least bleeding modest amount fluid brake calipers fairly regularly q dot 5 brake fluids \? breaks two parts dot 5 specification looks excellent performance , first dot 5 fluids silicone based silicone fluids tricky proposition unlike dot 3 dot 4 fluids , absorb water may sound like feature , problem water present pools systems , interfering braking performance metals spot occuring water tend downwards braking system brake calipers , corrosion occurs phenomenon , essential converting silicone empty entire brake system flush throughly beforehand even recommend replacing rubber parts brake system converting silicone fluids two issues come silicone fluids 1 \) difficult pour cleanly \( , without air bubbles \) , interferes getting good brake pedal feel , 2 \) generally much higher boiling points dot 4 fluids , high temperature failure modes indistinguishable effect boiling dot 4 fluids silicone fluids may make sense street car applications , certainly recommended high performance driving applications , economics questionable street use recently become aware new fluids meet dot 5 standard contain fluids appear reasonably compatible older dot 3 dot 4 fluids , little information time q abs available cars i'm looking , costs worth \? cut dried answer therefore , answer quite long order cover pros cons short answer abs costs , initially , maintain , generally work better \( say , driver extensive experience high performance driving techniques \) , may require obsolete braking techniques like pump braking case long answer abs works wheels car , looking signs locked brakes may may able able distinguish different wheels \( several systems market \) cannot detect impending lockup \( would really want ideal world \) , existence lockup sensors used vary less well designed sensors sensitive tire size , brake pad material , may cease function properly owner original equipment oe equivalent components sensors detect lockup , abs system responds brakes \( either individually , , depending system \) driver keeps foot firmly planted , abs end cycling locked states \( sensor existed could detect impending lockup , could sit right point , maximum braking effect achieved \) often felt brake pedal , system cycles percentage time brakes truly engaged called typically abs system 40 dry pavement , trained driver beat duty cycle quite reliably using technique called threshold braking wet pavement , braking abs threshold braking nearly every time unfortunately , mud snow , often maximum braking effect brakes locked audi , manufacturers producing abs equipped cars , seen fit provide disable switch abs system particularly important feature abs preserves steering control case simply , braking near limit turn wheel , abs release brakes sees steering triggered lockup , back percentage time brakes applied braking distances accordingly important caution abs cannot exceed maximum theoretical braking force given situation start sliding glare ice , n't expect abs system help much coefficient friction changed presence abs system car far goes , addition potential restrictions 've listed , worry following 1 \) parts costs much higher oe master cylinder obscure european sedan lists 185 , oe master cylinder abs equipped version car lists 1000 manufacturers explicitly forbid use dot 5 \( silicone \) brake fluids abs equipped vehicles potential cost replacement brake system components , regular \( suggest annual \) replacement brake fluid becomes important q threshold braking business \? normally , 'd put consumers q , recent publicity number accidents involving police drivers abs equipped chevy suggests section needed rpw threshold braking technique practiced serious high performance drivers made habit , replaces pedal lock 'em up' panic habit entirely , much prefered basically , premise tires generate maximum braking force started slide , wheels lock entirely drivers threshold brake learn feel feels like , learn search hit application brake pedal many cars , feel near threshold pedal starts firm depress case , ca n't hear tires whine bit , 're near threshold car abs , often pedal system starts cycling driver backs pedal tad felt , close threshold 'll probably achieve better stopping distances punched let abs take recently , rash publicity number accidents , one death , involving police cars equipped abs systems police departments question quickly blamed new abs systems , according autoweek magazine , seems clear problem lack training none involved officers recent performance driving training reason believe drivers reacted brake pedal , old discredited technique stabbing releasing brake pedal , goal try get brakes back failing hydraulic system think minute , 'll realize pump braking must cut effective operation working brake system least 1 2 , cut 40 duty cycle abs system much , giving brakes wrong reason threshold braking advantage effective useful technique regardless whether car abs fear failed hydraulic system , one two pedal sufficient gas questions q high octane gasoline help \? maybe , maybe cars knock sensors , adjust engine timing turbocharger boost suit gasoline used cars , however , use cheapest gas makes car run well check owner 's manual details car needs q car made leaded gasoline unleaded gas hurt \? possible unleaded gas may slightly increase valve wear , although amoco oil company argues otherwise actual increase valve wear almost , however , modern leaded gasolines actually contain little lead , however , check owner 's manual many cars early 1970s actually require leaded gasoline q fuel treatments help \? kind use \? n't winter , good idea use dry gas however , may harmful fuel injection systems never use additive containing methanol \( sometimes called methyl alcohol \) additives may damage fuel systems cars carbs almost certainly damage cars fuel injection manufacturer 's opinions vary additives containing ethanol \( sometimes called ethyl alcohol \) car fuel injection , check owner 's manual car using manufacturers consider 10 ethanol acceptable gasoline additives isopropyl alcohol \( \) , petroleum fine fuel injected cars occasional bottle fuel injector cleaner helpful cars fuel , although many premium gasolines contain job brands fuel injector cleaners contain ethanol methanol always check ingredients putting anything gas tank small number particularly good additives noticeably expensive run mill ones , work much , much better among chevron , redline sl 1 , , bg bottle one , every six months , highly recommended q detergent gasolines \? quality detergent packages gasolines varies somewhat bmw instituted testing program , gasoline brands pass test may advertise fact stickers indicating passage test beginning appear fuel pumps gas stations gasolines used , fuel injector cleaners probably optional use bmw approved gasolines keep clean engine clean , may clean motor bad valve deposits lubrication questions q numbers letters motor oil designation mean \? several different items encoded two letter code indicating type detergent package manufacturer uses oil looks like se , sf , cd codes gasoline engine applications c codes diesel engine applications second letter assigned sequence new levels protection developed thus sf considered better se , se considered better sd , forth noticeable designation oil weight either single number \( e g , 30 weight \) pair numbers separated letter w \( e g , \) latter type much commonly used days , type automobile manufacturers specify operators manuals first number designation \( 10w \) apparent viscosity oil cold w stands second number \( 30 \) viscosity oil hot trick oil n't actually get thicker \( turn 10 weight 30 weight \) gets hotter actually happening oil cold , viscosity cold 10 weight oil gets hotter , n't get thin fast 10w oil would time temperature , viscosity hot 30 weight oil note numbers actually specify ranges 10w oils exactly viscosity cold , 30 weight oils viscosity hot note also novel behaviour multi grade oils caused additives , reported sole exception castrol gtx , 10w40 oils retain multi grade characteristics well time , , 20w50 oils work well , though q places good \? adequate work , quite incompetent ones let buyer beware , watch work , make sure n't oil drain plug , keep hand wallet times q oil additives like slick 50 good \? slick 50 ptfe based additives many come onto market recently different based additives around since early 50 's ptfe chemical name teflon \( tm \) , trademark owned dupont general , auto manufacturers recommend use products usenet responses questions additives favorable \( slight increase mpg application , smoother revving \) long term results \( whether ptfe additives effective 5k miles \) debatable manufacturers \( saab \) claim either product engine flush application causes deterioration oil seals eventual leakage bmw owners reported death valve seals shortly addition slick 50 cars writer slick 50 dealer \( ! \) slick 50 used japanese motors , may clog oil return passages engine otherwise , known reports damage caused ptfe additives hand , slick 50 customers world q synthetic oils really work \? yes , specifically , auto accept , disagree extremely long oil change intervals claimed oil manufacturers auto manufacturers recommend continue change oil intervals recommended owners manual car even decide try longer intervals , least change oil filter regular intervals , get dirty conventional oils synthetic gear lubricants manual transmissions another matter entirely , redline , highly regarded effective mobil 1 synthetic gear lube gets mixed reviews , however q manufacturers specifying longer longer oil change intervals often change oil \? depends drive car always \( nearly always \) gets warmed , n't drive hard keep revs , manufacturer 's recommendation probably fine , however , drive hard , drive high revs , alternatively , drive supermarket n't get temperature , may wish change oil much often , perhaps 3000 mile intervals \( given manufacturers specifying 7500 mile intervals \) n't drive car much \( say 7500 miles year \) , probably want change oil every six months anyway storing car winter , change oil storing change oil bring storage misc questions q car timing belt hear bad things happen break 's story \? depends internal design motor early ford escorts , example , suffer severe valve damage belt breaks , newer cars require tow installation new belt honda motors damaged , others replacement interval specified car , change belt least every 60 , 000 miles cars may require frequent replacement ask dealer independent mechanic also , ask related repairs take place time \( example , ford escorts suffer valve damage also timing belt driven water pump , known seize , destroying timing belt , causes major valve damage side effect replacing timing belt ignoring water pump costly mistake \) q would anyone stupid enough design motor self timing belt breaks \? performance reasons compromising piston design valves pistons requires compression ratio engine reduced significantly likely avoid valve damage economy cars performance oriented vehicles q causes acceleration \? final report national highway , transportation , safety administration concluded acceleration could caused mechanical failure vehicle question time consistent physical evidence report goes conclude vehicle operator probably cause richard welty 518 393 7228 welty cabot balltown cma com ``nothing good ever reported full rotation race car either pitch roll axis'' carroll smith
chrisb lynx ps uci edu \( chris barrus \) subject warning \( please read \) nntp posting host lynx ps uci edu reply ejv2j virginia edu 's message thu , 15 apr 1993 02 42 46 gmt organization dept physics , univ california , irvine lines 15 unfortunately , 've got another story add girlfriend driving west l , got rock pulling away scary thing rock heavy enough put decent sized dent door '72 pretty much solid detriot iron couple inches higher would gone window chris chris barrus chrisb lynx ps uci edu aol com 1972 buick , peace superior automotive power ! sacred cows make best hamburger hoffman
jchen wind bellcore com \( jason chen \) subject militech nntp posting host wind bellcore com reply jchen ctt bellcore com organization bell communications research lines 34 saw interesting product ny auto show , would like hear comments militech \( tm \) yet another oil additive demonstration product really impressive , n't cheat setup demo fairly simple cone shaped rotor half submerged small oil sink , filled motor oil rotor powered electronic motor metal pad pressed rotor using torque wrench rotor stopped friction torque needed stop rotor read torque wrench militech added , rotor stopped 60 lb ft torque \( pick brand oil , difference \) militech added oil , rotor could stopped even 120 lb ft torque good part even salesman emptied oil sink , still could stopped rotor thin film remained say need add per quart oil every 15k miles 16 oz bottle 25 still doubts product really great , little known \? salesman said widely used military n't believe demo impressive , bought bottle common sense anyone heard actually used product \? real \? going auto show , please visit stand second floor see find demo hoax jason chen
subject ford sho engine parts ! david bonds cutting hou tx us \( david bonds \) reply david bonds cutting hou tx us \( david bonds \) distribution world organization cutting edge houston , tx 713 466 1525 lines 21 w work internal engine components sho engine w w good thing , w w 25k miles cam sensor went south 2 different ford w dealers tried 5 6 different fixes , none worked finally w took street local mechanic guy reads w code engine computer , says bad cam sensor , fixes w hour friend mine sensors damaged flood waters , ford sensors registering bad father short circut via paper clip method \( sure exact technique \) , read codes service engine light flashes generated came damaged sensors , went back ford , told wrong fixed car bunch bozos cutting edge bbs \( cutting hou tx us \) pcboard 14 5a system houston , texas , usa 1 713 466 1525 running uupcb
welty cabot balltown cma com \( richard welty \) subject rec autos automotive mailing lists keywords monthly posting reply welty balltown cma com organization new york state institute sebastian cabot studies expires thu , 20 may 1993 04 01 03 gmt lines 166 archive name rec autos part2 automotive mailing lists \( electronic mail , \) last updated 3 17 93 new lotus , exotic cars list subscription info added portland , list , list , triumph list rpw number electronic mailing lists network devoted various special automotive topics best knowledge , lists appearing open membership policies policy list mailing lists mailing lists provide separate addresses administrative queries general mail separate administrative addresses exist , listed , general addresses appropriate requests audi \( send requests quattro request aries east sun com \) solo \( send requests request cs utah edu \) bmw \( send requests bmw request balltown cma com regular digest forms available \) british cars \( send requests british cars request cs utah edu \) buick grand national regal \( send requests request monsanto com \) camaro firebird \( gm f body \) \( send requests f body request boogie ebay sun com \) \( send requests bryan pegasus mitre org \) corvettes two lists first competition oriented list , second general nature \( told \) competition \( send requests vettes request com \) general \( send requests vettes request compaq com \) datsun \( send requests datsun request cs utah edu \) dodge stealth mitsubishi \( send requests stealth req jim uucp wupost wustl edu \) eclipse talon laser \( send requests ! talon request radius com \) electric vehicles \( send requests info ev request claremont edu \) exotic cars \( send requests exotic cars request sol asl hitachi com \) fabrication \( race cars \) \( send requests request pms ford com \) international \( discussion scouts , pickups , etc \) \( send requests request balltown cma com \) italian cars \( send requests italian cars request balltown cma com regular digest forms available \) hondas listserv brownvm brown edu use standard listserv subscription procedure mail message body listserv sub honda l real name subject line header hot rods \( send requests request dixie com \) land \( send requests land rover owner request stratus com \) lotus \( send requests lotus cars request netcom com \) \( send requests mazda list request ms uky edu \) miata listserv jhunix hcf jhu edu use standard listserv subscription procedure mail message body listserv sub miata real name subject line header \( send requests merkur request uucp \) mopar \( mostly high performance chrysler , dodge , plymouth products send requests mopar casbah acns nwu edu \) mr2 \( send requests mr2 interest request com \) mustangs two lists , first mustangs 1973 , second mustangs 1980 nobody cares mustang ii , n't ask classic \( send requests classic mustangs request fc hp com \) modern \( send requests mustangs request cup hp com \) 4x4 \( send requests request ai gtri gatech edu \) porsches \( send requests request com \) portland , oregon activities \( send requests request reed edu \) rally \( send requests rally request stratus com \) rx7 \( send requests jjn att com \) saabs \( send requests saab network mhs compuserve com \) saturn \( send requests saturn request net \) school \( high performance driving schools \) \( send requests school request balltown cma com \) sentra se r , g20 , \( send requests se r request pencom com \) \( send requests request com \) toyota \( send requests toyota request quack sac ca us \) triumph v8 , \( send requests jtc ccwf cc utexas edu \) volvos \( requests request rochester edu \) wheel wheel racing \( forum race drivers , workers , crew , send requests request abingdon sun com \) z cars \( nissan datsun \) \( send requests z car request dixie com \) richard welty 518 393 7228 welty cabot balltown cma com ``nothing good ever reported full rotation race car either pitch roll axis'' carroll smith
welty cabot balltown cma com \( richard welty \) subject rec autos rec autos archive server keywords monthly posting reply welty balltown cma com organization new york state institute sebastian cabot studies lines 10 archive name rec autos part3 automotive articles archive server automotive archive server process , presently available richard welty 518 393 7228 welty cabot balltown cma com ``nothing good ever reported full rotation race car either pitch roll axis'' carroll smith
welty cabot balltown cma com \( richard welty \) subject rec autos frequently asked questions keywords monthly posting reply welty balltown cma com organization new york state institute sebastian cabot studies expires thu , 20 may 1993 04 03 03 gmt lines 251 archive name rec autos article one pair articles containing commonly asked automotive questions article contains questions general consumer interest , broken facilitate crossposting misc consumers rpw last change 8 february 1993 ct permits radar detector usage , new tire traction q rpw commonly asked questions radar questions q radar detectors illegal \? us , currently district columbia prohibit usage radar detectors new york prohibits use large trucks canada , illegal manitoba , ontario , quebec , newfoundland pei \( prince edward island \) apparently illegal , , europe legislation would make illegal pending many jurisdictions chances legislation passing varies great deal q radar detector detectors used \? really work \? usage spreading rapidly initially used canada , appearing new york virginia unsafe assume use connecticut c work detecting certain frequency radiated many currently available super het radar detectors brands detector radiate strongly others , thus likely spotted new radar detectors becoming available may detected current generation detector detectors note detector may spotted one devices turned q vascar \? kind radar \? vascar nothing fancy time speed distance computer depends operator pressing buttons target vehicle passes radar signals emitted vascar system q ka band radar \? used \? radar detector able handle \? ka band recently made available fcc use us called photo radar installations installations , low powered beam aimed across road 45 degree angle direction traffic , picture taken vehicles radar unit determines violation speed limit tickets mailed owner vehicle low power 45 degree angle , many people believe radar detector cannot give reasonable warning ka band radar unit , although manufacturers radar detectors added capability anyway number locales photo radar use limited , question legality units best advice learn photo radar units look like , keep track used \( else , n't speed \) q radar jammers work \? legal \? quick answer , usa detailed answer cheap radar jammers work well jammers work expensive usually property military jammers major violation regulations federal communications commission usa driving technique vehicle dynamics questions q understeer oversteer \? understeer oversteer terms describing behaviour car cornering near \( limit , \) drivers normally drive hard enough terms descriptive situations encounter simply put , tell whether car wants go straight corner \( steer , \) wants turn corner \( \) understeer commonly designed production cars untrained drivers , inadvertantly traveling fast , wo n't get trouble understeer may also induced using much throttle corner oversteer designed performance oriented cars may induced lifting throttle \( trailing throttle oversteer , \) extreme cases , lifting throttle may induce much oversteer car reacts spinning technical details corner speed , tires car develop called slip angle angular difference direction car traveling direction steering wheel directing car travel understeer , front wheels greater slip angle rear wheels oversteer , rear wheels greater slip angle front wheels q rev matched downshift \? downshifting , engine must rotating faster lower gear higher gear however , downshift , normally declutch lift foot throttle , revs drop rather increase rev matched downshift , blip throttle engaging clutch engine already new speed results much smoother faster downshift q heel toe mean \? heel toe technique used rev matched downshift braking normally challenging , need right foot brake throttle called heel toe use one end foot brake , throttle match revs downshift many modern cars misnomer often must use ball foot brake right side throttle note race car drivers skip clutch , use left foot brake right foot throttle , accomplishing thing q double clutch downshifting \? right foot , left foot one three things nothing , declutch , declutch twice reason twice match speeds two shafts transmission speed engine usually coupled rev matching , engine neutral clutch engaged , throttle shafts transmission speed procedure follows \( 0 \) declutch \( 1 \) move lever neutral \( 2 \) engage clutch \( 3 \) match revs \( 4 \) declutch \( 5 \) move lever next lower gear \( 6 \) engage clutch sounds like lot work , practice becomes natural problem double clutching solves normally function within gearbox transmissions without synchros worn synchros , double clutching makes much easier shift basically , double clutch well , using synchros generally unnecessary street cars synchros good condition q numbers acceleration 0 60 , 1 4 mile , , slalom times auto magazines really mean \? may compared \? short , 1 \) much magazines want believe , 2 \) almost never detail acceleration numbers \( 0 60mph 1 4 mile times us \) may vaguely compared long come source testing procedures vary much magazine magazine comparing road track number car driver number quite pointless keep mind , , variation applies driver driver street driver major \( often major \) part equation vary , even n't , figures really tests stock tires change radically tire compounds change make assumptions comparative handling , say , two sports sedans based numbers suggest without value , however excellent educational tool driving schools simply limited value comparison anything except tires slalom times slightly useful test small parts automobile 's transient response however , also heavily influenced stock rubber car , test many corners car 's envelope tell need know making buying decision example , n't tell rear end car road suddenly goes car adjustable suspension , tests usually done setting , may quite unsuitable daily driving list caveats could go page page q buddy claims wide tires n't make difference , according freshman physics textbook , ca n't ever accelerate corner 1 0g know 's talking \? 1 \) short n't got clue 2 \) detail equations friction used freshman physics textbooks presume surfaces smooth , dry non , none properly apply tire traction except case stone cold tire dry pavement far proper operating temperature pavement never smooth always irregular greater lesser extent tires , really dry solid \( rubber substance natural form liquid , coerced chemical magic \) , match surface pavement vehicle traveling tire operating temperature , grip actually generated shear stresses inside deformed rubber , anything even remotely resembling friction freshman physics sense term colder tire relative operating temperature , closer behaviour traditional concept friction much hotter proper operating temperature , likely possibility part tire actually liquid , mostly like happen deep tread , causing characteristic \( latter , though , almost completely unlikely happen normal street driving , unless 're competition driver lot high speed track driving , n't worry \) tire traction completely domain simple friction , obey freshman physics equation thus accelerate 1 0g race cars corner brake 1 0g simple friction apply , actually possible different sized contact patches generate differing amounts grip actual analysis tire behavior would require techniques finite element analysis , due complexity mechanism misc questions q name acronym stand \? list names commonly asked careful soliciting meanings names misinformation net particular , never ask rec humor want useful result saab b , swedish airplane corporation alfa , automobile manufacturing company fiat di , italian automobile manufacturers turin bmw , motor works mg morris garage q vw porsche \? porsche publicly held company , controlled porsche families porsche extensive business dealings vw audi , causes confusion since currently porsche financial difficulty , possibility mercedes vw may interested purchasing company near future , speculation time richard welty 518 393 7228 welty cabot balltown cma com ``nothing good ever reported full rotation race car either pitch roll axis'' carroll smith
welty cabot balltown cma com \( richard welty \) subject rec autos automotive mailing lists set keywords monthly posting reply welty balltown cma com organization new york state institute sebastian cabot studies lines 116 archive name rec autos new article 4 february 1993 rpw many people want set mailing lists favorite automotive topics rather fewer know article provide essential information standard unix systems shell script examples alias file setups included presently run sparc 2 balltown cma com number mailing lists note set automotive mailing list , please let know request address list rec autos posting also inform keeper usenet list lists \( check news answers monthly posting \) first , get anywhere , need either 1 \) sysadmin , 2 \) measure assistance sysadmin also important reasonably good network connectivity seems like get everything several days anyone else , trouble getting email , network connectivity probably good enough listserv handy automated mailing list package named listserv , available several ftp servers network details installation operation listserv beyond scope article , anyone considering running large mailing list probably look listserv carefully alias file typical unix system file named usr lib aliases whichever file server mail host contains lines foo bar , baz , means email sent name host redistributed users bar , baz , thus , simplest possible email list favorite car , , , address favorite car request address couple problems noticeable one superuser edit alias file however , following , sysadmin favorite car include home misc autos favorite car list favorite car request address file specified list comma newline separated addresses file list admin 's home directory , owned list admin bounced mail still problem bounced mail usually gets distributed members list , generally considered somewhat irritating therefore , way driving school mailing list set instructive \( thanks bmw list setup , way i'm sure got \) school request welty school rebroadcast include home misc autos school list school usr local adm bin school owner school school request owner school school request 's going owner request addresses intended traps bounced mail coming network request address also serves point contact administrative duties school people send mail instead pointing addresses , points shell script rewrites headers email school broadcast \( nobody except knows name name changed protect sanity \) points actual list members shell script use follows ! bin sh cd tmp sed e ' reply d' e ' sender d' e ' d' \( echo reply 1 balltown cma com echo errors 1 request balltown cma com echo sender 1 request balltown cma com cat \) usr lib sendmail om f 1 request balltown cma com f 1 mailing list 1 rebroadcast exit 0 note script know name list name passed outside , script may used multiple lists \( run several site \) script reply , sender , lines incoming message , substitutes sender reply , adds errors 99 9 email bounce messages end sent request owner addresses header rewrite done digested lists , software around hopefully 'll able provide information future version posting richard welty \( welty balltown cma com \) richard welty 518 393 7228 welty cabot balltown cma com ``nothing good ever reported full rotation race car either pitch roll axis'' carroll smith
parr acs ucalgary ca \( charles parr \) subject dumbest automotive concepts time nntp posting host acs3 acs ucalgary ca organization university calgary , alberta lines 23 article wichitaks ncr com jhart wichitaks ncr com \( jim hart \) writes article 1993mar29 1 uncavx unca edu uncavx unca edu writes top 10 list dumbest automotive concepts ever 10 1984 dodge colt vista tachometer avail automatic trans 9 back lights corvette 're sides car ! sure would interested know year \( \) ! n't seem recall car back lights sides , much less corvette suppose could mis interpreting trying say quick comment backup lights mounted side would actually extremely useful people backing parking stalls regards , charles within span last weeks heard elements separate threads , conjoined time , struck together form new chord within hollow echoing gourd unknown net person
madman austin ibm com \( steve heracleous \) subject warning \( please read \) originator madman austin ibm com organization ibm austin lines 20 two sided problem unfortunately culture deteriorating time breeding low life 's getting worse justice system best extremely weak handle problems low abiding citizens power protect property using deadly force necessary anywhere threat imminent camaro \( pride joy \) got stolen right driveway years back persons eventually caught \( lucky ! \) trashed car another occasion , way texas florida , stopped small motel night small town somewhere florida 5 youths disturbing car , setting alarm challenging come another tenant walked 357 magnum 45 automatic respectively , vanished needless say , immediately packed left watch car jacking staged accidents deadly ! steve heracleous
jimf centerline com \( jim frost \) subject warning \( please read \) organization centerline software , inc lines 16 nntp posting host 140 239 3 202 ejv2j virginia edu \( erik velapoldi \) writes hell happening great country \? see boyhood pranks peeing bridges , 20 pound rocks \? \? ! society really stooped low \? \? make sound like behavior new n't lot pedestrian bridges curls sidewalk make kind think lot harder n't understand mentality , could n't figure move ! \( i'm glad bombed 'em \) waco wackos either \( newsgroup list trimmed significantly \) jim frost jimf centerline com
sorlin magnus acs ohio state edu \( steven j orlin \) subject changing oil self keywords n nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university distribution usa lines 16 article 1993apr15 colorado edu drew kinglear cs colorado edu \( drew eckhardt \) writes cars drain radiators , 've never seen heard vandal opening one imagine would even lower risk oil plug crawl car open car vandals usually real traditional methods , things n't get dirty , like keying car , dumping sand , sugar gas tank , , etc usually go enough places 'll see stuff happen n't think steve
b30 ingr com \( \) subject mazda rx7 parts jc whitney lines 5 reply b30 ingr com organization intergraph , al number 1 800 541 based chicago , il case need call dir assistance prices earth source car innards send free catalog
mart csri toronto edu \( mart \) subject dumbest automotive concepts time lines 36 parr acs ucalgary ca \( charles parr \) writes top 10 list dumbest automotive concepts ever 9 back lights corvette 're sides car ! sure would interested know year \( \) ! n't seem recall car back lights sides , much less corvette suppose could mis interpreting trying say quick comment backup lights mounted side would actually extremely useful people backing parking stalls ca n't think corvettes side mounted backup lights , know saab started using 15 years ago 1975 saab 99 n't , friend 's 1978 saab 99 certainly addition tail light mounted backup lights , another set integrated front turn signal assembly n't remember , saabs vintage enormous plastic growth , size national geographic magazine , sticking front fender , incorporated amber parking lights , amber side marker lights , white cornering lamps \( like american luxury cars \) aimed towards side road turn indicators , white backup lights aimed towards back car selected reverse gear glossy brochure showed front mounted backup lights useful illuminating hazards \( pot holes , kid 's toys , etc \) would run front car wheels turned backing mart l computer systems research institute university toronto toronto , canada m5s 1a4 \( 416 \) 978
ernie cray com \( ernest smith \) subject aftermarket c units originator ernie ferris lines 34 nntp posting host ferris cray com organization cray research , inc distribution usa article axon cs unc edu andrew brandt writes looked getting c installed 1987 honda crx si unit 875 plus shipping , installation like 5 1 2 hours top hunk change anyone know place aftermarket c installation \( honda c unit , third party unit \) cannot seem find anyone put third party c unit honda carolina , would prefer place nearby , references would handy thx , andy \( brandt cs unc edu \) les bartel 's comments sorry ca n't help question , comment make concerning aftermarket c units frost king frost temp \( forget \) aftermarket unit cavalier , quite unhappy fan noisy , n't put much air never aftermarket c installed vehicles ca n't trust quality performance experience les les bartel i'm going live forever let add 02 c installed ford garage work well c installed factory pickups identical mine talked people result n't know probable ford \? \? ernie smith
ernie cray com \( ernest smith \) subject aftermarket c units originator ernie ferris lines 34 nntp posting host ferris cray com organization cray research , inc distribution usa article axon cs unc edu andrew brandt writes looked getting c installed 1987 honda crx si unit 875 plus shipping , installation like 5 1 2 hours top hunk change anyone know place aftermarket c installation \( honda c unit , third party unit \) cannot seem find anyone put third party c unit honda carolina , would prefer place nearby , references would handy thx , andy \( brandt cs unc edu \) les bartel 's comments sorry ca n't help question , comment make concerning aftermarket c units frost king frost temp \( forget \) aftermarket unit cavalier , quite unhappy fan noisy , n't put much air never aftermarket c installed vehicles ca n't trust quality performance experience les les bartel i'm going live forever let add 02 c installed ford garage work well c installed factory pickups identical mine talked people result n't know problem ford \? \? ernie smith
bnr ca \( \) subject jeep experiences keywords jeep , nntp posting host organization bell northern research , ottawa , canada lines 10 looking buying 1989 jeep wondering anyone bad good experiences model much different \? looks , feels sounds like nice vehicle even thought price rather steep '89 \( 12k canadian \) bnr ca
wade nb rockwell com \( wade guthrie \) subject curious porsche drove organization rockwell international lines 43 ak954 yfn ysu edu \( albion h bowers \) writes previous article , wade nb rockwell com \( wade guthrie \) says mail sas upenn edu \( \) writes article 1993apr13 progress com , damelio progress com \( stephen d'amelio \) wrote wrote consistent pre '74 911 engine 2 2 litre \( less , depending early go \) , got power high revs \( starting slowly 3k , jumping around 5k \) narrow band '74 3 litre lot smog equipment got much power , 'd better distributed rev range bzzzt wrong answer really depends whether talking model year date manufacture instance , mine '67 , manufactured august '66 prior 1970 2 liter '70 '71 model years 2 2 liter 1972 1973 model years 2 4 liter except '73 rs 2 7 liter '74 later years easily identified new 5 mph bumpers models '74 year 2 7 except rsr 3 0 liter \( us '74 2 7 liter models \) '78 went 3 0 liter single model , sc \( think cross models \) note based model year , date manufacture stand corrected memory , mind \) rev happy behavior , earlier cars even prone 2 4 liter cars used low compression engines , suffered bit regard early 3 0 liter 2 7 liter engines also got good dose smog gear well 2 0 2 2 liter engines far away quickest lot yeah , 's trying say , really ! wade guthrie trying program ms dos like trying wade nb rockwell com shave chain saw speaking rock
tobias convex com \( allen tobias \) subject warning \( please read \) nntp posting host hydra convex com organization convex computer corporation , richardson , tx , usa x disclaimer message written user convex computer corp opinions expressed user necessarily convex lines 24 article 1993apr15 024246 8076 virginia edu ejv2j virginia edu \( erik velapoldi \) writes happened year ago washington dc beltway snot nosed drunken kids decided would really cool throw huge rocks cars overpass four five cars hit several serious injuries , sadly small girl sitting front seat one struck head one larger rocks n't recall made , think comatose month doctors n't holding hope 'd live hell happening great country \? see boyhood pranks peeing bridges , 20 pound rocks \? \? ! society really stooped low \? \? erik velapold society , known , coming apart seams ! basic reason human life devalued point killing someone big deal kid 's see hundreds murderous acts tv , abort children demand , kill sick old surprised kids drop 20 lbs rocks kill people n't care message hear life cheap !
zdem0a hgo7 hou amoco com \( donna martz \) subject braindead drivers n't look ahead keywords bad drivers organization amoco distribution usa lines 53 hhm cbnewsd cb att com \( herschel h mayo \) writes , block would passers good , well even though often stupid realize ! ! ! ! ! ! rule philosophy , n't feel particularly sorry somebody gets offed stupidity , worry idiot position cash chips , h h mayo zdem0a hgo7 hou amoco com \( donna martz \) writes well , n't mr altruism ! ! world needs , another frustrated self appointed traffic cop hhm cbnewsd cb att com \( herschel h mayo \) writes well , want stick nose car ass 50 foot semi , suppose 's neck , however , i'm going let kill bargain get frustrated somebody delaying inevitable death due less wise driving practices , tough ! ! ! well , never wrote would act described stated would block would passer would block would passer good reason prevented due traffic circumstance fail see deterring passer circumstance would way decrease chances involved accident , fatal otherwise fact , could imagine blocking would passer would actually increase chances offed involved accident , especially passer riding bumper intentionally blocking person riding bumper certainly wise driving practice , causes jam become n't mess trucks actually watch road ahead road behind ! perceive rapidly closing pack vehicles , try avoid getting caught situation usually either traffic building deal fact life , wait slow passer complete pass make way pack clear someone decides pull bumper , signal intention move right , first opportunity \( hope open jam \) feel courteous driving , alot safer actions advocate ! ! ! actually many courteous drivers road intentionally impede others someone front seems oblivious fact blocking traffic use blinker flash lights , , else fails , briefly speed slow might get message faster vehicle trying pass feel never safe ride anyone 's bumper someone intentionally blocking traffic , feel civil duty duty reason , feel deserve , least , \( sorry long \)
hagenjd wfu edu \( jeff hagen \) subject bmw 's new plant greer , sc organization wake forest university lines 8 nntp posting host ac wfunet wfu edu anyone reading message involved new bmw plant \? \( bmw corporate even net connection \? \) desperately seeking info , jeff hagen hagenjd ac wfu edu
keys starchild ncsl nist gov \( lawrence b keys \) subject warning \( please read \) organization national institute standards technology lines 44 article dg armory centerline com jimf centerline com \( jim frost \) writes ejv2j virginia edu \( erik velapoldi \) writes hell happening great country \? see boyhood pranks peeing bridges , 20 pound rocks \? \? ! society really stooped low \? \? make sound like behavior new n't lot pedestrian bridges curls sidewalk make kind think lot harder n't understand mentality , could n't figure move ! \( i'm glad bombed 'em \) waco wackos either know n't group , since brought , anyone idea n't bombed waco cult \? curious \( newsgroup list trimmed significantly \) jim frost jimf centerline com larry keys csmes ncsl nist gov oo 1990 2 0 16v fahrvergnugen forever ! fact need explain indicates probably would n't understand anyway !
cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu \( oriolefan uiuc \) subject dumbest automotive concepts time article news organization university illinois urbana lines 39 parr acs ucalgary ca \( charles parr \) writes article wichitaks ncr com jhart wichitaks ncr com \( jim hart \) writes article 1993mar29 1 uncavx unca edu uncavx unca edu writes top 10 list dumbest automotive concepts ever 10 1984 dodge colt vista tachometer avail automatic trans 9 back lights corvette 're sides car ! sure would interested know year \( \) ! n't seem recall car back lights sides , much less corvette suppose could mis interpreting trying say quick comment backup lights mounted side would actually extremely useful people backing parking stalls regards , charles within span last weeks heard elements separate threads , conjoined time , struck together form new chord within hollow echoing gourd unknown net person n't original intent reverse lights driver , could see backing \? \? \? although reverse lights sides useful telling whether cars backing perpendicular path car , n't think warnings original intents , since colored white chintan amin university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu neil peart , \( c \) 1981 quick judge , quick anger , slow understand , ignorance prejudice fear walk hand hand
nuet ke pts mot com \( keith nuetzman x3153 p7625 \) subject lois chevrolet \? summary louis chevrolet nntp posting host 145 4 54 110 reply nuet ke pts mot com organization paging wireless data group lines 13 little bit subject goes yes one \( e chevrolet motor div \) also brother gaston raced winner 1920 also seen name arthur chevrolet early teens \( 1911 \) assume related keith nuetzman , nuet ke pts mot com motorola inc paging wireless data group beach , fl see ya 500 400 yes ! ! !
cleveland freenet edu \( bill cray \) subject thinking buying intrepid good bad idea \? organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 6 nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu bought intrepid two months ago happy lots room inside even smaller engine enough power problem found small selection dealer 's lots hot sellers around
gwalker rtfm mlb fl us \( grayson walker \) subject changing oil self keywords oily bed organization , merritt island , florida distribution usa lines 9 ah , yes , big chunks solution simple sort like advice aunt always gave never scratch ear anything except elbow pieces ring , con rods , valve heads stems , reach hole block associated creation large bits pieces anything ca n't remove one hand hole block may safely left place
tquinn heartland bradley edu \( terry quinn \) subject waxing new car organization utexas mail news gateway lines 18 reply tquinn heartland bradley edu nntp posting host cs utexas edu taken delivery new gm car \( firebird \) finish assume probably since industry moved direction paints years past , used recommended owners wait 60 days wax car , paint cure dealer shop manager said also , i'm sure n't basing past tradition anyone know still recommended practice , better go ahead wax right away \( non new car wax \) newer finishes \? terry quinn hills , il tquinn heartland bradley edu compuserve internet tquinn heartland bradley edu
athena mit edu \( henry \) subject 83 tercel sunroof leaks organization massachusetts institute technology lines 14 distribution world nntp posting host 008 11 mit edu simple way sunroofs misery leaks tend old gaskets \? inadequate mechanical seals \? \? way halt rain \? thanks hk henry bruno office 617 253 \( machine \) home 617 625 \( machine \)
rmt6r faraday clas virginia edu \( roy matthew thigpen \) subject plymouth sundance dodge shadow experiences \? organization university virginia distribution usa lines 12 n't know lemons , personal experience brother 's trouble free one single repair , regular work done result stupidity stopped suddenly middle left turn busy intersection , rear ended 1989 plymouth sundance would recomend , would also like say wait six months , coming new car called neon , built way lh 's good luck
nyx cs du edu \( scott borders \) subject clear coat woes summary way remove fine scratches clear coat \? keywords clear coat paint organization university denver , dept math comp sci lines 27 clear coat really worth \? yes , showroom floor , cars deep , shine ca n't found paint jobs n't clear coated hand , seems every clear coated car 've seen road \( parking lot , etc \) fine scratches throughout paint job , alas , 1992 laser several weeks ago car professionally polished picked , showroom shine remember year ago bought several days ago took car dealership work added bonus , washed car unfortunately , whoever washed either n't get roof \( black , rest car red \) completely clean dried , used dirty towel showroom shine haze fine scratches n't really visible light hits roof particular angle , put , somewhat chance getting dealership something \? guess 'no' product market provides solution problem \? faced prospect car professionally polished hide scratches \? information , , sympathy greatly appreciated scott dealership never wash car borders nyx cs du edu borders scott tandem com
nataraja rtsg mot com \( kumaravel natarajan \) subject compact lh sedans \? nntp posting host opal12 organization motorola inc , cellular infrastructure group distribution usa lines 21 rmt6r faraday clas virginia edu \( roy matthew thigpen \) writes aas7 po cwru edu writes previous article , ubvmsd cc buffalo edu \( adam gandler \) says heard chrysler planning design process designing compact sedan line based lh platform thought full sized sedans priced , see reason could give imports even saturns serious challenge oh ! ! ! get see saturns sold dealers ! hole insist remarks like really growing tired drew kill file newsreader \? put name spencer kill file gives 10 15 less articles per day sift
ip02 ns1 cc lehigh edu \( danny phornprapha \) subject i'm getting car , need opinions organization lehigh university lines 14 30 , 000 budget i'm looking sports gt car think would best buy \? \( i'm looking specific models \) thanks , danny hey ! programmers ! danny phornprapha please consider ip02 lehigh edu bugs another endangered earth student konsultant species needing protection work \( 215 \) 758
jong halcyon com \( barking weasel \) subject rfi art clutchless shifting organization northwest nexus inc \( 206 \) 455 lines 36 schludermann sscvx1 ssc gov writes i'm wondering anybody else clutchless shifter \? 've self 200 , 000 miles , current toyota truck 've got 150k 've heard people talk damage transmission experiences suggest otherwise techniques use \? yeah n't use clutch time either 've done fords , bmw , datsun , chevy works fine ca n't think reason would damage tranny essentially synchros anyhow match engine speed tranny speed slip gear old pieces junk drove , transmission worn pumping clutch way shift , except clutchless date 've driven rabbits , , comets , fords chevy harder others shift generally higher milage smoother quicker easier shift technique ease back throttle time gently wrist back shift lever reason miss shift window , lightly press accelerator try agian 've found clutchless shifting quicker high rpms \( 4000 7000 \) also skip gears times using 1 3 5 , 1 2 4 5 sounds right usually slip throttle blip throttle wait feels like things right \( usually second \) slip gear krispy jon obviously n't know 're dealing gross jong halcyon com
roger hpscit sc hp com \( roger \) subject 86 acura integra 5 speed organization hewlett packard , santa clara , ca lines 26 1986 acura integra 5 speed 95 , 000 miles positively worst car ever owned 83 prelude 160k miles sold , still going strong religious attention maintenance oil changes etc cars driven exactly manner 1 gone two clutches \( underrated \) 2 3 sets tires \( really eats tires front even careful align \) 3 started leaking 25 30k miles 4 windshield wiper motor burned \( service note one \) 5 seek stop working radio 20k miles 6 two timing belts 7 constant error signals computer 8 finally rod bearing went 1 piston seriously damaging crankshaft , contaminating engine etc overhaul done last week required new crankshaft , one new cam shaft \( two \) shattered tried mill took 4 weeks get national back order everything engine unique 1986 year went new design 87 parts expensive way would ever buy another acura highly overrated
rwf2 ns1 cc lehigh edu \( robert william fusi \) subject bang 13k organization lehigh university lines 41 article 1993apr17 ns1 cc lehigh edu , rwf2 ns1 cc lehigh edu \( r william fusi \) writes article 74 uupcb cutting hou tx us , david bonds cutting hou tx us \( vid bonds \) writes rec autos , cpkjp vm cc latech edu \( kevin parker \) writes 'd like get feedback car bang buck 13000 16 , 000 price range i'm looking car enough civility b e driven every day , even long trips , hit gas , want fe e l take look '91 taurus sho found 13k , ultimate 4 door sports cars performance similar mustang , quite civil comfortable try get late model 91 better shifter cutting edge bbs \( cutting hou tx us \) pcboard 14 5a system houston , texas , usa 1 713 466 1525 running uupcb well , could always go 5 0 mustang lx pleasant v8 , diamond star cars \( talon eclipse laser \) put 190 hp turbo models , 195 hp awd turbo models , cars also handling match muscle , civil regular driving conditions , rather harsh , stiff ride awd turbo clearly better choice two \( torque steer front drive model \) , may go leftover slightly used model price range tough decision rob fusi rwf2 lehigh edu car driver test basic idea chose ford probe gt \( course \)
rwf2 ns1 cc lehigh edu \( robert william fusi \) subject fast organization lehigh university lines 13 article 3090 shaman wv tek com , andrew frip wv tek com \( andrew klossner \) wr ites ask speed 130 \? 's rush cocaine 's point \? andrew klossner \( andrew frip wv tek com \) yeah , cop could n't catch
rwf2 ns1 cc lehigh edu \( robert william fusi \) subject fast organization lehigh university lines 12 article 3090 shaman wv tek com , andrew frip wv tek com \( andrew klossner \) wr ites ask speed 130 \? 's rush cocaine 's point \? andrew klossner \( andrew frip wv tek com \) n't know cocaine ,
rwf2 ns1 cc lehigh edu \( robert william fusi \) subject new alarm proposal organization lehigh university lines 22 article 1993apr14 19777 slcs slb com , dcd se houston geoquest slb co \( dan day \) writes article armory centerline com jimf centerline com \( jim frost \) w rites audible alarm annoyance either professional amateur nobody listens audible alarms anymore thieves know think ought heavy fine false alarms i'm really fact due cars cruddy alarms crying wolf , one pay attention car alarm ever goes real depends area , city , nobody thinks mall something near suburbs , people least glance remember , alarm , prevention thief sees two cars likes , one alarm n't , 's obviously going skip alarmed car avoid hassle way around every alarm , least 've got something side rob fusi rwf2 lehigh edu
rmt6r faraday clas virginia edu \( roy matthew thigpen \) subject i'm getting car , need opinions organization university virginia lines 2 good luck
subject curious maria alice ruth psuvm psu edu organization penn state university lines 20 please satisfy curiosity i'm interested finding using e mail system please flood mail april 21st thanks ! maria alice ruth psuvm bitnet psuvm psu edu 1 male female \? 2 long using e mail system \? 3 access \( work , school , etc \) \? 4 taught use system \? person male female \? 5 helped anyone learn system \? person \( \) male female \? 6 net find questions \? 7 nets interested \? 8 often read post system \?
edwards world std com \( jonathan edwards \) subject toyota land cruiser worth \? organization intranet , inc lines 10 response post suv 's , got several unsolicited recommendations check land cruiser , despite astronomical price toyota dealer told 's cult car car good enough create passionate loyal following , must something really extraordinary , land cultists chance convert jonathan edwards edwards intranet com intranet , inc 617 527 7020
cf947 cleveland freenet edu \( chun hung wan \) subject nx2000 vs sentra se r organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 17 reply cf947 cleveland freenet edu \( chun hung wan \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu i'm trade sentra se r nx2000 car 11 , 500 miles '92 model nx2000 dealer selling '91 model 23 , bar roof , c , airbag , sentra asking 1500 fair deal \? thing noticed nx2000 engine seem much torque sentra identical engine presume last lady owner really push engine 's limits mine , nx2000 's engine little tight , buy nx2000 excercise well , slight power problem go away \? advice much appreciated thanks please reply via e mail possible motion picture major brooks institute photography , ca santa barbara foreign student kuala lumpur , malaysia mind forerunner states
music erich triumf ca \( fred w bach \) subject warning \( please read \) organization triumf tri university meson facility lines 71 distribution world nntp posting host erich triumf ca news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article 1993apr15 convex com , tobias convex com \( allen tobias \) writes article 1993apr15 024246 8076 virginia edu ejv2j virginia edu \( erik velapoldi \) writes happened year ago washington dc beltway snot nosed drunken kids decided would really cool throw huge rocks cars overpass four five cars hit several serious injuries , sadly small girl sitting front seat one struck head one larger rocks n't recall made , think comatose month doctors n't holding hope 'd live hell happening great country \? see boyhood pranks peeing bridges , 20 pound rocks \? \? ! society really stooped low \? \? yes nobody watching get caught , punishment old days behaviour would rewarded good sized belt , taken hospital see first hand kind damage accidents cause course n't happen would probably save kid 's life teaching respect others person little respect would inevitably wind dead early anyway problem creeping put frog hot water , jumps put cold water ever gradually heat , frog cook entertainment industry lack religious , moral , educational standards modern north american society done us years , may woken late erik velapold society , known , coming apart seams ! basic reason human life devalued point killing someone big deal kid 's see hundreds murderous acts tv , abort children demand , kill sick old surprised kids drop 20 lbs rocks kill people n't care message hear life cheap ! education system religious leaders n't much , either parents working society , influence home \? children everywhere ! kids watch whatever rotten videos listen whatever violent hate promoting music videos like one home stop day age , 100 times things learn went school , answer increased knowledge shorter school hours leisure time ! say keep kids school longer , feed good food teach something , get home , parent interact monitor old forgotten proverb child left bring parent grief daycare systems answer shifting parents' responsibilities someone else 's life long committment , rather job followups go alt parents teens fred w bach , operations group internet music erich triumf ca triumf \( tri university meson facility \) voice 604 222 1047 loc 327 278 4004 wesbrook mall , ubc campus fax 604 222 1074 university british columbia , vancouver , b c , canada v6t 2a3 opinions , make read , think , question necessarily reflect views employer fellow workers
music erich triumf ca \( fred w bach \) subject warning \( please read \) organization triumf tri university meson facility lines 33 distribution world nntp posting host erich triumf ca news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article neilson seoul mpr ca , neilson seoul mpr ca \( robert neilson \) writes sorry 0 auto content , low abiding citizens power protect property using deadly force necessary anywhere threat imminent steve heracleous power steve n't \? n't go shoot kids tossing rocks onto cars \? make sure good job though n't miss 'cause like big rocks take kids mean last comment obviously bit cynical , true statement attitude drivers \( 's autos content \) , would say law abiding \( low abiding \( talk freudian slips ! \) \) citizens right responsibility try prevent type behaviour children doctor may use deadly force part body \( like \) infection disease gone far real desire would prevent disease first place least bud followups go alt parents teens fred w bach , operations group internet music erich triumf ca triumf \( tri university meson facility \) voice 604 222 1047 loc 327 278 4004 wesbrook mall , ubc campus fax 604 222 1074 university british columbia , vancouver , b c , canada v6t 2a3 opinions , make read , think , question necessarily reflect views employer fellow workers
music erich triumf ca \( fred w bach \) subject warning \( please read \) organization triumf tri university meson facility lines 33 distribution world nntp posting host erich triumf ca keywords brick , truck , danger news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article c5joit e31 bcstec ca boeing com , neil bcstec ca boeing com \( neil williams \) writes long 're subject several years ago two others riding front toyota pickup heading south interstate 5 north seattle , wa someone threw rock overpass hit windshield accident i'm sure , impossible get overpass quickly see figured kids , reported left couple years ago happend killed guy company mid left behind wife children turned reformatory juviniles blocks away caught 14 year old put cover overpass , else could \? n't think 'll forget story neil williams , boeing computer services , bellevue wa neil , 14 year old caught \? man 's insurance company \? could significant case interesting followups alt parents teens fred w bach , operations group internet music erich triumf ca triumf \( tri university meson facility \) voice 604 222 1047 loc 327 278 4004 wesbrook mall , ubc campus fax 604 222 1074 university british columbia , vancouver , b c , canada v6t 2a3 opinions , make read , think , question necessarily reflect views employer fellow workers
eliot lanmola engr washington edu \( eliot \) subject manual shift bigots organization clearer blir lines 20 nntp posting host lanmola engr washington edu article news cso uiuc edu mchaffee dcl nxt07 \( michael chaffee \) writes w r performance , converter lockup purely irrelevant lockup occurs light throttle settings serves improve mpg mind , converter clutch lovely job improving mpg , additional mechanical advantage converter gives acceleration \( vs locked converter clutch \) inherent losses take away transmission car contradicts assertions get much stronger acceleration let convertor lockup induce briefly lifting , quickly \( quickly trigger \) applying throttle 3000 rpms , convertor never unlock would first says 's skill involved driving automatic \? think throttle shifter combined single pedal car pretty much influence shifting patterns right foot , hands steer eliot
markm \( mark monninger \) subject bimmer vs beamer nntp posting host 223 250 10 8 reply markm \( mark monninger \) organization motorola sps , tempe , az distribution usa lines 8 although direct response referenced article , set record straight , beamers bmw motorcycles bmw cars bimmers please , let 's get terms straight actually , would argue true bimmer round tail light 2002 1600 mark
wpi wpi edu \( jacques w \) subject warning \( please read \) organization worcester polytechnic institute lines 8 distribution world nntp posting host wpi wpi edu keywords brick , truck , danger could cease discussion fail see people feel need expound upon issue days days end areas meant type discussion feel need things , please take thought elsewhere thanks want two things world , 58 plymouth small opec nation fuel would good thing car go home sulk jacques manufacturing engineering
cpkjp vm cc latech edu \( kevin parker \) subject insurance rates performance cars summary organization louisiana tech university lines 244 nntp posting host vm cc latech edu x newsreader nnr vm 1 3 2 recently posted article asking kind rates single , male drivers 25 yrs old paying performance cars 's summary replies received i'm 25 anymore \( 27 close enough \) 1992 dodge stealth rt twin turbo \( model \) tickets , accidents , house , taken defensive driving 1 , airbag , abs , security alarm , single 1500 year 500 state farm insurance \( includes additional 100 1 , 000 , 000 umbrella policy car house \) base policy standard 100 , 000 100 , 000 300 , 000 policy required de 2nd defensive driving course 5 less bought car september 1992 company \( never accident ticket 11 years \) quoted 2 , 500 hope helps steve flynn university delaware 45 kevin \( hope remembered name correctly \) asked insurance performance cars well , last year similar situation bought car , made inquiry age 24 \( \) car 1992 eagle talon tsi awd driving record clean state illinois cost 820 6 mos turn 25 may insurance goes 520 6 mos also , i'm single higher rate company 've got couple friends w pay \( different ins companies also \) , maybe i'm lucky hope info helps dan dans mot com motorola cellular subscriber group 38 usa cc i'm 23 live norman , oklahoma drive '89 sc never made claim insurance \( though hit several times negligent drivers could n't see stop signs fiddling radios \) three moving violations last 18 months \( one going 85 55 one failure clear intersection \( still say damn light yellow \) one going 35 25 \( n't go record \) \) rates state farm \( passive restraint deduction \) liability , 500 deductible comprehensive , 500 deductible collision roughly 1300 year \( paying 1100 year '92 escort lx \) james james p callison microcomputer coordinator , u oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i'm engineer , play one work forecast calls thunder '89 bird sc 's hell thing , killing man take away 's ever gonna munny , unforgiven 61 beyond 25 age group , experience years ago might interesting owned 1985 toyota celica gt decided buy gift exotic car front runners included toyota supra turbo porsche 924 \( 1987 model years \) narrowed two liked simplicity handling \( snob appeal , \) driving porsche supra turbo less money features performance almost personal luxury car better acceleration higher top speed 924 almost ready give buying impulse 924 , decided stop insurance agent 's office way asked would happen rate either car buy supra , rate classification celica \( '85 celica considered year rated one safest cars \) , slight increase car 2 years newer lower risk division continue handle account buy porsche 924 , 'll change standard higher rate company rate double go 944 , 's another story 'll cover rest year , cancel supra much faster 924 , 924 actually faster standard 944 make sense 's book says n't insure corvettes , either reason , underwriters consider drivers traditional conservative eventually went supra number reasons porsche dealer nice salesman get interested , tough high pressure guy back room equal monthly payments , would taken year longer pay porsche , plus higher insurance concluded high insurance related probability auto theft \) \) \) everyone 's entitled opinion \) goldberg oasys dt navy mil imagination important knowledge albert einstein 32 live idaho 26 many years ago \( 10 years \) bought trans \( new \) insurance 1300 year turned 26 , immediately dropped 460 year accidents , strictly age change rate stayed pretty much sold car 2 years ago f 150 pickup 80 year less real amazing thing woke age 25 , felt much responsible \) wes 21 information california male , single , 25 , moving violation alfa spider 2000 year bargain ! ! ! 28 let 's see , i'm 24 , single , male , clean driving record 92 vw corrado vr6 live san jose , california pay 1500 year allstate good deal ask thinking getting talon , think insurance higher turbo sports car vs v6 w 27 1986 honda crx si , clean record , small new mexico town around 800 per year , age 24 nearby city rates 1 5x 2x higher 've got mine insured robert robert stack institute transportation studies , univ california irvine stack translab uci edu '92 mazda lx 37 1300 per year , 1992 saturn sc , 21 years old , state new mexico , insurance state farm 64 info car '89 toyota celica st insurance co farmer 's insurance yearly insurance age 24 date license oct 14 , 1992 residence mountain view , california moving violations \( atleast \) hope helps please post summary possible email informix com apt \( 415 \) 962 \( 415 \) 926 38 single , 24 years old , eagle talon turbo awd , 1200 \( full cover , reasonable liability \) tickets , violations , accidents \( knock wood \) mass , one thing makes huge difference mass town live i'm personally one best towns within reasonable distance boston moved absolute best would go 1150 , moved worst would 2000 also one accident couple tickets , would probably add another 600 rv 43 1990 mitsubishi eclipse turbo awd , 23 years old tickets went record live illinois outside chicago pay year full coverage state farm get small discount alarm system \( 30 year \) live 15 miles chicago actually lived city price would 2000 year 41 i'm 25 , case 're interested anyway , i'm insuring 93 sho 287 6 month thats 100k personal 300k total 100k property 250 deductible , glass towing , state farm 39 unless 20 driving less 5 years , think seriously ripped n't one performance cars listed , record clean , paying 2k try calling insurance dealers could find \? although rates supposed standardized , 've found places initially call , give ridiculously high quote , hit one much lower also , changed insurance companies rate went renewal \( accidents , tickets , car gets older \? \? \) maintain low rate always careful comes insurance companies 8 \) good luck , serge
cs dal ca \( jeff smith \) subject header honda civic si organization math , stats cs , dalhousie university , halifax , ns , canada lines 22 nntp posting host cs dal ca hello , looking slightly increase performance 89 honda civic si wondering anyone could suggest upgrades drastic thought one easiest upgrades would new header anyone know kind increase header would give \? think would check jackson racing part would make honda parts small changes easily made wo n't screw car things like new \? , new fuel injection chip etc \? would welcome suggestions small changes would make difference n't really want change cam etc heard would much harder engine e mail prefered please post summary replies thanks help may offer ! jeff smith cs dal ca dalhousie university halifax , ns
rmt6r faraday clas virginia edu \( roy matthew thigpen \) subject impala ss going production ! organization university virginia distribution na lines 25 qazi csd4 csd uwm edu writes latest issue autoweek , chevy impala ss arrive dealer mid 1994 dealers already notified word changes made production version question would buy \? much would pay \? aamir qazi qazi csd4 csd uwm edu care \? 'd rather watch drying paint aamir qazi qazi csd4 csd uwm edu care \? 'd rather watch drying paint alright gm ! ! ! ! finally wishes come true , dick corvette engine n't think maybe spend money something lousy build quality design bigger selling cars \? another example gm much trouble 're going stick lt 1 zr 1 engine car , least make nice looking one sheesh
rmt6r faraday clas virginia edu \( roy matthew thigpen \) subject chrysler new yorker \( compact lh sedans \? \) organization university virginia lines 7 warren brown , washington post 's auto writer first journalist get hands new yorker 'd like impressions review appeared friday 's paper , weekend section traditional auto writer enjoy
murthy watson ibm com \( murthy \) subject bimmer vs beamer distribution usa disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host watson ibm com organization ibm j watson research center lines 12 article 1993apr18 newsgate sps mot com , markm \( mark monninger \) writes although direct response referenced article , set record straight , beamers bmw motorcycles bmw cars bimmers please , huh ! though beamers ibm employees \) let 's get terms straight actually , would argue true bimmer round tail light 2002 1600 mark
brian gothamcity jsc nasa gov \( brian donnell \) subject sale '91 celica repair manuals nntp posting host arc nasa gov organization nasa arc information sciences division lines 12 two volume soft cover repair manuals models '91 toyota \( probably good '92 models well \) like new condition manuals used toyota mechanics normally cost 80 new 50 obo brian donnell brian gothamcity jsc nasa gov
adn6285 ritvax isc rit edu subject mr2 parts nntp posting host vaxa isc rit edu reply adn6285 ritvax isc rit edu organization rochester institute technology lines 4 anyone know dead first generation mr2 \? need body parts , steering rack , minor pieces buy parts car , owner backed 3 month pulling leg mike
hagenjd wfu edu \( jeff hagen \) subject improvements automatic transmissions organization wake forest university lines 18 nntp posting host ac wfunet wfu edu summary query keywords saturn , subaru , manual , automatic biggest hurdle automatics \( imho \) shifting speed per se , rather transmission 's reaction speed try force shift manually biggest fault subaru took tranny find right ratio sales propaganda says saturn automatic effectively electronically shifted manual might mean saturn conquered problem \? \( dunno , driven saturn 5 speeds \) input , please ! another question plans manual trans chrysler lh \? anyone else fall asleep night dreaming combo \?
fermi clas virginia edu \( michael davis \) subject slick 50 , good \? organization university virginia lines 9 chances discussed death already , could someone kept discussion mail direct archive site basically , wondering slick 50 really says also , data support claim thanks info mike davis fermi clas virginia edu
hagenjd wfu edu \( jeff hagen \) subject lois chevrolet \? organization wake forest university lines 22 nntp posting host ac wfunet wfu edu chevrolet brothers respected racers test drivers buick co durant directors kicked durant gm took chevrolet others mentioned , founded successful chevrolet company little known fact chevrolet co actually took gm ! durant got back charge gm legally new company chevrolet co buying , gm division chevrolet ! 1920 sloan era , gm things gm board superior , always degree autonomy given chevy division , presumably initial structure \( look organization chart gm sloan 's book , chevy division reports directly 14th floor , passenger car division covers buick , olds , cadillac , oakland pontiac \) jeff hagen \( minor deity worthless auto trivia \) hagenjd ac wfu edu
grady world std com \( dick grady \) subject dumbest automotive concepts time organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 10 article cellar org cellar org \( dan reed \) writes fact , leave key whenever need make easy car thief saves trouble popping ignition ! dick grady salem , nh , usa grady world std com many newsgroups , little time !
grady world std com \( dick grady \) subject dumbest automotive concepts time organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 18 article 57 unix amherst edu unix amherst edu \( barak h \) writes started reading thread today , forgive already mentioned deal renault 's putting horn left hand turn signal stalk \? button end , washer button would wiper washer stalk could figure wiring steering wheel , \? ford tried also , back 1983 1983 ranger pickup horn end turn signal stalk , instead center wheel god intended \) drove two different cars \( 1984 camry \) , never get used pushing turn signal stalk blow horn time got right getting annual state required safety inspection ! one ford 's better ideas dick grady salem , nh , usa grady world std com many newsgroups , little time !
tommy boole att com \( tommy reingold \) subject get new york taxi \? reply tommy boole att com organization bell labs , holmdel , nj , usa distribution na originator tommy hoodlum nntp posting host hoodlum att com lines 18 wrat unisql uucp \( wharfie \) writes actually , want checker special find one good luck i'm sorry let mine go grew new york city rode many checker jump seats fun kid although cars roomy good trait taxi design flaw n't understand never fixed rear passengers tended fall seats driver would n't want take long ride back seat one vehicles like \? never drove one , ask tommy reingold bell labs , holmdel , nj tommy boole att com att ! boole ! tommy
grady world std com \( dick grady \) subject seating ergonomics headroom organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 14 article amiller almaden ibm com amiller almaden ibm com \( alex miller \) writes physical therapist suggested good driving position back nearly vertical knees much higher hips cars particularly good respect headroom well designed seat height \? take look mini vans sat dodge , high seat plenty headroom dick grady salem , nh , usa grady world std com many newsgroups , little time !
tommy boole att com \( tommy reingold \) subject improvements automatic transmissions reply tommy boole att com organization bell labs , holmdel , nj , usa originator tommy hoodlum keywords saturn , subaru , manual , automatic nntp posting host hoodlum att com lines 24 hagenjd wfu edu \( jeff hagen \) writes biggest hurdle automatics \( imho \) shifting speed per se , rather transmission 's reaction speed try force shift manually rented oldsmobile \( yuppie name \? \) nissan stanza automatics i'm manual transmission bigot admit transmissions cars better shifters yes , responded quickly requests nissan tachometer able figure gear \( olds may also , n't remember \) believe shifted way second 50 mph foot told , really want accelerate quickly would still prefer manual , wo n't thinking accelerate modern automatic i'm smooth shifting certainly good automatic tommy reingold bell labs , holmdel , nj tommy boole att com att ! boole ! tommy
ip02 ns1 cc lehigh edu \( danny phornprapha \) subject 300zx sc300 \? \? \? organization lehigh university lines 15 hi everyone , i'm getting car near future 've narrow 300zx sc300 might better choice \? thanks opnion , danny hey ! programmers ! danny phornprapha please consider ip02 lehigh edu bugs another endangered earth student konsultant species needing protection work \( 215 \) 758
ucsb edu \( archie holmes \) subject prizm 's radio question keywords prizm , geo , radio , theft distribution rec lines 7 geo prizm lsi today \( nice \) anyway , questions salesperson could n't answer theft deterrent prizm 's audio systems work \? ca n't find answer geo 's thanks advance archie holmes
rts nwu edu \( ted schreiber \) subject opinions recent alfa nntp posting host mech nwu edu organization mechanical engineering lines 15 anyone opinions fairly recent model alfa \( 86 \) class \( i'm talking alfa vs toyota \) far discern , recent years , 3 levels basically mechanical aspects please email responses ted schreiber mechanical northwestern university tel 708 491 fax 708 491 email rts nwu edu
hpcc01 corp hp com \( mike \) subject mazda feel right organization hp corporate notes server lines 2 car might also need front end alignment , particularly 're describing wandering
grady world std com \( dick grady \) subject car buying story , christ , another dealer service scam organization world public access unix , brookline , distribution usa lines 15 article 93106 byuvm bitnet byuvm bitnet writes mark states post know dealer price offer 200 300 husband market buy first car together , neither us know go find dealer price \? books look \? send away somewhere \? several company publish periodicals \( 3 4 times year \) list sticker prices dealer invoice prices cars options edmund 's name one price guide find price guides places sell magazines dick grady salem , nh , usa grady world std com many newsgroups , little time !
subject traffic rules intersections math canterbury ac nz \( julian \) organization department mathematics , university canterbury nntp posting host canterbury ac nz lines 20 presently masters thesis traffic intersections new zealand lot books researching , america australia wondering anyone could please tell road rules either country regard intersections thanks julian math canterbury ac nz , ,
organization university illinois chicago , academic computer center jay lorenzana uicvm uic edu subject eagle talon tsi lemon \? lines 22 dear netters looking buy used eagle talon '91 '91 tsi awd question '91 tsi awd mentioned april consumer reports car avoid ! particular , manual transmission , electrical system , brakes par \( models \) friend mine '90 tsi awd 2 brake jobs \( pads \) , one stuck valve , clutch transmission problem , something sticking grinding second gear n't seem bad one beats car willing suffer reliability speed looks seems pay big buck want three anyway anyone please let know like talon , problems may , repairs worth thanks responses ! jay
atom netcom com \( allen tom \) subject dumb options list organization sirius corporation complaints lines 22 article acs ucalgary ca parr acs ucalgary ca \( charles parr \) writes idea list pointless options know , stuff get car earthly use \? 1 \) power windows like power windows think 're worth however , cruise control pretty dumb option 's point \? 're long trip , floor gas keep eyes rear view mirror cops , right \? power seats pretty dumb , unless 're unlucky enough share car otherwise , 'd adjust leave like allen tom 're like others like atom soda berkeley edu things wax paper football atom netcom com leather dog breath anymore riding ! ren
smorris sumax seattleu edu \( steven morris \) subject wife wants convertible organization addiction studies program , seattle university lines 15 nntp posting host sumax seattleu edu hold , number interesting convertibles coming market next years new based mitsubishi galant , improvement current model new pl compact convertible option \( also chrysler product \) , makers ford planning larger convertible steve morris , internet smorris sumax seattleu edu addiction studies pgm uucp uw beaver , uunet ! ! ! sumax ! smorris seattle university phone \( 206 \) 296 \( dept \) 296 \( direct \) seattle , wa
eliot lanmola engr washington edu \( eliot \) subject improvements automatic transmissions keywords saturn , subaru , manual , automatic article engr organization clearer blir lines 40 nntp posting host lanmola engr washington edu excellent automatic found subaru legacy switches sport mode electronics figure , driver sets switch proper way , imo sport mode entail \? several things 1 \) revving red line \( rev limiter case legacy \) 2 \) delayed \( e lift briefly , remain low gear handy charging corners would like without distraction 's another curve approaching \) 3 \) part throttle , based speed pedal depressed , rather position pedal modern electronics measure easily switch sport mode wonderful want charge green light turn red audi senses well downshift little half throttle right foot fast enough also , think smart automatic deliver better gas mileage dumb driver stick , else equal remember idea stick economical automatic makes big assumption driver smart enough know gear use situation many times ridden driver cruising highway 55 65 4th gear \( 5 speed \) \? many people drive manuals really know best gear use every conceivable situation \? i'm sure know , suspect chip controlled automatic possible scenario ratio combinations stored rom likely better also say previous assumptions proved wrong got car instantaneous mpg readout high gear , low revs wide open throttle economical low gear , high revs small throttle opening explanation quite simple one sits think , obvious first sight eliot
dduff col hp com \( dave duff \) subject taurus sable rotor recall organization hp colorado springs division lines 4 nntp posting host fajita19 cs itc hp com get 20 taurus fleet cars site every year , company sells year later employees folks know drive buy complaints cars seem drive real nice
crh regent e technik tu muenchen dbp de \( christian huebner \) subject manual shift bigots organization technical university munich , germany lines 33 rec autos write drive fully automatic transmission , ca n't half bad \) auto transmission \( still think 's half auto , may right \) nothing gm , chrysler , volvo , whatever auto transmission 's normal manual transmission gearbox clutch , servo motors , shifting means , power loss \( take minimal mechanical friction \) , sami auto transmissions \( ferrari , williams , \( \? \) , \) n't tell , shift , either however , transmissions share important disadvantage stock auto trannie expensive long servo shifted n't available 'normal' cars i'm gonna stick manual ca n't see advantage make two grand lose deal loss mileage power \( except maybe real heavy traffic \) drive mostly autobahn country roads anyway 's point making religion , wanted point technical facts opinion , 's need flame war eliot safe ride chris
issa cwis unomaha edu \( issa el \) subject 300zx sc300 \? \? \? organization university nebraska omaha lines 20 ip02 ns1 cc lehigh edu \( danny phornprapha \) writes hi everyone , i'm getting car near future 've narrow 300zx sc300 might better choice \? thanks opnion , danny 've asking question past year , , find , would please share answer way see right , work twice hard cheers \) issa
zaphod uucp \( ron bean \) subject rfi art clutchless shifting organization software lines 30 jong halcyon com \( barking weasel \) writes schludermann sscvx1 ssc gov writes technique ease back throttle time gently wrist back shift lever reason miss shift window , lightly press accelerator try agian 've found clutchless shifting quicker high rpms \( 4000 7000 \) also skip gears times using 1 3 5 , 1 2 4 5 sounds right usually slip throttle blip throttle wait feels like things right \( usually second \) slip gear , guys learn \? something born , make horrible grinding noises first times \? \( many times \? \) would think 'd certain amount feel begin people would never get , others \( like \) would never guts try , unless maybe planning buy new transmission anyway \( btw , 've heard quite race car drivers shift way \) zaphod uucp \( ron bean \) uwvax ! astroatc ! ! ! zaphod
mac1 isis msstate edu \( mubashir cheema \) subject 1st time chrysler buyer , 400 really \? summary 400 keywords 400 nntp posting host isis msstate edu organization mississippi state university lines 13 hello world , bought new stealth two weeks ago got grad student rebate someone told 's another 400 1st time chrysler buyer true \? yes still get late \? mubashir cheema communications ph \( 601 \) 323 fax \( 601 \) 324 500 russell street , suite 20 email mac1 ra msstate edu starkville , ms 39759
hong remus rutgers edu \( hong \) subject vw passat advice sought organization rutgers univ , new brunswick , n j lines 8 currently car market would like opinions vw passat glx compare toyota camry \? thought car looked solid , stable european disappointment far n't offer next question , n't vw offering automobiles airbags \? pay extra three thousand bmw 318 even though smaller less powerful passat \?
hhtra usho0b hou281 chevron com \( haddock \) subject i'm getting car , need opinions organization chevron lines 19 article 1993apr17 ns1 cc lehigh edu , ip02 ns1 cc lehigh edu \( danny phornprapha \) writes 30 , 000 budget i'm looking sports gt car think would best buy \? well , bit could get mazda rx 7 , definitely best 30k 're stuck \( particular order \) chevy camaro z28 lt1 1 firebird ford mustang cobra toyota mr2 turbo gmc typhoon \) travis
bcm tmc edu subject 6700 hail damage record \? organization baylor college medicine , houston , tx lines 8 distribution usa nntp posting host 128 249 27 175 great storm mazda mpv damaged bad going replace top , doors hood black repaint entire vehicle estimated cost around 7000 repair time approx 3 4 weeks bcm tmc edu
music erich triumf ca \( fred w bach \) subject auto air conditioning without freon organization triumf tri university meson facility lines 75 distribution usa nntp posting host erich triumf ca keywords r12 , r 12 , freon , cfc , greenhouse news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article 1993apr19 research nj nec com , behanna syl nj nec com \( chris behanna \) writes article 1993apr16 newsgate sps mot com rapw20 email sps mot com writes article 1993apr15 research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com \( chris behanna \) writes several chemists already come several substitutes r12 n't hear mobile air conditioning society \( macs \) , , people stand rake 300 1000 per retrofit per automobile , mounted organized campaign squash r12 substitutes existence ban altogether \( shaky technical grounds , best , outright lies worst \) , i'm saying 're wrong know r 12 substitutes exist , sounds lot like carbs oil companies keep us getting sounds crazy , 's true one best r 12 , ghg 12 , currently commercial product unfortunately , sae committee mobile air conditioning comprised almost exclusively macs members case , papers alternative r accepted review publication yo , john \? want provide details \? repost voluminous repost \? later , chris behanna dod 114 1983 h fxwg wide glide jubilee 's red lady behanna syl nj nec com 1975 cb360t baby bike disclaimer would nec 1991 zx 11 needs name agree anyway \? raised pack wild corn dogs interested info r12 substitutes \( fact think really need info get \) would really appreciate technical , supply , hardware upgrade details also , r12 useful solvent extraction production certain pharmaceuticals info corresponding \? currently working local engineers making sure compliant regulations trouble regulations tell longer permitted , instead think cause new regulations montreal protocol definite cfc phase schedule \( course cause montreal protocol research done causes ozone depletion problem \) someone asked earlier governments working fast ban ozone \( cfc \) chemicals gasolines greenhouse gas producing compounds greenhouse effect \( produced infrared trapping gasses like co2 methane \) ozone hole problem \( produced long lived , chlorine containing molecules \) thing lot easier something using cfc 's \( \) stop producing co2 methane natural combustion living \( animal \) organisms planting trees destroying many existing trees would help greenhouse gas problem , would nothing ozone problem fred w bach , operations group internet music erich triumf ca triumf \( tri university meson facility \) voice 604 222 1047 loc 327 278 4004 wesbrook mall , ubc campus fax 604 222 1074 university british columbia , vancouver , b c , canada v6t 2a3 opinions , make read , think , question necessarily reflect views employer fellow workers
convex com \( hiroki \) subject open letter nissan distribution na nntp posting host zeppelin convex com organization engineering , convex computer corp , richardson , tx , usa x disclaimer message written user convex computer corp opinions expressed user necessarily convex lines 43 sumax seattleu edu smorris sumax seattleu edu \( steven morris \) writes hey , nissan , n't guys making station wagons \? used make wagon every platform \( sentra , stanza , maxima \) none fact , make , n't sell u sunny california 1 6l wagon based sentra 2 0l 4wd wagon \( looks like infinity g20 actually 's independently designed wagon mean , 's based sedans \) nissan better consider sell buying se r really loving , would like buy another nissan product wife prefer wagon \( 've owned minivans n't prefer \) altima wagon \? sentra wagon would sounds nice doubt plan introduced replace sedan based wagon , 's even better suggestion , n't guys go ahead buy rest fuji heavy industries \( subaru \) put either line 4 v 6 legacy 4wd wagon 'd buy legacy minute nissan engine instead horizontal 4 seem attached camry , accord , taurus , volvo subaru wagons 's got market segment would worthwhile ! wait year two n't something compete 1995 model may go elsewhere thanks steve morris , internet smorris sumax seattleu edu addiction studies pgm uucp uw beaver , uunet ! ! ! sumax ! smorris seattle university phone \( 206 \) 296 \( dept \) 296 \( direct \) seattle , wa
turbo cbnewse cb att com \( gerald l \) subject warning \( please read \) organization lines 19 article 1993apr15 024246 8076 virginia edu , ejv2j virginia edu \( erik velapoldi \) happened year ago washington dc beltway snot nosed drunken kids decided would really cool throw huge rocks cars overpass four five cars hit several serious injuries , sadly small girl sitting front seat one struck head one larger rocks n't recall made , think comatose month doctors n't holding hope 'd live hell happening great country \? see boyhood pranks peeing bridges , 20 pound rocks \? \? ! society really stooped low \? \? erik velapold yes ! ! ! ! !
jason studsys mscs mu edu \( jason hanson \) subject warning \( please read \) organization marquette university department mscs lines 14 nntp posting host studsys mscs mu edu article 1993apr15 cbnewse cb att com turbo cbnewse cb att com \( gerald l \) writes article 1993apr15 024246 8076 virginia edu , ejv2j virginia edu \( erik velapoldi \) happened year ago washington dc beltway snot nosed drunken kids decided would really cool throw huge rocks cars overpass four five cars hit several serious injuries , sadly year ago , kids tossed rock overpass 94 near eau claire , wisconsin killed driver \( believe minnesota \) jason hanson 915 w wisconsin ave 1010 \( 414 \) 288 marquette university milwaukee , wi ham radio ae jason studsys mscs mu edu n0ary nocal ca usa na
pandora sdsu edu \( john \) subject car buying story , christ , another dealer service scam organization san diego state university , college sciences lines 40 distribution usa nntp posting host pandora sdsu edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 mark monninger \( markm bigfoot sps mot com \) wrote exactly service incident , similar experience recently bought new truck picked vehicle wanted little haggling agreed price wrote check payment plus tax license told 'd back evening pick truck returned , wait hour finance guy could get finally got , everything went smoothly started adding numbers discovered miscalculated tax license 150 said needed another 150 said already agreed price problem , n't giving money finance guy similar thing happend year ago bought used ford bronco \( since stolen \( \) weeks paid took delivery , sent letter telling goofed miscalculated license renewal 300 need send check avoid delay processing registration thing , already received pink slip dmv , ignored received another letter phone calls started coming first finance guy general manager , extra money left alone told already paperwork pointed clause contract stated final price final afterall , would n't budge told wanted another 300 deal signed , right \? told call would business future n't seem problem , , used ford toyota dealership much better experience buying new pathfinder month ago certainly pays buy car last sunday month even raining , done little business weekend really willing deal kept telling would think , kept dropping price got good deal far please service john pandora sdsu edu
brandt cs unc edu \( andrew brandt \) subject seeking good alfa romeo mechanic organization university north carolina chapel hill lines 14 nntp posting host axon cs unc edu keywords alfa , romeo , spider , mechanic looking recommendations good \( great \? \) alfa romeo mechanic south jersey philadelphia nearby '78 alfa spider needs engine , tranny , steering work done body quite good shape car awful cold weather , wo n't start freezing \( know , know , drive spider 's snow ground \) bosch mechanical fuel injection sure needs adjustment opinions welcome look call email post \( rec autos \) , summarize people want thx , andy \( brandt cs unc edu \)
andyh chaos cs brandeis edu \( andrew j huang \) subject changing oil self organization brandeis university lines 16 article 1993apr15 magnus acs ohio state edu sorlin magnus acs ohio state edu \( steven j orlin \) writes take electrodes amp ohm volt meter whatever connect one earlobe , insert fingers spark plug boots cheating guys ! hands must used ! couple questions technique first , firing order use \? start pointer finger pinky \? left hand right \? secondly , two cylinders unaccounted suggestions \? andy
nosubdomain nodomain \( \) subject trains radar \? organization bellcore , livingston , nj lines 30 article 1993apr13 usho72 hou281 chevron com , hhtra usho72 hou281 chevron com \( haddock \) writes taking extended easter vacation , going north 45 somewhere , tx dallas , tx came upon train parked trestle locomotive sitting directly lanes appeared movement within cab curiosity slowed 85 get better look passed underneath trestle , radar detector went full alert lights lit chirps , beeps , buzzes going strong thought nailed good police could caused train 's radio \? travis boy , travis lucky ! ! went new texas rangers stealth patrol car ! good thing slowed ! newsgroups rec autos distribution world references 1993apr13 usho72 hou281 chevron com nosubdomain nodomain \( \) organization subject trains radar \? keywords
mizar usc edu \( joni \) subject honda accord brake problem organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 26 distribution world nntp posting host mizar usc edu honda accord hit magic 100 , 000 mile mark sorts things beginning go bad latest problem experiencing brakes still stop car fine , stopped completely , brake pedal sink another 2 3 inches feels really strange , worried brakes quit working one days checked brake fluid , reservoir full , fluid looked really dirty \( like dirty oil \) called mechanic told need new brake master cylinder , cost whopping 250 300 wondering anyone experienced sort thing , mechanic honest \? simply need brakes bled new fluid put \? help could provide would appreciated please send replies directly , rarely chance read list post responses interest thanks , joni mizar usc edu
j acsu buffalo edu \( joel \) subject cleaning boots \? organization ub lines 15 nntp posting host autarch acsu buffalo edu boots white throw away first pair since found way cleaning looked almost black second pair white ones dirty need way clean w removing since cut remove , way \? buy black ones \? thanks joel joel j acsu buffalo edu university buffalo ubvms cc buffalo edu 's black white thing , 's thing takes big man cry , even bigger man laugh man jack handy
jchen wind bellcore com \( jason chen \) subject open letter nissan \( really station wagon \) nntp posting host wind bellcore com reply jchen ctt bellcore com organization bell communications research distribution na lines 10 popularity minivans , market room station wagons squeezed comfortable sedan , n't carry much minivans say nobody wants wagon anymore demand certainly hampered minivan , may economical build product jason chen station wagon owner
bowmanj csn org \( jerry bowman \) subject old corvettes low insurance \? nntp posting host fred colorado edu organization university colorado boulder , ocs lines 52 article fmi news rich bnr ca peon w email \( eric youngblood \) writes article 1993apr15 ns1 cc lehigh edu , ns1 cc lehigh edu \( scott warren \) writes article news cso uiuc edu , uxa cso uiuc edu \( george nz \) writes many years school i'm finally graduating getting real job course trying make plans spend extra money right 89 accord , good car , real sporty thinking selling two years dropping around 20k sports car kind thinking , may better idea 'll keep accord drops buy car 've always wanted corvette reasoning 8000 \( accord \) 8000 \( corvette \) less would spend anyway basically , i'm thinking late 70 's , early 80 's around 7 10k question , good years consider \( reliability , looks , horsepower order , believe , horsepower main concern , want go fast , get motorcycle \) good prices \? also , would insurance look like \? i'm male , single , 23 \( might wait i'm 25 get car lower insurance \) would fact mainly drive car lower \? type classic car rarely driven insurance class driving 10k miles per year \? dad 66 vette say basically means restricted amount driving time , basically means cant used every day car would probably suit needs limited mileage area , denver , look around alittle get 1984 10 , 000 less , much less said looking go fast , really nice car real powerful addition restricted mileage , many classic insurance carriers also require vehicle garaged use 0 02 eric youngblood bell northern research richardson , texas , \( peon w email
wrat unisql uucp \( wharfie \) subject sho clutch question \( grinding noise \? \) organization unisql , inc , austin , texas , usa lines 9 article news rich bnr ca nosubdomain nodomain \( james \) writes 's clutch 're hearing , gearbox early shos lot referred noise generally one first shos built , mine n't make noise
wrat unisql uucp \( wharfie \) subject fast organization unisql , inc , austin , texas , usa lines 43 article armory centerline com jimf centerline com \( jim frost \) writes 's bit hard prove point like , compare hoping something like chassis exhibits x degrees flex subjected forces units forces units begin manifest z miles per hour well , gee , n't designed go fast , , well , gee , n't designed go fast 's porsche , know come better seatbelts , supportive seats , stronger passenger compartment cage , better brakes , stiffer suspension , different tires , body design takes advantage aero effects keep car ground come \? well , compared normal taurus , sho comes supportive seats , better brakes , stiffer suspension , different tires , body design takes advantage aero effects keep car ground \( least think 's boy racer plastic \) 're kidding think car road passenger compartment made withstand 130 mph impacts compare either porsche 911 tell designed oh , right 120 , 000 dollar cars driven fast drive goddamn rabbits 120 mph europe , pal , reckon taurus least capable rabbit certainly n't convinced course speeding bad speeding illegal speed love big brother mind made already 's interesting lots roads west speed limits 1975 wr
wrat unisql uucp \( wharfie \) subject fast organization unisql , inc , austin , texas , usa lines 9 article 1993apr14 magnus acs ohio state edu jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu \( john f nielsen \) writes may case speed limit sign necessary take away entirely \? yeah , 're right away speed limits would mean huge tax increases tried make revenue used passing motorists
wrat unisql uucp \( wharfie \) subject fast organization unisql , inc , austin , texas , usa lines 7 article 3090 shaman wv tek com andrew frip wv tek com writes cocaine 's point \? neither harmful used carefully \?
jimf centerline com \( jim frost \) subject fast article armory 1qkon8 3re organization centerline software , inc lines 56 nntp posting host 140 239 3 202 wrat unisql uucp \( wharfie \) writes compare either porsche 911 tell designed oh , right 120 , 000 dollar cars driven fast drive goddamn rabbits 120 mph europe , pal , reckon taurus least capable rabbit whole point say cars could n't go fast , n't go fast family sedan designed 85mph n't suddenly become 130mph added plastic aero effects , slightly wider tires , much larger engine 's sho slightly modified family sedan powerful engine n't even bother improving brakes mustang essentially deal sho big power plant stuck mid size sedan , almost modifications real life experience mustang handles like brick \( except 're invoking oversteer , course , something personally avoid highway \) stopping power inadequate even 80mph lots accelleration rest car par picked porsche example designed speed mind n't 911 could much cheaper 944 one several mercedes audi models cars fairly expensive parts make high speed elementary things keep mind europe , since brought autobahn knowledge admittedly second hand , believe following true 1 drivers much better disciplined europe 2 roads comprising autobahn much better designed , usually include animal fences makes far predictable us highways 3 europe autobahn places europe speed limits n't line used us friends n't lying 're typically much higher h strongly suspect wo n't find lot rabbit owners 120mph \( nearly h \) autobahn , could wrong people respect lives certainly n't convinced course speeding bad speeding illegal speed love big brother mind made already think sure n't pay attention postings jim frost jimf centerline com
ingr com \( doug chamberlain \) subject cherokee v explorer organization intergraph corporation , huntsville , al lines 42 nyu edu writes hi , brand new group , please , flames ! honest opinions jeep cherokee country \( sport \) v ford explorer , every major decision four months making , looking one two also , please comment importance , , 4wd live princeton , nj barely ever take road learned last winter could really use something little confidence 20 inches snow olds eighty eight ! ! replies appreciated 'll 's already decided 6 cyl 4 , n't worry one thanks ! steve new ford explorer , really love ! drove jeep besides power n't see spending money ! jeep great love explorer ! got 93 fine ! drove 400 miles worst part storm never ! opinion doug \( nyu edu \)
henson cc wwu edu \( matthew \) subject ranger vs 10 opinions article henson 1993apr15 organization western washington university lines 16 buying compact pickup favor wait months 1994 gmc sonoma magazines saying day night current truck 's , solid , fast \( 4 3 v 6 \) whip ranger every area \( accept maybe payload \) always pick gmc chevy gmc 's always much better looking man , miss marty matt '87 250 ninja type rider dudes 's feeling wanna know 's obsession keep world mirror try run sun wheels heart
jchen wind bellcore com \( jason chen \) subject lh workmanship nntp posting host wind bellcore com reply jchen ctt bellcore com organization bell communications research lines 19 visited ny auto show , saw two lh cars floor eagle vision dodge intrepid really nice must say attractive styling , lots features room , competitive price unfortunately , workmanship quite disappointing cars , rubber seals around window door fell turns seals big grooved rubber band goes pressing tongue door frame surely would come easily sure many kind engineering assembly problems show later may still consider buying , establishes good track record jason chen
ssave ole cdac com \( devil reincarnate \) subject changing oil self organization cdac , wa lines 27 article 1993apr14 porthos cc bellcore com nosubdomain nodomain \( \) writes article 1qgi8einnhs5 skeena ucs ubc ca , yiklam unixg ubc ca \( yik chong lam \) writes hello , anyone know take bolt engine compartment \? turn clockwise counter \? tried kind lubricants , wd 40 , etc , still failed ! think use electric drill \( change suitable bit \) turn \? succeed , tighten tight , safe without oil leak \? thank much advance would suggest take car nearest chevron dealer , oil filter ask oil change cost less 10 watch watching someone job , able learn remember sequence , right next time besides , drain nut , next time around easier stuck , use impact wrench much force though use new washer time put nut back ssave ole cdac com
badlands nodak edu \( pat \) subject pontiac e mail car clubs nntp posting host badlands nodak edu organization north dakota higher education computing network x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 8 interested know pontiac e mail car clubs \? anyone started one , anybody thinking starting one thanks info give badlands nodak edu
ecs umass edu subject ultimate awd vehicles lines 24 article engr washington edu , eliot lanmola engr washington edu \( eliot \) writes article uwm edu qazi csd4 csd uwm edu writes subarus n't sell well , although percentage purchased awd probably relatively high 56 subarus sold 4wd awd audi backing number models offers awd , one could purchase 80 90 awd , reserved strictly top line model goes 100 200 80 eliminated us lineup , 90 still available quattro version , though hardly cheap still true pledge making 4wd option entire line cars , bring s4 wagon eliot s4 became s4 called 200 turbo quattro model come wagon , quick wagon rare also mike sylvester umass
neilson seoul mpr ca \( robert neilson \) subject warning \( please read \) reply madman austin ibm com 's message thu , 15 apr 1993 17 31 58 gmt nntp posting host seoul organization mpr teltech ltd , burnaby , b c , canada 1993apr15 024246 8076 virginia edu austin ibm com lines 12 sorry 0 auto content , low abiding citizens power protect property using deadly force necessary anywhere threat imminent steve heracleous power steve n't \? n't go shoot kids tossing rocks onto cars \? make sure good job though n't miss 'cause like big rocks take kids mean
megatest com \( ha nguyen \) subject changing oil self organization megatest corporation lines 22 article 1993apr14 progress com damelio progress com \( stephen d'amelio \) writes bmoss grinch sim es com \( brent woody moss \) writes could take screw driver hammer start punching holes various locations black slippery stuff starts pouring would know oil drain plug nearby \( within foot two anyway \) close holes toilet paper oil though refill engine oil ! wow , wonder ca n't get engine last first oil change n't forget punch holes radiator , spray nice refreshing water engine keep nice cool \) steve gee , really make confused radiator \? located \? look like \? release radiation \( since sounds like tion tor \) punch holes \?
freenet carleton ca \( steve hui \) subject instead saturn sc2 , \? \? \? organization national capital freenet , ottawa , canada lines 19 one thing everyone forgetting argument pricing sc1 vs japanese cars saturns dicker sticker makes saturn 's price low comparison inflated base prices japanese competition paper , reality , one could dicker several hundred dollars price japanese cars admittedly , though , canada , least , sc2 price class civic si , sc1 steve hui
col hp com \( tim \) subject instead saturn sc2 , \? \? \? organization colorado springs center lines 7 distribution na nntp posting host cs itc hp com interested got fully \( air , abs , sunroof \) '92 se r september 1991 13 , 555 sacramento , ca one 1st sold , dealers , local dealer abs equipped se r went straight fleet manager dealership liked , told wanted , made aware knew price called back exactly wanted dealer away , took delivery next day
boyle cactus org \( craig boyle \) subject lh workmanship article cactus 1993apr15 organization capital area central texas unix society , austin , tx lines 30 article 1993apr15 walter bellcore com jchen ctt bellcore com writes visited ny auto show , saw two lh cars floor eagle vision dodge intrepid really nice must say attractive styling , lots features room , competitive price unfortunately , workmanship quite disappointing cars , rubber seals around window door fell turns seals big grooved rubber band goes pressing tongue door frame surely would come easily lack build quality thing first 2 lh 's saw months back panel gaps large non uniform 2 cars saw kind thing expect accept mustang chrysler 's savior drove one low end cars , thought adequate 'd prefer lh taurus brief experience craig sure many kind engineering assembly problems show later may still consider buying , establishes good track record jason chen
boyle cactus org \( craig boyle \) subject fast article cactus 1993apr15 distribution world organization capital area central texas unix society , austin , tx lines 51 article bob1 cos bob1 cos com \( bob blackshaw \) writes 1993apr14 cactus org boyle cactus org \( craig boyle \) writes article umcc umcc umich edu umcc umcc umich edu \( mark hartman \) writes driving 130 straight line fine , soon become 's rush corners n't think make clear autobahn , 130 nothing u 99 people judges would label insane difficult persuade people otherwise sure , surface condition good autobahns far better quality autobahns something myth road surface n't much different typical tx freeway better terms lighting , safety , signs , etc 'd problem driving 130 us freeways , , save , really likely dangerous roads dip asphalt test shocks 60 kill 130 n't get wrong , love would quite severe n't recall us freeway , without road damage warnings , would regard unsafe 130 decent , well damped car note definition decent , well damped , would exclude typical american sedans drive quickly say probe 130 , 's 30 've ever tried cause n't decent enough piece road n't know live , would much worried cops , traffic etc road surface 130 n't fast dangerous probe gt , problem models driven would likely unpredictable higher speeds craig craig mark hartman umcc umcc umich edu kalamazoo , mi cleveland freenet edu i'm naked school ! bob
boyle cactus org \( craig boyle \) subject dumbest automotive concepts time article cactus 1993apr15 organization capital area central texas unix society , austin , tx lines 29 article news cso uiuc edu cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu \( oriolefan uiuc \) writes n't original intent reverse lights driver , could see backing \? \? \? although reverse lights sides reverse lights warn others backing n't bright enough \( typically \) see without brake tail lights useful telling whether cars backing perpendicular path car , n't think warnings original intents , since colored white well , red orange already taken maybe white defines direction car moving really want able see behind , get fog lamps back car work well good way get rid get rush testosterone craig chintan amin university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu neil peart , \( c \) 1981 quick judge , quick anger , slow understand , ignorance prejudice fear walk hand hand
jek icf hrb com \( joe \) subject warning \( please read \) organization hrb systems , inc lines 31 \( deleted name n't want sound remark \) two sided problem unfortunately culture deteriorating time breeding low life 's getting worse justice system best extremely weak handle problems low abiding citizens power protect property using deadly force necessary anywhere threat imminent camaro \( pride joy \) got stolen right driveway years back persons eventually caught \( lucky ! \) trashed car another occasion , way texas florida , stopped small motel night small town somewhere florida 5 youths disturbing car , setting alarm challenging come another tenant walked 357 magnum 45 automatic respectively , vanished needless say , immediately packed left watch car jacking staged accidents deadly ! i'm going argue issue carrying weapons , would ask would thought seriously shooting kid setting alarm \? think worse things world glad got anything give reason fire gun ask 's happening society days , n't forget ask another important question effort expending make different \? thoughts , joe
bob1 cos com \( bob blackshaw \) subject braindead drivers n't look ahead keywords bad drivers organization corporation open systems distribution usa lines 52 1993apr14 ctp com bpita ctp com \( bob pitas \) writes article zdem0a hgo7 zdem0a hgo7 hou amoco com \( donna martz \) writes stuff deleted excuse , understood mr smith meant , often observed traffic blocked solid , people moron riding bumpers , slug front pack miraculously wake , change lanes , viola ! jam granted situation apply rush hour crowded city observed situation regularly average interstate , six eight sets cars , side side , pack open freeway fore aft far see people refuse point honor annoying slug front agree traffic blocked want pass , might feel like moving someone behind n't want give one car length , wait like , 're one people sit 's behind person , n't flash high beams , pull left flash , ride bumper , otherwise tell fact want go , 're drafting , get hell way someone ! especially hate flash someone back line n't 've flashed lights chap front n't \( \) , next \? major highways , 3 lanes direction , keeping extreme right blocks folks entering also , someone posted thread , c area left lane exits \( sounds like 66 \) wait last minute get left lane wo n't , cause wo n't make room particularly bad cabin john bridge two long entry ramps hurry dive cause want get ahead get point ramps merge , hell breaks lose result traffic moving 55 va side bridge , stalls side stayed lane , allowed folks coming two ramps merge , would still 55 instead start stop 4 miles dave barry 's idea laser equipped car would real useful bob ps drive beltway want merge , look brown probe silver haired driver , use signals n't read minds , try courteous told courtesy contagious , guess folks around shots
smith ctron com \( lawrence c smith \) subject warning \( please read \) organization cabletron systems , inc lines 25 distribution world reply smith ctron com nntp posting host ctron com article dove nist gov , keys starchild ncsl nist gov \( lawrence b keys \) writes know n't group , since brought , anyone idea n't bombed waco cult \? perhaps witnesses left compound testified batf shot first , identify tossing concussion grenades \( anyone inside could heard identification near concussion grenade \) announcement batf sealed warrant operating search warrant , way , arrest warrant short , perhaps batf wildly control perhaps heads realized bombing compound full woman children improve position real chance koresh able prove self defense court leave \? four officers dead one blame batf followups directed alt activism , discussion nearly long seige , shows every sign giving nearly soon larry smith \( smith ctron com \) , n't speak cabletron need ask \? liberty freedom whatever want , freedom whatever able
alung megatest com \( aaron lung \) subject electronic odometers \( used bmw question \? \? \? \) organization megatest corporation lines 21 article dirac physics purdue edu lovall bohr physics purdue edu \( daniel l lovall \) writes n't hard know much digital electronics counter made standard ttl chips , need find chip \( \) used counting , figure mileage want put , preset wiring preset pins directly low high \( 'd also know conventions low high \) might little involved , n't beyond someone bs display convert counter chips say digits using translation table stored rom nobody using discrete ic 's functions anymore doubt motor electronics start much less ttl almost guarantee 'll fruitless attempt figure bmw without breaking anything warranty car 're lucky , 'd still able start car
cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu \( oriolefan uiuc \) subject warning \( please read \) organization university illinois urbana lines 33 tobias convex com \( allen tobias \) writes article 1993apr15 024246 8076 virginia edu ejv2j virginia edu \( erik velapoldi \) writes happened year ago washington dc beltway snot nosed drunken kids decided would really cool throw huge rocks cars overpass four five cars hit several serious injuries , sadly small girl sitting front seat one struck head one larger rocks n't recall made , think comatose month doctors n't holding hope 'd live girl 's ok , actually , recovered well enough go home n't know permanent damage , though case anybody concerned hell happening great country \? see boyhood pranks peeing bridges , 20 pound rocks \? \? ! society really stooped low \? \? erik velapold people start forcing others take responsibility actions things like would n't happen untill stop blaming outside causes , start blaming criminals , continue let things like happen chintan amin university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu neil peart , \( c \) 1981 quick judge , quick anger , slow understand , ignorance prejudice fear walk hand hand
rmt6r faraday clas virginia edu \( roy matthew thigpen \) subject viper organization university virginia lines 8 last night dream dad bought viper took test drive , without knowledge , push way home avoid ticket wierd dream , wonder means roy
syck5280 miller cs uwm edu \( steven b syck \) subject warning \( please read \) article uwm organization university wisconsin , milwaukee lines 39 nntp posting host 129 89 9 13 article neilson seoul mpr ca neilson seoul mpr ca \( robert neilson \) writes sorry 0 auto content , low abiding citizens power protect property using deadly force necessary anywhere threat imminent steve heracleous power steve n't \? n't go shoot kids tossing rocks onto cars \? make sure good job though n't miss 'cause like big rocks take kids mean self defense advocate , 're , course shooting someone throw rock car question , disabled car rock wanted come kill rape rob beat otherwise harm , wife , kids \? think would like power defend situation , would n't \? value lives rock throwers family \? n't think could n't happen sounds happened people please misunderstand justification using deadly force someone , n't , mean death grave bodily harm far far away supporting justice anything like oh , mean funny , please add appropriate \) followups talk politics guns please 're getting bit track steve syck syck5280 miller cs uwm edu
barnesm sun com \( mark barnes sunsoft \) subject warning \( please read \) organization sun microsystems , inc lines 12 distribution world reply barnesm sun com nntp posting host corp sun com san francisco recently , finest examples humanity poured oil road vehicles going would become , would walk right vehicles make demands known mark barnes , system engineer insert standard disclaimers sunsoft corporate technical speak , individual , menlo park , ca , usa company work barnesm corp sun com
behanna syl nj nec com \( chris behanna \) subject auto air conditioning without freon organization nec systems laboratory , inc lines 33 article 1993apr14 ns1 cc lehigh edu amh2 ns1 cc lehigh edu \( alois himsl \) writes yes , questions makes upset r12 costs fact ca n't bought anymore area also yet another way mechanics dealers rip customers also reading new compatible r12 system would cost 300 upto 1000 retrofit car old r12 system although important consider environment think sudden ban slap face consumer consumer pay retrofit \? auto companies seen coming \? also governments world quick banning freon use yet slow banning gasoline opinion gasoline hazardous anything else ca n't start proposing bans switch natural gas electric \? technology hopefully chemist come another alternative coolant compatible old system al h several chemists already come several substitutes r12 n't hear mobile air conditioning society \( macs \) , , people stand rake 300 1000 per retrofit per automobile , mounted organized campaign squash r12 substitutes existence ban altogether \( shaky technical grounds , best , outright lies worst \) piss \? yes \? write letter congressman , senator , president , epa , dot complain later , chris behanna dod 114 1983 h fxwg wide glide jubilee 's red lady behanna syl nj nec com 1975 cb360t baby bike disclaimer would nec 1991 zx 11 needs name agree anyway \? raised pack wild corn dogs
behanna syl nj nec com \( chris behanna \) subject carb cleaners work \? \? \? \( performance \? \) carb rebuild \? organization nec systems laboratory , inc lines 34 article 1993apr15 slcs slb com dcd se houston geoquest slb com \( dan day \) writes article cpsc ucalgary ca cpsc ucalgary ca \( doug \) writes hard carb rebuild moderately experienced backyard mechanic \? 've done clutch miscellaneous little engine fixes hardest part usually getting darned thing intake manifold rebuilding carb fun , 're things lots little parts used rebuild cars high school , n't take phd buy carb rebuilding kit auto supply store buy gallon best carb cleaning solvent find \( still make \? \) rule thumb , buy one warning labels put metal \( ! \) bucket make punching holes bottom coffee attaching wire handle carb cleaner n't strip paint right coffee , 're using right stuff use soak little stuff , hang big parts coat wash garden hose , wipe excess water paper , air dry remember little parts go follow rebuild kit 's instructions concerning float height , choke tension , etc bolt back engine admire super clean carb filthy engine heed man 's warnings ! get carb cleaner strong hands , hands eaten away pretty hence method later , chris behanna dod 114 1983 h fxwg wide glide jubilee 's red lady behanna syl nj nec com 1975 cb360t baby bike disclaimer would nec 1991 zx 11 needs name agree anyway \? raised pack wild corn dogs
gwalker rtfm mlb fl us \( grayson walker \) subject changing oil self organization n distribution usa lines 10 crawl car \? machine got boat pulls oil suction dip stick tube excellent job moving suction tube around , get old oil using drain plug think paid 25 e b marine oil goes steel 3 gal wait cools favorite device use soft drink bottles easy take local oil recycle center !
moe corollary com \( gary \) subject electronic odometers \( used bmw question \? \? \? \) organization corollary , inc lines 42 article dirac physics purdue edu lovall bohr physics purdue edu \( daniel l lovall \) writes article conradie 40 firga sun ac za conradie firga sun ac za \( gerrit conradie \) writes however , design bmw 's electronics , use counter count number times car passed 1 million miles \( whatever \) , store car computer 's memory could read diagnostics test ditto date odometer easy , n't know n't \( n't \? \) prevent illegal odometer previous writer said , case take reset odometer , mechanic electronic driving car easier , n't know n't hard know much digital electronics counter made standard ttl chips , need find chip \( \) used counting , figure mileage want put , preset wiring preset pins directly low high \( 'd also know conventions low high \) might little involved , n't beyond someone bs display convert counter chips say digits using translation table stored rom , dan , chips probably inside custom chip , \( make smaller use less power \) preset data pins going available would probably ttl might cmos \( wider operating voltage range \) , would make much difference plus custom chip would probably \( encapsulated epoxy \) good luck shark gets 11 12 feet long 300 big teeth considered dangerous bowl
cracker tc fluke com \( graham \) subject jeep wrangler organization john fluke mfg co , inc , everett , wa lines 44 article hp col col hp com , tvervaek col hp com \( tom vervaeke \) writes two , still second right 's 1991 wrangler base model big 6 4 0l engine , hard top , power steering air conditioning runs like top never shop change oil \( nice tall vehicle \) lube \( 11 \) occasionally take lube check oil change previous wrangler nary problem either colorado bmw 's , mercedes , volvos , like together ! fact jeep called colorado car hold value well , easy resell mine cost right around 14 2k new course , n't blow money islander , , 92 wrangler paid 14 1 new \( including rebate \) fancy inside stuff driving cj 5 6 years , fancy stuff pretty nice cars primitive , ride like dump truck , etc live area gets around 140 snow per winter , 'd one 'll go anywhere \( \) easy get parts like wrangler , serious , ca n't keep cj 5 ground clearance limited suspension travel would like get arb air locker future 4 0l engine puts 180 190 hp gets around bad love 4 0 experience i'm sure bad ones , goes make model graham
boyle cactus org \( craig boyle \) subject fast organization capital area central texas unix society , austin , tx lines 108 article 1qkon8 3re armory centerline com jimf centerline com \( jim frost \) writes stuff autobahn safety sho speed deleted mustang essentially deal sho big power mustang much worse case design irresponsibility sho plant stuck mid size sedan , almost modifications real life experience mustang handles like brick \( except 're invoking oversteer , course , something hard drift stock mustang suspension personally avoid highway \) stopping power inadequate even 80mph lots accelleration rest car par yes think mustang , think school bus f16 motor mind mustang fitted speed limiter 80 90 n't safe , check local , mustangs cars proportion way excess sales find astonishing cu jumped mustang poor brakes relation power ford least rear brakes 5 0 's picked porsche example designed speed mind n't 911 could much cheaper 944 one several mercedes audi models cars fairly expensive parts make high speed elementary things keep mind europe , since brought autobahn knowledge admittedly second hand , believe following true 1 drivers much better disciplined europe true northern europe , latin countries something else 2 roads comprising autobahn much better designed true remember build adolf '30 's , usually include animal fences makes far predictable us highways yes 3 europe autobahn places europe autobahn german word freeway countries different names loose equivalents , , etc speed limits n't line used us friends n't lying 're typically much higher h europe seem brink limit n't passed far know typical speeds western europe much higher us law enforcement negligible experience \( us \) revenue enhancement motivation things really notice higher speed , professional attitude driving never see two cars running parallel 55 1 mph oblivious around strongly suspect wo n't find lot rabbit owners 120mph \( nearly h \) autobahn , could wrong people 're wrong gti 's go fast kind noisy , ideal autobahn car lot times see cars driven drivers foot floor know \? 're making ground identical car front ! respect lives something happens 130 150 're dead , goes much 35 driving high speed forces concentrate feel much safer driving 130 autobahn 60 80 typical us traffic people seem awake 've never seen driver reading book autobahn , see often us craig n't seem fast 30 minutes everybody drives fast , big deal craig certainly n't convinced course speeding bad speeding illegal speed love big brother mind made already think sure n't pay attention postings jim frost jimf centerline com
srihari cirrus com \( srihari \) subject instead saturn sc2 , \? \? \? organization cirrus logic inc distribution na lines 24 ifn andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu \( jason roth \) writes r article cars sc1 ilk liked civic ex , escort gt mx 3 best , sc1 way list except braking looked article first , summary inaccurate 10 cars , sc1 5th , right behind mentioned suzuki swift \( ! \) pointed , semi silly comparison saturn least 500 cheaper mx 3 escort \( admittedly negligible , issue \) , 1500 \( ! \) less honda stated goal base 12k honda 500 , sc2 price excluded words , let best honda play , best saturn note saturn beat 13k dont know car comparison far price goes rest assured street prices mx 3 escort \( maybe \) even honda lesser saturn 're talking price comparisons 've seen based msrp course saturn dealer sell car sticker price whereas others way sticker srihari
neil bcstec ca boeing com \( neil williams \) subject warning \( please read \) keywords brick , truck , danger organization boeing computer services lines 51 larose austin cs utk edu \( brian larose \) writes warning everybody net watch folks standing next road overpasses cause serious harm car \( cliff notes version story follows \) 10pm last night , travelling interstate knoxville , taking exit another interstate wife suddenly screamed something large hit side truck slowed , looking back see vandals standing , drove police station get good look guy saw cock arm something size , never saw lucky truck sits high road would hit window , would killed police looking guy , likelyhood gone good driver \( knock wood \) , night time never saw guy police said thought motive hit car , us stop check damage , jump us , take truck please aware folks good , please stop ! ! ! ! peace brian larose larose cs utk edu 12 , rd knoxville , tn long 're subject several years ago two others riding front toyota pickup heading south interstate 5 north seattle , wa someone threw rock overpass hit windshield accident i'm sure , impossible get overpass quickly see figured kids , reported left couple years ago happend killed guy company mid left behind wife children turned reformatory juviniles blocks away caught 14 year old put cover overpass , else could \? n't think 'll forget story neil williams , boeing computer services , bellevue wa
toml miles ca boeing com \( tom \) subject subaru svx good deal \? organization bogart graphics development lines 20 hi netters , friend seriously thinking getting subaru svx local dealer seattle selling , touring package , 's 7400 msrp thinks 's good deal \( think \) since knows access net , would like get anyone 's opinion car , especially area reliability please send e mail friend n't access net opinion car , get lot auto everything \( tranny , climate control , windows , locks , rear \) , full wheel drive , 2 2 , fast \( 143 top \) , heavy \( \) \) thanks ! tom work \( 206 \) 865 boeing computer services e mail toml voodoo boeing com p box 24346 7k 20 uunet ! bcstec ! voodoo ! toml seattle , wa 98124 0346
eliot stalfos engr washington edu \( eliot \) subject open letter nissan \( really station wagon \) organization clearer blir lines 7 distribution na nntp posting host 192 42 145 4 week 's autoweek talks wagons getting back vogue would n't mind audi s4 wagon \( great stealth value \) 'll never catch dead minivan ! eliot
dcd se houston geoquest slb com \( dan day \) subject warning \( please read \) nntp posting host mudd se houston geoquest slb com organization geoquest system , inc houston lines 13 article spool mu edu jason studsys mscs mu edu \( jason hanson \) writes article 1993apr15 024246 8076 virginia edu , ejv2j virginia edu \( erik velapoldi \) happened year ago washington dc beltway snot nosed drunken kids decided would really cool throw huge rocks cars overpass four five cars hit several serious injuries , sadly year ago , kids tossed rock overpass 94 near eau claire , wisconsin killed driver \( believe minnesota \) houston couple years ago young pregnant woman killed similar manner
dcd se houston geoquest slb com \( dan day \) subject car buying story , christ , another dealer service scam nntp posting host mudd se houston geoquest slb com organization geoquest system , inc houston distribution usa lines 57 article 1993apr15 newsgate sps mot com rapw20 email sps mot com writes problem , n't giving money finance guy brought manager duty proceeded give hard time reminded customer n't think treated like n't back could forget whole deal made smart remark told could stick , snatched back check left needless say , pleased turn events 's nothing friend mine went shopping small sedan years ago , brought along token male would n't give treatment first choice mazda 323 , second choice nissan sentra went mazda dealership described wanted started negotiating price , kept playing let run price sales manager playing good salesman , bad salesman game , finally told n't authority negotiate price , perhaps speaking directly someone brought sales manager proceeded dick us around every trick book \( read sutton 's n't get taken every time list \) finally , playing rounds 'll work us price , also known time come thousand dollars 'll come ten , gave signal two sales cronies , stood , said well , ca n't come guess ca n't help room , leaving us sitting salesman 's office hmm 'd read salesmen sometimes bug offices leave listen couples discussing sales offer , mentioned aloud friend sitting wondering would leave us office instead showing us door lack anything better , picked phone desk called another mazda dealership , asked salesman , began discussing kind price would consider sentences conversation , mr broke line \( ! \) began telling rude thought would call another dealership phone ! said since 'd announced business , n't care , every time tried talk sales guy sales manager would voices \( know using phone , anyway \? \) finally , hung headed showroom sales manager cronies come little room begins us say wo n't bother anymore , 're going next door nissan dealership comes part wish could videotaped go front door , sales manager shouts across entire showroom , customers , go ahead ! deserve buy nissan ! friend bought sentra guilty wo n't go , 'll mention sales manager 's name gary manner , refusal come reasonable price , anger end , guess bet original salesman \( young novice \) 'd able get least x dollars us , steamed would n't fall slimy tricks
barnesm sun com \( mark barnes sunsoft \) subject lh workmanship organization sun microsystems , inc lines 6 distribution world reply barnesm sun com nntp posting host corp sun com following example lh day , noticed fit lid rear bumper gap quite small left side , much larger right blech ! ! ! mark
bob1 cos com \( bob blackshaw \) subject fast organization corporation open systems distribution world lines 35 1993apr14 cactus org boyle cactus org \( craig boyle \) writes article umcc umcc umich edu umcc umcc umich edu \( mark hartman \) writes n't know complaining 130 alot us cars easily top go 130 built also handle speed complain join fast fun \? ask speed 130 \? rush driving 130 straight line fine , soon become 's rush corners n't think make clear autobahn , 130 nothing u 99 people judges would label insane difficult persuade people otherwise sure , surface condition good autobahns far better roads dip asphalt test shocks 60 kill 130 n't get wrong , love drive quickly say probe 130 , 's 30 've ever tried cause n't decent enough piece road craig mark hartman umcc umcc umich edu kalamazoo , mi cleveland freenet edu i'm naked school ! bob
camelot bradley edu \( kevin murphy \) subject old license plates wanted nntp posting host camelot bradley edu organization bradley university lines 18 hi roomate going living room thought would cool idea license plate every state us whereever else could find , like canada , , even european ones anyone ideas knows someone could help us please let know recent , better , anything would nice either old plate hanging around \( hint hint ! \) kev camelot bradley edu kevin c murphy 1312 west main street 421 peoria il
subject mgbs real world derek icl co nz \( derek \) organization fujitsu new zealand software development center lines 20 article 1993apr8 hasler ascom ch kevinh hasler ascom ch writes oh yeah , 1975 mini , even anything , could leave mgb standing anywhere except , perhaps , long straight run 90 people bought bought open topped sportscar embodied people thought old fashioned traditional brit sportscar great anything pretty much like people buy mazda mx 5 \( miata \) today small fun fool \( lot people \) performance many far superior \( much expensive \) cars derek derek icl co nz fujitsu new zealand aware dinosaurs worried environmental consequences accident new iridium enriched fusion reactor goes cockroaches mammals survive said
bob1 cos com \( bob blackshaw \) subject dumbest driver action organization corporation open systems distribution usa lines 41 news cso uiuc edu uxa cso uiuc edu \( mark wayne \) writes jimf centerline com \( jim frost \) writes wish figures back , recall statistics showing women tended accidents men damage generally quite minor men fewer far expensive accidents rate total vehicle destruction significantly higher men women , particularly younger male age groups imho social considerations probably strongest influence , possibly difference sexes social influences often affect type car 's bought situations car used , type car driving situations major effect accident risk thus society expects buy mustang race street 're likely , society expects males females agree social influences , driving conditions , lets get real guys n't drag race becuase expected , becuase fun ! \( find whose car faster \) guys drive different women becuase men driver driving , usually figure male female driver without looking driver social influences may give person reason buy vehicle certain amount character would like associated change driving habits one around \? sheesh ! n't know kind women guys live , ladies blow doors least try , ca n't let youngsters get us old folks \) 02 mark b jim frost jimf centerline com bob
dlb5404 tamuts tamu edu \( daryl biberdorf \) subject lh workmanship organization texas university , college station lines 19 nntp posting host tamuts tamu edu article 1993apr15 walter bellcore com jchen ctt bellcore com writes visited ny auto show , saw two lh cars floor eagle vision dodge intrepid competitive price unfortunately , workmanship quite disappointing cars , rubber seals around window door fell turns seals big grooved rubber band goes pressing single data point , draw line want dr bart childs , professor , texas dept computer science pastor 's late model corolla father 's 1987 stanza demonstrated falling door seals problem daryl biberdorf n5gjm biberdorf tamu edu sola gratia sola fide sola scriptura
subject 1993 honda civic byuvm bitnet organization brigham young university lines 8 'd like converse anyone purchased 1993 honda civic experience i'm new car buying game would like know price expect pay sedan bargaining thanks advance , ellen
wl cypress com \( wilbur comm \) subject heard south bay shops \? originator wl coast nntp posting host coast organization cypress semiconductor distribution ba lines 13 need bring vw corrado body work \( got hit \) wondering anyone heard south bay body shops akins collision center santa clara reed st auto west collision san jose los acura royal auto body sunnyvale thanks ! w
alung megatest com \( aaron lung \) subject changing oil self , another dealer service scam organization megatest corporation lines 25 article news ysu edu ak296 yfn ysu edu \( john r daker \) writes worried someone stealing oil also finally decided drain plug welded shut works great ! figure add three four quarts oil light comes every month 's good better old wives tale changing oil filter every 3000 miles works , must say thing drain plug reasons wondering filled though welded hood shut also fear somebody might steal air filter oh come , silly , cut hole hood put tube get oil fill hole think big air intake things hot rod cars \? 're looks little anyone know , provide access oil fill hole well , live , problems vandals stealing people 's wheels locking nuts n't stop safe sure , welded lug nuts wheels together works , serious ! n't wheels stolen yet !
zimmer csufresno edu \( greg lewis \) subject warning \( please read \) keywords brick , truck , danger nntp posting host zimmer csufresno edu organization csu fresno lines 33 article cs utk edu larose austin cs utk edu \( brian larose \) writes warning everybody net watch folks standing next road overpasses cause serious harm car \( cliff notes version story follows \) 10pm last night , travelling interstate knoxville , taking exit another interstate wife suddenly screamed something large hit side truck slowed , looking back see vandals standing , drove police station get good look guy saw cock arm something size , never saw lucky truck sits high road would hit window , would killed police looking guy , likelyhood gone stuff deleted sorry report southern california sick sport drop concrete blocks overpasses onto freeway several persons killed said blocks came many overpass bridges fenced , made illegal bridges \( would stop people \) yet many bridges fenced always look bridge still time take evasive action even though sport reached us fresno greg lewis csufresno edu sequence , department journalism csu fresno , fresno , ca
klf druwa att com \( franklinkl \) subject dumbest automotive concepts time summary continental first n't think ! distribution na lines 30 article 1rm constellation ecn uoknor edu , callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu \( james p callison \) writes article 1993apr13 slcs slb com dcd se houston geoquest slb com \( dan day \) writes article ctron news ctron com smith ctron com writes 's big aftermarket business almost cars come factory , fake convertible job definitely came aftermarket place amazes much people willing pay bad taste really ugly fake wheel compartments stuck onto trunk side \( sides ! \) tacky luxury cars \? 'em n't fake \( 're talking continental kit , named lincoln continental , first car sport one \) personally would love '56 bird continental kit \( supercharged v 8 \) one beautiful cars ever built , imho james continental may first modern era auto mount spare rear car hardly first car sport one various mounting techniques rear mounting spare quite common early automobiles , us foreign ken franklin say 's heaven people wait ama say 's better say ai n't gwrra 'd rather laugh sinners cry saints dod 0126 sinners lots fun , y'know good die young
steve dunham cc utah edu \( steve lee dunham \) subject car buying story , christ , another dealer service scam lines 18 organization university utah distribution usa exactly service incident , similar experience recently bought new truck picked vehicle wanted little haggling agreed price wrote check payment plus tax license told 'd back evening pick truck returned , wait hour finance guy could get finally got , everything went smoothly started adding numbers discovered miscalculated tax license 150 seems popular scam dealers last month brother bought new audi 90 series local dealer came back final price , tax , added happened extra 300 tagged tax part pointed error asked think addition came back right price next time
cs173sbw sdcc5 ucsd edu \( cs173sbw \) subject cizeta v16t \? lines 22 nntp posting host sdcc5 ucsd edu article crh regent e technik tu muenchen de crh regent e technik tu muenchen dbp de \( christian huebner \) writes remember reading track competition car magazine , featured , diablo v16t result would expected cizeta slowest three , also dropped halfway 's test laps smoking brakes sportscar showed ridiculous performance hm find hard believe v16t weights red head , hell lot horse power perhaps 's due pre production \? well , , still got imposing styling among sports cars seen bye chris crh regent e technik tu muenchen de ferrari f40 best sportscar ever built ! personally , n't like cars rely turbo power guess everyone favorite car
rkim eecg toronto edu \( ryan kim \) subject new break pads exhausts km \( 60k mi \) '90 maxima \? organization csri , university toronto lines 43 hi , maybe someone help looking buy 1990 nissan maxima gxe cdn right car km \( miles \) typical mileage 1990 cars seem km \( mi \) seller informed brought car certification told front break pads exhausts replaced meet legal standards \( said replace components selling car \) ignorant technical stuff cars , n't know could mean km time typical replacing mentioned items \? indication car abused \? would things break replaced soon \? seller told used car highway lot , , n't know verify 've seen paint chipped away tiny dots front edge hood , though although maxima excellent car car clean well kept , 's currently warranty \( similarly priced '90 accord 70k km 2 years 30k km worth warranty left \) n't want worry paying repair bills , also need car 5 people new maxima come , way \? would much appreciate input please reply e mail \( preferred \) post newsgroup thanks ! ryan ryan kim university toronto , eecg , computer graphics rkim eecg toronto edu traffic cones road works new british highway code \( toronto star april 3 , 1993 \)
cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu \( oriolefan uiuc \) subject instead saturn sc2 , \? \? \? distribution na organization university illinois urbana lines 39 srihari cirrus com \( srihari \) writes ifn andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu \( jason roth \) writes r article cars sc1 ilk liked civic ex , escort gt mx 3 best , sc1 way list except braking looked article first , summary inaccurate 10 cars , sc1 5th , right behind mentioned suzuki swift \( ! \) pointed , semi silly comparison saturn least 500 cheaper mx 3 escort \( admittedly negligible , issue \) , 1500 \( ! \) less honda stated goal base 12k honda 500 , sc2 price excluded words , let best honda play , best saturn note saturn beat 13k dont know car comparison far price goes rest assured street prices mx 3 escort \( maybe \) even honda lesser saturn 're talking price comparisons 've seen based msrp course saturn dealer sell car sticker price whereas others way sticker srihari 'd hate rehash old thread , would someone kindly quote prices dealer quotes civic ex , escort gt also , i'm assuming mx 3 v 6 , go ahead look , someone one yearly guides give low quote price , please quote , find sc1 base price thanks chintan amin university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu neil peart , \( c \) 1981 quick judge , quick anger , slow understand , ignorance prejudice fear walk hand hand
jchen wind bellcore com \( jason chen \) subject lh workmanship nntp posting host wind bellcore com organization bellcore lines 28 article tamsun tamu edu dlb5404 tamuts tamu edu \( daryl biberdorf \) writes article 1993apr15 walter bellcore com jchen ctt bellcore com writes visited ny auto show , saw two lh cars floor eagle vision dodge intrepid competitive price unfortunately , workmanship quite disappointing cars , rubber seals around window door fell turns seals big grooved rubber band goes pressing single data point , draw line want dr bart childs , professor , texas dept computer science wrong got two points , 100 sample space show floor previous quote , guess may line \? pastor 's late model corolla father 's 1987 stanza demonstrated falling door seals problem unfair may seem , difference chrysler toyota chrysler needs prove build quality cars toyota afford make small mistakes without hurting image , door seal failing 6 year old stanza comparable problem brand new jason chen
tedebear leland stanford edu \( theodore chen \) subject open letter nissan \( really station wagon \) organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa distribution na lines 10 article apr16 engr washington edu eliot stalfos engr washington edu \( eliot \) writes week 's autoweek talks wagons getting back vogue would n't mind audi s4 wagon \( great stealth value \) 'll never catch dead minivan ! even minivan based viper running gear \? teddy p think audi s4 gets 4 2 liter v 8 next year
callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu \( james p callison \) subject trains busses radar \? nntp posting host uokmax ecn uoknor edu organization engineering computer network , university oklahoma , norman , ok , usa lines 32 article 1993apr15 1 bronco fnal gov colombo bronco fnal gov \( rick 'open vms colombo \) writes n't know trains , 've saw sign back greyhound bus warns radar detector may set n't explain , set radar detector greyhound apparently gotten around installing radar collision prevention system use radar monitor close vehicles fast relative speeds , signals warning driver 're coming something fast getting close remember news reports months back time , talking possibility installing system \( n't mention worked bumper bumper traffic , discriminated camaro approaching 120mph ye olde bridge support median approached 60mph curve \) recall something progressive stages warnings , flashing lights audible warnings ie , goes red close light hysterically screaming going die ! ! ! ! \) james james p callison microcomputer coordinator , u oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i'm engineer , play one work forecast calls thunder '89 bird sc 's hell thing , killing man take away 's ever gonna munny , unforgiven
scott psy uwa oz au \( scott fisher \) subject mgbs real world organization university western australia lines 28 nntp posting host psy uwa oz au derek icl co nz \( derek \) writes people bought bought open topped sportscar embodied people thought old fashioned traditional brit sportscar great anything pretty much like people buy mazda mx 5 \( miata \) today small fun fool \( lot people \) performance many far superior \( much expensive \) cars fairly hard run mx5 , lack power surely make handling great back streets heaps corners fairly light car low center gravity quite free revving dohc engine , fun car driven turbo converted mx5 \? starting perform ! 've often thought mazda rotary would go well anyone done \? regards scott scott fisher scott psy uwa oz au ph aus 61 perth \( 09 \) local \( 380 \) n department psychology w e university western australia perth , nedlands , 6009 perth , w v joy jaguar flat battery , blown oil seal unsympathetic wife , outside small remote town , 3 15am cold wet winters morning
callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu \( james p callison \) subject warning \( please read \) nntp posting host uokmax ecn uoknor edu organization engineering computer network , university oklahoma , norman , ok , usa lines 40 article 1993apr15 icf hrb com jek icf hrb com \( joe \) writes \( deleted name n't want sound remark \) another occasion , way texas florida , stopped small motel night small town somewhere florida 5 youths disturbing car , setting alarm challenging come another tenant walked 357 magnum 45 automatic respectively , vanished needless say , immediately packed left watch car jacking staged accidents deadly ! i'm going argue issue carrying weapons , would ask would thought seriously shooting kid setting alarm \? think worse things world glad got anything give reason fire gun hear someone screwing car \( ie , setting alarm \) taunting come , damn sure colt delta elite also coming 's screwing car 'd get shot , 's potential physical danger 're taunting like , 's possible also intend rob physically harmful things 're screwing around , harm done 're bent mayhem , receive cure lead deficiency injection 1200 fps 's telling today 's violent criminals death may pleasant outcome james james p callison microcomputer coordinator , u oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i'm engineer , play one work forecast calls thunder '89 bird sc 's hell thing , killing man take away 's ever gonna munny , unforgiven
boyle cactus org \( craig boyle \) subject new break pads exhausts km \( 60k mi \) '90 maxima \? organization capital area central texas unix society , austin , tx lines 78 article 1993apr16 jarvis csri toronto edu rkim eecg toronto edu \( ryan kim \) writes hi , maybe someone help looking buy 1990 nissan maxima gxe cdn right automatic \? n't know us spec cdn spec car km \( miles \) typical mileage 1990 cars seem km \( mi \) seller informed brought car certification told front break pads exhausts replaced meet legal standards \( said replace components selling car \) ignorant technical stuff cars , n't know could mean km time typical replacing mentioned items \? indication car abused \? first set brake pads front , fine car eats set every 15k miles fact replacing muffler also ok would things break replaced soon \? mileage fairly low typical fwd stuff cv joints check maintenance records manufacturers requirements valve adjustments , timing belt changes 60k mile service often expensive , make sure done everything seller told used car highway lot , , n't know verify 've seen paint chipped away tiny dots front edge hood , though well , one commonly cited methods identifying car highway miles might check gas pedal wear ask many sets tires highway car might squeezed 2 sets , hard driven car 6 10 sets although maxima excellent car car clean well kept , 's currently warranty \( similarly priced '90 accord 70k km 2 years 30k km worth warranty left \) n't want worry paying repair bills well , maxima pretty reliable warranty get checked someone knowledgeable first stuff japanese cars expensive , also need car 5 people new maxima come , way \? 1995 model year , believe would much appreciate input please reply e mail \( preferred \) post newsgroup craig thanks ! ryan ryan kim university toronto , eecg , computer graphics rkim eecg toronto edu traffic cones road works new british highway code \( toronto star april 3 , 1993 \)
callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu \( james p callison \) subject dumbest automotive concepts time nntp posting host uokmax ecn uoknor edu organization engineering computer network , university oklahoma , norman , ok , usa lines 26 article 1993apr15 cactus org boyle cactus org \( craig boyle \) writes article news cso uiuc edu cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu \( oriolefan uiuc \) writes n't original intent reverse lights driver , could see backing \? \? \? although reverse lights sides reverse lights warn others backing n't bright enough \( typically \) see without brake tail lights n't know live , could n't get driveway night without reverse lights someone said , country notice neat little things like stars difference day night night around house \( amongst forest rather tall oaks \) dark , except nights full moons reverse lights illuminate path well backing greatly prefer cars cars without operational reverse lights james james p callison microcomputer coordinator , u oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i'm engineer , play one work forecast calls thunder '89 bird sc 's hell thing , killing man take away 's ever gonna munny , unforgiven
qazi csd4 csd uwm edu \( aamir hafeez qazi \) subject cizeta v16t \? organization university wisconsin milwaukee lines 20 reply qazi csd4 csd uwm edu nntp posting host 129 89 7 4 originator qazi csd4 csd uwm edu cs173sbw sdcc5 ucsd edu \( cs173sbw \) writes anyone know venerable v16t ! \? claudio done enhancement \? pictures beast ftp somewhere \? thanks p better , seen rc model beauty \? \) autoweek article car within past six weeks issue diablo vt awd cover naturally , n't remember date issue offhand , check anyone interested aamir qazi aamir qazi qazi csd4 csd uwm edu care \? 'd rather watch drying paint
qazi csd4 csd uwm edu \( aamir hafeez qazi \) subject bmw 3 series 94 \? organization university wisconsin milwaukee lines 14 reply qazi csd4 csd uwm edu nntp posting host 129 89 7 4 originator qazi csd4 csd uwm edu article slip nts uci edu , orion oac uci edu \( alvin \) going bmw 328 1994 \? could n't 2 5 liter six supposed enlarged 2 8 liters distant future \? aamir qazi aamir qazi qazi csd4 csd uwm edu care \? 'd rather watch drying paint
qazi csd4 csd uwm edu \( aamir hafeez qazi \) subject instead saturn sc2 , \? \? \? organization university wisconsin milwaukee lines 22 distribution na reply qazi csd4 csd uwm edu nntp posting host 129 89 7 4 originator qazi csd4 csd uwm edu article hp col col hp com , col hp com \( tim \) interested got fully \( air , abs , sunroof \) '92 se r september 1991 13 , 555 sacramento , ca one 1st sold , dealers , local dealer abs equipped se r went straight fleet manager dealership liked , told wanted , made aware knew price called back exactly wanted dealer away , took delivery next day selling last summer , sold '92 se r early august supply getting quite scarce car black abs , value option pkg , power moonroof sold 12 , 900 plus tax naturally , manager n't really care sell one desirable se r 's virtually profit \( best knowledge \) aamir qazi aamir qazi qazi csd4 csd uwm edu care \? 'd rather watch drying paint
cup portal com \( r laser \) subject dumbest automotive concepts time organization portal system \( tm \) acs ucalgary ca news cso uiuc edu 1993apr15 cactus org lines 25 reverse lights warn others backing n't bright enough \( typically \) see without brake tail lights craig perhaps instead silly argument backup lights , could n't agree serve dual purpose letting people behind car know reverse also light area behind car 're backing see \? backup lamps current models much brighter used older cars taurus wagon quite bright enough illuminate good area behind car , 're much brighter earlier cars 60s 70s insofar vettes side backup lights , look '92 '93 model \( perhaps year two earlier \) 'll see red side marker lamps white side marker lamps near car 's n't white
eliot lanmola engr washington edu \( eliot \) subject station wagons \( open letter nissan organization clearer blir lines 30 distribution na nntp posting host lanmola engr washington edu article 1993apr16 leland stanford edu tedebear leland stanford edu \( theodore chen \) writes 'll never catch dead minivan ! even minivan based viper running gear \? hmmmm sure , since beast exists tell another though wo n't catch dead gmc syclone typhoon either , 1000 bhp even fact clint eastwood one taste , rational reasons teddy p think audi s4 gets 4 2 liter v 8 next year car tested s4 wagon 5 banger 6 speed manual rave review except servotronic audi trying development costs v8 , since v8 selling well , sticking 100 series cars neat marketing trick , eh \? yeah , 100 v8 would n't bad idea competition upcoming bimmer 530 would \? maybe use 3 6 liter version avoid conflicts v8 model strip luxo garbage let s4 remain flared arches fat tires go fight m5 maybe turn boost wee bit bump bhp say 450 \) keeping 100 v8 mercedes style subtlety blah blah blah eliot
tedebear leland stanford edu \( theodore chen \) subject mgbs real world organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa lines 11 article uniwa uwa oz au scott psy uwa oz au \( scott fisher \) writes driven turbo converted mx5 \? starting perform ! 've often thought mazda rotary would go well anyone done \? , somebody 's dropped ford 302 v 8 miata , somewhat reminiscent shelby cobra car 's obviously nimble , 's supposed near 50 50 weight distribution handle well 'd sure love drive one teddy
dye lachman com \( ken r dye \) subject feedback requested lowering '66 mustang nntp posting host london i88 isc com organization lachman technology , inc , naperville , il lines 28 article vllyoak resun com jp vllyoak resun com \( jeff perry \) writes found kit advertised lowering front end early mustang installation moving upper arm installation wedge shaped spacer arm ball joint apparently , shelby mustangs modification , left spacer would interested feedback , pro con , modification i'm mustang head , n't early ones simple strut suspension \( , upper arm \) \? strut going lower control arm \( single bushing arm \) , tension compression rod locating forward backward direction \? anyway , simple strut like lowered using shorter springs , cutting springs , lowering spring shortening strut cases , suspension geometry suffer lower control arms intended angle spacer placed control arm bottom strut \( roughly height reduction \) restore suspension geometry imho , kit includes spacer way go ken ken r dye optimist guy lachman technology , inc , chicago never \( 708 \) 505 9555 much experience dye lachman com
kevinh hslrswi hasler ascom ch \( kevinh \) subject warning \( please read \) originator kevinh nath reply kevinh hasler ascom ch organization ascom hasler ag lines 20 article boi hp com , boi hp com \( wes fujii \) writes brian larose \( larose austin cs utk edu \) wrote never saw guy police said thought motive hit car , us stop check damage , jump us , take truck please aware folks good , please stop ! ! ! ! sad sort thing rise across country south florida getting lot national tv coverage subject attacked \( killed \) schemes similar make worldwide coverage know numerous people planning holidays florida , chosen another \( non us \) destination expect sort thing , perhaps , third world countries us ! kevinh hasler ascom ch
david ganglion ann arbor mi us \( david hwang \) subject sho sc organization j services lines 21 article unisql uucp wrat unisql uucp \( wharfie \) writes article netcom com chriss netcom com \( chris silvester \) writes wagon , heard somehow slightly faster coupe wagon automatic , 's slower could due rear end ratio also usually automatics different rear ends manuals , limited experience anyways david david w hwang , university michigan medical school 1050 wall street , suite telephone 313 663 ann arbor , michigan internet david ganglion ann arbor mi us
thwang mentor cc purdue edu \( tommy hwang \) subject \? \? ! ! organization purdue university computing center lines 12 sorry mis spelling , forgot spell series exams hand reference still possible get cute wwii vw jeep wanna 's \? replica would great think '93 convert c 128 , anything ! !
levels unisa edu au subject aussie needs info car shows reply johnt levels unisa edu au organization university south australia lines 54 hi australia , car enthusiast australia particularly interested american muscle cars 1960s 1970s makes amc , ford , chrysler mopar , gm usa 6 weeks may 2nd june 14 1993 chicago sun may 2 thursday may 6 denver friday may 7 sunday may 9 austin , texas monday may 10 friday may 21 oklahoma city friday may 21 monday may 24 anaheim , california tuesday may 25 thursday may 27 las vegas , nevada friday may 28 sunday may 30 grand , monday may 31 tuesday june 1 las angeles , san diego vicinity wednesday june 3 sunday june 6 june south lake tahoe , cal sunday june 6 wednesday june 9 reno thursday june 10 san thursday june 10 sunday june 13 wondering anyone could send information car shows , swap meets , drag meets , model car shows etc period anybody tell pomona swap meet year \? also , places visit \( eg car museums , private collections , collection \? etc bit information appreciated ! also interested finding model cars \( scale models \) 1968 1974 amc cars particular interest 1968 1970 1968 1974 javelin 1969 scrambler 1970 rebel machine others kits , plastics , etc interested selling , tell , interested also send bring models australian high performance cars interested please reply email johnt levels unisa edu au thanks , john
levels unisa edu au subject aussie needs info usa car shows swap meets reply johnt levels unisa edu au organization university south australia lines 54 hi australia , car enthusiast australia particularly interested american muscle cars 1960s 1970s makes amc , ford , chrysler mopar , gm usa 6 weeks may 2nd june 14 1993 chicago sun may 2 thursday may 6 denver friday may 7 sunday may 9 austin , texas monday may 10 friday may 21 oklahoma city friday may 21 monday may 24 anaheim , california tuesday may 25 thursday may 27 las vegas , nevada friday may 28 sunday may 30 grand , monday may 31 tuesday june 1 las angeles , san diego vicinity wednesday june 3 sunday june 6 june south lake tahoe , cal sunday june 6 wednesday june 9 reno thursday june 10 san thursday june 10 sunday june 13 wondering anyone could send information car shows , swap meets , drag meets , model car shows etc period anybody tell pomona swap meet year \? also , places visit \( eg car museums , private collections , collection \? etc bit information appreciated ! also interested finding model cars \( scale models \) 1968 1974 amc cars particular interest 1968 1970 1968 1974 javelin 1969 scrambler 1970 rebel machine others kits , plastics , etc interested selling , tell , interested also send bring models australian high performance cars interested please reply email johnt levels unisa edu au thanks , john
eric thomas mindlink bc ca \( eric thomas \) subject 1962 organization mind link ! british columbia , canada lines 4 bought 1962 bird would like info club around b c coast eric thomas
bjones trentu ca \( name \) subject warning \( please read \) reply bjones trentu ca organization trent university , peterborough lines 26 article 1993apr16 hasler ascom ch , kevinh hslrswi hasler ascom ch \( kevinh \) writes article boi hp com , boi hp com \( wes fujii \) writes brian larose \( larose austin cs utk edu \) wrote never saw guy police said thought motive hit car , us stop check damage , jump us , take truck please aware folks good , please stop ! ! ! ! sad sort thing rise across country south florida getting lot national tv coverage subject attacked \( killed \) schemes similar make worldwide coverage know numerous people planning holidays florida , chosen another \( non us \) destination expect sort thing , perhaps , third world countries us ! response articles written subject , would like say us problem southern ontario last summer several instances along 401 people \( mainly \) shot overpasses many sick people makes wonder worlds coming kevinh hasler ascom ch
dbernard clesun central sun com \( dave bernard \) subject jeep wrangler organization sun microsystems lines 35 distribution world reply dbernard clesun central sun com nntp posting host clesun central sun com article vu vlsi ee vill edu , mobasser vu vlsi ee vill edu \( bijan mobasseri \) writes square respectable resale value \? easy 's expensive buy new , 's gonna expensive buy used patently false statement try logic alfa 164 fact , marketplace mechanism adjust value cars overpriced manufacturer expensive buy new necessarily buy used fact , could real cheap buy used , depending car course note question statements reliability wrangler never owned one , driven one one \( love one though ! \) n't understand apparent neglect quality many years filtered used market jeep , make purchase fatal attraction \? bijan yep popular vehicles n't see lot previous model year ones sitting dealer 's lots time new ones things sell , popular popular , high priced new , high price used , simple knew overpriced bought knew terrible reliability record bought n't expect anything like got , especially dealer network unable repair personal experience quickly cured machine dave
dalibor informatik uni erlangen de \( stefan dalibor \) subject fast organization csd , university erlangen reply dalibor uni erlangen de nntp posting host informatik uni erlangen de lines 85 jimf centerline com \( jim frost \) writes things keep mind europe , since brought autobahn knowledge admittedly second hand , believe following true knowledge driving u also second hand , think correct statements autobahn 1 drivers much better disciplined europe oh yeah , would paradise fact , forget 've heard u relatives , drivers esp germany much , disciplined one relatives , l resident , hired car airport went 18 miles home said grew 1 year older ride swore 'd never drive car germany \( 1982 kept promise situation even worse effect increased volume traffic \) mean perhaps considered due driving around , always take consideration majority drivers absolutely relies expect nobody fails sleeps many exploit driving fast car go \( course allowed , might think dream \) mistake make high risk health 're ex posed situation first day driver , learn handle lose 's way people know experience traffic situation whether think pleasant efficient think handle high volume traffic high speeds modest \( compared volume \) decreasing rates lethal accidents otoh , people \( esp women \) dislike driving \( feel threatened \) accident one accident much 2 roads comprising autobahn much better designed , usually include animal fences makes far predictable us highways better designed maintained , may animal fences rare auto many streets guard rails \( hope 's right word made thick steel sheet fixed 's 2 feet high \) guard rails designed keeping vehicles road smaller animals crawl , bigger ones easily jump point esp larger animals rare germany tend also accidents caused animals danger 3 europe autobahn places europe speed limits n't line used us friends n't lying 're typically much higher h 're right \( speed even major part autobahn \) attitude towards driving \( see \) seems similar germany \( 've france , switzerland , italy , austria , spain , belgium , netherlands \) besides , really ca n't rely residents abiding local speed limits 've got quite lot practise \( 120k miles \) i'm used travel 130 mph \( fyi , car even smaller rabbit \) , consider driving highways round paris milano really thrill strongly suspect wo n't find lot rabbit owners 120mph \( nearly h \) autobahn , could wrong sorry , 'll find quite lot rabbit class car \( even smaller , mine 205 \) owners going fast small cars much hp people buying cars n't afraid let run people respect lives disagree size weight car rather irrelevant formula 1 cars weigh less 700 kg drivers chance survive accidents 130 mph higher otoh crashing solid object 130 mph , makes difference whether sit porsche , mercedes , tank bicycle 're dead bye , stefan stefan dalibor \( dalibor uni erlangen de \) next case kangaroo court , accuse reincarnation adolf hitler n't think mere denials sufficient submit examinations personally select perry metzger \( pmetzger shearson com \) article 2074 news admin policy
dbernard clesun central sun com \( dave bernard \) subject ad said nissan altima best seller \? organization sun microsystems lines 9 distribution world reply dbernard clesun central sun com nntp posting host clesun central sun com puzzled obvious untruth think going nissan claims altima best selling new car us \( think near verbatim \) lee 's statistics dept would proud sentence note corolla prism also new designs hey new guess nissan n't even sell many toyota , would nameplate qualifier
sjp atl hp com \( steve phillips \) subject super mega automobile sighting \( \) ! ! ! ! ! exotics together ! organization hewlett packard atlanta x newsreader tin 1 1 3 pl5 lines 8 give address , 'll drive take look , post stephen phillips atlanta response center atlanta , ga home braves !
sad hp com \( jack \) subject tires ford ranger pickup organization hp sonoma county \( srsd mwtd mid \) x newsreader tin version 1 1 4 pl6 lines 3 good luck ranger 371 tires tires wearing well even times hauled heavy loads done well
damelio progress com \( stephen d'amelio \) subject ford automobile nntp posting host organization progress software corp lines 19 eis calstate edu \( russel wong \) writes hello , name russell wong research project henry ford automobile need information whether ford partially responsible car accidents ya , cut 128 day , drives like crazy person 'd say 's responsible accidents , really pull licence steve 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 alan kulwicki 1992 winston cup champion 1954 1993 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7
chuck eos ncsu edu \( chuck kesler \) subject ford probe opinions \? \( centered around gt \) organization north carolina state university , project eos lines 143 article 1993apr20 sco com sco com \( nathan \) writes jeremy g mereness zonker cmu edu says anyone offer opinions ford probe ala long run , repair records , reliability , mileage , etc \? fixing buy car next months aiming toward something little bigger typical small car little power considering mx 6 , probe , accord , corolla , 240sx bought '93 probe gt pep last july \( 9500 miles \) debating sentra se r nx2000 , , mr 2 , stealth , prelude , celica car design different earlier years , 's early see reliability far 's worth , comments dislikes shutting door windows inside rarely makes good wind seal owners ford probe world std com mailing list commented problem , n't seen happen 3 month old '93 probe gt think may something ford corrected since initial batch cars also , someone said ford issued service bulletin inform dealers correct problem , may able get dealer fix headlights stuck times \( weather \? \) air conditioning broke 4000 miles \( pressure cycling switch \) around rear washer fluid container n't drain completely n't seen problems , seen mentioned mailing list , might bad luck engine little hope yourselfers \( typical \) definitely ! parts somewhat expensive normal ford parts underside plastic n't like sharp driveways \( typical \) assembly gripes tape radiator , screw fell dash , seat seams properly hopefully fluke problems like either n't able find obvious places screwed ford gives 1 key car c'mon ford , spend extra pennies ! hmmm ! got two keys car something tells got dealer \( actually , count credit card key came owner 's binder , got 3 keys , since credit card key n't teeth cut yet , guess wo n't count \) \) rear hatch padding corners i'm waiting day bash head corner horn buttons behind air bag spokes center \( personal preference \) latter probably air bag 's pretty much takes space 'd expect find horn speaking horn , surprised find probe comes one nice sounding horns instead japanese sounding kind previous probes japanese horns tires fling dirt mud onto side car yeah , badly , enough annoying sometimes likes engine \( design valves sounds power mileage torque \) definitely 1 handling \( good fwd understeer limits \) transmission \( 5 speed must \) usable instrumentation \( lovely readable analog everywhere \) little torque steer full power \( much better '90 sho drive \) stability 100 mph \( high gearing though \) low \( good visibility front \) heated outside mirrors \( nice fog , never tested freezing weather \) abs air bag \( see \) rear seats fold \( rear seat passengers trunk important \) shake rattle noises going bumps potholes \( still ! \) tires 225 goodyear eagles \( 70 left hoping 30k \) agree strongly , especially engine interior , nice pleasing eye , ergonomically sound drive work day relatively smooth roads , noticable thing probe 's suspension n't like potholes test drive one , find road somewhere around town see jarring get tolerable yes , car 's stiff suspension n't everyone personally like , find little harsh otherwise like car , 'd strongly suggest looking mx 6 3 passengers , means bring along 'll find room back 'll find car rides differently \( 's better \) problem back seat 's leg room plenty head room , though shorter people fit back without complaints , long seat sitting behind pulled forward bit give place put feet also , 's lot glass around n't expecting temperature inside car gets pretty hot summer back seat passengers \( \) complain lack ventilation may want consider combined heat power moonroof greatly improve ventilation throughout car \) really enjoy moonroof , way , 've always sucker open air driving leakage problems anything like yet ! 've heard exhaust system trouble , mine works fine n't heard one know early probes \( '89 maybe '90 \) problems prematurely mufflers \( ford replace charge \) , n't heard anything like concerning '93 probes n't real trouble car outside cv joint boot leaking , dealer took care promptly , even gave free rental car day half without car quite happy way handled especially considering expecting worst ! 've heard , sounds like ford mazda qc problems probe \( probably mx 6 \) first went production , think problems mostly corrected point 's almost always expected completely new car like , though hope helps , chuck chuck kesler internet chuck eos ncsu edu unix systems programmer us mail box , ncsu campus engineering computer operations raleigh , nc usa north carolina state university phone 1 919 515
questor sw stratus com \( ken \) subject sticky lock tailgate organization stratus computer , software engineering lines 17 distribution world nntp posting host questor sw stratus com 1988 toyota 4runner rear window keylock switch sticky yesterday tough get key work also happened stick direction stalled motor powered night killing battery 'd like try lubricate lock switch lubricate lock \? email please , thanx , ken n't drink american corporate support local micro brewery
etxmst sta ericsson se \( markus strobl 98121 \) subject renting alamo nntp posting host st83 ericsson se reply etxmst sta ericsson se organization ericsson telecom ab lines 20 hello netters ! i'm visiting us \( i'm sweden \) august probably rent chevy beretta alamo 've quoted 225 week 54 additional days would include free driving distance , local taxes \( baltimore \) also told insurance thats necessary included , doubt , 'cause friend rented car last year turned needed lot insurance 's included base price hand n't rent alamo anyone info \? 225 rip \? probability 'll needing insurance \? beretta good rental car \? thanx markus
jimf centerline com \( jim frost \) subject dumbest automotive concepts time organization centerline software , inc lines 17 distribution na nntp posting host 140 239 3 202 nancy hayduke \( nancy feagans \) writes ashtrays cigarette lighters option gm , least , heading direction one post sale questions asked 'd like choice cigarette liter accessory plug , another whether 'd like choice ashtray cup holder '93 geo storms cigarette lighter vs accessory plug option \( exist '92 bought \) i'm sure ash tray vs cup holder 's step right direction ashtray make convenient change holder 's completely useless jim frost jimf centerline com
markm bigfoot sps mot com \( mark monninger \) subject haggle deals save \? \? \? nntp posting host 223 250 10 7 reply rapw20 email sps mot com organization sps distribution usa lines 3 sure would n't n't advantage mark
jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu \( john f nielsen \) subject ford probe opinions \? \( centered around gt \) nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 21 article 1993apr20 5357 ncsu edu chuck eos ncsu edu \( chuck kesler \) writes rear hatch padding corners i'm waiting day bash head corner horn buttons behind air bag spokes center \( personal preference \) latter probably air bag 's pretty much takes space 'd expect find horn airbags real horn come , hard put little pressure plate hope toyota n't follow everyone else make horns little buttons would n't want john john nielsen magnus consultant baldrick , renaissance something happened people , n't \? black adder
wrat unisql uucp \( wharfie \) subject 's rush \( fast \) distribution usa organization unisql , inc , austin , texas , usa lines 12 article mentor cc purdue edu marshatt feserve cc purdue edu \( zauberer \) writes guess n't clear enough said roads designed speeds 80 still safe current 55 65 add saftey margin designed speeds upwards 80 forget exact spec military vehicles 's 80 1958 dodge powerwagon 80 1993 ford taurus
wrat unisql uucp \( wharfie \) subject get new york taxi \? distribution na organization unisql , inc , austin , texas , usa lines 7 article srgenprp sr hp com sr hp com \( bob \) writes hose h e dork r k
grahamt phantom gatech edu \( graham e thomas \) subject super mega automobile sighting \( \) ! ! ! ! ! exotics together ! organization georgia institute technology lines 36 nntp posting host oit gatech edu alright , beat automobile sighting driving along hair north atlanta , noticed old , run former car dealership appeared deal , repair , older rare exotic foreign sports cars saw ford gt 40 \( ! \) , famous model ford , seemed win races late 60s , including le mans 4 6 times two jensen interceptors , one , one hatchback \? porsche 911 \( boring compared rest \) three , , 308 prepared racing , red 60s model could n't identify bottom , late 70s mg outside rover 3500 , never regularly sold u showroom , small italian body , either alpha romeo size austin mini missing , exposing boot voltage regulator upper left corner wall , chunk metal removed floor right hand side something would leave trunk go outside taillights looked like would round type \( \) anyone know make one \? certainly made day graham e thomas blah blah blah blah blah georgia institute technology blah blah blah blah blah internet grahamt oit gatech edu blah blah blah blah blah
hplsla hp com \( thatch harvey \) subject mercury capri restrictions organization hp lake stevens , wa lines 24 restriction could car convertible lot laws passed concerning convertibles 80 's states may require greater rollover protection capri thatch harvey thatch harvey uucp \( longer valid \) domain hplsla hp com hewlett packard lake stevens instrument division lake stevens , wa \( 206 \) 335 merkur , suzuki , prince sports racer
hplsla hp com \( thatch harvey \) subject removing rain x coat front windshield , tips \? organization hp lake stevens , wa lines 21 want summer without rain , 're wrong place must whole year yet keep rain x handy friend thatch thatch harvey uucp \( longer valid \) domain hplsla hp com hewlett packard lake stevens instrument division lake stevens , wa \( 206 \) 335 merkur , suzuki , prince sports racer
jfox hooksett east sun com \( john fox ir \) subject 's rush \( fast \) organization sun microsystems , inc lines 50 distribution world reply jfox hooksett east sun com nntp posting host hooksett east sun com article unisql uucp , wrat unisql uucp \( wharfie \) writes article mentor cc purdue edu marshatt feserve cc purdue edu \( zauberer \) writes guess n't clear enough said roads designed speeds 80 still safe current 55 65 add saftey margin designed speeds upwards 80 forget exact spec military vehicles 's 80 1958 dodge powerwagon 80 1993 ford taurus ah yes , 58 powerwagon vehicle today 's cars ca n't touch terms high speed road holding ability ! \)
grahamt phantom gatech edu \( graham e thomas \) subject blast past ! organization georgia institute technology lines 17 nntp posting host oit gatech edu amh2 ns1 cc lehigh edu \( alois himsl \) writes worthwhile \? something like old mgb new technology \? think old style upgraded safety features perhaps natural gas operated engine less 10k think would go well opinion \? \? \? \? \? \? al h well , mgb currently production english market , built rover v8 , improved , slightly updated body bad 's available gb would set one us back 42 , 000 graham e thomas blah blah blah blah blah georgia institute technology blah blah blah blah blah internet grahamt oit gatech edu blah blah blah blah blah
carson u washington edu \( ns x \) subject 300zx sc300 \? \? \? organization university washington , seattle lines 18 nntp posting host carson u washington edu ip02 ns1 cc lehigh edu \( danny phornprapha \) writes i'm getting car near future 've narrow 300zx sc300 might better choice \? thanks opnion , danny 've asking question past year , , find , would please share answer way see right , work twice hard cheers \) issa suggestion work twice hard \( like issa suggested \) get acura \? ! \) enjoy
rjwade rainbow ecn purdue edu \( robert j wade \) subject '93 grand \( 4 cyl \) organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 16 article ctron com ctron com \( edgar w ii \) writes article apr 18 12 24 26 1993 remus rutgers edu remus rutgers edu \( ray \) writes hi back asking info different models , grand one response generally favorable one thing often repeated go v6 real power point well taken , anybody input 4 cylinders \( standard , quad 4 \) \? ray , high output quad 4 delivers 175 hp \( 185 quad 4 \) , whereas 3 1l v6 offered grand delivers 140 hp beretta gtz v6 grand 3 3 litre , 3 1 3 3 version 3 8 litre v6 3 1 v6 goes beretta
ritvax isc rit edu subject buick heater controls nntp posting host vaxa isc rit edu reply ritvax isc rit edu organization rochester institute technology distribution usa lines 1 exactly problem '70 also cal go local pick diaphragm '68 heater set worked , little bit slow change vents better nothing !
rjwade rainbow ecn purdue edu \( robert j wade \) subject improvements automatic transmissions organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 36 article quad wfunet wfu edu hagenjd wfu edu \( jeff hagen \) writes thanx responded , particularly never driven xxx 's 's like guys ok , know new age 's great traffic , satisfactory job acceleration keep foot buried carpet question regards downshifting downshifting pass \( 's good \) , manually moving lever 3 , 2 , 1 point would downshift manual e g approaching red light , curve , around parking lot 1st 2nd w shifting i'm still manual trans bigot downshifting deceleration seems natural try automatic , tranny n't seem understand want addendum n't great , downshifting approaching red light , light goes green , 're already cam \( turbo 's already ! \) ! hagen \( hagenjd ac wfu edu \) grand auto quad4 around gear selector plastic strip covers space ca n't see inside anyway took cover cut end long strip specific length , strip curls one end inside anyway , strip ca n't feed lip circles , , , , push button , pull gear shifter go back 2 drive , , , accidental hitting first drive around town 2 keep revs shift drive 50 pull 2 coming lights want eating food drive drive probably aftermarket shift kits accomplish thing porsche 's tip tronic automatic driven like auto put mode tip tip downshift course override n't redline engine
cc bellcore com \( ross , l \) subject braindead drivers n't look ahead organization bellcore , livingston , nj distribution usa keywords bad drivers lines 44 article tekig7 pen tek com , tekig5 pen tek com \( loke lim \) writes article 1993apr14 cbnewsd cb att com hhm cbnewsd cb att com \( herschel h mayo \) writes anybody going anywhere , block would passers good , well even though often stupid realize ah , looking good people like concerned group citizens absolutely disgusted way majority drivers simply disobey traffic rules like going speed limit , passing right , riding tails , respectfully abide rules great country maintain mandated speed limits calibrated , certified cruise controls , keeping respectful 1 5 car length distance 10 mph speed many times ticked moron jumps ahead \( 5 5 1 5 \) 8 25 car lengths left vehicle ahead driving 55 mph \? finally option totally member supported group perform functions good , good great country unfortunate ones stupid realize , bless souls paltry 10 , join citizens rationally advanced \( c r p \) , non profit , members , society , , , slight hitch , initiation rite full fledged member exclusive club , must proof able fast lane interstate area , keep correct 1 5 car 10 mph know difficult morons around , let anybody pass , next lane , slow lane , breakdown lane , nowhere complete list acceptable interstates times , send 5 way , 90 members highly regarded attorneys auto field completely , absolutely positively business serve best interests testament virtues , give members 90 initial consultation fee feel free drop line earliest convenience remember , speed kills ! course bunch arrogant lawyers know whats best rest us wonderful job judicial system , getting criminals , bow superior intellect mention fees collect us poor get tickets speeding state police officers , soak go court love lawyer jokes ! n't \? c
keys starchild ncsl nist gov \( lawrence b keys \) subject alarm systems worthwhile \? organization national institute standards technology distribution usa lines 50 article 1993apr19 news eng convex com dodson convex com \( dave dodson \) writes worthwhile get alarm system new car \? although , others past continue disagree think worthwhile get alarm features important \? think important protect trunk , engine bay , doors 'd get flashing lights , led 's mounted drivers passenger door relay disable engine operation toss glass break sensor , shock sensor door lock unlock , two remotes panic feature also nice important installation done ! places may cost little , poorly installed alarm \( matter much cost \) major burden features unimportant \? imo , things like engine starters , voice alarms , window sunroof open close , dave dodson dodson convex com convex computer corporation richardson , texas \( 214 \) 497 larry keys csmes ncsl nist gov oo 1990 2 0 16v fahrvergnugen forever ! fact need explain indicates probably would n't understand anyway !
keys starchild ncsl nist gov \( lawrence b keys \) subject dumbest automotive concepts time organization national institute standards technology distribution usa lines 37 article oasys dt navy mil glouie oasys dt navy mil \( george louie \) writes rec autos , nancy hayduke \( nancy feagans \) writes ashtrays cigarette lighters option make option use ashtray store coins small things come handy use cigarette lighter electrical outlet types handy gadgets \( cd players , vacuum cleaners , , etc \) n't want pay extra things n't use , n't hurt use ashtray keep change items converted cigarette lighter volume control knob trunk subwoofer ! george larry keys csmes ncsl nist gov oo 1990 2 0 16v fahrvergnugen forever ! fact need explain indicates probably would n't understand anyway !
rfelix netcom com \( robbie felix \) subject warning \( please read \) keywords brick , rock , danger , gun , violent , teenagers organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 56 article erich triumf ca music erich triumf ca \( fred w bach \) writes article ssd intel com , ssd intel com \( janet \) writes could cease discussion fail see people feel need expound upon issue days days end areas meant type discussion feel need things , please take thought elsewhere thanks exactly point lot hostility , , teenagers follow news northwest usa , heard group 20 year old boys \( barely teens , certainly outlook developed teens \) shot killed innocent little girl riding car seattle area mother \( driving \) horn car boys really upsetting makes stomach turn would parent 's n't heart go poor mother \? teenagers drive cars involved automotive vandalism crime maybe someone newsgroup specific experience dealing violent teenage offenders like kids seems sad people lose perspective case violence teenagers little perspective thousands kind teenagers volunteer local agencies help children , seniors , homeless \? read kids stanford spent spring breaks helping inner city areas \? hundreds volunteers \( teenagers others \) worked clean mess rodney king riots la \? gone local high school play recently \? attended school performances \? seen many kids volunteer pick trash , plant trees , walk \? many kids tried sell stuff benefit organizations belong \? many girl scout cookies bought \? many chocolate bars good causes \? media picks , sensational wonderful teenagers place work hard school , get good grades , go college \( work \) make real contribution society \? humans teenagers time lives ! mother teenager geoffrey really sad see many people buy sensational reporting media kind reflection world today ! reflection happening outer society nothing rf
jyow desire wright edu subject alarm systems worthwhile \? distribution usa organization wright state university lines 27 article 1993apr19 news eng convex com , dave dodson dodson convex com writes worthwhile get alarm system new car \? features important \? features unimportant \? question answered live live place crime apparent , might good idea get one simply deterrent however , professional thief wants vehicle , good gone matter slow thieves would good idea get basic options would 1 \) ignition kill fuel cut 2 \) flashing red led two basic decent alarm system slow criminal , get steering wheel lock sufficient persuade thief find easier target , 's always car jacking life confusing \? hope helped somewhat jason yow human factors psychology program wright state university , dayton , oh e mail jyow desire wright edu
ljbartel naomi b23b ingr com \( les bartel \) subject fast idle 88 ford ranger reply ljbartel naomi b23b ingr com organization intergraph corporation lines 21 morning , 88 ford ranger idling 10 , 000 rpm ok , exaggerated little , idling fast 2 liter engine , throttle would cause idle drop back normal \( n't think linkage stuck \) fix problem \? problem time time , straightened n't tach , sound engine , idling twice fast idling pulled stop light many thanks suggestions les les bartel i'm going live forever intergraph corporation die trying electronics division ljbartel ingr com ljbartel naomi b23b ingr com \( 205 \) 730
jchen wind bellcore com \( jason chen \) subject ad said nissan altima best seller \? reply jchen ctt bellcore com organization bell communications research lines 1 nntp posting host wind bellcore com guess makes altima generic car us
jchen wind bellcore com \( jason chen \) subject haggle deals save \? \? \? nntp posting host wind bellcore com reply jchen ctt bellcore com organization bell communications research distribution usa lines 2 local dealer advertising negotiation necessary ! make wonder
sco com \( nathan \) subject ford probe opinions \? \( centered around gt \) organization santa cruz operation lines 127 jeremy g mereness zonker cmu edu says anyone offer opinions ford probe ala long run , repair records , reliability , mileage , etc \? fixing buy car next months aiming toward something little bigger typical small car little power considering mx 6 , probe , accord , corolla , 240sx probe youngest bunch , thus interest opinions every magazine ratings book places excellent value btw , 240sx rear wheel drive due design 1994 thanks advance ! n't read normally read group , looking valentine radar information \( sigh , maybe faq \) came across posting bought '93 probe gt pep last july \( 9500 miles \) debating sentra se r nx2000 , , mr 2 , stealth , prelude , celica check month 's consumer reports previous probe records criteria fun car abs , airbag , , less 25k thought turbo , checking insurance people ruled tri star cars \( eclipse talon etc \) since n't air bag ditto mustang \( also abs \) se r nx2000 fell pocket rocket category good used car buy mx 6 almost rolled liked n't like prelude dash instrumentation weird mr2 much smaller non passenger space needed , went celica ok underpowered loaded options \( somewhat overpriced \) non turbo form never considered 240sx since n't airbag look virtues 's corolla never entered mind looked mitsubishi dodge stealth since list exhausted , bought probe \) car design different earlier years , 's early see reliability far 's worth , comments dislikes shutting door windows inside rarely makes good wind seal headlights stuck times \( weather \? \) air conditioning broke 4000 miles \( pressure cycling switch \) around rear washer fluid container n't drain completely engine little hope yourselfers \( typical \) parts somewhat expensive normal ford parts underside plastic n't like sharp driveways \( typical \) assembly gripes tape radiator , screw fell dash , seat seams properly hopefully fluke ford gives 1 key car c'mon ford , spend extra pennies ! rear hatch padding corners i'm waiting day bash head corner horn buttons behind air bag spokes center \( personal preference \) tires fling dirt mud onto side car likes engine \( design valves sounds power mileage torque \) definitely 1 handling \( good fwd understeer limits \) transmission \( 5 speed must \) usable instrumentation \( lovely readable analog everywhere \) little torque steer full power \( much better '90 sho drive \) stability 100 mph \( high gearing though \) low \( good visibility front \) heated outside mirrors \( nice fog , never tested freezing weather \) abs air bag \( see \) rear seats fold \( rear seat passengers trunk important \) shake rattle noises going bumps potholes \( still ! \) tires 225 goodyear eagles \( 70 left hoping 30k \) see , i'm primarily interested engine n't big liter car turbo rush , big selling point aluminum 24 value 2 5 liter engine overall car good buy money market segment n't changed much since july \( prelude , honda del sol \? \? \) drive work day relatively smooth roads , noticable thing probe 's suspension n't like potholes test drive one , find road somewhere around town see jarring get tolerable 3 passengers , means bring along 'll find room back 'll find car rides differently \( 's better \) also , 's lot glass around n't expecting temperature inside car gets pretty hot summer back seat passengers \( \) complain lack ventilation may want consider combined heat 've heard exhaust system trouble , mine works fine leather keyless entry system n't available got car ca n't comment \( got car officially announced \) prefer cloth leather anyway would n't want car snow suspension rough inevitable surprise potholes , tires n't meant snow , seats assume 're wearing lots thick clothing rain much better water generally windshield freeway speed , windshield wiper controls easy understandable , barely eagles \( really trying \) also definite lack cup holder small storage places gt map holders speakers door , 're rigid plastic could fit two cassettes cd 's max center console storage bin arm rest 1 cup holder back front seats cloth pouch 's change holders quite let sho probe definitely people mover car box car ! lastly , n't store wet car covers back foam soak water result smell pleasant \( nathan nathan sco com jeremy mereness support ye olde disclaimer zonker cmu edu \( internet \) free represent fast project , cmu software opinions , alone b mechanical engineering , cmu ya gotta love every silver lining 's got touch grey year marks anniversary bill rights mx nathan sco com comment 're coming take away , ha ha ! xiv
mgqlu ntuix ntu ac sg \( max lu \) subject auto air conditioning without freon organization nanyang technological university singapore x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 distribution usa lines 12 working gas solid air con system auto applications kind system , energy exhaust gas anyone interested mail email follow thread , may discussion prospects technology max max g q lu , phd internet mgqlu ntu ac sg division thermal bitnet mgqlu ntuvax bitnet school , nanyang technological university phone \( 65 \) nanyang avenue , singapore fax \( 65 \)
vlasis cybernet cse fau edu \( vlasis theodore \) subject warning \( please read \) organization cybernet bbs , boca raton , florida lines 61 tobias convex com \( allen tobias \) writes article 1993apr15 024246 8076 virginia edu ejv2j virginia edu \( erik vel happened year ago washington dc beltway snot nosed drunken kids decided would really cool throw huge rocks cars overpass four five cars hit several serious injuries , sadly small girl sitting front seat one struck head one larger rocks n't recall made , think comatose month doctors n't holding hope 'd live hell happening great country \? see boyhood pranks peeing bridges , 20 pound rocks \? \? ! society really stooped low \? \? erik velapold society , known , coming apart seams ! basic reason human life devalued point killing someone big deal kid 's see hundreds murderous acts tv , abort children demand , kill sick old surprised kids drop 20 lbs rocks kill people n't care message hear life cheap ! well people unfortunatly , us experiencing human life \( among developed nations \) american raised europe , worst thing happen somebody get car broken , pocket picked slaves russian refugees , thats extremely rare e greece walk neighborhood time night without even worrying germany , walk 4 00 even look behind back , sanitation crews clean streets sparkling whoever know saying dont easy answers nation might get somewhere course postings sould soc culture us reduce crime 'll mean less car insurance rates , thus could spend money cars \( posting rec autos tech \) vlasis theodore software engineer mobile communications sig development
vlasis cybernet cse fau edu \( vlasis theodore \) subject warning \( please read \) organization cybernet bbs , boca raton , florida lines 20 neilson seoul mpr ca \( robert neilson \) writes sorry 0 auto content , low abiding citizens power protect property using deadly force necessary anywhere threat imminent steve heracleous power steve n't \? n't go shoot kids tossing rocks onto cars \? make sure good job though n't miss 'cause like big rocks take kids mean ditto , dont nobody , unless behind , us shoot bastards
europa tomcat raleigh ibm com \( welch bryan \) subject changing oil self distribution usa nntp posting host tomcat raleigh ibm com organization ibm , research triangle park , north carolina lines 20 article 1993apr15 rtfm mlb fl us , gwalker rtfm mlb fl us \( grayson walker \) writes crawl car \? machine got boat pulls oil suction dip stick tube excellent job moving suction tube around , get old oil using drain plug think paid 25 e b marine oil goes steel 3 gal wait cools favorite device use soft drink bottles easy take local oil recycle center sound good , heard tends leave , etc oil pan also , 've told change old 's hot much time settle opinions \? bryan welch amateur radio n0sfg internet europa vnet ibm com \( best \) , bwelch scf nmsu edu everything perish save love music scots gaelic proverb disclaimer 's opinion everything
europa tomcat raleigh ibm com \( welch bryan \) subject warning \( please read \) nntp posting host tomcat raleigh ibm com organization ibm , research triangle park , north carolina keywords brick , truck , danger lines 66 article c5joit e31 bcstec ca boeing com , neil bcstec ca boeing com \( neil williams \) writes larose austin cs utk edu \( brian larose \) writes warning everybody net watch folks standing next road overpasses cause serious harm car \( cliff notes version story follows \) 10pm last night , travelling interstate knoxville , taking exit another interstate wife suddenly screamed something large hit side truck slowed , looking back see vandals standing , drove police station get good look guy saw cock arm something size , never saw lucky truck sits high road would hit window , would killed police looking guy , likelyhood gone good driver \( knock wood \) , night time never saw guy police said thought motive hit car , us stop check damage , jump us , take truck please aware folks good , please stop ! ! ! ! peace brian larose larose cs utk edu 12 , rd knoxville , tn long 're subject several years ago two others riding front toyota pickup heading south interstate 5 north seattle , wa someone threw rock overpass hit windshield accident i'm sure , impossible get overpass quickly see figured kids , reported left couple years ago happend killed guy company mid left behind wife children turned reformatory juviniles blocks away caught 14 year old put cover overpass , else could \? n't think 'll forget story des moines , iowa , year ago , kid dropped rock overpass hit car behind windshield put dent roof , guess lucky hit metal 's frustrating ca n't much bother city government put covers overpasses \? slow speed bit driving overpasses city \? like first better , take time lots people talking city governments another 02 bryan welch amateur radio n0sfg internet europa vnet ibm com \( best \) , bwelch scf nmsu edu everything perish save love music scots gaelic proverb disclaimer 's opinion everything
jimf centerline com \( jim frost \) subject fast organization centerline software , inc lines 36 distribution world nntp posting host 140 239 3 202 boyle cactus org \( craig boyle \) writes quality autobahns something myth road surface n't much different typical tx freeway better terms lighting , safety , signs , etc light highways texas \? funny , everywhere else 've light 'em junctions wo n't even get much road markings vary states localities except say areas markings essentially roads dip asphalt test shocks 60 kill 130 n't get wrong , love would quite severe n't recall us freeway , without road damage warnings , would regard unsafe 130 decent , well damped car suspect limited experience us freeways vary dramatically , particularly states name number interstate highways various parts country 130 would optimistic car i'm sure call quite severe terms road deviations suspect every single bridge junction ct would considered 're hard take 85mph 's interstate 've seen deviations , 's one drive frequently texas pretty much edge case ca n't assume everywhere roads good condition , flat terrain , wide open spaces ai n't jim frost jimf centerline com
csa3 lbl gov \( ad absurdum per \) subject 's rush \( fast \) organization lawrence berkeley laboratory berkeley , ca , usa lines 40 distribution usa nntp posting host 128 3 254 198 news software vax vms vnews 1 41 wrat rites designed speeds upwards 80 forget exact spec military vehicles 's 80 1958 dodge powerwagon 80 1993 ford taurus , still see reference super slab system interstate defense highways whether military much anything goes 80 road another matter diesel trucks , maybe , load permitting military surplus stuff 've driven jeep classic \( kaiser amc , pre independent suspension \) power wagons \( slant 6 crew cab pickup \) n't exactly congenial highway speeds , would n't swear would 80 except semi gotta love standard military tire , , least one used use designed circa ww ii compromise traction sticky goo longevity sharp rocks forth , 's quite ill adapted high speeds civilian ca n't remember look like , imagine mountain bike tire road rib middle , scaled car size oh , yeah , narrow one standard mods surplus jeep install tires wheels reflected made ride handling since day point made wharfie others still stands 're going 80 mil spec power wagon \( jeep tank transporter rubber tired vehicle \) anywhere , 'd suggest american interstate safe speed tends limited car skills , road maintenance , swarms fools around roads designed going like devil naturally , neither employer advocates unsafe unlawful driving joe another personal opinion people 's republic berkeley
stefan dartmouth edu \( stefan \) subject importing volvo \? x posted internews1 newshost dartmouth edu organization dartmouth college , hanover , nh lines 11 well , i'm afraid time come rice burner finally died 'd always promised wife would tour car died pick volvo sweden , drive around import home anyone give 1 \) advice feasibility relative costs 2 \) references might learn 3 \) personal experience \? please email thanks
comm mot com \( curtis eng \) subject selling car car hunter organization motorola , mobile data division seattle , wa distribution na lines 16 anybody got good bad experience selling car one car hunters \? i'm selling 1991 dodge stealth r contacted company called group based illinois said 7 10 buyers area interested car would n't talking talked good 20 minutes asking everything car said could sell problem guaranteed n't sell car 75 days , would get money back \( 389 \) since charged , i'm protected federal law states i'm satisfied , would get refund \( true \) federal expressed paperwork contract stating policy 75 days called bbb illinois file good news definitely legitimate company far , 's week gotten nothing effective types companies \? anybody care share experiences \?
joes telxon mis telxon com \( joe staudt \) subject trading car 's paid pointers please organization telxon corporation distribution usa lines 35 article fibercom com rrg rtp fibercom com \( rhonda gaines \) writes i'm planning purchasing new car trading '90 mazda mx 6 dx 've still got 2 years pay get taken account purchase new car \? dealership pay car add amount pay purchase price new car \? someone please explain n't already know , call bank credit union finance company holds loan present car get current payoff cost trading current car new car , subtract payoff amount trade dealer giving \( turns negative number , need reconsider deal \) subtract difference price new car size loan need new car dealer take care paying loan old car money give pick new car least 's worked 5 years ago ohio thanks rhonda joseph staudt , telxon corp joes telxon com p box usenet like tetris people still akron , oh remember read \( 216 \) 867 3700 j heller
sjp atl hp com \( steve phillips \) subject ford automobile organization hewlett packard atlanta x newsreader tin 1 1 3 pl5 lines 14 ford automobile need information whether ford partially responsible car accidents depletion ozone layer also , additional information greatly appreciated thanks ! ! ! ! ! fault ! ! thank god louis chevrolet innocent ! guy diesel , otto feel guilty ! stephen phillips atlanta response center atlanta , ga home braves !
bh anarres cs berkeley edu \( brian harvey \) subject warning \( please read \) organization university california , berkeley lines 15 nntp posting host anarres cs berkeley edu keywords brick , rock , danger , gun , violent , teenagers rfelix netcom com \( robbie felix \) writes thousands kind teenagers volunteer local agencies help children , seniors , homeless \? hear , hear ! thanks , robbie also n't read much violence teenagers , george bush burying alive tens thousands unarmed iraqi 17 year olds , trying surrender , bulldozers hand , think true , without singling teenagers blame , violence socially acceptable used us 'd like discourage violence plenty work people ages
tszeto sneezy ts stratus com \( tommy szeto \) subject water trunk 89 probe \? \? organization stratus computer , inc lines 15 distribution world nntp posting host sneezy ts stratus com water gradually builds trunk friend 's 89 ford probe every would remove spare scoop water plywood carpet cover trunk would guess usually happens good thunder storm qs 1 \) common problem \? 2 \) drain holes located hatch \? thanks info tom tom szeto ! peanuts ! ones tszeto sneezy ts stratus com bottom include disclaimer h homer simpson
rll mitre org \( roberto l \) subject eagle talon tsi lemon \? nntp posting host mitre org organization research computer facility , mitre corporation , bedford , lines 77 rec autos jay lorenzana uicvm uic edu wrote dear netters looking buy used eagle talon '91 '91 tsi awd would concerned car driven well maintained turbocharged one , would never buy turbocharged vehicle unless knew owner driving maintenance habits question '91 tsi awd mentioned april consumer reports car avoid ! wondering '90 awd models identical \( except abs option \) particular , manual transmission , yes owners problems using synthetic lubricants solved problem cases problem unique , however common models galant gsx , n't see listed cr electrical system , n't know major complaints area , except battery installed factory low current rating brakes par \( models \) first fwd models \( built may 1989 \) recalled brake upgrades fwd awd owners problems warped rotors us insist using manual torque every time lug nuts tightened never problem friend mine '90 tsi awd 2 brake jobs \( pads \) , refer someone gone set pads one day ! depends drive seems owners getting 40 70k set pads one stuck valve , first time hear problem valve train cars , timing belt failures clutch transmission problem , something sticking grinding second gear n't seem bad one beats car friend beats car , unit representative sample car 's reliability suggestion instead listening useless consumer reports , talk several owners \( mailing list may best way reach \) willing suffer reliability speed looks seems pay big buck want three anyway anyone please let know like talon , problems may , repairs worth \( humor impaired \) skip matter much pay , wo n't get three examples reliability looks ferrari reliability h h h h h h \( yeah , right ! \) speed looks opinions stated necessarily employer 's roberto l mitre org rll linus mitre org mitre corporation bedford , 01730 rll linus uucp
tcorkum bnr ca \( trevor corkum \) subject car saftey important \? nntp posting host 47 141 0 88 reply tcorkum bnr ca \( trevor corkum \) organization bell northern research ltd lines 11 recently thumbing 1993 lemon aid new car guide found car would given picture sentences later noting driver passenger virtually guaranteed killed front end collision highly recommended small car \( civic \) worst crash rating small cars listed many cases 'great' vehicles would n't survive accident , safety one important factors buying car \?
joes telxon mis telxon com \( joe staudt \) subject renting alamo organization telxon corporation lines 45 article 1993apr20 ericsson se etxmst sta ericsson se writes hello netters ! i'm visiting us \( i'm sweden \) august probably rent chevy beretta alamo 've quoted 225 week 54 additional days would include free driving distance , local taxes \( baltimore \) also told insurance thats necessary included , doubt , 'cause friend rented car last year turned needed lot insurance 's included base price hand n't rent alamo anyone info \? 225 rip \? , sounds pretty reasonable car city probability 'll needing insurance \? unless accident , wo n't need plan paying car credit card , check see card automatically covers rental cars also , auto insurance may cover rental cars also rental companies offer extra insurance rent , require initial several spots n't want credit cards personal auto insurance provide sort coverage rental agency trying sell never rented alamo , n't know follow practice beretta good rental car \? yes compact 2 door , probably bit dull performance acceleration wise , adequate automatic transmission , fm stereo , air conditioning , possibly power windows door locks joe joseph staudt , telxon corp joes telxon com p box usenet like tetris people still akron , oh remember read \( 216 \) 867 3700 j heller
ak954 yfn ysu edu \( albion h bowers \) subject manual shift bigots organization st elizabeth hospital , youngstown , oh lines 48 reply ak954 yfn ysu edu \( albion h bowers \) nntp posting host yfn ysu edu previous article , \( eric youngblood \) says article engr washington edu , eliot stalfos engr washington edu \( eliot \) writes race car stuff deleted back f1 stuff second , note tranny f1 still shifts driver 's command , schedule driver still controls shifting , transmission , dispute production cars , automatics inherently lossy manuals theory point along whatever mechanical advantages manual automatic easily lost driver n't one thing gives automatic advantage launch fact torque converter vs clutch know sounds strange , torque converter engine output launching functions sort limited continuously variable transmission typically get torque multiplication 2 3 times depending stall speed yet see torque multiplier installed production automobile systems exist , none presently installed production autos aware commonly called viscous drive amplifiers contrasted clutch merely slips \( result tq mult \) convertor allow engine closer torque peak launch car fully engage 's chevy proved many years ago '70 camaro \( ets terminal 1 4 mile times close enough identical 4 speed auto cars \) note also major reason auto car get away fewer gears manual , slip convertor makes fewer ratios \( everyone starts yelling proposed 5 autos soon , note manufacturers using 6 speed \) past however , converter begins coupling tq multiplication effect reduced , cam correct al bowers dod 900 alfa ducati hobie kottke 'blad iaido nasa well goodness sakes n't know girls ca n't play guitar \? mary chapin carpenter
organization university illinois chicago , academic computer center uicvm uic edu subject internal leak carburetor lines 9 hi , friend 's 1983 toyota tercel accelerates without using gas repairman said internal leak air carburetor needs new carburetor \( costs 650 \) likes know possible fix problem without replacing whole carburetor thank
boi hp com \( jack wood \) subject bbb arbitration organization hewlett packard boise , idaho x newsreader tin version 1 1 4 pl6 keywords bbb arbitration lemon lines 46 bbb arbitration experience outcome decidedly mixed battle lost war found car defective , decided offer well market value \( time hearing , average retail truck nada book 21 , 025 , decision 17 , 665 wrote letter council better business pointing fact automobile rapidly , manufacturer incentive deal way manufacturer loose turn around sell vehicle profit consumer awarded attitude chevrolet 's representative hearing tends support point view totally seem take proceeding seriously decided take , even though getting totally screwed price deal continuing repairs selling lemon , case civil suit based idaho lemon law planning send letter elected representatives telling utterly ridiculous idaho lemon law law allows use deduction equal irs mileage chevrolet buying gas paying insurance summary case may 1992 bought new 3 4 ton hd chevrolet pickup may 1992 december 1992 vehicle required repair repair systems required attention included transmission , heater fan , paint , suspension , motor main problem five speed manual transmission could install non defective transmission least four attempts , summary , possible get , going get screwed price , unless paid much first place , car happens model rapidly hpdmd48 boi hp com
storrs eos ncsu edu \( jerry storrs \) subject warning \( please read \) originator storrs che ncsu edu keywords brick , rock , danger , gun , violent , teenagers reply storrs eos ncsu edu \( jerry storrs \) organization north carolina state university , project eos lines 97 article erich triumf ca , music erich triumf ca \( fred w bach \) writes xref alt parents teens 1937 rec autos path ! gatech ! howland reston ans net ! zaphod mps ohio state edu ! primate wisc edu ! caen ! destroyer ! cs ubc ca ! unixg ubc ca ! erich triumf ca ! music music erich triumf ca \( fred w bach \) newsgroups alt parents teens , rec autos subject warning \( please read \) date 19 apr 1993 16 16 pst organization triumf tri university meson facility lines 52 distribution world message id erich triumf ca references c5joit e31 bcstec ca boeing com erich triumf ca bigboote wpi edu ssd intel com nntp posting host erich triumf ca summary violent teenagers victims need help keywords brick , rock , danger , gun , violent , teenagers news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article ssd intel com , ssd intel com \( janet \) writes could cease discussion fail see people feel need expound upon issue days days end areas meant type discussion feel need things , please take thought elsewhere thanks want second request value net group one people focus solving problems go way respectful differences hostility expressed original posting feels like assault thanks , jan exactly point lot hostility , , teenagers look , sent posts alt parents teens \( copy rec autos \) since people group may best advice experience troubled teenagers follow news northwest usa , heard group 20 year old boys \( barely teens , certainly outlook developed teens \) shot killed innocent little girl riding car seattle area mother \( driving \) horn car boys really upsetting makes stomach turn would parent 's n't heart go poor mother \? yes , fred , heart prayers go mother others victims senseless crimes folks group responsibility offer good advice may suspect lots people world read appreciate comments however , feel missed point previous postings \( see top \) statement felt attack towards members group attempting make members group required answer people make statement people experienced problem found workable solution teenagers drive cars involved automotive vandalism crime maybe someone newsgroup specific experience dealing violent teenage offenders like kids time , maybe would good advice hostile people sense potential victims maybe would good advice pay back make situation worse maybe good advice local authorities schools problem prevalent , maybe 're interested \( many people interested , input last sentence seen attack members group people input , give , make feel compelled \( sp \? \) respond wish continue conversation , please send e mail repost attempt bait , make another post \( may make suggestion group members \) matter thanks advance help , get btw , welcome jerry l storrs , system network manager look living dept chemical engineering , ncsu among dead \? , storrs che ncsu edu \( preferred \) risen ! storrs eos ncsu edu luke 24 5 6 lord risen indeed ! ! statement made explicit belief writer employer
dspalme mke ab com \( diane \) subject wife wants convertible organization allen bradley co lines 24 nntp posting host tinman mke ab com x newsreader tin 1 1 pl4 nuet ke pts mot com \( keith nuetzman x3153 p7625 \) writes help ! ! ! wife informed wants convertible next car jp vllyoak resun com \( jeff perry \) writes fyi , last week pbs show motor week gave results thought best cars '93 convertible category , honda civic del sol achieved honor one side see car interior , looks inexpensive dull del sol must vouch interior really looks top looks lot better person television \( saw well needless say smiling bit time \) \) watch darned convertible tan tho diane dspalme mke ab comm
jimd gvg tek com \( jim \) subject vw passat advice sought organization grass valley group , grass valley , ca lines 32 article apr 19 12 13 52 1993 387 remus rutgers edu hong remus rutgers edu \( hong \) writes currently car market would like opinions vw passat glx compare toyota camry \? thought car looked solid , stable european disappointment far n't offer next question , n't vw offering automobiles airbags \? pay extra three thousand bmw 318 even though smaller less powerful passat \? think vw got caught airbag thing 's last year two airbags become significant selling feature vw assumed automatic belts would satisfy govt requirements passive restraint , n't guess consumer would actually make buy decisions based presence airbag vw really hurting right us market check article last week 's autoweek crisis vw coming plant mexico , n't quality facility per normal vw practice , us launch jetta iii delayed , good chunk useful life design spent think come germany , quality availability issue 's nice car nice engine whether vw player us market two year 's time different question 'll leave passat camry flamewar someone else
uxa cso uiuc edu \( tim \) subject auto air conditioning without freon distribution usa organization university illinois urbana lines 9 article 1993apr21 ntuix ntu ac sg mgqlu ntuix ntu ac sg \( max lu \) writes working gas solid air con system auto applications kind system , energy exhaust gas anyone interested mail email follow thread , may discussion prospects technology ok , 'll bite supposed work \? tim
ltd uhura cc rochester edu \( adam edwards \) subject 86 chevy sprint nntp posting host uhura cc rochester edu organization university rochester rochester , new york lines 34 andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu writes 86 chevy sprint c 's odometer turned sensor light started blinking went dealer said maintenance light saying need change oxygen sensor said , changed every 30k , since bought car , n't know thing happened 30k 60k quoted 198 part 50 install part cost 30 outside , mechanic went could fix saying sensor placed deep engine parts suggested wait till malfunctions anything anyone owns chevy sprint , want know got oxygen sensors changed also , face problem fixing without dealer 's help also , results oxygen sensor malfunction help would greatly thanks sold '86 sprint last april 'd driven since previous july , putting 20k miles sensor light used light regularly , starting 5k miles bought brother rebuilt engine used original equipment , suppose sensor could used replacement performance \( hah , could call \) change perhaps emissions increased , much emissions could ca registered 3 cylinder engine produce \? neat car , held engine block easily one hand ! anyone ever driven variant \? curious adam edwards ltd uhura cc rochester edu
rwf2 ns1 cc lehigh edu \( robert william fusi \) subject i'm getting car , need opinions organization lehigh university lines 47 article usenet ins cwru edu , cf947 cleveland freenet edu \( chun h wan \) writes previous article , ip02 ns1 cc lehigh edu \( danny phornprapha \) says 30 , 000 budget i'm looking sports gt car think would best buy \? \( i'm looking specific models \) thanks , danny hey ! programmers ! danny phornprapha please consider ip02 lehigh edu bugs another endangered earth student konsultant species needing protection work \( 215 \) 758 sports car , 'd go rx 7 without sports suspension \( stiff \) little practicality comfort , nissan 300zx turbo good buy good dose luxury , lexus sc300 perfect \( manual transmission course \) however , toyota supra coming soon like 's looks , performance supposed great , almost race car like n't particulary like mitsubishi 's dodge heavy n't nimble handlers sports car motion picture major brooks institute photography , ca santa barbara foreign student kuala lumpur , malaysia mind forerunner states thing 300zx turbo new supra 're 10k budget good , lonely mark twain
kmac cisco com \( karl elvis macrae \) subject sport utility vehical comparisons \? opinions \? organization tattooed love boys lines 36 distribution world nntp posting host glare cisco com read road track car driver \( one mag two \? b \) , wondering people opinions differed mags say i'm looking following three suv 's anyone 's driven three strong opinions \? ford explorer toyota 4runner nissan pathfinder currently i'm leaning toward toyota , 'cause 've big success toyota trucks past , 'cause think 's best looking three thought 'd see anyone strong opinions thanks ! karl karl elvis macrae software release support cisco systems kmac cisco com batman cisco com 415 688 dod 1999 fj1200 shovels rakes implements destruction arlo guthrie
jimf centerline com \( jim frost \) subject car saftey important \? organization centerline software , inc lines 14 nntp posting host 140 239 3 202 tcorkum bnr ca \( trevor corkum \) writes , safety one important factors buying car \? depends priorities lot people put higher priorities gas mileage cost safety , buying unsafe instead volvos personally take middle ground thing really look three point seatbelt 5 mph bumpers figure 30mph collisions brick walls n't common enough spend much extra money protection , lots low speed collisions worry jim frost jimf centerline com
callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu \( james p callison \) subject warning \( please read \) nntp posting host uokmax ecn uoknor edu organization engineering computer network , university oklahoma , norman , ok , usa lines 34 article 1993apr19 magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu \( brian j queiser \) writes anything n't emptied gun asshole texas 's whole country reminds one texas 's ads hear guy speaking french \( like 's letter home \) , french moves background , french accented voice come foreground , talking went walking beach , felt much like home decided take shoes rest clothes ended please send bail \) rec autos note , anyone carry gun keep one car \( bad idea , n't \? \) work bad part town \( regularly go one \) \? loaded question \? \) normally unloaded colt delta glove box loaded magazine handy \( perfectly legal oklahoma \) times i'm travelling inter state , keep unloaded w 44 magnum revolver glove box , speed loader pocket \( legal everywhere , federal law , illinois state police hanged \) 've said , defense insurance pay replace car , one life james james p callison microcomputer coordinator , u oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i'm engineer , play one work forecast calls thunder '89 bird sc 's hell thing , killing man take away 's ever gonna munny , unforgiven
callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu \( james p callison \) subject slick 50 , good \? nntp posting host uokmax ecn uoknor edu organization engineering computer network , university oklahoma , norman , ok , usa lines 16 hmmm listening local radio expert \( , amazingly enough , honest god expert \( tm \) 's amazing knows \) , said , based conversations inventor \( longer , due kind conflict \) , avoids like plague recommend teflon based type oil additives , though james james p callison microcomputer coordinator , u oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i'm engineer , play one work forecast calls thunder '89 bird sc 's hell thing , killing man take away 's ever gonna munny , unforgiven
bell plains nodak edu \( robert bell \) subject info opinions wanted cars article distribution na nntp posting host plains nodak edu organization north dakota higher education computing network lines 45 article 1993apr13 magnus acs ohio state edu jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu \( john f nielsen \) writes article fibercom com rrg rtp fibercom com \( rhonda gaines \) writes i'm market new car currently '90 mazda mx 6 dx served fine however , 'd like get 4 door car since n't thought moving around 2 door car criteria 4 door , c , fm cassette , quick acceleration , cruise control , decent rear seat \( husband 6 \) must also 20k preferably closer 11 15k range \( probably rule accord \) '93 cars caught eye toyota corolla , camry , mazda 626 , pontiac grand , pontiac grand prix , honda accord , \( civic 's roomy enough still comes 4 door model \) , hyundai sonata , maybe even small oldsmobile , although opinions , benchmarks , recommendations , etc welcome really would n't consider grand \( \) since bad frontal n't really outstanding qualities john really must object last statement lot experience '92 grand coupe , firmly state lot outstanding qualities reliable throughout great layout controls components roomy considering exterior size car look sharp inside v6 drive exceptional power compared similar cars driven , 's fun drive , dependable , reasonably priced vehicle please n't knock statement like unless back specific reasons feel way rob bell plains nodak edu john nielsen magnus consultant baldrick , renaissance something happened people , n't \? black adder
lerxst wam umd edu \( 's thing \) subject car ! \? nntp posting host rac3 wam umd edu organization university maryland , college park lines 15 wondering anyone could enlighten car saw day 2 door sports car , looked late 60s early 70s called bricklin doors really small addition , front bumper separate rest body know anyone model name , engine specs , years production , car made , history , whatever info funky looking car , please e mail thanks , il brought neighborhood lerxst
marshatt feserve cc purdue edu \( zauberer \) subject warning \( please read \) organization purdue university please stick automotive topics thank lines 1
csa3 lbl gov \( ad absurdum per \) subject sport utility vehical comparisons \? opinions \? organization lawrence berkeley laboratory berkeley , ca , usa lines 21 distribution na nntp posting host 128 3 254 198 news software vax vms vnews 1 41 read road track car driver \( one mag two \? b \) , wondering people opinions differed mags say depending plan use suv , might recommend also browsing trailer boats one pickup , shotgun , 4wd magazines car rags mostly seem consider recently graded gravel ten redwood chips considering seem used mostly robust station wagons , 's probably bad approach , applications demanding , pick information sources accordingly three vehicles short list \( explorer , 4runner , pathfinder \) , 'd recommend 4runner closely based rather robust pickup explorer comfortably n't know much pathfinder good luck , joe another personal opinion people 's republic berkeley
boyle cactus org \( craig boyle \) subject opel owners \? organization capital area central texas unix society , austin , tx lines 31 article c5sxi4 j9b news cso uiuc edu cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu \( oriolefan uiuc \) writes gibbonsa fraser sfu ca \( darren gibbons \) writes i'm looking information opel cars ask , model \? well , sad truth , i'm entirely sure , 's two seater , roll headlights , hard top , really sporty looking friend one sitting yard really nice condition , body wise , transmission seized , n't run anyone info cars \? engine compartment looks really tight work , fine shape quite interested thanks ! darren gibbons gibbonsa sfu ca would manta , would \? \? \? sold buick dealers mid '70 's price leader \? \? \? \? sounds lot like opel gt 'd guess chassis kadett , rather bigger manta could easily wrong think later kadett 's sold buick opels craig chintan amin llama uiuc edu chintan amin university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig construction hard hat area
tomacj opco enet dec com \( thunderbirds go ! ! ! \) subject mr2 noisy engine organization digital equipment corporation lines 19 nntp posting host opco g 'day people , mr2 owners motor head gurus , know mr2 's engine sounds noisy \? mr2 's engine noisy best times , even nice nose 's one ugly noises oil change every 2 3 months , 2 months engine noise sounds relatively quiet driving idling around 3 month mark , oil change \( 've tracking thoroughly months \) starts get disgusting noise , much driving , idling 's problem \? also n't know 's , noticed little performance drop n't got acceleration used help tips would appreciated ! ! worried
james edward burns arco com subject super mega automobile sighting \( \) ! ! ! ! ! exotics together ! x xxdate tue , 20 apr 93 00 07 01 gmt organization arco long beach inc x useragent nuntius v1 1 lines 14 article phantom gatech edu graham e thomas , grahamt phantom gatech edu writes alright , beat automobile sighting top one friday afternoon 4 16 93 look window long beach ca see new ferrari looks like mix \( sp \? \) batman car seems ferrari annual dinner place downstairs sweet car j b
marshatt feserve cc purdue edu \( zauberer \) subject warning \( please read \) organization purdue university distribution usa lines 5 sorry last post , server neglected send message please keep group automotive topics thank
cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu \( oriolefan uiuc \) subject opel owners \? organization university illinois urbana lines 30 boyle cactus org \( craig boyle \) writes article c5sxi4 j9b news cso uiuc edu cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu \( oriolefan uiuc \) writes gibbonsa fraser sfu ca \( darren gibbons \) writes i'm looking information opel cars ask , model \? well , sad truth , i'm entirely sure , 's two seater , roll headlights , hard top , really sporty looking friend one sitting yard really nice condition , body wise , transmission seized , n't run anyone info cars \? engine compartment looks really tight work , fine shape quite interested thanks ! darren gibbons gibbonsa sfu ca would manta , would \? \? \? sold buick dealers mid '70 's price leader \? \? \? \? sounds lot like opel gt 'd guess chassis kadett , rather bigger manta could easily wrong think later kadett 's sold buick opels craig think manta european name gt i'm pretty sure kadett 's sold pontiac lemans think gt early '70s mid '70s manta chintan amin university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig construction hard hat area
maynard convex com \( mark maynard \) subject opel owners \? nntp posting host trojan convex com organization convex computer corporation , richardson , tx , usa distribution rec autos x disclaimer message written user convex computer corp opinions expressed user necessarily convex lines 22 article c5sxi4 j9b news cso uiuc edu cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu \( oriolefan uiuc \) writes gibbonsa fraser sfu ca \( darren gibbons \) writes i'm looking information opel cars ask , model \? well , sad truth , i'm entirely sure , 's two seater , roll headlights , hard top , really sporty looking gibbonsa sfu ca would manta , would \? \? \? sold buick dealers mid '70 's price leader \? \? \? \? chintan amin sounds like opel gt neat cars , fun drive sold buick 196 \? 1973 \( remember correctly \) believe '72 engine mods made parts interchangeable older models parts thus much harder come later models parts general difficult find one time jc whitney carried stuff including brand new \( \) long block either gt ghia \( hmm spelling looks hosed \) next project mark
stecz pencom com \( john \) subject 6700 hail damage record \? reply stecz pencom com distribution usa organization pencom software lines 22 article 1993apr19 cactus org boyle cactus org \( craig boyle \) writes 90 integra hit hard 3 25 hailstorm austin , tx insurance company cut check 6600 \( 100 deductible \) last week record \? anybody else settlements hailstorm yet \? craig rumor guy dell computer miata totalled , would 10k john stecz pencom com constitution grants right life , liberty , pursuit happiness attempt guarantee everyone happy
uhura cc rochester edu \( mehta \) subject new '94 talon \? \? \? \? \? keywords regal fiberglass parts \? \? nntp posting host uhura cc rochester edu organization university rochester \( rochester , ny \) lines 12 article thing new '94 eagle talon \? heard new '94 released \? true differences '93 '94 \? opinions \? would appreciate replies would also prefer e mail , thanks ! mehta university rochester sucks ! uhura cc rochester edu believe captain crunch , fry
damelio progress com \( stephen d'amelio \) subject changing oil self nntp posting host organization progress software corp lines 34 megatest com \( ha nguyen \) writes article 1993apr14 progress com damelio progress com \( stephen d'amelio \) writes bmoss grinch sim es com \( brent woody moss \) writes could take screw driver hammer start punching holes various locations black slippery stuff starts pouring would know oil drain plug nearby \( within foot two anyway \) close holes toilet paper oil though refill engine oil ! wow , wonder ca n't get engine last first oil change n't forget punch holes radiator , spray nice refreshing water engine keep nice cool \) steve gee , really make confused radiator \? located \? look like \? release radiation \( since sounds like tion tor \) punch holes \? course releases radiation ! thats car goes faster punch holes radiation gets engine gives pep \( scientific term \) get horsepower torque ! n't know hp torque , read mile long threads subject , wrong horsepower much power horse make pulling subaru , torque name invented craftsman wrench steve
gov ca \( chris williams \) subject warning \( please read \) organization government ontario lines 71 cybernet cse fau edu vlasis cybernet cse fau edu \( vlasis theodore \) writes tobias convex com \( allen tobias \) writes article 1993apr15 024246 8076 virginia edu ejv2j virginia edu \( erik vel happened year ago washington dc beltway snot nosed drunken kids decided would really cool throw huge rocks cars overpass four five cars hit several serious injuries , sadly small girl sitting front seat one struck head one larger rocks n't recall made , think comatose month doctors n't holding hope 'd live hell happening great country \? see boyhood pranks peeing bridges , 20 pound rocks \? \? ! society really stooped low \? \? erik velapold society , known , coming apart seams ! basic reason human life devalued point killing someone big deal kid 's see hundreds murderous acts tv , abort children demand , kill sick old surprised kids drop 20 lbs rocks kill people n't care message hear life cheap ! well people unfortunatly , us experiencing human life \( among developed nations \) american raised europe , worst thing happen somebody get car broken , pocket picked slaves russian refugees , thats extremely rare e greece walk neighborhood time night without even worrying germany , walk 4 00 even look behind back , sanitation crews clean streets sparkling whoever know saying dont easy answers nation might get somewhere course postings sould soc culture us reduce crime 'll mean less car insurance rates , thus could spend money cars \( posting rec autos tech \) vlasis theodore software engineer mobile communications sig development remember happening 75 michigan ohio several years back group guys old would rear end car , usually state canadians stop smack bb bat least n't kill sake car think cops put calmed vlasis , safe walking germany refugee \?
bb1t monsanto com subject monthly posting buick grand national regal type mailing list lines 16 organization monsanto company , st louis , mo monthly posting regarding buick grand national regal type mailing list list owners parties interested 82 87 buick grand nationals , regal types , , turbocharged discussions include technical information parts sources particular emphasis given performance enhancements racing join , ask , mailing list , contact request monsanto com scott keller 1 314 537 agricultural group monsanto company bb1t monsanto com packet mo usa na keeper buick grand national regal type mailing list
stsci edu \( michael \) subject ignition kill organization space telescope science institute x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 8 wanted thank netters either posted response sent e mail regarding ignition kill question know simple procedure , looks like 'll paying local pep boys visit weekend mik
nosubdomain nodomain \( james \) subject sho clutch question \( grinding noise \? \) nntp posting host organization bnr , inc lines 15 article unisql uucp , wrat unisql uucp \( wharfie \) writes article news rich bnr ca nosubdomain nodomain \( james \) writes 's clutch 're hearing , gearbox early shos lot referred noise generally one first shos built , mine n't make noise geez wharfie , difficult \? mine built december '88 , qualifies pretty dang early , certainly away jim
stsci edu \( michael \) subject organization space telescope science institute x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 7 answer question sort much less robust version army vehicle early '70 's \( thereabouts \) called thing , , course , convertible havent seen many around good luck mik
bob1 cos com \( bob blackshaw \) subject dumbest automotive concepts time organization corporation open systems distribution na lines 21 1993apr15 slcs slb com dcd se houston geoquest slb com \( dan day \) writes article 1rm constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu \( james p callison \) writes article 1993apr13 slcs slb com dcd se houston geoquest slb com \( dan day \) writes really ugly fake wheel compartments stuck onto trunk side \( sides ! \) tacky luxury cars \? 'em n't fake \( 're talking continental kit , named lincoln continental , first car sport one \) personally would love '56 bird continental kit \( supercharged v 8 \) one beautiful cars ever built , imho 'd go lincoln continental could find one sad part ford designed , look abortion named ai n't justice okay , 'll admit looks nice bird \( previous owner 1967 1968 thunderbirds , i'm biased anyway \)
bob1 cos com \( bob blackshaw \) subject dumbest automotive concepts time organization corporation open systems distribution na lines 37 drutx att com klf druwa att com \( franklinkl \) writes article 1rm constellation ecn uoknor edu , callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu \( james p callison \) writes article 1993apr13 slcs slb com dcd se houston geoquest slb com \( dan day \) writes article ctron news ctron com smith ctron com writes 's big aftermarket business almost cars come factory , fake convertible job definitely came aftermarket place amazes much people willing pay bad taste really ugly fake wheel compartments stuck onto trunk side \( sides ! \) tacky luxury cars \? 'em n't fake \( 're talking continental kit , named lincoln continental , first car sport one \) personally would love '56 bird continental kit \( supercharged v 8 \) one beautiful cars ever built , imho james continental may first modern era auto mount spare rear car hardly first car sport one various mounting techniques rear mounting spare quite common early automobiles , us foreign right thirties buick packard two spares mounted wells front fenders course back front fenders long enough provide room couple well , memory fades ken franklin say 's heaven people wait ama say 's better say ai n't gwrra 'd rather laugh sinners cry saints dod 0126 sinners lots fun , y'know good die young
bob1 cos com \( bob blackshaw \) subject dumbest automotive concepts time organization corporation open systems distribution world lines 56 constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu \( james p callison \) writes article 1993apr13 slcs slb com dcd se houston geoquest slb com \( dan day \) writes article acs ucalgary ca parr acs ucalgary ca \( charles parr \) writes long time motorcyclist , never understood auto builders put delicate controls , must used skill finesse , like clutches brakes , floor hand control \? 's much much easier early days , neither functions power assist , legs enough strength activate since , 's traditional people would hard time getting used anything else well , , exactly , would put hand clutch brake \? motorcycle , 's easy handlebars limited range turning steering wheels , hand , turn around around around fine electrical relays \( like cruise control airbag \) many want lose clutch brake due short circuit \? shades ! pushbuttons steering wheel hub controlled auto tranny disconcerting shift reverse turning corner wires shorted workarounds , 's really reason use hand power car 's clutch brakes , lightening point finesse controls suitable hand use would mechanical complexity substantially \( look power brakes non power brakes example \) saw experimental car joystick instead steering wheel 's useless , imho another automotive oddity separate keys trunks , doors , ignitions earth would want \? know n't want separate trunk key security reasons gives totally separate , container door ignition , key 's ok , guess james james p callison microcomputer coordinator , u oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i'm engineer , play one work forecast calls thunder '89 bird sc 's hell thing , killing man take away 's ever gonna munny , unforgiven
aol com \( steve wall \) subject warning \( please read \) organization anonymous lines 22 nntp posting host pica army mil article 1993apr15 convex com , tobias convex com \( allen tobias \) wrote society , known , coming apart seams ! basic reason human life devalued point killing someone big deal kid 's see hundreds murderous acts tv , abort children demand , kill sick old surprised kids drop 20 lbs rocks kill people n't care message hear life cheap ! think getting little highway robbers part life since middle ages least 's human nature look history rose colored glasses , random acts violence part heritage overall , life better ever 's random individual acts violence never historically significant , record keeping past never good enough retain steve wall
zeus tamu edu \( , thomas j \) subject 86 chevy sprint organization texas university , academic computing services lines 51 distribution world nntp posting host zeus tamu edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article andrew cmu edu , andrew cmu edu writes 86 chevy sprint c 's odometer turned sensor light started blinking went dealer said maintenance light saying need change oxygen sensor said , changed every 30k , since bought car , n't know thing happened 30k 60k quoted 198 part 50 install part cost 30 outside , mechanic went could fix saying sensor placed deep engine parts suggested wait till malfunctions anything anyone owns chevy sprint , want know got oxygen sensors changed also , face problem fixing without dealer 's help also , results oxygen sensor malfunction help would greatly thanks owned sprint beginning sensor light comes every 30k let know 's time check light goes , take tell 's time work 4 hou pay 5 parts 100 labor \( ahh get labor \) currently sprint times took service , never say payment sheet anything replacement oxygen sensor heck oxygen sensor \? far know , never thing replaced car car like kitten , n't c \( mother nature \) \) might something , still never heard oxygen sensor major service job car \( besides getting tires replaced want call service job \) getting rotor , distributor gasket replaced done within past 2 months 30k good tune , let replace ever need , pay bill \( 125 \) go home n't worry car another 30k oh , remembered something little sensor light bothers , fuse box right turn signal lever dash , right side flip switch light go little light wo n't annoy ca n't find , look car manuel hope helped little good luck oxygen sensor \? thomas e mail address give army west point , zeus tamu edu graduates 'll win battle give handful texas , creator mot power ! 'll win war gen george patton
nimbus com \( jim \) subject electronic odometers \( used bmw question \? \? \? \) reply nimbus com \( jim \) organization nimbus technology , santa clara , ca usa lines 32 article news duke edu klg mc duke edu \( kim greer \) writes wondering anyone shed light electronic odometers remember total elapsed mileage \? kind memory stable reliable enough , non volatile enough independent enough \( outside battery power \) last say , 10 years , life vehicle \? i'm amazed anything like could expected work length time \( especially light gizmos work good work 2 months without breaking somehow \) \( clock \) 512 bytes lithium battery backup battery life 10 years operation installed car could left powered continuously draw much current battery would used auto battery dead removed side question legal ramifications selling used car replaced odometer starts 0 miles , say 100 200 300k actual miles looks like fraud would fairly easy price new odometer , say however many miles want tell buyer california line transfer ownership form states odometer mileage correct incorrect required fill know \( \) correct mileage lie form caught prosecuted buyer sue value mileage differential faster horses younger women older whiskey money !
rjwade rainbow ecn purdue edu \( robert j wade \) subject aftermarket c units organization purdue university engineering computer network distribution usa lines 29 les bartel 's comments sorry ca n't help question , comment make concerning aftermarket c units frost king frost temp \( forget \) aftermarket unit cavalier , quite unhappy fan noisy , n't put much air never aftermarket c installed vehicles ca n't trust quality performance experience les let add 02 c installed ford garage work well c installed factory pickups identical mine talked people result n't know probable ford \? \? ernie smith agree , never dealer add anything car want c make sure factory installed \( honda 's maybe excluded , many ca n't bought c installed factory , think , maybe , actually use needed parts true factory install put one bigger radiator etc designed properly 1st place \) , anyway , point dealer installed c wo n't anywhere near good factory service bums mess car installing scratches , screwdriver holes seats parts reinstalled correctly screws etc know guy service manager gm dealer 18 years said never dealer add anything car except , maybe ,
mizar usc edu \( joni \) subject master cylinder organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 10 distribution world nntp posting host mizar usc edu thanks everyone responded honda accord break question seem master cylinder bad mechanic double check sure n't something simpler cheaper first , responses sounds like likely master cylinder thanks everyone ! ! joni
davec ece concordia ca \( dave chu \) subject wanted opinions 75 mg nntp posting host dreams ece concordia ca organization ece concordia university lines 14 wondering anyone net land opinions general know reliable cars around summer approaching convertibles `8 \) i'm interested 75 mg opinions would appreciated thanks dave dave kai chui chu dept elec comp eng concordia university voice \( 514 \) 848 3115 de w fax \( 514 \) 848 montreal , quebec , canada email davec ece concordia ca
athena mit edu \( timothy j gardner \) subject another taurus sho question organization massachusetts institute technology lines 13 nntp posting host m2 225 2 mit edu article 1993apr14 reed edu rseymour reed edu writes taurus sho \( get straight , h super high output , sho show \) yamaha 3 0l dohc \( 24 valves \) sho v 6 spoken technical staff ford many times , assure internally ford car always called taurus show show long sound still refer h , however , sounds better assume many fans owners prefer using ford tim gardner
reid ucs indiana edu \( frank reid \) subject \? \? ! ! lines 23 nntp posting host reid ucs indiana edu organization indiana university article mentor cc purdue edu thwang mentor cc purdue edu \( tommy hwang \) writes sorry mis spelling , forgot spell series exams hand reference still possible get cute wwii vw jeep wanna 's \? replica would great think '93 vw thing still manufactured mexico possibly south america good luck importing one probably n't meet us safety pollution requirements mechanics specialize vw might helpful finding thing unless wwii grabbed wwii german equivalent jeep , 4 wheel drive one display patton museum fort knox , kentucky , also rare \( sp \? \) version , full scale highly recommended ! frank reid ucs indiana edu
markm bigfoot sps mot com \( mark monninger \) subject auto air conditioning without freon nntp posting host 223 250 10 7 reply rapw20 email sps mot com organization sps distribution usa lines 20 article 1993apr15 research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com \( chris behanna \) writes several chemists already come several substitutes r12 n't hear mobile air conditioning society \( macs \) , , people stand rake 300 1000 per retrofit per automobile , mounted organized campaign squash r12 substitutes existence ban altogether \( shaky technical grounds , best , outright lies worst \) , i'm saying 're wrong know r 12 substitutes exist , sounds lot like carbs oil companies keep us getting mark
bronze ucs indiana edu \( thomas morris spencer \) subject honda groups \? nntp posting host bronze ucs indiana edu organization indiana university distribution na lines 6 honda groups \? especially ones deal \? tom spencer
jwg sedv1 acd4 acd com \( jwg \) subject dumbest automotive concepts time reply unix amherst edu 's message wed , 14 apr 1993 20 35 23 gmt organization u jwg organization lines 16 article 57 unix amherst edu , unix amherst edu \( barak h \) gives forth started reading thread today , forgive already mentioned deal renault 's putting horn left hand turn signal stalk \? button end , washer button would wiper washer stalk could figure wiring steering wheel , \? '83 alliance long time comfortable sluggish car got used horn stalk , couple months worth getting used bought next car , chevy , took ever get used horn steering wheel ! jim grey jwg acd4 acd com !
aas7 po cwru edu \( andrew spencer \) subject 's rush \( fast \) organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 38 reply aas7 po cwru edu \( andrew spencer \) nntp posting host slc5 ins cwru edu previous article , crh regent e technik tu muenchen dbp de \( christian huebner \) says brad buck viewlogic com \( bradford kellogg \) writes think 's talking different form rush evidently , 's fun terrified hey , want kind rush , try may get 80 , makes 130 car feel like stroll park good driver terrified 130mph \? thing fear going 130 drivers , switch left lane without using either rear view mirror flashers 130 150 ai n't rush , 's fun get want go much faster one point quite right terrified 130 better drive fast , 'll hazard others btw , flame , read e mail address know i'm talking , live germany bk chris crh regent e technik tu muenchen de flame , point 'd scared 130 , feel car could n't handle , exactly said drivers stupid like ones 130 also , pull right behind maybe 1 2 car lengths oh yeah , real smart scares cities 50 ca n't see enough car make recognizable , following close see reading newspaper sigh america 55 65 speed limits drivers dumb realise reading paper done breakfast , work , car thoughts drew
markm bigfoot sps mot com \( mark monninger \) subject car buying story , christ , another dealer service scam nntp posting host 223 250 10 7 reply rapw20 email sps mot com organization sps distribution usa lines 28 article 1993apr15 slcs slb com dcd se houston geoquest slb com \( dan day \) writes \( relates experience similar mine \) comes part wish could videotaped go front door , sales manager shouts across entire showroom , customers , go ahead ! deserve buy nissan ! friend bought sentra kind behavior shocked crying loud , turkeys think talk customers way still stay business \? , n't expect sales people bow , scrape , grovel presence sure n't expect abused either surprised way sales people talked sessions overheard neighboring sales evidently , success rate high enough continue business way must lot people easy intimidate hand , i'm sure 'one price , approach saturn starting use guess fixed price fair 's ok maybe best approach homework go find invoice prices car , add reasonable profit dealer \( 200 300 \? \? \) , offer price stick get abusive , leave , n't let try screw deal agreed mark
bpita ctp com \( bob pitas \) subject braindead drivers n't look ahead keywords bad drivers nntp posting host earth ctp com organization cambridge technology partners distribution usa lines 56 article 1993apr14 cbnewsd cb att com hhm cbnewsd cb att com \( herschel h mayo \) writes well , guess know sure meant , n't know drive , around freeways often clogged solid large packs semis , trucks , cars descriptions close one rolling highway , desire add vehicle rolling accident looking place happen way pass would passing , however ca n't posted , takes blown tire , moron brakes turn pack cloud shredded metal , flying glass , burning vehicles want maintain enough free space mess least minimal chance avoid mass crash means maintaining clear space however , end morons dying pass add car bodycount would n't bother much except letting enough morons pass glue pack ahead , interval filled trying back work road behind filled , trapping car right ever increasing pack , slight possibility lane open ahead , 'd glad move , usually way hell anybody going anywhere , block would passers good , well even though often stupid realize comment n't like people decide 's good think 're going decide anything , 'd better carrying badge gun made capable determining way hell anybody going anywhere \? find necessary add problem instead minding business \? someone minding business , give room want , 'll try make things easy , even letting front ask politely \( directional \) hand , someone like decides want block general asshole , bet ass 'll make life miserable possible , long n't affect anyone else 's minding business phrase describe someone like self appointed traffic police mind business stay right lane belong rule philosophy , n't feel particularly sorry somebody gets offed stupidity , worry idiot position cash chips , h h mayo '85 mustang gt bob pitas 14 13 99 8 bpita ctp com ned , , nh \( cambridge , \) geddy lee \( \) disclaimer opinions mine , obviously , since end sig !
sorlin magnus acs ohio state edu \( steven j orlin \) subject changing oil self nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university distribution usa lines 18 article 1993apr15 rtfm mlb fl us gwalker rtfm mlb fl us \( grays walker \) writes crawl car \? machine got boat pulls oil suction dip stick tube excellent job moving suction tube around , get old oil using drain plug think paid 25 e b marine oil goes steel 3 gal wait cools favorite device use soft drink bottles easy take local oil recycle center yeah suppose could n't get broken knuckles , rust eyes , oil bath , burns exhaust mean come ! steve
bobml mxmsd msd measurex com \( bob \) subject changing oil self reply bobml msd measurex com organization measurex msd distribution mxmsd lines 26 article 1993apr15 news cs brandeis edu , andyh chaos cs brandeis edu \( andrew j huang \) writes article 1993apr15 magnus acs ohio state edu sorlin magnus acs ohio state edu \( steven j orlin \) writes take electrodes amp ohm volt meter whatever connect one earlobe , insert fingers spark plug boots cheating guys ! hands must used ! couple questions technique first , firing order use \? start pointer finger pinky \? left hand right \? secondly , two cylinders unaccounted suggestions \? andy two big toes \? 're , bother removing drain plug could remove dipstick instead suck mouth spit \? domain bobml msd measurex com bob , senior software engineer uucp ! uunet ! mxmsd ! bobml measurex management systems division voice \( 513 \) 825 1280 kemper meadow drive fax \( 513 \) 825 cincinnati , ohio , usa
bernoulli wpi edu \( jacques w \) subject arctic wheels auto show organization worcester polytechnic institute lines 5 nntp posting host bernoulli wpi edu want two things world , 58 plymouth small opec nation fuel would good thing car go home sulk jacques manufacturing engineering
mliggett silver ucs indiana edu \( matthew liggett \) subject opel owners \? nntp posting host silver ucs indiana edu organization indiana university lines 62 c5t3b2 dg news cso uiuc edu cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu \( oriolefan uiuc \) writes boyle cactus org \( craig boyle \) writes article c5sxi4 j9b news cso uiuc edu cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu \( oriolefan uiuc \) writes gibbonsa fraser sfu ca \( darren gibbons \) writes i'm looking information opel cars ask , model \? well , sad truth , i'm entirely sure , 's two seater , roll headlights , hard top , really sporty looking friend one sitting yard really nice condition , body wise , transmission seized , n't run anyone info cars \? engine compartment looks really tight work , fine shape quite interested thanks ! darren gibbons gibbonsa sfu ca would manta , would \? \? \? sold buick dealers mid '70 's price leader \? \? \? \? sounds lot like opel gt 'd guess chassis kadett , rather bigger manta could easily wrong think later kadett 's sold buick opels craig think manta european name gt i'm pretty sure kadett 's sold pontiac lemans think gt early '70s mid '70s manta chintan amin university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig construction hard hat area bzzt manta two door sedan us 1900 engine sometimes referred opel 1900 manta 's also hot fun cars mliggett silver ucs indiana edu \( mliggett iugold bitnet 'junk' collector , toys r us kid , antiauthoritarian , fan frogs , iguanas , herps
watarts uwaterloo ca \( \) subject aftermarket exhausts bmw organization university waterloo lines 14 process looking half decent aftermarket sport exhaust 1981 bmw far , found pacesetter exhaust 219 exhaust 190 \( canadian funds \) wondering anyone could tell either exhausts possible exhausts may interested main priorities decent horse power increase \( 5 30 \) nice low note go along added power also thinking looking remus exhausts anyone got anything say \? mainly looking muffler anyone find good deal whole kit would willing go also would like know much would cost states please mail back information mike
dduff col hp com \( dave duff \) subject waxing new car organization hp colorado springs division lines 5 nntp posting host fajita19 cs itc hp com 41 chrysler painted told refrain waxing leave sun ! ! supposedly let 's escape paint month \( smell 15 feet away hot day \) lets slight surface flow , paint remains little soft
erasure sl cc emory edu \( jeremy \) subject 300 series , vw passat lines 31 nntp posting host erasure sl cc emory edu boss interested new 300 series mercedes benz wagon anyone testimonial evidence strong opinions car \( line \) \? particularly , would like hear power \( manual \) reliability , feel , unusually good bad features line currently drives vw passat , plagued electrical problems dealer claims nothing wrong , even though doors habit locking selves driving road automatic shoulder restraints also like move back forth move along new , larger engine quite dissatisfied lack power mb wagon would power peculiar problems passat 's electrical system also considering saab 9000 \( add letters \) comparisons 9000 line mercedes would helpful price impediment jeremy j churchill claimed traditions erasure sl cc emory edu navy rum , , sodomy opinions , probably got someone else
organization ryerson polytechnical institute distribution na ryevm ryerson ca subject van step van accessory help lines 13 hello netters , would like find information device used vans trucks device step hooks onto tire folds storage 've seen device tnn 's shady tree mechanic would like know good product would also like price address purchase product thanks , george chan email ryevm ryerson ca
aep world std com \( andrew e page \) subject importing volvo \? organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 9 article business week 4 weeks ago subject fact volvo 850 one cars laid example andrew e page \( warrior poet \) decision effort archer arrow mac consultant difference macintosh dsp technology want
auspex com \( tom \) subject sho sc reply auspex com \( tom \) organization auspex systems , inc engineering lines 20 nntp posting host 144 48 14 46 article ork armory centerline com , jimf centerline com \( jim frost \) writes ok , 'll give reasons 1 neither car designed turn speeds 2 neither car designed stop quickly speeds 3 safety mechanisms designed impacts speeds 4 uncontrolled environment leads unpredictable circumstances might need turn stop notice , chance sho access one , would idea designed handles \? wondering tom auspex com compuserve com sho
eliot lanmola engr washington edu \( eliot \) subject mr2 noisy engine organization clearer blir lines 20 nntp posting host lanmola engr washington edu article usenet pa dec com tomacj opco enet dec com \( thunderbirds go ! ! ! \) writes mr2 owners motor head gurus , know mr2 's engine sounds noisy \? mr2 's engine noisy best times , even nice nose 's one ugly noises assuming non turbo mr2 , characteristic large inline 4 n't balance shafts guess toyota n't care little details like brag mid engine configuration flashy styling , automatically cross car consideration \( recommendation \) inline 4 larger 2 liters balance shafts good rule thumb keep mind ever want halfway decent engine noise really bugs , nothing else except sell get v6 eliot
tomm hank ca boeing com \( tom mackey \) subject warning \( please read \) keywords brick , truck , danger organization bogart graphics development lines 27 article c5joit e31 bcstec ca boeing com neil bcstec ca boeing com \( neil williams \) writes long 're subject several years ago two others riding front toyota pickup heading south interstate 5 north seattle , wa someone threw rock overpass hit windshield accident i'm sure , impossible get overpass quickly see figured kids , reported left couple years ago happend killed guy company mid left behind wife children turned reformatory juviniles blocks away caught 14 year old put cover overpass , else could \? execute grounds reformatory , required rest inmates , soon possible incident quick sure trial quite serious cause effect nothing else ever make dent n't think 'll forget story neil williams , boeing computer services , bellevue wa neither tom mackey \( 206 \) 865 tomm voodoo ca boeing com boeing computer services uunet ! bcstec ! voodoo ! tomm 7k 20 , p box 24346 , seattle , wa 98124 0346
tomm hank ca boeing com \( tom mackey \) subject warning \( please read \) organization bogart graphics development lines 33 article neilson seoul mpr ca neilson seoul mpr ca \( robert neilson \) writes sorry 0 auto content , low abiding citizens power protect property using deadly force necessary anywhere threat imminent steve heracleous power steve n't \? n't go shoot kids tossing rocks onto cars \? make sure good job though n't miss 'cause like big rocks take kids mean absolutely correct streak runs much deeper stronger anything ever experienced even height 60 's racial struggles absolutely convinced kids today concept right wrong , human intelligence turning greatest ever walked earth prevail unless rest humanity decides best interest stand feral humans , individuals start taking responsibility protection state individuals turn authorities police protection , police government soon composed feral humans originally sought protection gee , guess touched hot button 'd better go cool somewhere tom mackey \( 206 \) 865 tomm voodoo ca boeing com boeing computer services uunet ! bcstec ! voodoo ! tomm 7k 20 , p box 24346 , seattle , wa 98124 0346
hpfcso fc hp com \( barry fowler \) subject impala ss going production ! organization hp colorado computer mfg operation lines 1 mean 're gonna bring back bel air \?
matmcinn nuscc nus sg \( matthew macintyre national university senegal \) subject warning \( please read \) organization national university singapore x newsreader tin 1 1 pl4 lines 12 mchaffee dcl nxt07 \( michael chaffee \) writes significantly less value many automobiles argue animals stealing cars everything else \( mention committing completely senseless acts violence , rape \) cannot valued terms money human beings , submit human beings jim callison , think , right track absolutely scratch car bothers death number scum feel way wo n't admit people going realise mere fact piece flesh moves approximate shape human mean rights \?
nataraja rtsg mot com \( kumaravel natarajan \) subject dirty diesels \? nntp posting host opal12 organization motorola inc , cellular infrastructure group distribution na lines 17 heard diesels considered cleaner burning gas engines emit less carbon monoxide , hydrocarbons , oxides nitrogen \( co , hc , nox \) put lot particulate matter heard something legislation discussed clean diesel emissions anything works install scrubbers diesels \? feasibility installing trucks cars \? would different catylitic converter \? 'd assume easier , since 're removing particulate matter instead converting gasses let 's hear people 's opinions vel natarajan nataraja rtsg mot com motorola cellular , arlington hts il
jp vllyoak resun com \( jeff perry \) subject wife wants convertible organization private site san marcos , california lines 35 aas7 po cwru edu \( andrew spencer \) writes previous article , dspalme mke ab com \( diane \) says nuet ke pts mot com \( keith nuetzman x3153 p7625 \) writes help ! ! ! wife informed wants convertible next car jp vllyoak resun com \( jeff perry \) writes fyi , last week pbs show motor week gave results thought best cars '93 convertible category , honda civic del sol achieved honor del sol must vouch interior really looks wh top looks lot better person television \( well needless say smiling bit time \) \) watch darned convertible tan tho simply must inquire , people honestly consider car convertible \? porsche patent targa name \? mean , convertible means top , del sol certainly center lifts would term targa \( unless porsches gonna sue \) know rear window rolls , still hardly consider car convertible yes , however , top rear window car like convertible coupe think convertible integrated roll bar like addition jp
rseymour reed edu \( robert seymour \) subject car ! \? article reed 1993apr21 reply rseymour reed edu organization reed college , portland , lines 26 article 1993apr20 wam umd edu lerxst wam umd edu \( 's thing \) writes wondering anyone could enlighten car saw day 2 door sports car , looked late 60s early 70s called bricklin doors really small addition , front bumper separate rest body know anyone model name , engine specs , years production , car made , history , whatever info funky looking car , please e mail manufactured 70s engines ford rather odd looking front bumper n't lot around , \( motor news \) ten listed basically , performance ford new styling slapped top brought neighborhood lerxst rush fan \? robert seymour rseymour reed edu physics philosophy , reed college \( nextmail accepted \) artificial life project reed college reed solar energy project \( \) portland ,
ravi merlin dev cdx mot com \( ravi \) subject 13 , 500 mazda 626 dx \( air , fm \) good deal \? nntp posting host elvis dev cdx mot com reply ravi merlin dev cdx mot com \( ravi \) organization motorola codex lines 12 hi netters want know \( w tax \) good deal 1993 mazda 626 dx performance review far mazda 626 good buy \? please reply n't read group often thanks advance ravi ravi kiran purpose education merely , ravi merlin dev cdx mot com assimilation facts blow motorola codex , boston money ravi
boyle cactus org \( craig boyle \) subject opel owners \? organization capital area central texas unix society , austin , tx lines 45 article c5t3b2 dg news cso uiuc edu cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu \( oriolefan uiuc \) writes boyle cactus org \( craig boyle \) writes article c5sxi4 j9b news cso uiuc edu cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu \( oriolefan uiuc \) writes gibbonsa fraser sfu ca \( darren gibbons \) writes i'm looking information opel cars ask , model \? well , sad truth , i'm entirely sure , 's two seater , roll headlights , hard top , really sporty looking friend one sitting yard really nice condition , body wise , transmission seized , n't run anyone info cars \? engine compartment looks really tight work , fine shape quite interested thanks ! darren gibbons gibbonsa sfu ca would manta , would \? \? \? sold buick dealers mid '70 's price leader \? \? \? \? sounds lot like opel gt 'd guess chassis kadett , rather bigger manta could easily wrong think later kadett 's sold buick opels craig think manta european name gt i'm pretty sure well european manta us gt entirely different bodies little chance manta went several generations coupe version ok time kadett 's sold pontiac lemans think true kadett us market years lemans \( old kadett \) latest version craig gt early '70s mid '70s manta different cars one looks like sports car , coupe chintan amin university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig construction hard hat area
boyle cactus org \( craig boyle \) subject 6700 hail damage record \? organization capital area central texas unix society , austin , tx distribution usa lines 30 article 1993apr20 pencom com stecz pencom com writes article 1993apr19 cactus org boyle cactus org \( craig boyle \) writes 90 integra hit hard 3 25 hailstorm austin , tx insurance company cut check 6600 \( 100 deductible \) last week record \? anybody else settlements hailstorm yet \? craig rumor guy dell computer miata totalled , would 10k guess either top , hail ripped top , could 10k worth hail damage miata body craig john stecz pencom com constitution grants right life , liberty , pursuit happiness attempt guarantee everyone happy
hardy u washington edu \( yong je lim \) subject dealer cheated wrong odometer reading need help ! organization university washington , seattle lines 14 distribution usa nntp posting host hardy u washington edu story bought car two weeks ago finally get hold previous owner car got maintanence history car '91 '92 , instrument pannel car replaced odometer also reset zero therefore , true meter reading reading replacement plus current mileage shows mile difference comparing mileage odometer disclosure dealer never told anything important story hope return car full refund u think possible \? anyone similar experiences \? comments appreciated thanks u washington edu
subject insurance question byuvm bitnet organization brigham young university lines 18 i'm buy new car finance since paid cash last car bought worry whether good amount insurance bank loan put amount wanted \( bank would wanted \) friends telling banks require kind insurance car protect since collateral loans true \? insurance gotten part insurance \? assume n't pay dealer extra insurance regular car insurance correct \? hear accident health type insurance dealers pretty sure money makers want verify n't buy types extras pay \? car , tax , license anything else \? ellen
rmt6r faraday clas virginia edu \( roy matthew thigpen \) subject ad said nissan altima best seller \? organization university virginia lines 35 boyle cactus org writes article menudo uh edu thang egr uh edu \( chin heng thang \) writes recently , saw ad altima says best seller past 6 months , true \? puzzled obvious untruth think going nissan claims altima best selling new car us \( think near verbatim \) lee 's statistics dept would proud sentence mean , think , totally new models , e cars never sold form , altima best seller , thereby eliminating accord , taurus etc people make claim minivan implying nissan quest villager selling chrysler mini vans true , stupid claim make commercial part introduction campaign vans kind bold statement make n't even sold one yet , eh \? thought buick oldsmobile bad shame nissan mercury ! interpretations \? craig anyone regarding cars sold past 6 months \? tony
rmt6r faraday clas virginia edu \( roy matthew thigpen \) subject \( w \) rec autos organization university virginia lines 3 something disconcerting name group \)
matmcinn nuscc nus sg \( matthew macintyre national university senegal \) subject opel owners \? organization national university singapore lines 1 x newsreader tin 1 1 pl4 way , people think opel \?
callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu \( james p callison \) subject fast nntp posting host uokmax ecn uoknor edu organization engineering computer network , university oklahoma , norman , ok , usa lines 66 article usenet ins cwru edu aas7 po cwru edu \( andrew spencer \) writes previous article , callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu \( james p callison \) says article usenet ins cwru edu aas7 po cwru edu \( andrew spencer \) writes previous article , wrat unisql uucp \( wharfie \) says shows much know anything brakes sho different 9 inch \( 9 5 \? forget \) discs around , vented front normal taurus setup \( smaller \) discs front , drums rear one saw vented rears lot course , sales man fool titanium wheels yeah , right later told magnesium believable , still crap , since al cheaper , good tend agree , tho still n't take sho standard running 130 regular basis brakes bigger , like 11 take look ones \( braking regulations \) well , let 's see bird sc computer controlled adjustable suspension , 4 wheel abs disks \( 11 vented front , 10 \( \? \) rear \) , 3 point rears also vented belts , sturdy passenger compartment , aerodynamics good enough without much change , 210 hp 310 ft lb supercharged 3 8l v6 , 4 wheel independent suspension \( plus limited slip differential \) , top speed excess 130mph , rides v rated tires \( yet find 225 60 speed rating \) standard \? , \? james , really hate , try reading damn posts ! n't 've done try answering damn question well aware fact mention sc never mentioned discussion sho 's spec know know specs quoted sho previous poster sounded little anemic say snuff kn way wishing one , make bad car merely means think ford could added extra bit safety tossed larger brakes , wheels plenty large enough fit \( memory serves right , may well \) motor plenty powerful enough need well , point sc sho similar characteristics \( front rear disks \( abs sho \? \) , high output v6 , 4 wheel independent suspension , good aerodynamics , 3 point harness , fat rubber , 130mph top speed \) one standard \( think sc \) , n't , \? flamage , curiousity james james p callison microcomputer coordinator , u oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i'm engineer , play one work forecast calls thunder '89 bird sc 's hell thing , killing man take away 's ever gonna munny , unforgiven
dlb5404 tamuts tamu edu \( daryl biberdorf \) subject plymouth sundance dodge shadow experiences \? organization texas university , college station lines 9 distribution usa nntp posting host tamuts tamu edu another user recently requested info shadow sundance cars , n't seen public responses people 's experiences cars \? daryl daryl biberdorf n5gjm biberdorf tamu edu sola gratia sola fide sola scriptura
mart csri toronto edu \( mart \) subject changing oil self distribution mxmsd lines 26 bobml mxmsd msd measurex com \( bob \) writes long silly discussion deleted 're , bother removing drain plug could remove dipstick instead suck mouth spit \? suggestion n't far fetched sounds years ago another time place , used oil changes boats powered automotive engines many cases , way get sort tray oil pan boxed bottom hull various chambers side get something , 'd spill oil sure trying get back used small pump powered electric drill suck oil dipstick hole long thin hose side designed fit dipstick tube , another , thicker shorter hose outlet side put convenient container i'm sure gadgets still available marine hardware suppliers want one mart l computer systems research institute university toronto toronto , canada m5s 1a4 \( 416 \) 978
johnson spectra com \( boyd johnson \) subject warning \( please read \) organization corporation lines 31 article dove nist gov keys starchild ncsl nist gov \( lawrence b keys \) writes n't anything new back 1985 driving high overpass night 805 san diego caught glimpse someone overpass passed rock slammed metal right front window girlfriend seat next called police next exit , doubt found five years ago san diego someone put coma brick thrown sunroof driving subsequently crashed n't think ever came coma , n't heard anything couple years know n't group , since brought , anyone idea n't bombed waco cult \? probably many children also minor fact defending 100 people attacking n't threatened attacked anyone outside compound years promiscuous religious nut constitute grounds mass murder koresh followers sorry posting group , thought previous post needed rebuttal follow portion please cross post direct follow ups appropriate newsgroup boyd johnson nosc ! spectra com ! johnson san diego , california intermittent newsfeed best selected groups opinions certainly n't match employer
ingr com \( phil mueller \) subject used bmw question \? \? \? organization intergraph lines 29 article 1993apr12 ua edu eng ua edu \( ravi \) writes hi , dying get answer pricing dealer san jose , california \( moved al \) moved alabama california \? sympathies year model description milage price 1991 318 black , looks good 46k 10 6k manual , ac , cassette , sun roof 1989 318 white 50k 9 6k make sure maintenance records oil changed every 3 months mileage cars fine sure 16 valve engine 8 valve 318 bmw name n't line '89 12k \? jump phil mueller ingr com b30 ingr com ama dod 1991 suzuki bandit 1977 bmw r100 7
parr acs ucalgary ca \( charles parr \) subject saturn puzzled pricing distribution na nntp posting host acs3 acs ucalgary ca organization university calgary , alberta lines 37 article 1993mar31 magnus acs ohio state edu jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu \( john f nielsen \) writes article armory centerline com jimf centerline com \( jim frost \) writes jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu \( john f nielsen \) writes want get lowest price possible , 's called capitalism news capitalism practice maximizing profits difference , lower costs increase profits personally i'm bothered saturn pricing scheme n't want pay much 're selling , go buy different car different dealer get nothing 's competition dealer competitive charging making kind profit , 's capitalism 's best power 'em 'd rather consumer dictate things cost dealers sorry , neither cost 's negotiation whether 's front honda dealership war , removed larger economic scale \( ie , saturn ca n't sell 's price , price drops , company stops building \) , remains negotiated value controlled market forces think consumer controls price ludicrous consumer controled price , cars would free one would build cars regards , charles within span last weeks heard elements separate threads , conjoined time , struck together form new chord within hollow echoing gourd unknown net person
kurt gmr com subject gm may build toyota car organization gm r lines 13 distribution world nntp posting host cs gmr com x useragent nuntius v1 1 x xxmessage id cs gmr com x xxdate fri , 16 apr 93 13 54 11 gmt appeared today japan economic journal reported gm plans build toyota car us sale japan bruce macdonald , vp gm corporate communications , yesterday confirmed gm president ceo jack smith meeting recently , president toyota meeting two discussed business opportunities increase gm exports japan , including component sales well completed vehicle sales , parts sales , two presidents agreed conceptually pursue arrangement whereby gm would build toyota , right hand drive vehicle us sale toyota japan working group formed model specifications , exact timing details
sorlin magnus acs ohio state edu \( steven j orlin \) subject changing oil self nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 22 article 1993apr15 news cs brandeis edu andyh chaos cs edu \( andrew j huang \) writes article 1993apr15 magnus acs ohio state edu sorlin magnus ac ohio state edu \( steven j orlin \) writes take electrodes amp ohm volt meter whatever connect one earlobe , insert fingers spark plug boots cheating guys ! hands must used ! couple questions technique first , firing order use \? start pointer finger pinky \? left hand right \? place hands flat table , arrange firing order left right secondly , two cylinders unaccounted suggestions \? well , friends n't \? \? \? 12 cylinders might excitement one person take
columbiasc ncr com \( daniel adams \) subject bmw 3 series 94 \? nntp posting host columbiasc ncr com reply dan columbiasc ncr com organization ncr corporation lines 19 article uwm edu , qazi csd4 csd uwm edu \( aamir hafeez qazi \) writes article slip nts uci edu , orion oac uci edu \( alvin \) going bmw 328 1994 \? could n't 2 5 liter six supposed enlarged 2 8 liters distant future \? makes sense , since new mercedes benz engines go 2 2l 4 2 8l 6 nothing btw , beleive numbers mb engines 156 225 hp respectively one hp might induce bmw create larger six also , 2 6 behind 3 er 2 5 time wrt hp sure would n't want shown ps mb engines n't released yet daniel
dcd se houston geoquest slb com \( dan day \) subject warning \( please read \) nntp posting host mudd se houston geoquest slb com organization geoquest system , inc houston lines 16 article constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu \( james p callison \) writes hear someone screwing car \( ie , setting alarm \) taunting come , damn sure colt delta elite also coming 's screwing car 'd get shot , 's potential physical danger 're taunting like , 's possible also intend rob physically harmful things houston last year woman heard sound someone garage , went investigate gun hand found guy process stealing bicycle quite reasonably asked stop refused , began taunting , woman quoted police report , told go ahead shoot , moron survived , charges filed woman
gwm spl1 spl loral com \( gary w mahan \) subject 's rush \( fast \) organization loral software productivity laboratory lines 12 good driver terrified 130mph \? thing fear going 130 drivers , switch left lane without using either rear view mirror flashers 130 150 ai n't rush , 's fun get want go much faster defense drivers , right lane states , people simply expect driving speed differential 50 mph n't think stupid \( course , exceptions \) , programmed 55mph limit \( states \) look rear view always calculate future positions cars based 50 speed differential dont get wrong , love drive left lane fast overtake cars right , slow tad bit rely judgement car , recognize speed differential , would stupid one btw , one else around , go !
cbnewsm cb att com \( arlen r martin \) subject windows organization distribution usa lines 11 consumer reports wrote 10 blazer shook like tired taxi cab one noise expecially irritating back window believe whole tailgate assembly window solid anyway , anyone problem , found fixes \? arlen martin microelectronics att ! ! \( 215 \) 391
sscvx1 ssc gov subject mazda feel right lines 24 nntp posting host sscvx1 organization superconducting super collider laboratory article msi umn edu , msi umn edu \( ram v \) writes 've 89 mazda 323 miles recently get good feeling road , esp wet pavement driving car feels car wandering grip road tires original ones threads \( passes penny head test \) shocks alignment checked things fine however feel like dont grip road feel car wandering esp turns help appreciated thanks two shots \( 1 \) check tires see wear bars , 're problem area \( tires pass penny test bars 's guide \) problem wet call may enough tread left channel water tire goes lifts road \( 2 \) tires age particular , soft tire compounds get harder put thru heat cycles harder compounds n't grip well soft ones effect noticable tires get hot often , competition , hits tires bob benson
orion uiuc edu \( \) subject 's rush \( fast \) organization university illinois urbana lines 16 gwm spl1 spl loral com \( gary w mahan \) writes good driver terrified 130mph \? thing fear going 130 drivers , switch left lane without using either rear view mirror flashers 130 150 ai n't rush , 's fun get want go much faster defense drivers , right lane states , people simply expect driving speed differential 50 mph n't think stupid \( course , exceptions \) , programmed 55mph limit \( states \) look rear view always calculate future positions cars based 50 speed differential dont get wrong , love drive left lane fast overtake cars right , slow tad bit rely judgement car , recognize speed differential , would stupid one btw , one else around , go ! keep good work guys afterall cops need occupied someone lesser mortals like us left alone orion uiuc edu
callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu \( james p callison \) subject dumbest automotive concepts time distribution na nntp posting host uokmax ecn uoknor edu organization engineering computer network , university oklahoma , norman , ok , usa lines 42 article drutx att com klf druwa att com \( franklinkl \) writes article 1rm constellation ecn uoknor edu , callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu \( james p callison \) writes article 1993apr13 slcs slb com dcd se houston geoquest slb com \( dan day \) writes article ctron news ctron com smith ctron com writes 's big aftermarket business almost cars come factory , fake convertible job definitely came aftermarket place amazes much people willing pay bad taste really ugly fake wheel compartments stuck onto trunk side \( sides ! \) tacky luxury cars \? 'em n't fake \( 're talking continental kit , named lincoln continental , first car sport one \) personally would love '56 bird continental kit \( supercharged v 8 \) one beautiful cars ever built , imho james continental may first modern era auto mount spare rear car hardly first car sport one various mounting techniques rear mounting spare quite common early automobiles , us foreign 1941 lincoln continental first car sport continental kit continental kit confused ye olde outside mounting bracket continental kit specific storage compartment \( 1941 continental neat trunk looks rather like laundry , imho \) james james p callison microcomputer coordinator , u oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i'm engineer , play one work forecast calls thunder '89 bird sc 's hell thing , killing man take away 's ever gonna munny , unforgiven
callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu \( james p callison \) subject sho sc nntp posting host uokmax ecn uoknor edu organization engineering computer network , university oklahoma , norman , ok , usa lines 42 article 1993apr15 2261 ganglion ann arbor mi us david ganglion ann arbor mi us \( david hwang \) writes article unisql uucp wrat unisql uucp \( wharfie \) writes article netcom com chriss netcom com \( chris silvester \) writes wagon , heard somehow slightly faster coupe wagon automatic , 's slower could due rear end ratio also usually automatics different rear ends manuals , limited experience anyways 'll fun looking rear end gears sho taurus front wheel drive vehicle went back checked article sho wagon quicker sho automatic , significantly slower real sho anyone would order sho automatic transmission beyond ca n't handle stick , stick regular taurus leave sho real drivers say n't real drivers ca n't use stick \( eg disabled persons \) , n't position use sho anyway would willing bet removed automatic transmissions performance type cars \( like 5 0l mustangs , camaros , like \) 'd cut number accidents year autos fine little sedans , business performance cars , imho james james p callison microcomputer coordinator , u oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i'm engineer , play one work forecast calls thunder '89 bird sc 's hell thing , killing man take away 's ever gonna munny , unforgiven
mty itesm mx \( ing orlando \) subject good price \? organization itesm , campus lines 25 nntp posting host mty itesm mx hi everybody , buy honda civic ex coupe dealer ask 12 , 750 , including c \( installed \) , including stereo , tax , registration fees live mexico , n't time go lot dealers compare prices dealer , tx good price car \? , much pay \? please e mail asap n't want post thanks lot orlando mty itesm mx orlando n de de de , n l , mexico \( 83 \) 58 2000 ext
rjwade rainbow ecn purdue edu \( robert j wade \) subject plymouth sundance dodge shadow experiences \? organization purdue university engineering computer network distribution usa lines 10 article tamsun tamu edu dlb5404 tamuts tamu edu \( daryl biberdorf \) writes another user recently requested info shadow sundance cars , n't seen public responses people 's experiences cars \? daryl pretty much junk , stay away replaced next year new models
cbnewsm cb att com \( steven c martin \) subject car buying story , christ , another dealer service scam organization distribution usa lines 36 article 1993apr16 newsgate sps mot com , markm bigfoot sps mot com \( mark monninger \) kind behavior shocked crying loud , turkeys think talk customers way still stay business \? , n't expect sales people bow , scrape , grovel presence sure n't expect abused either surprised way sales people talked sessions overheard neighboring sales evidently , success rate high enough continue business way must lot people easy intimidate couple months ago went dealership test drive car afterwards , sat discuss prices explained wanted car like one drove , different color said could get one exactly like wanted dealer network within day negotiated price signed deal next day , get call explains goofed , neglected take account price increase \( last price increase occurred 4 months prior visit \) still wanted car , would fork another 700 alternative , would honor price bought car test drove \( sitting around 6 months miles \) said goodbye good example still cover butts 's bad people n't demand honesty types dealers would longer business next dealership went straightforward honest first thing salesman said , lets 's see dealer cost work much profit make deal went problems steve
al qiclab scn rain com \( alan peterman \) subject electronic odometer organization scn research qic laboratories tigard , oregon lines 24 article megatest com alung megatest com \( aaron lung \) writes i'm mistaken , altering odometer illegal furthermore , surmise 'll tough alter bmw 's odometer got newer bmw 's electronic odometers making even cars mentioned 3 series late 80 's electronic odometer really mechanical drum type odometer , driven pulses speed sensor rear axle pulses converted mechanical pulses turn odometer speedometer way changing erasing eprom going change mileage reading also means odometer easy \( hard \) change mechanical odometer hand bit easier disconnect speed sensor run car speedometer odometer reading simple switch job also disable speed limiter , enable car reach 's full speed \) alan l peterman \( 503 \) 684 1984 hm work al qiclab scn rain com 's odd get older , days longer , years shorter !
baker dallas geoquest slb com subject insurance says car totalled nntp posting host dallas geoquest slb com reply baker slb com organization schlumberger data services dallas lines 26 wednesday morning , another driver decided illegally turn left front , great damage car \( honda civic \) yet pay car , body shop says insurance company wants total car n't able get touch person handling claim , checked things 1 \) 3700 00 2 \) blue book retail 00 3 \) loan value 00 4 \) trade value 4000 00 could anyone give advice could insurance company give reasonable amount loss car thanks , james baker baker dallas geoquest slb com
parr acs ucalgary ca \( charles parr \) subject options would great nntp posting host acs3 acs ucalgary ca organization university calgary , alberta lines 26 list options would useful existing options car , things 'd like 1 \) , great little gadget lets keep rough track mileage , makes good second gas gauge 2 \) full size spare 3 \) built power systems radar detectors 4 \) fitting allows generate household current engine running , plug ins trunk , engine compartment cabin feel free add regards , charles x within span last weeks heard elements separate threads , conjoined time , struck together form new chord within hollow echoing gourd unknown net person
parr acs ucalgary ca \( charles parr \) subject dumb options list nntp posting host acs3 acs ucalgary ca organization university calgary , alberta lines 16 idea list pointless options know , stuff get car earthly use \? 1 \) power windows add wish regards , charles within span last weeks heard elements separate threads , conjoined time , struck together form new chord within hollow echoing gourd unknown net person
aas7 po cwru edu \( andrew spencer \) subject 's rush \( fast \) organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 34 reply aas7 po cwru edu \( andrew spencer \) nntp posting host slc5 ins cwru edu previous article , gwm spl1 spl loral com \( gary w mahan \) says good driver terrified 130mph \? thing fear going 130 drivers , switch left lane without using either rear view mirror flashers 130 150 ai n't rush , 's fun get want go much faster defense drivers , right lane states , people simply expect driving speed differential 50 mph n't think stupid \( course , exceptions \) , programmed 55mph limit \( states \) look rear view always calculate future positions cars based 50 speed differential dont get wrong , love drive left lane fast overtake cars right , slow tad bit rely judgement car , recognize speed differential , would stupid one curiosity , would make stupid one \? seems , everybody aware enough going need calculate future position need look mirrors little glance around , able tell much faster car going maybe precisely , well enough know let around try pass know talking , driver startled , startled drivers cruising around 90 i'm 55 65 problem , though , saw , fault around , fault paying attention task hand oddly enough , since 2nd time \( happened 2x around 4 mo 'd liscence around 6 mo \) , n't startled 've passed cars roughly twice speed car another odd occurance fact seems happen long trips drive along , n't happen \) even long trips ! \) \( adrenaline 've bad cop experiences speeding , anything limit scared 'll get caught \) maybe raise limit , pay better attention curious , drew
jburrill boi hp com \( jim burrill \) subject windows distribution usa organization idaho river country , salmon , , , boise , selway , priest x newsreader tin version 1 1 8 pl6 lines 19 arlen r martin \( cbnewsm cb att com \) wrote consumer reports wrote 10 blazer shook like tired taxi cab one noise expecially irritating back window believe whole tailgate assembly window solid anyway , anyone problem , found fixes \? relate 've tried everything 86 , every point , wd40 , etc grease two cheap hinges tailgate seems quiet time , grease works hinges \( hinge pins appear made 16 penny nails ! \) another vibration seems get worse age , vibration transmission 4th gear miles bought new , treated easily , fast road stuff ca n't gm build like used \? ford explorers look nice , look price jim burrill
mje pookie pass wayne edu \( michael j edelman \) subject saturn 's pricing policy organization wayne state university lines 21 distribution world reply mje pookie pass wayne edu nntp posting host pookie pass wayne edu ordered saturn sl1 considering imports frankly , saturn way business service big plus n't bought new car since bought honda 4wd back '85 , offended met saturn indeed different made three different visits dealer bought car , never pressured saturn also best sales support , fixed pricing made easy decide exactly wanted buy another big selling point running mechanic dealer 's fixing imports 20 years bought saturn , based 's seen heard customers saturn also good extended warranty program 675 6 year 60k miles , fully refunded n't use works actual cost 170 , based 6 year treasury rates using savings account rates 's like 120 first three years also buys free rental warranty work , without counting refund mike
moe dseg ti com \( robert \) subject sho sc nntp posting host dseg ti com organization forest lane design center lines 42 article 28 constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu \( james p callison \) writes article 1993apr15 2261 ganglion ann arbor mi us david ganglion ann arbor mi us \( david hwang \) writes article unisql uucp wrat unisql uucp \( wharfie \) writes article netcom com chriss netcom com \( chris silvester \) writes anyone would order sho automatic transmission beyond ca n't handle stick , stick regular taurus leave sho real drivers say n't real drivers ca n't use stick \( eg disabled persons \) , n't position use sho anyway would willing bet removed automatic transmissions performance type cars \( like 5 0l mustangs , camaros , like \) 'd cut number accidents year autos fine little sedans , business performance cars , imho james disagree 92 z28 350 4 speed auto w overdrive , really better way chevy autos long life ability handle copious amount power live dallas area , manual would much harder drive traffic still lived sticks like used , manual would fun safety wise , auto less distracting would hate shifting gears trying ease traffic freeways performance wise , hold stock 5 0 mustang 5 0 camaro w five speed imho \) robert l infinity notion best contemplated dseg ti com warm bed texas instruments , inc opinions , ti 's
wrat unisql uucp \( wharfie \) subject fast organization unisql , inc , austin , texas , usa lines 24 article 1qkon8 3re armory centerline com jimf centerline com \( jim frost \) writes larger engine 's sho slightly modified family sedan powerful engine n't even bother improving brakes shows much know anything brakes sho different 9 inch \( 9 5 \? forget \) discs around , vented front normal taurus setup \( smaller \) discs front , drums rear argument still boils sho n't driven fast , jim frost , say n't designed go fast think sure n't pay attention postings damn straight 're one people makes stuff tries pawn god 's truth want lies go listen television rat
wrat unisql uucp \( wharfie \) subject get new york taxi \? distribution na organization unisql , inc , austin , texas , usa lines 20 article canada ncr ca canada ncr ca \( tim nelson \) writes older ny taxis made checker car company , would love one , checker car company still business \? checker motors went business 1982 's hard get old checkers worth restoring , since almost every one fleet vehicle driven ground get body decent shape mechanicals available somewhere checker used whatever parts around instance , chevy straight six gmc truck radiator ford rear mine model looking checker marathon actually , want checker special find one good luck i'm sorry let mine go
gregg xenon stanford edu \( gregg l \) subject differences insurance rates keywords insurance organization cs department , stanford university , california , usa distribution ca lines 23 considering buying new car , called three insurance companies california get estimates asked coverage deductibles companies charge according zip code others charge according city anyhow , gave zip code city three places 's found \( '93 integra gs \) aaa 2000 yr state farm 92 yr allstate 1220 yr aaa non profit , said could also expect receive 200 300 back end year still , huge gap companies state farm wants twice much allstate think suspicious , 've never heard anybody else complain comments \? thanks , gregg l gregg cs stanford edu
adobe com \( gordon \) subject honda accord brake problem organization adobe systems incorporated lines 32 joni writes honda accord hit magic 100 , 000 mile mark sorts things beginning go bad latest problem experiencing brakes still stop car fine , stopped completely , brake pedal sink another 2 3 inches feels really strange , worried brakes quit working one days checked brake fluid , reservoir full , fluid looked really dirty \( like dirty oil \) called mechanic told need new brake master cylinder , cost whopping 250 300 alone '79 honda accord 110 , 000 miles started showing behavior replaced brake master cylinder took hour cost 45 sure beats paying 300 someone else ! wanted rebuild master cylinder instead putting rebuilt one , would cost 20 30 rebuild kit honda brake master cylinder easy get two bolts attach engine compartment two brake lines enter master cylinder tricky part brake lines stuck tight open end wrench rounded bolt heads ! use grips loosen suckers wow ! best invention since sliced bread easy bolt new part place , add new brake fluid , bleed brakes quite easy even beginner local auto parts store repair manual honda accord detailed diagrams master brake cylinder step step procedure replacing
ak296 yfn ysu edu \( john r daker \) subject options would great organization st elizabeth hospital , youngstown , oh lines 26 reply ak296 yfn ysu edu \( john r daker \) nntp posting host yfn ysu edu previous article , parr acs ucalgary ca \( charles parr \) says list options would useful existing options car , things 'd like 1 \) , great little gadget lets keep rough track mileage , makes good second gas gauge 2 \) full size spare 3 \) built power systems radar detectors 4 \) fitting allows generate household current engine running , plug ins trunk , engine compartment cabin feel free add 5 \) power windows dod 650 darkman significant problems face cannot solved level thinking created albert einstein eternal champion
mje pookie pass wayne edu \( michael j edelman \) subject manual shift bigots organization wayne state university lines 17 distribution world reply mje pookie pass wayne edu nntp posting host pookie pass wayne edu , ego regards shifting ability big anyone else 's , ordered first car auto trans n't planning driving convinced things changed since days slip 'n' slide shift better , 's clutch wear \( honda wanted 800 4wd wagon last year ! got done 500 \) , costs 5 gas milage highway makes easier concentrate radios car \) \( oddly enough , two best friends auto industry motor city switched wholeheartedly autos , wives insist manual shift envy \? \) aside , given today 's technology warranties 're handing auto trans seemed like excellent choice call convert mike
mje pookie pass wayne edu \( michael j edelman \) subject saturn 91 92 manual transmission problem organization wayne state university lines 17 distribution world reply mje pookie pass wayne edu nntp posting host pookie pass wayne edu article crdnns crd ge com , utica ge com writes many trips dealer , admittedly patient , admittedly going nothing dealer however follow bulletin review proper procedures owner next attempt satisfaction customer 800 number first round n't sound hopeful i'm surprised know local case guy took saturn back five times complain n't properly eliminated rattling noise saturn gave new car call 1 800 number
aas7 po cwru edu \( andrew spencer \) subject fast organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 25 reply aas7 po cwru edu \( andrew spencer \) nntp posting host slc5 ins cwru edu previous article , wrat unisql uucp \( wharfie \) says article 1qkon8 3re armory centerline com jimf centerline com \( jim frost \) writes larger engine 's sho slightly modified family sedan powerful engine n't even bother improving brakes shows much know anything brakes sho different 9 inch \( 9 5 \? forget \) discs around , vented front normal taurus setup \( smaller \) discs front , drums rear one saw vented rears lot course , sales man fool titanium wheels yeah , right later told magnesium believable , still crap , since al cheaper , good tend agree , tho still n't take sho standard running 130 regular basis brakes bigger , like 11 take look ones \( braking regulations \) drew
aas7 po cwru edu \( andrew spencer \) subject sho sc organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 53 reply aas7 po cwru edu \( andrew spencer \) nntp posting host slc5 ins cwru edu previous article , moe dseg ti com \( robert \) says article 28 constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu \( james p callison \) writes article 1993apr15 2261 ganglion ann arbor mi us david ganglion ann arbor mi us \( david hwang \) writes article unisql uucp wrat unisql uucp \( wharfie \) writes article netcom com chriss netcom com \( chris silvester \) writes anyone would order sho automatic transmission beyond ca n't handle stick , stick regular taurus leave sho real drivers say n't real drivers ca n't use stick \( eg disabled persons \) , n't position use sho anyway would willing bet removed automatic transmissions performance type cars \( like 5 0l mustangs , camaros , like \) 'd cut number accidents year autos fine little sedans , business performance cars , imho james disagree 92 z28 350 4 speed auto w overdrive , really better way chevy autos long life ability handle copious amount power live dallas area , manual would much harder drive traffic still lived sticks like used , manual would fun safety wise , auto less distracting would hate shifting gears trying ease traffic freeways performance wise , hold stock 5 0 mustang 5 0 camaro w five speed imho \) ho 's disagree ho 's loved dallas rush hour stick auto \( like time auto \) course , rush hours nothing , hear lived la , might different persuasion , record , rarely shift gears merging traffic 5 speeds good 4th good around 80 90 , time , wind 's going hurt anything , keeps anyway shift top gear exceeding redline 4th \( fairly rare , unless drive ferrari , 'd bet \) hit cruising speed feel comfortable \( mother sitting seat complaining wind poor little engine way hi \) ho 's drew
organization penn state university psuvm psu edu subject dents car lines 5 turn police like would accident , get report send insurance company contact guys insurance company pay would accident caused thus need go court friend mine got money work
rdb1 cbnewsj cb att com \( ronald j deblock jr \) subject ultimate awd vehicles organization distribution usa lines 14 article ecs umass edu ecs umass edu writes s4 became s4 called 200 turbo quattro model come wagon , quick wagon rare also mike sylvester umass yes , saw 200 turbo quattro wagon 287 nj monday thought audi stopped selling wagons us 5000 exactly type vehicle would like bet price 4 5 times car budget ron deblock rdb1 att com \( 's number 1 rdb1 , letter l \) bell labs somerset , nj usa
jao megatest com \( john \) subject legal car buying problems organization megatest corporation x newsreader tin 1 1 pl3 distribution ca lines 32 rboudrie chpc org \( rob boudrie \) writes article stratus swdc stratus com bob runway swdc stratus com \( bob \) writes agreeing terms signed contract drove home new car later night noticed terms different terms agreed \( made stupid mistake checking everything contract \) happened last saturday heard cooling law allowing three days reconsider contract true \? anyone point law \? transaction happened dealership , matters cooling period applies certain situations lik solicited home also think cooling period ends actually accept merchandise case , car buyer would right return slightly used , highly devalued , car 2 days buying yeah 's trick want buy new car , 'd buy return one , go negotiate better deal pre owned used car however , agree terms , , sign , dealer slips contract different terms , leads believe terms verbally agreed , fraud 3 day limit restitution fraud may sue \( win \) get almost certainly threaten sue john jao megatest com jao netcom com
dreitman oregon uoregon edu \( daniel r reitman , attorney \) subject legal car buying problems organization university oregon lines 41 distribution ca nntp posting host oregon uoregon edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article 1993apr20 chpc org , rboudrie chpc org \( rob boudrie \) writes article stratus swdc stratus com bob runway swdc stratus com \( bob \) writes agreeing terms signed contract drove home new car later night noticed terms different terms agreed \( made stupid mistake checking everything contract \) happened last saturday heard cooling law allowing three days reconsider contract true \? anyone point law \? transaction happened dealership , matters cooling period applies certain situations lik solicited home also think cooling period ends actually accept merchandise case , car buyer would right return slightly used , highly devalued , car 2 days buying yeah 's trick want buy new car , 'd buy return one , go negotiate better deal pre owned used car discussion purposes hand , proven , 's possible changed terms could thrown question whether agreement contains merger clause see ucc 2 202 \( evidence \) 're talking warranties , , course , ucc 2 316 looked little information none us say anything conclusive daniel reitman uniform commercial code protects innocent purchaser , shield , blindly naive , hopelessly gullible atlas auto rental corp v weisberg , 54 misc 2d 168 , 172 , 281 n 2d 400 , 405 \( n city ct 1967 \)
gwm spl1 spl loral com \( gary w mahan \) subject 's rush \( fast \) organization loral software productivity laboratory lines 14 dont get wrong , love drive left lane fast overtake cars right , slow tad bit rely j car , recognize speed differential , would stupid one curiosity , would make stupid one \? seems , everybody aware enough going need couldnt agree work people also always see motorcycles constantly scan behind \( one wink mirrors \) two outside mirrors actually spend much time checking six \( cops know \) still get caught guard every maybe didnt word right first time trying say plan blow somebody high speed differential assume safe guy sees , stupid \( course , depends circumstances \) scary instances assumed dont think fault guy \( going 25 55 thats whole different story \)
aas7 po cwru edu \( andrew spencer \) subject dumb options list organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 21 reply aas7 po cwru edu \( andrew spencer \) nntp posting host slc5 ins cwru edu previous article , parr acs ucalgary ca \( charles parr \) says idea list pointless options know , stuff \( \) get car earthly use \? 1 \) fitting allows generate household current engine running , plug ins trunk , engine compartment cabin feel free add regards , charles x within span last weeks heard elements separate threads , conjoined time , struck together form new chord within hollow echoing gourd unknown net person \)
aas7 po cwru edu \( andrew spencer \) subject 's rush \( fast \) organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 25 reply aas7 po cwru edu \( andrew spencer \) nntp posting host slc5 ins cwru edu previous article , gwm spl1 spl loral com \( gary w mahan \) says dont get wrong , love drive left lane fast overtake cars right , slow tad bit rely j car , recognize speed differential , would stupid one curiosity , would make stupid one \? seems , everybody aware enough going need couldnt agree work people also always see motorcycles constantly scan behind \( one wink mirrors \) two outside mirrors actually spend much time checking six \( cops know \) still get caught guard every maybe didnt word right first time trying say plan blow somebody high speed differential assume safe guy sees , stupid \( course , depends circumstances \) scary instances assumed dont think fault guy \( going 25 55 thats whole different story \) ok agree , , proved , ideally supposed happen , n't always even though i'm one passing , n't see makes stupid , agree , think safe , guy supposed paying attention , yes , dumb \( maybe dumber \? \) drew
laszlo csd4 csd uwm edu \( f \) subject dumbest automotive concepts time organization university wisconsin milwaukee lines 37 reply laszlo csd4 csd uwm edu nntp posting host 129 89 7 4 originator laszlo csd4 csd uwm edu article news ysu edu , ak296 yfn ysu edu \( john r daker \) cup holders \( driving enough undertaking \) ashtrays \( smokers seem think 's fine use road \) oh , sure sorry , absence gonna discourage anyone eating drinking car let 's put one anyway , least n't distraction trying spill furthermore , obviously smoker cold day , takes certain skill toss butt cracked window without wind deflect back seat also , 'cause smokers use window , n't mean us reminds one pleasant feature otherwise ergonomically hellish interior alfa romeo milano could ash cigarette without even removing hand wheel right fake convertible roofs vinyl roofs gold trim , agree , abominations , right along fake continental spare tire kit 's sad watching little old ladies try load groceries trunk huge tire way pitiful fake convertible top cadillac , chrome door trim still visible fooling anyone course , hyundai excel saw laszlo csd4 csd uwm edu extraordinaire v little 's minister fine 0 brands sampled 55 import luxury , 17 opinions necessarily mine \( mine , either \) anyone bum sig \?
laszlo csd4 csd uwm edu \( f \) subject dumbest automotive concepts tim organization university wisconsin milwaukee lines 23 reply laszlo csd4 csd uwm edu nntp posting host 129 89 7 4 originator laszlo csd4 csd uwm edu article 1993mar29 1 uncavx unca edu , uncavx unca edu wrote 8 saab 900 ignition floor ! \? ! actually , started great idea steering column locks became popular , saab installed lock put car reverse , remove key , car stays reverse ! also , suppose get car , thug comes demands keys gunpoint hand , gets , idea put key ! , run away \( perhaps shoot anyway \) heard actually happened somewhere btw , hear saab 900 's new successor ignition console , seats , belongs laszlo csd4 csd uwm edu extraordinaire v little 's minister fine 0 brands sampled 55 import luxury , 17 opinions necessarily mine \( mine , either \) anyone bum sig \?
c23st kocrsv01 delcoelect com \( spiros triantafyllopoulos \) subject ad said nissan altima best seller \? organization delco electronics corp lines 23 article cronkite central sun com dbernard clesun central sun com writes puzzled obvious untruth think going nissan claims altima best selling new car us \( think near verbatim \) lee 's statistics dept would proud sentence note corolla prism also new designs hey new guess nissan n't even sell many toyota , would nameplate qualifier , n't nissan officially registering car far government paperwork goes , nissan stanza altima , avoid costly lengthy paperwork \? read net ago , someone actually may said 's little stanza logo altima somewhere ways \) spiros spiros triantafyllopoulos c23st kocrsv01 delcoelect com software technology , delco electronics \( 317 \) 451 0815 gm hughes electronics , kokomo , 46904 post , therefore armm
kocrsv01 delcoelect com \( ron gaskins \) subject dumbest automotive concepts tim originator keywords dimmer switch location \( repost \) organization delco electronics corp lines 22 article 1993apr8 exu ericsson se , exu ericsson se \( lasse , , \) writes article cas org , cas org \( \) writes imho , dumbest thing ever copying japanese moving dimmer switch floor lever controlling turn signal cruise federal government mandated passenger cars model year '95 return floor mounted dimmer switch study national highway traffic safety administration \( \) found unacceptable percentage dusk collisions direct result drivers getting left foot stuck steering wheel \) ron gaskins delcoelect com automotive electronic systems delco electronics gm hughes electronics , kokomo , 46904 ron gaskins delcoelect com automotive electronic systems delco electronics gm hughes electronics , kokomo , 46904
kocrsv01 delcoelect com \( thomas redmond \) subject warning \( please read \) originator keywords brick , rock , danger , gun , violent , teenagers organization delco electronics corp distribution us lines 19 article 1r1d62 d6s agate berkeley edu , bh anarres cs berkeley edu \( brian harvey \) writes rfelix netcom com \( robbie felix \) writes thousands kind teenagers volunteer local agencies help children , seniors , homeless \? hear , hear ! thanks , robbie also n't read much violence teenagers , george bush burying alive tens thousands unarmed iraqi 17 year olds , trying surrender , bulldozers hand , think true , without singling teenagers blame , violence socially acceptable used us 'd like discourage violence plenty work people ages n't know george could drive !
iftccu ca boeing com \( paul \) subject toyota land cruiser worth \? organization boeing commercial airplane group lines 30 response post suv 's , got several unsolicited recommendations check land cruiser , despite astronomical price toyota dealer told 's cult car car good enough create passionate loyal following , must something really extraordinary , land cultists chance convert jonathan edwards edwards intranet com intranet , inc 617 527 7020 based experience '79 \( hard top jeep style model \) would definitely give new model consideration market older models well built unless toyota lost mind , would assume , proven otherwise , newer models inherited qualities ancestors two major differences running gear \( i'm aware \) need study '79 solid front axle housing whereas newer models independant front suspension solid axle theoretically stronger reliable newer model , experience tell independant front suspension , doubt , compromise made satisfy typical user , never need real utility vehicle second difference type transfer case used newer models i'm sure , think went full time 4wd wheel drive system older lock type advantages disadvantages paul atc boeing com std disclaimers apply
jimf centerline com \( jim frost \) subject car saftey important \? organization centerline software , inc lines 32 nntp posting host 140 239 3 202 jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu \( john f nielsen \) writes article armory centerline com jimf centerline com \( jim frost \) writes tcorkum bnr ca \( trevor corkum \) writes figure 30mph collisions brick walls n't common enough spend much extra money protection , lots low speed collisions worry get 30 mph accident may reconsider 've one really life something value car 's looks consider insurance , may happen often , 'll sure glad got safe car granted tests n't perfect 'd much rather car well test car horribly raise valid point , 's tradeoff much money want spend kind protection \? could buy volvo , saab , get really good crash protection \( luxuries \) 'll pay significantly case 's question cars beyond budget even high speed head collisions beneficial item good old 3 point seatbelt nowadays , least us , get airbag get 3 point belt \( presumably \) get added safety benefit well 's something certainly look inexpensive cars 02 , course jim frost jimf centerline com
jimf centerline com \( jim frost \) subject best radar detector valentine 1 \? organization centerline software , inc lines 26 nntp posting host 140 239 3 202 troy sequent com \( troy wecker \) writes question valentine 1 \( 299 \) good range significant enough 2 3 times expensive others big win v 1 range rather multiple transmitter tracking \( later called gimmick conclusion disagree \) since detector incorporates multiple receivers 's surprising 's significantly expensive added capabilities may help , added value us live areas lot false alarms summary valentine 1 way expensive significantly better performer ! certainly call interesting i'm another person thinks added value might coming high cost adequate radar detectors available less half cost one suited rather well long distance travelling areas i'm familiar 'd probably consider getting v 1 's additional information would useful discriminating false alarms jim frost jimf centerline com
ward cs uiuc edu \( christ ward \) subject dumbest automotive concepts time organization university illinois , dept comp sci , urbana , il lines 49 vmcms csuohio edu writes article jus news cso uiuc edu cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu \( oriolefan uiuc \) writes laszlo csd4 csd uwm edu \( f \) writes article news ysu edu , ak296 yfn ysu edu \( john r daker \) fake convertible roofs vinyl roofs gold trim , agree , abominations , right along fake continental spare tire kit 's sad watching little old ladies try load groceries trunk huge tire way pitiful fake convertible top cadillac , chrome door trim still visible fooling anyone course , hyundai excel saw seen supreme coupe \( \) vinyl roof , ditto taurus shoot owners , , 's late gets better 've seen 4 door escort , chevy 10 blazer , even chevy astro mini van mini van w fake convertible top something want see eating ! better yet 's town wire wheels , vinyl roof , tacky paint job continental spare \( showing wire wheel within , course \) i'm scared look inside seen rolling road glad n't ate bob lady luck must wonderful girl csuohio edu 's never friend mine ! vmcms csuohio edu alan parsons project 3b1 lives ! chris ward dod n't take life seriously , never come alive \?
conradie firga sun ac za \( gerrit conradie \) subject dealer cheated wrong odometer reading need help ! organization university stellenbosch , sa distribution usa lines 26 article shelley u washington edu hardy u washington edu \( yong je lim \) writes subject dealer cheated wrong odometer reading need help ! story bought car two weeks ago finally get hold previous owner car got maintanence history car '91 '92 , instrument pannel car replaced odometer also reset zero therefore , true meter reading reading replacement plus current mileage shows mile difference comparing mileage odometer disclosure dealer never told anything important story hope return car full refund u think possible \? anyone similar experiences \? comments appreciated thanks something happened south africa year ago dealer sold mercedes odometer reading 150k kilometers lady turned actual reading 160k court case followed lady said would n't bought car much km 's dealer found quilty , fined take back car think case get sworn statement previous owner take car back dealer threaten something gerrit
conradie firga sun ac za \( gerrit conradie \) subject car saftey important \? organization university stellenbosch , sa lines 25 article 1993apr20 bnr ca tcorkum bnr ca \( trevor corkum \) writes subject car saftey important \? recently thumbing 1993 lemon aid new car guide found car would given picture sentences later noting driver passenger virtually guaranteed killed front end collision highly recommended small car \( civic \) worst crash rating small cars listed many cases 'great' vehicles would n't survive accident , safety one important factors buying car \? definitely ! safety important buying car wo n't buy small car like civic whatever great safety handling speed seems would dead small car large car accident gerrit
kissane black berkeley edu \( john g kissane \) subject manual shift bigots nntp posting host black reply kissane rtsg mot com \( john g kissane \) organization motorola inc , cellular infrastructure group lines 7 matter interest anyone know autos popular us europe rare \? \? \? wondering john kissane motorola ireland ltd , 'o o' uucp uunet ! ! ! industrial estate , \( \) \( \) internet rtsg mot com , , ireland u
jwg sedv1 acd4 acd com \( jwg \) subject warning \( please read \) reply bh anarres cs berkeley edu 's message 20 apr 93 17 50 58 gmt organization u jwg organization netcom com 1r1d62 d6s agate berkeley edu lines 21 article 1r1d62 d6s agate berkeley edu bh anarres cs berkeley edu \( brian harvey \) writes rfelix netcom com \( robbie felix \) writes thousands kind teenagers volunteer local agencies help children , seniors , homeless \? hear , hear ! thanks , robbie also n't read much violence teenagers , george bush burying alive tens thousands unarmed iraqi 17 year olds , trying surrender , bulldozers n't know george bush could drive kee ripe jim grey jwg acd4 acd com
abbott enet dec com \( robert abbott \) subject water trunk 89 probe \? \? nntp posting host organization tp performance lines 18 article transfer stratus com , tszeto sneezy ts stratus com \( tommy szeto \) writes water gradually builds trunk friend 's 89 ford probe every would remove spare scoop water plywood carpet cover trunk would guess usually happens good thunder storm qs 1 \) common problem \? 2 \) drain holes located hatch \? problem '90 mx 6 luckily fixed warranty think replaced tail light gasket check dealer , 's known problem robert k abbott abbott tps enet dec com
alex monsanto com \( bill c \) subject mr2 car cover sale organization monsanto company x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 lines 19 sale fitted car cover specifically , 92 , '93 mr 2 top line evolution 3 tm fabric used less 6 months cover excellent condition , cuts , locking cable color silver price 90 f b ship collect please contact monsanto com phone 314 576 6 pm cdt
bowmanj csn org \( jerry bowman \) subject opel owners \? nntp posting host fred colorado edu organization university colorado boulder , ocs lines 26 article c5sxi4 j9b news cso uiuc edu cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu \( oriolefan uiuc \) writes gibbonsa fraser sfu ca \( darren gibbons \) writes i'm looking information opel cars ask , model \? well , sad truth , i'm entirely sure , 's two seater , roll headlights , hard top , really sporty looking friend one sitting yard really nice condition , body wise , transmission seized , n't run anyone info cars \? engine compartment looks really tight work , fine shape quite interested thanks ! darren gibbons gibbonsa sfu ca would manta , would \? \? \? sold buick dealers mid '70 's price leader \? \? \? \? chintan amin llama uiuc edu looks like miniature corvette would opel gt , headlights flipped pulling lever inside chintan amin university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig construction hard hat area
aas7 po cwru edu \( andrew spencer \) subject mr2 noisy engine organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 33 reply aas7 po cwru edu \( andrew spencer \) nntp posting host slc5 ins cwru edu previous article , eliot lanmola engr washington edu \( eliot \) says article usenet pa dec com tomacj opco enet dec com \( thunderbirds go ! ! ! \) writes mr2 owners motor head gurus , know mr2 's engine sounds noisy \? mr2 's engine noisy best times , even nice nose 's one ugly noises assuming non turbo mr2 , characteristic large inline 4 n't balance shafts guess toyota n't care little details like brag mid engine configuration flashy styling , automatically cross car consideration \( recommendation \) inline 4 larger 2 liters balance shafts good rule thumb keep mind ever want halfway decent engine noise really bugs , nothing else except sell get v6 eliot nice theory bad mr2 's never came four cylinder 2 0 liters like 1 6 \? nonturbo 's 2 2 \? also understand anyone using balancing shafts four cylinders , must pay saab royalty using patented design like porsche 's 3 0 i4 c ya drew
ux1 cso uiuc edu \( jim mckay \) subject water trunk 89 probe \? \? organization university illinois urbana lines 37 tszeto sneezy ts stratus com \( tommy szeto \) writes water gradually builds trunk friend 's 89 ford probe every would remove spare scoop water plywood carpet cover trunk would guess usually happens good thunder storm qs 1 \) common problem \? yes common problem leaks occur seal taillights unfortunately , ford probes recall say least 2 \) drain holes located hatch \? drain holes know used tub drain waited three months short cash would n't fix warrantee paid dearly messed electrical system including balance motion sensor located near fuel trunk resulted passive restraints would retract ended paying 200 sensor replaced 90 tail lights \( replaced hatch gasket insisted problem charge proved right \) mention water damage covers trunk spare com taillights annoying n't let water problem go get fixed 'll pay later considering common problem hope every one complains ford thanks info tom tom szeto ! peanuts ! ones tszeto sneezy ts stratus com bottom include disclaimer h homer simpson
shantanu risc sps mot com \( shantanu \) subject bmw 's worth price \? organization motorola , inc austin , tx lines 86 nntp posting host daffy sps mot com article gte com hhd0 harvey gte com \( horace dediu \) writes article daffy sps mot com , shantanu risc sps mot com \( shantanu \) writes comments \) good performance mid high speeds obtained adjusting top gear final drive ratios contrary popular , number japanese cars quite good performance 70 top gear problem question perform consistently conditions \( roads , winds curves \) speed hours end , year year without giving driver white knuckles \? experience autobahns , good touring car easily distinguished best stay cruise control 155 hours 've seen typical boy racer fiat try keep sure hit century mark , wind blows wrong way change lanes , overpass , may fly right buffeting 125 severe enough make hood bend tires 155 melt , kill many german cars designed environment , even ca n't seem get way stop light \( mercedes come mind particular \) another design point fuel economy speeds germans gear car good high speed efficiency \( typical b 300e turns 1500 55 , almost stall \) good point idea either hondas handle 100 mph , reach 155 however , using 70 90 mph \) quite amenable long high speed drives 've done several 1k mile trips civic problems whatsoever last big trip made driving new york texas remember driving 700 800 miles day typically 75 85 mph without problems i'm sure would comfortable driving benz , white knuckles problems winds curves trip back new orleans 80 way houston problems b \) cars surprising good fuel economy high speeds see difference sustained 60 mph sustained 80mph trip back new orleans , got 30 mpg integra , quite ok mind , engine revs almost 4k 80 civic markedly better integra fuel economy 50k miles road , still get 35 mpg 70 75 mph driving b \) ca n't understand high scale european afraid design engines repeatedly revved near redline low gears last 50k miles lowly civic , detriment either engine clutch , getting excellent mpg boot 'd call engineering hack cover design deficiencies 50k miles 'd still breaking high scale european typically designed last 300 , 000 miles per engine , 500 , 000 mi per chassis \( record 1 , 500 , 000 miles benz diesel , 've read transmissions lasting 700 , 000 miles \) speaking , ca n't compare diesel gasoline engine see enough bmws gasoline sale 100 150k miles advertise rebuilt engines honda build accord 30k , 'd darn well expect sucker last 300k miles diesels , good efficiency cost acceleration , popular european cars \( diesel considered green fuel \) smallest luxo , see difference mentality diesels us considered slightly worse useless , extremely dirty boot ca n't give away ever got caught behind early 80 's stop light \? 's pleasant newer mb 's lot better though diesel volvos probably offenders economy , care \? gas cheap ! personally would n't buy diesel car reason buy \? shantanu somerset \( motorola \) phone \( 512 \) 795 motorola inc , mail drop oe 513 fax \( 512 \) 795 6501 william cannon drive w austin tx 78735 8598 email shantanu com oakhill sps mot com
andrei uucp \( andrei \) subject bimmer vs beamer nntp posting host ucs ualberta ca organization university alberta , edmonton canada distribution usa lines 15 mark monninger \( markm \) wrote although direct response referenced article , set record straight , beamers bmw motorcycles bmw cars bimmers please , let 's get terms straight actually , would argue true bimmer round tail light 2002 1600 mark back building round tail light bimmers \( red , generated , eating \) yuppies got market \( became beamers hood ornaments started andrei
ns1 cc lehigh edu \( chad andrew \) subject car alarm info \( box \) organization lehigh university lines 12 want get car alarm thinking getting box anyone knowledge experience alarms \? price ranges different models \? good car alarms \? please email responces lehigh edu chad chad
bmoss grinch sim es com \( brent moss \) subject water trunk 89 probe \? \? nntp posting host 130 187 200 5 organization evans sutherland computer corp , salt lake city , ut lines 4 rubber drain plugs carpet mazda glc leaked like ones spare probe put silicone put back
envmsa eas asu edu \( b b \) subject viper news software vax vms vnews 1 4 b1 organization arizona state university , tempe , az lines 10 article murdoch acc virginia edu , rmt6r faraday clas virginia edu \( roy matthew thigpen \) writes last night dream dad bought viper took test drive , without knowledge , push way home avoid ticket wierd dream , wonder means probably told dad buy car , dream might come true
rjwade rainbow ecn purdue edu \( robert j wade \) subject saturn 's pricing policy organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 22 article vela acs oakland edu mje pookie pass wayne edu writes ordered saturn sl1 considering imports frankly , saturn stuff deleted saturn also good extended warranty program 675 6 year 60k miles , fully refunded n't use works actual cost 170 , based 6 year treasury rates using savings account rates 's like 120 first three years also buys free rental warranty work , without counting refund mike general extended warranties ripoff 60k really 3yr 24k get 3yr 36k one free car also , perhaps deductible pay every time use warranty \? also , certain items excluded coverage extended warranty \? use year 4 60 buck job pay 50 used refund ever ! , extended warranties ripoff , high profit items dealer
daubendr nextwork rose hulman edu \( darren r daubenspeck \) subject plymouth sundance dodge shadow experiences \? organization computer science department rose hulman lines 12 distribution usa reply daubendr nextwork rose hulman edu \( darren r daubenspeck \) nntp posting host nextwork rose hulman edu pretty much junk , stay away replaced next year new models junk \? 've made c lists years due excellent handling acceleration around since , oh , 85 86 , 're newest lot , mileage five eight mpg class leader get 3 0 l v 6 \( 141 hp \) shadow 10 11k \( 4 turbo bit \) , droptop 14 15k
tvervaek col hp com \( tom vervaeke \) subject toyota land cruiser worth \? organization hp colorado springs division lines 20 nntp posting host cs itc hp com wife looked , drove one last fall 1992 model underpowered could imagine driving mountains colorado anything approaching highway speeds read new 1993 models newer , improved hp engine i'm quite serious laughed salesman face said 's broken feel powerful used driving jeep 4 0l engine believe 92 's land cruisers \( land \) 3 0l , 4runner , also underpowered \( personal opinion \) big cars , roomy , nothing spectacular \( \) \( \) tom vervaeke email tvervaek cs itc hp com hewlett packard co phone 719 590 love animals taste \( \) \( \)
davew cs umd edu \( david g wonnacott \) subject questions insurance companies \( esp geico \) distribution usa organization u maryland , dept computer science , coll pk , md 20742 lines 13 i'm considering switching geico insurance , heard assign specific agent policy claim worried might real pain make claim also heard try get rid accident i'm determining whether things true anyone geico made claim \? 'd interested hearing whether satisfied service whether trouble renewing policy i'm also interested good bad stories liberty mutual state farm
sergei morgan com \( sergei \) subject warning \( please read \) nntp posting host organization morgan stanley lines 19 mchaffee dcl nxt07 \( michael chaffee \) writes valued terms money human beings , submit human beings submissions made , e g regarding jews article 1993apr21 nuscc nus sg , matmcinn nuscc nus sg \( matthew macintyre national university senegal \) writes absolutely scratch car bothers death number scum feel way wo n't admit people going realise mere fact piece flesh moves approximate shape human mean rights \? dirty harry types , eager pull gun scum guilty scratching stupid painted metal boxes wheels ever killed human speak lightly matters \? sergei
mark luke cray com \( mark dean \) subject ford auto nntp posting host nntpd luke navo navy mil reply pops navo navy mil organization cray research lines 20 hello , name russell wong research project henry ford automobile need information whether ford partially responsible car accidents depletion ozone layer also , additional information greatly appreciated thanks would mr benz eh \? mr chevy , mr , mr \( insert car name \) dan reed cellar org eat pets poke eyes kill boss burn house move elmer nj rip nose hairs lead holder use x knives dental work hit mother people get life ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! md
mobasser vu vlsi ee vill edu \( bijan mobasseri \) subject renting alamo organization villanova university lines 14 'cause friend rented car last year turned needed lot insurance 's included base price hand n't rent alamo probability 'll needing insurance \? unless accident , wo n't need joe let see , unless accident , wo n't need , bijan
pandora sdsu edu \( john \) subject sport utility vehical comparisons \? opinions \? organization san diego state university , college sciences lines 18 distribution world nntp posting host pandora sdsu edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 karl elvis macrae \( kmac cisco com \) wrote i'm looking following three suv 's anyone 's driven three strong opinions \? ford explorer toyota 4runner nissan pathfinder well , position drove three liked three toss marginally went pathfinder based reliability looks n't think go wrong john pandora sdsu edu
organization central michigan university john foster cmuvm csv cmich edu subject changing oil self 1993apr15 colorado edu lines 38 drew kinglear cs colorado edu \( drew eckhardt \) article pod sour sw oz au pod sour sw oz au \( paul o'donnell \) wri 1qgi8einnhs5 skeena ucs ubc ca yiklam unixg ubc ca \( yik chong lam \) writes hello , anyone know take bolt engine compartment \? turn clockwise counter \? tried kind lubricants , wd 40 , etc , still failed ! think use electric drill \( change suitable bit \) turn \? succeed , tighten tight , safe without oil leak \? n't need power tools undo , electric drill probably wo n't give much extra torque anyway wd40 help things seized due rust unlikely drain plug able undo , probably become loose bash knuckles underside car price must pay work , 's price pay knowing use wrench want pull wrench towards , away painful splitting hard things ca n't pull things way , push open hand find method much better , , although really hate bolt finally comes loose wrench hand come crashing face coming , 15 minutes later , change clothes \( time oil drained \) , ice entire face suck 20 tylenol ease pain later day proceed engine oil 's crazy try change oil cars one weekend go 3 bottles tylenol 2 bags ice john
cs uah edu \( ken king \) subject \? \? ! ! reply uahcs2 uah edu \( ken king \) organization computer science dept univ alabama huntsville lines 36 article mentor cc purdue edu thwang mentor cc purdue edu \( tommy hwang \) writes sorry mis spelling , forgot spell series exams hand reference still possible get cute wwii vw jeep wanna 's \? replica would great think greetings may luck seem recall seeing blurb one kit car magazines company norway pulled \( sp \? \) real , adapted beetle suspension , remember vw thing used 3 suspension travel stock beetle , 'd heard market parts road use good better note major difference \( looks wise \) thing hood fenders external spare mounted hood , hood \( visibility \? \) sharply , rounded fenders thing lightly hood spare mounted inside \( unless moved make luggage space \) half shaped fenders \( imagine nut large enough put tire , cut bottom half \) unfortunately , n't info anymore try stopping local bookstore copying phone numbers two big mag 's calling might able get number \( n't forget calculate time difference norway calling \) later , kc quick bones , help get include \( \) ss ! std disclaimer h damn , jim , i'm \( \) cs uah edu \( \) doctor , ! \)
eliot stalfos engr washington edu \( eliot \) subject ultimate awd vehicles organization clearer blir lines 27 distribution usa nntp posting host 192 42 145 4 article cbnewsj cb att com rdb1 cbnewsj cb att com \( ronald j deblock jr \) writes yes , saw 200 turbo quattro wagon 287 nj monday thought audi stopped selling wagons us 5000 exactly type vehicle would like bet price 4 5 times car budget think ! ! thanks 60 minutes \( tick tick tick \) , used 200 bargains go 15k , go perhaps 1 2k , 20 valve 91 's quite bit enormous hp torque gain think go 23 25k find one seen quite lot '89 '90 200 \( many wagons though \) dealer lot use high quality paint entire car zinc galvanized , never rust short , typically 4 yr old 200 looks older 1 year old 5 bangers bullet proof engines 200k one rare , even turbo , aftermarket chips buy bump turbo boost luxo gizmos cars loaded everything price parts different story though eliot
mcostell oasys dt navy mil \( malcolm g costello \) subject dumbest automotive concepts time reply mcostell oasys dt navy mil \( malcolm g costello \) distribution usa organization carderock division , nswc , bethesda , md lines 25 x x fake convertible roofs vinyl roofs x gold trim x x , agree , abominations , right along fake x continental spare tire kit 's sad watching little old ladies x try load groceries trunk huge tire x way x pitiful fake convertible top cadillac , x chrome door trim still visible fooling anyone x course , hyundai excel saw x least think bad taste something new back early 1970s saw couple cars paint jobs thats typo think sprayed kind glue blew tiny pieces nylon comes looking like felt picture huge plymouth fury iii dark blue felt \? think even remember one guy red early 1960s corvette turned station wagon mack costello mcostell oasys dt navy mil code 65 1 \( formerly 1720 1 \) david taylor model basin , carderock division hq nswc bethesda , md 20084 5000 phone \( 301 \) 227 2431 \(
tsd arlut utexas edu \( bernie \) subject fast idle 88 ford ranger nntp posting host organization applied research labs , university texas austin lines 22 ljbartel naomi b23b ingr com \( les bartel \) writes morning , 88 ford ranger idling 10 , 000 rpm ok , exaggerated little , idling fast 2 liter engine , throttle would cause idle drop back normal \( n't think linkage stuck \) fix problem \? problem time time , straightened n't tach , sound engine , idling twice fast idling pulled stop light sometimes bad choke pull diaphram cause car fast idle pull , vacuum , provides necessary pull non cold weather conditions get idle fast idle cam locate fast idle cam vehicle see rotate produce normal idle , locate diaphram test ca n't apply suction \( via good piece rubber vacuum hose \) mouth cause diaphram retract , 's bad replaced bernie applied research labs
nataraja rtsg mot com \( kumaravel natarajan \) subject water trunk 89 probe \? \? nntp posting host opal12 organization motorola inc , cellular infrastructure group lines 39 jlong tamu edu \( james long \) writes article transfer stratus com tszeto sneezy ts stratus com \( tommy szeto \) writes water gradually builds trunk friend 's 89 ford probe every would remove spare scoop water plywood carpet cover trunk would guess usually happens good thunder storm qs 1 \) common problem \? 2 \) drain holes located hatch \? noticed '89 probe also , recently cleaning back think water coming rubber stoppered holes beneath spare mine looked slightly worn , water water damage level spare area taken low priority since found \( rotating tires \) torn cv boot ugh ! ! 've got 89 gt smoked assembly think water getting first got \( month \) , one rear taillights moisture took dealer replaced entire assembly happened one 3 months later time happened look spare tire well noticed water standing dealer reluctant time replace convinced fix \( must deal number probes problem \) n't noticed water \( trunk \) last 2 5 years , last month , i'm going try take back get fix i'm real tempted drill vent drain holes tops assembly forget getting annoying \( almost every gt 've seen problem \) vel vel natarajan nataraja rtsg mot com motorola cellular , arlington hts il
cbnewsc cb att com \( brian w \) subject 4x4 road rally joliet il organization distribution chi keywords april 25th lines 97 attention four wheel road enthusiasts road rally sunday , april 25th joliet illinois event joliet mud turtles , chicago land four wheel drive club , sponsoring road rally sunday april 25th ask road rally \? , well road rally consists following 1 road rally participants given set directions clues guiding participates around joliet area object navigate course based set directions clues participants given set questions pertaining course must answer along way points awarded number correct answers given directions ultimately lead road area four wheel drive course set various locations road course , check points set participants asked questions requested perform activity \( e g tire roll , truck tow , basketball free throw , etc \) additional points 2 optional road , four wheel drive course participants navigate road trails , mud hill points awarded successfully road obstacles without getting stuck get stuck \( half fun anyway \) , assistance get vehicle try road course divided based tire size , stock well modified run course end rally , trophies awarded top scoring participants door prizes dash plaques also given food drinks also available conclusion organized activity sponsored joliet mud turtles safety fun foremost concern must street legal solid tow points road section course n't want separate someone 's bumper vehicle \) particulars rally begins instant replay , road , joliet il \( 815 \) 436 \( see map \) registration 9 10 30 first truck 10 00 rally date sunday april 25th , rain shine entry fee 10 per truck must co driver \( passengers allowed \) valid drivers license required suggested equipment cb radio compass tow strap clip board pencil alcohol rally information contact gary \( 815 \) 727 tom \( 815 \) 485 norm jr \( 815 \) 741 brian \( 708 \) 979 instant replay 1 1 2 mi north exit 257 canton larkin farm ave rd 3 mi v exit
hacker cco caltech edu \( jonathan bruce hacker \) subject auto air conditioning without freon article gap distribution usa organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 39 nntp posting host sandman caltech edu markm bigfoot sps mot com \( mark monninger \) writes article 1993apr15 research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com \( chris behanna \) writes several chemists already come several substitutes r12 n't hear mobile air conditioning society \( macs \) , , people stand rake 300 1000 per retrofit per automobile , mounted organized campaign squash r12 substitutes existence ban altogether \( shaky technical grounds , best , outright lies worst \) , i'm saying 're wrong know r 12 substitutes exist , sounds lot like carbs oil companies keep us getting substitutes exist , time available future availability doubt 1 \) ghg 12 get people 's welding supply 800 382 2 \) butane propane mix one ever regulate away make sure use good quality \( dry \) gases n't know carb distributors \) jon hacker get os 2 2 1 march beta cd rom caltech , pasadena ca 20 call 1 800 3 ibm os2 hacker ridge caltech edu read comp os os2 beta
nuet ke pts mot com \( keith nuetzman x3153 p7625 \) subject wife wants convertible nntp posting host 145 4 54 110 reply nuet ke pts mot com organization paging wireless data group lines 9 help ! ! ! wife informed wants convertible next car live south fla , definitely right one wife mentioned miata , think small would like wait new mustangs \( dec '93 think \) anyone opinions convertibles reasonable price range thanx
cbnewsb cb att com \( vincent lai \) subject third party car antennas organization distribution na lines 32 since posting , 've received replies followups , i'm posting hoping feedback n't get rec audio car article number newsgroups rec audio car path cbfsb ! cbnewsb cb att com ! cbnewsb cb att com \( vincent lai \) subject third party car antennas message id 1993apr13 cbfsb cb att com sender news cbfsb cb att com organization distribution na date tue , 13 apr 1993 20 23 33 gmt recently saw particular third party antenna new camry \( mine , caught interest \) new 626 seems replace factory power antenna foot long made plastic tubing seen quite cars , ca n't find anything previous r c articles r articles 'd like know , feedback greatly appreciated mom , 're hungry ! bud bundy tell \? peg bundy vincent lai cbnewsb att com forwards mail attmail com eventually winds ! lai somerset att com
ak954 yfn ysu edu \( albion h bowers \) subject fast organization st elizabeth hospital , youngstown , oh lines 42 reply ak954 yfn ysu edu \( albion h bowers \) nntp posting host yfn ysu edu previous article , tedebear leland stanford edu \( theodore chen \) says article armory centerline com jimf centerline com \( jim frost \) writes compare either porsche 911 tell designed go fast point brakes , especially seeing mustang n't even disc brakes back significant differences latest late 80 's , least handling i'm think mean late biggest change porsche undertook alter baby way back august 1968 \( '69 model year \) stretched besides , people actually know take advantage oversteer , enjoy europe 911 got low marks high speed handling \( though fair , might comparing vette 's handling \) phil hill \( famous race car driver \) said seen phil hill \( world champion \) say vette 's 's driven 911 turbo \? ca n't make pig , awful fast pig yeah , said \) paul agreed prefered porsche \( modified ruf \) either vette 's test al bowers dod 900 alfa ducati hobie kottke 'blad iaido nasa well goodness sakes n't know girls ca n't play guitar \? mary chapin carpenter
chriss netcom com \( chris silvester \) subject sho sc organization netcom online communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 39 article 1993apr16 mksol dseg ti com moe dseg ti com \( robert \) writes article 28 constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu \( james p callison \) writes article 1993apr15 2261 ganglion ann arbor mi us david ganglion ann arbor mi us \( david hwang \) writes would willing bet removed automatic transmissions performance type cars \( like 5 0l mustangs , camaros , like \) 'd cut number accidents year autos fine little sedans , business performance cars , imho james disagree 92 z28 350 4 speed auto w overdrive , really better way chevy autos long life ability handle copious amount power live dallas area , manual would much harder drive traffic still lived sticks like used , manual would fun n't know 's much issue handle power power lose \( torque converter , etc \) safety wise , auto less distracting would hate shifting gears trying ease traffic freeways performance wise , hold stock 5 0 mustang 5 0 camaro w five speed however , encounter '93 formula 5 7l 6 speed manual , 'll sol , i'm afraid \) btw , know speak former owner 5 7l auto \( 1989 \) current owner aforementioned car chris chris silvester man capable getting elected president chriss sam com means allowed job chriss netcom com douglas adams , 's guide galaxy
sorlin magnus acs ohio state edu \( steven j orlin \) subject changing oil self nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university distribution usa lines 22 article mentor cc purdue edu marshatt feserve cc purdue edu \( za \) writes article 1qgi8einnhs5 skeena ucs ubc ca , yiklam unixg ubc ca \( yik chong lam \) writes hello , anyone know take bolt engine compartment \? turn clockwise counter \? tried kind lubricants , wd 40 , etc , still failed ! think use electric drill \( change suitable bit \) turn \? succeed , tighten tight , safe without oil leak \? thank much advance n't worry leaks n't worry way turn damn thing take good hammer pry straight , 'll notice , oil , used thats invented yes , buy gems , hole little larger time change oil hole gets big coil buy , time trade car
wrat unisql uucp \( wharfie \) subject fast organization unisql , inc , austin , texas , usa lines 22 article armory centerline com jimf centerline com \( jim frost \) writes light highways texas \? funny , everywhere else 've light 'em junctions texas pretty much edge case ca n't assume everywhere roads good condition , flat terrain , wide open spaces ai n't well , let 's see , personal experience 's nevada , new mexico , texas , wyoming , utah , south dakota , nebraska , minnesota , montana , florida , parts nobody said let 's go town drive 130 main st could n't go fast passes highway parts really expensive cars driven fast crap , , well , crap wr
marshatt feserve cc purdue edu \( zauberer \) subject 's rush \( fast \) organization purdue university distribution usa lines 28 remember roads america designed speeds 80 meaning would safe 55 65 roads like autobahn smoother , , wider slightly banked example months back traveling late night \( 3 00 \) changing highways bent curved south east becoming hidden trees 1 , 000 ft continued left strait north wanted turn north , checked south lane , rolled crossing checked north lane nevertheless n't car sight , took one last look pulled left hand lane car n't 5 sec 0 60 performer lane 40 decent time , even 3 00 n't wasting time checked mirror saw mustang closing lane fast , turned corner noticing saw changed lanes time , moving excess 90 , chance , moving way i'm glad saw brake lights time shudder think would happened pull left time needed dodge rule car 100 , way clear , n't assume stay way travis disclamer ideas expressed fact employer , since none \) e mail , flame , marshatt feserve cc purdue edu
thorn wam umd edu \( \) subject q dings paint hood \( nntp posting host rac3 wam umd edu organization workstations maryland , university maryland , college park distribution usa lines 21 hello , 92 toyota 4x4 last weeks getting quite dings \( paint hood rocks debris road never major problems car trucks past \( maybe ding \) went dealer said happens time putting bug hood said trucks , unknown reason , seem problem cars \? seems either luck really bad might problem paint \( painted monday morning perhaps \? \) well bug work small road debris trucks \? anyone experiences suggestions please let know , thanks greg thorn wam umd edu
schludermann sscvx1 ssc gov subject rfi art clutchless shifting lines 18 nntp posting host sscvx1 organization superconducting super collider laboratory i'm wondering anybody else clutchless shifter \? 've self 200 , 000 miles , current toyota truck 've got 150k 've heard people talk damage transmission experiences suggest otherwise techniques use \? old pieces junk drove , transmission worn pumping clutch way shift , except clutchless date 've driven rabbits , , comets , fords chevy harder others shift generally higher milage smoother quicker easier shift technique ease back throttle time gently wrist back shift lever reason miss shift window , lightly press accelerator try agian 've found clutchless shifting quicker high rpms \( 4000 7000 \) also skip gears times using 1 3 5 , 1 2 4 5 krispy
tekig5 pen tek com \( loke lim \) subject braindead drivers n't look ahead keywords bad drivers distribution usa organization tektronix , inc , beaverton , lines 33 article 1993apr14 cbnewsd cb att com hhm cbnewsd cb att com \( herschel h mayo \) writes anybody going anywhere , block would passers good , well even though often stupid realize ah , looking good people like concerned group citizens absolutely disgusted way majority drivers simply disobey traffic rules like going speed limit , passing right , riding tails , respectfully abide rules great country maintain mandated speed limits calibrated , certified cruise controls , keeping respectful 1 5 car length distance 10 mph speed many times ticked moron jumps ahead \( 5 5 1 5 \) 8 25 car lengths left vehicle ahead driving 55 mph \? finally option totally member supported group perform functions good , good great country unfortunate ones stupid realize , bless souls paltry 10 , join citizens rationally advanced \( c r p \) , non profit , members , society , , , slight hitch , initiation rite full fledged member exclusive club , must proof able fast lane interstate area , keep correct 1 5 car 10 mph know difficult morons around , let anybody pass , next lane , slow lane , breakdown lane , nowhere complete list acceptable interstates times , send 5 way , 90 members highly regarded attorneys auto field completely , absolutely positively business serve best interests testament virtues , give members 90 initial consultation fee feel free drop line earliest convenience remember , speed kills !
mani hi \( \) subject lois chevrolet \? distribution rec lines 7 nntp posting host hi history 500 day , early film , around 's , name , lois chevrolet , came blue wanted know chevrolet founder driver 's name called guy 's \? \)
ucs usl edu \( sira g \) subject help ! ! ! ! \( mercury capri query \) keywords gas mileage , high idling , , tune organization univ southwestern la , lafayette distribution usa lines 34 hi folks , recently bought 1981 mercury capri \( first car ever ! \) noticed problems car 1 gives low gas mileage \( something like 11 miles gallon hear car owners speak gas mileage figures like 25 miles gallon \( wow ! \) etc \) 2 start car , goes high idling \( something like 1500 \( \? \) rpm driving 4 5 miles , comes 300 \( 3000 \? \) rpm would like know way fix problems natural old car like \? \( done 117 , 000 miles \) someone suggested change rebuild prepared unless sure fix problem yes , got car tuned recently \( within last 200 miles \) please let know suggestions please respond email since n't scan newsgroup regularly thanks regards , sira email ucs usl edu one us one \? ask small minded men noble mind think entire world family
lynx dac northeastern edu \( scott r ehrlich \) subject help find stolen car organization northeastern university , boston , 02115 , usa distribution usa lines 25 offered relay information ham friend mine without internet access name robert \( bob \) , , car 1985 brown sierra sedan , massachusetts plate ht \( \) mobile antenna also included car stolen lynn , mass 10 days ago \( april 6 \) anyone information car 's whereabouts , please e mail thank taking time read message scott ehrlich internet wy1z world std com amateur radio wy1z packet radio wy1z usa na scott ehrlich internet wy1z world std com amateur radio wy1z packet radio wy1z usa na
ltd uhura cc rochester edu \( paul k \) subject subaru shop manuals sale nntp posting host uhura cc rochester edu organization university rochester rochester , new york lines 40 subaru service manuals 10 00 complete set , includes sections 4 , 5 6 cover mechanical components \( suspension , wheels , steering , brakes , control cables , heater ventilator , air conditioning \) , body \( body exterior , doors windows , seats , seat belts , interior , instrument panel \) , electrical \( engine electrical system , body electrical system , wiring diagram , trouble shooting \) genuine subaru issue manuals model year 1986 , plenty good information applies years well , long i'm posting \( end car stuff \) , miscellaneous darkroom equipment 75 00 solar enlarger \( several objective lenses \) timer , negative carriers 35mm 2 1 4 x 3 1 4 , misc printing masks developing tanks , thermometer , trays , constant temperature bath , ground glass , mirrors , darkroom lamps , , el cheap \( say \) much ! beautiful antique buffet 1500 00 solid cherry \( \) handmade , interesting corners drawers built \( think \) around covered simple , elegant piece furniture , big \( 60 long , 37 tall , 24 deep \) little cape cod house deliver items \( ie , 10 \) anywhere rochester area \( consider delivering others \) deliver campus graduation call e mail paul mary \( 716 \) 359 \( south rochester , ny \) ltd uhura cc rochester edu
shl com \( scott dexter \) subject isuzu opinions wanted organization shl inc lines 27 distribution usa nntp posting host shl com anyone netland one \? someone give non consumer reports review \( point source \) \? \? \? thanks scott ucrengr ucr edu computer science undergraduate , university california , riverside internet 138 23 166 21 shl com facilities engineer , shl , inc , technology network internet 192 75 61 2 say gonna happen exactly mean \? see 've already waited long , hope gone smiths
khalsa ncr com \( g k khalsa \) subject options would great reply g k khalsa sandiego ncr com organization ncr engineering manufacturing , san diego , ca lines 36 article acs ucalgary ca , parr acs ucalgary ca \( charles parr \) writes list options would useful existing options car , things 'd like 1 \) , great little gadget lets keep rough track mileage , makes good second gas gauge 2 \) full size spare 3 \) built power systems radar detectors 4 \) fitting allows generate household current engine running , plug ins trunk , engine compartment cabin feel free add ok 5 \) fuel gauge really told much fuel left like , make gas 1 14 get gouged right 1 35 \? accurate tenth gallon would great contract gk khalsa ncr engineering manufacturing 16550 w dr \( 619 \) 485 san diego , ca ! ! ! ! g k khalsa sandiego ncr com !
brandt cs unc edu \( andrew brandt \) subject 4runner pathfinder recent changes organization university north carolina chapel hill lines 9 nntp posting host axon cs unc edu keywords 4runner , pathfinder , change , update interested finding 4runner pathfinder updated past years like new engine , suspension like noticed 1993 1992 identical , example , looking buying used one info would appreciated , esp models years check avoid thx , andy \( brandt cs unc edu \)
oprsfnx gsusgi2 gsu edu \( stephen f nicholas \) subject plymouth sundance dodge shadow experiences \? organization georgia state university distribution usa lines 17 daubendr nextwork rose hulman edu \( darren r daubenspeck \) writes pretty much junk , stay away replaced next year new models junk \? 've made c lists years due excellent handling acceleration around since , oh , 85 86 , 're newest lot , mileage five eight mpg class leader get 3 0 l v 6 \( 141 hp \) shadow 10 11k \( 4 turbo bit \) , droptop 14 15k ex fleet mgr 3000 cars , amoung trouble free models bought one wife
rwf2 ns1 cc lehigh edu \( robert william fusi \) subject best radar detector \? \? \? organization lehigh university lines 38 article 1993apr10 808 lrc edu , burnside br lrc edu writes article 1993apr6 com , com \( deepak \) writes mubashir cheema n't buy one , best way avoid tickets , used one whenever cop would pull , see thing , give ticket one time sister driving , glove compartment , broken , got ticket 1987 , received 4 tickets , one sister \( total five \) five years ago , n't one gotten ticket driving habits changed drastically two days ago going 77 mph highway 55 mph limit , cop saw , break little , nothing happened \( driving mini van , family \) otherwise , supreme , 70 times highway basically opnion get one , get pulled , cop hear excuse , radar , \( , get remote model visible cop , sure get front rear sensors also put detector side dash cop n't see right away valentine best detector far \( stated car driver \) even tells direction radar coming also gives amount threats picking , go place everyday , always goes , glance number threats valentine detecting see genuine cop 's 300 get factory direct one problem rob fusi rwf2 lehigh edu
smith ctron com \( lawrence c smith \) subject mr2 noisy engine organization cabletron systems , inc lines 16 distribution world reply smith ctron com nntp posting host ctron com article engr washington edu , eliot lanmola engr washington edu \( eliot \) writes noise really bugs , nothing else except sell get v6 perhaps nice used '88 pontiac gt \? 2 8 liters anyone know motor mounts 2 8 twin dual cam 3 4 liter match \? 3 4 supposedly derived 3 1 , punched 2 8 liter drop replacement , eh \? 205 horses mid engine size \? larry smith \( smith ctron com \) , n't speak cabletron need ask \? liberty freedom whatever want , freedom whatever able
rwf2 ns1 cc lehigh edu \( robert william fusi \) subject bang 13k organization lehigh university lines 32 article 74 uupcb cutting hou tx us , david bonds cutting hou tx us \( da vid bonds \) writes rec autos , cpkjp vm cc latech edu \( kevin parker \) writes 'd like get feedback car bang buck 13000 16 , 000 price range i'm looking car enough civility driven every day , even long trips , hit gas , want fee l take look '91 taurus sho found 13k , ultimate 4 door sports cars performance similar mustang , quite civil comfortable try get late model 91 better shifter cutting edge bbs \( cutting hou tx us \) pcboard 14 5a system houston , texas , usa 1 713 466 1525 running uupcb well , could always go 5 0 mustang lx pleasant v8 , diamond star cars \( talon eclipse laser \) put 190 hp turbo models , 195 hp awd turbo models , cars also handling match muscle , civil regular driving conditions , rather harsh , stiff ride awd turbo clearly better choice two \( torque steer front drive model \) , may go leftover slightly used model price range tough decision rob fusi rwf2 lehigh edu
sanity waterloo ca \( george \) organization bbs cambridge , ontario , canada subject birds physics majors \? reply sanity waterloo ca x software hermes gus 1 04 rev sep 5 1992 lines 28 darkside osrhe uoknor edu , operator writes crazy question anyone ever wonder birds drop load car going 65 mph \? took non stop trip , got four times \( every time hitting windshield , even open sunroof ! guess birds \) going 75 mph used '67 convertible , sitting light waiting turn green turned green , little \( sleeping guess \) bird bombed , landed directly front eye level , guess bird miscalculated thought going take right away i'm still trying figure one got rear bumper well \? ! \? ! \? ! bird flying fancy car decided drop one executing perfect loop \? \? '87 mustang gt george pioneer , audio control sanity waterloo ca phoenix gold , kicker , cambridge , ontario , canada r
batman bmd trw com subject syclone typhoon owners \? lines 4 want start list syclone typhoon owners interested participating , please contact via e mail merrill
cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu \( oriolefan uiuc \) subject wife wants convertible organization university illinois urbana lines 25 nuet ke pts mot com \( keith nuetzman x3153 p7625 \) writes help ! ! ! wife informed wants convertible next car live south fla , definitely right one wife mentioned miata , think small would like wait new mustangs \( dec '93 think \) anyone opinions convertibles reasonable price range thanx olds supreme convertible got high marks c 's recent test , get stupid body stuff saab 900 may range , good choice new f car convertible \? nissan 240sx convertible nice car also immediately come mind chintan amin university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu neil peart , \( c \) 1981 quick judge , quick anger , slow understand , ignorance prejudice fear walk hand hand
jkjec westminster ac uk \( shazad barlas \) subject manual shift bigots wanted organization university westminster lines 7 best auto shifters street \( track \) porsche wont change floor gas turn years back 200sx auto \( guys call 240sx without turbo \) going round corner next thing know pointing backwards ! drivers seemed quite amused \) shaz
jkjec westminster ac uk \( shazad barlas \) subject improvements automatic transmissions organization university westminster lines 5 wanted know auto , keep gear n gas stick gear 've never tried sure works screw \? 're bit debate
jkjec westminster ac uk \( shazad barlas \) subject dumbest automotive concepts time organization university westminster distribution usa lines 8 dumbest options \? well uk , bmw offer 'no option means take fag lighter big deal btw bought honda crx f1 neat consider mr2 targa , mx5 \( guys call miata \? \) crx one heart body kit 8 spokes ps richard somewhere \?
rhorwell crab network \( roland , crab \) subject dumbest automotive concepts tim reply rhorwell atc boeing com organization boeing computer services lines 19 article idaho amdahl com , idaho amdahl com \( bob smith \) writes article 1993apr7 cas org , cas org \( \) writes imho , dumbest thing ever copying japanese moving dimmer switch floor lever controlling turn signal cruise control warmer , etc well , 1973 porsche dimmer turn signal stalk guess dumb germans copying japanese \) rest deleted mention friend 's citroen traction avant light switch dimmer integrated single stalk steering column ! dumb french apparently copying japanese germans ! \) roland
rhorwell crab atc boeing com \( roland , crab \) subject volvo \? reply rhorwell atc boeing com organization boeing computer services lines 46 article raleigh ibm com , vnet ibm com \( mark perry \) writes hardly good reason , us cars plenty people buy \( us anyway \) think 850 quite good looking car unlike us influenced 740 ! kevinh hasler ascom ch n't think 's easy tell 850 7 9 series unless look real close really think volvo 's dogs though beacuse 1 agricultural previous volvos essentially fast , 3 , 4 8 series far design execution \( many fwd seen \? \) 2 thou advertising state like bad thing \) \( remember , car companies use ad agencies n't ads ! \) 3 part renault true \? know done joint ventures renault , n't heard renault mean french government owns volvo \? anyway , renault makes nice cars , n't sell 'em n america ! however one thing think favour immediately volvo something say japanese manufacturers ford saab also strong look like thing car makers could aim make life little varied ! ! vnet ibm com roland rhorwell atc boeing com
eliot lanmola engr washington edu \( eliot \) subject manual shift bigots organization clearer blir lines 34 nntp posting host lanmola engr washington edu article news rich bnr ca peon w email \( eric youngblood \) writes article vela acs oakland edu , mje pookie pass wayne edu \( michael j edelman \) writes big disadvantage automatics 10 hp consume never gets wheels respect disadvantage manual torque converter locked autos converter lock 2nd , 3rd 4th gears dont forget new 6 speed manual available drive train optimally geared get engine rare 5 speed autos real bottom line manuals automatics vastly improved think automatics advanced far manuals especially shift intelligence say smart automatic better majority drivers terms right gear right time , important torque converter losses prefer stick fun auto traffic says ca n't cake eat \? well designed shifter easily facilitate manual , clutchless shifts referring much copied mercedes jagged gate department lose number ratios available , course converter losses drive fully automatic transmission , ca n't half bad \) eliot
matmcinn nuscc nus sg \( matthew macintyre national university senegal \) subject warning \( please read \) organization national university singapore x newsreader tin 1 1 pl4 lines 9 callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu \( james p callison \) writes i'm going argue issue carrying weapons , would ask would thought seriously shooting kid setting alarm \? think worse things world glad got anything give reason fire gun think people right kill defend property \? honest really care scum car \?
tedebear leland stanford edu \( theodore chen \) subject sho sc organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa lines 16 article 28 constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu \( james p callison \) writes anyone would order sho automatic transmission beyond ca n't handle stick , stick regular taurus leave sho real drivers say n't real drivers ca n't use stick \( eg disabled persons \) , n't position use sho anyway actually , disabled persons known drive races 'd careful making sweeping generalizations 'd prefer manual transmission , early sho awful transmission felt like came truck something almost enough make want automatic teddy
boyle cactus org \( craig boyle \) subject fast article cactus 1993apr17 organization capital area central texas unix society , austin , tx lines 63 article armory centerline com jimf centerline com \( jim frost \) writes boyle cactus org \( craig boyle \) writes quality autobahns something myth road surface n't much different typical tx freeway better terms lighting , safety , signs , etc light highways texas \? funny , everywhere else 've light 'em junctions sorry , meant autobahns , us freeways wo n't even get much road markings vary states localities except say areas markings essentially roads dip asphalt test shocks 60 kill 130 n't get wrong , love would quite severe n't recall us freeway , without road damage warnings , would regard unsafe 130 decent , well damped car suspect limited experience us freeways vary dramatically , particularly states name number interstate highways various parts country 130 would optimistic car well , 've driven every state alaska , drive 60k per year take long cross country trips chance get fun get job allows drive rather fly labor point , 've driven every us , germany , uk france plus mexico , good i'm sure call quite severe terms road deviations suspect every single bridge junction ct would considered 're hard take 85mph 's interstate 've seen deviations , 's one drive frequently yes , age total freeway us \? case mark hazard , advising people slow 85 texas pretty much edge case ca n't assume everywhere roads good condition , flat terrain , texas freeways varied , sometimes good surface mostly flat , i5 ca comparable wide open spaces ai n't given absence traffic car built 130 \( e g 535 \) us freeways fine problem road users cops jim frost jimf centerline com craig
boyle cactus org \( craig boyle \) subject plymouth sundance dodge shadow experiences \? article cactus 1993apr17 distribution usa organization capital area central texas unix society , austin , tx lines 13 article oprsfnx gsusgi1 gsu edu oprsfnx gsusgi2 gsu edu \( stephen f nicholas \) writes stuff dodge shadow deleted ex fleet mgr 3000 cars , amoung trouble free models bought one wife mean models , models cars , chrysler models , models fleet manager bought \? way hell shadow reliable car models sold , even chrysler 's dept lies , damned lies statistics would claim craig
tedebear leland stanford edu \( theodore chen \) subject ultimate awd vehicles organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa distribution usa lines 7 article apr16 engr washington edu eliot stalfos engr washington edu \( eliot \) writes price parts different story though say 23 new thermostat sound \? teddy
pi iastate edu \( dave \) subject 400 big block keywords 400 big block article news lnb organization engineering animation , inc lines 9 subject says 70k brother law wants 250 please n't reply posting 's numbers 5pm 10pm 712 676 daytime 712 269 dave iastate edu
gaia carson u washington edu \( gaia \) subject plymouth sundance dodge shadow experiences \? organization university washington , seattle lines 115 distribution usa nntp posting host carson u washington edu article oprsfnx gsusgi1 gsu edu oprsfnx gsusgi2 gsu edu \( stephen f nicholas \) writes daubendr nextwork rose hulman edu \( darren r daubenspeck \) writes pretty much junk , stay away replaced next year new models junk \? 've made c lists years due excellent handling acceleration around since , oh , 85 86 , 're newest lot , mileage five eight mpg class leader get 3 0 l v 6 \( 141 hp \) shadow 10 11k \( 4 turbo bit \) , droptop 14 15k ex fleet mgr 3000 cars , amoung trouble free models bought one wife thank playing , cannot agree believed put nicely , piece junk ! loved car , , pampered , 2 years , could n't stay together , would say everyone problems , know , 's car , ability get car fixed , happen chrysler dodge take pick dealer n't care going reform dealers service intro lh cars , believe see case point , local dodge dealer drive , looking , n't even get door , 10 \( yes 10 \) salesman eye like next meal , literally , try get make deal , everything eye towards service 2 times worse alignment problem , tried tell k frame bent , 2000 dollars work parts fix let tell problems , took care car , put alot miles first couple years , took every needed , many n't 1988 dodge shadow es replaced within 4 years owned car engine 4 alternators rear suspension bar 2 water pumps 5 hall effect sensor main computer 4 batteries rebuilt repaired radiator automatic transmission power steering things remember top head year sold car , said , 's good car , ca n't find anybody competent enough fix end , traded saturn , power steering started acting stopped putting money must put least 5000 7000 worth repairs 's lifetime sorry lee bite bullshit , whoever backs em best , afraid stupid things going fall apart , one buy without assurance , hell think lh last hope better , know people disagree , japanese , like honda , toyota , american car company feel quality product , saturn touch another chrysler product , way n't care good lh cars look good , admit look promising , support get gm n't much better , thank god , n't control saturn , like divisions , would another marketing ploy n't get wrong , watching car \( like \) like hawk next 4 years much hesitant say \( \) car really good , proved since someone else pointed c source note , used read magazines , car driver never good thing say chrysler products \( shadow one \) , always k car , engine whereas motor trend always thought great cars car magazine really objective although alot people n't like consumers reports , use reinforce argument \( already know big stink saturn crash tests , time tell good car \) , shadow sundance rate much worse average , fact none chrysler 's rate better average , think best one average excluding diamond star mitsubishi stuff lh 's find bad stuff shadow try might , researched saturn , could find anything bad great deal information company , new american company created quite stir automotive community , good reason much introduction new model lines established company read article , sub column , think anything else big wig toyota said quote , watching closely come , everybody grow , foreign cars , especially japanese kicking butts , good reason , american car companies could make good product support customer way want days , set ways , one reasons saturn created still struggling n't learned yet ability , workers inferior , technology date , attitude , finding 's called competition gentleman women n't satisfy demand consumer , well asbestos suit gaia
lovall bohr physics purdue edu \( daniel l lovall \) subject buick heater controls summary air vents n't work 71 distribution usa organization purdue university physics department lines 31 '71 buick bought california , 'll let , 'd like keep another year problem indiana winters heater controls n't work car vacuum operated control switches vents right stuck vent mode blow warm air , ca n't switch air flow either floor \( live without \) \( ca n't live without \) probably could jam air position , blows lot air face , well , kind like putting vacuum cleaner reverse taken parts dash looked vacuum system think problem \( part \) two control outside inside air flow diaphragm controls outside \( vent \) side \( vent \) air cracked way around , one probably damaged , considering advanced age car two questions 1 \) anything aware \( fact move indiana \) \? 2 \) event replacement n't available , way fix \? thanks advice info , dan lovall physics purdue edu
george howell goucher wb3ffv ampr org \( george howell \) subject impala ss going distribution world organization goucher college , towson , md reply george howell goucher wb3ffv ampr org \( george howell \) lines 9 mean 're gonna bring back bel air \? 210 \? george howell goucher wb3ffv ampr org george
jmiller network com \( jeff j miller \) subject need info porsche 914 's nntp posting host brew reply jmiller network com organization network systems corporation lines 43 article midway uchicago edu , quads uchicago edu \( len \) writes hi , 've recently idea purchasing old 914 going rate seems 4000 cars anywhere 40 mi question expect price \? expect extensive body work done \? engine transmission likewise expect virtually replaced \? along lines , anyone names addresses mail order parts suppliers everything engine body parts \? i'm completely new area restoring cars , n't actually work cars , work would professionally done sould expect cost upgrading 914 rust free , mechanically sound automobile \? thanks advance , andre true 914 enthusiasts able give better answer 'll dump impressions 've wanted 914 10 years came close ended buying instead \( biggest mistake life ! \) anyway , 4000 able get nice car also set price range get taken nice pile shit common total failure car would frame rust engine passenger compartment also look chassis welded together oh yeah , price range talking must 4 banger 6 \( could find one \) would mucho bucks parts engine pretty easy come \( old car \) even locate crude jc whitney catalog machine pretty simple \( use spare tire washer instead pump fer chris sake ! \) getting fixed good bug porsche mechanic would easy since mid engine may spend labor mechanical work jeff miller network systems corporation group boone avenue north jmiller network com minneapolis mn \( 612 \) 424
erich lim yob sccsi com \( erich lim \) subject militech distribution world organization ye olde bailey bbs houston , tx 713 520 1569 reply erich lim yob sccsi com \( erich lim \) lines 22 jchen wind bellcore com \( jason chen \) writes saw interesting product ny auto show , would like hear comments militech \( tm \) yet another oil additive demonstration product really impressive , n't cheat well , heard militech stuff works pretty good one friends races sanctioned events stuff got militech stuff early trial thing , put crx says worked great , n't ask details erich erich lim yob sccsi com ye olde bailey bbs 713 520 1569 \( v 32bis \) 713 520 9566 \( v 32bis \) houston , texas yob sccsi com home alt cosuard
scott skidmore edu \( lost \) subject honda new car info organization skidmore , somewhere reality lines 38 kay honda 's helpful hints honda sheet \( given new owners honda vehicles \) burning smell may evident new car shortly taking delivery fire extinguisher prelude temperatures 32 degrees push accelerator pedal floor one time , release slowly , foot accelerator , crank engine starts moe 5 seconds ! ! ! ! ! ! ! note cranking may required temperatures 32 degrees accelerator depressed 2 3 times door panels interior trim damaged getting caught closing doors shifting accord automatic transmissions park neutral , reverse drive transmission shifts 3rd gear case towing 1 start engine 2 shift drive park , drive neutral 3 turn engine getting towed b c engine wo n't run \? engine run use procedure ! phew , worried ! insert smilies appropriate , though real jonathan scott skidmore edu skidmore college , saratoga ny 93 civic si aftermarket \( one , understand ! \)
kocrsv01 delcoelect com \( thomas redmond \) subject 6700 hail damage record \? originator organization delco electronics corp distribution usa lines 34 article 1993apr21 cactus org , boyle cactus org \( craig boyle \) writes article 1993apr20 pencom com stecz pencom com writes article 1993apr19 cactus org boyle cactus org \( craig boyle \) writes 90 integra hit hard 3 25 hailstorm austin , tx insurance company cut check 6600 \( 100 deductible \) last week record \? anybody else settlements hailstorm yet \? craig rumor guy dell computer miata totalled , would 10k guess either top , hail ripped top , could 10k worth hail damage miata body craig john stecz pencom com constitution grants right life , liberty , pursuit happiness attempt guarantee everyone happy volvo owner 3000 dollars worth improvements looks car hail \)
klf druwa att com \( franklinkl \) subject warning \( please read \) summary careful concealed weapons ! ! ! lines 45 article constellation ecn uoknor edu , callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu \( james p callison \) writes article 1993apr19 magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu \( brian j queiser \) writes anything n't emptied gun asshole texas 's whole country reminds one texas 's ads hear guy speaking french \( like 's letter home \) , french moves background , french accented voice come foreground , talking went walking beach , felt much like home decided take shoes rest clothes ended please send bail \) rec autos note , anyone carry gun keep one car \( bad idea , n't \? \) work bad part town \( regularly go one \) \? loaded question \? \) normally unloaded colt delta glove box loaded magazine handy \( perfectly legal oklahoma \) times i'm travelling inter state , keep unloaded w 44 magnum revolver glove box , speed loader pocket \( legal everywhere , federal law , illinois state police hanged \) 've said , defense insurance pay replace car , one life james carrying pistol , loaded unloaded , glove compartment , considered carrying concealed weapon colorado illegal without concealed weapons permit unless law changed recently , carrying weapon openly legal colorado concealing illegal read newspaper account last year police stopped car traffic observed 357 magnum revolver sitting seat driver could cited possessing carrying weapon concealed article stated gun discovered glove box , would considered crime ken franklin say 's heaven people wait ama say 's better say ai n't gwrra 'd rather laugh sinners cry saints dod 0126 sinners lots fun , y'know good die young
mit edu \( henry \) subject sunroof leaks i'm wet organization mit lines 8 nntp posting host mit edu sunroof leaks 've always thought things royal pain anyone provide insight \? know seal n't great maybe could weld stupid thing shut hk
rpi edu \( brian c \) subject manual shift bigots nntp posting host rpi edu reply rpi edu organization rensselaer polytechnic institute , troy , ny lines 10 prefer manual automatic believe automatics manufactured people physical otherwise would able drive automatic transmissions allow drivers lazy time available fiddle radio look scenery instead concentrating road manual transmission keeps drive always something , granted n't large movement plus , driving fun ! driving manual fun , driving automatic case shift speed , automatics made shift far faster human could move stick racing , 'd want automatic normal driving go manual
raman translab uci edu \( balaji v ramanathan \) subject plymouth sundance dodge shadow experiences \? nntp posting host translab uci edu organization university california , irvine lines 23 distribution usa article shelley u washington edu gaia carson u washington edu \( gaia \) writes stopped putting money must put least 5000 7000 worth repairs 's lifetime sorry lee bite bullshit , whoever backs em best , afraid stupid things area part spending 5000 7000 repairs reminds article read magazine comparing 5 year ownership costs toyota camry ford taurus something like result , announced great flourish cost end period argument prove n't go wrong buying ford taurus camry , remember correctly , camry costs 4000 initial costs essentially , means spend 4000 extra repairs taurus ridiculous every time car needs repairs , extra hassles , loss time dozen things would much rather spend 5000 initial costs spend 4000 repair costs 8 cut signature ! 8 balaji ramanathan , institute transportation studies , n't believe luck ! university california , irvine rely ! !
ingres com \( doug \) subject two cars chevy nova cl \( '87 \) dodge 600 se \( '87 \) news software vax vms vnews 1 4 b1 keywords chevy nova dodge organization ask computer systems , ingres product division lines 29 see , two 1987 cars , worth 3000 problem maintenance costs two cars running 4000 per year insurance 3000 per year wrong \? within last two months , follows costs occured dodge 600 se \( dodge 's attempt american german car ! \) 1 , 000 replace head gasket 300 new radiator chevy nova cl \( chevy 's attempt japan import ! \) 500 tune , oil change , valve gasket , middle exhaust pipe , misc note also chevy nova cl \( 1987 \) 70 ! anyone chevy nova enough power get even small hill without knocking \? something wrong car , even use 93 octane gas ! \( consider going 110 octane find ! \) anyway , best maintenance items , equipment needed \? thanks , doug \( 2 car doug wayne , nj \)
zorro picasso ocis temple edu \( john \) subject taurus sable rotor recall organization temple university lines 23 nntp posting host picasso ocis temple edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 antonio l balsamo \( save wails \) \( balsamo stargl enet dec com \) wrote vm cc latech edu subject taurus sable rotor recall '92 taurus gl clock also rotor warp apparently fixed problem yet try convincing ford service person fix free right ! ! ! tony , heard many horror stories taurus sable cars ! thought premium american automobiles way sell , 'd think ford really better late '70s turning tin cans like \? would get , taurus camry accord \? john zorro picasso ocis temple edu zorro astro ocis temple edu
rwf2 ns1 cc lehigh edu \( robert william fusi \) subject i'm getting car , need opinions organization lehigh university lines 19 article 1993apr17 ns1 cc lehigh edu , ip02 ns1 cc lehigh edu \( phornprapha \) writes 30 , 000 budget i'm looking sports gt car think would best buy \? \( i'm looking specific models \) thanks , danny 'd say rx 7 would right could easily deal 30 impressive performance figures around , automotive magazines eat one car seriously consider price range rob fusi rwf2 lehigh edu
cf947 cleveland freenet edu \( chun hung wan \) subject i'm getting car , need opinions organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 32 reply cf947 cleveland freenet edu \( chun hung wan \) nntp posting host thor ins cwru edu previous article , ip02 ns1 cc lehigh edu \( danny phornprapha \) says 30 , 000 budget i'm looking sports gt car think would best buy \? \( i'm looking specific models \) thanks , danny hey ! programmers ! danny phornprapha please consider ip02 lehigh edu bugs another endangered earth student konsultant species needing protection work \( 215 \) 758 sports car , 'd go rx 7 without sports suspension \( stiff \) little practicality comfort , nissan 300zx turbo good buy good dose luxury , lexus sc300 perfect \( manual transmission course \) however , toyota supra coming soon like 's looks , performance supposed great , almost race car like n't particulary like mitsubishi 's dodge heavy n't nimble handlers sports car motion picture major brooks institute photography , ca santa barbara foreign student kuala lumpur , malaysia mind forerunner states
brother mrcnext cso uiuc edu \( jesse \) subject 's rust beamer ! help ! organization university illinois urbana lines 16 actually n't surprised , since bought rust got ideas getting rid cheaply \( key word \) \? \? eaten way door panels use \? also , good paint bond aluminum rims \? paint rims , actually , 's rust looking rims comes pretty easily one thing done self painting car \? start \? need \? please help ! jesse
mchaffee dcl nxt07 \( michael chaffee \) subject compact lh sedans \? organization university illinois urbana lines 33 cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu \( carolinafan uiuc \) writes shoppa caltech edu \( tim shoppa \) writes thought v 10 originally designed truck \( necessarily pickup ! \) sort dropped viper 's frame fit available friend mine saw \( heard \) viper , friend 's first response sounded like truck ! sounded fine , , n't like noise modern sports car engines make btw , viper saw moving , like cars 10 freeway heading east la friday afternoon looked really nice , though actually , impression v 10 viper v 10 dodge developing new always thought exhaust system engine produced noise car \? well , yes , exhaust majority noise comes , basics \( tone , firing cadence , etc \) determined engine configuration case viper , yes , discussing huge 90 deg engine , sound somewhat like truck understanding , btw , v 10 engine designed originally intention ad either trucks viper 've heard \( first hand knowledge \( \) 's pretty good job best exhaust sound world always 60 degree dohc colombo designed v 12 period michael chaffee mchaffee ux4 cso uiuc edu email mchaffee sumter cso uiuc edu nextmail sig construction excuse
chemical watstar uwaterloo ca \( \) subject advice used car \? lines 11 organization university waterloo hi , looking helpful advice i'm university student 7000 spend , i'm looking used car anyone useful advice could offer first time buyer \? i'm looking anything sporty , something functional reliable \( less maintenance costs \) anybody ideas models might suit \? thanks
tedebear leland stanford edu \( theodore chen \) subject plymouth sundance dodge shadow experiences \? organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa distribution usa lines 19 article news service uci edu raman translab uci edu \( balaji v ramanathan \) writes part spending 5000 7000 repairs reminds article read magazine comparing 5 year ownership costs toyota camry ford taurus something like result , announced great flourish cost end period argument prove n't go wrong buying ford taurus camry , remember correctly , camry costs 4000 initial costs essentially , means spend 4000 extra repairs taurus ridiculous every time car needs repairs , extra hassles , loss time dozen things would much rather spend 5000 initial costs spend 4000 repair costs account \? seriously doubt taurus would rack extra 4000 repair costs 5 years teddy
aas7 po cwru edu \( andrew spencer \) subject wife wants convertible organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 17 reply aas7 po cwru edu \( andrew spencer \) nntp posting host slc5 ins cwru edu previous article , nuet ke pts mot com \( keith nuetzman x3153 p7625 \) says help ! ! ! wife informed wants convertible next car live south fla , definitely right one wife mentioned miata , think small would like wait new mustangs \( dec '93 think \) anyone opinions convertibles reasonable price range thanx geo metro lsi \) drew
aas7 po cwru edu \( andrew spencer \) subject fast organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 53 reply aas7 po cwru edu \( andrew spencer \) nntp posting host slc5 ins cwru edu previous article , callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu \( james p callison \) says article usenet ins cwru edu aas7 po cwru edu \( andrew spencer \) writes previous article , wrat unisql uucp \( wharfie \) says article 1qkon8 3re armory centerline com jimf centerline com \( jim frost \) writes larger engine 's sho slightly modified family sedan powerful engine n't even bother improving brakes shows much know anything brakes sho different 9 inch \( 9 5 \? forget \) discs around , vented front normal taurus setup \( smaller \) discs front , drums rear one saw vented rears lot course , sales man fool titanium wheels yeah , right later told magnesium believable , still crap , since al cheaper , good tend agree , tho still n't take sho standard running 130 regular basis brakes bigger , like 11 take look ones \( braking regulations \) well , let 's see bird sc computer controlled adjustable suspension , 4 wheel abs disks \( 11 vented front , 10 \( \? \) rear \) , 3 point belts , sturdy passenger compartment , aerodynamics good enough without much change , 210 hp 310 ft lb supercharged 3 8l v6 , 4 wheel independent suspension \( plus limited slip differential \) , top speed excess 130mph , rides v rated tires \( yet find 225 60 speed rating \) standard \? , \? james james , really hate , try reading damn posts ! never mentioned discussion sho 's spec know know specs quoted sho previous poster sounded little anemic say snuff way wishing one , make bad car merely means think ford could added extra bit safety tossed larger brakes , wheels plenty large enough fit \( memory serves right , may well \) motor plenty powerful enough need c ya drew
mchaffee dcl nxt07 \( michael chaffee \) subject warning \( please read \) organization university illinois urbana lines 35 matmcinn nuscc nus sg \( matthew macintyre national university senegal \) writes callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu \( james p callison \) writes i'm going argue issue carrying weapons , would ask would thought seriously shooting kid setting alarm \? think worse things world glad got anything give reason fire gun think people right kill defend property \? honest really care scum car \? ca n't tell matt sarcastic , honest , many automobiles worth far owners \( value investment \) people would take n't figures average property tax u much allocated housing projects , inferior public schools , , like , feeling amount government steals honest , productive citizen breed trash significantly less value many automobiles argue animals stealing cars everything else \( mention committing completely senseless acts violence , rape \) cannot valued terms money human beings , submit human beings jim callison , think , right track chintan amin remarked earlier cannot blame environment actions single criminal could n't agree one could trace crime back environment upbringing criminal let , rapists inside traders , n't fault \? one draw line \? 0 02 michael chaffee mchaffee ux4 cso uiuc edu email mchaffee sumter cso uiuc edu nextmail sig construction excuse
mchaffee dcl nxt07 \( michael chaffee \) subject viper organization university illinois urbana lines 14 rmt6r faraday clas virginia edu \( roy matthew thigpen \) writes last night dream dad bought viper took test drive , without knowledge , push way home avoid ticket wierd dream , wonder means let 's see der passenger seat \? der room , \? \( feeling tad bit freudian , doubtless inspired ness \( word \) viper \)
callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu \( james p callison \) subject warning \( please read \) nntp posting host uokmax ecn uoknor edu organization engineering computer network , university oklahoma , norman , ok , usa lines 32 article 1993apr17 nuscc nus sg matmcinn nuscc nus sg \( matthew macintyre national university senegal \) writes callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu \( james p callison \) writes i'm going argue issue carrying weapons , would ask would thought seriously shooting kid setting alarm \? think worse things world glad got anything give reason fire gun think people right kill defend property \? honest really care scum car \? yo ! watch attributions n't say ! , n't appropriate forum discussions whether shoot someone property damage vandalism theft , every responsible gun owner realizes limits , punishment must fit crime mean , think \( really \) harmless worth killing \? said , situation described \( setting alarms taunting people come \) could turn ugly quickly , worth prepared life potentially line james james p callison microcomputer coordinator , u oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer i'm engineer , play one work forecast calls thunder '89 bird sc 's hell thing , killing man take away 's ever gonna munny , unforgiven
mchaffee dcl nxt07 \( michael chaffee \) subject manual shift bigots organization university illinois urbana lines 21 eliot lanmola engr washington edu \( eliot \) writes article news rich bnr ca peon w email \( eric youngblood \) writes article vela acs oakland edu , mje pookie pass wayne edu \( michael j edelman \) writes big disadvantage automatics 10 hp consume never gets wheels respect disadvantage manual torque converter locked autos converter lock 2nd , 3rd 4th gears w r performance , converter lockup purely irrelevant lockup occurs light throttle settings serves improve mpg mind , converter clutch lovely job improving mpg , additional mechanical advantage converter gives acceleration \( vs locked converter clutch \) inherent losses take away michael chaffee mchaffee ux4 cso uiuc edu email mchaffee sumter cso uiuc edu nextmail sig construction excuse
bbn com \( george yu \) subject \? \? ! ! lines 43 nntp posting host bbn com thwang mentor cc purdue edu \( tommy hwang \) writes sorry mis spelling , forgot spell series exams hand reference still possible get cute wwii vw jeep wanna 's \? replica would great think '93 according complete guide specialty cars , 7th edition , crown publishing , 's vw \( w 2 dots \) company p box , vika oslo 1 , norway 011 47 30 voice line 011 47 2 fax line excerpt blurb fine clone close copy original , offers weather cross country capabilities wwii robust fiberglass body kit complete , includes hardware need , except vw donor car phone number entire dialing sequence call ask karl , send 5 cash international money order complete literature package george p , 'd happy share info kit cars kit car manufacturers p p , i'm looking used partially completed porsche 356 convertible replica 'd appreciate leads advice stories owners
henson cc wwu edu \( \) subject plymouth sundance dodge shadow experiences \? article henson 1993apr18 distribution usa organization western washington university lines 25 daubendr nextwork rose hulman edu \( darren r daubenspeck \) writes pretty much junk , stay away replaced next year new models junk \? 've made c lists years due excellent handling acceleration around since , oh , 85 86 , 're newest lot , mileage five eight mpg class leader get 3 0 l v 6 \( 141 hp \) shadow 10 11k \( 4 turbo bit \) , droptop 14 15k car good n c u n e written back crooked letters 2 year old written \? ! \( silly 's make label back cars appear like mercedes \) sorry , could n't resist
johnson spectra com \( boyd johnson \) subject automotive crash test , performance maintenance stats \? organization corporation distribution usa lines 23 wrote resource available consumer comparing makes models automobiles , trucks , vans , etc crash different \? also , 've found little objective data comparing different vehicles handling , pick , braking , expected maintenance , etc recall years ago consumer reports annual buyer 's guide much informative aspects thanks reply someone looked little found looking april cr magazine things despite recent articles ratings looked pretty good relative comparison purposes unfortunately crash test comparisons n't include half cars i'm comparing anybody know '93 honda civic toyota fare accident \? boyd johnson nosc ! spectra com ! johnson san diego , california intermittent newsfeed best selected groups opinions certainly n't match employer
subject lexan polish \? jeff mri com \( jonathan jefferies \) expires sun , 8 aug 1993 07 00 00 gmt organization research , santa clara , california , usa keywords lexan , plastic summary scratches plastic lines 27 article ns1 nodak edu wilken plains nodak edu \( scott wilken \) writes couple years ago replaced stock windscreen interceptor higher one national cycle thing happens made lexan anyone recommend polish use safe lexan \? starting show scratches , id like polish go fast ! internet wilken plains nodak edu ama take chances ! uucp ! uunet ! plains ! wilken dod interceptor bitnet wilken plains suggest 1 plastic polish help somewhat nothing remove deep scratches without making worse already something fine light stuff also suggest calling local plastic shop calif tap plastic chain carries needed repair sometimes replacement plastic bits telephone bay area 415 962 i'm sure amenable shipping found several excellent products cleaning , removing crap face shields also one called lift works real well removing sticky plastic scratching luck , jonathan jefferies , jeff mri com
blgardne javelin sim es com \( dances bikers \) subject faq dod \? summary everything always wanted know dod , afraid ask keywords dod faq article javelin dod monthly expires sun , 30 may 1993 07 05 01 gmt reply blgardne javelin sim es com organization evans sutherland computer corporation lines 849 supersedes dod monthly javelin sim es com periodic posting intended answer frequently asked question dod \? posted first month , expiration time month thus , unless site 's news software ill mannered , posting always available crossposted four rec motorcycles groups attempt catch new users , followups directed rec motorcycles last changed 9 feb 93 add message kotl , bit version 1 1 collection originally assembled , original postings 's permission , title corrections , additions , , etc aimed blgardne javelin sim es com contents get dod number \? blaine gardner dod 46 dod road rider article bruce tanner dod 161 dod \? john sloan dod 11 dod logo chuck rogers dod 3 dod \( started \) denizen doom dod 1 dod anthem jonathan quist dod 94 killed blaine gardner dod 46 rec moto photo archive courtesy bruce tanner dod 161 patches \? patches \? blaine gardner dod 46 letter ama museum jim rogers , director dod 395 dod rules consensus rec moto resources various keepers dod misc rec moto reviews archive courtesy loki jorgenson dod 1210 updated stats rides info ed green \( dod 111 \) others get dod number \? frequently asked question rec motorcycles dod \? , second frequently asked question must get dod number \? simple asking keeper list \( kotl , accept keepers \) number 're feeling creative , favorite number n't taken already , make request , subject kotl approval \( warning , non numeric , non base 10 number requests likely earn flame kotl wo n't get , pay \) oh , one little , tiny suggestion ask kotl e mail 'll playing lightning rod flames post whole net , 'll look like clueless newbie 're probably asking 's kotl already \? well , john sloan notes , 's real secret left around , \( un \) subtle hints first , , anyone mentioned name posting \( maybe \) , though john original kotl second , keeping true spirit unix , kotl 's first name two letters long , spelled entirely characters \( 2 5 , kotl shares name line oriented text utility \) third , occasionally seen posting messages new dod numbers \( mostly weenie mailers \) fourth , reason suspect kotl dead head newsflash message kotl intellectual pinnacle electronically kotl , please keep mind kotl indeed work living , occasionally must pacify boss getting something done request may languish mailer queue \( gasp ! \) days , perhaps even \( horrors ! \) week two times economic activity part kotl 's employers , sending yet another copy request speed processing queue \( makes longer , verification left reader \) suspect mailer problems , least subsequent requests indication former request submitted , lest assigned multiple numbers \( , think kotl list \? ! \? \) one thing , kotl says powers n't used provide information list , ya \? typical dod list entry contains number , name , state country , e mail address example 0111 ed green ca ed green east sun com \( ps john mentions net access bike requirements dod membership , 's strictly true days , number denizens lack one \) blaine \( dances bikers \) gardner blgardne javelin sim es com denizens doom , bruce tanner \( dod \) road rider , august 1991 , reprinted bruce 's permission group motorcyclists gets together normal things bunch bikers discuss motorcycles motorcycling , beverages , cleaning fluids , , , , helmets , anti fog shields , spine protectors , aerodynamics , three angle valve seats , bird hits , deer , good restaurants , racing philosophy , traffic laws , tickets , corrosion control , personalities , , double , culture , absence culture , first rides friendship argue plan rides together difference group local motorcycle club , although get together everyday , never seen face face members group live known world communicate electronically via computer computers range laptops multi million dollar computer centers people range college university students high tech industry professionals public access electronic bulletin board users currently , rec motorcycles \( pronounced wreck dot motorcycles , 's file name group 's primary line meeting place \) carries articles per month read estimated 29 , 000 people frequent posters belong motorcycle club , denizens doom , usually referred dod dod started motorcyclist john r wrote couple parodies designed poke fun motorcycle stereotypes fellow computer enthusiast bruce robinson posted articles pen name , denizen doom later chuck rogers signed dod nr keeper flame bruce designated dod nr 0002 , , course , , originator parodies , given dod nr 0001 idea motorcycle club organization , meetings rules appealed many , john sloan dod nr 0011 became keeper list , issuing dod numbers anyone wanted one date almost 400 issued people united states canada , well australia , new zealand , united kingdom , france , germany , norway finland keeper list sloan eventually designed club patch initial run 300 patches sold immediately profits went american motorcycle heritage foundation another fund selling denizens doom pins members started arnie skurow months later , project successful profits donated foundation far , denizens contributed 1500 ama museum plaque name denizens doom hangs motorcycle heritage museum often possible , dod'ers crawl behind crts go riding together turns two largest concentrations dod'ers centered near denver boulder , colorado , california 's silicon valley consequently , two major events annual assault rollins pass colorado , northern versus southern california joust ride feed bike trip rollins pass , followed big barbecue dinner concept joust riders northern california ride south riders southern california ride north , meeting site somewhere middle additional plan 1991 hold official denizens doom conjunction ama heritage columbus , ohio , july though 's safe bet denizens doom collective communications hub , rec motorcycles , replace traditional motorcycle organizations , electronic pathways search two wheeled , 's great way kindred spirits get together long may flame live flame flame live official motto denizens doom refers ease insult someone electronically , would anything like face face insults known flames issuing called flaming flames often start member disagrees something another member posted network typical , sophisticated , intelligent form calm , reasoned rebuttal would something like incredibly stupid statement , clad ! guarantee five people reply defense original poster , describing think , riding ability cat denizens doom saga unfolds john sloan dod 0011 periodically question dod \? raised one questions class sky blue \? , god , much suffering world \? women inevitably tell 're nice guy dump \? , kinds questions mysticism , tradition , philosophy , questions inspired research discussion philosophers locker rooms , motorcycle service bays , halls generations long , long time ago \( computer time , anything minutes eternity problem really problem \) computer far , far away net \( speaking two machines room atlanta might route mail one another via system chicago \) , chap wished remain anonymous \( eventually assigned dod membership 1 \) wrote satire various personalities flame wars rec motorcycles , signed denizen doom wishing identify , asked individual would fullness time become dod 2 post dod 2 , really giving whit people thought generally right thinking individual , flaming followed would become holder dod membership 3 thought funniest thing 'd seen \( sort pretty easily amused \) , claimed membership denizens doom motorcycle club , started signing postings membership number perhaps readers rec motorcycles struck vision motorcycle club dues , rules , restrictions brand make model national origin motorcycle , club organized electronically may well readers become part something would provide greater identity , gestalt personality , something whole greater sum parts could also 're computer wear black socks sneakers pocket protectors , happen also love taking risks machines awesome power weight ratios , social saw clique would finally open minded enough accept us members clear case self fulfilling prophesy , denizens doom motorcycle club born club majority members never met one another face face \( perhaps like way \) , yet feel know one another pretty well \( well enough given electronic personalities newsgroup \) club organized run \( sense word \) volunteers network via electronic news mail , membership mailing list \( often used organize group rides amongst members live region \) , motto , logo , series photo circulating around country \( organized dod 9 \) , club patches \( organized 11 \) , even mtv style music video \( produced 47 distributed vhs 18 \) ! end \? knows \? dod start races , placing limits memory clock rate board engine management computers \? dod organize poker runs participant collects hand hardware software reference cards \? dod rally attendees demand terminal room least 386 sized unix system \? time tell dod dues , rules , requirements net access love motorcycles become member , one need ask \( although admit must ask one really good club secrets \) new members receive via email membership number latest copy membership list , includes name , state , email address denizens doom motorcycle club live forever \( least next year may decided change name \) live flame flame live dod daemon seen patches , pins , etc chuck rogers , car377 att com , dod \( dod \) \( x x \) \( x x \) \( x x \) \( l f \) \( l \) \( v \) \( e \) \( e \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( f \) \( l l \) \( \) \( \( \) v \) \( e e \) \( x x \) \( x x \) \( x rec motorcycles x \) \( usenet \) dod denizen doom dod 1 welcome one , newsgroup time wreck mudder disciples mudder disciples \? names changes protect guilty \( riders \) innocent \( bikes \) alike think recognize version name , n't 's guilt complex working read 'em weep tune conversation heros terrible barbarian extolling virtues hopalonga puff reverend muck stompin injection terrible hopalonga greatest beats bmws dead ! ! muck n't mean preach , terrible , lighten bmw crowd eh \? mean like like riding yuka yuka jammer 11 heck stompin way , bmw , complete , 's man terrible , 're sounding like heritick ! hey , least selling bmw uses hopalonga ! good puff , called stream stompin mean wee stream terrible going \? call \? \? \? stompin man comes arlow scarecrow high tech let 's see say , eh \? muck men , let 's try civil high tech hi , i'm 9 bmw greatest arlow b love bmw ! terrible b \? \? \? arlow burley thumpison , greatest american ride muck ahhh , look , 're making terrible gag terrible bmw stand anyway \? \? \? muck , arlow , high beats , wilhelm terrible actually , name terrible hmmm , n't know either muck say , comes chunky bear chunky hey , hey , hey ! smarter average bear ! terrible hey , n't drop bmw \? \? \? chunky right eh , little , left behind mean even flamed ! muck 's okay , makes mistakes blue west arrive , led tread orange dill , heritick , buck , snob favorite hooter brush ! heritick terrible , 's yer front back bias \? terrible bad , sold yer bmw \? heritick hooter hoot , hoot buck nice tree hooter , 'd ya get \? hooter hell ! ! ! muck 's \? hooter well , ai n't made ! ! ! made ! ! muck ahh , come , n't going flame ya , honest ! ! dill well , race \? snob know , chunky , know drop well , n't ride ! muck ! ! quiet ! tread bmw 's greatest supreme level headed opinion even luggage made ! high 9 ! terrible , heritick , dill , buck ! ! ! stompin , tread , high , chunky , snob ! ! ! issue could resolved hopalonga crew called local area including polyanna infamous booster ! polyanna well , men , real bikers use bikes like use hopalonga evening bird special helpful getting ole stand ! terrible hopalonga 's great like polyanna says yuka yuka 's good ! booster hate know , know booster love know know muck well , mucho \? snob , tread muck tridump \? terrible n't chewing gum \? muck , \? heritick muck , call demon rider \? muck , mudder disciples arguing make two riders zoom , form pill lifter pill stands stands forever hey , n't know even west pour road hopalonga 's greatest ! may sit ! suddenly people arrived great dark hey , bmw 's great , men prefer motorcycle robot transformers , personally riders west coast come discussion get burley thumpison rigged frame guess gasket go bmw burley thumpison roar latest mudder disciple none clean hopalonga clean like look , hopalonga muck \? \? clean well , like 's gotta 6 banger muck 4 banger clean good ! chunky sob , us 2 bangers ! clean inferior ! stompin hey , look , 's proof bmw 's better bimmer boys burst song \( singing \) beemer babe , beemer babe give thrill road , terrible , polyanna , , dill etc bmw stand \? heritick , stompin , snob , chunky , tread , , high , arlow , ! road , terrible , polyanna , , dill etc oh , n't mean bmw \? ensuing argument goes skies clouded thunder greatest mudder disciple \( g \) g enough bickering ! doomed riding bigot suction powered mini childish actions , , ! ! ! mean wreck mudder disciples riding mini \? arguing heros doomed \? tune next week next gut episode ever increasing cast characters technical problems flamed well done next week 's episode answer question helmet helmet aired , material viewer discretion advised script denizens doom anthem video jonathan e quist dod 94 scene sterile engineering office lone figure , 'll call chuck , stands printer output bin , wearing white cdc lab coat , 5 mechanical pocket protector \( editor 's note reason great deal amusement first annual dod uni coastal ride joust denizens referring chuck guess n't \) chuck n't want software systems analyst , cow towing whims machine , saying , , may another sir mother made wanted live man 's life , music slowly builds background riding triumphs highest mountain passes deepest valleys , living life motorcyclist donuts evading police old ladies raping small children eating small dogs tea \( large dogs dinner \) short , want denizen ! chuck lab coat , revealing black leather jacket \( fringe \) , boots , cap scene simultaneously changes top obviously assaulted rollins pass small hell 's angels sit harleys near background , gunning engines , nails turn donuts , leaking oil chuck standing front heavily chromed fat boy chuck sings tune lumberjack song i'm denizen i'm okay , flame night ride day hell 's angels echo chorus , surprisingly heavy 's denizen 's okay , flames night rides day ride bike eat lunch go ride skyline , running children glee chorus rides bike eats lunch goes rides skyline , running children glee chorus refrain 'cause 's denizen ride real fast , name chuck , somehow seems fit rate worst bad f ck , like real good sh oh , i'm denizen i'm okay ! flame night ride day chorus refrain oh , 's denizen wear high heels bright pink shorts , full leathers bra wish rode harley , like dear chorus refrain killed well , first thing understand \( case managed read far , still figure \) dod started joke words one denizen , intends remain one sometime far distant past , newbie asked dod stand \? 's department defense \? naturally , denizen watched movie top gun times many rose occasion replied 's classified , could tell , 'd kill rest history variation security theme supply disinformation dod stands notable contributions \( , known \) include daughters democracy \( dod 23 \) donuts dancers despair \( dod 9 \) daughters denver driveway death donuts note comprehensive list , variations appear limited contents one 's imagination dictionary file rec moto photo archive first bit history , started stern chuck rogers organizing rec motorcycles photo album many copies made , several sets sent tours around world , vanish unknown locations bruce tanner decided would appropriate electronic medium electronic photo album bruce provided disk space ftp e mail access , taken time scan photos available archive see folks look like , also motorcycles non photo files available server , include dod membership list , dod yellow pages , general rec motorcycles faq , faq posting couple excerpts messages bruce posted use archive via ftp cerritos edu 130 150 200 21 via e mail address server cerritos edu commands given body message current commands dir send , given one per line arguments commands vms style file specifications rec moto photo file spec dod file example , send dir dod send dod bruce tanner gif send dod ps 'll get back 5 mail messages directory listing , 3 uuencoded parts bruce tanner gif , ps file ascii oh , \( \) allowed , maximum 20 mail messages \( rounded next whole file \) send 'send dod would send 150 files 50k good idea bruce tanner \( 213 \) 860 x 596 tanner cerritos edu cerritos college norwalk , ca cerritos ! tanner couple comments bruce put quite bit effort , drop note find rec moto photo archive useful \? second , since bruce provided server favor , would kind access normal working hours \( california time \) patches \? patches \? may heard mention various dod patches pins reaction probably want ! , 's sick ! , perhaps 's sick ! want ! well , 's good news bad news good news 's amazing variety dod labeled widgets created bad news n't anywhere buy n't attempt , simply dod store keeps stock creations done individual denizens pockets typical procedure someone says i'm thinking dod made , 'll cost xx xx , xx xx going ama museum anyone want one \? orders taken , batch large enough cover pre paid orders produced \( quickly consumed \) want dod , act quickly next time somebody decides one produce one see void needs filling , anarchy action 's possibly incomplete list known dod merchandise \( perpetrators \) patches \( dod 11 \) , pins \( dod 99 \) , stickers \( dod 99 \) , motorcycle license plate frames \( dod 216 \) , shirts \( dod 99 \) , shirts \( dod 122 \) , lighters \( dod 99 \) , belt \( dod 99 \) , patches \( dod 99 \) second batch done \( rapidly consumed \) popular demand profits donated american motorcyclist association motorcycle heritage museum june 1992 , 5500 dollars contributed museum fund dod visit museum , 'll see large plaque wall name denizens doom , usenet , world , complete dod pin 's letter ama dod regarding contributions newsgroups rec motorcycles arnie skurow arnie magnus acs ohio state edu subject letter motorcycle heritage museum date mon , 13 apr 1992 11 04 58 gmt received following letter jim rogers , director museum , day dear arnie members denizens doom congratulations expressions gratitude order denizens doom ! recent donation , total amount donated 5 , 500 behalf , please extend gratitude membership denizens club 's new plaque presently prepared course , everyone invited come museum see plaque installed founders way , personally mount denizens club pin plaque , thank support , means much foundation , museum , fulfillment goals sincerely , jim rogers , director p please post computer bulletin board know , even though letter addressed personally , meant purchased dod goodies made amount possible arnie rules , regulations , bylaws denizens doom motorcycle club time time mention , discussion , flame rules dod order fan flames , complete text rules governing dod rule 1 rules rule 0 go ride rec motorcycles information resources several general rec motorcycles resources may may anything dod posted regular basis , also obtained cerritos ftp e mail server \( see info photo archive \) general rec motorcycles faq maintained dave williams cerritos filenames txt , n currently 1 5 dod yellow pages , listing motorcycle industry vendor phone numbers addresses , maintained bob cerritos filename yellow pages , n rev number list dod membership maintained keeper list cerritos filename dod list faq \( surprise , surprise ! \) maintained truly cerritos filename dod faq txt additions , corrections , etc aimed keepers respective texts \( loki jorgenson loki physics mcgill ca \) provided archive site motorcycle accessory reviews , 's excerpt periodic announcement rec motorcycles reviews archives \( world famous llama emporium \) contains veritable plethora \( tm \) bike \( accessories \) reviews , written rec moto readers based experiences invaluable gems opinion \( highly valued potential reduce noise list \) accessed via anonymous ftp , email server personal request anonymous ftp ftp physics mcgill ca \( 132 206 9 13 \) ftp pub dod email archive server rm reviews ftp physics mcgill ca review submissions questions rm reviews physics mcgill ca note difference addresses review submission using email archive server \( ie ftp \) get started email server , send email message line containing send help note return address appears like domain ! ! host ! username mail header , include line like \( something similar \) path username host domain interested submitting review bike already \( ed \) , please ! template format reviews kept \( less \) available archive site internet access unsure anonymous ftp works , example script available request reviews motorcycle related accessory widget welcome updated stats rec motorcycles rides info info cited various places tends moving target rather trying catch every occurence , i'm sticking latest info estimated rec motorcycles readership news groups approximate dod membership 975 kotl dod contributions american motorcyclist association motorcycle heritage museum 5500 arnie organized \( \? \) rides summer 1992 saw organized rides , joust third year , ride feed going strong , without rollins pass trip due collapse tunnel east coast denizens got together right coast ride \( \) , bikers far north nh , far south fl meeting mountains north carolina pacific northwest crew organized first great pacific northwest gather \( \) , another successful excuse riding motorcycles , seeing faces behind names come know well thanks ed green addition also worth mentioning first rec moto dirt ride , held moab area southern utah riders 5 states showed , riding everything monster bmws almost legal 2 strokes though 's official \( anything could official crowd \) rec moto event , vintage motorcycle races springs , colorado always provides good excuse netters gather 's also occasional labor day gather utah european denizens staged gathers \( ad , reasonable rates ! \) blaine gardner evans sutherland 580 drive , slc , utah blgardne javelin sim es com bix blaine g bix com fj1200 half vehicles computers dod 46 blaine gardner evans sutherland 580 drive , slc , utah blgardne javelin sim es com bix blaine g bix com fj1200 half vehicles computers dod 46
manes magpie linknet com \( steve manes \) subject oops ! oh ! organization manes associates , nyc x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 53 wm l ranck \( ranck joesbar cc vt edu \) wrote hate admit , i'm still mentally kicking rode brand new home last friday night 100 miles rain darkness problems got home put center stand next day pushed center stand preparation going friend 's house pose guessed got away landed right side scratched lower fairing , cracked right mirror , cracked upper fairing damn stupid ! 's going cost 200 get local body shop fix take fairing still , 's probably cheaper mirror alone bought replacement bmw got cheap sister 's ex boyfriend incessant pain ass wanting ride bikes \( way , jose \) finally took 's bmw new canaan , ct last fall seen nice , used k100rs perfect condition telling everyone shop norton war stories fifteen years ago , signing liability waiver , getting pre flight , went well , quite walked pizza shop street , feeling good \( made sister 's boyfriend happy got persistent ass good \) , heard horrendous racket engine tortured red line crash saw people running towards obvious source disturbance jeff laying bmw rear wheel spinning wildly someone groping kill switch stared disbelief slice hanging mouth matty , shop manager , slid beside asked , friend , steve \? shit , matty , could worse could ! jeff n't made 10 inches witnesses said lifted feet letting clutch gravity got best jeff claimed clutch n't engage matty quick jeff still embarrassed shock managed jeff 's credit card quick signature twenty minutes later , jeff 's color flush , matty presented estimate 580 busted right mirror crack fairing fixing crack masking damaged area , new fairing could buy bike i'm sure happened later sister split jeff shortly afterwards \( hook another piece work \) except matty told ran charge december went stephen manes manes magpie linknet com manes associates new york , ny , usa
randy megatek com \( randy davis \) subject miracle california article megatek 1993apr5 reply randy megatek com organization megatek corporation , san diego , california lines 15 article seven east sun com egreen east sun com writes bikers wave bikers world whether harley riders wave bikers one favorite flame wars happy say harley riders area better flamed \( riding lowly sport bike , less \) girlfriend recipient less twenty waves group least twenty five harley riders leading group four sport bikes time \( fj1200 cbr900rr vfr750 \) initiated waves , perfect day , friendly riders despite brand differences made better randy davis email randy megatek com zx 11 00072 pilot uunet ! ucsd ! megatek ! randy dod 0013
subject dod paraphernalia stafford vax2 winona msus edu \( john stafford \) distribution world organization winona state university nntp posting host stafford winona msus edu lines 11 article cronkite central sun com , doc webrider central sun com \( steve bunis \) wrote thicker vinyl \? geeky temporary \? mean , exempt little john stafford minnesota state university winona standard disclaimers apply
maven eskimo com \( norman hamer \) subject miracle california organization eskimo north \( 206 \) ever lines 22 waving must say , courtesy nod wave meet bikers riding lot good things mood riding lot fun , 's something really special someone say hey , 's great day ride n't wonderful spend time road days like gesture sunny today first time week , took bike spin local salvage yard bike shop ran 20 people similar reasons \( 's great stretch road way side streets , lotsa leaning bends \) went coffee bullshit run batch people n't know , kinda people nonetheless fellow commented bike hey , 's ride , 's ride long 2 wheels engine 's thing maven eskimo com \( internet \) maven mavenry altcit eskimo com \( usenet \) maven mavenry \( \)
mjmuise 1302 watstar uwaterloo ca \( mike muise \) subject drinking riding lines 19 organization waterloo engineering article c4wkbp b9w eskimo com , maven eskimo com \( norman hamer \) writes general rule thumb sobriety cycling \? couple hours feel sober \? \? work drink tonight , n't ride tomorrow \? 1 hr drink first 4 drinks 1 5 hours drink next 6 drinks 2 hours drink rest fairly cautious guidelines , work even happen low tolerance body mass think cops n't dare drink drive \( tm \) commercials usually say 1hr drink general , 5 drinks 5 hrs , could well legal limit watch mike mike muise mjmuise 1302 watstar uwaterloo ca quotes , jokes , electrical engineering , university waterloo disclaimer , fear
egreen east sun com \( ed green pixel cruncher \) subject insect impacts organization sun microsystems , rtp , nc lines 35 distribution world reply egreen east sun com nntp posting host laser east sun com article rd hydro ca , jlevine rd hydro ca \( jody levine \) writes helmetless \? um , way people horseback fast , would probably enjoy eating bugs , anyway every bit fast dirtbike , right terrain eat flies , thank 're supposed keep windscreen go \? snow skis bugs , poeple go fast wear goggles helmetless motorcyclists question still stands cruiser riders negligible helmets stand highway 75 mph buggy , summer evenings \? helmetless ! ed green , former ninjaite drinking last night biker , ed green east sun com showed picture said , dod 0111 \( 919 \) 460 8302 go , get know , 'll like ! \( grateful dead \) seemed like least could
egreen east sun com \( ed green pixel cruncher \) subject miracle california organization sun microsystems , rtp , nc lines 25 distribution world reply egreen east sun com nntp posting host laser east sun com article juts ccc amdahl com , ccc amdahl com \( brian w simmons \) writes maybe n't big deal , raised south , part cultural heritage waving waved side road passing cars , drove waved least raised index finger steering wheel people waved drove raised south , attest true , one particularly hot day , walking along road , good ole boys truck tossed cold beer ! course , going 50 mph time p prove n't fluke , happened riding wednesday unsolicited wave wow bikers wave bikers world whether harley riders wave bikers one favorite flame wars ed green , former ninjaite drinking last night biker , ed green east sun com showed picture said , dod 0111 \( 919 \) 460 8302 go , get know , 'll like ! \( grateful dead \) seemed like least could
jrwaters eos ncsu edu \( jack rogers waters \) subject cultural enquiries article ncsu 1993apr5 organization north carolina state university , project eos lines 47 article cmptrc lonestar org irwin cmptrc lonestar org \( irwin arnstein \) writes article sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes article aber ac uk , azw aber ac uk \( andy woodward \) writes two questions check local blue light special sale lives 1 \) rednecks called rednecks \? origin slang probably reference neck , often obtained performing honest work outdoors neck specified distinguish people , whose shirt protected chest back pale , elitist wealthy , , idiotic quest darker skin badge leisure time , overdo get full body like use backs instead minds make living usually ignorant intolerant anything outside group level understanding tuba \( irwin \) honk therefore computrac richardson , tx irwin cmptrc lonestar org dod 0826 \( r75 6 \) sounds like awfully closed minded , intolerant attitude 1 2 ' \) i'm try walk shoes first stereotypes usually limited value 've seen many ignorant self righteous open minded new age lovers great planet earth ignorant red necks n't see correlation n't believe culture , call , necessarily inferior superior gotta beer , i'm making much sense next thing know , 'll preaching tolerance i'm conservative jack waters ii dod 1919 n't fear thief night one comes afternoon , i'm still asleep , worry
ai598 cleveland freenet edu \( mike sturdevant \) subject carrying crutches \( living article usenet reply ai598 cleveland freenet edu \( mike sturdevant \) organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 18 nntp posting host slc10 ins cwru edu previous article , pooder rchland vnet ibm com \( \) says broke right leg two places \( motorcycle accident car accident thunk \? \) put crutches gretchen 's rear rack i'm getting metal rod pulled friday going back crutches six weeks think crutches handlebars sound aesthetically pleasing attach \? got knee rebuilt got back street bike asap put crutches rack passenger seat hung back long way make sure 're tied tight front go fast take chances mike
bclarke galaxy gov bc ca subject kawi zephyr \? \( vision vs gpz 550 \) organization bc systems corporation lines 14 article 1993apr4 pro cts com , shadow pro cts com writes 1993apr3 organpipe uug arizona edu asphaug lpl arizona edu \( erik asphaug x2773 \) writes way , short lived zephyr essentially gpz 550 , zephyr discontinued \? heard something problem name , never hear anything certain n't think 550 sold well north americans ride standard rather sport bike usually want something bigger people walk dealership , look 550 750 say , might well spring extra bucks bigger engine bruce clarke b c environment e mail bclarke galaxy gov bc ca
ai598 cleveland freenet edu \( mike sturdevant \) subject ed must daemon child ! ! article usenet reply ai598 cleveland freenet edu \( mike sturdevant \) organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 22 nntp posting host slc10 ins cwru edu previous article , svoboda rtsg mot com \( david svoboda \) says article 1993apr2 linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org \( cookson \) writes wait minute , ed noemi satan \? wow , seemed like nice boy noemi makes think , kotl talking bout noemi know \? makes think big bore hand guns extreme weirdness babe rode across desert ! borrowed death ride n't fuck man , making big mistake go fast take chances mike
cjackson adobe com \( curtis jackson \) subject identify bike article adobe 1993apr6 distribution usa organization adobe systems incorporated , mountain view lines 14 article 1993apr5 ucsu colorado edu coburnn spot colorado edu \( nicholas coburn \) writes first thought \( hawk modified two brothers racing \) , think made huge tank additionally , someone told quite firmly 2 honda sales service weenies larger tank available hawk \( '91 hawk puny 3 2 gal tank \) , 'd interested know decent aftermarket solution 'd love least 4 gal tank curtis jackson cjackson mv us adobe com '91 hawk gt '81 maxim 650 dod 0721 kotb '91 black lab mix studley doright '92 collie golden george justification taking away individuals' freedom guise public safety thomas jefferson
azw aber ac uk \( andy woodward \) subject cultural enquiries organization university college wales , aberystwyth lines 39 nntp posting host 144 124 112 30 article stafford stafford winona msus edu stafford vax2 winona msus edu \( john stafford \) writes article aber ac uk , azw aber ac uk \( andy woodward \) wrote two questions easily fascinated 1 \) rednecks called rednecks \? called welch \? ok , 's often south southeastern farmers 's necks permanently damaged sunburn sun know , never sets british empire never shines wales despicable lie ! sunny 3rd july 1958 11 11 made note diaries never wrong 2 \) ride harleys \? n't drive pick trucks shoot bikers please enlighten visited last , answers got incoherent deserve \? john stafford minnesota state university winona standard disclaimers apply , chance ride harley \? \( feeling \) neck \? good , i'm told getting bored winding americans like bombing fish barrel andy
azw aber ac uk \( andy woodward \) subject countersteering faq please post organization university college wales , aberystwyth lines 10 nntp posting host 144 124 112 30 article c4zkcl fgc ux1 cso uiuc edu eric ux1 cso uiuc edu \( 93cbr900rr \) writes would someone please post countersteering faq awful time debating someone push right handle motorcycle turning left ca n't explain \( well least \) happens please help post faq need convert eric hmm , , would able take \?
azw aber ac uk \( andy woodward \) subject dr organization university college wales , aberystwyth lines 12 nntp posting host 144 124 112 30 article 1993mar31 cs brown edu cs brown edu \( \) writes n't heard dr years anyone know plays stations around , ri \( \) \? 'd love pay shipping recording show best boring old prefer breeze , 97 , salt lake city wonderfully wanted take whole station back flight bag \( especially sexy voice morning show \)
azw aber ac uk \( andy woodward \) subject pink tools motorcycles \? organization university college wales , aberystwyth lines 1 nntp posting host 144 124 112 30 prevented diving one
azw aber ac uk \( andy woodward \) subject cultural enquiries organization university college wales , aberystwyth lines 35 nntp posting host 144 124 112 30 article bigboote wpi edu ravi vanilla wpi edu \( ravi \) writes previous article , groh nu cs fsu edu said azw aber ac uk \( andy woodward \) writes 2 \) ride harleys \? 'cause sure lucky ! told people actually get harley ride \) \( name tod johnson jumps mind laz whats used ride \? \? \? \) sig \( n \) piece mail fool one ravi , cs , wpi end flames \( c \) 89 \) hi , ravi need harley , lots spare yuppies bought 'the couple years ago pose \( \) wine bar mile walked called taxi home went back porsche 's loads going cheap 1 1 2 miles clock \( takes coast halt \) cheers andy p get better class people 's anyway
azw aber ac uk \( andy woodward \) subject drinking riding organization university college wales , aberystwyth lines 11 nntp posting host 144 124 112 30 article 1993apr3 galaxy gov bc ca bclarke galaxy gov bc ca writes article c4wkbp b9w eskimo com , maven eskimo com \( norman hamer \) writes drinking riding general rule thumb sobriety cycling \? couple hours feel sober \? \? work drink tonight , n't ride tomorrow \? even half beer increase confidence slugging reactions judgement much maybe , hard enough stay alive length time without stacking odds 'll ride
azw aber ac uk \( andy woodward \) subject living organization university college wales , aberystwyth lines 15 nntp posting host 144 124 112 30 article 05apr93 0049 unbvm1 csd unb ca c70a unb ca \( c70a000 \) writes article 1993apr2 eos arc nasa gov phil eos arc nasa gov \( phil stone \) writes thanks compliments , allan , think point n't say n't take chances sheesh , getting bed morning risky ankle damn right late climbing meet one morning , got bed without bothering right foot still asleep reminded folding underneath crunching lucky brake 's right , got funny looks riding thru london one leg held \( climbing problem best world tight climbing shoe \)
azw aber ac uk \( andy woodward \) subject protective gear organization university college wales , aberystwyth lines 19 nntp posting host 144 124 112 30 article 1993apr3 galaxy gov bc ca bclarke galaxy gov bc ca writes article c4wkfs bc1 eskimo com , maven eskimo com \( norman hamer \) writes protective gear important \? 've got good helmet \( shoei rf200 \) good , thick jacket \( leather gold \) pair really cheap leather gloves next purchase \? better gloves , boots , leather pants , \? remember tuck properly , bits going take punishment gear probably feet , hips knees get boots trousers gloves come last , long 've self control pull arms tuck , get good gloves first hands easily wrecked put one steady fall 70mph ! ! bits heal easier fully covered , longer tuck , lie back enjoy ride best , take mean contradictory answers get
laszlo eclipse cs colorado edu \( laszlo nemeth \) subject new dod listing membership nntp posting host eclipse cs colorado edu organization university colorado boulder , pizza disposal group lines 23 new dod listing get copy use one commands finger cs colorado edu mail cs colorado edu send mail make sure line correct \( ie man vacation \) try fix mail problems \( unless mine \) may publicly tell world bad mailer scan mail find bounces waste time answering questions requests want update entry get contact kotl kotl make changes stop bothering inane mail tell dod ! ask rec motorcycles give 's laszlo nemeth laszlo cs colorado edu hey tool works \( yeah , quote \) sun com free drugs dod 0666 1999
egreen east sun com \( ed green pixel cruncher \) subject round two organization sun microsystems , rtp , nc lines 22 distribution world reply egreen east sun com nntp posting host laser east sun com article serval net wsu edu , bill csc wsu edu \( william e johns \) writes good sam got 300 bricks , delivered first class postage door , expense , bet would change policies mailing lists use facilities quickly lord god almighty parted sky make personal appearance board directors meeting , would also change policies odds equal curious many bricks send cleared satisfaction suspect 5 shall see 'll extremely lucky ever get one ed green , former ninjaite drinking last night biker , ed green east sun com showed picture said , dod 0111 \( 919 \) 460 8302 go , get know , 'll like ! \( grateful dead \) seemed like least could
howland noc2 arc nasa gov \( curt howland \) subject another question synthetic article news 1993apr6 distribution usa organization nasa science internet project office lines 21 article 1993apr5 porthos cc bellcore com , fist iscp bellcore com \( richard pierson \) writes two years ago went work mechanic emd ge power units \( train engines \) never ever change oil , filters remember seeing large engine oil requirements , one ways life oil run heated un chamber allow water boil made long term usage oil practical n't discovery channel great ! \? ! curt howland ace dod 0663 eff 569 howland nsipo nasa gov '82 v45 sabre meddle afairs wizards , makes soggy hard light
coburnn spot colorado edu \( nicholas coburn \) subject identify bike nntp posting host spot colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder distribution usa lines 24 ok , saw bike today want know lets begin saying whole rear end definately hawk 650 additionally , cbr900rr style tank , full fairing , tach , first thought \( hawk modified two brothers racing \) , think made huge tank additionally , gauges certainly hawk looked much like 900rr gauges overall , bike looked like 900rr except rear single sided swingarm wheel \( straight hawk \) , see \? \( ps , boulder , saw parked engineering center today white light green stripes \) nick coburn dod 6425 ama coburnn spot colorado edu
svoboda rtsg mot com \( david svoboda \) subject ed must daemon child ! ! nntp posting host corolla18 organization motorola inc , cellular infrastructure group lines 11 article 1993apr2 linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org \( cookson \) writes wait minute , ed noemi satan \? wow , seemed like nice boy noemi makes think , kotl dave svoboda \( svoboda void rtsg mot com \) 're bad bone ! 90 concours 1000 \( mmmmmmmmmm ! \) bad bone ! 84 rz 350 \( ring ding \) \( woops ! \) universally feared ama 583905 dod 0330 cog 939 \( chicago \) denizen
downey homer cs berkeley edu \( allen b downey \) subject speeding ticket chp organization university california , berkeley lines 13 distribution world nntp posting host homer cs berkeley edu paraphrase initial post fight speeding ticket court \? reply fight ticket california edition david brown 1st ed berkeley , ca press , 1982 second edition \( ucb 's library \) good luck let us know goes abd
davec autodesk com \( dave cooper \) subject sale h 1 500 organization autodesk inc , sausalito ca , usa lines 13 1975 h 1 500 brand new top end chambers clean black ! 1 , 500 paul \( 510 \) 839 please contact email address contact seller cheers dave
howland noc2 arc nasa gov \( curt howland \) subject cats dogs \? \? \? ! organization nasa science internet project office lines 29 article gate pgh pa us , pgh pa us \( robert h yang \) writes hi , sorry , feeling silly rob need , matter fact reminds bring something found consistant dogs time , like bike anywhere near , chase bite kill instructor said sound bike ears silly seams , options net wisdom \? curt howland ace dod 0663 eff 569 howland nsipo nasa gov '82 v45 sabre meddle afairs wizards , makes soggy hard light
howland noc2 arc nasa gov \( curt howland \) subject auction diana 's bra organization nasa science internet project office lines 13 article 1993apr2 adobe com , cjackson adobe com \( curtis jackson \) writes next thing know 'll see bikes geeky stickers parked outside local white wine , , fern bar hey ! like , even look note spell \( assumed \) correctly really , tough guys \( ! curtis making fun ! ! ! ! \)
howland noc2 arc nasa gov \( curt howland \) subject drinking riding organization nasa science internet project office lines 27 article c4wkbp b9w eskimo com , maven eskimo com \( norman hamer \) writes general rule thumb sobriety cycling \? couple hours feel sober \? \? work drink tonight , n't ride tomorrow \? 'll put vote latter bike takes lot involvement , one want accident fault remember one reviewer tried radio bike , one stated bike tended go faster music good agree , felt like self , physical , like drinking , emotional lift music first rule ecology never one side effect ride well curt howland ace dod 0663 eff 569 howland nsipo nasa gov '82 v45 sabre meddle afairs wizards , makes soggy hard light
howland noc2 arc nasa gov \( curt howland \) subject miracle california organization nasa science internet project office lines 23 waving fellow bikers stuff deleted first started riding street bikes told common recieve give wave fellow biker astounded moving left coast right coast , actually get waves harley riders ! , really ! remember first time truely memorable event might something refuse bring thanks , harley rider waves first curt howland ace dod 0663 eff 569 howland nsipo nasa gov '82 v45 sabre meddle afairs wizards , makes soggy hard light
howland noc2 arc nasa gov \( curt howland \) subject countersteering faq please post organization nasa science internet project office lines 12 article c4zkcl fgc ux1 cso uiuc edu , eric ux1 cso uiuc edu \( 93cbr900rr \) writes would someone please post countersteering faq eric like , 's faq \? curt howland ace dod 0663 eff 569 howland nsipo nasa gov '82 v45 sabre meddle afairs wizards , makes soggy hard light
subject ed must daemon child ! ! maine maine edu 1993apr2 1962 adobe com 1993apr2 linus mitre org organization university maine system lines 8 ed 's heading highway \? finally buy bike \? jeff dod 1976 maine maine edu access arranged college please reply via e mail , since followup might expire see net
subject kawi zephyr \? \( vision vs gpz 550 \) maine maine edu organization university maine system lines 17 n't know little zephyr 's , 1100 \( \) looks alot like '76 z1 ! one drooled tri sports , ! yes , mercury axed zephyr name guess lot aging republicans wanted zephyr confused mercury kawasaki \) oh well , 're better kawasaki anyways maybe 'll shake stick asses make libertarians ! gpz zephyr , gpz 've seen ball buster gas tank profile , smooth saddle gas tank transition motorcyclist claims zephyr zr z1 \( kz \) seventies jeff dod 1976 maine maine edu access arranged college please reply via e mail , since followup might expire see net
gharriso hpcc01 corp hp com \( graeme harrison \) subject r split \( insect impacts \) organization hp corporate notes server lines 30 hpcc01 rec motorcycles cookson mbunix mitre org \( cookson \) 2 02 pm apr 2 , 1993 right people , inane bug getting much propose split new group rec motorcycles nutrition deal squashed bugs thread dean cookson dcookson mitre org 617 271 2714 dod 207 ama 573534 mitre corp burlington rd , bedford , 01730 kotnml kotb worried saw , 'd never get '92 vfr750f ed green , dod 0111 '88 bianchi limited \? ! \? ! \? n't heard cross posting \? \? ! \? ! \? leave intact simply ignore responses zero interest stature discriminating taste \) yesterday , rd , wasp hit enough force glue eyes , enough kill legs frantically away found rather , shall say , distracting wiped residue next gas stop greenfield \) btw , rd leads 25 king city although took metz kc greenfield graeme harrison , hewlett packard co , communications components division , 350 w rd , san jose , ca 95131 \( gharriso hpcc01 corp hp com \) dod 649
subject tools tools tools behanna phoenix syl nj nec com \( chris behanna \) organization nec systems laboratory , inc lines 29 article 1 cs cmu edu jfriedl cs cmu edu writes behanna phoenix syl nj nec com \( chris behanna \) writes 're subject , anyone else noticed 1 2 deep well craftsman 's 60 sae deep well set small fit 1 2 bolt nut \? took socket exchange , every ! one 1 2 deep well sockets rack exact problem ! ! ! imply n't , since n't mention measure size test nut \? three cross lengths 1 2 \? 've seen bolt heads , even nuts , got slightly thicker toward sort cross section however , sample bolt took store fit rather well following 1 2 open end wrench , 1 2 box end wrench , 1 2 12 point normal socket take meaning 's 1 2 bolt head several people pointed , i'm noting tool faq i'm writing case anyone want , lifetime guarantee n't mean better tools yup 6 socket , want thing fit ! later , chris behanna dod 114 1983 h fxwg wide glide jubilee 's red lady behanna syl nj nec com 1975 cb360t baby bike disclaimer would nec 1991 zx 11 pending delivery agree anyway \? raised pack wild corn dogs
subject oops ! oh ! ranck joesbar cc vt edu \( wm l ranck \) organization virginia tech , blacksburg , virginia nntp posting host joesbar cc vt edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 17 jack rogers waters \( jrwaters eos ncsu edu \) wrote article vtserf cc vt edu ranck joesbar cc vt edu \( wm l ranck \) writes well , least damaged bike done someone else 's property 'd really feel like jerk feel stupid n't mean cynic may want reconsider body work done right away type thing may happen wait till get used bike , etc well , waited whole week take bits take body shop long enough \) bill ranck ranck joesbar cc vt edu
jrwaters eos ncsu edu \( jack rogers waters \) subject quest organization north carolina state university , project eos lines 30 article 1993apr5 research nj nec com behanna phoenix syl nj nec com \( chris behanna \) writes article 1993apr4 ncsu edu jrwaters eos ncsu edu \( jack rogers waters \) writes laughing , please questions first , need relay \? different kinds , , kind get \? horns 12 volt back calculations last night , figure puppies suck 10 amps work maximum efficiency \( e , cager might need shovel clean seat \) assumptions one meter neglecting solid angle considerations end effects acoustic shape horn , power output 125 watts approx 10 amps yes , get relay yes , tell \( want zx \) later , 'll post summary get enough information 'll include tips like know monkey pulling leg n't monkey 's bonded insured work bikes \? jack waters ii dod 1919 n't fear thief night one comes afternoon , i'm still asleep , worry
organization penn state university psuvm psu edu subject tools tools tools 1993apr1 osf org 1993apr2 kronos arc nasa gov 1993apr5 research nj nec com lines 1 drive everyones talking \?
irwin cmptrc lonestar org \( irwin arnstein \) subject cultural enquiries organization computrac inc , richardson tx lines 24 article sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes article aber ac uk , azw aber ac uk \( andy woodward \) writes two questions check local blue light special sale lives 1 \) rednecks called rednecks \? origin slang probably reference neck , often obtained performing honest work outdoors neck specified distinguish people , whose shirt protected chest back pale , elitist wealthy , , idiotic quest darker skin badge leisure time , overdo get full body like use backs instead minds make living usually ignorant intolerant anything outside group level understanding tuba \( irwin \) honk therefore computrac richardson , tx irwin cmptrc lonestar org dod 0826 \( r75 6 \)
egreen east sun com \( ed green pixel cruncher \) subject hats update patches ! organization sun microsystems , rtp , nc lines 15 distribution world reply egreen east sun com nntp posting host laser east sun com article fringe rain com , dean fringe rain com \( dean woodward \) writes 've got orders 30 35 hats expensive part \( surprisingly \) going patches made , setup fee 100 200 dean , 's old engineering saying concerning inventions wheels contact , 's done several runs patches , patch making company artwork already set paid ed green , former ninjaite drinking last night biker , ed green east sun com showed picture said , dod 0111 \( 919 \) 460 8302 go , get know , 'll like ! \( grateful dead \) seemed like least could
car377 cbnewsj cb att com \( charles rogers \) subject chain lube \( rm consensus chain cleaning \) summary application details article cbnewsj 1993apr5 organization lines 17 article 1993apr3 elektro cmhnet org , charlie elektro cmhnet org \( charlie smith \) writes article 1993mar24 linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org \( cookson \) writes anyone try spray chain wax reviewed one moto rags last month \? yeah sprayed rear drive shaft housing , n't seem make quieter ! ! n't read instructions first \? \? 're supposed spray ears wo n't distracted chain noise bikes around 's 's called chain wax chuck rogers car377 torreys att com car377 cbnewsj att com
subject bmw nostalgia question vech ra msstate edu \( craig vechorik \) organization mississippi state university nntp posting host ra msstate edu lines 17 go one step , could write roland , pres vintage bmw motorcycle owners ltd p box 67 , , new hampshire 'll send copy bimonthly rag info send 12 bucks ya want join far price '60 's beemers , varies wildly , low around 1000 bike still runs \( like r50 r60 \) 4500 restored n't listen bull old bmw 's good enough ride todays world hell , i'm riding 1956 single mississippi bmw moa national rally , wisconsin 22nd july year sincerely , craig vechorik bmw moa ambassador 9462 bmw vintage bulletin tech editor 1373 dod 843 real bmw 's round tail lights roller cranks
infante acpub duke edu \( andrew infante \) subject countersteering faq please post organization duke university durham , n c lines 37 nntp posting host north1 acpub duke edu article 05apr93 0049 unbvm1 csd unb ca c70a unb ca \( c70a000 \) writes article c4zkcl fgc ux1 cso uiuc edu eric ux1 cso uiuc edu \( 93cbr900rr \) writes would someone please post countersteering faq awful time debating someone push right handle motorcycle turning left ca n't explain \( well least \) happens please help post faq need convert ummm , push right handle bike speed bike turns left , methinks bike problem really ! \? methinks somethings wrong bike perhaps meant pull \? pushing right side handlebars send left really bike , turn right wonder need faq 'd send i'm sure others take slack andy infante sometimes wish people would put little emphasis '71 bmw r60 5 upon observance law upon 's dod 2426 enforcement calvin coolidge opinions , dammit , nothing anyone else ! ! !
robinson cogsci berkeley edu \( michael robinson \) subject cultural enquiries organization institute cognitive studies , u c berkeley lines 14 nntp posting host cogsci berkeley edu article 1993apr5 aber ac uk azw aber ac uk \( andy woodward \) writes getting bored winding americans like bombing fish barrel little children market \( irish \? hard keep really english types straight \) michael robinson uucp ucbvax ! cogsci ! robinson internet robinson cogsci berkeley edu
svoboda rtsg mot com \( david svoboda \) subject another question synthetic nntp posting host corolla18 organization motorola inc , cellular infrastructure group lines 26 article 1993apr2 spectrum xerox com cooley xerox com writes article news arc nasa gov , howland noc2 arc nasa gov \( curt howland \) writes castrol contain teflon , gets greater lubrication bonding metal surfaces engine , thus making metal ride rather metal metal contact know also reduces acid contact metal , seems likely something forms resin mean 's teflon based ptfe slick 50 teflon either , 's still teflon based teflon dupont owned ptfe slick 50 indeed use dupont teflon , though brands stuff may use imported ptfe another brand teflon , trade name , always capitalized \( dupont disclaims benefits ptfe oil supply internal combustion engines , btw \) dave svoboda \( svoboda void rtsg mot com \) 're bad bone ! 90 concours 1000 \( mmmmmmmmmm ! \) bad bone ! 84 rz 350 \( ring ding \) \( woops ! \) universally feared ama 583905 dod 0330 cog 939 \( chicago \) denizen
mcguire cs utexas edu \( tommy marcus mcguire \) subject countersteering faq please post article earth organization cs dept , university texas austin lines 54 nntp posting host earth cs utexas edu article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu \( andrew infante \) writes article 05apr93 0049 unbvm1 csd unb ca c70a unb ca \( c70a000 \) writes article c4zkcl fgc ux1 cso uiuc edu eric ux1 cso uiuc edu \( 93cbr900rr \) writes would someone please post countersteering faq awful ummm , push right handle bike speed bike turns left , methinks bike problem really ! \? methinks somethings wrong bike perhaps meant pull \? pushing right side handlebars send left really bike , turn right wonder need faq 'd send i'm sure others take slack andy infante sometimes wish people would put little emphasis oh , lord came reason , 've discovered pulling wrong side handlebars \( rather pushing wrong side , get meaning \) provides feeling greater control example , rather pushing right side lean right turn right \( hi , ! \) , pulling left side least get leaned right feels secure less counter intuitive maybe need psychological help v2 0 anyone else find ironic weekend night msf class , n't mention countersteering first day riding \? tommy mcguire , 's going hit head door frames rest evening , leaning tight turns mcguire cs utexas edu mcguire austin ibm com append appropriate disclaimer outgoing public information , identifying personal independent ibm
karish gondwana stanford edu \( chuck karish \) subject living organization mindcraft , inc lines 31 article odin corp sgi com amc crash wpd sgi com \( allan \) writes article 4847 eos arc nasa gov , phil eos arc nasa gov \( phil stone \) writes alan , nothing personal , object statement \( many rides alan describing \) pushing envelope necessarily equal taking insane chances moreover , two riders riding together speed , one might riding well beyond abilities may safety margin left oh come phil 're excellent rider , still take plenty chances n't tell 's skill keeps getting 's lot luck thrown 're good rider lucky one hope luck holds allan , know circumstances several falls ride fell next behind , made error judgement riding fast knew road damp , reacted badly surprised oncoming car crash due factors subject control wo n't deny 's combination luck skill involved us , seems 're blaming bad luck pain warranted chuck karish karish mindcraft com \( 415 \) 323 9000 karish pangea stanford edu
karish gondwana stanford edu \( chuck karish \) subject recommended bike tall beginner organization mindcraft , inc distribution usa lines 13 article sdcc12 ucsd edu sdcc3 ucsd edu \( john \) writes looking advice bikes check 6'4 tall , find legs hips bent bikes ridden \( many admittedly \) bikes built taller rider \? 's plenty kawasaki bit short braking department spirited street riding , enough dirt less agressive street stuff chuck karish karish mindcraft com \( 415 \) 323 9000 karish pangea stanford edu
corp mot com \( william \) subject drinking riding organization motorola nntp posting host corp mot com lines 43 general rule thumb sobriety cycling \? couple hours feel sober \? \? work drink tonight , n't ride tomorrow \? thread brings back expensive day traffic court years ago waiting turn state case plea going 75 55 cage , opportunity listen creative excuses offered judge others listening number well , passing slow truck suddenly speed versions , decided judge heard every story book less impressed young , rather burley looking guy , read rather drill looking ohio state patrol trooper clocked riding motorcycle speed 110 mph 55 mph zone also noted defendant \( motorcycle rider \) alcohol breath , cited offence judge looked half glasses end nose said voice well son , pretty fast speeds riding motorcycle say self \? well sir , replied , couple beers way home offered nothing less couple beers 110 mph way home judge moved simplicity response , fined maximum case \( plus court costs course \) ordered attend drivers training school n't america great \? \? bill 81 cb900c motorola , sps columbus , oh disclaimers apply
leavitt cs umd edu \( mr bill \) subject big big \( 1st bike \) organization cafe edge universe lines 42 azw aber ac uk \( andy woodward \) writes azw weight size rough roads definite starts azw drift , aint going catch leavitt cs umd edu \( mr bill \) says mrb 're riding hard enough concern , yes , mrb lighter bike beneficial ai598 cleveland freenet edu \( mike sturdevant \) writes ms 're riding hard enough concern , ms fun \? sure 've never much , anybody 's attended spectacular attest \) get great deal satisfaction riding fast , yet fast overly concerned able maintain clean line i'm still known slide occasional tire , much prefer stay sticky side line 've found n't heal well used days btw , 's knee \? mrb anyway likely catch 400 250 \? necessarily mrb tires , road surface rider ability much important criteria ms actually , big horsepower likely get trouble ms starts drift puny body mass pushing stuff well ms placed push 80 90 horsepower lot straighten change ms beneficial way trajectory bike rider system 's quite true another plus 500 bike , original thread , think damn circular threads \) ms go fast take chances ms ms mike mr bill bill leavitt , 224 '82 cbx white lightning , '82 gs850g leavitt cs umd edu '76 little honda , '68 lone star sick leave dod ama nia '69 impala convertible incredible hulk , others hmmm , thought bore stroke technique ! michael bain , 757
laszlo eclipse cs colorado edu \( laszlo nemeth \) subject protective gear nntp posting host eclipse cs colorado edu organization university colorado boulder , pizza disposal group lines 19 article c4wkfs bc1 eskimo com , maven eskimo com \( norman hamer \) writes question day protective gear important \? 've got good helmet \( shoei rf200 \) good , thick jacket \( leather gold \) pair really cheap leather gloves next purchase \? better gloves , boots , leather pants , \? condom 500 times go accident asked wearing protection responces yes wearing condom laz
essbaum rchland vnet ibm com \( alexander essbaum \) subject countersteering faq please post disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host florida rchland ibm com organization ibm rochester lines 18 article news duke edu , infante acpub duke edu \( andrew infante \) writes article 05apr93 0049 unbvm1 csd unb ca c70a unb ca \( c70a000 \) writes article c4zkcl fgc ux1 cso uiuc edu eric ux1 cso uiuc edu \( 93cbr900rr \) writes would someone please post countersteering faq awful time debating someone push right handle motorcycle turning left ca n't explain \( well least \) happens please help post faq need convert ummm , push right handle bike speed bike turns left , methinks bike problem pushing right side handlebars send left i'm sure others take slack oh yes , i'm quite sure \) axel
car377 cbnewsj cb att com \( charles rogers \) subject wo n't getting low rider year organization summary ergonomics gas tanks keywords lines 30 article 1993mar30 923 pb2esac uucp , pb2esac uucp \( peter ahrens \) writes article 1993mar29 cbnewsj cb att com car377 cbnewsj cb att com \( charles rogers \) writes planned get hd year instead took delivery brand new male offspring \( er \) last monday sounds like planning last year , given harley davidson 's product delivery lag human cycle perhaps planning \) pete , still got cbx \? nice hear ! , yes , finally figure happens , taken steps ensure repetition would low drag bars way rad fj , ergonomic constraints would contraceptive consequences \? ouch \) brings mind one recommendations hurt study rear gas tank close proximity highly prized easily damaged anatomy , hurt et al recommended manufacturers build tank reduce , er , step function provided rider 's body slides seat onto gas tank unfortunate event bike stops suddenly rider n't think 's really inspiring manufacturers taken advice heart design bikes like cbr900rr chuck rogers car377 torreys att com car377 cbnewsj att com
netcom com \( daniel matejka \) subject speeding ticket chp organization netcom online communication services lines 47 article agate berkeley edu downey homer cs berkeley edu \( allen b downey \) writes fight ticket california edition david brown 1st ed berkeley , ca press , 1982 second edition \( ucb 's library \) good luck let us know goes daniel matejka writes fourth edition , 's probably also high ucb 's gotta list article mcimail com 0005111312 mcimail com \( peter nesbitt \) writes riding work last week via hwy 12 , 80 , pulled chp black white 76 gas station canyon road officer stated looked like going kinda fast coming highway 12 must going least 70 75 said okay , agree disagree anything said beat ticket \? personally , think 's duty citizen make much trouble possible , maybe 'll give leave us alone someday soon cop certainly within legal rights nail guessing speed mr brown \( author fight ticket \) mentions oakland judge convicted officer 's testimony driver 's car sounded like driven excessive speed pay state insurance company , take court creative personally , 've never way seen anyone win , judge always listens politely n't seen many attempts could try argument since bikes shorter cars whose speed nice officer accustomed guessing , therefore appear away , speed appears greater actually left step two , get idea make convincing , theoretically 're supposed win 've never tried proving cop mistaken get see poor biker try mixing various facts like maximum acceleration \( cop \) car , distance cop pacing , end demonstrating could n't possibly going fast cop suggested 'd brought diagrams calculator prepared lost keep mind cops time , word better maybe , though , n't guess fast bikes going time besides , guy n't speak english well , ended absolutely confounding judge , cop , everyone else room 'd recently twit gun quota ahem ok , i'm better maybe 'd presentation polished maybe get applause
carter ecf toronto edu \( carter edward \) subject dod \( tm \) newbie bike choice article ecf organization university toronto , engineering computing facility lines 20 article news ysu edu ak296 yfn ysu edu \( john r daker \) writes propose official dod newbie bike choice \( tm \) zx 11 8 nothing like giving newbies land rocket practice offers enough power novice rider safely accelerate harms way situations experienced rider would use complex avoidance yup accelerate right back 18 wheel truck um 's easiest way get newbies road \? \) regards , ted university toronto computer engineering '89 i'm taking ride best friend dod
cjackson adobe com \( curtis jackson \) subject cultural enquiries organization adobe systems incorporated , mountain view lines 32 like use backs instead minds make living usually ignorant intolerant anything outside group level understanding seems confusion rednecks white trash confusion understandable , substantial overlap two sets let see clarify rednecks primarily use backs instead minds make living usually somewhat ignorant \( somebody 's standards , anyway \) never held education basic reading writing math skills important eventual note say stupid , ignorant \( might stupid , high percentage group \) white trash white trash fit stereotype referred word better black person ever met , added white trash mean hell father genuinely lazy \( work qualified \) , good nothing , dishonest , white people mean snakes like pig boys deliverance may may rednecks , sure hell white trash white trash assuredly intolerant anything outside group level understanding rednecks may may curtis jackson cjackson mv us adobe com '91 hawk gt '81 maxim 650 dod 0721 kotb '91 black lab mix studley doright '92 collie golden george justification taking away individuals' freedom guise public safety thomas jefferson
tony morgan demon co uk \( tony kidson \) subject protective gear distribution world organization modem palace reply tony morgan demon co uk x newsreader simple news 1 90 \( ka9q dis 1 21 \) lines 26 article 1993apr5 rd hydro ca jlevine rd hydro ca writes article c4wkfs bc1 eskimo com maven eskimo com \( norman hamer \) writes question day protective gear important \? 've got good helmet \( shoei rf200 \) good , thick jacket \( leather gold \) pair really cheap leather gloves next purchase \? better gloves , boots , leather pants , \? would go gloves 's whole lot life skin hands yup ! ruins sex life ! tony tony kidson pgp 2 2 key request voice 44 81 466 5127 morgan towers , cat move e mail \( order \) morgan road , 've take top tony morgan demon co uk bromley , machine tny cix compulink co uk england br1 3qe honda st1100 dod 0801 100024 301 compuserve com
cbnewsg cb att com \( james j dutton \) subject twit \( oh joy ! \) organization distribution na lines 20 article 1993apr2 spectrum xerox com cooley xerox com writes yo , assholes hope kidding 's exactly kind gets many motorcyclist killed look leather clad ! watch swear pretend n't exist change lanes really find necesary wreck others enjoyment road boost ego , truely aaron disgruntled volvo drivers rebelling \? 's 'r' us doh ai n't 's 'r' us zx 10 ama dod ai n't
cbnewsg cb att com \( james j dutton \) subject question quantum organization distribution na lines 30 article ms uky edu amir ms uky edu \( amir \) writes way want however , following problem chin hangs bottom helmet curious know whether would still problem switch extra large size \? particular , anyone tell certain , outer shell quantum size x large different \( larger etc \) helmet size large \? inner padding foam x large one 's head fits little deeper helmet , thus one 's chin would stick \? true old arthur helmets namely , chin hangs little bottom large helmet , x large \( x large snug large \) dealer willing replace helmet additional cost \( e shipping \) , want make sure 1 \) x large fact little bigger chin hang 2 \) much looser head fit x large \? anyone recent experience helmet , please let hear \( e mail \) asap thank much amir i'm sure helmet chin questions might want write jay c tonight show burbank calif good luck 's 'r' us doh ai n't 's 'r' us zx 10 ama dod ai n't
speedy engr latech edu \( speedy mercer \) subject living organization louisiana tech university lines 25 nntp posting host bhm116e spc engr latech edu article rchland ibm com pooder rchland vnet ibm com \( \) writes article 05apr93 0049 unbvm1 csd unb ca , c70a000 c70a unb ca writes right ankle kept riding , broke right leg two places knee surgery navy back 77 doctors put cast ass ankle method dohc 450 honda time found sliding back seat could use heel \( mention left leg \? \) operate shift would hook end lever heel lift entire leg shifts drop leg lever shifts forget , took way much finesse leg ! crutches bungee right side bike top resting passenger peg right sticking hole crutches every day rode 10 miles physical therapy \( sessions \) doc would give hell riding bike much less riding condition n't stop tho ! b p btw bike assembled second floor barracks room rode stairs completed ! paid opinion ! dr speed suzuki gs850g dod 8177
essbaum rchland vnet ibm com \( alexander essbaum \) subject speeding ticket chp disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host florida rchland ibm com organization ibm rochester lines 37 article netcom com , netcom com \( daniel matejka \) writes article agate berkeley edu downey homer cs berkeley edu \( allen b downey \) writes fight ticket california edition david brown 1st ed berkeley , ca press , 1982 second edition \( ucb 's library \) good luck let us know goes daniel matejka writes beat ticket \? personally , think 's duty citizen make much trouble possible , maybe 'll give leave us alone someday soon cop certainly within legal rights nail guessing speed mr brown \( author fight ticket \) mentions oakland judge convicted officer 's testimony driver 's car sounded like driven excessive speed cough choke \? ! \? cop gave ticket sounding like speeding 'd probably show court without lawyer simply sounding like speeding ridiculous found guilty 'd appeal show lawyer cop n't one vascar \( car plane \) radar , , electronic speed measuring device pace i'm within 15mph limit 'd go court accept cop seeing going excessively fast \( like 25 limit \) looked like going 70 55 zone beyond reasonable doubt granted may well lose case 70 55 measured eye \? \? \? take court sure axel
bgardner bambam es com \( blaine gardner \) subject protective gear article dsd 1993apr6 organization evans sutherland computer corporation lines 13 nntp posting host bambam article c4wkfs bc1 eskimo com maven eskimo com \( norman hamer \) writes question day protective gear important \? 've got good helmet \( shoei rf200 \) good , thick jacket \( leather gold \) pair really cheap leather gloves next purchase \? better gloves , boots , leather pants , \? 's favorite body part \? \) blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com
bgardner bambam es com \( blaine gardner \) subject wo n't getting low rider year keywords article dsd 1993apr6 organization evans sutherland computer corporation lines 23 nntp posting host bambam article 1993apr5 cbnewsj cb att com car377 cbnewsj cb att com \( charles rogers \) writes article 1993mar30 923 pb2esac uucp , pb2esac uucp \( peter ahrens \) writes would low drag bars way rad fj , ergonomic constraints would contraceptive consequences \? ouch \) brings mind one recommendations hurt study rear gas tank close proximity highly prized easily damaged anatomy , hurt et al recommended manufacturers build tank reduce , er , step function provided rider 's body slides seat onto gas tank unfortunate event bike stops suddenly rider n't think 's really inspiring manufacturers taken advice heart design bikes like cbr900rr dunno , old tank seat junction nice smooth travel way forward , 'd collect top triple clamp sensitive area 'd hate make choice , think 'd prefer fj 's gas tank \) blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com
max queernet org \( max j \) subject speeding ticket chp organization queernet lines 10 interesting 'd fight ticket first , 's 50 50 chance cop wo n't show secondly , show , point lied \( \) ticket 70 \? beleive yo 're charged going 15mph posted speed 's severe ticket could n't p going 70 , right \? ! max queernet org max j uunet , sgi ! ! max protect want
pnakada oracle com \( paul \) subject eating riding drinking riding article pnakada pnakada organization oracle corporation , redwood shores , ca lines 14 nntp posting host pnakada us oracle com x disclaimer message written unauthenticated user oracle corporation opinions expressed user necessarily oracle 's feeling eating riding \? went riding weekend , got little carried away pie whole ride back felt sluggish certainly much alert ride i'm sure others feeling , strangest thing eating usually turnaround point weekend rides , little snack 'd much rather get full sluggish feeling closer home paul paul oracle corporation pnakada oracle com dod '91 '90 k75s
nelson seahunt imat com \( michael nelson \) subject protective gear nntp posting host seahunt imat com organization seahunt , san francisco ca lines 15 article 1993apr5 rd hydro ca jlevine rd hydro ca \( jody levine \) writes i'm still looking good gloves , , ones loose find new ones , suggest donating ones family france grin michael michael nelson 1993 cbr900rr internet nelson seahunt imat com dod 0735
gharriso hpcc01 corp hp com \( graeme harrison \) subject goldwing performance organization hp corporate notes server lines 36 hpcc01 rec motorcycles stafford vax2 winona msus edu \( john stafford \) 11 06 apr 1 , 1993 article transfer stratus com , beast cac stratus com \( r craig dodson \) wrote summary back motorcyclist , run 1 4 13 07 100 mph interestingly enough , bikes faster harleys listed much faster , john stafford minnesota state university winona standard disclaimers apply '84 hit traps 13 34 according cycle magazine yeah , faster harleys first couple years bottom got '86 w miles odometer 5k may 1990 would ask 4500 almost 16k miles 's 50 new would cost think '86 originally sold 6500 brand new , sure 's case depreciated 30 77 7 years mere 2000 big fat hairy deal ! based know , harleys tend far initial bike comes parts service harleys holding value better n't always wash away knocks much slower \) according peter egan released cycle world real dog pillions wife money dog n't much graeme harrison , hewlett packard co , communications components division , 350 w rd , san jose , ca 95131 \( gharriso hpcc01 corp hp com \) dod 649
marty ca boeing com \( marty \) subject data logging \? organization boeing commercial airplane support lines 19 greetings someone steer towards sources information vehicle data logging systems \? particular , would like build buy \( little \) system small enough fit motorcycle take input various sensors \( pressure , 's , acceleration , rpm , o2 sensor \) , digitize record later analysis please email info get anything interesting , 'll compile get net thanks marty marty carter ca boeing com seattle , wa 82 gpz750 , 82 , 88 hawk gt , 90 ama , msf , , forget said
manes magpie linknet com \( steve manes \) subject drinking riding organization manes associates , nyc x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 17 norman hamer \( maven eskimo com \) wrote general rule thumb sobriety cycling \? couple hours feel sober \? \? work drink tonight , n't ride tomorrow \? depends badly want live faa says eight hours , bottle throttle pilots recommends twenty four hours specify blood alcohol level 0 4 legally drunk , think , twice strict dwi btw , alcohol blood fixed rate one beer hour keep blood alcohol level barely street legal coffee , bar tricks wo n't speed fool mr ranger stephen manes manes magpie linknet com manes associates new york , ny , usa
todd uucp \( todd doolittle \) subject fork seals distribution world organization organization lines 23 i'm undertake changing fork seals '88 ex500 manual says need following tools kawasaki 183 \( handle looking thing illustration \) 1057 \( type adapter end handle \) 1091 illustration tool manual refers kawasaki tool 1058 oil seal bearing remover necessary tools \? considering dealers around n't manual , fork seals , turn signal assembly stock really doubt tools stock 'd really like get done week help would appreciated always vela acs oakland edu ! ! todd '88 bike sold without todd doolittle red line troy , mi '88 ex500 dod
jae w chang andrew cmu edu subject bmw r65 info wanted organization junior , electrical computer engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 14 nntp posting host po2 andrew cmu edu hi , someone selling bmw r65 \( think 's '84 \) w 15k miles 2200 says 's great condition perfect shape 's got 2 hard saddle bags , good deal \? seems like awesome deal assuming everything says true \? thanks , jae jae cmu edu
todd uucp \( todd doolittle \) subject motorcycle courier \( summer job \) distribution world organization organization lines 37 article west west sun com gaijin ale japan sun com \( john little nihon sun repair depot \) writes article 97 uupcb compdyn questor org ryan cousineau compdyn questor org \( ryan cousineau \) writes think 've found ultimate summer job 's dangerous , involves motorcycles , requires high speeds traffic , pays well question follows anyone done sort work \? experience \? stuff deleted get good type indexed areas 're likely work always carry plenty black plastic bin liners check local fire department buddy small map books amazing ! compact , easy use \( folding \) even cross reference section match current cross streets cross streets want go details quickest route gave extra laying around know people i'm really sure supposed give sell \( police may also something similar \) john little gaijin japan sun com sun microsystems atsugi , japan vela acs oakland edu ! ! todd '88 bike sold without todd doolittle red line troy , mi '88 ex500 dod
sanjay kin lap upenn edu \( sanjay sinha \) subject help backpack keywords backpack , , knee protection organization university pennsylvania , language analysis center lines 33 nntp posting host kin lap upenn edu summer approaches , usual preparations made thinking going camping trips local state forests planning get backpack next question shall carry thing bike , given metal frame big backrest \( approx 12 high \) hoping would able bungee cord backpack backrest one experiences experimentation \? taking idea , would happen backpack fully loaded full load \( \) load distribution going severly affected \? bike perform load back rest really secure , shifting , still increase chances surfing \? collective r wisdom requested p really ca n't afford leather pants boots jeans make think knee protectors use one l l bean like sells bad idea \( tm \) equivalents \? '81 cb650 dod would give right arm !
us oracle com \( greg doherty \) subject bmw '90 sale distribution ca organization oracle corporation lines 11 originator us oracle com nntp posting host us oracle com x disclaimer message written unauthenticated user oracle corporation opinions expressed user necessarily oracle posted friend , please reply holonet net 1990 bmw sale asking 5900 00 best offer bike full faring great touring 30k miles well cared bike comes one hard saddle bag \( left one right side bag stolen \) , tank bag \( large one \) , box alarm interested \? please drop line das
dean fringe rain com \( dean woodward \) subject drinking riding organization organization mass confusion lines 46 mjmuise 1302 watstar uwaterloo ca \( mike muise \) writes article c4wkbp b9w eskimo com , maven eskimo com \( norman hamer \) writes general rule thumb sobriety cycling \? couple hours feel sober \? \? work drink tonight , n't ride tomorrow \? 1 hr drink first 4 drinks 1 5 hours drink next 6 drinks 2 hours drink rest took alcohol server 's class years ago \( hey employer paid \) told 1 drink hour rule written 80 proof booze 195 pound person mind drinking gold , weighing 140 , obviously get drunk faster theoretical person mentioned worse , imagine rum coke made 151 mind , 's getting drunk drive car may riding month , plan evenings rigid exclusive statement either n't drink , n't ride pretty simple fairly cautious guidelines , work even happen low tolerance body mass think cops n't dare drink drive \( tm \) commercials usually say 1hr drink general , 5 drinks 5 hrs , could well legal limit watch mike sorry , mike , believe policy works best fertilizer , even plan drive home nice safe cage mike muise mjmuise 1302 watstar uwaterloo ca quotes , jokes , electrical engineering , university waterloo disclaimer , fear dean woodward want step world \? dean fringe rain com 's socio psychotic state bliss '82 virago 920 guns'n'roses , 'my world' dod 0866
dean fringe rain com \( dean woodward \) subject drinking riding organization organization mass confusion lines 36 cjackson adobe com \( curtis jackson \) writes article mjmuise 38 1302 watstar uwaterloo ca mjmuise 1302 wats think cops n't dare drink drive \( tm \) commercials usually say 1hr drink general , 5 drinks 5 hrs , could well legal limit watch indeed , especially smart eat food drink food coating stomach lining \( especially things like milk \) temporarily retard absorption alcohol food digested , absorption proceed , actually \( e , higher instantaneous \) would drunk 1 drink hr empty stomach put another way , food cause less drunk drinking empty stomach early five hours , drunk drinking empty stomach later five hours curtis jackson cjackson mv us adobe com '91 hawk gt '81 maxim 650 dod 0721 kotb '91 black lab mix studley doright '92 collie golden george justification taking away individuals' freedom guise public safety thomas jefferson , alcohol server 's class absolute eating drinking slow absorption 15 minutes gives time eat , slam one beer , ride like hell try make home 10 minutes left paying , helmet gloves , starting bike dean woodward want step world \? dean fringe rain com 's socio psychotic state bliss '82 virago 920 guns'n'roses , 'my world' dod 0866
cleveland freenet edu \( tom kelly \) subject address \? article usenet organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 6 nntp posting host slc10 ins cwru edu anyone current moto guzzi national owners club address please e mail thanks advance ! k
ramage ece scarolina edu \( dan ramage \) subject help backpack keywords backpack , , knee protection article weber ramage organization usc department computer science lines 33 sanjay kin lap upenn edu \( sanjay sinha \) writes summer approaches , usual preparations made thinking going camping trips local state forests planning get backpack next question shall carry thing bike , given metal frame big backrest \( approx 12 high \) hoping would able bungee cord backpack backrest one experiences experimentation \? taking idea , would happen backpack fully loaded full load \( \) load distribution going severly affected \? bike perform load back rest really secure , shifting , still increase chances surfing \? ride bike regularly classes book bag take shoulder straps bag , hook around rear turn signals works fine probably want attach bungee cord keep shifting one side another dan ramage ramage charlie ece scarolina edu '86 vulcan 750 dod wanted harley , n't lottery yet bats smart , use radar letterman
subject new hudson 1929 questions emd ham almanac bc ca distribution world organization robert smits lines 33 davide dcs qmw ac uk \( dave edmondson \) writes dave tharp cds \( davet interceptor cds tek com \) wrote article ham almanac bc ca emd ham almanac bc ca writes one main designers , bert le , broke many records late 's early 20 's bert le set records indians , including 107 5 mph november 1921 , 61 3 racing model must busy lad , also tuner round guru jap worked george someone post details illustrated motorcycles , sounds like book ought copy sure , illustrated encyclopedia motorcycles , edited erwin , published publishing group limited , astronaut house , road , , middlesex , england first published 1977 , mine reprinted 1978 cost pounds 5 95 uk , though paid 18 50 canadian dollars idea whether 's still print perhaps could let net know bob robert smits ladysmith bc lucas built weapons , wars emd ham almanac bc ca would never start , either
ivan erich triumf ca \( ivan reid \) subject organization triumf tri university meson facility lines 29 distribution world nntp posting host erich triumf ca keywords c sharp news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article 1993apr2 rd hydro ca , jlevine rd hydro ca \( jody levine \) writes article i88 isc com jeq lachman com \( jonathan e quist \) writes article 1993mar31 rchland ibm com pooder msus1 msus edu writes sampled recently using unauthorized software , inspector general said new report inspector general \? make way , , inspector general ! \( hail , hail , sky \) behold lord high executioner , 's something else 've already discussed e mail jonathan 's film inspector general \) , danny kaye , although ca n't quote name leading lady \( n't \( \) jonathan thinks earlier russian film movies tv says based \( yes , jonathan , looked two 's \) story ivan reid , paul scherrer institute , ch ivan cvax psi ch gsx600f , rg250wd si 2 66 porsche pass ! dod 484
brian vaughan um cc umich edu \( brian vaughan \) subject sale 1988 kawasaki ex 500 \( michigan \) article um brian vaughan 1 distribution world organization university michigan lines 10 nntp posting host itd umich edu sale 1988 kawasaki ex 500 miles excellent condition kept garage asking 2200 music rank file already earned contempt given large brain mistake , since spinal cord would fully suffice albert einstein brian vaughan brian vaughan um cc umich edu
tcora pica army mil \( tom coradeschi \) subject beer unto organization elect armts div , us army armt rde ctr , picatinny arsenal , nj lines 23 nntp posting host b329 gator 3 pica army mil article erich triumf ca , ivan erich triumf ca \( ivan reid \) wrote article tcora b329 gator 1 pica army mil , tcora pica army mil \( tom coradeschi \) writes problem inews domain file \( mx crew \) wrote information \( flame war please \) budweiser beer old \( nowadays \? \? know german word \) czechoslovakia budweiser \( pronounced bud var \) , short ago \( jan 1st \? \) split czech republic slovakia actually , think couple years official name czech republics sheesh ! n't guys get cnn \? \? cnn tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet like herd performing elephants diarrhea massive , difficult redirect , awe inspiring , entertaining , source mind boggling amounts excrement least expect gene spafford , 1992
apollo hp com \( steven \) subject speeding ticket chp article apollo organization hewlett packard company , chelmsford , lines 18 nntp posting host ch apollo hp com article gaia ucs orst edu , edu \( jerry \) writes peter nesbitt \( 0005111312 mcimail com \) wrote riding work last week via hwy 12 , 80 , pulled chp black white 76 gas station canyon road officer stated looked like going kinda fast coming highway 12 must going least 70 75 said okay , agree disagree anything said 1 \) next time get cop , never never never admit anything 2 \) n't volunteer information 3 \) question ask cop , like looked like going kinda fast coming highway 12 must going least 70 75 \? correct reponse deny technique employed police help establish guilt , especially \( 9 times 10 \) sure speeding cop unsure may difference letting hook getting tissue hope helps next time steven
ucsu colorado edu \( joel \) subject identify bike article colorado 1993apr6 reply ucsu colorado edu organization department lines 17 nntp posting host colorado edu article 1993apr6 adobe com cjackson adobe com \( curtis jackson \) writes article 1993apr5 ucsu colorado edu coburnn spot colorado edu \( nicholas coburn \) writes first thought \( hawk modified two brothers racing \) , think made huge tank additionally , think 've seen bike white , sea green stripe , 've seen bike numerous times hall cu , thought race cbr n't see ec parking lot \( buzzed way home , 1 2 block route ! \) gone single sided swingarm available cbr \? would imagine , kinda quick tire changes first saw , assumed bike repainted cover crash damage joel
ranck joesbar cc vt edu \( wm l ranck \) subject help backpack organization virginia tech , blacksburg , virginia lines 20 nntp posting host joesbar cc vt edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 sanjay sinha \( sanjay kin lap upenn edu \) wrote next question shall carry thing bike , given metal frame big backrest \( approx 12 high \) hoping would able bungee cord backpack backrest one experiences experimentation \? put pack pillion bungee backrest possible able bungee behind backrest , make sure n't bend break anything like rear fender bill ranck ranck joesbar cc vt edu cars making sudden u turn dangerous may cut entirely , blocking whole leaving place go pg 21 , msf motorcycle operator manual , sixth rev 1991
sprattli azores crd ge com \( rod sprattling \) subject kawi zephyr \? \( vision vs gpz 550 \) article crdnns reply sprattli azores crd ge com \( rod sprattling \) organization ge corp r center , schenectady ny lines 31 nntp posting host azores crd ge com article 1993apr4 pro cts com , shadow pro cts com writes 1993apr3 organpipe uug arizona edu asphaug lpl arizona edu \( erik asphaug x2773 \) writes way , short lived zephyr essentially gpz 550 , zephyr discontinued \? heard something problem name , never hear anything certain ford anemic mid sized car name back last decade rented one car would ruin name zephyr use rod roderick sprattling job great , time small sprattli azores crd ge com feet fire back wall
nelson seahunt imat com \( michael nelson \) subject wo n't getting low rider year keywords article myrddin organization seahunt , san francisco ca lines 29 nntp posting host seahunt imat com article 1993apr5 cbnewsj cb att com car377 cbnewsj cb att com \( charles rogers \) writes ouch \) brings mind one recommendations hurt study rear gas tank close proximity highly prized easily damaged anatomy , hurt et al recommended manufacturers build tank reduce , er , step function provided rider 's body slides seat onto gas tank unfortunate event bike stops suddenly rider n't think 's really inspiring manufacturers taken advice heart design bikes like cbr900rr i'm riding 900rr , goodies already tank , design corbin seat tends move forward would n't major danger one 's due accelerating stopped tank \? 're already , would n't impact problem , would \? michael michael nelson 1993 cbr900rr internet nelson seahunt imat com dod 0735
behanna phoenix syl nj nec com \( chris behanna \) subject thoughts 1982 yamaha seca turbo \? article research 1993apr6 organization nec systems laboratory , inc lines 19 article skyfox howp skyfox writes wondering anybody knows anything yamaha seca turbo i'm considering buying used 1982 seca turbo 1300 canadian \( 1000 us \) 30 , 000 km first bike comments \? n't nab , fairly rare bikes , adequate putting big brown stripe shorts power wheelie appeal \? thought would really bad things stock clutch n't task barnett take care back tire wears quickly \( gee , wonder \? \) , induction system bear work later , chris behanna dod 114 1983 h fxwg wide glide jubilee 's red lady behanna syl nj nec com 1975 cb360t baby bike disclaimer would nec 1991 zx 11 pending delivery agree anyway \? raised pack wild corn dogs
lusky ccwf cc utexas edu \( jonathan r lusky \) subject tools tools tools article ra 1993apr6 877 organization university texas austin , austin tx lines 25 article 1993apr5 research nj nec com behanna phoenix syl nj nec com \( chris behanna \) writes 're subject , anyone else noticed 1 2 deep well craftsman 's 60 sae deep well set small fit 1 2 bolt nut \? took socket exchange , every ! one 1 2 deep well sockets rack exact problem ! ! ! looking socket , appears craftsman 's attempted imitate drive piece , account extra clearance needed inside socket never problem mine sure nut bolt trying really 1 2 hex \? slightly larger 1 2 wrench wo n't fit gm nut \( 91 gmc pickup several nuts really annoying , metric threads seems body metric , engine sae \) jonathan lusky lusky ccwf cc utexas edu 89 jeep wrangler 258 sale ! 79 rx 7 12a holley 67 camaro rs 350
arnie magnus acs ohio state edu \( arnie skurow \) subject live free , quietly , die article magnus 1993apr6 organization ohio state university lines 14 nntp posting host bottom magnus acs ohio state edu article dartvax dartmouth edu russell p hughes dartmouth edu \( r p hughes \) writes great day ! got back home last night fantastic skiing colorado , put battery back fxstc cleaned plugs , opened petcock , waited minute , hit starter , bingo started like charm ! spent night anticipating first ride du , went morning get state inspection done bike stock \( far \) except hd slash cut pipes , therein lies rub hd slash cut , baloney cuts call , stock mufflers 're sold road use , much louder stock mufflers arnie
cjackson adobe com \( curtis jackson \) subject tracing license plates bdi cagers \? article adobe 1993apr6 organization adobe systems incorporated , mountain view lines 24 morning truck within sight \( within \) 3 miles suddenly forgot existed pulled right front wheel even back edge front passenger door accelerating past trivial enough tap brakes slide behind \( signal , course \) top , little horn blaring \( damn , need ! \) , satisfaction aware surroundings thus surviving enough , especially later pulled alongside bastard made wave anything way memorize license plate offending vehicle get name address owner \? i'm going firebomb houses anything , 'd like write consciousness raising letter two think would good bdi cagers know know live maybe 'd use 4 5 brain cells driving instead usual 3 curtis jackson cjackson mv us adobe com '91 hawk gt '81 maxim 650 dod 0721 kotb '91 black lab mix studley doright '92 collie golden george justification taking away individuals' freedom guise public safety thomas jefferson
terry prcrs prc com \( terry cunningham \) subject cnn california mc helmet law article article prcrs organization prc systems , mclean , va lines 31 wink , blink att com \( jon \( \) \) writes hey ! works could present paragraph virtually member non motorcycling public 'll buy right argument produce favor banning helmetless riding used argue favor banning motorcycles 's matter degree 's absurd ! statement must therefore say argument favor seatbelts airbags argument automobiles argument argument swimming says favor safety precautions argument banning activity precautions apply extrapolating degree ridiculous , would n't normal human activity left therefore non also , even though people ride motorcycles , boat , sail , , climb , ski , fly parachute , hang glide , glide , bungee jump , bike , skate , , , play \( ouch \) , mow lawn , basement , operate heavy machinery , host things would valid motorcycling activities ban little applies things , general public buying banning motorcycles without realizing activity would next unlikely terry cunningham terry rsi prc com donuts ! anything dod 541 dreams ca n't \? homer 2
cjackson adobe com \( curtis jackson \) subject live free , quietly , die article adobe 1993apr6 organization adobe systems incorporated , mountain view lines 15 article dartvax dartmouth edu russell p hughes dartmouth edu \( russell p hughes \) writes start rev 3000 rpm fail cuz register 120 db , max allowed 110 ! fail pipes , gonna next time make numbers believable poor flamebait 120 db getting close sound jumbo jet engine takeoff revs small number yards away certainly right around pain threshold humans way hell state permits 110 db standard curtis jackson cjackson mv us adobe com '91 hawk gt '81 maxim 650 dod 0721 kotb '91 black lab mix studley doright '92 collie golden george justification taking away individuals' freedom guise public safety thomas jefferson
smarmy eng sun com \( elaine leffler \) subject kawi zephyr \? \( vision vs gpz 550 \) keywords zephyr stock forks bad dive article jethro reply smarmy eng sun com distribution world organization sunconnect lines 11 nntp posting host smarmy eng sun com article organpipe uug arizona edu , asphaug lpl arizona edu \( erik asphaug x2773 \) writes way bob , er dave \( sorry ! \) , read review said 550 engine pretty much identical gpz , suspension frame modern fancy piggyback shocks 550 \( 750 , think n't know \) nice , 3 way forks crappy , dive like mad progressive springs installed made huge difference cheap fix , much improvement
davet interceptor cds tek com \( dave tharp cds \) subject put motor together article tekgen organization tektronix colorado data systems , englewood , co lines 32 article 1993apr6 com tcs com \( mark \) writes article mimsy umd edu , leavitt cs \( mr bill \) writes put pistons first lower onto bottom end deleted anybody actually carried procedure \? visualize fewer problems pistons cylinders method , trouble keeping suspended \( especially first two pistons \) working space insert piston pins clips \( especially last two pistons \) certainly possible , quite easy cases , especially two strokes 's common bikes cylinder mounting studs n't prevent cylinder removed engine frame assembled top end indian , easier yet studs base studs , separate head bolts , use little foresight , rags , duct tape , etc keep clips falling , , , etc support cylinder 're inserting pins \( called pins uk \? , 's \? \) dave tharp dod 0751 ca n't wear davet interceptor cds tek com mra 151 indian scout , '88 k75s '48 indian chief ahrma 751 brother chief '75 r90s \( 151 \) '72 tr 2b \( 751 \) ama 524737 're built like rocks '65 r50 2 velorex '57 nsu max take knocks , 1936 bmw r12 \( compulsive 's harleys employer idea joiner \) give grief
klinger ccu umanitoba ca \( jorg klinger \) subject mod zx 11 \? \( zx 11 4 cylinder running hot , \) nntp posting host ccu umanitoba ca organization university manitoba , winnipeg , canada lines 44 1993apr1 exu ericsson se noah ericsson se \( \) writes article 1993apr1 research nj nec com behanna phoenix syl nj nec com \( chris behanna \) writes power \? hmmmmmm , well n't got dyno \( waiting snow melt \) although factory jet kit 4' advance , \( jets 145s , stock 140 , book says 130 calif 150 uk , strange \? \) , n't want fit unless dyno handy 've heard bikes tuned perfection dyno little close edge street use cold morning , bad gas , etc apparently back even track use pays money jorg klinger gsxr1100 new arch eng services lost horizons cr500 think umanitoba , man ca embalmer it175 anonymous lmc ericsson se ericsson , cellular design montreal , canada
joe rider cactus org \( joe senner \) subject johs dhhalden \( 1 \) reply joe rider cactus org distribution na organization lines 20 davet interceptor cds tek com \( dave tharp cds \) writes article 1076 rider uucp joe rider cactus org writes cookson mbunix mitre org \( cookson \) writes bozo posts gifs rec moto postmaster also gonna get 500 copies post mailboxes hey , 's great picture ca n't fault taste , technique chill educate instead getting bunch ditto dave i'm using picture sun , n't sent single message guy looks like get keep joe senner joe rider cactus org austin , tx warning look laser remaining eye posted radioactive research lab \( r h f \)
subject drinking riding bclarke galaxy gov bc ca organization bc systems corporation lines 11 article magpie linknet com , manes magpie linknet com \( steve manes \) writes drinking riding depends badly want live faa says eight hours , bottle throttle pilots recommends twenty four hours specify blood alcohol level 0 4 legally drunk , think , twice strict dwi 0 20 dwi new york \? limit 0 08 ! bruce clarke b c environment e mail bclarke galaxy gov bc ca
subject protective gear bclarke galaxy gov bc ca organization bc systems corporation lines 14 article morgan demon co uk , tony morgan demon co uk \( tony kidson \) writes article 1993apr5 rd hydro ca jlevine rd hydro ca writes article c4wkfs bc1 eskimo com maven eskimo com \( norman hamer \) writes protective gear important \? would go gloves 's whole lot life skin hands yup ! ruins sex life ! sex life , maybe bruce clarke b c environment e mail bclarke galaxy gov bc ca
subject live free , quietly , die russell p hughes dartmouth edu \( russell p hughes \) organization hog heaven x posted internews 1 0b14 dartmouth edu lines 31 great day ! got back home last night fantastic skiing colorado , put battery back fxstc cleaned plugs , opened petcock , waited minute , hit starter , bingo started like charm ! spent night anticipating first ride du , went morning get state inspection done bike stock \( far \) except hd slash cut pipes , went well new hampshire state inspection \( meaning lights worked ok \) dude produces decibel meter tells new nh law mc noise huh \? sez start rev 3000 rpm fail cuz register 120 db , max allowed 110 ! fail pipes , gonna whole seriously pissed bikers round go inspection hey , new experience ! never really felt like menace society ! parked , walked building slight step , narrow look sensed faculty colleagues new intimidating status women 's seemed little longer perhaps imagination sigh need install new bub pipes single fire ignition wonder ! \? russ hughes '92 fxstc dod 6022 \( \) love yeah , 's feeling get like something much motorcycle sonny \( told ed campbell , old friend time \)
parr acs ucalgary ca \( charles parr \) subject insect impacts nntp posting host acs3 acs ucalgary ca organization university calgary , alberta lines 36 article emoryu1 cc emory edu emory edu \( ryan gill \) writes problems small birds large types across road smallish prey \? \? hawk , falcon ever come within 5 feet , lucky \( matter \) noticed , pulled trajectory last moment scared shit nothing like red hawk face , wonder riding nighthawk anything hmmmm \? ryan got male duck chest like kicked instructor accident , eyes tearing hard , loudly , 's quite remarkable able come stop rubber side duck , btw , lived , seemed quite healthy , though sat roadside shook heads minutes bruise went right collar bone way belly button regards , charles dod0 001 rz350 within span last weeks heard elements separate threads , conjoined time , struck together form new chord within hollow echoing gourd unknown net person
wbg festival ed ac uk \( w geake \) subject ec bhp limit vetoed lines 12 according bbc radio morning , uk , denmark , portugal others vetoed proposal limit ec sold bikes 100 bhp reason limit supported accident statistics rare example governmental wisdom limit five year moratorium , specialist manufacturers exempt anyway suspicion trick restrict end market europe triumph , norton \( \? \) \) , bmw , ducati sort dangerous rubbish stalls gatt talks heard first bill univ edinburgh , 12 hp healthy blue exhaust
cbnews cb att com \( edward w mcfarland \) subject speeding ticket chp organization distribution usa lines 53 article netcom com netcom com \( daniel matejka \) writes article agate berkeley edu downey homer cs berkeley edu \( allen b downey \) writes fight ticket california edition david brown 1st ed berkeley , ca press , 1982 second edition \( ucb 's library \) good luck let us know goes daniel matejka writes fourth edition , 's probably also high ucb 's gotta list article mcimail com 0005111312 mcimail com \( peter nesbitt \) writes riding work last week via hwy 12 , 80 , pulled chp black white 76 gas station canyon road officer stated looked like going kinda fast coming highway 12 must going least 70 75 said okay , agree disagree anything said beat ticket \? personally , think 's duty citizen make much trouble possible , maybe 'll give leave us alone someday soon right , every citizen 's right duty force government accountability \( anecdotes deleted \) 've never tried proving cop mistaken get see poor biker try mixing various facts like maximum acceleration \( cop \) car , distance cop pacing , end demonstrating could n't possibly going fast cop suggested 'd brought diagrams calculator prepared lost keep mind cops time , word better also keep mind cops lie court get way ! \( n't get started asking know \) decide fight ready well devise strategy make cop 's story doubtful judge jury 's mind maybe , though , n't guess fast bikes going time besides , guy n't speak english well , ended absolutely confounding judge , cop , everyone else room 'd recently twit gun quota ahem ok , i'm better maybe 'd presentation polished maybe get applause ed mcfarland att com \( \) us marshalls 9 \( corner \) best seat house watch motorcycle roadracing ! passing waving yellow
ivan erich triumf ca \( ivan reid \) subject carrying crutches \( living organization triumf tri university meson facility lines 16 distribution world nntp posting host erich triumf ca news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article usenet ins cwru edu , ai598 cleveland freenet edu \( mike sturdevant \) writes got knee rebuilt got back street bike asap put crutches rack passenger seat hung back long way make sure 're tied tight front hmm , sounds like useful trick 'd keep local cagers least crutch length tail light , give break leg use \? \( broke ankle dirt biking , ended strapping crutches back bike riding lab right ankle , bike started easily hand \) ivan reid , paul scherrer institute , ch ivan cvax psi ch gsx600f , rg250wd beware dod 484
howp skyfox subject thoughts 1982 yamaha seca turbo \? organization university saskatchewan lines 16 nntp posting host usask ca wondering anybody knows anything yamaha seca turbo i'm considering buying used 1982 seca turbo 1300 canadian \( 1000 us \) 30 , 000 km first bike comments \? thanks peter institute space atmospheric studies university saskatchewan , saskatoon , saskatchewan canada \( 306 \) 966 usask ca 1983 ford truck
azw aber ac uk \( andy woodward \) subject still cold , organization university college wales , aberystwyth lines 13 nntp posting host 144 124 112 30 one thing certain , though , still cold 40 minutes , stop hold muffler careful really cold muffler feel fine till leave charred skin peel hands speak experience also \( day \) damage circulation warming hands something hot far best \( fastest safest \) way shove hands sleeves stand like ming five minutes
azw aber ac uk \( andy woodward \) subject still cold , organization university college wales , aberystwyth lines 23 nntp posting host 144 124 112 30 first ride season one thing certain , though , still cold 40 minutes , stop hold muffler got home hours , kept gear half hour house , 100 humidity , wind protection , mix well hell ! warm retired aerostich last month temperature got 40 try living couple years dole , cant afford heating put gear october , abd take may getting bike seems like luxury comparison cos going somewhere warm relative happy cold riding trying kid pain makes worthwhile
azw aber ac uk \( andy woodward \) subject freezing riding organization university college wales , aberystwyth lines 14 nntp posting host 144 124 112 30 every spec keep getting squished , otherwise 's dangerous , 's unpleasant goes cold fatigue , took half hour nap gas station insure would make yeah , much judgement reactions people realise wish patience stop one day 'll pay begin shiver stop warm thoroughly leave till stops , doesnt mean 're ok , means 're danger everyone else road brain body working fast tree grows realise till hit something next stage passing usually means falling
azw aber ac uk \( andy woodward \) subject drinking riding organization university college wales , aberystwyth lines 10 nntp posting host 144 124 112 30 , ca n't ride bike , drive truck home \? judgement motor skills needed pilot moto required cage \? scares sh piece psychology essential long term biker understand people think 'if someone else suffer \? ' assess things purely suffer \? vital concept bike cage interaction
dave dal farra gpz750 bnr ca subject eating riding drinking riding x xxdate tue , 6 apr 93 15 22 03 gmt nntp posting host organization bnr ltd x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d9 lines 30 article pnakada pnakada oracle com paul , pnakada oracle com writes 's feeling eating riding \? went riding weekend , got little carried away pie whole ride back felt sluggish certainly much alert ride i'm sure others feeling , strangest thing eating usually turnaround point weekend rides , little snack 'd much rather get full sluggish feeling closer home paul paul oracle corporation pnakada oracle com dod '91 '90 k75s maintain senses , never eat full meal within 24 hrs ride 've tried slim fast lite ride found lap times around parliament buildings suffered 0 1 secs resultant 70 pound weight loss summer bike 's handling always look forward winter loading obligatory 8 \) dave f 's true say money talks mine spoke said drink ! '
ak296 yfn ysu edu \( john r daker \) subject thoughts 1982 yamaha seca turbo \? organization st elizabeth hospital , youngstown , oh lines 18 reply ak296 yfn ysu edu \( john r daker \) nntp posting host yfn ysu edu previous article , howp skyfox \( \) says wondering anybody knows anything yamaha seca turbo i'm considering buying used 1982 seca turbo 1300 canadian \( 1000 us \) 30 , 000 km first bike comments \? cannot good faith recommend seca turbo power delivery novice official \( tm \) dod newbie bike choice would appropriate wide delivery smooth perfect beginner dod 650 darkman significant problems face cannot solved level thinking created albert einstein eternal champion
jlevine rd hydro ca \( jody levine \) subject insect impacts organization ontario hydro research division lines 64 feel childish article seven east sun com egreen east sun com writes article rd hydro ca , jlevine rd hydro ca \( jody levine \) writes helmetless \? um , way people horseback fast , would probably enjoy eating bugs , anyway every bit fast dirtbike , right terrain eat flies , thank mentioned \? 're talking highway speeds go 70mph dirtbike feel free contribute 're supposed keep windscreen go \? would n't jeep n't friend mine bought one warning stickers little 4 \( guess 's becuase 's big 4 wheeler \) anyway , 's written ten places windshield remain times , looks like 've made pain put anyway , says fair , admit would similar matter drive jeep highway bikers may participate discussion , 're probably far , maintain topic interest primarily bikers snow skis bugs , poeple go fast wear goggles helmetless motorcyclists notice ed picked insignificant \( lower case part \) two parts statement besides , around quite rare see bikers wear goggles street 's either full face shield , open face either nothing sunglasses experience bicycling contact lenses sunglasses says non sunglasses almost nothing keep crap ones eyes question still stands cruiser riders negligible helmets stand highway 75 mph buggy , summer evenings \? helmetless ! ok , ok , fine , whatever say , lets make stick point 've road stop every half hour clean shield many bugs \( jacket would blood mess \) 'd see guys shorty helmets , goggles , long tight shirts cruising along bikes lets really specific time , even ed understands think bugs one 's face fun , reasons \? image \? laziness \? make point freedom bug \? 've bike like jody levine dod 275 kv got pf jody p levine hydro ca ride toronto , ontario , canada
jlevine rd hydro ca \( jody levine \) subject drinking riding \( , gross \) organization ontario hydro research division lines 16 article mjmuise 38 1302 watstar uwaterloo ca mjmuise 1302 watstar uwaterloo ca \( mike muise \) writes 1 hr drink first 4 drinks 1 5 hours drink next 6 drinks 2 hours drink rest case goes first four , fifth one usually makes throw last two needless say , n't drink much anymore , last time happened second year undergrad silly edu breath , pretty bad breath 've bike like jody levine dod 275 kv got pf jody p levine hydro ca ride toronto , ontario , canada
jlevine rd hydro ca \( jody levine \) subject countersteering faq please post organization ontario hydro research division lines 18 article earth cs utexas edu mcguire cs utexas edu \( tommy marcus mcguire \) writes reason , 've discovered pulling wrong side handlebars \( rather pushing wrong side , get meaning \) provides feeling greater control example , rather pushing right side lean right turn right \( hi , ! \) , pulling left side least get leaned right feels secure less counter intuitive maybe need psychological help told newbie friend mine , trouble complicated explanations rider course , think using handlebars lean , turn push right handlebar \( pull left whatever \) lean right worked , stopped steering 've bike like jody levine dod 275 kv got pf jody p levine hydro ca ride toronto , ontario , canada
andersen udel edu \( stephen andersen \) subject riding jacket recommendations nntp posting host udel edu organization center composite materials university delaware lines 36 old jacket bite dust i'm market new riding jacket i'm looking recommendations suitable replacement would like buy full aerostich suit ca n't afford 700 right i'm considering two basic options 1 \) buy aerostich jacket dunno much costs due recent price increases , 'd imagine 400 may pushing limit advantages include fact later add pants , nearly eliminates need jacket portion 2 \) buy kind leather jacket like new hein line , however may bit pricey unless work sort deal advantages leather potentially slightly better protection , enhanced pose value \( know important \) , possibly cheaper upper aerostich requirements jacket must fit layers \( mainly sizing thing \) , leather 'd prefer zip lining , must body armor similar aerostich \( , shoulders , , possibly back kidney protection , etc \) , reasonable amount pocket space would nice , ventilation would plus , however must cold weather \( freezing \) layers perhaps please fire away suggestions , comments , etc steve steve andersen dod andersen udel edu \( 302 \) 832 andersen udel edu 1992 ducati 907 e 1987 yamaha life simply consequence complexities carbon chemistry
kurt oddjob uchicago edu \( kurt \) subject brake rotors cross drilling 1 312 702 organization university chicago , astronomy astrophysics distribution na lines 1
speedy engr latech edu \( speedy mercer \) subject insect impacts organization louisiana tech university lines 13 nntp posting host bhm116e spc engr latech edu article 1993apr6 rd hydro ca jlevine rd hydro ca \( jody levine \) writes article seven east sun com egreen east sun com writes article rd hydro ca , jlevine rd hydro ca \( jody levine \) writes every bit fast dirtbike , right terrain eat flies , thank mentioned \? 're talking highway speeds go 70mph dirtbike feel free contribute obviously never rode good 250 open class bike ! paid opinion ! dr speed suzuki gs850g dod 8177
mechanical watstar uwaterloo ca \( stefan \) subject crappy honda lines 24 organization university waterloo hi , small question bike fairly experienced bmw mz mechanic , n't know think honda using much oil last 5000 km \( trip daytona bike week spring \) , sudden , smoke like hell running one cylinder towed bike home took apart , everything looks perfect working order cracks heads pistons , cylinder walls look clean , wear pistons cylinders measurable still within factory specs thing could find , however , slightly bigger ring gap right cylinder \( one problem \) , still way wear limit given manual bike \? \? \? else could cause problem \? \? \? cylinder walls \( make little cross pattern \) order get better breaking new rings \? \? \? wo n't increase wear pistons \? \? please send comments mechanical watstar uwaterloo ca thanks advance stefan german exchange student n't poke privacy !
sprattli azores crd ge com \( rod sprattling \) subject self insured \( liability insurance required \? \) nntp posting host azores crd ge com reply sprattli azores crd ge com \( rod sprattling \) organization ge corp r center , schenectady ny lines 27 article viking ponderous cc iastate edu , viking iastate edu \( dan sorenson \) writes get annoyed insurance hence , i'm self insured liability play game silly 've better game play everybody still financially secure 's involved getting bonded \? anyone know 's option recognized dmv \? rod roderick sprattling job great , time small sprattli azores crd ge com feet fire back wall
nosubdomain nodomain \( peter levine \) subject bike sale 1986 harley organization uri department electrical engineering lines 12 sale 1986 harley liberty edition good condition many extras asking 7500 located rhode island peter levine uri edu
randy megatek com \( randy davis \) subject goldwing performance reply randy megatek com organization megatek corporation , san diego , california lines 12 article hpcc01 corp hp com gharriso hpcc01 corp hp com \( graeme harrison \) writes according peter egan released cycle world real dog pillions wife money dog n't much , think mystique buying extra 7k ! ! ! randy davis email randy megatek com zx 11 00072 pilot uunet ! ucsd ! megatek ! randy dod 0013
hesh cup hp com \( chris steinbroner \) subject tracing license plates bdi cagers \? article cup reply chris steinbroner hesh cup hp com organization hp ux kernel lab , cupertino , ca lines 12 nntp posting host hesh cup hp com x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 1 curtis jackson \( cjackson adobe com \) wrote driver looked casually couple times know knew oh , okay case vehicular manslaughter definitely wanted kill cagers want kill bikers 's explanation think hesh
denis com \( denis \) subject sale 1988 distribution ba , ca organization applied , inc lines 42 sale model 510 te \( model \) year 1988 engine 500 cc four stroke extras 1992 ignition \( easy starting \) suspension custom carbon fiber kevlar skid plate quick steering geometry stock \( epa legal quiet \) exhaust system bark busters hand guards motion pro clutch cable price 2200 contact denis e mail denis com \( 415 \) 570 \( work \) \( 415 \) 494 \( home \) selling trusty husky hopefully buy good dirt bike maintained perfectly never problems 's four stroke , 4 valves , liquid cooled engine heavier 250 2 stroke still lighter honda lot better suspension \( shock , husky fork \) xr casual non competitive rider , engine much better two stroke easily lug hills blast trails minimum gear changes 1992 ignition carefully tuned makes bike easy start \( starts first kick cold hot \) custom made carbon kevlar \( light 1 pound \) wrap around skid plate protect engine cases water pump steering angle reduced 2 degree increase steering suspension tune phil douglas \( multiple time rider \) gives better ride bike suspension , responsive steering head shake good bike sell \? \? \? \? gee , want buy , husky 25 pounds lighter tad
0005111312 mcimail com \( peter nesbitt \) subject thanks speeding ticket advice ! article mcimail organization utexas mail news gateway lines 37 nntp posting host cs utexas edu 'd like thank everyone took time respond post fighting ticket many wrote say successfully fought case court others lost due cop outright lying judge circumstances surrounding ticket , one fellow lost judge n't appear mood foolishness several suggested obtain book called fight ticket general theme said go , prepared much research possible , go back review scene , happened tape paper , use witnesses may around , list questions ask cop judge , positive innocent proven guilty ! people suggested trying get court date changed , might trip arresting officer , may show date day feels knows n't chance win one individual stated officer could expert witness , says speeding , damn , speeding another says must paced clocked radar gun lots good suggestions ideas 'll let know happens big day ! peter nesbitt air traffic controller pnesbitt mcimail com oakland bay
iat holonet net \( robert emmons \) subject mail order article iat organization holonet national internet access bbs 510 704 1058 modem lines 24 get good service shop , regularly merchandise stock need , knowledgable friendly sales staff , whatever reason would like business , keep business available fill future needs , charge item another store , usually purchase item store choice , pay lowest legitimate price offered elsewhere sounds pretty lame let see understand friends charge extra \? much usually pay little friendliness \? seems like 're serviced friendly sales people robert emmons never hesitate sacrifice clarity inc save precious holonet net program execution
jeff mri com \( jonathan jefferies \) subject bmw rally summary memorial day weekend rally keywords bmw , rally , article mri 1993apr9 1903 expires tue , 1 jun 1993 07 00 00 gmt distribution rec motorcycles organization research , santa clara , california , usa lines 66 mm mm ww ww bb bb mm mm ww ww b b mm mm ww w ww mm mm ww w w ww bb bb mm mm ww w w ww bb bb mm mm ww w w ww mm mm ww ww press release bmw riders subject rally time bmw club northern california bmw 49'er rally , may 27 31 \( u memorial day weekend \) san francisco bay area 20th annual bmw 49'er rally , sponsored bmw club northern , held quincy , california fairgrounds , may 27 31 , 1993 included 42 pre registration fee , 47 gate , 4 star camping , field events trophies , two , rally pin , door prizes , poker run , vendor displays , fun run , english trials , live music playing throughout weekend plus extras like hot showers , tours , first time 49'er rally 's 20 year history event held quincy according pat gardner , rally chairman , 49'er rally 's continuing growth need larger complete facility led us quincy plus get either two highways highway 70 , goes feather river canyon , south via part gold country 's highway 49 day passes available non bmw rider must pre registered guest bmw rider quincy fairgrounds located california state highway 70 89 , two miles south downtown quincy pre registration forms additional information , write doug , bmw club northern california , norman court , fremont , ca 94539 , telephone us \( 510 \) 651 additional notes profit event riders get worth whether 've ever attended rally one make problem many activities attendees choose one another quincy beautiful campground , lots grass little dust folks previous 49'er rallies , quincy lots space , flat room problem buildings available change weather also people quincy going welcome us registration begin thursday course always early arrivals show monday tuesday registration fee pays camping thursday monday \( 5 days \) tour friday main events beginning saturday sunday evening awards ceremony members various clubs , club awards based registration declaration course usual awards oldest male female rider betting 70 needed win youngest rider \( get permits 15 greatest distance , one two usual things
rbemben timewarp prime com \( rich bemben \) subject still cold , expires 30 apr 93 05 00 00 gmt distribution usa organization computervision corp , bedford , lines 14 article 1993apr6 28921 linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org \( cookson \) writes tend keep bedroom window open winter woken find frost , still get cold usually part sticks bottom helmet maybe 's time get quiet rider cool conjure image bd dean , long sleeping helmet \? \? rich bemben dod rbemben timewarp prime com 1977 750 triumph bonneville \( 617 \) 275 1800 x 4173 fear evil men name evil , heaven protect us evil men name good
irwin cmptrc lonestar org \( irwin arnstein \) subject recommendation duc summary 's worth \? distribution usa expires sat , 1 may 1993 05 00 00 gmt organization computrac inc , richardson tx keywords ducati , gts , much \? lines 13 line ducati 1978 model clock runs well , paint bronze brown orange faded , leaks bit oil pops 1st hard accel shop fix trans oil leak sold bike 1 owner want , thinking like 3k opinions \? please email thanks would nice stable mate beemer 'll get jap bike call axis motors ! tuba \( irwin \) honk therefore computrac richardson , tx irwin cmptrc lonestar org dod 0826 \( r75 6 \)
rbemben timewarp prime com \( rich bemben \) subject safe driving expires 30 apr 93 05 00 00 gmt organization computervision lines 34 article 1993apr9 news columbia edu rdc8 cunixf cc columbia edu \( robert castro \) writes article netcom com rbp netcom com \( bob pasker \) writes cjackson adobe com \( curtis jackson \) writes solution never ride next car thing space keep much possible take one step never rear 1 4 either side cage pass make positive possible ca n't pass fully , least make sure attempt make driver aware least getting area vision also applies merging another lane making pass positively possible try look rear view shoulder 've done accelerate lane speed cushion missed seeing potential bdi 's trying thing worse \( ie may behind , saw made pass successfully n't going fast enough suite tries go around right \) ride four eyes rich rich bemben dod rbemben timewarp prime com 1977 750 triumph bonneville \( 617 \) 275 1800 x 4173 fear evil men name evil , heaven protect us evil men name good
rbemben timewarp prime com \( rich bemben \) subject april 1 \( faq dod \? \) expires 30 apr 93 05 00 00 gmt organization computervision corp , bedford , lines 31 article hpfcso fc hp com jld hpfcso fc hp com \( jeff deeney \) writes rec motorcycles , viking iastate edu \( dan sorenson \) writes last year , believe , jeff deeney posted 've since come recognize ultimate april fools posting ever n't particularly nice , several people quite fooled worried , ca n't fault effectiveness based numerous inputs \( \) , deemed time kinder , gentler , april 1 n't something really sick twisted ready post \) perhaps next year personally , think poo still third degree burns suffered april 1st last year rather supposed burns suffered joke granted one people taken certainly concerned pissed pulling thing \( made known \) , april fool joke would also go record saying best orchestrated one 've ever seen certainly sucked lot people believing 8 \( 8 8 8 \) sick twisted \? \? \? group could ever accused thing \? tip twisted lid thee 8 \) rich bemben dod rbemben timewarp prime com 1977 750 triumph bonneville \( 617 \) 275 1800 x 4173 fear evil men name evil , heaven protect us evil men name good
maven mavenry altcit eskimo com \( norman hamer \) subject observation helmets x altnet id 211353 lines 29 grf dropped shoei rf 200 seat bike trying rock onto 's centerstand , chipped heck paint cheerfully spent 59 bottle 's model paint repainted scratches chips 20 minutes , drying , realized cage currently running take bike store wanting mess paint job , said well , heck use old helmet standard el cheapie n't notice big difference switched shoei , switching back really bad 1 \) n't fit worth damn , wide sides , short front back 2 \) faceplate , 's still bloody windy shoei , normally ignore face shield get one , end driveway much wind question day passenger helmets , n't know certain 's gonna ride \( like say meet church meeting , yeah , 's ticket \) guidelines \? pick another shoei size backup helmet \( xl \) , maybe get inexpensive one smaller size accomodate likely passenger \?
bgardner pebbles es com \( blaine gardner \) subject ggrrrrrr ! ! cages double parking motorcycles pisses ! nntp posting host 130 187 85 70 organization evans sutherland computer corporation lines 10 article 34211 castle ed ac uk wbg festival ed ac uk \( w geake \) writes banana one n't , imho ultra sticky labels printed favourite curse good even local hospitals use instead wheel clamps , putting one \( a5 size \) window cage 's local hospital 's favorite curse \? blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com
rdc8 cunixf cc columbia edu \( robert castro \) subject flashing anyone \? keywords flashing nntp posting host cunixf cc columbia edu organization columbia university lines 23 hello , bike hazard lights \( front back turn signals flash \) since live nj commute nyc number tolls one must pay route arriving toll booth switch hazards warn motorists taking longer 2 1 2 seconds make transaction taking gloves , getting money coin changer pocket , making transaction , putting gloves back takes little time average cager takes make transaction paying toll also notice cagers tend get message usually go another booth question , good bad thing \? others tend \? curious rob castro email rdc8 cunixf cc columbia edu live today 1983 kz550ltd phone \( 212 \) 854 7617 today live ! dod nyc 1 new york , new york , usa rc \( tm \)
jpolito sysgem1 encore com \( jonathan polito \) subject stolen organization encore computer corp reply microunity com 's message thu , 15 apr 1993 00 22 22 gmt 1993apr15 microunity com nntp posting host sysgem1 encore com lines 23 article 1993apr15 microunity com microunity com \( eric murray \) writes watch often scumbag steals cover , means looking steal bike case , faded cover stolen bmw r100rs stashed apartment visible street evidently decided beemer n't worth stealing , try next night steal honda hurricane 600 parked next apartment building neighbor heard called cops know setting , actually one things really good bmw bikes accounts 've heard practically one steals bmws probably similar moto relative exotics since n't large demand parts bike would much easier track seems stolen bikes harleys jap sport bikes jonathan e polito internet jpolito encore com encore computer corp , 901 farm rd , cary , nc usa 919 481 3730 voice 919 481 fax
jlevine rd hydro ca \( jody levine \) subject bikes big dogs organization ontario hydro research division lines 17 article 1993apr14 galaxy gov bc ca bclarke galaxy gov bc ca writes article 1993apr14 1 cua edu , 84wendel cua edu writes anyone ever heard rider giving big dog great dane ride back bike dog would love could ever make work ! ! ! post month ! ! ! actually , 've seen riders around pet dog sidecar great dane back though sounds bit hairy yeah , i'm sure lab would love ride \( 's type sticks head car windows \) n't think would enjoy bungee gas tank , 65 lbs beast bit much backpack \( ok 's done \) 've bike like jody levine dod 275 kv got pf jody p levine hydro ca ride toronto , ontario , canada
ba7116326 ntuvax ntu ac sg subject v max handling request lines 5 nntp posting host ntu ac sg organization nanyang technological university singapore hello ican anyone handson experience riding yamaha v max , pls kindly comment handling
bgardner pebbles es com \( blaine gardner \) subject motorcycle detailing tip 18 nntp posting host 130 187 85 70 organization evans sutherland computer corporation lines 33 article 1993apr15 bnr ca mbeaving bnr ca writes n't hate speedo tach bike start cloud nasty sunshine \? detailing tip week use rubbing compound rag , apply rubbing compound work , previously transparent , material minutes working plastic face , dial , plastic face clear work glass couple tips 1 \) make habit parking bike instruments facing away sun 2 \) 's mirror plastic polish plastic cleaner \( cue canned product plug \) sumax seattleu edu \( linda \) writes ok , novice question , anything clean face shield also remove one see better \? want 's mirror plastic polish plastic cleaner mild meant remove scratches plastic fine scratches use polish , bigger ones start cleaner finish polish stuff 5 8 bucks per bottle auto motorcycle parts stores n't choke price much , since bottles probably last 10 years stuff works great plastic watch crystals compact discs blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com
wcd82671 uxa cso uiuc edu \( daniel warren c \) subject hard copy hot pursuit ! ! ! ! summary shit ! ! ! ! ! ! ! keywords running police article news 2t4 distribution rec motorcycles organization university illinois urbana lines 44 yo , anybody see run hard copy \? guy 600 katana got pulled police \( guess speeding something \) cop step car , dude punches interstate georgia , cop gives chase interesting episode videotaped ! ! ! everything dramatic takeoff chase battle happened end \? guy \( relentless chased box cage lights \) slows couple times taunt cop blowing stop signs making car jump side , goes dead end street kat , although latest machine , still high performance machine brakes , know cages , especially ones lights , ca n't stop fast high performance machines happens \? cage kat luckily dude , wearing helmet hurt dude , crazy get ! \? ! yeah , 've went played cat mouse friends , cop ! ! \? \? \? ! ! ! crazy get ! \? ! \? ! took one look zx 7 tried crap convince try shit like \( although dude collided car head 140 mph , kawasaki team colors still looked good ! ! ! scratches , like front end 3 inch long engine minor scratches \) guys , please , slow advocate cages \( especially ones make annoying ass noises \) , think next time punched \( whether mighty zx 11 250 ninja \) , remember , kid could step time peace ride \( kinda \) safe warren suzuki , travel wcd82671 uxa cso uiuc edu 's big deal riding one i'm going 95 ! \? ! \? ! annie \( \)
behanna syl nj nec com \( chris behanna \) subject wanted advice cb900 custom purchase keywords cb900 , purchase organization nec systems laboratory , inc lines 22 article 1993apr14 linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org \( cookson \) writes article acs ucalgary ca parr acs ucalgary ca \( charles parr \) writes mechanic commented transmission pure junk one mans opinion friend pittsburgh dual range tranny usually used economy range get overdrive sixth gear miles stolen recovered shortly , repaired , , know , 's still going strong shaft driven version cb900 made exactly one year \( yep , head base gaskets expensive \) helluva bike data point , chris behanna dod 114 1983 h fxwg wide glide jubilee 's red lady behanna syl nj nec com 1975 cb360t baby bike disclaimer would nec 1991 zx 11 needs name agree anyway \? raised pack wild corn dogs
prange nickel ucs indiana edu \( henry prange \) subject \( tangentially \) live free , quietly , die nntp posting host nickel ucs indiana edu organization indiana university lines 20 article 1993apr15 035406 rd hydro ca jlevine rd hydro ca \( jody levine \) writes stuff deleted showing canadian university ness , anyone else know i'm talking \? 've bike like jody levine dod 275 kv got pf jody p levine hydro ca ride toronto , ontario , canada go , edu breath poser ! university ness indeed ! leave stuff us professionals henry prange biker professional edu breath physiology iu sch med , , dod 0821 bmwmoa gsi 215 ride '92 r100gs '91 rx 7 conv cage 2 '91 explorer cage 2 unifying trait species relentless pursuit folly hypocrisy national religion country
fist iscp bellcore com \( richard pierson \) subject boom ! hubcap attack ! nntp posting host foxtrot iscp bellcore com organization bellcore lines 57 article speedy 147 engr latech edu , speedy engr latech edu \( speedy mercer \) writes attacked rabid hubcap going work yamaha 750 twin \( k vibrating tank \) heard wierd noise left caught glimpse something silver headed left foot jerked nanosecond bike hit hard left side went put foot back peg , found ! pulled nearest parking lot discovered hit wire wheel type hubcap large cage ! hubcap weighed 4 5 pounds ! impact bent left peg flat frame shifter process heard approaching cap , feel certian would sans portion left foot anyone else sort experience \? hub cap one lumber yard delivery trucks made life interesting hit road several sheets dozen 5 gallon cans came 70 mph got real interesting 20 seconds use wood get dried , helmet bike got home thanks bob tail lumber truck path drive made tires \( threw corresponding monsoon tires ran ever cans n't burst impact \) car front right lane hit brakes , 360 nailed bridge half way second 360 time san diego way back apartment ocean beach sportster picked shake , burger n fries jack box stuffed em foul weather jacket milk shake opened nimitz blvd 50 mph , nothing like smell vanilla milk shake cooking engine runs groin legs 15 people waiting back make left turn two types ships navy submarines targets ! ! ! 1 xs1100lh dod 956 2 next raise richard pierson e06584 vnet 908 699 6063 internet fist iscp bellcore com , uunet uunet ! bcr ! fist include std disclaimer opinions ! ! ! n't shop malls , buy jeans , jackets ammo store
ak296 yfn ysu edu \( john r daker \) subject boom ! hubcap attack ! organization st elizabeth hospital , youngstown , oh lines 21 reply ak296 yfn ysu edu \( john r daker \) nntp posting host yfn ysu edu previous article , speedy engr latech edu \( speedy mercer \) says attacked rabid hubcap going work yamaha 750 twin \( k vibrating tank \) heard wierd noise left caught glimpse something silver headed left foot jerked nanosecond bike hit hard left side went put foot back peg , found ! pulled nearest parking lot discovered hit wire wheel type hubcap large cage ! hubcap weighed 4 5 pounds ! impact bent left peg flat frame shifter process heard approaching cap , feel certian would sans portion left foot hmmmm wondered hubcap went dod 650 darkman significant problems face cannot solved level thinking created albert einstein eternal champion
ak296 yfn ysu edu \( john r daker \) subject v max handling request organization st elizabeth hospital , youngstown , oh lines 14 reply ak296 yfn ysu edu \( john r daker \) nntp posting host yfn ysu edu previous article , ba7116326 ntuvax ntu ac sg \( \) says hello ican anyone handson experience riding yamaha v max , pls kindly comment handling 're kidding , right \? flame bait extreme v max handling \? har har har har dod 650 darkman significant problems face cannot solved level thinking created albert einstein eternal champion
rdc8 cunixf cc columbia edu \( robert castro \) subject contact person boots keywords combat nntp posting host cunixf cc columbia edu reply rdc8 cunixf cc columbia edu \( robert castro \) organization columbia university lines 16 would anyone able help giving contact purchase pair military air borne combat boots \( 9 1 2 size \) boots \( read rec moto \) calf height boots use velcro enclosure phoned around nobody seems carry item admit gone deepest nyc yet search made calls several bigger army navy type stores luck anyone know place carry item well mail order \? help would appreciated rob castro email rdc8 cunixf cc columbia edu live today 1983 kz550ltd phone \( 212 \) 854 7617 today live ! dod nyc 1 new york , new york , usa rc \( tm \)
ak296 yfn ysu edu \( john r daker \) subject hard copy hot pursuit ! ! ! ! organization st elizabeth hospital , youngstown , oh lines 22 reply ak296 yfn ysu edu \( john r daker \) nntp posting host yfn ysu edu previous article , wcd82671 uxa cso uiuc edu \( daniel warren c \) says yo , anybody see run hard copy \? , n't watch bu sh kat , although latest machine , still high performance machine brakes , know cages , especially ones lights , ca n't stop fast high performance machines happens \? cage kat , mean cop fault rear ending bike \? know , following closely reckless driving \? dod 650 darkman significant problems face cannot solved level thinking created albert einstein eternal champion
asper calvin uucp \( alan e asper \) subject v max handling request organization usr lib news organization lines 12 nntp posting host calvin sbc com article 1993apr15 222224 1 ntuvax ntu ac sg ba7116326 ntuvax ntu ac sg writes hello ican anyone handson experience riding yamaha v max , pls kindly comment handling 've ridden one twice designed monster straight line , nothing corners fact , n't handle well curves hey , 's designed two cents , alan
npet bnr ca \( nick pettefar \) subject rejetting carbs nntp posting host bmdhh299 organization bnr europe ltd , maidenhead , uk x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 distribution na lines 53 mark , thu , 15 apr 1993 00 42 46 gmt wibbled article rtaraz bigwpi \( ramin taraz \) wrote amount exhaust allowed leave engine exhaust pipe make much difference \? amount air fuel mixture sucks \( tries suck \) depends speed piston goes pressure cylinder end exhaust stroke poor exhaust system , pressure may atmospheric pipe well may substantially atmospheric effect vary rpm depending tune pipe pipes combined large valve overlap actually reverse intake flow blow mixture carb outside pipes effective rev range , question one provides far engine \) resistance exhaust provides \) resistance results bike trying push rider two completely different things state pipe determines much power motor make load bike determines much power motor needs make \) v \( ark \) pilot payload mechanic 're welcome well , one , glad fuel injection ! needles orifices pressures 's worse school human biology reproduction lessons \( sex \) always made feel bit nick \( simple minded biker \) dod 1069 concise oxford tube rider m'lud nick pettefar , contractor large ' ` ` ' ' ` ` ' currently incarcerated bnr , maidenhead , united kingdom npet bnr ca '86 bmw k100rs kay ` ' ' ` ` ' ' ` pres pbwasoh \( uk \) , bs 0002
behanna syl nj nec com \( chris behanna \) subject liability insurance required \? organization nec systems laboratory , inc distribution usa lines 32 article tcora b329 gator 3 pica army mil tcora pica army mil \( tom coradeschi \) writes article 1993apr14 walter bellcore com , fist iscp bellcore com \( richard pierson \) wrote lets get fault stuff straight , lived nj nf started , rates went , alot moved pa rates went alot , nf came pa different story sitting parking lot lunch whatever someone guess whose insurance pays \? give \? bzzzt ! driver 's fault , insurance co pays , less deductible , total cost guy gal 's company \( 's fancy word , escapes right \) , pays deductible go guy gal 's company right takes longer get cash \( opposed state farm , cut check today , spot , damage wife 's cage \) word seems , 're willing wait money scumbag 's insurance , save pay deductible however , scumbag 's insurance scum insurance , may pay deductible get insurance co 's pack rabid , large lawyers recover damages scum insurance 's lawyers sad , true call job security lawyers later , chris behanna dod 114 1983 h fxwg wide glide jubilee 's red lady behanna syl nj nec com 1975 cb360t baby bike disclaimer would nec 1991 zx 11 needs name agree anyway \? raised pack wild corn dogs
coburnn spot colorado edu \( nicholas coburn \) subject bikes big dogs nntp posting host spot colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 19 article 1993apr14 1 cua edu 84wendel cua edu writes anyone ever heard rider giving big dog great dane ride back bike dog would love could ever make work thanks 84wendel cua edu back might tricky , boulder , guy always seen golden sidecar course , dog always wearing wwii style goggles \( joke \) nick coburn dod 6425 ama coburnn spot colorado edu
txd esd 3com com \( tom dietrich \) subject ducati 400 opinions wanted lines 51 nntp posting host able mkt 3com com frankb sad hp com \( frank ball \) writes godfrey digiorgi \( ramarren apple com \) wrote ducati 400 model essentially reduced displacement 750 , means weighs size 750 far less power produced specifically meet vehicle tax restriction certain markets makes commercially viable 's sold us unwanted , 's somewhat large overweight motor still handle magnificently , wo n't fast flaws mention limited steering lock annoyance noted testers mirrors n't perfect ducati 750 model essentially reduced displacement 900 , means weighs size 900 far less nope , 's 24 lbs 900 power less brakes single disk quite impressive two fingers lever , much beth 's horror lifted rear wheel 8 fine randy impression , 's somewhat large overweight motor still handle magnificently , wo n't fast feeling 's going fast enough beth give liter bike riders fits future flaws mention limited steering lock steering locks adjustable annoyance noted testers mirrors n't perfect beth sees fine see 2 3 filled black leather '86 concours sophisticated lady tom dietrich '72 1000cc sportster 'ol sport sale dod 055 '79 sr500 spike , garage rat ama queued m900 ! ! fssnoc 1843 two gather , big fun ! 1kspt 17 28 bell \( 408 \) 764 5874 cool rule , sometimes e mail txd able mkt 3com com \( h lewis \) disclaimer 3com takes responsibility opinions preceding
cookson mbunix mitre org \( cookson \) subject dot tire date codes nntp posting host mbunix mitre org organization mitre corp , bedford , distribution usa lines 25 mailed noticed 2 long cut tread rear tire vfr cut deep tread block , looks like scratched rubber base , weird thing , 's way edge n't scuffed tire yet questions 1 dangerous , replace tire right away \? 2 , since cut portion tire 330 mi , think chances getting replaced warranty \? nedod mailing list , jack tavares suggested check old tire one tactic getting replaced anyone file read date codes handy \? thanks , dean dean cookson dcookson mitre org 617 271 2714 dod 207 ama 573534 mitre corp burlington rd , bedford , 01730 kotnml kotb road shepherd shall stop '92 vfr750f sam eliott , road hogs mtv 1993 '88 bianchi limited
parr acs ucalgary ca \( charles parr \) subject fat boy versus zx 11 \( new math \) nntp posting host acs3 acs ucalgary ca organization university calgary , alberta lines 32 article agate berkeley edu robinson cogsci berkeley edu \( michael robinson \) writes article ccu umanitoba ca klinger ccu umanitoba ca \( jorg klinger \) writes 1993apr1 bnr ca npet bnr ca \( nick pettefar \) writes manual velcro , 31 mar 93 09 19 29 0200 wibbled 14 greater 11 , 180 greater 120 , ! 10 best ! obvious 8 best number far last year 10 hot improvements 8 year question hell , dad used old 5 would beat today 's 8 without breaking sweat \( well , , anyway \) year 's 8 cumbersome practical use anything repeating remember good old days , , even binaries still legal \? sure , smoked little blue stuff pipes , hex 7 could slaughter decimal 10 road sigh , nostalgia ! regards , charles dod0 , 001 rz350 within span last weeks heard elements separate threads , conjoined time , struck together form new chord within hollow echoing gourd unknown net person
parr acs ucalgary ca \( charles parr \) subject drinking riding nntp posting host acs3 acs ucalgary ca organization university calgary , alberta lines 30 article c4wkbp b9w eskimo com maven eskimo com \( norman hamer \) writes general rule thumb sobriety cycling \? couple hours feel sober \? \? work drink tonight , n't ride tomorrow \? interesting discussion limit one alcohol i'm going ride mostly , unless alcohol something special \( fine ale , good wine , someone else 's \) , usually n't drink alcohol n't really important , mainly financial reasons least one magazines claims follow aviation alcohol whatsoever within riding bike n't remember mag though , years ago regards , charles \( \) dod 0 001 rz350 within span last weeks heard elements separate threads , conjoined time , struck together form new chord within hollow echoing gourd unknown net person
npet bnr ca \( nick pettefar \) subject johs dhhalden \( 3 \) last nntp posting host bmdhh299 organization bnr europe ltd , maidenhead , uk x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 33 wvnvms wvnet edu writes ver 1 4 , theodore kaldis begin cut cut part 3 mg nh \) \) , \( h ! \( e c gif great ! ! backdrop apollo thingy many people stop admire course tell 's far much trouble contact archive sites get stuff like , anybody else good gifs , please , please n't hesitate post bra thing still going \? nick \( idiot biker \) dod 1069 concise oxford m'lud nick pettefar , contractor large ' ` ` ' ' ` ` ' currently incarcerated bnr , maidenhead , united kingdom npet bnr ca '86 bmw k100rs kay ` ' ' ` ` ' ' ` pres pbwasoh \( uk \) , bs 0002
npet bnr ca \( nick pettefar \) subject camping question \? nntp posting host bmdhh299 organization bnr europe ltd , maidenhead , uk x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 46 sanjay sinha , 12 apr 93 00 23 19 gmt wibbled thanks everyone posted previous quest camping info another question well , strictly r stuff looking keep coffee hot mean real hot ! course must unbreakable type far , ever metal type wasted money matched vacuum glass type info appreciated sanjay back youth \( ahem \) moi purchased gadget heated water 12v source car use thought 'd try worked ok apart one slight problem keep revs 7000 lower motor would die lack electron movement made interesting cups coffee , anyhow would plot routes contained straights three miles sufficient time get water boiling point sometimes difficult england good luck quest nick \( biker \) dod 1069 concise oxford m'lud nick pettefar , contractor large ' ` ` ' ' ` ` ' currently incarcerated bnr , maidenhead , united kingdom npet bnr ca '86 bmw k100rs kay ` ' ' ` ` ' ' ` pres pbwasoh \( uk \) , bs 0002
davide dcs qmw ac uk \( dave edmondson \) subject turbocharged north america \? organization computer science dept , qmw , university london x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 17 article skyfox howp skyfox writes got thinking n't manufacturers still make bikes turbos \? etc add lot expense complexity make less reliable less bike extreme example cx500 turbo cost much mike replica ducati david edmondson davide dcs qmw ac uk queen mary westfield college dod guzzi le mans 1000 means end horse drawn zeppelin
gnome pd org \( mike \) subject cats dogs \? \? \? ! organization laughing gnome software farm , atlanta , ga , usa lines 13 nntp posting host noel pd org x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 james bessette \( cbnewsj cb att com \) wrote article hplsla hp com kens hplsla hp com \( ken snyder \) writes ps also heard dog breeder chains bicycles motorcycles produced high frequency dogs loved chase ask breeder also chase bmws also cam chain mike mike gnome pd org ! emory ! pd org ! gnome ama dod 522 irony spice life '90 bianchi '82 suzuki revolution televised
lmsc5 lmsc lockheed com subject boom ! hubcap attack ! organization lockheed missiles space company , inc lines 30 speedy engr latech edu \( speedy mercer \) attacked rabid hubcap going work yamaha 750 twin \( k vibrating tank \) heard wierd noise left caught glimpse something silver headed left foot jerked nanosecond bike hit hard left \( rest deleted \) anyone else sort experience \? dod 8177 technician \( dr speed \) student stolen taglines god real , unless declared integer came , saw , deleted files black holes god dividing zero world end 5 minutes please log earth 98 full please delete anyone actually , hubcap attacks fairly common , cagers reinstall properly changing tires , check collisions luckily , heavy one got al moore dod 734 n't forget immortal swap file read error lose mind
davide dcs qmw ac uk \( dave edmondson \) subject runs like bitch organization computer science dept , qmw , university london x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 31 tried mailing domain seems exist , ca n't even get slb com admit knowing , anyway go article griffin sgp slb com wrote subject runs like bitch anyone cure sub zero running probs gpz 900 anything 3000 revs bike wants cut time , recommended cure bike mags seems switch engine minute ice , obviously mutch cure mine kawasaki heated carb mod problem persists , 've covered rad makes bike run warmer moves problem temp scale degree two anyone tried kit 900 \( getting desperate \) different carbs fuel injection gpz 1100 talked kawasaki , maybe another version upgrade kit got worth phone call carb mod buy secondhand someone said done kent \? heard mailing list run \? email list bikers uk interested parties , available live daily digest let know want subscribe good luck , dave david edmondson davide dcs qmw ac uk queen mary westfield college dod guzzi le mans 1000 means end horse drawn zeppelin
keith hydra unm edu \( \) subject afford goldwing mirror \? organization university new mexico , albuquerque lines 9 distribution usa nntp posting host hydra unm edu searched without luck faq need left 85 mirror honda wants 75 another piece chrome replace black plastic wings come liberally supplied might able see silly price , mirror piece safety equipment fact honda clearly places concern profits ahead concern safety enough convince \( third \) wing likely last mean time , non ripoff source mirror \? keith smith keith hydra unm edu
paulb harley tti com \( paul blumstein \) subject latest socal rides 4 14 nntp posting host harley tti com organization black belt motorcyclists association distribution ca lines 194 southern california 4 14 93 please send updates ride list remember , street rides open bikers posted please inc phone info also , send e mail address want mailed copies list suggest calling first make sure info current find info , please let know strive accuracy cannot responsible errors e mail address paulb harley tti com c coffee donuts mx live music f food drinks available changes since last posting address end posting apr 15 18 11th annual \( nv \) river run rides run points socal concerts , poker runs , parties , etc , etc sponsored southern calif harley dealer assoc , bikes welcome reservations 25 socal harley dealer river run 24 hr hotline 800 266 discount room reservations concert tix 909 883 \( sat , 9a noon 1 4p \) apr 17 2nd annual racing show sale art , prints , photos , , models , books 310 539 apr 17 18 scma route 66 tour 714 680 apr 18 scma trac tour 7a santa monica john lane 818 359 apr 18 tax time run money \( abate 19 \) 200 pins , prizes , games , f , raffles 7 \( free join \) 8 10a v twin city , 565 brea canyon rd , walnut manny 909 594 apr 18 3rd annual loma linda children 's hospital benefit run free c start hot dogs , etc finish 8 skip motors , indiana ave , riverside 909 679 1097 apr 23 25 mma state frazier park 805 522 805 392 apr 23 25 yuma prison run 20 25 gate camping 310 944 805 253 3043 apr 23 25 paso robles clean sober run paso robles fairgrounds 805 461 1211 apr 25 's 3rd annual scenic tour 2 starts , 5 routes 6 30 8 simi valley honda , l ave cycles parts , 473 w baseline , san picnic bbq lake hughes 14 805 584 apr 25 mra chap e poker run 8a american legion , 600 south st , steve hill 714 244 may 1 ama grand nat'l dirt track series race pomona , 714 623 614 891 may 1 's \( 90 7 fm \) centerstand radio show car show broadcast live , etc , w av , burbank starts , centerstand 1 30pm 818 845 may 1 abate 8 poker run east end park , imperial valley 8 10a 8 includes food entertainment barbara 619 352 may 1 2 pmc annual tour 818 963 909 593 may 1 2 song dog ranch spring rally overnight camping campground mx , eat drink bbq dinner sunday 40 person reserve april 26 song dog ranch , rt 33 , new \( n \) 805 766 \( keep trying number \) may 2 bsa owner 's club spring ride landing 805 273 may 2 album release celebration \( helmet laws suck billy gordon blue rockers \) la vida hot springs \( 91 lambert east 5 miles left \) special guests , mx , 714 996 may 2 1st annual spring round \( abate 27 \) many bike games f , pins , starts 9a games noon 10 ea 18 couple \( free join \) restaurant , hwy 74 \( lake \) george susan 909 674 allen 909 780 may 14 mc swap meet orange county fairgnds , costa mesa 6 714 364 0515 may 14 la mc swap meet 8 818 361 may 14 christian c socal rally first assembly god church , rd , bob 909 797 may 16 mother 's 805 763 may 16 4th annual mc awareness day \( abate 22 \) 9 30 5p american legion hall , bl \( \) , mx , vendors , raffles , games , etc 5 \( 12 free \) \( 8 w pin \) f doc carol 310 371 dieter 310 531 may 16 blue knights 5th annual benefit ride starts cycle parts west , san diego harold crosby 619 753 may 19 run wall la dc lv \( 8a \? \) 9a ta truck stop meet ontario camping available night 's stop rides ends vietnam veterans memorial wall washington , dc 100 , 000 bikes expected meet call rod coffey 310 425 alt info send 1 p h john anderson , deer creek way , paso robles , ca call 805 237 may 23 long beach mc parts exchange , lb veterans memorial stadium 310 323 may 28 31 us mc fairgnds , ride mc show , benefit poker run \( sun \) , mx , raffles , games starts noon friday 23 11 \( 15 \) free 6 918 542 502 622 805 822 310 492 909 825 602 425 may 29 31 blazing tour \( scma \) 818 789 may 30 ariel owners club annual event greenfield ave , la chuck walton , 818 345 jun 6 fun sun ride \( mma 2 \) 805 392 0546 jun 12 13 class act tour jun 12 13 silver eagles run palomar , san diego 619 569 jun 20 ventura swap show shop ventura fairgnds 805 656 jun 20 3rd annual summer poker run pig feed \( abate 9 \) 15 ea 25 couple \( free join \) pig roast , games , raffles , mx , swimming , 300 pins 8 10a swallows inn , i5 hwy , san juan earl 714 496 3401 rick 714 548 jun 25 27 mma 's bike fest '93 fairgrounds \( hwy 99 hwy go 38 miles \) mx , camping available trade show , , games 25 advance 35 gate info tix 800 247 jun 27 hope house benefit run \( scma \) 805 581 jul 4 bike show accessories jul 4 abate 6 christmas july 619 569 jul 11 beach ride 93 benefit exceptional children 's foundation jul 11 abate 8 old timers poker run 714 998 jul 16 19 4th annual ride joust starts west coast goes pine glen campground \( near lakes \) 2 3 day weekend fun usenet personalities fond flaming get mail list , contact joust request harley tti com jul 18 iron horse poker run 805 734 3401 jul 21 2nd annual national ride work day jul 23 25 c mt palomar 17th annual la jolla 714 352 jul 25 5th annual summer food run abate 19 818 917 jul 30 mc swap meet orange county fairgnds , costa mesa 6 714 364 0515 aug 1 accessories ride aug 7 hot august nights poker run 805 392 0546 aug 14 15 650 tour \( scma area b \) 805 481 aug 21 22 song dog ranch summer rally overnight camping famous motorcycle campground classical mx , eat drink bbq dinner sunday 40 person reserve aug 16 song dog ranch , rt 33 , new \( n \) 805 766 \( keep trying number \) aug 22 benefit run \( trac \) 714 680 aug 22 mma chicken roast park 805 522 sep 3 6 18th annual 3 flags classic , mexico southern alberta , canada 110 person received 1 23 93 frank weed 714 879 \( try 714 962 \) sep 3 6 abate 's golden state rendezvous 10a fri noon mon mid state fairgrounds , paso robles sep 12 iron horse rocket run 805 734 3401 sep 19 black gold poker run \( mc \) 805 765 sep 24 26 redwood run 2 sep 25 27 tour \( \) 805 272 oct 1 mc swap meet orange county fairgnds , costa mesa 6 714 364 0515 oct 9 10 song dog ranch fall rally overnight camping famous motorcycle campground mx , eat drink bbq dinner sunday 40 person reserve oct 4 song dog ranch , rt 33 , new \( n \) 805 766 \( keep trying number \) oct 16 17 scma grand tour 805 269 1399 oct 22 24 motorcycle valley fairgrounds \( hwy 14 n ave , exit , right \) , lancaster oct 23 24 22nd annual griffith park sidecar rally mineral springs area park doug 818 780 oct 24 mra chap e ride nov 7 love ride 10 benefit muscular assoc sponsored h , san fernando rd , 818 246 nov 14 toy key run \( scma area b \) 805 481 nov 14 mc awareness day \( abate 1 \) nov 21 accessories unlimited ride dec 3 mc swap meet orange county fairgnds , costa mesa 6 714 364 0515 dec 12 hathaway children 's center toy run ongoing events notices hd swap meet show santa fe springs drive , blvd 5 30 10 , 3rd thurs ea mo 5 fee 310 944 note april , moved 4 8 free every saturday , inc , long beach 310 539 6420 tune centerstand , radio program motorcyclists every saturday 1 30 2pm , 90 7 fm parents w partners mc club meets 2nd sat 8a , brea rd road 909 595 new mc club women forming pearls 818 706 marc \( motorcycling amateur radio club \) meets 8a , 2nd sat denny 's , e 17th st , santa ana net 8p 146 985 info ray bonnie 714 551 1036 addresses follows camp 210 10 , go north ave \( hwy 39 \) east fork rd go 2 5 miles east camp \( hint look bridge \) accessories unlimited lyons ave \( i5 \) , 805 255 cycle parts west beach blvd ,
pb2esac uucp \( peter ahrens \) subject bmwmoa controversy summary request brief overview keywords bmwmoa board , history organization pacific bell esac , oakland , ca distribution usa lines 18 article 1095 rider uucp joe rider cactus org writes vech ra msstate edu \( craig vechorik \) writes good ol boys long agree current board garbage , voting would simply trading one form trash another opponents selections get equal time \? joe , n't post really think \? rational bmwmoa folks left , may rest us please brief summary current state affairs esteemed organization , together historical outline got \? points deducted shouting temple area pete ahrens
keithh bnr ca \( keith hanlan \) subject ggrrrrrr ! ! cages double parking motorcycles pisses ! nntp posting host organization bell northern research ltd , ottawa lines 8 article cash cs utexas edu mcguire cs utexas edu \( tommy marcus mcguire \) writes however , nothing motorcycling , unless consider vw bike however , nothing motorcycling , unless consider bike keith hanlan keithh bnr ca bell northern research , ottawa , canada 613 765
npet bnr ca \( nick pettefar \) subject bmw battery nntp posting host bmdhh299 organization bnr europe ltd , maidenhead , uk x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 31 keith hanlan , wed , 14 apr 1993 19 20 14 gmt wibbled article 1993apr14 ra msstate edu vech ra msstate edu \( craig vechorik \) writes remember correctly , reason bmw 's come expensive , relatively worthless , short lived batteries , 'cause bmw owns interest battery manufacturer 's wrong bmw battery \? 've never problems know numerous people still using original battery 8 10 year old beemers kay , '86 k100rs still original battery 's ok nick \( sufficiently well charged biker \) dod 1069 concise oxford m'lud nick pettefar , contractor large ' ` ` ' ' ` ` ' currently incarcerated bnr , maidenhead , united kingdom npet bnr ca '86 bmw k100rs kay ` ' ' ` ` ' ' ` pres pbwasoh \( uk \) , bs 0002
jearls tekig6 pen tek com \( jeffrey david earls \) subject turbocharged north america \? organization tektronix , inc , beaverton , lines 18 article dcs qmw ac uk davide dcs qmw ac uk \( dave edmondson \) writes extreme example cx500 turbo cost much mike replica ducati good looking cx500 turbo , someone trade duc \? jeff earls jearls tekig6 pen tek com dod ama '89 fj1200 millennium falcon squid factor 16 99 '93 hit button ! han solo ai n't nothin' like 115 mph sweeper idaho rockies
davet interceptor cds tek com \( dave tharp cds \) subject uh , der , whassa deltabox \? organization tektronix colorado data systems , englewood , co lines 21 article unisql uucp ray unisql uucp \( ray shea \) writes someone tell deltabox frame , relation , , frame hawk gt \? way , next time guy comes parking lot sez hey , dude , nice bike , deltabox frame \? say something besides duh , er , huh \? deltabox \( tm \) registered trademark yamaha , used describe aluminum perimeter frame design , used cross section , five sided appearance , probably really called dave tharp dod 0751 ca n't wear davet interceptor cds tek com mra 151 indian scout , '88 k75s '48 indian chief ahrma 751 brother chief '75 r90s \( 151 \) '72 tr 2b \( 751 \) ama 524737 're built like rocks '65 r50 2 velorex '57 nsu max take knocks , 1936 bmw r12 \( compulsive 's harleys employer idea joiner \) give grief
davet interceptor cds tek com \( dave tharp cds \) subject motorcycle security keywords nothing stop really determined thief organization tektronix colorado data systems , englewood , co lines 14 saw bike parked front bar weeks later without dog , wandered find happened said , somebody stole m' damn dog ! left harley behind dave tharp dod 0751 ca n't wear davet interceptor cds tek com mra 151 indian scout , '88 k75s '48 indian chief ahrma 751 brother chief '75 r90s \( 151 \) '72 tr 2b \( 751 \) ama 524737 're built like rocks '65 r50 2 velorex '57 nsu max take knocks , 1936 bmw r12 \( compulsive 's harleys employer idea joiner \) give grief
thompson apple com \( paul thompson \) subject tickets advice worth paid organization apple computer , inc , cupertino , california lines 28 distribution ca ca n't think another subject generates much contradictory advice traffic laws enforcement everybody 's got opinion dead certain right yet information extremely difficult come dmv n't know cops n't know traffic school instructor n't know vehicle code tells part story judges choose interpret laws wide variety ways public large \? seldom hear advice n't disagree something 've experienced n't believe suggest get copy vehicle code , study , sit day two court see really happens read fight ticket , n't miss little section end says chances lousy 're basically screwed may guessed , i'm pretty system california 've carefully prepared court , bringing witnesses revealing serious holes officer 's story , slapped maximum allowable fine \( plus 100 \) message clear judge appreciate john q public trying cases 's advice find ticket take traffic school 's serious matter get lawyer lawyer present exact case , difference sentence paul thompson apple computer
essbaum rchland vnet ibm com \( alexander essbaum \) subject bike sold net 600 miles away ! disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host relva rchland ibm com organization ibm rochester lines 14 article hplsla hp com , kens hplsla hp com \( ken snyder \) writes bikes sold long distances 'd love hear ! bought vfr750 guy san jose via net 's 825 miles according odometer ! mark andy \( living pittsburgh \) bought rz350 dude massachusetts \( connecticut \? \) axel
egreen east sun com \( ed green pixel cruncher \) subject observation helmets organization sun microsystems , rtp , nc lines 21 distribution world reply egreen east sun com nntp posting host laser east sun com article 211353 mavenry altcit eskimo com , maven mavenry altcit eskimo com \( norman hamer \) writes question day passenger helmets , n't know certain 's gonna ride \( like say meet church meeting , yeah , 's ticket \) guidelines \? pick another shoei size backup helmet \( xl \) , maybe get inexpensive one smaller size accomodate likely passenger \? primary concern protecting passenger event crash , fitted helmet size primary concern complying stupid helmet laws , carry real big spare \( put big small head big helmet , small one \) ed green , former ninjaite drinking last night biker , ed green east sun com showed picture said , dod 0111 \( 919 \) 460 8302 go , get know , 'll like ! \( grateful dead \) seemed like least could
sturges oasys dt navy mil \( richard sturges \) subject dot tire date codes reply sturges oasys dt navy mil \( richard sturges \) distribution usa organization carderock division , nswc , bethesda , md lines 12 rec motorcycles , cookson mbunix mitre org \( cookson \) writes nedod mailing list , jack tavares suggested check old tire one tactic getting replaced anyone file read date codes handy \? 's quite simple code week year manufacture rich sturges \( h \) 703 536 4443 nswc carderock division \( w \) 301 227 1670 speak one else , listen
cervi oasys dt navy mil \( mark cervi \) subject bike sold net 600 miles away ! organization nswc , carderock division , annapolis , md , usa lines 15 article hplsla hp com kens hplsla hp com \( ken snyder \) writes bikes sold long distances 'd love hear ! bought moto guzzi univ va grad student charlottesville last spring mark cervi , cervi oasys dt navy mil , \( w \) 410 267 2147 dod '87 moto guzzi sp ii kinda bikes \? moto guzzi 's \? italian mark cervi , , nswc code 852 , annapolis , md cervi oasys dt navy mil , \( w \) 410 267 2147
mmanning icomsim com \( michael manning \) subject bikes contacts organization icom simulations lines 30 article 1993apr13 1 skcla monsanto com skcla monsanto com writes michael \( manning \) must thing work ! michael \( menard \) p highland house \? 'll compare sunglasses let 's see weather saturday sunday sucks today time good \? 're welcome give ones try , want mine 'em think bridge nose holds far face deal two friends tried people use full face helmet , bets sorry fit well took complaint personally yes much desirable squid attire also n't ugly , even opinion , would n't tried michael manning mmanning icomsim com \( nextmail accepted \) `92 `92 ducati 900ss
mmanning icomsim com \( michael manning \) subject bikes , contacts lenses radial keratotomy organization icom simulations lines 22 article rice edu \( jcn rice edu \) writes going try radial keratotomy , want 2 , 000 per eye ! 's lot contact lenses sunglasses ! lot money make one tiny mistake jeff nichols also n't get exactly right eyes change , contacts correct question due strange shape cornea takes surgery michael manning mmanning icomsim com \( nextmail accepted \) `92 `92 ducati 900ss
markb wc novell com \( burnham \) subject ducati 400 opinions wanted organization novell inc lines 28 x xxdate thu , 15 apr 93 11 19 09 gmt nntp posting host 130 57 72 65 x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d12 article mbs news ysu edu albion h bowers , ak954 yfn ysu edu writes oh yeah , 12 10 108 mph quarter slug come , last time used 750s max power peak \? think maybe ride one first , passing judgement , lot maximum acceleration really n't mean imply ninja better duc talked duc owners \( 750ss owners particular \) say power something less overwhelming said , would love 900ss guess bit specific something weighs 750 , go extra cubes think fact 6 shows n't care maximum power \( 's slug though \) exclusion everything else note handling important bought ninja could n't afford duc n't mean , 'll probably getting 900ss next year mark mark burnham \( markb wc novell com \) ama dod alfa romeo 6 '90 ninja 750
davet interceptor cds tek com \( dave tharp cds \) subject rejetting carbs keywords air pump distribution na organization tektronix colorado data systems , englewood , co lines 58 article hydra noaa gov hydra noaa gov \( jeff \) writes talking 4 stroke \( think understand exhaust pulse affect 2 stroke \) , intake valve closed exhaust stroke gas pushed guess gas compression may affect amount pushed limiting factor seems header pipe canister meaning would gases far line \( canister \) really effect exhaust stroke \? gases really compress much \? discussion purposes , ignore dynamic effects like pulses exhaust pipe , try paint useful mental picture 1 unless engine supercharged , pressure available force air intake tract atmospheric time intake valve opened , pressure differential available move air difference combustion chamber pressure \( left exhaust stroke \) atmospheric piston intake stroke , combustion chamber pressure decreased , allowing atmospheric pressure move air intake tract time pressure ever become negative , even approach good vacuum 2 time exhaust valve closing , pressure combustion chamber essentially pressure exhaust system first major flow restriction \( muffler \) note volume gas must flow exhaust much larger volume must flow intake , temperature difference products combustion 3 last 6 8 years , japanese manufacturers started paying attention exhaust intake tuning , pursuit almighty horsepower point time , high performance bikes , substitution aftermarket free flow air filter almost zero affect performance , stock intake system flows well anyway substitution aftermarket exhaust system make little difference , unless \( general \) new exhaust system much louder 4 older bikes , exhaust back pressure dominating factor free flowing air filters substituted , little difference noted , unless free flowing exhaust system installed well 5 general , engine air pump given rpm , anything cause engine pump air , intake exhaust side , cause produce horsepower pumping air require recalibration \( rejetting \) carburetor dave tharp dod 0751 ca n't wear davet interceptor cds tek com mra 151 indian scout , '88 k75s '48 indian chief ahrma 751 brother chief '75 r90s \( 151 \) '72 tr 2b \( 751 \) ama 524737 're built like rocks '65 r50 2 velorex '57 nsu max take knocks , 1936 bmw r12 \( compulsive 's harleys employer idea joiner \) give grief
ub com \( eric kilpatrick \) subject drinking riding nntp posting host pixel ub com reply ub com organization ungermann bass inc andover , lines 7 personally , follow alcohol rule i'm bike view high degree control alcohol could potentially hazardous bike ! get hurt 's fault , n't want wreck katana developed philosophy experiment one beer 6 00 evening volleyball practice 7 00 n't even close intoxication , could n't perform even basic things 8 30 ! made think viewed alcohol intoxication may seem fine , reactions may affected 'll unable recover hitting rock even wind greatly enjoy social drinking , , n't mix riding max enjoyment ! eric
jburnside mit edu \( jamie w burnside \) subject got bike ! \( wanted advice cb900c purchase \) keywords cb900c , purchase , advice reply jburnside mit edu \( jamie w burnside \) organization mit lincoln laboratory lines 31 thanks gave advice cb900 custom recommended , bike compression tested compression little low , even across four cylinders \( 5 psi \) said tested little cold , would explain low numbers \( around 90 \) sound right \? otherwise , bike looked great signs road rash , rust bike looks great ! shop getting tuned new tires metzler me33 tires \( thanks posted thread \) bike big compared bikes \( sure alot harder load trailer \) road legal tomorrow ignoring concerns transmission taking chances reletively new reader , quite impressed usefull info available newsgroup would ask get dod number , 'll probably busy riding \) jamie w burnside \( \) \( \) \( jburnside mit edu \) c \) ,
galileo rtn ca boeing com \( michael bain \) subject fault \? organization boeing commercial airplane group , seattle lines 14 insurance companies sure seem go fault coverage since majority accidents fault , n't imply would pay much higher rates fault system \? cars system , seems make sense surface take legal costs system looks like motorcyclists would get screwed michael chuck bain ca boeing com semi loud pipes save lives
sturges oasys dt navy mil \( richard sturges \) subject rejetting carbs reply sturges oasys dt navy mil \( richard sturges \) organization carderock division , nswc , bethesda , md lines 34 , jumping middle thread may know y'all talking , comments rec motorcycles , davet interceptor cds tek com \( dave tharp cds \) writes 1 unless engine supercharged , pressure available force air intake tract atmospheric time intake valve opened , pressure differential available move air difference combustion chamber pressure \( left exhaust stroke \) atmospheric piston intake stroke , combustion chamber pressure decreased , allowing atmospheric pressure move air intake tract time pressure ever become negative , even approach good vacuum number factors important , three biggest air velocity , air momentum shock waves velocity stacks used years used inside stock number bikes tuned engine rpm , stacks greatly increase speed , thus momentum air rushing air momentum critical getting good air intake momentum air stack outside combustion chamber force way inside long piston begun stroke shock waves used induce air intake prevent fresh air escaping ports shock waves product expansion chambers means presenting \( opening closing \) air motion beyond lost mystery design shock waves rich sturges \( h \) 703 536 4443 nswc carderock division \( w \) 301 227 1670 speak one else , listen
fist iscp bellcore com \( richard pierson \) subject observation helmets nntp posting host foxtrot iscp bellcore com organization bellcore distribution usa lines 40 article 211353 mavenry altcit eskimo com , maven mavenry altcit eskimo com \( norman hamer \) writes grf dropped shoei rf 200 seat bike trying rock onto 's centerstand , chipped heck paint cheerfully spent 59 bottle 's model paint repainted scratches chips 20 minutes question day passenger helmets , n't know certain 's gonna ride \( like say meet church meeting , yeah , 's ticket \) guidelines \? pick another shoei size backup helmet \( xl \) , maybe get inexpensive one smaller size accomodate likely passenger \? rule thumb n't give rides people wear bigger helmet , unless taste runs way , family friends gee , reminds dancer hull , river , saw years ago , would bought bigger helmet \( even bike \) anything else wanted two types ships navy submarines targets ! ! ! 1 xs1100lh dod 956 2 next raise richard pierson e06584 vnet 908 699 6063 internet fist iscp bellcore com , uunet uunet ! bcr ! fist include std disclaimer opinions ! ! ! n't shop malls , buy jeans , jackets ammo store
fist iscp bellcore com \( richard pierson \) subject ggrrrrrr ! ! cages double parking motorcycles pisses ! nntp posting host foxtrot iscp bellcore com organization bellcore distribution usa lines 29 article 1993apr15 dsd es com , bgardner pebbles es com \( blaine gardner \) writes article 34211 castle ed ac uk wbg festival ed ac uk \( w geake \) writes banana one n't , imho ultra sticky labels printed favourite curse good even local hospitals use instead wheel clamps , putting one \( a5 size \) window cage 's local hospital 's favorite curse \? may skin stick frozen bed pan may apple juice mistakenly drawn lab two types ships navy submarines targets ! ! ! 1 xs1100lh dod 956 2 next raise richard pierson e06584 vnet 908 699 6063 internet fist iscp bellcore com , uunet uunet ! bcr ! fist include std disclaimer opinions ! ! ! n't shop malls , buy jeans , jackets ammo store
fist iscp bellcore com \( richard pierson \) subject contact person boots keywords combat nntp posting host foxtrot iscp bellcore com organization bellcore distribution usa lines 42 article 1993apr15 news columbia edu , rdc8 cunixf cc columbia edu \( robert castro \) writes would anyone able help giving contact purchase pair military air borne combat boots \( 9 1 2 size \) boots \( read rec moto \) calf height boots use velcro enclosure phoned around nobody seems carry item admit gone deepest nyc yet search made calls several bigger army navy type stores luck anyone know place carry item well mail order \? help would appreciated currently velcro jump boots issue military , two kinds one made cochran sell 85 00 either clothing sales store us \( price match store \) second co also sold somewhat cheaper design actually n't care wear long 10 high another boot called boot similar construction wellington boot except boot shape straps wrap around nice boots two types ships navy submarines targets ! ! ! 1 xs1100lh dod 956 2 next raise richard pierson e06584 vnet 908 699 6063 internet fist iscp bellcore com , uunet uunet ! bcr ! fist include std disclaimer opinions ! ! ! n't shop malls , buy jeans , jackets ammo store
fist iscp bellcore com \( richard pierson \) subject liability insurance required \? nntp posting host foxtrot iscp bellcore com organization bellcore distribution usa lines 13 one thing say fault would n't two types ships navy submarines targets ! ! ! 1 xs1100lh dod 956 2 next raise richard pierson e06584 vnet 908 699 6063 internet fist iscp bellcore com , uunet uunet ! bcr ! fist include std disclaimer opinions ! ! ! n't shop malls , buy jeans , jackets ammo store
fist iscp bellcore com \( richard pierson \) subject motorcycle security keywords nothing stop really determined thief nntp posting host foxtrot iscp bellcore com organization bellcore distribution usa lines 24 article 2500 tekgen bv tek com , davet interceptor cds tek com \( dave tharp cds \) writes saw bike parked front bar weeks later without dog , wandered find happened said , somebody stole m' damn dog ! left harley behind animal rights people know bike riding dogs cats two types ships navy submarines targets ! ! ! 1 xs1100lh dod 956 2 next raise richard pierson e06584 vnet 908 699 6063 internet fist iscp bellcore com , uunet uunet ! bcr ! fist include std disclaimer opinions ! ! ! n't shop malls , buy jeans , jackets ammo store
kens lsid hp com \( ken snyder \) subject buy 750 \? article hpscit organization hewlett packard santa clara site lines 47 nntp posting host lsid hp com x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 10 mark n \( cs rit edu \) wrote market bike recently found 1990 honda 750 dealership bike 47 , 000 miles around 4500 two previous owners , employees dealership , told , took good care bike two questions 1 \) many miles bike \? know would many miles car unfamiliar life span bikes 2 \) decent price \? also prices used bikes blue book bikes like cars \? thanks advice give mark mark , many miles vfr750 sold \( well maintained \) '87 miles engine mint condition bike needed steering head bearings fork bushings seals guy bought mechanic pull valve covers look top end , compression check etc confirmed mint price , 4500 seems little steep bought '90 12k miles year ago \( absolutely cherry condition \) 4800 , ask bank credit union going price 've seen couple ads vfr 's 4500 dollar range said low miles mint condition n't actually go look vfr sweet bike last forever maintain one thing look , btw , soft front end vfr indication , 12k miles fork springs totally shot progressive springs \( 55 \) fixed right good luck , k e n ken snyder ms loc 330 hewlett packard co lsid lake stevens instrument div 8600 soper hill road gte tn \( 206 \) 335 2253 335 2253 everett , wa 1298 un ix kens lsid hp com
kens lsid hp com \( ken snyder \) subject buy 750 \? article hpscit organization hewlett packard santa clara site lines 26 nntp posting host lsid hp com x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 10 mark n \( cs rit edu \) wrote market bike recently found 1990 honda 750 dealership bike 47 , 000 miles around 4500 two previous owners , employees dealership , told , took good care bike two questions 1 \) many miles bike \? know would many miles car unfamiliar life span bikes 2 \) decent price \? also prices used bikes blue book bikes like cars \? thanks advice give mark k e n ken snyder ms loc 330 hewlett packard co lsid lake stevens instrument div 8600 soper hill road gte tn \( 206 \) 335 2253 335 2253 everett , wa 1298 un ix kens lsid hp com
kens lsid hp com \( ken snyder \) subject ggrrrrrr ! ! cages double parking motorcycles pisses ! article hpscit distribution world organization hewlett packard santa clara site lines 16 nntp posting host lsid hp com x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 10 reading folks things illegally parked cars made wonder 's going carry cinder blocks bike \( \? ! \? ! \? \) ready serious damage \( key etc \) cage idea chain lube n't chain 's anymore ! ! ! seems reasonable , permanent damage lots work get ! \( n't ask know \) use anywhere , windshield , door handles , , etc nasty mood i'm 's raining k e n ken snyder ms loc 330 hewlett packard co lsid lake stevens instrument div 8600 soper hill road gte tn \( 206 \) 335 2253 335 2253 everett , wa 1298 un ix kens lsid hp com
ai598 cleveland freenet edu \( mike sturdevant \) subject bikes vs horses \( insect impacts f organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 34 reply ai598 cleveland freenet edu \( mike sturdevant \) nntp posting host slc4 ins cwru edu previous article , npet bnr ca \( nick pettefar \) says jonathan e quist , thu , 15 apr 1993 14 26 42 gmt wibbled article txd able mkt 3com com txd esd 3com com \( tom dietrich \) writes previous article , egreen east sun com \( ed green pixel cruncher \) says lots things , none quoted nice thing horses though , break middle nowhere , eat 're rather tasty fuel 's bit cheaper , per gallon \( \) perhaps unfortunately eat amount every day matter much ride n't fuel die annual basis , spend much less bike stuff amy wonder wife horse stuff two horses , 've got umm , , 11 bikes ride constantly , rides four five times week even count insurance cost garage built , i'm getting cheaper fun \( imho \) go fast take chances mike
ryan cousineau compdyn questor org \( ryan cousineau \) subject dod reply ryan cousineau compdyn questor org \( ryan cousineau \) distribution world organization computer dynamics vancouver b c \( 604 \) 986 9937 \( 604 \) 255 9937 lines 46 js stafford vax2 winona msus edu \( john stafford \) js article cronkite central sun com , js doc webrider central sun com \( steve bunis \) wrote js js thicker vinyl \? js geeky temporary \? mean , js exempt little 's sick ! want ! make 'em , promise order wannabe ! cheesy live ride eagles sitting shelf , waiting big ride coast \( looks like may hit points farther south expected get contact bay area denizens \? replies address n' charlie along early mid may \) seriously like idea temporary \( \? \? \? \) fits whole dod image sounds bad , 's really worse ryan cousinetc 1982 yamaha vision xz550 black pig inverness live ride kotrb 1958 ajs 500 c king rat work dod 0863 'd squid could afford bike flame ryan cousineau compdyn questor org vancouver , bc , canada live js js john stafford minnesota state university winona js standard disclaimers apply slmr 2 1a lucas built weapons , wars would n't start , either computer dynamics bbs 604 255 9937 \( hst \) 604 986 9937 \( v32 \) vancouver , bc , canada easy access , low rates , friendly sysop
ryan cousineau compdyn questor org \( ryan cousineau \) subject motorcycle courier \( reply ryan cousineau compdyn questor org \( ryan cousineau \) distribution world organization computer dynamics vancouver b c \( 604 \) 986 9937 \( 604 \) 255 9937 lines 19 jl ns subject motorcycle courier \( summer job \) 'd like thank everyone replied probably start looking earnest may , return trip pacific coast \( geographical feature , bike \) ryan cousinetc 1982 yamaha vision xz550 black pig inverness live ride kotrb 1958 ajs 500 c king rat work dod 0863 'd squid could afford bike flame ryan cousineau compdyn questor org vancouver , bc , canada live slmr 2 1a bike , travel quickly quickly computer dynamics bbs 604 255 9937 \( hst \) 604 986 9937 \( v32 \) vancouver , bc , canada easy access , low rates , friendly sysop
shz mare att com \( keeper 'tude \) subject live free , quietly , die organization office 'tude licensing nntp posting host binky lines 7 article d0i sixgun east sun com , egreen east sun com \( ed green pixel cruncher \) writes know sounds ludicrous biker advocate restrictions biking biking forum , n't mean former motorcyclist \? roid
shz mare att com \( keeper 'tude \) subject riceburner respect organization office 'tude licensing nntp posting host binky lines 14 article 1993apr14 megatek com , randy megatek com \( randy davis \) writes rider \( pilot \? \) i'm happy 've effect choice words , seth \) \) time could get respectable response posting like randy 's post n't count 'cause saw responses n't want feel ignored \( thanks randy ! \) curious dod thing get number \? \( \) roid
shz mare att com \( keeper 'tude \) subject riceburner respect organization office 'tude licensing nntp posting host binky lines 11 article cellar org , craig cellar org \( saint craig \) writes anyone true rider real riding attitude offer wave , weather harley honda bike , serious case bike better 're low 'll find case harley riders , however still give wave , ride secure knowlege i'm better huh \? roid
rwf2 ns1 cc lehigh edu \( robert william fusi \) subject recommendation front tire organization lehigh university lines 37 article ace unix amherst edu , nrmendel unix amherst edu \( nathaniel \) writes ken orr \( orr epcot spdc ti com \) wrote article cs unix amherst edu nrmendel unix amherst edu \( nathaniel mendell \) writes steve mansfield \( smm rodan uu net \) wrote yes , front tire dead minimal tread left , 's time new one recommendations good tire front \? i'm riding almost brand new back steve mansfield system 've learned says 're equal la w smm uunet uu net streets reality , weak poor fall 1983 suzuki let 's tip power balance tear crown dod 1718 educate masses , 'll burn white house queensryche speak word best thing match front back , \? given \( perfect \? \) good tire , go one perfect rear match front me33 laser dod 306 k ama orr epcot spdc ti com yeah , said \) nathaniel zx 10 dod 0812 yes , definitely need front tire motorcycle grin
cjackson adobe com \( curtis jackson \) subject act front traffic jerks organization adobe systems incorporated , mountain view lines 19 article lynx unm edu chtm eece unm edu \( denis \) writes heavy traffic slow bit , mostly buffer zone front balance minimal buffer behind , also often find jerk behind notice traffic moving faster lanes , switch one , pass fine , keep better eye jerk behind , looking ahead , rather front , splitting attention ahead mirrors pretty damned complicated make back motion hand arm , second third time even braindead cager backs n't back , find way get hell cager either psychotic , drunk , complete asshole case , n't want anywhere near , especially front curtis jackson cjackson mv us adobe com '91 hawk gt '81 maxim 650 dod 0721 kotb '91 black lab mix studley doright '92 collie golden george justification taking away individuals' freedom guise public safety thomas jefferson
uucp \( bennett lee \) subject choking ninja problem reply starr kuhub cc ukans edu 's message 13 apr 93 15 34 41 cst organization organized \? \? surely jest ! lines 22 article 1993apr13 kuhub cc ukans edu starr kuhub cc ukans edu writes need help '85 , put slip 's carbs match set k n filters replaced stock huge flat spot 5 thousand rpm gear especially frustrating highway , bike likes cruise 80mph happens 5 , 0000 rpm sixth gear 've tuned n't seem help thinking new carbs injection system gpz 1100 anyone suggestions fix besides restoring stock \? starr kuhub ukans cc edu brain dead ted sound like carbs properly , take shop get done right shop , get money back , go another shop bennett 84 v 65 sabre i'm drowning , throw orlando , fl 73 xl 250 ! ! sdc ccur com
keller hubble ifa hawaii edu \( tim keller \) subject fj1100 review organization institute astronomy , hawaii lines 44 thinking , might also want think installed set bosch air horns ordered dennis kirk \( pg 282 latest catalog \) '85 fj1100 rated 7 meters installed using 10 gage wire battery relay compressor ground stock horn connectors fit relay pins fine soldered connections relay compressor , used crimp type battery connector inline fuse connector installed compressor forward fuse box front fairing tie wrapping steering head frame black steel tube frame used support front fairing remove front fairing , fits outside frame inside fairing two vertical supports front fuses depending tight fairing follows frame , able fit somewhere fairing compressor 2 diameter 5 long relay mounted front steering head frame \( small plenty good places found perfect place horns required tie wraps mount horns fit inside front fairing frame stick either side front air , behind turn signals back horns point back towards center bike come real close gas tank connects front part frame enough room outside allow full lock lock clearance , nice cut outs frame back horn go short horn even fairing , long one sticks inch , really noticable unless look closely end pointing slightly maybe 30 degrees straight ahead \( perfect cagers trying change lanes \) questions mounting , email , try explain better bike red , may want paint first work ask \? , , loud sound like european sports car truck , vast improvement stock used least daily since installing , 10 amp fuse blown yet \( although , duration horn blasts short \) 've repeatedly scared shit friends , even though know horns , still jump perfect keeping sidewalk bottom line work , loud enough cause pain suffering stupid lane changing cages \( well take years lives \) relatively easy install fj ymmv '85 fj1100 get way horns looks like suit 'd fight fire comment aerostich
organization university illinois chicago , academic computer center uicvm uic edu subject buying advice needed lines 18 looking advice buying anyone know inherent flaws bike may problems look \? insurance rates \( bike \) \? also , person never ridden motorcycle yet buying 1100 start crazy \? told people start small others enough handle 1100 right start \( 6'4 210 pounds \) others might tad bit small oh yeah , one question anybody chicago area know good instruction schools programs could get go buy one kill getting home thanks , brian p please email get much chance read group thanks \)
cam castle ed ac uk \( chris malcolm \) subject countersteering faq please post organization edinburgh university lines 36 article 1993apr16 rd hydro ca jlevine rd hydro ca \( jody levine \) writes seem agreement two explanations one use handlebars lean moving motorcycle question , one effect dominant , one \? idea would design experiment would two characteristics , see effect produces similar result one us bikes familiar point , experiments would difficult know enough physics situation calculations fact three effects contributing leaning bike begin turn 1 gyro effect causing torque twists bike 2 contact patch shifted one side , causing bike fall 3 contact patch accelerated side , causing torque twists bike take average bike rider , average bike wheel , speeds 5 , 15 , 50 mph \( say \) calculate much twist bars would needed produce \( say \) 20 degrees lean \( say \) 2 seconds effect alone guess slow speeds 2 dominant , high speeds 3 dominant , speeds 1 contributes far bugger , relatively speaking way , similar problem runner wants run round corner get leaned corner fast \? running group could start counter footing arguments falling tried work go round corners \? chris malcolm cam uk ac ed 44 \( 0 \) 31 650 department artificial intelligence , edinburgh university 5 forrest hill , edinburgh , , uk dod 205
prb access digex com \( pat \) subject kawasaki 440 ae sale organization express access online communications usa lines 6 distribution world nntp posting host access digex net included sale cover cover sold separately trailer sold pat
jae w chang jae cmu edu subject info sport cruisers organization junior , electrical computer engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 15 nntp posting host po4 andrew cmu edu i'm looking sport cruiser factory installed fairings \( full half \) , hard saddle bags , , still sporty look particularly like r100rs k75 rt , k series bmw bikes wondering comparable type bikes produced companies bmw thanks info , jae jae cmu edu
daved world std com \( dave dorfman \) subject boom ! dog attack ! organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 33 azw aber ac uk \( andy woodward \) writes better still , reverse sequence , hit bugger accelleration \( \) hate things attack dog thinks run away , established dominance funny noisy sheep things , attack every bike comes along fun hurt bugger , learns bikes order , may saved life future biker , whose evasive action avoid dog might otherwise put truck never avoid dog dog 's sake , 're hate admit seem sort twisted logic approach 's bikers world dogs another worthless adversary remember wear least calf height leather boots , \( case dog gets lucky sinks teeth attacking foot \) go gusto , dog n't retreat street tail legs next time see really n't done bit fellow bikers also applies cages sorry ca n't go far , dog armored cage n't seem like fair fight dog control , menace road users , felt ensuring safety means destruction 's , forcing game , dog eat dog world dave
artc world std com \( art campbell \) subject moa stuff like ra organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 17 ok 've got contested election inept leadership question history bmw organization lead formation something going oa years ago precipitated formation two competing owner 's groups \? flames i'm \( relatively new \) member groups besides difference magazines , seems major difference ra guys seem fun art art campbell artc world std com compuserve com dod 358 real bmws two wheels opinion , 's nothing world beats vincent girl richard thompson
karen angelo amd com \( karen black \) subject happy easter ! organization advanced micro devices , santa clara , ca lines 18 ranck joesbar cc vt edu \( wm l ranck \) writes nick pettefar \( npet bnr ca \) wrote english cars rover , reliant , morgan , bristol , rolls royce , etc talk harleys using old technology , morgan people really like use old technology think suspension design n't changed since went 3 wheels 4 back 's like reached pinnacle good design point either well , want pick morgan , attack ash \( wood \) frame hand bent metal skin \( try get replacement \) \) thought suspension one 's better features karen black
mrc ikkoku kan panda com \( mark crispin \) subject dogs article ikkoku k ms c 735160298 1147902781 mrc organization university washington lines 52 nntp posting host ikkoku kan panda com mime version 1 0 content type text plain charset us ascii i'm biker dog lover first foremost , want mention common sense 's choice killing dog getting injured killed , one rational decision insane animal rights kook would put dog first second , 's useful learn read dog 's body language react dog chasing thinks 's game \( 're playing \) completely different react dog hostile intent third , 's useful learn present dog dogs social beasts , recognize domination submission hierarchy dog , two types fellow creatures dominates , dominate need unambiguously represent latter class god easily angered anger terrible god also amused one properly dominance , may even rare occasions dispense kind word , kind word , even \( oh joy oh rapture \) dog ! , relate biking \? well , first , 's good idea assume dogs chase motorcycles think 's game , overt hostility msf suggestion good one see dog coming , slow determines particular place interception \( \) reach spot , punch throttle reaches 're already long gone dogs take seconds react new input , definitely cannot comprehend acceleration motorcycle capable hostile dog , one repeatedly encounter , stronger measures may necessary face first important make sure never face dog territory face road , driveway necessary , large stick , rolled newspaper , etc \( something beast understand something hurt \) stand ground , slowly advance mental attitude angry going dispense terrible punishment larger dog , greater anger dogs pick anger , pick fear , since home territory , may suddenly dawn dog perhaps territory , prepared fight death dogs decide good idea retreat territory least home advantage 'll also observe satisfied retreat \( gesture submission \) thus escaped punishment interesting thing dogs body language great deal effective communicating body language , less actually 7 years 93 pound beast , 've learned tricks think
hamp hampshire edu subject misc buying info needed organization hampshire college lines 15 nntp posting host hamp hampshire edu hi thinking buying motorcycle questions buying guide new used motorcycles \( lists reliability , go buying process , look , etc \) \? pricing guide new used motorcycles \( blue book \) \? also books articles riding cross country , motorcycle camping , etc \? guide motorcycles \? related information helpful please respond directly thanks lot jordan
cs cmu edu \( \) subject draining battery nntp posting host sp cs cmu edu organization carnegie mellon university lines 12 problem battery '83 honda cb650 nighthawk every week dead ride bike every day , battery new charging system checked thoroughly seems fine suspicion draining somewhere idea causing problem \? please help since mechanic clueless !
microsoft com \( chris \) subject riceburner respect organization microsoft corporation lines 23 rec motorcycles klinger ccu umanitoba ca \( jorg klinger \) writes 1993apr15 192558 3314 icomsim com mmanning icomsim com \( michael manning \) writes people wave return wave i'm harley harley riders seldom wave back i'm duck squids n't wave , return waves ever , even , tell take hand bars fall ! problem squids ca n't recognize 's waves 're riding cruiser , wave lifting two three fingers left hand , without first removing hand handlebar 're riding rocket , lower left hand ankle level , palm forward , call wave generic bike riders actually seem raise hand entirely handlebar wave around , 's easy tell 're waving chris
sfsuvax1 sfsu edu \( john \) subject lane sharing ca organization california state university , sacramento lines 11 three years riding cities san jose , santa clara , sunnyvale never came conflict local police lane splitting habits \( three cities listed earlier anti splitting one way another \) ca n't say whether due luck , police kindness , actually ordinances cities , continue
dean fringe rain com \( dean woodward \) subject boom ! dog attack ! article fringe organization organization mass confusion lines 66 ryan cousineau compdyn questor org \( ryan cousineau \) writes previous posting dog attacks must generated bad karma something 've weathered attempted dog attacks using approved method slow screw dog 's triangulation target , take laugh dog , far behind time , n't work n't time riding hill leading house , encountered liver white springer spaniel \( relation springer softail , springer spagthorpe , close relation spagthorpe viking \) actually , dog encountered intent harm interesting dog collision story deleted worries accident n't think could prevented except traveling much slower necessarily unreasonable suggestion residential area , riding around speed limit worry would happened car instead dog , console thought would take truly insane bdi cager whip blind driveway 15 30 mph matter , many driveways long enough car hit 30 mph end \? eagerly await comment driveway half neighbor 's driveways long enough good 80 clicks \( velocity impaired \) wanted granted , live country , however 've seen neighbors whip driveways mentioned 30 mph quite bit claim tell 's noone road quite ways despite nearly hit one driving 4x4 , twice taking 10 speed bicycle hood car pulled , saw , stopped driver car two months apart obmoto scary relevant part people live type twisty two lane favor riding know damn well ca n't see bike , could n't see pickup ryan cousinetc 1982 yamaha vision xz550 black pig inverness live ride kotrb 1958 ajs 500 c king rat work dod 0863 'd squid could afford bike flame ryan cousineau compdyn questor org vancouver , bc , canada live slmr 2 1a 's hurt dammit jim , i'm doctor oh , right computer dynamics bbs 604 255 9937 \( hst \) 604 986 9937 \( v32 \) vancouver , bc , canada easy access , low rates , friendly sysop 's nothing like pitter patter little feet , followed words hey 're daddy ! \( sorry \) dean woodward want step world \? dean fringe rain com 's socio psychotic state bliss '82 virago 920 guns'n'roses , 'my world' dod 0866
keithh bnr ca \( keith hanlan \) subject insurance lotsa points nntp posting host organization bell northern research ltd , ottawa lines 16 article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu \( andrew infante \) writes well , looks like i'm f cked insurance dwi 91 beemer , rec vehicle , 'll cost almost 1200 bucks insure year \? sell bike car start taking bus way keep drinking seems priorities lay expect enough us list lost friends driving drunks collective sympathy somewhat showing great restraint , keith hanlan keithh bnr ca bell northern research , ottawa , canada 613 765
bgardner pebbles es com \( blaine gardner \) subject ducati 400 opinions wanted nntp posting host 130 187 85 70 organization evans sutherland computer corporation lines 29 article news ysu edu ak954 yfn ysu edu \( albion h bowers \) writes previous article , bgardner pebbles es com \( blaine gardner \) says guess i'm touch , exactly ducati 400 \? v twin , half v twin balance weight 2nd cylinder would go \? 12 second 1 4 400 n't bad sorry , specific 750 ss ran 12 10 108 17 last small v twin duc got us \( 400 based v twin \) , ran 13 0 103 modern carbs put 400 high 12s 105 btw , fzr ran mid 12s , latest crop japanese run 's hard remember , new clobber old , top end roll technology stands still one hard remember , bought new '78 \) 3rd place '78 speed wars \( behind cbx xs eleven \) 11 8 113 1 4 mile , 75 horses would n't even make good 600 days , paid 2800 , technology n't thing 's changed course 'd still rather ride old gs across three states 600 's guess 's indication much things changed 12 second 400 n't seem far line blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com
behanna syl nj nec com \( chris behanna \) subject riceburner respect organization nec systems laboratory , inc lines 14 article 1993apr15 cbnewsm cb att com shz mare att com \( keeper 'tude \) writes huh \? roid completely different tack , eventual outcome babe vs bad mouthed biker \? later , chris behanna dod 114 1983 h fxwg wide glide jubilee 's red lady behanna syl nj nec com 1975 cb360t baby bike disclaimer would nec 1991 zx 11 needs name agree anyway \? raised pack wild corn dogs
ranck joesbar cc vt edu \( wm l ranck \) subject happy easter ! organization virginia tech , blacksburg , virginia lines 23 nntp posting host joesbar cc vt edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 karen black \( karen angelo amd com \) wrote ranck joesbar cc vt edu \( wm l ranck \) writes nick pettefar \( npet bnr ca \) wrote english cars rover , reliant , morgan , bristol , rolls royce , etc talk harleys using old technology , morgan people really like use old technology well , want pick morgan , attack ash \( wood \) frame hand bent metal skin \( try get replacement \) \) thought suspension one 's better features hey ! n't picking morgan use old technology 's said 's nothing wrong using old technology people still use shovels dig holes even though lots new powered implements dig holes bill ranck \( 703 \) 231 9503 bill ranck vt edu computing center , virginia polytchnic inst state univ , blacksburg , va
joe rider cactus org \( joe senner \) subject bmw moa members read ! reply joe rider cactus org distribution usa organization lines 27 karr cs cornell edu \( david karr \) writes get organization act easy say , says little one really organization actually largely determined president directors , far see 's makes important vote election officers remember right , heard last election , 18 members actually cast votes wonder current board friends relatives make 18 membership \) \) certainly plan staying club long enough vote see results strike bmwmoa lot less politically active \( state national arenas , \) c organizations change \? join groups already politics \? would n't support moa becoming politically active sense ama already knows 'd rather see moa support ama manner ama needs think could accomplished one strong front rather two coordinated ones joe senner joe rider cactus org austin area ride mailing list ride rider cactus org texas splatterfest mailing list fest rider cactus org
joe rider cactus org \( joe senner \) subject bmw moa members read ! reply joe rider cactus org distribution world organization lines 25 vech ra msstate edu \( craig vechorik \) writes wrote slash two blues bit humor seems lacking moa owners news , stuff rode first day , saw , rode second day , saw admit surprise find something interesting read boring worthless mag ones get body know sense humor went people \? though still mine , dunno think people see intended humor , , liked article seem forget 've stepped political arena well may intend something 're walking china store carrying 2 head everything say says something would represent membership given day n't look far american politics see light hearted jokes one segment population someone obmoto manage reference 2 \) joe senner joe rider cactus org austin area ride mailing list ride rider cactus org texas splatterfest mailing list fest rider cactus org
joe rider cactus org \( joe senner \) subject bmw moa members read ! reply joe rider cactus org distribution world organization lines 9 cdw2t dayhoff med virginia edu \( dances federal rangers \) writes i'm going buy bmw cast vote groucho thought gonna buy bmw superior power handling joe senner joe rider cactus org austin area ride mailing list ride rider cactus org texas splatterfest mailing list fest rider cactus org
dug pwd hp com \( dug smith \) subject ducati 400 opinions wanted organization hewlett packard , messaging centre , uk lines 4 spoke sales 3x , ducati dealer , nothing good say appears underpowered , \( basically , 's 750 900 engine \) , quality problems \( rusty frame ! ! \) save pennies buy 900 \)
prange nickel ucs indiana edu \( henry prange \) subject bmw moa members read ! nntp posting host nickel ucs indiana edu organization indiana university lines 21 first heard academic politics thought seems apply bmwmoa politics dirty stakes small cares \? get dues worth ads occasional technical articles news skip generally articles someone 's trek across iowa folks get thrilled power bmwmoa , deserve whatever sad lives provide btw , voted new blood keep things stirred henry prange physiology iu sch med , , dod 0821 bmwmoa gsi 215 ride '92 r100gs '91 rx 7 conv cage 2 '91 explorer cage 2 four tenets major religions 1 right 2 wrong 3 hence , deserve punished 4
ranck joesbar cc vt edu \( wm l ranck \) subject extraordinary footpeg engineering organization virginia tech , blacksburg , virginia lines 26 nntp posting host joesbar cc vt edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 exb0405 csdvax csd unsw edu au wrote okay dod'ers , 's goddamn mystery ya ! oh ! love puzzle watson ! games ! today turning 90 degree corner like day , slight difference rough spot right path caused suspension compress mid corner part bike hit ground tangible thunk pulled first opportunity damage stuff deleted okay engineering types , f k explain \? rip tightly fitting steel thread threaded hole \( alloy \) without damaging thread hole \? sort hi tech design let guess making left turn , correct \? edge stud contacting road caused turn making right turn would tightened stud bill ranck \( 703 \) 231 9503 bill ranck vt edu computing center , virginia polytchnic inst state univ , blacksburg , va
leavitt cs umd edu \( mr bill \) subject countersteering faq please post organization cafe edge universe lines 43 mjs sys uea ac uk \( mike sixsmith \) writes mjs secondly , mjs tyre road , suspension geometry ground clearance mjs motorcycle dictate quickly swerve avoid obstacles , mjs knowledge physics rider 's ears seriously mjs suggesting countersteering knowledge enables corner faster mjs competently could manage otherwise \? \? egreen east sun com writes ed 's , hey ed , n't give chance ! sheesh ! answer , absolutely ! , ed eloquently describes ed put two riders identical machines 's ed one knows 's , , faster may ed possible improve technique idea , ed trial error , effective methodology ed understanding technique steering motorcycle one ed improve technique \( hold applies human ed endeavor \) herein lies key thread kindly note difference responses ed \( \) talking knowing riding technique , mike arguing knowing physics behind possible taught technique countersteering \( ie push bar inside turn go way \) without learn gyroscopes ice cream cones seen parallel thread stuff mainly interest techno motorcycle geeks like readers rec motorcycles \) , n't need taught average student learning c steering mike n't seem able make distinction know people carve circles around could n't tell newton hand , know intelligent , well educated people think steer motorcycle either 1 \) leaning , 2 \) steering la bicycles , 3 \) combination 1 2 knowledge physics n't get squat knowledge technique ! mr bill
car377 cbnewsj cb att com \( charles rogers \) subject riceburner respect organization summary subtlety , subtlety lines 12 article cellar org , craig cellar org \( saint craig \) writes anyone true rider real riding attitude offer wave , weather harley honda bike , serious case bike better 're low may wave wink one eye 'course , 's hard see shield sunglasses , hey , 're true rider real riding attitude , 'll sense chuck rogers car377 torreys att com
car377 cbnewsj cb att com \( charles rogers \) subject dogs organization summary abnormal canine psychology lines 21 article ms c 735160298 1147902781 mrc ikkoku kan panda com , mrc ikkoku kan panda com \( mark crispin \) writes hostile dog , one repeatedly encounter , stronger measures may necessary face first important make sure never face dog territory face road , driveway necessary , large stick , rolled newspaper , etc \( something beast understand something hurt \) stand ground , slowly advance mental attitude angry going dispense terrible punishment larger dog , greater anger tactic depends effectiveness dog 's conformance psychological norm may actually apply particular dog 've tried success , wo n't work charlie manson dog one 's really , really stupid large irish setter taught yard \( apparently territory \) one day i'm sure playing game game probably kill angry neighbor dispense terrible punishment chuck rogers car377 torreys att com
small tornado seas ucla edu \( james f small \) subject 's assholes organization school engineering applied sciences , ucla lines 26 article kingston cs ucla edu \) article lee seas ucla edu small thunder seas ucla edu \( james f small \) writes \) 's 3 asshole scooter owners triple parked behind \) bike today \) \) jim calling assholes , 's next \? 're going flame , learn spell \) besides , endemic two wheeled community believe jason , wise , respected \( hahahha \) , made stereotypical remark unsophisticated i'm sorry come ivory tower stoop \( would say \) , , obviously , lower level besides , endemic playing community \( drive volvos \) remember , send flames cs ucla edu need formal education provide dod 2024
howland noc arc nasa gov \( curt howland \) subject safe driving organization nasa science internet project office lines 32 article cvbnetprime com , rbemben timewarp prime com \( rich bemben \) writes never rear 1 4 either side cage pass make positive possible ca n't pass fully , least make sure attempt make driver aware least getting area vision reads lot like philosophies , book five rings much section long sword strong decisive hmmm things change ride four eyes thing call pillion ! rich fear evil men name evil , heaven protect us evil men name good power corrupts check explosion cryptography policy friday caused curt howland ace dod 0663 eff 569 howland nsipo nasa gov '82 v45 sabre meddle afairs wizards , makes soggy hard light
fields cis ohio state edu \( jonathan david fields \) subject misc buying info needed organization ohio state university dept computer info science lines 24 distribution usa nntp posting host frigate cis ohio state edu hi thinking buying motorcycle questions buying guide new used motorcycles \( lists reliability , go buying process , look , etc \) \? pricing guide new used motorcycles \( blue book \) \? also books articles riding cross country , motorcycle camping , etc \? guide motorcycles \? related information helpful please respond directly thanks lot jordan also thanks , jonathan fields fields cis ohio state edu
csc wsu edu \( william e johns \) subject need wheel originator bill csc wsu edu keywords '92 organization washington state university distribution na lines 18 anyone rear wheel pd 'd like part \? anyone know might find one salvage \? long i'm getting luggage room , thought 'd carry spare ride free , bill csc wsu edu prez dod ama spi 7 18 0002 0001 special volvo could anyone ask \? pain inevitable , suffering optional
microsoft com \( chris \) subject live free , quietly , die organization microsoft corporation lines 8 rec motorcycles egreen east sun com writes revving throttle requires either dis engaging clutch , accelerating 's harley chris
howland noc arc nasa gov \( curt howland \) subject v max handling request organization nasa science internet project office lines 14 article 1993apr15 222224 1 ntuvax ntu ac sg , ba7116326 ntuvax ntu ac sg writes hello ican anyone handson experience riding yamaha v max , pls kindly comment handling remember commercial cheap , top heavy import cage back , driver says wearing stuck fake tv smile really goes straight ! fits
howland noc arc nasa gov \( curt howland \) subject got bike ! \( wanted advice cb900c purchase \) keywords cb900c , purchase , advice organization nasa science internet project office lines 7 article 1993apr15 mit edu , jburnside mit edu \( jamie w burnside \) writes reletively new reader , quite impressed usefull info available newsgroup n't \?
howland noc arc nasa gov \( curt howland \) subject dogs organization nasa science internet project office lines 27 article ms c 735160298 1147902781 mrc ikkoku kan panda com , mrc ikkoku kan panda com \( mark crispin \) writes i'm biker dog lover wonder bikers horrid reputation go find human ! interesting thing dogs body language great deal effective communicating body language , less actually agree completely unfortunately , majority feelings , even start think rationally dog trying kill , fear 's moment set , like said bit road whatever , 've never problem dogs curt howland ace dod 0663 eff 569 howland nsipo nasa gov '82 v45 sabre meddle afairs wizards , makes soggy hard light
bgardner pebbles es com \( blaine gardner \) subject rgv posing ! ! nntp posting host 130 187 85 70 organization evans sutherland computer corporation lines 13 article speedy 153 engr latech edu speedy engr latech edu \( speedy mercer \) writes article spam maths adelaide edu au spam maths adelaide edu au \( adam \) writes squid deleted 5 helment laws vary state state state \( louisiana \) law personaly , would go 2 feet bike without one law law helment save life 'll go 2 feet , draw line 3 blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com
tobias convex com \( allen tobias \) subject comments 1984 honda interceptor 1000 \? nntp posting host hydra convex com organization convex computer corporation , richardson , tx , usa x disclaimer message written user convex computer corp opinions expressed user necessarily convex lines 27 article skyfox howp skyfox writes hi considering purchase 1984 honda 1000cc interceptor cdn \( us \) n't know mileage bike , picture magazine , looks good shape anybody enlighten whether good purchase \? good bike \? first bike \( realize , beginner , 1000cc considered bit much bike heard friends beginners start would started bigger bike one careful drive outside skill level \) considered \( posted two weeks ago \) purchase 1982 yamaha seca turbo km , little wary prospect deal turbo \( road shop \) may still consider bike \( price dropped 1300 1100 cdn \) , honda seems good bike comments \? one word heavy steers heavy , turns require alot effort hard get access large v 4 motor weak small front forks anti dive gizmos !
jd zorro tyngsboro us \( jeff derienzo \) subject bike sale , usa keywords wicked cool organization , tyngsboro , lines 15 've recently become father twins ! n't think afford keep 2 bikes 2 babies babies staying , 1 harleys going 1988 883 4000 mi \( hey , wife 's bike \) , chain secondary , laced wheels , , tachometer , saddlebags supports , bar , se high flow air cleaner dark candy red 3700 jeff derienzo jd zorro tyngsboro us
joe rider cactus org \( joe senner \) subject shaft drives wheelies reply joe rider cactus org distribution rec organization lines 9 xlyx vax5 cit cornell edu \( xlyx vax5 cit cornell edu \) writes possible wheelie motorcycle shaft drive \? yes joe senner joe rider cactus org austin area ride mailing list ride rider cactus org texas splatterfest mailing list fest rider cactus org
behanna syl nj nec com \( chris behanna \) subject flashing anyone \? keywords flashing organization nec systems laboratory , inc lines 31 article 1993apr15 news columbia edu rdc8 cunixf cc columbia edu \( robert castro \) writes hello , bike hazard lights \( front back turn signals flash \) since live nj commute nyc number tolls one must pay route arriving toll booth switch hazards warn motorists taking longer 2 1 2 seconds make transaction taking gloves , getting money coin changer pocket , making transaction , putting gloves back takes little time average cager takes make transaction paying toll also notice cagers tend get message usually go another booth question , good bad thing \? sounds like good thing others tend \? , whenever n't handy dandy automatic coin toll payer \( annette \) thanks tip later , chris behanna dod 114 1983 h fxwg wide glide jubilee 's red lady behanna syl nj nec com 1975 cb360t baby bike disclaimer would nec 1991 zx 11 needs name agree anyway \? raised pack wild corn dogs
behanna syl nj nec com \( chris behanna \) subject coolant organization nec systems laboratory , inc lines 12 motorcycles liquid cooled persuasion , brand coolant use \? looking aluminum safe coolant , preferably phosphate free , preferably cheaper 13 gallon \( believe kaw dealer wants 4 95 quart official blessed holy kawasaki coolant ! ! ! way i'm paying \) thanks , chris behanna dod 114 1983 h fxwg wide glide jubilee 's red lady behanna syl nj nec com 1975 cb360t baby bike disclaimer would nec 1991 zx 11 needs name agree anyway \? raised pack wild corn dogs
mcguire cs utexas edu \( tommy marcus mcguire \) subject liability insurance required \? organization cs dept , university texas austin lines 42 distribution usa nntp posting host cash cs utexas edu article 1993apr15 research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com \( chris behanna \) writes article tcora b329 gator 3 pica army mil tcora pica army mil \( tom coradeschi \) writes article 1993apr14 walter bellcore com , bzzzt ! driver 's fault , insurance co pays , less deductible , total cost guy gal 's company \( 's fancy word , escapes right \) , pays deductible go guy gal 's company right takes longer get cash \( opposed state farm , cut check today , spot , damage wife 's cage \) word seems , 're willing wait money scumbag 's insurance , save pay deductible however , scumbag 's insurance scum insurance , may pay deductible get insurance co 's pack rabid , large lawyers recover damages scum insurance 's lawyers sad , true call job security lawyers later , chris behanna dod 114 1983 h fxwg wide glide jubilee 's red lady know , sounds suspiciously like fault n't even advertised getting lawyers loop sigh another naive illusion toilet tommy mcguire mcguire cs utexas edu mcguire austin ibm com append appropriate disclaimer outgoing public information , identifying personal independent ibm
henson cc wwu edu \( matthew \) subject riceburner respect article henson 1993apr15 organization western washington university 250 ninja xl 250 got ridden winter long always wave lines 13 amazed number harley riders waving even lowly baby ninja let 's keep good attitudes brock said months car driver ready war \( would rather rode busses \) bikers 's freedom wanna know 's obsession keep world mirror try run sun wheels heart marty 87 250 ninja 73 xl 250
asphaug lpl arizona edu \( erik asphaug x2773 \) subject camping help backpack organization lunar planetary laboratory , tucson az lines 24 article 1993apr14 rtsg mot com svoboda rtsg mot com \( david svoboda \) writes article 1993apr13 bnr ca dave dal farra gpz750 bnr ca writes makes bbq starters la well , heck , 're going make , buy candle wax pound much candles hell , save candle bring light , dribble wax wood light although like belly button lint case idea best , 're feeling particularly evening one soggy summer open fuel line , drain onto piece rough rotten wood , stick middle soon inferno carefully strike match kurt vonnegut titled one latter chapters cat 's cradle , ah ! works like charm every time \) b h e b k e dod 88888 asphaug hindmost lpl arizona edu '90 kawi zephyr \( erik asphaug \) '86 bmw r80gs u l h e r e r
asphaug lpl arizona edu \( erik asphaug x2773 \) subject act front traffic jerks organization lunar planetary laboratory , tucson az lines 33 article nielsmm imv aau dk nielsmm imv aau dk \( niels mikkel michelsen \) writes day , raining cats dogs , therefor going speed limit , nothing , bike guy bmw driving 1 2 meters behind 7 800 meters next red light calmly put bike leg , walked back car , rolled window , told total idiot \( reason \) right thing \? truly niels mikkel ! make proud good thing n't get shot though n't try boy texas jeep driver south cut \( car \) flipped something really idiotic senseless 280 lbs stretches jeep walks back \( blocking traffic dallas houston since freeway squeezed single lane \) says , stick finger 'll rip hand shove sorry ass throat stared straight ahead , hundred cars eventually got back jeep , face beet red anger , rest way back houston , waving , , flipping , yelling i'm glad decided shoot b h e b k e dod 88888 asphaug hindmost lpl arizona edu '90 kawi 550 zephyr \( erik asphaug \) '86 bmw r100gs u l h e r e r
cjackson adobe com \( curtis jackson \) subject countersteering faq please post organization adobe systems incorporated , mountain view lines 21 article d0i sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes waterski bike , turn handlebars left lean right , like motorcycle , supports move contact patch beneath centre mass theory lean contradicts need precession countersteering induced lean waterski bike contradicts nothing motorcycle , morning saw tv ad waterski bike \( sea doo , care \) watched lengthy ad carefully , every case every speed riders turned handlebars left go left , right go right words , countersteering perhaps waterski bikes one curtis jackson cjackson mv us adobe com '91 hawk gt '81 maxim 650 dod 0721 kotb '91 black lab mix studley doright '92 collie golden george justification taking away individuals' freedom guise public safety thomas jefferson
os isc br com \( h marc lewis \) subject european c insurance organization isc bunker , olivetti company lines 16 nntp posting host os isc br com anyone europe got advice us citizen whose going living working italy year wants buy motorcycle \? italian friend arrived washington state work two years , 's finding difficult obtain car insurance thought 'd ask us license , motorcycle endorsement \( unlimited displacement \) , 30 years also washington state motorcycle safety instructor , info might help post summary , even 's personal experience buying bike getting insured get italy h marc lewis two kinds people world olivetti north america divide everything world mail spk olivetti com two kinds things n't
wdl loral com \( chuck \) subject motorcycle detailing tip 18 organization loral western development labs lines 26 mbeaving bnr ca \( michael beavington \) writes n't hate speedo tach bike start cloud nasty sunshine \? detailing tip week use rubbing compound rag , apply rubbing compound work , previously transparent , material minutes working plastic face , dial , plastic face clear work glass btw responsible damages incurred using method models use treatment safely beav mike beavington ottawa , ont , canada dod 9733 seca 400 seca 400 rz350 v65sabre \( 1994 gts1000 ca n't afford '93 \) mbeaving bnr ca mcguire 's makes plastic scratch removing compound plastic compound really work great well
manish uclink berkeley edu \( manish \) subject shipping bike organization university california , berkeley lines 10 distribution world nntp posting host uclink berkeley edu someone recommend ship motorcycle san francisco seattle \? much might cost \? remember thread shipping someone saved instructions bike prep , please post 'em , email thanks , manish
sandiego ncr com \( mike \) subject tire wanted keywords tires recomend organization ncr e san diego distribution usa lines 20 article 1993apr14 cbnewsm cb att com , cbnewsm cb att com \( antonio j salerno jr \) writes 've got '81 chen \( sp \? \) tires got tires ! reason need new tires beacuse hate \( n't feel safe \) 'd appreciate recomendations get \( new tires ! \) thanks , tony 'll throw vote metzler economy tire , good mid size older bikes rated 130mph wearing well handles 12 mile ride \( \) work well sr500 costs bit irc 's etc , still less sport newer bikes cost chaparral 60 front , 70 rear jon \( mike \) mike sandiego ncr com '78 yamaha sr500 '72 honda '70 husky 400 cross
ranck joesbar cc vt edu \( wm l ranck \) subject bdi experience organization virginia tech , blacksburg , virginia lines 21 nntp posting host joesbar cc vt edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 kent polk \( kent nde swri edu \) wrote also watch mirrors time turning another close one last night preparing right turn two lane road right turn signals , starting turn , lady behind hits throttle starts pass right happened twice happen often enough always look ride work morning come stop light 3 lanes direction one left turns , one straight , one right turns clearly marked plus clearly marked bicycle lane ride right turn lane signal stop stop line looking left see make right turn red start move discovered idiot pulled bike lane trying pass right always head check bike lanes always bicycles bill ranck \( 703 \) 231 9503 bill ranck vt edu computing center , virginia polytchnic inst state univ , blacksburg , va
ranck joesbar cc vt edu \( wm l ranck \) subject bmw moa members read ! organization virginia tech , blacksburg , virginia lines 10 nntp posting host joesbar cc vt edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 new bmw owner thinking signing moa , right beginning look suspiciously like throwing money rathole guys sort let know bill ranck \( 703 \) 231 9503 bill ranck vt edu computing center , virginia polytchnic inst state univ , blacksburg , va
ak296 yfn ysu edu \( john r daker \) subject shipping bike organization st elizabeth hospital , youngstown , oh lines 14 reply ak296 yfn ysu edu \( john r daker \) nntp posting host yfn ysu edu previous article , manish uclink berkeley edu \( manish \) says someone recommend ship motorcycle san francisco seattle \? much might cost \? hmmmmmm put butt seat follow road signs \? dod 650 darkman significant problems face cannot solved level thinking created albert einstein eternal champion
pooder rchland vnet ibm com \( \) subject coolant reply pooder msus1 msus edu disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host garnet rchland ibm com organization ibm rochester lines 34 article 1993apr15 research nj nec com , behanna syl nj nec com \( chris behanna \) writes motorcycles liquid cooled persuasion , brand coolant use \? looking aluminum safe coolant , preferably phosphate free , preferably cheaper 13 gallon \( believe kaw dealer wants 4 95 quart official blessed holy kawasaki coolant ! ! ! way i'm paying \) buy less gallon bmw even expensive stuff kawasaki \( must grapes grown certain parts fatherland \) , bmw dave said n't worry change yearly keep topped 's keeping gretchen happy since '87 , guess 's ok kept rabbit 's aluminum radiator 12 years 130 , 000 miles , , guess 's aluminum safe former owner late rochester bmw motorcycles around good guy pooder rochester , mn dod 591 care people think \? richard feynman share garage space gretchen '86 k75 harvey '72 note different reply address want send e mail
cbnewsg cb att com \( james j dutton \) subject bikes big dogs organization distribution na lines 20 article 1993apr14 1 cua edu 84wendel cua edu writes anyone ever heard rider giving big dog great dane ride back bike dog would love could ever make work thanks 84wendel cua edu large counts yes someone heard \( seen \) irresponsible childish stunt dog needed assistance board owner would lift front legs dog throw driver pilots shoulders said dog would get shit eating grin face away 'd go dogs ass firmly planted seat dog dog actively seek camping party 's hate think 's something personal 's 'r' us doh ai n't 's 'r' us zx 10 ama dod ai n't
ramarren apple com \( godfrey digiorgi \) subject uh , der , whassa deltabox \? organization apple computer lines 15 someone tell deltabox frame , relation , , frame hawk gt \? way , next time guy comes parking lot sez hey , dude , nice bike , deltabox frame \? say something besides duh , er , huh \? deltabox hawk frame conceptually similar tm name hawk frame design investment steering head swing arm tied together aluminum beams solution bit complex godfrey digiorgi ramarren apple com dod ama rule 1 never sell ducati street finds rule 2 always obey rule 1 uses things wg ducati toyota nikon sony apple telebit
bowmanj csn org \( jerry bowman \) subject liability insurance required \? nntp posting host fred colorado edu organization university colorado boulder , ocs lines 24 article vtserf cc vt edu ranck joesbar cc vt edu \( wm l ranck \) writes dan j declerck \( declrckd rtsg mot com \) wrote states fault auto insurance , applies basically insure vehicle , max sue 400 \( mi , anyway \) point made fault , fact removes lawyers system , lets people get money faster removal lawyers , reduces court system , thus , reduces government burdens , requiring many judges work \? \? n't know , ask people michigan , ask people new jersey fault hoax going years last heard every state ever got fault insurance saw increase rates know 's happened nj lived changed one reason never go back state bill ranck \( 703 \) 231 9503 bill ranck vt edu computing center , virginia polytchnic inst state univ , blacksburg , va colorado agent tells fault applies medical coverage
hesh cup hp com \( chris steinbroner \) subject bmw moa members read ! reply chris steinbroner hesh cup hp com nntp posting host hesh cup hp com organization hp ux kernel lab , cupertino , ca x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 1 lines 18 wm l ranck \( ranck joesbar cc vt edu \) wrote new bmw owner thinking signing moa , right beginning look suspiciously like throwing money rathole concur politics bickering going ruined bmwmoa politics fighting , i'm i'm going let current membership lapse 's renewal hesh p 's level far publication opinion
ranck joesbar cc vt edu \( wm l ranck \) subject liability insurance required \? organization virginia tech , blacksburg , virginia lines 14 distribution usa nntp posting host joesbar cc vt edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 tommy marcus mcguire \( mcguire cs utexas edu \) wrote know , sounds suspiciously like fault n't even advertised getting lawyers loop sigh another naive illusion toilet since legislators lawyers difficult get law passed would cut business fault insurance laws always backfire bill ranck \( 703 \) 231 9503 bill ranck vt edu computing center , virginia polytchnic inst state univ , blacksburg , va
bradw newbridge com \( brad warkentin \) subject v max handling request nntp posting host thor organization newbridge networks corporation lines 21 article news ysu edu ak296 yfn ysu edu \( john r daker \) writes previous article , ba7116326 ntuvax ntu ac sg \( \) says hello ican anyone handson experience riding yamaha v max , pls kindly comment handling 're kidding , right \? flame bait extreme v max handling \? har har har har zero fast quickly lastest rumor 115 hp rear wheel , handles like dream straight line 80 100 , gets tad upset according review cycle world cornering , er well , ca n't everything seriously , handling probably good big standards early 80 's whats state art days reviews discussions owners lust bike bj bradw newbridge com sig plan clue dod 255
rmugele oracle com \( robert \) subject act front traffic jerks organization oracle corporation , belmont , ca lines 21 reply nielsmm imv aau dk 's message 15 apr 93 08 54 34 gmt nntp posting host us oracle com x disclaimer message written unauthenticated user oracle corporation opinions expressed user necessarily oracle article nielsmm imv aau dk nielsmm imv aau dk \( niels mikkel michelsen \) writes day , raining cats dogs , therefor going speed limit , nothing , bike guy bmw driving 1 2 meters behind 7 800 meters next red light calmly put bike leg , walked back car , rolled window , told total idiot \( reason \) right thing \? absolutely , unless u cager pull gun blow away bob \( jungle bob \) email rmugele oracle com senior computational linguist phone 214 401 oracle corp moto '81 '87 concours irving , texas dod 283 vegetarians eat vegetables , beware dr bob
behanna syl nj nec com \( chris behanna \) subject got bike ! \( wanted advice cb900c purchase \) keywords cb900c , purchase , advice organization nec systems laboratory , inc lines 22 article 1993apr15 mit edu jburnside mit edu \( jamie w burnside \) writes \( sure alot harder load trailer \) road legal tomorrow ignoring concerns transmission taking chances worries trans reletively new reader , quite impressed usefull info available newsgroup would ask get dod number , 'll probably busy riding \) count \? cat dod faq mailx hahahha jburnside mit edu \( waiting press return \) later , chris behanna dod 114 1983 h fxwg wide glide jubilee 's red lady behanna syl nj nec com 1975 cb360t baby bike disclaimer would nec 1991 zx 11 needs name agree anyway \? raised pack wild corn dogs
behanna syl nj nec com \( chris behanna \) subject fault \? organization nec systems laboratory , inc lines 31 article 1416 galileo rtn ca boeing com galileo rtn ca boeing com \( michael bain \) writes insurance companies sure seem go fault coverage since majority accidents fault , n't imply would pay much higher rates fault system \? cars system , seems make sense surface take legal costs system looks like motorcyclists would get screwed yup unfortunately , pointed , cost insurance go fault drivers make like bandits longer bear responsibility paying insurance price crappy drivers good drivers pay nose spread cost crappy actions , 's fair plan caps rates crappy drivers inherently piece shit , rest us end paying plan uses speeding tickets basis raising rates also piece shit based upon lie faster drivers inherently less safe slower drivers , disproved two years ago later , chris behanna dod 114 1983 h fxwg wide glide jubilee 's red lady behanna syl nj nec com 1975 cb360t baby bike disclaimer would nec 1991 zx 11 needs name agree anyway \? raised pack wild corn dogs
behanna syl nj nec com \( chris behanna \) subject observation helmets organization nec systems laboratory , inc distribution usa lines 48 maven mavenry altcit eskimo com \( norman hamer \) writes grf dropped shoei rf 200 seat bike trying rock onto 's centerstand , chipped heck paint cheerfully spent 59 bottle 's model paint repainted scratches chips 20 minutes question day passenger helmets , n't know certain 's gonna ride \( like say meet church meeting , yeah , 's ticket \) guidelines \? pick another shoei size backup helmet \( xl \) , maybe get inexpensive one smaller size accomodate likely passenger \? one say \? stupid leave helmet seat fall go boom ! kind fall helmet designed protect fall helmet hit spot helmet landed drop , helmet may protect head well intended conservative rec recommend replace helmet want sure protect adequately , helmets go ground , table , chair , shelf , surface large enough support easily knocked jeezus new shoei would 340 replace think i'm going leave chance \? later , chris behanna dod 114 1983 h fxwg wide glide jubilee 's red lady behanna syl nj nec com 1975 cb360t baby bike disclaimer would nec 1991 zx 11 needs name agree anyway \? raised pack wild corn dogs
rbemben timewarp prime com \( rich bemben \) subject riceburner respect expires 15 may 93 05 00 00 gmt organization computervision corp , bedford , lines 19 article 1993apr9 cbnewsm cb att com shz mare att com \( keeper 'tude \) writes rider \( pilot \? \) practically every riceburner 've passed recently waved i'm wondering last could simply removed winter moth balls novelty soon dissipate \? perhaps gray beard sprouted since last rice season makes think i'm friendly old fart deserves wave maybe get rid h yorn buy rice rocket \? would certainly explain friendliness unless maybe piece toilet paper stuck bottom boot 8 \) rich rich bemben dod rbemben timewarp prime com 1977 750 triumph bonneville \( 617 \) 275 1800 x 4173 fear evil men name evil , heaven protect us evil men name good
ant palm21 cray com \( tony jones \) subject motorcycle detailing tip 18 lines 28 nntp posting host palm21 organization cray research inc , eagan , mn x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 chuck \( wdl loral com \) wrote mbeaving bnr ca \( michael beavington \) writes mcguire 's makes plastic scratch removing compound plastic compound really work great well useful tip someone letting know motorcycle detailing tip 19 \? far side instrument panel scuffed previous owner dumped bike true one turn signals scuffed areas black plastic recall reading somewhere , plastic compound could coat scuffed areas , rub , ending nice smooth shiny finish \? anyone ideas thanks tony tony jones \( ant cray com , ! uunet ! cray ! ant \) cmcs group , software division cray research inc , lone oak drive , eagan , mn
declrckd rtsg mot com \( dan j declerck \) subject edu nntp posting host organization motorola inc , cellular infrastructure group lines 34 article 1993apr15 rtsg mot com svoboda rtsg mot com \( david svoboda \) writes article 1993apr14 rtsg mot com declrckd rtsg mot com \( dan j declerck \) writes difference opinion , difference motorcycling sport bike riders cruiser bike riders difference minds certain closed minded individuals best motorcycling times riders cruiser bikes \( hi , eddie ! \) , yet ride anything continuously , forum , street , find quite difference opinions motorcycling different individuals cruiser bike riders different view motorcycling sport bike riders \( like dislike motorcycling \) closed minded recognize , effect , close minded lot , reminded rec motorcycles flame age thereof dislike , occasionally leather clad poser pal , read \? scan information , lot noise pointless flame age \( 's used trn , instead rn \) problem , i'm really sorry dan declerck email declrckd rtsg mot com motorola cellular apd friends n't let friends wear neon phone \( 708 \) 632
svoboda rtsg mot com \( david svoboda \) subject edu nntp posting host corolla18 organization motorola inc , cellular infrastructure group lines 29 article 1993apr15 rtsg mot com declrckd rtsg mot com \( dan j declerck \) writes article 1993apr15 rtsg mot com svoboda rtsg mot com \( david svoboda \) writes article 1993apr14 rtsg mot com declrckd rtsg mot com \( dan j declerck \) writes difference opinion , difference motorcycling sport bike riders cruiser bike riders difference minds certain closed minded individuals best motorcycling times riders cruiser bikes \( hi , eddie ! \) , yet ride anything continuously , forum , street , find quite difference opinions motorcycling different individuals yes , yes , yes motorcycling slightly different every one us nature people , one sport cruiser bike riders different view motorcycling sport bike riders \( like dislike motorcycling \) closed minded view exactly every single rider cruiser bikes holds , , course , sport bike rider could possibly hold \? please quantify generalization us careful , , 're trying whole bunch people dave svoboda \( svoboda void rtsg mot com \) i'm getting tired 90 concours 1000 \( mmmmmmmmmm ! \) beating , dave 84 rz 350 \( ring ding \) \( woops ! \) never learn ama 583905 dod 0330 cog 939 \( chicago \) beth bruiser dixon
pstone well sf ca us \( philip k stone \) subject countersteering faq please post nntp posting host well sf ca us organization whole earth 'lectronic link lines 24 article 1993apr14 rd hydro ca jlevine rd hydro ca \( jody levine \) writes waterski bike , turn handlebars left lean right , like motorcycle , n't think case , least friend 's , bars turn left go left anyway , 're changing jets , relationship rear mounted jets completely arbitrary \( simple linkage could make work either way \) supports move contact patch beneath centre mass theory lean contradicts need precession countersteering induced lean seems even irrelevant discussion snow skis amusing digression hey ed , explain fact pull horse 's reins left go left \? \) confusing two threads \? phil stone new address pstone well sf ca us '83 motorcycles ok
jfriedl ri cmu edu \( jeffrey \) subject ggrrrrrr ! ! cages double parking motorc nntp posting host hiroshima rest ri cmu edu reply jfriedl cs cmu edu organization corporation carnegie mellon lines 28 egreen east sun com \( ed green pixel cruncher \) writes article 34211 castle ed ac uk , wbg festival ed ac uk \( w geake \) writes ultra sticky labels printed favourite curse good even local hospitals use instead wheel clamps , putting one \( a5 size \) window cage apartment complex used live tried , put thing driver 's window , could n't miss friend damned near wrecked way home one night , vision blocked sticker suggested manager enormous liability assuming pulling stunt \( logic anything , \) see liability putting stickers car moving , something , 's bdi chooses start drive car known unsafe condition would \( seem \) liable furthermore , would last chance avoid unsafe situation , additional factor blame anyway , stickers window less effective one problem taking blade window remove stubborn sticker , 's different story nice paint job door jeff jeffrey e f corporation , \( kyoto \) , japan jfriedl co jp , jfriedl cs cmu edu dod 4 visiting researcher mach project , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh
wcd82671 uxa cso uiuc edu \( daniel warren c \) subject splitfire plugs kinda offical summary supposed higher power output distribution rec motorcycles keywords using splitfire plugs performance organization university illinois urbana lines 54 yo , ! ! ! earlier , reading net using splitfire plugs one guy thinking almost everybody shot hell well , saw one think someone said show team used split fires well , 's additional insight theories splitfire plugs boost us cages splitfires originally made burn fuel efficiently increased power 4x4 cages well , guys , splitfires increased performance increasing torque n't focusing horsepower numbers related us high performance pilots \? well , depends pilot high performance 2 4 cylinder machine \? case 4 cylinders , splitfires would increase overall torque , 4 's make top end horsepower torque packed low 4 's , splitfires would significantly increase power twins \? many 4 guys laugh us twins , many times carry less weight sometimes make hp loss \( see doug vs scott russell , daytona 1992 \) however , twins make torque translate \? increased torque theoretically help twins make power splitfire claims extra mods anything made , stick 'em n't know \( i'm trying catch somebody \) , splitfires help twins 4 's far racing teams ducati team fast used splitfires 1989 season \( jamie james running em \) , n't know stopped since also , somebody check see 88 peace warren wcd82671 uxa cso uiuc edu suzuki , travel local fix er er shop , bike looked dumped zx 7 asked guy happened dumped clutch fast pretty fast insurance nope smiled know bikes \? much
burnham markb wc novell com subject act front traffic jerks x xxdate thu , 15 apr 93 16 39 59 gmt nntp posting host 130 57 72 65 organization novell inc x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d12 lines 16 article rmugele oracle com robert , rmugele oracle com writes absolutely , unless u cager pull gun blow away well , would guess probability bmw driver gun would lower vehicles least , would likely say something someone , pickup truck , example mark mark burnham \( markb wc novell com \) ama dod alfa romeo 6 '90 ninja 750
bethd netcom com \( beth dixon \) subject ed must daemon child ! ! organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) distribution usa lines 29 article 1993apr14 1499 research nj nec com behanna syl syl nj nec com \( chris behanna \) writes article netcom com bethd netcom com \( beth dixon \) writes discovered sr250 touring bike nifty little cache things like coins lipstick new duc 750ss n't , 'll go back carrying lipstick jacket pocket life hard \) denizen thinks natural look best look \? thought kissing waxy shit smeared woman 's lips definite turn clear lipstick etc fit natural look waxy shit category \? wear something lips keep drying kissing dry , cracked , lips n't fun either 'll ever kissing beth noemi \) tom anything say wo n't ! noemi speaks beth beth one true beth dixon bethd netcom com 1981 yamaha sr250 excitable girl dod 0384 1979 yamaha sr500 spike garage rat fssnoc 1843 1992 ducati 750ss ama 631903 1963 ducati 250 monza restoration project 1kqspt 1 8 keep handle anything side deranged zz top
netcom com \( \) subject boom ! dog attack ! organization netcom online communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 32 article 97 uupcb compdyn questor org ryan cousineau compdyn questor org \( ryan cousineau \) writes previous posting dog attacks must generated bad karma something 've weathered attempted dog attacks using approved method slow screw dog 's triangulation target , take laugh dog , far behind time , n't work n't time riding hill leading house , encountered liver white springer spaniel \( relation springer softail , springer spagthorpe , close relation spagthorpe viking \) actually , dog encountered intent harm stuff deleted ryan cousinetc 1982 yamaha vision xz550 black pig inverness live ride kotrb 1958 ajs 500 c king rat work dod 0863 'd squid could afford bike flame ryan cousineau compdyn questor org vancouver , bc , canada live sure hope got cost replacement panel owner owner seem reluctant , stop local \( preferably foot leg swollen \) file dog report would trick g glenn armory com cross oncoming lanes r65 hell cafe near death highways ! yeah got dod , \? sj mercury news
bethd netcom com \( beth dixon \) subject women 's jackets \? \( ed must daemon child ! ! \) organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) distribution usa lines 44 article 1993apr14 mnemosyne cs du edu nyx cs du edu \( john hensley \) writes beth dixon \( bethd netcom com \) wrote new duc 750ss n't , 'll go back carrying lipstick jacket pocket life hard \) wife looking jacket , men 's styles 's tried n't fit well fit shoulders arms , 're tight across chest , something like anyone suggestions \? i'm assuming v pilot , addition handy storage facilities , pretty decent fit company makes reasonable line women 's motorcycling stuff \? importantly , anyone boulder denver know shop bothers carrying \? lucky found jacket liked actually fits hg makes v pilot jackets , mine similar style made leather san jose bought one last two ever made finding decent womens motorcycling gear easy lot stuff 's everywhere , made fashion leather , made fit men , etc n't know shop area women rider friendly places san francisco san jose area , n't recommend buying clothing mail order hard tell 'll fit bates custom makes leathers might want call \( 're l \) get cost estimate type jacket wife interested large manufacturers like bmw h g sell women 's lines clothing decent quality , fit ago , noemi lisa talking starting business sort thing n't know finally decided beth beth one true beth dixon bethd netcom com 1981 yamaha sr250 excitable girl dod 0384 1979 yamaha sr500 spike garage rat fssnoc 1843 1992 ducati 750ss ama 631903 1963 ducati 250 monza restoration project 1kqspt 1 8 keep handle anything side deranged zz top
moseley u washington edu \( steve l moseley \) subject act front traffic jerks organization microbial pathogenesis motorcycle maintenance lines 26 nntp posting host biostat washington edu article nielsmm imv aau dk nielsmm imv aau dk \( niels mikkel michelsen \) writes nielsmm imv aau dk \( niels mikkel michelsen \) subject act front traffic jerks date thu , 15 apr 1993 08 54 34 gmt day , raining cats dogs , therefor going speed limit , nothing , bike guy bmw driving 1 2 meters behind 7 800 meters next red light calmly put bike leg , walked back car , rolled window , told total idiot \( reason \) right thing \? works avoid , try remain calm cool collected , try something like , almost killed , i'm moving apologize something less benign like n't shot single time , n't texas , plenty witnesses around steve steve l moseley moseley u washington edu microbiology sc 42 phone \( 206 \) 543 university washington fax \( 206 \) 543 seattle , wa 98195
na4 vax5 cit cornell edu subject kreme distribution rec organization cornell university lines 8 hi folks ! recently saw one post kreme bad idea , one man 's opinion one else experience stuff \?
na4 vax5 cit cornell edu subject aerostitch 1 2 piece \? distribution rec organization cornell university lines 11 request opinions better one piece aerostitch two piece aerostitch \? 're looking well , 2 pc versatile , 1 pc better protection , thanks advance ,
moseley u washington edu \( steve l moseley \) subject observation helmets organization microbial pathogenesis motorcycle maintenance lines 20 distribution world nntp posting host biostat washington edu article d0i sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com \( ed green pixel cruncher \) writes primary concern protecting passenger event crash , fitted helmet size primary concern complying stupid helmet laws , carry real big spare \( put big small head big helmet , small one \) carry want comply intelligent helmet laws \? \( comment way implies support helmet law , support inferred promise promise \) steve steve l moseley moseley u washington edu microbiology sc 42 phone \( 206 \) 543 university washington fax \( 206 \) 543 seattle , wa 98195
randy megatek com \( randy davis \) subject v max handling request reply randy megatek com organization megatek corporation , san diego , california lines 16 article 1993apr15 222224 1 ntuvax ntu ac sg ba7116326 ntuvax ntu ac sg writes hello ican anyone handson experience riding yamaha v max , pls kindly comment handling depends context want commented handles great compared bikes , good compared others would like compared \? \( yes , 've put miles one , although 've never owned one \) randy davis email randy megatek com zx 11 00072 pilot uunet ! ucsd ! megatek ! randy dod 0013 , one goes eleven nigel tufnel , spinal tap
randy megatek com \( randy davis \) subject observation helmets reply randy megatek com organization megatek corporation , san diego , california lines 38 article d0i sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes article 211353 mavenry altcit eskimo com , maven mavenry altcit eskimo com \( norman hamer \) writes question day passenger helmets , n't know certain 's gonna ride \( like say meet church meeting , yeah , 's ticket \) guidelines \? pick another shoei size backup helmet \( xl \) , maybe get inexpensive one smaller size accomodate likely passenger \? primary concern protecting passenger event crash , fitted helmet size primary concern complying stupid helmet laws , carry real big spare \( put big small head big helmet , small one \) well , accomplish goals , actually , definite physical type mind go \( cough \) church meetings tastes tend smaller , \( cough \) , likely smaller head , safely get medium small helmet works , traded spare large helmet best friend , , , tends look women 6'0 , ca n't usually fit medium size helmet previously course , n't picky size \( cough \) give helpful motorcycle rides , ed 's advice hopefully cover far legality concerned , spare tankbag makes acceptable padding passenger see viewport \( rather padding viewport \) cases extreme mismatch randy davis email randy megatek com zx 11 00072 pilot uunet ! ucsd ! megatek ! randy dod 0013 , one goes eleven nigel tufnel , spinal tap
bethd netcom com \( beth dixon \) subject ducati 400 opinions wanted organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 42 article srgenprp sr hp com frankb sad hp com \( frank ball \) writes godfrey digiorgi \( ramarren apple com \) wrote ducati 400 model essentially reduced displacement 750 , means weighs size 750 far less power produced specifically meet vehicle tax restriction ducati 750 model essentially reduced displacement 900 , means weighs size 900 far less power less brakes bzzzt 750ss 40 pounds lighter 900ss personally , recently , witnessed 750ss larger average rider aboard said took two fingers single front disk accomplish task much brake need \? , 's somewhat large overweight motor still handle magnificently , wo n't fast flaws mention limited steering lock annoyance noted testers mirrors n't perfect n't gone 4000 rpm yet \( still break \) n't problem 750ss slow limited steering lock problem n't prepared mirrors good , imho someone forgot tell designer behind , philosophy hewlett packard \( 707 \) 794 3844 fax , \( 707 \) 538 3693 home 1212 valley house drive it175 , xt350 , seca 750 , '62 f 100 , pl510 hmmmm n't see 400 , 750 900ss sig miss something \? beth beth one true beth dixon bethd netcom com 1981 yamaha sr250 excitable girl dod 0384 1979 yamaha sr500 spike garage rat fssnoc 1843 1992 ducati 750ss ama 631903 1963 ducati 250 monza restoration project 1kqspt 1 8 keep handle anything side deranged zz top
erika cts com \( erik astrup \) subject choking ninja problem organization x newsreader tin 1 1 pl4 lines 43 starr kuhub cc ukans edu writes need help '85 , put slip 's carbs match set k n filters replaced stock ahh , carbs match changes made bike \? stage three kit k n \? huge flat spot 5 thousand rpm gear n't rejetting fun \? especially frustrating highway , bike likes cruise 80mph happens 5 , 0000 rpm sixth gear 've tuned n't seem help thinking new carbs injection system gpz 1100 anyone suggestions fix besides restoring stock \? new carbs \? \? \? would fix \? still get right match seems extremely overly lean condition added free flowing exhaust , higher flowing filters chances 's lean ! may , 's big fun carb tuning 's tricky one choice \( unless want spend many hours fiddling carbs \) take guy dyno tune carbs current set otherwise 'll playing guessing game long time erik astrup afm 422 dod 683 1993 cbr 900rr 1990 cbr 600 1990 concours 1989 ninja 250 one goes eleven nigel tufnel , lead guitar , spinal tap
erika cts com \( erik astrup \) subject long lasting tires small bike organization x newsreader tin 1 1 pl4 lines 22 virginia edu \( heyman \) writes rear tires small 110 90 fronts though get 120 90 instead anything size \? recomendations \? call tire companies tell make recomendations 's best bet check biker magazine \( cycle world etc \) phone numbers 's possible tires available though erik astrup afm 422 dod 683 1993 cbr 900rr 1990 cbr 600 1990 concours 1989 ninja 250 one goes eleven nigel tufnel , lead guitar , spinal tap
declrckd rtsg mot com \( dan j declerck \) subject edu nntp posting host organization motorola inc , cellular infrastructure group lines 53 article 1993apr15 rtsg mot com svoboda rtsg mot com \( david svoboda \) writes article 1993apr15 rtsg mot com declrckd rtsg mot com \( dan j declerck \) writes article 1993apr15 rtsg mot com svoboda rtsg mot com \( david svoboda \) writes article 1993apr14 rtsg mot com declrckd rtsg mot com \( dan j declerck \) writes difference opinion , difference motorcycling sport bike riders cruiser bike riders difference minds certain closed minded individuals best motorcycling times riders cruiser bikes \( hi , eddie ! \) , yet ride anything continuously , forum , street , find quite difference opinions motorcycling different individuals yes , yes , yes motorcycling slightly different every one us nature people , one sport cruiser bike riders different view motorcycling sport bike riders \( like dislike motorcycling \) closed minded view exactly every single rider cruiser bikes holds , , course , sport bike rider could possibly hold \? please quantify generalization us careful , , 're trying whole bunch people plastic useless torque , upright riding position better slightly radically forward riding position combined high rpm low torque motor cruiser motorcyclist , chrome importance sport bike motorcyclists chrome little impact buying choice unless motivated solely price , criteria rider uses select vehicle choice ignore , well criteria , would insensitive words , one motorcycle requirements sport bike rider cruiser rider may \( sometimes 's hard motorcycle person 's requirements \) 're fishing flames , dave difference opinion analogous difference sports car owners , luxury car owners moot conversation dan declerck email declrckd rtsg mot com motorola cellular apd friends n't let friends wear neon phone \( 708 \) 632
coburnn spot colorado edu \( nicholas coburn \) subject shipping bike nntp posting host spot colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 31 article agate berkeley edu manish uclink berkeley edu \( manish \) writes someone recommend ship motorcycle san francisco seattle \? much might cost \? remember thread shipping someone saved instructions bike prep , please post 'em , email thanks , manish step 1 \) join ama \( american motorcycling association \) call 1 800 ama join step 2 \) become member , ship bike , anywhere across plain hundred bucks used service continually pleased usually take days whole thing , prepare bike way \( draining gas \) mention 25 normal shipping costs \( time bike ship another company , pay around 1000 \) nick coburn dod 6425 ama coburnn spot colorado edu
karr cs cornell edu \( david karr \) subject bmw moa members read ! organization cornell univ cs dept , ithaca ny 14853 lines 19 article cup hp com chris steinbroner hesh cup hp com writes wm l ranck \( ranck joesbar cc vt edu \) wrote new bmw owner thinking signing moa , right beginning look suspiciously like throwing money rathole i'm going let current membership lapse 's renewal hesh case 's another 3 years , 'd appreciate hints keep organization business long \( preferably longer , course , worth part \) david karr \( karr cs cornell edu \)
jamesf apple com \( jim franklin \) subject tracing license plates bdi cagers \? organization apple computer , inc lines 19 article 1993apr8 adobe com , cjackson adobe com \( curtis jackson \) wrote good advice , course thanks , hesh time go back zen course imagine lily , gently floating still , darkened pool bdc volvo comes freeway lands top said pool ca n't win jim jim franklin jamesf apple com jim bob sons 1987 650 signature 1969 triumph 650 \( slalom champ \) low price quality workman dod 469 \( un \) ship call today free
ucs indiana edu \( \) subject need help getting saddle bags ! ! nntp posting host ucs indiana edu organization indiana university lines 15 hey i'm pretty new wonderful world motorcycles bought used 81 kaw kz650 csr friend wondering kind saddle bags could get \( since know nothing \) bags gas tank \? much would cost , much hold \? thanks advice ! ! ! may new riding , love already ! ! ! ! \) ucs indiana edu \( dod 55 , 555 \)
montasmm ntmtv com \( medi \) subject saddle bags helmets sale originator montasmm nntp posting host reply montasmm ntmtv com \( medi \) organization northern telecom inc , mountain view , ca distribution ba lines 28 i'm selling following items pair hard saddle bags easy installation snap release feature lock black brand two full face helmets take 275 comming bike i'm selling , maybe could use whole thing , bike accessories 1983 yamaha , vision 550 call medi work \( 415 \) 940 home \( 408 \) 744 thanks medi montasmm ntmtv com ames ! ntmtv ! montasmm
subject observation helmets inform co nz \( michael \) organization inform group ltd lines 23 article 211353 mavenry altcit eskimo com , maven mavenry altcit eskimo com \( norman hamer \) writes grf dropped shoei rf 200 seat bike trying rock onto 's centerstand , chipped heck paint ! ! ! ! helmet passed snell test cheerfully spent 59 bottle 's model paint repainted scratches chips 20 minutes oh well , least looks ok still , may save head well dropped mike mike yamaha \( \) inform group ltd dod level 8 db tower 111 terrace email homer inform co nz wellington phone 64 4 new zealand fax 64 4
gunning cco caltech edu \( kevin j gunning \) subject stolen cbr900rr organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 12 distribution usa nntp posting host alumni caltech edu summary see stolen pasadena 4 30 6 30 pm 4 15 blue white honda cbr900rr california plate kg cbr serial number , engine number turn signals mirrors , lights taped track riders session springs tomorrow guess 'll miss \( \( \( help find baby ! ! !
mellon ncd com \( ted lemon \) subject shipping bike organization network computing devices , inc lines 14 nntp posting host pepper ncd com reply manish uclink berkeley edu 's message 15 apr 93 20 51 02 gmt someone recommend ship motorcycle san francisco seattle \? much might cost \? 'd recommend hop back cruise 's really nice ride , choose route care n't cost 30 gas , maybe night 's motel bill mellon mellon ncd com uunet ! ! mellon member league programming freedom find software patents may cost right program , contact lpf uunet uu net
cbrooks ms uky edu \( clayton brooks \) subject v max handling request organization university kentucky , dept math sciences lines 13 bradw newbridge com \( brad warkentin \) writes seriously , handling probably good big standards early 80 's whats state art days think go little back opinion comes riding cb750 's 's 's v max find enjoyment riding v max fast twisty road clayton brooks , , ` heart cbrooks ms uky edu 722 pot u , ' blue cbrooks ukma bitnet lex ky , grass rutgers , uunet ! ukma ! cbrooks 606 257 \( , '' bourbon country ama maa ams dod
mark crispin mrc tomobiki cho cac washington edu subject bmw moa members read ! organization university washington lines 2 nntp posting host tomobiki cho cac washington edu reply vtserf cc vt edu mime version 1 0 content type text plain charset us ascii resign bmw moa get remainder 5 year membership refunded \?
mmanning icomsim com \( michael manning \) subject riceburner respect organization icom simulations lines 27 article cellar org craig cellar org \( saint craig \) writes shz mare att com \( keeper 'tude \) writes anyone true rider real riding attitude offer wave , weather harley honda bike , serious case bike better 're low 'll find case harley riders , however still give wave , ride secure knowlege i'm better , kinda like people wave return wave i'm harley harley riders seldom wave back i'm duck squids n't wave , return waves ever , even , tell michael manning mmanning icomsim com \( nextmail accepted \) `92 `92 ducati 900ss
jamesf apple com \( jim franklin \) subject tracing license plates bdi cagers \? organization apple computer , inc lines 30 article i88 isc com , jeq lachman com \( jonathan e quist \) wrote could file complaint dangerous operation motor vehicle , sign willing show court comes \? really \? morning went lane change freeway looked mirror , car , far enough behind looked 3 5 seconds later , car still position , e accelerating triple check head turn decide plenty room , , accelerating travel 1 4 mile staying 200 feet teh bumper car ahead , casual mirror check guy right tail , mean could n't stick hair tire fender keep looking mirror , slowly let teh throttle stays lost 15mph comes around cuts big time follow 10 miles finally get bored turn back work file complaint \? actually chance something done \? \? \? \? jim jim franklin jamesf apple com jim bob sons 1987 650 signature 1969 triumph 650 \( slalom champ \) low price quality workman dod 469 \( un \) ship call today free
jrwaters eos ncsu edu \( jack rogers waters \) subject got bike ! \( wanted advice cb900c purchase \) keywords cb900c , purchase , advice organization north carolina state university , project eos lines 33 article 1993apr15 research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com \( chris behanna \) writes article 1993apr15 mit edu jburnside mit edu \( jamie w burnside \) writes \( sure alot harder load trailer \) road legal tomorrow ignoring concerns transmission taking chances worries trans reletively new reader , quite impressed usefull info available newsgroup would ask get dod number , 'll probably busy riding \) count \? yes thought cat dod faq mailx hahahha jburnside mit edu \( waiting press return \) later , chris behanna dod 114 1983 h fxwg wide glide jubilee 's red lady behanna syl nj nec com 1975 cb360t baby bike disclaimer would nec 1991 zx 11 needs name agree anyway \? raised pack wild corn dogs jack waters ii dod 1919 n't fear thief night one comes afternoon , i'm still asleep , worry
howard netcom com \( howard \) subject shipping bike organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 23 article mellon pepper ncd com mellon ncd com \( ted lemon \) writes someone recommend ship motorcycle san francisco seattle \? much might cost \? 'd recommend hop back cruise 's really nice ride , choose route care n't cost 30 gas , maybe night 's motel bill yes ! coast , portland , 5 really nice way , i'm sure 's even better ways watch weather , though got good possible oregon coast range howard howard netcom com help !
jet netcom netcom com \( j eric townsend \) subject stolen reply dam9543 ritvax isc rit edu 's message wed , 14 apr 1993 21 53 17 gmt organization netcom online communications service lines 17 dam9543 dam9543 dam9543 ritvax isc rit edu writes dam9543 get back work today , look bike dam9543 side nearly shit , new dry rider cover dam9543 gone ! barely two weeks old , already gone , god somebody stole trashed old honda red white blue cover residential palo alto couple weeks ago cover holes burnt around exhaust , etc etc figured kids , maybe jet netcom com j eric townsend '92 , dod \( hafta kill \) fun account work email goes jet nas nasa gov got put wanna play saxophone skate unix die ,
cbrooks ms uky edu \( clayton brooks \) subject changing sprocket ratios \( 79 honda cb750 \) organization university kentucky , dept math sciences lines 10 honda gurus know replace front sprocket 1979 honda slightly larger one \? \( see preferable reducing size rear one \) wanting ride relaxed rpm clayton brooks , , ` heart cbrooks ms uky edu 722 pot u , ' blue cbrooks ukma bitnet lex ky , grass rutgers , uunet ! ukma ! cbrooks 606 257 \( , '' bourbon country ama maa ams dod
static iat holonet net \( joe ehrlich \) subject bmw moa members read ! organization holonet national internet access system 510 704 1058 modem lines 19 oh boy , little k bike versus 2 \? grow ! goes ! hope dump campaign works however think crook , suprised taken long anything done \( though obviously , ai n't yet \) hand , i'm sure want bed wackos running throwing 20 oo rathole might effective sending club would n't get anything , n't get anything magazine say \? ever since moa installed lacked sort panache may ah , would know \? 6 k bike static moa
jlevine rd hydro ca \( jody levine \) subject countersteering faq please post organization ontario hydro research division lines 12 article 1993apr15 adobe com cjackson adobe com \( curtis jackson \) writes perhaps waterski bikes one sea doo boat turns changing angle duct behind waterski bike looks like motorcycle ski wheel handlebars connected familiar looking steering head front ski handles like motorcycle 've bike like jody levine dod 275 kv got pf jody p levine hydro ca ride toronto , ontario , canada
behanna syl nj nec com \( chris behanna \) subject ed must daemon child ! ! organization nec systems laboratory , inc distribution usa lines 33 article l9 netcom com bethd netcom com \( beth dixon \) writes article 1993apr14 1499 research nj nec com behanna syl syl nj nec com \( chris behanna \) writes article netcom com bethd netcom com \( beth dixon \) writes discovered sr250 touring bike nifty little cache things like coins lipstick new duc 750ss n't , 'll go back carrying lipstick jacket pocket life hard \) denizen thinks natural look best look \? thought kissing waxy shit smeared woman 's lips definite turn clear lipstick etc fit natural look waxy shit category \? wear something lips keep drying kissing dry , cracked , lips n't fun either agreed , , yes , fits waxy shit category , although 've noticed stealing annette 's \( 's applied \) kept lips cracking past winter like previous winters sigh price must pay 'll ever kissing beth noemi \) tom anything say wo n't ! noemi speaks darling annette \( okay , guess ready barf bags \) later , chris behanna dod 114 1983 h fxwg wide glide jubilee 's red lady behanna syl nj nec com 1975 cb360t baby bike disclaimer would nec 1991 zx 11 needs name agree anyway \? raised pack wild corn dogs
garym cycle mentorg com \( gary myron \) subject shipping bike nntp posting host cycle mentorg com organization mentor graphics keywords lines 21 someone recommend ship motorcycle san francisco seattle \? much might cost \? shipped k75s portland oregon daytona years bike week \( rode back ! \) company used federal co 's reach 1 800 747 4100 ex 214 either ama member , maybe discount ama , sure \( call 1 800 ama join become ama member \) shipping cost based number miles cost 500 portland orlando 80 insurance ride shipping dock gas think also pick bike business bike arrived time orlando adjust mirrors add gas bike perfect shape ! gary
subject bikes vs horses \( insect emd ham almanac bc ca distribution world organization robert smits lines 21 cooper mprgate mpr ca \( greg cooper \) writes article d0i sixgun east sun com , egreen east sun com \( ed green article sda usenet ins cwru edu , ai598 cleveland freenet edu \( mike exceptional ones like average ones like barely fart fuck much , mike gentlemen please greg 's obviously confused n't many \( \) gentlemen newsgroup well , maybe one two robert smits ladysmith bc lucas built weapons , wars emd ham almanac bc ca would never start , either
c70a000 c70a unb ca subject recommendation front tire lines 15 organization university new brunswick article rodan uu net smm rodan uu net \( steve mansfield \) writes yes , front tire dead minimal tread left , 's time new one recommendations good tire front \? i'm riding almost brand new back stick me33 front 've got laser front gpz , fantastic tire best front tire 've ever graeme dod fido 1 255 14 4 c70a unb ca university new brunswick , fredericton , nb , canada damn box jockeys ! full speed ahead ! live flame flame live '84 gpz 1100 , '76 , '76 , '91 trek 8000
infante acpub duke edu \( andrew infante \) subject long trips organization duke university durham , n c lines 27 nntp posting host north1 acpub duke edu article 1076 uupcb freddy ersys edmonton ab ca mark harrison freddy ersys edmonton ab ca \( mark harrison \) writes new \( e n't even bike yet \) going long trip edmonton vancouver tips bare essentials trip \? tools , clothing , emergency repairs \? er , without bike \( ed , maybe ought respond \) , gonna get \? yer going cage , 's got r \? also market used cycle tips look n't get burnt \? much appreciated mark maybe somebody oughta gang tool faq guy , hmmm \? andy infante listen everybody says , fact remains '71 bmw r60 5 've got get thing dod 2426 joan sutherland opinions , dammit , nothing anyone else ! ! !
viking iastate edu \( dan sorenson \) subject act front traffic jerks organization iowa state university , ames ia lines 13 nielsmm imv aau dk \( niels mikkel michelsen \) writes right thing \? denmark , eh \? taken short sword car half since assume n't short sword , certainly problems choice substitute action dan sorenson , dod 1066 z1dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu censors read , say n't blame usenet post exotic , distant machines meet exciting , unusual people flame
viking iastate edu \( dan sorenson \) subject boom ! dog attack ! organization iowa state university , ames ia lines 36 ryan cousineau compdyn questor org \( ryan cousineau \) writes riding hill leading house , encountered liver white springer spaniel \( relation springer softail , springer spagthorpe , close relation spagthorpe viking \) must missed article spagthorpe viking one little illuminated dragon 's head front fender , style later copied indian , round side covers \? accident deleted worries accident n't think could prevented except traveling much slower necessarily unreasonable suggestion residential area , riding around speed limit forget line reasoning animal decides take , 's nothing something genetics putting along mere , gravel road loose rocks \( , like bad concrete \) , swinging beef jumped fence , came ditch , rammed ! saw jump fence went gas , since 20 feet ahead good forty side damn cow literally chased nailed damage cow , bent case guard severely annoyed rider casualties shotgun 'd still eating steak nope , cow hit i'm actively evading , forget much dog run dan sorenson , dod 1066 z1dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu censors read , say n't blame usenet post exotic , distant machines meet exciting , unusual people flame
viking iastate edu \( dan sorenson \) subject flashing anyone \? keywords flashing organization iowa state university , ames ia lines 29 behanna syl nj nec com \( chris behanna \) writes arriving toll booth switch hazards warn motorists taking longer 2 1 2 seconds make transaction question , good bad thing \? sounds like good thing 'll second addition , find hazards often used horn speeds interstates , quite common mountains trucks , states require flashers rural areas , flashers let guy behind know tractor rather large implement behind way use whenever need communicate things deviate norm chris behanna dod 114 1983 h fxwg wide glide jubilee 's red lady behanna syl nj nec com 1975 cb360t baby bike disclaimer would nec 1991 zx 11 needs name zx 11 painted green \? since green triumph 650 friend owned sold , name free adoption name grab \? dan sorenson , dod 1066 z1dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu censors read , say n't blame usenet post exotic , distant machines meet exciting , unusual people flame
viking iastate edu \( dan sorenson \) subject v max handling request organization iowa state university , ames ia lines 13 1993apr15 222224 1 ntuvax ntu ac sg ba7116326 ntuvax ntu ac sg writes ican anyone handson experience riding yamaha v max , pls kindly comment handling v max goes strait line like shit goose corners , 'd rather ride honda 305 dream dan sorenson , dod 1066 z1dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu censors read , say n't blame usenet post exotic , distant machines meet exciting , unusual people flame
jeq lachman com \( jonathan e quist \) subject bikes vs horses \( insect impacts f nntp posting host birdie i88 isc com organization lachman technology , incorporated , naperville , il lines 21 article txd able mkt 3com com txd esd 3com com \( tom dietrich \) writes previous article , egreen east sun com \( ed green pixel cruncher \) says lots things , none quoted article usenet ins cwru edu , ai598 cleveland freenet edu \( mike sturdevant \) writes think average dirt biker jump 3 foot log \? 18 log suspended 18 ground \? matter , 4 log suspended 2 5' ground \? oh , ye little imagination n't jump 's lay bike slide ! jonathan e quist jeq lachman com lachman technology , incorporated dod 094 , kotpp , kotcf '71 cl450 k4 gleep naperville , il 's nothing quite like pitter patter little feet , followed words daddy ! yay !
robert xenon stanford edu \( robert kennedy \) subject battery storage charge store dry \? organization computer science department , stanford university lines 24 looks like i'm going put couple bikes storage months , starting several months , i'm already contemplating 're easy get going possible everything control , think , besides batteries know buy 50 00 battery tender one leave plugged whole time bikes storage , 'll fine i'm sure 's necessary 've never heard anyone discussing idea , maybe 's reason n't great maybe someone tell would mistake fully charge batteries , drain electrolyte separate containers \( one battery \) , seal container , close batteries , leave way \? would seem bikes come storage , could put electrolyte back batteries still fully charged 's wrong \? related , different note bay area denizens , n't someone bunch spare edta months back \? \? still left \? thanks help ! robert
jeq lachman com \( jonathan e quist \) subject liability insurance required \? nntp posting host birdie i88 isc com organization lachman technology , incorporated , naperville , il lines 34 article 1993apr14 newbridge com bradw newbridge com \( brad warkentin \) writes article 1993apr14 rtsg mot com svoboda rtsg mot com \( david svoboda \) writes \( sorry , lost attributions areas , drivers required show proof financial responsibility , usually means insurance required \? get pulled \? drivers , net aside , n't get pulled checked laws fact , case often somebody lot money n't requirement yearly plate stickers us \? \? \? \? ontario manitoba sure provinces \( think \) show proof renew plate \( ie get new sticker \) yes unfortunately , also concept owner car responsible actions \( authorized \) user car 's one biggest arguments photo radar systems also get pay outstanding tickets even cross province agreements \( least ontario quebec \) unpaid tickets province record date sticker \) bad trouble , recourse mis issued ticket clerical error computer follow around city chicago \( informal motto city works \) issues dozens parking tickets year people never set foot \( tire \) city jonathan e quist jeq lachman com lachman technology , incorporated dod 094 , kotpp , kotcf '71 cl450 k4 gleep naperville , il 's nothing quite like pitter patter little feet , followed words daddy ! yay !
bclarke galaxy gov bc ca subject fortune guzzler barred bars ! organization bc systems corporation lines 20 saw today 's newspaper fortune guzzler barred bars , england reuter motorcyclist said drunk away 290 , 000 insurance payment less 10 years banned wednesday every pub england wales david roberts , 29 , awarded cash compensation losing leg motorcycle accident spent virtually cider , court southwest england told judge malcolm banned roberts bars england wales 12 months put two years' started brawl pub bruce clarke b c environment e mail bclarke galaxy gov bc ca
robert xenon stanford edu \( robert kennedy \) subject solar battery good \? organization computer science department , stanford university lines 12 've seen solar battery boosters , seem come without guarantee hand , 've heard people use success , although yet communicate directly person tried one \? experience \? use \( occasional charging , long term leave weeks , etc \) \? robert kennedy robert kennedy \( 415 \) 723 \( office \) robert cs stanford edu \( 415 \) 322 \( home voice \) computer science dept , stanford university \( 415 \) 322 \( home tty \)
jeq lachman com \( jonathan e quist \) subject please gentlemen nntp posting host birdie i88 isc com organization lachman technology , incorporated , naperville , il lines 21 article cvbnetprime com tjohnson tazmanian prime com \( tod johnson \( 617 \) 275 1800 x2317 \) writes article 1076 uupcb freddy ersys edmonton ab ca grant freddy ersys edmonton ab ca \( grant \) writes cp certain knowledge , simply motorcycle cp get laid true ! oh thankfully true ! gentlemen please us rather appropriate favor excuse comments sexual fortunes net hardly tod , think 've 're banking owning motorcycle get laid , doubt sexual fortunes quite reverse jonathan e quist jeq lachman com lachman technology , incorporated dod 094 , kotpp , kotcf '71 cl450 k4 gleep naperville , il 's nothing quite like pitter patter little feet , followed words daddy ! yay !
jeq lachman com \( jonathan e quist \) subject happy easter ! nntp posting host birdie i88 isc com organization lachman technology , incorporated , naperville , il lines 13 article 1993apr15 hasler ascom ch kevinh hasler ascom ch writes ba trying sell rr bmw even tested bmw v16 ! ! think remain british time ba get hard anyway ! rolls royce owned non british firm \? ye gods , would end civilization know jonathan e quist jeq lachman com lachman technology , incorporated dod 094 , kotpp , kotcf '71 cl450 k4 gleep naperville , il 's nothing quite like pitter patter little feet , followed words daddy ! yay !
tjohnson tazmanian prime com \( tod johnson \( 617 \) 275 1800 x2317 \) subject live free , quietly , die distribution entire family organization computervision lines 29 article sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes loud pipes exercise ego projection , arguements following , facts able avoid accident revving engine stock harley pipes make enough noise draw someones attention instinctively revved engine went horn n't know , worked thats rather important saying louder pipes better harley loud gets noticed road reason personally feel loud , well thats bad welcome america home free , land atlanta braves really want fine tuned machine like federal government get involved pass db restrictions generous enough move like revving engine get noticed sure horns hand already throttle get many feet bike going 55mph goes 30 seconds long would take push horn button \? \? n't guy n't even bike \? \? \? tod j johnson dod 883 go slow , take
infante acpub duke edu \( andrew infante \) subject liability insurance required \? distribution usa organization duke university durham , n c lines 22 nntp posting host north1 acpub duke edu article 1993apr14 walter bellcore com fist iscp bellcore com \( richard pierson \) writes lets get fault stuff straight , lived nj nf started , rates went , alot moved pa rates went alot , nf came pa different story sitting parking lot lunch whatever someone guess whose insurance pays \? give \? insurance company unless 's stupid pa law know jerk hits i'm parking lot , company n't sue \( n't immediately say , , 's \) 'll sure tell insurance company go hell raise rates andy infante listen everybody says , fact remains '71 bmw r60 5 've got get thing dod 2426 joan sutherland opinions , dammit , nothing anyone else ! ! !
jeq lachman com \( jonathan e quist \) subject ggrrrrrr ! ! cages double parking motorc nntp posting host birdie i88 isc com organization lachman technology , incorporated , naperville , il lines 27 article d0i sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes article 34211 castle ed ac uk , wbg festival ed ac uk \( w geake \) writes ultra sticky labels printed favourite curse good even local hospitals use instead wheel clamps , putting one \( a5 size \) window cage apartment complex used live tried , put thing driver 's window , could n't miss friend damned near wrecked way home one night , vision blocked sticker suggested manager enormous liability assuming pulling stunt claimed driver fault illegally parking first place would probably good laugh two court , found liable serious careful putting stickers windows yeah , make darn sure cover glass , driver ca n't reasonably expect able drive things car jonathan e quist jeq lachman com lachman technology , incorporated dod 094 , kotpp , kotcf '71 cl450 k4 gleep naperville , il 's nothing quite like pitter patter little feet , followed words daddy ! yay !
mblock reed edu \( matt block \) subject fortune guzzler barred bars ! article reed 1993apr16 organization reed college , portland , oregon lines 37 bclarke galaxy gov bc ca writes saw today 's newspaper fortune guzzler barred bars , england reuter motorcyclist said drunk away 290 , 000 insurance payment less 10 years banned wednesday every pub england wales david roberts , 29 , awarded cash compensation losing leg motorcycle accident spent virtually cider , court southwest england told judge malcolm banned roberts bars england wales 12 months put two years' started brawl pub justice \? ! lost leg 19 , give motorcycling \( assuming david n't know done one legged , \) would want get swamped maybe even ten years ! 'll admit , 'd probably prefer , still judge serious trouble , tell chance get convince ruling backward , nick \? perhaps lad deserved something starting brawl \( bad form horribly bad form , \) getting drunk \? , thought , ones natural born right ! spending money \? goodness , cares one one 's , even one spends recklessly \? i'm ashamed humanity matt block koch dod 007 1980 honda cb650
cdw2t dayhoff med virginia edu \( dances federal rangers \) subject bmw moa members read ! organization university virginia lines 19 article 1993apr15 cs cornell edu karr cs cornell edu \( david karr \) writes bmwmoa election soap opera details deleted well , n't seem shortage alternative candidates obviously 're voting mr vechorik , others \? i'm going buy bmw cast vote groucho ride safe , cliff weston dod '92 seca ii \( tem \) bike excellent condition 've done work glen crash stone
udac uu se \( jonathan \) subject european c insurance organization uppsala university lines 5 nntp posting host udac uu se moved sweden take tests \( written road \) even though valid us license 12 years course became resident , could drive us license became resident n't know italy , 's different eec
discovery uk sun com \( roger collier \) subject camping question \? organization sun microsystems \( uk \) ltd lines 26 distribution world reply discovery uk sun com nntp posting host discovery uk sun com article bnr ca , npet bnr ca \( nick pettefar \) writes back youth \( ahem \) moi purchased gadget heated water 12v source car use thought 'd try worked ok apart one slight problem keep revs 7000 lower motor would die lack electron movement lc \( rz ex colonists \) replaced bolt bottom barrel tap wanted coffee could rev engine boiling pour cup hot water used rather methanol tastes sweeter \( roger collier uk sun com \( \) sun microsystems , h coventry , england u \( 44 \) 203 dod 226 keeper gsxr1100 list
jrwaters eos ncsu edu \( jack rogers waters \) subject aerostitch 1 2 piece \? organization north carolina state university , project eos distribution rec lines 28 article 1993apr14 vax5 cit cornell edu na4 vax5 cit cornell edu writes request opinions better one piece aerostitch two piece aerostitch \? 're looking well , 2 pc versatile , 1 pc better protection , thanks advance , would scared trying fit one piece got two piece , got jacket 42 pants 40 \( due manly man athletic build , kind thing \) laughing , please seriously , i'm trim 42 pants would way big also , n't think 1 piece provide better protection i'm wrong , 'll swiftly ever gently correct net knowledge \( like call \) regards jack waters ii dod 1919 n't fear thief night one comes afternoon , i'm still asleep , worry
mjs sys uea ac uk \( mike sixsmith \) subject countersteering faq please post organization uea school information systems , , uk lines 86 nntp posting host zen sys uea ac uk leavitt cs umd edu \( mr bill \) writes mjs sys uea ac uk \( mike sixsmith \) writes mjs also , imho , telling newbies countersteering , er , counter productive mjs cos confuses rode around quite happily 10 years mjs knowing nothing countersteering cannot say ride differently mjs know interpret mean 're representative every motorcyclist world , eh mike \? rather ! imho humble opinion ! ! leavitt cs umd edu \( mr bill \) writes leavitt time learn countersteering techniques first leavitt starting learn , develop bad habits rode leavitt five years taking first course \( msf erc \) learning leavitt countersteer 's eight years later , still leavitt consciously tell n't steer , countersteer ! old leavitt habits die hard , bad habits even harder mjs sorry bill , complete learned countersteer mjs first time rode bike , 's natural intuitive sorry mike , i'm going kick countersteer \? stone one 's kicked around enough sake argument , 'll concede 's countersteering \( sake argument \) mjs msf teach countersteer , told mjs already 's value \? n't say value said confusing newbies 's big difference 1 \) knowing 's happening make , especially extreme case emergency swerve , 2 \) letting bike whatever make turn knew precisely happening make abruptly command , emergency avoidance abilities improved , mention big improvement normal cornering ability much knowing countersteer motorcycle rather letting motorcycle steer , remember take cognitive command bike rather letting run corners whereupon return original comment better learn 's happening right start take charge , rather developing bad habit merely going along ride bill , kidding firstly , motorcycles steer rider secondly , tyre road , suspension geometry ground clearance motorcycle dictate quickly swerve avoid obstacles , knowledge physics rider 's ears seriously suggesting countersteering knowledge enables corner faster competently could manage otherwise \? \? mike , i'm extremely natural affinity prowess motorcycling formal training total waste time \( assuming total training n't come simply reading rec motorcycles \) however , 90 motorcyclists 've discussed formal rider education regarded experience overwhelmingly positive regardless amount experience brought course \( ranging 10 minutes 10 years \) formal training country \( far aware \) include countersteering theory found countersteering six years ago , physics lecturer also motorcyclist n't believe first said bike right make turn left , went analysed closely , realized right ! 's interesting bit knowledge , 've lot fun since telling others , first sceptical 's interesting bit knowledge , claim essential bikers know , corner faster better result , absurd formal training view absolutely essential 're going able ride bike properly safely including countersteering theory newbie courses confusing people unnecessarily , right time far important matters learn original point mike
npet bnr ca \( nick pettefar \) subject drinking riding nntp posting host bmdhh299 organization bnr europe ltd , maidenhead , uk x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 28 norman hamer \( maven eskimo com \) wrote general rule thumb sobriety cycling \? couple hours feel sober , \? work drink tonight , n't ride tomorrow \? generally find two three decent hits nitrous , riding improves enormously drinking silly , breath smells , costs lots money pigs detect machines works , try nick \( like wow , um , far , er , biker \) dod 1069 concise um um , er nick pettefar , contractor large ' ` ` ' ' ` ` ' currently incarcerated bnr , maidenhead , united kingdom npet bnr ca '86 bmw k100rs kay ` ' ' ` ` ' ' ` pres pbwasoh \( uk \) , bs 0002
charlie elektro cmhnet org \( charlie smith \) subject 's oil k75 going \? organization suspect \? lines 35 article 6j skates gsfc nasa gov tim intrepid gsfc nasa gov \( tim \) writes oil changes , oil level top mark window lower right side motor , 've noticing oil level seen window gradually decreases miles i'm always checking window bike level ground sat idle awhile , oil chance drain back pan bike n't leaking oil place , n't see smoke coming exhaust owner 's manual says amount oil corresponding high low marks oil level window approx 5 quart looks like bike using 25 quarts 1000 miles owner 's manual also gives figure max oil consumption mile question whether degree oil consumption i'm seeing bike normal \? k75 owners seen oil level gradually consistently go \? take bike work \? i'm asking local guys also , get many data points 's normal bmw k bikes use little oil first thousand miles n't know 've three new k bikes , three used bit oil new max maybe 4 quart first 1000 miles soon quits time 10 , 000 miles oil consumption zero 've told harder run bike \( within reason \) sooner stops using oil charlie smith charlie elektro cmhnet org 22 85 dod 0709 doh 0000000004 ama , moa , ra , beemers , bk ohio v bmw lt , r80 gs pd , , triumph columbus , ohio usa
charlie elektro cmhnet org \( charlie smith \) subject internet discussion list organization suspect \? lines 17 article moe ksu ksu edu uafhp uark edu \( brian parker \) writes hello world lovers soon lovers ! started discussion list internet people interested talking bikes ! discuss anything everything interested joining , drop line since really n't , post , send distribute everyone c'mon join enjoy ! huh \? guy invent wreck motorcycles \? curious minds want know charlie smith charlie elektro cmhnet org 22 85 dod 0709 doh 0000000004 ama , moa , ra , beemers , bk ohio v bmw lt , r80 gs pd , , triumph columbus , ohio usa
charlie elektro cmhnet org \( charlie smith \) subject internet discussion list organization suspect \? lines 22 article moe ksu ksu edu uafhp uark edu \( brian parker \) writes hello world lovers soon lovers ! started discussion list internet people interested talking bikes ! discuss anything everything interested joining , drop line since really n't , post , send distribute everyone c'mon join enjoy ! second thought , maybe n't invent wreck moto 's trying round way figure dod theme song one faq , coming right ! charlie smith , dod 0709 , doh 0000000004 , 1kspt 22 85 's nothing quite like pitter patter little feet , followed words daddy ! locked outside \?
charlie elektro cmhnet org \( charlie smith \) subject bikes contacts organization suspect \? lines 20 article 1993apr12 news columbia edu scs8 cunixb cc columbia edu \( sebastian c sears \) writes article 1993apr12 linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org \( cookson \) writes article news cso uiuc edu dcl cso uiuc edu \( student \) writes quick question recently got bike drive often , one problem wind messing contacts gas full face helmet face sheild works actually , n't always work either wind blows around inside rf200 , 'll dry eyes get dust eventually unless i'm also wearing sunglasses inside helmet , usually wear sunglasses inside full face helmet keep dirt wind contacts mumble , mumble , mumble charlie smith , dod 0709 , doh 0000000004 , 1kspt 22 85
charlie elektro cmhnet org \( charlie smith \) subject looking maintenance manual honda cb 360 organization suspect \? lines 19 article 1993apr12 wam umd edu buffalo wam umd edu \( duncan sterling \) writes anyone thinks touring cb 360 pushing envelope , try 175 twin local honda dealer says 1969 honda dream 175 commonly referred serious touring bike first came \? ! \? ! \? ! \( maybe something water around \) 's problem \? back 1958 rode 175 paris back two stroke , back representative size bikes road 350 considered big bike , day 500cc anything bigger real rare charlie smith , dod 0709 , doh 0000000004 , 1kspt 22 85 nothing water ! , un peu du \?
npet bnr ca \( nick pettefar \) subject ggrrrrrr ! ! cages double parking motorcycles pisses ! nntp posting host bmdhh299 organization bnr europe ltd , maidenhead , uk x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 39 evelyn wells , 12 apr 1993 11 43 cst wibbled , morning pulled designated motorcycle parking area , find cage pulled behind bikes people n't double park cars , motorcycles \? never mind rhetorical question , know want know , \? carry pieces paper say n't park car motorcycle area ! ! \? call cops \? wait emerge building beg forgiveness \? anyone else problem , \? n't know local branch , preferred method 'phone ira tell car belongs mp northern ireland government committee hour later , car longer problem 's best park close , though nick \( vengeful biker \) dod 1069 concise oxford plastic m'lud nick pettefar , contractor large ' ` ` ' ' ` ` ' currently incarcerated bnr , maidenhead , united kingdom npet bnr ca '86 bmw k100rs kay ` ' ' ` ` ' ' ` pres pbwasoh \( uk \) , bs 0002
npet bnr ca \( nick pettefar \) subject bikes vs horses \( insect impacts f nntp posting host bmdhh299 organization bnr europe ltd , maidenhead , uk x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 41 jonathan e quist , thu , 15 apr 1993 14 26 42 gmt wibbled article txd able mkt 3com com txd esd 3com com \( tom dietrich \) writes previous article , egreen east sun com \( ed green pixel cruncher \) says lots things , none quoted article usenet ins cwru edu , ai598 cleveland freenet edu \( mike sturdevant \) writes think average dirt biker jump 3 foot log \? 18 log suspended 18 ground \? matter , 4 log suspended 2 5' ground \? oh , ye little imagination n't jump 's lay bike slide ! jonathan e quist nice thing horses though , break middle nowhere , eat fuel 's bit cheaper , nick \( 90 hp biker \) dod 1069 concise oxford ! m'lud nick pettefar , contractor large ' ` ` ' ' ` ` ' currently incarcerated bnr , maidenhead , united kingdom npet bnr ca '86 bmw k100rs kay ` ' ' ` ` ' ' ` pres pbwasoh \( uk \) , bs 0002
bloom inland com subject extraordinary footpeg engineering organization inland steel company east chicago , lines 18 article 1993apr15 csdvax csd unsw edu au , exb0405 csdvax csd unsw edu au writes okay dod'ers , 's goddamn mystery ya ! stud side bike turned absent i'm fairly sure event fact , thread hole footpeg perfectly intact , evidence something forcefully ripped moments previously okay engineering types , f k explain \? rip tightly fitting steel thread threaded hole \( alloy \) without damaging thread hole \? ca n't knock threaded stud hole without destroying threads also part stud would still hole therefore stud hole touched something side bike dr doom
mjs sys uea ac uk \( mike sixsmith \) subject countersteering faq please post organization university east anglia lines 78 egreen east sun com \( ed green pixel cruncher \) writes article zen sys uea ac uk , mjs sys uea ac uk \( mike sixsmith \) writes egreen east sun com \( ed green pixel cruncher \) writes 1 us argue gyroscopes , etc , throughly understand technique countersteering including ones think countersteer way corner \? \? underlying physics different matter , need taught beginners agreed ! countersteering \( technique \) , taught , understanding technique one develop effective emergency avoidance really thing disagree maybe agree disagree \? \? still think telling newbies steer left turn right unnecessarily confusing , 'll anyway get bike ride damn thing 2 know exactly 's happening 's n't clue ! \) ! ! \) understanding physics traction fine cannot see detailed theory like place training course need know maximum traction obtained tyre beginning slide road violent disagreement state true , insufficient form traction management policy available traction increases applied normal force , ie , traction available front wheel increases weight shifts braking forces , decreases rear thus , technique applying brakes , rear increasing pressure front , best learned understanding weight shift available traction jeez , ed , started talking traction management policies thought making weird reference looking railway official line \( though doubts \) front brake applied first , followed rear brake , idea avoid locking rear weight transfer takes place practice suspect people describe saying , brake tire begins slide next useless advice newbie go slide tire find ! also gives zero information develop braking technique changes braking corresponding weight shift develop n't slide tyre , way knowing whether 've achieved maximum braking i'm suggesting always aim brake hard possibly want find limits machine , go beyond case , maximum braking , \( suggested \) aim keep wheels point sliding , 'll exactly suggest ! !
asper calvin uucp \( alan e asper \) subject new motorcycles organization usr lib news organization lines 25 nntp posting host calvin sbc com article 1993apr20 alw nih gov gregh niagara dcrt nih gov \( gregory humphreys \) writes 2 \) buying bike going insurance \? turn 18 month parents taking care insurance till , need comprehensive list costs buying motorcycle going insure \( live washington dc makes difference \) depends bike 've found bike 're interested , call insurance companies rates bikes much cheaper insure might think \( ex 500 costs 127 year st louis i'm 27 \) 3 \) recommendations buy look \? first bike , recommend 500cc 's less bike short enough get feet ground stop one piece advice everyone give take motorcycle safety foundation rider 's course see dealer details states , completion course give break insurance also teach ride properly beginning , wo n't learn bad habits good luck riding motorcycle fun , naked otherwise alan
ant palm21 cray com \( tony jones \) subject insurance discount lines 12 nntp posting host palm21 organization cray research inc , eagan , mn x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 erik asphaug x2773 \( asphaug lpl arizona edu \) wrote unless insurance agent offers multi vehicle discount time cars , assuming 're capable progressive offers multi vehicle discounts good prices imho tony tony jones \( ant cray com , ! uunet ! cray ! ant \) cmcs group , software division cray research inc , lone oak drive , eagan , mn
bclarke galaxy gov bc ca subject first bike \? \? organization bc systems corporation lines 8 article andrew cmu edu , james leo belliveau jbc9 andrew cmu edu writes serious motorcycle enthusiast without motorcycle , put bluntly , sucks really would like advice would oh ! second thought posting ed green ! bruce clarke b c environment e mail bclarke galaxy gov bc ca
cs strath ac uk \( gillian e \) subject fortune guzzler barred bars ! organization comp sci dept , strathclyde univ , glasgow , scotland lines 2 nntp posting host lister 06 cs strath ac uk 's okay , 's perfectly welcome come scotland know \)
blaisec sr hp com \( blaise cirelli \) subject new motorcycles organization hp sonoma county \( srsd mwtd mid \) x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 8 lines 15 gregory humphreys \( gregh niagara dcrt nih gov \) wrote greg , i'm new motorcycles n't even bought one yet position learn 've never ridden took class put group called motorcycle safety foundation california might something similar washington try calling motorcycle dealer area asking 's good first start ride motorcycle correctly
subject traffic morons stafford vax2 winona msus edu \( john stafford \) distribution world organization winona state university nntp posting host stafford winona msus edu lines 28 article 97 uupcb compdyn questor org , ryan cousineau compdyn questor org \( ryan cousineau \) wrote nmm nielsmm imv aau dk \( niels mikkel michelsen \) nmm subject act front traffic jerks nmm day , raining cats dogs , therefor going nmm speed limit , nothing , bike guy bmw nmm driving 1 2 meters behind 7 800 meters next red light nmm calmly put bike leg , walked back car , rolled nmm window , told total idiot \( reason \) nmm right thing \? imho , wrong thing could shot could run bike beat shit consider person foolish enough drive like fool may well act like one , get heck away idiot driver something clearly illegal , file citizens arrest drag person court 's hassle major hassle perp john stafford minnesota state university winona standard disclaimers apply
tony morgan demon co uk \( tony kidson \) subject insurance lotsa points distribution world organization modem palace reply tony morgan demon co uk x newsreader simple news 1 90 \( ka9q dis 1 21 \) lines 16 article 1993apr19 adobe com cjackson adobe com writes glad know none judgemental little shits hey pal ! 're calling \? tony tony kidson pgp 2 2 key request voice 44 81 466 5127 morgan towers , cat move e mail \( order \) morgan road , 've take top tony morgan demon co uk bromley , machine tny cix compulink co uk england br1 3qe honda st1100 dod 0801 100024 301 compuserve com
subject shaft drives wheelies stafford vax2 winona msus edu \( john stafford \) distribution rec organization winona state university nntp posting host stafford winona msus edu lines 9 19 apr 93 21 48 42 gmt , xlyx vax5 cit cornell edu said possible wheelie motorcycle shaft drive \? yes , rear wheel comes ground , front see , hops air ! figure john stafford minnesota state university winona standard disclaimers apply
ahatcher athena cs uga edu \( allan hatcher \) subject traffic morons organization university georgia , athens lines 37 article stafford stafford winona msus edu stafford vax2 winona msus edu \( john stafford \) writes article 97 uupcb compdyn questor org , ryan cousineau compdyn questor org \( ryan cousineau \) wrote nmm nielsmm imv aau dk \( niels mikkel michelsen \) nmm subject act front traffic jerks nmm day , raining cats dogs , therefor going nmm speed limit , nothing , bike guy bmw nmm driving 1 2 meters behind 7 800 meters next red light nmm calmly put bike leg , walked back car , rolled nmm window , told total idiot \( reason \) nmm right thing \? imho , wrong thing could shot could run bike beat shit consider person foolish enough drive like fool may well act like one , get heck away idiot driver something clearly illegal , file citizens arrest drag person court 's hassle major hassle perp john stafford minnesota state university winona ca n't make citizens arrest anything felony standard disclaimers apply
problem inews gateway file \( mike johnson \) subject paris bmw touring \? \? \? nntp posting host mentorg com organization mentor graphics x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl7 lines 8 mike johnson mentorg com mentor graphics sw rd software support corporation wilsonville , framework products division
ak296 yfn ysu edu \( john r daker \) subject shaft drives wheelies organization st elizabeth hospital , youngstown , oh lines 15 reply ak296 yfn ysu edu \( john r daker \) nntp posting host yfn ysu edu previous article , xlyx vax5 cit cornell edu \( \) says mike terry asks possible wheelie motorcycle shaft drive \? mike imposible due shaft effect centripital effects rotating shaft counteract tendency front wheel lift ground dod 650 darkman significant problems face cannot solved level thinking created albert einstein eternal champion
ak296 yfn ysu edu \( john r daker \) subject first bike \? \? wheelies organization st elizabeth hospital , youngstown , oh lines 24 reply ak296 yfn ysu edu \( john r daker \) nntp posting host yfn ysu edu previous article , jbc9 andrew cmu edu \( james leo belliveau \) says anyone , serious motorcycle enthusiast without motorcycle , put bluntly , sucks really would like advice would good starter bike know one thing however , need make first bike good one , buying second time soon question specifically interested racing bikes , \( cbr 600 f2 , gsx r 750 \) know may sound kind crazy considering 've never bike , responsible , fast learner , love please give advice think would help search , including places look even specific bikes want sell thanks \) answer obvious zx 11 dod 650 darkman significant problems face cannot solved level thinking created albert einstein eternal champion
txd esd 3com com \( tom dietrich \) subject shaft drives wheelies distribution rec lines 18 nntp posting host able mkt 3com com xlyx vax5 cit cornell edu writes possible wheelie motorcycle shaft drive \? , 's possible countersteer either \( humor p ! \) '86 concours sophisticated lady tom dietrich '72 1000cc sportster 'ol sport sale dod 055 '79 sr500 spike , garage rat ama queued m900 ! ! fssnoc 1843 two gather , big fun ! 1kspt 17 28 bell \( 408 \) 764 5874 cool rule , sometimes e mail txd able mkt 3com com \( h lewis \) disclaimer 3com takes responsibility opinions preceding
microsoft com \( max \) subject honda sale organization microsoft corp keywords cbr hurricane distribution usa lines 8 sale 1988 honda \( hurricane \) bought bike end last summer although love , bills forcing part bike little 6000 miles runs strong tune possibly break pads rubber good also tossing tankbag kiwi helmet asking 3000 00 best offer add hits newspaper 04 20 93 04 23 93 interested parties call 206 635 2006 day 889 evenings later 11 00pm
klinger ccu umanitoba ca \( jorg klinger \) subject traffic morons nntp posting host ccu umanitoba ca organization university manitoba , winnipeg , canada lines 27 97 uupcb compdyn questor org ryan cousineau compdyn questor org \( ryan cousineau \) writes nmm nielsmm imv aau dk \( niels mikkel michelsen \) nmm subject act front traffic jerks 've found effective strategy flash brake light pumping pedal , obviously need bit free play brake pedal seems even brain dead idiot usually discern flashing red light directly front may mean something wrong see one thing wrong strategy boy cried wolf jorg klinger gsxr1100 new arch eng services lost horizons cr500 think umanitoba , man ca embalmer it175 anonymous squidonk
dave dal farra gpz750 bnr ca subject cb750 c flames exhaust ! ! ! ! x xxdate tue , 20 apr 93 14 15 17 gmt nntp posting host organization bnr ltd x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d9 lines 49 article 1993apr20 9199 research nj nec com chris behanna , behanna syl nj nec com writes article 1993apr19 bnr ca dave dal farra gpz750 bnr ca writes reminds great editorial bruce reeve couple months ago cycle canada pissed cops pulling dangerous spots \( often blind corners \) one day decided get revenge cruising factory test bike , noticed cop pulled motorist ramp almost shoulder bright lad , hit bike 's kill switch passing cop , happened bending towards offending motorist exposing passing world ignition system dead , pumped two three times fill exhaust canister 's volatile raw fuel took stab kill switch light ignition send flame swell 's direction wonder cycle cops read cycle canada \? although agree spirit action , hope rider 800 takes replace exhaust system destroyed owner 's manual explicitly warns behavior exactly reason destroy way later , chris behanna dod 114 1983 h fxwg wide glide jubilee 's red lady behanna syl nj nec com 1975 cb360t baby bike disclaimer would nec 1991 zx 11 needs name agree anyway \? raised pack wild corn dogs ya , fat chance offending rider moto journalist guys sell hundreds bikes one stroke pen get away murder comes test bikes one way , probably worth early expiration one see bone head get butt baked dave f 's true say money talks mine spoke said drink ! '
bclarke galaxy gov bc ca subject buy first bike , etc organization bc systems corporation lines 8 lot posts lately wanna buy first bike gsxr zx cbr fzr good bike learn \? etc think i'm going put together faq buying new bike ravi used post one time bruce clarke b c environment e mail bclarke galaxy gov bc ca
hq ileaf com \( gary \) subject stuff sale gone ! ! ! nntp posting host ars reply hq ileaf com \( gary \) organization interleaf , inc distribution usa lines 10 thanks responded three items \( electric vest , aerostitch suit , scarf \) spoken gary gary completely irrational attraction bmw bikes interleaf , inc prospect place , 9 hillside ave , waltham , 02154 ileaf com 617 290 fax 617 290 dod
cjackson adobe com \( curtis jackson \) subject new motorcycles organization adobe systems incorporated , mountain view lines 26 article 1993apr20 alw nih gov gregh niagara dcrt nih gov \( gregory humphreys \) writes 1 \) 1200 1300 work , would cover everything \( bike , helmet , anything else i'm ignorant know need buy \) following numbers approximate , doubt get flamed helmet \( new , cheap \) 100 jacket \( used cheap \) 100 gloves \( nothing special \) 20 motorcycle safety foundation riding course \( must ! \) 140 leaves 900 1000 \( depending accuracy numbers \) buy used bike , get registered , get insured , get running properly 'd say 're cutting close perhaps parents reasonable , indicated wish learn ride safely , could get pick cost msf course safety gear early holiday presents whatever one time \( well , long term anyway \) investments , could spend money actual bike , insurance , registration , maintenance curtis jackson cjackson mv us adobe com '91 hawk gt '81 maxim 650 dod 0721 kotb '91 black lab mix studley doright '92 collie golden george justification taking away individuals' freedom guise public safety thomas jefferson
karr cs cornell edu \( david karr \) subject fortune guzzler barred bars ! organization cornell univ cs dept , ithaca ny 14853 lines 23 article dartvax dartmouth edu russell p hughes dartmouth edu \( \) writes article 1993apr19 4057 bnr ca npet bnr ca \( nick pettefar \) writes regards pub brawl , might history things biker n't make reasonable person even dod might object joining , knows \? history things , mentioned article , present irrelevant detail got drinking money \? ca n't say exactly fault , sit looks like 're seeing results either law going way hand shoddy journalism law wants attach strings spend settlement , put money trust n't , would assume 's perfectly legitimate drink away , though would n't spend way david karr \( karr cs cornell edu \)
npet bnr ca \( nick pettefar \) subject fortune guzzler barred bars ! nntp posting host bmdhh299 organization bnr europe ltd , maidenhead , uk x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 43 david karr , tue , 20 apr 1993 01 01 01 gmt wibbled article dartvax dartmouth edu russell p hughes dartmouth edu \( \) writes article 1993apr19 4057 bnr ca npet bnr ca \( nick pettefar \) writes regards pub brawl , might history things biker n't make reasonable person even dod might object joining , knows \? history things , mentioned article , present irrelevant detail got drinking money \? ca n't say exactly fault , sit looks like 're seeing results either law going way hand shoddy journalism law wants attach strings spend settlement , put money trust n't , would assume 's perfectly legitimate drink away , though would n't spend way david karr \( karr cs cornell edu \) heard newspaper article journalists editors always pick interesting sensational facts editor sun said never let facts get way good story must noticed motorcyclists get treated press thrive , ignorance , one unfortunately 's enough salt keep taking pinch nick \( cynical old biker \) dod 1069 concise oxford leaky new gearbox m'lud nick pettefar , contractor large teneo tuus intervallum cuurrently incarcerated bnr , npet bnr ca '86 bmw k100rs kay maidenhead , united kingdom pres pbwasoh \( uk \) , bs 0002 \( \) ask bell tolls , tolls 's time get
joe rider cactus org \( joe senner \) subject 's oil k75 went reply joe rider cactus org distribution world organization lines 10 tim intrepid gsfc nasa gov \( tim \) writes wanted say thanks everyone sent e mail posted reply question oil consumption k75s decide \? joe senner joe rider cactus org austin area ride mailing list ride rider cactus org texas splatterfest mailing list fest rider cactus org
paulb harley tti com \( paul blumstein \) subject best times , worst times nntp posting host harley tti com organization black belt motorcyclists association lines 26 \( note l ny times \) times year , funny thing happens bike engine runs perfectly completely smooth runs poorly normally , days , exceptional theory air density moisture content air get complete combustion needless say , puts great mood mood lasted 20 miles heading north 405 freeway , mile two south 10 , throttle stopped responding lanes nothing make way 4 lanes shoulder initially , pushing least traffic heavy enough cars mind stopping turned screw inside mikuni carb keep hearing one keep screws tight bike , never thought screws inside carb least roadside fixable way hardly time death life 's way telling 've fired r paul blumstein , paulb harley tti com , dod 36 , abate , ama , hog , doh 2 kd6laa , marc , arrl , platypus 240 , qrp arpci , naswa , lwca , rcma \( cala905 \) transaction technology , inc , santa monica , ca
frankb sad hp com \( frank ball \) subject type spesifications \( cb , vfr , gt , etc \) organization , x newsreader tin version 1 1 4 pl6 lines 22 vidar olaf \( dhhalden \) wrote somebody tell letter spesifications motorcycle models really mean example means c , b r honda cbr v , , g , l p suzuki honda v designates v engine street bike vf v 4 , vt v twin cb street bike parallel twin inline 4 cylinder engine r used mean race bike , also used mean sport bike cl old street bikes high pipes cm custom street bike cr dirt two strokes xl dual purpose bike xr dirt four stroke , dual purpose bike l suffix gl touring bike frank ball 1ur frankb sad hp com \( 707 \) 794 4168 work , hewlett packard \( 707 \) 794 3844 fax , \( 707 \) 538 3693 home 1212 valley house drive it175 , xt350 , seca 750 , '62 f 100 , pl510 park ca 4999 , law , ama , dod , i'm nra
klf druwa att com \( franklinkl \) subject hell mets summary visual damage indicator lines 50 article 1993apr18 freenet carleton ca , aa963 freenet carleton ca \( lloyd carr \) writes previous article , maven mavenry altcit eskimo com \( norman hamer \) says n't end replacing real near future , would better wear \( totally \) 3 4 face dot rated cheapie n't fit well keep wind well , wearing shoei rf 200 lot comfortable , keeps wind better , quieter might minor damage \? wear rf200 even drops paint chips , far better helmet poorly fitting one 've many scratches repaired plus i'm still confident protection helmet continue give actually see actual cracks \( using glass \) consider replacement good advice couple years involved low speed landed back pavement head \( \) hit pavement , leaving couple dings chips paint point impact , visible damage called helmet manufacturer inquired damage said way fiberglass shell works first give , , crack way fiberglass serves spread force impact wider area fiberglass done thing , foam liner takes care absorbing \( hopefully \) remaining impact force told second stage fiberglass functionality \( glass resin layers \) occur visible signs , either inside outside helmet suggested send helmet would inspect \( including x \) sent back helmet letter stating could find damage would compromise ability helmet provide maximum protection \( suspect letter would eliminate able claim prior damage helmet event sue \) bottom line , though , appears helmets integrity compromised visible signs way know sure send back inspected note helmet manufacturers provide inspections services another point consider purchasing lid ken franklin say 's heaven people wait ama say 's better say ai n't gwrra 'd rather laugh sinners cry saints dod 0126 sinners lots fun , y'know good die young
speedy engr latech edu \( speedy mercer \) subject ok , little hasty organization louisiana tech university lines 30 nntp posting host bhm116e spc engr latech edu article 1993apr20 010734 megatek com randy megatek com \( randy davis \) writes article speedy 155 engr latech edu speedy engr latech edu \( speedy mercer \) writes article jnmoyne 190493111630 moustic lbl gov jnmoyne lbl gov \( jean noel moyne \) writes dwi stand \? thought dui driving influence , w stand \? driving intoxicated actually , beleive dwi normally means driving impaired rather intoxicated , least states 've lived changed louisiana girl went court case claiming stoned pot , intoxicated liquor ! one without necessarily impaired liquor drugs , enough sleep , total moron \) , impair someone etc i'm surprised got hook perhaps dwi lousiana confined liquor \? lets say dui ! dod 8177 technician \( dr speed \) student stolen taglines god real , unless declared integer came , saw , deleted files black holes god dividing zero world end 5 minutes please log earth 98 full please delete anyone
essbaum rchland vnet ibm com \( alexander essbaum \) subject header paint disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host relva rchland ibm com organization ibm rochester lines 8 seems 200 miles rain bike 's headers metal underneath solid , need sand rust coating repaint pipes black recommendations paint application said paint \? thanks ! axel
drinckes tssc wlg nec co jp \( doug rinckes \) subject rgv posing ! ! nntp posting host 133 206 251 21 reply drinckes tssc wlg nec co jp organization telecommunications systems support centre , new zealand lines 18 article dsd es com , bgardner pebbles es com \( blaine gardner \) writes article speedy 153 engr latech edu speedy engr latech edu \( speedy mercer \) writes article spam maths adelaide edu au spam maths adelaide edu au \( adam \) writes squid deleted 5 helment laws vary state state state \( louisiana \) law personaly , would go 2 feet bike without one law law helment save life 'll go 2 feet , draw line 3 'll see 3 raise 4 doug rinckes drinckes tssc wlg nec co jp new zealand tssc ltd 1976 bmw r100s 1960 bmw r60 1940 indian
dhhalden \( vidar olaf \) subject type spesifications \( cb , vfr , gt , etc \) lines 16 nntp posting host organization ostfold college somebody tell letter spesifications motorcycle models really mean example means c , b r honda cbr v , , g , l p suzuki wanna distribute club magazine want lists types , already knows harley thanks advance ! vidar vidar norway rock hard ride free proud , true !
schultz hpcc01 corp hp com \( david schultz \) subject honda sale organization hp corporate notes server lines 5 wanted let people know motorcycle sold thanks inquiries dave schultz
gharriso hpcc01 corp hp com \( graeme harrison \) subject boom ! dog attack ! organization hp corporate notes server lines 30 several years ago , driving cage , dog quiet intersection right front enough distance us n't slow however , 2nd dog suddenly appeared collided right front bumper force impact enough kill scottish apparently , following 1st dog henceforth , dog decides cross street , keep eye 2nd dog many dogs like travel pairs packs 've yet experience dog chasing black pretty loud oem horn \( good , good enuff \) bike large heavy enough run right one smaller larger ones would trouble getting leg saddlebags engine guards 'd def feel vulnerable '68 trump 'd easier leg chewing target 's persistent dog running bikers despite complaints owner would n't adverse running truck dogs life n't worth much imho compared child riding bike gets knocked ground said dog dies head injury dog neighborhood 's vicious public menace running unleashed fair game road kill candidate graeme harrison \( gharriso hpcc01 corp hp com \) dod 649
bean ra cgd ucar edu \( gregory bean \) subject help ! bikes short \? organization climate global dynamics division ncar , boulder , co lines 18 help ! 've got friend shopping first motorcycle great ! unfortunately , needs 28 seat great far , thing 've found old unhappy looking kz440 , 's time tap collective memory denizens anybody know models \( old models used bikes problem \) 28 lower seat \? , since make difficult \( 8 \) \) , would prefer end cruiser 's bonus points listing tiny standards seem remember thread point similar passing several months ago anybody keep list \? thanks ! gregory bean dod 580 bean ncar ucar edu fact , everything 's got big sound
syma sussex ac uk \( ian \) subject cb750 c flames exhaust ! ! ! ! organization university sussex lines 25 article ux1 cso uiuc edu , ux1 cso uiuc edu \( mike \) hi , 82 cb750 custom replaced cylinder head gasket put back together , would n't idle running 2 3 cylinders would backfire spit flames exhaust right side exhaust 4 2 mac bought new plugs today runs rough still wo n't idle quite sure fine tune knobs carbs messed checked timing , fine , advanced little n't help assume carbs need buy kit \? , kit best price suggestions \? dont think carbs , would suspect cam timing , say head , would make sense , ian 0 02 emu 's worth ian whatever school engineering insignificant , university sussex ooo important england anon
mmaser engr uvic ca \( michael maser \) subject extraordinary footpeg engineering nntp posting host uvic ca reply mmaser engr uvic ca organization university victoria , victoria , bc , canada lines 38 previous article , exb0405 csdvax csd unsw edu au \( \) says okay dod'ers , 's goddamn mystery ya ! today turning 90 degree corner like day , slight difference rough spot right path caused suspension compress mid corner part bike hit ground tangible thunk pulled first opportunity damage deleted barry manor dod 620 confused accidental peg check bottom pipes barry suspect may hit years past thought peg found bottom pipe made contact showed good sized dent scratch believe 'd feel change foot peg bumped piece missing contribute vibration loss yep , thing happened old honda 200 mike maser dod squid rating 5 9235 pinetree rd sidney , b c , hopalonga yuka yuka excess 400 v8l wish list tridump , mucho , burley home \( 604 \) 656 6131 thumpison , work \( 604 \) 721 mmaser sirius uvic ca joke month gay say university victoria indian chief \? news rec motorcycles answer bum couple bucks \?
randy megatek com \( randy davis \) subject ok , little hasty reply randy megatek com organization megatek corporation , san diego , california lines 24 article speedy 155 engr latech edu speedy engr latech edu \( speedy mercer \) writes article jnmoyne 190493111630 moustic lbl gov jnmoyne lbl gov \( jean noel moyne \) writes dwi stand \? thought dui driving influence , w stand \? driving intoxicated actually , beleive dwi normally means driving impaired rather intoxicated , least states 've lived changed louisiana girl went court case claiming stoned pot , intoxicated liquor ! one without necessarily impaired liquor drugs , enough sleep , total moron \) , impair someone etc i'm surprised got hook perhaps dwi lousiana confined liquor \? randy davis email randy megatek com zx 11 00072 pilot uunet ! ucsd ! megatek ! randy dod 0013 , one goes eleven nigel tufnel , spinal tap
csundh30 ursa calvin edu \( charles sundheim \) subject looking movies w bikes summary bike movies keywords movies nntp posting host ursa organization calvin college lines 21 folks , assembling info film criticism class final project essentially need movies use motos substantial capacity \( ie fallen angles , t2 , h marlboro man , raising arizona , etc \) help fellow r could give would much \( btw , summary bike \( \) plot helpful necessary \) thanx erc c eric sundheim csundh30 ursa calvin edu , mi , usa vfr750f dod 1138
ryan cousineau compdyn questor org \( ryan cousineau \) subject traffic morons reply ryan cousineau compdyn questor org \( ryan cousineau \) distribution world organization computer dynamics vancouver b c \( 604 \) 986 9937 \( 604 \) 255 9937 lines 36 nmm nielsmm imv aau dk \( niels mikkel michelsen \) nmm subject act front traffic jerks nmm day , raining cats dogs , therefor going nmm speed limit , nothing , bike guy bmw nmm driving 1 2 meters behind 7 800 meters next red light nmm calmly put bike leg , walked back car , rolled nmm window , told total idiot \( reason \) nmm right thing \? nmm truly nmm niels mikkel well , sounds great ! real bdi cager , 've found effective strategy flash brake light pumping pedal , obviously need bit free play brake pedal seems even brain dead idiot usually discern flashing red light directly front may mean something wrong two problems 'd see strategy red light may change get anything meaningful mouth , occupant \( \) may take exception opinions demonstrate physically \( parked bike \) admittedly , latter slim chance , would enough give pause slmr 2 1a sometimes get windshield , sometimes bug computer dynamics bbs 604 255 9937 \( hst \) 604 986 9937 \( v32 \) vancouver , bc , canada easy access , low rates , friendly sysop
gregh niagara dcrt nih gov \( gregory humphreys \) subject new motorcycles organization national institutes health , bethesda , md lines 39 hello everyone i'm new motorcycles flames please n't bike yet need pieces information 1 \) 1200 1300 work , would cover everything \( bike , helmet , anything else i'm ignorant know need buy \) 2 \) buying bike going insurance \? turn 18 month parents taking care insurance till , need comprehensive list costs buying motorcycle going insure \( live washington dc makes difference \) 3 \) recommendations buy look \? 4 \) dc , imagine every state \( ok , ok , 're state 're bitter \) \) , take written test first get permit however , i'm wondering one goes learning ride bike enough \) get liscence b \) kill oneself n't know anyone bike could teach , advice 've heard either live near field friend pickup truck , answers ride around neighborhood hope best \? kind live residential area 's suburbs 's still big city i'm mile downtown n't seem viable stories learned \? thanks replies advance greg humphreys wq meant \( damn \) greg humphreys must thursday never national institutes health could get hang gregh alw nih gov \( 301 \) 402 1817 arthur dent
svoboda rtsg mot com \( david svoboda \) subject happy easter ! nntp posting host corolla18 organization motorola inc , cellular infrastructure group lines 14 article vtserf cc vt edu ranck joesbar cc vt edu \( wm l ranck \) writes hey ! n't picking morgan use old technology 's said 's nothing wrong using old technology people still use shovels dig holes well , really ca n't dig hole stock shovel least need performance mods like besides , 's real bad rear tire dave svoboda \( svoboda void rtsg mot com \) i'm getting tired 90 concours 1000 \( mmmmmmmmmm ! \) beating , dave 84 rz 350 \( ring ding \) \( woops ! \) never learn ama 583905 dod 0330 cog 939 \( chicago \) beth bruiser dixon
kevinh hslrswi hasler ascom ch \( kevinh \) subject happy easter ! originator kevinh nath reply kevinh hasler ascom ch organization ascom hasler ag lines 21 article 1993apr19 i88 isc com , jeq lachman com \( jonathan e quist \) writes article tekgen bv tek com davet interceptor cds tek com \( dave tharp cds \) writes article 1993apr15 i88 isc com jeq lachman com \( jonathan e quist \) writes rolls royce owned non british firm \? ye gods , would end civilization know \? ford owns aston martin jaguar , general motors owns lotus vauxhall rover owned 20 honda yes , 's minor blasphemy u companies would likes , jaguar , \( sob \) lotus 's outright sacrilege rr non british ownership 's fundamental thing think legal clause rr name , regardless owns must british company owner e ba sell company name kevinh hasler ascom ch
cbnewsm cb att com \( antonio j salerno jr \) subject dod books organization distribution na lines 18 anyone around read yet \? anita number \? title software measurement dod systems recommendations initial core measures anita carleton , et al subject software engineering computer programming management author carleton , anita author carnegie mellon university software engineering institute publ pittsburgh , pa carnegie mellon university , software engineering institute , 1992 53 p tony opinions nothing , may even want antonio salerno heart , liver , spleen , pancreas antonio j salerno att com miraculous organs work total darkness ! david letterman
speedy engr latech edu \( speedy mercer \) subject motorcycle detailing tip 18 organization louisiana tech university lines 15 nntp posting host bhm116e spc engr latech edu article 1993apr15 hemlock cray com ant palm21 cray com \( tony jones \) writes note users fairings light hits right , become giant glass melt hole pod ! dod 8177 technician \( dr speed \) student stolen taglines god real , unless declared integer came , saw , deleted files black holes god dividing zero world end 5 minutes please log earth 98 full please delete anyone
organization washington university , st louis brad thone c09615bt wuvmd netnews wuvmd subject ggrrrrrr ! ! cages double parking motorc lines 25 apartment complex used live tried , put thing driver 's window , could n't miss friend damned near wrecked way home one night , vision blocked sticker suggested manager enormous liability assuming pulling stunt claimed driver fault illegally parking first place would probably good laugh two court , found liable serious seems driver driving vehicle visually impaired n't like scraping ice snow windshield \? say , 's another thing bugs n't people scrape damn windows \? 've seen people driving cars barely driver 's half windshield cleared nothing else cleared seems pretty stupid n't something \( probably varies state state \) says certain percentage glass must clear \? oh , well brad thone systems consultant systems service enterprises st louis , mo c09615bt wuvmd wustl edu c09615bt wuvmd bitnet
speedy engr latech edu \( speedy mercer \) subject fortune guzzler barred bars ! organization louisiana tech university lines 19 nntp posting host bhm116e spc engr latech edu article 1993apr16 reed edu mblock reed edu \( matt block \) writes \( assuming david n't know done one legged , \) would new orleans , la , company making motorcycles bound people ! rig consists flat bed sidecar rig car set hand controls mounted conventional handlebars ! looks wierd hell see guy driving rig car girlfriend sits bike passenger ! dod 8177 technician \( dr speed \) student stolen taglines god real , unless declared integer came , saw , deleted files black holes god dividing zero world end 5 minutes please log earth 98 full please delete anyone
staal idt unit \( staal \) subject countersteering faq please post reply staal idt unit \( staal \) organization norwegian institute technology lines 33 article mjs zen sys uea ac uk , mjs sys uea ac uk \( mike sixsmith \) writes formal training view absolutely essential 're going able ride bike properly safely including countersteering theory newbie courses confusing people unnecessarily , right time far important matters learn original point mike agree formal training essential safe riding , disagree strongly original point point formal training must prepare riders road opinion know much possible , exclude aspects riding bike course wrong imho countersteering particular countersteering something must trained common reaction among new bikers \( bicycle riders \) emergency situation , steer motorcycle like bicycle know makes motorcycle go direction opposite intended needless say , dangerous specific example rider left turn rider thinks close right shoulder road , tries steer motorcycle left pulling left handle pushing right handle motorcycle goes road worse scenario rider , turn middle turn rider sees truck coming towards panicking rider tries steer motorcycle away truck crashes right main function riding course teach avoid emergency situations , one thus , knowledge \( training \) countersteering imho must riding course staal idt unit
sturges oasys dt navy mil \( richard sturges \) subject help ! bikes short \? reply sturges oasys dt navy mil \( richard sturges \) organization carderock division , nswc , bethesda , md lines 23 rec motorcycles , bean ra cgd ucar edu \( gregory bean \) writes help ! 've got friend shopping first motorcycle great ! unfortunately , needs 28 seat great far , thing 've found old unhappy looking kz440 kz440 thought best 100 bike 've ever ridden mind , 've ridden many bikes seem remember thread point similar passing several months ago anybody keep list \? must mistaken thread group ever point seriously , many bikes style bike much money rides hawk gt ease cruisers low 's real short rich sturges \( h \) 703 536 4443 nswc carderock division \( w \) 301 227 1670 speak one else , listen
jet netcom netcom com \( j eric townsend \) subject insurance lotsa points reply cjackson adobe com 's message mon , 19 apr 1993 21 13 40 gmt organization netcom online communications service 1993apr19 adobe com lines 25 cjackson curtis jackson cjackson adobe com writes cjackson glad know none judgemental little shits cjackson ridden driven tired , , , angry , distracted cjackson last 3 years , might guilty us little shits n't drive ride 're impaired stopped sort thing good friend mine got killed drunk driver failed stop red drove side volvo '72 caddy , suspect responsible adults net n't bother posting flame wars rec moto cjackson justification taking away individuals' freedom cjackson guise public safety thomas jefferson also owned slaves , kept forced , enough resources wanted without fear , also smoked dope jet netcom com j eric townsend '92 , dod \( hafta kill \) fun account work email goes jet nas nasa gov got put wanna play saxophone skate unix die ,
xlyx vax5 cit cornell edu subject shaft drives wheelies distribution rec organization cornell university lines 4 possible wheelie motorcycle shaft drive \? mike terry '82 virago
cjackson adobe com \( curtis jackson \) subject type spesifications \( cb , vfr , gt , etc \) organization adobe systems incorporated , mountain view lines 9 article c5sk1d c1p srgenprp sr hp com frankb sad hp com \( frank ball \) writes honda v designates v engine street bike vf v 4 , vt v twin honda hawk \( nt 650 \) \? 's twin , called vt curtis jackson cjackson mv us adobe com '91 hawk gt '81 maxim 650 dod 0721 kotb '91 black lab mix studley doright '92 collie golden george justification taking away individuals' freedom guise public safety thomas jefferson
vech ra msstate edu \( craig vechorik \) subject moa stuff like ra nntp posting host ra msstate edu organization mississippi state university lines 12 've seen 17 years moa member , folks ra also moa guess 's called covering bases get idea really happening else one think ra gets news 's inside moa \? nihilism n't everyone , really matters ! craig vechorik bmw moa ambassador \( ya , finally sent bucks ra \) real bmw 's two wheels politically correct statement dod 843
maven mavenry altcit eskimo com \( norman hamer \) subject electricty x altnet id lines 30 1 \) trying figure way put halogen beam cb360t easy ways \( e slip bulb replacement \) \? 2 \) told guy bike shop damn near bright enough incandescent beam might caused low battery went picked cheapo motorcycle battery charging system tester hook battery , 's got 3 lights good charge start engine \( test charging system \) , n't even register 's supposed light 5 6 lights everything ok , stays point battery question , indeed charging system plain messed , heck battery staying fully charged \? 'd think would darned near dead supporting lights , etc '75 cb360t 's problem charging system \? generally slower charging normal bigger bikes \? easy fix \? 3 \) happy noise put 300 miles bike weekend , finally got endorsement really good , cage quit running worth damn wo n't money repair first \) says bright sunny week , 20 chance rain friday big grin , bugs teeth
maven mavenry altcit eskimo com \( norman hamer \) subject good reasons wave x altnet id lines 11 one morning , getting coffee thoughts waving bikers makes sense hey , 's going , nice meet road , good ride 1 \) 're watching bikes wave , means attention road , , 're likely see cages 2 \) keeps habit watching really carefully bikes 're cage good thing
npet bnr ca \( nick pettefar \) subject happy easter ! nntp posting host bmdhh299 organization bnr europe ltd , maidenhead , uk x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 37 kevinh , tue , 20 apr 1993 13 23 01 gmt wibbled article 1993apr19 i88 isc com , jeq lachman com \( jonathan e quist \) writes article tekgen bv tek com davet interceptor cds tek com \( dave tharp cds \) writes article 1993apr15 i88 isc com jeq lachman com \( jonathan e quist \) writes rolls royce owned non british firm \? ye gods , would end civilization know \? ford owns aston martin jaguar , general motors owns lotus vauxhall rover owned 20 honda yes , 's minor blasphemy u companies would \? \? likes , jaguar , \( sob \) lotus 's outright sacrilege rr non british ownership 's fundamental thing think legal clause rr name , regardless owns must british company owner e ba sell company name kevinh hasler ascom ch n't believe ba anything rr 's seperate company rr aero engine company think government stake unfortunately owned stake jaguar , decided make quick buck sold ford bastards definitely ultimate arthur government nick \( cynical biker \) dod 1069 concise oxford leaky gearbox m'lud nick pettefar , contractor large teneo tuus intervallum cuurrently incarcerated bnr , npet bnr ca '86 bmw k100rs kay maidenhead , united kingdom pres pbwasoh \( uk \) , bs 0002
convex com \( matthew \) subject best times , worst times nntp posting host eugene convex com organization convex computer corporation , richardson , tx , usa x disclaimer message written user convex computer corp opinions expressed user necessarily convex lines 17 1993apr20 tti com paulb harley tti com \( paul blumstein \) writes \( note l ny times \) turned screw inside mikuni carb keep hearing one keep screws tight bike , never thought screws inside carb least roadside fixable way hardly time better check screws carb suck one jug piston , valve 've seen happen matthew
doc webrider central sun com \( steve bunis se southwest chicago \) subject cobra locks organization sun microsystems , inc lines 27 distribution usa reply doc webrider central sun com nntp posting host webrider central sun com posting alt best methods securing motorcycle got several responses referring cobra lock \( described \) anyone come across store carrying lock chicago area \? feedback someone used \? thanks info , steve article shelley u washington edu , stein u washington edu \( david \) writes incidentally , best lock 've found bikes cobra lock 's cable shrouded articulated , hardened steel sleeve lock cylindrical locking engages joints points chain adjusted \( like \) ca n't get leverage lock break open cylinder well protected would n't want cut one without torch vice heavy duty cutting wheel steve bunis , sun microsystems dod 93 st1100 , il ama 78 kz650
jrlaf sgi502 msd lmsc lockheed com \( j r laferriere \) subject , xxxx , mean police officers read stuff \? organization lockheed missiles space co lines 11 wondering law officers read several questions would like ask pertaining motorcycles cops please n't say get vehicle code , go local station , obvious things like questions would found places answered face face real , live flesh , cop brother friend cousin whos father cop , etc n't bother writing thanks
speedy engr latech edu \( speedy mercer \) subject looking movies w bikes organization louisiana tech university lines 25 nntp posting host bhm116e spc engr latech edu summary bike movies keywords movies article csundh30 ursa csundh30 ursa calvin edu \( charles sundheim \) writes folks , assembling info film criticism class final project essentially need movies use motos substantial capacity \( ie fallen angles , t2 , h marlboro man , raising arizona , etc \) help fellow r could give would much \( btw , summary bike \( \) plot helpful necessary \) easy rider \( harleys , drugs , rednecks , new orleans \) , mad max \( violence , dod wanna 's \) , time rider \( honda thumper , time travel \) , sunday \( documentary dirtbike racers , great ! \) , \( great \? \) escape \( steve , nazis \) , rebel without cause \( james dean , future dod'ers \) think last two right , old movies n't seen years dod 8177 technician \( dr speed \) student stolen taglines god real , unless declared integer came , saw , deleted files black holes god dividing zero world end 5 minutes please log earth 98 full please delete anyone
speedy engr latech edu \( speedy mercer \) subject , xxxx , mean police officers read stuff \? organization louisiana tech university lines 22 nntp posting host bhm116e spc engr latech edu article 1993apr20 iscnvx lmsc lockheed com jrlaf sgi502 msd lmsc lockheed com \( j r laferriere \) writes wondering law officers read several questions would like ask pertaining motorcycles cops please n't say get vehicle code , go local station , obvious things like questions would found places answered face face real , live flesh , cop brother friend cousin whos father cop , etc n't bother writing thanks gotta ask questions want ask active cop \? working dod \? b \) dod 8177 technician \( dr speed \) student stolen taglines god real , unless declared integer came , saw , deleted files black holes god dividing zero world end 5 minutes please log earth 98 full please delete anyone
pyuxe cc bellcore com \( corrado , mitchell \) subject route suggestions \? organization bellcore , livingston , nj distribution usa summary new york , heh \? lines 17 article cronkite central sun com , doc webrider central sun com \( steve bunis chicago \) writes 81 point route presently undetermined pennsylvania , new york \? , back chicago \( 6 6 \) suggestions make new york state , interstate parkway pleasant ride \( beautiful scenery , good road surface , minimal traffic \) may also want take along seven lakes drive parkway reasons plus road sweeps along hills sweeping turns old forest ' mitch corrado bell communications research dec panther bellcore com wreck \( 908 \) 699 mad vax code warrior
karr cs cornell edu \( david karr \) subject new motorcycles organization cornell univ cs dept , ithaca ny 14853 lines 83 article 1993apr20 alw nih gov gregh niagara dcrt nih gov \( gregory humphreys \) writes hello everyone i'm new motorcycles flames please n't bike yet need pieces information stories learned \? 'll tell story example early 1984 took riding lessons college roommate old honda cb360t taken msf beginner 's course , actually learned needed know ride proceeded buy beat honda 400 12 helmet rode around wearing cotton decided invest full face helmet \( first smart move \) sometime around also passed road test may 4 , 1984 , got caught way home 4 mile trip entering town lived \( rather urban \) , stop suddenly red light noticed late , rear tire , ejected face upward oncoming lane traffic fortunately oncoming traffic also stopped red light , otherwise might slid car killed anecdotal evidence , sure , later took experienced rider course msf saw earlier training could helped greatly case need even greater since nobody help practice even basic stuff advice take msf beginner 's course first thing would n't even buy bike 've taken course , unless happen pick real good deal store someplace 're ready use 1 \) 1200 1300 work , would cover everything \( bike , helmet , anything else i'm ignorant know need buy \) 're waiting take course \( might take weeks dc , recall always waiting lists boston \) , could save money start right \? say 300 riding gear , plus cost bike , plus maybe 100 \( guess \) mechanic make sure machine safe \( assuming buying old beat machine private individual \) , plus insurance , plus registration licensing fees , plus course , 're looking maybe 600 including bike reserve ongoing maintenance 2 \) buying bike going insurance \? turn 18 month parents taking care insurance till , need comprehensive list costs buying motorcycle going insure \( live washington dc makes difference \) pay 100 insurance \( ny \) closer 200 boston \( urban \) decent insurance including substantial coverage liability , want unless plan always poor 'd guess dc like boston like rural area , ergo expensive 3 \) recommendations buy look \? used annual buyer 's guides usual motorcycle magazines found helpful getting idea new recent models might available could probably look past issues size used bikes might available \( first bike 13 years old bought went friend 's advice instead \) also look bikes see people riding parked street basically settled present bike noticing lot high mileage bmw 's running around generally set way wanted nothing wrong talking various dealers area visiting dealers boston area , least shopping , nice letting look around quoting prices bikes n't latest models \( hence cheaper \) , although ended buying bikes private sales david karr \( karr cs cornell edu \) '80 bmw r65 dod 0969 also bmwmoa , nra , aclu , et al
karr cs cornell edu \( david karr \) subject help ! bikes short \? organization cornell univ cs dept , ithaca ny 14853 lines 14 article 1993apr20 ncar ucar edu bean ra cgd ucar edu \( gregory bean \) writes help ! 've got friend shopping first motorcycle great ! unfortunately , needs 28 seat great far , thing 've found old unhappy looking kz440 look happier looking kz440 \? suzuki used l designation , example former boss seat couple inches lower regular , certainly cruiser david karr \( karr cs cornell edu \) '80 bmw r65 dod 0969 also bmwmoa , nra , aclu , et al
scs8 cunixb cc columbia edu \( sebastian c sears \) subject bike sale , usa keywords wicked sexist nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply scs8 cunixb cc columbia edu \( sebastian c sears \) organization columbia university lines 18 article 1993apr19 102 zorro tyngsboro us jd zorro tyngsboro us \( jeff derienzo \) writes 've recently become father twins ! n't think afford keep 2 bikes 2 babies babies staying , 1 harleys going 1988 883 4000 mi \( hey , wife 's bike \) well pretty uncalled \( smile \) harley feeling challenged \? jeff derienzo wanna sit buy drink someday temple dog sea bass sears scs8 cunixb cc columbia edu dod 516 stanley , id '79 yamaha xs750f '77 bmw r100s '85 toyota 4runner nyc , ny
scs8 cunixb cc columbia edu \( sebastian c sears \) subject msf program \? nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply scs8 cunixb cc columbia edu \( sebastian c sears \) organization columbia university distribution usa lines 10 could someone mail archive location msf program \( ibm , right \? \) \? thanks , wanna sit buy drink someday temple dog sea bass sears scs8 cunixb cc columbia edu dod 516 stanley , id '79 yamaha xs750f '77 bmw r100s '85 toyota 4runner nyc , ny
lynn pacesetter com \( lynn e hall \) subject story keywords party ! ! ! ! nntp posting host organization siemens pacesetter , inc lines 20 lynn pacesetter com \( lynn e hall \) writes allowed \( yes , god \) open containers street signs bars yeah , right ! 20 cops hand couple thousand bikers 1 block main street citing anyone street filled empty cans least 2 feet deep gutter crowd hell shows everywhere say party \? still wonder stereotype us erc mean 'we' \( ever \) want stereotype one likes drink beer watch lovely ladies display beautiful bodies like stereotype refering infer negative noticed n't rape , pillage , burn town also left mucho bucks money town thinks town likes us least said lynn hall nos bros
subject traffic morons stafford vax2 winona msus edu \( john stafford \) distribution world organization winona state university nntp posting host stafford winona msus edu lines 16 article athena cs uga edu , ahatcher athena cs uga edu \( allan hatcher \) wrote ca n't make citizens arrest anything felony i'm sure 's true let rephrase file complaint bring person court understand , citizens arrest physical detention person better \? john stafford minnesota state university winona standard disclaimers apply
frog cmhnet org \( jeff campbell \) subject bmw moa members read ! organization , inc lines 28 article murdoch acc virginia edu , cdw2t dayhoff med virginia edu \( dances federal rangers \) article 1098 rider uucp joe rider cactus org writes cdw2t dayhoff med virginia edu \( dances federal rangers \) writes i'm going buy bmw cast vote groucho thought gonna buy bmw superior power handling yes , tad price range , everyone cut finger \( \) evil \( tm \) , lurking somewhere dark recesses back end bike , giving prized moto bath \? seem slice one hand every time \( time ! \) ride safe , send old moa rags , y'all , cliff weston dod '92 seca ii thought might cool whole bike done powder coat , like maybe black neon , something brian w simmons 's beemers ec \( tm \) jeff campbell '76 r75 6 , 160 frog cmhnet org
subject shaft drives wheelies stafford vax2 winona msus edu \( john stafford \) distribution world organization winona state university nntp posting host stafford winona msus edu lines 19 article news ysu edu , ak296 yfn ysu edu \( john r daker \) wrote previous article , xlyx vax5 cit cornell edu \( \) says mike terry asks possible wheelie motorcycle shaft drive \? mike imposible due shaft effect centripital effects rotating shaft counteract tendency front wheel lift ground true popularity shaft drive drag bikes john stafford minnesota state university winona standard disclaimers apply
behanna syl nj nec com \( chris behanna \) subject cobra locks organization nec systems laboratory , inc distribution usa lines 55 article cronkite central sun com doc webrider central sun com writes posting alt best methods securing motorcycle got several responses referring cobra lock \( described \) anyone come across store carrying lock chicago area \? available dealerships , turn back order manufacturer directly one made order , least get nonstandard length \( standard 5' , believe \) feedback someone used \? see article shelley u washington edu , stein u washington edu \( david \) writes incidentally , best lock 've found bikes cobra lock 's cable shrouded articulated , hardened steel sleeve lock cylindrical locking engages joints points chain adjusted \( like \) ca n't get leverage lock break open cylinder well protected would n't want cut one without torch vice heavy duty cutting wheel 6' long cobralinks lock used use harley \( n't get much anymore , n't use lock often anymore \) made 3 4 articulated steel shells covering seven strands steel cable probably enough stop , , unfortunately , professionals open rather easily 1 \) freeze link 2 \) break frozen link favorite method \( hammers work well \) 3 \) snip steel cables \( , authority , thin \) set money , get kryptonite cable lock , anywhere 1 2 7 8 thick steel cable \( looks like steel rope \) , shielded flexible covering protect bike 's finish , barrel type locking mechanism n't know 's adjustable , source says 's difficult pick locks , cable tends squish flat bolt cutter jaws rather shear \( 5 8 model \) bets thief die cutoff wheel even durable locks tested yield tool less one minute fyi , 'll getting krypto cable next paycheck later , chris behanna dod 114 1983 h fxwg wide glide jubilee 's red lady behanna syl nj nec com 1975 cb360t baby bike disclaimer would nec 1991 zx 11 needs name agree anyway \? raised pack wild corn dogs
paulb harley tti com \( paul blumstein \) subject point helmet law point mc b nntp posting host harley tti com organization black belt motorcyclists association lines 22 article 5967 prcrs prc com terry prcrs prc com \( terry cunningham \) writes know law , either books proposed , bans motorcycles place want go many private places ban bikes example , famous 17 mile drive peninsula stayed resorts motorcycles allowed sign entrance public places call ama ask jim \( sp \? \) one else legislative office many public places bring court reverse ban bikes includes everything public parks full cities probably fights books speak another good reason donate legislative fund death life 's way telling 've fired r paul blumstein , paulb harley tti com , dod 36 , abate , ama , hog , doh 2 kd6laa , marc , arrl , platypus 240 , qrp arpci , naswa , lwca , rcma \( cala905 \) transaction technology , inc , santa monica , ca
bnr ca \( stephane \) subject cobra locks reply bnr ca \( stephane \) organization bell northern research ltd lines 105 may find useful \( repost original sender bottom \) cut article rec motorcycles path ! ! ! news utdallas edu ! hermes chpc utexas edu ! cs edu ! ! mips ! pacbell com ! gw com ! ! eff ! ibmpc ! pipex ! unipalm ! uknet ! cf cm ! ! uucp \( harvey \) newsgroups rec motorcycles subject best way lock bike \? message id 861 uucp date 15 jul 92 09 47 10 gmt references usenet ins cwru edu lines 84 figures performance bikes lock test , taken without permission course price comparison cable locks sort armour , chain locks chain lock tested maximum ten minutes \( 600 secs \) test bj bottle jack cd cutting disc bc bolt gas gas flame table really split \( \) lock somethings \( short \) make comparisons type weight bj cd bc gas total price \( kg \) \( sec \) \( sec \) \( sec \) \( sec \) \( sec \) \( pounds \) 3 arm folding 8 53 5 13 18 89 26 cyclelok bar abus steel cable 1 4 103 4 20 26 153 54 flex oxford cable 2 0 360 4 32 82 478 38 revolver abus chain 2 8 600 7 40 26 675 77 6 arm folding 1 8 44 10 600 22 676 51 cyclelok bar abus extra u lock 1 2 600 10 120 52 782 44 cobra cable 6 0 \( ! \) 382 10 600 22 150 \( \) abus closed chain 4 0 600 11 600 33 1244 100 kryptonite u lock 2 5 600 22 600 27 1249 100 oxford u lock 2 0 600 7 600 49 38 magnum disc 7 n 44 n 38 43 lock abus u lock 2 5 600 26 600 64 1290 100 mini block disc 65 n 51 n 84 50 lock pretty depressing reading think good lock common sense park bike answer 've spent spare time last two weeks \( trashing \) garden \( two friends bikes \) new house accommodate three bikes relative security \( never underestimate much room bike requires area \( \) anyway , since weekend two bikes \( , n't use abus closed lock , much hassle take visiting parents minimum wait 8 weeks \( n't decide investigate \) insurance company make offer real haggling begin abus german company would seem well represented us common uk uk distributor , given article michael brandon ltd , 15 17 oliver crescent , , 9bj tel uk distributors locks also given required n't lose ian ian harvey , university college old uk ac swan pyr young die '79
clarke bdrc bd com \( richard clarke \) subject countersteering sans hands organization becton dickinson research center r p nc usa lines 7 nntp posting host bdrc bd com steer hands n't bars \? \( open budweiser left hand , camel cigarette right , feet allowed \) lean , bike turns , countersteering \? countersteering like taller seat , feet n't floor \? rick
pstone well sf ca us \( philip k stone \) subject shaft drives wheelies nntp posting host well sf ca us organization whole earth 'lectronic link distribution rec lines 16 article 1993apr19 vax5 cit cornell edu xlyx vax5 cit cornell edu writes possible wheelie motorcycle shaft drive \? mike terry least , 's told nasa rent cop stopped swore lifting n't completely buy part water carbs , either phil stone new address pstone well sf ca us '83 motorcycles ok
scs8 cunixb cc columbia edu \( sebastian c sears \) subject route suggestions \? nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply scs8 cunixb cc columbia edu \( sebastian c sears \) organization columbia university distribution usa lines 27 article 1993apr20 porthos cc bellcore com pyuxe cc bellcore com \( corrado , mitchell \) writes article cronkite central sun com , doc webrider central sun com \( steve bunis chicago \) writes 81 point route presently undetermined pennsylvania , new york \? , back chicago \( 6 6 \) suggestions make new york state , interstate parkway pleasant ride \( beautiful scenery , good road surface , minimal traffic \) since hit pip \? pavement \( least around exit 9 \) sh days think must taken beating winter , n't remember bad 's breaking apart , serious potholes course also storm lane opposed side road \( talk annoying cost saving measures \) traffic , n't try around 5 15 6 30 weekdays \( outbound , rush hour happens \) many bdc 's ' mitch corrado dec panther bellcore com wanna sit buy drink someday temple dog sea bass sears scs8 cunixb cc columbia edu dod 516 stanley , id '79 yamaha xs750f '77 bmw r100s '85 toyota 4runner nyc , ny
parr acs ucalgary ca \( charles parr \) subject hell mets nntp posting host acs3 acs ucalgary ca organization university calgary , alberta lines 56 article mavenry altcit eskimo com maven mavenry altcit eskimo com \( norman hamer \) writes talked couple people helmets dropping , i'm getting 20 n't sweat , 78 might think replacing 2 ride ! go without helmet first ! way tell helmet damaged structurally \? dropped 2 1 2 feet cement seat , chipped paint n't seem screw actual shell 'd bet price helmet 's okay 6 feet higher , maybe n't end replacing real near future , would better wear \( totally \) 3 4 face dot rated cheapie n't fit well keep wind well , wearing shoei rf 200 lot comfortable , keeps wind better , quieter might minor damage \? 'd wear full , , 'd way worried wind blast face , inability hear police , helmet little damaged also , would far good helmets \? i'm slightly disappointed badly shoei scratched etc bloody careful , little impact took chip paint \( arguably mess , period \) looking really good full face good venting wind protection like shoei style , kinda like norton one saw awhile back suspect i'm going get much expensive helmet want replace every time i'm careful set well , next helmet , subject fitting well , 's like looks current one shoei , 's getting little old , crashed couple years ago \( hard impact head hip took care \) price consideration 'd get kiwi , hear good cheap christ , n't treat head carefully treated shoei far tossing , n't bruises mildly mildly paranoid helmet , n't get carried away people net \( like 2 mentioned \) consistently live planet regards , charles dod0 001 rz350 within span last weeks heard elements separate threads , conjoined time , struck together form new chord within hollow echoing gourd unknown net person
jlevine rd hydro ca \( jody levine \) subject countersteering faq please post organization ontario hydro research division lines 37 article 1993apr19 227 cs cornell edu karr cs cornell edu \( david karr \) writes article mjs zen sys uea ac uk mjs sys uea ac uk \( mike sixsmith \) writes ! ! saying n't even need tell people technique countersteering , cos intuitively first time try go round corner , others steer n't know much teaching countersteering beginner course really helps one , guess always bicycle way , got hang countersteering normal riding course could countersteering course problem , started using normal riding decided turning speed \( ramps like \) lot difficult knew works \( although 's currently debate \) definitely knew works , could , figured later normal riding data point think 's bad idea bring idea , 's best let everyone steer first lesson two , learn shift gears worry proper handlebar technique countersteering fact , experienced rider course instructors claimed could get behind new rider make bike turn whichever side wanted shifting weight around , even operator trying turn opposite direction \( admit 've never actually seen \) beginner course passenger training sometime lesson instructor would hop back bike , student would take ride student give instructor sack potatoes passenger speech , instructor would steer bike make general nuisance amusing watch , i'm happy n't happen 've bike like jody levine dod 275 kv got pf jody p levine hydro ca ride toronto , ontario , canada
jlevine rd hydro ca \( jody levine \) subject question helmets organization ontario hydro research division lines 22 article mojo eng umd edu oconnor eng umd edu \( mark o'connor \) writes side fence , owned road helmet took would consider minor fall , visible damage shell yes , helmet job damage impact ratio scary bell moto 5 , taken impacts order twice impact \( frequently mx \) , n't even scratch two seasons recommendation buy high quality gear ymmv hits object , four things dissipate energy object , helmet shell , helmet liner , rider 's head , rider 's ego \( ok , five \) assuming helmet head assembly takes impact , shell cracks one case , liner must dented , head gets 's liner 's dented , helmet toast shell cracked , wo n't absorb energy form impact area 's head 's getting , maybe new gear n't high quality \? 've bike like jody levine dod 275 kv got pf jody p levine hydro ca ride toronto , ontario , canada
jlevine rd hydro ca \( jody levine \) subject ok , little hasty organization ontario hydro research division lines 17 article speedy 155 engr latech edu speedy engr latech edu \( speedy mercer \) writes article jnmoyne 190493111630 moustic lbl gov jnmoyne lbl gov \( jean noel moyne \) writes ok , hold second clarify something dwi stand \? thought dui driving influence , w stand \? driving intoxicated changed louisiana girl went court case claiming stoned pot , intoxicated liquor ! 's driving impaired covers everything 've bike like jody levine dod 275 kv got pf jody p levine hydro ca ride toronto , ontario , canada
jlevine rd hydro ca \( jody levine \) subject wanted advice new cylist organization ontario hydro research division lines 18 article srgenprp sr hp com blaisec sr hp com \( blaise cirelli \) writes i'm thinking buying motorcycle whenever tell people usually get answer like want brother , sister , cousin knows somebody motorcycle brain dead result accident \? question dangerous riding \? 's exactly dangerous looks 're hard see little protection keeping trouble means knowing limits , keeping machine good shape able predict make every stupid move drivers make deal 's fun , staying alive takes conscious effort 've bike like jody levine dod 275 kv got pf jody p levine hydro ca ride toronto , ontario , canada
parr acs ucalgary ca \( charles parr \) subject insurance lotsa points nntp posting host acs3 acs ucalgary ca organization university calgary , alberta lines 39 article 1993apr18 bnr ca keithh bnr ca \( keith hanlan \) writes article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu \( andrew infante \) writes well , looks like i'm f cked insurance dwi 91 beemer , rec vehicle , 'll cost almost 1200 bucks insure year \? sell bike car start taking bus way keep drinking seems priorities lay expect enough us list lost friends driving drunks collective sympathy somewhat look , guy , doubt anyone approves drunk driving , 's caught convicted punished maybe ought lighten \? mean , n't like us n't ridden driven home n't get caught speak say never happen , beside point answer original poster 'd insure whatever vehicle cheapest , get work , suffer years , til rates drop n't drink drive one friend killed drunk , rear ended one , bike \( bent frame \) , failing kill eye mirror waited regards , charles dod0 001 rz350 within span last weeks heard elements separate threads , conjoined time , struck together form new chord within hollow echoing gourd unknown net person
parr acs ucalgary ca \( charles parr \) subject dogs nntp posting host acs3 acs ucalgary ca organization university calgary , alberta lines 26 article c5pntm 8co cbnewsj cb att com car377 cbnewsj cb att com \( charles rogers \) writes tactic depends effectiveness dog 's conformance psychological norm may actually apply particular dog 've tried success , wo n't work charlie manson dog one 's really , really stupid large irish setter taught yard \( apparently territory \) one day i'm sure playing game game probably kill angry neighbor dispense terrible punishment , dog weighs 150lb maybe , max \? ca n't handle \? , presume , thumbs \? grapple tear 's head ! sheesh , even trained attack dog match human , advantages regards , charles dod0 001 rz350 within span last weeks heard elements separate threads , conjoined time , struck together form new chord within hollow echoing gourd unknown net person
brown venus iucf indiana edu \( robert j brown \) subject shaft drives wheelies news software vax vms vnews 1 3 4 nntp posting host venus iucf indiana edu reply brown venus iucf indiana edu organization iucf distribution rec lines 29 article stafford stafford winona msus edu , stafford vax2 winona msus edu \( john stafford \) writes 19 apr 93 21 48 42 gmt , xlyx vax5 cit cornell edu said possible wheelie motorcycle shaft drive \? yes , rear wheel comes ground , front see , hops air ! figure john stafford sure wheelies shaft drive bike bmw r100rs wheelie monster ! course n't initial power burst twist air pop clutch also replace front fork seals times well fairing bit heavy slamming onto little tubes time let give fair warning trashed ring gear final drive k75 \( assume \) wheelies cheap fix either ! ! kind slip device shaft prevent breaking unfortunately , n't save gears ! topic wheelies , day saw kid big hurricane \( \? \) , rear wheelie man , rear end bike 2 feet ground traffic light n't recommend activities anymore \( i'm old guy kids \) looked damn impressive ! ! ca n't keep tires ground , least 'em pointed direction ! \) cheers , b 2
svoboda rtsg mot com \( david svoboda \) subject insurance lotsa points nntp posting host corolla18 organization motorola inc , cellular infrastructure group lines 17 article 1993apr19 iscnvx lmsc lockheed com jrlaf sgi502 msd lmsc lockheed com \( j r laferriere \) writes keith , calm \? point andrew infante 's posting obvious solicit suggestions pertaining cost insurance like n't care whatever keep , 'd appreciate well , simply put , drinking driving drunk large , , attitude like , expect 'll dead soon hope n't take human dave svoboda \( svoboda void rtsg mot com \) i'm getting tired 90 concours 1000 \( mmmmmmmmmm ! \) beating , dave 84 rz 350 \( ring ding \) \( woops ! \) never learn ama 583905 dod 0330 cog 939 \( chicago \) beth bruiser dixon
eng tridom com \( alan fleming \) subject new motorcycles nntp posting host tigger eng tridom com reply eng tridom com \( alan fleming \) organization tridom , engineering lines 22 article 1993apr20 adobe com , cjackson adobe com \( curtis jackson \) writes article 1993apr20 alw nih gov gregh niagara dcrt nih gov \( gregory humphreys \) writes 1 \) 1200 1300 work , would cover everything \( bike , helmet , anything else i'm ignorant know need buy \) following numbers approximate , doubt get flamed helmet \( new , cheap \) 100 jacket \( used cheap \) 100 gloves \( nothing special \) 20 motorcycle safety foundation riding course \( must ! \) 140 wow ! courses georgia much cheaper 85 list looks good , 'd also add heavy boots \( work , hiking , combat , similar \) 45 think peace alan \( eng tridom com \) \( 1988 \) ama dod pgp key available
christine hogan andrew cmu edu subject strange experience organization university libraries library , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 20 nntp posting host po4 andrew cmu edu hi nice yesterday , rode bike appointment came exam , noticed helmet sitting chair got excited picked started asking sorts questions bikes dealers area msf course apparently rode friends 125 years ago recently bug ride caught needless say , never talked bikes much position , ya know mean chris hogan andrew cmu edu cb 1 soft massacre suns evening 's sabres slain dickinson
mbeaving bnr ca \( michael beavington \) subject good reasons wave nntp posting host bmerh824 reply mbeaving bnr ca organization bnr ottawa , dms software design lines 25 article mavenry altcit eskimo com , maven mavenry altcit eskimo com \( norman hamer \) writes one morning , getting coffee thoughts waving bikers makes sense hey , 's going , nice meet road , good ride 1 \) 're watching bikes wave , means attention road , , 're likely see cages 2 \) keeps habit watching really carefully bikes 're cage good thing side i'm cage , numerous occasions slammed hand rolled window effort wave passing biker ow beav mike beavington ottawa , ont , canada dod 9733 seca 400 seca 400 rz350 v65sabre \( 1994 gts1000 ca n't afford '93 \) mbeaving bnr ca parking spaces \? n't need parking spaces !
harley request thinkage ca \( harley mailing list digest \) subject harley davidson mailing list email taste sensation ! summary sort bi monthly really automated announcement originator hog thinkage ca keywords digests , lists , harley davidson , supersedes hog announce hog thinkage ca organization thinkage ltd expires fri , 30 apr 1993 11 00 00 gmt lines 36 anyone interesting mailing list harley davidson bikes , lifestyle , politics , h g whatever 310 members 14 countries make , may subscribe sending request harley request thinkage ca uunet ca ! thinkage ! harley request request join signature something giving full email address rely header field useful automated listserv facility expect instant gratification list digest format scheduled twice day members harley list may obtain back issues subject index listings , pictures , etc via email archive server server access restricted list subscribers ftp access real soon motorcycle related lists 've heard \( run \) , addresses may may current 2 stroke request microunity com dirt dirt request ati com european listserv isc br com racing race request corp sun com digest request corp sun com short riding short request smarmy sun com wet leather listserv isc br com hills like 'cause honda 's built really light brian wilson \( honda honda \)
heathman ncsa uiuc edu \( michael heathman \) subject dogs originator heathman ncsa uiuc edu organization nat'l ctr app \( ncsa \) university illinois lines 31 article 93apr20 193958 30419 acs ucalgary ca parr acs ucalgary ca \( charles parr \) writes , dog weighs 150lb maybe , max \? ca n't handle \? , presume , thumbs \? grapple tear 's head ! sheesh , even trained attack dog match human , advantages regards , charles dod0 001 rz350 professionals train guard dogs , polled , gave 1 4 chance survival tackling trained dog unarmed trained guard dog untrained may another story obmoto local dog used chase time really annoying finally started stopping every time 'd chase n't know would usually road couple weeks stopped chasing altogether would still chase cars bikes , though think recognized went \) mike heathman rose dod lilly research titan \( awaiting resurrection \) indianapolis , go , 've gone far \?
slack sim es com \( pete \) subject need parts info 1963 scooter organization evans sutherland computer corporation lines 15 nntp posting host slack posted friend looking tires , dimensions 14 x 3 25 3 35 also looking brakes info existing shoes also owners anywhere contact call scott 801 583 1354 email saw thousand together round building disclaimer writings nothing employer keep way pete slack sim es com salt lake city , utah
wam umd edu \( romeo \) subject new motorcycles nntp posting host wam umd edu organization workstations maryland , university maryland , college park lines 10 motorcycle safety foundation riding course \( must ! \) 140 wow ! courses georgia much cheaper 85 maryland , 25 learned ride 3 years ago , 's 125 \( ! \) beginner course 60 experienced course \( , admittedly , takes half time \)
dab vuse vanderbilt edu \( david braun \) subject wrecked bmw originator dab necs nntp posting host necs organization vanderbilt university school engineering , nashville , tn , usa distribution na lines 13 anyone know wrecked 1981 later r80 \( anything \) r100 \( anything \) interested getting rid \? need motor , buy whole bike email replies david braun ftcollinsco ncr com dab vuse vanderbilt edu phone 303 223 5100 \( voice mail \) 303 229 \( home \)
dana lando la locus com \( dana h myers \) subject squid \? \( riceburner respect \) organization locus computing corporation , los angeles , california lines 16 article c5qqxp ie1 cbmvax cbm commodore com hartzler cbmvax cbm commodore com \( jerry hartzler cats \) writes article 1993apr15 192558 3314 icomsim com mmanning icomsim com \( michael manning \) writes duck squids n't wave , return waves ever , even excuse ignoramus , squids everybody chris behanna especially squid dana h myers views expressed \( 310 \) 337 5136 mine necessarily dana locus com dod 466 reflect employer extra supports abolition 13 20 tests
ryan cousineau compdyn questor org \( ryan cousineau \) subject put helmet reply ryan cousineau compdyn questor org \( ryan cousineau \) distribution world organization computer dynamics vancouver b c \( 604 \) 986 9937 \( 604 \) 255 9937 lines 46 cb behanna syl nj nec com \( chris behanna \) cb maven mavenry altcit eskimo com \( norman hamer \) writes cb cb grf dropped shoei rf 200 seat bike trying cb rock cb onto 's centerstand , chipped heck paint cb one say \? cb stupid leave helmet seat cb fall go boom ! cb helmets go ground , table , chair , shelf , cb surface large enough support cb easily knocked another good place helmet mirror \( ! \) kid typical standard bike fairly average mirrors screw handlebars , helmet fit mirror fairly stable doubt mention , trick n't quite smart goldwing , , gsxr , bike fairing mounted mirrors little surprised , though , find helmet seat bike usually leave helmet bike parked , reason would n't want helmet surface start ryan cousinetc 1982 yamaha vision xz550 black pig inverness live ride kotrb 1958 ajs 500 c king rat work dod 0863 'd squid could afford bike flame ryan cousineau compdyn questor org vancouver , bc , canada live saw quote pair race replica leathers think sort phrase typically known slmr 2 1a drive rash magnificently leathers computer dynamics bbs 604 255 9937 \( hst \) 604 986 9937 \( v32 \) vancouver , bc , canada easy access , low rates , friendly sysop
ryan cousineau compdyn questor org \( ryan cousineau \) subject spagthorpe viking reply ryan cousineau compdyn questor org \( ryan cousineau \) distribution world organization computer dynamics vancouver b c \( 604 \) 986 9937 \( 604 \) 255 9937 lines 103 ds viking iastate edu \( dan sorenson \) ds ryan cousineau compdyn questor org \( ryan cousineau \) writes ds riding hill leading ds house , encountered liver white springer spaniel \( relation ds springer softail , springer spagthorpe , close relation ds spagthorpe viking \) ds must missed article spagthorpe viking ds one little illuminated dragon 's head front ds fender , style later copied indian , round side covers \? viking trick little unit made way back \( forties \? fifties \? \) trying make go racing first \( springer \) boxer twin , similar max 's famous design , overhead point cam \( see \) problem thing ground clearance whatsoever solution curve cylinder , ground clearance substantially increased springer motor \( front \) viking motor \( front \) roughly idea , except gradually curved around radius , pistons make sharp turn middle stroke engine also curved connecting rods accomodate stroke engine stuck far revolutionary \( still unique \) overhead cam system use clever valve timing trick valve linkage , single cam lobe required drive overhead valves revolutionary hydraulic valve , used pressurized stream oil power kept lobe spinning one side effect required rather brutal engineering fixes engine 's oil pressure came normal , engine 's valve timing would less random , resulting impressive start valve damage solution little hand crank pressurized cases started beast , remarkably similar system used new porsches oil system car started \( cage , however , uses electric oil pump \) despite fix , engine nasty propensity firing valves pistons cylinder would temporarily lose bit oil pressure corner solution run even higher oil pressures change gaskets seals regularly feasible racing engine single overhead lobe , shaft chain towers hydraulic system , head engine came almost perfect point \( \) lobe xx complex linkage \( shown due complexity \) 0 piston note tip truly vertical \( 70 degree angle ground , drawing n't show curvature none head bore curve would start cylinder bore disappears diagram effect pointy heads top pair gently \( pundits day even said \) curved cylinders much like pair viking horns poking beneath gas tank thus , name moderately successful racer , lightning fast worked , plagued problems relating revolutionary technology eventually , dumped finally realized racing spagthorpe name would made machines raced another year two , fate \( approximately six made , plus one possibly two confusing issue one old swears machine production , many twenty thirty machines may come line however , modern record production viking survived , motorcycle historians discount story ryan cousinetc 1982 yamaha vision xz550 black pig inverness live ride kotrb 1958 ajs 500 c king rat work dod 0863 'd squid could afford bike flame ryan cousineau compdyn questor org vancouver , bc , canada live slmr 2 1a n't sliding , n't riding computer dynamics bbs 604 255 9937 \( hst \) 604 986 9937 \( v32 \) vancouver , bc , canada easy access , low rates , friendly sysop
robinson cogsci berkeley edu \( michael robinson \) subject krypto cables \( cobra locks \) organization institute cognitive studies , u c berkeley lines 51 distribution usa nntp posting host cogsci berkeley edu article 1993apr20 research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com \( chris behanna \) writes money , get kryptonite cable lock , anywhere 1 2 7 8 thick steel cable \( looks like steel rope \) , shielded flexible covering protect bike 's finish , barrel type locking mechanism n't know 's adjustable , source says 's difficult pick locks , cable tends squish flat bolt cutter jaws rather shear \( 5 8 model \) fyi , 'll getting krypto cable next paycheck word warning , though kryptonite also sells almost useless cable locks kryptonite name obtained second motorcycle , migrated one kryptonite u locks bicycle new bike went shopping new lock bicycle money \( 20 \) choice kryptonite cable lock \( advantages lock front back wheels bicycle keep , kryptonite name \) cheesy name u lock \( advantages real steel \) chose kryptonite cable less week , took back disgust exchanged cheesy name u lock first , krypto cable bought made kryptonite , covered kryptonite guarantee , n't even approach kryptonite standards quality quality assurance generic made taiwan cable lock kryptonite name secondly , latch engagement mechanism something joke n't know mine particularly poor example , often quite frustrating get latch positively engage , sometimes would seem engage , fall open went unlock thirdly , lock little plastic door serves sole purpose frustrating attempt insert key dark n't try \( obviously \) , doubts lock mechanism would stand insert screwdriver torque attack , cable , opinion , sufficient thickness deter theft \( piece crap bicycle , \) cables suffer weakness cut strands time patient cut cables fingernail clippers aviation would go cable well minute michael robinson uucp ucbvax ! cogsci ! robinson internet robinson cogsci berkeley edu
fmg bt co uk \( pete young \) subject johs dhhalden \( 3 \) last organization british telecom x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 lines 23 nick pettefar \( npet bnr ca \) wrote tsk , tsk , tsk another newbie bites dust , eh \? 'll learn newbie sorry disappoint , far internet goes baghdad still bag people made group interesting 3 4 years ago longer around time make random sweep week hence missed thread based previous postings , apparently devoid humour , sarcasm , wit , apparent capacity walk chew gum time , assumed serious mea culpa still , 's nice see bnr well afford contractors sit read news day pete young fmg bt co uk phone 44 473 people prefer entertaining nonsense reality
laszlo eclipse cs colorado edu \( laszlo nemeth \) subject bmw moa members read ! nntp posting host eclipse cs colorado edu organization university colorado boulder , pizza disposal group lines 27 article 1993apr19 cmhnet org , frog cmhnet org \( jeff campbell \) writes article murdoch acc virginia edu , cdw2t dayhoff med virginia edu \( dances federal rangers \) , everyone cut finger \( \) evil \( tm \) , lurking somewhere dark recesses back end bike , giving prized moto bath \? seem slice one hand every time \( time ! \) 's beemers ec \( tm \) oh yes ! considering never wash bmw \( unless need work \) never get cuts untill tools come best scar \( faded \) exhaust piper , try change oil , engine \( watch idiot drivers wo n't let pass mountains rider , case oil \( sale \) , case beer \) , drain bolt decided seize everyone else clean area transmission bmw r bike \? way found remove engine transmission clutch arm impossible clean \( wear one ec \( \) located \) laz ps anyone know get heads polished ported cheap also much run
fields cis ohio state edu \( jonathan david fields \) subject question \? \? \? \? organization ohio state university dept computer info science lines 8 distribution usa nntp posting host frigate cis ohio state edu probably stupid question new motorcycle scene n't really know anything dod \? thanks , jonathan fields fields cis ohio state edu
jjb dtc hp com \( jim brewer \) subject uh , der , whassa deltabox \? nntp posting host dtc hp com organization hp design technology center , santa clara , ca lines 6 article ccu umanitoba ca klinger ccu umanitoba ca \( jorg klinger \) writes beleive 's called frame nothing paint wo n't fix someone riding gsxr \?
rwert well sf ca us \( bob wert \) subject need advice riding someone pillion summary advice wanted take someone back moto keywords advice , pillion , help ! nntp posting host well sf ca us organization whole earth 'lectronic link distribution na lines 22 need advice someone ride pillion 750 ninja first time 've taken anyone extended ride \( read farther around block \) 'll riding twisty , fairly bumpy roads \( mines road mt hamilton loop sf bay areans \) person 100 lbs fairly small , n't see weight much problem , sort advice give go \? want hold onto \) rather grab rail back , 've heard look shoulder direction 're turning leans , else \? traditional signals slow ! ! go faster ! ! hafta go pee ! ! etc \? \? \? really want positive experience us , mainly 'll want go , help appreciated thanks , bob bob wert rmw genie gene com rwert well sf ca us dod ama '90 ninja '89 mustang 5 seven turns highway , seven rivers cross , sometimes feel like fly away , sometimes get lost
nuet ke pts mot com \( keith nuetzman x3153 p7625 \) subject yamaha vs honda opinions nntp posting host 145 4 54 110 reply nuet ke pts mot com organization paging wireless data group lines 8 hte market new bike \( without years \) two main bikes i'm looking seriously yamaha virago 535 honda shadow 583 leaning towards yamaha shaft drive , honda chain insurance fla costly thought , staying power range thanks advance opinions experiences
mbeaving bnr ca \( michael beavington \) subject opinion means nntp posting host bmerh824 reply mbeaving bnr ca organization bnr lines 16 , take advice whining flames brains ca n't spell either edu \? \? hope 're student duke would wasting tuition beav mike beavington dod 9733 v65sabre mbeaving bnr ca employer idea i'm talking !
svoboda rtsg mot com \( david svoboda \) subject opinion means nntp posting host corolla18 organization motorola inc , cellular infrastructure group lines 44 article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu \( andrew infante \) writes well , aptly put , get road , jerk , n't wanna hear whining fine fuck noticed , 91 , two years ago , yes , 've learned , 's cost yes , 've known people \( friends relatives \) 've involved drunk related accidents \( , hit \) cousin still recovering , ca n't take back happened yes , stupid , reminding time , 're neither helping , stuff opinion hey , man , brought agree completely , driving drunk really stupid , understand appreciate feel bad dwi endemic society real problem , motorcyclists , worst vulnerable positions around drunk driver \( alert readers might remember last year witnessed dwi accident \( right bloody front \) , unable save life one participants , reported \) also , drunk driving motorcyclists prime cause injury death , raises insurance rates , forces stupidly restrictive laws , turns public us ride view , drunk driving carry mandatory prison sentence one traffic offenses public funds issue , genuine safety issue bring subject rec moto , admitting caught dwi , looking sympathy consequences , n't expect people respond warm wishes dave svoboda \( svoboda void rtsg mot com \) i'm getting tired 90 concours 1000 \( mmmmmmmmmm ! \) beating , dave 84 rz 350 \( ring ding \) \( woops ! \) never learn ama 583905 dod 0330 cog 939 \( chicago \) beth bruiser dixon
stefan \( stefan fielding \) subject distribution rec organization gain technology , palo alto , ca lines 111 nntp posting host gain com greetings fellow motorcycle roadracing enthusiasts ! background racing listserver \( boogie ebay sun com \) contains discussions devoted racing racing related topics pretty broad interest group individuals variety backgrounds , roadracing perspective pit crew racers , engineering , enthusiasts size list grows weekly currently little one hundred eighty five members , contributors new zealand , australia , germany , france , england , canada finland , switzerland , united states list formed \( october 1991 \) response perceived need provide technical discussion riding edge performance \( roadracing \) improve low signal noise ratio found rec motorcycles anyone free join discussion necessarily limited rules list issues related racing motorcycles flame free get daily distribution welcome subscribe subscribe send request race request boogie ebay sun com traffic currently runs five twenty five messages per day \( depending topic \) nb please send subscription request list directly contacted list administrator , receive rsvp request please respond request timely manner added list request generated order insure valid mail pathway site upon receipt rsvp , added either daily digest distribution \( per initial request \) get digest distribution possible receive list form \( ie single email message \) roadracing digest mailed whenever contains enough interesting content given frequency postings appears every day wish receive list via digest \( every 30 40k \) , please send subscription request digest request boogie ebay sun com post list open forum post article list , send race boogie ebay sun com depending mail set site may may see mail posted want see \( though n't necessarily guarantee went \) include line mailrc file \( unix based mail systems \) bounces n't time \( inclination replace list distribution mechanism \) still problem bounces returning poster message occasionally , sites users go line \( either leaving place employment prematurely hardware problems \) receive bounces race list check headers carefully , find bounce originated sun \( whence administer list \) contact administration hat \( race request boogie ebay sun com \) , ignore bounce lists two strokes microunity com harleys harley request thinkage ca uunet ! watmath ! thinkage ! harley request european bikes onion rain com \( body message write subscribe euro moto \) thanks , seeing , rich \( race list administrator \) rich boogie ebay sun com stefan fielding 415 822 office fax dba art science books design 415 599 voice pager ama ccs 14 currently providing consulting writing services gain technology , verity
groh nu cs fsu edu \( jim groh \) subject kreme organization florida state university computer science department reply groh nu cs fsu edu distribution rec lines 18 article 1993apr14 vax5 cit cornell edu na4 vax5 cit cornell edu writes hi folks ! recently saw one post kreme bad idea , one man 's opinion one else experience stuff \? 59 sporty leaks open back seam kreme year ago problems real careful cleaning part solution hell paint jim jim groh groh sig cs fsu edu dod hog new improved 1959 xlh 900 1982 1989 xlh 883 1990 xlh 1200 smaller sig
klinger ccu umanitoba ca \( jorg klinger \) subject riceburner respect nntp posting host ccu umanitoba ca organization university manitoba , winnipeg , canada lines 28 1993apr15 192558 3314 icomsim com mmanning icomsim com \( michael manning \) writes article cellar org craig cellar org \( saint craig \) writes shz mare att com \( keeper 'tude \) writes people wave return wave i'm harley harley riders seldom wave back i'm duck squids n't wave , return waves ever , even , tell take hand bars fall ! jorg klinger gsxr1100 new arch eng services lost horizons cr500 think umanitoba , man ca embalmer it175 anonymous squidonk
klinger ccu umanitoba ca \( jorg klinger \) subject uh , der , whassa deltabox \? nntp posting host ccu umanitoba ca organization university manitoba , winnipeg , canada lines 24 ramarren apple com ramarren apple com \( godfrey digiorgi \) writes someone tell deltabox frame , relation , , frame hawk gt \? way , next time guy comes parking lot sez hey , dude , nice bike , deltabox frame \? say something besides duh , er , huh \? beleive 's called frame nothing paint wo n't fix jorg klinger gsxr1100 new arch eng services lost horizons cr500 think umanitoba , man ca embalmer it175 anonymous squidonk
ncsa uiuc edu \( von welch \) subject motorcycle detailing tip 18 organization nat'l ctr app \( ncsa \) university illinois lines 22 article 1993apr15 hemlock cray com , ant palm21 cray com \( tony jones \) writes someone letting know motorcycle detailing tip 19 \? far side instrument panel scuffed previous owner dumped bike true one turn signals scuffed areas black plastic recall reading somewhere , plastic compound could coat scuffed areas , rub , ending nice smooth shiny finish \? may '93 motorcyclist \( pg 15 16 \) , someone writes using von welch \( ncsa uiuc edu \) ncsa networking development group '93 cbr600f2 '78 kz650 '83 subaru gl 4wd speak think exactly like
egreen east sun com \( ed green pixel cruncher \) subject countersteering faq please post organization sun microsystems , rtp , nc lines 26 distribution world reply egreen east sun com nntp posting host laser east sun com article well sf ca us , pstone well sf ca us \( philip k stone \) writes hey ed , explain fact pull horse 's reins left go left \? \) confusing two threads \? three , actually believe discussed countersteering horse basically , two ways steer horse , plow rein neck rein plow reining steers keeping reins separate , pull direction wish go neck reining steers horse holding reins together one hand , pulling horse 's neck direction wish go training plow steering horse neck rein , one technique cross reins necks thus , neck reining left , right rein pulls right side neck , left side bit \( horse used plow reining days \) sorry asked yet \? ed green , former ninjaite drinking last night biker , ed green east sun com showed picture said , dod 0111 \( 919 \) 460 8302 go , get know , 'll like ! \( grateful dead \) seemed like least could
egreen east sun com \( ed green pixel cruncher \) subject observation helmets organization sun microsystems , rtp , nc lines 12 distribution world reply egreen east sun com nntp posting host laser east sun com article u washington edu , moseley u washington edu \( steve l moseley \) writes carry want comply intelligent helmet laws \? take residence fantasy world ed green , former ninjaite drinking last night biker , ed green east sun com showed picture said , dod 0111 \( 919 \) 460 8302 go , get know , 'll like ! \( grateful dead \) seemed like least could
fist iscp bellcore com \( richard pierson \) subject moving nntp posting host foxtrot iscp bellcore com organization bellcore distribution usa lines 25 well , 's fun last day bellcore net access \( taking time scheduling military schools summer joint operations , anything else looks good \) blast reading , responding commenting things posted final say 9mm 's inferior 45 's oh wrong news group hopefully 'll back guess internet withdrawl starts around considering never knew inet existed 2 years ago really going miss oh yea , guy called morning military issue boots , good luck , think happy boots two types ships navy submarines targets ! ! ! 1 xs1100lh dod 956 2 next raise richard pierson e06584 vnet 908 699 6063 internet fist iscp bellcore com , uunet uunet ! bcr ! fist include std disclaimer opinions ! ! ! n't shop malls , buy jeans , jackets ammo store
jpolito sysgem1 encore com \( jonathan polito \) subject aerostitch 1 2 piece \? organization encore computer corp distribution rec reply na4 vax5 cit cornell edu 's message 14 apr 93 14 40 15 est nntp posting host sysgem1 encore com lines 41 article 1993apr14 vax5 cit cornell edu na4 vax5 cit cornell edu writes request opinions better one piece aerostitch two piece aerostitch \? 're looking well , 2 pc versatile , 1 pc better protection , thanks advance , best \? books written ! regard aerostich really depends particular size , shape needs upper lower body proportional \( according aero dimensions \) probably going better mixing matching 2 piece suit 2 piece suit happy life quota scars crashing road , concerned good protection believe difference protection 1 2 piece suits almost negligible think optional hip pads back protector make much difference one thing nice 2 piece go somewhere want walk around \( still jacket \) detach stow pants one thing note problems getting good fit many women \( standard suits \) supposedly smaller women \( men matter \) 1 piece fit better another recommendation pay mods need wish got 2 3 inches added legs find long suits really long \( ca n't imagine short standard suits must \) jonathan e polito internet jpolito encore com encore computer corp , 901 farm rd , cary , nc usa 919 481 3730 voice 919 481 fax
egreen east sun com \( ed green pixel cruncher \) subject ggrrrrrr ! ! cages double parking motorc organization sun microsystems , rtp , nc lines 32 distribution world reply egreen east sun com nntp posting host laser east sun com article 1 cs cmu edu , jfriedl ri cmu edu \( jeffrey \) writes egreen east sun com \( ed green pixel cruncher \) writes apartment complex used live tried , put thing driver 's window , could n't miss see liability putting stickers car moving , something , 's bdi chooses start drive car known unsafe condition would \( seem \) liable effort made remove sticker came pieces , leaving firmly attached window dark , around 10 00 pm sticker \( mangled ineffective attempt torn \) warned car would towed removed reasonable person would arguably driven car accident occured , n't think friend 's attorney would much trouble fixing blame apartment practical matter , even without conviction , cost inconvenience defending suit would considerable moral matter , pretty fucking stupid thing paltry violation parking without authorization sticker \( btw , n't somebody 's spot , resident , , parking \) ed green , former ninjaite drinking last night biker , ed green east sun com showed picture said , dod 0111 \( 919 \) 460 8302 go , get know , 'll like ! \( grateful dead \) seemed like least could
egreen east sun com \( ed green pixel cruncher \) subject tracing license plates bdi cagers \? organization sun microsystems , rtp , nc lines 26 distribution world reply egreen east sun com nntp posting host laser east sun com article 17 127 11 85 , jamesf apple com \( jim franklin \) writes file complaint \? actually chance something done \? \? \? \? traffic citation accusation committed crime 's go motions trial want one , still innocent proven guilty cops ones accuse people committing crimes , anyone witnesses crime go highway patrol explain situation , give description car license number , tell specific violation law witnessed wish prosecute \( ie , search vehicle code section number handy \) fill ticket sign go system ticket cop writes goes contested , appear court prosecute word carry weight cop 's ed green , former ninjaite drinking last night biker , ed green east sun com showed picture said , dod 0111 \( 919 \) 460 8302 go , get know , 'll like ! \( grateful dead \) seemed like least could
co uk \( michael burton \) subject performance bike frenzy organization computer newspaper services , , uk lines 7 nntp posting host co uk x newsreader tin 1 1 pl4 anyone going p b frenzy park may going , watch asked would want try , said death
egreen east sun com \( ed green pixel cruncher \) subject live free , quietly , die organization sun microsystems , rtp , nc lines 30 distribution world reply egreen east sun com nntp posting host laser east sun com article cvbnetprime com , tjohnson tazmanian prime com \( tod johnson \( 617 \) 275 1800 x2317 \) writes able avoid accident revving engine stock harley pipes make enough noise draw someones attention sure horns hand already throttle get many feet bike going 55mph goes 30 seconds long would take push horn button \? \? , think 'd loose sure , 're hand 's already throttle thumb already near horn button pushing horn button one simple move revving throttle requires either engaging clutch , accelerating first complex simple horn button push , second ai n't bright potential hazard ahead besides , unique sound horn effective attracting attention bdi cagers sound engine , expect hear \( road ! \) usually case , single anecdote hardly constitutes sound safety procedure answer 161 33 feet ed green , former ninjaite drinking last night biker , ed green east sun com showed picture said , dod 0111 \( 919 \) 460 8302 go , get know , 'll like ! \( grateful dead \) seemed like least could
brian vaughan um cc umich edu \( brian vaughan \) subject sale kawasaki ex500 \( michigan \) organization university michigan lines 13 distribution world nntp posting host itd umich edu sale ann arbor , michigan 1988 kawasaki ex 500 miles cherry red excellent condition asking 2300 contact brian \( 313 \) 747 1604 \( days \) \( 313 \) 434 \( evenings weekends \) e mail vaughan umich edu reply post
npet bnr ca \( nick pettefar \) subject bdi experience nntp posting host bmdhh299 organization bnr europe ltd , maidenhead , uk x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 29 sebastian c sears , tue , 13 apr 1993 02 32 13 gmt wibbled came around right hand sweeper \( going around 45 mph \) find cager going around 30 mph , calmly driving along , traffic around , lane crossing line , swerving , fully totally within south bound lane 9w \( one lane direction \) n't even got yet must brit nick \( english biker \) dod 1069 concise oxford left right m'lud nick pettefar , contractor large ' ` ` ' ' ` ` ' currently incarcerated bnr , maidenhead , united kingdom npet bnr ca '86 bmw k100rs kay ` ' ' ` ` ' ' ` pres pbwasoh \( uk \) , bs 0002
npet bnr ca \( nick pettefar \) subject countersteering faq please post nntp posting host bmdhh299 organization bnr europe ltd , maidenhead , uk x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 37 mike sixsmith , 16 apr 93 10 07 55 gmt wibbled interesting \( yawn \) stuff deleted , i'm like formal training view absolutely essential 're going able ride bike properly safely including countersteering theory newbie courses confusing people unnecessarily , right time far important matters learn original point mike complete concordance , mike silver instructor , lear n't countersteering last year riding bikes since 1976 never told countersteering taught instruct n't seem affected friends rode ignorance nick \( biker \) dod 1069 concise oxford m'lud nick pettefar , contractor large ' ` ` ' ' ` ` ' currently incarcerated bnr , maidenhead , united kingdom npet bnr ca '86 bmw k100rs kay ` ' ' ` ` ' ' ` pres pbwasoh \( uk \) , bs 0002
twg com \( roger walls \) subject boom ! dog attack ! organization wollongong group , palo alto , ca lines 25 article viking ponderous cc iastate edu viking iastate edu \( dan sorenson \) writes ryan cousineau compdyn questor org \( ryan cousineau \) writes mere , gravel road loose rocks \( , like bad concrete \) , swinging beef jumped fence , came ditch , rammed ! saw jump fence went gas , since 20 feet ahead good forty side damn cow literally chased nailed damage cow , bent case guard severely annoyed rider casualties shotgun 'd still eating steak nope , cow hit i'm actively evading , forget much dog run one day riding , friend passing field goats noticed 2 road slowed pass ram made dash friend missing self barb wire fence good generally nice guys turned around goat wire pulled next \( seeing still \) , stopped bike got goat vanished \( field guess \) roger
jburnside mit edu \( jamie w burnside \) subject got bike ! \( wanted advice cb900c purchase \) keywords cb900c , purchase , advice reply jburnside mit edu \( jamie w burnside \) organization mit lincoln laboratory lines 29 article 1993apr16 ncsu edu , jrwaters eos ncsu edu \( jack rogers waters \) writes reletively new reader , quite impressed usefull info available newsgroup would ask get dod number , 'll probably busy riding \) count \? yes thought cat dod faq mailx hahahha jburnside mit edu \( waiting press return \) hey , c'mon guys \( gals \) , chose words carefully even tried get faq 's straight n't holler ! jamie w burnside 1980 cb900 custom \( \) \( \) \( jburnside mit edu \) 1985 \( sold ! \) c \) 1978 \( sale \) ,
fist iscp bellcore com \( richard pierson \) subject anti freeze nntp posting host foxtrot iscp bellcore com organization bellcore distribution usa lines 36 anti freeze wrong , still issue street last pile february 1991 issue page 24 anti freeze makes great party mixer neo synthetic oil company reputation developing overkill protect extend life things , latest development , probably finest radiator coolant available 100 , 000 miles testing , find boiling point 365 degrees \( much higher conventional \) helps , allows use smaller radiators race cars , damage aluminum blocks heads , environmentally safe yep , good stuff baker precision products dept srm ave long beach ca 213 427 neither endorse product , copied advert blurb others info , ymmv two types ships navy submarines targets ! ! ! 1 xs1100lh dod 956 2 next raise richard pierson e06584 vnet 908 699 6063 internet fist iscp bellcore com , uunet uunet ! bcr ! fist include std disclaimer opinions ! ! ! n't shop malls , buy jeans , jackets ammo store
egreen east sun com \( ed green pixel cruncher \) subject countersteering faq please post organization sun microsystems , rtp , nc lines 52 distribution world reply egreen east sun com nntp posting host laser east sun com article zen sys uea ac uk , mjs sys uea ac uk \( mike sixsmith \) writes secondly , tyre road , suspension geometry ground clearance motorcycle dictate quickly swerve avoid obstacles , knowledge physics rider 's ears seriously suggesting countersteering knowledge enables corner faster competently could manage otherwise \? \? 's , put two riders identical machines 's one knows 's , , faster may possible improve technique idea , trial error , effective methodology understanding technique steering motorcycle one improve technique \( hold applies human endeavor \) 's interesting bit knowledge , claim essential bikers know , corner faster better result , absurd consider understanding physics traction absurd \? seriously suggesting one form traction management policy without understanding factors increase decrease available traction \? braking \? highly unlikely biker going develop maximum swerving ability without knowledge turning techniques riding life may problem , emergency situation definately placing disadvantage including countersteering theory newbie courses confusing people unnecessarily , right time far important matters learn disagree existance immense success riding courses teach technique indicate concept taught manner neither confusing , aspects course original point perhaps , ensuing discussion , strayed far point , claim knowledge steering technique irrelevant rider 's ability find assertion ludicrous ed green , former ninjaite drinking last night biker , ed green east sun com showed picture said , dod 0111 \( 919 \) 460 8302 go , get know , 'll like ! \( grateful dead \) seemed like least could
nak cbnews cb att com \( neil kirby \) subject bmw battery organization lines 27 article 1993apr14 ra msstate edu vech ra msstate edu \( craig vechorik \) writes remember correctly , reason bmw 's come expensive , relatively worthless , short lived batteries , 'cause bmw owns interest battery manufacturer 's wrong bmw battery \? 've never problems know numerous people still using original battery 8 10 year old beemers original battery 8 10 year old bmw may fine mine lasted many years replacement battery bmw disaster mechanic comp acc told ca would replace bad one new one evil bad batteries tell customer problems bring back 'd seems many batteries , near , always unlikely going strong end period big batch bad ones , replaced guessed bad ones bmw switched battery cold cranking amps , even less total juice switched even cold cranking amps cost one third fewer dollars neil kirby dod nak archie att com bell labs columbus oh usa \( 614 \) 860 think speak might lawyers sense
russell p hughes dartmouth edu \( \) subject power arc ii ignition , super e carb x posted internews 1 0b14 dartmouth edu organization hog heaven lines 35 bike warranty , finally replaced stock items softail custom title ones installation pretty easy cases , even fairly non mechanical chemist type dude like ! discovered limitations tool collection , fun buying making requisite tools ! mc ignitions power arc ii single fire ignition easy install , read wiring diagram carefully ! setting static timing piece cake installed , found easier starting , smoother idle , power , plus satisfying \( \) bass note exhaust register lovely idle \) folks mc ignitions great answering dumb questions phone helpful bunch guys great product super e carb installation easy , hacked allen wrench small reach get intake manifold bolts like dream , like say ! stock carb \( non adjustable \) lean gas sometimes , even intake manifold super e terrific , hesitation gear , plugs lovely tan color need factory settings ! know may seem like much veteran , bike many pieces weekend began get worried went back together , runs like dream , feeling pretty happy install bub pipes try pass nh noise gestapo test ! russ hughes '92 fxstc dod 6022 \( \) love yeah , 's feeling get like something much motorcycle sonny
vech ra msstate edu \( craig vechorik \) subject bmw moa members read ! nntp posting host ra msstate edu organization mississippi state university lines 14 regards ot posts concerning bias articles k bikes 2 's boxers later date whatever , lighten ! wrote slash two blues bit humor seems lacking moa owners news , stuff rode first day , saw , rode second day , saw body know sense humor went people \? though still mine , dunno regards craig vechorik bmw moa ambassador 9462 dod 843 hey , want ya 'll vote k \? somebody instead throwing trash
mcguire cs utexas edu \( tommy marcus mcguire \) subject countersteering faq please post organization cs dept , university texas austin lines 36 distribution world nntp posting host cash cs utexas edu article sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes horse 's neck direction wish go training plow steering horse neck rein , one technique cross reins necks thus , neck reining left , right rein ed green , former ninjaite drinking last night biker , given desire stay far away possible farming equipment , really hate jump thread i'm going anyway , really hate ed , exactly kind mutant horse like entity ride , anyway \? countersteering work normal , garden variety , one horse \? obmoto flipping march \( think \) issue rider , saw small pseudo ad book hand signals appropriate motorcycling mentioned something signal passenger fire body know title author book , could get copy \? understood implying grown enough ride anyone , book sounded cute tommy mcguire mcguire cs utexas edu mcguire austin ibm com append appropriate disclaimer outgoing public information , identifying personal independent ibm
nrmendel unix amherst edu \( nathaniel mendell \) subject recommendation front tire organization amherst college x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl7 lines 11 hey folks 've got pair zx 10 , 've sticky \( ie slides yet \) , talk wondering next set lazer comp k radial rear hard sport touring , choices stack \? nathaniel zx 10 dod 0812 ama
ak954 yfn ysu edu \( albion h bowers \) subject ducati 400 opinions wanted organization st elizabeth hospital , youngstown , oh lines 33 reply ak954 yfn ysu edu \( albion h bowers \) nntp posting host yfn ysu edu previous article , bgardner pebbles es com \( blaine gardner \) says article mbs news ysu edu ak954 yfn ysu edu \( albion h bowers \) writes previous article , markb wc novell com \( burnham \) says ducati 400 's really slow n't sell us , considering 750ss powerful , 400 dog oh yeah , 12 10 108 mph quarter slug come , last time used 750s max power peak \? think maybe ride one first , passing judgement , lot maximum acceleration guess i'm touch , exactly ducati 400 \? v twin , half v twin balance weight 2nd cylinder would go \? 12 second 1 4 400 n't bad sorry , specific 750 ss ran 12 10 108 17 last small v twin duc got us \( 400 based v twin \) , ran 13 0 103 modern carbs put 400 high 12s 105 btw , fzr ran mid 12s , latest crop japanese run 's hard remember , new clobber old , top end roll technology stands still one al bowers dod 900 alfa ducati hobie kottke 'blad iaido nasa well goodness sakes n't know girls ca n't play guitar \? mary chapin carpenter
mcguire cs utexas edu \( tommy marcus mcguire \) subject live free , quietly , die organization cs dept , university texas austin lines 29 distribution world nntp posting host cash cs utexas edu article sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes article cvbnetprime com , tjohnson tazmanian prime com \( tod johnson \( 617 \) 275 1800 x2317 \) writes sure horns hand already throttle get many feet bike going 55mph goes 30 seconds long would take push horn button \? \? answer 161 33 feet ed green , former ninjaite drinking last night biker , try something like 24 2 feet tommy mcguire mcguire cs utexas edu mcguire austin ibm com append appropriate disclaimer outgoing public information , identifying personal independent ibm
craig cellar org \( saint craig \) subject changing sprocket ratios \( 79 honda cb750 \) organization cellar bbs public access system lines 24 cbrooks ms uky edu \( clayton brooks \) writes honda gurus know replace front sprocket 1979 honda slightly larger one \? \( see preferable reducing size rear one \) wanting ride relaxed rpm done , contact cycle supply , ought sprocket need want cheap , well much cheaper average dealership hey even sprockets hard find craig pilot craig cellar org institute dod \( 215 \) 356 \( keeper keepers \) 3 12 24 9600 promised land faith shall wear hats great majesty , yea , though made cardboard arrows \( red dwarf \)
csundh30 ursa calvin edu \( charles sundheim \) subject boom ! dog attack ! nntp posting host ursa organization calvin college lines 41 ryan cousineau compdyn questor org \( ryan cousineau \) writes blind driveway 15 30 mph matter , many driveways long enough car hit 30 mph end \? eagerly await comment well , driveway keep eye blue turbo utilizes hit ground running merging technique least n't dog need worry last week entering sand gravel covered intersection country , caught something corner eye \( know disgusting sensation great , yet unidentified , evil intimately kind like knowing shadow around cannot possibly anything even remotely good , probably something boeing 747 behaving , gravitationally speaking , much like brick \) negotiating way intersection somehow reminded daytona beach \( sans h2o , sun , babes \) manage get glance impending destiny lucifer 's dog hell 's secret canine \( moved grace , yet hulk creature definite wrong end \) picture mirrors fuzzy , saliva trail shorten verbose tale , angels performed beyond call duty , carried bike sand trap \( idea \) , left face suspiciously resembles metzler tread blood , though rats moral i'm really sure , believe bikers ought allowed carry handguns erc c eric sundheim , mi , usa vfr750f dod 1138
dehp calvin edu \( phil de haan \) subject european c insurance nntp posting host organization calvin college lines 24 h marc lewis two kinds people world olivetti north america divide everything world mail spk olivetti com two kinds things n't thought two kinds people world think two kinds people n't 's three kinds people world like math n't obmoto michigan weather forecast saturday high low 40s , chance snow , showers possible enjoy weather ride phil de haan \( dod \) yes 1974 honda 's nature executive america rely people something used donald , executive director , major league baseball players association
doc webrider central sun com \( steve bunis chicago \) subject route suggestions \? organization sun microsystems , inc lines 33 distribution usa reply doc webrider central sun com nntp posting host webrider central sun com wo n't able make joust summer \( job related time conflict ' \) , plan instead going rider rally knoxville 'll leaving chicago generally plan going along indiana illinois border kentucky tennessee would interested hearing suggestions roads routes areas would consider must ride way knoxville leave early 5 22 need arrive knoxville 6pm 5 25 leaves pretty good stretch time explore way way anyone else going , would like partner ride , let know 'll heading east afterward visit family , sure n't mind company ride rally depending weather et al plan thru trip rally 'll heading blue ridge parkway , jogging west va \( 77 \) run 219 , 28 petersburg , 81 point route presently undetermined pennsylvania , new york \? , back chicago \( 6 6 \) suggestions areas would great interest also many thanks ideas , enjoy , steve bunis , sun microsystems dod 93 st1100 , il ama 78 kz650 \( sure april \? \? \? \? \? \? b \)
lotto laura harvard edu \( jerry lotto \) subject put helmet organization chemistry dept , harvard university lines 25 distribution world nntp posting host laura harvard edu reply ryan cousineau compdyn questor org 's message 19 apr 93 18 25 00 gmt 19 apr 93 18 25 00 gmt , ryan cousineau compdyn questor org \( ryan cousineau \) said cb stupid leave helmet seat cb fall go boom ! ryan another good place helmet mirror \( ! \) kid bad advice helmets two major impact absorbing layers hard outer shell closed cell foam impact layer helmets lose protective properties inner liner time , long outer shell damaged age dr hurt tested helmets many years following landmark study estimated helmet lose 80 's effectiveness inner liner compression video produced discusses phenomenon detail puncture compression type caused mirrors , bars , relatively sharp objects worst offender even comfort liner unaffected , dents holes foam seriously degrade effectiveness helmet habit parking lid mirrors , suggest look comfort liner condition foam significantly damaged \( missing \) , replace helmet jerry lotto lotto harvard edu , , , ama , dod 18 chemistry dept , harvard univ 's harley , 'll ride want
dagibbs quantum qnx com \( david gibbs \) subject wanted advice new cylist organization qnx software systems , ltd lines 73 article srgenprp sr hp com blaisec sr hp com \( blaise cirelli \) writes question dangerous riding \? tough question dangerous driving car , far dangerous n't apply modicum intelligence activity basically , stupidity get hurt killed lot faster motorcycle car care , unreasonably dangerous also , buying good protective clothing helpful , way something go wrong , likely less severely injured first thing , possible take \( msf \) driver training course , get started right foot teach control vehicle safe riding practices second , buy protective gear minimum good helmet pair leather gloves must good sturdy piece also helpful , though leather hiking boots , pair old army boots , something similar works fine purpose long make sure stay tied , leather jacket leather pants chaps nice well also expensive items pants , many people consider good pair jeans reasonable , preferably recent fairly heavy weight similarly jacket , good jean jacket reasonable compromise , though people tend leather jackets around pants another thing drop garage sales looking second hand leather jacket look fairly thick leather items third n't anything stupid n't ride drinking , even one drink noticeably affect judgement balance n't ride snow , conditions black ice likely careful riding rain slow way , take corners , brake early gently try ride sick , tired , taking medication drowsiness warnings , otherwise average shape care , ok next question bike would recommend first time rider n't want race want ride cross country want ride dirt trails 'll probably drive back roads occasional rides city streets freeways maximum spend 2500 'll looking used bike would suggest mid late 80 's japanese mid sized standard something 400 650 cc range would probably reasonable shorter lighter average , might want go low 300 400 cc bike possible models suzuki gs series \( eg , , etc \) generally inline 4 bikes , generally dependable except tendency weakness charging system \( regulator rectifier problems \) first bike \( '82 \) , server well honda nighthawk series \( may also known cb series think \) eg honda , cb650 , etc another series standard motorcycles also fairly dependable kawasaki yamaha probably similar bikes , n't know well mid late '80s models , able buy bike 2000 , leaving money protective clothing insurance licensing costs hope helps , david \( dagibbs qnx com \)
nas nasa gov \( eric \) subject need advice riding someone pillion reply rwert well sf ca us 's message 21 apr 93 01 07 56 gmt organization applied research office , nasa ames research center reply nas nasa gov distribution na lines 22 article c5t759 dsc well sf ca us rwert well sf ca us \( bob wert \) writes need advice someone ride pillion 750 ninja first time 've taken anyone extended ride \( read farther around block \) 'll riding twisty , fairly bumpy roads \( mines road mt hamilton loop sf bay areans \) 'd say bad idea start something much neither one get head particular road requires full concentration sort thing want take passenger first time decide like riding together , want something longer challenging , go hard core road like mines mt hamilton case , 's \( moral \) responsibility make sure proper gear fits especially 're going sport riding eric
sanjay kin lap upenn edu \( sanjay sinha \) subject new motorcycles organization university pennsylvania , language analysis center lines 18 nntp posting host kin lap upenn edu article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu \( andrew infante \) writes curtis jackson pens msf course 140 ! one costs 35 ! \( deal \? ! \) free philadelphia \) '81 cb650 dod would give right arm !
behanna syl nj nec com \( chris behanna \) subject squid \? \( riceburner respect \) organization nec systems laboratory , inc lines 23 article 1993apr20 195116 locus com dana lando la locus com \( dana h myers \) writes article c5qqxp ie1 cbmvax cbm commodore com hartzler cbmvax cbm commodore com \( jerry hartzler cats \) writes article 1993apr15 192558 3314 icomsim com mmanning icomsim com \( michael manning \) writes duck squids n't wave , return waves ever , even excuse ignoramus , squids everybody chris behanna especially squid hey , dana ! long time , read i'm afraid squid rating gone slightly since getting ninja , i'm trying hard restrain damned expensive \( knock , knock \) least 's quiet later , chris behanna dod 114 1983 h fxwg wide glide jubilee 's red lady behanna syl nj nec com 1975 cb360t baby bike disclaimer would nec 1991 zx 11 needs name agree anyway \? raised pack wild corn dogs
svoboda rtsg mot com \( david svoboda \) subject ok , little hasty nntp posting host corolla18 organization motorola inc , cellular infrastructure group lines 16 article speedy 155 engr latech edu speedy engr latech edu \( speedy mercer \) writes changed louisiana girl went court case claiming stoned pot , intoxicated liquor ! geez , happened \? got ticket driving slow \? \? \? dod 8177 technician \( dr speed \) student oh , saying 're edu breath , \? okay dave svoboda \( svoboda void rtsg mot com \) i'm getting tired 90 concours 1000 \( mmmmmmmmmm ! \) beating , dave 84 rz 350 \( ring ding \) \( woops ! \) never learn ama 583905 dod 0330 cog 939 \( chicago \) beth bruiser dixon
frank marvin contex com \( frank perdicaro \) subject st1100 ride keywords heavy lines 95 sixteen days put test driving honda st1100 finally , 17th saturday without much rain fact cleared , became warm sunny , wind died three weeks ago , took long cool ride hawk cycles ! 128 test ride sold , delivered , demo st1100 fifteen hours arrived demo vfr bike locked showroom surrounded 150 bikes , likely move soon today different even bikes 50 used dirt bikes , 50 used street bikes , 35 cars , big tent full fat touring bikes trailers squeezed parking lot sort fat bike convention dave running one msf course , time one classroom one back lot plus , free food cycles ! gives away every weekend summer hmmm , seemed like big moto party ten minutes looking rob c , cheif sales slime , another 5 minutes reading signing long disclosure pray god form helped jt push st mess parking lot went controls , put tank bag hawk right , wife put everything else left \( thats nice \) helped push st lot , thought best jt move edge road , away 100 bikes 100 people rode like bicycle ! 'it cant thought well wrong sat st , feet , could think big put one foot heavy came mind quickly cindy back back \? hard tell seat three times large hawk seat bike seemed nearly control idling side road 3000 rpm second gear , weight seemed even bike 4 1 miles odometer , slippery new tires , pads yet bite disks , things seems smooth sure cycles ! section 128 folks ever ride 30 miles north computer concentration , five miles north splits away , 128 travelled , two lane limited access highway goes heavily sections hamilton , manchester sea newbury way way , meets 133 , road winds sea 30 miles inland andover way goes many thoroughly new england spots perfect , slow , sport touring sections cindy difficulty speed 3rd gear , 4th gear , along top gear thing less low rpm grunt hawk lane changes new experience big required move thing responds well though wallowing complaint behind fairing fairly quiet , helmet buffeting non trivial top gear car passing 85mph nearly effortless smooth , smooth , smooth sure v4 sound reminds , pleasant bars transmitting endless buzz jump 133 caused less impressed brakes hill , reversing , twice reversing radius , decreasing radius turn real squeeze needed front binder section 133 tight , urban st works ok section , shows weight went clam shack oft featured spencer hire place could really find spencer , house 15 miles 133 putting traffic , turned went back 128 half way , yanked cindy 's wrist , hold tight head check left , time find redline second gear gives good shove third fourth sees dod speed short shift top way 133 saw cops light traffic cross dod zone bike new well , 25 miles , ok tried high effort lane changes , wide sweeping turns time wick \? went buffeting pull us seat stayed comfortable wind steering , looked find indicated bad 2 touring beverly comes fast twice posted limit get mile sign , rolled throttle wanted adjust coming good idea several sized patches sand exit ramp back slow heavy behavior cycles ! mile 128 could see even cars stacked outside right got managed thread st cars edge concrete pad front heavy took way much effort cindy put thing center stand sure used side stand st would side within minute demo opinion \? heavy put diet smooth , comfortable , hardly notices dod speed 'd buy 3000 less list , like much bike frank evan perdicaro color systems legalize guns , drugs cash today 101 drive frank marvin , wakefield frank contex com , 617 245
sanjay kin lap upenn edu \( sanjay sinha \) subject battery charger keywords battery charger organization university pennsylvania , language analysis center lines 18 nntp posting host kin lap upenn edu noticed halogen table lamp runs 12 volts big plugs wall says 12 volts dc , 20ma question trickle charge battery cb650 \? n't know rating battery , factory one thanks , sanjay '81 cb650 dod would give right arm !
behanna syl nj nec com \( chris behanna \) subject question \? \? \? \? organization nec systems laboratory , inc distribution usa lines 12 article frigate cis ohio state edu fields cis ohio state edu \( jonathan david fields \) writes probably stupid question new motorcycle scene n't really know anything dod \? setup site arnie skurow later , chris behanna dod 114 1983 h fxwg wide glide jubilee 's red lady behanna syl nj nec com 1975 cb360t baby bike disclaimer would nec 1991 zx 11 needs name agree anyway \? raised pack wild corn dogs
behanna syl nj nec com \( chris behanna \) subject need advice riding someone pillion keywords advice , pillion , help ! organization nec systems laboratory , inc distribution na lines 40 article c5t759 dsc well sf ca us rwert well sf ca us \( bob wert \) writes need advice someone ride pillion 750 ninja first time 've taken anyone extended ride \( read farther around block \) 'll riding twisty , fairly bumpy roads \( mines road mt hamilton loop sf bay areans \) rub , n't \? great weather great roads , unlike rest u nyah , nyah , nyah \) severely humor impaired person 100 lbs fairly small , n't see weight much problem , sort advice give go \? want hold onto \) rather grab rail back , 've heard look shoulder direction 're turning leans , else \? traditional signals slow ! ! go faster ! ! hafta go pee ! ! etc \? \? \? 'll likely notice weight much piece advice n't throttle wheelies , accelerate wee bit slowly usual consciously worry spitting back 's much job keep pillion , guarantee 'll put bike ripping whack open keep lean angles pretty first time need learn 's body english needs learn idea take turn , need learn idea shit ! n't crash ! n't work cross purposes leaned work aggressive riding time important thing tell put hand tank brake could save severely crushed cookies fun , chris behanna dod 114 1983 h fxwg wide glide jubilee 's red lady behanna syl nj nec com 1975 cb360t baby bike disclaimer would nec 1991 zx 11 needs name agree anyway \? raised pack wild corn dogs
bgardner pebbles es com \( blaine gardner \) subject fj1100 1200 owners tankbag suggestions wanted nntp posting host 130 187 85 70 organization evans sutherland computer corporation lines 13 article 1993apr20 195116 ncsu edu martenm chess ncsu edu \( mark marten \) writes looking new tank bag , wondered , follow fj1100 1200 owners , could make suggestions , worked already file apologize asking gladly accept flames blown way ! fj 's large , flat gas tank , 'd imagine almost anything would work personally , i'm quite happy eclipse standard tank bag blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com
nrmendel unix amherst edu \( nathaniel mendell \) subject opinions wanted help nntp posting host amhux3 amherst edu organization amherst college x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl7 lines 9 size ride \? long \? might able slip 500cc bike like keep telling people , though , buy older , cheaper bike ride first might like 500 interceptor example nathaniel zx 10 dod 0812 ama
nrmendel unix amherst edu \( nathaniel mendell \) subject maxima chain wax nntp posting host amhux3 amherst edu organization amherst college x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl7 lines 31 tom dietrich \( txd esd 3com com \) wrote parr acs ucalgary ca \( charles parr \) writes bought , tried , truly , miracle spooge chain lubed , wheel clean , 1000km good , glad hear , i'm still studying think life complete shaft drive weenies comeback discuss shaft effect sure , even though n't consider weenie rip ! i'm afraid work bike stuff deleted also damn little shaft effect concours ! p ! ! ! heh , heh 's pretty funny call instead shaft effect \? nathaniel zx 10 damn little shaft effect dod 0812 ama p okay , 's flame bait ,
subject shaft drives wheelies lotto laura harvard edu \( jerry lotto \) distribution rec organization chemistry dept , harvard university nntp posting host laura harvard edu reply xlyx vax5 cit cornell edu 's message 19 apr 93 21 48 42 gmt lines 10 19 apr 93 21 48 42 gmt , xlyx vax5 cit cornell edu said mike possible wheelie motorcycle shaft drive \? sure fact , wheelie shaft drive motorcycle without even moving n't try countersteering \) jerry lotto lotto harvard edu , , , ama , dod 18 chemistry dept , harvard univ 's harley , 'll ride want
jld hpfcso fc hp com \( jeff deeney \) subject inverted fork needed organization hewlett packard , fort collins , co , usa lines 18 rec motorcycles , matthew mark mueller andrew cmu edu writes help ! need left side inverted fork gsx r 750 go track practice nelson ledges next weekend hey , look like , parts store \? ever occurred visit dealer fork bucks new one \? chances someone happening '92 part laying around , much less one working condition \? sheesh , edu 's besides , right side inverted gsx r fork 's already converted floor lamp jeff deeney dod '88 jld fc hp com ama '81 's bad whole families torn apart something simple wild dogs jack handey
csi compuserve com \( nathan betz \) subject first bike honda ascot \? organization compuserve incorporated lines 10 hi folks i'm going buying first bike i'm considering 82 honda ascot less 5k miles sound like reasonable choice \? anything special need know \? thanks nathan
gaijin ale japan sun com \( john little nihon sun repair depot \) subject , police read stuff \? organization nihon sun microsystems atsugi technical centre japan lines 16 nntp posting host ale japan sun com keywords bear \( j r laferriere \) writes wondering law officers read several questions would like ask pertaining motorcycles cops happened charlie lear \? \? used connections , n't \? \( hey , cyberspace mister wanna cop , ya specify ! \) john little gaijin japan sun com sun microsystems atsugi , japan
deeds hac com \( dean deeds \) subject \( buying advice needed \) reply deeds uucp \( dean deeds \) organization hughes aircraft co , el segundo , ca lines 45 article cs cmu edu dale james cs cmu edu writes 's great bike , 'd better damn careful ! got 1983 third motorcycle , bike light 's size \( think 's 415 pounds \) heavy beginner bike heavy beginner bike 415 pounds n't , except maybe 's dream full tank , 's area 550 lbs , depending year etc 're 6'4 problem physically managing seat roughly akin plastic coated firm painful , depending upon time saddle 1980 '81 versions much better seat , imo bike suffers infamous suzuki regulator problem far avoided roughly 150 suzuki part different honda regulator rectifier units charging system consistently battery refill nearly weekly bad , battery access gained removing seat , tank , regulator lasted 100 , 000 miles , n't battery wiring connectors charging path get though , tending melt insulation suspect n't help well removed cool air battery access earlier bikes n't require tank removal learn drill , 's pretty straightforward replacement parts , like suzuki parts , outrageously expensive bought replacement parts several brands motorcycles , 'll offer grain salt taken dale 's assessment good luck , careful ! dale sentiments ca n't argue wo n't dean deeds deeds hac com
howland noc2 arc nasa gov \( curt howland \) subject newbie organization nasa science internet project office lines 16 article mailer cc fsu edu , xi cs fsu edu \( \) writes hey , yea , thats newbie never owned motorcycle , makes 5 ! spring ! matt ps really sure purpose article oh well neither read days , try curt howland ace dod 0663 eff 569 howland nsipo nasa gov '82 v45 sabre meddle afairs wizards , makes soggy hard light
scs8 cunixb cc columbia edu \( sebastian c sears \) subject need advice riding someone pillion keywords advice , pillion , help ! nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply scs8 cunixb cc columbia edu \( sebastian c sears \) organization columbia university distribution na lines 44 article c5t759 dsc well sf ca us rwert well sf ca us \( bob wert \) writes person 100 lbs fairly small , n't see weight much problem , sort advice give go \? want hold onto \) rather grab rail back , 've heard look shoulder direction 're turning leans , else \? traditional signals slow ! ! go faster ! ! hafta go pee ! ! etc \? \? \? 've never liked passengers try shift weight turns find weight shift sudden 's one thing 're getting comfortable decide look shoulder , n't recommend shift weight turn violent also \( think someone already said \) make sure passenger wears good gear sometimes choose ride without helmet lacking safety gear \( depends squidly feel \) wo n't let passengers handle , would n't want hurt anyone else , n't let without gloves , jacket , \( least \) jeans , heavy boots , helmet fits really want positive experience us , mainly 'll want go , help appreciated go real easy 's amazing solid grip handle bars passenger n't make feel like 's going slide back , turns sickening general , feels much less controlled smooth passenger ca n't stand back brother 's bike , ride aggressively ride know 's good pilot still , everything feels 're passenger thanks , bob show showing first time wanna sit buy drink someday temple dog sea bass sears scs8 cunixb cc columbia edu dod 516 stanley , id '79 yamaha xs750f '77 bmw r100s '85 toyota 4runner nyc , ny
mbeaving bnr ca \( beav \) subject dod confessional nntp posting host bmerh824 reply mbeaving bnr ca organization bell northern research , ottawa , canada lines 31 ca n't help 've tried rational , look way , everytime happens , hate motorcycles first thought phase though would get used n't happen tried gazing 900 customs , time hurled large \( also picture german tourists cheering taking holiday snaps , ca n't figure part \) \? everytime read sig containing wheel wonder , shudder feel pity poor soul suffered enough imagine owner \( \) living discarded box , tucked next cx500 i'm hoping deliverance past milwaukee machine , actually begin understand preaching must hope beav mike beavington dod 9733 v65sabre mbeaving bnr ca employer idea i'm talking !
jon bigdog \( jon wright \) subject anybody tape daytona \? organization pages software inc lines 13 article acsu buffalo edu ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( mark w \) writes n't seen anything yet , 's already mentioned i'm sorry repost anyways , tnn showing daytona sunday april 18 7 00pm 8 30pm \( est \) n't miss 's got hell finish ! well , looked n't manage find listings tnn anybody taped vhs , could persuaded lend watch \? would greatful jon wright hell pages software inc dod come mouth \? '86
jon bigdog \( jon wright \) subject women 's jackets \? \( ed must daemon child ! ! \) organization pages software inc distribution usa lines 25 article 1993apr16 colorado edu bowmanj csn org \( jerry bowman \) writes article 18f netcom com bethd netcom com \( beth dixon \) writes article 1993apr14 mnemosyne cs du edu nyx cs du edu \( john hensley \) writes beth dixon \( bethd netcom com \) wrote new duc 750ss n't , 'll go back carrying lipstick jacket pocket life hard \) wife looking jacket , men 's styles 's tried n't fit well fit shoulders arms , 're tight across chest , something like anyone suggestions \? i'm assuming v pilot , addition handy storage facilities , pretty decent fit company makes reasonable line women 's motorcycling stuff \? importantly , anyone boulder denver know shop bothers carrying \? 's article motorcycling couple months back specifically women 's attire serious serious riding mention makes stuff specific women 's dimensions , also works ok enough well bates make custom jackets leathers reasonable charge jon wright hell pages software inc dod come mouth \? '86
thompson apple com \( paul thompson \) subject wanted advice new cylist organization apple computer , inc , cupertino , california lines 14 nntp posting host apple com blaisec sr hp com \( blaise cirelli \) writes question dangerous riding \? sorta next question bike would recommend first time rider '88 honda hawk ymmv paul thompson apple computer
jrwaters eos ncsu edu \( jack rogers waters \) subject opinion means organization north carolina state university , project eos lines 74 article 1993apr20 rtsg mot com svoboda rtsg mot com \( david svoboda \) writes article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu \( andrew infante \) writes well , aptly put , get road , jerk , n't wanna hear whining fine fuck noticed , 91 , two years ago , yes , 've learned , 's cost yes , 've known people \( friends relatives \) 've involved drunk related accidents \( , hit \) cousin still recovering , ca n't take back happened yes , stupid , reminding time , 're neither helping , stuff opinion hey , man , brought agree completely , driving drunk really stupid , understand appreciate feel bad dwi endemic society real problem , motorcyclists , worst vulnerable positions around drunk driver \( alert readers might remember last year witnessed dwi accident \( right bloody front \) , unable save life one participants , reported \) also , drunk driving motorcyclists prime cause injury death , raises insurance rates , forces stupidly restrictive laws , turns public us ride view , drunk driving carry mandatory prison sentence one traffic offenses public funds issue , genuine safety issue bring subject rec moto , admitting caught dwi , looking sympathy consequences , n't expect people respond warm wishes dave svoboda \( svoboda void rtsg mot com \) i'm getting tired beav lighten \( esp beav \) agree dui dwi serious reasonable laws , strict enforcement , tough sentences , andrew post looking sympathy consequences posted asking advice extremely high quote post obviously valid later found insurance less noted defend way drunk driving \( drunk driving \) many repeat offenders worry bdc try make person longer part problem \? paid debt society step high horse irresponsible past said , i'm guilty type hostility towards rapists think comes feel punishment severe enough may true dwi dui case , need change reasonable law dwi dui stiff penalty fewer people would rate , andrew paid debt defined law think debt actually greater law mandates , tell jack waters ii dod 1919 n't fear thief night one comes afternoon , i'm still asleep , worry
nelson seahunt imat com \( michael nelson \) subject extraordinary footpeg engineering nntp posting host seahunt imat com organization seahunt , san francisco ca lines 18 article vtserf cc vt edu ranck joesbar cc vt edu \( wm l ranck \) writes exb0405 csdvax csd unsw edu au wrote let guess making left turn , correct \? edge stud contacting road caused turn making right turn would tightened stud bzzzt ! thanks playing 'd making right turn , sucker would couple feet ground michael michael nelson 1993 cbr900rr internet nelson seahunt imat com dod 0735
mjs sys uea ac uk \( mike sixsmith \) subject fj1100 1200 owners tankbag suggestions wanted organization university east anglia lines 14 martenm chess ncsu edu \( mark marten \) writes looking new tank bag , wondered , follow fj1100 1200 owners , could make suggestions , worked already file apologize asking gladly accept flames blown way ! 've got tankbag fj1100 , ai n't good 's difficult fix securely cos tank fairing layout , also bars full lock bag touches handlebar switches , get horn full left lock starter motor full right ! ! buying another think 'd go magnetic one
nuet ke pts mot com \( keith nuetzman x3153 p7625 \) subject help ! bikes short \? nntp posting host 145 4 54 110 reply nuet ke pts mot com organization paging wireless data group lines 3 i'm sure older bikes , yamaha virago 535 spec 'd seat height 27 6 honda shadow 27 2
cgkarras world std com \( christopher g karras \) subject need maintenance tips organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 29 reading service manual bike \( suzuki 1990 \) couple questions hope answer checking oil level dip stick built oil fill cap , one check cap screwed \? used dip stick cage stick extracted fully , wiped clean fully , withdrawn read dip stick bike part oil filler cap 1 2 inch threads remove cap , wipe stick clean without screwing reading \? service manual calls application suzuki bond head cover guess sort liquid gasket material know generic \( cheaper \) substitute \? headlight halogen 60 55 w bulb easy , brighter replacement bulb available \? look one \? always , much appreciate help weather philadelphia finally turned warm weekend saw lotsa bikes , riders waved nice change tone philadelphia like chris christopher g karras internet cgkarras world std com
kelvin seas virginia edu \( brent stone \) subject wanted advice new cylist \( ditto \) organization university virginia lines 21 article srgenprp sr hp com blaisec sr hp com \( blaise cirelli \) writes i'm thinking becoming bike owner year w bike experience thus far figure getting decent used bike 1k thing would pay i'm grad school \( car permits i'm going want 's ride bus \) i'm looking advice first bike best models years i'm looking old loud roaring thing sounds like monster quit newer engines liking advice thanks , bs
leavitt cs umd edu \( mr bill \) subject countersteering faq please post organization cafe edge universe lines 13 mjs sys uea ac uk \( mike sixsmith \) writes mjs well , many courses elsewhere mjs teach technique , yet seem rather successful sure n't miss never poor n't know 're missing guess ignorance bliss , eh mike \? mr bill bill leavitt , 224 '82 cbx white lightning , '82 gs850g leavitt cs umd edu '76 little honda , '68 lone star sick leave dod ama nia '69 impala convertible incredible hulk , others hmmm , thought bore stroke technique ! michael bain , 757
csundh30 ursa calvin edu \( charles sundheim \) subject story keywords party ! ! ! ! nntp posting host ursa organization calvin college lines 12 lynn pacesetter com \( lynn e hall \) writes allowed \( yes , god \) open containers street signs bars yeah , right ! 20 cops hand couple thousand bikers 1 block main street citing anyone street filled empty cans least 2 feet deep gutter crowd hell shows everywhere say party \? still wonder stereotype us erc
cs strath ac uk \( gillian e \) subject act front traffic jerks organization comp sci dept , strathclyde univ , glasgow , scotland lines 7 nntp posting host fleming 07 cs strath ac uk mere female , often found ca n't really take big offensive line asshole car drivers , found subtle ooops mean nasty way get back somebody cuts , wait till pulled past , gently lean bend aerial , every time done eventually snapped near base tends go undetected bummer replace gillian
leavitt cs umd edu \( mr bill \) subject countersteering faq please post organization cafe edge universe lines 39 mjs sys uea ac uk \( mike sixsmith \) writes mjs ! ! saying n't even need tell people mjs technique countersteering , cos intuitively first mjs time try go round corner karr cs cornell edu \( david karr \) writes karr sure \? remember get around corners without karr countersteering fact , experienced rider course instructors karr claimed could get behind new rider make bike karr turn whichever side wanted shifting weight karr around , even operator trying turn opposite karr direction \( admit 've never actually seen \) 've experienced , back young \( er \) \( \) foolish first bike used track extremely true going highway , would set throttle tension screw enough hold gas steady , slide back seat lean backrest , riding without hands needed turn , 'd shift weight turn , lo behold , bike would turn , sans touching bars ! granted , would n't turn fast , proves turn bike without countersteering , least terms input bar normally associated countersteering 've said , know many people think lean , input 're giving bar totally unconscious whereas may sufficient get road normal circumstances , possibly years stretch , ca n't think anybody 'd argue preferable properly knowing manipulate bar turn , regardless want call except maybe mr sixsmith \) mr bill bill leavitt , 224 '82 cbx white lightning , '82 gs850g leavitt cs umd edu '76 little honda , '68 lone star sick leave dod ama nia '69 impala convertible incredible hulk , others hmmm , thought bore stroke technique ! michael bain , 757
asphaug lpl arizona edu \( erik asphaug x2773 \) subject insurance discount summary two vehicles discount \? organization lunar planetary laboratory , tucson az lines 26 , need answer pressing question two bikes would love keep one capable smooth street bike , low lightweight wide power great brakes beemer g , kind rough city great long road backroad good start stable , n't think 's going work unfortunately , insurance going short hairs unless insurance agent offers multi vehicle discount time cars , assuming 're capable driving one things time n't think 'll ever manage bikes ride tandem street \( turn left accelerate zephyr turn right accelerate beemer \) anybody know agency makes use simple fact discount rates \? state farm n't way , i'm moving bay area 'll insuring bikes , registering ease shock , somebody cost insuring \? tucson cost 320 \( full \) 200 \( liability \) two , per ,
zowie daedalus stanford edu \( craig powderkeg deforest \) subject need advice riding someone pillion distribution na organization stanford center space science astrophysics lines 61 nntp posting host daedalus stanford edu reply nas nasa gov 's message 20 apr 93 19 32 39 article c5t759 dsc well sf ca us rwert well sf ca us \( bob wert \) writes need advice someone ride pillion 750 ninja first time 've taken anyone extended ride \( read farther around block \) 'll riding twisty , fairly bumpy roads \( mines road mt hamilton loop sf bay areans \) communication work system slow holler back every reasonable speeds , even magna , hear 's , say , 45 mph ca n't really communicate balance new passengers real pain , never know 're going react steering people catch immediately lean others completely leaning thing , keep bodies perpendicular horizon pain turning , worst passengers stay perpendicular horizon , remember middle turn whip around 're position always screws line 've picked 's personal things tell passengers attire helmet , long pants , boots heavy shoes , jacket keep feet pegs times , unless say otherwise get unless say \( 've people try traffic , i'm pulling parking space ! \) muffler gets hot ! \( 'nuff said \) get good traction 're going fall \( many first time riders surprised tightly turn ! \) turn dynamics sit feel like 're sitting upright 're going straight trust butt , eyes 're confused , close eyes couple turns get feel hug tight please , sudden moves shift weight desired , gradual , compensate faceplate open close desired trust essential trust driver \( \) right thing 've driven many miles thing , know operate enjoy ride \( important stress example , one first time seemed watch speedo like hawk drove beach 84 , topped 35 mph , 'd holler , slow ! i'm scared , simply covered speedometer spare piece duct tape keep stuck top cluster problem solved watched scenery instead instruments , much better time based experience driving lincoln continental , unwilling trust ability choose safe speed bike \) usually 'll point controls , engine , transmission , brakes , tires , etc discuss motorcycle physics bit first timers helps calm nerves , gives bike chance warm watch gravel mt hamilton road lots little last big rain , many blind corners nicely covered carpet little , round , nearly invisible stones n't help build trust slide blind corner , first trip ! good luck fun ! drink soap ! dilute dilute ! ok !
bgardner pebbles es com \( blaine gardner \) subject ain't ! keywords faq , , nntp posting host 130 187 85 70 organization evans sutherland computer corporation lines 11 article speedy 156 engr latech edu speedy engr latech edu \( speedy mercer \) writes confused \( like that's surprise ! \) , someone asked copy faq via e mail , wondering proper responce \? panel judges question , answer send one copy , gang faq blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd es com
mbeaving bnr ca \( michael beavington \) subject opinion means nntp posting host bmerh824 reply mbeaving bnr ca organization bnr ottawa , dms software design lines 27 article news duke edu , infante acpub duke edu \( andrew infante \) writes well , aptly put , get road , jerk , n't wanna hear whining fine fuck well still looks like 've got attitude problem mr take comments sensitivity still despise people belittle drinking driving since first girlfriend killed asshole back '85 learn take verbal abuse ca n't take flames , ca n't use brains , stay newsgroup beav mike beavington ottawa , ont , canada dod 9733 seca 400 seca 400 rz350 v65sabre \( 1994 gts1000 ca n't afford '93 \) mbeaving bnr ca company idea talking !
james leo belliveau jbc9 andrew cmu edu subject first bike \? \? organization freshman , mechanical engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 17 nntp posting host po2 andrew cmu edu anyone , serious motorcycle enthusiast without motorcycle , put bluntly , sucks really would like advice would good starter bike know one thing however , need make first bike good one , buying second time soon question specifically interested racing bikes , \( cbr 600 f2 , gsx r 750 \) know may sound kind crazy considering 've never bike , responsible , fast learner , love please give advice think would help search , including places look even specific bikes want sell thanks \) jamie belliveau \( jbc9 andrew cmu edu \)
james leo belliveau jbc9 andrew cmu edu subject first bike \? \? organization freshman , mechanical engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 17 nntp posting host andrew cmu edu anyone , serious motorcycle enthusiast without motorcycle , put bluntly , sucks really would like advice would good starter bike know one thing however , need make first bike good one , buying second time soon question specifically interested racing bikes , \( cbr 600 f2 , gsx r 750 \) know may sound kind crazy considering 've never bike , responsible , fast learner , love please give advice think would help search , including places look even specific bikes want sell thanks \) jamie belliveau \( jbc9 andrew cmu edu \)
dean fringe rain com \( dean woodward \) subject comments 1984 honda interceptor 1000 \? organization organization mass confusion lines 30 jearls tekig6 pen tek com \( jeffrey david earls \) writes article skyfox howp skyfox writes hi considering purchase 1984 honda 1000cc interceptor cdn \( us \) n't know mileage bike , picture magazine , looks good shape anybody enlighten whether good purchase \? hate jump type thread pass 's big , top heavy , carries lots expensive parts said friends refer ground magnets one jeff earls jearls tekig6 pen tek com dod ama '89 fj1200 millennium falcon squid factor 16 99 '93 hit button ! han solo ai n't nothin' like 115 mph sweeper idaho rockies dean woodward want step world \? dean fringe rain com 's socio psychotic state bliss '82 virago 920 guns'n'roses , 'my world' dod 0866
cjackson adobe com \( curtis jackson \) subject dogs organization adobe systems incorporated , mountain view lines 35 article 93apr20 193958 30419 acs ucalgary ca parr acs ucalgary ca \( charles parr \) writes sheesh , even trained attack dog match human , advantages agree 100 , grab chin careful keep hands away twisting head , going death \? even one occasion unexpectedly jumped 130 lb german shepherd grabbed upper jaw one hand lower jaw i'm holding mouth open \( way strong enough clamp \) nothing however , macho shit aside , fact riding bike dog intercept , may unwise stop try deal dog , simple fact might leathers working jeans deal properly means , kick dog otherwise get attention , stop stay kick dog ride away , victory dog drove territory even qualified victory , victory kick stop , sit , 99 dogs say , oh , shit ! guy 's serious ! back established dominance dog , probably bother , however , different story stop near llama , hop insist ride 's 're lucky n't like 'll barf bike steal ! curtis jackson cjackson mv us adobe com '91 hawk gt '81 maxim 650 dod 0721 kotb '91 black lab mix studley doright '92 collie golden george justification taking away individuals' freedom guise public safety thomas jefferson
oconnor eng umd edu \( mark o'connor \) subject question helmets organization university maryland , college park , md lines 10 distribution world nntp posting host coffee eng umd edu originator oconnor coffee eng umd edu side fence , owned road helmet took would consider minor fall , visible damage shell yes , helmet job damage impact ratio scary bell moto 5 , taken impacts order twice impact \( frequently mx \) , n't even scratch two seasons recommendation buy high quality gear ymmv mark
bowmanj csn org \( jerry bowman \) subject women 's jackets \? \( ed must daemon child ! ! \) nntp posting host fred colorado edu organization university colorado boulder , ocs distribution usa lines 48 article 18f netcom com bethd netcom com \( beth dixon \) writes article 1993apr14 mnemosyne cs du edu nyx cs du edu \( john hensley \) writes beth dixon \( bethd netcom com \) wrote new duc 750ss n't , 'll go back carrying lipstick jacket pocket life hard \) wife looking jacket , men 's styles 's tried n't fit well fit shoulders arms , 're tight across chest , something like anyone suggestions \? i'm assuming v pilot , addition handy storage facilities , pretty decent fit company makes reasonable line women 's motorcycling stuff \? importantly , anyone boulder denver know shop bothers carrying \? lucky found jacket liked actually fits hg makes v pilot jackets , mine similar style made leather san jose bought one last two ever made finding decent womens motorcycling gear easy lot stuff 's everywhere , made fashion leather , made fit men , etc n't know shop area women rider friendly places san francisco san jose area , n't recommend buying clothing mail order hard tell 'll fit bates custom makes leathers might want call \( 're l \) get cost estimate type jacket wife interested large manufacturers like bmw h g sell women 's lines clothing decent quality , fit ago , noemi lisa talking starting business sort thing n't know finally decided beth seems johns h ft collins used carry honest god womens beth one true beth dixon bethd netcom com 1981 yamaha sr250 excitable girl dod 0384 1979 yamaha sr500 spike garage rat fssnoc 1843 1992 ducati 750ss ama 631903 1963 ducati 250 monza restoration project 1kqspt 1 8 keep handle anything side deranged zz top
randy megatek com \( randy davis \) subject v max handling request reply randy megatek com organization megatek corporation , san diego , california lines 22 article 1993apr15 newbridge com bradw newbridge com \( brad warkentin \) writes zero fast quickly lastest rumor 115 hp rear wheel , handles like dream straight line 80 100 , gets tad upset according review cycle world cornering , er well , ca n't everything sure everything , everything mean fast straight line performance handling present day liter sport bikes horsepower faster 0 60 1 4 mile times v max plus , corner bit better seriously , handling probably good big standards early 80 's whats state art days true randy davis email randy megatek com zx 11 00072 pilot uunet ! ucsd ! megatek ! randy dod 0013 , one goes eleven nigel tufnel , spinal tap
arnie magnus acs ohio state edu \( arnie skurow \) subject solar battery good \? nntp posting host photon magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 28 article 1993apr16 csd newshost stanford edu robert xenon edu \( robert kennedy \) writes 've seen solar battery boosters , seem come without guarantee hand , 've heard people use success , although yet communicate directly person tried one \? experience \? use \( occasional charging , long term leave weeks , etc \) \? robert kennedy cheap solar charger keep car purchased via mail order catalog 4 year old battery oldsmobile would run summer riding bike driving car knowing 'd selling car year , purchased charger believe , thing worked battery held charge started car , many times 4 5 weeks sitting eventually purchase new battery anyway winter sun n't strong enough due low angle think paid 29 30 charger powerful , expensive ones , purchased cheapest one could find 've never used bike e z charger keep plugged time bike garaged arnie skurow
tony morgan demon co uk \( tony kidson \) subject cats dogs \? \? \? ! distribution world organization modem palace reply tony morgan demon co uk x newsreader simple news 1 90 \( ka9q dis 1 21 \) lines 21 article emory mathcs emory edu gnome pd org writes james bessette \( cbnewsj cb att com \) wrote article hplsla hp com kens hplsla hp com \( ken snyder \) writes ask breeder also chase bmws also cam chain case chase \? tony tony kidson pgp 2 2 key request voice 44 81 466 5127 morgan towers , cat move e mail \( order \) morgan road , 've take top tony morgan demon co uk bromley , machine tny cix compulink co uk england br1 3qe honda st1100 dod 0801 100024 301 compuserve com
demon co uk \( stephen dunne \) subject ggrrrrrr ! ! cages double parking motorc news software ibm os 2 pm rn \( nr 2 \) v0 17h vishnepolsky r rogers lines 22 nntp posting host demon co uk reply demon co uk \( stephen dunne \) organization demon internet services d0i sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com \( ed green pixel cruncher \) writes article 34211 castle ed ac uk , wbg festival ed ac uk \( w geake \) writes apartment complex used live tried , put thing driver 's window , could n't miss friend damned near wrecked way home one night , vision blocked sticker suggested manager enormous liability careful putting stickers windows hmmm security guards place parking stickers drivers side windows reflection could still cause accident suppose 's people n't states \) stephen stephen dunne mag dod 766 demon co uk international market association speak , thats voice \( 44 \) 71 538 fax \( 44 \) 71 538 pgp public key available affiliated demon co uk site
speedy engr latech edu \( speedy mercer \) subject boom ! dog attack ! organization louisiana tech university lines 17 nntp posting host bhm116e spc engr latech edu article csundh30 ursa csundh30 ursa calvin edu \( charles sundheim \) writes tale bike eating devil dog deleted moral i'm really sure , believe bikers ought allowed carry handguns come louisiana legal carry concealed weapons bike ! dod 8177 technician \( dr speed \) student stolen taglines god real , unless declared integer came , saw , deleted files black holes god dividing zero world end 5 minutes please log earth 98 full please delete anyone
moseley u washington edu \( steve l moseley \) subject neck reining countersteering faq please post organization microbial pathogenesis motorcycle maintenance lines 25 distribution world nntp posting host biostat washington edu article sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com \( ed green pixel cruncher \) writes basically , two ways steer horse , plow rein neck rein plow reining steers keeping reins separate , pull direction wish go neck reining steers horse holding reins together one hand , pulling horse 's neck direction wish go training plow steering horse neck rein , one technique cross reins necks thus , neck reining left , right rein pulls right side neck , left side bit \( horse used plow reining days \) learned riding kid palm reign , pushing right side horse 's neck right palm turn left lot like countersteering came pretty easy transition motorcycles took however break habit kicking rear fender heels go faster steve steve l moseley moseley u washington edu microbiology sc 42 phone \( 206 \) 543 university washington fax \( 206 \) 543 seattle , wa 98195
karish gondwana stanford edu \( chuck karish \) subject changing sprocket ratios \( 79 honda cb750 \) organization mindcraft , inc lines 21 article ms uky edu cbrooks ms uky edu \( clayton brooks \) writes honda gurus know replace front sprocket 1979 honda slightly larger one \? \( see preferable reducing size rear one \) 's twin cam , right \? 's steel guard right next sprocket keep broken chain punching hole engine cases , 's needed 's probably enough room fit bigger sprocket 'd inclined take two teeth rear 5 ratio change rather adding one front 7 raise overall gear ratio much 'll impair bike 's , gears far enough apart one gear provides adequate response given speed honda 750s n't widest power bands chuck karish karish mindcraft com \( 415 \) 323 9000 karish pangea stanford edu
ak954 yfn ysu edu \( albion h bowers \) subject bike sold net 600 miles away ! organization st elizabeth hospital , youngstown , oh lines 23 reply ak954 yfn ysu edu \( albion h bowers \) nntp posting host yfn ysu edu previous article , essbaum rchland vnet ibm com \( alexander essbaum \) says article hplsla hp com , kens hplsla hp com \( ken snyder \) writes bikes sold long distances 'd love hear ! bought vfr750 guy san jose via net 's 825 miles according odometer ! mark andy \( living pittsburgh \) bought rz350 dude massachusetts \( connecticut \? \) sold bike via net young lady lived salt lake city live near lost angeles turned mutual ucla well al bowers dod 900 alfa ducati hobie kottke 'blad iaido nasa well goodness sakes n't know girls ca n't play guitar \? mary chapin carpenter
po cwru edu \( kathleen j kelly \) subject protective gear organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 6 nntp posting host thor ins cwru edu second boots oil spots cars particularly slippery parking bikes , good boots help well squid
subject changing sprocket ratios \( 79 honda cb750 \) stafford vax2 winona msus edu \( john stafford \) distribution world organization winona state university nntp posting host stafford winona msus edu lines 11 article cellar org , craig cellar org \( saint craig \) wrote done , contact cycle supply , hey even sprockets hard find second even sprockets r100rs hard find john stafford minnesota state university winona standard disclaimers apply
harmons wv tek com \( harmon sommer \) subject bmw moa members read ! lines 22 sender reply harmons gyro wv tek com \( harmon sommer \) distribution organization usr ens etc organization keywords new bmw owner thinking signing moa , right beginning look suspiciously like throwing money rathole let current membership lapse 's renewal case 's another 3 years , 'd appreciate hints keep organization business long \( preferably longer , course , worth part \) become activist campaign mc insurance program universal driver rider training licensing pick topic dear heart get organization act n't move ships
harmons wv tek com \( harmon sommer \) subject countersteering faq please post lines 15 sender reply harmons gyro wv tek com \( harmon sommer \) distribution organization usr ens etc organization keywords hey ed , explain fact pull horse 's reins left go left \? \) confusing two threads \? unless taught neck rein left rein brought bear left side horse 's neck go right counter steering \?
mlb semi harris com \( marvin \) subject sale nntp posting host mlb semi harris com organization harris semiconductor , melbourne fl keywords sale lines 44 selling sportster make room new excellent condition never wrecked abused always garaged 1990 sportster 883 standard \( blue \) factory conversion kit less 8000 miles branch ported polished big valve heads eagle carb eagle cam adjustable pushrods harley performance mufflers tachometer new tires front rear progressive front fork springs harley king queen seat bar everything chromed ring chain fork oil cooler thermostat new die hard battery bike cover price 7000 00 phone hm 407 254 wk 407 724 melbourne , florida
infante acpub duke edu \( andrew infante \) subject insurance lotsa points organization duke university durham , n c lines 15 nntp posting host north1 acpub duke edu well , looks like i'm f cked insurance dwi 91 beemer , rec vehicle , 'll cost almost 1200 bucks insure year \? \( could probably sell bike return dod number , \) andy infante listen everybody says , fact remains '71 bmw r60 5 've got get thing dod 2426 joan sutherland opinions , dammit , nothing anyone else ! ! !
jlevine rd hydro ca \( jody levine \) subject countersteering faq please post organization ontario hydro research division lines 73 article d0i sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes article rd hydro ca , jlevine rd hydro ca \( jody levine \) writes article sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes single track snow vehicles front skis , snow skis attached legs , surface snow , creating bank ice skates alter phase ice , also carve tracks \? bugger motorcycles hence , apparent similarity handling characteristics may , may underlying physics behind motorcycle handling characteristics ok , one last attempt , 'll take different tack seem agreement two explanations one use handlebars lean moving motorcycle question , one effect dominant , one \? idea would design experiment would two characteristics , see effect produces similar result one us bikes familiar let 's look one , far , sparked controversy , precession examine alone , would get rid contact patch effect , allowing contact patches transmit force wheels steering mechanism would remain , attached vehicle weight bike , suspension \( wheels transmit forces bike way \) similar bikes experiment would ride bike along dry road get moving get wheels spinning , change surfaces something wo n't transmit forces contact patches , try steering see bike leans probably would , since us know easy fall ice , would n't get good idea well feels like , without contact patches , ca n't turn maybe 's better way besides , even ice n't get rid contact patch forces altogether , 'd find really surface 'd try wheels locked really know rotation looking contact patch effect , however , fairly simple find vehicle gets magnitude direction patch forces motorcycle , transmits way vehicle , without rotating wheels gets contact patch forces irrelevant , 're looking something contact patches go straight sideways , skis skates would fine n't know snow ski skate bikes , suzuki arranged like motorcycle fat water skis wheels think front rear ski , something like , could try coast get rid effect admit second hand info \( although 'd love try one \) , review local cycle rag guy bike shop sells say machine handles much like motorcycle , countersteer turn contact patches transmit similar forces bike 's , similar suspension arrangement , gyroscopes , countersteering conclusion n't need gyroscopes countersteer vehicles motorcycle like contact patch arrangements still n't know real effect gyroscopes 're , observations handlebar angle , force , etc relate steering general , i'm willing bet 're dominant factor countersteering n't like conclusion , n't accept , motorcycle 's behaviour consistent someone prove otherwise , go ahead 've bike like jody levine dod 275 kv got pf jody p levine hydro ca ride toronto , ontario , canada
jlevine rd hydro ca \( jody levine \) subject observation helmets organization ontario hydro research division distribution usa lines 19 article 1993apr15 research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com \( chris behanna \) writes one say \? stupid leave helmet seat fall go boom ! true enough put ground 's free spooge , directly head otherwise kind fall helmet designed protect exactly helmet lot less energy head n't , 's lump inside compress liner shell drop seat enough crack shell \? doubt , always send inspected 've bike like jody levine dod 275 kv got pf jody p levine hydro ca ride toronto , ontario , canada
chtm eece unm edu \( denis \) subject act front traffic jerks organization computing people lines 43 nntp posting host chtm eece unm edu x mailer mail user 's shell \( 7 0 1 12 13 89 \) bcc nielsmm imv aau dk status article nielsmm imv aau dk nielsmm imv aau dk \( niels mikkel michelsen \) writes day , raining cats dogs , therefor going speed limit , nothing , bike guy bmw driving 1 2 meters behind 7 800 meters next red light calmly put bike leg , walked back car , rolled window , told total idiot \( reason \) right thing \? well , used get mad , either try communicate anger jerks , , , educate improve manners traffic try get tail heavy traffic slow bit , mostly buffer zone front balance minimal buffer behind , also often find jerk behind notice traffic moving faster lanes , switch one , pass fine , keep better eye jerk behind , looking ahead , rather front , splitting attention ahead mirrors traffic heavy way jerk pass , might pull , look street number name , \( still ignoring jerk \) get jerk tail sounds , well , wimpy un pessimistic , perhaps \( psych types \) passive aggressive , consider prefer get adrenaline riding , rather yelling jerks ride improve whole day , yelling jerk likely \( \) ruin ride day anger worst case , yelling jerk could ruin life since even tiny jerk cage behind better armed \( cage \) bike hand , might try subtly arranging last vehicle legally cross one intersections , leaving jerk waiting cross traffic \( thus tail \) , crossing illegally \( hopefully front waiting police \) like almost everything , choices mileage vary denis chtm eece unm edu
karr cs cornell edu \( david karr \) subject bmw moa members read ! organization cornell univ cs dept , ithaca ny 14853 distribution usa lines 32 article shaman wv tek com harmons wv tek com \( harmon sommer \) writes new bmw owner thinking signing moa , let current membership lapse 's renewal hints keep organization business long become activist campaign mc insurance program universal driver rider training licensing pick topic dear heart get organization act n't move ships 're obviously referring three quoted individuals , n't send 20 crew ship keep moving get organization act easy say , says little one really organization actually largely determined president directors , far see 's makes important vote election officers strike bmwmoa lot less politically active \( state national arenas , \) c organizations change \? join groups already politics \? \( incidentally , political hazards motorcycle riders us moment n't compare problems groups like gun owners try take target pistol shooting northeast california , bet 'll wish worry wearing helmet \( every thread rec moto eventually come around guns \? \) \) david karr \( karr cs cornell edu \)
kendall adobe com \( janice kendall \) subject looking women 's motorcycle helmet organization adobe systems incorporated distribution ba lines 11 i'm looking buy used motorcycle helmet i'm interested full face shield , necessarily helmet piece around chin please email directly janice kendall kendall adobe com ! decwrl sun ! adobe ! kendall onward thru fog ! \( tm \) willie 's \( tm \)
davet interceptor cds tek com \( dave tharp cds \) subject v max handling request organization tektronix colorado data systems , englewood , co lines 27 article 1993apr15 222224 1 ntuvax ntu ac sg ba7116326 ntuvax ntu ac sg writes hello ican anyone handson experience riding yamaha v max , pls kindly comment handling cycle world magazine \( 5 93 \) \( usually never says anything bad motorcycle \) max certainly motor , things short short chassis loves straight lines aimed one , nicely stable corners forced one , protests , shaking head , front tire , grinding , generally making known preference straight pavement bumps \? n't like either fork n't bad , though soft enough hard braking shocks , though work short travel , shaft drive swingarm , firm point harshness dave tharp dod 0751 ca n't wear davet interceptor cds tek com mra 151 indian scout , '88 k75s '48 indian chief ahrma 751 brother chief '75 r90s \( 151 \) '72 tr 2b \( 751 \) ama 524737 're built like rocks '65 r50 2 velorex '57 nsu max take knocks , 1936 bmw r12 \( compulsive 's harleys employer idea joiner \) give grief
infante acpub duke edu \( andrew infante \) subject ok , little hasty organization duke university durham , n c lines 16 nntp posting host north1 acpub duke edu apparently last post little , since called around places got quotes less 600 425 liability , course plus , one give car bike 1350 total , ai n't bad wo n't go first place called , 's fer sure andy infante listen everybody says , fact remains '71 bmw r60 5 've got get thing dod 2426 joan sutherland opinions , dammit , nothing anyone else ! ! !
cus cam ac uk \( david \) subject timing organization u cambridge , england lines 4 nntp posting host bootes cus cam ac uk could kind soul tell advance timing revs 1981 special \( bought canada \) thanks
mlb semi harris com \( marvin \) subject sale nntp posting host mlb semi harris com organization harris semiconductor , melbourne fl keywords sale lines 46 selling sportster make room new excellent condition never wrecked abused always garaged 1990 sportster 883 standard \( blue \) factory conversion kit less 8000 miles branch ported polished big valve heads eagle carb eagle cam adjustable pushrods harley performance mufflers tachometer new tires front rear progressive front fork springs harley king queen seat bar everything chromed ring chain fork oil cooler thermostat new die hard battery bike cover price 7000 00 phone hm 407 254 wk 407 724 melbourne , florida
fester island com \( mike fester \) subject stolen organization usr local rn organization lines 43 article jpolito sysgem1 encore com jpolito sysgem1 encore com \( jonathan polito \) writes article 1993apr15 microunity com microunity com \( eric murray \) writes watch often scumbag steals cover , means looking steal bike case , faded cover stolen bmw r100rs stashed apartment visible street evidently decided beemer n't worth stealing , try next night steal honda hurricane 600 parked next apartment building neighbor heard called cops know setting , actually one things really good bmw bikes accounts 've heard practically one steals bmws probably similar moto relative exotics since n't large demand parts bike would much easier track seems stolen bikes harleys jap sport bikes well , 'd say 're mostly right , different reasons \( btw , couple years ago , stolen bikes orange county sf 750 gsx 's ninjas \) probably biggest reason bmws n't ripped people buy bmws deal actual bmw dealer , mail order types inventory checked fairly easily law enforcement types , mark usually sufficient keep honest acquiring parts harleys rice rockets , 've got 2 different situations huge aftermarket harley parts , bike parted fairly easily ditto non sport japanese bikes , prices parts high , comparatively , anytime bike goes , plastic usually cracked , expensive replace 's fairly easy , , shop take fairing stolen bike , slap bike repair , repaint , make profit parts , traceable , used , discarded traceable mike disclaimer opiini h h damn ! h h q w q wq wq ! x \? exit x q c \? quitbye ctrlaltdel q q logout save quit ! quit zz zzzzzz vi man vi l c e x \? help helpquit ! ! man help c c e ! help exit \? quit \? q ctrlshftdel hey , stop l1a
robinson cogsci berkeley edu \( michael robinson \) subject passenger helmet sizing organization institute cognitive studies , u c berkeley lines 32 nntp posting host cogsci berkeley edu article d0i sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes article 211353 mavenry altcit eskimo com , maven mavenry altcit eskimo com \( norman hamer \) writes question day passenger helmets , n't know certain 's gonna ride \( like say meet church meeting , yeah , 's ticket \) guidelines \? pick another shoei size backup helmet \( xl \) , maybe get inexpensive one smaller size accomodate likely passenger \? primary concern protecting passenger event crash , fitted helmet size primary concern complying stupid helmet laws , carry real big spare \( put big small head big helmet , small one \) shopping passenger helmet , noticed many cases external dimensions helmets xl difference amount inside padding solution buy large helmet , construct removable liner sheet 5 closed cell foam \( glued inside surface \) result reasonably snug fit smallest headed pillion liner , comfortable fit largest headed pillion liner everyone else gets best fit michael robinson uucp ucbvax ! cogsci ! robinson internet robinson cogsci berkeley edu
tim intrepid gsfc nasa gov \( tim \) subject bmw moa members read ! organization nasa goddard space flight center greenbelt , md usa lines 18 bill ranck writes new bmw owner thinking signing moa , right beginning look suspiciously like throwing money rathole guys sort let know bill ranck \( 703 \) 231 9503 bill ranck vt edu computing center , virginia polytchnic inst state univ , blacksburg , va ditto tim
gharriso hpcc01 corp hp com \( graeme harrison \) subject used bikes , east vs west organization hp corporate notes server lines 16 hpcc01 rec motorcycles gold gvg tek com \( grover cleveland \) 9 07 apr 14 , 1993 shop bike sacramento bay area prices always much higher elsewhere state gc affirmative ! check sacramento bee , fresno bee , , stockton , newspapers prices motos classifieds large main public library ought number town papers graeme harrison , hewlett packard co , communications components division , 350 w rd , san jose , ca 95131 \( gharriso hpcc01 corp hp com \) dod 649
lisa alex com \( lisa rowlands \) return path news subject paint jobs uk nntp posting host baldrick organization alex technologies ltd , london , england lines 11 anyone recommend good place reasonably priced bike paint jobs , preferably essentially london area thanks lisa rowlands alex technologies ltd cp house 97 107 uxbridge road tel 44 \( 0 \) 81 566 fax 44 \( 0 \) 81 566 london email lisa alex com w5
davide dcs qmw ac uk \( dave edmondson \) subject happy easter ! organization computer science dept , qmw , university london x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 37 nick pettefar \( npet bnr ca \) wrote kevinh , tue , 20 apr 1993 13 23 01 gmt wibbled jonathan quist yes , 's minor blasphemy u companies would \? \? likes , jaguar , \( sob \) lotus 's outright sacrilege rr non british ownership 's fundamental thing lotus looks set management gm n't happy elan late pricey write elan development costs may able sell sensible price think legal clause rr name , regardless owns must british company owner e ba sell company name kevinh hasler ascom ch n't believe ba anything rr 's seperate company rr aero engine company 's vickers rolls royce cars yes kevin posts , morgan use sliding pillar front suspension ob bike \( long bleeding last \) pettefar get mail address list \? dave david edmondson davide dcs qmw ac uk queen mary westfield college dod guzzi le mans 1000 means end horse drawn zeppelin
tcora pica army mil \( tom coradeschi \) subject observation helmets organization elect armts div , us army armt rde ctr , picatinny arsenal , nj lines 17 nntp posting host b329 gator 3 pica army mil maven mavenry altcit eskimo com \( norman hamer \) wrote grf dropped shoei rf 200 seat bike trying rock onto 's centerstand , chipped heck paint gravity 'll never let , er , er lesson put helmet ground head put ground , n't gonna fall ground put head , well tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet like herd performing elephants diarrhea massive , difficult redirect , awe inspiring , entertaining , source mind boggling amounts excrement least expect gene spafford , 1992
tcora pica army mil \( tom coradeschi \) subject live free , quietly , die organization elect armts div , us army armt rde ctr , picatinny arsenal , nj lines 24 nntp posting host b329 gator 3 pica army mil mcguire cs utexas edu \( tommy marcus mcguire \) wrote egreen east sun com writes tjohnson tazmanian prime com \( tod johnson \( 617 \) 275 1800 x2317 \) writes sure horns hand already throttle get many feet bike going 55mph goes 30 seconds long would take push horn button \? \? answer 161 33 feet try something like 24 2 feet right rom numbers \( easy remember \) 100 mph 150 ft sec tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet like herd performing elephants diarrhea massive , difficult redirect , awe inspiring , entertaining , source mind boggling amounts excrement least expect gene spafford , 1992
tcora pica army mil \( tom coradeschi \) subject moa stuff like ra organization elect armts div , us army armt rde ctr , picatinny arsenal , nj lines 20 nntp posting host b329 gator 3 pica army mil article world std com , artc world std com \( art campbell \) wrote ok 've got contested election inept leadership question history bmw organization lead formation something going oa years ago precipitated formation two competing owner 's groups \? yep started \( nominally \) simultaneously start \( ie , sources correct , one guy involved start groups true \? \) tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet like herd performing elephants diarrhea massive , difficult redirect , awe inspiring , entertaining , source mind boggling amounts excrement least expect gene spafford , 1992
virginia edu \( christopher douglas \) subject bikes contacts organization university virginia lines 5 best thing get full face , even cheap brain bucket n't think full face important took spill ended sliding 20 feet face plus , also worries contacts
virginia edu \( christopher douglas \) subject looking movies w bikes organization university virginia lines 4 's also billy jack , wild one , bandit \( jerry reed runs truck motorcycle gangs bikes \) , video tape documentary hell 's angels found rental store
mjs sys uea ac uk \( mike sixsmith \) subject wanted advice new cylist organization university east anglia lines 9 angel levine writes 's exactly dangerous looks anyone particular mind jody \? \)
mjs sys uea ac uk \( mike sixsmith \) subject countersteering , know know question \? organization university east anglia distribution net lines 22 lotto harvard edu \( jerry lotto \) writes running thread need understand countersteering seen lot opinion , much basis fact study bottom line understanding ability swerve essentially absent among accident involved riders hurt study average rider identify countersteering alone provides primary input effect motorcycle lean , even many years practice would agree entirely three paragraphs hurt study make distinction ability swerve failure swerve \? accidents near accidents 've seen , riders almost always stand brakes hard dare , simply instinct brake face danger strong rides everything else hard braking swerving tend mutually exclusive hurt draw conclusions one generally preferable \?
mjs sys uea ac uk \( mike sixsmith \) subject looking women 's motorcycle helmet organization university east anglia distribution ba lines 19 lisa alex com \( lisa rowlands \) writes hi janice n't know i'm unduly cautious , would n't buy used helmet , normal road use anyway never really know 's happened past life ! fun , lisa rowlands 'll second ! ! saw list somewhere stuff unwise buy secondhand stuff like parachutes , toilet paper , condoms motorcycle helmets seriously though , take risk \? extremely unlikely get good fitting secondhand helmet , cos life n't work like ! lisa says , never know 's
wayne orwig atlantaga ncr com \( wayne orwig \) subject cb750 c flames exhaust ! ! ! ! lines 21 nntp posting host worwig atlantaga ncr com organization ncr corporation x newsreader ftpnuz \( dos \) v1 0 article ux1 cso uiuc edu ux1 cso uiuc edu \( mike \) says hi , 82 cb750 custom replaced cylinder head gasket put back together , would n't idle running 2 3 cylinders would backfire spit flames exhaust right side exhaust 4 2 mac bought new plugs today runs rough still wo n't idle quite sure fine tune knobs carbs messed checked timing , fine , advanced little n't help assume carbs need buy kit \? , kit best price suggestions \? thanks advance mike sounds like got cam timing
wayne orwig atlantaga ncr com \( wayne orwig \) subject coolant lines 20 nntp posting host worwig atlantaga ncr com organization ncr corporation x newsreader ftpnuz \( dos \) v1 0 article 1993apr15 research nj nec com behanna syl nj nec com \( chris behanna \) says motorcycles liquid cooled persuasion , brand coolant use \? looking aluminum safe coolant , preferably phosphate free , preferably cheaper 13 gallon \( believe kaw dealer wants 4 95 quart official blessed holy kawasaki coolant ! ! ! way i'm paying \) thanks , chris behanna dod 114 1983 h fxwg wide glide jubilee 's red lady behanna syl nj nec com 1975 cb360t baby bike disclaimer would nec 1991 zx 11 needs name agree anyway \? raised pack wild corn dogs thought aluminum safe would like know since must tear kawasaki \( must add \)
berkeley ca us \( andrew scott \) subject opinion means organization san jose , california , home perverted hackers lines 10 infante acpub duke edu \( andrew infante \) writes since occurance , 've paid many dollars renumerance , taken drunk class , , yes , listened self righteous assholes like think rest world 've never little dd suaree devil made !
lotto laura harvard edu \( jerry lotto \) subject countersteering , know know question \? organization chemistry dept , harvard university lines 32 distribution net nntp posting host laura harvard edu reply mjs sys uea ac uk 's message wed , 21 apr 1993 12 30 30 gmt wed , 21 apr 1993 12 30 30 gmt , mjs sys uea ac uk \( mike sixsmith \) said mike lotto harvard edu \( jerry lotto \) writes understanding ability swerve essentially absent among accident involved riders hurt study mike would agree entirely three paragraphs hurt mike study make distinction ability swerve failure mike swerve \? yes , specifically ability understanding technique absent made lot progress rider education responsibility last ten twenty years still amazed anytime teach erc many people many year riding experience discover countersteering cornering swerving mike everything else hard braking swerving tend mutually exclusive mike hurt draw conclusions one generally mike preferable \? specific cited hurt study formal street strategy , like example , important component rider education curriculum specific skills emergency braking , cornering swerving must taught practiced well , significant 35 rider nothing confronted potential accident , another third collided fell result rider error choice specific maneuver much less significant outcome early detection proper execution effective jerry lotto lotto harvard edu , , , ama , dod 18 chemistry dept , harvard univ 's harley , 'll ride want
npet bnr ca \( nick pettefar \) subject johs dhhalden \( 3 \) last nntp posting host bmdhh299 organization bnr europe ltd , maidenhead , uk x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 37 pete young , tue , 20 apr 93 08 29 21 gmt wibbled nick pettefar \( npet bnr ca \) wrote tsk , tsk , tsk another newbie bites dust , eh \? 'll learn newbie sorry disappoint , far internet goes baghdad still bag bit funny \? people made group interesting 3 4 years ago longer around time make random sweep week hence missed thread i'm terribly sorry based previous postings , apparently devoid humour , sarcasm , wit , apparent capacity walk chew gum time , assumed serious mea culpa know , know subtlety sort , know , subtle , n't still , 's nice see bnr well afford contractors sit read news day 's foreign firms touchy newbie , 's matter , much \? nick \( considerate biker \) dod 1069 concise oxford none gum m'lud nick pettefar , contractor large teneo tuus intervallum cuurrently incarcerated bnr , npet bnr ca '86 bmw k100rs kay maidenhead , united kingdom pres pbwasoh \( uk \) , bs 0002 \(
npet bnr ca \( nick pettefar \) subject fortune guzzler barred bars ! nntp posting host bmdhh299 organization bnr europe ltd , maidenhead , uk x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 44 charles parr , tue , 20 apr 93 21 25 10 gmt wibbled article 1993apr19 4057 bnr ca npet bnr ca \( nick pettefar \) writes satan rode bike \( \? \) would stop help \? course ! riders stick together , know besides , 'd stop satan , way , rides vincent god jesus rides rz350 , angels get , demons ride know , talk teeth regards , charles dod0 001 rz350 within span last weeks heard elements separate threads , conjoined time , struck together form new chord within hollow echoing gourd unknown net person think vincent wrong sort bike satan ride honda brought \( look bike magazine \) looks evil satan would hesitate ride 17 hole dms , levi black bomber jacket i'm sure helmet , oh , know , one darth vader ones go satan anybody seen lately \? \? god would ride vincent white lightning injection 'd wear one piece leather suit matching boots , helmet gloves nick \( righteous biker \) dod 1069 concise oxford new \( non leaky \) gearbox m'lud nick pettefar , contractor large teneo tuus intervallum cuurrently incarcerated bnr , npet bnr ca '86 bmw k100rs kay maidenhead , united kingdom pres pbwasoh \( uk \) , bs 0002 \(
wrs wslack uucp \( bill slack \) subject shaft drives wheelies distribution world organization w r slack lines 20 various posts shafties ca n't wheelies mike imposible due shaft effect centripital effects rotating shaft counteract tendency front wheel lift ground good point john buddy mine told thing bmw r80gs dumped clutch 5 , \( hey , ito nly revved 7 \) know \? right ! uh , folks , shaft n't diddleysquatpoop get front wheel ground 5 , ferchrissake ! bill wrs gozer mv com \( bill slack \) dod 430 tears shed vain every word lost rumble engine smoke exhaust ! oo
wayne orwig atlantaga ncr com \( wayne orwig \) subject shaft drives wheelies lines 21 nntp posting host worwig atlantaga ncr com organization ncr corporation x newsreader ftpnuz \( dos \) v1 0 article news ysu edu ak296 yfn ysu edu \( john r daker \) says previous article , xlyx vax5 cit cornell edu \( \) says mike terry asks possible wheelie motorcycle shaft drive \? mike imposible due shaft effect centripital effects rotating shaft counteract tendency front wheel lift ground dod 650 darkman well last two motorcycles shaft driven wheelie rear gear climb ring gear lift rear gives odd feel , still wheelies
asphaug lpl arizona edu \( erik asphaug x2773 \) subject sale 550 zephyr summary tucson area , moving bay area organization lunar planetary laboratory , tucson az lines 24 hi boys girls bought beemer r80gs realized abruptly grad student first sold truck yesterday need sell zephyr sell month , great insurance tags run couple weeks otherwise 'll tag insure see happens 's sweet bike 6100 miles , almost highway \( az wy co last summer , plus great rides border purchased new exactly one year ago \( apr '92 \) , 's '90 model good fairing luggage rack red clean perfect maintenance , bullshit 'll spare details say \( 1 \) want keep , \( 2 \) somebody 5 fit like charm bike big people , small bike standard , upright positioning good looking smooth power , great brakes , good karma erik b h e b k e dod 88888 asphaug hindmost lpl arizona edu '90 kawi 550 zephyr \( erik asphaug \) '86 bmw r80gs u l h e r e r
clarke bdrc bd com \( richard clarke \) subject boom ! dog attack ! organization becton dickinson research center r p nc usa lines 27 nntp posting host bdrc bd com eagerly await comment ice next door makes habit cage driveway sees coming probably hits , \( made mistake waving neighbor sort , \) riding downhill 60mph local backroad brown came flashing brush well 30mph , intercept course front wheel dog started top hill heard still lead hit road dog approaching left , running full tilt get bike side road went rover looking back calculate final trajectory bad n't notice car approaching 50 mph direction got closeup view poor canine friend 's noggin front bumper , asphalt , getting front tire managed pretty good , impact \( peripheral imminent doom \? \) guess driver n't see probably would lane actually got headed back home , n't seen since sometimes fate sees rick
vm temple edu subject sale \( sigh \) organization temple university lines 34 nntp posting host vm temple edu x newsreader nnr vm 1 3 2 sale \( reluctantly \) classic bike 1972 yamaha xs 2 650 twin 6000 original miles always stored inside 1979 front end aftermarket steering head bearings racer 's supply rear bronze swingarm bushings , chain , 1 4 fairing headlight cutout , one racing seat , bars , stacks twin carbs also original seat tank original cherry white paint scratches , dents dings needs new exhaust original finally discarded process making kenney roberts tt replica cafe racer graduate school , marriage , child precluded effort wife would love unload need assembly , think everything 'll also throw manuals , receipts , collection society newsletters relevant mag articles great fun , classic bike 2k invested consider reasonable offers timothy j , ph director , departments urology anatomy cell biology temple university school medicine 3400 north broad st philadelphia , pa \( voice data \) 215 221 \( voice \) 21 221 \( fax \) 21 221 internet vm temple edu bitnet bitnet icbm 39 57 75 09 w
nelson seahunt imat com \( michael nelson \) subject boom ! dog attack ! nntp posting host seahunt imat com organization seahunt , san francisco ca lines 15 article 97 uupcb compdyn questor org ryan cousineau compdyn questor org \( ryan cousineau \) writes interestingly , one thing never happened bike never moved course unfortunately , one negative impaired sentence says \( believe \) , bike move course course \) michael michael nelson 1993 cbr900rr internet nelson seahunt imat com dod 0735
ant palm21 cray com \( tony jones \) subject cobra locks lines 18 nntp posting host palm21 organization cray research inc , eagan , mn x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 distribution usa steve bunis se southwest chicago \( doc webrider central sun com \) wrote posting alt best methods securing motorcycle got several responses referring cobra lock \( described \) anyone come across store carrying lock chicago area \? feedback someone used \? new yamaha cyclelok \? photo motorcyclist , looks hardened steel kryptonite u lock , except folds five places seems extend far enough lock rear tire tube parking sign similar anyone experience , easy attack lock jointed sections \? tony
davet interceptor cds tek com \( dave tharp cds \) subject happy easter ! organization tektronix colorado data systems , englewood , co lines 17 article 1993apr15 i88 isc com jeq lachman com \( jonathan e quist \) writes rolls royce owned non british firm \? ye gods , would end civilization know \? ford owns aston martin jaguar , general motors owns lotus vauxhall rover owned 20 honda dave tharp dod 0751 ca n't wear davet interceptor cds tek com mra 151 indian scout , '88 k75s '48 indian chief ahrma 751 brother chief '75 r90s \( 151 \) '72 tr 2b \( 751 \) ama 524737 're built like rocks '65 r50 2 velorex '57 nsu max take knocks , 1936 bmw r12 \( compulsive 's harleys employer idea joiner \) give grief
rwf2 ns1 cc lehigh edu \( robert william fusi \) subject bike advice organization lehigh university lines 11 '89 kawasaki kx 80 mint condition starts first kick every time bike , considering selling told ask around 900 sound right higher lower \? also , looking used zx 7 much spend , year look get bike without paying arm leg \? \? \? \? thanks help ! rob fusi rwf2 lehigh edu
irwin cmptrc lonestar org \( irwin arnstein \) subject bmwmoa controversy distribution usa organization computrac inc , richardson tx keywords bmwmoa board , history lines 24 article 1993apr15 pb2esac uucp pb2esac uucp \( peter ahrens \) writes article 1095 rider uucp joe rider cactus org writes vech ra msstate edu \( craig vechorik \) writes good ol boys long agree current board garbage , voting would simply trading one form trash another opponents selections get equal time \? joe , n't post really think \? rational bmwmoa folks left , may rest us please brief summary current state affairs esteemed organization , together historical outline got \? know dod member like bikes clubs politics b real turn tuba \( irwin \) honk therefore computrac richardson , tx irwin cmptrc lonestar org dod 0826 \( r75 6 \)
nuet ke pts mot com \( keith nuetzman x3153 p7625 \) subject test nntp posting host 145 4 54 110 reply nuet ke pts mot com organization paging wireless data group lines 2 test
ryan cousineau compdyn questor org \( ryan cousineau \) subject bat helmet reply ryan cousineau compdyn questor org \( ryan cousineau \) distribution world organization computer dynamics vancouver b c \( 604 \) 986 9937 \( 604 \) 255 9937 lines 49 cbd christopher bradley andrew cmu edu cbd 's nothing compared \( ahem \) unique helmet cbd design seen new animated series huge opening cbd mouth , topped world 's tiniest enormous mouth cbd opening batman 's helmet probably cuts 12 degrees cbd unrestricted vision helmet like , might better cbd leather cap mask thingy cbd c'mon , batman n't need see 's batman cbd notice takes bike snow rain \? let 's see far weird helmet knee corners \( thanks , cookson , \? hidden bat pucks \? \) , takes bike snow rain also , lets robin ride ! think could used bat mom would made getting license lot easier ! 's trend stylish helmet , stylish knee dragging , rides stylish cartoon hmm could 're dealing veritable airborne mammalian \? dare say , bat squid \? \? \( huh \? bat squid \? \) adds let 's make b man honorary dod dude needs dod sticker actually , anyone address batman 's current artists , comic book animated series \? 'll write ask batman would like become honorary denizen ! yeah ! special kotl precedent imaginary member imaginary motorcycle \? seen computers bat cave , think safely assume also imaginary internet access ryan cousinetc 1982 yamaha vision xz550 black pig inverness live ride kotrb 1958 ajs 500 c king rat work dod 0863 'd squid could afford bike flame ryan cousineau compdyn questor org vancouver , bc , canada live slmr 2 1a \( virtual \) reality check bounced computer dynamics bbs 604 255 9937 \( hst \) 604 986 9937 \( v32 \) vancouver , bc , canada easy access , low rates , friendly sysop
ryan cousineau compdyn questor org \( ryan cousineau \) subject boom ! dog attack ! reply ryan cousineau compdyn questor org \( ryan cousineau \) distribution world organization computer dynamics vancouver b c \( 604 \) 986 9937 \( 604 \) 255 9937 lines 59 previous posting dog attacks must generated bad karma something 've weathered attempted dog attacks using approved method slow screw dog 's triangulation target , take laugh dog , far behind time , n't work n't time riding hill leading house , encountered liver white springer spaniel \( relation springer softail , springer spagthorpe , close relation spagthorpe viking \) actually , dog encountered intent harm digress riding near \( \) centerline roughly 30 foot wide road , forty sixty clicks \( 30 mph velocity impaired \) dog shot behind left side road high speed later learned accelerating front porch , thirty feet away , heading gently approach side road saw dog , could say , boom ! took dog left leg , marks bike leg driven side bike considerable force , making permanent marks plastic parts bike , cracking one panel think saw dog spin around looked back , memory moment hazy next turned around , picked likely looking house woman explained dog seriously hurt \( cut mouth \) hoped hurt either could feel pain shin , expected cool purple welt form soon sadly , i'm left tender shin , cool battle scars ! interestingly , one thing never happened bike never moved course inconsiderable impact push bike course , cause put bike control gut reaction sudden impact delayed pain may helped , n't feel sudden sharp pain remember worries accident n't think could prevented except traveling much slower necessarily unreasonable suggestion residential area , riding around speed limit worry would happened car instead dog , console thought would take truly insane bdi cager whip blind driveway 15 30 mph matter , many driveways long enough car hit 30 mph end \? eagerly await comment ryan cousinetc 1982 yamaha vision xz550 black pig inverness live ride kotrb 1958 ajs 500 c king rat work dod 0863 'd squid could afford bike flame ryan cousineau compdyn questor org vancouver , bc , canada live slmr 2 1a 's hurt dammit jim , i'm doctor oh , right computer dynamics bbs 604 255 9937 \( hst \) 604 986 9937 \( v32 \) vancouver , bc , canada easy access , low rates , friendly sysop
ray unisql uucp \( ray shea \) subject cats dogs \? \? \? ! organization unisql , inc , austin , texas , usa lines 17 article 1993apr14 cbnewsj cb att com cbnewsj cb att com \( james bessette \) writes article hplsla hp com kens hplsla hp com \( ken snyder \) writes ps also heard dog breeder chains bicycles motorcycles produced high frequency dogs loved chase ask breeder also chase bmws also squeaky bmw riders ray shea wound like effective method unisql , inc leah unisql ! ray cs utexas edu days miss boon real bad dod 0372 team twinkie '88 hawk gt
jrwaters eos ncsu edu \( jack rogers waters \) subject got bike ! \( wanted advice cb900c purchase \) keywords cb900c , purchase , advice organization north carolina state university , project eos lines 33 article 1993apr16 mit edu jburnside mit edu \( jamie w burnside \) writes article 1993apr16 ncsu edu , jrwaters eos ncsu edu \( jack rogers waters \) writes reletively new reader , quite impressed usefull info available newsgroup would ask get dod number , 'll probably busy riding \) count \? yes thought cat dod faq mailx hahahha jburnside mit edu \( waiting press return \) hey , c'mon guys \( gals \) , chose words carefully even tried get faq 's straight n't holler ! around , even mentioning dod without number sig get soundly notice , however , faq careful monk , , waiting press return jack waters ii dod 1919 n't fear thief night one comes afternoon , i'm still asleep , worry
mdennie xerox com \( matt dennie \) subject flashing anyone \? keywords flashing organization xerox 1993apr15 news columbia edu rdc8 cunixf cc columbia edu \( robert castro \) writes hello , bike hazard lights \( front back turn signals flash \) since live nj commute nyc number tolls one must pay route arriving toll booth switch hazards warn motorists taking longer 2 1 2 seconds make transaction taking gloves , getting money coin changer pocket , making transaction , putting gloves back takes little time average cager takes make transaction paying toll also notice cagers tend get message usually go another booth question , good bad thing \? others tend \? curious rob castro email rdc8 cunixf cc columbia edu live today 1983 kz550ltd phone \( 212 \) 854 7617 today live ! dod nyc 1 new york , new york , usa rc \( tm \) beleive ny state considered eliminating tolls motor cycles based simply fact motos clog toll mario realized foolishness trading hundred k `s year relief traffic congestion bad take court justice job thought might rid forever matt dennie internet xerox com xerox corporation , rochester , ny \( usa \) reaching consensus group often confused finding right answer norman maier
boi hp com \( edward walsh \) subject guzzi 850 tires , plus fairing question organization hewlett packard boise , idaho x newsreader tin 1 1 pl4 lines 59 question tires guzzi '75 850 tires bought old cracked owners manual \( yet \) , tires listed haynes manual front , 3 , 50 h 18 rear 4 10 h 18 , pressures recommended 26 front 33 rear oddly , pressure tire 3 listed 29 psi instead anyone know reason \? know though , pressure run recommended manufacturer new tires purchase real question old tires bike front , metzler touring special , 4 10 h 18 , rear avon roadrunner 4 70 h 18 , \( 120 90 \) h 18 marked tire larger listed haynes manual owners manual recommend , common go one size bike \? also , first motorcycle comments various manufacturers inner tube qualities \? sizes inches \( except additional mark current rear tire \) best metric match \? local bmw dealer thought 100 90 h 18 front 120 90 h 18 back also happens good getting close matching mail order prices thinking going metzler me33 laser \( possibly comp k \) front back , mbs variety possible \( longer lasting system \) already use me33 vision fj front , like , thought shaft drive behavior torque guzzi might give predictable back end control sliding behavior might , well giving much better tire milage life comments \? friend told thought bike rims good , relatively soft delicate wish mount tires first time , aside warning shop careful , comments make \? hav n't looked rim check make yet , marked told late yesterday hav n't chance check rim type another note remove ugly \( good shape anyone want \? \) fairing , run without windscreen , eventually would like simple rounded style quarter fairing could fork handlebar mounted suggestions \? thing frame mounted quarter fairing style bike \? lower bars clip ons \? would like restore bike good condition runner modern updates , historically exactly accurate still reflect relatively well representation style \( yes know picky , period really predates bike bike potential look \) edward walsh hewlett packard company boi hp com disk memory division , \( 208 \) 323 p box 15 boise , idaho \( vision \) dod 98 edward walsh hewlett packard company boi hp com disk memory division , \( 208 \) 396 p box 15 boise , idaho \( vision \) dod 98
dwarner ub com \( dave warner \) subject \( future flames \) summary i'm outta lines 32 nntp posting host 128 203 2 156 organization ungermann bass sse , begin 6 week 15 minutes six wonderful weeks riding , phones email wo n't way check mail \( setup vacation agent , sh ! \) , though dial get newsfeed , \( dont ask \) , outstanding cfc 's things , please try compuserve address compuserve com anybody wants weekday rides around ba , send mail post 'll thinking stuck front terminals , monkeys might fly butt ride safe , dave sense ain't common dave warner opinions unlikely shared ama hog dod 870 employer anyone else dwarner ub com signature file dwarner milo ub com compuserve com '93 '71 \( stolen \)
mbeaving bnr ca \( michael beavington \) subject boom ! dog attack ! nntp posting host bmerh824 reply mbeaving bnr ca organization bnr ottawa , dms software design lines 28 article clarke 5 bdrc bd com , clarke bdrc bd com \( richard clarke \) writes final trajectory bad n't notice car approaching 50 mph direction got closeup view poor canine friend 's noggin front bumper , asphalt , getting front tire managed pretty good , impact \( peripheral imminent doom \? \) guess driver n't see probably would lane actually got headed back home , n't seen since thing everyday dog would chase bicycle owners thought cute even got moto , stupid dog would thing one day , coming home opposite lane teeth ran get played momentum sharing 73 dodge pick owners tried blame driving street lived wierd town beav mike beavington ottawa , ont , canada dod 9733 seca 400 seca 400 rz350 v65sabre \( 1994 gts1000 ca n't afford '93 \) mbeaving bnr ca parking spaces \? n't need parking spaces !
mbeaving bnr ca \( beavington \) subject insurance lotsa points nntp posting host bmerh824 reply mbeaving bnr ca organization bnr ottawa , dms software design lines 15 article news duke edu , infante acpub duke edu \( andrew infante \) writes well , looks like i'm f cked insurance dwi 91 beemer , rec vehicle , 'll cost almost 1200 bucks insure year \? go drink drive , pay smiley mike beavington mbeaving bnr ca opinions
mbeaving bnr ca \( michael beavington \) subject ok , little hasty nntp posting host bmerh824 reply mbeaving bnr ca organization bnr ottawa , dms software design lines 18 article news duke edu , infante acpub duke edu \( andrew infante \) writes apparently last post little , since called around places got quotes less 600 425 liability , course plus , one give car bike 1350 total , ai n't bad wo n't go first place called , 's fer sure nevertheless , dwi f serious hope 've got brains mike beavington mbeaving bnr ca opinions
ai598 cleveland freenet edu \( mike sturdevant \) subject bikes vs horses \( insect organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 27 reply ai598 cleveland freenet edu \( mike sturdevant \) nntp posting host slc4 ins cwru edu previous article , egreen east sun com \( ed green pixel cruncher \) says article sda usenet ins cwru edu , ai598 cleveland freenet edu \( mike sturdevant \) writes people train years jump horse 2 feet wear tails useless helmets , turns , everybody 's serious horses bunch weenie fashion helmets suck i'm wearing shoei mountain bike helmet fuck em i'm permanently injured oops late nah , still walk go fast take chances mike
neal cmptrc lonestar org \( neal howard \) subject splitfires help spagthorpe diesels \? keywords using splitfire plugs performance distribution rec motorcycles organization computrac inc , richardson tx lines 34 article news cso uiuc edu wcd82671 uxa cso uiuc edu \( daniel warren c \) writes earlier , reading net using splitfire plugs one guy thinking almost everybody shot hell well , saw one think someone said show team used split fires well , 's additional insight theories splitfire plugs boost us cages splitfires originally made burn fuel efficiently increased power 4x4 cages well , guys , splitfires n't know \( i'm trying catch somebody \) , splitfires help twins splitfires work mainly providing less spark combustion chamber engine 's cylinder head design benefit , splitfires yield slight performance increase , noticeably lower rpm range torque splitfires n't squat 1992 gmc pickup \( 4 3l v6 \) give noticeable performance boost 1991 harley sportster 1200 best friend 's 1986 sportster 883 folks know 've tried motors ca n't tell performance boost plain plugs \( interesting since xlh big twin combustion chambers pretty much shape , different sizes \) two friends harleys swear splitfires , 'd dual plug instead since respond well enough dual plugs make machine work extra ignition system worth expense \( plus look really cool spark plug side head \) neal howard '91 xlh 1200 dod 686 computrac , inc \( richardson , tx \) doh 0000001200 355o33 neal cmptrc lonestar org std disclaimer opinions mine , computrac 's let us learn dream , gentlemen , perhaps shall learn truth august kekule' \( 1890 \)
infante acpub duke edu \( andrew infante \) subject definition two \? distribution usa organization duke university durham , n c lines 24 nntp posting host north1 acpub duke edu following logic could describe two transition period two coming rest high low side \? otherwise sounds pretty good \) richard pierson e06584 vnet 908 699 6063 perhaps 's referring wife child sitting sidecar next one moto \? \) anyone ever heard game called \? \( 's drinking game , older \) andy infante listen everybody says , fact remains '71 bmw r60 5 've got get thing dod 2426 joan sutherland opinions , dammit , nothing anyone else ! ! !
infante acpub duke edu \( andrew infante \) subject rim needed keywords either , keep opinions organization duke university durham , n c lines 46 nntp posting host north1 acpub duke edu article 1993apr14 news columbia edu twang cunixf cc columbia edu \( tony wang \) writes article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu \( andrew infante \) writes article 1993apr13 walter bellcore com gomer bellcore com \( paul \) writes also , law something requires nyc keep 's street empty potholes greater certain depth \? \( rather bike \) ! ! ! ! 's good one ! ! really , stop ! ca n't breathe ! ! bite tongue us actually ride nyc daily basis could live without potholes 'll ruin flavor 's enough dodge taxis , buses , , bicycle messengers , bdi 's block block basis potholes always makes sudden randomness makes much fun besides , else think allows constantly test panic braking , shocks , dirt riding abilities city streets smooth asphalt canyon n't know 're missing 8 \) laughing law part 've driven thru , know 're talking 'bout \) durham , nc better \( well , maybe little bit anyway , nc dot takes money road taxes puts pockets pockets guys building large need roads back fixing roads , hey , local paper report last summer , boy , glad n't work dot , 'cause got , wonder lost jobs \? ed \? got idea \? \) andy infante listen everybody says , fact remains '71 bmw r60 5 've got get thing dod 2426 joan sutherland opinions , dammit , nothing anyone else ! ! !
wallich ncd com \( ken wallich \) subject aerostitch 1 2 piece \? distribution rec organization organized , would reading news \? lines 49 nntp posting host article 1993apr14 vax5 cit cornell edu na4 vax5 cit cornell edu writes request opinions better one piece aerostitch two piece aerostitch \? like everyone else , ended getting two different sizes top bottom top 46l bottom bottom , waist far large , thighs fit right \( 46 better waist , cut circulation legs , large , muscular thighs , , n't use get \) jacket fits ok chest , slightly snug waist , small arms ca n't imagine finding one piece size would fit correctly , even 2 piece 's problems \( strange , since v pilot jacket fits great , tried matching pants , fit like glove well \) assume models aero design uses design suits way different us real folks also , even though 's related , look pretty damn wierd walking around tops running 've gotten really suspicious looks , lot store wearing whole suit , since ca n't fit top bottom motorcycle storage device yet devised \( except trunk sidecar rig \) two piece , unzip pants \( generally leave two pieces together , primarily pants fall unless pull cheesy elastic belt type band real tight \) , stuff one bmw saddlebags \( pants fit \) , run wearing jacket actually , know 'll running , wear v pilot jacket , 's far crash protection , 'd say suits probably equal seems weather protection , anything 2 piece provides little jacket overlapping pants 3 inches 2 piece probably little less comfortable around waist , extra layer stuff , maybe 'd vote two piece despite slightly odd fit , still find suit versatile piece riding clothing would n't go long distance without ken wallich wallich ncd com ken wallich com al org decwrl ! vixie ! amber ! ken ken wallich wallich ncd com ken wallich com al org decwrl ! vixie ! amber ! ken
cbrooks ms uky edu \( clayton brooks \) subject changing sprocket ratios \( 79 honda cb750 \) organization university kentucky , dept math sciences lines 15 karish gondwana stanford edu \( chuck karish \) writes 's twin cam , right \? yep think 's cb750 630 chain 14 years , 's finally stretching replace zone honda 750s n't widest power bands sigh know know clayton brooks , , ` heart cbrooks ms uky edu 722 pot u , ' blue cbrooks ukma bitnet lex ky , grass rutgers , uunet ! ukma ! cbrooks 606 257 \( , '' bourbon country ama maa ams dod
nrmendel unix amherst edu \( nathaniel mendell \) subject bike advice organization amherst college x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl7 lines 11 ummm bikes \? , 'd suggest look '89 zx 7 , since 90 horsepower , whereas '90 100 might bit much sincerely , nathaniel zx 10 dod 0812 ama
shz mare att com \( keeper 'tude \) subject riceburner respect organization office 'tude licensing nntp posting host binky lines 17 article 1993apr19 research nj nec com , behanna syl nj nec com \( chris behanna \) writes completely different tack , eventual outcome babe vs bad mouthed biker \? thought posted last year women came court three witnesses two women car one neighbor heard shouting lawyer n't like odds since multiple complaints ways judge history finding everyone guilty least something , convinced us \( came without lawyer \) drop everything net result 500 bill 35 court costs consolation trouble scraping together 35 500 quite one week 's beer money roid
shz mare att com \( keeper 'tude \) subject riceburner respect organization office 'tude licensing nntp posting host binky lines 8 article c5qqxp ie1 cbmvax cbm commodore com , hartzler cbmvax cbm commodore com \( jerry hartzler cats \) writes duck squids n't wave , return waves ever , even excuse ignoramus , edu riceburner brain roid
ron hpfcso fc hp com \( ron miller \) subject motorcycle detailing tip 18 organization hewlett packard , fort collins , co , usa lines 12 rubbing compound mean 's n't work \? dod magic choice plastic stuff ron miller dod 693
organization ryerson polytechnical institute mike ryevm ryerson ca subject cobra locks distribution usa lines 33 greetings netters , steve writes cobra locks well mother locks friday 16th april took possesion cobra links lock , 1 diameter special order weighs lot carry home digging shoulder two blocks currently kryptonite rock lock front wheel , hd steering lock , master lock cover two front spokes , cobra links rear swing arm around post underground parking garage next friday 30th appointment alarm installed bike travel cobra links cover stay home way also removed plastic mesh cobra links lock end end using bicycle inner tubes \( two \) got bicycle dealer sold cobra links guys really great n't mark price lock much inner tubes free later 1992 fxstc rock 'n roll mike hog ryerson polytechnical institute dod 665 side hell academic computing information centre doh side email ryevm ryerson ca
exb0405 csdvax csd unsw edu au subject extraordinary footpeg engineering article csdvax 1993apr15 organization university new south wales lines 29 okay dod'ers , 's goddamn mystery ya ! today turning 90 degree corner like day , slight difference rough spot right path caused suspension compress mid corner part bike hit ground tangible thunk pulled first opportunity damage bike kawasaki fold upward backward contact ground etc , lower extreme corner peg mounted bank follower , little stud theoretically first bit hit ground 100 banked turn stud mounted footpeg threaded bit 7 mm long , screws threaded hole footpeg mystery stud side bike turned absent i'm fairly sure event damage end footpeg stud would ordinarily fact , thread hole footpeg perfectly intact , evidence something forcefully ripped moments previously okay engineering types , f k explain \? rip tightly fitting steel thread threaded hole \( alloy \) without damaging thread hole \? sort hi tech design kawasaki never mentioned , like end footpeg suddenly changes phase impact , let stud rip , changes back solid \? i'm quite amazed could happened meantime , life goes , without left hand bank follower barry manor dod 620 confused accidental peg
minyos xx rmit oz au \( john edmond \) subject dogs vs bikes article organization royal melbourne institute technology lines 10 nntp posting host minyos xx rmit oz au dogs chase anything moves two dogs love chasing ride also chase car passes , running along sidewalk n't seem go trucks though , size difference must factor also works favour though , exercise quite easily riding 1 2 mile road back times ja \( minyos rmit oz au \)
lusky ccwf cc utexas edu \( jonathan r lusky \) subject kawasaki zx 6 engine needed reply lusky ccwf cc utexas edu \( jonathan r lusky \) distribution usa organization ut sae racing team lines 14 originator lusky sylvester cc utexas edu i'm looking 1990 91 kawasaki zx 6 engine engine , intake , exhaust , ignition , etc preferably central texas area , n't much luck around 'll take whatever get please reply via mail call \( 512 \) 471 one \( really need spare \) thanx jonathan lusky lusky ccwf cc utexas edu turbos nice , 'd rather blown ! 89 jeep wrangler 258 sale ! 79 rx 7 12a holley 67 camaro rs 350
aix rpi edu \( christopher james \) subject forsale 1982 yamaha seca 650 turbo keywords forsale seca turbo nntp posting host aix rpi edu distribution usa lines 17 n't want , need money school bike needs little work n't money details miles mitsubishi turbo beautiful , fast ! one factory bikes kit ! must see ride appreciate fun bike ! asking 700 best offer bike seen , vermont e mail info ! thanks , chris rpi edu
manes magpie linknet com \( steve manes \) subject 1988 bmw k75s sale organization manes associates , nyc x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 10 3500 miles , black leather tank bra , tank bag , corbin seat , metzler 'b' tires garaged pampered ca n't afford continue paying nyc garage fees two bikes one 'em go best offer 4500 takes stephen manes manes magpie linknet com manes associates new york , ny , usa
tony morgan demon co uk \( tony kidson \) subject info sport cruisers distribution world organization modem palace reply tony morgan demon co uk x newsreader simple news 1 90 \( ka9q dis 1 21 \) lines 25 article andrew cmu edu jae cmu edu writes i'm looking sport cruiser factory installed fairings \( full half \) , hard saddle bags , , still sporty look particularly like r100rs k75 rt , k series bmw bikes wondering comparable type bikes produced companies bmw honda st1100 designed honda germany , originally european market , competition bmw series check tony tony kidson pgp 2 2 key request voice 44 81 466 5127 morgan towers , cat move e mail \( order \) morgan road , 've take top tony morgan demon co uk bromley , machine tny cix compulink co uk england br1 3qe honda st1100 dod 0801 100024 301 compuserve com
cdw2t dayhoff med virginia edu \( dances federal rangers \) subject misc buying info needed organization university virginia lines 28 article 1993apr18 1 hamp hampshire edu hamp hampshire edu writes buying guide new used motorcycles \( lists reliability , go buying process , look , etc \) \? cycle world puts one , i'm sure 's objective try talking dealers people hang , well us love give advice pricing guide new used motorcycles \( blue book \) \? bigger banks blue book includes motos ask one rvs books articles riding cross country , motorcycle camping , etc \? could n't help guide motorcycles \? 're reading cliff weston dod '92 seca ii \( tem \) female body beautiful work art , male body hairy seen light day
ivan erich triumf ca \( ivan reid \) subject accident report news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host erich triumf ca organization triumf tri university meson facility lines 36 article prl philips nl , prl philips nl \( owen \) writes article ranck 253 vtvm1 cc vt edu ranck vtvm1 cc vt edu \( wm l ranck \) writes article bnr ca whitton bnr ca \( mark whitton \) writes turns trailer lights hooked truck yep , basic rule never expect believe turn signals completely around , many places , people n't signal , sometimes signals n't working sometimes get left scary bit non availability rear lights living netherlands 've learned reliable indicators red ones go sides people call brake lights light , expect anything occur front \) \( 's dutch though \) however never realised much relied got caught times behind someone whose lights n't work 'd n't bad \( knowing half battle \) , 's great way find 've following someone closely \) try check lights time , 'cos split second make difference \( though n't necessary , know \) , owen used peeve canada cars bloody red rear indicators 'd see single red light come think , , stopping one brake lamp working , dumb bloody red rear indicators \? survival 101 , assume 's braking take appropriate actions , time light goes , reasonably certain 's bloody red rear indicator ivan reid , paul scherrer institute , ch ivan cvax psi ch gsx600f , rg250wd si 2 66 porsche pass ! dod 484
admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu \( steve c liu \) subject spring records organization homewood academic computing , johns hopkins university , baltimore , md , usa lines 26 distribution world expires 5 9 93 nntp posting host jhunix hcf jhu edu summary earl weaver commandments pitching staff fine exhibition season four shutouts , low team era , \( well , n't gotten baseball news since march 14 anyways \) could contend , yes could win \? maybe fans teams bad spring records , remember earl weaver 's first law baseball \( book managing \) one gives damn july lost game march \) btw , anyone idea contenders 's fifth starter \? 's pretty much set sutcliffe , mussina , mcdonald rhodes first four rotation johns hopkins university blue jay \( , baseball team logo toronto club 's logo 's correct blue jay god , ca n't think original idea \? 's even pose baltimore oriole 's hats many people realize bird really called baltimore oriole \? admiral steve c liu internet address admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu committee liberation intergration terrifying organisms rehabilitation society red dwarf polymorph bangles greatest female rock band ever existed ! sig brought frungy ! sport kings !
subject eck vs rickey \( rickey 's whining \) smith ms uky edu \( brian smith \) expires sat , 1 may 1993 04 00 00 gmt distribution usa organization university kentucky , dept math sciences lines 169 article blue cis pitt edu genetic pitt edu \( david tate \) writes 've read followups , thought 'd go back original article make specific comments method jao megatest com \( john \) said obtained play play records , computer readable form , every major league baseball game past several years devised algorithm call sum situations , wrote computer program calculate every major league players contribution using works like look every situation every game baseball season situation determined inning , score , baserunners , many outs situation , count many times team eventually game situation occured , divide number times situation came , come value situation first done george lindsey late early , reported article investigation strategies baseball author george r lindsey journal operations research issue volume 11 4 , july august 1963 , pp 477 501 later , pete palmer thing using simulated seasons generate larger set data avoid kind small sample people worried reported hidden game baseball \( john thorn \) gary modified method bit work called value added measure based situational values based directly marginal runs , though , win probabilities results , applied 198 \? season , reported one bill james baseball abstract books \( 1987 \? help , somebody \) example , situation might inning 3 , score 2 0 , runner second outs regular season major league games last year \( rockies marlins , year \) say situation came 100 , team ahead 75 value situation 0 75 description method look change win probability based bat plus baserunning , credit player amount time gets plate appearance , player , sum bat base running values season obtain overall value player obviously sum players' values game , season whole , 0 's always credit x batter x pitcher 's validation involved ok , 's big problem nobody yet commented 're adding probabilities , probabilities n't add runs add total team runs breaks many runs joe contributed plus many runs fred contributed , etc probabilities n't work way bob increases team 's chance winning 1 400 pas , mean bob increased team 's chance winning 400 fact , n't mean anything , units screwy agree disagree john saying batters efforts result 4 wins losses probably correct 400 mean 4 wins losses , means something would rather player increased teams chances winning 1 400 pas would player increased chances winning 5 400 pas thus , appears obvious positive association john 's statistic winning games thus , disregard stat , appears study must go sort relationship consider example bob hits 2 solo hr bottom first 12 scale thing fourth , score tied , another 14 , seventh , score tied , another 22 , finally , ninth win game score 7 6 , value 0 5 bob hit 4 solo hr 4 plate appearances , credited method 12 14 22 5 98 mean \? bob 98 responsible win \? certainly defense always 50 responsible \( include pitching \) , bob n't pitching fact , bob 4 7 offense \( lot , even close 100 \) furthermore , 3 team runs \? say came solo hr fred fred hitting hr tie game , valuable hr take lead \( see lindsey \) , fred good 4 rating fred bob combined 138 win one game 's clearly problem problem number mean exactly many wins team first , using averages many seasons applying one game second , remember players performance take away chance winning player gets gets negative probability cases thus , i'm sure given game add numbers team add 1 game sometimes , add one sometime , less one also , pitchers' bad performances \( giving 6 runs \) may given large negative percentage game also , batter pulled 0 4 night would give large negatives greg thinking right things , intuition mark enormously important total number runs value come , prevented comming doubling greg allows enough another article , proposed test predict team 's lost record quite accurately looking many runs total score allow , without regard runs score game late runs really important early runs , looking late runs lead better predictor , right \? , really smaller sample size would think however , number runs score first inning would good prediction many runs score last inning , realize something else closer usually comes close situation , blow hard argue runs closer gives game equal importance given first inning look , closer giving runs often means team lose many games , hand starter gives runs often still leaves team chance win offence many outs something , saying late inning situations equally important either 8 runs ninth , really matter many runs pitcher gives ninth 's another thought experiment apply method basketball find points scored first half game almost exactly value , lead safe entire half yet play furthermore , sub bench sinks winning free throws time clock gets 1 0 game , star forward scored 27 points first half ankle gets zero make sense \? , would assume teams probability winning would 0 possesion free throws made look , 1 point 5 seconds left , fairly high probability win game possesion ball , forget somebody elses missed shots , , , bad defense , etc caused negative chance team would win reading discussion statistic , feel certain extent agenda first look statistic , really around idea certain players crucial situation elevate performance others performance goes 've never seen convincing proof really happens , assume , means except lot , statistic positive association player performance way get rid believe certainly , could find average value home run example may find instance , home run increases chance winning 15 average decreases chance winning 5 bet done would find statistic good statistics predicting wins losses evaluate relief pitchers \? say john sam exact pitching statistics \( runs , earned runs , k 's , bb 's , etc \) exceptional numbers john , however pitched closer situations , sam mop man team \? probably john better pitcher \? probably brian smith
admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu \( steve c liu \) subject joke rockies attendance record ! ! ! ! organization homewood academic computing , johns hopkins university , baltimore , md , usa lines 23 distribution usa expires 5 9 93 nntp posting host jhunix hcf jhu edu summary small hell , opening day game could easily largest history stadium 80 , 000 seats yards \( definitely excellent ballpark \) holds like 45 , 000 275 spots ticket sales entire year moving fast seats almost gone every game year 's extremely likelyhood 's could sell every game year \( especially lead division year like '89 \) another front , sale orioles anyone likely forced upon eli jacobs major debt apparently maybe get owner willing spend proven free agent winter fernando made 's fifth starter 's pitching staff looks pretty good sutcliffe , mussina , mcdonald , rhodes , fernando baltimore pick competitive al east admiral steve c liu internet address admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu committee liberation intergration terrifying organisms rehabilitation society red dwarf polymorph bangles greatest female rock band ever existed ! sig brought frungy ! sport kings ! second last day season gregg \( true wild thing \) olson wild pitch allowing blue jays tie blue jays win 11th ends baby miracle season '89
thf2 kimbark uchicago edu \( ted frank \) subject players overpaid \? article midway 1993apr5 reply thf2 midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 42 's lot whining much players overpaid thought 'd put together team could win pennant let four players earn much half million dollars highest paid player frank thomas , cut players , like kenny lofton , chris , keith mitchell , tim wakefield , bunch pitchers , could arguably made team better cost 1 million lot total team salary 7 , 781 , 500 , averaging slightly 300k player 's steep , dump thomas bagwell , replacing paul minimum wager save bit million dollars , still one best teams majors p , juan guzman , 500 p , mussina , 400 p , castillo , 250 p , eldred , 175 p , rhodes , 155 p , militello , 118 rp , , 300 rp , beck , 250 rp , , 235 rp , hernandez , 185 rp , nied , 150 c , rodriguez , 275 c , piazza , 126 1b , thomas , 900 1b , bagwell , 655 2b , knoblauch , 500 2b , , 190 3b , gomez , 312 5 3b , palmer , 250 ss , listach , 350 ss , pena , 170 lf , gonzalez , 525 cf , lankford , 290 rf , r sanders , 275 , plantier , 245 ted frank however teel mentioned though thf2 kimbark uchicago edu advice legally sound , follow u c law school probably wind jail standard disclaimers james donald , misc legal
tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) subject rickey henderson organization cornell univ cs dept , ithaca ny 14853 distribution usa lines 12 article 1993apr5 ra msstate edu js1 isis msstate edu \( jiann ming su \) writes say buy henderson 's contract let go bag groceries next season , 'll able sign nothing goes bitching ball player doubt henderson would clear waivers , would instantly signed major league minimum , oakland picking remaining 3 million tab gms value field performance valentine
subject giants win pennant ! ! ! ! csustan edu \( maria \) distribution usa organization csu lines 4 giants win pennant ! ! giants win pennant ! ! gi ooops guess i'm little early see october
thornley milli cs umn edu \( david h thornley \) subject minnesota pitching nntp posting host milli cs umn edu organization university minnesota , minneapolis , csci dept lines 37 article 8 0 uwsuper edu uwsuper edu \( scott r nelson \) writes rotation changed due strange injury scott erickson developed stomach area taken rotation new rotation \( best mind 's knowledge \) kevin tapani , jim , pat mahomes , willie banks add mike somewhere , since need five people mark guthrie remain bullpen long lefty ss 3b short played scott leius played short much career twins third mike pagliarulo jeff platoon pags terry jorgenson platoon third , backup infielder pags looked pretty miserable yesterday guy lead league da 1991 , routine grounders \( heck , grounder would probably gotten \) jorgenson nothing exceptional noticed leius missed ball think would reached certainly miss gag 's glove season winfield struggled preseason sunday colorado rockies went 2 3 2 rbis scored looked pretty good contrary mediots saying , looked reasonable first n't mid 80s hrbek , neither pretty big guy \( note i'm used seeing twins 1b looking kinda big field , big ! \) hits vaguely like last year , 's perfectly good first baseman note much posting personal observation yesterday game regulars mostly pulled several innings winfield may big holes defensive game n't show \( n't pick bad throws , example \) , 'll take saw far david thornley tickets , travel dome
iastate edu \( thomas j \) subject brewers injuries organization iowa state university , ames ia lines 21 hi , 've locked small closet chained lab bench last week two without access really important information saw 3 5 million shoulder back dl long \( e many millions inning get year \? \) nothing personal mind , wondering bud keep money lets current big producers go relative \( please realize term relative used sarcasm discussing baseball salaries \) additional questions get see bones pitch spring looking going fit rotation \? shaping defensively third \? going build new stadium \? \? tom
vince sscl uwo ca subject binaca blast deep drive derby \( bbddd \) returns organization social science computing laboratory distribution na nntp posting host sscl uwo ca lines 72 article network ucsd edu , king cogsci ucsd edu \( jonathan king \) writes less well publicized part infamous darrin jackson derek bell trade fact san diego included 300 , 000 deal even less publicized , however , 300 , 000 n't come padres , un named source , money n't go blue jays toronto , money diverted london bank account owned shadowy character named vincent gray lucky account number must rejected ! \) odd thing gray n't british , canadian social scientist working university western ontario gray previously known authorities associate john palmer , man previous year discovered true name bing bang ben macdonald accurate , big bang ben macdonald soon , gray palmer sent word ottawa canada achieved absolute superiority united states field research , controlled acker cook pitch alike contest binaca blast research institute prime minister smiled hope think would inadvertantly give pleasure mulroney really ruins day ps matthew wall ending section expos okay , i'm giving day job , effort help keep day job , 've managed job running binaca blast deep drive derby onto vince gray , future deep drive related tidbits sent vince sscl uwo ca vince sscl uwo ca please identify messages subject line bbddd vince take post cue chime plans new director research institute , kind body armor wearing spring meanwhile , go pick truckload denis boucher cards bought fill area behind tool shed jking realizing importance work , john palmer concluded might able pool resources yet gone archives jonathan sent , send official introduction deep drive derby however , wonder need rename project , principal investigator research archive changed send suggestions rename study , address given , think 's opening day soon , balls flying \( , get minds gutter \) ball parks , helpless injured balls atmosphere \( thought meteorite showers made rocks ! \) stars year \? anyone hope combat brad 's record start last year \? season young , balls newly rubbed mud , hot dogs starting boil rest year play ball \( take cover \) may sliders hang vince
subject designated hitter rule mhd moorhead msus edu reply mhd moorhead msus edu organization moorhead state university , moorhead , mn nntp posting host 134 29 97 2 lines 14 article ekdfc 14 0 ttacs1 ttu edu , ekdfc ttacs1 ttu edu \( david coons \) writes article 1993apr4 bsu ucs leo bsuvc bsu edu writes paper designated hitter rule information even opinions would greatly magic rescinded rules say baseball game two teams nine players let 's keep way last weeks sports illustrated couple big articles designated hitter 1993 baseball issue th weeks sports illustrated
dxf12 po cwru edu \( douglas fowler \) subject \( \) n l games 8 2 8 5 standings article usenet caf organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 237 nntp posting host slc12 ins cwru edu philadelphia chicago teams tied 1st sunday dick chet brewer first game dramatic four game series one friday , one saturday , good old sunday doubleheader could better , declared ernie banks perhaps fact cubs challenging \? 's pitching , 's always pitching 've lacked , announced ryne sandberg get brewer , beat carlton , alexander , bunning 2 last three 'll know might able win lord , hope pull phils scored top first ashburn singled , pete rose followed hit , sending ashburn around second cuyler cut ball left center , threw bullet ernie banks , threw ron santo get ashburn third rose went second play lifted long fly center , moving pete rose third schmidt walked cubs absolutely refusing let beat schmidt likely draw 130 150 walks year chuck klein starting hit well , double gap right center cool papa bell 's speed allowed cut ball prevent schmidt scoring fox walked , bob boone grounded second , ending threat teams starting realize n't pitch schmidt , lowering run total puts lot pressure klein dick allen \( chuck klein occasionally spells rose first \) , 's credit phillies 've able sustain pace times came analysis frank chance cubs got run back bell hit , grounder moved second , sandberg made billy williams singled home run sixth , ron santo launched two run homer make 3 1 dick got trouble eighth , schmidt singled klein singled third ed entered face fox , dick allen popped dugout hit allen doubled right , luckily cubs , williams moved left andre dawson inserted defense fired bullet home plate keep klein third lance , hitting boone , walked , bruce sutter entered larry grounded 1 2 3 double play , ed walked pinch hitter desiring , since ashburn likely attempt bunt hit quick pinch running third , chance brought lee smith , induced pop catcher speedy centerfielder , ending inning cubs took win , 3 2 , moving game behind phillies steve carlton called upon battle 3 finger brown saturday get another lineup , ron santo moved first bill played third unfortunately , brown allowed six doubles , cub bullpen worn even , cubs tried maintain lead lefty , batting sixth , knocked two doubles , driving home four runs hit two home runs , cuyler added another , score 8 6 , cubs six innings phillie bullpen troubles bottom eighth , cubs grabbed 3 runs ice 11 7 triumph sunday 's twin bill saw cool papa bell gather seven straight hits one point , including rare outside park home run second game , robin roberts grover alexander phils took first contest , 4 2 , cubs captured second one 5 4 , gaining win bruce sutter tossed two innings save , though allowed one run eighth cardinals stood half game behind co leaders , would conclude series expos monday montreal st louis \( august 3 6 \) 3 way tie 1st dennis martinez roll , continued versus john friday expos wide variety hitters , n't among time greats , getting job done winning first first two games , suddenly found 2 1 2 games first wacky season martinez 5 3 friday , williams dizzy dean 3 2 saturday however , cardinals refused give , winning 6 2 sunday cards captured monday 's game , , steve carlton steve rogers 3 2 're really good ground ball pitchers team speed , remarked lou brock n't see ca n't win division phillies cubs may reasons two thirds way season , 3 way tie first new york pittsburgh \( august 3 6 \) 3 straight 3 2 wins bucs , 2 back 4th ! team slump like , worst thing play pitcher 's park like , spoke gil hodges series keith hernandez added defense takes away quite runs per year , must giving extra 6 7 wins pirates made 26 errors season , 6 ahead second place dodgers error totals tend around 50 best defensive time teams foster defeated sid fernandez 5 2 friday , seaver 3 2 saturday , game featuring outstanding defense nolan ryan two 6 hit mets another 3 2 win sunday , pirates could look forward victory getting back 500 mark unable several times past month bert met dwight gooden afternoon game pitchers possessed fantastic stuff , runs scored eight innings home runs solo shot rusty staub mets two run blast ralph kiner pirates mets' darryl strawberry singled home run top ninth jesse , working second inning , wilson pinch ran gary carter second one runner first , lee sent pinch hit pirates countered kent , placing fifth spot order putting barry bonds left field ninth place hitter induced forcing strawberry second slid hard wagner , preventing pirates turning fifth double play afternoon allowed hit , clemente threw third near right field line , ending inning tug mcgraw relieved randy myers , entered pitch eighth , got one bonds launched rocket deep center , running stop sign third score inside park homer win pirates scored improbable 3 straight 3 2 wins , moved within 2 games first place , seven weeks go san francisco \( august 3 5 \) another sunday doubleheader appeared schedule , giants managed close gap teams thanks starting pitching would n't tire fact , reported manager john mcgraw , rough part schedule , maybe early coming week , may shift 4 man rotation little juan continued hot pitching friday , beating lew braves 4 1 willie mays four r b 3 hits rick faced joe saturday braves' park homer , took cake , giants affair 16 13 willie mays three homers , willie mccovey , eddie matthews , baylor two , hank aaron , ernie lombardi , biz mackey , mel ott one braves collected 149 home runs going sunday 's doubleheader , putting pace 223 , would 4 short national league record still tad behind pace allowed 120 , though vida blue actually got win retiring 2 batters fifth allowed run sixth , seventh joe earned save doubleheader , braves' hoyt wilhelm failed hold lead first game , hank aaron homered bill foster eighth braves , 4 3 giants took second game , however , 6 2 score homer aaron magical 150 braves however , fell three game 500 , making comeback extremely unlikely san diego cincinnati \( aug 3 5 \) randy jones faced first 3 game series , padres felt rather good mattingly straining back last cleveland game , trade looked even better mcgriff 's batting average even rising course , bench poor , joe gordon adequate outfield , minor problems , since pitching holding jones pitched good game friday , 6 3 mcgriff launched two home runs mel harder earned win help mark davis ray saturday 5 4 final score tom paige 3 3 tie eight innings game scoreless 4 innings thirteenth paige departed 10 , john franco hurled scoreless inning tom browning working second scoreless inning , dave winfield doubled one joe gordon pitched around doubled runners home , padres 5 3 win three game sweep pulled giants tie reds though reds denied , highly emotional series dodgers may taken much houston \( august 3 5 \) another series weekend doubleheader took place wide open plains astros sent joe hill first game , opposite drysdale normally , drysdale remarked , would challenging hitter ready throw ca n't afford team , though get runners going ca n't afford let astros beat us said well , maybe davis get fact glenn davis leads team homers six \( ! \) primarily would , understood current pace would give nine season hitting team little better , power doubles triples still , carl main reason astro home runs hit weekend , threw two runners trying inside park homers unaware park , 23 foot high gray wall around outfield balls must hit seats home runs foul poles 355 feet home plate , alleys 400 feet away , center field 420 feet 's three year old threw told 'if ca n't hit home runs , nobody hit home , remarked roy campanella dodgers stole five bases friday , astros decided baltimore chopping failed 6 weeks tonight , anyway , davis , jim wynn , jose cruz mess swings , according manager poles willie wells reached base via baltimore chop , drysdale jose cruz pitch responded two run double , wynn playing first davis popped , astros n't score inning score 3 fourth erase 3 2 deficit , astros wound winning 6 4 threatened even better next game , tommy john would opponent walt met privately starters 6 game think know beat baltimore chop , explained , pee wee reese wondered 're going beating ball , 've got ready throw run steve start first dig balls dirt , want practice barehanded picks throws 'll go shallow infield almost whole time plan almost worked mike scott allowed two runs eight innings , astros got three two scored bill pushed bunt outfield fourth runners second third 3 2 astros final , dave smith earning another save dodgers scored victory first game twin bill sunday , nolan ryan walked five , three scored 4 1 dodger win fernando lost second game 4 2 sutton , however , thirteen stolen bases series proved enough 're mostly power team , remarked ron jackie , plays , maury wills real speed demons , though couple plays 're sunk place like guess 's 're successful indeed , seems basestealing teams give trouble dome 12 bases 16 attempts , giving 230 season standings weekend series l east team w l gb new york 68 42 cleveland 65 46 3 5 detroit 64 46 4 boston 64 47 4 5 baltimore 59 52 9 5 toronto 43 69 25 5 washington 39 73 28 l west 63 48 minnesota 61 48 1 chicago 59 53 4 5 kansas city 57 54 6 5 california 57 56 8 milwaukee 45 66 17 seattle 32 78 31 5 n l east chicago 57 53 philadelphia 58 54 st louis 58 54 pittsburgh 56 56 2 montreal 53 56 3 5 new york 48 64 10 n l west 66 46 cincinnati 66 47 0 5 san francisco 65 46 0 5 54 56 11 houston 50 61 17 5 san diego 36 75 29 5 doug fowler dxf12 po cwru edu , age 4 ever wonder , casey relatives give lots hugs love missed 3rd strike poem support , 'cause heaven great ran first made \? big hug lasts forever ever ! ! !
ez027993 dale ucdavis edu \( gary huckabay \) subject bill james player rating book 1993 organization harold brooks duck club , ltd lines 26 \( dave never happened kirsch \) writes correction nied player identified book grade prospect exposed draft , according bill james section preceding player evaluations valued nied 21 , said nied 's value increase significantly result selection \( although catch break getting away strongest rotation baseball \) thought bill latest book completely totally sucked bought , purchase anything ever without thoroughly looking first tripe book inconsistent , filled selective analysis james claims looking forward , makes absolutely bizarre statements value , got impression probably glanced book hour put name say disappointed grand understatement gary huckabay kevin kerr al mid 90 's ! living argument 's anything love huge existence parallel sig , 's someone quoting 100 lines add universes 3 4 new ones consecutive posts ,
pomona claremont edu subject dodgers newsletter \? article pomona reply pomona claremont edu organization pomona college lines 3 could somebody please tell dodgers newsletter net , subscribe \? thanks , joel
dwarner journalism indiana edu \( david j \) subject marlins win ! marlins win ! article usenet reply dwarner journalism indiana edu organization indiana university lines 8 nntp posting host journalism indiana edu caught tail end one espn anyone report \? \( look teal ! ! ! ! bleah ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! \) david j \( dwarner journalism indiana edu \) blue riddle productions 1993 's rap art ep coming tape time real e mail 411
rickert nextwork rose hulman edu \( john h rickert \) subject joke rockies attendance record ! ! ! ! organization computer science department rose hulman lines 21 distribution usa reply rickert nextwork rose hulman edu \( john h rickert \) nntp posting host g215a 1 nextwork rose hulman edu article 1993apr2 dvorak amd com mozart amd com \( tom white \) writes highest single game attendance game 5 1959 world series , october 6 , la coliseum white sox dodgers , 1 0 gate \? officially 92 , 706 largest regular season game \? 78 , 672 , la , first game city angels opening day , april 18 , 1958 \( home opener , anyway \) rockies might really nail record record attendance doubleheader larger , since dh 's nonexistent nowadays , bother listing n't 85 , 000 new york cleveland game late 40 's \? rickert rickert nextwork rose hulman edu prediction 1993 marlins 70 wins , rockies 50 wins
gt0523e prism gatech edu \( michael andre mule \) subject tickets etc article hydra distribution usa organization georgia institute technology lines 39 let 's look effects inflation 1930 's salaries read babe made 80 , 000 one year good got let 's assume made 1928 \( i'm sure figures , know i'm ballpark pun intended \) \) today , assuming 4 yearly inflation rate , understatement accurate , 80 , 000 salary would worth fv 80 , 000 x \( 1 4 \) \( 1993 1928 \) 80 , 000 x \( 1 04 \) 65 1 , 000 , 000 assuming inflation average around 5 fv 80 , 000 x \( 1 5 \) 65 almost 2 , 000 , 000 \( n't crunch numbers beforehand \) numbers might lead one believe today 's players slightly overpaid babe appears made today 's average average players make perfectly accurate salary , year salary , average inflation rate would make analysis accurate , don`t think i'm much chop chop michael mule' michael andre mule georgia institute technology , atlanta georgia , 30332 uucp ! decvax , hplabs , ncar , purdue , rutgers ! gatech ! prism ! gt0523e internet gt0523e prism gatech edu
staff tc umn edu \( kevin hansen \) subject scott erickson nntp posting host 16 psych umn edu organization minnesota twin family study univerity minnesota lines 38 article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu \( eric roush \) writes path cis umn edu ! umn edu ! news feed 1 peachnet edu ! gatech ! concert ! duke ! news duke edu ! bchm biochem duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu \( eric roush \) newsgroups rec sport baseball subject scott erickson message id news duke edu date 5 apr 93 18 21 18 gmt sender news news duke edu organization biochemistry lines 13 nntp posting host bruchner biochem duke edu usa today reports may going dl \( arm pains nature \) news would appreciated eric roush fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu marxist , groucho sort grafitti , paris , 1968 tanstaafl ! \( although internet comes close \) erickson go 15 day dl pulled muscle left side \( near rib cage \) 4 18 93 news twins bring kevin hansen mn twin family study university minnesota \( 612 \) 626 staff tc umn edu contact university minnesota women 's basketball theory guides , experiment decides
brian meaddata com \( brian curran \) subject espn tbs games \? article meaddata mgb distribution world organization mead data central , dayton oh lines 13 nntp posting host taurus meaddata com article 05apr93 lafibm lafayette edu , vb30 lafibm lafayette edu \( vb30 \) writes anyone know get list nationally televised games , espn tbs \? live east coast 'd like catch many giants games possibly ! list published every week baseball weekly brian curran mead data central brian meaddata com swimming bathing german reporter , watching 1972 olympic superstar mark spitz get badly beaten 1991 comeback race
subject , phils support f67709907 violet ccit arizona edu \( greg franklin \) distribution world , local organization university arizona nntp posting host violet nntp posting user f67709907 lines 54 article news udel edu , philly brahms udel edu \( robert c hite \) writes article andrew cmu edu gupta andrew cmu edu writes everytime written net possibility season philadelphia phillies , gotten ripped everybody pittsburgh , care look week 's baseball weekly , see i'm one considers division winners rest respected baseball writers country well guys certainly know 're talking every bozo pittsburgh sit take notice ! phils team offensive juggernaut going score lot runs put ton hits scoreboard people going sick seeing phillies scattered every offensive league leaders category newspaper guys hit 304 spring training well getting hit yesterday plane catch 45 minutes game ended , 're minds n't point , really thought written pro sdcn , anti mediot poster blessed certain talent sarcasm biting remarks somebody like , instance obviously intended original poster , top great offense , slightly average pitching staff lot youth promise pitchers part , mitch keeps blown saves minimum , look another pennant left field vet robert c hite p michael jack schmidt commissioner scales lifted eyes looks like robert really serious oh , well compare performance 1992 phillies 1987 edition , outstanding run producers every position except ss , yet finished frustrating sub 500 level 1987 folks n't ever amount anything , neither 1992 squad , imho parallels previous years' teams year 's editions \( style 1993 braves 1971 orioles \) \? greg franklin mixing encompasses lot lot f67709907 ccit arizona edu g7 races robohen things one wishes see moon , flowers , face dear one well performed furnishings tea real thoughts one 's lover letter famous places
u96 vaxc stevens tech edu subject surge last two weeks lines 24 organization stevens institute technology ladies gentlemen , boys girls , lend ears moment , national eastern division champions philadelphia phillies one hundred ten percent guarantee ! ! ! chamberlain hollins dykstra incaviglia jackson williams daulton greene kruk rivera thompson duncan watch us soar 1993 !
subject quick way tell local beat writer dumb gajarsky pilot njin net \( bob gajarsky hobokenite \) organization somewhere hoboken lines 10 jayson stark \( 's \) fits perfectly category anyone writes dean palmer 2 homers pace , 'll 324 home runs ! shot , end april , 11 , anyone writes pace , 'll 100 homers ! shot bob gaj
subject mike francesa 's 1993 predictions gajarsky pilot njin net \( bob gajarsky hobokenite \) 1993apr2 1 ulkyvx louisville edu 1993apr5 porthos cc bellcore com 1993apr5 1003 princeton edu organization somewhere hoboken lines 9 hmm thought francesca 's predictions always 500 , especially nfl \( counting college football bowl day \) 's nice analyst explaining past tense , mapping plays teams might predicting future , looks good compared bob gaj
subject , phils support kirsch staff tc umn edu \( dave 'almost cursed jays' kirsch \) organization li'l carlos hormones nntp posting host staff tc umn edu lines 18 article ble news udel edu philly bach udel edu \( robert c hite \) writes tirade deleted editor know use okay 've conservative added 18 wins far 're adding 4 wins thanks expansion teams okay , thats 22 wins lesse math , 72 22 94 hmmm think thats good enough win worse division baseball \? next time , say something foolish , get clue first ! either example great sarcasm i'm really , really worried dave hung like jim acker slider kirsch blue jays '93 kirsch staff tc umn edu new quotes context ! beat dead horse , 's couple o' weeks disappoints punishments discharges jackhammering stephen lawrence
mss netcom com \( mark singer \) subject young catchers organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 143 article blue cis pitt edu genetic pitt edu \( david tate \) writes mss netcom com \( mark singer \) said meant one let exception make rule 's exception good players come young players come young good always rule players come young always good 're young , later \? worse 's shift way always several detailed studies done , 've shown players n't coming younger older past , n't playing less minors used thing shifts memories good old days \) damn afraid would say ! fact , makes applicable current discussion , decide whether play rookie n't established majors mediocre veteran padres played santiago year clearly nobody else worth playing well , perhaps braves one else worth playing year would lopez others worth playing , least opinion happen agree young men highly touted defensive catchers , expected among best ever baseball rec sport baseball consensus may sound like incredibly arrogant comment , 've found sdcn consensus \( one exists \) right far often media consensus opinions baseball people affiliated mlb believe i'm newbie , 'll take word alomar fine defensive catcher , statement solid reason bringing tender age , long feel also hit bit lopez consensus defensive prowess , imho enough give dreaded seasoning n't know knows suppose people \( similar \) know better catcher , course , differing opinions read arm strong \( suppose somewhere measurement sb ratios \) still learning call game latter skill may difficult project someone without intimate knowledge performance , tangible skill disagree , n't think tangible skill , leadership n't deny real skill , catchers may much better others , really n't see way could ever know nichols 's law catcher defense accurate far often take defensive catchers seriously sorry new n't know law n't believe era interested pitchers' eras different catchers info \? absolutely evidence , year year alternative braves really n't know young players , average , better current starters i'm ruling kind gross incompetence , think salary schedule explanation charitable words , know , logic behind different decision would make must financial presume feel way franchises atlanta , \? consider know braves strongest team baseball right , even olson lemke nixon bream lineup good chance repeating champs year team ever actually makes sense say rather making team marginally better year bringing young studs dumping elderly , let 's go ahead compete year , bring studs , 'll still reserve three years beyond current team collecting fair young players \? make organizational sense \? think well make organizational sense , one hardly fault decisions mean , please n't tell run business especially i'm successful c could make 107 108 wins let bring lopez listen , bobby 'd like way see , hits big club year 'll paying mega arbitration bucks road couple years 's way want continues win without , keep winning next year 's \? i'm sure could right could also smoking illegal substance \( hey 's joke n't get offended please \) hey , 'd love wrong think 's unlikely , 'd love know n't cite anybody 's innate ethical , though , unless know personally well , ca n't cite anyone 's ethical n't know means \) , makes organizational sense , baseball business , solid business reason keeping lopez farm 's braves happen believe 's baseball decision armchair may , n't think lot evidence suggest decision made predicted among large several start spring training think normal decision made certainly reversible started lopez bigs released one catchers sure , may conservative may also logical n't know ethics seems like pretty good common sense beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
dwarner journalism indiana edu \( david j \) subject 1993 nl east champion phillies article usenet reply dwarner journalism indiana edu organization indiana university lines 12 nntp posting host journalism indiana edu robert c hite writes projected , , rotation bullpen 1993 national league east champion philadelphia phillies think phillies effect philly course , becomes true , 'll first smoke one david j \( dwarner journalism indiana edu \) blue riddle productions 1993 's rap art ep coming tape time real e mail 411
roger crux princeton edu \( roger lustig \) subject mike francesa 's 1993 predictions originator news nimaster nntp posting host crux princeton edu reply roger astro princeton edu \( roger lustig \) organization princeton university lines 24 article 1993apr5 porthos cc bellcore com cc bellcore com \( vaughn , richard \) writes article 1993apr2 1 ulkyvx louisville edu , pjtier01 ulkyvx louisville edu writes article 1993apr2 porthos cc bellcore com , cc bellcore com \( vaughn , richard \) writes mike francesa mentioned '93 baseball picks passing radio yesterday francesa , opinions well worth consideration indeed ! , wizard year big east ncaa tournament ! unfortunatly , none teams made sweet sixteen , much less new orleans neither ! overall mike francesa outstanding prediction record overall \? figure \? ignore peril far radio n't exploded tuned 660 roger
king cogsci ucsd edu \( jonathan king \) subject move wo n't see \( \( wo n't \) win \) organization university california , san diego lines 14 nntp posting host cogsci ucsd edu summary would tragic ted simmons pick mo vaughn stwombly cs ulowell edu \( steve twombly \) writes 1 mo vaughn hit 400 spring 1b mo vaughn hit 230 season excellent point hope god ted simmons n't get weird idea trading guy , better include jeff king deal oh god traded zane smith jeff king vaughn greg \? would worse nichols curse ! hmm , guess n't sound sincere enough oh well , least tried jking
mjones fenway aix kingston ibm com \( mike jones \) subject belated predictions \( nl \) reply mjones donald aix kingston ibm com organization ibm aix esa development , kingston ny lines 34 mss netcom com \( mark singer \) writes article apr 4 19 42 08 1993 pilot njin net gajarsky pilot njin net \( bob gajarsky hobokenite \) writes javier lopez better catcher greg olson ever history baseball 22 year old \( younger \) rookie catcher compared favorably among league catchers terms defense brought 247 bat \? n't sandy alomar supposed good rookie year \? n't santiago supposed good rookie year \? hrm sandy alomar , 24 year old rookie 132 games , 290 326 418 threw baserunners santiago , 22 year old rookie 146 games , 300 324 467 threw baserunners , ivan rodriguez , 20 year old rookies 88 games , 264 276 354 n't exactly suck behind plate continue thread others mentioned , get point others seem quick dismiss veterans favor hot young rookies perhaps perhaps management team pennant winning braves knows something perhaps know , 21 22 year old rookies come majors make impact true makes important realize one season last year , adjusted major league , 306 330 472 , 15 hrs bad behind plate better olson 's 238 316 328 \? mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com would admire hitting ryne , ever hit head might past tense casey
rdetweil boi hp com \( richard detweiler \) subject espn expansion distribution usa organization hewlett packard lines 33 article 7c0 ucdavis edu dale ucdavis edu \( trump \) writes watching peter gammons espn last night , 's got little confused talking expansion , started mentioning people might benefit fringe players 'll facing mcgriff hitting 50 home runs , sheffield getting 150 rbi 's , glavine winning 25 games , course , reference happened times baseball expanded \( early 60 's , late 60 's , late 70 's \) really confused , though , mention al players would well next year specifically , roger clemens winning 25 games , likes mcgwire gonzalez hitting 50 home runs question hell rockies marlins help al \? last time looked , n't lot talent jumping leagues miss something \? dennis ucdavis edu wondered thing first mentioned , thought making mistake said examples years , gave stats players leagues even one league expanded \( since stats never lie \) \) , guess effect leagues expansion draft takes talent leagues equally making every team leagues dilute major league talent calling players , normally , would expansion make sense \?
boell hpcc01 corp hp com \( donald p boell \) subject rockies opening day cast organization hp corporate notes server lines 34 colorado rockies day cast pitchers scott \( l \) mlb totals 31 games , 6 14 , 5 08 era , 0 saves andy ashby \( r \) 18 games , 2 8 , 6 72 era , 0 saves willie blair \( r \) 67 games , 10 15 , 4 57 era , 0 saves butch henry \( l \) 28 games , 6 9 , 4 02 era , 0 saves darren holmes \( r \) 95 games , 5 9 , 4 10 era , 9 saves david \( r \) 6 games , 3 0 , 1 17 era , 0 saves jeff \( r \) 341 games , 46 30 , 3 65 era , 21 saves steve reed \( r \) 18 games , 1 0 , 2 30 era , 0 saves bruce \( l \) 223 games , 43 64 , 4 31 era , 3 saves bryn smith \( r \) 354 games , 106 90 , 3 44 era , 6 saves gary wayne \( l \) 147 games , 8 8 , 3 44 era , 3 saves rest joe \( c \) 304 games , 262 , 3 hr , 70 rbi , 10 sb danny sheaffer \( c \) 32 games , 110 , 1 hr , 5 rbi , 0 sb freddie \( ss \) 98 games , 246 , 1 hr , 20 rbi , 1 sb \( ss \) 21 games , 238 , 0 hr , 1 rbi , 0 sb andres galarraga \( 1b \) 942 games , 267 , , 472 rbi , 59 sb charlie hayes \( 3b \) 530 games , 250 , 48 hr , 219 rbi , 13 sb jim \( 3b \) 5 games , 125 , 0 hr , 0 rbi , 0 sb eric young \( 2b \) 49 games , 258 , 1 hr , 11 rbi , 6 sb dante bichette \( \) 424 games , 254 , 38 hr , 176 rbi , 40 sb daryl boston \( \) 882 games , 250 , 65 hr , 224 rbi , 97 sb clark \( \) 339 games , 237 , 28 hr , 126 rbi , 5 sb alex cole \( \) 290 games , 283 , 0 hr , 49 rbi , 83 sb gerald young \( \) 605 games , 246 , 3 hr , 109 rbi , 153 sb dale murphy \( \) 15 seasons , 266 , 398 hr , rbi
subject rockies rangers fans , please help valentin pitt edu \( shawn v \) organization university pittsburgh x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d12 x xxmessage id blue cis pitt edu x xxdate mon , 5 apr 93 22 34 04 gmt lines 12 greetings , choice two less identical conferences attend , one denver , one dallas , may 24 28 could kind rockies rangers \( play dallas area , right \? \) fans please let know home dates week 'd love catch game thanks , shawn
admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu \( steve c liu \) subject opening day 1990 \? organization homewood academic computing , johns hopkins university , baltimore , md , usa lines 30 distribution usa expires 5 9 93 nntp posting host jhunix hcf jhu edu summary baltimore 's looking stellar 's lost rangers minutes ago happy pitching rick sutcliffe \( 6 runs 6 innings , 5 3 \? \) puts remembering 1990 's season '89 n't much winter wound 5th know mussina , mcdonald , rhodes better pitching prospects ballard oriole fans scared \? admiral steve c liu p scores cincy montreal , 2 1 think florida leading la 6 3 8th ! braves vs cubs , 1 0 8th futility cubs batting yanks beat tribe believe admiral steve c liu internet address admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu commander chief security division pi club earth chapter president earth chapter pi club founded april 1990 1993 world champions baltimore orioles \? series yards 1992 1993 stanley cup champions washington capitals committee liberation intergration terrifying organisms rehabilitation society , problem abbreviation polymorph episode red dwarf bangles greatest female rock band ever existed ! sig brought frungy ! sport kings ! god man , drilling holes head answer ! dr mccoy know , susanna really nice ass comment flanagan pi club creating largest signatures past nine months
fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu \( eric roush \) subject minors organization biochemistry lines 33 nntp posting host bruchner biochem duke edu article hydra gatech edu prism gatech edu \( mike \) writes 1993apr2 rigel econ uga edu moe coe uga edu \( shannon reeves ed tech \) writes times seems others bullpen used cox middle relief marvin pitched 7 innings spring supposed surgery , wondering cox still trying decide use middle relief thinks marvin might better choice early season would immediately give many chances pitch spring use bedrock freeman wondering intends use howell \( whatever happened senior smoke \? \) mean juan \? traded mark davis middle last season exchanged one stiff another , n't come back injury 91 think 's retired anyhow , middle relief , marvin ai n't bad least pitch couple innings mop work n't know much \( mexican league guy \? \) , everybody else pen 1 inning man , except maybe eric roush fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu marxist , groucho sort grafitti , paris , 1968 tanstaafl ! \( although internet comes close \)
dennis g parslow p00421 psilink com subject minnesota pitching reply andrew cmu edu nntp posting host 127 0 0 1 organization performance systems int'l x mailer psilink dos \( 3 4 \) lines 36 date mon , 5 apr 1993 00 19 45 0400 karim edvard ahmed ka0k andrew cmu edu since n't able keep baseball much season , questions favorite team , minnesota twins 1 good rotation look \? last heard , order tapani , , mahomes , banks , guy 've never heard \( sounds pretty pathetic \) well , maybe banks 24 year old prospect n't quickly would liked mahomes 22 year old highly touted tapani erickson also young , looked good spring last spot jim deshaies , formerly houston mike deshaies n't looked good spring , believe spot gone , although n't wanted 3 starters unproven personally believe highly mahomes 2 playing short third \? well , scott leius shortstop played mostly 3b last year , ss minors , moved back left k c 3b split \( maybe \) pagliarulo , great spring , terry jorgenson , good looking kid portland 3 years i'm sure time divided , seem happy like jorgenson , fear might give much time pags 3 's winfield \? sorry , ca n't help dennis
kirsch staff tc umn edu \( dave 'almost cursed jays' kirsch \) subject belated predictions \( nl \) nntp posting host staff tc umn edu organization li'l carlos hormones lines 26 well , long folks sharing esteemed wisdom , li'l karnak sez al west al east nl west nl east 1 \) chicago 1 \) toronto 1 \) atlanta 1 \) st louis 2 \) texas 2 \) new york 2 \) cincinnati 2 \) montreal 3 \) minnesota 3 \) baltimore 3 \) houston 3 \) new york 4 \) oakland 4 \) boston 4 \) los angeles 4 \) philadelphia 5 \) seattle 5 \) detroit 5 \) san diego 5 \) pittsburgh 6 \) kansas city 6 \) milwaukee 6 \) san fran 6 \) chicago 7 \) california 7 \) cleveland 7 \) colorado 7 \) florida details follow later pick apart like also , anyone still taking entries prediction pools contests , could snag mine add list \? thanks i'm glad 's opening day makes little bit doom weather patterns lundy , dave hung like jim acker slider kirsch blue jays '93 kirsch staff tc umn edu new quotes context ! beat dead horse , 's couple o' weeks disappoints punishments discharges jackhammering stephen lawrence
liberty uc wlu edu \( matthew r montgomery \) subject surge last two weeks organization washington lee university x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 15 watch us soar 1993 ! n't us stoned 1993 ! ' \? \) maybe us suck 1993 ! ' even us sore 1993 ! ' matt montgomery 'no , really like
uucp \( christopher \) subject find baseball statistics \? \? organization public access unix worcester county , , usa lines 7 interested uncovering statistics boston red sox players march 1992 present want look changes batting average , hits , multi hit games , runs , stolen bases , base every game find information \? sports magazines log info go directly ball club \? thanks info kip
organization university maine system maine maine edu subject grateful dead \? lines 15 baseball fan fan mentioned band wondering anyone could clue whether dead \( members \) sang national anthem todays giant opener \? would imagine bit early anyone know , answer would greatly appreciated curious , robert robert umaine hockey 156 park st c5 black bears , 1993 ncaa champs \( 207 \) 866 42 1 2
niguma ug cs dal ca \( gord niguma \) subject g williams sent yanks win al east nntp posting host ug cs dal ca organization math , stats cs , dalhousie university , halifax , ns , canada distribution na lines 17 well , really n't cut dry , jay fan thing feared worst happened yanks sent williams g going start williams b cf also believe kept wickman millitello rotation , much nicer mike witt combo thought 'd throw experience granted , witt might good , think used rationale keep youngsters given job witt good pitcher experience yanks showing taking positive strides forwards jays loss dave stewart looking gigantic holes pitching staff orioles also end gord niguma \( salvage season , let jj olerud win mvp \)
drw3l delmarva evsc virginia edu \( david robert walker \) subject bo good player , shorts \( plus idiots \) organization university virginia lines 35 article 1993apr5 1 otago ac nz guilford otago ac nz writes article 1993apr4 princeton edu , roger crux princeton edu \( roger lustig \) writes article 1993apr4 1 otago ac nz guilford otago ac nz writes bo jackson 1963 1988 kcr 437 106 16 4 23 28 29 7 253 67 243 288 455 1989 kcr 517 134 19 5 33 41 27 10 274 92 259 314 507 1990 kcr 405 110 17 1 27 44 16 9 286 77 272 343 519 1991 cws 71 16 3 0 3 12 0 1 240 10 225 337 394 maj 1430 366 55 10 86 125 72 27 270 246 256 316 489 maj 598 153 23 4 36 52 30 11 jackson looked like 88 91 , everything converted neutral park , basis run production equivalent average started 253 88 , 274 89 286 90 let us say established , last two seasons , 280 level play good good , fact probably n't make top ten league 10th best eqa al 1992 dave winfield 's 296 thomas first 350 first nl bonds , 378 tenth roberts , 297 280 better season past five years joe carter mattingly 1988 \( 285 \) felix jose last two years ahead time five year average better ryan klesko 's got attention media warranted baseball playing , though hype lot better hitting basis net comments overrated media would beleive great hitter think good , maybe good hitter imo , something like 30th best hitter majors clay
kirsch staff tc umn edu \( dave 'almost cursed jays' kirsch \) subject young catchers nntp posting host staff tc umn edu organization li'l carlos hormones lines 60 article netcom com mss netcom com \( mark singer \) writes age 23 alomar brilliant rookie year true , limited injuries sophomore season , numbers year following quite mediocre season bill james projects ba 265 , ops 675 bill james \? say \? sounds like 're suggesting bill james something kid death au fairly critical roy campaign , noting n't world catcher hitter called basically average everyone else media predicting next johnny bench roy campanella young men highly touted defensive catchers , expected among best ever baseball reports read indicate lopez ordinary defensively reports \? dodgers options hernandez , carlos piazza 24 long continues hot bat , keep lineup need offensive production cools , look much better defensive catcher hernandez \( 25 \) play like hernandez lot , piazza catch ball , 've gotta play imho 's much better hitter , although hernandez n't bad hitter right , sounds like piazza catch time hernandez 's caddy since catch long play abilities , dodgers could good catching tandem braves options berryhill olson agree olson nothing special , think berryhill better many people rsb believe braves' catchers good defensively \( calling game , blocking plate , throwing \) although somewhat weak , play team much need another big bat think overrated defensively \( see law catcher defense \) , 's something 's difficult prove disprove viewpoint mine tangible thing look opponent 's sb , 's clouded well pitchers hold runners catchers era possibility , 's subject way many biases team much need another big , disagree braves' armor 're weak offensively several positions \( cf , c , 2b , ss plays , 1b unless bream hunter form another super platoon \) weak defensively blauser plays 'd like see braves give least one mel nieves , lopez jones shot , much like talent rich jays recent years 'll conservative stick i'm saying 's wrong , conservative dave hung like jim acker slider kirsch blue jays '93 kirsch staff tc umn edu new quotes context ! beat dead horse , 's couple o' weeks disappoints punishments discharges jackhammering stephen lawrence
cs umn edu \( lance smith \) subject quick way tell local beat writer dumb nntp posting host cs umn edu organization little squids poor distribution na lines 28 article apr 5 16 22 48 1993 pilot njin net gajarsky pilot njin net \( bob gajarsky hobokenite \) writes jayson stark \( think 's \) fits perfectly category could jayson stark writes weekly press also baseball america anyone writes dean palmer 2 homers pace , 'll 324 home runs ! shot , end april , 11 , anyone writes pace , 'll 100 homers ! shot stark done sort thing , never serious usually states sort projection useless top columns think one season manager projected thrown 60 games hitter could expect 150 times stark really funny stuff weekly baseball reviews good collections strange things happened previous week also regularly prints lance smith moments named manager \( cs umn edu \) oakland 's , mr peanut crushed special limited edition red headed wielding aluminum bat r bb signature murder
kirsch staff tc umn edu \( dave 'almost cursed jays' kirsch \) subject young catchers nntp posting host staff tc umn edu organization li'l carlos hormones lines 31 article 1993apr5 cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu \( edward fischer \) writes sorry , n't fly good players always ready majors early many contributing major leaguers time 22 \? brings interesting point anyone else catch espn 's piece prospects relationship age , career length , mvps hall fame members \? part preseason special basically , looked players 1000 plate appearances \( abs \) time 24 , noticed interesting things starters , found players comprised majority mvps history game also found players represented majority players hall fame kicker , though , actually number crunching found players' careers lasted much longer careers players group also found players produced greater level performance produced twice raw totals \( hrs , etc \) players first group second something like 282 260 raw ba , blew away second group categories hrs , , rbis , etc impressive thing 've seen espn recent memory guess ray knight makes rebuttal tonight dave hung like jim acker slider kirsch blue jays '93 kirsch staff tc umn edu new quotes context ! beat dead horse , 's couple o' weeks disappoints punishments discharges jackhammering stephen lawrence
stwombly cs ulowell edu \( steve twombly \) subject red sox win 1st organization umass lowell computer science lines 8 bosox 3 royals 1 wp clemens \( 1 0 \) lp \( 0 1 \) key hit mike greenwell 's 2 bases loaded
subject quick way tell local beat writer dumb rbd flash ece uc edu \( bobby davis \) organization university cincinnati nntp posting host flash ece uc edu lines 13 bob gajarsky hobokenite writes jayson stark \( 's \) fits perfectly category anyone writes dean palmer 2 homers pace , 'll 324 home runs ! shot bob , think stark sort thing joke , serious prediction n't really see shoot guys ought shot ones keep claiming great chances al west , since evidence indicates n't joking actually believe bob davis rbd thor ece uc edu
thf2 kimbark uchicago edu \( ted frank \) subject young catchers reply thf2 midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 20 article news2 cis umn edu kirsch staff tc umn edu \( dave 'almost cursed jays' kirsch \) writes brings interesting point anyone else catch espn 's piece prospects relationship age , career length , mvps hall fame members \? part preseason special wow espn repeat eleven year old bill james research \( literally check 1982 abstract \) impressive thing 've seen espn recent memory perhaps 'll reliable average sdcn guess ray knight makes rebuttal tonight oops , maybe ted frank however teel mentioned though thf2 kimbark uchicago edu advice legally sound , follow u c law school probably wind jail standard disclaimers james donald , misc legal
pjtier01 ulkyvx louisville edu subject , phils support lines 75 nntp posting host ulkyvx louisville edu organization university louisville article ble news udel edu , philly bach udel edu \( robert c hite \) writes article 1993apr3 1 ulkyvx louisville edu pjtier01 ulkyvx louisville edu writes everytime written net possibility season philadelphia phillies , gotten ripped everybody pittsburgh , care look week 's baseball weekly , see i'm one considers division winners rest respected baseball writers country well reasoning genius writer \? , even though pitching best sound , win strength offense lesse '93 offense '92 offense \( thompson incaviglia \) '92 offense 72 wins '93 division winners \( least \) 88 wins , 88 wins 72 wins \( thompson incaviglia \) therefore , 16 wins thompson incaviglia learn school today \? take math course teacher turns rob , run , n't walk , drop add p tierney obviously n't know hell 're talking , thompson incaviglia n't equal 16 wins , 'll take two stan javier \( 249 1hr , 219 374 ab \) 'd say improvement equate 7 wins least , 'll take lenny dykstra played 85 games last year project numbers \( 301 , 104 hits , 18 2b 's , 6 hr , , 30 sb \) 150 games thus \( 301 , 188 hits , 32 2b 's , , , 54 sb \) okay , 'll put numbers leadoff hole thus bump kruk , hollins , daulton rbi numbers tad lesse knocked 70 , 93 , 109 respectively n't think 's fair add 5 6 rbi \? managed knock pretty nice amount runs 219 leadoff hitter okay bozo , think 's fair add maybe 7 8 wins \? oh , forget wes chamberlain , 275 ab 's 9 hr , 41 rbi even month 1 2 aaa horrible first half well project full season get 18 hr 80 rbi worth win two \? finally , take worse pitching staff nl last year , add worse injury 1992 okay , add danny jackson , health , full season schilling worth least 3 wins \? okay 've conservative added 18 wins far 're adding 4 wins thanks expansion teams okay , thats 22 wins lesse math , 72 22 94 hmmm think thats good enough win worse division baseball \? next time , say something foolish , get clue first ! actually , simply reasoning called genius bw writer agree reasoning foolish next time , say something foolish , aware responding btw , 94 wins funny p tierney
virginia edu \( todd karlin \) subject new uniforms organization university virginia lines 22 usually one two teams changes logo minor uniform change per season , past seasons incredible thoughts new \( old \) reds uniforms remember seeing pete rose rookie card , unless miss guess wearing exact mets \( performance today \? ! ! ! ! ! \) mets patch shoulder , changed mets front jersey knowledge first time changed since 1962 , reminds little dodger logo many teams opted return previous style uniform , least uniforms look traditional \( phillies , reds , expos , white sox , padres , etc \) bright colors altered gray trend also seen newer baseball fields resembling parks early years , opposed cookie cutter throughout sixties salaries reaching unbelievable , one 's office , inter league play horizon , 's nice see baseball least looks like meant
kbanaian bernard pitzer claremont edu \( king banaian \) subject players overpaid \? lines 40 organization pitzer college ted frank 's list players p , juan guzman , 500 p , mussina , 400 p , castillo , 250 p , eldred , 175 p , rhodes , 155 p , militello , 118 rp , , 300 rp , beck , 250 rp , , 235 rp , hernandez , 185 rp , nied , 150 c , rodriguez , 275 c , piazza , 126 1b , thomas , 900 1b , bagwell , 655 2b , knoblauch , 500 2b , , 190 3b , gomez , 312 5 3b , palmer , 250 ss , listach , 350 ss , pena , 170 lf , gonzalez , 525 cf , lankford , 290 rf , r sanders , 275 , plantier , 245 players common \? qualify arbitration never free agents 's called reserve clause look year whine several guys way overpaid getting outrageous raises arb king sparky banaian taxes new taxes , kbanaian pitzer claremont edu old taxes , taxed dept economics , pitzer college enough rep alan latest 1993 gdp forecast 2 4 \( please run , alan ! \)
rickc krill corp sgi com \( richard casares \) subject vegas odds \? nntp posting host krill corp sgi com organization silicon graphics , inc lines 6 anyone list vegas odds teams making world series \? 'd appreciate mailing thanks , rickc corp sgi com
aardvark cygnus la locus com \( warren usui \) subject rec sport baseball fantasy organization locus computing corporation , los angeles , california lines 40 april 1 , 1993 participating nl league uses standard rules except following used position players lowest batting average strike outs caught stealing errors pitchers losses blown saves era allowed fifth year 've participated league last year pennant due primarily fact terrible pitching would like lower batting average rather high jose offerman \( made helping lock first place errors \) anyway , someone offered andres bud black afford give bud black still kyle abbott however , afraid andres actually well season make trade \? comments appreciated warren usui i'm one universe scale 1 10
leo bsuvc bsu edu subject jim lefebvre idiot organization ball state university , muncie , univ computing svc 's lines 14 wanted let everyone know lost little respect jim lefebvre seeing today 's cubs game first could start maldonado may way may played end last year way tore cactus league could let sit bench \? mention right hander \( maddux \) started really blew top lefebvre pinch hit rick wilkins tommy shields ! lefty righty thing , much made wilkins twice hitter shields next batter jose vizcaino , one weakest hitters ever seen , looked terrible bat day , let hit , may still sat bench think even arnie harris showed may sitting dugout vizcaino batting face lefebvre got worst manager baseball cub fan
horan cse unl edu \( mark horan \) subject best second baseman \? article crcnis1 distribution usa organization university nebraska lincoln lines 29 nntp posting host cse unl edu thf2 ellis uchicago edu \( ted frank \) writes article 1993mar29 sarah albany edu albnyvms bitnet writes personally , think alomar hype producing incredibly , long run , never put numbers sandberg moment , alomar may best , overall sandberg wins long shot sandberg alomar 's age , putting 261 seasons power alomar 's 1992 oba 25 points higher sandberg 's career high alomar 's career high doubles triples higher sandberg 's sandberg still better alomar , alomar n't reached full potential yet alomar 's got 2 5 year sandberg \( 862 hits sandberg n't 862 hits 26 \) , likely put better career numbers sandberg everything except home runs 'll pass sandberg stolen bases sometime 1995 sandberg particulary known stolen bases competition alomar \? sandberg came year ripken , year boggs , gwynn , magicians less attention given sandberg alomar one class worth mediocre besides numbers n't count national league pitchers much better pitchers larry someone elses account mark horan horan cse unl edu
hardy u washington edu \( \) subject jim lefebvre idiot organization university washington lines 19 nntp posting host hardy u washington edu leo bsuvc bsu edu writes wanted let everyone know lost little respect jim lefebvre seeing today 's cubs game first could etc vizcaino batting face lefebvre got worst manager baseball cub fan hey , 's manager far lead seattle mariners winning season , , , fifteen \? give credit dave ''' u washington edu david c carroll c oo big science hallelujah
cs arizona edu \( david k \) subject giants' gm quinn genius ! organization u arizona cs dept , tucson lines 22 article odin corp sgi com luigi sgi com \( randy palermo \) writes clark matt williams robbie thompson rod beck came giants system geez everyone comes clark , williams , thompson guys 1987 's ancient history last 6 years , noone , right \? beck n't count said 2 solid years btw , manwaring lead ml last season throwing baserunners excellent defensive catcher agree offensive skills limited seem improving let 's see w help every pitch remember , even bob good percentage roger craig , loved sacrifice count runners thrown course , suffered 3 ball 1 strike homers lot big fan manwaring dave
gt0523e prism gatech edu \( michael andre mule \) subject harry candy distribution world , local organization georgia institute technology lines 19 like way butchers andres galarraga 's name y'all lighten harry , skip 'll like couple years ! ! comes like n't forget frequent references great sf giant star bobby bonds ! harry 's great personality 's reason like cubs broadcasts \( 's certainly quality team \) chop chop michael mule' michael andre mule georgia institute technology , atlanta georgia , 30332 uucp ! decvax , hplabs , ncar , purdue , rutgers ! gatech ! prism ! gt0523e internet gt0523e prism gatech edu
ns1 cc lehigh edu \( patrick \) subject l east best baseball ! organization lehigh university lines 27 doubt true \? years , l east back early eighties emergence 's yanks , far away best n l west best team baseball , reds n't bad either , nothing else giants , astros , padres talent , teams found l east dodgers plain suck rockies , knows \? l east defending champs , although lost lot free agency , toronto still one best baseball orioles preseason favorite win cy young mike mussina , never forget ripken harold harold reynolds n't hurt much either , although always liked bill ripken let lot go summer \( randy milligan , joe , bill ripken , bob , sam horn , storm davis , craig \) , kept heart team intact predicted finish 1 baltimore \( could biased opinion \) 2 ny yankees 3 toronto 4 milwaukee 5 detroit 6 boston 7 cleveland \( would higher accident \) go 's ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
gajarsky pilot njin net \( bob gajarsky hobokenite \) subject belated predictions \( nl \) article pilot apr 6 00 29 46 1993 organization somewhere hoboken lines 13 briefly , since i'm sleep mle 's work pretty well aa nd aaa players players 22 younger tend explosions numbers , whether 's , next 2 years players 26 older , levels , generally inflated mle 's 're reliable major league stats player bob gaj
gajarsky pilot njin net \( bob gajarsky hobokenite \) subject quick way tell local beat writer dumb article pilot apr 6 00 33 22 1993 distribution na organization somewhere hoboken lines 7 ok sorry n't realise sarcastic sort things 'll tell , mike lupica \( daily news \) usually says pretty funny things shooting lip columns bob gaj
u96 vaxc stevens tech edu subject phils still looking immaculate ! lines 18 organization stevens institute technology ladies gentleman , step one taken triumphant trip year tonight ! \( yes , english ! \) 's era tonight 's game \? 0 00 nice try ! ninja jew
rauser fraser sfu ca \( richard john rauser \) subject quick easy question ! organization simon fraser university , burnaby , b c , canada lines 14 's easy question someone knows nothing baseball city california angels play \? richard j rauser idea 're rauser sfu ca oh , n't worry 're professional wni outlaws living remember , matter go , dr banzai
ritvax isc rit edu subject , phils support nntp posting host vaxc isc rit edu reply ritvax isc rit edu organization rochester institute technology phillies picked first someone replied people picked people picked mets last year reply yeah , may true , phillies fritz
thf2 kimbark uchicago edu \( ted frank \) subject quick way tell local beat writer dumb article midway 1993apr6 reply thf2 midway uchicago edu distribution na organization university chicago lines 16 article apr 6 00 33 22 1993 pilot njin net gajarsky pilot njin net \( bob gajarsky hobokenite \) writes ok sorry n't realise sarcastic sort things 'll tell , mike lupica \( daily news \) usually says pretty funny things shooting lip columns bob gaj y'know , current trends continue , florida marlins first expansion team go 162 0 opponents 486 runs ted frank however teel mentioned though thf2 kimbark uchicago edu advice legally sound , follow u c law school probably wind jail standard disclaimers james donald , misc legal
psych uiuc edu \( patricia keenan \) subject quick easy question ! organization uiuc department psychology lines 16 rauser fraser sfu ca \( richard john rauser \) writes 's easy question someone knows nothing baseball city california angels play \? anaheim richard j rauser idea 're rauser sfu ca oh , n't worry 're professional wni outlaws living remember , matter go , dr banzai
pmafire inel gov \( william \) subject trivia question ! ! distribution usa organization winco lines 19 ok trivia buffs , good one 1 prior foul bunt rule record foul balls 1 batter one bat \? 2 total pitches \? 3 batter \? 4 pitcher \? 5 1 4 except foul bunt rule associated data would nice \( date , location , teams , etc \) bill pmafire inel gov
thf2 kimbark uchicago edu \( ted frank \) subject best second baseman \? reply thf2 midway uchicago edu organization university chicago distribution usa lines 22 article crcnis1 unl edu horan cse unl edu \( mark horan \) writes sandberg particulary known stolen bases competition alomar \? sandberg came year ripken , year boggs , gwynn , magicians less attention given sandberg alomar one class worth mediocre besides numbers n't count national league pitchers much better pitchers 're right thomas , gonzalez , sheffield , griffey n't even begin compare ripken , boggs , gwynn , wonder alomar gets much attention sandberg got attention rookie year rookie year terrible sophomore year national league pitchers much better pitchers \? certainly explains sheffield 's 1993 , hm \? confusing era 's 0 40 lower n't face dh 's much better \? ted frank however teel mentioned though thf2 kimbark uchicago edu advice legally sound , follow u c law school probably wind jail standard disclaimers james donald , misc legal
kbos carina unm edu \( k mitchell bose \) subject espn expansion organization university new mexico , albuquerque lines 38 nntp posting host carina unm edu article 7c0 ucdavis edu dale ucdavis edu \( trump \) writes watching peter gammons espn last night , 's got little confused talking expansion , started mentioning people might benefit fringe players 'll facing mcgriff hitting 50 home runs , sheffield getting 150 rbi 's , glavine winning 25 games , course , reference happened times baseball expanded \( early 60 's , late 60 's , late 70 's \) really confused , though , mention al players would well next year specifically , roger clemens winning 25 games , likes mcgwire gonzalez hitting 50 home runs question hell rockies marlins help al \? last time looked , n't lot talent jumping leagues miss something \? persist believing peter gammons knowledgable baseball average mailbox okay , i'm still , man actually gall say one every six pitchers nl year pitch majors last year huh \? imo , expansion see explosive jump offense expansion drafts , since talent diluted leagues defense , talent drain came al well , increase seen also gets credit mentioning 1969 jump offense due also rules changes 1968 season 's still full kurt bose \( daisy , rose \) kbos carina unm edu take f ks , 18 page book wally , though copy mets teammate lenny dykstra 's autobiography , nails
subject bo good player , shorts \( plus idiots \) guilford otago ac nz 1993apr5 1 otago ac nz dv murdoch acc virginia edu organization university otago , dunedin , new zealand nntp posting host otago ac nz lines 106 article dv murdoch acc virginia edu , drw3l delmarva evsc virginia edu \( david robert walker \) writes bo jackson 1963 1988 kcr 437 106 16 4 23 28 29 7 253 67 243 288 455 1989 kcr 517 134 19 5 33 41 27 10 274 92 259 314 507 1990 kcr 405 110 17 1 27 44 16 9 286 77 272 343 519 1991 cws 71 16 3 0 3 12 0 1 240 10 225 337 394 maj 1430 366 55 10 86 125 72 27 270 246 256 316 489 maj 598 153 23 4 36 52 30 11 jackson looked like 88 91 , everything converted neutral park , basis run production equivalent average started 253 88 , 274 89 286 90 let us say established , last two seasons , 280 level play i'm quite sure numbers generated appears neutral park bo 's hr slugging tend drop \( actually loses two home runs \) \? equivalent average \? one thing , looking bo 's stats , see kc took away homers normally , expect would homers go doubles triples big parks , caught , matter expect lots doubles triples anyway bo , despite speed , hit doubles many triples would expect value risen quite considerably neutral park good good , fact probably n't make top ten league 10th best eqa al 1992 dave winfield 's 296 thomas first 350 first nl bonds , 378 tenth roberts , 297 280 better season past five years joe carter mattingly 1988 \( 285 \) felix jose last two years ahead time five year average better ryan klesko 's felix jose 350 440 player fairly neutral park would offhand guess bo around 330 530 player maybe 330 550 even close got attention media warranted baseball playing , though hype lot better hitting basis net comments overrated media would beleive great hitter think good , maybe good hitter imo , something like 30th best hitter majors 'd put note n't realized media hyped much thought always viewed better football player , baseball one 30 hr , 100 rbi season , kc n't winning note 2 maybe bit past , mistake made \( sdcn 's , known , group \) respect players like bo deion lofton \( perhaps others \) find , look large group players , past major minor league numbers predict future numbers fairly well caveats younger , less good prediction lower minor league , less good \( imagine \) , recent player left college ball , etc course , prediction involves quite bit error sometimes player poor mle 's \( dave justice , 1990 ventura \) becomes star hitters develop \( shane mack , brian downing \) , n't \( mcdowell , mickey \) error involves real things real reasons n't hit shane may \( knows \) involve parks batting coaches injuries lifting still , big pool players , things work pretty well one reasons predictions accuracy common background players one thing know professional baseball players \( almost \) spent good deal time playing ball backgrounds similar n't established happens encounter player different background \? reason believe bo , deion , lofton , tony gwynn \( \? \) , , , different background , standard model standard assumptions fit person slowly \? n't established use mle 's two sport players \( n't established ca n't , statistics , , art \) personally think otherwise lucid individuals continually make completely statements bo deion lofton look good great minor league numbers , say well , happens numbers simply n't mean usually mean \? might mean ken lofton suddenly better year houston tuscon might mean deion suddenly better half year atlanta greenville , might ken deion might go right back tank year , live poor mle 's guys know 's worse , n't know n't n't know players wo n't know injuries lifting seem think model perfect eternal 's 's got error oh well bill guilford still thinks hairy butt truly ugly might right
wkuvx1 bitnet subject belated predictions \( nl \) organization western kentucky university , bowling green , ky lines 56 article jsc netcom com , mss netcom com \( mark singer \) writes article apr 4 19 42 08 1993 pilot njin net gajarsky pilot njin net \( bob gajarsky hobokenite \) writes 've said braves would improve injury well 's javier lopez better catcher greg olson ryan better bream jones better shortstop anyone braves put mel nieves better nixon sanders 's forces play young guys bob gaj continue amazed comments lopez might day better catcher olson , find totally amazing suggest 22 year old three seasons professional baseball better olson , five year mlb veteran noted ability call game , better average arm oh , perhaps talking hitting well , sure , lopez might hit better perhaps probably ever history baseball 22 year old \( younger \) rookie catcher compared favorably among league catchers terms defense brought 247 bat \? n't yes , ivan rodriguez , last year batted 260 threw 51 baserunners rookie aa 20 years old last year sandy alomar supposed good rookie year \? n't santiago supposed good rookie year \? continue thread others mentioned , get point others seem quick dismiss veterans favor hot young rookies perhaps perhaps management team pennant winning braves knows something perhaps know , 21 22 year old rookies come majors make impact beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com roy f wait till tommy meets lord western kentucky university finds 's wearing opinions contained herein perry \( talking lasorda \) mine , 's sin baseball , way spend day ! !
uxa cso uiuc edu \( \) subject jim lefebvre idiot article news organization university illinois urbana lines 9 totally agree point made jose looked like single hitter swings 3 1 count maddux pitching teams run , n't touched ball day also think much made lefty righty thing watching cubs games get feeling steve stone knows lot cubs harry said best stated another terrible vizcaino bat ca n't wait til sandberg returns !
silver ucs indiana edu \( brian \) subject new uniforms article usenet organization indiana university lines 37 nntp posting host silver ucs indiana edu 1993apr5 636 virginia edu virginia edu \( todd karlin \) writes usually one two teams changes logo minor uniform change per season , past seasons incredible thoughts new \( old \) reds uniforms remember seeing pete rose rookie card , unless miss guess wearing exact mets \( performance today \? ! ! ! ! ! \) mets patch shoulder , changed mets front jersey knowledge first time changed since 1962 , reminds little dodger logo far know , toronto , pittsburgh , new york \( nl \) change uniforms every year every year \( e g , new york \) , say mets , new york , new york caps minor changes , change often last year , think new york caps toronto blue jays toronto last year \? pittsburgh \? many teams opted return previous style uniform , least uniforms look traditional \( phillies , reds , expos , white sox , padres , etc \) bright colors altered gray trend also seen newer baseball fields resembling parks early years , opposed cookie cutter throughout sixties hate gray opt color \( like white sox \) hate white team versus gray team spring training uniforms look much better salaries reaching unbelievable , one 's office , inter league play horizon , 's nice see baseball least looks like meant
niepornt phoenix princeton edu \( david marc nieporent \) subject jim lefebvre idiot article 1993apr6 organization princeton university lines 21 originator news nimaster nntp posting host phoenix princeton edu news cso uiuc edu uxa cso uiuc edu \( \) writes totally agree point made jose looked like single hitter swings 3 1 count maddux pitching teams run , n't touched ball day \? oh , easy trivia question answer cub named sandberg grace also think much made lefty righty thing watching cubs games get feeling steve stone knows lot cubs harry said best stated another terrible vizcaino bat ca n't wait til sandberg returns ! david nieporent one thing wrong theory niepornt phoenix stupid ! stupidest theory ever heard ! princeton edu baltimore orioles 93 's dangerous cult bds batf \?
welchgate welch jhu edu \( robert \) subject billy gets cheers baltimore ! organization johns hopkins univ welch medical library distribution na lines 41 article jhuvms hcf jhu edu doctor8 jhuvms hcf jhu edu \( jason abner miller \) writes orioles vs texas camden yards , april 5 , opening day batting 9th texas , playing second base billy ripken crowd gave favorite ex 2nd baseman 2 minute standing ovation billy , wearing flashy shades , took cheers smiling waving role player \( words p caller jon miller \) tim failed receive similar cheers announced mainly n't courtesy show n't injured yesterday hit face ball running bases \? heard something recieving possible broken nose park \? fernando warmly received , good see let 's see feel 's 0 4 4 9 era doubts fernando f , cal announced , jon miller says seems like yesterday young man began consecutive game streak 10 time star , 2 time mvp , 2 time gold glover , future hall fame , batting 3rd , cal ripken standing lasted 15 seconds 1 45 less billy well , fan favorite gets dumped , 's gonna get outstanding ovation first return let 's add cal recieved years game compare billy btw , sutcliffe 's getting knocked around pretty good rangers 5 1 bottom fourth rob
aardvark la locus com \( warren usui \) subject quick way tell local beat writer dumb organization locus computing corporation , los angeles , california lines 14 article apr 5 16 22 48 1993 pilot njin net gajarsky pilot njin net \( bob gajarsky hobokenite \) writes anyone writes dean palmer 2 homers pace , 'll 324 home runs ! shot dodgers one inning play committed one error rate 'll 1 , 455 errors season ! well maybe i'm right time warren usui i'm one universe scale 1 10
niepornt phoenix princeton edu \( david marc nieporent \) subject designated hitter rule originator news nimaster nntp posting host phoenix princeton edu organization princeton university lines 17 ekdfc 14 0 ttacs1 ttu edu ekdfc ttacs1 ttu edu \( david coons \) writes 1993apr4 bsu ucs leo bsuvc bsu edu writes paper designated hitter rule information even opinions would greatly magic rescinded rules say baseball game two teams nine players let 's keep way rules n't say 's pretty dumb argument david nieporent one thing wrong theory niepornt phoenix stupid ! stupidest theory ever heard ! princeton edu baltimore orioles 93 's dangerous cult bds batf \?
str eng sun com \( todd \) subject rickey henderson organization sun lines 6 distribution usa nntp posting host article 1993apr5 ra msstate edu js1 isis msstate edu \( jiann ming su \) writes say buy henderson 's contract let go bag groceries next season , 'll able sign nothing goes bitching ball player stay school lot learn
organization university maine system ryan robbins io20456 maine maine edu subject designated hitter rule 1993apr5 hpcvaac cv hp com lines 8 actually , number players side 25 man roster , 40 man roster , etc ryan robbins penobscot hall university maine io20456 maine maine edu
organization university maine system ryan robbins io20456 maine maine edu subject \( wo n't \) win lines 10 n't knock vaughn spring training 400 hitter 250 regular season hitter around 30 games played n't indication good hitter , quality pitching way ryan robbins penobscot hall university maine io20456 maine maine edu
iccgcc decnet ab com subject david wells lines 5 david wells landed team yet \? 'd think tigers anemic pitching would grab guy pronto ! dc
cis ohio state edu \( mark edward \) subject cleveland tragedy organization ohio state university dept computer info science lines 12 nntp posting host cis ohio state edu article 1993apr5 ns1 cc lehigh edu ns1 cc lehigh edu \( gail \) writes wonder sue anyone career may due accident got \( really \) bad , meant due floating fastball , well mark , k cis ohio state edu graduate student computer science dept , ohio state university \( ohio state university \) seen
genetic pitt edu \( david tate \) subject pinch hitters \( denny \) article blue organization department industrial engineering lines 20 rickert nextwork rose hulman edu \( john h rickert \) said \( thought n't really start pinch hitting living 1973 \) depends mean living 1974 year led league pinch hit bats 50 , 'd getting lot ph abs earlier , never full time player 20 35 ph abs early career , 15 20 year going dodgers , 30 50 peak years 're talking guy 20 year career outfielder , 300 career batting average , career hits david tate \( know closes posing opens something understands e e \( pocket glove deeper pete rose 's \) dy \) cummings nobody , even tim raines , soft hands
genetic pitt edu \( david tate \) subject marlins win ! marlins win ! article blue organization department industrial engineering lines 13 dwarner journalism indiana edu said caught tail end one espn anyone report \? \( look teal ! ! ! ! bleah ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! \) maybe 's , combination young faces peeking oversized aqua helmets screams little league every david tate \( know closes posing opens something understands e e \( pocket glove deeper pete rose 's \) dy \) cummings nobody , even tim raines , soft hands
magnus acs ohio state edu \( christopher wamsley \) subject new uniforms article magnus 1993apr6 organization ohio state university lines 19 nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu article usenet ucs indiana edu silver ucs indiana edu \( br ian \) writes far know , toronto , pittsburgh , new york \( nl \) change uniforms every year every year \( e g , new york \) , say mets , new york , new york caps minor changes , change often last year , think new york caps toronto blue jays toronto last year \? pittsburgh \? depends uniforms talking last couple years believe toronto pittsburgh used uniforms , least similar home jerseys team nick name \( blue jays pirates \) , road jerseys name city \( toronto pittsburgh \) believe way teams design uniforms chris
hagins avlin8 us dg com \( jody hagins \) subject 's lose home rangers reply hagins avlin8 us dg com organization data general corporation , , md lines 11 sutcliffe gives 3 hrs \( gonzales 1 , palmer 2 \) mills gives 1 hr \( gonzales \) lose 7 4 sutcliffe texas 7 10 0 1 0 baltimore 4 9 0 sutcliffe 0 1 jody hagins hagins avlin8 us dg com data general corporation , , md
reiniger ug cs dal ca \( darren reiniger \) subject mlb logos part 3 summary national league east posted nntp posting host ug cs dal ca organization math , stats cs , dalhousie university , halifax , ns , canada lines 10 posted logos nl east teams alt binaries pictures misc hopefully , 'll finish series next week nl west darren darren reiniger reiniger ug cs dal ca arishem ac dal ca centre marine geology , dalhousie university , halifax , n , canada people wonder generation going remind came first place
kenney tribe b17d ingr com \( david kenney \) subject 1993 predictions reply kenney tribe b17d ingr com organization intergraph corporation , huntsville , alabama lines 57 thought 'd post predicted standings since find posted others interesting sorry opening day completed first pitch \) al east 1 new york yankees \( \? \) improved team division 2 toronto blue jays stewart morris \? way 3 milwaukee brewers always seem better expect 4 baltimore orioles pitching , , anderson , drop 5 cleveland indians still n't seem know 6 detroit tigers key players fryman another year past peak 7 boston red sox team clemens viola might beter 7th al west division toughest pick whoever top 4 gets pitching win 1 minnesota twins young pitchers seem best chance success 2 texas rangers n't know jose canseco \? 3 chicago white sox frank thomas pitching 4 oakland 's larussa best manager would keep team close 5 seattle mariners like , n't see much 6 kansas city royals score runs 7 california angels win games nl east 1 montreal expos good around , plus wallach ! 2 st louis cardinals \( jeffries whiten \) \( jose clark \) , galarraga 3 pittsburgh pirates youngsters take slack expected 4 new york mets good players , still team 5 philadelphia phillies n't impress 6 florida marlins know 're 7 chicago cubs n't know 're nl west 2 best teams baseball division 1 atlanta braves awesome starters , offense could concern 2 cincinnati reds would surprise 3 houston astros team signs uribe wo n't contend closer 4 2 4 san diego padres plantier could sheffield 1993 5 los angeles dodgers better pitching giants 6 san francisco giants rockies stink 7 colorado rockies become seattle mariners nl nlcs montreal atlanta \( braves fans , yes i'm probably contradicting said nl west comment \) alcs new york minnesota world series new york montreal hating yankees fashionable nl mvp barry bonds , maybe mcgriff nl cy young jose al mvp frank thomas deserve \( \) , fielder might win al cy young roger clemens \( least deserve \( \) \) david kenney kenney tribe b17d ingr com
netcom com \( scotty tissue \) subject 15 day , 30 day , 60 day disabled list questions organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 20 've curiousity whenever person put 15 day , 30 day 60 day , person list longer time 've seen person 15 day maybe 4 months last year , n't remember need little clarification disabled list specifications scott allen go cleveland ! ! nba finals '93 ! ! ! ! ! ! netcom netcom com go cleveland indians ! ! ! ! world series '93 ! ! ! ! digex digex com go cleveland ! ! ! ! ! super bowl '94 ! ! ! ! ! !
genetic pitt edu \( david tate \) subject young catchers article blue organization department industrial engineering lines 115 mss netcom com \( mark singer \) said know , players age make much impact bigs , especially n't even played aaa ball yes irrelevant 're talking averages , lots information player particular base decisions might well say know , people 7 feet tall , chances really 6 foot 4 maybe need improve writing skills lopez , ordinary defensively , likely hit well age 22 \( played aaa level \) probably good idea rush braves lineup 1993 n't lopez likely hit well \? hit well last year \( adjusting stats park league \) hit better \( absolute scale \) olson berryhill lot rushing really qualitative difference minors majors requires period adjustment \( n't believe \) , would n't rather waste lopez 's 22 year old good season 23 year old good season 24 year old excellent season \? sooner get acclimated , prime get use lopez hitting 588 17 ab cut spring training earn chance \? maybe full time job , least couple starts ab prove worth \? gee n't know 17 abs sounds pretty good ! good reasoning kid play back role rather start every day aaa talk gm point 17 ab significant sample , rather n't done anything spring training cause even manager question whether minor league numbers real , send gets warmed ok players ready bigs age 22 players never ready bigs lopez \? players benefit , rather hurt , playing aaa see catchers need solid defensively players help clubs bigs arguments lopez braves year could apply reasoning frank thomas barry bonds players n't good , probably wo n't good year either braves two catchers demonstrated solid abilities call games , work pitchers , throw runners demonstrated hit way soap bubble superstars mind , solid , experienced veterans superstars , stars , even good players maybe average , 're charitable braves solid lineup two big bats outfield , excellent platoon first , solid mvp candidate third one better hitting shortstops ummm justice fine hitter pendleton might another big year bat , might also spend season hell gant big question mark bream hunter platoon decent \( excellent \) rotten obp slg \( depending 's \) blauser valuable bat shortstop center field platoon probably hit 300 however good bat might \( given \) wo n't much better offset differential experience defensive ability wanna bet \? difference lopez 's bat olson berryhill could 20 30 runs course season given choice player experience player play , 'll take latter every time kid improve playing aaa , like keith mitchell \? surprised spell goodness believe poster thinks lopez held future earning potential \? , far counter proposal really n't understand good lopez , experience , combination two think interpretation flattering organization idiots built \? well argued inflammatory reply deleted david tate \( know closes posing opens something understands e e \( pocket glove deeper pete rose 's \) dy \) cummings nobody , even tim raines , soft hands
genetic pitt edu \( david tate \) subject young catchers article blue organization department industrial engineering lines 65 mss netcom com \( mark singer \) said article blue cis pitt edu genetic pitt edu \( david tate \) writes well , perhaps braves one else worth playing year would lopez others worth playing , least opinion catcher weakest position , possible exception second base chance simultaneously replace biggest offensive problem spot well average offensive player highly promising potential star pressure carry team , want play olson berryhill instead \? ! disagree , n't think tangible skill , leadership n't deny real skill , catchers may much better others , really n't see way could ever know nichols 's law catcher defense accurate far often take defensive catchers seriously sorry new n't know law catcher 's defensive reputation inversely proportional recent offensive level performance thus , mickey tettleton goes \( media \) hit defensive whiz slugging thumb finger two short years rule n't apply perceived superstars , get gold glove offensive transfer effect instead greg olson probably considered good defensive catcher precisely ca n't hit n't believe era interested pitchers' eras different catchers n't thing \? words , know , logic behind different decision would make must financial either stupidity presume feel way franchises atlanta , \? course fair young players \? make organizational sense \? think well make organizational sense , one hardly fault decisions mean , please n't tell run business especially i'm successful one could make sort argument cases pete rose , pursuing ty cobb 's record , huge gate attraction \( national media magnet \) reds made lot money also wasted prime eric davis may good business , n't mean n't loathe david tate \( know closes posing opens something understands e e \( pocket glove deeper pete rose 's \) dy \) cummings nobody , even tim raines , soft hands
jtchern ocf berkeley edu \( joseph hernandez \) subject mlb standings scores tue , apr 6th , 1993 keywords mlb , 04 06 article agate distribution world organization jtc enterprises sports division \( major league baseball dept \) lines 72 nntp posting host monsoon berkeley edu mlb standings scores tuesday , april 6th , 1993 \( including yesterday 's games \) national west lost pct gb last 10 streak home road atlanta braves 01 00 1 000 1 0 1 00 00 01 00 cincinnati reds 01 00 1 000 1 0 1 01 00 00 00 san diego padres 00 00 000 0 5 0 0 00 00 00 00 san francisco giants 00 00 000 0 5 0 0 00 00 00 00 colorado rockies 00 01 000 1 0 0 1 lost 1 00 00 00 01 houston astros 00 01 000 1 0 0 1 lost 1 00 01 00 00 los angeles dodgers 00 01 000 1 0 0 1 lost 1 00 00 00 01 national east florida marlins 01 00 1 000 1 0 1 01 00 00 00 new york mets 01 00 1 000 1 0 1 01 00 00 00 philadelphia phillies 01 00 1 000 1 0 1 00 00 01 00 pittsburgh pirates 00 00 000 0 5 0 0 00 00 00 00 st louis cardinals 00 00 000 0 5 0 0 00 00 00 00 chicago cubs 00 01 000 1 0 0 1 lost 1 00 01 00 00 montreal expos 00 01 000 1 0 0 1 lost 1 00 00 00 01 american west lost pct gb last 10 streak home road oakland athletics 01 00 1 000 1 0 1 01 00 00 00 texas rangers 01 00 1 000 1 0 1 00 00 01 00 california angels 00 00 000 0 5 0 0 00 00 00 00 chicago white sox 00 00 000 0 5 0 0 00 00 00 00 minnesota twins 00 00 000 0 5 0 0 00 00 00 00 seattle mariners 00 00 000 0 5 0 0 00 00 00 00 kansas city royals 00 01 000 1 0 0 1 lost 1 00 01 00 00 american east boston red sox 01 00 1 000 1 0 1 00 00 01 00 new york yankees 01 00 1 000 1 0 1 00 00 01 00 milwaukee brewers 00 00 000 0 5 0 0 00 00 00 00 toronto blue jays 00 00 000 0 5 0 0 00 00 00 00 baltimore orioles 00 01 000 1 0 0 1 lost 1 00 01 00 00 cleveland indians 00 01 000 1 0 0 1 lost 1 00 01 00 00 detroit tigers 00 01 000 1 0 0 1 lost 1 00 00 00 01 yesterday's scores national league american league montreal 1 new york 9 cincinnati 2 cleveland 1 atlanta 1 texas 7 chicago 0 baltimore 4 los angeles 3 boston 3 florida 6 kansas city 1 philadelphia 3 detroit 4 houston 1 oakland 9 colorado 0 california idle new york 3 chicago idle pittsburgh idle milwaukee idle st louis idle minnesota idle san diego idle seattle idle san toronto idle joseph hernandez rams lakers jtchern ocf berkeley edu kings dodgers raiders jtcent soda berkeley edu angels clippers
dseg ti com \( danny smith \) subject braves win opener nntp posting host dseg ti com reply dseg ti com organization texas instruments , inc lines 15 well , maddux looked excellent braves shutout cubs 1 0 justice drove run rbi single first get ready monster year hitting ball opposite field lot power go natural power right field good batting eye stays healthy \( back full strength year \) get 100 rbi close 30 hr another note , marlins got good start beating dodgers believe score 6 3 i'm sure wish rockies well year hell think would funny watch dodgers hit cellar year dan smith
jmann vineland pubs stratus com \( jim mann \) subject rickey henderson article transfer reply jmann vineland pubs stratus com distribution usa organization stratus computer inc , marlboro lines 57 nntp posting host pubs stratus com article 1993apr6 ra msstate edu js1 isis msstate edu \( jiann ming su \) writes article appserv eng sun com str eng sun com \( todd \) writes stay school lot learn learn \? know 3 million dollars lot money know rickey henderson n't career baseball know n't baseball , would n't making near money michael jackson , jack nicholson , bill would n't making near much money n't 's point \? n't understand athlete , plays sport living millions dollars , say paid enough nobody sign asking price , one hurting 's still win without \? ca n't usually take away one team 's best players still expect win think pirates continue win without barry bonds remeber , many athletes nothing athletic ability nothing getting paid much hard working citizens , complaining enough pay , jack nicholson gets paid much hard working citizens \( much rickey henderson matter \) n't problem making millions problem say n't paid enough , already get 3 million also , numbers get worse reason latter often happens many folks start making real big salaries late career , decline \( exceptions , course dave parker fell apart making first million put million nose \) jim mann stratus computer jmann vineland pubs stratus com
mta ca \( john hunter \) subject white sox mailing list \? reply mta ca organization mount allison u , , n b canada lines 9 hi gang , 'd like subscribe white sox mailing list , one exists someone please e mail address \? thanks alot , john mta ca
guvax acc georgetown edu subject new uniforms distribution world organization georgetown university lines 10 enjoy trend towards classic style uniform disagree person wants return non gray road uniforms remembered one , reason uniforms , especially hats \( new road green 's caps cardinal navy blue road cap \) , marketing money made sales new merchandise jeffrey popovich guvax georgetown edu
harvard edu \( michael \) subject help looking cleveland sports mailing list info organization dana cancer institute lines 14 distribution world nntp posting host harvard edu i'm looking address join cleveland sports mailing list anyone knows , would greatful could email copy member , mail one list 's letters could probably figure thanks ! mm mm michael j f dept microbiology molecular genetics harvard medical school f boston , 02115 harvard edu
iastate edu \( dan \) subject brewer notes organization iowa state university , ames ia lines 26 music lib edu music lib edu writes know bernie brewer , 's back team , , given walking papers years ago , fans voted back last season familiar home outfield slide barrel beer home runs hit great hear may take trip year see last time saw bernie brewer age 10 21 thanks post one final note , bill leading brewers 13 rbi 's exhibition play looks like 's bouncing back nicely back problems good bill getting better form limited coverage get iowa know great season brew crew ! ! pete , computer operator leadership action office information technology position milwaukee area technical college h email music lib edu \( internet \) pete z1 fidonet org
luigi sgi com \( randy palermo \) subject grateful dead \? organization silicon graphics , inc , mountain view , ca lines 16 nntp posting host bullpen csd sgi com article 93095 maine maine edu maine maine edu writes baseball fan fan mentioned band wondering anyone could clue whether dead \( members \) sang national anthem todays giant opener \? would imagine bit early anyone know , answer would greatly appreciated understanding dead sing na giants home opener mon 4 12 giants opening today st louis luigi randy palermo luigi csd sgi com fax \( 415 \) 961 6502 silicon graphics computer systems , 2011 n shoreline blvd mt view , ca 94039 play , go jail 's law
kbanaian bernard pitzer claremont edu \( king banaian \) subject 15 day , 30 day , 60 day disabled list questions article bernard kbanaian 448 organization pitzer college lines 25 article netcom com netcom com \( scotty tissue \) writes whenever person put 15 day , 30 day 60 day , person list longer time 've seen person 15 day maybe 4 months last year , n't remember need little clarification disabled list specifications believe two 15 day 60 day \( n't remember 30 day , rather 21 day anyways , 's gone \) period length minimum , maximum keep guy 15 day long want , 's still certified injured player must periodically evaluated determine 's still injured \( thus cannot park player dl maybe options wish expose waivers \) get someone qualified 60 day reduces frequency evaluations longer , believe , limit number players place dl , often choose juggle injured players lists king sparky banaian taxes new taxes , kbanaian pitzer claremont edu old taxes , taxed dept economics , pitzer college enough rep alan latest 1993 gdp forecast 2 4 \( please run , alan ! \)
ur msstate edu subject mo sanford article ra 1993apr6 reply ur msstate edu organization mississippi state university lines 6 nntp posting host ur msstate edu article 1993apr3 ra msstate edu js1 jazz cc msstate edu \( jiann ming su \) writes know mo sanford , rockies pitcher , got cut \? use reds , drafted expansion draft believe sent aaa
kkeller mail sas upenn edu \( keith keller \) subject predictions 1993 article netnews organization university pennsylvania , school arts sciences lines 17 nntp posting host mail sas upenn edu article 1993apr5 oswego oswego edu iacs3650 oswego oswego edu \( kevin mundstock \) writes since everyone else seems running wild predictions , 've decided add fuel fire might seem bit normal , \( albeit , small \) surprises al manager year buck showalter makes think buck still new york year 's end george back \? \) keith keller let's go rangers ! ! ! ! ! let's go quakers ! ! ! ! ! kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs ! ! ! ! next time go head , 'll platter cmdr benjamin , 1993
neuharth hardy u washington edu \( john neuharth \) subject new uniforms article shelley organization university washington lines 16 nntp posting host hardy u washington edu guvax acc georgetown edu writes enjoy trend towards classic style uniform disagree person wants return non gray road uniforms remembered one , reason uniforms , especially hats \( new road green 's caps cardinal navy blue road cap \) , marketing money made sales new merchandise kidding ask white sox bad , really john neuharth neuharth u washington edu
neuharth hardy u washington edu \( john neuharth \) subject jim lefebvre idiot article shelley organization university washington lines 20 nntp posting host hardy u washington edu rickc krill corp sgi com \( richard casares \) writes article 1993apr5 bsu ucs , leo bsuvc bsu edu writes wanted let everyone know lost little respect jim lefebvre seeing today 's cubs game cub fan yes , also wonder win manager never believed managers much winning saw much losing like mariners lot , heart belongs cubs imagine frustration saw cubs lefebvre ! john neuharth neuharth u washington edu
erics netcom com \( eric smith \) subject marlins win ! marlins win ! article netcom organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 19 genetic pitt edu \( david tate \) writes dwarner journalism indiana edu said caught tail end one espn anyone report \? \( look teal ! ! ! ! bleah ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! \) maybe 's , combination young faces peeking oversized aqua helmets screams little league every hmm , seems little leaguers n't badly , strawberry , e davis , rest dodgers yesterday \) eric smith erics netcom com erics infoserv com ci 70262 , 3610
erics netcom com \( eric smith \) subject harry candy article netcom distribution world , local organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 24 f67709907 violet ccit arizona edu \( greg franklin \) writes rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes i'm watching cubs rockies spring training game , thought 'd like know particular way harry caray butchers maldonado seems mal n dal like way butchers andres galarraga 's name comes like n't forget frequent references great sf giant star bobby bonds ! \? one really sorry hear cubs sent minors ! \) eric smith erics netcom com erics infoserv com ci 70262 , 3610
mss netcom com \( mark singer \) subject young catchers article netcom 768 organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 86 article blue cis pitt edu genetic pitt edu \( david tate \) writes mss netcom com \( mark singer \) said know , players age make much impact bigs , especially n't even played aaa ball yes irrelevant 're talking averages , lots information player particular base decisions really much information \? really \? n't lopez likely hit well \? hit well last year \( adjusting stats park league \) hit better \( absolute scale \) olson berryhill lot n't know tell percentage players reach exceed mle 's rookie season \? 're talking 1993 , know rushing really qualitative difference minors majors requires period adjustment \( n't believe \) , would n't rather waste lopez 's 22 year old good season 23 year old good season 24 year old excellent season \? sooner get acclimated , prime get use purpose , maybe offerman spent 1992 getting acclimated , dodgers team paid big price season perhaps reap benefits road really think would done competing pennant \? lopez hitting 588 17 ab cut spring training earn chance \? maybe full time job , least couple starts ab prove worth \? point 17 ab significant sample , rather n't done anything spring training cause even manager question whether minor league numbers real , send gets warmed stat head , i'm amazed put credence spring training notice got 10 \( ! \) hits , going tell n't make difference \? kid improve playing aaa , like keith mitchell \? wait minute missed something first , forget keith mitchell saying kid moves aa aaa improve would better making direct leap majors \? player well aa improve aaa , n't sign maybe n't belong bigs \? , keith mitchell recall \( stat books handy surprise ! \) jumped aa atlanta 1991 well returned minors , n't well career jeopardy fit point good mle 's aa moved right big club 's one step away traded moved baseball duh , far counter proposal really n't understand good lopez , experience , combination two think interpretation flattering organization well , 've cast lot certainly may understand better good lopez may experience neither one us runs baseball team beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
zappala pollux usc edu \( daniel zappala \) subject marlins first 3 rbi article pollux distribution world organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 18 nntp posting host pollux usc edu article umbc edu , umbc edu \( \) writes hey , watching game tv yesterday \( monday \) report came booth first 3 runs came three run single really happen \? , \? said leadoff man knocked exactly happened thanks walt weiss barely inside right field line corner , driving santiago conine first two rbis third came later weiss knocked daniel
fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu \( eric roush \) subject '93 picks \( one comment \) article news organization biochemistry lines 50 nntp posting host bruchner biochem duke edu article master cs rose hulman edu rickert nextwork rose hulman edu \( john h rickert \) writes article jfr2 ra msstate edu jfr2 ra msstate edu \( jackie f russell \) writes psg pitt edu \( paul galvanek \) writes national league west cincinnati houston 5 0 atlanta 8 0 argh ! obviously dead wrong since yankees 20 's 30 's team nicely setup years \( years come \) braves n't think star team able beat may appropriate comparison 1929 31 yankees finshed 2nd , 3rd 2nd 18 , 16 13 1 2 games first 1933 , also finished second \( though 7 , 7 3 games \) even great teams lose 's play season \( hand i'm still picking braves go way \) um , surely n't intend compare '93 reds 29 's yankees finishing 2nd team good 26 28 yankees , yankees aged peak years ruth gehrig could n't play every position simultaneously imo , given various ages braves reds season , braves closer peak , reds slightly passed peak also , 're going compare braves yankees , appropriate comparison '93 braves might yankees falling short two years row exciting world series , teams win series year , despite old fart team \( casey dave winfield \? \? \? \) eric roush fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu marxist , groucho sort grafitti , paris , 1968 tanstaafl ! \( although internet comes close \)
fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu \( eric roush \) subject quick way tell local beat writer dumb article news organization biochemistry lines 28 nntp posting host bruchner biochem duke edu article 1993apr06 locus com aardvark la locus com \( warren usui \) writes article apr 5 16 22 48 1993 pilot njin net gajarsky pilot njin net \( bob gajarsky hobokenite \) writes anyone writes dean palmer 2 homers pace , 'll 324 home runs ! shot , hand , juan gonzales probably shot 324 hr 's \) dodgers one inning play committed one error rate 'll 1 , 455 errors season ! well maybe i'm right time actually , might \? \) eric roush fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu marxist , groucho sort grafitti , paris , 1968 tanstaafl ! \( although internet comes close \)
rudy netcom com \( rudy wade \) subject 1 game closer article netcom organization home brave lines 18 god , hope n't put kind junk season ! article 002251w 5 axe acadiau ca 002251w axe acadiau ca \( jason walter works \) writes n yankees , one game closer l east pennant clobbered cleveland , 9 1 , fine pitching performance key , two homeruns tartabull \( first l baseball go season \) , three many home runs tartabull \? 1 , right , must thinking dean palmer juan gonzalez \( texas \) 2 homers run homer nokes n't pick boggs pools , tough break , couple hits , drove couple runs \( many n't know many follow , 1 4 go yanks , mattingly g glove , mvp , abbot cy young spare us , please !
lloyd uclink berkeley edu \( lloyd \) subject marlins win ! marlins win ! article 128 lloyd distribution world organization uc berkeley lines 14 nntp posting host soe berkeley edu \( look teal ! ! ! ! bleah ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! \) indeed , color teal team 's uniforms indication future , marlins dire trouble ! refer san jose sharks proof hope marlins sometime member rene fan club oakland coliseum , deep respect guy 's gem , course , walt weiss gives franchise class yeah whoever designed uniforms guilty style imagination ! lloyd r , uc berkeley internet lloyd uclink berkeley edu vox \( 510 \) 848 9760 643 never underestimate bandwidth 747 carrying ton cd roms
tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) subject young catchers article cs 1993apr6 organization cornell univ cs dept , ithaca ny 14853 lines 17 article netcom com mss netcom com \( mark singer \) writes speculation \( others \) lopez produce better two proven veterans nothing speculation , matter well founded speculation two proven veterans produce better lopez also speculation make difference whether speculation well founded obviously , braves believe win catching , agree change minds , 'll call lopez though good point one speculation safer , reversed cheers , valentine
ez027993 dale ucdavis edu \( gary huckabay \) subject call votes mvp cy please vote ! article ucdavis distribution na organization harold brooks hot sour soup club , ltd lines 79 regular season 1992 93 davis baseball league come end help us next year 's league , would appreciate would take couple minutes vote league mvp cy winners awards , players' standings , inflate salaries next year 's league please vote 5 category , order example 1 barry bonds 2 frank thomas 3 4 5 lips lundy please vote pitchers mvp voting league team league gets one candidate mvp , one cy defensive position listed applicable , along abbreviation performance \( e excellent , v good , average , p poor , b poor \) thanks please reply april 10 record season 144 games long thanks help mvp candidates name g ab h 2b 3b hr r rbi bb k sb cs ba obp slg def griffey 124 338 99 27 0 16 44 64 39 50 0 0 16 293 362 515 8 p 139 562 176 55 3 14 85 87 44 77 14 5 6 313 359 496 5 sandberg 137 559 163 35 6 20 100 102 64 67 4 1 2 292 360 483 4 v ventura 144 562 161 32 0 9 83 59 80 61 0 1 3 286 374 391 5 e mcgriff 148 533 150 25 1 33 89 98 102 132 0 3 20 281 398 518 3 p mcgwire 138 487 134 31 1 34 108 104 128 100 0 3 38 275 425 552 3 e 127 515 159 23 8 5 85 34 70 67 54 11 1 309 389 414 4 p dykstra 144 582 157 27 1 3 94 60 65 67 89 20 3 270 339 335 8 butler 137 534 158 13 13 1 82 50 83 69 13 19 0 296 386 375 8 b deer 119 425 103 26 1 33 66 75 44 141 1 3 2 242 311 541 9 v bonds 145 465 143 39 4 33 128 101 187 62 23 5 68 308 502 622 7 e hrbek 129 423 112 21 0 12 62 52 80 77 1 0 2 265 380 400 3 p 135 543 121 17 1 38 59 85 28 146 0 0 2 223 259 468 8 b players missed time due injuries , others sat end avoid possibility injury better players list , team gets one one candidate players played 144 games due traded teams games left time span , pitchers name era g w l ip h bb k hr gs cg sho wp 3 01 30 15 8 0 209 1 173 76 124 12 30 2 0 2 dibble 0 80 37 0 2 25 33 2 21 8 46 1 0 0 0 0 3 40 26 13 7 0 177 1 175 56 133 12 26 5 1 5 mussina 2 92 29 15 7 0 206 2 167 46 119 15 29 3 1 2 3 24 28 14 9 0 194 1 172 53 127 13 28 4 1 1 2 93 27 16 7 0 196 2 144 64 166 20 26 8 3 1 smoltz 3 62 28 11 11 0 186 1 177 66 158 9 28 6 1 7 cone 3 46 28 14 7 0 197 2 152 103 193 10 28 7 1 5 2 79 29 13 10 0 206 2 166 55 131 16 29 4 0 2 3 28 25 12 8 0 172 2 168 36 64 8 25 4 2 1 clemens 2 94 31 16 11 0 223 1 198 71 178 13 31 17 ! 2 1 tomlin 2 48 28 12 5 0 196 0 172 42 97 8 27 1 0 2 farr 0 81 38 4 1 17 55 1 28 25 38 1 0 0 0 0 curt schilling threw perfect game year , ken hill threw hitter rob dibble pitched 32 scoreless innings start year , choke last two games cost perot 's giant sucking sounds playoff spot want stats players , available request please take time reply thanks gary huckabay kevin kerr al mid 90 's ! living argument 's anything love huge existence parallel sig , 's someone quoting 100 lines add universes 3 4 new ones consecutive posts , ''' \( \) ooo \( \) ooo david mein , es ist ist
fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu \( eric roush \) subject young catchers article news organization biochemistry lines 139 nntp posting host bruchner biochem duke edu since one responsible divergent threads approx 40 posts \( going back braves could better injury happens \) , may well inject little fuel flame ! 1 \) back beginning spring training , though lopez would make squad easily olson still recovering late season injury \( knee , believe \) , questions whether would able play june berryhill looking forward , believe lopez hit field position last season , braves defensive catcher prospect , brian braves offensive catcher prospect besides , olson berryhill could n't hit way wet cardboard box , n't walk enough useful olson recovered quickly , berryhill recovered , braves went two still say one two start season , would n't gotten job back 2 \) certain logic keeping olson berryhill around , ml catchers short supply suffer wear tear teams without one average ml catcher \( california seattle come mind \) certainly , trying move olson berryhill waivers would unlikely work plus , 'd eat salary , n't huge , n't either \( think olson 's 800 , 000 , berryhill 450 , 000 , 's recall \) 3 \) yes , think arbitration eligibility may role play also , 5 6 2 year players n't eligible arbitration \? 1 6 roster longest eligible \? course , system may change , extent change yet known business standpoint , may make sense keep lopez june first time olson berryhill go dl 4 \) still disappointed lopez n't team still prefer think fan comes braves , truth 'd rather see best team field , , imo , includes lopez course , today play cubs hopefully , wo n't need \) schuerholz cox conversation , imagine went like \( remember , 've gm 's \) \( following meant read humor impaired \) cox ok , 've sent jones fielding could little smoother besides , blauser hit ok fielding better used schuerholz well , 'll send nieves deion wo n't sign baseball contract ca n't count october , keep nixon around defense besides , gorman 's ready give billy hatcher yet hatcher 's gone deion signs , move nixon frankie rodriguez ought give us pitching depth 1995 cox yep , 'll nice bad deion wo n't sign ok , 'll look nieves justice starts berry berry er , back problems , klesko \? schuerholz well , 've still got fork another 1 5 mil bream keep klesko , either lose money keep dangling sid front dal maxwell , somehow n't seem gm first jeffries jose , whiten clark ! gets rid brian jordan , 'd believe whitey herzog switched bodies winter meetings ! cox ok , keep trying bream , 'll wait til trading deadline hunter klesko platoon maybe get extra bats wait try california snow starts slowly , maybe bite sid n't work , perhaps sid 's knees could persuaded act 's always 15 day dl ! mwa ha ha ha ha ! schuerholz \? cox well , 's much better lemke maybe starts richmond , 'll start walking besides , 's going arbitration eligible , better stretch actually get value makes big bucks schuerholz , let 's see leaves lopez cox ! gotta keep lopez ! sure , n't think olson would recover quickly maybe talk caminiti running \? schuerholz nope , lopez gotta go know 'll get 3 million arbitration may well put one extra year besides , olson 's shown stuff little bit , ca n't trade besides , berryhill 's left handed hitter know rare \? cox n't mean left handed \? pretty common , ask mean , made pat borders look good world series pat borders ! ! ! schuerholz hey , 're one would n't write lopez lineup cox well , 're one went got jeff reardon ! besides , thought lopez would n't used pitching staff 's stuff got time spring looked pretty good come , surely need keep one stiff behind plate \? schuerholz yeah , stiff \? whichever one keep hurt may cox ok , ok , made point keep surely one dl june latest call lopez , win 110 games ! pennant ! world series ! 'll john mcgraw ! casey ! earl weaver ! oh , laughed toronto , ever deal george bell \? 'll finally get reward ! mwa ha ha ha ! schuerholz easy , bobby taking happy pills left around chuck tanner \? 'd ever hire guy anyhow \? cox n't ask ask ted eric roush fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu marxist , groucho sort grafitti , paris , 1968 tanstaafl ! \( although internet comes close \)
king cogsci ucsd edu \( jonathan king \) subject binaca blast deep drive derby \( bbddd \) returns article network qi distribution na organization university california , san diego lines 40 nntp posting host cogsci ucsd edu vincent gray writes king cogsci ucsd edu \( jonathan king \) writes even less publicized , however , 300 , 000 n't come padres , un named source , money n't go blue jays toronto , money diverted london bank account owned shadowy character named vincent gray lucky account number must rejected ! \) oh , come everybody net heard plausible 're fooling anybody soon , gray palmer sent word ottawa canada achieved absolute superiority united states field research , controlled acker cook pitch alike contest binaca blast research institute prime minister smiled hope think would inadvertantly give pleasure mulroney really ruins day note quick vince make inference post claimed mulroney smiling news sure looks like guilty knowledge realizing importance work , john palmer concluded might able pool resources e , 300 grand stars year \? anyone hope combat brad 's record start last year \? early money tom tom bolton , contributed clutch first appearance expect lots strong contenders year , many right san diego jking
msilverm nyx cs du edu \( mike silverman \) subject cubs behind marlins \? \? article 1993apr6 organization university denver , dept math comp sci lines 74 've noticed become fashionable lately rsb predict finish ahead cubs \? first base grace vs could second coming cecil fielder \? doubt performs height expectations , even , otherwise , edge cubs second base sandberg vs contest sandberg back may 1 edge cubs big edge shortstop vizcaino vs weiss vizcaino excellent defensively , automatic bat weiss n't much better stick even third base dave magadan vs magadan higher obp better hitter power better defensively \( think \) edge florida catcher santiago vs wilkins wilkins ok , santiago better edge marlins left field conine vs maldonado wow ! 4 4 yesterday know conine potential watched play omaha last couple years actually proves , give maldonado edge , however , like 1b , position florida might even better player huge year center scott pose vs wilson may edge may , even wilson hopefully cubs use may save wilson pinch running like may n't ken griffey jr , hit 275 15 homers plays full time right felix vs sosa felix jose occasional power bad obp sosa , sosa also speed good glove edge cubs starters \? armstrong \? hammond \? lot fifth starters cubs wo n't remind anyone brave staff , morgan castillo guzman average ok better edge cubs middle relief even cubs decent , marlins carpenter decent , closer healthy harvey big edge marlins meyers decent , harvey course , cubs may games save look 30 saves , 5 blown meyers , 25 saves , 3 blown \( better era \) harvey edge florida overall , edge chicago neither teams threaten win anything , course e msilverm nyx cs du edu go cubs ! ! ! one likes believe freedom baseball geddy lee
ingres com \( bruce \) subject dodgers move ny la \? article pony 1993apr6 organization ingres corporation , subsidiary ask group , inc lines 6 article 1993apr5 ncar ucar edu music scd ucar edu \( tom parker \) writes bet buddy dodgers moved ny la anyone know year moved \? first year la 1958
ingres com \( bruce \) subject best record ever baseball article pony 1993apr6 distribution usa organization ingres corporation , subsidiary ask group , inc lines 5 article jhunix hcf jhu edu admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu \( steve c liu \) writes teams , believe cubs best record ever baseball sometime way far back 110 something think 1954 cleveland indians 111
luigi sgi com \( randy palermo \) subject 1993 predictions article odin organization silicon graphics , inc , mountain view , ca lines 33 nntp posting host bullpen csd sgi com article 1993apr6 infonode ingr com kenney tribe b17d ingr com writes thought 'd post predicted standings since find posted others interesting sorry opening day completed first pitch \) nl west 2 best teams baseball division 1 atlanta braves awesome starters , offense could concern 2 cincinnati reds would surprise 3 houston astros team signs uribe wo n't contend closer 4 2 4 san diego padres plantier could sheffield 1993 5 los angeles dodgers better pitching giants 6 san francisco giants rockies stink 7 colorado rockies become seattle mariners nl nlcs montreal atlanta \( braves fans , yes i'm probably contradicting said nl west comment \) alcs new york minnesota world series new york montreal hating yankees fashionable nl mvp barry bonds , maybe mcgriff guarantee bonds wins mvp giants finish higher 6th luigi randy palermo luigi csd sgi com fax \( 415 \) 961 6502 silicon graphics computer systems , 2011 n shoreline blvd mt view , ca 94039 play , go jail 's law
fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu \( eric roush \) subject reds without sleeves \( new uniforms \) article news organization biochemistry lines 13 nntp posting host bruchner biochem duke edu person thinks reds uniforms ugly \? yet another reason wo n't win nl west ! \) eric roush fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu marxist , groucho sort grafitti , paris , 1968 tanstaafl ! \( although internet comes close \)
po cwru edu \( sam \) subject joe robbie stadium baseball article po 114 organization case western reserve university lines 27 nntp posting host student cwru edu article 1993apr6 oswego oswego edu iacs3650 oswego edu \( kevin mundstock \) writes iacs3650 oswego edu \( kevin mundstock \) subject joe robbie stadium baseball date 6 apr 93 02 50 27 gmt anyone notice words baseball printed picture joe robbie stadium opening day season preview section usa today \? reason given \? would assume words \( saw picture \) indicated seats available baseball games look picture diamond stadium , relation areas marked baseball , seats look terrible watching baseball , happen reach post season , would imagine would consider opening seats , surely worry future sam po cwru edu champion , people see 'd like loser , see actually , treat scorn secure initial pleasure , fermented grain decidedly time
luriem alleg edu liberalizer \( michael lurie \) subject best lifetime record baseball history article alleg 1993apr6 2758 organization allegheny college lines 19 article 1993apr6 156 com aj com writes speaking marlins winning opener based lifetime percentage games , second best record baseball history \( soon best record \) \? guess would forced say yankees hand blue jays might hmmmmm tony blue jays \? way hell , yankees probably remember , yankees best record team 80 's , probably take 20 's 60 's well
luriem alleg edu liberalizer \( michael lurie \) subject 1 game closer article alleg 1993apr6 organization allegheny college lines 29 article 002251w 5 axe acadiau ca 002251w axe acadiau ca \( jason walter works \) writes n yankees , one game closer l east pennant clobbered cleveland , 9 1 , fine pitching performance key , two homeruns tartabull \( first l baseball go season \) , three run homer nokes n't pick boggs pools , tough break , couple hits , drove couple runs \( many follow \) yanks beat coming team youngsters indians yankees need win 95 games get division go yanks , mattingly g glove , mvp , abbot cy young jason jason , going yankee game wed night cleveland stadium happy cleveland bad team lost coming team , sad excuse better average abbot win cy ! ! ! ! ! ! melido perez bold prediction come , well last place end season mike lurie speaks , world listens
luriem alleg edu liberalizer \( michael lurie \) subject yankee article alleg 1993apr6 organization allegheny college lines 14 realize yankees paying matt nokes 2 , 500 , 000 dollars year ! ! ! ! maas gets 125 , 000 way , yankees going win yankees best way , jt snow , ex yankee , rookie year
luriem alleg edu liberalizer \( michael lurie \) subject joe robbie stadium baseball article alleg 1993apr6 organization allegheny college lines 10 article 1993apr6 oswego oswego edu iacs3650 oswego edu \( kevin mundstock \) writes anyone notice words baseball printed picture joe robbie stadium opening day season preview section usa today \? reason given \? yes , answer simple create better feeling park , seats folded back baseball games saw words
rickert nextwork rose hulman edu \( john h rickert \) subject mile high runs article master reply rickert nextwork rose hulman edu \( john h rickert \) organization computer science department rose hulman lines 35 nntp posting host g215a 1 nextwork rose hulman edu many runs scored denver \? n't know idea gotten looking runs scored mile high stadium last years bears tenure american association 's total runs scored per game games , league games ratio found ratios hr year rpg lea ratio lea ratio 1992 10 22 9 10 1 12 1 65 1 58 1 04 1991 9 53 8 87 1 07 1 41 1 26 1 12 1990 10 71 8 72 1 23 1 49 1 24 1 20 1989 9 07 8 34 1 09 1 27 1 11 1 14 1988 9 90 8 37 1 18 1 29 1 08 1 19 1987 12 55 10 70 1 17 2 39 1 92 1 24 1986 9 45 9 33 1 01 1 35 1 38 98 1985 9 50 8 54 1 11 1 53 1 34 1 14 1984 9 99 9 10 1 10 1 55 1 59 97 1983 10 60 9 99 1 06 2 03 1 74 1 17 1982 11 29 10 35 1 09 2 24 1 91 1 17 1981 10 29 9 25 1 11 1 43 1 49 96 1980 10 59 9 43 1 12 1 63 1 46 1 12 13 1 11 1444 13 1 11 seems pretty clear denver large effect runs scored \( 'll stick prediction last year 'll one top 3 nl year \) fairly large effect homeruns though apparently large atlanta , wrigley , cincinnati san diego still ought pretty decent home run park john rickert rickert nextwork rose hulman edu
rickert nextwork rose hulman edu \( john h rickert \) subject '93 picks \( one comment \) article master reply rickert nextwork rose hulman edu \( john h rickert \) organization computer science department rose hulman lines 47 nntp posting host g215a 1 nextwork rose hulman edu article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu \( eric roush \) writes article master cs rose hulman edu rickert nextwork rose hulman edu \( john h rickert \) writes article jfr2 ra msstate edu jfr2 ra msstate edu \( jackie f russell \) writes psg pitt edu \( paul galvanek \) writes national league west cincinnati houston 5 0 atlanta 8 0 argh ! obviously dead wrong since yankees 20 's 30 's team nicely setup years \( years come \) braves n't think star team able may appropriate comparison 1929 31 yankees finshed 2nd , 3rd 2nd 18 , 16 13 1 2 games first 1933 , also finished second \( though 7 , 7 3 games \) even great teams lose 's play season \( hand i'm still picking braves go way \) um , surely n't intend compare '93 reds 29 's yankees finishing 2nd team good 26 28 yankees , yankees aged peak years ruth gehrig could n't play every position simultaneously imo , given various ages braves reds season , braves closer peak , reds slightly passed peak also , 're going compare braves yankees , appropriate comparison '93 braves might yankees falling short two years row exciting world series , teams win series year , despite old fart team \( casey dave winfield \? \? \? \) perhaps responding yankees 20 's 30 's part comment teams thing' lost , 's probably unreasonable someone pick another team \( \) john rickert rickert nextwork rose hulman edu go brewers !
thf2 kimbark uchicago edu \( ted frank \) subject marlins win ! marlins win ! article midway 1993apr6 reply thf2 midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 18 article lloyd 128 32 250 77 lloyd uclink berkeley edu \( lloyd \) writes \( look teal ! ! ! ! bleah ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! \) indeed , color teal team 's uniforms indication future , marlins dire trouble ! refer san jose sharks proof hope marlins sometime member rene fan club oakland coliseum , deep respect guy 's gem , course , walt weiss gives franchise class yeah whoever designed uniforms guilty style imagination ! maybe i'm child 80 's , really liked uniforms helmets shine nicely sun 's enough make fan ted frank however teel mentioned though thf2 kimbark uchicago edu advice legally sound , follow u c law school probably wind jail standard disclaimers james donald , misc legal
subject mark whiten rsmith strobe atc olivetti com \( russ smith \) lines 13 vacation last week n't see news could somebody fill st louis ended mark whiten trade \? give arocha , allen watson , dmitri young , dal make decent deal \? russ smith n't know anything x 's , know george assistant coach
dougb comm mot com \( doug bank \) subject info needed cleveland tickets reply dougb ecs comm mot com organization motorola land mobile products sector distribution usa nntp posting host 145 1 146 35 lines 17 article 1993apr1 leland stanford edu , bohnert leland stanford edu \( matthew bohnert \) writes i'm going cleveland thursday , april 15 sunday , april 18 anybody know tribe town dates , , 're playing tickets available \? tribe town april 16 19th always tickets available ! \( though playing toronto , many toronto fans make trip cleveland easier get tickets cleveland toronto either way , seriously doubt sell end season \) doug bank private systems division dougb ecs comm mot com motorola communications sector dougb nwu edu schaumburg , illinois dougb casbah acns nwu edu 708 576 8207
math nwu edu \( christopher l cox \) subject yogi isms article news 1993apr6 1009 organization dept math , northwestern univ lines 13 nntp posting host math nwu edu 's one remember \( sort \) yogi 's asleep hotel room late night gets call someone answers phone person end asks woke yogi yogi answered , , phone kevin one favorites came back seventies two streakers game yogi , across field later someone n't present asked yogi men women replied , could n't tell , bags heads
dtate pitt edu \( david tate \) subject young catchers article blue organization department industrial engineering lines 81 mss netcom com \( mark singer \) said article blue cis pitt edu genetic pitt edu \( david tate \) writes mss netcom com \( mark singer \) said know , players age make much impact bigs , especially n't even played aaa ball yes irrelevant 're talking averages , lots information player particular base decisions really much information \? really \? n't personally , clay posted yes , unfortunately , shows lopez n't good example nieves would , since last year numbers line previous years \( n't access \) point remains , though knowing guy 's minor league history good knowing major league history , know read n't lopez likely hit well \? hit well last year \( adjusting stats park league \) hit better \( absolute scale \) olson berryhill lot n't know tell percentage players reach exceed mle 's rookie season \? 're talking 1993 , know mle projection , 's equivalence 's well hit last year , major league terms rating , essence , already reached would guess \( bob \? clay \? \) essentially half players surpass previous rookie seasons maybe half , since players young improving purpose , maybe offerman spent 1992 getting acclimated , dodgers team paid big price season \? offerman may difference 4th 5th place last place , perhaps reap benefits road really think would done competing pennant \? sure n't anyone better suppose might farm system acquire jay bell spike owen somebody really contention point 17 ab significant sample , rather n't done anything spring training cause even manager question whether minor league numbers real , send gets warmed stat head , i'm amazed put credence spring training 'd read wrote , 'd less amazed nowhere claim put credence spring training quite contrary said lopez n't done anything even bozos put credence spring training could interpret failure think spring training numbers meaningless n't mean bobby cox 's case ruling one possible explanation sending lopez kid improve playing aaa , like keith mitchell \? wait minute missed something keith mitchell well aa , aaa , majors season , , poorly year aaa david tate \( know closes posing opens something understands e e \( pocket glove deeper pete rose 's \) dy \) cummings nobody , even tim raines , soft hands
g r price cm cf ac uk \( thats fact \) subject sax organization university wales college cardiff , cardiff , wales , uk lines 5 news steve 's status since lost starting job would appreciated thanks gwyn
drw3l delmarva evsc virginia edu \( david robert walker \) subject young catchers organization university virginia lines 70 discussion mark singer david tate , valentine weighing side dave various times opinion , fwiw , mark , age n't matter ability would rather rookie great minor league numbers veteran proven average best n't care 15 plays better , want sandy alomar decent minor league numbers , grossly inflated pcl general las vegas particular projected average major league hitter \( good catcher , 'll admit \) santiago 's numbers would probably come sandy 's , n't league data mid 80s check said , agree sending lopez richmond , least start season box shows , one minor league season hit well two hit , poorly want see 92 lopez real olson berryhill complete catchers , especially nl catchers , essentially average hitters , equivalent averages around 220 hit well prior levels , would say belongs braves reasonable chance lopez last year much fluke alomar 90 santiago 87 one year level , age , n't satisfy standards evidence javier lopez 1971 1990 428 101 10 1 9 5 0 1 179 33 236 245 327 1991 389 84 8 1 9 14 7 2 175 29 216 243 311 1992 grn 445 135 22 2 14 22 7 2 271 71 303 336 456 1992 atl 16 6 2 0 0 0 0 0 306 3 375 375 500 maj 16 6 2 0 0 0 0 0 306 3 375 375 500 min 1262 320 40 4 32 41 14 5 213 133 254 277 368 tot 326 42 4 32 41 14 5 214 136 255 278 369 maj 650 244 81 0 0 0 0 0 min 630 160 20 2 16 20 7 2 tot 630 161 21 2 16 20 7 2 similar note , n't understand people supportive neon deion granted , thought behavior last year completely bush last year first time ever got 300 ab one place , lines hard read combined 720 ops minor league play speed valuable ops alone indicates still young age \( 24 \) , monster year 868 ops total , major minor , eqa 249 major league average , average cf \( 240 nl last year \) shown least potential going , would make one 15 best hitters league two full seasons reaching prime season 27 considered legitimate prospect , simple side show attraction deion sanders 1968 1988 fla 21 8 2 0 0 1 1 0 325 4 381 409 476 1988 int 20 3 1 0 0 1 1 1 086 0 150 190 200 1989 eas 123 35 1 2 2 9 15 4 257 19 285 333 374 1989 nyy 47 11 1 0 2 3 1 0 222 6 234 280 383 1989 int 263 70 11 4 6 18 15 6 246 37 266 313 407 1990 nyy 133 21 2 2 3 13 8 2 161 9 158 233 271 1990 int 85 26 7 1 1 14 8 1 312 18 306 404 447 1991 atl 110 20 2 1 4 12 10 3 201 12 182 262 327 1991 129 30 5 2 4 7 11 3 230 17 233 272 395 1992 atl 306 92 10 12 11 22 24 9 295 60 301 348 520 maj 596 144 15 15 20 50 43 14 245 87 242 300 418 min 641 172 27 9 13 50 51 15 252 96 268 321 399 tot 316 42 24 33 100 94 29 249 182 255 311 408 maj 600 145 15 15 20 50 43 14 min 603 162 25 8 12 47 48 14 tot 601 154 20 12 16 49 46 14 clay
mcmath csb1 nlm nih gov \( chuck chuck bo buck mcmath \) subject giants' gm quinn genius ! organization ross perot ear admiration society lines 37 article apple apple com , chuq apple com \( chuq von rospach \) wrote mcmath csb1 nlm nih gov \( chuck chuck bo buck mcmath \) writes giants protected mike benjamin \( career average 160 \) pitcher pat , surprised looks bay area benjamin 's stats 333 364 571 , 42 ab , 14 h , 4 doubles , 2 's even sent aaa 's even better , eh \? course , protected list done old regime , new , rosen 's baby , quinn 's 'll tell let 's look end season , , say three years , see genius one braindead decisions , imho even benjamin improve markedly past \( hitting better \) 's never going utility backup might turn top flight arm another year think next time post something like , obviously need make sarcasm bit obvious chuck chuck mcmath mcmath csb1 nlm nih gov msd , inc national library medicine national institutes health bethesda , md noose good noose hey batter , hey batter , hey batter , swing anon opinion influenced cosmic radiation
cbnewse cb att com \( richard g barry \) subject reds without sleeves \( new uniforms \) article cbnewse 1993apr6 organization lines 21 article 1993apr6 adobe com , snichols adobe com \( sherri nichols \) writes article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu \( eric roush \) writes person thinks reds uniforms ugly \? yet another reason wo n't win nl west ! \) uniforms really deciding factor pennant races , '79 pirates would never anything ugliest uniforms 've ever seen , particular yellow set sherri nichols snichols adobe com vote goes \( '75 \? \) indians red uniforms powell said felt like big red blood clot rich barry barry ihlpe att com
iacs3650 oswego edu \( kevin mundstock \) subject yogi isms reply iacs3650 oswego oswego edu \( kevin mundstock \) organization instructional computing center , suny oswego , oswego , ny lines 14 article 1993apr2 bsu ucs 00mbstultz leo bsuvc bsu edu writes 's interesting quote bill veek get field josh \( gibson \) , minimum , two yogi speaking yogi , anybody know good yogi isms \? mike curious george 's one remember \( sort \) yogi 's asleep hotel room late night gets call someone answers phone person end asks woke yogi yogi answered , , phone kevin
iacs3650 oswego edu \( kevin mundstock \) subject predictions 1993 reply iacs3650 oswego oswego edu \( kevin mundstock \) organization instructional computing center , suny oswego , oswego , ny lines 62 since everyone else seems running wild predictions , 've decided add fuel fire might seem bit normal , \( albeit , small \) surprises american league east w l gb 1 \) new york yankees 93 69 2 \) baltimore orioles 90 72 3 3 \) toronto blue jays 86 76 7 4 \) cleveland indians 84 78 9 5 \) boston red sox 77 85 16 6 \) milwaukee brewers 74 88 19 7 \) detroit tigers 73 89 20 american league west w l gb 1 \) minnesota twins 94 68 2 \) kansas city royals 92 70 2 3 \) texas rangers 85 77 9 4 \) chicago white sox 77 85 17 5 \) oakland athletics 74 88 20 6 \) seattle mariners 70 92 24 7 \) california angels 65 97 29 al mvp kirby puckett al cy young kevin al rookie year tim salmon al manager year buck showalter al comeback player year ozzie national league east w l gb 1 \) st louis cardinals 91 71 2 \) philadelphia phillies 89 73 2 3 \) montreal expos 88 74 3 4 \) new york mets 84 78 7 5 \) chicago cubs 79 83 12 6 \) pittsburgh pirates 73 89 18 7 \) florida marlins 54 108 37 national league west w l gb 1 \) atlanta braves 96 66 2 \) cincinnati reds 94 68 2 3 \) houston astros 89 73 7 4 \) los angeles dodgers 82 80 14 5 \) san francisco giants 81 81 15 6 \) san diego padres 75 87 21 7 \) colorado rockies 59 103 37 nl mvp barry larkin nl cy young john smoltz nl rookie year wil nl manager year joe torre nl comeback player year eric davis nl champions st louis cardinals al champions minnesota twins world champions st louis cardinals st louis picks heart says brain says , win division , lose braves nlcs , braves win series minnesota , 'll stick cards way kevin
iacs3650 oswego edu \( kevin mundstock \) subject joe robbie stadium baseball reply iacs3650 oswego oswego edu \( kevin mundstock \) organization instructional computing center , suny oswego , oswego , ny lines 16 anyone notice words baseball printed picture joe robbie stadium opening day season preview section usa today \? reason given \? also , noticed something looking nolan ryan timeline preview 8 22 89 , rickey henderson became nolan 's 6 11 90 pitched 6th hitter oakland believe last game made rickey henderson 5 1 91 , nolan pitched 7th hitter day certain someone stole base , seems nolan lot publicity rickey 's expense imo , rickey deserves , seems net agrees 've seen lately great players , imo , nolan rickey , playing importantly , attitude thoughts kevin
snichols adobe com \( sherri nichols \) subject young catchers organization adobe systems incorporated lines 38 article blue cis pitt edu genetic pitt edu \( david tate \) writes rushing really qualitative difference minors majors requires period adjustment \( n't believe \) , would n't rather waste lopez 's 22 year old good season 23 year old good season 24 year old excellent season \? sooner get acclimated , prime get use anybody name player majors \( let 's , argument 's sake , define rushed brought majors cup coffee prior age 22 younger , performing expectations \) , whose career damaged rushing \? i'm serious tend agree david bringing player sooner better , 'd like look players theory n't work , 'd prefer players within last 10 years , look minor league stats \( 's important distinguish players legitimately careers minor league numbers would projected , opposed players hyped failed , actually careers line minor league numbers \) let 's kick example player rushed , although n't seem damage career jay bell given 135 pas major leagues age 21 , performed well would expect aaa numbers season got 236 pas next year age 22 , still however , next year , age 24 , performance improved , everyday shortstop job , ever since 's really hard see would better staying minor league \( performed quite well aaa \) time , rather rushed cleveland might better , suppose , might less likely give yes , bring player early , 's likely going struggle delay time stops struggling , starts performing expectations \? sherri nichols snichols adobe com
rudy netcom com \( rudy wade \) subject cubs game april 6th article netcom igd organization home brave lines 7 article 1993apr6 oucsace cs ohiou edu oucsace cs ohiou edu \( j michael clark \) writes otis lined single left two outs breaking hitter cubs win 1 0 1 hitter jose guzman 's might takes beat braves year look smoltz 's pitching line 6 hits , 2 walks , 1 er , 7 loss
bone wilbur stanford edu \( doug bone \) subject players rushed majors article wilbur 24 lines 34 snichols adobe com \( sherri nichols \) writes anybody name player majors \( let 's , argument 's sake , define rushed brought majors cup coffee prior age 22 younger , performing expectations \) , whose career damaged rushing \? tend agree players hurt early play big leagues braves organization fertile ground test hypothesis , little talent roster time steve avery , example , rushed majors , poorly initial campaign subsequent pitching affected 5 era rookie year bill james pointed relatively unusual struggle rebound bob horner also rushed majors \( arizona state directly \) good numbers immediately certain ages people like pete smith , craig , derek lilliquist braves pitching staffs bad came might rushed lilliquist smith struggled , n't hurt ps dl may seem recall cm pitching well initially , though n't stats handy douglas bone internet bone luciano stanford edu standard disclaimers bitnet bone luciano stanford edu stanford apply uucp ucbvax ! luciano ! sierra stanford edu ! bone
js1 isis msstate edu \( jiann ming su \) subject rickey henderson nntp posting host isis msstate edu organization mississippi state university distribution usa lines 21 article appserv eng sun com str eng sun com \( todd \) writes stay school lot learn learn \? know 3 million dollars lot money know rickey henderson n't career baseball know n't baseball , would n't making near money n't understand athlete , plays sport living millions dollars , say paid enough nobody sign asking price , one hurting 's still win without remeber , many athletes nothing athletic ability nothing getting paid much hard working citizens , complaining enough pay n't problem making millions problem say n't paid enough , already get 3 million also , numbers get worse
zappala pollux usc edu \( daniel zappala \) subject angels win ! article pollux distribution world organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 6 nntp posting host pollux usc edu angels home opener brewers today 33 , 000 anaheim stadium , 3 1 3 hitter mark langston j snow gary hit home runs angels daniel
lsu edu \( \) subject young catchers news software vax vms vnews 1 3 4 reply lsu edu organization lsu news nntp posting host nntpd 681 lsu edu lines 47 mss netcom com \( mark singer \) said catchers need solid defensively players help clubs bigs arguments lopez braves year braves two catchers demonstrated solid abilities call games , work pitchers , throw runners crux argument \( least \) sdcn non sdcn camps seem agree fact catcher 's defense basically present talk important calling game , framing pitches , blocking balls dirt little way tell exactly various catcher 's rank defense looking lopez specifically reason suspect bad defensive catcher fact braves \( media \) labeled bad defensive catcher \? far tell n't particular problem mechanics \( \) might little rough around edges blocking ball , framing pitch get good call needs clear playing practice time ca n't see aaa better reps majors ! 're left calling game aspect olsen berryhill always given credit calling good games helping staff reputation given almost veteran catchers catching aaa going help lopez learn major league pitching staff \? way catcher going learn tom glavine 's pitches catch tom glavine similarly , would n't pitcher 's claimed prefer pitching olsen pitching lopez used pitching olsen given time say comfortable lopez , since lopez ca n't learn handle major league pitcher 's 's aaa since n't glaring problem mechanics , going learn aaa ca n't learn well majors \? dave dave bonar lsu edu
rickert nextwork rose hulman edu \( john h rickert \) subject '93 picks \( one comment \) organization computer science department rose hulman lines 53 distribution na reply rickert nextwork rose hulman edu \( john h rickert \) nntp posting host g215a 1 nextwork rose hulman edu article jfr2 ra msstate edu jfr2 ra msstate edu \( jackie f russell \) writes psg pitt edu \( paul galvanek \) writes since well last year , 's another shot picking winners losers 'll skip commentary picked finish due lack time flame wars 8 \) kansas city 25 0 think kc much better shot top division bottom one word \( cone \) help things tremendously think way mark another word \( offense \) makes pick last \( well , 's also policy never picking buck team last \) florida 12 0 chicago 20 0 dont know expansion team ever finished last think year might first ever happened cubs worse 1961 angels 1 2 game 7th athletics expansion senators finished tied last 1962 colt 45 's finshed 8th ahead cubs \( mets last \) 1969 royals finshed 4th ahead white sox \( pilots last \) 1977 mariners finished 6th ahead athletics \( last \) apparently expansion team poor 's chicago team around thing' national league west cincinnati houston 5 0 atlanta 8 0 argh ! obviously dead wrong since yankees 20 's 30 's team nicely setup years \( years come \) braves n't think star team able beat may appropriate comparison 1929 31 yankees finshed 2nd , 3rd 2nd 18 , 16 13 1 2 games first 1933 , also finished second \( though 7 , 7 3 games \) even great teams lose 's play season \( hand i'm still picking braves go way \) john rickert rickert nextwork rose hulman predictions '93 marlins 70 wins , rockies 50 wins rockies fans claim offense adequate
rickc krill corp sgi com \( richard casares \) subject jim lefebvre idiot nntp posting host krill corp sgi com organization silicon graphics , inc lines 16 article 1993apr5 bsu ucs , leo bsuvc bsu edu writes wanted let everyone know lost little respect jim lefebvre seeing today 's cubs game cub fan think 's bad , wait tries leadoff spot yes , also wonder win manager never believed managers much winning saw much losing rick
rickc krill corp sgi com \( richard casares \) subject jim lefebvre idiot nntp posting host krill corp sgi com organization silicon graphics , inc lines 32 article news cso uiuc edu , uxa cso uiuc edu \( \) writes totally agree point made jose looked like single hitter swings 3 1 count maddux pitching teams run , n't touched ball day also think much made lefty righty thing watching cubs games get feeling steve stone knows lot cubs harry said best stated another terrible vizcaino bat ca n't wait til sandberg returns ! tell , steve stone like prophet must making ton booth ca n't understand 's actually back game day called sosa 's homerun sox claimed game would going extra innings score 8 3 5th yesterday notices sosa 's ahead count maddux says , fastball situation sosa looking also spot maddux throws straight change sure enough sosa gets ahead pops infield stoney cubs manager ! rick
subject young catchers rsmith strobe atc olivetti com \( russ smith \) organization olivetti atc cupertino ca , usa lines 27 article 768 netcom com mss netcom com \( mark singer \) writes , keith mitchell recall \( stat books handy surprise ! \) jumped aa atlanta 1991 well returned minors , n't well career jeopardy fit point good mle 's aa moved right big club 's one step away traded moved baseball duh methinks recall wrong mitchell hit close 300 atlanta continued walk alot promotion \( think \) left playoff roster , started next year minors even braves tell mad going back struggled last year , doubt , even braves blamed part 'd much rather mitchell say mark whiten cards russ smith n't know anything x 's , know george assistant coach
subject chris webber chokes krueger argon gas uug arizona edu \( theodore r krueger \) organization university arizona , tucson lines 11 marvelous time call chris webber \( resulted technical foul , since team time outs left \) perhaps webber take place bill master choke least red sox fan hopes ted chelsea clinton 's secret service agent replaced active duty soldier objected grounds family dislikes military krueger gas uug arizona edu
wayne ultra com \( wayne hathaway \) subject designated hitter rule reply wayne ultra com \( wayne hathaway \) organization ultra network technologies lines 17 ekdfc ttacs1 ttu edu \( david coons \) rules say baseball game two teams nine players let 's keep way niepornt phoenix princeton edu \( david marc nieporent \) rules n't say 's pretty dumb argument really \? \? \? little mind ! n't 1993 rule book yet , david , would please post new wording rule 1 01 mightily curious ! much thanks wayne hathaway domain wayne ultra com ultra network technologies uucp ! ames ! ultra ! wayne 101 drive phone 408 922 0100 san jose , ca fax 408 433
ring poseidon \( sue \) subject camden yards organization athena design , inc lines 13 nntp posting host poseidon athena com fortunate enough tickets orioles red sox game baltimore saturday , july n't new park , wondering anyone give pointers good tips anything helpful place enjoy every moment spent instance , time gates open \? see orioles take bp \? red sox take bp \? anything tell would appreciated thank advance please respond e mail address know 's still three half months away , i'm ! sue
bohnert leland stanford edu \( matthew bohnert \) subject rickey henderson organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa distribution usa lines 26 michael jackson , jack nicholson , bill would n't making near much money n't 's point \? actually , could care less salary something fact live america , everyone entitled whatever legally obtain sandy haas family willingly negotiate salary 35 million per year rickey , could n't care less really gets goat bullshit spouted spring training , sometimes may play hard , might hurt often , place i'm quote chronicle second week camp , strongly suggests going dog year ownership n't kiss butt money god 's sake , rickey , signed contract 4 years ago , honor play ! say want steve garvey , believe , hated , least put signature piece paper shut mouth played hard contract matt bohnert
kahn troi cc rochester edu \( james kahn \) subject david wells nntp posting host troi cc rochester edu organization university rochester \( rochester , ny \) lines 9 article 1993apr5 iccgcc decnet ab com iccgcc decnet ab com writes david wells landed team yet \? 'd think tigers anemic pitching would grab guy pronto ! jim
steph pegasus cs uiuc edu \( dale stephenson \) subject stephenson picks l east summary division gone birds keywords last chance foolishness article pegasus steph organization university illinois , dept comp sci , urbana , il lines 95 run completely time , 've got get prophesies predictions l qualifications one worse finishes last year 's prediction contest al east 1993 1 baltimore orioles orioles \? well , pondered long hard , came blue jays going wrong direction ca n't bring pick yankees milwaukee fluke indians n't ready contend red sox bad last year , n't get better detroit 's pitching new definition replacement level n't really think orioles win , matter fact , ca n't see team american league winning either division paper \( possible exception yankees , hate \) body win , pick orioles n't really think brady anderson going repeat , \? i'm basing orioles prediction expectation big years cal ripken glenn davis glenn davis \? 's insane yes , without ado strong points , ripken years , olson , getting rid billy ripken weak points may start \( original 30 something \) may fifth starter oates puts best hitters bottom lineup \( anybody else think might calculated maneuver minimize effect ripken \? ca n't move ripken 3 spot , move rest line \? \) would good sign glenn davis wins comeback player year would bad sign tight pennant race , team trades pecota obprediction streak continues harold reynolds leads team caught stealing 2 new york yankees strong points abbot , key , perez could best pitching american league boggs improve hayes weak points mattingly still considered best hitter factor \( yankees lost mets wholesale changes far behind \? \) never count rookie pitchers \( e wickman millitello \) win division would good sign boggs hits 300 would bad sign howe gets arrested obprediction mattingly wo n't top 700 ops 3 toronto blue jays strong points management willing make big deals management power convince teams prospects suspects olerud guzman alomar weak points jackson bell trade shaken faith losing stewart may hurt rotation \( 's really bad sign \) one outfield get base pitching thin behind guzman ward would good sign jack morris considered cy young contender august would bad sign club makes major deals august obprediction morris post better era whip totals last year losing record 4 milwaukee brewers strong points pitching staff exceptional last year weak points molitor gone third \? \? eldred ca n't keep would good sign listach eldred play like last year would bad sign bones plays like last year obprediction wo n't finish year third 5 cleveland indians strong points baerga , belle , nagy weak points pitching staff thin losing really hurts starts felix would good sign 's era consistent atlanta starts would bad sign ted power bullpen ace obprediction alomar back dl star break 6 boston red sox strong points clemens , viola , clemens , detroit , clemens weak points incompetent gm baseball key free agent signing andre dawson gone hatcher center would good sign clemens starts would bad sign clemens dl obprediction russell make sox fans forget reardon interpret 7 detroit tigers strong points tettleton , phillips , whitaker weak points fielder keeps declining , 'll shortstop year worst rotation baseball entirely replaced necessarily better year could ugly would good sign cecil fielder deserving mvp would bad sign cecil fielder whining deserving mvp obprediction cecil wo n't lead league rbis one division go dale j stephenson \( steph cs uiuc edu \) baseball fanatic considered good look wise , especially overburdened information j golden kimball
steph pegasus cs uiuc edu \( dale stephenson \) subject rockies \( rookies \) article pegasus steph organization university illinois , dept comp sci , urbana , il lines 19 news cso uiuc edu uxa cso uiuc edu \( daniel brian lake \) writes 'd think expansion team would filled , guys like murphy , , b smith depends get old veterans cheap , perform higher level young talent , talent develop minors giving fans familiar names cheer veterans gone year two right maybe someone tell front office people denver \) open question important expansion clubs , expansion draft regular draft \( 've one , think \) dale j stephenson \( steph cs uiuc edu \) baseball fanatic considered good look wise , especially overburdened information j golden kimball
garnet berkeley edu \( \) subject cubs behind marlins \? \? article agate organization university california , berkeley lines 12 nntp posting host garnet berkeley edu gajarsky pilot njin net writes morgan guzman era 's 1 run higher last year , cubs idiots pitch harkey much castillo wo n't good \( think 's stud pitcher \) season far , morgan guzman helped lead cubs top era , even better rotation atlanta cubs era 0 braves 0 059 know early season , cubs fans learned enjoy short triumph still
steph pegasus cs uiuc edu \( dale stephenson \) subject giants' gm quinn genius ! article pegasus steph organization university illinois , dept comp sci , urbana , il lines 17 autodesk com autodesk com \( tom schroeder \) writes nlu xenon stanford edu \( nelson lu \) writes time span , braves developed john smoltz , tom glavine , steve avery , david justice , ron gant , jeff blauser , among others avery , believe , came phillies jeff blauser \? ! \? avery 2 overall pick braves , behind mark lewis \( think \) 1988 john smoltz came braves tigers , developed braves jeff blauser n't bad player dale j stephenson \( steph cs uiuc edu \) baseball fanatic considered good look wise , especially overburdened information j golden kimball
admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu \( steve c liu \) subject best record ever baseball organization homewood academic computing , johns hopkins university , baltimore , md , usa lines 19 distribution usa expires 5 9 93 nntp posting host jhunix hcf jhu edu summary believe \? teams , believe cubs best record ever baseball sometime way far back 110 something admiral steve c liu admiral steve c liu internet address admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu commander chief security division pi club earth chapter president earth chapter pi club founded april 1990 1993 world champions baltimore orioles \? series yards 1992 1993 stanley cup champions washington capitals committee liberation intergration terrifying organisms rehabilitation society , problem abbreviation polymorph episode red dwarf bangles greatest female rock band ever existed ! sig brought frungy ! sport kings ! god man , drilling holes head answer ! dr mccoy know , susanna really nice ass comment flanagan pi club creating largest signatures past nine months
subject players rushed majors admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu \( steve c liu \) expires 5 9 93 distribution usa organization homewood academic computing , johns hopkins university , baltimore , md , usa summary big ben nntp posting host jhunix hcf jhu edu lines 25 n't know could call rushed , big ben mcdonald n't much time minors course balls used aaa seams large gave mcdonald forcing go dl several times 's done learning majors course gregg wild thing olson mike deserved cy young mussina n't spend much time minors either read somewhere pitchers less likely need much time minors anyway maybe something let 's go 's ! \? admiral steve still sept 30 , 1989 liu admiral steve c liu internet address admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu commander chief security division pi club earth chapter president earth chapter pi club founded april 1990 1993 world champions baltimore orioles \? series yards 1992 1993 stanley cup champions washington capitals committee liberation intergration terrifying organisms rehabilitation society , problem abbreviation polymorph episode red dwarf bangles greatest female rock band ever existed ! sig brought frungy ! sport kings ! god man , drilling holes head answer ! dr mccoy know , susanna really nice ass comment flanagan pi club creating largest signatures past nine months
subject marlin fans csc2imd cabell vcu edu \( ian derby \) expires fri , 30 apr 1993 04 00 00 gmt organization virginia commonwealth university keywords mf summary marlin fans lines 23 watching dodgers marlins game yesterday couple things impressed first way sun shining miami , summer atmosphere early spring baseball comparison wrigley field early april still look dead ivy bundled fans second important fans like guys gals ! admit football fan first still enjoy baseball interesting fans accustomed miami dolphins way cheering , thought afc playoffs course opening day may lot , really got feeling electricity think lacking lot baseball fans cities baseball certainly needs charge hope two expansion teams bring back excitement 'll find friday denver bronco fans respond phillies 2 0 ! \( better say opportunity passes \)
subject best homeruns csc2imd cabell vcu edu \( ian derby \) expires sun , 25 apr 1993 04 00 00 gmt organization virginia commonwealth university lines 14 personally never forget mike schmidt 's home run expos 1980 decided nl east also career high another home run thought totally incredible 1986 alcs ca angles boston red sox 1 strike away pennant baylor hit two strike pitch home run incredible turn events ever seen baseball sox later took pennant away thing done ws mets speaking mets , n't strange nlcs year astros almost mirrored 1980 nlcs phillies \? \? astros painfully close twice must admit
subject florida sucks ! csc2imd cabell vcu edu \( ian derby \) expires sat , 1 may 1993 04 00 00 gmt organization virginia commonwealth university lines 8 talk phillies winning nl east scary scary ! n't get wrong , im phillies fan late last year looked helpless funny thing lot injuries '92 spring training basically killed chances course , n't forget dykstra wrist injury first second game \?
subject 1964 phillies deja vu \? csc2imd cabell vcu edu \( ian derby \) expires mon , 10 may 1993 04 00 00 gmt organization virginia commonwealth university keywords phillies summary phillies lines 9 reading local paper today , found phillies started 1964 season 10 2 old 1964 , 've heard many talk serious choke job phillies season ahead cardinals 15 games season mid august managed lose bunch cardinals took division 15 ! ! ! games ahead lost hope season much different
lyford webo dg com \( lyford beverage \) subject notes jays vs indians series distribution na organization data general corporation , research triangle park , nc lines 22 article 1993apr13 cs cornell edu , tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) writes article netcom com rudy netcom com \( rudy wade \) writes article 2pm cs dal ca niguma ug cs dal ca \( gord niguma \) writes reference history certainly n't best season second basemen history probably n't even good season alomar last year \? measure \( like popularity toronto n't count \) basing statement \? uh , yes baerga lot flash , alomar better hitter last year batters ba slg obp g ab r h tb 2b 3b hr rbi bb sb cs e baerga , c 312 455 354 161 657 92 205 299 32 1 20 105 35 76 10 2 19 alomar , r 310 427 405 152 571 105 177 244 27 8 8 76 87 52 49 9 5 fascinating say alomar better hitter last year , immediately follow numbers showing baerga better year category see shows advantage alomar obp
brian meaddata com \( brian curran \) subject tiger stadium gif \? organization mead data central , dayton oh lines 9 distribution world nntp posting host taurus meaddata com anybody gif tiger stadium seating chart \? thanks ! brian curran mead data central brian meaddata com n't think 've asked catch temperature age carlton fisk , chicago white sox catcher , playing 40 degree april ball game
c558172 mizzou1 missouri edu subject 1964 phillies deja vu \? organization university missouri x posted mizzou1 missouri edu nntp posting host sol ctr columbia edu lines 16 article 1993apr14 cabell vcu edu csc2imd cabell vcu edu \( ian derby \) writes reading local paper today , found phillies started 1964 season 10 2 old 1964 , 've heard many talk serious choke job phillies season ahead cardinals 15 games season mid august managed lose bunch cardinals took division 15 ! ! ! games ahead lost hope season much different n't shannon cardinals fan kohl
sbp002 acad drake edu subject braves pitching updatedir lines 41 nntp posting host acad drake edu organization drake university , des moines , iowa , usa article 1993apr14 pts mot com , pts mot com \( dave \) writes article adobe com , snichols adobe com \( sherri nichols \) writes every single piece evidence find points major league baseball 50 offense , 50 defense run scored important run prevented certainly passes common sense test , statistical evidence say percent defense pitching percent fielding \? 'd really like know btw , sherri , thanks da data find fascinating course run scored important run prevented penny saved penny earned enough point braves starters able live potential , wo n't need much offensive support realize big staff leaves '92 bosox dust legitimate comparison two cy young winners , three pitchers team league would kill first second starter seems quality pitchers take mound , teams score less runs team scores runs wins puts team better pitching advantage \( providing stop opposing team scoring runs \) low scoring game would clearly benefit braves many low scoring games due excellent pitching average hitting flip side , starting lineup great offensive players , would arguing team would need great pitchers would advantage could simply opponent name games win even ray knight knows putting runs scoreboard i'm trying say assemble quality pitchers like braves , offense n't need strong sam dave sherri nichols snichols adobe com
shapiro david yale edu \( david shapiro \) subject tigers organization , organized \? lines 8 distribution na nntp posting host minerva cis yale edu reply ryan 's message wed , 14 apr 1993 10 09 21 edt woof woof ! david shapiro people call monkey , felt like shapiro david yale edu piano back winter long shapiro minerva cis yale edu piano back maybe next stan
rdetweil boi hp com \( richard detweiler \) subject cards mailing list \? distribution usa organization hewlett packard lines 9 count interested cardinal 's mailing list anyone finds one starts one , please let know thanks , dick detweiler rdetweil hpdmd48 boi hp com
alird msu oscs montana edu subject cubs expos roster questions article msu reply alird msu oscs montana edu organization montana state university lines 13 article 1993apr15 1 vmsb csupomona edu , vmsb csupomona edu writes today \( 4 14 \) cubs activated p mike harkey dl , move make room harkey \? also , delino deshields john wetteland expos dl \? thanks anyone give info ! ken cal poly , pomona wetteland dl effective march 26 something like rick
kahn troi cc rochester edu \( james kahn \) subject tigers 's organization university rochester \( rochester , ny \) lines 11 nntp posting host troi cc rochester edu article 1993apr14 sbcs sunysb edu wynblatt sbgrad5 cs sunysb edu \( michael wynblatt \) writes weird thing leading 20 4 going top ninth , sparky used ace closer , henneman tigers 8 relievers least 6 rested available sparky trust little \? think wanted get henneman work , tigers days day day jim
ns1 cc lehigh edu \( gail \) subject phillies sign mark davis organization lehigh university lines 19 mean pay salary \? n't wait clear waivers \? , \? davis paid three clubs year , think phils 600 , 000 n't wait clear waivers three clubs also interested gamble \? yes oh , \? royals fan , skeptical say pitched well winter ball also pitched well omaha kc n't pitch well \( even \) majors \( n't atlanta stats , must impressed much either \) year got 40 saves san diego , pitch well \? ok , know awful next year went kc still cy young , , year
ns1 cc lehigh edu \( gail \) subject florida sucks ! organization lehigh university lines 12 article 1993apr13 cabell vcu edu , csc2imd cabell vcu edu \( ian derby \) writes talk phillies winning nl east scary scary ! n't get wrong , im phillies fan late last year looked helpless funny thing lot injuries '92 spring training basically killed chances course , n't forget dykstra wrist injury first second game \? first game , first bat
lbr holos0 uucp \( len reed \) subject players rushed majors organization holos software , inc lines 15 article tss com hanson tss com \( hanson \) writes n't bob horner go straight arizona state univ atlanta braves \? remember one great month hitting next heard japan month \? well , short career compared one might expected highly touted prospect due injury prone , overweight , work ethic certainly suffer rushed bigs len reed holos software , inc voice \( 404 \) 496 ext 16 domain lbr holos atl ga usa uucp lbr holos0 uucp
cub csi jpl nasa gov \( ray miller \) subject sid fernandez \? nntp posting host chopin organization jet propulsion laboratory distribution usa lines 10 read morning sid fernandez left last game stiffness shoulder anyone information extent injury \( indeed one \) , weather cold air colorado got joints little stiff \? thanks help ray miller disclaimer cub chopin jpl nasa gov opinions strictly spent year philadelphia , think sunday
! ernest ! m2 dseg ti com ! csc ti com ! mksol ! kerr dseg ti com ! kkerr dseg ti com kkerr dseg ti com mk \( kevin kerr \) subject 1 game closer organization engineering automation lines 38 nntp posting host kerr dseg ti com article 1993apr6 freenet carleton ca freenet carleton ca \( ralph \) writes freenet carleton ca \( ralph \) subject 1 game closer date tue , 6 apr 1993 23 38 05 gmt previous article , 002251w axe acadiau ca \( jason walter works \) says n yankees , one game closer l east pennant clobbered cleveland , 9 1 , fine pitching performance key , two homeruns tartabull \( first l baseball go season \) , three run homer nokes n't pick boggs pools , tough break , couple hits , drove couple runs \( many follow \) yanks beat coming team youngsters indians yankees need win 95 games get division go yanks , mattingly g glove , mvp , abbot cy young jason mean read drivel another 95 times season \? please spare us check facts post ! ralph life baseball freenet carleton ca one says read ralph go play traffic , take nap work kevin kerr kkerr dseg ti com president north texas 'c' programmers users group bbs \( 214 \) 442 0223 go yankees ! ! ! go dolphins ! ! ! cyberspace , electric wind
subject let known byuvm bitnet organization brigham young university lines 10 would like make everyone aware winning nl west atlanta braves lead wire wire games 4 14 93 houston astros percentage points ahead braves go astros ! ! ! ! ! byron lee native stuck utah
jtchern ocf berkeley edu \( joseph hernandez \) subject mlb standings scores thu , apr 15th , 1993 organization jtc enterprises sports division \( major league baseball dept \) lines 73 distribution world nntp posting host monsoon berkeley edu mlb standings scores thursday , april 15th , 1993 \( including yesterday 's games \) national west lost pct gb last 10 streak home road houston astros 05 03 625 5 3 5 00 03 05 00 atlanta braves 06 04 600 6 4 lost 1 03 03 03 01 san francisco giants 05 04 556 0 5 5 4 lost 1 02 01 03 03 los angeles dodgers 03 06 333 2 5 3 6 lost 3 00 02 03 04 colorado rockies 02 05 286 2 5 2 5 lost 3 02 03 00 02 san diego padres 02 06 250 3 0 2 6 lost 3 00 03 02 03 cincinnati reds 02 07 222 3 5 2 7 lost 3 01 02 01 05 national east philadelphia phillies 08 01 889 8 1 5 05 01 03 00 pittsburgh pirates 06 02 750 1 5 6 2 3 03 02 03 00 st louis cardinals 06 02 750 1 5 6 2 2 04 02 02 00 new york mets 04 03 571 3 0 4 3 2 02 03 02 00 chicago cubs 04 05 444 4 0 4 5 1 01 02 03 03 montreal expos 03 05 375 4 5 3 5 lost 2 00 02 03 03 florida marlins 03 06 333 5 0 3 6 2 02 04 01 02 american west lost pct gb last 10 streak home road texas rangers 06 02 750 6 2 lost 1 04 02 02 00 california angels 05 02 714 0 5 5 2 3 03 02 02 00 oakland athletics 04 03 571 1 5 4 3 lost 1 04 02 00 01 seattle mariners 04 03 571 1 5 4 3 1 03 02 01 01 chicago white sox 04 04 500 2 0 4 4 1 02 03 02 01 minnesota twins 04 04 500 2 0 4 4 lost 1 01 02 03 02 kansas city royals 01 07 125 5 0 1 7 lost 2 01 05 00 02 american east boston red sox 06 02 750 6 2 2 02 00 04 02 new york yankees 05 03 625 1 0 5 3 2 02 00 03 03 toronto blue jays 04 03 571 1 5 4 3 lost 1 03 02 01 01 detroit tigers 03 04 429 2 5 3 4 1 01 00 02 04 cleveland indians 03 05 375 3 0 3 5 lost 2 02 01 01 04 milwaukee brewers 02 05 286 3 5 2 5 lost 4 00 02 02 03 baltimore orioles 02 06 250 4 0 2 6 1 00 02 02 04 yesterday's scores \( idle teams listed alphabetical order \) national league american league houston 9 baltimore 6 montreal 5 texas 5 pittsburgh 11 seattle 10 san diego 7 toronto 9 \( 10 \) chicago 6 cleveland 7 atlanta 0 boston 12 cincinnati 2 california 12 philadelphia 9 milwaukee 2 new york 6 kansas city 5 colorado 3 new york 6 florida 6 minnesota ppd san francisco 4 chicago rain st louis 2 detroit idle los angeles 1 \( 15 \) oakland idle joseph hernandez rams lakers jtchern ocf berkeley edu kings dodgers raiders jtcent soda berkeley edu angels clippers
organization university notre dame office univ computing rvesterm vma cc nd edu subject powell \( camden yards \) 1993apr13 25249 alchemy chem utoronto ca lines 9 article 1993apr13 25249 alchemy chem utoronto ca , mark b says better \? borders blasphemy bob vesterman
organization university notre dame office univ computing rvesterm vma cc nd edu subject nl vs al \? vma cc nd edu 1993apr13 news yale edu lines 23 article 1993apr13 news yale edu , \( sean garrison \) says article vma cc nd edu , rvesterm vma cc nd edu wrote pitchers well likely taken game nl al , seems al , nl , promotes pitchers' bob vesterman basis make statement \? q sean serious \? pitchers pinch hit nl nl pitcher cranking al , stay game cranking nl , may especially 's pitchers' duel , team needs extra run bob vesterman
organization university notre dame office univ computing rvesterm vma cc nd edu subject ugliest swing 1993apr12 intel com oasys dt navy mil lines 16 article oasys dt navy mil , oasys dt navy mil \( brian \) says think ab 's way leans plate watch outside pitches etc done get better look pitch , make seem , ball far need lean get near better call ball unbiased opinion see mileage vary rickey player watch forget time lot batters lean pitches come rickey 's tends exaggerate , think great player watch forget unbiased hmmm bob vesterman
mace cc purdue edu \( unknown \) subject causes cardiac arrest organization purdue university lines 21 article phakt usc edu wagner phakt usc edu \( loren wagner \) writes article 1993apr14 bmw mayo edu mayo edu writes maybe would rather ron davis back \? \? \? \? \) truly amazing thing many years bum closer twins 'd thought could find somebody better wagner usc edu going ninth 3 run lead , 2 runs score runners first second rd throws , 's drive back , puckett wall , , caught ball ! ! ! ! catch kirby ! ! twins win ! rd gets save line 1 ip , 2 walks , 2 hits , one robbed home run paul
garnet berkeley edu \( steven \) subject kevin rogers organization university california , berkeley lines 8 nntp posting host garnet berkeley edu rogers one batter lefty bullpen dusty also said trusts rogers get final ballgame beck unavailable , might see couple saves kevin , regular rotation , rogers possible candidate start , though would appear less likely dave burba well emergency start steven
gt7469a prism gatech edu \( brian r landmann \) subject torre worst manager \? organization georgia institute technology lines 31 joe torre worst manager baseball anyone n't see sunday 's game , right hander pitching decides bench lankform , left handed hitter play jordan gilkey , right handers later , ninth inning bases loaded two outs puts lankford , 300 hitter power pinch runner uses luis alicea , 250 hitter power pinch hitter hell thinking earlier game interview acquiring mark whiten commented fortunate cardinals get whiten whiten would regular even though meant gilkey would hurt , torre said liked gilkey coming bench gilkey hit 300 last year , start , guy would starting every team league furthermore , sundays game lankford thrown plate , replay showed bucky dent third base coach looking line waving lankford home , ca n't take anymore brian , distressed cardinal fan brian landmann georgia institute technology internet gt7469a prism gatech edu
jja2h virginia edu \( \) subject taylor \? organization university virginia lines 9 last year taylor ball , probably tampa florida state league believe began year aa albany hopefully george wo n't rush 'll allowed progress rate aaa bronx guy real thing jonathan uva
jja2h virginia edu \( \) subject wfan organization university virginia lines 14 one listen wfan \? know talking , sports radio new york clear night signal reaches east coast particular , want know len berman mike lupica 's show go school virginia ca n't listen day wondering jonathan uva ps one see steve 48 hours last night chief , rangers round pretty neat p r tv
uwaterloo ca \( ron \) subject orioles phillies red sox keywords orioles phillies red sox baltimore philadelphia boston bosox organization university waterloo distribution na lines 20 someone send ticket ordering information following teams baltimore , philadelphia boston also , home schedule available tell dates home games games promotion nights special discount nights \? thanks ! ! ! ron ps also opponents games \) reply account , please reply vnet ibm com ibm canada lab database technology associate development analyst \( 416 \) 448 tie line 778 internal mail 51 843 895 tor
shearson com \( bobby \) subject pleasant yankee surprises reply shearson com organization lehman brothers , inc lines 30 article 120399 netnews upenn edu , sepinwal mail sas upenn edu \( alan sepinwall \) writes , pleasant surprises 2 \) tartabull book tartabull , keep healthy 'll produce well , n't done much far sure 's hit homers , solo shots , n't gotten big rbis cleanup man supposed give , slow start last year \( got dl , \) turned one man wrecking crew see series ! alan let 's see april 15th less 30 bats claim n't done much far ! cut guy slack danny produce year 's scary think much 'll produce stay healthy year yanks lot going year good starting rotation , good bullpen , good defense good lineup also , like buck showalter frank howard 1st also good move everything sounds good far yanks stay healthy , good chance winning pennant fun 've watching yanks since 78 ! bobby
tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) subject old predictions laugh summary long ! organization cornell univ cs dept , ithaca ny 14853 lines 404 oops ! came across file last year thought might enjoy thoughts predictions made date indicated largely order june 11 , 1992 tedward cs cornell edu \( ! \) done \? computed expected winning percentage team obp , total bases , runs allowed use basic rc formula pythagorean projection compare actual winning percentage stats june 7 team obp tb ra w l diff baltimore 0 351 768 199 33 21 0 647 36 boston 0 334 580 176 26 25 0 548 38 toronto 0 319 750 221 34 22 0 540 68 new york 0 327 759 237 28 26 0 523 5 milwaukee 0 325 692 226 28 25 0 498 31 detroit 0 328 782 285 24 31 0 448 11 cleveland 0 316 688 274 22 34 0 386 7 minnesota 0 353 797 237 30 24 0 585 29 oakland 0 350 719 236 32 23 0 532 50 texas 0 324 815 281 33 26 0 469 90 chicago 0 325 601 212 25 27 0 459 22 california 0 307 664 231 22 32 0 438 30 kansas city 0 310 656 239 22 32 0 420 13 seattle 0 310 726 290 22 33 0 376 24 know things turned orioles , red sox , yankees disappeared jays tigers continued essentially expected pace brewers indians second half rangers took dive n't surprised anybody meanwhile , predicted , mariners dropped behind angels royals clearly n't deserve 22 33 record june white sox 's upped game bit , twins dropped little part things expected okay , blatant errors predictive calculation , thought pretty well yalevm ycc yale edu tue mar 31 16 36 34 1992 1 braves insert kent starting rotation sometime year \( 1992 \) traded released , lei brandt becomes fifth starter , best bullpen baseball pena , , stanton , , freeman , pete smith , spot starts well hm pete smith made rotation instead n't released end year wo n't comment bullpen \( jeff reardon \? \? \? \) 2 blauser wins starting shortstop job outright end may bream goes dl , klesko goes nice hitting \( la gregg jefferies 1988 \) hunter mitchell wins center field job bit later \( star break \? \) nixon stays valuable pinch runner lonnie released unless braves find taker trade right blauser wrong bream mitchell bit early lonnie , n't pick sanders \( anybody \? \) 3 managers fired year \( 1992 \) chronological order fregosi , showalter , valentine , three went , right \? showalter still around \( likely stick , seems \) auto trol com ! auto trol com tue mar 31 17 04 22 1992 1 \) bonds gets traded bucs young talent nope ! division , kept shot playoffs 2 \) mets win division \) well , n't finish last 3 \) atlanta repeats west got one right 4 \) yankees surprise everyone , finish second behind toronto nope 5 \) dwight gooden wins 20 , surpassed saberhagen wins 22 guess picked mets win , huh \? 6 \) roger clemens injured early season tsk tsk nice predict something like 7 \) strawberry fails hit even 20 home runs often injured 8 \) due 7 , dodgers drop race got right ! response tedward tue mar 31 17 57 42 1992 ! tell mets fan ! mind make counter predictions \? follow 2 \) mets come third , behind pittsburgh montreal okay , mets finished fifth got pirates expos right ! 4 \) yankees offense pitching , dropping fourth place al east boston wins 95 games , division , pennant , world series first half \? dead ! second half \? ummm i'm sox fan , go easy ! 5 \) dwight gooden rushes comeback , gets blown , goes dl may mid july saberhagen runs 500 record wfan mets giving away great talent jefferies , solid year kc got predictions gooden saberhagen reversed \) least close , right jefferies \( though n't know wfan criticized jefferies trade \? \) 6 \) roger clemens wins another cy , well 20 games close cigar article li1 andrew cmu edu , andrew cmu edu \( amit \) writes excerpts netnews rec sport baseball 1 apr 92 nl east \( smiley trade 's yalevm ycc yale \( 591 \) ops projected 1992 hojo 792 streak naked forbes avenue hojo muster 792 ops something wrong projection predictions need introduction ! casbah acns nwu edu mon apr 13 02 09 15 1992 tedward cs cornell edu care put prediction \? predict mark grace get 90 rbis say mind almost impossible 10 hr type guy batting behind dawson \( kills rallies n't finish \) say \? mark driven 82 \( '90 \) 79 \( '89 \) last year mark batting second primarily worse year average wise since batting either 3rd 5th year predict back previous standards \( think better \) 90 rbi 's much stretch sometimes us get lucky grace n't hit behind dawson entire season , also finished 79 rbis midway uchicago edu tue may 19 22 09 06 1992 prediction ever mark mcgwire hit 61 hrs year nope slowed , injury finished n't even reach 50 prediction , nonetheless ecaxron mars lerc nasa gov thu may 21 16 42 21 1992 \( 1 \) baltimore fade win division year , finish within five games find prospect two orioles winning 20 easier comprehend two sox offense think pitching good division offer orioles finished seven games none 20 \( though mussina might chance , better relief starts \) \( 2 \) nobody else division worth darn finish minimum fifteen games , tribe 30 's another reason watch baltimore year next wo n't waste many games rest division except brewers \( probably forgot \) , right ! rest division thoroughly mediocre yankees indians led 76 wins , red sox 73 wins none horrible , four five games 500 djohnson cayley uwaterloo ca \( david johnson \) date thu , 6 aug 1992 15 47 30 gmt right never said jays clinch said milwaukee threat baltimore think toronto win '87 n't consider anything unless something like 4 game lead 3 games go think jays best talented team al east good , even average manager might bigger lead right also think orioles play much better 500 baseball rest season win ! king cogsci ucsd edu thu nov 14 14 33 45 1991 article cs cornell edu write 7 indians first 0 162 season ever ! \) prediction cleveland indians win 70 games next year right ! meteor wisc edu fri sep 13 01 15 52 1991 1 jose win 1992 cy young award healthy enough go least 210 ip \( would thought would try steal base \? risk injury \? \? \? \) 211 ip , n't win cy young maddux surprised 2 orioles win 88 games least 3 next 6 years \( probably last 3 \) pitching staff team era among best 4 al least 3 next 6 years \( necessarily years win 88 \) one take long time verify n't think want wait long 89 games last year , fifth league era bad start 4 ben mcdonald challenge era title next 2 years , 18 victories either year \( challenge , mean finish among leaders among leaders season done n't count \) probably never pitcher hyped , still decent starter looks like n't bad last year , consistent ace far year looks like 5 phillies give many fewer walks get rid bullpen coach \( ryan \) \( predicting whether get rid , give team little bit time adjust seeing radical change would fine pitching staff would steal ray miller away pittsburg white sox seem problem , bad \) honestly ca n't say get rid \? bb totals last year 7 ricky jordan 90 rbi starts 145 games , hitting 3 4 5 spot lineup 6 spot lineup good obp 4 , 5 hitters applies next 3 years n't think 's good 12 billy ripken never hit 240 400 ab \) far , good i'm definitely waiting check one panix ! spira cmcl2 nyu edu fri sep 13 12 38 08 1991 matter lou gorman scouts say , paul quantrill never ever adequate major league starter never ! \( never seen starting pitcher strike 3 per 9 innings aaa successful majors \) current plans seem use quantrill long relief rubber arm unusual delivery might decent role lyle ecn purdue edu sat sep 14 01 51 28 1991 v p `92 l frank thomas n l hal morris division winners `92 l east baltimore orioles l west chicago white sox l pennant chicago white sox n l east st louis cardinals n l west reds n l pennant reds w champion reds wrong \( hal morris \? \? \? \? \) favorites ! tedward sun oct 20 23 52 57 1991 belle walk many 50 times 1992 belle hit hr walks 1992 belle hit 34 hr last year , walking 52 times \( five intentional ! \) okay , exaggerate might right trn jhuapl edu tue mar 31 15 25 28 1992 's going sign cal , eli 's wallet welded shut \( outgoing money , wide open incoming cash 8 \) \) prediction \( may make note , valentine \) \) , eli jacobs defer serious negotiations cal ripken 's contract '92 season eli give cal every opportunity stats bit last year 's pace coming forth offer \( despite claims op cy designed cal 's strength , feeling 411 foot left center canyon cut cal 's power stats \) , 's hard offer 3 4 million year star game mvp al mvp gold glove shortstop baseball deity \) 'd lot easier offer similar salary obviously declining average shortstop career year one full season ago course , cal match '91 numbers , eli going faced rather huge \( expensive \) problem much cal sign \? sign \? remember correctly , got rather hefty contract despite weak season finally uwovax uwo ca thu sep 12 10 35 58 1991 generally , expansion 1993 , lot mediocre talent hanging around much make , expansion teams look younger talent around build teams specific predictions april 7 , 1993 jim acker cory snider selling aluminum siding snyder still sf acker gone \? \? neither charlie vance \( presently tiger aa formerly big leaguers \) playing professional ball n't majors dave \( says 's keeping shape hope another shot expansion \) never heard shawn hare jody hurst major leagues \( outfielders tiger minor league system \) n't think majors ron minor league manager yankees dunno happened bye bye 's still around , 's stuck minors bo jackson starter hm raines , bo looks get lot pt gary moved alaska permanently \( 're net ! \) , \) dave kirsch return canada live hm thanks listening ! valentine
tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) subject 've found secret ! organization cornell univ cs dept , ithaca ny 14853 lines 15 red sox first place \? eight games season , already two wins clemens viola clemens starts tonight , three days rest 's \? sox going four man rotation \? hesketh used relief last night \? hm cheers , valentine p wrong sox already scored 18 runs two games week reach 25 without trouble still think 's fluke
dtate pitt edu \( david tate \) subject braves pitching updatedir organization department industrial engineering lines 54 sbp002 acad drake edu said article adobe com , snichols adobe com \( sherri nichols \) writes every single piece evidence find points major league baseball 50 offense , 50 defense run scored important run prevented course run scored important run prevented penny saved penny earned enough 's cliche , \( unlike comments \) 's tautology need n't true every pitcher baseball essentially quality \( e variance pitching ability much smaller variance batting ability \) , scoring runs would much important preventing , simply ability actively prevent runs would much weaker point braves starters able live potential , wo n't need much offensive support 's point , said fact said pitching defense win championships , later pitching essence baseball neither says claiming point , neither true seems quality pitchers take mound , teams score less runs team scores runs wins accuse sherri mouthing ! \? puts team better pitching advantage \( providing stop opposing team scoring runs \) low scoring game would clearly benefit braves 's clear true high scoring games , team better offense wins high percentage time low scoring games , split essentially 50 50 regardless team ability many low scoring games due excellent pitching average hitting flip side , starting lineup great offensive players , would arguing team would need great pitchers thought said pitching defense win championships pitching essence baseball david tate \( dtate pitt edu \) greetings , sir , bat quick member iie , orsa , tims , sabr hands soft , eye discerning denver call slugger \? big catullus galarraga compare mattingly ! \?
dtate pitt edu \( david tate \) subject notes jays vs indians series distribution na organization department industrial engineering lines 34 substituting irony brains , \( bruce klopfenstein \) said dtate pitt edu \( david tate \) writes course left rbis 're comparing alomar individual baerga individual , individual stats count forgot runs scored players stealing home , rbi n't count anything uh , right also forgot ca n't get rbi \( barring hr \) nobody base fraction runs come solo hr \? runs scored happened players base batter something good use phrase happened lots people tried figure players ability turn notch clutch rbi whatever situations , 've found evidence anyone ability measurable extent clutch hitters people tend things would cause rbi somebody base end getting rbis proportional many teammates obliged position mistake agree david tate \( dtate pitt edu \) greetings , sir , bat quick member iie , orsa , tims , sabr hands soft , eye discerning denver call slugger \? big catullus galarraga compare mattingly ! \?
hbrooks uiatma atmos uiuc edu \( harold brooks \) subject spanky released keywords ! \? ! organization colorado needs huckabay campaign committee lines 45 article 1993apr12 sei cmu edu wp sei cmu edu \( william \) writes deletions spanky n't good defensively anymore , 's offensive liability , , judging winter bucs failed sign , 's jerk head sand tommy prince , hand , ca n't hit paper , simmons citing case tom pagnozzi , never hit minors majors , suddenly somehow learned geez , dal must slipped something ted 's drink sometime comparing prince pagnozzi offensively laughable prince never hit well minors 's 27 years old , think pagnozzi bad hitter minors \( 'll bring numbers tomorrow assuming n't another brain cramp forget \) good year louisville coming majors recall , hype pagnozzi coming organization good hit , decent fielding got majors n't hit well expected \( much playing time \? \) , became exhibit 312 law catcher defense got reputation outstanding defensive catcher 's clear ever learned hit four years 100 ab born 31 july 1962 year ab ba slg oba 1988 195 282 320 328 1990 220 277 373 321 1991 459 264 351 317 1992 485 249 359 290 power , less league average walks , peak year turned 28 , declining ted going invoke pagnozzi model prince , given prince pagnozzi minors , 's rosy picture btw , i'm still unhappy moving zeile , reputation coming cardinal organization pagnozzi , except much , much better hitter , 3rd could average hitter average fielder instead well average hitter average \( average \) fielding catcher harold harold brooks hbrooks uiatma atmos uiuc edu national severe storms laboratory \( norman , ok \) used work brewery , , n't drink job p dal 's view florida win nl east '93
klein pavo concordia ca \( corelmark ! \) subject players rushed majors news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host concordia ca organization concordia university lines 6 missed original post , n't expos rushing entire team year \? montreal , fan , geez , expos rank 27th salary \( rockies trail \) someone average age would probably first year university ! corelmark !
klein pavo concordia ca \( corelmark ! \) subject cubs expos roster questions news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host concordia ca organization concordia university lines 26 article msu oscs montana edu , alird msu oscs montana edu writes article 1993apr15 1 vmsb csupomona edu , vmsb csupomona edu writes today \( 4 14 \) cubs activated p mike harkey dl , move make room harkey \? also , delino deshields john wetteland expos dl \? thanks anyone give info ! ken cal poly , pomona wetteland dl effective march 26 something like rick wetteland comes dl april 23rd , evaluated 24th throwing well , without pain side deshields dl suffered chicken pox lost \( official total \) 12 pounds back , hopefully , next week walker back tonight tomorrow corelmark ! montreal
organization university illinois chicago , academic computer center david uicvm uic edu subject cubs expos roster questions msu oscs montana edu lines 1 make room harkey , cubs sent shawn aaa
st1rp rosie uh edu \( schwam , david \) subject astros back ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! organization university houston lines 80 distribution usa nntp posting host rosie uh edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article austin ibm com , marc yogi austin ibm com \( marc j stephenson \) writes keeping line net , 'll hold astros way back could indeed contend , would count 1 \) atlanta problems , injuries keeping early season hitting atlanta undisputed best starting rotation , feel relief staff may suspect n't real closer although mike stanton \( 4 saves \) used role n't stanton start great last year \? despite , point well taken atlanta n't seem personality ny team , thus unlikely self destruct houston take 'em , atlanta needs suffer injuries , particularly starting rotation 2 \) astros relief corps holding together doug jones keeps effective xavier hernandez effective , 's 's reasonable left handed help , middle relief tom expected take joe boever setup man role , 's injured , expansion team acquisition anyway houston thought boever would demand much money , let go doug jones lose touch went cleveland 's star closer minors pretty short span understand , boever murphy considered expendable club houston felt positions could filled number players art doug jones key houston 's success must another great year houston challenge nl west spring closer minors pretty short span right ! strong rotation take pressure troubling bullpen bit fifth starter slot \( 's basically normal \) 4 \) , anthony , gonzalez , cedeno fulfilling hitting potential anthony appears , 's swing looks lot better year \( solid knock expos last night \) , gonzalez showing early power , cedeno still swing side tim wallach strength lower part order saved club far biggio finley n't job getting base instead filling role rbi man , bagwell assume biggio finley 's job biggio concerns , since usually starts season strong side note , concerned rumors concerning next year 's uniform \? talk road uniform \( blech \) traditional grey , word houston written across chest i'm mistaken , home uniforms may totally eliminate color orange \( shiver \) 's favorite color red , i'm really upset current dull new ones sound horrible 'd like see uniform mid 1980s return may pretty , houston established long precident wearing ugliest uniforms baseball liked end bargain \( remember two years ago \? little relief goes long way \) , could win 90 games , doubt 'll project 85 wins astros fan since days staub , morgan , jackson , , , marc stephenson ibm aws \( advanced workstations systems austin , tx \) disclaimer content posting independent official ibm position internet marc austin ibm com vnet marc ibm l 678 3189 astros fan since days ryan , scott , smith , cruz , davis , bass , hatcher david schwam university houston st1rp jetson uh edu
\( steve tomassi \) subject dave kingman hall fame nntp posting host berkeley kstar node net yale edu organization yale computing center lines 39 hi , baseball fans ! say \? n't think deserves \? mean , heck , dave winfield \( ho hum \) seriously considered , lee smith \( ha \) , n't give dave kingman chance \? darrell evans ! yeah , yeah ! hall fame takes , take eddie murray jeff reardon well , case , sick tired \( mostly sick \) everybody giving hall fame consideration players today 's standards , marginal honestly , ozzie smith robin yount n't belong 're shortstops hung around long time big deal let 's little selective , huh \? stop handing honors liberally save guys really deserve face , something n't done , little prestige hall fame anymore certain individuals believe steve garvey jack morris potential candidates , absurdity apparent gee , guys even compare likely future hall famers like kirby puckett nolan ryan \? steve
roger crux princeton edu \( roger lustig \) subject seeking moe berg reference info originator news nimaster nntp posting host crux princeton edu reply roger astro princeton edu \( roger lustig \) organization princeton university distribution na lines 29 article news cis umn edu cs umn edu \( lance smith \) writes article vax clarku edu hhenderson vax clarku edu writes david tate writes also , particular , colleague mine looking information find moe berg , catcher linguist ww2 references \( anecdotes , matter \) would appreciated moe berg , hero ! talking monday yankee game well , 's book 's think title moe berg athlete , scholar , spy , tom sewell two people whose names forget sewell wrote chapter berg danny 's book cult baseball players good source famous anecdotes berg also excellent section bill gilbert 's book also served , baseball wwii i'm told berg 's spy activities mentioned recent book heisenberg 's war sister also wrote book moe self published title something like brother , morris berg 's mainly memories page page xerox copies pictures letters moe saved copies kinda hard find , smith baseball library one minneapolis one , berg 's mater \( class 1923 \) 's kind sour thing disapproved job sewell et al done roger
mcdowell ecn purdue edu \( james mcdowell \) subject texas ranger ticket info organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 4 would someone please give address texas ranger ticket orders thanks much jim
rdetweil boi hp com \( richard detweiler \) subject torre worst manager \? organization hewlett packard boise printer division lines 75 another distressed still wondering things cardinal fan article 93095 hydra gatech edu gt7469a prism gatech edu \( brian r landmann \) writes joe torre worst manager baseball 's greatest true anyone n't see sunday 's game , saw right hander pitching decides bench lankform , left handed hitter play jordan gilkey , right handers lankford hurt , although announcer said told torre could pinch hit needed later , ninth inning bases loaded two outs puts lankford , 300 hitter power pinch runner uses luis alicea , 250 hitter power pinch hitter hell thinking wondered thing giving joe benefit doubt , 'd say thinking lankford hurt enough n't trust ability bat effectively wants speed bases pinch run alicea completely confused maybe good record hitting particular pitcher \? n't know anybody got idea \? earlier game interview acquiring mark whiten commented fortunate cardinals get whiten whiten would regular even though meant gilkey would hurt , torre said liked gilkey coming bench gilkey hit 300 last year , start , guy would starting every team league well , far n't seen much say whiten n't playing bad gilkey odd man play jordan ahead n't quite understand furthermore , sundays game lankford thrown plate , replay showed bucky dent third base coach looking line waving lankford home , yup , looked replay i'm joe torre , i'm going talk bucky game one 's got lankford third todd zeile believe hot hitter coming 's reason risk giving lankford go sign situation unless sure ball going stands 's job watch play develop known larkin back bad throw seemed inexcusable book btw , saw dent thing last year zeile rounding third going sure home critical situation replay , 's dent waving around looks like might serious problem card 's n't good base runners last year wonder much fault lies base coaching ca n't take anymore well , i'm still hanging go redbirds ! ! woof , woof ! ! ! brian , distressed cardinal fan brian landmann georgia institute technology internet gt7469a prism gatech edu dick detweiler rdetweil hpdmd48 boi hp com
philly ravel udel edu \( robert c hite \) subject dave kingman hall fame nntp posting host ravel udel edu organization university delaware lines 39 article 1993apr15 news yale edu \( steve tomassi \) writes honestly , ozzie smith robin yount n't belong 're shortstops hung around long time big deal real \? many gold gloves ozzie smith \? guy hung around hit 30 homers year 15 years , would n't given hall \? defense important \? robin yount could n't hit , would stuck around long enough get 3 , 000 hits \? saying 3 , 000 hits fluke \? 3 , 000 hits big deal \? let 's little selective , huh \? stop handing honors liberally save guys really deserve face , something n't done , little prestige hall fame anymore certain individuals believe steve garvey jack morris potential candidates , absurdity apparent gee , guys even compare agree , garvey morris n't deserve likely future hall famers like kirby puckett nolan ryan \? well , based argument , nolan ryan n't deserve hall fame right hander stuck around long time could throw hard 20 game winning seasons , lots losing seasons , lots walks cy young awards nolan ryan compare guy like steve carlton dominated 5 6 major league seasons , 7 , 2 world series , half teams games 1972 \? n't compare even close kirby puckett n't done long enough give 5 seasons like 's , 'll think
philly ravel udel edu \( robert c hite \) subject wfan nntp posting host ravel udel edu organization university delaware lines 26 article 1993apr15 3551 virginia edu jja2h virginia edu \( \) writes one listen wfan \? know talking , sports radio new york clear night signal reaches east coast particular , want know len berman mike lupica 's show go school virginia ca n't listen day wondering fan okay sports radio station , n't come close ultimate sports radio , 610 wip philadelphia signal might powerful , stations new york feel obligated everyone else 's airwaves bunch hoodlum mets fans complaining 24 hours day wip took two best sports jockeys , jody macdonald steve fredericks 610 wip sports talk 5 30 till midnight , check anytime within hours philadelphia i'm mistaken , wip highest sports talk ratings nation \? rob p nice thing fan talk sports night hopefully 610 begin somewhat soon
jrogoff scott skidmore edu \( jay rogoff \) subject expanded nl strike zone \? \( surfeit offense \? \) organization skidmore college , saratoga springs ny lines 5 impression watching mets rockies umpires calling strikes belt , , far letters would nice case jay
acsddc smucs1 umassd edu subject fenway gif reply acsddc smucs1 umassd edu organization umass dartmouth , dartmouth , lines 5 wondering anyone kind fenway park gif would appreciate someone could send one thanks advance dan
organization university illinois chicago , academic computer center uicvm uic edu subject harry caray distribution na lines 17 last night bill cam dreams said cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck oh yeah , added harry drunken idiot shoulda stayed st louis heart , also added fair weathered fans like together guess reason harry cub fan , bud man note never really left st , louis jim walker go sox , cubs suck !
philly ravel udel edu \( robert c hite \) subject old predictions laugh nntp posting host ravel udel edu organization university delaware lines 24 article 1993apr15 cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) writes oops ! came across file last year thought might enjoy thoughts predictions made date indicated largely order much crap deleted 3 managers fired year \( 1992 \) chronological order fregosi , showalter , valentine , three went , right \? showalter still around \( likely stick , seems \) dead wrong ! last time checked , jim fregosi still managing phillies , quite fine job thank best record baseball 8 1 prediction 1993 jim fregosi win manager year nl \( n't flame flame bum thinks got fired last year pay attention ! \)
cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu \( oriolefan uiuc \) subject dave kingman hall fame organization university illinois urbana lines 59 \( steve tomassi \) writes hi , baseball fans ! say \? n't think deserves \? mean , heck , dave winfield \( ho hum \) seriously considered , lee smith \( ha \) , n't give dave kingman chance \? darrell evans ! yeah , yeah ! hall fame takes , take eddie murray jeff reardon well , case , sick tired \( mostly sick \) everybody giving hall fame consideration players today 's standards , marginal honestly , ozzie smith robin yount n't belong 're shortstops hung around long time big deal let 's little selective , huh \? stop handing honors liberally save guys really deserve face , something n't done , little prestige hall fame anymore certain individuals believe steve garvey jack morris potential candidates , absurdity apparent gee , guys even compare likely future hall famers like kirby puckett nolan ryan \? q steve 's difference nolan ryan yount \? hung around years , continue post great stats n't dave kingman get hall \? murray , evens , reardon , others \? hell \? ask opposing pitcher whether thinks winfield hall god pretty soon 'll saying cal ripken n't deserve hall , 'll flame \) chintan amin university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu neil peart , \( c \) 1981 quick judge , quick anger , slow understand , ignorance prejudice fear walk hand hand
re4 prism gatech edu \( russell earnest \) subject players rushed majors organization georgia institute technology lines 29 article 1993apr15 holos0 uucp , lbr holos0 uucp \( len reed \) writes article tss com hanson tss com \( hanson \) writes n't bob horner go straight arizona state univ atlanta braves \? remember one great month hitting next heard japan month \? well , short career compared one might expected highly touted prospect due injury prone , overweight , work ethic certainly suffer rushed bigs sorry len , exactly suffered rushed bigs overweight work ethic , leading injury prone nothing loose , might corrected richmond \( intend smiley comment \? \) brings back long suffering memories pre chop braves fans kept promised bob horner dale murphy back back power slam could stop \? guess 'll never know p rocky fans \( yet \? \) dale getting playing time \? plan game june 28th , 'll play read memory process ! russell earnest georgia institute technology , atlanta georgia , 30332 uucp ! allegra , amd , hplabs , seismo , ut ngp ! gatech ! prism ! re4 arpa russell earnest housing gatech edu
ursa calvin edu \( david \) subject phillies mailing list \? nntp posting host ursa organization calvin college lines 7 anyone know phillies mailing list \? n't get much coverage grand rapids , mi sob elaborate signature files people n't busy dh 1992 david ursa calvin edu
scasburn magnus acs ohio state edu \( steven casburn \) subject people want stats \? nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 19 article hpfcso fc hp com hpfcso fc hp com \( doug steele \) wri tes top 10 posting al home runs hits batter team hrs batter team hits gonzalez tex 5 baerga cle 13 palmer tex 4 phillips det 13 anyone think texas would top two home run leaders given point season neither one would jose canseco \? steve steve casburn \( scasburn magnus acs ohio state edu \) personally despair results anything violent ruthless truth telling work end , even slowly john maynard keynes , 1919
organization university illinois chicago , academic computer center uicvm uic edu subject white sox update 1993apr11 midway uchicago edu lines 9 think lamont sax left messing mind trying stir loose mental block sax supposed play left last night \( 4 14 \) rained 's like need add outfielders team 's mental jimmy go sox , cubs suck ! \( 's white sox , know \? \)
anl gov \( jeff eastman \) subject cubs expos roster questions organization argonne national laboratory lines 23 article pavo concordia ca , klein pavo concordia ca \( corelmark ! \) wrote article msu oscs montana edu , alird msu oscs montana edu writes article 1993apr15 1 vmsb csupomona edu , vmsb csupomona edu writes today \( 4 14 \) cubs activated p mike harkey dl , move make room harkey \? also , delino deshields john wetteland expos dl \? thanks anyone give info ! ken cal poly , pomona wetteland dl effective march 26 something like rick cubs sent iowa make room harkey jeff eastman anl gov
jerry shel isc br com \( gerald \) subject seeking moe berg reference info organization olivetti north america \( , ct \) lines 23 article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu \( david tate \) writes seem misplaced baseball bibliography posted recently \( 's happens split heap disorganized files one machine among two others \) could kind soul repost bibliography , mail copy \? also , particular , colleague mine looking information find moe berg , catcher linguist ww2 references \( anecdotes , matter \) would appreciated dave believe si depth article moe ago remember article revealed new facts regarding secretive moe si subscription expired past february , second two years received therefore guess article appeared sometime 1991 92 anyone else definitive date si article \? jerry
jerry shel isc br com \( gerald \) subject 1964 phillies deja vu \? keywords phillies organization olivetti north america \( , ct \) lines 21 article 1993apr14 cabell vcu edu csc2imd cabell vcu edu \( ian derby \) writes reading local paper today , found phillies started 1964 season 10 2 old 1964 , 've heard many talk serious choke job phillies season ahead cardinals 15 games season mid august managed lose bunch cardinals took division 15 ! ! ! games ahead lost hope season much different strictly memory , think phillies something like ten games 12 go , lost 10 row , 11 last 12 lose cardinals seems impossible , thats remember also felt time johnny callison phillies lost mvp product jerry p 1964 , single team 8 pennant divisions
jerry shel isc br com \( gerald \) subject orioles trivia organization olivetti north america \( , ct \) lines 20 article 1993apr14 hpcvaac cv hp com paula koufax cv hp com \( paul andresen \) writes article 1993apr13 galileo cc rochester edu , sparky balsa lle rochester edu \( michael mueller \) writes hi , anyone know 4 pitchers 1961 orioles referred corp young \? steve barber 22 18 12 chuck 23 15 9 jack fisher 22 10 13 milt pappas 22 13 9 list brings mind possible worst trade since babe , e , milt pappas frank robinson , think 1965 \? robinson proceeded win triple crown 1966 may beaten '67 injured slide second collided mighty al \( \) jerry
wynblatt sbgrad5 cs sunysb edu \( michael wynblatt \) subject dumb fans \( indians woofing \) keywords woofing nntp posting host sbgrad5 organization state university new york stony brook lines 22 article 795 ohstpy mps ohio state edu ohstpy mps ohio state edu writes mean like fans \? listened anytime open lines fans call \? talk clueless idiots ! broadcasters bad jl new york talk shows awful regard people constantly calling wfan wabc \( stuff like \) thinking , n't yankees trade silvestri seattle ken griffey jr randy johnson , would really help team think yankees get roger clemens \? show hosts pretty good handling guys , 's still annoying best one end one show , caller started thinking , n't yankees trade host hung ! michael
wynblatt sbgrad5 cs sunysb edu \( michael wynblatt \) subject tigers keywords tigers nntp posting host sbgrad5 organization state university new york stony brook lines 15 article 93104 bitnet ryan bitnet writes think detroit tigers greatest baseball organization time shameless woofing deleted behalf rest us tiger fans , shameless woofing try keep minimum , win game day , sometimes 's hard control see phillies fans \) michael
watson ibm com \( kenneth j \) subject missing subject header reply bones ibm com \( kenneth j \) disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host bones ibm com organization ibm east subject torre worst manager \? lines 39 article 93095 hydra gatech edu , gt7469a prism gatech edu \( brian r landmann \) writes joe torre worst manager baseball anyone n't see sunday 's game , right hander pitching decides bench lankform , left handed hitter play jordan gilkey , right handers 's lankford minor injury couple games day day available later , ninth inning bases loaded two outs puts lankford , 300 hitter power pinch runner uses luis alicea , 250 hitter power pinch hitter hell thinking see earlier game interview acquiring mark whiten commented fortunate cardinals get whiten whiten would regular even though meant gilkey would hurt , torre said liked gilkey coming bench gilkey hit 300 last year , start , guy would starting every team league beginning interview torre also said lankford one outfield guy 's matter guess jordan eventually end odd man due low base percentage whiten great acquisition decent offense great defense n't worry , gilkey starting soon jordan whiten displays extended period low offensive output
west esd dl nec com \( mike west \) subject dean palmer hurt \? nntp posting host swan esd dl nec com organization engineering support division , nec america , inc x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 14 edward \( edo casbah acns nwu edu \) wrote think dean got hit pitched ball night got pinch hit n't play baltimore tonight whats \? hurt \? please tell 's got hit elbow fernando pitch arm elbow wrist \( something like \) took x rays arm nothing damaged missed last game orioles , suppose ready next game hope helps mike west west esd dl nec com
demers cs ucsd edu \( david demers \) subject scoring runs notes jays vs indians series distribution na organization cse dept , uc san diego lines 23 nntp posting host beowulf ucsd edu article blue cis pitt edu , dtate pitt edu \( david tate \) writes uh , right also forgot ca n't get rbi \( barring hr \) nobody base fraction runs come solo hr \? actually , padres year far 's 23 5th league hrs , solo shots pythagorean projection puts 360 winning percentage 58 104 need pitching help , fast ! good news , though , hurst throwing w pain threw 80 pitches yesterday back couple weeks maybe trade yankees militello dave dave demers demers cs ucsd edu computer science engineering 0114 demers cs ucsd bitnet uc san diego ! ucsd ! cs ! demers la jolla , ca 92093 0114 \( 619 \) 534 0688 , 8187 , fax \( 619 \) 534 7029
albnyvms bitnet subject pleasant yankee surprises reply albnyvms bitnet organization university albany , suny lines 89 article 120399 netnews upenn edu , sepinwal mail sas upenn edu \( alan sepinwall \) writes pleasant \( pleasant \) surprises 1993 edition bronx bombers far first , pleasant 1 \) spike owen spring training , guy looking like second coming mike , even worse hitting guy third major leagues ba , 's ranked pretty high total hits runs scored know 's still early season , pat kelly \( minute \) provided lot spark bottom order 's given big guys \( mattingly , tartabull , o'neill \) plenty rbi opportunities let 's hope keeps 2 \) pat kelly guy finally showing ability led stick michael label star 90s would n't go far , kelly looks infinitely improved bat \( guess tips took boggs spring training really paid huh ! thought boggs would never anything help anybody besides ! \) glove , like always , terrific \( mattingly comprise best defensive right side infield baseball imho \) 3 \) paul o'neill get rid roberto kelly , partly much pressure ny next barry bonds \( wo n't cincy , either \) , partly real tendency give second half year felt could 've gotten o'neill well , far , o'neill turning fine looks like able duplicate \( surpass \) mel hall 's numbers last year , keeps opposing pitchers pitching around tartabull , buck would play lefties see ! 4 \) wickman friend made comparison wickman jack morris never impressive stats always find way win \( although morris seems losing ability \) figured wickman would least important part steve sax trade \( best trade since got ruth guy \) , maybe winding good middle reliever like 've seen far n't pitch pretty , gets job done 5 \) key 's going \? key supposed provide rotation stability \( know , shore left side , provide experience , get maybe 15 wins \) , guy dominating everybody faces ! needs maddux cone \( 0 2 \) \? 'll take key day , pleasant surprises 1 \) spike owen sure , 's hitting like crazy , guy cannot field save life ! said brought provide defense \? velarde , stankiewicz , even silvestri better defensively owen remember 's still early look offense tail , defense improve \( hopefully \) rep heard either last year , last 5 years , something like third highest fielding percentage among major league shortstops behind c r tony \( i'm gonna help sorry mets team \) fernandez agree though looked impressive field thus far 2 \) tartabull book tartabull , keep healthy 'll produce well , n't done much far sure 's hit homers , solo shots , n't gotten big rbis cleanup man supposed give , slow start last year \( got dl , \) turned one man wrecking crew late year , 'll see 3 \) bullpen ugh ! ! ! ! ! happened \? supposed one solid pens majors ! meanwhile , pen already blown three saves \( maybe n't checked \) great howe farr lefty righty tandem \? farr 's era 20s , howe 's infinite \( n't think thing possible , \) hopefully , 'll get acts together , else buck 's gonna burn starters fear bullpen 'll blow lead immortal words scooter , holy cow , seaver ! johnny key guy pitch , ca n't \? see series ! alan
dak988s vma smsu edu subject torre worst manager \? organization southwest mo state univ lines 15 nntp posting host vma smsu edu x newsreader nnr vm 1 3 2 article 93095 hydra gatech edu gt7469a prism gatech edu \( brian r landmann \) writes joe torre worst manager baseball brian , distressed cardinal fan hal mcrae worst manager baseball 've never seen guy waste talent like one best raw talent staffs league , 's still finding way lose 'll surprised makes next 2 weeks , unless drastic improvement made even frustrated royals fan , darin j dak988s vma smsu edu
tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) subject dave kingman hall fame organization cornell univ cs dept , ithaca ny 14853 lines 17 article kkk news udel edu philly ravel udel edu \( robert c hite \) writes real \? many gold gloves ozzie smith \? guy hung around hit 30 homers year 15 years , would n't given hall \? defense important \? frankly , offense defense equally important pitcher 80 defense primary role every player offense even shortstops bigger part offensive game defensive game \( might much part offense , 's another issue \) said , think smith yount deserve hof hit pretty well addition defense cheers , valentine
erics netcom com \( eric smith \) subject 1964 phillies deja vu \? keywords phillies organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 12 jerry shel isc br com \( gerald \) writes p 1964 , single team 8 pennant divisions make ten , eight mets astros joined n l 1962 eric smith erics netcom com erics infoserv com ci 70262 , 3610
tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) subject old predictions laugh organization cornell univ cs dept , ithaca ny 14853 lines 12 article news udel edu philly ravel udel edu \( robert c hite \) writes dead wrong ! last time checked , jim fregosi still managing phillies , quite fine job thank best record baseball 8 1 look , asshole , got confused somebody else n't flame , would appreciate extended courtesy , n't know everything world surprise \? valentine
thf2 kimbark uchicago edu \( ted frank \) subject jewish baseball players \? article midway 1993apr15 reply thf2 midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 32 article 1qkkodinn5f5 jhunix hcf jhu edu pablo jhunix hcf jhu edu \( pablo iglesias \) writes article 15apr93 14691229 0062 lafibm lafayette edu vb30 lafibm lafayette edu \( vb30 \) writes wondering friend talking day , \( reason \) trying come names jewish baseball players , past present n't able come much , except sandy koufax , \( somebody \) stankowitz , maybe john lowenstein anyone come know sounds pretty lame racking brains , humor us thanks help hank greenberg would famous , jewish faith actually affected play \( missing late season world series games yom kippur \) jewish hof'er rod carew \( converted \) lowenstein jewish , well montana 's representative major leagues undeserving cy young award winner steve stone jewish stone , koufax , ken \( \? might wrong pitcher , i'm thinking one threw hitter al nl \) , big ed , 's quite starting rotation moe berg catch harry , 3b chance infield stanky jewish \? dave cohen kinda misinterpretation \? whatever , n't look like stuck around majors long ted frank thf2 kimbark uchicago edu i'm sorry , card says moops u c law school standard disclaimers
g waugaman nac enet dec com \( glenn r waugaman \) subject 've found secret ! article nntpd 1993apr15 organization digital equipment corporation lines 23 article 1993apr15 cs cornell edu , tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) writes red sox first place \? eight games season , already two wins clemens viola clemens starts tonight , three days rest 's \? sox going four man rotation \? hesketh used relief last night \? clemens going normal four days' rest \( last pitched saturday \) hesketh pitched one inning yesterday afternoon , first outing since aborted 1 1 3 inning start 6 days , plenty rested go expected turn saturday , 5th starter good thing , course 'd like see well managed four man rotation team glenn waugaman digital equipment corporation , g waugaman nac enet dec com
sepinwal mail sas upenn edu \( alan sepinwall \) subject jewish baseball players \? article netnews organization university pennsylvania , school arts sciences lines 18 nntp posting host mail sas upenn edu article 15apr93 14691229 0062 lafibm lafayette edu vb30 lafibm lafayette edu \( vb30 \) writes wondering friend talking day , \( reason \) trying come names jewish baseball players , past present n't able come much , except sandy koufax , \( somebody \) stankowitz , 's stankiewicz , stankowitz , 's jewish 's polish \( way , correct pronunciation according stanky , kev itch get wrong \) maybe john lowenstein anyone come know sounds pretty lame racking brains , humor us thanks help jewish ballplayer think ron blomberg , best known first dh appear major league ballgame alan
ingres com \( bruce \) subject jewish baseball players \? article pony 1993apr15 organization ingres corporation , subsidiary ask group , inc lines 12 article 15apr93 14691229 0062 lafibm lafayette edu vb30 lafibm lafayette edu \( vb30 \) writes wondering friend talking day , \( reason \) trying come names jewish baseball players , past present n't able come much , except sandy koufax , \( somebody \) stankowitz , maybe john lowenstein anyone come know sounds pretty lame racking brains , humor us thanks help hank greenberg , sid gordon , ron blomberg guess goes sublime ridiculous
steven advtech uswest com \( steve novak \) subject old predictions laugh article advtech 1993apr15 organization u west advanced technologies lines 25 nntp posting host advtech uswest com \( edward ted fischer \) writes \( robert c hite \) writes dead wrong ! last time checked , jim fregosi still managing phillies , quite fine job thank best record baseball 8 1 look , asshole , got confused somebody else n't flame , would appreciate extended courtesy problem \? hite 's post n't flame correction error reply flame , n't know everything world surprise \? least steve novak ban bomb ! ban pope ! ! steven advtech uswest com
paula koufax cv hp com \( paul andresen \) subject braves pitching updatedir nntp posting host koufax cv hp com organization hewlett packard company , corvallis , oregon usa lines 24 article 1993apr15 adobe com , snichols adobe com \( sherri nichols \) writes article 1993apr14 pts mot com pts mot com writes certainly passes common sense test , statistical evidence say percent defense pitching percent fielding \? yet wish 's much difficult tease apart tease apart scoring runs preventing runs thus , come one true baseball things , along many others never separated almost everything baseball situational allows us carry arguments everything could explained balanced statistical basis , none wonder mystery would left might resort going ballyard enjoy game paul , feeling little anti today stretch farm animal beyond natural length paula koufax cv hp com paul andresen hewlett packard \( 503 \) 750 3511 home 3006 nw mckinley corvallis , 97330 \( 503 \) 752 8424 sabr member since 1979
paula koufax cv hp com \( paul andresen \) subject true story way go omar keywords mariners , grand slam , omar vizquel nntp posting host koufax cv hp com organization hewlett packard company , corvallis , oregon usa lines 23 article 1993apr14 esca com , vigil esca com \( sandra vigil \) writes yesterday , april 14th , friend discussing theory put forth local sports radio station personality commissioner less baseball owners snuck live ball years baseball games effort increase home run numbers attract fans 's always possible , case , think blatant discrimination going clearly allowing opposition use pre 1920 baseballs dodgers well , guess stepped plate first career grand slam last night jays \? none boy truly sight behold almost impressive also got intentional walk stretch farm animal beyond natural length paula koufax cv hp com paul andresen hewlett packard \( 503 \) 750 3511 home 3006 nw mckinley corvallis , 97330 \( 503 \) 752 8424 sabr member since 1979
hull cs jhu edu \( ! \) subject america 's team \? organization creative dept , 's house underwear lines 23 kingoz camelot bradley edu \( orin roth \) writes well , officially 's braves least started winning still , officially \? , \? receive label \? understanding ted turner \( owner braves \) started running tv station nationwide , started running team 's games nationwide tv station , team 's , team \( least , time \) whose games could seen across america , wor nationwide beautiful , mets games wor wgn chicago boston two \( least , east coast \) n't know many cubs sox sox games show cs jhu edu 'll i'm dead al yankovic get , laid back attitude sonny bird josh ,
kkeach pomona claremont edu subject super tough baseball trivia reply kkeach pomona claremont edu organization pomona college lines 37 article 1993apr17 ncar ucar edu , rsf atd ucar edu \( anthony michael jivoin \) writes bruce video glory days , born usa album , show two quick shots baseball game television bar bruce e street band playing name teams \? stadium \? pitcher \? two batters go swinging \? also end video bruce throwing wooden strike zone last pitch young boy lines base hit center bruce kid walk field kid asks today bruce mentions team playing certain player got bottom ninth name player team ! sandiego anyone gets 'll impressed anthony jivoin national center atmospheric research rsf atd p box 3000 boulder , co 80307
jtchern ocf berkeley edu \( joseph hernandez \) subject mlb standings scores sat , apr 17th , 1993 organization jtc enterprises sports division \( major league baseball dept \) lines 73 distribution world nntp posting host monsoon berkeley edu keywords mlb , 04 17 mlb standings scores , april 17th , 1993 \( including yesterday 's games \) national west lost pct gb last 10 streak home road san francisco giants 07 04 636 6 4 2 04 01 03 03 houston astros 06 04 600 0 5 6 4 1 01 03 05 01 atlanta braves 06 06 500 1 5 5 5 lost 3 04 03 03 02 los angeles dodgers 04 07 364 3 0 4 6 1 01 03 03 04 colorado rockies 03 06 333 3 0 3 6 lost 1 03 03 00 03 san diego padres 03 07 300 3 5 3 7 1 01 04 02 03 cincinnati reds 02 08 200 4 5 2 8 lost 4 01 03 01 05 national east philadelphia phillies 08 02 800 8 2 lost 1 05 01 03 01 pittsburgh pirates 07 03 700 1 0 7 3 lost 1 03 02 04 01 st louis cardinals 07 03 700 1 0 7 3 lost 1 04 02 03 01 new york mets 05 04 556 2 5 5 4 1 02 03 03 01 chicago cubs 05 05 500 3 0 5 5 2 02 02 03 03 montreal expos 05 05 500 3 0 5 5 2 02 02 03 03 florida marlins 03 07 300 5 0 3 7 lost 1 02 04 01 03 american west lost pct gb last 10 streak home road texas rangers 06 03 667 6 3 lost 2 04 02 02 01 california angels 05 03 625 0 5 5 3 lost 1 03 02 02 01 chicago white sox 05 04 556 1 0 5 4 2 02 03 03 01 minnesota twins 05 04 556 1 0 5 4 1 02 02 03 02 oakland athletics 04 04 500 1 5 4 4 lost 2 04 02 00 02 seattle mariners 04 05 444 2 0 4 5 lost 2 03 02 01 03 kansas city royals 02 08 200 4 5 2 8 lost 1 01 05 01 03 american east boston red sox 07 03 700 7 3 lost 1 03 01 04 02 new york yankees 06 04 600 1 0 6 4 1 03 01 03 03 detroit tigers 05 04 556 1 5 5 4 3 03 00 02 04 toronto blue jays 05 04 556 1 5 5 4 lost 1 04 02 01 02 cleveland indians 04 06 400 3 0 4 6 1 03 01 01 05 baltimore orioles 03 06 333 3 5 3 6 2 01 02 02 04 milwaukee brewers 02 05 286 3 5 2 5 lost 4 00 02 02 03 yesterday's scores \( idle teams listed alphabetical order \) national league american league new york mets 3 chicago white sox 9 cincinnati reds 1 boston red sox 4 florida marlins 3 california angels 1 houston astros 9 baltimore orioles 4 philadelphia phillies 1 kansas city royals 3 chicago cubs 3 minnesota twins 4 \( 10 \) colorado rockies 2 seattle mariners 0 montreal expos 3 detroit tigers 5 pittsburgh pirates 4 toronto blue jays 1 los angeles dodgers 7 cleveland indians 13 atlanta braves 0 texas rangers 3 san francisco giants 1 new york yankees 5 st louis cardinals 1 oakland athletics ppd san diego padres 5 milwaukee brewers rain joseph hernandez rams lakers jtchern ocf berkeley edu kings dodgers raiders jtcent soda berkeley edu angels clippers
roger crux princeton edu \( roger lustig \) subject jewish baseball players \? originator news nimaster nntp posting host crux princeton edu reply roger astro princeton edu \( roger lustig \) organization princeton university lines 16 article 1993apr16 scott skidmore edu jrogoff scott skidmore edu \( jay rogoff \) writes book find sale catalogues occasionally called jewish baseball stars , baseball peter compiled pretty definitive list jewish ballplayers bigs wish n't sold copy jewish baseball stars 's short shelf \( e , one top toilet tank \) special writing books astonishingly awful every sportswriting cliche taken nth degree mangled 's funny author , think roger
organization penn state university psuvm psu edu subject vs pirates boi hp com netnews upenn edu 1993apr17 1 ulkyvx louisville edu lines 17 hate burden bad news , think time ! \) phillies usually play either 7 05 p 7 35 p eastern time weekdays sundays time usually 1 35 p eastern time boise idaho idaho part mountain time zone part pacific time zone times given mountain time zone starts please check map case wrong certain boise mountain time zone thanks listening !
roger crux princeton edu \( roger lustig \) subject jewish broadcasters \( jewish baseball players \? \) originator news nimaster nntp posting host crux princeton edu reply roger astro princeton edu \( roger lustig \) organization princeton university lines 33 article hh8 unix amherst edu unix amherst edu \( daniel \) writes roger lustig \( roger crux princeton edu \) wrote article 1993apr16 1 acad drake edu sbp002 acad drake edu writes article world std com , eastgate world std com \( mark bernstein \) writes matter , many gentleman press box jewish \? jewish sportscaster comes mind steve williams \( \? \) , phillies show philadelphia 80s howard one comes mind gee , think len berman 's jewish \? steve stone wgn cubs \? already got pitchers , overrated , jewish tony \( maury 's dad \) washington post \? probably shirley p still alive \? wondering roger danny
prg mgweed ! mgwhiz att com \( phil \) subject let 's talk phillies organization information systems lines 33 article 1993apr16 adobe com , snichols adobe com \( sherri nichols \) writes article 1993apr15 leland stanford edu leland stanford edu \( emery ethan chen \) writes one phrase ! ! ! ! ! thanks perhaps 's time start rec sport baseball graffiti , go yell insults leave rest us peace sherri nichols snichols adobe com well sherri , 'd agree except sense spew front group adults try edit newsgroup feed one local elementary schools , group students love baseball learning use computers , i'm telling , 's gotten point n't even edit files anymore , read throw trash thanks people think 's wonderful include swear word two signature files , 's really nice read whole article toss sig n't get wrong , know words , \( 've even made ! \) would n't able edit \) n't seem place , public forum , spew foul language , sorry thanks people keep mind , might decent , young people , interested baseball computers reading newsgroup enjoy articles phil
jtchern ocf berkeley edu \( joseph hernandez \) subject what's scores \? organization jtc enterprises sports division \( major league baseball dept \) lines 38 nntp posting host monsoon berkeley edu article senator bedfellow mit edu cmk athena mit edu \( charles kozierok \) writes article 1993apr17 news yale edu \( sean garrison \) writes stuff inning scores deleted exact time see message even results game necessary , thanks mr hernandez posts daily standings results every day supposed take compliment put \? wondering service entire baseball world usenet , especially east coast ca n't get final scores west coast games newspapers late tv newscasts helpful fans countries either receive weekly scores updates week also , many requested kind service previously available bbs 's pay news services way , mine free charge copyright restrictions want send updates scores , set private mailing list use remember post final scores updated standings day rec sport baseball newsgroup , everything done private e mail currently , 986 people mailing list branches mailing lists available many others list grows average 35 people day people usenet really n't want see postings rec sport baseball daily basis , please let know response overwhelming posts , wo n't anymore thanks time joseph hernandez joseph hernandez rams lakers jtchern ocf berkeley edu kings dodgers raiders jtcent soda berkeley edu angels clippers
sepinwal mail sas upenn edu \( alan sepinwall \) subject america 's team \? organization university pennsylvania , school arts sciences lines 22 nntp posting host mail sas upenn edu article kingoz camelot kingoz camelot bradley edu \( orin roth \) writes well , officially 's braves least started winning still , officially \? , \? receive label \? probably everyone \( , everyone cable \) watch every braves game team games broadcast nationwide n't like local team , n't local team , braves kind become local team watch every day i'm outta like vladimir ! alan 's \? ice happens water gets cold \? kent happens people get sexually frustrated val kilmer , real genius
en ecn purdue edu \( jeffery \) subject sandberg update wo n't long ! ! ! organization purdue university engineering computer network distribution na lines 21 hi fans \( interested \) todays chicago tribune written today regards ryne sandberg ryne sandberg ahead schedule recovery broken left hand could back lineup may 1 , manager jim lefebvre said friday doctors cleared sandberg swing padded bat ball hand '' i'm surprised rehabilitation moved , '' said lefebvre '' 's fast healer , n't like disabled list 's running since hurt march 5 best shape life may 1 target date getting back lineup hold hats cub fans later information presents jeffery
crux1 cit cornell edu \( michael \) subject keep score like officials \? nntp posting host crux1 cit cornell edu organization cornell university lines 15 hello , 'd like learn keep score watch ball games using official scoring methods get instructions use \? appreciate , mike 's law always takes michael wilson longer think , even crux1 cit cornell edu take account 's law douglas
en ecn purdue edu \( jeffery \) subject correction organization purdue university engineering computer network distribution na lines 13 made mistake posted article fighting food poisoning last 24 hours second paragraph state following doctors cleared sandberg swing padded bat ball tee catch ball hand sorry error , n't know posting jeffery
addison leland stanford edu \( brett rogers \) subject defensive averages 1988 1992 shortstop organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa lines 12 article steph pegasus cs uiuc edu steph pegasus cs uiuc edu \( dale stephenson \) writes smith , ozzie 742 717 697 672 664 0 701 wizard 's 1988 second highest year ever still good , n't like way numbers declined every year years may defensive liability 's rich ozzie smith defensive liability brett rogers addison leland stanford edu
jplee cymbal calpoly edu \( jason lee \) subject surgery hal morris organization california polytechnic state university , san luis obispo lines 17 symantec com \( jimmy kuo \) strike anyone else silly impose 3 game suspension morris \? let 's see expect back june 15th many games play june 15th \? take dl 3 games june 15th would lot meaningful suspension went effect number games came back well , either way , reds play man 3 days jason lee jplee oboe calpoly edu jlee cash busfac calpoly edu giants e pi 1 0 beautiful equation mathematics magic sad words tongue pen , saddest number might john greenleaf whittier 153
erics netcom com \( eric smith \) subject america 's team \? organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 20 kingoz camelot bradley edu \( orin roth \) writes well , guess america loves underdogs every year , matter talent predictions , never \( close never possible \) win anything years , losing mounted , america fallen love perennial losers cubs fans chicago teams worldwide cubs fans worldwide teams division combined aura excitement surrounds cubs beginning season like one else \( including ws champs \) must eternal hope actually admired spirit fan cubs opener several years ago held sign said wait till next year eric smith threatened ! president erics netcom com united states 'd investigate ! 's erics infoserv com difference \? i'm comedian united states ! ci 70262 , 3610 jerry seinfeld
camelot bradley edu \( richard \) subject royals nntp posting host camelot bradley edu organization bradley university distribution na lines 20 randall moose randall informix com \( randall rhea \) writes royals darkness void time play , shame descends upon land like cold front canada humiliation lived shall ever live utterly completely doomed , guess 're ok oh , lighten might actually finish last , believe n't happened since second season 1970 never mind 0 2 16 50 era , gardner 7 50 , main recent \( lind , mcreynolds , jose \) averaging 210 , david cone 0 2 \( kc joining mets several years ago \) , hitting sucks , pitching collapsed , 've one game home 've games first ten games last year , brian mcrae actually batting line ! rich
tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) subject defensive averages 1988 1992 shortstop organization cornell univ cs dept , ithaca ny 14853 lines 13 article 1993apr17 8229 leland stanford edu addison leland stanford edu \( brett rogers \) writes article steph pegasus cs uiuc edu steph pegasus cs uiuc edu \( dale stephenson \) writes smith , ozzie 742 717 697 672 664 0 701 wizard 's 1988 second highest year ever still good , n't like way numbers declined every year years may defensive liability 's rich ozzie smith defensive liability \? brooks robinson defensive liability , ted williams weak hitter even great players decline age valentine
brock nextwork rose hulman edu \( bradley w brock \) subject tribune times organization computer science department rose hulman lines 20 reply brock nextwork rose hulman edu \( bradley w brock \) nntp posting host 1 nextwork rose hulman edu article unix amherst edu unix amherst edu \( daniel \) writes pjtier01 ulkyvx louisville edu wrote chicago tribune baseball coverage good \? new york times daily coverage boxscores \? n't know tribune times daily coverage boxscores course , special emphasis yankees mets beware original poster looks louisville , chances louisville gets edition nytimes printed chicago midwest edition boxscores monday \( sunday \) extremely sports section \( game summaries , mostly color stories \) bradley w brock , department mathematics rose hulman institute technology resist evil love enemies brock nextwork rose hulman edu nazarene carpenter
thf2 kimbark uchicago edu \( ted frank \) subject ozzie smith defensive liability \? reply thf2 midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 18 article 1993apr17 8229 leland stanford edu addison leland stanford edu \( brett rogers \) writes article steph pegasus cs uiuc edu steph pegasus cs uiuc edu \( dale stephenson \) writes smith , ozzie 742 717 697 672 664 0 701 wizard 's 1988 second highest year ever still good , n't like way numbers declined every year years may defensive liability 's rich ozzie smith defensive liability \? expect remain best shortstop game reaches seventy third birthday , something \? strange concept forty one year old ozzie smith might defensive liability 1996 \? ted frank thf2 kimbark uchicago edu i'm sorry , card says moops u c law school standard disclaimers
pjtier01 ulkyvx louisville edu subject vs pirates lines 28 nntp posting host ulkyvx louisville edu organization university louisville mlb pit phi monday , 5 10 pittsburg philadelphia \( 5 35 pm \) tuesday , 5 11 pittsburg philadelphia \( 5 35 pm \) wednesday , 5 12 pittsburg philadelphia \( 5 35 pm \) friday , 6 25 philadelphia pittsburg \( 5 35 pm \) saturday , 6 26 philadelphia pittsburg \( 5 05 pm \) sunday , 6 27 philadelphia pittsburg \( 11 35 \) friday , 7 30 pittsburg philadelphia \( 5 35 pm \) saturday , 7 31 pittsburg philadelphia \( 5 05 pm \) sunday , 8 1 pittsburg philadelphia \( 11 35 \) monday , 9 27 philadelphia pittsburg \( 5 35 pm \) tuesday , 9 28 philadelphia pittsburg \( 5 35 pm \) wednesday , 9 29 philadelphia pittsburg \( 5 35 pm \) thursday , 9 30 philadelphia pittsburg \( 5 35 pm \) times correct \? \? seem 2 hrs ahead usual two teams origin first message boise , central time p tierney whoops ! meant mountain time p tierney
roger crux princeton edu \( roger lustig \) subject defensive averages 1988 1992 shortstop originator news nimaster nntp posting host crux princeton edu reply roger astro princeton edu \( roger lustig \) organization princeton university lines 25 article 1993apr17 8229 leland stanford edu addison leland stanford edu \( brett rogers \) writes article steph pegasus cs uiuc edu steph pegasus cs uiuc edu \( dale stephenson \) writes smith , ozzie 742 717 697 672 664 0 701 wizard 's 1988 second highest year ever still good , n't like way numbers declined every year years may defensive liability 's rich ozzie smith defensive liability \? suppose 's immune time \? 's 37 years 'll 40 n't get many grounders used , get fewer still legs go , every human far remember willie mays defensive liability end career ditto mickey mantle ditto everyone else played late 30 's roger brett rogers addison leland stanford edu
cmk athena mit edu \( charles kozierok \) subject what's scores \? organization massachusetts institute technology lines 42 nntp posting host electric monk mit edu article agate berkeley edu jtchern ocf berkeley edu \( joseph hernandez \) writes article senator bedfellow mit edu cmk athena mit edu \( charles kozierok \) writes article 1993apr17 news yale edu \( sean garrison \) writes stuff inning scores deleted exact time see message even results game necessary , thanks mr hernandez posts daily standings results every day supposed take compliment put \? wondering meant entirely , 100 , compliment service entire baseball world usenet , especially east coast ca n't get final scores west coast games newspapers late tv newscasts helpful fans countries either receive weekly scores updates week also , many requested kind service previously available bbs 's pay news services way , mine free charge copyright restrictions trying criticize service fact , trying encourage others use n't personally use , i'm sure others , point posting need individuals duplicate , ad hoc fashion , already organized want send updates scores , set private mailing list use remember post final scores updated standings day rec sport baseball newsgroup , everything done private e mail currently , 986 people mailing list branches mailing lists available many others list grows average 35 people day one person , , , great idea 100 's keep good work , joseph charles
pjtier01 ulkyvx louisville edu subject america 's team \? lines 18 nntp posting host ulkyvx louisville edu organization university louisville article kingoz camelot , kingoz camelot bradley edu \( orin roth \) writes well , officially 's braves least started winning still , officially \? , \? receive label \? team , repeat , team , america 's team diverse country 26 mlb teams \( 2 north \) one team america 's would teams belong \? happen \? well , teams receive success \( cowboys \) , national exposure \( cubs \) , \( braves \) successful advertising campaigns harry caray , ted turner , amd dupe people thinking representative teams hip people watch tv buy products arrogant local fans adapt think team one america comes dollars egos p tierney
hpcc01 corp hp com \( kim \) subject kevin rogers organization hp corporate notes server lines 14 hpcc01 rec sport baseball pjtier01 ulkyvx louisville edu 12 23 pm apr 14 , 1993 's kevin rogers san francisco \? \? thought slated fifth starter , 's gotten relief going four starters , someone else fifth \? thanks , p tierney giant 's five man rotation john , trevor wilson , bill swift , jeff , bud black dave burba black put 15 day disables dave burba take starts
warped cs montana edu \( doug dolven \) subject mel hall organization cs lines 9 anyone heard anything mel hall season \? 'd heard n't yankees happened \? doug dolven doug dolven warped cs montana edu oscs montana edu
virginia edu \( todd karlin \) subject mets rapists ! ! organization university virginia lines 34 writes new book mets talks like rape little girls games sick jerks ! ! ! max book bob klapisch \( spelling \? \) , worst team money buy \? , would n't give book , anything value whatsoever klapisch wrote book make money \( obviously \) sensational literature going sell lot better usually writes papers i'm calling liar , proof met player raped little girl game \( let alone regular basis \) would jail , shea people know press like new york , probably cut throat part u keith hernandez said well espn couple days ago , would much rather mention clubhouse fight , two run homer ninth win game read klapisch 's news columns regularly , know accused enjoys \( hopefully professional reasons \) news story , even n't one far confrontation bobby bonilla days ago , almost totally blame bonilla matter member press , matter much individual might , give ballplayer right threaten journalist personally , always thought beat writer always follows club around report news , looking degrade team n't know whether blame klapisch , may way keep job new york
virginia edu \( todd karlin \) subject mel hall organization university virginia lines 10 warped cs montana edu writes anyone heard anything mel hall season \? 'd heard n't yankees happened \? doug dolven japan , think
mike cunixf cc columbia edu \( michael chen \) subject mel hall nntp posting host cunixf cc columbia edu reply mike cunixf cc columbia edu \( michael chen \) organization columbia university lines 17 article 1993apr17 coe montana edu warped cs montana edu \( doug dolven \) writes anyone heard anything mel hall season \? 'd heard n't yankees happened \? doug dolven doug dolven warped cs montana edu oscs montana edu mel hall signed japanese team mike mike columbia edu
subject braves pitching updatedir grabiner math harvard edu \( david grabiner \) organization etc organization nntp posting host boucher harvard edu reply drw3l delmarva evsc virginia edu 's message fri , 16 apr 1993 16 19 23 gmt lines 41 article murdoch acc virginia edu , david robert walker writes article 8994 blue cis pitt edu traven pitt edu \( neal traven \) writes one also separate offense batting baserunning , split probably somewhere around 49 5 0 5 'd give baserunning little credit , maybe 45 5 , even 40 10 give team roberto alomar team john oleruds identical batting stats \( would n't unreasonable \) , even n't let roberto steal single base , 'll score lot oleruds going first third often \( offense , gordon \) would n't give baserunning much value effect clear , effects well olerud hits double , runner first score alomar legs extra base onto hit gap , runner first may need hold third thus olerud 's doubles advancement value alomar 's \( course , alomar likely score hitting double \) another reason give much extra value baserunning runs created formulas work fast slow teams team 1950 's ran much , teams certainly faster players others still , current runs created formulas work well 1950 's teams bill james gives 1955 1958 senators example used harmon regularly pinch runner , 1957 , stole 13 bases 38 times caught stealing yet scored slightly runs predicted runs created david grabiner , grabiner zariski harvard edu sorry , number dialed imaginary please rotate phone 90 degrees try disclaimer speak one one speaks
rjh allegra att com \( robert holt \) subject dave kingman hall fame keywords hall fame , winfield , kingman , murray , joe lundy , \) organization bell laboratories , murray hill , nj distribution na lines 14 article netcom com mss netcom com \( mark singer \) writes i'm kingman fan thought 'd point 's player history five three hr games joe carter four eddie murray three mccovey gehrig also three ruth , mays , foxx dawson two johnny mize six three hr games , current record bob holt rjh allegra att com
\( sean garrison \) subject fenway gif nntp posting host berkeley kstar node net yale edu organization yale university lines 11 'd love see shea stadium gif sean behind bag ! vin scully
\( sean garrison \) subject what's scores \? nntp posting host berkeley kstar node net yale edu organization yale university lines 23 article agate berkeley edu , jtchern ocf berkeley edu \( joseph hernandez \) wrote people usenet really n't want see postings rec sport baseball daily basis , please let know response overwhelming posts , wo n't anymore thanks time joseph hernandez mr hernandez apologize misunderstanding explained know essential fans get scores , cannot get elsewhere problem , posting scores games completed however , like said earlier , n't think necessity post scores middle games , like others come practice sean
rjh allegra att com \( robert holt \) subject time best players organization bell laboratories , murray hill , nj lines 78 article 1993apr15 ns1 cc lehigh edu ns1 cc lehigh edu \( john stephen randolph \) writes article 1993apr13 bsu ucs , 00mbstultz leo bsuvc bsu edu writes 've recently working project determine greatest players respective sources total baseball , historical abstract , ballplayers \( biography \) , word mouth , \( biased \) opinions feel free comment , suggest , flame \( whatever \) tried objective possible , using statistical data time 's sake \( judged rel ba , adj ops , total average , fielding range runs , total player rating \( total baseball \) , stolen bases \( curiosity 's sake \) , 150 g , years played mvp 3b 1 \) mike schmidt 2 \) ed matthews one eddie mathews ! 3 \) george brett 4 \) wade boggs 5 \) ron santo 6 \) brooks robinson 7 \) frank baker 8 \) darrell evans 9 \) pie 10 \) ray dandridge brooks 6 \? think would least ahead ron santo small advantage fielding ability comes nowhere near making large difference hitting average seasons , using combined average 656 \( ab bb \) per 162 games years ab h r 2b 3b hr rbi tb bb avg obp slg ops santo 14 10 577 160 81 26 5 24 94 268 79 277 366 464 830 robinson 17 55 607 162 70 27 4 15 77 243 49 267 325 401 726 fielding , , per 162 games third , years p dp e pct santo 13 15 149 348 30 24 954 robinson 17 72 152 350 35 15 971 even robinson 's extra 3 putouts , 2 assists , 5 dps taken mean responsible 10 outs field , n't make extra 28 outs made plate , mention fewer total bases difference 104 ops decreased 025 account wrigley , difference still considerable thorn palmer ratings adjusted adjusted stolen fielding total production batting runs base runs runs rating santo 123 284 14 137 41 7 robinson 105 52 5 151 19 8 \( 26 3 \) usual disclaimers p 's fr apply , really n't way mark comparison least 's better fielding percentage carney lansford 966 , 10th best time , 225 fr , dead last time also , since total rating compares players league average instead replacement level , robinson awarded extra 6 5 playing 653 games great career , would prefer santo 's plus 4 years replacement level would knock list replace stan hack 's similar story , hack 's far better hitting outweighs 's superior fielding buddy bell would also better choices \( imho course , though recent net discussion supports point view \) cf 7 \) andre dawson n't right field \? bob holt rjh allegra att com
gspira nyx cs du edu \( greg spira \) subject braves pitching updatedir organization university denver , dept math comp sci lines 28 grabiner math harvard edu \( david grabiner \) writes article murdoch acc virginia edu , david robert walker writes article 8994 blue cis pitt edu traven pitt edu \( neal traven \) writes one also separate offense batting baserunning , split probably somewhere around 49 5 0 5 'd give baserunning little credit , maybe 45 5 , even 40 10 give team roberto alomar team john oleruds identical batting stats \( would n't unreasonable \) , even n't let roberto steal single base , 'll score lot oleruds going first third often \( offense , gordon \) would n't give baserunning much value meant comment time 's way baserunning could important , runs created would n't nearly accurate runs created usually 90 95 accurate team level , 's lot baserunning account remaining percent greg
steph pegasus cs uiuc edu \( dale stephenson \) subject hits stolen second base 1992 summary stolen hits second basemen keywords second defense organization university illinois , dept comp sci , urbana , il lines 117 disclaimer fun computerized baseball game , keep track category called stolen hits , defined play made average fielder would make average effort using 1992 defensive averages posted sherri nichols \( thanks sherri ! \) , 've figured defensive stats second basemen hits stolen redefined plays kurt stillwell would made ok , realize 's unfair kurt 's probably victim pitching staff , fluke shots , monster park factor let 's put way replaced every second baseman nl someone kurt 's 57 6 making ability , many extra hits would go \? try correlate reality little , 've calculated net hits stolen , based number outs made compared league average fielder would make method 've calculated net double plays , net extra bases \( doubles triples let \) finally , throw formula call defensive contribution , dcon basically , represents defensive contribution player add number ops get dops \( defense plus slug \) , represent player 's total contribution team n't take seriously formula dcon appears end article short version definition terms hs hits stolen extra outs compared kurt stillwell nhs net hits stolen extra outs compared average fielder ndp net double plays extra double plays turned compared avg fielder neb net extra bases extra bases prevented compared avg fielder dcon defensive contribution bases hits prevented , rate dops dcon ops quick dirty measure player 's total contribution national league name hs nhs ndp neb dcon dops alicea , l 50 21 2 1 160 865 sandberg , r 108 42 1 1 134 1 015 thompson , r 65 20 5 1 104 852 lind , j 66 8 2 1 571 , b 31 1 4 0 014 705 deshields , 51 1 2 1 002 755 harris , l 25 4 0 1 602 lemke , 43 1 5 5 038 573 , 37 9 6 0 580 randolph , w 13 16 3 1 088 582 biggio , c 34 26 4 0 091 656 stillwell , k 0 43 3 1 236 336 ordered dops 1 015 sandberg 865 alicea 852 thompson 755 deshields 705 678 nl average 656 biggio 602 harris 582 randolph 580 573 lemke 571 lind 336 stillwell american league name hs nhs ndp neb dcon dops fletcher , 59 18 5 1 116 811 reed , j 83 17 3 1 071 708 ripken , b 56 9 1 1 631 baerga , c 67 0 10 0 838 blankenship , l 34 2 2 1 757 miller , k 34 4 1 1 725 alomar , r 62 4 9 2 020 812 knoblauch , c 50 13 7 3 024 718 , 37 4 2 1 025 704 kelly , p 42 1 5 1 636 whitaker , l 40 8 1 2 041 806 reynolds , h 47 6 5 1 603 sax , 56 6 9 1 052 555 , l 28 11 3 0 602 order dops 838 baerga 812 alomar 811 fletcher 806 whitaker 757 blankenship 725 miller 718 knoblauch 708 reed 704 691 al average 636 kelly 631 ripken 603 reynolds 602 555 sax discussion dcon formula \( \( nhs ndp \) pa \) \( \( nhs ndp neb \) ab \) bizzare formula \? basically , 's designed added ops , idea run prevented important run scored extra outs factored obp , extra bases removed factored slg 's used pa ab discussion see post hits stolen first base 1992 dale j stephenson \( steph cs uiuc edu \) baseball fanatic considered good look wise , especially overburdened information j golden kimball
steven advtech uswest com \( steve novak \) subject old predictions laugh nntp posting host advtech uswest com organization u west advanced technologies lines 25 \( steve novak \) writes \( edward ted fischer \) writes \( robert c hite \) writes dead wrong ! last time checked , jim fregosi still managing phillies , quite fine job thank best record baseball 8 1 look , asshole , got confused somebody else n't flame , would appreciate extended courtesy problem \? hite 's post n't flame correction error last , steve novak 've since read entire original posting hite mr fischer actually restrained let mr hite hope never makes similar , tiny mistake steve novak ban bomb ! ban pope ! ! steven advtech uswest com
sepinwal mail sas upenn edu \( alan sepinwall \) subject mel hall organization university pennsylvania , school arts sciences lines 26 nntp posting host mail sas upenn edu article 1993apr17 coe montana edu warped cs montana edu \( doug dolven \) writes anyone heard anything mel hall season \? 'd heard n't yankees happened \? doug dolven mel alive well playing japan \( yanks let go asking much money , thought going get barry bonds , making hall obsolete ! well , least got o'neill replace mel man \) i'm outta like vladimir ! alan \( scene real genius val kilmer trying pick gorgeous blonde \) val , 's anything , , point , , let know blonde hammer six inch spike board penis \? val right , blonde girl 's gotta standards \( walks away \)
howard wong mindlink bc ca \( howard wong \) subject jack morris organization mind link ! british columbia , canada lines 9 today , april 17 , jack morris lost first three starts however , jays well without injured dave stuart credit rest pitching staff jack lost bit edge \? worst start jack morris \?
mss netcom com \( mark singer \) subject dodgers take 2 straight pirates organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 25 article mizar usc edu mizar usc edu \( dodger \) writes davis strawberry attributed turn reggie smith , dodger batting coach flew florida three days ago gave pep talk instruction davis 4 5 yesterday couple hits today strawberry two hits yesterday believe two today , two home runs foolish thought something fact hitting wakefield , ball day , otto , stuff wonder reggie gave pep talk instruction rest lineup , also suddenly came alive two games beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
tamsun tamu edu \( jack mckinney \) subject official rules baseball isbn organization barbara 's dungeon palace lines 12 distribution na nntp posting host tamsun tamu edu trying get copy official rules baseball someone sent isbn number , since lost anyone give information , tell find book \? none local bookstores i'm walking home school , i'm watching jack mckinney men building new house , guy ham tamu edu roof calls paranoid little morse code space philips rent
r4938585 joplin biosci arizona edu \( doug roberts \) subject nl vs al \? organization university arizona , biotechnology , tucson lines 2 nntp posting host joplin biosci arizona edu keywords game length doug roberts ken hill nl mvp ! ! let 's go
egr msu edu \( fisher greg \) subject jewish baseball players \? organization michigan state university , college engineering lines 16 nntp posting host ee msu edu article 1993apr16 princeton edu roger astro princeton edu \( roger lustig \) writes article 1993apr16 husc3 harvard edu fry zariski harvard edu \( david fry \) writes , jeopardy , category jewish sports heros , believe answer , pitcher four hitters dodgers 60s said , hank aaron \? alex said something like , n't think hank aaron pitcher well , jewish name 8 \) roger 's right remember hank greenberg \? \? ! !
gwittt alleg edu \( tom gwitt \) subject mel hall organization allegheny college lines 11 article 1993apr17 coe montana edu warped cs montana edu \( doug dolven \) writes anyone heard anything mel hall season \? 'd heard n't yankees happened \? japan playing baseball tom gwitt gwittt alleg edu
r4938585 joplin biosci arizona edu \( doug roberts \) subject sandberg , runs , rbis \( notes jays vs indians series \) organization university arizona , biotechnology , tucson lines 17 distribution na nntp posting host joplin biosci arizona edu article news rich bnr ca bratt crchh7a9 nosubdomain nodomain \( john bratt \) writes rbis runs scored two important offensive statistics talk obp slg want , fact remains team scores runs wins game ! flame away john bratt ok , asked ! guess n't bode well cubs \? doug roberts willing trade frank bolick bag used baseballs ! let 's go expos !
cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu \( oriolefan uiuc \) subject america 's team \? organization university illinois urbana lines 43 kingoz camelot bradley edu \( orin roth \) writes well , officially 's braves least started winning still , officially \? , \? receive label \? , without doubt , america 's team cubs \? well , guess america loves underdogs every year , matter talent predictions , never \( close never possible \) win anything years , losing mounted , america fallen love perennial losers cubs fans chicago teams worldwide cubs fans worldwide teams division combined aura excitement surrounds cubs beginning season like one else \( including ws champs \) must eternal hope year 've got talent 're good start 've got pitching \( hitting , whatever strong point time \) 's cubs eventually win ws \? god knows since 's long , could come time , could another 85 years finally win , start winning consistently , cubs remain america 's underdogs cubs team orin bradley u defenition underdog team talent comes nowhere contend '69 mets '89 orioles prime examples , cubs root cubs , feel sorry , basically dogs pirates today great example underdog rockies marlins compete , underdogs north stars trip stanley cup finals good example underdog 's journey cubs good team year , play weak division , much less america 's team i'm really jester disguise ! chintan amin university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu neil peart , \( c \) 1981 quick judge , quick anger , slow understand , ignorance prejudice fear walk hand hand
ns1 cc lehigh edu \( benjamin \) subject tigers pound mariners ! ! ! ! ! ! ! organization lehigh university lines 7 football baseball detroit saturday \? looking school , people may think football two games week , tigers scored 40 runs ! ! ! ! offense carry , hope pitching hold camden yards yesterday , everytime looked score getting higher great site see tigers kicking butt enjoying game camden yards go tigers go tony phillips ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
random access digex com \( random \) subject scott erickson organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 3 distribution usa nntp posting host access digex net anyone scoop scot erickson \? long going \?
steinman utoronto ca \( david steinman \) subject america 's team \? organization uoft mechanical engineering lines 15 cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu \( oriolefan uiuc \) writes defenition underdog team talent comes nowhere contend '69 mets '89 orioles prime examples , cubs sorry , virtually impossible win division talent 162 games would amend definition underdog team expected lose , wins thanks underestimated talent dave !
jxu black clarku edu \( dark wing duck ! ! \) subject bosox win ! \( team record 9 3 \) organization clark university \( worcester , \) lines 8 today , frank viola rest pitcher staff boston red sox shutout chicago white sox 4 0 red sox 9th win season far , red sox games roger frank v pitched \( 6 0 \) 3 3 three starters pitching tomorrow , dopson pitch \( good first start rocky second start \) wonder bosox play 500 ball without roger frank v
bbs comarow jwt oau org \( bob comarow \) subject jewish baseball players \? reply bbs comarow jwt oau org organization matrix lines 4 dave kingman jewish bob comarow org
po cwru edu \( justin lowe \) subject america 's team \? organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 35 reply po cwru edu \( justin lowe \) nntp posting host ins cwru edu previous article , steinman utoronto ca \( david steinman \) says cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu \( oriolefan uiuc \) writes defenition underdog team talent comes nowhere contend '69 mets '89 orioles prime examples , cubs sorry , virtually impossible win division talent 162 games would amend definition underdog team expected lose , wins thanks underestimated talent dave ! ok , mets 's good examples , '90 reds \? really think anyone expected sweep 's \? know people n't even think 'd win game , let alone win series proved wrong , though , n't \? year , ignore record 've rocky start , nothing colorado shall rise hunt october continues \( due respect \) bye michelson 1993 spring olympics champions road rally , 5 legged race , rope pull , , penny wars , banner , spirit cheer michelson menace rides ! \( n't love intense nationalistic feeling residence hall \? \)
rickert nextwork rose hulman edu \( john h rickert \) subject notes jays vs indians series organization computer science department rose hulman lines 19 distribution na reply rickert nextwork rose hulman edu \( john h rickert \) nntp posting host g215a 1 nextwork rose hulman edu article andy bgsu edu klopfens andy bgsu edu \( bruce klopfenstein \) writes cmk athena mit edu \( charles kozierok \) writes article 1993apr13 195301 csd newshost stanford edu nlu xenon stanford edu \( nelson lu \) writes guess line ba obp slg ab h 2b 3b hr bb x 310 405 427 571 177 27 8 8 87 312 354 455 657 205 32 1 20 35 love alomar fans left rbis list give break ! little delayed , interests fairness \( stats elias \) ba obp slg r hr rbi outs alomar 310 405 427 105 8 76 264 20 5 419 baerga 312 354 455 92 20 105 316 21 2 480 see baerga large advantage rbi \( runs batted \) , \( runners driven \) outs john rickert rickert nextwork rose hulman edu
davewood bruno cs colorado edu \( david rex wood \) subject baseball spreads \? nntp posting host bruno cs colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 8 one read betting spreads baseball \? tend something like 8 9 means must runs ! thanks david rex wood davewood cs colorado edu university colorado boulder
davewood bruno cs colorado edu \( david rex wood \) subject rockies need relief nntp posting host bruno cs colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 13 , rockies bullpen fell apart andy ashby pitched six \( somewhat shaky \) innings giving one run game dreaded relief three combined give 3 runs \( one believe \) 7th inning blew save opportunity \( final 4 2 vs expos \) despite problems pen , think rockies team wont taken lightly going today 's game , league 's leading hitter rbi man \( galarraga \) , two leaders stolen bases \( young cole \) increasingly strong starting pitching david rex wood davewood cs colorado edu university colorado boulder
davewood bruno cs colorado edu \( david rex wood \) subject rockies need relief nntp posting host bruno cs colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 14 article 1993apr18 colorado edu davewood bruno cs colorado edu \( david rex wood \) writes shaky \) innings giving one run game dreaded relief three combined give 3 runs \( one believe \) 7th inning taken lightly going today 's game , league 's leading geez , type \? david rex wood davewood cs colorado edu university colorado boulder
cmk athena mit edu \( charles kozierok \) subject baseball spreads \? organization massachusetts institute technology lines 9 nntp posting host marinara mit edu article 1993apr18 colorado edu davewood bruno cs colorado edu \( david rex wood \) writes one read betting spreads baseball \? tend something like 8 9 means must runs ! spread means bet 5 underdog win 8 , 9 favorite win 5 charles
rsf atd ucar edu \( anthony michael jivoin \) subject bosox win ! \( team record 9 3 \) organization national center atmospheric research lines 31 article jxu black clarku edu , jxu black clarku edu \( dark wing duck ! ! \) writes today , frank viola rest pitcher staff boston red sox shutout chicago white sox 4 0 red sox 9th win season far , red sox games roger frank v pitched \( 6 0 \) 3 3 three starters pitching tomorrow , dopson pitch \( good first start rocky second start \) wonder bosox play 500 ball without roger frank v long yankees division red sox play better 500 baseball red sox hire former east german swimming coaches train fine art body building red sox use chinese women reference hawk , red sox definitely chance east year brings class , work ethic leadership park day burning desire play world series future hall , andre dawson kick butt boston ! rockies country , anthony jivoin national center atmospheric research rsf atd p box 3000 boulder , co 80307
cac owlnet rice edu \( christopher andrew campbell \) subject royals summary never organization rice university distribution na lines 12 article camelot camelot bradley edu \( richard \) writes b darkness deleted oh , lighten might actually finish last , believe n't happened since second season 1970 nope royals team majors finished last place course n't include marlins rockies good chance finishing last also rich
dxf12 po cwru edu \( douglas fowler \) subject jack morris organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 60 reply dxf12 po cwru edu \( douglas fowler \) nntp posting host slc12 ins cwru edu previous article , tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) says article skeena ucs ubc ca stlouis unixg ubc ca \( phill st louis \) writes jack morris' starts like playoff starts era 17 18 3 starts luck 17 18 era \? lucky get 21 wins last year , era 4 04 team scored lot runs would happy could still pitch era 4 04 , seems suffering total bad pitchers prone total collapse good pitchers closer mediocrity smallest push completely lose grip good ones collapse somewhat , come back next year went 20 wins era 3 13 19 era around 4 pitched well several years carlton 13 lost 20 year 27 10 record \( source bill james historical baseball abstract \) let 's forget john , started 1 5 finished 21 6 1985 pretty bad era take busch stadium account start season gave early runs '92 games would get stronger game went , thus giving runs last going stays game gets win else would pitched many innings \? yup used dig hole , get together stick run support eventually came year n't gotten together recall , 4 50 era 1st half 3 50 era 2nd half last year hmmm , 21 runs 11 innings suppose starts 30 games , winds w 200 innings pitched allows 4 runs game next 189 innings , 'll 4 75 era end year \( think totals right \) going hard come back jack may finished time retire released , return form last year 5 million contract awful lot eat ! 1st hunch morris , may pitching injury telling anyone 2nd guess banished bullpen remainder season starts \( perhaps stewart comes dl \? danny cox , went 3 4 scoreless innings tribe today , start morris \? looks like really good one gaston scrambling find starters , 'd imagine luckily , jays good offense \) n't think would dare release end year 'll replaced stewart cox doug fowler dxf12 po cwru edu , age 4 ever wonder , casey relatives give lots hugs love missed 3rd strike poem support , 'cause heaven great ran first made \? big hug lasts forever ever ! ! !
rstimets silver ucs indiana edu \( robert stimets \) subject reds snap 5 game losing streak 4 18 keywords finally nntp posting host silver ucs indiana edu organization indiana university lines 136 kevin mitchell 's sacrifice fly eighth brett saberhagen plated pitch runner cesar hernandez give reds 2 3 come behind victory new york hernandez ran pinch hitter cecil espy , got inning started solid single right , moved second bob kelly 's infield third base line , third jeff branson 's well placed bunt rare show excellent execution recently reds offense cincinnati 2 0 starter tim pugh fifth given one hit first four innings , fourth inning lead double vince coleman coleman left stranded third bobby bonilla joe popped short pinch hitting eddie murray argued plate umpire kellogg 's inside strike drawing line \( really , know better \) murray , later manager jeff ended getting tossed mets' fifth started howard johnson 's first pitch homer pugh must slightly shaken , popped next pitch jeff kent 's single , ryan thompson liner left \( surprise \) misplayed mitchell turned rbi triple catcher 's grounder drawn branson failed bring thompson , play game occured saberhagen due , reds pitching coach larry met infield discuss possibility suicide squeeze called perfectly thompson hung dry pugh 's first pitch pitch threat ended \( n't national league great \? \? \) reds picked 2 runs seventh knot game barry larkin 's ground , mitchell , chris sabo , randy milligan got back back back singles third scoring mitchell reggie sanders plated sabo long fly center double oliver might scored runner dan wilson , third base coach dave bristol threw stop sign late wilson hung dry killing reds rally rob dibble came ninth pitched two outs runner second bonilla came plate could think sunday game late august last year bonilla 's three run slapped loss dibble spelled beginning end 's season bonilla ended walking , hojo left give reds first win week , earned dibble third save many opportunities win went steve foster \( 1 2 \) got must ego boosting two perfect innings work , striking three saberhagen \( 2 1 \) got loss though i'm bit surprised even pitched eighth 'll take , though reds 3 9 , still worst team baseball royals victory today mets 6 5 line new york mets ab r h k bb lo coleman lf 4 0 1 0 0 0 fernandez ss 4 0 0 1 0 0 murray 1b 1 0 0 0 0 0 ph rf 3 0 1 0 0 0 bonilla rf 1b 3 0 0 2 1 1 johnson 3b 3 1 1 1 0 2 kent 2b 3 1 1 1 0 0 thompson cf 3 0 1 1 0 0 c 3 0 0 2 0 0 saberhagen p 3 0 0 0 0 0 totals 30 2 5 8 1 3 hr johnson \( pugh , leading fifth , 0 0 pitch \) 3b thompson \( pugh , fifth , 0 , 1 rbi , picked \) 2b coleman \( pugh , fourth , 0 , 0 , stranded third \) rbi johnson , thompson cincinnati reds ab r h k bb lo kelly cf 4 0 1 0 0 0 branson 2b 3 0 1 0 0 0 larkin ss 3 0 0 0 1 0 mitchell lf 3 1 1 0 0 0 dibble p 0 0 0 0 0 0 sabo 3b 4 1 1 1 0 2 milligan 1b 3 0 3 0 0 0 wilson pr c 0 0 0 0 0 0 sanders rf 2 0 0 0 0 1 oliver c 1b 3 0 1 1 0 1 pugh p 1 0 0 1 0 0 roberts ph 1 0 0 1 0 0 foster p 0 0 0 0 0 0 espy ph 1 0 1 0 0 0 hernandez pr lf 0 1 0 0 0 0 totals 28 3 9 4 1 5 \( \) \( \) oliver stranded seventh double wilson run 2b oliver \( saberhagen , 2 , runner first , stranded \) rbi milligan , sanders , mitchell sac branson sf sanders mitchell larkin gdp larkin new york 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 2 5 0 cincinnati 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 1 x 3 9 0 pitching ip r er h k bb new york saberhagen \( l 2 1 \) 8 3 3 9 4 1 cincinnati pugh 6 2 2 4 4 0 foster \( w 1 2 \) 2 0 0 0 3 0 dibble \( 3 \) 1 0 0 1 1 1 pb wilson ejected murray , umps kellogg attendance 32 , 435 2 23 coming reds travel pittsburgh three continue chicago three next game tuesday 7 35 , expected pitch belcher \( 0 1 \) vs tomlin \( 0 0 \) rstimets
dxf12 po cwru edu \( douglas fowler \) subject 1 dimensional teams \( royals final run total organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 43 reply dxf12 po cwru edu \( douglas fowler \) nntp posting host slc12 ins cwru edu previous article , sweda css itd umich edu \( sean sweda \) says 've saying quite time , absent net figured 'd stick neck bit royals set record runs scored al team since inception dh rule \( p ideas \? \) fall easily short 600 runs , 's damn sure ca n't believe media fools picking win division \( like tom gage detroit news claiming robinson kind genius trades 's made \) would say thing dodgers '65 '66 \? true , cone probably good drysdale , koufax , still , teams winning home run leaders bad totals , lots low scoring games , etc n't use relievers , whereas jeff montgomery super season said , still picked 5th , think superb pitching team win enough hitting 's chance , think , team tremendous hitting pitching least , wonder , though one people think would better team johnson , koufax prime , seaver , carlton , young , real order , starters , sutter , fingers , lyle bullpen , puny offense \( assuming good defense , like , , etc \) team poor pitching , offense cobb , carew , ruth , gehrig , mays , schmidt , wagner , bench , pick order would postulate pitching one would several games better end even best hitters succeed 2 5 time best years , great pitcher throw lots shutouts taking players prime , might throw 50 shutouts year offense would get 1 run across wonder someone something could plug time teams regular season , played , report results would love see doug fowler dxf12 po cwru edu , age 4 ever wonder , casey relatives give lots hugs love missed 3rd strike poem support , 'cause heaven great ran first made \? big hug lasts forever ever ! ! !
vince sscl uwo ca subject early bbddd returns \? organization social science computing laboratory nntp posting host sscl uwo ca lines 11 article 1993apr16 news cs brandeis edu , st902415 pip cc brandeis edu \( adam levin \) writes curious anyone started standout early season bb ddd year concerned fan bb ddd , hoping produce first update bb ddd week please send info significant \( longest , critical , etc \) home run seen yet season vince
c558172 mizzou1 missouri edu subject america 's team \? organization university missouri x posted mizzou1 missouri edu nntp posting host sol ctr columbia edu lines 23 article kingoz camelot kingoz camelot bradley edu \( orin roth \) writes well , officially 's braves least started winning still , officially \? , \? receive label \? , without doubt , america 's team cubs \? orin bradley u i'm really jester disguise ! sorry , saw survey somewhere showed america 's favorite team damn yankees much underdogs loved trivia cardinals taken 3 5 series yanks losing record \( spring training games counted \) shannon
k mullin oz plymouth edu \( mully \) subject montreal question reply k mullin oz plymouth edu \( mully \) organization plymouth state college plymouth , n h lines 9 position mike lansing play \? cannot seem find anywhere thanks ! ! ! ! 1 k keith j mullins \( \) p c ooo \( \) ooo internet plymouth , nh takes big man cry , k mullin oz plymouth edu
vergolin euler lbs msu edu \( david vergolini \) subject detroit tigers organization michigan state university lines 7 nntp posting host euler lbs msu edu summary stop roar tiger 's bats keywords detroit top offensive team league roar michigan loader ever year mike head ernie back booth , tiger bats bang summer already scored 20 runs two games fielder , tettleton , deer think win division pitching ! bull ! , moore , wells , krueger make decent staff keep team many games henneman close watch boston , toronto , baltimore motor city back
kkeach pomona claremont edu subject three homer games padres notes reply kkeach pomona claremont edu organization pomona college lines 36 wondering holds record three homer games career , answer johnny mize career cards yanks hit three 6 times almost sure case anyone wondering , record two homer games held babe ruth 72 mize 's record may last much longer juan gonzalez least three games three maybe 4 know least two last year one rookie n't record books college check though please let know , okay , wrong onto padres anyone follows \? ly access local news \? n't anything los angeles ca n't get consistently around comment looks though san diego gotten better two deals brought bell plantier padres also forced team use darrell course , plantier could get injured could hit power 91 lower average bell always could finish 240 15 18 hrs essentially clark 's numbers leadoff comment craig shipley \? \? \? \? \? \? get base 29 time i'm lucky leadoff \? hell , usual starters , use gwynn 's got 4 steals already shipley starting injury stillwell , though \? n't seen stillwell 's name box scores anyway unless going use leadoff use gwynn gets base year stealing bases sheffield comment though season early stats mean nothing witness phillips batting 500 currently sheffield injury , wrong n't hear anything andy pitching like second half '91 \? flash promise throws \? anyone seen pitch two good games \? score today , sunday april 18 padres 10 , st louis 6 padres sweep cardinals gwynn goes 5 5 homer sheffield also homer winning cause thanks listening reading comments \? \? \? \? kelly kkeach pomona claremont edu
shapiro david yale edu \( david shapiro \) subject america 's team \? organization , organized \? lines 21 distribution na gui utoronto ca nntp posting host minerva cis yale edu reply steinman utoronto ca 's message sun , 18 apr 1993 21 13 02 gmt article gui utoronto ca steinman utoronto ca \( david steinman \) writes cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu \( oriolefan uiuc \) writes defenition underdog team talent comes nowhere contend '69 mets '89 orioles prime examples , cubs sorry , virtually impossible win division talent 162 games well , players , certainly however , quite possible win managerial talent cf blue jays , 1992 david david shapiro people call monkey , felt like shapiro david yale edu piano back winter long shapiro minerva cis yale edu piano back maybe next stan
k mullin oz plymouth edu \( mully \) subject request al stats reply k mullin oz plymouth edu \( mully \) organization plymouth state college plymouth , n h lines 4 anyone al individual stats find \? k
pjtier01 ulkyvx louisville edu subject montreal question lines 12 nntp posting host ulkyvx louisville edu organization university louisville article 1993apr19 oz plymouth edu , k mullin oz plymouth edu \( mully \) writes position mike lansing play \? cannot seem find anywhere thanks ! ! ! ! 1 currently , 's played 2nd deshields shifted third delino came back today , played ss cold wil natural positions seem middle infield , seemingly find spot somewhere long bat hot p tierney
dwarner journalism indiana edu \( david j \) subject detroit tigers nntp posting host journalism indiana edu reply dwarner journalism indiana edu organization indiana university lines 17 david vergolini writes roar michigan loader ever year mike head ernie back booth , tiger bats bang summer already scored 20 runs two games fielder , tettleton , deer think win division pitching ! bull ! , moore , wells , krueger make decent staff keep team many games yeah , tigers keep scoring 20 runs game i'm reading woofing correctly , one slump going pull team contention like yogi says , 'll believe believe david j \( dwarner journalism indiana edu \) blue riddle productions 1993 's rap art ep coming tape time real e mail 411
cmk athena mit edu \( charles kozierok \) subject detroit tigers organization massachusetts institute technology lines 20 nntp posting host marinara mit edu keywords detroit top offensive team league article msuinfo cl msu edu vergolin euler lbs msu edu \( david vergolini \) writes roar michigan loader ever year mike head ernie back booth , tiger bats bang summer already scored 20 runs two games fielder , tettleton , deer think win division pitching ! bull ! , moore , wells , krueger make decent staff keep team many games henneman close watch boston , toronto , baltimore motor city back nice woofing \( say \? \) yes , fun , exciting team would pay see last year , went 75 87 year , offense essentially , pitching , best , essentially think suddenly improve win 92 games required win l east \? changed n't see \? remember , 20 4 win worth much standings 3 2 win charles
cs902043 ariel yorku ca \( shawn luddington \) subject jack morris organization york university , toronto , canada lines 40 article 1993apr18 cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) writes article 1993apr18 1210 mnemosyne cs du edu gspira nyx cs du edu \( greg spira \) writes howard wong mindlink bc ca \( howard wong \) writes jack lost bit edge \? worst start jack morris \? uh , jack lost edge 5 years ago , one average year last 5 goes prove better good lucky count good tomorrow lucky seems prone bad starts \( bad finish last year \) \( yes , enjoying every last run gives said morris better signing viola \? \) cheers , valentine hey valentine , n't see boston world series rings fingers damn , morris three probably hall fame future therefore , would say toronto easily made best signing n't tell boston win year wo n't even top 4 division , like 6th shawn
spira panix com \( greg spira \) subject america 's team \? organization panix public access internet unix , nyc lines 12 article news cso uiuc edu cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu \( oriolefan uiuc \) writes defenition underdog team talent comes nowhere contend '69 mets '89 orioles prime examples , uh , n't think call team tom seaver , jerry koosman , nolan ryan pitching staff team talent come nowhere , improvement forseeable greg
spira panix com \( greg sarcasm way life spira \) subject america 's team \? organization boo ! lines 36 usenet ins cwru edu po cwru edu \( justin lowe \) writes previous article , steinman utoronto ca \( david steinman \) says cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu \( oriolefan uiuc \) writes defenition underdog team talent comes nowhere contend '69 mets '89 orioles prime examples , cubs sorry , virtually impossible win division talent 162 games would amend definition underdog team expected lose , wins thanks underestimated talent dave ! ok , mets 's good examples , '90 reds \? really think anyone expected sweep 's \? know people n't even think 'd win game , let alone win series people silly team gets world series win world series , anybody ever expects sweep crazy put best team baseball series worst team baseball , worst team would win least game time well could win series , though odds would certainly greg
mamatha devineni ratnam mr47 andrew cmu edu subject zane ! ! rescue us simmons ! ! organization post office , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 77 nntp posting host andrew cmu edu far simmons looks like total idiot 1 \) zane smith learn return dl would rather zane smith pitch right handed moeller pitch 2 \) sure simmons ready say told otto impressive win last week otto 's latest debacle restored simmon 's reputation looks like back '92 form al 's highest era among starters four sake \( ted 's sake \) , hope pitches 3 5 era rest season yeah , right 3 \) tomlin merced bit disappointing still considering considerable amount talent maturity shown first seasons , seem actually gotten little bit worse tomlin almost rookie year lefty batters merced good oba rookie year showed lot concentration plate rookie year 4 \) walk well , seems losing end tonight still think walk contract 5 \) leyland accept part blame lavalliere situation ca n't understand management 's fear losing tom prince waivers even , 's use hander like slaught smart platoon also , blaming leyland case , since convinced lavalliere , giving way much time last year regular season playoffs \( slaught played 7 games good average right handed pitching \) n't leyland simmons last year , attempt trade lavalliere last year \? fool could tell lavalliere n't fit last year 6 \) dennis moeller scary ! ! ! 7 \) well , going high era end season maybe 3 4 range 1 million plus \? come customary home run giving stage patterson goes weeks , patterson served pirates well year far , seems pitched well rangers think pirates spent money patterson 8 \) rookie batters well , young surprised bit instant impact , excellent performance n't much surprise think thank 9 \) rookie pitchers worse expected , especially 10 \) slaught come n't given contract extension last year \? value increased immensely 11 \) lonnie smith ! ! well , eric davis signed comparable amount let 's see eric hit better run better field better didnt pirates go eric davis injured davis better healthy lonnie smith even smith gets big hits year , wo n't asset looked terrible bases field 12 \) management big big zero sauer yet make agreement favor revenue sharing seems concerned pleasing idiot danforth preparing team move tampa bay 13 \) alex cole fiasco pirates infield cf positions look good rf lf would looked good could gotten cole replace two four outfielders eric davis , van slyke cole would made respectable outfield even without eric davis , pirates would respectable outfield cole , slyke , merced \( think hit left handed switch hitting \) simmons options outfield ironically , biggest accomplishment simmon 's tenure getting alex cole really cheap bad 14 \) draft picks bonds forget pirates rant rave get picks , issue still appealed , doesnt convince anyone simmons sauer idiots , nothing else final note tim wakefield wo n't awful last 2 starts n't count pitching like last year rest season also , pirates contention towards end season , miss redus 's clutch hitting speed \( peaked second half last 2 seasons \) ratnam
gt0523e prism gatech edu \( michael andre mule \) subject torre worst manager \? distribution usa organization georgia institute technology lines 24 article 93095 hydra gatech edu gt7469a prism gatech edu \( brian r landmann \) writes e , later , ninth inning bases loaded two outs puts lankford , 300 hitter power pinch runner uses luis alicea , 250 hitter power pinch hitter thinking memory serves well , alicea hit , damn near tied game torre obviously knows players better see y'all ballyard go braves chop chop michael mule' michael andre mule georgia institute technology , atlanta georgia , 30332 uucp ! decvax , hplabs , ncar , purdue , rutgers ! gatech ! prism ! gt0523e internet gt0523e prism gatech edu
maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) subject jack morris organization dept computer science , laurentian university , sudbury , lines 33 1993apr19 024222 11181 newshub ariel yorku ca cs902043 ariel yorku ca \( shawn luddington \) writes hey valentine , n't see boston world series rings fingers damn , morris three probably hall fame future therefore , would say toronto easily made best signing n't tell boston win year wo n't even top 4 division , like 6th yeah valentine , many rings clemens \? nothin' like good old fashioned canadian logic btw good thing say jay 's rotation year could worse stewart might stayed healthy cordially , always , maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca many morons rm little time
gt0523e prism gatech edu \( michael andre mule \) subject militello update distribution usa organization georgia institute technology lines 22 hey ! ! ! yankee fans 've knocking prediction baltimore flooded mailbox cries militello 's good , militello 's good \? \? ! ! noticed got skipped oh strong first outing 's chance columbus , \? please n't tell 're relying guy fourth , fifth , fourth starter brittle pitching staff 's , 's still early see y'all ballyard go braves chop chop michael mule' michael andre mule georgia institute technology , atlanta georgia , 30332 uucp ! decvax , hplabs , ncar , purdue , rutgers ! gatech ! prism ! gt0523e internet gt0523e prism gatech edu
dwarner journalism indiana edu \( david j \) subject mets rapists ! ! nntp posting host journalism indiana edu reply dwarner journalism indiana edu organization indiana university lines 19 todd karlin writes read klapisch 's news columns regularly , know accused enjoys \( hopefully professional reasons \) news story , even n't one far confrontation bobby bonilla days ago , almost totally blame bonilla matter member press , matter much individual might , give ballplayer right threaten journalist bonilla n't threatening anyone wanted give dollar tour \) david j \( dwarner journalism indiana edu \) blue riddle productions 1993 's rap art ep coming tape time real e mail 411
cmk athena mit edu \( charles kozierok \) subject jack morris organization massachusetts institute technology lines 59 nntp posting host marinara mit edu article 1993apr19 024222 11181 newshub ariel yorku ca cs902043 ariel yorku ca \( shawn luddington \) writes article 1993apr18 cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) writes article 1993apr18 1210 mnemosyne cs du edu gspira nyx cs du edu \( greg spira \) writes howard wong mindlink bc ca \( howard wong \) writes jack lost bit edge \? worst start jack morris \? uh , jack lost edge 5 years ago , one average year last 5 goes prove better good lucky count good tomorrow lucky seems prone bad starts \( bad finish last year \) \( yes , enjoying every last run gives said morris better signing viola \? \) hey valentine , n't see boston world series rings fingers cheap shot \) damn , morris three probably hall fame future cares \? two came toronto jays signed viola instead morris , would frank 20 got ring would way 20 year , therefore , would say toronto easily made best signing logic curious , spurious reason believe viola would n't many games signed toronto compare stupid w l records , sure compare team 's offensive averages , looking anything like morris viola year later basically hindsight plenty reasons apparent viola better pitcher , based previous recent years also based age \( frank almost 5 years younger ! many knew \? \) people got caught '91 world series , morris' 21 wins last year wins stupidest , misleading statistic baseball , far worse rbi r 21 means jays got lot runs really valid retort valentine n't red sox trying get morris \? oh , sure , said viola first choice afterwards , expected would say \? n't tell boston win year wo n't even top 4 division , like 6th true , wo n't lack contribution viola , cares \? charles
cs902043 ariel yorku ca \( shawn luddington \) subject montreal question organization york university , toronto , canada lines 14 article 1993apr19 oz plymouth edu k mullin oz plymouth edu \( mully \) writes position mike lansing play \? cannot seem find anywhere thanks ! ! ! ! 1 k keith j mullins \( \) p c ooo \( \) ooo internet plymouth , nh takes big man cry , k mullin oz plymouth edu 's played 2nd 3rd also heard play short shawn
mamatha devineni ratnam mr47 andrew cmu edu subject zane ! ! rescue us simmons ! ! organization post office , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 17 nntp posting host po4 andrew cmu edu last message , wrote 12 \) management big big zero sauer yet make agreement favor revenue sharing meant argument instead agreement also , think add ted 's positive achievements smiley trade good pirates think ted could gotten someone better cummings seems pretty good cole trade excellent simmons botched year 's draft seems gone well pirates lost 2 high picks bonds fiasco oh well , give trying prove simmons total idiot
iastate edu \( amy j patterson \) subject twins games \) reply iastate edu \( amy j patterson \) organization iowa state university lines 4 anyone know twins games broadcast good ole ames iowa \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? thanks
\( austin jacobs \) subject bob knepper damn right ! nntp posting host berkeley kstar node net yale edu organization university lines 17 n't guys think \? mean , c'mon ! heck women even thinking getting baseball cause many problems look lisa olson remember reporter entered new england patriots locker room \? started crying like little girl ! n't think women belong man 's sport smart guys flame , know given example football cares \? still applies male sports women umpires \? jeez ! look pam postema 's woman , everybody face earth thinks 's great 's getting opportunity ump even watched games iq greater roast beef , 'd see nearly good aaa umpires besides , probably worried cracking fingernail foul tip wade boggs' bat jose 's bat either way , many complications austin jacobs \( bob knepper fan club member 12 \)
cs902060 ariel yorku ca \( geoffrey e dias \) subject attention anyone syracuse ny richmond va organization york university , toronto , canada lines 13 two conflicting reports pitcher either jays' farm system braves' name bill taylor picked jays , offered back braves able send syracuse chiefs one report says braves took back assigned richmond says roster one right \?
savoy hg uleth ca \( jim savoy \) subject what's scores \? reply savoy hg uleth ca organization university lines 33 \( sean garrison \) writes alright one thing say n't know 's , thought newsgroup place discussion must people constantly post little messages certain team winning certain inning \? mean , come ! many people dependent newsgroup find scores mid game \? cmk athena mit edu \( charles kozierok \) writes amen hear ya , brother take look posts read sometime propagation delays significant , often hours even days , even people access machines close poster network let 's try weeks ! april 18th today finished reading posts regarding cleveland indians tragedy needless say , n't want read partial games played 3 weeks ago charles mentioned \( excluded quote \) join mailing list want woof \( consider entering 4th inning scores woofing \) thank plug read rest posts spring training jim savoy university savoy hg uleth ca bible black
davewood bruno cs colorado edu \( david rex wood \) subject bob knepper damn right ! nntp posting host bruno cs colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 24 article 1993apr19 035406 news yale edu \( austin jacobs \) writes n't guys think \? mean , c'mon ! heck women even thinking getting baseball cause many problems look lisa olson remember reporter entered new england patriots locker room \? started crying like little girl ! n't think women belong man 's sport smart guys flame , know given example football cares \? still applies male sports women umpires \? jeez ! look pam postema 's woman , everybody face earth thinks 's great 's getting opportunity ump even watched games iq greater roast beef , 'd see nearly good aaa umpires besides , probably worried cracking fingernail foul tip wade boggs' bat jose 's bat either way , many complications austin jacobs \( bob knepper fan club member 12 \) someone tell 's \) hidden somewhere \? \? \? david rex wood davewood cs colorado edu university colorado boulder
williams edu \( teflon x \) subject zane ! ! rescue us simmons ! ! organization williams college , , lines 28 nntp posting host hancock cc williams edu article andrew cmu edu mamatha devineni ratnam mr47 andrew cmu edu writes far simmons looks like total idiot 5 \) leyland accept part blame lavalliere situation ca n't understand management 's fear losing tom prince waivers even , 's use hander like slaught smart platoon also , blaming leyland case , since convinced lavalliere , giving way much time last year regular season playoffs \( slaught played 7 games good average right handed pitching \) n't leyland simmons last year , attempt trade lavalliere last year \? fool could tell lavalliere n't fit last year sorry , biggest load bunk 've seen \) pirates trying trade lavalliere time nobody even vaguely interested b \) several teams made known would grab prince , options c \) lavalliere 's release nothing released , , event injury slaught , lavalliere longer capable \( believe \) everyday catcher since slaught good righties lefties , offense actually improve move toby
williams edu \( teflon x \) subject militello update organization williams college , , lines 26 distribution usa nntp posting host hancock cc williams edu article hydra gatech edu gt0523e prism gatech edu \( michael andre mule \) writes hey ! ! ! yankee fans 've knocking prediction baltimore flooded mailbox cries militello 's good , militello 's good \? \? ! ! noticed got skipped oh strong first outing good mussina 's better sutcliffe 's mcdonald 's 's chance columbus , \? 's bullpen charge please n't tell 're relying guy fourth , fifth , fourth starter brittle pitching staff 's got talent 4th starter , ace higher ranked \( generally better \) prospect arthur rhodes happens , well hey , oriole 's 4th starter 's , 's still early militello , 's still early toby elliott
yankee org \( neal \) subject sam , \? organization johns hopkins university hcf lines 9 distribution na nntp posting host jhuvms hcf jhu edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 mr millitello listen , sammy , explain buck pitched relief yesterday \? figure one would know better jason miller doctor guy p tell bam bam 've made good thread retire \)
\( sean garrison \) subject bonilla nntp posting host berkeley kstar node net yale edu organization yale univeristy lines 37 article 1993apr17 organpipe uug arizona edu , krueger helium gas uug arizona edu \( theodore r krueger \) wrote n't funny white person calls gets banned year , black person calls someone consequence \? ted ted , 're missing vital point roger lustig pointed previous response , reason schott banned baseball known call think racially biased manner constant basis thoughts affected hiring practices bonilla , hand , found mentioned one word single time known go around , criticizing homosexuals , would different story furthermore , merely athlete n't hire anyone schott dave , former nl umpire admitted homosexual , decided assist protest mets game shea , like , thinks bonilla suspended baseball hoping year 's suspension opinion , 's downright ludicrous rose wfan said , start athletes mentioned derogatory word even single time whatever conditions , 'd probably enough people remaining play three three game , honestly , truly analyze differences two cases bring article , would think 'd reconsider thoughts sean behind bag ! vin scully
mike cunixf cc columbia edu \( michael chen \) subject jack morris nntp posting host cunixf cc columbia edu reply mike cunixf cc columbia edu \( michael chen \) organization columbia university lines 44 article 1993apr19 024222 11181 newshub ariel yorku ca cs902043 ariel yorku ca \( shawn luddington \) writes article 1993apr18 cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) writes article 1993apr18 1210 mnemosyne cs du edu gspira nyx cs du edu \( greg spira \) writes howard wong mindlink bc ca \( howard wong \) writes jack lost bit edge \? worst start jack morris \? uh , jack lost edge 5 years ago , one average year last 5 goes prove better good lucky count good tomorrow lucky seems prone bad starts \( bad finish last year \) \( yes , enjoying every last run gives said morris better signing viola \? \) cheers , valentine hey valentine , n't see boston world series rings fingers damn , morris three probably hall fame future therefore , would say toronto easily made best signing n't tell boston win year wo n't even top 4 division , like 6th shawn gee , never knew valentine made comment viola signing boston gonna bring world series title boston n't think valentine ever said boston win year boy , talk sensitive , insecure toronto fans \) case , think viola would made better signing \? viola younger , left handed \( many left handed starters toronto \? mike mike columbia edu
organization university notre dame office univ computing rvesterm vma cc nd edu subject jewish baseball players \? 1993apr16 asd com lines 11 article 1993apr16 asd com , scott asd com \( scott barman \) says n't ron , former yankee got first base hit designated hitter , jewish \? \? idea , care however , 'd like point blomberg got first plate appearance designated hitter , first walk designated hitter sure , think also got first hit designated hitter bob vesterman
organization university notre dame office univ computing rvesterm vma cc nd edu subject jewish baseball players \? 1qkkodinn5f5 jhunix hcf jhu edu 3r6 world std com lines 10 article 3r6 world std com , eastgate world std com \( mark bernstein \) says \( reminds still serve kosher hot dogs new \? \) yup , things bob vesterman
organization university notre dame office univ computing rvesterm vma cc nd edu subject juggling dodgers lines 26 article netcom com , mss netcom com \( mark singer \) says lasorda lineup pirates friday night , results one might conclude stick changes butler leadoff spot , probably whole season davis wants get speed play 4 4 last night piazza kid everything well well strawberry insists batting cleanup know \? lasorda say , game , 's lineup i'm using i'm batting strawman fourth insists batting cleanup \? true \( note n't think \) , lasorda fired least two reasons 1 \) publicly humiliating players 2 \) knuckling players wishes however , think likely explanation lasorda wanted strawberry bat fourth , hate strawberry bob vesterman
organization university notre dame office univ computing rvesterm vma cc nd edu subject let 's talk phillies 1993apr16 adobe com 1993apr17 mgweed ! mgwhiz att com lines 26 article 1993apr17 mgweed ! mgwhiz att com , prg mgweed ! mgwhiz att com \( phil \) says try edit newsgroup feed one local elementary , schools group students love baseball learning use computers , i'm telling , 's gotten point n't even edit files anymore , read throw trash thanks people think 's wonderful include swear word two signature files , 's really nice read whole article toss sig duh , chop sig \? bob vesterman ps hey kids , take pictures dead presidents parents' wallets mail bob vesterman c dept mathematics university notre dame notre dame , indiana 46556
organization university notre dame office univ computing rvesterm vma cc nd edu subject mlb nba \? lines 15 article 1993apr17 news yale edu , \( sean garrison \) says think players' salaries getting way hand point 're pace become severely detrimental baseball 's future want decrease players' salaries \? want increase salaries \? two equivalent bob vesterman
organization university notre dame office univ computing rvesterm vma cc nd edu subject usa mcweekly stats lines 13 article franjion spot colorado edu , franjion spot colorado edu \( john franjione \) says also , impression reading group bill james elias bunch money grubbing jerks whose mission charge much baseball statistical info bill james \? yeah sure bill james players rating book \? bob vesterman
organization university notre dame office univ computing rvesterm vma cc nd edu subject bosox win ! \( team record 9 3 \) 1993apr18 ncar ucar edu lines 12 article 1993apr18 ncar ucar edu , rsf atd ucar edu \( anthony michael jivoin \) says hawk , red sox definitely chance east year brings class , work ethic leadership park day bad n't bring ability hit , pitch , field run bob vesterman
philly bach udel edu \( robert c hite \) subject let 's talk phillies nntp posting host bach udel edu organization university delaware lines 20 phillies weekend series chicago cubs beating 11 10 wild one wrigley field sunday afternoon phils win three game series , first time phillies lost series young season phils jumped 6 0 lead game thanks 2 john kruk 2 run homers two wes chamberlain homers however danny jackson , phillies middle relief unable hold lead mitch williams entered game phillies leading 8 4 , however candy maldonado hit ninth inning homerun tie 11th , dave hollins hit three run shot , first year push phils ahead stay however , shaky bottom 11th cubs scored 2 runs tying runner base cubs pinch hit randy myers bob \( position players \) myers double play end game phils bring league leading 9 3 record back action tuesday , wednesday , thursday padres
bloch stanford edu \( craig meyer \) subject jack morris organization dso , stanford university x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 27 michael chen \( mike cunixf cc columbia edu \) wrote case , think viola would made better signing \? viola younger , left handed \( many left handed starters toronto \? well , agree viola better signing however , everyone say want lefthanded starters \? understand lefthanded spot relievers , even though usually face righthanded batters lefthanded batters n't understand people insist lefthanded starters , unless park effect \( e g , yankee stadium \) batters mlb righthanded , righthanded starters platoon advantage often lefthanded starters guess one argument lefty starters certain teams may vulnerable lhp 's 's however , probably factor postseason , teams seldom juggle starters reason regular season think want best starters get , regardless whether lefties righties lefthanded starters tend higher era 's righthanded starters , precisely managers go way start inferior lefties \( perhaps platoon advantage \) missing something \? craig
tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) subject jack morris organization cornell univ cs dept , ithaca ny 14853 lines 30 article 1993apr19 024222 11181 newshub ariel yorku ca cs902043 ariel yorku ca \( shawn luddington \) writes hey valentine , n't see boston world series rings fingers yah \? damn , morris three probably hall fame future certainly n't earn last one many games blow world series \? ones started \? therefore , would say toronto easily made best signing oh , yes definitely therefore morris better clemens n't give shit boston alomar , olerud , henke , ward toronto rivera , jack clark , jeff reardon , things would looked little different last fall give credit credit due praise morris makes sick n't tell boston win year wo n't even top 4 division , like 6th i'm willing bet n't finish sixth i'm also willing bet n't finish first give 3 2 odds , i'm willing bet finish ahead blue jays valentine
tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) subject jack morris organization cornell univ cs dept , ithaca ny 14853 lines 33 article senator bedfellow mit edu cmk athena mit edu \( charles kozierok \) writes really valid retort valentine n't red sox trying get morris \? oh , sure , said viola first choice afterwards , expected would say \? lou wanted morris along idiot giving man 40 million play like giving five year old loaded uzi safety question many shots get somebody wise enough take away n't tell boston win year wo n't even top 4 division , like 6th true , wo n't lack contribution viola , cares \? n't see people expect boston finish sixth bottom four teams last year essentially tied boston , seventh place , 73 wins yankees indians , tied fourth place , 76 wins think obvious red sox improved indians tigers basically , red sox stronger year 1b , dh , ss , lf , rf healthier starting pitchers \( far , least \) better relievers see reason n't win 85 games meanwhile , indians shambles tigers still pitching win 20 3 , lose awful lot 7 5 games maybe sox play poorly , win 78 games , finish fifth think third fourth place likely cheers , valentine
tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) subject militello update organization cornell univ cs dept , ithaca ny 14853 distribution usa lines 25 article hydra gatech edu gt0523e prism gatech edu \( michael andre mule \) writes hey ! ! ! yankee fans 've knocking prediction baltimore um many games orioles \? flooded mailbox cries militello 's good , militello 's good , \? \? ! ! noticed got skipped oh strong first outing 's chance columbus , \? please n't tell 're relying guy fourth , fifth , fourth starter brittle pitching staff , currently 's room rotation key impressive april abbott pitching well perez back wickman pitched way rotation , holding spot outstanding performance last time n't poorly yankees find need starter , militello get another chance , 'll wait line valentine
leland stanford edu \( dave \) subject bob knepper damn right ! organization sequoia peripherals , inc lines 51 get sucked \? article 1993apr19 035406 news yale edu \( austin jacobs \) writes n't guys think \? mean , c'mon ! heck women even thinking getting baseball cause many problems assuming 're serious , guess 'd surprised hear us guys n't think would guess tiny fraction 1 folks reading post agree kind doubt even agree i'm going go points one time , , , many anything baseball i'm replying brought pam postema , aaa umpire sued \( suing \? \) baseball grounds sex discrimination n't promoted majors jeez ! look pam postema 's woman , everybody face earth thinks 's great 's getting opportunity ump even watched games iq greater roast beef , 'd see nearly good aaa umpires 've never seen ump game first hand experience ability umpire seen talk shows point seems call balls strikes well umpires knows rulebook better seems missing point 's sees role umpires game , well would n't promote either umpires primary role nothing calling baserunners safe hell , joe lundy could primary function maintain order game , keep game moving , keep players trying kill umpires extremely tough people us , men women ms postema thinks deserves major league umpire command rulebook , think well umpires need command game command rulebook secondary dave succeed world , leland stanford edu enough stupid , must also sequoia peripherals \( 415 \) 967 well mannered voltaire home \( 415 \) 321
demers cs ucsd edu \( david demers \) subject montreal question organization cse dept , uc san diego lines 13 nntp posting host ucsd edu article 1993apr19 oz plymouth edu , k mullin oz plymouth edu \( mully \) writes position mike lansing play \? cannot seem find anywhere thanks ! ! ! ! 1 's shortstop training , 's second \( mostly \) third year expos dave demers demers cs ucsd edu computer science engineering 0114 demers cs ucsd bitnet uc san diego ! ucsd ! cs ! demers la jolla , ca 92093 0114 \( 619 \) 534 0688 , 8187 , fax \( 619 \) 534 7029
demers cs ucsd edu \( david demers \) subject let 's talk phillies organization cse dept , uc san diego lines 17 nntp posting host ucsd edu article 93108 vma cc nd edu , rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes article 1993apr17 mgweed ! mgwhiz att com , prg mgweed ! mgwhiz att com \( phil \) says ps hey kids , take pictures dead presidents parents' wallets mail bob vesterman send shift key dave demers demers cs ucsd edu computer science engineering 0114 demers cs ucsd bitnet uc san diego ! ucsd ! cs ! demers la jolla , ca 92093 0114 \( 619 \) 534 0688 , 8187 , fax \( 619 \) 534 7029
king cogsci ucsd edu \( jonathan king \) subject zane ! ! rescue us simmons ! ! organization university california , san diego lines 120 distribution na nntp posting host cogsci ucsd edu summary oh please , 's way early get upset mamatha devineni ratnam mr47 andrew cmu edu writes far simmons looks like total idiot whatever say think 's 12 games season , i'm going wait bit calling names 2 \) sure simmons ready say told otto impressive win last week otto 's latest debacle restored reputation looks like back '92 form al 's highest era among starters four sake \( ted 's sake \) , hope pitches 3 5 era rest season yeah , right expect dave otto really bad pitcher , idea simmons ever wanted hand , expect release otto n't turn things around pretty fast \( btw , otto 's game score 0 ip 22 , points problem method since otto 's performance infinitely bad , prolonged \) 3 \) tomlin merced bit disappointing still considering considerable amount talent maturity shown first seasons , seem actually gotten little bit worse think merced 's rookie year bit , n't willing give bats \( tomlin starts \) acting \? 4 \) walk well , seems losing end tonight still think walk contract n't walk time bomb stuff whatsoever , league finally realizes , wo n't pretty 8 \) rookie batters well , young surprised bit instant impact , excellent performance n't much surprise think thank n't fast guy signed steve , move threatened bury kevin young minors meanwhile , i'm sure whether simmons signed martin six year free agent 1992 season 9 \) rookie pitchers worse expected , especially twice rotation , 've given \? yikes 10 \) slaught come n't given contract extension last year \? value increased immensely age , least baseball terms useful half life 34 year old injury prone catcher ca n't much longer year 11 \) lonnie smith ! ! well , eric davis signed comparable amount wanted dodger , felt something prove disastrous 1992 n't think chance bucs sign let 's see eric hit better run better field better didnt pirates go eric davis injured davis better healthy lonnie smith certainly n't last year even smith gets big hits year , wo n't asset looked terrible bases field hey , 's skates smith package deal anybody lonnie defense base running \( particularly stage \) real 12 \) management big big zero sauer yet make argument favor revenue sharing seems concerned pleasing idiot danforth preparing team move tampa bay 's goal team ownership , n't see sauer gets zero making boss happy n't know n't said revenue sharing , ca n't comment 13 \) alex cole fiasco stuff deleted ironically , biggest accomplishment tenure getting alex cole really cheap bad gave away expansion draft 's annoying , since leyland seems pushing retain jeff king , probably unavoidable meanwhile , think bigger accomplishments tenure getting value john smiley , trading real prospects veterans stretch last year , drafting well 1992 , letting rookies show something 1993 foley , smith , acquired replacement parts , means even fail n't done serious damage future 14 \) draft picks bonds forget pirates rant rave get picks , issue still appealed mean bucs lost initial arbitration case \? never heard outcome final verdict \? , doesnt convince anyone simmons sauer idiots , nothing else i'm sure idiot case , n't know blame might doug danforth , fact , seriously suspect doug danforth , shown willingness call shots exactly moments gun pointed feet \( btw 've wondered whether latest posts getting site , somebody known e e cummings see , would drop short note \? \) jking
mizar usc edu \( dodger \) subject dodger question organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 31 distribution usa nntp posting host mizar usc edu dodgers shopping harris teams quest left handed pitching far , takers personally , think harris defensive liability , also led team past years hitting double plays , least among leaders showed last year given chance play every day , get job done played one base every day , say third , 'd also improve defensively wallach helped tremendously defense , reed improved defense quite noticeable effect pitching staff astacio martinez recent starts great defensive plays martinez pitched ninth game might seen lifted third past years astacio lasted 7 innings day similar circumstances dodgers turning double plays , keeping balls infield last year piazza also great defense thrown 10 14 batters trying steal least one pick first wallach , clearly , contributed improvement defense offense awful cost dodgers runs n't think bad current average suspect come slump much davis straw seem come dodger
paula koufax cv hp com \( paul andresen \) subject let known nntp posting host koufax cv hp com organization hewlett packard company , corvallis , oregon usa lines 15 article 93104 byuvm bitnet , byuvm bitnet writes would like make everyone aware winning nl west atlanta braves lead wire wire games 4 14 93 houston astros percentage points ahead braves deserve , reason little honor nl west supposed strongest division baseball lost 6 7 east yesterday , astros prevailing stretch farm animal beyond natural length paula koufax cv hp com paul andresen hewlett packard \( 503 \) 750 3511 home 3006 nw mckinley corvallis , 97330 \( 503 \) 752 8424 sabr member since 1979
meaddata com \( doug ritter \) subject expanded nl strike zone \? \( surfeit offense \? \) organization mead data central , dayton oh lines 30 nntp posting host meaddata com article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu \( eric roush \) writes article 1993apr14 cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) writes wo n't really able say anything least another couple weeks far looks like season ! \( might umps strike zone \? \) watching braves tbs , would said strike zone nl expanded season specifically , appears strike zone moved belt yeah , announcers commented also , also perception however , strike zone n't climbed way letters 's like little ways letters perceptions \? judging way pitchers performed thus far , appears zone squeezed size grape 1 2 \) douglas n ritter meaddata com life short ride hard ! ! uunet ! meaddata !
brian meaddata com \( brian curran \) subject 've found secret ! organization mead data central , dayton oh lines 19 distribution world nntp posting host taurus meaddata com article 1993apr15 cs cornell edu , tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) writes red sox first place \? eight games season , already two wins clemens viola clemens starts tonight , three days rest huh \? clemens pitched last saturday , giving usual four days rest 's \? sox going four man rotation \? hesketh used relief last night \? brian curran mead data central brian meaddata com n't think 've asked catch temperature age carlton fisk , chicago white sox catcher , playing 40 degree april ball game
tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) subject pleasant yankee surprises organization cornell univ cs dept , ithaca ny 14853 lines 33 article 1993apr15 sarah albany edu albnyvms bitnet writes article 120399 netnews upenn edu , sepinwal mail sas upenn edu \( alan sepinwall \) writes 1 \) spike owen sure , 's hitting like crazy , guy cannot field save life ! said brought provide defense \? velarde , stankiewicz , even silvestri better defensively owen remember 's still early look offense tail , defense improve \( hopefully \) rep heard either last year , last 5 years , something like third highest fielding percentage among major league shortstops behind c r tony \( i'm gonna help sorry mets team \) fernandez agree though looked impressive field thus far owen one error far , believe seriously harm done field owen cleanly play ball reaches fine fielding percentage , like always problem n't reach anything n't hit straight ! would n't quite obvious problem playing next kelly gruber robin ventura third baseman yankees wade boggs \( moved across diamond last year \) ! 've seen one game , abbott 's first start , three balls hit left side would stopped quality defensive players instead charged hits abbott cheers , valentine
snichols adobe com \( sherri nichols \) subject braves pitching updatedir organization adobe systems incorporated lines 13 article 1993apr15 1 acad drake edu sbp002 acad drake edu writes second starter seems quality pitchers take mound , teams score less runs team scores runs wins puts team better pitching advantage \( providing stop opposing team scoring runs \) low scoring game would clearly benefit braves clear 'd certainly rather team winning 4 1 games 2 1 games 2 1 game , luck going play much bigger role 4 1 game sherri nichols snichols adobe com
timlin spot colorado edu \( michael timlin \) subject expanded nl strike zone \? \( surfeit offense \? \) nntp posting host spot colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 11 jrogoff scott skidmore edu \( jay rogoff \) writes impression watching mets rockies umpires calling strikes belt , , far letters would nice case umps saw weekend boxscores , knew pitchers needed help would watching sunrise \) mike timlin timlin spot colorado edu
stlouis unixg ubc ca \( phill st louis \) subject billy taylor brave jay \? organization university british columbia , vancouver , b c , canada lines 8 distribution world nntp posting host unixg ubc ca anyone know billy taylor \? richmond syracuse \? taken jays rule v draft , kept roster baseball weekly said demoted syracuse , toronto paper indicated braves took back atlanta fan , anyone reading , knows \? thanks psl
steph cs uiuc edu \( dale stephenson \) subject defensive averages 1988 1992 , third base summary career defensive averages third organization university illinois , dept comp sci , urbana , il lines 68 compiled last five defensive average reports , career das individual players reports stats courtesy sherri nichols players listed descending order third basemen name 1988 1989 1990 1991 1992 88 92 mitchell , kevin 690 0 690 gonzales , rene 685 0 685 leius , scott 653 680 0 672 pendleton , terry 692 685 631 689 634 0 667 ventura , robin 641 647 677 0 657 wallach , tim 728 674 600 630 665 0 657 gruber , kelly 717 657 580 630 664 0 650 pagliarulo , mike 631 575 744 0 649 harris , lance 642 652 0 648 howell , jack 656 666 609 0 647 williams , matt 633 653 656 0 647 caminiti , ken 675 630 653 596 0 642 sabo , chris 751 626 616 613 575 0 642 gaetti , gary 616 638 655 632 0 637 , steve 647 616 647 681 599 0 635 , luis 617 643 637 0 632 pecota , bill 629 0 629 schmidt , mike 628 0 628 riles , ernie 627 0 627 boggs , wade 643 659 550 653 634 0 626 martinez , 621 645 599 0 624 molitor , paul 633 617 0 624 phillips , tony 623 0 623 nl average 643 625 602 623 603 0 619 , tom 616 0 616 king , jeff 616 0 616 , kevin 654 583 593 635 0 616 al average 641 612 604 620 602 0 615 jacoby , brook 624 621 600 597 0 613 hansen , dave 611 0 611 law , vance 635 576 0 611 magadan , dave 609 0 609 jefferies , greg 606 0 606 , mike 606 0 606 zeile , todd 614 593 0 605 baerga , carlos 604 0 604 hayes , chris 601 622 606 574 0 602 , scott 597 0 597 hamilton , j 611 584 0 595 kelly , pat 595 0 595 lyons , steve 590 0 590 , ken 590 0 590 johnson , howard 628 549 611 573 0 588 bell , buddy 587 0 587 lansford , carney 620 578 594 550 0 587 presley , jim 643 595 530 0 584 , rick 584 0 584 , cal 583 575 0 580 hollins , dave 577 0 577 sheffield , gary 584 567 0 575 blauser , jeff 573 0 573 fryman , travis 571 0 571 , jim 570 0 570 gomez , lee 551 542 0 546 palmer , dean 520 0 520 dale j stephenson \( steph cs uiuc edu \) grad student large considered good look wise , especially overburdened information j golden kimball
luriem alleg edu \( michael lurie \) liberalizer subject time greats team organization allegheny college lines 33 article 1993apr14 iscsvax uni edu iscsvax uni edu writes dave winfield 's name go sentence aaron , robinson , ott terms peak , repeat peak years , winfield done batted 340 's season , drove 100 runs many times row injury consistently hit near 300 knocking 35 home runs even looked dave winfield 's slugging percentage three 4 best seasons still think dave one better time , obviously best one best athletes play baseball hit line drives hit scoreboard left center field , feat np one done new stadium heck , 2 3 people hit green fence since remodeled could field , bullet arm , hitting comparable many seasons gary , barry bonds last season older , slowing , takes lift ball park , always hero , idol nothing could make happier george inviting dave back bronx play last year ball yankees course , likely refuse offer , knows \? 3 million dollars , 'll play heck giving 2 5 million year , dave dh , leaving time play field tartabull injured , nokes mass traded , give yanks inspiration leadership sweep new age yankee domination michael lurie
luriem alleg edu \( michael lurie \) liberalizer subject pleasant yankee surprises organization allegheny college lines 22 article 120399 netnews upenn edu sepinwal mail sas upenn edu \( alan sepinwall \) writes pleasant \( pleasant \) surprises 1993 edition bronx bombers far 4 \) wickman friend made comparison wickman jack morris never impressive stats always find way win \( although morris seems losing ability \) figured wickman would least important part steve sax trade \( best trade since got ruth guy \) , maybe winding good middle reliever like 've seen far n't pitch pretty , gets job done actually , kind liked trade trade rookie year , snow , mattingly first another 8 years , bother
luriem alleg edu \( michael lurie \) liberalizer subject pleasant yankee surprises organization allegheny college lines 9 article 120399 netnews upenn edu sepinwal mail sas upenn edu \( alan sepinwall \) writes farr 's era 20s , howe 's infinite \( n't think thing possible , \) actually , according usa today , howe 1 inning , maybe incorrect excellent report
luriem alleg edu \( michael lurie \) liberalizer subject yankee fears organization allegheny college lines 9 'll tell one thing steve howe farr much better worst pitcher yankee pitching think talking 'll post answers e mail use reply post 're answers , e mailing post final results one particular horrid pitcher mind
luriem alleg edu \( michael lurie \) liberalizer subject pleasant yankee surprises organization allegheny college lines 7 article 120399 netnews upenn edu sepinwal mail sas upenn edu \( alan sepinwall \) writes thanks alan , well thought even written entertaining style
hasch jhuvms hcf jhu edu \( bruce hasch \) subject dave kingman hall fame organization johns hopkins university hcf lines 132 distribution na nntp posting host jhuvms hcf jhu edu summary dave winfield marginal ballplayer yeah , right keywords hall fame , winfield , kingman , murray , joe lundy , \) news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article 1993apr15 news yale edu , \( steve tomassi \) writes hi , baseball fans ! say \? n't think deserves \? mean , heck , dave winfield \( ho hum \) seriously considered , lee smith \( ha \) , n't give dave kingman chance \? darrell evans ! yeah , yeah ! hall fame takes , take eddie murray jeff reardon oh , yeah dave winfield marginal player guy n't hit lick , negligible power , crap fielder staying power dave winfield , entering \( believe \) 20th big league season , still damn decent hitter admittedly , defense slipped great deal , prime , powerful arm great range take look stats n't know even begin make argument winfield kingman similar players kingman one dimension power hitter could n't field , ran like , hit low average \( though , remember right , obp n't hideous \) , \( consider things important \) absolute dick eddie murray \? yup , best 1st baseman 80 's know mvp votes conducted mediots , given got mvp deserved 1983 , seems n't overrated media lee smith \? hmmmm one 's actually pretty close 's solid , dependable career closer despite pitching nasty parks \( wrigley , fenway \) 'd take closer look stats \( 's \) , seems lee arthur hof caliber make legitimate point hof relievers , simply racking lot saves n't mean whole hell lot blow bunch , simply minnesota boston \( month \) atlanta used reardon closer longer one , equalizer racked impressive number saves way hof , imho darrell evans \? nice career , actually bit underrated \( kinda like ted simmons , imho \) , hof'er well , case , sick tired \( mostly sick \) everybody giving hall fame consideration players today 's standards , marginal ask hell playing game marginal \? honestly , ozzie smith robin yount n't belong 're shortstops hung around long time big deal let 's little selective , huh \? stop handing honors liberally save guys really deserve face , something , wait goddamn minute ozzie smith absolutely redefined position shortstop defense good 's something along lines 10 gold gloves , gold gloves mediot biased , good argument could made larkin deserved one two ozzie 's recent awards , usually , tempered someone else early 80 's getting gold gloves ozzie deserved earlier career ozzie 's offense , ask \? good obp , great speed numbers , park , career , depressed offense , admittedly , power \( 'cept tom \) , still , definite asset offensively yount \? 3 , 000 hits , mvp two different positions , uh huh , real stiff '82 one great years ever player recent memory , probably ranks behind peak seasons wagner banks , far ss numbers go 's clear hof'er , imho n't done , little prestige hall fame anymore certain individuals believe steve garvey jack morris potential candidates , absurdity apparent gee , guys even compare likely future hall famers like kirby puckett nolan ryan \? well , far garvey goes , 're right garvey mediot candidate , pushed winning attitude \( minor factor , one \) , great defense \( errors , admittedly , range tree \) garvey n't hof \? 've said lot nasty things last year , mostly response mediots woofers talk morris' ability win nothing morris' ability pitch toronto score tons runs point , morris average pitcher \( although early returns '93 , may damned close done \) , fairness , morris dominant pitcher 80 's tiger teams 1984 \( obviously \) great year detroit , rest decade , team generally contention , favorites morris' career numbers quite good , worthy hof consideration ryan \? course , careful guarantee someone throw back earlier logic yount smith shortstops hung around long time , nolan never cy damn , 's pitcher hung around 99 years w l record mediocre \( course , nolan 's hof'er \) puck \? probably , although 's got play reasonably well years \( 10 years , even good ones , n't enough make hof , likely \) said , believe puckett make hof , pretty much regardless rest career turns \( barring something really tragic sudden \) 's popular media fans , legitimately one best cf 's game since joined league 've always liked guy , hope make , end , think puck make , really , 's early sell debate comes rather frequently net , , believe , never tire 's interesting subject 's top head list potential team probably left couple guys , feel free follow wo n't consider anyone started playing 1985 \( , early tell \) note active players , i'm counting recent baltimore cal ripken \( lock , even gehrig 's record stands \) boston roger clemens \( might lock already , amazing \) , dawson \( \? \) detroit alan lou whitaker \( possibilities \) milwaukee robin yount \( discussed earlier \) new york wade boggs \( possibly \) , mattingly \( long shot \) toronto paul molitor jack morris \( possibilities \) kansas city george brett \( lock \) minnesota kirby \( early tell \) , winfield \( lock \) oakland \( lock \) , mcgwire \( early \) , rickey \( lock \) , welch \( long shot \) texas mighty nolan early consider canseco strange \) cubs sandberg \( lock \) st louis ozzie \( lock \) , lee smith \( probably \) new york murray \( almost lock \) , saberhagen \( obviously , 's got regain past form \) certainly , vince coleman , despite 'll tell \) los angeles butler , strawberry , long shots san diego tony gwynn \( pretty good shot \) colorado dale murphy \( good shot \) , ryan bowen \( see 're awake \) get flames top head list , 's probably deserving candidates left , , n't include barry bonds , clark , atlanta starting pitcher , frank thomas , canseco , mcgriff , etc considered guys started playing 1985 \) e mail post , almost fear may started bruce hasch hasch jhuvms hcf jhu edu sell team , eli ! ! hitter good fastball hitter , mean throw bad fastball \? larry andersen
scott asd com \( scott barman \) subject best homeruns organization american software development corp , west babylon , ny distribution na lines 22 darryl strawberry 's moon shots fun ! hit high far home runs actually ran 'd rounding second base time landed used say file flight plan bull durham came changed \) homers pulled n't go high , microwave home runs microwave , got outta hurry ! game 1988 , came bench flu second pitch send rocket right field line n't even allow bob murphy luxury home run call story went stayed clubhouse , mets two two johnson sent pinch hit came clubhouse saying one swing go home hit homer , ran bases , went straight clubhouse shower go home days scott barman mets mailing list \( feed following shell \) scott asd com mail mets request asd com ! subscribe let 's go mets ! !
scott asd com \( scott barman \) subject organization american software development corp , west babylon , ny lines 29 article 1993apr8 midway uchicago edu midway uchicago edu writes question media seem embrace theme death baseball strongly \? seen articles similar vein chicago tribune sports editorials tv maybe baseball business responsible fiscal aspects game preach doom allegedly intelligent people seem predict bad times , losing money , alarming rate , 's going increased degradation product produce could imagine ibm , problems , promoting way major league baseball \? stock would unthinkable depths \( far \) would happen gm \? would gm admitted cutting corners producing inferior product alleged labor problems \? think shows lack confidence people run game anyway , media says things , inevitably leads owners trying quick fixes like increasing play offs satisfy television trying play drum interest forget word three divisions wild card done deal decided soon since negotiations networks also begin soon scott barman mets mailing list \( feed following shell \) scott asd com mail mets request asd com ! subscribe let 's go mets ! !
ns1 cc lehigh edu \( john stephen randolph \) subject time best players organization lehigh university lines 198 article 1993apr13 bsu ucs , 00mbstultz leo bsuvc bsu edu writes 've recently working project determine greatest players respective sources total baseball , historical abstract , ballplayers \( biography \) , word mouth , \( biased \) opinions feel free comment , suggest , flame \( whatever \) tried objective possible , using statistical data time 's sake \( judged rel ba , adj ops , total average , fielding range runs , total player rating \( total baseball \) , stolen bases \( curiosity 's sake \) , 150 g , years played mvp 1b career 1 \) lou gehrig 2 \) foxx 3 \) eddie murray 4 \) hank greenberg 5 \) johnny mize 6 \) willie mccovey 7 \) dick allen 8 \) harmon 9 \) kieth hernandez 's e except c , people named keith 10 \) bill terry 11 \) george 2b 1 \) eddie collins 2 \) joe morgan 3 \) jackie robinson 4 \) rogers hornsby 5 \) nap 6 \) rhyne sandberg learn spell 's ryne 7 \) charlie 8 \) rod carew 9 \) bobby 10 \) bobby ss 1 \) wagner 2 \) cal ripken jr 3 \) john lloyd 4 \) ozzie smith 5 \) robin yount 6 \) joe cronin 7 \) vaughan 8 \) luke 9 \) ernie banks 10 \) lou boudreau 3b 1 \) mike schmidt 2 \) ed matthews 3 \) george brett 4 \) wade boggs 5 \) ron santo 6 \) brooks robinson 7 \) frank baker 8 \) darrell evans 9 \) pie 10 \) ray dandridge brooks 6 \? think would least ahead ron santo c 1 \) josh gibson 1a \) darren daulton mvp 1993 2 \) yogi 3 \) johnny bench 4 \) mickey cochrane 5 \) bill dickey 6 \) 7 \) roy campanella 8 \) gary carter 9 \) carlton fisk 10 \) lf 1 \) ted williams 2 \) stan musial 3 \) rickey henderson 4 \) carl yastrzemski 5 \) barry bonds 6 \) tim raines 7 \) joe jackson 8 \) ralph kiner 9 \) willie 10 \) al simmons cf 1 \) willie mays 2 \) ty cobb 3 \) speaker 4 \) mickey mantle 5 \) joe dimaggio 6 \) oscar charleston 7 \) andre dawson 8 \) duke snider 9 \) kirby puckett 10 \) dale murphy rf 1 \) babe ruth 2 \) hank aaron 3 \) frank robinson 4 \) mel ott 5 \) al kaline 6 \) reggie jackson 7 \) dave winfield 8 \) roberto clemente 9 \) tony gwynn 10 \) pete rose p 1 \) walter johnson 2 \) lefty grove 3 \) cy young 4 \) christy mathewson 5 \) pete alexander 6 \) tom seaver 7 \) roger clemens 8 \) bob gibson 9 \) warren 10 \) paige 11 \) juan 12 \) whitey ford 13 \) bob 14 \) jim palmer 15 \) steve carlton overall \( estimated \) 1 \) ruth 2 \) williams 3 \) mays 4 \) cobb 5 \) aaron 6 \) wagner 7 \) speaker 8 \) schmidt 9 \) w johnson 10 \) mantle 11 \) musial 12 \) dimaggio 13 \) f robinson 14 \) grove 15 \) henderson 16 \) j gibson 17 \) c young 18 \) collins 19 \) foxx 20 \) mathewson 21 \) alexander 22 \) morgan 23 \) j robinson 24 \) hornsby 25 \) ott 26 \) seaver 27 \) clemens 28 \) matthews 29 \) 30 \) yastrzemski 31 \) kaline 32 \) brett 33 \) gibson 34 \) 35 \) charleston 36 \) 37 \) ripken jr 38 \) lloyd 39 \) raines 40 \) sandberg 41 \) 42 \) smith 43 \) yount 44 \) ba bonds 45 \) paige 46 \) r jackson 47 \) 48 \) ford 49 \) 50 \) boggs , feel free comment mike , bsu
uxa cso uiuc edu \( doc \) subject evil smile face cubs beat braves organization university illinois urbana lines 29 boy , hats cubs fan actually muster courage put braves fans mean , braves done gone two consecutive world series also , cubs fan , really hand braves fans capable driving crazy infernal cheer however , protest anyone saying cubs fans stupid way see , either i'm stupid acknowledge , observation plain wrong might us confused bear fans \) anyway , two weeks ago everyone saying cubs would finish last division \( even behind florida \? ! \? sheesh ! \) people predicting braves clean respective division well , 're ten games season people little less vocal wonder well , way see , east grabs , whoever wants going take , exception florida every team seems good batting pitching , philly presently leading pack , point , cubs take east , 'll without benefit competent manager however , pains say , pennant going go west get chest doc benefit
ez027993 dale ucdavis edu \( gary built like villanueva huckabay \) subject jose canseco 's swing 1992 vs 1986 organization julio vigil society distribution na lines 50 going videos last night studying 1986 1992 videotapes jose canseco proved interesting enlightening 's analysis jose canseco , circa sep '92 , jose canseco , circa june 1986 1 's much period needs lose 20 pounds , gain bulk 2 bat speed absolutely vanished conservatively , 'd say 's lost 4 7 bat speed , 's huge amount speed 3 open stance killing note acts sort like brian downing way open start , closes ball released downing could without significant head movement canseco ca n't also , note canseco n't always close stance way sometimes , hips open , sometimes , 're fully closed without good starting point , 's hard make adjustments swing would , jose \? aside away large sum cash could never touch , 'd never work , 'd entire swing first , minimize movement swing close stance , severely cut take swing hopefully , cut time need swing , allow move freely second , drop 20 pounds cut weight work third , relax wrists cost power , find 1988 stroke , concentrate keeping back shoulder , rolling wrists strike zone , hit line drives strength enough line drives get park canseco 's open stance resulting bad habits result back problems , 'll baseball three years , could still hit 600 hr gary huckabay think 's loud enough , hole \? movie rights well , 're trouble hearing , sir , available thru 'd happy turn n't ted frank know many people age liked king 's x
paul csd4 csd uwm edu \( paul r krueger \) subject brewer bullpen rocked organization computing services division , university wisconsin milwaukee lines 30 distribution world nntp posting host 129 89 7 4 originator paul csd4 csd uwm edu second straight game , california scored ton late runs crush six runs 8th 12 5 win monday five 8th six 9th 12 2 win yesterday jamie pitched seven strong innings , , austin , lloyd took part mockery bullpen yesterday 's numbers \? pitched three scoreless innings 's era 0 75 next lowest staff 5 14 ouch ! n't look much better hitters hamilton batting 481 , thon hitting 458 seven rbi next highest three next best hitter 267 vaughn , team 's hr , 238 another ouch looking stats , 's hard see team 2 5 fact , 2 5 n't sound bad 're averaging three runs game giving 6 6 game still , 's early things undoubtedly get better offense come around , bullpen major worry , austin gave brewers great middle relief last year lloyd , , , , austin pick pace team successful milwaukee number games last year middle relief either held small leads kept small deficits place starters okay , defense alright hitting come around , bullpen big question mark news , nilsson yesterday , william sent tim picked montreal today 's game california cancelled
baseball catch fever scd ucar edu \( gregg walters \) subject ryan dl organization scientific computing divison ncar boulder , co lines 18 heard minutes ago radio , denver nolan ryan knee , miss 2 5 weeks rockies \( nied \) lead mets \( gooden \) 4 0 7th runs first inning gregg baseball ncar ucar edu cr cr colorado rockies
punjabi leland stanford edu \( sanjeev punjabi \) subject fred mcgriff padres become free agent \? organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa lines 1
traven pitt edu \( neal traven \) subject braves pitching updatedir lines 22 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 dave \( pts mot com \) wrote article adobe com , snichols adobe com \( sherri nichols \) writes every single piece evidence find points major league baseball 50 offense , 50 defense run scored important run prevented certainly passes common sense test , statistical evidence say percent defense pitching percent fielding \? 'd really like know btw , sherri , thanks da data find fascinating one chapters palmer thorn 's titled 44 baseball , ' implying fielding 6 determine \? beats 's long , long time since read one also separate offense batting baserunning , split probably somewhere around 49 5 0 5 neal traven pitt edu 're young , traven vms cis pitt edu immature forever larry andersen
kbos carina unm edu \( k mitchell bose \) subject tigers organization university new mexico , albuquerque lines 9 nntp posting host carina unm edu \( see sig \) kurt bose \( daisy , rose \) kbos carina unm edu help cleanse r b mindless woofing ! whenever someone site posts article subject form team ! ! ! ! ! ! , simply look directory , hunt , beat senseless ! easy , fun , !
ragraca vela acs oakland edu \( randy graca \) subject sparky anderson gets win 2000 , tigers beat 's organization oakland university , rochester , michigan , u lines 36 nntp posting host vela acs oakland edu manager sparky anderson gets 2 , career win moments ago , tigers completed two game sweep oakland 's tiger stadium beating 's 3 2 highlights r h e oakland 2 9 0 detroit 3 7 1 chad scored barnes 1st rbi double bottom ninth none dennis give tigers victory barnes also rbi single score tie score ninth , also \( sp \? \) 's got runs rbi single mcgwire 1st solo homer sierra 6th deer doubled home kirk gibson 7th tiger run john doherty pitched another strong game tigers , lasting seventh inning relieved bolton david haas 8th , haas got win bobby witt started 's , replaced 6th , followed goose 8th , finally 9th doherty gave 's runs , witt gave first tiger run gave last two post game interview \( wjr radio detroit \) , sparky anderson said one times 's gotten emotional managing career big moment , i'm sure us tiger fans unanimously happy way get number 2 , 000 ! considering circumstances , think might appropriate say woof ! go tigers ! randy
rsmith strobe atc olivetti com \( russ smith \) subject jose canseco 's swing 1992 vs 1986 distribution na organization olivetti atc cupertino ca , usa lines 68 article ucdavis edu ez027993 dale ucdavis edu \( gary built like villanueva huckabay \) writes 's analysis jose canseco , circa sep '92 , jose canseco , circa june 1986 1 's much period needs lose 20 pounds , gain bulk 've saying least 2 years even 's conditioning guru told jose carrying much weight losing would help back although n't one second believe jose used steroids , back problems similar problems alot steroid users experience simply carrying much weight frame \( see jeff ex textbook example \) , imho jose big frame 2 bat speed absolutely vanished conservatively , 'd say 's lost 4 7 bat speed , 's huge amount speed ca n't imagine estimate bat speed , pretty obvious jose missing fastballs used hit , likely due back 3 open stance killing note acts sort like brian downing way open start , closes ball released downing could without significant head movement canseco ca n't also , note canseco n't always close stance way sometimes , hips open , sometimes , 're fully closed without good starting point , 's hard make adjustments swing n't know , even open stance first came 's , problems might pre back problems , quick enough cover deficiencies stance caused , 's lost enough bat speed stance hurts old saying 're hot trigger mechanism , 're cold , hitch first , minimize movement swing close stance , severely cut take swing hopefully , cut time need swing , allow move freely biggest problem imho never found stance 's comfortable months changes stance much , loses track strike zone wednesday 's night game , clearly mad strike calls corners looked pretty good think longer knows strike zone really 's changed stance much i'm also bit concerned 's got palmer gonzalez hitting homeruns , 'll become competitive , swing even harder screw even worse larussa always said canseco 's famous batting practice homer shows harm good encouraged bad hitting habits russ smith n't know anything x 's , know george assistant coach
traven pitt edu \( neal traven \) subject 1964 phillies deja vu \? lines 25 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 robert c hite \( philly bach udel edu \) wrote think problems mainly arose manager gene 's managing pitching staff stretch , abused jim bunning , chris short , robin roberts \( think three \) pitching 2 days rest quite time time hit last 2 weeks season , obviously none guys ounce left arm oh well roberts long gone probably oriole 1964 maybe colt 45 3rd starter art mahaffey , previous year 's ace dennis bennett 4th starter indeed 6 5 12 go , final two games horrid 10 loss streak final game victory \( bunning 's 19th win , memory serves \) kept reds tying title phils 1 game behind cards , giants \( \? \) another game back mets could n't hold early lead cards final sunday , would 3 way tie bad could n't saved 15 runs scored saturday crushed st louis neal traven pitt edu 're young , traven vms cis pitt edu immature forever larry andersen
brian austin andrew cmu edu subject tigers organization freshman , h ss general , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 4 nntp posting host po4 andrew cmu edu reply 93104 bitnet basically agree , tigers favorite team actually , pitching might actually better year last \( 's saying hole lot \) 'bout home opener tuesday ! ! way , sparky goes win 2 , 000 today
subject hal mcrae rbd flash ece uc edu \( bobby davis \) organization university cincinnati nntp posting host flash ece uc edu lines 18 dak988s vma smsu edu writes hal mcrae worst manager baseball n't seen enough games judge tactics , may point 've never seen guy waste talent like one best raw talent staffs league , 's still finding way lose imo , royals n't chance win pennant even mcrae suddenly began john mcgraw ok , decent pitchers offense consists bums like lind mcreynolds mcrae hill brett , 're going finish 500 unless mcgraw brings christy mathewson back 'd say hard evaluate manager hitters suck bob davis rbd thor ece uc edu
vb30 lafibm lafayette edu \( vb30 \) subject jewish baseball players \? organization lafayette college lines 10 originator news nntp posting host lafibm wondering friend talking day , \( reason \) trying come names jewish baseball players , past present n't able come much , except sandy koufax , \( somebody \) stankowitz , maybe john lowenstein anyone come know sounds pretty lame racking brains , humor us thanks help thanks bobby
sepinwal mail sas upenn edu \( alan sepinwall \) subject wfan organization university pennsylvania , school arts sciences lines 54 nntp posting host mail sas upenn edu article news udel edu philly ravel udel edu \( robert c hite \) writes article 1993apr15 3551 virginia edu jja2h virginia edu \( \) writes one listen wfan \? know talking , sports radio new york clear night signal reaches east coast particular , want know len berman mike lupica 's show go school virginia ca n't listen day wondering 're right signal strong live west philadelphia , get fan almost perfectly 's sports fans dream \( especially person ny wants hear teams 's away school \) lupica berman , 's turned lupica , berman neither wanted work full four hour show , ed coleman dave old four hour slot broken two seperate two hour show lupica 10 12 , berman 12 2 happen suck comparison eddie dave come back , guys ! fan okay sports radio station , n't come close ultimate sports radio , 610 wip philadelphia signal might powerful , stations new york feel obligated everyone else 's airwaves bunch hoodlum mets fans complaining 24 hours day wip took two best sports jockeys , jody macdonald steve fredericks 610 wip sports talk 5 30 till midnight , check anytime within hours philadelphia i'm mistaken , wip highest sports talk ratings nation \? like said , live philly , hear fan wip whenever want cannot stand wip n't loathe philly sports teams phillies favorite nl team \( yanks favorite al \) , eagles n't bad either two big problems 1 \) total emphasis home teams , especially eagles unlike fan hosts , least answer question town team caller asks , wip hosts seem clue team n't play broad street also , fans periodic sports updates \( every 20 minutes \) gives sports news scores around country 's rare hear town score reported wip 2 \) hosts exception jody macdonald , miss days fan , none hosts really seems broad knowledge sport good air presence worst gary cobb , seems hired solely basis used play eagles anyway , 's two cents whole fan vs wip battle alan
niguma ug cs dal ca \( gord niguma \) subject notes jays vs indians series nntp posting host ug cs dal ca organization math , stats cs , dalhousie university , halifax , ns , canada distribution na lines 22 andy bgsu edu klopfens andy bgsu edu \( bruce klopfenstein \) writes cmk athena mit edu \( charles kozierok \) writes article 1993apr13 195301 csd newshost stanford edu nlu xenon stanford edu \( nelson lu \) writes guess line ba obp slg ab h 2b 3b hr bb x 310 405 427 571 177 27 8 8 87 312 354 455 657 205 32 1 20 35 love alomar fans left rbis list give break ! alomar fans left rbi fans runs list dependant team \( large extent \) frank thomas hit first , 'd lose lot rbi 's anyways many 2nd place hitters known drive 100 runs \? n't happen often unlikely devon white 's 300 obp front gord niguma \( fav player john olerud \)
niguma ug cs dal ca \( gord niguma \) subject notes jays vs indians series nntp posting host ug cs dal ca organization math , stats cs , dalhousie university , halifax , ns , canada distribution na lines 25 fix andy bgsu edu klopfens andy bgsu edu \( bruce klopfenstein \) writes dtate pitt edu \( david tate \) writes klopfens andy bgsu edu \( bruce klopfenstein \) said love alomar fans left rbis list course left rbis 're comparing alomar individual baerga individual , individual stats count give break ! forgot runs scored players stealing home , rbi n't count anything mistake oh , oh , know 's going happen n't ! gord niguma \( fav player john olerud \)
pablo jhunix hcf jhu edu \( pablo iglesias \) subject jewish baseball players \? organization homewood academic computing , johns hopkins university , baltimore , md , usa lines 24 nntp posting host jhunix hcf jhu edu article 15apr93 14691229 0062 lafibm lafayette edu vb30 lafibm lafayette edu \( vb30 \) writes wondering friend talking day , \( reason \) trying come names jewish baseball players , past present n't able come much , except sandy koufax , \( somebody \) stankowitz , maybe john lowenstein anyone come know sounds pretty lame racking brains , humor us thanks help thanks bobby hank greenberg would famous , jewish faith actually affected play \( missing late season world series games yom kippur \) pablo iglesias pi ruth ece jhu edu
texdude cs1 bradley edu \( philip allen \) subject ryan rumor article cs1 texdude organization bradley university lines 12 nntp posting host cs1 bradley edu nolan ryan hurt right knee 4th inning rangers orioles game last night 'll surgery , best , keep dl two five weeks almost convinced rotation would stay healthy year phil allen texdude cs1 bradley edu
dan llnl gov \( dan \) subject need software baseball stats article distribution world organization lawrence livermore national laboratory lines 10 nntp posting host llnl gov i'm looking software \( hopefully free runs unix box \) keep track statistics company softball team \( batting avg etc \) know please post respond e mail many thanks dan llnl gov
steph cs uiuc edu \( dale stephenson \) subject notes jays vs indians series organization university illinois , dept comp sci , urbana , il distribution na lines 38 andy bgsu edu klopfens andy bgsu edu \( bruce klopfenstein \) writes kime mongoose torolab ibm com \( edward kim \) writes would tend call offensive contributions even , alomar wins hands defensive capabilities i'm talking number errors nobody \( including lind ! \) range second base ca n't recall recent past anyone turning double play better alomar well , n't look stats \? baerga may best defensive second baseman league , 's damn good check stats dps last year see according defensive average stats posted sherri , baerga highest percentage dps turned league , alomar worst however , alomar higher defensive average would better \? using alomar 's opportunities \( 469 , 73 possible double plays \) alomar 332 groundouts turned 18 dps baerga would \( da dp \) 328 groundouts 35 dps using baerga 's \( 545 , 99 possible double plays \) alomar would \( da dp \) 386 groundouts 25 dps baerga 381 groundouts 47 dps baerga looks better , though 's possible dp would lower different ss baerga consistently turn twice many double plays , however \? alomar established high level defense , baerga would bet alomar better next year , last year baerga good overall dale j stephenson \( steph cs uiuc edu \) grad student large considered good look wise , especially overburdened information j golden kimball
morgan ucs mun ca \( james \) subject nl stats organization memorial university newfoundland lines 9 doug , stats great ! help immensely tried e mail comments mail server recognize address could e mail info get e mail \? thanks ! jim \( morgan ucs mun ca \)
falcon cs mcgill ca \( scot hughes \) subject hate mention acker , keywords acker , orioles , \? nntp posting host binkley cs mcgill ca organization none distribution na lines 32 article jhuvms hcf jhu edu hasch jhuvms hcf jhu edu \( bruce hasch \) writes article 1993apr14 hpcvaac cv hp com , paula koufax cv hp com \( paul andresen \) writes feel might causing bad karma , know ack man still organized baseball \? glad asked ! ! ack man , nine relatives , currently baltimore orioles pitching staff personally , believe evil real 's staff , currently process mussina , sutcliffe , mcdonald , olson , ack man apparently alien life form , much like pod people planet mars , take form \( ability remains , however \) ack people spotted many teams date , appears orioles staff \( mentioned \) expos bullpen \( barnes , walton , , \) prime target apparently john wetteland ack people spring training due fact system rejected takeover , dl ever since contact authorities ! evil plot must stopped ! \( ack people keep jack morris juan guzman , though enjoy watching toronto fans suffer much want guys returned normal \) scot scot hughes department chemical engineering expos '93 ! falcon cs mcgill ca mcgill university , montreal , quebec witty saying
subject mcrae \( torre worst manager \? \) scott mccall com \( scott davis \) reply scott mccall com \( scott davis \) organization mccall pattern co , manhattan , ks , usa nntp posting host nntp posting user scott lines 18 article dak988s vma smsu edu ext , dak988s vma smsu edu writes gt7469a prism gatech edu \( brian r landmann \) writes joe torre worst manager baseball brian , distressed cardinal fan hal mcrae worst manager baseball 've never seen guy waste talent like one best raw talent staffs league , 's still finding way lose 'll surprised makes next 2 weeks , unless drastic improvement made kc \( \? \) news report said mcrae really batting coach manager reason took job whatever reason , royals need new manager late scott davis scott mccall com mccall pattern company \( uucp ! ! depot ! mccall ! scott \) 615 mccall road \( 800 \) 255 , kansas \( 913 \) 776 manhattan , ks , usa
edo casbah acns nwu edu \( edward \) subject notes jays vs indians series nntp posting host acns nwu edu organization northwestern university , evanston illinois distribution na lines 41 article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu \( david tate \) writes substituting irony brains , \( bruce klopfenstein \) said dtate pitt edu \( david tate \) writes course left rbis 're comparing alomar individual baerga individual , individual stats count forgot runs scored players stealing home , rbi n't count anything uh , right also forgot ca n't get rbi \( barring hr \) nobody base fraction runs come solo hr \? runs scored happened players base batter something good use phrase happened lots people tried figure players ability turn notch clutch rbi whatever situations , 've found evidence anyone ability measurable extent clutch hitters people tend things would cause rbi somebody base end getting rbis proportional many teammates obliged position mistake agree , rbi worthless stat course , stolen bases sometimes runners front player would otherwise run course pitchers pitch differently different people different bases , batting average , slugging obp , hmmm guess homers would count , either point \? rbi might perfect stat nothing stat \( lack \) tell clutch hitters maybe stat tell , either , people know ! ! ! 8 \) ed
subject phillies new ballpark future \? csc2imd cabell vcu edu \( ian derby \) expires sat , 1 may 1993 04 00 00 gmt organization virginia commonwealth university keywords phillies summary phillies lines 17 attn live inthe philadelphia metro area back september listening wip , remember morning guys talking mayor ed topic conversation new ball park phillies location new park suggested near 30th st station time , mayor future could become reality new news subject still pipe dream \? know city philadelphia projects ahead , new convention center upcoming spectrum ii would nice see reality planned phillies leave vet leave solely eagles \( 's case , eagles make vet grass stadium , 's another story \) want see day ! comments \?
cc bellcore com \( michael \( \) \) subject dave kingman hall fame organization bellcore , livingston , nj lines 128 article 1993apr15 news yale edu , \( steve tomassi \) writes hi , baseball fans ! say \? n't think deserves \? mean , heck , dave winfield \( ho hum \) seriously considered , lee smith \( ha \) , n't give dave kingman chance \? darrell evans ! yeah , yeah ! hall fame takes , take eddie murray jeff reardon trying think respond without involving personal feeling perceptions without stats back points however , think approached wrong way believe people mentioned deserve hall fame dave kingman feel much better players saying fell deserve go would deserve imho dave kingman definately guy couple years could hit atleast respectable rest career think feared pitchers also think lot game mean really met fan met part career still would back hall fame dave winfield think feared pitchers , several season hit respectable average production numbers \( opinion without stats \) better kingman 's \( probably quite bit \) also perceive leader , maybe much people none less leader think made substantial contributions game baseball society examples charitable things done \( know yankees \) think type player kids look definately criteria hall fame think deserves consideration lee smith maybe , would see stats definately would deserve go likes kingman darrell evans eddie murray maybe , good career , leader \( although silent one \) , good role model stats good enough \? sure would believe much better kingman 's average well power numbers \( good winfield 's \) think , eddie much publicity great years jeff reardon guess , kind depends numbers top head would take lee smith first well , case , sick tired \( mostly sick \) everybody giving hall fame consideration players today 's standards , marginal honestly , ozzie smith robin yount n't belong 're shortstops hung around long time big deal well , strongly disagree guys deserve sure talked leadership , guys leaders leading teams post season robin good offensive numbers average power ozzie okay numbers offensively difference ozzie gave home run every run saved making incredible play shortstop would shattered aaron 's home run mark many great plays saved games \? many great plays motivated team rally win game \? believe guys numbers , baseball numbers \( least winning baseball numbers \) guys proven stars belong hall fame george brett also belongs class player let 's little selective , huh \? stop handing honors liberally save guys really deserve face , something n't done , little prestige hall fame anymore certain individuals believe steve garvey jack morris potential candidates , absurdity apparent gee , guys even compare likely future hall famers like kirby puckett nolan ryan \? steve garvey sure , probably guess could see someone making case jack morris first choice see someone might bring name kirby puckett probably reason say definately still time left career continues probably turn definately nolan ryan really doubt \? think heard something 53 records \( maybe good n't know hear number \) numbers , contributions game community great role model would say best pitcher ever pitch game \( probably even top 20 \) would first pitcher would put hall fame accomplishments \( hitters , strikeouts , respectable numbers even weaker teams \) go really hope gets possible votes summing 3 groups , belong , probably sure lean towards saying n't belong least without seeing stats possibly hearing reasons go yes winfield , yount , brett \( mail \) , smith , puckett ryan maybe murray l smith reardon , garvey , morris , evans definately kingman said stats around numbers back entirely opinions based perceptions mike q steve
fester island com \( mike fester \) subject notes jays vs indians series organization usr local rn organization distribution na lines 41 article 1993apr14 csd newshost stanford edu nlu xenon stanford edu \( nelson lu \) writes second basemen history probably n't even good season alomar last year guess line ba obp slg ab h 2b 3b hr bb x 310 405 427 571 177 27 8 8 87 312 354 455 657 205 32 1 20 35 walks give away obp 's , general , somewhat valuable slugging , alomar 's edge obp quite bit larger baerga 's edge slugging i'm sdcn , 's valuable 28 hits w 5 doubles , 12 hrs 7 triples 52 bbs \? \( let 's forget 39 extra sbs many cs \? \) course 28 hits 12 homers valuable n't forget 58 outs ca n't ways baerga 's higher raw numbers due playing time , thus hits homers , n't forget cost outs \( btw , answer question , alomar 49 sb 9 cs baerga 10 sb 2 cs , gives minute plus alomar 's side \) something else consider alomar 's h r splits 500 363 slg , 444 369 obp ! baerga 's 486 424 392 318 pretty clearly , alomar got huge boost home park 'd say could make good equal right p rated baerga higher , actually mike disclaimer opiini h h damn ! h h q w q wq wq ! x \? exit x q c \? quitbye ctrlaltdel q q logout save quit ! quit zz zzzzzz vi man vi l c e x \? help helpquit ! ! man help c c e ! help exit \? quit \? q ctrlshftdel hey , stop l1a
cco caltech edu \( kevin todd schmidt \) subject al opi first week organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 186 nntp posting host sandman caltech edu opi \( offensive production index \) al players least 10 bats early season high numbers last years leader frank thomas 0 682 teams denoted first character name player team preceeding name equations used found end post comments suggestions welcome kevin league opi 0 448 league ba 0 268 league slg 0 405 league oba 0 341 rank player opi ba slg oba 1 tor , carter 2 142 0 583 1 417 0 615 2 cle , baerga 1 432 0 520 1 040 0 538 3 det , phillips 1 334 0 565 0 609 0 655 4 oak , mcgwire 1 147 0 364 0 636 0 632 5 tor , white 1 065 0 500 0 650 0 545 6 bal , anderson 0 951 0 423 0 692 0 500 7 nyy , owen 0 934 0 500 0 577 0 567 8 oak , 0 911 0 391 0 565 0 533 9 mil , thon 0 804 0 476 0 619 0 476 10 oak , 0 800 0 476 0 476 0 522 11 tex , palmer 0 781 0 333 0 875 0 333 11 det , gibson 0 781 0 312 0 562 0 500 13 cle , howard 0 755 0 455 0 727 0 455 14 nyy , tartabull 0 742 0 296 0 667 0 424 15 tex , rodriguez 0 736 0 429 0 500 0 529 15 tex , gonzalez 0 736 0 261 0 913 0 292 17 bos , zupcic 0 728 0 400 0 500 0 455 18 sea , felder 0 723 0 357 0 429 0 471 19 oak , blankenship 0 722 0 333 0 333 0 524 20 min , puckett 0 717 0 280 0 720 0 379 21 nyy , 0 710 0 435 0 609 0 458 22 cle , belle 0 703 0 348 0 696 0 375 23 sea , 0 699 0 294 0 471 0 478 24 mil , hamilton 0 682 0 458 0 458 0 500 25 det , whitaker 0 680 0 312 0 500 0 421 26 det , fielder 0 666 0 273 0 591 0 407 27 tor , sprague 0 649 0 300 0 750 0 300 28 whi , 0 646 0 350 0 500 0 458 29 whi , raines 0 641 0 250 0 750 0 308 30 nyy , kelly 0 625 0 348 0 565 0 375 31 bos , quintana 0 617 0 455 0 455 0 455 32 sea , 0 612 0 211 0 632 0 348 32 cal , gonzales 0 612 0 250 0 250 0 478 34 whi , 0 609 0 348 0 565 0 375 35 cal , snow 0 602 0 368 0 526 0 400 36 whi , 0 598 0 167 0 417 0 412 37 cleveland 0 595 0 340 0 549 0 377 38 cle , 0 594 0 273 0 727 0 273 39 sea , 0 587 0 368 0 579 0 429 39 bos , cooper 0 587 0 375 0 458 0 423 41 min , winfield 0 578 0 292 0 667 0 292 42 cal , curtis 0 571 0 333 0 381 0 417 43 bos , 0 566 0 316 0 526 0 350 44 oak , 0 556 0 333 0 542 0 385 45 oakland 0 555 0 298 0 439 0 406 46 nyy , maas 0 547 0 333 0 389 0 429 47 kan , 0 546 0 300 0 400 0 417 48 min , knoblauch 0 535 0 304 0 348 0 448 49 bos , greenwell 0 534 0 261 0 478 0 370 50 oak , 0 532 0 273 0 545 0 333 51 tor , olerud 0 530 0 333 0 400 0 412 52 bal , mercedes 0 529 0 286 0 429 0 412 53 0 527 0 321 0 468 0 377 54 bal , 0 525 0 263 0 526 0 333 55 mil , 0 523 0 286 0 286 0 412 56 oak , 0 517 0 231 0 462 0 412 57 cle , lofton 0 515 0 346 0 385 0 370 58 min , larkin 0 514 0 357 0 500 0 400 59 bos , dawson 0 504 0 333 0 458 0 360 60 cle , 0 503 0 333 0 389 0 400 61 det , 0 498 0 312 0 500 0 312 62 cal , polonia 0 494 0 292 0 500 0 320 63 california 0 487 0 295 0 404 0 364 64 detroit 0 484 0 260 0 410 0 357 65 det , tettleton 0 475 0 211 0 421 0 348 66 cal , 0 473 0 304 0 478 0 304 67 cal , 0 472 0 304 0 435 0 333 68 bal , 0 470 0 300 0 400 0 364 69 tex , franco 0 469 0 300 0 350 0 391 70 whi , 0 464 0 280 0 400 0 333 71 sea , vizquel 0 463 0 222 0 222 0 417 72 nyy , 0 461 0 294 0 471 0 314 73 mil , 0 460 0 222 0 389 0 391 74 min , hrbek 0 458 0 240 0 360 0 367 75 bal , 0 451 0 333 0 407 0 379 75 seattle 0 451 0 237 0 367 0 361 77 cal , salmon 0 448 0 267 0 267 0 450 78 kan , mcreynolds 0 447 0 182 0 500 0 280 79 toronto 0 443 0 261 0 430 0 318 79 texas 0 443 0 237 0 489 0 289 81 min , pagliarulo 0 439 0 286 0 429 0 333 82 0 432 0 243 0 378 0 336 83 kan , hiatt 0 431 0 278 0 500 0 316 84 whi , 0 426 0 263 0 263 0 364 85 whi , thomas 0 419 0 259 0 333 0 355 86 kan , mcrae 0 414 0 296 0 333 0 345 87 boston 0 411 0 270 0 365 0 336 88 cle , hill 0 410 0 300 0 500 0 300 89 nyy , mattingly 0 400 0 324 0 353 0 343 90 baltimore 0 394 0 251 0 361 0 315 91 bal , gomez 0 382 0 316 0 316 0 350 91 minnesota 0 382 0 237 0 379 0 298 93 whi , fisk 0 381 0 273 0 545 0 273 94 cle , jefferson 0 379 0 263 0 316 0 333 95 oak , 0 370 0 188 0 500 0 188 96 cal , 0 369 0 211 0 421 0 250 97 bos , fletcher 0 364 0 217 0 391 0 280 98 milwaukee 0 361 0 257 0 293 0 333 99 det , 0 360 0 250 0 438 0 294 100 tor , 0 354 0 263 0 316 0 333 101 0 343 0 236 0 327 0 291 102 oak , 0 339 0 200 0 250 0 304 103 tex , canseco 0 337 0 190 0 381 0 261 104 sea , valle 0 336 0 250 0 312 0 294 105 bal , 0 329 0 207 0 379 0 233 106 kan , lind 0 323 0 188 0 438 0 188 107 mil , 0 312 0 227 0 273 0 292 107 kan , brett 0 312 0 259 0 296 0 286 109 whi , bell 0 310 0 207 0 310 0 258 110 cle , 0 306 0 200 0 200 0 304 111 mil , 0 304 0 267 0 267 0 353 111 det , fryman 0 304 0 185 0 296 0 214 113 nyy , boggs 0 296 0 200 0 233 0 294 114 tex , 0 290 0 250 0 333 0 308 115 min , mack 0 289 0 233 0 333 0 258 116 min , harper 0 288 0 280 0 280 0 280 117 cle , 0 284 0 200 0 200 0 304 118 bos , rivera 0 276 0 118 0 176 0 286 119 mil , 0 275 0 231 0 231 0 286 120 mil , yount 0 268 0 208 0 208 0 269 121 tor , 0 265 0 133 0 267 0 235 121 tex , 0 265 0 154 0 308 0 214 123 sea , griffey 0 261 0 105 0 263 0 261 124 sea , obrien 0 259 0 100 0 100 0 308 124 kan , 0 259 0 273 0 273 0 333 126 oak , sierra 0 256 0 200 0 240 0 231 127 kan , jose 0 254 0 167 0 167 0 286 128 bos , hatcher 0 252 0 188 0 188 0 278 129 sea , blowers 0 251 0 200 0 200 0 273 130 whi , ventura 0 247 0 167 0 167 0 310 130 tex , 0 247 0 130 0 261 0 167 132 bal , reynolds 0 227 0 118 0 118 0 250 133 kan , mayne 0 222 0 231 0 231 0 231 133 cal , myers 0 222 0 231 0 231 0 231 135 nyy , nokes 0 219 0 150 0 300 0 150 136 bos , calderon 0 209 0 167 0 167 0 286 137 bos , pena 0 207 0 267 0 267 0 267 138 tor , molitor 0 194 0 150 0 200 0 190 139 det , deer 0 182 0 125 0 167 0 192 140 det , cuyler 0 179 0 077 0 154 0 143 141 tor , borders 0 159 0 111 0 167 0 158 142 whi , grebeck 0 141 0 100 0 100 0 182 143 bal , 0 137 0 111 0 148 0 143 144 tex , 0 128 0 091 0 182 0 091 145 min , leius 0 115 0 083 0 083 0 154 145 mil , reimer 0 115 0 083 0 083 0 154 147 tor , 0 114 0 133 0 133 0 133 148 tex , gill 0 0 059 0 059 0 158 149 kan , 0 0 095 0 095 0 095 0 74 1b 1 28 2b 1 64 3b 2 25 hr 0 53 bb 0 34 \( sb 2 cs \) opi ab h ba h ab slg \( h 2b 2 3b 3 hr \) ab oba \( h bb \) \( ab bb \) jet propulsion laboratory cco caltech edu 4800 oak grove dr schmidt jpl nasa gov 525 3684 pasadena , ca 91109
cco caltech edu \( kevin todd schmidt \) subject nl opi first week organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 184 nntp posting host sandman caltech edu opi \( offensive production index \) nl players least 10 bats early season high numbers barry bonds finished last season 0 795 welcome comments suggestions kevin league opi 0 410 league ba 0 252 league slg 0 375 league oba 0 321 rank player opi ba slg oba 1 phi , daulton 1 101 0 333 0 875 0 515 2 phi , kruk 1 0 429 0 821 0 529 3 cub , grace 1 007 0 452 0 742 0 514 4 cub , may 0 931 0 389 0 889 0 421 5 col , boston 0 888 0 545 0 545 0 545 6 pit , bell 0 873 0 429 0 714 0 467 7 col , galarraga 0 867 0 458 0 708 0 458 8 stl , pena 0 833 0 400 0 600 0 516 9 stl , zeile 0 811 0 440 0 560 0 500 10 cin , mitchell 0 810 0 429 0 643 0 467 11 mon , lansing 0 792 0 419 0 677 0 438 12 pit , slaught 0 754 0 474 0 526 0 474 13 mon , 0 746 0 389 0 556 0 476 14 nym , 0 709 0 300 0 400 0 500 15 snf , martinez 0 697 0 300 0 400 0 500 16 hou , bagwell 0 695 0 367 0 567 0 424 17 col , hayes 0 686 0 333 0 667 0 364 18 col , 0 682 0 333 0 500 0 407 19 mon , alou 0 675 0 371 0 600 0 389 20 cin , milligan 0 659 0 333 0 375 0 515 21 phi , dykstra 0 646 0 214 0 571 0 405 22 snf , bonds 0 624 0 280 0 680 0 333 22 flo , conine 0 624 0 393 0 393 0 469 24 snd , plantier 0 603 0 286 0 571 0 375 25 hou , gonzalez 0 596 0 296 0 667 0 296 26 hou , anthony 0 594 0 320 0 480 0 414 27 col , cole 0 579 0 318 0 409 0 400 28 atl , sanders 0 576 0 357 0 643 0 357 29 mon , berry 0 566 0 273 0 273 0 500 30 cub , sosa 0 558 0 303 0 545 0 343 31 stl , jefferies 0 551 0 269 0 692 0 296 32 pit , 0 549 0 296 0 444 0 387 33 montreal 0 548 0 312 0 490 0 367 34 los , butler 0 545 0 296 0 333 0 457 35 mon , grissom 0 542 0 333 0 455 0 371 36 pit , king 0 536 0 308 0 346 0 438 37 snd , gwynn 0 533 0 280 0 400 0 379 38 pit , merced 0 532 0 300 0 400 0 391 39 nym , murray 0 521 0 308 0 462 0 357 40 stl , gilkey 0 514 0 312 0 438 0 353 41 nym , bonilla 0 507 0 292 0 417 0 370 42 snd , walters 0 501 0 300 0 500 0 333 43 cub , wilson 0 497 0 323 0 452 0 344 44 flo , weiss 0 492 0 261 0 348 0 433 45 philadelphia 0 487 0 243 0 431 0 348 46 atl , justice 0 480 0 207 0 448 0 361 47 pittsburgh 0 479 0 292 0 428 0 351 48 stl , 0 476 0 310 0 448 0 355 49 phi , incaviglia 0 473 0 250 0 500 0 308 50 pit , young 0 470 0 286 0 500 0 310 51 stlouis 0 467 0 275 0 445 0 344 52 colorado 0 459 0 287 0 426 0 327 53 nym , 0 458 0 300 0 450 0 333 54 nym , 0 454 0 357 0 429 0 400 55 snf , benjamin 0 440 0 200 0 500 0 273 56 atl , gant 0 438 0 214 0 464 0 333 56 0 438 0 261 0 345 0 356 58 houston 0 436 0 260 0 415 0 318 59 mon , pitcher 0 434 0 312 0 375 0 353 60 phi , 0 433 0 240 0 360 0 321 61 hou , cedeno 0 427 0 280 0 440 0 308 62 cin , sabo 0 423 0 226 0 452 0 273 63 snf , manwaring 0 413 0 261 0 435 0 292 64 0 412 0 253 0 396 0 315 65 atl , blauser 0 409 0 276 0 310 0 364 66 snf , thompson 0 408 0 278 0 389 0 316 66 hou , caminiti 0 408 0 259 0 481 0 286 68 flo , 0 405 0 267 0 267 0 371 69 mon , 0 400 0 276 0 345 0 323 70 snd , sheffield 0 397 0 241 0 448 0 267 71 los , karros 0 392 0 259 0 296 0 355 72 snf , williams 0 391 0 226 0 452 0 250 72 snd , mcgriff 0 391 0 192 0 385 0 276 74 flo , 0 390 0 267 0 333 0 333 75 col , 0 388 0 238 0 381 0 304 76 atl , bream 0 386 0 182 0 409 0 250 77 mon , wood 0 385 0 200 0 300 0 333 78 flo , santiago 0 384 0 200 0 360 0 286 79 phi , thompson 0 383 0 227 0 273 0 320 80 snf , clayton 0 382 0 345 0 379 0 345 80 los , piazza 0 382 0 304 0 391 0 333 82 snd , bell 0 378 0 273 0 364 0 304 83 los , wallach 0 374 0 200 0 400 0 273 84 cin , larkin 0 367 0 281 0 281 0 361 85 pit , garcia 0 366 0 273 0 318 0 304 85 cincinnati 0 366 0 256 0 319 0 326 87 nym , coleman 0 363 0 259 0 259 0 310 88 nym , kent 0 362 0 190 0 286 0 320 89 stl , whiten 0 361 0 240 0 360 0 321 90 cin , roberts 0 359 0 278 0 278 0 333 90 cubs 0 359 0 236 0 366 0 277 92 snf , lewis 0 354 0 227 0 364 0 261 92 hou , finley 0 354 0 214 0 250 0 312 92 col , clark 0 354 0 250 0 350 0 286 95 los , pitcher 0 350 0 286 0 357 0 286 95 0 350 0 219 0 357 0 268 97 atl , lemke 0 345 0 200 0 240 0 333 98 0 339 0 221 0 275 0 311 99 snf , mcgee 0 335 0 267 0 300 0 333 99 atlanta 0 335 0 199 0 308 0 287 101 cin , sanders 0 334 0 267 0 333 0 290 101 cin , oliver 0 334 0 208 0 208 0 345 103 snd , gardner 0 332 0 238 0 333 0 273 103 los , reed 0 332 0 276 0 276 0 323 105 phi , hollins 0 327 0 226 0 290 0 294 106 florida 0 326 0 226 0 268 0 311 107 los , davis 0 325 0 188 0 219 0 278 108 atl , pendleton 0 322 0 212 0 273 0 297 109 snf , clark 0 316 0 161 0 290 0 257 110 los , strawberry 0 314 0 111 0 185 0 314 110 hou , biggio 0 314 0 179 0 214 0 303 112 phi , bell 0 304 0 182 0 364 0 217 113 flo , magadan 0 303 0 182 0 182 0 357 114 stl , pagnozzi 0 299 0 158 0 316 0 238 115 pit , martin 0 295 0 167 0 417 0 167 115 col , bichette 0 295 0 222 0 389 0 222 117 hou , 0 294 0 190 0 333 0 227 118 mon , bolick 0 292 0 250 0 312 0 250 119 flo , pose 0 291 0 258 0 323 0 303 120 mon , 0 287 0 188 0 375 0 188 121 nym , johnson 0 274 0 136 0 136 0 296 122 cin , kelly 0 272 0 250 0 333 0 270 123 atl , nixon 0 256 0 185 0 222 0 241 124 nym , pitcher 0 255 0 167 0 250 0 231 125 pit , pitcher 0 250 0 222 0 278 0 222 126 cub , 0 231 0 154 0 192 0 241 127 stl , lankford 0 225 0 133 0 133 0 316 128 atl , olson 0 224 0 150 0 150 0 261 129 cub , vizcaino 0 217 0 148 0 259 0 179 130 cub , 0 212 0 188 0 219 0 212 131 phi , duncan 0 202 0 214 0 214 0 214 132 los , offerman 0 198 0 182 0 182 0 250 133 snf , pitcher 0 197 0 176 0 235 0 176 134 mon , 0 183 0 133 0 267 0 133 135 phi , chamberlain 0 180 0 111 0 111 0 200 136 snd , pitcher 0 164 0 182 0 182 0 182 136 atl , pitcher 0 164 0 182 0 182 0 182 138 phi , pitcher 0 159 0 111 0 167 0 158 139 cub , maldonado 0 150 0 105 0 158 0 150 140 flo , felix 0 148 0 172 0 207 0 172 141 cin , espy 0 141 0 100 0 100 0 182 142 stl , jordan 0 140 0 105 0 211 0 105 143 atl , berryhill 0 128 0 091 0 182 0 091 144 cub , pitcher 0 126 0 111 0 111 0 158 145 snd , shipley 0 122 0 0 174 0 146 stl , pitcher 0 106 0 125 0 125 0 125 147 hou , pitcher 0 053 0 067 0 067 0 067 147 col , 0 053 0 067 0 067 0 067 147 cin , pitcher 0 053 0 067 0 067 0 067 150 cub , wilkins 0 038 0 000 0 000 0 067 151 flo , pitcher 0 000 0 000 0 000 0 000 151 col , pitcher 0 000 0 000 0 000 0 000 0 74 1b 1 28 2b 1 64 3b 2 25 hr 0 53 bb 0 34 \( sb 2 cs \) opi ab h ba h ab slg \( h 2b 2 3b 3 hr \) ab oba \( h bb \) \( ab bb \) jet propulsion laboratory cco caltech edu 4800 oak grove dr schmidt jpl nasa gov 525 3684 pasadena , ca 91109
microsoft com \( anton \) subject oakland oaks organization microsoft corp distribution usa lines 13 field seattle , makes lots minor negro league jackets jerseys things real \( around 200 jersey \) authentic look nicely made paul , long live steve pcl la angels phone number 1 800 377 last catalog shows three oaks jerseys 36 home , 42 home , 39 home 're 165 00 merchandise handmade authentic replica couple excellent also wool caps jackets call get mailing list even ca n't afford prices anton
news uta edu \( \) subject 2 5 weeks ! ! organization university texas arlington lines 4 nolan ryan torn right knee surgery expected miss 2 5 weeks
steph cs uiuc edu \( dale stephenson \) subject defensive averages 1988 1992 , third base organization university illinois , dept comp sci , urbana , il lines 122 cs uiuc edu steph cs uiuc edu \( dale stephenson \) writes compiled last five defensive average reports , career das individual players reports stats courtesy sherri nichols players listed descending order comments , players deleted third basemen name 1988 1989 1990 1991 1992 88 92 mitchell , kevin 690 0 690 yep , kevin mitchell never would expected 1 spot gonzales , rene 685 0 685 's accident first two names 1988 first second base , 1988 year glove average da 20 points higher leagues year leius , scott 653 680 0 672 looks good bad 's moving short pendleton , terry 692 685 631 689 634 0 667 highest five year regular , though 's one year good kevin mitchell ventura , robin 641 647 677 0 657 wallach , tim 728 674 600 630 665 0 657 gruber , kelly 717 657 580 630 664 0 650 elite fielders league pagliarulo , mike 631 575 744 0 649 interesting line 1988 figure slightly average 1990 pathetic , 1991 next best year anybody part may mobility 1988 yankees 1990 padres , appear rotten infield 1991 twins , judging leius gaetti , metrodome may good place play third williams , matt 633 653 656 0 647 add another elite fielders list caminiti , ken 675 630 653 596 0 642 sabo , chris 751 626 616 613 575 0 642 fielders whose career average may value n't know happened caminiti judging three previous years , low 1992 may fluke sabo merely average , however incredible 1988 \( best year ever \) brings average lot , steve 647 616 647 681 599 0 635 strange last two years schmidt , mike 628 0 628 according reputation , one best fielders ever third base end , average \( average 1988 643 \) boggs , wade 643 659 550 653 634 0 626 boggs pretty good n't know happened 1990 , every year average , usually quite bit martinez , 621 645 599 0 624 last year fluke \? nl average 643 625 602 623 603 0 619 , kevin 654 583 593 635 0 616 al average 641 612 604 620 602 0 615 two leagues usually defensive averages close one another , different year year \? ideas \? jacoby , brook 624 621 600 597 0 613 brook declining hansen , dave 611 0 611 magadan , dave 609 0 609 jefferies , greg 606 0 606 three first time regulars , average 1992 i'm sure jefferies gets grief fielding 's never good year , second improved become average fielder , average fielder third zeile , todd 614 593 0 605 zeile , hand , average fielder year 's 10 points average 's probably park , since terry pendleton excellent das three years baerga , carlos 604 0 604 moving back second good idea hayes , chris 601 622 606 574 0 602 hayes supposed good defensively \? 's grand total one year league da , pretty bad last year johnson , howard 628 549 611 573 0 588 lansford , carney 620 578 594 550 0 587 howard johnson carney lansford separated birth credit , hojo one average year \( 1990 \) lansford could n't even break 600 mark without help year glove hollins , dave 577 0 577 good hitter , fielding needs work sheffield , gary 584 567 0 575 good fielder blauser , jeff 573 0 573 fryman , travis 571 0 571 better shortstop gomez , lee 551 542 0 546 two consecutive horrible years leo camden yards n't seem helped fielding palmer , dean 520 0 520 texas slugger lowest career da , lowest da third ever congratulations , dean dale j stephenson \( steph cs uiuc edu \) grad student large considered good look wise , especially overburdened information j golden kimball
mjones fenway aix kingston ibm com \( mike jones \) subject two reply mjones donald aix kingston ibm com organization ibm aix esa development , kingston ny lines 9 well , red sox resigned herm aaa contract ted larry simmons signed aaa contract released buffalo , allowing lou curly gorman circumvent rule free agents may 1 clearly , neither guys bright enough moe mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com make right make faster
reeve steam com \( scott reeve \) subject yankee fears nntp posting host steam com reply reeve steam com \( scott reeve \) organization , inc burlington , , usa lines 1
niguma ug cs dal ca \( gord niguma \) subject notes jays vs indians series nntp posting host ug cs dal ca organization math , stats cs , dalhousie university , halifax , ns , canada distribution na lines 38 1993apr15 webo dg com lyford webo dg com \( lyford beverage \) writes article 1993apr13 cs cornell edu , tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) writes article netcom com rudy netcom com \( rudy wade \) writes article 2pm cs dal ca niguma ug cs dal ca \( gord niguma \) writes reference history certainly n't best season second basemen history probably n't even good season alomar last year \? measure \( like popularity toronto n't count \) basing statement \? uh , yes baerga lot flash , alomar better hitter last year batters ba slg obp g ab r h tb 2b 3b hr rbi bb sb cs e baerga , c 312 455 354 161 657 92 205 299 32 1 20 105 35 76 10 2 19 alomar , r 310 427 405 152 571 105 177 244 27 8 8 76 87 52 49 9 5 fascinating say alomar better hitter last year , immediately follow numbers showing baerga better year category see shows advantage alomar obp hmmm walks sb \? baerga got clobbered alomar obp beat slg lesser margin even putting aside factors , player 51 point edge obp productive player 28 point edge slg issue studied , doubt could come convincing argument way people see batting average hr , n't really know value worth unless 've studied issue closely fact baerga ate lot outs alomar baerga making outs , alomar drawing walks base carter , winfield et al gord niguma \( fav player john olerud \)
bratt crchh7a9 nosubdomain nodomain \( john bratt \) subject sandberg , runs , rbis \( notes jays vs indians series \) distribution na nntp posting host crchh7a9 organization bell northern research dallas tx lines 26 article cs dal ca , niguma ug cs dal ca \( gord niguma \) writes alomar fans left rbi fans runs list dependant team \( large extent \) frank thomas hit first , 'd lose lot rbi 's anyways many 2nd place hitters known drive 100 runs \? n't happen often unlikely devon white 's 300 obp front i'm pretty sure sandberg done least \( know someone correct i'm wrong \) rbis runs scored two important offensive statistics talk obp slg want , fact remains team scores runs wins game ! flame away john bratt gord niguma \( fav player john olerud \)
sbp002 acad drake edu subject torre worst manager \? lines 26 nntp posting host acad drake edu organization drake university , des moines , iowa , usa article 93095 hydra gatech edu , gt7469a prism gatech edu \( brian r landmann \) writes joe torre worst manager baseball anyone n't see sunday 's game , right hander pitching decides bench lankform , left handed hitter play jordan gilkey , right handers later , ninth inning bases loaded two outs puts lankford , 300 hitter power pinch runner uses luis alicea , 250 hitter power pinch hitter hell thinking educate rip years manager year lankford injured previous game torre resting far whitten gilkey controversy whitten adds needed power , jordan continues hit way , gilkey find starting lineup soon enough sam brian landmann georgia institute technology internet gt7469a prism gatech edu
subject jewish baseball players \? rbd flash ece uc edu \( bobby davis \) organization university cincinnati nntp posting host flash ece uc edu lines 5 hank greenberg probably greatest ever also subject lot bigots opposing teams stands , never seemed affect performance negatively bob davis rbd thor ece uc edu
hplsla hp com \( cheryl marks \) subject omar vizquel grand salami \? organization hp lake stevens , wa lines 20 think omar 's grand slam result new fan club \? last week banner appeared older women omar cheryl cheryl marks hp ux address lsid hp com hp desk cheryl marks 1 335 bell \( 206 \) 335 usps cheryl marks ms 330 8600 soper hill road everett , wa 1298 much good thing wonderful mae west
tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) subject pleasant yankee surprises organization cornell univ cs dept , ithaca ny 14853 lines 22 article 1993apr15 7200 alleg edu luriem alleg edu \( michael lurie \) liberalizer writes actually , kind liked trade trade rookie year , snow , mattingly first another 8 years , bother 'd willing make two 1 \) snow n't win roy 2 \) mattingly baseball within five years i'm skeptical first , n't think snow good player , losing team i'm skeptical second back mattingly 32 year , many players play 40 \? many , n't chronic back problems 32 could wrong either , think 's smart way bet cheers , valentine
gspira nyx cs du edu \( greg spira \) subject organization university denver , dept math comp sci lines 10 scott asd com \( scott barman \) writes forget word three divisions wild card done deal decided soon since negotiations networks also begin soon preliminary negotiations started already , believe though word going greg
leland stanford edu \( emery ethan chen \) subject let 's talk phillies summary bullshit ! organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa lines 19 article follows ns1 cc lehigh edu \( brian michael lucy \) subject let 's talk phillies date 15 apr 93 06 29 05 gmt organization lehigh university lines 9 article andrew cmu edu , andrew cmu edu \( amit ani \) writes excerpts netnews rec sport baseball 9 apr 93 let 's talk phillies u96 vaxc stevens \( 963 \) like oh well spell cellar \? p r e ` ninja jew philly fans want put money \? , stop woofing ben rivera got hammered true \( last week \) , tonight pitched 6 shutout innings got 9 runs behind that's 're 8 1 ! one phrase fuck ! ! ! ! thanks
tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) subject notes jays vs indians series organization cornell univ cs dept , ithaca ny 14853 distribution na lines 21 article 1993apr15 news acns nwu edu edo casbah acns nwu edu \( edward \) writes point \? rbi might perfect stat nothing stat \( lack \) tell clutch hitters maybe stat tell , either , people know ! ! ! 8 \) hoping somebody would mention clutch clutch \? baerga \? two words simply go together runners scoring position , baerga batted 308 366 418 last year n't quite suck , batters hit better situation alomar \? hit 354 439 517 runners scoring position ! difference \? alomar 68 rbis 147 ab baerga 81 rbis 182 ab baerga got 25 chances , yet succeeded 20 times frankly , n't believe clutch , vote would go alomar mvp \( let alone best 2b al \) valentine
gspira nyx cs du edu \( greg spira \) subject dave kingman hall fame organization university denver , dept math comp sci lines 79 \( steve tomassi \) writes hi , baseball fans ! say \? n't think deserves \? mean , heck , dave winfield \( ho hum \) seriously considered , lee smith \( ha \) , n't give dave kingman chance \? darrell evans ! yeah , yeah ! hall fame takes , take eddie murray jeff reardon unfortunately , seem lack ability rate players dave winfield better career half people hall fame eddie murray evans one top 100 players time lee smith probably greatest long career relief pitcher since 1960 , possible exception hand , kingman probably n't one best 750 players time reardon , though good pitcher , n't smith 's class career wise well , case , sick tired \( mostly sick \) everybody giving hall fame consideration players today 's standards , marginal honestly , ozzie smith robin yount n't belong 're shortstops hung around long time big deal 're talking 2 top 50 players time probably n't 5 shortstops history better two let 's little selective , huh \? stop handing honors liberally save guys really deserve face , something n't done , little prestige hall fame anymore certain individuals believe steve garvey jack morris potential candidates , absurdity apparent garvey sucked morris , good pitcher , simply n't belong near gee , guys even compare likely future hall famers like kirby puckett nolan ryan \? puckett ryan \( okay , \) get hall , marginal hall famers \( unless puckett keeps hitting like last year longer \) put perspective , 's listing linear weights values careers players mention high greatest ever list make one would claim perfect , give good value careers compared average players robin yount 43 0 \( 41 \) ozzie smith 42 1 \( 45 \) dave winfield 40 3 \( 53 \) eddie murray 37 5 \( 68 \) evans 35 2 \( 80 \) kirby puckett 24 3 \( 180 \) nolan ryan 21 6 \( 219 \) jack morris 11 8 \( 478 \) dave kingman 0 4 steve garvey 5 8 give idea numbers compare hall 71 eligible players whose career stats 35 0 , 64 hall fame ones n't include 4 19th century players , ron santo , bobby , bob johnson eligible score 30 0 34 9 , 15 25 eligible score 25 0 29 9 , 24 44 greg
kkeller mail sas upenn edu \( keith keller \) subject phillies new ballpark future \? organization university pennsylvania , school arts sciences lines 18 nntp posting host mail sas upenn edu philadelphia inquirer days ago , reported two \( 2 \) plans new phillies stadium already mentioned 30th street station proposal , location near broad street race street , think ca n't remember exact details , stadium would build practically downtown small lot could used , according paper 30th street plan run trouble , want lines order accomodate stadium n't opinion yet , letting everyone know really two options discussed right neither plans put effect soon , however , nobody wants pay \) keith keller let's go rangers ! ! ! ! ! let's go quakers ! ! ! ! ! kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs ! ! ! ! want opinion , 'll give
jrogoff scott skidmore edu \( jay rogoff \) subject box score woes organization skidmore college , saratoga springs ny lines 7 anybody figure box score abbreviations make absolutely sense \? \( least local rag finds way door \) must stared mets' box good 30 seconds morning wondering hell would n't make sense use \? jay
jrogoff scott skidmore edu \( jay rogoff \) subject infield fly rule organization skidmore college , saratoga springs ny lines 16 one last infield fly question always puzzled n't yet addressed believe rule also deal situation infield fly declared ball caught , runners tag advance risk , fly ball however , infield fly caught , point runner legally leave base w fear doubled advancing early \? ball hits ground \? fielder first touches ball hits ground \? enlightenment would appreciated jay
unix amherst edu \( joshua lawrence \) subject jewish baseball players \? nntp posting host amhux3 amherst edu organization amherst college x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl7 lines 12 baseball players , past present n't able come much , except sandy koufax , \( somebody \) stankowitz , maybe john lowenstein anyone come know sounds pretty lame racking brains , humor us thanks help john lowenstein definately jewish many baltimore thought especially told baltimore jewish times later admitted joke
\( sean garrison \) subject wfan nntp posting host berkeley kstar node net yale edu organization yale university lines 11 article news udel edu , philly ravel udel edu \( robert c hite \) wrote wip took two best sports jockeys , jody macdonald steve fredericks dude ! nuts \? wfan second none jody mac 's exit quite loss , think fredericks fan much one , 're pretty skewed sean
aardvark cygnus la locus com \( warren usui \) subject 1964 phillies deja vu \? keywords phillies organization locus computing corporation , los angeles , california lines 21 article netcom com erics netcom com \( eric smith \) writes yeah , phillies played heads almost whole year , caught one 10 game streak old 1964 \( man ! \) big phillies fan time \( age 13 \) dodgers somebody else finish two games back \? one closest last minute scrambles ever since born late , remember 1964 year , dodgers several games first think finished sixth league kind odd world series previous year following year warren usui i'm one universe scale 1 10
erics netcom com \( eric smith \) subject 1964 phillies deja vu \? keywords phillies organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 112 previously wrote yeah , phillies played heads almost whole year , caught one 10 game streak old 1964 \( man ! \) big phillies fan time \( age 13 \) september '64 still painful thing remember tell phillies never led league 15 year going memory alone , believe biggest lead 7 1 2 games , 6 1 2 ahead famous 10 game losing streak began , streak seemed found every way lose known man anyway , think end last couple games still thing final day , finished tied giants one game n't dodgers somebody else finish two games back \? one closest last minute scrambles ever ok , guys stirred childhood memories , went research final month 1964 season turns recollections pretty darn accurate , least far phillies record goes september 1 1964 top n l standings w l gb philadelphia 79 51 cincinnati 74 57 5 1 2 st louis 72 59 7 1 2 san francisco 73 60 7 1 2 game game description remainder season date score opponent lead pitcher \( starting winner loser \) 9 1 4 3 houston 5 1 2 bunning \( 15 4 \) 9 2 2 1 houston 5 1 2 short \( 15 7 \) 9 3 0 6 houston 5 1 2 bennett \( 9 12 \) 9 4 5 3 san francisco 6 1 2 mahaffey baldschun \( 6 5 \) 9 5 \? \? win san francisco 6 1 2 bunning \( 16 4 \) 9 6 3 4 san francisco 5 1 2 short baldschun \( 6 6 \) 9 7 5 1 los angeles bennett \( 10 12 \) 1 3 los angeles 6 1 2 wise \( 5 3 \) 9 8 2 3 los angeles 6 mahaffey \( 12 7 \) 9 9 5 10 11 st louis 5 bunning baldschun \( 6 7 \) \( cardinals take 2nd place cincinnati \) 9 10 5 1 st louis 6 short \( 16 7 \) 9 11 1 0 san francisco 6 bennett \( 11 12 \) 9 12 1 9 san francisco 6 mahaffey \( 12 8 \) \( giants move tie 2nd st louis \) 9 13 4 1 10 san francisco 6 bunning \( 17 4 \) \( cardinals back sole possesion 2nd place \) 9 14 4 1 houston 6 1 2 short \( 17 7 \) 9 15 1 0 houston 6 bennett \( 12 12 \) 9 16 5 6 houston 6 bunning \( 17 5 \) 9 17 4 3 los angeles 6 1 2 wise \( 2 4 \) 9 18 3 4 los angeles 6 short baldschun \( 6 8 \) 9 19 3 4 16 los angeles 5 1 2 bennett baldschun \( 6 9 \) 9 20 3 2 los angeles 6 1 2 bunning \( 18 5 \) \( reds move back tie 2nd cardinals \) well far good phillies falls apart 9 21 0 1 cincinnati 5 1 2 mahaffey \( 12 9 \) \( reds take sole possesion 2nd place \) 9 22 2 9 cincinnati 4 1 2 short \( 17 8 \) 9 23 4 6 cincinnati 3 1 2 bennett \( 12 13 \) 9 24 3 5 milwaukee 3 bunning \( 18 6 \) 9 25 5 7 12 milwaukee 1 1 2 short \( 3 4 \) \( cards 2 1 2 back 3rd , giants 3 1 2 4th \) 9 26 4 6 milwaukee 1 2 mahaffey \( 2 5 \) 9 27 8 14 milwaukee 1 bunning \( 18 7 \) \( phils lose 7 1 2 games 7 days reds take 1st , cardinals 1 1 2 back 3rd \) 9 28 1 5 st louis 1 1 2 short \( 17 9 \) \( cardinals take 2nd place , phils drop 3rd \) 9 29 2 4 st louis 1 1 2 bennett \( 12 14 \) \( reds cardinals tied 1st \) 9 30 5 8 st louis 2 1 2 bunning \( 18 8 \) \( cardinals take 1 2 game lead reds \) 10 1 4 3 cincinnati 1 1 2 short \( 5 3 \) \( phillies halt 10 game losing streak cards lead reds 1 2 game \) 10 2 play cards lose mets , reds tied 1st , phils 1 game back 10 3 10 0 cincinnati 1 bunning \( 19 8 \) \( cards beat mets , take first 1 reds phillies \) whew ! finish ! final standings w l gb st louis 93 69 philadelphia 92 70 1 cincinnati 92 70 1 san francisco 90 72 3 n't appear phillies pitchers bunning short really , least four man rotation standard day , well along 10 game losing streak , time probably desperate win cost phillies substantial lead evaporated way used time may made problem worse , although bunning one games year final day 10 0 shutout reds cost reds share pennant bunning pitched complete game six hitter , striking five walking one would see , though , total innings year bunning short stacks rest league also notice phillies played every day least september 1 october 1 n't play substantially games teams , teams couple days stretch eric smith erics netcom com erics infoserv com ci 70262 , 3610
moakler romulus rutgers edu \( bam ! \) subject bob dylan baseball abstract distribution na organization rutgers univ , new brunswick , n j lines 49 little something found reading village voice , noted sports coverage , occasionally print interesting features year , predictions team analyses 1993 season presented form bob dylan lyrics n't article front , 'll give memorable ones remember know could dig interest \( tune homesick blues \) howe basement , mixing medicine george pavement thinking 'bout government wade boggs trench coat , bat , paid , says 's got bad back , wants get laid look kids , 's n't know , 's columbus mets \( tune like rolling stone \) upon time played fine threw away dykstra prime , n't \? people said beware cone , 's bound roam thought kidding used laugh , strawberry n't talk loud , n't seem proud , shop vince coleman next deal phillies \( tune highway 61 \) well daulton dykstra fun , keep highway 61 ! giants \( tune rubin carter \) story magowan , man st petersburg came pan , something never done , sits owner 's box one day could world ! bill moakler ! rutgers ! moakler remus rutgers edu po box ! atlantic alliance ! \( 908 \) 932 3465 new brunswick , nj ! con '93 ! free man !
kirsch staff tc umn edu \( dave 'almost cursed jays' kirsch \) subject going game keywords tickets \? , parking \? , \? nntp posting host staff tc umn edu organization li'l carlos hormones distribution usa lines 30 well , suffering intense fit minnesota induced cabin fever , 've decided road trip milwaukee take couple games weekend couple games county stadium great relieve tension , thought go wrigley game \? see cubs playing phillies sat \( 2 05 start , believe 's eastern time listed \) figured would fun bounce wrigley day game live little i'm wondering anyone \( esp fans \) advice 1 \) i'm taking 41 \( hwy \) south runs 94 , 's best way get wrigley \? i'm planning getting hour two early paying nose parking keep things easy 2 \) probable 'll able walk get seats \( 2 3 \) game day \? figure since 's early year , 's weather n't great able get tickets , 's best way get advance tickets call ticket office directly pick tickets call window \? 3 \) advice eat game \? 4 \) allow inflatable dolls \( present lundy \) bleachers \? \) dave hung like jim acker slider kirsch blue jays '93 kirsch staff tc umn edu new quotes context ! beat dead horse , 's couple o' weeks disappoints punishments discharges jackhammering stephen lawrence
sepinwal mail sas upenn edu \( alan sepinwall \) subject yankee fears organization university pennsylvania , school arts sciences lines 26 nntp posting host mail sas upenn edu would e mail , mailserver n't recognize something anyway , worst pitcher yanks mean currently team , go scott i'm , i'm ! sure , occasionally guy pitch well 5 6 innings , starts go insane sure sign 's losing stuff \( mind \) starts stalk around mound batters yell worst time yanks pitcher \? gotta go ed new york \? pitch new york \? 'nuff said ! i'm outta like vladimir ! alan sepinwall 's \? ice happens water gets cold \? kent happens people get sexually frustrated val kilmer , real genius
thf2 kimbark uchicago edu \( ted frank \) subject sandberg , runs , rbis \( notes jays vs indians series \) reply thf2 midway uchicago edu organization university chicago distribution na lines 23 article news rich bnr ca bratt crchh7a9 nosubdomain nodomain \( john bratt \) writes rbis runs scored two important offensive statistics talk obp slg want , fact remains team scores runs wins game ! flame away rbi 's \? team rbi 's n't necessarily win game yes , runs important team \( every newspaper rank team offense batting average \? \) individual player , runs rbis context dependent , tell us little player , teammates position batting order ted frank thf2 kimbark uchicago edu i'm sorry , card says moops u c law school standard disclaimers
spot colorado edu \( \) subject old predictions laugh nntp posting host spot colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 35 tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) writes uwovax uwo ca thu sep 12 10 35 58 1991 ron minor league manager yankees dunno happened maybe help 's major league coach rockies prediction doubly wrong prediction red sox cubs series broncos occur end world one finish top 10 offensive catagory year starter era 3 50 rangers fade begin august 'll give way angels still challenge end really making , may god strike thanks listening ! valentine dylan , con official usenet rabid fan major , u colorado , boulder colorado rockies clip sig po box , boulder , co 20 next rockies woof ! ! ! life bigger \( space blank \)
apanjabi guvax acc georgetown edu subject phils , nl east weak distribution world organization georgetown university lines 16 love people blaming phillies success weak division n't look record teams division \( read inter divisional play \) , 'll see east really kicking shit west know early , go atlanta strong 188 ba , cincinnati 2 7 coming sweep veteran 's stadium philadelphia , houston swept 's first three games phillies , western division friends , shows three best teams division may strong think ! ! phils way '93 braves hit like aaa club reds need marge bob
ua1vm ua edu \( charles rosen \) subject lots runs nntp posting host ua1vm ua edu organization university alabama , lines 4 noticed year lot high scoring games \( least nl \) believe one reason expansion teams thoughts \? charles
ua1vm ua edu \( charles rosen \) subject torre worst manager \? nntp posting host ua1vm ua edu organization university alabama , lines 61 article 93095 hydra gatech edu gt7469a prism gatech edu \( brian r landmann \) writes joe torre worst manager baseball anyone n't see sunday 's game , right hander pitching decides bench lankform , left handed hitter play jordan gilkey , right handers later , ninth inning bases loaded two outs puts lankford , 300 hitter power pinch runner uses luis alicea , 250 hitter power pinch hitter hell thinking information , lankford injured \( think shoulder rib cage \) , could use pinch hitter earlier game interview acquiring mark whiten commented fortunate cardinals get whiten whiten would regular even though meant gilkey would hurt , torre said liked gilkey coming bench gilkey hit 300 last year , start , guy would starting every team league believe whiten good cards much offensive capabilities , awesome defensively since actually thought offense instead defense \? \) forgot st louis gave , much far gilkey concerned , brian jordan , beat expect see gilkey jordan platoon lf furthermore , sundays game lankford thrown plate , replay showed bucky dent third base coach looking line waving lankford home , agree one soon larkin threw ball , knew lankford dead bird could dent known larkin would make perfect throw \? strongly believe torre one best managers baseball n't forget cards '91 close games went last place second place \( although braves twins last first climb \) division title , barely lost pennant race braves \( atlanta ever even considered firing never understand \) torre controls , cardinals heading right direction one thing , one game make season yes , lost reds , second best pitching staff national league \( first east \) , pretty good offense , redbirds win lot lose maybe year go way charles , enthusiastic fan charles rosen thirty four thirteen ! ! ! university alabama national champs ! ! ! roll tide ! ! ! , al \( need say \? \)
gerry macadam mpce mq edu au \( gerry \) subject bob dylan baseball abstract organization school mpce , macquarie university , australia lines 19 distribution world nntp posting host macadam mpce mq edu au originator gerry macadam mpce mq edu au reposted , without permission , rec music dylan article 1993apr9 virginia edu , buck vax museum upenn edu wrote like bob baseball , check current village voice \( april 13 \) , p 141 john hart written bob dylan baseball abstract , covered every team leagues example colorado an' silent bats shatter scores lines 're one many thousand runs behind rebecca buck vax museum upenn edu gerry
boone psc edu \( jon boone \) subject spanky \? organization pittsburgh supercomputing center , pittsburgh pa , usa lines 27 nntp posting host psc edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 mon , 12 apr 93 00 53 14 gmt 1993apr12 5700 mnemosyne cs du edu greg spira \( gspira nyx cs du edu \) wrote anybody pittsburgh area know mike lavalliere released \? last year kept saying slaught get bulk playing time , clearly better player point , leyland insisted keeping pretty strict platoon released \? n't make sense greg , story goes like spanky slow ! quicker , would still slaught tom prince , n't want lose prince order bring 11th pitcher slaught good spanky prince coming along nicely ! n't feel bad 's still gonna get 4 , 000 , 000 next two years 'll able wants jon boone network systems administrator boone psc edu cmu edu pittsburgh supercomputing center \( 412 \) 268 n't speak anyone , unless otherwise stated ! ! ! ! ! !
sbp002 acad drake edu subject braves pitching updatedir lines 12 nntp posting host acad drake edu organization drake university , des moines , iowa , usa clear 'd certainly rather team winning 4 1 games 2 1 games 2 1 game , luck going play much bigger role 4 1 game still need pitching staff hold opposing team one run sam sherri nichols snichols adobe com
sbp002 acad drake edu subject jewish baseball players \? lines 28 nntp posting host acad drake edu organization drake university , des moines , iowa , usa article 1qkkodinn5f5 jhunix hcf jhu edu , pablo jhunix hcf jhu edu \( pablo iglesias \) writes article 15apr93 14691229 0062 lafibm lafayette edu vb30 lafibm lafayette edu \( vb30 \) writes wondering friend talking day , \( reason \) trying come names jewish baseball players , past present n't able come much , except sandy koufax , \( somebody \) stankowitz , maybe john lowenstein anyone come know sounds pretty lame racking brains , humor us thanks help thanks bobby hank greenberg would famous , jewish faith actually affected play \( missing late season world series games yom kippur \) thought sandy koufax sam pablo iglesias pi ruth ece jhu edu
mss netcom com \( mark singer \) subject jose canseco 's swing 1992 vs 1986 organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) distribution na lines 62 article ucdavis edu ez027993 dale ucdavis edu \( gary built like villanueva huckabay \) writes going videos last night wrote excellent report 1 's much period needs lose 20 pounds , gain bulk 2 bat speed absolutely vanished conservatively , 'd say 's lost 4 7 bat speed , 's huge amount speed 3 open stance killing note acts sort like brian downing way open start , closes ball released downing could without significant head movement canseco ca n't also , note canseco n't always close stance way sometimes , hips open , sometimes , 're fully closed without good starting point , 's hard make adjustments swing understand \( unreliable source \) canseco considered expendable 's refused accept coaching batting stance 's brain trust came believe back problems exacerbated , caused , wide open stance , closing quickly swinging lot torque \( 's paraphrase remember \) event , canseco took road alone would decide stance , 's began believe would either begin lose ability hit average power aside away large sum cash could never touch , 'd never work , 'd entire swing apparently , sound like larussa second , drop 20 pounds cut weight work 's also objected canseco 's open stance resulting bad habits result back problems , 'll baseball three years , could still hit 600 hr , i'm repeating something heard possibly cause effect reverse beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
gspira nyx cs du edu \( greg spira \) subject jewish baseball players \? organization university denver , dept math comp sci lines 4 add steve , one time white sox reliever mets system , list greg
moakler romulus rutgers edu \( bam ! \) subject bob dylan baseball abstract distribution na organization rutgers univ , new brunswick , n j lines 42 little something found reading village voice , noted sports coverage , occasionally print interesting features year , predictions team analyses 1993 season presented form bob dylan lyrics n't article front , 'll give memorable ones remember know could dig interest \( tune homesick blues \) howe basement , mixing medicine george pavement thinking 'bout government wade boggs trench coat , bat , paid , says 's got bad back , wants get laid look kids , 's n't know , 's columbus mets \( tune like rolling stone \) upon time played fine threw away dykstra prime , n't \? people said beware cone , 's bound roam thought kidding used laugh , strawberry n't talk loud , n't seem proud , shop vince coleman next deal phillies \( tune highway 61 \) well daulton dykstra fun , keep highway 61 ! giants \( tune rubin carter \) story magowan , man st petersburg came pan , something never done , 's sit owner 's box one day could world !
mss netcom com \( mark singer \) subject jewish baseball players \? organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 18 article 15apr93 14691229 0062 lafibm lafayette edu vb30 lafibm lafayette edu \( vb30 \) writes 's stankiewicz , stankowitz , 's jewish 's polish \( way , correct pronunciation according stanky , kev itch get wrong \) polish jewish mutually exclusive mark singer mss netcom com
mss netcom com \( mark singer \) subject pleasant yankee surprises organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 48 article 1993apr15 cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) writes article 1993apr15 7200 alleg edu luriem alleg edu \( michael lurie \) liberalizer writes 'd willing make two 1 \) snow n't win roy 2 \) mattingly baseball within five years i'm skeptical first , n't think snow good player , losing team n't history handy , n't recall preponderance roy 's come winning teams fact , think team performance generally irrelevant , almost always deserving candidate wins wrong \? necessarily losing team staff still weak , everyday lineup quite well , thank snow playing great salmon learning make adjustments appears fine , even 's flora ready come gonzales gruber 'll manage hot corner polonia curtis steady even myers contributing personally , think finish 500 makes winning team beastmaster i'm skeptical second back mattingly 32 year , many players play 40 \? many , n't chronic back problems 32 could wrong either , think 's smart way bet cheers , valentine mark singer mss netcom com
mtt kepler unh edu \( matthew thompson \) subject music censorship survey please fill organization university new hampshire durham , nh lines 68 nntp posting host kepler unh edu hello , i'm paper censorship music would appreciate took time participate survey please answer question asks \( \? ' simply means room explain answer , chose \) last question comments , questions , suggestions thank advance , please e mail address end \) male female ii \) age \? iii \) major occupation \? iv \) type music listen \( check apply \) \? hard rock b metal c alternative blues e rap f jazz g soft rock h easy listening country j classical k hard core l dance new age n others \( miss \? \) 1 \) think recordings objectionable offensive lyrics labeled \? yes \? 2 \) think certain recordings banned minors \( 18 years age \) \? yes \? 3 \) think certain recordings banned period yes \? 4 \) yes , decide parents b government c music industry feel free add comments 5 \) think less done record sales , think present labeling system enough \? 6 \) definition censorship \? also , feel free add comments , suggestions , questions , explanations please e mail mtt kepler unh edu hit 'r' reply thanks matthew thompson disclaimer responses used paper , \( sp \? \) unless person specifies name used sig closed repairs , matthew thompson ! pound , pound , ouch duh \? e mail mtt kepler unh edu unh edu
catfish lcs mit edu \( frank kim \) subject erickson , keith miller \? organization mit laboratory computer science lines 12 hi , wondering anyone knew erickson keith miller expected come back exactly sincerely , frank kim
mss netcom com \( mark singer \) subject dave kingman hall fame keywords hall fame , winfield , kingman , murray , joe lundy , \) organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) distribution na lines 15 i'm kingman fan thought 'd point 's player history five three hr games joe carter four eddie murray three mccovey gehrig also three ruth , mays , foxx dawson two n't think reggie 's ws game counts , else believe would also two beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
fls keynes econ duke edu \( forrest smith \) subject braves pitching updatedir distribution usa organization duke university durham , n c lines 14 nntp posting host keynes econ duke edu article 1993apr14 1 ulkyvx louisville edu pjtier01 ulkyvx louisville edu writes braves continue average 3 runs game , 3 finish p tierney , braves run production falls 1 per game , certainly 's headed \( 're lucky \) , mean 'll finish first \? econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke correspondents email changed e l new address fls econ duke edu f mail bounces , try fls raphael acpub duke edu u
gspira nyx cs du edu \( greg spira \) subject sandberg , runs , rbis \( notes jays vs indians series \) organization university denver , dept math comp sci distribution na lines 28 bratt crchh7a9 nosubdomain nodomain \( john bratt \) writes rbis runs scored two important offensive statistics actually , 're pretty worthless , want evaluate players stats rbis runs scored banned confuse victims mediot brainwashing like talk obp slg want , fact remains team scores runs wins game ! uh , \? 've explained use obp slg evaluate players precisely team scores runs wins game traditional baseball stats gotten way far away methods enable fans see contributes runs scored 's obp , slg , runs created , linear weights , etc come simplify matters easily measure player 's offensive contribution team 's runs scored thank making case nice day greg
subject wfan csc2imd cabell vcu edu \( ian derby \) expires sat , 1 may 1993 04 00 00 gmt organization virginia commonwealth university lines 41 , 's nuts , wip second none sports station n't tony bruno working espn radio al friday night hockey suck live richmond va , visit phila often , way get washington \) wip hear fan night wherever go \( signal used , played golden \) ca n't avoid three , wip best hosts hands chuck n't homer , neither jody mac generic placed fact heard fan notice theme music identical ownership \? \? think ! wip totally original hosts actually personality \( knock tem \( team \) fan mike mad dog good \) mean comparing morning guys philadelphia ones washington total joke anyway , like fan wip , think edge goes get back philly , go withdraw cause richmond nada except national sports line \( guys totally clueless \) really mad cancelled steve fredericks sports phone phillies games \( another strong station , 's station , still phillies \) started listening fan heard went finally heard last summer n't guy ny fans got glad hear back philly went see eagles games admit , die hard eagles fan wip basically eagles station 365 days year , bet phillies control right knock g cobb , like knows eagles like book remember weekend went play san fran , \( everyone thought eagles would blown away \) cobb said eagles usually play best one believe win well inches shy pulling victory well 's 02
subject best csc2imd cabell vcu edu \( ian derby \) expires sat , 1 may 1993 04 00 00 gmt organization virginia commonwealth university keywords sportswriters summary sportswriters lines 19 since someone brought sports radio , howabout sportswriting \? \? \? \( anyone give opinion \) city think best sports coverage terms print media \? \( general questions \) washington post better philadelphia ny times \? howabout philadelphia daily news compared new york daily news \? notice papers subjective objective home team \?
gspira nyx cs du edu \( greg spira \) subject notes jays vs indians series organization university denver , dept math comp sci distribution na lines 30 something else consider alomar 's h r splits 500 363 slg , 444 369 obp ! baerga 's 486 424 392 318 pretty clearly , alomar got huge boost home park necessarily could mean , could mean hit lot better home road \( see frank home road splits '91 example \) would guess alomar 's split due skydome , probably due coincidence 's way sure , course , hitters skydome seems regularly help lot right handed home run hitters , alomar home run hitter 'd say could make good equal right p rated baerga higher , actually p 's bogus fielding stats , rate alomar worst defensive second baseman league career basis , think p 's fielding stats may mean something , basis comes ridiculous results like alomar may god fielding media says , sure n't worst baseball offensively , p rate alomar much higher last year regarding vs b argument , 'll say 're good players different strengths bright future greg
\( aplcomm jhuapl edu \) subject time best players organization master peon lines 19 article 1993apr14 princeton edu , roger crux princeton edu \( roger lustig \) writes article 1993apr13 bsu ucs , 00mbstultz leo bsuvc bsu edu writes 've recently working project determine greatest players respective 2b career u johnny hodapp , greatest 2nd baseman cleveland indians history \? 225 hits 1930 , consistantly 300 great , great second baseman jon johnny hodapp aplcomm jhuapl edu
rkoffler ux4 cso uiuc edu \( bighelmet \) subject best keywords sportswriters organization university illinois urbana lines 21 csc2imd cabell vcu edu \( ian derby \) writes since someone brought sports radio , howabout sportswriting \? \? \? happen big fan jayson stark baseball writer philadelphia inquirer every tuesday writes week review column writes unusual situations occured week unusual stats section called week stupid lines mets ralph kiner every year contest stands last guy get hit also writes baseball america column sort highlights week review , check column sometime might make laugh rob live day day rkoffler ux4 cso uiuc edu dream tomorrow
tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) subject pleasant yankee surprises organization cornell univ cs dept , ithaca ny 14853 lines 45 article netcom com mss netcom com \( mark singer \) writes n't history handy , n't recall preponderance roy 's come winning teams fact , think team performance generally irrelevant , almost always deserving candidate wins wrong \? really , though would n't personally say deserving candidate wins rarely player win roy called mid season , several recent years factor mediot biases anything else \( wonder hits like capable , receive votes \? 's 31 , could long career ahead ! \) necessarily losing team staff still weak , everyday lineup quite well , thank snow playing great salmon learning make adjustments appears fine , even 's flora ready come gonzales gruber 'll manage hot corner polonia curtis steady even myers contributing personally , think finish 500 makes winning team think second division team finish ahead royals , mariners , possibly athletics n't think 'll 500 \( think east stronger year \) last year pitching bad offense horrible year offense better , pitching still pretty bad even finley returns form , wo n't replace lost abbott sanderson \? farrell \? n't believe ba may good , decent speed , offense lacks punch n't bona fide power hitters \( salmon , snow , davis , curtis \? none 20 hr potential \) cheers , valentine p al team steals last week \? go go tigers ! mediots finally managed convince needed balance lineup see , scoring many runs consistently gotta run break
mtt kepler unh edu \( matthew thompson \) subject survey organization university new hampshire durham , nh lines 17 nntp posting host kepler unh edu keywords survey , complaints yes , know rec music , \( someone already pointed , thanks know \) , i'm trying get random sample also i'm desperate please , n't mail complaining n't belong wasting bandwidth affects everybody readers music groups please either complete survey , hit 'n' , 'll bounce back complaints thank matt matthew thompson electrical computer engineering university new hampshire e mail mtt kepler unh edu evil twin unh edu
luriem alleg edu \( michael lurie \) liberalizer subject jewish baseball players \? organization allegheny college article 1993apr15 1 acad drake edu sbp002 acad drake edu writes remember reading somewhere 7 league jewish 50 's , practically nobody
luriem alleg edu \( michael lurie \) liberalizer subject think going cry yankees lose organization allegheny college ca n't believe , howe era 80 's improving ! ! ! key pitches great game , screw
luriem alleg edu \( michael lurie \) liberalizer subject jewish baseball players \? organization allegheny college article unix amherst edu unix amherst edu \( joshua lawrence \) writes baseball players , past present n't able come much , except sandy koufax , \( somebody \) stankowitz , maybe john lowenstein anyone come know sounds pretty lame racking brains , humor us thanks help john lowenstein definately jewish many baltimore thought especially told baltimore jewish times later admitted joke stanky jewish , least , doubt lot jewish people n't jewish names
luriem alleg edu \( michael lurie \) liberalizer subject pleasant yankee surprises organization allegheny college article 1993apr15 cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) writes article 1993apr15 7200 alleg edu luriem alleg edu \( michael lurie \) liberalizer writes actually , kind liked trade trade rookie year , snow , mattingly first another 8 years , bother 'd willing make two 1 \) snow n't win roy 2 \) mattingly baseball within five years , quite correct , using wishful thinking jt snow wasting away , abbott provide great team
luriem alleg edu \( michael lurie \) liberalizer subject jewish baseball players \? organization allegheny college article 1qkkodinn5f5 jhunix hcf jhu edu pablo jhunix hcf jhu edu \( pablo iglesias \) writes article 15apr93 14691229 0062 lafibm lafayette edu vb30 lafibm lafayette edu \( vb30 \) writes hank greenberg would famous , jewish faith actually affected play \( missing late season world series games yom kippur \) missed world series game jewish day
jplee cymbal calpoly edu \( jason lee \) subject ryan 2 5 weeks ! ! organization california polytechnic state university , san luis obispo lines 12 news uta edu \( \) nolan ryan torn right knee surgery expected miss 2 5 weeks 's bad really hoped nolan could end career great year suppose still hope jason lee jplee oboe calpoly edu jlee cash busfac calpoly edu giants e pi 1 0 beautiful equation mathematics magic sad words tongue pen , saddest number might john greenleaf whittier 155
gt0523e prism gatech edu \( michael andre mule \) subject braves offensive offense distribution usa organization georgia institute technology lines 16 deion sanders hit home run ab today nixon 1 4 infield single deion 's batting 400 nixon around 200 would start \? wise , bobby see y'all ballyard go braves chop chop michael mule' michael andre mule georgia institute technology , atlanta georgia , 30332 uucp ! decvax , hplabs , ncar , purdue , rutgers ! gatech ! prism ! gt0523e internet gt0523e prism gatech edu
z ccsvax sfasu edu subject astros real \? organization stephen f austin state university lines 6 thinks astros going places \? \? \? they're currently first place they're 5 4 , 5 1 road !
symantec com \( jimmy kuo \) subject cubs expos roster questions organization symantec peter norton group lines 5 nntp posting host 155 64 151 14 alird msu oscs montana edu writes today \( 4 14 \) cubs activated p mike harkey dl , move make room harkey \? shawn
snichols adobe com \( sherri nichols \) subject let 's talk phillies organization adobe systems incorporated lines 16 article 1993apr15 leland stanford edu leland stanford edu \( emery ethan chen \) writes one phrase fuck ! ! ! ! thanks perhaps 's time start rec sport baseball graffiti , go yell insults leave rest us peace sherri nichols snichols adobe com
snichols adobe com \( sherri nichols \) subject braves pitching updatedir organization adobe systems incorporated lines 21 article 1993apr15 1 acad drake edu sbp002 acad drake edu writes clear 'd certainly rather team winning 4 1 games 2 1 games 2 1 game , luck going play much bigger role 4 1 game still need pitching staff hold opposing team one run yeah , 's point \? still need offense score runs allow , braves fine pitching staff 's still half game sherri nichols snichols adobe com
snichols adobe com \( sherri nichols \) subject spanky \? organization adobe systems incorporated lines 18 article psc edu boone psc edu \( jon boone \) writes spanky slow ! quicker , would still slaught tom prince , n't want lose prince order bring 11th pitcher slaught good spanky prince coming along nicely ! tom prince 28 year old hit catcher think young ca n't begin fathom pirates afraid losing guy , 's aaa last 5 seasons pirates released kirk gibson last year prince options , eventually sent prince anyway , cleared waivers without 's another year older , still ca n't hit think would n't clear waivers \? would care \? sherri nichols snichols adobe com
jrogoff scott skidmore edu \( jay rogoff \) subject new home bosox ! ! ! organization skidmore college , saratoga springs ny lines 19 agree , though 'd also happy stadium looks like new new park also made baseball unlike three rivers , vet , , etc , 's football park also play baseball 're multipurpose subject , let 's forget shea , designed accommodate mets jets first stadium \( think \) box seats rollers could oriented right angles baseball parallel football course , jets gone jersey \( truly good football stadium \) , mets saddled multipurpose stadium , 's circular , seats almost always far action mets announcers kiner murphy particular always hyped beautiful shea stadium , truly jay
jrogoff scott skidmore edu \( jay rogoff \) subject orioles trivia organization skidmore college , saratoga springs ny lines 6 bunker mcnally later pappas , , steve barber , \? jay
mss netcom com \( mark singer \) subject organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 64 media beating incident dodger stadium wednesday death , n't seen anything rsb yet gerald perry cardinals pinch hit eighth inning two club run stroked line drive right field corner ball cleared three foot high fence went crowd darryl , racing right center , got spot time reach glove short fence , missed ball fan sitting front row , wearing , reached caught ball home run 've seen replay several times concluded darryl missed ball , fan 's glove essentially behind darryl 's several dodger fans seats immediate vicinity claimed fan unquestionably interfered strawberry cannot disputed , however , fan caught ball never took eye oblivious fielder playing also quite exuberant soon realized made catch disappeared immediately , however , strawberry went tirade man reports indicate used lot profanity accused man interference , therefore costing dodgers game shortly afterwards fans hurled food beverages toward man made catch dodger stadium officials started remove park , relocated another area interview game , lasorda blamed fan loss strawberry also went tirade fans stupid n't care winning l times columnists similarly blasted man made catch dodger game public address announcer makes speech wherein says fans welcome balls hit stands long interfere field play fan wrong \? aware situation acted avoid possibility interference \? human reacting \? way , season ticket holder request dodgers relocated seats another area stadium future interference impossible others questioned darryl concerned fan grand total 1 rbi first nine games question right center left handed pull hitter game line closer play , certainly would much better chance catching ball guess big debate continues responsibilities fan beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
mizar usc edu \( dodger \) subject gross dodger fans organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 60 nntp posting host mizar usc edu went dodgers game tonight cap night astacio pitched ok , control trouble night first , walked batter , balked second , single scored run , batter taking second throw home another single made score 2 0 cards lasorda tried new line featuring butler , reed , piazza batting third ! darryl eric benched favor snyder webster piazza homered first make score 2 1 cards dodgers tied game second two single offerman fourth inning , astacio already made 80 pitches , score still 2 2 dodger defense made several impressive plays piazza looked great behind plate , gunning runner trying steal second , throwing runner first strayed bit first base , etc karros also made spectacular play , keeping ball going outfield runner first sure ball going , kept running past second karros got threw third easily got runner third heart sank 7th gross got warm bullpen astacio lifted pinch hitter , gross entered game score still 2 2 , dodger fans knew gross tuesday , pitching 2 1 3 innings , forcing lasorda use much bullpen 15 inning game effect next night gross fresh given light work tuesday gross lived name walked first batter , gave hit second , walked bases loaded grounder resulted force home , zeile lifted scoring fly ball make 3 2 cards gross paid little attention runners , next thing knew , cards stolen fourth run runner first eventually tagged run , 4th run scored long meanwhile , dodgers mounted little offense second inning lee smith pitched ninth little trouble getting karros wallach \( anyone trouble wallach days \? \) cory snyder collected first hit dodger , single , offense dodgers could mount smith got third straight save dodgers got free dodger cap good look piazza piazza keeps year , strong candidate rookie year honors though really early , karros already showing signs sophomore jinx year final score cardinals 4 runs 7 hits dodgers 2 runs 7 hits dodger
stein u washington edu \( geoff anderson \) subject fenway gif organization university washington , seattle lines 11 nntp posting host stein u washington edu article umassd edu acsddc smucs1 umassd edu writes wondering anyone kind fenway park gif would appreciate someone could send one thanks advance dan ! would like park action gif jpeg baseball geoff
joel math toronto edu \( joel chan \) subject game score report organization department mathematics , university toronto lines 12 curiosity , happened weekly al nl game score reports \? used enjoy reading throughout summer last two years , joel joel chan joel math toronto edu , dept mathematics , university toronto toronto blue jays 1992 world series champs ! history ignore condemned repeat math , comic strip betty
sscl uwo ca subject jays game organization social science computing laboratory keywords score \? nntp posting host sscl uwo ca lines 6 anyone know outcome tonight 's jays game \? home runs \? winning pitcher \? eco gods u w
sheehan aludra usc edu \( joseph sheehan \) subject young catchers organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 120 nntp posting host aludra usc edu summary lopez better current brave catchers ! keywords solid ! good article netcom com mss netcom com \( mark singer \) writes article 1993apr5 cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) writes i'm still catching spring break , bear bigs , especially n't even played aaa ball certainly believe kid going good day , really need rush , especially since mega million dollar staff probably well served battery mate game calling pitcher handling time come let 's give time aaa lopez proven , 1400 ab minor leagues , ready play majors rushed players clearly good aa play behind major league level wasting time , may actually court case major league management keeping , aaa maybe need improve writing skills lopez , ordinary defensively , likely hit well age 22 unless lopez defensively \( i'm , 165 born play second base \) \) , belongs major leagues training earn chance \? maybe full time job , least couple starts ab prove worth \? gee n't know 17 abs sounds pretty good ! good reasoning kid play back role rather start every day aaa talk gm valentine n't saying back 's saying put position win job major leagues , , imho , would given opportunity \( val , i'm , please let know \) far come two arguments lopez 1 \) ordinary defensively 2 \) young , players suck young first irrelevant 's trying make majors bat second involves seriously warped reasoning valentine ok players ready bigs age 22 \( see current related posting clayton , one favorites \) players benefit , rather hurt , playing aaa catchers need solid defensively players help clubs bigs arguments lopez braves year players ready 1 \) best 2 \) ones likely benefit majors lopez middle road prospect 's real thing , important thing player hit lopez miles better olson berryhill defense good enough greenville , richmond , 's good enough atlanta really awful defensively , would longer catcher see sprague , ed braves two catchers demonstrated solid abilities call games , work pitchers , throw runners superstars mind , solid , experienced veterans braves solid lineup two big bats outfield , excellent platoon first , solid mvp candidate third one better hitting shortstops center field platoon probably hit 300 however good offset differential experience defensive ability kid improve playing aaa , probably wo n't reserve big club oh , start ok first , solid ! good want good players solid one words used describe nice white guys really n't good baseball think twg without caps 's losing strategy say , solid guys , n't need improve used four times paragraph , btw experienced might add , though , greg olson damon berryhill n't exactly carter fisk olson played three years , berryhill five , although 90 91 wash difference , imho , olson valle supporting cast two big bats hrm like justice , find mr gant 's trend disturbing call one maybe braves' platoon ok , neither player value outside platoon bream vs lh hunter vs rh awful 'll leave comment alone pendleton wasted much bandwidth already cf platoon hits 300 , 'll mr 's midnight run forbes , live ny la \( got , mike \? \) n't cox call pitches , anyway \? goodness believe poster thinks lopez held future earning potential \? earth people braves made decision \? idiots built \? nope 're baseball management , possible short sighted collection people nation believe goes , mark \? think frank thomas needed three months aaa 1990 \? cal eldred n't really better ricky bones last year \? i'm treasure 're mostly polite make defensible , flawed cases wit , past , admitted wrong qualify r b 'll make sdcn , yet \) beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com sheehan aludra usc edu greg , pitching like voice 213 743 gore , i'm afraid linda , sportscenter 4 8 93
st902415 pip cc brandeis edu \( adam levin \) subject best reply st902415 pip cc brandeis edu organization brandeis university lines 23 article news cso uiuc edu , rkoffler ux4 cso uiuc edu \( bighelmet \) writes csc2imd cabell vcu edu \( ian derby \) writes since someone brought sports radio , howabout sportswriting \? \? \? happen big fan jayson stark baseball writer philadelphia inquirer every tuesday writes week review column writes unusual situations occured week unusual stats section called week stupid lines mets ralph kiner every year contest stands last guy get hit also writes baseball america column sort highlights week review , check column sometime might make laugh might \? 'd sense humor ! favorite stuff zero heros , players n't hit homers long time , \( named , ca n't remember \) , box score line week incidentally , found column moved sundays get dad send boston every week great stuff ! adam phillies levin
steph pegasus cs uiuc edu \( dale stephenson \) subject phils , nl east weak organization university illinois , dept comp sci , urbana , il lines 10 1993apr15 3371 guvax acc georgetown edu apanjabi guvax acc georgetown edu writes braves hit like aaa club n't read braves hitters aaa club \? dale j stephenson \( steph cs uiuc edu \) baseball fanatic considered good look wise , especially overburdened information j golden kimball
binkley let rug nl \( p binkley \) subject jewish baseball players \? lines 7 nntp posting host let rug nl organization der , groningen , nl article jewish major leaguers recent issue fields , used minnesota review baseball recall , amazing amount research , long list players large bibliography peter binkley binkley let rug nl
st902415 pip cc brandeis edu \( adam levin \) subject early bbddd returns \? reply st902415 pip cc brandeis edu organization brandeis university lines 13 curious anyone started standout early season bb ddd year expect phillies staff , getting wins , would rank luis gonzalez derrick may among early league leaders , 6 bombs come expense neither exactly know prowess past rockies early \? know mile high produced ton runs , launching pad everyone expected yet \? concerned fan bb ddd , adam witness phillies lone loss season far levin
randall informix com \( randall rhea \) subject royals organization informix software , inc lines 14 royals darkness void time play , shame descends upon land like cold front canada humiliation lived shall ever live utterly completely doomed , guess 're ok randall rhea informix software , inc project manager , mis sales marketing systems uunet ! pyramid ! infmx ! randall
eskimo com \( craig richardson \) subject notes jays vs indians series article eskimo dea distribution na organization eskimo north \( 206 \) 367 3837 eskimo com lines 35 article 1993apr15 webo dg com lyford webo dg com \( lyford beverage \) writes article 1993apr13 cs cornell edu , tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) writes article netcom com rudy netcom com \( rudy wade \) writes article 2pm cs dal ca niguma ug cs dal ca \( gord niguma \) writes probably n't even good season alomar last year snip uh , yes baerga lot flash , alomar better hitter last year stats deleted 've seen fascinating say alomar better hitter last year , immediately follow numbers showing baerga better year category see shows advantage alomar obp nominate last bit anti quote week alomar 50 point advantage important offensive category , baerga , studied joe carter school burning , impressive mediot stats , largely due opportunities rather quality lines fairly close value , edge alomar baerga ai n't chopped liver , alomar still man beat among al second basemen craig craig richardson \( eskimo com formerly eskimo celestial com \) \) gm \( \) gm seattle \( \) gm manager tacoma black \( \) gm new jack city \( kl \) tacoma black growing , excited team ! future begins tomorrow
oasys dt navy mil \( kevin day \) subject lots runs reply oasys dt navy mil \( kevin day \) organization carderock division , nswc , bethesda , md lines 18 rec sport baseball , ua1vm ua edu \( charles rosen \) writes noticed year lot high scoring games \( least nl \) believe one reason expansion teams thoughts \? except fact seems lot high scoring al games also n't think expansion teams directly affect k scott day \( oasys dt navy mil \) carderock division , naval surface warfare center code bethesda , maryland 20084 5000 point remember government gives must first take away john coleman
bnlux1 bnl gov \( kenton yee \) subject proposed catcher sub rule organization national laboratory , , ny lines 19 lot teams carry 3 catchers 25 man roster , 3rd catcher seldom ever used insurance case extra innings 2nd catcher injured game free roster spot extra pinch hitter reliever , invoke catcher substitution rule last roster catcher team injured game , team permitted substitute place defensive purposes catcher previously yanked game given rule , team would n't need 3 roster catchers 3rd catcher could playing aaa non roster bullpen catcher ken
dswartz osf org \( dan swartzendruber \) subject dopson pitches first shutout red sox win 6 0 organization open software foundation research institute lines 18 article 941 news cso uiuc edu cka52397 uxa cso uiuc edu \( oriolefan uiuc \) writes jmann vineland pubs stratus com \( jim mann \) writes deleted someone told game started 10 05 cdt true \? \? right mind would go game monday \? \? \? \? keep mind today patriots day , state holiday think might floating holiday , given marathon also happens day , people n't go include std disclaimer h dan
00mbstultz leo bsuvc bsu edu subject time peak players organization ball state university , muncie , univ computing svc 's lines 195 last week posted time greatest players \( several names sorry ! \) week , 's time greatest peak players evaluated following players 4 seasons constituted prime peak years \( 3 5 seemed many settled 4 \) sources , usual , include total baseball 1993 \( biased \) opinions goes , feel free comment 1 ted williams \( includes season war \) missed actual peak years 2 babe ruth 3 walter johnson 4 mickey mantle 5 mike schmidt \( actual peak year shortened strike \) 6 bonds \( currently peak \) 7 wagner 8 ty cobb 9 speaker 10 willie mays 11 lefty grove 12 sandy koufax 13 joe morgan 14 ed walsh 15 christy mathewson 16 lou gehrig 17 foxx 18 cal ripken jr 19 pete alexander 20 cy young 21 tim raines 22 rickey henderson \( , strike year '81 included \) 23 carl yastrzemski 24 jackie robinson 25 joe dimaggio 26 rogers hornsby 27 george 28 eddie collins 29 hank aaron 30 stan musial 31 joe jackson 32 wade boggs 33 charlie 34 ernie banks 35 bob gibson 36 carl hubbell 37 robin yount 38 rod carew 39 chuck klein 40 willie mccovey 41 frank robinson 42 tom seaver 43 roger clemens \( arguably , still peak \) 44 mel ott 45 frank baker 46 nap \( peak came suspect league \) 47 dizzy trout 48 george brett 49 brown 50 ryne sandberg 1b peak 1 \) gehrig 2 \) foxx 3 \) 4 \) mccovey 5 \) greenberg 6 \) frank thomas \( projected sorry \) 7 \) dick allen 8 \) johnny mize 9 \) eddie murray \( yes , mr consistency peak \) 10 \) bill terry 2b 1 \) morgan 2 \) j robinson 3 \) collins 4 \) hornsby 5 \) 6 \) carew \( treated 2b , even though played 1b \) 7 \) sandberg 8 \) bobby 9 \) nap 10 \) bill herman , \( tough call \) 3b \) 1 \) schmidt 2 \) boggs 3 \) f baker 4 \) brett 5 \) ed mathews 6 \) ron santo 7 \) 8 \) ken 9 \) buddy bell 10 \) darrell evans ss 1 \) wagner 2 \) ripken 3 \) banks 4 \) yount 5 \) john lloyd \( estimated \) 6 \) vaughan 7 \) barry larkin \( still peak \? \) 8 \) lou boudreau 9 \) ozzie smith 10 \) joe sewell lf 1 \) williams 2 \) ba bonds 3 \) raines 4 \) henderson \( actually 2 peaks 80 83 83 86 \) 5 \) yastrzemski 6 \) musial 7 \) j jackson 8 \) ralph kiner 9 \) al simmons 10 \) george foster 11 \) willie cf 1 \) mantle 2 \) cobb 3 \) speaker 4 \) mays 5 \) dimaggio 6 \) oscar charleston \( , estimated \) 7 \) duke snider 8 \) ken griffey jr \( personal assumption \) 9 \) kirby puckett 10 \) ashburn 11 \) dale murphy \( strike season \? \) rf 1 \) ruth 2 \) aaron 3 \) klein 4 \) f robinson 5 \) ott 6 \) roberto clemente 7 \) tony gwynn 8 \) dave parker 9 \) reggie jackson 10 \) harry 11 \) jose canseco 12 \) darryl strawberry c 1 \) josh gibson \( estimated \) 2 \) mickey cochrane 3 \) gary carter 4 \) johnny bench 5 \) roy campanella 6 \) yogi 7 \) bill dickey 8 \) 9 \) howard 10 \) ted simmons 11 \) joe torre p 1 \) w johnson 2 \) grove 3 \) koufax 4 \) walsh 5 \) mathewson 6 \) alexander 7 \) young 8 \) gibson 9 \) hubbell 10 \) seaver 11 \) clemens 12 \) paige \( estimated \) 13 \) trout 14 \) juan 15 \) brown 16 \) joe wood 17 \) dave 18 \) jim palmer 19 \) bob lemon 20 \) jenkins rp 1 \) cares \? hope surprises raines \? carter bench \? ripken banks \? bonds mays \? check numbers player comparison numbers rest players year \( \) , 'll see i'm fairly close ranking system \( primarily based total player rating \) four consecutive years enjoy , mike
maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) subject jack morris organization dept computer science , laurentian university , sudbury , lines 71 sdcc12 ucsd edu demers cs ucsd edu \( david demers \) writes article 1993apr19 ramsey cs laurentian ca , maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) writes facts morris shown us takes play ws winning club clemens n't take play ws winning club \? way knowing cannot separate morris' tion rest team 's one way ing best baseball looking scoreboard end game game determines team best day end season , team best often best division playoffs determine best best point decision making pro used determine best score game lates teams individual players method inherent baseball comparing individual performances , , , baseball team game say one player better another able say ab player 's team would played better player b lineup sheer speculation impossible ascertain want select group statistics claim clemens done better statistics criteria , fine able prove statistics measure individual 's contribution winning ws measure best meaning context base ball prove clemens contributes ws morris evaluation clemens totally sub mere opinion yet see predict ws winner greater accuracy jeanne dixon fact morris n't win ballgames , toronto , spite morris' contribution explained exactly jays morris pitching boston wins clemens pitching saying morris better clemens saying individual comparisons players totally meaningless anyone claiming clemens better based era missed point baseball many , many times either stupid stubborn grasp n't rude completely consumed post hoc , ergo propter hoc fallacy say means either missed entire point argument , committed fallacy saying morris better clemens rings \( although , tongue cheek , claimed past \) saying impossible isolate individual 's performance team 's purpose comparing individual 's performance another individual 's per stats nice hobby 's new knowledge produced poster claims morris better clemens rings , poster less incorrect rest cordially , always , maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca many morons rm little time
demers cs ucsd edu \( david demers \) subject hbp \? bb \? big cat \? distribution na organization cse dept , uc san diego lines 15 nntp posting host ucsd edu article 36s odin corp sgi com , kubey sgi com \( ken kubey \) writes n't blame players like galarraga , dawson mcgee swing strike put ball play well , problem ! get pretty annoyed swing non strikes make outs especially ball four 3 2 counts dave dave demers demers cs ucsd edu computer science engineering 0114 demers cs ucsd bitnet uc san diego ! ucsd ! cs ! demers la jolla , ca 92093 0114 \( 619 \) 534 0688 , 8187 , fax \( 619 \) 534 7029
kirsch staff tc umn edu \( dave 'almost cursed jays' kirsch \) subject jose canseco 's swing 1992 vs 1986 nntp posting host staff tc umn edu organization li'l carlos hormones lines 68 article ucdavis edu ez027993 dale ucdavis edu \( gary villanueva huckabay \) writes 's certainly easy use frame advance tape , simply count frames five times , try throw 's perfect , 's better blow head large metal object ah , finally found use super slo mo frame advance babes heat congrats ! wish films instead tapes , preferably rather 24 , i'm , 'd like ten million dollars , able eat anything want never gain weight , either trust , 'd helluva time manipulating besides , converted film video 'd kinds artifacts difference frame rate \( unless 're expert 3 2 pulldown laserdisc company something \) gary 's list ten slowest bats baseball hey , fair ! alfredo griffin \? guy practically pivot bat around along body gary 's list hell hit like \? 1 julio franco 2 phil plantier 9 darren daulton daulton n't strike strange 's little bit quiet plate , like franco , gets bat hitting zone level plane first time watched julio franco , n't think anyone could hit like marvel easy makes look every time makes contact , 's solid 's got good power fields rarely caught ready pitch wonder phil plantier severe bout practice swing 'on \? \) sure looks like \) 'bout one add list travis fryman \? guy plants front foot seems swing across body generates lot power , keep thinking could generate even could get better pivot hips gary 's list 'd give dave kirsch 's kidneys swing like well , 're already spoken \( several people \) , 'd add robbie alomar 's name list , among others really like dean palmer 's swing , twisted reason , well pedro munoz 's swing 's i'm looking derrick may 's tapes tonight , along troy 's guy serious ox thought may looks like 've taught turn ball imho , 's going fall love power start pulling ball point 's going see lots sliders low away unless adjusts quickly starts doubles left left center , imho 're going see good number weak grounders right side infield next month dave hung like jim acker slider kirsch blue jays '93 kirsch staff tc umn edu new quotes context ! beat dead horse , 's couple o' weeks disappoints punishments discharges jackhammering stephen lawrence
vigil esca com \( sandra vigil \) subject hispanic star team organization esca corporation , bellevue wa lines 49 icop csa bu edu \( antonio pera \) writes hispanic magazine \( april 1993 \) couple interesting articles hispanic players including hispanic star team major points npr 's morning edition aired report morning \( 4 19 \) hispanic latin american players mlb many problems faced black negro african american players first entered league however , although baseball adjusted presence black players , many hispanic players still labor stereotype , hot blooded , flashy report also despite rantings \( word \) jackson baseballs discrimination black players upper , baseball actually done much better black players hispanic players another interesting point language barrier problem reporter elaborated interview sierra gave spanish spanish speaking newspaper reporter fact maybe 2 major baseball writers speak spanish , despite fact spanish one \( \) easiest languages learn , easy author mccarthy learned spanish age 50 order research book , pretty horses yet , mlb organizations employ spanish speaking personel , one exceptions oakland 's another point nearly 90 latin american players african blood yet , report 'd never really felt black playing ball us ironically enough , early presence latin american baseball players major leagues support idea baseball integrated arrival jackie robinson , many light black brown , latin americans incorporated baseball know cure disease images , believed healing sandra vigil power words stories vigil esca com end world
cs arizona edu \( david k \) subject braves giants organization u arizona cs dept , tucson lines 14 article news duke edu fls keynes econ duke edu \( forrest smith \) writes cox 've protested game second time garbage got thrown outfielders also protested game point ron gant assessed second strike ninth , grounds \( cox \) field time called protests would denied , course umpire 's judgement determines garbage thing , although think game called \( 's personal opinion n't matter \) time ump says , second argument baseless dave
cs arizona edu \( david k \) subject braves giants organization u arizona cs dept , tucson lines 13 situation giants' bleachers case point need commissioner true , main thing e needs suspend bobby cox cannot allow team come ump braves usually rip umps , case , players dead wrong cox go 5 games ever game happened , 'd ejected every player came cox gant would spared , cox would gone ensuing argument dave
soda berkeley edu \( david g \) subject hbp \? bb \? big cat \? organization organization \? cares \? gotta say go bears ! lines 14 distribution na lynx unm edu 36s odin corp sgi com nntp posting host soda berkeley edu reply kubey sgi com 's message mon , 19 apr 1993 23 27 29 gmt article 36s odin corp sgi com kubey sgi com \( ken kubey \) writes suppose foul ball machine \( like brett butler \) pretty valuable , 'd rather watch \( root \) lower obp guys actually hit ball 'd rather watch \( root \) team scores lots runs wins games course , i'm rooting rockies andres anyway 's irrational also root frank thomas \) david
mjones watson ibm com \( mike jones \) subject jack morris reply mjones donald aix kingston ibm com disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host fenway aix kingston ibm com organization ibm aix esa development , kingston ny lines 97 maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) writes 1993apr19 cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) writes article 1993apr19 024222 11181 newshub ariel yorku ca cs902043 ariel yorku ca \( shawn luddington \) writes hey valentine , n't see boston world series rings fingers yah \? damn , morris three probably hall fame future certainly n't earn last one many games blow world series \? ones started \? certainly earn ! valuable member blue jay team particularly world series season , probably valuable , say , putting olerud pitch , yeah , valuable getting postseason , sucked dirty canal water straw jays spite morris much therefore , would say toronto easily made best signing oh , yes definitely therefore morris better clemens definition better refers measurement scale nothing winning ws rings umm , roger \? return us halcyon days postings ago , poster valentine replying used ws rings measure better concept called context , really become familiar someday facts morris shown us takes play ws winning club clemens n't unless clemens n't gone lou gorman 's office large caliber handgun refused come 'd traded jays , i'm complete loss possible meaning go clemens done past claim better morris want facts morris shown us win clemens n't earth mean \? careers , clemens 68 games 's started , morris 58 per year , clemens averaged nearly 17 wins , morris 15 would grant proposition preventing team scoring increases chances winning game \? , consider clemens allows 2 8 runs 9 innings pitched morris allows nearly run per nine innings fact , jack morris never career era single year good career era forget , obviously mystical significance missing grounder 1986 morris sox , would routine , right \? whether clemens better standard measurement totally meaningless object game compile high figures statistics chosen feel important object game contribute ws victories patiently explained many , many times either stupid stubborn grasp speaking stupid , patiently \( patiently \) explained many times greatness players based accomplishments teams makes much sense claiming attractive paint job race continued failure understand even intelligently reply arguments presented leads conclusion must spent many games goal without mask n't give shit boston alomar , olerud , henke , ward toronto rivera , jack clark , jeff reardon , things would looked little different last fall give credit credit due praise morris makes sick yes dog would caught rabbit forget n't happen open eyes , , look see really happening forget morris n't 21 era 4 morris pitched , last year , jays stop crying get life one crying jays , team certainly deserved win least al east performed well two short series world series , congratulate red sox fan , hope keep morris happy picked stewart , traded darrin jackson see , unless believe mystical link morris offense , hardly help believe man credited many wins last year got lucky luck runs , like 1982 pitched 50 odd innings 1992 , gave exactly one earned run 1992 , went 17 16 seriously , roger , 'd really like hear explanation difference 1982 morris 1992 morris one better pitcher , \? morris somehow learn win ten years \? , go 18 12 1991 minnesota era half run lower 1992 \? mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com n't humble , 're great
mjones watson ibm com \( mike jones \) subject jack morris reply mjones donald aix kingston ibm com disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host fenway aix kingston ibm com organization ibm aix esa development , kingston ny lines 57 maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) writes sure depends definition use better based could mine based really happened well , actually , based really happened based fantasy happened 's ok , understand hockey background stats like plus minus make rbi look good viola 's fault boston offense \? morris blue jays strong offense \? n't tell morris magical ability cause offensive players score runs perfect example problem isolating viola 's contribution rest team 's efforts say sure team would done without viola compare cannot know team would done without viola analysis fallacious ok , answer , 's question i'm sure fair number us answer please answer yes , roger pitcher cause offensive players team score runs \? al , please anyone else following along , well known fact team 's win loss record closely related number runs team scores number team allows 's definite , hard fast function , definitely correlation fact , rule thumb , teams b score x runs team allows runs , every 10 runs fewer team b allows , win another game , instance , look 1991 toronto blue jays , find scored 780 runs allowed 682 , morris allowed 114 things equal , frank viola , 3 44 era replaced jack morris 240 2 innings morris threw \( plausible , since viola threw 238 boston \) , red jays would allowed 15 fewer runs , enough 1 2 wins , n't take account viola pitched half innings fenway , harder park pitch \( particularly \) skydome , um , roger unless really believe pitcher somehow affect number runs team scores , could enlighten us fallacy analysis \? clearly , would claim viola would necessarily put 3 44 jay last year , claim look actual performances evaluate viola 's better morris' sense morris performed viola , team would better takes open mind really truly understand happening real world guys true , open brain falls mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com computer n't open exit hatch moment shall zap straight major data banks large ax got \? zaphod
mjones watson ibm com \( mike jones \) subject far , good \( red sox \) reply mjones donald aix kingston ibm com disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host fenway aix kingston ibm com organization ibm aix esa development , kingston ny lines 68 uhura cc rochester edu \( wizard \) writes posted two new postings net , since discovered use , times received predicting red sox high third al east id like hear people dont think sox high third year observations well , bit less exuberant tone substance predictions , responses would probably bit measured may 1 roger frank vintage form , sox clemens always form , viola n't really performing beyond might reasonably expected know sox responding , al , , \( likely suspect \) new hitting coach mike \? certainly likely give credit mo 's hot start clemens viola 2 greenwell hitting injuries optimistic scenario , unreasonably n't shown much power yet , though 3 dawson providing leadership hitting need tell dawson providing leadership \? perhaps 's calderon \? perhaps 's clemens viola \? maybe finally showing people skills supposed hired maybe 's myth dawson hitting reasonably well , well greenwell , vaughn , cooper , fletcher 4 russell finishing well three games n't look one , say , july \? 5 fletcher hitting well leadoff hitter bit better could reasonably expected n't forget zupcic looked like wade boggs lite 75 ab 's last year beware small sample sizes still , fletcher hits well last year 'd great improvement sox leadoff hitter last year aware career numbers seem indicate puts good numbers long n't make 300 ab year 6 cooper hitting well \( think 'll better boggs field good plate \) ummm sorry , buy field part , think 'll better plate 1992 boggs , general cooper , 'll pretty good hitter , could n't carry boggs' little luck , could fourth fifth best 3b al \( martinez , boggs , ventura , palmer better \) sox pitch like last year \( better staff , \) hit like far , run away thee division since think hitting pitching may challenge running away division , think win 500 least third second first see , make quick left turn 500 plausible , third unlikely , phrases like could run away division likely get visit men white coats 's really clear staff better last year russell well , darwin n't go dl , hesketh n't pitch barely well enough avoid losing spot rotation , could better hand , hesketh pitches miserably 're stupid move pen bring conroy somebody , continues pitch keep giving innings becasue 's lefty , russell explodes could pretty bad mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com god comedian playing audience afraid laugh mark twain
columbia dsu edu \( michael kessler \) subject box scores lines 8 organization dakota state university lines 8 wondering anyone types box scores day college able get till weekend would thankful someone could p mail twins box scores every often also looking twins 93 schedule columbia dsu edu
lynch hpcc01 corp hp com \( howard lynch \) subject phillies sign mark davis organization hp corporate notes server lines 8 heard rumors la , cin , hou , sd interested mark davis , n't surprise team give something cash actually get lynch mob ps anyone else draft guy \? really got loud cry ever give guy \)
boell hpcc01 corp hp com \( donald p boell \) subject rockies spoon feed game mets organization hp corporate notes server lines 8 , bichette look totally lost outfield \? misplayed martinez fly double expos , misplayed alou 's single triple \( alou tagged 3rd sliding bag \) another 3 run triple add wonderful batting average one heck player ! boell
boell hpcc01 corp hp com \( donald p boell \) subject rockies 2 5 , two errors , 6 walks organization hp corporate notes server lines 36 name pos ab h 2b 3b hr rbi rs sb e avg boston 12 7 2 6 583 galarraga 1b 28 13 3 1 9 2 464 3b 5 2 1 400 cole cf 24 9 1 2 8 2 375 e young 2b 28 9 1 1 1 5 10 5 3 321 hayes 3b 25 7 1 2 5 2 1 2 280 murphy 4 1 1 250 bichette rf 21 5 1 5 3 1 238 clark lf 24 5 2 2 1 208 c 25 5 1 1 3 2 200 ss 6 1 1 167 ss 18 1 2 1 4 g young 1 1 000 pitchers p 12 000 totals 233 65 9 3 5 34 37 9 11 279 name l r ip h r er k bb era w l wayne l 2 7 3 0 0 3 2 0 00 0 0 0 l 5 4 3 1 1 6 1 80 0 0 0 smith r 12 3 15 3 3 2 3 2 19 1 1 0 ashby r 5 6 2 2 3 5 3 60 0 0 0 r 12 15 6 6 5 8 4 50 1 1 0 r 5 7 7 3 3 7 3 4 76 0 0 0 blair r 5 3 7 5 3 2 3 5 06 0 0 0 henry l 6 9 6 5 4 1 7 50 0 1 0 l 3 7 6 5 3 4 15 00 0 1 0 reed r 2 7 7 7 7 1 3 23 63 0 0 0 holmes r 1 3 6 10 9 1 4 60 75 0 1 0 totals 61 86 51 44 32 42 6 49 2 5 0
gt0523e prism gatech edu \( michael andre mule \) subject torre worst manager \? distribution usa organization georgia institute technology lines 19 article 93095 hydra gatech edu gt7469a prism gatech edu \( brian r landmann \) writes later , ninth inning bases loaded two outs puts lankford , 300 hitter power pinch runner uses luis alicea , 250 hitter power pinch hitter hell thinking n't alicea get hit , though \? see y'all ballyard go braves chop chop michael mule' michael andre mule georgia institute technology , atlanta georgia , 30332 uucp ! decvax , hplabs , ncar , purdue , rutgers ! gatech ! prism ! gt0523e internet gt0523e prism gatech edu
kkerr mk \( kevin kerr \) subject wfan lines 41 nntp posting host kerr dseg ti com organization engineering automation article news udel edu philly ravel udel edu \( robert c hite \) writes philly ravel udel edu \( robert c hite \) subject wfan date thu , 15 apr 1993 17 19 09 gmt article 1993apr15 3551 virginia edu jja2h virginia edu \( \) writes one listen wfan \? know talking , sports radio new york clear night signal reaches east coast particular , want know len berman mike lupica 's show go school virginia ca n't listen day wondering fan okay sports radio station , n't come close ultimate sports radio , 610 wip philadelphia signal might powerful , stations new york feel obligated everyone else 's airwaves bunch hoodlum mets fans complaining 24 hours day wip took two best sports jockeys , jody macdonald steve fredericks 610 wip sports talk 5 30 till midnight , check anytime within hours philadelphia i'm mistaken , wip highest sports talk ratings nation \? i'm dallas , alot nerve saying wfan bunch hoodlum mets fans football season , local cowboy station wip several times broadcasts never heard bigger bunch low intellect , bed wetting , obnoxious , woofing , cranial deformed , assholes entire life ! iq average eagles fan must 10 15 range best , known big \( please flames \) let 's see works bob \) kevin p kerr kkerr dseg ti com b r member since '92 go yankees ! ! ! go dolphins ! ! ! cyberspace , electric wind
subject phils , nl east weak csc2imd cabell vcu edu \( ian derby \) expires tue , 27 apr 1993 04 00 00 gmt organization virginia commonwealth university lines 13 's true live richmond , home aaa richmond braves , guy ryan klesko hit 17 hr 's home last year n't sound like whole lot , way diamond built , home runs rarity fact , ron gant , brian hunter david justice proved could hit richmond sent majors , never came back hit richmond , hit anywhere far , beating \( phillies \) 9 0 first game , best team aaa history rather many expectations guess
rpi edu \( michael \) subject fenway gif nntp posting host rpi edu reply rpi edu organization rensselaer polytechnic institute , troy , ny lines 12 article umassd edu , acsddc smucs1 umassd edu writes wondering anyone kind fenway park gif would appreciate someone could send one thanks advance dan ! yankee stadium gifs well , please thanx advance , mike
dfl math wayne edu \( david lane \) subject rbi 's \( notes jays indians \) organization wayne state university math department , detroit distribution na lines 23 article 1993apr15 news acns nwu edu edo casbah acns nwu edu \( edward \) writes , rbi worthless stat course , stolen bases sometimes runners front player would otherwise run course pitchers pitch differently different people different bases , batting average , slugging obp , hmmm guess homers would count , either point \? rbi might perfect stat nothing stat \( lack \) tell clutch hitters maybe stat tell , either , people know ! ! ! 8 \) would want use rbi \? rbi attempt measure combination clutch hitting power hitting believe clutch hitting , look guy hit risp want see good slugger , look slugging average terms evaluating players , rbi totals better nothing use many better stats \? david lane dfl math wayne edu go tigers , lions , pistons , red wings ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
tkevans eplrx7 es dupont com \( tim evans \) subject mcrae \( torre worst manager \? \) reply tkevans eplrx7 es dupont com organization dupont engineering physics laboratory x newsreader nn version 6 4 19 lines 15 scott mccall com \( scott davis \) writes kc \( \? \) news report said mcrae really batting coach manager reason took job whatever reason , royals need new manager late jesse jackson picket stadium \? tim evans e du pont de co tkevans eplrx7 es dupont com experimental station \( 302 \) 695 p box a1 wilmington , delaware
tkevans eplrx7 es dupont com \( tim evans \) subject royals reply tkevans eplrx7 es dupont com organization dupont engineering physics laboratory x newsreader nn version 6 4 19 lines 17 randall informix com \( randall rhea \) writes royals darkness void time play , shame descends upon land like cold front canada humiliation lived shall ever live utterly completely doomed , guess 're ok must old enough remember 's kc ! tim evans e du pont de co tkevans eplrx7 es dupont com experimental station \( 302 \) 695 p box a1 wilmington , delaware
subject al stats michael mcguire michael mcguire canrem com reply michael mcguire michael mcguire canrem com distribution rec organization canada remote systems lines 11 looking source american league baseball stats individual players format printed newspapers , ie want provide list players get back nice printed reports 35 week anyone know statistics availability idea cost \? canada remote systems toronto , ontario 416 629 7000 629 7044
jfc athena mit edu \( john f carr \) subject proposed catcher sub rule organization massachusetts institute technology lines 11 nntp posting host achates mit edu red sox usually 2 catchers n't think backup , used use randy backup catcher , well middle infielder outfielder n't need good 3rd catcher , competent one , afford lose little catching ability pick player use elsewhere field john carr \( jfc athena mit edu \)
organization university notre dame office univ computing rvesterm vma cc nd edu subject millitello update distribution usa 1993apr14 alleg edu lines 10 article 1993apr14 alleg edu , yankee org \( sam millitello \) says uhhhh think spelled name correctly sam millitello uhhhh three l 's bob vesterman
organization university notre dame office univ computing rvesterm vma cc nd edu subject yankees win home opener distribution usa lines 7 article 1993apr14 alleg edu , yankee org \( sam millitello \) says i'm telling , sam , three l 's call mom ask bob vesterman
magnus acs ohio state edu \( michael \) subject phillies sweep reds awful reds report 4 14 nntp posting host bottom magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 63 article usenet ucs indiana edu rstimets silver ucs indiana edu \( robert stimets \) writes actually , i'm sure philly ahead 2 7 bottom eighth going post box score since playing criminally bad , pub turn game 's 's cincinnati seven hits , singles , end eighth makes six games exactly one extra base hit cincinnati 0 5 runners scoring position team going completely without power , absolutely hit clutch situations cincinnati starter tom browning pitched 4 1 innings , giving 5 runs 10 h striking 5 surely loser tonight reds starters , supposedly solid , one game year \( course , reds two \) clean batter sabo went 0 4 besides yesterday 's homer , 's sucked plate dibble may actually return friday may mean anything since may find save situation speaking , reds ha exactly one lead week one half innings tuesday manager tony perez says reds swinging bat well right good call , well , 's big difference swinging bat well reds plate ! ! ! ! ! reds fan verge nervous breakdown mike prognosis kevin mitchell 2 3 days' matter day read \? \? \? gary burbank 've told 'll tell strong survive weak disappear intend disappear jimmy magnus acs ohio state edu , rstimets
cleveland freenet edu \( richard l \) subject wfan organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 92 nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu hope comes somewhat unbiased wfan wip \( go school philadelphia , listen stations consistant basis \) fan mike lupica 10 noon , person get big name guests interviews , local importance dave fred show , bob costas magic johnson opinions two stations competing talent morning show opinion , think imus much better bruno , , , even though would feel different better crew people work , wip tries copy imus make sports theme terms sports , imus lacks airwaves , humor politics show 10 12 noon think chuck lupica equal abilities host radio show , think chuck advantage lupica terms dealing caller asking local team going draft sixth round lupica hosts fan get better interview guests , heard pd wip say interested interviews celebrities unless major story would consider even two different styles host 12 noon 2 pm point , would give big advantage jody mcdonald len berman lenny couple weeks think jm ability homer mentality philadelphia fan base evident \( philadelphia spelling \) play cowboys jm huge dallas fan else people call predict 93 0 score without hosts \( wip morning \) agree jm great fan weekend overnight miss hearing current crop rotating hosts feel jm best host either station good margin ny ca n't get wip , jm fill weekends sometimes 2pm time jm goes francesa \( loops \) become divided loyalties mike dog entertaining , often go hour without calls even 10 20 minutes without talking sports get great guests basis show , like 10 12 debate another plus appearances mike chris imus morning , often hilarious 4 pm 7 pm go fredericks like mike ca n't stomach steve fredericks know sf came philly originally , fan , ny homer much philly homer n't listen wip much 4 pm unless game night , see later reason give advantage fan 7 pm midnight wip 8 man makes eli calls time seem like novice charges racism , g cobb man grating nerves listen minutes go nuts \( know biased , listen show \) fan , usually game , , rangers , mets jets , st john 's basketball game west coast , usually rose course think dead air would better g cobb wip , wip air flyers games season \( sports station , lose wysp \( home howard stern phil \) \) summer , talk wip overall , would give advantage wfan , exception 10 12 , 2 4 even , 12 2 wip advantage rich 've read hat , see movie imus morning blurb \? 're blurb ! seinfeld
cleveland freenet edu \( richard l \) subject question candlestick organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 12 nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu tickets tb giants wondering anybody familiar stadium could tell section 15 lower level located please e mail response , thanks , rich 've read hat , see movie imus morning blurb \? 're blurb ! seinfeld
marc yogi austin ibm com \( marc j stephenson \) subject astros real \? organization ibm , austin lines 29 article 1993apr15 ccsvax sfasu edu z ccsvax sfasu edu writes thinks astros going places \? \? \? they're currently first place they're 5 4 , 5 1 road ! agree , lumberjack \( except 're 2nd \) ! going places san diego , los angeles , san francisco , cincinnati , denver , atlanta , miami , philadelphia , new york , montreal , pittsburgh , chicago , st louis points \) , they're 0 3 home ! i'm used overly enthusiastic houston fan really n't discourage , hang , lumberjack ! \( , get ahold shift key , ya \? \) apparently new owner \( \( sp \? \) \) n't particularly like excuses item paper \( austin american statesman read , somewhere else first \) said would n't take injuries excuse losing possibility accounted uh , oh n't want owner 'll keep everybody edge 'd never gotten feeling , knows \? anybody houston area feel owner going \? marc stephenson ibm aws \( advanced workstations systems austin , tx \) disclaimer content posting independent official ibm position internet marc austin ibm com vnet marc ibm l 678 3189
srgenprp sr hp com \( craig stelter \) subject defensive averages 1988 1992 , third base organization hp sonoma county \( srsd mwtd mid \) x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 2 lines 37 dale stephenson \( steph cs uiuc edu \) wrote cs uiuc edu steph cs uiuc edu \( dale stephenson \) writes compiled last five defensive average reports , career das individual players reports stats courtesy sherri nichols players listed descending order comments , players deleted third basemen leius , scott 653 680 0 672 looks good bad 's moving short pagliarulo , mike 631 575 744 0 649 interesting line 1988 figure slightly average 1990 pathetic , 1991 next best year anybody part may mobility 1988 yankees 1990 padres , appear rotten infield 1991 twins , judging leius gaetti , metrodome may good place play third gaetti , gary 616 638 655 632 0 637 apologies n't know i'm talking \) , twins fan , like think good players park sure remember completely , think gaetti played twins '87 world series , '88 \( note 's lowest 4 \) believe next 3 \( least last two \) played angels lots factors make player hate many use dome may ideal , nice comfortably enjoy baseball football even 's snowing raining craig i'm sure company work opinions
kingoz camelot bradley edu \( orin roth \) subject phils , nl east weak nntp posting host camelot bradley edu organization bradley university lines 34 1993apr15 3371 guvax acc georgetown edu apanjabi guvax acc georgetown edu writes love people blaming phillies success weak division n't look record teams division \( read inter divisional play \) , 'll see east really kicking shit west know early , go atlanta strong 188 ba , cincinnati 2 7 coming sweep veteran 's stadium philadelphia , houston swept 's first three games phillies , western division friends , shows three best teams division may strong think ! ! may posting way early eating words mid season c'mon , phillies n't proved anything yet atlanta similar phils 2 years ago sucked started good year , n't get respect actually division \( \) phils least good year , good 2 weeks , wo n't get respect either btw , atlanta 's 188 ba actually compliment good braves really record 6 3 imagine phils record batting 188 \? atlanta 's hitting improve dramatically , i'm braves fan defending good team orin bradley u phils way '93 braves hit like aaa club reds need marge bob i'm really jester disguise !
joec hilbert cyprs rain com \( joe cipale \) subject red sox lead 8 0 2 ! ! ! ! ! ! organization cypress semi , beaverton lines 46 article ulowell ulowell edu stwombly cs ulowell edu \( steve twombly \) writes boston red sox lead kc royals 8 0 2 innings sox team al east 4 days go jump lake non believers ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! steve read net last days , continually amazed pronouncements baseball prowess many individuals especially comes saying bosox n't prayer long time red sox fan , simply say impossible dream year 1967 short memories short lives , red sox fan continually subject abuse criticism follow 'the hot statement supported based increased number net true fan team , team , follow team good years well lean years , rewarded time right yeah , let roller go legs `86 cares clemens told cooley go piss rope promptly earned quick shower fact , one best teams league years fans supported appears lean times , number come ! let play see happens come september red sox may good , certainly bad , either chance win world series , , remember mets \? would given chance even make far , let alone beat baltimore let 's face , baseball wonderful game far unpredictable football basketball , one never say absolute outcome course 162 games joec cyprs rain com warning elvis hazardous joec ursula ee pdx edu health sure wo n't help reputation bike , therefore ! go red sox ! go celtics ! go ! go !
hbrooks uiatma atmos uiuc edu \( harold brooks \) subject rbi , risp , slg organization bill 's safety cab record bar , , ok lines 49 last several months , threads rbis related topics gotten thinking well predict player 's rbis using information overall performance number runners scoring position \( risp \) bats model , bill james calculated predicted rbis rbi 235 \( total bases \) home runs completely ignores context , could , since context unknown thought 'd take idea starting point look good fit data get comparing \( rbi home runs \) slg risp 've started team data , using data elias 's 've picked years \) could afford b \) could stomach thought increasing elias 's profits gave years 1984 1986 , 1988 , 1990 \( n't team rbis '87 could add year \) run simple least squares fit data get \( rbi home runs \) 0 81 slg risp correlation 0 86 , significant ridiculously high level , feel like fit good team level 've started move player level looked 4 players \( clark , ozzie smith , joe carter , mattingly \) hope add quite copious free time year n't badly , except equation low hr hitter \( smith \) , may fault model could ozzie results rbi hr years actual predicted carter \( 84 88 , 90 \) 400 402 6 clark \( 87 , 88 , 90 , 92 \) 269 269 6 \( 84 88 , 90 \) 471 460 8 smith \( 84 88 , 90 \) 317 280 6 think make case \( hope make stronger \) rbis predicted simply knowing player overall many men scoring position comes later , harold harold brooks hbrooks uiatma atmos uiuc edu national severe storms laboratory \( norman , ok \) used work brewery , , n't drink job p dal 's view florida win nl east '93
philly ravel udel edu \( robert c hite \) subject dave kingman hall fame keywords hall fame , winfield , kingman , murray , joe lundy , \) nntp posting host ravel udel edu organization university delaware distribution na lines 15 article netcom com mss netcom com \( mark singer \) writes i'm kingman fan thought 'd point 's player history five three hr games joe carter four eddie murray three mccovey gehrig also three ruth , mays , foxx dawson two n't mike schmidt also least three times \? remember twice wrigley field alone day kong 23 22 shootout , four one day april '76 \( month set april record 11 hr 's anybody remember \? \( kid \)
awe mit edu \( ari epstein \) subject jewish baseball players \? organization mit lines 4 distribution world nntp posting host mit edu think add former 's first baseman mike epstein \( relation \) list ari
jtchern ocf berkeley edu \( joseph hernandez \) subject mlb standings scores fri , apr 16th , 1993 organization jtc enterprises sports division \( major league baseball dept \) lines 72 distribution world nntp posting host monsoon berkeley edu keywords mlb , 04 16 mlb standings scores friday , april 16th , 1993 \( including yesterday 's games \) national west lost pct gb last 10 streak home road san francisco giants 06 04 600 6 4 1 03 01 03 03 houston astros 05 04 556 0 5 5 4 lost 1 00 03 05 01 atlanta braves 06 05 545 0 5 5 5 lost 2 03 03 03 02 colorado rockies 03 05 375 2 0 3 5 1 03 03 00 02 los angeles dodgers 03 07 300 3 0 3 7 lost 4 00 03 03 04 san diego padres 02 07 222 3 5 2 7 lost 4 00 04 02 03 cincinnati reds 02 07 222 3 5 2 7 lost 3 01 02 01 05 national east philadelphia phillies 08 01 889 8 1 5 05 01 03 00 pittsburgh pirates 07 02 778 1 0 7 2 4 03 02 04 00 st louis cardinals 07 02 778 1 0 7 2 3 04 02 03 00 new york mets 04 04 500 3 5 4 4 lost 1 02 03 02 01 chicago cubs 04 05 444 4 0 4 5 1 01 02 03 03 montreal expos 04 05 444 4 0 4 5 1 01 02 03 03 florida marlins 03 06 333 5 0 3 6 1 02 04 01 02 american west lost pct gb last 10 streak home road texas rangers 06 02 750 6 2 lost 1 04 02 02 00 california angels 05 02 714 0 5 5 2 3 03 02 02 00 chicago white sox 04 04 500 2 0 4 4 1 02 03 02 01 minnesota twins 04 04 500 2 0 4 4 lost 1 01 02 03 02 oakland athletics 04 04 500 2 0 4 4 lost 2 04 02 00 02 seattle mariners 04 04 500 2 0 4 4 lost 1 03 02 01 02 kansas city royals 02 07 222 4 5 2 7 1 01 05 01 02 american east boston red sox 07 02 778 7 2 3 03 00 04 02 toronto blue jays 05 03 625 1 5 5 3 1 04 02 01 01 new york yankees 05 04 556 2 0 5 4 lost 1 02 01 03 03 detroit tigers 04 04 500 2 5 4 4 2 02 00 02 04 cleveland indians 03 06 333 4 0 3 6 lost 3 02 01 01 05 milwaukee brewers 02 05 286 4 0 2 5 lost 4 00 02 02 03 baltimore orioles 02 06 222 4 5 2 6 1 00 02 02 04 yesterday's scores \( idle teams listed alphabetical order \) national league american league houston astros 1 seattle mariners 1 montreal expos 2 toronto blue jays 3 new york mets 3 oakland athletics 2 colorado rockies 5 detroit tigers 3 pittsburgh pirates 5 kansas city royals 5 san diego padres 4 \( 13 \) new york yankees 4 st louis cardinals 4 cleveland indians 3 los angeles dodgers 2 boston red sox 4 \( 13 \) atlanta braves 1 california angels ppd san francisco giants 6 milwaukee brewers rain chicago cubs idle baltimore orioles idle cincinnati reds idle chicago white sox idle florida marlins idle minnesota twins idle philadelphia texas rangers idle joseph hernandez rams lakers jtchern ocf berkeley edu kings dodgers raiders jtcent soda berkeley edu angels clippers
unl edu \( gary \) subject cards sweep la , mets lose , life good ! organization university nebraska lincoln lines 28 distribution world nntp posting host unlinfo unl edu keywords cardinals lines favorite team sweeping dodgers \( one least favorite \) la \( sweet ! \) also mets \( least favorite team \) loss rockies made great day great start weekend cardinals espn tonight big lee smith great start cardinals seem hitting clutch even though games lots hits many runs hopefully coaches stress situational hitting spring training , runners lower year \( probably due high numbers jose lankford zeile 's year \) n't know fuss media fans r b forget right behind standings give wild thing week two starts blowing games 'll see first believe cardinal pitching staff complete staff make difference side note , years ago \( 5 6 \) , comment made baseball player manager dodger defense asked hit ball dodgers replied fair remember said section sports illustrated would like know said issue go redbirds ! ! gary
ching fledgling wpi edu \( jay \) subject tiger stadium gif \? organization worcester polytechnic institute lines 9 distribution world nntp posting host fledgling wpi edu originator ching fledgling wpi edu hate rude , screw seating chart , post stadium instead logistician reigns supreme ! ! ! go blue ! ! ! go tigers ! ! ! go pistons ! ! ! go lions ! ! ! go red wings ! ! ! ching wpi wpi edu
fester island com \( mike fester \) subject notes jays vs indians series organization usr local rn organization distribution na lines 38 article 1993apr13 midway uchicago edu thf2 midway uchicago edu writes article netcom com rudy netcom com \( rudy wade \) writes article 1993apr13 195301 csd newshost stanford edu nlu xenon stanford edu \( nelson lu \) writes guess line ba obp slg ab h 2b 3b hr bb x 310 405 427 571 177 27 8 8 87 312 354 455 657 205 32 1 20 35 walks give away obp 's , general , somewhat valuable slugging , alomar 's edge obp quite bit larger baerga 's edge slugging i'm sdcn , 's valuable 28 hits w 5 doubles , 12 hrs 7 triples 52 bbs \? \( let 's forget 39 extra sbs many cs \? \) alomar 9 cs baerga 2 n't forget 59 outs baerga \( balances cs , one sacrifice alomar \) replacement level second baseman could 17 hits , 5 walks , couple additional outs baerga triple little different home run 're talking exchanging almost 60 walks six seven home runs four doubles would say almost 60 walks valuable also , alomar got far greater boost home park baerga six seven home runs \? hmm , wanted pick second baseman play toronto , 'd take alomar anywhere else , 'd probably take baerga mike disclaimer opiini h h damn ! h h q w q wq wq ! x \? exit x q c \? quitbye ctrlaltdel q q logout save quit ! quit zz zzzzzz vi man vi l c e x \? help helpquit ! ! man help c c e ! help exit \? quit \? q ctrlshftdel hey , stop l1a
thf2 kimbark uchicago edu \( ted frank \) subject mlb standings scores fri , apr 16th , 1993 keywords mlb , 04 16 reply thf2 midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 23 article agate berkeley edu jtchern ocf berkeley edu \( joseph hernandez \) writes houston astros 1 seattle mariners 1 montreal expos 2 toronto blue jays 3 new york mets 3 oakland athletics 2 colorado rockies 5 detroit tigers 3 pittsburgh pirates 5 kansas city royals 5 san diego padres 4 \( 13 \) new york yankees 4 st louis cardinals 4 cleveland indians 3 los angeles dodgers 2 boston red sox 4 \( 13 \) atlanta braves 1 california angels ppd san francisco giants 6 milwaukee brewers rain leads believe 's really year , 've rash high scoring games bet one day 's worth games pulled everything back close average interesting , day , three games ten runs scored , yesterday game nine ted frank thf2 kimbark uchicago edu i'm sorry , card says moops u c law school standard disclaimers
mss netcom com \( mark singer \) subject young catchers keywords solid ! good organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 64 article aludra usc edu sheehan aludra usc edu \( joseph sheehan \) writes points made lopez v berryhill olson made others , realizing lopez must second coming frank thomas , praised wisdom supporters nope 're baseball management , possible short sighted collection people nation believe goes , mark \? think frank thomas needed three months aaa 1990 \? see \? essentially everyone comparing lopez one best players game i'm really looking forward seeing ca n't miss superstar thomas , remember advocate brought 1990 even though 21 22 \( ca n't remember \) sox first \? calderon \? martinez \? \? spot talent sure , say go convinced lopez anywhere near talented thomas aa season 1989 , convinced olson berryhill nearly bad martinez btw , n't think thomas hurt three months cal eldred n't really better ricky bones last year \? well , ca n't compare guy one best game , let 's compare decision one , right \? cal eldred 24 came , full season aaa longer minor league career frankly , n't know n't make club 1992 bones year younger lousy prior history , watching makes think missed career big league pitcher one repeat one laughed louder sheffield trade \( though guess future \) \( take back may laughed louder \) 're mostly polite make defensible , flawed cases wit , past , admitted wrong qualify r b 'll make sdcn , yet \) aw , gee , thanks guy except missed part sdcn 's admit 're wrong beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
jbrown stein u washington edu \( jeffery brown \) subject early bbddd returns \? organization university washington , seattle lines 17 nntp posting host stein u washington edu article 1993apr16 news cs brandeis edu st902415 pip cc brandeis edu writes curious anyone started standout early season bb ddd year jack morris served griffey younger first bat year went 394 feet , remember right \( 'll check home \) think 's longest far first stand \( five games \) weak showing , despite promising candidates ben mcdonald , rich , rest mariner bullpen making appearances anyone tape measure value omar vizquel 's grand slam skydome \? jeff brown big brown bag astronomy dept jbrown u washington edu u washington jbrown phys washington edu
ching fledgling wpi edu \( jay \) subject tigers organization worcester polytechnic institute lines 17 distribution world nntp posting host fledgling wpi edu originator ching fledgling wpi edu say g g e r ! ! ! ! ! ! logistician reigns supreme ! ! ! go blue ! ! ! go tigers ! ! ! go pistons ! ! ! go lions ! ! ! go red wings ! ! ! ching wpi wpi edu
orion yorku ca subject notes jays vs indians series lines 23 organization york university distribution na article ncoast org , ncoast org \( steven goldman \) writes start year 's star game al \? probably alomar put 's great player helps recognition 's , plus play city likely pour votes like alomar 'd like differ opinion city likely pour votes attended many games last year know great number attendees fill ballots , left , beer soaked torn floor stands toronto gets less votes city star game unfortunately , one time thing 've attended games last four seasons , happened every time attitude star ballots really
js1 isis msstate edu \( jiann ming su \) subject bonilla nntp posting host isis msstate edu organization mississippi state university distribution usa lines 2 bobby bonilla supposedly use word got mad author clubhouse banned baseball year like schott \?
dtate pitt edu \( david tate \) subject torre worst manager \? organization department industrial engineering lines 19 dak988s vma smsu edu said hal mcrae worst manager baseball 've never seen guy waste talent like one best raw talent staffs league , 's still finding way lose 'll surprised makes next 2 weeks , unless drastic improvement made i'm confused hal mcrae 's fault ca n't win team whose best offensive player phil hiatt \? mean , let 's real kansas city get outstanding years entire staff end near 500 less offense team baseball , even count expansion teams david tate \( dtate pitt edu \) greetings , sir , bat quick member iie , orsa , tims , sabr hands soft , eye discerning denver call slugger \? big catullus galarraga compare mattingly ! \?
drw3l delmarva evsc virginia edu \( david robert walker \) subject braves pitching updatedir organization university virginia lines 34 article 8994 blue cis pitt edu traven pitt edu \( neal traven \) writes one chapters palmer thorn 's titled 44 baseball , ' implying fielding 6 determine \? beats 's long , long time since read \( opinion \) stupidest thing hidden game argument 1 \) defense , runs allowed , 50 game 2 \) unearned runs amount 12 runs allowed earned runs , 88 3 \) since unearned runs result fielding , pitching , earned runs product pitching , fielding , fielding 12 defense pitching 88 defense 4 \) 1 , pitching 44 game , fielding 6 pete usually sharper feel fielding 25 33 defense range call 30 70 fielding pitching one also separate offense batting baserunning , split probably somewhere around 49 5 0 5 'd give baserunning little credit , maybe 45 5 , even 40 10 give team roberto alomar team john oleruds identical batting stats \( would n't unreasonable \) , even n't let roberto steal single base , 'll score lot oleruds going first third often \( offense , gordon \) clay
boell hpcc01 corp hp com \( donald p boell \) subject best homeruns organization hp corporate notes server lines 5 'd say impressive hrs 've ever see came dave kingman infamous moon drives boell
schaefer owlnet rice edu \( andrew james schaefer \) subject best keywords sportswriters organization rice university lines 31 article news cso uiuc edu rkoffler ux4 cso uiuc edu \( bighelmet \) writes csc2imd cabell vcu edu \( ian derby \) writes since someone brought sports radio , howabout sportswriting \? \? \? happen big fan jayson stark baseball writer philadelphia inquirer every tuesday writes week review column writes unusual situations occured week unusual stats section called week stupid lines mets ralph kiner every year contest stands last guy get hit also writes baseball america column sort highlights week review , check column sometime might make laugh rob n't stark idiot writes baseball america \? twice month writes thunk article really piece every time would thought buddy would home runs colorado rockies , babe ruth , omar vizquel nolan ryan combined ! 's idiot , 's guy live day day rkoffler ux4 cso uiuc edu dream tomorrow andrew
informix com \( barry \) subject jewish baseball players \? summary names organization informix software , inc lines 9 article 15apr93 14691229 0062 lafibm lafayette edu vb30 lafibm lafayette edu \( vb30 \) writes wondering friend talking day , \( reason \) trying come names jewish maybe john lowenstein lowenstein jewish however , long list including hank greenberg , moe berg , rod carew \( convert \) , sherry brothers , art , ron blomberg barry
gvl unisys com \( ed \) subject vs pirates summary good baseball keywords mlb , 04 16 organization unisys defense systems , great valley labs , , pa lines 9 nntp posting host philly fan baseball fan , i'm anxious see series anyone know starts first games played \? \( think \) always good baseball \( \) pirates also good start ed doc
discover wright edu \( jim \) subject world series stats nntp posting host organization wright state university x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 3 anybody else think ws stats become part player 's career stats \? \?
subject jewish baseball players \? fry zariski harvard edu \( david fry \) organization harvard math department nntp posting host zariski harvard edu lines 10 , jeopardy , category jewish sports heros , believe answer , pitcher four hitters dodgers 60s said , hank aaron \? alex said something like , n't think hank aaron pitcher david fry fry math harvard edu division applied sciences fry bitnet harvard university ! harvard ! ! fry cambridge , 02138
klopfens andy bgsu edu \( bruce klopfenstein \) subject ind source picks baerga alomar case closed organization bowling green state university b g , oh distribution na lines 13 fester island com \( mike fester \) writes 'd say could make good equal right p rated baerga higher , actually mike finally , objective source alomar 's great player , baerga nice see objective source cited rather dad 's bigger dad posts bk
jrogoff scott skidmore edu \( jay rogoff \) subject best homeruns distribution rec organization skidmore college , saratoga springs ny lines 5 two separate occasions saw dick allen \( back \) homer shea middle black hitter 's background screen think shots would traveled 500 feet jay
gspira nyx cs du edu \( greg spira \) subject spanky \? organization university denver , dept math comp sci lines 27 boone psc edu \( jon boone \) writes mon , 12 apr 93 00 53 14 gmt 1993apr12 5700 mnemosyne cs du edu greg spira \( gspira nyx cs du edu \) wrote anybody pittsburgh area know mike lavalliere released \? last year kept saying slaught get bulk playing time , clearly better player point , leyland insisted keeping pretty strict platoon released \? n't make sense greg , story goes like spanky slow ! quicker , would still slaught tom prince , n't want lose prince order bring 11th pitcher slaught good spanky prince coming along nicely ! well , question still n't answered spanky bad enough release year , get much playing time last year \? yes , know part platoon , 's got playing time slaught , n't answer question slaught obviously better year , n't also obvious last year , n't taking away spanky 's playing time righties \? greg
camelot bradley edu \( christopher taylor \) subject melido due back \? nntp posting host camelot bradley edu organization bradley university distribution na lines 6 yankees planning activating melido perez \? 15 days dl today , bringing back weekend \? thanks info
dswartz osf org \( dan swartzendruber \) subject best homeruns organization open software foundation research institute lines 16 article hpcc01 corp hp com boell hpcc01 corp hp com \( donald p boell \) writes 'd say impressive hrs 've ever see came dave kingman infamous moon drives remember one hit circa 1976 wrigley field went across street \( dead center field \) hit house roof lot , connect , watch ! include std disclaimer h dan
sepinwal mail sas upenn edu \( alan sepinwall \) subject jewish baseball players \? organization university pennsylvania , school arts sciences lines 18 nntp posting host mail sas upenn edu article fur netcom com mss netcom com \( mark singer \) writes polish jewish mutually exclusive n't mean offend anything , i'm quoting stanky subject remember one time last year interviewed espn , interviewer \( ca n't remember \) , asked stanky jewish \( interviewer \) jewish wanted see jewish ballplayers stanky replied , i'm polish , jewish maybe n't pc thing stanky say , maybe little naive posted think devote subject finding actual jewish ballplayers \( jewish ones ever knew koufax , greenberg , blomberg \) alan
shippert cco caltech edu \( tim shippert \) subject infield fly rule organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 25 nntp posting host sandman caltech edu jrogoff scott skidmore edu \( jay rogoff \) writes one last infield fly question always puzzled n't yet addressed believe rule also deal situation however , infield fly caught , point runner legally leave base w fear doubled advancing early \? runner leave base time ball caught , 's got tag n't caught , n't tag , 's feeling lucky , runner second sprint glory soon ball popped n't caught , 's probably scored run , 's probably headed aaa effect infield fly make batter , thereby removing force runners base rules apply , standing second first open ball popped tim shippert shippert cco caltech edu going stick damned quantum jumping , regret ever anything quantum theory e
ez027993 dale ucdavis edu \( gary built like villanueva huckabay \) subject alomar vs baerga hoping stay organization julio lundy vigil society distribution na lines 37 \( lyford beverage \) writes uh , yes baerga lot flash , alomar better hitter last year batters ba slg obp g ab r h tb 2b 3b hr rbi bb sb cs e baerga , c 312 455 354 161 657 92 205 299 32 1 20 105 35 76 10 2 19 alomar , r 310 427 405 152 571 105 177 244 27 8 8 76 87 52 49 9 5 fascinating say alomar better hitter last year , immediately follow numbers showing baerga better year category see shows advantage alomar obp well , obp important offensive statistic , big margin 50 points obp worth considerably 50 points slugging said , still think baerga slightly better last year , think close wash 're likely find personally n't care much alomar 's defense n't think 's nearly good people make , ca n't turn dp save life comes across bag improperly , release slow considering high leverage dp , ca n't overlook long term , 'd move alomar another position jays could trade hot devon white something , 'll alomar could hell cf long run , think 'd rather jeff kent 2b alomar cf alomar white gary huckabay think 's loud enough , hole \? movie rights well , 're trouble hearing , sir , available thru 'd happy turn n't ted frank know many people age liked king 's x
sac saic com \( steve conroy \) subject organization saic lines 33 article netcom com , mss netcom com \( mark singer \) writes media beating incident dodger stadium wednesday death , n't seen anything rsb yet gerald perry cardinals pinch hit eighth inning two club run stroked line drive right field corner ball cleared three foot high fence went crowd darryl , racing right center , got spot time reach glove short fence , missed ball fan sitting front row , wearing , reached caught ball home run 've seen replay several times concluded darryl missed ball , fan 's glove essentially behind darryl 's several dodger fans seats immediate vicinity claimed fan unquestionably interfered strawberry cannot disputed , however , fan caught ball never took eye oblivious fielder playing also quite exuberant soon realized made catch stuff daryl tommy everyone blaming fan loss deleted saw replay several times question daryl missed ball , fan caught daryl tall first shot ball daryl 's whining think shows lack class tommy , daryl dodgers blame single fan losing game pitcher threw gopher ball \? pitchers gave 6 runs point \? sorry , tommy 2 1 game daryl 5 feet 2 inches tall , maybe maybe 'd argument
loos cup hp com \( joe loos \) subject bonds vs maddux nntp posting host cup hp com organization hewlett packard x newsreader tin 1 1 pl4 lines 27 've following giants closely season newspapers , , etc first close personal last night stick watching giants hitters struggle last year , barry 's swing impressive 's quick swing seems effortless , even compared clark \( particularly clark late \) interesting see bonds hit maddux well i'm sure barry revenge braves stroked three pretty hits \( 1b , 2b , hr \) 5 rbi 's giants team lot surprising things year addition bonds good pitching hitters seem swinging much better clayton 's defense superb mcgee seems like leading year manwaring driving ball forth hope continues think need continue well june people really sold real particularly pitching , think fresh start magowan baker etc really wiped lot negatives last years real factor helping significantly improve last year joe loos loos cup hp com
sepinwal mail sas upenn edu \( alan sepinwall \) subject yankee bullpen help ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! organization university pennsylvania , school arts sciences lines 26 nntp posting host mail sas upenn edu buck showalter ca n't win bob wickman 's pitching game life eight innings \( yanks lead 6 1 \) , buck decides let kid try get first complete game wickman manages get two outs , , four score , sudden 's 6 5 , wickman ca n't get third buck goes bullpen , farr gets first guy faces last night , jimmy key pitching another long string games life \( guy keeps getting better ! \) eight innings \( yanks lead 4 0 \) time , buck thinks , n't want repeat near fiasco wickman , 'll give bullpen work steve howe , whose era 54 00 coming game , left 81 00 n't good farr comes gives two run homer , royals win , 6 5 's going \? already third fourth time year bullpen blown lead farr howe done twice together , 's done , think even 's deal \? finally terrific starting pitching , sudden , bullpen turns shit ! 's buck gonna \? 's george gonna continues happen \? alan
marty howdy wustl edu \( marty \) subject jewish baseball players \? nntp posting host howdy organization washington u physics dept lines 3 bo \?
erics netcom com \( eric smith \) subject infield fly rule organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 31 jrogoff scott skidmore edu \( jay rogoff \) writes one last infield fly question always puzzled n't yet addressed believe rule also deal situation infield fly declared ball caught , runners tag advance risk , fly ball however , infield fly caught , point runner legally leave base w fear doubled advancing early \? ball hits ground \? fielder first touches ball hits ground \? enlightenment would appreciated i'm sure understand question rule invoked , batter automatically runners forced advance next base ball caught , n't situation runner base forced next base dropped fly ball \? , ball caught tag run \( decide stay \) , ball dropped left base time eric smith erics netcom com erics infoserv com ci 70262 , 3610
marc yogi austin ibm com \( marc j stephenson \) subject astros back ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! distribution usa organization ibm , austin lines 63 article rosie uh edu st1rp rosie uh edu \( schwam , david \) writes article austin ibm com , marc yogi austin ibm com \( marc j stephenson \) writes 2 \) astros relief corps holding together doug jones keeps effective xavier hernandez effective , 's 's reasonable left handed help , middle relief tom expected take joe boever setup man role , 's injured , expansion team acquisition anyway houston thought boever would demand much money , let go doug jones lose touch went cleveland 's star closer minors pretty short span understand , boever murphy considered expendable club houston felt positions could filled number players art doug jones key houston 's success must another great year houston challenge nl west argument murphy scared hell came last year hand , club though enough boever put awful lot games \( may led league appearances least point \) seemed viable setup guy guess 's considered crucial club remember two years ago well , though strength lower part order saved club far biggio finley n't job getting base instead filling role rbi man , bagwell assume biggio finley 's job biggio concerns , since usually starts season strong i'm concerned guys relatively consistent years good reasons decline \( injuries , old , \) expect come fine 's guys consistently good worrisome part , even coming right side note , concerned rumors concerning next year 's uniform \? talk road uniform \( blech \) traditional grey , word houston written across chest i'm mistaken , home uniforms may totally eliminate color orange \( shiver \) 's favorite color red , sounds like old road pretty dull buttons \? 'll check uniform book see 've always orange i'm really upset current dull new ones sound horrible 'd like see uniform mid 1980s return may pretty , houston established long precident wearing ugliest uniforms baseball liked well , 'll see 've got astros shirt astros stripes across shoulders trouble making wear public see might want change gee , eliminate orange , seats astros stripes section \( used gold yellow levels n't know numbers use \) saw version astros cap actually thought looked good ! marc stephenson ibm aws \( advanced workstations systems austin , tx \) disclaimer content posting independent official ibm position internet marc austin ibm com vnet marc ibm l 678 3189
fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu \( eric roush \) subject players rushed majors organization biochemistry lines 35 nntp posting host bruchner biochem duke edu article 93122 hydra gatech edu re4 prism gatech edu \( russell earnest \) writes article 1993apr15 holos0 uucp , lbr holos0 uucp \( len reed \) writes article tss com hanson tss com \( hanson \) writes n't bob horner go straight arizona state univ atlanta braves \? remember one great month hitting next heard japan month \? well , short career compared one might expected highly touted prospect due injury prone , overweight , work ethic certainly suffer rushed bigs sorry len , exactly suffered rushed bigs overweight work ethic , leading injury prone nothing loose , might corrected richmond \( intend smiley comment \? \) remember correctly \( always doubt \) , horner 's signing braves contingent starting atlanta think could gone back arizona st one year n't signed anyhow , braves try send richmond lead week long methinks horner work ethic drafted , minor league play would n't helped raw talent would gotten ml , keep , started falling wrists eric \( lazy update sig \) roush
eastgate world std com \( mark bernstein \) subject jewish baseball players \? organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 10 al weiss played second white sox early sixties , chiefly back buford good glove , hit , \( reminds still serve kosher hot dogs new \? \) mark bernstein eastgate systems , inc 134 main street watertown usa voice \( 800 \) 562 usa 1 \( 617 \) 924 eastgate world std com compuserve , 262 applelink eastgate
eastgate world std com \( mark bernstein \) subject jewish broadcasters \( jewish baseball players \? \) organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 8 matter , many gentleman press box jewish \? jewish sportscaster comes mind steve williams \( \? \) , phillies show philadelphia 80s mark bernstein eastgate systems , inc 134 main street watertown usa voice \( 800 \) 562 usa 1 \( 617 \) 924 eastgate world std com compuserve , 262 applelink eastgate
craige sad hp com \( craig eid \) subject candlestick park experience \( long \) organization hp sonoma county \( srsd mwtd mid \) x newsreader tin version 1 1 4 pl6 lines 36 've giants season ticket holder years never really complained old ballyard place sure , 's cold , food lines long , hired hands surly , part giants mystique thought went tuesday 's game \( 3 1 giants marlins \) 'stick much different place nothing short dome eliminate wind , everything lot better lines lot shorter , bathrooms clean running water , hired hands polite new foghorn \( lights blows homerun \) wooden fence nice , new bleachers bleachers start right top fence give great view , 've got beer stands bleachers complaint electronic old fashioned scoreboard looks electronic could better things done long time ago , took real businessman \( ex safeway president peter magowan \) figure like used tell checkers , customers n't come back , n't need many checkers n't knock bob lurie competent businessman n't deal much general public 'll give example level service changed onion jammed using attendant came , problem proceeded fix machine done , cleaned machine said glad able help old days , attendant folks concession stands would say go stand 100 feet away might able help , fun day craig eid e mail address craige sad hp com
quads uchicago edu \( adam shah \) subject melido due back \? reply midway uchicago edu organization university chicago distribution na lines 18 article camelot camelot bradley edu \( christopher taylor \) writes yankees planning activating melido perez \? 15 days dl today , bringing back weekend \? thanks info chicago tribune pitching form perez pitching today \( 4 16 \) given way buck changes rotation often , could work confused stat page editor adam \( midway uchicago edu \) aka obligatory go yankees baseball season ave apt 2 chicago , il \( 312 \) 667
john carson mindlink bc ca \( john carson \) subject kansas city e mail contact organization mind link ! british columbia , canada lines 11 would person running e mail list kansas city royals please e mail details regarding mailing list list know info please send info well please e mail n't time always read group john john carson mindlink bc ca john carson j h concepts \( 604 \) 589
tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) subject ind source picks baerga alomar case closed organization cornell univ cs dept , ithaca ny 14853 distribution na lines 24 article andy bgsu edu klopfens andy bgsu edu \( bruce klopfenstein \) writes fester island com \( mike fester \) writes 'd say could make good equal right p rated baerga higher , actually finally , objective source alomar 's great player , baerga nice see objective source cited rather dad 's bigger dad posts know fucked idea anybody prefers alomar baerga must jay lover indian hater sorry , got one wrong ! hate jays n't care one way indians objectively , alomar better offensive year last year , pick admit p reliable \( \? \) , objective source \? note rated alomar better offensive player , chosing baerga alomar defense 's joke ! \( alomar might gold glover , 's certainly worse baerga defensively \) valentine
bdunn cco caltech edu \( brendan dunn \) subject defensive averages 1988 1992 , third base organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 34 nntp posting host punisher caltech edu article srgenprp sr hp com srgenprp sr hp com \( craig stelter \) writes gaetti , gary 616 638 655 632 0 637 apologies n't know i'm talking \) , twins fan , like think good players park sure remember completely , think gaetti played twins '87 world series , '88 \( note 's lowest 4 \) believe next 3 \( least last two \) played angels lots factors make player hate many use dome may ideal , nice comfortably enjoy baseball football even 's snowing raining craig i'm sure company work opinions event impact gaetti 's career leg injury 1988 performance dropped radically 1988 1989 still twins 1989 1990 , look stats \( offensive defensive \) , never come back pre injury level brendan
klein pavo concordia ca \( corelmark ! \) subject best homeruns news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host concordia ca organization concordia university lines 18 n't following previous hr 's two , saw live would \( \? ! \) 1 \) rick monday 's hr bury expos nl championship 1981 hit steve rogers , primarily starter used reliever reardon warming bullpen considering monday could n't touch lhp , lee would safe bet n't even drugs time \( told around 50 others recent venture montreal blast n't important aspect timing seventh game , tie game , top 9th expos almost came back though 2 \) mike schmidt hit one killed expos 1980 close , yet , far 3 \) strawberry killed pitch second day season couple years ago went technical ring big almost left stadium ! hit hard ! ! ! corelmark !
rja mahogany126 cray com \( russ anderson \) subject nl vs al \? originator rja mahogany126 lines 12 nntp posting host mahogany126 organization 1991 world champion minnesota twins ! article news rich bnr ca , bratt crchh7a9 nosubdomain nodomain \( john bratt \) writes game length \? n't know valid statement , al games sure seem last lot longer make sure take , fisk , ect factor account russ anderson disclaimer statements reflect upon employer anyone else \( c \) 1993 ex twins' jack morris , 10 innings pitched , 0 runs \( world series mvp ! \)
steph pegasus cs uiuc edu \( dale stephenson \) subject defensive averages 1988 1992 , third base organization university illinois , dept comp sci , urbana , il lines 64 srgenprp sr hp com srgenprp sr hp com \( craig stelter \) writes dale stephenson \( steph cs uiuc edu \) wrote cs uiuc edu steph cs uiuc edu \( dale stephenson \) writes compiled last five defensive average reports , career das individual players reports stats courtesy sherri nichols players listed descending order comments , players deleted third basemen leius , scott 653 680 0 672 looks good bad 's moving short pagliarulo , mike 631 575 744 0 649 interesting line 1988 figure slightly average 1990 pathetic , 1991 next best year anybody part may mobility 1988 yankees 1990 padres , appear rotten infield 1991 twins , judging leius gaetti , metrodome may good place play third gaetti , gary 616 638 655 632 0 637 apologies n't know i'm talking \) , twins fan , like think good players park sure remember completely , think gaetti played twins '87 world series , '88 \( note 's lowest 4 \) believe next 3 \( least last two \) played angels actually , gaetti 's first year california 1991 632 da n't line career averages , 616 actually average 1988 check last three years metrodome 1990 gaetti 655 al avg 604 1991 pags 744 leius 653 al avg 620 1992 leius 680 al avg 603 last three years , highest das either league posted minnesota players three different ones , including one \( pags \) mediocre horrible elsewhere n't prove park effect work , san diego 's horrible infield numbers prove park effect work looks like strong possibility lots factors make player hate many use dome may ideal , nice comfortably enjoy baseball football even 's snowing raining might even nice play thrid base dale j stephenson \( steph cs uiuc edu \) baseball fanatic considered good look wise , especially overburdened information j golden kimball
rdetweil boi hp com \( richard detweiler \) subject vs pirates organization hewlett packard boise printer division keywords mlb , 04 16 lines 37 article 1993apr16 vfl paramax com gvl unisys com \( ed \) writes philly fan baseball fan , i'm anxious see series anyone know starts first games played \? \( think \) always good baseball \( \) pirates also good start ed doc say \? well let shell run handy dandy program mlb pit phi answer monday , 5 10 pittsburg philadelphia \( 5 35 pm \) tuesday , 5 11 pittsburg philadelphia \( 5 35 pm \) wednesday , 5 12 pittsburg philadelphia \( 5 35 pm \) friday , 6 25 philadelphia pittsburg \( 5 35 pm \) saturday , 6 26 philadelphia pittsburg \( 5 05 pm \) sunday , 6 27 philadelphia pittsburg \( 11 35 \) friday , 7 30 pittsburg philadelphia \( 5 35 pm \) saturday , 7 31 pittsburg philadelphia \( 5 05 pm \) sunday , 8 1 pittsburg philadelphia \( 11 35 \) monday , 9 27 philadelphia pittsburg \( 5 35 pm \) tuesday , 9 28 philadelphia pittsburg \( 5 35 pm \) wednesday , 9 29 philadelphia pittsburg \( 5 35 pm \) thursday , 9 30 philadelphia pittsburg \( 5 35 pm \) great little program available ftp site near \( unfortunatly n't recall one \) schedule question got answered little gem many thanks author providing service
st1rp rosie uh edu \( schwam , david \) subject astros real \? organization university houston lines 51 distribution usa nntp posting host rosie uh edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article austin ibm com , marc yogi austin ibm com \( marc j stephenson \) writes article 1993apr15 ccsvax sfasu edu z ccsvax sfasu edu writes thinks astros going places \? \? \? they're currently first place they're 5 4 , 5 1 road ! agree , lumberjack \( except 're 2nd \) ! going places san diego , los angeles , san francisco , cincinnati , denver , atlanta , miami , philadelphia , new york , montreal , pittsburgh , chicago , st louis points \) , they're 0 3 home ! , faced phillies team got 8 1 start i'm used overly enthusiastic houston fan really n't discourage , hang , lumberjack ! \( , get ahold shift key , ya \? \) apparently new owner \( \( sp \? \) \) n't particularly like excuses item paper \( austin american statesman read , somewhere else first \) said would n't take injuries excuse losing possibility accounted uh , oh n't want owner 'll keep everybody edge 'd never gotten feeling , knows \? honest , think city houston loves new owner brought baseball back houston key players houston area wanted play astros n't think many people fearful meddle team already admitted n't know whole lot baseball businessman , n't like excuses makes valid point injuries n't excuse club look depth bench season play 7 positions bass james solid outfielders hit well uribe nice well pitching staff 6 legitimate starters 're dealing young houston team , injuries n't play big role threat bullpen goes , may trouble type starters season , less pressure pen david schwam university houston st1rp jetson uh edu
timlin spot colorado edu \( michael timlin \) subject best homeruns nntp posting host spot colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 17 dswartz osf org \( dan swartzendruber \) writes article hpcc01 corp hp com boell hpcc01 corp hp com \( donald p boell \) writes 'd say impressive hrs 've ever see came dave kingman infamous moon drives remember one hit circa 1976 wrigley field went across street \( dead center field \) hit house roof lot , connect , watch ! favorite barry foote homer bounced second floor window across street second though , would kong drive last seen bouncing street dead ends park mike timlin timlin spot colorado edu
rja mahogany126 cray com \( russ anderson \) subject surfeit offense \? originator rja mahogany126 lines 35 nntp posting host mahogany126 organization 1991 world champion minnesota twins ! article jhunix hcf jhu edu , pablo jhunix hcf jhu edu \( pablo iglesias \) writes article 1993apr14 cs cornell edu tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) writes last year american league scored runs games , total 8 6 runs per game , 1 0 hr game tuesday , al 477 runs 48 games , total 9 9 runs per game , total 1 7 hr game 1987 9 8 runs per game , 2 3 hr game big question significant \? returned 1987 \? minor \? thoughts \) thought offense generally april , rising weather got warm pitchers got tired may bigger norm seems 1 n't get feeling weather issue year n't seem really cold spell north america makes harder hit \( mention making ball carry less \) obviously watch twins chicago cold spell \? 's snowing week minnesota \( 5 inches duluth last weekend \) would still put things early tell category yup russ anderson disclaimer statements reflect upon employer anyone else \( c \) 1993 ex twins' jack morris , 10 innings pitched , 0 runs \( world series mvp ! \)
paula koufax cv hp com \( paul andresen \) subject dick nntp posting host koufax cv hp com organization lady stand triple lines 13 anyone know dick radio reader npr one lefty pitched briefly '64 '65 \? curious paul , spending much time reading baseball encyclopedia stretch farm animal beyond natural length paula koufax cv hp com paul andresen hewlett packard \( 503 \) 750 3511 home 3006 nw mckinley corvallis , 97330 \( 503 \) 752 8424 sabr member since 1979
subject sparky anderson gets win 2000 , tigers beat 's tim cs cosc georgetown edu \( tim snyder \) distribution world organization georgetown university , washington dc nntp posting host cs cosc georgetown edu lines 33 article ragraca vela acs oakland edu ragraca vela acs oakland edu \( randy graca \) writes manager sparky anderson gets 2 , career win moments ago , tigers completed two game sweep oakland 's tiger stadium beating 's 3 2 highlights r h e oakland 2 9 0 detroit 3 7 1 game description deleted post game interview \( wjr radio detroit \) , sparky anderson said one times 's gotten emotional managing career big moment , i'm sure us tiger fans unanimously happy way get number 2 , 000 ! woofing deleted randy another post game interview , larussa claimed sparky best manager , explaining part history sparky blow losing go tigers ! ! ! tim timothy law snyder department computer science 225 georgetown university washington , dc tim normal georgetown edu
cmk athena mit edu \( charles kozierok \) subject yankees win home opener organization massachusetts institute technology lines 14 distribution usa nntp posting host marinara mit edu article 93105 vma cc nd edu rvesterm vma cc nd edu writes article 1993apr14 alleg edu , yankee org \( sam millitello \) says i'm telling , sam , three l 's call mom ask bob vesterman yeah , case even n't enough prompt boy genius sam pick paper see name spelled , 's another hint single l comes two charles
chuck cygnus eid anl gov \( charles \) subject slugging percentage computed \? organization utexas mail news gateway lines 3 nntp posting host cs utexas edu subject line says thanks advance please email chuck cygnus eid anl gov go cubs !
ind25 blurt oswego edu subject jewish baseball players \? organization suny college oswego , oswego , ny lines 3 believe rusty staub also jewish ball player also , brown back early 20th century pitcher whose nickname 3 fingers brown obvious reasons 3 fingers
roger crux princeton edu \( roger lustig \) subject braves pitching updatedir originator news nimaster nntp posting host crux princeton edu reply roger astro princeton edu \( roger lustig \) organization princeton university lines 23 article 1993apr15 1 acad drake edu sbp002 acad drake edu writes clear 'd certainly rather team winning 4 1 games 2 1 games 2 1 game , luck going play much bigger role 4 1 game still need pitching staff hold opposing team one run 've scored four runs , n't ! strain even best pitching staff \? make easier \? 2 1 game , best pitching staff world ca n't compensate blown call , bad hop , wind winning close wrong way win keeping opposing runs scoring lot insurance shit happens aspect baseball every great even good pitching big red machine 70 's league average pitching somehow , rose morgan bench perez etc managed win 100 games , 108 roger
roger crux princeton edu \( roger lustig \) subject time best players originator news nimaster nntp posting host crux princeton edu reply roger astro princeton edu \( roger lustig \) organization princeton university lines 40 article 1993apr15 apl jhu edu \( aplcomm jhuapl edu \) writes article 1993apr14 princeton edu , roger crux princeton edu \( roger lustig \) writes article 1993apr13 bsu ucs , 00mbstultz leo bsuvc bsu edu writes 've recently working project determine greatest players respective 2b career u johnny hodapp , greatest 2nd baseman cleveland indians history \? 225 hits 1930 , consistantly 300 great , great second baseman um , header said career hodapp managed 3000 pa nine years majors consistently 300 , make three years row , preceded part time year , plus last year , boston hodapp qualified batting title five times injured \? retired right around 28th birthday anyway , hodapp put flashy numbers year everybody put flashy numbers really good year bat 300 years marred lack power inability draw walks 163 3000 pa bases balls , describe feared hitter hand , part long line famous cleveland 2b , riggs stephenson , etc roger jon johnny hodapp aplcomm jhuapl edu
roger crux princeton edu \( roger lustig \) subject new home bosox ! ! ! originator news nimaster nntp posting host crux princeton edu reply roger astro princeton edu \( roger lustig \) organization princeton university lines 30 article 1993apr15 scott skidmore edu jrogoff scott skidmore edu \( jay rogoff \) writes agree , though 'd also happy stadium looks like new new park also made baseball unlike three rivers , vet , , etc , 's football park also play baseball 're multipurpose subject , let 's forget shea , designed accommodate mets jets first stadium \( think \) box seats rollers could oriented right angles baseball parallel football first , dc stadium , built 2 years earlier nowadays n't move seats back exhibition games 3rd base lf lower deck used move metal , pretty noisy bat day course , jets gone jersey \( truly good football stadium \) , mets saddled multipurpose stadium , 's circular , seats almost always far action mets announcers kiner murphy particular always hyped beautiful shea stadium , truly 's vastly better fixed , though back late 70 's dump roger \( n't like jet noise \? \)
roger crux princeton edu \( roger lustig \) subject dave kingman hall fame originator news nimaster nntp posting host crux princeton edu reply roger astro princeton edu \( roger lustig \) organization princeton university lines 85 article 1993apr15 news yale edu \( steve tomassi \) writes hi , baseball fans ! say \? n't think deserves \? mean , heck , dave winfield \( ho hum \) seriously considered , lee smith \( ha \) , n't give dave kingman chance \? darrell evans ! yeah , yeah ! hall fame takes , take eddie murray jeff reardon um , \? eddie murray superb first baseman long time winfield produced consistently 20 years , excellently several occasions dave kingman 's best year like darryl strawberry 's typical year mets darrell evans , , whole lot hit homers , kong well , case , sick tired \( mostly sick \) everybody giving hall fame consideration players today 's standards , marginal talking \? yes , eddie murray marginal , 's 's 38 years old n't marginal long time honestly , ozzie smith robin yount n't belong 're shortstops hung around long time big deal smith hung around long time fielded position better anyone else ever yount stopped shortstop decade ago , case n't noticed one two mvp awards centerfielder let 's little selective , huh \? stop handing honors liberally save guys really deserve face , like \? many players hall n't anywhere near guys 're running something n't done , little prestige hall fame anymore 's already case , standards bad players hall 20 's 30 's recent picks generally excellent certain individuals believe steve garvey jack morris potential candidates , absurdity apparent gee , guys even compare likely future hall famers like kirby puckett nolan ryan \? , cares \? stan musial anywhere near good babe ruth \? really obviously belongs hall generally top 1 major leaguers players come game , top 1 , yes , 's pretty easy argue smith , yount , evans , winfield , etc top 1 dave kingman hand , liability throughout career course , garvey n't gotten lot hof press , n't know mean ryan , w l better morris' \? 's lot voters tend look morris awfully good decade , n't lead mlb history walks allowed , either roger
roger crux princeton edu \( roger lustig \) subject jewish baseball players \? originator news nimaster nntp posting host crux princeton edu reply roger astro princeton edu \( roger lustig \) organization princeton university lines 24 article 15apr93 14691229 0062 lafibm lafayette edu vb30 lafibm lafayette edu \( vb30 \) writes wondering friend talking day , \( reason \) trying come names jewish baseball players , past present n't able come much , except sandy koufax , \( somebody \) stankowitz , maybe john lowenstein anyone come know sounds pretty lame racking brains , humor us thanks help stankiewicz \? doubt koufax one two jewish hank greenberg good players buddy , johnny , norm larry sherry , ken , saul , ed 150 jewish major leaguers years ago article someone keeps track spy magazine article entitled jews first , course also least two books subject roger
roger crux princeton edu \( roger lustig \) subject jewish baseball players \? originator news nimaster nntp posting host crux princeton edu reply roger astro princeton edu \( roger lustig \) organization princeton university lines 39 article 1993apr15 midway uchicago edu thf2 midway uchicago edu writes article 1qkkodinn5f5 jhunix hcf jhu edu pablo jhunix hcf jhu edu \( pablo iglesias \) writes article 15apr93 14691229 0062 lafibm lafayette edu vb30 lafibm lafayette edu \( vb30 \) writes wondering friend talking day , \( reason \) trying come names jewish baseball players , past present n't able come much , except sandy koufax , \( somebody \) stankowitz , maybe john lowenstein anyone come know sounds pretty lame racking brains , humor us thanks help hank greenberg would famous , jewish faith actually affected play \( missing late season world series games yom kippur \) jewish hof'er rod carew \( converted \) ever really convert \? married jewish woman , 've never heard say converted elliot maddox , hand lowenstein jewish , well montana 's representative major leagues undeserving cy young award winner steve stone jewish stone , koufax , ken \( \? might wrong pitcher , i'm thinking one threw hitter al nl \) , big ed , 's quite starting rotation moe berg catch harry , 3b chance infield yep , saul era title 1949 blowing arm stanky jewish \? dave cohen kinda misinterpretation \? whatever , n't look like stuck around majors long 'd surprised btw , may shopping around make room roger
roger crux princeton edu \( roger lustig \) subject sandberg , runs , rbis \( notes jays vs indians series \) originator news nimaster nntp posting host crux princeton edu reply roger astro princeton edu \( roger lustig \) organization princeton university distribution na lines 36 article news rich bnr ca bratt crchh7a9 nosubdomain nodomain \( john bratt \) writes article cs dal ca , niguma ug cs dal ca \( gord niguma \) writes alomar fans left rbi fans runs list dependant team \( large extent \) frank thomas hit first , 'd lose lot rbi 's anyways many 2nd place hitters known drive 100 runs \? n't happen often unlikely devon white 's 300 obp front i'm pretty sure sandberg done least \( know someone correct i'm wrong \) rbis runs scored two important offensive statistics talk obp slg want , fact remains team scores runs wins game ! right cares player gets credited , long team gets runs \? player helps team get r rbi , n't score , cares \? consider player single player b grounder short reaches force 2nd player c double , b 3rd player sac fly b gets run , gets rbi sure helped team c \? think hard , flame away wish roger
prime com \( max logan 5 1 \) subject new home bosox ! ! ! lines 20 psuvm psu edu writes heard month back red sox getting new dome stadium relatives moved way , said city releasing funds anybody verify \? game bosox fan pa lived boston area 15 years talking new boston garden \( hockey basketball \) since 've lived one day last hurdle overcome , next day 's new hurdle fans stadium \( whatever 's called year \) nearly long , preliminary proposals new stadium local politics prevents anything done timely fashion new ballpark lifetime max logan nashua nh
subject cubs mailing list andrew dark side moon uoknor edu \( chihuahua charlie \) distribution usa organization ou academic user services nntp posting host loopback uoknor edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 lines 14 lines 14 anyone running chicago national league list \? , please send information andrew aardvark ucs uoknor edu thanks ! chihuahua charlie ou responsible academic user services anything anywhere , university oklahoma except one andrew aardvark ucs uoknor edu incident 200
zappala pollux usc edu \( daniel zappala \) subject organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 31 distribution world nntp posting host pollux usc edu mark singer brings strawberry incident , lost homerun fan caught dodger game public address announcer makes speech wherein says fans welcome balls hit stands long interfere field play fan wrong \? aware situation acted avoid possibility interference \? yes , think done get way much fans want catch ball , really aware winning game important dodger fan , aware home stadium , entails helping home team win way possible soon ball hit far , first instinct root darryl catch , try catch , particularly sitting close enjoy attitude wrigley fans , visiting team home runs much , actually throw back field , nothing whether darryl could caught sure , probably screwed , fan realize first responsibility get way help team win daniel daniel usc edu
dwarner journalism indiana edu \( david j \) subject yankee bullpen help ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! nntp posting host clove journalism indiana edu reply dwarner journalism indiana edu organization indiana university lines 15 alan sepinwall writes bullpen blues deleted 's buck gonna \? 's george gonna continues happen \? alan george logical thing bullpen n't performing fire manager david j \( dwarner journalism indiana edu \) blue riddle productions 1993 's rap art ep coming tape time real e mail 411
kubey sgi com \( ken kubey \) subject dave kingman hall fame organization silicon graphics , inc , mountain view , ca lines 16 nntp posting host summit wpd sgi com article 1993apr16 princeton edu roger astro princeton edu \( roger lustig \) writes ryan , w l better morris' \? 's lot voters tend look morris awfully good decade , n't lead mlb history walks allowed , either despite walks loses , ryan deserves hall fame \( imho \) based ho hitters strike records extra people think andre 400 hr dawson hof \? name ken kubey qb reading , editing printing text address kubey sgi com without express written consent disclaimer usual major league baseball prohibited
st1ge jane uh edu \( edward hui \) subject bonds vs maddux organization university houston lines 55 reply st1ge jane uh edu nntp posting host jane uh edu article cup hp com , loos cup hp com \( joe loos \) writes 've following giants closely season newspapers , , etc first close personal last night stick watching giants hitters struggle last year , barry 's swing impressive 's quick swing seems effortless , even compared clark \( particularly clark late \) interesting see bonds hit maddux well i'm sure barry revenge braves stroked three pretty hits \( 1b , 2b , hr \) 5 rbi 's giants always hit maddux well , interesting maddux pitch around bonds get clayton last night threw 2 straight fastballs plate bonds 1st last night , got away first one , bonds hit second one park 3rd , clark third base one , maddux intentionally walk bonds , bonds dropped single left center giants team lot surprising things year addition bonds good pitching hitters seem swinging much better clayton 's defense superb mcgee seems like leading year manwaring driving ball forth braves announcers pointed mcgee leadoff hitter scored run yet always hit around 300 , i'm concerning base percentage key lineup matt williams , stay hot bonds hit runners base hope continues think need continue well june people really sold real particularly pitching pitching gets set back bud black placed dl burba done superb job filling far , looks like different pitcher last year however , swift terrible starts burba moving rotation , mike jackson right handed reliever aside rod beck , 'll get lot actions also hope dusty manage bullpen better roger craig , especially beck concerned beck used 3 straight days earlier week , think fresh start magowan baker etc really wiped lot negatives last years real factor helping significantly improve last year far good ! edward hui
traven pitt edu \( neal traven \) subject jewish baseball players \? lines 21 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 ind25 blurt oswego edu wrote believe rusty staub also jewish ball player also , brown back early 20th century pitcher whose nickname 3 fingers brown obvious reasons 3 fingers 0 2 , ind25 daniel patrick staub catholic school kid , brown farm kid \( probably protestant \) somewhere midwest lost fingers farm machinery accident jim palmer n't jewish , mr jockey shorts 's parents also , i'm absolutely certain carew actually converted wife children certainly jewish neal traven pitt edu 're young , traven vms cis pitt edu immature forever larry andersen
dwarner journalism indiana edu \( david j \) subject spanky \? nntp posting host clove journalism indiana edu reply dwarner journalism indiana edu organization indiana university lines 37 sherri nichols writes article psc edu boone psc edu \( jon boone \) writes spanky slow ! quicker , would still slaught tom prince , n't want lose prince order bring 11th pitcher slaught good spanky prince coming along nicely ! tom prince 28 year old hit catcher think young young ca n't begin fathom pirates afraid losing guy , 's aaa last 5 seasons pirates released kirk gibson last year prince options , eventually sent prince anyway , cleared waivers without 's another year older , still ca n't hit think would n't clear waivers \? would care \? 's strong possibility bucs absolutely catching prospects minors point least nobody ready serious aaa majors duty main reason might stayed prince could age , especially spanky creeping toward mid something things considered , though , 'd lot comfortable spanky behind plate prince n't decent backup looking work \? sherri nichols snichols adobe com david j \( dwarner journalism indiana edu \) blue riddle productions 1993 's rap art ep coming tape time real e mail 411
scott asd com \( scott barman \) subject jewish baseball players \? organization american software development corp , west babylon , ny lines 16 article 15apr93 14691229 0062 lafibm lafayette edu vb30 lafibm lafayette edu \( vb30 \) writes wondering friend talking day , \( reason \) trying come names jewish baseball players , past present n't able come much , except sandy koufax , \( somebody \) stankowitz , maybe john lowenstein anyone come know sounds pretty lame racking brains , humor us thanks help n't ron , former yankee got first base hit designated hitter , jewish \? \? scott barman mets mailing list \( feed following shell \) scott asd com mail mets request asd com ! subscribe let 's go mets ! !
scott asd com \( scott barman \) subject jewish baseball players \? organization american software development corp , west babylon , ny lines 18 article 15apr93 14691229 0062 lafibm lafayette edu vb30 lafibm lafayette edu \( vb30 \) writes wondering friend talking day , \( reason \) trying come names jewish baseball players , past present n't able come much , except sandy koufax , \( somebody \) stankowitz , maybe john lowenstein anyone come know sounds pretty lame racking brains , humor us thanks help oh forgot art , former red mets player batted 301 injuries 1969 \( fell short qualifying top 10 injuries platoon ron n't jewish \) scott barman mets mailing list \( feed following shell \) scott asd com mail mets request asd com ! subscribe let 's go mets ! !
scott asd com \( scott barman \) subject sid fernandez \? organization american software development corp , west babylon , ny distribution usa lines 18 article 1993apr15 1575 csi jpl nasa gov cub csi jpl nasa gov \( ray miller \) writes read morning sid fernandez left last game stiffness shoulder anyone information extent injury \( indeed one \) , weather cold air colorado got joints little stiff \? thanks help said radio developed stiffness shoulder throwing n't loosen cold night denver decided remove game rather let pitch expected pitch next turn rotation \( expected april 20 , shea vs giants \) scott barman mets mailing list \( feed following shell \) scott asd com mail mets request asd com ! subscribe let 's go mets ! !
cmk athena mit edu \( charles kozierok \) subject best homeruns organization massachusetts institute technology lines 22 nntp posting host electric monk mit edu article 1993apr16 osf org dswartz osf org \( dan swartzendruber \) writes article hpcc01 corp hp com boell hpcc01 corp hp com \( donald p boell \) writes 'd say impressive hrs 've ever see came dave kingman infamous moon drives remember one hit circa 1976 wrigley field went across street \( dead center field \) hit house roof lot , connect , watch ! best home run ever seen came , believe , roger clemens \( sorry , val \) couple years ago threw ball incaviglia literally 's neck , absolutely hammered crap swing , clemens motioned new ball n't even turn around look , even get upset ball hit lights left field standard , 70 feet green monster \( 100 feet ground total ! \) truly amazing shot charles
fls keynes econ duke edu \( forrest smith \) subject braves pitching updatedir organization duke university durham , n c lines 19 nntp posting host keynes econ duke edu amazingly , pitchers , matter good mechanics , machines cy young winners n't pitch , unaware offenses braves' pitching staff already showing signs cracking strain knowing 're going get many \( \) runs unfortunately , braves' pitchers bad long organization put much stress \( mean stress \) pitching completely ignored hitting braves right looking woefully similar braves mid seventies heaven help us econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke correspondents email changed e l new address fls econ duke edu f mail bounces , try fls raphael acpub duke edu u
fls keynes econ duke edu \( forrest smith \) subject braves organization duke university durham , n c lines 22 nntp posting host keynes econ duke edu term stopper generally used refer pitcher , one counted pitch strong game keep team going losing streak braves plenty pitchers fit description , although right 'd expect smoltz glavine take mantle braves lack , however , offensive stopper , somebody look bring hitting slump 's one braves got rid best pure hitter , lonnie smith , terry pendleton current roster ever shown cursory ability hit oh , another thing worries ron gant seems slowed step 's scary slow ron gant n't much going econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke correspondents email changed e l new address fls econ duke edu f mail bounces , try fls raphael acpub duke edu u
dwarner journalism indiana edu \( david j \) subject omar vizquel grand salami \? nntp posting host clove journalism indiana edu reply dwarner journalism indiana edu organization indiana university lines 16 cheryl marks writes think omar 's grand slam result new fan club \? last week banner appeared older women omar depends much older \? cheryl david j \( dwarner journalism indiana edu \) blue riddle productions 1993 's rap art ep coming tape time real e mail 411
kime mongoose torolab ibm com \( edward kim \) subject ind source picks baerga alomar case closed reply tedward cs cornell edu 's message fri , 16 apr 1993 19 07 35 gmt distribution na lines 8 1993apr16 cs cornell edu organization ibm toronto lab 's joke ! \( alomar might gold glover , 's certainly worse baerga defensively \) actually alomar two time gold glover \( 91 92 \) valentine
dwarner journalism indiana edu \( david j \) subject mlb c nntp posting host clove journalism indiana edu reply dwarner journalism indiana edu organization indiana university lines 8 could kind soul e mail 411 find mlb c program \? i'm interested road trips year david j \( dwarner journalism indiana edu \) blue riddle productions 1993 's rap art ep coming tape time real e mail 411
rickert nextwork rose hulman edu \( john h rickert \) subject gotta question organization computer science department rose hulman lines 24 distribution usa reply rickert nextwork rose hulman edu \( john h rickert \) nntp posting host g215a 1 nextwork rose hulman edu article sdcc12 ucsd edu demers cs ucsd edu \( david demers \) writes article 68 0 symantec com , symantec com \( jimmy kuo \) writes gt0523e prism gatech edu \( michael andre mule \) writes maximum runs allowed stopper get credit relief \? e stopper comes 5 run lead save come pitch last three innings , team ahead got wins game , get save correct pitched least 3 innings , entered team lead , pitcher game ended , game never tied stint , team , get save well , rulebook says opinion scorer , must pitched effectively 3 innings save automatic , unlike others someone sabr actually looked games years ago found official scorer awarded save every one games even pitcher pitched badly \( allowing 4 5 runs \) seeing , hearing \( two sense worth \) john rickert rickert nextwork rose hulman edu
tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) subject sandberg , runs , rbis \( notes jays vs indians series \) organization cornell univ cs dept , ithaca ny 14853 distribution na lines 53 article 1993apr16 princeton edu roger astro princeton edu \( roger lustig \) writes right cares player gets credited , long team gets runs \? player helps team get r rbi , n't score , cares \? amusing , n't \? seems realize much baseball team game , combining efforts every player win consider red sox game last night sox 4 3 bottom 13th game \? clemens pitched strong nine \( \? \) innings , allowing two runs ryan pitched couple shutout innings , though needed excellent defensive plays behind quantrill pitched couple innings , gave go ahead run , got credited win sox scored two bottom inning looks like team effort ! yet quantrill got credit win offense \? dawson vaughn hit \( think \) hrs early game without either one , sox would lost nine quintana led 13th solid single zupcic pinch ran quintana , providing speed go first third cooper ripped second single inning melvin avoided dp , getting run home sac fly much help , something scrub richardson hit double , scoring speedy cooper way first ! \( hill 's lack defense helped \) cooper zupcic credited runs , melvin richardson credited rbis seems quintana 's hit set whole inning ! melvin really contribute much richardson \? furthermore , people seem consider rbis significant runs melvin contribute cooper \? cooper provided game winning , moved tying run third base one ! assigning credit based runs rbis clearly ridiculous argue obp slg n't show came clutch , r rbi n't better least obp slg n't claim try tell 's red sox contributed last night 's victory 20 ! valentine
thornley micro cs umn edu \( david h thornley \) subject erickson , keith miller \? article news2 organization university minnesota , minneapolis , csci dept lines 17 nntp posting host micro cs umn edu article 1993apr16 mintaka lcs mit edu catfish lcs mit edu \( frank kim \) writes hi , wondering anyone knew erickson keith miller expected come back exactly dunno miller mean scott erickson , currently twins least consistent good player , pulled muscle neighborhood rib cage made essentially impossible pitch temporarily , expected back mound sunday david thornley tickets see one scott pitch
fls keynes econ duke edu \( forrest smith \) subject infield fly rule organization duke university durham , n c lines 13 nntp posting host keynes econ duke edu article gap caltech edu shippert cco caltech edu \( tim shippert \) writes infield fly rule , 's feeling lucky , runner second sprint glory soon ball popped n't caught , 's probably scored run , 's probably headed aaa unless 's deion sanders , case heads back dugout waits next base running blunder opportunity econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke correspondents email changed e l new address fls econ duke edu f mail bounces , try fls raphael acpub duke edu u
sepinwal mail sas upenn edu \( alan sepinwall \) subject melido due back \? distribution na organization university pennsylvania , school arts sciences lines 16 nntp posting host mail sas upenn edu melido came dl today start tonight rangers \( , go distance bullpen n't come \) i'm outta like vladimir ! alan sepinwall 's \? ice happens water gets cold \? kent happens people get sexually frustrated val kilmer , real genius
sepinwal mail sas upenn edu \( alan sepinwall \) subject wfan organization university pennsylvania , school arts sciences lines 27 nntp posting host mail sas upenn edu article 1993apr16 cabell vcu edu csc2imd cabell vcu edu \( ian derby \) writes serious side maybe sub sports radio tv much people complain one station another , information hear lot depth get ap wire usa today , benefit favorite teams outside vicinity , would wonders people get talk said eagles lupica said bonilla incident etc station across country anyone agree \? agree , although would idea go 've got vote i'm outta like vladimir alan 's \? ice happens water gets cold \? kent happens people get sexually frustrated val kilmer , real genius
dwarner journalism indiana edu \( david j \) subject bonilla nntp posting host clove journalism indiana edu reply dwarner journalism indiana edu organization indiana university distribution usa lines 11 jiann ming su writes bobby bonilla supposedly use word got mad author clubhouse banned baseball year like schott \? would n't bother david j \( dwarner journalism indiana edu \) blue riddle productions 1993 's rap art ep coming tape time real e mail 411
tedward cs cornell edu \( edward ted fischer \) subject best homeruns organization cornell univ cs dept , ithaca ny 14853 lines 18 article senator bedfellow mit edu cmk athena mit edu \( charles kozierok \) writes best home run ever seen came , believe , roger clemens \( sorry , val \) couple years ago threw ball incaviglia literally 's neck , absolutely hammered crap swing , clemens motioned new ball n't even turn around look , even get upset ball hit lights left field standard , 70 feet green monster \( 100 feet ground total ! \) truly amazing shot agree home runs clemens always memorable kinda like n't happen often cheers , valentine
hilbert stanford edu \( \) subject jewish baseball players \? organization brotherhood breath lines 8 thought walt weiss jewish seem recall mentioned still oakland also , suspicions esther canseco \( \)
sweda css itd umich edu \( sean sweda \) subject royals final run total organization university michigan itd consulting support lines 22 nntp posting host stimpy css itd umich edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 've saying quite time , absent net figured 'd stick neck bit royals set record runs scored al team since inception dh rule \( p ideas \? \) fall easily short 600 runs , 's damn sure ca n't believe media fools picking win division \( like tom gage detroit news claiming robinson kind genius trades 's made \) c ya sean sean sweda sweda css itd umich edu css itd consultant president , bob sura fan club gm manager motor city marauders internet baseball league play ball !
strobe atc olivetti com \( \) subject era formula distribution ca organization olivetti atc cupertino ca , usa lines 17 hello subject tells trying find formula calculate era pitchers baseball fans please e mail atc olivetti com thank much
kmelcher rafael arco com \( kenneth \) subject 1964 phillies deja vu \? reply kmelcher rafael arco com organization arco exploration production technology lines 3 dad always blamed phillies collapse '64 sept 21 , 1964 , phillies something like 9 game lead 12 play born sept 21 , 1964 phils proceeded lose something like 10 straight cards 10 straight \( anyone know hte exact numbers \? \) , pennant blown day dad likes remind began born !
gspira nyx cs du edu \( greg spira \) subject candlestick park experience \( long \) organization university denver , dept math comp sci lines 19 craige sad hp com \( craig eid \) writes things done long time ago , took real businessman \( ex safeway president peter magowan \) figure like used tell checkers , customers n't come back , n't need many checkers n't knock bob lurie competent businessman n't deal much general public interesting article , craig 's amazing hard get baseball teams understand properly market teams treat customers business could ever get away 19th century attitudes current owners display running clubs guess owners look baseball 's high growth rate ask 's necessary bring 20th century business practices game , n't realize much growth game capable much pay terms long term popularity better game fans greg
rickert nextwork rose hulman edu \( john h rickert \) subject players rushed majors organization computer science department rose hulman lines 13 reply rickert nextwork rose hulman edu \( john h rickert \) nntp posting host g215a 1 nextwork rose hulman edu article 93122 hydra gatech edu re4 prism gatech edu \( russell earnest \) writes brings back long suffering memories pre chop braves fans kept promised bob horner dale murphy back back power slam could stop \? guess 'll never know \? horner played 130 games 1985 hit 27 hr murphy played 162 hit 37 1986 horner hit 27 141 games murphy hit 29 160 games \( braves lost 96 89 games \) john rickert rickert nextwork rose hulman edu
woods ncar ucar edu \( greg woods \) subject rockies spoon feed game mets organization scientific computing division ncar boulder , co lines 18 article hpcc01 corp hp com boell hpcc01 corp hp com \( donald p boell \) writes , bichette look totally lost outfield \? 's playing horrible defense baylor said wednesday 's game wanted shake lineup little , bichette rough time defensively clark hitting true word went thursday 's game gerald young right daryl boston \( hot bat \) left baylor careful say though n't necessarily mean changes permanent wanted give two shot clark bichette playing well defense bichette , looks like right field mile high stadium bitch play visiting outfielders problems \( although bobby bonilla made great catch crashing wall rob daryl boston extra base hit thursday 's game \) greg
admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu \( steve c liu \) subject bring 's organization homewood academic computing , johns hopkins university , baltimore , md , usa lines 39 distribution world expires 5 9 95 nntp posting host jhunix hcf jhu edu summary root , root , root orioles heard eli selling team group would help 's could make real free agent offseason training camp reports everything pretty positive right backup catcher postion parent although would prefer parent 1 draft pick jeff may coming faster 's hierarchy minors faster expected mike flanagan trying another comeback big ben defended coaches saying homers given awful lot , came beginning season really improved second half may ben 's year feel may mussina 's cy young year , able pitch entire season without periods fatigue like last year around august really hope provide rf support 's need decent hoped martinez could learn defense better play like '91 's right n't many left handed hitters anderson proving last year fluke cal 's return averages would big drive pennant rotation sutcliffe , mussina , mcdonald , rhodes , \? \? \? \? \? olson interesting case strike side load bases get three pop outs \? never know way see al east year \( personal biases mixed \) baltimore new york toronto milwaukee cleveland boston detroit \( top 4 true contenders mind one 4 definitely win division unless snows hell maryland \) feel baltimore 's season finally put everything together \) admiral steve c liu internet address admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu committee liberation intergration terrifying organisms rehabilitation society red dwarf polymorph bangles greatest female rock band ever existed ! sig brought frungy ! sport kings !
admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu \( steve c liu \) subject baseball stats organization homewood academic computing , johns hopkins university , baltimore , md , usa lines 17 distribution usa expires 5 5 93 nntp posting host jhunix hcf jhu edu summary 1992 ii stats wanted hello , friends running homewood fantasy baseball league \( pure fantasy baseball teams \) , running league using earl weaver baseball ii comm disk ii need stats 1992 season \( preferably 1992 major league stat disk \) '92 total stats needs split stats otherwise 200 inning games comm disk turns total stats vs l 's stats unless know right left handed stats , anyone '92 stat disk please e mail ! admiral steve c liu internet address admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu committee liberation intergration terrifying organisms rehabilitation society red dwarf polymorph bangles greatest female rock band ever existed ! sig brought frungy ! sport kings !
dchhabra stpl ists ca \( deepak chhabra \) subject superstars attendance \( teemu selanne , leaders \) nntp posting host stpl ists ca organization solar terresterial physics laboratory , ists distribution na lines 115 dean j \( posting 8 pitt edu \) writes wrote pens got mario , granted big publicity , etc , etc , interest immediately generated gretzky thing la however , , neither team would seen marked improvement attendance team record improve year lemieux came , pittsburgh finished 38 points following arrival , pens finished 53 , 76 , 72 , 81 , 87 , 72 , 88 , 87 points , couple stanley cups thrown point pens attendance near capacity \( 34 40 sellouts \) yet n't made playoffs since 1982 explain 6th place team breaking attendance records n't playoffs 7 years \? mario lemieux explanation , imho could make case expectation improving team would make playoffs reason funny mention exactly case going make think reason lemieux 168 point season first non gretzky win hart ross since 1980 people turned watch play grant star like mario draw fans , even team sucks short term still think attendance increase last , unless team winning competitive improving butt kicking one pittsburgh still getting better , people continued support suddenly dropped , say , 50 points , 'd knee surgery people jumping bandwagon also , following year \( 88 89 \) pens 89 points 87 ok numbers came nhl guide record book made transaction try build winner around mario , true improvement attendance came started \( coffey late 1987 \) even playoff bound team doubling attendance occured 1984 85 previous year increase 38 points 53 points going arrival mario lemieux give credit mario since deserves point n't mario , expectation things come \( e winning team \) created next great hockey superstar anybody jumps says i'm picking words , go back read thread started might help think would go fan 's mind suddenly found interest mario pens gee , mario lemieux amazing , 'll go watch play , gee , 've got kick ass guy side , 'll go watch play think latter similar thing happened l gretzky 's arrival , per game , constant sellouts still selling every game despite showing little improvement since gretzky 's first year explain \? people going see gretzky certainly n't going see winner , n't got winner 've much better teams past history currently , yet n't draw well n't think accurate tickets sell , people n't go games think thread already discussed season ticket holders la n't always use tickets effect , kings initial success following gretzky 's arrival \( 68 91 points , source \) corresponding attendance jump , effective drop attendance even though ticket sales may changed much whether kings debatable claim since gretzky 's arrival least competitive also claim mcnall made stupid move trying oiler dynasty 's another story included n't like mcnall \) anyway , mcnall heavy marketing around gretzky , undoubtedly also responsible attendance sales , etc said , kings little past couple years empty seats forum even tickets sold think case lemieux gretzky , player winning major drawing power short term , imo although think 's inevitable team improve player lemieux gretzky , simply make people around better winning sure hell helps \) well , least full agreement ! make roger 's point valid , jets n't saying roger ever valid point \? could n't resist getting huge jump productivity , yet getting huge jump attendance due emergence teemu selanne 17th best record hockey , sure hell n't winning yes , worse last year think type reasoning applied new pittsburgh fan applies extra people showing winnipeg games 's difficult predict , think jets miss playoffs next season year maintain attendance levels \? seriously doubt , case expectation improving team would gone , without selanne provide example rocket ismail toronto cfl leave n't know much cfl \? 's case fair enough , n't case i'm curious hear explanation
dchhabra stpl ists ca \( deepak chhabra \) subject nhl team leaders nntp posting host stpl ists ca organization solar terresterial physics laboratory , ists lines 42 article 1993mar29 ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) writes jets use breakaway pass scheme create scoring sensation order generate interest teams score many goals winnipeg selanne ice winnipeg scores ice ca n't see contribution described impressive implicitly assuming goals scored winnipeg selanne ice blamed roger , forward winnipeg lousy defensive record anyway let 's put another way john cullen 's terrible 's excuse \? powerplay points n't count \? neither selanne 's object game feed selanne win feeding selanne contribute meaningful way winning knowledgeable hockey observers world would agree feeding selanne score contribute meaningful way winning pat burns would n't goal suck like team 're worried teemu glenn anderson team \? know selanne best know jet 's management wants , object exercise allow selanne best , win hockey games best score refer comment , selanne goal suck see way parades around arms scoring goal \? would think messiah returned nope , n't see busy watching foligno jump goal
aludra usc edu \( jonathan barrett \) subject year 's biggest worst \( opinion \) keywords nhl , awards article aludra organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 15 nntp posting host aludra usc edu comment kings , obvious candidate pleasant surprise alex zhitnik came highly touted defensive defenseman , 's clearly much great skater hard shot \( though wish accurate \) fact , pretty much allowed kings trade away huge defensive liability paul coffey kelly hrudey biggest disappointment thought good begin , best , 's mediocre goaltender better choice would tomas sandstrom , though fault , thugs toronto decided threaten career order avoid goal , award goes robert lang , czech robitaille could easily mvp , 'd prefer give rob blake quietly becoming one league 's premier defensemen , kings manage hold onto rest young defense , could one day mean 'll let fewer goals hartford honorable mentions majestic marty warren rychel jon
assist orion oac uci edu \( assist coordination site \) subject year 's biggest worst \( opinion \) keywords nhl , awards article news distribution world organization university california , irvine lines 20 nntp posting host orion oac uci edu article c4zcii ftn watserv1 uwaterloo ca smale healthy uwaterloo ca \( bryan smale \) writes mvp biggest biggest suprise disappointment los angeles kings robitaille donnelly hrudey would chosen alex zhitnik biggest suprise expect would become great defenseman , n't think anyone knew going impressive rookie year speed , skating ability , puck control exceptional one watch kings kris kris assist uci edu go kings !
ching coyote wpi edu \( jay \) subject ncaa finals winner \? \? \? \? article bigboote distribution world organization worcester polytechnic institute lines 9 nntp posting host coyote wpi edu originator ching coyote wpi edu maine beat lssu 5 4 logistician reigns supreme ! ! ! go blue ! ! ! go tigers ! ! ! go pistons ! ! ! go lions ! ! ! go red wings ! ! ! ching wpi wpi edu
leibniz uwaterloo ca \( alfred yim \) subject they're ! ! ! ! ! keywords leafs chicago organization university waterloo lines 39 well , gotta tell ya , last night 's leafs game vs devils nail bitter let tell ! well played game teams \( thought \) according ron night leafs devils toronto well , beg differ imho , clark deserved first star much gilmour fast breaks towards net good created reminded clark old \( take credit away gilmour \) think leafs playing great hockey \? well first look injury list includes , cullen , , zezel , macoun course question leafs fare healthy playing well far \? \? second , look standings , still second defence , moved 11th overall 6th last month , n't lost home last 12 games , 8 game streak etc \( btw , wrong potvin 's first shut \? ca n't remember yet \) well , april 3 see race first norris truly begun close race chicago toronto best game season probably last \( anyone lucky enough tickets see one \? \) coming stretch still ! ! ! ! ! go leafs go ! ! ! ! alfred \( yong jeh \) yim toronto wins 4b mathematics \( actuarial science \) \( \? \) cup university waterloo , canada like coca cola idea personally e mail descartes waterloo edu
jake rambler eng sun com \( jason cockroft \) subject give blood tee shirts article jethro reply jake rambler eng sun com distribution world organization sun microsystems , inc lines 11 nntp posting host rambler eng sun com shirts believe bob probert line clothes whole shirt says give blood fight cool sound like cult classic someone post address phone store sells \? thanks , jake
subject ncaa finals winner \? \? \? \? miavx1 acs muohio edu organization miami university academic computer service lines 1 lake state maine finals \? please post
mweintr auvm american edu subject trade rumor montreal ottawa phillie article auvm 93095 organization american university university computing center lines 38 also slegge kean ucs mun ca tsn sportsdesk reported ottawa sun reported montreal send 4 players 15 million including vin damphousse brian bellows , phillie send eric lindros ottawa , ottawa give 's first round pick montreal true , likely depend whether ottawa gets choose 1st overall ottawa afford salary \? personally , ca n't see philli giving lindros anything n't give away much quebec trade away mention lindros seems huge draw phillie represents successful future franchise ottawa may better taking 4 players 15 montreal pick stephen legge slegge kean ucs munc ca two things 1 n't trade deadline pass two weeks ago \? 2 flyers would never ever ever give lindros , simple go flyers , cup '94 mike yes rush marillion genesis king crimson dream theater beatles mike , aka irc courageous convictions mweintr american edu drag dream jedi wave cerf net existence american university , washington dc rush \( limbaugh \) go philadelphia flyers , vancouver canucks philadelphia phillies
galvint cs nps navy mil \( thomas galvin \) subject , expansion organization naval postgraduate school , monterey lines 33 article idacom hp com andrew idacom hp com \( andrew scott \) writes article 1993apr2 nntpd2 cxo dec com nixdorf \( eric nixdorf \) writes looking way divisions aligned , six teams central \( norris \) pacific \( smyth \) divisions , seven teams northeast \( adams \) atlantic \( patrick \) divisions thought occurs inherent realignment expansion one team central division one team pacific division , although 've seen nothing published indicates actually , nhl expansion committee formed couple years back \( ottawa tampa bay expansion \) , john stated time nhl 's expansion plan grow 28 teams \( 7 per division \) turn century andrew scott andrew idacom hp com hp idacom telecom division \( 403 \) 462 0666 ext 253 roman era , 28 considered old last night sharks' broadcast , commissioner bettman interviewed first intermission made bones , expansion 28 permanent hold satisfied current 26 fully stable means cities looking club future wait one team location fails looks good , imo 's sense expanding means failing franchises mold tom galvin galvint taurus cs nps navy mil
subject nhl summary parse results games played sat , april 3 , 1993 c5ff jupiter sun csd unb ca \( cook charlie \) organization university new brunswick lines 373 tampa bay 1 1 0 2 philadelphia 3 2 1 6 first period 1 , philadelphia , carkner 3 \( unassisted \) 1 24 2 , philadelphia , hawgood 9 \( recchi , lindros \) pp , 5 56 3 , philadelphia , lindros 37 \( recchi , hawgood \) pp , 9 52 4 , tampa bay , beers 12 \( zamuner , chambers \) pp , 15 06 second period 5 , tampa bay , andersson 13 \( hamrlik , \) pp , 1 58 6 , philadelphia , conroy 3 \( butsayev , faust \) 12 10 7 , philadelphia , beranek 13 \( galley , hawgood \) pp , 18 53 third period 8 , philadelphia , recchi 51 \( brind'amour , galley \) pp , 17 56 philadelphia 6 power play 5 4 scorer g pts beranek 1 0 1 brind'amour 0 1 1 butsayev 0 1 1 carkner 1 0 1 conroy 1 0 1 faust 0 1 1 galley 0 2 2 hawgood 1 2 3 lindros 1 1 2 recchi 1 2 3 tampa bay 2 power play 7 2 scorer g pts andersson 1 0 1 beers 1 0 1 chambers 0 1 1 hamrlik 0 1 1 0 1 1 zamuner 0 1 1 vancouver 1 0 0 1 detroit 2 2 1 5 first period 1 , detroit , kozlov 4 \( fedorov , chiasson \) 5 20 2 , detroit , drake 17 \( ciccarelli , coffey \) pp , 7 48 3 , vancouver , ronning 24 \( , bure \) pp , 17 35 second period 4 , detroit , sheppard 30 \( drake , hiller \) 6 54 5 , detroit , ciccarelli 38 \( chiasson , drake \) pp , 12 13 third period 6 , detroit , ysebaert 31 \( fedorov , cheveldae \) sh , 4 59 detroit 5 power play 5 2 special goals pp 2 sh 1 total 3 scorer g pts cheveldae 0 1 1 chiasson 0 2 2 ciccarelli 1 1 2 coffey 0 1 1 drake 1 2 3 fedorov 0 2 2 hiller 0 1 1 kozlov 1 0 1 sheppard 1 0 1 ysebaert 1 0 1 vancouver 1 power play 6 1 scorer g pts bure 0 1 1 ronning 1 0 1 0 1 1 buffalo 1 1 0 2 boston 1 1 1 3 first period 1 , buffalo , audette 12 \( corkum , wood \) 16 40 2 , boston , juneau 30 \( neely , oates \) 18 39 second period 3 , buffalo , errey 9 \( lafontaine , khmylev \) 10 51 4 , boston , douris 3 \( sweeney , bourque \) 17 57 third period 5 , boston , donato 12 \( unassisted \) 17 42 boston 3 power play 4 0 scorer g pts bourque 0 1 1 donato 1 0 1 douris 1 0 1 juneau 1 0 1 neely 0 1 1 oates 0 1 1 sweeney 0 1 1 buffalo 2 power play 5 0 scorer g pts audette 1 0 1 corkum 0 1 1 errey 1 0 1 khmylev 0 1 1 lafontaine 0 1 1 wood 0 1 1 calgary 1 1 0 1 3 san jose 0 2 0 0 2 first period 1 , calgary , suter 21 \( reichel , macinnis \) pp , 17 47 second period 2 , san jose , zmolek 5 \( odgers , evason \) 3 03 3 , san jose , kisio 24 \( garpenlov , gaudreau \) pp , 7 23 4 , calgary , lindberg 9 \( macinnis \) pp , 12 43 third period scoring overtime 5 , calgary , fleury 31 \( otto , yawney \) 3 06 calgary 3 power play 8 2 scorer g pts fleury 1 0 1 lindberg 1 0 1 macinnis 0 2 2 otto 0 1 1 reichel 0 1 1 suter 1 0 1 yawney 0 1 1 san jose 2 power play 9 1 scorer g pts evason 0 1 1 garpenlov 0 1 1 gaudreau 0 1 1 kisio 1 0 1 odgers 0 1 1 zmolek 1 0 1 pittsburgh 0 3 2 5 quebec 2 1 0 3 first period 1 , quebec , kamensky 15 \( huffman \) 6 05 2 , quebec , young 27 \( lapointe , huffman \) 16 52 second period 3 , pittsburgh , mullen 29 \( lemieux , murphy \) 3 54 4 , pittsburgh , lemieux 60 \( tocchet , u samuelsson \) 5 07 5 , pittsburgh , lemieux 61 \( tocchet , stevens \) 8 12 6 , quebec , young 28 \( sundin , kovalenko \) pp , 14 52 third period 7 , pittsburgh , tippett 4 \( unassisted \) sh , 3 52 8 , pittsburgh , tippett 5 \( mceachern , mullen \) 8 25 pittsburgh 5 power play 1 0 special goals sh 1 total 1 scorer g pts lemieux 2 1 3 mceachern 0 1 1 mullen 1 1 2 murphy 0 1 1 samuelsson u 0 1 1 stevens 0 1 1 tippett 2 0 2 tocchet 0 2 2 quebec 3 power play 4 1 scorer g pts huffman 0 2 2 kamensky 1 0 1 kovalenko 0 1 1 lapointe 0 1 1 sundin 0 1 1 young 2 0 2 new jersey 0 0 0 0 toronto 0 0 1 1 first period scoring second period scoring third period 1 , toronto , gilmour 32 \( andreychuk , anderson \) 16 22 toronto 1 power play 5 0 scorer g pts anderson 0 1 1 andreychuk 0 1 1 gilmour 1 0 1 new jersey 0 power play 3 0 scoring ottawa 1 0 2 3 hartford 5 1 1 7 first period 1 , ottawa , maciver 17 \( baker , \) 4 22 2 , hartford , kron 11 \( nylander , gosselin \) 5 13 3 , hartford , burt 4 \( cassels , verbeek \) 7 59 4 , hartford , cunneyworth 4 \( yake , nylander \) 9 59 5 , hartford , sanderson 42 \( cassels , houda \) 11 11 6 , hartford , verbeek 35 \( cassels , zalapski \) pp , 15 50 second period 7 , hartford , sanderson 43 \( cassels , zalapski \) pp , 18 38 third period 8 , hartford , kron 12 \( poulin , burt \) 4 57 9 , ottawa , turgeon 23 \( lamb \) 8 57 10 , ottawa , baker 17 \( , maciver \) pp , 16 17 hartford 7 power play 3 2 scorer g pts burt 1 1 2 cassels 0 4 4 cunneyworth 1 0 1 gosselin 0 1 1 houda 0 1 1 kron 2 0 2 nylander 0 2 2 poulin 0 1 1 sanderson 2 0 2 verbeek 1 1 2 yake 0 1 1 zalapski 0 2 2 ottawa 3 power play 7 1 scorer g pts baker 1 1 2 lamb 0 1 1 0 2 2 maciver 1 1 2 turgeon 1 0 1 winnipeg 1 3 2 6 edmonton 1 0 3 4 first period 1 , winnipeg , tkachuk 27 \( housley , zhamnov \) pp , 14 38 2 , edmonton , klima 31 \( ciger , elik \) 16 05 second period 3 , winnipeg , king 8 \( unassisted \) 3 54 4 , winnipeg , zhamnov 21 \( selanne \) 10 25 5 , winnipeg , domi 5 \( selanne , housley \) 18 44 third period 6 , edmonton , manson 15 \( unassisted \) 10 58 7 , winnipeg , eagles 8 \( numminen , bautin \) pp , 14 13 8 , winnipeg , zhamnov 22 \( ulanov , selanne \) 15 27 9 , edmonton , gelinas 8 \( kravchuk , ranford \) 16 48 10 , edmonton , kravchuk 10 \( buchberger \) 18 42 winnipeg 6 power play 5 2 scorer g pts bautin 0 1 1 domi 1 0 1 eagles 1 0 1 housley 0 2 2 king 1 0 1 numminen 0 1 1 selanne 0 3 3 tkachuk 1 0 1 ulanov 0 1 1 zhamnov 2 1 3 edmonton 4 power play 3 0 scorer g pts buchberger 0 1 1 ciger 0 1 1 elik 0 1 1 gelinas 1 0 1 klima 1 0 1 kravchuk 1 1 2 manson 1 0 1 ranford 0 1 1 chicago 0 3 0 0 3 st louis 1 2 0 0 3 first period 1 , st louis , shanahan 46 \( janney , hull \) pp , 4 09 second period 2 , chicago , murphy 4 \( chelios , roenick \) pp , 0 50 3 , st louis , shanahan 47 \( hedican , janney \) 1 18 4 , chicago , noonan 16 \( murphy , chelios \) pp , 5 24 5 , st louis , bozon 6 , ps , 12 13 6 , chicago , roenick 43 \( sutter , murphy \) pp , 18 39 third period scoring overtime scoring st louis 3 power play 4 1 special goals pp 1 ps 1 total 2 scorer g pts bozon 1 0 1 chelios 0 1 1 hedican 0 1 1 hull 0 1 1 janney 0 2 2 murphy 0 1 1 shanahan 2 0 2 chicago 3 power play 3 3 scorer g pts chelios 0 2 2 murphy 1 2 3 noonan 1 0 1 roenick 1 1 2 sutter 0 1 1 montreal 0 1 2 3 ny islanders 0 2 0 2 first period scoring second period 1 , montreal , brunet 10 \( carbonneau , \) 4 39 2 , ny islanders , turgeon 51 \( thomas , \) pp , 9 14 3 , ny islanders , mullen 16 \( unassisted \) 15 13 third period 4 , montreal , bellows 38 \( desjardins , dipietro \) 3 01 5 , montreal , damphousse 38 \( desjardins , bellows \) pp , 10 11 montreal 3 power play 5 1 scorer g pts bellows 1 1 2 brunet 1 0 1 carbonneau 0 1 1 0 1 1 damphousse 1 0 1 desjardins 0 2 2 dipietro 0 1 1 ny islanders 2 power play 5 1 scorer g pts 0 1 1 mullen 1 0 1 thomas 0 1 1 turgeon 1 0 1 minnesota 2 1 0 3 los angeles 0 0 0 0 first period 1 , minnesota , dahlen 33 \( unassisted \) 2 34 2 , minnesota , courtnall 33 \( dahlen , modano \) pp , 9 30 second period 3 , minnesota , mcphee 14 \( sjodin , hatcher \) pp , 7 24 third period scoring minnesota 3 power play 11 2 scorer g pts courtnall 1 0 1 dahlen 1 1 2 hatcher 0 1 1 mcphee 1 0 1 modano 0 1 1 sjodin 0 1 1 los angeles 0 power play 5 0 scoring
subject nhl summary parse results games played sun , april 4 , 1993 c5ff jupiter sun csd unb ca \( cook charlie \) organization university new brunswick lines 210 ny rangers 3 1 0 4 washington 0 0 0 0 first period 1 , ny rangers , graves 33 \( turcotte , lowe \) 9 13 2 , ny rangers , gartner 44 \( messier \) 11 21 3 , ny rangers , olczyk 21 \( messier , amonte \) 14 57 second period 4 , ny rangers , 2 \( unassisted \) 3 30 third period scoring ny rangers 4 power play 4 0 scorer g pts amonte 0 1 1 1 0 1 gartner 1 0 1 graves 1 0 1 lowe 0 1 1 messier 0 2 2 olczyk 1 0 1 turcotte 0 1 1 washington 0 power play 3 0 scoring boston 0 2 1 3 buffalo 0 0 0 0 first period scoring second period 1 , boston , leach 24 \( wesley , oates \) pp , 1 03 2 , boston , oates 44 \( douris , poulin \) 9 00 third period 3 , boston , douris 4 \( bourque \) sh , 0 55 boston 3 power play 5 1 special goals pp 1 sh 1 total 2 scorer g pts bourque 0 1 1 douris 1 1 2 leach 1 0 1 oates 1 1 2 poulin 0 1 1 wesley 0 1 1 buffalo 0 power play 6 0 scoring pittsburgh 1 3 1 5 new jersey 0 1 1 2 first period 1 , pittsburgh , francis 23 \( lemieux , tocchet \) pp , 13 25 second period 2 , pittsburgh , murphy 21 \( francis , mullen \) sh , 0 38 3 , pittsburgh , francis 24 \( tocchet , lemieux \) pp , 7 14 4 , pittsburgh , jagr 33 \( tocchet , francis \) pp , 15 22 5 , new jersey , zelepukin 17 \( driver , lemieux \) pp , 19 07 third period 6 , new jersey , maclean 23 \( nicholls , stevens \) 6 45 7 , pittsburgh , lemieux 62 \( jagr \) en , 19 51 pittsburgh 5 power play 9 3 special goals pp 3 sh 1 en 1 total 5 scorer g pts francis 2 2 4 jagr 1 1 2 lemieux 1 2 3 mullen 0 1 1 murphy 1 0 1 tocchet 0 3 3 new jersey 2 power play 9 1 scorer g pts driver 0 1 1 lemieux 0 1 1 maclean 1 0 1 nicholls 0 1 1 stevens 0 1 1 zelepukin 1 0 1 toronto 0 0 0 0 philadelphia 2 1 1 4 first period 1 , philadelphia , dineen 31 \( beranek , hawgood \) 8 10 2 , philadelphia , mcgill 3 \( lindros , recchi \) 19 55 second period 3 , philadelphia , lindros 38 \( recchi , galley \) 7 55 third period 4 , philadelphia , dineen 32 \( hawgood , galley \) pp , 18 39 philadelphia 4 power play 4 1 scorer g pts beranek 0 1 1 dineen 2 0 2 galley 0 2 2 hawgood 0 2 2 lindros 1 1 2 mcgill 1 0 1 recchi 0 2 2 toronto 0 power play 6 0 scoring vancouver 0 2 1 3 ottawa 0 0 0 0 first period scoring second period 1 , vancouver , 6 \( craven \) 13 05 2 , vancouver , momesso 17 \( nedved , \) pp , 15 52 third period 3 , vancouver , bure 57 \( unassisted \) 13 27 vancouver 3 power play 4 1 scorer g pts bure 1 0 1 craven 0 1 1 momesso 1 0 1 nedved 0 1 1 1 1 2 ottawa 0 power play 5 0 scoring st louis 2 0 2 4 chicago 4 0 1 5 first period 1 , chicago , sutter 18 \( murphy , chelios \) pp , 1 08 2 , st louis , janney 20 \( shanahan , j brown \) pp , 6 49 3 , chicago , roenick 44 \( chelios , smith \) pp , 8 20 4 , chicago , roenick 45 \( sutter , chelios \) pp , 13 14 5 , chicago , graham 19 \( gilbert , ruuttu \) 13 42 6 , st louis , janney 21 \( shanahan , \) 19 38 second period scoring third period 7 , chicago , murphy 5 \( chelios , belfour \) 0 20 8 , st louis , miller 21 \( hull , janney \) pp , 7 04 9 , st louis , janney 22 \( miller , shanahan \) 19 32 chicago 5 power play 8 3 scorer g pts belfour 0 1 1 chelios 0 4 4 gilbert 0 1 1 graham 1 0 1 murphy 1 1 2 roenick 2 0 2 ruuttu 0 1 1 smith 0 1 1 sutter 1 1 2 st louis 4 power play 4 2 scorer g pts brown j 0 1 1 0 1 1 hull 0 1 1 janney 3 1 4 miller 1 1 2 shanahan 0 3 3 calgary 1 2 1 4 san jose 1 0 2 3 first period 1 , calgary , otto 19 \( yawney , ashton \) pp , 5 29 2 , san jose , odgers 10 \( pederson , wilkinson \) 18 33 second period 3 , calgary , nieuwendyk 34 \( johansson , reese \) 2 03 4 , calgary , reichel 35 \( skrudland , berube \) 12 22 third period 5 , calgary , ashton 7 \( otto , fleury \) 1 30 6 , san jose , pederson 9 \( odgers , evason \) 2 24 7 , san jose , odgers 11 \( gaudreau , evason \) pp , 19 30 calgary 4 power play 5 1 scorer g pts ashton 1 1 2 berube 0 1 1 fleury 0 1 1 johansson 0 1 1 nieuwendyk 1 0 1 otto 1 1 2 reese 0 1 1 reichel 1 0 1 skrudland 0 1 1 yawney 0 1 1 san jose 3 power play 5 1 scorer g pts evason 0 2 2 gaudreau 0 1 1 odgers 2 1 3 pederson 1 1 2 wilkinson 0 1 1
justin r andrew cmu edu subject playoff predictions organization freshman , im mcs cit track , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 26 nntp posting host po4 andrew cmu edu reply 1993apr04 rose com b \( stanley cup champion vancouver canucks sorry , pittsburgh walk jack first , penguins win cup going stop \? definitely canucks ! predictions patrick division winner pittsburgh adams division winner quebec montreal norris division winner detroit smythe division winner winnipeg wales conference champ pittsburgh campbell conference champ detroit stanley cup champions \( \) pittsburgh canucks suck 'll lose first round , compliments winnipeg teemu selanne pens almost unstoppable mario lemieux
uicvm uic edu subject coloured puck \( changes noted yet ! \) article uicvm 93095 organization university illinois chicago , academic computer center lines 15 article 1993apr5 bnr ca , dwarf bcarh601 bnr ca \( w jim jordan \) says precedent set wha first season used red puck exhibition games blue one regular season thankfully , abandoned favour black next season began one reason wha abandoned blue puck fact quickly play blue dye used somehow affected rubber puck , decreasing terry uicvm uic edu
mlindroos finabo abo fi \( marcus lindroos inf \) subject wc pool b gb win gold reply golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca 's message mon , 5 apr 1993 13 03 17 gmt organization abo akademi university , finland x news reader vms news 1 24 lines 30 1993apr5 alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca writes article zaphod axion bt co uk nmcglynn axion bt co uk writes gb risen nowhere pool 5 seasons pulled world championships 1981 , enter 1989 took part pool 1990 , hosted pool game progress pool c 1991 gb finished 5th pool c , last year hosted pool c , winning games pool b , gb 7 games pool world champions next year perhaps \) goes show using canadians hockey team france , italy , great britain use significant number canadians hockey teams yup , lots foreign born players canadian national soccer team brits give something back end \) record , former ny rangers coach ted darth recently led lion milan \( jari kurri 's former team , nickname 's changed devils lion \) second straight italian championship made european final four last autumn losing swedish champs malmo semis accomplished feat using fifteen canadian born players ! ! mamma mia ! marcu gerald
gtd597a prism gatech edu \( hrivnak \) subject year 's biggest worst \( opinion \) keywords nhl , awards article hydra organization georgia institute technology lines 19 article ccu umanitoba ca umturne4 ccu umanitoba ca \( daryl turner \) writes , even washington might consider patty bust , 'd trade minute druce complete utter bust , 5 goals well , druce pretty much sucked caps one good playoffs \( season \) oh well caps notorious making stupid trades anyway , seen hrivnak trades sigh another note 'd say caps biggest surprise cote , many caps fans expecting lot bondra already go skins ! next question emotional music quite go braves ! effect \? mike patton , faith go hornets ! go capitals ! mike friedman \( hrivnak fan ! \) internet gtd597a prism gatech edu
subject canadian silver dollar stanley cup hammerl acsu buffalo edu \( valerie hammerl \) organization ub nntp posting host lictor acsu buffalo edu lines 19 hi according always questionable newspaper , 's silver dollar minted canada , back anniversary stanley cup , know full well coins used every day canada easily fish pocket change right , fact question , since loon dollar coin know legal tender , commemorative coin monetary exchange value , \? sort thing hockey buffs coin collectors might , chance circulated \? coin , 's current cost 's potential value \? curious one knows , 'll take soc culture canada rec collecting \( whatever \) thanks valerie hammerl days remind 's hammerl acsu buffalo edu mario lemieux herb brooks claude acscvjh ubms cc buffalo edu lemieux , top scorer devils , v085pwwpz ubvms cc buffalo edu known taking dumb penalties
maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) subject superstars attendance \( teemu selanne , leaders \) organization dept computer science , laurentian university , sudbury , distribution na lines 62 1993apr5 ists ists ca dchhabra stpl ists ca \( deepak chhabra \) writes dean j \( posting 8 pitt edu \) writes think reason lemieux 168 point season first non gretzky win hart ross since 1980 people turned watch play grant star like mario draw fans , even team sucks short term still think attendance increase last , unless team winning competitive improving butt kicking one pittsburgh still getting better , people continued support suddenly dropped , say , 50 points , 'd knee surgery people jumping bandwagon disagree mcnall demonstrated gretzky star brings crowds whether team expected well fans real expect kings well year \( although \) yet still go see gretzky marketing strategy selling game selling stars employed baseball , notably , nba attitude new bettman mcnall leadership bringing league gone record stating trying sell game stars timo salami brett hull perfect examples players real fans know n't worth damn yet , marketing oriented coaching strategies , goal totals would indicate casual observer , fans nhl wants attract , players indeed superstars made transaction try build winner around mario , true improvement attendance came started \( coffey late 1987 \) even playoff bound team doubling attendance occured 1984 85 previous year increase 38 points 53 points going arrival mario lemieux might help think would go fan 's mind suddenly found interest mario pens gee , mario lemieux amazing , 'll go watch play , gee , 've got kick ass guy side , 'll go watch play think latter ai n't nearly simple casual fan n't think much actually find adult 3 digit iq believes mcdonalds makes good hamburgers \? provide example rocket ismail toronto cfl leave n't know much cfl \? 's case fair enough , n't case i'm curious hear explanation yes apparently rocket lived marketing \? hyped , initially , superstar , outside one grey cup game done little maintain enhance assess ment talents fans probably feel team would better without cordially , always , rm roger maynard maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca
r turgeo oz plymouth edu \( randy turgeon \) subject ottawa montreal philly trade article oz 1993apr6 reply r turgeo oz plymouth edu \( randy turgeon \) organization plymouth state college plymouth , n h lines 13 go idiot posted gretzky trade toronto \? \? \? \? ! waited got one garbage , maybe would believed half second \( ! \) way , heard mother goose mario lemieux traded tie domi ! ! ! ! ! randy psc \( know noone heard , 's tiny college new hampshire plymouth state college \)
maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) subject nhl team leaders organization dept computer science , laurentian university , sudbury , lines 66 1993apr5 ists ists ca dchhabra stpl ists ca \( deepak chhabra \) writes implicitly assuming goals scored winnipeg selanne ice blamed roger , forward winnipeg lousy defensive record anyway let 's put another way john cullen 's terrible 's excuse \? powerplay points n't count \? neither selanne 's comparing cullen salami \? would say valid winnipeg lousy defensive team hell salami stand around team 's blueline puck end \? object game feed selanne win feeding selanne contribute meaningful way winning knowledgeable hockey observers world would agree feeding selanne score contribute meaningful way winning excuse \? jets playing 500 hockey \? let check yes barely allowed goals scored sounds awful lot like salami 's sounds like would well better played solid two way game friends finland claim capable would n't league lead goals would \? bi planes might challenging first however 're worried teemu glenn anderson team \? let 's see compared timo anderson cullen 's next \? mike foligno \? know selanne best know jet 's management wants , object exercise allow selanne best , win hockey games best score refer comment finnish friends watched play claim play solid two way game would say style contribution would conducive winning n't think \? , selanne goal suck see way parades around arms scoring goal \? would think messiah returned nope , n't see busy watching foligno jump goal n't believe ! compare foligno ! \( honestly n't read far \) would help used little discrimination thinking contributions would highly valued could see n't trying merely cordially , always , rm roger maynard maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca
dchhabra stpl ists ca \( deepak chhabra \) subject memoriam dan kelly danny gallivan nntp posting host stpl ists ca organization solar terresterial physics laboratory , ists distribution na lines 27 article burke 1 nd edu burke 1 nd edu \( r p burke \) writes talking hockey broadcasters , let 's give moment silence remember st louis blues' great , dan kelly \( many may heard late 60s early 70s cbs \) used hockey night canada , another recently deceased great , danny gallivan canadiens agreed 'll never forget dan kelly calling play play '87 canada cup ! danny gallivan never replaced even watch remember voice see al macinnis al iafrate \( hey , 's guys named al shoot \? \? \) shot point still think blast tribute gallivan issue following death story included quote one games went appears risebrough construed check , said , undoubtedly make visitation box classic , vintage gallivan ! 's sorely missed 's two best best ever dchhabra stpl ists ca
smale healthy uwaterloo ca \( bryan smale \) subject year 's biggest worst \( opinion \) keywords nhl , awards organization university waterloo lines 55 thinking teams mvps , biggest surprises , biggest year , observations admittedly lacking opportunity see teams amount anyway mvp valuable player team terms points terms leadership \( ca n't win without \) biggest surprise player rose expectation player may raised level game new height , even new level n't necessarily warrant berth \( includes players outset season , may even team 's plans \) biggest disappointment player expected \( e g , picked denis savard montreal new emphasis offence brought demers , n't savard done better \? \) team biggest biggest team mvp surprise disappointment boston bruins oates sweeney wesley buffalo sabres lafontaine mogilny audette \( jinx \? \) calgary flames roberts reichel petit chicago blackhawks roenick ruuttu goulet detroit red wings yzerman chaisson kozlov edmonton oilers manson buchberger mellanby hartford whalers sanderson corriveau los angeles kings robitaille donnelly hrudey minnesota north stars modano tinordi \( expected back \) broten montreal canadiens muller lebeau savard new jersey devils stevens semak maclean new york islanders turgeon king \( finally \) marois new york rangers messier kovalev bourque ottawa senators maciver baker jelinek philadelphia flyers lindros recchi fedyk galley eklund pittsburgh penguins lemieux tocchet \( even \) jagr quebec nordiques sakic ricci kovalenko pearson san jose sharks kisio gaudreau maley st louis blues shanahan c joseph ron sutter tampa bay lightening bradley bradley creighton kasper toronto maple leafs gilmour potvin ellett anderson vancouver canucks bure nedved \( finally \) momesso washington capitals hatcher bondra cote elynuik winnipeg jets selanne selanne druce mentioned top , impressions sit would welcome opinions fans nearer teams \( words , anywhere away toronto newspaper ! \) bryan
eng cam ac uk \( c yap \) subject year 's biggest worst \( opinion \) keywords nhl , awards organization cam eng lines 12 nntp posting host club eng cam ac uk smale healthy uwaterloo ca \( bryan smale \) writes team biggest biggest team mvp surprise disappointment washington capitals hatcher bondra cote elynuik winnipeg jets selanne selanne druce n't two traded \? poetic justice
shoe physics watstar uwaterloo ca \( mark \) subject let 's talk sticks lines 35 organization university waterloo article odin corp sgi com endor corp sgi com \( tom arnold \) writes okay hockey playing fans i'm looking wide range aluminum sticks first time 've playing pieces lumbar seem weigh alot break uses , i'm thinking changing aluminum shaft break blade change problem wide models selections i'm certain consider post suggestions experiences aluminum sticks \? difference models \? like dislike \? , brands best \? 've , still aluminum sticks got first 15 \( christian \) , broke shaft halfway season , two years later bought another \( canadian \) beginning next season , still also , friend getting rid , giving game find blades easier get , brands blades pretty well interchangeable watch dried bits , stores pass blades experiences , blades aluminum break often regular sticks , 've ever broken one aluminum shaft like aluminum sticks blades quickly changed , even bench downside , shaft wo n't break decide \) ciao , mark vegetable rick little shop horrors mark shoe physics watstar uwaterloo ca
andrew idacom hp com \( andrew scott \) subject year 's biggest worst \( opinion \) organization idacom , division hewlett packard keywords nhl , awards lines 35 article c4zcii ftn watserv1 uwaterloo ca smale healthy uwaterloo ca \( bryan smale \) writes thinking teams mvps , biggest surprises , biggest year , observations admittedly lacking opportunity see teams amount anyway team mvp surprise disappointment edmonton oilers manson buchberger mellanby well , since oilers n't win heck lot games , i'm sure deserve mvp \( ca n't win without \) however , 'd suggest kelly buchberger instead dave manson , brutal year , pick star game notwithstanding biggest surprise , 'd say buchberger higher expectations year due breakthrough year \( \) last year , n't really raise game suggestion would podein , one cape breton year quite far depth chart oilers stable prospects , made big impact team 12 goals 33 games 1 decent numbers third line player seemingly doomed minor league oblivion oilers coaching staff style john tonelli think 'll full time roster next year biggest disappointment , could name players oilers dumped lousy production year \( nicholls , gilchrist , tikkanen \) even shayne corson , mellanby n't far andrew scott andrew idacom hp com hp idacom telecom division \( 403 \) 462 0666 ext 253 roman era , 28 considered old
dchhabra stpl ists ca \( deepak chhabra \) subject potvin 's new goalie mask nntp posting host stpl ists ca organization solar terresterial physics laboratory , ists distribution na lines 38 stephen legge \( slegge kean ucs munc ca \) writes right guard hockey week tsn yesterday feature guy lot \( \? \) masks nhl goalies talked made , made , designs put , etc actually , part really interesting turns mask custom fit goalie 's face goalie puts face piece wood \( plastic \? \) hole allows face forehead show hair covered cap , eyes covered plastic wrap type material , vaseline put goaltender 's face , plaster spread , forehead , chin takes 12 minutes dry sufficiently dries , effectively mold goalie 's face used basis mask \( rest involves padding inside , exterior , fitting cage , etc etc john blue bruins actually demonstrated procedure show exhibited couple masks currently working , namely , new mask andy moog basic working current mask bear , new mask bob essensa really cool jets logo chin , two fighter jets either side forehead air brushed back ground yeah , essensa 's mask looked really good best one one never talked , held current leafs crest chin awesome looking black panther forehead new mask felix potvin , never said whose actually , thought heard say potvin 's certain would bet money either way look awesome ! dchhabra stpl ists ca
mjr4u virginia edu \( matthew j rush \) subject ncaa finals winner \? \? \? \? organization university virginia lines 4 miavx1 acs muohio edu writes lake state maine finals \? please post maine 5 4
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject year 's biggest worst \( opinion \) keywords nhl , awards organization university toronto chemistry department lines 60 article c4zcii ftn watserv1 uwaterloo ca smale healthy uwaterloo ca \( bryan smale \) writes team biggest biggest team mvp surprise disappointment boston bruins oates sweeney wesley buffalo sabres lafontaine mogilny audette \( jinx \? \) calgary flames roberts reichel petit chicago blackhawks roenick ruuttu goulet chelios far mvp chicago detroit red wings yzerman chaisson kozlov edmonton oilers manson buchberger mellanby manson , admission , terrible year oilers n't really team mvp default , go craig podein biggest surprise tikkanen biggest disappointment hartford whalers sanderson corriveau los angeles kings robitaille donnelly hrudey minnesota north stars modano tinordi \( expected back \) broten tinordi back mid season last year plays mvp montreal canadiens muller lebeau savard new jersey devils stevens semak maclean new york islanders turgeon king \( finally \) marois king great year last year also new york rangers messier kovalev bourque kovalev surprise \? ottawa senators maciver baker jelinek philadelphia flyers lindros recchi fedyk galley eklund fence sitting look philly 's record eric without doubt soderstrom probably biggest surprise pittsburgh penguins lemieux tocchet \( even \) jagr tocchet near 100 point season philly mike bullard center n't able mario \? quebec nordiques sakic ricci kovalenko pearson san jose sharks kisio gaudreau maley st louis blues shanahan c joseph ron sutter really joseph deserves mvp nod tampa bay lightening bradley bradley creighton kasper toronto maple leafs gilmour potvin ellett anderson vancouver canucks bure nedved \( finally \) momesso washington capitals hatcher bondra cote elynuik winnipeg jets selanne selanne druce gerald
vax1 edu \( vax1 edu \( scott h \) , u tulsa \) subject doubters \? hmm \? organization university tulsa lines 28 article 1993apr4 ramsey cs laurentian ca , maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) writes leafs make cream cheese philadelphia side tomorrow night leafs without equal leafs best team campbell conference cordially , always , rm roger maynard maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca like philadelphia making dust dead leafs roger continue predictions \? got whitewashed last place team granted philly pretty decent best team cambell conference would beaten last place team scott e humphrey , chemical engineering , university tulsa vax1 edu bruins cup ! ! ! opinions expressed individual , u tulsa
dchhabra stpl ists ca \( deepak chhabra \) subject cherry 's coach 's corner summary april 3 , 1993 nntp posting host stpl ists ca organization solar terresterial physics laboratory , ists distribution na lines 53 allan cs ualberta ca \( allan sullivan \) writes begin cherry , let first say 've sort cherry fan admittedly stuff says taken lightly , 's less harmless saturday , however , crossed lines good taste according , entire article n't perfect , frank musil alpo suhonen noted musil n't much player \( n't score many goals last year \) also made fun names one guy name like dog food , like \( meta musil \) best \? ! ! gee , tremendous amounts professionalism cbc looks bad looks foolish letting get away nonsense making fun names \? \? 's bad enough makes blanket statements european players , 's resorted making fun names \? sounded like idiot , much like last week said teemu would never make 'em , sock video dropped gloves subject realignment , said liked new division names well , said even though 's around league quite time , still n't know 's w r conference division names hello \? \? ! ! \? \? names around couple decades also invited audience name teams wales quick , quick ! followed ah , n't know , n't know sorry wrong one ron \( \) n't know wy like show 30 minutes hardly stand show 5 absolutely hilarious 's argument basketball baseball fairly good unfortunately neglected mention fines levelled nba case serious money oh well , 's never one objectivity , \? 's question gretzky would n't better change friends like game , us change game friends \? liked
slegge kean ucs mun ca subject trade rumor montreal ottawa phillie lines 20 organization memorial university st john 's nfld , canada tsn sportsdesk reported ottawa sun reported montreal send 4 players 15 million including vin damphousse brian bellows , phillie send eric lindros ottawa , ottawa give 's first round pick montreal true , likely depend whether ottawa gets choose 1st overall ottawa afford salary \? personally , ca n't see philli giving lindros anything n't give away much quebec trade away mention lindros seems huge draw phillie represents successful future franchise ottawa may better taking 4 players 15 montreal pick stephen legge slegge kean ucs munc ca
darling cellar org \( thomas darling \) subject doubters \? hmm \? organization cellar bbs public access system lines 18 jason studsys mscs mu edu \( jason hanson \) writes article 1993apr4 ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs leafs make cream cheese philadelphia side tomorrow night leafs without equal , maybe put mildly watched flyers demolish toronto last night , 4 0 , realized matter good 1 line may , 'll need one two decent lines go far playoffs , course , healthy felix potvin thomas darling cellar bbs public access system 215 539 3043 darling cellar org genie darling truth thru technology v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v
darling cellar org \( thomas darling \) subject good hockey bad hockey organization cellar bbs public access system lines 17 jmd cbnewsm cb att com \( joseph dakes \) writes article dev null phys psu edu , stimpy dev null phys psu edu article constellation ecn uoknor edu mfoster alliant prefer miami colons headline flames blow colons , 9 1 would kevin dineen play miami colons \? \? \? flyers fan , resent making kevin dineen butt jokes \) ! aw , take moment digest i'm sure 'll see humour thomas darling cellar bbs public access system 215 539 3043 darling cellar org genie darling truth thru technology v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v
umturne4 ccu umanitoba ca \( daryl turner \) subject year 's biggest worst \( opinion \) keywords nhl , awards nntp posting host gibson cc umanitoba ca organization university manitoba , winnipeg , manitoba , canada lines 24 article 1993apr5 eng cam ac uk eng cam ac uk \( c yap \) writes smale healthy uwaterloo ca \( bryan smale \) writes team biggest biggest team mvp surprise disappointment washington capitals hatcher bondra cote elynuik winnipeg jets selanne selanne druce n't two traded \? poetic justice , even washington might consider patty bust , 'd trade minute druce complete utter bust , 5 goals daryl turner r h contact winnipeg jets internet umturne4 ccu umanitoba ca fidonet 1 348 701 1 348 4 \( please route 348 700 \) tkachuk zhamnov , sel nne , shoots , scores ! jets win cup ! jets win cup ! essensa vezina ! housley norris ! sel nne calder !
mac18 po cwru edu \( michael cornell \) subject hey flyers fans ! article usenet reply mac18 po cwru edu \( michael cornell \) organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 23 nntp posting host slc12 ins cwru edu ever notice many people net trouble easy task spelling nick name fair city \? never knew philadelphia becomes phillie philli spoken n't know yet 's little clue spelled p h l l ok thank oh yeah , drug induced trade rumor n't think stupid rumor looking mike keenan coming back coach flyers later mike mike cornell great many people country today , mac18 po cwru edu fault , sane monty python let 's go flyers ! stanley cup '94 ! oh ! brain hurts ! mr p gumby
seth cbnewsh cb att com \( peter r clark jr \) subject adams division race article cbnewsh 1993apr5 distribution na organization lines 21 article 1993apr2 thunder mcrcim mcgill edu , breton mcrcim mcgill edu \( pierre breton \) writes adams division race certainly interesting year important data keep mind tie given standing position head head games quebec wins montreal , 4 3 0 boston leads quebec , 3 1 1 two games remaining montreal boston tied , 4 4 0 one game remaining \( \) pierre breton \( aka glacial \) pierre , purposes tie breaker , count first three games city therefore , quebec cannot possibly ahead montreal 4 3 , 's probably one game counts remaining boston quebec , means boston probably already pete clark rsh flyers contact
pereira cam org \( dean pereira \) subject canadiens another stanley cup \? \? \? organization regional college , st lambert qc canada lines 12 kind team montreal , take cup easily problem right everyone trying steal show play alone need massive teamwork also little slump long time hockey montreal canadiens announcer claude died last tuesday rough everybody worked organization 21 years know excuse habs manage get good teamwork get spirit , problem winning may dean
netlink cts com \( walter \) subject doubters \? hmm \? article netlink organization netlink online communications , san diego ca lines 7 blackhawks shall triumph walter weather likes , net link armored division netlink cts com world gambling velocity cut ups
rauser fraser sfu ca \( richard john rauser \) subject canadiens another stanley cup \? \? \? organization simon fraser university , burnaby , b c , canada lines 25 pereira cam org \( dean pereira \) writes kind team montreal , take cup easily problem right everyone trying steal show play alone need massive teamwork also little slump long time hockey montreal canadiens announcer claude died last tuesday rough everybody worked organization 21 years know excuse habs manage get good teamwork get spirit , problem winning may agree also think roy needs good kick sometimes horrible 4 0 loss capitals last week ! 's cup 23 year ! richard j rauser idea 're rauser sfu ca oh , n't worry 're professional wni outlaws living remember , matter go , dr banzai
rauser fraser sfu ca \( richard john rauser \) subject many europeans nhl organization simon fraser university , burnaby , b c , canada lines 50 ten years ago , number europeans nhl roughly quarter going 1992 93 season , numbers euros nhl teams escalated following stats canadians 400 americans 100 europeans 100 please note numbers rounded , taken top 25 players 24 teams source vancouver sun 's point far many europeans nhl sick watching game american canadian team \( let 's say , red wings canucks \) seeing names like bure konstantinov borshevshky north america n't \? toronto , detriot , quebec , edmonton particularly annoying , numbers euros teams getting worse well live vancouver hear one word pavel bure , russian rocket completely throw , every time see canucks play keep hoping someone cross check bure hard carry stretcher \( way , i'm canucks fan begin \) okay , stretcher remark little carried away point resent nhl owners drafting europeans instead canadians \( americans \) denies young canadians opportunity play north american league instead gives europeans , n't even better hockey players 's hype european mystique sickening , nhl owners get , canadian american players continue fight harder get drafted league numbers euros nhl escalating , problem clearly getting worse i'm creation european hockey league , let bures selannes world play continent n't want mine richard j rauser idea 're rauser sfu ca oh , n't worry 're professional wni outlaws living remember , matter go , dr banzai
shadow r node hub org \( jay chu \) subject lindros traded ! ! ! organization lindros traded ! summary babe lindros going ottawa ! lines 14 true rumor fact ! big three way deal ! eric lindros going ottawa senators senators get montreal montreal gets alexander daigle \( first round pick senators \) philly gets damphousse , bellow , patrick roy draft pick shadow r node gts org 's see 's real \( \) 's ca n't see 's transparent 's ca n't see erased !
cbnewsl cb att com \( joseph lam \) subject request islanders e mail list article cbnewsl 1993apr5 distribution na organization lines 26 article 1993apr3 cc mcgill ca ee mcgill ca \( mr \) writes article rpi edu wangr rpi edu writes anyone keeping islanders e mail list , could please add \? thanks advance u add onto list thanks rex count ! ! ! ! go isles ! ee mcgill ca please count also ca n't tell excited islanders beat rangers overtime last friday ! ! ! go isles !
mfoster alliant backbone uoknor edu \( marc foster \) subject expansion originator news midway ecn uoknor edu distribution na nntp posting host midway ecn uoknor edu organization university oklahoma , norman , ok lines 33 article patrick blanco owlnet rice edu patrick blanco owlnet rice edu \( patrick l humphrey \) writes fri , 2 apr 1993 22 05 16 gmt , atlas cs upei ca \( michael \) said 16 albany \( new york \) , boise \( idaho \) couple cities fair interest size teams question albany ahl franchise \( though goes capital district label \) , boise \? forget chl made attempt part country 1983 84 , franchise great falls one showed folks part n't interested hockey hey patrick , montana magic played billings , great falls , know 'd put next two nhl expansion teams phoenix houston , assuming whalers n't pack move meantime marc , phoenix houston marc foster , r h contact oklahoma city blazers , 1993 central hockey university oklahoma geography department league adams cup internet mfoster uoknor edu champions mfoster alliant backbone uoknor edu placed chl mailing list , send email either address
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject trade rumor montreal ottawa phillie organization university toronto chemistry department lines 42 article 1993apr5 1 kean ucs mun ca slegge kean ucs mun ca writes tsn sportsdesk reported ottawa sun reported montreal send 4 players 15 million including vin damphousse brian bellows , phillie send eric lindros ottawa , ottawa give 's first round pick montreal obviously reporter ottawa sun got taken april fools joke probably started someone nordiques bruins like example going reimburse flyers 15 million paid nordiques like senators going get lindros 15 million flyers sent equivalent 6 7 players \( include draft choices \) quebec , going get four back reporter real badly someone must real good laugh seeing much sports media chosen publicize utter nonsense true , likely depend whether ottawa gets choose 1st overall ottawa afford salary \? think cannot possibly true need ! personally , ca n't see philli giving lindros anything n't give away much quebec trade away mention lindros seems huge draw phillie represents successful future franchise ottawa may better taking 4 players 15 montreal pick ca n't believe anyone would consider giving crap even consideration gerald
maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) subject many europeans nhl article ramsey 1993apr6 organization dept computer science , laurentian university , sudbury , lines 15 rauser 734062608 sfu ca rauser fraser sfu ca \( richard racist rauser \) writes kinds racist drivel deleted find man absolutely nothing say richard j rauser , little man , necessary , rm roger maynard maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca
aludra usc edu \( jonathan barrett \) subject many europeans nhl article aludra organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 15 nntp posting host aludra usc edu rauser fraser sfu ca \( richard john rauser \) writes okay , stretcher remark little carried away point resent nhl owners drafting europeans instead canadians \( americans \) denies young canadians opportunity play north american league instead gives europeans , n't even better hockey players 's hype european mystique sickening , nhl owners get , canadian american players continue fight harder get drafted league according reasonable principle justice standing intimate geographical psychological relations league give one privileged right play \? european
coulman cs usask ca \( randy coulman \) subject playoff predictions organization university saskatchewan lines 28 distribution world reply coulman cs usask ca nntp posting host skorpio usask ca article 1993apr04 rose com , jack petrilli rose com \( jack petrilli \) writes stuff deleted n't understand many people predicting upset pittsburgh team 12 row coming playoffs 've practically every game 've really wanted win year \( including critical victories caps one hot bruins team \) team probably peak \( stronger previous 2 stanley cup winners \) mean , know lose would large upset personally think teams going hard pressed win 1 2 games series pens \( i'm pittsburgh fan \) agree heard tsn tonight , want pick someone else , n't see i'm bruins fan maybe year different , n't look good time tell , though lots deleted randy randy coulman , sc aries laboratory research assistant department computational science university saskatchewan coulman cs usask ca saskatoon , sk s7n 0w0
kozloce wkuvx1 bitnet subject good hockey bad hockey organization western kentucky university , bowling green , ky lines 25 article cellar org , darling cellar org \( thomas darling \) writes jmd cbnewsm cb att com \( joseph dakes \) writes article dev null phys psu edu , stimpy dev null phys psu edu article constellation ecn uoknor edu mfoster alliant prefer miami colons headline flames blow colons , 9 1 would kevin dineen play miami colons \? \? \? flyers fan , resent making kevin dineen butt jokes \) ! aw , take moment digest i'm sure 'll see humour thomas darling cellar bbs public access system 215 539 3043 darling cellar org genie darling truth thru technology v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v v anybody problems following thread sure ask poster rectify misunderstanding lets go caps ! ! !
maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) subject canadiens another stanley cup \? \? \? organization dept computer science , laurentian university , sudbury , lines 35 rauser sfu ca rauser fraser sfu ca \( richard john rauser \) writes pereira cam org \( dean pereira \) writes kind team montreal , take cup easily problem right everyone trying steal show play alone need massive teamwork known savard syndrome talking denis , serge team ever win squat likes denis savard lineup also little slump long time hockey montreal canadiens announcer claude died last tuesday rough everybody worked organization 21 years know excuse habs manage get good teamwork get spirit , problem winning may could tell savard stay home watch games tv agree also think roy needs good kick sometimes horrible 4 0 loss capitals last week ! 's cup 23 year ! sounds like 12 cordially , always , rm roger maynard maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca
slegge kean ucs mun ca subject trade rumor montreal ottawa phillie lines 20 organization memorial university st john 's nfld , canada tsn sportsdesk reported ottawa sun reported montreal send 4 players 15 million including vin damphousse brian bellows , phillie send eric lindros ottawa , ottawa give 's first round pick montreal personally , ca n't see philli giving lindros anything go idiot posted gretzky trade toronto \? \? \? \? \? ! ! ! listen , asshole , i'm commenting heard reported sports news ! ! 'll notice skeptical comment ! sheesh thought group conversation ! guess wrong stephen legge slegge kean ucs munc ca
daniell cory berkeley edu \( daniel lyddy \) subject many europeans nhl nntp posting host cory berkeley edu organization university california , berkeley lines 37 article rauser 734062608 sfu ca rauser fraser sfu ca \( richard john rauser \) writes ten years ago , number europeans nhl roughly quarter going 1992 93 season , numbers euros nhl teams escalated following stats canadians 400 americans 100 europeans 100 's point far many europeans nhl sick know , 're absolutely right think round players european descent ship 'em back came let 's see , start \? dunno , lemieux \? hmmm sounds like french blood ! ! ! hey ! france part europe ! send euro blooded boy back ! ! ! sheesh i'm creation european hockey league , let bures selannes world play continent n't want mine n't think would hard find native americans \( native canadians , matter \) would dispute claim great continent ya see , believe , 're immigrants sort really n't think mogilny , bure , selanne , et al improved nhl , i'm sure understand game dan lyddy daniell cory berkeley edu university california berkeley , n't play hockey many brothers deion sanders
gtd597a prism gatech edu \( hrivnak \) subject good hockey bad hockey organization georgia institute technology lines 20 prefer miami colons headline flames blow colons , 9 1 would kevin dineen play miami colons \? \? \? flyers fan , resent making kevin dineen butt jokes \) ! aw , take moment digest i'm sure 'll see humour anybody problems following thread sure ask poster rectify misunderstanding rectum \? go skins ! next question emotional music quite go braves ! effect \? mike patton , faith go hornets ! go capitals ! mike friedman \( hrivnak fan ! \) internet gtd597a prism gatech edu
slegge kean ucs mun ca subject many european nhl lines 29 organization memorial university st john 's nfld , canada ra 's point far many europeans nhl r sick watching game american canadian ra team \( let 's say , red wings canucks \) seeing names r like bure konstantinov borshevshky north america ra n't \? disagree think nhl feature best hockey talent world regardless nationality admit see players like gretzky messier traded us canadian teams ca n't afford , know say \( half seriously \) 'd probably better canadian hockey league canadian players ! \) ra i'm creation european hockey league , let ra te bures selannes world play continent ra ra n't want mine , n't matter russian , finnish , mexican , , new yorker , black , white , korean , martian , , n't matter put jersey put puck ! \) stephen legge slegge kean ucs munc ca
stimpy dev null phys psu edu \( gregory nagy \) subject good hockey bad hockey article dev null organization penn state , null device department lines 35 nntp posting host dev null phys psu edu article hydra gatech edu gtd597a prism gatech edu \( hrivnak \) writes prefer miami colons headline flames blow colons , 9 1 would kevin dineen play miami colons \? \? \? flyers fan , resent making kevin dineen butt jokes \) ! aw , take moment digest i'm sure 'll see humour anybody problems following thread sure ask poster rectify misunderstanding rectum \? 's bad jokes like draws , mean crowd n't bother looking appendix , 's useless anyway one word advice go miami game , stay away foods made natural \) hockey ! hockey ! hockey ! u joy ! joy ! joy ! u \( \) j kat stimpy dev null phys psu edu \( 5 nagy psu edu nagy cs psu edu v nagy crayola cs psu edu nagy love shack com oh yeah \( \( \) psuvm psu edu , bitnet
andrew cmu edu subject ncaa finals winner \? \? \? \? organization freshman , physics , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 9 nntp posting host andrew cmu edu reply 1993apr4 miavx1 acs muohio edu miavx1 acs writes lake state maine finals \? please post maine 5 , lssu 4 terry
cc buffalo edu \( darryl brooks \) subject many europeans nhl \( euro bashing \? \) organization university buffalo lines 60 news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host cc buffalo edu article rauser 734062608 sfu ca , rauser fraser sfu ca \( richard john rauser \) writes 's point far many europeans nhl sick watching game american canadian team \( let 's say , red wings canucks \) seeing names like bure konstantinov borshevshky north america n't \? toronto , detriot , quebec , edmonton particularly annoying , numbers euros teams getting worse well live vancouver hear one word pavel bure , russian rocket completely throw , every time see canucks play keep hoping someone cross check bure hard carry stretcher \( way , i'm canucks fan begin \) okay , stretcher remark little carried away point resent nhl owners drafting europeans instead canadians \( americans \) denies young canadians opportunity play north american league instead gives europeans , n't even better hockey players 's hype european mystique sickening , nhl owners get , canadian american players continue fight harder get drafted league numbers euros nhl escalating , problem clearly getting worse i'm creation european hockey league , let bures selannes world play continent n't want mine ah , 're european player bashing \? next \? french canadiens \? yeah , 's idea ! let french speaking canadiens hockey league ! n't want ! crazy \? nhl one true international leagues , yes , many europeans deserve play nhl better north americans , look teemu ! ! ! , one , glad see europeans nhl hope nhl soon expands europe nice see different people come together form \( soon \) 26 hockey teams richard j rauser idea 're rauser sfu ca oh , n't worry 're professional wni outlaws living remember , matter go , dr banzai darryl brooks university buffalo \( \) go bills , sabres , magic ! !
gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) subject stan fischler , 4 4 summary devils show , prior hosting penguins nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) organization phds hall lines 32 lester patrick awards lunch , bill torrey mentioned one options next season president miami team , bob clarke working dinner , clarke said worst mistake philadelphia letting mike keenan go retrospect , almost players came realize keenan knew took win rumours circulating keenan back flyers nick sick schedule made red wings , bryan murray approved gerry meehan john muckler worried sabres' prospects assistant lever says sabres get share , quebec dynasty emerging mighty ducks declared throw money around loosely buy team oilers coach ted green remarked guys around fill tie domi 's skates , none fill helmet andrew told security guard chicago stadium warned stairs leading locker room mouthed , professional entire steep flight gld je souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go ! ! ! gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
patricia l bruno andrew cmu edu subject hockey hell organization freshman , mechanical engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 42 andy bgsu edu nntp posting host andrew cmu edu reply andy bgsu edu article noose ecn purdue edu , ecn purdue edu \( richard \) wrote article 1993mar26 ncsu edu fmsalvat eos ncsu edu \( frank mich ae salvatore \) writes originally new york state , go school north carolina yet , n't constantly gripe lack hockey would n't chose go school south realize \( gripe clemson students \) hockey n't quite popular south carolina chose school \? \( excuse y'all \) choose schools south hockey important \? everyone luxury deciding college making sure hockey want pittsburgh c home sucks sports south n't even show final game stanley cup year happening put delay cut went air move take good bad deal n't mean ca n't complain parents greater hartford area greater cleveland , ohio area action choice hockey coverage could get regularly red wings penguins \( explaining , part , follow teams today \) cleveland could n't even find hockey scores 11 o'clock news figured n't , n't sport least parents n't move idaho things get coverage football , basketball baseball ! patty
mips com \( dee dee france \) subject european russian hockey team addresses \? organization silicon graphics , inc lines 56 nntp posting host ralph mti sgi com originator ralph mti sgi com anyone addresses following hockey teams located czech republics , finland , russia sweden \? information find addresses would also appreciated aik assat dynamo espoo hpk hv 71 ht jokerit khimik leksand lulea malmo modo red army soviet wings tps tappara dee dee france sgi com
adams hunter unr edu \( brian adams \) subject memoriam dan kelly danny gallivan organization university nevada , reno department computer science distribution na lines 30 article 1993apr5 ists ists ca dchhabra stpl ists ca \( deepak chhabra \) writes article burke 1 nd edu burke 1 nd edu \( r p burke \) writes talking hockey broadcasters , let 's give moment silence remember st louis blues' great , dan kelly \( many may heard late 60s early 70s cbs \) used hockey night canada , another recently deceased great , danny gallivan canadiens loved dan kelly ! usa first got hooked hockey back 1980 , n't always spot top play , n't overly cute , pipes ! , barrel , voice ! \( unlike know ! \) rode hockey mania gretzky boys bus first finals saw islanders sweep 'll never forget night , year later , oilers closed home , smoke million , long empty net goal near end , dan kelly letting crowd 's reaction tell story long seconds , voice barking din dave edmonton ! sounds stupid , early \( \) hockey memory always bring thrill since 've grown lot game , really saddened dan kelly 's passing one good guys brian adams reno
flute calpoly edu \( michael jacques \) subject playoff predictions organization california polytechnic state university , san luis obispo lines 51 article senator bedfellow mit edu boudreau athena mit edu \( carol v boudreau \) writes smythe one toughest call , put personal bias aside \( go calgary \) think lot depends wins division winnipeg move third end season , first place winner clear advantage lot easier build momentum team like kings whoever plays kings first round take division much hurts , pick , division winner vancouver canucks 'll disagree one think vancouver go bure goes , continues goal scoring slump , wo n't even make first round think kings make first round , regardless play seem pretty well , even bad game minnesota saturday think 'll either calgary los angeles win smythe \( e go conference finals \) wales conference trophy islanders bruins fight end , think islanders enough steam overtake bruins seven campbell conference trophy walk vancouver , maybe 5 6 definately 7 stanley cup final islanders vancouver islanders nothing left point succumb fairly easily canucks stanley cup champion vancouver canucks still disagree think 'll pittsburg get hat trick stanley cups look good hope enjoyed predictions hope correct \( go calgary \) neither well , may best team win \( pittsburg \) 's 02 worth message terminal carol boudreau boudreau athena mit edu
peterson pms ford com \( doug peterson \) subject ncaa hockey final organization ford motor company lines 34 distribution world reply peterson pms ford com nntp posting host pms ford com keywords college n't seen anyone post honors maine beat lssu 5 4 milwaukee saturday night quite game maine stormed 2 0 lead first looked like might run away maine 's first goal came inside first thirty seconds game lssu came back end period cut lead 2 1 lssu came second dominating play particularly along boards play went quickly refs running holds barred type game lssu scored three unanswered goals lead 4 2 end second looked like lssu might walk away game coach walsh , maine , replaced starting goalie dunham snow , game michigan snow proved much aggressive goalie third period , like second , belonged team behind maine scored three unanswered goals span five minutes four minute mark scored jim montgomery , tournament mvp , assisted paul kariya last minute game bears highlighting change snow also proved difference end one minute go lssu goalie pulled , snow lssu forward amazing set moves snow great way end game year 's three championships games sold last year one month bradley center holds approximately 17 , 700 douglas j peterson peterson pms ford com ` safety laboratories department driven ford motor company \( 313 \) 390 , lately \?
mlindroos finabo abo fi \( marcus lindroos inf \) subject many europeans nhl reply rauser fraser sfu ca 's message tue , 6 apr 1993 02 16 48 gmt organization abo akademi university , finland x news reader vms news 1 24 lines 53 rauser 734062608 sfu ca rauser fraser sfu ca writes ten years ago , number europeans nhl roughly quarter going 1992 93 season , numbers euros nhl teams escalated following stats canadians 400 americans 100 europeans 100 please note numbers rounded , taken top 25 players 24 teams source vancouver sun 's point far many europeans nhl sick watching game american canadian team \( let 's say , red wings canucks \) seeing names like bure konstantinov borshevshky north america n't \? toronto , detriot , quebec , edmonton particularly annoying , numbers euros teams getting worse well 's expansion create jobs nhl teams ca n't afford import role players europe , pick stars continue build teams around local players numbers euros nhl escalating , problem clearly getting worse i'm creation european hockey league , let bures selannes world play continent 'd love see european nhl division ca n't see happen time 's simply enough fan interest moment several crucial markets like germany , italy france sweden finland probably ca n't afford shell 20 30 tickets way american canadian fans call minnesota north stars effect scandinavians love hockey prefer watch local , inexpensive hockey nhl national hockey league love idea , though pan european tv channels could bring millions american networks likely never pay n't want mine richard j rauser idea 're rauser sfu ca oh , n't worry 're professional wni outlaws living remember , matter go , dr banzai
seth cbnewsh cb att com \( peter r clark jr \) subject year 's biggest worst \( opinion \) organization keywords nhl , awards lines 34 article 1993apr5 alchemy chem utoronto ca , golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) writes article c4zcii ftn watserv1 uwaterloo ca smale healthy uwaterloo ca \( bryan smale \) writes team biggest biggest team mvp surprise disappointment philadelphia flyers lindros recchi fedyk galley eklund fence sitting look philly 's record eric without doubt soderstrom probably biggest surprise eric true , fortunately n't get find would like without recchi 30 games soderstrom absolutely 4 shutouts 39 games rookie without lot defense front galley fedyk scoring ton career best galley thinks 's paul coffey \( puts scoring ahead defending \) fedyk big time eklund big question mark year coming injuries 42 points 49 games bad , recently 's huge factor wins 've gotten eklund never point game season career , production typical qualify disappointment \? anything 's surprise choice would roussel went strictly expected players , never thought takes 1 goalie biggest disappointment bill dineen thought going perfect coach young team , instead 's made many bad moves imho cost enough games keep playoffs year coach thinks putting eric lindros point power plays bright idea needs go back coaching school pete clark jr rsh flyers contact mailing list owner
seth cbnewsh cb att com \( peter r clark jr \) subject flyers notes 4 5 organization keywords flyers leafs summary \( take , leafs woofers ! \) lines 225 flyers team beat team night showed spectrum sunday night , dominated maple leafs thoroughly en route 4 0 shutout tommy soderstrom get credit shutout , barely broke sweat third period flyers defense kept leafs mounting serious attack injuries pelle eklund day day bruised thigh roster moves jason bowen added lineup first nhl game jason flyers second pick first round \( 15th overall \) 1992 entry draft 19 years old , 6'4 , 210 lbs 62 games tri city americans 10 goals , 12 assists 219 pim plays left wing defense , played defense game although bobby taylor said bill dineen planning use front well andre faust returned hershey actually left second period kings game , flew albany , got game tying goal bears ot win , played hershey sunday night lines fedyk lindros recchi beranek brind'amour dineen lomakin butsayev conroy acton brown galley mcgill yushkevich cronin carkner hawgood bowen tommy soderstrom goal acton replaced lomakin 3rd period game summary flyers played like every night , 'd playoffs year flyers hit everything moved created scoring chance scoring chance snuffed everything leafs tried jason bowen made good play first nhl shift almost created goal puck top left offensive circle alone , instead taking shot found brind'amour crashing net side perfect pass good shot across daren puppa 's body goal , puppa made great save reading play garry galley gave maple leafs 7th ranked power play first chance hooked doug gilmour 4 25 flyers lowly 21st ranked penalty killing unit almost flawless entire game , set tone kill maple leafs got almost nothing long shots , defense swept away every rebound power play , flyers got goal ugly play rod brind'amour gave puck greg hawgood right point , sent drive net puppa made save kicked rebound right feet josef beranek bob rouse , wrestling slot beranek able get stick puck push dineen skating slot right circle , lifted puppa 1 0 flyers lead 8 10 flyers kept pressure , puppa leaf keeping flyers building lead eventually things settled defense prevailed team got occasional scoring chance , goalies strong bowen started giving lindros like checks corners lindros , looking avenge hit foligno gave , thought chance even score foligno lined center ice , leaned , rode center ice boards problem foligno little far boards , mike mister felt warranted boarding call 15 38 leafs could n't get anything going power play flyers aggressive \( change \) kill time running period , recchi carried neutral zone handed lindros approached leaf 's blue line crowd wendell clark jamie macoun , lindros tried backhand pass recchi feet macoun connected recchi , clark checked recchi puck macoun tried clear , weak went right mcgill manned point drove inside blue line macoun got stick deflected past goalie 19 55 1 shots 13 8 flyers period flyers finally got first chance power play dave andreychuk tripped rod brind'amour offensive zone power play , flyers got cheated little puck popped air eric , thought hit stick head could see seats end ice hit glove replay confirmed , faceoff went end time running advantage , lindros found galley pass across goal mouth puppa made save rebound kicked back right corner recchi picked , passed eric crashing right circle , eric one timed past puppa 7 55 assist , recchi moves past bobby clarke 's 74 75 season , second best one season total flyer 117 eric moves 4th time flyers rookie scoring 67 points mike eastwood took al conroy 8 30 give flyers another chance power play much pressure garry galley ended power play slash 9 19 much happened 4 4 , although leafs possession flyers leafs short power play tempers flared little 13 14 bowen pearson got roughing minors , keith acton got bloody face dave took dive got greg hawgood hooking minor 13 46 set 4 3 replay showed hawgood 's stick stopped making contact long spun around fell flyers leafs power play , led yushkevich bowen made thundering hit came box pearson tried everybody puck point , pass slot made flyers look silly nobody could get stick , got gilmour side net , soderstrom stoned flyers picked things offensively kill , n't get anything home shots 13 10 flyers flyers content 3 goal lead third period , decided tommy wanted shutout , going work little flyers got scoring chances first 7 minutes period , could n't get past puppa leafs got tired lindros making road kill , tempers flared 2 doug gilmour lindros \( unsportsmanlike conduct \) 2 glenn anderson mcgill \( roughing \) 7 02 terry carkner took penalty 7 51 gilmour flyers leafs power play 12 minute mark , dave andreychuk got shot away left circle got soderstrom puck rolling 's side , luck would turned away net instead turning towards \( think rolling quarter inevitably starts lean one way \) seconds later rod brind'amour tripped gilmour 12 24 give leafs another chance power play advantage , soderstrom stoned andreychuk lying , andreychuk got rebound soderstrom , behind net went straight swept away one defensemen kept pressure , soderstrom equal preserved shutout recchi cross checked ken baumgartner get tempers hot start brawl 16 01 punches thrown , recchi got initial minor , krushelnyski baumgartner lindros got roughing minors 17 02 rouse beranek expressed mutual dislike got 2 slashing set another 4 4 mike eastwood shoved ryan mcgill flyers zone battling puck , mcgill ran stick across mcgill 's face flyers happy 5 8 al conroy paired 6 1 , started throwing punches upward well , al held , much delight crowd got couple punches going head , al got standing ! penalties eastwood 5 \( cross check \) game , clark , carkner 10 conroy 5 \( fighting \) 17 49 major penalty rest game flyers interest lead hawgood , galley brind'amour played catch hawgood found dineen alone left circle , controlled puck blasted past puppa 18 39 , tommy soderstrom would face another shot puppa , kept flyers board 4 0 flyers , shots 9 8 flyers 3rd probably strongest game 've seen flyers since star break shutout number 4 soderstrom , since 1 10 tied 2nd nhl , 's played fewer games belfour \( 6 \) goalie ca n't remember 's tied next 's winnipeg selannes tuesday night winnipeg flyers cannot eliminated win , loss coupled islander win night washington would official end flyers 71 points season 78 games last year 75 points 80 games \( 5 500 \) , need least 8 points last 6 games improve percentage points \( 5 84 better 5 80 \) tragic number holds 3 points 6 games left tragic number 5th 5 points , watched rangers blow 4 2 third period lead home lose 5 4 finished 5 points instead 4 \? well , flyers win tie breaker catch , whereas islanders win tie breakers flyers need tie rangers could stretch play devils , pens twice , flyers , finish 2 games caps guess 5th place could goal team focus flyers team record watch eric lindros 38 goals , 29 assists , 67 points \( rookie records \) club record goals club record points eric lindros 38 1992 93 dave poulin 76 1983 84 brian propp 34 1979 80 brian propp 75 1979 80 ron flockhart 33 1981 82 ron flockhart 72 1981 82 dave poulin 31 1983 84 eric lindros 67 1992 93 bill barber 30 1972 73 pelle eklund 66 1985 86 mark recchi 51 goals , 66 assists , 117 points club record goals club record points reggie leach 61 1975 76 bobby clarke 119 1975 76 tim kerr 58 1985 86 , 86 87 mark recchi 117 1992 93 tim kerr 54 1983 84 , 84 85 bobby clarke 116 1974 75 mark recchi 51 1992 93 bill barber 112 1975 76 rick macliesh 50 1972 73 bobby clarke 104 1972 73 bill barber 50 1975 76 rick macliesh 100 1972 73 reggie leach 50 1979 80 flyers career years player points best prior season mark recchi 117 113 \( 90 91 penguins \) rod brind'amour 79 77 \( 91 92 flyers \) garry galley 58 38 \( 84 85 kings \) brent fedyk 58 35 \( 90 91 red wings \) 's pete clark jr rsh flyers contact mailing list owner
hahietanen tnclus tele nokia fi subject strange nhl \( team leaders \) lines 60 nntp posting host tele nokia fi organization nokia telecommunications article 1993apr5 ramsey cs laurentian ca , maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) writes 1993apr5 ists ists ca dchhabra stpl ists ca \( deepak chhabra \) writes implicitly assuming goals scored winnipeg selanne ice blamed roger , forward winnipeg lousy defensive record anyway let 's put another way john cullen 's terrible 's excuse \? powerplay points n't count \? neither selanne 's comparing cullen salami \? would say valid winnipeg lousy defensive team hell salami stand around team 's blueline puck end \? thought comparing cullen teemu sel nne always thought salami sort , , dear roger , able see salami ice playing hockey n't know , surely something quickly ! ! ! maybe think keep talking rubbish , time everybody consider really true take care leafs , surely need best score refer comment finnish friends watched play claim play solid two way game would say style contribution would conducive winning n't think \? least seen playing , selanne goal suck see way parades around arms scoring goal \? would think messiah returned latest philly game leaf players n't parade philly 4 0 ! ! ! maybe need two way players score , ! ! \? \? \? cordially , always , rm roger maynard maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca cordially , hannu go jets go ! teemu ! teppo ! tappara canadiens blackhawks
subject trade rumor montreal ottawa phillie psuvm psu edu organization penn state university lines 50 article 93095 auvm american edu , mweintr auvm american edu says also slegge kean ucs mun ca tsn sportsdesk reported ottawa sun reported montreal send 4 players 15 million including vin damphousse brian bellows , phillie send eric lindros ottawa , ottawa give 's first round pick montreal true , likely depend whether ottawa gets choose 1st overall ottawa afford salary \? personally , ca n't see philli giving lindros anything n't give away much quebec trade away mention lindros seems huge draw phillie represents successful future franchise ottawa may better taking 4 players 15 montreal pick stephen legge slegge kean ucs munc ca two things 1 n't trade deadline pass two weeks ago \? 2 flyers would never ever ever give lindros , simple 3 soderstrom roussel , hell would flyers want pick older roy \? \( , could come group players 'd trade would n't team \) go flyers , cup '94 mike yes rush marillion genesis king crimson dream theater beatles mike , aka irc courageous convictions mweintr american edu drag dream jedi wave cerf net existence american university , washington dc rush \( limbaugh \) go philadelphia flyers , vancouver canucks philadelphia phillies john e psuvm
nbivax nbi dk subject year 's biggest worst \( opinion \) reply organization niels bohr institute , copenhagen lines 56 article c4zcii ftn watserv1 uwaterloo ca , smale healthy uwaterloo ca \( bryan smale \) writes thinking teams mvps , biggest surprises , biggest year , observations admittedly lacking opportunity see teams amount anyway mvp valuable player team terms points terms leadership \( ca n't win without \) biggest surprise player rose expectation player may raised level game new height , even new level n't necessarily warrant berth \( includes players outset season , may even team 's plans \) biggest disappointment player expected \( e g , picked denis savard montreal new emphasis offence brought demers , n't savard done better \? \) team biggest biggest team mvp surprise disappointment boston bruins oates sweeney wesley buffalo sabres lafontaine mogilny audette \( jinx \? \) calgary flames roberts reichel petit chicago blackhawks roenick ruuttu goulet detroit red wings yzerman chaisson kozlov edmonton oilers manson buchberger mellanby hartford whalers sanderson corriveau los angeles kings robitaille donnelly hrudey minnesota north stars modano tinordi \( expected back \) broten montreal canadiens muller lebeau savard new jersey devils stevens semak maclean new york islanders turgeon king \( finally \) marois new york rangers messier kovalev bourque ottawa senators maciver baker jelinek philadelphia flyers lindros recchi fedyk galley eklund pittsburgh penguins lemieux tocchet \( even \) jagr quebec nordiques sakic ricci kovalenko pearson san jose sharks kisio gaudreau maley st louis blues shanahan c joseph ron sutter tampa bay lightening bradley bradley creighton kasper toronto maple leafs gilmour potvin ellett anderson vancouver canucks bure nedved \( finally \) momesso washington capitals hatcher bondra cote elynuik winnipeg jets selanne selanne druce mentioned top , impressions sit would welcome opinions fans nearer teams \( words , anywhere away toronto newspaper ! \) bryan
tervio katk helsinki fi \( marko j \) subject realignment 2000 organization university helsinki , computing centre lines 43 well , , nhl year 2000 got reliable source dream years ago although initially thought taking many strong drugs seems realization really begun see league already started move direction walt disney conference anaheim mighty franchise name changed new la kings hockey movie la flames 've seen san jose sharks san diego bruins red wings detroit 's hockey team follow car industry dallas stars houston oilers texas rangers seattle canucks norm green conference alabama white hawks blues tampa bay lightning miami blades helsinki jets 've heard starting getting used anthem montreal \( sp \? \) atlanta devils orlando key west islanders hartford whalers whalers never move , huh \? palm beach capitals team becomming real i'm really beginning believe rest i'm sure future turn believers 2000 nhl ice rinks 's expensive cool rinks locals hardly know ice anyway nhl become roller skating hockey league way create public interest game local play game back yards ! hope i'm mind wo n't really disney team anaheim , \? stars n't really moving
etxonss ufsa ericsson se \( staffan axelsson \) subject nhl swedes stats , april 5 organization ericsson telecom , stockholm , sweden lines 141 nntp posting host uipc104 ericsson se scoring stats swedish nhl players , april 5 mats sundin watch points season 131 kent nilsson , calgary flames 1980 81 \( 49 82 \) 110 mats naslund , montreal canadiens 1985 86 \( 43 67 \) 109 mats sundin , quebec nordiques 1992 93 \( 43 66 \) 106 hakan , calgary flames 1987 88 \( 50 56 \) 104 kent nilsson , calgary flames 1982 83 \( 46 58 \) 99 kent nilsson , calgary flames 1984 85 \( 37 62 \) goals season 50 hakan , calgary flames 1987 88 49 kent nilsson , calgary flames 1980 81 46 kent nilsson , calgary flames 1982 83 45 tomas sandstrom , la kings 1990 91 43 mats naslund , montreal canadiens 1985 86 43 mats sundin , quebec nordiques 1992 93 assists season 82 kent nilsson , calgary flames 1980 81 67 mats naslund , montreal canadiens 1985 86 66 borje salming , toronto maple leafs 1976 77 66 mats sundin , quebec nordiques 1992 93 62 kent nilsson , calgary flames 1984 85 61 borje salming , toronto maple leafs 1977 78 61 thomas steen , winnipeg jets 1988 89 ulf samuelsson watch penalty minutes season 243 ulf samuelsson , pittsburgh penguins 1992 93 \( 3 25 \) 211 ulf samuelsson , pittsburgh penguins 1990 91 206 ulf samuelsson , pittsburgh penguins 1991 92 184 kjell samuelsson , philadelphia flyers 1988 89 181 ulf samuelsson , hartford whalers 1988 89 174 ulf samuelsson , hartford whalers 1985 86 170 borje salming , toronto maple leafs 1980 81 rl rk name team j ps ht wt born g pts pl comment 1 mats sundin que 13 c 6 2 189 2 13 71 43 66 109 7 2 ulf dahlen min 22 rw 6 2 195 1 12 67 33 38 71 5 3 thomas steen win 25 c 5 10 195 6 8 60 21 43 64 5 4 johan garpenlov sjs 10 lw 5 11 185 3 21 68 21 40 61 5 5 fredrik olausson win 4 6 2 200 10 5 66 13 38 51 4 6 tomas sandstrom lak 7 lw 6 2 207 9 4 64 22 24 46 2 7 per erik eklund phi 9 lw 5 10 175 3 22 63 8 34 42 injured 8 calle johansson 6 5 11 205 2 14 67 6 35 41 1 9 lidstrom det 5 6 2 180 4 28 70 7 33 40 2 10 tommy sjodin min 33 5 11 190 8 13 65 7 29 36 11 ulf samuelsson pit 5 6 1 195 3 26 64 2 24 26 1 12 mikael andersson tbl 34 lw 5 11 185 5 10 66 13 11 24 1 13 michael nylander hfd 36 lw 5 11 176 10 3 72 5 16 21 2 14 roger johansson cgy 34 6 1 185 4 7 67 4 15 19 1 15 jan nyr 20 lw 6 0 196 7 8 62 5 10 15 16 peter andersson nyr 25 6 0 187 8 29 65 4 7 11 1 17 kjell samuelsson pit 28 6 6 235 10 18 58 3 6 9 2 18 tommy njd 6 6 1 190 5 21 64 1 5 6 19 per nyr 44 5 11 176 5 11 68 1 1 2 binghampton \? 20 andersson que 46 lw 5 8 169 5 20 71 0 1 1 halifax 21 thomas cgy 27 lw 6 0 185 11 24 68 0 1 1 salt lake 22 patrik mon 20 lw 6 0 189 2 1 68 0 0 0 injured 23 patrik mon 27 lw 6 2 196 6 17 69 0 0 0 fredericton rl rank last week , rk rank , j jersey number , ps position , born \( mm dd yy \) g goals , assists , pts points , pl points scored since last posted list goalie stats name team j ps ht wt born tommy soderstrom phi 30 g 5 9 163 7 17 69 l mm dd vs res r w l sh sv gp mp ga gaa sog sv sv 12 17 pit 4 5 l 0 1 0 27 22 1 62 5 4 84 27 22 0 815 12 19 chi 3 1 w 1 1 0 28 27 2 122 6 2 95 55 49 0 891 12 20 tbl 1 4 l 1 2 0 31 27 3 182 10 3 30 86 76 0 884 12 23 pit 0 4 l 1 3 0 26 22 4 242 14 3 47 112 98 0 875 12 26 5 5 1 3 1 41 36 5 307 19 3 71 153 134 0 876 12 29 lak 10 2 w 2 3 1 43 41 6 367 21 3 43 196 175 0 893 12 30 sjs 6 2 w 3 3 1 35 33 7 427 23 3 23 231 208 0 900 1 2 cgy 3 7 l 3 4 1 32 26 8 486 29 3 58 263 234 0 890 1 3 edm 2 2 3 4 2 33 31 9 551 31 3 38 296 265 0 895 1 7 8 2 w 4 4 2 33 31 10 611 33 3 24 329 296 0 900 1 9 nyr 4 3 w 5 4 2 26 23 11 671 36 3 22 355 319 0 899 1 10 edm 4 0 w 6 4 2 29 29 12 731 36 2 95 384 348 0 906 1 1 14 cgy 4 4 6 4 3 27 23 13 796 40 3 02 411 371 0 903 1 16 bos 5 4 w 7 4 3 37 33 14 856 44 3 08 448 404 0 902 1 17 det 4 7 l 7 5 3 36 29 15 916 51 3 34 484 433 0 895 1 21 bos 4 5 l 7 6 3 32 27 16 976 56 3 44 516 460 0 891 1 23 nyi 4 8 l 7 7 3 31 23 17 1036 64 3 71 547 483 0 883 1 1 24 hfd 5 4 w 8 7 3 25 21 18 1098 68 3 72 572 504 0 881 1 30 pit 2 4 l 8 8 3 35 32 19 1157 71 3 68 607 536 0 883 2 3 nyr 2 2 8 8 4 38 36 20 1222 73 3 58 645 572 0 887 2 9 ott 8 1 w 9 8 4 28 27 21 74 3 46 673 599 0 890 2 11 mtl 0 0 9 8 5 23 23 22 74 3 30 696 622 0 894 2 2 13 njd 4 6 l 9 9 5 32 26 23 80 3 41 728 648 0 890 2 14 njd 2 5 l 9 10 5 26 21 24 85 3 48 754 669 0 887 2 16 cgy 4 4 9 10 6 29 29 25 85 3 37 783 698 0 891 2 18 van 3 2 w 10 10 6 30 28 26 87 3 32 813 726 0 893 2 20 min 2 5 l 10 11 6 33 28 27 92 3 38 846 754 0 891 2 22 det 5 5 10 11 6 15 12 28 1653 95 3 45 861 766 0 890 3 2 pit 5 4 w 11 11 6 22 21 29 96 3 41 883 787 0 891 3 5 3 0 w 12 11 6 36 36 30 1749 96 3 29 919 823 0 896 3 3 7 njd 4 7 l 12 12 6 41 35 31 1808 102 3 38 960 858 0 894 3 9 nyi 2 4 l 12 13 6 24 21 32 105 3 37 984 879 0 893 3 11 6 4 w 13 13 6 28 24 33 1927 109 3 39 903 0 892 3 16 min 4 3 w 14 13 6 34 31 34 1987 112 3 38 1046 934 0 893 3 20 pit 3 9 l 14 14 6 27 20 35 119 3 52 1073 954 0 889 3 21 njd 2 3 l 14 15 6 27 24 36 122 3 51 1100 978 0 889 3 24 nyr 5 4 w 15 15 6 45 41 37 2146 126 3 52 1145 1019 0 890 2 3 27 que 3 8 l 15 16 6 25 19 38 132 3 62 1170 1038 0 887 4 1 lak 1 3 l 15 17 6 26 23 39 2246 135 3 61 1196 1061 0 887 4 4 tor 4 0 w 16 17 6 26 26 40 135 3 51 1222 0 890 4 res result , sh shots , sv saves gp games played , mp minutes played , ga goals , gaa goals average sog shots goal , sv saves , sv saving percentage , shutouts , assists staffan \( \( staffan axelsson etxonss ufsa ericsson se \) \) r h contact swedish hockey
poe acc virginia edu \( warren \) subject spelling error stanley cup \? \? organization university virginia lines 24 r turgeo oz plymouth edu writes reading newspaper tidbit mentioned grammatical error stanley cup newspaper , union leader \( manchester , new hampshire \) , stated one years new york islanders cup , printing actual cup stated new york anyone verify \? \? forgot exact year supposedly occured die hard islander fans know \? \? reason asking paper reliable , call union mis leader randy plymouth state college r turgeo oz plymouth edu speaking spelling errors cup , wonder h pittsburgh made cup know funny people spelling pittsburgh warren visual communications 10 miles behind university virginia 10 , 000 go
eua ericsson se \( tomas \) subject many europeans nhl nntp posting host eua ericsson se nntp posting user organization ellemtel telecom systems labs , stockholm , sweden lines 78 rauser fraser sfu ca \( richard john rauser \) writes ten years ago , number europeans nhl roughly quarter going 1992 93 season , numbers euros nhl teams escalated following stats canadians 400 americans 100 europeans 100 please note numbers rounded , taken top 25 players 24 teams source vancouver sun 's point far many europeans nhl sick watching game american canadian team \( let 's say , red wings canucks \) seeing names like bure konstantinov borshevshky north america n't \? toronto , detriot , quebec , edmonton particularly annoying , numbers euros teams getting worse well answer simple dislike russians \? \? \? live vancouver hear one word pavel bure , russian rocket completely throw , every time see canucks play keep hoping someone cross check bure hard carry stretcher \( way , i'm canucks fan begin \) okay , stretcher remark little carried away point resent nhl owners drafting europeans instead canadians \( americans \) denies young canadians opportunity play north american league instead gives europeans , n't even better hockey players 's hype european mystique sickening , nhl owners get , canadian american players continue fight harder get drafted league numbers euros nhl escalating , problem clearly getting worse would canadian hockey today without europeans \? \? dont say european influence league bad game mean , look way play days less fights hockey imho , canadian hockey positive curve development since 70 's game brute beauty i'm creation european hockey league , let bures selannes world play continent oh , look ! ! n't like finns either n't want mine bad almost europe hmmm kind name rauser n't sound canadian \) ps analyzing teams like italy , france great britain find lot players canadians double citizenship ds richard j rauser idea 're rauser sfu ca oh , n't worry 're professional wni outlaws living remember , matter go , dr banzai , l \( \) \) \) \( \) l \( \) \) \) tomas tel 46 8 727 33 24 ellemtel telecom systems labs fax 46 8 647 80 59 box email tomas eua ericsson se 125 25 snailmail
rtp dg com \( \) subject wanted mail order hockey equipment distribution usa organization data general corporation , rtp , nc lines 11 could anyone recommend mail order distributor hockey equipment thanks advance wayne wayne e dg rtp dg com data general corporation research triangle park , nc
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject many europeans nhl article alchemy 1993apr6 organization university toronto chemistry department lines 77 article rauser 734062608 sfu ca rauser fraser sfu ca \( richard john rauser \) writes ten years ago , number europeans nhl roughly quarter going 1992 93 season , numbers euros nhl teams escalated following stats canadians 400 americans 100 europeans 100 please note numbers rounded , taken top 25 players 24 teams source vancouver sun 's point far many europeans nhl sick watching game american canadian team \( let 's say , red wings canucks \) seeing names like bure konstantinov borshevshky north america n't \? toronto , detriot , quebec , edmonton particularly annoying , numbers euros teams getting worse well come canada , sounds canadian smith ! \) anyways , crawl back hole crawled nba n't care get basketball players , major league baseball n't give damn get baseball players \( except cuba , \) canada imminent danger primary supplier players sweden , finland , czech republic , slovakia relatively small countries , cannot really produce players greater rate already producing , potential former soviet union severely system raided finances take decade two , recover become real threat , us maintain slow increase canada continue supply 60 plus top hockey players world forseeable future besides need european hockey market hockey take rightful place besides soccer two predominant world sports since soccer essentially boring , unlike hockey live vancouver hear one word pavel bure , russian rocket completely throw , every time see canucks play keep hoping someone cross check bure hard carry stretcher \( way , i'm canucks fan begin \) okay , stretcher remark little carried away point resent nhl owners drafting europeans instead canadians \( americans \) denies young canadians opportunity play north american league instead gives europeans , n't even better hockey players 's hype european mystique sickening , nhl owners get , canadian american players continue fight harder get drafted league numbers euros nhl escalating , problem clearly getting worse canadians threat european numbers soon , n't already time russia comes online , nhl world league , many teams stock many jobs canadian hockey players near team , percentage canadians mostly decline americans , europeans i'm creation european hockey league , let bures selannes world play continent n't want mine crawl hole die gerald
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject many europeans nhl article alchemy 1993apr6 organization university toronto chemistry department lines 14 article 1993apr6 pasteur berkeley edu daniell cory berkeley edu \( daniel lyddy \) writes know , 're absolutely right think round players european descent ship 'em back came let 's see , start \? dunno , lemieux \? hmmm sounds like french blood ! ! ! hey ! france part europe ! send euro blooded boy back ! ! ! n't americans study history french settled north america early british lemieux probably trace back north american heritage back lot us gerald
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject lindros traded ! ! ! article alchemy 1993apr6 organization university toronto chemistry department lines 14 article 1993apr5 576 r node hub org shadow r node hub org \( jay chu \) writes true rumor fact ! big three way deal ! eric lindros going ottawa senators senators get montreal montreal gets alexander daigle \( first round pick senators \) philly gets damphousse , bellow , patrick roy draft pick another person incapable rational thought ! gerald
lli cs cmu edu \( lori iannamico \) subject many europeans nhl nntp posting host lli mach cs cmu edu organization school computer science , carnegie mellon lines 26 article rauser 734062608 sfu ca rauser fraser sfu ca \( richard john rauser \) writes ten years ago , number europeans nhl roughly quarter going 1992 93 season , numbers euros nhl teams escalated following stats canadians 400 americans 100 europeans 100 trash deleted i'm creation european hockey league , let bures selannes world play continent n't want mine 're going go extremes , guess 'd better start packing unless 're native north american , n't continent either lori
c5ff jupiter sun csd unb ca \( cook charlie \) subject nhl summary parse results games played mon , april 5 , 1993 article jupiter 1993apr6 organization university new brunswick lines 39 hartford 1 1 3 5 ny rangers 1 2 1 4 first period 1 , hartford , cunneyworth 5 \( janssens , greig \) 12 21 2 , ny rangers , graves 34 \( turcotte , zubov \) 18 39 second period 3 , ny rangers , kovalev 19 \( turcotte , graves \) 2 12 4 , hartford , sanderson 44 \( cassels \) pp , 4 54 5 , ny rangers , amonte 30 \( andersson , vanbiesbrouck \) pp , 19 13 third period 6 , ny rangers , messier 25 \( amonte , andersson \) 2 26 7 , hartford , sanderson 45 \( cassels \) sh , 5 23 8 , hartford , nylander 6 \( \) 8 35 9 , hartford , verbeek 36 \( zalapski \) 17 43 hartford 5 power play 4 1 special goals pp 1 sh 1 total 2 scorer g pts cassels 0 2 2 cunneyworth 1 0 1 greig 0 1 1 janssens 0 1 1 0 1 1 nylander 1 0 1 sanderson 2 0 2 verbeek 1 0 1 zalapski 0 1 1 ny rangers 4 power play 4 1 scorer g pts amonte 1 1 2 andersson 0 2 2 graves 1 1 2 kovalev 1 0 1 messier 1 0 1 turcotte 0 2 2 vanbiesbrouck 0 1 1 zubov 0 1 1
damelio progress com \( stephen d'amelio \) subject ray \? nntp posting host organization progress software corp lines 22 daveb thewho east sun com \( dave brewer \) writes yesterday 's rob ray brent hughes , camera angle ray actually punching hughes appeared punching \? \( n't see game several inches belt punched quite times \) dreadful also , poulin get four minutes \? 've watching playing hockey good long time , 've seen players questionable tactics , never seen ray sunday guy gets time loser award 's one thing repeatedly cross check someone back neck , 's another thing fist fight someones balls ray thrown league , hole steve
bks2 cbnewsi cb att com \( bryan k strouse \) subject nhl results games played 4 05 93 organization keywords monday night 's lines 55 nhl results games played 4 05 93 standings patrick adams norris smythe tm w l pt tm w l pt tm w l pt tm w l pt 53 21 6 112 47 27 6 100 44 28 9 97 yvan 42 28 9 93 40 31 7 87 46 26 7 99 43 25 11 97 40 29 10 90 nj 38 35 6 82 44 25 10 98 42 26 11 95 37 33 9 83 nyi 37 34 6 80 38 31 10 86 stl 35 34 10 80 37 35 7 81 nyr 34 33 11 79 har 24 49 5 53 min 34 35 10 78 edm 26 45 8 60 phl 30 37 11 71 ott 9 66 4 22 tb 22 51 5 49 sj 10 68 2 22 x clinched division title clinched playoff berth hartford whalers \( 24 49 5 \) 1 1 3 5 new york rangers \( 34 33 11 \) 1 2 1 4 1st period har , cunneyworth 5 \( janssens , greig \) 12 21 nyr , graves 34 \( turcotte , zubov \) 18 39 2nd period nyr , kovalev 19 \( turcotte , graves \) 2 12 har , sanderson 44 \( cassels \) \( pp \) 4 54 nyr , amonte 30 \( andersson , vanbiesbrouck \) \( pp \) 19 13 3rd period nyr , messier 25 \( amonte , andersson \) 2 26 har , sanderson 45 \( cassels \) \( sh \) 5 23 har , 6 \( \) 8 35 har , verbeek 36 \( zalapski \) 17 43 powerplay opportunities whalers 1 4 rangers 1 4 shots goal whalers 7 8 8 23 rangers 9 10 12 31 hartford whalers gosselin \( 4 7 1 \) \( 31 shots 27 saves \) new york rangers vanbiesbrouck \( 20 18 7 \) \( 23 shots 18 saves \) att 17 , 806 spike
andrew idacom hp com \( andrew scott \) subject usenet hockey draft week 26 standings organization hewlett packard , idacom telecommunications division lines 279 standings april 6 update 'll leaving japan 1 5 hours , wo n't back april 17 consequently , post week 27 results april 18 email sent april 13 april 18 processed using numbers available april 18 andrew usenet hockey draft standings week 26 posn team pts cash last posn 1 dave wessels 1575 3 1 9 \( 1 \) 2 gilles carmel 8 56 3 \( 5 \) 3 bob hill 8 24 0 \( 2 \) 4 awesome oilers 9 68 6 \( 3 \) 5 seppo kemppainen 9 47 2 \( 6 \) 6 mak knife paranjape 1501 8 31 0 \( 4 \) 7 hillside raiders 7 7 0 \( 7 \) 8 jan stein 1354 8 35 3 \( 9 \) 9 rangers destiny 1346 5 42 0 \( 10 \) 10 years model 1471 8 17 6 \( 8 \) 11 tapio repo 1354 0 19 6 \( 12 \) 12 big fish 1341 3 22 0 \( 14 \) 13 5 65 4 \( 16 \) 14 thin ice 1333 5 32 3 \( 11 \) 15 lindros losers 1349 9 1 7 \( 13 \) 16 littlest giants 7 35 6 \( 15 \) 17 go flames 1290 1422 6 64 4 \( 17 \) 18 mopar muscle men 7 3 7 \( 19 \) 19 die penguin 1304 7 20 2 \( 18 \) 20 samuel lau \( calgary , alberta \) 1298 2 4 9 \( 21 \) 21 general accounting office 1373 8 20 9 \( 22 \) 22 menschen 0 31 6 \( 20 \) 23 boomer 's boys 1285 1 0 2 \( 23 \) 24 delaware 1285 2 1 3 \( 24 \) 25 's dec nh 1223 1354 4 52 6 \( 27 \) 26 rocky mountain high 1349 3 1 8 \( 29 \) 27 fife flyers 1346 3 31 4 \( 26 \) 28 gerald olchowy 1231 0 33 7 \( 25 \) 29 glacial 1246 1338 5 18 0 \( 28 \) 30 3 11 2 \( 30 \) 31 1238 0 0 3 \( 32 \) 32 young 1185 1299 7 42 9 \( 31 \) 33 artic storm 8 39 3 \( 43 \) 34 sam dogs 1206 0 11 6 \( 33 \) 35 neural netters 1287 9 11 3 \( 35 \) 36 1157 6 101 7 \( 34 \) 37 soft swedes 1154 3 46 9 \( 58 \) 38 jeff horvath 1262 7 5 6 \( 39 \) 39 yan man loke 1180 3 0 7 \( 40 \) 40 milton keynes kings 1180 6 2 8 \( 42 \) 41 hoboken 1178 5 8 7 \( 36 \) 42 le de 3 25 3 \( 46 \) 43 ice legion 1157 6 28 8 \( 37 \) 44 1133 1254 4 87 6 \( 44 \) 45 1137 1 45 1 \( 72 \) 46 finnish force 1149 1249 4 22 5 \( 48 \) 47 streaks 1 54 8 \( 38 \) 48 legion hoth 1246 3 15 8 \( 52 \) 49 goaldingers 1146 6 22 0 \( 45 \) 50 grant marven 0 2 9 \( 50 \) 51 1161 2 7 3 \( 49 \) 52 c 8 2 9 \( 47 \) 53 skriko wolves 4 5 4 \( 53 \) 54 bruins 7 45 2 \( 41 \) 55 brian bergman 1132 1229 3 23 3 \( 51 \) 56 lippe 1132 1214 7 13 9 \( 65 \) 57 randy coulman 1140 1214 5 5 2 \( 56 \) 58 lamp lighters 1138 1214 2 5 9 \( 66 \) 59 dave snell 1089 1212 5 182 5 \( 60 \) 60 steven mark dream team 1133 1210 6 3 1 \( 53 \) 61 houdini 's magicians 1126 9 18 3 \( 59 \) 62 real bad toe jam 1096 1208 6 48 9 \( 63 \) 63 rec sport hockey choices 1137 1208 3 1 3 \( 63 \) 64 iowa 1205 7 16 3 \( 55 \) 65 buffalo soldiers 1204 6 62 1 \( 57 \) 66 indianapolis 1114 1200 6 20 8 \( 67 \) 67 bloom county stars 1121 2 4 3 \( 61 \) 68 tom 0 13 1 \( 68 \) 69 phil kev 's karma dudes 1121 6 0 8 \( 69 \) 70 aik 1078 1 34 5 \( 70 \) 71 doug bowles 1099 1186 4 20 0 \( 62 \) 72 bruins 1184 9 0 1 \( 75 \) 73 smithw 1095 1184 3 21 0 \( 71 \) 74 great 1057 1178 6 54 4 \( 73 \) 75 shooting 1111 1177 8 0 1 \( 77 \) 76 frank worthless 1099 6 6 3 \( 82 \) 77 non ! 1089 7 16 4 \( 74 \) 78 invisible inc 5 1 1 \( 79 \) 79 brad gibson 1075 0 27 2 \( 89 \) 80 checkers 1074 1165 6 16 3 \( 85 \) 81 plp fools 8 0 1 \( 76 \) 82 john 1063 2 27 1 \( 78 \) 83 staffan axelsson 1082 1163 0 15 1 \( 80 \) 84 david wong 1038 5 66 1 \( 87 \) 85 1041 1160 7 164 1 \( 92 \) 86 chocolate rockets 1083 9 2 5 \( 83 \) 87 ken 1078 8 5 0 \( 94 \) 88 1061 1154 7 24 8 \( 86 \) 89 garryola 1073 9 9 7 \( 81 \) 90 's dastardly dozen 1062 1149 6 22 1 \( 88 \) 91 1033 1147 6 58 2 \( 91 \) 92 campi machine 1022 1145 8 65 3 \( 90 \) 93 gary bergman fan club 1071 1145 1 5 1 \( 98 \) 94 fisher 1073 1 0 7 \( 93 \) 95 1076 1141 0 1 3 \( 84 \) 96 arsenal maple leafs 1066 0 3 8 \( 99 \) 97 1020 1 76 1 \( 105 \) 98 bsc 1067 1132 1 7 1 \( 102 \) 99 1018 1 42 1 \( 97 \) 100 ellis islanders 1055 5 7 6 \( 100 \) 101 1053 4 6 1 \( 95 \) 102 1049 1122 8 2 9 \( 101 \) 103 zachmans wingers 1006 7 49 8 \( 103 \) 104 1001 1114 6 72 6 \( 96 \) 105 dirty white socks 1008 1113 6 43 4 \( 106 \) 106 hurricane andrew 1040 1113 5 7 6 \( 104 \) 107 larry 1034 1113 2 11 8 \( 109 \) 108 1010 1108 5 31 8 \( 108 \) bruce 's rented mules 1033 1108 5 11 9 \( 110 \) 110 king 1042 1108 2 0 1 \( 112 \) 111 teem kanada 1030 1105 3 16 0 \( 115 \) 112 bjoern leaguen 987 7 61 4 \( 123 \) 113 frank 's follies 1020 1101 2 24 2 \( 117 \) 114 neil younger 985 1100 9 77 7 \( 120 \) 115 het schot hard 1027 1100 8 18 1 \( 121 \) 116 dartmouth 1033 1100 7 7 1 \( 107 \) 117 pond slime 1034 1096 8 0 7 \( 111 \) 118 stanford ice hawks 1008 1096 5 28 2 \( 114 \) 119 1019 1096 4 12 6 \( 113 \) 120 mark sanders 1020 1091 9 11 1 \( 116 \) 121 oklahoma 1089 9 28 3 \( 137 \) 122 timo ojala 1015 1084 2 0 3 \( 130 \) 123 nesbitt 1025 1083 0 1 1 \( 118 \) 124 aye ! ! ! 1016 1082 4 3 9 \( 124 \) 125 bunnies 976 2 40 3 \( 119 \) 126 blue talon 1007 1080 0 13 3 \( 129 \) 127 fuzzfaces 1001 1078 3 23 3 \( 125 \) 128 1013 1077 8 7 3 \( 122 \) 129 team 995 1076 5 17 1 \( 126 \) 130 late night david letterman 1013 1075 3 0 0 \( 133 \) 131 arctic circles 974 1075 2 37 6 \( 132 \) 132 lost 1000 9 6 7 \( 127 \) seattle 988 9 22 9 \( 134 \) 134 92 93 987 1071 5 20 0 \( 135 \) 135 dirty rotten 1001 1071 2 1 2 \( 147 \) 136 flying 998 1069 8 9 1 \( 130 \) cluster buster 996 1069 8 7 6 \( 136 \) 138 scott glenn 999 1068 7 10 2 \( 142 \) 139 hobbs 988 1068 5 13 4 \( 146 \) 140 go bruins 999 1066 6 6 2 \( 144 \) 141 le groupe mi 975 1065 4 30 2 \( 141 \) 142 team gold 992 1065 1 16 7 \( 128 \) 143 closet boy 's boys 955 1063 4 48 0 \( 140 \) 144 gary bill pens dynasty 982 1063 2 19 6 \( 151 \) rocks rockers 998 1063 2 5 1 \( 151 \) 146 tim rogers 987 1061 9 8 1 \( 148 \) 147 andy f wong 982 1061 1 21 5 \( 143 \) 148 947 1059 6 46 0 \( 145 \) 149 bob 's blues 951 1059 2 46 8 \( 139 \) 150 princeton canucks 945 1058 9 124 2 \( 154 \) 151 go habs go 989 1058 7 8 0 \( 149 \) 152 998 1057 6 0 3 \( 157 \) 153 wild hearted sons 993 1057 5 4 9 \( 138 \) 154 einstein 's rock band 994 1054 8 0 0 \( 160 \) 155 tap 989 1053 0 0 5 \( 150 \) 156 goddess fermentation 964 0 30 2 \( 156 \) 157 hunters collectors 945 1050 6 42 4 \( 163 \) 158 dr joel 985 1048 7 3 7 \( 159 \) 159 983 1048 6 3 6 \( 153 \) 160 convex stars 979 1047 9 5 6 \( 161 \) 161 les nordiques 939 1046 9 60 4 \( 155 \) 162 team 932 1045 3 174 8 \( 167 \) 163 hubert 's hockey 980 1043 9 0 6 \( 162 \) book 'em 's 977 1043 9 10 5 \( 169 \) 165 riding pine 956 1038 7 20 7 \( 158 \) 166 975 1037 1 0 4 \( 166 \) 167 jeff 927 1037 0 48 8 \( 172 \) 168 slap shot marco 930 1036 0 51 8 \( 164 \) 169 daryl turner 976 1035 8 2 4 \( 179 \) 170 921 1033 1 63 7 \( 180 \) 171 east city jokers 919 1031 6 69 1 \( 173 \) 172 flowers 921 1031 4 113 6 \( 168 \) 173 satan 's choice 961 1030 1 14 5 \( 171 \) 174 leafs rule ! ! ! ! 943 1030 0 25 8 \( 165 \) 175 pierre 969 1029 9 2 6 \( 174 \) 176 968 1029 4 2 7 \( 170 \) 177 spinal tap 928 1029 1 41 4 \( 176 \) 178 san jose mahi mahi 939 1026 7 31 8 \( 185 \) stimpy zeta 949 1026 7 21 0 \( 182 \) 180 jeff 916 1024 7 46 7 \( 175 \) 181 941 1024 5 23 4 \( 184 \) 182 inc 940 1021 0 27 3 \( 177 \) 183 big bad bruins 939 1020 6 18 5 \( 186 \) 184 mike mac cormack sydney ns 904 1019 1 107 2 \( 183 \) 185 darse billings 925 1017 8 34 7 \( 178 \) 186 's 934 1017 6 24 0 \( 181 \) 187 903 5 179 0 \( 192 \) 188 republican dirty 894 1008 0 66 0 \( 189 \) 189 enforcers 924 1007 8 28 1 \( 191 \) 190 lehigh 937 1007 7 8 9 \( 190 \) 191 yellow plague 933 1005 0 14 2 \( 187 \) 192 dr 929 1003 8 17 1 \( 198 \) 193 bunch misfits 916 1003 3 23 8 \( 188 \) 194 ninja turtles 942 1000 8 1 3 \( 194 \) 195 great expectations 934 999 3 2 3 \( 196 \) 196 cherry bombers 939 998 1 1 2 \( 200 \) 197 henry 's bar b q 941 998 0 0 7 \( 195 \) 198 team 907 993 5 30 0 \( 198 \) 199 team 891 991 8 46 9 \( 202 \) 200 umpire 4 life 919 990 9 11 1 \( 193 \) 201 914 988 9 18 3 \( 197 \) 202 894 988 2 37 6 \( 207 \) 203 firebirds 926 986 5 3 9 \( 201 \) 204 jayson 's pucks 904 986 1 26 9 \( 203 \) 205 cobra 's killers 891 982 5 31 7 \( 208 \) 206 outlaws 871 981 6 164 9 \( 206 \) 207 981 5 18 5 \( 204 \) 208 killer apes 902 979 9 24 3 \( 205 \) 209 dragons 896 979 4 28 3 \( 211 \) 210 roger smith 882 978 2 39 6 \( 212 \) 211 1st weeks hurt ! 862 975 1 55 9 \( 210 \) 212 thundering herd 860 972 8 163 6 \( 218 \) 213 wholesale 910 970 2 1 7 \( 214 \) 214 believe dont 895 968 7 21 1 \( 215 \) 215 fred 861 966 8 93 0 \( 217 \) 216 400 hurricane 880 966 4 32 1 \( 216 \) 217 creeping death 886 965 0 21 3 \( 220 \) 218 knee injuries 897 964 9 10 4 \( 213 \) 219 200 club 902 964 7 6 8 \( 209 \) 220 crazy euros 888 962 1 17 9 \( 219 \) 221 frack attack 875 961 8 27 3 \( 226 \) 222 todd 's turkeys 898 957 0 1 9 \( 229 \) 223 ryan 's renegades 858 956 4 50 9 \( 225 \) 224 crew 862 955 9 38 3 \( 222 \) 225 pig vomit 894 955 2 1 3 \( 227 \) 226 ice 848 954 4 105 4 \( 221 \) 227 fighting 850 954 1 141 6 \( 223 \) 228 cdn stuck alabama 886 945 7 10 3 \( 231 \) 229 ship 's way 884 943 4 8 7 \( 233 \) 230 870 942 8 18 7 \( 228 \) 231 oz 851 941 8 35 0 \( 235 \) 232 chris death 835 939 3 83 6 \( 234 \) 233 banko 's beer rangers 875 938 6 4 2 \( 230 \) 234 ny flames 872 938 1 7 8 \( 232 \) 235 ii 828 937 4 201 6 \( 237 \) 236 dayton bomber 882 935 1 0 0 \( 241 \) 237 zipper heads 847 931 7 33 9 \( 224 \) 238 ninja bunnies 826 928 1 44 9 \( 236 \) 239 joliet inmates 832 926 0 45 8 \( 239 \) 240 white wolves 832 924 1 36 9 \( 242 \) 241 daves team 834 920 9 32 0 \( 238 \) 242 great scott 814 917 8 73 3 \( 240 \) 243 south carolina tiger paws 806 915 1 78 4 \( 243 \) 244 sabres 854 910 8 4 7 \( 245 \) 245 florida tech team 809 904 6 49 3 \( 250 \) 246 ice holes 850 903 9 2 7 \( 246 \) 247 blue chips 845 902 9 10 4 \( 244 \) 248 xtc 837 897 8 8 2 \( 248 \) 249 roadrunners 826 895 9 18 5 \( 249 \) 250 kings 816 894 0 27 6 \( 251 \) 251 820 890 8 15 9 \( 253 \) 252 pat phillips 827 889 1 10 1 \( 247 \) 253 new jersey rob 835 883 0 0 7 \( 252 \) 254 stewart clamen 821 869 4 1 6 \( 255 \) 255 demon spawn 782 860 1 25 0 \( 254 \) 256 sunnyvale storm 772 813 5 0 2 \( 256 \) 257 allez les blues 713 810 7 476 9 \( 257 \) 258 sale hockey club 725 795 0 23 0 \( 260 \) 259 picks 689 788 1 168 5 \( 258 \) 260 rinaco 682 781 6 114 0 \( 259 \) 261 revenge 669 718 5 4 0 \( 261 \) 262 riga 571 663 8 571 6 \( 262 \) andrew scott andrew idacom hp com hp idacom telecom operation \( 403 \) 462 0666 ext 253 roman era , 28 considered old
andrew idacom hp com \( andrew scott \) subject usenet hockey draft week 26 price list organization hewlett packard , idacom telecommunications division lines 264 price list week april 6 april 12 andrew buy sell pts team player 157 5 141 8 150 pit mario lemieux 152 1 136 9 143 buf pat lafontaine 139 3 125 4 131 bos adam oates 133 8 120 4 129 det steve yzerman 132 9 119 6 125 wpg teemu selanne 132 9 119 6 125 tor doug gilmour 130 9 117 8 120 nyi pierre turgeon 129 7 116 7 122 buf alexander mogilny 126 0 113 4 117 phi mark recchi 120 2 108 2 113 la luc robitaille 115 9 104 3 109 que mats sundin 111 3 100 2 106 pit kevin stevens 108 5 97 7 102 stl craig janney 108 5 97 7 102 van pavel bure 106 3 95 7 100 chi jeremy roenick 105 3 94 8 99 que joe sakic 104 0 93 6 99 pit rick tocchet 103 1 92 8 97 stl brett hull 102 1 91 9 96 bos joe juneau 102 1 91 9 96 tor dave andreychuk 101 9 91 7 97 pit ron francis 99 8 89 8 95 mtl vincent damphousse 98 9 89 0 93 min mike modano 98 9 89 0 93 wpg phil housley 98 9 89 0 93 cgy theoren fleury 97 8 88 0 92 buf dale hawerchuk 97 7 87 9 93 mtl kirk muller 96 0 86 4 88 nyr mark messier 94 6 85 1 89 stl brendan shanahan 94 4 85 0 91 det dino ciccarelli 91 4 82 3 86 la jari kurri 91 4 82 3 87 pit jaromir jagr 90 3 81 3 86 mtl brian bellows 88 3 79 5 82 wsh peter bondra 87 3 78 6 80 hfd geoff sanderson 87 2 78 5 82 cgy robert reichel 87 2 78 5 82 que steve duchesne 87 1 78 4 84 det paul coffey 86 1 77 5 83 det sergei fedorov 85 1 76 6 79 tb brian bradley 85 1 76 6 79 phi rod brind'amour 85 1 76 6 81 pit larry murphy 84 0 75 6 77 hfd andrew cassels 84 0 75 6 77 hfd pat verbeek 84 0 75 6 79 la tony granato 84 0 75 6 78 wsh mike ridley 84 0 75 6 77 nyi steve thomas 83 0 74 7 79 mtl stephan lebeau 81 8 73 6 76 wsh dale hunter 80 8 72 7 76 que mike ricci 80 8 72 7 76 bos ray bourque 78 6 70 7 73 wsh kevin hatcher 77 7 69 9 74 sj kelly kisio 77 6 69 8 73 van cliff ronning 77 6 69 8 73 stl jeff brown 77 6 69 8 73 tor nikolai borschevsky 76 6 68 9 72 nj claude lemieux 76 6 68 9 72 min dave gagner 76 6 68 9 72 min russ courtnall 76 4 68 8 70 nyr tony amonte 75 5 68 0 71 van murray craven 75 5 68 0 71 la jimmy carson 75 5 68 0 71 cgy gary suter 75 5 68 0 71 min ulf dahlen 74 4 67 0 70 van geoff courtnall 74 4 67 0 70 bos dmitri kvartalnov 74 3 66 9 69 wsh michal pivonka 74 2 66 8 68 nyi derek king 74 2 66 8 68 nyi benoit hogue 73 4 66 1 69 que owen nolan 73 4 66 1 69 chi steve larmer 73 4 66 1 69 nj alexander semak 73 1 65 8 67 nyr mike gartner 72 3 65 1 68 stl nelson emerson 72 3 65 1 68 chi chris chelios 72 2 65 0 67 phi eric lindros 71 1 64 0 66 wsh al iafrate 70 2 63 2 66 van trevor linden 70 2 63 2 66 la mike donnelly 70 0 63 0 65 wsh dmitri khristich 69 3 62 4 66 pit joe mullen 69 1 62 2 65 cgy joe nieuwendyk 69 1 62 2 65 nj stephane richer 68 1 61 3 64 wpg alexei zhamnov 68 1 61 3 64 wpg thomas steen 68 1 61 3 64 que andrei kovalenko 68 1 61 3 64 van petr nedved 66 5 59 9 61 nyr adam graves 66 5 59 9 61 hfd zalapski 66 4 59 8 64 det ray sheppard 64 9 58 4 61 tor glenn anderson 64 1 57 7 61 sj johan garpenlov 63 8 57 4 60 ott norm maciver 63 0 56 7 60 mtl mike keane 63 0 56 7 60 pit shawn mceachern 62 7 56 4 59 la rob blake 62 7 56 4 59 la wayne gretzky 62 5 56 3 58 phi garry galley 62 5 56 3 58 phi brent fedyk 61 1 55 0 56 nyi pat flatley 60 6 54 5 57 cgy sergei makarov 60 6 54 5 57 nj bernie nicholls 60 1 54 1 58 det steve chiasson 59 5 53 6 56 chi steve smith 59 5 53 6 56 que scott young 59 1 53 2 57 det paul ysebaert 58 9 53 0 54 nyr sergei nemchinov 58 5 52 7 55 nj valeri zelepukin 58 2 52 4 54 wsh pat elynuik 58 2 52 4 54 tb john tucker 58 2 52 4 54 phi kevin dineen 57 4 51 7 54 van greg adams 56 4 50 8 53 wpg darrin shannon 55 6 50 0 51 nyr darren turcotte 55 3 49 8 52 nj scott stevens 55 0 48 8 51 chi christian ruuttu 55 0 48 8 51 van dixon ward 55 0 48 8 51 wpg fredrik olausson 55 0 48 2 49 nyr ed olczyk 55 0 47 9 50 wpg keith tkachuk 55 0 47 2 48 nyi jeff norton 55 0 46 9 49 tor john cullen 55 0 46 9 49 van semenov 55 0 46 9 49 cgy al macinnis 55 0 46 9 49 bos stephen leach 55 0 45 9 48 chi brent sutter 55 0 45 4 48 mtl denis savard 55 0 45 2 46 hfd terry yake 55 0 45 0 47 nj john maclean 55 0 44 6 46 wsh sylvain cote 55 0 44 0 46 edm petr klima 55 0 44 0 46 edm shayne corson 55 0 44 0 46 la tomas sandstrom 55 0 44 0 46 edm craig simpson 55 0 43 5 46 mtl gilbert dionne 55 0 43 2 44 nyi vladimir malakhov 55 0 43 0 45 bos dave poulin 55 0 43 0 45 stl kevin miller 55 0 43 0 45 la alexei zhitnik 55 0 43 0 45 que martin rucinsky 55 0 43 0 45 wpg davydov 55 0 42 7 44 wsh kelly miller 55 0 42 1 44 edm doug weight 55 0 42 1 44 edm dave manson 55 0 41 2 42 hfd patrick poulin 55 0 41 1 43 chi michel goulet 55 0 40 7 42 phi pelle eklund 55 0 40 2 42 min mark tinordi 55 0 39 7 42 mtl schneider 55 0 39 2 41 cgy paul ranheim 55 0 39 2 41 edm todd elik 55 0 39 2 41 bos vladimir ruzicka 55 0 39 2 41 ott sylvain turgeon 55 0 37 4 39 tor dave ellett 55 0 37 4 40 det lidstrom 55 0 37 4 40 det bob probert 55 0 36 4 38 nj peter stastny 55 0 36 4 37 nyr esa tikkanen 55 0 36 4 38 ott brad shaw 55 0 36 4 38 tor wendel clark 55 0 36 4 38 buf yuri khmylev 55 0 35 4 37 van sergio momesso 55 0 35 4 37 ott bob kudelski 55 0 35 4 36 nyr brian leetch 55 0 35 4 37 nj bobby holik 55 0 34 5 36 tor rob pearson 55 0 34 5 36 min mike mcphee 55 0 34 4 35 nyr alexei kovalev 55 0 33 9 35 tb adam creighton 55 0 33 5 35 edm ciger 55 0 32 6 34 la corey millen 55 0 32 6 34 chi dirk graham 55 0 31 6 33 tor peter zezel 55 0 30 6 32 bos ted donato 55 0 30 6 32 que valery kamensky 55 0 30 2 32 mtl gary leeman 55 0 29 9 32 det keith primeau 55 0 29 7 31 buf wayne presley 55 0 29 7 31 min neal broten 55 0 29 7 31 bos steve heinze 55 0 29 1 30 phi josef beranek 55 0 28 7 30 chi stephane matteau 55 0 28 7 30 buf richard smehlik 55 0 28 7 30 tor dmitri mironov 55 0 28 4 29 nyi brian mullen 55 0 27 2 28 phi dmitri yushkevich 55 0 26 8 28 chi brian noonan 55 0 26 8 28 edm scott mellanby 55 0 26 5 28 sj pat falloon 55 0 25 8 27 stl igor korolev 55 0 25 6 26 nyr james patrick 55 0 24 8 26 buf petr svoboda 55 0 23 9 25 ott mark lamb 55 0 23 2 24 tb mikael andersson 55 0 22 6 23 nyi scott lachance 55 0 22 1 23 edm kevin todd 55 0 21 3 22 wsh bob carpenter 55 0 21 1 22 tor bill berg 55 0 21 1 22 wpg sergei bautin 55 0 20 8 22 mtl benoit brunet 55 0 20 6 21 nyi david 55 0 20 6 21 hfd mikael nylander 55 0 20 1 21 min brent gilchrist 55 0 19 6 20 nyr phil bourque 55 0 19 6 20 nyi ray ferraro 55 0 18 6 19 hfd yvon corriveau 55 0 18 2 19 edm martin gelinas 55 0 17 7 19 det jim hiller 55 0 17 6 18 nyi darius kasparaitis 55 0 17 5 18 phi andrei lomakin 55 0 17 2 18 buf donald audette 55 0 15 5 16 tb roman hamrlik 55 0 15 1 16 sj mark pederson 55 0 14 2 15 pit martin straka 55 0 12 4 13 nj 55 0 12 4 13 ott tomas jelinek 55 0 11 5 12 chi joe murphy 55 0 10 8 11 nyr peter andersson 55 0 10 6 11 tb steve kasper 55 0 10 5 11 bos cam neely 55 0 9 5 10 min bobby smith 55 0 9 5 10 sj ray whitney 55 0 8 8 9 hfd robert petrovicky 55 0 8 6 9 buf viktor 55 0 7 7 8 que mikhail 55 0 7 7 8 tor joe sacco 55 0 7 6 8 sj peter ahola 55 0 6 7 7 chi rob brown 55 0 6 7 7 bos glen murray 55 0 5 9 6 hfd tim kerr 55 0 4 9 5 wsh reggie savage 55 0 4 8 5 stl 55 0 4 8 5 la robert lang 55 0 4 8 5 edm shaun van allen 55 0 3 9 4 bos jozef 55 0 3 9 4 min dan quinn 55 0 3 8 4 pit bryan fogarty 55 0 3 7 4 det viacheslav kozlov 55 0 2 9 3 tb stan 55 0 2 9 3 min brian propp 55 0 2 9 3 mtl olav 55 0 2 0 2 wsh jason woolley 55 0 1 9 2 nj claude 55 0 0 0 0 van igor 55 0 0 0 0 tb brent gretzky 55 0 0 0 0 ott alexei yashin 55 0 0 0 0 que peter forsberg 55 0 0 0 0 edm dean 55 0 0 0 0 wsh brian sakic 55 0 0 0 0 wsh randy burridge 55 0 0 0 0 mtl patrick 55 0 0 0 0 cgy cory stillman 55 0 0 0 0 chi sergei 55 0 0 0 0 buf jason dawe andrew scott andrew idacom hp com hp idacom telecom operation \( 403 \) 462 0666 ext 253 roman era , 28 considered old
andrew idacom hp com \( andrew scott \) subject usenet playoff pool organization idacom , division hewlett packard lines 15 've mentioned rules posting , town day entry deadline , wo n't able respond messages april 18 would grateful someone could repost rules instructions playoff pool sometime next week , benefit missed first two postings thanks andrew scott andrew idacom hp com hp idacom telecom operation \( 403 \) 462 0666 ext 253 roman era , 28 considered old
tnclus tele nokia fi subject many europeans nhl lines 18 nntp posting host tele nokia fi organization nokia telecommunications article rauser 734062608 sfu ca , rauser fraser sfu ca \( richard john rauser \) writes 's point far many europeans nhl sick watching game american canadian team \( let 's say , red wings canucks \) seeing names like bure konstantinov borshevshky north america n't \? toronto , detriot , quebec , edmonton particularly annoying , numbers euros teams getting worse well i'm sick watching american names like gretzky etc names accept \? sitting bull dances wolves \? north america \?
hahietanen tnclus tele nokia fi subject tps stay top lines 23 nntp posting host tele nokia fi organization nokia telecommunications mighty ones get tps , finnish champions 1992 3 , getting still stronger ! heard news , according tps acquired next finnish hockey superstar \( \? \? \) espoo ! also rumours erik \( \) marko \( \) traded tps players currently finnish olympic team think drafted nhl , btw juha yl nen \( centre , hpk \) drafted jets \? \? last year reached top level among finnish centres good playoff games tps ! hannu go jets go ! teemu ! teppo ! tappara canadiens blackhawks
lion wpi edu \( peter bruce harper \) subject personal ulf organization worcester polytechnic institute lines 22 distribution world nntp posting host lion wpi edu dear ulf , would possibly consider canadiens fans everywhere throwing knee check direction denis savard upcoming game montreal \? ca n't seem win ! thanx alot , pete h \) ! pete harper ! baby , baby n't hesitate 'cause ca n't wait ! ! wpi wpi edu ! lady get knees , ! ! ! please ! ! u harper jake wpi edu ! come love ! ! ! ! skid row , come love !
r turgeo oz plymouth edu \( randy turgeon \) subject division zero error jack tournament golf article oz 1993apr6 reply r turgeo oz plymouth edu \( randy turgeon \) organization plymouth state college plymouth , n h lines 17 playing golf game something interesting happened 7th hole , drove ball , ball mid flight , game completely froze couple seconds later , screen went completely black , error message large bubble letters said division zero thought funny considering computer programmer , never seen error like actual video game system like sega nintendo \( even atari years ago \) oh yeah , message , also must address , forget exact hex code given happened anyone else \? \? \? must , game n't one thanks randy psc r turgeo oz plymouth edu
kkeller mail sas upenn edu \( keith keller \) subject observations article netnews distribution na organization university pennsylvania , school arts sciences lines 33 nntp posting host mail sas upenn edu lindros trade like ottawa would stupid enough get lindros think quebec traded \? lindros would go personal strike maybe talk ottawa arranging trade \) thankfully nobody agreed publicly maybe look baseball , supposed american \( sp \? \) look damn latin americans playing ! deported ! n't american ! \( add sarcasm taste \) roger wow , agree hope n't sign things come 'll become ranting lunatic talks nothing leafs best campbell \) rangers told someone nothing happened patrick would surprise anymore lied hell team go washington , earn shutout , come back home lose pitiful hartford \? absolute pinnacle mediocrity ca n't stand 've read , goalie blame time , beezer played pretty poorly smith talking calling corey hirsch binghamton , everybody pointing fingers definitely team wanted prove washington nothing happens patrick surprise \( yeah , right \) keith keller let's go rangers ! ! ! ! ! let's go quakers ! ! ! ! ! kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs ! ! ! ! next time go head , 'll platter cmdr benjamin , 1993
mjr4u virginia edu \( matthew j rush \) subject sad day hockey article virginia 1993apr6 212 organization university virginia lines 50 dvb ick writes 1 foul \( illegal contact player stick body stick \) get 5 game 've never seen game one player committed 5 penalties something like would require attention referee 2 unsportsmanlike contact \( intentional foul \) current flavours roughing , fighting boarding get two thrown game , fined 3 technical foul bad mouthing ref , player coach penalty shot awarded two thrown game besides penalty shot one technical , team gets 5 penalties period , opposing team gets penalty shot every additional one , end period victim gets two shots act shooting foul works well several reasons first , penalty shots exciting thing hockey , right \? , follows better next , player setting penalty shot , network take commercial finally , three penalties , network announcers \( meredith , dick vitale , john madden , pat , levy , among others \) able tell viewers happened pa announcer says 're creating scoring opportunity might one see relationship free throws awarded certain number , 's obviously easier score basketball , opportunities basketball team scores 100 points , 's least fifty chances made average number shots taken team hockey game \( total guess \) probably around 40 , team lucky maybe 5 good ideas concerning penalties , think player awarded penalty shot chance score interfered also , later post , talked boring nba game attended , play stopped often would n't penalty shot rule take time hockey game \? matt att uva
ayari loria fr \( ayari iskander \) subject lemieux , , thoughts organization crin inria lorraine lines 16 think 93 best video game available course many things could done better , really appreciate names players real ones , matter lacks logos still playing since november leading different teams finals making scorers team compete top scoring yesterday title using toronto hartford \( 4 games two \) , played playoffs 7 games fashion \( 5 minutes period \) best scorer shooter gilmour \( 116 shots remember well \) iskander ayari email iskander ayari loria fr ou ayari loria fr
joe13 pitt edu \( joseph b stiehm \) subject year 's biggest worst \( opinion \) keywords nhl , awards article blue organization university pittsburgh lines 93 article 1993apr6 morgan com scairns fsg com writes mvp surprise disappointment new york rangers messier kovalev bourque gartner zubov bourque bourque penguin 's gm must laugh head every time thinks rangers loser scott email scairns fsg com fusion systems group usmail 225 broadway , 24th fl new york , new york , usa new york , ny standard disclaimers apply hope future americans thought , vicious people , bet lot high schools would pick jack handey please care phil liked lot pittsburgh n't score lot look stats last year worked butt speed created opportunities offensive zone allowed pens utilize potential n't paying attention year ca n't say know 're objecting injuries though , n't \? offense n't , 's much speed like said , created opportunities n't score much thought money offered rangers little high , pens , guess joseph stiehm article 1993apr6 morgan com scairns fsg com writes mvp surprise disappointment new york rangers messier kovalev bourque gartner zubov bourque bourque penguin 's gm must laugh head every time thinks rangers loser scott email scairns fsg com fusion systems group usmail 225 broadway , 24th fl new york , new york , usa new york , ny standard disclaimers apply hope future americans thought , vicious people , bet lot high schools would pick jack handey please care phil liked lot pittsburgh n't score lot look stats last year worked butt speed created opportunities offensive zone allowed pens utilize potential n't paying attention year ca n't say know 're objecting injuries though , n't \? offense n't , 's much speed like said , created opportunities n't score much thought money offered rangers little high , pens , guess joseph stiehm
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject many europeans nhl article alchemy 1993apr6 organization university toronto chemistry department lines 24 article 1993apr6 adobe com snichols adobe com \( sherri nichols \) writes article 1993apr6 alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) writes anyways , crawl back hole crawled nba n't care get basketball players , major league baseball n't give damn get baseball players \( except cuba , \) mlb perfectly willing take players cuba defect first sort like situation used russian czech etc hockey players , political situation countries changed major league baseball told blue jays expos sign oscar \( think name \) canada restrictions cubans us major league teams told canadian teams would unhappy expos blue jays would cubans players would defect play canada could play 81 home games expos blue jays without trouble gerald
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject year 's biggest worst \( opinion \) keywords nhl , awards article alchemy 1993apr6 organization university toronto chemistry department lines 33 article 1993apr6 morgan com scairns fsg com writes messier joke year bad back withstanding play reason rangers golf course couple weeks gartner choice guy works butt every game kovalev surprise 's played adequately bad defensively kovalev talented player play roger roger needs players ca n't think skate straight lines ice two coaches bad enough league take talents like mogilny kovalev know turn bure selanne predicted preseason perhaps 'll pull alex mogilny couple years surprise us zubov n't expected make minors season number injuries , proved pleasant surprise get muckler coach , kovalev look like mogilny trouble rangers neil smith went got players like messier , kovalev , graves schooled taking game opponent attacking , hiring coaches interested rope dope strategies want roger world coach n't go get mark messier , old dog ca n't learn new tricks known loser , n't waste draft picks players like kovalev gerald gerald
snichols adobe com \( sherri nichols \) subject many europeans nhl article adobe 1993apr6 840 organization adobe systems incorporated lines 24 article 1993apr6 alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) writes major league baseball told blue jays expos sign oscar \( think name \) pointed , mlb requires player defect first canada restrictions cubans us major league teams told canadian teams would unhappy expos blue jays would surprise long pool talent accessible teams , mlb wo n't let teams sign seems perfectly reasonable cubans players would defect play canada could play 81 home games expos blue jays without trouble except mlb wo n't allow , ever said sherri nichols snichols adobe com
lmsc5 lmsc lockheed com subject lindros traded ! ! ! article lmsc5 93096 organization lockheed missiles space company , inc lines 19 1993apr5 576 r node hub org , jay chu writes true rumor fact ! big three way deal ! eric lindros going ottawa senators senators get montreal montreal gets alexander daigle \( first round pick senators \) philly gets damphousse , bellow , patrick roy draft pick sheesh rumor mill strikes let 's assume true question would montreal give san jose sharks got first pick took daigle \? tim irvin
kkeller mail sas upenn edu \( keith keller \) subject sad day hockey article netnews organization university pennsylvania , school arts sciences lines 39 nntp posting host mail sas upenn edu article abyss west sun com dvb ick \( david van beveren \) writes ! since penalties fall three classes , three penalties 1 foul \( illegal contact player stick body stick \) get 5 game 2 unsportsmanlike contact \( intentional foul \) current flavours roughing , fighting boarding get two thrown game , fined 3 technical foul bad mouthing ref , player coach penalty shot awarded two thrown game besides penalty shot one technical , team gets 5 penalties period , opposing team gets penalty shot every additional one , end period victim gets two shots act shooting foul new rule changes great ! however , think rules much complicated normal average fan able count many player \? would even remember names players , order determine drew foul ! , course , new sub positions , like power center sits slot \( blue , course \) puck comes near , shooting defenseman point defenseman finally , 'll able keep stats best worst penalty shot takers since almost everyone ice getting fouled , 'll able see ulf \( sp \? \) tie domi miss penalty shots like crazy \) \) \) keith keller let's go rangers ! ! ! ! ! let's go quakers ! ! ! ! ! kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs ! ! ! ! next time go head , 'll platter cmdr benjamin , 1993
dvb ick \( david van beveren \) subject year 's biggest worst \( opinion \) article abyss distribution world organization sunsoft inc , los angeles , ca lines 25 nntp posting host ick x newsreader tin 1 1 pl3 assist orion oac uci edu \( assist coordination site \) writes article c4zcii ftn watserv1 uwaterloo ca smale healthy uwaterloo ca \( bryan smale \) writes mvp biggest biggest suprise disappointment los angeles kings robitaille donnelly hrudey would chosen alex zhitnik biggest suprise expect would become great defenseman , n't think anyone knew going impressive rookie year speed , skating ability , puck control exceptional one watch kings agree , marty warren rychel running close second third surprised people noted knickle biggest surprise , even though personally really rate well biggest disappointment carson though really unfair , since much expected second biggest disappointment melrose , adolescent handling goaltending problems putting hrudey bench month stupid contribute team coming slump mvp surely robitaille dvb
kkeller mail sas upenn edu \( keith keller \) subject new name stanley cup organization university pennsylvania , school arts sciences lines 56 nntp posting host mail sas upenn edu article 1993apr2 sol ctr columbia edu phoenix startide ctr columbia edu \( ali lemer \) writes course need new position names unable remember complicated hockey terminology old name new name centre guy middle left wing guy left right wing guy right defenceman guy back goaltender guy net \( cage , mother calls \) referee guy whistle linesman guy arms coach guy suit gm head guy puck black thing red line line middle blue line line side crease place front guy net faceoff circle round thing stand slot point \( must point accompany term \) bench place sit penalty box place sit 're bad mr bettman guy wrong sport mr stein guy charge n't course , also need new names individual awards , stuff like president 's cup president 's cup trophy given best regular season team hart winner valuable player , chosen guys middle , guys right , guys left , guys back , guy net , though typically given guys middle guys left right norris winner best guy back , guy awarded something even though one guys middle left right ad nauseum \) keith keller let's go rangers ! ! ! ! ! let's go quakers ! ! ! ! ! kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs ! ! ! ! next time go head , 'll platter cmdr benjamin , 1993
subject paul canadian world team apland mala bc ca organization malaspina college lines 6 heard last night paul playing canadian world hockey team year local radio station friend called congratulate invitation paul told host n't think wanted yet morning heard destined play line lindros unsure one plays well arena , could go 1 2 draft
subject jets fans ! hrivnak tabaracci \? \? gtd597a prism gatech edu \( hrivnak \) organization georgia institute technology lines 14 article 1993apr6 wam umd edu giant wam umd edu \( \) writes seeing hrivnak play , would prefer \? tyler \? ever happened \? \? know answer hrivnak ! choice obvious go skins ! next question emotional music quite go braves ! effect \? mike patton , faith go hornets ! go capitals ! mike friedman \( hrivnak fan ! \) internet gtd597a prism gatech edu
fmsalvat eos ncsu edu \( frank michae salvatore \) subject jets fans ! hrivnak tabaracci \? \? article ncsu 1993apr6 reply fmsalvat eos ncsu edu \( frank michae salvatore \) organization north carolina state university , project eos lines 22 originator fmsalvat eos ncsu edu seeing hrivnak play , would prefer \? tyler \? ever happened \? \? know answer hrivnak ! choice obvious ok , seen tabaracci play yet \? two starts relief effort beaupre , looked mighty sharp n't forget shutout think 's let four goals eight periods play like hrivnak , might actually give credit david change trade hopefully tabaracci starts isles tonight , n't frank salvatore fmsalvat eos ncsu edu
steveg cadkey com \( steve gallichio \) subject year 's biggest worst \( opinion \) keywords nhl , awards article access organization cadkey , inc lines 53 nntp posting host access digex net bryan smale \( smale healthy uwaterloo ca \) writes thinking teams mvps , biggest surprises , biggest year team biggest biggest team mvp surprise disappointment hartford whalers sanderson corriveau votes \( fwiw \) team mvp pat verbeek fans 25 goal mouth feeds , still 36 goals terrible start \( sp \? \) team captain throughout tough couple seasons honorable mention nick mark janssens probably appropriate heroes category mvp , \( 17 goals , 320 pim \) hardest working player team janssens underrated defensive center checker guess place greater emphasis hard work skill determining value biggest surprise geoff sanderson 13 goals 31 points last season center , moved left wing far put 45 goals 80 points new whaler record 21 power play goals , coming right wing faceoff circle , garden spot honorable mention andrew cassels terry yake kiddie sanderson , poulin , nylander , petrovicky attracting attention , cassels 23 score close 90 points season quite nicely assumed role number one center team works well sanderson yake bounced around minors number seasons still 24 put 20 goals 50 points season yake , like sanderson , started performing better offensively converted center wing , although lefty sanderson went left wing righty yake went right side biggest disappointment hands , john cullen cullen 77 point season last year , first full season trade cullen started season summer back surgery , fell flat face \( appropriate , since spent whaler career flat ass , whining \) cullen scored 9 point 19 games , clubhouse , commanded powerplay 9 success percentage \( 21 sanderson \) , way town worst , 4 year , 4m contract three years left run , one would give 2nd round draft pick maple leafs offered hartford honorable mention steve , also signing 3 year , 2 1m contract eric weinrich , showed flashes competence , overall played poorly jim mckenzie , much better hockey player two seasons ago frank pietrangelo , seemed play well sean burke extended period got make number starts row sg \( real live hartford whalers season ticket holder \) steveg cadkey com
organization ryerson polytechnical institute distribution na raj ryevm ryerson ca subject maple leafs update lines 8 leaf fans concerned , following players slated return thursday 's winnipeg toronto game peter zezel , john cullen mark osborne dave ellett questionable return thursday regular players injured \( including mironov \) back saturday 's home game flyers
lmsc5 lmsc lockheed com subject faq crash newsreader \? organization lockheed missiles space company , inc lines 9 r h faq sheet never fails crash newsreader way avoid crashing \( restarting machine \) look headers avoid reading faq anyone else problems reading faq \? tim irvin season near merciful end
pub utk edu \( \) subject testing ! ! ! organization university tennessee computing center testing ! ! distribution usa lines 1
bnr ca \( paul valin \) subject canadiens another stanley cup \? \? \? nntp posting host organization bell northern research ltd lines 31 article 1993apr6 ramsey cs laurentian ca , maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) wrote rauser sfu ca rauser fraser sfu ca \( richard john rauser \) writes pereira cam org \( dean pereira \) writes kind team montreal , take cup easily problem right everyone trying steal show play alone need massive teamwork known savard syndrome talking denis , serge team ever win squat likes denis savard lineup could tell savard stay home watch games tv life simple ! savard played three last four games still playing like crap montreal 's problems run deeper savard \( \) unfortunately hope get act together playoffs line game coming pittsburgh said one 're likely use playoffs let 's hope forget nice weather 're play hockey paul valin tel 1 613 763 bell northern research ltd email bnr ca p box 3511 , station c ottawa , ontario , canada k1y 4h7 'only opinions '
umturne4 ccu umanitoba ca \( daryl turner \) subject many europeans nhl nntp posting host gibson cc umanitoba ca organization university manitoba , winnipeg , manitoba , canada lines 76 article rauser 734062608 sfu ca rauser fraser sfu ca \( richard john rauser \) writes 's point far many europeans nhl sick watching game american canadian team \( let 's say , red wings canucks \) seeing names like bure konstantinov borshevshky north america n't \? toronto , detriot , quebec , edmonton particularly annoying , numbers euros teams getting worse well gee , 'd think winnipeg would tops list , 8 regulars european live vancouver hear one word pavel bure , russian rocket completely throw , every time see canucks play keep hoping someone cross check bure hard carry stretcher \( way , i'm canucks fan begin \) well , jet fan , sometimes wish bure would get knocked silly \( nothing serious , enough keep game \) okay , stretcher remark little carried away point resent nhl owners drafting europeans instead canadians \( americans \) denies young canadians opportunity play north american league instead gives europeans , n't even better hockey players 's hype european mystique sickening , nhl owners get , canadian american players continue fight harder get drafted league cases , owners little give general managers one order comes draft find best players team win stanley cup whether player , saskatchewan , russia , gm believes better player , gm drafting get calling nhl league , referring canadian players n't belong , belongs owners owners want rule might canada , enough doubt would us cfl \( sorry football reference \) n't even try push import ratio rule increasing competition positions , cases , would make players better anyways \( oh yeah , many europeans play lower levels professional hockey north america \? play ahl , ihl 's nhl team 's primary farm club , n't hear many europeans playing chl , echl , secondary farm teams ihl \( ie jets russian players moncton , n't believe europeans ft wayne \) \) teams , plenty positions hockey players north america numbers euros nhl escalating , problem clearly getting worse i'm creation european hockey league , let bures selannes world play continent n't want mine i'm favour nhl league premier players world 've grown europeans playing team , players among best world , nilsson , , sel nne , zhamnov , olausson , come , would n't way daryl turner r h contact winnipeg jets internet umturne4 ccu umanitoba ca fidonet 1 348 701 1 348 4 \( please route 348 700 \) tkachuk zhamnov , sel nne , shoots , scores ! jets win cup ! jets win cup ! essensa vezina ! housley norris ! sel nne calder !
macro cup hp com \( patrick \) subject many europeans nhl reply golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca 's message tue , 6 apr 1993 14 20 37 gmt lines 25 1993apr6 alchemy chem utoronto ca nntp posting host cup hp com organization nazi right wing parenting monthly dunno , lemieux \? hmmm sounds like french blood ! ! ! hey ! france part europe ! send euro blooded boy back ! ! ! n't americans study history french settled north america early british lemieux probably trace back north american heritage back lot us friendly mode n't canadians understand sarcasm \? sometimes reader must decide 's reading ludicrous must mean opposite said kinda like toronto 's going win cup posts yeah right cows fly friendly mode geez , gerald like anyone reading rec flamefest hockey pens great n't know le mow quebec patrick
snichols adobe com \( sherri nichols \) subject many europeans nhl organization adobe systems incorporated lines 17 article 1993apr6 alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) writes anyways , crawl back hole crawled nba n't care get basketball players , major league baseball n't give damn get baseball players \( except cuba , \) mlb perfectly willing take players cuba defect first sort like situation used russian czech etc hockey players , political situation countries changed sherri nichols snichols adobe com
umturne4 ccu umanitoba ca \( daryl turner \) subject tps stay top nntp posting host gibson cc umanitoba ca organization university manitoba , winnipeg , manitoba , canada lines 25 article 1993apr6 1 tnclus tele nokia fi hahietanen tnclus tele nokia fi writes mighty ones get tps , finnish champions 1992 3 , getting still stronger ! oh ! say n't ! btw juha yl nen \( centre , hpk \) drafted jets \? \? last year reached top level among finnish centres good playoff games tps ! yes , yl nen draft choice jets \( assuming , course , yl nen played espoo 1990 91 \) 5th round , overall pick jets 1991 entry draft noticed summaries yl nen really begun play well playoffs daryl turner r h contact winnipeg jets internet umturne4 ccu umanitoba ca fidonet 1 348 701 1 348 4 \( please route 348 700 \) tkachuk zhamnov , sel nne , shoots , scores ! jets win cup ! jets win cup ! essensa vezina ! housley norris ! sel nne calder !
lsa mit edu \( lisa anderson \) subject many europeans nhl reply lsa mit edu \( lisa anderson \) organization mit lincoln laboratory lines 24 article 1993apr6 alchemy chem utoronto ca , golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) writes article 1993apr6 pasteur berkeley edu daniell cory berkeley edu \( daniel lyddy \) writes know , 're absolutely right think round players european descent ship 'em back came let 's see , start \? dunno , lemieux \? hmmm sounds like french blood ! ! ! hey ! france part europe ! send euro blooded boy back ! ! ! n't americans study history french settled north america early british lemieux probably trace back north american heritage back lot us gerald uh , gerald , think joking lisa
freenet carleton ca \( marc \) subject many europeans nhl reply freenet carleton ca \( marc \) organization national capital freenet lines 52 somebody wrote 'd love see european nhl division ca n't see happen time 's simply enough fan interest moment several crucial markets like germany , italy france sweden finland probably ca n't afford shell 20 30 tickets way american canadian fans call minnesota north stars effect scandinavians love hockey prefer watch local , inexpensive hockey nhl national hockey league love idea , though pan european tv channels could bring millions american networks likely never pay brings question asked \( answer \) nhl could expand europe would north americans playing nhl willing play team europe \? think majority hockey players necessarily interested expanding cultural experience level \( know would pro hockey player \) one recalls players remarks last years makes wonder european expansion could achieved remember lindros want play quebec \( reasons \) nicholls edmonton r courtnall wanted traded la c lemieux said would refuse go edmonton earlier year know many non cultural reasons behind american players played expos complained french fact city quite like us cities one players' wife trying make point went complain could even find favorite brand chips montreal anybody knows happened us football players moved london , spain , etc one year new football league \( 2 years ago \? \) wonder players association thinks going europe would like see european teams , would best way \? marc
dvb ick \( david van beveren \) subject sad day hockey organization sunsoft inc , los angeles , ca lines 59 nntp posting host ick x newsreader tin 1 1 pl3 andrew cmu edu \( ethan z evans \) writes course , penalties changed roughing males aggressive slashing males venting frustration fighting proof males cannot cope feelings ! since penalties fall three classes , three penalties 1 foul \( illegal contact player stick body stick \) get 5 game 2 unsportsmanlike contact \( intentional foul \) current flavours roughing , fighting boarding get two thrown game , fined 3 technical foul bad mouthing ref , player coach penalty shot awarded two thrown game besides penalty shot one technical , team gets 5 penalties period , opposing team gets penalty shot every additional one , end period victim gets two shots act shooting foul works well several reasons first , penalty shots exciting thing hockey , right \? , follows better next , player setting penalty shot , network take commercial finally , three penalties , network announcers \( meredith , dick vitale , john madden , pat , levy , among others \) able tell viewers happened pa announcer says oh , one rule goal scored \( 10 20 times period \) , play cannot resume pa announcer announces way , network sneak commercials , pa announcer told scored , tv announcer tell viewer , even chance name right seriously , though , actually went see nba basketball game last week , first time life amazed boring play slow actually fans come things like free throw shooting contests period ! course get routines least 6 8 times game , periods either whistle every 30 seconds average , maybe less game 48 minutes , 2 minutes quarters 1 2 3 4 10 minute , still takes 2 hours reason tv plenty room throw commercials , announcer nothing else happening tv , basketball fairly entertaining , imho , better watch tv road nhl following , truly sad day enough dvb
subject many europeans nhl unixg ubc ca \( william \) organization university british columbia , vancouver , b c , canada nntp posting host unixg ubc ca lines 6 long cherry student sfu \? \( bunker \? \) please , keep racist drivel net 're embarassment canadians everywhere bill
tvartiai vipunen hut fi \( tommi vartiainen \) subject tps stay top nntp posting host vipunen hut fi organization helsinki university technology , finland lines 15 1993apr6 1 tnclus tele nokia fi hahietanen tnclus tele nokia fi writes btw juha yl nen \( centre , hpk \) drafted jets \? \? last year reached top level among finnish centres good playoff games tps ! i'm sure juha , another top center , \( ss \) drafted jets good year played finnish believe 'll one best finns year 's wc , \( head coach \) team hannu tommi
x102a ess harris com \( philip \) subject usenet playoff pool nntp posting host x102a ess harris com x newsreader tin 1 1 pl4 organization harris ess , melbourne , fla lines 15 saw previous request rules instructions usenet playoff pool n't seen responce anybody info \? post away could mail thanks advance phil internet x102a ess harris com harris corporation cape canaveral f 407 853
lmarsha cms cc wayne edu \( laurie marshall \) subject doubters \? hmm \? article cms lmarsha organization wayne state university , detroit mi u lines 22 nntp posting host cms cc wayne edu article 1993apr4 ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) writes decide team best seen standings tor 42 25 11 95 609 chi 42 25 11 95 609 det 44 28 9 97 599 van 41 28 9 91 583 team campbell conference better record toronto 's true , according stats , chicago good record toronto 's interesting list toronto ahead chicago laurie marshall wayne state university detroit , michigan go wings ! !
gtd597a prism gatech edu \( hrivnak \) subject miami 's name \? article hydra organization georgia institute technology lines 13 article 1993apr6 vax cns muskingum edu da vax cns muskingum edu writes new miami franchise team announce 's name \? curious south florida colons \) go skins ! next question emotional music quite go braves ! effect \? mike patton , faith go hornets ! go capitals ! mike friedman \( hrivnak fan ! \) internet gtd597a prism gatech edu
pub utk edu \( \) subject testing ! ! organization university tennessee computing center distribution utk lines 6 testing ! ! ! flames please ! bye
gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) subject many europeans nhl article news 1993apr6 reply gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) organization phds hall lines 17 nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu 're right i'm sick seeing white guys skates vancouver canucks half women , overall one third oriental \( \( \( \( \( \( 'll gladly volunteer draft \( gld je souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go ! ! ! gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
hamlet stein u washington edu \( mitch mcgowan \) subject rec sport hockey frequently asked questions organization university washington lines expires mon , 03 may 93 00 00 01 edt reply hamlet u washington edu nntp posting host stein u washington edu archive name hockey faq rec sport hockey answers frequently asked questions news contents 0 new info 1 nhl 2 nhl minor leagues 3 college hockey \( north america \) 4 leagues \( e g europe , canada cup tournament \) 5 e mail files 6 usenet hockey pool 7 coming dates 8 answers frequently asked questions 9 miscellaneous send comments , suggestions criticisms regarding faq list via e mail hamlet u washington edu 0 new info section describe additions since last post decide anything worth reading paragraphs containing new information preceded two \( \) 1 new anaheim contact , winnipeg keep affiliate moncton 2 new milwaukee contact , ihl broadcaster year named , rheaume start cyclones , san diego sets record 3 ticket info included 1994 ncaa division championships 4 world championship pool b results listed , sweden hockey games final standings listed , swedish elite league final standings listed , new hockey mailing list 5 new montreal mailing list address 6 7 8 9 1 nhl national hockey league detailed information concerning team \( particularly get tickets merchandise , watch games town \) , send e mail net contact \( \) team first last team div season cups cup net contacts anaheim mighty ducks 93 94 kris myers kris assist uci edu boston bruins 24 25 5 71 72 buffalo sabres 70 71 0 jeff horvath macc wisc edu calgary flames 80 81 1 88 89 caldwell8102 mtroyal ab ca chicago blackhawks n 26 27 3 60 61 john casbah acns nwu edu detroit red wings n 33 34 7 54 55 gmr com edmonton oilers 79 80 5 89 90 andrew scott andrew idacom hp com hartford whalers 79 80 0 matthew olsen athena mit edu los angeles kings 67 68 0 stan willis willis empire dnet hac com minnesota north stars n 67 68 0 mitch mcgowan hamlet u washington edu montreal canadiens 17 18 22 85 86 new jersey devils p 82 83 0 new york islanders p 72 73 4 82 83 mark anania rpi edu new york rangers p 26 27 3 39 40 paul romano romano bellcore com ottawa senators 92 93 0 scott simpson simpson bnr ca philadelphia flyers p 67 68 2 74 75 pete clark seth att com pittsburgh penguins p 67 68 2 91 92 lori iannamico lli cs cmu edu thomas sullivan tms cs cmu edu quebec nordiques 79 80 0 st louis blues n 67 68 0 joseph achkar jca2 cec1 wustl edu san jose sharks 91 92 0 nelson lu claudius leland stanford edu south florida 93 94 tampa bay lightning n 92 93 0 tom wilson wilson cs ucf edu toronto maple leafs n 26 27 11 66 67 darryl gamble darryl cs yorku ca vancouver canucks 70 71 0 alan sfu ca washington capitals p 74 75 0 david lu david eng umd edu winnipeg jets 79 80 0 umturne4 ccu umanitoba ca adams n norris p patrick smythe calgary formerly atlanta flames \( 72 73 79 80 \) detroit formerly detroit \( 26 27 29 30 \) detroit \( 30 31 32 33 \) edmonton formerly alberta oilers \( wha \) \( 72 73 \) edmonton oilers \( wha \) \( 72 73 78 79 \) hartford formerly new england whalers \( wha \) \( 72 73 78 79 \) minnesota cleveland merged minnesota 1978 79 season new jersey formerly kansas city scouts \( 74 75 75 76 \) colorado rockies \( 76 77 81 82 \) quebec formerly quebec nordiques \( wha \) \( 72 73 78 79 \) toronto formerly toronto arenas \( 17 18 18 19 \) toronto st \( 19 20 25 26 \) winnipeg formerly winnipeg jets \( wha \) \( 72 73 78 79 \) teams mailing lists , see section 5 addresses boston , buffalo , los angeles , montreal , philadelphia , pittsburgh , st louis , san jose , tampa bay , vancouver , washington schedule 1992 1993 schedule nhl april sun mon tue wed thu fri sat ! ! ! ! ! 1 ! 2 ! 3 ! ! ! ! ! ! min cal ! mon ! buf bos ! ! ! ! ! ! det chi ! nyi nyr ! cal sj ! ! ! ! ! ! har pit ! ! chi stl ! ! ! ! ! ! que ott ! ! van det ! ! ! ! ! ! tor phi ! ! win edm ! ! ! ! ! ! win sj ! ! ott har ! ! ! ! ! ! van tb ! ! min la ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! mon nyi ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! nj tor ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! tb phi ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! pit que ! ! 4 ! 5 ! 6 ! 7 ! 8 ! 9 ! 10 ! ! bos buf ! har nyr ! bos que ! edm van ! que bos ! van cal ! bos mon ! ! cal sj ! ! buf min ! har ott ! chi nyi ! pit nyr ! buf det ! ! stl chi ! ! cal la ! mon pit ! det tb ! ! chi tb ! ! pit nj ! ! edm sj ! nyr nj ! sj la ! ! har que ! ! nyr ! ! nyi ! ! phi ! ! la sj ! ! van ott ! ! phi win ! ! tor win ! ! stl min ! ! ! ! stl tb ! ! ! ! nj ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ott nyi ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! nyr pit ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! phi tor ! ! 11 ! 12 ! 13 ! 14 ! 15 ! 16 ! 17 ! ! ott bos ! mon ! mon buf ! bos ott ! phi buf ! ! ! ! que buf ! nyr phi ! cal edm ! nyi har ! sj cal ! ! ! ! cal van ! ! chi min ! pit nj ! tor chi ! ! ! ! tb chi ! ! la van ! nyr ! min det ! ! ! ! win edm ! ! ott que ! ! edm win ! ! ! ! tor har ! ! stl tor ! ! har nyi ! ! ! ! min stl ! ! tb win ! ! van la ! ! ! ! nyi nj ! ! ! ! nj pit ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! tb stl ! ! ! season begin 10 6 end 4 15 playoffs begin 4 18 end 6 14 24 nhl regular season games played non nhl cities 92 93 season cities milwaukee \( 2 \) , sacramento \( 2 \) , cleveland \( 2 \) , indianapolis , phoenix , miami , oklahoma city , dallas , atlanta , cincinnati , providence , peoria , hamilton \( 4 \) , saskatoon \( 4 \) , halifax chart showing number games teams \( 84 games \) n n n p p w b b h q c c e l v w j h u u h e b j r f r n e n l r l n n nj 7 7 7 9 7 4 4 4 3 4 4 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 nyi 7 7 9 7 7 4 3 4 4 3 3 2 2 2 3 2 2 2 3 2 2 2 2 nyr 7 7 7 7 9 3 4 3 4 3 4 2 2 2 2 3 2 2 2 2 3 2 2 phi 7 9 7 7 7 4 3 3 4 3 4 2 3 2 2 2 2 3 2 2 2 2 2 pit 9 7 7 7 7 5 4 3 3 4 3 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 2 2 2 2 7 7 9 7 7 3 4 4 3 4 3 3 3 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 bos 4 4 3 4 5 3 7 7 9 7 7 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 buf 4 3 4 3 4 4 7 9 7 7 7 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 2 har 4 4 3 3 3 4 7 9 7 7 7 2 2 2 3 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 mon 3 4 4 4 3 3 9 7 7 7 7 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 2 2 ott 4 3 3 3 4 4 7 7 7 7 9 2 2 2 2 2 3 2 2 2 2 2 3 que 4 3 4 4 3 3 7 7 7 7 9 2 2 2 2 3 3 2 2 2 2 2 2 chi 2 2 2 2 2 3 2 2 2 2 2 2 9 7 7 7 7 3 4 5 3 4 3 det 2 2 2 3 2 3 2 2 2 2 2 2 9 7 7 7 7 4 3 4 4 3 3 min 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 7 7 9 7 7 4 4 3 3 5 4 stl 2 3 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 2 2 2 7 7 9 7 7 4 3 3 3 4 4 tb 2 2 3 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 7 7 7 7 9 3 4 3 4 3 4 tor 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 7 7 7 7 9 4 3 4 4 3 3 cal 2 2 2 3 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 4 4 4 3 4 7 7 9 7 7 edm 2 3 2 2 3 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 4 3 4 3 4 3 7 7 7 7 9 la 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 2 2 5 4 3 3 3 4 7 7 7 9 7 sj 2 2 3 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 2 2 3 4 3 3 4 4 9 7 7 7 7 van 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 2 2 2 2 4 3 5 4 3 3 7 7 9 7 7 win 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 2 3 2 3 3 4 4 4 3 7 9 7 7 7 valerie hammerl hammerl acsu buffalo edu posted year 's version nhl c , schedule program nhl games example , users find games played certain date find next ten games played team x copy obtained e mailing hammerl acsu buffalo edu following neutral site schedule tue 10 13 calgary vs minnesota saskatoon tue 10 20 ottawa vs toronto hamilton tue 11 03 chicago vs washington indianapolis tue 11 17 toronto vs quebec hamilton wed 11 18 buffalo vs new jersey hamilton tue 12 01 los angeles vs chicago milwaukee tue 12 08 montreal vs los angeles phoenix wed 12 09 tampa bay vs new york rangers miami sun 12 13 edmonton vs new york islanders oklahoma city tue 12 15 new york islanders vs st louis dallas mon 01 04 san jose vs montreal sacramento mon 01 18 hartford vs winnipeg saskatoon mon 02 08 boston vs pittsburgh atlanta mon 02 08 st louis vs hartford peoria tue 02 16 philadelphia vs calgary cincinnati sat 02 20 quebec vs tampa bay halifax mon 02 22 new york rangers vs san jose sacramento mon 02 22 detroit vs philadelphia cleveland tue 02 23 winnipeg vs ottawa saskatoon mon 03 01 vancouver vs buffalo hamilton thu 03 11 minnesota vs vancouver saskatoon tue 03 16 washington vs detroit milwaukee tue 03 16 new jersey vs boston providence sun 03 21 pittsburgh vs edmonton cleveland location subject change nhl playoff schedule wales conference division semifinals april 18 , 20 , 22 , 24 , 26 , 28 , 30 campbell conference division semifinals april 19 , 21 , 23 , 25 , 27 , 29 , may 1 wales conference division finals may 2 , 4 , 6 , 8 , 10 , 12 , 14 campbell conference division finals may 3 , 5 , 7 , 9 , 11 , 13 , 15 wales conference final may 16 , 18 , 20 , 22 , 24 , 26 , 28 campbell conference final may 17 , 19 , 21 , 23 , 25 , 27 , 29 stanley cup final june 1 , 3 , 5 , 7 , 9 , 11 , 14 neccessary news scores spike \( bryan k strouse \) cbnewsh cb att com posts weekday news box scores \( sunday thursday \) john p curcio jpc philabs philips com posts weekend news box scores maintain e mail lists faster delivery net contacts post team news see hear read notable team news \( transactions announcements \) note information press releases posts updated month information currently discussion continuing importance interest listed two postings boston bruins boston legislators developers proposing new boston garden finally agreed deal puts 19 , 000 seat , 160 million project back track finished september 1995 right wing daniel marois indefinitely following surgery repair disc back sent defenseman glen murray providence american hockey league buffalo sabres 1 800 333 puck \( 1 800 333 \) acquired left winger bob errey pittsburgh defenseman mike ramsey veteran buffalo sabres broadcaster ted darling club 's hall fame sunday , april 11 darling , joined expansion sabres 1970 , team 's play play announcer television radio illness forced booth last season recalled forwards viktor doug macdonald rochester american hockey league calgary flames acquired veteran right wing greg paslawski philadelphia future considerations recalled center todd left winger tomas salt lake city international hockey league chicago blackhawks 175 million , privately financed united center , scheduled open august 1994 , home nba 's chicago bulls nhl 's chicago blackhawks stadium owned entities controlled two teams owners apparently still made decision whether old chicago stadium razed parking space new facility , located directly across street , opens suspended defenseman craig muni indefinitely failing report following trade edmonton detroit red wings acquired defenseman steve hartford sixth round draft pick signing right wing joe frederick , 13th pick 1989 national hockey league entry draft two hockey fans returned stolen michigan sports hall fame plaque honoring detroit red wing great gordie howe bronze plaque stolen four years ago hall detroit , site michigan hall fame edmonton oilers sent forward esa tikkanen new york rangers center doug weight traded defenseman craig muni chicago forward mike hudson nhl commissioner gary bettman said edmonton lease northlands coliseum must improved team survive city edmonton northlands non profit agency set city administer exhibition facilities including coliseum oilers owner peter pocklington calls lease northlands horrendous threatened move team n't get better deal makes money parking , concessions building advertising 17 , 313 seat coliseum also lucrative private boxes produce significant revenues owners announced center kevin todd need surgery miss remainder season separated shoulder hartford whalers sent defenseman steve detroit sixth round draft pick acquired left winger robert kron third round draft pick vancouver left winger murray craven fifth round draft pick state connecticut begin negotiations buy civic center city effort keep financially struggling hartford whalers franchise city los angeles kings sent center john mcintyre new york rangers defenseman mark hardy ottawa 's fifth round 1993 draft pick minnesota north stars 1 800 800 calling u 1 800 800 calling canada dallas city council approved agreement minnesota north stars bring nhl club reunion arena next season defenseman mark tinordi , captain north stars , rest season , including postseason games north stars might play , broken acquired defenseman mark winnipeg ninth 10th round draft picks 1993 added defenseman travis richards university minnesota former employee filed sexual harassment suit minnesota north star owner norman green karen \( kari \) , green 's former executive assistant , claims green often instructed wear , described hot sexy , slapped hand eat humiliated grabbing hand rubbing client 's hair minnesota north stars , move dallas season , announced nearly 11 , 000 season ticket reservations made new home reunion arena , capacity 16 , 800 met center commission told minnesota north stars wants club keys returned midnight last home game club moving dallas next season club must pay unpaid interest 4 , 492 80 team 's late rent payment 1992 , made earlier month , instructed take property scoreboard zamboni ice machine hatcher 's game misconduct penalty rescinded nhl , allowing minnesota defenseman play north stars' last two regular season games hatcher given penalty fight end loss st louis sunday , april 11 league n't rescind game misconduct penalty shane churla received stars recalled center cal mcgowan top minor league club kalamazoo , mich , replace churla montreal canadiens acquired defenseman rob ramage tampa bay minor league defensemen eric alain cote future considerations new jersey devils bernie nicholls publicly apologized criticism referee denis 5 2 loss buffalo sabres nicholls ejected third man fight late second period game afterward nicholls called homer embarrassment referee 's association new york islanders traded right wing daniel marois boston conditional draft choice new york rangers obtained forward esa tikkanen edmonton center doug weight acquired left winger mike hartman tampa bay acquired center john mcintyre los angeles defenseman mark hardy ottawa 's fifth round 1993 draft pick defenseman brian leetch undergo additional surgery right ankle broke non skating fall expected play season leetch suffered broken ankle march 19 following victory san jose team said slipped icy patch pavement getting taxi cab front apartment announced defenseman james patrick require surgery disc back play season returned goaltender corey hirsch binghamton american hockey league ottawa senators ottawa senators received go ahead build 18 , 500 seat proposed location nearby , ont projected cost c 150 million construction postponed 1995 96 season , one year behind schedule ottawa senators lost consecutive nhl road game tie 1974 75 washington capitals road losses row assigned left wing martin st new american hockey league philadelphia flyers opening date spectrum ii pushed back fall 1995 formal postponed indefinitely traded veteran right wing greg paslawski calgary flames future considerations pittsburgh penguins traded left winger bob errey buffalo defenseman mike ramsey defenseman peter taglianetti tampa bay lightning third round 1993 draft choice revolutionary comics san diego agreed destroy available copies mario lemieux comic book settlement pittsburgh penguins trademark infringement lawsuit penguins sued february charging sport stars mario lemieux comic infringed team 's logo uniform , registered trademarks quebec nordiques 1 800 463 3333 st louis blues st louis blues center ron sutter miss rest season result separating right shoulder san jose sharks san jose sharks announced ticket prices increase 30 1993 94 season move cow palace new 155 million arena san jose recalled defenseman tom pederson kansas city international hockey league reached agreement principle left wing alexander tampa bay lightning 1 800 881 least two investor groups poised build sports arena downtown tampa delay plagued company holds lease tampa bay lightning tampa coliseum inc lease national hockey league team develop entertainment sports arena next tampa stadium , unable raise enough money project sent left winger mike hartman new york rangers center randy gilhen sent defenseman peter taglianetti pittsburgh third round 1993 draft choice sent defenseman rob ramage montreal canadiens minor league defensemen eric alain cote future considerations manon rheaume 's first starting appearance goal atlanta knights impressive enough coach say chance backup goalie another minor league team next season rheaume , first female play professional hockey , stopped 25 shots gave six goals cincinnati cyclones saturday night , april 10 game , coach , gene , said rheaume performed well enough compete 2 goalie spot louisville east coast hockey league next season knights minor league clubs tampa bay lightning first season comes close , rumors swirling tampa bay lightning might become atlanta lightning minnesota lightning rumors , according lightning general manager phil esposito espn reported sunday , april 11 , lightning , playing 10 , 400 seat expo hall , exploring opportunities move either atlanta minneapolis esposito said truth report disappointed espn 's irresponsible comment , esposito said substance rumor rumors swirling past two years regarding move tampa bay , presently discussing plans build new arena toronto maple leafs defenseman matt martin , helped maine win 1993 ncaa hockey championship , gave final year eligibility signed contract toronto maple leafs vancouver canucks vancouver canucks cleared last hurdle effort build new stadium vancouver council given green light 100 million dollar complex seat 20 thousand people office tower built near b c place vancouver site preparation begin summer , completion date fall 1995 traded left winger robert kron third round draft pick hartford left winger murray craven fifth round draft pick obtained defenseman dan ratushny winnipeg ninth round draft pick signed right wing brian loney multi year contract assigned hamilton american hockey league \( ahl \) washington capitals \( 301 \) 808 caps traded goaltender jim hrivnak future considerations winnipeg goaltender rick tabaracci winnipeg jets winnipeg jets allowed economic assistance order keep smythe division result expansion sent defenseman mark minnesota ninth 10th round draft picks 1993 sent goaltender rick tabaracci washington jim hrivnak future considerations sent defenseman dan ratushny vancouver ninth round draft pick winnipeg 's teemu selanne broke nhl 's rookie points record jets rookie tied record 109 points , set peter stastny quebec \( 1980 81 \) , goal , season , moved ahead assist 5 4 loss toronto fort wayne komets said told winnipeg jets keep minor league affiliation moncton american hockey league reports jets would move players moncton fort wayne next season expansion news national hockey league announced expansion anaheim south florida franchises join league 1993 1994 season disney national hockey league officials announced monday , march 1 , mighty ducks anaheim , disney 's expansion team , take ice next fall michael , chairman chief executive officer walt disney co , said mighty ducks play pond , new anaheim sports arena , near disney 's flagship theme park arena construction completed june pond seats 17 , 350 team still must meet league 's requirement sell least 10 , 000 season tickets final grant nhl membership anaheim named jack ferreira general manager pierre assistant general manager veteran nhl scout al godfrey hired midwest regional scout anaheim mighty ducks philadelphia senior vice president bobby clarke named monday , march 1 , post general manager miami 's nhl expansion team franchise owner h wayne huizenga made announcement miami arena , three months awarded franchise huizenga said plans team ice time beginning nhl season october realignment eastern conference atlantic division washington capitals , new jersey devils , new york islanders , new york rangers , philadelphia flyers , south florida , tampa bay lightning northeast division boston bruins , buffalo sabres , hartford whalers , montreal canadiens , ottawa senators , pittsburgh penguins , quebec nordiques western conference central division chicago blackhawks , dallas stars , detroit red wings , st louis blues , toronto maple leafs , winnipeg jets pacific division anaheim mighty ducks , calgary flames , edmonton oilers , los angeles kings , san jose sharks , vancouver canucks schedule eastern conference teams play five games six divisional opponents \( 30 \) four games seven teams conference 's division \( 28 \) two games 12 western conference members \( 24 \) western conference teams play six games five divisional opponents \( 30 \) four games six teams conference 's division \( 24 \) two games 14 eastern conference clubs \( 28 \) playoffs system conference based , 1 team meeting 8 team first round , 2 vs 7 , 3 vs 6 4 vs 5 matchups based overall points four division champions placed first second place seeds conference assured home ice first two playoff rounds series best seven \( 2 2 1 1 1 rotation \) except matchups central pacific teams series rotate 2 3 2 reduce travel cases , team regular season points choose whether start series home away draft news terms new expansion draft , held june , 24 existing clubs allowed protect one goaltender , five defensemen nine forwards recent expansion drafts allowed teams protect two goalies make distinction forwards defensemen first year pros exempt draft , two year exemption teams last season san jose , tampa bay ottawa still allowed exempt second year pros 24 teams lose two players , maximum loss one goaltender maximum loss one defenseman one exception team loses goaltender longer lose defenseman end first phase draft , two new franchises three goaltenders , eight defensemen 13 forwards total 24 players second phase conducted san jose , tampa bay ottawa select two players rosters two new teams ottawa , tampa bay san jose guaranteed priority drafting selection 1993 draft long three worst records anaheim miami choose lower fourth fifth expansion franchises move draft either san jose , tampa bay ottawa finish bottom three positions two new teams pick first second 1994 entry draft , regardless finish 1993 94 either two new teams play next season would priority drafting position 1994 owners announced 1994 draft hartford 1995 draft winnipeg 1994 draft scheduled boston , delay construction new arena required draft moved league news disputes nhl owners players resolved differences salary arbitration procedures , clearing way 40 hearings nhlpa executive director bob n't disclose issues resolved , prior sticking point manner statistics used arbitration hearings olympics nhl announced february 26 , 1993 , make professional players available compete 1994 winter olympics league leadership los angeles kings owner bruce mcnall succeeded blackhawks owner bill wirtz chairman nhl 's powerful board governors appointed join mcnall executive committee ron corey montreal canadiens , mike detroit red wings , peter pocklington edmonton oilers ed snider philadelphia flyers gary bettman , vice president general counsel national basketball association , named commissioner national hockey league , friday , december 11 , 1992 miscellaneous henri richard , bernie parent billy smith named special ambassadors stanley cup , season long celebration nhl championship trophy trio appear league wide function star game stanley cup playoffs national hockey league named john n turner , former prime minister canada , serve board directors hockey hall fame museum nominated scotty morrison , david taylor , larry , robert g bundy , walter bush , murray costello , jim gregory , leslie , lawrence g meyer alan serve board , takes office march 30 nhl president gil stein one four individuals elected hockey hall fame builder 's category others buffalo sabres' chairman board president seymour knox iii , vancouver chairman frank veteran canadian hockey executive fred page former nhl linesman john selected hall fame 's referee linesman category nhl tv games carried tsn cbc canada , espn u check local listings national hockey league struck conditional five year deal espn televise professional hockey 1996 97 season series agreements grants espn exclusive national coverage nhl starting 1992 93 season , cable network option extend term domestic agreement four years deal also grants espn exclusive international television distribution , excluding canada , next five years league 's new tv contract calls espn televise 25 regular season games domestic audience coming season 37 playoff games , including entire stanley cup final majority espn 's regular season games televised friday nights nhl commissioner gary bettman announced wednesday , march 3 , abc sports televise five stanley cup playoff games starting next month abc carry playoff games network arrangement espn , u nhl games espn provide production games abc owns espn april 18 wales conference game 1 quarterfinals april 25 campbell conference game 4 quarterfinals may 2 wales conference game 1 semifinals may 9 campbell conference game 4 semifinals may 16 wales conference game 1 finals award winners , star teams , hall fame , draft picks 91 92 award winners hart trophy \( mvp \) mark messier \( nyr \) vezina trophy \( best goalie \) patrick roy \( mon \) norris trophy \( best defenseman \) brian leetch \( nyr \) calder trophy \( best rookie \) pavel bure \( van \) selke trophy \( best defensive forward \) guy carbonneau \( mon \) lady trophy \( \) wayne gretzky \( la \) jack adams award \( best coach \) pat quinn \( van \) bill memorial trophy \( \) mark fitzpatrick \( nyi \) king clancy trophy \( contribution community \) ray bourque \( bos \) jennings trophy \( lowest team gaa \) patrick roy \( mon \) art ross trophy \( scoring points \) mario lemieux \( pit \) hall players frank boucher red dutton executives bruce mcnall gil stein thursday named 1993 winners lester patrick award service hockey united award selected year committee representing wide cross section hockey community 91 92 1st star team patrick roy \( g , mon \) , ray bourque \( , bos \) , brian leetch \( , nyr \) , mark messier \( c , nyr \) , brett hull \( rw , stl \) , kevin stevens \( lw , pit \) 92 93 star game starters \( voted fans \) wales conference mario lemieux \( c , pittsburgh \) , jaromir jagr \( w , pittsburgh \) , kevin stevens \( w , pittsburgh \) , ray bourque \( , boston \) , brian leetch \( , rangers \) , patrick roy , \( g , montreal \) campbell conference steve yzerman \( c , detroit \) , brett hull \( w , st louis \) , pavel bure \( w , vancouver \) , chris chelios \( , chicago \) , paul coffey \( , los angeles \) , ed belfour \( g , chicago \) 91 92 rookie team gilbert dionne \( lw , mon \) , tony amonte \( rw , nyr \) , kevin todd \( c , nj \) , vladimir konstantinov \( , det \) , lidstrom \( , det \) , dominik hasek \( g , chi \) 1992 hall fame marcel dionne , bob gainey , mcdonald , woody first round 1992 entry draft player \( pos , team \) 1 roman hamrlik \( , tb \) 2 alexei yashin \( c , ott \) 3 mike \( , sj \) 4 todd \( lw , que \) 5 darius kasparaitis \( , nyi \) 6 cory stillman \( c , cal \) 7 ryan sittler \( lw , phi \) 8 brandon \( c , tor \) 9 robert petrovicky \( c , har \) 10 andrei \( lw , sj \) 11 david cooper \( , buf \) 12 sergei \( lw , chi \) 13 joe \( lw , edm \) 14 sergei \( , \) 15 jason bowen \( lw , phi \) 16 dmitri kvartalnov \( lw , bos \) 17 sergei bautin \( , win \) 18 jason smith \( , nj \) 19 martin straka \( c , pit \) 20 david \( , mon \) 21 \( c , van \) 22 curtis bowen \( lw , det \) 23 grant marshall \( rw , tor \) 24 peter ferraro \( c , nyr \) new nhl rules game fight helmets optional grabbing opponent 's stick defensive move penalty diving draw penalty penalty coincidental minors teams full strength result 4 vs 4 play high sticking waist new ratified nhlpa 4 11 92 term september 16 , 1991 september 15 , 1993 licensing players exclusive rights individual personality , including salary arbitration new rules negotiated 8 salary jointly agreed upon free agency compensation scale reduced players age 30 group iii free agent age reduced 30 31 player completed 10 professional seasons \( minor nhl \) last year contract n't earn average nhl salary , elect career become unrestricted free agent end contract salary awards players' playoff fund increased 7 5m 1991 92 9m 92 93 new minimum salary 100 , 000 insurance 200 , 000 coverage dental broad based medical improvements 100 increase life insurance players coverage wives pension improved pension contributions 8000 per player per year , depending player 's number nhl games agreement language guarantee continuation security plan negotiated 1986 regular season increased 80 84 games 92 93 2 games played neutral sites , arrangements revenues shared rosters kept 18 skaters 2 goaltenders 92 93 entry draft reduced 11 rounds 12 supplemental draft one selection non playoff team joint study group examine financial state nhl issue report assist preparing 1993 negotiations nhl free agency categories \( effective 9 15 93 \) group players aged 24 player 's choice player equalization draft pick compensation compensation , old club right match offer new club equalization , old club right match offer equalization , consist players , draft picks , cash , must agreed upon two clubs submitted arbitration group ii players aged 25 29 player 's choice player equalization draft pick compensation equalization , old club right match offer least 351 , 000 compensation , schedule one first round pick player signs 350 , 000 500 , 000 year two first round picks player signs 500 , 000 1 million year extra first round pick additional 1m 1m year group iii players aged 30 old club gets compensation , right match offer receive right match , old club must make qualifying offer 15 player 's salary prior season group iv players considered free agents group v player 10 years experience whose salary nhl average choose free agent without compensation career 2 nhl minor leagues nhl minor leagues international hockey league , american hockey league east coast hockey league information central hockey league american hockey association found section 4 ihl contacts ihl rob ultb isc rit edu atlanta knights scott clarkson prism gatech edu cincinnati cyclones joseph combs uceng uc edu cleveland rob uoft02 utoledo edu ft wayne komets rob uoft02 utoledo edu milwaukee admirals jason hanson jason studsys mscs mu edu salt lake golden eagles roland behunin behunin oo af mil international hockey league granted franchise las vegas group headed henry 1993 1994 season international hockey league named bob chase voice fort wayne komets , league 's broadcaster year ihl also said annual award , effective next year , named chase 's honor also honored ihl jim loria kansas city blades marketing director year , gartner phoenix roadrunners merchandise manager year steve doherty kalamazoo wings public relations director year atlanta knights international hockey league announced thursday , april 8 , manon rheaume starting goaltender home game saturday night , april 10 , cincinnati cyclones rheaume become first female start regular season professional hockey game fort wayne announced winger scott retire end international hockey league season join fury colonial league fort wayne komets said told winnipeg jets keep minor league affiliation moncton american hockey league reports jets would move players moncton fort wayne next season san diego gulls international hockey league set record victory , 5 1 , salt lake golden eagles gulls \( 61 11 8 \) became first team professional hockey win many games season 1976 77 montreal canadiens 60 games ihl 's 1992 turner cup kansas city blades defeated 4 games 0 ahl contacts ahl rob ultb isc rit edu bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu mark anania rpi edu see section 5 newsletter information atlantic division cape breton , fredericton , halifax , moncton , st john 's northern division adirondack , capital district , providence , new , springfield southern division baltimore , binghamton , hershey , rochester , utica , hamilton new senators sold peter shipman ottawa senators nhl organization canadian nhl team american ahl affiliate , made clear intend move team somewhere canadian atlantic provinces sale move yet approved ahl head office , expected pass easily general meeting may baltimore skipjacks , washington american hockey league , skate next season portland pirates calgary flames base farm team ahl st john , new brunswick next season team called st john blue flames fort wayne komets ihl said told winnipeg nhl jets keep minor league affiliation moncton american hockey league reports jets would move players moncton fort wayne next season ahl 's 1992 calder cup adirondack red wings beat st john 's maple leafs 4 games 3 home ice curse held true games final visiting team john anderson \( new \) 1992 winner les cunningham plaque ahl mvp echl contacts echl , toledo storm rob uoft02 utoledo edu toledo storm hockey team asking seagate convention center consider becoming host site beginning 1994 95 season storm , played last two seasons toledo sports arena , said asked 55 dates downtown facility storm also talking backers proposed ice complex suburban become primary tenant echl 's 1992 riley cup hampton roads beat louisville 4 games 0 see section 5 newsletter information minor league affiliates nhl teams bos providence bruins \( ahl \) , chiefs \( echl \) buf rochester americans \( ahl \) , erie panthers \( echl \) cal salt lake golden eagles \( ihl \) , roanoke valley rebels \( echl \) chi indianapolis ice \( ihl \) , columbus chill \( echl \) , st thomas \( col hl \) det adirondack red wings \( ahl \) , toledo storm \( echl \) edm cape breton oilers \( ahl \) , winston salem thunderbirds \( echl \) har springfield indians \( ahl \) , louisville \( echl \) la phoenix roadrunners \( ihl \) , raleigh \( echl \) min kalamazoo wings \( ihl \) , dayton bombers \( echl \) mon fredericton canadiens \( ahl \) , winston salem thunderbirds \( echl \) , flint \( col hl \) nj utica devils \( ahl \) , birmingham bulls \( echl \) nyi capital district islanders \( ahl \) , richmond renegades \( echl \) nyr binghamton rangers \( ahl \) ott new senators \( ahl \) , thunder bay \( col hl \) phi hershey bears \( ahl \) pit cleveland \( ihl \) , knoxville \( echl \) que halifax citadels \( ahl \) , \( echl \) sj kansas city blades \( ihl \) , nashville knights \( echl \) stl peoria \( ihl \) , dayton bombers \( echl \) , flint \( col hl \) tb atlanta knights \( ihl \) tor st john 's maple leafs \( ahl \) , raleigh \( echl \) , \( col hl \) van columbus chill \( echl \) , hamilton canucks \( ahl \) baltimore skipjacks \( ahl \) , hampton roads admirals \( echl \) win moncton hawks \( ahl \) , thunder bay \( col hl \) ind cincinnati cyclones \( ihl \) fort wayne komets \( ihl \) michigan \( colonial hl \) milwaukee admirals \( ihl \) san diego gulls \( ihl \) st thomas \( colonial hl \) 3 college hockey contacts ncaa mike machnik nin15b34 merrimack edu wisconsin jeff horvath horvath cs wisc edu , bowling green state keith euclid bgsu edu ecac , clarkson bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu e mail lists wayne smith maine maine edu maintains 2 lists , one discussions \( hockey l \) one news \( hockey \) send e mail listserv maine maine edu body subscribe hockey l name favorite team subscribe hockey name \( read list containing news hockey l \) date division standings scores obtained archives college hockey mailing list send message server listserv maine maine edu body containing commands \( either \) ftp site andy bgsu edu directory pub hockey contains press releases , scores , standings , rosters sub directory archives archives division college hockey mailing list since 1989 also , archives division iii list since may 1992 available ncaa hockey championship semi finals maine 4 , michigan 3 \( ot \) lake superior state 6 , boston university 1 finals maine 5 , lake superior state 4 freshman paul kariya named winner 1992 93 hobey baker award college hockey 's top player ncaa division hockey championships held st paul civic center st paul , minnesota , march 31 april 2 , 1994 priority seating call university minnesota ticket office \( 612 \) 624 , 8 00 5 00 p , monday friday send postcard university minnesota ticket office 1994 ncaa hockey championships 516 15th avenue se minneapolis mn ncaa division teams \( central collegiate hockey association \) bowling green , ferris state , illinois chicago , lake superior , miami , michigan , michigan state , ohio state , western michigan , notre dame , kent state , alaska fairbanks \( affiliate member \) playoff structure top 6 host bottom 6 \( 1 vs 12 , 2 vs 11 , etc \) two three weekend series six winners advance joe louis arena single elimination rest way top 2 remaining seeds get bye 3 plays 6 4 plays 5 first night second night , 4 remaining teams battle , leaving two play championship , third night alaska fairbanks , affiliate member , 7 12 league office ecac \( eastern college athletic conference \) \( men 's \) brown , clarkson , , cornell , dartmouth , harvard , princeton , rpi , st lawrence , union , vermont , yale ecac \( eastern college athletic conference \) \( women 's \) brown , colby , cornell , dartmouth , harvard , new hampshire , northeastern , princeton , providence , rochester institute technology , st lawrence , yale eastern collegiate athletic conference unveiled nation 's first women 's ice hockey league announced 12 teams begin play 1993 94 season top eight ecac women 's ice hockey league qualify post season tournament league replaces informal 15 team conference nine division six division iii schools , held respective division end regular season ecac said would division iii women 's tournament 1992 93 season hockey east boston college , boston university , umass lowell , maine , merrimack , new hampshire , northeastern , providence \( western collegiate hockey association \) colorado college , denver , michigan tech , minnesota , minnesota duluth , north dakota , northern michigan , st cloud , wisconsin alaska joined full fledged member 93 94 air force , alabama huntsville , alaska , alaska fairbanks , army canadian athletic union championships team division university alberta golden bears west university ontario west university toronto varsity blues ontario east university acadia east semi finals acadia 9 , alberta 4 toronto 3 , 2 finals acadia 12 , toronto 1 4 hockey leagues 1992 world championships czechoslovakia sweden defeated finland 5 2 \( gold medal match \) czechoslovakia defeated switzerland 5 2 \( bronze medal match \) final standings \( round robin \) group w l gf ga pts group b w l gf ga pts finland 5 0 0 32 8 10 russia 4 1 0 23 10 9 germany 4 0 1 30 14 8 czech 4 0 1 18 7 8 usa 2 1 2 14 15 5 2 2 1 12 11 6 sweden 1 2 2 14 12 4 canada 2 1 2 15 18 5 italy 1 1 3 10 18 3 norway 1 0 4 8 16 2 poland 0 0 5 8 41 0 france 0 0 5 8 22 0 austria replace poland pool 1993 wc germany 1993 world championships \( pool \) scheduled run apr 18 may 2 munich , germany 1993 world championships \( pool b \) eindhoven , netherlands g w l pts gf ga 1 great britain 7 7 0 0 14 50 13 2 poland 7 6 1 0 12 71 12 3 netherlands 7 5 2 0 10 47 20 4 denmark 7 4 3 0 8 38 24 5 japan 7 3 4 0 6 34 31 6 romania 7 2 5 0 4 20 44 7 china 7 1 6 0 2 12 79 8 bulgaria 7 0 7 0 0 9 58 great britain advances pool bulgaria relegated pool c 1992 olympic games e mail lists charlie maine maine edu maintains olympic hockey discussion list send e mail listserv maine maine edu body subscribe name favorite country \( \) cis gold , canada silver , czechoslovakia bronze \( defeated usa \) yale hockey coach tim taylor named coach '94 us olympic team \( \) tom kamloops blazers \( whl \) co coaches canada 's national program 1998 winter olympic organizing committee said approved addition women 's ice hockey list official medal events games decision , came organizing committee meeting , followed accord reached committee ioc coordination committee decision formally ratified executive board meeting international olympic committee \( ioc \) session result , number total events increase 64 seven sports 1991 canada cup team canada defeated team usa 2 games 0 1992 hockey tournament final russia ii czechoslovakia 2 1 game 3rd 4th place russia sweden 4 1 game 5th 6th place finland switzerland 3 1 game 7th 8th place canada germany 6 1 final standings 25th cup 1 russia ii \( russian olympic team \) 2 czechoslovakia 3 russia 4 sweden 5 finland 6 switzerland 7 canada 8 germany 1992 germany cup russia defeated team canada 6 3 win 170 , 000 four team germany cup third time russian team , coached first time legendary boris , assured 67 , 000 winner 's check 3 1 win czechoslovakia former soviet union commonwealth independent states captured tournament 1988 1991 viktor 1992 spengler cup canada , fabian joseph scoring second goal game 3 47 overtime , beat \( sweden \) 6 5 final spengler cup , switzerland canadians overcame two goal deficit final two minutes regulation went earn second overtime victory within 15 hours final team canada \( sweden \) 6 5 \( 1 1 , 2 2 , 2 2 , 1 0 \) ot 1992 european cup finals duesseldorf , december 30 , 1992 bronze jokerit helsinki lions milano 4 2 gold dynamo moscow 4 3 \( shootout \) third successive european championship swedish team 1990 1991 champion \( stockholm \) 1993 sweden hockey games final standings gp w l gf ga p 1 sweden 3 2 0 1 13 8 5 4 2 czech republic 3 2 0 1 16 11 5 4 3 russia 3 1 1 1 9 11 2 3 4 canada 3 0 1 2 13 21 8 1 sweden wins due head head result vs czech republic junior leagues contact whl randy coulman coulman usask ca mitch mcgowan hamlet u washington edu site memorial cup tournament yet chosen staged ontario exact location wo n't determined next spring march '93 , two regular season division champions ontario hockey league meet best seven series start playoff season winner series earns right host memorial cup , traditionally held may eventual champion also participate league champs also happen club hosting memorial cup , league advance well charles poulin \( mon draft \) st \( \) '92 canadian hockey league player year 1992 memorial cup seattle round robin standings w l gf ga sault ste marie \( \) 3 0 14 8 kamloops blazers \( whl \) 2 1 10 7 seattle thunderbirds \( whl host \) 1 2 9 10 college \( \) 0 3 5 13 semifinal kamloops 8 seattle 3 final kamloops 5 sault ste marie 4 central hockey league contact marc foster mfoster uoknor edu mfoster alliant backbone uoknor edu ted aud alcatel com see section 5 newsletter information chl fort worth fire , wichita thunder , dallas freeze , tulsa oilers , memphis river kings , oklahoma city blazers six non affiliated teams play 60 game schedule extending early november mid march team owned league , local interests controlling day day operations team 100 , 000 salary cap 17 total players \( 16 dress \) unlike echl , players limited three years league western division may added central hockey league 93 94 season plans chl president ray miron miron confirmed el paso , , tuscon , albuquerque cities consideration western division , would play games eastern division meanwhile , san antonio houston close confirmed league 's newest members major league hockey new hockey league franchises throughout united states canada begin play 1993 , officials announced wednesday , february 10 major league hockey founded roy boe , former president new york islanders national hockey league new york new jersey nets american national basketball associations according boe , league debut six eight teams playing schedule approximately 80 games franchise applications received groups chicago , cleveland , dallas , denver , detroit , houston , minneapolis st paul , phoenix , san francisco , saskatoon , toronto worcester , mass , boe said although league raid existing leagues stock rosters , boe said seek 's finest hockey players '' boe said league play international discussed implementing rules reminiscent ``we 're removing red line , moving goal nets forward eliminating tie games , '' said boe mlh office operate , conn british premier division contacts neil nmcglynn axion bt co uk \( na \) nmcglynn uk co bt axion \( europe \) steve steve cs hw ac uk contact steve gb usenet draft e mail list send e mail uk hockey request cee hw ac uk subscribe durham wasps defeated nottingham panthers 7 6 '92 british championship game finnish elite league \( sm \) contacts juha hockey tac fi vesa j veikko vipunen hut fi final standings 91 92 1 \) jokerit , helsinki 2 \) ht , jyvaskyla 3 \) , helsinki 4 \) assat , 5 \) tps , turku 6 \) , 7 \) , kuopio 8 \) hpk , 9 \) , tampere 10 \) , 11 \) tappara , tampere 12 \) , joensuu dropped espoo espoo qualified sm individual stats leaders 91 92 points makela mikko , tps 25 45 70 \( playoffs 2 3 5 \) scoring selanne teemu , jokerit 39 23 62 \( playoffs 10 7 17 \) stars 91 92 briza petr \( \) , hannu \( tps \) , \( ht \) , makela mikko \( tps \) , \( jokerit \) , selanne teemu \( jokerit \) german hockey league contact andreas cs tu berlin de tub uucp defeated sb '92 german final swedish elite league \( elitserien \) contact staffan axelsson etxonss ufsa ericsson se 1992 93 regular season final standings 1 2 3 malmo 4 5 modo 6 lulea 7 leksand 8 9 hv 71 10 11 12 aik defeated lulea 3 games 2 1993 swedish hockey championship swiss first division became 1992 93 champions swiss league beating 4 2 sweep final series 3 0 1992 women 's world championships finland 1 canada , 2 usa , 3 finland , 4 sweden , 5 china , 6 norway , 7 denmark , 8 switzerland 1993 world junior hockey championships sweden final standings gp w l gf ga p 1 canada 7 6 0 1 37 17 20 12 2 sweden 7 6 0 1 53 15 38 12 3 czechoslovakia 7 4 1 2 38 27 11 9 4 usa 7 4 0 3 32 23 9 8 5 finland 7 3 1 3 31 20 11 7 6 russia 7 2 2 3 26 20 6 6 7 germany 7 1 0 6 16 37 21 2 8 japan 7 0 0 7 9 83 74 0 canada wins gold due head head result vs sweden 5 info available via e mail requesting items via e mail please include preferred address body message sometimes reply address good thing go ftp site wuarchive wustl edu \( 128 252 135 4 \) directory doc misc sports nhl new hockey files get readme file information contents e mail lists list topic \( freq \) subscribe boston bruins bruins request cs usask ca list address bruins cs usask ca buffalo sabres sabres request potter csh rit edu list address sabres potter csh rit edu los angeles kings kings request cs stanford edu list address kings cs stanford edu montreal canadiens habs request janus sdsu edu list address habs janus sdsu edu philadelphia flyers seth att com pittsburgh penguins andrew cmu edu list address andrew cmu edu st louis blues jca2 cec1 wustl edu san jose sharks sharks request medraut apple com list address sharks medraut apple com tampa bay lightning wilson cs ucf edu vancouver canucks sfu ca list address vancouver canucks sfu ca washington capitals david eng umd edu list address caps monster umd edu nhl boxscores \( f \) cbnewsh cb att com nhl boxscores \( \) jpc philabs philips com nhl goalie stats \( \) coulman cs usask ca nhl scores \( n \) wilson cs ucf edu nhl team stats \( w \) wilson cs ucf edu ahl newsletter ahl news request hamlet cmu edu list address ahl news hamlet cmu edu echl newsletter echl news request andrew cmu edu list address echl news andrew cmu edu us college hockey \( see section 3 \) ncaa division iii hockey request mitre org list address request mitre org chl newsletter mfoster uoknor edu british league uk hockey request uk ac hw cs olympic hockey \( see section 4 \) freq f monday friday , saturday sunday , daily , n nightly , w weekly something interesting , make available requesting , use keyword body subject also , specify team , date , etc , applicable available eric cleveland freenet edu keyword description ahl team addresses canada junior teams tv stations team radio stations team us junior teams xxxx \( xxxx 1989 1992 \) nhl entry draft 1991 nhl expansion dispersal draft available rob ultb isc rit edu keyword description ahl date info ahl ihl date info ihl nhl c c program prints 91 92 nhl schedule specified day available stan willis willis empire dnet hac com keyword description attend 91 92 nhl team home attendance report quarters nhl team logos postscript available david anthony wyatt wyatt ccu umanitoba ca keyword description time list professional hockey franchises available roland behunin behunin oo af mil keyword description satellite info nhl teams available mike machnik nin15b34 merrimack edu keyword description 92 93 ncaa division scores mike also provide schedule 46 division teams people ask e mail details available bill clare clare kodak com keyword description retired list retired numbers nhl players available staffan axelsson etxonss ufsa ericsson se keyword description world championships 1920 1992 world championships time standings , pool 1920 1992 world championships star teams 1961 1992 world championships gold winning rosters 1958 1992 \( specify xx 58 92 \) history given world junior hockey championships team player stats world junior hockey championships available paul brownlow paul data io com keyword description past canadian hockey league players year past memorial cup winners available wilson cs ucf edu use , send e mail wilson cs ucf edu subject body containing word help receive list allowable commands things available nhl team league schedules , plethora team statistics , scores games , assorted hockey files seasons 1988 1992 available new material added 1 19 93 available mitch mcgowan hamlet u washington edu keyword description rosters 1993 nhl star game rosters 1991 92 nhl leaders \( scoring , goals , assists , power play goals , short handed goals , game winning goals , shots , goals average , victories , save percentage , shutouts \) zamboni alan 's book zamboni opening 1991 nhl awards broadcast available matt militzok mmilitzo skidmore edu keyword description stats date nhl statistics available harry peltz mailbox syr edu keyword description scores compilation nhl scores current month \( compressed uuencoded format \) dates also specified specific box scores , try request many one time \( max 5 box scores three days \) available richard stueven gak wrs com keyword description direct current nhl directory file available michael burger mmb lamar colostate edu keyword description tv radio stations teams along network information date division standings scores obtained archives college hockey mailing list send message server listserv maine maine edu body containing commands \( either \) get stand \( division conference standings \) get schedule \( full season listing division scores \) schedule 1000 lines long standings file 50 lines files updated less weekly around monday contact mike machnik \( nin15b34 merrimack edu \) questions 6 usenet hockey pool send e mail andrew idacom hp com 7 coming dates apr 18 may 2 1993 world championships \( pool \) , munich , germany jun 26 nhl entry draft , quebec city , quebec feb 12 feb 27 , 1994 olympic winter games , , norway 8 answers frequently asked questions q montreal canadiens called habs \? team 40 50 's made people lived around montreal hence called les \( natives montreal \) shortened habs q montreal canadiens logo large c h within \? 1914 15 , canadiens logo consisted c within signify club \( cac \) next year , cac longer existed changed signify club de hockey q informative hockey publication \? hockey news preferred north american hockey fans weekly journal date info phone 800 268 \( canada us \) phone fax \( uk rest europe \) q 5 minute power play count penalty killing stats nhl \? x goals scored , team gets credit x goals x 1 chances q computed nhl \? first , applies skaters except power play goal , goal scored , skater ice scoring team given , skater ice team given short handed goals count q five hole \? space goalie 's pads five major scoring zones \( 1 \) upper left corner goal , \( 2 \) upper right , \( 3 \) lower left , \( 4 \) lower right , \( 5 \) five hole q meaning throwing octopus ice \? tradition began detroit 1950 's two best seven series required win stanley cup every time detroit game , octopus one less arm thrown ice q first woman play nhl game \? manon rheaume , 20 year old goaltender , became first woman ever play nhl game september 23 , 1992 started net expansion tampa bay lightning exhibition st louis blues rheaume played first period 8 , 223 10 , 400 seat expo hall florida state fairgrounds allowed two goals nine shots left score tied 2 2 , although lightning ultimately lost game , 6 4 q richest contract nhl history \? mario lemieux , superstar center pittsburgh penguins , signed richest contract nhl history , seven year deal believed worth 42 million lemieux earn 6 million 7 million year , nearly twice much player league q new commissioner nhl \? gary bettman , vice president general counsel national basketball association , named commissioner national hockey league , friday , december 11 , 1992 bettman joined nba 1981 assistant general counsel became league 's chief legal officer september 1984 new york resident , bettman graduated cornell university 1974 new york university school law 1977 q many professional hockey leagues north america \? six national , american , international , east coast , central colonial hockey leagues 9 miscellaneous field hockey discussions , go newsgroup rec sport hockey field skating discussions , go newsgroup rec skate sites get another hockey group , called clari sports hockey c h consists upi feed upi news articles related hockey , including game results , summaries , scores , standings , etc much information nhl team news section comes newsgroup rec sport hockey frequently asked questions posting posted semi monthly , usually 1st 15th month , hockey season file originally created tom wilson , posted 1991 92 season taken mitch mcgowan 1992 93 season please make corrections via e mail , indicating r h faq subject line feel free start discussion previously mentioned topic \( use appropriate subject line \) mitch mcgowan hamlet u washington edu 1
robert angelo pleshar rp16 andrew cmu edu subject barasso cheap shot master \? organization university libraries e library , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 19 nntp posting host po4 andrew cmu edu watching year \( many teams possible \) , 've really noticed increase tom barasso 's cheap shots year \( noticed increase goaltenders \) 've also noticed usually gets away examples last night , noticed scott stevens head , basically started whole shoving match got stevens \( scott \) tocchet 2 minute minors also kicked john mclean course n't called n't kicking automatic match penalty 10 game suspension \? think glenn anderson got one years ago kicking gaetan duchesne chest 's doubt mind barasso since hextall 's also good tocchet head butt \? automatic goes along \( non kicking \) match penalty \? ca n't remember anymore oh , playoffs fun , ralph
robert angelo pleshar rp16 andrew cmu edu subject beat pittsburgh ! organization university libraries e library , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 19 kfnjyea00uh i1vmus andrew cmu edu nntp posting host po5 andrew cmu edu reply kfnjyea00uh i1vmus andrew cmu edu anna matyas could clone chelios 's personality transplant defensemen islanders , capitals , devils gerald words , want turn assholes spend lots time penalty box get lots \? comes chelios fan yeah , also second team scoring play 35 minutes game play power play kill penalties best defenseman league 'd take whole team could \( way , one got penalty others could kill ! \) ralph
etxonss ufsa ericsson se \( staffan axelsson \) subject bruins pens ulf fight nntp posting host uipc104 ericsson se organization ericsson telecom , stockholm , sweden lines 38 hawk samsung com \( matt brown \) writes messier samuelsson incident true , strictly speaking , initially used stick illegally measure messier 's question mind , seeing replay slo mo , ulf 2000 coming messier intent la vista mind , gone agree rick ulf 's cross check n't illegal kind check see dozen times game without called slo mos sometimes tendency make things look worse really besides , messier ca n't take heat , stay kitchen staffan , mattias year \? impression markus \? \? \? \( lost roster list \) \? look like make next year \? get markus goes boston \? well matt , mattias n't playing modo elite league team yet \( modo junior team \) , predict needs years join b 's saw play swedish championship game junior players year , played well , physical game , kind rough stuff ulfie \( suspect would like ulf type player b 's team \? \) , great season division 1 scored remember correctly 93 points season , keep mind 50 point season sweden considered good due limited number games property \( loan \) , play elitserien next season , unless b 's get course would say one exciting player watch swedish hockey season staffan \( \( staffan axelsson etxonss ufsa ericsson se \) \) r h contact swedish hockey
vaxa hofstra edu \( gary \) subject isles hockey lines 43 well , patrick division got little interesting last night islanders lost ot devils tied pens means isles beat devils friday , meet caps playoffs however , comments islanders hockey general need get chest \) first , islanders back back performances whalers , one may think islanders shape guys always suck wind 2nd period , come little 3rd run gas soon many one goal games guys lost anyway , games pretty wide open isles still tons trouble scoring whalers played 1st nhl start , think name lenarduzzi \( sp \? \) \( nhl debut tuesday tie isles \) like mentioned , guy looked like best planet \( misplayed slap shot go ot \) say 's isles n't shoot correctly anyone else noticed \? also , think really shame hockey guy like mick vukota gets much ice time guy much hockey talent macdonald \( play hockey , think \) anytime gets puck gets stolen , always starts fights gets needless penalties richard pilon another guy ice stir crap 's defenseman 's got approaching negative infinity plus minus guy gets beaten time need enforcers \? fights slow game alot , takes away guys really trying play game 'll one admit , enjoy good fight , 's called know , guy checks goalie hard words , violation hockey ethics might cause get need start crap losing becuase get away ! ! anyone agree need little less lenient 3rd ot \? mean come already i'm sick seeing teams pulling guys , holding guys etc becuase referee n't call ot late 3rd time strategy , physical prowess trying set goal first foremost afraid team going score pull guy prevent , n't deserve win first place honest opinion , gary hofstra vaxb hofstra edu hofstra bitnet
etxonss ufsa ericsson se \( staffan axelsson \) subject pens info needed nntp posting host uipc104 ericsson se organization ericsson telecom , stockholm , sweden lines 44 kevin l stamber writes 's anyone help items , please let know markus naslund saw modo lost early national tournament playing national team world championships stats available \? word 's playing \? expected join club \? markus good season modo swedish elite league , scoring 22 goals , 17 assists , 39 points 67 pim 39 games daryl points , markus wo n't joining pens year 's playoffs , since world championships starts april 18th good chance markus join pens next season modo , though , naturally wants keep superstars forsberg naslund , latest news modo looking personal sponsors forsberg naslund order match kind money would receive nhl daryl turner writes 'the , would assume mean pens n't hold breath , n't going see naslund year world championship tournament n't start 18 april nhl teams wo n't see europeans , team playing wc see sudden nhlers earliest player playoff bound team could join wc team last game round robin , doubt coach going want play short one player long actually , swedish coach curt thinking leaving two spots open additions eliminated nhlers mats sundin calle johansson curt hopes join team , although late stage tournament technically , seem recall leave spots open 24 hrs wc final staffan \( \( staffan axelsson etxonss ufsa ericsson se \) \) r h contact swedish hockey
pkortela snakemail hut fi \( petteri kortelainen \) subject expanding europe dusseldorf nntp posting host lk hp 17 hut fi organization helsinki university technology , finland lines 31 article 1993apr13 abo fi mlindroos finabo abo fi \( marcus lindroos inf \) writes n't say every team must number local players rather , european teams get chance sign top players rest league comes agree n't important , eg german league average close 10 , 000 fans n't single german born forward ! lion milan made european final four fifteen canadian born players nationality going issue sweden finland , think really need issue preventing lindros mario ending drafted european team vice versa player trades different matter player end anywhere drafted deg many german born forwards team fact majority players german born 1992 93 deg average spectator arena possible nhl \( european league \) site list switzerland berne , zurich \( 1 2 others \) germany dusseldorf , cologne , berlin , munich \( mannheim , \) sweden stockholm , gothenburg \( malmo , \) finland helsinki \( turku , tampere \) italy milan france paris \( , \? \) norway \( oslo \) austria \( vienna , \) \( \) slovakia \( bratislava \) russia \( moscow , st petersburg \) great britain \? netherlands \? petteri kortelainen
mlindroos finabo abo fi \( marcus lindroos inf \) subject sweden finland , april 14 reply etxonss ufsa ericsson se 's message thu , 15 apr 1993 06 32 53 gmt organization abo akademi university , finland x news reader vms news 1 24 lines 36 1993apr15 ericsson se etxonss ufsa ericsson se writes played stockholm globe arena , april 14 1993 sweden finland 4 3 \( 2 0 , 0 2 , 2 1 \) 1st swe 1 0 jan larsson \( stefan nilsson , patrik juhlin \) 3 15 swe 2 0 peter popovic \( mikael renberg , thomas rundqvist \) 16 20 2nd fin 2 1 mika nieminen \( ville siren , mikko \) 0 40 fin 2 2 timo saarikoski \( vesa , \) 17 48 \( sh \) 3rd swe 3 2 fredrik stillman \( stefan nilsson , patrik juhlin \) 7 35 \( pp \) swe 4 2 mikael renberg 8 40 fin 4 3 saku koivu \( mika \) 13 17 shots goal penalties attendance referee sweden 14 12 15 41 4 2min 12 , 470 borje johansson finland 12 9 9 30 9 2min \( sweden \) well , things different way , headline would nhl , european division regular season game stockholm storm vs helsinki tornado 4 3 two games every north american based team \( 46 \) , might ninth final regular season encounter helsinki stockholm remaining 27 games would involve paris , dortmund , milan nice dream marcu \( \( staffan axelsson etxonss ufsa ericsson se \) \) r h contact swedish hockey
dchhabra stpl ists ca \( deepak chhabra \) subject leaf slump nntp posting host stpl ists ca organization solar terresterial physics laboratory , ists lines 39 march 21 , 1993 roger maynard wrote \( reply article graham hudson \) still jennings trophy end year potvin good , believe star , want see perform playoffs pressure n't think performing pressure \? major differences playoff hockey normal hockey 1 play ing every night physically exhausting 2 play team consecutive string games mean pressure \? even thought mean pressure , thoughts , like rest drivel , simply half baked \? 6192 ramsey cs laurentian ca , anybody would like check went \( another article \) say paraphrased playoff hockey expression used announcers convince simple minded folks like seeing better product regular season game , however , article 1993apr12 ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) writes 4 2 win tough whaler squad leafs showed doubters playoff hockey , roger , exactly playoff hockey \? convenient phrase use certain circumstances \? see , spout flame bait many times , sooner later catches
dchhabra stpl ists ca \( deepak chhabra \) subject mogilny must benched nntp posting host stpl ists ca organization solar terresterial physics laboratory , ists lines 36 article acsu buffalo edu ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( andrew w \) writes anyway , game continued trend sadly taking shape couple weeks hoped fatigue , aberration , ca n't snow longer alex mogilny must benched disciplinary action , soon explanation ysebaert jumping lafontaine score winning goal yesterday \? n't guy , ask patty actually stuff mogilny n't surprise much 4 5 weeks ago read toronto sun quote alex went something like yep , patty 's man 's responsible team 's success i'm nobody around going post time must forgot since nobody else talking problem heard locker room , 'd beat shit spot patty took responsibility press , taking heat alex 's lafontaine class , team player yep , 'd beat shit lafontaine really must team player makes wonder islander management thinking question hell muckler \? whether wishes admit , team coach , ca n't job maybe job given somebody gee , kinda like alex 's spot team , n't \? dr devils advocate
dchhabra stpl ists ca \( deepak chhabra \) subject canadians another stanley cup nntp posting host stpl ists ca organization solar terresterial physics laboratory , ists distribution na lines 37 article ryevm ryerson ca ryevm ryerson ca writes im sorry tell , unless pull another 1986 miracle , way habs win year ever since traded ramage , since savard came injury , playing cant blame roy 4 0 loss washington , 20 players could score one goal know , think boston fan , years dedicated les habs david degan well , seems habs much talked late , 's 0 02 guys absolutely concept play front damn net ! ! ! watch offensive zone , especially powerplay damphousse lebeau skate bloody zone , maybe pass point , get back , skate , pass around shot \? \? ! answer shot totally useless lack forward stands front net neely , shanahan , tocchet , etc etc bad demers wo n't put dipietro leclair powerplay often dammit , even would least cause montreal desperately needs power forward talent , imo watch zone patrick roy screened everything say want performance cannot stop cannot see montreal 's defence miserable job clearing front net last night washington roy played great game first goal came ridiculous scramble 've seen long time , n't hope hell stopping shot second goal came deflection shot partially saw anyway pathetic defence third goal en wonder gets pissed dchhabra stpl ists ca
dchhabra stpl ists ca \( deepak chhabra \) subject vlad 's playoff picks nntp posting host stpl ists ca organization solar terresterial physics laboratory , ists lines 156 article vzhivov cunews vzhivov alfred carleton ca \( vladimir zhivov \) writes wales conference , adams division , semifinal boston vs buffalo bruins playing excellent hockey , cam neely back moog old self cake walk bruins 5 i'm hoping fuhr miracle , agree boston likely win series goaltending equal , top offensive players equal \( mogilny lafontaine vs oates juneau \) , buffalo answer neely \( imply neely top offensive player btw , fact 's one even though 's damn bruin \) \) rest matchup wrt lineup boston anyway think go six quebec vs montreal one tough call montreal certainly experience factor , quebec talented imho 'll come goalies 'll go experience roy canadiens 7 agreed montreal pushed limit , everything montreal playoffs come roy \? go habs ! ! final boston vs montreal bruin domination continue rivalry \? yes moog consistently roy playoffs \( 1986 \) stuff bruins five ca n't predict montreal victory 've watching play 6 weeks imo severly need tougher players , especially play garden last time beat b 's 5 2 boston clear territorial advantage victory roy 's time , ca n't bring predict possibility loss , 'll say putting money series \) patrick division , semifinal pittsburgh vs ny islanders say \? pens flying high talent league agreed ny n't goaltending stop onslaught , independent trouble given pittsburgh year pens five , credit ny washington vs new jersey capitals 5 agreed , think go least six jersey decent team , washington done poorly division year pittsburgh vs washington caps bill ranford might see upset , beaupre n't inspire hopes penguins 6 think use tabaracci beaupre gets shelled n't think go six either maybe five conference final pittsburgh vs boston replay last year penguins good 12 months ago , bruins much improved penguins 6 pittsburgh plays boston , imo win likely five , possibly six bruins play montreal , think go seven , wo n't putting money seventh game say seven habs played pittsburgh tough season campbell conference , norris division , semifinal chicago vs st louis \( minnesota \) blackhawks 5 chicago win , think least six chicago good , imo remember take ridiculous numbers penalties detroit vs toronto leafs excellent season , 've playing playoff hockey year habs burns way always playoffs red wings 5 true leafs much proud , soon find montreal lousy playoffs toronto might win two three though wings six , maybe even seven final chicago vs detroit war fedorov win ot red wings 7 war possibly intense playoff series yes , think detroit win probert come big though smythe division semi finals vancouver vs winnipeg canucks 7 first disagreement canucks playing like shit n't use size , may explain get hammered 8 1 team chasing \( calgary \) winnipeg six calgary vs los angeles would tough call , except three things 1 kings n't goalie 2 gary roberts back 3 kings shot foot trading proven winner \( paul coffey \) proven loser \( jimmy carson \) gretzky weary carry group flames 5 also tough call , n't seen smythe enough n't think roberts well enough figure , coffey non issue , cares carson done , never underestimate gretzky la six final vancouver vs calgary flames 6 two , calgary need six games think la winnipeg anyway , la seven , home ice final detroit vs calgary red wings 7 wow , must 've tough go team let 's see , picked la detroit detroit win , probably six stanley cup final pittsburgh vs detroit three row official status pens \? wings complete dream season \? well , wings better goal \( sufficiently though imho \) better men however , mario boys sure score look jagr shine playoffs , though sure would love see probert beat sense pens much , especially since detroit tougher battle get penguins 5 pittsburgh plays detroit , go longer five , would n't bet wings strong , imo , nobody knows strong 've year forced choose , though , 'd take penguins side note vlad , last week said selanne better player gilmour way talented pure goal scorer aside age difference , way would take gilmour team i'm asking flames , either , btw 've spent enough time arguing behalf selanne still say 's great player gilmour dangerous offensively \( give teemu edge \) , gilmour know lot gilmour bashing goes , esp flame fans imo guys letting dislike gilmour cloud judgement comes skill easily one best round players nhl dchhabra stpl ists ca
c5ff jupiter sun csd unb ca \( cook charlie \) subject nhl summary parse results games played wed , april 14 , 1993 organization university new brunswick lines 147 boston 2 2 0 4 ottawa 0 1 1 2 first period 1 , boston , roberts 5 \( juneau \) 7 19 2 , boston , 1 \( juneau , oates \) 17 47 second period 3 , boston , neely 11 \( juneau , murphy \) 6 10 4 , boston , hughes 5 \( richer , kimble \) 7 55 5 , ottawa , 9 \( rumble , lamb \) 11 37 third period 6 , ottawa , boschman 9 \( kudelski \) 5 10 boston 4 power play 2 0 scorer g pts hughes 1 0 1 juneau 0 3 3 kimble 0 1 1 murphy 0 1 1 neely 1 0 1 oates 0 1 1 richer 0 1 1 roberts 1 0 1 1 0 1 ottawa 2 power play 4 0 scorer g pts 1 0 1 boschman 1 0 1 kudelski 0 1 1 lamb 0 1 1 rumble 0 1 1 washington 0 0 2 2 ny rangers 0 0 0 0 first period scoring second period scoring third period 1 , washington , bondra 36 \( pivonka , cavallini \) 6 54 2 , washington , bondra 37 \( cote , pivonka \) 10 10 washington 2 power play 2 0 scorer g pts bondra 2 0 2 cavallini 0 1 1 cote 0 1 1 pivonka 0 2 2 ny rangers 0 power play 1 0 scoring ny islanders 2 1 1 0 4 hartford 2 1 1 1 5 first period 1 , ny islanders , ferraro 13 \( malakhov , king \) 1 29 2 , ny islanders , hogue 32 \( thomas , turgeon \) 1 57 3 , hartford , yake 21 \( poulin \) 4 15 4 , hartford , yake 22 \( nylander , poulin \) 16 44 second period 5 , hartford , verbeek 39 \( cassels , weinrich \) pp , 2 43 6 , ny islanders , thomas 35 \( king , ferraro \) 7 58 third period 7 , hartford , burt 5 \( sanderson , cassels \) 13 41 8 , ny islanders , malakhov 14 \( hogue \) 17 45 overtime 9 , hartford , janssens 12 \( poulin \) 1 08 hartford 5 power play 3 1 scorer g pts burt 1 0 1 cassels 0 2 2 janssens 1 0 1 nylander 0 1 1 poulin 0 3 3 sanderson 0 1 1 verbeek 1 0 1 weinrich 0 1 1 yake 2 0 2 ny islanders 4 power play 3 0 scorer g pts ferraro 1 1 2 hogue 1 1 2 king 0 2 2 malakhov 1 1 2 thomas 1 1 2 turgeon 0 1 1 pittsburgh 2 3 1 0 6 new jersey 2 4 0 0 6 first period 1 , pittsburgh , daniels 5 \( needham , tippett \) 4 14 2 , new jersey , lemieux 29 \( semak , driver \) 10 19 3 , pittsburgh , stevens 55 \( tocchet , murphy \) pp , 12 40 4 , new jersey , zelepukin 22 \( driver , niedermayer \) 17 26 second period 5 , pittsburgh , lemieux 68 \( stevens , tocchet \) 1 42 6 , new jersey , semak 36 \( lemieux , zelepukin \) 2 27 7 , pittsburgh , mceachern 28 \( jagr , barrasso \) 4 24 8 , new jersey , stevens 12 \( guerin , pellerin \) 5 45 9 , pittsburgh , lemieux 69 \( unassisted \) sh , 12 40 10 , new jersey , richer 37 \( nicholls \) 15 53 11 , new jersey , lemieux 30 \( semak , zelepukin \) 17 40 third period 12 , pittsburgh , mullen 33 \( jagr , lemieux \) 18 54 overtime scoring pittsburgh 6 power play 5 1 special goals pp 1 sh 1 total 2 scorer g pts barrasso 0 1 1 daniels 1 0 1 jagr 0 2 2 lemieux 2 1 3 mceachern 1 0 1 mullen 1 0 1 murphy 0 1 1 needham 0 1 1 stevens 1 1 2 tippett 0 1 1 tocchet 0 2 2 new jersey 6 power play 3 0 scorer g pts driver 0 2 2 guerin 0 1 1 lemieux 2 1 3 nicholls 0 1 1 niedermayer 0 1 1 pellerin 0 1 1 richer 1 0 1 semak 1 2 3 stevens 1 0 1 zelepukin 1 2 3
subject rheaume start edu organization um st louis nntp posting host edu x newsreader nnr vm 1 3 2 lines 12 quick note manon 's immediate future rumor \( usa today 's ts page \) playing tampa bay 's affiliate echl \( thin k 's couple days \) \) supposedly competing num 2 goaltender spot think , performance , damn good someone n't played squat year , 'll seeing lot h er atlanta years come ward go blades ! ! bring home turner cup , ! !
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject 's bad new playoff format \? organization university toronto chemistry department distribution na lines 23 article bu edu icop csa bu edu \( antonio pera \) writes 's bad new playoff format \? really believe teams finish fourth div deserve playoffs \? new format , chance see teams really want see bruins sabres umpteen times would rather see bruins capitals round playoffs \? really nothing inherently wrong tried little decade ago , noone showed early rounds playoffs whereas soon went divisional set arenas mostly filled early rounds empirical evidence last two decades people show see bruins play sabre umpteen times see bruins play first round maybe hockey increased popularity sufficiently longer case experiment worthwhile distribution expansion teams , prefer divisional playoff gerald
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject sale edmonton oilers organization university toronto chemistry department lines 31 article ersys edmonton ab ca ersys edmonton ab ca \( mark bevan \) writes already offered 65 million northlands coliseum refused offer n't think going sale think may decide move team states though draw revenue team pocklington wanted wake powers holding political office , northlands , business community oilers current lease arrangement state yearly basis likely operating loss based normal hockey revenues expenses good thing better complain early , make city aware potential crisis begins lose millions millions dollars would truly jeopardize franchise pocklington 's first option sell move , sell minority share team \( realize appreciated value team \) get better arena deal , either northlands , via new building pocklington probably n't going get exactly wants ultimately probably get enough , sell someone probably get enough lot risks moving team also one remember peter puck 's principle better spend people 's money one 's possible gerald
saross01 starbase spd louisville edu \( stacey ross \) subject hockey hispanic community nntp posting host starbase spd louisville edu organization university louisville lines 26 c5i2s2 3bt odin corp sgi com rickc wrigley corp sgi com \( richard casares \) writes 'll hard time selling sport community ca n't play account availability financial reasons hockey pretty much sport white well \? ! white , yes well , definitely hockey season ticket owners lowest average income four major north american sports think majority hockey players come farm , saskatchewan , alberta last time saw hockey league inner city insurance alone big enough barrier inner city n't place poor think biggest barrier hockey inner city ice play rick casares silicon graphics wrigley corp sgi com 2011 n shoreline blvd wait till next year mountain view , ca 94039
organization penn state university psuvm psu edu subject winning streaks undergrad math uwaterloo ca 93105 psuvm psu edu lines 14 might want clarify 11 game winning streak pens streak playoff streak \( tied chicago blackhawks , 11 row met pens finals last year \) 18 game unbeaten , far , regular season unbeaten streak hey , n't take personally i'm flyers fan two row stretch healthy lindros , recchi , brind'amour tommy soderstrom , 'll next year ! way , since flyers need defenseman , kind trade would anybody suggest existing flyers roster since terry carkner wo n't next year apart piece notebook paper would better defense matt weaver \( properly found psuvm psu edu \) hey , least 're whalers !
galvint cs nps navy mil \( thomas galvin \) subject washington beat pitt organization naval postgraduate school , monterey ca lines 23 article 93105 psuvm psu edu robbie po rap115 psuvm psu edu writes article 1993apr14 mprgate mpr ca , galaxy mpr ca \( mathew \) says chances year \) , seems like washington team stop penguins winning next stanley cup really \? think islanders devils would better chance penguins capitals , imo robbie po pgh penguins ! ! ! wo n't easy , contact '93 '94 '91 stanley cup greater rewards penn state lady lions '92 champions mountains valleys rap115 psuvm psu edu 11 straight wins ! better nothing ! really \? makes think islanders better shot \? could n't even beat whalers two games ! \( well , since 're pens fans whole question moot think teams likely beat pens bruins , nordiques , blackhawks n't think really \) \) tom galvin galvint taurus cs nps navy mil
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject bruins vs canadiens organization university toronto chemistry department lines 17 article 1993apr14 amc com richard amc com \( richard wernick \) writes bottom line bruins better team year montreal fans screaming years beloved canadiens deserve another cup since removal french rule , screaming foul welcome league parity , something rest league years even habs beat boston playoffs , wo n't get pens agree , boston team french canadian rule extremely short term feature universal draft instituted sixties lasted years really n't substantial effect period canadiens stanley cup achievements earned level playing field gerald
smithw col hp com \( walter smith \) subject playoff predictions organization colorado springs center lines 41 nntp posting host fajita19 cs itc hp com ok , 'll join fun give playoff predictions 1st round pitt vs nyi pitt 4 wash vs njd wash 6 bos vs buf bos 5 que vs mon mon 7 chi vs stl chi 4 det vs tor det 6 van vs win win 6 cal vs la cal 5 2nd round pitt vs wash pitt 4 bos vs mon bos 6 chi vs det chi 7 win vs cal cal 5 3rd round pitt vs bos pitt 5 chi vs cal chi 5 finals pitt vs chi pitt 5 walter
lli cs cmu edu \( lori iannamico \) subject giveaways nntp posting host lli mach cs cmu edu organization school computer science , carnegie mellon lines 13 article 1993apr14 philabs philips com jpc philabs philips com \( john p curcio \) writes 's probably could n't find anyone maybe uss could pittsburgh penguins us steel steel rod night close enough \? maybe 60 's , steel dead industry pgh , giveaway night 90 's pgh would baboon liver night pittsburgh zoo lori
gtd597a prism gatech edu \( hrivnak \) subject goalie masks organization georgia institute technology lines 13 i'm starting informal poll goalie masks 'd like know 's mask think looks best 've always like curtis joseph 's blues best anyway , send nominations , post vote r h e mail adress gtd597a prism gatech edu thanks time go skins ! next question emotional music quite go braves ! effect \? mike patton , faith go hornets ! go capitals ! mike friedman \( hrivnak fan ! \) internet gtd597a prism gatech edu
ayari loria fr \( ayari iskander \) subject nhlpa poll \( stats 2nd \) organization crin inria lorraine lines 40 2nd standings poll 29 votes 5 points 1st , 4 2nd , 1 point 5th ea nhlpa game 1 det 78 2 chi 67 3 van 60 4 ny 59 5 mtl 54 6 pit 23 7 20 8 bos 17 9 que 9 10 cal 8 11 asw 7 12 la 5 tor 5 14 4 win 4 16 buf 3 phi 3 18 sj 2 19 min 1 1 atlanta win turner cup 1 \( game , 1 person vote \) continue send votes format \( april 20th , approximately \) 1 2 3 4 5
bdown vis toronto edu \( brian \) subject barasso cheap shot master \? organization department computer science , university toronto lines 27 robert angelo pleshar rp16 andrew cmu edu writes watching year \( many teams possible \) , 've really noticed increase tom barasso 's cheap shots year \( noticed increase goaltenders \) look ed belfour also kicked john mclean course n't called belfour kicked gallant wings played couple weeks ago penalty review suspension attacked bob probert previous period penalized 's doubt mind barasso since hextall 's also good likewise belfour bad goes much ! \) ralph brian \( bdown vis toronto edu \)
polaris utu fi \( pasi fr nti \) subject plus minus stat organization university turku , finland lines 20 lor cbnewsk cb att com \( edward lor \) writes player points subtraction lemieux 157 53 104 lafontaine 145 13 132 oates 141 12 129 yzerman 138 33 105 selanne 137 8 129 wrong among lemieux 's 157 points , know many power play points may able find many pp goal scored , many pp assist accumulated also n't know times ice credited goals pens scored point really straight dependency scored points apparently netters realized
uxa ecn bgu edu \( brian johnson \) subject hawks return finals ! ! ! ! ! organization educational computing network lines 11 distribution world nntp posting host uxa ecn bgu edu well hawks division road little easier playoffs let toronto detroit beat hell chicago sweeps st louis makes easier second round rest get tor det getting none conf champ hard time versus division div pretty battered also advantage goes hawks bring pitt sure hawks probably lose better get far lose go brian
gjp sei cmu edu \( george pandelios \) subject washington beat pitt organization software engineering institute lines 35 article 1993apr14 27513 ncsu edu , fmsalvat eos ncsu edu \( frank michae salvatore \) writes makes think \? 'd like understand reasoning seat , caps n't really appear believe defeat pittsburgh therefore , n't think spirit broken last year 's playoffs n't really recovered n't know season series numbers , believe pens think either devils islanders cause problems spirit crap \? i'm caps fan hope win end facing pittsburgh , n't think caps lose pitt lack spirit yes , penguins season series caps 've eighteen games row god 's sake ever think penguins might good , 's win \? read wrote n't say exactly thought sure pens better team 've got size best skill players league 've also got best clutch goaltending 're best team league , point caps played ability level vs pens since last year 's choke 's mental problem \( one 've number years \) tried point spirit , mental , win , whatever want call , 's missing caps play pens actually , 're right wo n't make difference george
wong fraser sfu ca \( sam wong \) subject mogilny must benched organization simon fraser university , burnaby , b c , canada lines 21 dchhabra stpl ists ca \( deepak chhabra \) writes actually stuff mogilny n't surprise much 4 5 weeks ago read toronto sun quote alex went something like yep , patty 's man 's responsible team 's success i'm nobody around going post time must forgot since nobody else gee , kinda like alex 's spot team , n't \? assume sarcastic remark \? someone whose first language english , would interpret comment mean believes pat mvp team one normal players quite modest might say
maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) subject leaf slump organization dept computer science , laurentian university , sudbury , lines 79 1993apr13 newshub ists ca dchhabra stpl ists ca \( deepak chhabra \) writes march 21 , 1993 roger maynard wrote \( reply article graham hudson \) n't think performing pressure \? major differences playoff hockey normal hockey 1 play ing every night physically exhausting 2 play team consecutive string games mean pressure \? even thought mean pressure , thoughts , like rest drivel , simply half baked \? 6192 ramsey cs laurentian ca , anybody would like check went \( another article \) say paraphrased playoff hockey expression used announcers convince simple minded folks like seeing better product regular season game , however , article 1993apr12 ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) writes 4 2 win tough whaler squad leafs showed doubters playoff hockey , roger , exactly playoff hockey \? convenient phrase use certain circumstances \? see , spout flame bait many times , sooner later catches nice try deepak , tough whaler squad fact leaf woofing tongue cheek playoff hockey intense regular season variety teams facing least 4 consecutive times 7 days hockey contact sport , things carried might dissipate regular season players many rest , playing injuries , miss families , , like grant fuhr , would really rather playing golf , n't really give damn course ca n't say sure , believe fairly typical human nature n't think hockey players consider typically human attitudes recent salary key players actually losing money participating playoffs ones regard playoff take kind fringe players unlikely consistently force playoffs know going come back winning spirit crap players professionals may love play game love entirely incidental purpose , , make decent living course , coach professional well , part paid motivate players , coach job well enough players may respond winning effort second season , , merely exhibition true champions league division winners , teams come top long struggle season stanley cup playoffs merely accord victory team remained healthy hot emphasis playoffs , sudden death appeal promoted media owners profit purely mind even pittsburgh loses playoffs , know really best team league year proved cordially , always , rm roger maynard maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca
s4lawren sms business uwo ca \( stephen lawrence \) subject playoff predictions organization university western ontario nntp posting host sms business uwo ca lines 50 smithw col hp com \( walter smith \) writes ok , 'll join fun give playoff predictions 1st round pitt vs nyi pitt 4 wash vs njd wash 6 bos vs buf bos 5 que vs mon mon 7 chi vs stl chi 4 det vs tor det 6 van vs win win 6 cal vs la cal 5 2nd round pitt vs wash pitt 4 bos vs mon bos 6 chi vs det chi 7 win vs cal cal 5 3rd round pitt vs bos pitt 5 chi vs cal chi 5 finals pitt vs chi pitt 5 walter bad , got 2 wrong , cal chi 5 cal pit 6 \( 7 \) take sc s4lawren sms business uwo ca \( stephen lawrence \) western business school london , ontario
gjp sei cmu edu \( george pandelios \) subject patrick playoffs look like organization software engineering institute lines 73 article bson hal gnu ai mit edu , bson gnu ai mit edu \( jan brittenson \) writes article 1993apr13 sei cmu edu gjp sei cmu edu \( george pandelios \) writes pens wo n't playing montreal , boston win adams divisional play buffalo quebec make decent boston , sheer determination , win game pens , heart , pens many big guns many ways win boston indeed win adams \( nothing certain \) , indeed gets play pens , think 'll find different boston team year boston use every trick book shut pens offense something n't even try last year pens' weak spot defense goaltending boston first , enjoyed reading post second , disagree pen 's weak spot defense goaltending couple reasons barrasso spectacular year slow start , consistently sharp , gaa 3 0 , leads league wins tommy deserves vezina given lack respect commands , though , doubt win reason concerns pens' team defense around 3rd 4th goals allowed big improvement , indicates playing better team defense shut pens' offense get early goal , real game pens score first , 's practically n't think pens discipline stick team game 're held scoreless 5 minutes second boston n't guns pens , pens n't defense , goaltending , discipline boston still , boston put puck net remember boston run gun patrick style team , although played run gun hockey better part regular season \( n't \) even neely way behind net necessary penalty killing big factor boston , believe 2 last 40 something short handed situations , meaning scored 4 giving 2 ppg \( one game ottawa \) 'd say series go 5 6 i'm much less certain whether favor pens b 's styles going playoffs different make predictable still , 'd place bets pens think prediction b 's get first goal four games , 'll take series otherwise pens 'd rather wait see whether b 's actually get adams begin buffalo , quebec , montreal n't exactly planning call game go home ! jan brittenson bson gnu ai mit edu 'll see 'll fun george george j pandelios internet gjp sei cmu edu software engineering institute usenet sei ! gjp 4500 fifth avenue voice \( 412 \) 268 7186 pittsburgh , pa 15213 fax \( 412 \) 268 5758 disclaimer opinions reflect software engineering institute , sponsors , customers , clients , affiliates , carnegie mellon university fact , resemblence opinions individual , living dead , fictional real , purely coincidental
hammerl acsu buffalo edu \( valerie hammerl \) subject playoff telecasts atlanta organization ub lines 29 nntp posting host lictor acsu buffalo edu article hsdndev harvard edu nhmas gauss med harvard edu \( mark shneyder 432 4219 \) writes article andrew cmu edu mamatha devineni ratnam mr47 andrew cmu edu writes anyone know patrick division games going televised espn abc \? games going left \( blanked dumb southern abc affiliates \) , wondering anyone knows sports bars atlanta hockey fans n't want miss pens games sure islander fans \( rangers dead \) would want watch every pens islanders game atlanta circle tuesday , april 20th tv calendar espn carry game 2 pittsburgh 's civic arena pittsburgh vs 4th place div personally , bruins buffalo montreal quebec city much better matchup espn hoping pens series 's likely get way mario playing past month 'd personally prefer buffalo boston , birthday gift espn , n't think folks espn accomodate \) espn affinity patrick division , seems valerie hammerl days remind 's hammerl acsu buffalo edu mario lemieux herb brooks claude acscvjh ubms cc buffalo edu lemieux , top scorer devils , v085pwwpz ubvms cc buffalo edu known taking dumb penalties
hammerl acsu buffalo edu \( valerie hammerl \) subject david polie 's future organization ub lines 18 nntp posting host lictor acsu buffalo edu article hydra gatech edu gtd597a prism gatech edu \( hrivnak \) writes article andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu \( gary james \) writes bad news patrick division next year caps gm david polie reportedly trying get front office job nhl ca n't believe polie fired despite 10 years mediocrity yes ! yes ! gone ! gone ! ! ! ! ! ! ! wish happened traded hrivnak anyway , gone ! ! ! 's gone yet position opening polie sabres' gm gerry meehan think 'd like see meehan gone valerie hammerl days remind 's hammerl acsu buffalo edu mario lemieux herb brooks claude acscvjh ubms cc buffalo edu lemieux , top scorer devils , v085pwwpz ubvms cc buffalo edu known taking dumb penalties
jake rambler eng sun com \( jason cockroft \) subject playoff predictions organization sun microsystems , inc lines 95 distribution world reply jake rambler eng sun com nntp posting host rambler eng sun com 1st round pitt vs nyi pitt 4 looks like safe bet nyi late nyi njd friday night honour pittsburg anyway 4 wash vs njd wash 6 think njd solid team compete wash agree though wash 6 bos vs buf bos 5 b 's playing awesome hockey last two weeks question long last \? fuhr dud bos 4 que vs mon mon 7 seems mon much like van chemistry habs seem que 5 chi vs stl chi 4 stl playoffs chi 4 det vs tor det 6 leaf fan seems leafs offense shutting last week turn around detroit recall , last couple time two teams met , leafs n't know allowed canada yet , det 5 , det 6 van vs win win 6 upset making another team bad chemistry something gone foul among linden , momesso bure win 6 cal vs la cal 5 anybody says la could possibly beet cal watch smythe whole lot la bunch cal 4 2nd round pitt vs wash pitt 4 seems egos team saving grace though bowman put anybody place however , pigs quick first round , may little high wash could surprise said , say pitt 6 bos vs mon bos 6 mon bos surprising late cam great couple wins que last week sold b 's b 's 6 chi vs det chi 7 yikes pretty det running like machine late 've non busy end season played like killers det 6 win vs cal cal 5 cal solid team , little weak nets cal muscle win cal 5 3rd round pitt vs bos pitt 5 hate pitt logic dark side take give bos extra push needs dump pitt may something think rivalry bos 7 chi vs cal chi 5 finals pitt vs chi pitt 5 , , bos vs det n't know say teams flying go goaltending muscle say det 7 jake
gballent hudson uvic ca \( greg ballentine \) subject plus minus stat nntp posting host hudson uvic ca reply gballent hudson uvic ca organization university victoria , victoria , bc , canada lines 56 article ramsey cs laurentian ca , maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) writes 1993apr14 sol uvic ca gballent vancouver uvic ca \( greg ballentine \) writes 1 completely missed point selke trophy goes best defensive forward forward points help team defensively hero sorts yes , lemieux gilmour good defensive players , play offensively oriented style true defensive forward year , mean guys check ca n't score \? guys check score n't candidates \? right \? selke candidate forwards main purpose shift prevent goals scored score lemieux gilmour play number one purpose score defence secondary especially considering line plays probably defensive one selke candidates 2 tarasov called bob gainey best player world , assumed best technical player one knew every playing hockey never made technical error made assumption \? friends maybe \? sorry greg , 2 people n't enough assume want , think tarasov serious idiot someone posted something assumption lost translation \( months ago \) whoever please repost agree assessment bob gainey may best technical player ever right greg see sun something \? think claude \? gainey nothing journeyman player 's outstanding abilities entirely political might col defensive skills absolutely offensive skills none perhaps think abilities pass puck , shoot puck goalie defenseman technical skills \? gainey best defensive forward ever stand assessment good player belongs hall fame ever watch play \? never made technical error babbling deleted gee greg , pundits calling gilmour best two way player league way back st louis would expected picked pundits \? \? gilmour good st louis best two way player game gilmour net months good forward hardly best nhl gregmeister
gballent hudson uvic ca \( greg ballentine \) subject plus minus stat nntp posting host hudson uvic ca reply gballent hudson uvic ca organization university victoria , victoria , bc , canada lines 24 article 1 tnclus tele nokia fi , hahietanen tnclus tele nokia fi \( \) writes article 1993apr14 sol uvic ca , gballent vancouver uvic ca \( greg ballentine \) writes good stat stat aware takes account defensive play n't measure defensive play takes account offense defence aspects play interested real round players , power play stats considered , power play also one aspect play ! still something done player evaluation tools ! ! imo good player score power plays man advantage good power play scorers tend become overrated point totals inflated power play points tends expose overrated players brett hull , john cullen dave andreychuck given opportunity play power play consistently , player inflate totals gregmeister
gballent hudson uvic ca \( greg ballentine \) subject plus minus stat nntp posting host hudson uvic ca reply gballent hudson uvic ca organization university victoria , victoria , bc , canada lines 50 article mala bc ca , apland mala bc ca \( ron apland \) writes article 1993apr14 sol uvic ca , gballent vancouver uvic ca \( greg ballentine \) writes adjust 1 first calculate teams \( goals scored pp goals scored \) \( goals allowed pp goals allowed \( penalty killing \) \) 2 divide number 5 take account fact 5 players ice 1 5 responsible team 3 players adjusted \( raw \) \( team adjustment \) btw anyone could calculate post adjusted ratings would greatly appreciated might find time n't count database filter set player stats posted end season 'll repost team averages n't need go complicated team adjustment using need team average summing individual players' divide total number players team little distorted players traded recently come scores based original teams n't distort bad though want look individual players perspective go ahead 'll require original player stats though question team uses 40 players season merely divide total 40 \? , player plays 1 game considered equally valuable player plays another way looking thing compare deviation mean team player standard deviation team 'll post since standard deviation team different , unsure transferable teams stats n't average standard deviation league used \? interested seeing method still think mine best reason familiarity gregmeister
hamlet stein u washington edu \( mitch mcgowan \) subject minnesota recalls mcgowan \( help ! ! ! \) organization university washington lines 24 nntp posting host stein u washington edu hatcher 's game misconduct penalty rescinded nhl , allowing minnesota defenseman play north stars' last two regular season games hatcher given penalty fight end loss st louis sunday , april 11 league n't rescind game misconduct penalty shane churla received stars recalled center cal mcgowan top minor league club kalamazoo , mich , replace churla courtesy washington times line service , 's need help anyone tape tuesday 's chicago minnesota game , please contact terms favorable also , anyone tape tonight 's minnesota detroit game , please contact could quite important , make worth trouble thanks rec sport hockey contact minnesota north stars maintainer r h faq file mitch mcgowan k kalamazoo wings minnesota north stars hamlet u washington edu st saints toronto blue jays
polaris utu fi \( pasi fr nti \) subject helsinki stockholm nhl expansion \? organization university turku , finland lines 25 mlindroos finabo abo fi \( marcus lindroos inf \) writes low perhaps , surely high european nhl division finnish team , example , would contain players currently national team plus top class foreigner two would entirely different league tps jokerit , perhaps dozen players international class even settle minor league could best \? matter call teams , jokerit tps , helsinki tornado turku typhoon , best finland would eventually end teams anyway , big league 'd rather spend 150 marks watch helsinki tornado play montreal , ny rangers los angeles 50 marks \( \? \) privilege see jokerit vs jypht even 's nothing like nhl , period unrealistic maybe first expand finnish league allow teams baltic countries entry ! others get interested idea , maybe one settle something bigger ultimate goal , want , would european division nhl btw make final team american \?
rrmadiso undergrad math uwaterloo ca \( chuck \) subject playoff predictions organization university waterloo lines 38 everybody please send predictions stanley cup playoffs ! want see people think win ! ! ! ! ! ! ! please send format , something comparable 1 winner buffalo boston 2 winner montreal quebec 3 winner pittsburgh new york 4 winner new jersey washington 5 winner chicago \( minnesota st louis \) 6 winner toronto detroit 7 winner vancouver winnipeg 8 winner calgary los angeles 9 winner adams division \( 1 2 \) 10 winner patrick division \( 3 4 \) 11 winner norris division \( 5 6 \) 12 winner smythe division \( 7 8 \) 13 winner wales conference \( 9 10 \) 14 winner campbell conference \( 11 12 \) 15 winner stanley cup \( 13 14 \) summarize predictions , see biggest internet guru predicting guy gal send entries richard madison rrmadiso napier uwaterloo ca ps send entries one folks know say , ! ! ! ! ! \)
cleveland freenet edu \( jim \) subject hawks return finals ! ! ! ! ! organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 9 nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu hawks norris div , sealed fate 's bad luck win norris hawks sweep blues dreams lose 6 reality predict 6 game blues belfour go knees 7000 time spend rest time looking behind self butcher pound roenick one tough enough prevent bye bye hawks
umturne4 ccu umanitoba ca \( daryl turner \) subject predictions nntp posting host gibson cc umanitoba ca organization university manitoba , winnipeg , manitoba , canada lines 79 smythe division vancouver vs winnipeg jets 7 jets played canucks tough last three games everyone healthy jets i'm biased \) calgary vs los angeles flames 6 seen , kings looked flat lately ca n't see getting flames final jets 6 jets n't lost flames '93 , close series come well roberts recovered n't think 'll 100 , help , wo n't enough norris division chicago vs st louis minnesota chicago 6 blues , 7 stars detroit vs toronto wings 6 wings able shutdown gilmour andreychuk experienced potvin final hawks 7 brutal series probert chelios go belfour better , imho conference final hawks 6 hurts , hawks experienced , carry final prince wales conference adams division boston vs buffalo bruins 6 b 's check , juneau darn good , neely sabres rely much lafontaine mogilny quebec vs montreal montreal 7 classic battle , hurt nords , year final bruins 5 habs hurting series nords , boston able control scorers habs patrick division pittsburgh vs islanders devils pens 5 one word mario washington vs devils islanders caps 6 devils 7 think caps beat isles , devils tabaracci strong goal , plays like last year , could carry team n't matter , though final pens 5 two words stevens jagr cup final pens 6 three last words tocchet murphy barrasso thing n't like pens woofers going full force \( n't mean regular penguin fans 's like bunch around predictions true post like nuts jets winning , wo n't hear lose \) \( oh yeah next year 's cup prediction jets 7 nords \) daryl turner r h contact winnipeg jets internet umturne4 ccu umanitoba ca fidonet 1 348 701 1 348 4 \( please route 348 700 \) tkachuk zhamnov , sel nne , shoots , scores ! jets win cup ! jets win cup ! essensa vezina ! housley norris ! sel nne calder !
maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) subject plus minus stat organization dept computer science , laurentian university , sudbury , lines 29 1993apr15 sol uvic ca gballent hudson uvic ca \( greg ballentine \) writes selke candidate forwards main purpose shift prevent goals scored score lemieux gilmour play number one purpose score defence secondary especially considering line plays probably defensive one selke candidates gainey best defensive forward ever stand assessment good player belongs hall fame ever watch play \? never made technical error watched entire career never seen player , includes russell courtnall keon , screw many bob gainey never forget time denis potvin caught gainey head sold bill goods bob gainey gainey plugger press runs things say stars dynasties start hype pluggers grant fuhr , essa tikkannen , butch goring , bob nystrom , bob gainey , doug jarvis , derek sanderson , wayne cashman , bob baun , bob pulford , ralph backstrom , henri richard , dick duff cordially , always , rm roger maynard maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca
jbe5 jbe5 musicb mcgill ca subject wfan \( steve chief 48 hours \) lines 30 nntp posting host vm1 mcgill ca organization mcgill university greetings ! steve summers chief 48 hours last night sports unfortunately missed saw , please provide synopsis thanx czar mainframe computing jbe5 musicb mcgill ca mcgill university i'm sexy cobol habs n't look good ! let 's go expos ! peter peter eater , knew chick could n't meet saw brother one fine day , sucked cock 's gay ! andrew dice clay disclaimer needless say opinions expressed czar represent faculty , staff , students mcgill university
lli cs cmu edu \( lori iannamico \) subject pens box score 4 14 nntp posting host lli mach cs cmu edu organization school computer science , carnegie mellon lines 44 pens 6 nj devils 6 first period scoring 1 , pittsburgh , daniels \( needham , tippett \) 4 14 2 , nj devils , c lemieux \( semak , driver \) 10 19 3 , pittsburgh , stevens \( tocchet , murphy \) 12 4 , nj devils , zelepukin \( driver , niedermayer \) 17 26 penalties pgh , stevens \( roughing \) 1 30 njd , pellerin double minor \( cross checking \) 1 30 njd , zelepukin \( tripping \) 7 21 njd , stasny \( holding \) 11 15 pgh , taglianetti \( roughing \) 13 51 njd , lemieux \( roughing \) 13 51 pgh , jagr \( tripping \) 15 23 second period scoring 5 , pittsburgh , lemieux \( murphy , tocchet \) 1 42 6 , nj devils , semak \( lemieux , zelepukin \) 2 27 7 , pittsburgh , mceachern \( jagr , barrasso \) 4 24 8 , njd , stevens \( guerin , pellerin \) 5 45 9 , pittsburgh , lemieux \( unassisted \) 12 10 , nj devils , richer \( nicholls \) 15 53 11 , nj devils , lemieux \( zelepukin \) 17 40 penalties pgh , stevens \( roughing \) 3 06 njd , mckay \( roughing \) 3 06 pgh , mullen \( hooking \) 10 42 pgh , tocchet \( roughing \) 12 06 njd , stevens \( slashing \) 12 06 njd , lemieux \( unsportsmanlike conduct \) 12 40 pgh , u samuelsson \( cross checking \) 20 00 pgh , barrasso double minor \( spearing \) served mceachern , 20 00 njd , holik \( cross checking \) 20 00 njd , lemieux \( roughing \) 20 00 third period scoring 12 , pittsburgh , mullen \( jagr , lemieux \) 18 54 penalties njd , daneyko \( interference \) 3 37 pgh , stevens \( roughing \) 9 18 njd , holik \( roughing \) 9 18 pgh , match penalty game misconduct , 9 50 njd , zelepukin \( tripping \) 12 01 pgh , stevens \( roughing \) 18 41 njd , daneyko \( roughing \) 18 41 overtime scoring scoring penalties penalties shots goal pittsburgh 9 11 8 2 30 nj devils 12 15 9 3 39 goalies barrasso \( 39 shots , 33 saves 43 14 5 \) billington \( 30 shots , 24 saves \) ref linesmen , lori contact penguins lli cs cmu edu
andy bgsu edu \( jason \) subject giveaways organization home 1984 ncaa hockey champs lines 43 article access digex net , steveg cadkey com \( steve gallichio \) wrote john p curcio \( jpc philabs philips com \) responded drivel steveg cadkey com \( steve gallichio \) writes still surprised one tried giving away goodies end game two problems , course , would want make sure first people building would assured getting \( probably vouchers \) , building managers want avoid costs delaying people leave building , , instance , goodies given people exit went new jersey devils ice cream puck night \( tm \) last year see beloved bruins play pucks given end game could imagine would happened late third bruins winning figures , posted first article , found whalers going using coupons giveaway friday night believe big corporation \( probably bank \) flying disk night think could see potential danger , seen whole bunch giveaways land ice , never ceases amuse i'm thankful players one yet sponsor pipe arenas 's probably could n't find anyone maybe uss could pittsburgh penguins us steel steel rod night close enough \? , 'd probably bounce jay sg cincinnati cyclones game year ago local country station sponsored giveaway particularly bad call echl ref , time ice thought pathetic display fans , rightfully unhappy jason
ad215 freenet carleton ca \( rachel holme \) subject canucks clinch , bure score 20 playoff goals reply ad215 freenet carleton ca \( rachel holme \) organization national capital freenet lines 21 previous article , steveg cadkey com \( steve gallichio \) says ron apland \( apland mala bc ca \) writes quinn resign head coach \( secret \) hopefully bring someone looks game institutes team disciplined play keenan \? give wants , gm coach , quinn upstairs president impression rick ley line canucks job quinn step bench ley coached organization bring back harry ! \( neale \) least witty ad215 freenet carleton ca \( rachel holme \)
loh fraser sfu ca \( keith meng wei loh \) subject hockey hispanic community organization simon fraser university , burnaby , b c , canada lines 27 rickc wrigley corp sgi com \( richard casares \) writes article bu edu , icop csa bu edu \( antonio pera \) writes presence new team miami \( ca n't say south florida 's long \) makes think interesting question sell hispanic community hockey \? miami 60 70 hispanic community experience previous exposure hockey know teams ny la also big hispanic groups seem try woo group miami \? could get spanish language tv radio coverage \? 'll hard time selling sport community ca n't play account availability financial reasons hockey pretty much sport white well well , suffice say sport able make substantial investment equipment , etc 's something , think availability line skates road hockey could contribute rise awareness ice hockey \? would argue effect kids play ice hockey winter road hockey summer line skates
tvartiai vipunen hut fi \( tommi vartiainen \) subject suhonen go jokerit keywords suhonen nntp posting host vipunen hut fi organization helsinki university technology , finland lines 12 tvartiai vipunen hut fi tvartiai vipunen hut fi \( tommi vartiainen \) writes according inside information , alpo suhonen wo n't next jokerit 's pretty sure boris majorov continue , although owner team previously said chance coach tommi wrong information announced suhonen made deal jokerit tommi
dchhabra stpl ists ca \( deepak chhabra \) subject mogilny must benched nntp posting host stpl ists ca organization solar terresterial physics laboratory , ists lines 19 article wong sfu ca wong fraser sfu ca \( sam wong \) writes 4 5 weeks ago read toronto sun quote alex went something like yep , patty 's man 's responsible team 's success i'm nobody around assume sarcastic remark \? someone whose first language english , would interpret comment mean believes pat mvp team one normal players quite modest might say well , n't recall assuming anything , except perhaps columnist reported incident telling truth e sarcastic impression came \( steve simmons \? \) besides , knowledge alex pretty fair grasp english language recent comment detroit game would indicate remark think low dchhabra stpl ists ca
gballent hudson uvic ca \( greg ballentine \) subject plus minus stat nntp posting host hudson uvic ca reply gballent hudson uvic ca organization university victoria , victoria , bc , canada lines 38 article ramsey cs laurentian ca , maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) writes 1993apr15 sol uvic ca gballent hudson uvic ca \( greg ballentine \) writes gainey best defensive forward ever stand assessment good player belongs hall fame ever watch play \? never made technical error watched entire career never seen player , includes russell courtnall keon , screw many bob gainey never forget time denis potvin caught gainey head sold bill goods bob gainey gainey plugger press runs things say stars dynasties start hype pluggers grant fuhr , essa tikkannen , butch goring , bob nystrom , bob gainey , doug jarvis , derek sanderson , wayne cashman , bob baun , bob pulford , ralph backstrom , henri richard , dick duff players pretty good players depth dynasties win stanley cups tend good second line guys would first liners weaker clubs nhl important clubs probably , several stanley cup winning teams would cups depth provided players compare rick tocchet ron francis penguins good players lead lesser teams \( francis hartford , tocchet philly \) provide depth team currently best nhl defensive forward , none better bob gainey n't mean best player \( even best forward \) canadians time , excellent gainey could dominate games defence n't need get goals dominate shut opposition thus valuable never anyone better ever gregmeister
horse dead duc auburn edu \( john \) subject washington beat pitt article news 1993apr15 reply horse dead duc auburn edu organization sun microsystems , inc lines 38 nntp posting host dead duc auburn edu article acsu buffalo edu , ubvmsd cc buffalo edu \( ralph l \) writes article 1993apr14 mprgate mpr ca , galaxy mpr ca \( mathew \) writes penguins get patrick , win cup however , hardest task get division i'm sure washington definitly throw penguin plans i'm canucks fan \( think much chances year \) , seems like washington team stop penguins winning next stanley cup impression penguins caps number season mathew mpr teltech ltd vancouver , bc , canada course one asked , always interject opinions matters concern go islanders , playoffs come go jets '93 last year capitals pens number game 3 playoffs john
grogers slacvx slac stanford edu \( greg rogers \) subject hockey tv bay area , ! reply grogers slacvx slac stanford edu \( greg rogers \) organization stanford linear accelerator center lines 9 hi , n't get sport 's channel i'm desparate playoff action \( especially cannucks \) anyone know sports bar bay peninsula showing hockey games i'm looking something redwood city mountain view thanks lot , greg
gtd597a prism gatech edu \( hrivnak \) subject goalie mask poll article hydra organization georgia institute technology lines 31 update goalie mask poll first , since many people gave 3 best , decided give 3 pts favorite , 2 pts 2nd , 1 3rd e mailed response one , gave 3 pts please feel free send 2 favorites , sent one also , votes still welcome ! mask like , received votes players nhl please mention team play , though date results far player team pts votes 1 ed belfour chicago 8 4 andy moog boston 8 3 3 curtis joseph st louis 5 2 4 brian hayward san jose 4 2 5 grant fuhr buffalo 3 1 ron hextall quebec 3 1 7 clint malarchuk buffalo 2 1 manon rheaume atlanta \( ihl \) 2 1 9 john casey minnesota 1 1 rick wamsley toronto \( retired \) 1 1 thanks voted , keep 'em coming ! go skins ! next question emotional music quite go braves ! effect \? mike patton , faith go hornets ! go capitals ! mike friedman \( hrivnak fan ! \) internet gtd597a prism gatech edu
kkeller mail sas upenn edu \( keith keller \) subject washington beat pitt article netnews organization university pennsylvania , school arts sciences lines 32 nntp posting host mail sas upenn edu article taurus cs nps navy mil galvint cs nps navy mil \( thomas galvin \) writes article 93105 psuvm psu edu robbie po rap115 psuvm psu edu writes article 1993apr14 mprgate mpr ca , galaxy mpr ca \( mathew \) says chances year \) , seems like washington team stop penguins winning next stanley cup really \? think islanders devils would better chance penguins capitals , imo really \? makes think islanders better shot \? could n't even beat whalers two games ! yes , mentioned many times , islanders play talent level opponent since hartford pitiful , islanders played pitiful since pittsburgh great , isles likely play great likely due poor shooting greg yes , noticed islanders could n't hit broad side barn puck two feet front anyone shooting percentages \? n't know would help , since often miss net completely , might shed light subject , playoff pool running ! ! ! exact rules posted tomorrow , n't hesitate send picks ! ! ! keith keller let's go rangers ! ! ! ! ! let's go quakers ! ! ! ! ! kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs ! ! ! ! want opinion , 'll give
kkeller mail sas upenn edu \( keith keller \) subject goalie masks article netnews organization university pennsylvania , school arts sciences lines 10 nntp posting host mail sas upenn edu vote goes john vanbiesbrouck mask skyline new york city , sides bunch bees \( beezer \) looks really sharp keith keller let's go rangers ! ! ! ! ! let's go quakers ! ! ! ! ! kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs ! ! ! ! want opinion , 'll give
virginia edu \( christopher bass nystrom \) subject espn tonight article virginia 1993apr15 organization university virginia lines 11 swartzjh rosevc rose hulman edu writes anyone heard game espn showing tonight said show whatever game means playoff wise would assume would blues tampa game minnesota red wings game anyone heard sure \? \? \? jeff swartz 's going stars wings game
sclark epas utoronto ca \( susan clark \) subject picks first \? organization university toronto epas nntp posting host epas utoronto ca lines 7 according fan , ottawa daigle e n't mention , san jose goals sen , hunch ottawa would pick first susan
35002 2765 uwovax uwo ca subject stop predicting organization university western ont , london nntp posting host hydra uwo ca lines 17 article 1993apr16 ncsu edu , cdkaupan eos ncsu edu \( carl david kaupang \) writes really annoying see predictions net really cares think win \? please stop predictions , know caps going win cup , let go words , ottawa citizen , remember nitrous oxide leave dentist chair ! 8 \) go jets \( , playoffs , please , beg \) paul 35002 2765 uwovax uwo ca
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject stan fischler , 4 16 \( keenan stuff ! \) organization university toronto chemistry department lines 16 article 1993apr17 news columbia edu gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) writes oilers charge eat press room next year article one toronto papers months ago probably globe mail ethical journalist , even sports journalist accept free meals team case , one points article making , sports reporting mostly ethical standards gerald
apland mala bc ca \( ron apland \) subject plus minus stat organization malaspina college lines 24 article 1993apr16 alchemy chem utoronto ca , golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) writes meaningless compare one player 's plus minus statistic another players' context role playing time players involved 's meaningless compare goals , assists , pim stat think player asked take unique role team contexts never one player another playing team different teams yet awards given received based part meaningless stats operative words part stats must interpreted , tempered information one player compare jagr 's francis 's plus minus ridiculous absurd comparing jagr 's francis 's points ridiculous absurd ridiculous absurd comparing goals , assists , points , selanne , lindros , juneau , potvin , rookies league yet looking enjoy game ron
james j murawski jjm andrew cmu edu subject year 's vs next year 's playoffs organization administrative computing info services , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 37 nntp posting host po2 andrew cmu edu well , since someone probably wanted know , 's year 's playoff matchups left , matchups would next year new alignment playoff matchup rules 16 teams make playoffs next year 's rules , three first round matchups \( que mtl , chi stl , van win \) pit chi pit chi nj stl buf stl det que tor nyi tor mtl cal bos van van buf win nj win que cal bos det mtl la nyi la jim murawski sr software engineer \( 412 \) 268 office administrative computing \( 412 \) 268 fax information services jjm andrew cmu edu carnegie mellon university office ucc 155 forbes avenue pittsburgh , pa 15213 3890 le mieux ! le ! six ! claude non ! days clinton \( \) leaves office \( 1373 many \)
seth cbnewsh cb att com \( peter r clark jr \) subject flyers notes 4 17 organization keywords flyers whalers summary lines 200 flyers closed season last night 8th straight victory , 5 4 ot winner hartford whalers ot game winner came yushkevich , 5th season first game winner flyers never led point game whalers , loss marked nhl record 9th ot loss season roster move gord called play place ryan mcgill injuries ryan mcgill injured hand fight 4 15 scratched lines eklund lindros recchi beranek brind'amour dineen lomakin butsayev conroy faust acton brown galley bowen yushkevich hawgood carkner dominic roussel game summary n't get tv coverage game , since parts n't best radio coverage either 's box score followed things pick first period hartford , nylander 10 , 8 51 philadelphia , recchi 53 \( lindros , brind'amour \) , 19 59 8 \( pp \) penalties verbeek , har \( holding \) , 55 carkner , phi \( roughing \) , 13 53 houda , har \( interference \) 18 43 second period hartford , burt 6 \( cunneyworth , kron \) , 2 00 philadelphia , bowen 1 \( eklund , recchi \) , 7 09 hartford , nylander 11 \( zalapski , sanderson \) , 9 38 penalties galley , phi , major game misconduct \( spearing \) 58 verbeek , har major game misconduct \( spearing \) , 58 brown , phi \( tripping \) , 3 22 zalapski , har \( tripping \) , 15 51 brind'amour , phi \( slashing \) , 19 50 third period hartford , kron 14 \( sanderson , cassels \) , 1 24 \( pp \) philadelphia , beranek 15 \( lomakin , yushkevich \) , 3 11 philadelphia , faust 2 \( brind'amour , roussel \) , 3 38 penalties houda , har \( tripping \) , 4 20 hawgood , phi \( holding \) , 5 30 overtime philadelphia , yushkevich 5 \( faust \) , 1 15 penalties none power play philadelphia 1 4 , hartford 1 4 goalies philadelphia , roussel 14 11 5 \( 30 shots 26 saves \) hartford , lenarduzzi , 1 1 1 \( 38 33 \) first hartford goal , gord misplayed puck flyers blue line nylander stripped took recchi goal 2 1 lindros bowen goal puck threw net , got good ended behind goalie second nylander goal got three puck went frustrating part flyers defense take body , get one shot beat fine n't give another chance carkner , galley mcgill terrible , 'll bet money least one closest flyer play 's , radio got bad lucky know scored , much less heard , roussel strong game game , gene hart asked bobby taylor pick three stars season rather game garry galley 3 career high point total \( i'm surprised former goalie would n't look closer defensive play \) , tommy soderstrom 2 team record tying 5 shutouts 1 2 season , mark recchi 1 time high team single season scoring mark 's odd part could n't decide lindros recchi number 1 picks recchi 1 hard time choosing lindros , n't make lindros 2 \? \? \? \? \? wanna know three stars season \? well , since asked 1 eric lindros eric dominates game simply stepping onto ice difference team 's record without accident believe team could almost successful without recchi question team significantly better eric lindros , think wear 'c' jersey next season 2 tommy soderstrom 5 shutouts second league ed belfour , tommy n't chris chelios \( \) front also n't play complete season due heart problems \( edge , family history heart problems \) 's question mind tommy soderstrom teams goalie future , roussel complains number 2 look traded within 2 years 3 mark recchi , ca n't argue time team high single season scoring mark awful lot teams n't single player get many points plus , mark flyer play entire season tough choice honorable mentions rod brind'amour topped single season high point total set last year difference n't top line year n't get much playing time , n't get defensive attention got last year team either yushkevich teams consistent defenseman yes , made rookie mistakes , usually fast enough make feeling shot 'll score points next year without giving anything zone , suspect 'll teams top defenseman years come garry galley team 's point leader defensemen , things ca n't argue chronic fatigue syndrome , certainly deserves kudos missing one game , wishes doctors orders defensive play often offensive contribution little caution , little bit smarter end make much important part team next year brent fedyk leagues biggest improvement last years point total consistency became problem couple misc notes mostly mailing list members tom , member mailing list , would like exchange e mail addresses list members want keep touch summer 're interested , send mail att ! org ! flyers end season 1 game 500 5th place , best winning percentage since going 500 1988 89 14 20 3 within division \( 4th patrick \) , 23 14 5 home finished 17th overall , draft 10th next years entry draft \( quebec 1st , though \) scored many goals allowed , 319 8 straight wins since 13 row 1985 sending final stats soon get issue hockey news contains , since games go way getting hope 've enjoyed years hockey season much knowing future coming us made missing playoffs one time almost flyers team record watch eric lindros 41 goals , 34 assists , 75 points \( rookie records \) club record goals club record points eric lindros 40 1992 93 dave poulin 76 1983 84 brian propp 34 1979 80 brian propp 75 1979 80 ron flockhart 33 1981 82 eric lindros 75 1992 93 dave poulin 31 1983 84 ron flockhart 72 1981 82 bill barber 30 1972 73 pelle eklund 66 1985 86 mark recchi 53 goals , 70 assists , 123 points club record goals club record points reggie leach 61 1975 76 mark recchi 123 1992 93 tim kerr 58 1985 86 , 86 87 bobby clarke 119 1975 76 tim kerr 54 1983 84 , 84 85 bobby clarke 116 1974 75 mark recchi 53 1992 93 bill barber 112 1975 76 rick macliesh 50 1972 73 bobby clarke 104 1972 73 bill barber 50 1975 76 rick macliesh 100 1972 73 reggie leach 50 1979 80 80 games flyers career years player points best prior season mark recchi 123 113 \( 90 91 penguins \) rod brind'amour 86 77 \( 91 92 flyers \) garry galley 62 38 \( 84 85 kings \) brent fedyk 59 35 \( 90 91 red wings \) 's pete clark jr rsh flyers contact mailing list owner
ac dal ca subject predictions classic playoff year ! organization dalhousie university , halifax , nova scotia , canada lines 73 yet another prediction great playoffs ! \( may laugh convenience ! \) \) adams division \( hate ne \( name \) ! ! ! \) bos vs buf bos 5 \( b 's hot lately ! \) mon vs que mon 7 \( series watch first round ! \) bos vs mon mon 7 \( may bit biased feel canadiens \( smarten start playing played two months ago \( e bench savard ! ! ! \) patrick division pit vs njd pit 6 \( wont complete cake walk lumps \( cake batter ! \) vs nyi 6 \( exciting series imo \) pitt vs pit 4 \( washington tired nyi \) norris division chi vs stl chi 5 \( stl get lucky game \) tor vs det tor 7 \( , like mon vs que , another intense \( series watch ! \) chi vs tor tor 7 \( potvin settling nicely point \) smythe division van vs win van 5 \( teemu great , vancouver better team ! \) cal vs lak cal 6 \( gretzky great , calgary fire lately \) sorry pun um , ! \) van vs cal van 6 \( great series ! van proven \( lie get beat ! \) wales conference finals pittsburgh vs montreal montreal 6 \( montreal imho team \( chance pittsburgh \) campbell conference finals vancouver vs toronto toronto 6 \( potvin series mvp \) stanley cup finals toronto maple leafs vs montreal canadiens \( classic stanley cup final matchup ! ! \) also dream come true ! montreal wins stanley cup 7th game 1 0 double overtime roy potvin spectacular throughout series share series mvp \( possible \) vincent nets game winner brilliant pass brian bellows ! canadiens star \( \? \) denis savard watched buddies play owners box nursing splinter thumb left disabled list since first game playoffs \( awww \) yee haa ! ! wake \) well predictions hope dream come true stop laughing anytime \) paul die hard habs fan living 3 die hard leafs fans !
farenebt craft camp clarkson edu \( droopy \) subject ahl playoff results , 4 16 nntp posting host craft clarkson edu organization clarkson university x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 96 ahl calder cup playoff game \( \) played 4 16 providence 3 springfield 2 \( ot \) baltimore 4 binghamton 3 utica 3 rochester 2 \( ot \) cape breton 5 fredericton 2 game \( \) scheduled 4 17 capital district adirondack providence springfield baltimore binghamton utica rochester moncton vs st john 's halifax series \( plural status \? \) adirondack leads cdi , 1 0 springfield leads providence , 2 1 baltimore leads binghamton 1 0 utica leads rochester , 1 0 st john 's leads moncton , 1 0 cape breton tied w fredericton , 1 1 full 1993 calder cup playoff schedule results home team caps necesary first round springfield indians vs providence bruins gm 1 springfield 3 providence 2 gm 2 springfield 5 providence 4 gm 3 providence 3 springfield 2 gm 4 4 17 providence springfield gm 5 4 22 springfield providence gm 6 4 24 providence springfield gm 7 4 27 springfield providence cd islanders vs adirondack red wings gm 1 adirondack 6 cdi 2 gm 2 4 17 cdi adirondack gm 3 4 18 adirondack cdi gm 4 4 21 adirondack cdi gm 5 4 23 cdi adirondack gm 6 4 24 adirondack cdi gm 7 4 26 cdi adirondack baltimore skipjacks binghamton rangers gm 1 baltimore 4 binghamton 3 gm 2 4 17 baltimore binghamton gm 3 4 23 binghamton baltimore gm 4 4 24 binghamton baltimore gm 5 4 26 baltimore binghamton gm 6 4 28 binghmaton baltimore gm 7 4 30 baltimore binghamton utica devils vs rochester americans gm 1 utica 3 rochester 2 \( ot \) gm 2 4 17 utica rochester gm 3 4 20 rochester utica gm 4 4 22 rochester utica gm 5 4 24 utica rochester gm 6 4 26 rochester utica gm 7 4 28 utica rochester moncton hawks vs st john 's maple leafs gm 1 st john 's 4 moncton 2 gm 2 4 17 moncton vs st john 's halifax gm 3 4 21 st john 's moncton gm 4 4 23 st john 's moncton gm 5 4 26 moncton vs st john 's halifax gm 6 4 28 st john 's moncton gm 7 4 30 moncton vs st john 's halifax cape breton oilers vs fredericton canadiens gm 1 fredericton 4 cape breton 3 \( 2ot \) gm 2 cape breton 5 fredericton 2 gm 3 4 20 fredericton cape breton gm 4 4 22 fredericton cape breton gm 5 4 24 cape breton fredericton gm 6 4 26 fredericton cape breton gm 7 4 28 cape breton fredericton bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl ecac contact rec sport hockey go usa hockey ! adirondack red wings , calder cup champs '81 '86 '89 '92 clarkson hockey , ecac tournament champs '66 '91 '93 glens falls high hockey , ny division ii state champs '90 '91 ahl fans join ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu congrats boston bruins , 1992 93 adams division champions phoenix suns , 1992 93 pacific division champions
downec rpi edu \( christopher downey \) subject year 's vs next year 's playoffs nntp posting host rpi edu reply downec rpi edu organization rensselaer polytechnic institute , troy , ny lines 29 let 's fill winners well , since someone probably wanted know , 's year 's playoff matchups left , matchups would next year new alignment playoff matchup rules 16 teams make playoffs next year 's rules , three first round matchups \( que mtl , chi stl , van win \) pit chi pit chi pit chi nj stl buf stl nyi det det que tor nyi det nyi bos tor mtl cal bos det van van bos van buf win nj win bos van que cal bos det que cal mtl la nyi la thoughts , chris downec rpi edu
downec rpi edu \( christopher downey \) subject predictions classic playoff year ! nntp posting host rpi edu reply downec rpi edu organization rensselaer polytechnic institute , troy , ny lines 82 article 1993apr17 ac dal ca , ac dal ca writes yet another prediction great playoffs ! \( may laugh convenience ! \) \) adams division \( hate ne \( name \) ! ! ! \) bos vs buf bos 5 \( b 's hot lately ! \) mon vs que mon 7 \( series watch first round ! \) bos vs mon mon 7 \( may bit biased feel canadiens \( smarten start playing played two months ago \( e bench savard ! ! ! \) patrick division pit vs njd pit 6 \( wont complete cake walk lumps \( cake batter ! \) vs nyi 6 \( exciting series imo \) pitt vs pit 4 \( washington tired nyi \) norris division chi vs stl chi 5 \( stl get lucky game \) tor vs det tor 7 \( , like mon vs que , another intense \( series watch ! \) chi vs tor tor 7 \( potvin settling nicely point \) smythe division van vs win van 5 \( teemu great , vancouver better team ! \) cal vs lak cal 6 \( gretzky great , calgary fire lately \) sorry pun um , ! \) van vs cal van 6 \( great series ! van proven \( lie get beat ! \) wales conference finals pittsburgh vs montreal montreal 6 \( montreal imho team \( chance pittsburgh \) campbell conference finals vancouver vs toronto toronto 6 \( potvin series mvp \) stanley cup finals toronto maple leafs vs montreal canadiens \( classic stanley cup final matchup ! ! \) also dream come true ! montreal wins stanley cup 7th game 1 0 double overtime roy potvin spectacular throughout series share series mvp \( possible \) vincent nets game winner brilliant pass brian bellows ! canadiens star \( \? \) denis savard watched buddies play owners box nursing splinter thumb left disabled list since first game playoffs \( awww \) yee haa ! ! wake \) well predictions hope dream come true stop laughing anytime \) paul die hard habs fan living 3 die hard leafs fans ! one comment call classic playoff year yet n't include chicago detroit series c'mon , i'm boston fan even realize chicago detroit games exciting games watch chris downec rpi edu
kkeller mail sas upenn edu \( keith keller \) subject picks first \? organization university pennsylvania , school arts sciences lines 9 nntp posting host mail sas upenn edu ottawa picks first , fewer wins season , first tiebreaker keith keller let's go rangers ! ! ! ! ! let's go quakers ! ! ! ! ! kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs ! ! ! ! want opinion , 'll give
jason studsys mscs mu edu \( jason hanson \) subject nhl team milwaukee organization utexas mail news gateway lines 42 nntp posting host cs utexas edu newsgroups rec sport hockey subject nhl team milwaukee summary expires sender distribution organization marquette university department mscs keywords article 1993apr16 walter cray com cray com \( charles betz cf eng \) writes bradley center milwaukee home milwaukee admirals minor hockey team owner admirals \( sorry , ca n't remember name \) either owns least shelled majority funds build bradley center lloyd married allen bradley corp \( ab com \) family owns admirals donated bradley center new national ice center supposedly approached nhl expansion franchise , turned thought franchise fee 50 million high way heard see , lloyd \( referred bob \) bought bradley center get nhl come like said , n't know whether story true rumor , 's true , n't look nhl team milwaukee anytime soon admirals n't going forced building wo n't see nhl club minor league club building , especially since nba 's milwaukee bucks play well yeah , bucks , milwaukee wave \( soccer \) , admirals , marquette warriors , concerts bunch things jason hanson 915 w wisconsin ave 1010 \( 414 \) 288 marquette university milwaukee , wi ham radio ae jason studsys mscs mu edu n0ary nocal ca usa na
mep phoenix oulu fi \( marko poutiainen \) subject finland sweden vs nhl teams \( helsinki stockholm nh organization university oulu , finland x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 24 mention could cut stars nhl ! even prime good regular new york edmonton superstar right , although blamed lack effort behalf think ny management made mistake , remember edmonton called middle season win cup \? call \? yeah , 've tendency beat past almost brother anger sweden scored two final minute wc semifinals back 1986 \) three goals let five minutes go lake \? ugh k , bad luck penguins kind luck year playoffs , 'll never win cup still best team howl gargle howl gargle howl howl howl gargle howl gargle howl howl gargle gargle howl gargle gargle gargle howl marko poutiainen mep phoenix oulu fi
kkeller mail sas upenn edu \( keith keller \) subject playoff pool organization university pennsylvania , school arts sciences lines 30 nntp posting host mail sas upenn edu well , looked scoring plan , decided modify new , finalized scoring pick 1st round winner , way games 2 pick within one game 3 pick exact games 4 pick 2nd round winner , way games 4 pick within one game 5 pick exact games 7 pick conference champ , way games 7 pick within one game 10 pick exact games 13 pick stanley cup winner , way games 13 pick within one game 17 pick exact games 20 pick loser 7 , series goes 7 2 pick loser 7 , game 7 decided ot 4 final anyone needing copy entry sheet , email address keith keller let's go rangers ! ! ! ! ! let's go quakers ! ! ! ! ! kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs ! ! ! ! want opinion , 'll give
cobra ravel udel edu \( king cobra \) subject nhlpa poll \( partial stats results \) nntp posting host ravel udel edu organization university delaware lines 26 article andrew cmu edu young soo che andrew cmu edu writes people send polls take closer look njd , deep team , two capable goalies , excellent forwards defensemen shooter richer , around todd , chef stasny master thousand dishes , power play captain stevens take look numbers , play see yup agree ya think devils beat red wings easily think send votes try diffrent teams voting think islanders quebec much better expected cobra sex answer , sex question yes answer e mail cobra chopin udel edu
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject finland sweden vs nhl teams \( helsinki stockholm nh organization university toronto chemistry department lines 23 article 1993apr17 abo fi mlindroos finabo abo fi \( marcus lindroos inf \) writes failure , think , makela \( ari \) career islanders players play minors course like players , n't think names mention could cut stars nhl ! even prime good regular new york edmonton superstar right , although blamed lack effort behalf competent choice play bear hockey playing ability crucial oilers stanley cup victory 1990 , one without gretzky , made oiler power play lethargic year arrived slide overdrive oilers missed following year kurri , think oilers would make finals stayed around following season , would beaten pittsburgh healthy messier delayed pittsburgh 's dynasty season gerald
ecn purdue edu \( john \) subject flyers notes 4 17 keywords flyers whalers summary organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 17 could someone post flyers record without eric lindros lineup guy trying compare quebec flyers trade dallas minnesota trade nfl \( walker \) need stat back point eric one next great players thanks john
derek abcd houghton mi us \( derek \) subject 1 pick nhl draft \? distribution world organization amiga central dispatch lines 8 recently bought pack prospect hockey cards various players coming nhl got particular card russian named viktor kozlov says many scouts believe 1 pick 1993 another guy quoted saying 's good mario lemieux anyone know guy \? \? \? \? \? via dlg pro v0 995
j3david sms business uwo ca \( james david \) subject plus minus stat organization university western ontario nntp posting host sms business uwo ca lines 26 post newsgroups rec sport hockey j3david sms business uwo ca \( james david \) subject plus minus stat organization university western ontario date fri , 16 apr 1993 04 42 11 gmt nntp posting host sms business uwo ca lines 165 i'm defending bob gainey frankly , n't care much dismissal something less effective hockey player tiresome basis anything many win \? think four \( go ooops read selke forgive congenially , always , jd james david j3david student business uwo ca j3david sms business uwo ca \( james david \) western business school london , ontario
pitt edu \( michael g \) subject stop predicting organization university pittsburgh lines 36 article 1993apr16 rose com jack petrilli rose com \( jack petrilli \) writes april 16 , cdkaupan eos ncsu edu \( carl david kaupang \) wrote c \( really annoying see c \( predictions net really cares c \( think win \? please stop c \( predictions , know caps c \( going win cup , let go c \( haa ! ! ! 's one things find interesting newsgroup 's good way collective wisdom average hockey fans n't mean 're always right , however example , habs going come adams hardly anyone believes right jack 's hard humble 're perfect well , long 're unduly cocky , 's obvious pens cone patrick division caps , also win thier third stanley cup collective wisdom polite way putting , n't know 'd gracious , 's worth \( probably much \) think habs come adams new , long absent , mikey mike computer lab consultant sutherland hall computer lab grill university pittsburgh
icop csa bu edu \( antonio pera \) subject hockey hispanic market distribution na organization computer science department , boston university , boston , , usa lines 10 originator icop csa article saross01 starbase spd louisville edu , saross01 starbase spd louisville edu \( stacey ross \) writes c5i2s2 3bt odin corp sgi com rickc wrigley corp sgi com \( richard casares \) writes 'll hard time selling sport community ca n't play account availability financial reasons hockey pretty much sport white well crap \? i'm interested intelligent discussion ca n't answer question , say anyone else answer ques \?
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject hawks vs leafs organization university toronto chemistry department distribution na lines 15 article 93106 ryevm ryerson ca raj ryevm ryerson ca writes anyone else see game last night \? like playoff game ! ! lots hitting disappointed video goal judge replays , joe murphy 's goal n't counted ! n't go net ! ! according tsn broadcasters , video goal judge said saw water bottle top cage move assumed puck went ! terrible hope crap like n't occur playoffs ! game would ended 2 2 tie ! thought red light went thus , review , presumption would find conclusive evidence puck go net replays say , even rear , evidence n't conclusive puck opinion gerald
ndallen r node hub org \( nigel allen \) subject brown university ordered restore two women 's varsity teams organization r node public access unix 1 416 249 5366 lines 49 found press release trial lawyers public justice another system , thought would interest administration athletics department wants eliminate women 's ice hockey team women athletes , win sex discrimination ruling brown university ordered restore two women 's varsity teams national desk , sports writer contact , 401 421 , home 401 274 , ray , 401 831 8900 , trial lawyers public justice washington , april 16 u court appeals first circuit boston upheld u district court order requiring brown university immediately reinstate women 's volleyball teams full varsity status ruling cohen et al v brown university first appeals court decision nation applying title ix athletics trial lawyers public justice \( tlpj \) , national public interest law firm representing women athletes ruling makes clear said along school wants eliminate teams women fair share opportunities participate , men 's teams , said tlpj executive director arthur bryant , co counsel case class action , filed april , 1992 , charged brown violating title ix education amendments 1972 , federal law prohibits sex discrimination educational institutions receiving federal funds brown terminated two women 's teams university funded sports may 1991 , allowing continue compete varsity teams could raise funds uniforms , travel , coaches , expenses also denied admission preferences use recruiting new members major victory women cause equal rights , said tlpj lead counsel providence 's roney universities across america need programs quickly title ix law 's going enforced three similar title ix appeals await decision colorado state university , indiana university pennsylvania \( iup \) , university asking federal appeals courts overturn court orders requiring reinstate establish specific women 's varsity teams continuing cutting edge title ix activities , tlpj representing women athletes iup addition bryant , tlpj 's legal team included ray deluca mandell , deluca schwartz providence sandra duggan philadelphia national women 's law center , women 's sports foundation , national association girls women sports filed brief support tlpj 's appeal 30
maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) subject hawks vs leafs organization dept computer science , laurentian university , sudbury , distribution na lines 33 1993apr18 alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) writes article 93106 ryevm ryerson ca raj ryevm ryerson ca writes anyone else see game last night \? like playoff game ! ! lots hitting disappointed video goal judge replays , joe murphy 's goal n't counted ! n't go net ! ! according tsn broadcasters , video goal judge said saw water bottle top cage move assumed puck went ! terrible hope crap like n't occur playoffs ! game would ended 2 2 tie ! thought red light went thus , review , presumption would find conclusive evidence puck go net replays say , even rear , evidence n't conclusive puck opinion seemed pretty conclusive puck clearly hit came line announcers , admittedly homers , kept harping must different view upstairs obvious , , would thought , anyone saw replay , puck n't go referee originally goal video replay judges initiated contact referee claim goal fact scored , , unheard seeing stuff like happen gives bad feeling leaf chances year cordially , always , rm roger maynard maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca
jupiter sun csd unb ca \( rocket \) subject nhl final point standings organization university new brunswick distribution rec sport hockey lines 694 individual leaders total points \( final standings \) note games played points per games accurate ! ! player team gp g pts ppg prj pim lemieux pit 59 69 91 160 2 71 160 38 53 lafontaine buf 82 53 95 148 1 80 148 63 13 oates bos 83 45 97 142 1 71 142 32 12 yzerman det 83 58 79 137 1 65 137 44 33 turgeon nyi 80 58 74 132 1 65 132 26 2 selanne win 82 76 56 132 1 61 132 45 6 mogilny buf 75 76 51 127 1 69 127 40 9 gilmour tor 81 32 95 127 1 57 127 96 32 robitaille la 82 63 62 125 1 52 127 100 16 recchi phi 81 53 70 123 1 52 123 95 2 sundin que 79 47 67 114 1 44 114 96 19 stevens pit 71 55 57 112 1 58 112 169 16 bure van 82 60 50 110 1 34 110 67 37 tocchet pit 79 48 61 109 1 38 109 240 28 roenick chi 82 50 57 107 1 30 107 82 15 janney stl 82 24 82 106 1 29 106 12 1 sakic que 77 48 57 105 1 36 105 40 4 juneau bos 83 32 70 102 1 23 102 33 21 hull stl 78 54 47 101 1 29 101 41 21 andreychuk tor 81 55 45 100 1 23 100 56 4 fleury cal 82 34 66 100 1 22 100 88 15 francis pit 83 24 76 100 1 20 100 68 6 housley win 78 18 79 97 1 24 97 52 13 ciccarelli det 81 41 56 97 1 20 97 81 12 damphousse mon 82 39 58 97 1 18 97 96 5 hawerchuk buf 79 16 80 96 1 22 96 48 14 shanahan stl 69 51 43 94 1 36 94 168 9 muller mon 79 37 57 94 1 19 94 75 9 jagr pit 80 34 60 94 1 18 94 69 31 modano min 80 33 60 93 1 16 93 81 6 messier nyr 72 25 66 91 1 26 91 70 3 sanderson har 79 46 43 89 1 13 89 28 24 reichel cal 78 40 48 88 1 13 88 54 23 bellows mon 80 40 48 88 1 10 88 42 4 fedorov det 72 34 53 87 1 21 87 72 33 thomas nyi 76 37 50 87 1 14 87 109 0 coffey det 79 12 75 87 1 10 87 77 16 kurri la 81 27 60 87 1 07 88 38 20 bradley tb 78 42 44 86 1 10 86 90 22 brind'amour phi 78 37 49 86 1 10 86 87 9 ronning van 77 29 56 85 1 10 85 30 16 bondra 80 37 48 85 1 06 85 70 3 cassels har 81 21 64 85 1 05 85 57 15 murphy pit 82 22 62 84 1 02 84 73 42 bourque bos 78 19 63 82 1 05 82 40 38 granato la 79 37 45 82 1 04 83 165 3 verbeek har 81 39 43 82 1 01 82 180 11 ridley 81 26 56 82 1 01 82 38 4 duchesne que 81 20 62 82 1 01 82 57 15 c lemieux nj 75 30 51 81 1 08 81 149 0 suter cal 80 23 58 81 1 01 81 112 1 lebeau mon 69 31 49 80 1 16 80 20 23 roberts cal 57 38 41 79 1 39 79 172 31 semak nj 80 37 42 79 0 99 79 70 22 hatcher 80 34 45 79 0 99 79 110 12 hunter 81 20 59 79 0 98 79 194 2 courtnall min 82 36 43 79 0 96 79 49 2 brown stl 69 25 53 78 1 13 78 56 4 ricci que 76 27 51 78 1 03 78 121 9 kisio sj 77 26 52 78 1 01 78 90 15 craven van 76 25 52 77 1 01 77 30 0 g courtnall van 82 31 46 77 0 94 77 167 23 nolan que 72 36 40 76 1 06 76 185 6 king nyi 74 38 38 76 1 03 76 45 1 amonte nyr 80 33 43 76 0 95 76 47 0 gagner min 82 33 43 76 0 93 76 141 15 lindros phi 58 41 34 75 1 29 75 143 25 hogue nyi 67 33 42 75 1 12 75 106 6 nieuwendyk cal 77 38 37 75 0 97 75 52 8 pivonka 66 21 53 74 1 12 74 51 12 borschevsky tor 76 34 40 74 0 97 74 26 32 dahlen min 81 35 39 74 0 91 74 6 18 richer nj 76 38 35 73 0 96 73 44 0 emerson stl 80 22 51 73 0 91 73 60 1 nedved van 82 38 35 73 0 89 73 94 18 chelios chi 82 15 58 73 0 89 73 282 13 carson la 84 37 36 73 0 87 74 30 2 zhamnov win 66 25 47 72 1 09 72 58 5 kvartalnov bos 72 30 42 72 1 00 72 14 9 steen win 78 22 50 72 0 92 72 75 8 linden van 82 33 39 72 0 88 72 60 15 mullen pit 71 33 37 70 0 99 70 12 21 larmer chi 82 35 35 70 0 85 70 48 22 donnelly la 82 29 40 69 0 84 70 45 18 kovalenko que 80 27 41 68 0 85 68 57 10 gartner nyr 81 45 23 68 0 84 68 55 2 khristich 61 31 36 67 1 10 67 26 26 sheppard det 70 32 34 66 0 94 66 29 7 garpenlov sj 78 22 44 66 0 85 66 56 25 iafrate 81 25 41 66 0 81 66 169 15 gretzky la 43 16 49 65 1 51 67 6 6 zalapski har 80 14 51 65 0 81 65 86 32 graves nyr 81 36 29 65 0 80 65 148 4 anderson tor 74 21 43 64 0 86 64 117 19 zelepukin nj 76 23 41 64 0 84 64 66 16 maciver ott 78 17 46 63 0 81 63 80 42 dineen phi 80 35 28 63 0 79 63 199 11 chiasson det 78 12 50 62 0 79 62 151 15 ysebaert det 79 34 28 62 0 78 62 42 19 galley phi 80 13 49 62 0 78 62 98 14 mceachern pit 83 28 33 61 0 73 61 46 21 nicholls nj 67 13 47 60 0 90 60 80 13 keane mon 75 15 45 60 0 80 60 93 28 flatley nyi 77 13 47 60 0 78 60 61 3 young que 81 30 30 60 0 74 60 20 4 shannon win 82 20 40 60 0 73 60 91 4 fedyk phi 74 21 38 59 0 80 59 48 14 blake la 76 16 43 59 0 78 60 152 18 olausson win 66 16 41 57 0 86 57 22 5 makarov cal 70 18 39 57 0 81 57 40 0 smith chi 76 10 47 57 0 75 57 212 13 elynuik 77 22 35 57 0 74 57 66 2 stevens nj 79 12 45 57 0 72 57 116 16 adams van 51 25 31 56 1 10 56 14 33 tucker tb 76 17 39 56 0 74 56 69 10 macinnis cal 48 11 43 54 1 13 54 59 15 sutter chi 63 20 34 54 0 86 54 65 9 buf 80 9 45 54 0 68 54 87 14 nemchinov nyr 81 23 31 54 0 67 54 34 15 driver nj 81 14 40 54 0 67 54 64 9 ruuttu chi 82 17 37 54 0 66 54 134 14 yake har 63 22 31 53 0 84 53 44 5 turcotte nyr 68 25 28 53 0 78 53 40 2 sandstrom la 37 25 27 52 1 41 53 51 11 malakhov nyi 61 14 38 52 0 85 52 59 14 ward van 68 22 30 52 0 76 52 82 32 otto cal 74 19 33 52 0 70 52 150 2 tb 66 27 24 51 0 77 51 12 7 leach bos 78 26 25 51 0 65 51 126 6 poulin har 78 20 31 51 0 65 51 37 19 tkachuk win 81 28 23 51 0 63 51 199 14 savard mon 62 16 34 50 0 81 50 90 2 norton nyi 63 12 38 50 0 79 50 45 6 cullen tor 64 18 32 50 0 78 50 109 23 cote 74 21 29 50 0 68 50 34 28 eklund phi 52 11 38 49 0 94 49 16 8 olczyk nyr 68 21 28 49 0 72 49 52 1 semenov van 74 12 37 49 0 66 49 32 16 davydov win 77 28 21 49 0 64 49 64 2 miller stl 80 24 25 49 0 61 49 96 0 poulin bos 83 16 33 49 0 59 49 62 30 klima edm 66 32 16 48 0 73 48 98 15 dionne mon 73 20 28 48 0 66 48 55 6 baker ott 74 19 29 48 0 65 48 52 21 rucinsky que 76 18 30 48 0 63 48 51 14 weight edm 76 17 31 48 0 63 48 65 5 zhitnik la 76 12 36 48 0 63 49 78 2 maclean nj 78 24 24 48 0 62 48 100 7 corson edm 78 16 31 47 0 60 47 207 16 sweeney buf 79 21 26 47 0 59 47 118 4 simpson edm 60 24 22 46 0 77 46 36 14 hawgood phi 66 11 35 46 0 70 46 68 9 johansson 74 7 38 45 0 61 45 54 0 miller 81 18 27 45 0 56 45 32 1 manson edm 81 15 30 45 0 56 45 210 26 desjardins mon 81 13 32 45 0 56 45 98 19 schneider mon 58 13 31 44 0 76 44 89 9 goulet chi 63 23 21 44 0 70 44 41 10 leclair mon 70 19 25 44 0 63 44 33 11 drake det 71 18 26 44 0 62 44 91 14 lumme van 73 8 36 44 0 60 44 55 29 gaudreau sj 58 23 20 43 0 74 43 18 17 gill tor 68 11 32 43 0 63 43 64 4 turgeon ott 70 25 18 43 0 61 43 104 26 probert det 79 14 29 43 0 54 43 292 9 wood buf 80 18 25 43 0 54 43 77 7 ranheim cal 82 21 22 43 0 52 43 26 4 zamuner tb 82 15 28 43 0 52 43 72 25 tinordi min 69 15 27 42 0 61 42 157 1 paslawski cal 71 18 24 42 0 59 42 12 0 ruzicka bos 60 19 22 41 0 68 41 38 6 elik edm 60 14 27 41 0 68 41 56 4 kudelski ott 61 24 17 41 0 67 41 28 25 mcsorley la 79 15 26 41 0 52 42 393 0 shaw ott 79 7 34 41 0 52 41 34 47 lidstrom det 83 7 34 41 0 49 41 28 7 stastny nj 60 17 23 40 0 67 40 20 3 ellett tor 68 6 34 40 0 59 40 46 17 tikkanen nyr 78 16 24 40 0 51 40 94 22 niedermayer nj 78 11 29 40 0 51 40 47 8 racine det 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27 0 36 27 14 14 huddy la 80 2 25 27 0 34 27 62 20 rich sutter stl 82 13 14 27 0 33 27 100 6 van 40 4 22 26 0 65 26 109 16 svoboda buf 40 2 24 26 0 65 26 59 3 patrick nyr 60 5 21 26 0 43 26 61 1 jones 68 12 14 26 0 38 26 124 16 lamb ott 69 7 19 26 0 38 26 62 40 osborne tor 75 12 14 26 0 35 26 87 7 may buf 80 13 13 26 0 33 26 238 3 eagles win 82 8 18 26 0 32 26 131 1 brunet mon 45 10 15 25 0 56 25 19 13 green nyi 58 7 18 25 0 43 25 43 6 stern cal 69 10 15 25 0 36 25 207 2 van 71 6 19 25 0 35 25 36 9 haller mon 72 11 14 25 0 35 25 117 8 tippett pit 73 6 19 25 0 34 25 56 7 ott 79 15 10 25 0 32 25 318 32 tb 54 9 15 24 0 44 24 62 0 brady ott 55 7 17 24 0 44 24 57 25 ott 61 10 14 24 0 39 24 39 32 cavallini que 66 9 15 24 0 36 24 34 10 lachance nyi 74 7 17 24 0 32 24 67 2 shaw bos 76 10 14 24 0 32 24 108 9 berg tor 78 13 11 24 0 31 24 103 2 ozolinsh sj 37 7 16 23 0 62 23 40 9 min 45 4 19 23 0 51 23 38 6 la 53 10 13 23 0 43 23 27 3 todd edm 55 9 14 23 0 42 23 26 9 ashton cal 56 10 13 23 0 41 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2 14 16 0 20 16 201 35 andersson nyr 29 4 11 15 0 52 15 16 7 ott 42 9 6 15 0 36 15 32 15 taylor la 46 6 9 15 0 33 15 49 2 lowe nyr 47 3 12 15 0 32 15 58 1 domi win 59 5 10 15 0 25 15 340 1 det 60 1 14 15 0 25 15 71 21 det 65 3 12 15 0 23 15 67 15 zombo stl 69 0 15 15 0 22 15 78 4 butcher stl 82 5 10 15 0 18 15 209 0 zmolek sj 83 5 10 15 0 18 15 229 51 van 36 5 9 14 0 39 14 20 1 skrudland cal 38 7 7 14 0 37 14 65 4 bos 39 8 6 14 0 36 14 12 6 pearson que 41 13 1 14 0 34 14 95 3 c j young bos 43 7 7 14 0 33 14 32 6 smail ott 51 4 10 14 0 27 14 51 34 hardy la 53 1 13 14 0 26 14 89 1 broten nyr 58 5 9 14 0 24 14 48 6 barr nj 60 6 8 14 0 23 14 44 3 taglianetti pit 71 2 12 14 0 20 14 182 15 mon 74 5 9 14 0 19 14 191 7 tb 76 2 12 14 0 18 14 66 16 finn que 79 5 9 14 0 18 14 160 4 lefebvre tor 79 2 12 14 0 18 14 90 6 sullivan sj 81 6 8 14 0 17 14 30 42 nj 31 4 9 13 0 42 13 14 2 tb 42 2 11 13 0 31 13 69 2 lindsay que 44 4 9 13 0 30 13 16 0 ramsey pit 44 3 10 13 0 30 13 28 16 van 46 6 7 13 0 28 13 73 5 jelinek ott 49 7 6 13 0 27 13 52 21 needham pit 55 8 5 13 0 24 13 24 2 lowry stl 56 5 8 13 0 23 13 101 18 rychel la 68 6 7 13 0 19 13 293 14 mcgill phi 70 3 10 13 0 19 13 221 7 pit 78 4 9 13 0 17 13 10 8 richardson edm 80 3 10 13 0 16 13 140 18 rouse tor 80 3 10 13 0 16 13 128 8 daneyko nj 82 2 11 13 0 16 13 222 4 ogrodnick det 18 6 6 12 0 67 12 2 3 king nyr 24 7 5 12 0 50 12 16 4 joseph edm 31 2 10 12 0 39 12 46 6 petit cal 34 3 9 12 0 35 12 50 6 williams sj 39 1 11 12 0 31 12 49 25 b smith min 43 5 7 12 0 28 12 8 6 bozon stl 52 6 6 12 0 23 12 55 1 mon 53 5 7 12 0 23 12 20 6 dirk van 67 4 8 12 0 18 12 146 22 hunter van 72 5 7 12 0 17 12 182 5 ott 74 3 9 12 0 16 12 68 42 berube cal 75 4 8 12 0 16 12 209 6 wilson cal 22 4 7 11 0 50 11 8 10 edm 28 1 10 11 0 39 11 8 1 36 4 7 11 0 31 11 16 4 phi 39 4 7 11 0 28 11 14 3 murray chi 49 4 7 11 0 22 11 57 14 donnelly buf 58 3 8 11 0 19 11 219 6 dahl cal 59 2 9 11 0 19 11 52 9 kasper tb 66 4 7 11 0 17 11 20 16 sj 73 5 6 11 0 15 11 179 35 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0 00 0 0 0 pietrangelo har 30 0 0 0 0 00 0 4 0 irbe sj 35 0 0 0 0 00 0 10 0 terreri nj 47 0 0 0 0 00 0 6 0 fuhr buf 56 0 0 0 0 00 0 10 0 sidorkiewicz ott 63 0 0 0 0 00 0 8 0 maurice richard
organization university maine system always fanatical patrick ellis maine maine edu subject bruins vs canadiens 1993apr16 pasteur berkeley edu lines 18 un , better add least another plus pederson neely trade , bruins also received number 1 round draft pick , n't play great year wesley 's still decent defenseman bruins got pederson back eventually anyway pat ellis p go bruins go umaine black bears 42 1 2 number 1 hockey east regulars season champions hockey east tournament champions paul kariya , hobey baker award winner ncaa div 1 hockey tournament champions ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! n e !
organization university maine system always fanatical patrick ellis maine maine edu subject keenan signs , plus walsh \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? 1993apr16 pasteur berkeley edu 93108 maine maine edu lines 25 well read boston globe confirming \( denying \) anything , walsh may end rangers organizations \( assistant coach \? \) keenan talked walsh past \( came see kariya coaching worlds , funny guess got watch ferraro brothers well \) i'm sure walsh go , keenan getting 700 , 000 walsh even gets 100 , 000 's 30 pay raise walsh \( mention nice career move \) anyone new york hear anything \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? pat ellis p go bruins go umaine black bears 42 1 2 number 1 hockey east regulars season champions hockey east tournament champions paul kariya , hobey baker award winner ncaa div 1 hockey tournament champions ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! n e !
maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) subject div conf names organization dept computer science , laurentian university , sudbury , distribution na lines 89 1993apr18 hubcap clemson edu jwodzia uucp \( john wodziak \) writes sorry roger mr really means ie said hopes fans american southeast follow names divisions odds people displaced \( probably already fans \) order proverbial 's hell clear trying say asked somone , never heard hockey , la played smythe division think response would \? asked person la played west division \? naming divisions long dead entrepreneurs unnecessary obfuscation glad names changed another reason names patrick , smythe , norris , adams campbell names called builders game type thinking put stein hall fame absolute nonsense real builders game richard , , howe , conacher , orr , etc going name divisions people least name divisions people deserve yes people deserve hockey greats old division names took account patrick , norris , smythe prince alot origins league people came already established situation much easier element change hardly established situation existed prior smythe , et al stanley cup challenge trophy grabs whatever team could successfully mount challenge dear founders formalize challenge created closed league , professional system , interests making money er system contributed better hockey certainly debatable , however , stuck invention de academic point made , however , people played hockey people enjoyed watching hockey long smythe pals showed standout existing situation someone creates new situation want honor players like bobby orr i'm sure find reason name best offensive defenseman 's wrong best defenceman , period \? ever better defenceman \? ever better player \? think bruce contribution somehow significant bobby orr 's , interests education , n't take poll find many people know norris \? n't , \? ca n't reasons gave i'm boat jason grew current names learned 10 years old played division 10 year old american learn would hard occasional fan pick plays division \? n't feel make effort remember vancouver plays west division \? \( pacific , whatever intuitively understandable moniker chosen \) oh see point intention alert us erosion purity 'll bet like hockey 's , part , played whites european extraction probably case i'm sure said would like saying maple leafs fans biased , closed minded , ignorant , course neatly deleted jason 's rant game losing quoting context credibility mine position clearly progressive anything biased , closed minded , ig arrogant , grant arrogant , someone \) n't like mr basketball , b \) voices opinion c \) likes going mean right insult nice try john flame truly effective display least enough intelligence earn target 's respect cordially , always , rm roger maynard maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca
mmb lamar colostate edu \( michael burger \) subject team pool nntp posting host lamar acns colostate edu organization colorado state university , fort collins , co 80523 lines 40 thanks 41 people entered year 's team pool summary picked 1st round pittsburgh 41 , new jersey 0 chicago 40 , st louis 1 boston 40 , buffalo 1 vancouver 30 , winnipeg 11 calgary 27 , los angeles 14 detroit 26 , toronto 15 washington 24 , new york islanders 15 \( 2 people picked new jersey \) quebec 23 , montreal 18 2nd round pittsburgh 38 , washington 2 , new york islanders 1 boston 31 , quebec 6 , montreal 4 detroit 21 , chicago 15 , toronto 5 calgary 18 , vancouver 14 , los angeles 8 , winnipeg 1 3rd round pittsburgh 31 , boston 7 , quebec 2 , washington 1 detroit 18 , chicago 11 , toronto 5 , vancouver 3 , calgary 2 , los angeles 2 finals pittsburgh 26 , boston 5 , detroit 4 , toronto 2 , quebec 2 , los angeles 1 , chicago 1 good luck ! mike burger canada includes , quebec , ontario , mmb lamar colostate edu maritimes , , florida beginning computing ta stud four months year 500 students served royal canadian air farce university michigan 1990 colorado state university 199 \?
camelot bradley edu \( christopher taylor \) subject anyone official shorthanded goal totals \? nntp posting host camelot bradley edu organization bradley university distribution na lines 4 anyone shorthanded goal totals nhl players season \? 're trying finish stats need make complete
holland geop ubc ca \( stephen holland \) subject predictions classic playoff year ! organization geophysics astronomy , u b c vancouver , canada lines 20 distribution world reply holland geop ubc ca nntp posting host astro ubc ca article ac dal ca , ac dal ca \( \) writes stanley cup finals toronto maple leafs vs montreal canadiens \( classic stanley cup final matchup ! ! \) also dream come true ! montreal wins stanley cup 7th game 1 0 double overtime know finished laughing thought would great final two canadian teams lots tradition cherry nonsense behind nail finish course , would prefer vancouver montreal final vancouver scoring final goal pity neither happen steve holland
karim edvard ahmed ka0k andrew cmu edu subject truly sad day hockey organization senior , economics , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 17 nntp posting host po5 andrew cmu edu reply 1993apr16 news stolaf edu fine 26 year history came close tonight , minnesota north stars , norm 's stars \( whichever prefer \) lost red wings score 5 3 stars goals scored mike mcphee ulf dahlen , two including final one franchise history , less minute play yes , 's shame nhl lost fine team one best hockey markets country north stars fan , sad see tradition last 26 years get thrown oblivion hands truly crappy owner hopefully nhl install expansion franchise twin cities within next five years even case , lot lost north stars move kea
gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) subject possible canadian wc team \? nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) organization phds hall lines 17 nlu xenon stanford edu \( nelson lu \) writes centers mark messier , n rangers messier invited due nagging injuries press made issue , attempted link internal political woes , mike keenan repeated messier personally msg press conference makes sense messier would probably declined invitation made publicity gld je souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go ! ! ! gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
dmoney magnus acs ohio state edu \( dean r money \) subject difficult get penguin tickets \? nntp posting host bottom magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 6 subject line says terribly difficult get tickets penguins games , especially playoffs \? would easy find scalpers outside selling tickets \? dean money dmoney magnus acs ohio state edu
andrew idacom hp com \( andrew scott \) subject usenet hockey draft week 27 standings organization hewlett packard , idacom telecommunications division lines 276 well , i'm back tokyo , standings april 13 update andrew usenet hockey draft standings week 27 posn team pts cash last posn 1 dave wessels 1536 8 1 9 \( 1 \) 2 bob hill 1 24 0 \( 3 \) 3 gilles carmel 1492 9 1 0 \( 2 \) 4 seppo kemppainen 1430 0 47 2 \( 5 \) 5 awesome oilers 1412 4 68 6 \( 4 \) 6 hillside raiders 1495 2 7 0 \( 7 \) 7 mak knife paranjape 1424 7 31 0 \( 6 \) 8 jan stein 1412 2 35 3 \( 8 \) 9 years model 1479 3 17 6 \( 10 \) 10 rangers destiny 9 42 0 \( 9 \) tapio repo 1422 9 19 6 \( 11 \) 12 big fish 1453 9 22 0 \( 12 \) 13 9 10 1 \( 13 \) 14 thin ice 1440 9 32 3 \( 14 \) 15 go flames 1 40 3 \( 17 \) 16 littlest giants 1370 7 35 6 \( 16 \) 17 mopar muscle men 1400 4 3 7 \( 18 \) 18 lindros losers 2 1 7 \( 15 \) 19 die penguin 0 20 2 \( 19 \) 20 samuel lau \( calgary , alberta \) 3 4 9 \( 20 \) 21 boomer 's boys 1341 1371 6 0 2 \( 23 \) 22 general accounting office 1316 4 20 9 \( 21 \) 23 delaware 1341 5 1 3 \( 24 \) 24 menschen 8 31 6 \( 22 \) 25 's dec nh 1280 3 52 6 \( 25 \) 26 rocky mountain high 2 1 8 \( 26 \) 27 fife flyers 4 31 4 \( 27 \) 28 gerald olchowy 2 33 7 \( 28 \) 29 dave snell 1281 7 25 0 \( 59 \) 30 glacial 1333 7 18 0 \( 29 \) 31 1321 5 11 2 \( 30 \) 32 8 0 3 \( 31 \) 33 young 6 42 9 \( 32 \) 34 sam dogs 1262 3 11 6 \( 34 \) 35 neural netters 1251 2 11 3 \( 35 \) 36 1206 1 101 7 \( 36 \) 37 artic storm 1220 1287 7 39 3 \( 33 \) 38 soft swedes 1205 1281 5 46 9 \( 37 \) 39 jeff horvath 1239 6 5 6 \( 38 \) 40 milton keynes kings 1229 1262 5 2 8 \( 40 \) 41 hoboken 1223 0 8 7 \( 41 \) 1185 0 45 1 \( 45 \) 43 le de 9 25 3 \( 42 \) 44 yan man loke 5 0 7 \( 39 \) 45 legion hoth 1208 1251 1 15 8 \( 48 \) 46 1249 4 87 6 \( 44 \) 47 finnish force 1 22 5 \( 46 \) 48 ice legion 1193 1244 8 28 8 \( 43 \) 49 streaks 1161 8 54 8 \( 47 \) 50 brian bergman 1190 0 23 3 \( 55 \) 51 goaldingers 1190 1239 3 22 0 \( 49 \) 52 c 0 2 9 \( 52 \) 53 grant marven 1196 1231 2 2 9 \( 50 \) 54 bruins 1223 9 45 2 \( 54 \) 55 real bad toe jam 1150 1223 4 48 9 \( 62 \) 56 houdini 's magicians 1222 4 18 3 \( 61 \) 57 skriko wolves 1186 1221 5 5 4 \( 53 \) 58 rec sport hockey choices 1196 1221 1 1 3 \( 63 \) 59 buffalo soldiers 1142 1220 3 62 1 \( 65 \) 60 1140 9 54 2 \( 51 \) 61 lippe 2 13 9 \( 56 \) 62 randy coulman 1185 1214 8 5 2 \( 57 \) 63 lamp lighters 1180 1211 6 5 9 \( 58 \) 64 steven mark dream team 1174 1206 2 3 1 \( 60 \) 65 indianapolis 1160 1205 4 20 8 \( 66 \) 66 tom 1160 8 13 1 \( 68 \) 67 bloom county stars 1198 8 4 3 \( 67 \) 68 bruins 1174 1198 5 0 1 \( 72 \) 69 phil kev 's karma dudes 1198 0 0 8 \( 69 \) 70 smithw 1146 5 21 0 \( 73 \) 71 iowa 1149 1193 8 16 3 \( 64 \) 72 doug bowles 1146 1190 6 20 0 \( 71 \) 73 great 1108 3 54 4 \( 74 \) 74 non ! 1145 1186 4 16 4 \( 77 \) 75 shooting 1161 1183 3 0 1 \( 75 \) 76 frank worthless 1149 7 6 3 \( 76 \) 77 aik 1116 8 34 5 \( 70 \) 78 invisible inc 1177 4 1 1 \( 78 \) 79 brad gibson 1126 9 27 2 \( 79 \) 80 1114 1165 7 24 8 \( 88 \) 81 1165 2 164 1 \( 85 \) 82 plp fools 1135 1163 1 0 1 \( 81 \) 83 david wong 1082 1161 6 66 1 \( 84 \) 84 john 1102 1160 7 27 1 \( 82 \) 85 garryola 1121 4 9 7 \( 89 \) 86 gary bergman fan club 1128 1157 6 5 1 \( 93 \) 87 staffan axelsson 1120 1157 1 15 1 \( 83 \) 88 checkers 1110 2 16 3 \( 80 \) 89 's dastardly dozen 0 22 1 \( 90 \) 90 chocolate rockets 1121 1150 7 2 5 \( 86 \) 91 ken 1113 1147 9 5 0 \( 87 \) 92 fisher 1147 4 0 7 \( 94 \) 93 1122 1146 0 1 3 \( 95 \) 94 1067 1145 8 58 2 \( 91 \) 95 campi machine 1061 1145 2 65 3 \( 92 \) 96 bsc 1115 1142 4 7 1 \( 98 \) 97 1064 1141 5 76 1 \( 97 \) 98 arsenal maple leafs 1108 1138 4 3 8 \( 96 \) 99 ellis islanders 1096 1128 0 7 6 \( 100 \) 100 1122 4 6 1 \( 101 \) 101 zachmans wingers 1122 1 49 8 \( 103 \) 102 1091 1121 0 2 9 \( 102 \) 103 bjoern leaguen 1039 5 61 4 \( 112 \) 104 dirty white socks 1050 1116 5 43 4 \( 105 \) 105 1039 1116 1 72 6 \( 104 \) 106 neil younger 1036 1115 0 77 7 \( 114 \) 107 hurricane andrew 1082 1114 8 7 6 \( 106 \) 108 king 1089 1114 5 0 1 \( 110 \) 109 larry 1078 1114 3 11 8 \( 107 \) 110 het schot hard 1076 1113 6 18 1 \( 115 \) 111 1056 6 31 8 \( 108 \) 112 1046 1111 6 42 1 \( 99 \) bruce 's rented mules 1077 1111 6 11 9 \( 108 \) 114 teem kanada 1075 1110 6 16 0 \( 111 \) 115 frank 's follies 1063 5 24 2 \( 113 \) 116 oklahoma 1053 1103 6 28 3 \( 121 \) 117 1068 1103 4 12 6 \( 119 \) 118 pond slime 1102 3 0 7 \( 117 \) 119 dartmouth 1071 1101 4 7 1 \( 116 \) 120 mark sanders 1065 1099 2 11 1 \( 120 \) 121 blue talon 1062 1096 5 13 3 \( 126 \) 122 stanford ice hawks 1043 7 28 2 \( 118 \) 123 aye ! ! ! 1063 1089 6 3 9 \( 124 \) 124 bunnies 1021 1088 0 40 3 \( 125 \) 125 timo ojala 1059 7 0 3 \( 122 \) 126 1057 3 7 3 \( 128 \) 127 cluster buster 1048 1083 4 7 6 \( 136 \) 128 dirty rotten 1054 1082 7 1 2 \( 135 \) 129 fuzzfaces 1037 1 23 3 \( 127 \) 130 lost 1048 1080 5 6 7 \( 132 \) 131 nesbitt 1058 1078 6 1 1 \( 123 \) 132 gary bill pens dynasty 1035 1077 8 19 6 \( 144 \) 133 team 1035 1076 2 17 1 \( 129 \) 134 arctic circles 1074 1 37 6 \( 131 \) 135 seattle 1028 1074 0 22 9 \( 132 \) 136 late night david letterman 1049 1073 7 0 0 \( 130 \) 137 le groupe mi 1020 1073 2 30 2 \( 141 \) 138 go bruins 1046 7 6 2 \( 140 \) 139 scott glenn 1038 1069 7 10 2 \( 138 \) 140 flying 1035 1068 7 9 1 \( 136 \) 141 team gold 1029 1067 4 16 7 \( 142 \) 142 closet boy 's boys 995 1064 6 48 0 \( 143 \) 143 wild hearted sons 1036 1064 4 4 9 \( 153 \) 144 92 93 1023 1063 2 20 0 \( 134 \) 145 andy f wong 1019 1062 6 21 5 \( 147 \) 1040 1062 6 0 3 \( 152 \) 147 rocks rockers 1036 1062 4 5 1 \( 144 \) 148 book 'em 's 1062 1 10 5 \( 163 \) 149 hobbs 1020 1060 2 13 4 \( 139 \) 150 go habs go 1027 1058 1 8 0 \( 151 \) 151 goddess fermentation 1005 1057 8 30 2 \( 156 \) 152 tim rogers 1024 1056 8 8 1 \( 146 \) 153 convex stars 1026 1055 9 5 6 \( 160 \) 154 einstein 's rock band 1033 1055 7 0 0 \( 154 \) 155 princeton canucks 979 1055 5 124 2 \( 150 \) 156 tap 1028 1055 2 0 5 \( 155 \) 157 hubert 's hockey 1030 1053 9 0 6 \( 163 \) 981 1053 9 46 0 \( 148 \) 159 team 977 1052 0 174 8 \( 162 \) 160 bob 's blues 980 1050 9 46 8 \( 149 \) 161 1021 1046 6 3 6 \( 159 \) 162 hunters collectors 982 1045 9 42 4 \( 157 \) les nordiques 974 1045 9 60 4 \( 161 \) 164 satan 's choice 1045 3 14 5 \( 173 \) 165 dr joel 1020 1043 9 3 7 \( 158 \) 166 1017 1040 9 0 4 \( 166 \) 167 pierre 1017 1039 9 2 6 \( 175 \) 168 slap shot marco 966 1037 8 51 8 \( 168 \) 169 san jose mahi mahi 989 1037 6 31 8 \( 178 \) 170 leafs rule ! ! ! ! 990 1037 3 25 8 \( 174 \) 171 jeff 963 1036 5 48 8 \( 167 \) 172 stimpy zeta 996 1035 2 21 0 \( 178 \) 173 958 1034 6 63 7 \( 170 \) 174 east city jokers 956 1033 7 69 1 \( 171 \) 175 daryl turner 1008 1033 1 2 4 \( 169 \) 176 riding pine 988 1031 8 20 7 \( 165 \) 177 flowers 957 1030 4 113 6 \( 172 \) 178 darse billings 975 1029 3 34 7 \( 185 \) 179 's 984 1027 9 24 0 \( 186 \) 180 inc 982 1027 2 27 3 \( 182 \) 181 spinal tap 963 1026 6 41 4 \( 177 \) 182 949 1025 9 179 0 \( 187 \) 183 enforcers 980 1023 9 28 1 \( 189 \) 184 jeff 949 1020 7 46 7 \( 180 \) big bad bruins 981 1020 7 18 5 \( 183 \) 186 mike mac cormack sydney ns 944 1020 6 107 2 \( 184 \) 187 973 1019 7 23 4 \( 181 \) 188 996 1017 2 2 7 \( 176 \) 189 lehigh 984 1015 4 8 9 \( 190 \) 190 republican dirty 930 1010 4 66 0 \( 188 \) 191 henry 's bar b q 990 1007 7 0 7 \( 197 \) 192 dr 968 1007 3 17 1 \( 192 \) 193 bunch misfits 957 1006 9 23 8 \( 193 \) 194 team 955 1005 5 30 0 \( 198 \) 195 yellow plague 969 1003 4 14 2 \( 191 \) 196 ninja turtles 982 1003 0 1 3 \( 194 \) 197 team 930 999 1 46 9 \( 199 \) 198 962 998 6 18 3 \( 201 \) 199 dragons 950 998 4 28 3 \( 209 \) 200 961 998 2 18 5 \( 207 \) 201 great expectations 972 998 0 2 3 \( 195 \) 202 cobra 's killers 942 996 4 31 7 \( 205 \) 203 cherry bombers 971 995 6 1 2 \( 196 \) 204 jayson 's pucks 943 989 9 26 9 \( 204 \) 205 killer apes 947 989 7 24 3 \( 208 \) 206 929 989 1 37 6 \( 202 \) 207 umpire 4 life 950 987 8 11 1 \( 200 \) 208 roger smith 927 987 0 39 6 \( 210 \) 209 firebirds 960 983 8 3 9 \( 203 \) 210 1st weeks hurt ! 982 9 55 9 \( 211 \) 211 wholesale 958 982 0 1 7 \( 213 \) 212 outlaws 903 975 6 164 9 \( 206 \) 213 200 club 944 969 4 6 8 \( 219 \) 214 thundering herd 887 966 7 163 6 \( 212 \) 215 believe dont 926 966 6 21 1 \( 214 \) 216 creeping death 924 965 7 21 3 \( 217 \) 217 knee injuries 932 965 6 10 4 \( 218 \) 218 crazy euros 927 965 3 17 9 \( 220 \) 219 frack attack 918 965 0 27 3 \( 221 \) todd 's turkeys 942 965 0 1 9 \( 222 \) 221 ryan 's renegades 893 961 7 50 9 \( 223 \) 222 fred 889 961 5 93 0 \( 215 \) 223 400 hurricane 909 960 4 32 1 \( 216 \) 224 pig vomit 958 3 1 3 \( 225 \) 225 ice 882 955 4 105 4 \( 226 \) 226 fighting 882 953 7 141 6 \( 227 \) 227 cdn stuck alabama 925 951 6 10 3 \( 228 \) 228 dayton bomber 932 951 5 0 0 \( 236 \) 229 crew 892 948 2 38 3 \( 224 \) 230 chris death 872 945 0 83 6 \( 232 \) 231 902 941 9 18 7 \( 230 \) 232 banko 's beer rangers 913 940 4 4 2 \( 233 \) zipper heads 892 940 4 33 9 \( 237 \) 234 ny flames 907 938 8 7 8 \( 234 \) 235 ship 's way 913 938 7 8 7 \( 229 \) 236 ii 861 937 6 201 6 \( 235 \) 237 oz 878 934 1 35 0 \( 231 \) 238 joliet inmates 872 933 5 45 8 \( 239 \) 239 ninja bunnies 858 925 9 44 9 \( 238 \) 240 great scott 853 924 6 73 3 \( 242 \) 241 white wolves 861 919 7 36 9 \( 240 \) 242 ice holes 890 7 2 7 \( 246 \) 243 sabres 886 910 8 4 7 \( 244 \) 244 daves team 858 910 7 32 0 \( 241 \) 245 south carolina tiger paws 835 909 0 78 4 \( 243 \) 246 florida tech team 844 908 9 49 3 \( 245 \) 247 blue chips 874 902 5 10 4 \( 247 \) 248 xtc 874 900 0 8 2 \( 248 \) 249 roadrunners 861 899 7 18 5 \( 249 \) 250 kings 851 897 8 27 6 \( 250 \) 251 new jersey rob 876 894 2 0 7 \( 253 \) 252 856 893 3 15 9 \( 251 \) 253 pat phillips 859 887 6 10 1 \( 252 \) 254 stewart clamen 851 869 6 1 6 \( 254 \) 255 demon spawn 820 866 1 25 0 \( 255 \) 256 sunnyvale storm 804 818 4 0 2 \( 256 \) 257 allez les blues 738 809 1 476 9 \( 257 \) 258 sale hockey club 749 789 4 23 0 \( 258 \) 259 picks 721 788 0 168 5 \( 259 \) 260 rinaco 709 781 8 114 0 \( 260 \) 261 revenge 691 713 3 4 0 \( 261 \) 262 riga 595 663 9 571 6 \( 262 \) andrew scott andrew idacom hp com hp idacom telecom operation \( 403 \) 462 0666 ext 253 roman era , 28 considered old
andrew idacom hp com \( andrew scott \) subject usenet hockey draft week 27 price list organization hewlett packard , idacom telecommunications division lines 264 price list week april 13 april 19 andrew buy sell pts team player 158 9 143 0 157 pit mario lemieux 148 5 133 7 145 buf pat lafontaine 142 7 128 4 141 bos adam oates 137 6 123 8 136 det steve yzerman 132 1 118 9 129 wpg teemu selanne 131 7 118 5 127 nyi pierre turgeon 130 1 117 1 127 tor doug gilmour 126 0 113 4 123 buf alexander mogilny 123 4 111 1 119 phi mark recchi 121 9 109 7 119 la luc robitaille 113 3 102 0 112 que mats sundin 111 3 100 2 110 pit kevin stevens 110 6 99 5 108 van pavel bure 108 6 97 7 106 stl craig janney 108 3 97 5 107 pit rick tocchet 107 6 96 8 105 chi jeremy roenick 105 3 94 8 104 que joe sakic 103 5 93 2 101 stl brett hull 102 4 92 2 100 cgy theoren fleury 101 2 91 1 100 pit ron francis 100 4 90 4 98 tor dave andreychuk 100 2 90 2 99 bos joe juneau 98 3 88 5 96 wpg phil housley 98 3 88 5 96 mtl vincent damphousse 96 3 86 7 94 mtl kirk muller 96 1 86 5 95 det dino ciccarelli 95 3 85 8 93 buf dale hawerchuk 95 3 85 8 93 min mike modano 94 4 85 0 91 nyr mark messier 93 2 83 9 91 stl brendan shanahan 93 1 83 8 92 pit jaromir jagr 88 1 79 3 86 mtl brian bellows 88 1 79 3 86 la jari kurri 88 0 79 2 87 det sergei fedorov 87 1 78 4 85 cgy robert reichel 87 0 78 3 86 det paul coffey 86 1 77 5 83 wsh peter bondra 86 1 77 5 83 hfd geoff sanderson 86 0 77 4 84 tb brian bradley 85 0 76 5 82 nyi steve thomas 84 0 75 6 83 pit larry murphy 84 0 75 6 81 phi rod brind'amour 83 0 74 7 82 bos ray bourque 83 0 74 7 82 que steve duchesne 83 0 74 7 80 hfd andrew cassels 82 0 73 8 80 la tony granato 81 9 73 7 79 wsh dale hunter 81 9 73 7 79 wsh mike ridley 80 9 72 8 78 hfd pat verbeek 80 9 72 8 79 mtl stephan lebeau 80 9 72 8 79 cgy gary suter 78 9 71 0 77 van cliff ronning 78 9 71 0 77 nj claude lemieux 78 9 71 0 78 que mike ricci 77 9 70 1 76 van murray craven 77 9 70 1 76 stl jeff brown 77 8 70 0 75 wsh kevin hatcher 77 8 70 0 75 nyr tony amonte 76 9 69 2 76 sj kelly kisio 76 8 69 1 75 nj alexander semak 76 8 69 1 75 min russ courtnall 75 8 68 2 74 min dave gagner 75 8 68 2 74 tor nikolai borschevsky 75 7 68 1 73 phi eric lindros 74 8 67 3 73 la jimmy carson 73 8 66 4 72 cgy joe nieuwendyk 73 8 66 4 72 van geoff courtnall 73 8 66 4 72 min ulf dahlen 73 6 66 2 71 nyi derek king 73 6 66 2 71 wsh michal pivonka 72 9 65 6 72 que owen nolan 72 9 65 6 72 bos dmitri kvartalnov 72 7 65 4 71 stl nelson emerson 72 7 65 4 71 chi chris chelios 72 6 65 3 70 nyi benoit hogue 71 7 64 5 70 nj stephane richer 71 7 64 5 70 wpg thomas steen 71 7 64 5 70 wpg alexei zhamnov 71 7 64 5 70 chi steve larmer 69 8 62 8 69 pit joe mullen 69 5 62 6 67 nyr mike gartner 68 6 61 7 67 van petr nedved 68 6 61 7 67 van trevor linden 68 6 61 7 67 la mike donnelly 68 4 61 6 66 wsh dmitri khristich 68 4 61 6 66 wsh al iafrate 66 8 60 1 66 det ray sheppard 66 8 60 1 66 que andrei kovalenko 66 4 59 8 64 hfd zalapski 66 4 59 8 64 nyr adam graves 65 8 59 2 65 sj johan garpenlov 64 5 58 1 63 tor glenn anderson 63 5 57 2 62 la wayne gretzky 63 5 57 2 62 ott norm maciver 62 2 56 0 60 phi garry galley 61 7 55 5 61 det steve chiasson 61 7 55 5 61 det paul ysebaert 61 5 55 4 60 nj valeri zelepukin 61 5 55 4 60 mtl mike keane 61 2 55 1 59 phi brent fedyk 60 7 54 6 60 pit shawn mceachern 60 4 54 4 59 la rob blake 60 1 54 1 58 nyi pat flatley 59 7 53 7 59 que scott young 59 4 53 5 58 wpg darrin shannon 59 1 53 2 57 phi kevin dineen 58 4 52 6 57 nj bernie nicholls 58 4 52 6 57 cgy sergei makarov 58 4 52 6 57 chi steve smith 58 1 52 3 56 wsh pat elynuik 57 4 51 7 56 van greg adams 57 4 51 7 56 nj scott stevens 57 4 51 7 56 tb john tucker 56 3 50 7 55 wpg fredrik olausson 56 0 50 4 54 nyr sergei nemchinov 55 0 49 5 53 nyr darren turcotte 55 0 48 9 53 cgy al macinnis 55 0 48 9 53 chi christian ruuttu 55 0 48 0 52 chi brent sutter 55 0 47 6 51 hfd terry yake 55 0 47 0 51 van dixon ward 55 0 47 0 51 wpg keith tkachuk 55 0 46 4 51 bos stephen leach 55 0 46 1 50 tor john cullen 55 0 46 1 50 mtl denis savard 55 0 45 7 49 nyr ed olczyk 55 0 45 2 49 van semenov 55 0 44 8 48 wsh sylvain cote 55 0 44 8 48 nyi vladimir malakhov 55 0 44 8 48 nyi jeff norton 55 0 44 8 48 hfd patrick poulin 55 0 44 6 49 bos dave poulin 55 0 44 3 48 la tomas sandstrom 55 0 44 3 48 edm petr klima 55 0 44 3 48 nj john maclean 55 0 44 3 48 edm doug weight 55 0 43 3 47 mtl gilbert dionne 55 0 43 3 47 la alexei zhitnik 55 0 43 3 47 edm shayne corson 55 0 42 8 47 que martin rucinsky 55 0 42 4 46 wpg davydov 55 0 42 4 46 stl kevin miller 55 0 42 4 46 edm craig simpson 55 0 42 0 45 wsh kelly miller 55 0 42 0 45 phi pelle eklund 55 0 40 6 44 chi michel goulet 55 0 40 6 44 edm dave manson 55 0 39 6 43 ott sylvain turgeon 55 0 38 7 42 cgy paul ranheim 55 0 38 7 42 mtl schneider 55 0 38 7 42 min mark tinordi 55 0 38 3 42 det bob probert 55 0 37 8 41 edm todd elik 55 0 37 4 40 nyr esa tikkanen 55 0 37 4 41 bos vladimir ruzicka 55 0 36 9 40 ott bob kudelski 55 0 36 9 40 nj peter stastny 55 0 36 9 40 tor dave ellett 55 0 36 9 40 ott brad shaw 55 0 36 5 40 det lidstrom 55 0 36 0 39 nj bobby holik 55 0 36 0 39 tor wendel clark 55 0 35 5 38 nyr alexei kovalev 55 0 35 0 38 buf yuri khmylev 55 0 35 0 38 min mike mcphee 55 0 34 1 37 tor rob pearson 55 0 34 1 37 van sergio momesso 55 0 33 6 36 nyr brian leetch 55 0 33 2 36 chi dirk graham 55 0 33 2 36 tb adam creighton 55 0 32 8 36 que valery kamensky 55 0 32 3 35 edm ciger 55 0 32 3 35 la corey millen 55 0 31 9 35 bos ted donato 55 0 31 3 34 tor peter zezel 55 0 30 4 33 min neal broten 55 0 29 5 32 mtl gary leeman 55 0 29 5 32 edm scott mellanby 55 0 29 5 32 buf wayne presley 55 0 29 2 32 det keith primeau 55 0 28 9 31 nyi brian mullen 55 0 28 9 31 phi josef beranek 55 0 28 6 31 chi stephane matteau 55 0 28 3 31 bos steve heinze 55 0 28 0 30 phi dmitri yushkevich 55 0 28 0 30 hfd mikael nylander 55 0 27 6 30 buf richard smehlik 55 0 27 6 30 tor dmitri mironov 55 0 25 8 28 chi brian noonan 55 0 25 5 28 sj pat falloon 55 0 24 9 27 stl igor korolev 55 0 24 3 26 wsh bob carpenter 55 0 24 3 26 nyr james patrick 55 0 23 9 26 buf petr svoboda 55 0 23 0 25 ott mark lamb 55 0 22 4 24 nyi scott lachance 55 0 22 1 24 mtl benoit brunet 55 0 22 1 24 tb mikael andersson 55 0 21 2 23 edm martin gelinas 55 0 21 2 23 wpg sergei bautin 55 0 21 2 23 tor bill berg 55 0 21 2 23 edm kevin todd 55 0 19 6 21 nyi david 55 0 19 6 21 nyi ray ferraro 55 0 19 4 21 min brent gilchrist 55 0 18 6 20 hfd yvon corriveau 55 0 18 6 20 nyr phil bourque 55 0 18 6 20 nyi darius kasparaitis 55 0 18 2 20 det jim hiller 55 0 17 7 19 phi andrei lomakin 55 0 17 6 19 buf donald audette 55 0 16 6 18 tb roman hamrlik 55 0 15 5 17 bos cam neely 55 0 15 5 17 sj mark pederson 55 0 14 6 16 pit martin straka 55 0 13 9 15 chi joe murphy 55 0 12 2 13 nyr peter andersson 55 0 12 0 13 ott tomas jelinek 55 0 12 0 13 nj 55 0 10 2 11 tb steve kasper 55 0 10 2 11 min bobby smith 55 0 9 1 10 sj ray whitney 55 0 8 4 9 hfd robert petrovicky 55 0 8 3 9 buf viktor 55 0 7 4 8 tor joe sacco 55 0 7 3 8 que mikhail 55 0 7 3 8 sj peter ahola 55 0 6 5 7 chi rob brown 55 0 6 4 7 bos glen murray 55 0 5 6 6 hfd tim kerr 55 0 5 5 6 min brian propp 55 0 4 7 5 wsh reggie savage 55 0 4 6 5 stl 55 0 4 6 5 la robert lang 55 0 4 6 5 edm shaun van allen 55 0 3 7 4 min dan quinn 55 0 3 6 4 det viacheslav kozlov 55 0 3 6 4 bos jozef 55 0 3 6 4 pit bryan fogarty 55 0 2 8 3 mtl olav 55 0 2 8 3 tb stan 55 0 1 9 2 wsh jason woolley 55 0 1 8 2 nj claude 55 0 0 0 0 mtl patrick 55 0 0 0 0 ott alexei yashin 55 0 0 0 0 wsh randy burridge 55 0 0 0 0 edm dean 55 0 0 0 0 cgy cory stillman 55 0 0 0 0 tb brent gretzky 55 0 0 0 0 buf jason dawe 55 0 0 0 0 wsh brian sakic 55 0 0 0 0 van igor 55 0 0 0 0 chi sergei 55 0 0 0 0 que peter forsberg andrew scott andrew idacom hp com hp idacom telecom operation \( 403 \) 462 0666 ext 253 roman era , 28 considered old
gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) subject aargh ! great hockey coverage ! ! \( devils \) nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) organization phds hall lines 16 locked away , waiting tape delay start 's nice devils starting playoffs network television bad playoff game wabc early season yankees baseball game ! 's 12 2 win texas rangers 're delaying tape delay another half hour ballgame highlights ! ! ! gld je souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go ! ! ! gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
c5ff jupiter sun csd unb ca \( cook charlie \) subject nhl summary parse results games played fri , april 16 , 1993 organization university new brunswick lines 123 philadelphia 1 1 2 1 5 hartford 1 2 1 0 4 first period 1 , hartford , nylander 10 \( unassisted \) 8 51 2 , philadelphia , recchi 53 \( lindros , brind'amour \) pp , 19 59 second period 3 , hartford , burt 6 \( cunneyworth , kron \) 2 00 4 , philadelphia , bowen 1 \( eklund , recchi \) 7 09 5 , hartford , nylander 11 \( zalapski , sanderson \) 9 38 third period 6 , hartford , kron 14 \( sanderson , cassels \) pp , 1 24 7 , philadelphia , beranek 15 \( lomakin , yushkevich \) 3 11 8 , philadelphia , faust 2 \( brind'amour , roussel \) 3 38 overtime 9 , philadelphia , yushkevich 5 \( faust \) 1 15 philadelphia 5 power play 4 1 scorer g pts beranek 1 0 1 bowen 1 0 1 brind'amour 0 2 2 eklund 0 1 1 faust 1 1 2 lindros 0 1 1 lomakin 0 1 1 recchi 1 1 2 roussel 0 1 1 yushkevich 1 1 2 hartford 4 power play 4 1 scorer g pts burt 1 0 1 cassels 0 1 1 cunneyworth 0 1 1 kron 1 1 2 nylander 2 0 2 sanderson 0 2 2 zalapski 0 1 1 new jersey 0 3 1 4 ny islanders 3 3 2 8 first period 1 , ny islanders , turgeon 56 \( unassisted \) 4 11 2 , ny islanders , thomas 36 \( malakhov , king \) pp , 5 58 3 , ny islanders , ferraro 14 \( dalgarno , malakhov \) 18 16 second period 4 , new jersey , niedermayer 11 \( richer , nicholls \) 0 41 5 , ny islanders , mullen 18 \( vaske , dalgarno \) 1 15 6 , ny islanders , thomas 37 \( hogue , norton \) 2 12 7 , new jersey , zelepukin 23 \( unassisted \) 17 11 8 , new jersey , richer 38 \( nicholls , daneyko \) 17 23 9 , ny islanders , hogue 33 \( flatley , ferraro \) 18 42 third period 10 , ny islanders , turgeon 57 \( unassisted \) 3 45 11 , new jersey , semak 37 \( lemieux , driver \) 9 06 12 , ny islanders , turgeon 58 \( king , pilon \) 10 21 ny islanders 8 power play 4 1 scorer g pts dalgarno 0 2 2 ferraro 1 1 2 flatley 0 1 1 hogue 1 1 2 king 0 2 2 malakhov 0 2 2 mullen 1 0 1 norton 0 1 1 pilon 0 1 1 thomas 2 0 2 turgeon 3 0 3 vaske 0 1 1 new jersey 4 power play 2 0 scorer g pts daneyko 0 1 1 driver 0 1 1 lemieux 0 1 1 nicholls 0 2 2 niedermayer 1 0 1 richer 1 1 2 semak 1 0 1 zelepukin 1 0 1 ny rangers 1 0 1 2 washington 1 1 2 4 first period 1 , ny rangers , graves 36 \( zubov , andersson \) 6 17 2 , washington , ridley 26 \( unassisted \) 18 33 second period 3 , washington , hatcher 34 \( johansson \) 12 19 third period 4 , washington , jones 12 \( may \) 2 49 5 , washington , cote 21 \( khristich , pivonka \) pp , 18 55 6 , ny rangers , gartner 45 \( amonte , andersson \) pp , 19 50 washington 4 power play 7 1 scorer g pts cote 1 0 1 hatcher 1 0 1 johansson 0 1 1 jones 1 0 1 khristich 0 1 1 may 0 1 1 pivonka 0 1 1 ridley 1 0 1 ny rangers 2 power play 4 1 scorer g pts amonte 0 1 1 andersson 0 2 2 gartner 1 0 1 graves 1 0 1 zubov 0 1 1
stamber rainbow ecn purdue edu \( kevin l stamber \) subject difficult get penguin tickets \? organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 27 article 1993apr18 magnus acs ohio state edu , dmoney magnus acs ohio state edu \( dean r money \) writes subject line says terribly difficult get tickets penguins games , especially playoffs \? would easy find scalpers outside selling tickets \? dean money dmoney magnus acs ohio state edu traditional experience tickets , playoffs otherwise , civic arena illegal nonetheless present outside arena best strategy , given n't mind missing anthem \( ok b e taylor decides come back ever \) \) wait 7 40 7 45 , game rolling scalpers point desperate sell reduce near face value get rid tickets playoffs little different good seats go early 's left 7 45 may material \( , e sections \) others add opinions well kevin l stamber purdue university penguins 6 devils 3 pens lead series 1 game none
organization penn state university robbie po rap115 psuvm psu edu subject blues pull \? lines 10 left , 4 3 , blues 2 00 go ! predicted ! right first place ! ! ! blues 6 ! yes ! ! ! course 's one game could stab face wake 's playoffs , given day \) robbie po pgh penguins ! ! ! comes naturally ! patrick division semi 's '91 stanley cup see , wait penguins 6 , devils 3 '92 champions possibility , n't see penguins lead , 1 0 12 straight wins ! strong resemblance dg '89
kkeller mail sas upenn edu \( keith keller \) subject playoff pool entry form organization university pennsylvania , school arts sciences lines 45 nntp posting host mail sas upenn edu well , thanks everyone entered far least 40 entries , hopefully people enter deadline , 7 30 pm today , sunday , april 18 , 1993 ! interest fairness , since win anyway , feel right actually tell everyone picks , wo n't cry rigged declare winner series pick games division semifinals pittsburgh new jersey pittsburgh 5 washington ny islanders ny islanders 6 boston buffalo boston 5 quebec montreal quebec 7 chicago st louis chicago 4 detroit toronto detroit 6 vancouver winnipeg winnipeg 7 calgary los angeles calgary 7 division finals patrick pittsburgh 6 adams quebec 7 norris chicago 7 smythe calgary conference finals wales pittsburgh 5 campbell chicago 4 stanley cup winner pittsburgh 6 keith keller let's go rangers ! ! ! ! ! let's go quakers ! ! ! ! ! kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs ! ! ! ! want opinion , 'll give
andrew idacom hp com \( andrew scott \) subject usenet playoff pool \( important \) organization idacom , division hewlett packard lines 15 got back trip discover email spool file got blown away missing playoff pool entries sent april 5 april 17 looks like 200 entries got lost sigh therefore , would like ask person sent team resend asap relying honesty make changes deadline today thanks advance , apologize problem andrew scott andrew idacom hp com hp idacom telecom operation \( 403 \) 462 0666 ext 253 roman era , 28 considered old
gp2011 andy bgsu edu \( george pavlic \) subject aargh ! great hockey coverage ! ! \( devils \) organization bowling green state university b g , oh lines 22 article 1993apr18 news columbia edu , gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) wrote locked away , waiting tape delay start 's nice devils starting playoffs network television bad playoff game wabc early season yankees baseball game ! 's 12 2 win texas rangers 're delaying tape delay another half hour ballgame highlights ! ! ! think 's bad \? i'm bowling green , oh , get abc toledo well , cable co decided totally pre game \( tape delay , nothing \) stupid ! hockey big around , listen penguins win car radio parking lot thankful strong radio 230 miles pittsburgh , reception usually n't good ca n't believe picked middle day george
wangr vccsouth22 rpi edu \( rex wang \) subject tie breaker \( isles devils \) nntp posting host vccsouth22 rpi edu reply wangr rpi edu organization rensselaer polytechnic institute , troy , ny lines 9 people stupid \? \? \? tie breaker , cause record people sooooo stuppid put win first list tie breaker \? \? \? tie breaker , different record \? \? \? \? man , thought people net good hockey might great math , tell two teams ahve points different record \? \? \? man retard ! ! ! ! ! ! ca n't believe people actually put win first tie breaker
jca2 cec1 wustl edu \( joseph charles achkar \) subject blues steal game 1 hawks keywords blues , hull , shanahan , joseph , blackhawks , belfour nntp posting host cec1 organization washington university , st louis mo lines 125 blues scored two power play goals 17 seconds third period beat chicago blackhawks 4 3 sunday afternoon chicago stadium brendan shanahan tied game 3 3 brett hull scored game winner 17 seconds later jeff brown denny felsner scored blues goals brian noonan hat trick hawks , also good goaltending ed belfour blues goalie curtis joseph solid stretch preserve blues lead hawks came strong first period , blues 6 1 taking 1 0 lead noonan 's first goal right interference penalty rick zombo expired , keith brown intercepted clearing attempt blue line passed puck steve larmer right circle larmer fired long slap shot , noonan deflected puck joseph 's pads goal , blues picked intensity went hawks 10 9 first period jeff brown tied game 1 1 3 12 second nelson emerson broke left side , got craig muni pushed puck across slot belfour came play pass right boards , brown collected slapped belfour could get back goal two minutes later hawks power play , belfour stopped rich sutter short handed break chris chelios picked puck passed jeremy roenick carried right wing found open noonan nice pass across slot noonan fired past joseph 5 30 2 1 lead noonan completed hat trick 3 11 later increase lead 3 1 stephane matteau made nice pass right boards noonan beat stephane quintal driving net joseph chance noonan deflected puck net denny felsner reduced blues deficit 3 1 12 49 picking rebound basil mcrae 's slap shot slot janney set mcrae shot , puck sailed wide net bounced end boards felsner felsner rebound partially open net blues hawks 10 5 second period blackhawks leading 3 2 9 56 third , stephane matteau picked high sticking penalty 53 seconds power play , steve smith called slashing , giving blues 5 3 advantage 1 07 blues n't waste time brendan shanahan scored 23 seconds two man advantage tie game 3 3 janney found hull slot , hull fired rocket belfour jeff brown collected rebound passed shanahan left circle shanahan beat belfour sharp angle 17 seconds later , hull scored game winner blues nelson emerson broke right wing , carried puck behind net along two hawks defensemen emerson made nice pass unchecked hull slot , hull beat belfour put blues 4 3 hawks several chances tie game final minutes , joseph made brilliant saves prevent hawks scoring stopped troy murray point blank right crease 2 30 left game blues killed late hawks power play , rich sutter clearing puck hand along goal line blues held win game hawks blues 13 7 third period , 27 shots goal team blues special teams excellent game blues killed 6 7 hawks power plays , scored twice four power play chances blues ranked among best special teams league rank 2nd penalty killing 3rd power play game carried live abc , first time nhl game star game shown network television since may 24 , 1980 , cbs carried game 6 stanley cup finals best seven series continues wednesday chicago friday sunday st louis box score blues 4 , blackhawks 3 blues 0 2 2 4 chicago 1 2 0 3 first period chi noonan 1 \( larmer , k brown \) , 8 17 penalties shanahan , stl \( holding \) , 2 28 zombo , stl \( interference \) , 6 00 murphy , chi \( high sticking \) , 11 30 , chi \( boarding \) , 14 39 zombo , stl \( holding \) , 18 46 second period stl brown 1 \( shanahan , emerson \) , 3 12 chi \( ppg \) noonan 2 \( roenick , chelios \) , 5 40 chi noonan 3 \( matteau , sutter \) , 8 51 stl felsner 1 \( mcrae , janney \) , 12 49 penalties baron , stl \( interference \) , 4 33 wilson , stl \( tripping \) , 9 31 third period stl \( ppg \) shanahan 1 \( j brown , hull \) , 11 12 stl \( ppg \) hull 1 \( emerson , j brown \) , 11 29 penalties shanahan , stl \( roughing \) , 1 54 matteau , chi \( high sticking \) , 9 56 smith , chi \( slashing \) , 10 49 baron , stl \( roughing \) , 14 23 shots goal blues 10 10 7 27 chicago 9 5 13 27 power play opportunities st louis 2 4 chicago 1 7 goaltenders st louis , joseph , 1 0 0 \( 27 shots 24 saves \) chicago , belfour , 0 1 0 \( 27 23 \) referee kerry fraser linesmen kevin collins , brian murphy 16 , 199 \) l l e z l e b l u e ! ! ! joe ashkar contact blues saint louis jca2 cec1 wustl edu \( \) blues
maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) subject tie breaker \( isles devils \) organization dept computer science , laurentian university , sudbury , lines 18 lrw509f rpi edu wangr vccsouth22 rpi edu \( rex wang \) writes might great math , tell two teams ahve points different record \? \? \? man retard ! ! ! ! ! ! ca n't believe people actually put win first tie breaker well n't see smileys trying figure poster dog wordprocessor could n't neither smarter might great math cordially , always , maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca many morons rm little time
organization penn state university robbie po rap115 psuvm psu edu subject aargh ! great hockey coverage ! ! \( devils \) 1993apr18 news columbia edu lines 31 article 1993apr18 news columbia edu , gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) says locked away , waiting tape delay start think guy going little bit disappointed lemieux two , tocchet , mullen , tippett , jagr buzzed friend forgot scored mullen 's goal said , scored \? lemieux two , tocchet , tippett , jagr funny part said jagr part non process scoring asking question ! ! ! \) abc 's coverage n't bad scale 1 10 , give 8 games chi st louis la area \? \? \? 's nice devils starting playoffs network television bad playoff game wabc early season yankees baseball game ! 's stupid ! ! ! 'd complain television network ! even see pirates game instead penguins game time year , many would surely raise hell ! ! ! 's 12 2 win texas rangers 're delaying tape delay another half hour ballgame highlights ! ! ! texas good start , may pull year whoops ! belongs rec sport baseball ! ! ! robbie po pgh penguins ! ! ! comes naturally ! patrick division semi 's '91 stanley cup see , wait penguins 6 , devils 3 '92 champions possibility , n't see penguins lead , 1 0 12 straight wins ! strong resemblance dg '89
organization penn state university robbie po rap115 psuvm psu edu subject ! right first place ! ! ! lines 53 article vzhivov cunews , vzhivov superior carleton ca \( vladimir zhivov \) says 93107 psuvm psu edu robbie po rap115 psuvm psu edu writes 2 red wings vs 3 maple leafs maple leafs 6 comment 's kind tough rely yzerman team 's main weapon 's great , dino knows choking , puts burden steve even potvin 's hell season goaltending need playoffs great \) , seem remember little playoff history dino always shows playoffs , great pick pools n't forget fedorov , one top players nhl , imho , coffey stanley cup rings active players \( correct i'm wrong \) wings oh yeah , come dino could never take caps patrick division \? 3 games 1 last year got swept away second round two years ago rarely , ever , makes division 1 canucks vs 4 jets canucks 5 comment 's like vancouver vs selanne king domi \( enforcing \) help winnipeg little , maybe game canucks number except canuck playing like shit winnipeg win one , though think vancouver manage slip islanders , still pull vancouver winnipeg 's number , really n't matter 2 flames vs 3 kings flames 7 comment 7 games looks good kings always seem battle flames back running wo n't know memories last year 's season gretzky tear , many \? \? \? \? \? surrounding kings kings always seem battle \? \? \? kings always seem go least 6 7 , never play four five game serious 's difference battling pulling , take calgary pull 7 robbie po pgh penguins ! ! ! comes naturally ! patrick division semi 's '91 stanley cup see , wait penguins 6 , devils 3 '92 champions possibility , n't see penguins lead , 1 0 12 straight wins ! strong resemblance dg '89
athena mit edu \( david lin \) subject daigle kariya organization massachusetts institute technology lines 2 distribution world nntp posting host 007 12 mit edu hear daigle eb first pick next year word kariya \? \? \? anybody ever seen play tv \? \? \? \? also entering draft \? \? \?
doyle cs umass edu \( jim doyle \) subject umass big east hockey underway organization cs dept , umass amherst lines 39 nntp posting host gaia cs umass edu summary umass hires head coach first season since 1979 keywords umass mallen x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 mission revive hockey umass underway 4 pm saturday afternoon press conference held new mullins center arena former boston college asst coach joe mallen awarded 4 year , 85 , 000 year contract head coach umass mallen third viable pick position , right behind jeff jackson \( lake superior \) second behind shawn walsh \( umaine \) previous offers position rumored offered asst coaches brown , rpi head coach ahl springfield indians umass hockey disbanded 1979 due financial constraints undermined team 's position period years late november last year , 52 million mullins sports center opened following one year construction deadline slated play independent div ii div iii schedule upcoming winter officially entering hockey east winter 1994 season mallen yet comment player recruitment strategies potential team candidates expected leverage inside contacts within new england , bay state europe draw competitive , top ice players university umass slated 18 hockey upcoming fall semester expect hear hear sources j jim doyle univ massachusetts dept computer science staff programmer dcc email doyle gaia cs umass edu office room tel 413 545 home 91 ln tel 413 549 amherst ,
gomer pitt edu \( richard j coyle \) subject difficult get penguin tickets \? organization university pittsburgh lines 14 article 1993apr18 magnus acs ohio state edu dmoney magnus acs ohio state edu \( dean r money \) writes subject line says terribly difficult get tickets penguins games , especially playoffs \? would easy find scalpers outside selling tickets \? always scalpers tickets outside arena might pay bucks extra , always find look street message board , street front hyatt , even around gate 1 later buy , less money 'll pay , regular season could usually find near face value wait game time might better pick earlier , though rick
ccu umanitoba ca \( j k fu \) subject tie breaker \( isles devils \) nntp posting host data cc umanitoba ca organization university manitoba , winnipeg , canada lines 21 lrw509f rpi edu wangr vccsouth22 rpi edu \( rex wang \) writes people stupid \? \? \? tie breaker , cause record people sooooo stuppid put win first list tie breaker \? \? \? tie breaker , different record \? \? \? \? man , thought people net good hockey might great math , tell two teams ahve points different record \? \? \? man retard ! ! ! ! ! ! ca n't believe people actually put win first tie breaker \? believe devils islanders got 87 points say example , another team record 20 37 47 20 2 47 1 37 0 87 points total \( records 40 37 7 simple involve calculus john \( computer science graduate pretends \)
neumann uwaterloo ca \( \) subject bruins vs canadiens organization university waterloo lines 24 article 1993apr16 rose com jack petrilli rose com \( jack petrilli \) writes april 14 , richard amc com \( richard wernick \) wrote boston \? know sinden 's going find way screwing even good boston team 'll fire suter trade away vital star \( admittedly , last trades good ones long luck runs starts making esposito ratelle type trades \? \) trade bad \? seem recall ratelle making pretty good centre right wing combination , bruins also got brad park deal \( also lost somebody else \) trade , bruins two finals one semi final , , course , lost montreal \( please end \) doubt , however , keeping esposito would made difference series , rangers '79 \( years boston , matter \)
organization central michigan university martin hill cmuvm csv cmich edu subject nhl team milwaukee lines 24 well put , jason wisconsin , close relatives live port washington \( 30 minutes north milwaukee \) , visit city regularly , bradley four times see admirals play ncaa hockey championships beautiful building city like promote best facility hockey north america happen admirals milwaukee acquire franchise , word team move green bay play brown county arena , admirals independent franchise , people milwaukee supporting well games seen crowds anywhere 10 , 000 13 , 000 , numbers nhl teams \( e islanders , hartford , new jersey \) would nights plus fact city able support minor league franchise without nhl club affiliated testimony amount hockey interest exists city sincerely , martin hill , rt 2 , box , sault ste marie , mi \( home lssu go lakers ! \) p anybody know attendance figures ihl milwaukee stacks ihl cities atlanta , phoenix , san diego , cleveland , cincinnati \? , please reply
epritcha psych uiuc edu \( evan pritchard \) subject div conf names distribution na organization uiuc department psychology lines 59 maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) writes bu edu jason gibson writes live changes made \( e g playoff format change \) , change division conference names really annoys batman tsn last night saying changing names would make game easier occasional fan follow said meant changing names make game easier americans non hockey cities follow n't know many friends hard time following teams division even minimal amount exposure game allows person quickly pick nothing wrong making game easier americans follow fans even dislike occasional fan always chance fans become fanatics glad names changed another reason names patrick , smythe , norris , adams campbell names called builders game type thinking put stein hall fame absolute nonsense real builders game richard , , howe , conacher , orr , etc going name divisions people least name divisions people deserve think incorrect , roger patrick , smythe adams played coached league becoming front office types hence , help build league , although great players agree name name name , people trouble names easily processed fans , changing names easily processed seems like reasonable idea get people \( arena \) door , let 's , realize great game hockey , teach something history game history names put rather succinctly used game hockey make money imagine pocklington division \? ballard division \? green division \? , would want see ballard division say owners assholes , hence nhl management people assholes would fallacious conn smythe , example , classy individual \( heard \) also , n't point professional hockey make money involved , would include players think might saying players made much money due , players make game great people put ice , naming division management people rather players adding insult \( form lesser recognition \) injury \( less money deserved \) evan pritchard number 1 9 depending hockey pool epritcha psych uiuc edu
gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) subject aargh ! great hockey coverage ! ! \( devils \) nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) organization phds hall lines 21 robbie po rap115 psuvm psu edu writes gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) says locked away , waiting tape delay start think guy going little bit disappointed \? i'm calling penguins 6 way things stand , radio game hour devils wabc , 770 'd nice sony watchman , need paranoid , robbie n't judge geographic coordinates jets nordiques final 7 gld je souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go ! ! ! gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) subject div conf names organization dept computer science , laurentian university , sudbury , distribution na lines 63 news cso uiuc edu epritcha psych uiuc edu \( evan pritchard \) writes think incorrect , roger patrick , smythe adams played coached league becoming front office types hence , help build league , although great players punch 's contributions coach gm far greater combined name division trophy \? smythe norris bunch honoured purely powerful owners owners certainly help build league whether developed game another question altogether going honour contributed league 's evolution going honour contributed glory sport \? agree name name name , people trouble names easily processed fans , changing names easily processed seems like reasonable idea get people \( arena \) door , let 's , realize great game hockey , teach something history game ca n't disagree history names put rather succinctly used game hockey make money imagine pocklington division \? ballard division \? green division \? , would want see ballard division say owners assholes , hence nhl management people assholes would fallacious conn smythe , example , classy individual \( heard \) heard \? major definitive little asshole ! originated phrase ca n't beat 'em alley ca n't beat 'em ice idea hockey think , chance , cherry classy individual \? also , n't point professional hockey make money involved , would include players think might saying players made much money due , players make game great people put ice , naming division management people rather players adding insult \( form lesser recognition \) injury \( less money deserved \) money issue irrelevant point would agree , players make game great people put ice exactly true naming divisions trophies smythe bunch kind put stein hall fame always thought nonsense cordially , always , maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca many morons rm little time
roney sfu ca \( chris j roney \) subject div conf names organization simon fraser university , burnaby , b c , canada distribution na lines 33 epritcha psych uiuc edu \( evan pritchard \) writes , would want see ballard division say owners assholes , hence nhl management people assholes would fallacious conn smythe , example , classy individual \( heard \) depends mean classy 've heard , classy harold ballard difference back almost owners like , seemed okay comparison read book net worth one view smythe \( norris adams campbell \) like also , n't point professional hockey make money involved , would include players think might saying players made much money due , players make game great people put ice , naming division management people rather players adding insult \( form lesser recognition \) injury \( less money deserved \) even specifically , think roger saying \( said previously \) people made league great , divisions , conferences etc named instead , vezina , howe , orr etc , people make great instead , nhl chosen men got rich men made game great chris roney \( e mail chris roney sfu ca \)
jca2 cec1 wustl edu \( joseph charles achkar \) subject numerical nothingness nntp posting host cec1 organization washington university , st louis mo lines 38 article 1993apr18 freenet carleton ca freenet carleton ca \( bob wilson \) writes mario averaged 2 points per game gretzky averaged 2 69 pts game mario projected 80 games 213 points \( beats wayne 's record 1 \) check information posting , gretzky 's record 215 pts 80 games 84 games 97 g 127 224 points 84 games , gretzky 's total projected 226 points pitt 's winning percentage mario \( 45 10 5 \) 84 games 133 points would record \? know mtl 132 one year 76 77 canadiens 825 percentage , 132 pts 80 games \( 60 8 12 \) 29 30 bruins 875 winning percentage also 77 78 canadiens 806 percentage 59 10 11 record bob wilson freenet carleton ca \) l l e z l e b l u e ! ! ! joe ashkar contact blues saint louis jca2 cec1 wustl edu \( \) blues
mmilitzo scott skidmore edu \( matthew militzok \) subject nhl playoff stats scores organization skidmore college , saratoga springs ny lines 2 updated playoff updates \( scores , stats , summaries \) e mail \( mmilitzo skidmore edu \) subject stats
gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) subject rangers name keenan coach keywords hockey , men 's professional nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) organization phds hall lines 65 clarinews clarinet com \( upi \) writes clari sports hockey new york \( upi \) mike keenan , whose nhl coaching history wear welcome despite impressive winning , come city else well , could become fan \( seriously , news coming since thursday effectively robbed islanders devils sports talk shows almost everywhere 've sampled fact , playoffs almost n't exist \) ranger fans calling wfan new york one 's midnight sports talk mix fury season near orgasm keenan 's hiring \( summarizing keenan winner give broadway bums pursuing next cup chase \) chicago blackhawks cut last tie keenan forced general manager november given chicago 's coaching duties year ago thirst power gm increases pressure rangers gm neil smith interesting combination watch keenan paid enough money put shut coach , advice player moves listened closely lot big player moves happen remember keenan got rid denis savard country club days ``when keenan left chicago could n't help think coach , '' smith said ``there indication would taken market feared could n't let happen '' paramount given smith earlier sign support offered keenan big money put shut back january , rangers might heading golf keenan , 43 , takes team offers chance fashion yet another projects highest salary ever commanded nhl coach rangers owned gulf western bestowed upon keenan unprecedented 3 million , four year deal , ``i 've known mike long time , '' messier said ``we 've two canada cups together 's finals three times maybe miss one element win stanley cup n't think 's person 10 years ago even five years ago think changed experience '' one keenan 's first statements reaffirmation mark messier team 's captain timing move gives new coach 2 1 2 months prepare nhl draft \( june 26 \) , neil smith may back trade happy pattern , smith might bargains keenan 's advice like maybe unloading phil bourque tie domi \( gld je souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go ! ! ! gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
boora kits sfu ca \( godfather \) subject la abc canada organization simon fraser university , burnaby , b c , canada lines 16 abc coverage kings flames game supposed way shown bc cbc overriding abc coverage \? flipped abc , commentators , commercials even question real abc coverage cbc black abc coverage \? comment cbc great chance double headers toronto detroit vancouver winnipeg , today said east gets leafs west get vancouver game thought would show godfather
organization central michigan university martin hill cmuvm csv cmich edu subject college hockey star game lines 3 anybody know details star game featured best seniors college hockey game , maine \? , please reply
rrmadiso undergrad math uwaterloo ca \( chuck \) subject corrections playoff predictions organization university waterloo lines 29 everyone read already sent predictions , please correct patrick division would like midnight monday \( time \) may need correct games 3 pittsburgh vs new jersey 4 new york islanders vs washington 10 patrick division winner 13 wales conference winner 15 stanley cup winner please forward corrections richard madison rrmadiso napier uwaterloo ca 1st rd pens isles 4 devils caps 6 2nd pens devils 7
andy bgsu edu \( ryan \) subject smoking \? \( predictions classic playoff year ! \) organization bgsu lines 59 norris division tor vs det tor 7 \( , like mon vs que , another intense \( series watch ! \) chi vs tor tor 7 \( potvin settling nicely point \) vancouver vs toronto toronto 6 \( potvin series mvp \) kills stanley cup finals toronto maple leafs vs montreal canadiens \( classic stanley cup final matchup ! ! \) also dream come true ! montreal wins stanley cup 7th game 1 0 double overtime roy potvin spectacular throughout series share series mvp \( possible \) vincent nets game winner brilliant pass brian bellows ! canadiens star \( \? \) denis savard watched buddies play owners box nursing splinter thumb left disabled list since first game playoffs \( awww \) paul die hard habs fan living 3 die hard leafs fans ! speaking die hard , 's read , died hard laughing ! toronto , cup finals \? \? \? first , anyone planet heard team detroit \? al \( however spell idiot 's name \) must chicago , espn , said 's even close chicago win norris division playoffs , team close everyone picking chicago ! n't get , says 's easy choice \? god , chicago 1 4 1 wings , division point two , followed closely toronto , also good team ! leafs beating detroit doubt , even , n't going get chicago \( even amazingly \) get past hawks , would probably face vancouver , lose habs reaching finals , forget even , devoted wings fan , watch penguins easily three cup winners lemieux , jagr , tocchet , stevens , barrasso , done deal sorry detroit , wait til next year hey , paul 's picks , everyone right , leafs finals \? \? \? yeah make , 'll walk toronto get tickets , 's 700 mile walk ! ryan detroit red wings forgotten team ! go wings ! ! let 's hope penguins go early ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
colling ann arbor applicon slb com \( michael collingridge \) subject nhl team captains organization schlumberger cad cam ann arbor , michigan \( usa \) summary team captains selected \? lines 12 mist rangers soap box \( e captain nemesis ex coach roger nebula bad blood bath \) high hopes turned new coach mr \( keenan \) would like know procedures hockey teams use select captains \( including 's \) selected coaching staff , players vote captain , appointed management \? , subject , captain ever traded , resigned , striped title season \? team captain trivia would appreciated mike
maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) subject nhl team captains organization dept computer science , laurentian university , sudbury , lines 36 1993apr19 ann arbor applicon slb com colling ann arbor applicon slb com \( michael collingridge \) writes , subject , captain ever traded , resigned , striped title season \? leafs always kind second era , darryl sittler called cancer team , tore c leafs n't captain sittler eventually ended philly promised philly captaincy new gm \( sittler 's friend \) bobby clarke instead , sittler got traded detroit rick vaive leaf captain awhile slept one day took captaincy away traded chicago doug carpenter 's tenure leaf coach , attempt kiss ass gary leeman , leafs took away brad marsh give leeman leeman would n't take tried give back marsh , would n't take neither best story remember captain concerned mel bridgman , late senators philadelphia , bobby clarke , arguably one great captains time , bumped status playing coach captaincy bridgman came new captain reporter asked flyer bridgman captain since clarke still undisputed leader amongst players reporter told bridgman charge making sure soap showers always full cordially , always , maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca many morons rm little time
kkeller mail sas upenn edu \( keith keller \) subject tie breaker \( isles devils \) organization university pennsylvania , school arts sciences lines 35 nntp posting host mail sas upenn edu article lrw509f rpi edu wangr rpi edu writes people stupid \? \? \? tie breaker , cause record people sooooo stuppid put win first list tie breaker \? \? \? tie breaker , different record \? \? \? \? man , thought people net good hockey might great math , tell two teams ahve points different record \? \? \? man retard ! ! ! ! ! ! ca n't believe people actually put win first tie breaker , love stupid people \) listen , rex , hockey nhl , precise nhl , exist things called ties tie occurs game ends score team equal team gets one point tie also exits things called wins win one team higher score opponent \( oh yeah , two teams play time , say opponent \) team gets two points win , let 's say team record 38 wins , 36 losses , 10 ties another team record 40 wins , 38 losses 6 ties first team \( 38 2 \) 10 86 points second team \( 40 2 \) 6 86 points wow ! number points , number wins different ! \? \? ! \? ! \? ! \? ! 's amazing , rex , people talk wins first tiebreaker , well , 's means example , second team would win tiebreaker therefore better record , even though teams number points n't understand post , rex , maybe go back read , slowly \) \) \) \) \) \) keith keller let's go rangers ! ! ! ! ! let's go quakers ! ! ! ! ! kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs ! ! ! ! want opinion , 'll give
mamatha devineni ratnam mr47 andrew cmu edu subject atlanta hockey hell ! ! organization post office , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 23 nntp posting host po4 andrew cmu edu well , 's bad still pretty pissed local abc coverage cut first half hour coverage playing david 12 30 instead earlier time slot n't even understand problem didnt think enough people would watch game would decide show game \? showed remaining 2 5 hours game , would hurt play david regular time \? dont decent programming noon anyway called sports dept blasted machine called gain someone picked asked first half hour stanley cup playoffs , seemed bit confused explained bit detail , said 's upto programming dept call back monday , understand sports dept responsible preemption ca n't understand someone sports dept ca n't even recognise name playoffs shown station works anyway , going call tomorrow blast phone urge atlanta hockey fans call 2 ask thing next 4 weeks ratnam \( oh way , pens rule ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! \)
sclark epas utoronto ca \( susan clark \) subject ooops ! organization university toronto epas nntp posting host epas utoronto ca lines 18 picture , habs going last couple minutes game , leading 2 0 nords get power play , pull hextall , get goal bout minute later , get another one win overtime bad dream \? 's red hot chili peppers song go give away , give away , give away oh well suppose always watch leafs win tomorrow night \( smilies \) female hockey fan world \? susan carroll clark sclark epas utoronto ca
jbe5 jbe5 musicb mcgill ca subject nords 3 habs 2 robbed ! ! lines 50 nntp posting host vm1 mcgill ca organization mcgill university aargh ! paul stewart worst biased ref presently nhl called total 4 penalties habs one nordiques penalty came stewart , ex nordique , looking call penalties habs letting nords get away murder robbed ! ! ! ! excellent game plenty end end rushes tremendous nords tied 1 minute go lebeau serving penalty n't mind stewart calling penalty last 5 min game , least fair nords caught hand cookie jar stewart turned cheek bastard ! patrick roy collapsed letting tieing goal shaky knees rest night winning goal n't gone n't get wrong , i'm blaming loss stewart habs plenty chances , muller , leclair , haller , etc failed put puck net 's mr stewart n't help matters oh well , least bruins lost also ha , ha ! ! \) , , , \( 0 0 \) ooo \( \) ooo czar mainframe computing jbe5 musicb mcgill ca mcgill university i'm sexy cobol habs beat nords 7 ! ! ! ! let 's go expos ! hickory , doc , took good look cock 's really scary hairy , smells like 10 year old sock ! andrew dice clay disclaimer needless say opinions expressed czar represent faculty , staff , students mcgill university
colling ann arbor applicon slb com \( michael collingridge \) subject truly sad day hockey organization schlumberger cad cam ann arbor , michigan \( usa \) summary norm greene happenings lines 20 article , acc admin stolaf edu \( mad dog \) reports fine 26 year history came close tonight , minnesota north stars , norm 's stars \( whichever prefer \) lost red wings score 5 3 stars goals scored mike mcphee ulf dahlen , two including final one franchise history , less minute play stories report norm 's farewell twin cities \? earlier post , announced norm green given midnight last home game north stars cleanup belongings turn keys arena happen \? norm run town \? rumor attempting remove score board , score board fell ice flattened mr greedy large piece green paper arena management use zamboni \( confiscated norm 's truck \) clean useless remains mike
gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) subject atlanta hockey hell ! ! nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) organization phds hall lines 24 mamatha devineni ratnam mr47 andrew cmu edu writes ca n't understand someone sports dept ca n't even recognise name playoffs shown station works think 's bad one year , three new york teams playoffs operator \( scny shared channel bet someone forgot throw switch 6pm \) n't know talking 's nice nhl back american network tv , faces problems star game local zero promotion \( okay , n't watch much tv i'm foaming right \? \) league made sure solid cable going networks year one new espn contract , saturation coverage sca \( games shown completion , like quebec montreal sabres bruins \) missed around gld je souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go ! ! ! gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
vzhivov superior carleton ca \( vladimir zhivov \) subject flames truly brutal loss organization carleton university lines 28 subject suggests flames impressive afternoon , dropping 6 3 decision la kings flames neglected show , especially zone , kings hit least five posts ! flames best line probably skrudland paslawski berube \( tells bad flames \) gary suter scored great goal \( fact three flame goals scored men yawney dahlquist getting others \) , also made bonehead plays kings , pat conacher especially impressive games , dan lost control early never recovered high sticks , cross checks , punches , hits behind fleury got game misconduct rubbing warren rychel behind flames dominated game physically , failed take advantage due horrendous defensive lapses \( n't think vernon blamed goals \) calgary went 7 men , roger johansson played lw looked lost imho hope king inserts chris lindbergh , paul , sergei makarov wednesday 's game gretzky left game 2nd period charley horse idea serious n't return still think flames win series , better vlad impaler
kkeller mail sas upenn edu \( keith keller \) subject playoff pool update organization university pennsylvania , school arts sciences lines 44 nntp posting host mail sas upenn edu well , compiled statistics entries pool 52 stats teams picked win pittsburgh 34 \( 1 sweep , 14 5 , 15 6 , 4 7 \) boston 6 \( 1 5 , 5 6 \) detroit 4 \( 3 6 , 1 7 \) montreal 2 \( 1 5 , 1 7 \) toronto 2 \( 1 6 , 1 7 \) \( , n't roger \) calgary 1 \( 6 \) quebec 1 \( 6 \) vancouver 1 \( 7 \) washington 1 \( 6 \) hell n't anybody picked chicago \? \? \? nobody ! quebec got pick , detroit got 4 , absolutely chicago ! odd losers detroit 20 chicago 16 \( ! \) pittsburgh 6 vancouver 4 boston 2 calgary 2 los angeles 1 \? ! \? toronto 1 los angeles \? \? \? \? \? \? \? mind \? ! \? ! \? good luck , 'll need ! pittsburgh consensus winner stanley cup 'll statistically beat detroit 6 games haha 's happening ! ! said , every one picks come true , picked chicago lose pittsburgh finals , tough luck picket detroit well , tough luck ya ! genius ! ! ! \) keith keller let's go rangers ! ! ! ! ! let's go quakers ! ! ! ! ! kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs ! ! ! ! cow vegetarian dish keith keller , 1993
gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) subject flames truly brutal loss nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) organization phds hall distribution na lines 13 game would great part double header abc espn league would able push back back wins le great one unfortunately , network would done sca , seen areas hard justify pay channel \) gld je souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go ! ! ! gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject possible canadian wc team \? organization university toronto chemistry department lines 22 article 1993apr18 news columbia edu gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) writes nlu xenon stanford edu \( nelson lu \) writes centers mark messier , n rangers messier invited due nagging injuries press made issue , attempted link internal political woes , mike keenan repeated messier personally msg press conference makes sense messier would probably declined invitation made publicity actually , messier invited , declined due nagging injuries keenan messier always gotten along keenan dumped steve yzerman last canada cup team , even though yzerman endured training camp , messier missed essentially entire camp recovering injuries became available last moment gerald
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject daigle kariya organization university toronto chemistry department lines 15 article senator bedfellow mit edu athena mit edu \( david lin \) writes hear daigle eb first pick next year word kariya \? \? \? anybody ever seen play tv \? \? \? \? also entering draft \? \? \? people seeming less concerned kariya 's size leads teams championships \( world junior us college \) collects awards everyone watching interest perform left wing eric lindros mark recchi world championships 4 months go chances good would go top five become probable great world championship could put top 3 daigle pronger gerald
organization university notre dame office univ computing vma cc nd edu subject octopus detroit \? 1993apr18 1 nickel laurentian ca lines 9 detroit , octopus symbol old days league era original 6 , four teams made playoffs win cup , team win two seven game series words took 8 playoff wins win cup octopus \( 8 legs \) become common detroit symbol every year around playoff time people start octopus \( octopi \? \) joe louis arena throwing onto ice j old e mail vma cc nd edu
allan cs ualberta ca \( allan sullivan \) subject cherry coach 's corner summary april 18 , 1993 nntp posting host st cs ualberta ca organization university alberta , edmonton , canada lines 68 summary cherry 's coach 's corner april 18 , 1993 took place first intermission game 1 montreal quebec series pre game comments 's comments mostly aimed goalies goalie gets back star form \( roy hextall \) win series team summary episode took place holding hot dog bought concession stand ron maclean started showing cartoon appeared toronto sun featured picture , saw shadow proclaimed look dat , eh \? means another 6 weeks beauty next , talked hot dog holding according , hot dogs quebec stadium best food arenas nhl , commented quebec montreal game game great flow , referee paul stewart calls best game nhl contrast , calgary la game terrible stop go , 50 minutes penalties called calgary dan marouelli getting ref calls penalties gets ref finals next , ron showed old picture , playing rochester americans ahl recalled wins quebec arena memorial cup ahl championships finally , ron discussed keenan becoming coach rangers rangers talented team feels sorry temporary coach ron smith , several key injuries \( leetch patrick \) goalies went cold criticism rangers team party 's , adolf \( keenan \) rangers organization longer ny go tank adolf , 'll hanging thumbs rating nothing special episode 'll give 5 5 10 allan sullivan \( allan cs ualberta ca \) department computing science , university alberta , edmonton , alberta , canada \( \) opinions mine mine alone amazing much accomplished one cares gets credit u golden bears hockey motto \( c drake \)
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject flames truly brutal loss organization university toronto chemistry department lines 11 article vzhivov cunews vzhivov superior carleton ca \( vladimir zhivov \) writes subject suggests flames impressive afternoon , dropping 6 3 decision la kings flames neglected show , especially zone , kings hit least five posts ! flames best line probably mike vernon 3 wins 11 losses plus star game debacle afternoon games career another afternoon game los angeles next sunday abc deal doomed flames \? gerald
karim edvard ahmed ka0k andrew cmu edu subject goodbye , good riddance , get lost 'stars organization senior , economics , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 15 nntp posting host po2 andrew cmu edu reply sms business uwo ca goodbye minnesota , never earned right nhl franchise first place ! hope enjoy twin city wide mania high school hockey \( hey , way old pee wee team reunion regina , care come film event \? \) yee haa golden gophers whatta weird town ! ! ! ! ! 's stupid western business school \? \? \? ! ! ! first cary asshole , n't anything better instead obnoxious , antagonistic little shits network \? \? \? n't take hike , stop embarrasing , school , canada ! kea
organization central michigan university ryan j cmuvm csv cmich edu subject beat pittsburgh ! andrew cmu edu 1993apr15 guvax acc georgetown edu blue cis pitt edu lines 7 beat penguins \? crash team plane ryan
epp mala bc ca \( lorne epp \) subject la abc canada organization malaspina college lines 27 article boora sfu ca , boora kits sfu ca \( godfather \) writes abc coverage kings flames game supposed way shown bc cbc overriding abc coverage \? flipped abc , commentators , commercials even question real abc coverage cbc black abc coverage \? nanaimo \( vancouver island , \) got abc coverage probably depends cable company started switching cbc abc broadcasts , finally settled abc ca n't stand whitman , al michaels decent job followed play pretty well , knew players' names , made couple rookie mistakes noticed one thing surprised never attempted explain rule paranoid really happening department fights game , couple occasions looked like fight start times abc cut away show closeup coach mcnall something abc decided adopt policy \? lorne epp epp mala bc ca
laplace uwaterloo ca \( alfred yim \) subject blackhawks win ! ! ! lines 15 organization university waterloo article 1993apr16 vax cns muskingum edu , jbrown vax cns muskingum edu writes hawks win ! ! roenick scored 50 th goal hawks put leafs place , losers column leafs even beat hawks match little meaning hate see wings oh btw laugh rm , jerky ! ! ! go hawks ! ! ! jb gotta tell ya , hawks ca n't beat blues game significant ca n't wait see blues might toronto \) btw , think hawks deserved win game think watching one everyone else leaf fan alfred \( yong jeh \) yim 4b mathematics \( actuarial science \) university waterloo , canada e mail descartes waterloo edu
gballent hudson uvic ca \( greg ballentine \) subject wings win nntp posting host hudson uvic ca reply gballent hudson uvic ca organization university victoria , victoria , bc , canada lines 25 article vela acs oakland edu , ragraca vela acs oakland edu \( randy graca \) writes also think hard time pittsburgh face finals \( detroit sportswriters predicting \) although think bryan murray probably best gm ever seen hockey figure \? \? bryan murray took wings pretty good team contending stanley cup looked unlikely win pretty good team contending stanley cup looks unlikely win truly great gm would able make moves push team upper nhl maybe win stanley cup good gm \( like murray \) maintain team 's success ca n't push next level history hockey several better gm 's murray way many name murray n't even best gm league today fails comparison sinden , sather , savard , caron , fletcher quinn estimation ca n't imagine bryan murray best gm anyone ever seen hockey unless seen gm 's gregmeister
neath brazil psych purdue edu \( ian neath \) subject thumbs espn organization purdue university lines 13 jca2 cec1 wustl edu \( joseph charles achkar \) writes nice see espn show game 1 wings leafs since cubs astros got rained instead showing another baseball game , decided stanley cup playoffs classy move espn indiana showed tape delay chicago v boston , wgn cubs wgn showed hitchcock hockey \( least part state \) go ! ian neath four kinds people world neath psych purdue edu , fools , morons lunatics u eco
mlindroos finabo abo fi \( marcus lindroos inf \) subject expanding europe dusseldorf reply pkortela snakemail hut fi 's message 15 apr 93 14 47 30 gmt organization abo akademi university , finland x news reader vms news 1 24 lines 75 pkortela lk hp 17 hut fi pkortela snakemail hut fi writes deg many german born forwards team fact majority players german born 1992 93 deg average spectator arena interesting ! one german friends \( robert \? \) told forwards canadian germans perhaps somebody sort us \? possible nhl \( european league \) site list switzerland berne , zurich \( 1 2 others \) ok , ai n't north america , still doubt city pop 500 , 000 could support nhl team course , switzerland probably judged one large city small distances cities still germany dusseldorf , cologne , berlin , munich \( mannheim , \) dusseldorf \? yes , although arena anachronism \( open wall behind one goals essentially outdoor arena ! \) cologne 's arena seats 7 , 000 8 , 000 , berlin 6 , 000 new facility built unless olympic bid successful munich arena sweden stockholm , gothenburg \( malmo , \) malmo big enough , also need new arena current one 5 , 000 seats think finland helsinki \( turku , tampere \) 're talking nhl , even helsinki would struggle make work turku \( despite excellent arena \) tampere nowhere near big enough major league hockey italy milan rome south question could well africa hockey fans romans given chance host games showed interest whatsoever teams italian league come milan smaller cities north france paris \( , \? \) paris \( sp \) pro team couple years ago believe even made european club championship finals tournament one year , eventually folded due lower hoped remaining cities seem small support minor sport like hockey norway \( oslo \) austria \( vienna , \) \( \) slovakia \( bratislava \) russia \( moscow , st petersburg \) easter cities lack money infrastructure support pro hockey great britain \? perhaps european teams like tampa bay lightning anyway playing small 10 , 000 seat arena , backed japanese money , run enthusiasts \( phil esposito \) , heavy marketing , fans difficulty telling icing means london mentioned , sheffield birmingham also large arenas new mega facility \( 16 , 000 seats ! \) might built bristol couple years netherlands \? facilities speak biggest arena \( eindhoven \) seats 2 , 500 fans hockey petteri kortelainen marcu
j3david sms business uwo ca \( james david \) subject plus minus stat organization university western ontario nntp posting host sms business uwo ca lines 65 roger maynard shares views , masses , bob gainey life general 1993apr15 sol uvic ca gballent hudson uvic ca \( greg ballentine \) writes selke candidate forwards main purpose shift prevent goals scored score lemieux gilmour play number one purpose score defence secondary especially considering line plays probably defensive one selke candidates gainey best defensive forward ever stand assessment good player belongs hall fame ever watch play \? never made technical error watched entire career never seen player , includes russell courtnall keon , screw many bob gainey never forget time denis potvin caught gainey head sold bill goods bob gainey bryan trottier , denis potvin vicious behind trottier given major roger , hell gainey 's skill hockey player \? probert gilmour 's head boards next week , diminish assessment gilmour 's skills \? gainey plugger press runs things say stars dynasties start hype pluggers grant fuhr , essa tikkannen , butch goring , bob nystrom , bob gainey , doug jarvis , derek sanderson , wayne cashman , bob baun , bob pulford , ralph backstrom , henri richard , dick duff would take fuhr sanderson latter think gainey would honoured know 've included list also think relatively naive view wins hockey game pluggers integral part team selke designed acknowledge contribution think people understand 's nobel prize settle cordially , always , rm roger maynard maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca congenially , always , jd james david david student business uwo ca j3david sms business uwo ca \( james david \) western business school london , ontario
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject rangers give nhl another organization university toronto chemistry department lines 10 news reports toronto say rangers insisting kovalev , zubov , andersson play binghampton calder cup playoffs , rather return play home countries world championships shame rangers another black eye nhl europe gerald
rrmadiso undergrad math uwaterloo ca \( chuck \) subject playoff predictions organization university waterloo lines 32 predictions \( try laugh hysterically \) somebody save laugh win pool n't prizes , love bragging rights , winner takes also somebody sort scoring system let know thinking 1 1st round victories , 2 second , 3 3rd , 4 4th may get alot ties ideas \? 1 buffalo 2 montreal 3 pittsburgh 4 washington 5 chicago 6 toronto 7 winnipeg 8 los angeles 9 montreal 10 pittsburgh 11 chicago 12 winnipeg 13 montreal 14 chicago 15 montreal richard madison rrmadiso napier uwaterloo ca
farenebt logic camp clarkson edu \( droopy \) subject ahl calder cup playoff preview organization clarkson university lines 37 nntp posting host logic clarkson edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 daryl turner \( umturne4 ccu umanitoba ca \) wrote article 1993apr14 news clarkson edu farenebt craft camp clarkson edu \( droopy \) writes atlantic division st john's maple leafs vs moncton hawks moncton hawks see cd islanders moncton similar team cdi low scoring , defensive , good goaltending john leblanc stu barnes noticable guns team defense top notch mike o'neill underrated goalie league bri , tried tell since 2 february , michael o'neill might underrated goalie ahl , ahl 's winnipeg injury list , since first nhl start ottawa senators 's next year surgery repair shoulder separation stu barnes might ahl gun hawks , 's third line center jets , since mid january sorry , memory gone thought o'neill got sent back february must given incorrect info guess says moncton barnes still one top 3 scorers even though 's since january bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl ecac contact rec sport hockey go usa hockey ! adirondack red wings , calder cup champs '81 '86 '89 '92 clarkson hockey , ecac tournament champs '66 '91 '93 glens falls high hockey , ny division ii state champs '90 '91 ahl fans join ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu congrats boston bruins , 1992 93 adams division champions phoenix suns , 1992 93 pacific division champions
dwk cci632 cci com \( dave \) subject individual winners \( doubters \? hmm \? \) summary picks organization northern telecom , inc network application systems lines 45 well , since mentioned article 1993apr12 6300 jarvis csri toronto edu , turing toronto edu \( mike godfrey \) writes lemieux clearly mvp question chip masterson well selanne wins calder yep chelios norris , asked 30 days ago , 'd agree give nod raymond bourque play took time b 's chelios gets close second dunno wins vezina , suspect potvin barrasso finally gets due , close one eddie eagle coach year tricky burns least raw talent , king good job flames clearly last year , brian sutter done exceptionally well first year new team , ditto demers , page blessed acquisition young talent , darryl sutter good year rookie coach , berry made best bad situation , terry crisp worked minor miracles , bowman bowman 'd pick burns , i'm mildly biased case , bias acceptable \) mine shows norris pick , 're even i'm impressed coaches mentioned , pick would al many folks thought isles would playoffs , let alone contend 3rd division granted little help cousins broadway \) like islanders much like mowing lawn mike godfrey david \( dwk cci com \) northern telecom nas rochester , new york 's nothing eat six seven pieces pizza , go dinner wife remember pizza jacques demers
desperate fan subject help ! wc coverage europe originator messi uku fi organization university kuopio , finland lines 6 desperate fan ps sweden vs finland finished 6 6 gothenburg 15th apr
swartzjh rosevc rose hulman edu subject espn tonight organization rose hulman institute technology lines 7 reply swartzjh rosevc rose hulman edu nntp posting host hydra rose hulman edu anyone heard game espn showing tonight said show whatever game means playoff wise would assume would blues tampa game minnesota red wings game anyone heard sure \? \? \? jeff swartz
fmsalvat eos ncsu edu \( frank michae salvatore \) subject patrick division correction ! originator fmsalvat 106ps eos ncsu edu reply fmsalvat eos ncsu edu \( frank michae salvatore \) organization north carolina state university , project eos lines 22 article 93105 psuvm psu edu , robbie po rap115 psuvm psu edu writes well , little predictions ! one , n't count devils scoring 6 goals tonight 6 6 tie , hence , goes streak ! secondly , n't count islanders getting 1 point 4 whalers two games , isles capitals new 1 penguins vs 4 islanders penguins 6 7 2 capitals vs 3 devils devils 7 pay predictions heed , considering could n't even predict proper matchups \? maybe try weather instead frank salvatore fmsalvat eos ncsu edu
maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) subject plus minus stat organization dept computer science , laurentian university , sudbury , lines 79 sms business uwo ca j3david sms business uwo ca \( james david \) writes bryan trottier , denis potvin vicious behind trottier given major perhaps trottier happened behind habs goal recall gainey simply n't head picking puck roger , hell gainey 's skill hockey player \? probert gilmour 's head boards next week , diminish assessment gilmour 's skills \? gilmour taken completely surprise , gainey , yeah , would say doug n't playing technically smart hockey case , claim greg , gainey never made technical mistake absolutely ludicrous gainey plugger press runs things say stars dynasties start hype pluggers grant fuhr , essa tikkannen , butch goring , bob nystrom , bob gainey , doug jarvis , derek sanderson , wayne cashman , bob baun , bob pulford , ralph backstrom , henri richard , dick duff would take fuhr sanderson latter good 'd displaying ignorance course , think gainey would honoured know 've included think gainey feel honoured know remembered list also think relatively naive view wins hockey game pluggers integral part certainly pluggers integral part team simply enough solid two way players go around would rather checking centre \? doug gilmour doug jarvis \? matter would take either gretzky mario checking centres think gretzky could cover bob gainey \? team selke designed acknowledge contribution think people understand 's nobel prize settle 're wrong selke awarded forward best job defensively may may best plugger gilmour best defensive job league n't see running simply also contributes settle \? think selke nobel prize suggest best settle going try put words mouth , let suggest settle bother following postings congenially , always , jd james david david student business uwo ca might consider developing style , imitation form flattery quite sure flattery intention cordially , always , rm roger maynard maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca
brifre1 ac dal ca subject european expansion f cked system organization dalhousie university , halifax , nova scotia , canada lines 36 everyone keeps talking european expansion 2010 thinking wishful thoughts , totally ball league format use incompatible europe \( n't know , best teams lower divisions get promoted worst get demoted \) would european fans put 've paid , play attitude \? \? long would support teams run ranger based corporate thinking \( use term lightly \) \( n't need good product nyc would fill arena ottawa 's record every year 1940 ! ! haha \( sorry , ta say \) \) hockey \( pro sports \) similar system europe , maybe teams like rangers would forced compete \( get demoted fourth division \) 'd many teams centres n't big \( like halifax adirondack ok , halifax n't good example \) would eventually get promoted , every team would somewhat within division \( unlike ottawa , sj , edmonton , etc \) fans would eventually get rewarded loyalty \( penalized neglect \) , league would interesting dynamic every year newly promoted teams \( halifax citadels win stanley cup dream , ca n't \? \? \) look british \( european \) soccer example \( never fan problems \) someone thinks system really sucks barfly \( feel free flame , account ends today \) 1940 ! !
formeza panix com \( owl \) subject rangers top ten keywords rangers organization panix public access unix , nyc lines 28 netnews upenn edu kkeller mail sas upenn edu \( keith keller \) writes 7 carol alt , head coach 93 94 \? wish ! head coach time ! ! ! ! \( sorry ali ! back real hockey \) hmmmmmm think 'll let everyone make comment one bad alexei kovalev rangers think signed \? think another domi \? let play ! 4th line better stays minors gets ice time time whose bad \? neilson smith 's decision play , 's mean , 's bad kovalev good player 're right , n't stranded fourth line maybe 'd produce sound familiar \? darren turcotte \? neilson smith bad kovalev magical lets go pens ! owl
igor tse su subject broadcast wc originator messi uku fi organization central red army , soviet union lines 9 german satellite channels show world championship action dusseldorf munich \? someone please tell \( must able root red machine \) ! thank russians world title , nordiques cup ! ! !
seth cbnewsh cb att com \( peter r clark jr \) subject flyers year 's biggest worst \( opinion \) organization distribution na keywords nhl , awards lines 80 article 1993apr14 cbnewsm cb att com , jmd cbnewsm cb att com \( joseph dakes \) writes article 1993apr13 cbnewsh cb att com , seth cbnewsh cb att com \( peter r clark jr \) writes roussel giving almost another goal game facing proportional number shots number minutes played , actually checked believe faced lower quality opponent make less half goal game lower quality argument immaterial neither roussel soderstrom say matter dineen 's decision words , roussel shuts sharks soderstrom shuts penguins , 's immaterial coaches decision \? come , joe , think 're saying ! played significant played 's irrelevent low gaa good teams better low gaa bad teams context comparing two goaltenders low gaa better higher gaa low gaa good teams much , much better higher gaa bad teams context comparing two goaltenders fact matter , despite last nights shutout , n't takes last night due inept ranger team much roussel 's skill 3 1 n't get shot away \? 2 none one guy passes stops , guy shoots roussel 's pad \? c'mon , pete \? rangers inept shutout shutout soderstrom 's toronto , mike quoted saying n't think leafs much offensive firepower past first line make soderstrom 's shutouts less impressive toronto 's lack offense \? yes ! absolutely context comparing two goaltenders course , end season 2 points 2 points matter get score sheets shutouts shutouts 're coach deciding two goalies , gm looking make trade , got look deeper stat sheets n't see second toronto game , first one defensive masterpiece nothing game judge tommy soderstrom n't tested roussel ranger game two real scoring chances , one made great play , saved mistake player judging roussel game alone , little go look 0 0 tie habs , saw goalie stand head get shutout 1 goalie action roussel n't game like well look back november roussel 1 goalie \( soderstrom treated heart ailment \) flyers finished november 6 3 1 9 10 4 overall 's way knowing flyers would finished n't wearing 'n black i'm glad n't find anytime soon either one hell player would take roussel right , still think dom takes 1 guy hextall enough '91 92 season make flyers management think way n't sure flyers management never says bad thing roussel , n't say much good side either 've seen least two interviews every time asked happy two good goaltenders , tommy , tommy , oh , yeah , dom played well way , final card monday night \? team picture chance \? flyers nhl hall fame kinda dull , really handed team picture everybody walked pizza hut , picture sold programs mid season names like benning , kasper flyers choose fans received shirts backs \? winning recchi 's jersey breaking club 's single season point record would nice knowing luck would roussel 's \) ! mostly random seat locations , given certain team photos n't like method since 've seen guards help people get things like lindros pictures , surely got hands autographed picture 'd hold 'em buddies pete clark
brifre1 ac dal ca subject goalie masks organization dalhousie university , halifax , nova scotia , canada lines 22 article hydra gatech edu , gtd597a prism gatech edu \( hrivnak \) writes i'm starting informal poll goalie masks 'd like know 's mask think looks best 've always like curtis joseph 's blues best anyway , send nominations , post vote r h e mail adress gtd597a prism gatech edu thanks time saw mask drawings band aids , presumably every puck goalie stopped face head ca n't remember even nhl \( see quite ahl games \) far funniest mask 've seen , funny cool go skins ! next question emotional music quite go braves ! effect \? mike patton , faith go hornets ! go capitals ! mike friedman \( hrivnak fan ! \) internet gtd597a prism gatech edu barfly
gballent hudson uvic ca \( greg ballentine \) subject plus minus stat nntp posting host hudson uvic ca reply gballent hudson uvic ca organization university victoria , victoria , bc , canada lines 33 article ramsey cs laurentian ca , maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) writes certainly pluggers integral part team simply enough solid two way players go around would rather checking centre \? doug gilmour doug jarvis \? matter would take either gretzky mario checking centres think gretzky could cover bob gainey \? gretzky , lemieux , gilmour etc play role checking play offensive role opposed defensive one used defensive centres would waste offensive abilities compare gretzky et al jarvis , gainey etc comparing apples oranges like telling felix potvin n't good team would better lemieux instead sure lemieux better player , different type player team successful , need types players includes defensive forwards compared defensive forwards , bob gainey greatest defensive forward ever player 's talents best suited defensive forward completely dominated game played maybe talented player gretzky decided waste offensive talents play defensively , could better defensive forward , n't bob gainey best defensive forward ever played hockey gregmeister
filinuk staff dccs upenn edu \( geoff filinuk \) subject get real caps chance reply filinuk staff dccs upenn edu \( geoff filinuk \) organization university pennsylvania lines 7 nntp posting host staff dccs upenn edu anyone really believes caps beat pens kidding pens may loose one game playoffs geoff filinuk flyers fan
vzhivov superior carleton ca \( vladimir zhivov \) subject individual winners \( doubters \? hmm \? \) organization carleton university lines 52 1993apr15 cci632 cci com dwk cci632 cci com \( dave \) writes well , since mentioned article 1993apr12 6300 jarvis csri toronto edu , turing toronto edu \( mike godfrey \) writes chelios norris , asked 30 days ago , 'd agree give nod raymond bourque play took time b 's chelios gets close second kevin hatcher \? scored roughly 35 goals , plays 30 minutes game dunno wins vezina , suspect potvin barrasso finally gets due , close one eddie eagle 's really sad two second rate goalies \( barasso belfour \) main contenders vezina call crazy , tommy soderstrom five shutouts 6th place team n't really play defense 's really unfortunate better goalies league \( mclean , essensa , vernon \) years btw , going award norris basis last 30 days , give vezina moog \? best goalie past month coach year tricky burns least raw talent , king good job flames clearly last year , brian sutter done exceptionally well first year new team , ditto demers , page blessed acquisition young talent , darryl sutter good year rookie coach , berry made best bad situation , terry crisp worked minor miracles , bowman bowman 'd pick burns , i'm mildly biased case , bias acceptable \) mine shows norris pick , 're even i'm impressed coaches mentioned , pick would al many folks thought isles would playoffs , let alone contend 3rd division granted little help cousins broadway \) like islanders much like mowing lawn king burns probably win , since playoffs n't taken consideration 's ok regular season , i'm sure 's beaten anyone hartford playoffs vlad impaler
gmuvax gmu edu subject david polie 's future organization george mason university , fairfax , va lines 33 article 1993apr14 ncsu edu , fmsalvat eos ncsu edu \( frank michae salvatore \) writes bad news patrick division next year caps gm david polie reportedly trying get front office job nhl ca n't believe polie fired despite 10 years mediocrity know frank \? 's david 's fault caps mediocrity long blame owner , abe ! guy owns nba 's bullets nhl 's capitals dumb selfish could guy \? 's unwilling spend bucks order get big star wonder teams stink ! 've heard capitals chance get detroit 's steve yzerman last summer pulled last minute \? good man , abe , afraid spend cash ! nevertheless , i'm still faithful hoping one day dictator replaced frank salvatore fmsalvat eos ncsu edu van matter buy underwear \? ! tom cruise , rain man van k q 's orange , black , ugly george mason university basement \? electrical engineering '93 da philadelphia flyers ! gmuvax gmu edu gmu edu let 's go cap !
pitt edu \( richard v \) subject winning streaks organization university pittsburgh lines 24 article 93105 psuvm psu edu rap115 psuvm psu edu \( robbie po \) writes penguins 18 game unbeaten streak carries next season meaning , start season another 18 game unbeaten streak , flyers record right , penguins 11 game winning streak , streaks carry one year another hmmmm , i'm sure true according mike lang good old , along rest tv crews pittsburgh , winning streak could stopped regular season mark would think would also hold unbeaten streak regular season games however , right playoff streak carry last year 1 win , believe tie edmonton record \( n't quote one \) robbie po pgh penguins ! ! ! wo n't easy , contact '93 '94 '91 stanley cup greater rewards penn state lady lions '92 champions mountains valleys rap115 psuvm psu edu 11 straight wins ! better nothing !
apland mala bc ca \( ron apland \) subject plus minus stat organization malaspina college lines 28 article 1993apr15 sol uvic ca , gballent hudson uvic ca \( greg ballentine \) writes article 1 tnclus tele nokia fi , hahietanen tnclus tele nokia fi \( \) writes article 1993apr14 sol uvic ca , gballent vancouver uvic ca \( greg ballentine \) writes good stat stat aware takes account defensive play n't measure defensive play takes account offense defence aspects play interested real round players , power play stats considered , power play also one aspect play ! still something done player evaluation tools ! ! imo good player score power plays man advantage good power play scorers tend become overrated point totals inflated power play points tends expose overrated players brett hull , john cullen dave andreychuck given opportunity play power play consistently , player inflate totals gregmeister except vancouver , course bure hard time scoring power play 's got 7 shorthanded goals 13 pp goals think !
kkeller mail sas upenn edu \( keith keller \) subject playoff pool , rules , entry form organization university pennsylvania , school arts sciences lines 39 nntp posting host mail sas upenn edu well , tentative rules , anyway , course , since season entirely , tentative entry form cares \? real hockey season starting ! ! ! ! ! 's deal email \( preferably \) post predictions , number games think series go round weighted , stanley cup finals important , early rounds still important scoring pick 1st round winner , way games 2 points pick 1st round winner , within one game 3 points pick 1st round winner , pick games 5 points pick 2nd round winner , way games 3 points pick 2nd round winner , within one game 4 points pick 2nd round winner , pick games 6 points pick conference champ , way games 5 points pick conference champ , within one game 6 points pick conference champ , pick games 9 points pick stanley cup champ , way games 8 points pick stanley cup champ , within one game 10 points pick stanley cup champ , pick games 14 points pick loser 7 , series goes 7 2 points pick loser 7 , series decided game 7 , ot 4 points \( last two sympathy points , probably wo n't happen anyway \) obviously , picking stanley cup champion important tests see format fair , probably lazy modify , scoring probably like entry forms , well , post getting long , see next post keith keller let's go rangers ! ! ! ! ! let's go quakers ! ! ! ! ! kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs ! ! ! ! want opinion , 'll give
kkeller mail sas upenn edu \( keith keller \) subject entry form playoff pool organization university pennsylvania , school arts sciences lines 43 nntp posting host mail sas upenn edu okay , 's entry sheet keep mind spots decided , may change series pick games division semis ny islanders pittsburgh new jersey washington buffalo boston montreal quebec st louis chicago toronto detroit winnipeg vancouver los angeles calgary division finals patrick adams norris smythe conference finals wales campbell stanley cup winner see previous post scoring good luck ! keith keller let's go rangers ! ! ! ! ! let's go quakers ! ! ! ! ! kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs ! ! ! ! want opinion , 'll give
gandalf ca \( stephane \) subject bridgman organization gandalf data ltd lines 8 senators fired mel bridgman 1 00 pm today randy sexton gonna replace stephane w engineer insert sig gandalf data ltd
nhmas gauss med harvard edu \( mark shneyder 432 4219 \) subject playoff telecasts atlanta organization hms lines 22 nntp posting host gauss med harvard edu article 812 acsu buffalo edu hammerl acsu buffalo edu \( valerie hammerl \) writes 'd personally prefer buffalo boston , birthday gift espn , n't think folks espn accomodate \) espn affinity patrick division , seems first , happy birthday , val second , espn 's affinity patrick probably travel production costs week \( national hockey night \) affair \( espn abc owner , capital cities , company known quite minimal overhead costs 's quite possible jim may working \) gary thorne bill clement nj based rest espn crew resides suburban ct close proximity tri state area plus , makes sense terms solid hockey following northeast corridor \( pa ny nj dc maryland \) whereas , adams 3 american based teams , 2 \( buffalo hartford \) top 20 us tv markets ppv mark
farenebt craft camp clarkson edu \( droopy \) subject ahl season review \( ice stuff \) organization clarkson university lines 114 nntp posting host craft clarkson edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 review ice things affected ahl year st john's maple leafs problems st john 's maple leafs sophomore season plagued problems ice , leafs atlantic division title ice less happy strike public workers forced leafs newfoundland city much last half \( since mid jan \) played home games places like montreal , cornwall charlottetown playoff home games played metro center halifax , ns one got violent workers attacked bus rocked broke windows st john 's memorial stadium despite problems , toronto officials insist leafs return st john 's strike ends senators sold new senators sold peter shipman ottawa senators nhl organization canadian nhl team american ahl affiliate , made clear intend move team somewhere canadian atlantic provinces sale move yet approved ahl head office , expected pass easily general meeting may quote story jack made clear league interested stability ahl franchise accompanied nhl ownership , rather maintaining 56 year history ahl new senators currently serious negotiations charlottetown new brunswick expected move dallas helps hawks stay moncton announcing would pull affiliation moncton , winnipeg jets changed mind jets announced move said would slashing minor league roster 20 something around dozen wanted share existing ahl ihl franchise enter dallas lone stars dallas agreed supply remaining 6 8 players moncton franchise thus keeping hawks new brunswick city deal one year extended three years season ticket base increases 3000 hawks sold 1400 year saint john flames official calgary flames officially signed deal city saint john , nb saint john blue flames play 6200 exhibition center flames still apply expansion ahl expected trouble caps follow jacks maine despite rumors contrary , capitals follow baltimore skipjacks maine current farm team , baltimore skipjacks , announced would move maine become portland pirates much doubt caps would follow announced limited deal portland would supply dozen players including 2 goalies become third team announce limited farm team along moncton capital district islanders ahl game week early january , ahl started game week game , produced , believe , productions , televised across canadian maritimes northeastern us first weeks saw two games week , one canada another us since , one sunday afternoon night games covered shown sportschannel ny ne us , believe , atlantic sports network canada \( i'm sure \) sure playoff games covered utica gone \? syracuse added \? heavy rumors utica devils around next season rumors might headed city city syracuse trying lure ahl might look like next year one option another option northern division southern division adirondack red wings adirondack springfield indians springfield providence bruins providence cd islanders cdi portland pirates hershey binghamton southern division rochester hershey bears hamilton binghamton rangers utica rochester americans hamilton canucks atlantic division utica \( \? \) devils portland st john's atlantic division saint john st john's maple leafs moncton moncton hawks halifax halifax citadels fredericton cape breton oilers cape breton fredericton canadiens charlottetown saint john blue flames charlottetown senators \( move unofficial yet \) bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl ecac contact rec sport hockey go usa hockey ! adirondack red wings , calder cup champs '81 '86 '89 '92 clarkson hockey , ecac tournament champ '66 '91 '93 glens falls high school , division ii ny state champs '90 '91 join ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu congrats clarkson golden knights hockey 1993 ecac champions ! ! !
farenebt logic camp clarkson edu \( droopy \) subject ahl news organization clarkson university lines 43 nntp posting host logic clarkson edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 dallas helps hawks stay moncton announcing would pull affiliation moncton , winnipeg jets changed mind jets announced move said would slashing minor league roster 20 something around dozen wanted share existing ahl ihl franchise enter dallas lone stars dallas agreed supply remaining 6 8 players moncton franchise thus keeping hawks new brunswick city deal one year extended three years season ticket base increases 3000 hawks sold 1400 year saint john flames official calgary flames officially signed deal city saint john , nb saint john blue flames play 6200 exhibition center flames still apply expansion ahl expected trouble caps follow jacks maine despite rumors contrary , capitals follow baltimore skipjacks maine current farm team , baltimore skipjacks , announced would move maine become portland pirates much doubt caps would follow announced limited deal portland would supply dozen players including 2 goalies become third team announce limited farm team along moncton capital district islanders bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl ecac contact rec sport hockey go usa hockey ! adirondack red wings , calder cup champs '81 '86 '89 '92 clarkson hockey , ecac tournament champs '66 '91 '93 glens falls high hockey , ny division ii state champs '90 '91 ahl fans join ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu congrats boston bruins , 1992 93 adams division champions phoenix suns , 1992 93 pacific division champions
j3david sms business uwo ca \( james david \) subject plus minus stat organization university western ontario nntp posting host sms business uwo ca lines 144 post newsgroups rec sport hockey maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) subject plus minus stat organization dept computer science , laurentian university , sudbury , date thu , 15 apr 1993 21 41 29 gmt sms business uwo ca j3david sms business uwo ca \( james david \) writes bryan trottier , denis potvin vicious behind trottier given major perhaps trottier happened behind habs goal recall gainey simply n't head picking puck roger , hell gainey 's skill hockey player \? probert gilmour 's head boards next week , diminish assessment gilmour 's skills \? gilmour taken completely surprise , gainey , yeah , would say doug n't playing technically smart hockey case , claim greg , gainey never made technical mistake absolutely ludicrous later , posting , make reference putting words people 's mouths would suggest last paragraph interpreted one way namely , , along greg , claim gainey never made technical mistake actually read 've written , find make claim soooo , logic serves well , 're contradicting gainey plugger press runs things say stars dynasties start hype pluggers grant fuhr , essa tikkannen , butch goring , bob nystrom , bob gainey , doug jarvis , derek sanderson , wayne cashman , bob baun , bob pulford , ralph backstrom , henri richard , dick duff would take fuhr sanderson latter good 'd displaying ignorance course , roger , i'm sure , think ignorance really function lack knowledge formulating opinion hey , need take cheap shot , means go ahead 's makes feel better think gainey would honoured know 've included think gainey feel honoured know remembered word , poor ol' bob gainey bother much effective player style play list also think relatively naive view wins hockey game pluggers integral part certainly pluggers integral part team simply enough solid two way players go around would rather checking centre \? doug gilmour doug jarvis \? matter would take either gretzky mario checking centres think gretzky could cover bob gainey \? i'm really sorry roger , lost completely n't ask would rather jesus christ , , nets \? , compare , say example , bob gainey guy carbonneau , would balanced comparison team selke designed acknowledge contribution think people understand 's nobel prize settle 're wrong selke awarded forward best job defensively may may best plugger gilmour best defensive job league n't see running simply also contributes i'm wrong hmmm , let 's see wrong first place \? i'm guessing , rog , feeling 've setup 're wrong macro key machine agree use word plugger simplistic think know i'm getting would also like point gilmour 's potential selke winner never part debate asking opinion \? , think far many deserving players include gilmour among candidates settle \? think selke nobel prize suggest best settle going try put words mouth , let suggest settle bother following postings would suggest comment press runs things say stars dynasties start hype pluggers grant fuhr , essa tikkannen , butch goring , bob nystrom , bob gainey , doug jarvis , derek sanderson , wayne cashman , bob baun , bob pulford , ralph backstrom , henri richard , dick duff demonstrates blanket disregard individuals contributors game yes , settle nobody claimed hockey gods congenially , always , jd james david david student business uwo ca might consider developing style , imitation form flattery quite sure flattery intention c'mon nice ring admit , good laugh congenially , always , jd james david david student business uwo ca j3david sms business uwo ca \( james david \) western business school london , ontario
max max maxim rinaco msk su subject test message distribution world organization home reply max maxim rinaco msk su keywords test lines 2 's test message
kfrank magnus acs ohio state edu \( kevin frank \) subject nhl team items nntp posting host top magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 17 live desolate midwest \( far hockey concerned \) sports stores around carry little hockey stuff , except san jose , tampa bay , l , pittsburgh , 're lucky chicago would like know anyone knows , order , phone order stores might able get contact dying real hockey stuff \( hats , shirts , key chains , etc \) teams \( edmonton , montreal , etc \) information , please e mail directly appreciated ! good luck teams stanley cup playoffs ! go edmonton \( likely ! ! \) maybe next year assult someone get 5 years hockey , 5 minutes great sport \? ! kevin frank kfrank magnus acs ohio state edu
brifre1 ac dal ca subject yet crazy predictions organization dalhousie university , halifax , nova scotia , canada lines 36 well goes crazy predictions \( never come true , hey \) adams bos vs buf bos 5 \( hot bruins \) que vs mon que 6 \( best series first round \) patrick pit vs nyi pit 5 \( nyi wins fourth game \) vs njd njd 7 \( upset , possibly ot game 7 \) norris chi vs stl chi 5 \( stl match keenan 's \) det vs tor tor 6 \( clark steps playoffs year \) smythe \( cares \? \) van vs win win 7 \( i'm caught teemu mania , sue ! \) cal vs lak cal 5 \( la sucks ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! imo \) division finals bos vs que bos 7 \( killer games , watch cam shine \) pit vs njd pit 6 \( njd go insane , kill ice , pit wins \) chi vs tor tor 7 \( tor defense finally get together \) cal vs win cal 6 \( win tired 1st series \) conference finals pit vs bos bos 6 \( pit beat njd play \( hope \) \) cal vs tor tor 6 \( vernon turns sieve \) stanley cup bos vs tor tor 7 \( two totally different teams , knows \? dreams come true , pig might one day evolve wings \) feel free laugh predictions , always ! barfly
maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) subject plus minus stat organization dept computer science , laurentian university , sudbury , lines 130 sms business uwo ca j3david sms business uwo ca \( james david \) writes gilmour taken completely surprise , gainey , yeah , would say doug n't playing technically smart hockey case , claim greg , gainey never made technical mistake absolutely ludicrous later , posting , make reference putting words people 's mouths would suggest last paragraph interpreted one way namely , , along greg , claim gainey never made technical mistake actually read 've written , find make claim soooo , logic serves well , 're contradicting nonsense quite clearly state greg made claim gainey never made error made claim read rec sport hockey thu apr 15 21 22 49 1993 gballent hudson uvic ca \( greg ballentine \) message id 1993apr15 sol uvic ca nonsense deleted gainey best defensive forward ever stand assessment good player belongs hall fame ever watch play \? never made technical error nonsense deleted good 'd displaying ignorance course , roger , i'm sure , think ignorance really function lack knowledge formulating opinion hey , need take cheap shot , means go ahead 's makes feel better knowledgeable observers game meaning obvious hockey education responsibility word , poor ol' bob gainey bother much effective player style play another player anything find bothersome hated habs hated realized likely aesthetically pleasing player ever skate lifetime would anyone talk gainey \? go around would rather checking centre \? doug gilmour doug jarvis \? matter would take either gretzky mario checking centres think gretzky could cover bob gainey \? i'm really sorry roger , lost completely n't ask would rather jesus christ , , nets \? play hockey high level \? good \? , would bother bring jc \? talking hockey players ca n't follow conversation n't follow said previously , responsibility educate , compare , say example , bob gainey guy carbonneau , would balanced comparison sure two big deal neither one worth discussing i'm wrong hmmm , let 's see wrong would take fuhr sanderson latter first place \? i'm guessing , rog , feeling 've setup 're wrong macro key machine excellent idea decide waste time responding , greg 's , postings sure implement macro would suggest comment press runs things say stars dynasties start hype pluggers grant fuhr , essa tikkannen , butch goring , bob nystrom , bob gainey , doug jarvis , derek sanderson , wayne cashman , bob baun , bob pulford , ralph backstrom , henri richard , dick duff demonstrates blanket disregard individuals contributors game yes , settle nobody claimed hockey gods tarasov claimed gainey hockey god greg ate thread n't know responding \? blanket disregard individuals , remember leaf teams , purely populated individuals , winning four stanley cups teams one ran around telling us george armstrong best hockey player world congenially , always , jd james david david student business uwo ca might consider developing style , imitation form flattery quite sure flattery intention c'mon nice ring admit , good laugh right get end posting realized complete joke future , going respond postings would appreciate could present cogent argument supported facts gleaned version reality rest us would recognize cordially , always , rm roger maynard maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca
apanjabi guvax acc georgetown edu subject beat pittsburgh ! summary take player distribution world organization georgetown university lines 42 article andrew cmu edu , robert angelo pleshar rp16 andrew cmu edu writes kfnjyea00uh i1vmus andrew cmu edu nntp posting host po5 andrew cmu edu reply kfnjyea00uh i1vmus andrew cmu edu anna matyas could clone chelios 's personality transplant defensemen islanders , capitals , devils gerald words , want turn assholes spend lots time penalty box get lots \? comes chelios fan yeah , also second team scoring play 35 minutes game play power play kill penalties best defenseman league 'd take whole team could \( way , one got penalty others could kill ! \) ralph beat pittsburgh \? \? \? mario lemieux death 1 much 2 slash skull 3 ask rangers \( slashing wrist \? \? \? \? \) ii jaromir jagr deportation 1 send back whatever commie country 's 2 tell bill clinton going iii kevin stevens fighting 1 call bob probert 2 call tie domi 3 call grandmother \( 'd kick ass \)
dale odie cs mun ca \( dale fraser \) subject ahl news st john 's news , part organization cs dept , memorial university newfoundland lines 49 brifre1 ac dal ca writes article 1993apr13 news clarkson edu , farenebt craft camp clarkson edu \( droopy \) writes pete raymond emailed piece info sure game 7 intentionally unintentionally omitted \( ie date set \) bri begin quoted material moncton win friday night halifax eliminated thus st john 's make halifax home first round play offs wil take place dates april 14 halifax metro center \( leafs home game \) april 17 halifax metro center april 21 moncton april 23 moncton april 26 halifax metro center april 30 moncton halifax \( least halifax \) resident 's dream come true ! ! leafs favorite nhl team \( , n't know \) ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! 'd say even better citadels making playoffs \( quebec farm team cares \? \? \) way , nfld fans i'm sure asn carry games \( 'd stupid asn \) n't heard news asn carrying games local cable station st john 's \( cable 9 \) carrying games live ! hey , 's better nothing ! go leafs go ! ! ! dale sex popular dale fraser dale odie cs mun ca easy see memorial university newfoundland contains sodium cs undergrad class '92 's cholesterol free ! shelby friedman blue jays 1992 world series champs ! ! opinions expressed belong institution !
dale odie cs mun ca \( dale fraser \) subject hockey hispanic community organization cs dept , memorial university newfoundland lines 28 icop csa bu edu \( antonio pera \) writes presence new team miami \( ca n't say south florida 's long \) makes think interesting question sell hispanic community hockey \? miami 60 70 hispanic community experience previous exposure hockey know teams ny la also big hispanic groups seem try woo group miami \? could get spanish language tv radio coverage \? think , owners , hockey well miami since lot people northeast spend winters florida every year coverage , someone come money since broadcast rights expensive ! 0 02 ! dale sex popular dale fraser dale odie cs mun ca easy see memorial university newfoundland contains sodium cs undergrad class '92 's cholesterol free ! shelby friedman blue jays 1992 world series champs ! ! opinions expressed belong institution !
monack helium gas uug arizona edu \( david n monack \) subject espn tonight organization university arizona tucson , arizona lines 17 master cs rose hulman edu swartzjh rosevc rose hulman edu writes anyone heard game espn showing tonight said show whatever game means playoff wise would assume would blues tampa game minnesota red wings game anyone heard sure \? \? \? jeff swartz heard minnesota detroit game n't know time though dave david monack e mail monack gas uug arizona edu love delusion one woman differs another h l
richard amc com \( richard wernick \) subject bruins playoffs organization applied microsystems , redmond , wa distribution na lines 19 well bruins fans 's playoff time looks like b 's peaked right time getting adams going cat fight end montreal quebec , teams revenge neely stay healthy , bourque moog stay sharp , get see neely finally take two years frustration ulf \( n't fight \) samuelson n't agree fighting nhl , one guy deserves taken good , 's going good series , go bruins ! ! ! ! richard amc com
j3david sms business uwo ca \( james david \) subject plus minus stat organization university western ontario nntp posting host sms business uwo ca lines 165 post newsgroups rec sport hockey maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) subject plus minus stat organization dept computer science , laurentian university , sudbury , date fri , 16 apr 1993 01 59 36 gmt discussion deleted good 'd displaying ignorance course , roger , i'm sure , think ignorance really function lack knowledge formulating opinion hey , need take cheap shot , means go ahead 's makes feel better knowledgeable observers game meaning obvious hockey education responsibility hockey education \? f talking \? i'm even going try refute absolutely insane statement word , poor ol' bob gainey bother much effective player style play another player anything find bothersome hated habs hated realized likely aesthetically pleasing player ever skate lifetime would anyone talk gainey \? hate habs \? sound like 10 year old statement total inability argue objectively hockey n't give crap cogent arguments 've yet read something cogent consistently argue \( 1 \) emotion \( 2 \) huge , sweeping statements frankly , unconvincing style i'm defending bob gainey frankly , n't care much dismissal something less effective hockey player tiresome basis anything many win \? think four \( go ahead refresh memory \) conn smythe \? fluke \? yeah , hockey superstar , know , try reason , reason , shoot go around would rather checking centre \? doug gilmour doug jarvis \? matter would take either gretzky mario checking centres think gretzky could cover bob gainey \? i'm really sorry roger , lost completely n't ask would rather jesus christ , , nets \? play hockey high level \? good \? , would bother bring jc \? talking hockey players ca n't follow conversation n't follow said previously , responsibility educate hey cowboy ! 're expert introduced idiotic comparison gainey gretzky lemieux figure , compare , say example , bob gainey guy carbonneau , would balanced comparison sure two big deal neither one worth discussing many individual awards \? eight n't remember \( , please feel free refresh memory try sarcastic possible hockey education \) i'm wrong hmmm , let 's see wrong would take fuhr sanderson latter oh god ! ! ! say \? roger 's point \? fuhr goaltender , goaltender 's n't plug prime , one best sanderson stick may well include half flyers team era first place \? i'm guessing , rog , feeling 've setup 're wrong macro key machine excellent idea decide waste time responding , greg 's , postings sure implement macro oh roger , n't really n't deserve far already would suggest comment press runs things say stars dynasties start hype pluggers grant fuhr , essa tikkannen , butch goring , bob nystrom , bob gainey , doug jarvis , derek sanderson , wayne cashman , bob baun , bob pulford , ralph backstrom , henri richard , dick duff demonstrates blanket disregard individuals contributors game yes , settle nobody claimed hockey gods tarasov claimed gainey hockey god greg ate thread n't know responding \? seem allowed players fall sweeping , statement 's want debate gainey , go ahead bring everybody else \? support argument \? argument , like throw around names hoping impress us \? blanket disregard individuals , remember leaf teams , purely populated individuals , winning four stanley cups teams one ran around telling us george armstrong best hockey player world great could n't agree flyers two cups reasons \? n't get angry leafs n't get recognition \? seem think pluggers hyped n't agree plain simple 're last statement sort compromise , fair enough might consider developing style , imitation form flattery quite sure flattery intention c'mon nice ring admit , good laugh right get end posting realized complete joke pleasant bone body , eh rog \? unhappy \? getting invited enough parties \? \? future , going respond postings would appreciate could present cogent argument supported facts gleaned version reality rest us would recognize roger , impression responding posts great honour \? really stop sounds little bit pathetic frankly , 's honourable good fart congenially , always , jd james david j3david student business uwo ca j3david sms business uwo ca \( james david \) western business school london , ontario
farenebt logic camp clarkson edu \( droopy \) subject playoff predictions organization clarkson university lines 39 nntp posting host logic clarkson edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 patrick 1st rd pens isles 4 devils caps 6 2nd pens devils 7 adams 1st rd b 's sabres 5 nords habs 5 2nd b 's nords 6 norris 1st hawks stars blues 5 wings leafs 7 2nd hawks wings 5 smythe 1st jets canucks 7 \( call hunch \) flames kings 5 2nd jets flames 6 wales pens b 's 7 campbell hawks jets 5 stanley pens hawks 5 bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl ecac contact rec sport hockey go usa hockey ! adirondack red wings , calder cup champs '81 '86 '89 '92 clarkson hockey , ecac tournament champs '66 '91 '93 glens falls high hockey , ny division ii state champs '90 '91 ahl fans join ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu congrats boston bruins , 1992 93 adams division champions phoenix suns , 1992 93 pacific division champions
mmb lamar colostate edu \( michael burger \) subject tv schedule next week distribution na nntp posting host lamar acns colostate edu organization colorado state university , fort collins , co 80523 lines 20 united states tv schedule april 18 devils islanders pittsburgh 1 est abc \( eastern time zone \) april 18 st louis chicago 12 cdt abc \( cent mou time zones \) april 18 los angeles calgary 12 pdt abc \( pacific time zone \) april 20 devils islanders pittsburgh 7 30 espn april 22 tba 7 30 espn april 24 tba 7 30 espn somebody would send cbc tsn schedule 'll post well mike burger canada includes , quebec , ontario , mmb lamar colostate edu maritimes , , florida beginning computing ta stud four months year 500 students served royal canadian air farce university michigan 1990 colorado state university 199 \?
steve cs indiana edu subject hockey hispanic community organization lines 11 article c5i2s2 3bt odin corp sgi com rickc wrigley corp sgi com \( richard casares \) writes last time saw hockey league inner city well , actually mention , weeks ago cbc ran documentary ice hockey harlem canadian club new york \( something like \) sponsors league kids harlem based tv report seemed lot fun playing regular equipment , jerseys , etc etc , proper outdoor rink looked like kids playing hockey anywhere else kids even fortunate get trip hockey camp alberta
jrmst8 pitt edu \( joseph r mcdonald \) subject plus minus stat organization university pittsburgh lines 18 article 1993apr15 sol uvic ca gballent vancouver uvic ca writes comes jagr , despite arrogant asshole , good hockey player better season year ron francis jagr points better jagr higher , francis points take informed observer , ronnie francis much better season jaromir jagr take anything away jaro , decent year \( although n't live expectations \) gregmeister dean dean j badges \? badges \? \( using jrmst8 permission n't need owner , joe mcdonald \) badges !
gsu0033 uxa ecn bgu edu \( eric molas \) subject playoff predictions organization educational computing network lines 53 nntp posting host uxa ecn bgu edu 1st round pitt vs nyi pitt 4 wash vs njd wash 6 bos vs buf bos 5 que vs mon mon 7 'd take quebec 6 chi vs stl chi 4 hawks win , take 5 det vs tor det 6 van vs win win 6 cal vs la cal 5 cal 7 2nd round pitt vs wash pitt 4 bos vs mon bos 6 boston beat quebec 6 chi vs det chi 7 win vs cal cal 5 3rd round pitt vs bos pitt 5 pitt 6 bruins chi vs cal chi 5 hawks havent problems year yep , agree finals pitt vs chi pitt 5 unless hawks somehow change fate , 're right knows , though maybe intensive aka normal hawks style seemingly team maybe pens due let hell , could possibly extend record making play way playoffs \? walter damien knight doom 've acquired taste blood adopted lifestyle doesnt mean i'm vampire
fmsalvat eos ncsu edu \( frank michae salvatore \) subject get real caps chance originator fmsalvat 106ps eos ncsu edu reply fmsalvat eos ncsu edu \( frank michae salvatore \) organization north carolina state university , project eos lines 15 article 1993apr15 staff dccs upenn edu , filinuk staff dccs upenn edu \( geoff filinuk \) writes anyone really believes caps beat pens kidding pens may loose one game playoffs let 's honest pens may one game put , definitely lose one game remember , regular season n't mean much comes playoff time caps shot least flyers sure n't frank salvatore fmsalvat eos ncsu edu
\( \) subject individual winners \( doubters \? hmm \? \) nntp posting host td college kstar node net yale edu organization computing information systems , yale university lines 15 article 1993apr15 cci632 cci com , dwk cci632 cci com \( dave \) wrote well , since mentioned article 1993apr12 6300 jarvis csri toronto edu , turing toronto edu \( mike godfrey \) writes lemieux clearly mvp question chip masterson well lemieux masterson \? doubt awe inspiring season , personal records set year \? lemieux hart locked mike gartner masterson \?
jwodzia fadel uucp \( john wodziak \) subject goalie masks reply jwodzia fadel uucp \( john wodziak \) organization clemson university engineering department lines 25 article netnews upenn edu kkeller mail sas upenn edu \( keith keller \) writes vote goes john vanbiesbrouck mask skyline new york city , sides bunch bees \( beezer \) looks really sharp n't also statue liberty richter 's mask \? back actually bee followed z represent beezer also something looks like three circles led 4 album cover supposed \? anybody know would put \? ali \? keith keller let's go rangers ! ! ! ! ! want opinion , 'll give john official language golf profanity hockey hell jwodzia eng clemson edu john r wodziak real black gold 7 alan kulwicki 1954 1993 bean triumph polish yankee mechanical engineer , town crown 1992 winston cup champion great person rocks !
umturne4 ccu umanitoba ca \( daryl turner \) subject pens info needed nntp posting host ccu umanitoba ca organization university manitoba , winnipeg , manitoba , canada lines 19 article 1993apr15 ericsson se etxonss ufsa ericsson se \( staffan axelsson \) writes actually , swedish coach curt thinking leaving two spots open additions eliminated nhlers mats sundin calle johansson curt hopes join team , although late stage tournament technically , seem recall leave spots open 24 hrs wc final hmmm also heard grapevine team finland might try leave spot open least one \( guy named sel nne , ever hear \? \) might content kurri , though , hope \) daryl turner r h contact winnipeg jets internet umturne4 ccu umanitoba ca fidonet 1 348 701 1 348 4 \( please route 348 700 \) tkachuk zhamnov , sel nne , shoots , scores ! jets win cup ! jets win cup ! essensa vezina ! housley norris ! sel nne calder !
chemical watstar uwaterloo ca \( derrick \) subject plus minus stat lines 45 organization university waterloo article 1993apr14 ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) writes maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) subject plus minus stat date wed , 14 apr 1993 17 48 28 gmt dreier berkeley edu dreier berkeley edu \( roland dreier \) writes selanne 's 7 leads jets teppo numminen 4 think better defensively \? ron francis penguins 5 , although 97 points , jaromir jagr 87 points 30 jagr really better defense francis \? exactly interpret fact mario lemieux far highest league \? get selke well ross \? plus minus measure defense alone attempts measure player 's total contribution team effort certainly , far perfect posting never implied otherwise posting suggested better indicator player 's effectiveness , examined context player 's team 's performance , mere scoring totals alone mario getting selke \? doug gilmour , would rather lemieux ice situation \( enforcer , \) player game used call selke bob gainey award came result statement made tarasov bob gainey best hockey player world sure tarasov either misquoted , originally , tiny bit much vodka reporter event , nhl decided honour one dimensional checkers along one scorers maybe league start doug gil award league 's effective , round player cordially , always , rm roger maynard maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca hey , roger maynard award annoying fan \? derrick 34 laurel st , apt 1 waterloo 747
nlu xenon stanford edu \( nelson lu \) subject sharks review part 1 goaltenders organization computer science department , stanford university lines 80 sharks' season came close tonight , start series posts , trying revisit players , trades , moves , etc , went sharks past season , since words sharks review subject heading postings , kill first try evaluate players ratings , course , subject biases , hope try objective possible players finished season sharks play another nhl team season thus , , let 's go goaltenders 1 brian hayward season 11th acquired '91 92 minnesota dispersal draft grade p \( \) sad career come dim end , career featured sharing three jennings trophies \( patrick roy , '87 , '88 , '89 \) would indeed unfair anything give passing grade \( skip letter grading \) , simply awful ice year , save bright spot two , even healthy , would 3rd string goalie hayward classy individual , also figured sharks' first ever victory , 3rd game season last year calgary flames , fans remember good guy 30 jeff hackett season 3rd acquired '91 92 , n islanders expansion draft grade c hackett , \( \) winning team mvp honors last season , simply wasted year good spots \( 57 saves los angeles , almost shutout tampa bay , etc \) , hackett , finishing 85 6 save percentage 5 28 gaa , watched status go team 's 1 goalie bench decoration end season expected , early , carry team along instead , apparently became frustrated , early injury forced miss 12 games may contributing factor , upon return , simply n't task may return next year 31 wade flaherty season 1st \( still eligible rookie \) acquired '91 92 , signed free agent grade \( \) pretty hard evaluate goaltender one game alone , thus incomplete grade , yet one start get \( calgary flames \) , flaherty nothing sharp least two periods started season poorly kansas city , finished strong , prompting owner ron parker comment candidate ihl mvp honors upcoming ihl playoffs would major challenge tries make nhl last year , capable backup arturs irbe throughout season turner cup playoffs , picking star honors along irbe 's time show share job irbe next year , prospects dan , trevor robins , scott cashman coming along , n't make next year , may ever 32 arturs irbe season 1st acquired '91 92 , minnesota dispersal draft grade b may yet overly critical irbe year clearly established 's bona fide nhl goaltender , perhaps bona fide 1 goaltender provided little highlight footage sharks team , getting team 's first ever shut los angeles kings december 26 fearless net , aggressively playing puck making passes , reminding people young ron hextall \( except , course , \) yet still needs develop consistency , hard bad defense front , sharks challenge playoff spot next season , irbe 's key , demonstrated named star game 13 times 32 starts go calgary flames ! al macinnis norris ! gary roberts hart smythe ! go edmonton oilers ! go playoffs next year ! stay edmonton ! nelson lu \( claudius leland stanford edu \) rec sport hockey contact san jose sharks
nmcglynn buffalo axion bt co uk \( neil \) subject british championship playoffs \( 16 apr 93 \) organization bt labs , heath , , uk lines 45 reply nmcglynn axion bt co uk nntp posting host buffalo axion bt co uk organisation bt laboratories , heath , uk group group b cardiff devils 7 3 bracknell bees nottingham panthers 8 3 billingham humberside 7 7 whitley warriors murrayfield racers 11 2 fife flyers whitley bay 6 9 cardiff devils billingham bombers 6 8 murrayfield humberside 8 5 bracknell bees nottingham panthers 11 5 fife flyers cardiff devils 10 4 humberside murrayfield racers 6 4 nottingham bracknell bees 4 9 whitley bay fife flyers 2 5 billingham bracknell bees 3 8 cardiff devils billingham bombers 2 8 nottingham whitley bay 5 7 humberside fife flyers 3 12 murrayfield p w l f p p w l f p cardiff devils 4 4 0 0 34 16 8 murrayfield racers 4 4 0 0 37 15 8 humberside 4 2 1 1 26 27 5 nottingham panthers 4 3 0 1 31 16 6 whitley bay 4 1 1 2 27 27 3 billingham bombers 4 1 0 3 16 26 2 bracknell bees 4 0 0 4 15 32 0 fife flyers 4 0 0 4 12 39 0 indicates qualified championship finals relegation promotion relegation promotion b basingstoke 10 4 swindon sheffield steelers 12 8 peterborough durham wasps 13 5 romford raiders slough jets 1 9 mk kings basingstoke 6 0 durham wasps sheffield steelers 9 4 milton keynes swindon 8 5 romford raiders milton keynes kings 4 6 peterborough durham wasps 17 2 swindon slough jets 2 12 sheffield romford 4 10 basingstoke peterborough 10 2 slough jets romford 8 3 durham wasps peterborough 8 5 sheffield swindon 7 11 basingstoke milton keynes kings 10 4 slough jets p w l f p p w l f p basingstoke 4 4 0 0 37 15 8 sheffield steelers 4 3 0 0 38 22 6 durham wasps 4 2 0 2 33 21 4 peterborough 4 3 0 1 32 23 6 swindon 4 1 0 3 21 43 2 milton keynes kings 4 2 0 2 27 20 4 romford raiders 4 1 0 3 22 34 2 slough jets 4 0 0 4 9 41 0 neil 44 473 nmcglynn axion bt co uk british telecom laboratories , heath , , uk
cdkaupan eos ncsu edu \( carl david kaupang \) subject stop predicting originator cdkaupan 106ps eos ncsu edu reply cdkaupan eos ncsu edu \( carl david kaupang \) organization north carolina state university , project eos lines 10 really annoying see predictions net really cares think win \? please stop predictions , know caps going win cup , let go david kaupang cdkaupan eos ncsu edu
mikkot romulus math jyu fi \( mikko tarkiainen \) subject pens info needed nntp posting host romulus math jyu fi organization university jyvaskyla , finland lines 32 article m3 ccu umanitoba ca umturne4 ccu umanitoba ca \( daryl turner \) writes hmmm also heard grapevine team finland might try leave spot open least one \( guy named sel nne , ever hear \? \) might content kurri , though , hope \) true , coach ready keep spot teemu way medal games wants teppo numminen , kurri , spots cannot left open long esa tikkanen already even without players think pretty good team young , hungry , talented guys , old players got everything \( except gold \) yesterday 's practise game , swe fin 6 6 , shows two world 's best hockey teams \) prime shape finn line riihijarvi \( slightly injured \) saarikoski bet two teams best nhl , roger , roger \? people think team canada lindros , brind'amour , burke , ranford , recchi , dineen \? beat finns \? coaching news alpo suhonen \( ex jets \) jokerit \( verified \) , boris majorov \( ex jokerit \) tappara , vasili tichonov \( ex assat \) san jose sharks \( assistant coach \) , sakari lulea \( silver team elite \) fw mikko makela \( ex tps \) malmo g markus ketterer \( jokerit \) still contract fw timo saarikoski jokerit , watch next week
voecking informatik tu muenchen de \( volker voecking \) subject expanding europe dusseldorf originator voecking informatik tu muenchen de organization technische universitaet muenchen , germany lines 29 article 1993apr15 abo fi , mlindroos finabo abo fi \( marcus lindroos inf \) writes pkortela lk hp 17 hut fi pkortela snakemail hut fi writes deg many german born forwards team fact majority players german born 1992 93 deg average spectator arena interesting ! one german friends \( robert \? \) told forwards canadian germans perhaps somebody sort us \? far know dusseldorf one canadian german forward \( e player born canada german passport \) benoit became german german going play germany wc canada born forwards peter john lee \( british passport \) chris valentine dale steve earl \( \? \) moment three german born forwards coming mind , andreas , ernst volker
vipunen hut fi \( \) subject suhonen go jokerit keywords suhonen nntp posting host vipunen hut fi organization helsinki university technology , finland lines 17 tvartiai vipunen hut fi tvartiai vipunen hut fi \( tommi vartiainen \) writes according inside information , alpo suhonen wo n't next jokerit 's pretty sure boris majorov continue , although owner team previously said chance coach tommi wrong information announced suhonen made deal jokerit tommi boris majorov made 1 1 year deal tappara
montana pinetree org \( david wong \) subject hockey playoff pool last chance ! keywords hockey playoff pool last chance ! organization gordon 's pinetree ottawa , ontario , canada lines 66 last post \( promotion \) hockey pool update pool \( try \) every wednesday subject please join hockey playoff pool deadline pool midnight saturday rules read cost none prizes none send replies montana pinetree org note entries send midnight saturday accepted please include name rules acme hockey playoff pool pick 9 forwards \( long forwards lw rw c okay \) pick 6 defensemen \( arrange lines , 3 forwards two defense 1 line \( arranged line order , players would \( play first line plays second line pick 1 designated \( positions try defensemen \) pick 1 designated scorer \( positions \) pick 1 goal tender pick team \( one think may win cup \) note players chosen ! ie cannot sakic forward designated passer calculation points \( except designated scorer \) 1 assist 1 pt ixi 1 goal 1 pt ii \( players line 1 , pt totals 2 \) line 1 pts 2 line 2 pts 1 5 line 3 pts 1 1 win 2 pt \( goalies \) team wins cup 10 pts designated designated calculation follows scorer goal 3 pts every goal scored 0 5 points assists 0 5 pts every assists 2 points event tie , tie broken unmodified goal totals game winning goals sample eg designated scorer jeremy roenick actual g 12 , 10 , pts 22 modified g \( 12 3 \) \( 10 0 5 \) 41 designated steve smith actual g 1 , 11 , pts 12 modified g \( 1 0 5 \) \( 11 2 \) 22 5 line 1 j murphy \( 24 \) g courtnall \( 14 \) messier \( 14 \) dave manson \( 12 \) iafrate \( 7 \) total points 142 points line ! internet montana pinetree org \( david wong \) uucp pinetree ! montana gordon 's pinetree ottawa , , canada 1 613 526 v 32bis v 42bis
klaava helsinki fi \( \) subject plus minus stat organization university helsinki lines 24 1993apr16 ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) writes good 'd displaying ignorance course , roger , i'm sure , think ignorance really function lack knowledge formulating opinion hey , need take cheap shot , means go ahead 's makes feel better knowledgeable observers game meaning obvious hockey education responsibility curious , roger , since vast knowledge game league , come n't made living \? must lot demand expertise field i'm sure 'd great help , say , leafs assistant coach scout maybe try career reporter tv commentator might wrong , course , already cc helsinki fi university helsinki
etxonss ufsa ericsson se \( staffan axelsson \) subject sweden finland , april 15 nntp posting host uipc104 ericsson se organization ericsson telecom , stockholm , sweden lines 119 played , gothenburg , april 15 1993 sweden finland 6 6 \( 1 2 , 3 1 , 2 3 \) 1st swe 1 0 peter popovic \( markus naslund \) 6 10 fin 1 1 ville siren \( keijo sailynoja \) 8 44 \( pp \) fin 1 2 juha riihijarvi \( timo saarikoski , vesa \) 13 12 \( pp \) 2nd fin 1 3 jari korpisalo \( kari , \) 6 48 swe 2 3 jan larsson \( mikael renberg , stefan nilsson \) 7 25 swe 3 3 hakan ahlund \( thomas rundqvist \) 8 56 swe 4 3 roger \( roger \) 9 13 3rd swe 5 3 stefan nilsson \( patrik juhlin , charles \) 2 20 fin 5 4 keijo sailynoja 9 23 fin 5 5 keijo sailynoja 9 44 \( ps \) swe 6 5 mikael renberg \( hakan ahlund , thomas rundqvist \) 17 16 fin 6 6 jari korpisalo 17 44 shots goal penalties attendance referee sweden 8 10 10 28 5 2min 6 , 799 peter andersson finland 12 10 11 33 6 2min , 1 \( sweden \) sweden opened scoring markus naslund made drop pass finnish blue line , popovic picked advanced towards finnish goal shot nice hard wrist shot ketterer 's top corner ville siren 's slap shot blue line power play made 1 1 , juha riihijarvi scored nice goal another power play close front goal put puck high aslin , 1 2 first period finns started second period really good pressure korpisalo made 1 3 another goal close range high aslin , finnish pressure , sweden turned game around 1 47 mikael renberg worked hard behind finnish goal , passed puck jan larsson front , puck low , 2 3 rundqvist entered finnish zone passed ahlund , finnish defense let ahlund skate take shot ketterer dropped goal , 3 3 next , roger behind goal sent puck back blue line roger took slap shot ketterer n't see puck since traffic front , 4 3 third period started nice goal stefan shadow nilsson stefan patrik juhlin entered finnish zone , patrik passed puck back stefan alone ketterer made mistake , 5 3 , keijo sailynoja show started reduce lead 21 seconds ! first scored 5 4 goal , came alone aslin tripped aslin get penalty shot sailynoja made nice penalty shot , showed put low backhand shot swedes seemed head win mikael renberg scored 6 5 goal late game nice power play combination renberg waited slot , showed wanted puck backhand side , ahlund passed puck renberg took turnaround shot low ketterer 's goal 's far side jari korpisalo plans 28 seconds later scored game 's final goal make 6 6 korpisalo took slap shot narrow angle maybe aslin saved , decent game defense n't best teams around lines bit second third period try combinations renberg rundqvist plays well together swedish team larsson nilsson juhlin best line overall , seems working wc line stillman good defense players n't good enough wc though hakan ahlund \( och ! \) , roger , , kenny jonsson likely leave nhl pros two goal scorers jari korpisalo keijo sailynoja played well finnish team markus ketterer n't good game , 've seen lot better , probably finland 's starting goalie wc heard esa tikkanen join finnish team would inter resting know pros coach counts wc starting lines sweden finland 35 peter aslin 30 markus ketterer 8 kenneth 2 mikko 14 fredrik stillman 3 ville siren 10 hakan ahlund 28 jarkko varvio 9 thomas rundqvist 40 mika nieminen 29 mikael renberg 18 keijo sailynoja 27 roger 4 erik 7 arto 8 kari 20 jan larsson 25 4 stefan nilsson 26 petri 5 patrik juhlin 14 jari korpisalo 3 peter popovic 5 timo 32 stefan larsson 44 11 roger 24 juha riihijarvi 33 fredrik nilsson 22 timo saarikoski 24 peter 11 vesa 6 pasi 12 19 markus naslund 29 juha 21 peter forsberg 27 timo 18 jonas bergqvist 17 marko palo played parts game 22 charles 15 mika 6 kenny jonsson 16 saku koivu 20 marko palo \( \( staffan axelsson etxonss ufsa ericsson se \) \) r h contact swedish hockey
mlindroos finabo abo fi \( marcus lindroos inf \) subject finland sweden vs nhl teams \( helsinki stockholm nhl expansion \) reply tervio katk helsinki fi 's message thu , 15 apr 1993 09 39 37 gmt organization abo akademi university , finland x news reader vms news 1 24 lines 120 tervio 40 katk helsinki fi tervio katk helsinki fi writes two teams merged \( proposed tampere \( lynx \) tappara \( axe \) fans would n't take ! rather see teams playoffs time even relegated merged 's difficult understand , 's like helsinki grow either jokerit fan team last team world would support i'm talking extremely deeply rooted rivalry deeply rooted rivalry \? ahem , jokerit around since 1967 joined top flight early '70s around since 1897 fans started taking hockey seriously 1960s think 're however , 's proved fan groups cheer team 's finnish national team maybe 's could set huge franchise finland one ever said team must called one city play games one arena one team finland team sweden nhl would n't make sense way talent 1 24th total north american talent couple seasons would never see cup going anywhere outside nordic \( teams would advantage drafting local talent , \) 's rather bold claim , light successful canadian american olympic teams 've play according set rules international ice 1992 olympic teams contained much talent average expansion team canada eric lindros , sean burke , joe juneau chris another four five deep subs nhl yanks , keith tkachuk , scott lachance , bret hedican , shawn mceachern , steve , ted donato , joe sacco bill guerin 3rd 4th line players nhl , robb stauber done well kings goal nothing fact , i'm sure star team assembled best finnish league teams would better nhl hartford tampa bay currently happens top class finnish swedish players gradually end helsinki stockholm north american based ones gradually retire canadian american team allowed draft new players scandinavia \? hockey news scouts think nhl based players \( 28 30 superstar \) \( 23 27 star \) \( 18 22 nhl regular \) \( 13 17 nhl regular \) \( 8 12 role player \) finland jyrki lumme 20 teppo numminen 20 peter ahola 13 c jari kurri 25 c christian ruuttu 16 r teemu selanne 27 l esa tikkanen 20 \( obviously , selanne 's ratings would higher today january \) sweden ulf samuelsson 21 fredrik olausson 20 lidstrom 18 calle johansson 18 kjell samuelsson 17 tommy sjodin 13 tommy 7 c mats sundin 26 c thomas steen 18 r thomas sandstrom 22 r ulf dahlen 18 r michael nylander 13 l per erik eklund 18 l johan garpenlov 16 l mikael andersson 15 l jan 14 would interesting clearly , finland 's top five players \( winnipeg 's selanne numminen , vancouver 's lumme , los jari kurri new york 's tikkanen \) right five man unit pittsburgh co doubts home based finnish players national team well canada cup world championships largely due efforts markus ketterer \( goalie \) , 3 4 players listed luck 's presumably lot decent players finland would n't superstars highest level still valuable role players , however guess would finnish canada cup team would 500 team nhl sweden easier judge players north america points total \( 16 players \) 274 seven ottawa 's 22 top players combined ! estimate six nhl regulars back home sweden , swedish team would assemble 350 360 skill points points pittsburgh , ny rangers teams rely swedish players , swedish team would finish sixth place high boston , vancouver , calgary montreal paper ! , dynasty talk n't completely unfounded finnish swedish team might advantage players would playing home half time , wo n't adapt foreign country foreign language , presumably play wide open european variant hockey rather learn north american checking game however , free agency becomes factor top scandinavian players still might end playing large market teams couple years way edmonton 's dynasty late '80s fringe players likely drafted nhl teams exclusive talent pool might bit unfair 'd settle compromise , prohibit european teams signing north american first two rounds allow keep top two players , amateur draft open anyone j j j k e r ! ! ! finland czech final b r u n p w e r ! ! ! bruins blackhawks 6 marcu
ayari loria fr \( ayari iskander \) subject nhlpa poll \( stats 3rd \) organization crin inria lorraine lines 54 3rd standings poll 39 votes 5 points 1st , 4 2nd , 1 point 5th ea nhlpa game 1 det 102 2 chi 97 3 ny 74 4 van 73 5 mtl 69 6 pit 33 7 wsh 29 8 bos 21 9 asw 16 10 cgy 10 11 que 9 12 8 13 wpg 7 14 la 5 5 stl 5 tor 5 18 buf 3 phi 3 3 21 sj 2 22 min 1 atlanta win turner cup 1 \( game , 1 person vote \) 24 edm 0 0 li 0 nj 0 4 teams point continue send votes format \( april 20th , approximately \) 1 2 3 4 5 keywords email iskander ayari loria fr ou ayari loria fr
acc admin stolaf edu \( mad dog \) subject truly sad day hockey organization st olaf college , mn lines 19 fine 26 year history came close tonight , minnesota north stars , norm 's stars \( whichever prefer \) lost red wings score 5 3 stars goals scored mike mcphee ulf dahlen , two including final one franchise history , less minute play tonight , air stars tv telecast , announcer al shaver , voice north stars , stated basically follow team dallas shaver , asked son \( broadcast \) , \? responded , first i'm going get new pair slippers i'm going sit easy chair watch world go thank north stars , thank al shaver , 26 years minnesota memories joel
pkortela snakemail hut fi \( petteri kortelainen \) subject new finnish star born \? organization helsinki university technology , finland lines 22 distribution inet nntp posting host lk hp 17 hut fi reply hahietanen tnclus tele nokia fi 's message thu , 15 apr 1993 09 40 41 gmt article 1993apr15 1 tnclus tele nokia fi hahietanen tnclus tele nokia fi writes saw yesterday tv game team sweden team finland us might know played stockholm result 4 3 home team 's nothing special surprised saku koivu must admit surprised already finnish playoffs team finland ! saku koivu light weight player , consider size according stats ! 18 ! \( 23 11 74 \) real two way player ! skates well , score , gives nice passes , even ! ! \? really something watch wc size n't always everything maybe remember say saku still growing \( last year \) saku n't small longer guess heard tall moment still grow 6 petteri kortelainen
pkortela snakemail hut fi \( petteri kortelainen \) subject helsinki stockholm nhl expansion \? organization helsinki university technology , finland lines 20 distribution inet 6j3 polaris utu fi 1993apr15 abo fi nntp posting host lk hp 17 hut fi reply mlindroos finabo abo fi 's message thu , 15 apr 1993 09 56 53 gmt article 1993apr15 abo fi mlindroos finabo abo fi \( marcus lindroos inf \) writes 6j3 polaris utu fi polaris utu fi writes low perhaps , surely high european nhl division finnish team , example , would contain players currently national team plus top class foreigner two would entirely different league tps jokerit , perhaps dozen players international class even settle minor league could best \? many players international class average nhl team 6 10 \? top players play smaller rinks quality european hockey really poor , recent years north american \( usually good farm players \) players got place finnish league elitserien , shipped back petteri kortelainen
stamber rainbow ecn purdue edu \( kevin l stamber \) subject radio stations organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 31 article ragraca vela acs oakland edu , ragraca vela acs oakland edu \( randy graca \) writes greanias texas mitre org \( steve greanias \) writes cable nights caps n't play , would like tune games anyone list radio stations broadcast games nhl teams \? thanks advance give couple detroit , wjr \( 760 \) broadcasting least first couple games wings toronto series , since broadcast watts , may able pick dark pittsburgh penguins games used broadcast kdka 1020 , n't know whether pre empted baseball \( moved another station \) try local baseball teams n't playing time , anyway randy kdka first rights pirates games , split probably 50 50 conflicts penguins games , check 102 5 wdve fm \( 's right , dve \) also 50 , 000 watts kevin l stamber purdue university funny sig today
cybernet cse fau edu \( jim \) subject new franchise name organization cybernet bbs , boca raton , florida lines 31 new name florida panthers panther endangered species , mostly located couple years ago , license plates made panthers \( part revenue go protection fund \) name new president panthers announced today yesterday 's paper , huizenga 's new hockey team take ice miami arena fall team guaranteed two year lease arena , four one year options could run 1999 's choice , james , lawyer huizenga aid said ruling arena long term option nhl told us ca n't stay 's economically feasible one reason miami heat basketball team controls advertising revenue arena , reducing hockey team 's profit potential hockey team attracting arena site proposals broward , , palm beach counties leading site vacant land near joe robbie stadium , residents 10 days ago agreed drop opposition hockey arena , ending eight year battle wills compliments news sun sentinel jim g fitz
cybernet cse fau edu \( jim \) subject panther 's president organization cybernet bbs , boca raton , florida lines 46 promised , would give name panther 's president huizenga announced team name , announced bill torrey named first president panthers little bio sun sentinel torrey , architect four consecutive stanley cup champions general manager new york islanders throughout 27 years nhl , bill torrey 's bow ties become much signature andre 's hair panthers introduce uniform , insignia , ticket price information early next month meantime , huizenga leaves day day operation hands torrey bob clarke , vp gm florida panthers chosen name south florida 's nhl team focus attention endangered species 30 50 florida panthers national park , big cypress national preserve parts southwestern florida panther quickest striking cats , torrey said hopefully 's way 'll play ice bio torrey , huizenga first man hired expansion islanders 1972 one responsible guiding islanders four consecutive stanley cup championships \( first eight seasons \) 14 consecutive winning seasons executive vice president california golden seals , torrey watched seals go play offs 1968 , second nhl season guess completes personal hat trick , said torrey , 58 , native montreal resident bear lakes country club palm beach jim g accounts sol cse fau edu cybernet cse fau edu repeat stress repeat stress repeat stress repeat stress repeat adrian ,
lli cs cmu edu \( lori iannamico \) subject pens playoff radio coverage \( radio stations \) keywords kdka , wdve , kbl nntp posting host lli mach cs cmu edu organization school computer science , carnegie mellon lines 42 article ragraca vela acs oakland edu ragraca vela acs oakland edu \( randy graca \) writes greanias texas mitre org \( steve greanias \) writes give couple detroit , wjr \( 760 \) broadcasting least first couple games wings toronto series , since broadcast watts , may able pick dark pittsburgh penguins games used broadcast kdka 1020 , n't know whether pre empted baseball \( moved another station \) try local baseball teams n't playing time , anyway according morning 's post gazette pens carried kdka radio \( 1020 \) , unless pirates playing pirates play , games carried wdve \( 102 5 fm \) wdve carry 12 games , starting tonight 's game fact , season , kdka longer flagship station pens penguins kbl struck new deal regarding tv radio rights games seems likely wdve flagship radio station next season kbl carry 62 games tv , 17 games kdka tv remaining 22 games , well early round playoff games , available subscription tv receive games , 'll pay one time hook fee , monthly fee 11 12 dollars also , new deal , longer radio tv tv broadcast team , radio broadcast team word announcers mike lange paul steigerwald contract kdka , contracts expire end season kbl president bill craig said 'd like hire lange steigerwald lori contact penguins lli cs cmu edu
robert angelo pleshar rp16 andrew cmu edu subject wirtz weenie organization university libraries e library , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 12 nntp posting host po5 andrew cmu edu 's deal bill wirtz \? apparently , blackhawks st louis game standing room sell usual , hawks reported 16 , 199 gee , wonder wirtz planning use justification continuing keep home games tv \? tv news , penguins announced yesterday 3 fewer broadcast tv games , 22 \( ! \) games sort subscription pay per view system yuck ralph
jwh sei cmu edu \( john huber \) subject nhl team captains organization software engineering institute lines 27 article 1993apr19 iastate edu , iastate edu \( cire trehguad \) writes anna matyas \( am2x andrew cmu edu \) wrote michael collingridge writes , subject , captain ever traded , resigned , striped title season \? team captain trivia would appreciated n't ron francis captain whalers traded pittsburgh \? rick captain flyers traded pens recently course , mike ramsey \( one time \) captain buffalo prior traded pittsburgh currently , penguins 3 former captains 1 real captain \( lemieux \) playing rotate 's season \( even c mario \) even troy loney worn c pens jay john w huber , jr aka jay penguins 1991 , 1992 stanley cup champions software engineering institute pirates 1990 , 1991 , 1992 nl east champions sei \( 412 \) 268 boat skiing
seth cbnewsh cb att com \( peter r clark jr \) subject thumbs espn organization distribution na keywords espn , detroit , toronto , hockey coverage lines 16 article 1993apr20 032017 5783 wuecl wustl edu , jca2 cec1 wustl edu \( joseph charles achkar \) writes nice see espn show game 1 wings leafs since cubs astros got rained instead showing another baseball game , decided stanley cup playoffs classy move espn , leave room 100 times said night baseball games \? every break took back studio mentioned , followed 'so 're gonna show hockey instead ' wife hoping rain every baseball game feed tommorrow night point , glad showed hockey , baseball available anywhere else bet would 've watched baseball last night pete clark
subject travesty joe louis caldwell8102 mtroyal ab ca organization mount royal college , calgary , alberta lines 17 \( detroit , april 19 \) development shocked knowledgable observers , detroit redwings scored less six goals best goaltender world en route 6 3 win best team nhl , toronto maple leafs leafs could faulted , completely dominated inferior detroit squad clearly deserved win biased officiating andy van hellemond idiots insisted upon throwing octopus ice every obvious attempt superior visiting side prevented massacre wings league 's best team alan p sweet , roger sweet look forward next wednesday night trust ,
subject picks first \? caldwell8102 mtroyal ab ca organization mount royal college , calgary , alberta lines 11 article 1993apr17 epas toronto edu , sclark epas utoronto ca \( susan clark \) writes according fan , ottawa daigle e n't mention , san jose goals sen , hunch ottawa would pick first i'm mistaken , san jose wins ottawa first tiebreaker nhl always wins alan
ccohen pitt edu \( caleb n cohen \) subject abc coverage distribution usa lines 22 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 anna matyas \( am2x andrew cmu edu \) wrote antonio pera writes loved abc coverage production excellent appearance excellent modern look first time heard thorne clement thought great request leave al annoys skeptical game pleasantly surprised coverage particularly impressed close range camera coverage work corners behind play without losing beat getting back puck boy everyone ripping espn 's hockey coverage \( 's thrilled lange steigy \? \) unaware espn bought air time abc production , advertising sales , , etc even reaped made enjoy , caleb
ere umontreal ca \( michel \) subject looking boxscores organization universite de montreal distribution na lines 5 looking 84 boxscores nhl team personal research someone help \? michel
maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) subject div conf names organization dept computer science , laurentian university , sudbury , distribution na lines 50 1993apr19 newshub ists ca dchhabra stpl ists ca \( deepak chhabra \) writes however , aside , real question whether like idea changing names based reasons given \( making easier \) , whether like idea unique divisional names based individuals deserve honour imo , latter nice unique touch differs sports addition , think changing divisional names effect number people interested hockey , 's pointless exercise anyway several problems way game presented fans feel geographical names would enhance regional loyalties names honouring personages course , would appear nearly confusing one approaching sport first time another thing bothers points system percentages , used major sports clearly informative look nhl standings first thing make quick calculation account games hand \( almost always case \) object percentages , claiming perhaps , sport feel using percentages informative whether american irrelevant current names inappropriate , separate issue , central original article something consider additionally whether players like orr glory would able without organized professional league play case , honouring builders league opposed builders sport becomes chicken egg type question \( although chicken \) even orr could n't contributed without likes norris , would agree norris could n't contributed without likes orr taking poll fans would quickly tell fans feel made meaningful contribution exactly true naming divisions trophies smythe bunch kind put stein hall fame always thought nonsense dunno stein comparison justifiable , since n't look though hall hold n't look division names going hold either \? cordially , always , maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca many morons rm little time
scott marks launchpad unc edu \( scott marks \) subject nhl team captains nntp posting host lambada oit unc edu organization university north carolina extended bulletin board service lines 18 course , mike ramsey \( one time \) captain buffalo prior traded pittsburgh currently , penguins 3 former captains 1 real captain \( lemieux \) playing rotate 's season \( even c mario \) even troy loney worn c pens heard \( perhaps incorrectly \) lemieux , noone wore c jersey took turns captain duties \( whatever \) scott scott marks launchpad unc edu scott marks launchpad unc edu opinions expressed necessarily university north carolina chapel hill , campus office information technology , experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu 152 2 22 80
steveg cadkey com \( steve gallichio \) subject nhl team captains organization cadkey , inc lines 28 nntp posting host access digex net anna matyas \( am2x andrew cmu edu \) wrote n't ron francis captain whalers traded pittsburgh \? still , imho , ranks time greatest pr blunder \( mention ice blunder \) whalers ever committed , gm eddie johnston coach rick ley francis incapable leader stripped captain 's c december 1990 whole organization \( read ej ley , default owner richard gordon much dupe know much blind sided ej \) dumped francis season , starting refusing sign new contract , publicly humiliating , stripping c , trading spring penguins classy guy , ej loss francis \( lesser extent , ulf \) , one series player moves ej stripped personality fan awareness team put position today gratuitous good ej note organization acquired verbeek , cassels , sanderson , poulin , nylander , etc stripped roster lay foundation sg \( real live hartford whalers season ticket holder \) steveg cadkey com
steveg cadkey com \( steve gallichio \) subject average player nhl organization cadkey , inc lines 41 nntp posting host access digex net , interrupt regularly scheduled news reading bring another message sponsored department really mundane statistics passed final individual player stats posted day filter average games , goals , assists , points , penalty minutes mythical average nhl pro played league season \( \? 's monday n't feel like writing real code \) anyway , wiped 60 odd goalies list , came nhl average 55 gp 11 g 19 30 pts 69 pim passed list second time come players smallest percentage difference categories marty \( nyi \) 56 gp \( 1 \) 10 g \( 9 \) 20 \( 5 \) 30 pts \( 0 \) 24 pim \( 65 \) igor kravchuk \( edm \) 55 gp \( 0 \) 10 g \( 9 \) 17 \( 10 \) 27 pts \( 9 \) 27 pim \( 53 \) two close games , goals , assists , points , far pim leaves , average player nhl bobby carpenter \( \) 65 gp \( 18 \) 11 g \( 0 \) 17 \( 10 \) 28 pts \( 6 \) 63 pim \( 8 \) honor also passed list goalies still included kravchuk carpenter still top three , rob came flying behind take title nhl average 53 gp 10 g 17 27 pts 64 pim igor kravchuk \( edm \) 55 gp \( 3 \) 10 g \( 0 \) 17 \( 0 \) 27 pts \( 0 \) 27 pim \( 50 \) bobby carpenter \( \) 65 gp \( 22 \) 11 g \( 10 \) 17 \( 0 \) 28 pts \( 3 \) 63 pim \( 1 \) rob \( tb \) 54 gp \( 1 \) 9 g \( 9 \) 15 \( 11 \) 24 pts \( 11 \) 62 pim \( 3 \) 's really kind think sg , back regularly scheduled programming
steveg cadkey com \( steve gallichio \) subject nhl team milwaukee organization cadkey , inc lines 38 nntp posting host access digex net charlie betz \( romulus cray com \) writes reading reports possible nhl moves milwaukee milwaukee nhl team , thought 'd pass along story heard recently second hand , n't know true , reason doubt either bradley center milwaukee home milwaukee admirals minor hockey team owner admirals \( sorry , ca n't remember name \) either owns least shelled majority funds build bradley center lloyd supposedly approached nhl expansion franchise , turned thought franchise fee 50 million high like said , n't know whether story true rumor , 's true , n't look nhl team milwaukee anytime soon admirals n't going forced building wo n't see nhl club minor league club building , especially since nba 's milwaukee bucks play well yes , true refused buy franchise nhl 50m time reason established market teams much less felt one would pay 50m expansion team , would simply wait buy existing franchise less market fooled , 5 teams created 50m apiece last three years , even existing teams ca n't moved less 50m doubt could get one little lost 'll pay sg
steveg cadkey com \( steve gallichio \) subject possible canadian wc team \? organization cadkey , inc lines 14 nntp posting host access digex net point team canadian nhlers playoff bound centers geoff sanderson , hartford sanderson team canada , 'd position center although drafted center played rookie , sanderson scored 46 goals season left wing sg
steveg cadkey com \( steve gallichio \) subject wc 93 results , april 18 organization cadkey , inc lines 19 nntp posting host access digex net gerald olchowy \( golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \) writes podein interesting case eligible play cape breton ahl playoffs like kovalev , zubov , andersson obviously sather pocklington total everyone makes certainly case 've massively paramount new york rangers policy regarding players minor league playoffs versus wc \? know rangers holding back kovalev , zubov , andersson binghamton , also know whalers wanted michael nylander play springfield , nylander wanted play sweden whalers allowed nhl decide , nhl chose wcs differ rangers oilers \? whalers go league , could forced nylander play springfield \? sg
steveg cadkey com \( steve gallichio \) subject tie breaker \( isles devils \) organization cadkey , inc lines 18 nntp posting host access digex net rex wang \( wangr vccsouth22 rpi edu \) forth stupidly people stupid \? \? \? tie breaker , cause record people sooooo stuppid put win first list tie breaker \? \? \? tie breaker , different record \? \? \? \? man , thought people net good hockey might great math , tell two teams ahve points different record \? \? \? man retard ! ! ! ! ! ! ca n't believe people actually put win first tie breaker please please please tell n't actually attend rensselaer , work cheek mean cutting alumni contributions , increasing \? sg
odin control utoronto ca \( gary leung \) subject nhl team captains organization university toronto , systems control group lines 20 article 1993apr20 samba oit unc edu scott marks launchpad unc edu \( scott marks \) writes course , mike ramsey \( one time \) captain buffalo prior traded pittsburgh currently , penguins 3 former captains 1 real captain \( lemieux \) playing rotate 's season \( even c mario \) even troy loney worn c pens think mike foligno captain sabres got traded leafs also , n't rick vaive captain leafs got traded chicago \( steve thomas ed someone \) speaking leafs , believe darryl sittler captain \( 'd torn c jersey think claimed captaincy later \) traded flyers oh yeah , course , gretzky captain oilers traded n't \? gary
c5ff jupiter sun csd unb ca \( cook charlie \) subject nhl summary parse results games played mon , april 19 , 1993 organization university new brunswick lines 79 toronto 1 1 1 3 detroit 1 4 1 6 first period 1 , detroit , yzerman 1 \( gallant , ciccarelli \) 4 48 2 , toronto , cullen 1 \( clark , gill \) 10 44 second period 3 , detroit , sheppard 1 \( probert , coffey \) pp , 5 04 4 , detroit , burr 1 \( racine \) sh , 6 42 5 , detroit , chiasson 1 \( coffey \) pp , 11 00 6 , detroit , howe 1 \( yzerman , drake \) 14 46 7 , toronto , gilmour 1 \( borschevsky , ellett \) pp , 19 59 third period 8 , detroit , racine 1 \( primeau , drake \) 5 10 9 , toronto , lefebvre 1 \( cullen , pearson \) 7 45 detroit 6 power play 6 2 special goals pp 2 sh 1 total 3 scorer g pts burr 1 0 1 chiasson 1 0 1 ciccarelli 0 1 1 coffey 0 2 2 drake 0 2 2 gallant 0 1 1 howe 1 0 1 primeau 0 1 1 probert 0 1 1 racine 1 1 2 sheppard 1 0 1 yzerman 1 1 2 toronto 3 power play 5 1 scorer g pts borschevsky 0 1 1 clark 0 1 1 cullen 1 1 2 ellett 0 1 1 gill 0 1 1 gilmour 1 0 1 lefebvre 1 0 1 pearson 0 1 1 winnipeg 1 0 1 2 vancouver 2 0 2 4 first period 1 , vancouver , adams 1 \( linden , bure \) pp , 1 23 2 , vancouver , craven 1 \( bure , murzyn \) 9 56 3 , winnipeg , steen 1 \( shannon , housley \) pp , 17 53 second period scoring third period 4 , winnipeg , king 1 \( barnes \) 3 43 5 , vancouver , linden 1 \( courtnall , mclean \) 12 16 6 , vancouver , ronning 1 \( courtnall \) 18 31 vancouver 4 power play 6 1 scorer g pts adams 1 0 1 bure 0 2 2 courtnall 0 2 2 craven 1 0 1 linden 1 1 2 mclean 0 1 1 murzyn 0 1 1 ronning 1 0 1 winnipeg 2 power play 3 1 scorer g pts barnes 0 1 1 housley 0 1 1 king 1 0 1 shannon 0 1 1 steen 1 0 1
unixg ubc ca \( william \) subject travesty joe louis organization university british columbia , vancouver , b c , canada lines 12 nntp posting host unixg ubc ca article 1993apr20 mtroyal ab ca caldwell8102 mtroyal ab ca writes \( detroit , april 19 \) development shocked knowledgable observers , detroit redwings scored less six goals best goaltender world en route 6 3 win best team nhl , toronto maple leafs , i'm mistaken detroit scored 4 goals first five shots net looks like toronto 's cream cheese run continues \( swiss cheese \? watching potvin i'm leaning towards latter \) bill
chuck mks com \( chuck lownie \) subject tie breaker \( isles devils \) organization mortice kern systems inc , waterloo , ontario , canada lines 27 article lrw509f rpi edu wangr rpi edu writes people stupid \? \? \? tie breaker , cause record people sooooo stuppid put win first list tie breaker \? \? \? tie breaker , different record \? \? \? \? man , thought people net good hockey might great math , tell two teams ahve points different record \? \? \? man retard ! ! ! ! ! ! ca n't believe people actually put win first tie breaker n't see smilies message w l pts team 50 30 4 104 team b 52 32 0 104 go two teams tie points without identical records
cislabs pitt edu \( william sands \) subject request video pittsburgh area keywords sunday afternoon organization university pittsburgh lines 11 apparently 30 minute special season abc \( channel 4 \) , immediately preceding opening game devils sunday turned time watch credits anyone taped willing let borrow , would appreciate would willing come pick , 'll return next day buy beer please respond via e mail thanks lot oh yeah good \? billy
galvint cs nps navy mil \( thomas galvin \) subject bay area media \( wings leafs coverage \) organization naval postgraduate school , monterey ca lines 30 article dreier durban berkeley edu dreier durban berkeley edu \( roland dreier \) writes san francisco bay area media reporting tonight detroit red wings beat toronto maple leafs 6 3 someone part media conspiracy leafs tell game really went \( expecting 4 0 win leafs , shutout potvin , hat trick andreychuk goal 3 assists gilmour \) leafs really lost , many penalties whichever biased ref game call leafs let red wings win \? thank much roland dreier dreier math berkeley edu sorry disappoint red wings earned victory easily watched game espn \( soon realized game beginning second \) maple leafs flat flat meanwhile , red wings skating freely dictating pace game n't detect bad penalty calls \( van hellemond usual good job \) toronto looked like expected first playoff game years nervous leafs sake , hope rid game 2 game 1 indicative series , 's gonna go quick tom galvin galvint taurus cs nps navy mil
galvint cs nps navy mil \( thomas galvin \) subject schedule organization naval postgraduate school , monterey ca lines 41 article netnews upenn edu kkeller mail sas upenn edu \( keith keller \) writes article master cs rose hulman edu swartzjh rosevc rose hulman edu writes anyone games espn week \? \? \? hopefully detroit toronto game though abc decent job getting f king hockey games televised nationally tonight ! hell \? \? \? hell espn showing stupid baseball game , baseball even three weeks season hockey playoffs \? \? \? , wait , know answer still ! really pisses end better start putting f cking games , never make money deal brought hockey back espn aargh ! ! ! ! \( 'd watch anyway , hockey needs publicity get \) keith keller let's go rangers ! ! ! ! ! let's go quakers ! ! ! ! ! kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs ! ! ! ! cow vegetarian dish keith keller , 1993 obviously n't understand tv scheduling works espn prior contracts baseball show monday night games contracted bs shows well advance nhl tv deal late scheduling process \( normally one plus year nhl package finished two weeks season started \) espn shown tremendous commitment nhl extra telecasts could \( like last minnesota game \) putting stanley cup games backup baseball telecasts \( favorable circumstances could pull last night \) bottom line espn cannot break contracts must honor previous deals made something , especially risk lawsuit breach contract baseball relax i'm happy \( n't get sportschannel anyway \) tom galvin galvint taurus cs nps navy mil
freenet carleton ca \( ken \) subject west coast nhl playoff games reply freenet carleton ca \( ken \) organization national capital freenet lines 28 us newspapers editors unsympathetic playoff pools , often n't get summaries west coast games since finish late night morning edition \( i'm sure others \) would greatly appreciate scoring summaries west coast playoff games could posted group right away basically , need goal scorers assists , n't bother times , penalties , shots etc would make lot pool obsessed people happy guess senators , local papers lost interest \) thanks kd
bks2 cbnewsi cb att com \( bryan k strouse \) subject nhl playoff results games played 4 19 93 organization keywords division semis game one lines 77 nhl playoff results 4 19 93 conference semi finals best seven patrick adams norris smythe nj buf \( leads 1 0 \) stl \( leads 1 0 \) win pit \( leads 1 0 \) bos chi van \( leads 1 0 \) nyi mon tor la \( leads 1 0 \) \( leads 1 0 \) que \( leads 1 0 \) det \( leads 1 0 \) cal toronto maple leafs 1 1 1 3 detroit red wings \( leads series 1 0 \) 1 4 1 6 1st period det , yzerman 1 \( gallant , ciccarelli \) 4 48 tor , cullen 1 \( clark , gill \) 10 44 2nd period det , sheppard 1 \( probert , coffey \) \( pp \) 5 04 det , burr 1 \( racine \) \( sh \) 6 42 det , chiasson 1 \( coffey \) \( pp \) 11 00 det , howe 1 \( yzerman , drake \) 14 46 tor , gilmour 1 \( borschevsky , ellett \) \( pp \) 19 59 3rd period det , racine 1 \( primeau , drake \) 5 10 tor , lefebvre 1 \( cullen , pearson \) 7 45 powerplay opportunities maple leafs 1 5 red wings 2 6 shots goal maple leafs 5 9 9 23 red wings 13 8 12 33 toronto maple leafs potvin \( 0 1 \) \( 33 shots 27 saves \) detroit red wings cheveldae \( 1 0 \) \( 23 shots 20 saves \) att 19 , 875 winnipeg jets 1 0 1 2 vancouver canucks \( leads series 1 0 \) 2 0 2 4 1st period van , adams 1 \( linden , bure \) \( pp \) 1 23 van , craven 1 \( bure , murzyn \) 9 56 win , steen 1 \( shannon , housley \) \( pp \) 17 53 2nd period none 3rd period win , king 1 \( barnes \) 3 43 van , linden 1 \( courtnall , mclean \) 12 16 van , ronning 1 \( courtnall \) 18 31 powerplay opportunities jets 1 3 canucks 1 6 shots goal jets 7 5 10 22 canucks 9 12 12 33 winnipeg jets essensa \( 0 1 \) \( 33 shots 29 saves \) vancouver canucks mclean \( 1 0 \) \( 22 shots 20 saves \) att 15 , 918 spike
willis oracle scg hac com \( stan willis \) subject series 1 , game 1 kings 6 flames 3 reply willis empire dnet hac com \( stan willis \) organization none lines 269 1992 93 los angeles kings notes game reports kings 6 calgary flames 3 04 18 93 third place kings opened 1993 stanley cup playoffs calgary , second place flames came impressive 6 3 victory front non crowd 18 , 605 calgary division playoff hockey teams seemed bit tense opening period though kings scored opening face kings got flow game much earlier flames played standing team defense took flames 9 45 first period record first shot goal kings , ranked 16th 16 playoff teams penalty killing , shut flames flames went 0 8 power play could record 8 shot goal 8 opportunities kings problems power play , yet manager score 2 goals 10 tries kings forwards back checked defense stood flames blue line , allowing kings take took home ice advantage away flames rob blake missed game due lower back ex lineup wednesday wayne gretzky suffered charlie horse right leg took shifts second period retiring dressing room rest game interviewed radio morning , stated fine would lineup wednesday 1st period 1 0 kings got things started right opening face gretzky draw puck going sydor crossed center ice slapped puck flames zone behind net puck carried around far side robitaille rebound bounced sandstrom put puck behind flames net gretzky picked gretzky set , moved near side passed near circle sydor moved sydor , got puck face dot hash mark , shot pass , beating vernon low legs millen fleury went 4 57 skrudland went 12 25 kings failed convert carson went 14 53 flames failed convert dahlquist went 18 34 dahl went 19 30 , giving kings 30 second failed convert kings recorded 2 goal posts period 2nd period kings opened carried 1st period failed convert 6 seconds left , vernon put bouncing puck stands received delay game 1 1 calgary score ensuing kings power play kurri , puck neutral zone , tried put puck flames zone hit stick fleury bounced suter flames blue line suter skated near wing kings zone faked shot circle skated around kurri cut crease , got hrudey go put puck behind hrudey , stick side short hander 2 1 kings lead 25 seconds later power play shuchuk , far circle passed sydor top slot headed net shot hit shuchuk back dropped low slot 2 kings \( shuchuk granato \) checked 3 flames carson came far corner , picked loose puck snapped wrist shot legs vernon 5 feet crease 3 1 kings lead 24 seconds later rychel checked puck flames blue line taylor picked puck sent pass cross slot huddy huddy shot pass , near face dot , beating diving vernon glove side 4 1 2 59 later , kings 3 goal lead mcsorley took shot form near point hit flame deflected towards boards marty got rebound , skated bottom circle sent pass low slot hit dahlquist leg deflected past stick vernon skrudland went 10 53 kings could convert sydor went 12 35 watters went 14 40 , giving flames 5 second 5 3 failed convert mcsorley went 17 19 flames 3 consecutive power plays flames killed suter went high sticking 17 31 sandstrom went 18 03 close period kings hit 3 goal post period 3rd period kings used phrase initiate , retaliate evident 3rd period kings continued pound body flames continued take bad penalties take game 5 1 kings extended lead 4 goals 1 06 mark kings shot puck near corner flames zone vernon went behind net cut puck could control donnelly , behind , puck , sending low slot vernon slid back crease , granato got shot hit flame bounced left net millen fired rebound behind vernon sydor went 1 24 nieuwendyk went 3 22 teams skated 4 4 5 2 otto , skating far side , stepped around mcsorley , cut net passed dahlquist low slot dahlquist cut top crease put puck diving hrudey carson rychel came 2 1 carson passed across rychel , fleury tripped rychel call puck got far corner fleury knocked rychel checked behind boards , drawing 5 minute major game misconduct 6 08 mark unfortunately , kings 5 minute power play granato \( 6 44 \) watters \( 8 19 \) took penalties 5 3 flames closed within 2 8 47 mark macinnis , near point , passed yawney far point took strides towards net , wound drove shot near post glove hrudey play started another faceoff kings lost timeout la 6 3 macinnis took penalty 9 56 kings converted power play seal victory sandstrom , skating far wing flames zone cut towards back net crossed goal line , passed puck low slot , far side , carson shot pass , beating vernon ice , stick side 16 17 mark , skrudland went slashing stern went crazy went shuchuk stern wound double minor roughing , single minor cross checking 10 minute misconduct , took flames right game plus side kings , part , played disciplined hockey let calgary retaliate kings played good team defense excellent penalty killing minus side kings lost almost every face must improve flames surely get power play back track notes kings recalled guy , brandy jim thomson phoenix wayne 1st period assist career playoff point kings entered game 24th league shots per game , giving opposing team average 34 4 shots per game flames goaltender mike vernon entered game 3 9 1 record afternoon games flames entered game 34 success rate power play last 9 games teams 3 3 1 regular season playoffs campbell conference smythe division la 6 cal 3 la leads 1 0 win van norris division stl 4 chi 3 stl leads 1 0 tor det wales conference adams division buf 5 bos 4 \( ot \) buf leads 1 0 mon 2 que 3 \( ot \) que leads 1 0 patrick division nj 3 pit 6 pit leads 1 0 nyi 1 3 leads 1 0 records vs smythe norris adams overall home 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 road 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 total 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 box score calgary 0 1 2 3 los angeles 1 3 2 6 1st period la sydor 1 \( gretzky , sandstrom \) , 0 16 la millen high sticking , 4 57 cal fleury high sticking , 4 57 cal skrudland interference , 12 25 la carson tripping 14 53 cal dahlquist holding stick , 18 34 cal dahl roughing 19 30 2nd period cal delay game \( served ashton \) , 1 34 cal suter 1 \( fleury \) , 2 48 \( sh \) la carson 1 \( shuchuk , sydor \) , 3 13 \( pp \) la huddy 1 \( taylor , rychel \) , 3 37 la mcsorley 1 \( unassisted \) , 6 36 cal skrudland , 10 53 la sydor tripping , 12 35 la watters hooking , 14 40 la mcsorley holding , 17 19 cal suter high sticking , 17 31 la sandstrom hooking , 18 03 3rd period la millen 1 \( granato , donnelly \) , 1 06 la sydor hooking , 1 24 cal nieuwendyk tripping , 3 22 cal dahlquist 1 \( otto \) , 4 23 cal fleury major \( boarding \) , game misconduct , 6 08 la granato tripping , 6 44 la watters interference , 8 19 cal yawney 1 \( macinnis , reichel \) , 8 47 cal macinnis roughing , 9 56 la carson 2 \( sandstrom , robitaille \) , 10 32 \( pp \) la hardy holding , 11 38 cal skrudland slashing , 16 17 cal stern double roughing , cross checking , 10 min misconduct , 16 17 overtime none shots los angeles 8 9 14 31 calgary 5 8 11 24 power play conversions 2 10 year 2 10 , 20 00 0 8 year 8 8 , 100 00 goalies los angeles hrudey \( 1 0 0 \) calgary vernon \( 0 1 0 \) attendance 18 , 605 scratches rob blake back guy numbers lonnie numbers marc potvin numbers brandy numbers robb stauber numbers brent thompson numbers jim thomson numbers lines forwards robitaille gretzky sandstrom donnelly millen kurri rychel conacher taylor granato carson shuchuk lines defense huddy sydor watters zhitnik hardy mcsorley denotes starting lineup next game wednesday , april 21 calgary flames 6 30pm pacific time prime ticket stan willis \( willis empire dnet hac com \) net contact l kings talk l kings mailing list kings cs stanford edu subscribe unsubscribe kings request cs stanford edu
smorris venus lerc nasa gov \( ron morris \) subject murray gm \( wings win organization nasa lewis research center lines 37 distribution world nntp posting host venus lerc nasa gov news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article 1993apr19 sol uvic ca , gballent hudson uvic ca writes article vela acs oakland edu , ragraca vela acs oakland edu \( randy graca \) writes predicting \) although think bryan murray probably best gm ever seen hockey figure \? \? bryan murray took wings pretty good team contending stanley cup looked unlikely win pretty good team contending stanley cup looks unlikely win truly great gm would able make moves push team upper nhl maybe win stanley cup good gm \( like murray \) think murray done great job 's picked ciccarelli , sheppard , ysebaert , howe , coffey , riendeau \( plus depth players \) without giving anything wings needed top prospects three years anyone done better \? year took , wings n't even make playoffs year half stint wings ok , due skills clutch grab style n't much talent gerald , murray n't responsible primeau \( although i'm ready admit 's horrible pick \) hired draft \( never made sense \) first pick lapointe ron one major goals leave next president new set things worry i'm getting bored reading problems paper , decade decade want people deal new problems president bill clinton 2 4 93
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject wings win organization university toronto chemistry department lines 24 article ragraca vela acs oakland edu ragraca vela acs oakland edu \( randy graca \) writes also think hard time pittsburgh face finals \( detroit sportswriters predicting \) although think bryan murray probably best gm ever seen hockey , i'm impressed abilities bench coach general motivator amount talent team , blown away everyone norris another team norris , maybe even campbell conference , hold candle detroit paper terms pure talent , guys pulling weight times year scotty bowman , hand , \( think , correct i'm wrong \) nine \( 9 \) stanley cups , outstanding coach , think could murray faced bryan murray done little gm yzerman , fedorov , cheveldae , chaisson , whole russian strategy product previous gm murray made couple decent trades 's would hardly rank best gm n't primeau , murray 's first decision gm gerald
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject wc 93 results , april 18 organization university toronto chemistry department lines 43 article 1993apr19 iscnvx lmsc lockheed com spiegel msd lmsc lockheed com \( mark spiegel \) writes according sj murky news team usa roster \( names teams played 1992 93 listed \) goalies forwards tony amonte new york rangers ted harvard univ rob gaudreau san sharks craig johnson univ minnesota jeff lazaro ottawa senators mike modano minnesota north stars ed olczyk new york rangers derek plante univ minnesota duluth podein edmonton oilers david sacco boston university darren turcotte new york rangers doug weight edmonton oilers looks like edmonton oilers decided take european vacation spring ranford , tugnutt , benning , manson , smith , buchberger , corson playing canada podein weight playing us kravchuk playing russians know nagging injuries late season podein interesting case eligible play cape breton ahl playoffs like kovalev , zubov , andersson obviously sather pocklington total everyone makes certainly case 've massively paramount new york rangers gerald
john michael santore jsbh andrew cmu edu subject nhl team captains organization sophomore , mathematics , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 31 1993apr19 ann arbor applicon slb com andrew cmu edu nntp posting host po5 andrew cmu edu reply andrew cmu edu michael collingridge writes , subject , captain ever traded , resigned , striped title season \? team captain trivia would appreciated n't ron francis captain whalers traded pittsburgh \? mom rick tocchet captain flyers several years traded pens john santore break surface tension wild kinetic dreams rush , grand designs \( \) \) \) go philadelphia flyers ! john santore \( jsbh andrew cmu edu \) rush yes king crimson emerson , lake palmer marillion genesis \( w gabriel \)
snichols adobe com \( sherri nichols \) subject sharks kingston fired ! ! ! organization adobe systems incorporated lines 19 article 1993apr20 leland stanford edu terry garfield stanford edu \( terry wong \) writes think jack ferreira 's firing eventually led kingston 's firing mention consistency vision think sharks lost loss ferreira never 3 headed g ever worked need one person making personnel decisions top , management committee conventional wisdom around league ferreira would made moves would fielded better product ice exactly would ferreira accomplished \? three headed gm ship taken lot heat , nobody 's explained things would different ferreira still would ferreira made trades \? would traded \? would made fewer trades \? traded \? sherri nichols snichols adobe com
gballent hudson uvic ca \( greg ballentine \) subject wings win nntp posting host hudson uvic ca reply gballent hudson uvic ca organization university victoria , victoria , bc , canada lines 67 article vela acs oakland edu , ragraca vela acs oakland edu \( randy graca \) writes gballent hudson uvic ca \( greg ballentine \) writes article vela acs oakland edu , ragraca vela acs oakland edu \( randy graca \) writes also think hard time pittsburgh face finals \( detroit sportswriters predicting \) although think bryan murray probably best gm ever seen hockey figure \? \? bryan murray took wings pretty good team contending stanley cup looked unlikely win pretty good team contending stanley cup looks unlikely win truly great gm would able make moves push team upper nhl maybe win stanley cup good gm \( like murray \) maintain team 's success ca n't push next level jacques demers brought wings conference finals twice years back , everyone team giving 100 percent , little talent yzerman , bob probert \( drinking problems time \) , couple decent goaltenders stefan got hot 's name one player earlier teams even deserved star game , much less actually got , yzerman probert \? like , petr klima \? give break ! faced edmonton conference finals , hard played , clear faced team simply superior talent wings 's could get finals also , time norris division still weakest division hockey , getting past chicago , toronto impressive today murray brought scoring talent wings years ago devellano gm demers coach name , ysebaert , kozlov , paul coffey \( made definite positive impact power play especially \) murray built one talented teams hockey present , possible exception pittsburgh penguins wings least five 30 goal scorers think , couple defenseman 100 games worth playoff experience murray 's one failing unlike gm 's mentioned \( definitely also good , n't get wrong \) , found strong coach motivate team go give 100 percent full 60 minutes every night like last time made cup run team wins loses , 's reflection gm coach , point original post team opponent terms talent loses anyway \( case year wings struggled \) , indicates gm done job building team coach failed motivate , case last run wings made playoffs murray came , gave opponents hard time beaten easily , indicates good coaching making lack talent fine never said murray bad gm merely said n't best gm hockey even contender honor murray great claim wings would stanley cup probably great gm claim poor coach claim would intelligent enough hire coach push team next level success murray average \( \) nhl coach pretty good gm none true anyway gregmeister
anna matyas am2x andrew cmu edu subject ron francis organization h ss dean 's office , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 44 nntp posting host po2 andrew cmu edu reply 1993apr19 virginia edu matthew rush writes award best back behind hockey great \? underneath hype lemieux , stevens , jagr , ulf , etc , ron francis quietly put together 100 point season \( 24 goals 76 assists 84 games \) probably best acquisition penguins made since getting lemieux \( apologies rick tocchet , hell year \) pens got right person right time got francis playoffs two years ago back mario second line center got francis \? remember randy gilhen \( really plays tough , ace face circle \) , nobody skills francis scoring , passing , winning face offs , putting 100 every game , every night wanted glow little know mean ! glow everytime ronnie 's ice fact , one things seeing pens person key instead watching 'd probably seeing tv many subtle things behind play said interview recently kid dad stressed importance playing two way hockey learn play defense well offense obviously took advice heart breath fresh air arrived pittsburgh team whose forwards , part , could n't would n't play lick defense 's really difficult assess key trades brought success pens mention rick tocchet certainly helped , even ol' kjell steady looking team could almost take one line permanently replace extremely mediocre player would n't matter pick top three recent years would 1 \) tom barrasso 2 \) ron francis 3 \) larry murphy \( 'd love put francis first think thing could really damage pens right would lose barrasso \) mom
james j murawski jjm andrew cmu edu subject cherry coach 's corner summary april 19 , 1993 organization administrative computing info services , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 29 nntp posting host po2 andrew cmu edu reply allan swanlake 20 apr 93 cherry coach 's corner user allan sullivan cs writes next , clip shown earlier episode , proclaiming doug gilmour best player , nhl , world players like lemieux \? said gilmour best player , designated point getter like baseball , hitter score runs ca n't play defense gilmour good two way player clip shown local news pittsburgh last night \( kdka \) , complete animated sarcasm sportscaster 's second time cherry shown local pittsburgh news last couple weeks times blasting lemieux jim murawski sr software engineer \( 412 \) 268 office administrative computing \( 412 \) 268 fax information services jjm andrew cmu edu carnegie mellon university office ucc 155 forbes avenue pittsburgh , pa 15213 3890 le mieux ! le ! six ! claude non ! 1371 days clinton \( \) leaves office \( 1370 many \)
snichols adobe com \( sherri nichols \) subject cherry coach 's corner summary april 19 , 1993 organization adobe systems incorporated lines 18 article allan swanlake allan cs ualberta ca \( allan sullivan \) writes next , clip shown earlier episode , proclaiming doug gilmour best player , nhl , world players like lemieux \? said gilmour best player , designated point getter like baseball , hitter score runs ca n't play defense gilmour good two way player expect said pens drafted kirk muller instead mario lemieux \? perhaps upon time cherry insight game hockey , 's really parody sherri nichols snichols adobe com
dchhabra stpl ists ca \( deepak chhabra \) subject nords 3 habs 2 robbed ! ! nntp posting host stpl ists ca organization solar terresterial physics laboratory , ists lines 66 article 18apr93 vm1 mcgill ca jbe5 jbe5 musicb mcgill ca writes aargh ! paul stewart worst biased ref presently nhl called total 4 penalties habs one nordiques penalty came stewart , ex nordique , looking call penalties habs letting nords get away murder robbed ! ! ! ! patrick roy reason game lost , ron hextall reason quebec everybody said would come goaltending , goaltending key , etc etc well , key n't quite fit 're montreal dionne penalty kind cheesy call , let 's face literally left feet throw elbow blaming stewart excuse avoid facing fact roy allowed one worst goals could possibly allow even saw whole shot , dammit besides , stewart things bit calling quebec penalty ot montreal played solid game \( although still n't know clear traffic front net loss schneider hurt even \) normally would say team blows 2 goal lead less five , let alone two , minutes go regulation time playoff game especially needs smacked upside collective heads n't think team loss \( although keane able clear zone prior first quebec goal \) roy paid big money play looked like player industrial league sakic 's shot demers start racicot next game , let damn team read papers next day two maybe article , possible patrick roy collapsed letting tieing goal shaky knees rest night winning goal n't gone n't think wrap around bad second goal also n't think scott young gotten around defender \( ca n't remember \) first place correct , n't gone regardless oh well , least bruins lost also ha , ha ! ! \) yep moog looked bad mogilny 's goal five seconds left second , imo neely though \? holy shit , player speaking great players , man oh man quebec skate n't seen team potent rush long time watching break zone , especially sundin , treat watch remind red army still hate team rest games n't st winning goal come powerplay \? penalties cost chicago dearly , especially detroit goes calgary , marty waving guys bench avoid fights , know something 's new jersey , terreri 's notwithstanding mario unbelievable , jagr reason shows playoffs hate team anyway dchhabra stpl ists ca \( pissed habs fan \)
dchhabra stpl ists ca \( deepak chhabra \) subject atlanta hockey hell ! ! nntp posting host stpl ists ca organization solar terresterial physics laboratory , ists lines 24 article andrew cmu edu mamatha devineni ratnam mr47 andrew cmu edu writes well , 's bad still pretty pissed local abc coverage cut first half hour coverage playing stuff deleted ok , 's solution problem move canada yesterday able watch four games nj pitt 1 00 abc , la cal 3 00 \( cbc \) , buff bos 7 00 \( tsn fox \) , mon que 7 30 \( cbc \) think series goes max could watching hockey playoffs 40 odd consecutive nights \( n't counted 's pure guess \) two tv 's house , set side side watch mon que keep eye bos buff time two afternoon games btw , abc great ! quite impressed seemed know audience n't likely well schooled hockey lore excellent job quite impartial also , imo dchhabra stpl ists ca \( suffering shortage hockey \)
dchhabra stpl ists ca \( deepak chhabra \) subject div conf names nntp posting host stpl ists ca organization solar terresterial physics laboratory , ists distribution na lines 56 article 1993apr19 ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) writes evan pritchard writes think incorrect , roger patrick , smythe adams played coached league becoming front office types hence , help build league , although great players punch 's contributions coach gm far greater combined name division trophy \? owner vs player contributions deleted going honour contributed league 's evolution going honour contributed glory sport \? stuff deleted money issue irrelevant point would agree , players make game great people put ice recall , author original article started thread claimed disliked changing names variety reasons roger , one front flamed rather severely grounds rant , also supported name changing grounds current names inappropriate individuals represent fwiw , think flaming warranted , think enhanced credibility observation however , aside , real question whether like idea changing names based reasons given \( making easier \) , whether like idea unique divisional names based individuals deserve honour imo , latter nice unique touch differs sports addition , think changing divisional names effect number people interested hockey , 's pointless exercise anyway current names inappropriate , separate issue , central original article something consider additionally whether players like orr glory would able without organized professional league play case , honouring builders league opposed builders sport becomes chicken egg type question \( although chicken \) exactly true naming divisions trophies smythe bunch kind put stein hall fame always thought nonsense dunno stein comparison justifiable , since n't look though hall hold dchhabra stpl ists ca
dchhabra stpl ists ca \( deepak chhabra \) subject hawks vs leafs nntp posting host stpl ists ca organization solar terresterial physics laboratory , ists distribution na lines 18 article 1993apr18 alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) writes replays , joe murphy 's goal n't counted ! game would ended 2 2 tie ! thought red light went thus , review , presumption would find conclusive evidence puck go net replays say , even rear , evidence n't conclusive puck opinion impression objective find conclusive evidence puck cross line , replays saw showed fairly conclusively puck cross goal line time anyway somebody screwed dchhabra stpl ists ca
icf hrb com \( eric sebastian \) subject thumbs espn organization hrb systems , inc lines 12 article 1993apr20 032017 5783 wuecl wustl edu , jca2 cec1 wustl edu \( joseph charles achkar \) writes nice see espn show game 1 wings leafs since cubs astros got rained instead showing another baseball game , decided stanley cup playoffs classy move espn good see wings play , lets give espn much credit n't late baseball games n't another option eric sebastian go pens
smorris venus lerc nasa gov \( ron morris \) subject wings take game one organization nasa lewis research center lines 25 distribution world nntp posting host venus lerc nasa gov news software vax vms vnews 1 41 cl msu , vergolin euler lbs msu edu \( david vergolini \) writes detroit red wings put lot ice tonight 6 3 washing toronto maple leafs toronto fans seen power mighty red wing offense toronto 's defense match wing offense defense , probert , primeau came hitting hard toronto players thrown left right even wendell clark tough enough wings tough guys wings gave three goals , low total say mediocre defense leaf fans better speak team probable season ended soon wings fans , keep support 's quite wings fans lurking , tend low key thoughtful rather woofers suppose every family must roger clinton , though remember \( paraphrase one favorite star trek lines \) , adopt ways leaf fans , bad leaf fans ron one major goals leave next president new set things worry i'm getting bored reading problems paper , decade decade want people deal new problems president bill clinton 2 4 93
ragraca vela acs oakland edu \( randy graca \) subject wings win organization oakland university , rochester , michigan , u lines 29 nntp posting host vela acs oakland edu golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) writes bryan murray done little gm yzerman , fedorov , cheveldae , chaisson , whole russian strategy product previous gm murray made couple decent trades 's would hardly rank best gm n't primeau , murray 's first decision gm gerald many teams nhl taken liking russian players whole russian strategy specific detroit devellano , gm murray previous gm also trade away several players gone well teams , notably \( memory \) murray craven , good years philly leaving also , 's volume trades necessarily improve team , quality trading adam oates bernie federko plain stupid , even federko used great player one time murray 's trades worked significantly advantage , n't mainly injury players involved \( troy , suffered back problems never really recovered \) put scotty bowman , pat burns , better coaches league behind bench detroit team , could beat anybody randy
ferguson cs rochester edu \( george ferguson \) subject abc coverage reply ferguson cs rochester edu \( george ferguson \) organization university rochester hockey science dept distribution usa article andrew cmu edu anna matyas am2x andrew cmu edu writes thorne good 've always fan clement \( miss mike emrick ! \) boyfriend , hockey fan , even looked one point said , guys pretty good announcers \( guy said rick tocchet looks like charles \) boyfriend comment fact clement looks like walking ad pad hair replacement therapy \? guy 's stuffed shirt thinks 's greatest hockey analyst since \( gosh sakes \) 'll take day george george ferguson arpa ferguson cs rochester edu dept computer science uucp rutgers ! rochester ! ferguson university rochester vox \( 716 \) 275 2527 rochester ny 14627 0226 fax \( 716 \) 461 2018
ferguson cs rochester edu \( george ferguson \) subject thumbs espn reply ferguson cs rochester edu \( george ferguson \) organization university rochester hockey science dept article 1993apr20 032017 5783 wuecl wustl edu jca2 cec1 wustl edu \( joseph charles achkar \) writes nice see espn show game 1 wings leafs since cubs astros got rained instead showing another baseball game , decided stanley cup playoffs classy move espn tried best show , believe i'm surprised could n't find sprint car race \( mini cars , indeed ! \) short notice george george ferguson arpa ferguson cs rochester edu dept computer science uucp rutgers ! rochester ! ferguson university rochester vox \( 716 \) 275 2527 rochester ny 14627 0226 fax \( 716 \) 461 2018
ferguson cs rochester edu \( george ferguson \) subject abc coverage reply ferguson cs rochester edu \( george ferguson \) organization university rochester hockey science dept distribution usa article blue cis pitt edu ccohen pitt edu \( caleb n cohen \) writes boy everyone ripping espn 's hockey coverage \( 's thrilled lange steigy \? \) unaware espn bought air time abc production , advertising sales , , etc even reaped made interests saving heated time year \( viz early flurry retard comments coming certain state whose name starts p ends \) , n't tell us something n't already know \? george george ferguson arpa ferguson cs rochester edu dept computer science uucp rutgers ! rochester ! ferguson university rochester vox \( 716 \) 275 2527 rochester ny 14627 0226 fax \( 716 \) 461 2018
r turgeo oz plymouth edu \( randy turgeon \) subject thumbs espn keywords espn , detroit , toronto , hockey coverage organization plymouth state college plymouth , nh lines 29 article 1993apr20 032017 5783 wuecl wustl edu jca2 cec1 wustl edu \( joseph charles achkar \) writes nice see espn show game 1 wings leafs since cubs astros got rained instead showing another baseball game , decided stanley cup playoffs classy move espn reason espn showed hockey came baseball game scheduled evening randy r turgeo oz plymouth edu \) l l e z l e b l u e ! ! ! joe ashkar contact blues saint louis jca2 cec1 wustl edu \( \) blues
gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) subject abc coverage nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) organization phds hall distribution usa lines 24 ccohen pitt edu \( caleb n cohen \) writes boy everyone ripping espn 's hockey coverage \( 's thrilled lange steigy \? \) unaware espn bought air time abc production , advertising sales , , etc even reaped made , caleb , 's quality espn problem superb , whereas evolve beyond point espn left hockey went sc \( excepting sc 's use feeds cbc \( \) 's amount hockey 're showing , lack , 're complaining rights two ot 's could 've shown sunday night baseball pickup trucks racing oversized followed super 8 home movies old car races \( yes , checking desperation canucks jets \) last night sportscenter gld je souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go ! ! ! gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
dvb ick \( david van beveren \) subject nhl team captains organization sunsoft inc , los angeles , ca lines 16 nntp posting host ick x newsreader tin 1 1 pl3 colling ann arbor applicon slb com \( michael collingridge \) writes , subject , captain ever traded , resigned , striped title season \? team captain trivia would appreciated luc robitaille captain kings first third season , great one came back disc injury kind awkward , melrose appointed \( anointed \? \) captain immediately upon return , score goal something like 10 games think luc remained captain season dvb
joe13 pitt edu \( joseph b stiehm \) subject abc coverage distribution usa organization university pittsburgh lines 30 article andrew cmu edu am2x andrew cmu edu \( anna matyas \) writes skeptical game pleasantly surprised coverage particularly impressed close range camera coverage work corners behind play without losing beat getting back puck thorne good 've always fan clement \( miss mike emrick ! \) boyfriend , hockey fan , even looked one point said , guys pretty good announcers \( guy said rick tocchet looks like charles \) mom one complaint jersey pitt series show shots , hits one occassion camera check along boards puck slot back show rebound maybe mom 's camera people little experienced joseph stiehm
gp2011 andy bgsu edu \( george pavlic \) subject ron francis organization bowling green state university b g , oh lines 10 mention , mr francis incredibly nice person christmas break , friend mine little xmas gathering two us drove ron 's house stayed car , friend went door rang bell ron answered friend introduced proceeded invite francis party ron declined watch daughter reached shook friend 's hand ! know n't r b , n't think barry bonds would polite situation george
nlu xenon stanford edu \( nelson lu \) subject sharks review part 5 left wings organization computer science department , stanford university lines 161 apparently , part 2 \( defensemen numbered 2 19 \) lost posted make things worse , lost copy asked sharks mailing list , get , see someone mail copy back someone responds , repost get otherwise , write day two post sorry 8 larry depalma season 3rd acquired '91 92 , free agent minnesota grade \( c \) netter fan watching sharks , including , knows depalma end season sharks appeared still rights , n't san jose , n't kansas city , name n't appeared waiver wire kind invisibility prevalent part depalma called october 30 tampa bay lightning , depalma excellent week , scoring 5 points 3 games playing good defense unfortunately , 27 year old depalma disappeared rest way , getting 3 points 15 games , generally looked lethargic ends ice sent kansas city , walked , suspended later revealed injured promptly disappeared watching eyes shark bytes \( mailing list known sharks officials \) faithful , neither sharks miss 10 johan garpenlov season 3rd acquired '91 92 , trade detroit bob mcgill 8th round pick '92 entry draft vancouver grade early slump , garpenlov nothing short rest way , finishing 66 points 79 games , second highest total team , clicked well team mvp kelly kisio right wing rob gaudreau kisio got credit , garpenlov , finishing second mvp voting , clearly demonstrated scoring skills , seen making excellent centering passes well finishing passes putting puck past opposing goaltenders , getting club high 14 power play goals contrary previous rep , garpenlov also showed despite small size \( 5' 11 , 183 lbs \) , willing throw around necessary , albeit successful yet also still needs work defense , although improved tremendously throughout season , actually quite good penalty killer end season major key offense next year 15 david bruce season 5th acquired '91 92 , st louis expansion draft grade \( \? \) banner '91 92 , led team power play goals \( 10 \) third total scoring \( 38 points 60 games \) , bruce bothered virtually season groin injury , kept lineup 17 games season course , difficult speculate well would done season affected injury , 28 year old bruce effective man man short sharks' first season , expected strong offensive leader season well injury appears serious , shame , otherwise may much brighter future instead , future sharks next season appears clouded 18 mark pederson season 3rd acquired '92 93 , trade philadelphia c lw dave grade \( b \) difficult understand decision unload pederson , good offensive season last season \( 40 points 58 games \) , riding pine early season , pederson summarily sent sharks exchange defensive minded , finished 41 games combined flyers sharks also limited injuries season , limited production \( 17 points \) healthy , pederson appears impressive , good scoring touch , good size \( willingness throw around , although 's considered physical forward \) , good speed also appear liability defense , sharks probably wait next season see much , exactly , pederson 20 john carter season 4th acquired '91 92 , free agent boston grade \( b b \) carter definitely one hardest workers team , hard work worked wonders , times looked great ice however , although look great times , fact received 16 points \( 55 games \) efforts sign much hard work , sharks confirmed sending kansas city 20 games left season carter , turn 30 may 6 , always , result , sometimes trapped deep within offensive zone , generally credit defensive end , probably limited utility capacity , impress offensively , although one best sharks drawing penalties unlikely back next season 28 jean francois quintin season 1st acquired '91 92 , minnesota dispersal draft grade \( b b \) n't understand sharks n't let quintin play 14 games played season generally hard working creating opportunities offensively , appeared , age 23 , ready regular nhl duty , least team like sharks , finishing 7 points 14 games defensive liability shoulder injury training camp '91 92 season limited quintin , team 's leading scorer exhibition games despite sitting final two , 29 games sharks blades season , looked impressive solid contender regular duty next season 41 mark beaufait season 1st acquired 2nd round pick 1991 supplemental draft grade \( \? \) star season kansas city , beaufait got cup coffey sharks late season blades knocked playoff spot sharks decimated injuries , playing 5 games scoring goal nhl point thus far despite small size \( 5' 9 , 165 lbs \) , beaufait shy throw around necessary , looked pretty good times , although 's early judge based 5 nhl games , played mostly left wing , away center position northern michigan kansas city 42 season 1st acquired 8th round pick 1991 entry draft grade \( \? \) like beaufait , also played away normal position cup tea \( 7 games \) midway season generally much defensive liability , show much offensively either , although may indicative lack ice time got 7 games may need another season work defense , defense acceptable , ready 44 michel picard season 1st acquired '92 93 , trade hartford lw yvon corriveau grade \( b c \) 23 year old picard , although tore minors , seems close chances , reason , acquired sharks failing impress management 25 games , scoring 4 goals points , spent rest way kansas city particularly strong defensively , despite offensive minors , failed thus far score nhl , although given limited opportunities may sharks' bait expansion draft 45 dody wood season 1st acquired 3rd round pick 1991 entry draft grade \( , although perhaps n't give grade \) accused knocking wood much \) , probably surprise thoroughly wood thus far , although 13 games small example generally offense , particularly good defensively , took many silly penalties , losing many fights process gathering 69 penalty minutes 13 games , projecting 446 \( ! \) 84 game season 's ready , needs least another season kc , work fighting skills , nothing else relatively small size \( 5' 11 , 181 lbs \) give much possibility survive , stage , enforcer go calgary flames ! al macinnis norris ! gary roberts hart smythe ! go edmonton oilers ! go playoffs next year ! stay edmonton ! nelson lu \( claudius leland stanford edu \) rec sport hockey contact san jose sharks
nlu xenon stanford edu \( nelson lu \) subject sharks review part 2 defensemen \( 2 19 \) organization computer science department , stanford university lines 92 finally got back , great thanks mark spiegel saving sending 2 rob season 4th acquired '91 92 , minnesota dispersal draft grade c c gave sharks every bit 's got year unfortunately , still n't enough make marginal , works hard , sure , better average defense , prone costly penalties defensive lapses times , basically offensive zero \( 0 goal 7 assists 79 games \) would make team next year 3 david williams season 2nd acquired '91 92 , free agent new jersey grade c c imo , williams valuable defenseman sharks '91 92 , playing combination good offense \( 3 goals 25 assists 56 games \) good defense , playing first part season kansas city , good neither offensively defensively year , , appears '91 92 fluke although improved towards end season , prone position defensively , demonstrate skills made team 's leading scorer among defensemen last year would also make team next year 4 jayson season 2nd acquired '91 92 , montreal expansion draft grade b touted team 's top defensive prospects training camp '91 92 , rather disappointing '91 92 , particularly good defensively , 17 points 46 games , , proceeded improve game massively season , becoming team 's reliable defenseman , team count night night play steady defense providing occasional \( occasional \) offensive flash offensively , even disappointing last year \( 11 points 73 games \) , defense improved tremendously probably best defensive part defense combination offensive defenseman 5 neil wilkinson season 4th acquired '91 92 , minnesota dispersal draft grade b wilkinson probably team 's top defensive defenseman '91 92 however , partially injuries , year , missed 25 games total due nagging knee back injuries , seemed slowed even playing , , often saved defensive partners , also solid games , complete healthy , still force 6 ozolinsh season 1st acquired '91 92 , 2nd round pick entry draft grade \( \) time injury \( december 30 , philadelphia flyers \) , ozolinsh well track , imo , team 's mvp serious knee injury game , though , forced miss rest season \( 47 games \) , still finished team 's top scorer among defensemen \( 23 points \) , , course , tells lack offense sharks defensemen , also tells ozolinsh 's abilities time , playing good defense along excellent offense still susceptible called rookie mistakes , probably defenseman made least team , rookie veteran come back injuries , ready star 19 doug zmolek season 1st acquired '91 92 , minnesota dispersal draft grade b zmolek basically solid durable year , one two sharks play 84 games season solid defense , offensive defenseman , n't show \( 15 points \) also prone penalties , 229 penalty minutes second team however , also indication facing tough physical opponents , best playing physically become fixture league , needs improve offensively defensively , cut number power plays gives opponents go calgary flames ! al macinnis norris ! gary roberts hart smythe ! go edmonton oilers ! go playoffs next year ! stay edmonton ! nelson lu \( claudius leland stanford edu \) rec sport hockey contact san jose sharks
mcl bdm com \( arthur davis \) subject ron francis organization bdm international , inc lines 17 nntp posting host jupiter mcl bdm com article 1993apr19 virginia edu mjr4u virginia edu \( matthew j rush \) writes forgot ask highest points total francis season \? ever 100 point season , either pens whalers \? francis got 101 89 90 , last full season hartford agreement previous post , think francis tremendous generally underrated complete player would love capitals uniform would certainly 1 center \( even though pivonka also good complete player generally underrated \) francis many ways ethical dale hunter tons heart attitude lot different skills , none cheap shots penalty minutes mention nearly always coming 's important
mlindroos finabo abo fi \( marcus lindroos inf \) subject expanding europe dusseldorf reply voecking informatik tu muenchen de 's message fri , 16 apr 1993 07 37 16 gmt organization abo akademi university , finland x news reader vms news 1 24 lines 36 1993apr16 informatik tu muenchen de voecking informatik tu muenchen de writes article 1993apr15 abo fi , mlindroos finabo abo fi \( marcus lindroos inf \) writes pkortela lk hp 17 hut fi pkortela snakemail hut fi writes deg many german born forwards team fact majority players german born 1992 93 deg average spectator arena interesting ! one german friends \( robert \? \) told forwards canadian germans perhaps somebody sort us \? far know dusseldorf one canadian german forward \( e player born canada german passport \) benoit became german german going play germany wc canada born forwards peter john lee \( british passport \) chris valentine dale steve earl \( \? \) moment three german born forwards coming mind , andreas , ernst hm , think dusseldorf fans would like team joined nhl \? include well \( cologne \) make happy \? \) volker marcu
bnr ca \( kerry \) subject goalie masks reply bnr ca organization bnr ottawa lines 10 article 1993apr15 ac dal ca , brifre1 ac dal ca writes saw mask drawings band aids , presumably every puck goalie stopped face head ca n't remember even nhl \( see quite ahl games \) gerry cheevers used mask stitches painted ken dryden 's mask classic archetype time
wangr ecs rpi edu \( fan ! ! \) subject islanders ! ! ! ! nntp posting host ecs rpi edu reply wangr rpi edu organization rensselaer polytechnic institute , troy , ny lines 2 need say \? \? \? \? \? \? \?
lmcdapi noah ericsson se \( daniel \) subject nhl team captains reply lmcdapi noah ericsson se organization ericsson communication inc lines 31 nntp posting host bison lmc ericsson se x disclaimer article posted user ericsson opinions expressed strictly user necessarily ericsson article andrew cmu edu , am2x andrew cmu edu \( anna matyas \) writes michael collingridge writes , subject , captain ever traded , resigned , striped title season \? team captain trivia would appreciated n't ron francis captain whalers traded pittsburgh \? mom chris chelios montreal 's co captain guy carbonneau traded chicago denis savard , peter stastny captain quebec nordiques traded new jersey also mark messier captain edmonton oilers traded new york dale hawerchuk winnipeg traded buffalo , captain \? think forget wayne \( know \) traded l captain n't strip wendel clark toronto \? updates thoughts cheer daniel \( lmc u det design \) ericsson communications inc blvd , floor town mont royal , quebec \( 514 \) 738 ext 2178 e mail lmcdapi lmc ericsson se lmc lmcdapi cheers
cleveland freenet edu \( roland behunin \) subject anybody schedule games sunday 25 apr 93 organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 31 nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu hello hockey fans tout le monde ! well , salt lake city past sunday , local abc station decided televise hockey games la de programme est la de ! anyway , satellite dish , friends hockey invited watch games coming sunday \( 25 apr \) , find correct game times calgary la game times showing everything 11 00 mdt , 5 00 pm mdt even sure games going played coming sunday , abc schedule think able pull three games \( 11 00 , 2 00 pm , 5 30 pm mdt \) dish , sure anybody schedule , pleas see , get rec sport hockey , sometimes difficult get link thanks advance p ou roland behunin behunin af mil behunin hill af mil roland
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject wings take game one keywords detroit red wings 6 toronto maple leafs 3 organization university toronto chemistry department lines 28 article 1993apr20 ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) writes msuinfo cl msu edu vergolin euler lbs msu edu \( david vergolini \) writes detroit red wings put lot ice tonight 6 3 washing toronto maple leafs toronto fans seen power mighty red wing offense toronto 's defense match wing offense defense , probert , primeau came move probert back defense \? see parking ass front potvin night \? somebody going discipline probert leafs want win series perhaps fresh clark hit ice end long probert shift regular season , intensity , many teams forwards continually go park front opposing teams net leafs defense regard thus n't matter however , playoffs different story every good team going players going become plants front potvin leafs relatively defensive core finally exposed weak inept hard work go long way regular season almost 100 points leafs deserve credit playoffs talent matters , everyone begins working hard gerald
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject cherry coach 's corner summary april 19 , 1993 organization university toronto chemistry department lines 24 article andrew cmu edu james j murawski jjm andrew cmu edu writes 20 apr 93 cherry coach 's corner user allan sullivan cs writes next , clip shown earlier episode , proclaiming doug gilmour best player , nhl , world players like lemieux \? said gilmour best player , designated point getter like baseball , hitter score runs ca n't play defense gilmour good two way player clip shown local news pittsburgh last night \( kdka \) , complete animated sarcasm sportscaster 's second time cherry shown local pittsburgh news last couple weeks times blasting lemieux designated point getter remarks meant lemieux , gretzky , bure , etc etc made particular remarks last december lemieux diagnosed 's , leafs started second half roll , gilmour 's great season recognized many people gerald
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject abc coverage organization university toronto chemistry department distribution usa lines 24 article andrew cmu edu anna matyas am2x andrew cmu edu writes thorne good 've always fan clement \( miss mike emrick ! \) boyfriend , hockey fan , even looked one point said , guys pretty good announcers \( guy said rick tocchet looks like charles \) imho clement , although pleasant personality \( pleasant opinion \) , terrible analyst , almost alway wrong example new jersey 's first goal last sunday grew dick irvin color beside danny gallivan knew irvin , dick irvin friend mine bill clement n't dick irvin long teams involved include us national team new york rangers , 'd take john davidson bill clement day gerald
gp2011 andy bgsu edu \( george pavlic \) subject pens playoff radio coverage \( radio stations \) organization bowling green state university b g , oh lines 42 article 1 cs cmu edu , lli cs cmu edu \( lori iannamico \) wrote according morning 's post gazette pens carried kdka radio \( 1020 \) , unless pirates playing pirates play , games carried wdve \( 102 5 fm \) wdve carry 12 games , starting tonight 's game fact , season , kdka longer flagship station pens penguins kbl struck new deal regarding tv radio rights games seems likely wdve flagship radio station next season kbl carry 62 games tv , 17 games kdka tv remaining 22 games , well early round playoff games , available subscription tv receive games , 'll pay one time hook fee , monthly fee 11 12 dollars also , new deal , longer radio tv tv broadcast team , radio broadcast team word announcers mike lange paul steigerwald contract kdka , contracts expire end season kbl president bill craig said 'd like hire lange steigerwald lori contact penguins lli cs cmu edu ! 's \( \? \) behind one ted simmons \? saying goes , ai n't broke , n't fix i'm 230 miles home \( school year \) never able pick dve least sort make mike steigy say static kdka may enough reason transfer live home 's going announce dve anyway \? paulson \? \( kidding \) george
jake rambler eng sun com \( jason cockroft \) subject pat burns organization sun microsystems , inc lines 57 distribution world reply jake rambler eng sun com nntp posting host rambler eng sun com keywords leaf wings leafs \? leaf supporter say leafs going four unless nothing short miracle stroke hits pat burns pat burns would \? living bay area , get enough leaf coverage pull something bag , \( would appreciate comments leaf detroit 3rd line match ups \) basic idea andreychuck borchevsky business playing wings small key leafs success clark centre presence within 3 stick lengths slot hell anderson \? anderson \( days past \) get peoples skin put little bluntly , anderson asshole used good need perhaps , perhaps leafs shut detroit 's second line see shepard flying last night guys swing players wings last year major choke playoffs blame quick exit wings happen clark anderson gilmour able hustle line anderson nasty clark bang hell sheppard score gilmour score ! suggestions clarke anderson gilmour vs sheppard \? \? andreychuck \? \? vs detroit checking line toronto 's checking line vs yzerman fedorov probert \( pray lots \) suggested would bench andreychuck borchevsky stir things monkey wrench game plan however , detroit coaching would dumb enough play checking line finesse players well let play potvin faulted 5 goals keep van faulted leafs demise either wings defense shut leafs \( especially slot \) hope pat burns realizes team hit , skated , coached monday night loss poor goaltending officiating calls drastic measures tee next monday jake go leafs ! ! !
caj sei cmu edu \( carol jarosz \) subject radio stations organization software engineering institute lines 15 article ragraca vela acs oakland edu , ragraca vela acs oakland edu \( randy graca \) writes pittsburgh penguins games used broadcast kdka 1020 , n't know whether pre empted baseball \( moved another station \) try local baseball teams n't playing time , anyway randy pens broadcast 102 5 wdve carol
robert angelo pleshar rp16 andrew cmu edu subject bowman whining already organization university libraries e library , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 14 nntp posting host andrew cmu edu guessed 's time annual pittsburgh penguins whine thon bowman cheap shots devils game 1 i'm sorry , mr bowman , 're great coach , cheap shots nothing compared 's going come also , guess able notice cheap shots made guys white 's amazing black gold colored glasses ps nice dive high stick mario everyone knew high stick , could stayed feet saved diving talent later bit , ralph
ad215 freenet carleton ca \( rachel holme \) subject cbc game choices \( la cbc \) reply ad215 freenet carleton ca \( rachel holme \) organization national capital freenet lines 39 previous article , 35002 2765 uwovax uwo ca \( \) says article boora sfu ca , boora kits sfu ca \( godfather \) writes cbc great chance double headers toronto detroit vancouver winnipeg , today said east gets leafs west get vancouver game thought would show i'm totally p 'd , ! vancouver winnipeg great west coast hockey fast paced loads talent 've seen far hardly entertaining , exception odd shift every \( course missed calgary la jersey \) , cbc figure everyone ontario cares leafs , maple leafs , nothing leafs half southern ontario people moved west , good folks toronto could n't care less show doubleheader \( heck second game would two canadian teams ! \) , let desperate news watch national , n't \? canada ends windsor , know ! amen get updates every 30 mins cnn headline news , crying loud 's cheaper phone calls \( must better system one ring , adams linden , scores two rings bure rushes ice , scores , etc etc \) \) ad215 freenet carleton ca \( rachel holme \)
gp2011 andy bgsu edu \( george pavlic \) subject matt militzok please read ! organization bowling green state university b g , oh lines 6 sorry everyone wasting space matt , day posted mailing list playoff stats lost address please put list thanks george
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject wings win organization university toronto chemistry department lines 42 article ragraca vela acs oakland edu ragraca vela acs oakland edu \( randy graca \) writes golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) writes bryan murray done little gm yzerman , fedorov , cheveldae , chaisson , whole russian strategy product previous gm murray made couple decent trades 's would hardly rank best gm many teams nhl taken liking russian players whole russian strategy specific detroit devellano , gm murray previous gm also trade away several players gone well teams , notably \( memory \) murray craven , good years philly leaving also , 's volume trades necessarily improve team , quality trading adam oates bernie federko plain stupid , even federko used great player one time murray 's trades worked significantly advantage , n't mainly injury players involved \( troy , suffered back problems never really recovered \) went earlier extensively russian strategy anyone else first gm waste high draft choices young russians would still gm demers pleading make oates federko et al trade deal sealed fate murray made decent trades doubt due stupidity teams part washington cheap pay ciccarelli essentially gave away carson really big anchor team , able sucker rookie gm give paul coffey detroit still fails year one defenseman short wasted opportunity manson available , unable pull trigger judgement enough 's got yzerman n't many years prime gerald
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject murray gm \( wings win organization university toronto chemistry department lines 18 article venus lerc nasa gov smorris venus lerc nasa gov \( ron morris \) writes gerald , murray n't responsible primeau \( although i'm ready admit 's horrible pick \) hired draft \( never made sense \) first pick lapointe n't think primeau necessarily bad pick i'm trying locate beginning murray 's decisions trading carson delayed primeau 's development wait longer big players often primeau good player without point game player , especially team yzerman fedorov primeau becomes joel otto , gets 20 goals season , plays mean extremely good pick gerald
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject panther 's president organization university toronto chemistry department lines 20 article cybernet cse fau edu cybernet cse fau edu \( jim \) writes little bio sun sentinel torrey , architect four consecutive stanley cup champions general manager new york islanders throughout 27 years nhl , bill torrey 's bow ties become much signature andre 's hair panthers introduce uniform , insignia , ticket price information early next month meantime , huizenga leaves day day operation hands torrey bob clarke , vp gm san jose sharks ottawa senators second gm already 'd willing wager sharks senators probably see 3rd gm 's perhaps 4th , see panthers second gerald
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject wc 93 results , april 18 organization university toronto chemistry department lines 26 article access digex net steveg cadkey com \( steve gallichio \) writes gerald olchowy \( golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \) writes podein interesting case eligible play cape breton ahl playoffs like kovalev , zubov , andersson obviously sather pocklington total everyone makes certainly case 've massively paramount new york rangers policy regarding players minor league playoffs versus wc \? know rangers holding back kovalev , zubov , andersson binghamton , also know whalers wanted michael nylander play springfield , nylander wanted play sweden whalers allowed nhl decide , nhl chose wcs differ rangers oilers \? whalers go league , could forced nylander play springfield \? obviously , ultimately teams choice nhl would obviously prefer annoy european hockey , nhl right cannot force nhl teams free players whalers probably way annoy farm team affiliate gerald
shah pitt edu \( shah \) subject nords 3 habs 2 robbed ! ! lines 23 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 deepak chhabra \( dchhabra stpl ists ca \) wrote speaking great players , man oh man quebec skate n't seen team potent rush long time watching break zone , especially sundin , treat watch remind red army dchhabra stpl ists ca \( pissed habs fan \) yeah , nords look like 're going good \( excuse bias \) ever watched pens rush \? n't answer everyone seen footage near end season pens played nords like watching \( younger \) double pens nords looked good right point lost ravi shah shah pitt edu la mu ideas approx translation music bring ideas continue forever electronic sound decibel non stop synthetic decibel
jca2 cec1 wustl edu \( joseph charles achkar \) subject thumbs espn keywords espn , detroit , toronto , hockey coverage nntp posting host cec1 organization washington university , st louis mo distribution na lines 26 article cbnewsh cb att com seth cbnewsh cb att com \( peter r clark jr \) writes , leave room 100 times said night baseball games \? every break took back studio mentioned , followed 'so 're gonna show hockey instead ' wife hoping rain every baseball game feed tommorrow night point , glad showed hockey , baseball available anywhere else bet would 've watched baseball last night pete clark know n't games schedule , espn sometimes shows classic games previous season fill time slot \) l l e z l e b l u e ! ! ! joe ashkar contact blues saint louis jca2 cec1 wustl edu \( \) blues
ee virginia edu \( craig allen \) subject thumbs espn organization university virginia lines 7 everyone bitching hockey coverage espn almost like detroit toronto game televised last nite thankful see hockey night n't supposed carried thanks espn , matter televised game craig
subject remarks president clinton ncaa division champion hockey team nigel allen nigel allen canrem com reply nigel allen nigel allen canrem com distribution rec organization canada remote systems lines 158 press release white house remarks president clinton ncaa division champion hockey team april 19 q following national desk contact white house office press secretary , 202 456 2100 washington , april 19 following transcript remarks president clinton university maine black bears ncaa division hockey champions rose garden 9 58 edt president good morning ladies gentlemen 's honor welcome university maine black bears , winner ncaa division hockey national championship rose garden white house understand senator mitchell first team university maine every win national championship 're glad i'm inspired team pulled together win championship , entire state pulled together cheer onto victory coming state also relatively small size , also filled pride tradition community , understand people maine must feel black bears state people still talking time orange bowl number one ranked football team , back 1978 i'm sure 15 years , people maine proud team today know , state football slightly popular sport hockey n't lot ice \( laughter \) spending three months getting around town , understand little hockey came hockey tough game 's hard hitting sport one virtue though , 's penalty delay game wish rule senate \( laughter \) government hockey , leadership important united states senate , team great captain , majority leader senior senator maine , george mitchell junior senator cohen looks young , ca n't imagine \( laughter \) i'm actually bitter senator cohen looks much younger hockey team , captain jim montgomery done great job scored winning goal late championship game , leading come behind victory something else know little bit sport brings best individuals teams communities share pride senator mitchell senator cohen congressman andrews people maine must feel black bears shown us play team , bring best one another , come behind think 's important , ask young people around america achieved outstanding things working together , come white house recognized appreciated country , remember kinds values kinds virtues need ingrained us lives another role model , i'm glad today \( applause \) \( president presented team jersey \) \( applause \) president 's great love 's beautiful \( applause \) \( president presented autographed stick \) president thank 's great \( applause \) q mr president , authorize move waco morning , sir \? president aware think attorney general made decision think refer questions fbi q instructions executed \? president , made tactical decisions judgment , fbi q raid \? president want refer talk attorney general fbi knew going done , decisions entirely , tactical decisions q senator mitchell talk morning \? q chance stimulus package \? president senator mitchell ought pay quarter \( laughter \) \( laughter \) senator mitchell pay quarter president ready \( laughter \) senator mitchell , 's worth quarter day q chance bill , sir \? president talked going happen week senate meetings 're going rest week five minutes talk agreed 'd get back together later , around noon , talk q senator dole said weekend compromise compromise president well , know , , look , senator dole lot republicans senate voted kind thing ronald reagan 1983 research indicates majority time voted total 28 emergency spending measures 100 billion reagan bush president , administrations many purposes nearly worthy putting american people back work n't want go back revisit every one , look research position 're taking credible tough five year deficit reduction plan costs covered time people saying got paid n't much history base position 've got 12 years vote stimulus measures kind little putting american people back work think 've got chance work , i'm hopeful 'll see happens today tomorrow i'm feeling pretty good press thank end 10 10 edt 30 canada remote systems toronto , ontario 416 629 7000 629 7044
jrmst8 pitt edu \( joseph r mcdonald \) subject wirtz weenie organization university pittsburgh lines 27 article andrew cmu edu rp16 andrew cmu edu \( robert angelo pleshar \) writes tv news , penguins announced yesterday 3 fewer broadcast tv games , 22 \( ! \) games sort subscription pay per view system yuck incorrect year pens 61 games free tv 6 games ppv next year 62 games free tv 22 subscription basis actually get 1 free game last year , radio games good deal last year , everybody baldwin breaking team , goes way keep nucleus team together takes money comes creative way generate revenue afford team , people bitch everybody wants something nothing dean dean j badges \? badges \? \( using jrmst8 permission n't need owner , joe mcdonald \) badges !
shah pitt edu \( shah \) subject abc coverage distribution usa lines 28 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 joseph b stiehm \( joe13 pitt edu \) wrote one complaint jersey pitt series show shots , hits one occassion camera check along boards puck slot back show rebound maybe mom 's camera people little experienced joseph stiehm exactly biggest complaint coverage far follow damn puck ! ravi shah shah pitt edu la mu ideas approx translation music bring ideas continue forever electronic sound decibel non stop synthetic decibel
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject pat burns keywords leaf wings organization university toronto chemistry department lines 20 article jethro corp sun com jake rambler eng sun com writes leafs \? leaf supporter say leafs going four unless nothing short miracle stroke hits pat burns pat burns would \? pray wings become lazy wings lose series toronto cannot win take away doug gilmour leafs old tampa bay leafs deserve lot credit diligent effort regular season detroit puts reasonable effort , contest gerald
lmarsha cms cc wayne edu \( laurie marshall \) subject pat burns organization wayne state university , detroit mi u lines 30 nntp posting host cms cc wayne edu article jethro corp sun com jake rambler eng sun com \( jason cockroft \) writes suggestions clarke anderson gilmour vs sheppard \? \? andreychuck \? \? vs detroit checking line toronto 's checking line vs yzerman fedorov probert \( pray lots \) well , i'm wings fan think first thing get opponent 's line combinations correct try match anyone yzerman fedorov probert line , except maybe powerplay three players usually play three different lines would mean toronto 's checking line would pull triple shift lines usually look like gallant yzerman ciccarelli kozlov fedorov drake kennedy burr probert ysebaert primeau sheppard oh way start praying ! \) laurie marshall wayne state university detroit , michigan go wings ! ! ! ! !
franjion spot colorado edu \( john franjione \) subject bay area media \( wings leafs coverage \) nntp posting host spot colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 27 maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) writes dreier durban berkeley edu dreier durban berkeley edu \( roland dreier \) writes san francisco bay area media reporting tonight detroit red wings beat toronto maple leafs 6 3 someone part media conspiracy leafs tell game really went \( expecting 4 0 win leafs , shutout potvin , hat trick andreychuk goal 3 assists gilmour \) leafs really lost , many penalties whichever biased ref game call leafs let red wings win \? ah yes california san francisco bay area media report joe montana rumoured leading candidate replace fired san jose sharks coach george kingston \? apparently montana winning attitude , playing coach expected quarterback powerplay good comeback , rog quick wit intelligence continues amaze everyone john franjione department chemical engineering university colorado , boulder franjion spot colorado edu
maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) subject pat burns keywords leaf wings organization dept computer science , laurentian university , sudbury , lines 24 1993apr20 alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) writes pray wings become lazy wings lose series toronto cannot win take away doug gilmour leafs old tampa bay right gerald take away bob probert wings dead octopuses leafs deserve lot credit diligent effort regular season detroit puts reasonable effort , contest let 's wait body get cold start hm \? lost one game game detroit potvin best evening nobody saw thought leafs would sweep wings looks like might go six leafs take wings home advantage away next game cordially , always , maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca many morons rm little time
hammerl acsu buffalo edu \( valerie hammerl \) subject goalie masks organization ub lines 18 nntp posting host autarch acsu buffalo edu article 1993apr16 newshub ists ca dchhabra stpl ists ca \( deepak chhabra \) writes 'll give fuhr 's new one honourable mention , although n't seen closely yet \( looked good distance ! \) new buffalo one , second since 's sabres \? recall price tag 700 paint job mask , total price almost 1500 ouch valerie hammerl \( n \) event friends get hammerl acsu buffalo edu together , set fire , acscvjh ubms cc buffalo edu laugh sing frantically try v085pwwpz ubvms cc buffalo edu blow
hammerl acsu buffalo edu \( valerie hammerl \) subject octopus detroit \? organization ub lines 16 nntp posting host autarch acsu buffalo edu article 1993apr17 news clarkson edu farenebt logic camp clarkson edu \( droopy \) writes fact , tradition passed affiliate adirondack gm 6 last yr 's finals , 8 legged creature hurled onto frozen pond landed right feet ref lance roberts may passed toronto , 've even seen octopus aud last year 's bruins sabres game knew detroit version , seeing aud bit puzzling \) valerie hammerl \( n \) event friends get hammerl acsu buffalo edu together , set fire , acscvjh ubms cc buffalo edu laugh sing frantically try v085pwwpz ubvms cc buffalo edu blow
stamber rainbow ecn purdue edu \( kevin l stamber \) subject pens playoff radio coverage \( radio stations \) organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 18 article gp2011 m248 68 bgsu edu , gp2011 andy bgsu edu \( george pavlic \) writes ! 's \( \? \) behind one ted simmons \? saying goes , ai n't broke , n't fix i'm 230 miles home \( school year \) never able pick dve least sort make mike steigy say static kdka may enough reason transfer live home 's going announce dve anyway \? paulson \? \( kidding \) george n't kid around might listen kevin l stamber purdue university waiting hear new penguins theme
stamber rainbow ecn purdue edu \( kevin l stamber \) subject list tee times metropolitan toronto golf courses monday organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 6 \) kevin l stamber purdue university phil \( kid \) roam arena interviews
jpc philabs philips com \( john p curcio \) subject abc 's announcers , espn 's \( lack \) coverage \( atlanta \) originator jpc condor organization philips laboratories , briarcliff , ny 10510 lines 38 article 1993apr19 newshub ists ca , dchhabra stpl ists ca \( deepak chhabra \) writes ok , 's solution problem move canada yesterday able watch four games nj pitt 1 00 abc , la cal 3 00 \( cbc \) , buff bos 7 00 \( tsn fox \) , mon que 7 30 \( cbc \) think series goes max could watching hockey playoffs 40 odd consecutive nights \( n't counted 's pure guess \) worst thing exactly last year rangers msg , two different games scny sca time yes , 'd rather sc cover , amount coverage btw , abc great ! quite impressed seemed know audience n't likely well schooled hockey lore excellent job quite impartial also , imo think thorne earns money best part way earning sportschannel devils announcer \( e , unbiased \) goes goals , despite team scores , even excited \( possible \) great saves good job explaining certain things non hockey types without offending us follow sport \( unlike nbc 's clowns \) jpc \( ob playoff time flame bait \) n't pittsburgh fans tell mike lang \( e \) better maybe little spontaneous , rather reading lines b nothing hockey would better john p curcio go bruins ! philips laboratories jpc philabs philips com 345 scarborough road \( 914 \) 945 6442 briarcliff manor , ny 10510
lee139 gaul csd uwo ca \( steve lee \) subject list tee times metropolitan toronto golf courses monday organization computer science dept , univ western ontario , london , canada nntp posting host obelix gaul csd uwo ca lines 18 article euc noose ecn purdue edu stamber rainbow ecn purdue edu \( kevin l stamber \) writes kevin l stamber purdue university phil \( kid \) roam arena interviews woops ! rec sport hockey ! rec sport golf ! hope check newsgroup header next time posting ! steve steve lee university western ontario london , canada lee139 obelix gaul csd uwo ca
ingo sunee uwaterloo ca \( \) subject hockey hispanic market organization university waterloo distribution na lines 34 article bu edu icop csa bu edu \( antonio pera \) writes article saross01 starbase spd louisville edu , saross01 starbase spd louisville edu \( stacey ross \) writes c5i2s2 3bt odin corp sgi com rickc wrigley corp sgi com \( richard casares \) writes 'll hard time selling sport community ca n't play account availability financial reasons hockey pretty much sport white well crap \? i'm interested intelligent discussion ca n't answer question , say anyone else answer ques \? 's really crap know half crap \) understand 's expensive play hockey south border \( actually 's cheap hear either though 's 300 year actually played 8 years could bit \) states , ice time considerably expensive cost thousand year compare baseball 'll see hockey sport well brings fact well us majority white btw original question think hispanic playing hockey cheers ! ingo sunee uwaterloo ca violent body descartes uwaterloo ca contact sports ingo electrical watstar uwaterloo ca watch , lower class electrical watstar uwaterloo ca paul university waterloo opinion , probably would n't
hammerl acsu buffalo edu \( valerie hammerl \) subject nhl team captains organization ub lines 48 nntp posting host autarch acsu buffalo edu article 1993apr20 603 exu ericsson se lmcdapi noah ericsson se writes article andrew cmu edu , am2x andrew cmu edu \( anna matyas \) writes michael collingridge writes , subject , captain ever traded , resigned , striped title season \? team captain trivia would appreciated n't ron francis captain whalers traded pittsburgh \? mom chris chelios montreal 's co captain guy carbonneau traded chicago denis savard , peter stastny captain quebec nordiques traded new jersey also mark messier captain edmonton oilers traded new york dale hawerchuk winnipeg traded buffalo , captain \? think forget wayne \( know \) traded l captain n't strip wendel clark captaincy toronto \? buffalo seems started tradition trading captains pat lafontaine awarded captaincy mike ramsey forced give \( ramsey 's penguin \) ramsey inherited mike foligno \( 's leaf \) turn inherited ruff , went forget ruff , retired , guess 's streak started \? , danny captain , went detroit jim , gerry meehan , floyd smith others , reverse order , last first bit young time , i'm sure fate , ultimately went detroit boston meehan went vancouver , atlanta washington smith seems hung skates buffalo , n't know captaincy removed , many games played buffalo actually getting fascinating \) captaincy buffalo sure sign 're traded , almost , unless 're franchise player valerie hammerl \( n \) event friends get hammerl acsu buffalo edu together , set fire , acscvjh ubms cc buffalo edu laugh sing frantically try v085pwwpz ubvms cc buffalo edu blow
spiegel msd lmsc lockheed com \( mark spiegel \) subject bay area media \( wings leafs coverage \) organization personal opinions inc lines 41 article 1993apr20 ramsey cs laurentian ca maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) writes dreier durban berkeley edu dreier durban berkeley edu \( roland dreier \) writes san francisco bay area media reporting tonight detroit red wings beat toronto maple leafs 6 3 someone part media conspiracy leafs tell game really went \( expecting 4 0 win leafs , shutout potvin , hat trick andreychuk goal 3 assists gilmour \) leafs really lost , many penalties whichever biased ref game call leafs let red wings win \? ah yes california san francisco bay area media report joe montana rumoured leading candidate replace fired san jose sharks coach george kingston \? apparently montana winning attitude , playing coach expected quarterback powerplay close roger , banana , er \? ! \? murky news said kingston new quarterback i'm still trying determine kidding \) happen pound enuff sometime week 'll go back check idiot said column ought worth leafs , mean laughs i'm really depressed 'll read sf mark say mark spiegel spiegel lmsc lockheed com cow palace 108 k 8 \?
slegge kean ucs mun ca subject nhl team captains lines 12 organization memorial university st john 's nfld , canada nj , subject , captain ever traded , nj resigned , striped title season \? nj team captain trivia would appreciated mike foligno captain buffalo sabres traded toronto stephen legge slegge kean ucs mun ca
jupiter sun csd unb ca \( rocket \) subject nhl playoff leaders april 19 , 1993 organization university new brunswick distribution rec sport hockey lines 126 playoff leaders april 19 , 1993 player team gp g pts pim lemieux pit 1 2 2 4 0 0 juneau bos 1 1 3 4 0 0 noonan chi 1 3 0 3 0 0 mogilny buf 1 2 1 3 0 0 neely bos 1 2 1 3 0 0 brown stl 1 1 2 3 0 0 jagr pit 1 1 2 3 0 0 oates bos 1 0 3 3 0 0 carson la 1 2 0 2 0 0 hunter 1 2 0 2 0 0 stevens nj 1 2 0 2 0 0 cullen tor 1 1 1 2 0 0 hull stl 1 1 1 2 0 0 khristich 1 1 1 2 0 0 linden van 1 1 1 2 0 0 racine det 1 1 1 2 0 0 shanahan stl 1 1 1 2 0 0 sydor la 1 1 1 2 0 0 yzerman det 1 1 1 2 0 0 bure van 1 0 2 2 0 0 coffey det 1 0 2 2 0 0 drake det 1 0 2 2 0 0 emerson stl 1 0 2 2 0 0 g courtnall van 1 0 2 2 0 0 johansson 1 0 2 2 0 0 lapointe que 1 0 2 2 0 0 niedermayer nj 1 0 2 2 0 0 ramsey pit 1 0 2 2 0 0 sandstrom la 1 0 2 2 0 0 smehlik buf 1 0 2 2 0 0 stevens pit 1 0 2 2 0 0 adams van 1 1 0 1 0 0 barr nj 1 1 0 1 0 0 bellows mon 1 1 0 1 0 0 burr det 1 1 0 1 0 0 chiasson det 1 1 0 1 0 0 craven van 1 1 0 1 0 0 dahlquist cal 1 1 0 1 0 0 dionne mon 1 1 0 1 0 0 felsner stl 1 1 0 1 0 0 ferraro nyi 1 1 0 1 0 0 francis pit 1 1 0 1 0 0 gilmour tor 1 1 0 1 0 0 hannan buf 1 1 0 1 0 0 heinze bos 1 1 0 1 0 0 howe det 1 1 0 1 0 0 huddy la 1 1 0 1 0 0 king win 1 1 0 1 0 0 lafontaine buf 1 1 0 1 0 0 lefebvre tor 1 1 0 1 0 0 mcsorley la 1 1 0 1 0 0 millen la 1 1 0 1 0 0 ronning van 1 1 0 1 0 0 rucinsky que 1 1 0 1 0 0 sakic que 1 1 0 1 0 0 sheppard det 1 1 0 1 0 0 steen win 1 1 0 1 0 0 suter cal 1 1 0 1 0 0 sweeney buf 1 1 0 1 0 0 pit 1 1 0 1 0 0 yawney cal 1 1 0 1 0 0 young que 1 1 0 1 0 0 barnes win 1 0 1 1 0 0 borschevsky tor 1 0 1 1 0 0 brunet mon 1 0 1 1 0 0 chelios chi 1 0 1 1 0 0 ciccarelli det 1 0 1 1 0 0 clark tor 1 0 1 1 0 0 desjardins mon 1 0 1 1 0 0 dipietro mon 1 0 1 1 0 0 donnelly la 1 0 1 1 0 0 driver nj 1 0 1 1 0 0 duchesne que 1 0 1 1 0 0 ellett tor 1 0 1 1 0 0 elynuik 1 0 1 1 0 0 flatley nyi 1 0 1 1 0 0 fleury cal 1 0 1 1 0 0 gallant det 1 0 1 1 0 0 gill tor 1 0 1 1 0 0 granato la 1 0 1 1 0 0 gretzky la 1 0 1 1 0 0 guerin nj 1 0 1 1 0 0 hawerchuk buf 1 0 1 1 0 0 holik nj 1 0 1 1 0 0 housley win 1 0 1 1 0 0 janney stl 1 0 1 1 0 0 k brown chi 1 0 1 1 0 0 khmylev buf 1 0 1 1 0 0 krygier 1 0 1 1 0 0 larmer chi 1 0 1 1 0 0 macinnis cal 1 0 1 1 0 0 matteau chi 1 0 1 1 0 0 mceachern pit 1 0 1 1 0 0 mclean van 1 0 1 1 0 0 mcrae stl 1 0 1 1 0 0 mullen pit 1 0 1 1 0 0 muller mon 1 0 1 1 0 0 murphy pit 1 0 1 1 0 0 murzyn van 1 0 1 1 0 0 otto cal 1 0 1 1 0 0 pearson tor 1 0 1 1 0 0 pivonka 1 0 1 1 0 0 primeau det 1 0 1 1 0 0 probert det 1 0 1 1 0 0 reichel cal 1 0 1 1 0 0 ricci que 1 0 1 1 0 0 robitaille la 1 0 1 1 0 0 roenick chi 1 0 1 1 0 0 samuelsson pit 1 0 1 1 0 0 semak nj 1 0 1 1 0 0 shannon win 1 0 1 1 0 0 shuchuk la 1 0 1 1 0 0 sundin que 1 0 1 1 0 0 sutter chi 1 0 1 1 0 0 taylor la 1 0 1 1 0 0 tocchet pit 1 0 1 1 0 0 vaske nyi 1 0 1 1 0 0 maurice richard
slegge kean ucs mun ca subject leafs versus wings lines 46 organization memorial university st john 's nfld , canada long leafs play short handed still expected score \? fine killing first \( 2 men couple minutes one point \) could n't keep spent virtually entire game either short handed coming soon 'd get grouped , 're penalized ! sheesh like gilmour said 1st ca n't go calling every little push shove game like 're going , teams pearson \( one four favorite leafs \) played like bonehead saw personally screw least 2 good scoring opportunities , got bonehead 5 minute major high sticking penalty cullen gotten stronger since return injury hand full games ago played good game players line smarten , line okay clark 's got get tough 's got intimidate go net send clark left wing blue line couple times patented wrist shot put numbers board pearson heck , maybe benched hate repeat grapes , heck foligno \? zezel ca n't checking get move need speed ! keep potvin net , okay considering although \( like said couple weeks ago \) potvin messed couple games ahl playoffs last year easily prediction last week toronto 7 games det wins blow outs game tor wins close still stand n't , leafs fans , order win 7 , team win 3 ! \) burns going make magic 'll mix lines match wings line per line 'll team checking hard , 'll never let get numbered end leafs win wednesday night take 1 home games \( probably first one \) stephen leaf legge slegge kean ucs mun ca
spk hp com \( dennis \) subject \? octopus organization hewlett packard x newsreader tin version 1 1 4 pl6 lines 4 detroit game mon night octopus thrown ice meaning symbolism \? used throw fish ice spokane years ago never knew came
subject nhlpa poll \( partial stats results \) caldwell8102 mtroyal ab ca organization mount royal college , calgary , alberta lines 10 article andrew cmu edu young soo che andrew cmu edu writes people send polls take closer look njd , deep team , two capable goalies , excellent forwards defensemen shooter richer , around todd , chef stasny master thousand dishes , power play kevin todd oiler one months closely follow devils , anyway \? jeez alan
subject tie breaker \( isles devils \) caldwell8102 mtroyal ab ca organization mount royal college , calgary , alberta lines 21 article lrw509f rpi edu , wangr vccsouth22 rpi edu \( rex wang \) writes people stupid \? \? \? tie breaker , cause record people sooooo stuppid put win first list tie breaker \? \? \? tie breaker , different record \? \? \? \? man , thought people net good hockey might great math , tell two teams ahve points different record \? \? \? man retard ! ! ! ! ! ! ca n't believe people actually put win first tie breaker allow enlighten , rex see , 's thing called tie tie worth one point \( know , know 're good math bear \) win worth two points , getting two ties getting one win team played two games , one lost one , 'd two points team played two games tied , 'd also two points 'd tied standings even though records different perhaps learn something hockey posting \( starting sound like roger \? \) alan
ragraca vela acs oakland edu \( randy graca \) subject wings win organization oakland university , rochester , michigan , u lines 47 nntp posting host vela acs oakland edu gballent hudson uvic ca \( greg ballentine \) writes fine never said murray bad gm merely said n't best gm hockey even contender honor murray great claim wings would stanley cup probably great gm claim think missed one points takes great gm win stanley cup , even guys list gave earlier never one agree could probably argue back forth days avail best gm hockey matter opinion , say opinion better mine \? point original original post \( well stated \) murray gm abilities coaching abilities leads poor coach claim would intelligent enough hire coach push team next level success think point 's personal , emotional element involved transcends murray 's logical thought outsiders , 's fine us say , hire different coach fact , talked past , press \( detroit , least \) built business murray never getting past second round playoffs coach , think taken upon prove world capable coaching team past second round needs , papers say , get monkey back becomes matter intelligence , pride foolish let pride stand way sound logic \? perhaps , 're little way time time think eventually 'll step behind bench concentrate gm duties , team improve result think coaching duties take away time might otherwise spent gm work sense , steps coach , 'll see good gm really murray average \( \) nhl coach pretty good gm none true anyway may agree everything 've said , 's fun discussing gregmeister randy
mre teal eng sun com \( mike eisler \) subject schedule organization sun microsystems , mountain view , ca usa lines 25 nntp posting host teal article 1993apr20 news columbia edu gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) writes ca n't believe espn making sportschannel america look good ny , nj , philadelphia , chicago everywhere else , reason sportschannel available local baseball broadcasts local baseball pre empted nhl playoffs thus far playoff season , espn abc given hockey 2 days \( 1 game \) sportschannel \( 0 games \) people want hockey tv , watch hockey tv bet ratings hockey sunday abc went toilet next week , far fewer abc affiliates hockey someone thread said would n't watch games even tv , r h regular contributor ! north border need n't fear us game , us americans never figure market hockey support team support game mike eisler , mre eng sun com ``not leafs best team , fans even intelligent insightful pittsburgh 's players mighty bright , mean , really going get wallet back , right \? '' jan brittenson 3 93 , leaf pen woofers rec sport hockey
yaska eecg toronto edu \( yaska \) subject nords 3 habs 2 robbed ! ! organization csri , university toronto lines 92 article 1993apr19 newshub ists ca dchhabra stpl ists ca \( deepak chhabra \) writes article 18apr93 vm1 mcgill ca jbe5 jbe5 musicb mcgill ca writes aargh ! paul stewart worst biased ref presently nhl called total 4 penalties habs one nordiques penalty came stewart , ex nordique , looking call penalties habs letting nords get away murder robbed ! ! ! ! patrick roy reason game lost , ron hextall reason quebec everybody said would come goaltending , goaltending key , etc etc well , key n't quite fit 're montreal n't buy roy reason game tied would case dionne kept cool hextall gave 2 questionable goals dionne 's shots misplayed hextall , early game , one seems care roy stood head first 15 minutes game nords rushing end end kamensky 's mini break tying goal first shot young ot excellent chances stopped roy roy outplayed hextall game , roy becomes hextall hero roy 's team n't make full use opportunities hextall , hand , lot lucky bounces played well , haller shot post ot , rebound bouncing stick , brunet breakaway , 3 chances leclair opportunities finished montreal , cost hextall n't particularly brilliant plays blaming stewart excuse avoid facing fact roy allowed one worst goals could possibly allow even saw whole shot , dammit sure , excuse 1 goal timing stank , explosive team like quebec , gave 1 opportunity many powerplay totally unnecessary montreal played solid game \( although still n't know clear traffic front net loss schneider hurt even \) disagree roy played well n't screened whole night defense , 1st time season , played remarkably , keeping sakic , nolan , sundin slot night normally would say team blows 2 goal lead less five , let alone two , minutes go regulation time playoff game especially needs smacked upside collective heads n't think team loss \( although keane able clear zone prior first quebec goal \) certainly team loss leclair missed opportunities , bellows brunet dionne took bad penalty damphousse lebeau silent carbonneau savard step behind night roy gave bad goal roy , means , singled loss roy paid big money play looked like player industrial league sakic 's shot hextall n't dionne 's goal \? please roy paid big money value compared goalies still top 5 , consider defense , lack one , played front season demers start racicot next game , let damn team read papers next day two maybe article , possible montreal media quickest heap praise hurl derogatory comments habs better uninformed fans read papers \? played 58 minutes hockey shut quebec need tonight , rest series extra 2 red light face quebec rubbish 's guaranteed way end series 4 0 would taught lesson \? fans , media , racicot , perhaps certainly rest team n't think wrap around bad second goal also n't think scott young gotten around defender \( ca n't remember \) first place correct , n't gone regardless mean goal never gone , never ot , agree goal great piece work young roy near far posts covered , young flipped puck roy 's arm wrapped around net bad goal yaska ! yaska eecg toronto edu ! dept electrical computer engineering ! ! university toronto , toronto , canada
gp2011 andy bgsu edu \( george pavlic \) subject matt militzok please read ! organization bowling green state university b g , oh lines 13 article gp2011 m248 68 bgsu edu , gp2011 andy bgsu edu \( george pavlic \) wrote sorry everyone wasting space matt , day posted mailing list playoff stats lost address please put list thanks george sorry guess need address gp2011 mailserver bgsu edu
dragon acadiau ca \( donald smith \) subject list tee times metropolitan toronto golf courses monday organization acadia university lines 17 lee139 gaul csd uwo ca \( steve lee \) writes article euc noose ecn purdue edu stamber rainbow ecn purdue edu \( kevin l stamber \) writes woops ! rec sport hockey ! rec sport golf ! hope check newsgroup header next time posting ! steve lee university western ontario london , canada lee139 obelix gaul csd uwo ca actually steve , think refering leafs , expected hit acadia ! champions , 1993 ! donald smith dragon acadiau ca
sclark epas utoronto ca \( susan clark \) subject bay area media \( wings leafs coverage \) organization university toronto epas nntp posting host epas utoronto ca lines 11 yeah , news true leafs lost wings 6 3 wish could say 'd seen whole game husband wanted watch young guns ii another channel sometime first time tuned saw leafs tie next time tuned heard score 5 1 , something happened please woofing red wings fans 're third favourite team , make past leafs 'll wish luck potvin well , fist playoff game susan carroll clark likes anyone doug gilmour plays
steve sep stanford edu \( steve cole \) subject sharks kingston fired ! ! ! organization stanford exploration project lines 38 distribution world nntp posting host stanford edu article 1993apr20 adobe com , snichols adobe com \( sherri nichols \) writes article 1993apr20 leland stanford edu terry garfield stanford edu \( terry wong \) writes think jack ferreira 's firing eventually led kingston 's firing mention consistency vision think sharks lost loss ferreira never 3 headed g ever worked need one person making personnel decisions top , management committee conventional wisdom around league ferreira would made moves would fielded better product ice exactly would ferreira accomplished \? three headed gm ship taken lot heat , nobody 's explained things would different ferreira still would ferreira made trades \? would traded \? would made fewer trades \? traded \? think three headed gm 's guiding principle keep veterans favor youngsters offered significant advantage end last season , contracts several veterans somewhat contributions \( fenton , , anderson , couple others ca n't remember \) bought idea youngsters could play almost well , potential improve older guys traded mullen , wanted go , n't good enough , think bit optimistic thinking could make contributions example season , skriko brought trial basis kept , age thought decent contributor worth keeping around youth movement advantages look gaudreau might still kc veterans kept around find right balance steve cole \( steve sep stanford edu , apple ! sep ! steve \) department geophysics , stanford university , stanford , ca 94305
kozloce wkuvx1 bitnet subject tie breaker \( isles devils \) dir organization western kentucky university , bowling green , ky lines 25 article 1993apr18 ramsey cs laurentian ca , maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) writes lrw509f rpi edu wangr vccsouth22 rpi edu \( rex wang \) writes might great math , tell two teams ahve points different record \? \? \? man retard ! ! ! ! ! ! ca n't believe people actually put win first tie breaker well n't see smileys trying figure poster dog wordprocessor could n't neither smarter might great math cordially , always , maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca many morons rm little time roger \? lecture someone using smileys \? sweet lets go caps ! !
andrew idacom hp com \( andrew scott \) subject usenet playoff hockey pool game 1 standings organization idacom , division hewlett packard lines 224 standings game 1 divisional semi finals \( hey , look 's 4 ! \) 'll try post standings game \( e every two days \) managed recover email lost saturday night , i'm missing mail arrived early saturday morning sunday afternoon many people sent teams , may received two replies back team name list , please resend team 'll see kind proof sent weekend help case \) seriously , fun pool trust person honest , sorry inconvenience , hope pool still fun andrew usenet hockey playoff draft standings posn team pts rem last posn 1 scorers 43 25 \( \) 2 borg 42 25 \( \) dave wessels 42 25 \( \) 4 bruce 's rented mules 41 25 \( \) great expectations 41 25 \( \) hurricane andrew 41 25 \( \) jerky boys 41 24 \( \) homesick hawaiian 41 25 \( \) 9 give money monday 40 25 \( \) einstien 's punk band 40 25 \( \) 11 zipper heads 39 25 \( \) tapio repo 39 25 \( \) detroit 39 25 \( \) dead ducks 39 25 \( \) mike burger 39 25 \( \) test department 39 25 \( \) team elvis 39 25 \( \) craig team 39 25 \( \) 19 skate die 38 25 \( \) debbie bowles 38 25 \( \) fuzzfaces 38 25 \( \) 38 25 \( \) campi machine 38 25 \( \) zachmans wingers 38 25 \( \) sean forbes 38 25 \( \) 38 25 \( \) senators 38 25 \( \) team awesome 38 25 \( \) p bury 38 25 \( \) purdue ricks pens 38 25 \( \) gb flyers 38 25 \( \) seppo kemppainen 38 25 \( \) 33 paige faults 37 25 \( \) weenies 37 25 \( \) chris roney 37 25 \( \) rednecks hockey hell 37 25 \( \) dog 's hog 's 37 25 \( \) mind 37 25 \( \) teem kanada 37 25 \( \) northern lights 37 25 \( \) 37 25 \( \) delaware destroyers 37 25 \( \) mopar muscle men 37 25 \( \) lance hill boston bruins fa 37 25 \( \) garryola 37 25 \( \) brothers 37 25 \( \) sam dogs 37 25 \( \) cluster buster 37 24 \( \) jan stein 37 25 \( \) frank 's little 37 25 \( \) milton keynes kings 37 25 \( \) promise land 37 25 \( \) rangers destiny 37 25 \( \) 54 new zealand leafs 36 25 \( \) loaded weapons 36 25 \( \) bloom county stars 36 25 \( \) robarts research rebels 36 25 \( \) tiger chung 36 25 \( \) goddess fermentation 36 25 \( \) make beliefs 36 25 \( \) rob del 36 25 \( \) heikki 36 25 \( \) underwriters 36 25 \( \) muller n walker 36 25 \( \) controversy warriors 36 25 \( \) 36 25 \( \) norway 36 25 \( \) 36 25 \( \) buffalo soldiers 36 25 \( \) lemon pepper grizzly bears 36 25 \( \) frack attack 36 25 \( \) houdini 's magicians 36 25 \( \) rangers 1940 36 24 \( \) rangers blow 36 25 \( \) 75 dave 35 25 \( \) yan loke 35 25 \( \) canadian 35 25 \( \) littlest giants 35 25 \( \) alf 's stars 35 25 \( \) ice 35 25 \( \) beer makes expert 35 25 \( \) force 25 35 25 \( \) mr 35 25 \( \) 35 25 \( \) 35 25 \( \) rev 's rebels 35 25 \( \) 35 25 \( \) 35 25 \( \) kramer george jerry 35 25 \( \) 35 25 \( \) sludge 35 25 \( \) j 's 35 25 \( \) brians 35 25 \( \) grant marven 35 25 \( \) arctic circles 35 25 \( \) kane 's men 35 25 \( \) trevor 's triumph 35 25 \( \) mark steve dreaming 35 25 \( \) goaldingers 35 25 \( \) bjoern leaguen 35 25 \( \) habs playing golf 35 25 \( \) 102 34 25 \( \) new jersey rob 34 25 \( \) superstars 34 25 \( \) big bay bombers 34 25 \( \) doug bowles 34 25 \( \) neural netters 34 25 \( \) lippe 34 25 \( \) lets go 34 25 \( \) les 34 25 \( \) daves knee jerk picks 34 25 \( \) monica loke 34 25 \( \) jason team 34 25 \( \) 34 25 \( \) schott shooters 34 25 \( \) gilles carmel 34 25 \( \) 's lakers 34 25 \( \) smithw 34 25 \( \) east city jokers 34 25 \( \) daryl turner 34 25 \( \) doug 34 25 \( \) skriko wolves 34 25 \( \) 34 25 \( \) lamp lighters 34 25 \( \) thin ice 34 25 \( \) head 34 25 \( \) 127 samuel lau \( calgary , alberta \) 33 25 \( \) comfortably numb 33 25 \( \) fans oulu 33 25 \( \) gail 33 25 \( \) gee man 33 25 \( \) wait theres 33 25 \( \) 33 25 \( \) danielle leblanc 33 25 \( \) bobby fan club 33 25 \( \) ottawa 33 25 \( \) bets 33 25 \( \) triple x 33 25 \( \) timo ojala 33 25 \( \) flying pigs 33 25 \( \) 141 32 25 \( \) van isle colonists 32 25 \( \) commitments 32 25 \( \) bure 's blur 32 25 \( \) great scott 32 25 \( \) weasels 32 25 \( \) shooters 32 25 \( \) 32 25 \( \) 32 25 \( \) high stickers 32 25 \( \) mak paranjape 32 25 \( \) lord stanley 's 32 25 \( \) san jose mahi mahi 32 25 \( \) oz 32 25 \( \) e 32 25 \( \) mann mariners 32 24 \( \) dream team 32 25 \( \) stacey ross 32 25 \( \) louisiana psycho killers 32 25 \( \) la coupe stainless 32 25 \( \) 161 fighting amish 31 25 \( \) evan pritchard 31 25 \( \) stars 31 25 \( \) pens dynasty 31 25 \( \) 31 25 \( \) go go 31 25 \( \) 31 25 \( \) arm hammer 31 25 \( \) 31 25 \( \) chapman chaps 31 25 \( \) dean martin 31 25 \( \) cherry bombers 31 25 \( \) 173 's 30 25 \( \) anson mak 30 25 \( \) knights power play 30 25 \( \) 176 canuck force 29 25 \( \) butt ends 29 25 \( \) beam team 29 25 \( \) 29 25 \( \) chapman sticks 29 25 \( \) ken de 29 25 \( \) goons 29 25 \( \) tampere salami 29 25 \( \) sparky 's select 29 25 \( \) 185 hillside raiders 28 25 \( \) elephants 28 25 \( \) jane 's world 28 25 \( \) 28 25 \( \) 189 required 27 25 \( \) chip n dale 27 25 \( \) brian bergman 27 25 \( \) 192 killer kings 26 25 \( \) nords 26 25 \( \) 194 arsenal maple leafs 25 18 \( \) martin 's gag 25 25 \( \) 196 du 24 25 \( \) 197 lisa 's 23 25 \( \) andrew scott andrew idacom hp com hp idacom telecom operation \( 403 \) 462 0666 ext 253 roman era , 28 considered old
sanjuan \( p allen larsen \) subject canada 3 sweden 1 world nntp posting host sanjuan uvic ca organization university victoria , victoria b c canada lines 16 article venus cc hollandc pe ca white venus cc hollandc pe ca \( take baby ! \) writes today world championships munich , canada scored impressive 3 1 victory defending world champs , sweden believe 4 1 rod scored 19 59 third kevin white white venus cc hollandc pe ca p allen larsen university victoria sanjuan uvic ca
randolin polisci umn edu \( robert andolina \) subject minnesota scene nntp posting host polisci umn edu organization department political science , university minnesota lines 39 wondering happening minnesota seen local news \( tv newspaper \) , various people area trying get new hockey team columnist st paul pioneer press wrote article giving inside scoop issue three local sites competing team three possible move twin cities first sites target center , civic center \( st paul \) , yes , even met center columnist pretty confident minnesota get team , target center ultimately win argued , however , competition two sites delay process considerably without inter site competition , columnist \( sorry , ca n't remember name \) believes minnesota would team 1994 95 season also , situation , things delayed \( unless \) city minneapolis takes target center however , unlikely met center destroyed , city lose money competition met conventions short term events \( even hockey target \) add mess , study \( 6 12 months \) going conducted future viability met center , obviously delays process even hope study cancelled , effect knocking met center running perhaps encouraging minneapolis take target center sooner city would even wrecking ball taken met , may happen regarding possible candidates , three teams hartford , tampa bay , new jersey would prefer devils \( minnesota ice demons \? \) although lightning may potential although n't announced yet , looks like 6 neutral site games played target center next year apparently devils interested playing many six games possible , would n't surprised see hartford tampa show either , minnesota may end getting another team , may take years go sabres ! robert andolina \( former living minneapolis \) randolin polisci umn edu
gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) subject aargh ! great hockey coverage ! ! \( devils \) nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) organization phds hall lines 37 robbie po rap115 psuvm psu edu writes gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) says mean original poster looking devils victory tape delay , n't happen game 1 original poster , complaint coverage \( meaningless yankee game playoff devils game \) oh ! apologize misinterpreted ! problem , offence taken teams patrick , least dislike devils sad , lover sport , team metro new york area decade still exist non entity espn 's coverage anyways \? \? \? think starts tonight 're getting sabres bruins replacement game \( probably \) devils penguins game played scny islanders caps overflow game sca \( scny plus \) sabres bruins ends early 'll go devils penguins game \( assuming espn follows previous patterns got last minute islanders rangers overtime two weeks ago \) espn 's coverage started last night , accident , one writers pointed , could 've gone wild hog wrestling evening instead gld je souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go ! ! ! gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) subject schedule nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) organization phds hall lines 40 mre teal eng sun com \( mike eisler \) writes gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) writes ca n't believe espn making sportschannel america look good ny , nj , philadelphia , chicago everywhere else , reason sportschannel available local baseball broadcasts yes , point well taken however , even areas finally got games , 's something nagging back skull network national rights pocket says sports news , 's awesome overtime going quebec city , 'll try get update show know 's satellite 's somewhere people want hockey tv , watch hockey tv bet ratings hockey sunday abc went toilet today 's times , abc got great ratings chicago st louis \( 4 2 \) , kings flames got 2 9 west coast , 2 2 metro new york \( e , devils support year ago played rangers \) \) comparison , seniors golf better next week , far fewer abc affiliates hockey fear overall national numbers great ca n't tell abc advance marketing , 'cos n't watch much tv nhl made sure solid cable going air even espn could 've sold second rights third party systems \( e , non sportschannel \) since making extra money sitting games hockey fans necessarily watching pre season beach volleyball playoffs games n't shown somewhere gld je souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go ! ! ! gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
ching bigwpi wpi edu \( logistician \) subject 77 's \? organization worcester polytechnic institute lines 11 distribution world nntp posting host bigwpi wpi edu need players wearing 77 nhl know one , ray borque bruins help would greatly appreciated thanx logistician reigns supreme ! ! ! go blue ! ! ! go tigers ! ! ! go pistons ! ! ! go lions ! ! ! go red wings ! ! ! ching wpi wpi edu
kozloce wkuvx1 bitnet subject thumbs espn organization western kentucky university , bowling green , ky lines 12 agree great espn people show detroit game \( roommate sh threw octopus ice \( thanks explaining significance btw \) \) problem blotted local commentators baseball ads music especially wings player hit rut went boards shoulder blotted injury report , hats espn 'll make habit yeah right ! baseball seasons started \( zzzzzz \) \) lets go caps ! !
kozloce wkuvx1 bitnet subject atlanta hockey hell ! ! dir organization western kentucky university , bowling green , ky lines 18 someone give call \( maybe ted turner \) n't usa network covering playoffs years ago \? jim g oh back good old days lived florida \( florida sake ! ! \) could watch hockey every night espn usa coverage nights oh well guess would simple home office look back past solve problem present course n't complain least i'm getting watch playoffs change \( hooray ! ! \) espn schedulers realise teams except patrick \( sounds like dr book \) lets go caps ! !
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject pat burns keywords leaf wings organization university toronto chemistry department lines 14 article tsegw tse com mhembruc tsegw tse com \( mattias hembruch \) writes hell anderson \? anderson \( days past \) get peoples skin put little bluntly , anderson asshole used good need agreed anderson nowhere last night well expect burns playing krushelnyski baumgartner anderson unless play someone get puck finishing position ai n't going much scoring ! gerald
cs ualberta ca \( keith scott alan \) subject hockey coverage nntp posting host cs ualberta ca organization university alberta , edmonton canada lines 15 general question us readers extensive playoff coverage \? canada , almost impossible watch series tv \( ie two series opportunity watch year wash nyi chi stl , latter i'm wrong time zone ! \) \( canada \) basically swamped coverage , wonder many series games televised nationally even locally us much precedence take , say , local news games go double ot email waste bandwidth , please news feed kind slow anyways
vergolin lbs msu edu \( david vergolini \) subject probert organization michigan state university lines 6 nntp posting host lbs msu edu summary believe game two det tor series keywords fight break game two detroit toronto series game believe clark coming hitting believe probert take exception fight clark probert result know sounds kind ridiculous , know game two toronto come hitting takers issue \?
grogers slacvx slac stanford edu \( greg rogers \) subject hey , teh cannucks \? reply grogers slacvx slac stanford edu \( greg rogers \) organization stanford linear accelerator center lines 13 hi , due living bay area , unable see vancouver 's victory jets last night know score , rarely describes game could someone please post brief \( sp \? \) happened well team play \? cannucks deserving victory \? also , could kind soul please email end season , individual player stats \? greg vancouver cup \( virtual reality \)
dvb ssd kodak com \( dave \) subject pat burns organization eastman kodak company , rochester ny x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 30 jason cockroft \( jake rambler eng sun com \) wrote leafs \? leaf supporter say leafs going four unless nothing short miracle stroke hits root another team \) andreychuck borchevsky business playing wings small key leafs success clark centre andreychuk , small , slow like , maybe , 6'4 would consider small aside , big call known disappear come playoff time one main problems playing buffalo go leafs ! ! ! go sabres ! ! ! dave e mail dvb ssd kodak com \( 716 \) 253 7953 mail eastman kodak v b c plant , bldg 10 mc rochester , new york
wvnvms wvnet edu subject beat pens organization west virginia network educational telecomputing lines 6 ca n't good luck trying jim
ayari loria fr \( ayari iskander \) subject beat pittsburgh ! organization crin inria lorraine lines 55 article 1993apr15 guvax acc georgetown edu , apanjabi guvax acc georgetown edu writes article andrew cmu edu , robert angelo pleshar rp16 andrew cmu edu writes kfnjyea00uh i1vmus andrew cmu edu nntp posting host po5 andrew cmu edu reply kfnjyea00uh i1vmus andrew cmu edu anna matyas could clone chelios 's personality transplant defensemen islanders , capitals , devils gerald words , want turn assholes spend lots time penalty box get lots \? comes chelios fan yeah , also second team scoring play 35 minutes game play power play kill penalties best defenseman league 'd take whole team could \( way , one got penalty others could kill ! \) ralph beat pittsburgh \? \? \? mario lemieux death 1 much 2 slash skull 3 ask rangers \( slashing wrist \? \? \? \? \) ii jaromir jagr deportation 1 send back whatever commie country 's 2 tell bill clinton going iii kevin stevens fighting 1 call bob probert 2 call tie domi 3 call grandmother \( 'd kick ass \) since everybody wants see pittsburgh players playing , stanley cup would iskander ayari email iskander ayari loria fr ou ayari loria fr
subject smiths birthday goal leafs go way ! ! ! caldwell8102 mtroyal ab ca organization mount royal college , calgary , alberta lines 28 article mcs anl gov , mwm aps anl gov \( michael w mcdowell \) writes article undergrad math uwaterloo ca , descartes uwaterloo ca \( kevin c \) writes \( thanks goals steve smith \) n't see people n't blame grant fuhr goal smith put net , 's common play puck back goalie deep end little pressure offensive team fuhr position puck would never crossed line account , n't sound like even saw goal , mike smith came behind net fired pass hit fuhr back leg fuhr backing time never saw happened puck went straight fuhr 's leg net fuhr never chance play back goaltender , fact perry calgary dumped smith retrieving unfortunate happened smith nice guy rookie time , birthday blame lies starting pee wee coaches tell players never make cross ice pass front net much chance intercepted , hitting goaltender , whatever people say smith cost oilers series , say certainly n't cause team lose three games reason powerhouse team like edmonton tied late third period 7th game second round everybody team take responsibility even situation alan
subject potvin 's new goalie mask caldwell8102 mtroyal ab ca organization mount royal college , calgary , alberta lines 24 article allan swanlake , allan cs ualberta ca \( allan sullivan \) writes slegge kean ucs mun ca writes right guard hockey week tsn yesterday feature guy lot \( \? \) masks nhl goalies talked made , made , designs put , etc best one one never talked , held current leafs crest chin awesome looking black panther forehead new mask felix potvin , never said whose sure program current \? know grant fuhr black panther forehead mask played leafs would seem logical mask nickname cat , would go long ways towards explaining panther course , could old story mask , alan
ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( cave gods war , def \) subject help help help organization university buffalo lines 11 news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host ubvmsb cc buffalo edu anyone nhl standings march 28th \? need immediately project please post email thanks andy school architecture state university new york buffalo
schock cpsc ucalgary ca \( craig schock \) subject smiths birthday goal leafs go way ! ! ! organization university calgary computer science lines 26 article cpsc ucalgary ca layfield cpsc ucalgary ca \( colin layfield \) writes article mcs anl gov mwm aps anl gov writes article undergrad math uwaterloo ca , descartes uwaterloo ca \( kevin c \) writes \( thanks goals steve smith \) n't see people n't blame grant fuhr goal smith put net , 's common play puck back goalie deep end little pressure offensive team fuhr position puck would never crossed line mike mcdowell disagree one anything common 4 5 years watching hockey never seen happen ever sure league watching \) anyone else agree \? yes , colin agree 've put puck net way smith \( , mind \) definitely fault common play play puck way smith luckily , \) craig
jca2 cec1 wustl edu \( joseph charles achkar \) subject blues playoffs , beat tb 6 5 keywords blues , shanahan , joseph , hull , minnesota , tb nntp posting host cec1 organization washington university , st louis mo lines 127 dave post dispatch staff 9 11 thursday night , scoreboard watchers arena began cheer cheer quickly turned roar , finally , crowd 17 , 816 rose one rock old barn 5700 oakland avenue salute playoff bound blues scoreboard flashed news detroit red wings 5 , stars 3 north stars' loss , blues officially clinched fourth place final playoff spot norris division good thing , blues quit playing held 5 1 lead tampa bay detroit minnesota final appeared 3 minutes 52 remaining second period promptly went sleep barely held 6 5 victory nearly slipped away tampa 's bob beers tipped pass shawn chambers , officiating supervisor john video goal judge rich ruled shot gone net time expired glad n't see go end , blues coach bob berry said goal counted , 'd upset blues' disappearance final 24 minutes holding victory making playoffs tempered berry 's anger ``it n't pretty end , said ``we played 36 , 37 great minutes , good played year slipped away end n't , still , blues , prompting another ovation crowd game 's end despite shoddy effort third period turmoil season , blues still made playoffs 'll meet chicago blackhawks best seven norris division semifinal , beginning noon sunday chicago stadium blues finished regular season record 37 36 11 85 points , fourth consecutive plus 500 season minnesota finished three points behind fifth place , record 36 38 10 82 points tampa bay , played last week tying blues 2 2 tampa , ended first season record 23 54 7 53 points poor finish cast unnecessary shadow blues locker room instead , mood one relief disappointment ``it 's shame let , said kevin miller , one three blues score two goals brendan shanahan bob bassen others ``there need 'd kept working , would ended 6 2 everyone would happy instead , lot players happy make playoffs ``we , 's matters , said brett hull , scoreless minus 3 night got 4 0 , really tough play players n't problem ``just score announced , line n't quit , said rich sutter , played bassen miller ``we still game play ca n't allow five goals like , 's right ``it disappointing see going bassen almost bench blues' effort somehow , missed announcement minnesota 's loss ``i n't know final , said ``i kind looking around bench n't realize final reason 're playoffs , 's great , 's little disappointing play like end precisely reason berry instructed scoreboard operators keep minnesota detroit score board score showed 0 0 first popped detroit leading 4 2 third period blues already led 4 0 time ``i told n't want see score , n't want know score , berry said ``i felt win game , 's approach took minnesota took lead , berry feared , pressure win might bother blues detroit led , worried , blues might quit announcement , blues played shanahan got crowd going 10 44 first period , scoring 50th season , miller bassen took charge late period teams playing four four , miller broke left wing , defenseman roman hamrlik beat former blues goalie pat jablonski rebound shot 21 6 seconds remaining period , 10 5 seconds later , bassen long slap shot past jablonski defenseman rick zombo intercepted tampa pass neutral zone bassen made 4 0 14 seconds second period , scoring rebound bret hedican 's shot goal gave first two goal game season reminded special friend last year , bassen young oliver , died rare form cancer age 6 feb 23 ``i thinking buddy oliver , bassen said 's heaven , know watching know 's happy miller increased blues lead 5 0 break away goal set zombo 11 09 , steve maltais broke curtis joseph 's shutout 18 seconds later , making 5 1 less minute north stars' final announced , tim bergland scored cut lead 5 2 shanahan scored , converting pass nelson emerson 21 3 seconds remaining second period , lightning adam creighton scored 40 seconds third period , prompting berry rest overworked joseph guy hebert allowed goals shawn chambers cole span 1 21 midway third period goals chambers cole made shanahan 's second goal stand winner ``we , shanahan said ``the game \) l l e z l e b l u e ! ! ! joe ashkar contact blues saint louis jca2 cec1 wustl edu \( \) blues
bks2 cbnewsi cb att com \( bryan k strouse \) subject nhl results games played 4 14 93 organization keywords wednesday night 's boxscores lines 138 nhl results games played 4 14 93 standings patrick adams norris smythe tm w l pt tm w l pt tm w l pt tm w l pt 56 21 7 119 51 26 7 109 46 25 12 104 45 29 9 99 42 34 7 91 47 27 10 104 46 28 9 101 42 30 11 95 40 36 7 87 48 30 6 102 44 28 11 99 39 34 10 88 39 37 7 85 38 35 10 86 stl 36 36 11 83 39 37 7 85 phl 34 37 11 79 har 26 51 6 58 min 36 37 10 82 edm 26 49 8 60 nyr 34 38 11 79 ott 10 70 4 24 tb 23 53 7 53 sj 11 70 2 24 x clinched division title clinched playoff berth boston bruins \( 51 26 7 \) 2 2 0 4 ottawa senators \( 10 70 4 \) 0 1 1 2 1st period bos , roberts 5 \( juneau \) 7 19 bos , 1 \( juneau , oates \) 17 47 2nd period bos , neely 11 \( juneau , murphy \) 6 10 bos , hughes 5 \( richer , kimble \) 7 55 ott , 9 \( rumble , lamb \) 11 37 3rd period ott , boschman 9 \( kudelski \) 5 10 powerplay opportunities bruins 0 2 senators 0 4 shots goal bruins 13 11 10 34 senators 5 9 12 26 boston bruins moog \( 36 14 3 \) \( 8 shots 8 saves \) blue \( 9 38 second \) \( 18 shots 16 saves \) ottawa senators sidorkiewicz \( 8 46 3 \) \( 27 shots 23 saves \) berthiaume \( 6 36 third \) \( 7 shots 7 saves \) att 10 , 500 washington capitals \( 42 34 7 \) 0 0 2 2 new york rangers \( 34 38 11 \) 0 0 0 0 1st period none 2nd period none 3rd period , bondra 36 \( pivonka , cavallini \) 6 54 , bondra 37 \( cote , pivonka \) 10 10 powerplay opportunities capitals 0 2 rangers 0 1 shots goal capitals 16 11 12 39 rangers 8 7 8 23 washington capitals tabaracci \( 7 11 0 \) \( 23 shots 23 saves \) new york rangers richter \( 13 17 3 \) \( 39 shots 37 saves \) att 17 , 897 new york islanders \( 39 37 7 \) 2 1 1 0 4 hartford whalers \( 26 51 6 \) 2 1 1 1 5 1st period nyi , ferraro 13 \( malakhov , king \) 1 29 nyi , hogue 32 \( thomas , turgeon \) 1 57 har , yake 21 \( poulin \) 4 15 har , yake 22 \( nylander , poulin \) 16 44 2nd period har , verbeek 39 \( cassels , weinrich \) \( pp \) 2 43 nyi , thomas 35 \( king , ferraro \) 7 58 3rd period har , burt 5 \( sanderson , cassels \) 13 41 nyi , malakhov 14 \( hogue \) 17 45 overtime har , janssens 12 \( poulin \) 1 08 powerplay opportunities islanders 0 3 whalers 1 3 shots goal islanders 16 8 7 1 32 whalers 7 13 7 1 28 new york islanders fitzpatrick \( 16 15 5 \) \( 28 shots 23 saves \) hartford whalers \( 1 0 1 \) \( 32 shots 28 saves \) att 10 , 915 pittsburgh penguins \( 56 21 7 \) 2 3 1 0 6 new jersey devils \( 40 36 7 \) 2 4 0 0 6 1st period pit , daniels 5 \( needham , tippett \) 4 14 njd , c lemieux 29 \( semak , driver \) 10 19 pit , k stevens 55 \( tocchet , murphy \) \( pp \) 12 40 njd , zelepukin 22 \( driver , niedermayer \) 17 26 2nd period pit , lemieux 68 \( stevens , tocchet \) 1 42 njd , semak 36 \( c lemieux , zelepukin \) 2 27 pit , mceachern 28 \( jagr , barrasso \) 4 24 njd , stevens 12 \( guerin , pellerin \) 5 45 pit , lemieux 69 \( sh \) 12 40 njd , richer 37 \( nicholls \) 15 53 njd , c lemieux 30 \( semak , zelepukin \) 17 40 3rd period pit , mullen 33 \( jagr , lemieux \) 18 54 overtime none powerplay opportunities penguins 1 5 devils 0 3 shots goal penguins 9 11 8 2 30 devils 12 15 9 3 39 pittsburgh penguins barrasso \( 43 14 5 \) \( 39 shots 33 saves \) new jersey devils billington \( 21 14 4 \) \( 30 shots 24 saves \) att 14 , 796 spike
layfield cpsc ucalgary ca \( colin layfield \) subject smiths birthday goal leafs go way ! ! ! organization university calgary computer science lines 23 article mcs anl gov mwm aps anl gov writes article undergrad math uwaterloo ca , descartes uwaterloo ca \( kevin c \) writes \( thanks goals steve smith \) n't see people n't blame grant fuhr goal smith put net , 's common play puck back goalie deep end little pressure offensive team fuhr position puck would never crossed line mike mcdowell disagree one anything common 4 5 years watching hockey never seen happen ever sure league watching \) anyone else agree \? colin layfield religion sex power plays , manipulate people money pay , university calgary selling skin , selling god computer science numbers look credit cards ! layfield cpsc ucalgary ca queensryche
jpc philabs philips com \( john p curcio \) subject european expansion f cked system originator jpc condor organization philips laboratories , briarcliff , ny 10510 lines 29 long would support teams run ranger based corporate thinking \( use term lightly \) \( n't need good product nyc would fill arena ottawa 's record every year 1940 ! ! haha \( sorry , ta say \) \) look long maple leafs nordiques used similar logic fielded bad teams solely field bad teams , maple leafs \( certain dead man charge \) one cheapest teams history sport guess immensely popular gate nordiques also done well team missed playoffs many years row look british \( european \) soccer example \( never fan problems \) ha ! humor ! major fan problems , namely occasion n't make home match ! soccer fans tend fanatical , much like montreal fans firebomb players coaches houses play jpc john p curcio go bruins ! philips laboratories jpc philabs philips com 345 scarborough road \( 914 \) 945 6442 briarcliff manor , ny 10510
jpc philabs philips com \( john p curcio \) subject tv schedule next week originator jpc condor organization philips laboratories , briarcliff , ny 10510 distribution na lines 23 article apr16 yuma acns colostate edu , mmb lamar colostate edu \( michael burger \) writes united states tv schedule april 18 devils islanders pittsburgh 1 est abc \( eastern time zone \) april 18 st louis chicago 12 cdt abc \( cent mou time zones \) april 18 los angeles calgary 12 pdt abc \( pacific time zone \) april 20 devils islanders pittsburgh 7 30 espn april 22 tba 7 30 espn april 24 tba 7 30 espn anyone know alternate games cities local broadcast rights protected \? 'd really love see bruins couple times , pro patrick bias shown espn something tells wait conference finals see jpc john p curcio go bruins ! philips laboratories jpc philabs philips com 345 scarborough road \( 914 \) 945 6442 briarcliff manor , ny 10510
saz hook corp mot com \( scott zabolotzky \) subject hawks return finals ! ! ! ! ! organization motorola , inc nntp posting host 129 188 122 164 lines 24 article itg uxa ecn bgu edu uxa ecn bgu edu \( brian johnson \) writes well hawks division road little easier playoffs let toronto detroit beat hell chicago sweeps st louis makes easier second round rest get tor det getting none conf champ hard time versus division div pretty battered also advantage goes hawks bring pitt sure hawks probably lose better get far lose go brian hopefully , miracle \( k quite miracle , close ! \) occur pittsburgh prior finals make , probably keep cup n't , 's turn ! go blackhawks ! ! congrats jeremy roenick 2nd hawks player post back back 50 goal seasons ! ! scott
jca2 cec1 wustl edu \( joseph charles achkar \) subject hawks return finals ! ! ! ! ! nntp posting host cec1 organization washington university , st louis mo lines 22 article itg uxa ecn bgu edu uxa ecn bgu edu \( brian johnson \) writes well hawks division road little easier playoffs let toronto detroit beat hell chicago sweeps st louis makes easier brian n't sure , blues played hawks pretty well season , twice stadium blues give hawks hard time series one best first round matchups , could go either way hawks probably prevail seven games \) l l e z l e b l u e ! ! ! joe ashkar contact blues saint louis jca2 cec1 wustl edu \( \) blues
c5ff jupiter sun csd unb ca \( cook charlie \) subject nhl summary parse results games played , april 15 , 1993 organization university new brunswick lines 278 philadelphia 1 2 4 7 buffalo 0 3 1 4 first period 1 , philadelphia , recchi 52 \( galley , lindros \) 0 18 second period 2 , philadelphia , hawgood 11 \( dineen , eklund \) pp , 2 15 3 , philadelphia , dineen 33 \( mcgill \) sh , 5 40 4 , buffalo , barnaby 1 \( hawerchuk , smehlik \) pp , 7 48 5 , buffalo , wood 18 \( lafontaine , ledyard \) pp , 17 34 6 , buffalo , mogilny 75 \( hawerchuk , carney \) pp , 18 56 third period 7 , philadelphia , eklund 11 \( dineen , beranek \) 4 42 8 , buffalo , mogilny 76 \( errey , lafontaine \) 5 24 9 , philadelphia , dineen 34 \( brind'amour \) pp , 6 44 10 , philadelphia , dineen 35 \( brind'amour , galley \) sh , 8 39 11 , philadelphia , acton 8 \( dineen , brind'amour \) 19 48 philadelphia 7 power play 5 2 special goals pp 2 sh 2 total 4 scorer g pts acton 1 0 1 beranek 0 1 1 brind'amour 0 3 3 dineen 3 3 6 eklund 1 1 2 galley 0 2 2 hawgood 1 0 1 lindros 0 1 1 mcgill 0 1 1 recchi 1 0 1 buffalo 4 power play 10 3 scorer g pts barnaby 1 0 1 carney 0 1 1 errey 0 1 1 hawerchuk 0 2 2 lafontaine 0 2 2 ledyard 0 1 1 mogilny 2 0 2 smehlik 0 1 1 wood 1 0 1 minnesota 1 1 1 3 detroit 0 2 3 5 first period 1 , minnesota , mcphee 18 \( ludwig \) 1 23 second period 2 , minnesota , dahlen 34 \( courtnall , gagner \) pp , 0 31 3 , detroit , drake 18 \( howe , ogrodnick \) 9 14 4 , detroit , ysebaert 34 \( lidstrom , howe \) pp , 17 37 third period 5 , detroit , ciccarelli 41 \( coffey , chiasson \) pp , 0 32 6 , detroit , kennedy 19 \( burr , probert \) 3 42 7 , detroit , yzerman 58 \( ciccarelli , gallant \) 6 17 8 , minnesota , dahlen 35 \( courtnall , gagner \) 19 11 detroit 5 power play 4 2 scorer g pts burr 0 1 1 chiasson 0 1 1 ciccarelli 1 1 2 coffey 0 1 1 drake 1 0 1 gallant 0 1 1 howe 0 2 2 kennedy 1 0 1 lidstrom 0 1 1 ogrodnick 0 1 1 probert 0 1 1 ysebaert 1 0 1 yzerman 1 0 1 minnesota 3 power play 2 1 scorer g pts courtnall 0 2 2 dahlen 2 0 2 gagner 0 2 2 ludwig 0 1 1 mcphee 1 0 1 edmonton 0 0 0 0 winnipeg 1 2 0 3 first period 1 , winnipeg , shannon 20 \( steen , davydov \) pp , 2 08 second period 2 , winnipeg , selanne 76 \( olausson \) 5 25 3 , winnipeg , zhamnov 25 \( selanne \) 19 42 third period scoring winnipeg 3 power play 6 1 scorer g pts davydov 0 1 1 olausson 0 1 1 selanne 1 1 2 shannon 1 0 1 steen 0 1 1 zhamnov 1 0 1 edmonton 0 power play 3 0 scoring toronto 1 1 0 2 chicago 0 2 1 3 first period 1 , toronto , baumgartner 1 \( unassisted \) 18 40 second period 2 , chicago , roenick 50 \( murphy , chelios \) 1 29 3 , toronto , andreychuk 55 \( mironov , lefebvre \) 13 22 4 , chicago , murphy 7 \( roenick , chelios \) pp , 19 05 third period 5 , chicago , matteau 15 \( unassisted \) 10 51 error power play goal mismatch assuming calc value error team toronto calc 0 read 1 chicago 3 power play 7 1 scorer g pts chelios 0 2 2 matteau 1 0 1 murphy 1 1 2 roenick 1 1 2 toronto 2 power play 3 0 scorer g pts andreychuk 1 0 1 baumgartner 1 0 1 lefebvre 0 1 1 mironov 0 1 1 first period 1 , st louis , shanahan 50 \( brown , felsner \) 10 44 2 , st louis , miller 23 \( bassen , brown \) 19 38 3 , st louis , bassen 8 \( zombo \) 19 48 second period 4 , st louis , bassen 9 \( hedican , miller \) 0 14 5 , st louis , miller 24 \( zombo , hedican \) 11 09 6 , tampa bay , maltais 7 \( hamrlik \) 11 27 7 , tampa bay , bergland 3 \( , gilhen \) 17 16 8 , st louis , shanahan 51 \( emerson \) 19 38 third period 9 , tampa bay , creighton 19 \( bergland , \) 0 40 10 , tampa bay , chambers 10 \( zamuner , cole \) 10 37 11 , tampa bay , cole 12 \( beers , bradley \) 11 58 st louis 6 power play 4 0 scorer g pts bassen 2 1 3 brown 0 2 2 emerson 0 1 1 felsner 0 1 1 hedican 0 2 2 miller 2 1 3 shanahan 2 0 2 zombo 0 2 2 tampa bay 5 power play 3 0 scorer g pts beers 0 1 1 0 1 1 bergland 1 1 2 bradley 0 1 1 chambers 1 0 1 cole 1 1 2 creighton 1 0 1 gilhen 0 1 1 hamrlik 0 1 1 0 1 1 maltais 1 0 1 zamuner 0 1 1 san jose 0 1 2 3 calgary 0 4 3 7 first period scoring second period 1 , san jose , garpenlov 22 \( odgers , gaudreau \) pp , 3 37 2 , calgary , nieuwendyk 38 \( macinnis , suter \) pp , 5 26 3 , calgary , ranheim 21 \( otto , suter \) 10 43 4 , calgary , yawney 1 \( nieuwendyk , roberts \) 11 26 5 , calgary , berube 4 \( paslawski , skrudland \) 13 45 third period 6 , san jose , wood 1 \( odgers , kisio \) 8 00 7 , calgary , reichel 40 \( unassisted \) 9 26 8 , calgary , roberts 38 \( musil , paslawski \) pp , 12 27 9 , san jose , kisio 26 \( unassisted \) 13 10 10 , calgary , paslawski 18 \( ashton , stern \) 16 16 calgary 7 power play 4 2 scorer g pts ashton 0 1 1 berube 1 0 1 macinnis 0 1 1 musil 0 1 1 nieuwendyk 1 1 2 otto 0 1 1 paslawski 1 2 3 ranheim 1 0 1 reichel 1 0 1 roberts 1 1 2 skrudland 0 1 1 stern 0 1 1 suter 0 2 2 yawney 1 0 1 san jose 3 power play 3 1 scorer g pts garpenlov 1 0 1 gaudreau 0 1 1 kisio 1 1 2 odgers 0 2 2 wood 1 0 1 vancouver 1 2 5 8 los angeles 2 3 1 6 first period 1 , los angeles , robitaille 63 \( gretzky , sandstrom \) 1 39 2 , vancouver , babych 3 \( craven , nedved \) pp , 9 43 3 , los angeles , sandstrom 25 \( gretzky , robitaille \) 10 06 second period 4 , vancouver , linden 32 \( ronning , courtnall \) pp , 0 54 5 , vancouver , ward 22 \( hunter , nedved \) 1 24 6 , los angeles , gretzky 16 \( sandstrom , robitaille \) 6 57 7 , los angeles , zhitnik 12 \( kurri , robitaille \) pp , 14 02 8 , los angeles , millen 23 \( hardy \) pp , 16 57 third period 9 , vancouver , ronning 27 \( dirk \) 5 28 10 , vancouver , ronning 28 \( courtnall , linden \) pp , 11 15 11 , vancouver , linden 33 \( courtnall , ronning \) 11 27 12 , los angeles , donnelly 29 \( millen , granato \) pp , 14 35 13 , vancouver , courtnall 31 \( ronning , ratushny \) 14 54 14 , vancouver , ronning 29 \( linden , diduck \) en , 18 47 vancouver 8 power play 6 3 special goals pp 3 en 1 total 4 scorer g pts babych 1 0 1 courtnall 1 3 4 craven 0 1 1 diduck 0 1 1 dirk 0 1 1 hunter 0 1 1 linden 2 2 4 nedved 0 2 2 ratushny 0 1 1 ronning 3 3 6 ward 1 0 1 los angeles 6 power play 10 3 scorer g pts donnelly 1 0 1 granato 0 1 1 gretzky 1 2 3 hardy 0 1 1 kurri 0 1 1 millen 1 1 2 robitaille 1 3 4 sandstrom 1 2 3 zhitnik 1 0 1
gtd597a prism gatech edu \( hrivnak \) subject goalie mask update organization georgia institute technology lines 29 results three days voting remember 3pts 1st , 2 2nd , 1 3rd also , still turn votes ! guy n't regular goalie retired , please include team ! thanks time , keep sending votes ! player team pts votes 1 brian hayward san jose 15 6 andy moog boston 15 6 3 curtis joseph st louis 11 5 4 ed belfour chicago 10 5 5 gerry cheevers boston \( retired \) 5 3 manon rheaume atlanta \( ihl \) 5 2 ron hextall quebec 5 2 8 beaupre washington 4 2 others receiving 1 vote irbe \( sj \) , tim cheveldae \( det \) , clint \( buf sd , ihl \) , grant fuhr \( buf \) , rick wamsley \( tor , ret \) , jon casey \( minn \) , john vanbiesbrouck \( nyr \) , ken dryden \( mon , ret \) , bob essensa \( win \) , mike vernon \( cal \) , glenn healy \( nyi \) , tommy \( \? \? \? \) , ray leblanc \( usa \) go skins ! next question emotional music quite go braves ! effect \? mike patton , faith go hornets ! go capitals ! mike friedman \( hrivnak fan ! \) internet gtd597a prism gatech edu
farenebt logic camp clarkson edu \( droopy \) subject ahl calder cup playoff schedule results organization clarkson university lines 61 nntp posting host logic clarkson edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 1993 calder cup playoff schedule results home team caps necesary first round springfield indians vs providence bruins gm 1 springfield 3 providence 2 gm 2 springfield 5 providence 4 gm 3 4 16 providence springfield cd islanders vs adirondack red wings gm 1 last night , cdi adirondack gm 2 4 17 cdi adirondack gm 3 4 18 adirondack cdi gm 4 4 21 adirondack cdi gm 5 4 23 cdi adirondack gm 6 4 24 adirondack cdi gm 7 4 26 cdi adirondack baltimore skipjacks binghamton rangers gm 1 4 16 baltimore binghamton gm 2 4 17 baltimore binghamton gm 3 4 23 binghamton baltimore gm 4 4 24 binghamton baltimore gm 5 4 26 baltimore binghamton gm 6 4 28 binghmaton baltimore gm 7 4 30 baltimore binghamton utica devils vs rochester americans gm 1 4 16 utica rochester gm 2 4 17 utica rochester gm 3 4 20 rochester utica gm 4 4 22 rochester utica gm 5 4 24 utica rochester gm 6 4 26 rochester utica gm 7 4 28 utica rochester moncton hawks vs st john 's maple leafs gm 1 st john 's 4 moncton 2 gm 2 4 17 moncton vs st john 's halifax gm 3 4 21 st john 's moncton cape breton oilers vs fredericton canadiens gm 1 fredericton 4 cape breton 3 \( 2ot \) gm 2 4 16 cape breton fredericton unfortunately newspaper didnt list complete playoff series already began also , paper listed final standings posting might delayed early next week \( hockey news \) bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl ecac contact rec sport hockey go usa hockey ! adirondack red wings , calder cup champs '81 '86 '89 '92 clarkson hockey , ecac tournament champs '66 '91 '93 glens falls high hockey , ny division ii state champs '90 '91 ahl fans join ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu congrats boston bruins , 1992 93 adams division champions phoenix suns , 1992 93 pacific division champions
bdown vis toronto edu \( brian \) subject bridgman organization department computer science , university toronto lines 31 gandalf ca \( stephane \) writes senators fired mel bridgman 1 00 pm today randy sexton gonna replace move organization front office stated nobody would lose job poor performance , gone within 24 hours teams final game yes know screwed letting king 's grab sexton 's qualifications \( aside cheap \) \? \? played us college hockey , 's pals club president bruce kind experience need trying build expansion franchise 'll probably hall fame next year ! \) continues tradition front office paul arena deal denis potvin gm postion mike bossy scoring coach people ottawa feel club run \? \? stephane brian \( bdown vis toronto edu \)
klaty engin umich edu \( brad alan klaty \) subject goalies organization university michigan engineering , ann arbor lines 10 distribution world nntp posting host engin umich edu originator klaty engin umich edu 've heard score belfour shooting high goes lot , potvin shooting high getting rebound plays deep net truth \? brad wings fan , predictions
yatrou telecom ca \( paul yatrou \) subject stop predicting organization bell northern research montreal , canada lines 22 1993apr16 ncsu edu cdkaupan eos ncsu edu \( carl david kaupang \) writes really annoying see predictions net really cares think win \? please stop predictions , know caps going win cup , let go david kaupang cdkaupan eos ncsu edu yeah , first deal devils , 've number year i'm saying caps n't good team \( 've thorn habs side past 10 years ! ! ! \) , wo n't get past nj paul yatrou yatrou telecom ca \( running pool today , wish luck ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! \)
dwarf bcarh601 bnr ca \( w jim jordan \) subject truly sad day hockey nntp posting host bcarh601 organization bell northern research ltd , ottawa , ontario , canada lines 19 farewell , minnesota fans get stuffed , dallas stars north stars fade black , hope minneapolis st paul long without nhl team seems right amateur hockey usa nhl team well loss team certainly fault fans \( though start 1989 90 season made look real bad \) wish kept north stars cap bought maple leaf gardens morning eliminated montreal 1980 \( got spite montreal fans small town grew \) glorious season north stars ! dwarf w jim jordan n't mean tell live dwarf bnr ca \( internet \) life 's tv 's work bnr speak n't believe jesus , 'd going hell peter heath
hammerl acsu buffalo edu \( valerie hammerl \) subject goalie mask update organization ub lines 19 nntp posting host lictor acsu buffalo edu article hydra gatech edu gtd597a prism gatech edu \( hrivnak \) writes results three days voting remember 3pts 1st , 2 2nd , 1 3rd also , still turn votes ! guy n't regular goalie retired , please include team ! thanks time , keep sending votes ! glenn healy \( nyi \) , tommy \( \? \? \? \) , ray leblanc \( usa \) soderstrom plays philly , n't mask 's got helmet cage variety , white least 's wore thirteen hours ago valerie hammerl days remind 's hammerl acsu buffalo edu mario lemieux herb brooks claude acscvjh ubms cc buffalo edu lemieux , top scorer devils , v085pwwpz ubvms cc buffalo edu known taking dumb penalties
c5ff jupiter sun csd unb ca \( cook charlie \) subject ahl season review \( ice stuff \) organization university new brunswick lines 14 article 1993apr16 news clarkson edu farenebt craft camp clarkson edu \( droopy \) writes senators sold stuff deleted senators currently serious negotiations charlottetown new brunswick expected move announced senators move ahl franchise charlottetown , p e \( prince edward island \) , new brunswick charlie cook charlie calvin cs unb ca
yvon ramsey cs laurentian ca \( yvon \) subject hot , cold streaks \? \? \? organization dept computer science , laurentian university , sudbury , lines 14 ok guys , need list teams hot cold last 25 games n't need accurate , rough guess i'm enter playoff pool want know hot going playoffs n't need mention pittsburgh ca n't get hotter p need sunday yvon
farenebt craft camp clarkson edu \( droopy \) subject ahl playoff results \( 4 15 \) organization clarkson university lines 70 nntp posting host craft clarkson edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 game \( \) 4 15 adirondack 6 cdi 2 \( adirondack leads series , 1 0 \) first round springfield indians vs providence bruins gm 1 springfield 3 providence 2 gm 2 springfield 5 providence 4 gm 3 4 16 providence springfield gm 4 4 17 providence springfield gm 5 4 22 springfield providence gm 6 4 24 providence springfield gm 7 4 27 springfield providence cd islanders vs adirondack red wings gm 1 adirondack 6 cdi 2 gm 2 4 17 cdi adirondack gm 3 4 18 adirondack cdi gm 4 4 21 adirondack cdi gm 5 4 23 cdi adirondack gm 6 4 24 adirondack cdi gm 7 4 26 cdi adirondack baltimore skipjacks binghamton rangers gm 1 4 16 baltimore binghamton gm 2 4 17 baltimore binghamton gm 3 4 23 binghamton baltimore gm 4 4 24 binghamton baltimore gm 5 4 26 baltimore binghamton gm 6 4 28 binghmaton baltimore gm 7 4 30 baltimore binghamton utica devils vs rochester americans gm 1 4 16 utica rochester gm 2 4 17 utica rochester gm 3 4 20 rochester utica gm 4 4 22 rochester utica gm 5 4 24 utica rochester gm 6 4 26 rochester utica gm 7 4 28 utica rochester moncton hawks vs st john 's maple leafs gm 1 st john 's 4 moncton 2 gm 2 4 17 moncton vs st john 's halifax gm 3 4 21 st john 's moncton gm 4 4 23 st john 's moncton gm 5 4 26 moncton vs st john 's halifax gm 6 4 28 st john 's moncton gm 7 4 30 moncton vs st john 's halifax cape breton oilers vs fredericton canadiens gm 1 fredericton 4 cape breton 3 \( 2ot \) gm 2 4 16 cape breton fredericton gm 3 4 20 fredericton cape breton gm 4 4 22 fredericton cape breton gm 5 4 24 cape breton fredericton gm 6 4 26 fredericton cape breton gm 7 4 28 cape breton fredericton bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl ecac contact rec sport hockey go usa hockey ! adirondack red wings , calder cup champs '81 '86 '89 '92 clarkson hockey , ecac tournament champs '66 '91 '93 glens falls high hockey , ny division ii state champs '90 '91 ahl fans join ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu congrats boston bruins , 1992 93 adams division champions phoenix suns , 1992 93 pacific division champions
gballent hudson uvic ca \( greg ballentine \) subject plus minus stat nntp posting host hudson uvic ca reply gballent hudson uvic ca organization university victoria , victoria , bc , canada lines 23 article blue cis pitt edu , jrmst8 pitt edu \( joseph r mcdonald \) writes jagr higher , francis points take informed observer , ronnie francis much better season jaromir jagr take anything away jaro , decent year \( although n't live expectations \) bowman tended francis times bowman style player plays hard times , n't disregard defensive responsibilities good leader bowman rewarded increasing ice time jagr arrogant juvenile display first attitude rubbed bowman wrong way caused lose ice time throughout year , francis consistently recieved ice time jagr never seen stats subject , pretty sure jagr points per minute played francis add jagr 's better rating , think becomes evident jagr better season francis bad one gregmeister
dchhabra stpl ists ca \( deepak chhabra \) subject goalie masks nntp posting host stpl ists ca organization solar terresterial physics laboratory , ists lines 21 article netnews upenn edu kkeller mail sas upenn edu \( keith keller \) writes vote goes john vanbiesbrouck mask skyline new york city , sides bunch bees \( beezer \) looks really sharp funny mention one time cherry pointed vanbiesbrouck 's mask hated think said something effect see \? great last year goes gets mask ca n't stop ! may may take cherry seriously , cracked heard think ed belfour current best mask nhl btw also like moog 's , 'll give fuhr 's new one honourable mention , although n't seen closely yet \( looked good distance ! \) 's also neat 's detroit call chevy two flags painted top auto race
drozinst db erau edu \( drozinski tim \) subject ulf organization embry riddle aeronautical university , daytona beach , fl usa lines 59 nntp posting host alpha db erau edu layfield cpsc ucalgary ca \( colin layfield \) writes article giraffe zoo cs yale edu suned cs yale edu \( wanna know \? \) writes let give two cents worth whole thing sick pittsburg fans \( second favorite team \) talk ca n't bruins forget ulf samuelsson forgotten adam graves beside obvious fact 's career never endangered slash neely still bother injury , think important reason adam graves played clean hockey ever since ! ulf continues play dirty \( yes , trying hit player he's injured dirty \) fans forget one dirty play forget ulf , watch hockey high lights , get reminded dirty hitting player 's injured dirty \? explain statement \? mean player injured ice \( \? \) mean player playing hurt player hurt bother playing n't belive player let playing hurt i'm ulf fan least spot fact like calgary 's theoren fleury respect part game really piss players 's part job \( lacks ulf 's size ! \) ulf \( pgh \) fan , pisses whole adam graves ulf debate ulf plays hard hitting hockey \( nothing wrong \) graves way win game intentionally hurt someone \( bites ! \) players really piss ones insist hitting behind try go knees injure players kind garbage got go \( would really like see muni get pasted one worst offenders \) thought instituted kinds new rules season stop crap like \? ! \? , officiating still stink high heaven \? imho , could get rid existing refs , institute new system one ref ice keep eye trouble makers lot things would stop , game would ruled players mario , selanne , bure , messier , et al 0 02 colin layfield religion sex power plays , manipulate people money pay , university calgary selling skin , selling god computer science numbers look credit cards ! layfield cpsc ucalgary ca queensryche tim drozinski embry riddle aero univ drozinst erau db erau edu
bks2 cbnewsi cb att com \( bryan k strouse \) subject nhl results games played 4 15 93 organization keywords thursday night 's boxscores lines 227 nhl results games played 4 15 93 standings patrick adams norris smythe tm w l pt tm w l pt tm w l pt tm w l pt 56 21 7 119 51 26 7 109 47 25 12 106 46 29 9 101 42 34 7 91 47 27 10 104 47 28 9 103 43 30 11 97 40 36 7 87 48 30 6 102 44 29 11 99 39 35 10 88 39 37 7 85 38 36 10 86 37 36 11 85 40 37 7 87 phl 35 37 11 81 har 26 51 6 58 min 36 38 10 82 edm 26 50 8 60 nyr 34 38 11 79 ott 10 70 4 24 tb 23 54 7 53 sj 11 71 2 24 x clinched division title clinched playoff berth minnesota north stars \( 36 38 10 \) 1 1 1 3 detroit red wings \( 47 28 9 \) 0 2 3 5 1st period min , mcphee 18 \( ludwig \) 1 23 2nd period min , dahlen 34 \( courtnall , gagner \) \( pp \) 0 31 det , drake 18 \( howe , ogrodnick \) 9 14 det , ysebaert 34 \( lidstrom , howe \) \( pp \) 17 37 3rd period det , ciccarelli 41 \( coffey , chiasson \) \( pp \) 0 32 det , kennedy 19 \( burr , probert \) 3 42 det , yzerman 58 \( ciccarelli , gallant \) 6 17 min , dahlen 35 \( courtnall , gagner \) 19 11 powerplay opportunities north stars 1 2 red wings 2 4 shots goal north stars 10 9 11 30 red wings 6 15 8 29 minnesota north stars casey \( 26 26 5 \) \( 29 shots 24 saves \) detroit red wings cheveldae \( 34 24 7 \) \( 30 shots 27 saves \) att 19 , 749 philadelphia flyers \( 35 37 11 \) 1 2 4 7 buffalo sabres \( 38 36 10 \) 0 3 1 4 1st period phl , recchi 52 \( galley , lindros \) 0 18 2nd period phl , hawgood 11 \( dineen , eklund \) \( pp \) 2 15 phl , dineen 33 \( mcgill \) \( sh \) 5 40 buf , barnaby 1 \( hawerchuk , smehlik \) \( pp \) 7 48 buf , wood 18 \( lafontaine , ledyard \) \( pp \) 17 34 buf , mogilny 75 \( hawerchuk , carney \) \( pp \) 18 56 3rd period phl , eklund 11 \( dineen , beranek \) 4 42 buf , mogilny 76 \( errey , lafontaine \) 5 24 phl , dineen 34 \( brind'amour \) \( pp \) 6 44 phl , dineen 35 \( brind'amour , galley \) \( sh \) 8 39 phl , acton 8 \( dineen , brind'amour \) 19 48 powerplay opportunities flyers 2 5 sabres 3 10 shots goal flyers 6 7 13 26 sabres 8 19 18 45 philadelphia flyers soderstrom \( 20 17 6 \) \( 45 shots 41 saves \) buffalo sabres fuhr \( 10 shots 7 saves \) hasek \( 11 10 4 \) \( 5 40 second \) \( 16 shots 12 saves \) att 15 , edmonton oilers \( 26 50 8 \) 0 0 0 0 winnipeg jets \( 40 37 7 \) 1 2 0 3 1st period win , shannon 20 \( steen , davydov \) \( pp \) 2 08 2nd period win , selanne 76 \( olausson \) 5 25 win , zhamnov 25 \( selanne \) 19 42 3rd period none powerplay opportunities oilers 0 3 jets 1 6 shots goal oilers 7 8 16 31 jets 10 16 16 42 edmonton oilers ranford \( 17 38 6 \) \( 42 shots 39 saves \) winnipeg jets essensa \( 33 26 6 \) \( 31 shots 31 saves \) att 12 , 229 toronto maple leafs \( 44 29 11 \) 1 1 0 2 chicago blackhawks \( 47 25 12 \) 0 2 1 3 1st period tor , baumgartner 1 18 40 2nd period chi , roenick 50 \( murphy , chelios \) 1 29 tor , andreychuk 55 \( mironov , lefebvre \) 13 22 chi , murphy 7 \( roenick , chelios \) \( pp \) 19 05 3rd period chi , matteau 15 10 51 powerplay opportunities maple leafs 1 3 blackhawks 1 7 shots goal maple leafs 14 4 8 26 blackhawks 10 13 13 36 toronto maple leafs potvin \( 25 15 7 \) \( 36 shots 33 saves \) chicago blackhawks belfour \( 41 18 11 \) \( 26 shots 24 saves \) att 17 , 856 tampa bay lightning \( 23 54 7 \) 0 2 3 5 st louis blues \( 37 36 11 \) 3 3 0 6 1st period stl , shanahan 50 \( brown , felsner \) 10 44 stl , miller 23 \( bassen , brown \) 19 38 stl , bassen 8 \( zombo \) 19 48 2nd period stl , bassen 9 \( hedican , miller \) 0 14 stl , miller 24 \( zombo , hedican \) 11 09 tbl , maltais 7 \( hamrlik \) 11 27 tbl , bergland 3 \( harvey , gilhen \) 17 16 tbl , shanahan 51 \( emerson \) 19 38 3rd period tbl , creighton 19 \( bergland , \) 0 40 tbl , chambers 10 \( zamuner , cole \) 10 37 tbl , cole 12 \( beers , bradley \) 11 58 powerplay opportunities lightning 0 3 blues 0 4 shots goal lightning 5 12 14 31 blues 11 11 4 26 tampa bay lightning jablonski \( 8 24 4 \) \( 22 shots 16 saves \) bergeron \( 0 00 third \) \( 4 shots 4 saves \) st louis blues joseph \( 29 28 9 \) \( 18 shots 15 saves \) hebert \( 19 20 third \) \( 13 shots 11 saves \) att 17 , 816 san jose sharks \( 11 71 2 \) 0 1 2 3 calgary flames \( 43 30 11 \) 0 4 3 7 1st period none 2nd period sjs , garpenlov 22 \( odgers , gaudreau \) \( pp \) 3 37 cal , nieuwendyk 38 \( macinnis , suter \) \( pp \) 5 26 cal , ranheim 21 \( otto , suter \) 10 43 cal , yawney 1 \( nieuwendyk , roberts \) 11 26 cal , berube 4 \( paslawski , skrudland \) 13 45 3rd period sjs , wood 1 \( odgers , kisio \) 8 00 cal , reichel 40 9 26 cal , roberts 38 \( musil , paslawski \) \( pp \) 12 27 sjs , kisio 26 13 10 cal , paslawski 18 \( ashton , stern \) 16 16 powerplay opportunities sharks 1 3 flames 2 4 shots goal sharks 5 11 9 25 flames 11 14 7 32 san jose sharks irbe \( 7 25 0 \) \( 32 shots 25 saves \) calgary flames vernon \( 29 26 9 \) \( 25 shots 22 saves \) att 19 , 532 vancouver canucks \( 46 29 9 \) 1 2 5 8 los angeles kings \( 39 35 10 \) 2 3 1 6 1st period lak , robitaille 63 \( gretzky , sandstrom \) 1 39 van , babych 3 \( craven , nedved \) \( pp \) 9 43 lak , sandstrom 25 \( gretzky , robitaille \) 10 06 2nd period van , linden 32 \( ronning , courtnall \) \( pp \) 0 54 van , ward 22 \( hunter , nedved \) 1 24 lak , gretzky 16 \( sandstrom , robitaille \) 6 57 lak , zhitnik 12 \( kurri , robitaille \) \( pp \) 14 02 lak , millen 23 \( hardy \) \( pp \) 16 57 3rd period van , ronning 27 \( dirk \) 5 28 van , ronning 28 \( courtnall , linden \) \( pp \) 11 15 van , linden 33 \( courtnall , ronning \) 11 27 lak , donnelly 29 \( millen , granato \) \( pp \) 14 35 van , courtnall 31 \( ronning , ratushny \) 14 54 van , ronning 29 \( linden , diduck \) \( en \) 18 47 powerplay opportunities canucks 3 6 kings 3 10 shots goal canucks 8 6 16 30 kings 10 21 10 41 canucks whitmore \( 18 8 4 \) \( 41 shots 35 saves \) los angeles kings stauber \( 23 shots 17 saves \) hrudey \( 17 21 6 \) \( 11 27 third \) \( 6 shots 5 saves \) att 16 , 005 spike
anna matyas am2x andrew cmu edu subject truly sad day hockey organization h ss dean 's office , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 21 nntp posting host andrew cmu edu reply 1993apr16 news stolaf edu joel writes fine 26 year history came close tonight , minnesota north stars , norm 's stars \( whichever prefer \) lost red wings score 5 3 stars goals scored mike mcphee ulf dahlen , two including final one franchise history , less minute play sad indeed condolences minnesota fans losing team fear within next decade professional sports team left pittsburgh steelers always enjoy things never know 'll taken away us mom
twork egr msu edu \( michael twork \) subject thumbs espn organization michigan state university lines 6 reply twork egr msu edu \( michael twork \) nntp posting host frith egr msu edu originator twork frith egr msu edu especially wings player hit rut went boards shoulder blotted injury report wings player racine , returned later period mike
cs902043 ariel yorku ca \( shawn luddington \) subject 1993 nhl draft organization york university , toronto , canada lines 51 article 93109 maine maine edu jon carr io91748 maine maine edu writes draft year \? coverage \? know nfl draft espn anyone got details \? paul kariya 1993 1 pick ! \( 2 perhaps \? wo n't last long ! \) \) n't know exact coverage states canada covered tsn , maybe espn grab coverage ! n't know ! picks ottawa picks 1 means almost 100 alexander daigle go 1 'll either stay traded montreal quebec imo would take kariya alot leadership ncaa far world championships daigle n't show junior team san jose get kariya tampa bay either go russian kozlov \( think 's \) defenseman rob \( probably last name wrong \) expansion wo n't go name blue chip prospects chris chris swedish player ca n't remember name draft order 1 \) ottawa 2 \) san jose 3 \) tampa bay 4 \) south florida 5 \) south florida 6 \) hartford 7 \) edmonton 8 \) dallas 9 \) ny rangers 10 \) philadelphia 8th thru 10th picks could wrong n't standings guessing \( mind 8 top notch prospects draft , kariya leading way going 1 \) shawn go caps \( two first round picks next three years thanks st louis say ron caron scott stevens \)
gtd597a prism gatech edu \( hrivnak \) subject list tee times metropolitan toronto golf courses monday organization georgia institute technology lines 14 article 1993apr20 julian uwo ca lee139 gaul csd uwo ca \( steve lee \) writes woops ! rec sport hockey ! rec sport golf ! hope check newsgroup header next time posting ! duh ! making joke long leafs would last playoffs \( y'know , hit courses season \) sheesh people quick complain go skins ! next question emotional music quite go braves ! effect \? mike patton , faith go hornets ! go capitals ! mike friedman \( hrivnak fan ! \) internet gtd597a prism gatech edu
gtd597a prism gatech edu \( hrivnak \) subject nhlpa poll \( partial stats results \) organization georgia institute technology lines 21 article 1993apr20 mtroyal ab ca caldwell8102 mtroyal ab ca writes people send polls take closer look njd , deep team , two capable goalies , excellent forwards defensemen shooter richer , around todd , chef stasny master thousand dishes , power play kevin todd oiler one months closely follow devils , anyway \? jeez sigh written game nhlpa hockey '93 precise date rosters n't people think post \? jeez go skins ! next question emotional music quite go braves ! effect \? mike patton , faith go hornets ! go capitals ! mike friedman \( hrivnak fan ! \) internet gtd597a prism gatech edu
umturne4 ccu umanitoba ca \( daryl turner \) subject nhl team captains nntp posting host ccu umanitoba ca organization university manitoba , winnipeg , manitoba , canada lines 30 article 1993apr20 jarvis csri toronto edu odin control utoronto ca \( gary leung \) writes article 1993apr20 samba oit unc edu scott marks launchpad unc edu \( scott marks \) writes course , mike ramsey \( one time \) captain buffalo prior traded pittsburgh currently , penguins 3 former captains 1 real captain \( lemieux \) playing rotate 's season \( even c mario \) even troy loney worn c pens think mike foligno captain sabres got traded leafs also , n't rick vaive captain leafs got traded chicago \( steve thomas ed someone \) speaking leafs , believe darryl sittler captain \( 'd torn c jersey think claimed captaincy later \) traded flyers oh yeah , course , gretzky captain oilers traded n't \? dale hawerchuk troy murray captains jets traded \( murray year mid season , hawerchuk years ago season \) daryl turner r h contact winnipeg jets internet umturne4 ccu umanitoba ca fidonet 1 348 701 1 348 4 \( please route 348 700 \) tkachuk zhamnov , sel nne , shoots , scores ! jets win cup ! jets win cup ! essensa vezina ! housley norris ! sel nne calder !
vax clarku edu subject bruins connection \? organization clark university lines 7 wondering star trek tng fans newsgroup knew possible relationship players douris moog names worf \( son moog \) suppose 's coincidence curious , bart
cdash moet cs colorado edu \( charles shub \) subject thumbs way way way espn keywords baseball , goddamn baseball nntp posting host moet cs colorado edu organization university colorado colorado springs lines 12 tuesday , isles caps game going overtime espn tom mees says , obligated bring baseball hate say , last year coverage playoffs sports channel america \( colorado \) vastly superior espn giving us year charlie shub cdash cs colorado edu \( 719 \) 593 leave university iowa cdash cs uiowa edu \( 319 \) 335
patrick walker f1hh unb ca subject red wings lines 19 organization university new brunswick detroit 's going beat toronto 6 less ! ! ! granted , gilmour get hart trophy , lemieux look gilmour toronto think toronto , comes mind , gilmour , andreychuk , potvin ah n gilmour \? back detroit really n't team could stand players team play potential , one could stop yzerman , fedorov , coffey , 's firepower pittsburgh n't tri p skates ! detroit toronto 5 patrick walker detroit chicago 6 university new ! ! ! detroit vancouver 6 canada detroit nords 6 still sucks !
mre teal eng sun com \( mike eisler \) subject panther 's president organization sun microsystems , mountain view , ca usa lines 27 nntp posting host teal article 1993apr20 alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) writes san jose sharks ottawa senators second gm already 'd willing wager sharks senators probably see 3rd gm 's perhaps 4th , see panthers second actually , fired coach george kingston third gm trio duo \( dean lombardi chuck \) , sharks already 3rd office gm 4th likely happen september 'll either add new coach , name single gm wager amended read sharks likely 5th gm panther 's get 2nd ca n't wait see next season 's nhl guide record book lists gm history sharks given depth next year 's draft , expansion draft rules , reputation gms , anaheim miami look pretty good first 90s expansion teams win cup san jose ottawa instability gm position , something philly , nyi , edmonton , calgary first cups pittsburgh , needed quarter century mike eisler , mre eng sun com ``not leafs best team , fans even intelligent insightful pittsburgh 's players mighty bright , mean , really going get wallet back , right \? '' jan brittenson 3 93 , leaf pen woofers rec sport hockey
chuq apple com \( chuq von rospach \) subject sharks review part 5 left wings organization go sharks , go giants , inc lines 113 nntp posting host apple com nlu xenon stanford edu \( nelson lu \) writes 8 larry depalma season 3rd acquired '91 92 , free agent minnesota grade \( c \) netter fan watching sharks , including , knows depalma end season sharks appeared still rights , n't san jose , n't kansas city , name n't appeared waiver wire sorry , nelson , forgot ask check stats kansas city , 'll find larry playing games , played 8 games period covered stats 3 26 4 16 issue \( 1 3 4 13 pim \) exactly invisible sent kansas city , walked , suspended later revealed injured promptly disappeared watching eyes shark bytes \( mailing list known sharks officials \) faithful , neither sharks miss well , gotten chance talk times , n't quite accurate injured back \( disk injury \) one stupid thing , hide sharks tried play knew bubble sharks sent k c , point disclosed injury since n't disclose , sharks disagreed responsibility suspended reporting eventually worked , sharks injured put therapy , able play shipped k c fully expects play nhl , although clearly sharks \( hiding injuries stupid , beyond \) nice guy always butt disappeared hurt expect 'll surface another team point \( probably another expansion team \) , likely bubble player rest career good work ethic good getting players motivated unfortunately , played sharks future bad judgement call 20 john carter season 4th acquired '91 92 , free agent boston grade \( b b \) unlikely back next season always gave 110 , best work ethic club \( except maybe kisio \) , hustle n't always enough future sharks made clear one night flames went behind crease tried hold joel otto board literally one arm around otto 's neck another wrapped around otto 's stick arm otto casually turned around fed puck front crease goal , though carter n't hustle cover size far sharks told , point blank , 's gone good \( ditto \) one favorites staff , one said make room kids carter , fact , refused report k c suspended sharks might retirement , n't heard anything official hope hockey gulls 28 jean francois quintin season 1st acquired '91 92 , minnesota dispersal draft grade \( b b \) n't understand sharks n't let quintin play 14 games played season , least games saw , looked fairly lost ice think shows potential , n't think quite ready make jump nhl solid contender regular duty next season agreed \( btw , still think lot grades based wish 'd performed actually performed wonder whether really judge talent radio television , nelson \? know trouble , since n't see puck action views home views ice differ numerous ways \) 41 mark beaufait season 1st acquired 2nd round pick 1991 supplemental draft grade \( \? \) star season kansas city , beaufait got cup coffey coffee coffey red wings 45 dody wood season 1st acquired 3rd round pick 1991 entry draft grade \( , although perhaps n't give grade \) accused knocking wood much \? nah seriously , even tough guy \( rep \) however , games season point meaningless , hate judge talent quickly dody 's case , tempted make exception wo n't chuq imho von rospach , esd support training \( dal aux \) chuq apple com member , sfwa editor , otherrealms genie mac bigot alink chuq minor league fans minors request medraut apple com \( san jose giants 1 9 \) san francisco giants fans giants request medraut apple com \( stick \? ! \) san jose sharks fans sharks request medraut apple com \( new seat 127 tbd \)
patrick walker f1hh unb ca subject guy bad mouthed ulf lines 16 organization university new brunswick ditto allow people like continue , 's shame people say cheap shots drawing penalties fake ing part game , say ! ever tried like yzerman , 'd would deal probert would n't \? ulf n't even retaliatory ! 's way one could justify 're fools patrick walker university new brunswick \( \) canada detroit fan extraordinaire
patrick walker f1hh unb ca subject really expect toronto go anywhere \? really ! lines 13 organization university new brunswick detroit disciplined team 's lot europeans detroit would make game fast , toronto would slow game , means drawing penalties , last resort anyway toronto good team soon get good players toronto average team , detroit n't ballard screwed toronto owner everyone knows 's going take time toronto become real force expect gilmour burnt next year ca n't pull whole team forever patrick walker university new brunswick
umturne4 ccu umanitoba ca \( daryl turner \) subject espn sucks ot baseball \? guess nntp posting host ccu umanitoba ca organization university manitoba , winnipeg , manitoba , canada lines 10 showing meaningless \( relatively \) baseball game overtime game tied less 3 seconds left clock \? gimme break ! espn get brilliant decisions \? daryl turner r h contact winnipeg jets internet umturne4 ccu umanitoba ca fidonet 1 348 701 1 348 4 \( please route 348 700 \) tkachuk zhamnov , sel nne , shoots , scores ! jets win cup ! jets win cup ! essensa vezina ! housley norris ! sel nne calder !
stamber rainbow ecn purdue edu \( kevin l stamber \) subject espn , network heart keywords ! organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 22 dale hunter ties game , scoring third goal game 2 7 seconds remaining regulation could feel coming due contractual agreements , espn unable carry rest game live , may show worthless early season battle two pennant contenders , cleveland indians california angels winning goal scored , grave injustice breaking baseball game something reserved deaths presidents trading joe montana chiefs show goal instant replay n't lucky national coverage hockey \? 's , dammit ! kevin l stamber purdue university penguins 7 , devils 0 roll train , roll !
gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) subject thumbs way way way espn keywords baseball , goddamn baseball nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) organization phds hall lines 36 cdash moet cs colorado edu \( charles shub \) writes tuesday , isles caps game going overtime espn tom mees says , obligated bring baseball 're probably stuck , mike burger pointed baseball deal made far advance nhl contract wabc thing thankful devils wiped 9 30 , switch yankees baseball proof reasons left reader 's bad , wonder espn stuck us local team coverage alternate games \? got 's coverage bruins sabres boston homers awful ! ! ! 've read derek sanderson colour analyst wonder spent early years hockey intern landing job \? everything twisted something good say bruin \( \) involved even bill wirtz 's sc chicago \( pat foley , dale \) bad fair , sc used take feed esn \( empire sports network \) , sabre homers horrible cnn highlights , hear chris 's voice cbc coverage habs nords series bad could n't get espn , due respect sabres bruins mike emrick substituting devils scny team gary thorne mike original devils tv play play announcer , way gld je souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go ! ! ! gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) subject guy bad mouthed ulf nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) organization phds hall lines 14 patrick walker f1hh unb ca writes ever tried like yzerman , 'd would deal probert would n't \? realize many crossing faces wrote \? \( gld je souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go ! ! ! gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
kozloce wkuvx1 bitnet subject espn thumbs ! ! organization western kentucky university , bowling green , ky lines 35 jesus christ ! ! ! score 6 0 pens beating shit devils gave middle 2nd period espn something smart announcer states well folks game getting hand lets go islander capitals game celebrate actually making progress cs homework bored scheduled game tear throw jersey , hunter scores go ape shit 'cause first caps game 've able watch season espn \? go back blowout nj n't chance hell winning ! period ends sportscaster \( tied ! ! yes ! ! oops excuse \) goes penguin worship mode \( dont freak pens fans ! worthy ! i'm glad wont play much next year ! \) comes 3rd period \? blowout oh waiting cap isles get intermission good 've put close game back wait ! whats shit \? ! ! they're showing blowout ! ! \( oh guess score 7 0 penguins ! switch games ! ! ! \) holy shit 're changing games ! time ! ! lets see 'll stay later think proves point caps game goes overtime due contractual obligations switch fucking baseball \( sorry language im pissed ! \) hell going scheduled game went overtime \? espn get head ass know lot
etxonss ufsa ericsson se \( staffan axelsson \) subject wc 93 scores standings , april 20 nntp posting host uipc104 ericsson se organization ericsson telecom , stockholm , sweden lines 72 1993 world championships germany group standings \( munich \) group b standings \( dortmund \) gp w l gf ga p gp w l gf ga p canada 2 2 0 0 6 1 5 4 czech republic 2 1 1 0 6 1 5 3 russia 2 1 1 0 6 4 2 3 finland 2 1 1 0 3 1 2 3 italy 2 1 1 0 3 2 1 3 germany 2 1 0 1 6 5 1 2 sweden 2 1 0 1 2 4 2 2 usa 2 0 2 0 2 2 0 2 austria 2 0 0 2 2 5 3 0 france 1 0 0 1 0 2 2 0 switzerland 2 0 0 2 0 3 3 0 norway 1 0 0 1 0 6 6 0 april 18 italy russia 2 2 norway germany 0 6 sweden austria 1 0 usa czech republic 1 1 april 19 canada switzerland 2 0 russia austria 4 2 finland france 2 0 april 20 sweden canada 1 4 czech republic germany 5 0 switzerland italy 0 1 finland usa 1 1 april 21 germany france 15 30 italy sweden czech republic norway 20 00 april 22 switzerland russia usa france 15 30 austria canada norway finland 20 00 april 23 switzerland austria germany finland 20 00 april 24 russia sweden czech republic france 15 30 canada italy usa norway 20 00 april 25 sweden switzerland finland czech republic 15 30 russia canada germany usa 20 00 april 26 austria italy france norway 20 00 playoffs april 27 quarterfinals 2 b 3 15 30 3 b 2 20 00 april 28 quarterfinals 1 b 4 15 30 4 b 1 20 00 april 29 relegation 5 b 6 15 30 6 b 5 20 00 april 30 semifinals 1 b 4 3 b 2 15 30 4 b 1 2 b 3 20 00 may 1 relegation 14 30 bronze medal game 19 00 may 2 final 15 00 \( \( staffan axelsson etxonss ufsa ericsson se \) \) r h contact swedish hockey
boora kits sfu ca \( godfather \) subject abc real thing \? organization simon fraser university , burnaby , b c , canada lines 7 ok , seems everyone else canada treated real abc telecast people rogers tv surrey bc treated two channels stink commentator whitman play play godfather
nlu xenon stanford edu \( nelson lu \) subject 1993 nhl draft organization computer science department , stanford university lines 29 article 1993apr20 newshub ariel yorku ca cs902043 ariel yorku ca \( shawn luddington \) writes picks ottawa picks 1 means almost 100 alexander daigle go 1 'll either stay traded montreal quebec imo would take kariya alot leadership ncaa far world championships daigle n't show junior team san jose get kariya tampa bay either go russian kozlov \( think 's \) defenseman rob \( probably last name wrong \) last name niedermayer , new jersey 's scott 's last name , \( guessed \) brothers rob niedermayer center , defenseman sure sharks take kariya n't saying much , apparently like niedermayer victor kozlov , along kariya chris pronger 's name also mentioned guess 'll take niedermayer may take pronger , except already many defensive prospects go calgary flames ! al macinnis norris ! gary roberts hart smythe ! go edmonton oilers ! go playoffs next year ! stay edmonton ! nelson lu \( claudius leland stanford edu \) rec sport hockey contact san jose sharks
holger ohlwein ap mchp sni de \( holger ohlwein \) subject canada 3 sweden 1 world reply holger ohlwein ap mchp sni de \( holger ohlwein \) organization siemens nixdorf ag lines 16 nntp posting host 139 21 16 6 article venus cc hollandc pe ca , white venus cc hollandc pe ca \( take baby ! \) writes today world championships munich , canada scored impressive 3 1 victory defending world champs , sweden game seen yesterday munich canada 4 1 sweden ! last goal canada 19 59 3rd period maybe n't go get another beer game post imaginary results holger e e n holger ohlwein otto hahn ring 6 8000 muenchen 83 tel 49 \( 89 \) 636 email holger ohlwein ap mchp sni de n x r f never put till tomorrow avoid together
kirk gaul csd uwo ca \( andrew kirk \) subject goodbye , good riddance , get lost 'stars organization computer science dept , univ western ontario , london , canada nntp posting host obelix gaul csd uwo ca lines 34 article blue cis pitt edu gomer pitt edu \( richard j coyle \) writes article 1993apr19 julian uwo ca kirk gaul csd uwo ca \( andrew kirk \) writes first , anyone accepted western business school dork second , one person country 27 million n't think posts article , mean embarrasing canada network expressing feel thoughts someone n't agree , give right call assholes anyways , north stars shit ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! actually , think give people privilege calling folks like assholes although asshole might take offense grouped bunch losers like 've never heard western business school , anyhow probably place rick losers like us \? fucking moron never heard western business school , university western ontario matter n't pull head asshole smell something shit look map see uwo ! back hockey , north stars moved past years shit real team like toronto would never moved ! ! ! andrew andrew kirk university western ontario london , ontario go leafs go !
uxa cso uiuc edu \( lord vader \) subject trivia habs \? organization university illinois urbana lines 7 ok , i'm sure asked 100 's times , wondered since heard hell nickname habs come montreal canadiens \? thanks advance , schneider
willis oracle scg hac com \( stan willis \) subject 1992 93 nhl regular season final attendance report reply willis empire dnet hac com \( stan willis \) organization none lines 40 national hockey league 92 93 season home attendance report qtr represents 10 home games , qtr 4 11 home games neutral site games included indicates number sell outs team name qtr 1 qtr 2 qtr 3 qtr 4 totals average bos 140 , 573 5 142 , 694 7 142 , 768 6 152 , 468 8 578 , 503 14 , 109 buf 144 , 701 0 148 , 516 3 152 , 133 5 168 , 878 4 614 , 228 14 , 981 cal 190 , 125 1 196 , 174 3 196 , 982 4 217 , 346 5 800 , 627 19 , 527 chi 176 , 372 10 176 , 746 9 177 , 981 10 196 , 749 11 727 , 848 17 , 752 det 196 , 330 10 196 , 670 10 197 , 228 10 217 , 167 10 807 , 395 19 , 692 edm 139 , 038 0 149 , 422 2 152 , 831 2 165 , 384 2 606 , 675 14 , 796 har 92 , 994 0 110 , 670 2 108 , 651 0 122 , 123 0 434 , 438 10 , 596 la 154 , 065 5 159 , 014 8 160 , 050 10 176 , 055 11 649 , 184 15 , 833 min 130 , 710 2 140 , 933 3 139 , 986 1 160 , 213 4 571 , 842 13 , 947 mon 168 , 8 169 , 671 10 168 , 784 10 190 , 186 11 696 , 738 16 , 993 nj 127 , 053 0 124 , 011 2 145 , 856 2 163 , 050 1 559 , 970 13 , 657 nyi 114 , 706 1 108 , 502 1 123 , 167 3 139 , 0 486 , 321 11 , 861 nyr 178 , 200 7 179 , 990 6 182 , 000 10 199 , 337 8 739 , 527 18 , ott 104 , 713 10 105 , 000 10 104 , 602 10 115 , 330 11 429 , 645 10 , 479 phi 172 , 372 4 172 , 967 3 172 , 613 2 190 , 520 5 708 , 472 17 , 279 pit 160 , 379 6 161 , 475 8 161 , 280 6 177 , 705 10 660 , 839 16 , 118 que 149 , 452 3 147 , 911 3 147 , 394 2 168 , 830 8 613 , 587 14 , 965 sj 110 , 890 10 110 , 374 8 110 , 120 7 121 , 745 10 453 , 129 11 , 051 stl 156 , 313 3 170 , 531 5 171 , 249 5 187 , 849 7 685 , 942 16 , 730 tb 97 , 269 5 99 , 621 6 99 , 611 4 114 , 059 9 410 , 560 10 , 013 tor 155 , 500 4 157 , 779 9 157 , 014 8 172 , 888 11 643 , 181 15 , 687 van 144 , 120 0 154 , 184 4 157 , 094 6 176 , 751 8 632 , 149 15 , 418 153 , 209 0 163 , 563 1 161 , 479 2 171 , 711 2 649 , 962 15 , 852 win 131 , 0 135 , 902 1 133 , 414 1 154 , 956 2 555 , 344 13 , 544 3 , 488 , 253 3 , 582 , 320 3 , 624 , 287 4 , , 246 14 , 716 , 106 avg 14 , 534 14 , 926 15 , 101 15 , 231 14 , 955
willis oracle scg hac com \( stan willis \) subject kings playoff notes stauber , tv ratings , etc reply willis empire dnet hac com \( stan willis \) organization none lines 112 1992 93 los angeles kings notes playoffs stauber disturbed third man theme rick , daily news barry melrose 's decision stick robb stauber stands rather crease even bench stanley cup playoffs sit well rookie goaltender want part team crucial time year , fun time year , i'm , stauber said emotion monday think worked hard enough stauber said accepts melrose 's choice kelly hrudey teams top goalie playoff series calgary flames hrudey made 21 saves sundays 6 3 opening victory stauber clearly upset sudden status 3 man behind rick knickle stauber 4 1 2 record 2 98 goals average stretch regular season nearly 1 job hrudey knickle \? 2 3 decisions bloated 5 26 average , twice yanked games \( stomach cramps \) n't played since march 29 yet , series resumes wednesday , knickle serve hrudey 's backup stauber satisfy playoff hunger olympic popcorn i'm supposedly close starter could starter dropped 3 happened 2 \? stauber wondered 'd happy 2 , feel least part team playoffs perhaps stauber eventually get chance , melrose apparently convinced 25 year old capable handling playoff pressure insisting goalie future , melrose said stauber four big games asked win season , according melrose 7 2 loss san jose dec 26 8 3 loss new york rangers jan 23 6 6 tie detroit feb 11 8 6 loss vancouver thursday four times season robb could emerged elite goalie , could taken away kelly hrudey , n't , melrose said elite goaltender carry ball give mark great goalie n't satisfied backup i'm blaming robb losses , 're going 1 , 've got able walk talk 've got able play everything line robb stauber great deal ability , maybe expect ouch remark stung stauber began season 9 0 1 , struggled team hit mid season slump , n't play month knickle signed san diego gulls roster , came end expect anybody , including barry melrose , said stauber , three year star university minnesota left school 1989 , development hampered string serious injuries 've last four years two knee operations , disk back , shoulder surgery go \? obviously expect lot , otherwise would n't anybody would disagree n't know i'm saying barry n't know , n't say 've without expectations anything , i'm stauber acknowledged played poorly four games melrose mentioned even though n't play well , get knocked maybe three \? 's bit jump , said 're almost 1 , play good game 're 1 n't 're 3 \? jack shoot 67 75 \? explain \? 's barry wanted explain , n't come counted n't know know , 's sport 'll melrose 's goalie future statement n't mean much stauber know , 'll 30 future , said game 1 kings flames playoff series drew 4 2 nielsen rating abc channel 7 la kings averaged 2 1 nielsen rating 10 regular season games aired channel 5 around nhl san jose fired coach george kingston , lead team 11 71 2 mark 2nd nhl season kingston 28 129 7 past 2 years sharks former islander executive bill torrey named president expansion florida panthers bobby clarke named clubs general manager last nights games win 2 van 4 \( van leads 1 0 \) tor 3 det 6 \( det leads 1 0 \) stan willis \( willis empire dnet hac com \) net contact l kings talk l kings mailing list kings cs stanford edu subscribe unsubscribe kings request cs stanford edu
willis oracle scg hac com \( stan willis \) subject schedule reply willis empire dnet hac com \( stan willis \) organization none lines 18 article netnews upenn edu kkeller mail sas upenn edu \( keith keller \) writes article master cs rose hulman edu swartzjh rosevc rose hulman edu writes f king hockey games televised nationally tonight ! hell \? \? \? hell espn showing stupid baseball game , baseball even three weeks season hockey playoffs \? \? \? , wait , know answer still ! really espn houston astros chicago cubs game scheduled last night west coast since game rained , showed toronto maple leafs detroit red wings game instead stan willis net contact la kings
edb uib subject 77 's \? organization university bergen lines 13 article 1r23on 4p6 bigboote wpi edu ching bigwpi wpi edu \( logistician \) writes need players wearing 77 nhl know one , ray borque bruins help would greatly appreciated paul coffey detroit redwings
cec2 wustl edu \( michael sy \) subject red wings nntp posting host cec2 organization washington university , st louis mo lines 20 n't forget paul ysebaert , ex devil 's good team player michael sy cec2 wustl edu \) ' new jersey devils ' ' ' '''
etxonss ufsa ericsson se \( staffan axelsson \) subject wc 93 results , april 20 organization ericsson telecom , stockholm , sweden lines 162 nntp posting host uipc104 ericsson se 1993 world championships germany group results sweden canada 1 4 \( 0 0 , 1 1 , 0 3 \) 1st 2nd 0 1 geoff sanderson \( kevin dineen \) 7 24 swe 1 1 patrik juhlin \( jan larsson \) 15 23 \( pp \) 3rd 1 2 geoff sanderson 5 54 \( ps \) 1 3 mike gartner \( greg johnson , adam graves \) 10 44 1 4 rod brind'amour \( shayne corson \) 19 59 shots goal penalties attendance referee sweden 10 15 12 37 4 2min 6 , 500 rob hearn \( usa \) canada 10 13 6 29 6 2min bill ranford stopped 36 shots lead canada 4 1 victory well played game first period started give away canadian defenseman rundqvist came alone ranford could n't put puck sliding ranford later , kevin dineen great opportunity soderstrom played well stefan nilsson couple great set jan larsson ranford came big period ended scoreless edge sweden creating opportunities second period action saw tommy soderstrom making great save mark recchi made cross ice pass lindros , eric one timed puck soderstrom make glove hand save 7 minute mark , canada started applying pressure swedes sanderson dineen brind'amour worked hard kept puck zone dineen gave puck sanderson skated around screened swedish defenseman , came soderstrom made wrist shot went soderstrom 's far post , 1 0 canada swedes picked game , peter forsberg shot hit ranford 's post \( inside \) , went parallel goal line gartner got penalty swedes power play jan larsson took shot slot , ranford gave rebound larsson saw juhlin far post , passed puck ranford beat , 1 1 third period started periods , swedes pressure canadians always dangerous close goal 5 54 , canada created great chances arto forced cover puck goal crease since soderstrom lost sight resulted penalty shot , since defenseman ca n't cover puck goal crease geoff sanderson took penalty shot \( first ever , explained afterwards \) , put low soderstrom 's stick side , close post excellent penalty shot give canada go ahead goal canada increased lead suspect , gartner bouncing puck past soderstrom make 3 1 swedes ran gas could n't produce good scoring chances 2 , 5 periods 4 1 goal came 1 second left , rod brind'amour scoring rebound soderstrom , swedish defense already minds dressing room good game \( best wc far \? \) , goalies playing great soderstrom best player sweden , ranford even played better soderstrom , tells something ranford probably best goalie world , comments game canada played disciplined defense , ranford pointed easy play well good defense lindros played lot played well , sanderson naturally game hero two goals forsberg naslund bergqvist line sweden 's best along larsson juhlin nilsson swedish defense played well , 197 cm 104 kg peter popovic task 192 cm 107 kg eric lindros , managed well ranger defenseman peter andersson finally got go wc , considering landed germany hours game , played well swedish coach curt game , partly swedes inability score , partly linesman 's mistake 1 3 goal lines information follows italy switzerland 1 0 \( 0 0 , 1 0 , 0 0 \) 1st 2nd ita 1 0 orlando 15 47 3rd penalties ita 10 2min , swi 8 2min referee anton , slovakia attendance 3 , 500 group b results czech republic germany 5 0 \( 0 0 , 3 0 , 2 0 \) 1st 2nd cze 1 0 1 51 cze 2 0 jiri dolezal 12 26 cze 3 0 petr hrbek 19 10 3rd cze 4 0 8 28 cze 5 0 josef beranek 17 07 penalties cze 7 2min , ger 6 2min 1 1 game penalty referee darren , canada attendance 10 , 200 czechs clearly better germans , german crowd showed discontent throwing stuff ice finland usa 1 1 \( 0 0 , 1 0 , 0 1 \) 1st 2nd fin 1 0 jarkko varvio 4 00 3rd usa 1 1 ed olczyk 4 26 penalties fin 7 2min , usa 6 2min referee valeri , russia attendance 2 , 800 hope finns provide information game \( n't see whole game \) finns took lead jarkko varvio slap shot blue line , soft goal mike richter far play second period goes , finns seemed control , 1 0 lead warranted saw sweden canada goaltender 30 tommy soderstrom 30 bill ranford defense 8 kenneth 5 norm maciver 14 fredrik stillman 24 dave manson 3 peter popovic 25 geoff smith 55 peter andersson 19 brian benning 7 arto 6 terry carkner 28 roger 3 garry galley 4 derek mayer forwards 29 mikael renberg 15 dave gagner 9 thomas rundqvist 27 adam graves 34 mikael andersson 22 mike gartner 19 markus naslund 20 paul kariya 21 peter forsberg 88 eric lindros 18 jonas bergqvist 8 mark recchi 5 patrik juhlin 17 rod brind'amour 20 jan larsson 9 shayne corson 4 stefan nilsson 11 kevin dineen 22 charles 10 geoff sanderson 26 michael nylander 12 greg johnson \( 34 andersson 18 bergqvist \) 14 brian savage 16 kelly buchberger \( \( staffan axelsson etxonss ufsa ericsson se \) \) r h contact swedish hockey
delarocq eos ncsu edu \( derrell emery larocque \) subject buffalo 4 , boston 0 defense ! ! reply delarocq eos ncsu edu \( derrell emery larocque \) organization north carolina state university , project eos lines 26 originator delarocq 100lez eos ncsu edu tonight boston , buffalo sabres blanked boston bruins 4 0 tonight boston looks like boston hang season , buffalo 's home record awesome ! ! ! ! great buffalo fans might get see revenge last year ! ! ! ! ! \) delarocq eos ncsu edu 1988 , 1989 , 1990 , 1991 afc east division champions 1991 , 1992 , 1993 afc conference champions ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! \) squished fish monday night football , november 16 , 1992 squished trash talking fish afc championship , january 17 , 1992 buffalo bills fan , email delarocq eos ncsu edu talk games , insight , etc fan , let know interested news green bay
bart splunge uucp \( barton \) subject la abc canada organization ashley , howland wood lines 25 sanjuan \( p allen larsen \) writes article boora sfu ca boora kits sfu ca \( godfather \) writes abc coverage kings flames game supposed way shown bc cbc overriding abc coverage \? flipped abc , commentators , commercials even question real abc coverage cbc black abc coverage \? yes , 's called canada , canadian station american station showing thing whether sporting event cheers thursday night , canadian signal broadcast american station even superbowl , best commercials television get , dumb canadian commercials , ones 've seen last year i'm edmonton , 's usually \( least often \) case , treated actual abc telecast kings flames game i'm whoever said earlier \( er , whitman \) poor commentator , hockey normally , oilers still playing \( \) , would turn sound listen radio broadcast get decent play play announcing bart , edmonton
maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) subject bay area media \( wings leafs coverage \) organization dept computer science , laurentian university , sudbury , lines 25 dreier durban berkeley edu dreier durban berkeley edu \( roland dreier \) writes san francisco bay area media reporting tonight detroit red wings beat toronto maple leafs 6 3 someone part media conspiracy leafs tell game really went \( expecting 4 0 win leafs , shutout potvin , hat trick andreychuk goal 3 assists gilmour \) leafs really lost , many penalties whichever biased ref game call leafs let red wings win \? ah yes california san francisco bay area media report joe montana rumoured leading candidate replace fired san jose sharks coach george kingston \? apparently montana winning attitude , playing coach expected quarterback powerplay good thing walls soft , eh \? cordially , always , maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca many morons rm little time
iastate edu \( cire trehguad \) subject nhl team captains reply iastate edu \( cire trehguad \) organization iowa state university lines 18 anna matyas \( am2x andrew cmu edu \) wrote michael collingridge writes , subject , captain ever traded , resigned , striped title season \? team captain trivia would appreciated n't ron francis captain whalers traded pittsburgh \? rick captain flyers traded pens recently caleb let us forget new jersey devils traded captain kirk muller stephen richer man hated trade !
maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca \( roger maynard \) subject wings take game one keywords detroit red wings 6 toronto maple leafs 3 organization dept computer science , laurentian university , sudbury , lines 19 msuinfo cl msu edu vergolin euler lbs msu edu \( david vergolini \) writes detroit red wings put lot ice tonight 6 3 washing toronto maple leafs toronto fans seen power mighty red wing offense toronto 's defense match wing offense defense , probert , primeau came move probert back defense \? see parking ass front potvin night \? somebody going discipline probert leafs want win series perhaps fresh clark hit ice end long probert shift cordially , always , maynard ramsey cs laurentian ca many morons rm little time
etxonss ufsa ericsson se \( staffan axelsson \) subject wc 93 results , april 18 organization ericsson telecom , stockholm , sweden lines 72 nntp posting host uipc104 ericsson se oak math ucla edu \( david stein \) writes 's going \? russians czechs unable beat easy opponents , swedes beat austria 1 0 \? ! \? 's opening game effect maybe pros arrive late , rookie wc players , problems get lines clicking may make things hard get going worse nations 'd guess better team face opening game , better , since chances upset greater reasons worse teams tough beat presented hans virus lindberg \( former coach switzerland \) 1 \) worse teams \( referring france , switzerland , austria , italy etc \) usually world class goalies 2 \) defensive play become much disciplined , take much less unnecessary penalties 3 \) use four lines makes harder make run gas 4 \) ice quality german wc rinks poor convincing winner germany wierd another weird thing czechs played entertaining hockey err kidding , david p alex , would like see czech roster , including , possible , clubs players come many finnish , german , swiss \? alex \? 's new name \) ok , forgot czech roster home yesterday , n't know teams players , would appreciate guys could fill blanks \( especially think players play finland \) czech republic goaltenders 1 petr briza \( finland somewhere , right \? \) 2 roman motor c defense 3 leo \? 4 tj 5 \? 6 , sweden 7 hv 71 , sweden 8 modo , sweden 9 tj forwards 10 petr \? 12 hv 71 , sweden 13 richard \? 14 jiri kucera \? 16 jan hc 18 petr hrbek \? 19 tomas \? 20 \( finland \? \) 21 roman motor c 22 martin modo , sweden 24 \? 26 jiri dolezal \? staffan \( \( staffan axelsson etxonss ufsa ericsson se \) \) r h contact swedish hockey
icop csa bu edu \( antonio pera \) subject hockey hispanic community distribution usa organization computer science department , boston university , boston , , usa lines 6 originator icop csa relying canadian tourists support team miami crazy really deserving cities without team san diego milwaukee wish panthers whatever name well ca n't sell hispanics , 're deep doo doo already , rumors tampa may move milwaukee
icop csa bu edu \( antonio pera \) subject abc coverage distribution usa organization computer science department , boston university , boston , , usa lines 9 originator icop csa loved abc coverage production excellent appearance excellent modern look first time heard thorne clement thought great request leave al annoys i'm hoping leads regular season contract guess would roughly weekly game feb april playoffs envy canadians tsn cbc maybe 'll get dish pick canadian tv much things , btw \?
c5ff jupiter sun csd unb ca \( cook charlie \) subject nhl summary parse results games played sun , april 18 , 1993 organization university new brunswick lines 219 new jersey 1 0 2 3 pittsburgh 2 3 1 6 first period 1 , pittsburgh , tocchet 1 \( stevens , lemieux \) pp , 1 40 2 , new jersey , barr 1 \( guerin , holik \) 6 24 3 , pittsburgh , lemieux 1 \( jagr , ramsey \) 9 33 second period 4 , pittsburgh , lemieux 2 \( stevens , murphy \) pp , 4 11 5 , pittsburgh , francis 1 \( ramsey , mullen \) 12 57 6 , pittsburgh , tippett 1 \( jagr , mceachern \) 17 13 third period 7 , pittsburgh , jagr 1 \( samuelsson , lemieux \) pp , 8 35 8 , new jersey , stevens 1 \( niedermayer , driver \) pp , 11 48 9 , new jersey , stevens 2 \( semak , niedermayer \) 18 56 pittsburgh 6 power play 8 3 scorer g pts francis 1 0 1 jagr 1 2 3 lemieux 2 2 4 mceachern 0 1 1 mullen 0 1 1 murphy 0 1 1 ramsey 0 2 2 samuelsson 0 1 1 stevens 0 2 2 tippett 1 0 1 tocchet 1 0 1 new jersey 3 power play 8 1 scorer g pts barr 1 0 1 driver 0 1 1 guerin 0 1 1 holik 0 1 1 niedermayer 0 2 2 semak 0 1 1 stevens 2 0 2 st louis 0 2 2 4 chicago 1 2 0 3 first period 1 , chicago , noonan 1 \( larmer , brown \) 8 17 second period 2 , st louis , brown 1 \( shanahan , emerson \) 3 12 3 , chicago , noonan 2 \( roenick , chelios \) pp , 5 40 4 , chicago , noonan 3 \( matteau , sutter \) 8 51 5 , st louis , felsner 1 \( mcrae , janney \) 12 49 third period 6 , st louis , shanahan 1 \( brown , hull \) pp , 11 12 7 , st louis , hull 1 \( emerson , brown \) pp , 11 29 st louis 4 power play 4 2 scorer g pts brown 1 2 3 emerson 0 2 2 felsner 1 0 1 hull 1 1 2 janney 0 1 1 mcrae 0 1 1 shanahan 1 1 2 chicago 3 power play 7 1 scorer g pts brown 0 1 1 chelios 0 1 1 larmer 0 1 1 matteau 0 1 1 noonan 3 0 3 roenick 0 1 1 sutter 0 1 1 los angeles 1 3 2 6 calgary 0 1 2 3 first period 1 , los angeles , sydor 1 \( gretzky , sandstrom \) 0 16 second period 2 , calgary , suter 1 \( fleury \) sh , 2 48 3 , los angeles , carson 1 \( shuchuk , sydor \) pp , 3 13 4 , los angeles , huddy 1 \( taylor , rychel \) 3 37 5 , los angeles , mcsorley 1 \( unassisted \) 6 36 third period 6 , los angeles , millen 1 \( granato , donnelly \) 1 06 7 , calgary , dahlquist 1 \( otto \) 4 23 8 , calgary , yawney 1 \( macinnis , reichel \) 8 47 9 , los angeles , carson 2 \( sandstrom , robitaille \) pp , 10 32 los angeles 6 power play 10 2 scorer g pts carson 2 0 2 donnelly 0 1 1 granato 0 1 1 gretzky 0 1 1 huddy 1 0 1 mcsorley 1 0 1 millen 1 0 1 robitaille 0 1 1 rychel 0 1 1 sandstrom 0 2 2 shuchuk 0 1 1 sydor 1 1 2 taylor 0 1 1 calgary 3 power play 8 0 special goals sh 1 total 1 scorer g pts dahlquist 1 0 1 fleury 0 1 1 macinnis 0 1 1 otto 0 1 1 reichel 0 1 1 suter 1 0 1 yawney 1 0 1 first period 1 , ny islanders , ferraro 1 \( flatley , vaske \) 5 56 second period scoring third period 2 , washington , hunter 1 \( elynuik , krygier \) 3 18 3 , washington , hunter 2 \( khristich , johansson \) pp , 7 01 4 , washington , khristich 1 \( pivonka , johansson \) pp , 15 25 washington 3 power play 5 2 scorer g pts elynuik 0 1 1 hunter 2 0 2 johansson 0 2 2 khristich 1 1 2 krygier 0 1 1 pivonka 0 1 1 ny islanders 1 power play 5 0 scorer g pts ferraro 1 0 1 flatley 0 1 1 vaske 0 1 1 buffalo 2 1 1 1 5 boston 0 2 2 0 4 first period 1 , buffalo , hannan 1 \( unassisted \) 2 32 2 , buffalo , lafontaine 1 \( mogilny \) 9 26 second period 3 , boston , juneau 1 \( neely , oates \) pp , 7 20 4 , boston , neely 1 \( oates , juneau \) 14 42 5 , buffalo , mogilny 1 \( hawerchuk , smehlik \) 19 55 third period 6 , buffalo , mogilny 2 \( unassisted \) 3 46 7 , boston , neely 2 \( juneau , oates \) 15 44 8 , boston , heinze 1 \( juneau \) 17 00 overtime 9 , buffalo , sweeney 1 \( khmylev , smehlik \) 11 03 buffalo 5 power play 3 0 scorer g pts hannan 1 0 1 hawerchuk 0 1 1 khmylev 0 1 1 lafontaine 1 0 1 mogilny 2 1 3 smehlik 0 2 2 sweeney 1 0 1 boston 4 power play 7 1 scorer g pts heinze 1 0 1 juneau 1 3 4 neely 2 1 3 oates 0 3 3 montreal 1 1 0 0 2 quebec 0 0 2 1 3 first period 1 , montreal , dionne 1 \( dipietro , brunet \) 5 52 second period 2 , montreal , bellows 1 \( muller , desjardins \) 9 58 third period 3 , quebec , rucinsky 1 \( lapointe , sundin \) pp , 18 31 4 , quebec , sakic 1 \( lapointe \) 19 12 overtime 5 , quebec , young 1 \( ricci , duchesne \) 16 49 quebec 3 power play 4 1 scorer g pts duchesne 0 1 1 lapointe 0 2 2 ricci 0 1 1 rucinsky 1 0 1 sakic 1 0 1 sundin 0 1 1 young 1 0 1 montreal 2 power play 1 0 scorer g pts bellows 1 0 1 brunet 0 1 1 desjardins 0 1 1 dionne 1 0 1 dipietro 0 1 1 muller 0 1 1
subject college hockey star roster miavx1 acs muohio edu organization miami university academic computer service lines 2 could someone please post rosters college hockey star game east west rosters \? thanks advance
holger ohlwein ap mchp sni de \( holger ohlwein \) subject wc 93 results , april 18 reply holger ohlwein ap mchp sni de \( holger ohlwein \) organization siemens nixdorf ag lines 24 nntp posting host 139 21 16 6 article 1993apr21 ericsson se , etxonss ufsa ericsson se \( staffan axelsson \) writes ok , forgot czech roster home yesterday , n't know teams players , would appreciate guys could fill blanks \( especially think players play finland \) czech republic goaltenders 1 petr briza \( finland somewhere , right \? \) signed contract ev , germany 1993 94 season defense 3 leo \? ec muenchen , germany since 1992 holger e e n holger ohlwein otto hahn ring 6 8000 muenchen 83 tel 49 \( 89 \) 636 email holger ohlwein ap mchp sni de n x r f never put till tomorrow avoid together
icop csa bu edu \( antonio pera \) subject request list boston univ players nhl distribution na organization computer science department , boston university , boston , , usa lines 6 originator icop csa proud bu , 'd like get list bu players nhl keep eye progress lot graduating year hope see soon nhl somebody could post send list , 'd appreciate please note player graduated
gibson bill applelink apple com \( bill gibson \) subject sharks kingston fired ! ! ! organization apple computer , inc lines 8 overheard san jose coach george kingston officially terminated today maybe good news , maybe bad kinda liked , seemed lack certain fire bill gibson gibson bill applelink apple com chief technical applelink gibson bill apple computer , inc say sharks ! ! !
kkeller mail sas upenn edu \( keith keller \) subject detroit toronto \? organization university pennsylvania , school arts sciences lines 10 nntp posting host mail sas upenn edu 's deal \? c h nothing yet ot , , \? want know ! want know ! 's roger need \? ! \? ! \? ! \? ! \) keith keller let's go rangers ! ! ! ! ! let's go quakers ! ! ! ! ! kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs ! ! ! ! cow vegetarian dish keith keller , 1993
kkeller mail sas upenn edu \( keith keller \) subject goalie mask poll organization university pennsylvania , school arts sciences lines 15 nntp posting host mail sas upenn edu article hydra gatech edu gtd597a prism gatech edu \( hrivnak \) writes current votes favorite goalie masks \( 3pts 1st , 2nd , 3rd \) others receiving less mike vernon \( cal \) , clint glenn healy \( nyi \) , toy \( \? \? \? \) , gilles \( \? \? \? \) , tony esposito \? memory serves correctly , chicago god hope right , otherwise never hear end \) keith keller let's go rangers ! ! ! ! ! let's go quakers ! ! ! ! ! kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs ! ! ! ! cow vegetarian dish keith keller , 1993
mfoster alliant backbone uoknor edu \( marc foster \) subject final season chl stuff originator news essex ecn uoknor edu distribution na nntp posting host essex ecn uoknor edu organization university oklahoma , norman , ok lines 218 final stats chl 1992 1993 season central hockey league memorial drive suite 205 tulsa , ok phone \( 918 \) 664 fax \( 918 \) 664 2215 founder president ray miron commissioner monte miron marketing director jim goodman information director eric kolb team owned league , local controlling day day operations working agreements nhl affiliations team team 100 , 000 salary cap 17 total players \( 16 dress \) team limited 11 , meaning least 6 players must americans \( ignore rule tulsa , 2 americans roster playoffs \) teams play wichita , tulsa , oklahoma city , memphis , fort worth , dallas future expansion plans include houston , san antonio , rouge , little rock , el paso , albuquerque , tuscon , austin possibility dallas move houston san antonio fall , rouge little rock likely 94 95 teams fort worth fire wichita thunder arena tarrant co conv cen \( 11 , 342 \) kansas coliseum \( 9 , 686 \) colors red black blue , silver , black gm george bill coach pete doug phone \( 817 \) 335 fire \( 316 \) 264 season tix 300 240 250 170 single tix 12 10 9 6 radio announcers dallas freeze tulsa oilers arena fair park coliseum \( 7 , 500 \) civic center \( 6 , 847 \) colors teal black orange blue gm tom koch jeff lund coach ron flockhart gary unger personal guardians phone \( 214 \) 421 puck \( 918 \) 663 5888 season tix 300 240 ray monte single tix 12 10 7 9 6 miron radio 660 announcers bruce levine jeff mark stone jeff bowen memphis river kings oklahoma city blazers arena mid south coliseum \( 9 , 384 \) myriad \( 13 , 399 \) state fair arena colors gold black red , yellow , black \( 9 , 760 \) gm jim riggs brad lund coach steve carlson mike phone \( 901 \) 278 \( 405 \) 235 puck season tix 250 170 single tix 9 6 9 6 radio 600 640 announcers dave john brooks tom brian 92 93 regular season standings w l pts gf ga pim avg \( cap \) oklahoma city blazers 39 18 3 81 291 232 7 , 827 64 2 tulsa ice oilers 35 22 3 73 270 230 1430 5 , 547 81 0 dallas freeze 31 25 4 66 276 242 1604 4 , 427 59 0 memphis 26 27 7 59 253 272 1670 5 , 590 59 6 fort worth fire 24 29 7 55 252 288 4 , 920 43 7 wichita thunder 25 33 2 52 242 320 1876 4 , 474 46 2 playoffs tulsa defeated dallas , 4 games 3 \( \) oklahoma city defeated memphis , 4 games 2 \( \) levin trophy finals tulsa defeated oklahoma city , 4 games 1 \( \) playoff mvp tony , tulsa \( special votes ray monte miron \) team vs team 92 93 dallas fort worth memphis oklahoma city tulsa wichita dallas 9 2 1 5 5 2 5 6 1 5 7 0 7 5 0 fort worth 3 7 2 4 6 2 4 8 0 8 3 1 5 5 2 memphis 7 4 1 8 3 1 2 8 2 2 8 2 7 4 1 oklahoma city 7 4 1 8 3 1 10 2 0 6 6 0 8 3 1 tulsa 7 5 0 4 7 1 10 2 0 6 6 0 8 2 2 wichita 5 7 0 7 3 2 5 7 0 4 8 0 4 8 0 power play statistics penalty statistics ppg pct ppg saves pct city 70 275 2 25 45 city 58 241 299 16 80 60 tulsa 72 291 12 24 74 dallas 68 278 346 14 80 34 dallas 64 286 10 22 37 tulsa 77 276 353 16 78 18 fort worth 85 387 16 21 96 wichita 75 235 310 5 75 806 wichita 81 396 24 20 45 memphis 83 260 343 12 75 801 memphis 65 329 12 19 75 fort worth 76 237 313 13 75 71 penalty record 10 min game gross pim avg minor major bench misc misc misc match pim wichita 1876 31 3 433 84 20 22 24 0 3 1998 fort worth 29 1 471 59 29 26 23 2 0 1911 memphis 1670 27 8 480 56 28 28 13 1 1 dallas 1604 26 7 477 60 2 20 15 0 0 city 26 0 438 67 14 14 21 0 0 tulsa 1430 23 8 505 26 6 21 8 0 0 scoring period 1st period 2nd period 3rd period overtime shootout totals gf ga gf ga gf ga gf ga gf ga gf ga dallas 76 82 106 82 90 74 0 1 4 3 276 242 fort worth 70 81 92 112 84 88 3 5 3 2 252 288 memphis 66 88 101 89 82 88 2 3 2 4 253 272 city 98 87 82 71 108 71 1 1 2 2 291 232 tulsa 99 58 92 83 76 86 3 1 0 2 270 230 wichita 79 92 73 109 84 117 2 0 4 2 242 320 92 93 star team position first team second team goaltender tony martino , tulsa robert desjardins , wichita \( tie \) alan perry , oklahoma city \( tie \) defensemen dave , dallas mike berger , dallas guy , oklahoma city tom , tulsa center carl boudreau , oklahoma city joe burton , oklahoma city left wing sylvain fleury , oklahoma city doug lawrence , tulsa right wing daniel , oklahoma city tom mutch , memphis \( tie sylvain , tulsa \( tie \) regular season mvp sylvain fleury , oklahoma city rookie year bobby desjardins , wichita leading defenseman dave , dallas leading goaltender tony martino , tulsa scoring leaders points team gp g pts goals team gp g fleury , sylvain okc 59 48 53 101 fleury , sylvain okc 53 48 lawrence , doug tul 57 22 73 95 , daniel okc 48 43 , sylvain tul 58 39 48 87 mutch , tom mem 59 43 mutch , tom mem 59 43 38 81 , ken mem 54 40 hall , taylor tul 58 35 45 80 , sylvain tul 58 39 , ken mem 54 40 35 75 taylor , jason dal 60 38 , wayne dal 57 35 37 72 boudreau , carl okc 48 27 44 71 assists team gp , daniel okc 48 43 27 70 lawrence , doug tul 57 73 taylor , jason dal 60 38 32 70 fleury , sylvain okc 59 53 dent , ted wch 60 25 44 69 , sylvain tul 58 48 sanderson , mike ftw 60 37 31 68 , dave dal 50 46 , dave wch 58 35 32 67 hall , taylor tul 58 45 , mario tul 54 31 34 65 , guy okc 60 45 , keith wch 58 21 44 65 , peter mem 60 28 35 63 penalty minutes team gp pim johnston , scot mem 51 23 40 63 , ron ftw 28 237 burton , joe okc 55 35 26 61 , tom tul 56 235 , steve okc 56 33 28 61 johnson , craig okc 50 219 , ernest ftw 52 22 37 59 , greg wch 34 212 , tony tul 37 23 35 58 batten , john mem 29 210 , dave dal 50 10 46 56 taylor , jason dal 60 210 leading goaltenders \( 20 games \) team gpi min gaa w l en ga saves save pct martino , tony tul 39 3 66 23 13 2 0 2 133 1186 899 perry , alan okc 40 3 72 25 13 2 3 0 149 1304 897 , mike dal 40 3 78 24 14 2 3 1 150 1223 891 , mem 56 4 15 26 21 6 4 1 214 1603 882 smith , greg dal 21 4 15 7 11 2 0 0 86 753 897 desjardins , bobby wch 52 4 63 21 26 2 6 1 220 1877 895 , ftw 33 4 75 14 13 2 3 0 141 974 874 goalies team gpi min gaa w l en ga saves save pct , brian tul 11 488 3 44 4 3 1 1 1 28 274 907 , paul okc 17 1029 3 50 13 3 1 0 0 60 583 907 , jamie tul 13 681 3 79 6 5 0 1 0 43 399 903 , matt ftw 4 179 3 69 3 1 0 1 0 11 100 901 , matt tul 1 34 5 29 0 0 0 0 0 3 13 813 \( totals \) 5 213 3 94 3 1 0 1 0 14 113 890 raymond , eric tul 3 181 3 98 2 1 0 0 0 12 87 879 , michael ftw 18 911 4 28 6 6 2 0 0 65 559 896 , steve mem 15 535 5 16 0 6 1 4 0 46 235 836 , ftw 17 746 4 99 1 9 3 3 0 62 365 855 , okc 2 120 6 50 0 2 0 0 0 13 93 877 \( totals \) 19 866 5 20 1 11 3 3 0 75 458 859 harvey , alain wch 5 240 5 50 2 2 0 2 0 22 126 851 gosselin , wch 10 345 6 43 2 3 0 0 0 37 227 860 gosselin , okc 1 60 5 00 1 0 0 0 0 5 26 839 \( totals \) 11 405 6 22 3 3 0 0 0 42 253 896 , murray wch 2 120 9 00 0 2 0 0 0 18 84 824 mcdonnell , dan tul 1 34 8 83 0 0 0 0 0 5 24 828 sauer , e j tul 1 12 10 00 0 0 0 0 0 2 4 667 clark , joel wch 2 48 10 00 0 0 0 0 0 8 29 784 , steve wch 2 24 12 50 0 0 0 0 0 5 6 545 marc dee foster , r h contact chl
mmb lamar colostate edu \( michael burger \) subject tv info distribution na nntp posting host lamar acns colostate edu organization colorado state university , fort collins , co 80523 lines 36 united states coverage sunday april 18 n j n pittsburgh 1 00 edt eastern time zone abc gary thorne bill clement st louis chicago 12 00 cdt 11 00 mdt central mountain zones abc mike jim los angeles calgary 12 00 pdt 11 00 pacific alaskan zones abc al michaels john davidson tuesday , april 20 n j n pittsburgh 7 30 edt nationwide espn gary thorne bill clement thursday , april 22 saturday april 24 announced 7 30 edt nationwide espn announced canadian coverage sunday , april 18 buffalo boston 7 30 edt nationwide tsn \? \? \? tuesday , april 20 n j n pittsburgh 7 30 edt nationwide tsn \? \? \? wednesday , april 21 st louis chicago 8 30 edt nationwide tsn \? \? \?
organization city university new york harold zazula dlmqc cunyvm bitnet subject octopus detroit \? lines 9 watching detroit minnesota game last night thought saw octopus ice ysebaert scored tie game two gives \? \( custom throw octopuses ice detroit \? \) responsible ! ! harold zazula dlmqc cunyvm cuny edu acc qc edu
jmd cbnewsm cb att com \( joseph dakes \) subject flyers year 's biggest worst \( opinion \) organization distribution na keywords nhl , awards lines 67 article 1993apr15 cbnewsh cb att com , seth cbnewsh cb att com \( peter r clark jr \) writes words , roussel shuts sharks soderstrom shuts penguins , 's immaterial coaches decision \? come , joe , think 're saying ! played significant played 's irrelevent low gaa good teams better low gaa bad teams context comparing two goaltenders low gaa better higher gaa low gaa good teams much , much better higher gaa bad teams context comparing two goaltenders let 's start i'm arguing better goaltender 'd take soderstrom right saying roussel 1 gaa difference less half goal per game \( less last night \) , save percentages close , records similar , n't see label roussel disappointing player flyers season say soderstrom played better competition may well , way knowing roussel would performed games besides , better scoring teams like pittsburgh , defense keyed san jose roussel ranger game two real scoring chances , one made great play , saved mistake player judging roussel game alone , little go i'm judging roussel game alone 've seen play past two seasons philly hershey 's opinion , think 's got takes course , thought mark , never wendell young i'm batting 500 judging hershey talent since hextall era rangers game , say saved mistake offensive player like leg position make save n't , would n't rangers player n't get puck would goal breakaway 's goalie wants , take away much possible force shooter beat look 0 0 tie habs , saw goalie stand head get shutout 1 goalie action roussel n't game like seem remember roussel excellent job opening night give flyers tie two time defending champs take anything away soderstrom game agains habs ca n't tell montreal player open net shoot point game flat missed mistakes , offense defense part game 'd never shutouts anyway , i'm happy flyers soderstrom roussel i'm going argue anymore besides , current 7 game winning streak expectations soaring next year , n't want piss point n't sell tickets next season \) joe dakes microelectronics 555 union boulevard , pa let's go flyers ! ! jmd jmd att com
lli cs cmu edu \( lori iannamico \) subject goalie masks nntp posting host lli mach cs cmu edu organization school computer science , carnegie mellon lines 21 tom barrasso wore great mask , one time , last season unveiled game boston black , pgh city scenes golden triangle \( pgh 's downtown area 3 rivers meet \) top , along steel mill one side civic arena \( think \) back helmet old pens' logo \( really fat little penguin blue scarf \) current \( time \) pens logo , space new \( current \) logo tommy designed mask , mother \( artist \) painted wearing mask , pens got bruins next game , tommy back old paint job great mask done goalie 's superstition lori
nlu xenon stanford edu \( nelson lu \) subject pens info needed organization computer science department , stanford university lines 20 article 1993apr16 jyu fi mikkot romulus math jyu fi \( mikko tarkiainen \) writes coaching news alpo suhonen \( ex jets \) jokerit \( verified \) , boris majorov \( ex jokerit \) tappara , vasili tichonov \( ex assat \) san jose sharks \( assistant coach \) , sakari lulea \( silver team elite \) wow 's probably reason current assistant coach drew hinted wo n't back thanks news , mikko \( finnish netters \) comment tichonov \? go calgary flames ! al macinnis norris ! gary roberts hart smythe ! go edmonton oilers ! go playoffs next year ! stay edmonton ! nelson lu \( claudius leland stanford edu \) rec sport hockey contact san jose sharks
jaracz oz plymouth edu \( david r jaracz \) subject octopus detroit \? organization plymouth state college plymouth , nh lines 16 article 93106 cunyvm bitnet harold zazula dlmqc cunyvm bitnet writes watching detroit minnesota game last night thought saw octopus ice ysebaert scored tie game two gives \? ! ! ! 's squid ! keep tradition alive ! \( kinda like fish unh games \) \( custom throw octopuses ice detroit \? \) responsible ! ! harold zazula dlmqc cunyvm cuny edu acc qc edu
nhmas gauss med harvard edu \( mark shneyder 432 4219 \) subject tv schedule next week distribution na organization hms lines 54 nntp posting host gauss med harvard edu article apr16 yuma acns colostate edu mmb lamar colostate edu \( michael burger \) writes united states tv schedule april 18 devils islanders pittsburgh 1 est abc \( eastern time zone \) april 18 st louis chicago 12 cdt abc \( cent mou time zones \) april 18 los angeles calgary 12 pdt abc \( pacific time zone \) april 20 devils islanders pittsburgh 7 30 espn april 22 tba 7 30 espn april 24 tba 7 30 espn little supplement basic mike 's info 's opener abc , announcing crews devils isles pittsburgh gary thorne \( play play \) , bill clement \( color \) al roaming halls outside dressing rooms telecast primarily seen east coast st louis chicago mike emrick \( play play \) , jim \( color \) tom mees roaming halls telecast primarily seen midwest parts south la calgary al believe \? michaels \( play play \) , john davidson \( color \) mark jones roaming reporter telecast seen western usa montreal 's , jon hosting studio abc close personal mario saturday 's wide world sports \( 4 \) sunday first nhl playoff regular network telecast 13 years counting silly star games nbc last years sunday 's games , abc use 8 mikes \( 2 behind goal \) , super super slo mo , close ups player 's faces face offs espn abc able use new favorite toy , ice level shot , pittsburgh many seats would removed employ case blowout progress pittsburgh , abc switch chicago game come back pittsburgh game updates game gets closer \( ha ! \) abc expects huge ratings \( hockey standards \) since 3 top us tv markets involved ny metro area \( ny islanders nj devils \) , chicago \( blackhawks \) , la \( kings \) stay tuned , thanks mike , ppv mark
gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) subject rumour keenan signs rangers \? nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) organization phds hall lines 14 upi clarinet relayed scoop toronto sun \( star \? like star \) iron mike keenan come agreement new york rangers next season interestingly , comes day times sports editorial rangers need pat riley cares happens next season \? gld je souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go ! ! ! gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
gibson nukta geop ubc ca \( brad gibson \) subject plus minus stat organization dept astronomy univ british columbia lines 48 nntp posting host nukta astro ubc ca article 1993apr16 sol uvic ca gballent hudson uvic ca writes article blue cis pitt edu , jrmst8 pitt edu \( joseph r mcdonald \) writes jagr higher , francis points take informed observer , ronnie francis much better season jaromir jagr take anything away jaro , decent year \( although n't live expectations \) bowman tended francis times bowman style player plays hard times , n't disregard defensive responsibilities good leader bowman rewarded increasing ice time jagr arrogant juvenile display first attitude rubbed bowman wrong way caused lose ice time throughout year , francis consistently recieved ice time jagr never seen stats subject , pretty sure jagr points per minute played francis add jagr 's better rating , think becomes evident jagr better season francis bad one actually , think become evident , determined flaunt ignorance cost jagr better season francis suggest otherwise insult modicum hockey knowledge save almost devotion almighty plus minus misleading hockey stat available nhl publishes useful quantifiable statistic including ice time per game measure quality \( e , player put key situations like protecting lead late game matched team 's top one two lines short handed , etc \) , would much rather see disappear altogether instead dubious merits trumpeted little understanding implications brad brad k gibson internet gibson geop ubc ca dept geophysics astronomy 129 main mall phone \( 604 \) 822 university british columbia fax \( 604 \) 822 vancouver , british columbia , canada v6t 1z4
alan lancaster nsc com \( hepburn \) subject hockey hispanic community organization national semiconductor corporation lines 73 article saross01 starbase spd louisville edu , saross01 starbase spd louisville edu \( stacey ross \) writes c5i2s2 3bt odin corp sgi com rickc wrigley corp sgi com \( richard casares \) writes 'll hard time selling sport community ca n't play account availability financial reasons hockey pretty much sport white well \? ! white , yes well , definitely hockey season ticket owners lowest average income four major north american sports basis claim \? try stats \( taken playboy magazine june 1989 \) percentage pro football fans attended college 39 7 percentage pro baseball fans attended college 41 5 percentage pro basketball fans attended college 39 9 percentage pro hockey fans attended college 54 6 percentage pro football fans earn 50k 34 9 percentage pro baseball fans make 50k 22 7 percentage pro basketball fans make 50k 27 7 percentage pro fans make 50k 44 0 think majority hockey players come farm , saskatchewan , alberta biggest advantage kids availability ice san jose area population 800 , 000 population served 2 ice arenas contrast , kamloops , british columbia population 50 , 000 5 rinks ! also myriad , pools , etc freeze winter 's hard find kid without bicycle 's hard find kid without pair skates say know \? 's california let say born raised trail , british columbia , town 8 , 000 lots ice winter father radio play play local team , trail , way , last canadian team win world championship \( back 1961 \) skates almost soon could walk , playing recreational hockey 35 years last time saw hockey league inner city insurance alone big enough barrier inner city n't place poor think biggest barrier hockey inner city ice play lack ice big factor , costs bigger factor kids play santa clara valley hockey association season , ended , cost 75 per kid membership hockey usa , plus 750 per kid club dues hockey usa fees cover excess medical insurance , club dues cover ice time , officials , trophies , etc areas similar fees , unless city government costs , stockton way ice arenas located could called inner city areas exceptions redwood city 's rink industrial area bay rd , near 101 , berkeley 's near ashby martin luther king , stockton 's oak park , sacramento 's older section downtown \( forget name street \) , fresno 's edge town , west 99 santa rosa 's nice rink , 's older section town dublin 's outside town , 580 rinks old , expensive run , huge electric bills insurance premiums want buy ice time expect pay around 100 per hour rinks give 60 minute hour money others give 50 minute hour include time fee alan hepburn man n't know knows national semiconductor knows n't know santa clara , ca alan nsc com thomas
ccwf cc utexas edu \( david weinberg \) subject octopus detroit \? organization university texas austin , austin tx tradition octopus started back 1950s tradition toss octopus ice first play games needed eight wins cup today people toss anytime gets near play offs lines 3 nntp posting host cc utexas edu david
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject rumour keenan signs rangers \? organization university toronto chemistry department lines 22 article 1993apr16 784 news columbia edu gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) writes upi clarinet relayed scoop toronto sun \( star \? like star \) iron mike keenan come agreement new york rangers next season interestingly , comes day times sports editorial rangers need pat riley cares happens next season \? rumour basically everywhere toronto based reports keenan told san jose philadelphia longer interested pursuing negotiations either team ranger announcement supposed happen tomorrow supposedly rangers many veterans get coach weight proven record know messier respects gerald
jbrown vax cns muskingum edu subject blackhawks win ! ! ! organization muskingum college lines 10 hawks win ! ! roenick scored 50 th goal hawks put leafs place , losers column leafs even beat hawks match little meaning hate see wings oh btw laugh rm , jerky ! ! ! go hawks ! ! ! jb
gjhsun \( george h \) subject octopus detroit \? organization michigan state university lines 17 nntp posting host gjhsun cl msu edu harold zazula dlmqc cunyvm bitnet writes watching detroit minnesota game last night thought saw octopus ice ysebaert scored tie game two gives \? \( custom throw octopuses ice detroit \? \) long standing good luck 's tradition throw octopus ice stanley cup game say dates back wings became 1st team \( think \) sweep cup 8 games lot throw one joe louis seats old balcony , though funniest ever saw tiger fans threw one field detroit toronto baseball game living california folks watching never heard hockey recognized octopus camera closeup ! !
smorris venus lerc nasa gov \( ron morris \) subject blackhawks win ! ! ! organization nasa lewis research center lines 19 distribution world nntp posting host venus lerc nasa gov news software vax vms vnews 1 41 1993apr16 vax cns edu , jbrown vax cns muskingum edu writes hawks win ! ! roenick scored 50 th goal hawks put leafs place , losers column leafs even beat hawks match little meaning hate see wings oh btw laugh rm , jerky ! ! ! would appreciate would refer mr maynard initials thanks , see norris finals ron one major goals leave next president new set things worry i'm getting bored reading problems paper , decade decade want people deal new problems president bill clinton 2 4 93
dreier berkeley edu \( roland dreier \) subject plus minus stat organization u c berkeley math department lines 59 ucs ubc ca nntp posting host berkeley edu reply gibson nukta geop ubc ca 's message 16 apr 1993 18 20 17 gmt article ucs ubc ca gibson nukta geop ubc ca \( brad gibson \) writes article 1993apr16 sol uvic ca gballent hudson uvic ca writes article blue cis pitt edu , jrmst8 pitt edu \( joseph r mcdonald \) writes jagr higher , francis points take informed observer , ronnie francis much better season jaromir jagr take anything away jaro , decent year \( although n't live expectations \) bowman tended francis times bowman style player plays hard times , n't disregard defensive responsibilities good leader bowman rewarded increasing ice time jagr arrogant juvenile display first attitude rubbed bowman wrong way caused lose ice time throughout year , francis consistently recieved ice time jagr never seen stats subject , pretty sure jagr points per minute played francis add jagr 's better rating , think becomes evident jagr better season francis bad one actually , think become evident , determined flaunt ignorance cost jagr better season francis suggest otherwise insult modicum hockey knowledge save almost devotion almighty plus minus misleading hockey stat available nhl publishes useful quantifiable statistic including ice time per game measure quality \( e , player put key situations like protecting lead late game matched team 's top one two lines short handed , etc \) , would much rather see disappear altogether instead dubious merits trumpeted little understanding implications thank posting person first brought fact jagr much higher francis , assure brought example absurdity comparisons , even team never , ever thought anyone would argue jagr 's higher actually reflected better two way play opinion , francis 's low purely result asked play opponents top scorers times fact chip 100 points team 's top center testament valuable , even suffers hand , jagr , big , fast skilled , ca n't even get 90 points , matter inflated \( way , n't get wrong like jagr may lazy , turns exactly right times like overtime playoff games \) roland dreier dreier math berkeley edu
gjhsun \( george h \) subject president trophy winner missing playoffs \? \? \? organization michigan state university lines 17 nntp posting host gjhsun cl msu edu seas upenn edu \( jim \) writes article vm1 mcgill ca ccdb musica mcgill ca \( \) writes last time president 's trophy winner fell last place following year \? long time , 'd bet well think 1969 montreal canadians finished 1st \( although president 's cup days \) missed playoffs 1970 recall 1970 playoff picture n't decided final day , ny rangers defeated redwings tie breaker number goals \( remember correctly \) , rangers played empty net entire game hab accused wings game keep , recall , gordie flu , coach sid abel sat , rangers redwings night
gak wrs com \( richard stueven \) subject octopus detroit \? reply gak wrs com organization wind river systems , inc lines 10 nntp posting host 's faq fun gak richard stueven aha erected multitude new internet gak wrs com go offices , sent swarms attmail ! attmail ! ! gak officers harass people , cow palace 107 h 3 4 eat substance
ns1 cc lehigh edu \( patrick \) subject keenan signs rangers ! ! organization lehigh university lines 11 heard news mike keenan formerly blackhawks , flyers , general prison signed coach rangers rangers , president 's cup last year slipped bit end season destined finish last behind lowly flyers fans going disappointed decision , interested oh well go caps ! ! ! ! ! ! !
farenebt logic camp clarkson edu \( droopy \) subject ahl final standings organization clarkson university lines 35 nntp posting host logic clarkson edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 final 1992 93 american hockey league standings northern division w l pts gf ga providence bruins 46 32 2 94 384 348 56 adirondack red wings 36 35 9 81 331 308 84 capital district isles 34 34 12 80 280 285 75 springfield indians 25 41 14 64 282 336 94 new senators 22 47 11 55 262 343 southern division w l pts gf ga binghamton rangers 57 13 10 124 392 246 91 rochester americans 40 33 7 87 348 332 86 utica devils 33 36 11 77 325 354 74 baltimore skipjacks 28 40 12 68 318 353 66 hershey bears 27 41 12 66 316 339 83 hamilton canucks 29 45 6 64 284 327 atlantic division w l pts gf ga st john 's maple leafs 41 26 13 95 351 308 90 fredericton canadiens 38 31 11 87 314 278 96 cape breton oilers 36 32 12 84 356 336 82 moncton hawks 31 33 16 78 292 306 74 halifax citadels 33 37 10 76 312 348 67 last year 's point total league record total bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl , ecac boston bruins contact rec sport hockey adirondack red wings , calder cup champs '81 '86 '89 '92 clarkson hockey , ecac tournament champs '66 '91 '93 glens falls high hockey , ny division ii state champs '90 '91 ahl fans join ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu
esd sgi com \( ed nolan \) subject devils islanders tiebreaker \? \? \? \? organization silicon graphics , inc lines 4 nntp posting host esd sgi com islanders beat devils tonight , would finish identical records 's lucky team gets face penguins opening round \? also , somebody list rules breaking ties
cray com \( charles betz cf eng \) subject nhl team milwaukee lines 24 nntp posting host cray com organization cray research , inc reading reports possible nhl moves milwaukee milwaukee nhl team , thought 'd pass along story heard recently second hand , n't know true , reason doubt either bradley center milwaukee home milwaukee admirals minor hockey team owner admirals \( sorry , ca n't remember name \) either owns least shelled majority funds build bradley center supposedly approached nhl expansion franchise , turned thought franchise fee 50 million high like said , n't know whether story true rumor , 's true , n't look nhl team milwaukee anytime soon admirals n't going forced building wo n't see nhl club minor league club building , especially since nba 's milwaukee bucks play well charlie betz cray research , inc falls , wi romulus cray com
joe13 pitt edu \( joseph b stiehm \) subject beat pittsburgh ! organization university pittsburgh lines 20 article 1993apr15 guvax acc georgetown edu apanjabi guvax acc georgetown edu writes beat pittsburgh \? \? \? iii kevin stevens fighting 1 call bob probert 2 call tie domi 3 call grandmother \( 'd kick ass \) yeah 've seen 're grand mother bet could joseph stiehm
gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) subject rumour keenan signs rangers \? nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) organization phds hall lines 25 golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) writes gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) writes ranger announcement supposed happen tomorrow supposedly press conference rangers many veterans get coach weight proven record know messier respects interestingly , keenan 's co coach \( number one \? \) team canada world championships roger neilsen 'd interesting rangers call balance neilsen 's contract keenan 's assistant roger good job mediocre players , handled cinderella canucks 10 years ago mistake playing rangers like canucks last may gld je souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go ! ! ! gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
andrew cmu edu subject patrick playoffs look like organization freshman , physics , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 20 bson hal gnu ai mit edu nntp posting host po5 andrew cmu edu reply bson hal gnu ai mit edu jan brittenson writes last year pens' weak spot defense goaltending boston boston n't guns pens , pens n't defense , goaltending , discipline boston still , boston say \? , pens bruins played number games , given number goals tied third fourth best defenses league , behind chicago first toronto second pens' weak spot defense \? comparison offense , second league detroit pens weaker defense goaltending bruins , strong terry
mep phoenix oulu fi \( marko poutiainen \) subject finland sweden vs nhl teams \( helsinki stockholm nhl expansion \) organization university oulu , finland x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 40 finland jyrki lumme 20 teppo numminen 20 peter ahola 13 well well , n't like defenders \( mainly lumme numminen \) c jari kurri 25 c christian ruuttu 16 , think ruuttu worth 16 \? think might 20 r teemu selanne 27 compared kurri , selanne 's points high , lets make 25 26 well canada cup world championships largely due efforts markus ketterer \( goalie \) , 3 4 players listed luck 's presumably lot decent players finland would n't superstars highest level still valuable role players , however guess would finnish canada cup team would 500 team nhl wow , , looks like n't like players \? guys like nieminen , , riihijarvi , varvio , , makela , \( even aging \) \? main difference finnish north american players , players tend better larger rink canadian defenders usually slower defenders europe think success ketterer luck \( though helped \) think main reason , team worked well together howl gargle howl gargle howl howl howl gargle howl gargle howl howl gargle gargle howl gargle gargle gargle howl marko poutiainen mep phoenix oulu fi
ee virginia edu \( craig allen \) subject devils islanders tiebreaker \? \? \? \? organization university virginia lines 15 according hockey gurus espn , islanders win tonite two teams record , devils playing penguins islanders season series devils think rules deciding tie breaker include 1 season series 2 goals 3 goals order \( correct i'm wrong \) anyone anything add \? craig go islanders !
mjr4u virginia edu \( matthew j rush \) subject octopus detroit \? organization university virginia lines 16 jaracz oz plymouth edu writes article 93106 cunyvm bitnet harold zazula dlmqc cunyvm bitnet writes watching detroit minnesota game last night thought saw octopus ice ysebaert scored tie game two gives \? ! ! ! 's squid ! keep tradition alive ! \( kinda like fish unh games \) actually , way understand , apparently , number years ago , fan threw ice announcer said occupy ice something like , 's happened ever since fans cheer pick dead hands , boo use shovel matt uva
ubvmsd cc buffalo edu \( ralph l \) subject devils islanders tiebreaker \? \? \? \? organization university buffalo lines 15 news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host ubvmsd cc buffalo edu article 77u odin corp sgi com , esd sgi com \( ed nolan \) writes islanders beat devils tonight , would finish identical records 's lucky team gets face penguins opening round \? also , somebody list rules breaking ties sure tie breaker rules however , think islanders win \( oh god , please , please let win \) , islanders win series nj advances third course one asked , always interject opinions concern go islanders ! ! ! ! ! \( mean come , jets bad enough go jets '93
gballent hudson uvic ca \( greg ballentine \) subject plus minus stat nntp posting host hudson uvic ca reply gballent hudson uvic ca organization university victoria , victoria , bc , canada lines 47 article ucs ubc ca , gibson nukta geop ubc ca \( brad gibson \) writes response debate better season jagr francis think jagr probably better point per minute ice time stats n't exist properly analyze better actually , think become evident , determined flaunt ignorance cost jagr better season francis suggest otherwise insult modicum hockey knowledge save almost devotion almighty plus minus misleading hockey stat available nhl publishes useful quantifiable statistic including ice time per game measure quality \( e , player put key situations like protecting lead late game matched team 's top one two lines short handed , etc \) , would much rather see disappear altogether instead dubious merits trumpeted little understanding implications useful statistic player ice team scores lot goals allows goals , must something right especially useful compare teammates play team roughly similar ratings equally good players adjusted varying degrees success compare players different teams agree would nice nhl keep statistics useful ones suggest \? \? total ice time would useful missing stat jagr vs francis arguments somehow measuring quality ice time suggest would useless would better stat evaluating coaching ie players given quality ice time actually talented ones \? good player could given low amounts quality ice time team depth stupid coach n't recognize talent bad player could given lots quality ice time lack team depth stupid coach thinks effective player stat would much flawed almost conclusions could drawn regarding player talent useful stat quite useful evaluating player talent one displaying ignorance unwillingness see ice goals scored allowed positive thing evaluated gregmeister
ucsd edu \( bjorn karlsson \) subject wc 93 results , april 20 organization university california , san diego lines 12 nntp posting host ucsd edu article 1993apr21 ericsson se etxonss ufsa ericsson se \( staffan axelsson \) writes 1993 world championships germany games shown us wc \? \? \? thanks mc
anna matyas am2x andrew cmu edu subject abc coverage organization h ss dean 's office , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 25 distribution usa 1993apr20 alchemy chem utoronto ca nntp posting host po3 andrew cmu edu reply 1993apr20 alchemy chem utoronto ca gerald olchowy writes clement , although pleasant personality \( pleasant opinion \) , terrible analyst , almost alway wrong example new jersey 's first goal last sunday grew dick irvin color beside danny gallivan knew irvin , dick irvin friend mine bill clement n't dick irvin long teams involved include us national team new york rangers , 'd take john davidson bill clement day personality means something exactly like clement \( emrick \) hand , jd pompous , bull headed , arrogant know 's real turn \( exactly 's \) one complaint clement sometimes talks much wanted 'd listen tim baseball game mom
william k willis ww1a andrew cmu edu subject let's go buffalo ! organization administrative computing info services , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 3 nntp posting host po2 andrew cmu edu know , never really appreciated !
robert angelo pleshar rp16 andrew cmu edu subject wirtz weenie organization university libraries e library , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 18 blue cis pitt edu nntp posting host po2 andrew cmu edu reply blue cis pitt edu dean tv news , penguins announced yesterday 3 fewer broadcast tv games , 22 \( ! \) games sort subscription pay per view system yuck incorrect year pens 61 games free tv 6 games ppv next year 62 games free tv 22 subscription basis actually get 1 free game last year , radio games yes , 're right going home reading paper , got full details 's get making post based 's news know get every sports related item wrong ralph
william k willis ww1a andrew cmu edu subject cherry help , organization administrative computing info services , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 12 nntp posting host andrew cmu edu person rarely even seen cherry n't know anything , n't know whether area \( pittsburgh \) usa deprived broadcasts whether 's canadian thing altogether seriously , \? know coach one time , volume posts , someone surely getting steady diet somehow , question , deal \? secondly , comments read net merely flame bait , people actually take seriously \? gotta tell , see , really sounds like ass let know maybe i'm missing something
organization university notre dame office univ computing vma cc nd edu subject new div 1 ncaa teams lines 9 great hear umass bringing back hockey ! reminded couple years ago talk \( sp \? \) mankato state trying upgrade programs div 1 status also seem remember trouble new ncaa rule allowed compete div 1 level ever resolved \? also , wondering college hockey east colorado \( alaska excepted \) new popularity hockey west coast , would expect interest building collegiate levels anyone heard anything \? james old , e mail vma cc nd edu
popovich cs columbia edu \( steve popovich \) subject truly sad day hockey reply anna matyas 's message fri , 16 apr 1993 13 34 29 0400 organization columbia university lines 19 mom writes fear within next decade professional sports team left pittsburgh steelers perish thought know , may right , least far major league professional sports teams go seem becoming big money games , much previous time think ever able move back home several years , may ahl team , best sigh interesting thing nhl also expanding , time dramatically increasing amount money needed operate team would seem indicate 's big shake occur next years , unless player salaries somehow brought control frankly , n't see nhl 's current drive expansion supportable current operating conditions revenue sharing salary cap n't come nhl soon , look steve
rick emma wimsey bc ca \( rick \) subject stats hockey pool distribution world bcc emma ! rick reply rick emma wimsey bc ca x newsreader v1 00 lines 13 i'm keeper stats family hockey pool i'm looking daily weekly email servers playoff stats 've connected servers j militzok skidmore edu wilson cs ucf edu i'm still sorting two others \? email please site n't get group thanks rick rick emma wimsey bc ca rick emma wimsey bc ca
steven kipling freddy ersys edmonton ab ca \( steven kipling \) subject nhl team captains reply steven kipling freddy ersys edmonton ab ca \( steven kipling \) distribution world organization freddy 's place bbs edmonton , ab 403 456 4241 lines 54 quoting cire trehguad cyt michael collingridge writes , subject , captain ever traded , resigned , striped title season \? team captain trivia would appreciated cyt cyt n't ron francis captain whalers traded cyt pittsburgh \? cyt rick captain flyers traded pens cyt recently cyt caleb cyt let us forget new jersey devils traded cyt captain kirk muller stephen richer cyt man hated trade ! well team captains traded first year nhl edmonton oilers traded captain ron quebec nordique right trading deadline goaltender ron lowe second year existence edmonton oilers right trade deadline traded captain , time b j mcdonald vancouver canucks along rights winger ken berry garry rights lars gunner captain trivia , next edmonton captain lee later traded buffalo sabres , wayne gretzky traded l , came kevin low year traded n rangers every captain edmonton oilers traded present captain craig 'll wait see well talk later steve answers 1 , short 5 , correct 25 , dumb looks still free blue wave qwk v2 12
gtd597a prism gatech edu \( hrivnak \) subject goodbye , good riddance , get lost 'stars organization georgia institute technology lines 13 article sms business uwo ca s4lawren sms business uwo ca \( stephen lawrence \) writes goodbye minnesota , never earned right nhl franchise first place ! whatta weird town ! ! ! ! ! whatta ass ! ! ! ! ! go skins ! next question emotional music quite go braves ! effect \? mike patton , faith go hornets ! go capitals ! mike friedman \( hrivnak fan ! \) internet gtd597a prism gatech edu
young soo che andrew cmu edu subject nhlpa poll \( partial stats results \) organization freshman , h ss general , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 6 nntp posting host andrew cmu edu reply 1800 muller loria fr people send polls take closer look njd , deep team , two capable goalies , excellent forwards defensemen shooter richer , around todd , chef stasny master thousand dishes , power play captain stevens take look numbers , play see
lange reg triumf ca \( threading canadian \) subject detroit playoff tradition organization triumf tri university meson facility lines 11 distribution world nntp posting host reg triumf ca keywords octopi news software vax vms vnews 1 41 way back early years \( 50 's \) took 8 wins garner stanley cup , couple local fish \( local joe louis arena , \) started tradition throwing octopi onto ice every win victory , one leg would severed octopus found way ice \( dead way \) brilliant marketing strategy shore demand one least popular products hope helps j lange
gballent hudson uvic ca \( greg ballentine \) subject roger maynard nntp posting host hudson uvic ca reply gballent hudson uvic ca organization university victoria , victoria , bc , canada lines 15 anyone recieve annoying email roger maynard whenever post article telling leave alon stop posting group \? \? emails filled insults usual roger 's posts little hockey info recieved two last 2 days wondering special roger trys bully everyone disagrees gregmeister obligatory hockey comment highly unlikely maple leafs even get division
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject devils islanders tiebreaker \? \? \? \? organization university toronto chemistry department lines 16 article murdoch acc virginia edu ee virginia edu \( craig allen \) writes according hockey gurus espn , islanders win tonite two teams record , devils playing penguins islanders season series devils think rules deciding tie breaker include 1 season series 2 goals 3 goals order \( correct i'm wrong \) anyone anything add \? thought 1 \) wins 2 \) goals gerald
tvartiai vipunen hut fi \( tommi vartiainen \) subject finland sweden vs nhl teams \( helsinki stockholm nhl expansion \) nntp posting host vipunen hut fi organization helsinki university technology , finland lines 51 1993apr16 ousrvr oulu fi mep phoenix oulu fi \( marko poutiainen \) writes finland jyrki lumme 20 teppo numminen 20 peter ahola 13 well well , n't like defenders \( mainly lumme numminen \) 25 correct numminen lumme r teemu selanne 27 compared kurri , selanne 's points high , lets make 25 26 , kurri 's points low 27 kurri 28 sel nne well canada cup world championships largely due efforts markus ketterer \( goalie \) , 3 4 players listed luck 's presumably lot decent players finland would n't superstars highest level still valuable role players , however guess would finnish canada cup team would 500 team nhl wow , , looks like n't like players \? guys like nieminen , , riihijarvi , varvio , , makela , \( even aging \) \? main difference finnish north american players , players tend better larger rink canadian defenders usually slower defenders europe think success ketterer luck \( though helped \) think main reason , team worked well together 's true game different europe compared nhl north ame better small rinks europeans large rinks average european player sweden , finland , russian slovakia better skater nhl colleague especially defenders nhl mainly slow clumsy sel nne also said finnish sm league game based skill nhl finland could n't get many defenders average much better skaters nhl also alpo suhonen said nhl sel nne 's speed clumsy defensemen admit best players come canada , regulars n't regulars best european leagues also top europeans level best north americans \( except lemieux class \) tommi
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject rumour keenan signs rangers \? organization university toronto chemistry department lines 25 article 1993apr16 news columbia edu gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) writes interestingly , keenan 's co coach \( number one \? \) team canada world championships roger neilsen ultimately hockey philosophies like night day keenan believes opposition taking initiative \( within limits system \) roger reactive hockey philosophy messier able played keenan , thought roger 's way sure loser 'd interesting rangers call balance neilsen 's contract keenan 's assistant roger good job mediocre players , handled cinderella canucks 10 years ago mistake playing rangers like canucks last may roger great assistant coach considering must bad blood messier , would mistake bring back even role gerald
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject plus minus stat organization university toronto chemistry department lines 8 meaningless compare one player 's plus minus statistic another players' context role playing time players involved compare jagr 's francis 's plus minus ridiculous absurd gerald
nichols spss com \( david nichols \) subject detroit playoff tradition keywords octopi organization spss inc lines 24 article reg triumf ca lange reg triumf ca \( threading canadian \) writes way back early years \( 50 's \) took 8 wins garner stanley cup , couple local fish \( local joe louis arena , \) started tradition throwing octopi onto ice every win victory , one leg would severed octopus found way ice \( dead way \) brilliant marketing strategy shore demand one least popular products hope helps j lange local joe louis arena \? mean local stadium , red wings games played fairly recently \( early 80s comes mind \) far know , rest post basically correct meant local simply detroit i'm incredibly picky , okay , sorry david nichols senior statistical support specialist spss , inc phone \( 312 \) 329 3684 internet nichols spss com fax \( 312 \) 329 correlation views spss strictly due chance
alleg edu \( joshua atkins \) subject goalie mask update organization allegheny college article acsu buffalo edu hammerl acsu buffalo edu \( valerie hammerl \) writes article hydra gatech edu gtd597a prism gatech edu \( hrivnak \) writes results three days voting remember 3pts 1st , 2 2nd , 1 3rd also , still turn votes ! guy n't regular goalie retired , please include team ! thanks time , keep sending votes ! glenn healy \( nyi \) , tommy \( \? \? \? \) , ray leblanc \( usa \) soderstrom plays philly , n't mask 's got helmet cage variety , white least 's wore thirteen hours ago yeah soderstrom 's mask always appeared lot bigger average helmet cage variety certain appeal josh valerie hammerl days remind 's hammerl acsu buffalo edu mario lemieux herb brooks claude acscvjh ubms cc buffalo edu lemieux , top scorer devils , v085pwwpz ubvms cc buffalo edu known taking dumb penalties
lee139 gaul csd uwo ca \( steve lee \) subject stop maynard bashing ! ! ! ! \( roger maynard \) organization computer science dept , univ western ontario , london , canada distribution world summary stop nonsense ! keywords fair , post nntp posting host asterix gaul csd uwo ca lines 24 article 1993apr16 sol uvic ca gballent hudson uvic ca writes anyone recieve annoying email roger maynard whenever post article telling leave alon stop posting group \? \? emails filled insults usual roger 's posts little hockey info recieved two last 2 days wondering special roger trys bully everyone disagrees gregmeister ca n't serious ! many colleagues received bad e mails roger , fact , roger happens answered hockey questions curiosities , start flaming roger , better consider nasty attitude towards roger like ! steve lee university western ontario london , canada lee139 obelix gaul csd uwo ca
undergrad math uwaterloo ca \( \) subject flames question keywords roberts flames organization university waterloo lines 22 article ice ccu umanitoba ca ccu umanitoba ca \( timothy \) writes heard little back gary roberts would returning play calgary 's last regular season game anybody confirm \? \? 'll big help flames playoffs may change playoff pool strategy roberts played last night game sharks got goal \( \) assist definitely bolsters calgary 's chances playoffs life happens actuarial science making plans descartes uwaterloo ca university waterloo
gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) subject tv schedule next week nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) organization phds hall distribution na lines 33 jpc philabs philips com \( john p curcio \) writes mmb lamar colostate edu \( michael burger \) writes united states tv schedule april 18 devils islanders pittsburgh 1 est abc april 18 st louis chicago 12 cdt abc april 18 los angeles calgary 12 pdt abc okay , 's side espn deal additional coverage split contract , sca could least gotten like canucks jets , caps whoever red wings leafs \( whoever else playing \) april 20 devils islanders pittsburgh 7 30 espn april 22 tba 7 30 espn april 24 tba 7 30 espn anyone know alternate games cities local broadcast rights protected \? area \( islanders devils \) , 's likely bruins , since adams series montreal quebec 'd prefer latter i'm impression abc deal overrides local deals , st louis chicago pops 'll know gld je souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go ! ! ! gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
huot cray com \( tom huot \) subject bruins pens ulf fight lines 9 nntp posting host pittpa cray com organization cray research inc x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 oh , excuse wasting bandwidth , referring original incident , recent occurred past month tom huot huot cray com
scialdone nssdca gsfc nasa gov \( john scialdone \) subject cut vukota pilon ! ! ! news software vax vms vnews 1 41 organization nasa goddard space flight center lines 32 3 isles caps crap centre year , isles wins justification vukota pilon play isles vukota absolutely worst puck handler world ! ! could n't hit bull ass ! ! al must remember years back mick scored 3 goals one period caps 5 3 isles win astonished rest crowd wake al ! ! ! years later 's gotten worse 's cheap shot artist always ends getting stupid senseless penalties think would make good police ! ! ! pilon , ca n't carry puck center ice either makes bad pass resulting , attempts bring puck towards neutral zone skates right opposing skater ca n't stay skates forwards centers either falls penalty call somebody capital district al ! ! ! ! ! far playoffs , isles difficult figure caps two good teams talent inconsistent meet first round isles seem play level competition play well jersey tonite 'll probably another tight 1 goal game last 20 games isles wish get lead could continue pour instead settling back defensive shell letting opposition get back game al must understand ca n't team 80 83 isles maybe al got bobby nystrom \? \? clark gilles \? \? john tonelli \? \? kind young minds need bench ! ! fire al ! ! ! ! john scialdone scialdone nssdca gsfc nasa gov ship comes , first man takes sail
adam east sun com \( richard sun bos systems product assurance \) subject goalie mask poll reply adam east sun com organization sun microsystems inc bdc lines 23 nntp posting host adam east sun com article hydra gatech edu , gtd597a prism gatech edu \( hrivnak \) writes update goalie mask poll first , since many people gave 3 best , decided give 3 pts favorite , 2 pts 2nd , 1 3rd e mailed response one , gave 3 pts please feel free send 2 favorites , sent one also , votes still welcome ! mask like , received votes players nhl please mention team play , though date results far vote goes andy moog 1st , belfour 2nd , vanbiesbrouck 3rd bruin 's hot right time ! ! ! ! ! rich east sun com
richard amc com \( richard wernick \) subject ulf organization applied microsystems , redmond , wa lines 20 ashamed call ulf samuelson fan anybody plays way , belong nhl cheap shot artists history game , lot players bobby clarke , kenny , pie mckenzie , chris chelios etc nobody right dirty coward ulf violence hockey got players like \( women \) samuelson n't belong players like ulf , 's main purpose injure better players league allowed continue , league wo n't stop , players christian pro 1000 aluminum stick directed ugly head trick nicely bruins get chance meet pittsburgh near future , bet neely day sight watching ulf turtle like coward , worth almost much cup wimp player almost ruined career one best right wingers game remove ulf samuelson lineup , penguins would even notice 's gone 's game hockey rich
gov ca \( chris williams \) subject stop maynard bashing ! ! ! ! \( roger maynard \) keywords fair , post organization government ontario distribution world lines 35 1993apr16 julian uwo ca lee139 gaul csd uwo ca \( steve lee \) writes article 1993apr16 sol uvic ca gballent hudson uvic ca writes anyone recieve annoying email roger maynard whenever post article telling leave alon stop posting group \? \? emails filled insults usual roger 's posts little hockey info recieved two last 2 days wondering special roger trys bully everyone disagrees gregmeister ca n't serious ! many colleagues received bad e mails roger , fact , roger happens answered hockey questions curiosities , start flaming roger , better consider nasty attitude towards roger like ! steve lee university western ontario london , canada lee139 obelix gaul csd uwo ca speaking roger , comments last nights game admit make nothing game sound like game 7 stanley cup finals roger pushes leafs much even bothers , long time supporter good overall idea game wow gave r compliment , guess better stop rye water give another
daniell cory berkeley edu \( daniel lyddy \) subject bruins vs canadiens nntp posting host cory berkeley edu organization university california , berkeley lines 73 article 1993apr16 rose com jack petrilli rose com \( jack petrilli \) writes n't know mean parity boston never , , never good organization montreal canadiens never \? probably \? debatable valid test think besides final standings divisional playoff winner \? propose , worthless vote like college football \? joke ! boston fans make laugh 're going crazy based recent boston domination montreal playoffs mean many cups boston compared montreal 's 23 \? think going win next cup 2 teams \? montreal boston \? know sinden 's going find way screwing even good boston team 'll fire suter trade away vital star \( admittedly , last trades good ones long luck runs starts making esposito ratelle type trades \? \) remember right , brad park also involved trade n't bad hockey player let 's look sinden 's trades years \? \? \? rick \( rangers \) n't know sinden gave middle ton , 'll call one barry pederson cam neely \( canucks \) questions \? greg hawgood vladimir ruzicka \( oilers \) see one rosie roy last year 's playoffs \? courtnall ranford andy moog \( oilers \) wash moog good goaltender , ranford burned boston finals first year , courtnall always seems get points anyone vancouver care comment courtnall defensive liability \? ken dave poulin \( flyers \) questions \? janney quintal adam oates \( blues \) janney enormous talent guy , bruins play adam 's division enough said \? , even count esposito ratelle park n't remember else \( joe \? \) trade double minus , harry horse comes top submit bruins always good harry , spite btw , really think habs bounce back next season 'll bet finish fourth fifth conference , behind following pittsburgh , quebec , boston , washington , islanders someone correct five teams montreal 's conference summary , things look bleak habs , least near future suspect next team la belle province win cup team lindros n't want play admit 've suffering lately boston gets hot montreal playoffs type years sure knowledge montreal keep plugging away hit right formula yet another cup whereas boston fan , 'd kind despair long harry sinden running show , bruins always good never good enough jack dan lyddy daniell cory berkeley edu university california berkeley two favorite hockey teams 1 \) boston bruins 2 \) whoever 's playing pittsburgh
huot cray com \( tom huot \) subject plus minus stat lines 28 nntp posting host pittpa cray com organization cray research inc x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 brad gibson \( gibson nukta geop ubc ca \) wrote much text deleted plus minus misleading hockey stat available necessarily misleading , right , definitely needs taken proper perspective shining example look penguins individual , find makes common sense , since n't lose many games nhl publishes useful quantifiable statistic including ice time per game measure quality \( e , player put key situations like protecting lead late game matched team 's top one two lines short handed , etc \) , would much rather see disappear altogether instead dubious merits trumpeted little understanding implications unfortunately , need keep ridiculous number stats really come statistic really shows player 's value let 's enjoy game \( like i'm , excuse ! \) tom huot huot cray com
huot cray com \( tom huot \) subject plus minus stat lines 16 nntp posting host pittpa cray com organization cray research inc x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 gerald olchowy \( golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \) wrote meaningless compare one player 's plus minus statistic another players' context role playing time players involved compare jagr 's francis 's plus minus ridiculous absurd gerald thank putting perspective ! tom huot huot cray com
boora kits sfu ca \( godfather \) subject rangers embarrassment organization simon fraser university , burnaby , b c , canada lines 14 ca n't believe ny rangers would force players go play ahl playoffs instead letting represent countries world championships zubov waiting nhl make decision , kovalev given gone minors rangers disgrace ps reported neil smith much hiring mike keenan long smith ny \? godfather `
seth cbnewsh cb att com \( peter r clark jr \) subject flyers notes 4 16 organization keywords flyers sabres summary , misc stuff lines 283 flyers blew 3 0 lead buffalo sabres second period , kevin dineen 's 7th career hat trick powered 7th consecutive win , 7 4 sabres lost 7 row alexander mogilny led comeback scoring goals season tied game 3 2nd period 4 3rd tommy soderstrom stopped 41 45 shots goal improve record 20 17 6 tested mogilny lafontaine night roster move andre faust recalled hershey , shawn cronin healthy scratch lines eklund lindros recchi beranek brind'amour dineen lomakin butsayev conroy faust acton brown galley bowen yushkevich hawgood carkner mcgill tommy soderstrom game summary say , anybody buffalo reading , people get woman sang \? turn volume ! flyers defense started game showing everybody flyers shutting teams lately holding sabres 8 shots first period showed everybody playing golf sunday gave 37 shots last two periods maybe tommy told getting bored back mark recchi opened scoring fast missed buffalo faceoff dumped , tommy wrapped puck around boards eric 1 2 way left eric dropped galley , sent ahead recchi zone mark skated center circle , passed puck legs richard smehlik , skated around fuhr smehlik pulling way zone stick , recchi drifted right , drifted back left , slid puck back right past fuhr 1 0 flyers lead 0 18 beautiful eric garry turn assists \) flyers kept pressure fuhr , strong kept flyers damage game became defensive struggle sabres got first chance power play terry carkner took boarding minor 10 26 crunching dale hawerchuk boards flyers zone lafontaine got scoring chance , terribly good one , flyers sabres power play mogilny got post 25th consecutive penalty kill flyers keith carney took holding penalty 13 31 taking mark recchi give flyers power play best penalty killing team league n't allow flyers shot goal , although flyers create good scoring chance lindros partially fanned shot towards end period play started going end end , everybody kept missing net greg hawgood took interference penalty 18 19 give sabres another power play , could n't get anything going fans expressed displeasure , particularly puck shots 8 6 buffalo flyers led 6 2 one point mike emrick interviewed flyers president jay snider periods jay disappointed make playoffs , discouraged considered rebuilding year trade seemed happy way season went asked trade said russ 's trade , issue ed snider far money yes , agonizing , 'd asked coaching situation would handled next year said 's call , russ evaluate things end season feels 're 3 years away shot cup expects get playoffs next year , shot division title following year , shot finals year based current level play anticipated improvements summer 's happy alignment \( called outstanding \) happy current expansion , feels talent pool big enough europeans , feels must make sure existing franchises stable seemed like idea playing olympics \( \) said definite split among owners certainly would happen four years consensus sabres gave flyers second power play game brad may took tripping penalty 0 51 second flyers little trouble getting started , eventually hawgood took pass moving neutral zone handed puck eklund outside sabres blue line along right boards eklund carried zone nad passed across dineen tried one timer blue line top left circle half fanned , sent puck slot fuhr n't know , though , hawgood race flipped essentially open net 2 15 mogilny breakaway slipped two flyers blue line went soderstrom went , soderstrom flyers took bad discipline type penalties really hurt viacheslav butsayev took double minor roughing high sticking barnaby got skin drew one minor , according gary took dive get \( video \) 4 22 sabres n't get started ryan mcgill poked puck sabre carried flyers zone , bunch people poked dineen emerged headed way started 1 1 , brind'amour ahead make 2 1 back defenseman dineen let rip top right circle make 3 0 flyers 5 40 fuhr , john muckler sent dominik hasek take sabres still lots power play time took time get flyers zone , finally flyers began ring building finally got soderstrom ugly goal smehlik took shot top zone missed kicked hawerchuk slot hawerchuk tried skated towards goal line right galley dove block mistake 1 , let soderstrom handle worried \) rebound b \) barnaby camped behind goal line right next net well , rebound dropped right next soderstrom , mistake 2 , galley laid watched barnaby get three hacks puck finally pushed goalie n't even swing stick try knock puck away goal , 7 48 , two streaks end flyers 150 28 shutout hockey , 27 straight penalty kills lindros put right back power play 8 36 high sticking minor , think barnaby time sabres able get set quickly , could n't get much quality goal sabres continued keep puck flyers end power play ended things settled , bad penalty mcgill allowed barnaby get skin slashed stick faceoff gloves dropped , mcgill started pounding crap fight , gave barnaby head butt helmet , meant match penalty 2 slashing , 5 fighting 5 major , 7 minutes power play time sabres 14 15 , barnaby got 5 flyers keeping bay , long could couple good sabre chances , audette handed ledyard point , ledyard sent drive knocked soderstrom lafontaine bouncing puck left side net , knocked randy wood right soderstrom moved play lafontaine , since yushkevich carkner waving puck instead picking men , wood slid empty net 17 34 close flyers lead 3 2 lafontaine actually trying put net , half fanned got break flyers got shorthanded pressure sabres zone , hasek strong finally keith carney passing ahead hawerchuk neutral zone , hawerchuk sent good backhand pass mogilny flyers blue line another mini breakaway mogilny , elected shoot left circle , threaded needle get inside far post 18 56 season ironically , youth hockey tip 1st second period tommy soderstrom talking cutting angles 2nd , shots 19 7 sabres 3rd period , pelle eklund blew golden opportunity get flyers lead back 2 1 , acton puck , dropped eklund slot , eklund held puck slid left circle almost angle shoot finally shoot , hit far post still power play time incredible almost goal randy wood skated around recchi hawgood untouched soderstrom soderstrom goes , wood puck soderstrom , black object hits back net red light comes , horn sounds , crowd cheers video replay booth , strange reason , meantime emrick try figure could reviewing well , turns taped stick blade went net , puck emrick mentions one criteria scoring goal puck must go net dave hannan took recchi got holding minor 2 35 flyers could get anything going finally got set 1 2 way , kept perimeter time ran , beranek stripped puck sabre offensive zone along right boards passed across eklund top left circle eklund saw dineen heading net inside right circle passed dineen pass , twice directed hasek , eklund swooped chipped bouncing puck goalie 11th 4 42 4 3 flyers sabres came right back lafontaine picked puck offensive left corner slid bob behind flyers net started skate , dropped puck back nobody behind net mogilny flew , skated around , stuffed soderstrom 's 5 hole 5 24 tie game 4 hawerchuk took retaliatory roughing penalty 5 55 flyers set sabres zone , stayed faceoff high sabres zone middle brind'amour puck , dineen snuck line perfect shot low hasek 's glove side 6 44 play started go back forth hawgood took roughing penalty 8 19 flyers dumped puck sabres zone brind'amour ledyard went , rod got puck backed away right boards , skated right faceoff dot , passed legs dineen crashing slot dineen waited patiently lifted hasek 6 4 flyers lead 8 39 3rd hat trick season dineen , 7th career , 2nd shorthanded goal game 35th season carney took tripping penalty 9 02 kill rest sabres power play much action 4 4 , sabres got chances flyers resulting power play play went end end quite goalies make big saves sabres n't able pull hasek time running flyers would n't allow consistant possession sabres finally time running ken sutton misplayed puck left corner brind'amour stripped away pulled away found dineen side left circle , dineen found acton right hasek slid puck two sabres defenders , acton chipped back far side hasek 8th season 19 48 35th birthday scoring , shots 18 13 buffalo , ice plastic drinking mugs handed game another strong game tommy soderstrom n't tested much last couple starts kevin dineen career high 6 point night \( unless better night earlier season , n't think \) flyers longest winning streak 3 years , 30 goals 11 three shutouts eric lindros 8th league 33 even strength goals despite missing 23 games injury 4 points 4th , clinched 5th place since rangers lose tie breaker couple misc notes forget mike keenan rumors , press conference tommorrow announce head coach new york rangers next year last notes mentioned garry galley barry award , failed mention award best defenseman times trenton reported specialist oklahoma looked tommy soderstrom 's medical record determined tests necessary near future paper blurb bill dineen asked whether expected back next year response wants come back , feels good job year , would cheerfully accept role scouting n't want back flyers team record watch eric lindros 41 goals , 33 assists , 74 points \( rookie records \) club record goals club record points eric lindros 40 1992 93 dave poulin 76 1983 84 brian propp 34 1979 80 brian propp 75 1979 80 ron flockhart 33 1981 82 eric lindros 74 1992 93 dave poulin 31 1983 84 ron flockhart 72 1981 82 bill barber 30 1972 73 pelle eklund 66 1985 86 mark recchi 52 goals , 69 assists , 121 points club record goals club record points reggie leach 61 1975 76 mark recchi 121 1992 93 tim kerr 58 1985 86 , 86 87 bobby clarke 119 1975 76 tim kerr 54 1983 84 , 84 85 bobby clarke 116 1974 75 mark recchi 52 1992 93 bill barber 112 1975 76 rick macliesh 50 1972 73 bobby clarke 104 1972 73 bill barber 50 1975 76 rick macliesh 100 1972 73 reggie leach 50 1979 80 80 games flyers career years player points best prior season mark recchi 121 113 \( 90 91 penguins \) rod brind'amour 84 77 \( 91 92 flyers \) garry galley 62 38 \( 84 85 kings \) brent fedyk 59 35 \( 90 91 red wings \) 's pete clark jr rsh flyers contact mailing list owner
huot cray com \( tom huot \) subject ulf lines 29 nntp posting host pittpa cray com organization cray research inc x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 richard wernick \( richard amc com \) wrote ashamed call ulf samuelson fan anybody plays way , belong nhl cheap shot artists history game , lot players bobby clarke , kenny , pie mckenzie , chris chelios etc nobody right dirty coward ulf violence hockey got players like \( women \) samuelson n't belong players like ulf , 's main purpose injure better players league allowed continue , league wo n't stop , players christian pro 1000 aluminum stick directed ugly head trick nicely bruins get chance meet pittsburgh near future , bet neely day sight watching ulf turtle like coward , worth almost much cup wimp player almost ruined career one best right wingers game remove ulf samuelson lineup , penguins would even notice 's gone 's game hockey rich thank extremely lucid well thought observation get back medication , please let us know feeling thank , tom huot huot cray com
huot cray com \( tom huot \) subject goodbye , good riddance , get lost 'stars lines 20 nntp posting host pittpa cray com organization cray research inc x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 stephen lawrence \( s4lawren sms business uwo ca \) wrote goodbye minnesota , never earned right nhl franchise first place ! hope enjoy twin city wide mania high school hockey \( hey , way old pee wee team reunion regina , care come film event \? \) yee haa golden gophers whatta weird town ! ! ! ! ! s4lawren sms business uwo ca \( stephen lawrence \) western business school london , ontario second posting kind idiot business school canada problem anyway \? teach business school canada \? tom huot huot cray com
acad drake edu subject goalie mask update lines 41 nntp posting host acad drake edu organization drake university , des moines , iowa , usa article hydra gatech edu , gtd597a prism gatech edu \( hrivnak \) writes results three days voting remember 3pts 1st , 2 2nd , 1 3rd also , still turn votes ! guy n't regular goalie retired , please include team ! thanks time , keep sending votes ! player team pts votes 1 brian hayward san jose 15 6 andy moog boston 15 6 3 curtis joseph st louis 11 5 4 ed belfour chicago 10 5 5 gerry cheevers boston \( retired \) 5 3 manon rheaume atlanta \( ihl \) 5 2 ron hextall quebec 5 2 8 beaupre washington 4 2 others receiving 1 vote irbe \( sj \) , tim cheveldae \( det \) , clint \( buf sd , ihl \) , grant fuhr \( buf \) , rick wamsley \( tor , ret \) , jon casey \( minn \) , john vanbiesbrouck \( nyr \) , ken dryden \( mon , ret \) , bob essensa \( win \) , mike vernon \( cal \) , glenn healy \( nyi \) , tommy \( \? \? \? \) , ray leblanc \( usa \) c'mon , tommy soderstrom fine rookie \( think 's rookie \) season flyers i'm sure knew already , case john p acad drake edu longtime , realistic ranger fan 's willing admit rangers sucked big time year n't even deserve luxury nice golf course warm breeze god , talk ! mike keenan 're waiting ! go skins ! next question emotional music quite go braves ! effect \? mike patton , faith go hornets ! go capitals ! mike friedman \( hrivnak fan ! \) internet gtd597a prism gatech edu
nlu xenon stanford edu \( nelson lu \) subject sharks review part 3 defensemen \( 21 45 \) organization computer science department , stanford university lines 85 21 peter ahola season 2nd acquired '92 93 , trade pittsburgh future considerations grade \( b \) way early tell ahola , acquired probably penguins figured would lose expansion draft ahola played 50 games season \( think 's actually less san jose mercury news may err \) , 20 sharks games played , appeared quite solid defensively , although n't spectacular , offense n't anything write home \( 8 points \) 's even possible trade may future considerations turn peter ahola 24 doug wilson season 16th acquired '91 92 , trade chicago rw kerry 2nd round pick '92 entry draft grade \( b \) often accused overly wilson may high expectations , legs , knees , et al , giving nevertheless , playing , exhibited strong shooting abilities , even lost step defense , , unfortunately , demonstrated year well , times slow catch opponent forwards , offensive output good enough 2nd place team \( 20 points 42 games \) next year , may wilson 's last , stay healthy , still contributor 29 dean kolstad season 2nd acquired '91 92 , minnesota dispersal draft grade \( c \) 's probably somewhat unfair judge kolstad handful games \( forgetting exact number , 15 \) , age 25 's quickly running time wants make nhl games , impress anyone generating 7 shots first period first game played , scored 2 points tenure sharks , even less impressive defensively , appeared awkward movement prone giveaways needs make leap level performance chance making team 38 pat macleod season 2nd acquired '91 92 , minnesota dispersal draft grade \( \? \) macleod roster lot longer kolstad , appears memory played less kolstad , sharks reluctant use , even reluctant send minors , figuring would n't clear waivers fact , played past 4 5 weeks kansas city , still technically rehabilitation assignment , assignment include playing turner cup playoffs since played little , ca n't even give tentative grade , demonstrated last year excellent offensive skills terrible defensive skills 41 tom pederson season 1st acquired '91 92 , minnesota dispersal draft grade \( b \) called middle season defensive corps decimated injuries , pederson impressed many sharks fan net , including truly demonstrated good offensive skills , scoring 20 points 43 games however , size \( 5' 9 , 165 lbs \) concern , soon began shine offensive teams begin push around physically , sides ice , although appeared fearless approach successful , probably needs bulk fighting chance surviving bigger players league 45 claudio season 1st acquired '91 92 , minnesota dispersal draft grade \( \) played 5 games league year , thoroughly , end last season , may small sample , case kolstad , , age 25 , quickly running time contributor either offense defense games played sharks notable thing go 's entry league stats probably fact traded capitals goaltender beaupre go calgary flames ! al macinnis norris ! gary roberts hart smythe ! go edmonton oilers ! go playoffs next year ! stay edmonton ! nelson lu \( claudius leland stanford edu \) rec sport hockey contact san jose sharks
jupiter sun csd unb ca \( rocket \) subject dear montana pinetree org hockey pool distribution rec sport hockey organization university new brunswick lines 15 hi , ca n't seem get mail tell entire adress , even dotted decimal address \? \( ie 131 202 3 10 \) thanks , rocket calvin cs unb ca maurice richard
gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) subject stan fischler , 4 16 \( keenan stuff ! \) summary prior devils islanders nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) organization phds hall lines 30 keenan hiring precipitated loss anticipated 5m playoff revenue fears losing season ticket holders \( ! \) , plus paramount chief stan jaffe 's chip flyers lindros last autumn add neilsen might return assistant coach gerald , 'd say earlier today \? \? , roger jaffe hiring hiring jaffe went head msg , inc \( par subsidiary \) head bob head protests pres gm neil smith msg making announcement saturday get back islanders making playoffs \( e , steal press \) flyers owner ed snyder beside keenan make 900 , 000 yr gary bettman appointed independent consul look gil stein 's admission hall fame new crease colours , rather blue \? oilers charge eat press room next year gld je souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go ! ! ! gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
kkeller mail sas upenn edu \( keith keller \) subject playoff pool rule revision organization university pennsylvania , school arts sciences lines 10 nntp posting host mail sas upenn edu well , change scoring playoff pool unfortunately n't time right , certainly post new scoring rules tomorrow matter \? , 'll enter anyway ! ! ! good ! keith keller let's go rangers ! ! ! ! ! let's go quakers ! ! ! ! ! kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs ! ! ! ! want opinion , 'll give
kkeller mail sas upenn edu \( keith keller \) subject keenan signs rangers ! ! organization university pennsylvania , school arts sciences lines 19 nntp posting host mail sas upenn edu article 1993apr16 ns1 cc lehigh edu ns1 cc lehigh edu \( patrick \) writes heard news mike keenan formerly blackhawks , flyers , general prison signed coach rangers rangers , president 's cup last year slipped bit end season destined finish last behind lowly flyers fans going disappointed decision , interested oh well least got somebody flyers wanted \) really true \? keeping news , 's deal neil smith \? gone , \? keith keller let's go rangers ! ! ! ! ! let's go quakers ! ! ! ! ! kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs ! ! ! ! want opinion , 'll give
kkeller mail sas upenn edu \( keith keller \) subject devils islanders tiebreaker \? \? \? \? organization university pennsylvania , school arts sciences lines 21 nntp posting host mail sas upenn edu article murdoch acc virginia edu ee virginia edu \( craig allen \) writes according hockey gurus espn , islanders win tonite two teams record , devils playing penguins islanders season series devils think rules deciding tie breaker include 1 season series 2 goals 3 goals order \( correct i'm wrong \) anyone anything add \? think go divisional records goals , could wrong , keith keller let's go rangers ! ! ! ! ! let's go quakers ! ! ! ! ! kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs ! ! ! ! want opinion , 'll give
formeza panix com \( owl \) subject hockey cards sale keywords hockey cards organization panix public access unix , nyc lines 87 panix com formeza panix com \( owl \) writes case anyone missed , i'm reposting i'm also selling stuff would like sell hockey cards sets 1990 91 hockey low 's sets 45 first hockey set made important rookie cards mogilny , roenick , belfour , recchi , stevens , jagr , nolan , nedved , ricci , sundin , modano , richter others ! price 42 , i'm charging 45 cover shipping packaging 've sold one , still 2 left sale also realize 45 alot money , especially n't normally collect cards enough people interested , 'll break set team sets i'm sure much would nice sell 3 , people get whalers devils \( note , i'm teams n't alot good rookie cards set \) would subsidizing people want chicago pittsburgh 'll make pricing 2 3 dollars 1991 92 score pinnacle \( \) sets 45 nice set , premium quality cards second year cards players , plus bure , potvin , falloon , lindros \( 15 value \) second year cards , following rookie cards lidstrom kamensky , zelepukin , roussel , konstantinov price 50 , alot 1991 92 set 60 100 card set 92 world junior tournament meant sale czechoslovakia , n't sell well , back us cards bilingual lachance , kovalev , straka rookies interested , please e mail thanks ok someone asked one , 's canada , get money us funds , , first person writes alternate also would like sell 2 pavel bure rookie cards \( note ud low 's set mentioned \) 16 15 book , 1 goes postage , packaging insurance something want n't see , e mail , may may able get thanks , owl ted formeza formeza sun panix com
willis oracle scg hac com \( stan willis \) subject kings regular season schedule results reply willis empire dnet hac com \( stan willis \) organization none lines 189 1992 93 los angeles kings schedule results tv 2 preseason games , 82 84 regular season playoffs tv \( pt \) prime ticket , \( 5 \) channel 5 , \( 7 \) abc channel 7 playoffs radio regular preseason games broadcast kings radio network southern california xtra \( flagship \) simi valley , alaska el centro fairbanks , alaska lancaster palm desert paso robles reno , nevada sacramento san luis obispo santa las vegas , nevada preseason september october 18 la 3 vs van 3 vancouver 12 , 357 \( 0 0 1 , 1 pt \) 20 la 5 vs pit 2 portland 6 , 124 \( 1 0 1 , 3 pts \) \( pt \) 23 la 3 vs pit 3 tacoma \? \( 1 0 2 , 4 pts \) 24 la 2 vs nyr 7 san diego 8 , 099 \( 1 1 2 , 4 pts \) \( pt \) 26 la 2 vs nyr 6 phoenix 8 , 977 \( 1 2 2 , 4 pts \) 27 la 4 vs sj 2 sacramento 7 , 950 \( 2 2 2 , 6 pts \) 30 la 2 vs van 5 forum 10 , 250 \( 2 3 2 , 6 pts \) 03 la 8 vs sj 8 forum 12 , 005 \( 3 3 2 , 8 pts \) total 29 36 regular season october 06 la 5 calgary 4 \( ot \) 19 , 461 \( 1 0 0 , 2 pts \) \( pt \) 08 la 3 vs detroit 5 16 , 005 \( 1 1 0 , 2 pts \) \( pt \) 10 la 6 vs winnipeg 3 14 , 509 \( 2 1 0 , 4 pts \) \( pt \) 13 la 2 vs san jose 1 14 , 320 \( 3 1 0 , 6 pts \) \( pt \) 15 la 4 vs calgary 0 15 , 133 \( 4 1 0 , 8 pts \) \( pt \) 17 la 8 vs boston 6 16 , 005 \( 5 1 0 , 10 pts \) \( pt \) 20 la 2 calgary 6 19 , 169 \( 5 2 0 , 10 pts \) \( 5 \) 23 la 2 winnipeg 4 12 , 924 \( 5 3 0 , 10 pts \) \( pt \) 24 la 5 minnesota 5 15 , 174 \( 5 3 1 , 11 pts \) \( 5 \) 27 la 4 ny islanders 3 10 , 259 \( 6 3 1 , 13 pts \) \( pt \) 29 la 3 boston 8 14 , 448 \( 6 4 1 , 13 pts \) \( pt \) 31 la 7 hartford 1 9 , 244 \( 7 4 1 , 15 pts \) \( 5 \) oct 51 46 7 4 1 , 15 pts november 05 la 5 vs new jersey 2 14 , 592 \( 8 4 1 , 17 pts \) \( pt \) 07 la 5 vs buffalo 2 16 , 005 \( 9 4 1 , 19 pts \) \( pt \) 08 la 11 san jose 4 11 , 089 \( 10 4 1 , 21 pts \) \( tv \) 10 la 4 winnipeg 4 12 , 831 \( 10 4 2 , 22 pts \) \( pt \) 12 la 7 vs vancouver 4 15 , 486 \( 11 4 2 , 24 pts \) \( pt \) 14 la 6 vs edmonton 2 16 , 005 \( 12 4 2 , 26 pts \) \( pt \) 16 la 3 vancouver 6 15 , 896 \( 12 5 2 , 26 pts \) \( pt \) 17 la 0 san jose 6 11 , 089 \( 12 6 2 , 26 pts \) \( pt \) 19 la 4 vs chicago 1 16 , 005 \( 13 6 2 , 28 pts \) \( pt \) 21 la 6 vs toronto 4 16 , 005 \( 14 6 2 , 30 pts \) \( pt \) 25 la 3 edmonton 1 13 , 636 \( 15 6 2 , 32 pts \) \( tv \) 27 la 5 detroit 3 19 , 875 \( 16 6 2 , 34 pts \) \( pt \) 28 la 2 toronto 3 15 , 720 \( 16 7 2 , 34 pts \) \( pt \) nov 61 42 9 3 1 , 19 pts year 112 88 december 01 la 6 chicago 3 16 , 292 \( 17 7 2 , 36 pts \) milwaukee \( pt \) 03 la 5 vs pittsburgh 3 16 , 005 \( 18 7 2 , 38 pts \) \( pt \) 05 la 7 vs hartford 3 16 , 005 \( 19 7 2 , 40 pts \) \( pt \) 08 la 5 vs montreal 5 12 , 276 \( 19 7 3 , 41 pts \) phoenix \( pt \) 10 la 4 vs quebec 5 15 , 221 \( 19 8 3 , 41 pts \) \( pt \) 12 la 6 vs st louis 3 16 , 005 \( 20 8 3 , 43 pts \) \( pt \) 15 la 2 vs tampa bay 3 15 , 753 \( 20 9 3 , 43 pts \) \( pt \) 18 la 5 edmonton 5 15 , 257 \( 20 9 4 , 44 pts \) \( 5 \) 19 la 3 calgary 5 20 , 214 \( 20 10 4 , 44 pts \) \( pt \) 22 la 2 vs vancouver 6 16 , 005 \( 20 11 4 , 44 pts \) \( pt \) 26 la 2 san jose 7 11 , 089 \( 20 12 4 , 44 pts \) \( 5 \) 29 la 2 vs philadelphia 10 16 , 005 \( 20 13 4 , 44 pts \) \( pt \) 31 la 0 vancouver 4 16 , 150 \( 20 14 4 , 44 pts \) \( pt \) dec 49 62 4 7 2 , 10 pts year 161 150 january 02 la 5 vs montreal 5 16 , 005 \( 20 14 5 , 45 pts \) \( pt \) 06 la 3 vs tampa bay 6 16 , 005 \( 20 15 5 , 45 pts \) \( pt \) 08 la 3 winnipeg 6 14 , \( 20 16 5 , 45 pts \) \( 5 \) 10 la 5 chicago 4 17 , 705 \( 21 16 5 , 47 pts \) \( 5 \) 12 la 3 ottawa 2 10 , 500 \( 22 16 5 , 49 pts \) \( pt \) 14 la 1 new jersey 7 13 , 586 \( 22 17 5 , 49 pts \) \( pt \) 16 la 2 vs winnipeg 5 16 , 005 \( 22 18 5 , 49 pts \) \( pt \) 19 la 5 edmonton 4 16 , 686 \( 23 18 5 , 51 pts \) \( pt \) 21 la 4 vs vancouver 5 16 , 005 \( 23 19 5 , 51 pts \) \( pt \) 23 la 3 vs ny rangers 8 16 , 005 \( 23 20 5 , 51 pts \) \( pt \) 26 la 7 vs san jose 1 16 , 005 \( 24 20 5 , 53 pts \) \( pt \) 28 la 1 vs calgary 2 16 , 005 \( 24 21 5 , 53 pts \) \( pt \) 30 la 2 vs chicago 2 16 , 005 \( 24 21 6 , 54 pts \) \( pt \) jan 44 57 4 7 2 , 10 pts year 205 207 february 02 la 2 quebec 3 14 , 843 \( 24 22 6 , 54 pts \) \( pt \) 03 la 2 montreal 7 17 , 164 \( 24 23 6 , 54 pts \) \( pt \) 09 la 3 vs edmonton 6 16 , 005 \( 24 24 6 , 54 pts \) \( pt \) 11 la 6 vs detroit 6 16 , 005 \( 24 24 7 , 55 pts \) \( pt \) 13 la 3 vs washington 10 16 , 005 \( 24 25 7 , 55 pts \) \( pt \) 15 la 3 vs vancouver 0 16 , 005 \( 25 25 7 , 57 pts \) \( pt \) 17 la 10 minnesota 5 14 , 911 \( 26 25 7 , 59 pts \) \( pt \) 18 la 2 chicago 7 17 , 597 \( 26 26 7 , 59 pts \) \( pt \) 20 la 3 washington 7 17 , 812 \( 26 27 7 , 59 pts \) \( pt \) 22 la 5 tampa bay 2 10 , 425 \( 27 27 7 , 61 pts \) \( pt \) 25 la 0 st louis 3 13 , 473 \( 27 28 7 , 61 pts \) \( pt \) 27 la 2 vs toronto 5 16 , 005 \( 27 29 7 , 61 pts \) \( pt \) feb 41 61 3 8 1 , 7 pts year 246 268 march 02 la 6 vs calgary 2 16 , 005 \( 28 29 7 , 63 pts \) \( pt \) 04 la 8 vs ottawa 6 16 , 005 \( 29 29 7 , 65 pts \) \( pt \) 06 la 6 vs edmonton 1 16 , 005 \( 30 29 7 , 67 pts \) \( pt \) 09 la 3 ny rangers 4 18 , 200 \( 30 30 7 , 67 pts \) \( pt \) 11 la 3 pittsburgh 4 16 , 164 \( 30 31 7 , 67 pts \) \( pt \) 13 philadelphia postponed 1 period \( 1 1 \) due weather 4 1 14 buffalo postponed due weather 3 15 15 la 4 buffalo 2 13 , 799 \( 31 31 7 , 69 pts \) \( pt \) 16 la 8 vs winnipeg 4 16 , 005 \( 32 31 7 , 71 pts \) \( pt \) 18 la 7 vs ny islanders 4 16 , 005 \( 33 31 7 , 73 pts \) \( pt \) 20 la 3 vs st louis 2 16 , 005 \( 34 31 7 , 75 pts \) \( pt \) 24 la 2 vancouver 6 16 , 150 \( 34 32 7 , 75 pts \) \( 5 \) 26 la 4 edmonton 1 17 , 503 \( 35 32 7 , 77 pts \) \( 5 \) 28 la 3 winnipeg 3 15 , 566 \( 35 32 8 , 78 pts \) \( pt \) 29 la 9 detroit 3 19 , 875 \( 36 32 8 , 80 pts \) \( 5 \) 31 la 5 toronto 5 15 , 720 \( 36 32 9 , 81 pts \) \( pt \) mar 71 47 9 3 2 , 20 pts year 317 315 april 01 la 3 philadelphia 1 17 , 380 \( 37 32 9 , 83 pts \) \( pt \) 03 la 0 vs minnesota 3 16 , 005 \( 37 33 9 , 83 pts \) \( pt \) 06 la 3 vs calgary 3 16 , 005 \( 37 33 10 , 84 pts \) \( pt \) 08 la 2 vs san jose 1 16 , 005 \( 38 33 10 , 86 pts \) \( pt \) 10 la 3 san jose 2 \( ot \) 11 , 089 \( 39 33 10 , 88 pts \) \( pt \) 13 la 4 vancouver 7 16 , 150 \( 39 34 10 , 88 pts \) \( pt \) 15 la 6 vs vancouver 8 16 , 005 \( 39 35 10 , 88 pts \) \( pt \) apr 21 25 3 3 1 , 7 pts year 338 340 39 35 10 , 88 pts 3rd smythe , 11th overall playoffs april 18 calgary 12 00 noon \( 7 \) 21 calgary 6 30 pm \( pt \) 23 vs calgary 7 30 pm \( pt \) 25 vs calgary 12 00 noon \( 7 \) 27 calgary 6 30 pm \( pt \) 29 vs calgary 7 30 pm \( pt \) may 01 calgary 6 30 pm \( pt \) times listed pacific time necessary may shown abc , televised prime ticket , time 7 30 pm stan willis \( willis empire dnet hac com \) net contact l kings talk l kings mailing list kings cs stanford edu subscribe unsubscribe kings request cs stanford edu
nlu xenon stanford edu \( nelson lu \) subject possible canadian wc team \? organization computer science department , stanford university lines 39 point team canadian nhlers playoff bound goalies bill ranford , edmonton sean burke , hartford peter sidorkiewicz , ottawa defensemen zalapski , hartford norm maciver , ottawa garry galley , philadelphia greg hawgood , philadelphia dave manson , edmonton mark tinordi , minnesota centers mark messier , n rangers geoff sanderson , hartford brian bradley , tampa bay rod brind'amour , philadelphia left wings adam graves , n rangers chris , tampa bay patrick poulin , hartford shayne corson , edmonton right wings pat verbeek , hartford russ courtnall , minnesota mike gartner , n rangers kevin dineen , philadelphia go calgary flames ! al macinnis norris ! gary roberts hart smythe ! go edmonton oilers ! go playoffs next year ! stay edmonton ! nelson lu \( claudius leland stanford edu \) rec sport hockey contact san jose sharks
mikkot romulus math jyu fi \( mikko tarkiainen \) subject pens info needed nntp posting host romulus math jyu fi organization university jyvaskyla , finland lines 33 article 1993apr16 csd newshost stanford edu nlu xenon stanford edu \( nelson lu \) writes article 1993apr16 jyu fi mikkot romulus math jyu fi \( mikko tarkiainen \) writes coaching news vasili tichonov \( ex assat \) san jose sharks wow 's probably reason current assistant coach drew hinted wo n't back thanks news , mikko \( finnish netters \) comment tichonov \? first time heard piece news post game radio interview jyvaskyla bronze medal game sm tichonov 's team assat \( town \) lost vasili , son victor tichonov \( famous soviet coach \) , said long time sharks persuading take assistant coach post wants head coach ever goes definitely wo n't coaching assat anymore \( three \? seasons \) n't know vasili good coach believe assat good team , produced many players national team assat n't skilled team \( imho \) fighting spirit , butchered jokerit playoffs gave hard time tps , champs assat n't consistent , right mood could beat team sm 100 sure deal sharks said , wants head coach sharks going negotiate decide wc doubt head coach maybe 'll compromise could somebody post information vasili \? know coaching former soviet league teams , results \? character coach \?
organization penn state university robbie po rap115 psuvm psu edu subject devils islanders tiebreaker \? \? \? \? lines 14 article 77u odin corp sgi com , esd sgi com \( ed nolan \) says islanders beat devils tonight , would finish identical records 's lucky team gets face penguins opening round \? also , somebody list rules breaking ties recall , penguins devils tied third place last year identical records , well poor devils always get screwed yet , put scare pittsburgh always ! pens 7 robbie po pgh penguins ! ! ! wo n't easy , contact '93 '94 '91 stanley cup greater rewards penn state lady lions '92 champions mountains valleys rap115 psuvm psu edu 11 straight wins ! better nothing !
organization penn state university robbie po rap115 psuvm psu edu subject goodbye , good riddance , get lost 'stars lines 22 article sms business uwo ca , s4lawren sms business uwo ca \( stephen lawrence \) says goodbye minnesota , never earned right nhl franchise first place ! hope enjoy twin city wide mania high school hockey \( hey , way old pee wee team reunion regina , care come film event \? \) yee haa golden gophers whatta weird town ! ! ! ! ! minnesota definitely deserves nhl franchise ! ! ! 'll see minnesota whalers pretty soon , fear minnesota fans norm green , 'cept team color \( sorry , bad pun ! \) difference two years makes ! minnesota finished 29 37 14 1992 made finals finish better record 38 38 10 thi year move dallas every team playoffs winning record ! ! ! finally ! ! ! 's time , nhl ! ! ! robbie po pgh penguins ! ! ! wo n't easy , contact '93 '94 '91 stanley cup greater rewards penn state lady lions '92 champions mountains valleys rap115 psuvm psu edu 11 straight wins ! better nothing !
mmilitzo scott skidmore edu \( matthew militzok \) subject 1992 1993 final nhl player stats organization skidmore college , saratoga springs ny lines 8 interested receiving final player stats 1992 1993 nhl season well playoff box scores , stats scores updates e mail stat server mmilitzo skidmore edu subject message must stats
etxonss ufsa ericsson se \( staffan axelsson \) subject wc scores standings , april 18 organization ericsson telecom , stockholm , sweden lines 71 nntp posting host uipc104 ericsson se 1993 world championships germany group standings \( munich \) group b standings \( dortmund \) gp w l gf ga p gp w l gf ga p sweden 1 1 0 0 1 0 2 germany 1 1 0 0 6 0 2 italy 1 0 1 0 2 2 1 czech republic 1 0 1 0 1 1 1 russia 1 0 1 0 2 2 1 usa 1 0 1 0 1 1 1 canada 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 finland 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 switzerland 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 france 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 austria 1 0 0 1 0 1 0 norway 1 0 0 1 0 6 0 april 18 italy russia 2 2 norway germany 0 6 sweden austria 1 0 usa czech republic 1 1 april 19 canada switzerland 15 30 russia austria finland france 20 00 april 20 sweden canada czech republic germany 15 30 switzerland italy finland usa 20 00 april 21 germany france 15 30 italy sweden czech republic norway 20 00 april 22 switzerland russia usa france 15 30 austria canada norway finland 20 00 april 23 switzerland austria germany finland 20 00 april 24 russia sweden czech republic france 15 30 canada italy usa norway 20 00 april 25 sweden switzerland finland czech republic 15 30 russia canada germany usa 20 00 april 26 austria italy france norway 20 00 playoffs april 27 quarterfinals 2 b 3 15 30 3 b 2 20 00 april 28 quarterfinals 1 b 4 15 30 4 b 1 20 00 april 29 relegation 5 b 6 15 30 6 b 5 20 00 april 30 semifinals 1 b 4 3 b 2 15 30 4 b 1 2 b 3 20 00 may 1 relegation 14 30 bronze medal game 19 00 may 2 final 15 00 \( \( staffan axelsson etxonss ufsa ericsson se \) \) r h contact swedish hockey
marc vanheyningen mvanheyn cs indiana edu subject ripem frequently asked questions content type text x usenet faq version 1 0 title ripem faq originator mvanheyn silver ucs indiana edu supersedes news cs indiana edu nntp posting host silver ucs indiana edu organization computer science , indiana university expires fri , 30 apr 1993 00 00 00 gmt lines 255 archive name ripem faq last update sun , 7 mar 93 21 00 00 0500 posting \( still rather rough \) listing likely questions information ripem , program public key mail encryption \( faq , ripem \) written maintained marc vanheyningen , mvanheyn whale cs indiana edu posted variety newsgroups monthly basis follow discussion specific ripem redirected group alt security ripem month , reformatted posting attempt comply standards hypertext faq formatting allow easy manipulation document world wide web let know think disclaimer nothing faq considered legal advice , anything one person 's opinion want real legal advice , talk real lawyer questions answers 1 \) ripem \? ripem program performs privacy enhanced mail \( pem \) using cryptographic techniques rsa des allows electronic mail properties authentication \( e sent confirmed \) privacy \( e nobody read except intended recipient \) ripem written primarily mark riordan mrr scss3 cl msu edu code public domain , except rsa routines , library called rsaref licensed rsa data security inc 2 \) get ripem \? ripem contains library cryptographic routines rsaref , considered munitions thus export restricted distribution people citizens permanent residents u canada therefore , following request quoted readme file please export cryptographic code distribution outside usa canada personal request , author ripem , condition use ripem note rsaref public domain , license included distribution read using ripem best way get ask friend copy , since reduce load sites carry \( mention humans run \) naturally requires trust friend ripem available via anonymous ftp citizens permanent residents u rsa com cd rsaref read readme file info last looked , site contains source tree , contain compiled binaries nice mac version ripem , well crypt stuff , home site cl msu edu , open non anonymous ftp users u canada citizens permanent residents find obtain access , ftp , cd pub crypt , read file getting access convenience , binaries many architectures available addition full source tree 3 \) ripem run machine \? probably already ported ms dos flavors unix \( sunos , next , linux , aix , ultrix , solaris , etc \) ports macintosh include standard unix style port rather nice mac like port written raymond lau , author stuffit ports expected , help users invited 4 \) ripem work mailer \? probably easy clean effective interface depend sophistication mailer , though users guide , included distribution , discusses ways use ripem many popular mailers , including berkeley , mush , elm , mh code also included allow easy use ripem inside gnu emacs make new interface ripem create improvement one distribution believe convenient use , secure , may useful others , feel free post alt security ripem 5 \) rsa \? rsa crypto system asymmetric , public key means two different , related keys one encrypt one decrypt one cannot \( reasonably \) derived , may publish encryption , public key widely keep decryption , private key anyone use public key encrypt message , hold private key needed decrypt \( note message sent rsa normally des key real message \( see des \? \) note provides privacy authentication , fingerprint message \( see fingerprint , like md5 \? \) encrypted sender 's private key recipient use sender 's public key decrypt confirm message must come sender rsa named three men \( rivest , shamir \) invented find rsa , ftp rsa com look pub faq look sci crypt 6 \) des \? des data encryption standard , widely used symmetric , secret key , crypto system unlike rsa , des uses key encrypt decrypt messages however , des much faster rsa ripem uses des rsa generates random key encrypts mail des using key encrypts key recipient 's public rsa key includes result letter , allowing recipient recover des key des sometimes considered weak somewhat old uses key length considered short modern standards however , reasonably safe opponent smaller large corporation government agency unlikely future strengthen symmetric cipher , possibly using multiple encryption des 7 \) pem , ripem relate \? pem privacy enhanced mail , system allowing easy transfer encrypted electronic mail described rfcs 1421 1424 documents approved obsolete old rfcs 1113 1115 ripem really complete implementation pem , pem specifies certificates authenticating keys , ripem handle time addition planned 8 \) 's distributing authenticating keys \? remote user able send secure mail , must know public key able confirm message received came , must know public key important information accurate bad guy convinces key fact , send messages read ripem allows three methods key management central server , distributed finger servers , flat file three described ripem users guide part distribution none provide perfect security 9 \) ripem public keys look similar \? ripem public keys begin pkcs identifier describing various characteristics key , first bunch characters key may lots people 's keys mean keys similar , class key , generated program , length , etc 10 \) fingerprint , like md5 \? md5 message digest algorithm produced rsa data security inc provides 128 bit fingerprint , cryptographically secure hash , plaintext cryptographically secure possible \( reasonable amount computation \) produce different plaintext produces fingerprint thus , instead signing entire message sender 's private key , md5 message needs signed authentication md5 sometimes used purposes example , often used map input arbitrary length 128 bits data , passphrase interpreter cookie generator md5 described entirety \( including implementation c \) rfc 1321 11 \) pgp \? pgp another cryptographic mail program called pretty good privacy pgp around longer ripem , works somewhat differently pgp compatible ripem way , though pgp also use rsa major differences pgp ripem pgp key management features , particularly users without direct network connection ripem conforms pem rfcs thus greater probability working pem software pgp makes attempt compatible anything pgp \( fact , pgp 1 0 compatible pgp 2 0 \) ripem uses rsaref , library rsa routines rsa data security inc rsaref comes license allows noncommercial use pgp uses implementation rsa licensed thus , pkp , firm holding u patents rsa algorithm , claims infringement patent make , use sell pgp u canada acknowledgement , pgp 's original author , phil zimmermann , says documentation fact , live usa , federal agency , n't actually run pgp computer , public key partners wants forbid running software pgp pgp ripem export restricted , cannot sent outside u canada however , pgp already exists many ftp sites europe places whether use pgp ripem whatever , documentation pgp recommended reading anyone interested issues note facts , regarding patent export restrictions , somewhat controversial many people think n't way , people interpret various documents differently unfortunately , discussions net inevitably seem produce heat light , probably belong misc legal computing \( see disclaimer \) 12 \) rpem \? rpem stands rabin privacy enhanced mail similar ripem , used public key cipher invented rabin \( rsa \) attempt avoid patent rsa written mark riordan , author ripem distribution halted , contrary beliefs many \( including rabin \) , public key partners \( pkp \) claimed patent broad enough cover public key cipher whose strength rested difficulty factoring products large primes , rsa claim universally accepted means , challenged pragmatic reasons rpem really used anymore compatible ripem pgp 13 \) mime \? mime stands multipurpose internet mail extensions , described rfc 1341 find newsgroup comp mail mime pem interact mime yet entirely clear people use solution mime type application x ripem order send ripem messages mime ones hope standards emerge draft internet documents exist matter 14 \) simple way defeat security ripem may wish check companion post ripem attacks discusses obvious attacks ripem 's security procedures minimize risk ripem 's main weak area probably key distribution
mvanheyn cs indiana edu \( marc vanheyningen \) subject ripem frequently asked questions article usenet expires thu , 20 may 1993 00 00 00 gmt organization computer science , indiana university lines 360 content type text x usenet faq version 1 0 title ripem faq originator mvanheyn silver ucs indiana edu nntp posting host silver ucs indiana edu mime version 1 0 archive name ripem faq last update 31 mar 93 22 00 00 0500 posting listing likely questions information ripem , program public key mail encryption \( faq , ripem \) written maintained marc vanheyningen mvanheyn cs indiana edu posted variety newsgroups monthly basis follow discussion specific ripem redirected group alt security ripem what's new running world wide web archive ripem information contain much anything n't available elsewhere , convenient pointers current version faq stuff url cs indiana edu ripem dir month 's version fair amount new pointers information patents stuff like 've also things sensible ordering hope n't edit soon \) disclaimer nothing faq considered legal advice , anything one 's opinion want real legal advice , talk real lawyer , preferably one experience patent law , export regulations , whatever area law question list questions 1 \) ripem \? 2 \) get ripem \? 3 \) ripem run machine \? 4 \) ripem work mailer \? 5 \) rsa \? 6 \) des \? 7 \) fingerprint , like md5 \? 8 \) pem \? 9 \) 's distributing authenticating keys \? 10 \) n't bad idea use patented algorithms standards like pem \? 11 \) rsadsi pkp \? 12 \) ripem public keys look similar \? 13 \) pgp \? 14 \) rpem \? 15 \) mime \? 16 \) tis pem \? 17 \) simple way defeat security ripem questions answers 1 \) ripem \? ripem \( yet complete , useful \) implementation privacy enhanced mail \( pem \) ripem allows electronic mail four security facilities provided pem disclosure protection \( optional \) , originator authenticity , message integrity measures , non origin \( always \) \( see pem \? \) ripem written primarily mark riordan mrr scss3 cl msu edu code public domain , except rsa routines , library called rsaref licensed rsa data security inc current version ripem 1 0 5 current version macintosh port ripem 0 7 2 \) get ripem \? ripem uses library cryptographic routines rsaref , considered munitions thus export restricted distribution persons citizens permanent residents u canada without export license license obtained \( would one likely granted unless rsa key exchange shortened 512 bits symmetric cipher changed something weaker des suggestions situation may change clinton office \) author requests readme file law violated please export cryptographic code distribution outside usa canada personal request , author ripem , condition use ripem note rsaref public domain , license included distribution read using ripem ripem available via anonymous ftp citizens permanent residents u rsa com cd rsaref read readme file info note non rsaref portion ripem product rsa data security , incorporated merely helping distribute ripem , well crypt stuff , home site ripem msu edu , open non anonymous ftp users u canada citizens permanent residents find obtain access , ftp , cd pub crypt , read file getting access convenience , binaries many architectures available addition full source tree 3 \) ripem run machine \? probably already ported ms dos flavors unix \( sunos , next , linux , aix , ultrix , solaris , etc \) ports macintosh include standard unix style port rather nice mac like port written raymond lau , author stuffit ports expected , help users invited 4 \) ripem work mailer \? probably easy clean effective interface depend sophistication mailer , though users guide , included distribution , discusses ways use ripem many popular mailers , including berkeley , mush , elm , mh code also included allow easy use ripem inside gnu emacs make new interface ripem create improvement one distribution believe convenient use , secure , may useful others , feel free post alt security ripem 5 \) rsa \? rsa crypto system asymmetric , public key means two different , related keys one encrypt one decrypt one cannot \( reasonably \) derived , may publish encryption , public , key widely keep decryption , private , key anyone use public key encrypt message , hold private key needed decrypt note message sent rsa normally des key real plaintext \( see des \? \) note provides disclosure protection originator authenticity , message integrity , non origin services implemented , fingerprint message \( see fingerprint , like md5 \? \) encrypted sender 's private key recipient , dispute resolving authority , use sender 's public key decrypt confirm message must come sender altered rsa named three men \( rivest , shamir \) invented find lots rsa modern cryptography general , ftp rsa com look pub faq information also may sci crypt 6 \) des \? des data encryption standard , widely used symmetric , secret key , crypto system unlike rsa , des uses key encrypt decrypt messages however , des much faster rsa ripem uses des rsa generates random key encrypts mail des using key encrypts key recipient 's public rsa key includes result letter , allowing recipient recover des key des sometimes considered weak somewhat old uses key length considered short modern standards however , reasonably safe opponent smaller large corporation government agency likely pem standard incorporate support symmetric ciphers near future , strong feeling pem stable become utilized widely without early problems interoperability 7 \) fingerprint , like md5 \? md5 message digest algorithm produced rsa data security inc provides 128 bit fingerprint , cryptographically secure hash , plaintext cryptographically secure possible \( reasonable amount computation \) produce different plaintext produces fingerprint thus , instead signing entire message sender 's private key , md5 message needs signed authentication also exchanged directly authentication example , ripem public keys include md5 public key file , parties wishing confirm keys authentic via separate channel merely need exchange keys verify accuracy md5 sometimes used purposes example , often used map input arbitrary length 128 bits data , passphrase interpreter cookie generator md5 described entirety \( including implementation c \) rfc 1321 recent suggestions md5 may strong hash originally believed presumably hash function used accepted true 8 \) pem \? pem privacy enhanced mail , standard allowing transfer encrypted electronic mail generated long period time working group experts described rfcs 1421 1424 documents approved obsolete old rfcs 1113 1115 ripem really complete implementation pem , pem specifies certificates authenticating keys , ripem handle time addition planned 9 \) 's distributing authenticating keys \? remote user able send secure mail , must know public key able confirm message received came , must know public key important information accurate bad guy convinces key fact , send messages read ripem allows three methods key management central server , distributed finger servers , flat file three described ripem users guide part distribution none provide perfect security pem standard calls key management certificates addition feature ripem planned , chicken egg issues still exist 10 \) n't bad idea use patented algorithms standards like pem \? issue considered standards process rfc , specification internet standards , discussion \( section 6 \) specifications availability must met patented method included standard rfc 1421 addresses issue regard patents covering public key cryptography , course , mean questions settled everyone agreement interesting exchange use patented algorithms standards regard public key cryptography league programming freedom archive \( available via ftp ftp uu net doc lpf \) files bidzos letter bidzos response \( , lpf files ftp uu net compressed patented algorithm \) 11 \) rsadsi pkp \? rsa data security , inc \( rsadsi \) california based company cryptographic technologies public key partners firm holds exclusive sub licensing rights following u patents corresponding foreign patents cryptographic apparatus method \( diffie hellman \) 4 , 200 , 770 public key cryptographic apparatus method \( hellman merkle \) 4 , 218 , 582 cryptographic communications system method \( rsa \) 4 , 405 , 829 cryptographic apparatus method \( hellman \) 4 , 424 , 414 pkp claims four patents cover known methods public key cryptography two businesses rather closely related \( example , person , jim bidzos , president \) pkp licensed technology considerable number companies \( ibm , dec , motorola , , lotus \) use products pkp also threatened filed lawsuits defending patents ripem originally created connection rsadsi use rsaref library , reason author 's desire see widespread use public key cryptography however , ball started rolling , people rsadsi got interested rsadsi decided carry ripem ftp site , people started making ripem keys contributing code ripem even best application built rsaref 1992 award 12 \) ripem public keys look similar \? ripem public keys begin pkcs \( public key cryptography standards \) identifier describing various characteristics key , first bunch characters key may lots people 's keys mean keys similar , class key , generated program , length , etc 13 \) pgp \? pgp another cryptographic mail program called pretty good privacy pgp around longer ripem , works somewhat differently pgp compatible ripem way , though pgp also use rsa major differences pgp ripem pgp key management features , particularly users without direct network connection ripem conforms pem rfcs thus greater probability working pem software pgp makes attempt compatible anything ripem uses rsaref , library rsa routines rsadsi comes license allowing noncommercial use pgp uses implementation rsa pkp claims violation patents make , use sell pgp u canada without either license written permission \( see disclaimer \) \( see rsadsi pkp \? \) phil zimmermann , author pgp , stopped distributing threatened legal action believed licensing scheme could arranged , n't happened seems little prospect happening future acknowledges pgp user 's guide fact , live usa , federal agency , n't actually run pgp computer , public key partners wants forbid running software pgp pgp ripem export restricted , cannot sent outside u canada without export license however , pgp already exists many ftp sites europe places whether use pgp ripem whatever , documentation pgp recommended reading anyone interested issues unfortunately , 's distributed separately program , difficult find u ftp sites due liability concerns 14 \) rpem \? rpem stands rabin privacy enhanced mail similar ripem , used public key cipher invented rabin \( rsa \) attempt avoid patents public key systems written mark riordan , later wrote ripem distribution halted , contrary beliefs many \( including rabin \) , pkp claimed patents broad enough cover cipher employed claim universally accepted , challenged pragmatic reasons rpem really used anymore compatible ripem pgp 15 \) mime \? mime stands multipurpose internet mail extensions , described rfc 1341 find newsgroup comp mail mime faq exists pem interact mime yet entirely clear people use solution mime type application x ripem order send ripem messages mime ones hope standards emerge draft internet documents exist matter 16 \) tis pem \? trusted information systems working version privacy enhanced mail general availability last heard , rumored integrated existing mail user agent \( mh \) rather stand alone system , beta test n't know much 17 \) simple way defeat security ripem may wish check companion post ripem attacks discusses obvious attacks ripem 's security procedures minimize risk ripem 's main weak area probably key distribution
mvanheyn cs indiana edu \( marc vanheyningen \) subject ripem frequently noted vulnerabilities article usenet che expires thu , 20 may 1993 00 00 00 gmt organization computer science , indiana university lines 163 content type text x usenet faq version 1 0 title ripem attacks originator mvanheyn silver ucs indiana edu supersedes usenet ucs indiana edu nntp posting host silver ucs indiana edu mime version 1 0 archive name ripem attacks last update 31 mar 93 21 00 00 0500 possible attacks ripem living list potential weaknesses keep eyes open using ripem secure electronic mail go great detail , almost certainly exhaustive obviously , many weaknesses weaknesses cryptographically secured mail general , pertain secure mail programs ripem maintained marc vanheyningen mvanheyn cs indiana edu posted monthly variety news groups followups pertaining specifically ripem go alt security ripem cryptanalysis attacks breaking rsa would allow attacker find private key , case could read mail encrypted sign messages private key rsa generally believed resistant standard cryptanalytic techniques even standard key \( 516 bits ripem \) long enough render impractical , barring huge investment hardware breakthrough factoring breaking des would allow attacker read given message , since message encrypted des would allow attacker claim des 56 bits key , thus could conceivably compromised brute force sufficient hardware , agencies money devote simply read one message since message different des key , work message would remain high key management attacks stealing private key would allow benefits breaking rsa safeguard , encrypted des key derived passphrase type however , attacker get copy private passphrase \( snooping network packets , tapping lines , whatever \) could break whole scheme main risk transferring either passphrase private key file across link n't run ripem trusted machine , preferably one sitting right front ideally , machine home \( maybe office \) nobody else physical access fooling accepting bogus public key someone else could allow opponent deceive sending secret messages rather real recipient enemy fool intended recipient well , could encrypt messages bogus public key pass along important get proper public keys people common mechanism finger assuming opponent compromised daemons , finger given fair amount trust strongest method key authentication exchange keys person however , always practical people vouch signing statement containing key possible , although ripem n't features automatically pgp ripem generate check md5 public keys key files may exchanged via separate channel authentication playback attacks even opponent cannot break cryptography , opponent could still cause difficulties example , suppose send message mic \( pem mode provide disclosure protection \) alice says ok , let 's opponent intercepts , bob , message authenticated telling course , may interpret entirely different context opponent could transmit message recipient much later , figuring would seen differently later time opponent could change originator name , register public key , send message hoping recipient send return mail indicating \( perhaps even quoting ! \) unknown message defeat playback attacks , plaintext message include indication sender recipient , unique identifier \( typically date \) good front end script ripem automatically \( imho \) recipient , sure originator name header sender indicated within plaintext , really recipient , message old one also automated author faq made modest attempt process generating checking encapsulated headers programs included standard distribution utils directory local attacks clearly , security ripem cannot greater security machine encryption performed example , unix , super user could manage get encrypted mail , although would take planning effort something like replace ripem executable trojan horse get copy plaintext , depending 's stored addition , link machine running ripem extension decrypt ripem remote machine connected via network \( , worse yet , modem \) , eavesdropper could see plaintext \( probably also passphrase \) ripem executed systems trust , obviously extreme case , ripem used machine , total control nobody else access , carefully examined software known free viruses , however , 's real trade convenience security moderately cautious user might use ripem unix workstation people access \( even root access \) , increase security keeping private keys \( statically linked , course \) executable floppy disk people keep ripem multi user system , dialing insecure line , download message system perform ripem decryption however , security provided mechanism somewhat since presumably type cleartext password log , 've given away store , since attacker log install traps account steal private key next time use less insecure line likely remain situation long systems use rather quaint mechanism cleartext password authentication find nice put brief statement carefully manage security arrangement plan next public key , potential correspondents aware level precautions place people use two keys , short one carefully managed ordinary use longer one treated greater care critical correspondence partner attacks ripem 's encryption ensure person private key corresponding public key used encrypt data may read traffic however , someone key gets message , may always make whatever kind transformations wishes exist cryptographic barriers recipient , say , taking encrypted message converting mic message , signed readable anyone , although ripem provide functionality indeed , latest pem draft seen specifically states transformations possible allow forwarding functions work including recipients plaintext , mentioned , make possible recipients redistributed message aware original nature naturally , security cryptography never greater security people using
jim miller suite com subject certifying authority question answered organization suite software lines 12 reply jim miller suite com nntp posting host nimrod suite com access ftp , try rsa com , login anonymous several documents , including frequently asked questions today 's cryptography document faq name believe document explains idea behind certifying authorities good luck john kelsey , c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu thanks 've ftp'ed faq file looking jim miller suite com
c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu \( john kelsey \) subject rubber hose cryptanalysis nntp posting host mizzou1 missouri edu organization university missouri lines 7 sick part really liked phrase actually , merely threat long prison sentence , even without beating , get people give especially 's also trip county jail , one happens get locked drunk stoned crazy folks violent left cells people
grady netcom com \( 1016 2ef221 \) subject media organization capriccioso x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 82 many urban legends \( maybe ought crypt faq \? \) actually sufficient clear magnetic media used classified data information horse 's mouth \( regarding sufficient overwriting media \( clearing \) meant retained within controlled environment , material outside controlled environment , \) national telecommunications information systems security \( \) advisory memorandum office automation security guidelines \( 1 87 \) 7 6 2 1 clearing magnetic media certain types removable media \( e g , magnetic tape , floppy disk , cassettes , magnetic cards \) may cleared overwriting entire media one time one character floppy disks may cleared applying vendor 's formatting program location given character fixed media \( e g , winchester disks \) cleared overwriting least one time one character one way applying vendor supplied formatting program location disk given character , shown program actually works advertised user beware programs overwrite locations actually cleared media may resides within controlled facility released destruction however , marked controlled level restrictive sensitivity information ever recorded 7 6 2 2 magnetic media certain types removable media declassified using degaussing device approved media type \( list approved devices maintained nsa \) fixed medium \( example , hard , winchester , disk \) operative , approved method disk pack employ overwrite procedure must overwrite addressable locations least three times writing character , complement \( e g , binary ones binary zeros \) alternatively fixed media become , impossible media overwrite method case , two alternate procedures may used \( 1 \) disassemble disk pack , platter appropriate approved degaussing equipment \( 2 \) courier media vendor 's facility , magnetic media \( e g , disk platter \) removed sight courier returned courier destruction secure site vendor install new platters repair problems disk unit 7 6 3 destruction magnetic media see dod computer security center , department defense magnetic security , csc std 003 85 official use many interesting documents \( many informative probably intended \) computer security procedures obtained \( free \) executive secretary national telecommunications informations systems security committee national security agency fort george g meade , md 6000 write ! 's fun nsa 's mailing list grady netcom com 2ef221 15 e2 ad d3 d1 c6 f3 fc 58 ac f7 3d 4f 01 1e 2f
gtoal gtoal com \( graham toal \) subject hard drive security fbi targets lines 18 res colnet cmhnet org \( rob stampfli \) separate locations gain credibility seized compelled decrypt , simply explain amateur playing around one time pads , first file pad second xor two files , sure enough , pops copy war peace , judging recent history , point drop original charges , find guilty copyright violations , seize computer , home , financial reserves federal forfeiture laws ah really happens turn court another file document gives famous document \) tell , judges would fall g
warlord mit edu \( derek atkins \) subject disk safety measure \? organization massachusetts institute technology lines 33 network ucsd edu nntp posting host steve dallas mit edu reply loki ucsd edu 's message 5 apr 93 19 21 18 gmt begin pgp signed message article network ucsd edu loki ucsd edu \( lance \) writes btw able get pgp produce signature end message procedure \? thanks try pgp sat signing enjoy ! derek pgp 2 key available upon request key server pgp public keys toxicwaste mit edu begin pgp signature version 2 2 end pgp signature derek atkins , mit '93 , electrical engineering computer science secretary , mit student information processing board \( sipb \) mit media laboratory , speech research group warlord mit edu pp asel n1nwh
neuhaus bloch informatik uni kl de \( stephan neuhaus \( \) \) subject pgp 2 2 general comments nntp posting host bloch informatik uni kl de organization university kaiserslautern , germany lines 39 neuhaus vier informatik uni kl de \( stephan neuhaus \( \) \) writes lots stuff hate follow posting , perhaps clarify things wo n't get flamed first , i'm talking , really mean breakthrough cryptanalysis rsa know factoring breaking rsa proven equivalent 's damn convenient repeat every time also admit n't really know property cipher essential key chaining thought little , ca n't find way cryptanalyst could exploit group structure , course , means nothing wrote , please note long much harder factor rsa generate , increase computer speed alone keep key lengths factoring lock step , e , people simply start using longer still safe meant long advantage cryptanalyst faster computer , probably rsa long time come , even 1024 bit somehow could broken fast computers \( new algorithm \) , people would simply use longer users benefit better technology way hope keeps flames away fun stephan neuhaus informatik uni kl de sig closed inventory please leave outside pgp 2 2 public key available request note expiration date
dockmaster ncsc mil subject licensing organization yale cs mail news gateway lines 49 thread brings general question crypto implementation highly publicly source code available ever trusted \? ibm invented des nbs advertised proposals , ibm decided respond , argued keep proprietary biggest proponent proposing dr lewis dr ibm chief scientist come ibm nbs fortunately us , dr understood answer question much better realized difficult would gain acceptance cryptographic mechanism necessary complexity , publicity would sufficient neither would authority fact , taken plus 15 years also independence des solicited nbs , invented proposed ibm , nbs also examined experts like shamir , subject influence even , still people posting list trust des spite time , analysis , public scrutiny \( course , point nist misses attempts gain acceptance novel mechanism , developed secret , basis authority alone \) long thread whether nsa break des silly question cost time break anything important question cost time fundamental strength des rsa nearly important know strength long understand cost duration attacker , use safe way point , may never replace either inability successor overcome knowledge gap des rsa among significant inventions century important inventions history cryptography damned lucky william hugh murray , executive consultant , information system security 49 locust avenue , suite 104 new canaan , connecticut 1 0 att 0 700 dockmaster ncsc mil
ho cs arizona edu \( \) subject licensing public key implementations organization u arizona , cs dept , tucson lines 6 regard speculations nsa involvement creation pkp , find fails test occam 's butcher knife never attribute conspiracy explained greed
ken sugra uucp \( kenneth ng \) subject identifying securing files organization private computer , totowa , nj lines 23 article mash boulder co us mash csn org \( robert \) writes tarnold vnet ibm com \( todd w arnold \) said article 101356 617 almaden ibm com 's ok long trust end user stay application program long runs system user ca n't get otherwise , ca n't stop finding load module code program , simply bypassing check valid module devious user either modify object code running program , run program debugger change instructions memory way foil , clearing single step interrupt , debugger depends , every instructions sensitive areas code assumes person using hardware debug instruction x86 type processor clear debug instruction , running code machine simulator , like one wrote senior project college bypass trace practically anything one could write software kind like star trek \) kenneth ng please reply ken njit edu might elaborate simulation running little device sitting someone 's table j l picard st tng
athena mit edu \( nikos \) subject lga source organization massachusetts institute technology lines 1135 nntp posting host w20 575 104 mit edu got number requests code , written asm borland lga asm lga asm code lga \( c \) nick code segment assume cs code , ds code org start jmp begin gas particle bit 0 particle moving east bit 1 particle moving west bit 2 particle moving north bit 3 particle moving south bit 4 particle moving east bit 5 particle moving west bit 6 particle moving north bit 7 particle moving south rules 1 gas rules \( e w \) ! \( n \) \( e , w \) \( n , \) \( n \) ! \( e w \) \( n , \) \( e , w \) 1100 0011 0011 0011 bytes 2 reflection rules swap bits along directions look table implements two particle collisions hpp lattice gas hpprule db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db 00010001b db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db 00100010b db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db 01000100b db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db 10001000b db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db rule implements velocity reversal needed run gas evolution reverse called particles hit wall head db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db 00100010b db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db 00010001b db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db 10001000b db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db 01000100b db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db db maxbyte equ 55 lineno equ 23 srcptr dw offset dw offset db maxbyte \( lineno 1 \) dup \( 0 \) db maxbyte \( lineno 1 \) dup \( 0 \) db 256 dup \( 0 \) db maxbyte \( lineno 1 \) dup \( 0 \) db 256 dup \( 0 \) data db db db db test lattice gas based encryption db algorithm data encoded particles db digital gas , whose time evolution simulated db cellular type algorithm decryption db achieved running simulation reverse db argument ensures even single db bit flipped , decryption data possible db db gas let evolve 256 , db one either run reverse evolution pressing db space , flip bit run pressing '0' db db cryptographic application , key would consist db number time steps time location db specific bit db db db db db fill gas piece code mov di , cs srcptr mov si , offset data mov cx , lineno push di push cx mov cx , maxbyte mov al , cs si mov cs di , al inc si inc di loop pop cx pop di add di , maxbyte loop mov si , cs srcptr mov di , offset mov cx , maxbyte 3 mov al , 0 mov byte ptr cs si , al al inc si loop ret display gas molecules bouncing around showgas push es push si push di push cx push bx mov ax , mov es , ax mov si , cs srcptr mov di , 160 2 10 2 mov cx , lineno 3 add si , maxbyte 3 push cx push di mov cx , maxbyte mov al , cs si mov byte ptr es di , al inc si add di , 2 dec cx pop di pop cx add di , 160 loop pop bx pop cx pop di pop si pop es ret cs si data cs di destination data first byte special case mov bl , 0 al assembled byte mov bh , cs si maxbyte north one line \( lower \) bh , 10001000b bits 7 3 bl , bh assembled byte mov bh , cs si maxbyte south one line \( higher \) bh , 01000100b bits 6 2 bl , bh place stuff al mov bh , cs si \( maxbyte 1 \) west one byte left \( lower \) bh , 00100010b bits 5 1 bl , bh mov bh , cs si 1 east one byte right \( higher \) bh , 00010001b bits 4 0 bl , bh mov bh , 0 mov al , byte ptr cs bx offset hpprule mov cs di , al inc si inc di middle bytes handled loop mov cx , maxbyte 2 sol1 mov bl , 0 al assembled byte mov bh , cs si maxbyte north one line \( lower \) bh , 10001000b bits 7 3 bl , bh assembled byte mov bh , cs si maxbyte south one line \( higher \) bh , 01000100b bits 6 2 bl , bh place stuff al mov bh , cs si 1 west one byte left \( lower \) bh , 00100010b bits 5 1 bl , bh mov bh , cs si 1 east one byte right \( higher \) bh , 00010001b bits 4 0 bl , bh mov bh , 0 mov al , byte ptr cs bx offset hpprule mov cs di , al inc si inc di loop sol1 last byte also special mov bl , 0 al assembled byte mov bh , cs si maxbyte north one line \( lower \) bh , 10001000b bits 7 3 bl , bh assembled byte mov bh , cs si maxbyte south one line \( higher \) bh , 01000100b bits 6 2 bl , bh place stuff al mov bh , cs si 1 west one byte left \( lower \) bh , 00100010b bits 5 1 bl , bh mov bh , cs si \( maxbyte 1 \) east one byte right \( higher \) bh , 00010001b bits 4 0 bl , bh mov bh , 0 mov al , byte ptr cs bx offset hpprule mov cs di , al inc si inc di ret cs si data cs di destination data first byte special case mov bl , 0 mov bh , cs si maxbyte \( lineno 1 \) bh , 10001000b bits 7 3 bl , bh assembled byte mov bh , cs si maxbyte bh , 01000100b bits 6 2 bl , bh place stuff al mov bh , cs si maxbyte 1 west one byte left \( lower \) bh , 00100010b bits 5 1 bl , bh mov bh , cs si 1 east one byte right \( higher \) bh , 00010001b bits 4 0 bl , bh mov bh , 0 mov al , byte ptr cs bx offset hpprule mov cs di , al inc si inc di middle bytes handled loop mov cx , maxbyte 2 mov bl , 0 al assembled byte mov bh , cs si maxbyte \( lineno 1 \) bh , 10001000b bits 7 3 bl , bh assembled byte mov bh , cs si maxbyte bh , 01000100b bits 6 2 bl , bh place stuff al mov bh , cs si 1 west one byte left \( lower \) bh , 00100010b bits 5 1 bl , bh mov bh , cs si 1 east one byte right \( higher \) bh , 00010001b bits 4 0 bl , bh mov bh , 0 mov al , byte ptr cs bx offset hpprule mov cs di , al inc si inc di loop last byte also special mov bl , 0 al assembled byte mov bh , cs si maxbyte \( lineno 1 \) bh , 10001000b bits 7 3 bl , bh assembled byte mov bh , cs si maxbyte bh , 01000100b bits 6 2 bl , bh place stuff al mov bh , cs si 1 west one byte left \( lower \) bh , 00100010b bits 5 1 bl , bh mov bh , cs si \( maxbyte 1 \) east one byte right \( higher \) bh , 00010001b bits 4 0 bl , bh mov bh , 0 mov al , byte ptr cs bx offset hpprule mov cs di , al ret cs si data cs di destination data first byte special case mov bl , 0 al assembled byte mov bh , cs si maxbyte bh , 10001000b bits 7 3 bl , bh assembled byte mov bh , cs si maxbyte \( lineno 1 \) bh , 01000100b bits 6 2 bl , bh place stuff al mov bh , cs si \( maxbyte 1 \) west one byte left \( lower \) bh , 00100010b bits 5 1 bl , bh mov bh , cs si 1 east one byte right \( higher \) bh , 00010001b bits 4 0 bl , bh mov bh , 0 mov al , byte ptr cs bx offset hpprule mov cs di , al inc si inc di middle bytes handled loop mov cx , maxbyte 2 mov bl , 0 al assembled byte mov bh , cs si maxbyte bh , 10001000b bits 7 3 bl , bh assembled byte mov bh , cs si maxbyte \( lineno 1 \) bh , 01000100b bits 6 2 bl , bh place stuff al mov bh , cs si 1 west one byte left \( lower \) bh , 00100010b bits 5 1 bl , bh mov bh , cs si 1 east one byte right \( higher \) bh , 00010001b bits 4 0 bl , bh mov bh , 0 mov al , byte ptr cs bx offset hpprule mov cs di , al inc si inc di loop last byte also special mov bl , 0 al assembled byte mov bh , cs si maxbyte bh , 10001000b bits 7 3 bl , bh assembled byte mov bh , cs si maxbyte \( lineno 1 \) bh , 01000100b bits 6 2 bl , bh place stuff al mov bh , cs si 1 west one byte left \( lower \) bh , 00100010b bits 5 1 bl , bh mov bh , cs si \( maxbyte 1 \) east one byte right \( higher \) bh , 00010001b bits 4 0 bl , bh mov bh , 0 mov al , byte ptr cs bx offset hpprule mov cs di , al inc si inc di ret velocities gas push bx push cx push si mov si , cs srcptr mov bx , 0 mov cx , lineno push cx mov cx , maxbyte mov bl , cs si mov al , byte ptr cs bx \( offset \) mov cs si , al inc si loop pop cx loop pop si pop cx pop bx ret mov si , cs srcptr mov di , cs mov cs srcptr , di mov cs , si push si push di call pop di pop si add si , maxbyte add di , maxbyte mov cx , lineno 2 dont scan first last l1 push si push di push cx call pop cx pop di pop si add si , maxbyte add di , maxbyte loop l1 push si push di call pop si pop di l3 ret iterate hpp rule cx times iterate push cx call pop cx call showgas loop iterate ret iterate hpp rule cx times mov si , 0 mov cx , offset iu4 offset iu3 mov al , byte ptr cs si offset iu3 xor byte ptr cs si offset iu4 , al inc si loop call call showgas mov si , cs srcptr mov cx , maxbyte 3 mov bx , 0 mov ah , 0 mov al , 255 mov bl , byte ptr cs si mov dl , byte ptr cs bx ah xor dl , ah al , dl inc si loop mov si , 0 mov cx , offset iu4 offset iu3 mov ah , byte ptr cs si offset iu4 ah , al xor byte ptr cs si offset iu3 , ah inc si loop jmp iu3 iu3 mov ax , offset push ax ret db 256 dup \( \) iu4 push ax push bx push cx push dx push ds mov ah , 9 mov dx , cs int pop ds pop dx pop cx pop bx pop ax ret db 512 dup \( \) dw offset msg msg db message printed , 10 , 13 db code decrypted using data lattice , 10 , 13 db applied decoding routine , 10 , 13 db every time step , 10 , 13 db decoding function left code unchanged , 10 , 13 db except gas evolution , 10 , 13 db reversed , 10 , 13 , times equ 16 256 enough gas begin mov ax , mov bh , 7 mov dh , 25 mov dl , 80 mov cx , 0 int 10h mov ah , 2 mov bh , 0 mov dh , 24 mov dl , 0 int 10h call call showgas mov ah , 0 int 16h push cx mov cx , times call iterate call call showgas mov ah , 0 int 16h cmp al , 0 mov si , cs srcptr xor byte ptr cs si , mov cx , times call call call showgas mov ax , int code ends end start
subject illegal wiretaps \( denning 's trust \) kubo zariski harvard edu \( tal kubo \) distribution inet organization dept math , harvard univ nntp posting host zariski harvard edu lines 33 article bigboote wpi edu ear bigwpi wpi edu \( mr neat tm \) writes apparently quite easy get hold person 's calling records phone company police \( lawyers \) able acquire information without warrant judicial supervision , whether target suspected specific crimes pardon , n't illegal \? impression warrent needed get information phone company order protect people 's privacy legal , 've seen done phone records obtained order establish probable cause , rather result words , fishing expedition local \( worcester , \) police officer spoke couple nights ago told usually phone companies records extreme conditions 's much hassle phone company require written , subpoena able evidence probable cause order process request \? suggest officer disinterested pursuing case even could prove offender called certain time , chances winning harassment suit strength evidence nil contact several people dealt cases extreme phone harassment \( several thousand calls one case \) teaches police area quite lethargic pursuing matters tal
bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de \( vesselin bontchev \) subject licensing public key implementations reply bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de organization virus test center , university hamburg lines 23 strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes provide one hint reported rsa expressed \( conference \) nobody asked permission use ripem write pgp compatible program actually supports bill 's speculation backdoor rsaref pkp supported secretly nsa , natural welcome public key implementation uses rsaref strongly oppose implementation n't personally cannot see one could put backdoor long precision modular arithmetic library comes source , , course , fact cannot see means nothing regards , vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center , university hamburg tel 49 40 54715 224 , fax 49 40 54715 226 fachbereich informatik agn pgp 2 2 public key available request vogt koelln strasse 30 , rm 107 c e mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de 2000 hamburg 54 , germany
bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de \( vesselin bontchev \) subject opinions rc2 reply bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de organization virus test center , university hamburg lines 18 markowitz dockmaster ncsc mil writes interesting note regard permission export pkzip 's encryption scheme twice denied nsa draw conclusions uh , i'm afraid information slightly date obtained license export program whole world , except limited list countries draw conclusions strength algorithm \) regards , vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center , university hamburg tel 49 40 54715 224 , fax 49 40 54715 226 fachbereich informatik agn pgp 2 2 public key available request vogt koelln strasse 30 , rm 107 c e mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de 2000 hamburg 54 , germany
bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de \( vesselin bontchev \) subject disk safety measure \? reply bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de organization virus test center , university hamburg lines 23 cuffell spot colorado edu \( tim cuffel \) writes guarantee deleted space would overwritten optimization likely , guarantee quicker secure method would batch file free space example fill bat echo 1 fill bat \( top head include std disclaimer h \) much easier , faster , probably even secure use norton 6 0 \( i'm talking ibm pc \) tell \( \) clean free disk space \( b \) clean slack space end files use government standard option careful overwriting regards , vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center , university hamburg tel 49 40 54715 224 , fax 49 40 54715 226 fachbereich informatik agn pgp 2 2 public key available request vogt koelln strasse 30 , rm 107 c e mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de 2000 hamburg 54 , germany
dockmaster ncsc mil subject licensing organization yale cs mail news gateway lines 24 actually supports bill 's speculation backdoor rsaref pkp supported secretly nsa , natural welcome public key implementation uses rsaref strongly oppose implementation n't speculation include depend upon trapdoor rsaref believe rsa would consent however , limitation concept rsaref nsa interest interest limited number implementations , e , targets interest fixed key maximum size legitimate \( literally \) right pursue interests within bounds , probably right pursue interests covert means least right rest us disclose motives intentions \( institutions self aware know intentions meaningful sense \) william hugh murray , executive consultant , information system security 49 locust avenue , suite 104 new canaan , connecticut 1 0 att 0 700 dockmaster ncsc mil
tom van taligent com \( tom van \) subject looking one way \( trap door , password encryption , etc \) algorithms organization distribution usa lines 21 michael levin wrote looking references algorithms used password encryption e , someone clear text word , runs algorithm , becomes sequence symbols want algorithm property \) next impossible reverse , b \) would take long try possible words see one works \( even use high speed computer \) please send references ideas mlevin husc8 harvard edu original one way encryption put 1968 \( suggested joe \) air force tiger team demonstrated may 1973 asked expert \( requested anonymity \) use instead expert 's suggestion treat 8 byte password key data lucifer encryption algorithm , similar identical des method something stronger take care \( \) issue \( b \) discussed comp security misc longer passwords quality control users choose passwords common tactics tom taligent com
enet dec com subject hard drive security fbi targets organization turing police lines 22 cme ellisun sw stratus com \( carl ellison \) writes example , program disk created totally random files looking like encrypted messages could demonstrate file question could created program , claim , fact , created program must stand true \( since i'm innocent \) unless someone prove wrong hmmm brings neat idea unfortunately , 's sooo neat , think ought patent ca n't tell sorry \) bill copyright 1993 william \( aka \) rights reserved , responsibility taken love smell flash powder morning ! smells like like theatre
jgk osc com \( joe keane \) subject hard drive security fbi targets summary encrypted data looks random keywords entropy reply joe keane jgk osc com organization object technology lines 47 weather mostly cloudy , high 64 , low 49 moon phase waxing \( 99 full \) article 1993apr2 ucsu colorado edu cuffell spot colorado edu \( tim cuffel \) writes create bunch sets random data , encrypt keep one sets random data around , show random data kicks rest , delete keys tell friends think establishes reasonable doubt contents encrypted files , ability provides keys since anyone could , law forces user provide keys demand worthless law much worse worthless gives police power put innocent people jail \( police \) find something n't understand police n't know return key , never mind difference core file classified military secrets plenty scenarios user would idea something either could junk burden proof user show 's something normal upstanding citizen one ever put situation , especially america 's disgusting easily people go along , provide bargaining chip hypothetical alleged child molester drug dealer , whatever bad thing style time basically people n't clear distinction criminals suspects analogy , 's like find loose screw house , insist 're building bomb machine gun ask came \( like 'd know \) , ask prove claim explain simple terms , people may start get idea matter fact , keep random files disk reason , without special purpose hardware , takes long time generate good random bits programs crank couple bits per minute , pretty conservative , time 's need think , 's point actually encrypting random data , gives different random data want data look like encrypted file , put appropriate header enough people , put jail get arrested police ask keys , tell 's random junk , although course wo n't believe 're sitting jail , take consolation fact government burn cpu years trying find something 's joe keane , amateur jgk osc com \( uunet ! ! osc ! jgk \)
graham toal gtoal gtoal com subject hard drive security fbi targets originator gtoal pizzabox demon co uk keywords entropy nntp posting host pizzabox demon co uk reply graham toal gtoal gtoal com organization cuddlehogs anonymous lines 9 article 6040 osc com joe keane jgk osc com writes matter fact , keep random files disk reason , without special purpose hardware , takes long time generate good random bits programs crank couple bits per minute , pretty conservative , time 's need sounds like useful program interested posting alt sources \? g
cme ellisun sw stratus com \( carl ellison \) subject hard drive security organization stratus computer , software engineering lines 18 nntp posting host ellisun sw stratus com keywords cooperation article rpi edu rpi edu writes say , anyone send info hard disk ps would also like know consequences types actions chose future country european countries people encrypting notes notebooks hundreds years maybe thousand 's long tradition dating least back know nothing bad happening would assume nothing bad would happen , given long history establishing encryption property individuals , please disclaimer opinions expressed , course carl ellison cme sw stratus com stratus computer inc m3 2 bkw tel \( 508 \) 460 2783 55 fairbanks boulevard marlborough 01752 1298 fax \( 508 \) 624 7488
cme ellisun sw stratus com \( carl ellison \) subject licensing public key implementations organization stratus computer , software engineering lines 28 nntp posting host ellisun sw stratus com article 1993apr4 magnus acs ohio state edu jebright magnus acs ohio state edu \( james r ebright \) writes guess wait time far future everyone uses good crypto nsa job agency disbanded files opened historical delay \) 've overlooked fundamental truth budget government agency increasing functions given truth , need look agency occupy people spend money crypto unbreakable perhaps could talk world 's telephone companies making equipment could break tap maybe could convince people distributed computing good idea even internal state process would available access wiretapping maybe disclaimer opinions expressed , course carl ellison cme sw stratus com stratus computer inc m3 2 bkw tel \( 508 \) 460 2783 55 fairbanks boulevard marlborough 01752 1298 fax \( 508 \) 624 7488
ray ole cdac com \( ray berry \) subject hard drive security fbi targets organization cascade design automation lines 32 rja14 cl cam ac uk \( ross anderson \) writes article 1993apr2 ucsu colorado edu , cuffell spot colorado edu \( tim cuffel \) writes suggests new pc security product design approach first fill hard drive 50 random files 50 files encrypted number known keys whenever new secret file created , delete random file replace real encrypted data new non secret files encrypted known key better yet , instead thrashing around dos file system , take step write minimal file system program used create delete files , en decrypt ramdisk , list directory put util , password protected , floppy catch storage space used util part dos file system instead , defrag disk , thus packing allocated clusters clusters 0 n use back end partition hold file system , leave small 2nd partition disk assigned dos another approach might use directory contains set invariant files \( dos system files , instance \) due dos allocating minimum storage unit cluster unused physical space disk tail end file end associated cluster dead spaces could concatenated used hold stealth file system situation encrypted data appears disk \) ray berry ray ole cdac com eskimo com compuserve com
cs psu edu \( c \) subject source random bits unix workstation nntp posting host cs psu edu organization penn state computer science lines 19 article 897 pivot sbi com bet sbi com \( bennett todd salomon brothers inc , ny \) writes came decided configure mit magic cookie 1 security x11r5 work need stick bits intruder ca n't guess file \( readable \) x client applications read pass bits back server want establish connection settled grabbing bunch traffic network basically , ran etherfind u x greater 0 compress skipped 10k output , grabbed bits best tell , bits expected reasonably uniformly distributed , quite intruder application , encrypt real time clock value secret key
ji cs columbia edu \( john ioannidis \) subject source random bits unix workstation article cs organization columbia university department computer science lines 35 article cs psu edu cs psu edu \( c \) writes article 897 pivot sbi com bet sbi com \( bennett todd salomon brothers inc , ny \) writes came decided configure mit magic cookie 1 security x11r5 work need stick bits intruder ca n't guess file \( readable \) x client applications read pass bits back server want establish connection settled grabbing bunch traffic network basically , ran etherfind u x greater 0 compress skipped 10k output , grabbed bits best tell , bits expected reasonably uniformly distributed , quite intruder application , encrypt real time clock value secret key good discussion cryptographically good random number generators , check draft security randomness 00 txt internet draft , available local friendly internet drafts repository reasonably source randomness output cryptographic hash function \( e g , md5 \) , fed large amount less random data example , running md5 dev mem slow , random enough , source random bits bound 128 bits entropy tens \( hundreds \) megabytes data modern workstation 's memory , fair amount system timers , buffers , etc ji
bear kestrel fsl noaa gov \( bear giles \) subject fifth amendment passwords organization forecast systems labs , noaa , boulder , co usa lines 37 article 1993apr15 magnus acs ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu \( andrew hall \) writes postive someone correct wrong , n't fifth also cover forced actions self incriminating \? e g police could n't demand silently take body buried money hidden make piss jar , possibly provide dna , semen , hair samples undergo tests gunpowder hand \( btw , chemical engineer arrested wtc explosion thrust hands toilet filled urine cops breaking door nitrogen urine would mask residue explosives found interesting news reported acts , reasons \) somewhere , perhaps privacy group , discussed legal ramifications using password like shot jimmy body storage locker camden back impression got real judges would dismiss arguments password self incrimination first year law school sophistry fact use statement password bearing veracity phrase asked \( e g , bury body \? \) asked provide information necessary execute legal search warrant refusing provide password akin refusing provide key storage locker except could always force way locker course , n't mean help understand find , point things overlooked search ! bear giles bear fsl noaa gov
zrepachol cc curtin edu au \( paul repacholi \) subject going \? lines 26 organization curtin university technology distribution inet article transfer stratus com , cme ellisun sw stratus com \( carl ellison \) writes article 1993apr14 mnemosyne cs du edu nyx cs du edu \( russell webb \) writes call paranoid , kind scare story dorothy denning citing calling limitation cryptography doubt dd behind suspect fbi \( maybe nsa \) behind dd agencies could easily mounting nationwide campaign \( tax dollars \? \) build public outcry digital communication especially unbreakable , encrypted communication 's going \? \? n't read noam chomsky 's works \? widely used information net outside control 'right people' unthinkable hundreds billions dollars spent wipe , sorry , order it' major media powers wake ca n't bothered reading , get video manufacturing consent paul
marc tanda isis org \( marc thibault \) subject hard drive security fbi targets reply marc tanda isis org distribution world organization thibault friends lines 45 1 straight encryption put results misleading names somewhere wo n't noticed \( eg windows directory nobody knows half files \) 2 straight encryption bat file decrypt ramdisk set point 3 set another bat file decrypt execute first \( ram disk \) take name target file argument link file \( non existent \) batch file referred rest system comment looks like test script fooling around pgp set pgp directory 4 leave original came pgp directory pgp good indication playing , n't made serious use pgp add set keys name really simple passphrase never use , use widely published key low security e mail 5 needed , run second bat file make sure intermediate generated ramdisk 6 hear concussion grenade , hit power switch cheers , marc marc thibault cis 71441 , 2226 put another log marc tanda isis org nc freenet aa185 fire begin pgp public key block version 2 0 mqbnaiqxytkaaaecalfehyp0yc80s1scfvjspj5escao hihtnefrrn vuecsavh aauwpiugyv2n8n lftpnnlc42ms c8pjupykvi8abrg0i01hcmmgvghpymf1bhqg pg1hcmnadgfuzgeuaxnpcy5vcmc hlnv end pgp public key block
grady netcom com \( 1016 2ef221 \) subject source pgp 2 2 c available organization capriccioso x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 84 source code macintosh pgp 2 2 available via anonymous ftp ftp netcom com cd pub grady mget sea hqx mget convert compact pro self extracting archive binhex 4 0 appropriate , check digital signature hqx file copy pgp \( non macintosh users wishing check digital signature please note denotes end line macintosh , \) purposes itar act , technical hereby released public domain \( however representation made copyright commercial rights may exist package \) full source code , symantec think c 5 0 4 projects full user documentation included 68020 68000 versions pretty good privacy , strong public key encryption digital signature application using rsa algorithm patented united states idea cipher patented switzerland executables included executables available via anonymous ftp leif lu se \( sweden \) night ac jp \( japan \) van bc wimsey bc ca \( canada \) soda berkeley edu \( p r berkeley \) src doc ic ac uk \( united kingdom \) ghost dsi unimi \( italy \) plaza aarnet edu au \( australia \) nic funet fi \( finland \) 's public keys available anonymous server sites \( send message subject help information \) internet sites pgp public keys cc iastate edu michael explorer iastate edu ftp cc iastate edu usr explorer public keys pgp pgp public keys toxicwaste mit edu derek atkins warlord mit edu ftp toxicwaste mit edu pub keys public keys pgp pgp public keys phil utmb edu john perry perry phil utmb edu ftp phil utmb edu pub pgp public keys pgp pgp public keys demon co uk mark turner mark demon co uk ftp ftp demon co uk pub pgp pgp uucp site pgp public keys jpunix com john perry perry jpunix com executable application built sources licensed rsa data security , inc rsa public key algorithm idea block cipher algorithm approved national security agency unclassified technical documentation made available educational use possession , distribution , use executable binary built source may civil criminal offense suggested improvements , bugs , comments directly posted alt security pgp principal developers listed among source documents general questions comments public key cryptography idea cipher may posted alt security pgp sci crypt usenet groups grady netcom com 2ef221 15 e2 ad d3 d1 c6 f3 fc 58 ac f7 3d 4f 01 1e 2f
kadie cs uiuc edu \( carl kadie \) subject fifth amendment passwords organization university illinois , dept comp sci , urbana , il lines 42 magnus acs ohio state edu \( andrew hall \) writes postive someone correct wrong , n't fifth also cover forced actions self incriminating \? mike godwin mnemonic eff org , posted permission carl sadly , suspects compelled give handwriting voice exemplars , take blood dna tests e g police could n't demand silently take body buried money hidden , could produce key safe , happens , evidence convict stored crypto key disclosure issue n't come yet , current law suggests 's loser defendant 'll compelled turn key test compelled self incrimination whether material disclosed tends example gave , safe key testimonial value ergo , disclosed compulsion \( e g , subpoena \) moreover , government always disclosure crypto key compelling disclose key price using fact disclosure evidence case course , use whatever discover result disclosure mike carl kadie represent organization kadie cs uiuc edu
bob natasha portal com \( bob cain \) subject pgp , pem , rfc 's \( cryptography patents \) organization oce graphics usa x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl7 lines 41 charles kincy \( ckincy cs umr edu \) wrote say yeah , right 're willing pay mucho big bucks use routines tell n't sound reasonable say full shit negotiated license bucks incredibly reasonable upfront charge sliding scale depending capitalization startup ca n't afford ca n't afford start first place people insist making unequivocal statements know nothing n't guess pkp rsa interested big bucks maybe agenda \? secure communications government agents , perhaps \? considered treatment paranoia \? government single biggest thorn rsa 's side limitation let guess n't use code way pkp rsa n't like providing secure communications average citizen exactly purpose know anything nothing preventing average citizen using , selling hope cynicism misplaced go ahead i'm afraid wrong every , uneasy feeling right \( wrong yet emotionally state bunch crap fact tiny disclaimer end check facts first grow strong correlation interest cryptography immaturity wonder bob cain \( normally netcom com \)
ld231782 longs lance colostate edu \( l detweiler \) subject privacy anonymity internet faq \( 1 3 \) supersedes net privacy part1 gza com organization tmp enterprises lines 1220 expires 21 may 1993 04 00 06 gmt reply ld231782 longs lance colostate edu nntp posting host pad thai aktis com summary email account privacy , anonymous mailing posting , encryption , privacy rights issues associated use internet global networks general x last updated 1993 03 04 archive name net privacy part1 last modified 1993 3 3 version 2 1 identity , privacy , anonymity internet \( c \) 1993 l detweiler commercial use except permission author , otherwise may freely copied altered please credit quoted summary information email account privacy , anonymous mailing posting , encryption , privacy rights issues associated use internet global networks general \( search exact section search ' ' \( underline \) next section \) part 1 \( file \) identity 1 1 `identity' internet \? 1 2 identity \( un \) important internet \? 1 3 email address \( \) identify background \? 1 4 find somebody email address \? 1 5 identification \( un \) stable internet \? 1 6 future identification internet \? privacy 2 1 `privacy' internet \? 2 2 privacy \( un \) important internet \? 2 3 \( \) secure internet networks \? 2 4 \( \) secure account \? 2 5 \( \) secure files directories \? 2 6 \( \) secure x windows \? 2 7 \( \) secure email \? 2 8 \( \) liable email postings \? 2 9 provide less information others identity \? 2 10 sysadmin \? know \? 2 11 privacy \( un \) stable internet \? 2 12 future privacy internet \? anonymity 3 1 `anonymity' internet \? 3 2 `anonymity' \( un \) important internet \? 3 3 anonymity protected internet \? 3 4 `anonymous mail' \? 3 5 `anonymous posting' \? 3 6 anonymity \( un \) stable internet \? 3 7 future anonymity internet \? part 2 \( next file \) resources 4 1 unix programs related privacy \? 4 2 learn use cryptography \? 4 3 cypherpunks mailing list \? 4 4 privacy related newsgroups \? faqs \? 4 5 internet privacy enhanced mail \( pem \) \? 4 6 request comments \( rfcs \) related privacy \? 4 7 run anonymous remailer \? 4 8 references privacy email \? 4 9 email , usenet , internet use policies \? 4 10 mit anonymous message tv program \? miscellaneous 5 1 ``digital \? 5 2 ``hacker'' ``cracker'' \? 5 3 \? 5 4 `steganography' anonymous pools \? 5 5 `security obscurity' \? 5 6 \? 5 7 standards needed guard electronic privacy \? issues 6 1 electronic frontier foundation \( eff \) \? 6 2 computer professionals social responsibility \( cpsr \) \? 6 3 `operation sun steve jackson game case \? 6 4 integrated services digital network \( isdn \) \? 6 5 national research education network \( nren \) \? 6 6 fbi 's proposed digital telephony act \? 6 7 u legislation related privacy networks \? 6 8 references rights cyberspace \? 6 9 computers academic freedom \( caf \) archive \? footnotes 7 1 background behind internet \? 7 2 internet `anarchy' like english language \? 7 3 wanted list 7 4 change history part 3 \( last file \) 8 1 known anonymous remailing posting sites \? 8 2 responsibilities associated anonymity \? 8 3 anonymous postings \? 8 4 history behind anonymous posting servers \? 8 5 value anonymity \? 8 6 anonymous posting groups allowed \? 8 7 system operators anonymous postings \? 8 8 going anon penet fi maintained j helsingius \? identity 1 1 `identity' internet \? generally , today people 's `identity' internet primarily determined email address sense unchanging electronic realm login name qualified complete address domain information , example longs lance colostate people see address receiving mail reading usenet posts situations programs record usage obsolete forms addresses \( bitnet \) still persist email messages , additional information path message takes prepended message received recipient information identifies chain hosts involved transmission accurate trace type identify forward protocol also used usenet protocol lesser extent forging fields requires corrupted mailing software sites involved forwarding uncommon uncommon forging chain point , initial sites list faked time message created tracing messages difficult impossible initial faked fields names real machines represent real transfer routes 1 2 identity \( un \) important internet \? concept identity closely communication , privacy , security , turn critical aspects computer networks example , convenience communication afforded email would impossible without conventions identification many potential abuses identity possible severe consequences , massive computer networks forefront issue , potentially either exacerbate solve problems verifying identity correct called , one classic example problems associated h g well 's radio broadcast fooled segments population thinking alien invasion progress order uncommon usenet forged identities makes people reputations assaulted forgery however , identity internet one attractive features identity useful harmful professor might carefully explain topic finds talking undergraduate person particular occupation may able converse others might normally shun prejudices erased , , hand , many prejudices useful ! scientist might argue better evaluate findings paper reviewer knows authors likewise , may likely reject based unfair irrelevant criteria side connection , author may find identities reviewers useful exerting pressure acceptance identity especially crucial establishing regulating \( necessarily financial \) many functions society demand reliable accurate techniques identification heavy reliance placed digital authentication global economies become increasingly electronic many government functions services based identification , law enforcement frequently hinges hence , employees many government organizations push toward stronger identification structures identification invade privacy \? growth internet provoking social forces massive proportions decisions made issues identity affect many future users , especially network becomes increasingly global , universal , widespread , entrenched positive adverse affects actions , intended , literally magnified exponentially 1 3 email address \( \) identify background \? email address may contain information influences people 's perceptions background address may department particular university , employee company , government worker may contain last name , initials , cryptic identification codes independent us based parts social security numbers others form number order new users added system standard internet addresses also contain information broad geographical location however , none information guaranteed correct fields domain qualification username based rather arbitrary organization , \( mostly invisible \) network cabling distributions point make early fields address specific \( specific computer names local networks \) later ones general \( continental domains \) typically first field name computer receiving mail information email address alone sometimes inspired art inconsistent futile exercise \( information , see faqs email addresses known geographical distributions \) however , unix utilities exist aid quest \( see question \) common us united states uk united kingdom ca canada fi finland au australia edu university college com commercial organization org \( e g nonprofit organization \) gov government mil military site 1 4 find somebody given email address \? one simple way send email address , asking another way send mail postmaster address \( e postmaster address \) , although postmaster 's job help find user id 's particular people given real name solve mail routing problems sysadmin \( e address' \) may also able supply information users related email address may information however , methods rely time patience others use minimally one basic tools determining identity internet unix utility basic syntax finger user everywhere utility uses communication protocols query computer named address information user named response generated completely receiving computer may format possible responses follows message meaning aspect address incorrect , two lines information ' \? \? \? ' message 'in real life \? \? \? ' case receiving computer could find kind match username finger utility may return response situations listing information associated multiple users computers search matching user ids , others attempt find username specified actual full names users kept local database sites used get list users system address' general often considered weak security , however , know valid user id 's passwords information fields returned `finger' given information `finger' locating people 's email addresses given email faq \( whois lookup utility \) use means find others , use find `finger' find publicly reported unix system careful modifying `finger' data virtually anyone internet access worldwide query information one amazing case , new york times writer j uncovered identity r morris , author internet worm , use anonymous tip see book cyberspace k j 1 5 identification \( un \) stable internet \? generally , identity amorphous almost nonexistent concept internet variety reasons one inherent people emerge frequently , readily noted people remember faces voices , primary means casual identification world' arbitary cryptic sequences letters digits comprising email addresses particularly noticeable memorable far unique identification individual , may use multiple accounts multiple machines anywhere world currently internet users really great assurances messages email usenet appear person 's mailing address far identification individual anyone access account , e g know password , either legitimately otherwise , send mail address line email addresses individual tend change frequently switch jobs make moves inside organizations part current mailing protocol standards , forging line mail messages fairly trivial operation many hackers status path information prepended messages intermediate hosts generally general , possible , forgeries fairly rare newsgroups email besides pathological cases many basic problems today 's internet protocols affecting identification internet internet mail standards , described rfc 822 , still evolving rapidly entirely orderly example , standards mail address tend vary slightly sites frequently mean difference finding addresses bouncing mail domain names computer names frequently changed sites , delays propagation data addresses cannot resolved certain critical computers crash , receiving computer computers involved resolving names addresses called whole slew problems associated updated find name addresses , even operation constitutes different interpretations different sites current internet mailing addressing protocols slightly anachronistic created network somewhat obscure widespread , fraction traffic sees today large proportion internet traffic email , comprising millions messages 1 6 future identification internet \? new technologies standards introducing facial images voice messages mail improve sense community comes familiarity identification however , currently widespread , require large amounts data transfer , standardized software , make compromises privacy promising new cryptographic techniques may make common \( see \) also , trend usenet standards toward greater authentication posted information hand , advances ensuring anonymity \( remailers \) forthcoming see privacy 2 1 `privacy' internet \? generally , `privacy' multiple connotations society perhaps even internet , cyberspace take mean exclusive use access account data stored directed \( email \) , encounter arbitrary restrictions searches words , others may obtain data associated account , without permission ideas probably fairly limiting liberal scope internet users consider private domains users n't expect want privacy , expect demand 2 2 privacy \( un \) important internet \? somewhat debatable inflammatory topic , passionate opinions internet , take privacy granted surprised find tenuous nonexistent governments rules protect privacy \( illegal search seizure clause u constitution , adopted others \) many antithetical \( laws prohibiting secret communications allowing wiretapping \) rules generally carry internet specific rules governing however , legal repercussions global internet still largely unknown untested \( e strong legal precedents court cases \) fact internet traffic frequently passes past international boundaries , centrally managed , significantly strongly regulation 2 3 \( \) secure internet networks \? people site chain sites access hardware network media transmits data internet could potentially monitor archive however , sheer volume general inherent data makes scenarios highly improbable , even government agencies supposedly vast funding resources technologies exist magnetic fields given electrical wires without detection less , machine network connection potential station traffic detection , scenario requires knowledge access low level hardware \( network card \) pursue , even possible company network general inc one many manufactures markets sophisticated network monitoring tools read packets arbitrary criteria troubleshooting purposes , cost type device casual use known instances types security major scale \( network \) rare greatest risks tend emerge locally note approaches almost completely use cryptography 2 4 \( \) secure account \? default , multitude factors may reinforce compromise aspects privacy internet first , account must secure users universal system use password , \( e easy guess \) security significantly diminished somewhat surprisingly frighteningly , certain users system , particularly administrator , generally unlimited access regardless passwords , may grant access others means may read file account without detection furthermore , universally known , unix systems keep fairly extensive accounting records logged , commands execute , executed \( fact , login information usually public \) features information enabled default initial installation system administrator may customize strengthen weaken satisfy performance privacy aims information frequently consulted troubleshooting purposes may otherwise ignored data tracks unsuccessful login attempts activities system traditional part unix system tracks user commands easily user use symbolic links \( described \) unix implementations vary widely particularly tracking features new sophisticated mechanisms introduced companies regularly typically system adminstrators augment basic unix functionality public domain programs locally developed tools monitoring , use isolate activity arises \( e g remote accesses file , incorrect login attempts , remote connection attempts , etc \) generally , expect little privacy account various reasons potentially , every keystroke type could intercepted someone else system administrators make extensive backups completely invisible users may record states account many weeks erased files , many operating systems , automated services keep logs use troubleshooting otherwise example ftp sites usually log commands record domain users , including anonymous ones software problems see section windows \( \) administrators fellow users , much commonly harmful threat multiple ways help ensure account accessed others , compromises often traced failures guidelines choose secure password change periodically make sure logout always leave machine unattended long make sure one watches type password avoid password references email conservative use file use utilities like protect station , considerate wary situations think supply password several basic situations unix prompts password logging system changing password situations arise prompts passwords forged users , especially cases talking \( internet relay chat \) also , aware forged login screens one method obtain passwords \( thanks jim cs ucsd edu contributions \) 2 5 \( \) secure files directories \? important privacy considerations related file rights , many lapses traced misunderstood nature maintenance aware rights associated files directories unix \( \) right parent directory users , groups , , users cannot gain information anything directories anything less may allow others read , change , even delete files home directory rights directory rights associated files directory directory , 'x' means access files \( subdirectories \) directory possible know names list contents directory , however , requires 'r' right default accounts accessable owner , initial configuration varies sites based administrator preference default file mode specifies initial rights associated newly created files , set shell details rights implementations tend vary versions unix consult man pages examples traver lance ls ld 15 ld231782 1536 jan 31 21 22 users ld231782 listing rights associated user 's home directory , denoted ` ' columns left identify rights available first column identifies entry directory , next three columns mean read , write , execute rights , respectively , permitted user directories , right means contents \( file subdirectory names \) within directory listed subsequent columns indicate users rights anything directory tree originating point ca n't even lower files subdirectories hierarchy completely invisible traver lance ls l msg rw r r 1 ld231782 jan 29 23 13 msg traver lance chmod u rw , g , msg traver lance ls l msg rw 1 ld231782 jan 29 23 13 msg modes file changed take away rights note l file ' requires 'r' right get list files subdirectories , 'x' right access files subdirectories order get size , etc example , suppose directory rights dr r r , following possible ls foo commands would fail independent file rights ls l foo ls l foo file cat foo file cd foo directory rights x x x , following possible known beforehand contains 'r' readable file named ls l foo file cat foo file cd foo following commands fail ls foo ls l foo \( thanks uwe uwe sb mpg de contributions \) 2 6 \( \) secure x windows \? x windows primary software developed mit athena project funded u government grants develop applications harness power networks enhancing computational tasks , particularly human computer interface software implements client server interface computer via graphical windows case application requesting utilizing graphical resources \( windows mouse \) machine provides many situations client application program running machine server great utility x windows comes complete client server windows may server remote location client unfortunately dynamic power also many deep , intricate , complicated security considerations primary security privacy issue associated x windows much sensitive data may sent network , wider regions , case human situated near host computer currently encryption data screen updates keystrokes x windows due either intentional design decisions unintentional design flaws , early versions x window system extremely insecure anyone account server machine disrupt display read electronically based access device unix 0 0 regular user protections type access versions problem arises security completely based machine addresses rather users , user machine trusted quoting x documentation \( man \) client host host access control list allowed access x server system work reasonably well environment everyone trusts everyone , single person log given machine system work well multiple people log single machine mutual trust exist access control list , command may prevent naive attempts \( e direct access unix 0 0 evasion \) syntax typed host machine name '' name domain name internet address authorized client machine default clients running host disabled public domain programs disrupt display momentarily \( slowly mirror screen image , cause pixels bottom \) circulating internet among hackers several years played pranks unsuspecting inexperienced users much serious security conceivable similar mechanisms exploiting inherent weaknesses \( minimal , easily security mode referred hanging open , security terrible '' \) new versions x window system \( x11r5 higher \) default make server access secure file system using xauthority file remote machines must code xauthority file home directory matches code allowed server many older programs even new vendor supplied code support incompatible basic magic cookie mechanism vulnerable monitoring techniques described earlier encryption keys occurs transmission x11r5 also includes sophisticated encryption mechanisms try `man find supported site even though improved security mechanisms available x windows since 1990 , local sites often update software infrequently installation extremely complex \( thanks marc vanheyningen mvanheyn whale cs indiana edu , jim cs ucsd edu , bill marshall marshall cs iastate edu contributions \) 2 7 \( \) secure email \? default , characters reading almost certainly encoded ascii , american standard code information interchange maps symbolic characters onto numeric codes vice versa virtually every computer system uses code , , ways converting write mail message , default sent ascii , since standard virtually universal , intrinsic privacy despite worth accumulated cryptographic knowledge , cryptographic technologies recently established afford high priority privacy primary criteria computer network design potential pitfalls privacy follows serious threats instances immature unscrupulous system operators reading private mail local site \( e source destination message \) , university system administrators may also release files law enforcement agencies , conventions protocols warrants involving computer searches still strongly established tested legally note bounced messages go given site entirety means address mail incorrect address good chance seen human recipient typically new user accounts always set local mail directory private , guaranteed finally , aware mailing lists \( email addresses everyone list \) actually publicly accessable via mail routing software mechanisms disabled potential compromises email privacy thoroughly avoided use strong end end cryptography , set caveats \( example , unscrupulous administrators may still threat encryption site shared \) see sections policies '' 2 8 \( \) liable email postings \? punishment whatever , system administrator revoke certain emailing , usenet posting reading certain groups , file transferring , remote communications , generally subset capabilities available account completely discretion local administrator procedures followed particular site , many cases crisis oriented currently virtually widespread , uniform guidelines procedures restricting use internet services , local administrators free make arbitrary decisions access today punitive measures regularly applied various situations typical scenario complaint \( \) reach system adminstrator regarding abuses user , usually necessarily preceded complaints user email , regarding person 's objectionable email postings posters usenet usually first given admonitions system administrators urged others \( debate persists endlessly many newsgroups whether also used questionable means attacking censoring unpopular opinions \) system administrators remote sites regularly cooperate severe cases abuse general , however , tradition usenet readers remarkably tolerant diverse views uses system , colorful slang helps describe alternatives patience options individual user simply advance next message \( referred \) , annoying posters \( according hacker 's dictionary , sound jerk makes end fall bottom kill file \) cases punitive actions applied , generally system administrators least likely restrict email usenet postings much commonly restricted , either individual users entire groups \( university campus \) restrictions commonly associated following threatening notes , illegal uses , e g piracy propagation copyrighted material attacks , e insulting reputation poster instead citing content message intentional extreme offensiveness inappropriate postings , esp binary files regular groups mail boxes numerous massive files major problems originate lack distinctions private official email postings users internet access via accounts businesses universities activities internet construed representative parent organizations many people put disclaimers attempt identity activities parent organizations precaution recent visible political case involves privacy electronic mail written white house staff members bush administration following guidelines company university policy possible , avoid use company email address private communication use disclaimer keep low profile \( avoid simply n't post \) avoid posting information could construed proprietary following references available ftp eff com \( see also section use \) pub academic banned 1991 pub academic banned 1992 computer material banned challenged academia 1991 1992 including usenet hierarchies pub academic cases line collection information specific computers academic freedom cases file readme detailed description items directory pub academic faq netnews liability notes university liability usenet 2 9 provide less information others identity \? public information identity account mostly available though unix utility `finger' described control information utility , specifics vary sites \( systems use f' \) provide unlimited information plan file copied directly destination technique works sites allows find even vary plan file sent signature determined environment variable signature usenet signatures stored signature file home directory providing less information online identity difficult involved one approach ask system adminstrator change delete information \( full name \) may able obtain access public account one someone unrelated personally may able remotely login \( via modem otherwise \) computers physically near tactics hiding masking online activities nothing consult man pages command default file mode generally , files shared system good safeguards within user pool little protection possible corrupt system administrators mask identity email usenet use different accounts untraceable new `anonymous posting' remailing services recently established see 2 10 sysadmin \? know \? requirements screening getting system administration job \( thereby access information system \) vary widely sites sometimes frighteningly lax , especially universities many unix systems universities largely managed background computing often general , commercial industrial sites strict qualifications background , government sites extremely strict system adminstrator \( root user \) monitor commands used times may record \( backups \) files account weeks monitor send email post usenet messages , potentially read either may access records indicating hosts using , locally elsewhere administrators sometimes employ specialized programs track activity , potentially misused 2 11 privacy \( un \) stable internet \? numerous reasons listed , privacy expectation current use internet furthermore , large parts internet funded u nsf \( national science foundation \) places certain restrictions use \( prohibiting commercial use \) high level officials government agencies may opposed emerging techniques guarantee privacy \( encryption anonymous services \) historically major threats privacy internet local perhaps common example widespread occurrences university administrators refusing carry portion usenet newsgroups labelled hierarchy usenet system , virtually restrictions propagation new group creation , frequently targeted \( although material may appear anywhere \) global point view traffic generally completely internet egregious offenders pursued example , verbatim copyrighted material \( newspaper magazine articles \) posted usenet regularity without major consequences \( email complaints may \) astonishing currently significant portions usenet traffic , less internet traffic , comprised sexually explicit digitized images almost entirely originating copyrighted material \( newsgroups regularly highest traffic \) 2 12 future privacy internet \? argue internet currently adequate appropriate level privacy others argue prototype future global networks woefully inadequate safeguards internet growing become completely global , international superhighway data , traffic inevitably entail data voice messages , postal mail , many items extremely personal nature computer items many people consider completely private \( local hard drives \) literally inches global network connections also , sensitive industrial business information exchanged networks currently volume may conceivably merge internet would agree , basic sensitive uses internet , significant mechanisms currently place ensure much privacy new standards calling uniform introduction enhanced mail' \( pem \) uses encryption technologies ensure privacy , privacy protection automatic , may significantly improve safeguards technology extremely destructive privacy \( \) overwhelmingly effective protecting \( e g encryption \) government agencies opposed unlimited privacy general , believe lawfully cases criminal conduct \( e g court authorized wiretapping \) however , powerful new technologies protect privacy computers becoming increasingly popular , provoking say ``the cat ca n't put back less terms , believe spread strong cryptography already underway socially technically unstoppable date , feasible system guarantees secure communication government oversight proposed \( two goals largely incompatible \) proposals secret keys \( denning sci crypt , example \) met hot controversy best ridicule worst , mainly concerns right privacy objections inherent feasibility electronic privacy issues , particularly proper roles networks internet , become highly visible explosive next years anonymity 3 1 `anonymity' internet \? simply stated , anonymity absence identity , ultimate privacy however , several variations simple theme person may wish consistently identified certain establish reputation area , providing pseudo anonymity person may wish completely untraceable single one way message \( sort \) , person may wish openly anonymous carry conversation others \( either known anonymous identities \) via `anonymous return address' user may wish appear actually untraceable sometimes user wishes hide sending mail \( addition message \) anonymous item may directed individuals groups user may wish access service hide signs association uses feasible internet currently tricky carry practice , tracking mechanisms inherent operating systems network protocols officials nsf government agencies may opposed uses potential abuse nevertheless , inherent large networks always guarantee certain element anonymity 3 2 `anonymity' \( un \) important internet \? anonymity another powerful tool beneficial problematic depending use arguably absence identification important presence may case many strong benefits electronic anonymity discovered , true anonymity historically difficult establish one use anonymity make personal statements colleague would sabotage relationship stated openly \( employer employee scenarios \) one use pass information evade threat direct retribution example , reporting government abuses \( economic , social , political \) bring issues light without fear stigma retaliation sensitive , personal , potentially damaging information often posted usenet groups , risky situation anonymity allows conversations carried completely independent identities participants police departments run phone services allow anonymous reporting crimes uses would straightforward network unfortunately , extortion harassment become assurances anonymity 3 3 anonymity protected internet \? chief means , alluded , masking identities email posting however , anonymous accounts \( public accounts accessable anonymous e g public telephones \) may effective well , use generally officially supported even discouraged system adminstrators nsf guidelines requirements obtaining accounts different sites institutions makes anonymous accounts generally difficult obtain public large many communications protocols inherently detrimental anonymity virtually every protocol existence currently contains information sender receiver every packet new communications protocols likely develop guarantee much higher degrees secure anonymous communication 3 4 `anonymous mail' \? one approach mail set `anonymous , activated email address , responds allocating supplying `anonymous unique person requesting \( based email address \) vary person different machine address email send anonymous mail , user sends email directed server containing final destination server message stripping identification information forwards message , appears originate anonymous server corresponding anonymous user id use anonymity mentioned another approach run remailer regular user account \( root system privileges required \) currently eric hughes hal finney hal alumni caltech edu operator runs process machine mail sent certain characteristics distinguish regular incoming mail \( typically fields header \) one implemented perl script running unix several existence currently sites software currently highly unstable may operation outside system administrator knowledge remailers n't generally support anonymous return addresses mail incorrectly addressed received operator generally user remailer disavow responsibility messages forwarded system , although actually may held liable regardless approaches several serious disadvantages weaknesses anonymous server approach requires maintaining mapping anonymous id 's real addresses must maintained indefinitely one alternative allow aliases request user , implemented yet although unlikely scenario , traffic sites could conceivably monitored , use cryptography basic protection , local administrators shut either caprice pressure local , network , government agencies unscrupulous providers services monitor traffic goes remailers currently keep logs may inspected cypherpunk approach tends highly unstable operators basically network users equipment accountable system administrators , may unaware use unsympathetic philosophy anonymity operation discovered , regarding illicit use cases , high degree trust placed anonymous server operator user currently direct route anonymity involves using smtp protocols submit message directly server arbitrary field information practice , uncommon hackers , approach used remailers , generally viewed hostility system administrators information header routing data logs network port connection information may retained used track originating site practice , generally rarely carried administrators network contact local administrators request message tracked writer punished severely \( account \) , actually happening occasionally infrequently see sections anonymous mail posting associated 3 5 `anonymous posting' \? anonymous servers established well anonymous usenet posting associated caveats \( monitored traffic , risky local circumstances , logging \) make sure test system least e g anonymous posting misc test \( however operators n't recommend many sites test messages , possibly causing anonymous server allocate anonymous ids machines \) see associated anonymous proceeding another direct route involves using nntp protocols submit message directly arbitrary field information practice , uncommon hackers , also generally viewed hostility system administrators , similar consequences see sections anonymous mail posting associated 3 6 anonymity \( un \) stable internet \? noted , many factors compromise anonymity currently available general internet community , services used great caution summarize , technology infancy current approaches , unreliable , completely trustworthy standards established troubling situations loss anonymity bugs software prevalent encountered potential bugs one anonymous remailer already allocated anonymous return addresses others passed signature information embedded messages unaltered address resolution problems resulting anonymized mail bounced remailer common forgeries anonymous server problem , possibly allowing unauthorized users potentially glean anon id email address mappings alias file use passwords infinite mail loops possible chaining remailers source code distributed , tested , refined systems , standards progressing slowly weakly field likely improve considerably without official endorsement action network agencies whole idea essentially still infancy viewed suspicion distrust many internet , seen illegitimate favorable major objection anonymity regular internet use perceived lack accountability system operators , e account restrictions resulting outside complaints system adminstrators sites threatened filter anonymous news postings generated prominent servers redistribution flows may effect encouraging server operators create less detectable headers probably least problematic approach , traditional usenet , individual users deal anonymous mail however prefer , e g ignoring filtering kill files 3 7 future anonymity internet \? new anonymous protocols effectively serve significantly increase safeguards anonymity example , mechanism routes email multiple hosts , thereby threatening privacy , also used guarantee scheme called anonymous message passed multiple anonymous servers reaching destination way generally multiple links chain security compromised encryption link makes scenario even unlikely even significantly anonymous remailers could spread internet globally local weaknesses \( corrupt governments legal wiretapping within nation \) would unlikely sacrifice overall security message tracing however , remailers run corrupt operators possible future anonymous services internet , time , highly uncertain fraught peril specific groups seem benefit significantly anonymous posting capabilities , many feel unlimited newsgroup scope anonymous posting disruptive dangerous idea discussions groups introduction unlimited group anonymity may fundamental repercussions usenet conventions distribution mechanisms moderated groups past example , part new group creation , charter may specify whether posting \( un \) welcome nevertheless , widespread introduction use anonymity may inevitable based traffic statistics , anonymous services huge demand readily available anonymity could carry significant social consequences however , use continued generally regarded subversive may confined underground ramifications widespread introduction anonymity usenet still largely unknown unclear whether provoke amounts new traffic , instead expansion , cause shift greater portion existing traffic anonymized conceivably services could play role influencing future mainstream social acceptance usenet part 1 privacy anonymity faq , obtained via anonymous ftp pit manager mit edu pub usenet news answers net privacy newsgroups news answers , sci answers , alt answers every 21 days written l detweiler ld231782 longs lance colostate edu rights reserved
ld231782 longs lance colostate edu \( l detweiler \) subject privacy anonymity internet faq \( 2 3 \) supersedes net privacy part2 gza com organization tmp enterprises lines expires 21 may 1993 04 00 06 gmt reply ld231782 longs lance colostate edu nntp posting host pad thai aktis com summary email account privacy , anonymity , file encryption , academic computer policies , relevant legislation references , eff , privacy rights issues associated use internet global networks general x last updated 1993 03 04 archive name net privacy part2 last modified 1993 3 3 version 2 1 identity , privacy , anonymity internet \( c \) 1993 l detweiler commercial use except permission author , otherwise may freely copied altered please credit quoted summary email account privacy , anonymity , file encryption , academic computer policies , relevant legislation references , eff , privacy rights issues associated use internet global networks general \( search exact section search ' ' \( underline \) next section \) part 2 \( file \) resources 4 1 unix programs related privacy \? 4 2 learn use cryptography \? 4 3 cypherpunks mailing list \? 4 4 privacy related newsgroups \? faqs \? 4 5 internet privacy enhanced mail \( pem \) \? 4 6 request comments \( rfcs \) related privacy \? 4 7 run anonymous remailer \? 4 8 references privacy email \? 4 9 email , usenet , internet use policies \? 4 10 mit anonymous message tv program \? miscellaneous 5 1 ``digital \? 5 2 ``hacker'' ``cracker'' \? 5 3 \? 5 4 `steganography' anonymous pools \? 5 5 `security obscurity' \? 5 6 \? 5 7 standards needed guard electronic privacy \? issues 6 1 electronic frontier foundation \( eff \) \? 6 2 computer professionals social responsibility \( cpsr \) \? 6 3 `operation sun steve jackson game case \? 6 4 integrated services digital network \( isdn \) \? 6 5 national research education network \( nren \) \? 6 6 fbi 's proposed digital telephony act \? 6 7 u legislation related privacy networks \? 6 8 references rights cyberspace \? 6 9 computers academic freedom \( caf \) archive \? footnotes 7 1 background behind internet \? 7 2 internet `anarchy' like english language \? 7 3 wanted list 7 4 change history resources 4 1 unix programs related privacy \? information , type `man cmd ' keyword ' unix shell prompt passwd change password finger obtain information remote user change information obtainable remote users \( sometimes f' \) chmod change rights associated file directory \( shell \) change default \( creation \) file access rights ls list rights associated files directories xhost allow disable access control particular users xwindow server last list latest user logins system list users , login idle times , w list users running xhost access control list x window client use xauth control x window server authentication signature file home directory appended usenet posts forward file used forward email accounts xauthority file used x window server authentication keys signature variable used name email usenet postings packet tracing program loosely based smi 's etherfind although none etherfind code remains originally written van jacobson , lawrence berkeley laboratory , part ongoing research project investigate improve tcp internet gateway performance current version available via anonymous ftp host ftp ee lbl gov \( currently address 128 3 254 68 \) file tcpdump tar z \( compressed unix tar file \) program subject berkeley network software copyright 4 2 learn use cryptography \? general introduction mostly theoretical cryptographic issues , especially frequently discussed sci crypt , available faq form compiled cme ellisun sw stratus com \( carl ellison \) gwyn brl mil \( doug gwyn \) smb ulysses att com \( steven bellovin \) nist \( u national institute standards technology \) publishes introductory paper cryptography , special publication 800 2 key james \( april 1991 \) available via anonymous ftp csrc ncsl nist gov \( 129 6 54 11 \) , file pub 800 2 txt also via available anonymous ftp wimsey bc ca crypt txt z crypto directory covers technical mathematical aspects encryption number theory general information found faq paul rsa via anonymous ftp rsa com pub faq ps z see file information version also available hardcopy 20 rsa laboratories , 100 marine parkway , redwood city , ca 94065 send questions faq editor rsa com phil zimmerman 's pgp \( pretty good privacy \) public domain package public key encryption available numerous sites , widespread use internet general unix based file encryption \( including email \) consult archie ftp database also see newsgroup alt security pgp mailing list requests info pgp request luc edu ripem faq marc vanheyningen mvanheyn whale cs indiana edu news answers ripem program performs privacy enhanced mail \( pem \) using cryptographic techniques rsa des allows electronic mail properties authentication \( e sent confirmed \) privacy \( e nobody read except intended recipient \) ripem written primarily mark riordan mrr scss3 cl msu edu code public domain , except rsa routines , library called rsaref licensed rsa data security inc ripem available via anonymous ftp citizens permanent residents u rsa com cd rsaref read readme file info ripem , well crypt stuff , cl msu edu , open non anonymous ftp users u canada citizens permanent residents find obtain access , ftp , cd pub crypt , read file getting access note cryptography generally well integrated email yet system required users utilize 4 3 cypherpunks mailing list \? eric hughes hughes toad com runs mailing list dedicated technological defenses privacy digital domain '' send email cypherpunks request toad com added list charter important means defense privacy encryption encrypt indicate desire privacy encrypt weak cryptography indicate much desire privacy cypherpunks hope people desiring privacy learn best defend 4 4 privacy related newsgroups \? faqs \? newsgroups alt comp acad freedom news alt comp acad freedom talk moderated unmoderated issues related academic freedom privacy universities documented examples violated privacy e g email documented examples e g limiting usenet groups local availability alt virtual reality , \( science \) fiction william gibson bruce sterling , cyberpunk mainstream alt hackers usenet network news transfer protocol \( nntp \) posting mechanisms , simple mail transfer protocol \( smtp \) , reports alt privacy general privacy issues involving , licensing , social security numbers , etc alt security comp security misc computer related security issues faq news answers alt security pgp alt security ripem dedicated discussing public domain cryptographic software packages pgp , good software developed phil zimmerman public key encryption , ripem mark riordan public key des encryption comp society privacy privacy issues associated computer technologies examples caller identification , social security numbers , credit applications , mailing lists , etc moderated comp eff news comp eff talk moderated unmoderated groups associated electronic frontier foundation started mitch kapor protecting civil constitutional rights electronic realm news admin news admin policy concerns news administrators nntp standards mechanisms news lists usenet traffic distributions frequent posters , voluminous groups , active sites , etc sci crypt considers scientific social issues cryptography examples legitimate use pgp , public key patents , des , cryptographic security , cypher breaking , etc faqs faqs asked available newsgroups answers via anonymous ftp pit manager mit edu 18 172 1 27 \( also rtfm mit edu \) directory pub usenet news answers x x archive name faq archived file others network info part1 sources information internet connect , nsf commercial vendors alt security faq computer related security issues arising alt security comp security misc , mostly unix related ssn privacy privacy issues associated use u social security number \( ssn \) public dialup internet accounts list college email part1 find email addresses undergraduate graduate students , faculty staff various colleges universities ripem faq information ripem , program public key mail encryption officially sanctioned public key partners inc , company owns patents public key cryptography unix faq faq part1 frequently asked questions unix , including information `finger' terminal spying distributions known geographic , university , network distributions 4 5 internet privacy enhanced mail \( pem \) \? internet drafts privacy enhanced mail \( pem \) describe standard revision six years official protocols email encryption standard recently stabilized implementations developed rfc 1421 enhancement internet electronic mail part message encryption authentication procedures '' j linn 104 mcimail com rfc 1422 enhancement internet electronic mail part ii certificate based key kent kent bbn com rfc 1424 enhancement internet electronic mail part iv key certification related b kaliski burt rsa com rfc enhancement internet electronic mail part iii algorithms , modes , tis com send email pem info tis com information see related information obtain rfcs 4 6 requests comments \( rfcs \) related privacy \? rfc 822 smtp , simple mail transfer protocol rfc 977 nntp , network news transfer protocol rfc 1036 standard interchange network news messages rfc 1208 glossary networking terms rfc 1207 answers internet questions rfc 1206 answers internet questions rfc privacy issues network information center databases rfc 1177 answers commonly asked internet questions , includes basic terminology internet \( tcp ip , smtp , ftp \) , internet organizations \( internet activities board \) \( internet task force \) , glossary terms also ftp eff org pub internet info internet q rfcs obtained via ftp nic ddn mil , pathname rfc txt rfc ps \( refers number rfc \) login ftp , username password nic also provides automatic mail service sites cannot use ftp address request service nic ddn mil subject field message indicate rfc number , rfc \( rfc nnnn postscript rfcs \) rfcs also obtained via ftp nis nsf net using ftp , login username password connect rfc directory \( \) file name form txt 1 \( refers number rfc \) nis also provides automatic mail service sites cannot use ftp address request nis info nis nsf net leave subject field message blank first line text message must txt 1' , nnnn replaced rfc number 4 7 run anonymous remailer \? cypherpunk remailer source soda berkeley edu pub cypherpunks directory 's written perl , relatively easy install \( administrative rights required \) karl barrus elee9sf menudo uh edu information modifications also , remailer operators mentioned amenable discussing features , problems , helping new sites become operational address points section anonymous document prior advertising service committed long term stability site avoid running one 4 8 references privacy email \? brown , bob urges users adopt policy e mail privacy '' network world \( oct 29 , 1990 \) , 7 44 2 , jeffrey reads electronic mail \? '' electronic business \( june 11 , 1990 \) 16 \( 11 \) 92 envelopes uncertainty keeping e mail scientific american , february 1993 ftp eff org pub eff papers email privacy article rights email privacy hernandez pub academic law privacy email electronic mail , edited version law school seminar paper pub eff papers email privacy biblio 2 compilation bibliography e mail privacy issues \( part 2 work \) compiled stacy b \( 12 91 \) pub eff papers email privacy research author digital research tried formalize employee privacy policy e mail divided two groups us constitutional law , california law pub eff papers company email formulating company policy access disclosure electronic mail company computer systems david r johnson john electronic mail pub cud alcor information alcor co , e mail privacy suit pub academic law privacy email email privacy search berkeley 4 9 email , usenet , internet use policies \? computer policy critiques archive collection computer policies many schools networks , run computers academic freedom group electronic frontier foundation ftp site collection also includes critiques policies gopher , archive command gopher p academic policies gopher eff org archive also accessible via anonymous ftp email ftp ftp eff org \( 192 88 144 4 \) directory academic email access , send email archive server eff org include line send acad freedom policies filenames filenames list files want file readme detailed description items directory information , make contributions , report typos contact j greenfield \( eff org \) directory contains additional policies \( critiques \) ftp eff org pub cud networks acceptable use policies various networks , including compuserve \( file \) , nsfnet \( file \) information research commercial uses see pub cud networks index pub cud networks email policies various handle issue email privacy , control , abuse , compiled hooper hooper ta cc curtin edu au pub cud schools computer use policies number schools see schools index full list description commentary pub academic faq policy best opinions best academic computer policies pub academic faq email policies universities treat email computer files private \? pub academic faq netnews writing policies users write usenet pub academic faq netnews reading policies users read usenet university remove \( restrict \) netnews newsgroups people find offensive \? pub academic faq policy guidance creating evaluating university 's academic computer policy \? 4 10 mit anonymous message tv program \? anonymous message system run mit student cable tv 36 provides anonymous medium mit students say things might otherwise find difficult , inconvenient impossible say person 's also way send fun totally random messages friends air similar anonymous message pages found many college newspapers , except 's electronic nature 's free messages posted service via email information send email athena mit edu miscellaneous 5 1 ``digital \? digital encryption authentication technologies , possibility widespread digital cash system may someday realized system utilizing codes sent users banks \( similar today 's checking system except entirely digital \) may one approach issues cryptography , privacy , anonymity closely associated transfer cash economy see article scientific american david chaum \( dec 1992 \) experimental digital bank run karl barrus elee9sf menudo uh edu based suggestions hal finney cypherpunks mailing list use server send mail ee uh edu message following text command help user host email address 5 2 ``hacker'' ``cracker'' \? terms strong feelings many meaning , especially internet general news media past person uses computers networks malicious ends \( breaking systems \) referred hacker , internet users prefer term ``cracker'' instead , ``hacker'' perceived benign intensely ambitious , curious , driven computer user explores obscure areas system , example something proud electronic pioneer patriot sense intended document see also 's faq security 5 3 \? charter cypherpunk mailing list cypherpunks assume privacy good thing wish cypherpunks acknowledge want privacy must create expect governments , corporations , large , organizations grant privacy cypherpunks know people creating privacy centuries , envelopes , closed doors , couriers cypherpunks seek prevent people speaking experiences opinions see information cypherpunk mailing list see also cryptography glossary soda berkeley edu pub cypherpunks 5 4 `steganography' anonymous pools \? closely associated encryption `steganography' techniques pursuing private \( encrypted \) communication concealing existence communication many new possibilities area introduced proliferation computer technology example , possible encode messages least significant bits images , typically addition , item posted public place \( newsgroup \) , virtually untraceable communication take place sender receiver communications electronic realm one another possibility setting mailing list individual messages get broadcast entire list individual users decode particular messages unique key anonymous pool set miron \( miron wimsey com \) experiments send email request wimsey com one following commands subject line subscribe unsubscribe help 5 5 `security obscurity' \? `security obscurity' refers attempt gain protection system weaknesses hiding sensitive information programs relating example , company may make public information software 's encryption techniques evade based knowledge another example would concealing data existence security holes bugs operating systems , reliance may made fact standard mechanism potential problems serious ``not widely ``not widely used '' argument occasionally applied mechanisms email usenet posting `security obscurity' regarded feeble technique best inappropriate ineffective worst \( also called sand \) see faq alt security remarks john perry barlow , electronic frontier foundation , directed nsa agents first international symposium national security national competitiveness held mclean , virginia dec 1 , 1992 digitized information hard stamp classified keep contained stuff incredibly leaky volatile 's almost life form ability self propagate something hits net 's something people find interesting spread like virus mind believe must simply accept idea moving environment information interesting people going get little bad thing view , may differ 5 6 \? rfc 931 describes protocol standard allows unix programs query remote user 's login name connection local communication socket \( connection type established ftp telnet sessions , example \) standard widely supported , perhaps 10 internet sites currently implement number increasing mechanism detrimental anonymity regular users cannot disable system adminstrators circumvent standard may represent trend toward greater authentication mechanisms 5 7 new standards needed guard electronic privacy \? remailing posting stable , secure , protected , officially sanctioned permitted , publicly privately operated anonymous servers official standards encryption anonymity mail usenet postings truly anonymous protocols source destination information obscured absent hidden routing mechanisms \( chaining , encrypted addresses , etc \) standards anonymous email addressing , embedding files , remailer site chaining general recognition anonymity , cryptography , related privacy shields legitimate , useful , desirable , crucial general public governments widespread use implementation technologies systems designers hardware , software , standards , implemented , ' , ' general shift use , dependence , reliance means wiretapping electronic surveillance law enforcement agencies publicity , retraction , dissolution laws government agencies opposed privacy , replaced structures dedicated strengthening protecting issues 6 1 electronic frontier foundation \( eff \) \? ftp eff org pub eff mission statement new world arising vast web digital , electronic media connect us computer based communication media like electronic mail computer conferencing becoming basis new forms community communities without single , fixed geographical location comprise first settlements electronic frontier well established legal principles cultural norms give structure coherence uses conventional media like newspapers , books , telephones , new digital media easily fit existing frameworks conflicts come law struggles define application context fundamental notions speech , property , place take profoundly new forms people sense promise threat inherent new computer communications technologies , even struggle master simply cope workplace home electronic frontier foundation established help electronic frontier make truly useful beneficial technical elite , everyone way keeping society 's highest traditions free open flow information communication eff started mitchell kapor , founder lotus software , john barlow , grateful dead rock band highly publicized endeavor organization involved legal defense steve jackson games fbi raid accompanying civil suit \( see section jackson \) foundation publishes eff news \( online \) electronically , send requests request eff org letter mitchell kapor chairman subcommittee primary jurisdiction telecommunications policy dated november 5 , 1991 , representative edward j markey mitchell kapor development national public information appreciated greatly members \( complete text ftp eff com pub pub infra 1991 12 \) need pursue policies encourage bell companies work sectors communications industry create consumer oriented , public information network please let staff know policies others computer industry believe would best serve public interest creating reasonably priced , widely available network competition open innovation rewarded also want learn lessons computer industry past ten fifteen years apply current debate structuring information communications networks future ask help gaining input computer industry subcommittee shape policies bring spirit innovation information services industry ftp eff org pub eff eff file basic information eff including goals , mission , achievements , current projects contains membership form pub eff mission statement eff mission statement pub eff historical founding announcement eff founding press release pub eff historical eff history john perry barlow 's ``not terribly brief history \( july 10 , 1990 \) eff conceived founded , major legal cases , organizational directions pub eff historical legal case summary eff legal case summary 6 2 computer professionals social responsibility \( cpsr \) \? computer professionals social responsibility working protect promote electronic civil liberties issues since 1982 group three offices \( palo alto , cambridge , washington , dc \) 20 chapters involved litigation fbi , nsa , nist , secret service u government agencies provide documentation issues operation , fbi wiretap proposal , nsa 's interference , breakup 2600 raid arlington , va nov 1992 members speak frequently front congress , state legislators public utility testify privacy , information policy , computer security , caller identification cpsr created extensive internet privacy library available via ftp , gopher , wais , email cpsr org , currently comprising largest collection privacy documents internet information , anonymous ftp cpsr org cpsr \( thanks dave cpsr org contributions \) 6 3 `operation steve jackson game case \? early 1990 's fear spread among u law enforcement agencies illicit activities involved activities credit card fraud long distance call \( see ftp eff org pub sjg general information 04 \) `operation , ' phoenix inspired crackdown may 8 , 1990 , concentrated telephone code fraud credit card abuse , followed seizure plan success bulletin board systems went america , terrifying underground swiftly depriving least criminal instruments also saddled analysts 24 , 000 floppy disks , confronted justice department prosecutors challenge gigantic nationwide hacker show trial involving highly technical issues dozens jurisdictions massive never , although isolated instances prosecution pursued movement reached texas highly publicized case illegal search seizure involving steve jackson games company austin texas march 1 , 1990 column labour lost bruce sterling bruces well sf ca us fantasy science fiction magazine early morning raid unlawful unconstitutional warrant , agents secret service conducted search sjg office left took manuscript prepared publication , private electronic mail , several computers , including hardware software sjg computer bulletin board system yet jackson business innocent crime , never suspects first place raid staged unfounded suspicion somewhere jackson 's office document compromising security 911 telephone system fbi agents involved seizure named civil suit filed behalf steve jackson games electronic frontier foundation see information eff article joe houston chronicle feb 1 , 1993 austin electronic civil rights case secret service closed thursday clear statement federal district judge sam sparks service failed conduct proper investigation notorious computer crime crackdown , went far retaining custody seized equipment secret service special agent timothy foley chicago , charge three austin computer search seizures march 1 , 1990 , led lawsuit , endured spark 's rebuke service 's poor investigation abusive computer seizure policies service seized dozens computers since crackdown began 1990 , first case challenge practice sparks grew visibly angry established austin science fiction magazine game book publisher never suspected crime , agents even marginal research establish criminal connection firm suspected illegal activities employee , determine company publisher indeed , agents testified even trained privacy protection act special secret service school computer crime long would taken , mr foley , find steve jackson games , \? asked sparks hour \? reason , march 2 , could return steve jackson games copy , floppy disk form , everything taken \? read article business week magazine picture steve jackson law abiding , tax paying citizen saying computer crime suspect \? ever occur , mr foley , seizing material could harm steve jackson economically \? foley replied , , sir , judge offered answer actually , idea anybody would actually go hire lawyer sue 200 , 000 spent electronic frontier foundation bringing case trial eff founded mitchell kapor amid civil liberties movement sparked large part secret service computer crime crackdown ftp eff org pub cud papers collection information operation epic nonprofit publishing project everything wanted know could never find pub cud papers sj resp steve jackson 's response charges 6 4 integrated services digital network \( isdn \) \? isdn high speed data communications standard utilizes existing copper telephone lines , possible inexpensive intermediate alternative laying fiber optic cable phone networks speeds involved may sufficient audio video transmission applications g v der file ftp eff org pub pub infra 1991 11 telecommunications united states crossroads regional bell operating companies free provide content , shape information networking altered network open , accessible , affordable network american public needs \? help decide question electronic frontier foundation recently presented plan congress calling immediate deployment national network based existing isdn technology , accessible anyone telephone connection , priced like local voice service believe deployment platform spur development innovative new information services , maximize freedom , competitiveness , civil liberties throughout nation eff testifying congress fcc making presentations public utility massachusetts california meeting representatives telephone companies , publishers , consumer advocates , telecommunications policy debate eff believes participants internet , pioneers electronic frontier , need voices heard critical moment automatically receive description platform details , send mail archive server eff org , following line send documents open platform overview send mail eff eff org see also introduction eff open platform proposal ftp eff org pub pub infra 1991 02 references ``digital data demand '' macworld , 2 82 \( page 224 \) vs isdn services products see comments j powers ftp eff org pub pub infra 1992 02 service rings future '' joshua , tue , jan 7 1992 implications isdn masses , written popular science style john perry barlow \( eff \) regional telephone companies \( ohio bell \) isdn test '' anecdotes mcdonald 's , barbara bush see complete text ftp eff org pub pub infra 1992 01 ftp eff org pub pub infra files 1991 11 1992 05 containing email eff public infrastructure group organized month opinions facts pros cons isdn , integrated services digital network uses isdn \( phone video , audio , etc \) japanese model alternatives isdn \( , , fiber optics \) technical specifications isdn , implementation details , cost issues , political obstacles , \( , regional bell operating companies , e g net , new england telephone \) influencing development future networks \( e g isdn nren , national research education network \) , encouraging competition \( cable tv systems \) press releases news articles letter rep e j markey kapor 6 5 national research education network \( nren \) \? nation research education network introduced legislation sen gore promote high speed data network infrastructure internet 50 times faster transmission rates bill passed house november 20 , 1991 , senate november 22 , 1991 , signed president december 9 , 1991 ftp eff org pub eff legislation nren bill text complete text house senate compromise version 272 , high performance computing act pub internet info gore bill 102nd congress 1st session text high performance computing bill sen gore pub eff legislation gore infrastructure bill text , information infrastructure technology act 1992 introduced senator gore expand federal efforts develop technologies applications high performance computing high speed networking , provide coordinated federal program accelerate development deployment advanced information infrastructure u said play favorites promoting nationwide computer network john , n times \( 18 dec 91 \) president bush 's legislation computer data ' ibm mci venture monopoly destructive fair competition innovation \? national science foundation nsfnet complete text pub pub infra 1991 12 commentary pub academic statements nren privacy cpsr privacy guidelines statement marc rotenberg , washington director computer professionals social responsibility \( cpsr \) pub internet info nren national research education network two meetings steve , senior scientist apple computer library december 17 , 1990 summary meetings exploring educational issues nren diverse members academia industry pub internet info nren feb 14 1991 essay kapor advocating advantages private national public network , specific recommendations open nren policies encouraging competition pub eff papers fyi proposed nren setup 6 6 fbi 's proposed digital telephony act \? electronic communication services private branch exchange operators shall provide within united states capability capacity government intercept wire electronic communications authorized law '' legislative watch wiretapping proposal steele magazine , feb 1993 , p 19 22 move worried privacy experts , software manufacturers telephone companies , fbi proposed legislation amend communications act 1934 make easier bureau perform electronic wiretapping proposed legislation , entitled telephony , ' would required communications service providers hardware manufacturers make systems providing law enforcement officers could intercept communications furthermore , capability would provided , communications progress , exclusive communications parties , regardless mobility target fbi 's investigation , without degradation service proposal , department justice \( doj \) keep communications products market determines products meet doj 's guidelines could result increased costs reduced competitiveness service providers equipment manufacturers , since unlikely add features may result doj rejection entire product fbi proposal suggests cost wiretapping bureau would borne service provider electronic frontier foundation organized broad coalition public interest industry groups , computer professionals social responsibilty \( cpsr \) aclu sun microsystems , oppose legislation white paper produced eff ratified coalition , entitled , analysis fbi digital telephony proposal , ' widely distributed throughout congress justice department lobbied hard final days get congress take bill congress , bill never found congressional sponsor \( therefore never officially introduced \) fbi may digital telephony 103rd congress january ftp eff org pub eff legislation fbi wiretap bill pub eff legislation new fbi wiretap bill bill ensure continuing access law enforcement content wire electronic communications authorized law purposes version 2 bill fbi changes response public response pub cud law house rep bill , telecommunications law commentary pub eff papers eff fbi analysis eff sponsored analysis fbi 's digital telephony proposal pub eff papers layman electronic communications privacy act 1986 layman 's view pub eff papers nightline wire transcript abc 's nightline may 22 , 1992 , fbi , privacy , proposed wire tapping legislation featured marc rotenberg cpsr william sessions , director fbi pub eff papers edwards letter letter director secret service us rep edwards , california , response questions raised subcommittee copy came computer professionals social responsibility washington , c pub eff papers fbi systems description information stored fbi 's computer systems 6 7 u legislation related privacy \? ftp eff org pub cud law state state computer crime laws al , ak , az , ca , co , ct , de , fl , ga , hi , ia , id , il , , md , mn , nc , nj , nm , ny , , tx , vt , va , wa , wi , wv pub cud law country current computer crime laws united states \( federal code \) , canada , , great britain pub cud law bill 618 senate bill 618 , addressing registration encryption keys government pub cud law improve improvement information access bill pub cud law monitoring senate bill 516 concerning abuses electronic monitoring workplace pub cud law us e privacy title 18 , relating computer crime email privacy pub academic law privacy electronic bill text simon 's electronic privacy bill , 516 prevent potential abuses electronic monitoring workplace '' 6 8 references rights cyberspace \? ftp eff org pub cud papers const cyberspace laurence tribe 's address first conference computers , freedom , privacy `the constitution pub cud papers denning paper presented 13th nat'l comp security conf hackers break computer dorothy e denning pub cud papers privacy privacy vs first fourth amendment michael pub cud papers rights rights expression cyberspace r e baird pub academic eff rights bill meaning electronic frontier 6 9 computers academic freedom \( caf \) archive \? caf archive electronic library information computers academic freedom run computers academic freedom group electronic frontier foundation ftp site gopher , archive command gopher p academic gopher eff org available via anonymous ftp ftp eff org \( 192 88 144 4 \) directory also available via email information email access send email archive server eff org body note include lines information , make contributions , report typos contact j greenfield \( eff org \) ftp eff org pub academic statements caf statement application academic freedom academic computers , reflecting seven months line discussion computers academic freedom covers free expression , due process , privacy , user participation pub academic books directory book references related computers academic freedom mentioned caf discussion file books readme bibliography pub academic faq archive list files available computers academic freedom archive pub academic news directory issues computers academic freedom news full list abstracts available file special best month issues named month , example , footnotes 7 1 background behind internet \? article fantasy science fiction bruce sterling bruces well sf ca us contains general nontechnical introductory notes origins internet , including role rand corporation , goal network face nuclear attack , mit , ucla , arpanet , tcp ip , nsf , nren , etc arpanet formally expired 1989 , happy victim overwhelming success users scarcely noticed , arpanet 's functions continued steadily improved use tcp ip standards computer networking global 1971 , mere twenty one years ago , four nodes arpanet network today tens thousands nodes internet , scattered forty two countries , coming line every day three million , possibly four million people use gigantic mother computer networks internet especially popular among scientists , probably important scientific instrument late twentieth century powerful , sophisticated access provides specialized data personal communication sped pace scientific research enormously internet 's pace growth early 1990s spectacular , almost ferocious spreading faster cellular phones , faster fax machines last year internet growing rate twenty percent month number machines direct connection tcp ip doubling every year since 1988 internet moving original base military research institutions , elementary high schools , well public libraries commercial sector references bowers , k , , j reynolds , k , , yuan , start bibliography general \( rfc \) , , u texas , isi , bbn , sri , mitre , august 1990 whole internet catalog user 's guide ed krol \( 1992 \) o'reilly associates , inc clear , non introduction intimidating business network literacy written humorous style krol , e , ``the hitchhikers guide \( rfc \) , university illinois urbana , september 1989 ``the user 's directory computer , tracy matrix computer networks conferencing systems worldwide john digital press bedford , \( 1990 \) massive highly technical compendium detailing mind boggling scope complexity global `` ! directory electronic mail addressing rick adams internet companion , tracy jeanne c \( 1992 \) addison wesley etiquette guide internet featuring anecdotal tales life changing internet experiences senator al gore zen art internet beginner 's guide brendan p kehoe \( 1992 \) prentice hall brief useful internet guide plenty good advice useful databases see also ftp eff com pub internet info \( thanks bruce sterling bruces well sf ca us contributions \) general cunningham , scott alan l porter networks dozen ways 'll change lives '' 26 , 1 \( january february , 1992 \) 19 22 brian , ed , building information infrastructure \( new york mcgraw hill , 1992 \) isbn 0 390 x essays information infrastructure policy design issues , research nren , future visions , information markets see table contents ftp eff org pub pub infra 1992 03 , jeffrey cross cultural electronic networking '' whole earth review \( winter \) 1990 32 35 , democracy '' technology review \( november december , 1991 \) 43 51 7 2 internet `anarchy' like english language \? according bruce sterling bruces well sf ca us internet 's `anarchy' may seem strange even unnatural , makes certain deep basic sense 's rather like `anarchy' english language nobody english , nobody owns english english speaking person , 's learn speak english properly make whatever use please \( though government provides certain subsidies help learn read write bit \) otherwise , everybody sort pitches , somehow thing evolves , somehow turns workable interesting fascinating , even though lot people earn living using exploiting teaching english , institution public property , public good much goes internet would english improved `the english language , inc ' board directors chief executive officer , president congress \? 'd probably lot fewer new words english , lot fewer new ideas 7 3 wanted list hopefully creation , compilation , information various sources regarding privacy , identity , anonymity internet author committed keeping date strengthening , effective feedback particular , following items sought short summaries rfc documents references listed , esp cpsr files data specific uses penetration rfc 931 internet traffic statistics much email \? much usenet \? costs involved \? famous obscure examples compromised privacy internet ftp site code \( code \) turn plan file named pipe sensing reacting remote knowledge mode receipt transmission network cards details infamous experiment scientist previously accepted papers prominent journal new unknown authors subsequently rejected x windows , eff , cpsr news answers commerical use document negotiable way author significant time investment email feedback ld231782 longs lance colostate edu please note saw \( newsgroup , etc \) 7 4 change history 3 3 93 v2 1 \( current \) cpsr pointer , new unix mode examples , digital telephony act , steve jackson incident , additions anonymity section , part 3 note v2 0 post sci crypt , alt privacy , news answers , alt answers , sci answers cancelled j incorrect subject line 2 14 93 v2 0 major revisions new section x windows email privacy items network security section new sections email liability issues , anonymity history responsibilities split three files many new sources added , particularly eff caf new part news admin policy 21 day automated posting starts 2 3 93 v1 0 newsgroups faqs added posted news answers future monthly posting sci crypt , alt privacy 2 1 93 v0 3 formatted 72 columns quoting etc , ' sections added cypherpunk servers use warnings unix examples \( \) posted alt privacy , comp society privacy 1 29 93 v0 2 `identity' `privacy' sections added `anonymity' expanded remailer addresses removed due lack information instability posted sci crypt 1 25 93 v0 1 originally posted cypherpunks mailing list 1 25 93 call organize list anonymous servers email ld231782 longs lance colostate edu earlier versions see also part 1 \( previous file \) 1 1 `identity' internet \? 1 2 identity \( un \) important internet \? 1 3 email address \( \) identify background \? 1 4 find somebody email address \? 1 5 identification \( un \) stable internet \? 1 6 future identification internet \? 2 1 `privacy' internet \? 2 2 privacy \( un \) important internet \? 2 3 \( \) secure internet networks \? 2 4 \( \) secure account \? 2 5 \( \) secure files directories \? 2 6 \( \) secure x windows \? 2 7 \( \) secure email \? 2 8 \( \) liable email postings \? 2 9 provide less information others identity \? 2 10 sysadmin \? know \? 2 11 privacy \( un \) stable internet \? 2 12 future privacy internet \? 3 1 `anonymity' internet \? 3 2 `anonymity' \( un \) important internet \? 3 3 anonymity protected internet \? 3 4 `anonymous mail' \? 3 5 `anonymous posting' \? 3 6 anonymity \( un \) stable internet \? 3 7 future anonymity internet \? part 3 \( next file \) 8 1 known anonymous remailing posting sites \? 8 2 responsibilities associated anonymity \? 8 3 anonymous postings \? 8 4 history behind anonymous posting servers \? 8 5 value anonymity \? 8 6 anonymous posting groups allowed \? 8 7 system operators anonymous postings \? 8 8 going anon penet fi maintained j helsingius \? part 2 privacy anonymity faq , obtained via anonymous ftp pit manager mit edu pub usenet news answers net privacy newsgroups news answers , sci answers , alt answers every 21 days written l detweiler ld231782 longs lance colostate edu rights reserved
ld231782 longs lance colostate edu \( l detweiler \) subject privacy anonymity internet faq \( 3 3 \) supersedes net privacy part3 gza com organization tmp enterprises lines 1201 expires 21 may 1993 04 00 06 gmt reply ld231782 longs lance colostate edu nntp posting host pad thai aktis com summary notes use , history , value anonymous usenet posting email remailing services x last updated 1993 03 04 archive name net privacy part3 last modified 1993 3 3 version 2 1 notes anonymity internet compiled l detweiler ld231782 longs lance colostate edu 8 1 known anonymous remailing posting sites \? 8 2 responsibilities associated anonymity \? 8 3 anonymous postings \? 8 4 history behind anonymous posting servers \? 8 5 value anonymity \? 8 6 anonymous posting groups allowed \? 8 7 system operators anonymous postings \? 8 8 going anon penet fi maintained j helsingius \? 8 1 known anonymous remailing posting sites \? currently stable anonymous remailing posting sites anon penet fi operated julf penet fi several months , system adminstrator privileges owns equipment including anonymized mail , usenet posting , return addresses \( encryption \) send mail help penet fi information hal finney contributed instruction manual cypherpunk remailers ftp site soda berkeley edu \( 128 32 149 19 \) pub cypherpunks hal 's instructions see also scripts tar z \( unix scripts aid remailer use \) arj \( msdos batch files aid remailer use \) ebrandt jarthur claremont edu anonymized mail request information address ee uh edu experimental anonymous remailer run karl barrus elee9sf menudo uh edu , encryption server request information address hal alumni caltech edu experimental remailer encryption server return addresses request information address hh soda berkeley edu hh cicada berkeley edu hh berkeley edu experimental remailer include header remailing nowhere bsu cs bsu edu experimental remailer allowing one level chaining run hall request information address phantom mead u washington edu experimental remailer encryption server `finger' site address information notes cypherpunk remailers tend unstable often running without site administrator knowledge liability issues wholly unresolved far , encryption based public key cryptography pgp software \( see question cryptography \) encryption aspects \( message text , destination address , replies \) vary sites multiple chaining , alias , address encryption mostly untested , problematic , unsupported time 8 2 responsibilities associated anonymity \? users use anonymity frivolous uses weaken seriousness usefulness capability others use anonymity provoke , harass , threaten others hide behind anonymity evade established conventions usenet , posting binary pictures regular newsgroups posting large files , bandwidth considerations remember , simply sending posting service increases network traffic avoid posting anonymously regular hierarchy usenet mostly likely place readers hierarchy preferred give much information possible posting \( e references , etc \) remember content means readers judge truth message , inaccuracies tend discredit entire message even future ones handle careful include information reveal identity enable someone deduce test system sending anonymized mail aware policies anonymous site respect prepared forfeit anonymity abuse privilege considerate respectful 's objections anonymity anonymity used utmost reservation use services provide anonymous return addresses instead courteous system operator , may invested large amounts time , personally risking account , hardware , convenience operators document thoroughly acceptable unacceptable uses introductory file sent new users coherent consistent policy stick state clearly logging monitoring occurring describe background , interest , security measures general approach totalitarian faire \? formulate plan problematic ethical situations anticipate potentially intense moral user someone service \? user posts suicidal messages service \? remember , users trust protect site introductory note , give clear examples situations take action actions \( e g warn user , limit anonymity email posting , revoke account , user , contact local administrator , etc \) describe exactly limitations software hardware address bandwidth limitations site report thoroughly bugs occurred work closely users isolate fix bugs address bugs noted `` \( \) stability document stability site long running \? compromises occured \? running \? commitment \? include disclaimer outgoing mail messages include address complaints , ideally appended every outgoing item consult lawyer liability committed long term stability site prepared deal complaints mail' addressed hardware system runs system adminstrator , consult considerate providing anonymity various groups possible , query group readers keep simplicity style outgoing message format screened effectively kill files ensure key text somewhere every header take precautions ensure security server physical network based attacks readers complain , attack , discredit poster sole reason posting anonymously , make blanket condemnations equate anonymity cowardice , anonymous traffic general mostly neutral reasons \( e g volume heavy increasing \) react anonymous information abusive posters encouraged get irate responses sometimes effective response silence notify operators severe abuses occur , piracy , harassment , extortion , etc complain postings inappropriate offend personally use kill files screen anonymous postings object idea anonymity avoid temptation proclaim anonymous postings barred particular groups need exists references see e g ftp eff org pub academic anonymity article excerpt issue individual privacy use handles accepts need system operator know name user suggests use handle analogous request withhold name letter editor article concludes set guidelines preserving right anonymous 8 3 anonymous postings \? james thomas green jgreen zeus calpoly edu try putting kill file anon h j anonymous h j search headers messages kill contain perfect wo n't kill followups note anonymous server operators capability mask anonymous postings method work far practice widespread , may become common widespread anonymous filtering 8 4 history behind anonymous posting servers \? originally anonymous posting services introduced individual , particularly volatile newsgroups , anonymity almost preferred method communication , talk abortion alt sex bondage one first one dave mack started 1988 alt sex bondage another early one us run stephanie \( enterprises \) disbanded due lack funds system provided anonymous return addresses rain com \( john \) took functions server , including anonymous alias file group chewing servers like 's tomorrow '' spurred disappearance interested researching idea , karl kleinpaste karl kleinpaste godiva nectar cs cmu edu developed system scratch six hours time idea extending server new , groups starting emerge , explored possibility partly specific request multiple users anonymity groups ``the intended advantage system specifically allow multiple group support , single anon identifier across arguably single biggest deficiency previous anon systems '' k kleinpaste posted message rec nude asking users whether anonymous service would welcome , judged consensus k kleinpaste introduced calls abusive users response complaints , used three cases nevertheless , months intense traffic eventually overwhelmed abuses server restricted , system subjected abuses point ordered facilities staff abuses started right created '' nov 1992 , johan helsingius \( julf penet fi \) set controversial anonymous site date anon penet fi based scripts c code written k kleinpaste supports anonymized mail , posting , return addresses initially wanted confine service scandinavian users expanded worldwide response international requests j helsingius policy allowing anonymous posting every usenet newsgroup met strong serious ideological opposition \( e g news adminstrators news admin policy \) relative newness recent emergence medium , abuses anonymous posters tend higher visibility abuses total commitment preservation anonymity also controversial example , highly controversial publicized case feb 1993 , anonymous user posted supposed transcript desperate crew dialogue challenger shuttle disaster via anon penet fi sci astro despite transcript posted place year earlier \( non anonymously \) actually originated poster new york news , subsequent responses consisted largely outrage poster 's use anonymity , many newsgroups original poster , using anonymous handle , later story likely fabricated , '' suggesting plausible possibility original intent provoke outrage gauge reactions authenticity story \( albeit crudely \) , free personal risk perceived association item ensuing generated queries original article late entering readers anonymous user later posted deliberately offensive comments detractors despite irate outraged complaints , even vocal opposition verbal abuse k kleinpaste eminent news operators , j helsingius largely avoided use mechanisms limit scope service march 1993 anon penet fi site best described registered 13 , 000 users initial three months operation , forwards 3000 messages day , approximately 5 usenet postings anonymized site immense popularity probably largely due capability anonymity allowed users find creative uses diverse areas previously envisioned johan helsingius subject extraordinary pressure dismantle server feb 1993 one point k kleinpaste threatened publicly organize sort group irate news operators send commands messages originating site j helsingius also alluded threats flooding server server crashed several times , least due saturation anonymous user mr helsingius reports spending 5 hours per day answering email requests alone associated service 's administration response serious threats disabled global group access temporarily one week encouraged users defend service publicly based fast moving dialogue creative suggestions , '' j helsingius identified many security weaknesses valuable new features service , currently process code development testing planning upgrading ibm compatible 386 machine 486 soon handle voluminous load considering integrating new system sophisticated functionality , including multiple email aliases , alias allocation control , public key encryption , etc sophisticated anonymous posting system set dec 1992 clunie dclunie pax tpa com au used cryptography directions \( \) server highest degree confidentiality seen far however , running public access account , shut several weeks , upon receiving requests conditions apparently ultimately originating nsf representatives clunie released software public domain recently idea newsgroup devoted government abuses received wide focused attention , group formation currently underway basic scenario group would allow people post using remailers , even establish reputations based digital signatures traffic may eventually reach reporters mainstream news media aol com attack multiple aspects project , including distributing easy read documentation posting , , encryption see also sections anonymous going anon penet fi \? '' document \( thanks carl kleinpaste karl kleinpaste godiva nectar cs cmu edu , david clunie dclunie pax tpa com au johan helsingius julf penet fi contributions \) 8 5 value anonymity \? bitnet think anonymous posts help focusing attention content one 's message sure lot anonymous posts abusive frivolous cases users find anon facility novel novelty wears stopping pranks morgan engr uky edu \( wes morgan \) n't mind seeing miscellaneous hatred prejudice racism things part nature however , notion providing anonymity 's shield ideas strong feelings , ca n't put name \( \) postings \? quite frankly , loathe communication people refuse use names dclunie pax tpa com au \( david clunie \) many seem question value anonymity say risks another individual take \? question rather conservative society live , holding certain views , making certain statements , adopting certain lifestyle , likely result public , ridicule , loss status , employment , even legal action given legal jurisdictions many contributors usenet post , knows legal ! say anonymous posters cowards stand counted perhaps one point view right detractors exercise censorship \? doug cc ysu edu \( doug sewell \) censorship expect someone speak , without cloak anonymity best lame argument tell say requires anonymity tell wishes majority non anonymous users newsgroup disregarded n't want anonymous posts anonymous users less rights others legitimate usenet participants would honor , , control messages , votes one brad clarinet com \( brad templeton \) think disadvantage caused anon posting sites n't already exist , fact make naive net users n't know post anonymously old way prone mandel netcom com \( tom mandel \) cannot speak others regard anonymous postings serious discussion pretty much worthless views hide behind veil anon hardly worth trouble reading anon penet fi \( hank \) since began posting anonymously \( show support general principles personal privacy \) subject far abuse attack ever received people seem find easier flame insult someone whose name n't know perhaps 's easier pretend person behind email address feels sting abusive comments anonymity hinder methods controlling actions people seek control naturally oppose leo bsuvc bsu edu instead making free er medium allowing posters protect anonymity , simply require posters prepared discuss sources information take heat unsubstantiated dribble seems way things currently done trentu ca \( kate gregory \) misc kids three threads going started anonymous posters one changing jobs work less hours , job sharing , woman n't want anyone current place work know thinking looking work elsewhere next woman thinking baby sometime soon n't want coworkers , friends , family etc etc know , wants advice third sex parenthood actually started people posting usual way pointed anonymous posting service might let people participate misc kids n't seem suffering harm presence anonymous posters fact seems helped etl army mil \( dan \) never real security anonymous forged postings usenet , process sufficiently inconvenient , error prone , undocumented limit use persons learned culture net hand , recent use anonymous posting service sci math seemed seemed student asking help homework problem attributed teacher , asking explanation dubious answer teaching guide says news posting broken , using anonymous service mail news gateway karl barrus elee9sf menudo uh edu argue opinions people hide behind veil anonymity worthless , people thoughts agree latter point ideal world would sitting around engaging , freely exchanging opinions effort learn ideal world nobody threaten thoughts , ridicule live world people n't agree may try harm let 's face , people n't going agree opinion matter logically try present , reasoned may sad since restrict people opinions red neoucom edu \( richard e \) consensus seems general anonymous posting service anon penet fi seems sufficiently corrosive trust civility net particular experiment ended perhaps next time question comes say tried learned harm good stopped vm urz uni heidelberg de \( alexander \) anonymous posting created major problems aside irate people \( like \? \) would rather ban anonymous pseudonymous posting altogether real men stand said comparable arguments others brought dave jpl nasa gov \( dave hayes \) primal example human nature three questions folks people really say different things based upon whether identity n't known \? people really affected people say labeled abuse \? importantly , forum prizes freedom communication enjoys , really thing freedom communication \? terry gvc com \( terry \) sigh many anon services needed \? everybody start running one soon \? 's purpose \? stands benefit n anon services , 2 n , n 2 , sudden anon services come \? better \( imho \) worse , looks like gonna get stuck things , much n't like idea \( services like becoming norm \) n't really think 's much done since 's obvious anyone wants set one bit work karl kleinpaste cs cmu edu \( karl kleinpaste \) weak reasoning freedom comes responsibility dave jpl nasa gov \( dave hayes \) responsibility n't real enforced true responsibilty comes coercion 8 6 anonymous posting groups allowed \? morgan engr uky edu \( wes morgan \) first admit hold controversial opinions indeed , i'm sure none us completely orthodox opinions however , 've received hundreds anonymous email messages last years fewer 20 reasonable posts made good motives 's getting difficult remember need anonymity abusers \( \) things truly need service \( would put good use \) i'm suggesting ban anonymous servers 've said , several situations anonymity good thing \( tm \) however , notion anonymity 's shield automatically extended every usenet discussion ridiculous opens door abuse twpierce unix amherst edu \( tim pierce \) course , one determine whether group requests service \? flat majority posters voting favor \? positive margin 100 votes \? \? one speaks newsgroup i'm convinced arguments anonymous posting service newsgroups inherently bad idea , simply 's diversion status quo since status quo previously permitted anonymous posting newsgroups , anonymous posting service would reject status quo hartman uucp \( richard hartman \) writes facist suggest newsgroup best able decide whether wants allow anonymous postings instead forced upon service administrator \? quads uchicago edu \( brian w \) service provides mechanism forwarding mail original poster since usenet readers n't know john smith jane doe except opinions address , effect anonymous posting mail replies directed minimal , except personally know poster lack anonymity could serious mechanism like liable abuse , benefits well costs must weighed limiting service alt groups , specific groups , would help want advice sensitive issues newsgroups tarl sw stratus com \( tarl neustaedter \) additional point us find technical matters profoundly offensive different forums different meanings get phone call someone wo n't identify , hang get u mail return address , goes garbage unopened someone street wearing mask , back away carefully , expecting violence technical discussion , means individual n't willing associate matter discussed , makes listening waste time leads fun psych experiments literature filled various things people anonymously wo n't otherwise including one notorious study involving torture would passed today 's ethical standards fun stuff , case fine leave us berkeley edu \( joe buck \) obviously never submitted article refereed journal , receive anonymous reviews server \( editor \) behaves much like one finland \( e g may reply editor maintain anonymity \) comparison someone wants express technical issue anonymously person approaches dark street ski mask emotionally nonsense posters pose physical threat mit edu \( j \) seems obvious default allow anonymous postings newsgroup usenet always operated principle status quo kept unless 's large number people want change someone really needs post message anonymous newsgroup usually n't done , usually find someone net n't need automated service , automated service nature incapable making judgment call necessary decide whether particular posting really needs anonymous twpierce unix amherst edu \( tim pierce \) newsgroup name , bet envision scenario involving need secrecy accurate content based filter anonymous posting could devised screen n't require secrecy , wonderful ca n't done lhp daimi aau dk \( lasse hiller e petersen \) newsgroup wants noise nuisance free , call moderation happen per newsgroup basis , general usenet ban anonymous postings course one principle moderation might keep anonymous postings , could achieved automatically would still moderation personally would prefer moderation criteria based actual content david clunie \( dclunie pax tpa com au \) group n't want receive certain posts become moderated clearly defined mechanisms non alt groups take place automated moderator excluding posts certain \( eg anonymous \) sites individuals could easily established anyone wants take draconian approach welcome good luck doubt reading group ! dave uucp \( dave \) possible need would someone posting anonymously sci group \? sure adults willing post names would want hide behind anonymous posting service \? ashamed say trying people without fear identified \? anonymous posting place certain groups anyone else needs tell groups 've another planet breathing exotic gases long karl kleinpaste cs cmu edu 's bloody fascinating \( \? \) proponents universal anon posting access ca n't seem find middle ground perception \? instant gratification syndrome come , want anon access want \? control freaks \? leo bsuvc bsu edu remember , newsgroup posters writing scientific issues anonymous discussion scientific issues leads bad science noring netcom com \( jon noring \) though many personal philosophical arguments anonymous posters , arguments compelling enough convince omni newsgroup anonymous posting banned severely restricted though cannot prove , seems like anonymous posting \( principle \) reasons personal \( read , psychological discomfort \) rather reasons related maintaining integrity usenet remember , impossible able ascertain conceivable legitimate motives anonymous posting newsgroups one normally would deem sensitive general , fear even letting newsgroup readers vote either allowing allowing anonymous posting , since priori cannot know motives legitimate posters , believe system ever instituted would inhibit posting legitimate informative posts lestat wixer cactus org \( lyle j mackey \) writes personally n't believe pseudonymous postings appropriate serious discussion area legitimate reason concealing identity , perhaps , simply 're sure want name attached n't qualify legitimate book \( oh , come legitimate purpose anonymous postings , please , enlighten \) crick ssctr bcm tmc edu \( stuart p derby \) three \( u 's \) founding fathers , madison , hamilton , jay , seemed think anonymous posting ok federalist papers originally printed new york newspapers authorship attributed wonder would find purpose legitimate \? 8 7 system operators anonymous postings \? emcguire intellection com \( ed mcguire \) would like know junk articles posted anonymous service currently discussed ideally would actually tell feed site feed articles posted anonymous service assuming c news performance release , simple way accomplish \? look learn \? dclunie pax tpa com au \( david clunie \) 's bit draconian n't \? users unanimously decided would like decided \? emcguire intellection com \( ed mcguire \) good question nobody decided definite plan , wanted technical data carl kleinpaste \( karl kleinpaste godiva nectar cs cmu edu \) position offering service , promises protection anonymity would limited basis personal opinion gets posted , basis postings disrupt smooth operation usenet obvious direct recourse would abusive individual less drastic possibilities exist software supports fire extinguisher individuals prevented posting john iastate edu \( john \) since usenet democracy \? someone wants run anonymous service , 's business want put host killfile , 's business wants blanket drop postings site , 's people site everyone ignores service , service effectively n't exist athena mit edu \( jonathan \) nntp servers allow posting anyone service net net disservice terminal servers problems open nntp servers allow people want illegal immoral unethical things internet without accountability , , public access sites country , world , allow inexpensive access usenet internet reason nntp servers allow anyone post messages , reason terminal servers allow anyone connect make outbound connections perhaps harder get internet usenet , open servers could justified , jbotz mtholyoke edu \( jurgen botz \) think points show clearly anonymous posting service great deal responsibility , towards clients towards net whole service \( imho \) set well defined rules contract clients sign , terms assured anonymity anon penet fi problem used punishing posters upsetting vague way complaining \( usually \) sysadmin organizations poster belongs \? surely approach solving problems , experience net shows users anonymous postings first write obsessively detailed grievances poster 's supervisor tranquility disturbed intrusive subversive post another anonymous postings prevent kind intimidation gandalf cyberspace org \( eric schilling \) main point would like make go revise news sw reject anon posts technical newsgroups thing , think attempt prove futile attempt modify news result changed approach anon service providers thwart change think would pointless julf penet fi \( johan helsingius \) tried stay discussion , see discussion leads rally feel like speak repeatedly made clear block users continue abuse warned many cases users taken heed warning stopped , cases even apologized public warning desired effect , blocked number users also blocked access groups readership taken vote ban anonymous postings , although feel changing newsgroup status moderated permanent solution newsgroups want formalize discussion red neoucom edu \( richard e \) mean issue request discussion ban anonymous postings moderate 4000 newsgroups server reach \? n't think , illustrates trouble server causing ! please listen consensus news administrators group newsgroup consulted letting server post messages group vm urz uni heidelberg de \( alexander \) pompous consensus news administrators maybe would like invent one sizeable number people concerned possible \( , minor extent , actual abuse server configured \) concerns respectable johan dealing \( \) rage foam mouth condemn service altogether number defend , pointing , like kate gregory , even group like misc kids benefit pseudonymous postings julf penet fi \( johan helsingius \) answered lot personal mail related server abuse , result , blocked number abusive users also withdrawn service several newsgroups users taken vote issue made comments news admin policy , partly newly implemented password feature \( emergency measure security hole \) kept really busy answering user queries last two weeks , partly feel justify service , users problem news admin policy readership rather elective , representing people whith strong interest control hartman uucp \( richard hartman \) seems rather bigoted attitude would consider group anyone wishes discuss net controlled saying interest centralized control clear indication bias perfectly welcome join discussions promote views control ohm berkeley edu whole debate lot sound fury signifying nothing , even decide ban anonymous posting servers , people conceivably could enforce control international links policy changes made cooperation , attempting dictate need persuade run services act like friendly persuasion , trying beat head stick \( especially stick n't even \) spp zabriskie berkeley edu \( steve pope \) finding bias boring friend posting penet point old guard would like keep network way always new thing , pseudonymous servers , cuts turf whine bitch , every time 's slightest abuse \( somebody 's sig long \) , try argument 'll go record saying three cheers anon servers like penet , pax , access service providers willing preserve clients privacy pox try defeat restrict stein u washington edu \( al billings \) would n't help people get rid anon postings group n't like someone says , put anon address kill file , course , get anon site going , i'm going assign fake names like instead avoid hassles 'll never know anonymous \? anne alcor concordia ca \( anne bennett \) must admit argument see value anonymous postings circumstances , yet believe strongly identified , people wish read material people wo n't identify , n't fail see good would accomplishing , indeed surmise cause many people inconvenience annoyance , hiding anonymity postings anonymous site would care justify hell get gall try prevent people effectively filtering news see fit \? dclunie pax tpa com au \( david clunie \) thought reach australia unfortunately one us sites involved us aus feed complained australian academic network site connected , anything particular , concept anonymous mail redeeming features consuming narrow bandwidth link \( ca n't argue \) stop service face consider demise service rather unfortunate , wish finnish remailer luck ! pity similar services provided us guess 's benefit constitution guarantees one freedom speech legal political system subvert name public good 8 8 going anon penet fi run j helsingius \? karl kleinpaste cs cmu edu funny , beating rest usenet head stick ok 's anon penet fi universal anon access somehow people side equation \( even arguing shut entirely , rather control applied abuses manifest \) n't allowed written johan several times last couple weeks used reply quite readily , source software originally delivered used downright prompt replying funny , 's impolite bastard n't answer mail , even consists really civil queries julf penet fi \( johan helsingius \) mail told sent one messages feb 8th feb 7th 8th server , flood mail resulted server coming crashed mail host problem abusive user sending thousands messages another user , filling users mailbox bounce messages ended mailbox , local disk well suppose message got lost hassle , tried answer much possible anon related messages get , routine mis messages complaints service average spend 4 5 hours per day answering anon related messages karl kleinpaste cs cmu edu everybody else put misuse anon penet fi \? whose definitions polite sense apply , \? universal anon access considered within realm fuzzy concept politeness first place \? think johan long since crossed line rude bastard , told private mail little ago point , deeply regret created anonymous system supporting 1 newsgroup b given code johan n't copyright , thought concept politeness good sense might follow new homes interesting johan 's ideas politeness good sense seem nearly mine could even cope universal anon access johan would willing engage abuse control , somehow seems outside range reality julf penet fi \( johan helsingius \) way convey sad upset message made , extent , understand feelings , still feels really bad running server requires getting used lot flames , mindlessly abusive hate mail much easier deal something like , respect value views opinions high degree , i'm asking sympathy , wanted know really giving views quite lot weight asked software , actually going provide service scandinavian users lot people requested keep service open international community realize ought contacted point ask feel using stuff context , really want replace remaining pieces code thet still stem system unfortunately way remove ideas structure got , really sorry results work ended used way n't approve giving lot hard thought possibility shutting server karl kleinpaste cs cmu edu think i'm feeling especially rude impolite 's good johan , 's good , n't ask greater usenet whether universal anon access good idea yes , i'm seriously rude pain ass , think 'll arm usenet death penalty , slightly modified , strategic whole site attack , tactical assault , 0 9 anon penet fi destruction outside alt , , let 's say parrot line people things like udp \( , others' postings \) years , one could ever stop , 's politeness good sense prevented fact , 8 people expressed privately desire ability arm udp ps , fact 8 ready arm udp would amusing know many people hard read , though n't see different johan 's configuration pps 've calmed fears ps 2 ready arm udp 've asked code n't sent yet one site would necessary bring anon penet fi screeching halt anyone implement udp , care politeness good sense prevents wonder long one form brings another form julf penet fi \( johan helsingius \) would trivially easy bring anon penet fi screeching halt fact happened couple times already talking threats , let make one well simple one somebody uses something like udp maliciously brings anon penet fi means , stay let users know name person ok \? somebody said thread take personal responsibility actions , right \? ccc amdahl com \( 134 atul v \) grateful appreciative service , penet fi important questions personal life career job resolved due kind help people thru similar situations return , also replied anon postings thought could make positive contribution general , anon service great , opinion , although like tool people use suggest kept alive wasting bandwidth less important saving lives , think mmm serc 3m com \( elisa j collins \) informed anonymous posting service many newsgroups turned result discussions newsgroup people abusing posting nontechnical misc newsgroup intimate topic felt required privacy received help people newsgroup , never used anonymity behave abusive , immature , unethical fashion toward anyone please , folks , believe , need service please consider point view permit admin anon penet fi turn service back thank see also part 1 \( first file \) 1 1 `identity' internet \? 1 2 identity \( un \) important internet \? 1 3 email address \( \) identify background \? 1 4 find somebody email address \? 1 5 identification \( un \) stable internet \? 1 6 future identification internet \? 2 1 `privacy' internet \? 2 2 privacy \( un \) important internet \? 2 3 \( \) secure internet networks \? 2 4 \( \) secure account \? 2 5 \( \) secure files directories \? 2 6 \( \) secure x windows \? 2 7 \( \) secure email \? 2 8 \( \) liable email postings \? 2 9 provide less information others identity \? 2 10 sysadmin \? know \? 2 11 privacy \( un \) stable internet \? 2 12 future privacy internet \? 3 1 `anonymity' internet \? 3 2 `anonymity' \( un \) important internet \? 3 3 anonymity protected internet \? 3 4 `anonymous mail' \? 3 5 `anonymous posting' \? 3 6 anonymity \( un \) stable internet \? 3 7 future anonymity internet \? part 2 \( previous file \) 4 1 unix programs related privacy \? 4 2 learn use cryptography \? 4 3 cypherpunks mailing list \? 4 4 privacy related newsgroups \? faqs \? 4 5 internet privacy enhanced mail \( pem \) \? 4 6 request comments \( rfcs \) related privacy \? 4 7 run anonymous remailer \? 4 8 references privacy email \? 4 9 email , usenet , internet use policies \? 4 10 mit anonymous message tv program \? 5 1 ``digital \? 5 2 ``hacker'' ``cracker'' \? 5 3 \? 5 4 `steganography' anonymous pools \? 5 5 `security obscurity' \? 5 6 \? 5 7 standards needed guard electronic privacy \? 6 1 electronic frontier foundation \( eff \) \? 6 2 computer professionals social responsibility \( cpsr \) \? 6 3 `operation sun steve jackson game case \? 6 4 integrated services digital network \( isdn \) \? 6 5 national research education network \( nren \) \? 6 6 fbi 's proposed digital telephony act \? 6 7 u legislation related privacy networks \? 6 8 references rights cyberspace \? 6 9 computers academic freedom \( caf \) archive \? 7 1 background behind internet \? 7 2 internet `anarchy' like english language \? 7 3 wanted list 7 4 change history part 3 privacy anonymity faq , obtained via anonymous ftp pit manager mit edu pub usenet news answers net privacy newsgroups news answers , sci answers , alt answers every 21 days written l detweiler ld231782 longs lance colostate edu rights reserved
ckincy cs umr edu \( charles kincy \) subject pgp , pem , rfc 's \( cryptography patents \) nntp posting host next4 cs umr edu organization university missouri rolla , rolla , mo lines 19 article 1993apr16 natasha portal com bob natasha portal com \( bob cain \) writes hope cynicism misplaced go ahead i'm afraid wrong every , uneasy feeling right \( wrong yet emotionally state bunch crap fact tiny disclaimer end check facts first grow strong correlation interest cryptography immaturity wonder oh , see , flame someone , tell immature , tell wrong , n't offer proof assertions really putz put shut cpk 's 80 days know wallet \?
subject fifth amendment passwords pgut1 cs aukuni ac nz \( peter gutmann \) organization computer science dept university auckland lines 19 cs uiuc edu kadie cs uiuc edu \( carl kadie \) writes crypto key disclosure issue n't come yet , current law suggests 's loser defendant 'll compelled turn key actually come \( week two \) nz 'll post outcome trial finishes \( could take months btw \) overall looks like ca n't forced reveal password , anyone provide convincing legal argument contrary \( ie actual court case \) 'd interested peter pgut1 cs aukuni ac nz p gutmann cs aukuni ac nz gutmann p kosmos wcc govt nz gen nz peter nacjack gen nz peter nacjack gen nz \( order preference one 'em 's bound work \) think ! \( \)
rob shirey shirey mitre org subject symposium net security x xxmessage id shirey mac mitre org x xxdate fri , 16 apr 93 15 27 54 gmt nntp posting host shirey mac mitre org organization mitre corporation , mclean , virginia , usa x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d20 lines 94 call papers internet society symposium network distributed system security 3 4 february 1994 , hotel , san diego , california symposium bring together people building software hardware provide network distributed system security services symposium intended interested practical aspects network distributed system security , rather theory symposium proceedings published internet society topics symposium include , limited , following design implementation services access control , authentication , availability , confidentiality , integrity , non including criteria placing services particular protocol layers design implementation security mechanisms support services encipherment key management systems , authorization audit systems , intrusion detection systems requirements architectures distributed applications network functions message handling , file transport , remote file access , directories , time synchronization , interactive sessions , remote data base management access , routing , voice video conferencing , news groups , network management , boot services , mobile computing , remote special issues problems security architecture , large systems like international internet , high speed systems like testbeds built security goals goals efficiency , reliability , interoperability , resource sharing , low cost general chair dan , lawrence livermore national laboratory program chairs russ housley , xerox special information systems rob shirey , mitre corporation program committee dave , trusted information systems tom berson , anagram laboratories matt bishop , dartmouth college ed cain , u defense information systems agency jim ellis , coordination center steve kent , bolt , beranek newman john linn , independent consultant clifford , information sciences institute michael roe , cambridge university rob rosenthal , u national institute standards technology jeff , massachusetts institute technology ravi , george mason university peter yee , u national aeronautics space administration submissions committee seeks original technical papers proposals panel discussions technical topics general interest technical papers 10 20 pages length panels include three four speakers panel proposal must name panel chair , include one page topic introduction authored chair , also include one page position summaries authored speaker technical papers panel papers appear proceedings submissions must made 16 august 1993 submissions made via electronic mail smiley mitre org submissions may either two formats ascii postscript committee unable read postscript submission , returned ascii requested therefore , postscript submissions arrive well 16 august electronic submission absolutely impossible , submissions sent via postal mail robert w shirey , mail stop mitre corporation mclean , virginia 22102 usa submissions must include internet electronic mail address postal address submission acknowledged medium received acknowledgment received within seven days , please contact either rob shirey shirey mitre org russ housley housley mclean csd xerox com , telephone mitre mclean , 703 883 authors notified acceptance 15 october 1993 instructions preparing camera ready copy proceedings postal mailed time camera ready copy must received 15 november 1993
marc tanda isis org \( marc thibault \) subject pem mime reply marc tanda isis org distribution world organization thibault friends lines 34 article nigel msen com \( edward \) writes would suggest 50 attractive mime formatted news messages day would sufficient get people thinking adding mime support news readers , esp content really worth 's problem thing mime formatted analogy , mime content labelling standard box , specification contents provides standard like minded individuals exchange mail containing agreed upon data format say , say say postscript , say sgml cheers , marc marc thibault cis 71441 , 2226 put another log marc tanda isis org nc freenet aa185 fire begin pgp public key block version 2 0 mqbnaiqxytkaaaecalfehyp0yc80s1scfvjspj5escao hihtnefrrn vuecsavh aauwpiugyv2n8n lftpnnlc42ms c8pjupykvi8abrg0i01hcmmgvghpymf1bhqg pg1hcmnadgfuzgeuaxnpcy5vcmc hlnv end pgp public key block
clipper csrc ncsl nist gov \( clipper chip announcement \) subject text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption organization national institute standards technology distribution na lines 282 note file also available via anonymous file transfer csrc ncsl nist gov directory pub nistnews via nist computer security bbs 301 948 5717 white house office press secretary immediate release april 16 , 1993 statement press secretary president today announced new initiative bring federal government together industry voluntary program improve security privacy telephone communications meeting legitimate needs law enforcement initiative involve creation new products accelerate development use advanced secure telecommunications networks wireless communications links long little dialogue private sector law enforcement community resolve tension economic vitality real challenges protecting americans rather use technology accommodate sometimes competing interests economic growth , privacy law enforcement , previous policies pitted government industry rights privacy law enforcement sophisticated encryption technology used years protect electronic funds transfer used protect electronic mail computer files encryption technology help americans protect business secrets unauthorized release personal information , also used terrorists , drug dealers , criminals state art microcircuit called clipper chip developed government engineers chip represents new approach encryption technology used new , relatively inexpensive encryption devices attached ordinary telephone scrambles telephone communications using encryption algorithm powerful many commercial use today new technology help companies protect proprietary information , protect privacy personal phone conversations prevent unauthorized release data transmitted electronically time technology preserves ability federal , state local law enforcement agencies intercept lawfully phone conversations criminals key escrow system established ensure clipper chip used protect privacy law abiding americans device containing chip two unique 2 keys , numbers needed authorized government agencies decode messages encoded device device manufactured , two keys deposited separately two key escrow data bases established attorney general access keys limited government officials legal authorization conduct wiretap clipper chip technology provides law enforcement new authorities access content private conversations americans demonstrate effectiveness new technology , attorney general soon purchase several thousand new devices addition , respected experts outside government offered access confidential details algorithm assess capabilities publicly report findings chip important step addressing problem encryption 's dual edge sword encryption helps protect privacy individuals industry , also shield criminals terrorists need clipper chip approaches provide law abiding citizens access encryption need prevent criminals using hide illegal activities order assess technology trends explore new approaches \( like key escrow system \) , president directed government agencies develop comprehensive policy encryption accommodates privacy citizens , including need employ voice data encryption business purposes ability authorized officials access telephone calls data , proper court legal order , necessary protect citizens effective timely use modern technology build national information infrastructure needed promote economic growth competitiveness american industry global marketplace need u companies manufacture export high technology products president directed early frequent consultations affected industries , congress groups advocate privacy rights individuals policy options developed 3 administration committed working private sector spur development national information infrastructure use new telecommunications computer technologies give americans unprecedented access information infrastructure high speed networks \( information superhighways \) transmit video , images , hdtv programming , huge data files easily today 's telephone system transmits voice since encryption technology play increasingly important role infrastructure , federal government must act quickly develop consistent , comprehensive policies regarding use administration committed policies protect americans' right privacy also protecting break law information provided accompanying fact sheet provisions president 's directive acquire new encryption technology also available additional details , call mat heyman , national institute standards technology , \( 301 \) 975 2758 questions answers clinton administration's telecommunications initiative q approach expand authority government agencies listen phone conversations \? clipper chip technology provides law enforcement new authorities access content private conversations americans q suppose law enforcement agency conducting wiretap drug smuggling ring intercepts conversation encrypted using device would decipher message \? would obtain legal authorization , normally court order , wiretap first place would present documentation authorization two entities responsible safeguarding keys obtain keys device used drug smugglers key split two parts , stored separately order ensure security key escrow system q run key escrow data banks \? two key escrow data banks run two independent entities point , department justice administration yet determine agencies oversee key escrow data banks q strong security device \? sure strong security \? system secure many voice encryption systems readily available today algorithm remain classified protect security key escrow system , willing invite independent panel cryptography experts evaluate algorithm assure potential users unrecognized vulnerabilities q whose decision propose product \? national security council , justice department , commerce department , key agencies involved decision approach endorsed president , vice president , appropriate cabinet officials q consulted \? congress \? industry \? going discussions congress industry encryption issues , expect discussions intensify carry review encryption policy briefed members congress industry leaders decisions related initiative q government provide hardware manufacturers \? government designed developed key access encryption microcircuits , providing microcircuits product manufacturers product manufacturers acquire microcircuits chip manufacturer produces q provides clipper chip \? mykotronx programs facility torrance , california , sell chip encryption device manufacturers programming function could licensed vendors future q buy one encryption devices \? expect several manufacturers consider incorporating clipper chip devices q administration unable find technological solution like one proposed , would administration willing use legal remedies restrict access powerful encryption devices \? fundamental policy question considered broad policy review key escrow mechanism provide americans encryption product secure , convenient , less expensive others readily available today , one piece must comprehensive approach encryption technology , administration developing administration saying , since encryption threatens public safety effective law enforcement , prohibit outright \( countries effectively done \) u saying every american , matter right , entitled unbreakable commercial encryption product false tension created assessment issue either proposition rather , concerns , fact , harmoniously balanced reasoned , balanced approach proposed clipper chip similar encryption techniques q decision indicate clinton administration 's policy toward encryption differ bush administration \? indicates understand importance encryption technology telecommunications computing committed working industry public interest groups find innovative ways protect americans' privacy , help businesses compete , ensure law enforcement agencies tools need fight crime terrorism q devices exportable \? devices use government hardware \? voice encryption devices subject export control requirements case case review export required ensure appropriate use devices true encryption devices one attractions technology protection give u companies operating home abroad mind , expect export licenses granted case case basis u companies seeking use devices secure communications abroad plan review possibility permitting wider exportability products
subject keeping mouth shut \( hard drive security \) charlie usd edu \( vince kub \) reply charlie usd edu organization university south dakota computer science dept nntp posting host charlie lines 82 article 1993apr13 cadkey com , eric cadkey com \( eric \) writes article yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu \( douglas craig holland \) writes i'm lawyer , correct i'm wrong , could considered obstruction justice , could land prison quite thing 's great secret key idea encrypted , even fbi get key , 're sol unless know magic word try force give pass phrase , say oops , forgot since burden proof still prosecution country , keep mouth shut , prove n't forget pass phrase well , i'm lawyer , 'll supply evidence may change mind note agree went case , neither change fact happen right america even three four years ago , rather nasty custody case around washington c upshot , ex husband suing visitation rights , granted woman believed man sexually molesting children \( much like allen farrow , famous \) , spirits away kids refuses tell court , denies visitation rights keeps mouth shut , happens \? sits jail almost year , contempt court , legislature passes special law limiting time person held n't passed law , 'd likely still kids new zealand , belive \( story finished , starting \) imho , reason legislature moved public sympathy woman people believed right , outraged likely happen joe random drug dealer , child molester perfectly innocent privacy lover , might something hide innocent proven guilty n't mean get walk court happy tune fbi ca n't read disk ask held contempt , ca n't make bail , etc , etc disagree totally concept holding someone based suspicion , people keep thinking wo n't happen bound get rude shock also lawyer , etc remember correctly contempt court business used order compel cooperation \( perhaps , different issue \) legitimate business court quite literally party found guilty holding court contempt , original scheme suggested would key disappear certain threatening conditions met key gone question contempt court nothing , key longer produced obstruction justice would different issue suspect question would reason protect data eyes \( however \) think charge would hard nut make perhaps time lawyer step clear \? vincent kub , saints always judged guilty proven charlie usd edu innocent geo orwell 14 w cherry st 2 good die one , dakota done anything deserving death phone fax \( 605 \) 624 king begin pgp public key block version 2 2 end pgp public key block
hooper ccs queensu ca \( andy hooper \) subject text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption organization queen 's university , kingston distribution na lines 3 n't clipper trademark fairchild semiconductor \? andy hooper
tcmay netcom com \( timothy c may \) subject text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 distribution na lines 21 well , seems obvious professor denning last fall key escrow trial balloon raised ! need end end encryption schemes bypass government approved system way , clipper name n't already used clipper processor intergraph \? doubt 're ones making chip , name conflict may present tim may timothy c may crypto anarchy encryption , digital money , tcmay netcom com anonymous networks , digital pseudonyms , zero 408 688 5409 knowledge , reputations , information markets , w e aptos , ca black markets , collapse governments higher power 2 756839 public key pgp mailsafe available
jad nsa hp com \( john \) subject compress crypt foo des e k foo distribution sci lines 12 organization networked systems architecture bunch questions encryption scheme referenced subject message relative data privacy provided sequence compared straight des \? addition compression encrypting make cyphertext significantly harder crack using current methods straight des \? would running crypt des provide greater data privacy \? important remove \( constant \) compress header encryption \? thank , net , wisdom jad john jad nsa hp com
jim rand org \( jim gillogly \) subject clipper chip crypto key escrow summary keywords encryption , wiretap , clipper , key escrow , mykotronx organization banzai institute lines 292 nntp posting host mycroft rand org document anonymous ftp directory nist looks like shoe dropped jim gillogly trewesday , 25 astron r 1993 , 17 00 note file also available via anonymous file transfer csrc ncsl nist gov directory pub nistnews via nist computer security bbs 301 948 5717 white house office press secretary immediate release april 16 , 1993 statement press secretary president today announced new initiative bring federal government together industry voluntary program improve security privacy telephone communications meeting legitimate needs law enforcement initiative involve creation new products accelerate development use advanced secure telecommunications networks wireless communications links long little dialogue private sector law enforcement community resolve tension economic vitality real challenges protecting americans rather use technology accommodate sometimes competing interests economic growth , privacy law enforcement , previous policies pitted government industry rights privacy law enforcement sophisticated encryption technology used years protect electronic funds transfer used protect electronic mail computer files encryption technology help americans protect business secrets unauthorized release personal information , also used terrorists , drug dealers , criminals state art microcircuit called clipper chip developed government engineers chip represents new approach encryption technology used new , relatively inexpensive encryption devices attached ordinary telephone scrambles telephone communications using encryption algorithm powerful many commercial use today new technology help companies protect proprietary information , protect privacy personal phone conversations prevent unauthorized release data transmitted electronically time technology preserves ability federal , state local law enforcement agencies intercept lawfully phone conversations criminals key escrow system established ensure clipper chip used protect privacy law abiding americans device containing chip two unique 2 keys , numbers needed authorized government agencies decode messages encoded device device manufactured , two keys deposited separately two key escrow data bases established attorney general access keys limited government officials legal authorization conduct wiretap clipper chip technology provides law enforcement new authorities access content private conversations americans demonstrate effectiveness new technology , attorney general soon purchase several thousand new devices addition , respected experts outside government offered access confidential details algorithm assess capabilities publicly report findings chip important step addressing problem encryption 's dual edge sword encryption helps protect privacy individuals industry , also shield criminals terrorists need clipper chip approaches provide law abiding citizens access encryption need prevent criminals using hide illegal activities order assess technology trends explore new approaches \( like key escrow system \) , president directed government agencies develop comprehensive policy encryption accommodates privacy citizens , including need employ voice data encryption business purposes ability authorized officials access telephone calls data , proper court legal order , necessary protect citizens effective timely use modern technology build national information infrastructure needed promote economic growth competitiveness american industry global marketplace need u companies manufacture export high technology products president directed early frequent consultations affected industries , congress groups advocate privacy rights individuals policy options developed 3 administration committed working private sector spur development national information infrastructure use new telecommunications computer technologies give americans unprecedented access information infrastructure high speed networks \( information superhighways \) transmit video , images , hdtv programming , huge data files easily today 's telephone system transmits voice since encryption technology play increasingly important role infrastructure , federal government must act quickly develop consistent , comprehensive policies regarding use administration committed policies protect americans' right privacy also protecting break law information provided accompanying fact sheet provisions president 's directive acquire new encryption technology also available additional details , call mat heyman , national institute standards technology , \( 301 \) 975 2758 questions answers clinton administration's telecommunications initiative q approach expand authority government agencies listen phone conversations \? clipper chip technology provides law enforcement new authorities access content private conversations americans q suppose law enforcement agency conducting wiretap drug smuggling ring intercepts conversation encrypted using device would decipher message \? would obtain legal authorization , normally court order , wiretap first place would present documentation authorization two entities responsible safeguarding keys obtain keys device used drug smugglers key split two parts , stored separately order ensure security key escrow system q run key escrow data banks \? two key escrow data banks run two independent entities point , department justice administration yet determine agencies oversee key escrow data banks q strong security device \? sure strong security \? system secure many voice encryption systems readily available today algorithm remain classified protect security key escrow system , willing invite independent panel cryptography experts evaluate algorithm assure potential users unrecognized vulnerabilities q whose decision propose product \? national security council , justice department , commerce department , key agencies involved decision approach endorsed president , vice president , appropriate cabinet officials q consulted \? congress \? industry \? going discussions congress industry encryption issues , expect discussions intensify carry review encryption policy briefed members congress industry leaders decisions related initiative q government provide hardware manufacturers \? government designed developed key access encryption microcircuits , providing microcircuits product manufacturers product manufacturers acquire microcircuits chip manufacturer produces q provides clipper chip \? mykotronx programs facility torrance , california , sell chip encryption device manufacturers programming function could licensed vendors future q buy one encryption devices \? expect several manufacturers consider incorporating clipper chip devices q administration unable find technological solution like one proposed , would administration willing use legal remedies restrict access powerful encryption devices \? fundamental policy question considered broad policy review key escrow mechanism provide americans encryption product secure , convenient , less expensive others readily available today , one piece must comprehensive approach encryption technology , administration developing administration saying , since encryption threatens public safety effective law enforcement , prohibit outright \( countries effectively done \) u saying every american , matter right , entitled unbreakable commercial encryption product false tension created assessment issue either proposition rather , concerns , fact , harmoniously balanced reasoned , balanced approach proposed clipper chip similar encryption techniques q decision indicate clinton administration 's policy toward encryption differ bush administration \? indicates understand importance encryption technology telecommunications computing committed working industry public interest groups find innovative ways protect americans' privacy , help businesses compete , ensure law enforcement agencies tools need fight crime terrorism q devices exportable \? devices use government hardware \? voice encryption devices subject export control requirements case case review export required ensure appropriate use devices true encryption devices one attractions technology protection give u companies operating home abroad mind , expect export licenses granted case case basis u companies seeking use devices secure communications abroad plan review possibility permitting wider exportability products jim gillogly trewesday , 25 astron r 1993 , 17 01
jim rand org \( jim gillogly \) subject secret algorithm clipper chip crypto key escrow keywords encryption , wiretap , clipper , key escrow , mykotronx organization banzai institute lines 19 nntp posting host mycroft rand org may well look one piece time paragraph demonstrate effectiveness new technology , attorney general soon purchase several thousand new devices addition , respected experts outside government offered access confidential details algorithm assess capabilities publicly report findings means n't planning make public , done des says sci crypt faqs , 's way going achieve level comfort clipper finally des ca n't actually get hands bits watch flow around even best experts n't going think everything look long took biham shamir get handle good des know 's still learn jim gillogly trewesday , 25 astron r 1993 , 17 10
ptrei bistromath mitre org \( peter trei \) subject fifth amendment passwords nntp posting host bistromath mitre org organization mitre corporation lines 67 article cs uiuc edu kadie cs uiuc edu \( carl kadie \) writes magnus acs ohio state edu \( andrew hall \) writes postive someone correct wrong , n't fifth also cover forced actions self incriminating \? mike godwin mnemonic eff org , posted permission carl , could produce key safe , happens , evidence convict stored crypto key disclosure issue n't come yet , current law suggests 's loser defendant 'll compelled turn key test compelled self incrimination whether material disclosed tends example gave , safe key testimonial value ergo , disclosed compulsion \( e g , subpoena \) moreover , government always disclosure crypto key compelling disclose key price using fact disclosure evidence case course , use whatever discover result disclosure mike lets carry one step suppose text key conclusive evidence crime encrypted material evidence find scenario like made scans peanuts strips encrypt key phrase comic police haul seize system find encrypted file cp whats file \? take fifth cp 's keyphrase file \? take fifth judge reveal keyphrase disagree , i'm judge honor , revealing keyphrase , 's right , would tend incriminate breaking laws , independent may may encrypted file judge grant immunity whatever may learned key keyphrase confess deliberately evading copyright file encoded keyphrase contains illegal scans copyrighted peanuts strips judge cp oh get \? i'm saying wo n't , ca n't \( even n't \) , legal mechanism use \? crossposting misc legal \? peter trei ptrei mitre org
bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de \( vesselin bontchev \) subject text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption reply bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de organization virus test center , university hamburg distribution na lines 268 clipper csrc ncsl nist gov \( clipper chip announcement \) writes president today announced new initiative bring federal government together industry voluntary program improve security privacy telephone communications meeting legitimate needs law enforcement nice formulation introduction first encryption devices built trapdoors like feds wanted long little dialogue private sector law enforcement community resolve tension economic vitality real challenges protecting americans rather use technology accommodate sometimes competing interests economic growth , privacy law enforcement , previous policies pitted government industry rights privacy law enforcement bla bla protect electronic mail computer files encryption technology help americans protect business secrets unauthorized release personal information , also used terrorists , drug dealers , criminals indeed , current proposal nothing prevent latter ordinary telephone scrambles telephone communications using encryption algorithm powerful many commercial use today n't say much many incredibly weak encryption algorithms commercial use today new technology help companies protect proprietary information , protect privacy personal phone conversations prevent unauthorized release data transmitted electronically except government time technology preserves ability federal , state local law enforcement agencies intercept lawfully phone conversations criminals nope criminals wo n't stupid enough use new chip , 'll use something secure technology provides means intercept phone conversations people stupid enough use agencies decode messages encoded device device manufactured , two keys deposited separately two key escrow data bases established attorney general access keys limited government officials legal authorization conduct wiretap , government keys n't matter much one two hands clipper chip technology provides law enforcement new authorities access content private conversations americans correct , however , provide americans false sense privacy devices addition , respected experts outside government offered access confidential details algorithm assess capabilities publicly report findings screening public , cannot trusted people trust des even today , examinations parts design kept secret chip important step addressing problem encryption 's dual edge sword encryption helps protect privacy individuals industry , also shield criminals terrorists need clipper chip approaches provide law abiding citizens access encryption need prevent criminals using hide illegal activities order assess technology 'll use different technology hide illegal activities law abiding citizens , trust government misuse abilities decrypt conversations privacy citizens , including need employ voice data encryption business purposes except government need u companies manufacture export high technology products huh \? later says new technology export restricted since encryption technology play increasingly important role infrastructure , federal government must act quickly develop consistent , comprehensive policies regarding use administration committed policies protect americans' right privacy also protecting break law short , new technology 1 \) protect law abiding citizen 's privacy casual snooper cannot 1 \) protect government , decides misuse ability decrypt conversations 2 \) protect criminals succeed break new encryption scheme steal keys , bribe people handle , etc 3 \) prevent criminals using secure encryption communication q approach expand authority government agencies listen phone conversations \? clipper chip technology provides law enforcement new authorities access content private conversations americans correct however , provide much privacy claims q run key escrow data banks \? two key escrow data banks run two independent entities point , department justice administration yet determine agencies oversee key escrow data banks two candidates nsa mafia q strong security device \? sure strong security \? system secure many voice encryption systems readily available today , trust us algorithm remain classified protect security key escrow security obscurity system , willing invite independent panel cryptography experts evaluate algorithm assure potential users unrecognized vulnerabilities 's entirely open public examination , cannot trusted besides , prove devices used examination ones built phones \? q whose decision propose product \? national security council , justice department , nsa fbi \? q consulted \? congress \? industry \? going discussions congress industry encryption issues , expect discussions intensify carry review encryption policy briefed members congress industry leaders decisions related initiative forget academia \? q government provide hardware manufacturers \? government designed developed key access encryption microcircuits , providing microcircuits product manufacturers product manufacturers acquire microcircuits chip manufacturer produces n't smell \? q provides clipper chip \? mykotronx programs facility torrance , california , sell chip encryption device manufacturers programming function could licensed vendors future like mafia \? q administration unable find technological solution like one proposed , would administration willing use legal remedies restrict access powerful encryption devices \? main question , buried end \? fundamental policy question considered broad policy review key escrow 'll see mechanism provide americans encryption product secure , convenient , less expensive others readily available today , one trust us administration saying , since encryption threatens public safety effective law enforcement , prohibit outright \( countries short , decide outlaw strong crypto , 'll tell effectively done \) u saying every american , matter right , entitled unbreakable commercial encryption product since us government seems consider strong crypto munitions since us constitutions guarantees right every american bear arms , every american entitled , matter right , unbreakable commercial encryption product \? indicates understand importance encryption technology telecommunications computing committed working industry public interest groups find innovative ways protect americans' privacy , help businesses compete , ensure law enforcement agencies tools need fight crime terrorism bullshit proposed technology provides false sense security , encryption devices built capabilities breaking encryption , prevent criminals use strong crypto , step outlaw strong crypto q devices exportable \? devices use government hardware \? voice encryption devices subject export control requirements case case review export required ensure appropriate use devices optimist believed new administration leave export controls strong crypto devices \? ok , i'm american , 's business , could n't resist comment whole plot looks 's , americans , fight rights regards , vesselin p time david sternlight pop claim new system great vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center , university hamburg tel 49 40 54715 224 , fax 49 40 54715 226 fachbereich informatik agn pgp 2 2 public key available request vogt koelln strasse 30 , rm 107 c e mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de 2000 hamburg 54 , germany
hal cco caltech edu \( hal finney \) subject text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 45 distribution na nntp posting host alumni caltech edu key question whether non clipper encryption made illegal administration saying , since encryption threatens public safety effective law enforcement , prohibit outright \( countries effectively done \) u saying every american , matter right , entitled unbreakable commercial encryption product false tension created assessment issue either proposition rather , concerns , fact , harmoniously balanced reasoned , balanced approach proposed clipper chip similar encryption techniques clear middle ground implied statements say americans right clipper encryption , unbreakable encryption implies , ultimately , non clipper strong encryption must become illegal \( aside , n't language jarring \? talk balance 're talking taking away people 's right communications privacy \? \) although article emphasizes voice communication , data mail encryption mentioned well sophisticated encryption technology used years protect electronic funds transfer used protect electronic mail computer files privacy citizens , including need employ voice data encryption business purposes looks like worst nightmares raised dorothy denning 's proposals coming true government continues course , imagine see strong cryptography made illegal encryption programs disk files email , well software allow encrypted voice communications , distributed underground people learn hide fact protecting privacy 's shocking frightening see actually happening hal finney hal alumni caltech edu
karn servo qualcomm com \( phil karn \) subject battle joined nntp posting host servo qualcomm com organization qualcomm , inc lines 290 looks like dorothy denning 's wrong headed ideas gotten administration even sooner feared 's time make sure hear side story , hear loudly ! phil forwarded message subject text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption note file also available via anonymous file transfer csrc ncsl nist gov directory pub nistnews via nist computer security bbs 301 948 5717 white house office press secretary immediate release april 16 , 1993 statement press secretary president today announced new initiative bring federal government together industry voluntary program improve security privacy telephone communications meeting legitimate needs law enforcement initiative involve creation new products accelerate development use advanced secure telecommunications networks wireless communications links long little dialogue private sector law enforcement community resolve tension economic vitality real challenges protecting americans rather use technology accommodate sometimes competing interests economic growth , privacy law enforcement , previous policies pitted government industry rights privacy law enforcement sophisticated encryption technology used years protect electronic funds transfer used protect electronic mail computer files encryption technology help americans protect business secrets unauthorized release personal information , also used terrorists , drug dealers , criminals state art microcircuit called clipper chip developed government engineers chip represents new approach encryption technology used new , relatively inexpensive encryption devices attached ordinary telephone scrambles telephone communications using encryption algorithm powerful many commercial use today new technology help companies protect proprietary information , protect privacy personal phone conversations prevent unauthorized release data transmitted electronically time technology preserves ability federal , state local law enforcement agencies intercept lawfully phone conversations criminals key escrow system established ensure clipper chip used protect privacy law abiding americans device containing chip two unique 2 keys , numbers needed authorized government agencies decode messages encoded device device manufactured , two keys deposited separately two key escrow data bases established attorney general access keys limited government officials legal authorization conduct wiretap clipper chip technology provides law enforcement new authorities access content private conversations americans demonstrate effectiveness new technology , attorney general soon purchase several thousand new devices addition , respected experts outside government offered access confidential details algorithm assess capabilities publicly report findings chip important step addressing problem encryption 's dual edge sword encryption helps protect privacy individuals industry , also shield criminals terrorists need clipper chip approaches provide law abiding citizens access encryption need prevent criminals using hide illegal activities order assess technology trends explore new approaches \( like key escrow system \) , president directed government agencies develop comprehensive policy encryption accommodates privacy citizens , including need employ voice data encryption business purposes ability authorized officials access telephone calls data , proper court legal order , necessary protect citizens effective timely use modern technology build national information infrastructure needed promote economic growth competitiveness american industry global marketplace need u companies manufacture export high technology products president directed early frequent consultations affected industries , congress groups advocate privacy rights individuals policy options developed 3 administration committed working private sector spur development national information infrastructure use new telecommunications computer technologies give americans unprecedented access information infrastructure high speed networks \( information superhighways \) transmit video , images , hdtv programming , huge data files easily today 's telephone system transmits voice since encryption technology play increasingly important role infrastructure , federal government must act quickly develop consistent , comprehensive policies regarding use administration committed policies protect americans' right privacy also protecting break law information provided accompanying fact sheet provisions president 's directive acquire new encryption technology also available additional details , call mat heyman , national institute standards technology , \( 301 \) 975 2758 questions answers clinton administration's telecommunications initiative q approach expand authority government agencies listen phone conversations \? clipper chip technology provides law enforcement new authorities access content private conversations americans q suppose law enforcement agency conducting wiretap drug smuggling ring intercepts conversation encrypted using device would decipher message \? would obtain legal authorization , normally court order , wiretap first place would present documentation authorization two entities responsible safeguarding keys obtain keys device used drug smugglers key split two parts , stored separately order ensure security key escrow system q run key escrow data banks \? two key escrow data banks run two independent entities point , department justice administration yet determine agencies oversee key escrow data banks q strong security device \? sure strong security \? system secure many voice encryption systems readily available today algorithm remain classified protect security key escrow system , willing invite independent panel cryptography experts evaluate algorithm assure potential users unrecognized vulnerabilities q whose decision propose product \? national security council , justice department , commerce department , key agencies involved decision approach endorsed president , vice president , appropriate cabinet officials q consulted \? congress \? industry \? going discussions congress industry encryption issues , expect discussions intensify carry review encryption policy briefed members congress industry leaders decisions related initiative q government provide hardware manufacturers \? government designed developed key access encryption microcircuits , providing microcircuits product manufacturers product manufacturers acquire microcircuits chip manufacturer produces q provides clipper chip \? mykotronx programs facility torrance , california , sell chip encryption device manufacturers programming function could licensed vendors future q buy one encryption devices \? expect several manufacturers consider incorporating clipper chip devices q administration unable find technological solution like one proposed , would administration willing use legal remedies restrict access powerful encryption devices \? fundamental policy question considered broad policy review key escrow mechanism provide americans encryption product secure , convenient , less expensive others readily available today , one piece must comprehensive approach encryption technology , administration developing administration saying , since encryption threatens public safety effective law enforcement , prohibit outright \( countries effectively done \) u saying every american , matter right , entitled unbreakable commercial encryption product false tension created assessment issue either proposition rather , concerns , fact , harmoniously balanced reasoned , balanced approach proposed clipper chip similar encryption techniques q decision indicate clinton administration 's policy toward encryption differ bush administration \? indicates understand importance encryption technology telecommunications computing committed working industry public interest groups find innovative ways protect americans' privacy , help businesses compete , ensure law enforcement agencies tools need fight crime terrorism q devices exportable \? devices use government hardware \? voice encryption devices subject export control requirements case case review export required ensure appropriate use devices true encryption devices one attractions technology protection give u companies operating home abroad mind , expect export licenses granted case case basis u companies seeking use devices secure communications abroad plan review possibility permitting wider exportability products
grady netcom com \( 1016 2ef221 \) subject 2 2 source problems organization capriccioso x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 19 yes error need diff standard console h console c supplied symantec 's think c 5 0 4 specially modified one works 2 2 added two diffs end signature file pub grady netcom com please download via anonymous ftp , using sed \( oops \) , cutting pasting , fix em one mac geniuses please port , \? grady grady netcom com 2ef221 15 e2 ad d3 d1 c6 f3 fc 58 ac f7 3d 4f 01 1e 2f
danny weitzner djw eff org subject inventing crypto policy \? eff statement x xxmessage id harding eff org x xxdate fri , 16 apr 93 21 47 01 gmt nntp posting host harding eff org organization electronic frontier foundation x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d17 lines 122 april 16 , 1993 initial eff analysis clinton privacy security proposal clinton administration today made major announcement cryptography policy effect privacy security millions americans first part plan begin comprehensive inquiry major communications privacy issues export controls effectively denied people easy access robust encryption , law enforcement issues posed new technology however , eff concerned administration already reached conclusion one critical part inquiry , public comment discussion allowed apparently , administration going use leverage get telephone equipment vendors adopt voice encryption standard developed national security agency called clipper chip 80 bit , split key escrowed encryption scheme built chips manufactured military contractor two separate escrow agents would store users' keys , required turn law enforcement upon presentation valid warrant encryption scheme used classified , chips available manufacturer communications products proposal raises number serious concerns first , administration adopted solution conducting inquiry nsa developed clipper chip may secure product vendors developers may better schemes furthermore , rely government sole source clipper chips rather , independent chip manufacturers able produce chipsets based open standards second , algorithm cannot trusted unless tested yet , administration proposes keep chip algorithm classified eff believes standard adopted ought public open public confidence security standard open independent , expert scrutiny third , use use split key , dual escrowed system may prove reasonable balance privacy law enforcement needs , details scheme must explored publicly adopted give people confidence safety keys \? disclosure keys third party waive individual 's fifth amendment rights subsequent criminal inquiries \? many questions administrations proposal raised fails answer sum , administration shown great sensitivity importance issues planning comprehensive inquiry digital privacy security however , clipper chip solution ought considered part inquiry , adopted discussion even begins details proposal escrow 80 bit key divided two escrow agents , hold 40 bits key manufacturer communications device would required register keys two independent escrow agents key tied device , however , person using upon presentation valid court order , two escrow agents would turn key parts law enforcement agents according presidential directive issued , attorney general asked identify appropriate escrow agents administration suggested one non law enforcement federal agency \( perhaps federal reserve \) , one non governmental organization could chosen , agreement identity agents yet classified algorithm possibility back doors administration claims back doors means government others could break code without securing keys escrow agents president told back doors classified algorithm order prove , administration sources interested arranging star crypto cracker team come , security arrangement , examine algorithm trap doors results investigation would made public clipper chipset designed produced sole source , secret contract national security agency two private firms vlsi nsa work plan underway four years manufacturing contract let 14 months ago government market driver order get market moving , show government believes security system , feds first big customers product users include fbi , secret service , vp al gore , maybe even president today 's commerce department press briefing , number people asked question , though would private organization individual adopt classified standard independent security freedom trap doors \? comprehensive policy inquiry administration also announced commence inquiry policy issues related privacy protection , encryption , law enforcement items considered include export controls encryption technology fbi 's digital telephony proposal appears inquiry conducted national security council unfortunately , however , presidential directive describing inquiry classified public involvement process promised , terms yet specified information contact jerry berman , executive director \( eff org \) daniel j weitzner , senior staff counsel \( djw eff org \) full text press releases fact sheets issued administration available eff 's ftp site danny weitzner senior staff counsel , eff 1 202 544
grady netcom com \( 1016 2ef221 \) subject text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption organization capriccioso x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 distribution na lines 54 eager hear legal theory behind restricting exchange cryptographic data encrypted messages , given first theory behind regulating personal encryption one 's personal thoughts feelings seems even less perhaps make treaty , say , iceland , restrict crypto paraphernalia good end run around constitution happen \( treaties someone pointed force law land like bill rights \) amendment 1 congress shall make law respecting establishment religion , prohibiting free exercise thereof abridging freedom speech , press right people peaceably assemble , petition government redress grievances amendment 2 well regulated militia , necessary security free state , right people keep bear arms , shall infringed amendment 3 soldier shall , time peace house , without consent owner , time war , manner prescribed law amendment 4 right people secure persons , houses , papers , effects , unreasonable searches seizures , shall violated , warrants shall issue , upon probable cause , supported oath affirmation , particularly describing place searched , persons things seized amendment 5 person shall held answer capital , otherwise infamous crime , unless indictment grand jury , except cases arising land naval forces , militia , actual service time war public danger shall person subject offence twice put jeopardy life limb shall compelled criminal case witness , deprived life , liberty , property , without due process law shall private property taken public use , without compensation well least minutes privacy grady netcom com 2ef221 15 e2 ad d3 d1 c6 f3 fc 58 ac f7 3d 4f 01 1e 2f
comtech com \( jimmy r \) subject shortest path algorithm status \? organization comtech labs inc lines 25 expected run time \( factor 10 \) 486dx 50 using best known algorithm finding shortest path solution cube randomly chosen position \? read faq followed recent discussion cube n't believe question answered notice specifically looking algorithm finds shortest path , solution seems underlying assumption program would need brute force search though 10 20 positions seems unreasonably pessimistic assumption want know someone significantly improved ideas approach problem , spend much time developing wanted know someone else already done work administrivia posted three groups attempted set followup rec puzzles seems place continue discussion cross post summary becomes appropriate email replies gladly accepted jimmy comtech com
bob natasha portal com \( bob cain \) subject pgp , pem , rfc 's \( cryptography patents \) organization oce graphics usa x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl7 lines 22 charles kincy \( ckincy cs umr edu \) wrote article 1993apr16 natasha portal com bob natasha portal com \( bob cain \) writes hope cynicism misplaced go ahead i'm afraid wrong every , uneasy feeling right \( wrong yet emotionally state bunch crap fact tiny disclaimer end check facts first grow strong correlation interest cryptography immaturity wonder oh , see , flame someone , tell immature , tell wrong , n't offer proof assertions really putz put shut provide proof wish private name , dickhead putz cain
clipper csrc ncsl nist gov \( clipper chip announcement \) subject white house public encryption management fact sheet organization national institute standards technology distribution na lines 94 note following released white house today conjunction announcement clipper chip encryption technology fact sheet public encryption management president approved directive public encryption management directive provides following advanced telecommunications commercially available encryption part wave new computer communications technology encryption products scramble information protect privacy communications data preventing unauthorized access advanced telecommunications systems use digital technology rapidly precisely handle high volume communications advanced telecommunications systems integral infrastructure needed ensure economic competitiveness information age despite benefits , new communications technology also frustrate lawful government electronic surveillance sophisticated encryption effect united states exported abroad , used thwart foreign intelligence activities critical national interests past , possible preserve government capability conduct electronic surveillance legitimate law enforcement national security interests , time protecting privacy civil liberties citizens encryption technology improves , require new , innovative approaches area communications encryption , u government developed microcircuit provides privacy encryption substantially robust current government standard , also permits escrowing keys needed unlock encryption system escrowing keys allow government gain access encrypted information appropriate legal authorization assist law enforcement government agencies collect decrypt , legal authority , electronically transmitted information , hereby direct following action taken installation government developed microcircuits attorney general united states , representative , shall request manufacturers communications hardware incorporates encryption install u government developed key escrow microcircuits products fact law enforcement access escrowed keys concealed american public appropriate steps shall taken ensure existing future versions key escrow microcircuit made widely available u communications hardware manufacturers , consistent need ensure security key escrow system making decision , intend prevent private sector developing , government approving , microcircuits algorithms equally effective assuring privacy secure key escrow system key escrow attorney general shall make arrangements appropriate entities hold keys key escrow microcircuits installed communications equipment case , key holder must agree strict security procedures prevent unauthorized release keys keys shall released government agencies established authority acquire content communications encrypted devices containing microcircuits attorney general shall review legal sufficiency procedures agency establishes authority acquire content communications procurement use encryption devices secretary commerce , consultation appropriate u agencies , shall initiate process write standards facilitate procurement use encryption devices fitted key escrow microcircuits federal communications systems process sensitive unclassified information expect process proceed schedule permit final standard within six months directive attorney general procure utilize encryption devices extent needed preserve government 's ability conduct lawful electronic surveillance fulfill need secure law enforcement communications , attorney general shall utilize funds department justice asset forfeiture super surplus fund effect purchase
kadie cs uiuc edu \( carl kadie \) subject eff initial eff analysis clinton privacy security proposal organization university illinois , dept comp sci , urbana , il lines 107 article comp org eff news , online 5 06 carl april 16 , 1993 initial eff analysis clinton privacy security proposal clinton administration today made major announcement cryptography policy effect privacy security millions americans first part plan begin comprehensive inquiry major communications privacy issues export controls effectively denied people easy access robust encryption well law enforcement issues posed new technology however , eff concerned administration already reached conclusion one critical part inquiry , public comment discussion allowed apparently , administration going use leverage get telephone equipment vendors adopt voice encryption standard developed national security agency called clipper chip 80 bit , split key escrowed encryption scheme built chips manufactured military contractor two separate escrow agents would store users' keys , required turn law enforcement upon presentation valid warrant encryption scheme used classified , chips available manufacturer communications products proposal raises number serious concerns first , administration appears adopting solution conducting inquiry nsa developed clipper chip may secure product vendors developers may better schemes furthermore , rely government sole source clipper chips rather , independent chip manufacturers able produce chipsets based open standards second , algorithm trusted unless tested yet administration proposes keep chip algorithm classified eff believes standard adopted ought public open public confidence security standard open independent , expert scrutiny third , use split key , dual escrowed system may prove reasonable balance privacy law enforcement needs , details scheme must explored publicly adopted give people confidence safety keys \? disclosure keys third party waive individual 's fifth amendment rights subsequent criminal inquiries \? sum , administration shown great sensitivity importance issues planning comprehensive inquiry digital privacy security however , clipper chip solution ought considered part inquiry , adopted discussion even begins details proposal escrow 80 bit key divided two escrow agents , hold 40 bits key upon presentation valid warrant , two escrow agents would turn key parts law enforcement agents likely attorney general asked identify appropriate escrow agents administration suggested one non law enforcement federal agency , perhaps federal reserve , one non governmental organization , agreement identity agents yet key registration would done manufacturer communications device key tied device , person using classified algorithm possibility back doors administration claims back door means government others could break code without securing keys escrow agents president told back doors classified algorithm order prove , administration sources interested arranging star crypto cracker team come , security arrangement , examine algorithm trap doors results investigation would made public government market driver order get market moving , show government believes security system , feds first big customers product users include fbi , secret service , vp al gore , maybe even president information contact jerry berman , executive director daniel j weitzner , senior staff counsel carl kadie represent organization kadie cs uiuc edu
cme ellisun sw stratus com \( carl ellison \) subject clipper crypto organization stratus computer , software engineering lines 26 distribution inet nntp posting host ellisun sw stratus com keywords crypto , eff sent response white house 0005895485 mcimail com \( white house \) received nice , automatic reply noting , passing , included snail address , would get reply due course care , reply 1 yes , let 's protect voice network 2 privately developed crypto always available always let 's think law enforcement given fact hope legislate 3 needs crypto system designer met clipper chip want freely export uses algorithms \( like des rsa \) already freely available destination country disclaimer opinions expressed , course carl ellison cme sw stratus com stratus computer inc m3 2 bkw tel \( 508 \) 460 2783 55 fairbanks boulevard marlborough 01752 1298 fax \( 508 \) 624 7488
strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) subject secret algorithm clipper chip crypto key escrow keywords encryption , wiretap , clipper , key escrow , mykotronx organization dsi uscrpac lines 57 though may argue nose camel , 's worth noting government proposal limited scrambled telephony used purpose , extend electronic mail file encryption , improvement current mass produced standard civilian technology , exceptions , limited easy break note big issue feds continued ability wiretap go deep end long secure crypto e mail files , let 's focus one question asked release whether proposal limited telephony , government intends expand though share many concerns expressed , find proposal less threatening many others , since right americans secure telephony , jerk pair clip leads goat eavesdrop would also plug security hole cellular cordless phones reading lines , infer system highly secure without access keys would meet needs u businesses confronted rich powerful adversaries , including french japanese security services rich japanese companies allows nsa make available better stuff protecting law enforcement needs legitimate u corporations trust nsa , would delighted high security system certified , even price depositing keys escrow see difficulty creating reliable escrow corporations secrets attorneys every day week , system worked pretty well point view fair starting point concerns need addressed , including reliability escrows return get access high security crypto many suggested des systems may breakable nsa hence others similarly skilled endowed least good possibility \( checked \) proposed system breakable n't , trapdoors , government get keys pursuant legitimate court order thus protect legitimate communications economic adversaries , still able eavesdrop crooks pursuant court order discussing , let 's try avoid , personal attacks noise previous threads substantive technical issue , personal remarks place discussion david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted
news weeg uiowa edu \( lee \) subject inventing crypto policy \? eff statement summary 40 bit key half way small organization project panda , inc lines 23 article 1993apr16 eff org danny weitzner djw eff org writes 80 bit key divided two escrow agents , hold 40 bits key presumably , key split one group controls privacy key , would gain access agents however , one agent wishes break crypto without cooperation agent , 40 bit key going stand way brute force attack agency \( example , nsa \) hold one two key halves , n't imagine really need half key start listening point \? grin \( imply , , like idea rest system \) lee , leave final word director , project panda twang ''
jay fenton fenton kaleida com subject detect use illegal cipher \? organization kaleida labs , inc lines 10 distribution world nntp posting host kaleida com x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d12 x xxmessage id kaleida com x xxdate fri , 16 apr 93 14 12 23 gmt government tell encryption method one using without able decode traffic \? e , order accuse using unauthorized strong encryption technique would take keys escrow , run ciphertext draw blank imagine ciphertext exhibiting certain statistical characteristics might give clue encryption technique used , enough give handle however , scheme shapes percieved properties ciphertext could thwart
mike avon demon co uk \( mike h \) subject another data hiding scheme distribution world organization boring reply mike avon demon co uk x mailer simple news 1 90 \( ka9q dis 1 19 \) lines 23 article 1993apr13 colorado edu bear tigger cs colorado edu writes since price 1 44 3 5 floppies still high last years store old data , old file times , public filesystem casual observer may miss hd especially accidently cover something \) bear giles bear cs colorado edu fsl noaa gov done already ! uk atari st box shipped 360k disks first years later 720k disks order make life less complicated , many freebie disks mags double formatted like side 0 disk 360k could read st also flip side program would swap sides around side 1 became side 0 mike \( mike avon demon co uk \)
arc leland stanford edu \( andrew richard conway \) subject text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa lines 94 article gap caltech edu hal cco caltech edu \( hal finney \) writes key question whether non clipper encryption made illegal administration saying , since encryption threatens public safety effective law enforcement , prohibit outright \( countries effectively done \) u saying every anyone know countries \? american , matter right , entitled unbreakable commercial encryption product false tension created assessment issue either proposition rather , concerns , fact , harmoniously balanced reasoned , balanced approach proposed clipper chip similar encryption techniques clear middle ground implied statements say americans right clipper encryption , unbreakable encryption implies , ultimately , non clipper strong encryption must become illegal following logical consequences \( \) using code designed obscure easily breakable illegal , including \( \) using code words \( ii \) speaking language english \( iii \) ever refering implicitly events known everyone , eg hi john last night \? listener knows , may code pick drugs ok last night \? code ok blow pentagon midnight \( iv \) mentioning anything could perfectly understood average person education \( v \) words one syllable \( vi \) speaking heavy accent could people used \( vii \) books inner meaning animal farm \( aside , n't language jarring \? talk balance 're talking taking away people 's right communications privacy \? \) yes looks like worst nightmares raised dorothy denning 's proposals coming true government continues course , imagine see strong cryptography made illegal encryption programs disk files email , well software allow encrypted voice communications , distributed underground people learn hide fact protecting privacy wonderful borrow converts message eg meet 11 30 bomb white house bring dynamite apparently \( relatively \) message message example output message \) 's shocking frightening see actually happening could happen anywhere shocking could happen country arrogance call free \( 1 \) write congress person plain text \( 2 \) write congress person encrypted text \( optional \) \( 3 \) send random congressperson \( 4 \) send random keystrokes accross us boundaries , keep spooks busy trying decode \( 5 \) write encryption algorithms \( 6 \) n't buy clipper products p ca n't work us government n't want sell overseas , rather easy us interests decode , make perfect tool industrial military espionage anyone stupid enough buy false sense security notice mention anywhere safety non americans disclaimer opinions mine alone , represent anyone elses nothing particularly want hide moment though consider right able use whatever method coding data like high list priorities andrew conway arc leland stanford edu phone usa 415 497
eifrig cs jhu edu \( jonathan eifrig \) subject pgp , pem , rfc 's \( cryptography patents \) organization johns hopkins university cs department lines 70 article 1993apr16 natasha portal com bob natasha portal com \( bob cain \) writes check facts first grow strong correlation interest cryptography immaturity wonder hmmm check facts good advice let 's check mr cain 's facts bit , shall \? charles kincy \( ckincy cs umr edu \) wrote limitation let guess n't use code way pkp rsa n't like providing secure communications average citizen exactly purpose know anything nothing preventing average citizen using , selling fact unlawful distribute code implementing rsa without license pkp , whether one charging furthermore , use rsa , research purposes allowed us patent law , similarly unlawful therefore , average citizen cannot use rsa encrypt message traffic us without license pkp licensed , freely available product us uses rsa encryption rsaref \( hence ripem \) , least far aware know another , please post say yeah , right 're willing pay mucho big bucks use routines tell n't sound reasonable say full shit negotiated license bucks incredibly reasonable upfront charge sliding scale depending capitalization startup ca n't afford ca n't afford start first place people insist making unequivocal statements know nothing fact last contact rsa data security , inc guy trying sell license \( unsolicited , might add \) cost 15k plus 2 5 percent royalties suppose matter opinion whether terms count mucho bucks incredibly reasonable either way , however , definitely falls routines tell \( use \) n't guess pkp rsa interested big bucks maybe agenda \? secure communications government agents , perhaps \? considered treatment paranoia \? government single biggest thorn rsa 's side fact restrictions \( yet ! \) use cryptography us law , although beginning look like change widespread use rsa cryptography us pkp 's patents mr cain , please shut get facts straight better whole world destroyed dust free man deny one desires , italian anarchist poet jack eifrig \( eifrig cs jhu edu \) johns hopkins university , c dept
avg rodan uu net \( vadim \) subject inventing crypto policy \? eff statement organization uunet technologies inc , falls church , va lines 18 nntp posting host rodan uu net article 1993apr16 eff org danny weitzner djw eff org writes 80 bit key divided two escrow agents , hold 40 bits key somehow started doubt technical competence people designed system earth split 80 bit key 40 bit parts keep escrow separately \( 40 bit large volumes data voice links produce relatively easy break \) simply could keep 80 bit sequences n \( n 2 \) independent places xor partial keys get actual key \( n 1 sequences obviously selected randomly nth actual key xor ed random sequences \) \( conspiracy \? 1 2 \) vadim
karn servo qualcomm com \( phil karn \) subject keeping mouth shut \( hard drive security \) nntp posting host servo qualcomm com reply karn chicago qualcomm com organization qualcomm , inc lines 37 article sunfish usd edu , charlie usd edu \( vince kub \) writes , original scheme suggested would key disappear certain threatening conditions met key gone question contempt court nothing , key longer produced getting rid keys actually pretty easy automatically communications link , opposed storage keys retained somehow long owner wants able retrieve data right way communications security generate random session key diffie hellman , use destroy 's gone , 's getting back , way decrypt recordings conversation make sure n't attacked man middle , authenticate dh exchanges secure phone displaying dh key compare verbally phone nice simple , relies user awareness plus inability man middle duplicate users' voices better way authenticate exchanges rsa since 'd never use rsa actual encryption , compromising rsa secret key would allow someone future conversation , even revoke public key would still able decrypt recordings prior conversations session keys destroyed i'm convinced government 's secure phones \( stu iii \) must work neat , eh \? phil
pcw access digex com \( peter \) subject old key registration idea organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 25 nntp posting host access digex net okay , let 's suppose nsa nist registered key system becomes standard i'm able buy system local radio shack every phone comes built chip government key every phone call go buy phone register key 's prevent swapping phones friend buying used phone garage sale \? secret registered keys became government comes listen , receive secret key registered name n't right one leads conjecture 1 \) system n't secure two master keys work phones country part registering keys bogus 2 \) system vulnerable simple phone swapping attacks like criminals quickly figure go town either case , think need look bit deeper \) mw
rz uni karlsruhe de \( thomas \) subject white house public encryption management fact sheet organization university karlsruhe , germany lines 26 distribution na nntp posting host rz uni karlsruhe de mime version 1 0 content type text plain charset iso 8859 1 content transfer encoding 8bit clipper csrc ncsl nist gov \( clipper chip announcement \) writes president approved directive public encryption management directive provides following exported abroad , used thwart foreign intelligence activities critical national interests attorney general united states , representative , shall request manufacturers communications hardware incorporates encryption install u government developed key escrow microcircuits products quite interesting us administration intend persuade non us governments let nsa eavesdrop \? u companies install chips communication systems sold abroad without customer 's consent , \? thomas , rz uni karlsruhe de , bitnet joy engineering find straight line double logarithmic diagram
camelot bradley edu \( robert crawford \) subject detect use illegal cipher \? nntp posting host camelot bradley edu organization bradley university lines 20 jay fenton fenton kaleida com writes government tell encryption method one using without able decode traffic \? e , order accuse using unauthorized strong encryption technique would take keys escrow , run ciphertext draw blank thinking , also 's quite possible system transmits , clear , serial number device used way start tap , get serial number , use warrant first tap get key tap someone 's apparently using encryption , n't find prefix , 'll assume 's un authorized encryption scheme may generous robert crawford camelot bradley edu
philip charon cto citicorp com \( philip \) subject clipper stuff organization citicorp lines 15 nntp posting host charon cto citicorp com x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 yet , description general principles behind clipper proposal example , public key system private key system \? latter , n't see system could work \( given keys tied device person \) , escrowed 80 bit keys split two 40 bit chunks would guess availability one 40 bit chunks reasonable key search machine , would allow read traffic i'm suggesting deliberate weakness system , make think course , easily fixable giving two 80 bit chunks could x generate real 80 bit key philip
cme ellisun sw stratus com \( carl ellison \) subject white house public encryption management fact sheet organization stratus computer , software engineering lines 25 distribution na nntp posting host ellisun sw stratus com article c5lgaz 250 dove nist gov clipper csrc ncsl nist gov \( clipper chip announcement \) writes procurement use encryption devices attorney general procure utilize encryption devices extent needed preserve government 's ability conduct lawful electronic surveillance fulfill need secure law enforcement communications , attorney general shall utilize funds department justice asset forfeiture super surplus fund effect purchase talk adding insult injury , one , believe use civil forfeiture abolished decent administration , continued instead , looks like ill gotten gain used help pay wiretap equipment disclaimer opinions expressed , course carl ellison cme sw stratus com stratus computer inc m3 2 bkw tel \( 508 \) 460 2783 55 fairbanks boulevard marlborough 01752 1298 fax \( 508 \) 624 7488
palmer larc nasa gov \( michael palmer \) subject text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption organization nasa langley research center , hampton , va lines 56 nntp posting host larc nasa gov article dove nist gov clipper csrc ncsl nist gov \( clipper chip announcement \) writes q suppose law enforcement agency conducting wiretap drug smuggling ring intercepts conversation etc great nice choice bad guys convince everyone bad unrestricted encryption use child molester instead \? course , word suspect never used , guess people already convicted operating drug ring jail cells question instead \? q suppose law enforcement agency conducting wiretap political opponent senior administration official intercepts conversation kinda changes interpretation event , n't \? yes , presence clipper chip change things , give people talking phone false sense security , also give federal law enforcement agencies justification deny use strong encryption methods inconvenient dang , 's supposed inconvenient \( impossible \) 's sure way make sure abuses minimized still allowing legitimate law enforcement access q strong security device \? sure strong security \? system secure many voice encryption systems readily available today algorithm remain classified protect security key escrow system , willing invite independent panel cryptography experts evaluate algorithm assure potential users unrecognized vulnerabilities uh huh sure predict within two months \( weeks \? \) chip 's debut , full technical details posted sci crypt impact security key escrow system , 've lied cryptosystem worth salt withstand light public scrutiny , way sure algorithm unrecognized vulnerabilities unless half world trying break decade even , gotta careful michael palmer man crazy writes secret palmer larc nasa gov way one conceal ripem key server vulgar roger bacon , 1220
karn servo qualcomm com \( phil karn \) subject inventing crypto policy \? eff statement nntp posting host servo qualcomm com reply karn chicago qualcomm com organization qualcomm , inc lines 17 article rodan uu net , avg rodan uu net \( vadim \) writes somehow started doubt technical competence people designed system earth split 80 bit key 40 bit parts keep escrow separately \( 40 bit large volumes data voice links produce relatively easy break \) simply could keep 80 bit sequences n \( n 2 \) independent places xor partial keys get actual key \( n 1 sequences obviously selected randomly nth actual key xor ed random sequences \) without real technical details , 's hard answer question suppose already two 40 bit parts produce 40 bits real key material \? maybe 're using exportable version rc2 \? \) phil
subject text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption oleg gd cs csufresno edu \( oleg \) distribution na organization computer science departement california state university nntp posting host gd cs csufresno edu reply clipper csrc ncsl nist gov 's message fri , 16 apr 1993 15 17 33 gmt lines 299 article dove nist gov clipper csrc ncsl nist gov \( clipper chip announcement \) writes article found today comp security misc 'll send reply separate post comp eff org guys get original text fun ! \( oleg relay version vms news v6 17 9 92 vax vms v5 5 2 site nic csu net path nic csu net ! csus edu ! netcom com ! netcomsv ! decwrl ! uunet ! dove ! csrc ncsl nist gov ! clipper newsgroups comp security misc clipper csrc ncsl nist gov \( clipper chip announcement \) date fri , 16 apr 1993 15 17 33 gmt sender news dove nist gov distribution na organization national institute standards technology lines 280 note file also available via anonymous file transfer csrc ncsl nist gov directory pub nistnews via nist computer security bbs 301 948 5717 white house office press secretary immediate release april 16 , 1993 statement press secretary president today announced new initiative bring federal government together industry voluntary program improve security privacy telephone communications meeting legitimate needs law enforcement initiative involve creation new products accelerate development use advanced secure telecommunications networks wireless communications links long little dialogue private sector law enforcement community resolve tension economic vitality real challenges protecting americans rather use technology accommodate sometimes competing interests economic growth , privacy law enforcement , previous policies pitted government industry rights privacy law enforcement sophisticated encryption technology used years protect electronic funds transfer used protect electronic mail computer files encryption technology help americans protect business secrets unauthorized release personal information , also used terrorists , drug dealers , criminals state art microcircuit called clipper chip developed government engineers chip represents new approach encryption technology used new , relatively inexpensive encryption devices attached ordinary telephone scrambles telephone communications using encryption algorithm powerful many commercial use today new technology help companies protect proprietary information , protect privacy personal phone conversations prevent unauthorized release data transmitted electronically time technology preserves ability federal , state local law enforcement agencies intercept lawfully phone conversations criminals key escrow system established ensure clipper chip used protect privacy law abiding americans device containing chip two unique 2 keys , numbers needed authorized government agencies decode messages encoded device device manufactured , two keys deposited separately two key escrow data bases established attorney general access keys limited government officials legal authorization conduct wiretap clipper chip technology provides law enforcement new authorities access content private conversations americans demonstrate effectiveness new technology , attorney general soon purchase several thousand new devices addition , respected experts outside government offered access confidential details algorithm assess capabilities publicly report findings chip important step addressing problem encryption 's dual edge sword encryption helps protect privacy individuals industry , also shield criminals terrorists need clipper chip approaches provide law abiding citizens access encryption need prevent criminals using hide illegal activities order assess technology trends explore new approaches \( like key escrow system \) , president directed government agencies develop comprehensive policy encryption accommodates privacy citizens , including need employ voice data encryption business purposes ability authorized officials access telephone calls data , proper court legal order , necessary protect citizens effective timely use modern technology build national information infrastructure needed promote economic growth competitiveness american industry global marketplace need u companies manufacture export high technology products president directed early frequent consultations affected industries , congress groups advocate privacy rights individuals policy options developed 3 administration committed working private sector spur development national information infrastructure use new telecommunications computer technologies give americans unprecedented access information infrastructure high speed networks \( information superhighways \) transmit video , images , hdtv programming , huge data files easily today 's telephone system transmits voice since encryption technology play increasingly important role infrastructure , federal government must act quickly develop consistent , comprehensive policies regarding use administration committed policies protect americans' right privacy also protecting break law information provided accompanying fact sheet provisions president 's directive acquire new encryption technology also available additional details , call mat heyman , national institute standards technology , \( 301 \) 975 2758 questions answers clinton administration's telecommunications initiative q approach expand authority government agencies listen phone conversations \? clipper chip technology provides law enforcement new authorities access content private conversations americans q suppose law enforcement agency conducting wiretap drug smuggling ring intercepts conversation encrypted using device would decipher message \? would obtain legal authorization , normally court order , wiretap first place would present documentation authorization two entities responsible safeguarding keys obtain keys device used drug smugglers key split two parts , stored separately order ensure security key escrow system q run key escrow data banks \? two key escrow data banks run two independent entities point , department justice administration yet determine agencies oversee key escrow data banks q strong security device \? sure strong security \? system secure many voice encryption systems readily available today algorithm remain classified protect security key escrow system , willing invite independent panel cryptography experts evaluate algorithm assure potential users unrecognized vulnerabilities q whose decision propose product \? national security council , justice department , commerce department , key agencies involved decision approach endorsed president , vice president , appropriate cabinet officials q consulted \? congress \? industry \? going discussions congress industry encryption issues , expect discussions intensify carry review encryption policy briefed members congress industry leaders decisions related initiative q government provide hardware manufacturers \? government designed developed key access encryption microcircuits , providing microcircuits product manufacturers product manufacturers acquire microcircuits chip manufacturer produces q provides clipper chip \? mykotronx programs facility torrance , california , sell chip encryption device manufacturers programming function could licensed vendors future q buy one encryption devices \? expect several manufacturers consider incorporating clipper chip devices q administration unable find technological solution like one proposed , would administration willing use legal remedies restrict access powerful encryption devices \? fundamental policy question considered broad policy review key escrow mechanism provide americans encryption product secure , convenient , less expensive others readily available today , one piece must comprehensive approach encryption technology , administration developing administration saying , since encryption threatens public safety effective law enforcement , prohibit outright \( countries effectively done \) u saying every american , matter right , entitled unbreakable commercial encryption product false tension created assessment issue either proposition rather , concerns , fact , harmoniously balanced reasoned , balanced approach proposed clipper chip similar encryption techniques q decision indicate clinton administration 's policy toward encryption differ bush administration \? indicates understand importance encryption technology telecommunications computing committed working industry public interest groups find innovative ways protect americans' privacy , help businesses compete , ensure law enforcement agencies tools need fight crime terrorism q devices exportable \? devices use government hardware \? voice encryption devices subject export control requirements case case review export required ensure appropriate use devices true encryption devices one attractions technology protection give u companies operating home abroad mind , expect export licenses granted case case basis u companies seeking use devices secure communications abroad plan review possibility permitting wider exportability products
bear kestrel fsl noaa gov \( bear giles \) subject know keys ask \? \( clipper \) organization forecast systems labs , noaa , boulder , co usa lines 24 may stupid question , government know keys ask \? owners required register phones , faxes , modems , etc , inform government moved different phone number \? public \? identification \( national health care id , perhaps \) required purchasing clipper phone \? chip transmit identifying information start conversation \? identification could used automatically log calls \? \( phone company keeps records , information would accessable well placed van near microwave relay station \) raises question two phones agree communications encryption key something derived information exchanged start conversation hence eavesdropper \? bear giles bear fsl noaa gov
brad clarinet com \( brad templeton \) subject text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption organization clarinet communications corp distribution na lines 37 government interesting real fear comes voluntary program , thus harder us object surface strategy business one rather legal one pushing get standard place , secret standard , get standard drive competitors market legal sell better , encryption n't registered keys , difficult , thus plan phone companies see , clipper chip phones 'll able talk cellular company , phones ports follow standard already announced clipper chip encryption product government marketed hard get major vendors use chips get enough market share , rule thus little market systems ca n't tapped police public n't concerned , freely calls anybody old tv listen today ! wo n't pay big extra bucks proprietary phones secure police well , people buy phones , work proprietary phones , market small phones expensive unless made numbers large enough sell cheap , mob buy means fbi want track customer lists better encryption phones , reason person would want one evade police interesting brad templeton , clarinet communications corp sunnyvale , ca 408 296 0366
matt wardsgi med yale edu \( matt healy \) subject illegal wiretaps \( nntp posting host med yale edu organization yale u genetics lines 33 article 3702 204 uupcb ssr com , dick ssr com \( dick \) wrote pk perhaps need telephony equivalent anonymous remailer telephone network \? back prohibition days \( alcohol , \) understand device called popular means thwart tracing telephone calls connected two phone lines back room otherwise business conceptual today 's anonymous email remailer old pre version call decision several vendors sold call 've got couple basement used redirect office phone home number n't feel like going office 'd quite easy generate anonymous version call 18 months ago , heard report npr 900 number 1 900 sto , placing untraceable calls call , bong tone dial number want call told npr interviewer nothing short court order \( 'd fight \) would make release records matt healy pretend network administrator lab net pretends work matt wardsgi med yale edu
ld231782 lance colostate edu \( l detweiler \) subject open letter mr clinton nntp posting host lance colostate edu organization colorado state university , fort collins , co 80523 lines 123 i'm quite astonished , shocked , appalled serious frontal assault emerging american freedoms clinton administration government agency legitimate role whatsoever regulating cryptography tantamount regulating speech , blatantly unconstitutional perhaps rename year honor illustrious proposal let crappy chip live infamy , adminstration receive great shame discredit bizarre outraged tax money used develop technology restrict freedoms far beyond reasonable measures u government full disobedience serious threat liberties , call everyone interest sensible government resist defy proposal administration seem understand merely subservient instrument implement public , hence anyone involved proposal respect wholly negligent remiss performing lawful duty encryption technology help americans protect business secrets unauthorized release personal information , also used terrorists , drug dealers , criminals seems u diplomatic communications tappable u n whenever countries produce warrant u n fact , think stop paying nsa billions dollars year produce unbreakable codes reason actions violate international law \( hope mr clinton shrewd enough recognize sarcasm satire n't , 's modest reasonable proposal , find merit nevertheless \) cryptography neutral technology everybody strong cryptography \( including policemen , , businessmen , , thugs \) , sustainable equilibrium anything less anti arrangement , intrinsically antithetical american freedoms , guaranteed collapse weight inherent n't need compromise issues freedom long little dialogue private sector law enforcement community resolve tension economic vitality real challenges protecting americans long government demonstrated increasingly hostile serious obstacle economic vitality protecting americans since encryption technology play increasingly important role infrastructure , federal government must act quickly develop consistent , comprehensive policies regarding use administration committed policies protect americans' right privacy also protecting break law possible federal government develop , comprehensive period even grandiose miracle thing possible , would efficient way deprive american citizens fundamental inalienable rights administration committed leaving private industries alone , esp issue government legitimate role regulating content communications law enforcement agencies must prepared forfeit surveillance bludgeon soon inevitably disarmed q administration unable find technological solution like one proposed , would administration willing use legal remedies restrict access powerful encryption devices \? laws constitutionally sound , equivalent veiled threat , n't appreciate kind extortion tends others radicalism trade threats threats , violation violation administration saying , since encryption threatens public safety effective law enforcement , prohibit outright \( countries effectively done \) administration say , would find reckless outrageous disregard essential , established , entrenched , explicit constitutional privacy guarantees administration would legal standing whatsoever action would illegal criminal , wholly disregarded vast segments population u saying every american , matter right , entitled unbreakable commercial encryption product u , comprised vast majority people committed preserving privacy face increasingly totalitarian government , saying take chips give nsa employees christmas bonuses run algorithm computers damn well please , make chips please , send bit pattern data highways please try stop us , gradually abruptly dissolved nothingness privacy vs law enforcement false tension created assessment issue either proposition outright denning lie two aims privacy surveillance intrinsically fundamentally incompatible , work nsa think otherwise americans discover ways , use technology , preserve inalienable forgotten freedoms slowly eroded away increasingly distant government ld231782 longs lance colostate edu
tcmay netcom com \( timothy c may \) subject clipper infringement intergraph 's name \? organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 lines 28 besides infringement civil liberties \( subject post \) , name clipper chip seems clipper chip intergraph originally designed team fairchild semiconductor , clipper 32 bit risc microprocessor still used workstations , notably intergraph , supplier cad tools intergraph acquired clipper product line fairchild sold national semiconductor several years back first saw clipper chip announcement , immediately thought article referring clipper chip know seems grounds intergraph sue , i'm lawyer 'd say i'm , n't want incriminate laws new regime tim may timothy c may crypto anarchy encryption , digital money , tcmay netcom com anonymous networks , digital pseudonyms , zero 408 688 5409 knowledge , reputations , information markets , w e aptos , ca black markets , collapse governments higher power 2 756839 public key pgp mailsafe available
matt wardsgi med yale edu \( matt healy \) subject patents \( rc2 rc4 \) nntp posting host med yale edu organization yale u genetics lines 30 article bontchev fbihh , bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de \( vesselin bontchev \) wrote eoe co uk \( andrew haley \) writes coca cola always understood coca cola made licence dozens countries around world 're crazy think n't know recipe countries coca cola distributed form concentrate local producers simply mix water simple ingredients trick know concentrate n't know still true , one time coca cola took elaborate measures keep formula secret instance , several plants different cities made one six partial concentrates , shipped back forth complicated scheme single plant made whole formula , would guess 's chemists would reverse engineered ca n't exotic actually prefer pepsi anyhow 3 minutes i'm gonna put money pepsi machine matt healy pretend network administrator lab net pretends work matt wardsgi med yale edu
rlglende netcom com \( robert lewis glendenning \) subject old key registration idea organization netcom online communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 25 clipper chip effect current generation pcs , portable desktop , analog voice digital voice vice versa capabilities , need modem output telephone , encryption screen voice traffic want even big deal , pass muster way checking whether using clipper chip encryption without full decoding stating dorthy denning intellectually dishonest acm debate newsgroup previously refrained suggesting arguing behalf consulting clients , say clear dorthy denning functioning , computer scientist used legal ethics \( truth convince anyone \) , scientific ethics \( truth understanding external world \) maybe revoke acm membership \? 8 \) lew lew glendenning rlglende netcom com perspective worth 80 iq points niels bohr \( somebody like \)
mjr tis com \( marcus j ranum \) subject detect use illegal cipher \? organization trusted information systems , inc lines 23 nntp posting host sol tis com government tell encryption method one using without able decode traffic \? e , order accuse using unauthorized strong encryption technique would take keys escrow , run ciphertext draw blank thinking , also 's quite possible system transmits , clear , serial number device used way start tap , get serial number , use warrant first tap get key tap someone 's apparently using encryption , n't find prefix , 'll assume 's un authorized encryption scheme n't handle traffic clipper n't impose unfortunate performance side effects 's reason use stream triple des encrypted traffic way traffic looks normal perhaps anyone desiring listen wo n't even bother , since know nobody 's going really trust crypto classified internals important stuff mjr
subject pgp , pem , rfc 's \( cryptography patents \) rubin dsg4 dse beckman com \( arthur rubin \) organization beckman instruments , inc nntp posting host dsg4 dse beckman com lines 22 blaze cs jhu edu eifrig cs jhu edu \( jonathan eifrig \) writes fact unlawful distribute code implementing rsa without license pkp , whether one charging furthermore , use rsa , research purposes allowed us patent law , similarly unlawful therefore , average citizen cannot use rsa encrypt message traffic us without license pkp wrong n't think even pkp claims one unlawful distribute code implementing rsa appears unlawful use , agree last sentence fact restrictions \( yet ! \) use cryptography us law , although beginning look like change widespread use rsa cryptography us pkp 's patents yes , 's correct arthur l rubin rubin dsg4 dse beckman com \( work \) beckman instruments brea 216 5888 mcimail com 70707 453 compuserve com arthur pnet01 cts com \( personal \) opinions , represent employer
jhesse netcom com \( john hesse \) subject text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption organization netcom online communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) distribution na lines 21 stupid believed democrats stood principles personal privacy republicans wanted every aspect lives clinton clever guy looks like gun control privacy technology one small step time wait minute let think hmmm , feel better believe white house tell us first step , fact , final step ok 've nothing fear 're help us god bless america john hesse man , jhesse netcom com plan , moss beach , calif canal , bob
mjr tis com \( marcus j ranum \) subject text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption organization trusted information systems , inc lines 21 distribution na nntp posting host sol tis com brad clarinet com \( brad templeton \) writes means fbi want track customer lists better encryption phones , reason person would want one evade police 'll probably also want start tracking customer lists people purchasing soundblaster similar boards , configured use code modem , act pretty decent digital encrypting telephone 's expensive , though , kind awkward n't know drug lords , i'm sure 'd favor something tappable something secure long user interface nice 've got prince wales saying stupid things cordless phones , 's hard imagine drug dealers , child pornographers , commies , lisp programmers , threats civilized world might incriminating business encrypting cellular phones mjr
jhesse netcom com \( john hesse \) subject secret algorithm clipper chip crypto key escrow keywords encryption , wiretap , clipper , key escrow , mykotronx organization netcom online communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 21 article netcom com strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes though share many concerns expressed , find proposal less threatening many others , since right americans secure telephony , jerk pair clip leads goat eavesdrop would also plug security hole cellular cordless phones oh great wonderful news nobody listen except feds believe feds offer least threat liberty anyone , i'm sure glad jerk wo n't tapping phone anymore john hesse man , jhesse netcom com plan , moss beach , calif canal , bob
rboudrie chpc org \( rob boudrie \) subject white house public encryption management fact sheet organization center high perf computing wpi marlboro distribution na lines 10 security key escrow system making decision , intend prevent private sector developing , government approving , microcircuits algorithms equally effective assuring privacy secure key escrow system yeah , intend prevent private sector developing applications equally effective assuring privacy , key escrow system \?
subject text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption uni acs bu edu \( shaen bernhardt \) distribution na organization boston university , boston , , usa lines 51 article gap caltech edu hal cco caltech edu \( hal finney \) writes key question whether non clipper encryption made illegal administration saying , since encryption threatens public safety effective law enforcement , prohibit outright \( countries effectively done \) u saying every american , matter right , entitled unbreakable commercial encryption product false tension created assessment issue either proposition rather , concerns , fact , harmoniously balanced reasoned , balanced approach proposed clipper chip similar encryption techniques clear middle ground implied statements say americans right clipper encryption , unbreakable encryption implies , ultimately , non clipper strong encryption must become illegal text deleted , value judgement implied 's shocking frightening see actually happening hal finney hal alumni caltech edu shocking says less government interested monitoring public scare , pgp ripem must become widespread enough resist mr finney imho correctly identified next logical step academic discussion regard concealing cyphertext , become real consideration rhetoric clinton administration seems obsessed , harmony , either propositions , tension , tells know difficult sell proposition phrase hear ca n't believe actually happening call , clinton huge mistake 'll paying many years approached age public key \? uni \( dark \) uni acs bu edu public keys finger request public key archives pgp public keys cc iastate edu sovereignty sign brutal past
hal cco caltech edu \( hal finney \) subject text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 23 distribution na nntp posting host alumni caltech edu brad clarinet com \( brad templeton \) writes strategy business one rather legal one pushing get standard place , secret standard , get standard drive competitors market legal sell better , encryption n't registered keys , difficult , thus plan phone companies brad 's analysis correct , may offer explanation encryption algorithm kept secret prevent competitors coming clipper compatible phones lack government installed back door strategy brad describes work long way get compatible phones ones government chips \( would nice , point view personal privacy , brad turns right long people still power provide encryption place addition clipper , privacy still possible wording several passages announcement makes doubt whether turn true \) hal finney
rboudrie chpc org \( rob boudrie \) subject old key registration idea organization center high perf computing wpi marlboro lines 35 article access digex net pcw access digex com \( peter \) writes okay , let 's suppose nsa nist registered key system becomes standard i'm able buy system local radio shack every phone comes built chip government key every phone call go buy phone register key 's prevent swapping phones friend buying used phone garage sale \? secret registered keys became government comes 's possible , even likely , serial number chip broadcast either standard encrypted format , big brother types need listen traffic , get court order \( generally saying think may crook \) go r listen , receive secret key registered name n't right one leads conjecture 1 \) system n't secure two master keys work phones country part registering keys bogus 2 \) system vulnerable simple phone swapping attacks like criminals quickly figure go town either case , think need look bit deeper \) mw
rboudrie chpc org \( rob boudrie \) subject algorithm secret distribution na organization center high perf computing wpi marlboro lines 15 thoughts algorithm secret chip \( \) likely become standard many applications economic factors dictate use chip , like public , code secure \( absent access escrowed keys \) represented , enterprising sort would make compatible crypto chips key escrowed likely release refering refered secrecy algorithm protecting security escrow system rob boudrie
schneier chinet chi il us \( bruce schneier \) subject issa '93 conference organization chinet public access unix distribution usa lines 4 anyone attending issa conference arlington , va next week , would appreciate getting touch bruce
brad clarinet com \( brad templeton \) subject know keys ask \? \( clipper \) organization clarinet communications corp lines 10 actual algorithm classified , however , main thrust cellular phones , encryption radio end , end end , think end end come later course identify phone company , since phone company complies court orders , know magic number chip sign warrant , present warrant key escrow house brad templeton , clarinet communications corp sunnyvale , ca 408 296 0366
brad clarinet com \( brad templeton \) subject text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption distribution na organization clarinet communications corp lines 29 article sol tis com mjr tis com \( marcus j ranum \) writes 've got prince wales saying stupid things cordless phones , 's hard imagine drug dealers , child pornographers , commies , lisp programmers , threats civilized world might incriminating business encrypting cellular phones let 's assume , moment , system really secure unless get halves encryption key two independent escrow houses let 's say even trust escrow houses one aclu eff \( i'm entirely joking two names \) case prince wales nothing worry system indeed , pointed , since current systems , even current digital systems , easy decode right anybody old tv hear people , viewed oh step upwards look tolerant public 're willing let neighbours radios hear right suggested one person lot non wiretapping going right without warrants , anybody 's violation would stop tapping would need warrant , breach security escrow houses brad templeton , clarinet communications corp sunnyvale , ca 408 296 0366
brad clarinet com \( brad templeton \) subject tapped , code good distribution na organization clarinet communications corp lines 22 occurs get wiretap order , escrow houses release code cops , code longer secure 's hands cops , sure time good , security good escrow houses effectively means perform wiretap , end wiretap , obligated inform tap performed , replace \( free \) clipper chip cellular phone code known escrow houses police normally reveal every tap even charges laid \? many ways , would positive step judges set time limits warrants , assume end time limit renew replace chip 's go scheme , sure agree brad templeton , clarinet communications corp sunnyvale , ca 408 296 0366
amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) subject secret algorithm clipper chip crypto key escrow organization intercon systems corporation herndon , va usa lines 30 distribution world reply amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) nntp posting host chaos intercon com keywords encryption , wiretap , clipper , key escrow , mykotronx x newsreader intercon tcp connect ii 1 1 jhesse netcom com \( john hesse \) writes oh great wonderful news nobody listen except feds hey , 's better status quo far less worried feds tapping phone high school scanner get kicks eavesdropping cellular cordless phone calls would stupid rely even channel truly sensitive material , seem finally offer reasonable way guard casual eavesdropping example , even strong right bear arms view private right possess use strong cryptosystems , system described provides enough security would actually buy cordless phone , would much less wary using cellular phones , , long 's used mass market voice scrambling , actually n't see problem want security offers , use something different use pkcs electronic mail , celp des triple des diffie hellman key exchange voice traffic , whatever yes , 'd rather see crypto restrictions lifted , least improvement certain applications amanda walker intercon systems corporation
amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) subject text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption organization intercon systems corporation herndon , va usa lines 12 distribution world reply amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) nntp posting host chaos intercon com x newsreader intercon tcp connect ii 1 1 article bu edu , uni acs bu edu \( shaen bernhardt \) writes shocking says less government interested monitoring public scare , surprise , i'm shocked amanda walker intercon systems corporation
crypt comments math ncsu edu subject cryptography faq 01 10 overview organization crypt cabal lines 138 expires 22 may 1993 04 00 07 gmt reply crypt comments math ncsu edu nntp posting host pad thai aktis com summary part 1 10 sci crypt faq , overview table contents subsequent sections contributors , feedback , archives , administrivia x last updated 1993 04 16 archive name cryptography faq last modified 1993 4 15 faq sci crypt , part 1 overview first ten parts sci crypt faq parts mostly independent , read part rest n't time send missing parts mail , n't ask notes `` kah67 '' refer reference list last part disclaimer document product crypt cabal , secret society serves national uh , seriously , 're good guys , 've done ensure completeness accuracy document , field military commercial importance like cryptography expect people organizations consider interests important open scientific discussion trust verify firsthand n't sue us many people contributed faq alphabetical order eric bach , steve bellovin , dan bernstein , nelson , carl ellison , jim gillogly , mike gleason , doug gwyn , luke o'connor , tony patti , william apologize omissions suggestions , comments , criticism , please let current editors know sending e mail crypt comments math ncsu edu n't assume faq complete point archives sci crypt archived since october 1991 cl cl msu edu , though archives available u canadian users please contact crypt comments math ncsu edu know archives sections faq available via anonymous ftp rtfm mit edu pub usenet news answers cryptography faq part xx cryptography faq posted newsgroups sci crypt , sci answers , news answers every 21 days table contents 1 overview 2 net etiquette groups around \? 's faq \? \? \? political discussions belong sci crypt \? present new encryption scheme sci crypt \? 3 basic cryptology cryptology \? cryptography \? plaintext \? ciphertext \? encryption \? key \? references start learn cryptology \? one go cryptanalysis \? brute force search cryptographic relevance \? properties satisfied every strong cryptosystem \? cryptosystem theoretically unbreakable , guaranteed analysis proof practice \? many people still using cryptosystems relatively easy break \? 4 mathematical cryptology mathematical terms , private key cryptosystem \? attack \? 's advantage formulating mathematically \? one time pad secure \? 's ciphertext attack \? 's known plaintext attack \? 's chosen plaintext attack \? mathematical terms , say brute force attacks \? 's key guessing attack \? 's entropy \? 5 product ciphers product cipher \? makes product cipher secure \? group theoretic properties product ciphers \? proven security product cipher \? block ciphers used encrypt data longer block size \? symmetric block ciphers used message authentication \? exactly des \? triple des \? differential cryptanalysis \? nsa involved design des \? des available software \? des available hardware \? des used protect classified information \? ecb , cbc , cfb , ofb encryption \? 6 public key cryptography public key cryptography \? 's rsa \? rsa secure \? fast people factor numbers \? public key cryptosystems \? 7 digital signatures hash functions one way hash function \? difference public , private , secret , shared , etc \? md4 md5 \? snefru \? 8 technical miscellany recover lost passwords wordperfect \? break vigenere \( repeated key \) cipher \? send encrypted mail unix \? pgp , ripem , pem , unix crypt command secure \? use compression encryption \? unbreakable cipher \? mean cryptography \? unicity point \( k unicity distance \) \? key management important \? use pseudo random chaotic numbers key stream \? correct frequency list english letters \? enigma \? shuffle cards \? foil w pirates encrypting cd rom \? automatic cryptanalysis simple ciphers \? coding system used vcr \? 9 miscellany national security agency \( nsa \) \? us export regulations \? tempest \? beale ciphers , hoax \? american cryptogram association , get touch \? rsa patented \? voynich manuscript \? 10 references books history classical methods books modern methods survey articles reference articles journals , conference proceedings may one obtain copies fips ansi standards cited herein \? electronic sources rfcs \( available \) related newsgroups
crypt comments math ncsu edu subject cryptography faq 04 10 mathematical cryptology organization crypt cabal lines 203 expires 22 may 1993 04 00 07 gmt reply crypt comments math ncsu edu nntp posting host pad thai aktis com summary part 4 10 sci crypt faq , mathematical cryptology private key systems types attacks \( brute force , cyphertext , plaintext , etc \) mathematical formulation cryptography security one time pads x last updated 1993 04 16 archive name cryptography faq last modified 1993 4 15 faq sci crypt , part 4 mathematical cryptology fourth ten parts sci crypt faq parts mostly independent , read first part rest n't time send missing parts mail , n't ask notes `` kah67 '' refer reference list last part sections faq available via anonymous ftp rtfm mit edu pub usenet news answers cryptography faq part xx cryptography faq posted newsgroups sci crypt , sci answers , news answers every 21 days contents mathematical terms , private key cryptosystem \? attack \? 's advantage formulating mathematically \? one time pad secure \? 's ciphertext attack \? 's known plaintext attack \? 's chosen plaintext attack \? mathematical terms , say brute force attacks \? 's key guessing attack \? 's entropy \? mathematical terms , private key cryptosystem \? private key cryptosystem consists encryption system e decryption system encryption system e collection functions e k , indexed k , mapping set p set c similarly decryption system collection functions k k \( e k \( p \) \) p every plaintext p , succesful decryption ciphertext plaintext accomplished using key \( index \) used corresponding encryption plaintext ciphertext systems , wherein key value used encrypt decrypt , also known attack \? intuitive terms \( passive \) attack cryptosystem method starting information plaintexts corresponding ciphertexts \( unknown \) key , figuring information plaintexts 's possible state mathematically means go fix functions f , g , h n variables fix encryption system e , fix distribution plaintexts keys attack e using g assuming f giving h probability p algorithm pair f , g inputs one output h , probability p computing h h \( p 1 , , p n \) , f f \( p 1 , , p n \) g g \( e k \( p 1 \) , , e k \( p n \) \) note probability depends distribution vector \( k , p 1 , , p n \) attack trivial \( \) probability least p computing h h \( p 1 , , p n \) f f \( p 1 , , p n \) g g \( c 1 , , c n \) c 1 , , c n range uniformly possible ciphertexts , particular relation p 1 , , p n words , attack trivial n't actually use encryptions e k \( p 1 \) , , e k \( p n \) attack called n 1 , n 2 , 's advantage formulating mathematically \? basic cryptology never prove cryptosystem secure read part 3 keep saying strong cryptosystem must property , property guarantee cryptosystem strong ! '' contrast , purpose mathematical cryptology precisely formulate , possible , prove statement cryptosystem strong say , example , cryptosystem secure \( passive \) attacks nontrivial attack system \( defined \) slow practical prove statement confidence cryptosystem resist \( passive \) cryptanalytic technique reduce statement well known problem still confidence cryptosystem n't easy break parts cryptology also amenable mathematical definition point explicitly identify assumptions 're making prove produce desired results figure means particular cryptosystem used properly means assumptions valid methodology useful cryptanalysis cryptanalyst take advantage incorrect assumptions often try construct proof security system , see proof fails , use failures starting points analysis one time pad secure \? definition , one time pad cryptosystem plaintexts , ciphertexts , keys strings \( say byte strings \) length , e k \( p \) sum \( let 's say exclusive \) k p easy prove mathematically nontrivial single ciphertext attacks one time pad , assuming uniform distribution keys note n't assume uniform distribution plaintexts \( 's proof let attack , e , algorithm taking two inputs f , g producing one output h , probability p h h \( p \) whenever f f \( p \) g g \( e k \( p \) \) \( e , g g \( k p \) \) , distribution k uniform independent p , distribution k p must also uniform independent p also distribution c uniform independent p hence probability exactly p h h \( p \) whenever f f \( p \) g g \( c \) , p c thus trivial \) hand one time pad secure key k used one plaintext e , nontrivial multiple ciphertext attacks properly used key k must thrown away one encryption key also called explains name time pad '' 's ciphertext attack \? notation , ciphertext attack one f constant given information g \( e k \( p 1 \) , , e k \( p n \) \) n ciphertexts , attack chance producing information h \( p 1 , , p n \) plaintexts attack trivial good chance producing h \( p 1 , , p n \) given g \( c 1 , , c n \) random c 1 , , c n example , say g \( c \) c , say h \( p \) first bit p easily write attack attack , '' simply guesses h \( p \) 1 attack trivial n't use ciphertext fifty fifty chance guessing correctly matter hand attack rsa produces one bit information p , 100 success , using c fed random c success rate drops 50 nontrivial attack 's known plaintext attack \? classic known plaintext attack f \( p 1 , p 2 \) p 1 , g \( c 1 , c 2 \) \( c 1 , c 2 \) , h \( p 1 , p 2 \) depending p 2 words , given two ciphertexts c 1 c 2 one decryption p 1 , known plaintext attack produce information decryption p 2 note known plaintext attacks often defined literature producing information key , pointless cryptanalyst generally cares key insofar lets decrypt messages 's chosen plaintext attack \? chosen plaintext attack first increasingly impractical series active attacks cryptosystem attacks cryptanalyst feeds data encryptor attacks n't fit model passive attacks explained anyway , chosen plaintext attack lets cryptanalyst choose plaintext look corresponding ciphertext , repeat figured decrypt message absurd examples sort attack key system attack '' much important form active attack message corruption attack , attacker tries change ciphertext way make useful change plaintext many easy ways throw kinks attacks instance , automatically encrypting plaintext p , e k \( h \( r p \) , r , p \) , time key \( sequence number \) chosen anew message , r random number , h one way hash function comma means plus means exclusive mathematical terms , say brute force attacks \? consider following known plaintext attack given plaintexts p 1 , , p n 1 ciphertexts c 1 , , c n 1 're also given ciphertext c n run every key k find k e k \( p \) c every n , print k \( c n \) n big enough one key works , attack succeed valid inputs time , produce correct results blue moon random inputs thus nontrivial attack problem slow many possible keys 's key guessing attack \? 's entropy \? say somebody using one time pad n't choosing keys randomly uniformly bit messages , supposed security proof fact say 's known prefer keys english words cryptanalyst run english words possible keys attack often succeed , 's much faster brute force search entire keyspace measure bad key distribution calculating entropy number e number bits key cryptanalyst typically happen across key within 2 e guesses e defined sum p k log 2 p k , p k probability key k
crypt comments math ncsu edu subject cryptography faq 08 10 technical miscellany organization crypt cabal lines 414 expires 22 may 1993 04 00 07 gmt reply crypt comments math ncsu edu nntp posting host pad thai aktis com summary part 8 10 sci crypt faq , technical miscellany recovering word perfect passwords breaking ciphers encrypting unix files email security unix command encryption compression key management letter frequency german enigma code card shuffling w piracy x last updated 1993 04 16 archive name cryptography faq last modified 1993 4 15 faq sci crypt , part 8 technical miscellany eighth ten parts sci crypt faq parts mostly independent , read first part rest n't time send missing parts mail , n't ask notes `` kah67 '' refer reference list last part sections faq available via anonymous ftp rtfm mit edu pub usenet news answers cryptography faq part xx cryptography faq posted newsgroups sci crypt , sci answers , news answers every 21 days contents recover lost passwords wordperfect \? break vigenere \( repeated key \) cipher \? send encrypted mail unix \? pgp , ripem , pem , unix crypt command secure \? use compression encryption \? unbreakable cipher \? mean cryptography \? unicity point \( k unicity distance \) \? key management important \? use pseudo random chaotic numbers key stream \? correct frequency list english letters \? enigma \? shuffle cards \? foil w pirates encrypting cd rom \? automatic cryptanalysis simple ciphers \? coding system used vcr \? recover lost passwords wordperfect \? wordperfect encryption shown easy break method uses xor two repeating key streams typed password byte wide counter initialized 1 password length full descriptions given bennett bergen chris writes awhile back looking way decrypt wordperfect document files think solution software company named \( 87 east 600 south , orem , ut \) , 1 800 658 software package decrypt wordperfect , lotus 1 2 3 , pro , ms excel paradox files cost package 185 steep prices , think pw key less 10 characters , \( 10 char \) give call ask free demo disk demo disk decrypt files 10 char less pw key '' break vigenere \( repeated key \) cipher \? repeated key cipher , ciphertext something like plaintext xor \( \) , called vigenere cipher key long plaintext english , following 1 discover length key counting \( see gaines , \) trying displacement ciphertext , count bytes equal two ciphertext portions used key , something 6 bytes equal used different key , less 0 4 equal \( assuming random 8 bit bytes key covering normal ascii text \) smallest displacement indicates equal key length repeated key 2 shift text length xor removes key leaves text xored since english 1 bit real information per byte , 2 streams text xored together 2 bits info per 8 bit byte , providing plenty redundancy choosing unique decryption \( fact one stream text xored 1 bit per byte \) key short , might even easier treat standard substitution old cryptanalysis texts show break 's possible methods , hands expert , 's ten times much text key see , example , gaines , send encrypted mail unix \? pgp , ripem , pem , 's one popular method , using des command cat file compress des private key uuencode mail meanwhile , de internet standard works called pem \( privacy enhanced mail \) described rfcs 1421 1424 join pem mailing list , contact pem dev request tis com beta version pem tested time writing also two programs available public domain encrypting mail pgp ripem available ftp newsgroup alt security pgp alt security ripem faq well pgp commonly used outside usa since uses rsa algorithm without license rsa 's patent valid \( least primarily \) usa ripem commonly used inside usa since uses rsaref freely available within usa available shipment outside usa since programs use secret key algorithm encrypting body message \( pgp used idea ripem uses des \) rsa encrypting message key , able interoperate freely although repeated calls understand 's formats algorithm choices , available time \( far know \) unix crypt command secure \? see program available called cbw \( crypt breaker 's workbench \) used ciphertext attacks files encrypted crypt one source cbw use compression encryption \? number people proposed perfect compression followed simple encryption method \( e g , xor repeated key \) unfortunately , compress perfectly know exact distribution possible inputs practical purposes 's impossible describe ``the typical english beyond coarse characteristics single letter frequencies build sophisticated models inputs , enemy slightly accurate model , 'll able find redundancy compressed output note nearly practical compression schemes , unless designed cryptography mind , produce output actually starts high redundancy example , output unix compress begins well known three byte serve entering wedge cryptanalysis say compression encryption inherently bad idea done , carefully , means removes need strong encryption compression encryption silly unbreakable cipher \? yes one time pad unbreakable see part 4 unfortunately one time pad requires secure distribution much key material plaintext course , cryptosystem need utterly unbreakable useful rather , needs strong enough resist attacks likely enemies whatever length time data protects expected remain valid mean cryptography \? cryptographic applications demand much number generator applications source bits cryptographically random , must computationally impossible predict nth random bit given complete knowledge algorithm hardware generating stream sequence n 1st bits , n lifetime source software generator \( also known pseudo random \) function expanding truly random seed longer string apparently random bits seed must large enough guessed opponent ideally , also truly random \( perhaps generated hardware random number source \) sparcstation 1 workstations could , example , generate random numbers using audio input device source entropy , connecting anything example , cat dev audio compress foo gives file high entropy \( random much randomness \) one encrypt file using part key , example , convert seed entropy pseudo random string looking hardware devices provide entropy , important really measure entropy rather assume looks complicated human , must random example , disk operation completion times sound like might unpredictable \( many people \) spinning disk much like clock output completion times relatively low entropy unicity point \( k unicity distance \) \? see unicity distance approximation amount ciphertext sum real information \( entropy \) corresponding source text encryption key equals number ciphertext bits used ciphertexts significantly longer shown probably unique used back claim validity ciphertext cryptanalysis ciphertexts significantly shorter likely multiple , equally valid therefore gain security opponent 's difficulty choosing correct one unicity distance , like statistical information theoretic measures , make deterministic predictions rather gives probabilistic results namely , minimum amount ciphertext likely single plaintext corresponding ciphertext , possible keys tried decryption working n't normally deal unicity distance instead directly determine likelihood events interest let unicity distance cipher characters fewer ciphertext characters intercepted , enough information distinguish real key set possible keys des unicity distance 17 5 characters , less 3 ciphertext blocks \( block corresponds 8 ascii characters \) may seem low first , unicity distance gives indication computational work required find key approximately characters intercepted fact , actual cryptanalysis seldom proceeds along lines used discussing unicity distance \( like measures key size , unicity distance something guarantees insecurity 's small , n't guarantee security 's high \) practical cryptosystems absolutely analysis manner characteristics might serve entering crack cipher messages however , similar information theoretic considerations occasionally useful , example , determine recommended key change interval particular cryptosystem also employ variety statistical information theoretic tests help guide analysis promising directions unfortunately , literature application information statistics cryptanalysis remains classified , even 1940 work alan turing \( see \) insight possibilities , see key management important \? one fundamental axioms cryptography enemy full possession details general cryptographic system , lacks specific key data employed encryption \( course , one would assume cia make habit telling mossad cryptosystems , mossad probably finds anyway \) repeated use finite amount key provides redundancy eventually facilitate cryptanalytic progress thus , especially modern communication systems vast amounts information transferred , parties must sound cryptosystem also enough key material cover traffic key management refers distribution , authentication , handling keys publicly accessible example modern key management technology stu iii secure telephone unit , classified use employs individual coded ignition central key management center operated nsa hierarchy certain used authorized cryptographic control personnel validate issuance individual traffic keys perform installation maintenance functions , reporting lost give extent key management problem public key systems , several related issues , many trust \? '' use pseudo random chaotic numbers key stream \? chaotic equations fractals produce apparent randomness relatively compact generators perhaps simplest example linear sequence , one popular types random number generators , obvious dependence seeds outputs unfortunately graph sequence , high enough dimension , show regular lattice mathematically lattice corresponds structure notoriously easy exploit complicated generators complicated structure , make interesting pictures cryptographically strong sequence structure see , exercise 3 5 7 correct frequency list english letters \? three answers question , slightly deeper one find first answer various books namely , frequency list computed directly certain sample english text course list computed , exactly list get depends sample taken second answer question n't make sense mean \? fixed , finite , closed object exactly characterized changed time different different authors particular message different statistics language whole third answer yes , particular message going exactly characteristics english general , reasonable statistical uses slight discrepancies wo n't matter fact 's entire field called \( buzzwords entropy likelihood \) studies questions like 's chance text letter frequencies english \? '' comes reasonably robust answers make list samples english text good enough practical work , use properly enigma \? project data security looking sources information german enigma code broken british wwii '' see , , , , shuffle cards \? card shuffling special case permutation array values , using random pseudo random function possible output permutations process equally likely , need random function \( \( x \) \) produce uniformly distributed random integer interval 0 x 1 given function , shuffle following c code \( assuming length array swap \( \) values two addresses given \) \( n 1 n 0 n \) swap \( \( n 1 \) , n \) \( x \) achieved exactly simple \( ranno \( \) x \) since ranno \( \) 's interval may x , although cases error small cover case , one take ranno \( \) 's mod x , call number , ranno \( \) returns value less , go back get another ranno \( \) value foil w pirates encrypting cd rom \? someone frequently express desire publish cd rom possibly multiple pieces software , perhaps encrypted separately , want use different keys user \( perhaps even good limited period time \) order avoid piracy far know , impossible , since nothing standard pc workstation hardware identifies user keyboard identification , cd rom could encrypted key based part one sold user part unique identifier however , case cd rom one kind defeats intended purpose cd rom encrypted mass produced , must key \( set keys \) encryption produced stage process key useable copy cd rom 's data pirate needs isolate key sell along illegal copy automatic cryptanalysis simple ciphers \? schneier chinet chi il us \( bruce schneier \) says orem , utah sells products break password scheme number popular macintosh pc software packages telephone number \( 801 \) 224 pd software cited many papers subject , , breaking substitution ciphers using relaxation algorithm comm acm vol 22 \( 11 \) pp 598 605 \( nov 1979 \) , michael , constraint satisfaction algorithm automated decryption simple substitution ciphers , advances cryptology crypto '88 , springer lecture notes computer science , vol 403 \( paper also contains references earlier work subject \) john steve martin , automated cryptanalysis substitution ciphers , cryptologia , vol x number 4 , oct 86 209 john robbins , automated cryptanalysis ciphers , cryptologia , vol xi number 4 , oct 87 205 martin , survey data insecurity packages , cryptologia , vol xi number 1 , jan 87 p1 15 martin , another data insecurity package , cryptologia , vol xii number 3 , july 88 , 177 cryptologia vol number 4 1989 pp 303 326 king , probabilistic relaxation cryptanalysis simple substitution ciphers cryptologia 16 \( 3 \) 215 225 king , algorithmic solution sequential ciphers cryptologia , april 93 \( press \) r et al , use genetic algorithms cryptanalysis simple substitution ciphers , cryptologia , vol number 1 , jan 93 44 coding system used vcr \? one frequently asked question sci crypt vcr codes work following article attempts describe k shirriff , c welch , kinsman , decoding vcr controller code , cryptologia , 16 \( 3 \) , july 1992 , pp 227 234
crypt comments math ncsu edu subject cryptography faq 10 10 references organization crypt cabal lines 333 expires 22 may 1993 04 00 07 gmt reply crypt comments math ncsu edu nntp posting host pad thai aktis com summary part 10 10 sci crypt faq , references history classical methods modern methods survey reference articles journals conference proceedings electronic sources \( ftp sites \) related newsgroups x last updated 1993 04 16 archive name cryptography faq last modified 1993 4 15 faq sci crypt , part 10 references tenth ten parts sci crypt faq parts mostly independent , read first part rest n't time send missing parts mail , n't ask notes `` kah67 '' refer reference list part sections faq available via anonymous ftp rtfm mit edu pub usenet news answers cryptography faq part xx cryptography faq posted newsgroups sci crypt , sci answers , news answers every 21 days contents books history classical methods books modern methods survey articles reference articles journals , conference proceedings electronic sources rfcs \( available \) related newsgroups books history classical methods cf , william f friedman , military aegean park press , \? cipher louis , machine cryptography modern cryptanalysis house , 610 washington st , , , 1985 william f friedman , solving german codes world war aegean park press , \? h gaines , cryptanalysis , study ciphers solution dover publications , 1944 f h , et al , british intelligence second world war cambridge university press \( vol 's 1 , 2 , 3a , 3b 4 , far \) xxx years authors , fix xxx andrew hodges , alan turing enigma books ltd , 1983 david kahn , seizing enigma houghton , 1991 kah67 kahn , codebreakers macmillan publishing , 1967 history abridged paperback edition left technical details original hardcover edition recommended w , enigma university publications america , 1984 , statistical methods cryptanalysis aegean park press , 1976 , elementary cryptanalysis math assoc 1966 gordon , hut six story mcgraw hill , 1982 herbert , american black chamber aegean park press , \? books modern methods h , f piper , cipher systems wiley , 1982 g , modern cryptology tutorial verlag , 1988 denning , cryptography data security addison wesley publishing company , 1982 n , course number theory cryptography springer verlag , 1987 , cryptography primer wiley , 1981 c meyer matyas , cryptography new dimension computer security wiley , 1982 wayne patterson , mathematical cryptology computer scientists mathematicians littlefield , 1987 c , security computing prentice hall , 1989 w price , davies , security computer networks wiley , 1984 r , design analysis stream ciphers springer verlag , 1986 , public key cryptography springer verlag , 1990 welsh , codes cryptography press , 1988 survey articles , , provable security crypto systems survey yale university , department computer science , 288 , 1983 beth , algorithm engineering public key algorithms ieee selected areas communication , 1 \( 4 \) , 458 466 , 1990 , j , elements cryptology secure digital communications , g ed , 1 57 , 1983 w diffie , hellman , privacy authentication introduction cryptography ieee proceedings , 67 \( 3 \) , 397 427 , 1979 w diffie , first ten years public key cryptography ieee proceedings , 76 \( 5 \) , 560 577 , 1988 h feistel , cryptography computer privacy scientific american , 228 \( 5 \) , 15 23 , 1973 h feistel , h , w , j lynn smith cryptographic techniques machine machine data communications , ieee ieee proceedings , 63 \( 11 \) , 1545 , 1975 hellman , mathematics public key cryptography scientific american , 130 139 , 1979 , algorithms public key cryptosystems advances computers , ed , 22 , academic press , 45 108 , 1983 , cryptology transition , computing surveys , 11 \( 4 \) , 285 304 , 1979 j massey , introduction contemporary cryptology , ieee proceedings , 76 \( 5 \) , 533 549 , 1988 g simmons \( ed \) , contemporary cryptology science information integrity ieee press , 1991 reference articles , j reeds , cryptanalysis rotor substitution permutation networks ieee trans inform theory , 28 \( 4 \) , 578 584 , 1982 john bennett , analysis encryption algorithm used wordperfect word processing program cryptologia 11 \( 4 \) , 206 210 , 1987 h bergen w j , file security wordperfect 5 0 cryptologia 15 \( 1 \) , 57 66 , january 1991 e biham shamir , differential cryptanalysis des like cryptosystems journal cryptology , vol 4 , 1 , 3 72 , 1991 e biham , shamir , differential cryptanalysis snefru , khafre , ii , loki lucifer proceedings crypto '91 , ed j feigenbaum , 156 171 , 1992 j , sequences produced pseudo random number generators journal acm , 1989 e , j moore , , structure boxes des proceedings crypto '86 , ed , 3 8 , 1987 l brown , proposed design extended des , computer security computer age science publishers b v \( north holland \) , , w j ed , 9 22 , 1989 l brown , j , j , loki cryptographic primitive authentication secrecy applications proceedings 90 , 229 236 , 1990 h gustafson , e dawson , w , comparison block ciphers proceedings '90 , j j eds , 208 220 , 1990 k w campbell , j wiener , proof des group proceedings crypto '92 , 1993 carl ellison , solution messages cryptologia , vol xii , 3 , 144 158 , jul 1988 even , , des like functions generate alternating group ieee trans inform theory , vol 29 , 6 , 863 865 , 1983 g , r outerbridge , des watch examination sufficiency data encryption standard financial institutions 1990 's cryptologia , vol xv , 3 , 177 193 , 1991 gillogly , \? cryptologia 4 \( 2 \) , 1980 , silvio , probabilistic encryption play mental poker keeping secret partial information proceedings fourteenth annual acm symposium theory computing , 1982 g n hunter r mckenzie , experiments relaxation algorithms breaking simple substitution ciphers computer journal 26 \( 1 \) , 1983 j kam , g , structured design substitution permutation encryption networks ieee trans information theory , 28 \( 10 \) , 747 753 , 1978 p , data encryption gurus tuchman meyer cryptologia , vol ii 4 , 371 xxx , 1978 , \? cryptologia 12 \( 4 \) , 1988 x lai , j massey , proposal new block encryption standard eurocrypt 90 , 389 404 , 1990 c , , construct permutations functions journal computing , vol 17 , 2 , 373 386 , 1988 j massey , introduction contemporary cryptology ieee proceedings , 76 \( 5 \) , 533 549 , 1988 r merkle , fast software encryption functions proceedings crypto '90 , ed , 476 501 , 1991 c meyer , ciphertext plaintext ciphertext key dependence vs number rounds data encryption standard conference proceedings , 47 , 1126 , 1978 data encryption standard national bureau standards , fips pub 46 , washington , dc , january 1977 j reeds , random number generator cryptologia 1 \( 1 \) , 20 26 , 1977 j reeds p j , file security unix crypt command bell laboratories technical journal , vol 63 8 , part 2 , , october , 1984 c shannon , communication theory secrecy systems bell system technical journal 28 \( 4 \) , 656 715 , 1949 b kaliski , r rivest , sherman , data encryption standard group journal cryptology , vol 1 , 1 , 1 36 , 1988 , , fast data encipherment algorithm feal eurocrypt '87 , 267 278 , 1988 , lucifer cryptographic algorithm cryptologia , 8 \( 1 \) , 22 35 , 1984 journals , conference proceedings crypto eurocrypt ieee transactions information theory cryptologia cryptology journal , quarterly since jan 1977 cryptologia rose hulman institute technology indiana general systems , analysis , history , journal cryptology international association cryptologic research published springer verlag \( quarterly since 1988 \) cryptogram \( journal american cryptogram association \) west hickory street , il primarily puzzle various sorts cryptosystems journal , published tony patti , p box 188 , pa , usa tony patti cup portal com publisher 's comment includes complete cryptosystems source executable programs diskettes tutorial typical cryptosystems supports multi megabit keys field arithmetic inexpensive hardware random number generator details computer communication security reviews , published ross anderson sample issue available various ftp sites , including black ox ac uk editorial c rja14 cl cam ac uk publisher 's comment review conference proceedings field , including crypto eurocrypt , regional like also abstract 50 journals , cover computer security well cryptology , readers see research trends applications well theory address note aegean park press , p box , hills , ca answering machine 714 586 dod 5200 28 std , published december 1985 part series write department defense , national security agency , attn , 9800 savage road , fort meade , md 6000 , ask trusted computer system evaluation criteria call 301 766 bamford , puzzle palace penguin books , \? j good , good thinking foundations probability applications university minnesota press , 1983 e , art computer programming , volume 2 algorithms addison wesley , 1981 , information theory statistics dover , 1968 , computational information theory complexity information theory , ed abu , 1988 may one obtain copies fips ansi standards cited herein \? many textbooks cryptography contain complete reprints fips standards , copyrighted following standards may ordered u department commerce , national technical information service , springfield , va fips pub 46 1 data encryption standard \( des \) fips pub 74 guidelines implementing using nbs des fips pub 81 des modes operation fips pub 113 computer data authentication \( using des \) following standards may ordered american national standards institute sales office , 1430 broadway , new york , ny phone 212 642 4900 ansi x3 92 1981 data encryption algorithm \( identical fips 46 1 \) ansi x3 106 1983 dea modes operation \( identical fips 113 \) notes figure 3 fips pub 46 1 error , figure 3 x3 92 1981 correct text correct publications electronic sources anonymous ftp ftp uu net bsd sources usr bin des ftp uu net usenet comp sources unix cbw ftp funet fi pub unix security tar z ftp psy uq oz au pub des rsa com \? cl cl msu edu pub crypt tar z ftp 3com com orange book prep ai mit edu pub lpf ucsd edu packet tcpip crypto des tar z nic merit edu documents rfc beta xerox com pub hash chalmers se pub des des 1 0 tar z ftp uu net usenet comp sources unix crypt garbo uwasa fi pc util zip rfcs \( available \) 1424 kaliski , b privacy enhancement internet electronic mail part iv key certification related services 1993 february 9 p \( format txt bytes \) , privacy enhancement internet electronic mail part iii algorithms , modes , 1993 february 14 p \( format txt bytes \) \( obsoletes rfc 1115 \) 1422 kent , privacy enhancement internet electronic mail part ii certificate based key management 1993 february 32 p \( format txt bytes \) \( obsoletes rfc 1114 \) 1421 linn , j privacy enhancement internet electronic mail part message encryption authentication procedures 1993 february 42 p \( format txt bytes \) \( obsoletes rfc 1113 \) related newsgroups newsgroups sci crypt reader might want also read faq well alt comp compression discussion compression algorithms code alt security general security discussions alt security index index alt security alt security pgp discussion pgp alt security ripem discussion ripem alt society civil liberty general civil liberties , including privacy comp org eff news news reports eff comp org eff talk discussion eff related issues comp patents discussion w patents , including rsa comp risks mention crypto wiretapping comp society privacy general privacy issues comp security announce announcements security holes misc legal computing sci math general math discussion
ckincy cs umr edu \( charles kincy \) subject bob putz cain \( pgp bs \) nntp posting host cs umr edu organization university missouri rolla , rolla , mo lines 21 article 1993apr16 natasha portal com bob natasha portal com \( bob cain \) writes charles kincy \( ckincy cs umr edu \) wrote article 1993apr16 natasha portal com bob natasha portal com \( bob cain \) writes oh , see , flame someone , tell immature , tell wrong , n't offer proof assertions really putz put shut provide proof wish private name , dickhead n't bother blaze cs jhu edu pretty much made pathetic ass lose pack bags go home putz cain well , shoe fits cpk
crypt comments math ncsu edu subject cryptography faq 03 10 basic cryptology organization crypt cabal lines 187 expires 22 may 1993 04 00 07 gmt reply crypt comments math ncsu edu nntp posting host pad thai aktis com summary part 3 10 sci crypt faq , basic cryptology definitions basic terms beginner references cryptanalysis theoretical practical strength ciphers x last updated 1993 04 16 archive name cryptography faq last modified 1993 4 15 faq sci crypt , part 3 basic cryptology third ten parts sci crypt faq parts mostly independent , read first part rest n't time send missing parts mail , n't ask notes `` kah67 '' refer reference list last part sections faq available via anonymous ftp rtfm mit edu pub usenet news answers cryptography faq part xx cryptography faq posted newsgroups sci crypt , sci answers , news answers every 21 days contents cryptology \? cryptography \? plaintext \? ciphertext \? encryption \? key \? references start learn cryptology \? one go cryptanalysis \? brute force search cryptographic relevance \? properties satisfied every strong cryptosystem \? cryptosystem theoretically unbreakable , guaranteed analysis proof practice \? many people still using cryptosystems relatively easy break \? cryptology \? cryptography \? plaintext \? ciphertext \? encryption \? key \? story begins julius caesar sent messages trusted acquaintances , n't trust messengers replaced every c , every b , alphabet someone knew rule could decipher messages cryptosystem cipher system method messages certain people see disguise cryptography art creating using cryptosystems cryptanalysis art breaking cryptosystems seeing disguise even 're supposed able cryptology study cryptography cryptanalysis original message called plaintext disguised message called ciphertext encryption means procedure convert plaintext ciphertext decryption means procedure convert ciphertext plaintext cryptosystem usually whole collection algorithms algorithms labelled labels called keys instance , caesar probably used encryption several different values n 's natural say n key people supposed able see disguise called recipients people enemies , opponents , , , third parties references start learn cryptology \? introduction technical matter , survey articles given part 10 best place begin , general , concise , authored competent people , well written however , articles mostly concerned cryptology developed last 50 years , abstract mathematical historical codebreakers kahn kah67 history technical detail cryptology mid 60 's introductory cryptanalysis learned gaines recommended especially people want devise encryption algorithms since common mistake try make system knowing break one selection algorithm des drew attention many public researchers problems cryptology consequently several textbooks books serve texts appeared book denning gives good introduction broad range security including encryption algorithms , database security , access control , formal models security similar comments apply books price davies books meyer matyas quite technical books meyer directly involved development des , books give thorough analysis des 's book quite mathematical , detailed analyses many classical cryptosystems meyer matyas concentrate modern cryptographic methods , especially pertaining key management integration security facilities computer systems networks books concentrate application number theory algebra cryptography one go cryptanalysis \? classical cryptanalysis involves interesting combination analytical reasoning , application mathematical tools , pattern finding , patience , determination , luck best available textbooks subject military series clear cryptanalysis , part , gained attempted solution given systems experience considered valuable performed wwii allies still classified modern public key cryptanalysis may consist factoring integer , taking discrete traditional fare cryptanalyst computational number theorists successful public key systems brute force search cryptographic relevance \? nutshell f \( x \) know compute f , find x trying every possible x 's brute force search example say cryptanalyst found plaintext corresponding ciphertext , n't know key simply try encrypting plaintext using possible key , ciphertext matches decrypting ciphertext match plaintext , whichever faster every well designed cryptosystem large key space brute force search impractical advances technology sometimes change considered practical example , des , use 10 years , 2 56 , 10 17 , possible keys computation many operations certainly unlikely users mid 70 's situation different today given dramatic decrease cost per processor operation massively parallel machines threaten security des brute force search scenarios described outerbridge one phase sophisticated cryptanalysis may involve brute force search small space possibilities properties satisfied every strong cryptosystem \? security strong system resides secrecy key rather attempt keep algorithm secret strong cryptosystem large keyspace , mentioned unicity distance measure gives minimum amount ciphertext must intercepted identify key key , unicity distance much longer amount ciphertext intend encrypt key , system probably strong strong cryptosystem certainly produce ciphertext appears random standard statistical tests \( see , example , \) strong cryptosystem resist known previous attacks system never subjected scrutiny suspect system passes tests mentioned , necessarily strong \? certainly many weak cryptosystems looked good first however , sometimes possible show cryptosystem strong mathematical proof joe break system , also solve well known difficult problem factoring integers '' see part 6 failing , 's crap shoot cryptosystem theoretically unbreakable , guaranteed analysis proof practice \? cryptanalytic methods include known enemy n't stare ciphertext figures plaintext instance , might assume stretches probable plaintext correct might able deduce key decipher rest message might exploit plaintext several cryptosystems several keys thus might obtain solutions even cryptanalytic theory says n't chance sometimes , cryptosystems malfunction misused one time pad , example , loses security used ! even chosen plaintext attacks , enemy somehow feeds plaintext encryptor deduce key , employed see kah67 many people still using cryptosystems relatively easy break \? n't know better often amateurs think design secure systems , aware expert cryptanalyst could sometimes insufficient motivation anybody invest work needed crack system
strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) subject open letter mr clinton organization dsi uscrpac lines 14 's simple way convert clipper proposal unexceptionable one make voluntary get high quality secure nsa classified technology agree escrow key otherwise david david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted
tcmay netcom com \( timothy c may \) subject tapped , code good organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 distribution na lines 51 brad templeton \( brad clarinet com \) wrote occurs get wiretap order , escrow houses release code cops , code longer secure 's hands cops , sure time good , security good escrow houses effectively means perform wiretap , end wiretap , obligated inform tap performed , replace \( free \) clipper chip cellular phone code known escrow houses getting court order reveal key also makes decipherable past conversations \( may tape , disk , \) , understand proposal could wrong , 've seen mention session keys escrowed entities eff noted , raises issues fruits one bust leading incrimination areas worse current unsecure system \? becomes much worse , course , government uses clinton clipper argue restrictions unapproved encryption \( main concern us , think camel 's nose tent , etc \) may also become much worse security increased , thus allowing greater access central office records government \( conversations encrypted , object letting government access , perhaps even automatically archiving large fractions \) one main objections 266 proposal , would force telecom suppliers provide easy access government one government access months years encrypted conversations , takes one , one violation gets paperwork needed decrypt ! want anyone kind power \? tim may , whose sig block may get busted new regime timothy c may crypto anarchy encryption , digital money , tcmay netcom com anonymous networks , digital pseudonyms , zero 408 688 5409 knowledge , reputations , information markets , w e aptos , ca black markets , collapse governments higher power 2 756839 public key pgp mailsafe available
crypt comments math ncsu edu subject cryptography faq 02 10 net etiquette organization crypt cabal lines 92 expires 22 may 1993 04 00 07 gmt reply crypt comments math ncsu edu nntp posting host pad thai aktis com summary part 2 10 sci crypt faq , net etiquette related newsgroups , appropriate topics , introduce encryption scheme x last updated 1993 04 16 archive name cryptography faq last modified 1993 4 15 faq sci crypt , part 2 net etiquette second ten parts sci crypt faq parts mostly independent , read first part rest n't time send missing parts mail , n't ask notes `` kah67 '' refer reference list last part sections faq available via anonymous ftp rtfm mit edu pub usenet news answers cryptography faq part xx cryptography faq posted newsgroups sci crypt , sci answers , news answers every 21 days contents groups around \? 's faq \? \? \? political discussions belong sci crypt \? present new encryption scheme sci crypt \? groups around \? 's faq \? \? \? read news announce newusers news answers weeks always make sure read newsgroup time post 'll amazed often question asked newsgroup month 'll much better sense readers want see political discussions belong sci crypt \? fact newsgroups \( notably misc legal computing \) created exactly political questions like rsa patented \? '' n't get way technical discussions many sci crypt readers also read misc legal computing , comp org eff talk , comp patents , sci math , comp compression , et al benefit people n't care topics , try put postings right group questions smuggling non cryptographic n't belong sci crypt either present new encryption scheme sci crypt \? ``i came neat method encryption 's ciphertext strong \? '' without doubt questions like annoying traffic sci crypt come encryption scheme , providing ciphertext adequate nobody ever impressed random gibberish new algorithm secure even opponent knows full algorithm \( including message key distributed \) private key kept secret systematic ways take reasonably long ciphertexts decrypt even without prior knowledge algorithm , time consuming possibly fruitless exercise sci crypt readers wo n't bother new encryption scheme \? first , find 's really new look faq references related methods familiarize literature introductory textbooks appreciate cryptosystem fits world large , try break ! n't waste time tens thousands readers asking question could easily answered really think system secure , want get experts , might try posting full details system , including working code solid theoretical explanation , sci crypt \( keep mind export cryptography regulated areas \) 're lucky expert might take interest posted encourage offering cash rewards instance , noted ralph merkle offering 1000 anyone break snefru 4 guarantees n't enough experience , likely experts look system able find flaw happens , 's responsibility consider flaw learn , rather add one layer complication come back another round different way get cryptosystem reviewed nsa look full discussion procedure outside scope faq among professionals , common rule thumb want design cryptosystem , experience cryptanalyst
crypt comments math ncsu edu subject cryptography faq 05 10 product ciphers organization crypt cabal lines 435 expires 22 may 1993 04 00 07 gmt reply crypt comments math ncsu edu nntp posting host pad thai aktis com summary part 5 10 sci crypt faq , product ciphers theory security product ciphers differential cryptanalysis des encryption standard nsa role des design des hardware software availability x last updated 1993 04 16 archive name cryptography faq last modified 1993 4 15 faq sci crypt , part 5 product ciphers fifth ten parts sci crypt faq parts mostly independent , read first part rest n't time send missing parts mail , n't ask notes `` kah67 '' refer reference list last part sections faq available via anonymous ftp rtfm mit edu pub usenet news answers cryptography faq part xx cryptography faq posted newsgroups sci crypt , sci answers , news answers every 21 days contents product cipher \? makes product cipher secure \? group theoretic properties product ciphers \? proven security product cipher \? block ciphers used encrypt data longer block size \? symmetric block ciphers used message authentication \? exactly des \? triple des \? differential cryptanalysis \? nsa involved design des \? des available software \? des available hardware \? des used protect classified information \? ecb , cbc , cfb , ofb encryption \? product cipher \? product cipher block cipher several weak operations substitution , transposition , modular addition multiplication , linear transformation \( means cipher encrypts block data 8 bytes , say , goes next block \) notion product ciphers due shannon examples modern product ciphers include lucifer , des , sp networks , loki , feal , , khufu khafre called feistel ciphers class product ciphers operate one half ciphertext round , swap ciphertext halves round lucifer , des , loki , feal examples feistel ciphers following table compares main parameters several product ciphers cipher block length key bits number rounds lucifer 128 128 16 des 64 56 16 loki 64 64 16 feal 64 128 2 x , x 5 64 128 8 makes product cipher secure \? nobody knows prove mathematically product cipher completely secure practice one begins demonstrating cipher highly example , cipher must nonlinear , must produce ciphertext functionally depends every bit plaintext key meyer shown least 5 rounds des required guarantee dependence sense product cipher act function combines plaintext , key , ciphertext complex nonlinear fashion fixed per round product cipher referred boxes example , lucifer 2 boxes , des 8 boxes product cipher reduces careful design boxes list partial design criteria boxes des , apply boxes general , may found brown et al group theoretic properties product ciphers \? let e product cipher maps n bit blocks n bit blocks let e k \( x \) encryption x key k , fixed k , map sending x e k \( x \) permutation set n bit blocks denote permutation p k set n bit permutations called symmetric group written 2 n collection permutations p k , k ranges possible keys , denoted e \( 2 n \) e random mapping plaintexts ciphertexts would expect e \( 2 n \) generate large subset 2 n grossman shown simple product cipher generate alternating group 2 n given sufficient number rounds \( alternating group half symmetric group consists permutations , e , permutations written even number \) even able extend results show feistel ciphers generate 2 n , given sufficient number rounds security multiple encipherment also depends group theoretic properties cipher multiple encipherment extension single encipherment keys k1 , k2 exist third key k3 e k2 \( e k1 \( x \) \) e \( k3 \) \( x \) \( \) indicates encrypting twice two independent keys k1 , k2 equal single encryption third key k3 every k1 , k2 exists k3 eq \( \) true say e group question whether des group definition extensively studied sherman , kaliski , rivest paper give strong evidence hypothesis des group fact des group proven security product cipher \? recall p k permutation produced e key k goal designer e ensure p k appears random element 2 n , symmetric group let r element 2 n selected randomly say p k r indistinguishable observer given p k r order cannot distinguish two permutations polynomial time , time bounded resources , observer cannot determine permutations produced e optimal decision better simply guessing shown class feistel ciphers secure sense round mapping replaced random boolean functions block ciphers used encrypt data longer block size \? four standard modes operation \( numerous non standard ones well \) standard modes operation defined u department commerce federal information processing standard \( fips \) 81 , published 1980 see question ecb details although defined des block cipher , modes operation used block cipher symmetric block ciphers used message authentication \? one may use symmetric cryptosystem block cipher prove generate message , prove whether message altered unaltered since generation one cannot prove things another without revealing key , thereafter key cannot used prove anything messages authenticated using key see ansi x3 106 1983 fips 113 \( 1985 \) standard method message authentication using des exactly des \? des u government 's data encryption standard product cipher operates 64 bit blocks data , using 56 bit key defined fips 46 1 \( 1988 \) supersedes fips 46 \( 1977 \) fips federal information processing standards published ntis des identical ansi standard data encryption algorithm \( dea \) defined ansi x3 92 1981 triple des \? triple des product cipher , like des , operates 64 bit data blocks several forms , uses des cipher 3 times forms use two 56 bit keys , use three des modes operation may also used triple des people refer e \( k1 , \( k2 , e \( k1 , x \) \) \) triple des method defined chapter 7 2 ansi standard x9 17 1985 financial institution key management intended use encrypting des keys ivs automated key distribution formal name encryption decryption single key key pair , referenced standards documents standard says \( section 7 2 1 \) key encrypting keys may single dea key dea key pair key pairs used additional security needed \( e g , data protected key \( \) long security life \) key pair shall encrypted decrypted using single key others use term triple des e \( k1 , \( k2 , e \( k3 , x \) \) \) e \( k1 , e \( k2 , e \( k3 , x \) \) \) one us \( carl ellison \) keeps advocating des triple use form e \( k1 , tran \( e \( k2 , tran \( e \( k3 , compress \( x \) \) \) \) \) \) , des instance key iv \( cbc mode \) tran posted sci crypt \( large block transposition program taking key data stream , encryption program part \) differential cryptanalysis \? differential cryptanalysis statistical attack applied iterated mapping \( ie mapping based repeated round function \) method recently biham shamir , remarked boxes des optimized attack 20 years ago method proved effective several product ciphers , notably feal differential cryptanalysis based observing large number ciphertexts , y' whose corresponding plaintexts x , x' satisfy known difference x x' , xor basic biham shamir attack , 2 47 plaintext pairs required determine key des substantially fewer pairs required des truncated 6 8 rounds cases , actual key recovered matter minutes using thousand pairs full des attack impractical requires many known plaintexts work biham shamir des revealed several startling observations algorithm importantly , key schedule removed des 16 48 768 bit key used , key could recovered less 2 64 steps thus independent add substantial security des , boxes des extremely sensitive changing even single entries tables yields significant improvement differential attack shamir quoted say \( nytimes oct 13 1991 \) , ``i would say , contrary people believe , evidence des basic design weakened '' nsa involved design des \? according , tuchman , member group developed des ibm quoted saying , ``we developed des algorithm entirely within ibm using nsa dictate single wire ! '' tuchman meyer \( another developer des \) spent year breaking ciphers finding weaknesses lucifer spent two years strengthening lucifer basic approach look strong substitution , permutation , key scheduling functions ibm classified notes containing selection criteria request nsa `the nsa told us inadvertently deep secrets uses make algorithms , ' explains tuchman '' hand , document called nsa development des unclassified summary united states select committee , printed ieee communications magazine , 55 , 1978 , states ``in development des , nsa convinced ibm reduced sufficient indirectly assisted development box structures certified final des algorithm , best knowledge , free statistical mathematical weakness '' clearly key size reduced insistence nsa article states nsa tamper algorithm , parameters , sense apparent conflict remarks meyer tuchman presented des available software \? several people made des code available via ftp \( see part 10 pathnames \) stig bsd eric young dennis mark riordan phil karn pascal listing des also given patterson fips 46 1 says algorithm specified standard implemented using hardware \( software \) technology software implementations general purpose computers compliance standard despite , software implementations abound , used government agencies des available hardware \? following paragraphs quoted messages sent editors n't vouch quality even existence products chip rosenthal says semiconductor makes des encryption decryption device use standard , digital telecom data streams capable processing data real time , e g one sample frame phone number 214 450 0400 would probably need talk telecom marketing '' christian franke , franke informatik rwth aachen de , says 22 according data sheet , 32 bit interface use one , one available started project problems ! 2 according data sheet address b v , 26 , nl ne , netherlands 3 des chip \( germany \) boxes must loaded software modify algorithm sorry , n't data sheet handy please e mail need information '' mjr tis com \( marcus j ranum \) says 100mb sec faster des proprietary storage 16 56 bit keys key stream generator integrated hardware procedure extended mode 112 bit keys computer 512 herndon parkway , herndon , va \( 800 \) 322 gandalf ca \( tim \) says newbridge microsystems sells compatible des chip operates 25mhz , performs round encryption 18 clocks , three stage pipeline , supports ecb , cbc , cfb 8 cfb 1 reasonable priced opposed high end des chips call newbridge microsystems , ottawa , \( 613 \) 592 \( import export issues canada us \) require custom des public key ics engineering developed newbridge 's crypto chips ics commercial educational establishments reached \( 613 \) 820 des used protect classified information \? des intended protect classified data fips 46 1 says standard used federal departments agencies cryptographic protection computer data following conditions apply 1 cryptographic protection required 2 data classified according national security act 1947 , amended , atomic energy act 1954 , amended ecb , cbc , cfb , ofb encryption \? methods using block ciphers , des , encrypt messages , files , blocks data , known modes operation four modes operation defined fips 81 \( 1980 december 2 \) , also ansi x3 106 1983 fips 81 specifies 7 bit ascii data sent , unused significant bit set 1 fips 81 also specifies padding short blocks four des modes operation electronic code book \( ecb \) , cipher block chaining \( cbc \) , k bit cipher feedback \( cfb \) , k bit output feedback \( ofb \) methods explained c language like notation symbols p n n'th block plaintext , input encryption , output decryption size block determined mode c n n'th block ciphertext , output encryption , input decryption size block determined mode e \( \) des encryption function , performed 64 bit block , using 16 key schedule derived 56 bit key \( \) des decryption function , performed 64 bit block , using key schedule e \( \) , except 16 keys schedule used opposite order e \( \) iv 64 bit initialization vector , secret value , along key , shared encryptor n n'th value 64 bit variable , used modes r n n'th value 64 bit variable , used modes \( , k \) k least significant \( right \) bits e g \( \( 1 k \) 1 \) msb \( , k \) k significant \( left \) bits e g \( \( 64 k \) \) \( \( 1 k \) 1 \) operators defined c electronic code book \( ecb \) p n c n 64 bits long encryption decryption c n e \( p n \) p n \( c n \) cipher block chaining \( cbc \) p n c n 64 bits long encryption decryption c 0 e \( p 0 iv \) p 0 \( c 0 \) iv \( n 0 \) c n e \( p n c n 1 \) p n \( c n \) c n 1 k bit cipher feedback \( cfb \) p n c n k bits long , 1 k 64 encryption decryption 0 iv 0 iv \( n 0 \) n n 1 k c n 1 n n 1 k c n 1 \( n \) r n msb \( e \( n \) , k \) r n msb \( e \( n \) , k \) \( n \) c n p n r n p n c n r n note k 64 , reduces 0 iv 0 iv \( n 0 \) n c n 1 n c n 1 \( n \) r n e \( n \) r n e \( n \) \( n \) c n p n r n p n c n r n cfb notes since n depends plain cipher text previous operation , e \( \) function performed parallel reception text used k bit output feedback \( ofb \) p n c n k bits long , 1 k 64 encryption decryption 0 iv 0 iv \( n 0 \) n n 1 k r n 1 n n 1 k r n 1 \( n \) r n msb \( e \( n \) , k \) r n msb \( e \( n \) , k \) \( n \) c n p n r n p n c n r n note k 64 , reduces 0 iv 0 iv \( n 0 \) n r n 1 n r n 1 \( n \) r n e \( n \) r n e \( n \) \( n \) c n p n r n p n c n r n ofb notes encryption decryption identical since n independent p c , e \( \) function performed advance receipt plain cipher text used additional notes des modes operation ecb cbc use e \( \) encrypt \( \) decrypt , feedback modes use e \( \) encrypt decrypt disproves erroneous claim systems feature e \( \) \( \) cannot used data confidentiality , therefore subject export controls
crypt comments math ncsu edu subject cryptography faq 06 10 public key cryptography organization crypt cabal lines 108 expires 22 may 1993 04 00 07 gmt reply crypt comments math ncsu edu nntp posting host pad thai aktis com summary part 6 10 sci crypt faq , public key cryptography basics public key cryptography rsa version , security , speed factoring approaches x last updated 1993 04 16 archive name cryptography faq last modified 1993 4 15 faq sci crypt , part 6 public key cryptography sixth ten parts sci crypt faq parts mostly independent , read first part rest n't time send missing parts mail , n't ask notes `` kah67 '' refer reference list last part sections faq available via anonymous ftp rtfm mit edu pub usenet news answers cryptography faq part xx cryptography faq posted newsgroups sci crypt , sci answers , news answers every 21 days contents public key cryptography \? 's rsa \? rsa secure \? fast people factor numbers \? public key cryptosystems \? public key cryptography \? classic cryptosystem , encryption functions e k decryption functions k k \( e k \( p \) \) p plaintext p public key cryptosystem , e k easily computed x turn computed k x published , anyone encrypt messages k cannot easily computed x , person generated k decrypt messages 's essence public key cryptography , published diffie hellman 1976 classic cryptosystem , want friends able send secret messages , make sure nobody sees key k public key cryptosystem , publish x , n't worry spies beginning public key cryptography extensive literature security models public key cryptography , applications public key cryptography , applications mathematical technology behind public key cryptography , 's rsa \? rsa public key cryptosystem defined rivest , shamir , full details , faq available ftp rsa com 's small example plaintexts positive integers 2 512 keys \( p , q , e , \) , p 256 bit prime number , q 258 bit prime number , e large numbers \( de 1 \) \( p 1 \) \( q 1 \) define e k \( p \) p e mod pq , k \( c \) c mod pq e k easily computed pair \( pq , e \) , far anyone knows , easy way compute k pair \( pq , e \) whoever generates k publish \( pq , e \) anyone send secret message one read messages rsa secure \? nobody knows obvious attack rsa factor pq p q see comments fast state art factorization algorithms run unfortunately nobody slightest idea prove factorization realistic problem , matter inherently slow easy formalize mean n't , w lenstra , jr , says , definitions appear necessary one wishes prove algorithms certain properties exist , theoretical computer science notoriously lacking negative results '' fast people factor numbers \? depends size numbers october 1992 arjen lenstra dan bernstein factored 2 523 1 primes , using three weeks time \( processor machine processor add integers per second \) algorithm called field quite bit faster special numbers like 2 523 1 general numbers n , takes time exp \( \( log 1 3 n log 2 3 log n \) \) case older popular method smaller numbers polynomial quadratic , takes time exp \( \( log 1 2 n log 1 2 log n \) \) faster number field sieve small n , slower large n point somewhere 100 150 digits , depending implementations factorization fast moving field state art years ago nowhere near good new methods developed , 2048 bit rsa keys always safe factorization , one ca n't predict future \( number field sieve found , many people quadratic sieve fast factoring method could \) public key cryptosystems \? 've talked rsa 's well known easy describe lots public key systems around , many faster rsa depend problems widely believed difficult brief introduction really want learn many facets public key cryptography , consult books journal articles listed part 10
crypt comments math ncsu edu subject cryptography faq 07 10 digital signatures organization crypt cabal lines 85 expires 22 may 1993 04 00 07 gmt reply crypt comments math ncsu edu nntp posting host pad thai aktis com summary part 7 10 sci crypt faq , digital signatures hash functions theory one way hash functions , distinctions terms md4 md5 snefru x last updated 1993 04 16 archive name cryptography faq last modified 1993 4 15 faq sci crypt , part 7 digital signatures hash functions seventh ten parts sci crypt faq parts mostly independent , read first part rest n't time send missing parts mail , n't ask notes `` kah67 '' refer reference list last part sections faq available via anonymous ftp rtfm mit edu pub usenet news answers cryptography faq part xx cryptography faq posted newsgroups sci crypt , sci answers , news answers every 21 days contents one way hash function \? difference public , private , secret , shared , etc \? md4 md5 \? snefru \? one way hash function \? typical one way hash function takes variable length message produces fixed length hash given hash computationally impossible find message hash fact one ca n't determine usable information message hash , even single bit one way hash functions 's also computationally impossible determine two messages produce hash one way hash function private public , like encryption function 's one application public one way hash function , like md5 snefru public key signature systems relatively slow sign long message may take longer user willing wait solution compute one way hash message , sign hash , short anyone wants verify signature thing another name one way hash function message digest function difference public , private , secret , shared , etc \? horrendous terminology literature small set concepts algorithm depends key n't published , call private algorithm otherwise call public algorithm encryption functions e decryption functions , \( e \( \) \) message also hashing functions h verification functions v , v \( , x \) 1 x h \( \) public key cryptosystem public encryption private decryption , application mentioned previous question , public hashing public verification digital signature functions private hashing public verification one person produce hash message , everyone verify hash correct obviously , algorithm depends private key , 's meant unusable anyone n't key 's real difference key private key shared key n't published , 's private encrypt data friend rather eyes , suddenly key rather private key encryption \? md4 md5 \? md4 md5 message digest functions developed ron rivest definitions appear rfc 1320 rfc 1321 \( see part 10 \) code available note transcription error found original md5 draft rfc corrected algorithm called , though people refer md5 snefru \? snefru family message digest functions developed ralph merkle snefru 8 8 round function , newest family definitions appear merkle 's paper code available
crypt comments math ncsu edu subject cryptography faq 09 10 miscellany organization crypt cabal lines 174 expires 22 may 1993 04 00 07 gmt reply crypt comments math ncsu edu nntp posting host pad thai aktis com summary part 9 10 sci crypt faq , miscellany national security agency us export restrictions tempest electromagnetic interference monitoring beale ciphers , hoax \? american cryptographic association rsa public key patents x last updated 1993 04 16 archive name cryptography faq last modified 1993 4 15 faq sci crypt , part 9 miscellany ninth ten parts sci crypt faq parts mostly independent , read first part rest n't time send missing parts mail , n't ask notes `` kah67 '' refer reference list last part sections faq available via anonymous ftp rtfm mit edu pub usenet news answers cryptography faq part xx cryptography faq posted newsgroups sci crypt , sci answers , news answers every 21 days contents national security agency \( nsa \) \? us export regulations \? tempest \? beale ciphers , hoax \? american cryptogram association , get touch \? rsa patented \? voynich manuscript \? national security agency \( nsa \) \? nsa official security body u government given charter president truman late 40 's , continued research cryptology till present nsa known largest employer mathematicians world , also largest purchaser computer hardware world governments general always prime employers nsa probably possesses cryptographic expertise many years ahead public state art , undoubtedly break many systems used practice reasons national security almost information nsa classified bamford 's book gives history people operations nsa following quote massey highlights difference public private research cryptography `` one regards cryptology government , one accepts cryptologic research conducted behind closed doors without doubt , number workers engaged today secret research cryptology far exceeds engaged open research cryptology 10 years fact widespread open research cryptology , continue , conflicts two research communities open research common quest knowledge depends vitality open exchange ideas via conference presentations publications scholarly journals government agency , charged responsibilities breaking ciphers nations , countenance publication cipher cannot break \? researcher good conscience publish cipher might undermine effectiveness government 's code breakers \? one might argue publication provably secure cipher would force governments behave like 's , one must aware open research cryptography fraught political ethical considerations severity scientific fields wonder conflicts occurred government agencies open researchers cryptology , rather conflicts \( least aware \) mild '' us export regulations \? nutshell , two government agencies control export encryption software one bureau export administration \( \) department commerce , authorized export administration regulations \( ear \) another office defense trade controls \( dtc \) state department , authorized international traffic arms regulations \( itar \) rule thumb , \( works cocom \) less stringent requirements , dtc \( takes orders nsa \) wants see everything first refuse transfer jurisdiction newsgroup misc legal computing carries many interesting discussions laws surrounding cryptographic export , people think laws , many complex issues go beyond scope technical groups like sci crypt make sure consult lawyer anything get thrown jail lucky , lawyer might know lawyer least heard itar tempest \? tempest standard electromagnetic shielding computer equipment created response discovery information read computer radiation \( e g , crt \) quite distance little effort needless say , encryption n't much good cleartext available way beale ciphers , hoax \? \( thanks jim gillogly information john king corrections \) story pamphlet j b ward \( 1885 \) goes thomas jefferson beale party accumulated huge mass treasure buried bedford county , virginia , leaving three ciphers ciphers describe location , contents , intended treasure ward gives decryption second cipher \( contents \) called b2 encrypted book cipher using initial letters declaration independence \( \) key b1 b3 many documents tried key b1 join group attempts solve b1 various means eye toward splitting treasure beale cypher association p box 975 beaver falls , pa get ciphers rec puzzles including line send index message netlib com following directions \( apparently several different versions cipher floating around correct version based 1885 pamphlet , says john king hpcc01 corp hp com \) believe story hoax gives long list problems story gillogly decrypted b1 found unexpected strings , including hammer \( president beale cypher association \) agrees string could n't appear chance , feels must explanation gwyn \( sci crypt expert \) string american cryptogram association , get touch \? organization devoted cryptography , emphasis cryptanalysis systems attacked either pencil paper computers organ ``the includes articles challenge ciphers among 50 cipher types english languages simple substitution , , vigenere , , , grille , , dues 15 one year \( 6 issues \) outside north america less students 18 seniors subscriptions sent treasurer , west hickory st , , il rsa patented \? yes patent number 4 , 405 , 829 , filed 12 14 77 , granted 9 20 83 discussion patent , whether granted , algorithm patents general , related legal moral issues , see comp patents misc legal computing information league programming freedom see note one original purposes comp patents collect questions rsa patented \? '' , often flooded sci crypt technical newsgroups , appropriate forum voynich manuscript \? nelson reed edu \( nelson \) says mailing list subject address write subscribe vms mailing list voynich request rand org ftp archive rand org pub voynich 's sorts information manuscript , course good bibliography found ftp site kahn 's codebreakers gives good introduction
johnson trwacs fp trw com \( steve johnson \) subject know keys ask \? \( clipper \) organization trw systems division , fairfax va lines 23 brad clarinet com \( brad templeton \) writes course identify phone company , since phone company complies court orders , know magic number chip sign warrant , present warrant key escrow house makes forget destroy copies key 've decided 're criminal today \? curious brad templeton , clarinet communications corp sunnyvale , ca 408 296 0366 views expressed employer steven c johnson , trw johnson trwacs fp trw com fp1 3133 129 193 172 90 1 federal systems park drive phone 1 \( 703 \) 968 1000 fairfax , virginia u fax 1 \( 703 \) 803 views expressed employer steven c johnson , trw johnson trwacs fp trw com fp1 3133 129 193 172 90
bet sbi com \( bennett todd salomon brothers inc , ny \) subject source random bits unix workstation lines 44 nntp posting host application , encrypt real time clock value secret key well , almost solve problem , willing type second password \( secret key \) whenever logged , could work however , i'm trying create solution anyone use , , installed , effortless start non solution using xhost \( 1 \) control access 've got religeous problems storing secret keys multiuser computers good discussion cryptographically good random number generators , check draft security randomness 00 txt internet draft , available local friendly internet drafts repository thanks pointer ! good reading , liked idea using several unrelated sources strong mixing function however , unless missed something , source suggested \( aside hardware rng \) seems available , intruder , unix fresh booted , buffers related network traffic believe solution basically uses strategy , without requiring reach kernel reasonably source randomness output cryptographic hash function \( e g , md5 \) , fed large amount less random data example , running md5 dev mem slow , random enough , source random bits bound 128 bits entropy tens \( hundreds \) megabytes data modern workstation 's memory , fair amount system timers , buffers , etc heard solution , sounded good heard folks experiencing times 30 60 seconds run , reasonably configured workstations i'm willing add much delay someone 's login process approach \( etherfind compress , skip 10k \) takes second two run i'm considering writing end solutions , launches md5 , simultaneously tries suck bits net , net sitting idle ca n't get 10k compression md5 finishes , use md5 way could guaranteed good bits , deterministic upper bound login time , still common case login take couple extra seconds bennett bet sbi com
george minster york ac uk subject non word password generator organization department computer science , university york , england lines 10 anyone know non word password generator program pc 's \? \? e produce nonsense word still e g wanted force users adopt secure passwords , still memorable ! thanks george bolt p please email well possible george york ac uk
brad clarinet com \( brad templeton \) subject tapped , code good distribution na organization clarinet communications corp lines 41 article tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com tcmay netcom com \( timothy c may \) writes getting court order reveal key also makes decipherable past conversations \( may tape , disk , \) , understand proposal could wrong , 've seen mention session keys escrowed entities true theory practice \? technology cellular phones probably spread spectrum quite difficult record crypttext without key frequency path depends key , understand , could made effectively impossible record hits land record telco access telco n't supposed give without warrant 's rule today even , evidence would admissible , think , unless judge ordered think even interception crypttext without warrant would illegal cops ca n't record today 's plain cellular calls ask judge , hey , permission listen tapes \? \? worse , course , government uses clinton clipper argue restrictions unapproved encryption \( main concern us , think camel 's nose tent , etc \) yes , major concern , think think win 99 5 usa use system n't even care cautious 5 's left n't catch really smart crooks anyway john , would retarded realize likely wiretapped , away tapped phone murder plans 's 's jail hard believe , true scheme succeed without laws forbidding , people would fight lot harder like enough dropping called digital telephony proposal , according rumours however meaning complex , since still want get crypttext telco systems , requires bit work brad templeton , clarinet communications corp sunnyvale , ca 408 296 0366
johnson trwacs fp trw com \( steve johnson \) subject tapped , code good organization trw systems division , fairfax va distribution na lines 65 tcmay netcom com \( timothy c may \) writes brad templeton \( brad clarinet com \) wrote occurs get wiretap order , escrow houses release code cops , code longer secure 's hands cops , sure time good , security good escrow houses effectively means perform wiretap , end wiretap , obligated inform tap performed , replace \( free \) clipper chip cellular phone code known escrow houses getting court order reveal key also makes decipherable past conversations \( may tape , disk , \) , understand proposal could wrong , 've seen mention session keys escrowed entities eff noted , raises issues fruits one bust leading incrimination areas worse current unsecure system \? becomes much worse , course , government uses clinton clipper argue restrictions unapproved encryption \( main concern us , think camel 's nose tent , etc \) may also become much worse security increased , thus allowing greater access central office records government \( conversations encrypted , object letting government access , perhaps even automatically archiving large fractions \) one main objections 266 proposal , would force telecom suppliers provide easy access government one government access months years encrypted conversations , takes one , one violation gets paperwork needed decrypt ! want anyone kind power \? tim may , whose sig block may get busted new regime remark heard day beginning take increasingly frightening significance comment made parts world democrats note big would known socialists note small democrat wonders thomas jefferson , anniversary birth , would thought state affairs government governed views expressed employer steven c johnson , trw johnson trwacs fp trw com fp1 3133 129 193 172 90 1 federal systems park drive phone 1 \( 703 \) 968 1000 fairfax , virginia u fax 1 \( 703 \) 803 views expressed employer steven c johnson , trw johnson trwacs fp trw com fp1 3133 129 193 172 90
wcs anchor ho att com \( bill stewart 1 908 949 0705 \) subject text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption organization mary ellen carter salvage crew distribution na reply jhesse netcom com 's message sat , 17 apr 1993 01 36 41 gmt keywords big bubba watching ! netcom com nntp posting host rainier ho att com lines 25 article netcom com jhesse netcom com \( john hesse \) writes stupid believed democrats stood principles personal privacy republicans wanted every aspect lives clinton clever guy looks like gun control privacy technology one small step time remember defend firearms defeat , followed bush 's soon election support gun control \? version defend free speech reject republicans followed speech control wait minute let think hmmm , feel better believe white house tell us first step , fact , final step ok 've nothing fear 're help us god bless america hey , like j r bob dobbs says , 've got pull wool eyes ! pray peace bill bill stewart 1 908 949 0705 wcs anchor att com bell labs 4m312 holmdel nj , i'm new jersey , work cyberspace white house commect line 1 202 456 1111 fax 1 202 456 2461
sphughes sfsuvax1 sfsu edu \( shaun p hughes \) subject clipper crap organization san francisco state university lines 17 encryption 's dual edge sword encryption helps protect privacy individuals industry , also shield criminals terrorists need clipper chip random passing thought , anyone cite documented use encryption technology criminals terrorists \( excluding iran contra gang \) shaun p hughes sphughes sfsuvax1 sfsu edu finger pgp 2 2 public key
wcs anchor ho att com \( bill stewart 1 908 949 0705 \) subject white house wiretap chip disinformation sheet organization ministry truth reply clipper csrc ncsl nist gov 's message fri , 16 apr 1993 20 44 58 gmt keywords big bubba watching nntp posting host rainier ho att com lines 58 fascinating content white house announcements said gives us almost nothing value , threatens take away lot , sincere smile face , nice friendly word management fact sheet public encryption management first thing n't say 're giving stronger encryption says u government developed microcircuit provides privacy encryption substantially robust current government standard , also permits escrowing keys needed unlock encryption system escrowing keys allow government gain access encrypted information appropriate legal authorization des strong enough government break , major effect make easier government break ! best makes difficult nsa break , since need get one two escrowed keys brute force search 40 bit key similarly , n't say 're making encryption commercially available encryption already commercially available , including forms nsa may able break , like triple des idea phone companies could offer des based systems convinced government would let could make enough money next thing n't say 're making encryption legal , course encryption always legal , president ca n't change first amendment merely decree say making decision , intend prevent private sector developing , government approving , microcircuits algorithms equally effective assuring privacy secure key escrow system clearly means 're making encryption illegal unless get keys soon business buys another thing n't say 're going ask congress money lots wiretapping , course , 's budget crisis , congress might debate policy issues give cash say attorney general procure utilize encryption devices extent needed preserve government 's ability conduct lawful electronic surveillance fulfill need secure law enforcement communications , attorney general shall utilize funds department justice asset forfeiture super surplus fund effect purchase means 've got money congress ca n't control 're going buy lots wiretapping equipment detect non approved crypto \( 's preserve government 's ability conduct surveillance means \) pray peace bill bill stewart 1 908 949 0705 wcs anchor att com bell labs 4m312 holmdel nj , i'm new jersey , work cyberspace white house commect line 1 202 456 1111 fax 1 202 456 2461
brad clarinet com \( brad templeton \) subject secret algorithm clipper chip crypto key escrow keywords encryption , wiretap , clipper , key escrow , mykotronx article clarinet 1993apr17 organization clarinet communications corp lines 21 interestingly enough , designing escrow , may want use rather unusual technology , sealed boxes paper , destructive read memory , rather typical computer databases , fun database hundreds millions keys greatest danger escrow database , kept disk , would chance complete copy could somehow leak design lots protection , enough corruption complete copy always possible storing paper something hard copy may actually make sense medium ca n't copied example , something slow access times leaves destructive trail even read course 's hard backup however , think consequences backup data warrant comes worse consequences secret backup audit trail reveals data access , ca n't erased humans involved , also necessary brad templeton , clarinet communications corp sunnyvale , ca 408 296 0366
rdippold qualcomm com \( ron asbestos dippold \) subject clinton boost spy spending article qualcom rdippold organization qualcomm , inc , san diego , ca lines 23 originator rdippold qualcom qualcomm com nntp posting host qualcom qualcomm com right heels clinton registered encryption key debacle comes sphughes sfsuvax1 sfsu edu \( shaun p hughes \) writes f chronicle president clinton asked congress authority spend money spy agencies , satellites intelligence activities fiscal 1994 allotted 1993 , congressional administration officials say clinton promised slash intelligence spending 7 billion four years although size vast intelligence budget remains official secret , administration congressional officials disclosed yesterday would total 28 billion increase requested clinton approved wonder much extra money goes coming encryption schemes easily crack \? theorem theorem ,
rdippold qualcomm com \( ron asbestos dippold \) subject white house wiretap chip disinformation sheet keywords big bubba watching article qualcom rdippold organization qualcomm , inc , san diego , ca lines 10 originator rdippold qualcom qualcomm com nntp posting host qualcom qualcomm com wcs anchor ho att com \( bill stewart 1 908 949 0705 \) writes fascinating content white house announcements said gives us almost nothing value , threatens take away lot , sincere smile face , nice friendly word management computer , err , government , friend nice day \( penalty law \) refuse praise seek praise twice
rdippold qualcomm com \( ron asbestos dippold \) subject secret algorithm clipper chip crypto key escrow keywords encryption , wiretap , clipper , key escrow , mykotronx article qualcom rdippold organization qualcomm , inc , san diego , ca lines 11 originator rdippold qualcom qualcomm com nntp posting host qualcom qualcomm com jhesse netcom com \( john hesse \) writes oh great wonderful news nobody listen except feds anybody get keys escrow company database 's going take plenty updating think keep secure \? please 's primary , secondary sources , police using key warrant would anyone surprised neglected erase key turned could n't nail anything \? pick eyes
brad clarinet com \( brad templeton \) subject detect use illegal cipher \? organization clarinet communications corp lines 30 article sol tis com mjr tis com \( marcus j ranum \) writes traffic way traffic looks normal perhaps anyone desiring listen wo n't even bother , since know nobody 's going really trust crypto classified internals important stuff nice think , naive fact millions people today sending highly confidential information , easy receive cellular phones figure chances heard small , risk 99 9 people n't understand crypto way least sci crypt newbies clinton tells 's good crypto , 'll believe , send important stuff , thankful 're longer using clear voice fm cellular phones tiny fraction people want crypto worse , eyes government , swears spook level secure \( may indeed \) reason could possibly want extra level avoid police using , 'll attract attention likely honour , suspect suddenly started using another level cryptography ca n't tap phone calls must something hide please sign warrant search house brad templeton , clarinet communications corp sunnyvale , ca 408 296 0366
barrett lucy ee und ac za \( alan barrett \) subject white house public encryption management fact sheet organization elec eng , univ natal , durban , africa lines 19 distribution inet nntp posting host lucy ee und ac za article c5lgaz 250 dove nist gov , clipper csrc ncsl nist gov \( clipper chip announcement \) writes distribution na thanks topic interest much wider audience making decision , intend prevent private sector developing , government approving , microcircuits algorithms equally effective assuring privacy secure key escrow system making decision , intend prevent private sector developing , except government 's approval , microcircuits algorithms effective assuring privacy apb alan barrett , dept electronic eng , univ natal , durban , south africa barrett ee und ac za
louie umd edu \( louis \) subject tapped , code good distribution na organization university maryland , college park lines 14 nntp posting host umd edu article tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com tcmay netcom com \( timothy c may \) writes worse current unsecure system \? becomes much worse , course , government uses clinton clipper argue restrictions unapproved encryption \( main concern us , think camel 's nose tent , etc \) excuse \? already happened 's couple tent already ask folks qualcomm became non trivial encryption scheme proposed use cdma cellular phone standard \? already restrictions place louis
ken sugra uucp \( kenneth ng \) subject fifth amendment passwords organization private computer , totowa , nj lines 21 article 1993apr16 linus mitre org ptrei bistromath mitre org \( peter trei \) writes judge grant immunity whatever may learned key keyphrase confess deliberately evading copyright file encoded keyphrase contains illegal scans copyrighted peanuts strips judge cp oh get \? i'm saying wo n't , ca n't \( even n't \) , legal mechanism use \? crossposting misc legal \? hm , could another court try via bypass double jeopardy amendment like lapd trial \? ie judge state judge , federal judge justification trail kenneth ng please reply ken blue njit edu might elaborate simulation running little device sitting someone 's table j l picard st tng
smb research att com \( steven bellovin \) subject old key registration idea organization bell laboratories lines 19 article netcom com , rlglende netcom com \( robert lewis glendenning \) writes stating dorthy denning intellectually dishonest acm debate newsgroup previously refrained suggesting arguing behalf consulting clients , say clear dorthy denning functioning , computer scientist used legal ethics \( truth convince anyone \) , scientific ethics \( truth understanding external world \) maybe revoke acm membership \? 8 \) suggest refrain insults unless produce evidence back claim given measures proposed passed last year , 266 scanner ban , proposal need attempt technical solution 's entirely possible , fact , notion splitting key , came debate , proposal
ji cs columbia edu \( john ioannidis \) subject source random bits unix workstation organization columbia university department computer science lines 32 article 899 pivot sbi com bet sbi com \( bennett todd salomon brothers inc , ny \) writes heard solution , sounded good heard folks experiencing times 30 60 seconds run , reasonably configured workstations i'm willing add much delay someone 's login process approach \( etherfind compress , skip 10k \) takes second two run i'm considering writing end solutions , launches md5 , simultaneously tries suck bits net , net sitting idle ca n't get 10k compression md5 finishes , use md5 way could guaranteed good bits , deterministic upper bound login time , still common case login take couple extra seconds 53 seconds hash 20m core \( bet know source information ! \) , 's acceptable 's part login process going use network traffic source pseudo random information , right thing pass cryptographic hash function , compressor aside fact run faster , give better results \( think cryptographic hash function randomness \) something along lines etherfind x n dd bs 1k count 10 2 dev null md5 trick gives , lack u makes sure dd get ten lines opposed ten k takes couple seconds lightly loaded ethernet bennett bet sbi com ji
zrepachol cc curtin edu au \( paul repacholi \) subject know keys ask \? \( clipper \) lines 19 organization curtin university technology article johnson trwacs , johnson trwacs fp trw com \( steve johnson \) writes brad clarinet com \( brad templeton \) writes course identify phone company , since phone company complies court orders , know magic number chip sign warrant , present warrant key escrow house lets hope years ago telecom tech refused tap line unless saw warrant type told fired appeal dismissal lost makes forget destroy copies key 've decided 're criminal today \? curious good luck paul
zrepachol cc curtin edu au \( paul repacholi \) subject going \? lines 17 organization curtin university technology distribution inet article 1993apr16 1 cc curtin edu au , zrepachol cc curtin edu au \( paul repacholi \) writes ca n't bothered reading , get video manufacturing consent reply mail queries n't know video available yet asked month ao told rsn several also asked books answer , anything else get well ever , due like 24 hr day etc , would say first , th last parts ie bits domestic 3rd world chilling anyone mit good st noam bibliography \? paul
craft camp clarkson edu \( hobbit \) subject white house public encryption management fact sheet nntp posting host logic clarkson edu organization clarkson university distribution na lines 26 question digital communications encryption fact sheet mentioned encryption decryption special keys law enforcement wire tapping purposes wanted , could n't develop encryption \? , partner crime unique encryption decryption devices installed tappable one , could n't circumvent keys system \? replace \? 'd really interested knowing e microcircuits might made prevent ! \( language , please ! maybe bit technical \) please e mail , i'm net news much 'd like ! pete craft camp clarkson edu craft camp clarkson edu regret rough sheet sleep herman brooks
gtoal news ibmpcug co uk \( graham toal \) subject secret algorithm clipper chip crypto key escrow organization etc organization lines 17 nntp posting host dorothy ibmpcug co uk keywords encryption , wiretap , clipper , key escrow , mykotronx article netcom com strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes though may argue nose camel , 's worth noting government proposal limited scrambled telephony used purpose , extend electronic mail file encryption , improvement current mass produced standard civilian technology , exceptions , limited easy break try reading lines david strong hints 're angling nren next , conceivable meaning applying particular technology computer network intend used exclusion means encryption n't wedge end looks thin graham
eck panix com \( mark eckenwiler \) subject tapped , code good organization nwo steering committee distribution na lines 26 1993apr17 clarinet com , brad clarinet com sez police normally reveal every tap even charges laid \? many ways , would positive step judges set time limits warrants , assume relevant federal law , 18 usc sec \( 8 \) \( \) , authorizing judge must notify targets within 90 days tap period \( extensions \) expires normal practice course , wiretap law would complete without unless clause , subsection 8 \( \) reads like ex showing e , gov't without opposition , since would obviously involve notice targets good cause judge competent jurisdiction serving inventory required subsection order dates interception etc may postponed \( emphasis added \) followups directed select groups moral always choose right sort parents start rough george ade mark eckenwiler eck panix com ! cmcl2 ! panix ! eck
murray src dec com \( hal murray \) subject know keys ask \? \( clipper \) organization dec systems research center lines 8 article 1993apr17 clarinet com , brad clarinet com \( brad templeton \) writes actual algorithm classified , however , main thrust cellular phones , encryption radio end , end end , think end end come later encrypting radio link n't make sense means telco decryption , hence need keys going kept secure \?
amolitor nmsu edu \( andrew molitor \) subject tapped , code good organization department mathematical sciences lines 38 distribution na nntp posting host moink nmsu edu article tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com tcmay netcom com \( timothy c may \) writes worse current unsecure system \? becomes much worse , course , government uses clinton clipper argue restrictions unapproved encryption \( main concern us , think camel 's nose tent , etc \) pick mr may particular , course , n't kind domino theory \? one little country falls , neighbor surely follow , know , 're mining salt siberia turning captain crunch secret decoder rings surely hypothesis relying least wild assumptions take face value fort asked cook something 's pretty secure , key escrowed neatly , government plans sell thing , reasons state yes , evil guys fbi probably , effort , abuse system got news , evil guys fbi decide want persecute , 're gonna , 're gonna hate fact , fbi n't want listen phone calls , , 're using triple des , 'll get parabolic microphone point head pretty clearly effort government exactly 're saying 're typical governments , 's , full holes compromises typical government , 's bad , could worse interpretation andrew tim may , whose sig block may get busted new regime n't little melodramatic \?
grady netcom com \( 1016 2ef221 \) subject powerful similarity organization capriccioso x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 107 unix tool cryptographic significance available anonymous ftp agrep 2 0 4 fast approximate pattern matching tool source code project available cs arizona edu directory agrep agrep fast fuzzy search tool tremendous number powerful search options one obviously applicable cryptography \( key selection \) able specify similarity matches data example say make password phrase course rightly suspect key dictionary word list close en entry could varied crack program brute force search \? use agrep find looking argument none , one two errors , matches good far agrep 3 finds pattern close pattern \( part host others \) , cryptographic value key error level two corresponds simple transposition letters like teh minimally acceptable password would pass least level 3 order immediately ruled even remote possibility good password \( real cryptographic use , personal clear least level 8 rather large 80 meg word phrase lists \) searching key words human typed data \( lots o' typos \) tool example , example , say want find people think gibson 's sf book huge sf lover 's archives even error distance specification small 1 find people think title common typos miss anything \? also , program look 30 , 000 patterns parallel moore \( \) speeds great nsa wannabe look name , terrorists names , special religious words , etc news e mail spool directories even search ciphertext using , say , 30 , 000 random three byte combinations eliminate texts n't score x chi square hits message size think crypto terrorist try foil changing pattern \? problem try agrep p nsa find nsa , national security agency , , agency , national scrabble association , n , etc also specify fixed areas looking license plate know letters correct , might say agrep 2 xyz 123 find plates starting xyz two errors \( addition , substitution , deletion \) number area also weight relative cost , additions , deletion errors example , searching dna patterns particular protein combination , might know kinds damage cause drop errors could adjust bias setting dc set deletion cost count c errors use \( even used agrep 2 e find correct spelling ! \) would intentionally introduce errors certain type magnitude plaintext later recover orginal via agrep pipe lots possibilities outlaws ciphertext also agrep 's powerful extraction options makes easy abstract hits useful form example , agrep \( passphrase zimmerman nsa \) ' says output entire mail record , contains contains either , , agrep measured order magnitude faster second best similarity tool publicly available usual , glad e mail source docs e mail cannot anonymous ftp get powerful stay hands nsa grady ward , vendor nsa \( proud \) grady netcom com 2ef221 15 e2 ad d3 d1 c6 f3 fc 58 ac f7 3d 4f 01 1e 2f
netcom com \( mark earle \) subject pgp 2 0 vs 2 2 organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) distribution na lines 10 've seen pgp 2 2 mentioned mac platform use 2 0 ms dos 2 2 ms dos \? , site two available \( 'd need executables , although source would nice review \) fixed changed 2 0 2 2 \? thanks , netcom com finger pgp2 0 public key
fraser sfu ca \( guy thomas \) subject going \? organization simon fraser university , burnaby , b c , canada distribution inet lines 13 zrepachol cc curtin edu au \( paul repacholi \) writes article 1993apr16 1 cc curtin edu au , zrepachol cc curtin edu au \( paul repacholi \) writes ca n't bothered reading , get video manufacturing consent reply mail queries n't know video available yet asked month ao told rsn yes national film board canada guy native ed bc ca
smb research att com \( steven bellovin \) subject clipper new thoughts organization bell laboratories lines 55 'd prefer n't rehash arguments went ad infinitum last time 's especially true sci crypt matter , 've created alt privacy clipper , since traffic appearing many different groups right i'm going focus technical aspects plan , hence followup sci crypt frankly , 're absolutist , feelings may turn issues example 80 bit key , simply splitting two 40 bit pieces much less acceptable schemes , means one repository , shall say , overly , would eavesdropper would need recover 40 bits key need point newsgroup 's pretty easy exhaustive search slightly complex scheme xor ing key random number , complement would produce two 80 bit , neither useful alone variant much resistant attack clearly , one get even sophisticated , protect even thoughts people noted size complexity databases necessary id strings phones emit could back door key , double encrypted escrow public keys matter , could session keys , back door case , fbi would bring every intercept decrypted would answer many objections along lines make sure even combine variant digital telephony back door switch tap , digitally signed record time , phone number , etc , call provides proof escrow agents tap done compliance terms warrant suggest variations , suppose clipper chip 100 public key pairs would used 10 times , 'd need keying material \( bad idea event \) could used enforce time limits , rather , usage limits , warrant keys repository agents would deliver would n't last long suspect cryptographic algorithm secure apart obvious push weak algorithm 've already got back door \? think government still genuinely concerned foreign espionage , especially aimed commercial targets scheme lets spooks cake eat , \( 've heard rumors , years , factions within nsa unhappy des good could n't crack , much expensive easily 'd want \) 're keeping details secret others n't build implementations without back door cryptographic protocol , though , another matter see valid reasons keeping secret , hope 've shown lot ways things n't \( quite \) bad
marc vanheyningen mvanheyn cs indiana edu subject really work \? \( text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption \) organization computer science dept , indiana university distribution na lines 57 announcement somewhat disconcerting n't anything evil , badly future open algorithms standards information security wo n't start panicking unless des rsa stuff like prohibited , i'm little anxious \( doubt wo n't long someone posts explaining small part far ranging long lived nsa pkp irs fbi cia clinton conspiracy subvert freedom , democracy , mathematics \) feeling administration probably n't worried things like des rsa pgp ripem , since 'll never used group much wider us computer geeks fact came suggests one two things 1 nsa working long time , happened release world time 2 nsa working long time , n't able get bush administration go along plan \( find unlikely would sympathy use cryptography likely administration felt even escrowed , secret algorithm , know , trivially breakable cryptography made widely available \) thus said clipper csrc ncsl nist gov \( clipper chip announcement \) new technology help companies protect proprietary information , protect privacy personal phone conversations prevent unauthorized release data transmitted electronically time technology preserves ability federal , state local law enforcement agencies intercept lawfully phone conversations criminals majority discussion involving clipper chip seems pertain encryption telephone conversations anyone know means chip designed work primarily analog signals \? language sort suggests , 's hard say main thing n't get whether chip implements symmetric asymmetric cryptographic techniques anybody know \? i'm guessing symmetric , n't get clear symmetric , useful anything link level encryption identical chip end \? negotiate per session key using symmetric cryptography without using trusted third party knows key \? \( even use per session key \? \) 's asymmetric , pkp 's patents , claim cover methods asymmetric cryptography \? getting royalties , hiding infringement real reason keeping algorithm secret \? \) marc vanheyningen mvanheyn cs indiana edu mime ripem accepted kirk wo n't hurt alien hit ! kirk well , wo n't hit
cuffell spot colorado edu \( tim cuffel \) subject tapped , code good nntp posting host spot colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder distribution na lines 11 change login passwords every couple months sure would suck get new sparc station everytime wanted seems expect want routinely change password phone i'm sure government contractor n't mind , system cheaply change keys \( des \) inherent security advantages , regardless algorithms involved tim cuffel finger pgp 2 1 cia admitted assassination saddam one goals failed , course seems though downtown dallas trick works
rpi edu \( william smythe \) subject detect use illegal cipher \? nntp posting host rpi edu organization rensselaer polytechnic institute , troy , ny lines 47 article camelot camelot bradley edu \( robert crawford \) writes jay fenton fenton kaleida com writes government tell encryption method one using without able decode traffic \? e , order accuse using unauthorized strong encryption technique would take keys escrow , run ciphertext draw blank thinking , also 's quite possible system transmits , clear , serial number device used way start tap , get serial number , use warrant first tap get key tap someone 's apparently using encryption , n't find prefix , 'll assume 's un authorized encryption scheme limited details released far , seems clipper chip system must employ sort public key cryptography otherwise , key management problems inherent ciphers would make system probably sort public key exchange takes place start call thats would identify private key data base \? means either nsa developed non rsa public key algorythm feds decided subsidize pkp rsadsi former rather exciting since keeping algorythm secret making chip widely exceptionally hard feds forced make order gain public acceptance could break rsa 's stranglehold public key crypto u impressions whole scheme seems instead trying ban strong crypto , trying co opt contention need keep algorythm secret protect security key registration suggests possible inherent weakness algorythm likely dont want anyone constructing black market devices dont keys registered anyone else notice q session , talk releasing keys people proper carefully dance around stating keys simply seem trying keep open obtaining keys without court order even though tapping phone line requires one also pick implicit threat accept 'll ban strong crypto outright \? dont trust plan plan oppose \( legal \) ways possible bill smythe
amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) subject tapped , code good organization intercon systems corporation herndon , va usa lines 17 distribution world reply amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) nntp posting host chaos intercon com x newsreader intercon tcp connect ii 1 1 tcmay netcom com \( timothy c may \) writes worse current unsecure system \? becomes much worse , course , government uses clinton clipper argue restrictions unapproved encryption \( main concern us , think camel 's nose tent , etc \) agree danger see , system say , political issue , technical one amanda walker intercon systems corporation
amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) subject secret algorithm clipper chip crypto key escrow organization intercon systems corporation herndon , va usa lines 21 distribution world reply amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) nntp posting host chaos intercon com keywords encryption , wiretap , clipper , key escrow , mykotronx x newsreader intercon tcp connect ii 1 1 gtoal news ibmpcug co uk \( graham toal \) writes try reading lines david strong hints 're angling nren next , \? honestly n't see conceivable meaning applying particular technology computer network intend used exclusion means encryption disagree , reason already standards place besides , even restrict encryption nren , cares \? internet commercial anyway nren university research \( read proposals 's data superhighway cray users , anything internet \) amanda walker intercon systems corporation
pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) subject new clipper chip proposal keywords encryption , privacy , individual rights , legalities , big brother organization totally unorganized lines 310 saw article posted local newsgroup n't seen , followup traffic relating groups groups subscribe , posting others read , check , comment , provide ideas handling sorts things verification accuracy lack accuracy article , accurate , find extremely disturbing , especially light various abuses ssn number regarding privacy , \( understand required ca renew drivers license , register car \) proposals regarding national identity cards , wiretap proposals , one simply wonders gems wings ready people government perhaps suggestions ideas preventing proposals acquiring force law would useful cost simply outweighs possible benefits , imo btw , reading makes think ideas prof denning promoting , even disturbing form said , comment , article follows begin included article note file also available via anonymous file transfer csrc ncsl nist gov directory pub nistnews via nist computer security bbs 301 948 5717 white house office press secretary immediate release april 16 , 1993 statement press secretary president today announced new initiative bring federal government together industry voluntary program improve security privacy telephone communications meeting legitimate needs law enforcement initiative involve creation new products accelerate development use advanced secure telecommunications networks wireless communications links long little dialogue private sector law enforcement community resolve tension economic vitality real challenges protecting americans rather use technology accommodate sometimes competing interests economic growth , privacy law enforcement , previous policies pitted government industry rights privacy law enforcement sophisticated encryption technology used years protect electronic funds transfer used protect electronic mail computer files encryption technology help americans protect business secrets unauthorized release personal information , also used terrorists , drug dealers , criminals state art microcircuit called clipper chip developed government engineers chip represents new approach encryption technology used new , relatively inexpensive encryption devices attached ordinary telephone scrambles telephone communications using encryption algorithm powerful many commercial use today new technology help companies protect proprietary information , protect privacy personal phone conversations prevent unauthorized release data transmitted electronically time technology preserves ability federal , state local law enforcement agencies intercept lawfully phone conversations criminals key escrow system established ensure clipper chip used protect privacy law abiding americans device containing chip two unique 2 keys , numbers needed authorized government agencies decode messages encoded device device manufactured , two keys deposited separately two key escrow data bases established attorney general access keys limited government officials legal authorization conduct wiretap clipper chip technology provides law enforcement new authorities access content private conversations americans demonstrate effectiveness new technology , attorney general soon purchase several thousand new devices addition , respected experts outside government offered access confidential details algorithm assess capabilities publicly report findings chip important step addressing problem encryption 's dual edge sword encryption helps protect privacy individuals industry , also shield criminals terrorists need clipper chip approaches provide law abiding citizens access encryption need prevent criminals using hide illegal activities order assess technology trends explore new approaches \( like key escrow system \) , president directed government agencies develop comprehensive policy encryption accommodates privacy citizens , including need employ voice data encryption business purposes ability authorized officials access telephone calls data , proper court legal order , necessary protect citizens effective timely use modern technology build national information infrastructure needed promote economic growth competitiveness american industry global marketplace need u companies manufacture export high technology products president directed early frequent consultations affected industries , congress groups advocate privacy rights individuals policy options developed 3 administration committed working private sector spur development national information infrastructure use new telecommunications computer technologies give americans unprecedented access information infrastructure high speed networks \( information superhighways \) transmit video , images , hdtv programming , huge data files easily today 's telephone system transmits voice since encryption technology play increasingly important role infrastructure , federal government must act quickly develop consistent , comprehensive policies regarding use administration committed policies protect americans' right privacy also protecting break law information provided accompanying fact sheet provisions president 's directive acquire new encryption technology also available additional details , call mat heyman , national institute standards technology , \( 301 \) 975 2758 questions answers clinton administration's telecommunications initiative q approach expand authority government agencies listen phone conversations \? clipper chip technology provides law enforcement new authorities access content private conversations americans q suppose law enforcement agency conducting wiretap drug smuggling ring intercepts conversation encrypted using device would decipher message \? would obtain legal authorization , normally court order , wiretap first place would present documentation authorization two entities responsible safeguarding keys obtain keys device used drug smugglers key split two parts , stored separately order ensure security key escrow system q run key escrow data banks \? two key escrow data banks run two independent entities point , department justice administration yet determine agencies oversee key escrow data banks q strong security device \? sure strong security \? system secure many voice encryption systems readily available today algorithm remain classified protect security key escrow system , willing invite independent panel cryptography experts evaluate algorithm assure potential users unrecognized vulnerabilities q whose decision propose product \? national security council , justice department , commerce department , key agencies involved decision approach endorsed president , vice president , appropriate cabinet officials q consulted \? congress \? industry \? going discussions congress industry encryption issues , expect discussions intensify carry review encryption policy briefed members congress industry leaders decisions related initiative q government provide hardware manufacturers \? government designed developed key access encryption microcircuits , providing microcircuits product manufacturers product manufacturers acquire microcircuits chip manufacturer produces q provides clipper chip \? mykotronx programs facility torrance , california , sell chip encryption device manufacturers programming function could licensed vendors future q buy one encryption devices \? expect several manufacturers consider incorporating clipper chip devices q administration unable find technological solution like one proposed , would administration willing use legal remedies restrict access powerful encryption devices \? fundamental policy question considered broad policy review key escrow mechanism provide americans encryption product secure , convenient , less expensive others readily available today , one piece must comprehensive approach encryption technology , administration developing administration saying , since encryption threatens public safety effective law enforcement , prohibit outright \( countries effectively done \) u saying every american , matter right , entitled unbreakable commercial encryption product false tension created assessment issue either proposition rather , concerns , fact , harmoniously balanced reasoned , balanced approach proposed clipper chip similar encryption techniques q decision indicate clinton administration 's policy toward encryption differ bush administration \? indicates understand importance encryption technology telecommunications computing committed working industry public interest groups find innovative ways protect americans' privacy , help businesses compete , ensure law enforcement agencies tools need fight crime terrorism q devices exportable \? devices use government hardware \? voice encryption devices subject export control requirements case case review export required ensure appropriate use devices true encryption devices one attractions technology protection give u companies operating home abroad mind , expect export licenses granted case case basis u companies seeking use devices secure communications abroad plan review possibility permitting wider exportability products end included article pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc 1 207 \( pat myrto \) seattle , wa else fails , try ! uunet ! pilchuck ! rwing ! pat wisdom two things infinite universe human stupidity , sure former albert einstien
smb research att com \( steven bellovin \) subject secret algorithm clipper chip crypto key escrow organization bell laboratories keywords encryption , wiretap , clipper , key escrow , mykotronx lines 14 article dorothy ibmpcug co uk , gtoal news ibmpcug co uk \( graham toal \) writes try reading lines david strong hints 're angling nren next , conceivable meaning applying particular technology computer network intend used exclusion means encryption umm beg differ phrase conceivable protocols , example , make explicit provision multiple encryption systems , pem \( 'd love see 'd mandate new system pem without disclosing \) mind , i'm saying multiple algorithms actually used relevant technologies certainly provide , certainly casts doubt choice words
rlglende netcom com \( robert lewis glendenning \) subject n't fight clipper chip , subvert replace ! organization netcom online communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) distribution na lines 35 clipper chip response fact business professional body position establish standard provide chipsets implement analog transmission systems rsa might position , active cooperation couple manufacturers cellular phones desktop phones large companies voice data comm business , contracts gov would used pressure , professionals crypto organizations , eff , etc put collective minds interests toward establishing crypto standard transmission , getting companies implement , might avoid government control otherwise , think happen us default gov n't probably strong enough foolish enough prevent strong crypt strong enough , may foolish enough , push clipper chip rsa gov enough \? , one , would gladly pay royalties via purchasing secure phones , provide algorithm implemented either sw hw publish , push make standard way pgp ripem becoming opposing , charging bunker nimble clever gov strong , clever lew lew glendenning rlglende netcom com perspective worth 80 iq points niels bohr \( somebody like \)
gdr bath ac uk \( james davenport \) subject based organization school mathematical sciences , university bath , uk lines 27 tried mail peter boucher , posted question , e mail bounced , , apologies interested trinomials form x x b 1 , read , , trinomials type x n ax 1 math scand 49 \( 1981 \) pp 145 155 458 mr , w , certain trinomials math scand 8 \( 1960 \) pp 65 70 , h , trinomials x n x 1 math scand 8 \( 1960 \) pp 121 126 , h , cubic factors certain trinomials math scand 53 \( 1983 \) pp 178 184 513 james davenport maths bath ac uk
kadie cs uiuc edu \( carl kadie \) subject clipper crap organization university illinois , dept comp sci , urbana , il lines 9 encryption 's dual edge sword encryption helps protect privacy individuals industry , also shield criminals terrorists need clipper chip necessity plea every infringement human freedom argument tyrants creed slaves william pitt carl kadie represent organization kadie cs uiuc edu
tcmay netcom com \( timothy c may \) subject n't fight clipper chip , subvert replace ! organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 distribution na lines 87 robert lewis glendenning \( rlglende netcom com \) wrote clipper chip response fact business professional body position establish standard provide chipsets implement analog transmission systems rsa might position , active cooperation couple manufacturers cellular phones desktop phones rsa gov enough \? , one , would gladly pay royalties via purchasing secure phones hear hear ! completely agree need work quickly establish alternatives government 's clinton clipper brad templeton others noted , clipper becomes enough phones enormous pressure make legal standard , become market standard well \( lot confusion proposal whether use clipper mandated , whether non escrow alternatives allowed , etc \) \( also unclear issues hard , illegal , make meet standard generate phony keys i'm sure next several weeks see issues groups \) meanwhile , 'd interested hear rsa data security 's reaction often criticized group licensing policies \( usual complaints mailsafe costing much , 125 , general issue software patents \) , may find rsa best thing 's mere licensing fee liberty may stake \? \( everyone wanted true security paid , say , 100 lifetime use rsa 's patents expire period 1998 2002 , rsa would make tons money happy , i'm sure small price pay 100 sounds like much , i'm sure actual terms could different , spread several years , whatever , 's small price pay \) strong crypto means strong privacy escrowing keys , sending copies keys large databases , splitting keys two 40 bit pieces , done secret non protocols algorithms , strong crypto ! whatever us may think abstract principles number theory applications , minor issue pales comparison potential dangers clipper proposal \( note said potential 'll presumably learn coming months \) rsa algorithms least public , analyzed attacked years , source code available \( better ensure deliberate trapdoors \) know number groups putting together voice encryption systems using shelf hardware \( like soundblaster boards pc \) celp type software new generations pcs , using fast 486s fast enough real time voice encryption combined diffie hellman key exchange , provide alternative clipper system course , n't really know administration proposes outlaw competing systems \( seems goal tapping terrorists , child pornographers , hilary bashers would thwarted low cost alternatives clipper defend child pornographers terrorists , limiting basic freedoms catch criminals american way things end soapbox mode \) suggest groups set aside differences may rsa \( n't look fully legal copy mailsafe ! \) instead work quickly rsa \? , jim \? , listening \? tim may p reserve right retract opinions turn rsa data security involved clipper proposal timothy c may crypto anarchy encryption , digital money , tcmay netcom com anonymous networks , digital pseudonyms , zero 408 688 5409 knowledge , reputations , information markets , w e aptos , ca black markets , collapse governments higher power 2 756839 public key pgp mailsafe available
brad clarinet com \( brad templeton \) subject secret algorithm clipper chip crypto key escrow organization clarinet communications corp keywords encryption , wiretap , clipper , key escrow , mykotronx lines 24 one system could work follows \) blank clips manufactured mykotronx vlsi number produced carefully shipped first escrow house programs chips half key , prints paper slip key half non secret chip serial number reams paper filed locked boxes vault , fuse burnt chip key unreadable chip goes next escrow house , thing done continues n escrow houses , perhaps , could 2 last one provides chip cellular phone maker yes , public key system would almost impossible handle might rsa , mean pkp n't get paid 1997 , pkp patent general concept public key encryption , well particular implementation known rsa brad templeton , clarinet communications corp sunnyvale , ca 408 296 0366
jhesse netcom com \( john hesse \) subject secret algorithm clipper chip crypto key escrow keywords encryption , wiretap , clipper , key escrow , mykotronx organization netcom online communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 34 article news intercon com amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) writes jhesse netcom com \( john hesse \) writes oh great wonderful news nobody listen except feds hey , 's better status quo far less worried feds tapping phone high school scanner get kicks eavesdropping cellular cordless phone calls really \? worried high school kids getting kicks scanners , compared feds , done , targets \? better status quo n't good enough , 'd say technology could implemented without back door open state know power corruption know abuse something happens guy amanda walker intercon systems corporation john hesse man , jhesse netcom com plan , moss beach , calif canal , bob
reeds alice att com \( jim reeds \) subject patents \( rc2 rc4 \) summary pop patent law article alice organization bell laboratories , murray hill nj lines 13 article matt med yale edu , matt wardsgi med yale edu \( matt healy \) writes bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de \( vesselin bontchev \) wrote eoe co uk \( andrew haley \) writes coca cola pepsi cola teach us surely , must use pop patent law examples discuss rc2 rc4 , would make sense consider case rc cola \? jim reeds
uni acs bu edu \( shaen bernhardt \) subject tapped , code good distribution na organization boston university , boston , , usa lines 103 article 1qpg8finn982 dns1 nmsu edu amolitor nmsu edu \( andrew molitor \) writes article tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com tcmay netcom com \( timothy c may \) writes worse current unsecure system \? becomes much worse , course , government uses clinton clipper argue restrictions unapproved encryption \( main concern us , think camel 's nose tent , etc \) pick mr may particular , course , n't kind domino theory \? one little country falls , neighbor surely follow , know , 're mining salt siberia turning captain crunch secret decoder rings wish could agree ask would private sector entity wish buy crypto system known least partially compromised \? \( key escrows instance \) would private sector entity wish buy crypto system properly evaluated \? \( e algorythm publically released \) answer seems obvious , would n't hardware compromised des example \( triple des better one \) suspicion prices drop dramatically non clipper systems 're trouble given clinton administration entirely stupid \( although 'd like think \) cannot believe failed realize know initiative fail , much crippled des never taken seriously way moves work coercion know little politics n't realize first step next move , makes sense otherwise next move , banning severly crippling crypto using clipper system easily justified would anyone want encryption unless trying subvert government \? 've provided secure alternative use go jail fined whatever reconcile administrations self proclaimed purpose providing law enforcement access encrypted data without making clipper system crypto available u \? simply ca n't , administration knows anyone wanted keep govt hair , drug dealing whatever , would buy still available non clipper systems n't sell clinton types short , ca n't stupid either banning non clipper crypto next answer administrations collective q potato think jumped fast \? know 's going big , 's better right face , noone buy stuff n't must know , think man , hell would jump gun \? interpretation andrew tim may , whose sig block may get busted new regime n't little melodramatic \? really wonder wit letter sent clinton white house office press secretary c presidential comment line \( fax \) \( 202 \) 456 2461 april 17 , 1993 sir madam must object strongly administrations evolving position encryption cryptography shocked clinton regimes increasing lean towards authoritarian approach regard privacy freedom government oversight day day life apparent drafted clipper chip proposal \( , incidentally , gaining big brother proposal \) either incredibly ignorant indeed anyone knowledgeable nuances cryptographic development research must understand key step development new algorithm , especially one destined standardization , full disclosure algorithm private academic sectors proper evaluation algorithm dep ends careful scrutiny sectors , scrutiny provide true public confidence security algorithm assumption new algorithm accepted based assurances experts without full disclosure plain ignorance addition , assumption algorithm technology , des , characterized key escrow lunacy seems easy step logic chain probable consumers prefer purchase equipment crippled government key escrow , matter tamper proof key escrows might cannot believe even least educated policy maker would failed realize flaws assume clipper chip proposal knew well difficulties selling crippled system private sector way proposal makes sense , chance coercion even language proposal makes painfully clear next logical step outlawing encryption devices hardware big brother chip unfortunately public large educated enough issue realize losing expect big brother proposal encounter little resistance american people efficiently duped pretty words like harmony , right encryption , voluntary phrase seems used often characterize clinton administration ca n't believe 's happening startling question colleague mine posed realization everyday becomes relevant reichstag fire planned \? concerned , signature shaen logan bernhardt uni acs bu edu uni acs bu edu public keys finger request public key archives pgp public keys cc iastate edu df610670f2467b99 97de2b5c3749148c sovereignty sign brutal past cryptography crime fight big brother proposal !
ebrandt jarthur claremont edu \( eli brandt \) subject detect use illegal cipher \? organization harvey mudd college , claremont , ca 91711 lines 25 article 1993apr17 clarinet com brad clarinet com \( brad templeton \) writes honour , suspect suddenly started using another level cryptography ca n't tap phone calls must something hide please sign warrant search house would need , though , make sure nobody access decent crypto first place probably ca n't tell voice triple voice get copy key criminal 's going use encryption cover clipper way avoid try prohibit strong encryption probably n't say , could try detect use illegal cypher transmitting clear statistical properties plaintext old fashioned wiretap could detect use pre encryption , would drastically increase measured entropy input would use techniques put voice tell nsa built feature blow mike , observe whether band thugs comes ceiling pgp 2 key finger e mail eli ebrandt jarthur claremont edu
hal cco caltech edu \( hal finney \) subject really work \? \( text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption \) organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 41 distribution na nntp posting host alumni caltech edu marc vanheyningen mvanheyn cs indiana edu writes main thing n't get whether chip implements symmetric asymmetric cryptographic techniques anybody know \? n't know , i'm willing speculate anyone several people suggested chips use public key cryptography another possibility use diffie hellman key exchange , algorithm similar effect dh allows ends agree session key use symmetric cryptography \( something like des \) encryption could back door keys work system \? see possibilities one dh like algorithm property session key deduced eavesdropper knows back door keys one \( possibly \) perhaps random numbers used dh back door key , another possibility , suggested earlier , chips simply broadcast session key , encrypted chip 's internal secret key system back door keys secret keys usable decrypting session key broadcast actually chip 's secret key n't need public key usage , identical secret back door key \( proposal seems straightforward \) still another possibility encryption algorithm used message dual key property , possession either two keys used decrypt one key would session key dh exchange , would back door key chip 's worth noting one proposals dorothy denning raised amazingly line discussion last november december variation diffie hellman third party would participate deriving session keys n't quite fit know clipper works hints early knowledge clipper \( whose thinking somehow synchronized clipper designers \) may diffie hellman minds hal finney
ebrandt jarthur claremont edu \( eli brandt \) subject battle joined organization harvey mudd college , claremont , ca 91711 lines 13 article 1993apr16 qualcomm com karn servo qualcomm com \( phil karn \) writes looks like dorothy denning 's wrong headed ideas gotten administration even sooner feared 'd lay long odds way around clinton n't pull plan bodily orifices nsa working years 's possible denning \( prominent people \) happened start arguing system , seems likely suggestion involved guess wrong , apologize pgp 2 key finger e mail eli ebrandt jarthur claremont edu
marc mit edu \( marc horowitz n1nzu \) subject source announcement organization massachusetts institute technology lines 38 distribution world nntp posting host oliver mit edu message nist clipper chip comes following address clipper csrc ncsl nist gov \( clipper chip announcement \) , asked , rather , asked computer telnet csrc ncsl nist gov 25 trying connected csrc ncsl nist gov escape character ' ' 220 first org sendmail 4 1 nist ready sat , 17 apr 93 20 42 56 edt expn clipper 250 csspab mail gw ncsl nist gov 250 denning cs georgetown edu 250 hoffman seas gwu edu 250 eff org 250 rotenberg cpsr org 250 rivest mit edu 250 stanford edu 250 aol com 250 sri com 250 jim rsa com 250 branstad tis com 250 csmes ncsl nist gov quit 221 first org closing connection connection closed well , n't interesting dorothy denning , mitch kapor , marc rotenberg , ron rivest , jim bidzos , others government , rsa , tis , cpsr , eff represented n't suppose anybody within organizations would care comment \? white house 's idea cruel joke peoples' \? marc marc horowitz n1nzu marc mit edu 617 253
silly ugcs caltech edu \( brad \) subject remote file system security organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 20 nntp posting host ugcs caltech edu light recent paranoia concerning government proposals , 'd love see unix based encryption scheme 1 \) kept files encrypted host machine \( say , files home directory \) 2 \) used key system could compromised eavesdropping modem line seems would require modifications shell program way telling whether file encrypted , among things 'd love know potential security holes system system exist \? made easy use readily available , think would good thing \( tm \) realize would probably involve putting nice front end readily available secure encryption scheme , done thanks ear , brad
jef netcom com \( jef poskanzer \) subject secret algorithm clipper chip crypto key escrow x face \) , q \( nx 8 c \) \? , \( x 0d jm \( q l b8 ! ha ef b 4 f \? , \( , ur j reply jef poskanzer jef netcom com organization esoteric lines 22 brad clarinet com \( brad templeton \) yes , public key system would almost impossible handle might rsa , mean pkp n't get paid 1997 , pkp patent general concept public key encryption , well particular implementation known rsa hmm , first thought 're using diffie hellman session key exchange , equivalent however , diffie hellman patent , like hellman merkle one public key systems , claims equivalents , basic point stands interestingly , quote jim bidzos showed media real soon announcement , sounded pissed maybe n't yet realized pkp might struck gold \? get someone admit general scheme clipper uses jef jef poskanzer jef netcom com jef well sf ca us object never serves function image name rene
whughes lonestar utsa edu \( william w hughes \) subject tapped , code good nntp posting host lonestar utsa edu organization university texas san antonio distribution na lines 22 article 1qpg8finn982 dns1 nmsu edu amolitor nmsu edu \( andrew molitor \) writes article tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com tcmay netcom com \( timothy c may \) writes tim may , whose sig block may get busted new regime n't little melodramatic \? two weeks ago registered concern programming conducted student organisation university texas san antonio result , interrogated police , also attempted create positive identification file \( photo , , etc \) refused permit , filed complaint university administration vice president business affairs \( campus police \) stated interest legal constitutional implications actions greatest threat facing citizens united states decade 90s united states government levels federal , state , local opinions mine , reserve right deny time
ptrei bistromath mitre org \( peter trei \) subject fifth amendment passwords nntp posting host bistromath mitre org organization mitre corporation lines 33 article 1993apr17 sugra uucp ken sugra uucp \( kenneth ng \) writes article 1993apr16 linus mitre org ptrei bistromath mitre org \( peter trei \) writes judge grant immunity whatever may learned key keyphrase confess deliberately evading copyright file encoded keyphrase contains illegal scans copyrighted peanuts strips judge cp oh get \? i'm saying wo n't , ca n't \( even n't \) , legal mechanism use \? crossposting misc legal \? hm , could another court try via bypass double jeopardy amendment like lapd trial \? ie judge state judge , federal judge justification trail lapd officers tried first state california charges police brutality , secondly federal government depriving rk civil rights different crime scenario outline similar oliver north trial ollie confessed treason \( aiding enemy us \) senate hearings , immunity team later prosecute criminal charges reports 's immunized testimony 's lawyer brought probability least someone team heard senate testimony , strong factor prosecution , one reasons still walking around free today peter trei ptrei mitre org
mit edu \( bill sommerfeld \) subject source announcement organization massachusetts institute technology lines 112 distribution world nntp posting host bill cat mit edu reply marc mit edu 's message 18 apr 1993 01 19 38 gmt telnet csrc ncsl nist gov 25 trying connected csrc ncsl nist gov escape character ' ' 220 first org sendmail 4 1 nist ready sat , 17 apr 93 20 42 56 edt expn clipper 250 csspab mail gw ncsl nist gov 250 denning cs georgetown edu 250 hoffman seas gwu edu 250 eff org 250 rotenberg cpsr org 250 rivest mit edu 250 stanford edu 250 aol com 250 sri com 250 jim rsa com 250 branstad tis com 250 csmes ncsl nist gov quit 221 first org closing connection connection closed note also telnet csmes ncsl nist gov 25 trying 129 6 54 2 connected csmes ncsl nist gov escape character ' ' 220 csmes ncsl nist gov sendmail 4 1 nist \( rbj \) ready sat , 17 apr 93 23 08 58 edt expn 250 mcnulty ecf ncsl nist gov 250 gilbert 250 dennis branstad branstad 250 robert rosenthal 250 gene troy troy 250 st1 ncsl nist gov 250 dennis dds 250 st1 ncsl nist gov telnet mail gw ncsl nist gov 25 trying 129 6 48 199 connected mail gw ncsl nist gov escape character ' ' 220 mail gw ncsl nist gov sendmail 4 1 rbj jck 3 ready sat , 17 apr 93 23 06 50 edt expn csspab 250 burrows ecf 250 mcnulty ecf 250 bill colvin colvin 250 dockmaster ncsc mil 250 john 250 cto citicorp com 250 mitre org 250 gallagher dockmaster ncsc mil 250 cindy rand postmaster dot gov 250 walker tis com 250 willis rand org 250 eddie 250 cris castro castro 250 vnet ibm com telnet st1 ncsl nist gov 25 trying 129 6 54 91 connected st1 ncsl nist gov escape character ' ' 220 st1 ncsl nist gov sendmail 4 1 nbs rbj 11 ready sat , 17 apr 93 23 13 43 edt expn 250 miles expn 250 stuart quit 221 st1 ncsl nist gov closing connection connection closed foreign host telnet ecf ncsl nist gov 25 trying 129 6 48 2 connected ecf ncsl nist gov escape character ' ' 220 ecf ncsl nist gov tgv smtp service ready expn burrows 250 burrows , james burrows expn mcnulty 250 mcnulty , lynn mcnulty quit 221 ecf ncsl nist gov tgv smtp service complete whois h rs net first org national institute standards technology \( first dom \) 225 nist gaithersburg , md domain name first org administrative contact wack , john p \( \) wack enh nist gov \( 301 \) 975 3411 \( \) 879 3411 technical contact , zone contact hunt , craig w \( \) hunt enh nist gov \( 301 \) 975 \( \) 879 record last updated 17 dec 91 domain servers listed order dove nist gov 129 6 16 2 ames arc nasa gov 128 102 18 3 registration services host contains internet information \( networks , asn 's , domains , 's \) please use whois server nic ddn mil milnet information
jebright magnus acs ohio state edu \( james r ebright \) subject secret algorithm clipper chip crypto key escrow keywords encryption , wiretap , clipper , key escrow , mykotronx nntp posting host top magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 25 article brad clarinet com \( brad templeton \) writes greatest danger escrow database , kept disk , would chance complete copy could somehow leak course 's hard backup however , think consequences backup data warrant comes worse consequences secret backup data n't warrant comes , effectively secure crypto secret backups kept effectively crypto thus , poster arguing crypto better secure crypto data n't warrant comes , government use normal law enforcement techniques catch crooks bad \? btw , bugging n't yet normal law enforcement technique privacy clipper , become normal technique jim information farming addr phone finger ohio state university jebright magnus acs ohio state edu \( \( 0 0 \) \) jim ebright e mail jre osu edu \( \)
athena mit edu \( seth \) subject source announcement organization massachvsetts institvte technology lines 28 distribution world nntp posting host mit edu also note \( branstad tis com walker tis com \) whois h rs net tis dom trusted information systems , inc \( tis dom \) washington road , route 97 , md domain name tis com administrative contact walker , stephen \( \) walker tis com \( 301 \) 854 technical contact , zone contact , david \( \) dave tis com \( 301 \) 854 record last updated 02 jul 92 domain servers listed order tis com 192 33 112 100 la tis com 192 5 49 8 dockmaster infamous address seth athena mit edu road hell paved good intentions
lynx dac northeastern edu \( michael \) subject detect use illegal cipher \? organization northeastern university , boston , 02115 , usa lines 19 article news claremont edu ebrandt jarthur claremont edu \( eli brandt \) writes probably n't say , could try detect use illegal cypher transmitting clear statistical properties plaintext old fashioned wiretap could detect use pre encryption , would drastically increase measured entropy input would use techniques put voice way detect pre encryption may defeated one transformation spectrum encrypted signal adding pre arranged \( beginning communication \) function think say , fft encrypted signal thinking pgp2 1 public key finger lynx dac northeastern edu
strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) subject tapped , code good organization dsi uscrpac distribution na lines 43 article bu edu uni acs bu edu \( shaen bernhardt \) writes wish could agree ask would private sector entity wish buy crypto system known least partially compromised \? \( key escrows instance \) would private sector entity wish buy crypto system properly evaluated \? \( e algorythm publically released \) answer seems obvious , would n't hardware compromised des example \( triple des better one \) follows opinion asserted truth flames , please comes background 20 years senior corporate staff executive two fortune 50 companies 'd happy use crypto system supplied nsa business , told secure des , particular resistant attempts japanese , french , competitive companies governments break 'd happy even escrowed keys , provided happy bona fides escrow agencies \( federal reserve would certainly satisfy , would something set one big 8 accounting firms \) 'd trust nsa president stated trap doors 'd even happier committee independent experts examined thing seal secrecy reported back secure 'd trust something nsa long 'd trust something swiss anybody japanese may seem surprising , suggest corporations would feel way many \( pick one \) corporations attitude nsa part government support government , one famous ceo put one day perspective another point view david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted
tuinstra sunspot ece clarkson edu soe \( dwight tuinstra \) subject wh announcement reply tuinstra sunspot ece clarkson edu soe organization sun microsystems , inc lines 70 nntp posting host sunspot ece clarkson edu cc tuinstra q consulted \? congress \? industry \? going discussions congress industry encryption issues , expect discussions intensify carry review encryption policy briefed members congress industry leaders decisions related initiative congress \? \? 're playing politics talk cpsr , academia , public , internet users \? heard top design , top democracy \? \? whose state district chip manufacturers \? q administration unable find technological solution like one proposed , would administration willing use legal remedies restrict access powerful encryption devices \? fundamental policy question considered broad policy review bs key escrow system administration saying , since encryption threatens public safety effective law enforcement , prohibit outright \( countries effectively done \) 'll provide easily compromised version jq public u saying every american , matter right , entitled unbreakable commercial encryption product maybe need cryptographic rights amendment false tension created assessment issue either proposition rather , concerns , fact , harmoniously balanced reasoned , balanced approach proposed clipper chip similar encryption techniques nice \? also , article leland stanford edu , arc leland stanford edu \( andrew richard conway \) writes p ca n't work us government n't want sell overseas , rather easy us interests decode , make perfect tool industrial military espionage anyone stupid enough buy false sense security notice mention anywhere safety non americans repeat \? appears \( story looks pretty convincing , \) justice department stole case tracking system , modified , distributed friendly police agencies around world , eg canadian course , doubt swore scout 's honor kind intelligence , 'd want swamped commercial traffic \? dwight tuinstra best tuinstra sandman ece clarkson edu tolerable tuinstrd craft camp clarkson edu homo sapiens planetary cancer \? \? news six
rdippold qualcomm com \( ron asbestos dippold \) subject battle joined originator rdippold qualcom qualcomm com nntp posting host qualcom qualcomm com organization qualcomm , inc , san diego , ca lines 19 article 1993apr16 qualcomm com karn servo qualcomm com \( phil karn \) writes looks like dorothy denning 's wrong headed ideas gotten administration even sooner feared administration far along , possible government working using prime pump , speak , judas goat \? whether paid , gullible , , n't really matter might also possible nsa whoever idea quite , promoting \( denning , et al \) new opportunity new administration wants spend money espionage bush whatever , i'm sure cause effect order totally obvious lose drug free proud ribbon two days later , catch neighborhood kid smoking
ptrei bistromath mitre org \( peter trei \) subject battle joined nntp posting host bistromath mitre org organization mitre corporation lines 15 article news claremont edu ebrandt jarthur claremont edu \( eli brandt \) writes article 1993apr16 qualcomm com karn servo qualcomm com \( phil karn \) writes looks like dorothy denning 's wrong headed ideas gotten administration even sooner feared 'd lay long odds way around clinton n't pull plan bodily orifices nsa working years first heard rumors similar government proposal \( risks digest \? \? \? \) 1987 1988 peter trei ptrei mitre org
dan mckinnon dan mckinnon canrem com subject clipper chip reply dan mckinnon dan mckinnon canrem com organization canada remote systems distribution sci lines 30 bit lately , though math unknown , found interesting thought would post article found saturday , april 17 , 1993 toronto star protect privacy washington \( reuter \) president bill clinton announced yesterday plan plant new clipper chip every government telephone computer line prevent eavesdropping eventually chips , developed government 's national institute standards technology , would used commercial private electronics communication users white house said assure privacy , device containing encryption devices would assigned two unique keys numbers needed government agencies decode messages attorney general assigned task arranging keys deposited two key escrow data bases access would limited government officials legal authorization conduct wiretap , white house said statement 30 dan mckinnon canada remote systems toronto , ontario 416 629 7000 629 7044
tcmay netcom com \( timothy c may \) subject source announcement organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 lines 37 marc horowitz n1nzu \( marc mit edu \) wrote message nist clipper chip comes following address clipper csrc ncsl nist gov \( clipper chip announcement \) , asked , rather , asked computer telnet csrc ncsl nist gov 25 list name elided brevity well , n't interesting dorothy denning , mitch kapor , marc rotenberg , ron rivest , jim bidzos , others government , rsa , tis , cpsr , eff represented n't suppose anybody within organizations would care comment \? white house 's idea cruel joke peoples' \? know least one person list says first heard clipper friday morning newspaper ! another already fired letter protest nist point \? suspect list , interesting various reasons , represent cabal put proposal together , yes others , may nothing mailing list people get crypto related announcements nsa , er , mean nist tim may timothy c may crypto anarchy encryption , digital money , tcmay netcom com anonymous networks , digital pseudonyms , zero 408 688 5409 knowledge , reputations , information markets , w e aptos , ca black markets , collapse governments higher power 2 756839 public key pgp mailsafe available
zeev ccc amdahl com \( ze'ev wurman \) subject security clipper \? organization amdahl corp , sunnyvale ca lines 26 nntp posting host key amdahl com seems discussions clipper security almost irrelevant cannot choose key , use key chosen , security whole universe users good \( bad \) security vlsi technologies inc trivial effort run ciphertext agains keys ever manufactured talking 1 100 million keys ever manufactured key secure wish , nobody cares anyway \( someone would convince shipping docks , att others \( remember chips ship key dealer going submit authorities eventually \) 'd bit happier really believe various governments \( including \) wo n't full lists keys ever manufactured \? miss something \? opinions , quite obviously ze'ev wurman email zeev key amdahl com zeev ccc amdahl com organization amdahl corp landing parkway \( 581 \) , ca phone \( 510 \) 623 \( office \) fax \( 510 \) 770 \( attn zeev wurman \)
warlord mit edu \( derek atkins \) subject old key registration idea organization massachusetts institute technology lines 40 nntp posting host hodge mit edu reply pcw access digex com 's message 16 apr 1993 15 31 24 0400 begin pgp signed message article access digex net pcw access digex com \( peter \) writes 2 \) system vulnerable simple phone swapping attacks like criminals quickly figure go town depends possible phone sends serial number clear specified interval listener needs get sn , get key swapping phones n't problem \( gov't , \) still know line belongs , watch line see sn , get key sn either case , think need look bit deeper \) mw well , think understood major problem lot people n't trust key escrow stuff , fact algorithms classified , yes , lot needs looked closer ! derek pgp 2 key available upon request key server pgp public keys toxicwaste mit edu begin pgp signature version 2 2 end pgp signature derek atkins , mit '93 , electrical engineering computer science secretary , mit student information processing board \( sipb \) mit media laboratory , speech research group warlord mit edu pp asel n1nwh
earle isolar tujunga ca us \( greg earle \) subject pem mime organization personal usenet site , tujunga , ca usa lines 54 distribution world article nigel msen com garnet msen com \( edward \) writes w c newell jr \( u washington edu \) wrote global multimedia e mail solution , must definition minimum service level , mime provide \( yet \) internet invest software , people need see content would suggest 50 attractive mime formatted news messages day would sufficient get people thinking adding mime support news readers , esp content really worth imho , long way go unix specific , , etc reach service levels commercial platforms ought definition , consisting known object data types rules handling , included transport specification document yes also long way go mac , pc , windows ready handle sheer volume news mail many unix specific tools able cope choice make damn thing fast enough keep flood , bet fast enough wins ed , usual , makes good point one time friend mine sun sent e mail composed using sun openwindows 3 mailtool handles \( non mime \) attachments like since n't use mailtool , manually save , cut paste , uudecode actual attachment got inconsiderable amount time spent audio file original message mail headers uuencoded data resulting audio message single sentence transcribed 135 character message sent sentence plain text , e mail would around 250 bytes , would taken 3 seconds process instead , 32k took least minute complete waste \( \) time bandwidth , far i'm concerned sending plain text still efficient method transmission , given transport mechanism shudder think would happen everyone started posting usenet articles audio files instead plain text ! meltdown net predicted ! film eleven ! back mono ! \( sub thread longer anything pem administrative policy , 've redirected followups back comp mail mime greg greg earle phone \( 818 \) 353 8695 fax \( 818 \) 353 1877 internet earle isolar tujunga ca us uucp isolar ! earle elroy jpl nasa gov k ! elroy ! isolar ! earle
tu ac \( \) subject need source feal encrytion algorithm organization technical university , austria lines 12 nntp posting host tu ac x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 hi ! interested source feal encryption algorithm someone know get source , find documentation feal thanks advance ciao please email ! ! !
ygoland wright seas ucla edu \( jester \) subject n't fight clipper chip , subvert replace ! distribution na lines 44 clipper chip dorthy denning et lets ignore moment fundamental question government stop using encryption \? ignoring moment question patented processes \( public keys \) , government stop using encryption process \? answer yes freedom country truly gone time get guns lawyers \( depending upon causes damage \) however assuming still encrypt things please , cares clipper chip \? far i'm concerned phone line insecure period n't care encrypt 10 ways sunday , n't encrypting , n't trust attitude everyone else instead worrying clipper chip , simply connect computer feed voice single , process , encrypt , transmit phone guy hand reverse ca n't work say \? standard say \? obviously never uses pgp anyone expects government protect freedoms kidding protect freedoms one final thought addressed eff 1 support implementation form encryption encryption key must revealed \? 2 , \? , \? 3 specific actions planning take either support stop proposal \? 4 support proposal , alternatives offer \? jester proof windows virus widespread , eats disk space , slows computer , takes control computer , performs disk access random times , displays silly messages screen , randomly crashes computer vesselin
tuinstra sunspot ece clarkson edu soe \( dwight tuinstra \) subject wh proposal police point view reply tuinstra sunspot ece clarkson edu soe organization sun microsystems , inc lines 55 nntp posting host sunspot ece clarkson edu might pay start looking proposal might mean police agency might bad idea , ok , suppose ny state police want tap suspect 's phone need warrant , like old days unlike old days , need \( \) get two federal agencies give two parts key , happens 's tiff two escrow houses \? posession release keys becomes political bargaining chit state lower level police agencies watch big boys play politics , potentially good leads disappear , lives property lost , statutes limitations run , etc mention moderately clever person suspects police buying new phones faster tap requests processed using stolen ones turing police come arrest transmitting without dialing license \? 's also security problems within escrow house , requests key disclosure authenticated \? put enough safeguards kind bureaucrats activists feel comfortable , might take long time get key even request approved , key going disclosed \? encrypted clipper type chip transmission \? bureaucracy size federal government , necessary size , data traffic projected volume , 's going lot weak links many kinds problems open public expert scrutiny \? furthermore , feds might leery handing completed keys around , even state police agencies trust security issue would especially acute issue state 's police mishandled key , resulting lawsuits , financial settlements , political embarassment , feds implement way \( b \) federal agency gets keys , performs tap , turns results ny state police let 's say 's causing problems clinton aid urban areas proposal happens turf war going state cops justice department case , keys political chit , extra player game tap 's tapes another bargaining chit , state police lose understand \( legal \) wiretaps quite expensive maintain scenario \( b \) , pays bill \? dwight tuinstra best tuinstra sandman ece clarkson edu tolerable tuinstrd craft camp clarkson edu homo sapiens planetary cancer \? \? news six
bena cs monash edu au \( ben \) subject text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption organization computer science , monash university , australia x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 12 andrew richard conway \( arc leland stanford edu \) wrote p ca n't work us government n't want sell overseas , rather easy us interests decode , make perfect tool industrial military espionage anyone stupid enough buy false sense security notice mention anywhere safety non americans n't forget , country would n't let russians buy apple ii 's security concerns ben \( bena bruce cs monash edu au \)
jfc athena mit edu \( john f carr \) subject n't fight clipper chip , subvert replace ! organization massachusetts institute technology lines 22 distribution na nntp posting host achates mit edu article ygoland wright ygoland wright seas ucla edu \( jester \) writes ignoring moment question patented processes \( public keys \) , government stop using encryption process \? following precedent areas , government likely put tax encryption technology tax imposed , becomes federal matter unlicensed cryptographic tool bring batf fbi tossing grenades house \( batf appears logical agency enforce regulations federal control , tobacco , firearms based taxes \) look fcc wo n't allow sale receive bands supposed private nothing desire prevent harmful interference government make radio receiver illegal makes think wo n't claim right control encryption \? john carr \( jfc athena mit edu \)
graham toal gtoal gtoal com subject battle joined originator gtoal pizzabox demon co uk nntp posting host pizzabox demon co uk reply graham toal gtoal gtoal com organization cuddlehogs anonymous lines 27 article news claremont edu ebrandt jarthur claremont edu \( eli brandt \) writes article 1993apr16 qualcomm com karn servo qualcomm com \( phil karn \) writes looks like dorothy denning 's wrong headed ideas gotten administration even sooner feared 'd lay long odds way around clinton n't pull plan bodily orifices nsa working years 's possible denning \( prominent people \) happened start arguing system , seems likely suggestion involved guess wrong , apologize i'm sure dorothy denning honest person would n't lie us simply think question ask involvement , careful phrase way evasion true wholly misleading answer country , mi5 experts answering questions instance british journalist \( \) killed south america couple years ago parliament asked mi5 employee turns afterwards n't paid , therefore n't employee could equally said n't agent went abroad private business brief mi5 , interviewed length return g
steve b access digex com \( steve brinich \) subject text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 11 distribution na nntp posting host access digex net dead giveaway repeated new plan aimed criminals , drug dealers , terrorists , etc 'd think tactic would obvious trot yet decade sarah rest brady bunch using destroy second amendment , evidently control nuts feel serve one time far export needs american companies concerned , could almost believe plan saddle us industry hidden sabotaged algorithm invented cabal japanese lobbyists
pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) subject tapped , code good article rwing 2073 distribution na organization totally unorganized lines 202 article 1993apr17 clarinet com brad clarinet com \( brad templeton \) writes article tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com tcmay netcom com \( timothy c may \) writes getting court order reveal key also makes decipherable past conversations \( may tape , disk , \) , understand proposal could wrong , 've seen mention session keys escrowed entities true theory practice \? technology cellular phones probably spread spectrum quite difficult record crypttext without key frequency path depends key , understand , could made effectively impossible record expert cryptography science , basic things seem evident , things clinton clipper address pertain abuse , conclusions based seen membership group \( except two notable persons \) agree anything bad possible government theory , almost always ends happening fact key make abuse impossible question authority , remember power corrupt think one regard whole idea sense expanded include data forms , data transfer stored data treated expanded \( expansion almost impossible stop , using clipper precident \) hint proposal , remember said , please bear , articulate , take words say others could say much briefly thank hits land record telco access telco n't supposed give without warrant 's rule today suggested hint proposal similar proposals considered forms encryptions data transfer , data files , , largely dependent thing accepted flies think one would wise treat manner one would \( \) gets expanded areas cellular phones think guaranteed happen , proposal gets salami politics used several areas , certain used government going easily give idea able whenever want order proven rather flimsy guarantee case warrants , always material , force one give key , sit jail forever periodically renewed contempt charges denying justice system information , ability lock someone guilty \( refuses divulge means access info protected fifth one forced perform acts would result incriminating evidence \) , blocking restrictions private encryption preventing legitimate law enforcement make illegitimate law enforcement bunch difficult especially fishing expeditions without target 's knowlege n't give right safe non negotiable , clinton co know \( probably quietly developed thing , figuring get far , ram \) come consulted could roughly described us \? cannot though , ban schemes ensure exclusive use hence nice pr document try reassure everyone n't buy government really earned kind trust , past future \? secure free , one must keep government honest way make abuse impossible , even , evidence would admissible , think , unless judge ordered think even interception crypttext without warrant would illegal cops ca n't record today 's plain cellular calls ask judge , hey , permission listen tapes \? \? \? one could use information gained use keys \( saved last case finished \) means \( master key , backdoor , easily broken algorithm \) find evidence , given judge , would authorize tap would n't possible otherwise common manner abuse wiretaps past local cops , might workable keep honest , feds workaround somehow , bet anyone really believe example , government use scheme nsa cannot listen scanning keywords either easily defeated realtime via 'master key' \? sure n't whole thing sounds like something eliminate need use old fashioned police work build case past , eavesdropping rather easy \( without court order \) think law enforcement community become bit spoiled , resist changes require revert using old fashioned detective work find somewhat surprising coming bunch cares much civil individual rights , puts people first question put people first \? innards revealed , one sure exist 'master key' use nsa , etc \( keyword scan , etc conversations routinely monitor , without specific court order \) \? remember , cellular phone temporary bet far heard police telling people tapped nothing incriminating found keep simply keeping keys file \? awhile , would quite collection kept especially folks deem get one key , would reduce search space lot , unless rsa scheme remember nixon years \? need court orders really slowed , n't \? unless escrow accounts government controlled \( fat chance ! see one ending , say treasury , justice \) \) could worth serious bucks folks get keys competitor 's clinton clipper \( idea expanded used non government encryption \) enough bucks would get one keys innards algorithm perhaps important concern , given past government behavior problems worse , course , government uses clinton clipper argue restrictions unapproved encryption \( main concern us , think camel 's nose tent , etc \) yes , major concern , think think win 99 5 usa use system n't even care cautious 5 's left n't catch really smart crooks anyway john , would retarded realize likely wiretapped , away tapped phone murder plans 's 's jail hard believe , true one expanded data storage encryption \? bet clipper accepted , next agenda even hinted proposal read carefully expect well , got nothing hide fine using argument , one object video cameras installed every room one 's home granted expansion idea principle holds private stuff remain private , even govt fishing expedition laws rules may change future comes fed government , safeguards pretty meaningless , want get something n't work hard give rather rights , establish bad , please price could hell pay , later scheme succeed without laws forbidding , people would fight lot harder like enough dropping called digital telephony proposal , according rumours however meaning complex , since still want get crypttext telco systems , requires bit work people would fight laws forbidding , , say two years , situation must addressed , added reasonable restriction bother hide etc please n't buy clinton clipper good , make public many people exchange ideas examine , rather isolated \( respected \? \? perhaps certain professor likes key banks would one selected experts seem expand ideas person advocating , recall \) would anybody know experts examine end used clipper chip , kept secret \? perhaps clipper use crippled version \( 'master key' provision \) , features present version subjected study evaluation experts chooses \? government \? conflict interest \) n't requirement decent encryption scheme effectiveness reduced widely known \? lead believe one assume side everything , except key \( \) recall ideas presented group rejected requirement exists algorithm secret another question since safe bet clipper thing would used government security , regarding real secure good enough common folk think would like see full description \( pr non statement \) good enough means \? think saying strong , good enough really means excuse countries restrictions acceptable countries bill rights constitution \( people , governments , countries often regard envy rights privileges \) expect retain rights protections , must allow gotta thing allready bill rights pretty much torn shreds permit yet another , instead trying repair damage crime problem may number causes , many rights safeguards one broken court system poor police work much cause many rights \( disregarding addressing root causes crime , etc \) btw suggest attack clinton , believe would going ballistic seriously proposed thing another step gradual erosion rights constitution bill rights last couple decades non stop series end runs around protections constitution stop good time , n't late allready brad templeton , clarinet communications corp sunnyvale , ca 408 296 0366 pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc 1 207 \( pat myrto \) seattle , wa else fails , try ! uunet ! pilchuck ! rwing ! pat wisdom two things infinite universe human stupidity , sure former albert einstien
al escom com \( al donaldson \) subject tapped , code good reply al escom com \( al donaldson \) organization escom corp , va \( usa \) distribution na lines 16 amolitor nmsu edu \( andrew molitor \) writes yes , evil guys fbi probably , effort , abuse system got news , evil guys fbi decide want persecute , 're gonna , richard nixon kind toy , would n't send people watergate 's really issue real issue whether used justify ban individuals' use private \( e , anything else \) encryption methods unrelated question n't term clipper , neat , already taken intergraph \? al
mrr scss3 cl msu edu \( mark riordan \) subject source random bits unix workstation organization michigan state university lines 18 nntp posting host scss3 cl msu edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 bennett todd salomon brothers inc , ny \( bet sbi com \) wrote however , unless missed something , source suggested \( aside hardware rng \) seems available , intruder , unix fresh booted , buffers related network traffic believe solution basically uses strategy , without requiring reach kernel sources statistics filesystems \( easily quickly obtained \) output system call also exec finger one favorite heavily used systems , though take several seconds cf source code ripem ripem msu edu mark r
schneier chinet chi il us \( bruce schneier \) subject open letter mr clinton organization chinet public access unix lines 13 article netcom com strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes 's simple way convert clipper proposal unexceptionable one make voluntary get high quality secure nsa classified technology agree escrow key otherwise long means use encryption , i'm sold bruce
eldar fraser sfu ca \( danny eldar \) subject need help ! ! keywords firewall gateway model , kerberos organization simon fraser university , burnaby , b c , canada lines 14 currently writing paper computer protocols security would appreciate help currently insight topics except relate security security network please references , books , faqs contact persons names internet addresses topics interested 1 firewall gateway model implemented internet gateways 2 kerberos authentication service please send private e mail eldar sfu ca post board thanks lot , danny
holland cs colostate edu \( douglas craig holland \) subject tapped , code good distribution na nntp posting host beethoven cs colostate edu organization colorado state university , computer science department lines 50 article 1qpg8finn982 dns1 nmsu edu amolitor nmsu edu \( andrew molitor \) writes article tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com tcmay netcom com \( timothy c may \) writes worse current unsecure system \? becomes much worse , course , government uses clinton clipper argue restrictions unapproved encryption \( main concern us , think camel 's nose tent , etc \) pick mr may particular , course , n't kind domino theory \? one little country falls , neighbor surely follow , know , 're mining salt siberia turning captain crunch secret decoder rings surely hypothesis relying least wild assumptions take face value fort asked cook something 's pretty secure , key escrowed neatly , government plans sell thing , reasons state yes , evil guys fbi probably , effort , abuse system got news , evil guys fbi decide want persecute , 're gonna , 're gonna hate fact , fbi n't want listen phone calls , , 're using triple des , 'll get parabolic microphone point head e mail , ca n't break pgp encryption , 'll call one tempest trucks read electromagnetic emmisions computer terminal note measures protect tempest surveillance still classified , far know pretty clearly effort government exactly 're saying 're typical governments , 's , full holes compromises typical government , 's bad , could worse interpretation andrew tim may , whose sig block may get busted new regime n't little melodramatic \? new regime comes fruition , make sure protect first amendment rights asserting second amendment rights doug holland
bill celestial com \( bill campbell \) subject tapped , code good organization celestial software , mercer island , wa distribution na lines 53 1993apr17 clarinet com brad clarinet com \( brad templeton \) writes occurs get wiretap order , escrow houses release code cops , code longer secure good point ! 's hands cops , sure time good , security good escrow houses expect cops honest ! 're risks face every day media dumps time blames sorts discrimination , brutality expect human \? besides lots cases police abuses ranging protection outright robbery \( worked c local radio shack alarm company heard cops responding call audio pickup store \) effectively means perform wiretap , end wiretap , obligated inform tap performed , replace \( free \) clipper chip cellular phone code known escrow houses would know big brother listening really want let know \? police normally reveal every tap even charges laid \? many ways , would positive step judges set time limits warrants , assume end time limit renew replace chip 's go scheme , sure agree i'm completely anything makes easier government encroach rights individuals founders country spent lot effort limiting power government specifying exactly governments rights \( n't include gov't spy every bedroom \) imho , entirely many things going today designed preserve government organism expense individuals look around reread 1984 many early heinlein books n't many parallels thought police \( spell waco texas \? \) , heinlein 's \? bill internet bill celestial com bill campbell celestial software uucp ! ! camco ! bill east mercer way uunet ! camco ! bill mercer island , wa \( 206 \) 947 speed costs money fast want go \?
holland cs colostate edu \( douglas craig holland \) subject secret algorithm clipper chip crypto key escrow nntp posting host beethoven cs colostate edu organization colorado state university , computer science department keywords encryption , wiretap , clipper , key escrow , mykotronx lines 53 article netcom com strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes though may argue nose camel , 's worth noting government proposal limited scrambled telephony used purpose , extend electronic mail file encryption , improvement current mass produced standard civilian technology , exceptions , limited easy break note big issue feds continued ability wiretap go deep end long secure crypto e mail files , let 's focus one question asked release whether proposal limited telephony , government intends expand though share many concerns expressed , find proposal less threatening many others , since right americans secure telephony , jerk pair clip leads goat eavesdrop would also plug security hole cellular cordless phones reading lines , infer system highly secure without access keys would meet needs u businesses confronted rich powerful adversaries , including french japanese security services rich japanese companies allows nsa make available better stuff protecting law enforcement needs legitimate u corporations trust nsa , would delighted high security system certified , even price depositing keys escrow see difficulty creating reliable escrow corporations secrets attorneys every day week , system worked pretty well point view fair starting point concerns need addressed , including reliability escrows return get access high security crypto many suggested des systems may breakable nsa hence others similarly skilled endowed least good possibility \( checked \) proposed system breakable n't , trapdoors , government get keys pursuant legitimate court order thus protect legitimate communications economic adversaries , still able eavesdrop crooks pursuant court order let ask would trust richard nixon crypto keys \? would n't doug holland
smb research att com \( steven bellovin \) subject clipper chip technical details organization bell laboratories lines 121 received following two notes martin hellman details clipper work posted permission implications details fascinating date sat , 17 apr 93 23 05 23 pdt martin hellman hellman isl stanford edu \( long list recipients \) subject clipper chip seen announcement friday 's ny times , etc nist \( national institute standards technology \) announcing clipper chip crypto device several net asked technical details , laboring understandable misunderstandings given lack details news articles help friendly nsa link somewhat surprised friday get call agency supplied many missing details told info public , \( cc dennis branstad nist mostly double check facts since assume aware please let know anything wrong \) clipper chip secret crypto algorithm embedded silicon chip two secret , 80 bit keys one chips \( ie system wide key \) unit specific n't know nist nsa call , call system key sk unit key uk message ic designed extremely difficult reverse system key kept secret \( aside clear also want keep algorithm secret , opinion , may much stated purpose \) unit key generated xor two 80 bit random numbers k1 k2 \( uk k1 k2 \) kept two escrow authorities escrow authorities still decided attorney general , stressed nsa law enforcement agencies , must parties acceptable users system unbiased law enforcement agency gets court order , present two escrow authorities receive k1 k2 , thereby allowing access unit key uk addition system key , user get choose key change often desired call key plain old k message sent first encrypted k , k encrypted unit key uk , serial number unit added produce three part message encrypted system key sk producing e e k , e k uk , serial number sk court order obtains k1 k2 , thence k , law enforcement agency use sk decrypt information flowing suspected link aside guess may constantly links , without court order , since almost impossible tell links message flow gives agency access e k , e k uk , serial number message check serial number unit see watch list court order , decrypt e k uk obtain k , decrypt e k obtain still process assessing scheme , please take kind endorsement proposed scheme trying help us assess scheme say need one court order worries would feel comfortable \( though necessarily comfortable ! \) two separate court orders needed , one per escrow authority explanation needed , following story adds color researching ideas silvio kicking around , spoke gerald , constitutional law expert stanford related following story edward levi became pres ford 's attorney general \( right watergate \) , visited fbi agent asking wiretap authorizations levy asked details could review cases required law , agent told predecessors turned 40 50 blank , signed forms every time levi comply changed system , lesson clear single person authority power authorize wiretaps \( worse yet , personal keys \) sometimes edward levi sometimes john mitchell martin hellman date sun , 18 apr 93 11 41 42 pdt martin hellman hellman isl stanford edu smb research att com subject clipper chip fine post previous message sci crypt also post message 1 ask recipients sparse requesting info asking comments specific questions posting apologize messages unable respond \( already spend much time answering much e mail particularly overloaded week responsibilities \) 2 note probably correction sent dorothy denning met person nsa talked phone , understanding likely better mine point said transmitted info e e k , e k uk , serial number sk says message double encrypted system key \( family key told called \) encrypts serial number serial number encrypted unit key major difference , thought mentioned thank bringing attention makes sense since cuts encryption computation overhead
pmetzger snark shearson com \( perry e metzger \) subject secret algorithm clipper chip crypto key escrow reply amanda intercon com 's message fri , 16 apr 1993 23 50 03 0500 reply pmetzger lehman com organization lehman brothers lines 36 article news intercon com amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) writes amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) jhesse netcom com \( john hesse \) writes oh great wonderful news nobody listen except feds hey , 's better status quo far less worried feds tapping phone high school scanner get kicks eavesdropping cellular cordless phone calls i'm political dissident i'm scared shitless feds listening calls opinions sort would get disappeared slightly less free society knows sort society five ten years \? friends phones tapped none theoretical better status quo , well , first , get companies like cylink today work well addition , number groups working building software turn pc privacy enhanced phone right working overdrive mode yes , 'd rather see crypto restrictions lifted , least improvement certain applications crypto restrictions yet use anything want right point maintain right perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire , laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
pmetzger snark shearson com \( perry e metzger \) subject tapped , code good reply louie umd edu 's message 17 apr 1993 13 10 00 gmt reply pmetzger lehman com organization lehman brothers ni umd edu distribution na lines 24 article ni umd edu louie umd edu \( louis \) writes article tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com tcmay netcom com \( timothy c may \) writes worse current unsecure system \? becomes much worse , course , government uses clinton clipper argue restrictions unapproved encryption \( main concern us , think camel 's nose tent , etc \) excuse \? already happened 's couple tent already ask folks qualcomm became non trivial encryption scheme proposed use cdma cellular phone standard \? already restrictions place slightly wrong dumped encryption system could export could produce u use legal restraints citizen use strong cryptography yet perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire , laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
pmetzger snark shearson com \( perry e metzger \) subject hysterical \? ! reply amolitor nmsu edu 's message 17 apr 1993 17 54 23 gmt reply pmetzger lehman com organization lehman brothers 1qpg8finn982 dns1 nmsu edu distribution na lines 80 article 1qpg8finn982 dns1 nmsu edu amolitor nmsu edu \( andrew molitor \) writes article tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com tcmay netcom com \( timothy c may \) writes worse current unsecure system \? becomes much worse , course , government uses clinton clipper argue restrictions unapproved encryption \( main concern us , think camel 's nose tent , etc \) pick mr may particular , course , n't kind domino theory \? john pointed repeatedly , produce infrastructure would permit police state function , required suddenly find living one change attitude part government constitution built men risk lives ensure freedom country designed system make difficult tyranny arise instance , one reasons fourth amendment put make harder government try make smuggling crime think jest \? john hancock made money smuggling rum , , , drug think government everyones keys escrow , fbi gets pet wiretap without leaving office scheme coup , happens every day around world within hours , everyone country might oppose tyrants monitored closely ever possible without tools place , tyranny cannot stand tools like place , tyrannical dictatorship could actually successfully imposed give government tools enslave \? maybe trust bill clinton , willing tell trust every government ever arise u hereafter \? willing make leap faith tim may , whose sig block may get busted new regime n't little melodramatic \? i'm political dissident , aware happens political dissidents world world , could killed beliefs call amnesty international time find happens dissidents world seperates u places thin piece national archives thats constantly eroded war drugs happened countries stable democracies hundred years governments throughout history fallen government lasted hundred years often , replaced dictatorships really believe intensely could never ever ever happen willing bet life lives children loved ones \? construct tools tyranny could enforced , make orders magnitude likely could happen , happened tools already place could actually stick naive fools leadership believe protect us hundreds gone failed thriving democracies led men far bill clinton fallen dictatorship rome thriving republic run skilled men became tyranny , one , unwilling trust could never happen hubris would allow us believe immune happened elsewhere perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire , laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
marc mit edu \( marc horowitz n1nzu \) subject source announcement organization massachusetts institute technology lines 19 nntp posting host oliver mit edu reply tcmay netcom com 's message sun , 18 apr 1993 08 17 28 gmt article mrs netcom com tcmay netcom com \( timothy c may \) writes know least one person list says first heard clipper friday morning newspaper ! another already fired letter protest nist point \? suspect list , interesting various reasons , represent cabal put proposal together , yes others , received mail mitch kapor saying ask list , know added i'm sure applies others list , guess initial theory right , clipper list someone 's idea bad joke guess happy n't conspiracy marc marc horowitz n1nzu marc mit edu 617 253
strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) subject tapped , code good organization dsi uscrpac distribution na lines 15 article apr18 194927 17048 yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu \( douglas craig holland \) writes note measures protect tempest surveillance still classified , far know think inaccurate one buy tempest equipment commercially even macs david david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted
djb silverton berkeley edu \( j bernstein \) subject clipper chip technical details organization ir lines 15 short summary bellovin says hellman says nsa says global key g , plus one key u c chip c user choose new session key k p phone call p makes chip c knows three keys g , u c , user 's k p government whole knows g every u c apparently message encrypted e g \( e u c \( k p \) , c \) , e k p \( \) 's system described ca n't possibly work happens someone plugs ciphertext receiving chip \? get receiving chip needs k p get k p receiving chip needs u c information work c u c computed c system cryptographically useless bullshit otherwise message decrypted \? dan
subject tapped , code good steiner jupiter cse utoledo edu \( jason 'think ! ' steiner \) distribution na nntp posting host jupiter cse utoledo edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 23 douglas craig holland \( holland cs colostate edu \) writes e mail , ca n't break pgp encryption , 'll call one tempest trucks read electromagnetic emmisions computer terminal note measures protect tempest surveillance still classified , far know lcd displays vulnerable tempest \? new regime comes fruition , make sure protect first amendment rights asserting second amendment rights 'll second jason stood van yelled , , sir ai n't nothing wrong country plastic explosives wo n't cure ! ' steve taylor , blew clinic real good ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` steiner jupiter cse utoledo edu ` , ` , ` , `
amolitor nmsu edu \( andrew molitor \) subject tapped , code good organization department mathematical sciences lines 58 distribution na nntp posting host moink nmsu edu al escom com \( al donaldson \) writes amolitor nmsu edu \( andrew molitor \) writes yes , evil guys fbi probably , effort , abuse system got news , evil guys fbi decide want persecute , 're gonna , richard nixon kind toy , would n't send people watergate appears generic calling upon name anti christ hell , let 's destroy remark let us imagine executive branch actually could extract keys escrow houses without anyone knowing , telling \? dick 80 bits data hell 's gonna \? 1 \) trot around telco say 'we 'd like decrypting uh huh 2 \) break watergate install tap \( people still break , neat , huh \? \) record noise , get executive branch phone decryption box \( huh \? 've got one \? goodness , wait 'til washington post gets hold \) decrypt noise 3 \) likely , stare key , say 'oh , hell 's worth bloody truth , even granted lots covert power part executive branch , system difficult tap pots gear fact easier tap hypothetical system neither going place phones neither rational concerns seeing raised \) key really chopped half , xor arrangement \? , egregious technical error built plan \? b \) first step toward strict regulation strong encryption \? 's really issue real issue whether used justify ban individuals' use private \( e , anything else \) encryption methods b \) , course suspect government actually wanted make regs , 'd hundred people usenet yelling would n't even slow machine besides , mysterious 's going take away rights instant let guard \? congress \? gang ca n't even balance fbi \? n't make laws nsa \? ditto white house \? bill clinton probably still looking bathroom 's big place , andrew al
uni acs bu edu \( shaen bernhardt \) subject open letter mr clinton organization boston university , boston , , usa lines 44 article chinet chi il us schneier chinet chi il us \( bruce schneier \) writes article netcom com strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes 's simple way convert clipper proposal unexceptionable one make voluntary get high quality secure nsa classified technology agree escrow key otherwise long means use encryption , i'm sold bruce high quality secure nsa classified technology means handing key whomever , 'll take pgp day right billing voluntary , e bend , comes soon enough wiretap chip based units , much easier think redefine mean write n't even think distributing \? get honest , one going buy trash know 's compromised already , less buy algorithm disclosed nsa knows making stuff available public means handing whatever foreign powers interested process since export control stopped anyone \( especially software wise \) ask carefully high quality secure nsa classified technology something going hand unless drive nsa van holes uni \( dark \) uni acs bu edu public keys finger request public key archives pgp public keys pgp iastate edu df610670f2467b99 97de2b5c3749148c sovereignty sign brutal past cryptography crime fight big brother proposal !
sphughes sfsuvax1 sfsu edu \( shaun p hughes \) subject hearing views clipper \? organization san francisco state university distribution na lines 18 browser group time , concerned clipper chip proposal , hoping someone knowledge help would influential people write , protesting obvious next step hinted proposal \? \( heads committees , etc \) major flaws plan \? \( standpoint \) shaun p hughes facts stupid things sphughes sfsuvax1 sfsu edu ronald reagan republican national finger pgp 2 2 public key convention 1988
hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) subject tapped , code good lines 63 reply hallam zeus02 desy de organization elektronen synchrotron , experiment zeus bei hera distribution na article 1993apr18 ringer cs utsa edu , whughes lonestar utsa edu \( william w hughes \) writes article 1qpg8finn982 dns1 nmsu edu amolitor nmsu edu \( andrew molitor \) writes article tcmayc5m2xv jex netcom com tcmay netcom com \( timothy c may \) writes tim may , whose sig block may get busted new regime n't little melodramatic \? two weeks ago registered concern programming conducted student organisation university texas san antonio result , interrogated police , also attempted create positive identification file \( photo , , etc \) refused permit , filed complaint university administration vice president business affairs \( campus police \) stated interest legal constitutional implications actions article johnson trwacs , johnson trwacs fp trw com \( steve johnson \) writes remark heard day beginning take increasingly frightening significance comment made parts world democrats note big would known socialists might get begin accepting government really could n't bothered less political opinions right wing pro establishment types circumstances could think would interested political views would recruit spooks guaranteed give government line counts us history socialists persecuted people start asserting mechanism administration get new chip adopted without legal force lets try thinking first place clipper chip must existed several years defense project therefore party matter george bush case hardly adverse tapping calls , chief spook remember secondly govt quite easily apply pressure simply ask give huge defense contracts \( motorola etc \) nice boys bill giving nice little trade monopoly since chips wo n't avaliable foreign firms thirdly people consider democrats socialist ones consider socialists communist people might know us education system suffer version political correctness sort show trials ever seen ed pissed \? , said socialism communism thing brought house laughter took several minutes realised serious phill hallam baker phill hallam baker
artmel well sf ca us \( arthur melnick \) subject big brother \( clipper \) chip summary thoughts use big brother \( clipper \) chip keywords clipper nntp posting host well sf ca us organization whole earth 'lectronic link , sausalito , ca lines 57 issues come mind one considers law enforcement aspects use big brother \( clipper \) chip drug dealers terrorists n't going let caught using type encryption 1985 new york times reported government investigators broke ring operating highly sophisticated equipment capable allowing leaders ring eavesdrop law enforcement agents trying arrest mr , nsa official , said lot medium sized countries would proud signals intelligence operation group every john probably many people sophistication know risks unsecure communications press given big brother chip increase numbers even benefit law enforcement use big brother , must weighed constitutional civil liberties questions involved example , areas world torture used investigative tool local law enforcement people suspect effective means obtaining information shortening many investigations probably also helps keep conviction rate high fact torture tool used country \( even court order obtained showing probable cause \) rightly balanced questions expediency ethically morally right think question expediency versus morality come play considering use big brother vote morality quite disturbed interpret veiled threat prohibit use encryption big brother chip put wide spread use quick reading white house press release came away impression american public , word hacker rightly wrongly come mean high tech adolescent vandal struck people posting sci crypt regarding issue intelligent , thoughtful individuals genuine concerns privacy constitutional issues surrounding big brother hope use big brother become mandatory encryption become illegal would hate see become kind high tech act high speed digital communications revolution coming us speed times changing , ibm learning ca n't business way done past 40 years , maybe nsa evaluate another approach eff , correctly questioned cryptographic strength big brother , may need send stronger message regarding constitutional issues involved al gore may want think one little dorothy elizabeth denning en , \?
c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu \( john kelsey \) subject clipper chip key exchange methods nntp posting host mizzou1 missouri edu organization university missouri lines 13 wanting ask question dan bernstein asked clipper chip exchange keys \? public key 80 160 bits long , anyone know public key schemes secure key size \? \( diffie hellman maybe el , p set constant value \? \) presumably , real scheme something like 1 exchange verify public keys 2 send encrypted \( randomly generated \) session key 3 encrypt decrypt voice sort fast stream cipher anyone elaborate , show i'm missing \? john kelsey , c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu
nyx cs du edu subject security clipper \? organization cold media lines 13 zeev ccc amdahl com \( ze'ev wurman \) writes really believe various governments \( including \) wo n't full lists keys ever manufactured \? yes , 'll encrypted cripple chip encryption , encryption algorithm great 's top secret unbreakable even let look ! n't make feel secure \? robert w clark say ! nyx cs du edu big brother chip
iastate edu \( justin york \) subject clipper chip would work \? organization iowa state university , ames ia lines 18 talk clipper chip , developed one question work \? \? \? use , get decrypted end \? party \( receiving phone call mail etc \) know code undo \? use different method calling one party would another \? party decrypt , n't mean someone else could also \? assume everyone different key , use would storing secure data later retrieval key seems like fundamental question , little experience cryptosystems , des someone could give explanation would used \( remember little experience sort thing \) would much appreciated justin york iastate edu
rogue ccs northeastern edu \( free radical \) subject tapped , code good nntp posting host damon ccs northeastern edu organization college cs , northeastern u distribution alt lines 21 article apr18 194927 17048 yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu \( douglas craig holland \) writes e mail , ca n't break pgp encryption , 'll call one tempest trucks read electromagnetic emmisions computer terminal note measures protect tempest surveillance still classified , far know n't know classified , seem remember unless 're authorized govt , 's illegal tempest shield equipment besides , effective tempest shielding much difficult might think \( hi jim ! \) ra rogue cs neu edu \( rogue agent sod ! \) nsa funding research cryptography , areas advanced mathematics 'd like circular describing new research opportunities , pick phone , call mother , ask one
prz sage cgd ucar edu \( philip zimmermann \) subject fighting clipper initiative summary ways fight organization climate global dynamics division ncar , boulder , co lines 71 ideas want oppose white house clipper chip crypto initiative think going tough measure fight , since government invested lot resources developing high profile initiative serious wo n't easy senate bill 266 1991 possible actions take response 1 \) mobilize friends things list , 2 \) work press talk local newspaper 's science technology reporter write favorite trade rags better yet , write articles favorite magazines newspapers explain clipper chip initiative bad idea remember tailor audience general public may slow grasp 's bad idea , since seems technical arcane innocent sounding try come across flaming libertarian paranoid extremist , even one 3 \) lobby congress write letters make phone calls member congress district , well two us senators many members congress aides advise technology issues talk aides 4 \) involve local political parties libertarian party would certainly interested also libertarian wings democrat republican parties right privacy surprisingly broad appeal , parts political spectrum many natural allies aclu nra activist groups may someday find facing government suppress much efficiently trends play must articulate arguments well want draw people familiar issues 4 \) contribute money electronic frontier foundation \( eff \) computer professionals social responsibility \( cpsr \) , assuming groups fight initiative need money legal expenses lobbying 5 \) mobilize opposition industry companies presumably develop products incorporate clipper chip lobbied , within without work telecommunications equipment vendor , first aid coworkers fellow engineers initiative , present company 's management united front engineering talent initiative write persuasive memos management , name names hold meetings 6 \) publicize , deploy much guerrilla techno apparatus means pgp , anonymous mail forwarding systems based pgp , pgp key servers , etc widespread availability kind technology might also used argument ca n't effectively suppressed government action also working develop new useful tools purposes 7 \) prepared engage impending public policy debate topic n't know yet tough fight , may compromise get want ca n't outright defeat , may live modified version clipper chip plan end 'd better prepared analyze government 's plan , articulate want modified philip zimmermann
atlantis csos orst edu \( brian \) subject clipper stay classified \? article distribution world organization cs dept oregon state university , corvallis , oregon lines 8 nntp posting host atlantis csos orst edu maybe n't know enough know asking , millions things , could algorythm possibly stay secret \? could n't clever hackers grind thing layer layer , see worked \? brian atlantis cs orst edu finger pgp 2 1 key
johnl iecc cambridge us \( john r levine \) subject clipper algorithm secret organization e c c lines 21 cryptographic protocol , though , another matter see valid reasons keeping secret , hope 've shown lot ways things n't \( quite \) bad occurred algorithm secret published , one could build physically identical clone versions chip would interoperate official clipper chips would n't provide keys escrow houses technical hack 've missed \? e g chips made , shipped two escrow houses programmed halves keys , way requires secret keys known escrow houses installed well , without clone versions would n't interoperate \? getting awfully complicated , 's crypto john r levine , iecc , pob 349 , cambridge 02238 , 1 617 492 johnl iecc cambridge us , ima spdcc world ! iecc ! johnl time money ! steal today !
hal gnu ai mit edu \( ray \) subject tapped , code good distribution na organization etc organization lines 27 article dscomsa desy de hallam zeus02 desy de writes views would recruit spooks guaranteed give government line counts us history socialists persecuted russia , capitalists persecuted trading goods black market us , capitalist minded types imprisoned killed things selling drugs , guns , pornography , victimless activities n't matter whether socialist capitalist , power control central government since citizens ca n't trusted run affairs , government must watch \( good course mean , strong cryptography , citizens might gasp ! start hide things irs , sell drugs guns pornography , cannot allowed ! \) trials ever seen ed pissed \? , said socialism communism thing brought house laughter took several minutes realised serious surprising anyone believes hands government believe private life \( social financial \) none anyone else 's business , difference socialism communism like difference murder lethal injection centralized economy , potential abuses accumulation information individuals think credit companies bad , well , i'm sure democratic socialist society would vote absolute privacy citizens !
marc vanheyningen mvanheyn cs indiana edu subject clipper chip technical details organization computer science dept , indiana university lines 24 thus said djb silverton berkeley edu \( j bernstein \) short summary bellovin says hellman says nsa says global key g , plus one key u c chip c user choose new session key k p phone call p makes chip c knows three keys g , u c , user 's k p government whole knows g every u c apparently message encrypted e g \( e u c \( k p \) , c \) , e k p \( \) 's system described ca n't possibly work happens someone plugs ciphertext receiving chip \? get receiving chip needs k p get k p receiving chip needs u c information work c u c computed c system cryptographically useless bullshit otherwise message decrypted \? given description algorithm given , plausible find k p must agreed bandwidth advance two parties e 's standard shared symmetric key marc vanheyningen mvanheyn cs indiana edu mime ripem accepted security diversion n theory states public availability good computer games vital maintaining system safety contrast security obscurity
amolitor moink nmsu edu \( andrew molitor \) subject clipper nay sayers sound like organization department mathematical sciences lines 55 distribution na nntp posting host moink nmsu edu originator amolitor moink nmsu edu following available ftp archive somewhere , insert comments liberally throughout demonic memo big white house announcement screw thread standards announce american national standards institute \( whatever \) given authority define standard dimensions screw threads look ! clearly first step toward outlawing screw thread specifications madness n't fought , tooth nail , every step way , 'll crime use screw threads fearless leaders graciously define us purpose permit industry draw upon standard pool specifications designations , ensure interoperability various threaded objects across vendors rubbish , say ! ansi standard screw threads subtle weaknesses , allowing agents disassemble automobiles easily , causing mufflers fall moments questions answers ansi screw thread standards q screw threads defined ansi good screw thread designs available elsewhere \? yes hah ! trust us q able use screw threads desire \? course , make threaded objects unlikely interoperate correctly others within industry see \? \? ! see \? first step clear must band together , write congressman ! use pretty good screw threads , devil inspired ansi trash protect constitutional right use whatever screw thread desire guerilla screw thread activism must become order day boycott gm , build car , using screws screw thread associates screw , bill clinton ! thugs ! amolitor nmsu edu finger personal screw thread pitch , screw threads see screw thread servers must freed !
howland noc arc nasa gov \( curt howland \) subject white house wiretap chip disinformation sheet keywords big bubba watching organization nasa science internet project office lines 24 attorney general procure utilize encryption devices extent needed preserve government 's ability conduct lawful electronic surveillance fulfill need secure law enforcement communications , attorney general shall utilize funds department justice asset forfeiture super surplus fund effect purchase one part really scares without keys , likely determined person using state approved encryption method , persons life , profits go making , profit power corrupts absolute power corrupts absolutely human nature changed much hundred years curt howland howland nsipo nasa gov nsi operations center nasa ames \( 800 \) 424
ns111310 lance colostate edu \( nathaniel sammons \) subject clipper nay sayers sound like distribution na nntp posting host blanca lance colostate edu organization colorado state u engineering college lines 39 bunch well meaning \( maybe \) text screw thread sizes , rights people standards , non right gov regulate screw threads well , funny little comment may seem , little personal privacy citizen , governemnt able look everything ever typed computer one point another clipper chip stuff seeds nightmares make nightmare cheese movies look like episodes mr roger 's neighborhood gov establishes cryptography standard used everyone , everyone 's personal key divided two segments stored two separate , albeit easy find places , key 80 bits begin , screwed \( pardon mentioned article \) ! gov , believe , many others probably already cracking chips clipper chip made hell , probably based chip cracks , way 's easier break code , since classified algorythm , one knows crack easily , one , quite scared kind thing , plan support organizations \( even \) fighting clipper chip way want government able access , even search warrant , keys n't want keys 80 bits long begin ! nate sammons hate quotations message brought tell know nate sammons , number 42 ralph waldo emerson ns111310 longs lance colostate edu
jed pollux usc edu \( jonathan \) subject crypto conference organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 11 distribution usa nntp posting host pollux usc edu need know following information upcoming crypto conference address submit articles , number copies needed thanks , jonathan jed pollux usc edu jay jed pollux usc edu \( university southern california \) stupid machine marvin
pgf srl03 cacs usl edu \( phil g fraering \) subject tapped , code good organization univ southwestern louisiana lines 52 strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes follows opinion asserted truth flames , please comes background 20 years senior corporate staff executive two fortune 50 companies 'd happy use crypto system supplied nsa business , told secure des , particular resistant attempts japanese , french , competitive companies governments break 'd happy even escrowed keys , provided happy bona fides escrow agencies \( federal reserve would certainly satisfy , would something set one big 8 accounting firms \) 'd trust nsa president stated trap doors 'd even happier committee independent experts examined thing seal secrecy reported back secure 'd trust something nsa long 'd trust something swiss anybody japanese lot us trust japanese 'll trust nsa , president , stupid fortune 50 companies 're proud may seem surprising , suggest corporations would feel way many \( pick one \) corporations attitude nsa part government support government , one famous ceo put one day perspective another point view since japanese corps n't part government governors may trusted people getting tired patriotic , whatever say without question , pay taxes attitude comes america 's political party caste \? david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted phil fraering seems like every day find sorts stuff pgf srl02 cacs usl edu like ancient mayans televison repo man
pgf srl03 cacs usl edu \( phil g fraering \) subject tapped , code good organization univ southwestern louisiana distribution na lines 25 holland cs colostate edu \( douglas craig holland \) writes e mail , ca n't break pgp encryption , 'll call one tempest trucks read electromagnetic emmisions computer terminal note measures protect tempest surveillance still classified , far know 1 n't think classified 2 could independently invent half dozen right top head studied advanced e little better , could probably come good system new regime comes fruition , make sure protect first amendment rights asserting second amendment rights doug holland phil fraering seems like every day find sorts stuff pgf srl02 cacs usl edu like ancient mayans televison repo man
lynx dac northeastern edu \( michael \) subject thoughts clipper proposal organization division academic computing , northeastern university , boston , 02115 usa lines 25 envision new various communication systems , thus making prevalent market therefore cheap way may crypto chip communication equipment seems logical provide clipper chip end user part phone , fax , modem like form smart card compatible various products banks encourage extensive use new cards make transactions phone natural step cross reference card person government databases else new version wiretap proposal make sence one wish eavesdrop \( spell \) particular person , particular modem phone side note , disagree one poster , said wo n't care ability government eavesdrop , since anyway clipper take away electronic citizens , making monopoly government may , find examples made \( \) people uncovered crimes state officials \? pgp2 1 public key finger lynx dac northeastern edu
snake cs uidaho edu \( mr duane tribe \) subject underground encryption \( text white house announcement \) organization university idaho , moscow lines 28 distribution na nntp posting host snake cs uidaho edu article gap caltech edu hal cco caltech edu \( hal finney \) writes looks like worst nightmares raised dorothy denning 's proposals coming true government continues course , imagine see strong cryptography made illegal encryption programs disk files email , well software allow encrypted voice communications , distributed underground people learn hide fact protecting privacy thoughts work done encrypted data inside non encrypted data files \? many file formats written gaps hide data new file formats could designed alternate data hidden amongst legitimate data hidden data would show right key \( \) , file hidden data would indistinguishable one without , correct key \( \) would reveal presence illegal document devise custom file compression algorithm friend , otherwise file appears total , right transmit file \? escrow data file formats \? gangs required escrow hand signals , colors catch phrases \? think 's important evaluate content electronic speach replacing media pen paper verbal speach ask question
douglas johnson psilink com subject unix crypt dos nntp posting host 127 0 0 1 organization class technology corporation x mailer psilink dos \( 3 4 \) lines 4 've recently moved unix dos box number files used crypt protect anyone know dos version crypt \? 've found one , insists six letter keys used shorter ones thanks help doug
chinet chi il us \( dave \) subject tapped , code good summary , flaws , domino theory right organization chinet public access unix distribution na lines 8 article 1qpg8finn982 dns1 nmsu edu amolitor nmsu edu \( andrew molitor \) writes pick mr may particular , course , n't kind domino theory \? one little country falls , neighbor surely follow , know , 're mining salt siberia turning captain crunch secret decoder rings , wrongness attempt correct \( vietnam , et al \) , domino theory n't disproved
organization university illinois chicago , academic computer center u23590 uicvm uic edu subject clipper new thoughts lines 7 cryptographic algorythm must kept secret , private individuals could make could transmit messages feds would ready access clearly unacceptable hope somebody starts soon first ones released
wcs anchor ho att com \( bill stewart 1 908 949 0705 \) subject tapped , code good organization typical phone company involved typical daydream distribution na reply brad clarinet com 's message 17 apr 93 06 13 26 gmt 1993apr17 clarinet com nntp posting host rainier ho att com lines 21 article 1993apr17 clarinet com brad clarinet com \( brad templeton \) writes hits land record telco access telco n't supposed give without warrant 's rule today even , evidence would admissible , think , unless judge ordered think even interception crypttext without warrant would illegal cops ca n't record today 's plain cellular calls ask judge , hey , permission listen tapes \? \? long think becomes legal police record encrypted conversations 's violating privacy ca n't read encryption without warrant , usual good faith exception accidentally record non encrypted conversation besides , 's covered drug exception fourth amendment pray peace bill bill stewart 1 908 949 0705 wcs anchor att com bell labs 4m312 holmdel nj , i'm new jersey , work cyberspace white house commect line 1 202 456 1111 fax 1 202 456 2461
strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) subject secret algorithm clipper chip crypto key escrow keywords encryption , wiretap , clipper , key escrow , mykotronx organization dsi uscrpac lines 18 article apr18 204843 50316 yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu \( douglas craig holland \) writes let ask would trust richard nixon crypto keys \? would n't take mean president nixon , private citizen nixon sure nothing i'm would slightest interest president nixon david david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted
karn unix ka9q ampr org \( phil karn \) subject white house wiretap chip disinformation sheet keywords big bubba watching nntp posting host unix ka9q ampr org reply karn servo qualcomm com organization qualcomm , inc lines 24 article wcs rainier att com , wcs anchor ho att com \( bill stewart 1 908 949 0705 \) writes attorney general procure utilize encryption devices extent needed preserve government 's ability conduct lawful electronic surveillance fulfill need secure law enforcement communications , attorney general shall utilize funds department justice asset forfeiture super surplus fund effect purchase curious thing say stu iiis \( nsa designed secure telephones cleared classified traffic \) already readily available law enforcement agencies word 're standard every fbi office , example something like several hundred thousand phones exist clearly us government standard doj need buy new phones , unlike stu iiis , certified classified traffic , likelihood compatible existing stu iiis \? unless , course , 're gearing large scale decryption civilian clipper users , need compatible hardware phil
strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) subject wh proposal police point view organization dsi uscrpac lines 18 dwight tuinstra posts interesting message comments effects clipper chip state local police actually , reading lines , could good thing civil liberties one respect , since least prevent cowboy cops cowboy state local reading traffic tap illegally extensive discussion eff forum , example , taps used develop information could lead admissible evidence might put stop things , must time time simple fishing expeditions david david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted
hal cco caltech edu \( hal finney \) subject clipper chip technical details organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 19 nntp posting host alumni caltech edu djb silverton berkeley edu \( j bernstein \) writes summary elided system described ca n't possibly work happens someone plugs ciphertext receiving chip \? get receiving chip needs k p get k p receiving chip needs u c information work c u c computed c system cryptographically useless bullshit otherwise message decrypted \? description chip 's operation evidently leaves key management aspects either k p secret key corresponding public key broadcast message initiation , result diffie hellman key exchange something similar either way must protocols beyond described n't clear whether implemented clipper wiretap chip must provided system components hal finney
smb research att com \( steven bellovin \) subject clipper chip technical details organization bell laboratories lines 20 article 58 silverton berkeley edu , djb silverton berkeley edu \( j bernstein \) writes short summary bellovin says hellman says nsa says global key g , plus one key u c chip c user choose new session key k p phone call p makes chip c knows three keys g , u c , user 's k p government whole knows g every u c apparently message encrypted e g \( e u c \( k p \) , c \) , e k p \( \) 's system described ca n't possibly work happens someone plugs ciphertext receiving chip \? get receiving chip needs k p get k p receiving chip needs u c information work c u c computed c system cryptographically useless bullshit otherwise message decrypted \? via k p , course nothing said k p comes 's session key , though , 's chosen however usually choose session keys key exchange , shared secret , rsa , etc however choose , chip apparently emit escrow header
c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu \( john kelsey \) subject corporate acceptance wiretap chip nntp posting host mizzou1 missouri edu organization university missouri lines 60 strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes follows opinion asserted truth flames , please comes background 20 years senior corporate staff executive two fortune 50 companies 'd happy use crypto system supplied nsa business , told secure des , particular resistant attempts japanese , french , competitive companies governments break 'd happy even escrowed keys , provided happy bona fides escrow agencies \( federal reserve would certainly satisfy , would something set one big 8 accounting firms \) n't doubt attitude many corporate leaders 's understandable corporate execs n't know much cryptology , 's easy get taken someone snake oil , proposed scheme major improvement telephone security exists problem , security scheme kind , concern weakest link chain suspect nsa put fairly strong encryption algorithm wiretap chip , probably least strong \( say \) des ofb mode unfortunately , existence key registry system seems make possible kinds possible attacks small fraction expense trying build \( say \) des keysearch machine originally described , sounded like police court combination could acquire key given chip hope 's case , since would imply glaring hole \( much cost find one crooked one crooked cop \? especially foreign intelligence agency organized crime boss \? \) however , even intelligent schemes used allow access phone conversations , weak may expensive , difficult would trust confidential information encryption scheme , \( say \) 100 , 000 could cracked one time hundred \? \( des , complaints 56 bit key , would probably cost several million dollars build keysearch machine \) many million dollars would confidential phone messages gm headquarters worth nissan , chrysler , audi \? home phones major execs important engineers designers \? gee , mr jones , understand 've financial problems lately maybe help 'd trust something nsa long 'd trust something swiss anybody japanese indeed , nsa really designed algorithm secure , 's likely secure idea 2 key des however , system whole n't resistant practical cryptanalysis puzzle palace , bamford describes several nsa employees turned foreign \( presumably kgb \) agents , despite security measures doubt big 8 accounting firm could match nsa confidential data subject requested thousands police organizations courts across land john kelsey , c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu
dfl panix com \( danny o'bedlam \) subject clipper algorithm secret organization panix , \( new city \) lines 29 1993apr18 358 iecc cambridge us johnl iecc cambridge us \( john r levine \) writes \( quoting someone else \) cryptographic protocol , though , another matter see valid reasons keeping secret , hope 've shown lot ways things n't \( quite \) bad occurred algorithm secret published , one could build physically identical clone versions chip would interoperate official clipper chips would n't provide keys escrow houses yeah ! algorithm classified military contract \( similar government equivalent military \) let proprietary design feds say nsa developed patent \? patent publicly available \? betting classified algorithm made public , reverse engineered , would compromise goal justice able read every chip users data would reduce profits selected chip maker would n't bad \? danny o'bedlam dfl panix com cmcl2 ! panix ! dfl danny po box church st station , new , new , \( usa \)
c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu \( john kelsey \) subject wiretap chip , clones , secure key exchange nntp posting host mizzou1 missouri edu organization university missouri lines 33 u23590 uicvm uic edu writes cryptographic algorythm must kept secret , private individuals could make could transmit messages feds would ready access necessarily 've thinking , chip scheme provide real security , must sort key exchange , either using public key encryption scheme , using key exchange scheme like diffie hellman 's band transmission shared session key , protects band eavesdropping \? phone company online central authority generates session key sends users , 's point going trouble complicated key \? ask phone company copy session key call , 's probably practical user keep online copy every public key used anyone anywhere , right \? , probably , way getting keys verified might digitally signed \( chip manufacturer \) copy public key unit , stored unit might also online directory access everyone 's public keys \( would introduce another weakness security scheme , course \) presumably , n't use designated key , ca n't get verified connection standard chips might useful modified chip , would allow use either original public private key pair , key pair verification scheme unfortunately , would allow call people establish secure communications john kelsey hope somebody starts soon first ones released
brad clarinet com \( brad templeton \) subject detect use illegal cipher \? organization clarinet communications corp lines 16 article news claremont edu ebrandt jarthur claremont edu \( eli brandt \) writes get copy key criminal 's going use encryption cover clipper way avoid try prohibit strong encryption n't true today 's criminals regularly use sorts unsafe methods , cordless phones cellular phones plain old copper wire analog phones put clips plan execute crimes amazing stupid , fbi keen digital law , successor clipper chip 're hoping crooks remain stupid , feel safe using clipper chip phones get caught brad templeton , clarinet communications corp sunnyvale , ca 408 296 0366
brad clarinet com \( brad templeton \) subject secret algorithm clipper chip crypto key escrow organization clarinet communications corp keywords encryption , wiretap , clipper , key escrow , mykotronx lines 21 article 1993apr18 magnus acs ohio state edu jebright magnus acs ohio state edu \( james r ebright \) writes article brad clarinet com \( brad templeton \) writes greatest danger escrow database , kept disk , would chance complete copy could somehow leak course 's hard backup however , think consequences backup data warrant comes worse consequences secret backup data n't warrant comes , effectively secure crypto secret backups kept effectively crypto thus , poster arguing crypto better secure crypto , poster \( \) brain wrong gear infer first sentence , meant consequences backup better consequences easy copy database brad templeton , clarinet communications corp sunnyvale , ca 408 296 0366
c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu \( john kelsey \) subject competing standard nntp posting host mizzou1 missouri edu organization university missouri lines 22 perhaps one way getting away cripple chip u government seems pushing would come good alternative example , scheme using rsa , hybrid des cfb another strong stream cipher \( maybe idea cfb \) \? could substantially cripple chip , except instead key registration , police could demand give secret key \( court issued warrant \) , could read last months wiretapped messages 've sent , assuming 've committed crimes , could generate new key pair go business find 'd willing pay rsa right use system , especially given alternative unwilling give secret key , 'd probably stay jail \( anyone got real legal precedent \? \) would allow court issued warrants used gather information suspected criminals , could n't done secrecy , would enormously less likelihood corruption theft escrowed keys \( maybe someone law enforcement intelligent community correct , n't seem like big loss terms law enforcement capabilities \) comments \? john kelsey
djb silverton berkeley edu \( j bernstein \) subject clipper chip technical details organization ir lines 17 article 1993apr19 ulysses att com smb research att com \( steven bellovin \) writes nothing said k p comes oh \? hellman said user get choose key '' 's key called k p , session key according hellman , alice bob communicating clipper chip , alice chooses bob chooses key '' incompatible suggestion alice bob talking , use common k p , chosen classical public key approaches protocol key management description published far either incomplete incorrect leaves idea system would actually work hope cpsr foia request succeeds get full details dan
holthaus news weeg uiowa edu \( james r holthaus \) subject fighting clipper initiative organization university iowa , iowa city , ia , usa lines 43 prz sage cgd ucar edu \( philip zimmermann \) writes philip , think ideas well taken constructive thanks forum 2 \) work press talk local newspaper 's science technology reporter write favorite trade rags better yet , write articles favorite magazines newspapers explain clipper chip initiative bad idea remember tailor audience general public may slow grasp 's bad idea , since seems technical arcane innocent sounding try come across flaming libertarian paranoid extremist , even one flaming libertarian paranoid extremist \( \) , loss specific objections n't sound frighteningly technical suggestions \? perhaps somebody could post list \? 5 \) mobilize opposition industry companies presumably develop products incorporate clipper chip lobbied , within without work telecommunications equipment vendor , first aid coworkers fellow engineers initiative , present company 's management united front engineering talent initiative write persuasive memos management , name names hold meetings one way might suggest companies implementing schemes , limited govt 's scheme find reasons opposition clipper scheme insecurity mistrust govt nsa hard sell letters editor nontechnical people hints advice maybe small faq type thing hate clipper would good idea james holthaus james holthaus uiowa edu government association men violence rest us leo tolstoy pgp 2 2 public key available request key server
csugrad cs vt edu \( michael finch \) subject clipper algorithm secret organization virginia tech computer science dept , blacksburg , va lines 17 nntp posting host csugrad cs vt edu johnl iecc cambridge us \( john r levine \) writes cryptographic protocol , though , another matter see valid reasons keeping secret , hope 've shown occurred algorithm secret published , one could build physically identical clone versions recall seeing post time ago saying details encryption scheme could n't revealed , encryption scheme worthless believe statement response somebody saying new scheme , algorithm secret algorithm depend fact scheme secret stated reasons \? mike
steve b access digex com \( steve brinich \) subject fighting clipper initiative organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 9 nntp posting host access digex net flaming libertarian paranoid extremist \( \) , loss specific objections n't sound frighteningly technical idea cripple chip standard us manufacturers would result saying yet another high tech market n't technical , n't least difficult understand , plays concern lots people worried already
stan uucp \( stan \) subject text white house announcement q clipper chip organization temple stan tbs world hq concord , mass , usa brad clarinet com \( brad templeton \) writes let 's assume , moment , system really secure unless get halves encryption key two independent escrow houses let 's say even trust escrow houses one aclu eff \( i'm entirely joking two names \) hi , i'm new internet , bit test message , even token reply would appreciated anyways , reading 'd figure would excellent method corrupting aclu eff could wished guardians \? , etc
gtoal gtoal com \( graham toal \) subject automatic online encryption data lines 46 andersom spot colorado edu \( marc anderson \) also box plug phone , would allow encrypted voice communications someone similar box \? \( digitizing input speech , transmitting , decrypting end \) n't know public key system could work regard , might heh heh posted reading clinton chip messages guess beat anyway , think would great idea develop product , perhaps underground , would otherwise probably become illegal pretty quickly 's really feasible n't expensive 's needed box phone jack one side , dsp middle codec functions speech compressed , rs232 side 'd plug phone , plug rs232 computer , good old fashioned normal modem rs232 port cpu middle would encryption version pgp modified work byte stream v32bis better modems carry , work quality would marginally lower normal telephone highest price , could use one voice mail compatible modems puts upper bound 500 cost box practice , really ought able get price well 100 could software cheap nasty home risc box \( acorn archimedes \) microphone bought 25 pounds , knew write good speech compression software \( n't \) reason wo n't work course hardly anyone one consumer equipment encryption use wiretap chip economics , i'm afraid however get throughput internet even bottleneck v32bis modem get isdn \( ha ha ha \) new nren , might trivial run compressed speech tcp ip connection internet perhaps start thinking standard keep voice internet compatible everyone , side step clipper stuff use internet phone calls future \) 1 2 joking g
gtoal gtoal com \( graham toal \) subject clipper chip technical details lines 8 protocol key management description published far either incomplete incorrect leaves idea system would actually work hope cpsr foia request succeeds get full details would n't easier ask denning cs georgetown edu \? \) g
gtoal gtoal com \( graham toal \) subject corporate acceptance wiretap chip lines 13 indeed , nsa really designed algorithm secure , 's likely secure idea 2 key des however , system whole n't resistant practical cryptanalysis puzzle palace , bamford describes several nsa employees turned foreign \( presumably kgb \) agents , despite security measures doubt big 8 accounting firm could match nsa confidential data subject requested thousands police organizations courts across land ah yes , n't anyone mention ronald william , heh heh heh embarrassing g nsa , 1964 1979 kgb 1980 1985
bell mars dev promis com \( mike bell \) subject clipper proposal key length \? organization promis systems corp lines 32 danny weitzner djw eff org writes april 16 , 1993 initial eff analysis clinton privacy security proposal details proposal escrow 80 bit key divided two escrow agents , hold 40 bits key manufacturer communications device would required register keys two independent escrow agents key tied device , however , person using subvert one two escrow agents , 40 bit space search 2 40 n't sound big digital telephony subject known plaintext attack \? case half key seems needed , two agent escrow arrangement pointless course , unknown algorithm might turn gaps speech pseudo random sequences , might magic involved , mike bell promis com
rlward1 afterlife ncsc mil \( robert ward \) subject text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption organization national computer security center distribution na lines 11 article bontchev 734981805 fbihh bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de writes since us constitutions guarantees right every american bear arms , every american entitled , matter read applicable part constitution interpreted context \? , please posting misinterpretation refers right people organize militia , individuals carry handguns , grenades , assault rifles robert l ward
lewis eecg toronto edu \( david lewis \) subject shelf cheap des keyseach machine \( corporate acceptance wiretap chip \) organization csri , university toronto lines 31 article c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu \( john kelsey \) writes strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes stuff deleted existence key registry system seems make possible kinds possible attacks small fraction expense trying build \( say \) des keysearch machine originally described , sounded like police court combination could acquire key given chip hope 's case , since would imply glaring hole \( much cost find one crooked one crooked cop \? especially foreign intelligence agency organized crime boss \? \) however , even intelligent schemes used allow access phone conversations , weak may expensive , difficult would trust confidential information encryption scheme , \( say \) 100 , 000 could cracked one time hundred \? \( des , complaints 56 bit key , would probably cost several million dollars build keysearch machine \) buy des keysearch machine shelf approx 500k , sold name go buy circuit emulation machine \( eg \) containing bunch , \( say 500 1000 3090 's \) , program des search engine lets say 500 chips , running 10mhz 5g tests sec time sec max 23 weeks , 12 weeks average ca n't wait long \? buy bigger machine david lewis
asic sc ti com \( jim \) subject tapped , code good nntp posting host asic sc ti com reply asic sc ti com organization design div , texas instruments , inc lines 36 amolitor nmsu edu \( andrew molitor \) writes pick mr may particular , course , n't kind domino theory \? one little country falls , neighbor surely follow , know , 're mining salt siberia turning captain crunch secret decoder rings interesting column editorial page dallas morning news saturday walter williams , believe professor georgetown \( wonder knows dorothy 're kansas anymore denning \) article titled government slowly liberties , tells story attributed late leonard read explained wanted take liberty away americans , know cook frog mr read said ca n't cook frog boiling pot water throwing frog reflexes quick soon feet touch water , leap away must put frog pot cold water heat bit bit time frog realizes 's cooked , late americans anyone tried take freedoms , would naturally rebel suppress tyrant successful frog cooking , liberties taken little bit time last line article says , 's late us , water getting pretty warm 'd 's warm clipper keeping temperature upward course note followups redirected alt privacy clipper jim asic sc ti com ti pays absolutely attention opinions therefore , foregoing information cannot possibly represent ti 's viewpoint
prm ecn purdue edu \( philip r moyer \) subject text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption organization engineering computer network distribution na lines 27 article 1993apr17 clarinet com , brad clarinet com \( brad templeton \) writes let 's assume , moment , system really secure unless get halves encryption key two independent escrow houses let 's say even trust escrow houses one aclu eff \( i'm entirely joking two names \) case prince wales nothing worry system must respectfully disagree assertion , brad government notoriously sloppy physical , communications , information security ca n't keep computers safe , 're trying read dea adequately protecting national security information gao 92 31 excellent example i'm talking private sector organizations tend even lax security measures believe escrow organizations penetrated foreign intelligence services within months , weeks , selection private organizations lack resources full intelligence service take longer perhaps order one two years nonetheless , take place , without question philip r moyer ecn software staff engineering computer network voice 317 494 prm ecn purdue edu fax 317 494
bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de \( vesselin bontchev \) subject open letter mr clinton reply bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de organization virus test center , university hamburg lines 26 strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes 's simple way convert clipper proposal unexceptionable one make voluntary usually , reading proposal say voluntary program n't make desirable , though get high quality secure nsa classified technology agree escrow key otherwise secure \? know \? nsa trying make believe \? trust us yeah , right otherwise \? know tomorrow outlaw devices n't use technology \? promising \? gee , even read proposal regards , vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center , university hamburg tel 49 40 54715 224 , fax 49 40 54715 226 fachbereich informatik agn pgp 2 2 public key available request vogt koelln strasse 30 , rm 107 c e mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de 2000 hamburg 54 , germany
bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de \( vesselin bontchev \) subject tapped , code good reply bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de organization virus test center , university hamburg distribution na lines 99 strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes follows opinion asserted truth flames , please incompetent , like almost anything posted , 'll flamed , sorry comes background 20 years senior corporate staff executive two fortune 50 companies \( 20 years background two fortune 50 companies 've lived 30 years totalitarian regime , boy , recognize totalitarian plot see one 'd happy use crypto system supplied nsa business , told secure des , particular resistant sure would happy use anything tell secure 're talking intelligent people criminal ones , n't like previous sentence \) n't want privacy guaranteed government current future government , mind 'd happy even escrowed keys , provided happy bona fides escrow agencies \( federal reserve would certainly satisfy , would something set one big 8 accounting firms \) even ignore nonsense statement moment , even happy system current escrow agencies , guarantees 'll happy tomorrow , government changes \? current government throws away sheep skin \? sheep reasoning like get caught surprise , late , cryptography guaranteed breakable government already outlawed , 've already got privacy said breakable law enforcement agencies , law abiding , reasons use stronger one , right \? , using stronger one , something hide law enforcement agencies , right \? something unlawful , right \? therefore , strong crypto clear something unlawful 'd trust nsa president stated trap considering level competence cryptology demonstrated messages , would trust anything , ad hominem attack 's attack contents messages grin doors 'd even happier committee independent experts examined thing seal secrecy reported back secure know experts corrupted \? know make mistake \? know version algorithm let examine one really used \? regarding mistake even information let revealed serious security hole protocol 80 bit key split two 40 bit ones , thus whole system easily breakable , one keys 'd trust something nsa long 'd trust something swiss anybody japanese swiss japanese motivated simple greed nsa motivated wish control people 's drug dealers accounts swiss banks , instead american ones reason , trust swiss banks guess 'll trust swiss encryption see idea becoming suddenly popular \) may seem surprising , suggest corporations would feel way many \( pick one \) corporations attitude nsa part government support government , one famous ceo put one day 's surprising , reason give 's obvious us government put lot money behind program support thus , corporations try get piece pie supporting good old greed strong encryption widely available plot , companies n't see much money available even less , companies see penalties associated perspective another point view yeah , predicted , , support new system regards , vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center , university hamburg tel 49 40 54715 224 , fax 49 40 54715 226 fachbereich informatik agn pgp 2 2 public key available request vogt koelln strasse 30 , rm 107 c e mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de 2000 hamburg 54 , germany
bnr co uk \( rick \) subject clipper nay sayers sound like nntp posting host 47 20 192 158 organization network management systems , bell northern research x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 distribution na lines 45 nathaniel sammons \( ns111310 lance colostate edu \) wrote mon , 19 apr 1993 02 36 36 gmt gov establishes cryptography standard used everyone , everyone 's personal key divided two segments stored two separate , albeit easy find places , key 80 bits begin , screwed \( pardon mentioned article \) ! gov , believe , many others probably already cracking chips clipper chip made hell , probably based chip cracks , way 's easier break code , since classified algorythm , one knows crack easily agreed agency nsa \( whoever \) would approve public release crypto system , n't already technical means know decrypt everything whim surely whole point madness make joe public think communications kept safe , james bond nsa , need , full , decrypted access someone 's communications \? 'll quite , pull thought us government going release algorithm panel carefully chosen experts , would study deeply , report findings \? exactly people \? academics \? government sponsored researchers \? tiny \? , one , quite scared kind thing , plan support organizations \( even \) fighting clipper chip way hope sort thing n't start filtering ears uk government , european parliament gets wind , well , kiss goodbye form democracy europe want government able access , even search warrant , keys n't want keys 80 bits long begin ! hallelujah ! \) rick bell northern research europe tel 44 81 945 , fax 44 81 945 network management systems pgp 2 2 public key available request new , london uk email bnr co uk rt cix compulink co uk bnr ca
bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de \( vesselin bontchev \) subject secret algorithm clipper chip crypto key escrow keywords encryption , wiretap , clipper , key escrow , mykotronx reply bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de organization virus test center , university hamburg lines 157 strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes though may argue nose camel , 's worth noting government proposal limited scrambled telephony used purpose , extend electronic mail file usual , david sternlight demonstrating inability read proposal clearly states initiative involve creation new products accelerate development use advanced secure telecommunications networks wireless communications links speaks telecommunications general read , david maybe 'll understand next time nah , probably encryption , improvement current mass produced standard civilian technology , exceptions , limited easy break 's exactly government wants sheep minded people think let 's look current situation allows almost anybody eavesdrop almost everybody , unless secure \( mean secure \) encryption used happen \( \? ha ! \) new proposal gets accepted \? almost nobody except able eavesdrop everybody else , ability eavesdrop guaranteed ! proposal emphasizes former \( almost nobody \) clearly improvement forgets mention drawbacks latter \( guaranteed \) yes , statement assumes next step make strong crypto unlawful think happen \? good luck note big issue feds continued ability wiretap 's continued ability 's guaranteed ability go deep end long secure crypto e mail files , let 's focus yeah , 's exactly government wants think let 's take small steps , one time concentrate current one , n't think future trust us one question asked release whether proposal limited telephony , government intends expand 's asked proposal clearly says intention , unlike , read write though share many concerns expressed , find proposal less threatening many others , since right americans secure telephony , jerk pair clip leads goat eavesdrop would also plug security hole cellular cordless phones yes , stop jerk eavesdropping allow government eavesdrop \( scheme secure , course , yet proven \) know jerk fearing get government job tomorrow \? new proposal guarantees ability eavesdrop hell , even motivate get job indeed mentally pervert reading lines , infer system highly secure without access keys great greatest times david sternlight \( tm \) succeeded evaluate new system absense details whatsoever concluded highly secure guess , comes background working 50 years two major crypto evaluating companies , right \? gee , government save money trouble ask secret council crypto experts secretly analyse new secret method david sternlight already done job would meet needs u businesses confronted rich powerful adversaries , including french japanese security services rich japanese companies allows nsa make available better stuff protecting law enforcement needs trust us , 're government 're help legitimate u corporations trust nsa , would delighted high security system certified , even price depositing keys escrow see difficulty creating reliable prepared trade liberties promises future safety , deserve either \( something like n't exact quote , meaning \) said one great men maybe study works carefully , brains understand , course point view fair starting point concerns need addressed , including reliability escrows main question guarantee availability really secure cryptography masses gee , proposal saying guarantee every american still full right use kind encryption would like regard proposal default , voluntary implementation , would much less opposition reason , n't even try promise wonder orwell 10 years \? return get access high security crypto , return get crypto guaranteed crippled many suggested des systems may breakable nsa hence others similarly skilled endowed rumors , even true , done easily , new scheme guaranteed easily breakable anybody two keys might also breakable somebody knows right trick one nsa also told des secure , n't simply trust , huh \? least good possibility \( checked \) proposed system breakable n't guaranteed easily breakable get keys might even easier , evidence , wild speculation , trapdoors , government get keys trapdoors government 's hands keys pursuant legitimate court order thus protect legitimate communications economic adversaries , still able eavesdrop crooks pursuant court order legitimate \? decides communications legitimate \? oh , guess , 's government , right \? guys already keys \? 's kinda keys car asked decide right use legitimately discussing , let 's try avoid , personal attacks noise previous threads impossible , since demonstrating level incompetence ignorance threads substantive technical issue , personal remarks place discussion unfortunately , yet see posting technically competent message regards , vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center , university hamburg tel 49 40 54715 224 , fax 49 40 54715 226 fachbereich informatik agn pgp 2 2 public key available request vogt koelln strasse 30 , rm 107 c e mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de 2000 hamburg 54 , germany
bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de \( vesselin bontchev \) subject secret algorithm clipper chip crypto key escrow keywords encryption , wiretap , clipper , key escrow , mykotronx reply bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de organization virus test center , university hamburg lines 22 strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes nothing i'm would slightest interest president nixon typical example minded thinking know david sternlight jerk , i'm afraid case 90 population think like realize guys nsa , dorothy denning , us government already battle unless unless succeed wake people nah , 's unlikely events happening fast , cryptography sophisticated issue , almost nobody cares anyway thousand net readers wo n't make difference , millions caught asleep sad \( \( \( \( \( regards , vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center , university hamburg tel 49 40 54715 224 , fax 49 40 54715 226 fachbereich informatik agn pgp 2 2 public key available request vogt koelln strasse 30 , rm 107 c e mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de 2000 hamburg 54 , germany
smb research att com \( steven bellovin \) subject technical details organization bell laboratories lines 116 corrections additions hellman 's note , courtesy dorothy denning , reposted permission two requests first , note roles s1 s2 appears others anyone knows values construct unit key nature generation process k1 k2 neither produced alone thus , scheme cannot implemented one repository generates first half key , another generates second ominous second postings revealed scripture , carefully spook postings n't attempt draw hidden meanings \( opposed , say , official announcements clipper \) leave denning given hellman 's record opposition des , goes back folks newsgroup knew read , n't think integrity oh yeah folks invented clipper n't stupid think something n't make sense , 's almost certainly n't understand goals steve bellovin date sun , 18 apr 93 07 56 39 edt denning cs georgetown edu \( dorothy denning \) subject clipper chip \( long list folks \) also briefed nsa fbi , let add comments marty 's message clipper chip secret crypto algorithm embedded algorithm operates 64 bit blocks \( like des \) chip supports 4 des modes operation algorithm uses 32 rounds scrambling compared 16 des addition system key , user get choose key change often desired call key plain old k message sent first k session key shared sender receiver method \( e g , public key \) used establish session key telephone security devices , new chip , key negotiated using public key protocol encrypted k , k encrypted unit key uk , serial number unit added produce three part message encrypted system key sk producing e e k , e k uk , serial number sk understanding e k encrypted sk \( called family key \) decrypt key corresponding sk held law enforcement anyone first hand knowledge \? also check , 7am sunday want wait unit key generated xor two 80 bit random numbers k1 k2 \( uk k1 k2 \) kept two escrow unit key , also called chip key , generated serial number n follows let n1 , n2 , n3 64 bit blocks derived n , let s1 s2 two 80 bit seeds used keys compute 64 bit block r1 e e n1 s1 s2 s1 \( note like using des triple encryption mode two keys \) similarly compute blocks r2 r3 starting n2 n3 \( i'm whether keys s1 s2 change fact 're called seeds suggests might \) r1 , r2 , r3 concatenated together giving 192 bits first 80 bits form k1 next 80 bits form k2 remaining bits discarded authorities escrow authorities still decided attorney general , stressed nsa law enforcement agencies , must parties acceptable users system unbiased marty right fbi asked suggestions please pass along reasons addition marty 's criteria , would add agencies must established record able safeguard highly sensitive information suggestions 've received far include sri , rand , mitre , national labs \( sandia , lanl , los alamos \) , treasury , gao court order obtains k1 k2 , thence k , law enforcement agency use sk decrypt information flowing suspected link aside guess may constantly links , without court order , since almost impossible tell links message flow understanding one decode box operated fbi service provider isolate communications stream pass fbi pass decode box , keyed k wiretap authorizations levy asked details could review cases required law , agent told predecessors turned 40 50 blank , signed forms every time levi comply changed system , lesson clear single person authority power authorize wiretaps single person , least fbi taps completing mound paperwork , agent must get approval several people chain includes fbi legal counsel request even taken attorney general final approval dorothy denning
bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de \( vesselin bontchev \) subject wh proposal police point view reply bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de organization virus test center , university hamburg lines 30 strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes dwight tuinstra posts interesting message comments effects clipper chip state local police actually , reading lines , could good thing civil liberties one respect , since least prevent cowboy cops cowboy state local reading traffic tap illegally instead reading lines , try think little bit ok , 's way difficult , hints indeed , new proposal imposes additional burden local police , badly want tape magic cookie mom telling phone , guess \? propose new technology removed \? implement \? course , wo n't want wait get approval two different agencies decrypt conversation two child molesters , meanwhile two child molesters might molesting child , right \? , way get access keys quickly , right \? like , could copy database , worry warrant later regards , vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center , university hamburg tel 49 40 54715 224 , fax 49 40 54715 226 fachbereich informatik agn pgp 2 2 public key available request vogt koelln strasse 30 , rm 107 c e mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de 2000 hamburg 54 , germany
grady netcom com \( 1016 2ef221 \) subject powerful similarity organization capriccioso x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 44 've asked supply specific directions automated fetching source documentation agrep , powerful similarity pattern matching tool cs arizona edu 192 12 69 5 directory agrep readme agrep agrep 2 04 tar z agrep agrep ps 1 z agrep agrep ps 2 z \( ps files optional postscript docs reasonably good research report benchmarks included \) note macintosh mpw users hours , ported tool mpw 3 2 3 running system 7 1 would like e mail copy tool suitable dropping mpw tools folder , please write purely cryptographic uses tool 've lots fun picking lost references things i'm interested example , starting search like agrep 1 immediately finds references like always missed see many times john 's name mentioned cud archives \( often \) name \? usual , e mail uuencoded tar z upon request cannot anonymous ftp grady netcom com 2ef221 15 e2 ad d3 d1 c6 f3 fc 58 ac f7 3d 4f 01 1e 2f
aj sage cc purdue edu \( john \) subject text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption summary got us today keywords constitution , misinterpretation , law organization purdue daemons distribution na lines 26 misinterpretation , though crime , united states lawyers use make bread butter manchester , ct years ago , small company wanted run game system , similar many aspects photon \( tm \) three lawyers hundred citizens found ancient law manchester 's books clearly context designed prohibit travelling enumerating features carnival felt time made prohibition obvious among things shooting , lawyers opposition wanted upon judge took two words law , completely context , ruled could operate manchester keep mind travelling use projectile weapons shooting , light beams clearly context , got shafted , two words applied , denial operating permission justified text law 'd post , i'm afraid n't remember well enough even try little bit two words stuck well , though john jad expert cc purdue edu
brands cwi nl \( stefan brands \) subject report privacy protecting line cash available organization cwi , amsterdam lines 60 recently published new privacy protecting line electronic cash system technical report cwi phd student david chaum 's cryptography group , group long history research field privacy protecting cash systems report called cs ps z , contains 77 pages , retrieved ftp cwi nl \( 192 16 184 180 \) directory pub aa postscript file suitable abstract \( \) present new line electronic cash system based problem , called representation problem , little use made literature thus far system first based entirely discrete using representation problem basic concept , techniques introduced enable us construct protocols withdrawal payment use cut choose methodology earlier systems consequence , cash system much efficient computation communication complexity system proposed previously another important aspect system concerns contrary previously proposed systems , correctness mathematically proven great extent specifically , make one plausible assumption concerning single hash function , ability break system seems imply one break diffie hellman problem system offers number extensions hard achieve previously known systems opinion interesting entire cash system \( including extensions \) incorporated setting based wallets observers , important advantage double spending prevented first place , rather detecting identity double fact particular , incorporated even stringent requirements conceivable privacy user , seems impossible previously proposed systems another benefit system framing attempts bank negligible probability success \( independent computing power \) simple mechanism within system , something previous solutions lack entirely furthermore , basic cash system extended checks , multi show cash , retaining computational efficiency challenged try break system ! made particular effort keep report self contained possible nevertheless , questions , please e mail try reply good comments also welcome ! stefan brands , cwi , 413 , 1098 sj amsterdam , netherlands tel 31 20 , e mail brands cwi nl
habs panix com \( harry shapiro \) subject source announcement organization panix public access unix , nyc lines 27 marc oliver mit edu marc mit edu \( marc horowitz n1nzu \) writes received mail mitch kapor saying ask list , know added i'm sure applies others list , guess initial theory right , clipper list someone 's idea bad joke guess happy n't conspiracy also contact mitch believe says n't ask clipper list also forwarded traffic recieved list placed ftp site however , first alias clipper list csspab another mailing list basically contained addresses staffers board members nist security board several people accounts within dockmaster domain people might wish foia harry harry shapiro habs panix com list administrator extropy institute mailing list private communication community since 1991
amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) subject tapped , code good organization intercon systems corporation herndon , va usa lines 35 distribution world reply amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) nntp posting host chaos intercon com x newsreader intercon tcp connect ii 1 1 uni acs bu edu \( shaen bernhardt \) writes wish could agree ask would private sector entity wish buy crypto system known least partially compromised \? \( \) use sensitive important traffic , \( b \) system cheap example , n't cordless phone clipper , would local men blue really want listen talk friends order pizza , i'm worse , n't worry local kids neighbors say , clipper raises bar insecure channels n't make secure , means , wall , even fbi get master key court order , still better keep grass sign answer seems obvious , would n't hardware compromised des example \( triple des better one \) , buy des encrypted cellular phone \? much cost \? personally , cylink stuff budget personal use \) reconcile administrations self proclaimed purpose providing law enforcement access encrypted data without making clipper system crypto available u \? second fourth amendments come mind amanda walker intercon systems corporation
bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de \( vesselin bontchev \) subject text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption reply bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de organization virus test center , university hamburg distribution na lines 32 rlward1 afterlife ncsc mil \( robert ward \) writes since us constitutions guarantees right every american bear arms , every american entitled , matter read applicable part constitution interpreted context \? yes btw , appropriate amendments posted time ago , please posting misinterpretation refers right people organize militia , individual carry handguns , grenades , assault rifles 's ok , 's ok month ago expressed belief right means shoot neighbor much necessary ensure people 's right free got flamed lots american gun supporters thought never mind new cripple chip purely american problem , deal mess wanted share bit experience living 30 years totalitarian regime \( i'm bulgarian \) thought might useful oh well regards , vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center , university hamburg tel 49 40 54715 224 , fax 49 40 54715 226 fachbereich informatik agn pgp 2 2 public key available request vogt koelln strasse 30 , rm 107 c e mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de 2000 hamburg 54 , germany
srt duke cs duke edu \( stephen r tate \) subject clipper algorithm secret organization duke university computer science dept durham , n c lines 31 article 1993apr18 358 iecc cambridge us johnl iecc cambridge us \( john r levine \) writes occurred algorithm secret published , one could build physically identical clone versions chip would interoperate official clipper chips would n't provide keys escrow houses necessarily could release details algorithm without releasing system key \( called sk hellman \) would make people happy , sort verification procedure key exchange , official chips would work official chips words , secrecy sk makes physically identical clone versions impossible secrecy algorithm n't necessary course , revealing algorithm opens attacks sk since units share key , compromising may big deal personally , would n't feel comfortable knowing one secret 80 bit number held many places guaranteed security course , compromise sk n't necessarily mean system compromised , 's impossible tell whether 's true secret algorithm incidentally , 's keep secret algorithm using secret sk main key , uk marginally important court order uk may even necessary wiretap steve tate srt cs duke edu reason mathematics enjoys special esteem , dept computer science sciences , laws duke university absolutely certain indisputable , durham , nc sciences extent debatable \( einstein \)
dcs glasgow ac uk \( simon k train \) subject help please ! organization glasgow university computing science dept distribution net lines 7 phd student get sci crypt group posted directly \? \? \? also would like feed back encryption schemes research finite fields applied takers reply gla ac uk thanks gavin
amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) subject secret algorithm clipper chip crypto key escrow organization intercon systems corporation herndon , va usa lines 61 distribution world reply amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) nntp posting host chaos intercon com x newsreader intercon tcp connect ii 1 1 pmetzger snark shearson com \( perry e metzger \) writes i'm political dissident i'm scared shitless feds listening calls opinions sort would get disappeared slightly less free society knows sort society five ten years \? friends phones tapped none theoretical understand , believe , number kinds conversation communication engage would n't even consider using scheme hand , n't see clipper providing secure channel prevents casual eavesdropping part worried per se trying look clipper serious security tool simply ludicrous 's voice scrambler , nothing still plenty market real crypto better status quo , well , first , get companies like cylink today work well cost arm leg , though clipper obviously aimed mass market certainly wo n't put cylink business addition , number groups working building software turn pc privacy enhanced phone right working overdrive mode old news crypto restrictions yet use anything want right point maintain right restrictions example 're networking software vendor large overseas share market cannot currently ship pem , even simple des , products without case case approval department state itar presents material trade barrier us firms trying compete international information systems markets sure , use whatever freebie software want talk bbs 's usa , hand , want strong crypto \( pkcs , example \) default electronic mail , worldwide want priests able hear confession email want lawyers able talk clients confidence email , doctors talk patients want able order products favorite japanese mail order catalog net want able sign contracts , business , electronically far result current restrictions systems , especially beyond borders usa clipper irrelevant , authorities feeling safe , better danger trying put restrictions place , theory good enough anyone nothing hide argument , course , utter bs , much one needs assault rifle amanda walker intercon systems corporation
amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) subject text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption organization intercon systems corporation herndon , va usa lines 12 distribution world reply amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) nntp posting host chaos intercon com x newsreader intercon tcp connect ii 1 1 rlward1 afterlife ncsc mil \( robert ward \) writes refers right people organize militia , individuals carry handguns , grenades , assault rifles false , federal courts affirmed many occasions getting sci crypt territory , though amanda walker intercon systems corporation
res colnet cmhnet org \( rob stampfli \) subject fifth amendment passwords organization little none lines 20 postive someone correct wrong , n't fifth also cover forced actions self incriminating \? mike godwin mnemonic eff org , posted permission carl sadly , suspects compelled give handwriting voice exemplars , take blood dna tests sure mike correct point also pretty sure administering truth serum would ruled violation right incriminate , salient difference \? drawing blood injecting truth serum , permanent damage simply come view one acceptable , viewed fundamental violation one 's rights \? case , expand protections 5th amendment incorporate new technologies without results different judges personal opinions \? rob stampfli rob colnet cmhnet org neat thing standards 614 864 ham radio oh many choose
arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \( ken arromdee \) subject tapped , code good organization johns hopkins university cs dept lines 18 article 1qpg8finn982 dns1 nmsu edu amolitor nmsu edu \( andrew molitor \) writes yes , evil guys fbi probably , effort , abuse system got news , evil guys fbi decide want persecute , 're gonna , 're gonna hate fact , fbi n't want listen phone calls , , 're using triple des , 'll get parabolic microphone point head anyway , somehow , mean smart make job easier first day christmas truelove served leftover turkey ! second day christmas truelove served turkey casserole made leftover turkey days 3 4 deleted flaming turkey wings ! pizza hut commercial \( tlu gic bait \) ken arromdee \( arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \)
lambda msfc nasa gov \( paul robichaux \) subject suggestions escrow agencies \( technical details \) reply lambda msfc nasa gov organization new technology , inc lines 53 \( response dr denning 's letter steven bellovin comments invited paul \) alt privacy clipper , steve bellovin posted message , included brief passage concerning selection agencies escrow agencies glad see proposal written states escrow agencies wo n't law enforcement agencies would argue , however , one escrow agencies n't federal private citizen , would feel much secure person papers knowing organization committed individual civil liberties aclu nra come mind safeguarding half key aclu nra government pressure simple expedient fact supported , funded , overtly controlled government federal federally funded candidate agencies mentioned , following comments sri , rand , mitre , national labs agree great experience safeguarding sensitive information convinced would adequately safeguard information , since case requiring disclosure , 's likely pressure disclosure possibly wrongful disclosure gao perhaps would like see concrete evidence fidelity ability treasury \? surely 're joking perhaps 'd ask batf safeguard keys maybe federal reserve would better choice ever since last fall 's trial balloon posted sci crypt , name synonymous place great deal trust ability government agencies agents act within law agree part agencies agents almost always act properly however , enough cases sworn agents federal government acted wrongly make feel two federal agencies key unacceptable respectfully , paul robichaux \( speaking nti , , nasa \) paul robichaux , help stop big brother chip ! nti mission software development div ripem key request
steve b access digex com \( steve brinich \) subject text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 8 distribution na nntp posting host access digex net 're drifting topic case , check topics devoted gun rights issues , find ample evidence misinformation assertion term people second amendment mysteriously taken meaning opposite meaning exact term first fourth amendments
caronni nessie cs id ethz ch \( germano caronni \) subject technical details organization swiss federal institute technology \( eth \) , zurich , ch lines 107 article 1993apr19 ulysses att com smb research att com \( steven bellovin \) writes corrections additions hellman 's note , courtesy dorothy denning , reposted permission two requests first , note roles s1 s2 appears others anyone knows values construct unit key nature generation process k1 k2 neither produced alone thus , scheme cannot implemented one repository generates first half key , another generates second ominous second postings revealed scripture , carefully spook postings n't attempt draw hidden meanings \( opposed , say , official announcements clipper \) leave denning given hellman 's record opposition des , goes back folks newsgroup knew read , n't think integrity oh yeah folks invented clipper n't stupid think something n't make sense , 's almost certainly n't understand goals addition \( posted permission \) tech details \? \? \? use s1 s2 date mon , 19 apr 93 08 51 57 edt denning cs cosc georgetown edu \( dorothy denning \) subject clipper chip another conversation nsa clarify features clipper please feel free distribute messages clipper name encryption algorithm skipjack martin hellman written serial number unit added produce three part message encrypted system key sk producing e e k , e k uk , serial number sk responded understanding e k encrypted sk \( called family key \) decrypt key corresponding sk held law enforcement anyone first hand knowledge \? correct e k encrypted sk however , skipjack single key system , , course , separate decrypt key family key sk unit key , also called chip key , generated serial number n follows let n1 , n2 , n3 64 bit blocks derived n , let s1 s2 two 80 bit seeds used keys compute 64 bit block r1 e e n1 s1 s2 s1 \( note like using des triple encryption mode two keys \) similarly compute blocks r2 r3 starting n2 n3 \( i'm whether keys s1 s2 change fact 're called seeds suggests might \) r1 , r2 , r3 concatenated together giving 192 bits first 80 bits form k1 next 80 bits form k2 remaining bits discarded seeds s1 s2 change whole process performed laptop computer , s1 s2 supplied two independent people one person knows s1 s2 used entire programming session generate keys stream serial numbers everything discarded end \( computer could thrown desired \) serial number 30 bits values n1 , n2 , n3 formed padding serial number fixed 34 bit blocks \( separate padding value \) resulting keys k1 k2 output onto separate floppy disks , paired serial number pair stored separate file floppy disks taken away two separate people behalf two escrow agencies dorothy denning denning cs georgetown edu sure technical detail known time goes please remark , posting , automatically agree 's contents implications n't swamp mailbox \) think valuable addition less technical discussion rising , , n't mind call s1 s2 , could imagine key generation process working without seeds dependency k1 , k2 serial number friendly greetings , germano caronni instruments register things 're designed register space still contains infinite unknowns pgp key id 341027 germano caronni caronni nessie cs id ethz ch fd560ccf586f3da747ea3c94dd01720f
ethridge \( allen ethridge \) subject tapped , code good nntp posting host organization bnr , inc x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 19 amanda walker \( amanda intercon com \) wrote uni acs bu edu \( shaen bernhardt \) writes deletions reconcile administrations self proclaimed purpose providing law enforcement access encrypted data without making clipper system crypto available u \? second fourth amendments come mind think heard someplace \( misc legal \? , comp org eff talk \? \) courts pretty much eliminated fourth amendment already allen well sf ca us words got wound ethridge bnr ca get well , opinions believe jim morrison
holland cs colostate edu \( douglas craig holland \) subject secret algorithm clipper chip crypto key escrow nntp posting host beethoven cs colostate edu organization colorado state university , computer science department keywords encryption , wiretap , clipper , key escrow , mykotronx lines 29 article strnlghtc5pucl 6kp netcom com strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes article apr18 204843 50316 yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu \( douglas craig holland \) writes let ask would trust richard nixon crypto keys \? would n't take mean president nixon , private citizen nixon sure nothing i'm would slightest interest president nixon sure n't watched \? let remind watergate tip iceberg nixon extensively used nsa watch people n't like according decrypting puzzle palace presumably , nsa restricted conducting american surveillance foreign intelligence surveillance act 1978 \( \) series presidential directives , beginning one issued president ford following richard nixon 's bold misuse nsa , explicitly directed nsa conduct widespread domestic surveillance political dissidents drug users course , laws saying gov't supposed conduct illegal surveillance n't mean laws ca n't broken way doug holland
zrepachol cc curtin edu au \( paul repacholi \) subject going \? lines 27 organization curtin university technology distribution inet article sfu ca , fraser sfu ca \( guy thomas \) writes zrepachol cc curtin edu au \( paul repacholi \) writes article 1993apr16 1 cc curtin edu au , zrepachol cc curtin edu au \( paul repacholi \) writes ca n't bothered reading , get video manufacturing consent reply mail queries n't know video available yet asked month ao told rsn yes national film board canada ah , usa thats relief , thought must slipping second \) st noam radio tonight , published new book 501 years published south end guess could confirm please \? would love hear thinks clipper scam paul ps first posting saw thought joke bad taste person broke news
cuffell spot colorado edu \( tim cuffel \) subject secret algorithm clipper chip crypto key escrow keywords encryption , wiretap , clipper , key escrow , mykotronx nntp posting host spot colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 29 article strnlghtc5pucl 6kp netcom com strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes article apr18 204843 50316 yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu \( douglas craig holland \) writes let ask would trust richard nixon crypto keys \? would n't take mean president nixon , private citizen nixon sure nothing i'm would slightest interest president nixon david david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted ergo , life sufficiently boring , need privacy \? \( meant personal , logical conclusion statement \) tim cuffel finger pgp 2 1 cia admitted assassination saddam one goals failed , course seems though downtown dallas trick works
karn unix ka9q ampr org \( phil karn \) subject fifth amendment passwords nntp posting host unix ka9q ampr org reply karn servo qualcomm com organization qualcomm , inc lines 19 article 1993apr18 colnet cmhnet org , res colnet cmhnet org \( rob stampfli \) writes sadly , suspects compelled give handwriting voice exemplars , take blood dna tests sure mike correct point also pretty sure administering truth serum would ruled violation right incriminate , salient difference \? find salient difference number 5th amendment related supreme court opinions court limits 5th amendment protections call testimonial evidence , opposed physical evidence whole question would hinge whether crypto key would considered testimonial evidence suppose arguments could made either way , though obviously would hope would considered testimonial phil
srt duke cs duke edu \( stephen r tate \) subject technical details organization duke university computer science dept durham , n c lines 23 article 1993apr19 bernina ethz ch caronni nessie cs id ethz ch \( germano caronni \) \( actually dorothy denning \) writes seeds s1 s2 change let see straight person knows s1 s2 , serial number unit , 's easy reconstruct uk course , know sk , family key , easily get serial number unit made transmission s1 s2 used batch unit keys , number used s1 s2 pairs probably fairly low course , believe nsa fbi name favorite government agency know sk needs s1 s2 pairs , presto , nasty details like court orders wire taps longer necessary , i'm one people government every turn , taking someone 's word s1 s2 pairs kept around pushing i'm willing believe little bit far steve tate srt cs duke edu reason mathematics enjoys special esteem , dept computer science sciences , laws duke university absolutely certain indisputable , durham , nc sciences extent debatable \( einstein \)
grant dockmaster ncsc mil \( lynn r grant \) subject key registering bodies organization yale cs mail news gateway lines 22 trust nsa registrar clipper chip key halves , would trust mitre either mitre lots work nsa , least trusted product evaluation program \( evaluation commercial shelf software efficacy safeguarding classified information \) , assume , less open , programs least two \( federally funded research development corporations \) work nsa aerospace corporation institute defense analysis , nsa untrustworthy \( position neutral , purposes posting \) , would position exert economic pressure upon mitre release key halves demand could say , n't cooperate us , 'll place evaluation contracts aerospace ida saying people nsa , mitre , aerospace , ida dishonest folk since people , people occasionally go bad , system works better organizations depending upon independent really , course , speak , employer lynn grant
pmetzger snark shearson com \( perry e metzger \) subject wh proposal police point view reply strnlght netcom com 's message mon , 19 apr 1993 05 46 03 gmt reply pmetzger lehman com organization lehman brothers lines 16 article 704 netcom com strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes extensive discussion eff forum , example , taps used develop information could lead admissible evidence might put stop things , must time time simple fishing expeditions far likely , things continue done matter assurances given key escrow likely going prove joke perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire , laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
caronni nessie cs id ethz ch \( germano caronni \) subject technical details organization swiss federal institute technology \( eth \) , zurich , ch lines 120 hmm , followup posting well , cares first let try work facts get know clipper chip , hellman denning able tell us chip confined \( digital \) telephony , performs general encryption symmetric manner chip supports cfb ofb ecb \( whatever fourth mode operation des \) , algorithm consists 32 rounds whatever , takes 80 bit keys input data seems 64 bit \? yes two people want secure communication \( whatever means clipper involved \) first agree one secret key \( one key per direction \? \) exchange key via dh schemes however somehow two feed secret key clipper chip ready work clipper chip carries unique serial number \( 30 bit 's \) , 160 key bits 160 key bits seem gained encrypting serial number 160 seed bits \( seed bits seem stored chip \) beginning communication \( perhaps certain \? \? \) sending fist real 64 bit output first encryption clipper chip put 's packets \( guess 3 \) represent serial number , session key might look like x e k k2 , serial number x transformation 3 \? packets involving family key family \( sp \? \) key equal chips \( x might simple xor \? \? \? \) , \( digital \? \) phone call done usual , every packet encrypted decrypted clipper denning describes k1 k2 shall generated , using seed 160 bit 's , leaving alone politics , concern much , american \( tm \) \) , weak points scheme , might exploited several parties far know generation k1 , k2 s1 s2 look like obvious backdoor could used generate chip keys knowing serial number \( also family key \) chip really ca n't imagine seeds would needed otherwise , true random sources generation k1 , k2 bought much money , escrows get 80 bit 160 bit key security could \( little existant \) giving 160 bits , xored together give k1 , k2 let 's simply assume escrows trustworthy , ca n't fooled criminals law agencies \( quarrel escrows l e would hinder l e duties , \) keys surrendered , corresponding chip compromised forever clever , imho \) \) sending encrypted session keys phone call police \( whoever \) want 's listen \? escrows could simply decode session key send back police \( would naturally warrant expired \) would better technical solution , guess politics work way apparently \( miss stated \) one performing actually decodes intercepted messages shall fbi great local guys inter \( understand \) traffic anymore mean fbi right legal wiretaps \? \( law , idea allowed tap , \) certainly means watched routed automatically service providing company fbi , watched one means far understand family key known switching company , providing cellular phone family key secret , thus serial numbers calls readable anybody cares like traffic analysis ! guess , happens , use chip ecb mode , first packets chip somehow lost garbled \? session key would actually line \? hmmm n't difficult \) last point , side read heard clipper \( programming language dbase , \? \) \) seems many advantages , ! rights please note idea talking ! ! ! grady netcom com \( 1016 2ef221 \) amendment 1 congress shall make law respecting establishment religion , prohibiting free exercise thereof abridging freedom speech , press right people peaceably assemble , petition government redress grievances text actually bill rights , \? maybe need extend amendment 4 cover information communication \? sure position government actually legally tries ban cryptography \( arms \) amendment say may , conditions hmm , tricky situation \( actually make much sense discuss topic sci crypt discussion technical details system highly suggested appreciated \) friendly greetings , germano caronni disclaimer everything derived things heard read persons , everything could wrong opinions thoughts mine , subject change without notification warranty , neither implicit explicit etc etc etc ad p please n't ask political opinions , might bother \( information read last line p signature \) instruments register things 're designed register space still contains infinite unknowns pgp key id 341027 germano caronni caronni nessie cs id ethz ch fd560ccf586f3da747ea3c94dd01720f
paul charon gsfc nasa gov \( paul olson \) subject white house public encryption management fact sheet news software vax vms vnews 1 41 organization mission operations data systems distribution na lines 44 article transfer stratus com , cme ellisun sw stratus com \( carl ellison \) writes article c5lgaz 250 dove nist gov clipper csrc ncsl nist gov \( clipper chip announcement \) writes , attorney general shall utilize funds department justice asset forfeiture super surplus fund effect purchase talk adding insult injury , one , believe use civil forfeiture abolished decent administration , continued instead , looks like ill gotten gain used help pay wiretap equipment wholeheartedly agree knowing let law enforcement agencies seize property fifth amendment constitution tells responsibility self take government back self serving politicians create laws rules better positions within government allowed take much power people nation situation changed allowing law enforcement agencies use seized property pay drug informants lie continue deal drugs tantamount making pact devil 's vicious cycle law enforcement agencies motivated seize property fund activities easy way citizen regain property intact taken gives even incentive agencies take property 's also interesting note two months ago rush limbaugh said clinton would force shortly clinton henchmen firmly believe strong ubiquitous government control anytime leader believes , leader use every means possible retain control take take government back otherwise end living equivalent high tech third world dictatorship take responsibility , personal welfare , actions paul j olson vax systems manager resident amiga addict c voice 301 286 , 301 210 decnet charon paul internet paul charon gsfc nasa gov xx disclaimer statements messages amiga ignorance renewable resource p j o'rourke
zrepachol cc curtin edu au \( paul repacholi \) subject clipper chip long follow lines 478 organization curtin university technology article rand org , jim rand org \( jim gillogly \) writes document anonymous ftp directory nist looks like shoe dropped jim gillogly trewesday , 25 astron r 1993 , 17 00 thanks posting making available post long , comment , reluctantly leaving original place provide context please note alt group set clipper stuff note file also available via anonymous file transfer csrc ncsl nist gov directory pub nistnews via nist computer security bbs 301 948 5717 white house office press secretary immediate release april 16 , 1993 statement press secretary president today announced new initiative bring federal government together industry voluntary hum , , vlsi mykotronx \? wonder happened ibm , right street scheme voluntary \? mr orwell would love program improve security privacy telephone communications meeting legitimate needs law enforcement telephone encryption years behind digital ones like rsa , idea , even des , true , straw man claim context non real time circuits e mail like initiative involve creation new products accelerate development use advanced secure telecommunications networks wireless communications links would propose mandated use isdn would lot long little dialogue private sector law enforcement community resolve tension economic vitality real challenges protecting americans rather use technology accommodate sometimes competing interests economic growth , privacy law enforcement , previous policies pitted government industry rights privacy law enforcement sophisticated encryption technology used years protect electronic funds transfer used protect electronic mail computer files encryption des technology help americans protect business secrets unauthorized release personal information , also used terrorists , drug dealers , criminals note use word business whole tenor release seems establishing ground rule business use legitimate debate want drop wife 's ear remain secret private , even agenda debate note role contain private info reference information already hands others bit also drawing long bow cases people legitimate access abusing , revealing , often selling info people , course , proposal , people keys criminals also use , courts , cia , white house officials pens go business outlawed well \? yeah , several would better idea clipper ! , protections law courts seriously last decade state art microcircuit called clipper chip developed government engineers chip represents nsa new approach encryption technology yeah , bit true used new , relatively inexpensive encryption devices attached ordinary telephone scrambles telephone communications using encryption algorithm powerful many commercial use today note repeated mixing telephone encryption demo claim pots would good nights entertainment suspect note also 'all' , general tone implies new technology help companies protect proprietary information , protect privacy personal phone conversations prevent unauthorized release data transmitted electronically time technology preserves ability federal , state local law enforcement agencies intercept lawfully phone conversations criminals case record seems indicate needed brutal tightening current abuses heard , yet , case use secure encryption men black side , abuse law enforcers well documented , even govt agencies phone vs blurred yet key escrow system established ensure clipper chip used protect privacy law abiding americans key escrow system established ensure clipper chip used protect privacy law abiding americans lets run line twice carefully says stated purpose key make use clipper compulsory note word ensure , , leave person asked included outlawing encryptions , answer press release , yes device containing chip two unique keys , numbers needed authorized government agencies decode messages encoded device device manufactured , two keys deposited separately two key escrow data bases established attorney general access keys limited government officials legal authorization conduct wiretap wiretap warrent clipper chip technology provides law enforcement new authorities access content private conversations americans makes sure illegal ones preserved demonstrate effectiveness new technology , attorney general soon purchase several thousand new devices addition , respected experts outside government offered access confidential details algorithm assess capabilities publicly report findings find many experts ex kgb people looking contract \? \) later posting asks , stu iiis already interesting see military us start use , secure , n't govt answer point actions chip important step addressing problem encryption 's dual edge sword encryption helps protect privacy individuals industry , also shield criminals terrorists need clipper chip approaches provide law abiding citizens access encryption need prevent criminals using hide illegal activities order assess technology trends explore new approaches \( like key escrow system \) , president directed government agencies develop comprehensive policy encryption accommodates privacy citizens , including need employ voice data encryption business purposes , personal use seems question ability authorized officials access telephone calls data , proper court legal order , necessary protect citizens ah , always needed seems effective timely use modern technology build national information infrastructure needed promote economic growth competitiveness american industry global marketplace need u companies manufacture export high technology products itars seem slightly president directed early frequent consultations affected industries , congress groups advocate privacy rights individuals policy options developed administration committed working private sector spur development national information infrastructure use new telecommunications computer technologies give americans unprecedented access information infrastructure high speed networks \( information superhighways \) transmit video , images , hdtv programming , huge data files easily today 's telephone system transmits voice note wonderfull stuff secret people' able express opinion , hence desired result emerge since encryption technology play increasingly important role infrastructure , federal government must act quickly develop consistent , comprehensive policies regarding use administration committed policies protect americans' right privacy also protecting break law encryption codes around millenia equilibrium technology time systematic study resulted swing favor , moment doubt factoring problem fall time probably practical purposes middle next century information provided accompanying fact sheet provisions president 's directive acquire new encryption technology also available additional details , call mat heyman , national institute standards technology , \( 301 \) 975 2758 questions answers clinton administration's telecommunications initiative q approach expand authority government agencies listen phone conversations \? clipper chip technology provides law enforcement new authorities access content private conversations americans q suppose law enforcement agency conducting wiretap drug smuggling ring intercepts conversation encrypted using device would decipher message \? would obtain legal authorization , normally court order , wiretap first place would present documentation authorization two entities responsible safeguarding keys obtain keys device used drug smugglers key split two parts , stored separately order ensure security key escrow system q run key escrow data banks \? two key escrow data banks run two independent entities point , department justice administration yet determine agencies oversee key escrow data banks little hard non proposal q strong security device \? sure strong security \? system secure many voice encryption systems readily available today note drop back 'phone true answer , rephrased sucks big time anyone drive crypt work bench use light amusement breakfast algorithm remain classified protect security key escrow system , link security key , actual algorithm real winner given 2 secret 40 bit numbers , could someone please explain details encryption algorithm reveal \? willing invite independent panel cryptography experts evaluate algorithm assure potential users unrecognized vulnerabilities make sure read cvs real , ok q whose decision propose product \? national security council , justice department , commerce department , key agencies involved decision approach endorsed president , vice president , appropriate cabinet officials quick , looking back , name missing list \? q consulted \? congress \? industry \? going discussions congress industry encryption issues , expect discussions intensify carry review encryption policy briefed members congress industry leaders decisions related initiative people agree us think buck q government provide hardware manufacturers \? government designed developed key access encryption microcircuits , providing microcircuits product manufacturers product manufacturers acquire microcircuits chip manufacturer produces reverse engineering provisions act could relevent q provides clipper chip \? mykotronx programs facility torrance , california , sell chip encryption device manufacturers programming function could licensed vendors future q buy one encryption devices \? expect several manufacturers consider incorporating clipper chip devices n't unless one 'right people' q administration unable find technological solution like one proposed , would administration willing use legal remedies restrict access powerful encryption devices \? fundamental policy question considered broad policy review key escrow missed word secret needs grammar lesson mechanism provide americans encryption product secure , convenient , less expensive others readily available today , one piece must comprehensive approach encryption technology , administration developing would say less secure , less , expensive \( pgp free \) , less available , prone proofs welcome note proof administration saying , since encryption threatens public safety effective law enforcement , prohibit outright \( countries effectively done \) u saying every american , matter right , entitled unbreakable commercial encryption product n't seem saying anything makes much sense proposal prohibit except limited way , one explicit reference personal rights denial yes , n't think mexicans , , canucks included clinton et als gesture false tension created assessment issue either proposition rather , concerns , fact , harmoniously balanced reasoned , balanced approach proposed clipper chip similar encryption techniques false balance two repugnant points right privacy hand waved non existance putting behind false assessment assumed removal right take ever steps deem suitable protect privacy non negotiable , hence defined govenment language non existant n't agree , must criminal , criminals n't agree laws also note non question possible q decision indicate clinton administration 's policy toward encryption differ bush administration \? indicates understand importance encryption technology telecommunications computing committed working industry public interest groups find innovative ways protect americans' privacy , help businesses compete , ensure law enforcement agencies tools need fight crime terrorism indicates know bush dropped ball nasty insert suitable stamp , outbreak freedom ultra national sentiment q devices exportable \? devices use government hardware \? voice encryption devices subject export control requirements case case review export required ensure appropriate use devices true encryption devices one attractions technology protection give u companies operating home abroad mind , expect export licenses granted case case basis u companies seeking use devices secure communications abroad plan review possibility permitting wider exportability products one real giggle australia france , reveal keys , algorithm n't think 's top list things must , restrictions protect trying sell bill crock others using , must nuts ! good luck folks paul
rab well sf ca us \( bob bickford \) subject technical details nntp posting host well sf ca us organization whole earth 'lectronic link lines 17 system , , key would appear cryptographically useless , since every chip must know able remove effects bitstream widely known almost immediately system deployed , since 's pointed separate decrypt key key used encryption decryption goes benefit use system wide key skipjack robert bickford hacker person derives joy rab well sf ca us discovering ways circumvent limitations recognize class criminals juvenile taken calling , consider irrelevant true meaning word mafia calls nobody pays fact attention
wcs anchor ho att com \( bill stewart 1 908 949 0705 \) subject tapped , code good organization 's apprentice cleaning services reply amanda intercon com 's message mon , 19 apr 1993 11 18 47 0500 nntp posting host rainier ho att com lines 28 example , n't cordless phone clipper , would local men blue really want listen talk friends order pizza , i'm worse , n't worry local kids neighbors tend agree sigh , buy des encrypted cellular phone \? much cost \? course , n't government cellular phone service , probably would available reconcile administrations self proclaimed purpose providing law enforcement access encrypted data without making clipper system crypto available u \? second fourth amendments come mind second amendment especially apt , given itar definitions crypto equipment munitions , gun control people 's increasing ability define things assault weapons make illegal triple des obviously used assault phones , cripple legal , triple cripple may fall gray area illegally upgrading assault phone pray peace bill bill stewart 1 908 949 0705 wcs anchor att com bell labs 4m312 holmdel nj , i'm new jersey , work cyberspace white house commect line 1 202 456 1111 fax 1 202 456 2461
holland cs colostate edu \( douglas craig holland \) subject text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption distribution na nntp posting host beethoven cs colostate edu organization colorado state university , computer science department lines 17 article 1993apr19 afterlife ncsc mil rlward1 afterlife ncsc mil \( robert ward \) writes article bontchev 734981805 fbihh bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de writes since us constitutions guarantees right every american bear arms , every american entitled , matter read applicable part constitution interpreted context \? , please posting misinterpretation refers right people organize militia , individuals carry handguns , grenades , assault rifles read constitution second amendment says right bear arms shall infringed , well regulated militia may easily formed interpretation second shows qualifications right keep bear arms want , e mail way , gun talk belongs talk politics guns doug holland
subject tapped , code good rubin dsg4 dse beckman com \( arthur rubin \) distribution na organization beckman instruments , inc nntp posting host dsg4 dse beckman com lines 60 netcom com strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes article bu edu uni acs bu edu \( shaen bernhardt \) writes wish could agree ask would private sector entity wish buy crypto system known least partially compromised \? \( key escrows instance \) would private sector entity wish buy crypto system properly evaluated \? \( e algorythm publically released \) answer seems obvious , would n't hardware compromised des example \( triple des better one \) follows opinion asserted truth flames , please comes background 20 years senior corporate staff executive two fortune 50 companies wonder american businesses going tubes ! 'd happy use crypto system supplied nsa business , told secure des , particular resistant attempts japanese , french , competitive companies governments break \( 's nist , nsa nsa supposed anything \) n't say said better commercial grade encryptions , one , would n't trust , unless release algorithm investigation 'd happy even escrowed keys , provided happy bona fides escrow agencies \( federal reserve would certainly satisfy , would something set one big 8 accounting firms \) maybe aclu eff \( would non profit , big 8 would \) 'd trust nsa president stated trap doors 'd even happier committee independent experts examined thing seal secrecy reported back secure would n't trust nsa think would trust president , i'm certain would told 'd trust something nsa long 'd trust something swiss anybody japanese 's problem may seem surprising , suggest corporations would feel way many \( pick one \) corporations attitude nsa part government support government , one famous ceo put one day want emphasize speaking beckman instruments point however , international company , would like think customers come first , ahead government 's whims arthur l rubin rubin dsg4 dse beckman com \( work \) beckman instruments brea 216 5888 mcimail com 70707 453 compuserve com arthur pnet01 cts com \( personal \) opinions , represent employer
geoff ficus cs ucla edu \( geoffrey kuenning \) subject tapped , code good nntp posting host cs ucla edu organization ucla , computer science department distribution na lines 18 article 2073 rwing uucp pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) writes fishing expeditions without target 's knowlege n't give right safe non negotiable , clinton co know \( probably quietly developed thing , figuring get far , ram \) always amazes quick people blame whatever administration current things could n't possibly initiated chip take years develop , yet already 're claiming clinton administration us bullshit bush administration career gestapo responsible horror , presented new presidency fait accompli n't excuse clinton gore criticism stupid go , let 's lay body proper door start geoff kuenning geoff cs ucla edu geoff com
jhart agora rain com \( jim hart \) subject screw people , crypto hard core hackers spooks summary \( need privacy chips phones , computer bound station \) article agora organization open communications forum lines 48 since wiretap chip distributed internationally , allowing u government spy foreign governments , companies people well wiretap domestic citizens , world wide issue please put distribution world line thank ygoland wright seas ucla edu \( jester \) writes however assuming still encrypt things please , cares clipper chip \? n't care people lied , fooled believing chip gives privacy fact allows wiretaps \? n't give shit anybody 's privacy except \? \( even smart know 're talking somebody wiretap chip phone instead privacy chip private keys \? \) attitude everyone else instead worrying clipper chip , simply connect computer feed voice single , process , encrypt , transmit phone guy hand reverse simply \? everyone attitude \? people attitude hard core computer hackers , never make phone calls away computer , apparently never call anybody except another computer hacker , perhaps another spook \( u classified agents refuse use system , oblivious civilian get dubious privilege \) spooks hard core hackers need privacy , huh \? need alternative nsa bugged telephones , 're talking inexpensive telephones , including hand sized , need strong crypto , real privacy make shift computer hacker rigs require living computer talk privately phone dumb stunt n't anything anybody 's privacy real world need true privacy chip example , real time voice encryption rsa , put silicon compiler spit asic put chip market de facto standard international business , diplomats , private communications u bans , make somewhere else import japanese , german , dutch , taiwanese , korean , etc electronics companies n't want nsa spying u workers lose jobs government fascist stupidity jhart agora rain com
rdippold qualcomm com \( ron asbestos dippold \) subject tapped , code good originator rdippold qualcom qualcomm com nntp posting host qualcom qualcomm com organization qualcomm , inc , san diego , ca distribution na lines 29 geoff ficus cs ucla edu \( geoffrey kuenning \) writes bullshit bush administration career gestapo responsible horror , presented new presidency fait accompli n't excuse clinton gore criticism stupid go , let 's lay body proper door start final stages denial hardly imagine result would clinton administration actually supported plan , instead merely 've obviously n't believe chip originated clinton administration either , clinton administration embraced brought fruition major parties consider excellent reasons limiting freedoms violating privacy , even seem feel 're favor really surprising anyone means 've willfully ignoring quite bit previous evidence 's one political party \( calling anarchists party \) considers freedom privacy goals worthy 're voting big two , 're supporting reduction rights \( given goals histories \) , regardless whether personally support reduction paint clinton gore tools really stretching things kill man costs nothing polite churchill
cwis unomaha edu \( tim russell \) subject tapped , code good organization university nebraska omaha distribution na lines 18 geoff ficus cs ucla edu \( geoffrey kuenning \) writes always amazes quick people blame whatever administration current things could n't possibly initiated chip take years develop , yet already 're claiming clinton administration us kidding recent post saw alt privacy clipper \( hope anyone interested topic ends \) states clipper development four years , however , little po 'd clinton put name , even allowed get door , matter 's already heard , hope 'll take time voice extreme displeasure well tim russell omaha , ne unomaha edu
mccoy ccwf cc utexas edu \( jim mccoy \) subject fifth amendment passwords reply mccoy ccwf cc utexas edu \( jim mccoy \) organization university texas austin lines 53 nntp posting host tramp cc utexas edu originator mccoy tramp cc utexas edu article 1993apr19 qualcomm com , karn unix ka9q ampr org \( phil karn \) writes article 1993apr18 colnet cmhnet org , res colnet cmhnet org \( rob stampfli \) writes sadly , suspects compelled give handwriting voice exemplars , take blood dna tests sure mike correct point also pretty sure administering truth serum would ruled violation right incriminate , salient difference \? find salient difference number 5th amendment related supreme court opinions court limits 5th amendment protections call testimonial evidence , opposed physical evidence question slight variation previously mentioned examples perhaps people could give pointers \( couple years since con law class college hope missing something obvious \) basic scenario set bbs uses public key encryption encryption files disk general setup designed users connect send private key encrypted using system public key user 's public private used wrap one time session keys used encrypting files disk result even reveal system private key impossible anyone gain access files stored machine possible someone use revealed system private key entice users revealing thier personal private keys authentication sequence questions fact system private key provide information useful search give protection far coerced reveal key \? \( doubt \) seems providing system private key mean assisting \( users would send thier key anyway something would otherwise \) hook used \? would user private key require wiretap approval \? answers general subject would appreciated jim jim mccoy ut unix sysadmin tiger team mccoy ccwf cc utexas edu include disclaimer h j mccoy nwu edu pgp key available via finger upon request
langley dirac scri fsu edu \( randolph langley \) subject text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption distribution na organization fsu supercomputer computations research institute lines 8 reply clipper csrc ncsl nist gov 's message 16 apr 93 15 19 06 gmt gee , guess also repository house keys , car keys , safety deposit keys , \(
uni acs bu edu \( shaen bernhardt \) subject clipper nay sayers sound like distribution na organization boston university , boston , , usa lines 60 article dns1 nmsu edu amolitor moink nmsu edu \( andrew molitor \) writes following available ftp archive somewhere , insert comments liberally throughout demonic memo big white house announcement screw thread standards announce american national standards institute \( whatever \) given authority define standard dimensions screw threads look ! clearly first step toward outlawing screw thread specifications madness n't fought , tooth nail , every step way , 'll crime use screw threads fearless leaders graciously define us sarcastic text deleted , value judgement implied screw , bill clinton ! thugs ! amolitor nmsu edu finger personal screw thread pitch , screw threads see screw thread servers must freed ! first going complain analogy completely irrelevant remembered something remember move get u metric system years ago \? far know supposed government sold better people , easier tune rest world decided good , plan released , soon became government bunch 'o' think , change railroad track widths , signs , screws , abolish old regime cost millions dollars point well taken think nothing worry , could care less designs cryptography , designs screws system measurement use sit back , 's right , relax , 'll take care needs mr molitor uni acs bu edu public keys finger request public key archives pgp public keys pgp iastate edu sovereignty sign brutal past fight clinton 's wiretap chip ! df610670f2467b99 97de2b5c3749148c crypto crime ! ask !
artmel well sf ca us \( arthur melnick \) subject questions regarding big brother \( clipper \) summary thoughts questions regarding clipper keywords clipper nntp posting host well sf ca us organization whole earth 'lectronic link , sausalito , ca lines 23 previous postings hellman , bellovin , reported big brother \( clipper \) chip encrypt plaintext 64 bit blocks done des users key k derived rsa , hellman , etc used encrypt plaintext used form three part message three part message consists e k , k encrypted key , chip serial number three part message encrypted still another key question message \? example , say dealing encrypted digitized voice application speech waveform sampled digitized number samples grouped 64 bit block block encrypted transmitted non secure communications link three part message \? something appended 64 bit block \? header sent beginning session \? header sent beginning session , insure equipment manufacturer using chip \? anyone manufacture products using chip \? facility clearance required manufacture \? ideas \?
pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) subject secret algorithm clipper chip crypto key escrow keywords encryption , wiretap , clipper , key escrow , mykotronx article rwing organization totally unorganized lines 66 article strnlghtc5pucl 6kp netcom com strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes article apr18 204843 50316 yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu \( douglas craig holland \) writes let ask would trust richard nixon crypto keys \? would n't take mean president nixon , private citizen nixon sure nothing i'm would slightest interest president nixon sure n't miss implication could another richard nixon type president future \( perhaps distant future , acutally \) mind , take also would object gov coming decision \( proposal like clinton cripple decision , proposal \) us start placing video cameras sound every room house , could activated without knowlege would well concealed would n't know location , prevent covering lens opening , nothing 're would slightest interest government official , right \? , surely object proposal best , principle pretty close ability eavesdrop activity little effort , without knowlege , protected entirely government safeguards still draw curtains , still privacy everyone else \( except big brother \) ! ! need protection drug dealers terrorists criminals \( like \) n't really right unbreakable privacy anyway , sort press release clinton cripple decision puts find curious use word unbreakable term really difficult break without proper authorization \( government certainly disposal , right \? would n't want able break illegally , would \? \) , people clinton , mind , give us one good reason algorithm secret algorithm , unless encryption scheme either joke , contains features like 'master key' back door unauthorized eavesdropping \? really even moderately secure , government really meant require proper court order keys escrow accounts able decipher traffic , need keep algorithm secret \? seems hear rather often encryption scheme requires algorithm remain secret effective , worthwhile scheme idle talk , administration everyone \? great skepticism , many doubts administrations intentions wait ! ! n't told next gem administration mind e mail security press release say part comprehensive thing data security us citizens perhaps would better term somehow seem appropriate implies free people , better fits population serve pleasure rulers one thing certain government longer regards citizens bosses anymore , way around pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc 1 207 \( pat myrto \) seattle , wa else fails , try ! uunet ! pilchuck ! rwing ! pat wisdom two things infinite universe human stupidity , sure former albert einstien
uri watson ibm com \( uri \) subject key registering bodies distribution usa reply uri watson ibm com disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host watson ibm com organization ibm j watson research center lines 18 article dockmaster ncsc mil , grant dockmaster ncsc mil \( lynn r grant \) writes trust nsa registrar clipper chip key halves , would trust mitre either would n't trust mitre another reason remember 's egg \? great security , eh \? nsa well , list known , make wonder many unknown still \? \( \) \( \( regards , uri uri watson ibm com ! angmar ! uri disclaimer
pla sktb demon co uk \( paul l allen \) subject secret algorithm clipper chip crypto key escrow reply pla sktb demon co uk organization chaos lines 76 x newsreader archimedes begin pgp signed message article pmetzger snark shearson com pmetzger snark shearson com \( perry e metzger \) writes article news intercon com amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) writes amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) jhesse netcom com \( john hesse \) writes oh great wonderful news nobody listen except feds hey , 's better status quo far less worried feds tapping phone high school scanner get kicks eavesdropping cellular cordless phone calls i'm political dissident i'm scared shitless feds listening calls opinions sort would get disappeared slightly less free society knows sort society five ten years \? friends phones tapped none theoretical better status quo , well , first , get companies like cylink today work well addition , number groups working building software turn pc privacy enhanced phone right working overdrive mode yes , 'd rather see crypto restrictions lifted , least improvement certain applications crypto restrictions yet use anything want right point maintain right point seem missed covered uk cellphone scrambling system discussed incidentally , mp responded questions issue , appears uk countries get secure a5 encryption , countries get existing mobile equipment drop clear mode used systems , newer equipment use a5 clear depending capabilities base station cops feds need able get hold private key listen cellular conversations encryption end end , cellphone base station way cellular users fixed installations talk cellular cellular calls , transmission decrypted base station , passed another base station encrypted cops feds listen call provided get warrant tap cellular provider 's equipment reason wanting system listen without obtain warrant , maybe clipper system secure , really need warrant get key escrow listen using scanner \( see n't go route anyway \) doubts , even true key never need warrant tap particular phone whenever want , judge , appears n't drug dealer , naturally 'll stop listening in' every reason scared shitless take look records mccarthy , hoover \( j edgar , cleaner though sucking \) nixon paul begin pgp signature version 2 2 end pgp signature
ameline vnet ibm com \( ian ameline \) subject screw people , crypto hard core hackers spooks organization c set 2 development , ibm canada lab disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , ibm lines 33 suspect clipper thing could backfire gov big hurry expect products using chips socket rather soldering , since keys handed escrow agencies , chip much garbage , need replaced expect someone come along pin compatible chip uses secure encryption possibly even disguised 's possible tell clipper chip try use 2 backdoor keys manufacture chip , part marketing strategy , would try subvert one escrow agencies either industrial espionage publicize fact \( best connected activities would likely legal \) publicly discrediting escrow agencies would go quite far towards creating market secure alternative also believe someone reverse engineer clipper chip , knowlege algorithm likely fairly widespread back doors weaknesses would discredit scheme , help grow market demand secure alternative believe company provides alternative make friends le community , lots money also believe government 's best make plug replacements illegal expect see success limiting availability alternatives seen limiting availability certain illicit drugs ie little none regards , ian ameline \( course nothing employer , necessarily advocate things described believe events likely take place \)
caronni nessie cs id ethz ch \( germano caronni \) subject fifth amendment passwords organization swiss federal institute technology \( eth \) , zurich , ch lines 28 article geraldo cc utexas edu mccoy ccwf cc utexas edu \( jim mccoy \) writes set bbs uses public key encryption encryption files disk general setup designed users connect send private key encrypted using system public key user 's public private used wrap one time session keys used encrypting files disk result even reveal system private key impossible anyone gain access files stored machine possible someone use revealed system private key entice users revealing thier personal private keys authentication sequence answers general subject would appreciated question provider public bbs service n't bound law gurantee intelligble access data users bbs , police comes sufficent authorisation \? guessed would basic condition systems \( run bbs time ago , switzerland \) friendly greetings , germano caronni instruments register things 're designed register space still contains infinite unknowns pgp key id 341027 germano caronni caronni nessie cs id ethz ch fd560ccf586f3da747ea3c94dd01720f
rab well sf ca us \( bob bickford \) subject technical details nntp posting host well sf ca us organization whole earth 'lectronic link lines 15 another objection occurred comment supposedly would one decode box , operated fbi flat ridiculous , n't believe even fact build one \( two small number \) , wo n't stop others building one make work like two clipper chip phones , one listening side recorded conversation 'll another look specs posted far , offhand n't see anything would preclude sort thing robert bickford rab well sf ca us treasurer newsletter editor , lib party marin county \( ca \) n't blame voted libertarian member , ca state central committee
organization university illinois chicago , academic computer center u23590 uicvm uic edu subject cripple chip lines 19 telco clipper key telco intended partner 's key , using one whenever call , message gets decrypted key exchange know 's stupid system , feds , 'd great point take crypto market , btw clinton want people sort crypto \( like busch \) needs support technology initiative garbage 's pushing \( industrial policy stuff \) computer hip designed gov't thing 's going thing \( literal \) billions dollars took government agency design \? watkins earth eecs uic edu
ksr com \( john f woods \) subject tapped , code good distribution na organization kendall square research corp lines 20 johnson trwacs fp trw com \( steve johnson \) writes tim may , whose sig block may get busted new regime remark heard day beginning take increasingly frightening significance comment made parts world democrats note big would known socialists parts world , european socialists would known fascist capitalist pigs get head labels think carefully according eff announcement thing , nsa developing turkey four years manufacturing contract let 14 months ago anyone believes fact clinton 's name white house announcement means bush republican staunch supporter personal privacy fool topic , political finger pointing talk 've got point fingers , remember scheme started secret policeman president
jebright magnus acs ohio state edu \( james r ebright \) subject wh proposal police point view nntp posting host bottom magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 34 article pmetzger snark shearson com pmetzger lehman com writes article 704 netcom com strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes extensive discussion eff forum , example , taps used develop information could lead admissible evidence might put stop things , must time time simple fishing expeditions far likely , things continue done matter assurances given key escrow likely going prove joke feel like winston churchill 1941 \( , privacy clipper , extent key escrow legitimate , stop abuse wiretaps local cops , company cops , angry husbands wives , etc going hard keystone cops , gamble cops , etc bypass even product flawed admit , hard pressed find anything else good say except , actually takes , someone certainly come real crypto chip \( pin compatable ! \) buy unless , course , big brother makes illegal real crypto 'cause good honest law abiding citizens happy let government listen every word \? say \? crook president richard nixon information farming addr phone finger ohio state university jebright magnus acs ohio state edu \( \( 0 0 \) \) jim ebright e mail jre osu edu \( \)
bear kestrel fsl noaa gov \( bear giles \) subject fifth amendment passwords organization forecast systems labs , noaa , boulder , co usa lines 29 article 1993apr20 000359 20098 bernina ethz ch caronni nessie cs id ethz ch \( germano caronni \) writes question provider public bbs service n't bound law gurantee intelligble access data users bbs , police comes sufficent authorisation \? guessed would basic condition systems \( run bbs time ago , switzerland \) sounds like old episode joe went apartment prime suspect nobody answered door , landlord gave us permission search apartment perhaps worked california 60 's , understand law landlords authority grant permission search space rented third party , provided lease default , etc \( i'm even sure provide master key , shown search warrant , since subject search supposed notified \) point question becomes user rent disk space encrypted file occupies \? , fall body case law applies apartments , storage , etc \( whether court would recognize fact \) \( e , compensation exchanged \) , n't know would treated n't seem non cyberspace equivalent bear giles bear fsl noaa gov
bear kestrel fsl noaa gov \( bear giles \) subject clipper algorithm secret organization forecast systems labs , noaa , boulder , co usa lines 25 article panix com dfl panix com \( danny o'bedlam \) writes algorithm classified military contract \( similar government equivalent military \) let proprietary design feds say nsa developed patent \? patent publicly available \? betting classified unless major change law , 's beast classified patent patents exist encourage communications develop state art \( 17 year lock nuisance , historically pretty trivial 's industry doubles performance every three years \( 18 months , hardware \) 17 years eternity \) thing applies civilian development ca n't patent something declare trade secret however , \( \) mark software \( including proprietary code \) unpublished copyright ever get exposed still legal protection \( post berne n't required , since everything born copyrighted takes people learn new rules \) bear giles bear fsl noaa gov
johng ecs comm mot com \( john gilbert \) subject clipper chip bush organization motorola , land mobile products sector distribution na keywords big bubba watching ! nntp posting host 145 1 147 59 lines 10 article wcs rainier att com wcs anchor ho att com \( bill stewart 1 908 949 0705 \) writes version defend free speech reject republicans followed speech control must works time bush administration must working quite clinton simply took credit \( blame , depending look \) john gilbert johng ecs comm mot com
denning guvax acc georgetown edu subject clipper chip technical summary distribution world organization georgetown university lines 139 following document summarizes clipper chip , used , programming chip coupled key generation escrow process , law enforcement decrypts communications since speculation news group involvement project , 'd like add way involved found fbi briefed thursday evening , april 15 since spent considerable time talking nsa fbi learn , attended nist briefing department commerce april 16 document result effort dorothy denning clipper chip technical summary dorothy denning april 19 , 1993 introduction april 16 , president announced new initiative bring together federal government industry voluntary program provide secure communications meeting legitimate needs law enforcement heart plan new tamper proof encryption chip called clipper chip together split key approach escrowing keys two escrow agencies used , key parts needed reconstruct key chip structure clipper chip contains classified 64 bit block encryption algorithm called skipjack algorithm uses 80 bit keys \( compared 56 des \) 32 rounds scrambling \( compared 16 des \) supports 4 des modes operation throughput 16 mbits second chip includes following components skipjack encryption algorithm f , 80 bit family key common chips n , 30 bit serial number u , 80 bit secret key unlocks messages encrypted chip encrypting chip see chip used , imagine embedded telephone security device \( \) suppose call someone device pushing button start secure conversation , security device negotiate session key k device end \( general , method key exchange used \) key k message stream \( e , digitized voice \) fed clipper chip produce two values e k , encrypted message stream , e e k u n f , law enforcement block law enforcement block thus contains session key k encrypted unit key u concatenated serial number n , encrypted family key f chip programming escrow clipper chips programmed inside scif \( secure computer information facility \) , essentially vault scif contains laptop computer equipment program chips 300 chips programmed single session scif located beginning session , trusted agent two key escrow agencies enters vault agent 1 enters 80 bit value s1 laptop agent 2 enters 80 bit value s2 values serve seeds generate keys sequence serial numbers generate unit key serial number n , 30 bit value n first padded fixed 34 bit block produce 64 bit block n1 s1 s2 used keys triple encrypt n1 , producing 64 bit block r1 r1 e e n1 s1 s2 s1 similarly , n padded two 34 bit blocks produce n2 n3 , two additional 64 bit blocks r2 r3 computed r2 e e n2 s1 s2 s1 r3 e e n3 s1 s2 s1 r1 , r2 , r3 concatenated together , giving 192 bits first 80 bits assigned u1 second 80 bits u2 rest discarded unit key u xor u1 u2 u1 u2 key parts separately escrowed two escrow agencies sequence values u1 , u2 , u generated , written onto three separate floppy disks first disk contains file serial number contains corresponding key part u1 second disk similar contains u2 values third disk contains unit keys u agent 1 takes first disk agent 2 takes second disk third disk used program chips chips programmed , information discarded vault agents leave laptop may destroyed additional assurance information left behind protocol may changed slightly four people room instead two first two would provide seeds s1 s2 , second two \( escrow agents \) would take disks back escrow agencies escrow agencies yet determined , nsa , cia , fbi , law enforcement agency one may independent government law enforcement use law enforcement authorized tap encrypted line , first take warrant service provider order get access communications line let us assume tap place determined line encrypted clipper first decrypt law enforcement block family key f gives e k u n take warrant identifying chip serial number n key escrow agents get back u1 u2 u1 u2 xored together produce unit key u , e k u decrypted get session key k finally message stream decrypted accomplished special black box decoder operated fbi acknowledgment distribution notice information based information provided nsa , nist , fbi permission distribute document granted
violet ccit arizona edu \( jr , j \) subject clipper ranting libertarians keywords clipper clinton rant rave libertarians distribution usa , local organization university arizona lines 26 nntp posting host violet ccit arizona edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 would think could reduce defense using non clipper based encryption technologies defending freedom expression \( ie , free speech \) right express whatever want whatever form little heart desires long impinge rights others encrypted text sound video another form expression particular text sound video like digitized sound another means expression sound streams instead continuous waveforms also , n't government encryption standards decided upon independent standards \( apologies acronym \) one note well worked iso metric system , sae , etc independent entities people industries particular area far qualified set standards one government agency consider example ascii character set would looked like decided government hope helps folks formulate defenses i'm still working mine hope faxing congressmen soon j ccit arizona edu finger info pgp public key
kadie eff org \( carl kadie \) subject would clipper make good cover encryption method \? originator kadie eff org nntp posting host eff org organization electronic frontier foundation lines 26 clipper might good way cover use another layer encryption currently , send encrypted message , opponent usually tell 1 \) using encryption 2 \) encryption method using information usually clear clipper , opponents know sending clipper text , wo n't know clipper text encoded opponents get clipper keys know message double encrypted kind like safety deposit box containing lock box , n't think replacements clipper , also think front ends carl carl kadie represent eff kadie eff org , kadie cs uiuc edu
pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) subject text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption distribution na organization totally unorganized lines 76 article gap caltech edu hal cco caltech edu \( hal finney \) writes brad clarinet com \( brad templeton \) writes strategy business one rather legal one pushing get standard place , secret standard , get standard drive competitors market legal sell better , encryption n't registered keys , difficult , thus plan phone companies brad 's analysis correct , may offer explanation encryption algorithm kept secret prevent competitors coming clipper compatible phones lack government installed back door strategy brad describes work long way get compatible phones ones government chips \( would nice , point view personal privacy , brad turns right long people still power provide encryption place addition clipper , privacy still possible wording several passages announcement makes doubt whether turn true \) even brad says turns accurate , bet administration made clear vendors would much best interests institute voluntary policy refusing sell anything clinton cripple equipped equipment anyone authorized government agencies law enforcement , individuals corporations determined administration valid need case case basis effective system note much like language used many gun control bills laws administration pushing , otherwise supporting logic actual rationale \( opposed excuses get fed media \) cases , items technology question different think accident comes philosophy government rules controls people , people controlling government , unconnected citizens sophisticated enough know best , government must tell people need need know best idea defend government eavesdropping unlawful attack totally unacceptable people outlook hal finney combine pushing national identity cards encode anything please \( internal passport \) guise state people 's health care system , \( certain \) yet come , one sees extremely ominous trend 1984 ten years late still turning amazingly accurate prophecy unless lot people wake , hurry one always every red warning light bell danger flag come government seeks set apart regard rights , etc unconnected citizen \( saying instead \? \) average person good , secure system data security , dependent nebulous maintaining security \? average person able defend agency gone rogue \? 0i sure feds could break data really wanted \( would take work \) , using logic , one allowed good safe , unless duplicate key \( \) combination submitted government \? n't really see difference , philosophically encrypted data sure wo n't , high tech tools tape recorder pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc 1 207 \( pat myrto \) seattle , wa else fails , try ! uunet ! pilchuck ! rwing ! pat wisdom two things infinite universe human stupidity , sure former albert einstien
marc vanheyningen mvanheyn cs indiana edu subject technical details organization computer science dept , indiana university lines 43 encrypted k , k encrypted unit key uk , serial number unit added produce three part message encrypted system key sk producing e e k , e k uk , serial number sk understanding e k encrypted sk \( called family key \) decrypt key corresponding sk held law enforcement anyone first hand knowledge \? also check , 7am sunday want wait ok , fact two distinct components transmitted chip real message encrypted conventional key , serial number encrypted conventional key encrypted \( imho kind bogus , whole concept one key millions people use ca n't changed n't seem reasonable \) family key suppose analyze output chip i'm able determine bits encrypted packet contains serial number session key suppose also design simple algorithm based information takes data containing encrypted session key bit \( several \) 's sent line mind , i'm sure nsa thought along dozen attacks ca n't imagine , system probably somehow designed manipulation information cause compliant receiving chip somehow fail decrypt successfully \? two parties agree advance kind consistent bit scheme , decryption chip sees restored proper bitstream eavesdropper gets e k uk packet 's wrong \? suppose could easily defeated chip sends information many times slightly different ways , making effectively impossible certain know information sent marc vanheyningen mvanheyn cs indiana edu mime ripem accepted theory predicts different outcomes depending whether use discrete mathematics continuous mathematics , 've got wrong theory bruce maclennan
pmetzger snark shearson com \( perry e metzger \) subject technical details organization partnership america free drug lines 15 srt duke cs duke edu \( stephen r tate \) writes , i'm one people government every turn , taking someone 's word s1 s2 pairs kept around pushing i'm willing believe little bit far even somehow address issue unlikely back door might even intentionally visible ones n't visible perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire , laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
pmetzger snark shearson com \( perry e metzger \) subject escrow database organization partnership america free drug lines 77 disturbing thought , longer live days big filing live electronic age asked , big could escrow database get \? hard might steal whole thing , particularly nsa official operating tacit permission escrow houses \? \( pretend happen , thats naive \) well , lets see ten bytes escrow half lets ten bytes serial number fact , believe serial number smaller , order magnitude calculation assume 250 10 6 population , person key get five gigabytes two escrow databases fits conveniently single valuable exabyte tape get easier time , cares already hold clipper keys country pocket two 8mm tapes , think safeguards wo n't put whole database one disk , prehaps maybe throw stumbling blocks way changes nothing keys needed every day hundreds thousands law enforcement types , convenience dictate system permit quick electronic retrieval point , without agencies , exabyte tapes going get cut dorothy denning david sternlight doubtless claim ca n't happen know ca n't prayer , word instance realism two exabyte tapes pocket , would hold keys every person 's conversations country hands yeah , need master key two thats ten bytes information stored awful lot places come think , even nsa getting copy database n't threat unlike political views , consider foreign intelligence services know , ones david sternlight wants protect us evil industrial espionage french apparently big spying operation friendly countries get industrial secrets , n't completely irrational \( although companies could n't use cryptosystems without back doors left unexplained point threat \) presumably , foreign intelligence services get nsa agencies proof example happened many times presumably , someday get hands fraction keys ca n't avoid sort thing n't pretend one unauthorized ever get hands escrow databases crypto types taught something important beginning intro cryptography security must depend easily changed key pick run system , secret escrow databases n't sorts secrets teachers told us , sort big secrets would lump category imagine trying replace 100 million clipper chips cannot believe nsa whomever thats n't realize already smart many made bones real world suspect know precisely giving us appearance safety continue spite growth strong cryptography suspect realize ca n't put things forever , try delay things long possible knows maybe even higher ups , inevitable bureaucratic types rise organization , really believe scheme might give people security , even subordinates fort meade hands foolishness perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire , laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
pmetzger snark shearson com \( perry e metzger \) subject text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption organization partnership america free drug distribution na lines 104 rlward1 afterlife ncsc mil \( robert ward \) writes article bontchev 734981805 fbihh bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de writes since us constitutions guarantees right every american bear arms , every american entitled , matter read applicable part constitution interpreted context \? , please posting misinterpretation refers right people organize militia , individuals carry handguns , grenades , assault rifles supreme court seems disagree stated people term art refering individual right , explicitly mentioned second amendment example quote 'the people' seems term art employed select parts constitution preamble declares constitution ordained , established 'the people u ' second amendment protects right people keep bear arms supreme court u , u v \( 1990 \) furthermore , miller decision , permitted prosecution possession sawed shotgun defense presented testimony therefore accepted argument government weapons military value held amendment protected individual right possess military weapons unfortunately , second amendment case successfully gotten court fifty years however , change interpretation furthermore , appears others disagree well , vis conclusion thus inescapable history , concept , wording second amendment constitution united states , well interpretation every major commentator court first half century , indicates protected individual right private citizen carry firearms peaceful manner report subcommittee constitution committee judiciary , united states senate , 97th congress , second session \( february 1982 \) might rightfully ask well , first bit militias mean \? well , militia historical context basically means whole adult males country \( indeed , u code still defines militia armed men age 17 \) militia comprised males physically capable acting concert common defense men expected appear bearing arms supplied kind common use time supreme court united states , u v miller \( 1939 \) reason phrase explain rationale behind amendment , depending people bear arms defense country , military power could ever occur would permit tyranny short , government would remain fear people , rather way around free man shall ever use arms strongest reason people retain right keep bear arms , last resort , protect tyranny government thomas jefferson , proposal virginia constitution , june 1776 1 thomas jefferson papers , 334 \( c j boyd , ed , 1950 \) country preserve liberties , rulers warned time time people preserve spirit resistance \? let take arms tree liberty must refreshed time time , blood patriots tyrants thomas jefferson \( letter william smith , , jefferson , democracy 20 , , ed , 1939 \) standing army rule , people must disarmed almost every kingdom europe supreme power america cannot enforce unjust laws sword whole body people armed , constitute force superior bands regular troops , pretense , raised united states noah webster , examination leading principles federal constitution \( \) , pamphlets constitution united states \( p ford , 1888 \) may disagree second amendment , wish repealed , please pretend n't n't mean says might argue conditions changed longer present , ca n't imagine away could fill book detailed argumentation many already however , none anything cryptography lets get insist discussing , please talk politics guns , people gladly discuss matter perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire , laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
! joe austin tx us \( joe \) subject fighting clipper initiative organization press human systems performance group , austin , tx x newsreader rusnews v1 01 lines 17 steve b access digex com \( steve brinich \) writes flaming libertarian paranoid extremist \( \) , loss specific objections n't sound frighteningly technical idea cripple chip standard us manufacturers would result saying yet another high tech market n't technical , n't least difficult understand , plays concern lots people worried already could expand \? feeling 're right , n't quite understand could salesman going press austin , texas ! door door laurie anderson human systems performance group
rdippold qualcomm com \( ron asbestos dippold \) subject clipper chip bush originator rdippold qualcom qualcomm com keywords big bubba watching ! nntp posting host qualcom qualcomm com organization qualcomm , inc , san diego , ca distribution na lines 13 johng ecs comm mot com \( john gilbert \) writes must works time bush administration must working quite clinton simply took credit \( blame , depending look \) initiative actual implementation clinton innocent n't slap name without consulting exactly extensive history individual rights advocacy people assuming really nothing \? went back pledge cut espionage budget , asking money even bush wanted 've left body science science
tcmay netcom com \( timothy c may \) subject tapped , code good organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 distribution na lines 25 dave \( chinet chi il us \) wrote article 1qpg8finn982 dns1 nmsu edu amolitor nmsu edu \( andrew molitor \) writes pick mr may particular , course , n't kind domino theory \? one little country falls , neighbor surely follow , know , 're mining salt siberia turning captain crunch secret decoder rings , wrongness attempt correct \( vietnam , et al \) , domino theory n't disproved ironically , domino theory fact reasonable metaphor collapse communism , poland hungary border summer '89 fall wall later year ultimate collapse ussr tim may timothy c may crypto anarchy encryption , digital money , tcmay netcom com anonymous networks , digital pseudonyms , zero 408 688 5409 knowledge , reputations , information markets , w e aptos , ca black markets , collapse governments higher power 2 756839 public key pgp mailsafe available
wimsey bc ca \( mark c henderson \) subject source random bits unix workstation organization wimsey information services lines 42 article msuinfo cl msu edu mrr scss3 cl msu edu \( mark riordan \) writes sources statistics filesystems \( easily quickly obtained \) output system call also exec finger one favorite heavily used systems , though take several seconds cf source code ripem ripem msu edu mark r alternatives include output , , friends various flags , even better crash e g rs 6000 \( aix 3 2 \) get lots relatively data crash \( output following script usually gives 600k goo moderately busy system \) ! bin sh crash ! proc tty stack pcb socket inode file mst buffer le ! mark henderson wimsey bc ca ripem key available key server finger e mail
ngorelic speclab cr usgs gov cr usgs gov \( noel \) subject white house public encryption management fact sheet originator news essex ecn uoknor edu reply ngorelic speclab cr usgs gov nntp posting host essex ecn uoknor edu organization , denver x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 24 alan barrett \( barrett lucy ee und ac za \) wrote article c5lgaz 250 dove nist gov , clipper csrc ncsl nist gov \( clipper chip announcement \) writes making decision , intend prevent private sector developing , government approving , microcircuits algorithms equally effective assuring privacy secure key escrow system making decision , intend prevent private sector developing , except government 's approval , microcircuits algorithms effective assuring privacy n't mean government might approve something use government agencies sound form threat joe user ca n't develop use encryption algorithm want sing \? yeah got dogs ngorelic speclab cr usgs gov pretty damn good time life pain anyone tells different trying sell something
pmetzger snark shearson com \( perry e metzger \) subject need clipper cheap security \? organization partnership america free drug lines 53 amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) writes answer seems obvious , would n't hardware compromised des example \( triple des better one \) , buy des encrypted cellular phone \? much cost \? personally , cylink stuff budget personal use \) clipper chip cheap crypto masses , obviously one could thing without building back doors indeed , even without special engineering , construct good system right standard codec chip , chip , des chip , v32bis integrated modem module , small processor glue work , need secure phone dump one fast processor integration , could put onto single chip future yes , cheap crypto good n't need government everything clipper chip without needing compromised white house releases stuff saying good gives people privacy , note n't need give us privacy , capability available using commercial hardware right indeed , government everything possible stop , qualcomm would designed strong encryption right cdma cellular phone system pioneering nsa company , cheap encryption systems would everywhere , try every trick book stop , i'm sure cheap secure phones would right n't ones making cheap crypto available ones keeping cheap crypto people 's hands hand clipper chip , getting mess prize traded buy \? get safety foreigners \? read conference papers well anyone else using strong cryptography get safety professional terrorists \? suspect get cryptosystems open market work fine ca n't idiots like guys bombed trade center getting cheaper crypto \? , market would provided deliberately sabotaged someone please tell exactly get social contract exchange giving right strong cryptography \? perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire , laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
tedwards wam umd edu \( priest \) subject would clipper make good cover encryption method \? nntp posting host rac2 wam umd edu organization university maryland , college park lines 11 article 1993apr20 032623 3046 eff org kadie eff org \( carl kadie \) writes clipper might good way cover use another layer encryption true , traditional encryptions schemes , encrypted clipper , vulnerable attacks partially known plaintext \? thomas
barrett lucy ee und ac za \( alan barrett \) subject screw people , crypto hard core hackers spooks organization elec eng , univ natal , durban , africa lines 18 nntp posting host lucy ee und ac za article agora rain com , jhart agora rain com \( jim hart \) writes since wiretap chip distributed internationally , allowing u government spy foreign governments , companies people well wiretap domestic citizens , world wide issue please put distribution world line thank ! distribution keywords case sensitive want distribution world distribution line world capital letters wrong apb alan barrett , dept electronic eng , univ natal , durban , south africa barrett ee und ac za
tcmay netcom com \( timothy c may \) subject escrow database organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 lines 41 perry e metzger \( pmetzger snark shearson com \) wrote disturbing thought good stuff elided n't pretend one unauthorized ever get hands escrow databases secret escrow databases n't sorts secrets teachers told us , sort big secrets would lump category imagine trying replace 100 million clipper chips sounds like great gimmick replacement market every often issue clipper alert announcing key backup tapes missing , drug lords got 'em , whatever owners 1200 trot local key escrow agency buy new chips programmed , clipper supplier , make killing maybe real idea \( anybody know janet reno stock , vlsi technology , \? \) could good opportunity undermine disinformation float rumors key database stolen chips need replacing people , undermines confidence even , kills sales waco massacre big brother wiretap chip , tactic fair tim may timothy c may crypto anarchy encryption , digital money , tcmay netcom com anonymous networks , digital pseudonyms , zero 408 688 5409 knowledge , reputations , information markets , w e aptos , ca black markets , collapse governments higher power 2 756839 public key pgp mailsafe available
bill celestial com \( bill campbell \) subject tapped , code good organization celestial software , mercer island , wa distribution na lines 23 netcom com strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes article apr18 194927 17048 yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu \( douglas craig holland \) writes note measures protect tempest surveillance still classified , far know think inaccurate one buy tempest equipment commercially even macs sure buy tempest approved mac enough money n't reason look type pricing 10 years , tempest rating 1982 would raise price 2 , 495 00 radio shack model iii something around 15 , 000 00 bill internet bill celestial com bill campbell celestial software uucp ! ! camco ! bill east mercer way uunet ! camco ! bill mercer island , wa \( 206 \) 947 speed costs money fast want go \?
jfc athena mit edu \( john f carr \) subject screw people , crypto hard core hackers spooks organization massachusetts institute technology lines 16 nntp posting host achates mit edu article 19930419 305 almaden ibm com ameline vnet ibm com \( ian ameline \) writes also believe someone reverse engineer clipper chip , knowlege algorithm likely fairly widespread chip algorithm classified reverse engineer tell people , likely go jail perhaps foreign governments corporations could help us cracking system outside usa us government could probably stop importation clone hardware , software implementation practical john carr \( jfc athena mit edu \)
gtoal gtoal com \( graham toal \) subject need clipper cheap security \? lines 21 pmetzger snark shearson com \( perry e metzger \) indeed , government everything possible stop , qualcomm would designed strong encryption right cdma cellular phone system pioneering nsa company , cheap encryption systems would everywhere , try every trick book stop , i'm sure cheap secure phones would right uk , 's impossible get approval attach crypto device phone network \( anything plugs bt phone sockets must approved reason crypto devices never \) wondering time ago big market good old fashion acoustic technology build secure phone \) possible mask real voice well enough none mouthpiece \? perhaps well sealed attachment well blocked possible , white noise generator outside real speech \? g
gtoal gtoal com \( graham toal \) subject secret algorithm clipper chip crypto key escrow lines 23 cops feds need able get hold private key listen cellular conversations encryption end end , cellphone base station way cellular users fixed installations talk cellular cellular calls , transmission decrypted base station , passed another base station encrypted cops feds listen call provided get warrant tap cellular provider 's equipment reason wanting system listen without obtain warrant , maybe clipper system secure , really need warrant get key escrow listen using scanner \( see n't go route anyway \) doubts , even true key never need warrant tap particular phone whenever want , judge , appears n't drug dealer , naturally 'll stop listening in' true uk paul , i'm fairly sure 're talking building end end encryption phones chip 's cellular \( though certainly could used way suggest \) g
jhart agora rain com \( jim hart \) subject screw people , crypto hard core hackers spooks organization open communications forum lines 37 since wiretap chip scheduled distributed internationally , allowing u government spy foreign governments , companies people well wiretap domestic citizens , world wide issue thus distribution world ygoland wright seas ucla edu \( jester \) writes however assuming still encrypt things please , cares clipper chip \? hackers care clipper chip \? give shit anybody 's privacy accept \? perhaps even smart always know 're talking somebody wiretap phone \? find call thru computer ideas may reflect attitude ideas , , hackers , n't help anybody real world , n't going anybody much good , including voice phones concerned need alternative nsa bugged telephones , 're talking inexpensive telephones , including hand sized , need strong crypto , real privacy make shift computer hacker rigs require living computer talk privately phone dumb stunt n't anything anybody 's privacy real world need true privacy chip example , real time voice encryption rsa , silicon compile spit asic put chip market de facto standard international business , diplomats , private communications u bans , make somewhere else import japanese , german , dutch , taiwanese , korean , etc electronics companies n't want nsa spying u workers lose jobs government fascist stupidity jhart agora rain com
gumby cygnus com \( v wallace \) subject screw people , crypto hard core hackers spooks organization cygnus support , cambridge , usa lines 11 nntp posting host cygnus com reply jhart agora rain com 's message 19 apr 93 19 57 21 gmt date 19 apr 93 19 57 21 gmt jhart agora rain com \( jim hart \) simply \? everyone attitude \? people attitude hard core computer hackers , never make phone calls away computer 10 everybody anyway solve problem
steve b access digex com \( steve brinich \) subject fighting clipper initiative organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 24 nntp posting host access digex net flaming libertarian paranoid extremist \( \) , loss specific objections n't sound frighteningly technical idea cripple chip standard us manufacturers would result saying yet another high tech market n't technical , n't least difficult understand , plays concern lots people worried already could expand \? simple choice 1 american manufacturers cripple chips secret untested algorithm whose keys held people history untrustworthy behavoir , 2 japanese \( pick obvious example \) manufacturers encryption chips algorithm faced public scrutiny keys control user , would choose \? , american government deny choice american citizens \( probably , glorious success war drugs example \) ca n't much global market
pmetzger snark shearson com \( perry e metzger \) subject fifth amendment passwords reply caronni nessie cs id ethz ch 's message tue , 20 apr 1993 00 03 59 gmt reply pmetzger lehman com organization lehman brothers 1993apr19 qualcomm com geraldo cc utexas edu 1993apr20 000359 20098 bernina ethz ch lines 21 article 1993apr20 000359 20098 bernina ethz ch caronni nessie cs id ethz ch \( germano caronni \) writes question provider public bbs service n't bound law gurantee intelligble access data users bbs , police comes sufficent authorisation \? guessed would basic condition systems \( run bbs time ago , switzerland \) obliged let police search equipment proper court order legal obligation keep data intelligble wish run bbs entirely data encrypted police show cannot read anything , well , thats problem legal restrictions domestic use cryptography united states yet perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire , laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
pmetzger snark shearson com \( perry e metzger \) subject facinating facts 30 bit serial number , possibly fixed s1 s2 reply denning guvax acc georgetown edu 's message 19 apr 93 18 23 27 0400 reply pmetzger lehman com organization lehman brothers lines 102 denning guvax acc georgetown edu \( vidkun abraham quisling \) writes chip includes following components skipjack encryption algorithm f , 80 bit family key common chips n , 30 bit serial number u , 80 bit secret key unlocks messages encrypted chip hmmm thirty bit serial number , told , unit key u derived serial number means one billion possible unit keys generate unit key serial number n , 30 bit value n first padded fixed 34 bit block produce 64 bit block n1 s1 s2 used keys triple encrypt n1 , producing 64 bit block r1 r1 e e n1 s1 s2 s1 similarly , n padded two 34 bit blocks produce n2 n3 , two additional 64 bit blocks r2 r3 computed r2 e e n2 s1 s2 s1 r3 e e n3 s1 s2 s1 r1 , r2 , r3 concatenated together , giving 192 bits first 80 bits assigned u1 second 80 bits u2 rest discarded unit key u xor u1 u2 u1 u2 key parts separately escrowed two escrow agencies hmmm must assume generating unit key u serial number n rather generating randomly selected u1 u2 intentional way assuring fail safe government u determined given s1 , s2 n s1 s2 change constitute effective master keys \( along f \) , theft \( possession various authorities \) completely security system however , interestingly , know , fact s1 s2 fixed matter keyspace u 2 30 pick u1 u2 random \? interesting restriction key space provide additional back door \? find disturbing best security dependant approximately 30 bytes worth information could written back even s1 s2 change periodically , rationale behind restriction size keyspace seems strange one assuming goal security makes perfect sense goal illusion security s1 s2 change , even remain secret wonder somehow back derived given enough unit key serial number pairs assured cannot happen one understands skipjack works outside government officials , soon , foreign intelligence services gain information via espionage presumably eventually information well reverse engineering gets advanced every year time know may late sequence values u1 , u2 , u generated , written onto three separate floppy disks first disk contains file serial number contains corresponding key part u1 second disk similar contains u2 values third disk contains unit keys u agent 1 takes first disk agent 2 takes second disk third disk used program chips chips programmed , information discarded vault agents leave laptop may destroyed additional assurance information left behind none makes feel least bit secure silly notion destroying laptop appears yet another bizarre distraction know ca n't read data dram turned moments hand , n't know need generate unit keys s1 s2 first place weaken system n't know agents question would resist million cash piece information probably worth hundreds million , make bribe arbitrarily hard resist tell truth , vault rather joe random tempest shielded room laptop computer seems like designed make high school peoria impressed little rest us protocol may changed slightly four people room instead two first two would provide seeds s1 s2 , second two \( escrow agents \) would take disks back escrow agencies would provide \? lets say escrow agencies aclu nra agents personally take back disks always honest cares \? nsa must laughing loud , algorithm u given n likely n't need steal keys effectively already perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire , laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
jebright magnus acs ohio state edu \( james r ebright \) subject shelf cheap des keyseach machine \( corporate acceptance wiretap chip \) summary fort meade lots compute power anywhere else nntp posting host bottom magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 43 article 1993apr19 jarvis csri toronto edu lewis eecg toronto edu \( david lewis \) writes article c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu \( john kelsey \) writes strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes stuff deleted would trust confidential information encryption scheme , \( say \) 100 , 000 could cracked one time hundred \? \( des , complaints 56 bit key , would probably cost several million dollars build keysearch machine \) buy des keysearch machine shelf approx 500k , sold name go buy circuit emulation machine \( eg \) containing bunch , \( say 500 1000 3090 's \) , program des search engine lets say 500 chips , running 10mhz 5g tests sec time sec max 23 weeks , 12 weeks average ca n't wait long \? buy bigger machine oh , big brother afford things times tight budgets \? n't know many folks noticed , dorothy trust denning gave real clue current state art nsa machines said nsa told n't even want holder part key \? doubt trapdoor skipjack \( never know \) doubt nsa would promote mass market chip could n't compromise ergo , nsa capable compromising \( probably brute force keysearch \) engines complexity skipjack look specs , bet thousands little chips away crypto busters maybe even tens thousands complexity \? much 3090 many machines fit fort meade \? think pgp2 3 256 bit idea keys information farming addr phone finger ohio state university jebright magnus acs ohio state edu \( \( 0 0 \) \) jim ebright e mail jre osu edu support privacy support encryption \( \)
jebright magnus acs ohio state edu \( james r ebright \) subject tapped , code good nntp posting host bottom magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university distribution na lines 29 article rubin dsg4 dse beckman com \( arthur rubin \) writes strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes 'd happy use crypto system supplied nsa business , told secure des , particular resistant attempts japanese , french , competitive companies governments break \( 's nist , nsa nsa supposed anything \) activity sci crypt past days , missed nist got skipjack nsa \) 'd trust nsa president stated trap doors 'd even happier committee independent experts examined thing seal secrecy reported back secure would n't trust nsa think would trust president , i'm certain would told crook president richard nixon information farming addr phone finger ohio state university jebright magnus acs ohio state edu \( \( 0 0 \) \) jim ebright e mail jre osu edu support privacy support encryption \( \)
gtoal gtoal com \( graham toal \) subject text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption lines 16 brad clarinet com \( brad templeton \) let 's assume , moment , system really secure unless get halves encryption key two independent escrow houses let 's say even trust escrow houses one aclu eff \( i'm entirely joking two names \) i'm really entirely sure trust eff honest anyway , organisation deeply infiltrated look britain dozen years ago one top members sis spy stole complete address list hard would get one person sneak copy escrow data disk \? g
gtoal gtoal com \( graham toal \) subject text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption lines 22 bred wrote means fbi want track customer lists better encryption phones , reason person would want one evade police n't track customer lists merely digitally listen phone line eliminate n't clipper header signature \( one said modulated want bet 's non standard hence easily \? \) devices scan exchanges detect modems etc already exist 've seen advertised trade press eliminate crippled crypto devices ordinary data modems , 's left crypto worth looking closely guess substitute scheme v32bis v fast disguise , though start looking data whatever happens though , effect new chip make private crypto stand like sore thumb g
bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de \( vesselin bontchev \) subject secret algorithm clipper chip crypto key escrow keywords encryption , wiretap , clipper , key escrow , mykotronx reply bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de organization virus test center , university hamburg lines 29 pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) writes , mind , give us one good reason algorithm secret algorithm , unless encryption scheme either joke , contains features like 'master key' back door unauthorized eavesdropping \? hmm , couple 1 \) algorithm becomes known , easy produce pin compatible non crippled chips provide real encryption privacy , keys users' hands 2 \) since skipjack symmetric key cypher , needs way agree session key released information says protocol may used \( e g , dh \) theoretical point view , probably true however , practical point view , chips must kind key exchange protocol built good old rsa \? mean producer pay lots bucks pkp keeping details secret avoided regards , vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center , university hamburg tel 49 40 54715 224 , fax 49 40 54715 226 fachbereich informatik agn pgp 2 2 public key available request vogt koelln strasse 30 , rm 107 c e mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de 2000 hamburg 54 , germany
wcs anchor ho att com \( bill stewart 1 908 949 0705 \) subject fifth amendment passwords organization brought numbers 2 , 3 , 7 reply pmetzger snark shearson com 's message tue , 20 apr 1993 11 21 34 gmt 1993apr19 qualcomm com geraldo cc utexas edu 1993apr20 000359 20098 bernina ethz ch pmetzger snark shearson com nntp posting host rainier ho att com lines 42 article 1993apr20 000359 20098 bernina ethz ch caronni nessie cs id ethz ch \( germano caronni \) writes question provider public bbs service n't bound law gurantee intelligble access data users bbs , police comes sufficent authorisation \? guessed would basic condition systems \( run bbs time ago , switzerland \) us n't yet many laws covering bbss 're common carriers , 're phone companies , 're private machines services operated businesses 's obligation keep records perry metzger points , police come search warrant , let see warrant demands , exists , generally confiscate equipment evidence \( constitutionally valid , 're beginning develop court cases supporting us \) court may able compel tell information know , encryption password disk n't definitive cases yet , since 's new situation , probably n't laws specifically covering court ca n't force know keys , laws preventing allowing users keys files without giving even areas established law , uncertainty guy idaho years ago business records evidence taxes business restriction law , gave court records hebrew us n't laws forcing keep records english , originals records n't speak hebrew , neither anybody court organization n't think able much might illegal bbs deny access potential customers based race , religion , national origin , gender , sexual preference probably n't tested court , seems like plausible extension anti discrimination laws affecting businesses pray peace bill bill stewart 1 908 949 0705 wcs anchor att com bell labs 4m312 holmdel nj , i'm new jersey , work cyberspace white house commect line 1 202 456 1111 fax 1 202 456 2461
tuinstra signal ece clarkson edu soe \( dwight tuinstra \) subject \( new \) reason clipper secrecy reply tuinstra signal ece clarkson edu soe organization sun microsystems , inc lines 38 nntp posting host signal ece clarkson edu apologies posting alt clipper , whatever , seems may newsfeed may another reason \( good nsa 's point view , horrible everyone else 's \) algorithm chip design might secret first , note experts look details , algorithm addition , respected experts outside government offered access confidential details algorithm assess capabilities publicly report findings chip design \? well , 's possiblity addition encryption , chip pre processes voice signals make easier analyze electronically chip , widespread , might effectively part massively parallel computer voice us phone network \( criminal wrong thinking patrons thereof \) would n't put past nsa think much easier would make life indeed case , think possible public outcry become widely known thus secrecy might good idea experts dsp , voice recognition , ai conversation understanding panel , insist given \( \) design specs implementation documentation dwight tuinstra best tuinstra sandman ece clarkson edu tolerable tuinstrd craft camp clarkson edu look , kid , 's something god knows , 're
ameline vnet ibm com \( ian ameline \) subject facinating facts 30 bit serial number , possibly fixed s1 s2 organization c set 2 development , ibm canada lab disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , ibm lines 106 hmmm must assume generating unit key u serial number n rather generating randomly selected u1 u2 intentional way assuring fail safe government u determined given s1 , s2 n s1 s2 change constitute effective master keys \( along f \) , theft \( possession various authorities \) completely security system however , interestingly , know , fact s1 s2 fixed matter keyspace u 2 30 pick u1 u2 random \? interesting restriction key space provide additional back door \? find disturbing best security dependant approximately 30 bytes worth information could written back even s1 s2 change periodically , rationale behind restriction size keyspace seems strange one assuming goal security makes perfect sense goal illusion security s1 s2 change , even remain secret wonder somehow back derived given enough unit key serial number pairs assured cannot happen one understands skipjack works outside government officials , soon , foreign intelligence services gain information via espionage presumably eventually information well reverse engineering gets advanced every year time know may late perhaps trusted escrow agencies ones come s1 s2 , agencies really trusted \( aclu nra interesting example \) , hope 'll use physical process come truly random numbers nsa comes numbers , 's trap door could drive truck none makes feel least bit secure either seems following cpsr starting question april 16 , 1993 washington , dc computer professionals call public debate new government encryption initiative computer professionals social responsibility \( cpsr \) today called public disclosure technical data underlying government 's newly announced public encryption management initiative new cryptography scheme announced today white house national institute standards technology \( nist \) , implement technical specifications plan nist spokesman acknowledged national security agency \( nsa \) , super secret military intelligence agency , actually developed encryption technology around new initiative built according nist , technical specifications presidential directive establishing plan classified open initiative public review debate , cpsr today filed series freedom information act \( foia \) requests key agencies , including nsa , nist , national security council fbi information relating encryption plan cpsr requests keeping spirit computer security act , congress passed 1987 order open development non military computer security standards public scrutiny limit nsa 's role creation standards cpsr previously questioned role nsa developing called digital signature standard \( dss \) , communications authentication technology nist proposed government wide use 1991 cpsr sued nist foia lawsuit last year , civilian agency disclosed first time nsa , fact , developed security standard nsa due file papers federal court next week justifying classification records concerning creation dss david sobel , cpsr legal counsel , called administration 's apparent commitment privacy electronic communications , reflected today 's official statement , step right direction questioned propriety nsa 's role process apparent secrecy thus far shielded development process public scrutiny time moving towards development new information infrastructure , vital standards designed protect personal privacy established openly full public participation appropriate nsa agency long tradition secrecy opposition effective civilian cryptography play leading role development process cpsr national public interest alliance computer industry professionals dedicated examining impact technology society cpsr 21 chapters u maintains offices palo alto , california , cambridge , massachusetts washington , dc additional information cpsr , call \( 415 \) 322 e mail cpsr csli stanford edu regards , ian ameline
phys ksu edu \( rob quinn \) subject stray thought \( technical details organization kansas state university lines 18 nntp posting host bohr phys ksu edu 1993apr19 ulysses att com smb research att com \( steven bellovin \) writes date sun , 18 apr 93 07 56 39 edt denning cs georgetown edu \( dorothy denning \) clipper chip secret crypto algorithm embedded algorithm operates 64 bit blocks \( like des \) chip supports 4 des modes operation algorithm uses 32 rounds scrambling compared 16 des years could millions chips usa , networked together \? sounds like good science fiction story government wants crack foreign des \( whatever \) messages , con public individually buying components installing soon us could covered largest parallel computer world , built top current phone net suppress freedom always rob quinn name law phys ksu edu order john lindsay bitnet
mrr scss3 cl msu edu \( mark riordan \) subject list large integer arithmetic packages organization michigan state university lines 285 nntp posting host scss3 cl msu edu summary c functions arbitrary precision arith x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 file txt ripem msu edu , last updated april 1993 response email requests , assembled list large integer arithmetic packages heard c function libraries , available source form convenience , placed copies ripem msu edu \( 35 8 1 178 \) available anonymous ftp directory pub bignum however , may current version cases , particular order mp multiple precision package comes multiple precision package accessed via flag compiler provides , , , , gcd , , sqrt comes sunos , next mach , bbn mach 1000 , probably others see man mp object code , course pari henri cohen , et al , universite , paris , france multiple precision desk calculator library routines contains optimized assembly code motorola 68020 , semi optimized code sparc , apparently rather slow generic c version integers vectors matrices well contains number advanced functions , 've never heard \( weber 's function \? \) factorization function , primality test , related stuff plenty tex documentation public domain , ca n't distribute modified versions available via anonymous ftp math ucla edu seem mac next specific versions addition filename pari 1 tar z arithmetic global fields \( arith \) kevin r , david r grant package routines arbitrary precision integers finite fields includes basic , , , others like gcd source code c distributed terms gnu public license includes man pages tex documentation filename arith tar z arbitrary precision math library lloyd los , ca c package supports basic , , , provides points \( e , non integers \) polished others posted comp sources misc october 1988 filename tar z bignum j , inria , france , others distributed digital equipment paris research lab \( \) portable efficient arbitrary precision integer package c code , generic c kernel , plus assembly , intel , mips , , pyramid , course vax probably one better known packages type implements , , , , mod , plus logical operations , , xor signed unsigned arithmetic available available via email librarian dec com receive 5 shell archives give postal address also receive printed documentation france package includes tex documentation publicly available non commercial use removed archive heard rumor prl n't like others distribute however , bignum distributed part \( see \) lenstra 's package arjen lenstra bellcore portable unsigned integer package written entirely c includes , , , , , mod , primality testing , sqrt , random number generator , others package undocumented tried add enough comments get packages actually used works well portable n't done benchmarks others , code looks clever lenstra accomplished number theorist unlike packages , one requires allocate storage statically problem numbers really huge arjen placed code public domain filename lenstra tar z lenstra 3 1 arjen lenstra , bellcore improved version arjen 's package one signed arithmetic dynamic allocation \( turned option \) new routines , lenstra 3 1 contains minor previously available lenstra 2 lenstra 3 filename lenstra 3 1 c bmp \( brent 's multiple precision \? \) r p brent 1981 vintage fortran code extended precision floating fixed point arithmetic includes mathematical functions 'd find fortran run time library code acm algorithm , number 524 obtain , send mail message netlib ornl gov containing line send mp f bmp better yet , perhaps start help spx joseph , dec huge prototype public key authentication system based rsa mention heard spx probably correctly guessed contains large integer package want inform large integer package contains indeed dec 's bignum france get beta test copy spx crl dec com \( 192 58 206 2 \) use testing , may expire certain date \( n't know whether expired yet \) amp \( antti 's multiple precision \? \) antti hut fi multiple precision integer package c includes , , , , , pow , mod , 1 x mod , random , sqrt , gcd available non commercial use package includes share secret , public key system based diffie hellman algorithm normally part well known des dist tar z , removed des part avoid deal cryptographic export laws , named result filename amp tar z per u wisconsin madison c routines classes generic arithmetic , integer rational formerly available cs wis edu however , seems disappeared sorry \( someone dublin , ireland \) integer multiple precision package includes factorization , primality testing , encryption public domain , apparently available austin code works \( see ads byte magazine dr dobbs \) precision dave barrett tigger colorado edu multiple precision integer package c , , , , sqrt , rand , mod , pow , log simple vector support dynamic allocation memory free long n't sell program uses filename precision tar z prof , university , 3 , tokyo 171 , japan ac jp multiple precision version basic programming language , ms dos includes floating point said \( keith briggs \) pretty fast object , think bitnet says best package know fast arithmetic version optimized 386 machines includes routines , fastest currently known general factoring algorithm additional file sites allow use hard drives factor 80 digits many number theoretical functions included allows 2500 digits precision available via anonymous ftp shape mps ohio state edu , simtel20 army mil , wuarchive wustl edu calc unknown ms dos c like language allows infinite precision nice intrinsic functions bitnet reports problems changing precision fly see simtel20 wuarchive briggs arith keith briggs \( maths mu oz au \) turbo pascal 5 source routines multiple precision , , , , sqrt , gcd , factoring , rand integers also includes , , , rand rational numbers filename briggs arith pas institute fur mathematik dr gerhard schneider \( \? \) fast c multiple precision subroutine library n't know anything ely cl cam ac uk says contact bitnet info postal address institute fur mathematik 29 12 germany markus mueller \( mueller tik ethz ch \) multi precision arithmetic written modula 2 , time critical parts written assembler includes basic \( , , , , \) well modulo number additional module provides collection procedures primality testing , gcd , inverse package part privacy enhanced mail \( pem \) package includes pem mailer , rsa key generator certificate generation tools source modula 2 , c , assembler sun 3 also ported ms dos logitech modula 2 turbo assembler availability free university use \( research education \) otherwise , source license required obtain , write email markus mueller 7 ch switzerland email mueller tik ethz ch bignum 1 2 henrik johansson nexus comm se bignum package written portable c future conform common lisp functions handles integers currently includes , , , , , , comparison , random numbers , gcd filename bignum 1 2 gnu multiple precision gnu \( free software foundation \) multiple precision package n't looked yet current april 1992 , may recent version time read package widely available ftp sites filename 1 2 tar z curve primality proving francois , france large package prove primality prime includes inria 's bignum package obtained ftp inria fr \( 128 93 1 26 \) filename v3 4 1 tar z pgp \( pretty good privacy \) philip zimmermann prz sage cgd ucar edu intel based crypto package includes bignum routines c , said quite fast intel processors unix mac versions also available crypto package violates rsa patents , bignum routines used without fear legal repercussions bell 's arbitrary precision calculator david bell , australia \( pd oz au \) arbitrary precision calculator good online help , c like language , many builtin functions , support integers , rational numbers \( work like floating point \) , complex numbers , matrices , strings , lists , files , objects includes gcd , primality testing , even trig functions recommended \( large package , though \) obtained comp sources unix filename calc 1 24 7 tar z built support languages various multiple precision arithmetic available number programming languages , lisp abc \( cf mcsun eu net \) perl \( larry wall , available devvax jpl nasa gov \) includes source , perl , package , 's probably suitable serious use , source code may available list long enough , i'm going pursue aggressively thanks ed several others contributed list mark riordan mrr ripem msu edu
ted nmsu edu \( ted \) subject text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption organization computing research lab lines 7 distribution na nntp posting host nmsu edu reply clipper csrc ncsl nist gov 's message fri , 16 apr 1993 15 19 06 gmt nobody seems noticed clipper chip must development considerably longer 3 months clinton president something choosing choosing bush clinton would changed slightest works time
gtoal gtoal com \( graham toal \) subject facinating facts 30 bit serial number , possibly fixed s1 s2 lines 20 pmetzger snark shearson com \( perry e metzger \) denning guvax acc georgetown edu \( vidkun abraham quisling \) writes chip includes following components skipjack encryption algorithm f , 80 bit family key common chips n , 30 bit serial number u , 80 bit secret key unlocks messages encrypted chip hmmm thirty bit serial number , told , unit key u derived serial number means one billion possible unit keys oh hell , 's much worse think 'll ever make million \? serial numbers n't handed random know , start 1 work call 20 bit space maybe g
rja14 cl cam ac uk \( ross anderson \) subject clipper chip technical details nntp posting host ely cl cam ac uk organization u cambridge computer lab , uk lines 13 article 1993apr19 ulysses att com smb research att com \( steven bellovin \) writes nothing said k p comes 've got secure device , n't need public keys secret key chips share sk , use kp e \( , yourname , date \) sk maybe 's jim bidzos reported ross
res colnet cmhnet org \( rob stampfli \) subject tapped , code good organization little none distribution na lines 13 e mail , ca n't break pgp encryption , 'll call one tempest trucks read electromagnetic emmisions computer terminal note measures protect 2 could independently invent half dozen right top head studied advanced e little better , could probably come good system would n't second monitor similar type scrolling gibberish adjacent one used provide reasonable resistance tempest attacks \? rob stampfli rob colnet cmhnet org neat thing standards 614 864 ham radio oh many choose
res colnet cmhnet org \( rob stampfli \) subject old key registration idea organization little none lines 18 article access digex net pcw access digex com \( peter \) writes leads conjecture 2 \) system vulnerable simple phone swapping attacks seriously doubt practical implementation proposal would place onus individual register keys realistically , clipper chip probably emit id code serve identifier requesting key fragments chip manufacturer would register identifier code vs key combination chip made \( \) end user therefore remain completely outside loop chip could used cellular phone , modem , device really makes difference authorities detect use encryption standard surveillance , would capture id apply key order decrypt data rob stampfli rob colnet cmhnet org neat thing standards 614 864 ham radio oh many choose
coop com \( felix \) subject tapped , code good organization cooperative computing , inc distribution na lines 31 pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) writes clinton clipper good , please note bill clinton probably little anything design , implementation reasoning behind chip behind moves made using chip pawn remember , elect president united states , 's case republicans , etc nsa fbi cia immediately pack bags get replaced team fresh young democrats government say , 96 appointed hired rather elected since clipper device production six months , probably little foundation currently elected democratic executive body btw suggest attack clinton , believe would going ballistic seriously proposed thing another step gradual erosion rights constitution bill rights last couple decades non stop series end runs around protections constitution stop good time , n't late allready could however , sky n't fallen yet , chicken little pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc 1 207 \( pat myrto \) seattle , wa else fails , try ! uunet ! pilchuck ! rwing ! pat wisdom two things infinite universe human stupidity , sure former albert einstien
marc tanda isis org \( marc thibault \) subject n't fight clipper chip , subvert replace ! reply marc tanda isis org distribution na organization thibault friends lines 10 article ygoland wright \( jester \) writes proof windows virus widespread , eats disk space , slows computer , takes control computer , performs disk access random times , displays silly messages screen , randomly crashes computer vesselin sounds like version unix solaris \?
koontzd phobos lrmsc loral com \( david koontz \) subject spoofing clipper serial number distribution usa organization loral rolm mil spec computers lines 35 secrecy clipper chip serial number clipper chip encrypted system key transmitted one part three part message presumably protocol recovered \( nothing else , differential analysis \) postulate , chip \( logic \) sitting clipper chip communications channel purpose chip twofold 1 \) transmit channel spoof chip xors 30 bit encrypted serial number secondary keying variable renders serial number system key 2 \) recieve channel spoof chip xors incoming encrypted serial number secondary keying variable \( assuming serial number necessary local operation \) net result hiding serial number gets interesting number serial numbers issued becomes large , making difficult distinguish valid serial numbers spoofed serial number without knowing system key , could lie serial number , risk detection lie system key encryption algorithm could successfully lie lower probability detection format serial number makes wonder whats hidden \? seems like secrecy prevent lying
butzerd maumee eng ohio state edu \( dane c butzer \) subject large commercial keys \? organization ohio state university dept electrical engineering lines 13 typical sizes keys commercial secret key algorithms \? know des 56 bits \( des 112 bits \) idea 128 bits anything made us 128 bit keys \? anything anywhere larger keys \? 've heard rc2 scaled arbitrarily large keys , actually implemented anywhere \? finally , anyone even time place 128 bit keys n't sufficient \? \( certainly ca n't even trillion keys second , would take 10 billion years search one keys space \) thanks , dane
amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) subject need clipper cheap security \? organization intercon systems corporation herndon , va usa lines 68 distribution world reply amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) nntp posting host chaos intercon com x newsreader intercon tcp connect ii 1 1 pmetzger snark shearson com \( perry e metzger \) writes clipper chip cheap crypto masses , obviously one could thing without building back doors agree cylink \( expensive \) game town \? note think cylink great , boss would double salary , 'd buy bunch stuff \) one thing clipper offers interoperability , higher degree security currently non proprietary voice encryption systems means cheaper anyone 's proprietary scheme , easier deploy , course , either bug feature depending look \) indeed , even without special engineering , construct good system right standard codec chip , chip , des chip , v32bis integrated modem module , small processor glue work , need secure phone great ! buy \? another note clipper increases incentive bring stronger encryption mass market , better 's far overpriced moment yes , cheap crypto good n't need government n't care need get , care get , whether interoperate everyone else indeed , government everything possible stop , qualcomm would designed strong encryption right cdma cellular phone system pioneering nsa company , cheap encryption systems would everywhere , try every trick book stop , i'm sure cheap secure phones would right build right long n't want export \( restriction firmly oppose \) thing stopping people making cheap encryption greed want lock market n't ones making cheap crypto available ones keeping cheap crypto people 's hands hand clipper chip , getting mess prize traded oh , come trust farther deserves clipper phone substitute cylink phone , stu iii 's substitute voice advertised back radio electronics getting cheaper crypto \? , market would provided deliberately sabotaged disagree modulo itar , 's government sabotaged market someone please tell exactly get social contract exchange giving right strong cryptography \? tell exactly given right \? amanda walker intercon systems corporation
brad optilink com \( brad yearwood \) subject clipper considered harmful organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 48 clipper comes cellular phones along legal using cipher systems phones , new potentially dangerous class crime created criminals badly want inscrutable tactical communications \( specifically terrorists drug dealers proponents key escrow cite threats \) highly motivated steal cipher phone legitimate user , kill person hold hostage discovery compromise device delayed suitable collection devices stolen , criminals communicate impunity \( assuming cipher system carries trapdoors apart key escrow \) unless compromise discovered means life cheap criminals currently willing kill people steal large conspicuous property \( luxury cars \) , reasonable assume willing kill people steal small inconspicuous property \( cipher cellular phone \) seen past blue box technology , present modified cellular phones , expect see among high stakes criminals lucrative market stolen cipher phones used days high stakes criminals pay life cheap types substantial amounts stolen instruments person typically discovered missing dead days , stolen instrument usable days continuing demand fresh phones fresh bodies words , clipper similar systems potential turn current inconvenience law enforcement direct , vicious , persistent threat general public hand , criminal apply arbitrary cipher device mostly non network , communication least stand unusual , perhaps worthy means investigation finally , essentially possibility intercepting realtime content communications stolen instruments , exist strong motivation record archive communications network ex post facto scrutiny \( criminal act discovered , instruments involved identified \) recording archiving may feasible networks , probably feasible across limited bandwidth radio networks existence recordings could open vast potential abuse brad yearwood brad optilink com uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! brad petaluma , ca
butzerd maumee eng ohio state edu \( dane c butzer \) subject tapped , code good organization ohio state university dept electrical engineering distribution na lines 19 article 1993apr20 colnet cmhnet org res colnet cmhnet org \( rob stampfli \) writes e mail , ca n't break pgp encryption , 'll call one tempest trucks read electromagnetic emmisions computer terminal note measures protect 2 could independently invent half dozen right top head studied advanced e little better , could probably come good system would n't second monitor similar type scrolling gibberish adjacent one used provide reasonable resistance tempest attacks \? actually , old video games pinball machines supposed work pretty good \( blocking em eavesdropping \) , things put lot em noise back 80 's , read computer companies putting bunches games buildings purpose \( mention \) dane
lars spectrum cmc com \( lars \) subject security clipper \? organization cmc network systems \( rockwell dcd \) , santa barbara , ca , usa lines 35 article zeev ccc amdahl com zeev ccc amdahl com \( ze'ev wurman \) writes seems discussions clipper security almost irrelevant cannot choose key , use key chosen , security whole universe users good \( bad \) security vlsi technologies inc handlers trivial effort run ciphertext agains keys ever manufactured talking 1 100 million keys ever manufactured key secure wish , nobody cares anyway \( key irrelevant order applicable law agencies able know keys request escrow , system serial number clear text part link establishment protocol whoever owns program assigns keys serial number wo n't need access key words , fbi may need court ordered release escrowed keys , nsa keys chip ever manufactured need go escrow try keys relations law agencies sometimes strained , also long history trading favors establish nsa important agency everyone get along , give untraceable encryption leaks without court orders think affair , smells 'd rather des engineered backdoor lars , software engineer internet e mail lars cmc com cmc network products rockwell int'l telephone 1 805 968 santa barbara , ca 93117 telefax 1 805 968
amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) subject screw people , crypto hard core hackers spooks organization intercon systems corporation herndon , va usa lines 35 distribution world reply amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) nntp posting host chaos intercon com x newsreader intercon tcp connect ii 1 1 jhart agora rain com \( jim hart \) writes n't care people lied , fooled believing chip gives privacy fact allows wiretaps \? give privacy , absolute privacy announcement front , allowing wiretaps fooling anyone \? smart know 're talking somebody wiretap chip phone instead privacy chip private keys \? \) sure two n't interoperate could n't talk , say , cylink phone clipper phone would expect even phones come indicators saying kind link encryption use need alternative nsa bugged telephones , 're talking inexpensive telephones , including hand sized , need strong crypto , real privacy start company build still mostly capitalist economy need true privacy chip example , real time voice encryption rsa , put silicon compiler spit asic put chip market de facto standard international business , diplomats , private communications agree go amanda walker intercon systems corporation
tcmay netcom com \( timothy c may \) subject text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 distribution na lines 26 ted \( ted nmsu edu \) wrote nobody seems noticed clipper chip must development considerably longer 3 months clinton president something choosing choosing bush clinton would changed slightest works time actually , many us noted noted program started least 4 years ago , contracts vlsi technology let least 14 months ago , production chips well underway , forth nobody know claimed clinton program chose go ahead tim may timothy c may crypto anarchy encryption , digital money , tcmay netcom com anonymous networks , digital pseudonyms , zero 408 688 5409 knowledge , reputations , information markets , w e aptos , ca black markets , collapse governments higher power 2 756839 public key pgp mailsafe available
ray ole cdac com \( ray berry \) subject clipper business usual \? article ole 1993apr20 organization cascade design automation lines 17 notwithstanding legitimate fuss proposal , much change \? att 's last product area \( \) priced 1000 , suspect 'clipper' phones \( b \) came customer key automatically government authorities thus , aside attempting legitimize fed 's posture , clipper seems , rather new direction yes , technology eventually drive cost thereby promote widespread use present , man street going purchase 1000 crypto telephone , especially guy end probably n't one anyway missing something \? real question gov year two air tight voice privacy phone line close nearest pc got problematic scenario , even extent usage never stature pgp ray berry ray ole cdac com eskimo com compuserve com
shirriff sprite berkeley edu \( ken shirriff \) subject tapped , code good organization university california , berkeley lines 12 distribution na nntp posting host berkeley edu article apr18 194927 17048 yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu \( douglas craig holland \) writes e mail , ca n't break pgp encryption , 'll call one tempest trucks read electromagnetic emmisions computer terminal note measures protect tempest surveillance still classified , far know note tempest name shielding standard tempest name surveillance technique ken shirriff shirriff sprite berkeley edu disclaimer 've heard 's sci crypt faq , 's probably true ca n't guarantee 'd like know i'm wrong
amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) subject text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption organization intercon systems corporation herndon , va usa lines 11 distribution world reply amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) nntp posting host chaos intercon com x newsreader intercon tcp connect ii 1 1 gtoal gtoal com \( graham toal \) writes whatever happens though , effect new chip make private crypto stand like sore thumb already amanda walker intercon systems corporation
eachus spectre mitre org \( robert eachus \) subject would clipper make good cover encryption method \? reply kadie eff org 's message tue , 20 apr 1993 03 26 23 gmt nntp posting host spectre mitre org organization mitre corp , bedford , lines 52 article 1993apr20 032623 3046 eff org kadie eff org \( carl kadie \) writes clipper might good way cover use another layer encryption , making custom equipment case , roll clipper implementation report wrong keys escrow agency \? \( tells us going chip business thing goes nsa , something hide nsa \) anyone verify phone using key registered serial number , either 1 \) court ordered wiretap going \? tell judge individual really privacy \? know keys enough , 2 \) court ordered wiretap phone series \( part really scary since expectation chips particular batch uses seeds based s1 s2 serial number , getting keys one batch may give access \) 3 \) backdoor allows messages deciphered without keys find one especially threatening since scheme seems open known plaintext attacks \( need decipher data header talk someone one phones , presumably automatically negotiated key generated i'm trying decipher record conversation know said , use known plaintext recover backdoor represented header , know header says conversations participate even worse , phones series related keys , buy phone chip production lot recover keys , either elegantly talking , brute force analysis actual chip , apply key generation process seeds find target keys \) hmmm ! n't think want ever come close phones even des starting look good two cans string provide much better security robert eachus standard disclaimer use standard disclaimer function message \( text clever ideas \) return better ideas
com subject tempest vs lcd \( tapped \) organization management graphics , inc lines 19 douglas craig holland \( holland cs colostate edu \) writes e mail , ca n't break pgp encryption , 'll call one tempest trucks read electromagnetic emmisions computer terminal note measures protect tempest surveillance still classified , far know steiner jupiter cse utoledo edu \( jason 'think ! ' steiner \) writes lcd displays vulnerable tempest \? see high voltage type display devices vulnerable \( crts , plasma displays , etc \) jason beat question em radiation low voltage items like lcd displays \? perhaps critical element driver circuitry \? cabling \? portable pc mac etc , noise one tiny area \?
smb research att com \( steven bellovin \) subject shelf cheap des keyseach machine \( corporate acceptance wiretap chip \) organization bell laboratories lines 28 article 1993apr20 magnus acs ohio state edu , jebright magnus acs ohio state edu \( james r ebright \) writes \? doubt trapdoor skipjack \( never know \) doubt nsa would promote mass market chip could n't compromise ergo , nsa capable compromising \( probably brute force keysearch \) engines complexity skipjack look specs , bet thousands little chips away crypto busters maybe even tens thousands complexity \? much 3090 many machines fit fort meade \? think pgp2 3 256 bit idea keys thousands \? tens thousands \? arithmetic , please skipjack 2 80 possible keys let 's assume brute force engine like hypothesized des 1 microsecond per trial , 1 million chips 's 10 12 trials per second , 38 , 000 years 2 80 trials well , maybe get chips running one trial per nanosecond , build machine 10 million chips sure 3 8 years solution idea uses 128 bit keys shall bother calculations \? hint multiply 3 8 years 2 \( 128 80 \) ca n't idea speed key setup takes much long would n't surprised case skipjack , , though 's way knowing yet des used xor 's feasible mid 70 's technology modern chips lot nsa may may know crack skipjack idea \( doubt former idea latter , though seem strong cryptosystem \) ai n't gonna exhaustive search
kepley photon phys unca edu \( brad kepley \) subject tapped , code good organization university north carolina distribution na lines 13 article 1993apr20 coop com coop com \( felix \) writes pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) writes clinton clipper good , please note bill clinton probably little anything design , implementation reasoning behind chip behind ca n't move political bickering appropriate group \? brad kepley internet kepley photon phys unca edu work days voice \( 704 \) 252 8330
bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de \( vesselin bontchev \) subject clipper considered harmful reply bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de organization virus test center , university hamburg lines 37 brad optilink com \( brad yearwood \) writes criminals badly want inscrutable tactical communications \( terrorists drug dealers proponents key escrow cite threats \) highly motivated steal cipher phone legitimate user , kill person hold hostage discovery compromise device delayed rough manner \? much professional steal chip phone even replace pin compatible nothing chip encrypt chances victim notice anything , especially done professionally suitable collection devices stolen , criminals communicate impunity \( assuming cipher system carries trapdoors apart key escrow \) unless compromise discovered means , feds still able decrypt conversations true , 'll blame wrong guys , nevertheless one cannot say something like drugs arrive tommorrow ship feds listening , even cannot identify speaker , criminals use secure encryption new proposal stop criminals ensures government able wiretap average citizen stops casual snooper , also clearly looks step towards outlawing strong encryption devices regards , vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center , university hamburg tel 49 40 54715 224 , fax 49 40 54715 226 fachbereich informatik agn pgp 2 2 public key available request vogt koelln strasse 30 , rm 107 c e mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de 2000 hamburg 54 , germany
bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de \( vesselin bontchev \) subject large commercial keys \? reply bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de organization virus test center , university hamburg lines 15 butzerd maumee eng ohio state edu \( dane c butzer \) writes finally , anyone even time place 128 bit keys n't sufficient \? depends algorithm used 128 bit secret keys rsa definitively secure enough regards , vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center , university hamburg tel 49 40 54715 224 , fax 49 40 54715 226 fachbereich informatik agn pgp 2 2 public key available request vogt koelln strasse 30 , rm 107 c e mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de 2000 hamburg 54 , germany
pmetzger snark shearson com \( perry e metzger \) subject screw people , crypto hard core hackers spooks organization partnership america free drug lines 32 jfc athena mit edu \( john f carr \) writes article 19930419 305 almaden ibm com ameline vnet ibm com \( ian ameline \) writes also believe someone reverse engineer clipper chip , knowlege algorithm likely fairly widespread chip algorithm classified reverse engineer tell people , likely go jail well , i'm lawyer , tell completely utterly untrue see , country thing called constitution legitimately device , government employee otherwise , n't think stop revealing anything device determine remember pentagon papers precedent \? first amendment applies u official secrets act laws punish revealing classified information learned capacity government official , contractor , etc , laws prohibit stealing information however , sell chip , ca n't see make reverse engineering revealing details illegal perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire , laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
gtoal gtoal com \( graham toal \) subject really work \? \( text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption \) lines 22 marc vanheyningen mvanheyn cs indiana edu majority discussion involving clipper chip seems pertain encryption telephone conversations anyone know means chip designed work primarily analog signals \? language sort suggests , 's hard say 'd lay bucks data data parallel suspect make phone 'd need codec speech compression would loss bandwidth speech signal , suspect would suggestions 've seen putting different encryption front end 's hint modulation scheme docs i'm sure 's purely digital chip back end come later , i'm positive wo n't left manufacturers modulation scheme make easy nsa tap possibility intended isdn phones \( puts whole new spin obsession isdn true , ! \) \) g
graham toal gtoal gtoal com subject tapped , code good originator gtoal pizzabox demon co uk nntp posting host pizzabox demon co uk reply graham toal gtoal gtoal com organization cuddlehogs anonymous distribution na lines 17 article 2073 rwing uucp pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) writes clinton clipper good , make public many people exchange ideas examine , rather isolated \( respected \? \? perhaps certain professor likes key banks would one selected experts seem expand ideas person advocating , recall \) would anybody know actually , completely baffled dorothy denning chosen throw away academic respectability like looks like major career limiting move people know 's saying take seriously wonder landed fat fee cooperation nsa design propoganda stages n't care \? g
gtoal gtoal com \( graham toal \) subject clipper chip lines 30 dan mckinnon dan mckinnon canrem com bit lately , though math unknown , found interesting thought would post article found saturday , april 17 , 1993 toronto star protect privacy politics course dirty pool , old man , classic example nsa administration working long time , parallel announcement us , see 're hitting press propoganda 's bet big magazines byte , scientific american , et ready run pre written government slanted story next issue \( 'just keep us pages spare boys , 'll give copy time \) must get big names industry write well argued pieces proposal \( call 's de facto announcement \? \) get big magazines much damage done would well worth folks archiving discussions since day announcement keep arguments fingertips think us could write quite good piece , among us carries enough clout guarantee publication \? phil \? parker \? mitch kapor \? g
gtoal gtoal com \( graham toal \) subject secret algorithm clipper chip crypto key escrow lines 65 gtoal news ibmpcug co uk \( graham toal \) writes try reading lines david strong hints 're angling nren next , \? honestly n't see hint 1 sophisticated encryption technology used years protect electronic funds transfer used protect electronic mail computer files encryption hint 2 new technology help companies protect proprietary information , protect privacy personal phone conversations prevent unauthorized release data transmitted electronically time technology preserves privacy citizens , including need employ voice data encryption business purposes ability authorized officials access telephone calls data , proper court legal order , necessary protect citizens big hint 3 administration committed working private sector spur development national information infrastructure use new telecommunications computer technologies give americans unprecedented access information infrastructure high speed networks \( information superhighways \) transmit video , images , hdtv programming , huge data files easily today 's telephone system transmits voice big hint 4 \( see \) since encryption technology play increasingly important role infrastructure , federal government must act quickly develop consistent , comprehensive policies regarding use conceivable meaning applying particular technology computer network intend used exclusion means encryption disagree , reason already standards place besides , even restrict encryption nren , cares \? internet commercial anyway nren university research \( read proposals 's data superhighway cray users , anything internet \) oh , see point think 're wrong sit back wait find i'm right , 'll late listen carefully first permitted network shoe drop g
jbotz mtholyoke edu \( jurgen botz \) subject secret source announcement organization mount holyoke college lines 32 distribution world nntp posting host mtholyoke edu article marc oliver mit edu marc mit edu \( marc horowitz n1nzu \) writes , asked , rather , asked computer telnet csrc ncsl nist gov 25 trying connected csrc ncsl nist gov escape character ' ' 220 first org sendmail 4 1 nist ready sat , 17 apr 93 20 42 56 edt expn clipper 250 csspab mail gw ncsl nist gov 221 first org closing connection connection closed well , n't interesting dorothy denning , mitch kapor , even interesting smtp server csrc ncsl nist gov longer recognizes commands telnet csrc ncsl nist gov smtp trying 129 6 54 11 connected csrc ncsl nist gov escape character ' ' 220 first org sendmail 4 1 nist ready tue , 20 apr 93 17 01 34 edt expn clipper 500 command unrecognized seems like sombody n't like snooping around , marc jurgen botz , jbotz mtholyoke edu machines respond finger south hadley , , usa request list items currently unix dead , long live unix available purchase
rdippold qualcomm com \( ron asbestos dippold \) subject text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption originator rdippold qualcom qualcomm com nntp posting host qualcom qualcomm com organization qualcomm , inc , san diego , ca distribution na lines 12 ted nmsu edu \( ted \) writes nobody seems noticed clipper chip must development considerably longer 3 months clinton president something choosing choosing bush clinton would changed slightest works time 've got doubts would probably gone ahead bush still president 's puzzling people apparently amazed clinton going along , mrs lincoln , like play \?
grant dockmaster ncsc mil \( lynn r grant \) subject another key registration body bites dust \( imho \) organization yale cs mail news gateway lines 46 one candidates suggested key registration body aclu think poor choice aclu essentially group auditors audit people 's civil liberties administered traditionally , auditors like get involved design operational aspects things , good reason systems programmer , always auditors would come tell us implementation security point view , would n't tell us fix always figured liked , without work help fix problem took stint , found real reason auditors n't like recommend solutions , puts bad position criticize implementation later say , well , told us way would ok compromises independence necessary part 's job taking case hand , suppose aclu becomes key half registrar suppose , perhaps error aclu 's part , key half gets away n't , used deprive someone civil liberties aclu gets wind , wants take court end time side defendant plaintiff , easy position exceptions complete independence auditors one place worked , payroll checks printed , signed automatically signature drum bursting machine drum kept auditors \( also kept check stock \) , brought data processing time checks believe difference situation key registration situation fairly obvious time payroll checks done yesterday , someone wants today , better able produce yesterday 's checks destroyed determining many requests key halves legit trickier process , one much prone mistakes could put aclu protecting client versus protecting aclu conflict interest always , opinions lynn grant grant dockmaster ncsc mil
amolitor nmsu edu \( andrew molitor \) subject shelf cheap des keyseach machine \( corporate acceptance wiretap chip \) organization department mathematics lines 28 nntp posting host moink nmsu edu article 1993apr20 192105 11751 ulysses att com smb research att com \( steven bellovin \) writes responding claims skipjack cracking engines thousands \? tens thousands \? arithmetic , please skipjack 2 80 possible keys let 's assume brute force engine like hypothesized des 1 microsecond per trial , 1 million chips 's 10 12 trials per second , 38 , 000 years 2 80 trials well , maybe get chips running one trial per nanosecond , build machine 10 million chips sure 3 8 years solution think also point mystical des engines known plaintext engines \( unless add ton really smart hardware \? \) digitized voice , exists short time , probably couple inches copper , tops 's flatly available bug office hear voice , even digitize , 's going get different bitstream horribly naive suppose regular folks figure crack skipjack , clipper based telephones i'm certainly great deal thought andrew molitor
hanson kronos arc nasa gov \( robin hanson \) subject estimating wiretap costs benefits nntp posting host arc nasa gov organization nasa arc information sciences division lines 38 i'm attempting write serious policy paper examining whether proposed wiretap \( clipper \) chip cost effective tool police investigation , ignoring concerns government intrusions individual privacy , value easy wiretaps investigators greater cost communications industry , customers , support wiretap technology \? rough estimate suggests wiretaps worth five million dollars per year u law enforcement agencies \( 1990 , 872 u wiretaps led 2057 arrests , total police expenditures 28 billion led 11 25 million arrests ref us statistical abstracts \) i'm working estimating wiretap benefit accurately , 'd like ask hardware experts help estimating costs new proposed wiretap technology please send estimates many chips would need made per year keep phones wiretap chips \? much would cost make chip \? much cost develop technology first place \? much would supporting hardware , people , etc cost , per chip \? percentage cheaper would encryption chips support private enterprise could compete meet customer encryption needs \? percentage phone traffic would taken proposed law enforcement blocks \? total cost handling phone traffic per year \? put another way , question i'm asking , police agency wanted particular wiretap pay , charged share full social cost forcing communication wiretap compatible \? would choose buy wiretaps , would find cost effective instead investigate crimes ways \? robin hanson hanson ptolemy arc nasa gov 415 604 ms 269 2 , nasa ames research center , moffett field , ca 94035 510 651 male terrace , fremont , ca 94539
markowitz dockmaster ncsc mil subject exportability pkzip \( rc2 \) organization yale cs mail news gateway lines 36 vesselin bontchev \( bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de \) writes markowitz dockmaster ncsc mil writes interesting note regard permission export pkzip 's encryption scheme twice denied nsa draw conclusions uh , i'm afraid information slightly date obtained license export program whole world , except limited list countries draw conclusions strength algorithm \) sorry less clear \) referring efforts receive export permission nsa pkzip encryption algorithm , effort part phil katz point original version algorithm designed roger \( meaning roger \) twice denied export license second go past fall knowledge phil 's attempts even know sure choose implement algorithm designed roger , though believe least case versions prior 2 0 's question key management \) even applications identical , reason assume nsa would treat way \) mjm michael j markowitz , vp r markowitz dockmaster ncsc mil information security corp 708 405 0500 , fax 708 405 1141 lake cook rd , suite mci 363 1959 , il cis ,
amolitor nmsu edu \( andrew molitor \) subject shelf cheap des keyseach machine \( corporate acceptance wiretap chip \) organization department mathematics lines 19 nntp posting host moink nmsu edu article dns1 nmsu edu amolitor nmsu edu \( andrew molitor \) writes digitized voice , exists short time , probably couple inches copper , tops 's flatly available bug office hear voice , even digitize , 's going get different bitstream idiot plaintext 's relevant session key know , probably n't need chips , \? going brute force something interesting , 'd message stream , sort approximately known , say , bug office chips could get session key change every morning really , 's whole lot easier illicit stick bug phone andrew molitor
hollasch kpc com \( steve hollasch \) subject clipper considered harmful summary blood pouring peoples' heads ! organization kubota pacific computer , inc lines 46 brad optilink com \( brad yearwood \) writes clipper comes cellular phones along legal using cipher systems phones , new potentially dangerous class crime created criminals badly want inscrutable tactical communications \( specifically terrorists drug dealers proponents key escrow cite threats \) highly motivated steal cipher phone legitimate user , kill person hold hostage discovery compromise device delayed yow get sleep brad ! mean people \( e life cheap terrorists drug dealing \) want communicate privacy prefer break house , kill , steal telephone , rather spending 15 k mart buy new phone purchasing load phones black market flea market super market talking \( gasp \) face face walking one millions pay phones using messengers going effort think code phrases like blowout freeway today look , system nothing threaten folks know 're wiretapped , since 's trivial find avenues communication 'd reason resort extreme measures , since plethora simple alternatives easily available among legitimate reasons damn proposed system , n't think need worry terrorist commie drug warlord thugs murdering families , kicking dog leaving toilet seat steal 15 telephone system like urine testing catches small number stupid people , effect bad guys least three neurons working unison wish subvert , heavily cause subject steve hollasch kubota pacific computer , inc hollasch kpc com santa clara , california
amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) subject secret algorithm clipper chip crypto key escrow organization intercon systems corporation herndon , va usa lines 34 distribution world reply amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) nntp posting host chaos intercon com x newsreader intercon tcp connect ii 1 1 gtoal gtoal com \( graham toal \) writes oh , see point think 're wrong sit back wait find i'm right , 'll late listen carefully first permitted network shoe drop 've intent nren spectator nren years commercial ip software vendor , really professional opinion nren , point , irrelevant private sector networking deployed five years ago , would major development , however , 's upgrade nsfnet , attempt revive lagging use national supercomputer centers could cut nsfnet completely , internet would continue along without \( aside universities \) long haul networking internet connectivity long since ceased federal sponsorship regulation , least usa success cix \( commercial internet exchange \) prime example dear vp promoting data superhighway , private sector building , without nsfnet 's restrictions illustrate , connection machine desk machine article posted \( pizzabox demon co uk \) involves commercial ip providers hits amsterdam nsfnet nren appropriate use restrictions 's even 1 \( t1 \) hits eunet gateway qed amanda walker intercon systems corporation
usenet news cso uiuc edu \( net noise owner \) subject facinating facts 30 bit serial number , possibly fixed s1 s2 organization university illinois urbana champaign lines 32 way view method generating unit keys back door else call key generated serial number \? generate unit key serial number n , 30 bit value n first padded fixed 34 bit block produce 64 bit block n1 s1 s2 used keys triple encrypt n1 , producing 64 bit block r1 r1 e e n1 s1 s2 s1 similarly , n padded two 34 bit blocks produce n2 n3 , two additional 64 bit blocks r2 r3 computed r2 e e n2 s1 s2 s1 r3 e e n3 s1 s2 s1 r1 , r2 , r3 concatenated together , giving 192 bits first 80 bits assigned u1 second 80 bits u2 rest discarded unit key u xor u1 u2 u1 u2 key parts separately escrowed two escrow agencies happens need escrow houses completely eliminated say , need access escrow houses decrypt data houses still serve real purpose far generating illusion protection , small town cops wo n't let secret , still go motions going escrow houses , fact federal government build chip generates unit keys encrypted serial number ! 'nuff said
warlord mit edu \( derek atkins \) subject screw people , crypto hard core hackers spooks organization massachusetts institute technology lines 42 nntp posting host mit edu reply jhart agora rain com 's message tue , 20 apr 1993 06 39 11 gmt begin pgp signed message hackers care clipper chip \? give shit anybody 's privacy accept \? perhaps even smart always know 're talking somebody wiretap phone \? find disturbing view ! yes , care everyone 's privacy even n't know happens gov't starts creating legislation clipper technologies become legal encryption forms \? happens clipper type encryption chips available masses \? sure , might method encryption , n't anyone else talk , use \? ca n't assume everyone open appear encryption point specific instance wiretap chip rather , like government telling want copy house key , safe deposit box keys , etc , telling wont use unless totally neccessary sure would n't want encryption different \? derek pgp 2 key available upon request key server pgp public keys toxicwaste mit edu begin pgp signature version 2 2 end pgp signature derek atkins , mit '93 , electrical engineering computer science secretary , mit student information processing board \( sipb \) mit media laboratory , speech research group warlord mit edu pp asel n1nwh
pdc dcs ed ac uk \( paul crowley \) subject secret algorithm clipper chip crypto key escrow reply pdc dcs ed ac uk \( paul crowley \) organization edinburgh university lines 11 quoting pla sktb demon co uk article sktb demon co uk every reason scared shitless take look records mccarthy , hoover \( j edgar , cleaner though sucking \) nixon history record whether j edgar hoover good sucking cleaners , 'll stick damn carpet paul crowley pdc dcs ed ac uk trust know i'm x fold fish jesus !
amolitor nmsu edu \( andrew molitor \) subject tapped , code good organization department mathematical sciences lines 16 distribution na nntp posting host moink nmsu edu article c5so84 hxv demon co uk graham toal gtoal gtoal com writes actually , completely baffled dorothy denning chosen throw away academic respectability like looks like major career limiting move people know 's saying take seriously actually , 've following remarks time , interest i'm also member academia , remarks nothing elevate respectability eyes remains seen whether radical fringe , generally error assume beliefs held majority , even sizable minority especially 're seeing tens , nay dozens , people usenet agreeing andrew molitor
eng com \( daniel robinson \) subject text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption nntp posting host rodin eng com organization communications network systems corp , fremont , ca distribution na lines 20 article 1993apr19 afterlife ncsc mil rlward1 afterlife ncsc mil \( robert ward \) writes article bontchev 734981805 fbihh bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de writes since us constitutions guarantees right every american bear arms , every american entitled , matter read applicable part constitution interpreted context \? , please posting misinterpretation refers right people organize militia , individuals carry handguns , grenades , assault rifles hmmm , could become flame war quickly text well regulated militia amendment written approved , regulated armed remember bounty hunters called regulators \? archaic usage word , original intent amendment weapons , control 0 02 dan robinson
graham toal gtoal gtoal com subject shelf cheap des keyseach machine \( corporate acceptance wiretap chip \) originator gtoal pizzabox demon co uk nntp posting host pizzabox demon co uk reply graham toal gtoal gtoal com organization cuddlehogs anonymous lines 9 article 1993apr20 192105 11751 ulysses att com smb research att com \( steven bellovin \) writes thousands \? tens thousands \? arithmetic , please skipjack 2 80 possible keys n't yet know 80 bits count anyway , looking like keys escrow arrangements smoke mirrors cover way nsa key transmitted serial number g
olson umbc edu \( bryan olson \) subject wh proposal police point view organization university maryland , baltimore county campus lines 30 distribution world nntp posting host umbc7 umbc edu x auth user olson article 1993apr18 news clarkson edu , tuinstra sunspot ece clarkson edu soe \( dwight tuinstra \) writes might pay start looking proposal might mean police agency might bad idea , ok , suppose ny state police want tap suspect 's phone need warrant , like old days unlike old days , need \( \) get two federal agencies give two parts key , happens 's tiff two escrow houses \? posession release keys becomes political bargaining chit think unrealistic suppose federal agencies fail promptly comply court order , still good point local law enforcement unable perform wiretap without bringing federal agencies based \( possibly incomplete \) understanding system quoted denning , fbi able decrypt system key encryption layer , seems needed even identify escrowed keys request moves great deal law enforcement power federal level reason like point may sway even persuade people n't generally line civil liberties crowd national police force opposed people broad range political viewpoints olson umbc edu
steve b access digex com \( steve brinich \) subject tapped , code good organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 6 distribution na nntp posting host access digex net matter , n't difficult design black box gives emr similar monitor gibberish screen
rdippold qualcomm com \( ron asbestos dippold \) subject tapped , code good originator rdippold qualcom qualcomm com nntp posting host qualcom qualcomm com organization qualcomm , inc , san diego , ca distribution na lines 21 graham toal gtoal gtoal com writes actually , completely baffled dorothy denning chosen throw away academic respectability like looks like major career limiting move people know 's saying take seriously i'm sure major limiting move academic circles 've seen , arguing increased government intervention management almost always plus \( least usually means high paying jobs academics advisors \) also consider looks like denning decent nsa government connections , always plus academic institute wants government funding work tossed way despicable , yes career limiting , well , publicity probably outweighs drawbacks whole bunch people think whole thing keen 's going used drug dealers , child pornographers , terrorists , well must good p truth hard find harder obscure
steve b access digex com \( steve brinich \) subject clipper considered harmful organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 42 distribution inet nntp posting host access digex net criminals badly want inscrutable tactical communications \( specifically terrorists drug dealers proponents key escrow cite threats \) highly motivated steal cipher phone legitimate user , kill person hold hostage discovery compromise device delayed rough manner \? much professional steal chip phone even replace pin compatible nothing chip encrypt chances victim notice anything , especially done professionally assuming bad guys easily obtain substitute chips n't cause noticeable effect either user person end line \( significant difficulty obtaining chips , criminals decide fall back murder method \) suitable collection devices stolen , criminals communicate impunity \( assuming cipher system carries trapdoors apart key escrow \) unless compromise discovered means , feds still able decrypt conversations true , 'll blame wrong guys , nevertheless one cannot say something like drugs arrive tommorrow ship feds listening , even cannot identify speaker assumes feds tapping clipper phones belonging ordinary citizens \( getting phone whole point crime discussion \) sure , would n't put past raising possibility crime benefit forcing feds either intentions advance state using clipper exposes user additional criminal threat g , criminals use secure encryption new proposal stop criminals ensures government able wiretap average citizen stops casual snooper , also clearly looks step towards outlawing strong encryption devices agreed
amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) subject secret algorithm clipper chip crypto key escrow organization intercon systems corporation herndon , va usa lines 11 distribution world reply amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) nntp posting host chaos intercon com x newsreader intercon tcp connect ii 1 1 pdc dcs ed ac uk \( paul crowley \) writes cleaners , 'll stick damn carpet nah nothing sucks like vax \) amanda walker intercon systems corporation
steve b access digex com \( steve brinich \) subject tapped , code good organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 5 distribution na nntp posting host access digex net wonder landed fat fee cooperation nsa design propoganda stages n't care \? say nsa totally , least redeeming virtue taking care \? g
rlglende netcom com \( robert lewis glendenning \) subject estimating wiretap costs benefits organization netcom online communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 61 article 1993apr20 kronos arc nasa gov hanson kronos arc nasa gov \( robin hanson \) writes i'm attempting write serious policy paper examining whether proposed wiretap \( clipper \) chip cost effective tool police investigation , ignoring concerns government intrusions individual privacy , value easy wiretaps investigators greater cost communications industry , customers , support wiretap technology \? rough estimate suggests wiretaps worth five million dollars per year u law enforcement agencies \( 1990 , 872 u wiretaps led 2057 arrests , total police expenditures 28 billion led 11 25 million arrests ref us statistical abstracts \) i'm working estimating wiretap benefit accurately , 'd like ask hardware experts help estimating costs new proposed wiretap technology please send estimates many chips would need made per year keep phones wiretap chips \? much would cost make chip \? much cost develop technology first place \? much would supporting hardware , people , etc cost , per chip \? percentage cheaper would encryption chips support private enterprise could compete meet customer encryption needs \? percentage phone traffic would taken proposed law enforcement blocks \? total cost handling phone traffic per year \? put another way , question i'm asking , police agency wanted particular wiretap pay , charged share full social cost forcing communication wiretap compatible \? would choose buy wiretaps , would find cost effective instead investigate crimes ways \? robin hanson hanson ptolemy arc nasa gov 415 604 ms 269 2 , nasa ames research center , moffett field , ca 94035 510 651 male terrace , fremont , ca 94539 first , fuck nasa wasting tax dollars policy papers stuff far outside mission \? second , n't problem economics problem incremental accumulation police state powers government , exactly , put price loss freedom society \? maybe use dollars life lost calculations extra people killed gov pain suffering cases tortured dollars life lost caused inevitable collapse economy , secondary effects diseases , diet , etc plus , inevitable collapse economy gov controls , becomes corrupt , etc us favor resign rather right paper nasa go useful work society lew lew glendenning rlglende netcom com perspective worth 80 iq points niels bohr \( somebody like \)
boucher csl sri com \( peter k boucher \) subject pseudo random character generators \( large state \) organization utexas mail news gateway lines 171 nntp posting host cs utexas edu four pseudo random character generators , based trinomials contains 16 separate trinomials , one selected initialization \( 64 distinct trinomials 4 \) initialized 32 bit seed , 4 bit selector would like get comments anyone interested enough look please email , news fritz \( note posted via email \) peter k boucher boucher csl sri com clip clip begin 660 rnd tar z b \( ! , j7 , ' 1 , j ab ! d' ! c ! lb ' g n , si r \? 0 \( , c2 \) , \( \( 6 jt , b 2 gc , w 4 , 01 f ! z9 2 m3 pp \( 5 12 \) 0 , b \) ls 00 4z \( rx j \( f bk k \( v a6 , 04 2 l9 3 \) dy \( fv h \) , ' msf ! 9g ! 7 \( v \( ! , r 36 , 8 ! , , w 185 l 6 'b mo k7 dl w \( 27 , 0p 77 gp \) 48 7 , ap 'a \? 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shirriff sprite berkeley edu \( ken shirriff \) subject clipper considered harmful organization university california , berkeley lines 24 distribution inet nntp posting host berkeley edu article optilink com brad optilink com \( brad yearwood \) writes finally , essentially possibility intercepting realtime content communications stolen instruments , exist strong motivation record archive communications network ex post facto scrutiny \( criminal act discovered , instruments involved identified \) seems likely large subset encrypted communications would archived tape could read sometime future probable cause arises warrant obtained even imagine found legal constitutional , since nothing actually listened valid warrant issued keys obtained imagine archiving pay phone conversations , someone turns drug dealer , listen past drug deals archive calls suspected mafia members , potential terrorists , radicals , etc imagine convenience police able get warrant listening calls world trade center bombers made past year since archiving would powerful tool easy , would n't happen \? ken shirriff shirriff sprite berkeley edu
sommerfeld apollo hp com \( bill sommerfeld \) subject little political philosophy worth reading lines 66 nntp posting host ch apollo hp com organization hewlett packard read twice replace prince government president , appropriate , read chapter xx prince , n , translated daniel order keep lands secure , princes disarmed subjects others prompted division within cities others sought win approval initially erected others destroyed , although impossible set definite judgements measures without considering particular circumstances states may employed , shall nevertheless discuss broad terms subject allow begin , never case new prince disarming subjects indeed , whenever found disarmed , proceeded arm arming subjects , make arms among suspicious become loyal , already loyal remain , subjects transformed though cannot arm , nonetheless increase safety among leave unarmed extending privileges arm different treatment two categories make latter feel obligated , former consider proper assume added duties dangers receive advantages disarm subjects , however , offend , showing , either lack faith , distrust either conclusion induce hate moreover , since impossible remain unarmed , would resort mercenaries , whose limitations already discussed even troops good , however , could never good enough defend powerful enemies , doubtful subjects therefore , said , new prince newly acquired state always taken measures arm subjects , history full examples proving prince takes posession new state addition original domain , must disarm subjects new state except helped acquire , time occasion permit , must seek render soft weak must arrange matters way arms entire state hands soldiers native original domain since subject demands , fail remind prince acquired new state aid inhabitants soundly consider induced assist reason natural , rather former government , find extremely difficult keep friendly , impossible please carefully think matter light examples drawn ancient modern affairs , understand much easier win favor happy former government , hence enemies , keep favor , former rule , helped replace
c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu \( john kelsey \) subject large commercial keys \? nntp posting host mizzou1 missouri edu organization university missouri lines 20 article 1993apr20 ee eng ohio state edu butzerd maumee eng ohio state edu \( dane c butzer \) writes finally , anyone even time place 128 bit keys n't sufficient \? \( certainly ca n't even trillion keys second , would take 10 billion years search one keys space \) depends attack adding bit key doubles amount work done straight brute force attack , try every single possible key one works processing storage requirements kind attack 128 bit key seem like ought make effectively impossible however , may attacks whose difficulty \( example \) proportional , say , 2 sqrt \( n \) , also , long key little good way incrementally guess little key time thanks , dane john
andersom spot colorado edu \( marc anderson \) subject tapped , code good nntp posting host spot colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder distribution na lines 59 article rdippold qualcom rdippold qualcomm com \( ron asbestos dippold \) writes geoff ficus cs ucla edu \( geoffrey kuenning \) writes bullshit bush administration career gestapo responsible horror , presented new presidency fait accompli n't excuse clinton gore criticism stupid go , let 's lay body proper door start final stages denial hardly imagine result would clinton administration actually supported plan , instead merely 've obviously n't believe chip originated clinton administration either , clinton administration embraced brought fruition \( date 1 26 93 \) note clinton 's statements encryption 3rd paragraph guess statement n't contradict said , though cut washington \( upi \) war drugs get fresh start , president clinton told delegates national federation police convention washington first speech drug issue since , clinton said planned escalation drug war make everything far seem half hearted practical purposes war beginning '' repeatedly emphasized view tried , tried , long 've trying , day one '' audience convention , whose theme spell fiscal relief \? f r f e u r e , '' interrupted clinton frequently applause clinton 's program , presented speech , follows outline given campaign position papers cabinet level drug czar first time offenders , however , cover detail plans improved enforcement methods ``this year 's crime bill teeth , bare gums , '' clinton said particular , administration place strict controls data formats protocols , require registration called keys , '' hope denying drug dealers ability communicate secret clinton said approach could used forms underground economic activity , ``the deficit causing tax live luxury expense grandchildren '' clinton expressed optimism drug war even though everyone voted bill clinton last november , everyone vote candidate shares sense urgency fighting drug menace advocates legalization advocates surrender may good making noise , '' clinton said american people cast ballots , proved knew along advocates surrender nothing microscopic fringe ''
strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) subject escrow database organization dsi uscrpac lines 17 article netcom com tcmay netcom com \( timothy c may \) writes waco massacre big brother wiretap chip , tactic fair pernicious nonsense ! david david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted
strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) subject would clipper make good cover encryption method \? organization dsi uscrpac lines 17 article 1993apr20 032623 3046 eff org kadie eff org \( carl kadie \) writes , n't think replacements clipper , also think front ends makes sense government prohibits alternative non escrowed encryption schemes otherwise , use front end without clipper \? david david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted
pla sktb demon co uk \( paul l allen \) subject secret algorithm clipper chip crypto key escrow reply pla sktb demon co uk organization chaos lines 70 x newsreader archimedes begin pgp signed message message pizzabox demon co uk write cops feds need able get hold private key listen cellular conversations encryption end end , cellphone base station true uk paul , i'm fairly sure 're talking building end end encryption phones chip 's cellular \( though certainly could used way suggest \) 'd lost white house 's posted \( 's happens read news home 're rat \) , bunch follow ups going cellular cordless comms original article , president today announced new initiative bring federal government together industry voluntary program improve security privacy telephone communications meeting legitimate needs law enforcement hmm , telephone communications could indeed include end end encryption ordinary initiative involve creation new products accelerate development use advanced secure telecommunications networks wireless communications links next paragraph says networks wireless communications links ok , 's far clear exactly cripple \( anagram \) applied , reason joe public wants secure comms stop people listening cellular cordless phones \( would n't even bothered 's \) yes , cripple might end end , dropping clear end n't cripple cordless ordinary conversation would clear leaving cordless end vulnerable present nope , suspect cripple used radio links ok , 's possible could mean phone , i'm betting means microwave links used apologies i'm wrong , particularly press release makes clear i'm wrong missed , far see full obfuscation , anyone expecting end end encryption surprise \( imho \) btw , graham , 've posted questions alt security pgp seen replies followups outside europe \? made everyone 's kill file , problem \? paul begin pgp signature version 2 2 end pgp signature
pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) subject text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption distribution na organization totally unorganized lines 281 article 1993apr19 afterlife ncsc mil rlward1 afterlife ncsc mil \( robert ward \) writes article bontchev 734981805 fbihh bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de writes since us constitutions guarantees right every american bear arms , every american entitled , matter read applicable part constitution interpreted context \? , please posting misinterpretation refers right people organize militia , individuals carry handguns , grenades , assault rifles read , apply gave previous poster , well first clause condition , reason explicitly supporting right exists , militia , people right keep bear arms right granted constitution , right presumed exist default constitution mentioning right prevent government removing right stating clearly government shall infringe \( mess , block , limit \) right remember constitution bunch negative things things government cannot rights , etc given government go states people \( people 9 amendments bill rights talk \) since sure summarily reject interpretation , linguistic analysis one far expert \( , suspect \) sure find qualifications adequate n't enough send senate judiciary constitution report thing things big brother types , like biden , etc must really swallow hard admit think find people seriously study constitution state means say thing come 'new improved trying subvert constitution given agenda like clinton clinton cripple , gun control , people control , control control , whole nasty mess please tell us person error , wo n't \? \( please back proof , since backing assertion independent proof , bunch provide \) note followups set talk politics guns begin included article unabridged second amendment j neil schulman wanted know big bang , 'd ring carl sagan , right \? wanted know desert warfare , man call would norman , question would call wanted top expert american usage , tell meaning second amendment united states constitution \? question asked c brocki , editorial coordinator los angeles unified school district formerly senior editor houghton publishers recommended foremost expert english usage los angeles school system mr brocki told get touch roy copperud , retired professor journalism university southern california author american usage style consensus little research lent support brocki 's opinion professor copperud 's expertise roy copperud newspaper writer major three decades distinguished 17 year career teaching journalism usc since 1952 , copperud writing column dealing professional aspects journalism editor publisher , weekly magazine focusing journalism field 's usage panel american heritage dictionary , merriam webster 's usage dictionary frequently cites expert copperud 's fifth book usage , american usage style consensus , continuous print van since 1981 , winner association american publisher 's humanities award sounds like expert brief telephone call professor copperud introduced give indication interested , sent following letter writing ask professional opinion expert english usage , analyze text second amendment united states constitution , extract intent text text second amendment , 'a well regulated militia , necessary security free state , right people keep bear arms , shall infringed ' debate amendment whether first part sentence , 'a well regulated militia , necessary security free , restrictive clause subordinate clause , respect independent clause containing subject sentence , 'the right people keep bear arms , shall infringed ' would request analysis sentence take consideration issues political impact public policy , restricted entirely linguistic analysis meaning intent , since professional analysis likely become part litigation regarding consequences second amendment , ask whatever analysis make professional opinion would willing stand behind reputation , even willing testify oath support , necessary letter framed several questions test second amendment , concluded realize asking take major responsibility task letter , citizen , believe important extract actual meaning second amendment ask analysis affected political importance results , ask importance several letters phone calls , discussed terms analysis , never discussed either opinions regarding second amendment , gun control , political subject , professor copperud sent follow analysis \( inserted questions sake clarity \) copperud words 'a well regulated militia , necessary security free state , ' contrary interpretation cited letter july 26 , 1991 , constitutes present , rather clause used adjective , modifying , ' followed main clause sentence \( subject 'the right' , verb \) keep bear arms asserted essential maintaining militia reply numbered questions schulman \( 1 \) sentence interpreted grant right keep bear arms solely 'a well regulated \? copperud \( 1 \) sentence restrict right keep bear arms , state imply possession right elsewhere others people simply makes positive statement respect right people schulman \( 2 \) 'the right people keep bear granted words second amendment , second amendment assume right people keep bear arms , merely state right \? copperud \( 2 \) right granted amendment existence assumed thrust sentence right shall preserved inviolate sake ensuring militia schulman \( 3 \) right people keep bear arms conditioned upon whether well regulated militia , , fact necessary security free state , condition existing , statement 'the right people keep bear arms , shall null void \? copperud \( 3 \) condition expressed implied right keep bear arms said amendment depend existence militia condition stated implied relation right keep bear arms necessity well regulated militia requisite security free state right keep bear arms deemed unconditional entire sentence schulman \( 4 \) clause 'a well regulated militia , necessary security free state , ' grant right government place conditions 'right people keep bear arms , ' right deemed unconditional meaning entire sentence \? copperud \( 4 \) right assumed exist unconditional , previously stated invoked specifically sake militia schulman \( 5 \) following phrase 'well regulated mean 'well , 'well organized , ' 'well drilled , ' 'well educated , ' regulations superior \? copperud \( 5 \) phrase means regulations superior authority ' accords desire writers civilian control military schulman \( 6 \) \( possible , would ask take account changed meanings words , usage , since sentence written 200 years ago , take account historical interpretations intents authors , unless issues clearly separated copperud best knowledge , change meaning words usage would affect meaning amendment written today , might put since well regulated militia necessary tot security free state , right people keep bear arms shall abridged ' schulman 'scientific control' analysis , would also appreciate could compare analysis text second amendment following sentence , well schooled electorate , necessary security free state , right people keep read books , shall infringed ' questions usage analysis sentence would , \( 1 \) grammatical structure usage sentence way words modify , identical second amendment 's sentence \? \( 2 \) could sentence interpreted restrict 'the right people keep read 'a well educated example , registered voters high school diploma \? copperud \( 1 \) 'scientific control' sentence precisely parallels amendment grammatical structure \( 2 \) nothing sentence either indicates implies possibility restricted interpretation professor copperud one additional comment , placed cover letter well known human curiosity , made speculative efforts decide material might used , unable reach conclusion told one top experts american usage many knew along constitution united states unconditionally protects people 's right keep bear arms , forbidding governments formed constitution abridging right write , attempted coup constitutional government soviet union failed , apparently people part world free tyranny stronger old guard 's desire maintain monopoly power united states , elected lawmakers , judges , appointed officials pledged defend constitution united states ignore , , second amendment routinely american citizens put american prisons carrying arms , owning arms forbidden sorts , failing satisfy bureaucratic requirements regarding owning carrying firearms unconditional right people keep bear arms , guaranteed constitution even american civil liberties union \( aclu \) , staunch defender rest bill rights , stands nothing seems believe right keep bear arms preserve right one else one else beg elected representatives take away rights , continue regarding representing us \? continue obeying judges decide second amendment n't mean says means means whatever say means doublespeak \? simply keep bear arms choice , constitution united states promises us , pledge defend promise lives , , sacred honor \? \( c \) 1991 new gun week second amendment foundation informational reproduction entire article hereby authorized provided author , new gun week second amendment foundation credited rights reserved author j neil schulman award winning author novels endorsed anthony nobel economist milton friedman , writer cbs twilight zone episode time traveling historian prevents jfk assassination 's also founder president publishing , first publishing company distribute books via personal computers modems recently , schulman founded committee enforce second amendment \( \) , intends see individual 's right keep bear arms recognized constitutional protection equal afforded first , fourth , fifth , ninth fourteenth amendments end included article still honestly say second 'state run militia right' \? pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc 1 207 \( pat myrto \) seattle , wa else fails , try ! uunet ! pilchuck ! rwing ! pat wisdom two things infinite universe human stupidity , sure former albert einstien
pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) subject text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption distribution na organization totally unorganized lines 95 article bontchev fbihh bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de writes rlward1 afterlife ncsc mil \( robert ward \) writes since us constitutions guarantees right every american bear arms , every american entitled , matter read applicable part constitution interpreted context \? yes btw , appropriate amendments posted time ago , please posting misinterpretation refers right people organize militia , individual carry handguns , grenades , assault rifles 's ok , 's ok month ago expressed belief right means shoot neighbor much necessary ensure people 's right free got flamed lots american gun supporters thought never mind new cripple chip purely american problem , deal mess wanted share bit experience living 30 years totalitarian regime \( i'm bulgarian \) thought might useful oh well think experiences bulgarian regime highly relevant many people heads sand saying cannot happen , constitutional rights trashed every day government justifies end run around protections requiring likely future possession secure encryption tools regarded possession 'terrorist drug dealers tools' , serious felony like common tools tools' police say , common computer programs \( even computers \) tools' , become 'terrorist tools' bet insights someone lived throught important us goes way old soviet union client states far individual rights , privacy overall freedom concerned , rest world \( remember 'new world \? \) far behind years please keep posting anything find deficient threatens ones rights thing example , conversation suspect lawyer longer private big brother eavesdropping political dissent allready dangerous country , takes government decide enough people take one seriously , one becomes guilty overthrow government illegal phrase defined whatever government wants defined couple clinton 's pressing national id card \( \? \) , added anything past put , take government 's word really \( since ones means completely read thing \) n't nice \? feds bust one 's safe without keys , owner knows safe broken break phone conversations \( stored transmitted data near future \) way knowing , accountability legalities gone window like safe , legal cause , get keys suspect , like get keys safe combination suspect encryption record everything , get warrants , decode keys obtained suspect clinton cripple , along natural extensions , make communications client lawyer , meaningful political dissent virtually impossible general idea propeganda secure , safeguards , propeganda reassure people big brother listening ! ! ! regards , vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center , university hamburg tel 49 40 54715 224 , fax 49 40 54715 226 fachbereich informatik agn pgp 2 2 public key available request vogt koelln strasse 30 , rm 107 c e mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de 2000 hamburg 54 , germany pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc 1 207 \( pat myrto \) seattle , wa else fails , try ! uunet ! pilchuck ! rwing ! pat wisdom two things infinite universe human stupidity , sure former albert einstien
pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) subject open letter mr clinton organization totally unorganized lines 48 article bontchev fbihh bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de writes strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes 's simple way convert clipper proposal unexceptionable one make voluntary usually , reading proposal say voluntary program n't make desirable , though get high quality secure nsa classified technology agree escrow key otherwise secure \? know \? nsa trying make believe \? trust us yeah , right otherwise \? know tomorrow outlaw devices n't use technology \? promising \? gee , even read proposal one minor proposal decision point view done deal chips manufactured , obviously budgeted , whole thing upsetting done secret want people know going late otherwise , agree 100 percent come always takes someone lived eastern bloc remind us precious fragile liberties \? please , keep good work hopefully wake someone regards , vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center , university hamburg tel 49 40 54715 224 , fax 49 40 54715 226 fachbereich informatik agn pgp 2 2 public key available request vogt koelln strasse 30 , rm 107 c e mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de 2000 hamburg 54 , germany pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc 1 207 \( pat myrto \) seattle , wa else fails , try ! uunet ! pilchuck ! rwing ! pat wisdom two things infinite universe human stupidity , sure former albert einstien
strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) subject screw people , crypto hard core hackers spooks organization dsi uscrpac lines 25 article agora rain com jhart agora rain com \( jim hart \) writes need true privacy chip example , real time voice encryption rsa , silicon compile spit asic put chip market de facto standard international business , diplomats , private communications u bans , make somewhere else import japanese , german , dutch , taiwanese , korean , etc electronics companies n't want nsa spying u workers lose jobs government fascist stupidity countries laws importing crypto gear believe u without license scheme wo n't work \( least legally \) countries , including least france u david david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted
strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) subject would clipper make good cover encryption method \? organization dsi uscrpac lines 35 article eachus spectre mitre org eachus spectre mitre org \( robert eachus \) writes , making custom equipment case , roll clipper implementation report wrong keys escrow agency \? \( tells us going chip business thing goes nsa , something hide nsa \) wo n't work checksum keys n't know neither registering clipper chip substituting counterfeit one serial number contains checksum chances government thought , anyone wo n't permitted access enough internals make fake clipper chip chances government classified details internals high level , manufacturers required observe security safeguards clearances corresponding level perfect , would prevent joe hacker rolling spoofing chip , since many survive background investigation notorious self styled dissidents , example , already got heads high tall grass 'd little chance getting clearance course 's impossible someone , probably extremely difficult chances also heavy criminal penalties phony clipper chips , national security classified info grounds , thus making game worth candle david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted
strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) subject screw people , crypto hard core hackers spooks organization dsi uscrpac lines 39 article warlord mit edu warlord mit edu \( derek atkins \) writes point specific instance wiretap chip rather , like government telling want copy house key , safe deposit box keys , etc , telling wont use unless totally neccessary sure would n't want encryption different \? actually telling want use product manufacturer \( actually better yet , trusted pair escrow agencies \) key us already situation car makers keys cars \( get quickly vin number \) , doubt presented court order , 'd surrender copies government chances many code numbers house locks 've installed , emergency cut keys thus 'd also provide keys government pursuant court order state difficulty gaining access safe deposit box court order bad analogy argue proposal , rather better distinctions required thinking house key , safe deposit keys , etc david david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted
subject organized lobbying cryptography kubo zariski harvard edu \( tal kubo \) organization dept math , harvard univ nntp posting host zariski harvard edu lines 55 article 03 silverton berkeley edu djb silverton berkeley edu \( j bernstein \) writes want see organization combat statements encryption threaten public safety , ski masks every american entitled use strong encryption ensures privacy crippled key escrow system guess i'm looking cryptographic freedom '' cryptography association '' excellent idea extent eff serve purpose \? new organization necessary \? already exist \? n't know full scope activities eff , little 've seen think would better lobby strong cryptography distinct organization eff associated efforts prevent banning sex pictures newsgroups various universities horror stories contents groups \( e g pictures possibly models \) already surfaced press white house bulletin already raised specter drug dealing terrorism , one step removed old crypto wielding child molester argument eff lobbying effort cryptography would easily connection child pornography like similarly , lpf connected gnu project light , say , gnu , means public debate stands labelled communist , anarchist hackers , radical , etc n't know cpsr , offshoot physicians social responsibility \( best known helen hysterical lobbying \) probably also carries unwelcome political baggage perhaps practical reasons lobbying organization cryptography would best formed umbrella eff existing group , charter distinct , independent , limited advocacy right cryptography reiterate dan bernstein 's question suitable organization exist \? , going \? mentioned possible dangers unwelcome political associations , would remiss suggest something opposite direction gathering support nra emphasizing rkba side issue well first amendment side tal kubo math harvard edu
pmetzger snark shearson com \( perry e metzger \) subject need clipper cheap security \? organization partnership america free drug lines 17 gtoal gtoal com \( graham toal \) writes uk , 's impossible get approval attach crypto device phone network \( anything plugs bt phone sockets must approved reason crypto devices never \) whats difference v 32bis modem v 32bis modem \? i'm entirely silly i'm pointing modems already approved data transmission work fine transmit scrambled voice perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire , laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
smk5 quads uchicago edu \( steve kramarsky \) subject hard drive security fbi targets keywords cooperation reply smk5 midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 34 article yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu \( douglas craig holland \) writes i'm lawyer , correct i'm wrong , could considered obstruction justice , could land prison quite thing 's great secret key idea encrypted , even fbi get key , 're sol unless know magic word try force give pass phrase , say oops , forgot since burden proof still prosecution country , keep mouth shut , prove n't forget pass phrase ok , doug right , would obstruction justice , blah blah blah , , saying forgot lie , bad moral point view think good \( admittedly people \) 's even better way provided government prosecuting criminally , probably plead fifth thus legally avoid revealing key government cannot demand information criminal defendant may tend incriminate defendant though never applied cryptography context \( least far tell \) seems obvious application may common suggestion group , 's \( i'm new \) 'd love hear people say since n't really read group \( since subject matter legal \) maybe misc legal computing would appropriate place \? steve steve kramarsky , university chicago law school steve chi il us smk5 quads uchicago edu kiss girl jake , night hanging
tedwards eng umd edu \( thomas grant edwards \) subject tapped , code good organization project glue , university maryland , college park lines 25 distribution na nntp posting host src umd edu article dns1 nmsu edu amolitor nmsu edu \( andrew molitor \) writes article c5so84 hxv demon co uk graham toal gtoal gtoal com writes actually , completely baffled dorothy denning chosen throw away academic respectability like actually , 've following remarks time , interest i'm also member academia , remarks nothing elevate respectability eyes remains seen whether radical fringe , generally error assume beliefs held majority , even sizable minority especially 're seeing tens , nay dozens , people usenet agreeing people usenet clearly special bunch live net , future culture rapid electronic access information society general must depend cnn hope make information accessable public radical fringe , majority , destroys fabric country freedom never easily thomas
smk5 quads uchicago edu \( steve kramarsky \) subject keeping mouth shut \( hard drive security \) keywords cooperation reply smk5 midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 43 article 1993apr14 qualcomm com karn servo qualcomm com \( phil karn \) writes say theory another case , woman held contempt refusing reveal location child even taking 5th case , woman suspected murdered kid , taking 5th n't surprising sure , probably guilty , 's good enough system 're supposed able force suspect confess crime , matter strongly think 're guilty develop evidence independently otherwise might catch crooks , cost turning clock back middle ages , confessions routinely tortured suspects guilty innocent ok , read thread posting 0 02 would add phil 's discussion following caveat fifth amendment applies cases \( shall person compelled criminal case witness \) thus father sued custody children , case would civil defendant mother would fifth amendment protection oddly enough , refusal give information civil case lead criminal contempt charges \( thus landing jail \) interesting part murder trial , woman plead fifth location child routine computer crime prosecution thus would seem fertile ground kind defense , suit party injured hackers would accused , example , sending encrypted kiddie porn nets fifth protect key accused sending copyrighted material , however , \( copyright infringement crime technical sense \) really tricky question , say \( naughty boy \) government use information gained civil trial \( ie key \) gain access files use criminal prosecution answer certainly , lord knows would work steve steve kramarsky , university chicago law school steve chi il us smk5 quads uchicago edu kiss girl jake , night hanging
subject n't fight clipper chip , subvert replace ! steiner jupiter cse utoledo edu \( jason 'think ! ' steiner \) distribution na nntp posting host jupiter cse utoledo edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 25 marc thibault \( marc tanda isis org \) writes \( jester \) writes proof windows virus widespread , eats disk space , slows computer , takes control computer , performs disk access random times , displays silly messages screen , randomly crashes computer vesselin sounds like version unix solaris \? someone lived switch sunos4 x x solaris , 'll heartily agree one main gripes solaris braindead mailx , almost enough like mail get hoping , crashes horribly try anything useful \( like use pgp capable sendmail replacements \) jason stood van yelled , , sir ai n't nothing wrong country plastic explosives wo n't cure ! ' steve taylor , blew clinic real good ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` steiner jupiter cse utoledo edu ` , ` , ` , `
smk5 quads uchicago edu \( steve kramarsky \) subject fifth amendment passwords reply smk5 midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 23 article 1993apr17 sugra uucp ken sugra uucp \( kenneth ng \) writes article 1993apr16 linus mitre org ptrei bistromath mitre org \( peter trei \) writes judge grant immunity whatever may learned key keyphrase confess deliberately evading copyright file encoded keyphrase contains illegal scans copyrighted peanuts strips use murder instead copyright violation , keep things straight \? 5th applies criminal cases copyright \( civil \) steve p i'm sorry waste bandwidth quibble , n't want anyone get confused think bunch kiddie porn gifs make better test case bunch peanuts strips criminal posession distribution steve kramarsky , university chicago law school steve chi il us smk5 quads uchicago edu kiss girl jake , night hanging
kadie cs uiuc edu \( carl kadie \) subject organized lobbying cryptography organization university illinois , dept comp sci , urbana , il lines 18 kubo zariski harvard edu \( tal kubo \) writes eff associated efforts prevent banning sex pictures newsgroups various universities \? william brennan , marshall , john paul stevens , byron white associated plurality supreme court decision prevented removal anti american , anti christian , anti semitic , plain filthy books public high school library board education v \( 1982 \) mean could longer defend free expression privacy \? carl carl kadie represent organization kadie cs uiuc edu
holthaus news weeg uiowa edu \( james r holthaus \) subject estimating wiretap costs benefits organization university iowa , iowa city , ia , usa lines 27 rlglende netcom com \( robert lewis glendenning \) writes article 1993apr20 kronos arc nasa gov hanson kronos arc nasa gov \( robin hanson \) writes i'm attempting write serious policy paper examining whether proposed wiretap \( clipper \) chip cost effective tool police investigation , ignoring concerns government intrusions individual privacy , value easy wiretaps investigators greater cost communications industry , customers , support wiretap technology \? first , fuck nasa wasting tax dollars policy papers stuff far outside mission \? us favor resign rather right paper nasa go useful work society whew ! take easy guy maybe 's going spare time maybe 's going see much wiretap really costs maybe 's going add opposition clipper n't know fully might , maybe n't start flaming drop hat james holthaus james holthaus uiowa edu government association men violence rest us leo tolstoy pgp 2 2 public key available request key server
bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de \( vesselin bontchev \) subject text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption reply bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de organization virus test center , university hamburg lines 19 mathew mathew mantis co uk writes bena cs monash edu au \( ben \) writes n't forget , country would n't let russians buy apple ii 's security concerns 's nothing would n't let british buy inmos systems security concerns designed damn things ! funny , plenty bulgaria , regardless embargo \) much export controls regards , vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center , university hamburg tel 49 40 54715 224 , fax 49 40 54715 226 fachbereich informatik agn pgp 2 2 public key available request vogt koelln strasse 30 , rm 107 c e mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de 2000 hamburg 54 , germany
holthaus news weeg uiowa edu \( james r holthaus \) subject cryptology world keywords cryptology international restrictions organization university iowa , iowa city , ia , usa lines 10 status private citizens throughout world \? , clearly , listing countries policies citizens encrypting electronic data \? i'm curious europeans handle , instance james holthaus james holthaus uiowa edu government association men violence rest us leo tolstoy pgp 2 2 public key available request key server
tarl coyoacan sw stratus com \( tarl neustaedter \) subject organized lobbying cryptography organization stratus computer , software engineering lines 17 distribution inet nntp posting host coyoacan sw stratus com article lt cs uiuc edu kadie cs uiuc edu \( carl kadie \) writes eff associated efforts prevent banning sex pictures newsgroups various universities \? william brennan , marshall , john paul stevens , byron white associated means eff 's public stance complicated issues irrelevant encryption issue per se may well people care encryption issue n't care associate network erotica issue \( may even disagree eff 's position \) ending pallets baggage drag around frequent problem permanent organizations eff exception tarl
subject looking ms dos crypto programs lure latrobe edu au \( maddison , david \) organization la trobe university x news reader vms news 1 24 lines 11 new reader sci crypt would like obtain copy public domain program encrypt files , preferably using des , runs ms dos would also like obtain program password protect floppy disks , possible thanks david maddison melbourne , australia
oz ursa sis yorku ca \( \) subject list large integer arithmetic packages reply mrr scss3 cl msu edu 's message 20 apr 1993 16 47 03 gmt organization york u student information systems project lines 18 mark riordan writes list large integer arithmetic packages elided thought would note except lenstra 's packages , none large integer packages public domain alternative , straightforward pd implementation 's algorithms may found part arizona 's icon distribution oz , possible make electric oz sis yorku ca anything run slowly tom duff ph 416 736 2100 x
scs lokkur dexter mi us \( steve simmons \) subject shelf cheap des keyseach machine \( corporate acceptance wiretap chip \) organization inland sea lines 17 smb research att com \( steven bellovin \) writes thousands \? tens thousands \? arithmetic , please skipjack 2 80 possible keys let 's assume brute force engine like hypothesized des 1 microsecond per trial , 1 million chips 's 10 12 trials per second , 38 , 000 years 2 80 trials well , maybe get chips running one trial per nanosecond , build machine 10 million chips sure 3 8 years solution normally 'd last argue steve n't read 3 8 years solutions mean , imagine machine 1 trial nanosecond , imagine storage medium could index archive hated , inference , standing north pole good , neil terry pratchett
amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) subject clipper considered harmful organization intercon systems corporation herndon , va usa lines 14 distribution world reply amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) nntp posting host chaos intercon com x newsreader intercon tcp connect ii 1 1 shirriff sprite berkeley edu \( ken shirriff \) writes since archiving would powerful tool easy , would n't happen \? enough seriously , idea much traffic flows us phone system single day \? amanda walker intercon systems corporation
tuinstra signal ece clarkson edu soe \( dwight tuinstra \) subject clipper corrupt cops \( wh proposal police point view \) reply tuinstra signal ece clarkson edu soe organization sun microsystems , inc lines 93 nntp posting host signal ece clarkson edu article fbihh , bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de \( vesselin bontchev \) writes strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes dwight tuinstra posts interesting message comments effects clipper chip state local police actually , reading lines , could good thing civil liberties one respect , since least prevent cowboy cops cowboy state local reading traffic tap illegally instead reading lines , try think little bit ok , 's way difficult , hints indeed , new proposal imposes additional burden local police , badly want tape magic cookie mom telling phone , guess \? propose new technology removed \? implement \? course , wo n't want wait get approval two different agencies decrypt conversation two child molesters , meanwhile two child molesters might molesting child , right \? , way get access keys quickly , right \? like , could copy database , worry warrant later perhaps clearer concise post , 's get posting 1 central point made local state police agencies attempting play rules get warrants , legit escrowed keys , etc , may find mercy bureaucratic inertia agency federal level disagree would assist civil liberties cowboy cops would strong incentive , vesselin points , police agencies go rogue try get keys efficient \( less constitutional \) means notice release said q suppose law enforcement agency conducting wiretap drug smuggling ring intercepts conversation encrypted using device would decipher message \? would obtain legal authorization , normally court order , wiretap first place clear implication legal authorizations court order leaky \? \( knows 's 7 pages authorized nsa \? \) may well arise black market sorts within police agencies , keys traded furthermore , police excellent position carry kind thing without caught already communication infrastructure secure portions laws know , limit citizens' rights access police communications \( use information get \) may difficult prove police misuse fact evidence may evidence broken law throw private , even fewer policy constitutional restrictions also consider mercenaries 've retired intelligence agencies william gibson must loving great story material n't think 'll happen \? well , consider e g michigan state police , generally professional organization , years kept red files thousands suspected commies , knowing full well standards evidence zero people file happened park near place , say , us china people 's friendship rally happening police went around writing license plate numbers happened visiting friend lived near meeting place , well , state police wound filing subversive \( eventually found court ruled carrying nonsense believe thay may destroy tapes well \) even well meaning cops \( i'm sure many \) , strong pressure bend constitutional safeguards n't need assume corrupt unbalanced officers interest enforcing sensible laws , saving lives , protecting property compromises made well meaning officers , facing \( \) moral dilemma clipper make criminals cops want police forces \? dwight tuinstra best tuinstra sandman ece clarkson edu tolerable tuinstrd craft camp clarkson edu homo sapiens planetary cancer \? \? news six
subject tapped , code good rubin dsg4 dse beckman com \( arthur rubin \) rubin dsg4 dse beckman com 1993apr20 magnus acs ohio state edu distribution na organization beckman instruments , inc nntp posting host dsg4 dse beckman com lines 15 1993apr20 magnus acs ohio state edu jebright magnus acs ohio state edu \( james r ebright \) writes article rubin dsg4 dse beckman com \( arthur rubin \) writes would n't trust nsa think would trust president , i'm certain would told crook president richard nixon president \( could easily wrong \) arthur l rubin rubin dsg4 dse beckman com \( work \) beckman instruments brea 216 5888 mcimail com 70707 453 compuserve com arthur pnet01 cts com \( personal \) opinions , represent employer
warlord mit edu \( derek atkins \) subject would clipper make good cover encryption method \? organization massachusetts institute technology lines 37 nntp posting host mit edu reply strnlght netcom com 's message tue , 20 apr 1993 23 52 28 gmt begin pgp signed message article netcom com strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes article 1993apr20 032623 3046 eff org kadie eff org \( carl kadie \) writes , n't think replacements clipper , also think front ends makes sense government prohibits alternative non escrowed encryption schemes otherwise , use front end without clipper \? david david , \( gov't \) already said hope long run derek pgp 2 key available upon request key server pgp public keys toxicwaste mit edu begin pgp signature version 2 2 end pgp signature derek atkins , mit '93 , electrical engineering computer science secretary , mit student information processing board \( sipb \) mit media laboratory , speech research group warlord mit edu pp asel n1nwh
amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) subject would clipper make good cover encryption method \? organization intercon systems corporation herndon , va usa lines 17 distribution world reply amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) nntp posting host chaos intercon com x newsreader intercon tcp connect ii 1 1 strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes chances government thought , anyone wo n't permitted access enough internals make fake clipper chip chips released \( phones , whatever \) , vulnerable inspection observation , grant doubt safeguards chip , nsa monopoly chip , algorithms uses , remain secret long university vlsi lab required equipment , offshore semiconductor manufacturer amanda walker intercon systems corporation
rpi edu \( william smythe \) subject tapped , code good nntp posting host rpi edu organization rensselaer polytechnic institute , troy , ny distribution na lines 29 article dns1 nmsu edu amolitor nmsu edu \( andrew molitor \) writes al escom com \( al donaldson \) writes amolitor nmsu edu \( andrew molitor \) writes appears generic calling upon name anti christ hell , let 's destroy remark let us imagine executive branch actually could extract keys escrow houses without anyone knowing , telling \? dick 80 bits data hell 's gonna \? 1 \) trot around telco say 'we 'd like decrypting uh huh 2 \) break watergate install tap \( people still break , neat , huh \? \) record noise , get executive branch phone decryption box \( huh \? 've got one \? goodness , wait 'til washington post gets hold \) decrypt noise 3 \) likely , stare key , say 'oh , hell 's worth bloody , gives keys fbi \( may give local police request \) simply put clips phone junction box conduct illegal tap decrypt recover tape government best breaking law bill smythe
strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) subject secret source announcement organization dsi uscrpac lines 23 grady netcom com suggests using common restricted distribution private key allow public key system encrypted postings theory work fine long key remains secure practice would good idea check see would violation net rule , practice , custom , etc n't say would , would good idea check like rot13 everybody key trivially would also good idea check see posts would forwarded sites needed make chain work course 'd problem discussion group travelling facilities entirely control members probably would also problem mailing list approach might even fun david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted
strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) subject tapped , code good organization dsi uscrpac distribution na lines 26 article elee9sf menudo menudo uh edu elee9sf menudo menudo uh edu \( karl barrus \) writes would trust black box nsa versus open system elsewhere \? absolutely , assured someone trusted black box secure nothing conceal government , would like sure russian , japanese , french , competitors services ca n't read traffic 'd like sure competitive bid information safe commercial competitors foreign governments would aid believe nsa identical motivations respect activities president many senior government officials made clear share motivations thus 'd trust coincidence interests argument well basic trust professionalism high confidence skills david david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted
c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu \( john kelsey \) subject 80 bit keyseach machine nntp posting host mizzou1 missouri edu organization university missouri lines 26 article 1993apr21 001230 26384 lokkur dexter mi us scs lokkur dexter mi us \( steve simmons \) writes normally 'd last argue steve n't read 3 8 years solutions mean , imagine machine 1 trial nanosecond , imagine storage medium could index archive hmmmm think , really large like , need alter strategy discussed des attempt decryption several blocks , check contents n't think 's feasible keep 2 80 encryptions known plaintext block amount tape cd rom certainly 2 128 encrypted blocks \( anyone know cheap way converting every atom solar system one bit storage device \? \) actually , keysearch kind n't much worse simpler kind terms speed 's every encrypted message dumb question anyone ever done serious research many legitimate ascii encoded 8 byte blocks could part english sentence \? attacking des ecb mode , seems like dictionary kind might pretty valuable john kelsey
strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) subject fighting clipper initiative organization dsi uscrpac lines 32 article access digex net steve b access digex com \( steve brinich \) writes 1 american manufacturers cripple chips secret untested algorithm whose keys held people history untrustworthy behavoir , er , excuse since escrow agencies n't yet chosen , say history untrustworthy behavoir sic \? i'm sure us think agencies without history price kept secret academy awards many years , even face aggressive press federal reserve open market committee successfully kept decisions leaking statutory period publication even department agriculture successfully kept crop leaking prematurely frankly , 'd trust \( , course since might subject political pressure \) far sooner aclu , eff , cpsr , though exactly government apologists , particular track record internal security know david david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted
jebright magnus acs ohio state edu \( james r ebright \) subject 80 bit keyseach machine nntp posting host top magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 47 article c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu c445585 mizzou1 missouri edu \( john kelsey \) writes article 1993apr21 001230 26384 lokkur dexter mi us scs lokkur dexter mi us \( steve simmons \) writes normally 'd last argue steve n't read 3 8 years solutions mean , imagine machine 1 trial nanosecond , imagine storage medium could index archive hmmmm think , really large like , need alter strategy discussed des attempt decryption several blocks , check contents n't think 's feasible keep 2 80 encryptions known plaintext block amount tape cd rom certainly 2 128 encrypted blocks \( anyone know cheap way converting every atom solar system one bit storage device \? \) n't claim crypto n't whole lot good literature subject , best people n't seem publish work \) rather doubt approach folks use brute force \( sorry implied previous post \) history things folks find clever ways limiting search bang guess real problem skipjack believe nsa would make publicly available system could n't break wanted n't charter remember des came ibm , nsa , first published , given useful life 20 years think well past point \( remember , based size nsa budget , spend lot technology decryption computer companies spend r imagine stuff real interesting friend worked \( dead \) said always enjoyed monitoring sac 's \( strategic air command \) crypto traffic \) rather suspect stuff bit complex skipjack \( military got stuff nsa like get skipjack \) btw , folks , nsa n't given keys walker spy case shows systems , kgb n't need either information farming addr phone finger ohio state university jebright magnus acs ohio state edu \( \( 0 0 \) \) jim ebright e mail jre osu edu support privacy support encryption \( \)
ebrandt jarthur claremont edu \( eli brandt \) subject need clipper cheap security \? organization harvey mudd college , claremont , ca 91711 lines 35 article news intercon com amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) writes one thing clipper offers interoperability , higher degree security currently non proprietary voice encryption systems means cheaper anyone 's proprietary scheme , easier deploy may anarchist nutcase , would n't government proposed secure encryption standard fact , nsa come privacy chip rather wiretap chip , would happy could done set ansi committee , picked secure cryptosystem , defined protocol interface , said , hey , start building instead deliberately brain dead version cryptosystem even peer reviewed yes , nsa owns smart people pulled feal , well , going left lot dud phones hands perry said someone please tell exactly get social contract exchange giving right strong cryptography \? tell exactly given right \? heh heh government already gave us remember announcement described scheme balancing two extremes privacy claiming citizens constitutional right encryption \? much clinton 's support right privacy pgp 2 key finger e mail \( void prohibited \) eli ebrandt jarthur claremont edu
prime com \( jan \) subject clipper chip long follow organization computervision , san diego , ca lines 34 article 1993apr20 1 cc curtin edu au zrepachol cc curtin edu au \( paul repacholi \) writes questions answers clinton administration's telecommunications initiative q suppose law enforcement agency conducting wiretap drug smuggling ring intercepts conversation encrypted using device would decipher message \? would obtain legal authorization , normally court order , wiretap first place would present documentation authorization two entities responsible safeguarding keys obtain keys device used drug smugglers key split two parts , stored separately order ensure security key escrow system apologize dense sentence reads lifted luis missing something \? earth would drug smugglers even use device \? obviously , 'll using something like triple encryption des instead long alternatives clipper remain legal , clipper absolutely nothing , zero , far law enforcement concerned whole scheme absolute , total , incredible , waste government time money long encryption schemes good remain legal order clipper work intended strong cryptosystems outlawed jan computervision , san diego prime com
borut b lavrencic ijs si subject cryptology world reply borut b lavrencic ijs si organization j stefan institute , lj , slovenia lines 25 article 1993apr21 news weeg uiowa edu , holthaus news weeg uiowa edu \( james r holthaus \) writes status private citizens throughout world \? , clearly , listing countries policies citizens encrypting electronic data \? i'm curious europeans handle , instance good question also wanted find ago former communist times activity \( e sending crypto emails \) would prevented sooner ot later , law law law free use ec law protection registration personal files must remember situation small countries vastly different big ones borut b lavrencic , sc x 400 c si mail p ac ijs lavrencic j stefan institute internet borut b lavrencic ijs si university ljubljana , phone 386 1 159 199 si ljubljana , slovenia pgp public key available request
stevew helios unl edu \( steve wu \) subject crypto 93 final call organization university nebraska lincoln lines 258 nntp posting host helios unl edu crypto '93 conference announcement final call papers thirteenth annual crypto conference , sponsored international association cryptologic research \( \) , cooperation ieee computer society technical committee security privacy , computer science department university california , santa barbara , bell northern research \( subsidiary northern telecom \) , held campus university california , santa barbara , august 22 26 , 1993 original research papers technical talks solicited practical theoretical aspects cryptology anticipated talks may also presented special invitation program committee instructions authors authors requested send 12 copies detailed abstract \( full paper \) april 26 , 1993 , program chair address given limit 10 pages type \( counting bibliography title page \) placed submissions submissions must arrive time later april 21 , 1993 sent airmail order receive consideration program committee required submissions start succinct statement problem addressed , solution proposed , significance cryptology , appropriate non specialist reader technical development directed specialist follow needed abstracts submitted conferences proceedings eligible submission submissions must anonymous means names affiliations authors appear title page submission possible remove page send papers program committee members latex style file produces output format available email program chair authors informed acceptance rejection letter mailed june 21 , 1993 compilation accepted abstracts available conference form pre proceedings authors accepted abstracts allowed submit revised versions pre proceedings revised abstract contain minor changes corrections originally submitted abstract revised abstracts must received program chair july 16 , 1993 10 page limit strictly enforced pre proceedings complete conference proceedings expected published springer verlag 's lecture notes computer science series later date , pending negotiation program committee consists \( chair , nebraska \) \( ibm j watson \) e biham \( technion , israel \) e \( sandia national labs \) j feigenbaum \( bell labs \) r \( ucsd \) \( bell labs \) \( ntt , japan \) b \( , germany \) r \( r3 , switzerland \) \( waterloo , canada \) send submissions program chair douglas r , crypto '93 computer science engineering department 115 ferguson hall , university nebraska lincoln , ne usa telephone \( 402 \) 472 fax \( 402 \) 472 internet unl edu information , contact general chair paul c van , crypto '93 bell northern research \( mail stop 000 \) 3500 ave nepean , ontario canada telephone \( 613 \) 763 fax \( 613 \) 763 2626 internet bnr ca crypto '93 general information \( august 22 26 , 1993 \) program thirteenth series workshops cryptology held santa barbara , sponsored international association cryptologic research , cooperation ieee computer society technical committee security privacy , computer science department university california , santa barbara , bell northern research \( subsidiary northern telecom \) program workshop cover aspects cryptology extended abstracts papers presented conference distributed attendees conference , formal proceedings published later date addition regular program papers selected invited program committee , session tuesday evening informal presentations facilities also provided attendees demonstrate hardware , software items cryptographic interest wish demonstrate items , urged contact general chair needs attended social program include hosted cocktail parties sunday monday addition , beach barbecue wednesday evening price barbecue included room board charge , extra tickets may purchased conference facilities workshop held campus university california , santa barbara campus located adjacent santa barbara airport pacific ocean accommodations available university relatively low cost conference participants children age 13 allowed stay , bringing small children need make separate arrangements one several nearby hotels information hotels enclosed parking campus available cost participants however , participants must indicate registration form desire parking permit travel information campus located approximately 2 miles santa barbara airport , served several airlines , including american , america west , delta , united , us air free shuttle bus service provided santa barbara airport campus sunday thursday major rental car agencies also represented santa barbara , rail connections san francisco north los angeles south santa barbara approximately 100 miles north los angeles airport , 350 miles south san francisco registration participation invited interested parties , attendance workshop limited , pre registration strongly advised late , subject late registration fee , may accepted space available , guarantees register , fill attached registration form return address form along payment full july 9 , 1993 campus accommodations available first come , first serve basis attendees register july 9 , 1993 conference fees include participation program social functions , well membership subscription journal cryptology room board charges include dormitory meals dinner sunday lunch thursday technical sessions run monday morning thursday noon limited number available unable obtain funding applications sent general chair june 4 , 1993 crypto '93 crypto '93 registration form registration deadline july 9 , 1993 last name first name sex \( \) \( f \) affiliation mailing address phone fax electronic mail payment conference fee entitles membership international association cryptologic research one year extra charge , including subscription journal cryptology , published springer verlag , extra charge wish member \? yes conference fee also includes conference proceedings become available , containing final versions conference papers book extended abstracts distributed conference contain shortened preliminary versions papers \( maximum 10 pages \) conference fee regular \( 280 \) us attended , norway \( 230 \) full time student \( 190 \) 50 wish proceedings total conference fee us room board \( 4 nights \) smoking non smoking single room \( 275 per person \) double room \( 225 per person \) roommate 's name extra barbecue tickets \( 20 one included room board \) 40 late fee registration july 9 registration guaranteed july 9 total funds enclosed \( u dollars \) us payment must check payable u funds , money order u funds , u bank draft , payable payment mailed general chair paul c van , bell northern research \( mail stop 000 \) 3500 ave nepean , ontario canada crypto '93 hotel information choose stay , following partial list hotels area choose stay campus responsible making reservations , early reservations advised since august popular season santa barbara note closer ucsb santa barbara , car probably required travel hotel campus prices subject change prices confirmed calling individual hotels directly however , mention making reservation several hotels listed eligible university rate significantly less normal rates able block rooms hotels , please make reservations early possible quality hotels range rather expensive beach front resorts basic inexpensive accommodations information , try contacting santa barbara convention visitors center , \( 805 \) 966 south coast inn calle real , , ca 93117 regular rates single 89 , double 94 call university rates contact \( 805 \) 967 3200 toll free \( 800 \) 350 cathedral oaks lodge calle real , santa barbara , 93110 single rates available , double rates start 84 including breakfast university rates call tom patton \( 805 \) 964 3511 toll free \( 800 \) 654 1965 motel 6 calle real , , ca 93117 single 33 95 , double 39 95 , university rate available call \( 505 \) 891 sandman inn state st , santa barbara , ca 93105 regular rates single double 84 , 94 king size , university rate 65 call jean \( 805 \) 687 toll free \( 800 \) 350 hotel \( \) 3 miles south santa barbara u 101 san regular rates 70 135 university rates call \( 805 \) 969 pepper tree inn state st , santa barbara , ca 93105 regular rates 106 112 two people , university rates 96 102 two people call christopher \( 805 \) 687 toll free \( 800 \) 338 lodge 220 bath street , santa barbara , ca 93105 regular rates 106 108 two people , university rates call carol \( 805 \) 682 toll free \( 800 \) 526 quality 5500 ave , santa barbara , ca 93111 \( close campus \) regular rates single 125 , double 145 , university rates 99 double \( must mention attending ucsb program \) call michael ensign \( 805 \) 683 hotel \( bed breakfast \) de la road , santa barbara , ca university rate 85 \( mention crypto \) call sheila \( 805 \) 962 stevew helios unl edu fender smoke water , fire sky smoke water stevew hoss unl edu \( 36 bars guitar solo \) deep purple , best
pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) subject clipper considered harmful organization totally unorganized lines 72 article optilink com brad optilink com \( brad yearwood \) writes clipper comes cellular phones along legal using cipher systems phones , new potentially dangerous class crime created aside possession terrorist tools \( unapproved encryption devices programs \) criminals badly want inscrutable tactical communications \( specifically terrorists drug dealers proponents key escrow cite threats \) highly motivated steal cipher phone legitimate user , kill person hold hostage discovery compromise device delayed suitable collection devices stolen , criminals communicate impunity \( assuming cipher system carries trapdoors apart key escrow \) unless compromise discovered means life cheap criminals currently willing kill people steal large conspicuous property \( luxury cars \) , reasonable assume willing kill people steal small inconspicuous property \( cipher cellular phone \) seen past blue box technology , present modified cellular phones , expect see among high stakes criminals lucrative market stolen cipher phones used days high stakes criminals pay life cheap types substantial amounts stolen instruments person typically discovered missing dead days , stolen instrument usable days continuing demand fresh phones fresh bodies since clinton also going full bore deny unconnected citizens means defend \( protect 911 good enough \) perverting trashing second amendment , targeted individuals guaranteed easy prey bodies compared greater good fed able defeat citizen 's security impunity \? n't think n't exist means nsa usual eavesdropping , scanning keywords , without court order , \? , got great florida real estate might interested perhaps idea escrowed keys meant divert discussion , away basic fact government systematically taking away right privacy , secure , means self defense , every right spelled bill rights \? government ! trust us words , clipper similar systems potential turn current inconvenience law enforcement direct , vicious , persistent threat general public important government \? law enforcement \( people control \) safety general public \? gun control issue answer one look good works making cities safer places worst regard also places 'best' gun control government public good , control never forget founding fathers sure concerned remainder deleted pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc 1 207 \( pat myrto \) seattle , wa else fails , try ! uunet ! pilchuck ! rwing ! pat wisdom two things infinite universe human stupidity , sure former albert einstien
marc math uni sb de \( marc conrad \) subject list large integer arithmetic packages organization computational linguistics dept , u saarbruecken lines 530 nntp posting host math uni sb de mrr scss3 cl msu edu \( mark riordan \) writes comprehensive list deleted comprehensive list sci math symbolic , detailed descriptions many packages \( especially , mark , update list \) \) available systems list currently developed distributed software symbolic math applications informations supplied systems longer supported like saint , , , , , sin , sac , , , , sheep , , , detailed info systems , look directory pub symbolic math anonymous ftp math berkeley edu particular recommendation made want prices contact company programs listed \( aprox \) reverse order number machines run , class , general purpose systems first information add list \( know missing felix \) please send ca math berkeley edu ney de department mathematics university california berkeley ca 94720 math berkeley edu general purpose maple type commercial machines impressive list machines seen program workstations \( dec , hp , ibm , mips , sun , sgi , apollo \) , 386 pc 's , mac , amiga , atari , 3b2 , gould , convex , ncr , pyramid , sequent , unisys cray 's contact maple daisy waterloo edu waterloo maple software , 160 columbia street west , waterloo , ontario , canada phone \( 519 \) 747 version 5 release 1 comments general purpose , source available routines , graphics support 5 0 demo program pc dos obtained anonymous ftp wuarchive wustl edu edu math msdos modern algebra zip mathematica type commercial machines cray mac 's pc 's contact info wri com , phone 1 800 441 math wolfram research , inc 100 trade center drive , champaign il 61820 version 2 1 comments general purpose , notebook interface next , mac , nice graphics macsyma type commercial machines sun 3 , sun 4 \( sparc \) , vax \( unix vms \) , apollo , hp 9000 , dec risc , dos , computers , 368 387 486 \( sx 's \) pc 's contact macsyma service macsyma com , phone 800 macsyma macsyma inc , 20 academy st , arlington version depends machine 417 100 latest \( sun 4 , hp , dec risc \) , 417 125 pc 's comments general purpose , many diverse capabilities , one oldest around includes improvements macsyma inc descendant mit 's macsyma doe macsyma type distribution fee machines , , ti explorer lisp machines nil version runs using vms system public domain franz lisp version , runs unix machines , including suns using unix contact energy science technology software center p box 1020 oak ridge tn 1020 phone \( 615 \) 576 comments help doe macsyma , general help issues obtaining support , new versions , etc paradigm com leon paradigm assoc paradigm associates , inc 29 putnam avenue , suite 6 cambridge , 02139 \( 617 \) 492 maxima type licence fee get licence download machines unix workstations \( sun , mips , hp , pc 's \) pc dos \( beta \) contact rascal utexas edu \( bill \) version 4 155 comments general purpose mit macsyma family common lisp implementation william f , based kyoto common lisp modified version doe macsyma available \( doe \) sites get licence \( phone 615 576 \) software dos math utexas edu pub beta max zip unix rascal ics utexas edu pub maxima 4 155 tar z currently charge 1 machine license 165 universities site licenses also available type commercial machines mac 's 4meg ram contact com , phone \( 508 \) 263 , fort pond research 15 fort pond road , acton us version 1 0 comments mit macsyma family descendant , uses franz lisp type commercial machines vax vms , sun 3 , sun 4 , \( sgi mac 's works \) contact paradigm com version \? \? \? comments \? \? \? type distribution fee machines vax unix contact \( see doe macsyma \) version \? \? \? comments general purpose mit macsyma family descendant includes source binaries assembler macsyma franz lisp opus 38 reduce type commercial machines unix workstations , variety mainframes , ms dos 386 atari st contact reduce netlib rand org version 3 34 comments general purpose form type public domain 1 , version 2 commercial machines msdos , , mac , sun3 , sun4 sparc , apollo , next , vax vms , vax ultrix , decstation , others contact nikhef nl \( \) binary versions version 1 available anonymous ftp nikhef nikhef nl \( 192 16 199 1 \) version 1 2 comments general purpose , designed big problems , batch like interface axiom type commercial machines ibm rs 6000 's ibm contact ryan com , phone \( 708 \) 971 fax \( 708 \) 971 numerical algorithms group , inc 1400 opus place , suite 200 , grove , il version \? \? \? comments general purpose type anonymous ftp machines suns , apollo dn siemens workstations contact math uni sb de version 3 5 comments general purpose derive type commercial machines runs pc 's hp 95 's contact 808 734 soft warehouse inc harding ave , suite 505 honolulu , hawaii version 2 01 comments said robust , gets problems larger programs fail low cost theorist type commercial machines mac 's contact well sf ca us , phone \( 415 \) 543 fax \( 415 \) 882 corp , 939 howard st 333 , san francisco , ca 94103 version 1 11 comments general purpose , graphics , like mac interface 'll love , fixed precision \( 19 digits \) , runs smaller mac 's mma mas type anonymous ftp machines atari st \( spc modula 2 compilers \) , ibm pc \( modula 2 compilers \) commodore amiga \( compiler \) contact h computer algebra group university passau , germany version 0 60 comments mas experimental computer algebra system combining imperative programming facilities algebraic specification capabilities design study algebraic algorithms mas available via anonymous ftp alice fmi uni passau de 123 231 10 1 type anonymous ftp berkeley edu machines anywhere running common lisp contact cs berkeley edu version \? \? \? \? \? \? \? comments \( ! \) type anonymous ftp ftp cs cornell edu pub contact rz cs cornell edu version 4 240 comments intended incorporated larger , specialized systems type \? \? \? machines ibm pc 's \( dos \) contact victor l , institute control sciences , 65 , moscow , ussr version \? \? \? comments functional language group theory cayley type cost recovery machines sun 3 , sun 4 , ibm aix vm machines , apollo , dec vax vms , mac running ux 2 01 higher convex contact cayley maths su oz au phone \( 61 \) \( 02 \) 692 , fax \( 61 \) \( 02 \) 692 computational algebra group university sydney nsw 2006 australia version 3 8 3 comments designed fast computation algebraic structures groups , rings , fields , modules graphs although began group theory system recently evolved general \( abstract \) algebra system gap type anonymous ftp \( free , pd basically gnu copyleft \) machines unix workstations , atari st , ibm pc mac contact gap samson math rwth aachen de ftp site samson math rwth aachen de \( 137 226 152 6 \) math ucla edu version 3 1 \( 3 2 released dec 92 \) comments group theory calculations algebra number theory pari type anonymous ftp machines workstations , mac next contact pari mizar greco prog fr anonymous ftp math ucla edu \( 128 97 64 16 \) directory pub pari version 1 35 comments number theoretical computations , source available , key routines assembler , ascii xwindows graphics pc dos version available anonymous ftp wuarchive wustl edu edu math msdos modern algebra type anonymous ftp machines complete source available , binary mac versions available contact anonymous ftp zariski harvard edu \( 128 103 1 107 \) version \? \? \? comments focused algebra type computations \( polynomial rings finite fields \) , things like kant type \? \? \? machines \? \? \? contact kant group prof dr e dr johannes v institut , heinrich heine 1 , 4000 1 bitnet bitnet version 1 2 comments kant \( computational algebraic number theory \) subroutine package algorithms geometry numbers algebraic number theory two versions kant kant v1 written ansi fortran 77 , kant v2 built cayley platform written ansi c lie type commercial machines unix workstations \( sun , dec , sgi , ibm \) , next , pc 's , atari mac 's contact lie nl , phone 31 20 592 , fax 31 20 592 expertise centre , 413 , 1098 sj amsterdam , netherlands version 2 comments lie group computations type anonymous ftp \( zip \) machines mac ibm pc 's contact malm acs oakland edu , phone \( 313 \) 370 donald e g malm , department mathematical sciences oakland university , rochester , mi 4401 version 8 30 comments basic like environment number theory collection programs written one find malm \( collection number theory programs \( malm zip \) donald e g malm \( copyrighted \) , including lucas test , algorithm chinese , curve method n , 's method factoring , general periodic continued fraction quadratic routine , evaluates 's function h 's method solving x 2 q \( mod p \) \( prime factorization program numbers 80 digits \( zip \) \) , found archives \( wuarchive wustl edu \) numbers type free public domain , registration required machines pc dos contact phone \( 49 \) 541 969 rechenzentrum fax \( 49 \) 541 969 bitnet postfach w 4500 germany version comments numbers calculator number theory performs various routines elementary number theory , also usable algebra available anonymous ftp ftp rz uni de directory pub msdos math cocoa type \? \? \? machines mac 's contact cocoa bitnet version \? \? \? comments computations algebra type commercial machines ibm pc dos contact inc , 26 , 4040 , austria version \? \? \? comments algebra number theory microcomputer written r , r w matthews , r wells u tasmania turbo pascal v3 0 type anonymous ftp machines system vanilla common lisp , x 11 , least lisp c interface contact andrew department computer science , purdue university west lafayette , \( cs purdue edu \) version comments algebraic geometry toolkit , computing solutions systems algebraic equations written common lisp c , runs version 11 x window system available anonymous ftp cs purdue edu file pub avr src tar z analysis type \? \? \? machines \? \? \? contact mentioned comp phys comm 8 , 1 \( 1974 \) version \? \? \? comments heard program mentioned , 's designed large problems \( e thousands terms series \) developed cern \? type \? \? \? \? machines vax , sun , , orion , atari amiga contact lh se , lars , physics department , university stockholm 9 , 113 46 , stockholm , sweden version \? \? \? \? comments system calculus algebra lisp calculators type gnu copyleft machines needs lisp \( either common scheme \) contact available anon ftp ai mit edu 18 43 0 246 version \? \? \? comments ibm pc version floppy 50 available , 84 pleasant st wakefield , usa gnu calc type gnu copyleft machines emacs runs contact free software foundation version \? \? \? comments runs inside gnu emacs written entirely emacs lisp usual things arbitrary precision integer , real , complex arithmetic \( written lisp \) , scientific functions , symbolic algebra calculus , matrices , graphics , etc display expressions square root signs drawing screen ascii characters comes well written 600 page online manual ftp gnu site differential equations type informal distribution machines ibm pc 's \( dos \) contact v , program systems institute , ussr academy science , , p box 11 , ussr , boat version \? \? \? \? comments equation computations pc shareware type shareware , student advanced versions machines ibm pc contact chen deakin oz au version 2 1 1 comments runs plain \( 640k \) dos machines shareware version available file zip archives capable versions available mail order author type anonymous ftp machines pc dos contact \? \? \? \? version 2 0 comments linear matrix algebra package computes rank , , reduced form , jordan canonical form , characteristic equation , , etc matrix file zip archives type anonymous ftp machines pc dos contact david meredith , department mathematics san francisco state university san francisco , ca meredith sfsuvax1 sfsu edu version 4 0 comments formerly called well integrated graphics \( numerical \) matrix manipulation routines intended calculus students prentice hall sells book \( isbn 0 13 x calling 201 767 \) , also available \( without manual comprehensive help system \) anonymous ftp wuarchive wustl edu edu math msdos calculus zip amp type commercial , evaluation copy available anonymous ftp machines pc dos contact mark \( , 2006 compuserve com \) ph \( 404 \) 452 software , po box , , ga version 3 0 comments algebraic manipulation program \( amp \) written modula 2 symbolic calculation tool amp functions interpreter mode program mode manipulation using index notation evaluation copy available anonymous ftp ftp rz uni de pub msdos math zip mercury type shareware machines pc dos contact \? \? \? version 2 06 comments limited symbolic capabilities , extremely adept numerically solving equations produces publication quality graphical output used borland 's ! , borland abandoned , original author started selling shareware name mercury available anonymous ftp wuarchive wustl edu edu math msdos calculus zip type public domain machines pc dos contact \? \? \? version 5 46 comments available anonymous ftp wuarchive wustl edu edu math msdos modern algebra zip lie type public domain machines pc dos contact head mst csiro au \( k head \) csiro division materials science technology melbourne australia locked bag 33 , clayton , vic 3168 , australia phone \( 03 \) 542 telex aa fax \( 03 \) 544 1128 version 3 3 comments lie program written language \( package \) lie analysis differential equations available anonymous ftp wuarchive wustl edu edu math msdos adv diff equations calculus type shareware machines pc dos ega contact , dept mathematics university il urbana , il 61801 version 9 0 comments program calculus differential equations symbolic diff integration \( simple functions \) , graphs unstable program reason use , except price \( suggested registration fee 30 00 \) available anonymous ftp wuarchive wustl edu edu math msdos calculus calc arc marc conrad , universitaet des marc math uni sb de france germany opinions necessarily x ! group \( maybe even mine \)
gtoal gtoal com \( graham toal \) subject need clipper cheap security \? lines 24 gtoal gtoal com \( graham toal \) writes uk , 's impossible get approval attach crypto device phone network \( anything plugs bt phone sockets must approved reason crypto devices never \) whats difference v 32bis modem v 32bis modem \? i'm entirely silly i'm pointing modems already approved data transmission work fine transmit scrambled voice absolutely meant secure dedicated crypto device ever given approval guerrilla underground devices well possible today 's high speed modems \( think many v32bis modems approved either mind overpriced couriers \) someone tell hardware compression needed run digital speech 14 4k \? think 've heard 's lets say 8 bit samples would raw data corresponding sampling rate usable \? , fancy compression need \? g
gtoal gtoal com \( graham toal \) subject shelf cheap des keyseach machine \( corporate acceptance wiretap chip \) lines 9 think also point mystical des engines known plaintext engines \( unless add ton really smart hardware \? \) assume ton smart hardware n't really smart g
gtoal gtoal com \( graham toal \) subject secret source announcement lines 19 even interesting smtp server csrc ncsl nist gov longer recognizes commands telnet csrc ncsl nist gov smtp trying 129 6 54 11 connected csrc ncsl nist gov escape character ' ' 220 first org sendmail 4 1 nist ready tue , 20 apr 93 17 01 34 edt expn clipper 500 command unrecognized seems like sombody n't like snooping around , marc mine dozen people probably idea \) rush shut imply names list heavy duty spooks \? \) \) \) g
gtoal gtoal com \( graham toal \) subject text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption lines 14 actually , many us noted noted program started least 4 years ago , contracts vlsi technology let least 14 months ago , production chips well underway , forth nobody know claimed clinton program chose go ahead perhaps nsa realised one would even contemplate falling dual escrow bush administration wait democrat govt con promoting people might believe honest \( n't work , \? \) \) g
linet org \( red \) subject text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption distribution na organization long island long may rave ! lines 60 article gap caltech edu hal cco caltech edu \( hal finney \) writes key question whether non clipper encryption made illegal seems pretty obvious made illegal loud noise made immediately congress house ! looks like worst nightmares raised dorothy denning 's proposals coming true government continues course , imagine see strong cryptography made illegal encryption programs disk files email , well software allow encrypted voice communications , distributed underground people learn hide fact protecting privacy n't know 's worse waste money , fact \( spite clinton 's rhetoric contrary \) feeble attempt large group bored intelligence bureaucrats justify currently useless jobs clinton said going trim fat government n't look ! said group drug dealing terrorism tend international crimes going cease us starts regulate encryption drug dealers terrorists simply go countries communicate plans , still carry wherever else solution problem try invent new problem saying need encryption guess 's good thing bill gates n't 4 star general would need copies ms dos , right \? und vee iff doctor dos ! ! 's shocking frightening see actually happening health care education systems toilet come pearl government n't get clue real quick start trying repair infrastructure country rather inventing someone blame , germany japan going eat us alive , deserve 's like 's shortage real problems solve , guys ! clipper chip really going help homeless ! clipper chip really going help educate children cities ! think generation gap developed dod engineer dad work clipper chips used decrypt slightly rebellious adolescent hacker son 's naughty gif files ! see already n't forged post sick joke , i'm popping dead tape car stereo tearing ass canada clinton white horse near 's secret police ! come ! n't worry 's phone shit , knew gotten consent monitoring stickers keep phones chance known 'd need civilian life linet org rs self possession 9 10 law alien control laws nature ! come 's human , 's joel still dress way \? abortion , 's chicken , \( 17 vs \) 's \? george
steve b access digex com \( steve brinich \) subject fighting clipper initiative organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 7 nntp posting host access digex net er , excuse since escrow agencies n't yet chosen , say history untrustworthy behavoir sic \? refer federal law enforcement apparatus \( ultimately charge \) generally
random presto uucp \( jeff w \) subject tapped , code good reply presto ! random uunet uu net 1qpg8finn982 dns1 nmsu edu 1993apr18 escom com distribution na x newsreader v1 01 lines 16 organization i'm article 1993apr18 escom com , al donaldson writes unrelated question n't term clipper , neat , already taken intergraph \? yes , clipper trademark intergraph risc chip used thier workstations wonder intergraph going infringement thier name sake \? jeff one presto ! random uunet uu net x
strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) subject open letter mr clinton organization dsi uscrpac lines 29 article mbeckman mbeckman com mbeckman mbeckman com writes economist , i'm sure see flaws logic \( naive \) market flooded proprietary , weak , encryption , truly strong encryption unable compete true mass market , need strong crypto willing pay price , one buy strong crypto today one willing spend enough thus concern economic issue worth worrying system takes hold , government outlaw systems , something voluntary become system available political , economic issue separate matter , may making implied advocacy cheap secure crypto everyone 's true clipper chip would probably prevent except via clipper , cheap , secure crypto everyone political discussion , economic one , whole point clipper resolve political \( policy \) tension securing legitimate communications tapping crooks david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted
amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) subject need clipper cheap security \? organization intercon systems corporation herndon , va usa lines 24 distribution world reply amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) nntp posting host chaos intercon com x newsreader intercon tcp connect ii 1 1 ebrandt jarthur claremont edu \( eli brandt \) writes instead deliberately brain dead version cryptosystem even peer reviewed yes , nsa owns smart people pulled feal , well , going left lot dud phones hands agreed remember , n't even think clipper encryption real sense , 'd probably lot annoyed heh heh government already gave us remember announcement described scheme balancing two extremes privacy claiming citizens constitutional right encryption \? 's clinton \( anyone \) say , though federal supreme courts say anything constitutionality anything administration governmental agency says opinion best amanda walker intercon systems corporation
eachus spectre mitre org \( robert eachus \) subject shelf cheap des keyseach machine \( corporate acceptance wiretap chip \) reply scs lokkur dexter mi us 's message wed , 21 apr 93 00 12 30 gmt nntp posting host spectre mitre org organization mitre corp , bedford , 1993apr19 jarvis csri toronto edu 1993apr20 magnus acs ohio state edu 1993apr20 192105 11751 ulysses att com lines 32 smb research att com \( steven bellovin \) writes thousands \? tens thousands \? arithmetic , please skipjack 2 80 possible keys let 's assume brute force engine like hypothesized des 1 microsecond per trial , 1 million chips 's 10 12 trials per second , 38 , 000 years 2 80 trials well , maybe get chips running one trial per nanosecond , build machine 10 million chips sure 3 8 years solution much pernicious problem scheme proposed building brute force machine test 2 40 possible keys half one escrow agent easy \( one chip , one test per microsecond gives one break every two weeks , break gives messages involving phone \) xor scheme files one escrow agent gives nothing improvement , notice \( truely random \) bit strings allows arbitrary number escrow agents using xor , sk escrowed key , b two random bit strings , hand sk b , sk , sk b three escrow agents possible come encoding scheme match escrow pattern , example 3 4 , fewer cooperating escrow agents gives cracking agency benefit robert eachus standard disclaimer use standard disclaimer function message \( text clever ideas \) return better ideas
jfc athena mit edu \( john f carr \) subject screw people , crypto hard core hackers spooks organization massachusetts institute technology lines 37 nntp posting host achates mit edu article 1993apr20 shearson com pmetzger snark shearson com \( perry e metzger \) writes wrote chip algorithm classified reverse engineer tell people , likely go jail well , i'm lawyer , tell completely utterly untrue u official secrets act laws punish revealing classified information learned capacity government official , contractor , etc , laws prohibit stealing information however , sell chip , ca n't see make reverse engineering revealing details illegal cases information come properly use wish , certainly exceptions write paper includes sufficiently detailed information build nuclear weapon , classified understand law , nuclear weapons design automatically classified even work believe allowed read paper less serious example tell drivers speed trap run , fined , even though might argue broke law discovered location policeman charge interfering police officer , quite similar would reverse engineering clipper chip n't tell think violates constitution find court cases struck laws many people would fact government violated rights imprisoned john carr \( jfc athena mit edu \)
ee92jks brunel ac uk \( jonathan k saville \) subject freely distributable public key cryptography c code \? organization brunel university , uxbridge , uk x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 26 \( gpu utcc utoronto ca \) wrote know freely distributable c \( c \) code public key cryptography \( rsa \) \? 've tried various archie searches avail heard pgp \? assume post pgp 2 2 freeware rsa encryption program includes digital signatures comprehensive key management facilities sites also keep source code growing number people using excellent software encrypt \( high standard \) email data get clinton outlaws two many sites rsa com pub pgp soda berkeley edu pub cypherpunks pgp hope helps , jon jon saville alive say , art ee92jks brunel ac uk poet , may tell thy dreams \? ' , pgp 2 2 public key available upon request finger
peter memex co uk \( peter \) subject clipper chip crypto key escrow organization memex information systems ltd , east , scotland lines 70 excerpts clipper announcement , questions ability authorized officials access telephone calls data , proper court legal order , necessary protect citizens q suppose law enforcement agency conducting wiretap drug smuggling ring intercepts conversation encrypted using device would decipher message \? would obtain legal authorization , normally court order , wiretap first place would present documentation authorization two entities responsible safeguarding keys obtain keys device used drug smugglers key split two parts , stored separately order ensure security key escrow system two sections phrases legal court imply way ways legal wiretap \? affect way people trust system court orders protect feel escrow system \? second section shows sequence events law enforcer , armed warrant , attaches headphones line clips \( remember , folk could n't cope digital telephony \) hears load modem like tones \( talking analogue telephony \) next \? modulation scheme clipper boxes use \? possible record tones use keys obtained \? thought quite difficult record modem session intermediate point line maybe taken crash course data comms unit tones stores digital stream decryption later would still suffer problems trying record tones demodulator would one end line calls ca n't recorded decryption later would quite easy foil system buying lots clipper units \( supposed cheap mass market items \) using turn tolerant modulation scheme errors \? things proposed use us corporations secure foreign offices , phone line quality may well poor seems hard enough get speech quality something modem handle without add lots error correction keep decryption sync q devices exportable \? devices use government hardware \? voice encryption devices subject export control requirements one attractions technology protection give u companies operating home abroad mind , expect export licenses granted case case basis u companies seeking use devices secure communications abroad raises question uk illegal connect anything public network without approved body called stated , either uk telecom group , approve equipment encryption n't know true , would make good test case perhaps countries , uk may still qualify , get fish escrowed key pool well peter peter memex co uk
next stanford edu \( joshua jordan \) subject secret source announcement organization stanford university lines 22 article uwm edu rick miller rick ee uwm edu writes jbotz mtholyoke edu \( jurgen botz \) writes marc mit edu \( marc horowitz n1nzu \) writes seems like sombody n't like snooping around , marc , likely explanation marc spoofing sincerely doubt denning crew keen enough react quickly , doubt 'd want cripple smtp server marc spoofing try least , commands work exactly described \( e work \) josh pattern , content thing looks pair eyes important e
rick miller former spook rick ee uwm edu subject alternate legal wiretaps organization lines 43 nntp posting host 129 89 2 33 summary nothing , 's executive order tuinstra signal ece clarkson edu soe writes would strong incentive , vesselin points , police agencies go rogue try get keys efficient \( less constitutional \) means notice release said q suppose law enforcement agency conducting wiretap drug smuggling ring intercepts conversation encrypted using device would decipher message \? would obtain legal authorization , normally court order , wiretap first place clear implication legal authorizations court order leaky \? \( knows 's 7 pages authorized nsa \? \) cryptologic tech us navy \( , nothing big \) navy required know gist 18 , navy way naming particular presidential executive order outlines spooks ca n't respect privacy us nationals following information \( course \) unclassified whole issue hangs mean wiretap signal detected non intrusive means \( like radio listening \) , may recorded may analyzed analyzed means may either deciphered radio location may used locate transmitter catch record signal derivatives may kept maximum 90 days , destroyed unless permission obtained us attorney general keep n't ever wonder coast guard find drug runners tens thousands square miles sea , even dark \? ! \? rick miller rick ee uwm edu ricxjo discus mil wi us ricxjo muelisto send postcard , get one back ! enposxtigu bildkarton kaj vi ricevos alion ! rick miller 16203 woods muskego , wis 53150 usa
jgfoot minerva cis yale edu \( josh \) subject organized lobbying cryptography organization yale university lines 12 distribution inet reply jgfoot minerva cis yale edu nntp posting host minerva cis yale edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 minerva pl9 tarl neustaedter \( tarl coyoacan sw stratus com \) wrote means eff 's public stance complicated issues irrelevant encryption issue per se may well people care encryption issue n't care associate network erotica issue \( may even disagree eff 's position \) perhaps encryption types would defend digitized porn posted encrypted \? issues seperable maintain
rdippold qualcomm com \( ron asbestos dippold \) subject tapped , code good originator rdippold qualcom qualcomm com nntp posting host qualcom qualcomm com organization qualcomm , inc , san diego , ca distribution na lines 8 random presto uucp \( jeff w \) writes yes , clipper trademark intergraph risc chip used thier workstations wonder intergraph going infringement thier name sake \? probably keep quiet take , lest get busted good news ten weeks friday good day
wcs anchor ho att com \( bill stewart 1 908 949 0705 \) subject clipper algorithm secret organization brought numbers 2 , 3 , 7 reply bear kestrel fsl noaa gov 's message tue , 20 apr 1993 01 41 35 gmt 1993apr18 358 iecc cambridge us panix com 1993apr20 fsl noaa gov nntp posting host rainier ho att com lines 38 article 1993apr20 fsl noaa gov bear kestrel fsl noaa gov \( bear giles \) writes article panix com dfl panix com \( danny o'bedlam \) writes algorithm classified military contract \( similar government equivalent military \) let proprietary design feds say nsa developed patent \? patent publicly available \? betting classified unless major change law , 's beast classified patent patents exist encourage communications develop state art n't classified patents , patent secrecy orders suppose invent voice scrambler cb radio , apply patent patent office decides nsa might interested , gives copy application , get nice note back saying patent application classified national security reasons 're longer allowed make sell i'm picking example happened late 1970s probably analog scrambler , would probably violated fcc rules anyway , get classified suppose publish paper really algorithm file patent application since 's published , ca n't gain anything , though ca n't get patents countries us , patent laws different obviously system classified patents would highly bogus ca n't sell widget , 's classified patent 're allowed see patent , know owns design , give us money work progress maybe wo n't throw jail espionage countries might kind system \( , n't quite yet pray peace bill bill stewart 1 908 949 0705 wcs anchor att com bell labs 4m312 holmdel nj , i'm new jersey , work cyberspace white house commect line 1 202 456 1111 fax 1 202 456 2461
smb research att com \( steven bellovin \) subject shelf cheap des keyseach machine \( corporate acceptance wiretap chip \) organization bell laboratories lines 66 article demon co uk , graham toal gtoal gtoal com writes article 1993apr20 192105 11751 ulysses att com smb research att com \( steven bellovin \) writes thousands \? tens thousands \? arithmetic , please skipjack 2 80 possible keys n't yet know 80 bits count n't worry 're going cheat something get caught key size one things verified externally feed lots random key input pairs chip , try flipping random key bits , see happens output already know happen half output bits vary , average , 1 bit key change input change build weak cryptosystem , might case bits much less powerful others , sense enter encryption late game contrast , des designed use key bit early possible 50 output change rate appears early round 5 , though , n't think nsa going cheat crudely 're likely get caught remember 've promised let committee outside experts see cryptosystem design assume something des like , biased generation schedule stick like sore thumb committee run lots tests , retain output verified later chip yes , civilian community least secure storage facilities n't think even nsa get without noticed , fort meade gets transporter working \( oops n't think supposed talk \) committee members even retain secure copies code two halves , xor together recover program seriously , , think , problems whole scheme people invented n't stupid , 've crypto game smoke mirrors game far longer us 're going lie ways detected easily , since credibility thing use sell system 've lied civilian committee , one believe absence back doors 've lied key size , one believe n't copied programming disk u keys 've lied obvious aspects strength cryptosystem , one believe escrow agencies n't n't say n't lying things anyway i'm certainly claiming nsa ca n't build cryptosystem back door committee ca n't find look long took folks believe boxes n't sabotaged 's entirely possible committee release ambiguous report , reasons 's subtle point \( e , one ca n't explain senator \) anyway , looking like keys escrow arrangements smoke mirrors cover way nsa key transmitted serial number n't like unit key generation process better however s1 s2 supposed control escrow agents ca n't trusted keep seed values secure , ca n't trusted keep half keys secure still n't know s1 s2 change thought seen something constant , reread denning 's technical information post , n't say anything , one way steve bellovin
amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) subject would clipper make good cover encryption method \? organization intercon systems corporation herndon , va usa lines 44 distribution world reply amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) nntp posting host chaos intercon com x newsreader intercon tcp connect ii 1 1 bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de \( vesselin bontchev \) writes many , er , people usa reason like , surprising current plot allowed happen willingness majority people give freedom exchange sense safety hardly limited usa , endemic problem human society appreciable size structure us government try combat tendency extent , fighting entropy always losing battle people would rather comfort freedom paradox ca n't really former , long term , unless latter one reasons probably come across people weird cross libertarian establishment tool end taking utterly pragmatic view government n't get arms government fails protect interests people , lifetime never therefore , expectation result , protect interests rather expecting government fair use strong cryptography think needed , whether legal time thing anything else government would rather see private hands 's problem 's important using right tool job 's legal , much better , violate \( strong \) sense personal ethics , use anyway long think worth expecting government actually protect interests citizens , except accident , utter folly even jefferson , one major american system government , figured couple hundred years would become corrupt self serving would time dismantle try , revolution necessary agree , n't go around trying spark one , 'll certainly participate happens i'm around reason strong supporter individual rights cynical politics 've already written politics yes , may get trouble day , drive faster 55 mph , amanda walker intercon systems corporation
grady netcom com \( 1016 2ef221 \) subject secret source announcement organization capriccioso x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 distribution inet lines 84 andrew molitor \( amolitor nmsu edu \) wrote 1 \) monitor phonecalls 2 \) monitor usenet 3 \) provide cryptosystems easily crack 4 \) etc etc say n't , might n't know , evidence , almost values follows , therefore , values 'you' , claims nsa border paranoia andrew would n't one claim injecting disinformation net , andrew , refers unwarranted excessive suspicions fear , reasonable roots let 's start looking professionals , nsa birth secret executive order harry truman 1952 even 1976 even one word executive order nsa sealed paranoia , right \? outside nsa complex ten foot cyclone fence multiple rows wire , high voltage , complete signs prohibiting even making sketches penalty internal security act area completely scanned closed circuit television paranoia professionals , maybe know something n't , eh \? think would helped admiral japanese little 'paranoid' purple cipher \? maybe germans little 'paranoid' respect turing british cracking zimmerman \? would little paranoia helped germans \? maybe nsa little 'paranoid' emma , joseph sidney petersen , jr , maybe want talk macmillan publishers cooperation cia nsa suppress 's japanese diplomatic secrets even kahn 's codebreakers paranoia , right \? popular cipher systems captured soviet spies one time pad , even necessity keeping incriminating evidence , known proven unbreakable system soviet paranoia , right \? think nsa \? huge pointed embassy row \? sites near satellite uplink downlink sites \? duh worked classified mitre communications lab one time even secret clearance toilet entire site built type vault thick bomb proof door mitre paranoia \? could cite probably hundred facts support , best hypothesis , notion nsa grabbing much , fast one would fool ignore pattern facts conclude random know government violent even children recent events prove judge william sessions disgrace solemn warning ignore web evidence government institutions contempt civil rights course err somewhat excessive side caution much less harm erring reckless side member crew uss liberty might might suggest , andrew , read kahn 's codebreakers bamford 's puzzle palace come back facts support authority grady netcom com 2ef221 15 e2 ad d3 d1 c6 f3 fc 58 ac f7 3d 4f 01 1e 2f
subject clipper considered harmful harvard edu \( nina yuan \) distribution inet nntp posting host harvard edu lines 37 shirriff sprite berkeley edu \( ken shirriff \) writes seems likely large subset encrypted communications would archived tape could read sometime future probable cause arises warrant obtained even imagine found legal constitutional , since nothing actually listened valid warrant issued keys obtained imagine archiving pay phone conversations , someone turns drug dealer , listen past drug deals archive calls suspected mafia members , potential terrorists , radicals , etc imagine convenience police able get warrant listening calls world trade center bombers made past year imagine available 1992 elections instead searching clinton passport file , could done voice grep \( someone stated earlier \) telephone conversations last 10 years i'm lawyer n't even play one tv , intuitively 's something wrong one 's words archived possible future use possibility frightens talk clipper chip , right cryptography , etc since archiving would powerful tool easy , would n't happen \? i'm afraid might nina h yuan 's miracle curiosity harvard college survives formal education husc harvard edu albert einstein
clam com \( george \) subject clipper nay sayers sound like distribution na organization clam associates lines 21 article dns1 nmsu edu amolitor moink nmsu edu \( andrew molitor \) writes lot article deleted space look ! clearly first step toward outlawing screw thread specifications madness n't fought , tooth nail , every step way , 'll crime use screw threads fearless leaders graciously define us clipper standard first step toward outlawing strong encryption standards government n't intend outlaw forms encryption , clipper big waste time money , ask \? anyone transferring data government agency could use would total fool use clipper system add backdoor key use alternate encryption methods \? assume away everything else , one , planning equipment contains clipper technology
jhan debra dgbt doc ca \( jerry han \) subject tapped , code good nntp posting host debra dgbt doc ca organization communications research centre , ottawa distribution na lines 58 article bontchev fbihh bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de writes people thought exaggerating claiming cripple chip first step totalitarian plot civil liberties usa seems 've even optimist things happening even faster expected 's another dirty tricks used apply us communist regime something secret , tell people \( fact , nothing done \) , course , explaining much better situation previous messages wrote americans wake fight new proposal seems already late already happened , civil liberties violated , , american people , part people sleeping happily \( \( \( sad one happily sleeping people , would like ask n't people slightly overreacting \? sudden going draw parallels nazi germany communist russia \? point matter yes serious problem end world guess \? 're something ca n't communist country nazi germany 're complaining , \( rather , 're complaining \) nobody shooting us \( , rather , 're shooting , real bad aim \( \) \) guess people \? live one countries world person complain without getting shot people always complaining somebody wrong , somebody wrong , whatever sit figure two things 1 \) done right \? 2 \) much worse get \? 'll find , pretty damn lucky let 's talk , get action going , decide 's going let 's overreact ! regards , vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center , university hamburg tel 49 40 54715 224 , fax 49 40 54715 226 fachbereich informatik agn pgp 2 2 public key available request vogt koelln strasse 30 , rm 107 c e mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de 2000 hamburg 54 , germany jerry han crc doc div behavioural research jhan debra dgbt doc ca opinions , opinions proud frozen member mighty warriors band memories 've left behind , still ringing ears genesis
rlglende netcom com \( robert lewis glendenning \) subject organized lobbying cryptography organization netcom online communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 21 generally , organization influence proportion narrowness objectives number members strength belief members pro anti abortion groups strong narrow objectives , lots interested members real passionate reason , mixing nra probably bad idea interests groups may well diminish passion index combined organization clear would greatly enlarge nra , believe new organization , may cooperate nra two organization 's interest coincide , optimum strategy lew lew glendenning rlglende netcom com perspective worth 80 iq points niels bohr \( somebody like \)
rdippold qualcomm com \( ron asbestos dippold \) subject need clipper cheap security \? originator rdippold qualcom qualcomm com nntp posting host qualcom qualcomm com organization qualcomm , inc , san diego , ca lines 36 gtoal gtoal com \( graham toal \) writes someone tell hardware compression needed run digital speech 14 4k \? think 've heard 's lets say 8 bit samples would raw data corresponding sampling rate usable \? , fancy compression need \? good vocoder like give 8000 bits per second locked full rate \( 's variable rate voice activity vocoder \) want less quality , cut 4000 bps \( half rate \) full rate variable could put two full duplex conversations v 32bis modem requires dsp , though rs 6000 cpu could probably real time , add multiply instruction dsp things want speech real time need 4000 samples second \( good voice \) 8 bit samples \( isdn 8000 8 bit samples second \) , 32 kbps could fast 2 1 compression get 16 kbps , v 32bis quality point bleah , work add time encryption method 're going need sampling hardware , problem new mac , amiga pc soundblaster card \( 're popular cheap could also build simple adc \) problem soundblaster n't seem full duplex ca n't sample play time , making two way conversation bit tough special hardware capable sound card may required thing worries 2 1 compression soundblaster automatically hardware , n't good feel processor intensive , ca n't estimate fast pc 'd need men drink us drink
rhyolite wpd sgi com \( vernon \) subject fighting clipper initiative organization silicon graphics , inc mountain view , ca lines 20 article netcom com , strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes federal reserve open market committee successfully kept decisions leaking statutory period publication sure \? n't recent studies found yet announced decisions market changes \? n't continuing early rumors deliberations \? even department agriculture successfully kept crop leaking prematurely sheesh ! remember big scandal year two \( 3 \? \) ago exactly leaks \? vernon , sgi com
rab well sf ca us \( bob bickford \) subject shelf cheap des keyseach machine nntp posting host well sf ca us organization whole earth 'lectronic link lines 32 article tom amber ssd csd harris com , tom ssd csd harris com \( tom horsley \) writes n't intended flame anything , really curious manufacture things still maintaining key escrow security without simply saying trust manufacturer , wo n't look without getting really thorny questions reverse engineering , let point already exist gate arrays 's known security fuse programmed 've verified programming makes impossible read programming device \( , ignoring reverse engineering questions \) speaking experience completely reinvent one designs six seven years ago disk file , backups bad , devices unreadable security fuses made appreciate value \) point least 's much worry whether get chips made reliably securely really secondary question whether use chip likely secure , methinks robert bickford hacker person derives joy rab well sf ca us discovering ways circumvent limitations recognize class criminals juvenile taken calling , consider irrelevant true meaning word mafia calls nobody pays fact attention
ab ersys edmonton ab ca \( allan \) subject n't ftp , live canada , get rsa \( ras \? \) 4 ataris organization edmonton remote systems 3 , edmonton , ab , canada lines 9 n't ftp live canada \( means would u citizen send program wishes restrict \) someone europe must ported rsa get rsa non ftp news feed \? allan ab ersys edmonton ab ca
wcs anchor ho att com \( bill stewart 1 908 949 0705 \) subject clipper chip technical summary organization brought numbers 2 , 3 , 7 reply denning guvax acc georgetown edu 's message 19 apr 93 18 23 27 0400 nntp posting host rainier ho att com lines 62 article 1993apr19 3420 guvax acc georgetown edu denning guvax acc georgetown edu writes prof denning 's description skipjack mostly omitted chip structure clipper chip contains classified 64 bit block encryption algorithm called skipjack algorithm uses 80 bit keys \( compared 56 des \) 32 rounds scrambling \( compared 16 des \) supports 4 des modes operation throughput 16 mbits second f , 80 bit family key common chips n , 30 bit serial number u , 80 bit secret key unlocks messages encrypted chip key k message stream \( e , digitized voice \) fed clipper chip produce two values e k , encrypted message stream , e e k u n f , law enforcement block three questions 1 \) looks like 64 bits input gives 4 64 bits output e k 64 bits e k u e 80 bits 128 bits e e k u , n f e 128 30 bits 192 bits really need transmit 256 bits time , transmit 192 bits wiretap block beginning \? 256 would really obnoxious bandwidth limited applications like cellular phones \( even regular phones 2 \) 4 des modes interact two part output \? various feedback modes apply message block , also wiretap block \? , wiretap block transmitted beginning , get incorporated everything feedback modes , ecb mode \? 3 \) clipper chip check wiretap block \? block present \? since receiving chip n't know transmitter 's u , presumably ca n't check validity e k u , 's limited checking form wiretap block , maybe checking serial number \( unless 's sort back door structure lets recognize valid e k u \) case , replace wiretap block different wiretap block , presumably old valid one avoid attracting attention \? \( chip wo n't , output \) regular people one serial number dummy key paranoid people use someone else 's serial number hand , could think solution easily , presumably nsa could done something block , like use message encryption 's really e k , u , n \? thanks ! pray peace bill bill stewart 1 908 949 0705 wcs anchor att com bell labs 4m312 holmdel nj , i'm new jersey , work cyberspace white house commect line 1 202 456 1111 fax 1 202 456 2461
elee9sf menudo menudo uh edu \( karl barrus \) subject tapped , code good organization university houston lines 27 distribution na netcom com nntp posting host menudo uh edu reply strnlght netcom com 's message sun , 18 apr 1993 02 41 55 gmt david sternlight writes 'd trust something nsa long 'd trust something swiss japanese \? \? \? incredible statement ! nsa tried suppress public key crypto rsa , yet claim encourage use strong crypto us citizens would trust black box nsa versus open system elsewhere \? karl l barrus elee9sf menudo uh edu preferred address barrus tree egr uh edu \( nextmail \) karl l barrus elee9sf menudo uh edu preferred address barrus tree egr uh edu \( nextmail \)
mjr tis com \( marcus j ranum \) subject shelf cheap des keyseach machine \( corporate acceptance wiretap chip \) organization trusted information systems , inc lines 10 nntp posting host sol tis com mean , imagine machine 1 trial nanosecond , imagine storage medium could index archive think 'd massive data compression fit bit key information primary particle known universe , hey , 's fun imagine mjr
gpu utcc utoronto ca \( \) subject freely distributable public key cryptography c code \? summary know \? organization utcc public access lines 8 know freely distributable c \( c \) code public key cryptography \( rsa \) \? 've tried various archie searches avail thanks , dan
rboudrie chpc org \( rob boudrie \) subject tapped , code good organization center high perf computing wpi marlboro distribution na lines 26 article c5so84 hxv demon co uk graham toal gtoal gtoal com writes article 2073 rwing uucp pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) writes clinton clipper good , make public many people exchange ideas examine , rather isolated \( respected \? \? perhaps one time released algorithm , would possible someone come implementation identical , lacking escrowed key note press announcement mentioned algorithm kept secret security key escrow system case security means escrowed key every clipper chip assuming believed said effective algorithm , escrow system , would buy \( \) chip firm escrowed key \( b \) second source chip reputable firm b key government escrow would obviously powerful economic incentives second source , non escrowed , vendor
bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de \( vesselin bontchev \) subject tapped , code good reply bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de organization virus test center , university hamburg distribution na lines 33 andersom spot colorado edu \( marc anderson \) writes methods ``this year 's crime bill teeth , bare gums , '' clinton said particular , administration place strict controls data formats protocols , require registration called keys , '' hope denying drug dealers ability communicate secret clinton said approach could used forms underground economic activity , ``the deficit causing tax live luxury expense grandchildren '' people thought exaggerating claiming cripple chip first step totalitarian plot civil liberties usa seems 've even optimist things happening even faster expected 's another dirty tricks used apply us communist regime something secret , tell people \( fact , nothing done \) , course , explaining much better situation previous messages wrote americans wake fight new proposal seems already late already happened , civil liberties violated , , american people , part people sleeping happily \( \( \( sad regards , vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center , university hamburg tel 49 40 54715 224 , fax 49 40 54715 226 fachbereich informatik agn pgp 2 2 public key available request vogt koelln strasse 30 , rm 107 c e mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de 2000 hamburg 54 , germany
bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de \( vesselin bontchev \) subject would clipper make good cover encryption method \? reply bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de organization virus test center , university hamburg lines 17 strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes notorious self styled dissidents , example , already got heads high tall grass 'd little chance getting clearance many , er , people usa reason like , surprising current plot allowed happen regards , vesselin vesselin vladimirov bontchev virus test center , university hamburg tel 49 40 54715 224 , fax 49 40 54715 226 fachbereich informatik agn pgp 2 2 public key available request vogt koelln strasse 30 , rm 107 c e mail bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de 2000 hamburg 54 , germany
grady netcom com \( 1016 2ef221 \) subject secret source announcement organization capriccioso x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 35 guess read group course knew easy single doubt mind every byte passes every significant gateway captured data \? \( maybe name \) maybe start newsgroup distribution encrypted posts intended members affinity groups shared private key example coming cypherpunks meeting , private key corresponding particular meeting could passed moderator minutes , followup comments participants , could posted alt encrypted group use people attended intended group non attendees could course signed using private key encrypted starting alt encrypted newsgroup rather maintaining mailing lists better several reasons first , would easier archive people might join group late might like easily read earlier posts second , traffic analysis know exactly affinity message directed would three , newsgroup much public would serve publicize available privacy measures internet would fun accumulate secret full keys beats giving shirts door prize could send copy alt encrypted directly judge william sessions admiral save time collected grady netcom com 2ef221 15 e2 ad d3 d1 c6 f3 fc 58 ac f7 3d 4f 01 1e 2f
ptrei bistromath mitre org \( peter trei \) subject screw people , crypto hard core hackers spooks nntp posting host bistromath mitre org organization mitre corporation lines 41 article netcom com strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes actually telling want use product manufacturer \( actually better yet , trusted pair escrow agencies \) key us already situation car makers keys cars \( get quickly vin number \) , doubt presented court order , 'd surrender copies government chances many code numbers house locks 've installed , emergency cut keys thus 'd also provide keys government pursuant court order course , nothing prevents buying new lock cash installing even modifying core match arbitrary key difficult home knew someone fixed locks way house , office cars took key \( took good care \) state difficulty gaining access safe deposit box court order bad analogy bad \( , \) ever safety deposit box \? work two key system bank clerk one , \( different keys \) bank keep copy key lose , drill lock , replace door time consuming expensive process \( happy charge account \) process exactly analogous private key escrow system , state crack cipher get data please use false analogies peter trei ptrei mitre org
langford gems vcu edu subject organized lobbying cryptography organization medical college virginia lines 29 article 1993apr20 husc3 harvard edu , kubo zariski harvard edu \( tal kubo \) writes mentioned possible dangers unwelcome political associations , would remiss suggest something opposite direction gathering support nra emphasizing rkba side issue well first amendment side tal kubo math harvard edu hmmm , gave interesting idea argument 1 \) second amendment gives us right keep bear arms 2 \) strong cryptography arms , according u government \( 's 's hard export \) therefore , right strong cryptography ! q e however , 's likely hard harder exercise right getting exercise rights government slowly restricting maybe nra would best existing organization \? \( although think new one might better , perhaps would take long start would certainly join \) electronic desk bob langford health sciences computing 804 786 \( fax 804 786 \) virginia commonwealth university e mail langford gems vcu edu langford \( bitnet \)
steve b access digex com \( steve brinich \) subject shelf cheap des keyseach machine \( corporate acceptance wiretap chip \) organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 17 nntp posting host access digex net thousands \? tens thousands \? arithmetic , please skipjack 2 80 possible keys n't yet know 80 bits count n't worry 're going cheat something get caught key size one things verified externally feed lots random key input pairs chip , see happens output device designed use key 's registered feds , n't see feed different key user change key 2 80 possibilities , main reason regarding proposal unacceptable disappears
tom ssd csd harris com \( tom horsley \) subject shelf cheap des keyseach machine \( corporate acceptance wiretap chip \) organization harris computer systems division lines 27 1993apr20 magnus acs ohio state edu 1993apr20 192105 11751 ulysses att com demon co uk 1993apr21 132318 16981 ulysses att com nntp posting host amber ssd csd harris com reply smb research att com 's message wed , 21 apr 1993 13 23 18 gmt n't like unit key generation process better however s1 s2 supposed control escrow agents ca n't trusted keep seed values secure , ca n't trusted keep half keys secure hope something n't understand system , someone tell chips going manufactured maintaining half key total control separate escrow agencies \? n't key come together \( form \) time chip constructed \? built like prom , chip sent 1st escrow agency program 1 2 key , 2nd agency program 1 2 key \( invents safeguards prevent 2nd agency reading information already programmed 1st \) \? n't intended flame anything , really curious manufacture things still maintaining key escrow security without simply saying trust manufacturer , wo n't look domain csd harris com usmail tom horsley uucp ! uunet ! hcx1 ! 511 circle beach , fl censorship form obscenity \( wait , forgot government tobacco subsidies \)
angel foghorn leghorn coe northeastern edu \( kirill shklovsky \) subject tapped , code good organization northeastern university distribution na lines 36 article 1993apr21 rick dgbt doc ca jhan debra dgbt doc ca \( jerry han \) writes one happily sleeping people , would like ask n't people slightly overreacting \? sudden going draw parallels nazi germany communist russia \? point matter yes serious problem end world guess \? 're something ca n't communist country nazi germany 're complaining , \( rather , 're complaining \) nobody shooting us \( , rather , 're shooting , real bad aim \( \) \) guess people \? live one countries world person complain without getting shot people always complaining somebody wrong , somebody wrong , whatever sit figure two things 1 \) done right \? 2 \) much worse get \? 'll find , pretty damn lucky let 's talk , get action going , decide 's going let 's overreact ! us liberties talk n't make problem go away n't make right rather opposite , anything , bet 's going get worse angel foghorn leghorn coe northeastern edu btw opinions , entity god , full stars ! dave n't know , 've got company ! epidemic
sphughes sfsuvax1 sfsu edu \( shaun p hughes \) subject organized lobbying cryptography organization san francisco state university distribution inet lines 27 article 1r3jgbinn35i eli cs yale edu jgfoot minerva cis yale edu writes tarl neustaedter \( tarl coyoacan sw stratus com \) wrote means eff 's public stance complicated issues irrelevant encryption issue per se may well people care encryption issue n't care associate network erotica issue \( may even disagree eff 's position \) perhaps encryption types would defend digitized porn posted encrypted \? issues seperable maintain would anyone post anything encrypted \? encryption use persons know decrypt data care people look \? concern continued erosion constitutional rights \( amendments , ii , iv , v note \) shaun p hughes facts stupid things sphughes sfsuvax1 sfsu edu ronald reagan republican national finger pgp 2 2 public key convention 1988
jgfoot minerva cis yale edu \( josh \) subject organized lobbying cryptography organization yale university lines 21 distribution inet reply jgfoot minerva cis yale edu nntp posting host minerva cis yale edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 minerva pl9 shaun p hughes \( sphughes sfsuvax1 sfsu edu \) wrote article 1r3jgbinn35i eli cs yale edu jgfoot minerva cis yale edu writes deletion perhaps encryption types would defend digitized porn posted encrypted \? issues seperable maintain would anyone post anything encrypted \? encryption use persons know decrypt data care people look \? responding another person \( tarl neustaedter \) held eff n't best organization fight rights since eff also supports right distribute pornography internet , something crypto people might object words , 's implying people protect speech , long encrypted
steve b access digex com \( steve brinich \) subject tapped , code good organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 5 distribution na nntp posting host access digex net agreed like bay pigs fiasco \( planned eisenhower administration given final green light kennedy \) sure , hen went , kennedy least man enough take full responsibility , expect slick willie clinton
arc leland stanford edu \( andrew richard conway \) subject tapped , code good organization society conservation momentum distribution na lines 65 article 1993apr21 rick dgbt doc ca jhan debra dgbt doc ca \( jerry han \) writes article bontchev fbihh one happily sleeping people , would like ask n't people slightly overreacting \? sudden going draw parallels nazi germany communist russia \? yes reasonable parallels \( though n't think russia ever claimed communist \) point matter yes serious problem end world guess \? 're something ca n't communist country nazi germany 're complaining must protest communist country know \? n't , unlikely ever socialist dictatorships , ca n't , whilst socialist democracies \( france australia \) course , people may disagree france australia socialist , \( rather , 're complaining \) nobody shooting us yet \( , rather , 're shooting , real bad aim \( \) \) guess people \? live one countries world person complain without getting shot circumstances public meeting last night \( usa \) , , nice calm , said speaker started beware opinions , forced meeting two armed policemen lot things one cannot usa may notice , australian visitor , notice people always complaining somebody wrong , somebody wrong , whatever sit figure two things 1 \) done right \? 2 \) much worse get \? 'll find , pretty damn lucky yes , lucky moment hope still true years time n't happen required effort let 's talk , get action going , decide 's going let 's overreact ! course n't react n't react andrew disclaimer opinions , represent society conservation momentum group hope n't lose student visa result opinions andrew conway arc leland stanford edu phone usa 415 497
ebrandt jarthur claremont edu \( eli brandt \) subject shelf cheap des keyseach machine \( corporate acceptance wiretap chip \) organization harvey mudd college , claremont , ca 91711 lines 15 article 1993apr21 132318 16981 ulysses att com smb research att com \( steven bellovin \) writes remember 've promised let committee outside experts see cryptosystem design hope silicon jocks committee follow algorithm hardware doubt nsa would pull monkey business point expect chip reverse engineered sooner later 's obvious opportunity introduce additional holes steve bellovin pgp 2 key finger e mail eli ebrandt jarthur claremont edu
george tessi com \( george mitchell \) subject organized lobbying cryptography organization test systems strategies , inc , beaverton , oregon lines 25 langford gems vcu edu writes article 1993apr20 husc3 harvard edu , kubo zariski harvard edu \( tal kubo \) writes mentioned possible dangers unwelcome political associations , would remiss suggest something opposite direction gathering support nra emphasizing rkba side issue well first amendment side hmmm , gave interesting idea argument 1 \) second amendment gives us right keep bear arms 2 \) strong cryptography arms , according u government \( 's 's hard export \) therefore , right strong cryptography ! q e maybe nra would best existing organization \? think new organization would much better idea , nra carries much baggage eff cpsr others hot shot , reputable organizers reading message \? effective group comes existence , count signing george mitchell \( george tessi com \)
charles gross acg eff org subject seen lobby , us x xxmessage id l b johnson eff org x xxdate wed , 21 apr 93 17 40 17 gmt nntp posting host l b johnson eff org organization electronic frontier foundation x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d17 lines 22 article 1993apr21 395 gems vcu edu , langford gems vcu edu writes however , 's likely hard harder exercise right getting exercise rights government slowly restricting maybe nra would best existing organization \? \( although think new one might better , perhaps would take long start would certainly join \) nra successful \( among number things \) , drop hat , get congresspersons office flooded postcards , faxes phone calls certainly , way cool internet powers organization , act way , action appropriate long kept informed events , anyone bboard make call action hopefully , 're strong enough community act calls realize little , i'm glad eff working loop issues , n't underestimate potential net political action adam speak
co uk \( andy \) subject shelf cheap des keyseach machine \( corporate acceptance wiretap chip \) reply smb research att com 's message wed , 21 apr 1993 13 23 18 gmt nntp posting host epcot harlequin com organization harlequin limited , cambridge , england 1993apr20 magnus acs ohio state edu 1993apr20 192105 11751 ulysses att com demon co uk 1993apr21 132318 16981 ulysses att com lines 42 article 1993apr21 132318 16981 ulysses att com smb research att com \( steven bellovin \) writes article demon co uk , graham toal gtoal gtoal com writes article 1993apr20 192105 11751 ulysses att com smb research att com \( steven bellovin \) writes thousands \? tens thousands \? arithmetic , please skipjack 2 80 possible keys n't yet know 80 bits count n't worry 're going cheat something get caught key size one things verified externally feed lots random key input pairs chip , try flipping random key bits , see happens output already know happen half output bits vary , average , 1 bit key change input change build weak cryptosystem , might case bits much less powerful others , sense enter encryption late game contrast , des designed use key bit early possible 50 output change rate appears early round 5 , though , n't think nsa going cheat crudely 're likely get caught consider starts bits 23 47 , using either bits except xor system makes early use every bit exhaustive key search would 2 79 keys search test varying single key bits would n't turn anything interesting remember 've promised let committee outside experts see cryptosystem design assume something des like , biased generation schedule stick like sore thumb algorithm suggest would stick like sore thumb , i'm sure could design system subtle key redundancy well hidden , would still make exhaustive key search take far less 2 80 encryptions n't believe claim real verified externally andy harlequin com
caronni nessie cs id ethz ch \( germano caronni \) subject need clipper cheap security \? organization swiss federal institute technology \( eth \) , zurich , ch lines 19 article pizzabox demon co uk gtoal gtoal com \( graham toal \) writes someone tell hardware compression needed run digital speech 14 4k \? think 've heard 's lets say 8 bit samples would raw data corresponding sampling rate usable \? , fancy compression need \? far know isdn \( call , 's plugged \) 's 8 bit \( gives one channel sec \) guess go sampling rate 6000 hz want quality analog line anybody knows compression algorithms factors voice \? greetings , germano caronni instruments register things 're designed register space still contains infinite unknowns pgp key id 341027 germano caronni caronni nessie cs id ethz ch fd560ccf586f3da747ea3c94dd01720f
tony lezard tony mantis co uk subject text white house announcement q clipper chip distribution world organization mantis consultants , cambridge uk lines 13 gtoal gtoal com \( graham toal \) writes whatever happens though , effect new chip make private crypto stand like sore thumb chip catches means alternatives developed happen clipper discredited tony lezard tony mantis co uk pgp 2 2 public key available key tony mantis co uk uknet ac uk servers pgp public keys demon co uk even phx cam ac uk
mathew mathew mantis co uk subject text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption organization mantis consultants , cambridge uk x newsreader rusnews v1 02 lines 9 bena cs monash edu au \( ben \) writes n't forget , country would n't let russians buy apple ii 's security concerns 's nothing would n't let british buy inmos systems security concerns designed damn things ! mathew
psionic wam umd edu \( haywood j \) subject new encryption nntp posting host rac3 wam umd edu organization university maryland , college park lines 120 promised , spoke today company mentioned washington times article clipper chip announcement name company secure technology \( information given end message contact \) basically disturbed announcement many reasons specifically however , mr secure communications brought light many points might interest readers belief made known clipper well rest industry several reasons , several company 's size could never able make decision use new chip day announced months ago proposed using chip 's secure telephone devices basically blew interested stuck strange , also spoke art melnick , , expressed several concerns new clipper chip obvious backdoor able let many people decrypt code key released authorities security crypto system lost forever keys end hands agency government fact escrowed keys never change means algorithm vulnerable time attacker classified algorithm may hide another backdoor feels probably keep people forging fake serial numbers , changing keys additionally feels nsa probably spent enough time money working way keep chip reversed engineered , feels reverse engineering difficult feels developed suitable technique protect chip attack also feels chip hardware encoded algorithm onto chip spoke mr melnick algorithm could n't tell much new n't patented yet however told little algorithm released public review patents granted crypto community see secure algorithm called nea new encryption algorithm details held trade secret patent issued , told incorporate following fast encryption data \( exact specs given , mr melnick stated much faster rs 232 put \) symmetric cipher , like idea des use 64 bit data blocks encryption \( like des idea \) key length given , mr melnick states adequate security algorithm written c assembler software form , ported many platforms \( unlike clipper chip hardware cannot made software \) consider definite plus nea widespread use algorithm accomodate public key distribution techniques rsa diffie hellman also supported hardware chip right projected cost nea chip 10 dollars ! ! \( clipper run 25 chip produced enough , probably wo n't happen \) currently sell program called c com uses algorithm special streaming protocol divide encrypted data blocks could prevent plaintext attacks know block header program operates supported rs 232 speeds uses software implementation algorithm importantly backdoor ! ! right company afraid new clipper chip put business real possibility really need help stopping clipper chip becoming standard want contact , reached secure communications technology georgia ave suite 302 silver spring , md \( 301 \) 588 2200 talked mr represents company answer questions factual errors occurring write apologize ahead time psionic wam umd edu fight wiretap chip ! ! ask ! c craig h amiga pgp key available would give liberty 1200 request security deserve neither
neuhaus vier informatik uni kl de \( stephan neuhaus \( \) \) subject need clipper cheap security \? nntp posting host vier informatik uni kl de organization university kaiserslautern , germany lines 39 gtoal gtoal com \( graham toal \) writes someone tell hardware compression needed run digital speech 14 4k \? think 've heard 's lets say 8 bit samples would raw data corresponding sampling rate usable \? , fancy compression need \? note cable freak , might completely misunderstood said also , math frequently noted wrong , 'll better check calculations assume 14 4k means 14 4k bits assume one start one , protocol overhead , effective number bytes per second 1 let 's also assume want transmit speech stereo , send 1 , 440 samples sec corresponds frequency 720 hz , low , especially think 8 bit low quality sound furthermore , converter probably present signal cut 720 hz , instead alias higher frequencies \( although definitely build filter overcome problem \) hand , speech easily example , could form power spectra , could simply band pass filter fourier transforms wo n't cd quality sound , 'll discernible power spectrum method good respect programmed software compressor , compression rates 90 relative errors due less 5 common although must say musical sounds , speech fun stephan neuhaus informatik uni kl de sig closed inventory please leave outside pgp 2 2 public key available request note expiration date
palmer larc nasa gov \( michael palmer \) subject tapped , code good organization nasa langley research center , hampton , va lines 52 distribution inet nntp posting host larc nasa gov article 1993apr21 chpc org rboudrie chpc org \( rob boudrie \) writes article c5so84 hxv demon co uk graham toal gtoal gtoal com writes article 2073 rwing uucp pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) writes clinton clipper good , make public many people exchange ideas examine , rather isolated \( respected \? \? perhaps one time released algorithm , would possible someone come implementation identical , lacking escrowed key note press announcement mentioned algorithm kept secret security key escrow system case security means escrowed key every clipper chip assuming believed said effective algorithm , escrow system , would buy \( \) chip firm escrowed key \( b \) second source chip reputable firm b key government escrow would obviously powerful economic incentives second source , non escrowed , vendor second sources pin compatible non clipper algorithm chips also escrowed keys \? reputable firm produces chip \( escrowed key \) pop replacement clipper chip phone , uses algorithm widely known evaluated trusted , 's problem \? clipper going reverse engineered anyway organization sufficient resources \( say billions cocaine dollars \? \) drug dealers 're worried slipping cracks law abiding \( non incredibly wealthy \) citizens , naturally , recourse claiming algorithm ca n't released prevent people using non key escrowed chips plain deceitful analysis chip output provide information necessary headers whatnot , bad guys could build chips using different algorithm still escrow keys , could buy bunches cheap phones k mart every week , play swap clipper chip cellular phone every day michael palmer man crazy writes secret palmer larc nasa gov way one conceal ripem key server vulgar roger bacon , 1220
rboudrie chpc org \( rob boudrie \) subject detect use illegal cipher \? organization center high perf computing wpi marlboro lines 25 impressions whole scheme seems instead trying ban strong crypto , trying co opt contention need keep algorythm secret protect security key registration suggests possible inherent weakness algorythm likely dont want anyone constructing black market devices dont keys registered anyone else notice q session , preventing black market chips w non escrowed keys exactly mean protecting security key escrow system two parts security system \( \) preventing unauthorized personel \( b \) assuring always decrypt clipper traffic course , ministry propoganda lot \( \) little \( b \) rob boudrie rboudrie chpc org ps anyone care guess encryption scheme gov't using newly formed database oppose entire lunacy \?
subject screw people , crypto hard core hackers spooks rubin dsg4 dse beckman com \( arthur rubin \) senator bedfellow mit edu 1993apr20 shearson com senator bedfellow mit edu organization beckman instruments , inc nntp posting host dsg4 dse beckman com lines 24 senator bedfellow mit edu jfc athena mit edu \( john f carr \) writes cases information come properly use wish , certainly exceptions write paper includes sufficiently detailed information build nuclear weapon , classified understand law , nuclear weapons design automatically classified even work believe allowed read paper thrown courts \( progressive case \) less serious example tell drivers speed trap run , fined , even though might argue broke law discovered location policeman charge interfering police officer , quite similar would reverse engineering clipper chip outright illegal violate first amendment would , give case speed trap example upheld courts arthur l rubin rubin dsg4 dse beckman com \( work \) beckman instruments brea 216 5888 mcimail com 70707 453 compuserve com arthur pnet01 cts com \( personal \) opinions , represent employer
subject tapped , code good rubin dsg4 dse beckman com \( arthur rubin \) distribution na organization beckman instruments , inc nntp posting host dsg4 dse beckman com lines 33 netcom com strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes article elee9sf menudo menudo uh edu elee9sf menudo menudo uh edu \( karl barrus \) writes would trust black box nsa versus open system elsewhere \? absolutely , assured someone trusted black box secure nothing conceal government , would like sure russian , japanese , french , competitors services ca n't read traffic 'd like sure competitive bid information safe commercial competitors foreign governments would aid believe nsa identical motivations respect activities president many senior government officials made clear share motivations thus 'd trust coincidence interests argument well basic trust professionalism high confidence skills david david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted nothing errors omissions ! arthur l rubin rubin dsg4 dse beckman com \( work \) beckman instruments brea 216 5888 mcimail com 70707 453 compuserve com arthur pnet01 cts com \( personal \) opinions , represent employer
mbeckman mbeckman mbeckman com \( mel beckman \) subject text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption organization beckman software engineering reply mbeckman mbeckman com distribution na , world x mailer uaccess lite macintosh release 1 5v5 lines 47 article 1993apr17 clarinet com \( sci crypt , alt security , comp org eff talk , comp security misc , comp org acm , comp org ieee \) , brad clarinet com \( brad templeton \) writes let 's assume , moment , system really secure unless get halves encryption key two independent escrow houses let 's say even trust escrow houses one aclu eff \( i'm entirely joking two names \) problem let 's assume reasoning , taken extreme \( 're close \) , arrive let 's assume perfectly ok assumptions make big ones system really secure , government keep algorithm secret \? plenty encryption algorithms n't depend upon secure , world use one \? reasons , course , certainly ca n't think honest ones next , assume trust escrow houses last time checked , every single branch government experienced unauthorized disclosure , corruption , even fabrication , supposedly secure data govt saying yeah , 're serious , trust us finally , although n't state explicitly , implicitly assume warrant mechanism country safe reasonable case ventura county man shot killed officers serving deliberately warrant tells govt long ways go score remember catch drug dealers , right \? others pointed , current proposal , deployed , render truly secure encryption much expensive inconvenient uncle sam 's brand able afford , sufficiently motivated , purchase expensive , inconvenient higher protection \? somebody lots extra cash following true ever strong encryption outlawed , outlaws strong encryption mel beckman internet mbeckman mbeckman com beckman software engineering compuserve 75226 , 2257 ventura , ca 93003 voice fax 805 647 1641 805 647 3125 observe lot watching yogi bera
mbeckman mbeckman mbeckman com \( mel beckman \) subject open letter mr clinton organization beckman software engineering reply mbeckman mbeckman com distribution world x mailer uaccess lite macintosh release 1 5v5 lines 38 article netcom com \( sci crypt \) , strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes 's simple way convert clipper proposal unexceptionable one make voluntary get high quality secure nsa classified technology agree escrow key otherwise david , economist , i'm sure see flaws logic \( naive \) market flooded proprietary , weak , encryption , truly strong encryption unable compete suppose govt secret tv broadcast standard , sold tvs cost private industry better standard , 's widespread due govt early flooding market cheap proprietary sets even though industry 's technology better , programming broadcast govt 's standard could compete \? flaw , course , making something voluntary today ensures voluntary future went renew ca drivers license last week required give ssn , produce ssn card number ! note federal law said state local govt could ever require use drivers license registration \( specifically ! \) trust govt says trust even though could arrangement n't require trust something big time look carefully , 'll see mel mel beckman internet mbeckman mbeckman com beckman software engineering compuserve 75226 , 2257 ventura , ca 93003 voice fax 805 647 1641 805 647 3125 observe lot watching yogi bera
rschnapp metaflow com \( russ \) subject tapped , code good nntp posting host organization metaflow technologies inc lines 19 might nice 1 cut ad hominem attacks prof denning , mr sternlight , etc something objective say views , go ahead say \( subject point 2 \) personal attacks reflect attacker throw light , heat ! 2 restrict discussion appropriate newsgroups submit comp org acm comp org ieee appropriate discussion made subscribers newsgroups aware issue want know participate discussion , easily join sci crypt , comp security misc , alt security , comp org eff talk russ email netcom ! metaflow ! rschnapp rschnapp metaflow com rschnapp bix com metaflow technologies voice 619 452 fax 619 452 la jolla , california unless specified , i`m speaking !
mbeckman mbeckman mbeckman com \( mel beckman \) subject secret algorithm clipper chip crypto key escrow organization beckman software engineering reply mbeckman mbeckman com distribution world x mailer uaccess lite macintosh release 1 5v5 lines 35 article 1993apr17 clarinet com \( sci crypt \) , brad clarinet com \( brad templeton \) writes interestingly enough , designing escrow , may want use rather unusual technology , sealed boxes paper , destructive read memory , rather typical computer databases , fun database hundreds millions keys , larger problem disclosed , keys could used decrypt previously recorded conversations gather proposal warrant would required get keys , collect conversations ! consider scenario agency collects encrypted conversations certain people likely targets \( necessarily legitimate targets \) , unrelated incident trigger warrant honor , know suspect received calls noted crime figure said calls arranged agency must therefore warrant determine whether suspect , sensitive govt post , corrupt suppose conceivable session keys involved somewhere , n't seem likely , would n't technical overview mention goes details number bits held escrow authority \? scheme full holes , stinks high heaven mel mel beckman internet mbeckman mbeckman com beckman software engineering compuserve 75226 , 2257 ventura , ca 93003 voice fax 805 647 1641 805 647 3125 observe lot watching yogi bera
ifarqhar laurel ocs mq edu au \( ian farquhar \) subject screw people , crypto hard core hackers spooks organization macquarie university , sydney australia lines 46 nntp posting host laurel ocs mq edu au article senator bedfellow mit edu jfc athena mit edu \( john f carr \) writes chip algorithm classified reverse engineer tell people , likely go jail n't find credible argument , two reasons one supplied unless care entering usa time future \( eg taiwanese backyard btw known custom silicon reproduce pirating high profit arcade machines like would n't care less \) , going care much us confidentiality , \? people like real , care travelling various countries business reasons , sit follow laws like , would contend 're main threat also grave doubts whether algorythm widely distributed silicon could possibly called classified 's like handing military secrets whole world envelopes marked n't open imagine several credible could employed came trial one would stupidity government 's actions perhaps foreign governments corporations could help us cracking system outside usa us government could probably stop importation clone hardware , software implementation practical amusing thought could employed algorythm fast software implementation , easy custom hardware \? des , extensive use permutation tables \( trivial hardware swap bus lines \) , relatively slow software big effect speed difference hardware software implementations cipher \( indeed , suspect lucifer 's designers well aware would , approved \) certain algorythms \( usually parallel search algorythms \) slow software , yet fly custom hardware proof employment clipper pure conjecture however , software implementation cipher something designers would trying avoid costs , inclusion techniques seems credible hmmm also wonder intergraph thinks use name clipper device \) ian farquhar phone 61 2 805 9400 office computing services fax 61 2 805 macquarie university nsw 2109 also 61 2 805 australia email ifarqhar laurel ocs mq edu au
ifarqhar laurel ocs mq edu au \( ian farquhar \) subject screw people , crypto hard core hackers spooks organization macquarie university , sydney australia lines 35 nntp posting host laurel ocs mq edu au article 19930419 305 almaden ibm com ameline vnet ibm com \( ian ameline \) writes also believe someone reverse engineer clipper chip , knowlege algorithm likely fairly widespread back doors weaknesses would discredit scheme , help grow market demand secure alternative must admit point running mind discussion one dice , wo n't long someone , bit work , full details clipper algorythm n't trivial , , difficult either half way decent vlsi design student able take photograph technology familiar , given description input , output , control supply lines , figure function various subsystems die indeed , uncommon exercise performed training \( makes think design decisions made designers could speculate chips going manufactured using carriers \( unlikely techniques expensive thing supposed relatively cheap produce \) , legal legislative framework prevent publication algorythm \( unlikely please correct wrong n't supposed sold internationally \? \) suppose likely reason algorythm remaining secret moment idiot bureaucrat , realities situation , decided well , keep secret supposed secret , n't \? random thoughts ian farquhar phone 61 2 805 9400 office computing services fax 61 2 805 macquarie university nsw 2109 also 61 2 805 australia email ifarqhar laurel ocs mq edu au
lyle seaman transarc com subject tapped , code good organization mail news gateway wang labs distribution na lines 47 jhan debra dgbt doc ca \( jerry han \) writes point matter yes serious problem end world guess \? 're something ca n't communist country nazi germany john edgar hoover 's usa 're complaining , \( rather , 're complaining \) nobody shooting us yet guess people \? live one countries world person complain without getting shot yet people always complaining somebody wrong , somebody wrong , whatever sit figure two things 1 \) done right \? 2 \) much worse get \? 'll find , pretty damn lucky far let 's talk , get action going , decide 's going let 's overreact ! harm overreacting \? may largest single threat civil liberties yet lifetime us done pretty heinous things past , n't yet recovered certainly seems historical trend towards less liberty , occasional perturbations time break quotes american political radicals lyle transarc 707 grant street 412 338 4474 gulf tower pittsburgh 15219 instances freedom people gradual silent encroachment power , violent sudden usurpation james madison
amolitor nmsu edu \( andrew molitor \) subject secret source announcement organization department mathematical sciences lines 29 distribution inet nntp posting host moink nmsu edu article netcom com grady netcom com \( 1016 2ef221 \) writes guess read group course knew easy single doubt mind every byte passes every significant gateway captured data \? \( maybe name \) really like claims come \? hear , practically daily , nsa monitors , oh , everything crack anything 'd never release cryptosystem could n't crack people get fascinating facts \? 'the puzzle \? get buck , 2nd hand , must true , eh \? i'm pretty sure nsa supposed , among many things , provide high quality cryptosystems variety places n't recall reading anywhere reliable 're supposed 1 \) monitor phonecalls 2 \) monitor usenet 3 \) provide cryptosystems easily crack 4 \) etc etc say n't , might n't know , evidence , almost values follows , therefore , values 'you' , claims nsa border paranoia andrew
soc mil \( raymond brand \) subject clipper chip facts request organization nice thing lines 28 read various clipper announcements net last days lot uninformed speculation chip , uses , government plots , etc , following questions 1 \) clipper chip actually implement \? skipjack cryptographic algorithm \? also implement chip chip communications protocol \? implement communications protocol , used crypt chip also 2 \) chip specifications spec sheets obtained \? 3 \) may purchase conditions \? 4 \) restrictions chip may used system \? 5 \) security algorithm encrypted communications appear require family key secret secret \? happens family key becomes well known \? 's secret make traffic analysis difficult , law enforcement message contain random information \? much random \? 6 \) chip programmed reveal unit key \? chip serial number \? programming parameters \? raymond brand soc mil
holland cs colostate edu \( douglas craig holland \) subject tapped , code good distribution na nntp posting host beethoven cs colostate edu organization colorado state university , computer science department lines 40 article bontchev fbihh bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de writes andersom spot colorado edu \( marc anderson \) writes methods ``this year 's crime bill teeth , bare gums , '' clinton said particular , administration place strict controls data formats protocols , require registration called keys , '' hope denying drug dealers ability communicate secret clinton said approach could used forms underground economic activity , ``the deficit causing tax live luxury expense grandchildren '' people thought exaggerating claiming cripple chip first step totalitarian plot civil liberties usa seems 've even optimist things happening even faster expected 's another dirty tricks used apply us communist regime something secret , tell people \( fact , nothing done \) , course , explaining much better situation previous messages wrote americans wake fight new proposal seems already late already happened , civil liberties violated , , american people , part people sleeping happily \( \( \( sad i'm definitely going write congressman , nobody 's ever going make respect law violates freedom speech , feds try enforce law , protect freedoms , force ever comes \( hopefully , wo n't \) doug holland doug holland anyone tries take away freedom holland cs colostate edu speech pry pgp key available e mail cold , dead lips ! !
ebrandt jarthur claremont edu \( eli brandt \) subject need clipper cheap security \? organization harvey mudd college , claremont , ca 91711 lines 56 article news intercon com amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) writes agreed remember , n't even think clipper encryption real sense , 'd probably lot annoyed agree assessment furthermore , promotion providing greater protection bare voice quite true , far goes however , way fulfill stated goal letting le wiretap terrorists drug dealers restrict stronger techniques wiretap targets presently use strong encryption , weak encryption , \( vast majority \) encryption latter two classes tapped weak encryption every phone , encryption class merged weak encryption class introduction clipper cause targets presently enjoying strong privacy give \? , rely privacy system expressly designed deny people like \? doubt mere introduction scheme give government nothing stated goal preventing degradation wiretapping capabilities fulfilled restriction domestic cryptography , restriction clipper appears , given public mute complaints would find grossly inadequate tradeoff , fear public large care hate even mention gun control , people seem think \( nyt uses word \) sort automatic weapon , 50 caliber maybe wants thing legal \? well , people know even less cryptology suspect strong cryptography could easily labeled much secrecy law abiding citizens need 's clinton \( anyone \) say , though federal supreme courts say anything constitutionality anything administration governmental agency says opinion best say opinion , matters , continue unless overturned courts reluctant law regulation , going length decide cases grounds furthermore , congress get away quite bit could levy burdensome tax would place enforcement hands batf , 've seen really n't want case could invoke commerce clause seems likely clause get anywhere days 18th required supreme court ruled statute unconstitutional 1970 congress prohibited many drugs , textual nod commerce clause controlled substances act 1970 still stands think government could get away amanda walker pgp 2 key finger e mail eli ebrandt jarthur claremont edu
amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) subject would clipper make good cover encryption method \? organization intercon systems corporation herndon , va usa lines 15 distribution world reply amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) nntp posting host chaos intercon com x newsreader intercon tcp connect ii 1 1 amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) writes n't get arms government fails protect interests people , lifetime never therefore , expectation make sure everyone clear never refers protects , fails protect e , lifetime never seen u government consistently protect interest u citizens , except accident amanda walker intercon systems corporation
pmetzger snark shearson com \( perry e metzger \) subject tapped , code good organization partnership america free drug distribution na lines 14 res colnet cmhnet org \( rob stampfli \) writes would n't second monitor similar type scrolling gibberish adjacent one used provide reasonable resistance tempest attacks \? would different location , directional antenna could probably lock one monitor failing , phased array could likely seperate signals admittedly , expensive , rest stuff anyway perry metzger pmetzger shearson com laissez faire , laissez passer le monde va de lui meme
arussell austin ibm com \( ag russell \) subject shelf cheap des keyseach machine \( corporate acceptance wiretap chip \) originator arussell pal500 austin ibm com organization ibm austin lines 29 article 1993apr21 001230 26384 lokkur dexter mi us , scs lokkur dexter mi us \( steve simmons \) writes smb research att com \( steven bellovin \) writes thousands \? tens thousands \? arithmetic , please skipjack 2 80 possible keys let 's assume brute force engine like hypothesized des 1 microsecond per trial , 1 million chips 's 10 12 trials per second , 38 , 000 years 2 80 trials well , maybe get chips running one trial per nanosecond , build machine 10 million chips sure 3 8 years solution normally 'd last argue steve n't read 3 8 years solutions mean , imagine machine 1 trial nanosecond , imagine storage medium could index archive company worked previously , received file des encryped person sent , went vaction rather wait two weeks set straight frontal attack one key time took two \( 2 \) days crack file , n't faith des g g russell dept section pals group vm id email arussell austin ibm com phone 512 838 7953 678 7953 views , anyone else would look silly free berkeley 4 4
pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) subject white house public encryption management fact sheet article rwing distribution na organization totally unorganized lines 52 article charon gsfc nasa gov paul charon gsfc nasa gov \( paul olson \) writes article transfer stratus com , cme ellisun sw stratus com \( carl ellison \) writes article c5lgaz 250 dove nist gov clipper csrc ncsl nist gov \( clipper chip announcement \) writes , attorney general good post describing store us deleted 's also interesting note two months ago rush limbaugh said clinton would force shortly clinton henchmen firmly believe strong ubiquitous government control anytime leader believes , leader use every means possible retain control take take government back otherwise end living equivalent high tech third world dictatorship take responsibility , personal welfare , actions totally agree propose take government back \? obviously n't listen people want people know \( person site clipper chip release , see entity 'clipper' , got lists another person tried bit later , commands disabled \) sound like administration wants accountability information n't control given people secret development implimentation clipper chip decision backs bet encryption methods software considered 'terrorist tools' also subject civil forfeiture , along systems running watch , see wrong government going cooperative people taking back resources , unlimited access media propeganda , almost guns \( soon guns clinton 's agenda succeeds \) play ball \? waco might good example expect warrant \( released \) stated reason raid bds spent large sum weapons , undetermined amount time n't recall spending lot money guns , etc illegal yet , clinton might go history worst thing ever happen us known democratic republic \( \) big brother listening ! ! ! hail big brother \( sister \? \) ten years late ! ! ! pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc 1 207 \( pat myrto \) seattle , wa else fails , try ! uunet ! pilchuck ! rwing ! pat wisdom two things infinite universe human stupidity , sure former albert einstien
nt com \( steven \) subject need clipper cheap security \? organization northern telecom , inc lines 25 article news intercon com , amanda intercon com \( amanda walker \) wrote one thing clipper offers interoperability , higher degree security currently non proprietary voice encryption systems means cheaper anyone 's proprietary scheme , easier probably cheaper think 'll bet \( \) tax dollars become chips chips n't sell well , 's stop us government away \( interest national security \) \? deploy , course , either bug feature depending look \) amanda walker intercon systems corporation steven p network administrator rtp fast northern telecom , inc replies nt com bounce aol com compuserve com opinions expressed
pdc dcs ed ac uk \( paul crowley \) subject would clipper make good cover encryption method \? reply pdc dcs ed ac uk \( paul crowley \) organization edinburgh university lines 17 quoting strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) article netcom com article 1993apr20 032623 3046 eff org kadie eff org \( carl kadie \) writes , n't think replacements clipper , also think front ends makes sense government prohibits alternative non escrowed encryption schemes otherwise , use front end without clipper \? make private encryption stick like sore thumb government start take sharp interest everything paul crowley pdc dcs ed ac uk trust know i'm x fold fish jesus !
pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) subject tapped , code good article rwing distribution na organization totally unorganized lines 52 article 1993apr20 coop com coop com \( felix \) writes pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) writes clinton clipper good , please note bill clinton probably little anything design , implementation reasoning behind chip behind moves made using chip pawn uh , notice either asked allowed public input , damn sure stopped remember , elect president united states , 's case republicans , etc nsa fbi cia immediately pack bags get replaced team fresh young democrats government say , 96 appointed hired rather elected since clipper device production six months , probably little foundation currently elected democratic executive body , something clinton n't like , come stop , get public input decision \? sure asserted authority things agree bush , notice president , therefore responsible actions branch slightest bit doubt would holding bush reagan standard office thing cast stone btw suggest attack clinton , believe would going ballistic seriously proposed thing another step gradual erosion rights constitution bill rights last couple decades non stop series end runs around protections constitution stop good time , n't late allready could however , sky n't fallen yet , chicken little thanks name calling really makes position credible lenin term folks outlook really much faith honesty government primarily concerned people control \? suspect unpleasant surprise would soon see bud still done , instead waiting yet bill rights , thank pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc 1 207 \( pat myrto \) seattle , wa else fails , try ! uunet ! pilchuck ! rwing ! pat wisdom two things infinite universe human stupidity , sure former albert einstien
pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) subject tapped , code good article rwing distribution na organization totally unorganized lines 45 article 1993apr19 cs ucla edu geoff ficus cs ucla edu \( geoffrey kuenning \) writes article 2073 rwing uucp pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) writes fishing expeditions without target 's knowlege n't give right safe non negotiable , clinton co know \( probably quietly developed thing , figuring get far , ram \) always amazes quick people blame whatever administration current things could n't possibly initiated chip take years develop , yet already 're claiming clinton administration us bullshit bush administration career gestapo responsible horror , presented new presidency fait accompli n't excuse clinton gore criticism stupid go , let 's lay body proper door start correct clinton initiate cast granite , stopping decision also stated another post n't give damn administration , still find totally unacceptable , whoever rams throats ought run office also , bush trying deprive us second amendment rights clinton busting butt regard reveals total difference philosophy clinton appears support idea total people control eavesdropping whenever feel like , real security common person , ability defend oneself illegal attack , whatever source trust us , protect \( control \) n't find inconvenient clinton also shown utter contempt public disclosure accountability , well plenty time change policy expanded bet bush office , would howling louder pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc 1 207 \( pat myrto \) seattle , wa else fails , try ! uunet ! pilchuck ! rwing ! pat wisdom two things infinite universe human stupidity , sure former albert einstien
pdc dcs ed ac uk \( paul crowley \) subject organized lobbying cryptography reply pdc dcs ed ac uk \( paul crowley \) organization edinburgh university distribution inet lines 12 quoting jgfoot minerva cis yale edu article 1r3jgbinn35i eli cs yale edu perhaps encryption types would defend digitized porn posted encrypted \? issues seperable maintain fact , since effective encryption makes censorship impossible , almost issue certainly fall brief eff paul crowley pdc dcs ed ac uk trust know i'm x fold fish jesus !
denning guvax acc georgetown edu subject revised technical summary clipper chip distribution world organization georgetown university lines 167 revised version summary corrects errors provides additional information explanation clipper chip technical summary dorothy denning revised , april 21 , 1993 introduction april 16 , president announced new initiative bring together federal government industry voluntary program provide secure communications meeting legitimate needs law enforcement heart plan new tamper proof encryption chip called clipper chip together split key approach escrowing keys two escrow agencies used , key parts needed reconstruct key chip contents clipper chip contains classified single key 64 bit block encryption algorithm called skipjack algorithm uses 80 bit keys \( compared 56 des \) 32 rounds scrambling \( compared 16 des \) supports 4 des modes operation algorithm takes 32 clock ticks , electronic \( ecb \) mode runs 12 mbits per second chip includes following components skipjack encryption algorithm f , 80 bit family key common chips n , 30 bit serial number \( length subject change \) u , 80 bit secret key unlocks messages encrypted chip chips programmed mykotronx , inc , calls myk 78 silicon supplied vlsi technology inc implemented 1 micron technology initially sell 30 quantities 10 , 000 price drop technology shrunk 8 micron encrypting chip see chip used , imagine embedded telephone security device \( \) suppose call someone device pushing button start secure conversation , security device negotiate 80 bit session key k device end key negotiation takes place without clipper chip general , method key exchange used diffie hellman public key distribution method session key k established , clipper chip used encrypt conversation message stream \( digitized voice \) telephone security device feeds k chip produce two values e k , encrypted message stream , e e k u n f , law enforcement field , transmitted telephone line law enforcement field thus contains session key k encrypted unit key u concatenated serial number n , encrypted family key f law enforcement field decrypted law enforcement authorized wiretap installed ciphertext e k decrypted receiver 's device using session key e k k chip programming escrow clipper chips programmed inside scif \( secure information facility \) , essentially vault scif contains laptop computer equipment program chips 300 chips programmed single session scif located mykotronx beginning session , trusted agent two key escrow agencies enters vault agent 1 enters secret , random 80 bit value s1 laptop agent 2 enters secret , random 80 bit value s2 random values serve seeds generate unit keys sequence serial numbers thus , unit keys function 160 secret , random bits , agent knows 80 generate unit key serial number n , 30 bit value n first padded fixed 34 bit block produce 64 bit block n1 s1 s2 used keys triple encrypt n1 , producing 64 bit block r1 r1 e e n1 s1 s2 s1 similarly , n padded two 34 bit blocks produce n2 n3 , two additional 64 bit blocks r2 r3 computed r2 e e n2 s1 s2 s1 r3 e e n3 s1 s2 s1 r1 , r2 , r3 concatenated together , giving 192 bits first 80 bits assigned u1 second 80 bits u2 rest discarded unit key u xor u1 u2 u1 u2 key parts separately escrowed two escrow agencies sequence values u1 , u2 , u generated , written onto three separate floppy disks first disk contains file serial number contains corresponding key part u1 second disk similar contains u2 values third disk contains unit keys u agent 1 takes first disk agent 2 takes second disk thus agent walks away knowing 80 bit seed 80 bit key parts however , agent know 80 bits used generate keys 80 bit key parts third disk used program chips chips programmed , information discarded vault agents leave laptop may destroyed additional assurance information left behind protocol may changed slightly four people room instead two first two would provide seeds s1 s2 , second two \( escrow agents \) would take disks back escrow agencies escrow agencies yet determined , nsa , cia , fbi , law enforcement agency one may independent government law enforcement use law enforcement authorized tap encrypted line , first take warrant service provider order get access communications line let us assume tap place determined line encrypted clipper chip law enforcement field first decrypted family key f , giving e k u n documentation certifying tap authorized party associated serial number n sent \( e g , via secure fax \) key escrow agents , return \( e g , also via secure fax \) u1 u2 u1 u2 xored together produce unit key u , e k u decrypted get session key k finally message stream decrypted accomplished special black box decoder capstone next generation successor clipper chip , called capstone government myk 80 mykotronx , already developed include skipjack algorithm , digital signature standard \( dss \) , secure hash algorithm \( sha \) , method key exchange , fast , randomizer available testing april 22 , chips expected ready delivery june july acknowledgment distribution notice article based information provided nsa , nist , fbi , mykotronx permission distribute document granted
ns111310 lance colostate edu \( nathaniel sammons \) subject seen lobby , us nntp posting host casco lance colostate edu organization colorado state u engineering college lines 33 article 1993apr21 163929 21149 eff org charles gross acg eff org writes certainly , way cool internet powers organization , act way , action appropriate long kept informed events , anyone bboard make call action hopefully , 're strong enough community act calls realize little , i'm glad eff working loop issues , n't underestimate potential net political action adam speak second motion favor \? btw days ago , charles fee psuvm psu edu posted names , addresses , phone numbers \( voice fax \) almost 103rd congress 's members info , along great number cabinet men , etc captured , many others , sure single people list , bombard lobbying clipper chip , et al nate hate quotations message brought tell know nate sammons , number 42 ralph waldo emerson ns111310 longs lance colostate edu
ariel world std com \( robert l \) subject algorithm secret organization world boston distribution na lines 27 exactly 'll add another observation chip become standard , algorithm wo n't remain secret leaving government remaining option make use un escrowed keys illegal wo n't begin bother terrorists child abusers government fond referring note federalist papers stress one reason right citizens bear arms defend army army imho primary purpose private crypto defend government odd terrorist i'm worried goverment damages quality life every day rob robert ariel world std com 1 508 879 la du , vers une et , le patron du bar , qui de se lever , un en qui dans le , il le gar d'un n de la main , une de vin blanc , un , au vin de min et , la te e en , se text iso 1 universal character set
carl com \( carl shapiro \) subject estimating wiretap costs benefits summary benefits probably greater thought organization las vegas sun lines 16 article 1993apr20 kronos arc nasa gov hanson kronos arc nasa gov \( robin hanson \) writes rough estimate suggests wiretaps worth five million dollars per year u law enforcement agencies \( 1990 , 872 u wiretaps led 2057 arrests , total police expenditures 28 billion led 11 25 million arrests ref us statistical abstracts \) i'm working estimating wiretap benefit accurately , seem assuming arrests equal value , use wiretaps spread uniformly among given comparatively tiny number wiretaps , associated difficulty cost involved \( judges , technicians , etc \) expect law enforcement reserves use wiretaps valuable cases since value arrest vary enormous range \( eg mass murder \) think 5 million estimate may low couple orders magnitude
ebrandt jarthur claremont edu \( eli brandt \) subject secret source announcement organization harvey mudd college , claremont , ca 91711 lines 12 article uwm edu rick miller rick ee uwm edu writes jbotz mtholyoke edu \( jurgen botz \) writes seems like sombody n't like snooping around , marc , likely explanation marc spoofing n't try expansion personally , know least two people got results allegation incorrect best pgp 2 key finger e mail eli ebrandt jarthur claremont edu
mrr scss3 cl msu edu \( mark riordan \) subject dos 6 0 compression api partial answer organization michigan state university lines 21 nntp posting host scss3 cl msu edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 looking information ms dos 6 0 's file system compression api today called microsoft 's dos 6 0 hotline \( 800 \) 228 told dos 6 0 resource kit specifications compression interface resource kit costs 19 95 , plus tax 5 shipping ordered copy post get know posting order turnaround 15 working days anyone knows sure 's 's good source info api , please speak slightly skeptical resource kit 's likelihood detailed programming info mark r mrr ripem msu edu \( posted also sci crypt , since api could presumably also used file system encryption \)
eachus spectre mitre org \( robert eachus \) subject shelf cheap des keyseach machine \( corporate acceptance wiretap chip \) reply mjr tis com 's message 21 apr 1993 21 28 13 gmt nntp posting host spectre mitre org organization mitre corp , bedford , 1993apr20 192105 11751 ulysses att com 1993apr21 001230 26384 lokkur dexter mi us sol tis com lines 19 n't get fooled 2 80 \( possible keys \) league 10 80 \( particles universe \) 2 80 10 25 remember 's number \? many elementary particles \( molecules \) one mole pretty small universe ! put 5 gigabytes one tape , would need 10 trillion tapes \( allowing several bytes per entry \) still existing magnetic media planet , wait years \( i'm including existing audio video cassettes total ten trillion 2 , 000 per person worldwide gives new meaning suspicions messages \) robert eachus standard disclaimer use standard disclaimer function message \( text clever ideas \) return better ideas
dcd se houston geoquest slb com \( dan day \) subject escrow database nntp posting host se houston geoquest slb com organization geoquest system , inc houston lines 17 article 1993apr20 shearson com pmetzger snark shearson com \( perry e metzger \) writes two escrow databases fits conveniently single valuable exabyte tape get easier time , cares already hold clipper keys country pocket two 8mm tapes excellent point , 's related point 'd like make 'll back databases , wo n't \? many tape copies , secure tapes \? store site , would n't hard transit 're kept site , one good bomb attack group intent freeing us threat government snooping take care problem see hi , 're government , um , misplaced copy key could mail us copy \?
ebrandt jarthur claremont edu \( eli brandt \) subject would clipper make good cover encryption method \? organization harvey mudd college , claremont , ca 91711 lines 22 article 1993apr20 032623 3046 eff org kadie eff org \( carl kadie \) writes clipper might good way cover use another layer encryption could somebody provide overview proposed systems using chip \? \( ought see att spec sheet \) skipjack sounds like normal digital encryption algorithm , data path voice digitize compress encrypt compression necessary fit data wire , unless want wait isdn \( lucky \) feeding pre encrypted data compressor cause chuckle 'd tap guts phone hack either compressed data stream , selected parts output stream hits modem unless want pay two fast modems top encryption , plug box phone wall carl pgp 2 key finger e mail eli ebrandt jarthur claremont edu
habs panix com \( harry shapiro \) subject secret source announcement organization panix public access unix , nyc lines 65 slab mtholyoke edu jbotz mtholyoke edu \( jurgen botz \) writes even interesting smtp server csrc ncsl nist gov longer recognizes commands telnet csrc ncsl nist gov smtp trying 129 6 54 11 connected csrc ncsl nist gov escape character ' ' 220 first org sendmail 4 1 nist ready tue , 20 apr 93 17 01 34 edt expn clipper 500 command unrecognized seems like sombody n't like snooping around , marc good thing already mailing list csspab mail gw ncsl nist gov , address clipper mailing list , seems contain basically members nist security board addition names already posted , true names follows burrows ecf james burrows director nist 's national computer systems laboratory mcnulty ecf f lynn mcnulty associate director computer security national institute standards technology 's computer systems laboratory dockmaster ncsc mil director secure systems program wang laboratories inc wrote computer security basics deborah russell g , sr 1991 , o'reilly associates cto citicorp com sandra lambert vice president information security citibank , n mitre org mitre corp 's director information systems gallagher dockmaster ncsc mil patrick gallagher , director national security agency 's national computer security center security board member walker tis com stephen walker computer security expert president trusted information systems , inc , md willis rand org willis h ware rand corp executive chairs security board vnet ibm com william security board member director ibm corp 's data security programs harry shapiro habs panix com list administrator extropy institute mailing list private communication community since 1991 harry shapiro habs panix com list administrator extropy institute mailing list private communication community since 1991
gravity gmu edu \( tim scanlon \) subject secret algorithm clipper chip crypto key escrow summary whatever keywords hmm organization george mason university , fairfax va distribution world expires 06 31 93 lines 65 reading debate clipper , things add first , people know use encryption privately care issues surround debate , questions ok use us care wether using secure , bottom line second , look people know use form encryption , group spans people morons still insist des good secure standard , people looking trying improve upon existing strategies , think anyone would approve blindly strategy leaves methods open abuse clipper , people make mistakes nature , us government made people vulnerable mistakes everyone else third , since people know least familiar vulnerabilities present current software encryption , ca n't see going blindly trust someone figure good way compromise clipper chip despite strengths weaknesses may exist , see high degree confidence developing chip fourth , comes criminal abuse , sure many stupid people yes , open caught via built back door clipper chip however , anyone going serious investigation best secure data going run problem pretty damned fast , would assume , start looking around easily methods encryption nothing else , none would issue however , truth private encryption users 've ever run simply give damn legal status rsa pgp anything else works , use going change either think moment anyone serious criminal intent slowed advent clipper chip easy convert encrypted data garbage , anything , clipper chip adds another tool user bottom line people use works , , i'm sure criminals would rather face encryption related charge one could lead death penalty charges case criminals murder part thing struck since advent wide public encryption begun quite simply cat bag \( interest snooping , pandora 's box opened \) , going change 've seen blindness 've found utterly stunning , clipper chip , along way presented confirms larger degree , tim scanlon gravity gmu edu
ebrandt jarthur claremont edu \( eli brandt \) subject estimating wiretap costs benefits organization harvey mudd college , claremont , ca 91711 lines 23 article netcom com rlglende netcom com \( robert lewis glendenning \) writes first , fuck nasa wasting tax dollars policy papers stuff far outside mission \? n't think 're paying us favor resign rather right paper nasa go useful work society useful \? find estimate annual value law enforcement 5 million quite useful , rough \( e g wiretaps may preferentially used otherwise hard catch criminals , resulting underestimate \) comes twenty cents head u population would find rigorous numbers quite useful would make nice slogans privacy worth 0 37 , whatever turns lew glendenning rlglende netcom com pgp 2 key finger e mail eli ebrandt jarthur claremont edu
makey visicom com \( jeff makey \) subject tapped , code good distribution na organization visicom laboratories , inc , san diego , california lines 15 article c5so84 hxv demon co uk graham toal gtoal gtoal com writes completely baffled dorothy denning chosen throw away academic respectability like n't dorothy denning spent many years earning professional respect colleagues , something manner easily lost support clipper matter unpopular position may serves far enhance clipper 's respectability diminish jeff makey department tautological department disclaimer opinions strictly author domain makey visicom com uucp nosc ! visicom ! makey
koontzd phobos lrmsc loral com \( david koontz \) subject feds troll mutilated law enforcement blocks \? originator koontzd phobos organization loral rolm computer systems lines 121 denning skipjack encryption algorithm f , 80 bit family key common chips n , 30 bit serial number u , 80 bit secret key unlocks messages encrypted chip e k , encrypted message stream , e e k u n f , law enforcement block session key k , transmitted encrypted unit key u along serial number n encrypted family key f presumably protocol recovered \( nothing else , differential analysis \) postulate , chip \( logic \) sitting clipper chip communications channel function spoof chip twofold 1 \) transmit channel spoof chip xors 30 bit encrypted serial number secondary keying variable renders serial number family key 2 \) receive channel spoof chip xors incoming encrypted serial number secondary keying variable \( assuming integrity law enforcement block necessary local operation , sequence control , etc \) net result hiding serial number probable known plaintext pattern used filler block containing n \( 34 bits used generating u , u1 , u2 \) correctness law enforcement block determined family key f whereas , one proposed federal agencies denied f , could recover , correctness serial number tested examining pad bits n e n f one could selectively alter law enforcement block , mutilation could detected better approach would entire law enforcement block done group encryption scheme des \( presumably \) skipjack , chances law enforcement block recovered want bet transmission protocol recognized serial numbers decrypted target search \? digital transmission becomes widely available , would requirement clipper protocol transmissions refused containing mutilated law enforcement blocks \? one way avoid notice , would spoof protocol information block containing , well spoofing law enforcement block goal use secure communications scheme , without redress detection key k interception \( contained encrypted within law enforcement block \) data stream returned original state use clipper chip \( system \) required , proper operation somewhat improbable entire protocol contained within clipper chip , yet likely sequence events tested , requiring valid law enforcement block received accepting decrypting e \( k \) spoof chip could implemented anywhere protocols , including resulting serial data stream existing clipper products could , high security encryption systems right \? super encipherment encryption could allow chip used without redress detection use chip , disclosure serial number security must adequate deny serial number , means one see use cut outs clipper phones , number units high enough , stealing would mistake part authority , nice point privacy , serial number n associated particular clipper chip lot chips manufacturing distribution process hopefully list known missing stolen clipper serial numbers n encrypted f , protocols sufficient plaintext super encrypted clipper stream could made difficult altering temporal spatial relationship clipper stream super encrypted stream detection encrypted stream could tip use aforementioned scheme could capture valid law enforcement blocks , use , point valid law enforcement block stored library utilizing session key matching remainder transmission , could simply lie , yet deliver monitoring hostile forces seemingly valid law enforcement block captured law enforcement blocks would used , manually keyed encryption system would require escalation examining protocols blocks transmission code stream might independently attacked based knowledge clipper chip protocols revealed plaintext could invalidated changing temporal spatial relationship clipper stream actual transmitted stream , control secure key generator synchronized endpoints useful life time captured law enforcement blocks might limited based hostile forces using targets following transmission interception would need large number , , hey 's supposed millions things , right \? adding time stamps encrypted law enforcement block probably impractical , wants encryption chip real time clock \? entire idea law enforcement block invalidated
koontzd phobos lrmsc loral com \( david koontz \) subject feds troll mutilated law enforcement blocks \? organization loral rolm mil spec computers lines 43 code stream might independently attacked based knowledge clipper chip protocols revealed plaintext could invalidated changing temporal spatial relationship clipper stream actual transmitted stream , control secure key generator synchronized endpoints useful life time captured law enforcement blocks might limited based hostile forces using targets following transmission interception would need large number , , hey 's supposed millions things , right \? adding time stamps encrypted law enforcement block probably impractical , wants encryption chip real time clock \? entire idea law enforcement block invalidated thought , could capture law enforcement blocks session keys k use actual transmissions session key n't mind serial number discovered denning sent information new version clipper chip hash function embedded clipper transmission block reflecting law enforcement block , better fall 64 bit block boundaries datum , could lie like randomizer inclusion myk 80 remember reading intel approved random noise source silicon , hence ability put inside ever think mykotronx sounds like one made names companies used fronts intelligence organizations \?
tuinstra signal ece clarkson edu soe \( dwight tuinstra \) subject political point attack clipper infrastructure reply tuinstra signal ece clarkson edu soe organization sun microsystems , inc lines 37 nntp posting host signal ece clarkson edu earlier argument clipper encourage state local cops commit criminal acts largely moot , 've learned fbi perform actual tap encourage fbi commit \( even \) criminal acts , 's point gives another avenue attack clipper proposal eff aclu cpsr foia requests made , ask details bureaucratic equipment infrastructure proposed \( even already budgeted \) fbi service tapping requests projected future figures , estimate number clipper tap requests fbi expecting publish figure compare per capita basis amount tapping known suspected also estimate expensive would fbi install clipper tapping stations , rapidly could built installed ie , get plus minus epsilon near future might disturbing j q public know things despite technical details btw , thanks 've providing ! , still n't know 1 \) tapping requests transmitted authenticated \( though n't hard guess good scheme \) 2 \) results securely transmitted \( fed ex audio tapes \? \) 3 \) privacy established investigation complete dwight tuinstra best tuinstra sandman ece clarkson edu tolerable tuinstrd craft camp clarkson edu homo sapiens planetary cancer \? \? news six
smb research att com \( steven bellovin \) subject clipper corrupt cops \( wh proposal police point view \) organization bell laboratories lines 65 article 1993apr21 16550 news clarkson edu , tuinstra signal ece clarkson edu soe \( dwight tuinstra \) writes clear implication legal authorizations court order leaky \? n't wiretap statute handy 's law says pen registers title 18 u code note vague 3125 \( \) \( 1 \) \( b \) n't chance check 50 u c yet 18 usc pen registers \( 4 93 \) general prohibition pen register trap trace device use exception \( \) general except provided section , person may install use pen register trap trace device without first obtaining court order section 3123 title foreign intelligence surveillance act 1978 \( 50 u c et seq \) 3125 emergency pen register trap trace device installation \( \) notwithstanding provision chapter , investigative law enforcement officer , specially designated attorney general , deputy attorney general , associate attorney general , assistant attorney general , acting assistant attorney general , deputy assistant attorney general , principal prosecuting attorney state subdivision thereof acting pursuant statute state , reasonably determines \( 1 \) emergency situation exists involves \( \) immediate danger death serious bodily injury person \( b \) activities characteristic organized crime , requires installation use pen register trap trace device order authorizing installation use , due , obtained , \( 2 \) grounds upon order could entered chapter authorize installation use may installed use pen register trap trace device , within forty eight hours installation occurred , begins occur , order approving installation use issued accordance section 3123 title \( b \) absence authorizing order , use shall immediately terminate information sought obtained , application order denied forty eight hours since installation pen register trap trace device , whichever earlier \( c \) knowing installation use investigative law enforcement officer pen register trap trace device pursuant subsection \( \) without application authorizing order within forty eight hours installation shall constitute violation chapter
smb research att com \( steven bellovin \) subject clipper considered harmful distribution inet organization bell laboratories lines 19 article agate berkeley edu , shirriff sprite berkeley edu \( ken shirriff \) writes imagine archiving pay phone conversations , someone turns drug dealer , listen past drug deals archive calls suspected mafia members , potential terrorists , radicals , etc imagine convenience police able get warrant listening calls world trade center bombers made past year since archiving would powerful tool easy , would n't happen \? apart storage search requirements , evidence wiretaps require warrant soon one case comes light , previous cases likely discovered , thrown article ny times months ago many convictions state might invalidated relied pen registers court appeals ruled pen registers equivalent wiretaps , hence required warrants new york law
msc edu \( edward \) subject seen lobby , us organization minnesota supercomputer center , minneapolis , mn lines 18 agree notifying elected officials feelings \( , matter \) issue way go way , phone list posted day washington c , elected officials also maintain local office area code elected officials , use local office 's exclusively , fax modem windows print capture software tool choice see words stated , rather summary would called voice left comment office staff edward \( msc edu \) minnesota supercomputer center , inc operations user services 1200 washington avenue south \( 612 \) 626 1888 work minneapolis , minnesota \( 612 \) 645 voice mail disclaimer opinions
marc vanheyningen mvanheyn cs indiana edu subject freely distributable public key cryptography c code \? organization computer science dept , indiana university lines 43 thus said ee92jks brunel ac uk \( jonathan k saville \) \( gpu utcc utoronto ca \) wrote know freely distributable c \( c \) code public key cryptography \( rsa \) \? 've tried various archie searches avail heard pgp \? assume post pgp 2 2 freeware rsa encryption program includes digital signatures comprehensive key management facilities sites also keep source code growing number people using excellent software encrypt \( high standard \) email data get clinton outlaws two many sites rsa com pub pgp soda berkeley edu pub cypherpunks pgp pgp available archive site rsa com , would highly amusing , since rsa com \( actually public key partners , 's entity \) organization holding patents claim violated actually make , use sell pgp believe patents also apply canada , i'm patent lawyer anything thing freely redistributable code rsa used north america without legal may wish consider rsaref , however , available ftp site rsa com rsaref probably n't meet definition freely redistributable \( 's readily available source , c , rsa , md5 , etc comes license allowing noncommercial use like strong crypto software , 's exportable legally modified permission rsadsi , number people received past \) reasons n't entirely clear , rsa says u people take rsaref server , although n't itar issues regarding canada ripem distribution site \( ripem msu edu \) rsaref distribution , ok canadians marc vanheyningen mvanheyn cs indiana edu mime ripem accepted barney dinosaur simply rush limbaugh dinosaur suit lost boy
caronni nessie cs id ethz ch \( germano caronni \) subject questions \( revised summary \) organization swiss federal institute technology \( eth \) , zurich , ch lines 90 revised version summary corrects errors provides additional information explanation thank much reading text distinct questions , guess also asked people perhaps would interesting find answer questions \? clipper chip technical summary n , 30 bit serial number \( length subject change \) shorter longer \? session key k established , clipper chip used encrypt conversation message stream \( digitized voice \) telephone security device feeds k chip produce two values e k , encrypted message stream , e e k u n f , law enforcement field , transmitted telephone line law enforcement field thus contains session key k encrypted unit key u concatenated serial number n , encrypted family key f law enforcement field decrypted law enforcement authorized wiretap installed first question transmitted , remote clipper chip handle \? transmitted periodically stream encrypted blocks , beginning \? phone side discard packets via protocol whatsoever , tries turn voice output \? \( would disturbing \) beginning session , trusted agent two key escrow agencies enters vault agent 1 enters secret , random 80 bit value s1 laptop agent 2 enters secret , random 80 bit value s2 random values serve seeds generate unit keys sequence serial numbers thus , unit keys function 160 secret , random bits , agent knows 80 second question ! \? ! \? strange procedure used , real rng \? turns s1 , s2 kind bottleneck system security law enforcement authorized tap encrypted line , first take warrant service provider order get access communications line let us assume tap place determined line encrypted clipper chip law enforcement field first decrypted family key f , giving e k u n documentation certifying tap authorized party associated serial number n sent \( e g , via secure fax \) key escrow agents , return \( e g , also via secure fax \) u1 u2 u1 u2 xored together produce unit key u , e k u decrypted get session key k finally message stream decrypted accomplished special black box decoder \( technical \) provision taken place warrants \? would unique possibility realize technical restriction , letting escrow agencies perform decoding session key take modem lines instead secure fax bad idea \? successor clipper chip , called capstone government myk 80 mykotronx , already developed include skipjack algorithm , digital signature standard \( dss \) , secure hash algorithm \( sha \) , method key exchange , fast , randomizer available testing april 22 , chips expected ready delivery june july wow ! \( randomizer work \? \) sha \( key exchange \) secret , publicly known \? key exchange dh , guess \? seems opposed chip shall tough time , government realy means act \( friendly greetings , germano caronni instruments register things 're designed register space still contains infinite unknowns pgp key id 341027 germano caronni caronni nessie cs id ethz ch fd560ccf586f3da747ea3c94dd01720f
holland cs colostate edu \( douglas craig holland \) subject screw people , crypto hard core hackers spooks nntp posting host beethoven cs colostate edu organization colorado state university , computer science department lines 42 article senator bedfellow mit edu jfc athena mit edu \( john f carr \) writes cases information come properly use wish , certainly exceptions write paper includes sufficiently detailed information build nuclear weapon , classified understand law , nuclear weapons design automatically classified even work believe allowed read paper hate mess point , incredibly easy learn make nuclear weapon hard part getting put ever read tom clancy 's sum fears \? describes great detail palestinian terrorist group constructed nuclear bomb using stolen \( actually found \) plutonium , help east german nuclear physicist non fiction , read tom clancy 's article five minutes till midnight shows terrorist group could construct nuke using neptunium , low grade radioactive waste product dumped toxic waste sites forgotten also claims information constructing nuke easily found large library sounds kind scary , n't \? \( less serious example tell drivers speed trap run , fined , even though might argue broke law discovered location policeman charge interfering police officer , quite similar would reverse engineering clipper chip n't tell think violates constitution find court cases struck laws many people would fact government violated rights imprisoned n't know whether could get busted warning doug holland doug holland anyone tries take away freedom holland cs colostate edu speech pry pgp key available e mail cold , dead lips ! !
brad optilink com \( brad yearwood \) subject would clipper make good cover encryption method \? organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 19 article j9b netcom com , strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes chances government thought , anyone wo n't permitted access enough internals make fake clipper chip chances government classified details internals high level , manufacturers required observe security safeguards clearances corresponding level assume case usual adversary probably cash kgb , 're probably generous handing easier ever find cultivate keys , easy enough find someone reverse engineer chip \( unless tamper damned clever effective \) brad yearwood brad optilink com uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! brad petaluma , ca
djb silverton berkeley edu \( j bernstein \) subject shelf cheap des keyseach machine organization ir lines 12 article 1993apr21 132318 16981 ulysses att com smb research att com \( steven bellovin \) writes key size one things verified externally gee say feed 80 bit key snefru 8 take first 60 bits result , use 60 bits real key figure key one 2 20 keys \? try birthday attack , key changed second need several lifetimes get reliable statistics somehow n't think could catch nsa sort dan
bear tigger cs colorado edu \( bear giles \) subject secret source announcement nntp posting host tigger cs colorado edu organization national atmospheric adminstration boulder labs distribution inet lines 33 andrew molitor \( amolitor nmsu edu \) wrote 1 \) monitor phonecalls 2 \) monitor usenet may collect data , making sense another matter sci crypt i'm graduate cs major \( strong math background \) experienced programmer taking cryptology course \( keyword alleged nsa filters \) sci skeptic i'm ex physics major 's new age , talking silly things like person 's expectations colors sees talk religion i'm physics geek enjoys interesting idea wasp science , although write occasional posts showing minimal knowledge zen , mythology , etc could go , i'm sure see point i'm single person , react differently different groups \( admittedly , part i'm always shouts , hand \) top , certainty taken public positions past reason challenge conventional wisdom wish luck figuring based information \( probably figure i'm liberal , technical degree interests , common thread throughout posts describes fair portion users internet \) bear giles bear cs colorado edu fsl noaa gov
wcs anchor ho att com \( bill stewart 1 908 949 0705 \) subject open letter mr clinton organization 's apprentice cleaning services reply strnlght netcom com 's message sat , 17 apr 1993 04 41 19 gmt nntp posting host rainier ho att com lines 26 article netcom com strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes 's simple way convert clipper proposal unexceptionable one make voluntary get high quality secure nsa classified technology agree escrow key otherwise 's disturbing part use products voluntary , , press releases talk white house 's unwillingness decide citizens right good commercial crypto gear , commercial alternatives permitted long provide key escrow services 's clear implication 're considering banning alternatives additionally , use real alternatives totally legal 're allowed export really good crypto equipment except government 's friends \( e g australian government \) export even bad crypto equipment permission , regulators control cellular telephone companies make sure two competitors , joe 's garage cellular ca n't start offering secure service pray peace bill bill stewart 1 908 949 0705 wcs anchor att com bell labs 4m312 holmdel nj , i'm new jersey , work cyberspace white house commect line 1 202 456 1111 fax 1 202 456 2461
wcs anchor ho att com \( bill stewart 1 908 949 0705 \) subject clipper considered harmful organization 's apprentice cleaning services distribution inet reply shirriff sprite berkeley edu 's message 21 apr 1993 00 36 44 gmt nntp posting host rainier ho att com lines 24 article agate berkeley edu shirriff sprite berkeley edu \( ken shirriff \) writes article optilink com brad optilink com \( brad yearwood \) writes finally , essentially possibility intercepting realtime content communications stolen instruments , exist strong motivation record archive communications network ex post facto scrutiny \( criminal act discovered , instruments involved identified \) big number long distance network around 20 , 000 t3 trunks \( 45 sec \) , order 10 12 bits sec n't even count amount traffic local phone companies , long distance competitors 's 200 tapes second , pretty large even nsa \) hand , easily see recording traffic interesting people , dissidents , suspected criminals , foreign telephone calls , anybody noticed using encryption ken , recording encrypted traffic probably judged invasion privacy pretty soon pray peace bill bill stewart 1 908 949 0705 wcs anchor att com bell labs 4m312 holmdel nj , i'm new jersey , work cyberspace white house commect line 1 202 456 1111 fax 1 202 456 2461
andersom spot colorado edu \( marc anderson \) subject sorry folks \( read \) nntp posting host spot colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder distribution na lines 32 article 1993apr21 9999 ucsu colorado edu andersom spot colorado edu \( marc anderson \) writes \( date 1 26 93 \) note clinton 's statements encryption 3rd paragraph guess statement n't contradict said , though cut washington \( upi \) war drugs get fresh start , president clinton told delegates national federation police convention washington first speech drug issue since , clinton said planned escalation drug war make everything far seem half hearted practical found source article joke heh heh seemed pretty damn convincing start n't notice smiley end article , hints caught anyway guess turn resemble clinton 's true feelings least extent sorry marc andersom spot colorado edu
microsoft com \( anthony francisco \) subject clipper ranting libertarians organization microsoft corp keywords clipper clinton rant rave libertarians distribution usa lines 11 little nitpicking n't government required standard railway gauge \? n't improve things \? please n't misunderstand i'm utter suspicious clipper chip hold design top secret \? work around law says discoveries made people working government public domain \( e g nih class library , etc \) des designs published place considered fairly strong \( although could stronger \) ants
steve b access digex com \( steve brinich \) subject fear , uncertainty , doubt organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 10 nntp posting host access digex net suspect decisive element political battle fud \( fear , uncertainty , doubt \) factor people would end users cripple chip hear whole debate vaguely government says 's solid people field say 's swiss cheese balance doubt could shift feds attempt limit forms encryption could presented government covering butt protecting poor product superior competition comments \?
subject large commercial keys \? pgut1 cs aukuni ac nz \( peter gutmann \) organization computer science dept university auckland lines 17 1993apr20 ee eng ohio state edu butzerd maumee eng ohio state edu \( dane c butzer \) writes typical sizes keys commercial secret key algorithms \? know des 56 bits \( des 112 bits \) idea 128 bits anything made us 128 bit keys \? anything anywhere larger keys \? 've heard rc2 scaled arbitrarily large keys , actually implemented anywhere \? mdc cipher \( uses one way hash function cfb mode stream cipher , current implementation uses md5 \) uses key 2048 bits \( , use 1 bit key want copy entire 2048 bit range , use entire 2048 bits \) runtime independant key size , system runs slightly slower md5 presume rc2 rc4 use similar system \( possibly hash arbitrary length key n bits , maybe 128 , using something like md5 \) peter
rita eff org \( rita marie \) subject sorry folks \( read \) originator rita eff org nntp posting host eff org organization online distribution na lines 15 article 1993apr22 28445 ucsu colorado edu andersom spot colorado edu \( marc anderson \) writes found source article joke heh heh seemed pretty damn convincing start n't notice smiley end article , hints caught people took article seriously \? mean , know 's net , n't even clinton 's sound bites right rita rita village com
subject tapped , code good pgut1 cs aukuni ac nz \( peter gutmann \) organization computer science dept university auckland lines 48 1993apr21 9999 ucsu colorado edu andersom spot colorado edu \( marc anderson \) writes \( date 1 26 93 \) note clinton 's statements encryption 3rd paragraph guess statement n't contradict said , though cut washington \( upi \) war drugs get fresh start , president clinton told delegates national federation police convention washington first speech drug issue since , clinton said planned escalation drug war make everything far seem half hearted practical purposes war beginning '' repeatedly emphasized view tried , tried , long 've trying , day one '' audience convention , whose theme spell fiscal relief \? f r f e u r e , '' interrupted clinton frequently applause clinton 's program , presented speech , follows outline given campaign position papers cabinet level drug czar first time offenders , however , cover detail plans improved enforcement methods ``this year 's crime bill teeth , bare gums , '' clinton said particular , administration place strict controls data formats protocols , require registration called keys , '' hope denying drug dealers ability communicate secret clinton said approach could used forms underground economic activity , ``the deficit causing tax live luxury expense grandchildren '' clinton expressed optimism drug war even though everyone voted bill clinton last november , everyone vote candidate shares sense urgency fighting drug menace advocates legalization advocates surrender may good making noise , '' clinton said american people cast ballots , proved knew along advocates surrender nothing microscopic fringe '' quick reality check real someone invent provoke reaction people \? sounds like sort thing 'd heard , suitably rephrased , leader certain german political party 1930 's peter
rlglende netcom com \( robert lewis glendenning \) subject estimating wiretap costs benefits organization netcom online communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 13 embarassed , post still circulating experts behavior agree , although restrained speech 8 \) apologized robin hanson lew lew glendenning rlglende netcom com perspective worth 80 iq points niels bohr \( somebody like \)
duck csir co za \( paul \) subject need clipper cheap security \? organization csir , south africa lines 27 nntp posting host csir co za x disclaimer none expressed herein official x disclaimer opinions csir subsidiaries x disclaimer n't freak us anything gtoal gtoal com \( graham toal \) writes someone tell hardware compression needed run digital speech 14 4k \? think 've heard 's lets say 8 bit samples would raw data corresponding sampling rate usable \? , fancy compression need \? 's easy dsp olivetti , example great pc sorry plug , folks , olivetti n't seem good job marketing \) includes sound hardware provide dsp produce bit rates 's one gives pretty acceptable voice quality sec , right v 32bis modem dsp play record time , would n't need play two way radio also download code dsp , though 'd need software development kit dsp question dunno wanted produce vocoder , say , v 32 speeds paul paul duck csir co za csir computer virus lab box 395 pretoria 0001 africa
uni duesseldorf de \( lannert \) subject facinating facts 30 bit serial number , possibly fixed s1 s2 organization , heinrich heine universitaet , duesseldorf lines 40 nntp posting host lannert rz uni duesseldorf de article pmetzger snark shearson com pmetzger snark shearson com \( perry e metzger \) writes hmmm must assume generating unit key u serial number n rather generating randomly selected u1 u2 intentional way assuring fail safe government u determined given s1 , s2 n s1 s2 change , even remain secret wonder somehow back derived given enough unit key serial number pairs maybe 300 pairs suffice reconstruct s1 s2 \? back door \( encryption algorithm perhaps \) would possible \( manufacturer \) get keys chips programmed one session would , btw , enable anybody else retrieve keys way 'll never get bunch 300 \( n , u \) pairs identical s1 s2 \( note constant whole batch nature procedure , e , typed manually number supplying ! \) wondering 'll always 300 chips one session since procedure described ms denning imposes high costs production every chip \( least three persons one hour , plus cost laptop finally blown pieces spectacular , hollywood like add travelling expenses , drinks lighting , divide sum 300 \) wo n't larger demand private sector anyway let mention one thought certainly occurred notoriously paranoid people group going verify interested party perform tempest attacks vault \? \? 's much smoke mirrors ca n't nice , honest fire something really worth hiding lannert e mail rz uni duesseldorf de pgp 2 2 key via server finger lannert rz uni duesseldorf de oh , 're smith , \? preliminary p , however , sounded p g
smb research att com \( steven bellovin \) subject shelf cheap des keyseach machine organization bell laboratories lines 16 article 7020 05 silverton berkeley edu , djb silverton berkeley edu \( j bernstein \) writes article 1993apr21 132318 16981 ulysses att com smb research att com \( steven bellovin \) writes key size one things verified externally gee say feed 80 bit key snefru 8 take first 60 bits result , use 60 bits real key figure key one 2 20 keys \? try birthday attack , key changed second need several lifetimes get reliable statistics 're right , retract suggestion still , wonder 60 bits key information , principle , detectable maybe variant tests rivest et al demonstrate des probably group \? make interesting paper black box analysis cryptosystem
whughes lonestar utsa edu \( william w hughes \) subject tempest nntp posting host lonestar utsa edu organization university texas san antonio distribution na lines 32 article 1993apr22 infodev cam ac uk rja14 cl cam ac uk \( ross anderson \) writes res colnet cmhnet org \( rob stampfli \) writes would n't second monitor similar type scrolling gibberish adjacent one used provide reasonable resistance tempest attacks \? 've got tempest receiver lab , 's difficulty picking individual monitors engineering tolerances slack enough tend radiate different frequencies even overlap , discriminate different line synch frequencies lock one average others signals weird case , varying sorts interactions building moving folded around also highly effective \( \) means switching one monitor another , hell , set spark jammer , electrically noisy device build active cage around room , noise signal piped measures totally mask emissions equipment , provide sufficient interference make remote monitoring proposition , best , course , consideration measures may \( almost \) cause certain amount interference systems 's matter balancing security versus convenience btw , i'm ex air force telecommunications systems control supervisor telecommunications cryptographic equipment technician remember waco ! government decide murder next \? maybe \? opinions mine n't care blame university state
pom anke uni mainz de \( prof dr klaus \) subject des init vector additional key \? keywords des , cbc , cfb , key search nntp posting host anke uni mainz de organization johannes gutenberg universitaet mainz lines 15 recent discussion news group suggests key search attack des quite feasible normally des applied cbc cfb mode one chooses random init vector 8 bytes questions makes sense handle init vector additional key \? 56 64 120 bit key yes anything known security key scheme \? break faster exhaustive search 120 bit key space \? klaus institut fuer statistik und der johannes gutenberg universitaet strasse 69 , w 6500 mainz , germany
lfoard hopper virginia edu \( lawrence c foard \) subject tapped , code good organization itc uva community access unix internet project lines 16 article 1993apr22 cs aukuni ac nz pgut1 cs aukuni ac nz \( peter gutmann \) writes article deleted quick reality check real someone invent provoke reaction people \? sounds like sort thing 'd heard , suitably rephrased , leader certain german political party 1930 's sounds like joke \( war drugs always joke \) join pythagorean reform church ! repent evil irrational numbers bean eating ways accept 10 heart ! call pythagorean reform church bbs 508 793 9568
phred uucp \( harry barnett \) subject text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption reply phred uucp organization control lines 48 article yuma acns colostate edu , holland cs colostate edu \( douglas craig holland \) writes article 1993apr19 afterlife ncsc mil rlward1 afterlife ncsc mil \( robert ward \) writes article bontchev 734981805 fbihh bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de writes since us constitutions guarantees right every american bear arms , every american entitled , matter read applicable part constitution interpreted context \? , please posting misinterpretation refers right people organize militia , individuals carry handguns , grenades , assault rifles read constitution second amendment says right bear arms shall infringed , well regulated militia may easily formed interpretation second shows qualifications right keep bear arms want , e mail way , gun talk belongs talk politics guns doug holland mr ward , start blathering skill interpreting constitution , might helpful learn read review high school english teacher emphasizing phrases , might start second amendment , follow 97th congress , 2nd session , committee print , right keep bear arms , constitution committee judiciary , united states senate , 97th congress , second session , february , 1982 gpo 88 618 authoritative , heavily researched document clearly turns interpretation specious claptrap , polite way saying utter bullshit spite false assertion contrary , second amendment protect right individual citizen , capacity individual , keep bear arms , mr holland , imho , blatantly false information , asserted fact globally distributed , deserves globally distributed rebuttal forum posted \( besides , site n't carry p g \) phred data io com phred ! data io com free man shall ever use arms strongest reason people retain right keep bear arms , last resort , protect tyranny government thomas jefferson
borut b lavrencic ijs si subject secret source announcement reply borut b lavrencic ijs si distribution inet organization j stefan institute , lj , slovenia lines 61 article netcom com , grady netcom com \( 1016 2ef221 \) writes andrew molitor \( amolitor nmsu edu \) wrote 1 \) monitor phonecalls 2 \) monitor usenet 3 \) provide cryptosystems easily crack 4 \) etc etc say n't , might n't know , evidence , almost values follows , therefore , values 'you' , claims nsa border paranoia andrew maybe germans little 'paranoid' respect turing british cracking zimmerman \? would little paranoia helped germans \? maybe nsa little 'paranoid' emma , joseph sidney petersen , jr , maybe want talk macmillan publishers cooperation cia nsa suppress 's japanese diplomatic secrets even kahn 's codebreakers paranoia , right \? popular cipher systems captured soviet spies one time pad , even necessity keeping incriminating evidence , known proven unbreakable system soviet paranoia , right \? think nsa \? huge pointed embassy row \? sites near satellite uplink downlink sites \? duh grady netcom com 2ef221 15 e2 ad d3 d1 c6 f3 fc 58 ac f7 3d 4f 01 1e 2f one case paranoia upon time tried walk \( famous \) marathon field , far away athens could mostly field huge antenna farm probably greek comint installation , would agree \? borut b lavrencic , sc x 400 c si mail p ac ijs lavrencic j stefan institute internet borut b lavrencic ijs si university ljubljana , phone 386 1 159 199 si ljubljana , slovenia pgp public key available request
pdc dcs ed ac uk \( paul crowley \) subject need clipper cheap security \? reply pdc dcs ed ac uk \( paul crowley \) organization edinburgh university lines 12 quoting pmetzger snark shearson com \( perry e metzger \) article 1993apr21 shearson com whats difference v 32bis modem v 32bis modem \? fast fastest modems go \? far voice compressed \? 've seen various assertions , anyone straightforward bits per second figures friend forever paul crowley pdc dcs ed ac uk trust know i'm x fold fish jesus !
pdc dcs ed ac uk \( paul crowley \) subject hard drive security fbi targets reply pdc dcs ed ac uk \( paul crowley \) organization edinburgh university lines 14 forgot n't much credibility 'd like , consider alternative somewhere hard disk , duplicated times , keep 128 bit random number 128 bit digest passphrase computed , random number used key hard disk writing random junk random numbers makes hard disk unreadable anyone , merely claim written random junk xor key , one would able tell whether telling truth \( \) , \( b \) rubber hose cryptography , otherwise effective paul crowley pdc dcs ed ac uk trust know i'm x fold fish jesus !
cus cam ac uk \( g \) subject alt security pgp nntp posting host bootes cus cam ac uk organization u cambridge , england lines 25 begin pgp signed message hi anyone know unix utility allowing encrypted telnet sessions using public key \? 'd like something nobody snoop password session text i'm logging remotely network thanks g please report unsigned \( hence \) messages purportedly , sent 22 04 93 cus cam ac uk begin pgp signature version 2 2 end pgp signature
uucp \( allen baum \) subject 80 bit keyseach machine organization advanced risc machines ltd lines 13 jebright magnus acs ohio state edu \( james r ebright \) writes \( regarding nsa monitoring us military code traffic \) btw , folks , nsa n't given keys walker spy case shows systems , kgb n't need either contrary walker spy case one kgb given keys \( recall \) allen j baum apple computer baum apple com , co uk
netcom com \( p h \) subject open letter mr clinton organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 105 ld231782 lance colostate edu \( l detweiler \) writes i'm quite astonished , shocked , appalled serious frontal assault emerging american freedoms clinton administration government agency legitimate role whatsoever regulating cryptography tantamount regulating speech , blatantly unconstitutional perhaps rename year honor illustrious proposal let crappy chip live infamy , adminstration receive great shame discredit bizarre imho , encryption \( also \) protected second amendment constitution united states outraged tax money used develop technology restrict freedoms far beyond reasonable measures u government full disobedience serious threat liberties , call everyone interest sensible government resist defy proposal administration seem understand merely subservient instrument implement public , hence anyone involved proposal respect wholly negligent remiss performing lawful duty surprised administration could told cryptography neutral technology everybody strong cryptography \( including policemen , , businessmen , , thugs \) , sustainable equilibrium anything less anti arrangement , intrinsically antithetical american freedoms , guaranteed collapse weight inherent n't need compromise issues freedom privacy always something effect restricting ability prosecute criminals supposed presumption innocence right pull curtains windows close door , police may come perform home , find means simply looking encryption data window curtains home simple enough \? long government demonstrated increasingly hostile serious obstacle economic vitality protecting americans yet people vote people come lie promising fix things administration committed leaving private industries alone , esp issue government legitimate role regulating content communications law enforcement agencies must prepared forfeit surveillance bludgeon soon inevitably disarmed mean might go back actually working job \? oh heavens laws constitutionally sound , equivalent veiled threat , n't appreciate kind extortion tends others radicalism trade threats threats , violation violation perhaps first amendment definitely second fifth administration say , would find reckless outrageous disregard essential , established , entrenched , explicit constitutional privacy guarantees administration would legal standing whatsoever action would illegal criminal , wholly disregarded vast segments population unfortunately , vast segments population misinformed n't appended sr name country , yet outright denning lie two aims privacy surveillance intrinsically fundamentally incompatible , work nsa think otherwise americans discover ways , use technology , preserve inalienable forgotten freedoms slowly eroded away increasingly distant government seriously doubt nsa thinks privacy surveillance compatible doubt smart person agency thinks , either problem simply hold privacy value phil howard , netcom com , spell protection \? 1 \( 911 \) a1 right wing conservative capitalists separate money left wing liberal separate everything else ! !
jhan debra dgbt doc ca \( jerry han \) subject overreacting \( tapped , code good \) nntp posting host debra dgbt doc ca organization communications research centre , ottawa distribution na lines 36 giant bally ho clipper chip noticed rather disturbing trend e mail posts 've tossing back forth somebody asked wrong overreacting cases reason simple many people want die riot \? new civil war \? everybody jumping screaming , i'm worried people going reach hammers rifles pens paper people work within system trying break \? examine history books , find many armed revolutions led democratic \( democratic style \) governments think 'll find one five thousand years written history 's good odds somebody said something like armed violence meant used response armed attack meant used agression difference self defence murder let 's try avoid killing things , eh \? 's enough blood shed world , without adding couple riots , civil wars , etc i'm probably overreacting 've read scared lot n't want children growing war zone jerry han crc doc div behavioural research jhan debra dgbt doc ca opinions , opinions proud frozen member mighty warriors band memories 've left behind , still ringing ears genesis
rja14 cl cam ac uk \( ross anderson \) subject tempest nntp posting host ely cl cam ac uk organization u cambridge computer lab , uk distribution na lines 19 res colnet cmhnet org \( rob stampfli \) writes would n't second monitor similar type scrolling gibberish adjacent one used provide reasonable resistance tempest attacks \? 've got tempest receiver lab , 's difficulty picking individual monitors engineering tolerances slack enough tend radiate different frequencies even overlap , discriminate different line synch frequencies lock one average others signals weird case , varying sorts interactions building moving folded around also highly effective \( \) means switching one monitor another , ross
smb research att com \( steven bellovin \) subject \( new \) reason clipper secrecy organization bell laboratories lines 31 article 1993apr20 news clarkson edu , tuinstra signal ece clarkson edu soe \( dwight tuinstra \) writes first , note experts look details , algorithm addition , respected experts outside government offered access confidential details algorithm assess capabilities publicly report findings chip design \? well , 's possiblity addition encryption , chip pre processes voice signals make easier analyze electronically chip , widespread , might effectively part massively parallel computer voice us phone network \( criminal wrong thinking patrons thereof \) first , chip n't runs 16 second , far beyond need voice 's obviously intended data well , high speed lines second advantage processing phone \? n't care fancy chip 's fancy fort meade running program 'll 5 years ca n't update every clipper chip 's third chip , would probably serious effect voice patterns nothing else , would hurt product v 32bis modems barely fast enough good job properly massaged voice add mix , 're completely ballpark
steve b access digex com \( steve brinich \) subject s1 , s2 organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 13 nntp posting host access digex net second question ! \? ! \? strange procedure used , real rng \? turns s1 , s2 kind bottleneck system security theory makes sense s1 s2 either chips , vary among possibilities , anyone trying break encryption brute force need plow possible serial numbers \( 2 30 , one billion \) , multiplied number different s1 , s2 combinations
rj ri cadre com \( rob \) subject des code shipped canada \? article fripp 1993apr22 reply rj ri cadre com organization cadre technologies inc lines 13 nntp posting host 192 9 200 19 someone canada asked send public domain des file encryption code legal send \? thanx obfuscation rob mail rj ri cadre com cadre technologies inc phone \( 401 \) 351 222 richmond st fax \( 401 \) 351 providence , ri n't speak employer
sheol concert net subject clipper considered harmful lines 59 shirriff sprite berkeley edu \( ken shirriff \) message id agate berkeley edu seems likely large subset encrypted communications would archived tape could read sometime future probable cause arises warrant obtained think unlikely data like could used court currently install wiretaps large numbers phones , record calls without listening , post facto obtain warrants listen calls probable cause established strategy would n't get stuff admitted court \( least , near term \) words , near tell , thing makes evidence interception without warrant , attempt interpret intercepted without warrant 'd surprised archiving data without consent would interpreted anything analogous wiretap courts note n't mean think wo n't done technically feasible i'm sure many wiretaps done without warrants , fish avenues investigate future , start , start archiving data , trump probable cause , decrypt post facto warrant hand , investigation gets boost data , sadly , wo n't ever presented jury i'm posting interesting tale projecting archiving scenario extremes , read friends , collection sf stories david drake us starts slippery slope archiving n't worry folks , 's stored secure repository nobody warrants get way , 'll installing cameras major streets hey , nothing new , already cameras banks machines , n't \? 'll pass laws requiring cameras covering public places private places 'll make crime ever range camera , except legally licensed privacy alone thorough body search , see , 's still right privacy n't rights , really think much easier 'd solve crimes situation obtain warrant , put vr helmet take walk memory lane hey , nobody 'll tracking , need self conscious , 're anything illegal funny , though speeding radar detector industry became pretty much thing past , somehow n't crime story somehow , politicians got exemptions grounds national security , rich corporations got exemptions execs grounds industrial espionage preservation competition everybody exactly happy system ca n't imagine wayne sheol concert net concert net
grady netcom com \( 1016 2ef221 \) subject idea vectors \? organization capriccioso x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 11 testing idea block cipher implementations correctness needs golden test vectors 've looked postscript idea chapter single example gives zero degrees freedom 'll contact inventor necessary since paying money use invention , 'd like anybody got vectors \? \( disease vectors , please \) grady netcom com 2ef221 15 e2 ad d3 d1 c6 f3 fc 58 ac f7 3d 4f 01 1e 2f
clipper csrc ncsl nist gov \( clipper chip announcement \) subject secret source announcement organization national institute standards technology lines 65 article panix com habs panix com \( harry shapiro \) writes slab mtholyoke edu jbotz mtholyoke edu \( jurgen botz \) writes even interesting smtp server csrc ncsl nist gov longer recognizes commands telnet csrc ncsl nist gov smtp trying 129 6 54 11 connected csrc ncsl nist gov escape character ' ' 220 first org sendmail 4 1 nist ready tue , 20 apr 93 17 01 34 edt expn clipper 500 command unrecognized seems like sombody n't like snooping around , marc good thing already mailing list csspab mail gw ncsl nist gov , address rest names deleted sigh version asked whether really want send posting ! may well know stuff secret source clipper announcement silly mistake administrator csrc ncsl nist gov , alias first org 's system set help needs first , forum incident response security teams , includes number world wide incident response teams cc places europe expn commands , normally disabled , since early n't want crackers find names incident response folks mailing lists disk crash several months ago required completely rebuilding files old story , backups n't especially helpful guess , n't remember disable expn saw people net trying find behind clipper csrc saw people 's names posted , felt time clear things , expn csrc always disabled past reasons nothing clipper posted white house announcements request policy folks csrc also provides usenet service posted account called ' also created alias called 'clipper' contains addresses members nist computer security privacy advisory board , set law computer security act 1987 , addresses individuals affiliated nist involved cryptography , security , privacy believe individuals included list nist felt important get clipper information first hand 'clipper' alias benefit named source information , set solely monitor initial traffic individuals list requested continue get traffic already duplicated usenet rightfully say bit disorganized handling , would ask people stop speculating hidden agendas motives individuals 'clipper' alias 've already apologized 's happened disabling expn increasingly common practice \( albeit unfriendly \) , effect disabling unintentional john wack
karl genesis mcs com \( karl denninger \) subject need clipper cheap security \? organization mcsnet , chicago , il lines 39 nntp posting host localhost mcs com article pizzabox demon co uk gtoal gtoal com \( graham toal \) writes gtoal gtoal com \( graham toal \) writes uk , 's impossible get approval attach crypto device phone network \( anything plugs bt phone sockets must approved reason crypto devices never \) whats difference v 32bis modem v 32bis modem \? i'm entirely silly i'm pointing modems already approved data transmission work fine transmit scrambled voice absolutely meant secure dedicated crypto device ever given approval guerrilla underground devices well possible today 's high speed modems \( think many v32bis modems approved either mind overpriced couriers \) someone tell hardware compression needed run digital speech 14 4k \? think 've heard 's lets say 8 bit samples would raw data corresponding sampling rate usable \? , fancy compression need \? reasonably fancy standard voice circuits run inter exchange us therefore , need achieve 4 1 get standard voice quality 're willing give quality , need 2 1 still acceptable speech standpoint little less faithful original , certainly 's really need application karl denninger \( karl genesis mcs com \) never please everyone except data line 1 312 248 0900 live internet chicago mcsnet first !
croley magic mcc com \( david croley \) subject new encryption organization mcc experimental systems lab lines 48 article 1993apr21 wam umd edu , psionic wam umd edu \( haywood j \) writes promised , spoke today company mentioned washington times article clipper chip announcement name company secure communications technology \( information given end message contact \) belief made known clipper well rest industry several reasons , several good point obviously knew participated development clipper chip amounts unfair business practice gives early monopoly market hopefully non existant market companies compete cellular market \( motorola , nec , etc \) grounds file complaint right company afraid new clipper chip put business real possibility really need help stopping clipper chip becoming standard want contact , reached secure communications technology georgia ave suite 302 silver spring , md \( 301 \) 588 2200 would seem one fact government overlooked whole fiasco economic standpoint others mentioned , difficulty clipper chip faces economic one let 's face , average consumer n't care know clipper bad idea perceived need cellular encryption , companies provide one likely , standard emerge clipper expensive \( 25 chip way much \) develope buy cheaper one give sct full support , hope clipper chip goes way beta video tape format also hope get sued using name clipper cyberspace david croley mcc exp sys lab place real , stone , steel croley mcc com ut austin , texas ghost unseen world
den mmc com \( \) subject looking crypto paper distribution usa organization martin marietta astronautics , denver lines 17 nntp posting host den mmc com looking postscript tex version paper called public key cryptography written james security technology group national computer systems laboratory national institute standards technology gaithersburg , md december 1990 version obtained plain text symbolic character formatting lost den mmc com
steve b access digex com \( steve brinich \) subject overreacting \( tapped , code good \) organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 13 distribution na nntp posting host access digex net somebody asked wrong overreacting cases reason simple many people want die riot \? new civil war \? precisely government must cut knees pulls stunts like , lest situation worsen point extreme measures required
msnyder nmt edu \( rebecca snyder \) subject public awareness \( text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption \) organization new mexico tech distribution na lines 50 article rwing uucp pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) writes think accident comes philosophy government rules controls people , people controlling government , unconnected citizens sophisticated enough know best , government must tell people need need know best idea defend government eavesdropping unlawful attack totally unacceptable people outlook combine pushing national identity cards encode anything please \( internal passport \) guise state people 's health care system , \( certain \) yet come , one sees extremely ominous trend 1984 ten years late still turning amazingly accurate prophecy unless lot people wake , hurry one always every red warning light bell danger flag come government seeks set apart regard rights , etc unconnected citizen \( saying instead \? \) average person good , secure system data security , dependent nebulous maintaining security \? average person able defend agency gone rogue \? 0i sure feds could break data really wanted \( would take work \) , using logic , one allowed good safe , unless duplicate key \( \) combination submitted government \? n't really see difference , philosophically encrypted data sure wo n't , high tech tools tape recorder average today seems think government able eavesdrop everyone \( else \) opinion polls show people belive bill rights grant much freedom people , identified \( btw , anyone knows cite , 'd love \) mean people willing give everyone \( else 's \) rights , n't even know bill rights actually says show average person \( average usenet reader \) people actually rights \? many people n't care government taking control us , little time sort awareness government trying majority us population think could accomplished many trust , , whatever media government tell
jon c r bennett jb7m andrew cmu edu subject ideas clipper organization robotics institute , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 92 nntp posting host andrew cmu edu idea encryption algorithm needs keep secret , things think implies \( course could wrong \) clipper chip technical summary dorothy denning revised , april 21 , 1993 clipper chip contains classified single key 64 bit block encryption algorithm called skipjack algorithm uses 80 bit keys \( compared 56 des \) 32 rounds scrambling \( compared 16 des \) supports 4 des modes operation algorithm takes 32 clock ticks , electronic \( ecb \) mode runs 12 mbits per second chip includes following components skipjack encryption algorithm f , 80 bit family key common chips n , 30 bit serial number \( length subject change \) u , 80 bit secret key unlocks messages encrypted chip encrypting chip see chip used , imagine embedded telephone security device \( \) suppose call someone device pushing button start secure conversation , security device negotiate 80 bit session key k device end key negotiation takes place without clipper chip general , method key exchange used diffie hellman public key distribution method session key k established , clipper chip used encrypt conversation message stream \( digitized voice \) telephone security device feeds k chip produce two values e k , encrypted message stream , e e k u n f , law enforcement field , transmitted telephone line law enforcement field thus contains session key k encrypted unit key u concatenated serial number n , encrypted family key f law enforcement field decrypted law enforcement authorized wiretap installed suppose knew algorithm worked knew n chip , know f , cryptanalysis might able determine f law enforcement field e e k u n f knowing n would might make much harder suppose know f , \( either legitimately \) , know k \( either involved conversation , know u party conversation \) , may able determine u party know f also defeat law enforcement field , since could make , different k one using knowing f also allows traffic analysis performed might know saying could know saying admit someone trying compute u lots messages work , since way knowing key generation method \( deliberately \? \) generate weak keys , matter published method fact used , perhaps u 's chosen know weak keys system obviously compromise f would disaster , law enforcement whole thing designed , people believe giving security f one number , sure alot people \( 1 \) know \( panel experts going check flaws many know f , forget grinding chips , bribery blackmail work fine , wrong \? problems jon
pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) subject tapped , code good article rwing distribution na organization totally unorganized lines 17 article access digex net steve b access digex com \( steve brinich \) writes wonder landed fat fee cooperation nsa design propoganda stages n't care \? say nsa totally , least redeeming virtue taking care \? g course take care well person undefined becomes consideration \) pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc 1 207 \( pat myrto \) seattle , wa else fails , try ! uunet ! pilchuck ! rwing ! pat wisdom two things infinite universe human stupidity , sure former albert einstien
ted nmsu edu \( ted \) subject shelf cheap des keyseach machine \( corporate acceptance wiretap chip \) organization computing research lab lines 36 1993apr21 001230 26384 lokkur dexter mi us c5uvn4 mf7 austin ibm com strnlghtc5wcmo fx5 netcom com nntp posting host nmsu edu reply strnlght netcom com 's message thu , 22 apr 1993 17 59 12 gmt article strnlghtc5wcmo fx5 netcom com strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes company worked previously , received file des encryped person sent , went vaction rather wait two weeks set straight frontal attack one key time took two \( 2 \) days crack file , n't faith des taking face value \( though seems quite dissonant much else published brute force des cracking , unless russell lucky respect key \) , 'd interested whether program russell used available \? key search practical many real situations since people use stupid keys average password crackers know well depending answer , could appalling development calling question des rsa des really fact , public key based communication systems often pick keys automatically much better passwords pass phrases bright programmer little idle machine time crack single des message couple days \( assuming tricks message specific \) , person picked password pass phrase , key search pretty straightforward running english text , average content single word 8 bits pass phrases , may increase 10 bits searching spaces semi practical even software searching spaces n't outrageous imagine hardware assists moderate size
subject organized lobbying cryptography kubo zariski harvard edu \( tal kubo \) distribution inet organization dept math , harvard univ nntp posting host zariski harvard edu lines 27 article dcs ed ac uk pdc dcs ed ac uk \( paul crowley \) writes perhaps encryption types would defend digitized porn posted encrypted \? issues seperable maintain fact , since effective encryption makes censorship impossible , almost issue certainly fall brief eff also falls within aclu , n't mean aclu \( eff \) would effective instrument win hearts minds favor access cryptography 's precisely slogans like cryptography makes censorship impossible stand torpedo attempt generate broad consensus favor encryption true , context public debate would dangerous red herring advocates strong crypto better prepare answer charges pragmatic terms politicians sympathize usual constitutional amendments enough tal kubo math harvard edu
montagar com \( david l cathey \) subject secret source announcement organization montagar software concepts , plano tx lines 19 article netcom com , grady netcom com \( 1016 2ef221 \) writes maybe start newsgroup distribution encrypted posts intended members affinity groups shared private key example coming cypherpunks meeting , private key corresponding particular meeting could passed moderator minutes , followup comments participants , could posted alt encrypted group use people attended intended group non attendees could course signed using private key encrypted like pgp would useful , guess although n't working version vms yet \( grady netcom com 2ef221 15 e2 ad d3 d1 c6 f3 fc 58 ac f7 3d 4f 01 1e 2f david l cathey inet montagar com montagar software concepts uucp ! montagar ! p box , plano tx fone \( 214 \) 618
linet org \( red \) subject tapped , code good distribution na organization utter chaos , long island , new york \( think \) lines 26 article 1993apr20 celestial com bill celestial com \( bill campbell \) writes netcom com strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes article apr18 194927 17048 yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu \( douglas craig holland \) writes note measures protect tempest surveillance still classified , far know think inaccurate one buy tempest equipment commercially even macs sure buy tempest approved mac enough money n't reason look type pricing 10 years , tempest rating 1982 would raise price 2 , 495 00 radio shack model iii something around 15 , 000 00 dig deep enough hole ground 50 feet linet org rs self possession 9 10 law alien control laws nature ! come 's human , 's joel still dress way \? abortion , 's chicken , \( 17 vs \) 's \? george
gtoal gtoal com \( graham toal \) subject let 's build software cryptophones internet lines 92 well , lot archives , found post reproduce full time get together develop tcp ip standard crypto voice could layer point point slip free standard crypto voice like pgp mail \? \( ps note date post appropriate , huh \? \) \) afterlife ncsc mil thu jul 9 11 50 11 1992 afterlife ncsc mil \( joe campbell \) newsgroups comp compression research subject sound compression algorithms date 4 jul 92 14 46 04 gmt organization great beyond article sequent com sequent com \( lou fernandez \) writes techniques production systems revolve around code excited linear prediction \( celp \) algorithms capture 20 ms speech attempt match speech combination signals , choosing combination error case 'd like experiment celp , obtain software implementation 4800 bps fed std celp coder free u dod 's federal standard 1016 based 4800 bps code excited linear prediction voice coder version 3 2 \( celp 3 2 \) fortran c simulation source codes available worldwide distribution charge \( dos diskettes , configured compile sun sparc stations \) bob national communications system washington , c 1 703 692 1 703 746 \( fax \) addition source codes , example input processed speech files included along technical information bulletin assist implementation fs 1016 celp \( anonymous ftp site considered future releases \) copies actual standard federal standard 1016 , telecommunications analog digital conversion radio voice 4 , 800 bit second code excited linear prediction \( celp \) available 2 50 rm 7th st sw washington , c 1 202 708 following articles describe federal standard 1016 4 8 kbps celp coder \( 's unnecessary read one \) campbell , joseph p jr , thomas e c welch , federal standard 1016 4800 bps celp voice coder , digital signal processing , academic press , 1991 , vol 1 , 3 , p 145 155 campbell , joseph p jr , thomas e c welch , dod 4 8 kbps standard \( proposed federal standard 1016 \) , advances speech coding , ed atal , , academic publishers , 1991 , chapter 12 , p 121 133 campbell , joseph p jr , thomas e c welch , proposed federal standard 1016 4800 bps voice coder celp , speech technology magazine , april may 1990 , p 58 64 u fed std 1016 \( 4800 bps celp \) realtime dsp code information products using code , contact john dsp software engineering 165 middlesex , suite 206 bedford , 01730 1 617 275 1 617 275 \( fax \) bedford channel1 com dsp software engineering 's code run dsp research 's tiger 30 board \( pc board analog interface suited development work \) 's based 3 2 5 card dsp research 1095 e duane ave p box sunnyvale , ca 94086 mclean , va 22102 \( 408 \) 773 1042 \( 703 \) 442 \( 408 \) 736 \( fax \) \( 703 \) 442 \( fax \) joe campbell afterlife ncsc mil 305 compuserve com opinions mine ! happiness reality expectations , click clack
sean dra com subject fighting clipper initiative organization data research associates , st louis mo lines 22 article rhyolite wpd sgi com , rhyolite wpd sgi com \( vernon \) writes article netcom com , strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes even department agriculture successfully kept crop leaking prematurely sheesh ! remember big scandal year two \( 3 \? \) ago exactly leaks \? choice house would smithsonian , someplace west coast biggest concern n't escrow house could compromised \( \) , fact compromised kept secret keys could kept glass , 24 hour c span coverage thought key stolen turn cable , wait camera case key think c span satellite compromised , take tour smithsonian , view seal key sean , data research associates , inc , st louis , mo domain sean dra com , voice \( work \) 1 314 432 1100
gtoal gtoal com \( graham toal \) subject let 's build software cryptophones internet lines 27 forwarded old posting celp speech compression case 'd like experiment celp , obtain software implementation 4800 bps fed std celp coder free u dod 's federal standard 1016 based 4800 bps code excited linear prediction voice coder version 3 2 \( celp 3 2 \) fortran c simulation source codes available worldwide distribution charge \( dos diskettes , configured compile sun sparc stations \) 've since told source cygnus com pub celp speech tar z i'm position sun tcp ip gurus think marry end week \? \) seriously think someone real net access two sparcs could running end week ask pgp guys add crypto filter two weeks damn , wish sparc back i'm stuck 25mhz 386sx share enjoy ! g ps 'll use archie find copy note 's author docs kelvin autodesk com appears located france
gtoal gtoal com \( graham toal \) subject need clipper cheap security \? lines 43 caronni nessie cs id ethz ch \( germano caronni \) article pizzabox demon co uk gtoal gtoal com \( graham toal \) writes someone tell hardware compression needed run digital speech 14 4k \? think 've heard 's lets say 8 bit samples would raw data corresponding sampling rate usable \? , fancy compression need \? far know isdn \( call , 's plugged \) 's 8 bit \( gives one channel sec \) guess go sampling rate 6000 hz want quality analog line anybody knows compression algorithms factors voice \? 've posted info celp coding sci crypt looks like squeeze speech fast enough computer like sparcstation \( newton acorn risc machine \) \) drops bandwidth low figure 's feasible run speech tcp ip running top slip v32bis modem let us run point point encrypted speech , 'll let us run speech internationally internet one stops us getting heavy regulations thought , administration realised , would probably scare shitless course trick develop define standard protocol internet speech damn fast , allowing anyone feels brave custom handheld hardware well us hacking workstations n't difficult celp stuff , use tcp ip streams , protocol allowing used catch net lag , also avoid sending data \( ie 's wise real time end net delays would add big voice \) , i'm going press ahead trying stuff soon get sparc back buy necessary microphone 'll save fortune calling friend texas every night \) \( whether encrypted \) know , surely someone working \? 's obvious , n't exist already \? 've seen suns n't celp compression restricted ether connections g
gtoal gtoal com \( graham toal \) subject would clipper make good cover encryption method \? lines 22 brad optilink com \( brad yearwood \) assume case usual adversary probably cash kgb , 're probably generous handing easier ever find cultivate keys , easy enough find someone reverse engineer chip \( unless tamper damned clever effective \) administration really believes big time drug dealers threat \( personally thought cia air force real drug shipping \) \) ought take seriously unlike kgb , drug dealers make convincing argument cooperation help us 'll nice give money , n't help us 'll start cutting favourite body parts , probably argument like persuaded jack shoot oswald full view police life jail probably seems much preferable people several weeks something nasty followed life g
gtoal gtoal com \( graham toal \) subject shelf cheap des keyseach machine \( corporate acceptance wiretap chip \) lines 16 company worked previously , received file des encryped person sent , went vaction rather wait two weeks set straight frontal attack one key time took two \( 2 \) days crack file , n't faith des g fun ! three questions 1 \) hardware use \? 2 \) found key , anything special meant lucky find early \? \( like first 30 bits 0 \) 3 \) mean dictionary attack rather binary key attack \? g
gtoal gtoal com \( graham toal \) subject pgp ideas ibm systems lines 7 've thinking difficult would make pgp available form ebcdic machines n't encourage let ebcdic machines die honorable death \) g
gtoal gtoal com \( graham toal \) subject key escrow enough \? lines 24 points raised checking actually chip , opposed allegedly programmed therein , raise yet another trust issue even assume trusted agents really entering wide range s1 s2 seeds \( rather using one time reduce key search space 30 bits \) , assume picking iron filing poking circuitry carefully selected points encode data would presumably punching numbers computer , know could program chips manner completely independent s1 s2 values feeding system s1 s2 clearly backdoor assume compromised 're , hell use hardware true random number source n't random number source anywhere proposal whole thing deterministic day serial number stamped chip nope , ca n't trusted two levels access \( possibly honest \) key escrow police forces use , ostensibly fbi back door lets nsa decode everything fly maybe back handers fbi want tab exchange g
gtoal gtoal com \( graham toal \) subject need clipper cheap security \? lines 25 chips perform voice compression expansion ca n't expensive , exist many phones connected line cards , well lot equipment compresses voice grade circuits save cost long distance , satellite circuits ca n't remember generic term chips impression big deal 10 years ago , circuits gotten cheap n't done much get 6 1 compression 8 bit samples squeeze v32bis played around lossless program last night , managed 2 5 1 've got celp code 's obvious runs real time think 's proof concept code , mucking file formats put sample looks like current option use voice mail modem built dsp chip hardware means two modems system , putting cost 600 upwards ouch maybe soon 'll able software high powered games consoles n't 3do acorn risc machine inside \? cpu runs like shit shovel nicely mass market g
gtoal gtoal com \( graham toal \) subject clipper considered harmful lines 12 pmetzger snark shearson com \( perry e metzger \) obviously n't read information system chips put serial number infomation cypher stream allow identified system rely registering people owning particular phone units probably back door allow generation secret key determined yet s1 s2 n't ever change \? g
gtoal gtoal com \( graham toal \) subject clipper considered harmful lines 10 dorothy denning read group \? , someone group forwarding questions like , martin hellman , anyone else 's seen details chip \? course 's 's often nsa 's keeping head always mail directly denning guvax acc georgetown edu , denning cs cosc georgetown edu denning cs georgetown edu g
et teal csn org \( eric h taylor \) subject help tracking device summary underground underwater wireless methods keywords rogers , tesla , hertz , underground , underwater , wireless , radio nntp posting host teal csn org organization 4 l laboratories expires fri , 30 apr 1993 06 00 00 gmt lines 36 article rutgers edu mcdonald rutgers edu writes variety water proof could use real meat problem electronics hence posting kind transmission would reliable underwater , murky even night time conditions \? i'm sure sound feasible given distortion water obviously direction would accurate range could relatively short \( imagine 2 3 hundred yards would enough \) jim mcdonald refer patents james harris rogers 958 , 829 1 , 220 , 005 1 , 322 , 622 1 , 349 , 103 1 , 315 , 862 1 , 349 , 104 1 , 303 , 729 1 , 303 , 730 1 , 316 , 188 details methods underground underwater wireless communications review , refer electrical , march 1919 june 1919 methods used extensively world war , unclassified war supposedly , government rethought soon , rogers forgotten bottom line antennas grounded send half signal thru ground half travels thru space quickly \( square distance \) , travels thru ground furthermore , published data showed noise drowned regular reception , underground antennas would recieve virtually noise free find hard believe , refer work man invented wireless tesla tesla confirmed methods correct , wave theory completely et tesla 100 years ahead time perhaps time comes
w1gsl athena mit edu \( steven l \) subject new england ham electronic dates 1 april update keywords ham radio computers electronics article senator expires 6 may 1993 distribution na organization massachusetts institute technology lines 112 nntp posting host 008 5 mit edu new england area major flea market dates 1993 p 1 2 events ham radio electronic related except 1993 contact source 3 april upper saddle river nj 9 3 sell 8 jack 201 768 4 april ct sara hs 20 6 3 10 8 3 3 9 203 621 f 17 april nashua nh ne antique rc 5 8 1 9 res ctr church ray 508 865 1290 18 april cambridge flea mit nick 617 253 3776 f buy 2 9a sellers 10 sp 7a adv 35 season pass 3rd sunday month april thru october 18 april webster pt breeze rest 3 tables 10 gary 203 974 f 18 april rec ctr 3 9a bob 203 653 f 23 , 24 , 25 april dayton oh adm 11 sell 30 50 evenings 513 767 f 2 may ny lincoln hs otto 914 969 1053 7 8 may rochester nh hoss traders fg rt 16 5 noon fri sase 15 may n ri main st 8a rick 401 725 16 may cambridge flea mit nick 617 253 3776 f 16 may hs sell 5 7 buy 2 8 cliff 413 743 21 22 23 may rochester ny arrl ny conv fg harold 800 724 8515 f 5 june burlington vt mitch 802 879 6 june newington ct hs flea les 203 523 12 june pine st arc es 146 34 94 2 roger 207 848 20 june cambridge flea mit nick 617 253 3776 f 17 july nashua nh ne antique rc 5 8 1 9 res ctr church ray 508 865 1290 17 july union 3 7am state conv 207 622 2915 last update 3 29 93 de w1gsl p 1 2 additions corrections via internet w1gsl athena mit edu us mail w1gsl pob 82 mit br cambridge 02139 sase updated copy issued 1993 contact source 18 july cambridge flea mit nick 617 253 3776 f 3rd sunday month april thru october 24 july manchester nh hi 8a 4 ne dc \( tg \) 603 432 6011 f 8 aug white planes ny sarah 914 962 8 aug wars bars college barry 508 877 14 aug st snow mobile club hitch 207 796 15 aug cambridge flea mit nick 617 253 3776 f 29 aug fall river tom 508 674 11 sept windsor 3 7am 207 622 2915 12 sept gaithersburg md far mg cty fg 5 6a nancy 703 691 j 12 sept dartmouth se mass ara 8a dan 508 933 19 sept cambridge flea mit nick 617 253 3776 f 19 sept sandy hook ct ara harold 25 sept ed 207 732 4366 26 sept framingham hs 12 8 5 9 2 10 barry 508 877 f 26 sept ny metro 70 arc otto 914 969 1053 15 , 16 oct rochester nh hoss traders fg rt 16 5 noon fri 17 oct cambridge flea mit nick 617 253 3776 f 13 nov plymouth rc mem hall 9 3 sell 8 jim 508 747 14 nov ct sch brad 203 265 last update 3 29 93 de w1gsl p 2 2 source f flyer j john roberts list arrl list wr nv 73 cq qst mags tentative early info new info month list compiled many sources believe info accurate author responsible changes errors check sponsoring organizations details list posted monthly usenet additions made mailed copies sent additions made additions corrections via internet w1gsl athena mit edu us mail w1gsl pob 82 mit br cambridge 02139 sase updated copy issued
et teal csn org \( eric h taylor \) subject electronic tesla coils summary real world applications keywords tesla , coil , osc , flyback , transformers , wireless , emi , ac , ignition nntp posting host teal csn org organization 4 l laboratories distribution world expires fri , 30 apr 1993 06 00 00 gmt lines 48 article 1993mar25 wuecl wustl edu dp cec1 wustl edu \( david prutchi \) writes article spk hp com long spk hp com \( jerry long \) writes fred w \( norfolk vak12ed edu \) wrote couple years ago put together tesla circuit published electronics magazine could circuit referred one used flyback transformer tv onto wound primary windings also used 2 power transistors 3 10 years ago built , 000 volt tesla , thing spectacular , besides scaring amazing friends \( depending knowledge science \) , generating strong emi , never found anything useful could done real world application tesla coils today \? david prutchi first , realize tesla invented ac power generators , motors , transformers , conductors , etc technically , transformers tesla coils general though someone refers tesla coil , mean air core resonant transformer tv flyback version tesla coil \( see encyclopedia electronic circuits v3 , 106 1 diagram \) air core class circuit called shuttle circuit \( osc \) generally osc 's highly efficient , version uses transistors resistors , lossy devices typically tesla used active instead passive resistors , could achieve 99 5 , better usual application air core resonant transformer , osc , produce strong emi wireless broadcasts well think computer screen would work removed hf hv tesla \( flyback \) coil \? remove homes industries tesla coils , lights would go dark , cars would sputter die , radios would go silent , industries would grind halt , would go back using coal heat , gas lamps , horses transportation , steam power , telegraph communication real world enough \? \? \? \? \? \? \? get message ! would 1 100 today tesla give credit credit due ! edison , 'd still 19th century \( flame peril i'm good putting edison \) et tesla 100 years ahead time perhaps time comes
norman vi ri cmu edu subject radar jammers stealth cars nntp posting host vi ri cmu edu reply com organization school computer science , carnegie mellon distribution usa lines 6 eric h taylor writes determined go faster , get airplane dont speed limits n't make habit buzzing local airport 200 knots \( 250 knots 're flying jet \) \)
harpe netnews louisville edu \( mike harpe \) subject wanted mac organization university louisville lines 12 title says contact via email would help mike harpe university louisville p know discontinued want someone would like sell old copy michael harpe , programmer analyst information technology , bldg harpe hermes louisville edu university louisville \( 502 \) 588 louisville , ky 's man , 's eating machine ! simpsons
josephc cco caltech edu \( joseph chiu \) subject zero db \? \? \? \? article gap organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 33 nntp posting host sandman caltech edu sehari iastate edu \( babak sehari \) writes similarly , people usually use db dbm another common mistake spelling ``db'' instead ``db'' article see company , mother capitalized thus , decibell \( , l , tenth bell \) part original bell example , southwestern bell decibell measure current , amp , actually named amp company amphenol company companies revolutionized electronics simulatenously realizing performance connectors sockets affected amount current running wires ohmite company first characterize resistances numbers , thus use ohms alexander graham bell , actually , bell came actually , bel refers highest regards , babak sehari joseph chiu josephc cco caltech edu os 2 gotta get thing ! msc 380 caltech pasadena , ca 91126 os 2 operating system tomorrow , today 1 818 449 5457
blakey ug cs dal ca \( jason blakey \) subject site projects nntp posting host ug cs dal ca organization math , stats cs , dalhousie university , halifax , ns , canada lines 6 anyone know ftp sites deal electronics projects , plans , etc \? response appreciated \) jb jason blakey blakey ug cs dal ca
subject access bus \( i2c bus \) srgxnbs grace cri nz organization industrial research ltd , new zealand nntp posting host grv grace cri nz lines 37 mx andy macrae corp sun com 6 apr 1993 06 48 34 96 srgxnbs cc 2c bus long haul serial \( also return path andy macrae corp sun com received sun com grv grace cri nz \( mx v3 1c \) smtp tue , 06 apr 1993 06 48 29 1300 received corp sun com \( lemay corp sun com \) sun com \( 4 1 smi 4 1 \) id mon , 5 apr 93 11 48 08 pdt received corp sun com corp sun com \( 4 1 \( \) \) id mon , 5 apr 93 11 48 07 pdt received corp sun com \( 4 1 smi 4 1 \) id mon , 5 apr 93 11 47 28 pdt date mon , 5 apr 93 11 47 28 pdt andy macrae corp sun com \( andrew macrae \) message id corp sun com srgxnbs grace cri nz subject 2c bus long haul serial \( also cc andy macrae corp sun com content length 693 article zephyr grace cri nz write whats required get onto access bus \? nice thing i2c requires one 8 16 pin dil chip , ie cheap easy anyone design bus , trouble buses require host interface chips often board intelligence bruce , latest information access bus call access bus industry group \( 408 \) 991 also , sun hosting next meeting group april 19th , mountain view reason able post newsgroups today , please feel free pass information see fit andrew macrae
baden sys6626 bison mb ca \( baden de bari \) subject jacob 's ladder organization system 6626 bbs , winnipeg manitoba canada lines 36 alpha ru ac za \( brad meier \) writes hi , i'm looking circuit , called jacob 's ladder little box usually seen sci fi movies consists two curves wire protruding air , little blue sparks starting base \( two wires closer \) , moving wires top , ending small noise could anyone supply schematic innards box \? thanks advance mike \( please reply email alpha ru ac za \) hippo ru ac za 's 'll go home , , stay ! 'd like accumulated information well please thanks baden de bari baden sys6626 bison ca baden inqmind bison ca
wl aecl ca \( wayne \) subject wanted dram controller use keywords dram , nntp posting host wl aecl ca organization aecl research , laboratories distribution na lines 25 upcoming project want use 4 megs dram configured two 2 meg banks 16 bit data wondering anyone knows dram controller handle refreshing data 's ok controller n't handle bank switching part easy controllers know ones national semiconductor dram management handbook \( 1988 edition \) eg would like know another manufacturer produces one may easier implement circuit btw , anyone wanting hook dram microcontroller , dallas semiconductor makes neat chip serial dram chip uses spi \( i2c \) bus refreshes controls dram memory use external battery refresh dram power price 11 75 dallas \( quan 1 \) wish could use chip maximum spi clock rate 1 mhz \( slow \) thanks advance , wayne wl aecl ca wayne , internet wl aecl ca aecl research ax 25 wpg mb laboratories twisted pair \( 204 \) 753 x2317
vanderby mprgate mpr ca \( david vanderbyl \) subject hv diodes nntp posting host chip reply vanderby mprgate mpr ca \( david vanderbyl \) organization mpr teltech ltd lines 15 article mkt csd harris com , wdh mkt csd harris com \( w david higgins \) writes believe thing needs correction , mr vanderbyl , attitude nope , mr myers found bad mistake posted correction , thank god acting child wo n't gain favors make 's acting \? positive impression anybody ghod knows 've make impression positive one oh , n't impressed mr higgins
cco caltech edu \( \) subject external timer article gap organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 8 nntp posting host fleming caltech edu wondering anyone knows chip similar internal timer 0 intel \? want timer b output intel 's timer called intel told n't make chip suggestions welcome thanks advance e mail cco caltech edu
schuch phx mcd mot com \( john schuch \) subject using old databooks nntp posting host bopper2 phx mcd mot com organization motorola computer group , tempe , az lines 23 article 1993apr3 hemlock cray com cray com \( alan \) writes jeh cmkrnl com almost exactly reason keep latest databook around many times last years books turn three years ago data n't match current production parts tanstaafl , alan habit trying repair old obsolete machines , old data books information get anywhere else trying find modern replacement obsolete part , original specs really come handy design new books save old ones \( donate ham \) anybody phoenix disagrees , 'll drive help 'get old data books john \( 450 data books growing \)
fenian dell com \( tim \) subject pal \( \) programer \? nntp posting host fenian dell com reply fenian dell com organization lines 13 anyone know reasonable circuit programming pals \? interested programming wide range would happy something could handle thereabouts thanks advance , tim fenian dell com rev tim official obnoxious poster one responsible anything write , believe preach difficult free fools chains revere voltaire
robert desonia hal9k ann arbor mi us \( robert desonia \) subject board bus speed distribution world organization hal 9000 bbs , w net hq , ann arbor , michigan , usa reply robert desonia hal9k ann arbor mi us \( robert desonia \) lines 39 c hi c 486dx2 66mhz computer use board c data acquisition bus i'm problems c bus runs 12 5 mhz correct \? c bus speed conflict read somewhere c new 486dx2 66 mhz cpu runs 33 mhz bus c local bus bus also problem c c run non turbo mode speed goes 8 mhz c n't work please mail views ! thanks c vincent c musica mcgill ca c standard bus \( isa \) runs 8mhz , 12 5 mhz , non isa buses higher clock rates , careful , since boards n't work faster standard rates instance , 486 adjustable bus speeds , pas16 audio card chokes ad data acquisition bus speed faster 10mhz fact non turbo mode speed n't work weird may motherboard hardware 33 mhz bus 486dx2 66 refer local bus fyi bus operates , linked local bus via , one function rdd winqwk 2 0b 0 unregistered evaluation copy kmail 2 95d w net hq , hal9k ann arbor mi us , 1 313 663 4173 3959 hal 9000 bbs qwk usenet gateway four 14400 v 32bis dial ins free usenet mail 200 newsgroups ! pcboard 14 5am uupcb kmail call 1 313 663 4173 663 3959 member eff , asp , asad 1500mb disk serving ann arbor since 1988
robert desonia hal9k ann arbor mi us \( robert desonia \) subject pc parallel distribution world organization hal 9000 bbs , w net hq , ann arbor , michigan , usa reply robert desonia hal9k ann arbor mi us \( robert desonia \) lines 24 r jd pc parallel ports compatable ibm standard , r jd including original ibm adaptor , bi directional parallel ports bi directional without modification experience standard old zenith parallel port original 286s proves input direction tieing r w select line circuit vcc make bi \( \) modify scraping trace solder jump proper location thought lazy part zenith \( zenith bull group time \) rdd winqwk 2 0b 0 unregistered evaluation copy kmail 2 95d w net hq , hal9k ann arbor mi us , 1 313 663 4173 3959 hal 9000 bbs qwk usenet gateway four 14400 v 32bis dial ins free usenet mail 200 newsgroups ! pcboard 14 5am uupcb kmail call 1 313 663 4173 663 3959 member eff , asp , asad 1500mb disk serving ann arbor since 1988
laird pasture ecn purdue edu \( kyler laird \) subject telephone hook hok ok circuit organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 6 circuits abound electronic project books 're inclined buy something , try radio shack think still device designed disconnect answering machine extension line lifted led indicators also kyler
jeh cmkrnl com subject police radar work \? \? distribution sci electronics organization kernel mode systems , san diego , ca lines 14 article juts ccc amdahl com , amdahl com \( david sharpe \) writes details radar rumors true common one two beams sent one reading car speed one ground speed true would murder hope helps \( flame \) gee , guess extra horn 's mounted floor cars , firing ground shallow angle , show , huh \? \( calibration , simply turn one horn \) jamie hanrahan , kernel mode systems , san diego ca internet jeh cmkrnl com uucp uunet ! cmkrnl ! jeh cis 74140 , 2055
kludge grissom larc nasa gov \( scott dorsey \) subject log stereo high quality pot \( hi fi \) organization nasa langley research center reptile farm lines 20 nntp posting host grissom larc nasa gov article 1993apr5 eng cam ac uk cmh eng cam ac uk \( c hicks \) writes ee sun ac za \( \) writes hi , looking high quality log stereo 10k pot audio design specifies alps 2 10k , cannot find anywhere ! suggestions \? best pots around \( imho \) made penny giles uk basic model solid brass case , conductive plastic elements matched 0 across whole rotation downside cost upwards 50 quid \( p g pots good alps ones usually carried folks run audio amateur magazine 'll also recommend noble , n't mind weird metric sizes everything scott
msunde01 mik uky edu \( mark underwood \) subject police radar work \? \? nntp posting host mik uky edu reply msunde01 mik uky edu organization university kentucky , dept math sciences lines 32 article hp col col hp com cab col hp com \( chris best \) writes manual also got effect , wherein motorist always gets benefit doubt \( effectively \) depending relative directions radar gun target car , reading always lower actual speed car never higher always remember cop n't even need radar ticket \( \? \) word skilled observer enough father friend mine police officer west virginia word skilled observer good court , skill observer tested accurate radar gun cases ! guess car 's speed within 2 watching blow whether 's standing still moving ! \( yes , realize calibrated guns accurate , \) ability uncommon among people watch moving things living , heard good radar detector except give split second warning guy cut pass guy ahead left panic stop 85 crowded freeway \? \? \? mark underwood ee student , university kentucky lab assistant , boyd hall microlab \( tiny little division uk library microlabs \) e mail msunde01 mik uky edu
wellison kuhub cc ukans edu subject help ultra long timing organization university kansas academic computing services lines 33 thanks good ideas looking using couple ideas recieved mail today spec sheets mil spec version 's xr 2240 timer counter chip stable 50 c sucks little power show application ultra long time delay \( several years depending rc time constant \) application , two together reset trigger pins chips tied together second chip disabled configuration , output high system reset triggered , output goes low stays way total 65 , 536 x timing cycle first chip total timing cycle two chips programmed 256 x r x c 65 , 536 x r x c 256 steps selecting combination counter outputs timer output beauty , chip would timing cap resistor 39 1 seconds per timing cycle get maximum 2 , 562 , 457 6 seconds timing cycles \( 39 1 x 65 , 536 29 days ! \) course , 's much need \( 14 days \) counter allows 256 binary steps selected output first 14 days trips , would reset self next 14 day timing cycle forth power still problem though ideas suggested bury electronics hole dug snow \( \) put pellet tower estimated snow fall solar panel keep charge lithium battery pack like idea \) thing work least six weeks three samples gas valves 12 volts spit pellets onto snow anyway , ordered xr 2240 's see interesting \( long i'm one go digging pellets middle freezing \) thanks everyone wes
cph dmu ac uk \( chris hand \) subject pc based layout program organization de montfort university , leicester , uk lines 26 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 frank \( aragorn csee lehigh edu \) wrote pads zip files contain subdirectories , via pkunzip three floppies creates disks needed install i'm still sure supposed work , since zip files took 2 5mb , must tight squeeze floppies however , managed install pads i'm pretty impressed created couple schematics without problem , whenever try create pcb layout one circuits \( rather demos \) n't work i'm wondering maybe file n't anyone printed manual comment whether registration fee worth paying \? chris chris hand , lecturer internet mail cph dmu ac uk dept computing science , voice 44 533 de montfort university , gateway , fax 44 533 fidonet 2 440 32 50 leicester , uk le1 linux free unix ibm pcs !
subject principle srgxnbs grace cri nz organization industrial research ltd , new zealand nntp posting host grv grace cri nz lines 3 nz apparently things like also giving positive readings
rainer spot colorado edu \( rainer \) subject hc11 blues find nntp posting host spot colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 10 article pat fegmania wustl edu pat fegmania \( patrick niemeyer \) writes trouble finding hc11 's looked back 'd interesting hearing anyone knows availability newest jdr catalog least one variant hc11 rainer , cu boulder \( 303 \) 492
johnh macadam mpce mq edu au \( john haddy \) subject oscilloscope triggering organization macquarie university lines 86 distribution world nntp posting host macadam mpce mq edu au article 1993apr5 dxcern cern ch , jeroen dxcern cern ch \( jeroen \) writes article murdoch acc virginia edu dgj2y kelvin seas virginia edu \( david glen jacobowitz \) writes , anybody else like digital scopes school david jacobowitz dgj2y virginia edu oh 're one analogue scopes give \( , least \) fair idea 's going circuit digital scopes seem habit inventing sizable part e g even samples per period , displays continuous waveform , complete non existing 've lots manual pages menus , n't found yet turn n't show points actually measured , opposed interpolated , either perhaps 're using wrong brand ! \( sorry hp fans , hard time convinced scopes match rest \( excellent \) gear \) one principal functions look considering dso whether turn interpolation important feature disable repetitive waveform acquisition e able lock instrument real time capture mode secondly , n't like menus want see common functions button \( 'll guessed love analogue tek scopes \) 'd choose knob printed legend screen display buttons right away single knob digital instruments never seems connected right function right moment agree consolation manufacturers beginning pay attention ergonomics designing menus however , fair , seems first time scope users \( students \) seem adjust menus easier around twenty knobs required real scope \) last least , never know waveform displayed old recent , noisy modulated , heck , n't even know really looks way 's displayed digital scopes show tiny fraction 's going time 're busy computing things one area newer addressing recently evaluated latest box tek seems worthy alternative standard 100mhz analogue instrument 100mhz , spec , meaning always real time capture mode pricing also matches equivalent analogue scopes range instrument uses menus , least appear logically laid three situations would prefer digital scope looking happened trigger , looking rare events , acquiring data computer play let 's hope scope manufacturers listening best regards , jeroen jeroen dxcern cern ch one thing new , simpler , front panels instruments tend use digital rotary encoders knobs vast improvement old oak switch single common cause failure scopes \( students blowing inputs ! \) mechanical wear switches look new panels great step toward increasing longevity instruments johnh electronics department \( \) \( \( \( school mpce macquarie university sydney , australia 2109 email johnh mpce mq edu au , ph 61 2 805 8959 , fax 61 2 805 8983
rob dexter psych umn edu \( robert stephens \) subject compressor problem nntp posting host dexter psych umn edu organization university minnesota lines 18 stereo compressor limiter audio logic \( model mt 66 \) gates work , compressor seems gone one channel , weak 'll probably need trace \( pun intended \) , one experience type equipment could point certain direction circuit likely fail , 'd sure appreciate robert c stephens rob dexter psych umn edu human factors research lab university minnesota
neale ee rochester edu \( reg neale \) subject pioneer laser player organization univ rochester , college engineering applied science lines 5 i'm trying figure operate pioneer laserdisc ld 1000 bought surplus store kind viewing ordering system may connector back power , front panel power light comes , activity , door n't open anyone experience unit ideas obtain documentation \?
johnh macadam mpce mq edu au \( john haddy \) subject help ultra long timing organization macquarie university lines 60 distribution world nntp posting host macadam mpce mq edu au article 1993apr5 kuhub cc ukans edu , wellison kuhub cc ukans edu writes project lap somewhat pain design looking stable ultra long solid state timer want place thing ice shelf measure amount snow fall period six weeks every two weeks , want trip discharge different colored pellets gas pressure across snow digging snow , snow fall amount measured come different color pellets problem trying build timer would stand cold \( 40 degrees \) power source would n't drain looked xr timers standard dual timers , thier temp specs wo n't go low also , two weeks equates 1 , 209 , 600 seconds per firing , means one big timing cap ! found 2 2 farad \( yes , farad ! \) caps working voltage 5 volts small size , time discharge 40 lower degrees n't linear thinking using several timers chained together fire end timing period , blasted cold drain battery six weeks pain one possibility would use solar panels , six month twilight anyone good ideas \? thanks advance wes firstly , would never consider trying make one shot timer cap designed ram battery substitute , rather use applications wish drain cap constant current performance , respects , akin batteries normal cap point big electro 's usually rated 5 20 tolerances , calculating exactly capacitance \( particularly considering cold \) looking designing oscillator divider chain , rolls \( zero maximum count , vice versa \) every 1 , 209 , 600 seconds use something like clock , would need divider chain 2 27 , give error less one percent firing times six week period course , could trim oscillator give exact time , likelyhood oscillator remaining exactly constant 40 low anyway would suspect would far drain firing solenoid would timer circuit caveat i'm experienced low temperature electronics , ca n't guarantee \( \) approach best conditions johnh electronics department \( \) \( \( \( school mpce macquarie university sydney , australia 2109 email johnh mpce mq edu au , ph 61 2 805 8959 , fax 61 2 805 8983
nusunix1 nus sg \( kam yung \) subject protection serial \( rs232 \) lines organization national university singapore x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 39 martin john gregory \( flash pax tpa com au \) wrote 've started look devices serial data transmission fairly decent distances fairly noisy environments , seen variety schemes protecting rs232 transceivers \( rest circuit \) serial lines i'm left wondering best way \? necessary \? stuff deleted wisdom \? ta , martin know , protection necessary , esp plan route cables unknown environment \( control \) things like accidental shorts signal lines power cables , even lightning strikes likely n't think like see sight computer going smoke ! even ethernet cards protected 've looked one pc connector protected gas discharge tube ! plan use serial cables internal \( e controlled environments \) , reasonably safe suggestion look rs data book several rs232 transceivers protection among include , suppose electrically isolated ones still need opto work \( n't ask 've never used another alternative rs232 surge protector two listed rs catalogue need additional info \( e stock nos \) , e mail kam yung , nusunix1 nus sg
john gu uwa edu au \( john west \) subject protection serial \( rs232 \) lines keywords serial protection article uniwa organization university western australia lines 13 nntp posting host mackerel gu uwa edu au laird stable ecn purdue edu \( kyler laird \) writes least one optically isolated rs 232 transceiver chip n't remember saw rs components \( exist australia uk n't know us \) little chips called isolated max 250 251 give isolated rs 232 single 5v supply external components 4 caps , 4 , diode , transformer go 19 2k baud john west humour impaired insert \) every third word
rkim mars uucp \( richard h kim \) subject need sources hv capacitors article nic 1993apr5 distribution usa organization inc lines 26 nntp posting host mars calstatela edu recently , video monitor went dead , picture , low distorted sound n't hear tell tale cracking indicated hv work , far end tube glowing orange , nothing examining power board , noticed largest capacitor bad bulge top naturally , want replace , ca n't find sources electrolytic capacitor 330 mf radial leads , roughly 1 1 2 inches long , 1 1 8 wide dimensions important since whole board fits metal cage , leaving little room living los angeles area , 've numerous stores \( radio , electronics , itc elect , sandy 's , yale elect \) empty hands anyone suggest sources high voltage capacitors \? mail order fine , although 'd rather check store compare i'm going try video electronics store , hopefully 'll hv caps \( way , monitor atari , circuitry , tube anyone else problems \? \) thanks advance , rich k email rkim opus calstatela edu
johnh macadam mpce mq edu au \( john haddy \) subject help ultra long timing organization macquarie university lines 39 distribution world nntp posting host macadam mpce mq edu au article athena cs uga edu , mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) writes \( 1 \) n't use big capacitors unreliable timing due leakage instead , use quartz crystal divide frequency 2 40 times something like 1 mhz divided 2 40 1 cycle per 2 weeks , approximately \( 2 \) would n't expect components \( batteries electrolytic capacitors \) fail 40 c \( 40 f matter either \) \) battery going big problem also , course , circuit n't depend exact values resistors \( crystal controlled timer wo n't \) would n't crystal affected cold \? gut feeling , mechanically resonating device , extreme cold likely affect compliance \( \? terminology \? \) quartz , hence resonant frequency michael covington internet mcovingt ai uga edu artificial intelligence programs phone 706 542 0358 university georgia fax 706 542 0349 athens , georgia 30602 7415 u amateur radio n4tmi johnh electronics department \( \) \( \( \( school mpce macquarie university sydney , australia 2109 email johnh mpce mq edu au , ph 61 2 805 8959 , fax 61 2 805 8983
johnh macadam mpce mq edu au \( john haddy \) subject hc11 blues find organization macquarie university lines 38 distribution world nntp posting host macadam mpce mq edu au article pat fegmania wustl edu , pat fegmania \( patrick niemeyer \) writes ree88132 zach fit edu \( keith ledig \) writes told people takes long time heard rumors hc11 hard get days replaced 711 series sales person trying push 711 someone please tell going microcontrollers ca n't seem get straight answer trouble finding hc11 's looked back 'd interesting hearing anyone knows availability thanks , pat eprom version hc11 raw hc11 parts factory set rom images , useless hobbyist parts eeprom , allowing electrical erasure motorola parts \( \) eprom , making user programmable , come options either windowed sealed expensive windowed packages allow multiple use , plastic dip varieties one time programmable , since way exposing eprom array light johnh electronics department \( \) \( \( \( school mpce macquarie university sydney , australia 2109 email johnh mpce mq edu au , ph 61 2 805 8959 , fax 61 2 805 8983
tg cs toronto edu \( tom \) subject 12v 3v 48v 3a organization department computer science , university toronto distribution na lines 11 subject line says i'm working project use car battery need pull 3v possibly 48v 3a several ideas , 'd prefer benefit brilliant people \) conquest easy , control tom u toronto statistics star trek tos tg toronto edu usl forgot simple history lesson
wayne alan martin andrew cmu edu subject help ultra long timing organization senior , electrical computer engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 7 distribution world nntp posting host po4 andrew cmu edu reply sunb ocs mq edu au sounds like job universal time reciever n't know situation , could place reciever snow place oscillator nice lab somewhere else , problems solved suggestion wayne martin
donald wichitaks ncr com \( ken thompson \) subject problem organization ncr corporation wichita , ks lines 21 gel ulaval ca \( martin \) writes b \) host est mal configure \) sylvain , \) j'ai le hc11 il 3 ans et je ne souviens pas de les je meme de \) je ne pas que une programme dans le eeprom une \( le eeprom une de vie 10 000 cycles il \) le communication break du fait que le eeprom est long programmer \( par 8 bytes c'est \) et que les de transfer de programme vers la , les en ram du code est plus car le ram est plus que le eeprom en \) c'est tout ce que de ! \) chance , oh yeah easy say ! ken thompson ncr corp peripheral products division disk array development n rock road wichita ks \( 316 \) 636 ken thompson wichitaks ncr com
whit carson u washington edu \( john whitmore \) subject wire wrap questions \( \? \) article shelley organization university washington , seattle lines 36 nntp posting host carson u washington edu article pascal apd sony co jp pascal apd sony co jp \( pascal \) writes article blue cis pitt edu pitt edu \( mark \) writes considerable amount research , review discussions group , mainly fruitless time , decided path least resistance prototyping \( necessarily someone else 's \) electronic designs wire wrapping idea want , careful wire wrapping increases lot wiring capacitance n't problem slow applications \( e mhz \) , quicker ones \( around 30 40 mhz \) , doubt work fortunately , wire wrapping better wiring technique high frequencies cray computers \( x mp , least \) gets trouble much higher frequencies ttl handle wiring capacitance really relevant \( use transmission line techniques , capacitance problem \) 1 \) get decent wrapping tool \? 'd like spend less 150 ac powered unit including bit sleeve hand powered best good ac powered ones , rather expensive low cost one n't work well hand powered terrible choice \( imho \) unless field maintenance person maybe dozen connections time hands cramp battery powered wire wrap guns available 150 range , little stick manual types \( 15 \) modest project , couple hundred connections , 'd prefer borrow professional ac unit one john whitmore
ucssun1 sdsu edu \( j \) subject pioneer laser player article 46v organization sdsu computing services lines 17 nntp posting host ucssun1 sdsu edu article 1993apr6 ee rochester edu neale ee rochester edu \( reg neale \) writes i'm trying figure operate pioneer laserdisc ld 1000 bought surplus store kind viewing ordering system may connector back power , front panel power light comes , activity , door n't open anyone experience unit ideas obtain documentation \? one ld players video game \( dragon 's lair , space ace , etc \) call pioneer support 213 498 0300 \( least 's number called \) ask ld interface guide shows parallel interface wired codes commands \( play , pause , reject , etc \) guide mainly hooking player computer , little work , could build wired controller jim ucssun1 sdsu edu
whit carson u washington edu \( john whitmore \) subject help ultra long timing article shelley distribution world organization university washington , seattle lines 25 nntp posting host carson u washington edu article sunb ocs mq edu au johnh macadam mpce mq edu au \( john haddy \) writes article athena cs uga edu , mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) writes \( 1 \) n't use big capacitors unreliable timing due leakage true \( especially electrolytic capacitors high temperature \) instead , use quartz crystal divide frequency 2 40 times something like would n't crystal affected cold \? gut feeling , mechanically resonating device , extreme cold likely affect compliance \( \? terminology \? \) quartz , hence resonant frequency low power quartz oscillators usually 32 khz \( significant temperature , one n't often notice wearing watch one 's wrist \) low temperature sensitivity available crystal types , unfortunately larger higher frequency \( 1 mhz \) take battery power programmable timers might less accurate , power suitable crystal oscillators john whitmore
cbnewsb cb att com \( robert f casey \) subject 2 level brightness xmas light set \( easter \? keywords xmas organization lines 54 yes , know 's nowhere near christmas time , i'm gonna loose net access days \( maybe week 2 i'm lucky \) , wanted post interested people save 'till xmas \( note bell labs good place phd good boss , neither subject xmas light set 2 levels brightness another version variable brightness xmas light set set starts 2 blinker 35 bulb string diagram orginal 2 way set 120v b ! ! b ! ! ! modified set 2 level brightness string 1 120v ! 10k ! 5w ! string 2 ! b ! 120v rtn ! ! note mods wiring right point one blinker used note blinker would much current thru string 1 bulbs , second string bulbs parallel 's use 10k 5w resistor add extra current thru blinker make current thru second string blinker glowing second string glowing blinker goes open , resistor slight effect brightness strings , s1 slightly dimmer , s2 slightly brighter use 3w 120v bulb place 10k resistor get one caution , replace standard c9 bulb , draw much current burn blinker c9 approx 7w 'll see 's working powerup , string 1 light full brightness , b lit , bypassing current second string , making light b open , placing strings series , making string glow low brightness , string glow reduced brightness sure wire , resistor leads , cut wires safe manner !
blakey ug cs dal ca \( jason blakey \) subject ftp sites anyone \? nntp posting host ug cs dal ca organization math , stats cs , dalhousie university , halifax , ns , canada lines 7 hello netters \) anyone know ftp sites projects , plans , etc electrical nature \? jason jason blakey blakey ug cs dal ca
davidb macadam mpce mq edu au \( david bull \) subject intel documentation wanted organization school mpce , macquarie university , australia lines 19 distribution world nntp posting host macadam mpce mq edu au originator davidb macadam mpce mq edu au 've donated large machine use robotics lab device complete 286 based controller , running intel operating system unfortunately , n't documentation anybody netland help \? please reply via email n't regularly catch news thanks , david bull davidb mpce mq edu au
dtmedin catbyte b30 ingr com \( dave medin \) subject zero db \? \? \? \? reply dtmedin catbyte b30 ingr com organization intergraph corporation , huntsville al lines 81 article sehari iastate edu , sehari iastate edu \( babak sehari \) writes ms uky edu msunde01 mik uky edu \( mark underwood \) writes somewhat familiar db measurements apply electrical circuits e gain \( example \) amplifier measured logarithmic scale however , requires reference value e \( e g \) respect input signal stuff deleted actually talking dbm db however , terms used loosely people power , whereas db ratio , like two english statement 1 well 2 good similarly , people usually use db dbm another common mistake spelling ``db'' instead ``db'' article see company , mother capitalized highest regards , babak sehari good ! ratios question remains ratio reference unit used sometimes , reference power , 1 \( given certain circuit impedance also included fine print known , like 50 ohms rf circuit impedance \) , leading accepted notation dbm maybe might , disregarding impedance circuit power developed , using 1 volt reference amplitude \( rather reference power \) , might arbitrary omitted reference included notation , leading plain db look way implied reference notation explicit reference power db 10 log \( p \( measured \) p \( reference \) \) amplitude db 20 log \( \( measured \) \( reference \) \) 'b' bel , standard term log ratio base 10 , named alexander graham bell bel 1 10 bel nothing bell telephone company except common founder 's name small large 'b' per si notation convention n't know anyone 's crucified messing common references audio 0 dbm 1 across 600 ohms 0 1 volt 0 vu \( zero vu meter \) 4 dbm \( pro gear line level \) 0 vu \( consumer gear line level \) often times , power amp vu meter aligned using rated power amp 0 db point done whatever reference reasonable application moment note circuit given \( maybe unknown \) linear impedance , amplitude goes many , power also increase amount proof done two identities ohm 's law dave medin phone \( 205 \) 730 3169 \( w \) ssd networking \( 205 \) 837 1174 \( h \) intergraph corp gd3004 internet dtmedin catbyte b30 ingr com huntsville , al 35894 uucp uunet ! ingr ! b30 ! catbyte ! dtmedin everywhere look \( least around office \) opinions expressed mine \( machine \)
dtmedin catbyte b30 ingr com \( dave medin \) subject flyback video monitors reply dtmedin catbyte b30 ingr com organization intergraph corporation , huntsville al lines 41 article 1993mar31 ssc com , markz ssc com \( mark zenier \) writes zack lau \( arrl org \) wrote sci electronics , uceng uc edu \( han \) writes article 1993mar24 158 hubcap clemson edu hubcap clemson edu \( michael townsend \) writes brendan macadam mpce mq edu au \( brendan jones \) writes mom 's 25 magnavox well put chewing gum around horizontal sync transformer would n't board much n't flame , worked realize suitable substance available purpose , n't remember adhesive silicon , hardware store smells like vinegar , may damage metal surfaces promoting corrosion anybody tried \( \? \) sneak cracks better , stiffer silicone 've found works pretty well noisy power transformer cores windings \( 60hz kind \) likewise , anybody tried flyback 'd like hear would suspect would effective power transformers material would n't damp well something suspect would critical frequencies involved \( words , want absorption rather prevention would real difficult 15 khz \) dave medin phone \( 205 \) 730 3169 \( w \) ssd networking \( 205 \) 837 1174 \( h \) intergraph corp gd3004 internet dtmedin catbyte b30 ingr com huntsville , al 35894 uucp uunet ! ingr ! b30 ! catbyte ! dtmedin everywhere look \( least around office \) opinions expressed mine \( machine \)
ph gmd de \( peter hendricks \) subject wanted hardware pc eagle wesleyan edu nntp posting host organization gmd , , germany lines 23 ncr mpd ftcollinsco ncr com brad wright writes know much pc 's \( ibm comp \) might try joystick port though n't tried , 've told port built converters would allow joystick couple pots could find specs might work guess 100k , connecting pins 1 3 \( 1x \) , 1 6 \( 1y \) , 9 11 \( 2x \) , 9 13 \( 2y \) get 8 bit da converter \( merely couple transistors resistors \) opamp compare output voltage want measure , connect spared printer port \( one \) , rest software \( refinement \) port addresses printer ports probably \( lpt1 \) , \( lpt2 \) work well enough purposes hope helps gmd , , postfach 1316 , st 1 , frg e mail peter hendricks gmd de ph zi gmd dbp de ph gmd de
kolstad cae wisc edu \( joel kolstad \) subject wanted hardware pc article doug 1993apr6 organization u wisconsin madison college engineering lines 22 ncr mpd ftcollinsco ncr com brad wright writes know much pc 's \( ibm comp \) might try joystick port though n't tried , 've told port built converters would allow joystick couple pots could find specs might work believe converters found joystick port really timers tick long takes r c circuit \( r paddle \) charge something like 1 2 vcc games works pretty well , certainly would n't want try take lab measurements something non linear hmm suppose could software , real problem precision measurement longer constant \( higher voltages would precise \) hand , could wrong perhaps game card designers extra 50 make cheap constant current source op amp would n't expect joel kolstad
rooi et tudelft nl \( mark de rooi \) subject calculating transformer help needed originator rooi et tudelft nl nntp posting host et tudelft nl reply rooi et tudelft nl \( mark de rooi \) organization delft university technology , dept electrical engineering lines 18 want convert 500 volt frequency 1 khz 10 khz , 10 volt frequency , means transformer secondary current 6 \( 600 \) kind transformer use \( ferrite \? \) buy one \? , need supplier cannot buy one , go winding one \? core use , big must order , thickness copper wire , many turns , etc \? know little analog electronics , hope kind soul help pointers relevant databooks also highly appreciated thanks , mark de rooi rooi tno nl
dtmedin catbyte b30 ingr com \( dave medin \) subject hv diodes reply dtmedin catbyte b30 ingr com organization intergraph corporation , huntsville al lines 36 article hpfcso fc hp com , myers hpfcso fc hp com \( bob myers \) writes nope dag outside tube , grounded inside second anode , connected suction cup \( glass tube \) capacitor , used power supply bypass filter hv supply smaller scope tubes n't coating outside mu metal shields , still capacitor actually \( think said original , perhaps n't clear enough \) usually internal external dag two , internal dag important back phosphor cases adequate guarantee connection anode button \( case gun assembly includes accelerating electrode anode potential , definitely provide connection \) bob indeed correct one way look old rca picture tube manual backs , sams reference data handbook internal coating around perimeter crt \( aluminum tin crt face coating \) referred dag well outer coating thankfully , n't need go f library find , either one sparkling water mr vanderbyl \( caffeine , \) dave medin phone \( 205 \) 730 3169 \( w \) ssd networking \( 205 \) 837 1174 \( h \) intergraph corp gd3004 internet dtmedin catbyte b30 ingr com huntsville , al 35894 uucp uunet ! ingr ! b30 ! catbyte ! dtmedin everywhere look \( least around office \) opinions expressed mine \( machine \)
eoe co uk \( david \) subject sid chip ibm system bus organization eo europe limited , cambridge , uk lines 10 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 mr mc howell \( hippo ru ac za \) wrote please n't ask questions like n't buy soundblaster answer simple overpriced considering sound quality try one projects build dac connected parallel port documented files come \? vary 4 dac design simple single dac made resistors david eo europe ltd , email eoe co uk house , road , great , cambridge cb2 , england
leapman austin ibm com subject heathkit zenith article austin reply login austin ibm com organization ibm austin lines 3 originator leapman junior austin ibm com anyone toll free \( catalog request order line \) heathkit zenith \? please post number 've got ! thanks
victor inqmind bison mb ca \( victor laking \) subject info nec 3d multisync monitor organization inquiring mind bbs 1 204 488 1607 lines 43 myers hpfcso fc hp com \( bob myers \) writes looking info get nec 3d monitor know multisync plan buying one second hand depending specs anyone know min max frequencies , whether interlaced , non interlaced , , video compatability , etc \? seen reference 28 pitch 1024 x 720 resolution supports svga one source n't support svga another source \( neither source seemed much reliable info n't want take guess \) i'm home right , away monitor files following top head , subject revision , worth ya pay sort info n't hear anyone spec sheet hand , e mail 'll look i'm remembering correctly , 3d 14 0 28 mm pitch multisync covers least vga \( 31 5 khz horizontal , 60 hz vertical \) 1024 x 768 60 hz \( going 48 khz horizontal \) may go somewhat higher horizontal , wo n't happy anything beyond 1024 x 768 14 0 28 tube probably wo n't thrilled 1024 x 768 tube , sync display \( prefer least 16 0 28 resolution \) since svga 800x600 , 'll horizontal range probably goes lower 31 5 , n't know goes way straight ntsc rate tv \( need 15 75 khz sweep \) far video compatibility \( i'm reading question right wo n't take anything analog rgb inputs words , way decode ntsc c video inputs would need sort board conversion like sorts things let display ntsc vga display hopefully , , 'll see response mine , 'll remind look stuff confirm \( force post hasty retraction ! \) ok , impression accepted digital input still n't know sure accepts interlaced non interlaced gotten conflicting info victor inqmind bison mb ca inquiring mind bbs , winnipeg , manitoba 204 488 1607
ee sun ac za \( \) subject wide band analog time delay organization rhodes university , grahamstown , south africa x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 6 hi , looking wide band analog time delay \( phase delay \) variable 200 microseconds 2 milliseconds please reply via email firga sun ac za
jmichael vnet ibm com subject hardware pc article almaden lines 7 find copy 8088 assembler language programming ibm pc , 2nd ed pub sams , discussion game control adapter , , conversion uses , well assembler program need greater accuracy , reason could n't modify approach suit needs jim
scst83 csc liv ac uk \( mr c smith \) subject pal \( \) programer \? organization computer science , liverpool university lines 27 nntp posting host goyt csc liv ac uk sci electronics fenian dell com writes anyone know reasonable circuit programming pals \? interested programming wide range would happy something could handle thereabouts would interested information subject programing pals etc better know start something , always say often saves packet well ! ! thanks advance chris \) name mr chris smith twang guitar ! scst83 uk ac liv uni liverpool university quest build hardware computer science ever sun may , certainly ball flaming gas ! h lawrence views expressed , reflect private thought
huey udel edu \( chuck \) subject heathkit zenith nntp posting host huey udel edu organization university delaware , newark lines 7 article austin ibm com login austin ibm com writes anyone toll free \( catalog request order line \) heathkit zenith \? please post number 've got ! thanks 1 800 253
long spk hp com \( jerry long \) subject principle article spk distribution na organization hewlett packard lines 31 x newsreader tin version 1 1 4 pl6 william \( ee ubc ca \) wrote anybody know hand held used police works \? would like hear general problem detecting smells machine thanks , william ee ubc ca read little gadgets , works principle sensing unit chemical matrix produces electrical voltage proportional amount chemical compound designed case believe group \? \? \? also heard tested \) since common gasoline also member group , also cause failing failure ! next time get stopped dui , say gas neighbors car \( know oklahoma credit card \) chances wo n't get dui ticket ! ! ! ! jerry long long spk hp com disclaimer opinions reflect employer
sail labs tek com \( ken \) subject rf data transmission article sail distribution usa organization tektronix inc , beaverton , lines 10 need shelf method transmitting small amounts data 300 feet data low speed encoded needed low power transmitting end would plus fcc certified product would prefered pointers products companies 'd appreciate hearing thanks , ken
massey travis llnl gov subject jacob 's ladder article travis 1993apr6 1 organization lawrence livermore national laboratory lines 15 nntp posting host travis llnl gov article murdoch acc virginia edu , dgj2y kelvin seas virginia edu \( david glen jacobowitz \) writes 've wanting build tesla coil quite awhile \( n't , right \? \) thought would good step build jacob 's ladder first well , looking high voltage transformer reasonable inexpensive \( neon sign transformers cost mucho \) past 've managed buy used neon sign transformers sign shops 20 try calling around warren n massey massey travis llnl gov lawrence livermore national laboratory 7000 east ave , p box 808 , l 495 livermore , calif 94550 opinions mine alone \( 510 \) 422 1958
pw panix com \( paul wallich \) subject help ultra long timing organization r us lines 16 sunb ocs mq edu au johnh macadam mpce mq edu au \( john haddy \) writes article athena cs uga edu , mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) writes instead , use quartz crystal divide frequency 2 40 times something like would n't crystal affected cold \? gut feeling , mechanically resonating device , extreme cold likely affect compliance \( \? terminology \? \) quartz , hence resonant frequency yes , fairly way 40 distance absolute zero case 're going borrow space bio lab someone test calibrate darling anyway btw , 're probably going want big capacitors found fire solenoid high current drain frozen batteries ugly thing paul
moffatt bnr ca \( john thomson \) subject zero db \? \? \? \? nntp posting host organization bell northern research , ottawa , canada x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 47 joseph chiu \( josephc cco caltech edu \) wrote sehari iastate edu \( babak sehari \) writes similarly , people usually use db dbm another common mistake spelling ``db'' instead ``db'' article see company , mother capitalized thus , decibell \( , l , tenth bell \) part original bell example , southwestern bell decibell hat pull one \? db ratio ! measure current , amp , actually named amp company amphenol company companies revolutionized electronics simulatenously realizing performance connectors sockets affected amount current running wires sorry unit current ampere name french man named ampere studied electrical current term amp abbreviation company amp came ampere unit already use ohmite company first characterize resistances numbers , thus use ohms n't know one , n't sound right alexander graham bell , actually , bell came well got one thing right ! actually , bel refers highest regards , babak sehari joseph chiu josephc cco caltech edu os 2 gotta get thing ! msc 380 caltech pasadena , ca 91126 os 2 operating system tomorrow , today 1 818 449 5457 greg moffatt bell northern research inc , ottawa canada opinions bnr 's
dtmedin catbyte b30 ingr com \( dave medin \) subject police radar work \? \? reply dtmedin catbyte b30 ingr com organization intergraph corporation , huntsville al lines 35 article 1993apr2 walter bellcore com , deaddio ski bellcore com \( michael deaddio \) writes question 2 right doppler \( spell different every time , maybe one right \) effect , radar get accurate reading car containing moving \? \? would seem \( thats worth \) would need calibrated speedometer car containing \? \? fairly sure n't case , whats deal \? \? essentially , actually done radar gun tied speedometer car , independent speedometer gun processes two doppler returns speed car relative pavement speed target , taking difference two guns moving mode actually split beam one beam aimed preferentially pavement car driver good article traffic radar , back 1985 used contents references defend bogus radar measured ticket detailed moving mode , easier defend increased amount variables dave medin phone \( 205 \) 730 3169 \( w \) ssd networking \( 205 \) 837 1174 \( h \) intergraph corp gd3004 internet dtmedin catbyte b30 ingr com huntsville , al 35894 uucp uunet ! ingr ! b30 ! catbyte ! dtmedin everywhere look \( least around office \) opinions expressed mine \( machine \)
scst83 csc liv ac uk \( chris smith \) subject books info audio dsp \? \? distribution rec , sci organization computer science , liverpool university lines 28 nntp posting host goyt csc liv ac uk sci electronics , rec audio david writes assume appropriate newsgroups question looking good book , articles , anything audio dsp theory nice , i'm really looking something much applications side want look new hobby , need direction get comments would welcome , i'm looking build dsp guitar processing hence lots background information would really useful ! anyone 's got info , could email thanks advance chris \) name mr chris smith twang guitar ! scst83 uk ac liv csc uni liverpool university quest build hardware computer science ever sun may , certainly ball flaming gas ! h lawrence views expressed , reflect private thought
gerald belton ozonehole com \( gerald belton \) subject pc games \( joystick \) port article 442 uupcb reply gerald belton ozonehole com \( gerald belton \) distribution world organization ozone online operations , inc , dba ozone hole bbs lines 29 subject says could someone tell pinout pc type analogue joystick port \? joystick 1 5 vdc 2 button 1 3 x axis 4 ground 5 ground 6 axis 7 button 2 8 5 vdc joystick b 9 5 vdc 10 button 1 11 x axis 12 ground 13 axis 14 button 2 15 5 vdc slmr 2 1 soft judges make hardened criminals ozone hole bbs private bulletin board service \( 504 \) 891 3142 3 full service nodes usrobotics 16 8k bps 10 gigs 100 , 000 files skydive new orleans ! rime network mail hub 500 usenet newsgroups please route questions inquiries postmaster ozonehole com
dtmedin catbyte b30 ingr com \( dave medin \) subject police radar work \? \? reply dtmedin catbyte b30 ingr com organization intergraph corporation , huntsville al lines 25 article 1993apr2 walter bellcore com , deaddio ski bellcore com \( michael deaddio \) writes split two , one beam aimed target car \( sort \) ground speeds final number actually , true expensive ones , cheaper ones read speedometer 've never seen speedometer reading model sure \? makes \? consider difficulty reading speedo various makes cars use 've seen single beam moving mode split beam moving mode dave medin phone \( 205 \) 730 3169 \( w \) ssd networking \( 205 \) 837 1174 \( h \) intergraph corp gd3004 internet dtmedin catbyte b30 ingr com huntsville , al 35894 uucp uunet ! ingr ! b30 ! catbyte ! dtmedin everywhere look \( least around office \) opinions expressed mine \( machine \)
dtmedin catbyte b30 ingr com \( dave medin \) subject hv diodes reply dtmedin catbyte b30 ingr com organization intergraph corporation , huntsville al lines 25 article 1993apr2 mprgate mpr ca , vanderby mprgate mpr ca \( david vanderbyl \) writes dtmedin catbyte b30 ingr com \( dave medin \) writes crt , fact , intentional built capacitor function ic 's built transistors , etc gee , mr myers , going let go without correction \? two things 1 read posts agreeing bob correction needed 2 n't quote stuff context dave medin phone \( 205 \) 730 3169 \( w \) ssd networking \( 205 \) 837 1174 \( h \) intergraph corp gd3004 internet dtmedin catbyte b30 ingr com huntsville , al 35894 uucp uunet ! ingr ! b30 ! catbyte ! dtmedin everywhere look \( least around office \) opinions expressed mine \( machine \)
uxa cso uiuc edu \( jeffrey curtis \) subject zero db \? \? \? \? organization university illinois urbana lines 19 moffatt bnr ca \( john thomson \) writes hat pull one \? db ratio ! sorry unit current ampere name french man named ampere studied electrical current term amp abbreviation company amp came ampere unit already use n't know one , n't sound right well got one thing right ! hello \? john \? oh , nevermind jeff jeffrey curtis uiuc edu full , power 37 revel role self appointed sony phase linear critics establishment jensen polk proton inxs welcome wherever
cs okstate edu \( cary david allen \) subject self modifying hardware organization oklahoma state university , computer science , stillwater lines 70 permit quote fragments praetzel sunee uwaterloo ca 's article context newsgroups sci electronics , comp lsi cad praetzel sunee uwaterloo ca \( eric praetzel \) date 10 feb 93 15 46 41 gmt currently format know least person university able get signing non disclosure agreement bit map format pretty well top secret would love know could make self modifying hardware \) reverse eng tools dump bit map runs computer hardware key self modifying hardware could interesting computers could write thier programs \( assemblers , compilers \) immense breakthrough calculators could n't eagerly await programmable gate array uses pd format cost first born program till keep reverse engineering whatever one company worked gone needed make product competitive could afford end could say could afford use management discovered late eric condolences ca n't even imagine could self hardware imagine self modifying software , even though teachers say 's bad , even worse goto , check experts used say self modifying code \( uses orders rather \) principles large scale computing machines von neumann , collected john von neumann collected works , vol v reprinted absolutely permission anyone plan full size \( 40 binary digit \) word hold either contain 1 full size number \( equivalent 12 decimal digits , use first binary digit denote sign \) two \( 20 binary digit \) orders added technique automatic orders , e machine 's ability modify orders \( control ones among orders \) absolutely necessary flexible code thus , part memory used function table , looking value function value variable obtained course computation requires machine modify , rather make , reference memory order controls looking , machine make modification already calculated value variable question hand , ability machine modify orders one things makes coding non trivial operation view david cary , tenor , e comp engineering \( finger cs okstate edu \) 227 163 e ave , tulsa , ok , usa , sol 3 , universe v 1 2 david cary , tenor , e comp engineering \( finger cs okstate edu \) 227 163 e ave , tulsa , ok , usa , sol 3 , universe v 1 2
rsd sei cmu edu \( richard \) subject zero db \? \? \? \? organization software engineering institute lines 10 article gap caltech edu , joseph chiu writes ohmite company first characterize resistances numbers , thus use ohms yeah , right company started george simon ohmite rich
jgd dixie com \( john de armond \) subject help ultra long timing article dixie 8 v ! 0a organization dixie communications public access mouth south lines 44 wellison kuhub cc ukans edu writes project lap somewhat pain design looking stable ultra long solid state timer want place thing ice shelf measure amount snow fall period six weeks every two weeks , want trip discharge different colored pellets gas pressure across snow digging snow , snow fall amount measured come different color pellets problem trying build timer would stand cold \( 40 degrees \) power source would n't drain looked xr timers standard dual timers , thier temp specs wo n't go low also , two weeks equates 1 , 209 , 600 seconds per firing , means one big timing cap ! found 2 2 farad \( yes , farad ! \) caps working voltage 5 volts small size fooling around analog job \? single chip micro crystal job reliably easily 8748 costs 5 1 crystal 're business embed whole thing foam insulated blanket , power solar cell , use excess power heat assembly day rely insulation hold heat darkness n't want try thermal management , contact someone like icl cut special low temperature crystal 'll cost 20 use single chip micro , 're looking parts count maybe 7 processor , crystal , two caps crystal , power fet fire solenoid flyback diode battery fewer parts build analog timer infinitely reliable add power zener diode \( heat \) solar cell parts count screams 9 pd assemblers available common single chip micros application trivial could even look op codes programmer 's guide create binary hex editor john john de armond , wd4oqc interested high performance mobility \? performance engineering magazine \( tm \) interested high tech computers \? marietta , ga send ur snail mail address jgd dixie com perform dixie com free sample mag need usenet public access atlanta \? write info dixie com
jmichael vnet ibm com subject radar detector detectors \? article almaden 134 lines 3 detect oscillator operating detector saw story use canada n't go putting oscillators cars \)
scst83 csc liv ac uk \( mr c smith \) subject voltage multiplier problem organization computer science , liverpool university lines 53 nntp posting host goyt csc liv ac uk hi , 've built valve preamp use diode capacitor voltage multiplier step supply voltage approx load resistance increases , rc constant decreases hence output voltage drops need high output voltage possible \( \) circuit consists seven voltage multiplier stages \( ie 14 diodes 14 capacitors \) capacitor develops 38v across , take output across seven capacitors capacitor increase capacitors rating \( 220 \) , increase rc constant , hence alleviate problem capacitors going little expensive need 14 , 1 would happen connected capacitor parallel output \( hence parallel seven capacitors \) \? , assume , increase c circuit hence increase rc time constant \? , output voltage becomes stable , killed two birds one stone experiencing ripple \( hence amp hum \) , new capacitor 2 anyone recomend suitable value \( choke \) placed output line power supply filter mains hum lowest resistance possible ! 've got preamp moment much distraction \( i'm university 've got get dissertation finished two weeks ! ! ! ! ! ! ! \) hence i'm mailing playing iron \( 'll cheaper long run especially 14 new large capacitors n't work planned ! \) email please ca n't always read net thanks advance chris \) name mr chris smith twang guitar ! scst83 uk ac liv csc uni liverpool university quest build hardware computer science ever sun may , certainly ball flaming gas ! h lawrence views expressed , reflect private thought
gaul csd uwo ca \( luke \) subject speaker design software \? organization computer science dept , univ western ontario , london , canada summary searching speaker software shareware freeware keywords speaker , design , software nntp posting host obelix gaul csd uwo ca lines 13 hi i'm looking software aid friend mine designing speakers type software exist \? anyone point toward shareware freeware product description , would ideal steve van der \( using friend 's account \) \( p excuse message i'm difficulty readable sentences together today , reason \) luke
jmichael vnet ibm com subject electric power line balls article almaden 248 lines 4 power lines airplanes n't mix areas lines high , lot crop takes place , danger airplanes flying lines , place plastic balls lines easier spot
behnke fnalf fnal gov \( l behnke \) subject electric power line balls article fnnews reply behnke fnalf fnal gov distribution usa organization fermi national accelerator lab lines 27 nntp posting host fnalf fnal gov article 1993apr6 eagle lerc nasa gov , fsset bach lerc nasa gov \( scott townsend \) writes got question dad really ca n't answer 'd appreciate net wisdom question 18 24 diameter balls attached electric power lines area 's seen half dozen two poles neither us experience electric power distribution guess may capacitive device equalize inductance grid , many two poles \? anyone know really \? related faq \? better group submit \? 'd appreciate enlightenment balls used reduce amplitude wire periods high winds 've seen looks like paint cans filled concrete used purpose mike behnke senior tech advisor quid est aqua \? \? fermi nat accel lab equipment batavia , il computing div ! ! ! ! behnke fnalf fnal gov opinions , lab , n't like , call 1 800
dtmedin catbyte b30 ingr com \( dave medin \) subject oscilloscope triggering reply dtmedin catbyte b30 ingr com organization intergraph corporation , huntsville al lines 55 article murdoch acc virginia edu , dgj2y kelvin seas virginia edu \( david glen jacobowitz \) writes someone explain exactly feature found \? lots og good explanation deleted lots deleted , anybody else like digital scopes school 100mhz hp digital , including soft keys , think touch \( , software keys \) n't forget dealing computer scopes even , still make looking waves lotsa features , ugly output best ever seen 've seen lot cheaper look terrible think hangup digital scopes know much work scope scope basis , functions typically presented , opinion , counter intuitive fashion \( hp made strides series , imo \) automatic setups fine simple , repetitive waveforms , give crazy results complex events need understand scope actually measuring processing event example , scope equivalent time real time sampling mode \( equivalent time mode samples built slowly adding delay trigger event sweep \) \? scope 's actual sampling rate time \? data massaged capture display , etc one common misconception speed scope hp scope 're using really 100 mhz scope \? 20 mhz sample rate scope \( 5 mhz single shot significance \) whose front end including h support 100 mhz waveforms \( important equivalent time sampling \) \? 100 mhz input case really helps waveform repetitive , single sample , get lucky hit transient event sample time , lot variables understanding get useful information digital scope prefer analog scope general use digital events need storage later analysis comparison , event within capability scope , price true 100 mhz digital scopes fall dave medin phone \( 205 \) 730 3169 \( w \) ssd networking \( 205 \) 837 1174 \( h \) intergraph corp gd3004 internet dtmedin catbyte b30 ingr com huntsville , al 35894 uucp uunet ! ingr ! b30 ! catbyte ! dtmedin everywhere look \( least around office \) opinions expressed mine \( machine \)
heinboke tnt uni hannover de \( andreas \) subject looking ad pc board reply heinboke tnt uni hannover de organization universitaet hannover , lines 41 friend mine please send answers directly \( e mail adress see \) ! highspeed analog digital pc board hello ladies gentleman ! looking highspeed pc board sampling rate 250 mhz resolution 8 bit sampling rate arranged interleave mode time equivalent sampling yields 2 , 4 8 times higher sampling rate converter uses non interleave mode board must content converter similar analog devices ad ad available faster pc board \( 16 bit slot , isa \) specification better , please send email uni hannover dbp de telefax 49 511 thanks advance help ! sincerely matthias , university hannover , germany andreas heinboke tnt uni hannover de wisdom print shirts
gmc cthulhu semi harris com subject zero db \? \? \? \? nntp posting host cthulhu mlb semi harris com organization analog lines 57 article 1993apr6 bnr ca moffatt bnr ca \( john thomson \) writes joseph chiu \( josephc cco caltech edu \) wrote thus , decibell \( , l , tenth bell \) part original bell example , southwestern bell decibell hat pull one \? db ratio ! measure current , amp , actually named amp company amphenol company companies revolutionized electronics simulatenously realizing performance connectors sockets affected amount current running wires sorry unit current ampere name french man named ampere studied electrical current term amp abbreviation company amp came ampere unit already use ohmite company first characterize resistances numbers , thus use ohms n't know one , n't sound right alexander graham bell , actually , bell came well got one thing right ! actually , think j chiu knows score silly however , decibel fact 1 10th bel right one , n't know accidental strictly defined , bel ratio log two power levels , decibel 1 10th bel 10x every bel , hence bel log \( p2 p1 \) decibel \( p2 p1 \) bel , ohm , volt , farad , ampere , watt , hertz , henry , etc named pioneers field 's traditional fine way honor researchers discover new knowledge new field hertz one important early electronics explorers , left term unit named recently , \( 1960 's , prior hertz cps \) units defined many decades earlier
cab col hp com \( chris best \) subject police radar work \? \? organization service lines 7 nntp posting host hpctdkz col hp com 've seen several references split separate beam radars , claimed n't exist gotta eat crow n't aware really knew done one beam believe rest said accurate , though crow \( oops wrong group \)
ragee vdoe386 vak12ed edu \( randy agee \) subject radar detector detectors \? organization virginia 's public education network \( richmond \) lines 50 's one hope knowledgeable readers make comment contribution state virginia radar detectors illegal , period caught one confiscated spot returned appear court pay fine fine radar detector accessible motor vehicle \( even \) 250 00 sorry , tourist , ignorance law excuse get ! used way law could enforced officer actually see radar detector ! many law enforcement agencies using radar detector detectors right , super sensitive receiver capable picking rf radar detector first reaction way ! , guess , little buggers really work police writing citations right left people using radar detectors one news story quoted officer saying found radar detector cars stopped except one , could never figure knew tends make one assume false arrest , get flamed , please understand drive near speed limit need radar detector keep getting speeding ticket , like know speed clocked speed trap functioning radar detector stays locked trunk virginia \( want yes , law says , intend obey law ! \) used states legal fellow hams , microwave person mind works hf spectrum 10 80 meters microwave may necessary , questions radar detector detectors actually detect \? would additional shielding grounding bypassing shield stray rf generated radar detector , rf actually emitted detector antenna \? brands quieter others \? randy agee ars point , probably pondered p box 20th floor meaning life , came virginia department education satisfactory answer , richmond , va stood test time , shrugged phone \( 804 \) 225 mightily , muttered beats heck ragee vdoe386 vak12ed edu , ordered
scst83 csc liv ac uk \( mr c smith \) subject telephone audio 300 3000 hz \? organization computer science , liverpool university lines 47 nntp posting host goyt csc liv ac uk telephone systems capability 4khz reason implement backward compatable every telephone system addition , mix electrical , close , banana \( paraphrase garfield \) reason 300 3300 hz used voice channels used occupy 4khz bands multiplexed trunk line therefore , bottom , top band filtered minimise interference next band nowadays , digital trunks made less relevant , phone companies still see reason improve quality \( especially free ! \) therefore , digital chunk trunk segments still guaranteed bandwidth 4khz \( carry equivalent one analog line \) clock rate standard t1 e1 digital trunk 's historical uk , bandwidth restriction apparently apply local lines ie used average domestic client private lines run local exchange leasing client usually capable higher bandwidth exchange digital n't quote think remember bt engineer saying something effect work shadowing years ago ! chris \) name mr chris smith twang guitar ! scst83 uk ac liv csc uni liverpool university quest build hardware computer science ever sun may , certainly ball flaming gas ! h lawrence views expressed , reflect private thought
sol cie es subject video io ideas \? organization free university berlin , germany lines 7 anyone idea build cheap , low resolution \( high \) video projector \( example lcd slide projector \)
linnig dseg ti com \( mike linnig \) subject books info audio dsp \? \? reply scst83 csc liv ac uk 's message 6 apr 93 13 36 13 gmt nntp posting host dseg ti com organization texas instruments , defense , systems electronics group compsci liverpool ac uk distribution rec , sci lines 25 article compsci liverpool ac uk scst83 csc liv ac uk \( chris smith \) writes i'm looking build dsp guitar processing hence lots background information would really useful ! anyone 's got info , could email well , i'm sure 'd use process guitar audio filter dsp construction article sept 92 issue qst magazine \( ham radio oriented \) dsp available kit form 120 particular dsp filter targetted toward processing audio remove noise \( static \) built really works well source code available makes noisy audio signal much easier hear note communication applications high fidelity mike linnig , texas instruments inc 97 43 statistics made phone \( 214 \) 575 call \( 83 6 percent \) internet mike linnig dseg ti com wrong
mpaul unl edu \( marxhausen paul \) subject kill ac inductive load spiking \? organization university nebraska lincoln lines 20 distribution world nntp posting host unlinfo unl edu fast 'n dirty way kill line spiking occurs inductive load turned sometime zero crossing ac cycle \? capacitor somehow , etc \? 've got microcontroller running bunch valves pumps big instrument washer , almost everything switched zero crossing solid state relays , stuff stays quiet , ac wise 's one steam valve gets turned mechanical relay water tank fill thermostat system , 's control , sometimes generate radiate spike resets one peripheral chips software times tries , 'd love tack magic spike killing fix would avoid major redesign would help might sufficient ideas \? paul marxhausen university nebraska lincoln grace happens
vanderby mprgate mpr ca \( david vanderbyl \) subject police radar work \? \? nntp posting host chip reply vanderby mprgate mpr ca \( david vanderbyl \) organization mpr teltech ltd lines 22 article 1993apr6 b30 ingr com , dtmedin catbyte b30 ingr com \( dave medin \) writes article 1993apr2 walter bellcore com , deaddio ski bellcore com \( michael deaddio \) writes split two , one beam aimed target car \( sort \) ground speeds final number actually , true expensive ones , cheaper ones read speedometer 've never seen speedometer reading model sure \? makes \? consider difficulty reading speedo various makes cars use 've seen single beam moving mode split beam moving mode obviously police officer reads speedometer cannot believe picking group 's 2 beams , , , etc dave medin 's 10 line sig deleted
matt ksu ksu edu \( neal patrick howland \) subject radar detector detectors \? organization kansas state university lines 23 nntp posting host matt ksu ksu edu ragee vdoe386 vak12ed edu \( randy agee \) writes used way law could enforced officer actually see radar detector ! many law enforcement agencies using radar detector detectors right , super sensitive receiver capable picking rf radar detector first reaction way ! , guess , little buggers really work police writing citations right left people using radar detectors one news story quoted officer saying found radar detector cars stopped except one , could never figure knew tends make one assume false arrest understand radar passive device much like radio car work antenna picking radar signals radar gun sends therefore would way detecting radar detector would detecting whether one radio car neal howland matt ksu ksu edu
dtmedin catbyte b30 ingr com \( dave medin \) subject u look \? \? reply dtmedin catbyte b30 ingr com organization intergraph corporation , huntsville al lines 43 article 1993apr2 1749 cmkrnl com , jeh cmkrnl com writes might add collecting last year 's data books \( even ones two years date \) usually pretty cheap , benefits besides usually want base design brand new chip may bugs availability may limited data sheets may missing critical information show ap notes next year 's data books kinda like buying version 1 0 major new software package sometimes get lucky , n't count two reasons save old databooks beyond two years obsoleted parts better application notes tutorials part dropped future production planning , national mm series white noise generators , camera sync generators , etc , disappear current databooks although still may produced short time \( available stock somewhere \) , old plans calling device , dead gadget workbench part , 'll know functions substitute necessary old ge data books contain real good tutorials scr applications found elsewhere , example summary , read read ! read ! ! ! 's 'll know design , parts use , solve problem boss presented helps memory details , ! dave medin phone \( 205 \) 730 3169 \( w \) ssd networking \( 205 \) 837 1174 \( h \) intergraph corp gd3004 internet dtmedin catbyte b30 ingr com huntsville , al 35894 uucp uunet ! ingr ! b30 ! catbyte ! dtmedin everywhere look \( least around office \) opinions expressed mine \( machine \)
keith radio nl nuwc navy mil subject tektronix 453 scope sale article radio 623 lines 19 x received usenet pa dec com id tue , 6 apr 93 14 52 02 0700 x received inet gw 1 pa dec com id tue , 6 apr 93 14 51 56 0700 x sci electronics usenet tektronix 453 scope sale 50mhz bandwidth portable \( one series ! \) delayed sweep works fine n't manual \( available various places \) probes 275 shipping email info regards , keith keith , radio nl nuwc navy mil
ul ie subject help wanted organization university limerick , ireland lines 8 need information circuit design especially filter design 1 range recommend good books , journals , circuit design software help appreciated gerry , ece department , limerick , ireland
mcnc org \( w dev palmer \) subject wanted hardware pc article mcnc 1993apr6 organization mcnc center microelectronics , rtp , nc lines 34 article 1993apr6 doug cae wisc edu kolstad cae wisc edu \( joel kolstad \) writes ncr mpd ftcollinsco ncr com brad wright writes know much pc 's \( ibm comp \) might try joystick port though n't tried , 've told port believe converters found joystick port really timers tick long takes r c circuit \( r paddle \) charge something like 1 2 vcc games works pretty well , certainly would n't want try take lab measurements something non linear best info seen far article joystick metrics measuring physical properties pc 's joystick port michael covington may 1985 issue pc tech journal talks read kinds things \( voltage , current , resistance \) basic , even includes code simple oscilloscope display 's possible read joystick port directly n't want use basic detailed information pc technical reference options adapters provide resolution timing functions , 's subject appeared many times articles dr dobb 's , circuit cellar ink , etc look public domain package wuarchive good luck , dev palmer mcnc org mcnc room 212 p box rtp , nc 2889 \( 919 \) 248 \( 919 \) 248 fax
paj uk co gec mrc \( paul johnson \) subject peltier effect heat pumps reply paj uk co gec mrc \( paul johnson \) organization gec marconi research centre , great baddow , essex lines 45 look couple components catalogues came across range peltier effect heat pumps intended cooling components heard effect , put current one devices , pumps heat one side reverse current reverse effect think temperature difference give emf well anyway , struck could make nice cool hot box one , power regulator , thermostat couple heat sinks biggest device shift 60w efficiency 80 90 , ai n't bad \( although would flatten car battery half hour \) unfortunately catalogue n't list anything basic specs heat pump imagine would get back emf temperature gradient across device increases , presumably power decreases back emf increases , eventually steady state current consumed \( assuming leakage \) , final temperature difference two sides could set supply voltage nothing \( although would lousy way control \) would like know 1 guesses correct \? 2 open circuit thermal resistance typical device \? \( want sure going get warm fast unplug \) 3 peltier effect heat pump actually work \? looks like magic ! 4 n't use things domestic \? thanks advance , paul paul johnson \( paj gec mrc co uk \) tel 44 245 73331 ext 3245 ideas others like gec marconi research 0 02 reputable idealist responsible opinions
edinboro edu subject outdoor fm antennas organization edinboro university pa lines 25 article 9 0 ccmail dayton saic com , ccmail dayton saic com \( beer \) writes i'm interested buying building antenna commercial fm band \( 88 \) commonly sold ones folded bent shape one pair crossed n't see either designs exhibiting gain , probably n't truely i'm antenna anyone detailed information design one fm band \( 75 ohm impedence \) \? \? one commercially available \? \? designs gain \? \? already 10 element fm works great , requires frequent rotation distant stations brad beer , castle gate drive , , oh brad , antenna , gain synonymous way get gain \( 1 \) antenna design gain antenna defined signal increase \( preferred direction \) signal obtained isotropic antenna bob edinboro univ pa
ns1 cc lehigh edu \( richard white \) subject help ultra long timing organization lehigh university lines 49 article 1993apr5 kuhub cc ukans edu , wellison kuhub cc ukans e du writes project lap somewhat pain design looking stable ultra long solid state timer want place thing ice shelf measure amount snow fall period six weeks every two weeks , want trip discharge different colored pellets gas pressure across snow digging snow , snow fall amount measured come different color pellets problem trying build timer would stand cold \( 40 degrees \) power source would n't drain looked xr timers standard dual timers , thier temp specs wo n't go low also , two weeks equates 1 , 209 , 600 seconds per firing , means one big timing cap ! found 2 2 farad \( yes , farad ! \) caps working voltage 5 volts small size , time discharge 40 lower degrees n't linear thinking using several timers chained together fire end timing period , blasted cold drain battery six weeks pain one possibility would use solar panels , six month twilight anyone good ideas \? thanks advance wes suggestion take motorola set give pulse every sec ten secs either rc clock input feed clock input decode output 1 , 209 , 600 sec output , might add gates decoder chips get output reset pulse back restart cycle trigger decoded edge one shot goes mosfet drive mechanism fire pellet launcher require current , 5 15 volts , 12 volt gel cell would last six weeks take board battery wrap 3 4 foam build box stuff plywood metal exterior build small heater 10 50 watt resistors series keep battery warm 2nd thought use 2 batteries one heater one timer pellet trigger even though chips state al rated devices good 55 c batteries considerable reduction capacity oh make sure area inside air leakage hope helps rw \( long winded net \? \? \) \( gentle \)
rg futserv austin ibm com \( r g keen \) subject electronics press peel pcb transfer reply futserv austin ibm com ! rg organization ibm advanced workstations systems lines 12 think huge difference materials process printer toner pcb 's get first time , everytime results local hp postscript , hardly ever works copies artwork printer results good quit even looking pc board processes use copier version , would think would look elsewhere moral \? experiment find works toner transfer give excellent results , like process , gives erratic results variable inputs r g
fsset bach lerc nasa gov \( scott townsend \) subject electric power line balls nntp posting host bach lerc nasa gov organization nasa lewis research center cleveland , ohio distribution usa lines 18 got question dad really ca n't answer 'd appreciate net wisdom question 18 24 diameter balls attached electric power lines area 's seen half dozen two poles neither us experience electric power distribution guess may capacitive device equalize inductance grid , many two poles \? anyone know really \? related faq \? better group submit \? 'd appreciate enlightenment scott townsend , sverdrup technology inc nasa lewis research center group fsset bach lerc nasa gov
jack multimedia cc gatech edu \( tom rodriguez \) subject composite video hd vd \? article jack organization multimedia computing group lines 19 've got rgb monitor back 5 bnc connectors labeled like composite hd vd sync red green blue 've used straight rgb ca n't figure use composite could someone explain markings mean \? thanks help tom tom rodriguez \( jack cc gatech edu \) multimedia computing group lab georgia institute technology atlanta , georgia 30332
netcom com \( greg andrews \) subject radar detector detectors \? organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 25 matt ksu ksu edu \( neal patrick howland \) writes understand radar passive device much like radio car work antenna picking radar signals radar gun sends therefore would way detecting radar detector would detecting whether one radio car unfortunately , 're wrong counts common method implementing receiver local oscillator local oscillator 's frequency radiated receiver via antenna unless circuit designed constructed great care reference detecting radios , get paperback book spy catcher author discovered detect radio receivers local oscillator emissions back 1950s worked british intelligence greg greg andrews netcom com fortune cookie radioactive cats 18 half lives
behnke fnalf fnal gov \( l behnke \) subject peltier effect heat pumps organization fermi national accelerator lab lines 66 reply behnke fnalf fnal gov nntp posting host fnalf fnal gov article snap , paj uk co gec mrc \( paul johnson \) writes look couple components catalogues came across range peltier effect heat pumps intended cooling components heard effect , put current one devices , pumps heat one side reverse current reverse effect think temperature difference give emf well anyway , struck could make nice cool hot box one , power regulator , thermostat couple heat sinks biggest device shift 60w efficiency 80 90 , ai n't bad \( although would flatten car battery half hour \) called cool hot boxes several years recall advertising recent catalog problem units sh job keeping food cold warm devices used n't seem enough punch keep want something hot , need heat put box , end hours later food thats moderately warm goes cold items unfortunately catalogue n't list anything basic specs heat pump imagine would get back emf temperature gradient across device increases , presumably power decreases back emf increases , eventually steady state current consumed \( assuming leakage \) , final temperature difference two sides could set supply voltage nothing \( although would lousy way control \) would like know 1 guesses correct \? 2 open circuit thermal resistance typical device \? \( want sure going get warm fast unplug \) 'de probably better getting good coleman \( tm \) cooler stocking blue ice blocks 3 peltier effect heat pump actually work \? looks like magic ! 4 n't use things domestic \? enough punch keep get things cold hot thanks advance , paul paul johnson \( paj gec mrc co uk \) tel 44 245 73331 ext 3245 ideas others like gec marconi research 0 02 reputable idealist responsible opinions mike behnke senior tech advisor quid est aqua \? \? fermi nat accel lab equipment batavia , il computing div ! ! ! ! behnke fnalf fnal gov opinions , lab , n't like , call 1 800
sidhu ee ualberta ca \( kenneth sidhu \) subject dimming lamps article 1993apr6 reply sidhu ee ualberta ca \( kenneth sidhu \) organization university alberta electrical engineering lines 22 nntp posting host bode ee ualberta ca 's latest greatest way dim incandescent lamps \? march '93 circuit cellar part one article dimming 120vac lamps , seems lead phase control best method controlling brightness 've always hated phase control rfi , buzzing non linear adjustment range heard ac line cycle cycle basis get better results cut lamp 's power 50 would 20 cycles ac , nothing another 20 cycles wonder anyone tried knows pro stuff using advice appreciated ! ken email sidhu bode ee ualberta ca
ucs indiana edu \( gerard v \) subject low cost \? nntp posting host ucs indiana edu reply ucs indiana edu organization indiana university lines 12 looking buying low cost \( 500 \) scope general purpose use recommendations \? info faq somewhere \? pointers appreciated thanks , gerard gerard network systems ucs indiana edu university computing services fax \( 812 \) 855 indiana university voice \( 812 \) 855
mrl uiuc edu \( \) subject seeking amplifier circuit reply bitnet \( \) organization materials research lab lines 17 would like able amplify voltage signal output , preferably factor 100 1000 resulting voltage fed easily personal computer based adc data acquisition card might anyone able point references circuits \? seen simple amplifier circuits , sure well work practice case , 'd like something amplify sufficiently nicely used \( say , degrees accuracy better \) pointers would greatly appreciated !
bailey vader egr uri edu \( scott bailey \) subject jacob 's ladder summary jacob 's ladder projects keywords jacob 's ladder , projects , book organization university rhode island college engineering lines 30 hi , 've following thread jacob 's ladder weeks happened come across one best project books 've seen book 's gordon offers 55 excellent low cost projects including jacob 's ladder , tesla coils , plasma spheres , van de generator , robots , ir scope , several laser projects instructions come complete part lists , warnings diagrams interested building listed projects , seriously consider getting book paperback version 19 95 want information title 's ! 55 space age projects auth gordon pub tab books cw 1990 isbn 0 8306 7 0 8306 x \( paperback \) price 19 95 \( paperback \) scott scott bailey include std disclaimer h ecl operator computer engineering i'm knight moon university rhode island n't caught yet , n't let bailey vader egr uri edu keep still trying day night bailey uri edu \( \)
kludge grissom larc nasa gov \( scott dorsey \) subject zero db \? \? \? \? article rave organization nasa langley research center reptile farm lines 14 nntp posting host grissom larc nasa gov article 1993apr6 sei cmu edu rsd sei cmu edu \( richard \) writes article gap caltech edu , joseph chiu writes ohmite company first characterize resistances numbers , thus use ohms yeah , right company started george simon ohmite 's completely inaccurate ohm original standard made equal resistance standardized electric stove heating element 's song ohm range came , course scott
nyx cs du edu \( stewart \) subject police radar work \? \? x disclaimer nyx public access unix system run university denver denver community university neither control responsibility opinions users organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept lines 13 father friend mine police officer west virginia word skilled observer good court , skill observer tested accurate radar gun cases ! guess car 's speed within 2 watching blow whether 's standing still moving ! \( yes , 1 \) testing done , many times \? \( calibrated speedometer \? \) 2 \) 's cases worry , 's cases \) \( eg viewing conditions even best subjective viewer partial compensate certain distortions optical illusions \)
rintintin colorado edu \( kris gleason \) subject electric power line balls nntp posting host rintintin colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder distribution usa lines 23 fsset bach lerc nasa gov \( scott townsend \) writes got question dad really ca n't answer 'd appreciate net wisdom question 18 24 diameter balls attached electric power lines area 's seen half dozen two poles neither us experience electric power distribution guess may capacitive device equalize inductance grid , many two poles \? anyone know really \? related faq \? better group submit \? 'd appreciate enlightenment think make lines visible airplanes helicopters cheaper blinking red lights 'course could wrong kris
eniac seas upenn edu \( jeff \) subject need manual hp scope organization university pennsylvania lines 14 nntp posting host eniac seas upenn edu hp scope \( think \) problem hv section symptom started turning , making bright flashes crt , finally , passed away manual \( suggestions \) , please send mail gladly pay reproduction shipping costs plus little efforts manual thanks advance jeff jeff twisted pair \( 215 \) 337 387 eniac seas upenn edu rf 443 800 mhz 442 700 mhz 24 150 ghz university pennsylvania
acs calpoly edu \( mark \) subject zero db \? \? \? \? article zeus 1993apr06 organization academic computing services , cal poly san luis obispo lines 13 ohmite company first characterize resistances numbers , thus use ohms n't know one , n't sound right damn right n't ! ohm 's come greek letter omega , used resistance impedance course , original poster may \( let 's hope \) mark cosmos acs calpoly edu
jimc tau ceti isc br com \( jim cathey \) subject video questions organization olivetti north america , spokane , wa lines 28 article hpfcso fc hp com myers hpfcso fc hp com \( bob myers \) writes situation sometimes called block sync \) generate combined \( composite \) sync two simple ways h v together , gives non block sync , , makes \( try ! \) actually , n't really kosher sync , since puts rising \( falling , matter \) edge h sync pulse pulse width usually makes difference sometimes depends monitor timing n't enough vertical front porch use xor composite sync get even odd tearing top screen , sensitive control looks like would expect scanned even fields \( say \) onto sheet mylar pinched upper left corner fingers started tear tube proper composite sync \( pulses \) rock solid ! ii ! jim cathey ! ii ! isc bunker ! ii cc ! taf c8 spokane , wa ! cc ! uucp uunet ! isc br ! jimc \( jimc isc br isc br com \) ! ii ! \( 509 \) 927 one design rule one design find one design bring darkness bind land mediocrity pc 's lie
hal gnu ai mit edu \( dan \) subject article hal distribution world organization dis lines 9 nntp posting host hal ai mit edu hi , looking pc card european \( pal \) anyone us sell card \? saw article card european magazine , n't able track thanx advance , dan
babb sciences sdsu edu \( j babb \) subject electric power line balls article larc babb distribution usa organization sdsu larc lines 16 nntp posting host larc sdsu edu article 1993apr6 eagle lerc nasa gov , fsset bach lerc nasa gov \( scott townsend \) wrote got question dad really ca n't answer 'd appreciate net wisdom question 18 24 diameter balls attached electric power lines area 's seen half dozen two poles neither us experience electric power distribution guess may capacitive device equalize inductance grid , many two poles \? 'll bet 's runway nearby jeff babb babb sciences sdsu edu babb ucssun1 sdsu edu programmer , sdsu larc
uucp \( robert smith \) subject conductive plastic , happened \? organization litton systems , toronto ont lines 7 're thinking reactive 're making esd safe far conductive goes anything resistance less 10 power ohms per cubic measure conductive per mil std esd protection 0 02 \( 0 us \) bob
young dick rtsg mot com \( dick young \) subject attn h wheaton , davis nntp posting host 136 182 211 36 organization motorola , inc \( cellular infrastructure \) distribution usa lines 11 tried e mail , message bounced motorola university support program \( 've told \) folks schools get sample quantities parts 'd like try route , e mail address phone n't wish post world see dick young motorola , inc \( n't thing opinions 're fault \)
advax reg triumf ca \( \) subject radar detector detectors \? organization triumf tri university meson facility lines 24 distribution world nntp posting host reg triumf ca news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article matt ksu ksu edu , matt ksu ksu edu \( neal patrick howland \) writes understand radar passive device much like radio car work antenna picking radar signals radar gun sends therefore would way detecting radar detector would detecting whether one radio car rather rusty knowledge radio , radio receivers use circuit , incoming signal mixed local oscillator , giving fixed intermediate frequency \( \) easily amplified detector detectors work picking radiated radar detector britain , one used pay tv licence , tv detector vans streets , looking people n't paid licence fee couple long solenoid antennae roof , believe could operating tv wonder much radiated back detector antenna , much rest module might worth putting detector proper rf shielded enclosure andrew , vancouver , canada advax triumf ca finger advax reg triumf ca pgp key
mark sps mot com \( mark shaw \) subject rumors nntp posting host 223 199 55 11 organization motorola western mcu design center , chandler arizona lines 17 article 1993apr2 cs unca edu , kepley photon phys unca edu \( brad kepley \) writes heard unbelievable rumor motorola decided drop integrated circuit manufacture business apparently digikey rep called one production , information could make plans deal , moto getting anybody else get call \? much 's like intel announcing getting ic business rumor n't happen appear april 1st \? digikey rep serious , think buy parts elsewhere way business , cannot trust mark
joseph n andrew cmu edu subject electric power line balls organization freshman , electrical computer engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 5 distribution usa nntp posting host andrew cmu edu reply 1993apr6 eagle lerc nasa gov know airport nearby \? may markers tell pilots small planes power lines nearby joe
msuvx1 memst edu subject home made ir remote extender organization memphis state university lines 19 's question electrical engineers bought detector radio shack 3 95 little gizmo senses infrared remotes produces output signal hooked output transistor infrared led circuit works like remote control extender car remote commands relayed cd player hidden glove compartment works fine cd player , tried build circuit friend 's vcr , n't work circuit appears work remotes \( see infrared sony ccd camcorder \) coincidentally seems work cd player advice would appreciated brian msuvx1 memst edu
et teal csn org \( eric h taylor \) subject holes practical questions , philosophical question summary preferentially amplify holes instead electrons \? keywords holes electrons semi conductors mobility nntp posting host teal csn org organization 4 l laboratories expires sun , 9 may 1993 06 00 00 gmt lines 48 article scri fsu edu scri fsu edu \( jim carr \) writes agree come nuclear physics , one often discusses particle hole certain reactions effect applying annihilation operator creating hole , subtle question longer one works , real become also quasi particles , raise sort question real entity phenomenon certainly real one ok , 've asked , new thread lines , ask 1 large hole current run thru resistor , 2 r cooling instead heating \? 2 anyone design amplifier preferentially hole currents normal electron currents \? 3 semiconductor materials highest ratio hole mobility electron mobility \? \( please quote actual test samples rather estimates based theory also , n't limited semiconductors consider also , resistors , , , conductors , magnets \( metal , ceramic \) , , etc \) notes summarize , thread far stated area holes detectable vacuum , hole particles exist presence matter previous threads stated holes exist certain semi conductors question naturally arises hole currents inside semi conductor vanish point semiconductor joined conductor \( say , copper \) n't want theoretical discussion whether holes could exist inside metal conductors , rather ask experimental discussion amplify detect currents exist also note cross posted sci electronics since becoming electronic discussion thanx , eric et force nature
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject need tone decoder circuit organization u toronto zoology lines 14 article hplsla hp com tomb hplsla hp com \( tom bruhns \) writes anybody circuit decode tone \? use tone decoder pll chip impression 's area 've played much much beloved basically obsolete want detect tone , set switched capacitor filter chip frequency , feed input , see anything comes end used good clean filters hard nowadays 're easy , results better work one man 's work henry spencer u toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
heuvel neptune iex com \( ted van den heuvel \) subject motorola originator heuvel neptune iex com organization iex lines 6 anyone know products using motorola 's neuron \( r \) chips , utilizing standard network variable types \( \) \? ted van den heuvel heuvel neptune iex com
netcom com \( richard \) subject electronic odometers \( used bmw question \? \? \? \) organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 1 bmw speedo triggered reed switch magnet assembly differential would think signal would easy reproduce
obrien hri com \( jim obrien \) subject ibm pc xt switch settings organization horizon research , inc lines 7 distribution world reply obrien bigbird hri com nntp posting host hri com got ibm pc xt documents true ibm , wondering anyone definitions 2 8 position dip switches \? thankx jim
bell hops larc nasa gov \( john bell \) subject adcom cheap products \? organization nasa langley research center lines 21 nntp posting host hops larc nasa gov article amiganet chi il us amiganet chi il us \( mike donahue \) writes mobil , going amps use balanced inputs , nice toy , i'm afraid push amps resonable price ranges taking advantage balanced inputs requires 120 rca balanced adapter umm , sound reinforcement living , used get direct boxes \( convert unbalanced 1 4 jacks balanced \) 25 , little higher quality 'll need two stereo signal , course , little adapter thingy radio sh convert rca 1 4 total cost around 50 also buy transformers quite bit less wire total cost 30 get stuff pro music shop sells sound reinforcement gear benefit \? noise hear generated cables going component balanced inputs , even run bad places , like next power lines john bell nasa langley research center bell hops larc nasa gov
moffatt bnr ca \( john thomson \) subject telephone hook hok ok circuit nntp posting host organization bell northern research , ottawa , canada x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 37 tony kidson \( tony morgan demon co uk \) wrote article lonestar org lonestar org writes mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) writes article werple apana org au zikzak apana org au \( peter thought mine since hook line aprox 48 , hook usually drops 1 led series zener say around 30v hook led hook led would work \? anyone tries tried , please let know aye , 's rub draw enough current light led , equipment phone company think 've gone hook hook state 're supposed draw current means use digital voltmeter use old phone company equipment detect might think 's something wrong cable look guys , 's problem \? want light goes 'phone hook , need run series line , mentioned previous post want light goes 'phone hook , need voltage threshold detector 're going series diode thing \( easiest \) , make sure led take current \( ca n't recall hand , 's something like \? \) greg moffatt moffatt bnr ca bell northern inc , ottawa canada opinions bnr 's
dgj2y kelvin seas virginia edu \( david glen jacobowitz \) subject dumb question function generator originator dgj2y kelvin seas virginia edu organization university virginia lines 35 new scope thought 'd save bucks buying one function generator built awhile noticed two things function generator one , seems bias even pushed , pull know adjust get signal sans random bias really annoying thing damn output wo n't go 1v p p student \( may guessed previous posts \) , often measure input various circuits build many circuits maximum input signals way less amplitude input 10 's range thing , order use function generator divide voltage thing reasonable , course , input impedance circuit going throw another resistor series output generator could ignore , little divider figure 's kind pain ass way could make little box could solve little problem box would function generator input , lower voltage give output impedance low , unchanging number would want lower voltage factor one hundred could build little buffer amp , 'd like box active quick ideas scope 's broken reasons sent shop get repaired replaced function generator way one , please help feeling stupid today , dave dgj2y virginia edu
rky57514 uxa cso uiuc edu \( tall cool one \) subject use analog multiplexer digital signals \? organization university illinois urbana lines 14 subject says use digital signals \? n't see could n't handle digital signals , could wrong anyone advice \? thanks \( \) \( \) raymond internet nimbus uiuc edu rky57514 uxa cso uiuc edu ee student university illinois compuserve , urbana champaign \( \) \( \)
edinboro edu subject emergency vehicle sensors \? traffic light \? organization edinboro university pa lines 21 article linnig dseg ti com , linnig dseg ti com \( mike linnig \) writes folks , dallas area noticed quite common see odd sensor top traffic lights least six years 've often wondered mike linnig , texas instruments inc 97 43 statistics made erie , pa system inner city called lite \( trade name \) allows police ambulance vehicles gain right way controlling traffic lights radio signals receivers look much like describe , include uhf whip antenna \( less foot tall \) light flashes let traffic know emergency vehicle taken control approaching local folklore says system invented n't know company installations operation least 30 years , going memory bob edinboro univ pa
fmg alpha smi med pitt edu \( filip gieszczykiewicz \) subject faq corrections summary pcb correction , ftp site , etc organization medical informatics , pittsburgh , pa usa lines 29 greetings received reply stating unless someone else confirms following company operating , remove lst pcb prototypes sandy , ut ronald baker south east sandy , ut tel read comm pcb faq \( commercial pcb makers \) also , n't time get faq onto sci answers like refer red tape finals , 'll see mean time , anyone know ftp site would n't mind 250k file \? \) last , new entries list \( mostly commercial institutional stuff \) wondering keep restrictions price software considered 600 include 4 digit prices also \? take care filip 'll buy vowel gieszczykiewicz best e mail fmgst pitt edu ideas mine 0 99 respond ! ! ! ! live ee major , , programming , sca , assorted dreams 200mb drive linux 100mb ms dos 100mb ms dos worried \)
cab col hp com \( chris best \) subject illusion organization service lines 15 nntp posting host hpctdkz col hp com new idea least 10 years ago got little gadget keyboard back 8 led 's vertical row front long handle wave air writes message typed keyboard air news fact 's got idea , since neat item made , believe , modeled space saber light sword something likewise theme addition using motor continuous display , polar effects addition character graphics protected chance one kick ten years ago right , since built mine '84 '85
cab col hp com \( chris best \) subject need help car stereo organization service lines 16 nntp posting host hpctdkz col hp com shot , ya never know bought \( real \) cheap equalizer power amp car tape player one motel room truckload sales , sounded great , one channel quit entirely opened , amplifier chip bad channel simply melted solder joints attaching pcb soldered back worked fine keep volume bit lower probably lousy heat sinking said nice alpine i'm sure orders mag higher quality p point look inside scrap , since occasionally find something repair maybe even thing found good luck !
cab col hp com \( chris best \) subject power supply organization service lines 17 nntp posting host hpctdkz col hp com i'm expert ups 's , said something made sound like n't realize something typical ups \( well , , anyway \) , switchover ac dc protected equipment always running batteries \( via inverter \) , usual condition also charge power fails , big deal computers never see \( batteries start , 's something like 60 car sized batteries cabinet , takes \) gonna run guts straight dc instead inverter , time \? 'd switchover screw things , sense failure fast keep dc charge power , 'll zero time need ideas ca n't guarantee 'll work , hope least helped
prasad vtaix cc vt edu \( prasad ramakrishna \) subject exploding tv ! organization virginia tech , blacksburg , va lines 19 distribution usa nntp posting host vtaix cc vt edu ge emerson 13 color tv 3 years one fine day , watching something \( doubt program cause \) , heard mild explosion screen went blank sound , thought , 'oh special effects soon sound stopped smoke started appear back tv brilliant , unplugged tv called customer service thrown around please hold , transfer u blah blah finally abandoned idea trying fix tv got new one \( wanted bigger one ! \) story , wanted know problem isolated incident common one \? \( recall reading russian tvs exploding , , us \) would picture tube explode even smoke \? still left tv set , might dig summer idea get parts things \? \( probably cost tv \) w 0 02 prasad vtvm1 cc vt edu
subject microwaves used collect xyz coordinates sldf3 sol ee usu edu \( weston r beal \) distribution world organization utah state univ ee nntp posting host sol ee usu edu lines 32 article ag7 bcstec ca boeing com , rgc3679 bcstec ca boeing com \( robert g carpenter \) writes seems reasonable microwave transmitter receiver setup could job example , say want map acre lot , 'd convenient place mw transmitters around lot 's periphery \( either 2 3 \) carry hand held recorder walk point lot , press button recorder 's location stored digital data 's chance working \? systems like already exist \? kind accuracy could expect \? would something like cost prototype \? better alternative microwaves \? course could develope system , already system called global positioning satellites gives three dimensional coordinates anywhere earth many use system differential receiver transmitter get coordinates within basic receivers resolution meters \( good day \) available many sources weston r beal sldf3 sol ee usu edu sldf3 cc usu edu electrical engineer utah state university 's wonderful thing crayons take places
carlos math lsa umich edu \( carlos montenegro \) subject low voltage lighting x10 questions organization university michigan , mathematics department , ann arbor lines 12 nntp posting host sirius math lsa umich edu 1 low voltage lights controlled x10 module putting transformer \? seems work , even dimmer works reliable damage module \? done reliably \? 2 put motion switch \( heath \) low voltage light , worked broken , much current \? get arround \? 3 increase intensity light using x10 pc computer interface without go 100 first programing , x10 program thanks c montenegro
kolstad cae wisc edu \( joel kolstad \) subject dumb question function generator organization u wisconsin madison college engineering lines 35 article murdoch acc virginia edu dgj2y kelvin seas virginia edu \( david glen jacobowitz \) writes new scope thought 'd save bucks buying one function generator built hmm ad combination radio hand generator flashlight siren saw \? \) function generator offset , amplitude 's high way could make little box could solve little problem box would function generator input , lower voltage give output impedance low , unchanging number would want lower voltage factor one hundred could build little buffer amp , 'd like box active sure , 've already got right idea ignoring 50 ohm internal resistance generator second , run , say , voltage divider made 990 ohms series 10 ohms new circuit equivalent one puts 1 100 original voltage , output impedence less 10 ohms may want monkey values little depending whether care exact dividing ratio availability parts sound \? joel kolstad p 1000 1 high voltage probes accurate still cheap something like 100 megs series 100k , n't load \( often high impedence \) source much , well keeping \( probably 10 meg impedance \) happy
wex cs ulowell edu \( paul wexelblat \) subject old 256k simms \? reply wex cs ulowell edu organization univ lowell cs dept lines 11 article 1993apr15 csx cciw ca , u009 csx cciw ca \( g stewart beal \) writes wondering people good uses old 256k simms bunch apple mac know lots people tried sell gotten interest use christmas tree decorations , cat n't eat wex
wex cs ulowell edu \( paul wexelblat \) subject question 120vac outlet wiring \( truth \) keywords outlet reply wex cs ulowell edu organization univ lowell cs dept lines 6 suggest misc consumer house better forum , several electricians , huge faq adresses issues raised wex
lancer oconnor wpi edu \( lewis \) subject di boxes work \? organization zikzak corporation lines 19 distribution world nntp posting host oconnor wpi edu i'm sound couple bands around need direct input boxes keyboards little boxes take line level keyboard transform low z run mixer sadly cost like 50 \( \) i'm going need like 5 10 ! looked inside one \( belonging another band \) looks like transformer anyone plans building \? perhaps 's electronic projects musicians book \( hell time tracking \) \? thanks lot ! ps post email read group lancer wpi wpi edu 0 mein ist ein , mein ist ein
msf arizona edu \( michael fulbright \) subject analog switches balanced distribution na organization university arizona unix users group lines 13 atlas cs upei ca \( kenny adams \) writes hi , instead using supply 4066 try using 7 7 volt supply commercial audio equipment uses approach ground referenced audio use 7 volt supply logic ground case would switch control voltages 7v turn switch 0v turn switch \? michael fulbright msf arizona edu
whit carson u washington edu \( john whitmore \) subject question 120vac outlet wiring keywords outlet article shelley distribution world organization university washington , seattle lines 34 nntp posting host carson u washington edu article intel com sedona intel com \( chris richmond \) writes article 1993apr14 mprgate mpr ca , vanderby mprgate mpr ca \( david vanderbyl \) writes article 1993apr14 172145 27458 ecsvax uncecs edu , crisp ecsvax uncecs edu \( russ crisp \) writes i'm considering modernizing old wiring home , need little advice outlet wiring several outlets old prong' type , without ground naturally , wire feeding outlets 12 2 , without ground wire noticed fusebox circuits 12 2 ground , circuits , ground wire tied bus neutral \( white \) wire contrary electrical code fixed well , house built last year , breaker box wired way connection ground wire ground breaker box also connection neutral wire ground breaker box place building connection occurs \( e outlet boxes \) neutral \( white \) wire plug , safe touch , ground \( green \) wire carries current unless kind electrical fault occurred 's safe touch protective ground , touch grounding conductor \( current grounding conductor , outlet box end ground potential breaker box end \) john whitmore
bill thd tv tek com \( william k \) subject cable tvi interference keywords catv cable television tvi article 1993apr15 organization tektronix tv products lines 15 article inqmind bison mb ca jim inqmind bison mb ca \( jim \) writes happens \( digital compression \) introduced next year instead receiving lines 2 3 channels 'll receiving , let 's see 3 10 30 channels eventually since digital transmission schemes include error correction , performance remains low carrier noise ratio , degrades quickly hence , digitally compressed tv supposed less susceptible interference amplitude modulated tv bill tektronix , inc p box 500 ms 58 639 beaverton , bill tv tv tek com , ! tektronix ! tv tv tek com ! bill phone \( 503 \) 627 prove crazy people \?
mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) subject buy parts 1 2 time \? nntp posting host aisun3 ai uga edu organization ai programs , university georgia , athens lines 15 pricing parts reminds something chemist said gram dye costs dollar comes liter jar also costs dollar want whole barrel , also costs dollar e , charge almost exclusively packaging delivering chemical \( particular case \) byproduct cost almost nothing intrinsically michael covington , associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu university georgia phone 706 542 0358 athens , georgia 30602 7415 u amateur radio n4tmi
wellison kuhub cc ukans edu subject electronic odometers article kuhub 1993apr15 organization university kansas academic computing services lines 10 panel go car \( 1990 lincoln \) digital dash replaced whole thing 1991 dash \( thank god warrenty ! \) anyway , odometer reading exact milage old panel must eeprom sort dated seems removing battery would erase , n't guess swapped chip \( non memory \) installed new dash , would n't let old dash \( wes
harry neuron6 jpl nasa gov \( harry \) subject power supply article jato 1993apr15 organization jpl pasadena ca lines 25 nntp posting host neuron6 jpl nasa gov article 25 elaine ee und ac za elaine ee und ac za \( dale \) writes i'm wanting build simple ups pc sustain computer long enough complete current task save , 5 10 minutes enough think , though n't really need keep monitor active \( try remember \) maybe avoid dc ac inverter use battery directly supply motherboard peripherals 's good idea ! need 20 amps dc minutes , good \( wetware \) memory \( using wp autocad \) thought idea days ago 've got fairly new car battery take along 4x4 go camping , sits around useless i'm home wish could get ups use , use heavy duty 5 volt regulator supply pc guess 'd need 5v 12v \( 12 \) \( 2 batteries \? \) alternative would leave 40 amp battery charger hooked battery run converter running time , power goes , la ! converter keeps running battery ! could take converter computer camping trips ! \) harry 818 354 harry neuron6 jpl mil jpl nasa gov fax 818 393 , concurrent processing devices group , jet propulsion laboratory , 302 231 , 4800 oak grove dr , pasadena ca 91109 usa
ali cns nyu edu \( alan \) subject microphone pre amp low noise phantom powered nntp posting host liu cns nyu edu reply ali cns nyu edu organization new york university lines 13 i'm looking build microphone preamp good low noise characteristics , large clean gain , phantom power \( 20 48 volts \( dc \) \) pzm microphone i'm leaning towards good , low cost \( \? \? \) instrumentation amplifier maintain balanced input microphone , good , internal compensation , use minimal parts anyone experience , suggestions , advice , etc 'd like pass , 'd greatly appreciate l n c l u purple moon giants ali cns nyu edu 158 e 7th st b5 \( 212 \) 998 nyc \( 212 \) 982
alung megatest com \( aaron lung \) subject old 256k simms \? organization megatest corporation lines 26 article 1993apr15 csx cciw ca u009 csx cciw ca \( g stewart beal \) writes article 120466 netnews upenn edu jhaines eniac seas upenn edu \( jason haines \) writes wondering people good uses old 256k simms bunch apple mac know lots people tried sell gotten interest , inovative use \( want buy simms 8 \) \) , would interested hearing one guys work takes 20 , uses glue make five four wide panels constructs box , bottom , use pencil holder , 've got \( sp \? \) spirit , get clear plastic box , mount simm inside , sell ! i'm sure plenty suckers would go ! aaron
vanderby mprgate mpr ca \( david vanderbyl \) subject question 120vac outlet wiring keywords outlet nntp posting host chip reply vanderby mprgate mpr ca \( david vanderbyl \) organization mpr teltech ltd lines 16 olsen vetmed uiuc edu \( olsen \) writes noticed fusebox circuits 12 2 ground , circuits , ground wire tied bus neutral \( white \) wire contrary electrical code fixed sorry , exactly according nec need sorry , blew one main breaker box thick wire ground leading earth , neutral ground hooked bus breaker box \( outlet box , etc \) ground neutral must connected together
vanderby mprgate mpr ca \( david vanderbyl \) subject mysterious tv problem source \? nntp posting host chip reply vanderby mprgate mpr ca \( david vanderbyl \) organization mpr teltech ltd lines 30 dp utexas edu writes initial symptoms picture sound crt glow flyback described discovered hooked scope strip putting audio video signals everything making simple 20 30 hz pulses horiz transistor collector \( case 3 \) 20 30 hz ca ring front end guys , going \? anyone seen \? happening 1 \) turn tv 2 \) horizontal output begins normal operation powers high voltage rest circuitry 3 \) problem sensed horizontal oscillator shuts 4 \) powers cycle repeats things check first check shorted high power component best bet vertical output transistor \( \) , one , voltage regulator common cause type failure much current drawn somewhere also look shutdown circuits \( tv may may \) , find one shutting horizontal oscillator n't hard find problem
alung megatest com \( aaron lung \) subject good suppliers chips \? organization megatest corporation lines 44 article usenet ins cwru edu cleveland freenet edu \( paul \) writes anyone know good supplier 's chips , one could almost chip need \? n't want hunt chips may need would greatly appreciated anyone knows good distributor thankyou paul , unfortunately , many retail outlets 'll stock every chip made stuff stock ones 'll sell , like standard dram 's , 80386 's , 68000 's , etc , etc e think 'one stop store closest get pick copy byte magazine circuit cellar , popular electronics , like flip distributors like electronics , hamilton , pioneer electronics , etc , etc , n't normally deal end users like couple everything deal people buy hundreds distributor represents sells variety different non competing manufacturers mean \? suppose abc electronics sells intel 80386 's 's pretty good bet wo n't selling amd 's 386 's , vice versa also obtain chip want manufacturer represent knows \? might lucky able buy one 'd suprised also bear mind 1 2 qty prices charge much greater mail order outlet charge advice \? 're gonna designing anything , try stick shelf stuff 're going get stuck use many esoteric parts sooner later good luck , aaron
adler netcom com \( bruce adler \) subject ibm pc xt switch settings organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 26 article bigbird hri com obrien bigbird hri com writes got ibm pc xt documents true ibm , wondering anyone definitions 2 8 position dip switches \? , sw7 number 5 25 drives 0 , 0 1 drive 0 , 1 2 drives 1 , 0 3 drives 1 , 1 4 drives , type display 0 , 0 reserved 0 , 1 color \( mono mode \) 1 , 0 80x25 color \( mono mode \) 1 , 1 mono 80x25 , amount memory system board 64k chips 256k chips 0 , 0 64k 256k 0 , 1 128k 512k 1 , 0 1 , 1 256k 640k sw2 co processor installed sw1 loop post
ccd harris com \( timothy \) subject need acs tutorial netlist examples originator sp1 keywords acs , spice , simulation organization harris controls lines 18 recently ftp 'd al 's circuit simulator \( acs \) i'm looking tutorial mentioned users manual \( found \) n't experience constructing netlist \( spice \) need little help examples come acs n't explanatory translation schematic netlist anyone tutorial reference could help constructing netlist schematic diagram \? \( also emailed al received response yet 's probably busy next release \) tim internet ccd harris com uunet uunet ! ccd harris com ! timothy
surfer world std com \( internet surfer \) subject new mailserver soon utopia service organization boston computer society lines 9 interested would like discuss popular secret life technical please email starting newsgroup jolt gnu ai mit edu impossible , improbable pro angmar uucp \( zaphod \) cleveland freenet edu amsat org \( ham grand \)
wizard teradyne com \( michael \) subject source carbide pc board drills \? organization teradyne , inc boston lines 18 article lin news2 cis umn edu mike diack mike staff tc umn edu writes article wang com , pvr wang com writes sells special carbide drills used drill pc boards \? looking sizes smaller 60 , 65 70 would good best deal ever saw eli electronics cambridge mass quite close mit , 70 drills 5 00 box 50 eli boston fone book actually , think 57 phone number 617 547 probably mit flea sunday mike michael l teradyne atg boston maven dnet teradyne com
cph dmu ac uk \( chris hand \) subject cheap lcd panels seeking info organization de montfort university , leicester , uk lines 37 attention hardware hackers bargain ! bought pixel lcd panel 25 uk pounds similar panel , i'm looking proper data anyone help locating data device \( start routine phone hitachi library \) , 'll pass source type \( hitachi \) resolution x \( 80x25 chars matrix \) bought electronics ltd 27 park rd , uk tel 44 703 23 63 63 fax 44 703 23 63 07 email compuserve , nb bought ! n't even know works ! price 25 uk pounds including vat \( 17 5 \) , n't payable 're outside ec thanks info ! chris chris hand , lecturer internet mail cph dmu ac uk dept computing science , voice 44 533 de montfort university , gateway , fax 44 533 fidonet 2 440 32 50 leicester , uk le1 linux free unix ibm pcs !
kludge grissom larc nasa gov \( scott dorsey \) subject r battery month club organization nasa langley research center reptile farm lines 9 nntp posting host grissom larc nasa gov article jade tufts edu jade tufts edu \( jason \) writes talked friend works radio shack , said deal red batteries much lead red batteries life cycle shorter , think epa worried batteries dumped pardon , would carbon zinc cells lead scott
tomb hplsla hp com \( tom bruhns \) subject analog systems need ground planes \? organization hp lake stevens , wa lines 25 nusunix1 nus sg \( kam yung \) writes understand need ground plane digital system however , would like know ground plane also necessary analog system \( note ground plane connected , except one point , signal ground \) keep getting conflicting answers ground plane analog system help reduce noise also \? system deals low frequency signals \( 100hz ! ! ! \) well , one reason getting conflicting answers depends want ground plane continuous conductor good electrostatic shield signals board need shielding rom things \? shielding wo n't much good magnetic fields , unless make continuous around circuit shielded , like faraday cage flip side coin working \( \) high , could end plane cause problems n't likely encounter 100hz , 20khz , real problem \( one bit \)
kludge grissom larc nasa gov \( scott dorsey \) subject old 256k simms \? organization nasa langley research center reptile farm lines 12 nntp posting host grissom larc nasa gov article ulowell ulowell edu wex cs ulowell edu writes article 1993apr15 csx cciw ca , u009 csx cciw ca \( g stewart beal \) writes wondering people good uses old 256k simms bunch apple mac know lots people tried sell gotten interest use christmas tree decorations , cat n't eat yes , n't look appropriate much prefer used 833 tubes tree scott
davidj rahul net \( david josephson \) subject microphone pre amp low noise phantom powered nntp posting host bolero organization a2i network lines 26 cmcl2 nyu edu ali cns nyu edu \( alan \) writes i'm looking build microphone preamp good low noise characteristics , large clean gain , phantom power \( 20 48 volts \( dc \) \) pzm microphone i'm leaning towards good , low cost \( \? \? \) instrumentation amplifier maintain balanced input microphone , good , internal compensation , use minimal parts anyone experience , suggestions , advice , etc 'd like pass , 'd greatly appreciate l n c l u purple moon giants ali cns nyu edu 158 e 7th st b5 \( 212 \) 998 nyc \( 212 \) 982 without anything really tricky , best 've seen burr brown databook shows good application chip phantom power mic pre josephson engineering , san jose california microphones tel 408 238 fax 408 238 6022 instrumentation email david josephson com ftp info rahul net pub davidj
ray ole cdac com \( ray berry \) subject 25 network organization cascade design automation lines 11 hou amoco com \( jack coats \) writes folks lbl \( little big lan \) 75 think get 50 already 25 network lbl works arcnet , parallel ports , serial ports combination 250 nodes lbl offers ethernet support also , although presently limited ne2000 style boards lbl owners get update 8 50 ray berry ray ole cdac com eskimo com compuserve com
betts netcom com \( jonathan betts \) subject find cheap lcd displays \? organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 32 sci e \( e \) netters setting build market small electronic device requires lcd display analog electronics working fine , ordered pic ice \( vice versa \) since pics cheap low power , devil time finding lcd displays 6 8 digit range priced low need looking somthing range 1 quantities 1000 10 , 000 mainstream distributors like almac cannot help without part number , look around something line find 15 8 digit lcd even digikey 's cheapest offering 5 quantity know lcd displays like must exist see whole calculators sale 4 99 , meaning retailer probably buys 3 50 probably gets 2 50 2 50 includes assembly labor , packaging , sales , transportation , import duties , case keyboard , pc board , processor chip , solar cell lcd lcd ca n't cost much anyone could put touch manufacturers distributors handle things would much obliged joe betts betts netcom com p tried tearing apart several cheap consumer devices find anyone else better luck strategy \?
morrow cns ucalgary ca \( bill morrow \) subject amplifier cd rom earphone plug \? nntp posting host cns ucalgary ca organization university calgary lines 16 sun cd rom drive would like play audio cd 's old 10 watt amplifier works fine connected junk walkman style fm radio amp ties common path earphone connection ground however , n't work sony walkman cassette player , cd drive , produces loud low frequency tone obviously sony n't ground earphone output common anyone specs cd drive 's output \? audio transformer help \? others using play cd 's sun drive one listen \? thanks help bill morrow clinical , university calgary e mail morrow cns ucalgary ca voice \( 403 \) 220 fax \( 403 \) 283 hospital drive nw calgary , alberta , canada t2n
chaos cs umn edu \( \) subject radar detector detectors \? nntp posting host chaos cs umn edu organization university minnesota lines 23 1993apr06 vdoe386 vak12ed edu ragee vdoe386 vak12ed edu \( randy agee \) writes , questions radar detector detectors actually detect \? would additional shielding grounding bypassing shield stray rf generated radar detector , rf actually emitted detector antenna \? brands quieter others \? ok , ham well , tune 10 7mhz numbers sound like herd \? thats right , guessed , common numbers every super het receiver local oscillator \( \) generates detector detector detecting \( local oscillator \) two local oscillator generate ways receiver want receiver something say 10 must generate local oscillator signal 10 10 7mhz local osc frequency 10 7mhz fed normal agc detector keyed agc voltage \( mileage may vary \) since agc negative feed back device , positive voltage sets think get picture
logic camp clarkson edu \( rich \) subject subliminal message flashing tv organization clarkson university lines 11 nntp posting host logic clarkson edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 hi research subliminal suggestion psychology paper , read one researcher flashed hidden messages tv screen 1 200ths second possible \? thought maximum rate tv even capable displaying images 1 30th second \( 1 second image composed odd even scan lines \) rich logic camp clarkson edu
llnl gov subject telcom wiring question need help organization lawrence livermore national laboratory , ncd lines 26 nntp posting host llnl gov 've got two lines coming apartment two different telephone numbers ordered second line installed , instead bringing another 4 wire bundle , telco connected yellow black wires one line red green yellow black today monitoring voltage lines voltmeter across red green read back 52 volts lifted receiver second line \( black yellow wires \) voltage dropped 31 volts first line \( red green wires \) repeated experiment second line \( monitoring black yellow lifting cradle red green line \) also dropped 31 volts \? thought separate lines next went 66 block disconnected blue white lines coming telco cable disconnected phones apartment went back 66 block resistance measurements lines read open 'll appreciate help considered normal \? guy llnl gov
math uwaterloo ca \( mark w \) subject beam robot olympic games next week toronto organization university waterloo lines 17 one week robot olympic games fire combat come competitors please note slight change registration desk forward building science centre rather main competing hall arrive , please go desk pre registered real mail find badges waiting see mark \( glitch ! \) f c f hardware design lab u waterloo ont , \( 519 \) 885 1211 ext opinions , hear ! \? mine ! mine ! mine ! mine ! mine ! ah ! !
klg mc duke edu \( kim greer \) subject electronic odometers \( used bmw question \? \? \? \) organization duke medical center radiology lines 27 nntp posting host mc duke edu article 1993apr15 slcs slb com dcd se houston geoquest slb com \( dan day \) writes 's scary 's way set arbitrary mileage figure odometer , ca n't trust odometer reading , even prove odometer one came car originally wondering anyone shed light electronic odometers remember total elapsed mileage \? kind memory stable reliable enough , non volatile enough independent enough \( outside battery power \) last say , 10 years , life vehicle \? i'm amazed anything like could expected work length time \( especially light gizmos work good work 2 months without breaking somehow \) side question legal ramifications selling used car replaced odometer starts 0 miles , say 100 200 300k actual miles looks like fraud would fairly easy price new odometer , say however many miles want tell buyer thanks insight kim greer duke university medical center klg orion mc duke edu div nuclear medicine pob voice 919 681 durham , nc 27710 fax 919 681
tod cco caltech edu \( tod edward kurt \) subject data pods \( \) hp logic analyzer \( \) \? ! \? organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 11 nntp posting host sandman caltech edu keywords logic analyzer hp anyone netland spare data pod two old hewlett packard logic analyzer \? , 'd like buy pod 's part number side note , anyone know good surplus dealer organization would carry logic pods \? thanks byte , tod tod cco caltech edu
mmm cup portal com \( mark robert thorson \) subject exploding tv ! organization portal system \( tm \) distribution usa lines 6 sounds like picture tube lost vacuum would cause ignite could actually turn tube vacuum pressure vessel , followed explosion neck assembly \( mostly likely cracked begin \) blows whole sequence events , circuits may continue functioning , accounts losing sound
fmg alpha smi med pitt edu \( filip gieszczykiewicz \) subject scope questions summary storage scope distribution na organization medical informatics , pittsburgh , pa usa lines 33 greetings 've seeing word storage mentioned around i'm curious , mean \? life depended , 'd say 's scope uses long persistance phosphor keep successive screen unit time store get live \? also , 've shopping decent , used , old scope since tek \( portable ! \) heathkit 1000 single trace need like 2 3 least 50mhz \( maybe 100 \) shopping etc 've run problem old scope terminology imagine mainframe plug things like storage , coax input \( hey , get probe fits \? fiddle mine week got anything resembling good trace come bnc connectors ! \) , \( huh \? \) , , oh , like 514 manuals , many changes made along way schematic scopes , even identical model numbers , different \( better \? \) response performance others pick better one \? rule higher sn better apply \? take care filip 'll buy vowel gieszczykiewicz best e mail fmgst pitt edu ideas mine 0 99 respond ! ! ! ! live ee major , , programming , sca , assorted dreams 200mb drive linux 100mb ms dos 100mb ms dos worried \)
nickel laurentian ca subject cd player going advise needed ! lines 18 organization laurentian university article 1993apr13 nessie mcc ac uk , sl nessie mcc ac uk \( stuart lea \) writes hello , 've got problem cd player \( sony cdp 35 \) refuses play discs minor inconvenience ! player n't recognise disc 's problem , one becoming frequent common problem older cd players , , done rectify \? obvious answer , begin start fault finding start , thet mach recognise disc first place \? experience cd drawer becomes bit loose , cd either skips ca n't read try seeing screws hold drawer assembly tightened properly , next guess would one motors hope helps dave , laurentian university , sudbury , ontario
world std com \( roger williams \) subject adcom cheap products \? organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 27 amiganet chi il us \( mike donahue \) writes know much adcom mobil audio products , know fact adcom make high end home audio 80 comes directly like high volume manufacturers , adcom pc boards assembled shore \( case , mostly far east \) final assembly testing done east brunswick products , always , designed entirely us staff audiophile gurus like walter jung adcom also tends prefer american european components japanese far east equivalents shore assembly one reason adcom able make products perform well people like audio research van \( better \) , much lower cost course , musical diet consists mostly rock , might prefer components kenwood pioneer roger williams great discoveries made world std com accident larger consulting engineer funding , longer takes , mass accident
alung megatest com \( aaron lung \) subject telephone hook hok ok circuit organization megatest corporation lines 59 article 1993apr15 bnr ca moffatt bnr ca \( john thomson \) writes thought mine since hook line aprox 48 , hook usually drops 1 led series zener say around 30v hook led hook led would work \? anyone tries tried , please let know aye , 's rub draw enough current light led , equipment phone company think 've gone hook hook state 're supposed draw current means use digital voltmeter use old phone company equipment detect might think 's something wrong cable look guys , 's problem \? want light goes 'phone hook , need run series line , mentioned previous post want light goes 'phone hook , need voltage threshold detector 're going series diode thing \( easiest \) , make sure led take current \( ca n't recall hand , 's something like \? \) careful folks also consider forced ring tip phone 's supposed ring ! even simple zener led setup , might end carbon real quick whatever scheme use , make sure 've got least rated components also remember , i'm mistaken , phone line equivalent circuit current draw 48v gets dropped across 's fine 're roughly 12v , bell considers hook dropping far probably big easiest implementation accomplish \? \? tip rectifier resistor diode v zener resistor v led ring suggestion go ahead blow holes , get idea choose high efficiency led n't need much current get light choose values components required aaron
alung megatest com \( aaron lung \) subject power supply organization megatest corporation lines 40 article hp col col hp com cab col hp com \( chris best \) writes i'm expert ups 's , said something made sound like n't realize something typical ups \( well , , anyway \) , switchover ac dc protected equipment always running batteries \( via inverter \) , usual condition also charge power fails , big deal computers never see \( batteries start , 's something like 60 car sized batteries cabinet , takes \) gonna run guts straight dc instead inverter , time \? 'd switchover screw things , sense failure fast keep dc charge power , 'll zero time need actually , 's bit complicated sounds , ups takes ac , dc charge batteries , takes battery dc ac , feeding equipment approach easiest cleanest way switchover mains battery power kicks since , mentioned , nothing know happened line another way ups scheme use mains lose power , kick battery backup 's inverter replace lost power problem switchover time 've got ac time flat unfortunately , everything built around assumption ac available , ups guys provide ac output usable ya sorta make work already similar story telephone system first invented back 1800 's 're still using damn system \( media \) back phone back , assure 'll work today 's phone system costs much overhaul everyone new system , make work
alung megatest com \( aaron lung \) subject exploding tv ! organization megatest corporation distribution usa lines 39 article vtserf cc vt edu prasad vtaix cc vt edu \( prasad ramakrishna \) writes ge emerson 13 color tv 3 years one fine day , watching something \( doubt program cause \) , heard mild explosion screen went blank sound , thought , 'oh special effects soon sound stopped smoke started appear back tv brilliant , unplugged tv called customer service thrown around please hold , transfer u blah blah finally abandoned idea trying fix tv got new one \( wanted bigger one ! \) story , wanted know problem isolated incident common one \? \( recall reading russian tvs exploding , , us \) would picture tube explode even smoke \? still left tv set , might dig summer idea get parts things \? \( probably cost tv \) heh , heh , heh , heh laugh damn tv , thing ! actually , 's essentially tv electronics different face plate name 1 fortunately , tv tubes n't explode 'd think tv want make possibility remote possible , 'll glass blows would result glass back tube due case , n't kick around ! \) 2 fixed tv getting hold schematics turned blown 2w resistor feeding flyback transformer guess original resistor bit small dissipate heat created , burning checked make sure flyback n't shorted anything first ! oh , luckily , resistor handy lying around right value needed ca n't see 50 cents ! well , needless say , tv still works today go get set schematics fun n't get shocked poking around flyback
organization queen 's university kingston qucdn queensu ca subject adc card computer distribution world lines 54 article lll winken llnl gov , say would like digitize output squid magnetometer \( range 10 v 10 v \) digital signal processing computer , say macintosh ii 486 pc would like good 16 bit adc good linearity high conversion speed , least 50 khz , preferably 200 khz concerns \( 2 \) must use adc external computer avoid digital noise feedback sensitive squid electronics \? might good idea resolution requested 0 order get 've paid , noise level better lower kind hard noisy box like expect inside pc pay pc card , test sampling low distortion sine wave \( think sine wave cd digital domain \? possibly low thd sources \) run digitized waveform fft transform take noise floor spectrum 's give good indication design \( 's test data system designed got idea maxim data sheet \) live 14 bit resolution , would recommend looking maxim high speed \( \) complete sampling dsp interface input range 5v uses serial interface \( easily optically isolated computer major noise source \) analog design guide got shows noise level claim max \( 85 \) thd looks pretty good 12 1000 pieces evaluation kit available might want give nice folks call 1 800 998 fax \( 408 \) 737 \( 408 \) 737 application assistance assumes build das write software \( hey get free sample calling 1 800 \) would appreciate discussion personal experience mac pc based adc system would recommend find resolution gotten system looking noise level , otherwise might throwing money charles cunningham cec imager llnl gov k c lee elec eng grad student connection maxim except general recommend companies give samples students others feel deserve nice
johnh macadam mpce mq edu au \( john haddy \) subject old 256k simms \? organization macquarie university lines 14 distribution world nntp posting host macadam mpce mq edu au article 120466 netnews upenn edu , jhaines eniac seas upenn edu \( jason haines \) writes wondering people good uses old 256k simms bunch apple mac know lots people tried sell gotten interest , inovative use \( want buy simms 8 \) \) , would interested hearing practical use 've seen key ring ornaments \) johnh
iastate edu \( steven knapp \) subject radar detector detectors \? organization iowa state university , ames , ia lines 16 article chaos cs umn edu chaos cs umn edu \( \) writes 1993apr06 vdoe386 vak12ed edu ragee vdoe386 vak12ed edu \( randy agee \) writes , questions brands quieter others \? yes radar detectors less detectable radar detector detectors \) look car driver \( last 6 months \) , big review better detectors , stealth factor steven knapp computer engineering student iastate edu president cyclone amateur radio club iowa state university ames , ia usa durham center operations staff
cgordon vpnet chi il us \( gordon hlavenka \) subject making copy video tape keywords video organization vpnet public access lines 19 devices buy make look radio popular electronics mags devices else fails , build one using design dec '87 issue radio electronics favorite ad device back latest catalog quoting memory big flashy type dual deck vcr copies tape even copy protected ! \( underneath ad small print device intended making illegal copies copyrighted material \) \) gordon hlavenka cgordon vpnet chi il us vote straight ticket procrastination party dec 3rd !
russotto eng umd edu \( matthew russotto \) subject electronic odometers \( used bmw question \? \? \? \) organization project glue , university maryland , college park lines 33 nntp posting host tea eng umd edu article 1993apr14 porthos cc bellcore com nosubdomain nodomain \( \) writes article 1993apr14 nimbus com , nimbus com \( jim \) writes two simple procedures odometer 1 mechanical driven odometer remove speedo cable transmission attach drill run max speed speedo turns continue desired mileage reached 2 electronically driven odometer remove sensor wire sensor attach calibration signal wire run speedo turns desired mileage dear faster kinda wonder ever tried version 2 \? \? since sensor wire bmw feeds also computer n't know signal voltage expected bad things could happen also since n't know pulse rate , may damage analog part speedo \( yes bmw uses combined instrument speed analog , trip total milage digital \) needle pegged stop thought 've got , connect sensor wire measure stuff way know expects matthew russotto russotto eng umd edu russotto wam umd edu news readers expect disclaimer say police searches seizures make use force \( responsible bodily harm resulting following advice \)
ritterbus001 wcsub ctstateu edu subject picking cable tv aerial lines 37 nntp posting host wcsub ctstateu edu organization yale university , department computer science , new , ct article inqmind bison mb ca , dino inqmind bison mb ca \( tony stewart \) writes unix1 tcd ie \( john senior \) writes recently , discovered possible receive cable tv aerial top tv nearer aerial moved cable \( connected \) runs house better signal , wondering improve signal \? possible improve signal significantly \? \( channels cable egress radiated free space impedance cables may certain channels standing waves 1 4 wave transfer efficiently also antenna \( loose \) also tuned efficient 1 2 wavelength best bet research use tuned antenna get gain need \( std tv roof antenna type \) parallel radiating cable pre amp n't help significantly experience cases dino inqmind bison mb ca inquiring mind bbs , winnipeg , manitoba 204 488 1607 wow , concept ! anybody want speculate non connection would fit theft cable services laws \? seems unless case specifically written legislation cable company would leg stand upon court anybody specific legal knowledge \? jim ritterbus001 ctstateu edu net \( temp , rf \) art , guide says , rather knack flying knack lies learning throw ground miss
doherty melpar esys com \( kevin doherty \) subject hard drive component costs organization e systems , melpar division lines 17 anyone information relative fraction final cost component average hard drive \? instance , i'm pretty sure heads platters expensive parts , assembly costs running close third cost electronics likely noise hard numbers \( percentage \) \? thanks kevin doherty e systems melpar division doherty melpar esys com principal engineer falls church , va \( 703 \) 560 kevin doherty e systems melpar division doherty melpar esys com principal engineer falls church , va \( 703 \) 560
victor inqmind bison mb ca \( victor laking \) subject radar detector detectors \? organization inquiring mind bbs 1 204 488 1607 lines 30 alee bnr ca \( louis \) writes article oasys dt navy mil write va , ct , wash dc think bc canada 've heard actually use radar detector detectors nope , british columbia detectors legal bc , 've even got one alberta ontario 're illegal , detection devices sometimes used 've heard police ontario prefer much direct method detection trigger radar gun , watch people slamming brakes , search car david lee sfu ca illegal manitoba well though n't know methods used detect always amazed way laws work illegal sell manitoba , within vehicle \( last heard , n't installed illegal \) victor inqmind bison mb ca inquiring mind bbs , winnipeg , manitoba 204 488 1607
mtu edu \( mark e \) subject question 120vac outlet wiring nntp posting host tech mtu edu organization michigan technological university lines 32 article 1993apr14 172145 27458 ecsvax uncecs edu , crisp ecsvax uncecs edu \( russ crisp \) wrote hello i'm considering modernizing old wiring home , need little advice outlet wiring several outlets old prong' type , without ground naturally , wire feeding outlets 12 2 , without ground wire noticed fusebox circuits 12 2 ground , circuits , ground wire tied bus neutral \( white \) wire 's question seems 'd electrical circuit hooked neutral da jumper neutral ground screw new 'three prong' grounding outlets 's wrong reasoning \? first , pass national electrical code inspection secondly , neutral wire current carrying ground wire n't , fault condition reason neutral ground tied together panel power pole grounded center tap secondary , grounded center tap neutral gives 120v neutral \( ground \) side transformer 240v across transformer effect neutral ground potential mark e email mtu edu michigan technological university school technology
swalker uts edu au \( s87271077 walker man 50 \) subject nuclear site 's cooling towers \? organization university technology , sydney lines 12 distribution world nntp posting host ccsd uts edu au summary cooling towers \? anyone know work \? keywords nuclear organisation university technology , sydney , australia really n't know post question figured board would appropriate wondering massive concrete cylinders ever present nuclear poer sites look like cylinders pinched middle anybody know actual purpose things \? hear 're called 'cooling towers' heck cool \? hope someone help
jeh cmkrnl com subject question 120vac outlet wiring organization kernel mode systems , san diego , ca lines 43 article 1993apr14 172145 27458 ecsvax uncecs edu , crisp ecsvax uncecs edu \( russ crisp \) writes i'm considering modernizing old wiring home , need little advice outlet wiring several outlets old prong' type , without ground naturally , wire feeding outlets 12 2 , without ground wire noticed fusebox circuits 12 2 ground , circuits , ground wire tied bus neutral \( white \) wire 's question seems 'd electrical circuit hooked jumper neutral ground screw new 'three prong' grounding outlets 's wrong reasoning \? ! ! ! ground \( green \) wire safety current supposed flow normal conditions means 's normally voltage drop either supposed safe touch ground wire even 're grounded way time neutral \( white \) wire , dave vanderbyl correctly said , return hot wire since current flows , 's voltage drop plug heavy load properly wired grounded outlet , commonly measure volt difference neutral ground supposed connected together breaker panel nowhere , repeat nowhere , else \( well , almost strange exceptions things like sub panels \) want three prong outlets without additional wiring use gfci outlet \( breaker , outlet cheaper \) fact , depending putting new outlet \( \) , gfci may required faq electrical wiring , posted regularly rec news answers goes great detail issues \( including gfcis \) probably read asking questions 'll mail copy , append copy , ask writers cross post future jamie hanrahan , kernel mode systems , san diego ca internet jeh cmkrnl com uucp uunet ! cmkrnl ! jeh cis 74140 , 2055
jeh cmkrnl com subject electrical wiring faq \( question 120vac outlet wiring reply wirefaq ferret ocunix ca keywords 120 240 ac outlets wiring power shock gfci expires 15 may 93 21 35 16 pdt distribution world organization kernel mode systems , san diego , ca lines since electrical wiring questions turn time time sci electronics \( answers n't always apparent , even skilled electronics \) , following faq posting copy 've asked writers cross post sci electronics future jeh cmkrnl com x news cmkrnl news answers newsgroups misc consumers house , rec , news answers , misc answers , rec answers subject electrical wiring faq message id wirefaq clewis ferret ocunix ca \( chris lewis \) date 4 apr 93 05 21 49 gmt reply wirefaq ferret ocunix ca \( wiring faq commentary reception \) followup poster expires 2 may 93 05 21 31 gmt organization elegant communications inc , ottawa , canada summary series questions answers house wiring supersedes wirefaq lines archive name electrical wiring last modified sun feb 21 16 56 10 est 1993 frequently asked questions electrical wiring steven bellovin \( smb ulysses att com \) chris lewis \( clewis ferret ocunix ca \) comments \( automatic reply article \) wirefaq ferret ocunix ca faq formatted digest news readers skip one question next pressing g answers many topics related houses obtained misc consumers house archive send empty piece mail house archive dg rtp dg com information changes previous issue marked left column watch particularly new questions list new changed answers note registered faq cross posted news answers appear faq list lists subject questions answered faq introduction disclaimers nec \? get copy \? cec \? get copy \? wiring \? extra pointers \? need way tools \? ul listing \? csa approval \? cheaper , easier read books wiring \? inspections \? get wiring inspected \? house n't meet rules regulations word voltages 110 115 117 120 125 220 240 electrical service look like \? circuit \? grounding versus grounded versus neutral fuse breaker \? differences \? breakers \? ca n't use fuses \? size wire use \? numbers come \? 14 2 mean \? wirenut connector used \? gfci \? gfcis used \? n't use gfci \? difference gfci outlet gfci breaker \? 's purpose ground prong outlet , \? one prong wider \? polarization kind outlets need kitchen \? must outlets switches bathrooms \? romex nm \? bx \? use \? use plastic metal boxes \? junction box positioning \? install replacement fixture \? mean lights brighten motor starts \? 3 phase power \? use \? get house \? better run motors 110 220 \? nonsense 110v 15a circuits \? convert two prong receptacles three prong \? sure gfcis ungrounded outlets \? test button work \? wire shop \? underground wiring aluminum wiring i'm buying house ! \? weird stuff \? old style wiring buy stuff \? subject introduction disclaimers although 've done fair bit wiring , electricians , cannot responsible 're uncertain correct safe , n't contact someone qualified licensed electrician , local electrical inspector electricity joke mistakes result shocks , fires , furthermore , discussion based u national electrical code \( nec \) canadian electrical code \( cec \) best abilities , confirmed every detail electrical code , n't quote sections simply keep thing readable think 're wrong , invite correct us , please quote references ! nec cec , , force law many adopt en others , however , check local building department \( provincial hydro inspection offices canada \) find applies area also , local electrical utility may also special requirements electrical service installation bear mind , , say applies primarily ordinary single family multi family dwellings , mobile homes , commercial establishments , etc , sometimes governed different rules also note , contrary popular belief u \( parts canada \) , canada wholly owned subsidiary u consequently , nec apply canada lots things , including voltages , line frequencies , laws physics number crucial differences regulations , 've noted , relevant passages remember cec nec minimal standards often smart go beyond minimal requirements subject nec \? get copy \? nec model electrical code devised published national fire protection association , insurance industry group 's revised every three years 1993 version released buy copy decent bookstore , calling directly 800 344 code exists several versions 's full text , fairly 's abridged edition , sections likely apply houses 's nec handbook , contains code , well full text 's recommended version unfortunately , 's handbook abridged edition full handbook expensive us 65 plus shipping handling subject cec \? get copy \? canadian standards association organization made various government agencies , power utilities , insurance companies , electrical manufacturers organizations csa publishes csa standard 1 updated every two three years province , amendments , standard publishes province specific code book since province publishes slightly modified standard , would somewhat confusing obtain csa standard faq , cec really means appropriate provincial standard particular , faq derived ontario hydro electrical safety code , 20th edition \( 1990 \) turn based csa 1 1990 \( 16th edition \) differences exist provinces , attempt made avoid specific ontario detail appropriate provincial code obtained electrical inspection offices provincial power authority ontario , 's ontario hydro ontario hydro book n't overly fat 's c 25 , includes mailed updates hear standards somewhat easier read equivalent nec publications n't bother asking quebec diy wiring banned throughout province subject wiring \? extra pointers \? places , homeowners allowed wiring , 're check local electrical inspector places wo n't permit wiring 's homes money without license permitted wiring commercial buildings multiple dwellings \( eg \) usually considered semi commercial commercial however , many jurisdictions permit work semi commercial wiring 're supervised licensed electrician find one willing wiring , important point neat well ! really want aim better job electrician , 's home , 's family might get killed make mistake electrician time pressures , skills knows tricks trade fast , safe job faq 've consciously given recommendations excess code , feel 's reasonable , impress inspector inspector know 're amateur earn trust best way spend time neat job possible n't cut corners exceed specifications otherwise , inspector may get extremely picky fault slightest transgressions n't try hide anything inspector use proper tools ie n't use bread knife strip wires , twist wires fingers inspector wo n't like , results wo n't safe takes longer 're likely stick hunk wire hand way n't handle house wire 's cold \( eg 16f \) thermoplastic house wire , particularly older types become brittle subject need way tools \? first , 's obvious hammer , drill , screwdrivers , straight phillips head 're lucky enough live canada \( find source csa approved devices \) need robertson \( square \) screwdrivers \( 1 2 \) instead phillips drilling holes , 3 4 1 bit 1 4 3 8 electric drill 're lot , working elderly lumber , recommend 1 2 drill \( right angle drills wonderful rented \) 3 4 1 screw point drill bits bits pull , 're much faster less , even 90 year old screw driver bits useful drills , expecially install electrical boxes using screws \( screws work well \) stripping wire , use real wire stripper , knife ordinary wire n't buy 3 k mart combo stripper , bottle opener types expect pay 15 20 good type pair sized stripping holes , wo n't nick grab wire easy strip wire one model small hole blade forming exact wire loops screw terminals types \( cut \) , generally n't necessary , pros usually n't use pair diagonal side cutter pliers useful clipping ends places n't use stripping wire need linesman pliers twisting wires wire nuts pair needle nose pliers fiddling inside boxes closing loops , 's better form wire loops loop former hole wire stripper accurate 're using non metallic cable , get cable stripper removing sheath , pros , nick end sheath , grab ground wire pair pliers , simply rip sheath back using ground wire zipper , cut sheath n't try strip sheath knife point , 's easy slash insulation conductors apparently stanley utility knives fitted \( hooked blades \) used strip sheath , still possibility 'll conductors substantial amount work armored cable , 's well worth invest rotary cable \( us 18 \) hack tricky use without cutting wire insulation three prong outlet testers quick check properly wired outlets 6 tell , lot expensive , probably worth people simple voltage sensor , detect potential insulated wire supplying devices , extremely helpful cost us 10 radio shack voltage detector check wires dead work neon bulb version cheap \( 2 3 \) work well get serious , audible alarm type good tracing circuits without helper \( though 've known lock drill , hit breakers scream stops \) running wires existing walls , need fish tape often , two tapes needed , though sometimes , bent length thin chain suffice fish tapes rented electrical tape lots \) seriously , good competent wiring job need little tape tape useful wrapping insulation repair work another use wrap around body outlets switches cover termination screws n't , contractors prefer \( prevent explosions knife live outlet cover plate \) subject ul listing \? ul stands underwriters laboratory used insurance industry organization , independent non profit tests electrical components equipment potential hazards something ul listed , means ul tested device , meets requirements safety ie fire shock hazard n't necessarily mean device actually 's supposed , probably wo n't kill ul power law u permitted buy install non ul listed devices however , insurance policies sometimes clauses limit liability case claim made response failure non ul listed device furthermore , many situations nec require wiring component used specific purpose ul listed purpose indirectly , means certain parts wiring must ul listed inspector approve occupancy permits issued subject csa approval \? every electrical device component must certified canadian standards association sold canada implicit wiring must done csa approved materials perform testing similar ul \( bit stringent \) , except csa approval required law , like ul , fire caused non csa approved equipment , insurance company may pay claim canada , branch organization ul , called \( ul canada \) power law , seems group csa insurance companies subject cheaper , easier read books wiring \? usa following three books suggested readers residential wiring jeff , craftsman books , ca 18 25 isbn 0 19 9 practical electrical wiring residential , farm industrial , based national electrical code ansi 70 herbert p richter w creighton mcgraw hill book co wiring simplified h p richter w c park publishing co try make sure book based latest nec revision currently 1990 canada p knight authors publishes book called electrical code simplified appears version published specific province , tied appropriate provincial code focuses residential wiring , canadian better get book cec unless lot wiring \( answer questions net \) updated time provincial codes book available diy hardware stores less c 10 subject inspections \? get wiring inspected \? jurisdictions require obtain permit inspections wiring done amongst mundane bureaucratic reasons \( like insurance companies liking pay claims \) , permit inspections provides assurance , family , neighbors subsequent owners home n't get killed lose homes one night due sloppy wiring job jurisdictions power order home , order tear wiring done without permit california , instance , particularly nasty fire starts home , un inspected wiring fault , insurance companies often refuse pay damage claims general , process goes like apply local inspections office building department permit sketch detailed drawing plan good time ask questions things 're sure 're major work , may impose special conditions , require loading calculations ask questions point tell inspections need 're installing main panel , need panel service connections inspected power utility provide connection sometimes done local power authority rather usual inspectors installing boxes wiring , insulation walls go , need rough inspection walls , wiring complete , need final inspection subject house n't meet rules regulations upgrade \? general , requirement upgrade older dwellings , though exceptions \( ie smoke detectors cases \) however , new work must done according latest electrical code also , work , may required upgrade certain existing portions system check local electrical inspector subject word voltages 110 115 117 120 125 220 240 one thing things might get bit confusing different numbers people voltage circuit one person might talk 110v , another another 120v , fact , exactly thing north america utility companies required supply split phase 240 volt \( 5 \) feed house works two 120v 5 legs additionally , since resistive voltage drops house wiring , 's unreasonable find 120v dropped 110v 240v dropped 220v time power reaches wall outlet especially end extension cord long circuit run number reasons , historical , simple personal , different people choose call slightly different numbers faq chosen consistent calling 110v 220v , except actually saying measured voltage confusing \? bit ignore one thing might make little understandable equipment show lower \( ie 110v instead 120v \) value implies device designed operate properly voltage drops low 240v voltage phases 3 phase circuit 120v neutral hot voltage phases 3 phase circuit 's hot neutral keeping 110v versus 120v , motors intended run three phase often labelled subject electrical service look like \? logically four wires involved supplying main panel power three come utility pole , fourth \( bare \) wire comes elsewhere bare wire connected one long metal bars pounded ground , wire buried foundation , sometimes water supply pipe \( metal , continuous main water pipe entering house watch action conductivity breaks \( often copper iron pipe \) \) grounding conductor make sure third prong outlets connected ground wire normally carries current one wires white \( black white yellow stripes , sometimes simply black \) neutral wire connected centre tap \( cec center tap nec \) distribution transformer supplying power connected grounding conductor one place \( often inside panel \) neutral ground connected anywhere else otherwise , weird dangerous things may happen furthermore , one grounding system home codes require one grounding electrode connected together , connected neutral common point still one grounding system adding additional grounding electrodes connected portions house wiring unsafe contrary code add , ground neutral usually brought separate conductors main panel , connected together \( ie still one neutral ground connection \) however , situations \( certain categories separate buildings \) actually provide second grounding electrode consult inspector two wires usually black , hot wires attached distribution transformer well two black wires 180 degrees phase means connect something hot wires , voltage 220 volts connect something white either two blacks get 110v panels seem three wires coming either neutral ground connected together different point \( eg meter pole \) one wire dual duty neutral ground , rare occasions , service one hot wire \( 110v service \) subject circuit \? inside panel , connections made incoming wires connections used supply power selected portions home three different combinations 1 \) one hot , one neutral , ground 110v circuit 2 \) two hots , neutral , ground 220v circuit 3 \) two hots , neutral , ground 220v circuit neutral , two 110v circuits common neutral \( 1 \) used circuits supplying receptacles lighting within house \( 3 \) usually used supplying power major appliances stoves , often need 220v 110v , bringing several circuits panel box distribution point \( 2 \) usually special 220v motor circuits , electric heaters , air conditioners note us , nec frequently permits circuit similar \( 2 \) used stoves namely , two hot wires , wire dual duty neutral ground , connected frame well providing neutral 110v purposes three prong plugs instead four \( stoves connected main panel connected sub panels , 4 prong plugs receptacles required \) humble opinion crazy , claims practice evaluated 1992 nec , found safe check local codes , inquire local practice restrictions permissible \( 1 \) usually wired three conductor wire black hot , white neutral , bare grounding \( 2 \) \( 3 \) one hot wire coloured red , black , bare wire grounding , \( 3 \) white wire neutral sometimes see \( 2 \) wired black , white ground wire since white hot case , nec cec requires white wire permanently marked ends indicate live wire usually done paint , nail polish sometimes electrical tape circuit attached main wires coming panel circuit breaker fuse , locales , circuits look like \( 1 \) , \( 2 \) \( 3 \) except two bare ground wires places require hot like \( one ground frame ground , attaches motor \) may may alternative gfci protection subject grounding versus grounded versus neutral according terminology cec nec , grounding conductor safety ground , e , green bare wire word neutral reserved white circuit one hot wire since white wire connected neutral grounding conductor inside panel , proper term grounded conductor however , potential confusion grounded conductor grounding conductor lead potentially lethal mistakes never use bare wire grounded conductor white wire grounding conductor , even though connected together panel fed neutral ground separately main panel usually trade , common usage , word neutral used grounded conductor faq uses neutral simply avoid potential confusion recommend use neutral thus white wire always \( except light switch applications \) neutral ground subject fuse breaker \? differences \? fuses circuit breakers designed interrupt power circuit current flow exceeds safe levels example , toaster shorts , fuse breaker trip , protecting wiring walls melting , fuses breakers primarily intended protect wiring ul csa approval supposedly indicates equipment wo n't cause fire fuses contain narrow strip metal designed melt \( safely \) current exceeds rated value , thereby interrupting power circuit fuses trip relatively fast sometimes problem motors large startup current surges motor circuits , use time delay fuse \( one brand \) avoid tripping momentary looks like spring loaded fuse fuse trip , must replaced breakers fairly complicated mechanical devices usually consist one spring loaded contact position another contact current flow device exceeds rated value , strip heats bends bending trips latch , spring pulls contacts apart circuit breakers behave similarly , tend take longer trip moderate ordinary fuses high , trip quickly breakers reset finite number times time trip , thrown circuit use , takes place , damages contacts thus , breakers used place switches unless specially listed purpose neither fuses breakers limit current per se dead short circuit cause hundreds sometimes even thousands flow short period time , often cause severe damage subject breakers \? ca n't use fuses \? statistics show fuse panels significantly higher risk causing fire breaker panels usually due fuse loosely screwed , contacts heating time , wrong size fuse installed , proverbial replace fuse penny trick since breakers permanently installed , better connection mechanisms , risk fire considerably less fuses prone explode extremely high overload fuse explodes , metallic vapor cloud becomes conducting path result \? complete meltdown electrical panel , melted service wiring , fires electrical distribution transformer house burn breakers n't many jurisdictions , particularly canada , longer permit fuse panels new installations nec permit new fuse panels rare circumstances \( requiring special inserts key specific size fuses \) devices , notably certain large air conditioners , require fuse protection addition breaker panel fuse protect motor windings overload check labeling unit usually large permanently installed motors installation instructions tell need one subject size wire use \? 20 amp circuit , use 12 gauge wire 15 amp circuit , use 14 gauge wire \( locales \) long run , though , use next larger size wire , avoid voltage drops 12 gauge slightly expensive 14 gauge , though 's stiffer harder work 's quick table normal situations go size 100 foot runs , cable conduit , wires place ca n't dissipate heat easily gauge amps 14 15 12 20 10 30 8 40 6 65 n't list bigger sizes starts getting dependent application precise wire type subject numbers come \? two considerations , voltage drop heat buildup smaller wire , higher resistance resistance higher , wire heats , voltage drop wiring former need higher temperature insulation bigger wires use conduit latter use larger wire long runs neither effect significant short distances specific exceptions , use smaller wire allowed obvious one line cord lamps n't try unless 're certain use fits one exceptions never go wrong using larger wire subject 14 2 mean \? used describe size quantity conductors cable first number specifies gauge second number current carrying conductors wire remember 's usually extra ground wire 14 2 means 14 gauge , two insulated current carrying wires , plus bare ground 2 wire usually black , white bare ground wire sometimes white red instead 220v circuits without neutral latter case , sheath usually red 3 wire usually black , red , white bare ground wire usually carrying 220v neutral subject wirenut connector \? used \? wire nut cone shaped threaded plastic 's used connect wires together connector trade names 'll usually use lot diy wiring essence , strip end wires inch , twist together , twist wirenut though advertise n't need twist wire , anyways 's mechanically electrically secure many different sizes wire nut check wire nut 're using correct size quantity sizes wire 're connecting together n't wires together pair pliers fingers use pair blunt nose \( linesman \) pliers , carefully twist wires tightly neatly sometimes 's good idea trim resulting end make sure goes wirenut properly people wrap open end wirenut electrical tape probably good idea inspector may tear inspection 's usually done bit bare wire exposed outside wire nut instead , connection subject gfci \? gfci fault circuit measures current current flowing hot wire neutral wire differ , presumption current leaking ground via path may short circuit chassis appliance , ground lead , person situations hazardous , gfci trips , breaking circuit gfcis protect kinds electric shocks , example , simultaneously touched hot neutral leads circuit , part grounded , gfci would n't help current passed hot lead would return via neutral lead , keeping gfci happy two pairs connections gfci outlet symmetric one labeled load , line incoming power feed must connected line side , outlet protected load side used protect devices downstream thus , whole string outlets covered single gfci outlet subject gfcis used \? nec mandates gfcis 110v , 15a single phase outlets , bathrooms , within 6' sink , garages , unfinished crawl spaces , outdoors , near pool , anywhere else 're likely encounter water exceptions inaccessible outlets , dedicated appliances fixed , typically , pumps laundry appliances cec mandate many gfcis particular , requirement protect kitchen outlets , garage basement outlets basement outlets must protected dirt floor , garage outlets 're near door outside bathrooms exterior outlets must gfcis even required gfci protection , may want consider installing anyway unless need gfci breaker \( see \) , cost low u , gfci outlets cost little us 8 \( costs bit higher canada c 12 \) evaluate risk factors finished basement ever get wet \? small children \? use garage outlets power outdoor tools \? water melted snow ever puddle inside garage \? subject n't use gfci \? gfcis generally used circuits \( \) n't pose safety risk , \( b \) used power equipment must run unattended long periods time , , pumps good examples rationale gfcis sometimes prone nuisance trips people claim inductive delay motor windings cause momentary current imbalance , tripping gfci note , though , gfci trips real 're getting lot trips apparent reason , 'd well advised check wiring deciding gfci broken useless subject difference gfci outlet gfci breaker \? situations , use either gfci outlet first device circuit , install breaker built gfci former generally preferred , since gfci breakers quite expensive example , ordinary ge breaker costs us 5 gfci model costs us 35 one major exception need protect wire branch \( two circuits sharing common neutral wire \) , canadian style kitchen circuit , 'll need multi pole gfci breaker unfortunately , expensive cost range hundreds dollars , depending brand panel box must protect circuit \( say , pool heater \) , choice one caveat gfci outlets bulky may want use box installing second thought , use large \( actually deep \) boxes everywhere 'll thank incidentally , 're installing gfci ensure one specific outlet protected \( bathroom \) , n't really go trouble find first outlet circuit , could simply find first outlet bathroom , gfci anything protecting whole circuit preferred install gfci , 's good idea use little ground fault protected stickers come mark outlets downstream gfci figure outlets downstream , simply tripping gfci test button see outlets dead subject 's purpose ground prong outlet , \? apart use electronics , wo n't comment , certain fluorescent lights \( wo n't turn without good ground connection \) , 're intended guard insulation failures within device generally , case appliance connected ground lead 's insulation failure shorts hot lead case , ground lead conducts electricity away safely \( possibly trips circuit breaker process \) case grounded short occurs , case live touch 're grounded , 'll get course , circuit gfci protected , tiny zap use gfcis replace ungrounded outlets \( nec cec \) appliances never grounded particular , applies anything else exposed conductors consider touch heating electrode toaster , 're grounded , nothing happen 're slightly grounded , 'll get small shock resistance high case grounded , holding , 'd perfect path ground subject one prong wider \? polarization nowadays , many two prong devices one prong wider device could rely \( guaranteed ! \) one specific wire neutral , hot particularly advantageous light fixtures , shell neutral \( safety \) , devices want approximate ground reference \( ie radios \) 2 prong extension cords wide requires wire outlets plugs right way around want wide prong neutral , narrow one hot outlets darker metal hot screw , lighter coloured screw neutral , usually figure prong terminating screw connects subject kind outlets need kitchen \? nec requires least two 20 amp appliance cec requires split duplex receptacles outlets must installed point 24 \( nec \) \( 900 mm cec \) outlet every counter wider 12 \( nec \) 300 mm \( cec \) must least one outlet circuit outlets may feed outlets except kitchen , , dining room furthermore , circuits addition required , stoves , microwaves , lighting , etc non dedicated outlets within 6' sink must protected gfci \( nec \) split duplex receptacles fed 220v circuit tab broken hot side outlet , one hot goes upper outlet , hot goes lower outlet neutral connects outlets one screw carrying another outlet , neutral must , removing outlet , neutral connection fall n't cause neutral disconnect downstream outlets subject must outlets switches bathrooms \? must least one outlet bathroom , adjacent sink , addition outlet may incorporated light fixture outlets must gfci protected subject romex nm \? bx \? use \? romex brand name type plastic insulated wire sometimes called non metallic sheath formal name nm suitable use dry , protected areas \( ie inside stud walls , sides joists etc \) , subject mechanical damage excessive heat newer homes wired almost exclusively nm wire several different categories nm cable bx cable technically known armored cable ac flexible aluminum steel sheath conductors fairly resistant damage teck cable ac additional external thermoplastic sheath protection cable concealed locations nm ac cable run studs , joists similar wooden members , outer surface cable must kept least 1 25 \( cec nec \) edges wooden members , cable protected mechanical injury latter protection take form metal plates \( spare outlet box ends \) conduit note inspector permitted practise canada suggests armored cable , flexible conduit used mechanical protection , technically illegal additional protection recommendations \( rules canadian codes reasonable answers vague references exposed mechanical damage nec cec \) nm cable protected mechanical damage passes floors surface walls exposed locations 5 feet floor ie use ac instead , flexible conduit , wooden guards etc cable suspended , , connections water heaters , wire protected canadian practise usually install junction outlet box wall , use short length ac cable nm cable flexible conduit jump appliance nm piece lumber also sometimes used nm cable run close proximity heating pipe , heat transfer minimized means 25mm 1 air space , suitable insulation material \( wad fiberglass \) nm cable shall supported within 1' every box fitting , intervals 1 5m 5' holes joists studs considered supports slack cable provided adjacent box fishing cable technically violation , permitted proper support impractical 2 conductor nm cable never edge knight also insists one cable per , referring workmanship clause , seems honoured breach cable never buried plaster , cement similar finish cable protected runs behind cable may run upper edge ceiling joists lower edges headroom 1m \( 39 \) whenever bx cable terminated box clamp , small plastic bushings must inserted end cable prevent clamps forcing sharp ends armor insulation bx sometimes good idea work shop unless covered solid wall places damage likely \( like back wall garage \) , may required use conduit , ul \( csa \) approved metal pipe use various types join pipe provide entrance exit wire service frequently use plastic conduit damp places \( eg buried wiring outdoor lighting \) need special wire \( eg cec , nec uf \) looks like heavy duty usually need short lengths conduit wire enters exits ground see underground wiring section thermoplastic sheath wire \( nm , etc \) exposed direct sunlight unless explicitly approved purpose many electrical codes permit routing wire , including cold air return constructed metal spaces reason 's fire , spread toxic gasses burning insulation rapidly building teflon insulated wire permitted many areas canada appears use similar wire designations us , except canadian wire designations usually include temperature rating celsius eg versus ac us , nm b 90 degrees note local codes vary one items changes often eg chicago codes require conduit everywhere different requirements mobile homes check local codes , especially 're anything 's slightest ordinary wire selection table \( incomplete real tables enormous , uncommon wire types applications omitted \) condition type cec nec exposed concealed dry plastic nm armor ac teck90 exposed concealed damp plastic armor teck90 exposed concealed wet plastic armor teck90 exposed weather plastic tw etc armor teck90 direct earth burial plastic uf service entrance armor teck90 service entrance subject use plastic metal boxes \? nec permits use plastic boxes non metallic cable reasoning simple armored cable , box provides ground conductor continuity u plastic boxes n't use metal cable clamps cec slightly different cec never permits cable armor grounding conductor however , must still provide ground continuity metallic sheath cec also requires grounding metal cable clamps plastic boxes advantage plastic boxes comparatively minor even non metallic cable avoid making one ground connection sometimes cost little less hand , plastic boxes vulnerable impacts exposed shop wiring , metal boxes probably better subject junction box positioning \? junction box box used connecting wires together junction boxes must located way 're accessible later ie buried plaster excessive use junction boxes often sign sloppy installation , inspectors may get nasty subject install replacement light fixture \? general , one replace fixtures freely , subject caveats first , course , one check rating circuit heart set installing half dozen 500 watt , may need run new wire back panel box subtle constraints well example , older house wiring n't high temperature insulation excess heat generated ceiling mounted lamp cause insulation deteriorate crack , obvious bad results newer fixtures specifically marked high temperature wire \( may find , fact , ceiling wiring already problem , case replacing devices real adventure \) concerns include providing suitable ground fluorescent fixtures , making sure ceiling box mounting strong enough support weight heavy ceiling fan may need install new box specifically listed purpose across ceiling joists makes good support metal brackets also available ceilings thru junction box hole mounted joists special rules light fixtures pot lamps heat lamps installed insulated ceilings , present substantial fire hazard cec provides installation pot lamps insulated ceilings , provided fixture boxed coffin \( usually made making pair joists 12 high , covering plywood \) n't insulation \( yes , 's 8 feet long \) nec rules somewhat less stringent require least 3 clearance fixture sort thermal insulation rules also say one free air movement , means cec style might worthwhile presumably , 's local inspector cec n't actually mandate coffin per se , seems inspector requirement make absolutely certain fixture ca n't get accidentally buried insulation ie insulation blown later fixtures contain integral thermal fairly large cases buried directly insulation usually limited 75 watt bulbs , unfortunately , somewhat expensive older types use , ensure explicit ul csa approval uses follow installation instructions carefully prescribed location sensor vary yet appear heat lamp fixture approved use insulation coffin appears legal approach subject mean lights brighten motor starts \? usually means neutral wire panel loose depending load balance , one hot wire may end 110v , less 110v , respect ground hazardous situation destroy electronic equipment , possibly start fires , situations \( ie us jurisdictions require stove frame connected neutral \) happens , contact electrical authority immediately come check problem note brief \( 1 second \) sometimes normal lighting motors 220v neutral circuit loose main panel neutral usually show increased brightness far longer one second case doubt , get help subject 3 phase power \? use \? get house \? three phase power three hot wires , 120 degrees phase usually used large motors efficient , provides bit starting torque , motors simpler hence cheaper 're likely encounter 3 phase circuit shows 110 volts hot ground , 208 volts two hots latter shows difference normal 220v 110v common neutral circuit , 240 volts two hots 3 phase circuits different voltages bringing 3 phase feed house usually ridiculously expensive , impossible equipment want run standard motor mount , much cheaper buy new 110v 220v motor cases possible run 3 phase equipment ordinary power capacitor start unit , use larger motor \( auto \) generator tricky , good solution motor non standard size , expensive big replace press book ``the small article must note lose possible electrical efficiency using converter laws thermodynamics guarantee subject better run motors 110 220 \? theoretically , n't make difference however , difference amount power lost supply wiring things equal , 220v motor lose 4 times less power house wiring 110v motor also means startup surge loss less , motor get speed quicker circumstances , smaller power loss lead longer motor life usually irrelevant unless supply wires 50 feet long subject nonsense 110v 15a circuits \? universal physical law 1 hp equal 746 watts given heating loss , power factor , usually best consider 1 hp going need 1000 1200 watts 110v 15a circuit deliver 1850 watts motor , cannot possibly approximately 2 hp given rational efficiency factors , 1 like equipment manufacturers \( sears particular , router manufacturers general \) advertise hp rating far excess possible giving stall horsepower similar means power measured motor stop turning load n't mention kept condition seconds hopefully breaker trip , otherwise motor melt 's drawing far current continuously comparing motors , compare continuous horsepower motor nameplate ca n't find figure , check rating , always present subject convert two prong receptacles three prong \? older homes frequently two prong receptacles instead modern three receptacles safety ground , cabling usually ground wire neither nec cec permits installing new 2 prong receptacles anymore several different approaches solving 1 \) wiring done conduit bx , conduit continuous back panel , connect third prong new receptacle receptacle box nec mainly cec practise 2 \) copper cold water pipe going nearby , 's continuous main house ground point , run conductor third prong 3 \) run ground conductor back main panel 4 \) easiest install gfci receptacle ground lug connected anything , gfci protection serve instead gfci also protect downstream \( possibly also two prong outlets \) protect downstream outlets , grounds must connected together since would n't connected real ground , wiring fault could cases 3 prong devices connected outlets sure , though , n't indirect ground plug connections , via sheath bx cable cec permits replace two prong receptacle three prong fill u ground non conducting like compound permitted nec subject sure gfcis ungrounded outlets \? test button work \? 're sure nec cec say remember , though , local codes may vary test button 's resistor connecting load side hot wire line side neutral wire press test button current resistor shows imbalance , trips gfci simple , passive , reliable test , n't require real ground work gfci trip press test button , probably defective test button n't work , something 's broken , potentially dangerous problem corrected immediately instructions come gfcis specify ground wire must connected know say causes may mundane old instruction sheet , ul csa listing perhaps device never tested without ground wire connected hand , ul csa approval granted device behaves properly listed applications , including ungrounded outlet replacement \( one us called gfcis labeled installation grounded circuits technician surprised see agreed nec require , promised investigate \) subject wire shop \? kind wiring , need enough power devices simultaneously code specifies stay 80 nominal capacity circuit typical home shop use , means one circuit major power tools , possibly one dust collector shop vac use least 12 gauge wire many power tools big motors , big start surge , use 20 amp breakers \( nec \) , though cec requires standard receptacles means 'd equipment lights either circuit shared circuits rest house least two separate circuits idea want avoid situation blade still spinning several thousand rpm , 're groping dark switch install lots outlets 's easier install beginning , n't cut existing cable 's useful least two circuits accessible point , run shop vac compressor time tool really want use metal boxes plates , maybe even metal cable may objects flying around high speeds something goes bit wrong note jurisdictions horizontal wiring rule workshops unfinished areas used working means wiring must run along structural members ie studs possible shop circuits include heater circuits , 220v circuits large tools , air compressor circuits n't overload circuits , n't use extension cords help , unless 're rated high currents \( extension cord safe straight length wire gauge also , insulation wo n't withstand much heat , heat dissipation critical issue \) shop located remove main panel , probably install , derive shop wiring young children , may want equip panel cut switch , possibly lock want install individual switches particular circuits , make sure get ones rated high enough example , ordinary light switches safely able handle start surge generated table saw buy switches instead finally , note home shops garages unfinished hence nec requirements gfcis apply even 'd never use one shop outlets run lawn mower , next owner house might different idea note fine magazine often carries articles shop wiring april 1992 one place start subject underground wiring need prepare trench specifications , use special wire , protect wire conduit special plastic tubing possibly lumber \( n't use lumber , thermoplastic insulation acts catalyst corrosion lead \) transition house underground wire generally via conduit outdoor boxes must specifically listed purpose , contain appropriate gaskets , , etc location box subject water , serious style water proof box needed course , n't forget gfcis required depths details vary jurisdiction jurisdiction , suggest consult inspector specific situation hint buy roll bright yellow tape says buried power line bury inches wire placed subject aluminum wiring 1970 's , aluminum \( instead copper \) wiring became quite popular extensively used since time , aluminum wiring implicated number house fires , jurisdictions longer permit new installations recommend , even 're allowed , use new wiring n't panic house aluminum wiring aluminum wiring , properly installed , safe copper aluminum wiring , however , improper installation cover bit theory behind potential problems , make wiring safe main problem aluminum wiring phenomenon known cold aluminum wiring warms , expands cools , contracts unlike copper , aluminum goes number warm cool cycles loses bit time make problem worse , aluminum , contact certain types metal , resistance connection goes causes heat corrode still eventually wire may start getting hot , melt insulation fixture 's attached , possibly even cause fire since people usually encounter aluminum wiring move house built 70 's , cover basic points safe aluminum wiring suggest , 're considering purchasing home aluminum wiring , discovered later , hire licensed electrician inspector check wiring following things 1 \) fixtures \( eg outlets switches \) directly attached aluminum wiring rated device stamped al cu co latter supersedes former , safe fixtures somewhat expensive ordinary ones 2 \) wires properly connected \( least 3 4 way around screw clockwise direction \) connections tight repeated tightening screws make problem worse , inspection would pay snug connection note aluminum wiring still often used main service entrance cable inspected 3 \) push terminals extreme hazard aluminum wire connections using push terminals proper screw connections immediately 4 \) signs darkened connections , melted insulation , baked fixtures damage repaired 5 \) connections aluminum copper wire need handled specially current canadian codes require wire nut used must specially marked connecting aluminum copper nec requires wire connected together using special crimp devices , anti grease tools materials latter quite expensive practical unless rent tool 6 \) non rated receptacle connected aluminum wiring means short copper see \( 5 \) 7 \) shows reasonable workmanship neat wiring , properly stripped \( \) wire etc , considering purchasing home , inspection wiring shows problems one two , believe consider wiring safe signs problems many places , suggest look elsewhere wrong receptacles used , replace proper type , use professionally done range 3 10 per receptacle switch subject i'm buying house ! \? congratulations 's generally good idea hire inspector look house hidden wiring , plumbing structural well inspection wiring shows problems one two minor ones , believe consider wiring safe \( minor problems fixed \) signs problems many places , suggest look elsewhere 's hints look obvious non code wiring include zip cord wiring , either concealed nailed walls hot wiring identified \( neutral \) conductor without proper ungrounded grounding outlets \( except downstream gfci \) hanging mid air \( proper knob tube \) switched romex swinging like certain wiring actually code \( one time \) sometimes reveal diy wiring may hidden violations switches seem control nothing \( abandoned , perhaps properly terminated wiring \) wall switch shuts group lights separately controlled wall switches \( except 's really convenient \) switches outlets bizarre locations great numbers junction boxes without outlets lamps junction boxes great numbers wires going wiring passes closet instead wall ceiling grounding wires subject weird stuff \? old style wiring years since edison invented electricity , several different wiring styles come gone buy older home may encounter stuff section describes old methods , oldest wiring system 're likely encounter called knob tube \( k \) made individual conductors cloth insulation wires run along side structural members \( eg joists studs \) using ceramic stand offs \( knobs \) wire run structural members using ceramic tubes connections made twisting wire together , soldering , wrapping tape since hot neutral run separately , wiring tends rather confusing neutral often runs centre room , taps fixture hot wire tended run one fixture next cases k n't colour coded , neutral often colour hot wires 'll see k homes built late 40 's comments k people installing k pretty paranoid electricity , workmanship tends pretty good wire , insulation tend stand well k 've seen , example , quite good condition grounding grounding usually difficult install boxes small receptacle replacement \( particularly gfci \) difficult bushing boxes either , wiring changes need special attention box entry sometimes neutral n't balanced well separately hot circuits , sometimes possible overload neutral without exceeding fusing circuit building code permit insulation walls contain k connection existing k new circuits tricky consult inspector modern wiring practise requires considerably outlets installed k systems since k tends pretty decent condition generally n't necessary replace simply 's k watch interfered cautious circuit loading many cases 's perfectly reasonable leave existing k alone , add new fixtures new circuits using modern techniques k , invented multi conductor cable first type see roughly cloth insulation looks much like romex cable last decade two stuff used 40 's 50 's , grounding conductor installed much like modern wiring major type insulation 've seen whole systems insulation would fall touch bx cable vintage similar problems stuff fragile , becomes rather hazardous wires become bare wiring left untouched much possible whenever opportunity arises , replace simple receptacle switch replacement turn several hour long frustrating fight electrical tape heat shrink tubing wiring technique , modern romex invented 's almost asphalt impregnated cloth often bit sticky stuff stands reasonably well n't present hazard reasonably easy work need replaced considered safe modern stuff thermoplastic insulation wire n't abuse much subject buy stuff \? try find proper electrical supply outlet near prices often considerably better chain hardware stores diy centres , better quality materials , wider variety including odd stuff , people behind counter know 're talking cultivate friendly knowledgeable sales people 'll give much valuable information chris lewis clewis ferret ocunix ca phone canada 613 832 psroff 3 0 info psroff request ferret ocunix ca ferret list ferret request ferret ocunix ca
france sun com \( steve sunconnect \) subject nuclear site 's cooling towers \? organization sunconnect lines 26 distribution world nntp posting host hardy france sun com keywords nuclear article 1qlg9o d7q sequoia ccsd uts edu au , swalker uts edu au \( s87271077 walker man 50 \) writes really n't know post question figured board would appropriate wondering massive concrete cylinders ever present nuclear poer sites look like cylinders pinched middle anybody know actual purpose things \? hear 're called 'cooling towers' heck cool \? water nuclear stations n't generate electricity directly reactor , use reactor generate heat heat used heat water conventional oil coal station , resultant steam drives turbines cooling towers used cool steam water continue cycle steve steve sun microsystems , france email france sun com bix
markz ssc com \( mark zenier \) subject trace size 15 amp supply organization ssc , inc , seattle , wa x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 12 r g keen \( rg futserv austin ibm com \) wrote quick dirty way get higher current carrying capacity pc board traces one kind boards strip 14 romex house wiring cable bare copper , form bare copper follow trace , solder 's quick dirty , get bus bars stamped leads insert pc board mark zenier markz ssc wa com markz ssc com
craig toontown columbiasc ncr com \( craig williamson \) subject looking good spice book article toontown 627 reply craig toontown columbiasc ncr com \( craig williamson \) organization ncr e columbia , sc lines 17 article convex com convex com \( robert \) writes might try computer aided circuit analysis using spice walter , bookstores , paperback , 33 , lots examples dr teacher another book one n't find helpfull learning spice would make good reference book found lacking learning spice others \? craig took bull horns craig williamson stepped something good craig williamson columbiasc ncr com craig toontown columbiasc ncr com \( home \) perfect strangers
oulu fi \( heikki \) subject di boxes work \? reply lancer oconnor wpi edu 's message 15 apr 93 15 02 28 lines 38 organization university oulu , dept ee , finland article lancer oconnor wpi edu lancer oconnor wpi edu \( lewis \) writes i'm sound couple bands around need direct input boxes keyboards little boxes take line level keyboard transform low z run mixer sadly cost like 50 \( \) i'm going need like 5 10 ! looked inside one \( belonging another band \) looks like transformer anyone plans building \? perhaps 's electronic projects musicians book \( hell time tracking \) \? easy way solve problem use two op amps form balanced low z output , solution provide isolation keyboard \( whatever plugged \) mixer tight demanded hum , snap , crackle pop sounds \( formed ground loops \) tolerated , op amp solution looking ! \( cheap somewhat 10 di box \) sure , craig introduce one di box project guitar player mag years ago \( \) thanks lot ! hope helps email , details wanted lancer wpi wpi edu 0 mein ist ein , mein ist ein heikki oulu fi university oulu department electrical engineering student finland home heart lies , heart lies home \? fish
cmh eng cam ac uk \( c hicks \) subject di boxes work \? organization cam eng lines 36 nntp posting host eng cam ac uk lancer oconnor wpi edu \( lewis \) writes i'm sound couple bands around need direct input boxes keyboards little boxes take line level keyboard transform low z run mixer sadly cost like 50 \( \) i'm going indeed one function , sophisticated ones level control ground lift \( separating keyboard mixer earths \) need like 5 10 ! looked inside one \( belonging another band \) looks like transformer anyone simple ones transformer decent quality audio trans former cost 50 wired thus hot hot \) \( input \) \( balanced mixer keyboard \) \( cold gnd gnd ground lift switch disconnects gnd line mixer transformer ratio depends precise application , around 10 1 turns ratio may good place start christopher christopher hicks paradise linear gaussian world cmh uk ac cam eng \( also reported taste hot sweaty \)
cmh eng cam ac uk \( c hicks \) subject microphone pre amp low noise phantom powered organization cam eng lines 22 nntp posting host eng cam ac uk davidj rahul net \( david josephson \) writes cmcl2 nyu edu ali cns nyu edu \( alan \) writes i'm looking build microphone preamp good low noise characteristics , large clean gain , phantom power \( 20 48 volts \( dc \) \) pzm microphone i'm leaning towards good , low cost \( \? \? \) instrumentation amplifier maintain balanced input microphone , good , internal compensation , use minimal parts anyone experience , suggestions , advice , etc 'd like pass , 'd greatly appreciate without anything really tricky , best 've seen burr brown databook shows good application chip phantom power mic pre 've good results \( part analogue devices \) also introduced looks good paper , n't tried yet christopher christopher hicks paradise linear gaussian world cmh uk ac cam eng \( also reported taste hot sweaty \)
siemens co \( f \) subject dsp 56001 nntp posting host siemens austria organization siemens ag lines 15 hi ! ! ! somebody using 56001 dsp motorola \? \? \? searching concerning audio effects built 4 channel mixer \( \) audio signals built digital filters , want include effects like harmonic equalizer chorus problem , dont know effects work \( cant write \) someone knows effects work , please contact newsgroup via e mail \( also books problem \) thanks advance \( \)
subject cable tvi interference ganter ifi unibas ch \( robert ganter \) organization institut fuer informatik nntp posting host schroeder ifi unibas ch lines 56 article 4t hpscit sc hp com writes typical , probably somebody else 's job although n't needed , might take minutes wander around neighborhood ht cable leakage freq shutting system fortunate enough find hole , call cable company get highest link chain command explain problem , whose job really maintain equipment , much nice guy tracked problem may lucky made new contact could helpful future always try approach bringing jack nicholson impressions \) worked past power company find loose noisy high voltage lines hardware tell narrowing problem specific pole whole line poles car got 'em night , n't meet jack ! disclaimer , method finding loose hardware usually poles huge high tech arc finding could n't find problem bill rotten garden switzerland , situation exactly cable tv companies even tried stop amateur radio switzerland beginning cable tv \( seem stupid know anything international frequency conferences \) even today , use cheapest possible coax running problems ca n't solve anymore bill noted , way look solution neighbours calling cable tv guys fcc chance find neighbours sense reason far bigger people \( especially first ones \) anywhere administration people n't like , tell work money get problem , radio amateurs n't power put rights cases let 's hope start soon optical fibers get cheers robert \( hb9nby \) robert ganter universitaet basel fan institut fuer informatik plan basel switzerland ganter ifi unibas ch amateurradio hb9nby packet hb9nby hb9eas che eu
oasys dt navy mil \( martin \) subject 4 band equalizer reply oasys dt navy mil \( martin \) organization carderock division , nswc , bethesda , md lines 15 wondering anyone net land knew simple way make 4 band equalizer \( single channel \) need accept line inputs \( tape deck , cd player , etc \) output ! input impedance equal output impedance also , since driving line , would need 1 volt p p output final requirement either 1 control digitally 2 control easily , resistors finally anyone knows filter equalizer chips , might useful , please let know \( seen couple national , maxim \) thanks advance , martin
arthur noguerola vos stratus com subject adcom cheap products \? organization stratus computer , marlboro lines 22 nntp posting host m21 eng stratus com article world std com world std com \( roger williams \) wrote amiganet chi il us \( mike donahue \) writes know much adcom mobil audio products , know fact adcom make high end home audio 80 comes directly like high volume manufacturers , adcom pc boards assembled shore \( case , mostly far east \) final assembly testing done east brunswick course older folks net remember way back adcom got rave reviews kudos \( ca 1985 \) 555 amp preamp designed built usa went mexico taiwan right sales review ! ! ! units old look made stickers unit
\( \) subject receiver system summary multi channel receiver system \? keywords telemetry , receiver system organization national hospitals , iceland lines 19 dear netters want send emg signals running person computer signal 4khz wide 30 running person signal sent hundred meters seems frequency intended use 150mhz make transmitters light possible suppose best send signals analog form application rather specialized expect able buy exact transmitter units need hand imagine buy receiver somewhere need \( 30 channels \) receiver 30 complete receivers rack system one add many receivers needed particular case anybody know existing receiver system market \? \( \) \( please respond email rather nn \)
snakemail hut fi \( h \) subject telephone hook hok ok circuit organization helsinki university technology , finland lines 17 laird pasture ecn purdue edu werple apana org au nntp posting host lk hp 11 hut fi reply zikzak apana org au 's message 7 apr 1993 05 26 18 gmt article werple apana org au zikzak apana org au \( peter \) writes since hook line aprox 48 , hook usually drops led series zener say around 30v hook led hook led would work \? anyone tries tried , please let know recommended circuit would take much current , telephone hook telephone company like hut fi ! law hut fi ! jams force breaks , ! needed replacing anyway text provided without express implied warranty
webb itu1 \( 90 webber ah \) subject adcom cheap products \? article hippo 1993apr16 organization rhodes university , grahamstown , south africa lines 44 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 want upgrade system thinking buying adcom seperates heard alot people , though , adcom sounds great components made cheaply therefore wo n't last long time estimates 've heard like 3 4 years true \? adcom 60w power amp far i'm concerned , 's amp touch price range build quality impressive far superior amps price range whole amplifier extremely solid massive heat sinks solid casing open amp , good quality components amp seems designed extremely well perfect symmetry channels two transformers one channel binding posts back amplifier virtually model 70 ie good also sceptical amps built far east ever look amp see components use designed , easily see amplifiers sound brilliant cannot see people say amplifier wo n't last quality components inside sure amp runs fairly hot 's get amp sound incredibly good last point , recently adcom preamp something like 545 something two years old still sounded like new build amplifier , like adcom 's , sound brilliant last long time period thoughts , one adcom 's amps alan webber webb itu1 sun ac za webb sun ac za path tread narrow drop sheer high ravens watching vantage point near creeping like choo train spine reach end final rhyme
csir co za \( mike abbot \) subject high level language compilers \? article 30 0 organization csir lines 15 nntp posting host 146 64 23 16 x disclaimer none expressed herein official x disclaimer opinions csir subsidiaries x disclaimer n't freak us anything howdy chaps anybody got pointers good c , pascal , etc compilers microcontrollers , shareware otherwise \? specific need 8051 c , responses many varied post summary cheers mike mike abbott csir co za cape town fred csir co za south africa
wtm uhura neoucom edu \( bill mayhew \) subject illusion organization northeastern ohio universities college medicine lines 31 missed first article line due chance read news couple days idea least one product , private eye 's small cube shaped device user straps around head similar sweat band boom comes side device mounted positioned front user 's eye private eye evaluation hercules mda compatible innards row \( 400 leds \) swept like movement result sweeping led bar forms fused raster virtual image projected front user visual system tends fuse background n't like device much found easiest use looked blank white wall problems focus tracking glanced look keyboard way key unit also emitted soft buzz vibration found annoying people n't seem mind buzz properly used , however , image clarity quite crisp n't know company taken technology last year two , seem promise bill mayhew neoucom computer services department rootstown , oh 44272 9995 usa phone 216 325 2511 wtm uhura neoucom edu \( 140 220 1 1 \) 146 580 n8wed
michael vos stratus com subject adcom cheap products \? organization stratus computer , marlboro lines 20 nntp posting host m3 enet eng stratus com shore assembly one reason adcom able make products perform well people like audio research van \( better \) , much lower cost spell helper \? gather shore assembly mean built blue fin 's squid fi sound \? \( agree one \) adcom 555 preamp sound better installing famous running chips class resistor mod , replacing metal bottom cover , , bad factory could make em sound better , , better sound , unfortunately , appear priority adcom , else mods would neither necessary , would improved already touted state art le really want hear people traded \( even ! \) 555 etc , maybe dumped amps gfa 555 etc
wtm uhura neoucom edu \( bill mayhew \) subject adcom cheap products \? organization northeastern ohio universities college medicine lines 23 adcom gfa 555 got 1985 certainly n't anything magic components used decent , nothing uncommon respect consumer grade components gfa 555 nice piece equipment i'm glad adcom guts packaging see audiophile oriented equipment whose case heat sinks probably cost much receive attention electronics supposed serve n't see big deal geographic region something assembled especially true something low technology gfa 555 'd hope gfa 545 would still work well several years except conditions extreme abuse , n't much go wrong bill mayhew neoucom computer services department rootstown , oh 44272 9995 usa phone 216 325 2511 wtm uhura neoucom edu \( 140 220 1 1 \) 146 580 n8wed
subject microwaves used collect xyz coordinates ganter ifi unibas ch \( robert ganter \) organization institut fuer informatik nntp posting host schroeder ifi unibas ch lines 63 article 1993apr15 cc usu edu writes article ag7 bcstec ca boeing com , rgc3679 bcstec ca boeing com \( robert g carpenter \) writes seems reasonable microwave transmitter receiver setup could job example , say want map acre lot , 'd convenient place mw transmitters around lot 's periphery \( either 2 3 \) carry hand held recorder walk point lot , press button recorder 's location stored digital data 's chance working \? systems like already exist \? kind accuracy could expect \? would something like cost prototype \? better alternative microwaves \? course could develope system , already system called global positioning satellites gives three dimensional coordinates anywhere earth many use system differential receiver transmitter get coordinates within basic receivers resolution meters \( good day \) available many sources weston r beal sldf3 sol ee usu edu sldf3 cc usu edu electrical engineer utah state university 's wonderful thing crayons take places thought means global positioning system two precision levels , one army applications \( killing accurate today \) one civil ones civil precision 20 \( correct , i'm wrong \) , though , may mapping buildings way additional reference point \( e g one fixed gps system house \) get high precision military version , gets pretty complicated use microwave system \( actually means type radar \) , need quite lot number crunching get accurate data original signals gps system seems better \( running \) idea application \( discussions newsgroup , n't know address anymore \) cheers robert \( hb9nby \) robert ganter universitaet basel fan institut fuer informatik plan basel switzerland ganter ifi unibas ch amateurradio hb9nby packet hb9nby hb9eas che eu
wtm uhura neoucom edu \( bill mayhew \) subject mysterious tv problem source \? organization northeastern ohio universities college medicine lines 19 set direct line powered , try checking likely hybrid regulator module stream 170 volt supply several sets 've looked use 135 volt regulator regulators tendency short , making safety circuits shut supply section try putting set adjustable transformer lower ac input voltage set 90 volts set operates , know 've got shorted regulator myriad areas problems , 've seen one several times also , set uses one , module may shot 's fairly common bill mayhew neoucom computer services department rootstown , oh 44272 9995 usa phone 216 325 2511 wtm uhura neoucom edu \( 140 220 1 1 \) 146 580 n8wed
mtl mit edu \( lawrence hsu \) subject monitor window \? organization mit microsystems technology laboratories lines 12 nntp posting host mtl mit edu anyone know causes ever growing black border around edges computer screen \? growth gradual n't know long 's taken get bad 19 dec \( \? \) color monitor , maybe five years old , black border 1 1 inches left right sides , 1 75 inches bottom negligible top screen controls brightness knob , contrast knob , switch , power switch anything done , monitor 's days numbered \? larry hsu mtl mit edu
wtm uhura neoucom edu \( bill mayhew \) subject dumb question function generator organization northeastern ohio universities college medicine lines 36 1 \) output offset obtain service manual oscilloscope adjust internal output offset virtual certainty internal offset control 's zero position 2 \) verify function generator properly loaded many generators expect supply 50 ohm load go hamfest flea market around pass 50 ohm terminator male female bnc \( whatever \) connector tektronix scope designed put 4v 1 meg load , 1 volt 50 ohm load may also find loading output function generator also reduces harmonic distortion build n't use \( would n't want use \) input impedance device test part voltage divider drop input test voltage consider 10k \? ohm gen 50 ohm u \( loaded \) think ratio 50 10k think accuracy read voltages oscilloscope virtually discount loading u also test generator want good luck , bill mayhew neoucom computer services department rootstown , oh 44272 9995 usa phone 216 325 2511 wtm uhura neoucom edu \( 140 220 1 1 \) 146 580 n8wed
seema madvlsi columbia edu \( seema varma \) subject ic packages organization columbia university x posted britain madvlsi columbia edu nntp posting host sol ctr columbia edu lines 28 hi , looking help choosing package high speed silicon adc \( 100mhz \) currently fabricated phd research project test chip speed pcb expect roughly 100 packaged circuits dc , low speed high speed testing using 3 different set ups test chip know sure dip work \( long lead lines high inductance \) getting custom made package expensive , trying choose leadless chip carrier would hard test since soldered test setup would spend loads time soldering kept changing test chip leadless chip carrier sockets also long lead lines may work high speeds anyone experience knowledge field \? would greatly appreciate help ! ideas names companies manufacturing holders sockets packages would help p multi layer fancy gaas packages seem like bit overkill \( \? \) seema varma
wtm uhura neoucom edu \( bill mayhew \) subject nuclear site 's cooling towers \? keywords nuclear organization northeastern ohio universities college medicine lines 25 complete thought , cooling towers cool water heat turbine exhaust back feedwater heat transfer energy reactor 's cooling circuit turbine , etc reactor c reactor closed loop circuit prevent radioactive contamination turbine feedwater cooling tower separate circuit contamination turbine feedwater atmospheric , etc boiler feedwater important business fossil fired nuclear generation facilities bill mayhew neoucom computer services department rootstown , oh 44272 9995 usa phone 216 325 2511 wtm uhura neoucom edu \( 140 220 1 1 \) 146 580 n8wed
engr latech edu \( john p mains \) subject electrical properties organization louisiana tech university lines 13 distribution usa reply engr latech edu nntp posting host altair engr latech edu hello , looking carbon rubber highly elastic material changes , electrical property could email info may material names companies make stuff would highly thanx jp biomedical engineering louisiana tech university
subject picking cable tv aerial ganter ifi unibas ch \( robert ganter \) organization institut fuer informatik nntp posting host schroeder ifi unibas ch lines 11 great , first advantage cheap coax , 've ever heard cheers robert \( hb9nby \) robert ganter universitaet basel fan institut fuer informatik plan basel switzerland ganter ifi unibas ch amateurradio hb9nby packet hb9nby hb9eas che eu
subject nuclear site 's cooling towers \? ganter ifi unibas ch \( robert ganter \) organization institut fuer informatik nntp posting host schroeder ifi unibas ch lines 34 article 1qlg9o d7q sequoia ccsd uts edu au writes really n't know post question figured board would appropriate wondering massive concrete cylinders ever present nuclear poer sites look like cylinders pinched middle anybody know actual purpose things \? hear 're called 'cooling towers' heck cool \? hope someone help definitely wrong newsgroup , never mind machine powered heat \( motor , steam , , , etc \) work better , bigger temperature difference input output never get energy powering medium \( steam , burning gaz , etc \) , eliminate rest energy keep high thermal electric power plant \( coal , oil atomic power \) works way heat water \( steam \) power turbine generators n't get whole energy steam \( never 100 \) cool steam something else power plants use cooling towers purpose \( type mega refrigerator \) others use water river \( \) got \? cheers robert \( hb9nby \) robert ganter universitaet basel fan institut fuer informatik plan basel switzerland ganter ifi unibas ch amateurradio hb9nby packet hb9nby hb9eas che eu
gerald belton ozonehole com \( gerald belton \) subject question 120v distribution world organization ozone online operations , inc , dba ozone hole bbs reply gerald belton ozonehole com \( gerald belton \) lines 38 's question seems 'd electrical circuit hooked neutral jumper neutral ground screw new 'three prong' grounding outlets 's wrong reasoning \? first , go local hardware store pick copy wiring simplified h l richter house wired metal conduit , n't need seperate ground wire \( assuming house wired correctly pipes connected cold water pipe basement \) outlets neutral hooked ground screw seem wrong anyone else think \? back 70 's service technician cash register company cash registers used microprocessor circuits back susceptible electrostatic discharge line noise biggest problems came outlets properly grounded almost every place went installation , found outlets ground connected neutral 99 9 things plug one , work fine cash registers nightmare line noise tended scramble memory periodically modern electronics using switching power supplies less problem even company used work longer recommending dedicated line seperate ground equipment imagine check household wiring find ground neutral connected although ideal , k applications slmr 2 1 reality check bounced ozone hole bbs private bulletin board service \( 504 \) 891 3142 3 full service nodes usrobotics 16 8k bps 10 gigs 100 , 000 files skydive new orleans ! rime network mail hub 500 usenet newsgroups please route questions inquiries postmaster ozonehole com
mike diack mike staff tc umn edu subject husky programmer bits req 'd x xxdate sat , 17 apr 93 04 10 01 gmt nntp posting host dialup slip 1 90 gw umn edu organization persian cat carpet co x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d7 lines 5 help ! ! i'm looking isa driver card driver software logical devices husky programmer \( aint mush good without \) anyone help either items \? cheers mike
wtm uhura neoucom edu \( bill mayhew \) subject receiver system keywords telemetry , receiver system organization northeastern ohio universities college medicine lines 22 one thing consider time division multiplexing emg channels reduce number rf carriers generate multiplexed emg inputs , would probably sufficient physiology studies \( 'd 330 hz per channel sampling rate \) level analog multiplexing rather easy accomplish combining lot rf carriers pretty tricky without generating system carried runner fairly harsh environment would probably difficult keep balanced commercial hand held transciever could probably employed little modification accomodate bandwidth obviously , done accordance whatever laws govern use location bill mayhew neoucom computer services department rootstown , oh 44272 9995 usa phone 216 325 2511 wtm uhura neoucom edu \( 140 220 1 1 \) 146 580 n8wed
cam castle ed ac uk \( chris malcolm \) subject casio serial link organization edinburgh university lines 8 casio 7500 diary 3 wire serial interface setting like rs232 , one get magic expensive cable connect pc anyone know spec interface , e g , needs boosting cmos signals match rs232 lines \? chris malcolm cam uk ac ed 44 \( 0 \) 31 650 department artificial intelligence , edinburgh university 5 forrest hill , edinburgh , , uk dod 205
garyg warren mentorg com \( gary gendel \) subject question 120vac outlet wiring organization mentor graphics corp ic group lines 42 distribution world reply garyg warren mentorg com nntp posting host garyg warren mentorg com article cmkrnl com , jeh cmkrnl com writes article 1993apr14 172145 27458 ecsvax uncecs edu , crisp ecsvax uncecs edu \( russ crisp \) writes 's question seems 'd electrical circuit hooked jumper neutral ground screw new 'three prong' grounding outlets 's wrong reasoning \? want three prong outlets without additional wiring use gfci outlet \( breaker , outlet cheaper \) fact , depending putting new outlet \( \) , gfci may required still need supply proper ground ground fault circuit interrupter ! still part job , however , ground may connected local earth ground , rather back breaker box jamie said , gfci devices required code number places , notably bathrooms , outside house suggest use gfci outlets , rather breakers end much less headaches noise pickup long cable runs sometimes enough cause frequent tripping breakers gfci devices save lives , decide install , sure check regularly \( using test button \) running family business \( electrical supplies lighting \) many years , seen many electricians fried , forgot double check common sense list please exercise caution gary gendel vice president current consulting assignment corp mentor graphics corporation 9 woods drive 15 independence boulevard belle mead , nj warren , nj phone \( 908 \) 281 phone \( 908 \) 604 fax \( 908 \) 281 email garyg warren mentorg com
dp utexas edu subject chip chipset code 39 barcode \? organization utexas mail news gateway lines 15 nntp posting host cs utexas edu distribution usa reply lihan ccwf cc utexas edu i'm net bugging everyone , thing chip chipset decode code 39 barcode \? ask couple reasons mainly want reasonably compact encoding scheme write information magstripe cards code 39 appears right \( 'right' way something else , 's reasonably easy , someone let know \? \) might get chance reply quickly earlier post , 'll get within couple days , think thanx everyone ! bgb lihan ccwf cc utexas edu
donrm sr hp com \( montgomery \) subject radio shack battery month club organization hp sonoma county \( srsd mwtd mid \) x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 2 lines 10 radio shack canceled battery month club anyone know \? say 'll honor existing cards customer hands , new cards issued montgomery donrm sr hp com
johne vcd hp com \( john eaton \) subject nuclear site 's cooling towers \? organization hewlett packard vcd x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 lines 30 s87271077 walker man 50 \( swalker uts edu au \) wrote really n't know post question figured board would appropriate wondering massive concrete cylinders ever present nuclear poer sites look like cylinders pinched middle anybody know actual purpose things \? hear 're called 'cooling towers' heck cool \? hope someone help nuclear fission reaction uranium fuel get hot enough melt happens liquid uranium pumped cooling tower sprayed air contact cool outside air condense mist fall back cooling tower floor collected cleaning crew using shop reformed pellets reactor use next day cooling towers lot taller really need power companies forced make tall enviromental law requires raw uranium held 1 law attack lawyers arguing 1 measured edge property rather edge cooling tower eliminating law save power companies thousands dollars concrete costs new nukes john eaton ! hp vcd ! johne
mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) subject ungrounded gfcis question 120vac outlet wiring nntp posting host aisun3 ai uga edu organization ai programs , university georgia , athens lines 22 article sdl warren mentorg com garyg warren mentorg com writes want three prong outlets without additional wiring use gfci outlet \( breaker , outlet cheaper \) fact , depending putting new outlet \( \) , gfci may required still need supply proper ground ground fault circuit interrupter ! oddly enough , n't , least according wiring faq regularly posted misc consumers house gfci senses discrepancies live neutral wire currents , cuts discrepancy found ground connection needed function michael covington , associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu university georgia phone 706 542 0358 athens , georgia 30602 7415 u amateur radio n4tmi
subject looking good spice book juhan \( juhan \) organization tartu university , department chemistry nntp posting host chem ut ee x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 17 lines 17 acsu buffalo edu neil b gandler \( v064mb9k ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \) wrote electrical engineering student must get familiar spice using getting used would great good reference manual explains everything organized concise current guide circuit simulation analysis using spice feel information randomly placed book easy look small things need good reference book would appreciate info thanks postscript manual ic berkeley edu pub um 3f ps directory \( , 126 pages \) juhan , juhan chem ut ee tartu university , dept chemistry fax 372 \( 34 \) 2 st , ee 2400 , tartu , estonia , via stockholm voice 372 \( 34 \)
subject 2sc1096 , 2sa634 specs \? juhan \( juhan \) organization tartu university , department chemistry nntp posting host chem ut ee x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 10 lines 10 hi , could kind soul post max power voltage current ratings 2sc1096 2sa634 transistors , conductance types pinouts used sweep portion tv set thanks advance , juhan , juhan chem ut ee tartu university , dept chemistry fax 372 \( 34 \) 2 st , ee 2400 , tartu , estonia , via stockholm voice 372 \( 34 \)
aras csl ncsu edu \( aras \) subject polaroid range finder interference help ! organization etc organization lines 26 setup 13 polaroid would like fire three time 5 ms firings three fired fire direction explain situation , assume firing , b , c 5 ms apart normally see echo corresponds distance however , detects init line b ! detection actually transducer see faint signal transducer , exactly time init line b activated feel ground coupling causing interference came conclusion since using separate power supply b c anyone else problems particular units type experience \? suggestions remedies greatly appreciated aras aras ece ncsu edu ece department ph 919 515 north carolina state university fx 919 515 raleigh , nc
jra law7 daytonoh ncr com \( john ackermann x 2966 \) subject single chip receiver fsk \? reply jra law7 daytonoh ncr com \( john ackermann x 2966 \) organization ncr corporation law department lines 21 next project come detector module fast 112 250 kb sec packet radio use fancy modulation scheme , wide fsk use 902 1296 mhz i'm bit familiar motorola chip , wonder newer designs might work higher input frequencies goal come inexpensive design receiver back end input one end fsk i'm particularly interested ways use higher 10 7 current chips work , say 150mhz internal normal filter used \? suggestions \? john john r ackermann , jr law department , ncr corporation , dayton , ohio \( 513 \) 445 2966 john ackermann daytonoh ncr com packet radio oh tcp ip ampr 44 70 12 232
paj uk co gec mrc \( paul johnson \) subject history question reply paj uk co gec mrc \( paul johnson \) organization gec marconi research centre , great baddow , uk lines 25 article kazel 15 uiuc edu kazel uiuc edu \( mitch kazel \) writes sorry n't correct news group colleague mine trying find first public use electronic voice amplification e p system reference would appreciated please reply via e mail mitch kazel \( \) internet kazel uiuc edu vague , posting case anyone else knows recall reading phonograph used mechanical amplification compressed air squirted valve controlled pickup result noisy distinctly lo fi , much louder conventional phonograph tended wear disks pretty quickly though paul paul johnson \( paj gec mrc co uk \) tel 44 245 73331 ext 3245 ideas others like gec marconi research 0 02 reputable idealist responsible opinions
horne cs utexas edu \( patrick j horne \) subject thermal fuse supplier wanted organization cs dept , university texas austin lines 21 nntp posting host im4u cs utexas edu keywords thermal fuse apple laserwriter ii power supply \( made cannon \) need replace fuse standard thermal fuse like found hair etc , rectangular plastic package , much like transistor diode 0 2 x0 2 x0 1 , leads coming one 0 1 x0 1 sides told made , asian company , find information supplier fuse rated 1a , anyone source fuse \? need 5 , means manufacturer would n't even want talk , let alone , deal please advise via e mail thanks , pat like boats bicycles , 're healthier pat horne , network manager , shop supervisor , hardware guru cs dept , university texas , austin , tx 78712 usa voice \( 512 \) 471 , fax \( 512 \) 471 , uucp cs utexas edu ! horne
pat fegmania wustl edu \( pat niemeyer \) subject 25 network organization washington university saint louis , mo usa lines 14 reply pat fegmania wustl edu nntp posting host fegmania wustl edu originator pat fegmania folks lbl \( little big lan \) 75 think get 50 already 25 network lbl works arcnet , parallel ports , serial ports combination 250 nodes flames please , picked discussion bit late really curious exactly 25 network \? something hack together n serial cables \? something n serial drivers \? thanks , pat
dtmedin catbyte b30 ingr com \( dave medin \) subject plug reply dtmedin catbyte b30 ingr com organization intergraph corporation , huntsville al lines 15 anyone series scope mainframe , plug \( , believe \) need keep interested \? e mail dave medin phone \( 205 \) 730 3169 \( w \) ssd networking \( 205 \) 837 1174 \( h \) intergraph corp gd3004 internet dtmedin catbyte b30 ingr com huntsville , al 35894 uucp uunet ! ingr ! b30 ! catbyte ! dtmedin everywhere look \( least around office \) opinions expressed mine \( machine \)
dtmedin catbyte b30 ingr com \( dave medin \) subject emulator pods reply dtmedin catbyte b30 ingr com organization intergraph corporation , huntsville al lines 23 surplus dealing buddy mine came two emulator pods \( hp development station \) 8086 target processor dip head include board plugs applied microsystems 188 pod , head interest either , let know look excellent condition n't know , may mean 'll cheap dave medin phone \( 205 \) 730 3169 \( w \) ssd networking \( 205 \) 837 1174 \( h \) intergraph corp gd3004 internet dtmedin catbyte b30 ingr com huntsville , al 35894 uucp uunet ! ingr ! b30 ! catbyte ! dtmedin everywhere look \( least around office \) opinions expressed mine \( machine \)
bill xpresso uucp \( bill vance \) subject help construct home built battery 3rd grade sci report distribution usa organization \( n \) organized 's important right lines 32 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 dean anneser \( anneser pwa b uucp \) wrote 9 yr old son signed science report batteries wondering anyone could provide information construct home built battery grade school days , remember seeing cube version , n't remember use good electrolyte easily obtainable metals thank advance dean w anneser pratt whitney aircraft computer system specialist 161 05 \( 203 \) 565 \( desk \) \( fax \) 400 main st ooo \( \) v \( \) uucp uunet ! pwa b ! anneser east hartford , ct live ride internet anneser utc com one test result worth one thousand expert opinions von braun dean w anneser pratt whitney aircraft computer system specialist 161 05 \( 203 \) 565 \( desk \) \( fax \) 400 main st ooo \( \) v \( \) uucp uunet ! pwa b ! anneser east hartford , ct live ride simplest one easy take lemon citrus type fruit , stick pair metal strips contacts two strips must metals like copper zinc connect voltmeter contacts read voltage bill xpresso uucp \( bill vance \) , , wa rwing ! xpresso ! bill listen xpresso , listen \)
miller waii com \( griff miller \) subject 68000 organization western geo div western atlas inc , houston , tx lines 24 nntp posting host waii com article 1993apr15 serval net wsu edu eecs wsu edu \( ronald cs \) writes supra accelerator mentioned one articles , 68000 68020 based runs 68030 design using simple \( referring a500 model \) hmm n't think thinking thing original poster , btw accelerator i'm talking almost certainly uses , according footnotes supra ad costs 199 list , really doubt 28 mhz 68030 inside 's called supra 28 , supra turbo 28 's external a500 model , internal a2000 model btw , anyone know exists \? griff miller griff miller waii com use email opinions mine , western 's dear friend , imitate evil good anyone good god anyone evil seen god 3 john 9
bps kodak com \( bruce p \) subject question 120vac outlet wiring organization eastman kodak lines 29 article 1993apr15 cmkrnl com jeh cmkrnl com writes article 1993apr14 172145 27458 ecsvax uncecs edu , crisp ecsvax uncecs edu \( russ crisp \) writes i'm considering modernizing old wiring home , need little advice outlet wiring several outlets old prong' type , without ground naturally , wire feeding outlets 12 2 , without ground wire noticed fusebox circuits 12 2 ground , circuits , ground wire tied bus neutral \( white \) wire supposed connected together breaker panel nowhere , repeat nowhere , else \( well , almost strange exceptions things like sub panels \) jamie hanrahan , kernel mode systems , san diego ca internet jeh cmkrnl com uucp uunet ! cmkrnl ! jeh cis 74140 , 2055 even sub panels ! place neutral connected ground service disconnect ! house main panel serves service disconnect sub garage workshop example must maintain seperate neutral ground busses service disconnect equipment steve , licensed electrician , read nec book \( brother though \) \)
subject exploding tv ! uceng uc edu \( han \) distribution usa organization university cincinnati lines 12 article vtserf cc vt edu prasad vtaix cc vt edu \( prasad ramakrishna \) writes would picture tube explode even smoke \? 's picture tube likely flyback emerson \? ca n't admire han prasad vtvm1 cc vt edu
spot colorado edu \( wayne hooper \) subject making copy video tape keywords video nntp posting host spot colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 13 victor inqmind bison mb ca \( victor laking \) writes experiencing called macrovision protection use video tapes two ways around know first , try using different vcr copy onto input vcr reacts protection sometimes switching two vcrs around take care models n't react also affect viewing tapes \? problems couple rented tapes virtually fiddled tuning , tracking vertical hold good
eecs wsu edu \( luis g perez \) subject beam robot olympic games next week toronto organization lines 10 anybody know mailing list newsgroup power systems related areas \? thanks , luis g perez eecs wsu edu
cgordon vpnet chi il us \( gordon hlavenka \) subject old 256k simms \? organization vpnet public access lines 14 jhaines eniac seas upenn edu \( jason haines \) writes wondering people good uses old 256k simms , inovative use \( want buy simms 8 \) \) , would interested hearing month ago photo posted alt binaries pictures misc 17 5 inch northern pike caught lure made 256k simms gordon hlavenka cgordon vpnet chi il us vote straight ticket procrastination party dec 3rd !
heuvel neptune iex com \( ted van den heuvel \) subject motorola originator heuvel neptune iex com organization iex lines 12 let try sending message , botched margins first time sorry 'bout \) anyone know products using motorola 's neuron \( r \) chips , utilizing standard network variable types \( \) \? ted van den heuvel heuvel neptune iex com
tomb hplsla hp com \( tom bruhns \) subject trace size 15 amp supply organization hp lake stevens , wa lines 34 acollins uclink berkeley edu \( andy collins \) writes thick need make pcb trace 15 amps current \? anybody thoughts process \( kind pcb use , materials , thickness copper , advice graciously accepted \) \? four replies , 've seen hard numbers , goes traces outside \( inner layers \) , expect , 1 oz copper , 15 amps , following temperature rises versus width reference data engineers , seventh edition , pg 5 30 , claims turn mil std width temp rise inches degrees c 125 100 15 75 17 60 20 45 24 30 33 20 10 amps , rise 125 width 30 degrees power goes square current , plus copper resistance goes temperature goes certainly 20 \( \) traces ample want 2 ounce copper almost cuts required width half \( 'd 2 oz 0 08 width , think given rated current 10 amps 15 transient fault condition \) \( 's another question voltage drop low enough \? able figure one wire tables copper keep traces short use separate sensing traces appropriate , mentioned another poster \)
tomb hplsla hp com \( tom bruhns \) subject looking spread spectrum modules organization hp lake stevens , wa lines 12 butts ee twsu edu \( ronald w butts , jr \) writes looking suppliers spread spectrum radio modules need implement two way audio band link \( essentially guts cordless phone want \) n't exactly audio , take look rf design magazine , april 93 , article robust technique part 15 rf control applications page 29 sources parts mentioned issue article features chipset digital european cordless telecommunications standard
tomb hplsla hp com \( tom bruhns \) subject question 120vac outlet wiring organization hp lake stevens , wa lines 21 crisp ecsvax uncecs edu \( russ crisp \) writes 's question seems 'd electrical circuit hooked jumper neutral ground screw new 'three prong' grounding outlets 's wrong reasoning \? may respectfully suggest \? \? ground supposed protective ground , though suggest looks good paper , 's dangerous rely wire power protection 'd never meet code , property later sell , may end liabilities n't want , n't , well 's wiring faq think addresses believe alternative use gfci , i'm really sure current code allows area gfci senses alternate \( unwanted \) current paths , n't rely specific protective ground wire , least beyond gfci protected circuit gfci breakers available \( expensive \)
sr hp com \( glenn \) subject single chip receiver fsk \? organization hp sonoma county \( srsd mwtd mid \) x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 2 lines 78 john ackermann x 2966 \( jra law7 daytonoh ncr com \) wrote next project come detector module fast 112 250 kb sec packet radio use fancy modulation scheme , wide fsk use 902 1296 mhz i'm bit familiar motorola chip , wonder newer designs might work higher input frequencies goal come inexpensive design receiver back end input one end fsk i'm particularly interested ways use higher 10 7 current chips work , say 150mhz internal normal filter used \? suggestions \? john describe close built described 10th arrl computer network conference proceedings built 10 watt fsk transceivers 904 mhz essentially double conversion digital mod 29 mhz receiver uses fsk receiver chip used 2 10 ghz data link first published ham radio also arrl handbook , includes vhf converter section , could also used speeds newer perhaps slightly improved design \( remember rightly \) using would let reduce external count receive , n't really offer much help transmit n't bother radios built first designed built 512 kbps 2 mhz channel later reduced half 256 kbps radios actually done quite well across bench tests 384 kbps speed pretty much function filter design handling data stream another matter entirely existing radios currently deployed beacon test mode yet end end two way data flow due lack resources debug software digital hardware \( also shown proceedings \) , data perfect copy even though data clock currently half speed , 2 kbytes test text \( chapter 55 isaiah \) takes little 1 8 second 've hoping someone would get interested enough step get involved writing code make whole thing usable \( borland ide environment remote debugging possible mentioned proceedings \) date couple us running low resources time , money energy anyone sf bay area wants check also cw id text mark side 904 740 mhz beacons sonoma mtn black mtn \( overlooking si valley \) antenna horizontally polarized guess retrospect suggestions fairly costly approach radios intended users rather might want carefully consider target ca n't arrange paths complete line sight think 'll want address inter symbol interference caused probably link c n budgets paths far los details , see 10th i'm currently working spread spectrum , direct conversion design address problems 'd glad help design problems 73 glenn amateur ip glenn santarosa ampr org internet sr hp com
dtmedin catbyte b30 ingr com \( dave medin \) subject plug reply dtmedin catbyte b30 ingr com organization intergraph corporation , huntsville al lines 18 hp 1815 plug series scope mainframe i'm never going use \( scope \) 're interested , please let know price \? probably real cheap notice may appeared posted , never showed local server dave medin phone \( 205 \) 730 3169 \( w \) ssd networking \( 205 \) 837 1174 \( h \) intergraph corp gd3004 internet dtmedin catbyte b30 ingr com huntsville , al 35894 uucp uunet ! ingr ! b30 ! catbyte ! dtmedin everywhere look \( least around office \) opinions expressed mine \( machine \)
auburn edu subject tv reception ! ! ! lines 18 nntp posting host organization auburn university , al lines 18 hello , canceled support cable regime would like least pick 3 networks nbc \) tons money even pounds looking best solution reception 100 dollars seen modules plug wall outlet supposedly make entire house antenna admit , even limited knowledge wavelength aerial reception , seems dubious claims excellent reception best 'll try anything , though , works non mountainous area , approximately 50 miles transmitting stations pretty large \( montgomery alabama pop 200 , 000 \) , pop 100 , 000 recommendations products , brand names , prices company info \( catalog ordering numbers , addresses etc \) \? thank advance paul sylvester auburn edu voice 205 887
flux isr alaska edu \( donald rice \) subject heavy duty antenna simulation software nntp posting host flux isr alaska edu organization geophysical institute , fairbanks , ak lines 21 would interested hearing anyone knows good software antenna simulation , particularly source form suitable unix workstations \( though good pc software would also interest \) i'm aware numerous mutations , using mn time i'm primarily interested hf , vhf , low uhf \( 500 mhz \) designs , mostly wire antennas , thick wires mesh surfaces well basic thin wire assumption anything interesting happening nec \? 've seen version mutilated run \( sort \) microsoft fortran , i'm sure many new improved versions code might somewhere 'd also interested non nec derivatives ones 've seen aimed microwave applications , something useful lower frequencies , 'd like know thanks , rice e mail flux isr alaska edu \( internet \) geophysical institute alaska \( bitnet \) university alaska flux \( span \) fairbanks , ak phone \( 907 \) 474 loran 64 212
alung megatest com \( aaron lung \) subject ic packages organization megatest corporation lines 58 article 1993apr16 sol ctr columbia edu seema madvlsi columbia edu \( seema varma \) writes hi , looking help choosing package high speed silicon adc \( 100mhz \) currently fabricated phd research project test chip speed pcb expect roughly 100 packaged circuits dc , low speed high speed testing using 3 different set ups test chip know sure dip work \( long lead lines high inductance \) getting custom made package expensive , trying choose leadless chip carrier would hard test since soldered test setup would spend loads time soldering kept changing test chip leadless chip carrier sockets also long lead lines may work high speeds anyone experience knowledge field \? would greatly appreciate help ! ideas names companies manufacturing holders sockets packages would help p multi layer fancy gaas packages seem like bit overkill \( \? \) seema varma n't mention whether cost issue exactly running 100mhz \? \? digital side \? ttl \? ecl \? run 100mhz ic test equipment day long ecl domain , use dip 's along plcc 's , pitch 's name n't see problem packaging long adhere sound engineering practices good source information motorola 's system design handbook latest ed dated 2 88 considered one bibles high speed design fact need build test fixture means 're likely going need socket far inductance per pin package testing , mention impedance n't see big concern packaging probably n't going make much difference 're trying get ttl run 100mhz , fun ttl never designed run 100mhz environment \( aaron p opinions nothing company standard disclaimer applies
alung megatest com \( aaron lung \) subject adcom cheap products \? organization megatest corporation lines 30 article 1993apr16 hippo ru ac za webb itu1 \( 90 webber ah \) writes stuff deleted also sceptical amps built far east ever look amp see components use designed , easily see amplifiers sound brilliant good point also , would n't surprised components use shore inferior quality long properly designed robust , premium components used , n't matter assembled cannot see people say amplifier wo n't last quality components inside sure amp runs fairly hot 's get amp sound incredibly good amp runs hot bearing 's gonna sound amp probably running class whole day actually , 'd wary excessively hot amps , even though components inside may rated run way , excessive heat dramatically shorten life electronic component regardless quality fact , amp run hot touch either engineer manufacturer amp wanted cooling save costs ! hmmmmm aaron
whit carson u washington edu \( john whitmore \) subject nuclear site 's cooling towers \? article shelley organization university washington , seattle lines 25 nntp posting host carson u washington edu article vcd hp com johne vcd hp com \( john eaton \) writes s87271077 walker man 50 \( swalker uts edu au \) wrote nuclear fission reaction uranium fuel get hot enough melt happens liquid uranium pumped cooling tower sprayed air nonsense first , uranium fuel sealed alloy cylinders \( n't melt circumstances short major failure power plant \) second , primary water \( inside reactor core \) never pumped cooling tower \( 's secondary water cycle goes cooling tower \) third , liquid uranium would burst flame contact air contact cool outside air condense mist fall back cooling tower floor collected cleaning crew using shop reformed pellets reactor use next day cleaning crew working mist uranium \? toxic heavy metal , even radioactive n't smileys \? \? john whitmore
rsf cbnewsb cb att com \( roberto freire \) subject fluke organization lines 14 anybody used tested new fluke \? compare low end oscilloscope \? big drawbacks handheld scopes compared scopes price range \( 1000 2000 \) \? info fluke would greatly appreciated thanks , bob freire rsf att com
mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) subject tv reception ! ! ! nntp posting host aisun3 ai uga edu organization ai programs , university georgia , athens lines 14 50 miles , conventional set tv antennas pole \( one aimed transmitter location \) work well rabbit ears inside house probably adequate gadgets plug house wiring even worse vhf , n't want big antenna , want resonant antenna michael covington , associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu university georgia phone 706 542 0358 athens , georgia 30602 7415 u amateur radio n4tmi
webo dg com \( paul \) subject optoisolator interfacing questions reply webo dg com \( paul \) organization data general corporation , westboro , lines 26 interfacing simple circuits run 9v cpu board runs 5 6v optoisolator led side , put signal want 10k resistor base transistor side , tie cpu input line collector pull resistor functions ok , seems slow detect pulses occur , much faster n't rise fall time device , something like \? able detect target , ca n't get done using wire wrap wires going cpu test pin 8 inches long , i'm anything high speed art electronics , mentions tying base phototransistor ground resistor improve speed need \? calculate resistor value \? paul webo dg com \( 508 870 \)
segal rtsg mot com \( gary segal \) subject pinout needed til311 nntp posting host organization motorola inc , cellular infrastructure group lines 17 've recently picked til311 display chips , ca n't find information seems longer made ti , n't old enough data book \( appears dot matrix led display capable showing one hex digit 14 pin dip package , pins 6 , 9 , 11 present information part \( pinout , power , functions , \) please send e mail thank , gary segal motorola inc segal oscar rtsg mot com cellular infrastructure division standing gaze wind
leland stanford edu \( kenneth michael martin \) subject pads model organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa lines 5 anyone done model 52 pin version \? n't seem big job , someone else already done many thanks ken martin
jeh cmkrnl com subject need help car stereo organization kernel mode systems , san diego , ca lines 38 article usenet ins cwru edu , cleveland freenet edu \( paul \) writes friend nice alpine car stereo , 2 channels , one work put current voltage , channel therefore blown \? shut radio ran continuity two speaker channel , charged discharged know wires aint bad probably tells dc blocking capacitor 's series one chip , single ended audio amp speaker terminal ideas \? open look power amp ics 'll fairly obvious replace one connected dead output also , would locate signal radio tape unit gets amplified , could n't hook rca outputs signal could use little amplifier \? well , one thing poke around terminals power amp chips use probe 10m resistor \( like scope probe \) connected input small audio amp w speaker find line level input chips , one chips bad probably replaced pretty easily want pick near line level signal , suitable feeding amp , outer legs volume control pot often good enough volume control \( usually tone balance controls \) take center ground legs volume pot , volume control \( , probably controls \) unit modern type electronic volume control chip , probably forget whole thing jamie hanrahan , kernel mode systems , san diego ca internet jeh cmkrnl com uucp uunet ! cmkrnl ! jeh cis 74140 , 2055
mike diack mike staff tc umn edu subject anyone know data device \? x xxmessage id dialup slip 1 80 gw umn edu x xxdate sat , 17 apr 93 16 03 50 gmt nntp posting host dialup slip 1 80 gw umn edu organization persian cat carpet co x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d7 lines 9 keep finding programmers local junk shops may mean indeed junk 'd like hear anyone else may met basic device data universal programmer , usual pod 001 programming tester adapter 'd really like hear anyone knows whether monsters worth bothering want blast ideas , folks mike
wb8foz skybridge scl cwru edu \( david lesher \) subject history question organization nrk clinic habitual netnews abusers beltway annex lines 24 reply wb8foz skybridge scl cwru edu \( david lesher \) nntp posting host skybridge scl cwru edu others said early pa \? recall reading phonograph used mechanical amplification compressed air squirted valve controlled pickup result noisy distinctly lo fi , much louder conventional phonograph tended wear disks pretty quickly though deceased prof told us willing students project worked wwii needed mega power pa clear audio quality purpose bellow refugees aircraft solution giant compressed air source , horn parallel shutters worked small audio system think said worked well , thus war dept cancelled project host host coast coast wb8foz skybridge scl cwru edu one talk host 's close \( 301 \) 56 linux unless host \( n't close \) pob 1433 busy , hung dead 20915 1433
mtl mit edu \( andrew \) subject ic packages organization mit microsystems technology laboratories lines 31 nntp posting host ampere mit edu article 1993apr16 sol ctr columbia edu seema madvlsi columbia edu \( seema varma \) writes getting custom made package expensive , trying choose leadless chip carrier would hard test since soldered test setup would spend loads time soldering kept changing test chip leadless chip carrier sockets also long lead lines may work high speeds anyone experience knowledge field \? would greatly appreciate help ! ideas names companies manufacturing holders sockets packages would help check kyocera america , inc 24 prime park way , suite 150 , one largest manufacturers ic packaging world sounds like would good candidate probing least ic probing test performance hp , cascade tektronix able help one note , testing high frequency accurately expensive business andrew mit microsystems technology laboratory mtl mit edu
wb8foz skybridge scl cwru edu \( david lesher \) subject exploding tv ! organization nrk clinic habitual netnews abusers beltway annex lines 11 distribution usa reply wb8foz skybridge scl cwru edu \( david lesher \) nntp posting host skybridge scl cwru edu others said would picture tube explode even smoke \? naw , penguin top set exploded host host coast coast wb8foz skybridge scl cwru edu one talk host 's close \( 301 \) 56 linux unless host \( n't close \) pob 1433 busy , hung dead 20915 1433
acs2 bu edu \( \) subject di boxes work \? organization boston university , boston , , usa lines 19 article lancer oconnor wpi edu lancer oconnor wpi edu \( lewis \) writes i'm sound couple bands around need direct input boxes keyboards little boxes take line level keyboard transform low z run mixer sadly cost like 50 \( \) i'm going need like 5 10 ! looked inside one \( belonging another band \) looks like transformer anyone plans building \? 50 ! ! n't bother trying make one , shop around little 've found dod brand di boxes cheap 20 get higher end ones , pa use bands , would n't bother making one might work , getting sturdy enough enclosure might hard \( 're made heavy metal , since 're always floor , kicked around lot \) additional questions topic , might want post rec audio pro bu edu
kolstad cae wisc edu \( joel kolstad \) subject radio shack voice recognition chips organization u wisconsin madison college engineering distribution usa lines 10 hi , friend 'd like get hold bunch simple voice recognition chips radio shack used sell \( longer \) anybody knows source , please e mail 'll forward responses thanks ! joel kolstad
mark tarbell suite com subject switch mode power supply organization suite software lines 17 reply suite ! tarbell uunet uu net nntp posting host suite com typical component set components fault switch mode power supply goes south \? supply disk drive general hints would appreciated ! thanks ! mark tarbell suite com fault switch mode power supply goes south \? supply disk drive general hints would appreciated ! thanks ! mark tarbell \( j
rgc3679 bcstec ca boeing com \( robert g carpenter \) subject microwaves used collect xyz coordinates organization boeing lines 6 get info \( brochures \) differential gps systems buy \? bobc
sdc boeing com \( gerald edgar \) subject help construct home built battery 3rd grade sci report keywords 3rd grade science report distribution usa organization boeing computer services \( esp \) , seattle , wa lines 15 nntp posting host crystal making batteries could use copper zinc acid electrolyte copper copper wire \( pennies mostly zinc recall correctly \) zinc zinc strip \( hardware stores arround \( seattle \) sell prevent moss buildup roof alternative would use galvanized \( zinc coated \) nail electrolyte lemon juice acid active \( sp \) \( late 18th century scientist \) used stack batteries copper disk , paper disk soaked acid , zinc disk , copper disk , paper advanced technology time gerald edgar atc boeing com opinions expressed communication may reflect employer
st1my rosie uh edu \( stich , christian e \) subject motorola xc68882rc33 rc50 organization university houston lines 17 distribution world nntp posting host rosie uh edu keywords motorola , fpu , 68882 , 68030 , 33 50 mhz , problems \( fpu exception \) news software vax vms vnews 1 41 installed motorola xc68882rc50 fpu amiga board \( 25 mhz 68030 68882 capability clock fpu separately \) previously mc68882rc25 installed everything working perfectly systems displays yellow screen \( indicating exception \) check presence type fpu reinstall mc68882rc25 system works fine , even 25 mhz work designer board mentioned putting pullup resistor data strobe \( 470 ohm \) might help , n't change anything anybody suggestions could \? look like cpu fpu communications problem particular chip dead \( pull , new \) \? moreover , place bought sending xc68882rc33 thought labeled mc xc \( finalized mask design \) \? thanks christian
peter insane apana org au \( peter tryndoch \) subject telephone hook hok lines 17 hook hok mc mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) mc organization ai programs , university georgia , athens mc aye , 's rub draw enough current light led , th mc equipment phone company think 've gone hook mc hook state 're supposed draw current ok lets calculation going australian standards , presume might similar countries \( , lets input \) phone uses loop 48v line standard led 20ma actual loop current required hook indication , know \? cheers peter
peter insane apana org au \( peter tryndoch \) subject what's good ic lines 13 cool 's good ic tc rky57514 uxa cso uiuc edu \( tall cool one \) tc organization university illinois urbana tc i'm looking ic convert rs232 voltage levels ttl vo tc levels something relatively inexpensive would nice , anyone tc suggestion \? \? thanks try maxim 8 pin dil , converts 5v 12v clever little gizmo ! peter
peter insane apana org au \( peter tryndoch \) subject swr meter cb radios lines 28 devil meter cb radios td ssave ole cdac com \( devil reincarnate \) td organization cdac , wa td td good choice cb \? 1 4 1 8 wave \? td read installation instructions 1 4 wave antenna , td suggested use swr tune channel 12 td channel 32 minimum reading question , channel td 12 32 \? best antenna one let wave \( probably best explanation , rest makes sense \) one wave \( btw \) best 1 2 wave antenna , followed 1 4 , 1 8 etc , actually trim antenna correct length specific wavelength transmitting since wavelength varies channel use , 's recommended swr using middle channel going use anyway beginning cb 's , new antennas , manufactures trim antennas almost spot , 's much point may fanatic anyway cheers peter
peter insane apana org au \( peter tryndoch \) subject what's exactly lines 32 's exactly mm martin datacomm ucc okstate edu \( martin \) mm organization oklahoma state university , stillwater , ok mm sort lamp little glass bulb found inside starter \? mm sort reminds neon lamp starters appear open mm ohm meter little lamp either neon mm series mm mm seen things life , never read really good mm description happening inside little know bi metallic strip \? case two strips different metals bonded together , heated bend one side \( check blinker globe christmas tree lights \) turn power , causes bulb work like neon , heating shorting , thus providing loop power heaters main tube tube fires , insufficient current runs starter keep heat bi strip \( c \) btw , thought nothing small neon , one day neon sisters digital \( flip metal squares type \) clock broke \( flimsy leads \) , replaced one starter well powering made bit mess clock ! cheers peter
peter insane apana org au \( peter tryndoch \) subject dmm advice needed lines 28 advice needed bcstec ca boeing com \( martin \) organization boeing market dmm recently saw add kelvin 94 \( 199 \) anyone one brand extremely happy small name brands compare fluke beckman brands \? willing spend 200 one help greatly appreciated \( please email \) martin going use one counts \( eg aviation , space , etc \) suggest go buy fluke \( never seen beckman \) , however every use buy cheapie made name , seen dmm brand names , bought 4 yrs ago aus 125 00 \( convert us see 's definetly cheapie \) far proved accurate , taken moderate abuse , many features \( cap , freq , transistor check , etc \) happy would definetly buy fluke name hope helps cheers peter
r tim coslet cup portal com subject nuclear site 's cooling towers \? organization portal system \( tm \) distribution world lines 41 article 1qlg9o d7q sequoia ccsd uts edu au swalker uts edu au \( s87271077 walker man 50 \) wrote really n't know post question figured board would appropriate wondering massive concrete cylinders ever present nuclear poer sites look like cylinders pinched middle anybody know actual purpose things \? hear 're called 'cooling towers' heck cool \? except size , cooling towers nuclear power plants identical construction operation cooling towers designed built 1890 's \( hundred years ago \) coal fired power plants used lighting early electric basicly , cylindrical tower supports rapid air draft air heated hot water steam circulating thru network pipes fill lower 1 3 tower assist cooling draft , water added spray cold water hot pipes cold water evaporates , removing heat faster air flow draft would resulting water vapor rapidly carried away draft produces clouds frequently seen rising towers slight pinch \( maybe 2 3 way tower \) produces significant increase strength rate air draft produced , compared straight cylinder shape towers used steam sealed steam system power plant back boiler used wider temperature difference across turbines used power plant steam cooling towers sending back maintain wide temperature difference \( sometimes high 1000 degrees first stage hot turbine final stage cold turbine \) r tim coslet usenet r tim coslet cup portal com technology , n domesticated natural phenomena
mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) subject telephone hook hok nntp posting host aisun3 ai uga edu organization ai programs , university georgia , athens lines 26 article 734953838 insane apana org au peter insane apana org au \( peter tryndoch \) writes mc aye , 's rub draw enough current light led , th mc equipment phone company think 've gone hook mc hook state 're supposed draw current ok lets calculation going australian standards , presume might similar countries \( , lets input \) phone uses loop 48v line standard led 20ma actual loop current required hook indication , know \? 60 hook something like 10 hook defective line , phone company comes looking leaky insulation michael covington , associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu university georgia phone 706 542 0358 athens , georgia 30602 7415 u amateur radio n4tmi
uucp \( rob finley \) subject rams roms ale latches \( 8051 's \) organization harris allied broadcast div , quincy , il lines 22 intel also makes neat memory peripheral chips old technology \( early 1980 's \) 8155 ram plus io \( slow ram recall \) eprom plus io \( expensive slow \) intel make built address latches fear would need flexible date eprom programmer write give call able locate memory products book yet sigh , borrowed robert
haynes cats ucsc edu \( jim haynes \) subject history question organization university california santa cruz lines 30 nntp posting host hobbes ucsc edu article usenet ins cwru edu wb8foz skybridge scl cwru edu \( david lesher \) writes deceased prof told us willing students project worked wwii needed mega power pa clear audio quality purpose bellow refugees aircraft solution giant compressed air source , horn parallel shutters worked small audio system think said worked well , thus war dept cancelled project gee , got idea somewhere devices like common use wwii , commanders board ships could bellow troops landing beach , example reminds anecdote mid 60s communications conference marine corps communications officer said n't care much spread spectrum multi access expensive communication systems people talking time wanted kilowatt broadcast transmitter ship 4 95 japanese transistor radio stuck ear every marine hitting beach haynes cats ucsc edu haynes cats bitnet ya talk ya wanna , 's dif ! aint ! ya gotta know territory ! meredith willson music man
gt0869a prism gatech edu \( waters , clyde gordon \) subject history question organization georgia institute technology lines 23 article 2775 snap paj uk co gec mrc \( paul johnson \) writes vague , posting case anyone else knows recall reading phonograph used mechanical amplification compressed air squirted valve controlled pickup result noisy distinctly lo fi , much louder nasa related agencies apparently used principles create reported reproduced sound used analog electrically controlled valve control flow air across horn throat remember correctly called modulated air blast transducer reports thing able produce 106 db 80 hz 10 mile distance , communicate directly fighter pilots 5000 ft , etc regards , gordon waters , clyde gordon bme '93 georgia institute technology atlanta ga mountain despair , hew stone hope mlk jr uucp ! decvax , hplabs , ncar , purdue , rutgers ! gatech ! prism ! gt0869a internet gt0869a prism gatech edu
myers hpfcso fc hp com \( bob myers \) subject subliminal message flashing tv organization hewlett packard , fort collins , co , usa lines 18 hi research subliminal suggestion psychology paper , read one researcher flashed hidden messages tv screen 1 200ths second possible \? thought maximum rate tv even capable displaying images 1 30th second \( 1 second image composed odd even scan lines \) correct fastest complete image could presented tv would one field , 1 60 second \( approximately \) course , phrase tv screen often thrown around reference crt display , perhaps researcher n't using normal tv rates might even vector \( \) display , case lower limit image time anyone 's guess \( probably phosphor persistence limited \) bob myers kc0ew hewlett packard co opinions expressed systems technology div employer myers fc hp com fort collins , colorado sentient life form planet
myers hpfcso fc hp com \( bob myers \) subject scope questions organization hewlett packard , fort collins , co , usa lines 31 life depended , 'd say 's scope uses long persistance phosphor keep successive screen unit time store get live \? 'll let live , 's real storage scope long persistence phosphor actually , phosphor usually anything special makes storage tube work screen placed behind phosphor , becomes charged electron beam writes trace trace written screen , separate low level flood electron gun keeps image lit exciting areas phosphor next written areas storage screen problems resolution limited compared non storage tube , stored trace tends bloom time course , pretty much obsolete technology , done current digital scopes use raster scan displays keep everything frame buffer memory anyways filip 'll buy vowel gieszczykiewicz best e mail fmgst pitt edu ah , yes people brought amazing new reading program 's sweeping eastern europe hooked ! \) bob myers kc0ew hewlett packard co opinions expressed systems technology div employer myers fc hp com fort collins , colorado sentient life form planet
kolstad cae wisc edu \( joel kolstad \) subject dmm advice needed article doug 1993apr17 organization u wisconsin madison college engineering lines 14 article 734953838 insane apana org au peter insane apana org au \( peter tryndoch \) writes going use one counts \( eg aviation , space , etc \) suggest go buy fluke \( never seen beckman \) , however every use buy cheapie beckman died days ago , thanks 4 5 foot drop onto lab table ! ! ! probably indicative anything , 've already filled fluke 87 \) oh yeah , sometimes measurements count often , often enough want least one good meter ! joel kolstad
wayne alan martin andrew cmu edu subject nuclear site 's cooling towers \? organization senior , electrical computer engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 60 distribution world nntp posting host po2 andrew cmu edu reply cup portal com excerpts netnews sci electronics 16 apr 93 nuclear site 's r tim coslet cup portal r tim coslet cup portal com subject nuclear site 's cooling towers \? date fri , 16 apr 93 21 27 21 pdt article 1qlg9o d7q sequoia ccsd uts edu au swalker uts edu au \( s87271077 walker man 50 \) wrote really n't know post question figured board would appropriate wondering massive concrete cylinders ever present nuclear poer sites look like cylinders pinched middle anybody know actual purpose things \? hear 're called 'cooling towers' heck cool \? except size , cooling towers nuclear power plants identical construction operation cooling towers designed built 1890 's \( hundred years ago \) coal fired power plants used lighting early electric basicly , cylindrical tower supports rapid air draft air heated hot water steam circulating thru network pipes fill lower 1 3 tower assist cooling draft , water added spray cold water hot pipes cold water evaporates , removing heat faster air flow draft would resulting water vapor rapidly carried away draft produces clouds frequently seen rising towers slight pinch \( maybe 2 3 way tower \) produces significant increase strength rate air draft produced , compared straight cylinder shape towers used steam sealed steam system power plant back boiler used wider temperature difference across turbines used power plant steam cooling towers sending back maintain wide temperature difference \( sometimes high 1000 degrees first stage hot turbine final stage cold turbine \) r tim coslet usenet r tim coslet cup portal com technology , n domesticated natural phenomena great explaination , however left one detail , always see nuclear plants , always fossil fuel plants nuclear plants prefered run water closed cycle , whereas fossil fuel plants cases get away dumping hot water recall water n't hot \( \) many fossil fuel plants , course less danger radioactive contamination wayne martin
ua umn edu \( mike \) subject electronic odometers \( used bmw question \? \? \? \) organization university minnesota , duluth lines 28 nntp posting host ua umn edu article vu vlsi ee vill edu mobasser vu vlsi ee vill edu \( bijan mobasseri \) writes two simple procedures odometer 1 mechanical driven odometer remove speedo cable transmission attach drill run max speed speedo turns continue desired mileage reached admittedly question long drill running \? bijan long time , like order days pleasure \( playing speedo cable \) b heavy duty full speed \( 600 rpm \) speedo ever got 30 mph go high speed drill ran say 4000 rpm , could get 200 mph \( speedo n't burn \) anyways , roll mile odometer would take 22 days much easier take speedo apart thought 'd share btw , info obtained legally \) \( \) \) \) \) computer lesson one key , alternate keys \) \) shift , ctrl , caps lock , alt \( \( \( sometimes tab ub umn edu consultant lab
schmidt auvax1 adelphi edu subject grounding power wiring , question 120vac outlet wiring lines 163 nntp posting host auvax1 organization adelphi university , garden city ny quite bit discussion house wiring grounding practices points need clarified equipment grounding conductor , green , green yellow stripe , bare , metal sheath pipe wiring methods , used safety ground , carry fault currents back circuit breaker panel , limit voltage metal case utilization equipment metal objects never \( except exceptions discussed later \) carry normal operating current connected load equipment filters power supply may cause slight current flow grounding conductor much communications audio equipment sensitive noise slight voltages grounding conductor , may require special wiring grounding conductors provide reliable operation \( orange outlets often used , insulated grounding conductors wired back panel box , many cases back service anyone installing system read section grounding national electric code publications installing quiet isolated ground systems code requires insulated grounding conductors \( green wires \) run current carrying conductors back panel box , , required , back way service entrance , bonded service ground \( water pipe rod \) many systems installed illegally , provide safe ground quiet ground either grounded conductor circuit , often called neutral , referred code identified conductor supposed white natural grey conductor supposed connected ground electrical systems single point , generally service entrance panel connection main bonding jumper \( many household service panels , main bonding jumper actually bonding screw attaches neutral case panel \) grounded conductor \( neutral \) generally current carrying conductor case 120 volt circuit one two conductors completing circuit panel load device since grounded conductor \( neutral \) connected grounding conductor \( bare green \) service entrance , load distance service draws significant current , small measurable voltage grounded grounding conductors load , normal operating conditions \( incorrectly \) connect grounded \( neutral \) conductor grounding conductor load , neutral current flow instead grounding conductor since current flowing grounding conductor , also longer quite ground potential load end load equipment metal case , connected grounding conductor u ground plug , metal case also longer quite ground potential difference \( normal , non short circuit conditions \) may volt , could also volt two normally present shock hazard however , let metal case grounded equipment come contact independently grounded object water gas pipe , radiator , metal air conditioning duct , part neutral current try flow ground path contact solid , get significant arc \( low voltage , possibly moderate current arc \) wrong conditions , could start fire possible cases sneak ground current could also flow wire inadequate size , causing incorrect non single point grounding neutral , short circuit hot neutral , high short circuit current may flow cause much higher voltage grounding conductor , increases possibility shock fire also incorrectly multiply connect neutral ground , voltage ground system seen noise bu computer audio equipment , often causing malfunction spent hours tracking shorts technical facilities severe hum equipment neutral usually bonded ground distribution transformer well service entrance dwelling done primarily lightning protection , induced lightning currents short path back ground , also assure currents drawn shorts grounded objects like pipes draw enough current trip circuit breakers blow fuses quickly bad side neutral current dwelling goes neutral wire back transformer flows grounding electrode \( water pipe , etc \) may cause corrosion pipes possibly things like underground fuel oil tanks , may also cause measurable ac magnetic fields due large loop hot conductors service neutral current water pipe ground feel fields may unhealthy \( n't flame , i'm telling field comes , 's health effect , far i'm concerned , jury still \) note bonding jumper installed main panel , sub distribution panels one reason illegal run service entrance cable sheath used neutral sub panel , must seperate insulated conductor neutral sheath used application grounding conductor neutral bonded grounding conductor sub panel , say forgetting remove bonding screw , grounding conductors loads panel ground , possible problems listed code makes exceptions ranges , well feeds one building another cases range dryer , neutral may used equipment ground certain conditions , instead seperate wire every time code revised , exceptions come review exceptions , fact first required safety grounds , days u ground outlets appliance manufacturers n't want redesign ranges , contractors n't want run four wire cable \( four fairly heavy , expensive wires \) place three wire appliances question would safer seperate stove , neutral current low burner settings \( since current 220 volt hots except low settings , wires large gauge , reported cases injury damage far , exceptions survived case feeds buildings , 's primarily lightning protection people wiring aware n't legal grounding conductor obviously , bare wire romex anywhere green wire installed , portable cord , good grounding conductor sheath bx bx connectors metal boxes legal grounding conductor \( us \) \( bx aluminum band run steel sheath lower resistance sheath cut aluminum band ends , n't bond anything , job touching every turn bx sheath \) conduit emt \( tubing \) generally legal grounding conductor , may require bonding enters box panel , particularly larger pipes greenfield \( looks like big bx , pull wires empty sheath run \) legal grounding conductor , n't aluminum band bond , spiral steel much resistance inductance run seperate green grounding conductor inside greenfield wiremold also legal grounding conductor , paint boxes often prevents good contact , feed wiremold extension often box wall may well connected first wiremold box personally discovered cases entire run wiremold cases everything plugged outlets run hot 120 volts \( get shock every time touch computer radiator office \? \) ground wire wiremold one outlets shorted edge wiremold box must run ground wire back wiremold outlets least first box original wiring \( conduit , bx , etc \) bond wire box screw , clip , whatever another issue , ground green wire lug outlets ever place ground , legal nec use without ground ground available better protection ground fault interrupter protection n't install interrupter n't depend ground trip desirable connect ground available , ground connected , interrupter trip soon faulty device plugged , whereas without ground , trip someone something provides ground path questioning legal use ungrounded 's , read nec , 210 7 \( \) exception \( 1990 code , '93 code city , know rule n't changed might though \) touched surface concerning grounding , much subject , fallen asleep john john h schmidt , p e internet schmidt auvax1 adelphi edu technical director , phone days \( 212 \) 456 adelphi university evenings \( 516 \) 877 6400 garden city , new york fax \( 212 \) 456
hou amoco com \( \) subject old 256k simms \? organization amoco production lines 21 article sunb ocs mq edu au johnh macadam mpce mq edu au \( john haddy \) writes article 120466 netnews upenn edu , jhaines eniac seas upenn edu \( jason haines \) writes wondering people good uses old 256k simms bunch apple mac know lots people tried sell gotten interest , inovative use \( want buy simms 8 \) \) , would interested hearing practical use 've seen key ring ornaments \) johnh used bunch weights , building model airplane hung , across , whatever worked pretty well kelly
tchannon black demon co uk \( tim \) subject use analog multiplexer digital signal reply tchannon black demon co uk distribution world x mailer revision 1 20 organization null lines 19 subject says use digital signals \? n't see could n't handle digital signals , could wrong anyone advice \? thanks yes use others purpose rest assured works fine one case route bit serial digital audio using difficult see signal degradation surprised given pretty fast edges spec 'd something like 50 ohms complex types generally little slower resistive plain 4000 series good handling 5v logic remember output load seen input device tc e mail tchannon black demon co uk tchannon cix compulink co uk
mpaul unl edu \( marxhausen paul \) subject whats wrong \? organization university nebraska lincoln lines 8 distribution world nntp posting host unlinfo unl edu 've also found electronic starters instant compact lamp fixtures kick interference nukes cordless phone \( hear guitar amplifier , \) paul marxhausen university nebraska lincoln grace happens
selway umt edu \( richard warner \) subject uart cpu rom ram subsystem keywords cheap , low cost , small organization university montana lines 21 followup post something 've written previously several people responded good information , n't think communicated exactly looking i'm working custom device communicate host via rs 232 custom circuitry use ec cpu require 64k ram \( preferably flash ram \) looking around , see lots people engineered uart cpu rom ram subsystems ready interfaced custom devices 's done much , would best avoid reinventing system needs use \( 188 \) cpu , able load program host transfer control program well , 's one thing rom needs know routines send receive bytes host , utilize hardware control lines \( dtr , rts , dts , cts \) everything 've seen 200 00 range 's much application need something around 100 00 cpu uart built , 're looking chips anyone know company markets good board range , public domain circuitry use \? thanks advance info rich
spartan ac brocku ca \( ian mcpherson \) subject chip chipset code 39 barcode \? organization brock university , st catharines ontario x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 26 dp utexas edu wrote distribution usa reply lihan ccwf cc utexas edu i'm net bugging everyone , thing chip chipset decode code 39 barcode \? ask couple reasons mainly want reasonably compact encoding scheme write information magstripe cards code 39 appears right \( 'right' way something else , 's reasonably easy , someone let know \? \) might get chance reply quickly earlier post , 'll get within couple days , think thanx everyone ! bgb lihan ccwf cc utexas edu hewlett packard series barcode decoder ics 1800 , 2000 , 2010 support extended interleaved codes 2000 2010 pieces add code 128 chips support hp 's barcode slot readers 1800 run 150 cdn ian
rbn apple com \( robert b \) subject sale organization apple computer , inc , cupertino , california lines 37 nntp posting host apple com recently posted two sale one sold , still available used , good condition hitachi v 422 40mhz dual channel portable analog div dc offset alternate \( 10x magnified non magnified waveform \) vert mode trigger tv sync separation circuit list price 910 00 \( price fry 's electronics quoted ! \) \( sells 699 99 \( jdr current price \) 745 95 \( products international \) price used 425 00 obo n't gotten offer asking price , applies also version scope sold jdr 2000 20mhz dual channel portable analog div component tester \( resistors caps diodes coils \) tv video sync filter z axis input \( intensity modulation \) means crt produces nice , bright trace , trace correspond input signal guess 's simple calibration problem honestly tried calibrate scope otherwise fix 's 'as paid 60 current state \( bought thinking 'd repair , using 'good' scope side side comparison since 've sold 'good' scope , one n't much good \) 'd like amount , 'll accept offers take best one 'd prefer local \( bay area , california \) buyer , \( \) n't ship \( b \) examine scope prior purchase rbn apple com
nagle netcom com \( john nagle \) subject nuclear site 's cooling towers \? organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 42 wayne alan martin andrew cmu edu writes excerpts netnews sci electronics 16 apr 93 nuclear site 's r tim coslet cup portal r tim coslet cup portal com subject nuclear site 's cooling towers \? date fri , 16 apr 93 21 27 21 pdt article 1qlg9o d7q sequoia ccsd uts edu au swalker uts edu au \( s87271077 walker man 50 \) wrote really n't know post question figured board would appropriate wondering massive concrete cylinders ever present nuclear poer sites look like cylinders pinched middle anybody know actual purpose things \? hear 're called 'cooling towers' heck cool \? great explaination , however left one detail , always see nuclear plants , always fossil fuel plants nuclear plants prefered run water closed cycle , whereas fossil fuel plants cases get away dumping hot water recall water n't hot \( \) many fossil fuel plants , course less danger radioactive contamination actually , fossil fuel plants run hotter usual boiling water reactor nuclear plants \( 's gripe industry nuclear power uses 1900 vintage steam technology \) 's important nuclear plants get cold end system cold possible hence big cooling towers oil gas fired steam plants also condensers , usually sized get steam back hot water , way ambient plants cool condensers water , rather air one canadian official , asked thermal pollution de icing river , said , , view heat resource everybody runs closed cycle water used solids , otherwise crud boiler plumbing water boils water boiler use bigger job cooling , boiler water recycled john nagle
sundar fiber one ai mit edu \( sundar \) subject much would tektronix oscilloscope fetch reply sundar ai mit edu organization mit artificial intelligence laboratory lines 7 nntp posting host fiber one ai mit edu hi 'd like know much equipment fetch used equipment market \( without manuals accessories \) 1 tektronix scope 2 tektronix scope 3 tektronix logic thanks much help
rubin cis ohio state edu \( daniel j rubin \) subject old 256k simms \? organization ohio state university dept computer info science lines 18 nntp posting host cis ohio state edu wondering people good uses old 256k simms bunch apple mac know lots people tried sell gotten interest hard would somehow interface popular motorola microcontrollers novice microcontrollers , starting get projects several 256k simms laying around upgraded macs could use free memory one two projects would great one project comes mind caller id device would require quite bit ram store several hundered cid records etc dan daniel joseph rubin rubin cis ohio state edu go ! go bucks !
vela acs oakland edu \( ed byrnes \) subject getting rid screen \? organization oakland university , rochester mi lines 15 distribution world nntp posting host vela acs oakland edu monitor display bad case good ground live old house replaced much wiring two emi filters computer , monitor plugs computer fluorescent lights upstairs , display jiggles , motors run house , display jiggles , incandescent lights kitchen display jiggles could bring separate line breaker box , use computer , would \? emi n't travel 110 volt line though shield back monitor \? ground grid plate \? expertise appreciated thanks much ! ed byrnes ed byrnes fax 313 651 vela acs oakland edu kensington academy oakland university rochester , mi north america
al qiclab scn rain com \( alan peterman \) subject fluke sale \( dmm advice needed \) keywords fluke 115 article qiclab 1993apr17 1992 organization scn research qic laboratories tigard , oregon lines 13 spare fluke true rms digital meter 4 5 digit display 's average condition \( used \) works fine fluke 's btw according fellow designed meters , converted function clipping jumper , adding 2 extra switches like said 115 seems fair sell 300 new alan l peterman \( 503 \) 684 1984 hm work al qiclab scn rain com 's odd get older , days longer , years shorter !
mcole spock \( cole \) subject 8051 microcontroller organization new mexico state university lines 3 nntp posting host spock nmsu edu would like experiment intel 8051 family anyone know good ftp sites might , assemblers , etc \?
aber ac uk \( christopher john powell \) subject fujitsu 8 hdd keywords , , fujitsu , \( organization university wales , aberystwyth lines 23 fujitsu removed \( believe \) digital x ray machine \( takes x ray pictures without film \) fujitsu part number obtained data device , 8 inch winchester type 168 megabyte capacity \( though told 800 megabytes \) however , little information interface standard used appears use two balanced line connections , connection corresponds know one connection 30 way idc , 60 way idc anyone information device , would grateful could provide thanks chris powell man janet uk ac aber internet aber ac uk nyx nyx cs du edu
billq ms uky edu \( billy quinn \) subject radio shack battery month club organization university kentucky , dept math sciences lines 18 donrm sr hp com \( montgomery \) writes radio shack canceled battery month club anyone know \? say 'll honor existing cards customer hands , new cards issued told environmental based move also told else replace battery club like maybe 360k floppy club \) 'll see bill quinn billq ms uky edu
iisakkil gamma hut fi \( mika iisakkila \) subject old 256k simms \? reply rubin cis ohio state edu 's message 17 apr 1993 14 05 06 0400 nntp posting host gamma hut fi organization helsinki university technology , finland cis ohio state edu lines 15 rubin cis ohio state edu \( daniel j rubin \) writes hard would somehow interface popular motorola microcontrollers hard , refreshing access cycles software , hogs available cpu cycles low end controller 've seen application note philips used one 8051 derivatives printer buffer , 1mb dynamic ram accessed refreshed software bit banging another alternative would use one nice dram controller chips create static ram appearance , may expensive make worthwhile segmented memory helps structure software
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject public domain circuits commercial applications organization u toronto zoology lines 31 article 1993apr13 wuecl wustl edu dp cec1 wustl edu \( david prutchi \) writes circuits found electronics magazines \( patent disclaimer \) used legally commercial unit \? two issues copyright patent magazine article 's contents copyrighted , may reproduced , translated , etc , without copyright holder 's permission however , cover ideas expressed , form expression copying circuit diagram pc board pattern copyright infringement 's unlikely could stretch copyright far enough claim circuit design copyrighted long draw diagrams lay boards , copyright n't issue patents different author give warning design covered patent \( although would sensible \) fact , 's possible infringing someone else 's patent without realizing ignorance patented status defence infringement , although might reduce damages court would award however unless something seriously novel circuit , almost certainly obvious one skilled art therefore routine engineering patents \( theory \) cover inventions , ideas genuinely new caution lawyer consulting professional would wise significant amounts money stake work one man 's work henry spencer u toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject public domain circuits commercial applications organization u toronto zoology lines 16 article athena cs uga edu mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) writes patent law says build anything want , personal noncommercial use i'm details us patent law , think incorrect reasonable use exemption copyright none patents exemptions patent licensing quite narrow r work exempt personal use , 's okay experiment patented idea , put practical use \( e g improve stereo \) , even 's private practical use course , unlikely personal use ever detected ever sued work one man 's work henry spencer u toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
norfolk vak12ed edu \( fred w \) subject cad program electronics \? organization virginia 's public education network \( norfolk \) lines 19 making search cad program decent job making schematic drawings program needs ms dos , windows possible want cad program draw diagrams dragging elements onto screen , elements needed diverse vacuum tubes ics \( case pins \) also needs provision adding legends components well values words want produce quality drawings printout would either 24 pin dot matrix laser printer know cad program reasonable cost , please respond fred w old dominion university \( retired \) norfolk vak12ed edu
iastate edu \( \) subject 2sc1096 , 2sa634 specs \? organization iowa state university , ames ia lines 35 could kind soul post max power voltage current ratings 2sc1096 2sa634 transistors , conductance types pinouts used sweep portion tv set 2sc1096 maximum ratings 40v 30v ic 3a pc 10w \( \) max 30v q point vce 5 , ic 1a hfe 100 2sa634 maximum ratings 40v 30v ic 3a pc 10w \( \) max 30v q point vce 5v , ic 1a hfe 100 's get data book , hope helps iastate edu
ulan ee ualberta ca \( dale ulan \) subject old 256k simms \? nntp posting host ee ualberta ca organization university alberta , edmonton canada lines 28 rubin cis ohio state edu \( daniel j rubin \) writes hard would somehow interface popular motorola microcontrollers novice microcontrollers , starting get projects several 256k simms laying around upgraded macs could use free memory one two projects would great one project comes mind caller id device would require quite bit ram store several hundered cid records etc assuming expanded mode , could much easier get dram controller ic mmi could used implement , could use counter huge multiplexer provide row column refresh address multiplexing thing require wierd timing , address multiplexing , refresh actually , wanted use ic , could look , neat controller built also , think one dram controller built one dram , however , one address line , adding another component 256k simms basically 8 9 dram chips \( equivalent fewer packages \) done , takes bit logic design i'm actually using chip 've got 8 256k simms 's 2 megabytes apple e \( used \)
dannyb panix com \( daniel burstein \) subject nuclear site 's cooling towers \? organization panix public access unix , nyc lines 27 lots pretty good stuff huge towers near nuclear power plants cool used steam back near ambient temperature water deleted water recall water n't hot \( \) many fossil fuel plants , course less danger radioactive contamination actually , fossil fuel plants run hotter usual boiling water reactor nuclear plants \( 's gripe industry nuclear power uses 1900 vintage steam technology \) 's important nuclear plants get cold end system cold possible hence big cooling towers point info , early nuclear power plants country used fission pile first stage get water hot , second stage fossil fuel step get water \( actually steam \) hot remember seeing con edison 's indian point 1 power plant , 30 miles north nyc , built less 1958 dannyb panix com \( usual disclaimers apply , whatever may \)
mustafa seas smu edu \( mustafa \) subject starters work really keywords fluorescent bulb starter neon nntp posting host turbo f seas smu edu organization smu school engineering applied science dallas lines 28 article 734953838 insane apana org au peter insane apana org au \( peter tryndoch \) writes turn power , causes bulb work like neon , heating shorting , thus providing loop power heaters main tube tube fires , insufficient current runs starter keep heat bi strip \( c \) imprecise description 1 ignores role ballast , 2 heating effects starter strip cools immediately contacts short circuit , neon discharge stops , much less heat generated 2r loss metal compared neon discharge starter contacts open tube fires actually , tube fires result back emf generated ballast immediate opening starter 's contacts capacitor connected parallel contacts prevent excessive firing neon draw sufficient current prevent firing tube mustafa mustafa seas smu edu ee dept , room , bldg home 214 706 office 214 768 smu box , dallas , tx
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject \? \? \? organization u toronto zoology lines 86 article crcnis1 unl edu mpaul unl edu \( marxhausen paul \) writes ok , 's quick 7400 series variations \? 're repairing something question arises , well , really need act part \? flipping digi key see als , , c , hc , ac , , act , , , 's something posted years ago 's fully date new variations \( different manufacturer 's \) practical terms , ignoring technological details , view families \( nb giant corporation , influences views things like availability backward compatibility \) 74 original speed good , power consumption fair effectively obsolete use 74ls later , except oddball functions like hard find newer families modification 74 higher speed , cost higher power consumption obsolete use 74f modification 74 lower power , cost lower speed obsolete use cmos later modification 74 even higher speed , cost power consumption effectively obsolete use 74f 74ls combination , speed comparable 74 lower power consumption best round ttl , widest variety devices 74f fast blazes , power bad clear choice high speed ttl availability prices generally good failed competitor 74f , although parts things hard find 74f thus still useful possible replacement 74ls generally still fairly new , availability prices possibly problem 74c fairly old family , cmos devices ttl pinouts 4000 series , successfully obsolete use 4000 newer cmos 74 families 4000 \( thrown major non 74 non ecl logic family \) old cmos family , still viable wide range devices , low power consumption , wide range supply voltages fast forgiving easy work \( beware static electricity , comment applies many modern logic families \) neat devices family exist clear choice speed important 74hc new attempt 74 pinout cmos fast compared old cmos , power consumption often lower ttl possibly good choice general purpose logic , assuming availability cmos logic levels , ttl ones beware limited range supply voltages compared older cmos , also major rise power consumption faster speeds 74hc ttl logic levels much comments 74hc read fine print things like power consumption ttl compatibility cmos involves compromises 10k \( thrown speed freaks \) low end ecl various sources claim easier work super fast ttl serious high speed work less forgiving , though read follow rules wo n't work availability hobbyists limited , expensive 100k \( real speed freaks \) hot ecl harder handle 10k , inconvenient packages much useful , however compatibility families 74 families \( except 74c 74hc \) less logic level compatible , many 74x devices drive one output varies enormously x read specs arithmetic 74c 74hc compatible others bit hassle 4000 compatibility bit hassle lot hassle depending supply voltage 4000 using 10k 100k anything else considerable hassle \? use 4000 74ls 74f 74hc 10k interesting n't used either significantly yet work one man 's work henry spencer u toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
jgd dixie com \( john de armond \) subject nuclear site 's cooling towers \? organization dixie communications public access mouth south keywords nuclear lines 33 swalker uts edu au \( s87271077 walker man 50 \) writes wondering massive concrete cylinders ever present nuclear poer sites look like cylinders pinched middle anybody know actual purpose things \? hear 're called 'cooling towers' heck cool \? hope someone help actual hollow designed generate draft , exploiting effect around base ring water towers warm river water , coming steam condenser plant , sprayed draft pulled tower cools water sensible heat extracted cooling water driving force draft generation noted shaped cooling towers used nuclear plants also noted locations water plentiful , cooling towers used part time , discharge temperature would exceed release limit thought warm discharge water damaging fish fishermen know thoroughly incorrect , stringent , usually state , regulations remain instances since typically takes 60 , 000 hp worth pumping move volume water needed cool 1000 plant , cost using towers insignificant john de armond , wd4oqc interested high performance mobility \? performance engineering magazine \( tm \) interested high tech computers \? marietta , ga send ur snail mail address jgd dixie com perform dixie com free sample mag lee harvey oswald ya need ya \?
victor inqmind bison mb ca \( victor laking \) subject making copy video tape keywords video organization inquiring mind bbs 1 204 488 1607 lines 35 spot colorado edu \( wayne hooper \) writes victor inqmind bison mb ca \( victor laking \) writes experiencing called macrovision protection use video tapes two ways around know first , try using different vcr copy onto input vcr reacts protection sometimes switching two vcrs around take care models n't react also affect viewing tapes \? problems couple rented tapes virtually fiddled tuning , tracking vertical hold good sounds like tv one ones also reacts video protection \( poor ! \) radio electronics removes protection sould n't problems however , use method copying one vcr another second vcr n't react protection , end duplicate tape , including protection one thought comes mind problem playing tape viewing , feeding signal source vcr extra device going tv \? feed second vcr first , problem devices converters , n't know would react safe , might want make sure nothing vcr tv victor inqmind bison mb ca inquiring mind bbs , winnipeg , manitoba 204 488 1607
cyberman toz buffalo ny us \( cyberman \) subject crt driver transistors lines 28 x maildoor waflinemail 1 00r device ic \( \) 50 v \( br \) ceo \( v \) 70 \( pf \) 2 5 v \( br \) cbo \( v \) 120 vce \( v \) 15 ic \( \) max 300 polarity hfe min 20 package 79 04 hfe max 60 material metal ft \( ghz \) 1 price \( 100 \) device ic \( \) 60 v \( br \) ceo \( v \) 65 \( pf \) 1 5 v \( br \) cbo \( v \) 80 vce \( v \) 10 ic \( \) max 300 polarity hfe min 15 package 79 04 hfe max 60 material metal ft \( ghz \) 1 5 price \( 100 \) vce \( v \) 10 anyone know source parts \( straight \) \? need 4 's 2 've tried standard said ! stephen cyberman toz buffalo ny us mangled fri 04 16 1993 13 50 28 's one thing ca n't stand , 's intolerance blue wave qwk v2 12
cyberman toz buffalo ny us \( cyberman \) subject analog switches lines 31 x maildoor waflinemail 1 00r michael fulbright said analog switches balanced 04 15 93 01 08 mf trying build synchronous demodulator 've hit snag mf application want able change gain mf op amp amplifier 1 1 , via digital input mf obvious way 've come use analog switches mf adjust gain op amp analog switch mf experience 4066 unfortunately want switch mf ac signal goes 5v 5v , 4066 mf positive signals using seperate ground analog outputs would get 3 bits mf another part caught eye analog devices mf balanced demodulator appears fill exactly need mf data sheet somewhat application notes could mf someone comment using chip following application \? convertor \? stephen cyberman toz buffalo ny us mangled fri 04 16 1993 13 36 11 catch blue wave ! blue wave qwk v2 12
v064mb9k ubvmsd cc buffalo edu \( neil b gandler \) subject need diode model pspice organization university buffalo lines 15 news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host ubvmsd cc buffalo edu im designing circuit silicon diode dont need modify parameters problem accept following statement model diode pspice book terrible would appreciate help neil gandler gandler electronics home automation electronic design technology
mlee eng sdsu edu \( mike lee \) subject wire table needed organization san diego state university computing services lines 5 nntp posting host eng sdsu edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 anyone table size wire amount current carry probably 1 range friend interested converting mazda electric car needed information estimation thanks advance p info electric greatly
gsulliva enuxha eas asu edu \( glenn sullivan \) subject making copy video tape summary go video organization arizona state university lines 14 article cup hp com , pi cup hp com \( paul \) writes think go video dual cassette machines direct tape tape copy transfers macrovision copy find one , would worth try go video machines used mode copy even macrovision go video phone number \( 602 \) 998 3400 ask sales department since state arizona go daylight savings time , effectively pacific time zone allen sullivan designing various stuff go video
wb8foz skybridge scl cwru edu \( david lesher \) subject nuclear site 's cooling towers \? organization nrk clinic habitual netnews abusers beltway annex lines 19 reply wb8foz skybridge scl cwru edu \( david lesher \) nntp posting host skybridge scl cwru edu others said actually , fossil fuel plants run hotter usual boiling water reactor nuclear plants \( 's gripe industry nuclear power uses 1900 vintage steam technology \) 's important nuclear plants get cold end system cold possible hence big cooling towers utility gave , oh plant \( zimmer \? \) announced going convert coal fired scheme , turbines already place , low temp type plan install second set high temp turbines , feed low temp ones output new ones never saw anything ever really build \? host host coast coast wb8foz skybridge scl cwru edu one talk host 's close \( 301 \) 56 linux unless host \( n't close \) pob 1433 busy , hung dead 20915 1433
wb8foz skybridge scl cwru edu \( david lesher \) subject \? \? \? organization nrk clinic habitual netnews abusers beltway annex lines 29 reply wb8foz skybridge scl cwru edu \( david lesher \) nntp posting host skybridge scl cwru edu others said later modification 74 even higher speed , cost power consumption effectively obsolete use 74f 74ls combination , speed comparable 74 lower power consumption best round ttl , widest variety devices 74f fast blazes , power bad clear choice high speed ttl availability prices generally good hate disagree w fellow smart henry , years back , worked project using lots high speed stuff \( part slow parallel , whew \) mild mannered designer working fast \( serial \) stuff swore 74f time harry reams ttl one ultra tiny power line glitch , one , one across board , bang f counted times swore would count even without 5 volt supply guess f stood would anything push work around avoid using f n't think 'd consider using f replace unless consequences fully understood host host coast coast wb8foz skybridge scl cwru edu one talk host 's close \( 301 \) 56 linux unless host \( n't close \) pob 1433 busy , hung dead 20915 1433
cleveland freenet edu \( john daniels \) subject help ! apple ii expansion chassis mountain computer organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 25 nntp posting host slc10 ins cwru edu recently bought apparantly complete expansion chassis mountain computer inc consists box 8 apple compatible slots , brick , interface card ribbon cable attach computer expanded also included small card empty sockets top pins bottom looks like would plug motherboard somewhere pulling chip 's empty socket also interface card short 16 pin dip jumper like ones used language cards technological marvel came docs n't clue hook thing anyone docs users disk sort could really use copies least help need know orient ribbon cable card chassis attach short cable motherboard card small card used purposes various jumper pins card \( cms scsi card ! \) thanks john daniels cleveland freenet edu
surfer world std com \( internet surfer \) subject 6551 compatibility organization boston computer society lines 10 one know 6551 timing pin compatible 6551 seems 6551 bug cts rts handshaking need suitable pin replacement put serial card possibly buffered version perhaps \? jolt gnu ai mit edu impossible , improbable pro angmar uucp \( zaphod \) cleveland freenet edu amsat org \( ham grand \)
griffin camelot bradley edu \( mark valentine \) subject help 20ma current loop rs232 converter needed summary need device convert 20ma current loop rs232 keywords 20 , current , loop , converter , rs232 nntp posting host camelot bradley edu organization bradley university distribution usa lines 10 buy build device convert 20 current loop signals rs232 voltages \? know old terminals came option , none ones anyway , want connect computer old industrial computer use computer communications software console instead old please e mail info would point right direction
chris alien de \( christian \) distribution world organization chaos live subject nuclear site 's cooling towers \? reply chris alien de x software hermes gus 1 10 rev mar 3 1993 mime version 1 0 content type text plain charset us ascii content transfer encoding 7bit lines 82 vcd hp com , john eaton writes nuclear fission reaction uranium fuel get hot enough melt happens liquid uranium pumped cooling tower sprayed air contact cool outside air condense mist fall back cooling tower floor collected cleaning crew using shop reformed pellets reactor use next day cooling towers lot taller really need power companies forced make tall enviromental law requires raw uranium held 1 law attack lawyers arguing 1 measured edge property rather edge cooling tower eliminating law save power companies thousands dollars concrete costs new nukes john eaton ! hp vcd ! johne think posted article 15 days late \) \) april 1st n't like nuclear think 's fair tell ok \? let try explain tower used 1st even nuclear simple steam engine boiler rest still verry verry conventional 've already visited seen cooling towers look good book 'll find chapter process describes get energy temperature difference ! reason cooling towers ! ! ! get energy 've temperature gradient means steam one side need cool steam 'till get water side want get aprox 30 energy \( better uranium \) brought water let boil hot steam one cold steam side 'll loose much energy cool steam get least 30 energy give cooling towers cooling steam ! vapor 'll see steam main core circulation , steam radioactive ! circulation divided least 2 circuits connected heat prevent radioactive pollution environment ! 2nd ok , main core hot , even reactors \( \) run 800 deg celsius still verry far away melting point somewhere around 2000 deg celsius ! 'll lot 's problems boiler 's steel 's temperature metal attacked steam corrode verry fast 's new cooled reactors temperatures 1200 deg celsius experimental 3rd personaly think nuclear waste low ever possible dose get accumulate years today 1 mrem next year 0 5 mrem wo n't 0 75 mrem even 80 years 'll still 1 5 mrem i'm interested glowing night getting children 2 heads point view 0 02 ! christian student electronic sciences christian , 2 , w , germany voice 49 fax email 49 pgp begin 777 pub q \( h ea ox ! sy \( 6 \( k \? vh u 7g mf , 89 w 9m ! q `` end
adykes jpr com \( al dykes \) subject help reduce rpms boxer fan \? organization unix nyc distribution na lines 16 need reduce speed boxer fan 30 50 recall reading somewhere right capacitor series n't case brain fade , someone suggest cap value \? specifics 's real boxer fan \( tm \) label says 115 v , 2 amps al dykes adykes jpr com
baden sys6626 bison mb ca \( baden de bari \) subject board organization system 6626 bbs , winnipeg manitoba canada lines 21 board 've got , i'm using lines measures voltages properly , ie 7v power supply reg 's 7v 5v , reg 's 5v problem 've got input voltage , wish lower via resistor sensitivity board great holding 5 7v wire one hand , touch probe register full input voltage 1m resistor lowers voltage 1v could problems else could use lower input voltage \? \( btw 've got grounded correctly \) inspiration comes baden sys6626 bison mb ca \( \) baden inqmind bison mb ca seek baden de bari unknown
alee ecs umass edu subject need find number phone line lines 13 greetings ! situation phone jack mounted wall n't know number line n't want call operator place trace question certain device use find number line \? thanks response al
scraps uucp \( frank holden ka3uww \) subject 's good ic rs232 ttl signals \? \? organization none lines 34 news cso uiuc edu rky57514 uxa cso uiuc edu \( tall cool one \) writes i'm looking ic convert rs232 voltage levels ttl voltage levels something relatively inexpensive would nice , anyone suggestion \? \? thanks well looks digi key sells chip number want selling 3 50 hope helps frank customer asked 's thing \? answered chuckling well , 's highly technical , sensitive instrument use computer repair ! layman , probably n't grasp exactly call b f h frank w holden ka3uww radio doctor snailmail inter net 685 addison st scraps pittsburgh sgi com washington , pa packet ka3uww pa usa na disclaimer disclaimer h confess , ! ! ! customer asked 's thing \? answered chuckling well , 's highly technical , sensitive
ulan ee ualberta ca \( dale ulan \) subject need find number phone line nntp posting host ee ualberta ca organization university alberta , edmonton canada lines 21 alee ecs umass edu writes greetings ! situation phone jack mounted wall n't know number line n't want call operator place trace question certain device use find number line \? thanks response al usually way , however , often , telephone companies like keep internal numbers private depends exchange modern electronic switching equipment usually voice synth lines echo number called line service guys use make sure connect right pairs lines
bryan philips oz au \( bryan ryan \) organization philips public telecommunications systems , melbourne , australia subject rams roms ale latches \( 8051 's \) lines 28 spp zabriskie berkeley edu \( steve pope \) writes article ucnv edu au jeff redgum ucnv edu au \( j \) writes hello , asked year ago , still looking getting sick use jeff , use damned 373 sure , oddball memory chips , really want use \? sorry i'm design circuit using reasonably available parts , move important problems 're looking series chips , series mega address decoding logic , various rom sizes \( upto \) , various ram sizes \( upto 16 k \) , 19 ports chip select lines , buffered address lines cute chip , 44 pin plcc package second may problem though \( bryan ryan , melbourne , australia bryan philips oz au
cyberman toz buffalo ny us \( cyberman \) subject old 2 lines 33 x maildoor waflinemail 1 00r jason haines said old 256k 04 15 93 04 38 jh wondering people good uses old jh 256k simms bunch apple mac jh know lots people tried jh sell gotten interest collecting together \( ie everyones \) selling lot \? thing give jh , inovative use \( want buy jh simms 8 \) \) , would interested hearing jh free send real cheap ! would intrested hehehe 2 chip 8 chip devices speed \? jh seen ram disc storage devices jh pricey \( plus still little worried data jh stored ram \) \? use ram disk \? \) stephen cyberman toz buffalo ny us mangled fri 04 16 1993 19 58 29 n't need ! blue wave qwk v2 12
cyberman toz buffalo ny us \( cyberman \) subject old 2 lines 19 x maildoor waflinemail 1 00r kris gleason said old 2 04 15 93 11 02 kg yeah seen 64k simms silver kg attached , big seller computer store i'm kg sure could find bunch geeks h h h h h h computer kg science majors around would buy 10 maybe kg 15 , 're lucky untrue would check jdr first say 5 's much worth guess worth 1 buck peice stephen cyberman toz buffalo ny us mangled sat 04 17 1993 20 26 37 tagline duplicate tagline duplicate blue wave qwk v2 12
thompson cactus org \( charles thompson \) subject differential mode gps work \? \? \? organization capital area central texas unix society , austin , tx lines 15 understand new gps boxes option known differential ready apparently land based beacons gps correction information gps receiver \( differential option installed \) system work \? frequency used land based beacons \? thanks advance , charlie thompson
ski wpi wpi edu \( joseph mich \) subject need find number phone line organization worcester polytechnic institute lines 4 nntp posting host wpi wpi edu texas \( well , corpus christi anyway \) pick phone dial 890 phone company read back number try might work
gfx engga uwo ca \( richard cook \) subject need find number phone line organization university western ontario , london nntp posting host server gfx engga uwo ca lines 23 article 20756 2bd16dea ecs umass edu alee ecs umass edu writes greetings ! situation phone jack mounted wall n't know number line n't want call operator place trace question certain device use find number line \? thanks response al calling someone caller id service call back number \? richard cook \( 519 \) 641 1985 e mail gfx engga uwo ca elect eng fax \( 519 \) 661
markz ssc com \( mark zenier \) subject use analog multiplexer digital signals \? organization ssc , inc , seattle , wa x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 13 tall cool one \( rky57514 uxa cso uiuc edu \) wrote subject says use digital signals \? n't see could n't handle digital signals , could wrong anyone advice \? thanks switches non resistance \( 1k ohm powered 5 volts \) maximum current maximum static voltage across switch good bet ttl work cmos , slow things bit 74hc versions better specs lower max voltage mark zenier markz ssc wa com markz ssc com
markz ssc com \( mark zenier \) subject illusion organization ssc , inc , seattle , wa x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 22 chris best \( cab col hp com \) wrote new idea least 10 years ago got little gadget keyboard back 8 led 's vertical row front long handle wave air writes message typed keyboard air news fact 's got idea , since neat item made , believe , modeled space saber light sword something likewise theme addition using motor continuous display , polar effects addition character graphics protected chance one kick ten years ago right , since built mine '84 '85 's even older remember seeing description garage operation selling early computer san francisco 5 years mark zenier markz ssc wa com markz ssc com
dnewman lynx dac northeastern edu \( david f newman \) subject voltage regulator spec needed ! ! ! ! ! organization division academic computing , northeastern university , boston , 02115 usa lines 13 hi , mac 512 burned part looks like voltage regulator part number bu 406 believe sgs thomas judging teh sgs logo printed package anyone teh spec part would greatly appreciate email import info find replacement thanx advance dave dnewman lynx northeastern edu btw n't need people telling throw computer away money thing would trash second , make good terminal nothing else
huey udel edu \( john berryhill , ph \) subject nuclear site 's cooling towers \? nntp posting host huey udel edu organization little scraps paper , mostly lines 13 object cooling tower distribute dissolved cooling water large areas therefore decrease farm subsidies non producers rendering land side effect deficit reduction program provide low reservoir variety industrial processes know john berryhill
unixg ubc ca \( john gilbert \) subject exploding tv ! organization university british columbia lines 4 distribution usa nntp posting host unixg ubc ca possible interest subject understanding exploding major cause domestic accidents soviet union past years !
jeh cmkrnl com subject question 120vac outlet wiring distribution world organization kernel mode systems , san diego , ca lines 35 article sdl warren mentorg com , garyg warren mentorg com \( gary gendel \) writes article cmkrnl com , jeh cmkrnl com writes want three prong outlets without additional wiring use gfci outlet \( breaker , outlet cheaper \) fact , depending putting new outlet \( \) , gfci may required still need supply proper ground ground fault circuit interrupter ! according nec cec , explained electrical wiring faq , posted separately note material headings subject convert two prong receptacles three prong \? subject sure gfcis ungrounded outlets \? test button work \? course , said local codes may vary still part job , however , ground may connected local earth ground , rather back breaker box i'm sure ground connections outlets connected anything , connected wire runs back main panel , bonded neutral connector house ground rod connection local earth ground would necessarily meet one goals ground wire , short develops hot ground wire , enough current would flow trip breaker hmmm orange isolated ground outlets \( often used computer rooms \) wired \? jamie hanrahan , kernel mode systems , san diego ca internet jeh cmkrnl com uucp uunet ! cmkrnl ! jeh cis 74140 , 2055
sgberg charon bloomington us \( stefan g berg \) subject motorola xc68882rc33 rc50 reply sgberg charon bloomington us \( stefan berg \) distribution world organization organization x newssoftware grn 1 16f \( 10 17 92 \) mike schwartz michael b smith lines 25 article rosie uh edu st1my rosie uh edu \( stich , christian e \) writes installed motorola xc68882rc50 fpu amiga board \( 25 mhz 68030 68882 capability clock fpu separately \) previously mc68882rc25 installed everything working perfectly systems displays yellow screen \( indicating exception \) check presence type fpu reinstall mc68882rc25 system works fine , even 25 mhz work designer board mentioned putting pullup resistor data strobe \( 470 ohm \) might help , n't change anything anybody suggestions could \? look like cpu fpu communications problem particular chip dead \( pull , new \) \? moreover , place bought sending xc68882rc33 thought labeled mc xc \( finalized mask design \) \? , , xc68882rc50 math coprocessor , installed succesfully mega racer \( clocked 33 mhz \) tried fpu 28 50 mhz worked fine 33 cpu n't know fpu xc \( original 33mhz fpu label 33 \) , seems work fine system maybe bad chip stefan p mean experimental chip instead motorola chip \? \)
ch \( markus \) subject characterization organization \( \) switzerland lines 23 hi , right characterization n't special equipment task , job simple \( frequency sweeper , dso , etc \) anyone know good test circuitry characterization \? especially measuring open loop gain , phase margin , , books application notes subject available \? please reply vi e mail nn thanks mark mark e mail ch
ac kr \( kim \) subject looking electronics dept info austrailia organization korea advanced institute science technology x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 13 hi netters ! looking list universities austrailia , electronics department considering spend year research austrailia communication area interested mobile communication areas spread spectrum communications etc n't information austrailian universities anybody recommend good university co ation area \? comments welcomed ! bye kim
jgd dixie com \( john de armond \) subject nuclear site 's cooling towers \? organization dixie communications public access mouth south lines 99 nagle netcom com \( john nagle \) writes great explaination , however left one detail , always see nuclear plants , always fossil fuel plants nuclear plants prefered run water closed cycle , whereas fossil fuel plants cases get away dumping hot water recall water n't hot \( \) many fossil fuel plants , course less danger radioactive contamination actually reasons n't see many cooling towers fossil plants 1 \) fossil units \( multiple units per plant \) generally smaller nuclear plants 300 seemed popular size many fossil plants built average nuclear plant 1000 2 \) many fossil plants water discharge regulations adopted \( old dirt ca n't harm anything , let 'em go \) 3 \) powered draft cooling towers , low enough ground generally visible site , quite popular fossil plants 4 \) fossil plants used get much less regulatory attention actually , fossil fuel plants run hotter usual boiling water reactor nuclear plants \( 's gripe industry nuclear power uses 1900 vintage steam technology \) 's important nuclear plants get cold end system cold possible hence big cooling towers oil gas fired steam plants also condensers , usually sized get steam back hot water , way ambient plants cool condensers water , rather air one canadian official , asked thermal pollution de icing river , said , , view heat resource actually condensing environment essentially plants similar size issues regardless heat comes condensers run high vacuum possible order reduce aerodynamic drag turbine condenser pressure normally water 's vapor pressure condensing temperature desirable steam exhaust free water moisture steam causes severe erosion damage turbine low pressure blades water moving high velocity causes erosion condenser tubes thus lowest pressure condensing environment always best related issue pumping condensate hotwell \( water ends dripping condenser tubes \) since condenser low pressure , force driving condensate hotwell pumps gravity condensate hot gravity head low , condensate steam bubbles cause condensate pumps particularly destructive form avoided costs hotwell pumps located lowest point plant order provide gravity head pumps much lower must function hot water allowed get hotwell typically hotwell temperatures run 100 120 degrees depending temperature river water \( term used describe river grade water even cooling tower system operating closed loop mode essentially river water pumped \) river water temperature high summer , operators typically allow hotwell level rise order provide gravity head tradeoff involved since higher hotwell levels encroach onto condensing tubes reduce condenser area least east elsewhere moisture actually exists air \) , river water almost always cooler discharge water cooling towers temperature discharge water cooling towers set ambient air temperature humidity rare east hear actual river water temperatures exceeding 70 degrees vast difference typical 95 95 days \( 95 degrees , 95 humidity \) see routinely east unusual , particularly successful rigid discharge water temperature limits plant , plant reduce firing rate air temperature gets high condenser cannot handle heat load without excessive pressure everybody runs closed cycle water used solids , otherwise crud boiler plumbing water boils water boiler use bigger job cooling , boiler water recycled true actually secondary plant \( part makes electricity feeds feedwater boiler \) water chemistry bastard recently gotten respect deserves plant chemists past decade fully understood costs impure water impure , mean water dozen extra conductivity ppm dissolved oxygen secondary water typically pure one find outside laboratory john john de armond , wd4oqc interested high performance mobility \? performance engineering magazine \( tm \) interested high tech computers \? marietta , ga send ur snail mail address jgd dixie com perform dixie com free sample mag lee harvey oswald ya need ya \?
es subject zero db \? \? \? \? organization , red de lines 24 article 1993apr6 bnr ca , moffatt bnr ca \( john thomson \) writes joseph chiu \( josephc cco caltech edu \) wrote measure current , amp , actually named amp company amphenol company companies revolutionized electronics simulatenously realizing performance connectors sockets affected amount current running wires sorry unit current ampere name french man named ampere studied electrical current term amp abbreviation company amp came ampere unit already use ohmite company first characterize resistances numbers , thus use ohms n't know one , n't sound right \( two \) joking \? entire internet flaming \( two \) \? ahh ! , remember ohmite company first introducing pink colored resistor , electronics working females \) manuel arrevola velasco true e mail manolo taf fundesco es dod 1033
webb itu1 \( 90 webber ah \) subject adcom cheap products \? organization rhodes university , grahamstown , south africa x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 52 aaron lung \( alung megatest com \) wrote also sceptical amps built far east ever look amp see components use designed , easily see amplifiers sound brilliant good point also , would n't surprised components use shore inferior quality long properly designed robust , premium components used , n't matter assembled definately , agree wholeheartedly build amp labour expensive , afford put decent components go effort improve design amplifier adcom done cannot see people say amplifier wo n't last quality components inside sure amp runs fairly hot 's get amp sound incredibly good amp runs hot bearing 's gonna sound amp probably running class whole day actually , 'd wary excessively hot amps , even though components inside may rated run way , excessive heat dramatically shorten life electronic component regardless quality fact , amp run hot touch either engineer manufacturer amp wanted cooling save costs ! hmmmmm sure , n't mean imply heat generated , amp sounds good adcom runs fairly warm hot touch enough satisfy amp running nicely n't like amp runs dead cold makes one think amp nothing \) adcom uses amps certainly far 're massive things heating vents enough carry away excessive heat opinions alan webber webb itu1 sun ac za webb sun ac za path tread narrow drop sheer high ravens watching vantage point near creeping like choo train spine reach end final rhyme
jhwhit01 ulkyvx louisville edu subject 's good ic rs232 ttl signals \? \? lines 18 nntp posting host ulkyvx louisville edu organization university louisville article scraps uucp , scraps uucp \( frank holden ka3uww \) writes news cso uiuc edu rky57514 uxa cso uiuc edu \( tall cool one \) writes i'm looking ic convert rs232 voltage levels ttl voltage levels something relatively inexpensive would nice , anyone suggestion \? \? thanks well looks digi key sells chip number want selling 3 50 digi key also sells quad line receivers , parts \( \) \( \) quad line driver , part \( \) , also sold guess n't wo n't supply 12v , chips pump circuitry might worth extra cost 's 's available friendly neighborhood rs , parts \( 276 \) 1 29 \( 276 2521 \) 1 29 jeff white jhwhit01 ulkyvx louisville edu
conrad spva ph ic ac uk \( conrad winchester \) subject motorola xc68882rc33 rc50 keywords motorola , fpu , 68882 , 68030 , 33 50 mhz , problems \( fpu exception \) nntp posting host prawn sp ph organization imperial college science , technology , medicine , london , england lines 25 article rosie uh edu , st1my rosie uh edu \( stich , christian e \) writes installed motorola xc68882rc50 fpu amiga board \( 25 mhz 68030 68882 capability clock fpu separately \) previously mc68882rc25 installed everything working perfectly systems displays yellow screen \( indicating exception \) check presence type fpu reinstall mc68882rc25 system works fine , even 25 mhz work designer board mentioned putting pullup resistor data strobe \( 470 ohm \) might help , n't change anything anybody suggestions could \? look like cpu fpu communications problem particular chip dead \( pull , new \) \? moreover , place bought sending xc68882rc33 thought labeled mc xc \( finalized mask design \) \? thanks christian changed crystal clocks fpu n't wo n't work conrad
acorn co uk \( adrian godwin \) subject single chip receiver fsk \? organization acorn computers ltd , cambridge , uk lines 26 article law7 daytonoh ncr com jra law7 daytonoh ncr com \( john ackermann x 2966 \) writes goal come inexpensive design receiver back end input one end fsk i'm particularly interested ways use higher 10 7 current chips work , say 150mhz internal normal filter used \? gec specify series fm \( etc \) use satellite tv receivers 150 , 10mhz video think 's also related data clock recovery circuit intended use decoders , though n't used common implementation may volume production easily available components probably vary local satellite standards , think european systems vary rather widely us may worth investigating locally available receiver designs find 's common use adrian adrian godwin acorn co uk adrian demon co uk believe rubbish n't imagine anyone else
andrei univ orleans fr \( andrei \) subject references switched capacitor filter ics wanted organization university orleans , france lines 9 hi ! would like know popular ics type , capabilities \( channels et c \) prices \) great thanks , andrew
bills inqmind bison mb ca \( bill \) subject dmm advice needed organization inquiring mind bbs 1 204 488 1607 lines 41 kolstad cae wisc edu \( joel kolstad \) writes article 734953838 insane apana org au peter insane apana org going use one counts \( eg aviation , space , etc \) suggest go buy fluke \( never seen beckman \) , however every use buy cheapie beckman died days ago , thanks 4 5 foot drop onto lab table ! ! ! probably indicative anything , 've already filled fluke 87 \) oh yeah , sometimes measurements count often , often enough want least one good meter ! joel kolstad used buy beckman 110 \( \) versions use electricians steel mill work got round filling current input jacks silicone electricians regrettable habit checking last guy left leads using 3 1 2 digit 0 5 400 meter check fuse good hard meters \( electricians \) put across 600 volt bus 's stopped buying lot got funny lcd display black stain would spread one edge , else 'd come connectors fail operate buy , low end 20 series mostly \( still fill amp jack silicone \) world needs meter wo n't let change ranges turn lead stuck amps jack little bit clever plastic detailing would take care make world safer , anyway 've ever put meter wrong range live circuit , , dozen times , anyway bill bills inqmind bison mb ca inquiring mind bbs , winnipeg , manitoba 204 488 1607
mdgoodma apgea army mil \( malcolm goodman mdgoodma \) subject sale fiber optic modems , rf modem , etc best offer distribution na organization apg edgewood , md , usa lines 26 please take use take advantage really n't know worth qty 2 perkins fiber optic modems , model , rs 422 interface , appear new powered 's , used cannot tell whether work make offer qty 1 isc rf modem , model 1056 sm 120 , interface rs 449 , internal fan , powers fine otherwise condition unknown , phone company 408 747 0300 make offer qty 1 motorola 212 modem , rs 232 interface appears work cannot check make offer thanks please buy stuff goes door mack mdgoodma apgea army mil
slee01 srl ford com \( kevin routh \) subject f imagewriter windows organization ford motor company research laboratory lines 53 nntp posting host slee01 srl ford com x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 article crossposted comp windows ms author kevin routh posted 19 apr 1993 12 35 55 gmt information hooked imagewriter com1 serial port used c itoh driver windows 3 1 cable using straight thru cable connected null modem adapter got radio shack \( catalog 26 \) 4 95 seems work fine dos windows used following command dos c dos mode com1 9600 , n , 8 , 1 , p set port way windows ports setup null modem connections follows 1 1 2 3 3 2 4 5 5 4 6 8 20 20 6 8 7 7 printed several applications seems ok kevin c routh internet slee01 srl ford com ford electronics \( profs \) ic engineering drive , b 121 voice mail \( 313 \) 337 5136 , mi facsimile \( 313 \) 248 kevin c routh internet slee01 srl ford com ford electronics \( profs \) ic engineering drive , b 121 voice mail \( 313 \) 337 5136 , mi facsimile \( 313 \) 248 kevin c routh internet slee01 srl ford com ford electronics \( profs \) ic engineering drive , b 121 voice mail \( 313 \) 337 5136 , mi facsimile \( 313 \) 248
sean ee uct ac za \( sean \) subject info wanted graphics lcd displays organization university cape town x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 15 hi anyone know get hold data well stock lcd displays used nintendo gameboy handheld tv game machines \? information appreciated please e mail replies uct ac za thanks alex
subject pace modem mora \( mora \) distribution world nntp posting host eng lines 19 hi , 've got pace modem , series four \( made england pace micro technology \) broken power supply 'd like know voltage current values original power supply pinout power supply connector pinout user port use many thanks advance people help please post reply also e mail sender mora email mora eng
gould waterloo hp com \( dan gould \) subject telephone controlled power bar needed nntp posting host waterloo hp com organization hp div waterloo canada x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 9 lines 16 would appreciate help locating telephone controlled power bar pc unit would power pc telephone rings keep long telephone connection present also need able power pc use external timer supply power contact closure summarize post results query thank dan gould gould waterloo hp com
kehoe netcom com \( thomas david kehoe \) subject starters work really keywords fluorescent bulb starter neon organization netcom online communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 35 turn power , causes bulb work like neon , imprecise description 1 ignores role ballast , 2 heating effects starter strip cools immediately contacts 've thinking sending mad magazine idea parody , books entitled things work engineers buy sons , explain engines , , lights , etc work parody would things really work canned food , left page 'd see description things work gleaming stainless steel equipment food precisely right temperature , sealing oxygen free environment , etc right page 'd see things really work brain dead workers sending disgusting food gleaming equipment vegetables , parts animals people n't eat , barrels sugar chemicals 'd see \( left \) computer geniuses working algorithms x number people waiting get z floors shortest time right , 'd see elevator controllers behind one way mirror lobby choosing people appear biggest hurry making wait longest thoughts , , another 's martin , hanged witchcraft , thomas david kehoe kehoe netcom com \( 408 \) 354
kludge grissom larc nasa gov \( scott dorsey \) subject history question organization nasa langley research center reptile farm lines 16 nntp posting host grissom larc nasa gov article 2775 snap paj uk co gec mrc \( paul johnson \) writes recall reading phonograph used mechanical amplification compressed air squirted valve controlled pickup result noisy distinctly lo fi , much louder conventional phonograph tended wear disks pretty quickly though thinking , although n't wear disks conventional acoustic designs , high noise level due continual hiss escaping air lot still operating , pretty amplifier designed alexander graham bell , well , n't know ever constructed scott
kludge grissom larc nasa gov \( scott dorsey \) subject need find number phone line organization nasa langley research center reptile farm lines 16 nntp posting host grissom larc nasa gov article 20756 2bd16dea ecs umass edu alee ecs umass edu writes greetings ! situation phone jack mounted wall n't know number line n't want call operator place trace question certain device use find number line \? call friend long distance , collect ask speak operator asks , wo n't , ask operator leave number 'll read clear scott
kludge grissom larc nasa gov \( scott dorsey \) subject subliminal message flashing tv organization nasa langley research center reptile farm lines 19 nntp posting host grissom larc nasa gov article hpfcso fc hp com myers hpfcso fc hp com \( bob myers \) writes hi research subliminal suggestion psychology paper , read one researcher flashed hidden messages tv screen 1 200ths second possible \? thought maximum rate tv even capable displaying images 1 30th second \( 1 second image composed odd even scan lines \) correct fastest complete image could presented tv would one field , 1 60 second \( approximately \) course , phrase tv screen often thrown around reference crt display , perhaps researcher n't using normal tv rates might even vector \( \) display , case lower limit image time anyone 's guess \( probably phosphor persistence limited \) actually , lot work used done crt mounted front , driving really slide projector fast shutter low tech , job scott
kludge grissom larc nasa gov \( scott dorsey \) subject mysterious mosfet organization nasa langley research center reptile farm lines 9 distribution world nntp posting host grissom larc nasa gov mosfet pulled power supply , manual 's motorola part 1972 date code number 285 4 motorola folks assure house number , ca n't help suggestions folks \? ca n't put curve tracer try get equivalent , since 's completely shot scott
netnews jhuapl edu \( baker john p \) subject differential mode gps work \? \? \? summary explaination system keywords gps , differential , navigation , radio organization jhu applied physics laboratory lines 46 understand new gps boxes option known differential ready apparently land based beacons gps correction information gps receiver \( differential option installed \) system work \? frequency used land based beacons \? thanks advance , charlie thompson 's rough sketch system works reference station exactly known position computes errors incoming gps signals errors due several factors including atmospheric distortion , sa \( selective availability \) time dithering , etc reference unit contains complex computational equipment back errors position \( since knows already \) transmits corrections broadcast available number relatively local receivers receivers nearby \( \) using satellites reference unit , errors similar reference unit receiver unit thus , receiver unit may apply corrections calculated reference unit us coast guard currently \( far know \) installing series coastline transmitters differential gps stations use existing radio towers believe frequency approximately 305 khz many private corporations offering signals different frequencies example , \( \( 310 \) 618 \) offers correction signals receiver units using fm broadcast system stations across us correction codes usually transmitted using 104 format advertised accuracies espouse 1 5 meter errors john p baker opinions n't know johns hopkins university anyone else wants , anyway applied physics laboratory laurel , md aplcomm jhuapl edu
eos ncsu edu \( michael james hill \) subject new applications electronics originator eos ncsu edu reply eos ncsu edu \( michael james hill \) organization north carolina state university , project eos lines 8 i'm looking brief information new applications electronics \( new electronics applications \) know interesting new stuff , would intrested hearing thanks ,
domain cbnewsf cb att com \( george hodge \) subject dayton hamfest summary dayton hamfest organization distribution usa lines 14 weeks ago , someone posted article telling hamfest going help dayton , oh unfortunately , lost article wondering someone could repost believe held 23 , 24 , 25 month dayton convention center i'm sure help details would greatly appreciated george hodge domain att com
babb sciences sdsu edu \( j babb \) subject nuclear site 's cooling towers \? organization sdsu larc lines 8 distribution world nntp posting host larc sdsu edu really n't know post question figured board would appropriate try sci energy jeff babb babb sciences sdsu edu babb ucssun1 sdsu edu programmer , sdsu larc
mike diack mike staff tc umn edu subject 16 bit serial converters x xxdate tue , 20 apr 93 06 56 45 gmt nntp posting host dialup slip 1 34 gw umn edu organization persian cat carpet co x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d7 lines 2 someone looking weeks ago check comp dsp mike
babb sciences sdsu edu \( j babb \) subject getting rid screen \? organization sdsu larc lines 42 distribution world nntp posting host larc sdsu edu article itg vela acs oakland edu , vela acs oakland edu \( ed byrnes \) wrote monitor display bad case good ground live old house replaced much wiring two emi filters computer , monitor plugs computer fluorescent lights upstairs , display jiggles , motors run house , display jiggles , incandescent lights kitchen display jiggles could bring separate line breaker box , use computer , would \? emi n't travel 110 volt line though shield back monitor \? ground grid plate \? expertise appreciated thanks much ! ed byrnes problem near dear heart case , monitors cause problem deflection coil monitors specific also seen monitor backed fuse panel exhibit problem sounds like problem since , motors , etc several feet away seem far cause , juice running must pass nearby monitor fusebox side wall maybe \? started panasonic ct video monitors \( 3 input lines \( vid aud \) vhs one \) 400 stopped interference effect computer monitor next problem need known mu shielding \( common , fact almost mandatory electrostatic deflection type \) talked ee prof said get coffee , cut ends , mount around deflection coil interfering monitor careful avoid high voltage circuitry especially thicker high voltage anode lead usually colored red kill , blame sue ! ! ! use plastic non conducting stand offs mount , would assume good keeping mag fields also good keeping , hopefully 'll work mounting shield monitor interfered well , start shielding sources jeff babb babb sciences sdsu edu babb ucssun1 sdsu edu programmer , sdsu larc
schuch phx mcd mot com \( john schuch \) subject food dehydrators nntp posting host bopper2 phx mcd mot com organization motorola computer group , tempe , az distribution usa lines 9 anybody one food dehydrators 've seeing late night tv recently \? wondering use forced air , heat , 's heat involved , anybody know temperature run \? wife would like one i'm inclined pay 100 00 box , fan heater seems able throw dehydrator together bucks heck , technology \? 1 , 000 years old \? john
ski wpi wpi edu \( joseph mich \) subject need find number phone line organization worcester polytechnic institute lines 9 nntp posting host wpi wpi edu well , second try posting subject goes texas \( corpus christi least \) pick phone dial 890 phone company read number phone back believe service department uses make certain repairing correct lines open big junction boxes n't know work give try good luck
billq ms uky edu \( billy quinn \) subject suggestions audio relays \? \? \? organization university kentucky , dept math sciences lines 22 built little project using radio shack 5vdc relays switch audio got pretty bad 'clicks' thing switched common things one supposed using relays nothing seemed get rid clicks question good relay relay circuit use switching audio , noise kind audio lines appreciate advice references advice also , exact part numbers company names etc relays help ! thanks ! bill quinn billq ms uky edu
levy levy fnal gov \( mark e levy , ext \) subject nuclear site 's cooling towers \? nntp posting host levy fnal gov organization fermilab computing division lines 22 article shelley u washington edu , whit carson u washington edu \( john whitmore \) writes article vcd hp com johne vcd hp com \( john eaton \) writes s87271077 walker man 50 \( swalker uts edu au \) wrote nuclear fission reaction uranium fuel get hot enough melt happens liquid uranium pumped cooling tower sprayed air contact cool outside air condense mist fall back cooling tower floor collected cleaning crew using shop reformed pellets reactor use next day another april 1 posting ahhh mark e levy , fermilab bitnet levy fnal unix computing internet levy fnal gov sketch art hepnet span levy \( vms ! \)
sburton dres dnd ca \( stan burton \) subject radar detector detectors \? content type text plain charset iso 8859 1 nntp posting host stan content transfer encoding 8bit organization defence research establishment suffield x newssoftware grn beta 1 16g \( 04 01 93 \) michael b smith mike schwartz mime version 1 0 distribution na lines 25 article 1993apr14 bnr ca alee bnr ca \( louis \) writes article oasys dt navy mil write va , ct , wash dc think bc canada 've heard actually use radar detector detectors nope , british columbia detectors legal bc , 've even got one alberta ontario 're illegal , detection devices sometimes used 've heard police ontario prefer much direct method detection trigger radar gun , watch people slamming brakes , search car david lee sfu ca detectors legal alberta , old law overturned long time ago stan burton \( dnd crad dres dtd mss agcg \) sburton dres dnd ca \( 403 \) 544 4737 dre suffield , box 4000 , medicine hat , ab , canada , t1a 8k6
owlnet rice edu \( tracy brian \) subject wireless transmitter receivers rs organization rice university lines 12 anyone know frequencies wireless transmitter receiver microphone systems radio shack sells operate \? 've tried everything short opening one \( actually owning one makes difficult \) looking help would greatly appreciated systems designed wireless pa systems , etc thanks , tracy
st1my rosie uh edu \( stich , christian e \) subject motorola xc68882rc33 rc50 organization university houston lines 26 distribution world nntp posting host rosie uh edu keywords motorola , fpu , 68882 , 68030 , 33 50 mhz , problems \( fpu exception \) news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article rosie uh edu , st1my rosie uh edu \( stich , christian e \) writes installed motorola xc68882rc50 fpu amiga board \( 25 mhz 68030 68882 capability clock fpu separately \) previously mc68882rc25 installed everything working perfectly systems displays yellow screen \( indicating exception \) check presence type fpu reinstall mc68882rc25 system works fine , even 25 mhz work designer board mentioned putting pullup resistor data strobe \( 470 ohm \) might help , n't change anything anybody suggestions could \? look like cpu fpu communications problem particular chip dead \( pull , new \) \? moreover , place bought sending xc68882rc33 thought labeled mc xc \( finalized mask design \) \? thanks christian appears problem related 68882 50 's need fast \( clean \) signal transitions got email \( , thomas \) stating motorola provides solution problem 68030 manual since manual \( 1989 \) predates 50 mhz 68030 could n't find could someone please email specifics \? thanks christian
mont netcom com \( mont pierce \) subject 8051 microcontroller organization netcom online communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 31 article dns1 nmsu edu mcole spock \( cole \) writes would like experiment intel 8051 family anyone know good ftp sites might , assemblers , etc \? well , 's ftp site , got 800 number signetics bbs signetics bbs contain pretty good items 8051 currently using following files downloaded ml zip 's 8051 family macro assembler zip hex file load go using 8051 uart \( allows download program ram execute ram works great tell want details \) zip tsr 8051 feature help screens lots coding examples , assemblers , misc tools signetics bbs numbers \( 800 \) 451 \( 408 \) 991 fun , mont pierce ham call internet mont netcom com bands 80 40 20 15 10 2 ibm vnet mont vnet ibm com modes cw , ssb , fm
borowski spk hp com \( borowski \) subject help construct home built battery 3rd grade sci report distribution usa organization hewlett packard x newsreader tin version 1 1 4 pl6 lines 20 dean anneser \( anneser pwa b uucp \) wrote 9 yr old son signed science report batteries wondering anyone could provide information construct home built battery grade school days , remember seeing cube version , n't remember use good electrolyte easily obtainable metals thank advance remember watching whole mr wizzard program subject kid battery constructed program made biggest impression , generated power , made using galvanized bucket \( zinc \) copper toilet tank float electrolyte sauerkraut ! donald borowski hewlett packard , spokane division angels able fly take lightly g k chesterton
mont netcom com \( mont pierce \) subject need pinouts dtmf decoder chip organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) distribution usa lines 19 bought chip technology tried build dtmf decoder circuit 's working anyone pinouts possibly voltage specs 'd sure appreciated someone could fax , email , snail mail copy spec sheet chip would even better \) please email help thanks advance , mont pierce ham call internet mont netcom com bands 80 40 20 15 10 2 ibm vnet mont vnet ibm com modes cw , ssb , fm
babb sciences sdsu edu \( j babb \) subject cellar ink extras 4 trade organization sdsu larc lines 14 distribution world nntp posting host larc sdsu edu fellow info , extra cci 27 \( real time programming embedded sensors storage \) extra cci 32 \( voice control telescope , among articles \) labels torn , cut , missing pages would like trade cci 26 , cci 23 , cci 19 condition \( labels ok \) mail mine mail mutual trust kinda thang ok \? n't actually throw away , \? thanx , jeff babb babb sciences sdsu edu
garyg warren mentorg com \( gary gendel \) subject need find number phone lin organization mentor graphics corp ic group lines 32 distribution world reply garyg warren mentorg com nntp posting host garyg warren mentorg com article rave larc nasa gov , kludge grissom larc nasa gov \( scott dorsey \) writes article 20756 2bd16dea ecs umass edu alee ecs umass edu writes greetings ! situation phone jack mounted wall n't know number line n't want call operator place trace question certain device use find number line \? call friend long distance , collect ask speak operator asks , wo n't , ask operator leave number 'll read clear scott even easier , area supports 311 dial recording number phone techs use verify installed line gary gendel vice president current consulting assignment corp mentor graphics corporation 9 woods drive 15 independence boulevard belle mead , nj warren , nj phone \( 908 \) 281 phone \( 908 \) 604 fax \( 908 \) 281 email garyg warren mentorg com
yxy4145 ucs usl edu \( yu \) subject someone know news group ieee organization univ southwestern la , lafayette distribution usa lines 2 yxy4145 usl edu thanks lot
usc edu \( bin \) subject looking address noise cancellation tech organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 14 distribution na nntp posting host sal usc edu new newsgroup appropriate forum ask question looking address noise cancellation technologies rather important help regard , please thank aludra usc edu
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject motorola xc68882rc33 rc50 organization u toronto zoology lines 14 article sgberg charon bloomington us sgberg charon bloomington us \( stefan berg \) writes n't know fpu xc \( original 33mhz fpu label 33 \) , seems work fine system p mean experimental chip instead motorola chip \? \) rule designations says mc , means works exactly way book specifies says xc , means least one known bug often bugs small obscure might never run practice least motorola admits , unlike certain companies work one man 's work henry spencer u toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
willisw willisw eng clemson edu \( bill willis \) subject mysterious mosfet organization engineering services , clemson university lines 23 article rave larc nasa gov kludge grissom larc nasa gov \( scott dorsey \) writes mosfet pulled power supply , manual 's motorola part 1972 date code number 285 4 motorola folks assure house number , ca n't help suggestions folks \? ca n't put curve tracer try get equivalent , since 's completely shot scott since mosfet 1972 vintage , 's probably good one today 's standards idea voltage current ratings , e g 6a , probably get away replacing anything better specs early gate source voltage rating approximately 20 , would usually turn completely otherwise , really mysterious 're less voltage controlled current sources mosfet circuit used open loop , voltage controlled current source , may experiment various gain altering techniques bill willis willisw coe nw clemson edu \( 803 \) 656
iastate edu \( mark w \) subject common mode noise small signals keywords noise common mode organization iowa state university , ames ia lines 20 never worked really small signals questions low level noise noticed waveform synthesizer using \( \) relatively large common mode noise using synthesizer another transient waveform difference \( \) several hundred times 1 3 mvp p common mode noise tends make measurements hard repeat \( noise quite sync line frequency , spectrum analyzer , main component \) get rid noise \? look spectrum using hp \( audio range analyzer \) , noise goes away minute switch input guessing diff amp input since read accurately dc also , use differential amplifier \( ia \) solve problem , important use one \( amp connected shield sort feedback loop remove trouble caused different cable \) \? anyone suggest good ic ia use transient signals content , would appreciate
bday lambda msfc nasa gov \( brian day \) subject 8051 microcontroller organization nasa msfc lines 12 mcole spock \( cole \) writes would like experiment intel 8051 family anyone know good ftp sites might , assemblers , etc \? try gov pub 8051 brian day bday lambda msfc nasa gov new technology , inc \( 205 \) 461 mission software development division opinions
wayne alan martin andrew cmu edu subject dayton hamfest organization senior , electrical computer engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 5 distribution usa nntp posting host po5 andrew cmu edu reply 1993apr19 cbfsb cb att com yes , 23 , 24 25 , anyone directions get get dayton thanks wayne martin
synoptics com \( jerome \) subject electronic odometers \( used bmw qu reply synoptics com organization synoptics communications , santa clara ca lines 31 nntp posting host picasso synoptics com comments feasability bunch miles electronic odometer oscillator would n't expect able engineers bmw putting anti fraud logic , automobile noisy , hostile environment electronics , would expect software conservative design microprocessor based odometer speedometer program , would following features \( top head \) \( real pulse , glitch \? \) smoothing rate change speed cannot high car , electron top speed limit anything ridiculous must electrical noise contact bounce getting pins circuit board bmw dashboard , seem remember single big chip lotsa pins middle card good luck getting counter \) would n't expect high input frequency damage meter remember , 's probably damped ca n't move fast , probably protected , car extremely hostile place delicate electronics used app note national semiconductor linear databook went good detail jerry \( ! jerry com , synoptics com \) jerry
vms csd mu edu subject next cube board monitor cable \? organization marquette university computer services lines 8 reply vms csd mu edu nntp posting host csd mu edu hi ! quick question could someone please send pinout cable goes next cube monitor \? also , interested video signal \( sync type , vert rate \) information would greatly appreciated also thanks ! ryan brooks ryan mcs mu edu
alung megatest com \( aaron lung \) subject need find number phone line organization megatest corporation lines 24 article 20756 2bd16dea ecs umass edu alee ecs umass edu writes greetings ! situation phone jack mounted wall n't know number line n't want call operator place trace question certain device use find number line \? thanks response al number call return synthesized voice telling number line unfortunately , life ca n't remember telephone technicians use time used play around dorm rooms since multiple phone lines running rooms sorry ! aaron
musone acsu buffalo edu \( mark j musone \) subject mc sbi mixer organization ub lines 20 nntp posting host autarch acsu buffalo edu hi , wondering anyone would able help related subjects currently learning fm receivers recieving circuits understand lot things , things confused first mixer , mix rf local oscillator frequencies make anyone diagrams \( simple possible \) kind mixer \? come across mc mixer chip able find catalogs \( active , etc \) along note , simple fm receiver circuits anyone may stashed away somewhere let see \? p really good books fm theory along detailed electrical diagrams would help lot seen lot theory books circuits lot circuit books theory , one without help thanks , mark musone
levy levy fnal gov \( mark e levy , ext \) subject sources intel \? nntp posting host levy fnal gov organization fermilab computing division lines 18 midst designing project requires two motors led driven pulse width modulation i'm using , understand fb version programmable counter array essentially set forgotten pwm problems , variant difficult come need two three prefix \( ceramic window \) version development , lots p prefix \( plastic \) later production 've tried , arrow , pioneer \( might \) , i'm looking samples point , 're willing provide would buy , vendors 100 00 help appreciated mark e levy , fermilab bitnet levy fnal unix computing internet levy fnal gov sketch art hepnet span levy \( vms ! \)
jott scarecrow cse nd edu \( john ott \) subject pinout needed til311 reply jott scarecrow cse nd edu \( john ott \) organization univ notre dame lines 64 article segal , segal rtsg mot com \( gary segal \) writes 've recently picked til311 display chips , ca n't find information seems longer made ti , n't old enough data book \( appears dot matrix led display capable showing one hex digit 14 pin dip package , pins 6 , 9 , 11 present information part \( pinout , power , functions , \) please send e mail thank , gary segal motorola inc segal oscar rtsg mot com cellular infrastructure division standing gaze wind pin function 1 led supply voltage 2 latch data input b 3 latch data input 4 left decimal point cathode 5 latch strobe input 6 omitted 7 common gnd 8 blanking input 9 omitted 10 right decimal point cathode 11 omitted 12 latch data input 13 latch data input c 14 logic supply voltage \( 5v \) latch strobe input , pin 5 , low , data latches follow data latch data inputs high , data latches change display blanked restored enable input high , previous character displayed blanking input , pin 8 , high , display blanked regardless levels inputs low , character displayed determined data latches blanking input may intensity modulation latch data inputs , pins 2 , 3 , 12 , 13 , data inputs entered latches enable input low binary weights inputs 1 , b 2 , c 4 , 8 decimal point cathodes , pins 4 , 10 , leds connected logic chip decimal point used , external resistor current limiting mechanism must connected series led supply , pin 1 connection permits user save regulated vcc current using separate led supply , may externally connected logic supply \( vcc \) logic supply \( vcc \) , pin 14 separate vcc connection logic chip common ground , pin 7 , logic led currents except decimal points john jott dickens helios nd edu
tron ux1 cso uiuc edu \( tron r \) subject modulation rf organization university illinois urbana lines 11 would like rf rf remote control project high 5 v low 0v thanks tron
morrow cns ucalgary ca \( bill morrow \) subject need source old radio shack stereo amp chip nntp posting host cns ucalgary ca organization university calgary lines 13 last week asked help getting old homemade amp working sun cd rom drive turns channel testing burned amp channel works fine need new amplifier chip local radio shack longer carries components ! chip 12 pin \( \? \) labelled 502 515 anyone source \? thanks , bill morrow clinical , university calgary e mail morrow cns ucalgary ca voice \( 403 \) 220 fax \( 403 \) 283 hospital drive nw calgary , alberta , canada t2n
msunde01 mik uky edu \( mark underwood \) subject help construct home built battery 3rd grade sci report nntp posting host mik uky edu reply msunde01 mik uky edu organization university kentucky , dept math sciences distribution usa lines 29 article spk hp com borowski spk hp com \( borowski \) writes dean anneser \( anneser pwa b uucp \) wrote 9 yr old son signed science report batteries wondering anyone could provide information construct home built battery grade school days , remember \( snip ! \) n't following , i'm sorry somebody already mentioned , could grab lemon \( think potatoes work , i'm sure \) , strip copper , strip zinc \( think get metal hardware store hobby shop , maybe \? \? \) stick strips lemon \( n't touch ! \) 'll get measurable voltage \( lot , , hey , 's lemon \) \) recall hook something like ten things get appreciable amount current , internal resistance , need demo might get run tiny fan something ! \) mark underwood ee student , university kentucky lab assistant , boyd hall microlab \( tiny little division uk library microlabs \) e mail msunde01 mik uky edu
schuch phx mcd mot com \( john schuch \) subject need pinouts dtmf decoder chip nntp posting host bopper2 phx mcd mot com organization motorola computer group , tempe , az distribution usa lines 59 article netcom com mont netcom com \( mont pierce \) writes bought chip technology tried build dtmf decoder circuit 's working anyone pinouts possibly voltage specs 'd sure appreciated presume corporation pin description 1 input 2 input 3 gs \( gain select use feed back resistor \) 4 \( reference voltage output , 2 \) 5 connect vss 6 connect vss 7 clock input 8 clock output \( connect crystal across pins 7 8 \) 9 vss 10 oe output enable \( logic high allows data output \) 11 q1 data output 12 q2 data output 13 q3 data output 14 q4 data output 15 std delayed steering output \( company would call \) 16 est early steering output , sort like i'm starting hear tone 17 st gt steering input guard time output 18 power supply 4 75v min , 5 max current 3 , 7 max really bought motorola part \) \( still stock \) john someone could fax , email , snail mail copy spec sheet chip would even better \) please email help thanks advance , mont pierce ham call internet mont netcom com bands 80 40 20 15 10 2 ibm vnet mont vnet ibm com modes cw , ssb , fm
subject pattern generator wanted ccu1 aukuni ac nz \( tony \) organization university auckland , new zealand keywords pattern summary mda ega vga pat gen lines 15 repair lot monitors , 'd like know get pattern generator \( circuit one \) provide mda , ega vga signals using whole pc takes much space bench , somewhat less portable guess could sit design something , n't time right \( reasonable \) suggestions would appreciated tg tony , make friendship elephant biomedical engineering services keeper , unless room university auckland entertain elephant auckland , new zealand
p4 cs man ac uk \( monty mole \) subject fm transmitter keywords old question know lines 14 anyone please email diagram give details ftp site diagram simple , small fm mono voice transmitter 90 104 range \( preferably 100 mhz \) short distance , frequency variation important must run 9v smaller dc supply thanx advance monty uk ac man cs cs man ac uk save vinyl !
alung megatest com \( aaron lung \) subject suggestions audio relays \? \? \? organization megatest corporation lines 23 article c5qsbf iek ms uky edu billq ms uky edu \( billy quinn \) writes built little project using radio shack 5vdc relays switch audio got pretty bad 'clicks' thing switched common things one supposed using relays nothing seemed get rid clicks question good relay relay circuit use switching audio , noise kind audio lines appreciate advice references advice also , exact part numbers company names etc relays help ! switching high level signals low level signals like pre amp level signals \? also , clicks mentioning big clack happens switches refering contact bounce \? driving relays \? ttl gate output \? switching transistor \? relays connected driving \? need specifics answer question ! ! \)
loving cs ucla edu \( mike loving \) subject specs eprom data formats nntp posting host cs ucla edu organization ucla , computer science department lines 10 need specs various eprom data formats intel hex , motorola etc anyone provide info pointer \? one want intel hex mike
payne crl dec com \( andrew payne \) subject wanted tcm3105 chips , small quantities organization dec cambridge research lab lines 16 anyone know source tcm3105 modem chips \( used pmp modems \) \? ideally , something geared toward hobbyists small quantity , mail order , etc years , 've buying distributor \( marshall \) hundreds pmp kits orders dropped point longer afford offer service distributors 've checked crazy minimum order \( 100 , \) 'd like find source still interested building pmp kits suggestions \? andrew c payne dec cambridge research lab
babb rapnet sanders lockheed com \( scott babb \) subject radar detector detectors \? organization lockheed sanders x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 distribution na lines 24 brian day \( bday lambda msfc nasa gov \) wrote december 29 , 1992 , illegal operate radar detector state virginia one got caught , one got fined 65 00 ask know federal communications act 1934 made legal operate radio receiver kind , frequency \( including x , k , ka bands \) united states electronic communications privacy act 1989 \( \? \) restricted fca 1934 making illegal receive land mobile telephone service , including \( believe \) cellular phones restriction placed receiving radar \( , curiously , cordless phones \) enforcement virginia law violation fca 1934 lots time money \( lawyer , i'm , \) argue federal court try law overturned hardly wait see responses one , somebody say lockheed sanders may disagree solely opinions scott l babb babb rapnet sanders lockheed com n't inherit earth parents , borrowing children
jhawk panix com \( john hawkinson \) subject building uv flashlight organization panix public access unix , nyc lines 23 yes , know sounds crazy call urge call want n't ask \) anyway , 'd like build uv flashlight , cheaply flashlight means reasonably portable , could power pack necessary main question bulb get uv bulbs \? need lot power \? etc , etc i'm concerned whether 's long wave short wave \( hey , anyone cheap source bulbs , 'll take \) one thing friend mine mentioned something near uv light cheaper get actual uv light anyone know referring \? thanks much john hawkinson jhawk panix com
ptorre hardy u washington edu \( phil torre \) subject circuit cellar ink address \? organization university washington , seattle lines 2 distribution na nntp posting host hardy u washington edu summary address phone number subscriptions \? cci still published \? , anyone address \?
wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca \( wayne smith \) subject radar detector detectors \? organization john p robarts research institute , london , ontario distribution na nntp posting host valve heart rri uwo ca lines 21 article 1993apr19 rapnet sanders lockheed com babb rapnet sanders lockheed com \( scott babb \) writes federal communications act 1934 made legal operate radio receiver kind , frequency \( including x , k , ka bands \) united states electronic communications privacy act 1989 \( \? \) restricted fca 1934 making illegal receive land mobile telephone service , including \( believe \) cellular phones illegal receive land mobile telephone service \? n't mobile reciever even land mobile telephone service \? ship shore telephone service \? restriction placed receiving radar \( , curiously , cordless phones \) enforcement virginia law violation fca 1934 isi n't kind rule \( regulation , law , whatever \) prohibit use police band recievers vehicles \? radar transmissions included police band get covered regulation \?
kirk cowen wimsey bc ca \( kirk cowen \) subject references distribution world organization commodore computer club lines 12 've got problem ca n't dig info jumper settings hd 3 5 drives anyone recommend reference book \( \) subject , rather quick fix type answer \? \? going start hooking things logging results , prospect ten second smoke test thanks , kirk cowen via dlg pro v0 995
alung megatest com \( aaron lung \) subject motorola xc68882rc33 rc50 organization megatest corporation lines 21 article zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) writes article sgberg charon bloomington us sgberg charon bloomington us \( stefan berg \) writes n't know fpu xc \( original 33mhz fpu label 33 \) , seems work fine system p mean experimental chip instead motorola chip \? \) rule designations says mc , means works exactly way book specifies says xc , means least one known bug often bugs small obscure might never run practice xc units often pre production sample devices normally distributed evaluation guaranteed meet every spec least motorola admits , unlike certain companies yep , 's sure 's one thing like motorola aaron
mont netcom com \( mont pierce \) subject 8051 microcontroller organization netcom online communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 20 article 1993apr19 lambda msfc nasa gov bday lambda msfc nasa gov \( brian day \) writes mcole spock \( cole \) writes would like experiment intel 8051 family anyone know good ftp sites might , assemblers , etc \? try gov pub 8051 great site complete shadow signetics bbs 8051 directory thanks brian , mont pierce ham call internet mont netcom com bands 80 40 20 15 10 2 ibm vnet mont vnet ibm com modes cw , ssb , fm
jmc engr engr uark edu \( j \) subject exploding tv nntp posting host engr engr uark edu organization university arkansas lines 21 thought maybe possibly fact emerson 've got emerson vcr 6 series returned six times various never problems got tired taking back fixed hi fi window bit something like hi fi audio fine tuning wal mart associate '88 '89 , least one returned defective every single day 's reliability \? face emerson make audio stuff \( albeit premium quality \) , can't make anything complex video equipment reliability imho please , flames share emerson disaster light exploding tv jc la vie c'est une ! \? present error jmc engr uark edu message printed abort , retry , fail \? 100 recycled electricity ! !
sean oliver mindlink bc ca \( sean oliver \) subject need find number phone line organization mind link ! british columbia , canada lines 28 joseph mich writes msg id bigboote wpi edu posted 19 apr 1993 17 49 04 gmt org worcester polytechnic institute well , second try posting subject goes texas \( corpus christi least \) pick phone dial 890 phone company read number phone back believe service department uses make certain repairing correct lines open big junction boxes n't know work give try good luck live , use number dial 211 result sean oliver internet address mindlink bc ca mindlink ! bbs \( 604 \) 576 1412
netcom com \( chuck l peterson \) subject 40mhz oscilloscope sale organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 11 i'm giving hardware design selling oscilloscope bk precision model 40 mhz dual trace barely used 450 firm \( fry 's sells 589 tax \) prefer people silicon valley , n't ship netcom com
ra msstate edu \( john \) subject info amp ic amp secs possible pspice models keywords audio , amps nntp posting host ra msstate edu organization mississippi state university lines 40 hi , electronic engineering student electronic ii belt , find needing build moderate wattage audio amp , 'll throw couple question vast knowledge ! please explain watts calculated audio amp circuits , p e , relates one following ai current gain av voltage gain ap power gain whatever already \? wonderful \? cheap e 20 schematic amp , would like cross improve circuit problem parts list amplifiers look like \? 11 pin \? packages heatsink schematic published 1991 mag may non existant anyway , tried looking replacement latest digi key cat found listed 8 \( closes could figure 9 pin anyone got ideas \? thought , hey pspice simulation using 741 opamp models yea , great ! worked , guess 741 n't made high power amps result , got voltage gain v worse started 8 \( anyone pspice file cheap yet good gain \? models chips listed e mail \? ascii chip info guys send \? i'm open suggestions ideas comments help ! please e mail since little time search news 'll post 's interest ! john ibm ee majors best 8 \) atari john \( \( rules ! ra msstate edu msstate bitnet \( aol aol com isis msstate edu
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject radar detector detectors \? organization u toronto zoology lines 17 article 1993apr20 julian uwo ca wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca \( wayne smith \) writes restriction placed receiving radar \( , curiously , cordless phones \) enforcement virginia law violation fca 1934 isi n't kind rule \( regulation , law , whatever \) prohibit use police band recievers vehicles \? radar transmissions included police band get covered regulation \? rules regulations laws would subject attack attempting federal authority regulate \( \) radio communications course , original poster noted , court challenges kind get expensive work one man 's work henry spencer u toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
randall informix com \( randall rhea \) subject power , signal surges home organization informix software , inc lines 39 nosubdomain nodomain \( greg stovall \) writes anyway , weekend , resting sofa \( \) , noticed briefly picked sounded like ham radio traffic stereo television , even though also , touch sensitive lights house start going wacko , cycling four brightness states presume ham operator illegal amplifier drove past house \( live busy \) would correct presumption \? kind power must putting cause effects \? affected equipment 100 feet road hams legally run 1500 watts unlikely , however , ham would running kind power car ham rigs cars put around 100 watts possible 100 watt radio would cause interference consumer electronic 100 feet away tvs , stereos , vcrs poor rf shielding experience problem frequently , may caused ham , , radio operator base station nearby interference may caused radio transmitter used purposes , police , fire , etc heard voices stereo , think correct assuming source rf transmitter frequent trouble , may want try rf ferrite chokes available radio shack interference probably picked speaker wires , chokes installed wires easily \( without cutting \) good instructions included chokes solve problem , may want search neighborhood radio operator look antennas roof car talk problem things radio operator reduce interference randall rhea informix software , inc project manager , mis sales marketing systems uunet ! pyramid ! infmx ! randall
mg cs princeton edu \( michael golan \) subject 0 022 uf different two 0 047 series \? ! originator news nimaster nntp posting host elan princeton edu organization princeton university lines 29 looking amps diagram sony receivers , amazed find difference us canadian model capacitor \( \) hangs output speakers speaker \( identical models amp \( models \) 10 0 022 canadian model ! us model 0 047 world wide model model ! 0 047 board also identical , room three caps us versions clearly indicated places make sense \? 0 047 2 0 0235 , essentially 0 022 caps \( standard caps , special w type precision \) please explain michael golan mg cs princeton edu
org \( brian \) subject need help finding dip switch settings jumper settings 386sx motherboard keywords jumper settings dip switch settings , help , computer 386sx organization national federation blind california lines 14 hello net 386sx motherboard phoenix bios , board ide controller port , two board serial ports unfortunately , n't manual beast would like able disable ide controller order use mfm controller board says made korea uses chips chipset anyone give clue go configuring board use ide controller , go finding , help would greatly appreciated thank advance assistance please mail org responses news feed rather tenuous thank much ! brian org
randy ampr ab ca \( randy j \) subject needed 24 volt 4 circuit flasher organization amateur radio lines 17 looking source 4 circuit sequence flasher input 24 volts ac , 8 amps output sequence 4 channels \( knob vary frequency \) \( max 2 amps per leg \) switch put channels full time please email assistance provide randy email randy ampr ab ca \) randy j p eng compression technologies \( \( \) \) \( \) \) \( \) 77 ave
flash pax tpa com au \( martin john gregory \) subject help real time clock standby mode organization pax public access unix \( adelaide \) lines 24 nntp posting host flash pax tpa com au trouble obtaining specified standby current drain real time clock anyone experience \? specs call sequences met standby mode activated , bit hard decipher , thought worked however , crystal lowest current drain acheive 3 7v vcc three times specified maximum conditions attempting create done following things 1 \) made sure reset asserted powerup , low time 2 \) made sure cycle negation rd wr asserted wrong \? thanks much , martin
student canberra edu au \( stephen \( \) \) subject help wanted summary decoders organization university canberra lines 9 could someone please tell 1 4 decoder 1 4 know link 2 get 8 output circuit , link 5 make 1 16 multiplexer sorry seems like lame question , i'm newbie electronics , circuit please make mail possible thanx , \( student canberra edu au \)
johnh macadam mpce mq edu au \( john haddy \) subject dmm advice needed organization macquarie university lines 30 distribution world nntp posting host macadam mpce mq edu au world needs meter wo n't let change ranges turn lead stuck amps jack little bit clever plastic detailing would take care make world safer , anyway 've ever put meter wrong range live circuit , , dozen times , anyway bill bills inqmind bison mb ca inquiring mind bbs , winnipeg , manitoba 204 488 1607 fluke 87 beeps try take current measuring range still lead plugged current sense socket solve problem unless noisy environment johnh electronics department \( \) \( \( \( school mpce macquarie university sydney , australia 2109 email johnh mpce mq edu au , ph 61 2 805 8959 , fax 61 2 805 8983
igc apc org \( nichols \) subject fujitsu 8 hdd lines 13 nf id r 1993apr17 aber ac uk cdp 000 729 nf cdp uucp ! apr 19 08 23 00 1993 fujitsu uses known interface \( storage module device \? \) lot older minis used sun still server models several different speeds smd , think fuji drive rated 24 mb sec \( thats \) used several companies made pc \( texas one \) , think market pretty much dried controllers type drive readily available vme buses though rumor smd scsi adapter available , think designed slower smd devices words , pc mac , drive pretty much cheers ,
ntuvax ntu ac sg subject pwm control thru software lines 17 nntp posting host ntu ac sg organization nanyang technological university singapore currently using 8051 microcontroller external eprom order drive dc motor \( direction \) use pulse width thru software control \( assembly language programming \) however afraid thus alter pulse timing question software pwm control reliable \? understand port 0 latch vary duty cycle setting high first desire duty cycle set low \? \?
subject looking electronics dept info austrailia lure latrobe edu au \( byrnes , graham \) organization la trobe university reply ac kr 's message mon , 19 apr 93 00 38 00 gmt x news reader vms news 1 24 lines 20 1993apr19 kaist ac kr ac kr writes hi netters ! looking list universities austrailia , electronics department considering spend year research austrailia communication area interested mobile communication areas spread spectrum communications etc n't information austrailian universities anybody recommend good university co ation area \? comments welcomed ! bye kim well , honestly n't know good , bad indifferent , electronics dept la trobe la trobe university , vic australia fax 613 471 chairman prof ian white sorry , n't email address graham b
ac uk \( \) subject help lines 12 hello , anyone used requirements methodology \? british final year real time degree student , project covering methodology would grateful anyone could give views method please mail feel help , send questions thanks advance , david phelps \( ac uk \)
dp cec1 wustl edu \( david prutchi \) subject oem weight scale nntp posting host cec1 organization washington university , st louis mo lines 13 someone sell oem scale units either analog digital output \? need something like scales used supermarket cash registers , dynamic range pounds reasonable accuracy sources \? david david prutchi hc1dt washington university prutchi mesun4 wustl edu campus box 1185 dp cec1 wustl edu one brookings drive prutchi eng tau ac il st louis , mo 63130 4899
dtek chalmers se \( henrik \) subject digital answering mach keywords digital nntp posting host dtek chalmers se organization chalmers university technology , gothenburg sweden lines 10 anybody know anything chips chips dsp telecommunications inc \? 'd greatly appreciate information price , pinouts peripherals regards , henrik
desire wright edu \( h \( hacker training \) \) subject need find number phone organization wright state university lines 12 since seen various different numbers dial get number read back phone company , could list point book could get list different numbers u \? failing , could someone tell ohio 's \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? 451 \? n't speak wright \? \? desire wright edu \? state , give \? \? wright state university \? huge amounts money \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \?
keith churchill columbiasc ncr com \( keith boyd \) subject need find number phone line nntp posting host churchill columbiasc ncr com organization ncr corp , columbia sc lines 30 article 20756 2bd16dea ecs umass edu alee ecs umass edu writes greetings ! situation phone jack mounted wall n't know number line n't want call operator place trace question certain device use find number line \? thanks response al get dial tone plug phone jack \? \? , line possibly disconnected nearest telco junction box get dial tone , surely telco sending bill line someplace somebody sure level sounds like trying get somebody 's number keith keith boyd \( ncr cola \) nothing could platt springs rd south carolina ! west cola , c go ! keith boyd columbiasc ncr com vp 803 791 uunet uunet ! ! ! ! keith
mike diack mike staff tc umn edu subject rams roms ale latches \( 8051 's \) x xxdate wed , 21 apr 93 03 04 18 gmt nntp posting host dialup slip 1 88 gw umn edu organization persian cat carpet co x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d7 lines 15 article ucnv edu au j , jeff redgum ucnv edu au writes asked year ago , still looking getting sick use 2 check 's new april 12th edition 8k 8 built latch setup hook directly , power , prom serial port , load code via , gets onto , reset run i'm sure dallas also something like , suppose would boil relative prices , dallas part freeing p0 p2 completely wonder anyone ever managed design single sided pcb 8051 , 573 , eprom , sram links \? cheers mike
fontana cis ohio state edu \( mark fontana \) subject homemade projector automation organization ohio state university dept computer info science lines 37 distribution usa nntp posting host cis ohio state edu hi , i'm assistant manager local art theater columbus 'd like expand show automation bit namely add capability use cue tapes bring current automation consoles date early 60 's n't provide function already combo contact rollers read , dimmer system raise fade control circuit \( 120 vac \) momentarily closed , least 0 5 second 've tried wiring dimmer control 12v relay , activated cue tape completes circuit low tech simple , 's one problem order get 1 2 second pulse , needs sh load film \( 35mm runs 90 feet per minute , get 1 2 second pulse , needs least 9 inches solid ! \) ideally , would like use single cross cue accomplish function \( single strip perpendicular length film \) would give pulse approximately 1 100 second need circuit detect short cue activate relay around 1 2 second ability adjust long relay activated would nice figure would require rc circuit sort i'm sure already solution figured heads suggestions schematics would appreciated ! thanks , mark fontana arts , cinema mark fontana important computer information science v lenin ohio state university
dp cec1 wustl edu \( david prutchi \) subject cellar ink extras 4 trade nntp posting host cec1 organization washington university , st louis mo lines 32 article babb larc sdsu edu babb sciences sdsu edu \( j babb \) writes fellow info , extra cci 27 \( real time programming embedded sensors storage \) extra cci 32 \( voice control telescope , among articles \) labels torn , cut , missing pages would like trade cci 26 , cci 23 , cci 19 condition \( labels ok \) mail mine mail mutual trust kinda thang ok \? n't actually throw away , \? thanx , jeff babb babb sciences sdsu edu also trying complete collection extra cci 16 \( communications \) 12 \( applications arts \) , mint condition would like trade \( buy \) following 1 , 3 , 22 , 23 , 25 , 26 , 30 , 31 thanks david david prutchi hc1dt washington university prutchi mesun4 wustl edu campus box 1185 dp cec1 wustl edu one brookings drive st louis , mo 63130 4899
pt com \( ken \) subject decent , cheap 20 mhz scopes \? organization performance technologies , incorporated lines 12 info modern 20mhz better dual trace scopes would appreciated buy used one new one \? \? please e mail thanks advance ken ken , performance technologies incorporated pt com 315 science parkway , rochester , new york uupsi ! !
cab col hp com \( chris best \) subject food dehydrators organization service lines 10 distribution usa nntp posting host hpctdkz col hp com anybody one food dehydrators 've seeing late night tv recently \? wondering use forced air , heat , 's heat involved , anybody know temperature run \? wife would like one i'm inclined pay 100 00 box , fan heater seems able throw dehydrator together bucks heck , technology \? 1 , 000 years old \? yeah , 1000 years ago , could n't buy guy sprayed hair !
wout dutentb et tudelft nl \( wout \) subject 0 022 uf different two 0 047 series \? ! nntp posting host et tudelft nl organization delft university technology , dept electrical engineering lines 43 1993apr19 princeton edu mg cs princeton edu \( michael golan \) writes looking amps diagram sony receivers , amazed find difference us canadian model capacitor \( \) hangs output speakers speaker \( identical models amp \( models \) 10 0 022 canadian model ! us model 0 047 world wide model model ! 0 047 board also identical , room three caps us versions clearly indicated places make sense \? 0 047 2 0 0235 , essentially 0 022 caps \( standard caps , special w type precision \) please explain michael golan mg cs princeton edu explanation think two capacitors series handle twice output voltage sometimes two 's \( know , positive sides facing \) used obtain large capacitor handle positive negative voltages well probably design philosophical reason , production cost one best 73 's wouter
subject 68hc16 public domain software \? murashiea mail beckman com \( ed murashie \) organization dsg development eng beckman instruments inc nntp posting host 134 217 245 87 lines 11 anyone know ftp site might find public domain software motorola 68hc16 microprocessor \? looking basic interpreter 'c' compiler thanks advance ed murashie ed murashie us mail beckman instruments inc phone \( 714 \) 993 diagnostic system group fax \( 714 \) 961 200 blvd w 361 internet murashiea mail beckman com brea , ca
aj008 cleveland freenet edu \( aaron barnes \) subject realistic pro 2024 scanner sale 200 , sell 150 organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 45 nntp posting host slc10 ins cwru edu article alt radio scanner path usenet ins cwru edu ! cleveland freenet edu ! aj008 aj008 cleveland freenet edu \( aaron barnes \) newsgroups alt radio scanner subject realistic pro 2024 sale 200 , sell 150 obo date 20 apr 1993 16 01 28 gmt organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 26 message id 3du usenet ins cwru edu nntp posting host slc10 ins cwru edu hello realistic pro 2024 scanner sale small desc 60 fully detailed digital display headphone jack antenna jack removable antenna auto search coverage 30 50mhz 118 380 originally cost 200 , sell 150 thank buchanan `96 ! fear goverment fears guns without 2nd amendment , cannot guarantee ou r freedoms aj008 cleveland freenet edu buchanan `96 ! fear goverment fears guns without 2nd amendment , cannot guarantee ou r freedoms aj008 cleveland freenet edu
johnr col hp com \( john \) subject adcom ir sensor repeater spec 's \? organization hp colorado springs division lines 25 nntp posting host col hp com anyone know details interface \( 5 wire din \) ir remote sensor \( 2 wire ir repeater \) adcom 500ii preamp \? adcom part numbers xr 500ii , 500ii , ira 500ii cursory physical examination pre amp connector indicates connector \( 5 pin din \) may provide \( viewed connector front \) 5 1 \( pin \? \) \? v \? \? \? 4 2 \( pin \? \) \? v \? \? \? 3 \( pin 3 \) signal ground \( pin \? \) signal \? v pp , \? polarity , \? drive \( pin \? \) signal drive repeater led \( drives resistor \) \? v pp assume repeater connectors \( mini plugs \) drive ir repeater led 's directly true \? anyone fill \? 's thanks john hewlett packard col johnr col hp com p box 2197 \( 719 \) 590 colorado springs , co 2197
moffatt bnr ca \( john thomson \) subject zero db \? \? \? \? nntp posting host organization bell northern research , ottawa , canada x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 33 es wrote article 1993apr6 bnr ca , moffatt bnr ca \( john thomson \) writes joseph chiu \( josephc cco caltech edu \) wrote measure current , amp , actually named amp company amphenol company companies revolutionized electronics simulatenously realizing performance connectors sockets affected amount current running wires sorry unit current ampere name french man named ampere studied electrical current term amp abbreviation company amp came ampere unit already use ohmite company first characterize resistances numbers , thus use ohms n't know one , n't sound right \( two \) joking \? entire internet flaming \( two \) \? ahh ! , remember ohmite company first introducing pink colored resistor , electronics working females \) manuel arrevola velasco true e mail manolo taf fundesco es dod 1033 yes , taken bit flame one must 've half asleep posted response joseph greg moffatt moffatt bnr ca bell northern research inc , ottawa canada opinions bnr 's
philip mentorg com \( philip \) subject radar detector detectors \? distribution na nntp posting host sun shine mentorg com organization mentor graphics keywords lines 33 article 1993apr20 julian uwo ca , wlsmith valve heart rri uwo ca \( wayne smith \) writes article 1993apr19 rapnet sanders lockheed com babb rapnet sanders lockheed com \( scott babb \) writes restriction placed receiving radar \( , curiously , cordless phones \) enforcement virginia law violation fca 1934 isi n't kind rule \( regulation , law , whatever \) prohibit use police band recievers vehicles \? radar transmissions included police band get covered regulation \? mean police band thing anyway , radar detectors work shared bands applied test , radar operated door malls would illegal one great problems many ill educated \( read illiterate \) people making many laws subjects incompetent may well laws police bands , almost certainly local scope \( state county \) created well meaning , incompetent idiots , laws sensible \( even \) lawmakers exist pass laws continue , day faced death x , limbs x choice note smiley philip
cup hp com \( doug claar \) subject los angeles freeway traffic reports nntp posting host cup hp com organization hewlett packard x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 9 lines 8 driving middle nowhere , picked knbr , 1070 , clear channel station based los angeles ad claiming able get traffic flow information thousands traffic sensors caltrans placed pavement caltrans sell info \? knbr exclusive \? 's deal \? doug former l commuter claar
wagner mala bc ca \( tom wagner , wizzard old audio visual equipment nanaimo campus \) subject suggestions audio relays \? \? \? organization malaspina college lines 63 article megatest com , alung megatest com \( aaron lung \) writes article c5qsbf iek ms uky edu billq ms uky edu \( billy quinn \) writes built little project using radio shack 5vdc relays switch audio got pretty bad 'clicks' thing switched common things one supposed using relays nothing seemed get rid clicks question good relay relay circuit use switching audio , noise kind audio lines appreciate advice references advice also , exact part numbers company names etc relays help ! switching high level signals low level signals like pre amp level signals \? also , clicks mentioning big clack happens switches refering contact bounce \? driving relays \? ttl gate output \? switching transistor \? relays connected driving \? need specifics answer question ! ! \) general rule , relay cleanly switch audio try tranfer circuit contacts noise hear due momentary opening closing path way transfering audio ground circuit high impedance audio circuits resistive constructed close characteristic impedance circuit grounding \( connected \) transfers audio low impedance circuits transformers usually used , inputs shorted grounded characteristic impedance sometimes necessary actually switch audio , second contact used momentarily short circuit output duration switching time telephone relays handy , contacts adjusted make break versa n't seen years switching done electronically op amps , etc novel circuit used build primitive optical consists resistive lamp , packaged tube lamp cell high resistance turn lamp resistance lowers passing audio device switches audio varying lamp resistance give remote volume control use 2 variable mixer ! lots luck ! 73 , tom tom wagner , audio visual technician malaspina college nanaimo british columbia \( 604 \) 753 3245 , loc 2230 fax 755 8742 callsign ve7gda weapon 45 kentucky rifle snail mail site q4 , c2 rr 4 , nanaimo , british columbia , canada , v9r 5x9 recyle keep everything ! \( standard disclaimers apply \)
wagner mala bc ca \( tom wagner , wizzard old audio visual equipment nanaimo campus \) subject correction last followup relays organization malaspina college lines 73 article 1993apr20 mala bc ca , wagner mala bc ca \( tom wagner , wizzard old audio visual equipment nanaimo campus \) writes article megatest com , alung megatest com \( aaron lung \) writes article c5qsbf iek ms uky edu billq ms uky edu \( billy quinn \) writes built little project using radio shack 5vdc relays switch audio got pretty bad 'clicks' thing switched common things one supposed using relays nothing seemed get rid clicks question good relay relay circuit use switching audio , noise kind audio lines appreciate advice references advice also , exact part numbers company names etc relays help ! switching high level signals low level signals like pre amp level signals \? also , clicks mentioning big clack happens switches refering contact bounce \? driving relays \? ttl gate output \? switching transistor \? relays connected driving \? need specifics answer question ! ! \) general rule , relay cleanly switch audio try tranfer circuit contacts noise hear due momentary opening closing path way transfering audio ground circuit high impedance audio circuits resistive constructed close characteristic impedance circuit grounding \( connected \) transfers audio low impedance circuits transformers usually used , inputs shorted grounded characteristic impedance sometimes necessary actually switch audio , second contact used momentarily short circuit output duration switching time telephone relays handy , contacts adjusted make break versa n't seen years switching done electronically op amps , etc novel circuit used build primitive optical consists resistive lamp , packaged tube lamp cell high resistance turn lamp resistance lowers passing audio device switches audio varying lamp resistance give remote volume control use 2 variable mixer ! lots luck ! 73 , tom tom wagner , audio visual technician malaspina college nanaimo british columbia \( 604 \) 753 3245 , loc 2230 fax 755 8742 callsign ve7gda weapon 45 kentucky rifle snail mail site q4 , c2 rr 4 , nanaimo , british columbia , canada , v9r 5x9 recyle keep everything ! \( standard disclaimers apply \) 73 , tom tom wagner , audio visual technician malaspina college nanaimo british columbia \( 604 \) 753 3245 , loc 2230 fax 755 8742 callsign ve7gda weapon 45 kentucky rifle snail mail site q4 , c2 rr 4 , nanaimo , british columbia , canada , v9r 5x9 recyle keep everything ! \( standard disclaimers apply \)
wagner mala bc ca \( tom wagner , wizzard old audio visual equipment nanaimo campus \) subject correction audio relay followup organization malaspina college lines 12 attacked keyboard correction followup audio relays got fouled varying lamp resistance , read , varying lamp voltage 73 , tom tom wagner , audio visual technician malaspina college nanaimo british columbia \( 604 \) 753 3245 , loc 2230 fax 755 8742 callsign ve7gda weapon 45 kentucky rifle snail mail site q4 , c2 rr 4 , nanaimo , british columbia , canada , v9r 5x9 recyle keep everything ! \( standard disclaimers apply \)
mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) subject building uv flashlight nntp posting host aisun3 ai uga edu organization ai programs , university georgia , athens lines 13 get little uv putting heavy uv filter \( deep purple \) front ordinary flashlight bulb \( brightest get \) father used setup like law enforcement work circa 1964 good uv \( \) bulbs work like fluorescent bulbs 'd proceed getting cheap battery powered fluorescent light , going electrical supply house finding uv bulb would fit michael covington , associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu university georgia phone 706 542 0358 athens , georgia 30602 7415 u amateur radio n4tmi
kehoe netcom com \( thomas david kehoe \) subject telephone controlled power bar needed organization netcom online communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 25 similar idea , fax answering machine switch , put machines one line order distinctive ringing phone company 3 month get second \( unpublished \) phone number someone calls number , phone rings short rings instead long rings set answering machine 4 rings fax six rings 'd give new fax device would measure length rings detects short ring , turns answering machine five rings later fax picks call cheaper elegant 80 switches available 's i'm giving new friends customers leave old , etc wo n't pick phone hear long rings thoughts , , another 's martin , hanged witchcraft , thomas david kehoe kehoe netcom com \( 408 \) 354
organization penn state university psuvm psu edu subject atari 2600 processors lines 12 anyone know processor atari 2600 used \? i'm looking th e pin outs atari 2600 schematics anyone idea could find related information \? also , rom chips used fo 2600 games still available , \? please email responces , important thanks million btw anyone works worked atari , could really use help old 2600 , please email willing help alot ! ! peter
wtm uhura neoucom edu \( bill mayhew \) subject dmm advice needed organization northeastern ohio universities college medicine lines 19 've fluke work 10 years wonderful meter several colleagues newer fluke meters , though still would soon hang 1980s analog simpson 260 analog dmm 1950 1960s \( \? \) extended frequency response 've got nifty little pen shaped meter made soar keep toolbox home 've six seven years replaced batteries couple adequate day day hobby use think soar stuff number vendors jdr stuff looks rather similar soar 's bill mayhew neoucom computer services department rootstown , oh 44272 9995 usa phone 216 325 2511 wtm uhura neoucom edu \( 140 220 1 1 \) 146 580 n8wed
wtm uhura neoucom edu \( bill mayhew \) subject help reduce rpms boxer fan \? organization northeastern ohio universities college medicine distribution na lines 18 yes , increase rpm slip boxer type fan installing capacitor series fan 's power supply air flow small 3 5 inch fans reduced 50 using 1 4 uf capacitor use good grade unit working voltage rating around 250 volts note study usually required experimentally determine best size capacitor given application dc powered applications , try radio shack 12 volt box fan run start reliably low 4 5 vdc exceptionally quiet , admittedly low flow wish knew made fans radio shack bill mayhew neoucom computer services department rootstown , oh 44272 9995 usa phone 216 325 2511 wtm uhura neoucom edu \( 140 220 1 1 \) 146 580 n8wed
cantrell sauron msfc nasa gov \( eric cantrell \) subject eeg kit \? nntp posting host sauron msfc nasa gov organization nasa msfc x newsreader nn version 6 4 19 lines 9 awhile back someone posted information get kits build eeg anyone remember could get i'm interested getting info thanks advance eric cantrell sauron msfc nasa
cc utexas edu \( \) subject radar detector detectors \? organization ut \? 's joke lines 24 nntp posting host cc utexas edu illegal use anything business illegal use jurisdictions ban radar detectors police monitors , essentially making claim reason radar detector police radio monitor results fighting claims courts mixed federal courts anxious intervene state courts sometimes held feds exclusive jurisdiction sometimes lot state courts enough imagination see use radar detector besides avoiding law enforcement action speeding buy radar detector , amongst , instructions , explanations , , invitation join association dedicated preserving right use radar detector \( promise making ! \) think radar detector manufacturers would making police departments enforced speed laws strict eye public safety blind eye fund aspect tickets mike
wtm uhura neoucom edu \( bill mayhew \) subject dayton hamfest organization northeastern ohio universities college medicine distribution usa lines 33 yes , take interstate 70 route 48 exit go south 48 2 1 2 miles right springs road arena , 1 mile west north side road parking arena limited probably entirely booked within 40 mile radius good luck 48 x \( mall \) springs possible park mall west shuttle busses running arena mall possible , get montgomery county , oh map local aaa office free aaa member n't already definite plans , particularly good time start think going bill mayhew neoucom computer services department rootstown , oh 44272 9995 usa phone 216 325 2511 wtm uhura neoucom edu \( 140 220 1 1 \) 146 580 n8wed
verity jack sns com \( steve verity \) subject need help video detection circuit organization lines 55 trying build circuit detects presence video \( vs blank screen \) monitoring r , g , b outputs graphics card able detect presence single pixel 65 mhz , would mean detecting 15 ns pulse also able tell difference blank screen \( 300 mv \) dim screen \( say , around 310 mv \) oh yes , also needs cheap first circuit failure used 3 compariators compariator input going one guns , input went reference created voltage divider \( \) first problem compariator way slow needed get several pixels row would fire compariators , could whole screen full text , circuit would detect second problem noise reference smallest difference blank screen dim screen fact difference completely black completely white 650 mv wondering going amplify video signals make work faster compariators , expensive , require split supplies would need replace 49 quad compariator three 1 89 compariators , create whole new power supply circuit point , think need sort transistor circuit transistors fast cheap trick unfortunately , way league comes designing transistor circuits , appealing net help ideas , tips , circuits , pointers , references , etc would greatly appreciated oh yes , sample output thing every second , n't need fast response time , however , n't found way take advantage fact thanks lot help anybody might able give course , undying gratitude steve verity steve verity maxed midi verity jack sns com
sburton dres dnd ca \( stan burton \) subject long distance ir detection content type text plain charset iso 8859 1 nntp posting host stan content transfer encoding 8bit organization defence research establishment suffield x newssoftware grn beta 1 16g \( 04 01 93 \) michael b smith mike schwartz mime version 1 0 lines 19 would like able detect angular position \( low accuracy \) ir emitting source distance 100 meters \( better \) daylight ir source could emitting signature i'm leaning toward 30 khz square wave 50 duty cycle considering use quadrant detector inc give information pan tilt head point sensor thus determine angles source considering wazing heck ir led \( \) , possibly motorola wazing would mean least 1 amp current pulses current duty cycle led drops 10 would need cycle five turn get 50 required anyone done something like \? stan burton \( dnd crad dres dtd mss agcg \) sburton dres dnd ca \( 403 \) 544 4737 dre suffield , box 4000 , medicine hat , ab , canada , t1a 8k6
drand spinner osf org \( douglas rand \) subject power , signal surges home reply randall informix com 's message 19 apr 93 20 37 19 gmt organization open software foundation lines 76 article randall woof randall informix com \( randall rhea \) writes nosubdomain nodomain \( greg stovall \) writes anyway , weekend , resting sofa \( \) , noticed briefly picked sounded like ham radio traffic stereo television , even though also , touch sensitive lights house start going wacko , cycling four brightness states presume ham operator illegal amplifier drove past house \( live busy \) would correct presumption \? kind power must putting cause effects \? affected equipment 100 feet road hams unlikely illegal amp , also unlikely dirty amp hams legally run 1500 watts unlikely , however , ham would running kind power car ham rigs possible either 'd need 300 amp alternator amplifier see need slow downgrade , hit push talk button cars put around 100 watts possible 100 watt radio would cause interference consumer electronic 100 feet away tvs , stereos , vcrs poor rf shielding experience problem frequently , may caused ham , , radio operator base station nearby interference may caused radio transmitter used purposes , police , fire , etc heard voices stereo , think correct assuming source rf transmitter frequent trouble , may want try rf ferrite chokes available radio shack interference probably picked speaker wires , chokes installed wires easily \( without cutting \) good instructions included chokes solve problem , may want search neighborhood radio operator look antennas roof car talk problem things radio operator reduce interference please remember friendly approaching local radio operator person may may cause troubles , 'll get better cooperation help assume going helpful \( \) amazing accusations sometimes dealt grew blamed skip \( ghost pictures tv occur sunspot peaks \) , c b , dead grass \) , name btw , local operator try help whether directly responsible part good neighbor fcc views bad n't require consumer equipment makers take precautions last , usually tell ham radio vs cb ham operators required declare call \( sign \) every many minutes \( 10 \) hear call starting , w k 6 total characters , heard ham probably wo n't sign \( n't know 're even required \) fire police private ids douglas rand drand osf org osf motif dev snail 11 cambridge center , cambridge , 02142 disclaimer n't know osf agrees let 's vote amateur radio kc1kj
hl00 ns1 cc lehigh edu \( hou sheng lin \) subject laser vs bubblejet \? organization lehigh university lines 12 well , i'm sure would right place post , anyway , goes noticing current bubblejet printers offers resolution lot lower end laser printers offer 300x300 however , laser printers still seems significantly bubblejets \? missing something resolution thing \? sheng hl00 eecs lehigh edu hl00 cc lehigh edu hl00 lehigh edu
image mit edu \( peter \) subject mc sbi mixer reply musone acsu buffalo edu 's message 19 apr 93 21 10 14 gmt organization mit advanced television research program lines 24 musone acsu buffalo edu \( mark j musone \) writes p really good books fm theory along detailed electrical diagrams would help lot seen lot theory books circuits lot circuit books theory , one without help wide variety implementations mini circuits part mention doubly balanced diode mixer , active ones \( , fet \) seem popular consumer receivers might call mcl nice catalog universal answer wide coverage , theory practice , rf design arrl handbook , published american radio relay league , radio amateur organization technical bookstore order one book superb , lots accessible theory , construction projects , generally interesting stuff might also check solid state design radio amateur \( think \) , hayward someone sharper design test information subsystems like peter image mit edu mit advanced television research program
geva concave cs wits ac za \( geva \) subject make really short run cd 's summary want really short production run homemade music cds \? keywords cd mastering pressing short run music lines 13 organization wits university electrical engineering want able take bunch home made songs \( dat suitable master \) output short run \( 10 20 \) standard music cds would one cd recorders designed cd roms work purpose \? alternatively , service sort thing fee \? i'm much information possible alternatives \( cost , lead time , equipment required , procedure follow , etc \) email replies would appreciated geva geva department computer science , wits university geva concave cs wits ac za
sehari iastate edu \( babak sehari \) subject disks copy protected originator sehari marge ecss iastate edu organization iowa state university science technology , ames , iowa lines 10 wondering , copy protection techniques avaliable , effective \? anyone experience area \? highest regards , babak sehari
jung rz tu ilmenau de \( dirk \) subject , info wanted nntp posting host dali rz tu ilmenau de reply jung rz tu ilmenau de \( dirk \) organization technische universitaet ilmenau lines 12 anybody informations w 86 c 451 w 86 c 456 chips \( dil \) \? build io card pc thanks dirk dirk rz tu ilmenau de
vanderby mprgate mpr ca \( david vanderbyl \) subject power , signal surges home nntp posting host chip reply vanderby mprgate mpr ca \( david vanderbyl \) organization mpr teltech ltd lines 10 drand spinner osf org \( douglas rand \) writes hams legally run 1500 watts unlikely , however , ham would running kind power car possible either 'd need 300 amp alternator amplifier possible original poster said unlikely definately possible \( say batteries \? \)
rky57514 uxa cso uiuc edu \( tall cool one \) subject pads question go schematic pcb \? organization university illinois urbana lines 17 produced schematic pads logic , import pads pcb create pcb pattern \? way 've gotten work output netlist , import pads pcb another way \? n't see information instructions provided , might missed something suggestions would greatly appreciated thanks ! \( \) \( \) raymond internet nimbus uiuc edu rky57514 uxa cso uiuc edu ee student university illinois compuserve , urbana champaign \( \) \( \)
leland stanford edu \( ian chan \) subject need help organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa lines 24 need help 4 components diode know digi key newark sells , minimum order 25 ! anyone know get smaller orders diode , equivalent replacement \? transistor ditto transistor chip digi key , newark appear carry ths chip anyone know obtain \? chip yamaha chip decodes data \( cd dat \) obtain one \? thanks advance , ian
kolstad cae wisc edu \( joel kolstad \) subject laser vs bubblejet \? organization u wisconsin madison college engineering lines 29 article 1993apr20 ns1 cc lehigh edu hl00 ns1 cc lehigh edu \( hou sheng lin \) writes well , i'm sure would right place post , anyway , goes noticing current bubblejet printers offers resolution lot lower end laser printers offer 300x300 however , laser printers still seems significantly bubblejets \? missing something resolution thing \? bubblejets often little bit , whereas \( given half way decent toner , like hp 's stuff \) n't produce good output , n't look closely two tell laserjet output definitely superior hand , n't maintained properly use cheapest toner owner could find often produce awful output , much worse bubblejet \) one thing bubblejets , bubblejets bubblejets produce rather mediocre output \( hp 's little bubblejet \) , whereas produce really good looking output \( hp 's deskjets \) ibm canon produce really good style bubblejets joel kolstad p 're market portable printer , highly recommend hp portable deskjet , although 've heard portable canons good \( needed pcl support , \) deskjet portable , even get undocumented pcmcia card slot !
ravin eecg toronto edu \( \) subject decoupling caps onboard organization department electrical computer engineering , university toronto lines 10 \( posted friend \) hello , would like know one experience board decoupling capacitors \( inside cmos chip \) power lines say lot space left im pad limited design data effect oxide breakdown \? info pointers appreciated rs
dp cec1 wustl edu \( david prutchi \) subject eeg kit \? nntp posting host cec1 organization washington university , st louis mo lines 30 article cantrell sauron msfc nasa gov cantrell sauron msfc nasa gov \( eric cantrell \) writes awhile back someone posted information get kits build eeg anyone remember could get i'm interested getting info thanks advance eric cantrell sauron msfc nasa contact circuit cellar inc , 4 park st suite 12 , vernon , ct \( 203 \) 875 , fax \( 203 \) 872 inquire hal 4 eeg analyzer addition , want build system board level \( amplifiers , analog isolated \) contact group , p box 237 , , il fax \( 708 \) 948 david david prutchi hc1dt washington university prutchi mesun4 wustl edu campus box 1185 dp cec1 wustl edu one brookings drive st louis , mo 63130 4899
dp cec1 wustl edu \( david prutchi \) subject long distance ir detection nntp posting host cec1 organization washington university , st louis mo lines 88 article 1993apr20 dres dnd ca sburton dres dnd ca \( stan burton \) writes would like able detect angular position \( low accuracy \) ir emitting source distance 100 meters \( better \) daylight ir source could emitting signature i'm leaning toward 30 khz square wave 50 duty cycle considering use quadrant detector inc give information pan tilt head point sensor thus determine angles source considering wazing heck ir led \( \) , possibly motorola wazing would mean least 1 amp current pulses current duty cycle led drops 10 would need cycle five turn get 50 required anyone done something like \? stan burton \( dnd crad dres dtd mss agcg \) sburton dres dnd ca \( 403 \) 544 4737 dre suffield , box 4000 , medicine hat , ab , canada , t1a 8k6 method directly \( almost \) provide information require commonly used coordinate measurements human body \( eg system ab , sweden , system \? \? \) use lateral detectors lindholm oberg , 1974 , 1980 determine position spot light projected \( using camera lens \) surface , detector large four cathodes \( one four sides square detector crystal \) single anode \( back crystal \) spot light produce currents proportional position spot detector 's face let 's try ascii graphics 2 \( detector two cathodes detect linear position \) 1 cathode 1 xxxxx xxxxx light xxxxx divider output xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx 1 2 xxxxx gnd xxxxx xxxxx anode xxxxx cathode 2 2 dot light led source light , position projection given circuit regardless level tion \( divider used relative total received power \) circuit used presence sources light , way tuning sample msec background signal , light led equal time sample signal separately difference two position led sells linear 2 lateral detectors , also sell required signal processing electronics ready made systems others cheap lindholm , l e , k e oberg , instrument remote line movement monitoring , , 1 , 94 95 , 1974 , h j , e b , opto electronic \( \) measure ments two three dimensional space preliminary report , bull pros research , 46 52 , 1980 probably technique provide much accurate measurement need , think simplicity beats scanning quadrant detector pan tilt system reach zero difference david david prutchi hc1dt washington university prutchi mesun4 wustl edu campus box 1185 dp cec1 wustl edu one brookings drive st louis , mo 63130 4899
kushmer bnlux1 bnl gov \( christopher kushmerick \) subject infra red position encoders organization national laboratory distribution na lines 16 looking information infra red based position encoders idea would bounce infrared source wall device would read distance preferable would rs 232 addressable leads \? chris kushmerick kushmer bnlux1 bnl gov found niche life , n't fit
pierson enet dec com \( dave pierson \) subject swr meter cb radios organization digital equipment corporation lines 31 nntp posting host article 734953838 insane apana org au , peter insane apana org au \( peter tryndoch \) writes devil meter cb radios td ssave ole cdac com \( devil reincarnate \) td organization cdac , wa td td good choice cb \? 1 4 1 8 wave \? td read installation instructions 1 4 wave antenna , td suggested use swr tune channel 12 td channel 32 minimum reading question , channel td 12 32 \? best antenna one let wave \( probably best explanation , rest makes sense \) one wave \( btw \) yes common cb pattern different \( sort , four main best 1 2 wave antenna , followed 1 4 , 1 8 etc use anything 1 4 wave transmitting uncommon \( usual rubber duck uses coil fool looking like quarter wave arrl antenna handbook , good basic book thanks dave pierson facts , accurately manage , digital equipment corporation opinions , 40 old bolton rd nra stow , mass usa pierson enet dec com read everything , , credit , written nothing j raffles
chin ee ualberta ca \( chin \) subject need info dsp project summary general info building dsp project manipulate music keywords dsp , , , music , project nntp posting host bode ee ualberta ca organization university alberta , edmonton canada lines 10 want start dsp project music stereo cassette chip set , development kit compiler mix music \? ideally , system converters dsp compiler rough estimate cost appreciated thanks advance regards , chin e mail address chin bode ee ualberta ca
gray uucp \( kelly gray \) subject pinout needed til311 organization college technology dept lines 29 according ti databook , pinouts til311 display follows pin 1 led supply voltage pin 2 latch data input b pin 3 latch data input pin 4 left decimal point cathode pin 5 latch strobe input pin 6 omitted pin 7 common ground pin 8 blanking input pin 9 omitted pin 10 right decimal point cathode pin 11 omitted pin 12 latch data input pin 13 latch data input c pin 14 logic supply voltage , vcc logic supply voltage 5v 60 led supply also 5v , need particularly well regulated led drivers chip use constant current source , led intensity affected supply voltage kelly gray gray uucp \( preferred \) gray admin ca
mblock reed edu \( matt block \) subject disks copy protected article reed 1993apr20 230749 12821 organization reed college , portland , oregon lines 36 article sehari marge ecss iastate edu sehari iastate edu \( babak sehari \) writes wondering , copy protection techniques avaliable , effective \? anyone experience area \? highest regards , babak sehari uh oh umm , number copy protection schemes involve modifying physical media , involve encryption schemes , c ones existed course computing successful time recall , however , near monthly releases new ways crack copy protection scheme latest releases fact , none completely secure , anywhere near less difficult crack , already cracked guess saying question difficult , impossible , answer exactly want know \? need good one project working \? secure must \? trying crack one someone else used \? probably make suggestions , assuming activity strictly legal \( general , bad idea , legally , tamper copy protection also lead corruption files necessarily back ups \( copy protected , \) devestating \) absolutely ideas practical applications , merely curious \? please clear questions , 'll try help much incidentally , uh oh top indicative dread anyone watched friends hacking equipment carted feels asked hack area wrought dangers , many include breaking law , least addressing \( one side \) matt
elec canterbury ac nz \( chris moseley \) subject building uv flashlight nntp posting host canterbury ac nz organization electrical engineering , university canterbury , new zealand lines 23 jhawk panix com \( john hawkinson \) writes main question bulb get uv bulbs \? need lot power \? etc , etc ones seen fluorescent tubes maybe could find small tube go one hand held lanterns \? one thing friend mine mentioned something near uv light cheaper get actual uv light anyone know referring \? blue lights ultra violet \( definition \? \) goes blue end spectrum people see radio spectrum \( x rays , cosmic rays etc \) possibly could get light fringe visibility \( people false eye lenses see easily , since 's lenses soak uv \) , however since people use uv get things , near blue less energetic , would probably work well , worked \( lecture basic atomic physics fits , electron transitions \( quantum \) stuff
kludge grissom larc nasa gov \( scott dorsey \) subject power , signal surges home organization nasa langley research center reptile farm lines 41 nntp posting host grissom larc nasa gov article drand spinner osf org drand spinner osf org \( douglas rand \) writes article randall woof randall informix com \( randall rhea \) writes hams legally run 1500 watts unlikely , however , ham would running kind power car ham rigs possible either 'd need 300 amp alternator amplifier see need slow downgrade , hit push talk button , indeed possible good friend mine running 1 kw pep car yes , second alternator yes , calls rig electronic brake since engine noticeably slows key car , unfortunately , much computer junk hood 's astonishingly sensitive rfi key 2w ht engine hood open , car loses timing due rf leaking distributor pickup poor design , however , point ham radio operators usually quite willing help interference detected remember interference wasted power put 1w tv band , 's 1w putting band trying transmit , 1w often difference nice card hanging wall , nothing , however , usually helpful illegal , however , stop operation inform problem rest stop operation inform local fcc office problem \( writing , giving details addresses \) last , usually tell ham radio vs cb ham operators required declare call \( sign \) every many minutes \( 10 \) hear call starting , w k 6 total characters , heard ham probably wo n't sign \( n't know 're even required \) fire police private ids good advice hams frequently give call , never use handle less apt use immense amounts profanity well , 's say n't time time scott
avm1993 sigma tamu edu \( , alexander \) subject digital voltmeter work \? organization texas university , academic computing services lines 34 distribution world nntp posting host sigma tamu edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 hello , let introduce problem measure wave \( voltage \) digital voltmeter , using ac mode , output rms value \( peak value 2 squared \) right \? measure square wave mode \( ac \) , output equal peak value , actually , upper flat boundary wave assumed , digital voltmeter makes kind integration input value , divides wave period right \? , used measure square wave , distorted high frequency harmonics ideally , output , output value 10 previous one ! \? nature output value \? voltmeter actually measure \? show \? related question \( less important \) advantages disadvantages digital compare analog ones \? thank attention , could mail opinion avm1993 zeus tamu edu open discussion would appreciate either way alexander v power system automation laboratory phone office \( 409 \) 845 department electrical engineering phone home \( 409 \) 846 texas university fax \( 409 \) 862 college station , tx , usa internet avm1993 zeus tamu edu
fy chalmers se \( anders \) subject need find number phone line organization chalmers university technology lines 11 article mindlink bc ca sean oliver mindlink bc ca \( sean oliver \) writes joseph mich writes 890 phone company read number phone live , use number dial 211 result ny city , number dial 958 seems different different areas anders
gunnarh dhhalden \( gunnar \) subject disks copy protected lines 25 nntp posting host organization ostfold college article sehari marge ecss iastate edu sehari iastate edu \( babak sehari \) writes wondering , copy protection techniques avaliable , effective \? anyone experience area \? highest regards , babak sehari one easiest , really used ways , mark specific sector installation disk bad easy get around , though , knowledge hw hacking , 'normal' users \( yes lowly key \) n't whatever , please use hardware key popular years ago , stink ! ! mail mail gunnarh dhhalden snail mail gunnar gunnarh dhhalden 17 n norway disclaimer posting may seem like insignificant rubbish first glance , read lines , surprised discover annals burt , world peace , oxford advanced readers dictionary , quantum physics made easy , easy use step step make time travelling device actually works
rand org \( ed hall \) subject building uv flashlight organization rand lines 26 nntp posting host ives rand org article panix com jhawk panix com \( john hawkinson \) writes one thing friend mine mentioned something near uv light cheaper get actual uv light anyone know referring \? n't want get semantic argument , contrary postings near uv light actual uv light near means close visible spectrum \( e relatively long wavelength \) , nearly uv \( i'm sure figure far uv \) regular flashlight bulbs emit tiny amounts uv near end spectrum , filter used remove visible light thus create weak uv source stronger sources going require gas \( probably mercury vapor \) discharge tubes \( fluorescent tubes uv phosphor \) careful , though strong uv sources cause physiological damage , especially eyes shorter wavelengths dangerous would n't project beam like flashlight , replacing tubes portable fluorescent lantern uv tubes would relatively cheap way create portable source would bright enough useful , dangerously ed hall rand org
vanderby mprgate mpr ca \( david vanderbyl \) subject power , signal surges home nntp posting host chip reply vanderby mprgate mpr ca \( david vanderbyl \) organization mpr teltech ltd lines 15 kludge grissom larc nasa gov \( scott dorsey \) writes car , unfortunately , much computer junk hood 's astonishingly sensitive rfi key 2w ht engine hood open , car loses timing due rf leaking distributor pickup poor design news article little ago reporting type car \( volvo \? \) found stall used certain brand model cellular phone seem remember car recalled fix problem hmmmmm possibilities police pursuit vehicle , maybe bombard high energy rfi \)
johnh macadam mpce mq edu au \( john haddy \) subject help wanted organization macquarie university lines 54 distribution world nntp posting host macadam mpce mq edu au article 1993apr20 csc canberra edu au , student canberra edu au \( stephen \( \) \) writes could someone please tell 1 4 decoder 1 4 know link 2 get 8 output circuit , link 5 make 1 16 multiplexer sorry seems like lame question , i'm newbie electronics , circuit please make mail possible thanx , \( student canberra edu au \) 1 4 decoder need 1 4 , although many commercial ssi implementations allow use one strictly , 1 4 decoder need take two lines make one output change state , according inputs , hand , uses two control inputs determine four outputs reflect state input signal three inputs required decoder used equipped output enable input , since used data input \( e g high , outputs high low , selected \( control inputs \) output low \) eight way decoder created using high order bit \( bit 2 \) select two four way enabled thus achieve aim one output eight reflecting input bits note method cannot used create true eight way , since data input \( enable line four way decoder \) left commit enable lines intended purpose sixteen way decoder obviously requires four , four way decoders , plus mechanism enable one four time therefore , use fifth decoder , attached two high order bits , provide four enable lines course , two low order bits must connected parallel four final stage decoders please give credit submit homework johnh electronics department \( \) \( \( \( school mpce macquarie university sydney , australia 2109 email johnh mpce mq edu au , ph 61 2 805 8959 , fax 61 2 805 8983
baden inqmind bison mb ca \( baden de bari \) subject mosfet help organization inquiring mind bbs 1 204 488 1607 lines 28 since i'm keen area hooking , i'm asking help know better hook 12v , 1a stepper line one , unless take however 've got 24 stepper sort circuitry would involved \( small schematic would probably helpfull \) also , 've looked ti , wondering use suggested \( replying message \) current limiting circuitry 7 package illustrated schematic \( would hopefully help \) hmm different request thanks inspiration comes baden sys6626 bison mb ca \( \) baden inqmind bison mb ca seek baden de bari unknown baden inqmind bison mb ca inquiring mind bbs , winnipeg , manitoba 204 488 1607
whit carson u washington edu \( john whitmore \) subject minimal boolean circuit article shelley distribution usa organization university washington , seattle lines 41 nntp posting host carson u washington edu article 1993apr9 ringer cs utsa edu ringer cs utsa edu \( daniel \) writes suppose boolean function minimal sum products \( derived k map something \) , like f \( , b , c , \) bc books logic design consulted seem imply analysis ends factoring term function , get fewer gates f \( , b , c , \) bc \( \) , yields 9 gates yes , gates important part timing considerations ttl gate basic structure , inversion sum product exactly one gate delay reason find minimal sum products matches hardware optimization positive gate \( 9 gate solution uses \) two gate delays \( 's another gate delay second term \) second solution , simpler logic symbols , expected something less optimal real world ecl similar ttl , support gate minimum delay \( unlike ttl , get true inverse outputs using ecl \) pals basically large programmable gates \( choice internal connections various sections , perhaps latches \) , minimum sum products also way logic design pals 's easy design logic gates , software packages claim allow , take mess gates \( series logic ics \) produce description logic cell array job 's xact software treating logic block macro , expanding , john whitmore
blockley csu murdoch edu au \( adrian blockley \) subject integrated type lines 15 nntp posting host murdoch edu au buy 1 2 chips \( pref australia \) \? name address \? dan adrian blockley ! may say something profound environmental science ! one day murdoch university ! western australia , ! blockley murdoch edu au ! phone 09 360 !
jeff nsr hp com \( jeff \) subject digital voltmeter work \? organization hewlett packard lines 66 distribution world nntp posting host nsr hp com x newsreader tin version 1 1 2 pl7 , alexander \( avm1993 sigma tamu edu \) wrote hello , let introduce problem measure wave \( voltage \) digital voltmeter , using ac mode , output rms value \( peak value 2 squared \) right \? measure square wave mode \( ac \) , output equal peak value , actually , upper flat boundary wave assumed , digital voltmeter makes kind integration input value , divides wave period right \? , used measure square wave , distorted high frequency harmonics ideally , output , output value 10 previous one ! \? nature output value \? voltmeter actually measure \? show \? rms readings unless dvm says 's measuring rms , 's probably average voltage input diode rectified measured dc says 's rms measures square triangle etc incorrectly , 's measuring average correction 's true sine waves \( e \( 0 707 0 63 \) \) want correct rms \( \) waveform , need true rms dvm dmm literally root mean square calculation either analog digital circuitry related question \( less important \) advantages disadvantages digital compare analog ones \? last significant advantage analog \( imo \) able see signal changing time \( e g checking electrolytic capacitors \) anymore , dmm , etc duplicate thank attention , could mail opinion avm1993 zeus tamu edu open discussion would appreciate either way alexander v power system automation laboratory phone office \( 409 \) 845 department electrical engineering phone home \( 409 \) 846 texas university fax \( 409 \) 862 college station , tx , usa internet avm1993 zeus tamu edu jeff semiconductor test equipment systems engineer hewlett packard \( 415 \) 694 jeff nsr hp com jeff nsr hp com
dnewman lynx dac northeastern edu \( david f newman \) subject arcade style buttons joysticks organization division academic computing , northeastern university , boston , 02115 usa lines 8 hi , anyone tell possible purchase controls found arcade style games many projects working would greatly augmented could implement thanx advance dave dnewman lynx dac northeastern edu
elliott optilink com \( paul elliott \) subject analog switches balanced distribution na organization dsc optilink access products lines 53 article msf msf arizona edu \( michael fulbright \) writes trying build synchronous demodulator 've hit snag application want able change gain op amp amplifier 1 1 , via digital input obvious way 've come use analog switches adjust gain op amp analog switch experience 4066 unfortunately want switch ac signal goes 5v 5v , 4066 positive signals carrier signal varies 0v 5v want input signal feeding input signal thru amp gain 1 carrier 5v , thru amp gain 1 carrier 0v output low pass filtered believe called lock detection well synchronous look triple 2 1 transmission gate analog multiplexer , positive negative power supplies \( run single ended supply well \) dual supplies , logic inputs still range ground \( 0 volts \) neat \( well , think \) design polarity amplifier input opamp output control x \( analog switch \) gnd resistors equal value analog switch closed , amp gain one switch open , non gain one clean circuit trim input offset current hurts balance \( would show carrier feed \) high frequencies , slew rate opamp might cause problems , especially n't symmetrical \( usually n't \) paul elliott dsc optilink petaluma , ca usa uunet , pyramid , ! optilink ! elliott elliott optilink com used think , i'm sure
world std com \( roger williams \) subject 68hc16 public domain software \? organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 1 n't motorola something bbs yet \? \( 512 891 \)
sehari iastate edu \( babak sehari \) subject disks copy protected originator sehari 213 cc iastate edu organization iowa state university science technology , ames , iowa lines 55 1993apr20 230749 12821 reed edu mblock reed edu \( matt block \) writes article sehari marge ecss iastate edu sehari iastate edu \( babak sehari \) writes wondering , copy protection techniques avaliable , effective \? anyone experience area \? highest regards , babak sehari uh oh umm , number copy protection schemes involve modifying physical media , involve encryption schemes , c ones existed course computing successful time recall , however , near monthly releases new ways crack copy protection scheme latest releases fact , none completely secure , anywhere near less difficult crack , already cracked guess saying question difficult , impossible , answer exactly want know \? need good one project working \? secure must \? trying crack one someone else used \? probably make suggestions , assuming activity strictly legal \( general , bad idea , legally , tamper copy protection also lead corruption files necessarily back ups \( copy protected , \) devestating \) absolutely ideas practical applications , merely curious \? please clear questions , 'll try help much incidentally , uh oh top indicative dread anyone watched friends hacking equipment carted feels asked hack area wrought dangers , many include breaking law , least addressing \( one side \) matt written program want market would like certain degree protection , since main individuals know laser hole burning method , hardware key method , however , software going cost 15 00 , afford also , low price afford people make many copy software well , guess say upto 20 copying ok however , want someone get copy pctools copy software course , never meant forbid true hackers copying , since develope better program anyway highest regards , babak sehari
patter dasher cc bellcore com \( patterson , george r \) subject power , signal surges home organization bellcore , livingston , nj lines 20 article 1993apr20 24632 mprgate mpr ca vanderby mprgate mpr ca \( david vanderbyl \) writes kludge grissom larc nasa gov \( scott dorsey \) writes car , unfortunately , much computer junk hood 's astonishingly sensitive rfi hmmmmm possibilities police pursuit vehicle , maybe bombard high energy rfi \) right cops buying antique muscle cars chase cars otherwise police cars die ! get attention large animal , elephant bureaucracy , helps know george patterson part feels pain sure , though , want full attention kelvin
dale access digex com \( dale farmer \) subject building uv flashlight organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 31 nntp posting host access digex net x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 john hawkinson \( jhawk panix com \) wrote yes , know sounds crazy call urge call want n't ask \) anyway , 'd like build uv flashlight , cheaply flashlight means reasonably portable , could power pack necessary main question bulb get uv bulbs \? need lot power \? etc , etc i'm concerned whether 's long wave short wave \( hey , anyone cheap source bulbs , 'll take \) check medical supply catalog , thing looking called woods lamp \( check woods sign , certain skin conditions \( sp \) uv light \) come disposable like types larger ac powered types also used eye examinations , dye introduced surface eye , uv , shows scratches clearly would otherwise difficult detect \( dye called , normal light appears , leaves mild burning sensation eye 10 15 minutes , tears flush fun dale farmer
msuvx1 memst edu \( mark c langston \) subject negative logic high \? summary help ! ! ! distribution world organization memphis state university lines 28 may sound like simple minded question , first time 've ever need 've designing relatively simple chip circuits based things like \( know , light , emit logic high , etc \) anyway , 've got lying around , wanted things using digital logic know pulse signal everything , one problem i'm assuming need negative \( yes , negative \) logic high get thing turn direction opposite direction would turn normal logic high negative logic high \( 've seen schematics \) thing active low , \? i'm using bi polar power source , would get negative logic high thing \? need three signals available logic high , logic low , negative logic high help would greatly appreciated also , please reply via email , never seem time read \( \) group lately thanks much , mark memstvx1 memst edu
csd4 csd uwm edu \( randall ding \) subject adcom ir sensor repeater spec 's \? organization computing services division , university wisconsin milwaukee lines 48 nntp posting host 129 89 7 4 article hp col col hp com johnr col hp com \( john \) writes anyone know details interface \( 5 wire din \) ir remote sensor \( 2 wire ir repeater \) adcom 500ii preamp \? adcom part numbers xr 500ii , 500ii , ira 500ii cursory physical examination pre amp connector indicates connector \( 5 pin din \) may provide \( viewed connector front \) 5 1 \( pin \? \) \? v \? \? \? 4 2 \( pin \? \) \? v \? \? \? 3 \( pin 3 \) signal ground \( pin \? \) signal \? v pp , \? polarity , \? drive \( pin \? \) signal drive repeater led \( drives resistor \) \? v pp assume repeater connectors \( mini plugs \) drive ir repeater led 's directly true \? anyone fill \? 's thanks 's scoop get home brew receiver working , would willing share rest us \? always wanted build never time fool around design pin 1 signal ground pin 2 signal pin 3 always hot 6 volts pin 4 6 volts , hot preamp turned pin 5 infrared repeater connectors infrared repeater jacks back preamp connected anything inside preamp except 5 pin connector pin 5 150 ohm resistor two jacks , 1 5k pin 5 ground signal pin 2 preamp summed built ir receiver use chip called amplify signal would imagine logical way would duplicate circuit use external receiver need info , let know randy csd4 csd uwm edu
pat fegmania wustl edu \( pat niemeyer \) subject radar detector detectors \? organization washington university saint louis , mo usa lines 11 reply pat fegmania wustl edu nntp posting host fegmania wustl edu originator pat fegmania brands quieter others \? yes radar detectors less detectable radar detector detectors \) bel 966 looked manual yesterday indeed claim undetectable rdd 's pat
gerrit sub org \( gerrit \) subject 6551 compatibility distribution world organization lao project \( private uucp site \) lines 31 article pr world std com , internet surfer writes one know 6551 timing pin compatible 6551 , able operate 2 mhz system , 6551 take 1 mhz without problems see made mos csg , take , seems 6551 bug cts rts handshaking need suitable pin replacement put serial card possibly buffered version perhaps \? know fixed version 6551 different possibilities work around bug easiest tie cts gnd use dsr dcd cts easy fix software , dsr bit 6 dcd ist bit 5 status register \( read 6551 low high \) using cts line lead big trouble 6551 instantly stops transmission cts goes high means , may get half byte gerrit gerrit 16 germany logical adresses uucp gerrit sub org fido \( 2 106 9 \) ever visited aliens , hard explain , , intelligent enough build atomic weapons stupid enough \( taken geo special space , page 88 91 \)
gerrit sub org \( gerrit \) subject 's good ic rs232 ttl signals \? \? distribution world organization lao project \( private uucp site \) lines 26 article scraps uucp , frank holden ka3uww writes i'm looking ic convert rs232 voltage levels ttl voltage levels something relatively inexpensive would nice , anyone suggestion \? \? thanks well looks digi key sells chip number want selling 3 50 sure needs two way converter \? wants rs232 ttl would suggest , cheap \( 0 80 dm germany \) chip needs 5v ttl rs232 converter uses 12v 12v btw compatibles seem expensive usa paid 2 95 dm \( made harris \) , absolutely compatible gerrit gerrit 16 germany logical adresses uucp gerrit sub org fido \( 2 106 9 \) ever visited aliens , hard explain , , intelligent enough build atomic weapons stupid enough \( taken geo special space , page 88 91 \)
panix com \( robert \) subject electronic parts nyc \? organization panix public access unix , nyc lines 23 sun panix com panix com \( fritz mueller \) writes moved nyc wondered electronics hackers could point places nyc sell individual electronic components \( switches , pots , transformers , caps , try cables chips let dig cables chips 121 fulton street , 's near south street wall street phone 212 619 800 843 however , ordering , exact 's good chance 'll screw otherwise , 're pretty good , deliver cheers , rob robert voice 212 947 6507 every day adventure , one step beyond email panix com every moment challenge
panix com \( fritz mueller \) subject electronic parts nyc \? organization panix public access unix , nyc lines 18 hey moved nyc wondered electronics hackers could point places nyc sell individual electronic components \( switches , pots , transformers , caps , transistors , etc \) radio shack n't count \( almost selection , prices outrageous ! \) particular interest audio components \( amplifier ic 's , power , output transformers , tubes tube sockets , pan pots , , etc \) checked lot street canal street far luck missing places , looking wrong place , resort mail order \? thanks advance ,
stevens madvlsi columbia edu \( andy stevens \) subject decoupling caps onboard organization columbia university x posted greece madvlsi columbia edu nntp posting host sol ctr columbia edu lines 14 article 1993apr20 762 jarvis csri toronto edu , ravin eecg toronto edu \( \) writes would like know one experience board decoupling capacitors \( inside cmos chip \) power lines say lot space left im pad limited design data effect oxide breakdown \? info pointers appreciated dec new alpha chip i'm sure could call ask \( haha \) actually , details article ieee journal solid state circuits think sometime around nov 1992 andy
kolstad cae wisc edu \( joel kolstad \) subject disks copy protected organization u wisconsin madison college engineering lines 38 article sehari 213 cc iastate edu sehari iastate edu \( babak sehari \) writes written program want market would like certain degree protection , since main individuals know laser hole burning method , hardware key method , however , software going cost 15 00 , afford also , low price afford people make many copy software well , guess say upto 20 copying ok however , want someone get copy pctools copy software course , never meant forbid true hackers copying , since develope better program anyway would n't bother copy protection , program good , pirates stripped protection distributing stripped version well week hardware methods prevent j random loser using copy ii pc pirate software , n't stop anyone knows people enough connections real pirates able defeat check hole code may want price software \( depending \) tad higher price change 15 25 probably would turn potentials buyers , way could tolerate pirates \( whose numbers n't change price \) 20 pirating figure ha , ha course , lot pirates thing pirated software , even never use , perhaps really would n't count towards 20 even , 20 awfully low joel kolstad p assume 're talking pc software 're talking unix , hp 48 , something else somewhat obscure , copy protection might slightly viable alternative
lynx dac northeastern edu \( mark \) subject dayton hamfest organization northeastern university , boston , 02115 , usa distribution usa lines 13 booked hotel \( red roof inn \) last week cincinnati \( blue ash , northern tip metro cincy area \) chose reasons 1 hotels near dayton booked solid 2 hotel costing 28 night 3 one 4 rooms left night reserved 4 cincinnati probably night dayton intend hit entertainment dusk ! anyone suggestions , please let know hot spots thanks ! mark
skipper ersys edmonton ab ca \( mark bevan \) subject need find number phone line reply skipper ersys edmonton ab ca \( mark bevan \) organization lost arc ! edmonton , alberta , canada lines 21 alee ecs umass edu writes greetings ! situation phone jack mounted wall n't know number line n't want call operator place trace question certain device use find number line \? thanks response al dial 511 sound tell number skipper ersys edmonton ab ca \( mark bevan \) lost arc ! edmonton , alberta , canada
wpi wpi edu \( christopher james bruno \) subject coil organization worcester polytechnic institute lines 11 nntp posting host wpi wpi edu hey everyone , i'm new newsgroup please excuse dumb question want build crossover stereo need coil inductance 6 \( actually need 4 \) wondering anyone knew could buy make 've called many places one find sells answers e mail thanks advance chris
dave imax imax com \( dave \) subject question 120vac outlet wiring organization imax corporation , mississauga canada lines 24 jeh cmkrnl com writes hmmm orange isolated ground outlets \( often used computer rooms \) wired \? require two separate grounds one ground goes ground pin outlet , ground wire connected outlet 's mounting tabs \( thus grounds box faceplate screw metal faceplate , \) box faceplate ground goes normal distribution panel ground outlet ground pin wire generally connected insulated distribution panel , turn , connected building entrance main ground wire two separate ground systems connected together building 's service entrance one also connected every grounded piece electrical equipment whole building , isolated ground shared equipment plugged isolated ground outlets panel someone happens accidentally short one phase feeder ground , main building ground likely lot noise breaker trips fuse blows , isolated ground remain relatively noise free
mtearle gu uwa edu au \( mark \) subject looking electronics dept info austrailia organization university western australia lines 37 nntp posting host mackerel gu uwa edu au ac kr \( kim \) writes hi netters ! looking list universities austrailia , electronics department considering spend year research austrailia communication area interested mobile communication areas spread spectrum communications etc n't information austrailian universities anybody recommend good university co ation area \? comments welcomed ! suggest university western australia perth great , people great electronic engineering department great first year student n't know much projects know good reputation fields dsp communications ever heard \? people ex uwa gives indication department like information email swanee ee uwa edu au request able tell info write department electrical electronic engineering university western australia highway 6009 western australia australia mark mtearle tartarus uwa edu au mark email mtearle tartarus uwa edu au
mtearle gu uwa edu au \( mark \) subject need find number phone line organization university western australia lines 14 nntp posting host mackerel gu uwa edu au well australia dial get number read back live country include area code nearest capital city eg wa 09 mark mark email mtearle tartarus uwa edu au
squish endor uucp \( shishin yamada \) subject atari 2600 processors organization aiken computation lab , harvard university lines 42 article 93110 psuvm psu edu psuvm psu edu writes anyone know processor atari 2600 used \? i'm looking th e pin outs atari 2600 schematics anyone idea could find related information \? also , rom chips used fo 2600 games still available , \? please email responces , important thanks million btw anyone works worked atari , could really use help old 2600 , please email willing help alot ! ! peter atari 2600 used 6502 cpu , like entire 8 bit line \( 400 , 800 , 1200 , 1400 , 1440 , 130xe , computers , well 5200 game machine \) 2600 extra asic chips basically modified graphics chips pia 's joysticks later model 2600 might incorporated many chips one , weight machines part count decreased lot years additionally , think 2600 used 2k , 4k , 8k rom games idea much ram work , would hazard guess 2 4k ram think comes lot hacking 800 130xe computers occasionally hacking 2600 \( fixing monitor composite video use , audio \) also make cartridge less system stored rom ram cartridge could loaded prior time \( way backup cartridges \) 've heard setup like games could bought \( cheaply \) fsk recorded tapes , would load special ram , play anyways , 're interested looking 2600 equipment , 've got two 2600 machines around \( one composite v modified \) , lotsa cartridges willing sell reasonable offer shipping handling n't play anymore , since going computers nintendo \( interested \? \) hope helps question might grab 6502 's , since must fun play \( microcontrollers \) shishin squish yamada squish endor harvard edu
panix com \( harvey \) subject electronic parts nyc \? organization panix public access unix , nyc lines 11 also couple three places west 45th fifth sixth harvey harvey panix com n't get smart except asking stupid questions 718 258
ketil edb tih \( ketil albertsen , tih \) subject disks copy protected organization h p posting front end conference v 92 05 15 1 20 \( running ms windows \) lines 20 article 1993apr20 230749 12821 reed edu , mblock reed edu \( matt block \) writes guess saying question difficult , impossible , answer exactly want know \? need good one project working \? secure must \? trying crack one someone else used \? probably make suggestions , assuming activity strictly legal \( general , bad idea , legally , tamper copy protection also lead corruption files necessarily back ups \( copy protected , \) devestating \) absolutely ideas practical applications , merely curious \? please clear questions , 'll try help much may interpret offer volunteer editor copy protection faq \? quite sure alone welcoming initiative ! volunteer ask questions , provide answers \) ketil albertsen
frode dxcern cern ch \( frode \) subject card reader info keywords magstripe , card reader , american magnetics , magnetics reply frode dxcern cern ch organization cern european lab particle physics lines 26 somebody please help information american magnetics corporation magstripe card reader recently bought locally surplus dealer rear following information american magnetics corporation carson , ca , usa magstripe card reader model 41 , p n fitted cable rs232 cannon 25 pin connector end separate power connector like used wall frode frode phone 41 22 cern , sl fax 41 22 ch 1211 geneva 23 e mail frode dxcern cern ch switzerland cern ch
elr trintex uucp \( ed ravin \) subject electronic parts nyc \? organization \? lines 19 electronics , 45th street 5th 6th one left entire district electronics stores little expensive trans electronics , canal street near 7th ave lots surplus type stuff several electronics surplus type places still canal street think bronx wholesale radio still business fordham road far arthur avenue bronx also bronx northeastern \( northwestern \? northeast electronics \? \) jerome avenue near bedford park boulevard 're mostly tv parts supply house , building cb radio projects , quite handy ed ravin tv cop fires gun three times hour real cop prodigy services co fires gun every five years white plains , ny c l e r w h e r e 1 914 993 4737 elr trintex uucp elr trintex uunet uu net
wayne uva386 schools virginia edu \( tony wayne \) subject speaker impedance help needed organization virginia 's public education network \( charlottesville \) lines 7 want connect small home made speaker headphone jack macintosh lc experiment dc resistance speaker 1 ohm ideas safely \? think need kind impedance transformer something \? tony wayne uva386 school virginia edu
cfb fc hp com \( charlie brett \) subject fet \( sp \? \) nntp posting host hpfcmgw fc hp com organization hewlett packard fort collins site x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 5 lines 5 anyone ever heard fet \( , , \) fet replacement modules vacuum tubes i'm looking applications used charlie brett hp ft collins
cfb fc hp com \( charlie brett \) subject los angeles freeway traffic reports nntp posting host hpfcmgw fc hp com organization hewlett packard fort collins site x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 5 lines 21 driving middle nowhere , picked knbr , 1070 , clear channel station based los angeles ad claiming able get traffic flow information thousands traffic sensors caltrans placed pavement caltrans sell info \? knbr exclusive \? 's deal \? doug former l commuter claar right second time , knx believe , also listen knx evenings colorado ! 's kind fun driving country listening traffic jams 405 back original question yes , sensors past every ramp ramp freeways 're sensors used \( coils pavement \) might want give caltrans call even ask bill \( knx 's traffic reporter \) doubt anyone get information , would worth asking case get charlie brett \( former la commuter \) ft collins , co
v064mb9k ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( neil b gandler \) subject radio electronics free information card organization university buffalo lines 8 news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host ubvmsb cc buffalo edu radio electronics free information cards work send general information companies advertise magazine also give sign catalog neil gandler
bob kc2wz bubble org \( bob \) subject subliminal message flashing tv organization color computer 3 tandy 's machine lines 13 logic camp clarkson edu \( rich \) says hi research subliminal suggestion psychology paper , read one researcher flashed hidden messages tv screen 1 200ths second possible \? thought take look alt folklore urban thread subliminal messages tv fact subliminal messages n't work aside , image ca n't flashed tv screen fast enough noticed bob , kc2wz internet bob kc2wz bubble org nail 21 bates way , westfield , nj uucp ! uunet ! kc2wz ! bob friends n't let friends run dos microware
wtm uhura neoucom edu \( bill mayhew \) subject laser vs bubblejet \? organization northeastern ohio universities college medicine lines 29 fyi actual horizontal dot placement hp deskjet 1 inch electronics dynamics ink cartridge , however , limit generating dots 300 per inch almost paper , ink 1 inch anyway method depositing fusing toner printer results much less spread ink drop technology n't take much investigation see mechanical electronic complement laser printer complex inexpensive ink jet printers recall also laser printers offer much higher throughput 10 ppm laser versus 1 ppm ink jet printer something else think cost consumables life printer 3000 page yield toner cartridge us 75 80 discount hp high capacity \( 500 1000 page yield \) cartridges us 22 discount could life cycle printer consumables laser printers less ink jet printers getting progressively closer two technologies laser printers usually higher duty cycles pages per month longer product replacement cycles bill mayhew neoucom computer services department rootstown , oh 44272 9995 usa phone 216 325 2511 wtm uhura neoucom edu \( 140 220 1 1 \) 146 580 n8wed
ragee vdoe386 vak12ed edu \( randy agee \) subject radar detector detectors \? organization virginia 's public education network \( richmond \) lines 27 several years back one radar detectors manufacturers , defiance virginia 's law radar detectors , passed thousands fake cardboard radar detectors truck stops near virginia state lines time radar detector detectors ! sure impact would imagine enforcement law visually sighting radar detector became difficult impossible ! said earlier , efforts throw eliminate va law radar detectors vain fact , effective jan 1 , 1993 , fine possession radar detector accessable driver vehicle va 250 00 noted interesting dr 100 2 meter ham transceiver make cheap radar detector scream ! sure range , obvious brake lights least 50 feet 50 watts ! \) randy agee point , probably pondered p box 20th floor meaning life , came virginia department education satisfactory answer , richmond , va stood test time , shrugged phone \( 804 \) 225 mightily , muttered beats heck ragee vdoe386 vak12ed edu , ordered
wtm uhura neoucom edu \( bill mayhew \) subject disks copy protected organization northeastern ohio universities college medicine lines 23 write good manual go software hassle manual offset simplicity purchasing package 15 also , consider offering inexpensive attractive registered users instance , coffee mug could produce mail incentive couple dollars , consider pricing product 17 95 're lucky 20 instances program use non licensed users best approach estimate loss accomodate price structure sure hurts legitimate users , bad retailers charge loss onto paying customers software industry unless product exceptionally unique , using ostensibly copy proof disk send customers bill mayhew neoucom computer services department rootstown , oh 44272 9995 usa phone 216 325 2511 wtm uhura neoucom edu \( 140 220 1 1 \) 146 580 n8wed
csulo csv warwick ac uk \( mr j brown \) subject floopy drives update ! organization computing services , university warwick , uk lines 26 distribution world nntp posting host clover csv warwick ac uk many thanks replied appeal info drive 3 5 ! ! information modify use bbc b computer change speed 600 300 rpm \( tried \) also change 8 components rec play section allow lower data rate \( , designed \) also change recording current allow low data rate rev speed ! hopefully sort bad 9 quid \( normally 32 quid upwards \) drive jvc series drive michael brown csulo csv warwick ac uk mjb dcs warwick ac uk lost interest \? \? 's bad 've lost apathy !
rhi hi \( \) subject disks copy protected lines 31 nntp posting host rhi hi 1993apr21 lumina edb tih ketil edb tih \( ketil albertsen , tih \) writes may interpret offer volunteer editor copy protection faq \? quite sure alone welcoming initiative ! volunteer ask questions , provide answers \) ok , could first question answer something q want program wrote \? would wise program see , people wants get cracked copy program go various length crack program , crackers good , know common tricks , copy protection would n't stop ok , legitimate users \? copy protection hassle legitimate users , hinder work , expecially key item get lost , copy protection would n't help much legitimate users , would make life somewhat misery \( opinion , speak legitimate user \) course free opinion subject rhi hi
uwovax uwo ca subject long distance ir detection organization university western ont , london nntp posting host hydra uwo ca lines 31 article 1993apr20 dres dnd ca , sburton dres dnd ca \( stan burton \) writes would like able detect angular position \( low accuracy \) ir emitting source distance 100 meters \( better \) daylight ir source could emitting signature i'm leaning toward 30 khz square wave 50 duty cycle considering use quadrant detector inc give information pan tilt head point sensor thus determine angles source considering wazing heck ir led \( \) , possibly motorola wazing would mean least 1 amp current pulses current duty cycle led drops 10 would need cycle five turn get 50 required anyone done something like \? n't run one led 60 khz use flip flop receiving end divide 2 give good square signal thought lori stan burton \( dnd crad dres dtd mss agcg \) sburton dres dnd ca \( 403 \) 544 4737 dre suffield , box 4000 , medicine hat , ab , canada , t1a 8k6 red wins lori \( 519 \) 661 ext 8695 dept astronomy , uwovax uwo ca university western ontario london , , canada ,
leblanc msu edu \( pat leblanc \) subject wireless data transfer organization michigan state university , college veterinary medicine lines 5 nntp posting host msu edu involved michigan company application requiring wireless data transfer expertise information may assist us project , please contact \( internet leblanc msu edu \)
hcb netcom com \( h c bowman \) subject 8x oversampling cd player keywords oversampling , cd , digitized audio organization box rain productions lines 27 hello bought new portable cd player office , notice proudly proclaims 8 times oversampling box think understand oversampling \( rate discrete samples exceeds highest frequency component interest factor \) , n't understand 8 times business seems bought first cd player \( really 10 years ago \? ! \) , specs said 4 times could someone please tell whether i'm getting senile \? i'm , good player take samples higher rate \? really wanted better fidelity , would n't higher rate sampling recording process \? furthermore , wrong interpreting sampling rate \( player 's point view \) thing data rate bit stream coming optical medium \? mean data rate \( related rotational speed disk \) changed since 1983 \? i'm confused cliff clifford bowman , box 1890 , , ar hcb netcom com i'm pretty sure world n't fair \( 501 \) 968 2232 , 'd lot worse !
rand org \( ed hall \) subject los angeles freeway traffic reports organization rand lines 29 nntp posting host ives rand org article fc hp com cfb fc hp com \( charlie brett \) writes driving middle nowhere , picked knx , 1070 , clear channel station based los angeles ad claiming able get traffic flow information thousands traffic sensors caltrans placed pavement caltrans sell info \? knx exclusive \? 's deal \? well , claim radio broadcaster information city 's cable channel \( 35 cablevision areas \) shows information map travel times \( 6 4 , believe \) major la freeways covered computer generated map shows green , yellow , red , flashing red \( respectively , 25 , , incident might little speeds , since memory \) often look display morning see really want fight traffic pass work home little wait clear another poster explained origin information sensors \( embedded wire loops \) pavement near ramps every half mile caltrans big board driven data traffic control center time n't know selling data anyone equipment necessary transmission display ed hall rand org
jimmy \( jimmy \) subject help construct home built battery 3rd grade sci report keywords 3rd grade science report nntp posting host organization jet propulsion laboratory \( nasa \) distribution usa lines 22 article athena cs uga edu mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) writes almost two dissimilar metals almost electrically conductive liquid example copper zinc coca cola copper galvanized steel nails lemon n't expect much power , easily detectable voltmeter michael covington , associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu university georgia phone 706 542 0358 athens , georgia 30602 7415 u amateur radio n4tmi copper zinc rod potato also work nice
mrcnext cso uiuc edu \( martin johnson \) subject hi volt battery keywords capacitive discharge organization university illinois urbana lines 13 need small battery powered hi voltage capacitive discharge supply deliver 6 250 volts implies cap built satisfactorily operating version , like idea using 6 single source part seems ubiquitous camera flash circuit want , cant get mine apart without breaking would appreciate receiving circuit description source one already looked several electronics circuits avail thanx martin johnson uiuc edu mind business , first us coin
acm sun com \( andrew macrae \) subject arcade style buttons joysticks reply acm sun com \( andrew macrae \) organization sun microsystems , mountain view ca lines 14 nntp posting host corp sun com article 1993apr21 lynx dac northeastern edu , dnewman lynx dac northeastern edu \( david f newman \) writes hi , anyone tell possible purchase controls found arcade style games many projects working would greatly augmented could implement thanx advance hap controls outside chicago sells n't remember prices pretty reasonable easy hook bought new coin mechanism 25 00 couple years ago andrew macrae
whit carson u washington edu \( john whitmore \) subject suggestions audio relays \? \? \? organization university washington , seattle lines 20 nntp posting host carson u washington edu article c5qsbf iek ms uky edu billq ms uky edu \( billy quinn \) writes built little project using radio shack 5vdc relays switch audio got pretty bad 'clicks' thing switched good relay relay circuit use switching audio , noise kind audio lines relays alone , always get transient abruptly turn channel n't want hear transient , use device \( output optoisolator usual sort thing \) gently mute signal , switch , remove power lamp optoisolator used standard practice employ switching audio , time delay \( second \) kept noise digital side \( drives lamp \) contaminating audio , devices cheaper relays john whitmore
whit carson u washington edu \( john whitmore \) subject radar detector detectors \? article shelley distribution na organization university washington , seattle lines 18 nntp posting host carson u washington edu article 1993apr19 rapnet sanders lockheed com babb rapnet sanders lockheed com \( scott babb \) writes brian day \( bday lambda msfc nasa gov \) wrote december 29 , 1992 , illegal operate radar detector state virginia one got caught , one got fined 65 00 federal communications act 1934 made legal operate radio receiver kind , frequency \( including x , k , ka bands \) united states commonwealth virginia exactly issue grounds claim matter traffic safety one allowed functioning radar detector dashboard operating motor vehicle yes , argument bogus , n't successfully challenged court yet john whitmore
jbore cosmos shearson com \( joe bore \) subject need find number phone line reply alee ecs umass edu 's message 18 apr 93 15 04 10 gmt organization lehman brothers lines 33 try finding friend caller id , give call jb article 20756 2bd16dea ecs umass edu alee ecs umass edu writes path shearson com ! uupsi ! psinntp ! uunet ! umd edu ! darwin sura net ! newsserver jvnc net ! howland reston ans net ! noc near net ! nic umass edu ! risky ecs umass edu ! ! alee alee ecs umass edu newsgroups sci electronics date 18 apr 93 15 04 10 gmt lines 13 greetings ! situation phone jack mounted wall n't know number line n't want call operator place trace question certain device use find number line \? thanks response al joe bore life short code hard jbore shearson com ! uunet ! shearson com ! jbore \( 212 \) 464 , beeper \( 212 \) 396
subject power , signal surges home emd ham almanac bc ca distribution world organization robert smits lines 21 vanderby mprgate mpr ca \( david vanderbyl \) writes drand spinner osf org \( douglas rand \) writes hams legally run 1500 watts unlikely , however , ham would running kind power car possible either 'd need 300 amp alternator amplifier possible original poster said unlikely definately possible \( say batteries \? \) 've even seen pictures installation ham pulled little trailer behind car generator , ran full legal limit mobile n't know gas mileage like , though , found able stand emd ham almanac bc ca \( robert smits ladysmith bc \)
tom arizona edu \( thomas j \) subject question 120vac outlet wiring keywords outlet organization steward observatory , univ arizona , tucson lines 19 sedona intel com \( chris richmond \) writes well , house built last year , breaker box wired way white ground wires common bus except 220v circuits , black wires hooked breakers way last two houses also sure wrong \? still building inspector 's signature breaker box point original poster talking connecting ground neutral outlet box \( big \) , talking connected breaker box \( things \) obvious , point current flow white , e neutral return wires things house operating flow ground wires unless fault condition notice also breaker box wire leading mentioned junction earth ground , usually pipe spike driven ground tom arizona edu
kolstad cae wisc edu \( joel kolstad \) subject 8x oversampling cd player organization u wisconsin madison college engineering keywords oversampling , cd , digitized audio lines 40 article dd0 netcom com hcb netcom com \( h c bowman \) writes hello bought new portable cd player office , notice proudly proclaims 8 times oversampling box think understand oversampling \( rate discrete samples exceeds highest frequency component interest factor \) , n't understand 8 times business seems bought first cd player \( really 10 years ago \? ! \) , specs said 4 times could someone please tell whether i'm getting senile \? i'm , good player take samples higher rate \? really wanted better fidelity , would n't higher rate sampling recording process \? furthermore , wrong interpreting sampling rate \( player 's point view \) thing data rate bit stream coming optical medium \? mean data rate \( related rotational speed disk \) changed since 1983 \? note tried figure stuff month ago , various people net , could wrong data ever read \( barring , course \) , eventually gets turned 44 1 khz , 16 bit , two channel data oversampling takes two discrete data points , interpolates n 1 points n times oversampling asked , people said interpolation simply linear interpolation , significantly complicated anyway , , purpose oversampling move effective sampling rate n times 44 1 khz , order use higher frequency filters quality filter , higher oversampling lets build cheaper filters , whereas price filter , higher lets build better filters , assuming quality components cd player remained , oversampling allow manufacturer produce slightly better sound due anti alias filtering joel kolstad
galen picea cfnr colostate edu \( galen watts \) subject suggestions audio relays \? \? \? nntp posting host storm cfnr colostate edu organization colorado concert sound lines 25 article 1993apr20 mala bc ca wagner mala bc ca \( tom wagner , wizzard old audio visual equipment nanaimo campus \) writes article megatest com , alung megatest com \( aaron lung \) writes article c5qsbf iek ms uky edu billq ms uky edu \( billy quinn \) writes built little project using radio shack 5vdc relays switch audio got pretty bad 'clicks' thing switched question good relay relay circuit use switching audio , noise kind audio lines switching high level signals low level signals like pre amp novel circuit used build primitive optical consists resistive lamp , packaged tube lamp cell high resistance turn lamp resistance lowers use fet switch microphone level signals click , since put cap across led distortion measurement low mic level , went 0 03 14 db line level put fet series one leg balanced line , pops , audio jumping silence fet runs 100 million ohms led dark drops 150 200 ohms hey , works , works well galen watts , kf0yj
schaefer imag imag fr \( arno schaefer \) subject disks copy protected nntp posting host silene organization institut imag , grenoble , france lines 38 article 1993apr21 lumina edb tih , ketil edb tih \( ketil albertsen , tih \) writes article 1993apr20 230749 12821 reed edu , mblock reed edu \( matt block \) writes guess saying question difficult , impossible , answer exactly want know \? need good one project working \? secure must \? trying crack one someone else used \? probably make suggestions , assuming activity strictly legal \( general , bad idea , legally , tamper copy protection also lead corruption files necessarily back ups \( copy protected , \) devestating \) absolutely ideas practical applications , merely curious \? please clear questions , 'll try help much may interpret offer volunteer editor copy protection faq \? quite sure alone welcoming initiative ! volunteer ask questions , provide answers \) ketil albertsen hey , stop encouraging \? copy protection serves one pur pose keep honest buyer making \( legal \) backup copies definitely stop pirates want protect soft , supply good documentation support imho way effectively pro software best regards , arno arno schaefer , 2e email schaefer silene imag fr tel \( 33 \) 76 51 79 95 \) , 're paranoid world really get
conradie firga sun ac za \( gerrit conradie \) subject arcade style buttons joysticks organization university stellenbosch , sa lines 8 article 1993apr21 lynx dac northeastern edu dnewman lynx dac northeastern edu \( david f newman \) writes subject arcade style buttons joysticks anyone tell possible purchase controls found arcade style games many projects working would common joystick found computer shops \? gerrit
galen picea cfnr colostate edu \( galen watts \) subject beginner 's rf \? \? \? distribution na nntp posting host storm cfnr colostate edu organization college natural resources , state univ lines 16 article cbnewsl cb att com cbnewsl cb att com \( steven r klinkner \) writes anybody recommend good , application oriented beginner 's reference rf circuits \? steve klinkner bell labs boeing att com arrl handbook radio amateur , i'm getting solid state design radio amateur handbook 25 solid state 12 arrl , 225 main , newington , ct able find electronics amateur radio stores arrl want 5 shipping good luck , galen watts , kf0yj
nextwork rose hulman edu \( f hensley \) subject 68hc16 public domain software \? organization computer science department rose hulman lines 14 nntp posting host 26 nextwork rose hulman edu keywords 68hc16 article murashiea 15 mail beckman com writes anyone know ftp site might find public domain software motorola 68hc16 microprocessor \? looking basic interpreter 'c' compiler thanks advance ed murashie yep , oak oakland edu couple different 68hc16 things pub msdos emulators get file 00 index txt list
daniel j stern dartmouth edu \( daniel j stern \) subject seeking info wear monitors x posted internews 1 dartmouth edu organization dartmouth college , hanover , nh lines 12 dartmouth engineering students looking documented data regarding wear associated turning monitor relates power consumption interested comparison wear monitor left continuously one turned use please e mail ds dartmouth edu thank , dan stern oliver
exuptr exu ericsson se \( patrick taylor , sounding board \) subject disks copy protected nntp posting host 138 85 253 85 organization ericsson network systems , inc x disclaimer article posted user ericsson opinions expressed strictly user necessarily ericsson lines 36 article 1993apr21 uhura neoucom edu wtm uhura neoucom edu \( bill mayhew \) writes wtm uhura neoucom edu \( bill mayhew \) subject disks copy protected date wed , 21 apr 1993 13 19 08 gmt write good manual go software hassle manual offset simplicity purchasing package 15 also , consider offering inexpensive attractive registered users instance , coffee mug could produce mail incentive couple dollars , consider pricing product 17 95 , documentation program \) lot shareware similar approach send money , get documentation , free upgrade latest version perhaps even support small degree whatever want offer better circulating version 're lucky 20 instances program use non licensed users figure 50 , seen best approach estimate loss accomodate price structure sure hurts legitimate users , bad n't really hurt legit users shareware still much cheaper alternatives visit sounding board bbs 1 214 596 2915 , ! bbs opinions specifically disclaimed one responsible patrick taylor , ericsson network systems thx 1138 exuptr exu ericsson se n't let se fool
nextwork rose hulman edu \( f hensley \) subject old 256k simms \? organization computer science department rose hulman lines 11 nntp posting host 26 nextwork rose hulman edu article 120466 netnews upenn edu jhaines eniac seas upenn edu \( jason haines \) writes wondering people good uses old 256k simms bunch apple mac know lots people tried sell gotten interest , inovative use \( want buy simms 8 \) \) sure 'll give 10 bucks
baden sys6626 bison mb ca \( baden de bari \) subject exhausted student needing help ! organization system 6626 bbs , winnipeg manitoba canada lines 40 well , 've working damned stepper controller board since 's 6am i'm pissed period alright , drive 3479p 's problem \( 's 6 wire , 2 , 4 phase lines \) problem 1 've got 4 wire put line 3 3479p worked , kinda tried printer stepper \( moves head back forth , 4 wires \) , n't work well would shift back forth \( use something like instead \? \) also 've trying get bunch 's work luck tried 's , still luck ! ! ! n't know i'm cursed , feel brain slowly frying thought stepper ! ! ! n't know 's wrong transistor hook \( 220 pkg type \) , also pkg type luck i'm going try getting z 's , hope help problem someone please help soon , would greatly appreciated thanks inspiration comes baden sys6626 bison mb ca \( \) baden inqmind bison mb ca seek baden de bari unknown l
babb sciences sdsu edu \( j babb \) subject circuit cellar ink address \? organization sdsu larc lines 14 distribution na nntp posting host larc sdsu edu article shelley u washington edu , ptorre hardy u washington edu \( phil torre \) wrote cci still published \? , anyone address \? circuit cellar inc 4 park st suite 20 vernon , ct \( 203 \) 875 jeff babb babb sciences sdsu edu babb ucssun1 sdsu edu programmer , sdsu larc
cbnewsl cb att com \( steven r klinkner \) subject beginner 's rf \? \? \? organization bell laboratories distribution na lines 14 anybody recommend good , application oriented beginner 's reference rf circuits \? pretty good theory know different types modulation mean , n't lot practical experience book detailing working circuits different types \( modulation , power , frequency , legal , , et cetera \) , would helpful thanks steve klinkner bell labs boeing att com att ! boeing !
jam gov \( jerry \) subject uart needed organization ames laboratory , isu lines 9 need find uart interface 8051 following 250k baud , 8 data bits , 2 stop bits , parity ability break detect \( irq output pin \) irq character received i'm using dallas 16 mhz \( 8051 clone \) , wo n't break detect 've looked , , , , etc help would appriciated ! ! !
rg futserv austin ibm com \( r g keen \) subject tube tester repairs \? reply futserv austin ibm com ! rg organization ibm advanced workstations systems lines 14 good luck obtain dynamic conductance tube tester song unfortunately , little key thing wrong open meter movement anyone know find either another meter movement like , dead meter dead unit , schematics specify current scale meter movement \? cut paste sensitive movement find full scale current still \? thing model 666 nope , joke sort snide reference r g
uni stuttgart de \( \) subject pads question go schematic pcb \? organization comp center \( rus \) , u stuttgart , frg lines 38 nntp posting host uni stuttgart de hi ! article news cso uiuc edu rky57514 uxa cso uiuc edu \( tall cool one \) writes produced schematic pads logic , import pads pcb create pcb pattern \? way 've gotten work output netlist , import pads pcb another way \? n't see information instructions provided , might missed something suggestions would greatly appreciated thanks ! sorry , 's german , hope understand der \( sch \) die board \( job \) pads logic reports net list select pads pcb net list output file name filename pads pcb ascii ascii input file name filename errors file name filename , nicht cr alle auf und mit move
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject 0 022 uf different two 0 047 series \? ! organization u toronto zoology lines 13 article 1993apr19 princeton edu mg cs princeton edu \( michael golan \) writes board also identical , room three caps us versions clearly indicated places make sense \? 0 047 2 0 0235 , essentially 0 022 caps \( standard caps , special w type precision \) may safety issue csa paranoid certain areas ul two caps series means n't short one shorts work one man 's work henry spencer u toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
camter28 astro ocis temple edu \( carter ames \) subject lead acid batteries concrete \? organization temple university lines 15 nntp posting host astro ocis temple edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 wondering one thing , actually two \( hope proper place post subject \) lead acid battery discharge become dead \( totally unuseable \) stored concrete floor \? decided bring battery lawn mower motorcycle unheated garage year , preserve went use noticed work , act like two terminals shorted asked friend said never , 'cause ruins , could n't tell thanks camter28 astro ocis temple edu
wb9omc dynamo ecn purdue edu \( duane p mantick \) subject ir remote control receiver organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 29 freenet carleton ca \( marc dion \) writes project , would like build infra red remote control receiver \( regular vcrs tvs remotes \) anybody info tips build receiver \? particular , \) photo detector use \( wavelength remotes use \) \? b \) ics circuit use \? c \) suggestions circuit layout please reply group \( wish \) , well via e mail \( link usenet always available \) 'd like see info well wavelength , think 're primarily going find two 880 nm bit , 950 nm bit usually 10 nm either way two common seen 880 950 also heard 890 940 i'm sure 10 nm one way another make great deal difference another suggestion find brand tv uses ir remote , go look sams often find detailed schematics parts list receiver transmitter well , including carrier freq specs tone decoding specs system uses duane
macs ee mcgill ca \( phil \) subject read going chicago keywords soccer , lines 20 nntp posting host kirk ee mcgill ca organization mcgill university macs laboratory , montreal , canada message interest going international symposium circuits systems held chicago may checking see people would interested getting together pickup game soccer hours conference could e mail macs ee mcgill ca 'll bring ball know someone going conference know avid soccer players please pass message also someone chicago going conference please let know field near hotel play thanks bye philip
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject help real time clock standby mode organization u toronto zoology lines 20 article flash pax tpa com au flash pax tpa com au \( martin john gregory \) writes trouble obtaining specified standby current drain real time clock lowest current drain acheive 3 7v vcc three times specified maximum 1 \) made sure reset asserted powerup , low time 2 \) made sure cycle negation rd wr asserted inputs chip coming ttl \? standby drain specs cmos chips typically apply inputs pulled way zero way vcc ttl n't good former wo n't latter without help pullup resistors sort thing easily multiply power consumption considerable factor , cmos transistors supposed n't way hard work one man 's work henry spencer u toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
pyeatt texaco com \( larry pyeatt \) subject membrane keypad custom legend nntp posting host 211 2 1 197 organization texaco lines 16 catalog membrane keypads , dunno happened , long ago forget name company anyway , could make legend slip behind bezel really nice reasonably priced anyone tell get critters \? 've tried several places , none seem keypads allow use legend suggestion would appreciated larry pyeatt views expressed internet pyeatt texaco com employer anyone voice \( 713 \) 975 know possible exception
cup hp com \( doug claar \) subject los angeles freeway traffic reports nntp posting host cup hp com organization hewlett packard x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 9 lines 4 oops , 's knx 1070 knbr , 680 doug san fran ca n't 'the jack webb told claar
wb9omc dynamo ecn purdue edu \( duane p mantick \) subject long distance ir detection organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 44 sburton dres dnd ca \( stan burton \) writes would like able detect angular position \( low accuracy \) ir emitting source distance 100 meters \( better \) daylight ir source could emitting signature i'm leaning toward 30 khz square wave 50 duty cycle considering use quadrant detector inc give information pan tilt head point sensor thus determine angles source considering wazing heck ir led \( \) , possibly motorola wazing would mean least 1 amp current pulses current duty cycle led drops 10 would need cycle five turn get 50 required anyone done something like \? , nailing irleds may suggest getting siemens 2 irled \? unit designed take big current pulses get duty cycle bit output nearly watt \( 975 mw \) real short duty cycle times \( nice thing 2 cheap got mine 50 cents piece , even though buy 100 \) btw , seen irleds outputs 6 watts honest , 6 watts n't book work ca n't recall company name 6 ai n't cheap , around 108 want power , , 's pretty hot also 4 watt , 2 watt 1 watt device line , sell small quan individuals interested , find book home get pertinent info , position detector , might try florida phone number listed 92 93 904 253 seem like nice people specialty passive infrared detection devices , might able help i'm curious applications n't mind saying device sounds like could useful game , although 'd need carrier signal concept 58 8 khz duane
willisw willisw eng clemson edu \( bill willis \) subject answers many electronics questions organization engineering services , clemson university lines 10 notice lot electronics questions people obviously tuned electronics many rather simple answers , many require circuit diagram rather muck network , n't write , send self addressed , stamped , 'll answer questions , w l willis , p e 114 fern circle clemson , sc
paula com \( paula stockholm \) subject need find number phone line reply paula com paula stockholm organization northern lights bbs , portland , 207 761 lines 7 x newsreader reader mailer v0 \( beta \) areas country , serviced ess \( \) , phone paula com paula stockholm , maine usa
cunixa cc columbia edu \( kimball ng \) subject laser vs bubblejet \? nntp posting host cunixa cc columbia edu reply cunixa cc columbia edu \( kimball ng \) organization columbia university lines 44 kolstad cae wisc edu \( joel kolstad \) writes one thing bubblejets , bubblejets bubblejets produce rather mediocre output \( hp 's little bubblejet \) , whereas produce really good looking output \( hp 's deskjets \) ibm canon produce really good style bubblejets p 're market portable bubblejet printer , highly recommend hp portable deskjet , although 've heard portable canons good \( needed pcl support , \) deskjet portable , even get undocumented pcmcia card slot ! second suggestion although n't hp portable deskjet , hp deskjet 500 gives nicest outputs , minor loss quality intensive purposes \( papers , letters , resumes \) , treat deskjet like laser printer \( look bit closely see characters \) one , ink hp gives smudge rather quickly presence moisture \( even though ink waterproof \) however , would spend 500 laser quality cannon bubblejets nice , however n't seem much support \( eg drivers popular programs \) hp ink jets also hp deskjet \( regular , plus , 500 , 500c \) accepts xerox paper \( believe cut sheet feeder option cannon bubblejet \) n't mind printer cheap ink \( say fountain pen ink \) , hp deskjets cheap maintain \( paid 3 50 last bottle ink expect last 9 months \) kimball \( n't work hp , loves printer much ! \) ps question netters , i'm afraid refill waterproof inks sell art supply houses brought bottle waterproof ink clogged cartridge wonder 'good' waterproof ink \( aside buying refill kits \) refill cartridge \?
paj uk co gec mrc \( paul johnson \) subject cad program electronics \? reply paj uk co gec mrc \( paul johnson \) organization gec marconi research centre , great baddow , uk lines 30 article 1993apr17 norfolk vak12ed edu norfolk vak12ed edu \( fred w \) writes making search cad program decent job making schematic drawings program needs ms dos , windows possible want cad program draw diagrams dragging elements onto screen , elements needed diverse vacuum tubes ics \( case pins \) also needs provision adding legends components well values words want produce quality drawings printout would either 24 pin dot matrix laser printer would suggest draw windows \( micrografx \) home box quite impressive cost rather nice clip art library facility expand drawings circuit component clip art included , could add quite easily works windows printer driver course , also export embedded postscript pcx files note connected micrografx way paul paul johnson \( paj gec mrc co uk \) tel 44 245 73331 ext 3245 ideas others like gec marconi research 0 02 reputable idealist responsible opinions
gerald belton ozonehole com \( gerald belton \) subject help distribution world organization ozone online operations , inc new orleans , la reply gerald belton ozonehole com \( gerald belton \) lines 27 dean anneser \( anneser pwa b uucp \) wrote 9 yr old son signed science report batteries wondering anyone could provide information construct home built battery grade school days , remember cube version , n't remember use good electrolyte easily obtainable metals thank advance remember watching whole mr wizzard program subject kid battery constructed program made biggest impression , generated power , made using galvanized bucket \( zinc \) copper toilet tank float electrolyte sauerkraut ! take lemon stick copper strip lemon stick galvanized nail 1 1 1 2 inches copper strip get 1 2 volt enough light led slmr 2 1 support medical examiner , die strangely ozone hole bbs private bulletin board service \( 504 \) 891 3142 3 full service nodes usrobotics 16 8k bps 10 gigs 100 , 000 files skydive new orleans ! rime network mail hub 500 usenet newsgroups please route questions inquiries postmaster ozonehole com
gerald belton ozonehole com \( gerald belton \) subject food dehydrators distribution world organization ozone online operations , inc new orleans , la reply gerald belton ozonehole com \( gerald belton \) lines 39 anybody one food dehydrators 've seeing late night tv recently \? wondering use forced air , 's heat involved , anybody know temperature run wife would like one i'm inclined pay 100 00 box , fan heater seems able throw dehydrator together bucks heck , technology \? 1 , 000 years old \? learn build easily book , hungry 's guide good food , gretchen mchugh heat source 100 watt light bulb basically , 's vertical wooden box ventilation holes top bottom \( lots , want air flow \) light bulb goes bottom , wire cake racks spaced every 6 starting 10 bulb , slightly higher cost electricity , use oven \( note electric oven gas ovens may low enough setting \) put food dried cookie racks oven set oven 140 degrees \( lowest setting oven goes 120 's probably even better \) stick wooden spoon something across front corner oven close door spoon stays open inch allows leave stuff oven 6 8 hours check often , since dries much faster dehydrator using cookie sheets instead racks , turn stuff halfway want info , e mail since n't really right sub stuff gerald belton ozonehole com slmr 2 1 still miss boss , aim improving ozone hole bbs private bulletin board service \( 504 \) 891 3142 3 full service nodes usrobotics 16 8k bps 10 gigs 100 , 000 files skydive new orleans ! rime network mail hub 500 usenet newsgroups please route questions inquiries postmaster ozonehole com
gerald belton ozonehole com \( gerald belton \) subject need find numb distribution world organization ozone online operations , inc new orleans , la reply gerald belton ozonehole com \( gerald belton \) lines 24 al question certain device al use find number line \? al thanks response al al al number call return synthesized al voice telling number line unfortunately , al life ca n't remember telephone technicians al use time used play around al dorm rooms since multiple phone lines running al rooms probably would n't help post number , since appears different area 's worth , new orleans area number 998 877 6655 \( easy remember , \? \) slmr 2 1 ask anything n't know , 'll make something ozone hole bbs private bulletin board service \( 504 \) 891 3142 3 full service nodes usrobotics 16 8k bps 10 gigs 100 , 000 files skydive new orleans ! rime network mail hub 500 usenet newsgroups please route questions inquiries postmaster ozonehole com
gerald belton ozonehole com \( gerald belton \) subject mc sbi mixer distribution world organization ozone online operations , inc new orleans , la reply gerald belton ozonehole com \( gerald belton \) lines 32 mjm hi , wondering anyone would able help related mjm subjects currently learning fm receivers recieving mjm circuits understand lot things , things confused mjm first mixer , mix rf local oscillator mjm frequencies make anyone diagrams \( mjm simple possible \) kind mixer \? come across mjm mc mixer chip able find catalogs mjm \( active , etc \) mjm along note , simple fm receiver circuits anyone mjm may stashed away somewhere let see \? mjm p really good books fm theory along detailed mjm electrical diagrams would help lot mjm seen lot theory books circuits lot mjm circuit books theory , one without help digi key ne 622 chip local oscillator mixer one chip great combination theory actual circuits , best reference non engineers probably radio amateur 's handbook arrl library 's reference section slmr 2 1 ignorance bliss , n't happy folk \? ozone hole bbs private bulletin board service \( 504 \) 891 3142 3 full service nodes usrobotics 16 8k bps 10 gigs 100 , 000 files skydive new orleans ! rime network mail hub 500 usenet newsgroups please route questions inquiries postmaster ozonehole com
wayne uva386 schools virginia edu \( tony wayne \) subject pink noise organization virginia 's public education network \( charlottesville \) lines 4 pink noise used sound experiments \? tony wayne uva386 schools virginia edu
lihan ccwf cc utexas edu \( bruce g bostwick \) subject 0 022 uf different two 0 047 series \? ! organization university texas austin , austin tx lines 13 distribution usa nntp posting host doc cc utexas edu article zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) writes may safety issue csa paranoid certain areas ul two caps series means n't short one shorts necessarily true short one , near maximum series voltage drop , one short , bgb lihan ccwf cc utexas edu reason world n't \( really bruce bostwick \) dissolved total chaos great state texas murphy 's law also applies murphy
lihan ccwf cc utexas edu \( bruce g bostwick \) subject membrane keypad custom legend organization university texas austin , austin tx lines 21 distribution usa nntp posting host doc cc utexas edu article 1993apr21 uucp pyeatt texaco com \( larry pyeatt \) writes catalog membrane keypads , dunno happened , long ago forget name company anyway , could make legend slip behind bezel really nice reasonably priced anyone tell get critters \? reason name springs mind saw something like catalog , along options custom printed overlays neat little backing would make whole glow nice shade green mighty handy 're trying key door combination dark n't want turn ! ! light bgb lihan ccwf cc utexas edu reason world n't \( really bruce bostwick \) dissolved total chaos great state texas murphy 's law also applies murphy
andrew payne hal9k ann arbor mi us \( andrew payne \) subject wanted tcm3105 chips , small quantities distribution world organization hal 9000 bbs , w net hq , ann arbor , michigan , usa reply andrew payne hal9k ann arbor mi us \( andrew payne \) keywords rec mod lines 29 payne crl dec com \( andrew payne \) message id 1993apr20 crl dec com organization dec cambridge research lab date tue , 20 apr 1993 00 44 18 gmt anyone know source tcm3105 modem chips \( used pmp modems \) \? ideally , something geared toward hobbyists small quantity , mail order , etc years , 've buying distributor \( marshall \) hundreds pmp kits orders dropped point longer afford offer service distributors 've checked crazy minimum order \( 100 , \) 'd like find source still interested building pmp kits suggestions \? andrew c payne dec cambridge research lab hal 9000 hal 9000 bbs qwk usenet gateway four 14400 v 32bis dial ins free usenet mail 200 newsgroups ! pcboard 14 5am uupcb kmail call 1 313 663 4173 663 3959 member eff , asp , asad 1500mb disk serving ann arbor since 1988
andrew payne hal9k ann arbor mi us \( andrew payne \) subject wanted tcm3105 chips , small quantities distribution world organization hal 9000 bbs , w net hq , ann arbor , michigan , usa reply andrew payne hal9k ann arbor mi us \( andrew payne \) keywords rec mod summary reposted keith petersen lines 29 payne crl dec com \( andrew payne \) message id 1993apr20 crl dec com organization dec cambridge research lab date tue , 20 apr 1993 00 44 18 gmt anyone know source tcm3105 modem chips \( used pmp modems \) \? ideally , something geared toward hobbyists small quantity , mail order , etc years , 've buying distributor \( marshall \) hundreds pmp kits orders dropped point longer afford offer service distributors 've checked crazy minimum order \( 100 , \) 'd like find source still interested building pmp kits suggestions \? andrew c payne dec cambridge research lab hal 9000 hal 9000 bbs qwk usenet gateway four 14400 v 32bis dial ins free usenet mail 200 newsgroups ! pcboard 14 5am uupcb kmail call 1 313 663 4173 663 3959 member eff , asp , asad 1500mb disk serving ann arbor since 1988
ulan ee ualberta ca \( dale ulan \) subject part nntp posting host ee ualberta ca reply ulan ee ualberta ca \( dale ulan \) organization university alberta electrical engineering distribution na lines 8 know , i'm trying figure specifically , sec stand \? dale ulan ulan ee ualberta ca
acooney netcom com \( alan \) subject los angeles freeway traffic reports organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 48 live san francisco bay area , word something similar way since apparently n't sensor base folks , 're installing cameras strategic points along freeways \( initial tests going santa clara area i'm told \) , video piped command center 're building somewhere east bay i'm sure frame grabbers cheap labor used interpret data , large multi colored status displays show various routes using different colors represent various average speeds stretch highway announcer sit front status , relay continuous verbal traffic status want receive 're apparently also looking licensing low frequency dedicated providing continuous audio system mean time , 'll set large incandescent display boards along test stretch provide data traffic conditions ahead understanding system subsidized pilot program , information available free charge perhaps la system similarly free provided obviously subsidized rate \( read cheap \) also traffic reports broadcast audio channel television channels 2 36 verbal reports , qualified identification tone tell vehicle receivers like information coming next applicable given area la , 're probably using tv channels , concept try setting stereo tv vcr receive audio channel , go station jumping find one broadcasting information believe program also subsidized , making vehicle receivers cheap purchase \( without incur monthly fees use \) since makers vehicle receivers n't pay broadcast \( may completely true \) , likely investment keeping system running cal trans stuff hits airwaves may nifty little tv audio receiver car , nothing , happens perhaps word wise \? \) think 'd interested summary post get info la system networked paid cheers , alan acooney netcom com
cmwolf mtu edu \( engineer day asleep night \) subject answers many electronics questions organization michigan technological university x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 19 bill willis \( willisw willisw eng clemson edu \) wrote notice lot electronics questions people obviously tuned electronics many rather simple answers , many require circuit diagram rather muck network , n't write , send self addressed , stamped , 'll answer questions , w l willis , p e 114 fern circle clemson , sc network quicker , easier , free \( least \) christopher wolf electrical engineer cmwolf mtu edu remember , even win rat race 're still rat
cmwolf mtu edu \( engineer day asleep night \) subject question 120vac outlet wiring organization michigan technological university x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 13 dave \( dave imax imax com \) wrote require two separate grounds one ground goes ground pin outlet , ground wire connected outlet 's mounting tabs \( thus grounds box faceplate screw metal faceplate , \) thought ground connected metal frame socket christopher wolf electrical engineer cmwolf mtu edu remember , even win rat race 're still rat
cmwolf mtu edu \( engineer day asleep night \) subject los angeles freeway traffic reports organization michigan technological university x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 21 charlie brett \( cfb fc hp com \) wrote right second time , knx believe , also listen knx evenings colorado ! 's kind fun driving country listening traffic jams 405 back original question yes , sensors past every ramp ramp freeways 're sensors used \( coils pavement \) might want give caltrans call even ask bill \( knx 's traffic reporter \) doubt anyone get information , would worth asking case get seem remember sell information \( computer connection \) anyone willing pay subject pavement sensors , anyone tell \? christopher wolf electrical engineer cmwolf mtu edu remember , even win rat race 're still rat
acollins uclink berkeley edu \( andy collins \) subject voltage regulation current limiting organization university california , berkeley lines 37 nntp posting host uclink berkeley edu summary need help ! ! ! one quick question throw guys class project , need design build power supply following specs adjustable 1 12v current limited 1a voltage must stay within 2 designated value 0 1a ac ripple less 5 mv \( rms \) course , ca n't use adjustable voltage , current limiting regulator chip \) problem current limiting \( e 've found stuff rest parts circuit \) supply must , presented load would draw 1a , given supply voltage , reduce voltage current equal one amp thus , short thing , read one amp measure current 1 ohm resistor 12v , read one amp \( output voltage , necessity , must 1v basic idea seen current limiter involves circuit pull current base output power transistor , therefore reduce output , anybody ideas could work \? thanks advance andy collins , acollins uclink berkeley edu ps anybody wants flame stupid project , agree fully , still , graded \)
acooney netcom com \( alan \) subject membrane keypad custom legend organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 distribution usa lines 21 try folks corp , la , ca number \( 818 \) 957 make membrane keypads flat , layouts 2 128 keys standard models , models \( stainless key make feel \) , well backlit models even cut scissors form funky shape rectangle many models available includes bezel , colored plain key covers , rub make layout one piece prices n't cheap , though , want 10 one four position pad kit , 45 40 position kit affiliation company connected purchased couple keypads , pleased got cheers , alan acooney netcom com
electrical watstar uwaterloo ca \( david \) subject building uv flashlight lines 40 organization university waterloo article panix com jhawk panix com \( john hawkinson \) writes main question bulb get uv bulbs \? need lot power \? etc , etc 've seen surplus stores fluorescent bulbs without phosphor , uv transparent bulb \( special glass \) 've also seen incandescent versions screw ordinary 120vac socket , probably want i'm concerned whether 's long wave short wave \( hey , anyone cheap source bulbs , 'll take \) one thing friend mine mentioned something near uv light cheaper get actual uv light anyone know referring \? far know , near uv \( opposed far uv \) uv \( near visible spectrum \) uv safer far accidental \( hope \) exposure eyes far fluorescent minerals go \( reason friend uv lamp \) , respond one short long uv hope helps dave thanks much john hawkinson jhawk panix com david think electrical watstar uwaterloo ca
karplus cse ucsc edu \( kevin karplus \) subject decoupling caps onboard organization university california , santa cruz lines 38 reply karplus ce ucsc edu \( kevin karplus \) nntp posting host ararat ucsc edu 've used chip capacitors reduce ground bounce noise small array chip loads clock lines \( design 2 micron n well cmos , using scalable design rules \) thoughts bypass capacitors 1 \) n't help much simultaneous output switching still large inductance bypass capacitor load capacitor \( signal line ground return \) , still get ground power line bounce 2 \) help lot chip loads , high load clock lines 3 \) trying suppress really high frequency , forget large areas poly thin oxide diff capacitors , since rc time constant large make , metal , poly , diff sandwich , put lot holes poly layer , allowing frequent diff contacts forget exactly wide poly lines design , 'd probably omit diff altogether , use solid poly sheet instead , using m2 , m1 , poly \( , high resistance ignored speeds \) 4 \) probably better trying tune circuit run slightly slower edges lower voltage swings \( especially output signalling \) , spending chip area capacitors spare space die since circuit big tiny chip , next size twice big needed kevin karplus kevin karplus karplus ce ucsc edu due constraints light end tunnel turned
mike diack mike staff tc umn edu subject anyone got 200 switches led \? x xxmessage id dialup slip 1 95 gw umn edu x xxdate thu , 22 apr 93 15 28 05 gmt nntp posting host dialup slip 1 95 gw umn edu organization persian cat carpet co x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d7 lines 3 name price , cap colours quantity available cheers mike
mycal com \( mycal \) subject need find number phone line distribution world organization , inc lines 14 try comp dcom reading thread back 800 number could dial worked sales line sprint think telling could customers numbers using ani , told number work modern switch mycal pgp key request mycal com mycal 's way skiing turn , turn , turn , air , survive , survive , survive risk , rush
mycal com \( mycal \) subject atari 2600 processors distribution world organization , inc lines 19 people interested every aspect 2600 try 2600 connection 1 cash timothy po box n , 664 , sample pgp key request mycal com mycal 's way skiing turn , turn , turn , air , survive , survive , survive risk , rush
rubin cis ohio state edu \( daniel j rubin \) subject arcade style buttons joysticks organization ohio state university dept computer info science lines 17 nntp posting host zion cis ohio state edu hi , anyone tell possible purchase controls found arcade style games many projects working would greatly augmented could implement thanx advance try parts express dayton , ohio also complete line professional arcade buttons , joysticks etc 1 800 number call 1 800 555 1212 ask 1 800 number part express dayton , ohio love free 1 800 directory assistance dan daniel joseph rubin rubin cis ohio state edu go ! go bucks !
alan apple com \( alan mimms \) subject uart needed \( really break detect \) organization apple computer , inc lines 26 article jam 19 gov , jam gov \( jerry \) wrote need find uart interface 8051 following 250k baud , 8 data bits , 2 stop bits , parity ability break detect \( irq output pin \) irq character received i'm using dallas 16 mhz \( 8051 clone \) , wo n't break detect 've looked , , , , etc help would appriciated ! ! ! actually detecting break done watching character containing zero bits framing error resulting receipt means line stayed zero bit state even past stop bit time slot , basically indicates break special way detect break found 's magic signal generated uarts , etc alan mimms \( alan apple com , ! apple ! alan \) opinions generally portable macintosh software group pretty worthless , apple computer art without engineering dreaming engineering without art calculating steven k roberts computing across america
mb4008 \( morgan j bullard \) subject power supply organization university illinois urbana lines 47 alung megatest com \( aaron lung \) writes article hp col col hp com cab col hp com \( chris best \) writes i'm expert ups 's , said something made sound like n't realize something typical ups \( well , , anyway \) , switchover ac dc protected equipment always running batteries \( via inverter \) , usual condition also charge power fails , big deal computers never see \( batteries start , 's something like 60 car sized batteries cabinet , takes \) gonna run guts straight dc instead inverter , time \? 'd switchover screw things , sense failure fast keep dc charge power , 'll zero time need actually , 's bit complicated sounds , ups takes ac , dc charge batteries , takes battery dc ac , feeding equipment approach easiest cleanest way switchover mains battery power kicks since , mentioned , nothing know happened line another way ups scheme use mains lose power , kick battery backup 's inverter replace lost power problem switchover time 've got ac time flat 's standby unit ups , otherwise would many standby units labled ups 's though morgan bullard mb4008 cen uiuc edu uxa cso uiuc edu unfortunately , everything built around assumption ac available , ups guys provide ac output usable ya sorta make work already similar story telephone system first invented back 1800 's 're still using damn system \( media \) back phone back , assure 'll work today 's phone system costs much overhaul everyone new system , make work
yoyo cc monash edu au \( sebastian \) subject ir detector 'cards' \? \? \? summary ir detector cards \? \? \? keywords ir card organization monash university , melb , australia lines 23 hi people ok heres problem keep hearing little credit card type things detect ir light believe up' normal \( visible \) light exposed ir light glow something like think avaliable states even england , alas live australia could someone please inform get things , \? \? \? much \? \? \? also really commonly avaliable states , , much sells \( maybe cant get one , 'll write one companies seas \) anyway thanks advance sab 93
ptorre hardy u washington edu \( phil torre \) subject suggestions audio relays \? \? \? organization university washington , seattle lines 18 nntp posting host hardy u washington edu article c5qsbf iek ms uky edu billq ms uky edu \( billy quinn \) writes built little project using radio shack 5vdc relays switch audio got pretty bad 'clicks' thing switched good relay relay circuit use switching audio , noise kind audio lines missed first part thread switching line level speaker level audio \? line level , 's single chip stereo audio switch available switches 4 two channel inputs 1 two channel output , also mute function , ttl inputs , think \? speaker level , never mind \( phil torre \( ptorre u washington edu \)
cco caltech edu \( frank \) subject arcade style buttons joysticks organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 19 nntp posting host alumni caltech edu anyone tell possible purchase controls found arcade style games many projects working would greatly augmented could implement thanx advance hap controls outside chicago sells andrew macrae actually , 's , equipment found parts express catalog \( 1 800 338 \) show switches 2 , joysticks 13 trackballs 80 also pinball parts good luck frank jr b ee music , california institute technology '92 audio consultant music engineering , university miami '94 alumni caltech edu , officer , n't know fast going
rgc3679 bcstec ca boeing com \( robert g carpenter \) subject radio freq used measure distance \? organization boeing computer services lines 19 i'm wondering 's possible use radio waves measure distance transmitter \( \) receiver \? seems able measure signal strength determine distance would short distances \( 2000 ft \) , would need accuracy 6 inches , measuring vertical distance well , chance getting ridiculous \? frequencies would best \? matter \? sorry i'm mucking network one questions best answered bill willis via us mail apologize tuned electronics \) r g carpenter , ph , p e \( sorry \)
pauls trsvax tandy com subject need source old radio shack ste nf id r acs ucalgary ca 27323 trsvax 000 125 nf trsvax tandy com ! pauls apr 21 09 36 00 1993 lines 5 's made rohm \( parts \) call 714 855 2131 ask get sample \( 's like 2 part \)
pauls trsvax tandy com subject need info dsp project nf id r ee ualberta ca trsvax 000 164 nf trsvax tandy com ! pauls apr 21 09 31 00 1993 lines 6 motorola good app note 10 band equalizer using dsp could easily ported ariel board , even turtle beach development system
kolstad cae wisc edu \( joel kolstad \) subject radio freq used measure distance \? organization u wisconsin madison college engineering lines 25 article bcstec ca boeing com rgc3679 bcstec ca boeing com \( robert g carpenter \) writes i'm wondering 's possible use radio waves measure distance transmitter \( \) receiver \? yes , could seems able measure signal strength determine distance would short distances \( 2000 ft \) , would need accuracy 6 inches , well , \( hp , soon gx \) 6 inches 3 10 8 5 nanoseconds resolution hmm 'll rather difficult ! standard \( read better \) method use ultrasound , generally somewhere around sound travels heck lot slower light \( radio waves \) , therefore much easier deal frequencies would best \? matter \? might easiest visit hardware store look numerous sonic type devices want many pretty cheap 30 \( fact , awhile stanley selling something like 8 's one bought ! \) \) joel kolstad
system garlic sbs com \( anthony pelliccio \) subject beginner 's rf \? \? \? organization 's italian kitchen excellence operating network x newsreader rusnews v1 02 lines 27 cbnewsl cb att com \( steven r klinkner \) writes anybody recommend good , application oriented beginner 's reference rf circuits \? pretty good theory know different types modulation mean , n't lot practical experience book detailing working circuits different types \( modulation , power , frequency , legal , , et cetera \) , would helpful thanks well , might try r r l 's license study guides example , advanced class study guide lots lots good rf electronics theory would imagine books good tony anthony pelliccio , ae yes , read right , system garlic sbs com man went code \( ! \) extra flame sysadmin exactly one year ! calm sig !
system garlic sbs com \( anthony pelliccio \) subject arcade style buttons joysticks organization 's italian kitchen excellence operating network x newsreader rusnews v1 02 lines 26 dnewman lynx dac northeastern edu \( david f newman \) writes hi , anyone tell possible purchase controls found arcade style games many projects working would greatly augmented could implement thanx advance dave dnewman lynx dac northeastern edu contact chris arthur chris arthur pennies stratus com restores lots old video arcade games knows get parts tony anthony pelliccio , ae yes , read right , system garlic sbs com man went code \( ! \) extra flame sysadmin exactly one year ! calm sig !
jvannes vms macc wisc edu subject long distance ir detection organization university wisconsin academic computing center distribution na lines 26 article wb9omc dynamo ecn purdue edu , wb9omc dynamo ecn purdue edu \( duane p mantick \) writes btw , seen irleds outputs 6 watts honest , 6 watts n't book work ca n't recall company name 6 ai n't cheap , around 108 want power , , 's pretty hot also 4 watt , 2 watt 1 watt device line , sell small quan individuals interested , find book home get pertinent info probably referring products opto diode corp 750 mitchell road newbury park ca 805 499 make amazing irled 's really high powered devices arrays 3 , 6 , 9 , led 's 66 header 9 chip model puts 6 5 watts response 5 amp , 10 us pulse 5 duty cycle think designed ir vision systems would also interested application work dance technology program , want build something track dancers 30 foot wide stage 50 feet away
mcovingt aisun1 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) subject radar detector detectors \? nntp posting host aisun1 ai uga edu organization ai programs , university georgia , athens lines 9 microwave tower next florida 's turnpike , could watch cars hit breaks came sight every morning michael covington , associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu university georgia phone 706 542 0358 athens , georgia 30602 7415 u amateur radio n4tmi
rdell cbnewsf cb att com \( richard b dell \) subject fujitsu 8 hdd keywords , , fujitsu , \( organization distribution na lines 15 article 1993apr17 aber ac uk aber ac uk \( christopher john powell \) writes deletions appears use two balanced line connections , connection corresponds know one connection 30 way idc , 60 way idc sounds like smd interface , work actually count pins two , smd \( think \) , minor differences widely used prior advent scsi large drives \( drives \) minis \( mainframes \( \? \) experience \) richard dell
hughes jupiter ral rpi edu \( hughes \) subject manual eprom \( logical devices 8 \) wanted nntp posting host jupiter ral rpi edu organization rensselaer polytechnic institute , troy ny distribution usa lines 7 eprom made logical devices model name 8 , lost manual anyone spare manual would like sell \? hughes hughes ral rpi edu
markz ssc com \( mark zenier \) subject mc sbi mixer article ssc 1993apr21 organization ssc , inc , seattle , wa lines 17 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 mark j musone \( musone acsu buffalo edu \) wrote hi , wondering anyone would able help related subjects currently learning fm receivers recieving circuits p really good books fm theory along detailed electrical diagrams would help lot seen lot theory books circuits lot circuit books theory , one without help pretty serious book still seems readable communication receivers , design mark zenier markz ssc wa com markz ssc com
schuch phx mcd mot com \( john schuch \) subject radio electronics free information card nntp posting host bopper2 phx mcd mot com organization motorola computer group , tempe , az lines 73 article i5 acsu buffalo edu v064mb9k ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( neil b gandler \) writes radio electronics free information cards work send general information companies advertise magazine also give sign catalog depends entirely upon advertiser whose number circled radio electronics compiles cards , advertiser gets computer printout names addresses readers circled number magazines also provide data self adhesive labels , really big magazines provide data computer disk advertiser decides data get notice radio electronics information card \( commonly called bingo card industry \) includes lines company name business phone number guess would big , national advertisers make distinction professionals best example , include motorola company include business phone \( mail stop \) , tektronics probably send copy hard bound catalog sales engineer call week later leave blank , odds send slick brochure direct local retail outlet medium small companies likely send th e whole catalog companies , like digikey , nothing mail accept catalog couple interesting points bingo cards free , industry magazines like edn also log card computer use information least three ways note really read magazine likely continue subscription push , repeated mailings , subscribe also compile many people requested data marketing demographics way thay tell prospective advertiser 23 readers requesting data interested capacitors finally , magazines rent lists readers request certain information example , tektronics rent list everyone requested information test equipment 's , past 6 months point , data advertiser receives , many magazines include many items circled card want , advertiser attempt literature collectors serious potential customers say qualified sales leads \? thought could 's best way deal bingo cards \? never circle 8 number card want 8 items , use second card mail couple weeks later really , really serious really , really want information , call advertiser ask ! also cut 15 days response time virtually everyone takes voice phone seriously data computer printout help insure keep getting trade magazine 're really qualified , send bingo card least every month circle two three numbers include business name phone number , even 's house advertisers almost never call john schuch publisher arizona high tech times arizona electrical journal arizona news \( bingo cards \)
donald wichitaks ncr com \( ken thompson \) subject cable tvi interference keywords catv cable television tvi organization ncr corporation wichita , ks lines 14 victor inqmind bison mb ca \( victor laking \) writes \) know frequencies 17 19 use usually \) allocated frequencies broadcast outside cable \? 17 air comm 18 amateur 19 business public service ken thompson ncr corp peripheral products division disk array development n rock road wichita ks \( 316 \) 636 ken thompson wichitaks ncr com
infoserv com \( george carter \) subject someone know news group ieee reply infoserv com distribution usa organization lines 11 x newsreader helldiver 1 07 \( waffle 1 64 \) 1993apr19 usl edu yxy4145 ucs usl edu \( yu \) writes yxy4145 usl edu thanks lot ieee general ieee announce frequently used groups
tchannon black demon co uk \( tim \) subject laser vs bubblejet \? reply tchannon black demon co uk distribution world x mailer revision 1 20 organization null lines 53 different viewpoint fyi actual horizontal dot placement hp deskjet 1 inch electronics dynamics ink cartridge , however , limit generating dots 300 per inch almost paper , ink 1 inch anyway method depositing fusing toner printer results much less spread ink drop technology practice little difference quality care needed inkjet etc happen n't take much investigation see mechanical electronic complement laser printer complex inexpensive ink jet printers recall also laser printers offer much higher throughput 10 ppm laser versus 1 ppm ink jet printer cheap laser printer manage sort throughput top long first sheet take print \? faster say cases computer often trouble keeping printer \( 486 33 lot drivers cannot keep printer \) sage said want one copy lots copies \? , one , inkjet something else think cost consumables life printer 3000 page yield toner cartridge us 75 80 discount hp high capacity \( 500 1000 page yield \) cartridges us 22 discount could life cycle printer consumables laser printers less ink jet printers getting progressively closer two technologies laser printers usually higher duty cycles pages per month longer product replacement cycles paper cost use long term laserprinter need expensive replacement parts \( consumables \) top costs favour lowest purchase cost printer hp understand pcl many cases laserjet driver work software package inkjet driver one wild difference two printers laserprinter page printer whilst inkjet line printer means laserprinter rotate graphic images whilst inkjet cannot drivers actually use facility \( also matter downloadable fonts \) tc e mail tchannon black demon co uk tchannon cix compulink co uk
bed uucp \( deb \) subject info needed gaucher 's disease distribution everywhere expires 01 jun 93 reply bed uucp \( deb \) organization matrix network lines 33 42 yr old male friend , misdiagnosed two years , recently found illness rare gaucher 's disease gaucher 's disease symptoms include brittle bones \( lost 9 inches \) enlarged liver spleen internal bleeding fatigue \( time \) problem \( type 1 \) attributed genetic mutation lack enzyme cells swell eventually cause death replacement therapy successfully developed approved fda last years patients administered drug \( called \) report remarkable improvement condition , manufactured company costs patient 380 , 000 per year gaucher 's disease called expensive disease world need info researched gaucher 's disease library relying netlanders provide additional information news , stories , reports people know disease ideas , articles corp , get hold enough money buy , programs available help costs basically help offer thanks much ! deborah
mcdonald aries scs uiuc edu \( j mcdonald \) subject jiggers article aries mcdonald 895 organization uiuc scs lines 13 article cup portal com mmm cup portal com \( mark robert thorson \) writes would n't happen thing chiggers , would \? truly awful parasitic affliction , understand tiny bugs dig deeply skin , burying yuck ! things oklahoma close mother comes gainesville tex , right across border claim capitol world , believe grew fort worth bad enough , gainesville summer attack guaranteed doug mcdonald
fulk cs rochester edu \( mark fulk \) subject breech baby info needed organization university rochester lines 89 article 1993apr5 trentu ca trentu ca \( kate gregory \) writes article 1993apr3 cs rochester edu fulk cs rochester edu \( mark fulk \) writes another uncommon problem maternal n't remember incidence , something like 1 1 , 000 10 , 000 births hard see could handle home , would n't much time thing might consider people 's risk vary consider 1 1 , 000 risk loss loved one require considerable effort avoiding mark , seem terrified birth process 's ridiculous ! unable believe women 's bodies actually designed n't designed , evolved , much us , humans trouble free birth process sacrificed increased brain cranial size wild animals much easier time birth humans domestic horses cows typically worse time give idea family tree complicated pioneer great great grandfathers several wives , never could figure wife child one might ask happened great great grandfathers , time reached forties , quite farmers nonetheless , lost several wives childbirth spencer , indiana , boswell , north dakota , contain quite like ida , wf jacob , baby , may 6 , 1853 wanted section women carrying breech case one hundred thousand breech babies get hung second stage , like one ten consequences devastating direct experience dozen victims fouled breech birth want babies born hospital based guess likely maternal false belief fatal n't always fatal often fatal , happens reach adequate help often , permanently damages one 's health clearly women 's bodies evolved give birth \( believer divine design \) however , evolution favor trouble free births humans kids want encourage wife get six inch holes cut stomach muscles , expose anesthesia infection , whatever case measures think necessary , n't ! n't read outrageous straw man attack months ! practically see mouth foam 're statistically sophisticated enough balance risks although ca n't produce exact statistics 5 years last time looked , rest assured balanced c section risks risks would n't encourage wife unless clearly indicated hand , opposed \( obvious grounds \) waiting emergency give bear mind wife took lead decisions talked things , lot leg work , main decisions really one bothered continued suggestions , especially misc pregnant first time , birth dangerous , even fatal , unpleasant things far better risks run naturally n't know many home birth advocates , even , think first time mother baby home i'm 've section i'm planning hospital birth time heaven 's sake , everyone needs ! people bother find relative risks wife unwilling take significant risks order nice surroundings view intensity birth experience , doubt surroundings much importance anyway somehow values 're advocating seem taking risks , even fairly small , serious permanent harm order preserve something , , consideration mark fulk university rochester computer science department fulk cs rochester edu
lawrence curcio lc2b andrew cmu edu subject analgesics organization doctoral student , public policy management , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 6 nntp posting host po2 andrew cmu edu sometimes see otc preparations muscle aches back aches combine aspirin idea seems reduce inflammation getting rid fluid actually work \? thanks , larry c
uabdpo dpo uab edu ! gila005 \( stephen holland \) subject lactose intolerance organization gastroenterology univ alabama lines 19 article ng4 husc harvard edu , ng4 husc11 harvard edu \( ho leung ng \) wrote kid primary school , used drink tons milk without problems however , nowadays , hardly drink without experiencing discomfort could responsible change \? ho leung ng ng4 husc harvard edu became older intestine normalized state , lactose tolerance unusual state adults mammals except h sapiens northern european origin h sapiens asian descent \( assumption based name \) loss normal steve holland gila005 uabdpo dpo uab edu
bennett kuhub cc ukans edu subject smoker 's lungs organization university kansas academic computing services lines 3 long take smoker 's lungs clear tar quitting \? chances getting lung cancer decrease quickly take considerable amount time happen \?
dougb comm mot com \( doug bank \) subject blood cholesterol gabe 's advice reply dougb ecs comm mot com organization motorola land mobile products sector nntp posting host 145 1 146 35 lines 29 article mojo eng umd edu , georgec eng umd edu \( george b clark \) writes forget total cholesterol assessing health risk factors instead , use relationship ldl hdl cholesterol ldl need hdl least 90 35 100 45 110 50 120 55 130 60 140 70 gee , \? ldl 50 60 \( hdl 23 25 \) must risking something , risk high ldl \? 300 , hdl 30 , drug choice \( lopid \) taken tablet thirty minutes morning evening meals exercise low fat diet \? long term effects drug \? doug bank private systems division dougb ecs comm mot com motorola communications sector dougb nwu edu schaumburg , illinois dougb casbah acns nwu edu 708 576 8207
cliff buster stafford tx us \( cliff \) subject sex problem organization buster lines 34 ls8139 albnyvms bitnet \( larry silverberg \) writes question hope taken seriously , despite subject content problem long time girlfriend lately initiating sexual activity last four months things changed dramatically make shorter summary nothing think changed suggested go sex counselor , really n't want \( yet \) suggestions would appreciated think help , please contact e mail info please serious replies thanks , larry larry subject content serious question one hand state things changed dramatically , time nothing think changed girlfriend seems want see counselor , n't 'd recommend examine hesitation see counselor 's good environment examine issues fact matter girlfriend different perception two need address issue order resolve please consider going counselor girlfriend could possibly hurt \? cliff \( \)
uabdpo dpo uab edu ! gila005 \( stephen holland \) subject prednisone significant long term side effects \? organization gastroenterology univ alabama lines 30 taking prednisone twice day control colitis seems like reduce dosage , problem becomes worse point , see taking prednisone long long time , perhaps ever wondering long term major side effects , things like potential birth defects , arthritis etc putting weight , face looks puffed round , experience sudden mood swings understand , short term second spenser aden said reply additionally , hard say type response prednisone since say long patients generally kept steroids months thinking tapering alternatives daily every day , case every day would start another option possible get prednisone start like spenser said , generally another drug addition prednisone , like lot specifics options , though , depends severity , location , duration disease , well histology , take advice net worth treat patients uc crohn 's educated patient good patient , let doctor know advice came things put context also member crohn 's colitis foundation america 1 800 932 office 1 800 343 info hotline best luck steve holland gila005 uabdpo dpo uab edu
nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \( david nye \) subject mental illness organization university wisconsin eau claire lines 13 reply adelaide edu au \( derek abbott \) case histories severe mental illness cases remarkably recovering tragic accident trauma \( eg nobody 's fault , trapped fire losing legs , say \) \? know patient severely chronically depressed tried kill bullet temple essentially gave , curing depression david nye \( nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \) midelfort clinic , eau claire wi patently absurd whoever wishes become philosopher must learn frightened absurdities bertrand russell
nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \( david nye \) subject ca n't breathe organization university wisconsin eau claire lines 15 reply ron roth rose com \( ron roth \) 're right vertebrae attached , sacrum , knowledge , adjusted either directly , applying pressure pubic bone ron , 're endless source misinformation ! vertebrae bone called sacrum end spine single , solid bone except patients s1 normal variant adjust solid bone , break \? , n't tell , n't want know david nye \( nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \) midelfort clinic , eau claire wi patently absurd whoever wishes become philosopher must learn frightened absurdities bertrand russell
rousseaua immunex com subject lactose intolerance organization immunex corporation , seattle , wa lines 8 article ng4 husc harvard edu , ng4 husc11 harvard edu \( ho leung ng \) writes kid primary school , used drink tons milk without problems however , nowadays , hardly drink without experiencing discomfort could responsible change \? ho leung ng ng4 husc harvard edu
rousseaua immunex com subject lactose intolerance organization immunex corporation , seattle , wa lines 27 article 1993apr5 59 immunex com , rousseaua immunex com writes article ng4 husc harvard edu , ng4 husc11 harvard edu \( ho leung ng \) writes kid primary school , used drink tons milk without problems however , nowadays , hardly drink without experiencing discomfort could responsible change \? ho leung ng ng4 husc harvard edu oops original message died 'll try always understood \( perhaps wrongly \) \) bacteria digestive tracts help us break components milk perhaps normal flora intestine changes one passes childhood pathologist house \? anne marie rousseau e mail rousseaua immunex com \( please note opinions mine , mine \)
kxgst1 pitt edu \( kenneth gilbert \) subject smoker 's lungs article blue organization university pittsburgh lines 21 article 1993apr5 kuhub cc ukans edu bennett kuhub cc ukans edu writes long take smoker 's lungs clear tar quitting \? chances getting lung cancer decrease quickly take considerable amount time happen \? answer first question rather difficult answer without lot autopsies second question something 's known time appears within 15 years quitting smoking person 's risk developing lung cancer drops person never smoked \( assuming get lung cancer interim ! \) risk someone smoked equivalent pack per day 40 years around 20 times high non smoker still rather low overall , significant personally , 'd concerned heart disease secondary smoking 's much common , even small increase risk significant kenneth gilbert university pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit , programmer !
kxgst1 pitt edu \( kenneth gilbert \) subject ca n't breathe article blue lines 23 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 david nye \( nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \) wrote reply ron roth rose com \( ron roth \) 're right vertebrae attached , sacrum , knowledge , adjusted either directly , applying pressure pubic bone ron , 're endless source misinformation ! vertebrae bone called sacrum end spine single , solid bone except patients s1 normal variant adjust solid bone , break \? , n't tell , n't want know oh come , surely know meant measure flow electromagnetic energy sacrum adjust flows crystal chromium applied right great toe n't know anything \? kenneth gilbert university pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit , programmer !
euclid mrcnext cso uiuc edu \( euclid k \) subject anti viral article news distribution na organization university illinois urbana lines 38 kxgst1 pitt edu \( kenneth gilbert \) writes unfortunately rather poorly researched , would available today invented keep mind however days bottle coca cola really contain coca extract certain amount active cocaine times changed , attitudes need change well , yes part point aspirin problems , situations useful ditto stuff like root taking anything drug purposes implicitly carries idea taking dose benefits exceeded unwanted , additional effects taking drug potential ill effects known risk assumed parties involved , may given situation risk worthwhile like prozac , instance prozac shown cases tri fail prozac n't use long , really n't clear effects may taken long periods time , even though tested present day standards prozac taken market long term effects , , known \? imho , 'd say euclid kenneth gilbert university pittsburgh general internal medicine pittsburgh , pa kxgst1 pitt edu dammit , programmer ! kenneth gilbert university pittsburgh general internal medicine pittsburgh , pa kxgst1 pitt edu dammit , programmer ! euclid k standard disclaimers apply bit ironic need wave model light understand propagation light part system leaves trace hudson nelson \( university physics \)
jfare 53iss6 waterloo ncr com \( jim fare \) subject ringing ears keywords ringing ears , sleep , depression reply jfare 53iss6 waterloo ncr com \( jim fare \) distribution world organization imaging systems division , ncr corp , waterloo , ont , canada lines 15 friend mine trouble ears ringing ringing loud great difficulty sleeping night says n't normal night 's sleep 6 months \( looks like \( \) making depressed doctor put anti depressants ringing started rather suddenly 6 months ago quickly losing sleep , social life sanity anyone know treatments \? experience \? coping mechanisms \? opinions anti drugs \? j f
mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) subject twitching summary different cause nntp posting host aisun3 ai uga edu organization ai programs , university georgia , athens lines 9 i'm surprised nobody mentioned twitching symptom infection , especially also stings \( happened , antibiotic cleared nicely \) michael covington internet mcovingt ai uga edu artificial intelligence programs phone 706 542 0358 university georgia fax 706 542 0349 athens , georgia 30602 7415 u amateur radio n4tmi
dyer spdcc com \( steve dyer \) subject fibromyalgia organization p dyer computer consulting , cambridge article 1231 smoke cs toronto edu craig cs toronto edu \( craig macdonald \) writes may extremely common , something like 5 population treatable type drugs \( , \) treated antidepressants \? considered condition \? drugs happen useful antidepressants neither steve dyer dyer ursa major spdcc com aka ima , harvard , rayssd , linus , m2c ! spdcc ! dyer
dyer spdcc com \( steve dyer \) subject analgesics organization p dyer computer consulting , cambridge article andrew cmu edu lawrence curcio lc2b andrew cmu edu writes sometimes see otc preparations muscle aches back aches combine aspirin certainly see otc preparations advertised ridiculous premenstrual syndrome , ostensibly treat headache simultaneously 're worthless idea seems reduce inflammation getting rid fluid actually work \? 's idea , , n't work steve dyer dyer ursa major spdcc com aka ima , harvard , rayssd , linus , m2c ! spdcc ! dyer
jmilhoan magnus acs ohio state edu \( jt \) subject ringing ears keywords ringing ears , sleep , depression nntp posting host bottom magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 50 article waterloo ncr com jfare 53iss6 waterloo ncr com \( jim fare \) writes friend mine trouble ears ringing ringing loud great difficulty sleeping night says n't normal night 's sleep 6 months \( looks like \( \) making depressed doctor put anti depressants sometimes problem doctor 's prescribing medicine like course n't know exact situation , anti depressants may work , n't helping ringing , \? ringing started rather suddenly 6 months ago quickly losing sleep , social life sanity mine started three years back turns tinnitus bilateral \( translation ringing ears , basically \) , 'll probably get used would keep drive nuts , nowadays , plug ears fingers check see ringing usually , get used , gets tuned yes , 've read personal experience anyone know treatments \? experience \? coping mechanisms \? opinions anti drugs \? millions , according physician learn cope \( like mentioned earlier \) ignoring eventually becomes unconscious doc also said could caused diet \( ie much caffeine \) stress , n't changed lifestyle much , comes goes \( always somewhat , rarely notice really kicks \) also , n't necessarily mean hearing loss , either caused causing ent \( ear nose throat \) exam , passed fact , hearing quite good considering n't take good care hearing reaction normal tinnitus , chances good 'll begin even notice info taken mostly experts , experience , readings \( sorry , years back n't specifics handy \) jt
cup portal com \( mike \) subject emphysema question organization portal system \( tm \) distribution na lines 14 friend mine going later week tests see emphysema lung capacity decreased time father died disease works believe occasional cigarette , perhaps one cigarette day even less tells 've never seen light pretty healthy life style habits , good diet , exercise , meditation , , therapy etc anyhow concerned check know really nothing disease believe interferes lining lung able exchange oxygen diagnosis emphysema death sentence \? give smoking entirely would better chances recovery \? modern therapies used people disease \? would appreciate information thanks cup portal com
jfare 53iss6 waterloo ncr com \( jim fare \) subject oily skin problem \? reply jfare 53iss6 waterloo ncr com \( jim fare \) distribution world organization imaging systems division , ncr corp , waterloo , ont , canada lines 15 article 1993apr5 1 vaxc stevens tech edu vaxc stevens tech edu writes oily skin problem wash face , becomes oily half hour especially nose region illness \? prevent occuring short time \? better job cleaning , face wo n't become oily short time n't think 's problem face quite oily moderate acne problem many years found vigorously scrub face nail brush soap \( irish spring \) twice day acne problem still leave pretty health nose print mirror 45 min \( n't ask \) acne real problem anymore j f
jim zisfein factory com \( jim zisfein \) subject migraines scans distribution world organization invention factory 's bbs new york city , ny 212 274 8298v 32bis reply jim zisfein factory com \( jim zisfein \) lines 37 dn nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \( david nye \) dn neurology dn consultation cheaper scan also better , neurologist make differential diagnosis migraine , tension type headache , cluster , benign hypertension , chronic , headache syndromes appear normal scan neurologist also recommend course treatment appropriate diagnosis dn also , since many people convinced brain tumors dn serious pathology , may cheaper get ct scan dn come er every weeks dn easier taking time reassure patient , right \? dn personally , n't think ever justified sigh may never justifiable , sometimes even try show thoroughness detailed history , neurologic examination , discussion patient diagnosis , lots , patients still ask ca n't order scan , absolutely sure \? aunt often gets conversation , ignored aunt 's headaches years , died brain tumor , , whatever get away without ever ordering imaging patient obviously benign headache syndrome , 'd like hear magic every able bypass imaging getting eeg mind , n't think eeg terribly sensitive brain tumor , patient feels like something done \( hours spent talking examining patient nothing \) , eeg radiation , 's much cheaper ct mri , eeg brings money department slmr 2 1 e mail jim zisfein factory com \( jim zisfein \)
jim zisfein factory com \( jim zisfein \) subject migraine exercise distribution world organization invention factory 's bbs new york city , ny 212 274 8298v 32bis reply jim zisfein factory com \( jim zisfein \) lines 29 jl pbs org jl would classify mild headache continuous weeks jl migraine , even typical features \( e g , jl unilateral , nausea vomiting , \) migraines , jl common agreement , rather constant jl jl well , i'm glad n't doctor , , 'd still suffering jl remember , tested cause , nothing i'm jl otherwise healthy jl nagging pain qualifications 's one side , jl frequently included entire right side right arm , right leg , right eye , jl even right side tongue hurt noise hurt , light hurt , jl thinking hurt got bad , would lose ability read differential diagnosis migraine non pain always important , therapies effective \( e g , antidepressants , non anti inflammatory drugs \) therapies may specific beta work better migraine tension type headache important thing , perspective , got relief also , please understand diagnosis migraine necessarily mean suspect organic factors play large role tension type headache migraine slmr 2 1 e mail jim zisfein factory com \( jim zisfein \)
julkunen messi uku fi \( julkunen \) subject sci med chemistry organization university kuopio , finland lines 10 newsgroup sci med physics quite lot discussion group many chemical items e g prolactin cholesterol , etc also newsgroup sci med chemistry \? julkunen , dept clinical chemistry , university kuopio , finland e mail julkunen messi uku fi , phone 358 71 , fax 358 71
copper denver colorado edu \( kathleen j turner \) subject mystery illness eye problems organization university colorado denver lines 29 friend following symptoms occurred periodically every months last 3 years episode begins extreme followed 1 traveling joint pains stiffness affecting mostly , knees , hips 2 generalized muscle pains 3 tinnitus feeling pressure ears 4 severe sweating occuring night day 5 eyes calls peripheral retinal says looks similar diabetic \( n't diabetic checked 6 distorted color vision distorted vision general \( telephone poles appear straight \) 7 loss peripheral vision many tests run normal except something called unidentified bright objects found mri brain thing seems alleviate one episodes prednisone times 60 mg per day whenever gets 10 15 mg symptoms become acute quite concerned retinal becoming worse episode vision suffering none docs seen idea condition done stop suggestions advice would greatly appreciated thanks advance kathy turner
caf omen uucp \( chuck forsberg wa7kgx \) subject new diet works great ! ! ! ! organization omen technology inc , portland rain forest lines 34 article 1993apr5 inmet camb inmet com camb inmet com \( beth \) writes 1993apr03 1 omen uucp caf omen uucp \( chuck forsberg wa7kgx \) writes gordon , experience valid many , fact know people overweight stable lower \( normal less \? \) weight contradict observation 5 10 per cent maintain ideal weight current technology actually , observation 5 10 seek help called diet evangelists maintain weight happen agree keith lynch many people lose weight , reflected failure rate often quoted n't study researcher asked general population , perhaps part university community , weight loss found much higher percentage lost maintained \? fact 101 mentions similar study \( search life events recent version 101 \) problem anecdotal reports individuals lost weight kept n't know caused weight gain first place critical someone gains weight something temporary \( drug effect , life event , etc \) may appear successful dieting weight loss really result reversing temporary condition caused weight gain chuck forsberg wa7kgx ! tektronix ! reed ! omen ! caf author ymodem , zmodem , professional yam , zcomm , dsz omen technology inc high reliability software 17505 v nw sauvie rd portland 97231 503 621 3406
swkirch sun6850 nrl navy mil \( steve kirchoefer \) subject ca n't breathe article ra organization naval research laboratory \( electronics science technology division \) lines 17 getting back original question thread experienced breathing difficulties years ago similar described case , turned developing type diabetes although never sought direct confirmation doctor , think breathing problem associated presence due diabetes think occur lesser degree one restricting food intake drastically n't know relevant case , might ask daughter eating properly steve kirchoefer \( 202 \) 767 code kirchoefer estd nrl navy mil naval research laboratory microwave technology branch washington , dc 5000 electronics sci tech division
uucp \( jim \) subject jiggers distribution world x newssoftware grn 1 16f \( 10 17 92 \) mike schwartz michael b smith organization privately owned operated uucp site lines 26 article bigboote wpi edu susan wpi wpi edu \( susan \) writes friend mine severe cause jiggers year cause lot pain recently read \( n't know \) possible cure jiggers anyone information \? ca n't remember name treatment , read 'll probably get flamed , kid would go cabin middle bass island lake erie always came home nasty case jiggers \( large red bumps buggers skin \) mother would paint bumps clear finger nail polish repeated daily week application polish supposed seals skin say worked us one word caution though putting finger nail polish bite stings like hell \( get flamed put jam pockets call toast \) ! akron oh us \( \) ! legend akron oh us
subject teenage acne pchurch swell actrix gen nz \( pat churchill \) organization actrix networks lines 26 14 son usual teenage spotty chin greasy nose bought clearasil face wash ointment think probably enough , along usual good diet however , get product called , used doctor 's prescription treatment available chemist 's counter asked couple pharmacists say either acne severe enough , clearasil ok odd spots teenager , nothing serious father , n't figure acne going escalate something know kids appearance wary neighbour 's son wierd eventually put overdose vitamin acne treatment want help appropriate treatment son also around scalp sort teenage cradle cap pointers advice \? tried couple anti inclined make condition worse , better shall bury kid till 's 21 \) floggings continue morale improves pchurch swell actrix gen nz pat churchill , wellington new zealand
rog cdc hp com \( roger \) subject sex problem article news organization hp california design center , santa clara , ca lines 15 nntp posting host hammer cdc hp com x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 larry silverberg \( ls8139 albnyvms bitnet \) wrote hello , suggested go sex counselor , really n't want \( yet \) interesting know placed info request net world see \? , think would react found \? would accept advice unknown entities rather counselor \? suggestions would appreciated see counselor well , asked
news aio jsc nasa gov \( usenet news system \) subject oily skin problem \? article aio 1993apr6 distribution sci med organization lockheed engineering sciences co lines 17 article 1993apr5 1 vaxc stevens tech edu , vaxc stevens tech edu writes hi , oily skin problem wash face , becomes oily half hour especially nose region illness \? prevent occuring short time \? better job cleaning , face wo n't become oily short time thank suggestion disease , everyone skin always oily used say hot enough , could fry egg oily face 50 yrs old skin looks younger \( i'm told \) people 's skin 30 \( 's still oily \) tiny thank lucky stars skin
watson ibm com subject contraceptive pill reply zurich ibm com disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host zurich ibm com organization watson research center lines 9 simple question seems contraceptive pill prevents ovule nest vagina forces fall every month prevent ovule true \? yes , risk extra pregnancy , development ovule inside tube \? j zurich ibm com
bmdelane quads uchicago edu \( brian manning delaney \) subject brain tumor treatment \( thanks \) reply bmdelane midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 12 people responded request info treatment email , could n't thank directly mail bouncing probs \( sean , debra , sharon \) thought 'd publicly thank everyone thanks ! \( i'm sure glad accidentally hit rn instead rm trying delete file last september hmmm \? ' 's \? \) brian
subject ca n't breathe update rginzberg eagle wesleyan edu \( ruth ginzberg \) distribution world organization philosophy dept , wesleyan university nntp posting host wesleyan edu x news reader vms news 1 20in reply nyeda cnsvax uwec edu 's message 5 apr 93 19 06 39 17 lines 17 thanks responded original post question final diagnosis stress take chiropractic adjustment \( rachel receives medical care keller army hospital since military dependant , army yet provide chiropractic adjustments part regular health care \) hoping arrival \( 1 \) spring break , \( 2 \) college acceptance letters , help unfortunately wait listed college dearly wanted attend , seems though may continue \( meanwhile going camping trip religious youth group spring break , seems like good stress reliever thanks everybody 's help advice suggestions ideas ruth ginzberg rginzberg eagle wesleyan edu philosophy department wesleyan university usa
kaminski netcom com \( peter kaminski \) subject sci med chemistry article netcom organization information via netcom san jose , california lines 19 julkunen messi uku fi julkunen messi uku fi \( julkunen \) writes newsgroup sci med physics quite lot discussion group many chemical items e g prolactin cholesterol , etc also newsgroup sci med chemistry \? 's got potential instead chemistry , splitting classification biochemistry \( probably topics 're thinking \) pharmaceutical \( otherwise might end \( bio \) chemistry \) \? \( separate issue whether sufficient potential news volume support either groups \) 'll add 'em medical health newsgroup wish list \( i'm looking forward posting discussing another 10 days \) pete
shafer rigel dfrf nasa gov \( mary shafer \) subject inner ear problems much flying \? article rigel shafer organization nasa dryden , edwards , cal lines 33 reply vida mdavcr mda ca 's message 5 apr 93 23 27 26 gmt 5 apr 93 23 27 26 gmt , vida mdavcr mda ca \( vida morkunas \) said vida one develop inner ear problems much flying \? hear vida pilots steward limit maximum vida number flying hours limits \? vida main problems associated many long haul \( 4 hours \) vida trips \? crew rest requirements prevent undue fatigue crew \( pilot \) limits somewhat stringent cabin crew limits reason crew rest requirements address amount time duty plus rest time tired crew accident prone crew limits know inner ear problems military aircraft , frequently less reliably pressurized able clear ears renders members \( duties involving flying \) grounded ears clear flying problems ears n't clear n't big pressure changes , may know 've got problem zip 5 , 000 6 , 000 ft \( usual cabin altitude airliner \) back sea level , may discover problem ears n't clear readily allergies , colds , infections , problems last wo n't change first three medication \( , usually \) help chewing gum , sucking hard candy \( bottle babies \) , help four causes mary shafer dod 0362 kotfr nasa dryden flight research facility , edwards , ca shafer rigel dfrf nasa gov course n't speak nasa mig six better mig unknown us fighter pilot
kxgst1 pitt edu \( kenneth gilbert \) subject contraceptive pill article blue lines 20 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 watson ibm com wrote simple question seems contraceptive pill prevents ovule nest vagina forces fall every month prevent ovule true \? yes , risk extra pregnancy , development ovule inside tube \? actually pill works , works oral contraceptive pill actually prevents occuring providing feedback pituitary gland , thus preventing lh surge normally occurs time happens fertilization may occur , device prevents implantation within wall uterus \( vagina \) kenneth gilbert university pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit , programmer !
cruzio santa cruz ca us subject keywords information wanted article cruzio reply cruzio santa cruz ca us lines 12 friend diagnosed , know nothing disease thing know sort skin disease , friend shows skin rashes fact , used blood test determine wrong going joint problem finding hard time finding information disease could anyone please enlighten particulars disease please feel free e mail cruzio santa cruz ca us thanks advance
chem oakland edu \( brent h \) subject oral form imitrex \( sumatriptan \) available ca article vela distribution na organization oakland university , rochester mi lines 9 nntp posting host chem oakland edu sumatriptan \( imitrex \) became available us injectable form oral form available ca \? friend \( yes really ! \) severe 2 3 times per week live right ca border gotten drugs prescribed us physician filled ca pharmacy , yet fda approved us would cost oral form ca also anyone would info \? thanks
austin ibm com \( \) subject twitching eye \? originator austin ibm com organization ibm austin lines 4 one time attributed lack sleep since disappeared nights good 's
vida mdavcr mda ca \( vida morkunas \) subject inner ear problems much flying \? organization macdonald dettwiler , commerce parkway , richmond , bc , canada v6v 2j3 lines 6 one develop inner ear problems much flying \? hear pilots steward limit maximum number flying hours limits \? main problems associated many long haul \( 4 hours \) trips \? frequent flyer
cbnewsk cb att com \( robert j brown \) subject human breast feeding myths reality \? organization summary experience three children lines 32 article tripos com , homer tripos com \( webster homer \) writes vnet ibm com \( robert j alexander md \) writes additional question long mother breast feed child \? friend mine still nursing two year old beneficial \? ex husband trying use nursing two year old proof unfit mother studies done breast feeding past year etc upon psychological health child \? web homer wife breast fed three boys 12 months , 16 months , 29 months respectively 18 , 16 , 10 years old respectively far everybody seems fairly normal noticed negative correlation ear infections length time small sample notice 16 18 year old seem eat lot , could breast feeding \) \? n't understand unfit mother charge tactic low folks divorce child custody battles developing nations practice breast feeding 3 4 years old screwed \? would much better could use cow 's milk commercial formula \? doctors \? bobby !
jose csd uwo ca \( jose \) subject recurrent organization department computer science , uwo , canada keywords nntp posting host csd uwo ca lines 35 recurrent regarding recurrent little boy suffering ever since infant surgery one year old another surgery performed one year , two years old turned three february still getting afflicted illness , like get accompanying stomach pain managed third surgery far one thing wife noticed affliction peaks around time born , , like march every year significance \? recur \? family go severe pain little boy undergo surgery surgery rectify situation \? also , hospital us canada specialize \? good book explaining disease detail \? keeping particular diet keep probability recurrence \? time goes , probability recurrence go considering getting stronger healthier probably less prone attacks \? assumption wrong \? help throwing light queries highly appreciated thanks much ! jose csd uwo ca
mrb cbnewsj cb att com \( \) subject smoker 's lungs article cbnewsj 1993apr6 distribution na organization lines 15 article 1993apr5 kuhub cc ukans edu , bennett kuhub cc ukans edu writes long take smoker 's lungs clear tar quitting \? chances getting lung cancer decrease quickly take considerable amount time happen \? seems read either recent ny times science times maybe science news evidence ex smoker 's risk lung cancer never returns person never smoked \( think may get close \) 'll find article post since memory hazy specifics interested michael
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject various migraine therapies article pitt reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 21 article olsen ch olsen ch \( foster \) writes 've treated many therapies migraine prophylaxis treatment , looks like 'll try taken \( think \) relief started per day homeopathic dose migraine got level , unlikely tolerate enough beta help go route , likely \? antidepressants work migraine prophylaxis \? probably single dose n't know work migraine , probably something gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject nerve \( nerve \) article pitt reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 16 article seismo css gov seismo css gov \( brian w barker \) writes mostly right connection vomiting fainting something nerve \? stimulation nerve slows heart drops blood pressure gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject migraines article pitt reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 19 article drand spinner osf org drand spinner osf org \( douglas rand \) writes 'll ask , neurologist prescribed cafergot alternatives try stated tablets longer available idea \? also suggested trying 800 mg found disappearing n't know perhaps n't profitable cafergot bad , since tablets sometimes migraine patients n't good flushed toilet suspect 'll moving patients dhe nasal spray , far effective gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject 3 aids related questions article pitt reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 29 article psuvm psu edu psuvm psu edu \( paula ford \) writes friend mine regular volunteer blood donor surgery , given five units blood , suitable recovery time , went donate blood hiv , know red cross notified registered letter 's counselling , nothing died two years ago , week left behind long ago \? said 'd get counselling , meant long ago , practices varied agencies gear provide counselling wife four year old son many people suggested wife sue red cross , would says without blood transfusions would died surgery good n't need everyone suing community service agencies provide blood people need testing fool proof fact got aids transfusion \( really \) mean red cross screwed prior 1983 , n't good test lot bad blood got n't fault red cross get transfusions \? gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject health care reform article pitt reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 24 article wrc com custer wrc com \( linda custer \) writes first post , even sure work goes anyone read editorial page 70 29 march 1993 edition time magazine , noting managed care extremely inefficient \? possible clients could , insurance industry worst ! comments \? agree adding layers managers bureaucrats simply eat money could spent actually work doctors nurse , supplies efficient system probably one limited management fixed budget england 's even canada 's i'm afraid wrong track problem may insurance lobby powerful gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject health care reform article pitt reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 20 article cnsvax uwec edu nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \( david nye \) writes may total disaster canadian model preferable , position agree surprising sympathy physicians , effect beating us wo n't help anything i'm sure see poll took showed people thought physicians paid 80 , 000 per year tops \? 's make , doubt physicians going work hard kind bread many would n't able service med school debts mike royko good column gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
km cs pitt edu \( ken mitchum \) subject update \( help ! \) lyme 's \? article pitt reply km cs pitt edu \( ken mitchum \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 15 article 1993mar24 equator com jod equator com \( john o'donnell \) writes imho , lyme disease told private email predicted might next start migrating pains joint imho , original poster business soliciting diagnoses net , dr mr o'donnell business supplying one major reason real physicians avoid newsgroup like plague also another example double standard physician offered diagnose treat net , sued people without qualifications free whatever want disclaim i'm doctor get keep crap net period km
km cs pitt edu \( ken mitchum \) subject patient physician diplomacy article pitt reply km cs pitt edu \( ken mitchum \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 22 article mentor cc purdue edu hrubin pop stat purdue edu \( herman rubin \) writes article 188 ky3b uucp km ky3b pgh pa us \( ken mitchum \) writes ditto disease great experience , however people much find money world buy one health everyone looks die money buy one health , talking paying medical expenses currently adequately covered \? herman , would think people would could distinguish health treatment disease prevention medicine people preach time cannot buy health buy treatment disease , assuming lucky enough disease treated rich person terminal disease bit luck thing adequately covered never 's worth , 'll first admit patients die km
km cs pitt edu \( ken mitchum \) subject cilia syndrome article pitt reply km cs pitt edu \( ken mitchum \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 31 article 1993mar26 ncsu edu andrea unity ncsu edu \( andrea free \) writes would like know new information subject new studies conducted confident pediatrician communication people chapel hill , since life long disorder genetically transferred would like keep current realize since relatively new disorder \( first documented 1974 fertility clinic \) therefore controversial know lot , except seeing one patient 's syndrome , form cilia syndrome , , chronic infections means organs wrong side body , complete partial interesting medically normal location organs caused part normal rotation associated motion , absence , random people quite popular medical schools , rarity , fact doctors get bit upset ca n't find patient 's heart sounds \( 're wrong side \) according harrison 's , cilia , imply average one child four family would affected may much current information , usual medicine , may talking one would suggest ask pediatrician contacting medical specialist , probably one ncsu km
km cs pitt edu \( ken mitchum \) subject lung disorders clubbing fingers article pitt reply km cs pitt edu \( ken mitchum \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 36 article slagle sgi417 msd lmsc lockheed com slagle lmsc lockheed com writes anyone enlighten relationship lung disorders clubbing , swelling , fingertips \? mechanism would physician call chest diagnose cause clubbing \? often distinguish true clubbing pseudo clubbing , difference true clubbing angle nail viewed side constantly negative proceeding \( towards \) pseudo clubbing , angle initially positive , negative , normal situation real talk hours clubbing i'm limited couple minutes whether distinction anything reality entirely unclear , one things love paw rounds supposedly , true clubbing associated disease problem list diseases associated clubbing quite long , includes congenital conditions acquired disease since many diseases associated problems leading right left chronic , reasonable get chest xray however , many congenital abnormalities would diagnosed cardiac cause clubbing unclear , presumably relates factor causing blood vessels clubbing one things examination extensive examination often , however , cause clubbing quite apparent km
km cs pitt edu \( ken mitchum \) subject open letter hillary clinton \( 7 \) article pitt reply km cs pitt edu \( ken mitchum \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 3 posting one replies letters \? km
km cs pitt edu \( ken mitchum \) subject menangitis question article pitt reply km cs pitt edu \( ken mitchum \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 42 article crdnns crd ge com brooksby brigham nosubdomain nodomain \( glen w brooksby \) writes past weekend friend mine lost 13 month old daughter matter hours form menangitis person informing called \( sp \? \) retrospect , disease struck probably sometime friday evening passed away 2 30pm saturday symptoms seemed rash started small began progressing rapidly began turning blue eventually tip serious time late \( second hand info \) question unusual form menangitis \? transmitted \? work \( ie kill quickly \) \? many organisms , viral , bacterial , fungal , cause , course infections varies widely causes bacterial meningitis vary age adults \( organism causes pneumonia \) common cause , children influenzae common cause describing meningitis , second common cause bacterial meningitis groups , lower incidence infants organism also called , source common meningitis occur press without prompt treatment \( even cases \) , organism typically causes death within day organism , feared , actually grown throats many normal adults get different ways , blood borne spread probably usual case \( oral antibiotic \) often given family contacts case meningitis , way sorry , n't time detailed reply meningitis huge topic , sci med ca n't justice km
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject 3 aids related questions article pitt reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 17 article psuvm psu edu psuvm psu edu \( paula ford \) writes know hiv people need think husband give blood , especially , , understand 's useful blood type 's especially useful still , n't punishing red cross person needed blood could n't get right , nagging probably wo n't help gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject update \( help ! \) lyme 's \? article pitt reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 42 article 1993mar29 equator com jod equator com \( john o'donnell \) writes n't posting physicians know lyme literature beyond co 's denial merry go round patients get correctly diagnosed treated think \? n't acting good faith \? , lyme intents purposes , famous lyme gets , famous gets n't see motive easy see physicians call everything lyme treat everything lot money involved i'm computer engineer , doctor \( , jim \) building computer manufacturing company got lyme lost several years life near total partially result , company failed , taking 150 jobs , savings , everything 'd worked years i'm one lucky ones found physician lyme foundation work almost full time , although persistent infection still suffer variety try follow lyme literature well , tragic happened , n't necessarily make objective source information whole life focussed around , may emotionally involved advising people may may lyme certainly advocacy research lyme would order , though , people like effective gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject can't breathe article pitt reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 33 article agate berkeley edu romdas uclink berkeley edu \( ella baff \) writes prostate treatment worse disease medicine really something identified prostate tissue observable changes take place , whenever occur , identified prostate cancer told subluxation \( spinal demons \) , n't exist therefore tissue damage incurred chiropractic treatment performed effort elusive silent killer , damage , joint surfaces , rib , strokes , , etc , definition worse non treatment john badanes , dc , ca email romdas uclink berkeley edu dc stand \? could n't posting chiropractor , could \? curiosity prostate ca especially troublesome entity chiropractors typically causes bone pain due spinal gets manipulated frequently manipulating cancer bone highly dangerous , since 've seen least three cases happened resulting neurologic damage , including one instance knowing read x rays really help chiropractor stay trouble chiropractors know bony mets prostate look like \? gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject menangitis question article pitt reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 42 article crdnns crd ge com brooksby brigham nosubdomain nodomain \( glen w brooksby \) writes past weekend friend mine lost 13 month old daughter matter hours form menangitis person informing called \( sp \? \) retrospect , disease struck probably sometime friday evening passed away 2 30pm saturday symptoms seemed rash started small began progressing rapidly began turning blue eventually tip serious time late \( second hand info \) question unusual form menangitis \? transmitted \? work \( ie kill quickly \) \? , one common forms meningitis 's one sometimes sweeps schools boot camp contagious kills attacking covering brain , causing blood vessels brain swell treatable caught time n't much time , however rash tip infants susceptible dying bacterial meningitis infant fever becomes stiff lethargic needs rushed hospital spinal tap show meningitis seizures also occur immediate family members told take kind medication prevent carriers , yet n't concerns wife coming visit live throat carriers n't worry , wo n't get , especially took medication gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject can't breathe article pitt reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 23 article 1993mar29 tijc02 uucp pjs269 tijc02 uucp \( paul schmidt \) writes think important verify procedures proper studies show worthiness risk read interesting tidbit 80 medical treatments unproven based scientific fact example , many treatments prostate cancer unproven treatment may dangerous disease \( according article read \) read \? n't think true think medical treatments based science , although difficult prove anything certitude true things found work , good explanation almost everything scientific rationale common treatment prostate cancer probably hormone therapy proven work radiation chemotherapy treatments article say proven \? gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
jer prefect cc bellcore com \( , janice e \) subject sinus vs migraine \( sinus endoscopy \) organization bellcore , livingston , nj summary headaches analgesics lines 95 noticed several years ago took analgesics fairly regularly , \( time \) , seemed get lot migraines forgotten started reading posts generally n't take tylenol headaches , 've found ineffective however , two pain sources force take \( currently naprosyn \) first , pelvic pain get beginning period , much worse surgery endometriosis past \( 12 years ago \) , drs tell pain probably due endometriosis coming back 've tried , reduced pain took \( 3 mos \) , pain returned immediately stopped three doctors suggested real solution problem although n't expect children , n't like idea uterus one remaining ovary removed \( first ovary removed surgery endometriosis \) one drs suggested get expert laser surgery , perhaps thinks type procedure worthwhile women still plan children basically i'm left pain would impossible without naprosyn \( something similar aspirin , n't work , gave horrible years ago , i'm \) fact , naprosyn works well eliminating pain take regularly severe back pain \( pain legs \) 'll discuss moment generally though , wait pain take naprosyn , takes several hours reduce pain \( 's actually quite effective reducing pain , takes quite \) meantime i'm frequently severe pain pain source chronic lower back pain resulting bilateral 've mris , , ct scan , \( 've 2 , n't intend ever \) nerve tests tests conclusive causing back leg pain mri reports say several , disks , \( mri , think \) apparent arthritis reading ct scan two \( l3 l4 , l4 l5 \) , others hav looked films concluded second emg nerve studies shows significant denervation compared first emg oh yeah , horrible test , called something like response showed internal nerves working fine anyway , bottom line sometimes severe pain legs back pain back pain time , live leg pain , need anti inflammatory medication reduce pain level work took naprosyn regulary 6 9 months \( every time tried stop leg pain got worse , 'd always resume \) since last november taken much less frequently , primarily pelvic pain going physical therapy last 8 months \( 2 3 times week \) first month , therapist put pelvic traction \( tried earlier , caused lot pain back , time tried lower weight \) month two , pain legs began going away \( traction caused discomfort lower back , could reduced ultrasound massage \) , n't nearly much pain legs , fact therapist took traction 2 weeks ago getting back original reason post even avoid taking headaches , really ca n't avoid entirely pain sources , force use \( oh , forgot mention suggested back surgery , i'm avoiding \) find migraines difficult deal , occassionally take work , usually work , reduced capacity \( i'm systems engineer lot reading writing \) pelvic pain bad , ca n't concentrate much , usually end jumping chair every minutes , pain bothersome pain back bad , cause severe burning legs , shooting pains legs , electric shock type pain feet toes , basically gets bad ca n't really sit end spending time home bed even analgesics contribute migraines , migraines tolerable pain sources get lot migraines , average 3 4 month , last 1 3 days 've taken cafergot \( first time really got reduced dosage \) , n't like side effects \( take two get \) get bad headache , eventually take cafergot neurologist n't helpful told problems cafergot , said sumatriptan becomes available , try 've tried several medications \( , , , , \) either n't work , could n't tolerate \? doctor 's seem satisfied trying tolerate pain , agree time , lot pain 've bad experiences surgery \( heart stopped anesthesia told likely \) , 've already surgery several times anyway , point i'm saying even analgesics contribute migraines , people need take tolerate pain janice
aldridge netcom com \( jacquelin aldridge \) subject teenage acne organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 57 pchurch swell actrix gen nz \( pat churchill \) writes 14 son usual teenage spotty chin greasy nose bought clearasil face wash ointment think probably enough , along usual good diet however , get product called , used doctor 's prescription treatment available chemist 's counter asked couple pharmacists say either acne severe enough , clearasil ok odd spots teenager , nothing serious father , n't figure acne going escalate something know kids appearance wary neighbour 's son wierd eventually put overdose vitamin acne treatment want help appropriate treatment son also around scalp sort teenage cradle cap pointers advice \? tried couple anti inclined make condition worse , better shall bury kid till 's 21 \) \) one lucky ones little acne teenager n't luck clearasil even though skin gets oily really gets miserable 's dry frequent lukewarm water face might help getting scalp thing control might help \( could simple till 's washing \) taking one day vitamin mineral might help 've heard causes trouble used fast food restaurants equipment might belief greasy foods cause acne came notice grease face , immediately removed cause acne \( even eating meat \) keeping hair , , dip , spray face help warm water bath face oil help prevent body oil , loves water chance 's hair goes limp becoming convinced best thing whitehead leave alone save days misery black cause infections , red spots usually whitehead break naturally day wo n't infection afterwards tell 's normal cosmetic industry makes 's money selling people idea incredible defect hidden cost \( even causing \) jackie
mark w dubin subject ringing ears originator dubin spot colorado edu keywords ringing ears , sleep , depression nntp posting host spot colorado edu reply dubin spot colorado edu organization univ colorado boulder lines 31 jfare 53iss6 waterloo ncr com \( jim fare \) writes friend mine trouble ears ringing etc folks , faq tinnitus yet \? b lo ong time sufferer tinnitus looked literature carefully believe following reasonable conclusions 1 millions people suffer chronic tinnitus 2 cause understood 3 accepted treatment cures 4 experimental treatments may helped people bit , reports even anecdotal massive good results experimental drugs 5 people chronic loud tinnitus use noise blocking get sleep 6 sudden onset loud tinnitus caused injuries sometimes goes away months 7 aspirin well known exacerbate tinnitus people 8 national association tinnitus sufferers us 9 one usually gets used especially concentrating something else tinnitus becomes unnoticed 10 stress lack sleep make tinnitus annoying , sometimes 11 i'm sure us wish cure , mark dubin ol' professor
sasghm theseus unx sas com \( gary merrill \) subject jiggers originator sasghm theseus unx sas com nntp posting host theseus unx sas com organization sas institute inc lines 62 may world 's greatest expert chiggers \( type indigenous south \) , certainly spent lot time contemplating little buggers past six years \( since moved n c \) observations gained painful experience 1 reactions chiggers vary greatly person person people get tiny red bites others \( like \) sensitive get fairly large swollen sore like affairs 2 bites gift keeps giving swear things itch months 3 lot folklore chiggers think fiction tried research critters , since effect book could find subject single book unc 's special collections library yet gone required get 4 based experience family members , old folk remedy fingernail polish simply n't work recall reading theory upon based \( chiggers skin continue party \) false think likely reaction toxins sort little release speculation 5 best approach prevention couple things work well good insect repellent \( \) deep woods liberally applied , , etc good start another preparation called away combination sulfur kind cream \( cortisone \? \) originally prepared army commercially available summer put every morning get weekends since literally ca n't go outside live \( country \) without serious consequences \( apparently n't like sulfur much use sulfur dust body clothing repel \) 6 amount prevention completely successful forget fingernail polish finally settled upon treatment involves topical application combination cortisone \( reduces inflamation swelling \) \( itch \) wo n't tell things 've tried tell things wife since counts minor surgery best mentioned \( also think gains nothing \) 7 swelling also significantly relieved application hot packs , seems speed recovery well doctors seem care much chiggers urban suburban doctors apparently n't encounter much rural doctors seem regard force nature one must endure suspect anyone could come good treatment chiggers would make lot money gary h merrill principal systems developer , c compiler development sas institute inc sas campus dr cary , nc 27513 \( 919 \) 677 8000 sasghm theseus unx sas com ! mcnc ! sas ! sasghm
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject new diet works great ! ! ! ! reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 20 article inmet camb inmet com camb inmet com \( beth \) writes article lynx unm edu bhjelle carina unm edu \( \) writes hand , good job implying person weighs fact , body probably n't make moral judgements composition conceivably , body works hard maintaining weight 400 someone else 's 200 undoubtedly , maintain weight primarily n't , weight would drop back normal gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 18 article werner soe berkeley edu werner soe berkeley edu \( john werner \) writes article pitt uucp , geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) wrote explain thought 3 types cones , equivalent rgb 're basically right , think 2 types one sensitive red green , sensitive blue yellow two common kinds color blindness red green blue yellow yes , remember well , case , cones indeed color sensitive , contrary original respondent claimed gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject sinus vs migraine \( sinus endoscopy \) reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 16 article lauger lauger mdc com lauger ssdgwy mdc com \( john lauger \) writes article pitt uucp , geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) wrote 's best approach getting analgesics something two approaches 've used , 50 mg , bid n't seem bad things like tylenol promoting abuse headache dhe iv 3 days \( hospital \) cold turkey way think tapering n't help would n't know without doctor n't seen anyone successfully alone n't mean ca n't done gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject sinus vs migraine \( sinus endoscopy \) reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 15 article 1993mar26 news eng convex com cash convex com \( peter cash \) writes way , brain even pain receptors \? thought heard brain surgery performed patient conscious precisely reason , , n't talking receptors brain 's sensory , structures handle pain entire organism apples oranges gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject tuberculosis reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 20 article 1993mar25 852 news columbia edu cunixa cc columbia edu \( jonathan h lin \) writes wondering steps taken prevent spread multi drug resistant tuberculosis 've heard places thinking disease n't violate civil rights individuals \? legal precedents action \? knows legal climate , tremendous legal forcibly tb patients 100 yrs ago done time done along patients wo n't take medicine tb may find public health department may find legal power insist make clinic visits gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 14 article 1993mar26 cs rochester edu fulk cs rochester edu \( mark fulk \) writes article castle ed ac uk castle ed ac uk \( h \) writes compensation \? lesions localized sc rare able tell \? extremely rare humans usually much else involved 'd mess sort birds vision , n't \? gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject name md 's eyepiece \? reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 13 article watson ibm com clarke watson ibm com \( ed clarke \) writes 's eyepiece called head mirror doctors never speculum \? speculum little cone fits end also vaginal females familiar gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject patient physician diplomacy reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 18 article 1993mar29 aoa aoa utc com carl aoa aoa utc com \( carl \) writes unacceptable hospitals mds law choice treat show sick mangled accident n't rich insurance , going foot bills \? actually intend tell ambulance , let die gutter ca n't afford treatment \? \? law , would allowed anyhow gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject exercise hypertension reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 18 article psuvm psu edu rfm psuvm psu edu writes took stress test couple weeks back , results came back noting exercise hypertension fool , n't ask doc meant , n't explain i'm wondering anyone enlighten promise , next time 'll ask ! probably meant blood pressure went normal 'll ask meant , since one else answer another person gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject degeneration reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 16 article edu edu \( \( ken todd \) \) writes would like information available rare disease understand operation referred may order anyone know physician performs procedure responses appreciated please respond via email edu n't rare , actually many cases called parkinson 's disease turn autopsy snd suspected case without tremor respond l therapy n't believe much snd gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject meniere real remedy \? reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 39 article netcom com lindae netcom com writes biggest resentment doctor makes seem like people dizziness cured 's definitely case cases , like said , long , tedious process may may end partial cure sure say chronic dizziness , dizziness patients acute dizziness get better spells meniere 's also eventually go away , however , patient left deaf ear anyone suffering vertigo , dizziness , variation thereof , best advice \( fellow sufferer \) keep searching n't let doctors tell 's nothing done research let may helped , i'm sure good general advice odds going find miracle research secret hidden general knowledge disease slim good answers problems found , usually newspapers , spending great deal time energy medical problem may divert energy productive things life limited amount spent assure doctor gave correct story , becomes clear dealing problem medicine good solution , perhaps best strategy join support group keep new findings make career gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject donating organs reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 24 article 1993mar25 sbcs sunysb edu mhollowa ic sunysb edu \( michael holloway \) writes dr banks , n't know make point keeping liver transplant research 're certainly right place questions anything recent transplant proceedings somesuch , \? liver section transplants living donors \? i'm sure pittsburgh group published baboon work , n't know chicago lobe transplants living donors , i'm sure 've published n't read transplant literature see liver transplant patients get neurologic trouble \( pretty frequent \) , newspapers way keep howard doyle works , tell gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject update \( help ! \) lyme 's \? reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 24 article 1993mar24 equator com jod equator com \( john o'donnell \) writes imho , lyme disease sent private email summary treatment protocols put forth lyme disease foundation respectfully suggest save great deal suffering contacting lyme knowledgeable physician referral seek treatment 'll know 2 weeks 're right course clock 6 weeks 1 800 886 lyme folks think , lyme knowledgeable may mean physician everything walks door lyme disease , treated lyme , whether hope good insurance gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject use reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 18 article 1993mar26 aio jsc nasa gov aio jsc nasa gov \( steve lancaster \) writes 3 \) way around scheduled drug mess use substance works one tylenol \? md year long supply one script \? doctor basically refused prescribe , saying clinic prescribe controled substances rule ! short changes feds , way alone difficult prescribe without lot hassles tylenol 3 best compromise way get amount getting wo n't hurt gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject migraines estrogen reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 12 article jupiter spk wa us jupiter spk wa us \( \) writes read hormonal fluctuations contribute migraines , could taking supplemental estrogen \( \) cause migraines \? information i'm sure much estrogen level taking certainly cause migraines women gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject migraine exercise reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 20 article world std com rsilver world std com \( richard silver \) writes two questions obvious connection flushed appearance migraine \? foolish play migraine \( aside visual disturbance affecting play \) \? prefer ignore possible flushing due dilation , part migraine attack people event get swollen long careful see well enough avoid getting hit face eye ball , migraine hurt health gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject new multiple sclerosis drug \? reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 13 article news duke edu adm neuro duke edu \( alan \) writes disclaimer speak wanted say \? gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject need info rsd reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 13 article central sun com central sun com writes started working rehabilitation hospital seen rsd come diagnosis several times exactly rsd nature \? faq subject , 'd really appreciate someone would mail sympathetic i'm sure 's faq , made least 10 answers questions last year gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
km ky3b pgh pa us \( ken mitchum \) subject tuberculosis organization ky3b vax pittsburgh , pa lines 19 article 1993mar25 914 news wesleyan edu , rginzberg eagle wesleyan edu \( ruth ginzberg \) writes 'll damned , rights sick fail treat disease spread place , indeed preserved happy \? several years ago tried commit patient growing stool , blood , open ulcer treatment idea guy walking public health risk , forcing receive iv antibiotics days public interest make long story short saying judge laughed idea , yelled wasting time , let guy go found tuberculosis appears medical \( psychiatric \) condition one committed , specific laws enacted many years ago regarding tb certain vary state state legal experts help us \? km
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 14 article julian uwo ca roberts gaul csd uwo ca \( eric roberts \) writes could someone please tell , effect overdose \( 900 \) would \? probably would fatal adult dose , could kill child patient would , , low blood pressure possibly cardiac arrhythmias gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject medication reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 15 article uupcb factory com jim zisfein factory com \( jim zisfein \) writes want throw around names , drs donald , terry , jesse n't recommend \( mention dr william landau \) gosh , jesse famous \? intern landau liking makes like spite \( kidding , bill \) gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject fingernail moons reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 16 article calcom socal com daniel prince f129 n102 z1 calcom socal com \( daniel prince \) writes thumbs medical significance finding \? thank advance replies try skin back base \( hard , , n't want hurt \) 'll find nice little peel back enough gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject health care reform reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 20 article wrc com custer wrc com \( linda custer \) writes also , i'm sure physician fees , highest levels n't come \( i'm talking bulk physicians making good great salaries mega loans medical school debts \) 'd also like see strong ethics teeth physicians agree specialties gotten way line main problem payment method procedures rather time system hope fix i'm afraid , usual , local doc going take people paying 50 see home doctor office , n't mind paying 20 , 000 brain surgery think local doc cheating worship feet neurosurgeon saved life n't realize need local docs fewer gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject high prolactin reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 12 article psuvm psu edu psuvm psu edu \( john e \) writes comments use drug high prolactin blood \? suppress prolactin useful cases pituitary secret much gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 33 article bbn hp com bbn hp com \( denninger \) writes 1 dangerous \? especially dangerous \? dangerous immune suppressed persons fetuses , extremely dangerous rest us already n't dangerous 2 transmitted \( read raw meat cats , 'd like details \) \? cat feces worst pregnant women never touch litter box 3 done prevent infection \? cook meat watch pets 4 symptoms long term effects \? 'll read 5 treatments \? effective antibiotic keep check course , ca n't reverse damage already done , fetus gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject new diet works great ! ! ! ! reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 16 article 1993mar30 omen uucp caf omen uucp \( chuck forsberg wa7kgx \) writes sometime future diet evangelists may get diet work obese would obey mode useful research allow prediction types diet might useful given individual diet evangelist good term fits atkins gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject patients read package inserts \( pdr \) \? reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 48 article 1993mar29 930 news wesleyan edu rginzberg eagle wesleyan edu \( ruth ginzberg \) writes hmmmm 's one place really think patient ought take responsibility absolutely reason ca n't ask pharmacist filling prescription physicians' package insert medication pick pharmacy make sure tell pharmacist want physicians' package insert people going , really wish would tell first 'd happy go insert \( pdr \) explain everything many patients read insert panic next visit admit afraid take drug starting square one probably n't even come back followup n't want admit would n't take drug thought trying kill something people n't understand inserts report every adverse side effect ever reported , without drug responsible insert legal document slough liability manufacturer physician something happen patients want useful reliable information drug would much better getting hold one ama drug evaluation books something similar much scientific drugs someone n't reported death taking patients n't realize n't usually appreciate risks properly i'm sure herman going go ballistic , another problem probably drugs reported cause impotence half males read falsely assume could permanently cause lose sexual function refuse take drug like real problem pdr readers needs way providing patients tools geared allow get information need involved research project , migraine domain involves computer system provide answers questions migraine well therapy prescribed patient common illnesses , migraine hypertension , may help quite bit patient could spend much time needed computer would burden physician clearly , physicians large part fail answer questions patients , demonstrated net get asked things patients found physician n't n't n't always physician 's fault either sometimes patients afraid ask wo n't afraid ask system , hope gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject tuberculosis reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 17 article 206 ky3b uucp km ky3b pgh pa us \( ken mitchum \) writes found tuberculosis appears medical \( psychiatric \) condition one committed , specific laws enacted many years ago regarding tb certain vary state state think illinois disease \( old ones , aids \) included , sure gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject tuberculosis reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 26 article 1993mar29 iscsvax uni edu klier iscsvax uni edu writes multiple drug resistance tb relatively new phenomenon , one largest contributing factors people longer scared tb antibiotics \( roughly feared hiv \) new 20 years ago , drug addicts active tb resistant everything \( chicago \) difference strains become old days , tb weak n't spread people easily infected one person developed \( non compliance medications \) non compliance development resistant strains problem long time like 9 drugs tb always need develop new ones due strains , however , resistant strain , trouble , measures assure compliance may necessary even entail force gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject fungus epidemic ca \? reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) distribution na organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 19 article steward cup portal com \( john joseph \) writes story weeks ago network news show sort fungus supposedly attacks bone structure somewhat widespread california anybody hear anything one \? fungus know california n't heard attacked bone attacks lung especially unlucky , central nervous system nothing new 's around years call valley fever , since found inland valleys , coast gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject travel outside us \( bangladesh \) reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 17 article tamsun tamu edu ee tamu edu \( george \) writes traveling summer , wondering immunizations get going probably get information calling public health department county \( pittsburgh , give shots free , well \) bulletins medical libraries give recommendations , could call infectious diseases section medicine department local medical school also probably want talk malaria prophylaxis need doctor get prescription gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject compartment syndrome general information , references , etc keywords compartment syndrome , blood clots reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 20 article 639 boeing com boeing com \( larry \) writes acquaintance diagnosed blood clots compartment syndrome searched latest edition columbia medical encyclopedia found nothing 's medical dictionary gives brief description suggests 's condition someone point \( compartment syndrome occurs swelling happens compartment bounded fascia pressure rises compartment blood supply nerves compromised treatment open compartment surgically common places compartment syndromes forearm calf emergency , since pressure relieved , stuff die gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject x rays reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 22 article 1993mar30 leland stanford edu leland stanford edu \( lin \) writes first question bad x ray \? 've heard 's nothing compared amount time spent sun 've also heard harmful second question anyway yearly test \? yearly chest x ray provides minute amount radiation drop bucket far increased risk concerned tell whether get \? one controls may well matter law , case , write legislator , n't hold breath gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
wright hi com \( david wright \) subject name md 's eyepiece \? organization hitachi computer products , division lines 21 nntp posting host hi com article pitt uucp geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) writes article watson ibm com clarke watson ibm com \( ed clarke \) writes 's eyepiece called head mirror doctors never speculum \? speculum little cone fits end also vaginal females familiar fairness , note look speculum dictionary \( question first surfaced \) , first definition mirror polished metal plate used reflector optical instruments n't mean name fits context , 's far might think david wright , hitachi computer products \( america \) , inc waltham , wright hi com opinions , necessarily hitachi 's , though opinions right thinking people
mrl uiuc edu \( \) subject mystery illness spots reply bitnet \( \) organization materials research lab lines 13 attended high school san jose , california area early 1980 's , remember \( smallish \) outbreak strange illness , people developed like spots bodies condition seemed last days , n't recall anyone reporting symptoms seem recall reading somewhere believed viral nature , n't know sure however , curious since anyone ideas might \?
walkup cs washington edu \( elizabeth walkup \) subject menangitis question organization computer science engineering , u washington , seattle distribution na lines 19 article pitt uucp geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) writes one common forms meningitis 's one sometimes sweeps schools boot camp contagious kills attacking covering brain , causing blood vessels brain swell live throat carriers n't worry , wo n't get , especially took medication assuming one cultured throat laden given \( taken \) course without culture becoming negative , one worry carrier \? elizabeth walkup cs washington edu
crux3 cit cornell edu \( nathan otto \) subject analgesics reply dyer spdcc com 's message tue , 6 apr 1993 03 28 57 gmt nntp posting host crux3 cit cornell edu organization department chemistry , cornell univ lines 34 tue , 6 apr 1993 03 28 57 gmt , dyer spdcc com \( steve dyer \) said article andrew cmu edu lawrence curcio lc2b andrew cmu edu writes sometimes see otc preparations muscle aches back aches combine aspirin certainly see otc preparations advertised ridiculous premenstrual syndrome , ostensibly treat headache simultaneously 're worthless idea seems reduce inflammation getting rid fluid actually work \? 's idea , , n't work believe known certain analgesics treating pain , inflammation convert n't taken time , really works ! \( grin \) nathan steve dyer dyer ursa major spdcc com aka ima , harvard , rayssd , linus , m2c ! spdcc ! dyer bb ` , nathan tn cornell edu ` bbbbb , ` `` p , ` `p
world std com \( edwin barkdoll \) subject organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 64 article pitt uucp geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) writes article werner soe berkeley edu werner soe berkeley edu \( john werner \) writes article pitt uucp , geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) wrote explain thought 3 types cones , equivalent rgb 're basically right , think 2 types one sensitive red green , sensitive blue yellow two common kinds color blindness red green blue yellow yes , remember well , case , cones indeed color sensitive , contrary original respondent claimed i'm sure original respondent reiterate cones respond particular portions spectrum , rods respond certain parts visible spectrum \( case , certain \) , crab respond certain portion spectrum etc common misconception wavelength color sensitive , however two synonymous sum beat dead horse \( 1 \) outputs cone matched number absorbed photons irrespective absorbed photons wavelength , cone outputs indistinguishable \( 2 \) cones simply detectors different spectral color sensitive rods , \( 3 \) color vision arises outputs receptors sample different parts spectrum \( cones case \) processed centrally \( intentional \) 've worked published research rods cones 10 years adherence belief cones detect color frustrating n't take word i'm reposting excellent articles together two rather good color vision texts texts robert \( 1979 \) human color vision holt , winston leo \( 1981 \) color vision , associates original articles baylor \( 1973 \) detection resolution visual turtle , j physiol 234 198 baylor lamb yau \( 1978 \) retinal rods single photons j physiol 288 634 et al \( 1990 \) visual cones monkey j physiol 427 713 edwin barkdoll barkdoll lepomis psych upenn edu world std com edwin barkdoll world std com
doyle pitt edu \( howard r doyle \) subject donating organs article blue organization pittsburgh transplant institute lines 31 article pitt uucp geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) writes article 1993mar25 sbcs sunysb edu mhollowa ic sunysb edu \( michael holloway \) writes anything recent transplant proceedings somesuch , \? liver section transplants living donors \? i'm sure pittsburgh group published baboon work , n't know chicago lobe transplants living donors , i'm sure 've published case report first published lancet 1993 341 65 71 send reprint interested another paper , sort tour horizon , written starzl published resident 's edition annals surgery \( vol 216 , october 1992 \) 's surgical resident 's newsletter section , wo n't find regular issue annals n't reprints one paper accepted publication today , though i'm sure 's coming , describing experience two done date liver transplants living related donors must confess total ignorance literature philosophically opposed , n't keep particular field howard doyle doyle pitt edu
mcelwre cnsvax uwec edu subject natural anti cancer aids remedies organization university wisconsin eau claire lines 224 biggest reason cost medical care extremely high increasing natural methods treatment even diagnosis still systematically ignored suppressed money grubbing power mongering medical establishment examples low cost natural anti cancer remedies listed following article natural anti cancer remedies 3rd opinion \( remedies also work aids \) disclaimer list compiled unorthodox sources shown reliable compiler list doctor kind , exercising first amendment constitutional right free speech subjects choice \( remedies found grocery store rest found health food store important used , else excluded use \) \( 1 \) 7 day fast 1st day eat much fresh fruit want , one kind time , preferably grapes 2nd day eat vegetables want , least half raw , including garlic also , whole kernel corn help scrape clean intestinal linings 3rd day drink fresh fruit vegetable juice want preferably start 16 32 ounces juice pulp , followed gallon pure \( concentrate \) apple juice , grape juice \( stay close home bathroom \) 4th day eat un nuts \( peanuts \) dried fruit want , preferably almonds \( almonds contain laetrile \) 5th day one gallon squeeze juice two lemons gallon water \( preferably distilled \) , add 2 4 locally made honey , \( sugar \) drink one glass per hour everyone , including healthy people , one day every week , preceded large glass juice pulp 6th day 5th day 7th day 6th day 7 days , eat foods listed day , along usual vitamin mineral supplements , plus much distilled water want \( 2 \) grape diet eat 2 3 ounces fresh grapes every 2 hours , 8 8 pm , every day six days eat nothing else six days , drink much distilled water want \( 3 \) apple cider vinegar mix pure apple cider vinegar \( apple cider vinegar regular vinegar harmful \) glass water \( preferably distilled \) drink 3 4 times per day , 3 weeks stop week repeat desired along normal healthy diet natural foods remedy especially effective types cancer resemble fungus , well kinds fungus infections \( 4 \) sea salt soda bath please keep open mind fill moderately warm water level comes almost overflow drain get minute , completely dissolve bath water 1 pound sun evaporated sea salt \( regular salt wo n't work \) 1 pound fresh soda soak bath 10 20 minutes , exercising fingers , toes , limbs , turning sideways onto stomach , head , sitting laying back , teeth together , etc among things , sea salt soda bath accumulated effects x rays , etc , described book born magnetic , vol 2 , frances nixon , 1973 precautions one person using bath prepare drain least 30 minutes taking bath , stay away , even sight , people \( greatly expanded aura energy field time could disrupt people 's fields \) two hours bath , eat least 8 ounces yogurt containing active yogurt cultures \( bath may kill friendly bacteria also \) better yet , take 2 billion bacteria acidophilus capsule , also excellent daily remedy effects \( kills kinds harmful bacteria digestive tract , taking big load remaining immune system \) external bath kill bacteria , may also cure lyme disease take bath within hundred miles thunder storm , within 3 days full moon , major minor periods listed tables published bimonthly field stream magazine , \( measurable disruptive ambient environmental energy fields present times \) take bath four times per year \( 5 \) miscellaneous natural anti cancer remedies skin cancer , apply stabilized vera affected skin twice daily , take 2 4 per day stabilized vera juice internally , 2 months \( \) causes cancer cells perform normal cell functions almonds \( un , un roasted \) contain laetrile help prevent cancer , eat several almonds every day help cure cancer , eat several ounces almonds per day never take large concentrated doses laetrile orally kill ! take \( cancer cells contain certain enzyme converts laetrile cyanide , kills cell enzyme also present digestive system \) anti free radical , include vitamin e , \( 200 per day safe people \) , chromium \( 100 per day \) , vitamin \( 25 , 000 iu per day safe people \) , \( 4 , 000 , 000 units per day \) , vitamin c \( 3000 mg per day \) , \( \) , 1 4 capsules every night also make one immune herpes \( types \) , suppress herpes symptoms one already herpes , prevent spreading herpes people , cure herpes might also things , really form cancer similar \( see book life extension , pearson sandy shaw \) hydrogen peroxide dilute twelve \( 12 \) drops 3 hydrogen peroxide glass pure water \( preferably distilled \) drink twice per day , hours eating drinking anything else apply 3 hydrogen peroxide directly skin cancers several times per day use hydrogen peroxide taking good daily dose various anti described vitamin mineral supplements effective , much less expensive , combined together mega doses single tablets made natural sources cancer cells live strong \( 100 , 000 maxwell \) north magnetic field , especially strong south magnetic field opinion , types radiation treatments cancer replaced daily 30 minute doses 100 , 000 maxwell north magnetic fields properly made operated machines diagnose cure forms cancer , well medical problems machines even take cross sectional x ray like photos cancer tumors , etc , x rays ! tablets tea , \( \) homeopathy cure cancer , many medical problems \( even drug addiction ! \) 50 mg per day zinc help prevent cure prostate trouble list exhaustive natural remedies cure diagnosed un diagnosed cancers , well prevent , also prevent cure many medical problems including heart diseases simple inexpensive work effectively besides acting person biologically chemically , remedies , especially 7 day fast grape diet , send strong message one 's mind , programming cure cancer opinion , person finds cancer , promptly try least first 4 remedies described , sequence \( starting 7 day fast \) , resorting un natural expensive poison , burn , ! orthodox cancer treatment organi ed crime ! disclaimer list compiled unorthodox sources shown reliable compiler list doctor kind , exercising first amendment constitutional right free speech subjects choice information , contact cancer control society , n st , los angeles , ca , tions listed alternative medicine medicine portions health medical organizations section \( section 8 \) latest edition dia associations reference book local public university library un altered reproduction dissemination important information encouraged robert e mcelwaine
bhjelle carina unm edu \( \) subject fungus epidemic ca \? organization university new mexico , albuquerque lines 26 distribution na nntp posting host carina unm edu article pitt uucp geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) writes article steward cup portal com \( john joseph \) writes story weeks ago network news show sort fungus supposedly attacks bone structure somewhat widespread california anybody hear anything one \? fungus know california n't heard attacked bone attacks lung especially unlucky , central nervous system nothing new 's around years call valley fever , since found inland valleys , coast mini epidemic occurring , believe , owen 's valley bishop area east n't believe great insight increased incidence area low level endemic infection region many people evidence past exposure organism serious disease brian
ucs indiana edu \( \) subject please provide info nntp posting host ucs indiana edu organization indiana university lines 9 currently group research project drug would exponentially gracious receive information could provide regarding usage , history , mechanism reaction , side effects , pertinent information n't care long short response thanks advance ! brent e shelley
lindae netcom com subject meniere real remedy \? organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 87 article pitt uucp geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) writes article netcom com lindae netcom com writes biggest resentment doctor makes seem like people dizziness cured 's definitely case cases , like said , long , tedious process may may end partial cure sure say chronic dizziness , dizziness patients acute dizziness get better spells meniere 's also eventually go away , however , patient left deaf ear true good points anyone suffering vertigo , dizziness , variation thereof , best advice \( fellow sufferer \) keep searching n't let doctors tell 's nothing done research let may helped , i'm sure good general advice odds going find miracle research secret hidden general knowledge disease slim good answers , spending great deal time energy medical problem may divert energy productive things life limited amount spent assure doctor gave correct story , becomes clear dealing problem medicine good solution , perhaps best strategy join support group keep new findings make career well , making career bit strong still believe research , necessary would progressed much today , unless spent many hours stanford 's med library done 5 years ago , clear medicine would help stopped searching thank goodness n't found indeed medicine helps think 've said kind idealistic would go one doctor , get diagnosis , maybe get second opinion , move life example seen 6 top specialists field country , received 6 different diagnoses top names , ones people come country sort going support group \( fact , heading support group \) helpful , point , found unproductive much productive library research , make phone calls put together pieces puzzle recent movie , lorenzo 's oil , offers perfect example i'm talking n't seen , 's put doctor 's neither i'm saying doctors human much us intelligent able sometimes find missing piece puzzle might otherwise gone unnoticed guess i'm biased dizziness one weird things still unknown broken arm , weak heart , failing kidneys , might opinion 's things much tangible much concise definitions treatments dizziness , decide live decide live trying find way chosen latter linda lindae netcom netcom com gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
dan wallach dwallach cs berkeley edu subject faq typing injuries \( 3 4 \) keyboard alternatives monthly posting supersedes typing injury faq keyboards cs berkeley edu organization university california , berkeley lines 652 expires 22 may 1993 01 24 03 gmt reply dan wallach dwallach cs berkeley edu nntp posting host elmer fudd cs berkeley edu summary everything ever wanted know replacing keyboard originator dwallach elmer fudd cs berkeley edu archive name typing injury faq keyboards version revision 5 11 date 1993 04 13 01 20 43 answers frequently asked questions keyboard alternatives alternative keyboard faq copyright 1992 , 1993 dan wallach dwallach cs berkeley edu opinions , unless otherwise mentioned , represent opinions organization vendor current distribution sci med occupational , sci med , comp human factors , news , sci , comp answers , e mail c health ucs indiana edu , sorehand vm ucsf edu , l vtvm1 cc vt edu changes since previously distributed versions marked change bars right text , paragraph information faq together phone conversations , e mail , product literature hope 's useful , information neither comprehensive error free find something wrong missing , please mail , 'll update list thanks phone numbers , unless otherwise mentioned , u phone numbers monetary figures , unless otherwise mentioned , u dollars products covered faq using pc 's keyboard workstation compatibility issues apple computer , inc key tronic flexpro dragon systems bat datahand comfort keyboard system kinesis ergonomic keyboard maltron tony ! ergonomic vertical mikey wave minimal motion computer access system half qwerty braille 'n speak gif pictures many products available via anonymous ftp soda berkeley edu pub typing injury \( 128 32 149 19 \) highly recommend getting pictures tell much fit file ca n't ftp , send mail , 'll uuencode mail \( 're pretty big \) using pc 's keyboard workstation compatibility issues mini outline 1 spoofing keyboard serial port 2 x terminals 3 next 4 silicon graphics 5 ibm rs 6000 6 stuff 1 spoofing keyboard serial port 've got proprietary computer uses keyboard \( sun , hp , dec , etc \) 're going hard time finding vendor sell compatible keyboard workstation runs x window system , 're luck buy cheap used pc , hook expensive keyboard , run serial cable workstation , run program workstation read serial port generate fake x keyboard events two main programs 've found kt a2x a2x sophisticated program , capable controlling mouse , even moving among widgets screen requires server extension \( , dec xtrap , \) find server , run see strings appear extensions list server n't , may want investigate compiling x11r5 , patchlevel 18 later , bugging vendor kt simpler program , work x servers another program called xsendevent also exists , n't seen a2x kt available via anonymous ftp soda berkeley edu 2 x terminals also , number x terminals \( ncd , tektronics , name \) use pc compatible keyboards x terminal , may set try normal pc keyboard go trouble buying alternative keyboard also , x terminals add extra buttons may need keep original keyboard around blue moon hit setup key 3 next next announced new next machines use apple desktop bus , meaning mac keyboard work , announced hardware production want kind upgrade older next , ! 4 silicon graphics silicon graphics announced newer machines \( indigo 2 beyond \) use standard pc compatible keyboards mice n't believe also applies power series machines 's possible upgrade older sgi use pc keyboards , except upgrading entire machine contact sgi sales rep details 5 ibm rs 6000 ibm rs 6000 keyboards actually similar normal pc keyboards unfortunately , ca n't plug one need two things cable converter go large pc keyboard connector smaller ps 2 style din 6 , new device driver aix believe , ibm wrote device driver recently , used , works however , n't want redistribute 've told judy \( 512 \) 823 potential contact learn anything new , please send e mail 6 stuff vendors \( notably health care keyboard co \) support odd keyboard types , may responsive queries regarding supporting weird computer get sufficient keyboard works \( either vendor , storage oscilloscope \) , may luck contact companies details apple adjustable keyboard apple computer , inc sales offices place availability february , 1993 price 219 supports mac apple recently announced new split design keyboard keyboard one section hand , sections rotate backward hinge sections tilt upward keys arranged normal qwerty fashion main keyboard resembles normal apple keyboard separate keypad contains extended key functions keyboard also comes matching wrist rests , directly keyboard soon soda comes back , 'll detailed blurb tidbits available flexpro keyboard key tronic phone 800 262 possible contact , 509 927 sold many clone vendors pc shops availability spring , 1993 \( \? \) price 489 \( \? \) supports pc \( highly likely \) apparently showed prototype keyboard comdex 's another split design one thumb wheel controls tilt left right hand sides main section arrow keys keypad resemble normal 101 key pc keyboard makes standard pc keyboards , also , product probably sold standard distribution channels dragondictate 30k \( numerous dragon products \) dragon systems , inc 320 nevada street newton , phone 800 talk 617 965 5200 fax 617 527 0372 shipping price dragondictate 30k \( end user system \) 1000 \( end user developer system \) various prices service contracts , site licenses , etc compatibility 386 \( higher \) pc \( 3rd party support mac \) free software support x windows also available pc dragon hardware talks workstation serial cable network program called a2x , available via anonymous ftp soda berkeley edu pub typing injury a2x tar z export lcs mit edu contrib a2x tar z \( current \) want use dragon product x windows , may want ask peter cohen , salesman dragon knows sort thing dragon systems sells number voice recognition products \( \) seem run pc 's compatibles \( including ps 2 's microchannel boxes \) sell hardware board software sits front number popular word processors spreadsheets user system voice , provisions correct system makes mistakes , fly multiple people use , load different personality file person still get use normal keyboard , dragondictate 30k need pause 1 10th sec words dragon claims typical input speeds 30 40 words per minute n't specs 1000 dragondictate 30k recognize 30 , 000 words time 1000 recognize \( guessed \) 1000 words time dragon 's technology also part following products \( info \) microsoft windows sound system \( voice pilot \) ibm voice navigator ii \( articulate systems macintosh \) \( voice products emergency medical workstation \) bat old phone number 504 336 current phone number 504 766 infogrip , inc 812 north blvd rouge , louisiana , u ward bond \( main contact \) david \( unix software \) 504 766 1029 shipping supports mac , ibm pc \( serial port native keyboard port version coming soon \) workstations supported , serial support unix x windows written pc mac getting real attention company system one hand sufficient type everything second hand redundancy increased speed price 495 \( dual set one complete keyboard \) 295 \( single \) \( cheaper prices offered macworld expo show special \) datahand 602 860 industrial innovations , inc north street scottsdale , arizona , u mark \( contact \) supports pc mac shipping beta big could take 3 months price 2000 unit \( 1 unit 2 pods \) \( new price ! \) hand pod four main fingers five switches forward , back , left , right , thumbs number switches despite appearances , key layout resembles qwerty , reported big deal adapt idea hands never move use keyboard whole pod base , act mouse \( see also detailed review , written cliff cal think com available via anonymous ftp soda berkeley edu \) comfort keyboard system 414 253 fax 414 253 health care keyboard company appleton ave falls , wisconsin u jeffrey \( vice president contact \) shipping supports pc \( mac \? \? \? \) planned future support ibm 122 key layout \( 3270 style , believe \) sun sparc decision data unisys uts 40 silicon graphics others supported later hardware design relatively easy company configure price 690 , including one system personality module idea one keyboard works everything purchase compatibility modules , new cord , possibly new , move one keyboard around among different machines 's three piece folding keyboard layout resembles standard 101 key keyboard , except sliced three sections section custom universal mount section independently adjusts infinite number positions allowing individual type natural posture three sections , \( keypad middle want \) section otherwise normal shaped \( e put three sections flat , looks like normal 101 key keyboard \) kinesis ergonomic keyboard 206 455 206 455 \( fax \) kinesis corporation pacific highway south , seattle , washington , u shirley \( vp marketing contact \) shipping supports pc mac sun sparc works price 690 volume discounts available 690 includes one foot pedal , one set adhesive wrist pads , program additional foot pedal accessories extra layout large blank space middle , even though keyboard size normal pc keyboard slightly smaller hand set keys , laid minimize finger travel thumb buttons handle many major functions \( enter , , etc \) remap keyboard firmware \( nice software wo n't allow \) foot also available , mapped key keyboard \( shift , control , whatever \) maltron \( 44 \) 081 398 \( united kingdom \) p c maltron limited 15 lane east surrey england stephen \( contacts \) u distributor jim barrett applied learning corp glen road wayne , pa phone 215 688 supports pc 's , 1640 , bbc b , bbc master , mac apparently also available price 375 pounds 735 shipped u \( basically , converted price shipping \) cost less bbc computers , number accessories , including carrying cases , switch boxes use normal keyboard maltron , articulated arm clamps table , training help learn type maltron also rent keyboard 10 pounds week taxes u price 120 month , 60 purchase want shipping \( choice colors black grey \) maltron four main products two handed keyboard , two one handed keyboards , keyboard designed handicapped people control mouth stick layout buttons thumbs , curved bring keys closer fingers separate keypad middle , inc p box 66 , va , u 703 961 \( pete sales \) 703 961 2001 \( larry langley president \) shipping supports pc , mac , ibm 3270 , sun sparc , 935 955 cost 495 shipping n't use conventional push keys soft rubber keys , rock forward backward \( key three states \) , make typing keys learning time estimated 2 3 hours , getting started , maybe two weeks get used currently , thumbs n't anything , although thumb trackball works company claims takes week work support new computer happy adapt keyboard computer , possible 516 474 , 800 638 141 mt sinai ave mt sinai , ny chris george \( president \) shipping price 199 supports pc mac x windows works keyboard mouse , fits one hand type via finger shift , control , etc thumb buttons mouse mode , moves mouse , mouse buttons fingers cabling leaves normal keyboard available , also applications work , windows works fine desqview trouble geoworks also trouble mouse works , keyboard n't braille 'n speak 301 879 engineering 3660 mill green rd street , md , u \( information provided doug martin martin nosc mil \) braille n speak uses several braille codes entering information grade , grade ii , computer braille basically , letters j combinations dots 1 , 2 , 4 , 5 letters k combinations j dot 3 added letters u , v , x , , z like e dots 3 6 added \( w unique louis braille n't w french alphabet \) tony ! ergonomic 415 969 tony hodges tony ! corporation 2332 thompson court mountain view , ca 94043 , u supports mac , pc , ibm 3270 , sun , dec shipping \? \? \? price 625 \( commit , 're line buy keyboard ships , 's cheaper , pay cheaper price 's expensive , still pay 625 \) tony ! allow separate positioning every key , allow keyboard personally customized thumb operated mouse also available vertical contact jeffrey spencer stephen albert , 619 454 0000 p box la jolla , ca , u supports info available , probably pc 's available summer , 1993 price 249 vertical keyboard split two halves , pointing straight user adjust width device , tilt section side view mirrors installed allow users see fingers keys mikey 301 933 1111 dr alan grant drive chevy chase , maryland , u shipping july , 1992 available one year supports pc , mac \( maybe \) price 200 \( estimated \) keyboard fixed angle , incorporates built mouse operated thumbs function keys arranged circle keyboard 's left wave \( 213 \) 310 644 6100 fax 310 644 international technology avenue , california , u robin hunter \( contact sales \) cost 99 95 15 set cables supports pc shipping also manufactures ordinary 101 key keyboard \( pc \) 84 key keyboard \( pc xt \) , make sure get right one one piece keyboard built wrist rest looks exactly like normal 101 key pc keyboard , two inches built wrist rest key switch feel reported greatly improved minimal motion computer access system 508 263 508 263 \( fax \) equal access computer technology dr michael 39 rd acton , , u price infogrip compatible hundred dollars one handed bat system 300 \( dos software \) hundred dollars shipping custom made , occupational therapist would make whatever make buy one supports pc , although infogrip compatible version might work mac one handed version , exactly one button per finger two handed version , get four buttons per finger , thumbs n't anything also get one handed versions three thumb buttons compatible infogrip bat basically , get way want also software tutorial help learn works pc dos , windows planning macintosh pc windows support work done unix version , yet half qwerty \( canada \) 416 749 corporation 178 boulevard , ontario , canada m9v e mail dgp toronto edu supports mac pc \( , windows \) demo anonymous ftp explorer dgp toronto edu pub half qwerty price 129 95 \( higher canada , quantity discounts available \) shipping thing purely software hardware software mirror keyboard hold space bar , allowing type one handed \( israel \) 972 4 fax \( 972 \) 3 keyboards ltd p box 31 , israel \( info jaffe katz bitnet \) one handed keyboard agenda \( u k \) \( 44 \) 276 692 fax \( 44 \) 276 691 826 systems plc house 2 albany court albany park surrey , united kingdom \( info carroll morgan carroll morgan prg oxford ac uk \) agenda personal desktop assistant \( \) style machine carry along input also hook pc , even program costs 200 pounds , 128k memory thanks go chris forsythe stanford edu providing basis information thanks numerous contributors doug martin martin nosc mil carroll morgan carroll morgan prg oxford ac uk jaffe katz bitnet wes hunter wesley hunter atlantaga ncr com paul schwartz cs washington edu h j kun nl dan sorenson viking iastate edu chris mit edu ravi ravi com leonard h tower jr tower ai mit edu dan jacobson dan jacobson att com jim jim oasis icl co uk cliff cal think com richard donkin richardd hoskyns co uk paul rubin telebit com david com bob scheifler rws expo lcs mit edu chris grant chris grant um cc umich edu scott mandell postoffice mail cornell edu everybody else 've probably managed forget opinions , unless otherwise mentioned , represent opinions organization vendor dan wallach one attractive features connection dwallach cs berkeley edu machine array blinking lights faces office 510 642 cabinet cm paris ref manual , v6 0 ,
dan wallach dwallach cs berkeley edu subject faq typing injuries \( 4 4 \) software monitoring tools monthly posting supersedes typing injury faq software cs berkeley edu organization university california , berkeley lines 333 expires 22 may 1993 01 24 03 gmt reply richard donkin richardd hoskyns co uk nntp posting host elmer fudd cs berkeley edu summary software tools help injured originator dwallach elmer fudd cs berkeley edu archive name typing injury faq software version 1 8 , 7th december 1992 faq actually maintained richard donkin richardd hoskyns co uk post , along faq stuff questions , want send mail richard , dan software tools help rsi file describes tools , primarily software , help prevent manage rsi version includes information diverse tools calendar programs digital watches please let know know tools , information opinions ones , update faq especially interested getting reviews products people evaluated using richard donkin internet mail richardd hoskyns co uk tel 44 71 814 \( direct \) fax 44 71 251 changes version added information , another typing management tool windows typing management tools aim help manage keyboard use , warning take break every often better ones also include advice exercises , posture workstation setup use sound hardware warn break , others use beeps screen messages often , rsi appears many years typing , pain delayed action short term frequently typing day little problem pain gets worse evening tools act early warning system listening warnings taking breaks exercises , n't wait body give serious painful warning , getting rsi tool service \( commercial software \) available bright star tel 1 \( 206 \) 451 platforms mac \( system 6 0 4 \) , windows description provides calendar , keyboard watch , email watch , system info warns take break \( configurable \) recommendations posture , exercises sound oriented , probably work best sound card \( pc \) microphone \( mac \) possible record messages warn break tool \( sound card software \) available media vision tel 1 \( 510 \) 226 platforms pc description sound card plug pc parallel port includes tool computer health break \( commercial software \) available escape ergonomics , inc 1111 w el camino real suite 109 mailstop 403 sunnyvale , ca tel 1 \( 408 \) 730 platforms dos description aimed preventing rsi , program warns take breaks configurable interval , based clock time , set number keystrokes whichever earlier gives 3 exercises time , randomly selected set 70 exercises apparently tuned type work data entry , word processing , information processing exercises illustrated include quite lot text exercise exactly exercise includes hypertext information rsi use learn rsi prevent information non rsi topics plugged hypertext viewer full glossary medical terms jargon included run dos box windows , warn take break therefore appear useful used windows cost 79 95 quantity discounts , site licenses comments keystroke counting approach looks good seems better measure activity causing problems measure clock time even typing time marketing stuff good includes summaries research papers , well lots arguments use get company pay rsi management tools tool \( commercial software \) available ran enterprises one park dr , , us tel 800 451 \( us \) platforms windows \( 3 0 3 1 \) , os 2 pm \( 1 3 2 0 \) dos description aimed preventing rsi eye strain , program warns take breaks configurable interval \( fixed times \) optionally displays descriptions pictures exercises pictures animated program beeps help exercises correct rate includes 19 stretches 4 visual training exercises , configure included many breaks last 3 7 minutes also includes online help workplace ergonomics quote literature windows program breaks day periodic sets stretches visual training exercises stretches work parts body , tension helping prevent repetitive strain injury visual training exercises improve peripheral vision help relieve eye strain together help become relaxed productive package includes book computers visual stress edward c , john , describes ergonomic setup computer workstation provides procedures exercises promote healthy efficient computer use cost 69 95 including shipping handling , quantity discounts resellers free demo \( 5 outside us \) comments copy , works advertised would say better rsi prevention rsi management , allow breaks periods less 30 minutes also , interrupts based clock time rather typing time , helpful unless use keyboard day worked ok windows 3 0 though occasionally crash uae sure also refused work space bar one pc , one window without window controls usable though , require sound hardware tool \( commercial software \) available visionary software p box portland , , us tel 1 \( 503 \) 246 6200 platforms mac , dos \( windows version underway \) description aimed preventing rsi warns take break dialog box sound includes list exercises breaks , information configuring workstation ergonomic manner price 59 quantity discounts site licenses dos product bought another company , apparently sure equivalent mac version mac version got good review desktop publisher magazine \( feb 1991 \) good marketing stuff useful 2 page summaries rsi problems solutions , references tool \( commercial software , free usable demo \) available lifetime software p box houston texas , us tel 800 947 2178 \( us \) fax 1 \( 713 \) 474 mail 727 compuserve com demo \( working program reduced functions \) available compuserve windows advanced forum , new uploads section , health fitness forum , issues work section anon ftp ftp cica indiana edu \( mirroring sites \) platforms windows \( 3 0 3 1 \) \( mac dos versions underway \) description aimed preventing rsi , program warns take breaks configurable interval \( fixed times \) displays descriptions pictures exercises pictures animated program help exercises correct rate quite exercises , configure ones included extent online help version 2 0 soon , mac dos versions based cost 29 95 support via compuserve internet , otherwise 39 95 site license 3 copies 20 00 \( note prices may gone v2 0 \) comments play , works ok user interface design much better 2 0 , though still bit unusual expensive tool around job also tool redistributable demo , get demo , post local bulletin boards , ftp servers bitnet servers ! include general info rsi ergonomics , ability step backward exercise sequence , good repeating helpful exercises tool typewatch \( freeware \) , version 3 8 \( october 1992 \) available email richardd hoskyns co uk anonymous ftp soda berkeley edu pub typing injury typewatch shar platforms unix \( tested sco , sunos , mach character x window mode \) description shell script runs background warns stop typing , based long continuously typing provide exercises , check really take break , tells start typing typewatch tells many minutes typing today , time warns , useful know much really type also logs information file analyse simply print warning message appears screen \( character mode \) , pop window \( x windows \) , zephyr message \( athena stuff \) tim freeman cs cmu edu put lot bug fixes , extra features support x , zephyr mach formally supported , email richardd hoskyns co uk \( sco , sunos , character mode \) cs cmu edu \( mach , x window mode , zephyr \) problems want give feedback tool various calendar batch queue programs available various sources platforms various description calendar reminder program warns upcoming appointment turned ad hoc rsi management tool , batch queue submission program lets submit program run specific time display message screen using windows example create calendar file , include filename win ini 's ' line get every startup windows suppose want breaks every 30 minutes , starting 9 press f7 \( special time \) enter appointment , enter 9 30 , hit enter , type text saying break press f5 set alarm entry , repeat next appointment using windows recorder , record keystrokes set breaks throughout day rec file put file ' line , , , single keypress , able set daily appointments rsi exercises method calendar programs example using batch jobs would submit simple job runs 9 30 warns take break depend lot operating system approaches ideal , good way forcing take break ca n't get hold suitable rsi management tool techie enough might want write version typewatch \( see \) operating system , using batch jobs whatever fits best tool digital watches count timers available various sources , e g casio bp 100 description many digital watches timers count number minutes usually reset easily number , either manually automatically basic tool , useful writing , reading , driving , anything away computer still cause aggravate rsi great advantage remind break whatever comments experience cutting lot typing led writing lot , still reading much ever , actually aggravated rsi right arm though left arm improved getting count timer watch useful occasions write lot day tried old fashioned hour glass type egg timer , much good give audible warning end time period ! keyboard tools enable change keyboard mapping type one different two handed layout one handed typing tools may help , careful use keep overall typing simply doubling hand use hand use typing , may therefore make matters worse tool hsh \( public domain \) available anonymous ftp soda berkeley edu pub typing injury hsh shar platforms unix \( n't know ones \) description allows one handed typing general keyboard works tty 's \( , use terminal xterm , x programs \) tool dvorak keyboard tools \( various \) available anonymous ftp soda berkeley edu pub typing injury c also built windows 3 x description dvorak keyboard apparently uses rational layout involves balanced hand use may help prevent rsi bit , also use rsi , since slow typing lot \) dan wallach one attractive features connection dwallach cs berkeley edu machine array blinking lights faces office 510 642 cabinet cm paris ref manual , v6 0 ,
lady uhunix uhcc hawaii edu \( lee lady \) subject science methodology \( homeopathy tradition \? \) summary science mere methodology organization university hawaii \( mathematics dept \) expires sat , 1 may 1993 10 00 00 gmt lines 85 article saltillo cs utexas edu turpin cs utexas edu \( russell turpin \) writes wrote , use phrasing think accurate , science investigation phenomena avoids methods reasoning known erroneous past foul ups article cc uq oz au bd psych psy uq oz au writes agree talking less fundamental aspects scientific method fact , n't see alternative , n't think fundamentals capable experimental investigation saying agreeing work people like \( 1970 \) , feyerabend \( 1981 \) \( 1972 \) methodology cannot subject kind experimental investigation , applied , critically methodologies compared , sometimes conflicting results produce kind critical appraisal comparison , together existing methodologies new fields study , drives evolution methodologies think usual , missing whole point , russell , willing even consider basic article faith , science merely matter methodology highest purpose science avoid making mistakes like saying important aspect business management accurate science methodology making mistakes , would poor thing indeed methodology darwin \? methodology einstein \? , matter , methodology pasteur \? earlier article , russell turpin writes none foregoing read meaning open door practitioners quackery psuedo science modern advocates homeopathy , chiropracty , traditional chinese medicine receive little respect , part , use methods reasoning kind research lee lady recommends shown terribly faulty \( imply treatments ineffective imply rely faulty methodology reasoning incapable discovering treatments effective \) first , think arguing straw man , n't think anyone arguing quackery , pseudo science , homeopathy , chiropracty , traditional chinese medicine accepted science , particular , think basic ideas homeopathy chiropracty seem extremely flaky us believe , however , things \( including flaky ideas \) deserving serious scientific attention fact true , stated , use currently fashionable methodology idea effective , science today would exist current science based past work scientists whose methodology , current standards , seriously flawed certainly true methodology improves , need examine results derived past using less perfect methodologies also true results obtained people today still rely early methodologies needs examined rigorous fashion qualified say nobody fails elaborate double blind studies capable knowing ass hole ground say ideas come outside scientific establishment could possibly worthy serious investigation truly marks one 's attitude , attitude compatible belief reason arguments behaviorists cognitivists , psychology seems less like science collection competing religious sects lady uhunix uhcc hawaii edu lady uhunix bitnet
dan wallach dwallach cs berkeley edu subject faq typing injuries \( 1 4 \) changes since last month monthly posting supersedes typing injury faq changes cs berkeley edu organization university california , berkeley lines 51 expires 22 may 1993 04 18 16 gmt reply dan wallach dwallach cs berkeley edu nntp posting host elmer fudd cs berkeley edu summary 's new happening dan 's faq ftp archive originator dwallach elmer fudd cs berkeley edu archive name typing injury faq changes version revision 1 3 date 1993 04 13 04 12 33 file details changes soda berkeley edu archive summarizes 's new various faq \( frequently asked questions \) documents posted monthly , along full faq various net groups various mailing lists either receive full faq every month , every third month , always get file , per month phew ! changes typing injuries faq soda berkeley edu archive , month new files soda berkeley edu archive tidbits caring wrists document rsi network 11 advice adverse mechanical tension details new apple keyboard info carpal tunnel syndrome \( carpal explained \) general info rsi \( rsi details , rsi physical \) marketing info vertical macweek article bat new details hooking normal pc keyboard rs 6000 updated pricing info datahand comfort half qwerty available anonymous ftp explorer dgp toronto edu new gif ! apple adjustable keyboard key tronic flexpro another picture kinesis vertical tony ! 'd like receive copy faq n't find place found document , either send e mail dwallach cs berkeley edu , anonymous ftp soda berkeley edu \( 128 32 149 19 \) look pub typing injury directory enjoy ! dan wallach one attractive features connection dwallach cs berkeley edu machine array blinking lights faces office 510 642 cabinet cm paris ref manual , v6 0 ,
dan wallach dwallach cs berkeley edu subject faq typing injuries \( 2 4 \) general info monthly posting supersedes typing injury faq general cs berkeley edu organization university california , berkeley lines 409 expires 22 may 1993 04 18 16 gmt reply dan wallach dwallach cs berkeley edu nntp posting host elmer fudd cs berkeley edu summary information get information originator dwallach elmer fudd cs berkeley edu archive name typing injury faq general version revision 4 28 date 1993 04 13 04 17 58 answers frequently asked questions typing injuries typing injury faq sources information people typing injuries , repetitive stress injuries , carpal tunnel syndrome , etc copyright 1992 , 1993 dan wallach dwallach cs berkeley edu many faqs , including one , available archive site pit manager mit edu \( alias rtfm mit edu \) 18 172 1 27 directory pub usenet news answers name faq archived appears archive name line top article faq archived typing injury faq general z 's mail server also e mail mail server pit manager mit edu word 'help' line body opinions , unless otherwise mentioned , represent opinions organization vendor i'm medical doctor , advice taken many grains salt current distribution sci med occupational , sci med , comp human factors , news , sci , comp answers , e mail c health ucs indiana edu , sorehand vm ucsf edu , l vtvm1 cc vt edu changes since previously distributed versions marked change bars right text , paragraph table contents 1 mailing lists , newsgroups , etc 2 soda berkeley edu archive 3 general info injuries 4 typing posture , ergonomics , prevention , treatment 5 requests info 6 references 1 mailing lists , newsgroups , etc usenet news comp human factors occasionally discussion alternative input devices comp risks occasional posting relevant injuries via computers sci med misc also tend relevant traffic 's brand new newsgroup , sci med occupational , specifically discuss things would recommended place post mailing lists rsi network available paper via e mail , publication covers issues relevant repetitive stress injuries sample issue subscription information , send stamped , self addressed business envelope caroline rose , 970 paradise way , palo alto ca e mail applelink apple com 2 donation , requested rsi network newsletters available via anonymous ftp soda berkeley edu \( see details \) c health sorehand ibm listserv things familiar listserv , 's quick info c health subscribe listserv ucs indiana edu post c health ucs indiana edu sorehand subscribe listserv vm ucsf edu post sorehand vm ucsf edu quick tutorial subscribing listserv mail listserv vm ucsf edu subject total listserv mania ! subscribe sorehand j random hacker info \? 's 'll get bunches mail back listserv , including list possible commands mail cool , huh \? 'll bitnet people think , next \? 2 soda berkeley edu archive 've started archive site info related typing injuries anonymous ftp soda berkeley edu pub typing injury \( 128 32 149 19 \) currently , 'll find informative files typing injury faq general information typing injuries keyboards products replace keyboard software software watch keyboard usage changes changes since last month 's edition \( new ! \) keyboard commentary dan 's opinions keyboard replacements advice adverse mechanical tension sit hqx document wrists ps postscript converted version carpal info info carpal tunnel syndrome carpal explained detailed information cts carpal surgery jama article cts surgery carpal tidbits tidbits article cts tendonitis info info tendonitis rsi biblio bibliography rsi related publications rsi network archive rsi network newsletter \( currently , containing issues 1 11 \) rsi details long detailed information rsi rsi physical study showing rsi n't psychological various product literature apple press press release apple adjustable keyboard apple tidbits extensive info apple 's adjustable bat info macweek review bat comfort marketing info comfort keyboard datahand review detailed opinions datahand datahand follow datahand desc description datahand 's appearance kinesis review one user 's personal opinions maltron marketing info various maltron products maltron review one user 's personal opinions vertical info marketing info vertical \( new ! \) programs \( exception exe , everything distributed source compiled unix system programs take advantage x window system , also \) hsh shar program one handed usage normal keyboards typewatch shar tells take break c turns qwerty keyboard dvorak shar keeps track long 've typing rest reminder sh yet another idle tar generates fake x keyboard events serial port use pc keyboard anything ! \( new improved version ! \) exe serial port keyboard ms windows \( note a2x tar rk tar export lcs mit edu contrib may current version soda \) a2x tar sophisticated x keyboard mouse spoofing program supports dragondictate \( note new version available \) rk tar reactive keyboard predicts 'll type next saves typing pictures \( gifs subdirectory \) gif picture good sitting posture \( document better \) gif fuzzy picture gif fuzzy picture somebody using apple gif apple adjustable keyboard bat gif infogrip bat comfort gif health care comfort keyboard gif fuzzy picture gif key layout schematic gif much better picture datahand flexpro gif key tronic flexpro keyboard gif kinesis ergonomic keyboard gif multiple views kinesis maltron 1 4 gif several pictures maltron products gif mikey gif schematic picture mikey tony gif tony ! ergonomic gif front view gif side view vertical gif vertical keyboard wave gif keyboard many files compressed \( z ending \) ca n't uncompress file locally , soda ask file , without z extension 're unable ftp soda , send e mail 'll see arrange 3 general info injuries first , foremost importance experience pain , absolutely need go see doctor soon possibly difference day two mean difference short recovery long , drawn ordeal go see doctor , garden variety doctor may necessarily familiar sort injury generally , hospital occupational therapy clinic offer specialists kinds problems wait , though go see doctor remainder information paraphrased , without permission , wonderful report new zealand 's department labour \( occupational safety health service \) occupational overuse syndrome treatment rehabilitation practitioner 's guide first , glossary \( , fancy names n't hands \) \( note 're likely hear terms doctors keyboard vendors \) rsi repetitive strain injury general term many kinds injuries occupational overuse syndrome synonym rsi cumulative trauma disorder another synonym rsi work related upper limb disorders yet another synonym rsi cts carpal tunnel syndrome \( see \) marked bending joint turning palm wrist extension bending wrist turning palm wrist bending wrist pinch grip grip used pencil deviation bending wrist towards little finger power grip grip used hammer radial deviation bending wrist toward thumb moving away body opening fingers wide , problems come two main types local conditions diffuse conditions local problems 'd expect specific muscles , tendons , tendon , nerves , etc inflamed otherwise hurt diffuse conditions , often mistaken local problems , involve muscle discomfort , pain , burning tingling identifiable areas tenderness muscles , although 're necessarily problem occupational overuse syndrome occur \? 's theory normally , muscles tendons get blood pass among muscle fibers tense muscle , restrict blood flow time 're exerting 50 full power , 're completely restricting blood flow without fresh blood , muscles use stored energy run , switch \( without oxygen \) metabolism , generates nasty products like acid , cause pain one muscle hurts , neighbors tense , perhaps relieve load makes sense normal sort injury , makes things worse repetitive motion tension means less blood flow , cycle continues another product lack blood flow tingling numbness nerves need blood anyway , 're typing much , 're never really giving change blood get back belongs , muscles never relax enough let blood stress , poor posture , poor ergonomics , make things worse specific injuries may heard \( note injuries come two flavors acute chronic acute injuries severely painful noticable chronic conditions less pronounced symptoms every bit real \) inflamation tendon sheath chronic occurs repetitive activity mild intermittent enough cause acute inflamation , enough exceed tendon sheath 's ability lubricate tendon result , tendon sheath , gets inflamed , 've got problem tendonitis inflammation tendon repeated tendon cause inflamation eventually , fibers tendon start separating , even break , leaving behind debris friction , swelling , pain sub acute tendonitis common , entails dull ache wrist forearm , tenderness , gets worse repetitive activity carpal tunnel syndrome nerves run wrist fingers get trapped inflamed muscles around symptoms include feeling pins needles , tingling , numbness , even loss sensation cts often confused diffuse condition adverse mechanical tension also known , nerves running arm become contracted possibly compressed result muscle spasms shoulders elsewhere often misdiagnosed associated one disorders largely reversible treated \( plexus stretches trigger point therapy \) others every part body , 's fancy name way injure , getting idea conditions occur careful many inexperienced doctors problems carpal tunnel syndrome , reality , may completely different problem always get second opinion somebody something drastic \( like surgery \) 4 typing posture , ergonomics , prevention , treatment important element prevention recovery reduce tension muscles tendons requires learning relax 're load stress , doubly important tune world breath deep regular relaxing become guiding principle work every three minutes take three second break every three minutes , take three second break really , every three minutes 's also helpful work comfortable surroundings , calm , relax ca n't sleep , really need focus rest , sleep , relaxation really big deal kinds treatments , course drugs reduce inflamation pain custom molded forcefully prevent bad posture surgery fix problems exercise help strengthen muscles regular stretching help prevent injury good posture good ergonomic workspace promote reduced tension ice hot cold contrast baths also reduce swelling doctor say 's best posture basic guidelines liked way written new zealand book i'm lifting almost verbatim appendix 10 dwallach let shoulders relax let swing free keep wrists straight pull chin look n't flop head forward keep hollow base spine try leaning back chair n't slump forward alter posture time time every 20 minutes , get bend spine backward set seat height , first feet flat floor undue pressure underside thighs near knees , thighs slope much , draw desk see height comfortable work short , may impossible remedy raise seat height prevent legs dangling using , adjust backrest height fit space backrest seat pan backrest support hollow back , adjust tilt give firm support area operate keyboard , able spend time leaning back , experiment chair taller backrest , available , diverge little text good chair makes big difference n't like chair , go find better one really want adjustments height , back angle , back height , maybe even seat tilt arm rests seem get way , although expensive chairs height adjustable arm rests also rotate way find good store play chairs pick one 's right san francisco bay area , highly recommend chairs name says keyboard drawers , wrist pads , keyboard replacements fair amount get right people , wrist pads seem work wonders however , good posture , n't resting wrists anything would prefer keyboard right drop arms side lift hands elbow , want keyboard hands 90 degrees course , want avoid , wrist extension , deviation costs wrist pads may may help get somebody else come look work sit , type , relax 's often easier somebody else notice shoulders hands argue normal , flat keyboard poorly designed number replacements available , market , today check accompanying typing injury faq keyboards much detail 5 requests info clearly , information incomplete typing injury archive incomplete 's always information 'd like submit something , please send mail , 'll gladly throw 'd like maintain list products vendors , would wonderful ! 'd love somebody make list chair desk vendors 'd love somebody make list doctors 'd love somebody edit sections , looking places 've obviously goofed 6 references completely information section , using wonderful guide produced new zealand occupational safety health service , service department labour special thanks authors , turner , blake , darby , , harding semi bibliographic reference occupational overuse syndrome treatment rehabilitation practitioner 's guide published occupational safety health service department labour wellington , new zealand first edition june 1992 isbn 0 477 3 price 9 95 \( new zealand 's , course \) thanks richard donkin richardd hoskyns co uk reviewing posting dan wallach one attractive features connection dwallach cs berkeley edu machine array blinking lights faces office 510 642 cabinet cm paris ref manual , v6 0 ,
lady uhunix uhcc hawaii edu \( lee lady \) subject science methodology summary merely avoiding mistakes n't get anywhere organization university hawaii \( mathematics dept \) expires mon , 10 may 1993 10 00 00 gmt lines 57 article 1993apr11 sbcs sunysb edu mhollowa ic sunysb edu \( michael holloway \) writes article ggb news hawaii edu lady uhunix uhcc hawaii edu \( lee lady \) writes would also like point arguments science sci med , sci psychology , etc cases people rejecting scientific argument evidence proof cases adequate scientific research done \( cases , quite bit evidence , n't format fit conceptions science \) indicates confusion proof process science making precisely one points wanted make fully agree big distinction process science end result end result science , one wants get results objectively verifiable nothing objective process science good empirical research done showed merit homeopathic remedies , would certainly valuable information would still mean homeopathy qualifies science disagree turpin order science , one must theoretical structure makes sense , mere collection empirically validated random hypotheses experiment empirical studies important part science , merely scientific research important part true scientific methodology scientific thinking without , one hypotheses worth testing \( , hypotheses leap look enough data simply come flash one day 're looking window least unless 've done lot really good thinking beforehand \) difference nobel prize level scientist mediocre scientist lie quality empirical methodology depends quality thinking really bothers many graduate students seem believe science merely conducting empirical studies bothers even many fields , certain parts psychology , seems thinking , mere studies testing ad hoc hypotheses i'm especially offended russell turpin 's repeated assertion science amounts nothing avoiding mistakes simply avoiding mistakes n't get anywhere arguments behaviorists cognitivists , psychology seems less like science collection competing religious sects lady uhunix uhcc hawaii edu lady uhunix bitnet
wright hi com \( david wright \) subject natural anti cancer aids remedies organization hitachi computer products , division lines 16 nntp posting host hi com article pitt uucp geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) writes article 1993apr6 cnsvax uwec edu mcelwre cnsvax uwec edu writes biggest reason cost medical care extremely high increasing natural methods treatment even diagnosis still systematically ignored suppressed money grubbing power mongering medical establishment 's half realize medical doctors replaced aliens \? yup way , planet , got , encounter prejudices foreign medical graduates \? david wright , hitachi computer products \( america \) , inc waltham , wright hi com opinions , necessarily hitachi 's , though opinions right thinking people
jchen wind bellcore com \( jason chen \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? nntp posting host wind bellcore com reply jchen ctt bellcore com organization bell communications research lines 31 article crhc uiuc edu , mary uicsl csl uiuc edu \( mary e allison \) writes two different tuesdays \( two weeks apart used day week sake \) ordered food local chinese take exact food except one days hold msg know time food ordered without msg one time reaction one time try tell n't scientific enough proven beyond shadow doubt reaction msg proof enough 'll know wish get sick eating food thank much could tell one msg , restaurants bother use \? taste difference , psychological reaction might play role fact , msg part natural substance everyone , mean everyone , consumes certain amount msg every day regular diet without synthesized msg additive chinese , many asians \( japanese , koreans , etc \) used msg flavor enhancer two thousand years believe knew make msg chemical processes \? extracted natural food sea food meat msg like sugar many people react jason chen
cdm pmafire inel gov \( dale cook \) subject meniere real remedy \? organization winco lines 19 article pitt uucp geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) writes recent movie , lorenzo 's oil , offers perfect example i'm talking n't seen , 's saw almost unique case history first , rare fatal disease accomplishment significant \( course , movie dramatic effect oil , n't even prevent progression , slows \) 's pretty good article march 6 , 1993 new scientist titled pouring cold water lorenzo 's oil article states research shown oil discernable effect progression disease patients begun patients \( less acute form disease \) improvement seen ability nerve conduct impulses patients yet begun , jury still dale cook
ls8139 albnyvms bitnet \( larry silverberg \) subject school info \? reply ls8139 albnyvms bitnet organization university albany , suny lines 21 hello , planning attending school next year narrowed choices pennsylvania college medicine , philadelphia , california college medicine san francisco anyone information oppinions two schools , please tell hard time deciding one attend , must make decision soon thank , larry live new york , 's saturday night tonight 's special guest lawrence silverberg state university new york albany aka ls8139 gemini albany edu
paulson tab00 larc nasa gov \( sharon paulson \) subject food related seizures \? organization nasa langley research center , hampton va , usa lines 45 distribution world nntp posting host cmb00 larc nasa gov posting group hopes finding someone network heard something similar going describe fourteen year old experienced seizure november 3 , 1992 6 45am eating kellog 's frosted flakes perfectly healthy , never experienced anything like , history seizures either side family tests \( eeg , mri , ekg \) came negative decision made nothing wait see happened well , going along fine morning , april 5 , bowl another kellog 's frosted kind cereal , fruit loops \( embarrassed admit even bought junk every \) pour bowl think oh , oh , kind junk eating seizure ten minutes later full blown seizures first exposure sugar coated cereal since last seizure mentioned ate first time possible reason seizure neurologist basically idea second episode , similar nature first , even scratching head eeg looks normal understand happen even person seizure waiting thinking would good get large group possible see anyone experience kind thing know members medical community sometimes loathe admit importance diet foods play general health well anyway , guess , worried sick , would appreciate ideas anyone sorry wanted really get across going thanks sharon paulson paulson larc nasa gov nasa langley research center bldg , mailstop 156 work \( 804 \) 864 2241 hampton , virginia 23681 home \( 804 \) 596 2362
rogers hi com \( andrew rogers \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? organization flames 'r us lines 13 nntp posting host hi com article 1993apr15 walter bellcore com jchen ctt bellcore com writes chinese , many asians \( japanese , koreans , etc \) used msg flavor enhancer two thousand years believe knew make msg chemical processes \? extracted natural food sea food meat add fuel flame war , read 20 years ago natural msg extracted sources mention cause reported 's nasty artificial msg extracted coal tar whatever causes chinese restaurant syndrome find pretty hard believe anyone else heard \? andrew
fulk cs rochester edu \( mark fulk \) subject science methodology \( homeopathy tradition \? \) organization university rochester article 1993apr15 ecsvax uncecs edu ecsvax uncecs edu \( charles l \) writes kekule 's infamous derivation idea benzene rings daydream snakes fire biting tails \? specific enough count \? certainly turns repeatedly basic phil sci texts example inventive component hypothesizing rather thoroughly demolished myth robert scott root bernstein see book , discovering ring structures benzene proposed kekule' , , time current models resemble kekule 's many predecessors kekule 's structure resemble modern model n't think extra scientific useful phrase discussion boundaries science , except proposed extra rational better phrase fact , quite number well known cases extra rational considerations driving science useful direction example , pasteur discovered acid mixture \( origin \) partly liked friend 's crank theory chemical action friend wrong , pasteur 's discovery stood prior investigator \( \) , looking phenomenon , missed crucial detail presumably lacked pasteur 's motivation find something distinguished acid tartaric \( say tartaric \) acid , pasteur discovered differential fermentation \( tartaric acid \) rational conviction , trying produce yeast lived l tartaric acid notebooks contained fantasies becoming newton mirror image life , never admitted publically perhaps best example discovery dna carries genes avery started work one students , ardent canadian , defended fred discoveries mice critics french , decided issue student avery told replicate work vitro , student eventually , whereupon avery convinced started research program , 15 years , produced famous discovery \( avery , macleod , , 1944 \) mark fulk university rochester computer science department fulk cs rochester edu
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject update \( help ! \) lyme 's \? reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 30 article 1993apr7 lamont ldgo columbia edu brenner ldgo columbia edu \( carl brenner \) writes see motive easy see physicians call everything lyme treat everything lot money involved keep bringing n't understand 's financially physician go ahead treat unless physician investment \( involved scheme \) home infusion company , financial gain doctor \? well , let put way , based experience general practitioner training infectious diseases , establishing links lyme community , treating patients come wondering lyme decided lyme , saying diseases ms probably , lyme , giving talks meetings users groups , feelings even delusional patients , etc gp go run mill 100k yr gp someone lots patients hospital getting expensive need monitoring office , making lots bread also getting many believe hope \( cure , control \) seeing name publications put support groups , etc definite temptation gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
ndallen r node hub org \( nigel allen \) subject water supplies vulnerable milwaukee type disease outbreak organization r node public access unix 1 416 249 5366 lines 182 press release natural resources defense council new data show 100 major u water supplies vulnerable milwaukee type disease outbreak national desk , environment writer contact erik olson sarah silver , 202 783 , natural resources defense council washington , april 14 internal epa data released today natural resources defense council reveals 100 large water systems serving cities boston san francisco filter remove disease carrying organisms leaving communities potentially vulnerable disease outbreak similar one affecting milwaukee epa list attached internal epa documents reveal safety water supplies many american cities threatened inadequate pollution controls , said erik olson , senior attorney water contamination n't problem bangladesh , 's also problem boston june 29 , 1993 , 100 large surface water systems epa 's list probably breaking law 1986 safe drinking water act requires surface water systems either filter water fully protect rivers lakes use pollution , olson continued systems moving towards eventually implementing systems expected miss law 's deadline olson pointed threat contamination already reality cities 1991 survey 66 u surface water systems water utility scientists found 87 percent raw water samples contained milwaukee organism , 81 percent contained similar called adding level concern , general accounting office study released today house health environment subcommittee chairman henry indicates serious deficiencies nation 's system conducting following surveys water systems new information raises huge warning sign millions americans longer simply turn taps assured water safe drink must immediately put place programs protect water sources contamination assured , equipment must installed protect public , olson noted time come many nation 's water utilities stop dragging feet aggressively protect water contamination consumers prepared pay modest costs needed assure water safe drink national non profit environmental advocacy organization systems epa indicates require adequately protect connecticut hydraulic co massachusetts boston h2o resource author \( mwra \) medford mwra medford water dept melrose mwra melrose water dept hilton mwra hilton water dept needham mwra needham water division mwra newton water dept mwra water dept quincy mwra quincy water dept mwra water dept framingham mwra framingham water div cambridge mwra cambridge water dept canton mwra canton water div dpw chelsea mwra chelsea water dept everett mwra everett water dept lexington mwra 201 bedford \( \) lynn mwra lynn water sewer co mwra water division revere mwra revere water dept mwra water dept mwra water dept mwra water dept mwra water dept mwra water dept brookline mwra brookline water dept wakefield mwra waltham mwra waltham water division watertown mwra watertown water division weston mwra weston water dept mwra district winchester mwra winchester water sewer mwra water dept boston mwra boston water sewer co hadley mwra south hadley fire dist arlington mwra arlington water dept belmont mwra belmont water dept clinton mwra clinton water dept water dept water dept northampton northampton water dept north adams north adams water dept amherst amherst water division dpw gardner gardner water dept worcester worcester dpw , water westboro westboro water dept water supply co water dept water co water dept maine camden water co bath bath water district new hampshire city salem salem water dept vermont barre city barre city water system city city water dept new york glens falls glens falls city hts water storage dist rochester rochester city wd rochester system rochester greece consolidated new york nyc sys \( \) new castle wd beacon beacon city joint water works pennsylvania bethlehem bethlehem public water sys greater water auth lock city lock water dept roaring creek water comp city city water dept wind gap blue mt consolidated apollo auth guilford water auth creek pg w reservoir pg w waters reservoir wilkes barre pg w creek wilkes barre pg w hill creek wilkes barre pg w plymouth relief city auth municipal water auth co mun auth virginia covington city covington south river sa dist south carolina greenville greenville water sys michigan sault ste marie sault ste marie marquette marquette montana butte butte water co city california san francisco city county san fran nevada reno idaho twin falls twin falls city washington aberdeen aberdeen water dept water dept 30 nigel allen , toronto , ontario , canada ndallen r node hub org
turpin cs utexas edu \( russell turpin \) subject science methodology \( homeopathy tradition \? \) organization cs dept , university texas austin lines 18 distribution inet nntp posting host im4u cs utexas edu article 1993apr15 ecsvax uncecs edu ecsvax uncecs edu \( charles l \) writes kekule 's infamous derivation idea benzene rings daydream snakes fire biting tails \? specific enough count \? certainly turns repeatedly basic phil sci texts example inventive component hypothesizing think question extra scientific \? long time since anyone proposed restrictions one comes ideas order considered legitimate hypotheses point , short , hypotheses speculation science may come wild flights fancy , , ancient traditions , modern quackery , anywhere else russell
janet ntmtv com \( janet \) subject exercise migraine nntp posting host pegasus organization northern telecom inc , mountain view , ca lines 24 talking migraine exercise \( i'm one ca n't fathom thought exercise migraine \) anyway , turning thread around , day played tennis lunch hour i'm tennis shape intense exercise got , dehydrated afterwards , noticed tingling sensation head 2 hours later , could feel migraine start \( continued drink water afternoon \) took cafergot , n't help pain started although n't intense usually night , pain subsided n't first time 've migraine occur exercise i'm wondering anyone else experience wonder triggers migraine situation \( heat buildup \? \? \) i'm giving tennis anything \( besides get shape n't play high noon \) prevent \? thanks , janet uucp ames , ! ntmtv ! janet northern telecom internet janet ntmtv com mtn view , ca
wsun jeeves ucsd edu \( fiberman \) subject erythromycin organization university california , san diego lines 4 nntp posting host jeeves ucsd edu erythromycin effective treating pneumonia \? fm
colby oahu cs ucla edu \( kenneth colby \) subject chronic sinus antibiotics keywords sinus , antibiotics , nntp posting host oahu cs ucla edu organization ucla , computer science department distribution na lines 9 nose culture shows , even better kill treating bacterial infections involves lot try fail infections often involve multiple organisms many resistant strains 60 influenza strains resistant works organisms may work keep experimenting ken colby
spp zabriskie berkeley edu \( steve pope \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? organization u c berkeley erl lines 16 distribution world nntp posting host zion berkeley edu article gap caltech edu carl sol1 gps caltech edu writes , instead using msg food additive , put msg capsules whatever , may reaction , becasue sensory response might necessary element creation msg reaction \( 'll bet bogus medical researchers never even thought obvious fact \) gee means placebo effect sorry , researchers know carl , placebo effect sensory response msg 's effect flavor responsible msg reaction steve
bhjelle carina unm edu \( \) subject new diet works great ! ! ! ! organization university new mexico , albuquerque lines 27 nntp posting host carina unm edu gordon banks lot keep going back obesity think us cycle one 's success depends large fluctuations cycle people cycle 5 pounds unfortunately , i'm one certainly describes situation perfectly constant dynamic tendency eat , appears totally , purely conscious desire put much weight get fat , diet exercise \( varying degrees success \) take extra weight usually cycle within 15 lb range , smaller larger cycles occur well i'm always afraid method stop working someday , usually seem able hold weight gain check one reason hard time accepting notion metabolic associated cycle dieting \( results long term weight gain \) cycle dieting least 20 years without seeing change think vigorous exercise program go long way toward keeping cycles smaller baseline weight low brian
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject eugenics reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 15 probably within 50 years , new type eugenics possible maybe even sooner mapping human genome start work manipulation genome using genetic engineering , able insert whatever genes want breeding , , etc ethical question , \? make race disease free , long lived , arnold schwartzenegger muscled , supermen \? even gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
ukc ac uk \( \) subject homeopathy respectable medical tradition \? reply ukc ac uk \( \) organization computing lab , university kent canterbury , uk lines 26 nntp posting host eagle ukc ac uk article pitt uucp geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) writes accepted \? scientists people every country waste time money quackery britain , worked , paid countries \? n't believe told \( person care lot worried going start putting health money homeopathy without really knowing getting reason posted first place homeopathy \) britain homeopathy available national health service 6000 gps use homeopathic practices true \? false \? \? important documented investigations homeopathic principles \? reading book homeopathy weekend turned section principles behind homeopathic medicine , two paragraphs informed homeopaths n't feel obliged provide sort explanation author stated pride , though sort virtue ! sceptical homeopathy \? narrow minded bigot , homeopathy really looks like witch anything else \?
microsoft com \( tom b carey \) subject science methodology \( homeopathy tradition \? \) organization microsoft corporation lines 31 sasghm theseus unx sas com \( gary merrill \) writes ted marvin dgbt doc ca \( ted \) writes gary extra scientific mean imply hypothesis generation , cases extremely closely tied state knowledge within scientific area meant scientific logic involved process inductive , deductive puzzled proposed distinction scientific logic inductive logic point n't clue mean extra scientific unless mean times someone seems come idea ca n't trace prior theories , concepts , knowledge , etc fairly common observation , grins 'd like see genuine examples ok , grins kekule hypothesized resonant structure benzene ring waking dream snake swallowing tail archimedes principle meditating bath neither case connection prior theories , concepts , etc stipulated intuitive leap beyond current way thinking , develop ideas subsequently proved predictive power \( e g , stood test experimental verification \) pardon tom
sasghm theseus unx sas com \( gary merrill \) subject science methodology \( homeopathy tradition \? \) originator sasghm theseus unx sas com distribution inet nntp posting host theseus unx sas com organization sas institute inc lines 43 article im4u cs utexas edu , turpin cs utexas edu \( russell turpin \) writes article 1993apr15 ecsvax uncecs edu ecsvax uncecs edu \( charles l \) writes kekule 's infamous derivation idea benzene rings daydream snakes fire biting tails \? specific enough count \? certainly turns repeatedly basic phil sci texts example inventive component hypothesizing think question extra scientific \? long time since anyone proposed restrictions one comes ideas order considered legitimate hypotheses point , short , hypotheses speculation science may come wild flights fancy , , ancient traditions , modern quackery , anywhere else russell yes , typically n't every wild flight fancy serves \( serve \) appropriate relation hypothesis somewhat interesting anyone provide example sort one come one kekule surely , must others apparently regarded extreme example non rational process science whereby successful hypothesis proposed non rational \? course ca n't hope \( currently least \) explain kekule daydream snakes fire biting tails surely n't daydream special one \? could something perceived analogy geometry snakes problems concerning geometry molecules \? reasoning extra scientific \? rather heart science \( 's notion , use models within across disciplines \) \? upon close examination , non rational mystical leap taking place , perhaps closer formal \( though often incomplete \) analogy model \? gary h merrill principal systems developer , c compiler development sas institute inc sas campus dr cary , nc 27513 \( 919 \) 677 8000 sasghm theseus unx sas com ! mcnc ! sas ! sasghm
mmatusev radford vak12ed edu \( melissa n matusevich \) subject emphysema question organization virginia 's public education network \( radford \) lines 13 thanks assistance 'll see try different brand patches , although 's tried two brands already two \? melissa mmatusev radford vak12ed edu time may find pleasing thing wanting logical , often true spock
turpin cs utexas edu \( russell turpin \) subject science methodology organization cs dept , university texas austin lines 67 distribution inet nntp posting host im4u cs utexas edu article news hawaii edu lady uhunix uhcc hawaii edu \( lee lady \) writes difference nobel prize level scientist mediocre scientist lie quality empirical methodology depends quality thinking really bothers many graduate students seem believe science merely conducting empirical studies i'm especially offended russell turpin 's repeated assertion science amounts nothing avoiding mistakes simply avoiding mistakes n't get anywhere think lee lady talking cross purposes , lady seems concerned contrast great science makes big advances knowledge mediocre science makes smaller steps thread , concerned difference science lee lady correct asserts difference einstein average post doc physicist quality thought difference einstein genius would great scientist whose great thoughts scientifically screwy \? \( would give examples n't like , choose \) say difference mediocre physicist mediocre proponent qi einstein mediocre disciplined work cumulative knowledge previous researchers went wrong mediocre proponent qi failed let approach second direction one asked review paper journal conference , many kinds criticism one make one kind criticism work wrong misinformed another kind criticism work , technically correct , either important interesting first difference one pointing second difference one lee lady seems discussing good empirical research done showed merit homeopathic remedies , would certainly valuable information would still mean homeopathy qualifies science disagree turpin often pointed homeopathy considered scientific , needed test theoretical claims , proposed remedies similarly , suspect traditional chinese medicine many remedies work lacks \( one example \) experiment tests presence qi order science , one must theoretical structure makes sense , mere collection empirically validated random hypotheses certainly theoretical structure makes sense goal areas yet , see nothing wrong forming testing smaller hypotheses let 's face cannot always wait einstein come along make everything clear us sometimes us einstein plug along make small amounts progress best russell
sasghm theseus unx sas com \( gary merrill \) subject science methodology \( homeopathy tradition \? \) originator sasghm theseus unx sas com nntp posting host theseus unx sas com organization sas institute inc lines 16 article 1993apr15 cs rochester edu , fulk cs rochester edu \( mark fulk \) writes n't think extra scientific useful phrase discussion boundaries science , except proposed extra rational better phrase fact , quite number well known cases extra rational considerations driving science useful direction yeah , problem holding extra rational examples exemplars , refutations well founded methodology , run smack directions lysenko extra rational cases curiosities guides methodology gary h merrill principal systems developer , c compiler development sas institute inc sas campus dr cary , nc 27513 \( 919 \) 677 8000 sasghm theseus unx sas com ! mcnc ! sas ! sasghm
georgec eng umd edu \( george b clark \) subject chronic sinus antibiotics organization university maryland lines 4 distribution na nntp posting host athens eng umd edu keywords sinus , antibiotics , also inside nose bacitracin using q tip bacitracin antibiotic bought otc ointment tube doctor listen radio says apply 30 days , taking antibiotics mouth
dougb comm mot com \( doug bank \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? reply dougb ecs comm mot com organization motorola land mobile products sector nntp posting host 145 1 146 35 lines 39 article 1993apr14 122647 16364 tms390 micro ti com , david tms390 micro ti com \( david thomas \) writes cymbal calpoly edu \( claire \) writes thing msg \( monosodium glutamate \) sensitivity \? saw ny times sunday scientists testified fda advisory panel complaints msg sensitivity superstition anybody experience contrary \? i'm old enough remember issue come least couple times since 1960s called chinese restaurant syndrome chinese always used far , 've seen dozen posts anecdotal evidence , facts suspect strong psychological effect work anyone results scientific study using double blind trials \? another anecdotal story picky eater never wanted try chinese food , however , finally tried order please girl seeing time never heard chinese restaurant syndrome group us went restaurant shared 6 different dishes n't taste great , decided n't bad went home went bed early woke 2 puked guts outs threw long \( i'm kidding \) pulled muscle tongue dry heaves everything one else got sick , i'm allergic anything know suffice say wont go chinese restaurant unless physically threatened smell food makes ill \( reaction \) dragged suffer beef broccoli without sauces , insist msg n't gotten sick yet doug bank private systems division dougb ecs comm mot com motorola communications sector dougb nwu edu schaumburg , illinois dougb casbah acns nwu edu 708 576 8207
vilok bnr ca \( vilok \) subject future methanol reply vilok bnr ca organization bell northern research , ottawa , canada lines 23 hope correct newsgroup scoop methanol future alternative fuel vehicles \? compare ethanol \? news health risks involved anybody know us clean air act impact use methanol year 1995 \? think methyl ether future industries use substitute conventional fuels company produces 12 world 's supply methanol anybody know \? please reply e mail read newsgroups thanks advance vilok osi protocols tomorrow vilok bnr ca bell northern research , ltd phone \( 613 \) 763 2273 p box 3511 , station c fax \( 613 \) 765 ottawa , ontario , k1y 4h7
sasghm theseus unx sas com \( gary merrill \) subject science methodology \( homeopathy tradition \? \) originator sasghm theseus unx sas com nntp posting host theseus unx sas com organization sas institute inc lines 15 article 1993apr15 microsoft com , microsoft com \( tom b carey \) writes ok , grins kekule hypothesized resonant structure benzene ring waking dream snake swallowing tail archimedes principle meditating bath well , certainly archimedes case description observing phenomena bath seems accurate meditating bath , , rather intense environment gary h merrill principal systems developer , c compiler development sas institute inc sas campus dr cary , nc 27513 \( 919 \) 677 8000 sasghm theseus unx sas com ! mcnc ! sas ! sasghm
jchen wind bellcore com \( jason chen \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? nntp posting host wind bellcore com reply jchen ctt bellcore com organization bell communications research lines 21 article 1993apr15 135941 16105 lmpsbbs comm mot com , dougb comm mot com \( doug bank \) writes woke 2 puked guts outs threw long \( i'm kidding \) pulled muscle tongue dry heaves everything one else got sick , i'm allergic anything know funny thing personaly stories reactions msg vary greatly said heart beat flush face claim heart skipped beats reacted headache , stomach ache eyes running nose , itchy skin rashes serious accusations include difficulty brain damage new one vomiting guess msg becomes number one suspect problem case might food poisoning heard things msg , may think must jason chen
mossman cea berkeley edu \( amy mossman \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? organization cea lines 31 distribution world nntp posting host mania cea berkeley edu article 1993apr15 135941 16105 lmpsbbs comm mot com , dougb comm mot com \( doug bank \) writes another anecdotal story picky eater never wanted try chinese food , however , finally tried order please girl seeing time never heard chinese restaurant syndrome group us went restaurant shared 6 different dishes n't taste great , decided n't bad went home went bed early woke 2 puked guts outs threw long \( i'm kidding \) pulled muscle tongue dry heaves everything one else got sick , i'm allergic anything know suffice say wont go chinese restaurant unless physically threatened smell food makes ill \( reaction \) dragged suffer beef broccoli without sauces , insist msg n't gotten sick yet similar reaction chinese food came completly different conclusion 've eaten chinese food ages never problems went chinese friends rest ordered lots stuff never seen thing remember meal first course , scallops served shell type sauce thought , well , 've scallops sick could coincidence night sat bathroom floor , sweating stomach hard way , decided would never touch another may allergic n't want take chance amy mossman
snichols adobe com \( sherri nichols \) subject exercise migraine article adobe 1993apr15 organization adobe systems incorporated lines 12 article 1993apr15 ntmtv janet ntmtv com \( janet \) writes n't first time 've migraine occur exercise i'm wondering anyone else experience wonder triggers migraine situation \( heat buildup \? \? \) i'm giving tennis anything \( besides get shape n't play high noon \) prevent \? 've gotten migraines exercise , though seems related exercising without eaten recently sherri nichols snichols adobe com
hrubin pop stat purdue edu \( herman rubin \) subject science methodology organization purdue university statistics department distribution inet lines 28 article im4u cs utexas edu turpin cs utexas edu \( russell turpin \) writes article news hawaii edu lady uhunix uhcc hawaii edu \( lee lady \) writes difference nobel prize level scientist mediocre scientist lie quality empirical methodology depends quality thinking lee lady correct asserts difference einstein average post doc physicist quality thought difference einstein genius would great scientist whose great thoughts scientifically screwy \? example probably wrong case one famous physicist telling another probably wrong recall quote ideas crazy , sure crazy enough right typical somewhat screwy herman rubin , dept statistics , purdue univ , west lafayette 1399 phone \( 317 \) 494 hrubin snap stat purdue edu \( internet , bitnet \) purdue , pur ee ! snap stat ! hrubin \( uucp \)
fulk cs rochester edu \( mark fulk \) subject science methodology \( homeopathy tradition \? \) organization university rochester article unx sas com sasghm theseus unx sas com \( gary merrill \) writes article 1993apr15 cs rochester edu , fulk cs rochester edu \( mark fulk \) writes n't think extra scientific useful phrase discussion boundaries science , except proposed extra rational better phrase fact , quite number well known cases extra rational considerations driving science useful direction yeah , problem holding extra rational examples exemplars , refutations well founded methodology , run smack directions lysenko extra rational cases curiosities guides methodology noted , distinction motivation method experimental result accepted unless described sufficient detail replicated , indeed reproduce result theoretical argument accepted unless presented sufficient detail followed , reasonable , , people agree force logic people try experiments , pursue arguments , sorts crazy reasons irrational motivations large part history science couple negative points make 1 \) theory qi could , conceivably , become accepted without direct verification existence qi example , quarks accepted part standard model physics , direct verification would needed would theory , based qi , predicted medical reality better alternatives central theoretical claim could lie forever beyond experiment , long sufficient body experimental data qi theory predicted better \( would n't hold breath waiting triumph qi , though n't think even coherent theory based , much less theory explains anything better modern biology hard imagine qi theory would predict way rather directly verifying existence qi \) 2 \) science historically progressed sort rational experiment data theory sequence experiments carried , interpreted , pre existing theoretical frameworks theoretical day determine experiments get done overall , huge messy affair personal jealousies , crazy motivations , petty hatreds , like determines experiments , computations , get done keeps going forward critical function science results n't count unless replicated whole system sort mechanism generate test generate part totally irrational , long test part works properly pasteur could believe whatever liked chemical activity crystals even agree acid crystals handed separate handedness , get two chemicals rotate polarized light opposite directions right rotating version indistinguishable tartaric acid pasteur 's irrational motivation led , important , result lysenko , creationists , etc fail usually even produced coherent theories predict much anything theories predict , contradicted experiment , concede point modify theories rather try suppress results \( lysenko \) try divert attention evidence think supports position \( creationists \) mark fulk university rochester computer science department fulk cs rochester edu
uabdpo dpo uab edu ! gila005 \( steve holland \) subject crohn 's disease organization uab gastroenterology lines 32 article 1993apr14 westminster ac uk , sun pcl ac uk \( david watters \) wrote dear , crohn 's disease sufferer i'm interested anyone knows current research going subject 've done investigation n't need spare details 've , , etc cure horizon \? medical profession reply would appreciate plain speak 'd prefer mailed direct n't always get chance read news thank advance dave best group keep informed crohn 's colitis foundation america know uk similar organization address 444 park avenue south 11th floor new york , ny 10016 usa lot information available number newsletters good luck steve
sue netcom com \( sue miller \) subject eugenics organization netcom online communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 7 article pitt uucp geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) writes \? make race disease free , long lived , arnold schwartzenegger muscled , supermen \? even sure , long 'll make one
lehr austin ibm com \( ted lehr \) subject science methodology \( homeopathy tradition \? \) originator lehr jan austin ibm com distribution inet organization ibm austin lines 47 gary merrill writes every wild flight fancy serves \( serve \) appropriate relation hypothesis somewhat interesting anyone provide example sort one come one kekule surely , must others apparently regarded extreme example non rational process science whereby successful hypothesis proposed non rational \? indeed , extreme example came nowhere connection kekule saw problem fortunate extraordinary , example , often receive conjure solutions \( hypotheses solutions \) everyday problems moments appear occupied activities quite removed algorithms new software feature come trample meadow occasional runs alternative \( better \) ways instruct rear sons arrive weed garden 'll swear thinking ideas come ideas stuff great discoveries , course , connecting particular problems fraught occasional fits rationality surely n't daydream kekule special one \? could something perceived analogy geometry snakes problems concerning geometry molecules \? yes lucky colorful , vivid image , alas , never figure returning worms loose soil garden brought , count objects instead merely count mind regarding 2 year old 's arithmetic skills upon close examination , non rational mystical leap taking place , perhaps closer formal \( though often incomplete \) analogy model \? latter worms around dirt son regards , ted ted lehr thoughts , opinions questions future systems technology group , aws ibm internet lehr futserv austin ibm com austin , tx
lady uhunix uhcc hawaii edu \( lee lady \) subject science methodology \( homeopathy tradition \? \) summary asking wrong question fundamental error keywords science errors turpin organization university hawaii \( mathematics dept \) expires mon , 10 may 1993 10 00 00 gmt lines 80 avoiding mistakes certainly highly desirable however also widely acknowledged creativity ordinary life , carried beyond certain point indicative psychological disorder extreme case , becomes paralyzed possible mistakes might make unable even leave house science , want discover much truth world possible also want much certainty possible discoveries usually trade two search scope search certainty 18th century mathematicians demanded total rigor newton leibniz would probably calculus today , neither two could explain calculus way really made sense , since lacked concept limit fact , lack rigorous foundation , made number errors use calculus hundred years later able give solid grounding ideas newton leibniz nonetheless , newton leibniz undoubtedly science mathematics gained great deal application important ideas lost mistakes made article 1993apr14 kestrel edu king reasoning com \( dick king \) writes somebody writes doubt einstein used formal methodology also proposed numerous experiments performed would distinguish universe special relativity holds one einstein played rules , demand hypotheses put exists specific experiment could disprove rules according many post sci med sci psychology according posters 's supported carefully designed controlled studies 's science taken extreme , believe attitude empirical studies everything ideas nothing results complete science one thing , insistence elaborate expensive methodology results sort scientific trade , outside establishment lacking institutional corporate support chance obtain hearing \( n't least believe intention scientific methodology nonetheless , one results \) although institutional science certainly produced many wonderful results , think foolish arrogance scientists believe one outside establishment using less perfect empirical methodology ever come anything worthwhile furthermore , big bucks approach science promotes think one significant errors science choosing investigate questions readily handled currently fashionable methodology \( one readily get institutional corporate sponsorship \) instead directing attention questions seem fundamental significance instance , certain questions cannot easily investigated statistical methods relevant factors quantitative \( one could argue case almost questions many areas psychology opinion , perusal many papers resulting attempt psychologists force questions statistical framework gives lie russell turpin 's assertion current scientific methods avoid known errors \) think asking wrong question probably fundamental error science \( ignoring potentially valuable ideas one others \) think scientific journals full many studies done empirical methods worthless wrong question asked first place arguments behaviorists cognitivists , psychology seems less like science collection competing religious sects lady uhunix uhcc hawaii edu lady uhunix bitnet
hq ileaf com \( john \) subject exercise migraine nntp posting host organization interleaf , inc lines 49 article 1993apr15 ntmtv janet ntmtv com \( janet \) writes day played tennis lunch hour i'm tennis shape intense exercise got , dehydrated afterwards , noticed tingling sensation head 2 hours later , could feel migraine start \( continued drink water afternoon \) took cafergot , n't help pain started although n't intense usually night , pain subsided n't first time 've migraine occur exercise i'm wondering anyone else experience wonder triggers migraine situation \( heat buildup \? \? \) i'm giving tennis anything \( besides get shape n't play high noon \) prevent \? hi janet , sounds exactly like mine circumstance , onset symptoms , cafergot , duration fact , people know migraines , none similar wide variation people respect causes headaches , generally n't bother sharing 've learned mine , since seem alike , observations n't think 's heat , per se \( 've winter summer \) could conceivably figure , though try playing rather shape n't seem help much , either 've identified four factors make difference \( listed descending order importance \) 1 \) heavy exercise 2 \) sleep deprivation 3 \) fasting \( e g , skipped breakfast \) 4 \) physical trauma \( e g , head \) heavy exercise preceded post adolescent migraines , n't get migraines every heavy exercise session one factors must present \( usually 2 \) since discovered , 've nearly migraine free every two three years get cocky \( 's long , maybe n't get anymore \) stop careful hope helpful john
kxgst1 pitt edu \( kenneth gilbert \) subject erythromycin organization university pittsburgh lines 14 article sdcc12 ucsd edu wsun jeeves ucsd edu \( fiberman \) writes erythromycin effective treating pneumonia \? fm effective , fact drug choice cases community acquired kenneth gilbert university pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit , programmer !
kxgst1 pitt edu \( kenneth gilbert \) subject emphysema question organization university pittsburgh lines 14 article 1993apr15 radford vak12ed edu mmatusev radford vak12ed edu \( melissa n matusevich \) writes thanks assistance 'll see try different brand patches , although 's tried two brands already two \? brands come top head , may fourth well kenneth gilbert university pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit , programmer !
dmp fig citib com \( donna \) subject arthritis info needed please ! originator dmp eagle organization citibank lines 34 friend mine diagnosed arthritis , result trauma sustained car accident several years ago control arthritis part illness \( non anti inflammatory \) worked pretty well three years n't helping much friend taking \( another \) n't helping control pain past two months friend also started taking along medicines , effects combined drugs n't supposed realized several months result pain , friend problems sleeping staying one position long ordeal another major contributor pain tendonitis developed \( left thumb hand numbness base palm bottom feet shoulders outer thighs \) tendonitis quite painful yet friend 's doctor recommended form treatment relieve latest twist doctor dropped anti recommending prednisone hope prednisone relieve pain tendonitis friend 41 year old male feels like 's 80 \( words , mine \) anyone aware new treatments arthritis , alternative courses action , support groups literature , would extremely grateful could e mail anyone interested , 'll post summary newsgroup thanks advance , donna dmp fig citib com
rind enterprise bih harvard edu \( david rind \) subject erythromycin organization beth israel hospital , harvard medical school , boston mass , usa lines 11 nntp posting host enterprise bih harvard edu article sdcc12 ucsd edu wsun jeeves ucsd edu \( fiberman \) writes erythromycin effective treating pneumonia \? depends cause pneumonia treating bacterial pneumonia young otherwise healthy non smokers , erythromycin usually considered antibiotic choice , since covers two common pathogens david rind rind enterprise bih harvard edu
slyx0 cc usu edu subject msg sensitivity superstition \? organization utah state university lines 37 article 1993apr15 walter bellcore com , jchen wind bellcore com \( jason chen \) writes article 1993apr15 135941 16105 lmpsbbs comm mot com , dougb comm mot com \( doug bank \) writes woke 2 puked guts outs threw long \( i'm kidding \) pulled muscle tongue dry heaves everything one else got sick , i'm allergic anything know funny thing personaly stories reactions msg vary greatly said heart beat flush face claim heart skipped beats reacted headache , stomach ache eyes running nose , itchy skin rashes serious accusations include difficulty brain damage new one vomiting guess msg becomes number one suspect problem case might food poisoning heard things msg , may think must surprise surprise , different people react differently different things one slightly subject case point brother got stung bee know allergic bee stings , reaction severe localized swelling , anaphylactic shock could convince doctors , however , 's written little rule book would surprised least find people bad reactions msg , including headaches , even vomiting stuff bad poison needs banned , people need aware bad effect people lone wolf happy dream dreams , ed philips pay price see come true slyx0 cc usu edu unknown
milsh nmr z mgh harvard edu \( alex milshteyn \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? organization mass general hospital cipr lines 35 article crdnns crd ge com crd ge com writes would n't call double blind , one local restaurant 's soup provokes impressive migraine headache wife one take nothing quote chinese restaurant syndrome \( crs \) transient syndrome , associated , due ingestion monosodium glutamate , used liberally seasoning chinese food characterized head , , jaw , neck shoulders , end quote source 's illustrated medical dictionary , 27th edition , 1988 , w b , p known long ago brain produces uses msg naturally , doses served chinese places said , might add , mho , msg enhance flavor miss go chinese places , order food without msg places prerequisite service would , capable understanding , want good luck alexander milshteyn milsh cipr server mgh harvard edu cipr , mgh boston , \( 617 \) 724 vox \( 617 \) 726 fax
neal cmptrc lonestar org \( neal howard \) subject science methodology \( homeopathy tradition \? \) organization computrac inc , richardson tx lines 20 article 1993apr15 ecsvax uncecs edu ecsvax uncecs edu \( charles l \) writes kekule 's infamous derivation idea benzene rings daydream snakes fire biting tails \? specific enough count \? certainly turns repeatedly basic phil sci texts example inventive component hypothesizing sometimes wonder kekule 's dream n't wee bit influenced solvent \) heh heh neal howard '91 xlh 1200 dod 686 computrac , inc \( richardson , tx \) doh 0000001200 355o33 neal cmptrc lonestar org std disclaimer opinions mine , computrac 's let us learn dream , gentlemen , perhaps shall learn truth august kekule' \( 1890 \)
unl edu \( dale webb \) subject back machine update organization university nebraska lincoln lines 15 distribution na nntp posting host unlinfo unl edu back machine one since january found panacea back pain , think helped somewhat mainly acts stretch muscles back prevent spasms associated pain taking less pain medication previously folks back technologies reluctant honor return policy extended warranty period rather allow return machine , first month , thrilled encouraged continue use , less like said , ca n't say cure , keeps stretched less pain dale webb , dvm , phd 97 body water veterinary diagnostic center 3 keeps drowning university nebraska , lincoln
ncr com \( robert \( \) \) subject centrifuge organization middletown n j u x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 distribution usa lines 16 mr blue \( car access digex com \) wrote could somebody explain centrifuge used \? vaguely something spins test tubes around really fast cant remember want \? purely recreational get bored sitting rack time bob smile lie , learn bar 'll tell lawyer 's office opinions , would cost bit
caf omen uucp \( chuck forsberg wa7kgx \) subject new diet works great ! ! ! ! organization omen technology inc , portland rain forest lines 32 article lynx unm edu bhjelle carina unm edu \( \) writes gordon banks lot keep going back obesity think us cycle one 's success depends large fluctuations cycle people cycle 5 pounds unfortunately , i'm one certainly describes situation perfectly constant dynamic tendency eat , appears totally , purely conscious desire put much weight get fat , diet exercise \( varying degrees success \) take extra weight usually cycle within 15 lb range , smaller larger cycles occur well i'm always afraid method stop working someday , usually seem able hold weight gain check one reason hard time accepting notion metabolic associated cycle dieting \( results long term weight gain \) cycle dieting least 20 years without seeing change mentioned 101 , experience weight rebound fact n't n't prove n't happen others chuck forsberg wa7kgx ! tektronix ! reed ! omen ! caf author ymodem , zmodem , professional yam , zcomm , dsz omen technology inc high reliability software 17505 v nw sauvie rd portland 97231 503 621 3406
mentor cc purdue edu \( lost boy \) subject men get yeast infections \? organization purdue university computing center distribution na lines 25 article netcom com noring netcom com \( jon noring \) writes article tammy vandenboom launchpad unc edu \( tammy vandenboom \) writes 's potentially stupid question possibly wrong news group , men get yeast infections \? spread \? kind symptoms \? similar women 's \? yeast infection husband \( natural paranoid good day \) sure 's gonna catch keeps asking 's like i'm sure symptoms would answer yes i'm sure others sci med expand jon know personal experience men get yeast infections get rather nasty ones time time , mostly area base penis 're nowhere near dangerous many women , goddamn hurt summertime ! even , sweat get really best thing keep control keep weight keep cool shorts 60 degree weather , kind thing course occasional sun lost boy
black sybase com \( chris black \) subject breast disease organization sybase , inc lines 18 mom diagnosed breast disease big relief , lump could cancer doctor says go caffeine chocolate 6 months , well stopping estrogen 's taking related reasons 's thrilled , think especially gave cigarettes soon wo n't pleasures left ! , thought 'd heard breasts common really health risk accurate \? , told make various sacrifices treat something 's big deal \? thanks information chris black sybase com note mailer tends subject lines
naomi rock concert net \( naomi \) subject endometriosis organization concert connect public access unix lines 15 anyone give information regarding endometriosis \? heard 's common disease among women anyone provide names specialist surgeon north carolina research triangle park area \( raleigh durham chapel hill \) familiar condition , would really appreciate thanks naomi naomi l network services specialist mcnc center communications concert network
nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \( david nye \) subject migraines scans organization university wisconsin eau claire lines 16 reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) get away without ever ordering imaging patient obviously benign headache syndrome , 'd like hear magic certainly ca n't always avoid \( unless want rude , suppose \) made decision back getting studies like ct mri n't think indicated patient wo n't accept explanation think study would waste time money , suggest second opinion david nye \( nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \) midelfort clinic , eau claire wi patently absurd whoever wishes become philosopher must learn frightened absurdities bertrand russell
jim zisfein factory com \( jim zisfein \) subject klonopin pregnancy distribution world organization invention factory 's bbs new york city , ny 212 274 8298v 32bis reply jim zisfein factory com \( jim zisfein \) lines 17 \( iastate edu \( \) \( woman know tapering klonopin believe one \( taking minimal dose right , half tablet \( day also pregnant question known cases \( klonopin similar drug caused harmful effects fetus \? \( cases mother took klonopin similar substance \( normal baby information appreciated wants get feel \( sort risk taking first month pregnancy klonopin , according pdr \( physician 's desk reference \) , proven isolated case reports , impossible establish cause effect relationships overwhelming majority women take klonopin pregnant normal babies slmr 2 1 e mail jim zisfein factory com \( jim zisfein \)
mizzou1 missouri edu \( matthew q de la \) subject infant immune development question nntp posting host mizzou1 missouri edu organization university missouri lines 10 animal science student , know number animals transfer thier young thier milk fact , calf must sufficient amount \( early milk \) within 12 hours effectively develop immune system , since first \( less \) 24 hours intestines open ig passage question , apply human infants degree \? thanks time responding , matthew mizzou1 missouri edu
carl sol1 gps caltech edu \( carl j lydick \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? organization hst wide field planetary camera lines 28 distribution world reply carl sol1 gps caltech edu nntp posting host sol1 gps caltech edu article 1993apr15 cc usu edu , slyx0 cc usu edu writes surprise surprise , different people react differently different things one slightly subject case point brother got stung bee know allergic bee stings , reaction severe localized swelling , anaphylactic shock could convince doctors , however , 's written little rule book course , bee venom n't single chemical could brother reacting different component one causes anaphylactic shock people similarly , chinese food n't msg lot ingredients , someone eats something lots ingredients n't normally consume , one happens msg , immediately conclude negative reaction msg \? would surprised least find people bad reactions msg , including headaches , even vomiting 'd surprised reactions n't due ingredients carl j lydick internet carl sol1 gps caltech edu nsi hepnet sol1 carl disclaimer hey , understand vaxen vms 's get paid understanding astronomy purely amateur level \( \) unless i'm saying directly related vax vms , n't hold organization responsible related vax vms , try hold responsible , organization nothing
texx ossi com \( robert texx woodworth \) subject men get yeast infections \? organization open systems solutions inc lines 16 distribution na nntp posting host nym ossi com noring netcom com \( jon noring \) writes article tammy vandenboom launchpad unc edu \( tammy vandenboom \) writes 's potentially stupid question possibly wrong news group , men get yeast infections \? spread \? kind symptoms \? similar women 's \? yeast infection husband \( natural paranoid good day \) sure 's gonna catch keeps asking 's like i'm sure symptoms would answer yes i'm sure others sci med expand recently someone posted account unfortunately posted alt gross details emphasized instead th e actual scientific facts
carson u washington edu \( douglas \) subject ra treatment question organization university washington lines 24 nntp posting host carson u washington edu carson u washington edu \( julia \) writes i'm assuming mean arthritis \( ra \) 've never heard cold treatment mentioned ca n't imagine would work , since us rh ra seem problems cold weather warm weather would interested hear ! z z , obviously talking research assistants favor high protein , low fat diet , barely adequate salary fixed time schedule , four hours sleep night , continuous infusion , unpredictable praise mixed randomly anxiety provoking , lowered , unrealistic promises rapid publication , every three months dinner consisting nothing ale free actually , mine san diego , indeed problems seattle cold weather warm doug u washington edu
dfield flute calpoly edu \( infospunj \( dan field \) \) subject ca n't wear contacts rk prk \? keywords radial , keratotomy , contact , lenses organization california polytechnic state university , san luis obispo lines 28 love faq comment contact lenses option remaining correction rk possibly prk interresting \? anyone know sure whether applies prk well \? also , possible get correction prk involvement 5 corneal depth , rk done depth 95 \? difference \? thought exception laser cutting tool prk must understanding differences faq , vision considered less clear surgery glasses alone completly attributable intentional slight , compensated necessary glasses \( contacts , worn afterall ! \) important know case , however , consequence surgery would often interfere clear vision first thing came mind , glasses could n't help would help daniel r field , aka infospunj i'm lowly dfield oboe calpoly edu biochemistry , biotechnology i'm california polytechnic state u medical totem pole
urz unibas ch subject left side pains organization university basel , switzerland lines 21 hello everybody , write kind desperate six weeks , 've suffering pains left head side , left leg sometimes left arm made many tests \( e g computer , negative , lyme , negative , blood correct range \) , 're k , healthy matter fact , feeling also neurologist 's , considered healthy blood tests shown little much \( 17 5 , common range 14 17 , unfortunately know units \) could sided pains result also possible block neck muscles \? fever , feeling entirely sick , neither entirely healthy please answer direct email urz unibas ch thanks every hint
nigel dataman demon co uk \( nigel ballard \) subject distribution world organization infamy inc reply nigel dataman demon co uk x newsreader simple news 1 90 \( ka9q dis 1 21 \) lines 34 hello , anybody know \? \( e someone kill bye one \? \) people died , usually fatal treatable gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon hi i'm suffering present although 's shown chronic rare tissue disorder , thankfully life threatening thing happen non treated sufferer specialists bombarding e c \( \) four months day , 's totally done away enlarged lymph glands , somethings happening good ! cheers nigel nigel ballard int nigel dataman demon co uk mexican food cis radio guinness tap united kingdom amazing ! two wires tall skinny women two penguins walking along iceberg first penguin turns second penguin says looks like wearing second penguin turns first penguin says , maybe
ken sugra uucp \( kenneth ng \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? organization private computer , totowa , nj lines 15 article cunews superior carleton ca \( steven \) writes 1993apr13 news cs brandeis edu binah cc brandeis edu \( susan \( w \) \) writes think scientists biased towards food industry something article long \? would anyone interested posting \? told msg used 's right labs use kill neurons mice rats vitamin \( think vitamin \) strong enough amounts kill key words dosage exposure mechanism kenneth ng please reply ken blue njit edu might elaborate simulation running little device sitting someone 's table j l picard st tng
backon vms huji ac il subject pointer info \( long shot \) distribution world organization hebrew university jerusalem lines 49 article zonker splinter coe northeastern edu , regis donovan zonker silver lcs mit edu writes something long shot hell net full people strange knowledge i'm looking suggestions could causing health problems one relatives one cousins health problems much life around age 10 problems 's early mid going blind eyes producing enough \( \) moisture 's going mass eye ear doctors clue actual cause apparently tried completely blind one eye massively 's syndrome known induce vaginal tissue well induce primary cirrhosis otherwise abdominal swelling could due complication 's known produce \( enlarged spleen \) definitely see since n't mention skin disorder , , joint pain 'd probably rule josh backon vms huji ac il also , may may related , changes abdomen stomach \( i'm sure stomach organ stomach teh area body \) guess step 're going take next whole battery tests check internal besides eyes net source large amounts bizarre knowledge , i'm going ask anyone ever heard anything like \? suggestions things ask \( since much knowledge state comes second third hand \) \? thanks regis zonker silver lcs mit edu
sasghm theseus unx sas com \( gary merrill \) subject science methodology \( homeopathy tradition \? \) originator sasghm theseus unx sas com nntp posting host theseus unx sas com organization sas institute inc lines 43 article 1993apr15 cs rochester edu , fulk cs rochester edu \( mark fulk \) writes 2 \) science historically progressed sort rational experiment data theory sequence experiments carried , interpreted , pre existing theoretical frameworks theoretical day determine experiments get done overall , huge messy affair personal jealousies , crazy motivations , petty hatreds , like determines experiments , computations , get done keeps going forward critical function science results n't count unless replicated whole system sort mechanism generate test generate part totally irrational , long test part works properly think agree much however paragraphs seem repeat uncritically standard feyerabend view progress rationality science since 've addressed issues newsgroup distant past , wo n't go wrong observation explicitly gives impression \( may fact hold view \) common \( perhaps even correct \) approach scientist follow sit around flights fancy basis jealousies petty hatreds least implicitly advances position sciences goes forward \( clear means given context occurs \) generating completely non rational even random way plethora hypotheses theories via critical function science \( though critical function less subject non rational forces mystery experimental design , hypotheses creation , theory construction subject jealousies petty hatreds , must equally true application critical function concerning replication leads one \( ala feyerabend \) anything goes view \) true , generation part totally irrational typically anecdotes concerning instances hypothesis seems resulted way dream one 's political views simply generalize well actual history science gary h merrill principal systems developer , c compiler development sas institute inc sas campus dr cary , nc 27513 \( 919 \) 677 8000 sasghm theseus unx sas com ! mcnc ! sas ! sasghm
donald mackie donald mackie med umich edu subject seeking advice experience back problem organization um anesthesiology lines 20 distribution world nntp posting host 141 214 86 38 x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d9 x xxdate fri , 16 apr 93 15 41 32 gmt article cbnewsk cb att com janet cooper , cbnewsk cb att com writes mother friend mine experiencing disabling back pain mris , ct scans , doctors visits presented 2 alternatives \( 1 \) live pain \( 2 \) undergo somewhat risky operation may leave paralyzed also since symptoms pain would seek advice good , multi disciplinary pain clinic distressing think people told live pain many options pain management \( rather treating mri findings \) available good pain clinic accept lady 's problem pain set finding ways mackie opinions um anesthesiology disavow
donald mackie donald mackie med umich edu subject options back surgery protruding disc l4 l5 organization um anesthesiology lines 33 distribution world nntp posting host 141 214 86 38 x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d9 x xxdate fri , 16 apr 93 15 37 39 gmt subject options back surgery protruding disc l4 l5 alex miller , amiller almaden ibm com date 13 apr 93 18 30 42 gmt article 2241 coyote uucp alex miller , amiller almaden ibm com writes two weeks around acute pain low back right leg , sent get mri revealed protruding \( \) disc l4 l5 went neurosurgeon prescribed \( anti \) bed rest several days 's nearly week overall feel slightly worse take three times day deal daily activities like preparing food help get sleep 'll see neurosurgeon tomorrow course 'll asking whether rest helpful surgery next step non surgical options goal resume full activity , including competitive cycling add condition , opinion , result wear tear 've chronic low back pain years managed n't say whether symptoms pain numbness , weakness bladder problems , example , would suggest need surgery pain symptom might well find reputable , multi disciplinary pain clinic area chronic low back pain generally n't well surgery , acute chronic pain \( symptom \) n't fare much better e correlation mri findings symptoms controversial mackie opinions um disavow
cbnewsd cb att com \( ray c \) subject looking doctor organization distribution usa keywords san francisco lines 9 kind half watching street stories last night one segments doctor f provides service investigating treatment various diseases i'm pretty sure name dr mark \( sp \? \) close anyone else watch \? 'd like get correct name address phone number possible thanks
gsfc nasa gov \( david \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? organization code 916 , nasa goddard space flight center lines 19 article 1993apr15 nmr z mgh harvard edu milsh nmr z mgh harvard edu \( alex milshteyn \) writes known long ago brain produces uses msg naturally , doses served chinese places said , might add , mho , msg enhance flavor miss go chinese places , order food without msg places wanted point food , particularly soups , prepared big batch , restaurant wo n't able take msg sometimes pretty hard find case alexander milshteyn milsh cipr server mgh harvard edu cipr , mgh boston , \( 617 \) 724 vox \( 617 \) 726 fax david b gsfc nasa gov
debbie csd4 csd uwm edu \( debbie forest \) subject men get yeast infections \? organization computing services division , university wisconsin milwaukee lines 18 distribution na nntp posting host 129 89 7 4 article 1993apr14 galileo cc rochester edu ltd uhura cc rochester edu \( \) writes well folks , currently yeast infection male best bet \( least husband 's \) treat cure infection intercourse must , use condom also , consider forms sexual release \( ie \) cured though ca n't imagine wanting intercourse full blown yeast infection \) chances transmitted male quite low , especially 's circumcised happen one point getting recurrent yeast infections dr suspected boyfriend might gotten prescription interesting day medication \( week \) insert medication , intercourse resulting action would help medicine spread around better , would simultaneously treat
cislabs pitt edu \( stephen brener \) subject intensive japanese pitt keywords san francisco distribution usa organization university pittsburgh lines 112 article cbnewsd cb att com cbnewsd cb att com \( ray c \) writes kind half watching street stories last night one segments doctor f provides service investigating treatment various diseases i'm pretty sure name dr mark \( sp \? \) close anyone else watch \? 'd like get correct name address phone number possible thanks intensive japanese university pittsburgh summer university pittsburgh offering two intensive japanese language courses summer courses , intensive elementary japanese intensive intermediate japanese , ten week , ten credit courses equivalent one full year japanese language study begin june 7 end august 13 courses meet five days per week , five hours per day flat rate tuition charge 1600 per course fellowships available science engineering students contact steven brener , program manager japanese science technology management program , university pittsburgh number address interested individuals encouraged apply , limited university students new program announcement japanese science technology management program japanese science technology management program \( jstmp \) new program jointly developed university carnegie mellon university students professionals engineering scientific encouraged apply classes june 1993 january 1994 program objectives program intends promote technology transfer japan united states also designed let scientists , engineers , managers experience japanese proceed technological development extended internships japanese research facilities laboratories provide participants opportunity develop long term professional relationships japanese counterparts program design fulfill objectives program , participants required develop advanced language capability deep understanding japan culture , jstmp consists three major components 1 training japanese language several japanese language courses offered , including intensive courses designed language preparation scientists engineers relatively short time 2 education japanese business social culture particular placed deep understanding cultural educational basis japanese management approaches manufacturing information technology courses available variety departments throughout universities including anthropology , sociology , history , political science moreover , conducted , field trip japanese manufacturing research facilities united states scheduled 3 internship study mission japan upon completion language cultural training pitt cmu , participants opportunity go japan observe , participate management technology internships japan generally run one year however , shorter ones possible fellowships covering tuition language culture courses , well living expenses available information application materials contact steven brener susie brown jstmp carnegie mellon university , university pittsburgh pittsburgh , pa 15213 3890 forbes telephone \( 412 \) 268 pittsburgh , pa fax \( 412 \) 268 telephone \( 412 \) 648 fax \( 412 \) 648 interested individuals , companies institutions respond phone mail please inquire via e mail please note directed grads professionals , however , advanced considered , funding us citizens permanent residents us steve brener
anello fnal gov \( anthony anello \) subject hypoglycemia organization fermi national accelerator laboratory , batavia il lines 14 distribution world nntp posting host fnal gov keywords 40 dangerous \? anyone tell 40 diagnosed dangerous , e indicates possible problem \? one dr says , \( specialty \) says first negligent another blood test done also , good diet \( worked \) hypo \? tia anthony anello fermilab batavia , illinois
wcsbeau alfred carleton ca \( opirg \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? organization carleton university , ottawa , canada lines 43 article 1993apr14 122647 16364 tms390 micro ti com david tms390 micro ti com \( david thomas \) writes article delphi gsfc nasa gov , packer delphi gsfc nasa gov \( charles packer \) writes thing msg \( monosodium glutamate \) sensitivity \? saw ny times sunday scientists testified fda advisory panel complaints msg sensitivity superstition anybody experience contrary \? i'm old enough remember issue come least couple times since 1960s called chinese restaurant syndrome chinese always used far , 've seen dozen posts anecdotal evidence , facts suspect strong psychological effect work anyone results scientific study using double blind trials \? check , 20 posts maybe missed amidst flurry responses \? yet , use newsgroup hampered people restricting posts matters substantial knowledge cites msg , look almost anything john w olney , toxicologist studied effects msg brain development undisputed literature msg excitotoxic food additive , major constituent , glutamate essentially neurotransmitter mammalian brain \( humans included \) much diet , system gets thrown glutamate aspartate , also excitotoxin necessary small amounts , freely available many foods , amounts added industry far amounts would normally encountered ny single food eating lots junk food , packaged soups , diet soft drinks , possible jack blood levels high , anyone sensitivity compounds suffer numerous real effects read olney 's review paper prog brain res , 1988 , check sources impecable dispute dianne murray wcsbeau ccs carleton ca
fulk cs rochester edu \( mark fulk \) subject science methodology \( homeopathy tradition \? \) organization university rochester article unx sas com sasghm theseus unx sas com \( gary merrill \) writes article 1993apr15 cs rochester edu , fulk cs rochester edu \( mark fulk \) writes wrong observation explicitly gives impression \( may fact hold view \) common \( perhaps even correct \) approach scientist follow sit around flights fancy basis jealousies petty hatreds flights fancy , irrational approaches , common crucial thing sit around fantasies n't use unless make experiments 've known lot scientists whose fantasies lead creative work usually wo n't admit loud fantasy , prior consumption beers \( simple example warren jelinek noticed extremely heavy band dna gel human alu fragments got excited , hoping 'd seen essential part control mechanism eukaryotic genes fantasy led sequence samples band carry binding assays result well conserved , 400 bp , sequence occurs 500 , 000 times human genome unfortunately warren 's fantasy , turns present many copies copies back genome hand , characteristics much necessity cellular reverse recognized standard method recognizing human dna created species different sets fortunately , warren used eat dinner g fridays time \) least implicitly advances position sciences goes forward \( clear means given context occurs \) generating completely non rational even random way plethora hypotheses theories via critical function science i'm sure 's random known rational mechanism generating rich set interesting hypotheses really working unknown area , unlikely much sense might might true circumstances , best thing follow whatever instincts wrong , find soon enough least , find something try experiments random , prior conceptions mind , probably get nowhere \( though critical function less subject non rational forces mystery unfortunately , critical function sometimes become hostage non rational forces get varieties pathological science lysenko , mirsky 's opposition dna gene , cold fusion , forth experimental design , hypotheses creation , theory construction subject jealousies petty hatreds , must equally true application critical function concerning replication leads one \( ala feyerabend \) anything goes view \) n't agree follows fact , exactly point disagree feyerabend important part culture science one keeps one 's jealousies process failures aplenty , , whole , things work another point couple senses phrase 'd say less rational part experimental choice , design alexander fleming \( proc royal soc , 1922 \) chose look mucus strange reasons \( phage previously found locust diarrhea fleming probably thought bottom , nose , hell , 's worth try \) method looking phage well designed detect anything phage like fact , found true , generation part totally irrational typically anecdotes concerning instances hypothesis seems resulted way dream one 's political views simply generalize well actual history science clear mean rational vs irrational perhaps give examples surprising experiments tried perfectly rational reasons , interesting new theories first advanced logical grounds main examples think modern high energy physics typical science whole mark fulk university rochester computer science department fulk cs rochester edu
cab col hp com \( chris best \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? organization service lines 20 nntp posting host hpctdkz col hp com jason chen writes new one vomiting guess msg becomes number one suspect problem case might food poisoning heard things msg , may think must yeah , might , read part quoted somehow left part ate thing changes things bit , eh \? complain people blame msg automatically , since 's unknown therefore must cause equally \( \) unreasonable defend , automatically assuming can't culprit pepper makes sneeze n't affect way , fine n't tell i'm wrong saying people n't condemning chinese food , mr chen one \( optional \) ingredients try take personally
francis ircam fr \( joseph francis \) subject ca n't wear contacts rk prk \? keywords radial , keratotomy , contact , lenses organization ircam , paris \( france \) lines 45 article 1993apr16 zeus calpoly edu dfield flute calpoly edu \( infospunj \( dan field \) \) writes love faq comment contact lenses option remaining correction rk possibly prk interresting \? anyone know sure whether applies prk well \? 've prk would suggest asking doctor contacts mine said yes contacts think scars rk would preclude contacts also , possible get correction prk involvement 5 corneal depth , rk done depth 95 \? difference \? thought exception laser cutting tool prk must understanding differences rk makes radial cuts around circumference cornea , 8 think , change curvature cornea stress prk \( burns \) away thin layer front cornea making optical axis eye shorter laser n't cut prk , rk , eye cut faq , vision considered less clear surgery glasses alone completly attributable intentional slight , compensated necessary glasses \( contacts , worn afterall ! \) important know case , however , consequence surgery would often interfere clear vision first thing came mind , glasses could n't help would help find vision clear things , less clear others , night notice definite night darkness look automobile , though something spend inordinate amounts time ordinary things , vision , particular fully operating peripheral vision , clearer glasses , contacts le fresh 'n' clean , speaking way want live today american american , bit , even
fulk cs rochester edu \( mark fulk \) subject science methodology \( homeopathy tradition \? \) organization university rochester distribution inet article unx sas com sasghm theseus unx sas com \( gary merrill \) writes course ca n't hope \( currently least \) explain kekule daydream snakes fire biting tails surely n't daydream special one \? could something perceived analogy geometry snakes problems concerning geometry molecules \? reasoning extra scientific \? rather heart science \( 's notion , use models within across disciplines \) \? upon close examination , non rational mystical leap taking place , perhaps closer formal \( though often incomplete \) analogy model \? feel need repeat kekule 's dream rather bad example much anything read root bernstein 's book history benzene ring mark fulk university rochester computer science department fulk cs rochester edu
turner reed edu \( havok \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? article reed 1993apr16 organization reed college , portland , lines 35 article gap caltech edu carl sol1 gps caltech edu writes article 1993apr15 cc usu edu , slyx0 cc usu edu writes surprise surprise , different people react differently different things one slightly subject case point brother got stung bee know allergic bee stings , reaction severe localized swelling , anaphylactic shock could convince doctors , however , 's written little rule book course , bee venom n't single chemical could brother reacting different component one causes anaphylactic shock people hmmm last time got stung bee experienced reaction first poster 's brother went doctor see worry fact foot 3 times 's normal size \( ! ! ! ow ! \) basically said n't time , bee sting allergy something tended get , something time got progressively worse generally next time could time go anaphylactic shock admittedly many years ago young since make sure n't get stung also carry bee sting kit , n't n't scientific proof , would lead believe 's different reaction , different degree reaction allergies work way people various reactions sort like diabetes , people get monitoring diet , others monitor diet use insulin sometimes others watch diet like hawk use insulin regularly think msg probably similar people allergic reactions people allergic fermented things ca n't use sauce chinese using centuries n't necessarily mean 's safe everyone turner reed edu
dehp calvin edu \( phil de haan \) subject chronic sinus antibiotics keywords sinus , antibiotics , nntp posting host organization calvin college distribution na lines 18 article mojo eng umd edu georgec eng umd edu \( george b clark \) writes also inside nose bacitracin using q tip bacitracin antibiotic bought otc ointment tube doctor listen radio says apply 30 days , taking antibiotics mouth new doctor gave prescription today something called septra ds said may cause gi problems sensitive stomach begin anybody ever taken antibiotic good \? suggestions avoiding upset stomach \? tips \? phil de haan \( dod \) yes 1974 honda 's nature executive america rely people something used donald , executive director , major league baseball players association
mary uicsl csl uiuc edu \( mary e allison \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? organization center reliable high performance computing , university illinois urbana champaign lines 66 distribution world nntp posting host uicsl csl uiuc edu carl sol1 gps caltech edu \( carl j lydick \) writes course , bee venom n't single chemical could brother reacting different component one causes anaphylactic shock people similarly , chinese food n't msg lot ingredients , someone eats something lots ingredients n't normally consume , one happens msg , immediately conclude negative reaction msg \? read memos ! ! ! ! said personally people order exact food two different times restaurant people ordered food tell time msg food time food one time reaction one time reaction came time msg food difference restaurant ingredients ! ! ! , someone eats something lots ingredients n't normally consume , one happens msg , immediately conclude negative reaction msg \? eat lots chinese food love chinese food 've learned following get food one restaurants use msg prepare food without msg order food restaurant hold msg \( never get soup unless 's restaurant cooks without msg \) get reaction ! ! ! ! okay understand ! ! ! ! get reaction msg get reaction msg 're trouble understand , please tell words understand 'll look dictionary great secret successful marriage treat disasters incidents none incidents disasters harold nicholson mary allison \( mary uicsl csl uiuc edu \) urbana , illinois
jchen wind bellcore com \( jason chen \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? nntp posting host wind bellcore com reply jchen ctt bellcore com organization bell communications research lines 61 article hp col col hp com , cab col hp com \( chris best \) writes jason chen writes new one vomiting guess msg becomes number one suspect problem case might food poisoning heard things msg , may think must yeah , might , read part quoted somehow left part ate thing changes things bit , eh \? food poisoning one many possible causes yes , even people share food complain people blame msg automatically , since 's unknown therefore must cause equally \( \) unreasonable defend , automatically assuming can't culprit boy , computer people know 1s 0s , much logic \) said msg culprit argued enough reasonable doubt convict msg want convict msg , show evidence , quilty suspicion pepper makes sneeze n't affect way , fine n't tell i'm wrong saying nobody forcing change believe certainly n't want see somebody preach ban pepper makes sneeze exactly anti msg people n't condemning chinese food , mr chen one \( optional \) ingredients try take personally look , people last chen n't necessarily chinese restaurant interested enjoy chinese food exploiting last name discredit issue hitting belt interested truth let give recent fda hearing ``there evidence orally consumed glutamate effect brain , '' said dr richard massachusetts institute technology anecdotal experiences individuals , science , '' said ``i n't think glutamate made sick '' dr robert kenney george washington university conducted double blind test 1980 showing 35 people reacted msg also similar reaction thought msg actually although many contradicting personal stories told group , might due causes anti msg emotion runs high , blame anything everything purpose present balance view issue , although probably 20 1 jason chen
king reasoning com \( dick king \) subject ca n't wear contacts rk prk \? keywords radial , keratotomy , contact , lenses article kestrel 1993apr16 organization reasoning systems , inc , palo alto , ca lines 22 nntp posting host drums reasoning com article 1993apr16 zeus calpoly edu dfield flute calpoly edu \( infospunj \( dan field \) \) writes love faq comment contact lenses option remaining correction rk possibly prk interresting \? anyone know sure whether applies prk well \? also , possible get correction prk involvement 5 corneal depth , rk done depth 95 \? difference \? myopia cornea curved much bulge center prk laser removes small amount material center rk surgeon cuts near edge heal , scarring cornea entirely different mechanisms , action different place dk
carl sol1 gps caltech edu \( carl j lydick \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? organization hst wide field planetary camera lines 28 distribution world reply carl sol1 gps caltech edu nntp posting host sol1 gps caltech edu article hp col col hp com , cab col hp com \( chris best \) writes jason chen writes new one vomiting guess msg becomes number one suspect problem case might food poisoning heard things msg , may think must yeah , might , read part quoted somehow left part ate thing changes things bit , eh \? perhaps , leads believe msg ingredient food made ill \? people n't condemning chinese food , mr chen one \( optional \) ingredients try take personally 're condemning one particular ingredient without evidence 's ingredient reacted carl j lydick internet carl sol1 gps caltech edu nsi hepnet sol1 carl disclaimer hey , understand vaxen vms 's get paid understanding astronomy purely amateur level \( \) unless i'm saying directly related vax vms , n't hold organization responsible related vax vms , try hold responsible , organization nothing
subject prozac eis calstate edu \( \) organization calif state univ electronic information services lines 3 anyone help find information drug prozac \? writing report inventors , eli lilly co , product need much help get thanks lot ,
hsc usc edu \( \) subject need advice doctor patient relationship problem organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 64 nntp posting host hsc usc edu need advice situation occurred upset saw doctor problem recurring pain suggested medication course treatment , told need call 7 days begin medication may monitor effectiveness , well general health exactly asked , made call \( reaching secretary \) explained following doctor 's request , worried pain episodes becoming frequent medication seem effective doctor called back , first words , whatever want , 'd better make quick i'm busy n't time chit chat ! told simply following instructions call 7th day status , feeling worse asked perhaps better time us talk time responded , spit time good time \( said raised voice \) started feel upset tried explain quickly going condition interfered choice words kind said well , never mind said 'll talk various colleagues medications 'll call time doctor called evening said n't express well , confused wanted point pretty upset told \( amazingly polite voice considering angry felt \) earlier manner hurt feelings told n't time rap patients thought wanted told assume calling rap insulting , said following orders responded implication felt making interested learning patients say condition status gave apology sorry mistakenly thought insulting trying insult knowledgeable pain , n't lot time deal told call next day instructions deal pain medication still upset yet called questions \( 1 \) continue doctor manage care \? \( 2 \) since pain , realize may cause perhaps reacting overly sensitive \? doctor refers colleague knows type pain , still wants status condition afraid call
paj uk co gec mrc \( paul johnson \) subject sore throat reply paj uk co gec mrc \( paul johnson \) organization gec marconi research centre , great baddow , uk lines 29 article sdcc12 ucsd edu wsun jeeves ucsd edu \( fiberman \) writes sore throat almost week look mirror aid flash light , see white plaques back throat \( sides \) went health center throat culture taken said throat could viral infection cause white plaques sides throat \? first , doctor know sounds like \( lit swollen \) feel jaw hinge swelling side find , 've couple times past doctor prescribed weeks course penicillin cleared case associated fever , viral infection \( point view \) resembled flu kept coming back year blood test conclusion , see doctor \( done already \) paul paul johnson \( paj gec mrc co uk \) tel 44 245 73331 ext 3245 ideas others like gec marconi research 0 02 reputable idealist responsible opinions
rind enterprise bih harvard edu \( david rind \) subject centrifuge organization beth israel hospital , harvard medical school , boston mass , usa lines 18 distribution usa nntp posting host enterprise bih harvard edu article hrs ncr com ncr com \( robert \( \) \) writes could somebody explain centrifuge used \? vaguely something spins test tubes around really fast cant remember want \? purely recreational get bored sitting rack time , wrong purpose preserve substances tubes longer creating relativistic speeds thus time course , slowing subjective time test tubes get less bored , probably thinking david rind rind enterprise bih harvard edu
mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) subject need advice doctor patient relationship problem nntp posting host aisun3 ai uga edu organization ai programs , university georgia , athens lines 9 sounds though heart 's right place , adept expressing received meant profound apology apologies delivered overworked shy people often come like michael covington , associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu university georgia phone 706 542 0358 athens , georgia 30602 7415 u amateur radio n4tmi
contractor ebay sun com \( jim jones \) subject post fever rashes get 'em every time organization sun microsystems , inc mt view , ca lines 18 distribution world reply contractor ebay sun com \( jim jones \) nntp posting host contractor ebay sun com subject line says every time run fever , get amazing rosy rash arms fortunately , n't itch rash always comes day fever breaks matter illness cold , flu , whatever started happening four years ago moved current town , although n't know anything anything severity persistance rash seems vary fever severe long lasting fever brings long lasting rash mild fever seems bring rashes go away faster anybody know might causing \? 's embarassment , 'd curious know 's going carrying kind fever resistant bug goes wild fever knocks competition \? jim jones
pan panda stanford edu \( doug pan \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? reply mossman cea berkeley edu 's message 15 apr 1993 19 41 40 gmt organization interviews group , stanford university 1993apr13 news cs brandeis edu 1993apr14 zeus calpoly edu 1993apr14 122647 16364 tms390 micro ti com 1993apr15 135941 16105 lmpsbbs comm mot com 5k6 agate berkeley edu lines 26 article 5k6 agate berkeley edu mossman cea berkeley edu \( amy mossman \) writes similar reaction chinese food came completly different conclusion 've eaten chinese food ages never problems went chinese friends rest ordered lots stuff never seen thing remember meal first course , scallops served shell type sauce thought , well , 've scallops sick could coincidence night sat bathroom floor , sweating stomach hard way , decided would never touch another may allergic n't want take chance n't react scallops , clam juice served \( american \) bars n't know whether juice homemade cans following first encounter chinese restaurant syndrome ten years ago , hour ton soup collapsed chair face feeling puffed , scalp tingling , feet weak stand symptoms lasted 20 minutes determined find cause first reaction , went back chinese ordered dish thing happened quick look inside kitchen revealed nothing ordinary 've also mild attack soup thai
sasghm theseus unx sas com \( gary merrill \) subject science methodology \( homeopathy tradition \? \) originator sasghm theseus unx sas com nntp posting host theseus unx sas com organization sas institute inc lines 55 article 1993apr16 cs rochester edu , fulk cs rochester edu \( mark fulk \) writes flights fancy , irrational approaches , common crucial thing sit around fantasies n't use unless make experiments 've known lot scientists whose fantasies lead creative work usually wo n't admit loud fantasy , prior consumption beers \( simple example warren jelinek noticed extremely heavy band dna gel human alu fragments got excited , hoping 'd seen essential part control mechanism eukaryotic genes fantasy led sequence samples band carry binding assays result well conserved , 400 bp , sequence characterize flight fancy fantasy \? unfamiliar scientific context , appears obvious speculation \( lack better neutral word \) least significant part consequence knowledge acceptance current theory coupled observations would appear something quite rational going attempted fit observation theory \( tailor theory cover observation \) seem like example would normally call flight fancy fantasy clear mean rational vs irrational perhaps give examples surprising experiments tried perfectly rational reasons , interesting new theories first advanced logical grounds main examples think modern high energy physics typical science whole well , think someone else thread first use word \( also , extra scientific , etc \) prepared give general account rationality terms examples , danger beginning quibble surprising experiment , counts surprising , etc may said logical grounds point quite frequently \( perhaps even frequently \) roots new theory traced previously existing theories \( even previously rejected hypotheses theory domain \) would offer rather well known examples toricelli 's de dome experiment done sake sea air hypothesis theory \( resulting experimental test \) surprising \? well , given prior explanations phenomena involved certainly must counted theory constructed \( experiment designed \) perfectly rational grounds \? well , pretty successful well know theory fluids analogy fluids toricelli explicit novelty thinking air fluid \( quite novelty time \) theory interesting \? yes new \? well , one could argue merely extension existing theory new domain , think begs certain questions debate like gary h merrill principal systems developer , c compiler development sas institute inc sas campus dr cary , nc 27513 \( 919 \) 677 8000 sasghm theseus unx sas com ! mcnc ! sas ! sasghm
subject experts penicillin look ! eis calstate edu \( noah \) organization calif state univ electronic information services lines 8 name noah student san leandro high project physics class would like info discovery penicillin , \( sir alexander fleming \) , helps people many incurable also effects allergic info greatly appreciated noah
jfare 53iss6 waterloo ncr com \( jim fare \) subject endometriosis reply jfare 53iss6 waterloo ncr com \( jim fare \) distribution world organization imaging systems division , ncr corp , waterloo , ont , canada lines 26 article 1993apr16 rock concert net naomi rock concert net \( naomi \) writes anyone give information regarding endometriosis \? heard 's common disease among women anyone provide names naomi endometriosis cells would normally lining exist outside sometimes causes problems , often n't generally need remove pockets endometriosis unless causing problems one lady know endometriosis ovary caused great deal pain another lady know abdominal wall removed american fertility society information probably maintain list physicians parts continent deal endometriosis reach american fertility society 11th ave south suite 200 birmingham , alabama 2800 \( 205 \) 933 j f
superior carleton ca \( steven \) subject prozac organization carleton university lines 14 eis calstate edu eis calstate edu \( \) writes anyone help find information drug prozac \? writing report inventors , eli lilly co , product need much help get thanks lot , pdr cps good places starts medline search lots interesting debates going \( remember prozac suicidal behaviour \? \) steve z
gte com \( mark \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? eagle lerc nasa gov agate berkeley edu reply gte com organization gte laboratories inc lines 17 reply spp zabriskie berkeley edu 's message 14 apr 93 21 03 56 gmt article agate berkeley edu spp zabriskie berkeley edu \( steve pope \) writes 's worse thing double blind study effects msg , virtue fact msg changes taste food characteristic way detectable subject cannot duplicated placebo common ! easily disguise flavor msg putting capsule , study becomes double blind msg capsules control capsules \( containing exactly contents minus msg \) mark , gte laboratories inc , 40 sylvan rd waltham , gte com , \( 617 \) 466 , fax \( 617 \) 890
tong ohsu edu \( gong tong \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? article ohsu 1993apr16 organization oregon health sciences university lines 48 article 1993apr16 447 cunews carleton ca wcsbeau alfred carleton ca \( opirg \) writes article 1993apr14 122647 16364 tms390 micro ti com david tms390 micro ti com \( david thomas \) writes article delphi gsfc nasa gov , packer delphi gsfc nasa gov \( charles packer \) writes thing msg \( monosodium glutamate \) sensitivity \? saw ny times sunday scientists testified fda advisory panel complaints msg sensitivity superstition anybody experience contrary \? i'm old enough remember issue come least couple times since 1960s called chinese restaurant syndrome chinese always used far , 've seen dozen posts anecdotal evidence , facts suspect strong psychological effect work anyone results scientific study using double blind trials \? check , 20 posts maybe missed amidst flurry responses \? yet , use newsgroup hampered people restricting posts matters substantial knowledge cites msg , look almost anything john w olney , toxicologist studied effects msg brain development undisputed literature msg excitotoxic food additive , major constituent , glutamate essentially neurotransmitter mammalian brain \( humans included \) much diet , system gets thrown glutamate aspartate , also excitotoxin necessary small amounts , freely available many foods , amounts added industry far amounts would normally encountered ny single food eating lots junk food , packaged soups , diet soft drinks , possible jack blood levels high , anyone sensitivity compounds suffer numerous real effects read olney 's review paper prog brain res , 1988 , check sources impecable dispute dianne murray wcsbeau ccs carleton ca order excitotoxin effects msg , msg blood must go blood brain barrier sure msg go normal condition , concentration glutamate fluid 2 um high enough activate one type glutamate receptor receptor question neuron cell brain lots transport get glutamate neuron one know exact concentration glutamate around neurons glutamate important neurotransmitter central nervous system involved daily life like movement , , memory learn \( involved term thought basis learning \)
dyer spdcc com \( steve dyer \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? organization p dyer computer consulting , cambridge lines 78 article 1993apr16 447 cunews carleton ca wcsbeau alfred carleton ca \( opirg \) writes far , 've seen dozen posts anecdotal evidence , facts suspect strong psychological effect work anyone results scientific study using double blind trials \? check , 20 posts um , hate break , article numbers unique per site meaning machines maybe missed amidst flurry responses \? mean responses pointed double blind tests show chinese restaurant effect unique msg \( 's placebo well \) yet , use newsgroup hampered people restricting posts matters substantial knowledge like youself \? someone read scientific paper apparently come away bizarrely cracked ideas nothing use substance human nutrition \? cites msg , look almost anything john w olney , toxicologist studied effects msg brain development undisputed literature msg excitotoxic food additive , , 's undisputed literature glutamate amino acid neurotransmitter also evidence excessive release glutamate may involved pathology certain conditions like stroke , drowning lou gehrig 's disease , name completely different issue use ubiquitous amino acid foods people receiving intra ventricular injections glutamate major constituent , glutamate essentially neurotransmitter mammalian brain \( humans included \) n't know premier , 's certainly important one much diet , system gets thrown sez effect humans demonstrated controlled studies infant mice models useful far go , 're relevant matter hand say favor use things like baby food patently ridiculous use additive reason believe msg diet effects humans adversely glutamate aspartate , also excitotoxin necessary small amounts , freely available many foods , amounts added industry far amounts would normally encountered ny single food wrong know much aspartate phenylalanine soft drink \? milligrams worth compare glass milk know much glutamate present protein containing foods compared added use msg \? eating lots junk food , packaged soups , diet soft drinks , possible jack blood levels high , anyone sensitivity compounds suffer numerous real effects notice subtle covering ass anyone sensitivity 're disputing size class read olney 's review paper prog brain res , 1988 , check sources impecable dispute certainly dispute steve dyer dyer ursa major spdcc com aka ima , harvard , rayssd , linus , m2c ! spdcc ! dyer
drand spinner osf org \( douglas rand \) subject chronic sinus antibiotics reply dehp calvin edu 's message fri , 16 apr 1993 18 12 14 gmt organization open software foundation mojo eng umd edu dehp 117 calvin edu distribution na lines 29 article dehp 117 calvin edu dehp calvin edu \( phil de haan \) writes article mojo eng umd edu georgec eng umd edu \( george b clark \) writes also inside nose bacitracin using q tip bacitracin antibiotic bought otc ointment tube doctor listen radio says apply 30 days , taking antibiotics mouth new doctor gave prescription today something called septra ds said may cause gi problems sensitive stomach begin anybody ever taken antibiotic good \? suggestions avoiding upset stomach \? tips \? 've taken septra daughter taken many times ear infections works sometimes drug problem found i'm sensitive developed rash nine days ten day course septra doctor remiss telling watch rash quite dark n't realize could drug reaction harm done though doug douglas rand drand osf org osf motif dev snail 11 cambridge center , cambridge , 02142 disclaimer n't know osf agrees let 's vote amateur radio kc1kj
richard tis com \( richard clark \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? organization trusted information systems , inc lines 30 nntp posting host sol tis com packer delphi gsfc nasa gov \( charles packer \) writes thing msg \( monosodium glutamate \) sensitivity \? saw ny times sunday scientists testified fda advisory panel complaints msg sensitivity superstition anybody experience contrary \? i'm old enough remember issue come least couple times since 1960s called chinese restaurant syndrome chinese always used blood pressure , heart pounds , ca n't get sleep life feels like drank 8 cups coffee avoid , beet sugar , flavor , beet powder , whatever names may go basicaly read ingredients , n't know , n't buy product msg sensitivity definately real relativity richard h clark opinions , watch road ought , 's fault voted perot ! circumstances richard tis com company
turpin cs utexas edu \( russell turpin \) subject science methodology \( homeopathy tradition \? \) organization cs dept , university texas austin lines 53 distribution inet nntp posting host saltillo cs utexas edu keywords science errors turpin agree everything lee lady wrote previous post thread case puzzles people , would like expand two comments article news hawaii edu lady uhunix uhcc hawaii edu \( lee lady \) writes avoiding mistakes certainly highly desirable however also widely acknowledged creativity extreme case , becomes paralyzed possible mistakes might make unable even leave house one important \( difficult \) aspects reasoning empirical investigation lies understanding context , scope , importance various arguments pieces evidence claim errors break back piece research , leave hole needs filled , trivial importance grave mistake confuse past thread doubt einstein used formal methodology also proposed numerous experiments performed would distinguish universe special relativity holds one back lee lady rules according many post sci med sci psychology according posters 's supported carefully designed controlled studies 's science posters making mistake previously criticized adhering methodological recipe carefully designed controlled study neither always possible always important \( hand , someone proposing remedy supposedly alleviates chronic medical problem , enough knowledge errors plagued kind claim ask carefully designed controlled study alleviate skepticism \) rules support hypothesis carefully designed controlled study narrow apply investigation think requirements particular reasoning convincing depends greatly kinds mistakes occurred past reasoning kinds things \( reuse previous example , know conclusions uncontrolled observations treatment chronic medical problems notoriously problematic \) russell
mark tarbell suite com subject , et al organization suite software lines 7 reply suite ! tarbell uunet uu net nntp posting host suite com difference purposes behind sampling \? sound similar , intended detect different things \? thanks
subject need help steroid research eis calstate edu \( thomas thompson \) organization calif state univ electronic information services lines 8 term paper steroids , actually scientist helped drug discovered joseph one researchers helped create steroids information person know research 1930 's already research local libraries , still need information instructor requiring resources computer networks please write back concerning subject , books , articles , etc , appreciated
jplpost jpl nasa gov \( barry rein \) subject need survival data colon cancer organization jet propulsion laboratory lines 17 distribution world nntp posting host jpl nasa gov relative mine recently diagnosed colon cancer would like know best source survival statistics disease discovered various stages would prefer directed recent source data , rather receive data thank , barry rein jplpost jpl nasa gov clever comment
fulk cs rochester edu \( mark fulk \) subject science methodology \( homeopathy tradition \? \) organization university rochester lines 53 article unx sas com sasghm theseus unx sas com \( gary merrill \) writes article 1993apr16 cs rochester edu , fulk cs rochester edu \( mark fulk \) writes genes fantasy led sequence samples band carry binding assays result well conserved , 400 bp , sequence characterize flight fancy fantasy \? fantasy found something fundamental importance one hot questions day \( '77 \) really little reason believe , raw hope fantasy , certainly n't mean theory domain \) would offer rather well known examples toricelli 's de dome experiment done sake sea air hypothesis i'm familiar history experiment , although , arguably , surprising \? well , given prior explanations phenomena involved certainly counted theory constructed \( experiment designed \) perfectly rational grounds \? well , pretty successful well know theory fluids analogy fluids toricelli explicit novelty thinking air fluid \( quite novelty time \) theory interesting \? yes new \? well , one could argue merely extension existing theory new domain , think begs certain questions debate like think enough contemporaries found result surprising 's 'd quibble 'd like know toricelli 's reasons experiment post hoc constructed reasons , thoughts head considered problem may impossible know much toricelli 's thoughts 's bad one root bernstein 's services science gone rooting pasteur 's fleming 's \( people 's \) notes , discovered surprising clues motivations pasteur never publicly admitted plan create mirror image life , dreams right notebooks \( finally public many years \) , ready anyone read friends often ridiculous reasons pursuing results one best came mad colleague poorly written claim \( disproved claim \) course , toricelli 's case may example fantasy motivates experiment , turns right end mark mark fulk university rochester computer science department fulk cs rochester edu
cislabs pitt edu \( stephen brener \) subject japanese scientists engineers organization university pittsburgh lines 101 intensive japanese university pittsburgh summer university pittsburgh offering two intensive japanese language courses summer courses , intensive elementary japanese intensive intermediate japanese , ten week , ten credit courses equivalent one full year japanese language study begin june 7 end august 13 courses meet five days per week , five hours per day flat rate tuition charge 1600 per course fellowships available science engineering students contact steven brener , program manager japanese science technology management program , university pittsburgh number address interested individuals encouraged apply , limited university students new program announcement japanese science technology management program japanese science technology management program \( jstmp \) new program jointly developed university carnegie mellon university students professionals engineering scientific encouraged apply classes june 1993 january 1994 program objectives program intends promote technology transfer japan united states also designed let scientists , engineers , managers experience japanese proceed technological development extended internships japanese research facilities laboratories provide participants opportunity develop long term professional relationships japanese counterparts program design fulfill objectives program , participants required develop advanced language capability deep understanding japan culture , jstmp consists three major components 1 training japanese language several japanese language courses offered , including intensive courses designed language preparation scientists engineers relatively short time 2 education japanese business social culture particular placed deep understanding cultural educational basis japanese management approaches manufacturing information technology courses available variety departments throughout universities including anthropology , sociology , history , political science moreover , conducted , field trip japanese manufacturing research facilities united states scheduled 3 internship study mission japan upon completion language cultural training pitt cmu , participants opportunity go japan observe , participate management technology internships japan generally run one year however , shorter ones possible fellowships covering tuition language culture courses , well living expenses available information application materials contact steven brener susie brown jstmp carnegie mellon university , university pittsburgh pittsburgh , pa 15213 3890 forbes telephone \( 412 \) 268 pittsburgh , pa fax \( 412 \) 268 telephone \( 412 \) 648 fax \( 412 \) 648 interested individuals , companies institutions respond phone mail please inquire via e mail please note directed grads professionals , however , advanced considered , funding us citizens permanent residents us steve brener
georgec eng umd edu \( george b clark \) subject endometriosis organization university maryland lines 6 nntp posting host athens eng umd edu may want inquire taking medication 's supposed new treatment , 's described nov 1992 issue j gyn taken monthly injection , whereas drugs taken daily pills
cps harvard edu \( chris schaeffer \) subject eugenics summary difficult organization harvard university , cambridge , distribution world lines 28 article pitt uucp geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) writes probably within 50 years , new type eugenics possible \? make race disease free , long lived , arnold schwartzenegger muscled , supermen \? even gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon two thoughts think psychologically easier next generation accept genetic manipulation seems people upon , ignoring old practice new human intervention manipulation routinely certainly big interesting human probably massively full trade offs addition , without positive social environment genetic gifts , wo n't advantage 's made people certainly pursue grail , know turn chris schaeffer
akins cbnewsd cb att com \( kay akins \) subject food related seizures \? organization summary seizures foods lines 35 article paulson cmb00 larc nasa gov , paulson tab00 larc nasa gov \( sharon paulson \) writes posting group hopes finding someone network heard something similar going describe fourteen year old experienced seizure november 3 , 1992 6 45am eating kellog 's frosted flakes perfectly healthy , never experienced anything like , history seizures either side family tests \( eeg , mri , ekg \) came negative decision made nothing wait see happened well , going along fine morning , april 5 , bowl another kellog 's frosted kind cereal , fruit loops \( embarrassed admit even bought junk every \) pour bowl think oh , oh , kind junk eating seizure ten minutes later full blown seizures first exposure sugar coated cereal since last seizure daughter epilepsy attend monthly parent support group wednesday night , mother telling decided throw junk food see made difference 13 year old 's seizures one seizure per week reported thursday \( 3 11 \) , seizure saturday went 4 weeks without seizure ! ! easter went grandma 's ate candy , pop anything wanted seizure next day sees sensitivity nutrasweet , sugar , colors , corn corn says , gets nervous daughter \( age 7 \) , think also sensitive stays away foods never gum , wo n't eat candy , prefers apple cookie , n't like chocolate wo n't even use ! ! ! brother , hand , junk food addict ! hope helps good luck
mcg2 ns1 cc lehigh edu \( marc gabriel \) subject bouncing lymenet newsletters organization lehigh university lines 22 following 4 addresses lymenet mailing list , rejecting mail since list server originally accepted addresses successfully , assume addresses since eliminated improperly functioning mail gateways might also responsible listed would still like remain list , please write otherwise , remove addresses list next newsletter goes general rule , please remember unsubscribe mailing lists account closed save listserv maintainer many headaches sun com kenneth r hall xerox com ! ayoub uunet uu net com ! rsb panix com marc c gabriel u c box 545 \( 215 \) 882 lehigh university
andersom spot colorado edu \( marc anderson \) subject miracle anyone \? nntp posting host spot colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 47 , j w \( 1992 \) biological psychology publishing co belmont , ca pg 219 reproduced without permission digression 6 1 miracle modification taste receptors although miracle berry , plant native west africa practically , temporarily changes taste substances miracle contain protein , , modifies sweet receptors way stimulated acids \( , gentile , , , 1974 \) ever get chance chew miracle berry \( recommend \) , next half hour acids \( normally sour \) taste sweet continue taste sour well , time , commercially available united states diet aid idea could coat tongue pill eat drink , slightly acidic substances substances would taste sweet without providing many calories colleague spent evening experimenting miracle drank straight lemon juice , sauerkraut juice , even vinegar tasted extremely sweet somehow forgot acidic substances next day find mouths full ulcers continued discussion couple taste altering substances refs , l , gentile , r l , , h r , , h l \( 1974 \) sweet taste induced miracle fruit \( \) physiology behavior 12 \( 6 \) 449 456 anyone ever hear things know get \? marc andersom spot colorado edu
kuhub cc ukans edu subject panic disorder success stories organization university kansas academic computing services lines 32 posted sci psychology april 3 , seeing post disorder thought would relevant research indicates two schools thought exist literature promoting medication says 's superior treatment surprisingly , literature promoting cognitive therapy also claims superior facts \? early research n't bias towards either medication cognitive therapy interested treatment worked reading journals published 1986 , cognitive therapy camp claims higher success rate \( approx 80 \) , lower drop rate , side effects associated medication lars published excellent article titled applied relaxation description coping technique review controlled studies res ther , vol 25 , 5 , pp 397 409 , 1987 article provides instructions perform applied relaxation \( ar \) briefly , start two 15 minute sessions daily , progress 8 12 weeks performing 10 15 thirty second sessions daily 'll snail mail article anyone interested \( usa please international please pay postage \) mark kuhub cc ukans edu
mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) subject food related seizures \? nntp posting host aisun3 ai uga edu organization ai programs , university georgia , athens lines 12 i'm told corn allergy fairly common wife seems exacerbated sugar eaten corn suppose person verge epilepsy , allergic reaction might cause seizure , n't really know gordon \? michael covington , associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu university georgia phone 706 542 0358 athens , georgia 30602 7415 u amateur radio n4tmi
subject post polio syndrome information needed please ! ! ! keith actrix gen nz \( keith stewart \) organization actrix information exchange lines 9 wife become interested acquaintance post polio syndrome apparently recognised new zealand different \( eg chest complaints \) treated separately information thanks keith
spp zabriskie berkeley edu \( steve pope \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? organization u c berkeley erl lines 13 distribution world nntp posting host zion berkeley edu carl lydick 're condemning one particular ingredient without evidence 's ingredient reacted believe mass anectdotal evidence , combined lack properly constructed scientific experiment disproving hypothesis , makes msg reaction hypothesis likely explanation events steve
simon n mcrae dartmouth edu \( simon n mcrae \) subject hepatitis b x posted internews1 newshost dartmouth edu organization dartmouth college , hanover , nh lines 38 article 1993apr14 russell sinclair day canrem com \( russell sinclair day \) writes really worried knowing facts doctor stated things good carrier avoids questions subject really would like know take steps plan advance thank informative post right trying find everything russ unfortunately , hep b infection chronic hepatitis subsequent cirrhosis although many patients hep b go chronic hepatitis , still occur good number \( 20 \? \) something keep mind hepatitis c \( non , non b hep \) much frequently leads chronic hep cirrhosis also chronic hepatitis affects mostly younger women also leads cirrhosis course , cirrhosis disease dangerous effects relate portal hypertension loss liver function patients develop life threatening bleeds hepatic , among many problems , result disturbances hepatic circulation less , exhibit effects often characterize patients cirrhosis effects include \( small red skin lesions \) , men , \( breast development \) real treatment cirrhosis liver transplant keep mind cirrhosis expected , least statistically , friend 's case nevertheless might want bring subject chronic disease cirrhosis doctor hopefully carefully explain hep b infection , offer support simon
jim zisfein factory com \( jim zisfein \) subject food related seizures \? distribution world organization invention factory 's bbs new york city , ny 212 274 8298v 32bis reply jim zisfein factory com \( jim zisfein \) lines 27 sp paulson tab00 larc nasa gov \( sharon paulson \) sp describe fourteen year old experienced sp seizure november 3 , 1992 6 45am eating kellog 's frosted sp flakes sp well , going along fine morning , april 5 , sp bowl another kellog 's frosted kind cereal , fruit loops \( sp mentioned ate first time possible reason sp seizure neurologist basically idea sp second episode , similar nature first , even sp scratching head 's data sugar coated cereals cause seizures n't even seen anything anecdotal given common eaten know child adolescent n't eat stuff \? think relationship would know also , 's nothing weird cereals far brain concerned \( except infantile metabolic disorders \) , sugar sugar , regardless coated cereal , onto cereal , dissolved soda , coffee whatever interest years ago aspartame lowering seizure , n't believe anything ever came slmr 2 1 e mail jim zisfein factory com \( jim zisfein \)
jim zisfein factory com \( jim zisfein \) subject could migraine \? \? \? \? distribution world organization invention factory 's bbs new york city , ny 212 274 8298v 32bis reply jim zisfein factory com \( jim zisfein \) lines 16 gb geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) gb hmo would stop ordering , , tests gb ordered 's somewhat statement i'm sure fees lab tests doctor 's income , however , including one work , direct incentive order profits group shared among partners , group large individual 's generated costs miniscule effect n't believe order , i'm really sure right amount ordering relative average british neurologist , suspect rather drastically order slmr 2 1 e mail jim zisfein factory com \( jim zisfein \)
netcom com \( nancy p milligan \) subject need advice doctor patient relationship problem organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 15 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 'd dump rude rude seems enjoys humiliating n't dump , write tell firing , think sending copy letter whoever charge clinic works , applicable , maybe even ama n't letter , truthful firm n't victim put take control ! 'll make feel great ! nancy nancy p milligan netcom com dale cts com
mhollowa ic sunysb edu \( michael holloway \) subject homeopathy respectable medical tradition \? keywords yes , science , stupid ! nntp posting host engws5 ic sunysb edu organization state university new york stony brook lines 75 article tripos com homer tripos com \( webster homer \) writes mhollowa ic sunysb edu \( michael holloway \) writes 's error really think shows confusion part \( drum roll please \) science n't much gathering evidence support assertion \( read hypothesis \) gathering empirical observations order make hypothesis convince \( \) n't final product much product made 's error observation hypothesis tainted theory theory , make observations , observations made theory mind yes , absolutely , though 'd make observation general sense observations made human beings therefore made various biases message leaves talk hypothesis gets back , , equating business science end result , gizmo produced science works well developing theories within paradigms , poor dealing paradigm shifts develop novel paradigm explains homeopathy , chinese medicine , spontaneous combustion paradigm useful show way make observations prove disprove point n't much whether novel paradigm come developing paradigm modern medicine body reduced set essentially mechanical operations wherein disease seen malfunctions machinery , essentially old newtonian model world seems likely theories based upon paradigm give complete discription universe , medicine , healing etc indeed recognize important psychological component healing perhaps 'd admit oversimplification part \( topic philosophy science made , i'm making \) think also summarizes popular misconceptions science business science biomedical research n't make basic assumptions n't discipline scientific research , make empirical observations , form hypothesis test modern medicine much biochemistry old newtonian model world doubt many psychologists would appreciate put outside empirical world view psychology also biochemistry spoon bending also important distinguish reason science science may reasonable , many non scientific methodologies aristotle reasoned frogs came mud observing one hop puddle , course , good example empirical tion tested , though perhaps aristotle , eventually found wanting meantime , folk continued believe spontaneous generation animal life 's nothing surprising , 's way gathering knowledge works probably things discipline molecular biology found totally base , even idiotic , someone future future people wo n't come suddenly gone zen like vision lsd trip someone thought something new tested bit people seem misrepresenting science research ca n't seem wrap minds around science creative process think factual good research totally turned head tommorrow new results theories , think gets defining mean science often n't recognize , involved , way science portrayed popular media writings people humanities portray science collection immutable facts , pronouncements truth big gold letters 's silly though go lab , turn stone , come mechanism tion much interesting really human process
yfn ysu edu \( michael holloway \) subject organ donation transplantation fact sheet organization st elizabeth hospital , youngstown , oh lines 32 reply yfn ysu edu \( michael holloway \) nntp posting host yfn ysu edu previous article , dougb comm mot com \( doug bank \) says article 1993apr12 sbcs sunysb edu , mhollowa ic sunysb edu organ donors healthy people died suddenly , usually accident head injury brain dead organs kept alive mechanical means ok , define healthy people \? wife cannot donate blood malarial region past three years fact , tried bone marrow typed would n't even ! \? ca n't donate blood either malarial region , also diagnosed \( surgically treated \) testicular cancer blood bank wont accept blood 10 years obviously , would n't much help treat one problem knowingly introducing another cancer imperfect understanding facts cancer particularly dangerous regard n't done research , n't recall ever hearing case cancer transmitted blood transfusion probably common sense kind arbitrary precaution diseases like malaria though obviously another story michael holloway e mail mhollowa ccmail sunysb edu \( mail freenet forwarded \) phone \( 516 \) 444 3090
wcsbeau alfred carleton ca \( opirg \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? organization carleton university , ottawa , canada lines 44 article 1993apr16 ohsu edu tong ohsu edu \( gong tong \) writes article 1993apr16 447 cunews carleton ca wcsbeau alfred carleton ca \( opirg \) writes cites msg , look almost anything john w olney , toxicologist studied effects msg brain development undisputed literature msg excitotoxic food additive , major constituent , glutamate essentially neurotransmitter mammalian brain \( humans included \) much diet , system gets thrown glutamate aspartate , also excitotoxin necessary small amounts , freely available many foods , amounts added industry far amounts would normally encountered ny single food eating lots junk food , packaged soups , diet soft drinks , possible jack blood levels high , anyone sensitivity compounds suffer numerous real effects read olney 's review paper prog brain res , 1988 , check sources impecable dispute dianne murray wcsbeau ccs carleton ca order excitotoxin effects msg , msg blood must go blood brain barrier sure msg go elevated levels glu asp blood able bypass blood brain barrier organs \( cvo \) , particular \( pituitary gland \) areas nucleus , median regions particularly effected cvo areas subject blood brain barrier areas control release , controls release flux steroids governing development , especially sexual development changes adult rats , less sensitive glu humans , observed ingesting glu , chronic basis , cycles several steroids disrupted blood levels significantly reduced , release steroids becomes flattened hope helps dianne murray wcsbeau ccs carleton ca
lindae netcom com subject friend needs advice organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 38 friend mine symptoms asked post following information weeks ago , noticed hair starting fall would touch head strands hair would fall right \( way , 29 30 years old \) continued occur bald spot size half dollar since time , gotten two bald spots size symptoms 's described include several months irregular menstrual cycle \( strange , always extremely regular \) every days wake one morning almost voice , next day 's fine dizzy spells claims 's 4 5 bad dizzy spells early morning , including one knocked ground general fatigue went dermatologist first could n't find reason symptoms sent suspected thyroid problems blood work claims everything came back normal 's concerned confused anyone ideas suggestions \? told thought see endocrinologist sound like right idea \? way , case going ask , recently taken medications would cause symptoms , n't recently changed hair products n't gotten perm , coloring , chemical process might cause hair fall thanks advance help !
mmm cup portal com \( mark robert thorson \) subject \( eugenics \) article cup organization portal system \( tm \) lines 36 probably within 50 years , new type eugenics possible maybe even sooner mapping human genome start work manipulation genome using genetic engineering , able insert whatever genes want breeding , , etc ethical question , \? make race disease free , long lived , arnold schwartzenegger muscled , supermen \? even probably within 50 years , possible disassemble assemble bodies molecular level flawless cosmetic surgery possible , flawless cosmetic like store prices shelf priced bar coded goods head , catch errors make store 's favor safeway \? like mentally edit spell check responses questions posed phone caller selling vacation time share options \? indeed , today nation risk ! threat bad genes , bad memes ! memes basic units culture , opposed genes units genetics stand brink new meme amplification technologies ! harmful memes formerly restricted destructive power run rampant countryside , laying waste real benefits future technology offer example , jeremy busy trying whip emotions new genetically engineered tomatoes development guy inventing harmful memes , virtual memetic mary must expand public health laws include people harmful memes allowed infect people memes genetically engineered food , electromagnetic fields , space shuttle solid rocket boosters
nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \( david nye \) subject need advice doctor patient relationship problem article cnsvax 1993apr17 organization university wisconsin eau claire lines 12 reply mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) sounds though heart 's right place , adept expressing received meant profound apology apologies delivered overworked shy people often come like guy n't sound shy sounded like jerk say ditch someone knowledgeable david nye \( nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \) midelfort clinic , eau claire wi patently absurd whoever wishes become philosopher must learn frightened absurdities bertrand russell
mhollowa ic sunysb edu \( michael holloway \) subject science methodology \( homeopathy tradition \? \) keywords science errors turpin nntp posting host engws5 ic sunysb edu organization state university new york stony brook lines 16 article news hawaii edu lady uhunix uhcc hawaii edu \( lee lady \) writes furthermore , big bucks approach science promotes think one significant errors science choosing investigate questions readily handled currently fashionable methodology \( one readily get institutional corporate sponsorship \) instead directing attention questions seem fundamental significance shades james watson ! 's exactly way many workers described human genome project take rigid definition scientific research , mere accumulation data science one early arguments project resources would better used focus specific genetics related problems rather going collecting maps sequence project ca n't narrowly defined easily described though
mckay alcor concordia ca \( john mckay \) subject lasers originator mckay alcor concordia ca nntp posting host alcor concordia ca organization concordia university , montreal , quebec lines 15 limited 30 years , finding resistant creams tried , wonder use lasers destroy fungus would seem likely effective inexpensive good reasons using lasers \? told yet reached laser age john mckay vax2 concordia ca deep ideas simple odd groups even even
csie nctu edu tw \( ming zhou liu \) subject h e l p e desperate vd organization dep computer science engin chiao tung u , taiwan , roc lines 20 bad luck got vd called , involves growth groin found checking medicine books found know go clinic get cured unfortunately serving duty army right think 's impossible prevent anyone knowing take leaves every day two weeks treatment thus bought prescribed tablets , cure must get injection , dose 1g every 12 hours , least 10 days probably buy tools solution somewhere know injection ! kind people tell 's possible \? arm \? must done hip \? \? info welcome please write post help soon ! ! \( already taking tablets ca n't wait ! ! \) please n't flame posting , n't judge 've learned lesson need real medical help desperate taipei
ron roth rose com \( ron roth \) subject selective placebo x gated usenet rosemail gateway \( v1 70 \) organization rose media inc , toronto , ontario lines 34 romdas uclink berkeley edu \( ella baff \) writes jb rr n't doubt placebo effect alive well jb rr every medical estimated around 20 , jb rr would higher alternative versus conventional jb rr medicine \? jb jb time , closer 90 experience , jb substance intervention beyond good intentions jb practitioner , quite therapeutic jb jb john badanes , dc , ca jb romdas uclink berkeley edu well , 's case practice , hard time figuring even managed make bottom half class , create crayons \? someone runs medical practice 10 success rate , either tackle problems qualified treat , conscience business purposes otoh , kidding , new england medical journal 1984 ran heading ninety percent diseases treatable drugs surgery , echoed several reports wonder mds amused alternative medicine , since 20 magic placebo effect would award alternative practitioners twice success rate conventional medicine ron rosereader 2 00 p003228 fear cat something rosemail 2 10 usenet rose media hamilton \( 416 \) 575 5363
ron roth rose com \( ron roth \) subject scientific yawn x gated usenet rosemail gateway \( v1 70 \) organization rose media inc , toronto , ontario lines 94 gordon rubenfeld responds ron roth gr ron roth rose com \( ron roth \) wrote gr gr rr well , gordon , look results , anyone 's scientific gr rr stamp approval gr gr patients \( followers \? \) convinced \( 've written \) gr methods uncontrolled , undocumented , , unsubstantiated , gr subjective research great , rest us care \? gordon , even trying beat issue death , 'll never get one ! never tried force type medicine \? patients happy i'm happy peers seem miserable ones around bemoaning steady loss patients alternative camp look europe steady exodus medicine decade , 'll matter time people continent abandon drug white coat worship well visit different doctors different needs gr see ron , point n't whether patients gr convinced whatever works 's whether gr effective similar cases \( whatever think gr treating \) , , placebo interesting come exactly conclusions regards conventional medicine see , n't treat little old ladies would n't know different done , bulk patients consist teachers , lawyers , judges , nurses , , university graduates , various health practitioners people gotten results method unsuccessful , certainly would n't lose sleep whether peers approve treatments let 's face , committed scientific mds years , know lot people hold scientific method much lower esteem hold mine ! gr far know crystals homeopathy ron roth gr may equal placebo administered appropriate gr sorry , i'm familiar interested appears 'new medicine \( , crystals \) , exception , took course gordon , already knew wanted make system look bit far , right \? use homeopathy little , since cellular test \( emr \) hard beat accuracy minerals predictable , homeopathy problem reliability , especially acute conditions exception perhaps homeopathic act fairly quickly dependable certain viral bacterial situations gr colleagues spend hours debating study design gr results , even therapies currently accepted standard gr good \( well , adequate \) scientists , prepared , gr presented appropriate data , abandon deeply held gr beliefs favor new ideas met challenges hundreds sceptics verifying accuracy measuring mineral status total tion words everyone involved happy ! cook meal , would worry whether everyone world would find liking , end eating \? since financed every research project undertaken entirely , n't need follow rules guide lines satisfy aspects grant application , may neither concerned whether study designs meet anyone else 's criteria acceptance gr sorry ron , conviction ruler truth , flat earth would gr still center universe epilepsy curse gods think would justification uneducated person growing uncivilized environment believe flat earth , civilized , well educated scientifically trained mind follow doctrine evolution genetic engineering course final frontier show god \( properly \) done 've become capable creating paradise give disease \( god \) boot , right \? get rid good , perhaps could leave us pointers solve couple tiny problems , war , poverty , racism , crime , riots , substance abuse one last thing , could also give us hint control natural disasters , weather , last , least peace \? ron rosereader 2 00 p003228 lab called brain ready rosemail 2 10 usenet rose media hamilton \( 416 \) 575 5363
ron roth rose com \( ron roth \) subject selective placebo x gated usenet rosemail gateway \( v1 70 \) organization rose media inc , toronto , ontario lines 30 \( russell turpin responds article ron roth \( \( r n't doubt placebo effect alive well \( r every medical estimated around 20 , \( r would higher alternative versus conventional \( r medicine \? \( \( know \? could show careful \( measurement , suspect would paper worthy publication \( variety medical journals \( \( russell notice question mark end sentence , addressing question person \( dog named sugar \) people seem opinion would love anyone come study support claims placebo effect prevalent alternative compared conventional medicine perhaps study could also include patients respond dissatisfied conventional versus alternative doctor , e practitioner likely get punched face success treatment n't meet expectations patient ! ron rosereader 2 00 p003228 doubt , make sound convincing ! rosemail 2 10 usenet rose media hamilton \( 416 \) 575 5363
turpin cs utexas edu \( russell turpin \) subject \( eugenics \) organization cs dept , university texas austin lines 17 nntp posting host saltillo cs utexas edu summary lousy idea cross posted followups directed talk politics theory article cup portal com mmm cup portal com \( mark robert thorson \) writes indeed , today nation risk ! threat bad genes , bad memes ! memes basic units culture , opposed genes units genetics must expand public health laws include people harmful memes words , jail people say wrong things advocacy , see truly ugly meme mark robert thorson advocate \? russell
turpin cs utexas edu \( russell turpin \) subject h e l p e desperate vd organization cs dept , university texas austin lines 17 nntp posting host saltillo cs utexas edu summary 's help article 1993apr17 debbie cc nctu edu tw csie nctu edu tw \( ming zhou liu \) writes bad luck got vd called , involves growth groin found checking medicine books found ming zhou liu 's main problem incompetent physician physician diagnosed problem , even though probably never seen diagnosed disease idea kinds problems present similar symptoms physician wants treat first case disease without help medical community best thing ming zhou liu could fire current physician seek better one russell
rsilver world std com \( richard silver \) subject barbecued foods health risk organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 10 recent postings remind read risks associated barbecuing foods , namely carcinogens generated valid concern \? , function smoke elevated temperatures \? function cooking elements , wood charcoal vs lava rocks \? wish know thanks
nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \( david nye \) subject post polio syndrome information needed please ! ! ! organization university wisconsin eau claire lines 21 reply keith actrix gen nz \( keith stewart \) wife become interested acquaintance post polio syndrome apparently recognised new zealand different \( eg chest complaints \) treated separately information would help \( anyone else asking medical information subject \) could ask specific questions , one likely type textbook chapter covering aspects subject looking comprehensive review , ask local hospital librarian happy help request sort briefly , condition patients significant residual weakness childhood polio notice progression weakness get older one theory remaining motor neurons work harder die sooner david nye \( nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \) midelfort clinic , eau claire wi patently absurd whoever wishes become philosopher must learn frightened absurdities bertrand russell
km ky3b pgh pa us \( ken mitchum \) subject crash program basic research \? organization ky3b vax pittsburgh , pa lines 26 article wuvmd wustl edu , wuvmd \( gary \) writes contemplating idea time well doctor , wife nurse know lot doctors nurses point doctors nurses seem get sick nearly much people outside medical profession lovely area anecdotes , sure something physician , almost never get sick usually , something horrendous going around , either n't get get mild case get really sick , always something unusual situation medical school , particularly pediatrics never younger siblings , went pediatric wards suddenly found confronting sorts infectious challenges body ready pediatrics three solid months illness , temp 104 took final exam ! think happens training , beyond , constantly exposed new things , usual reactions , later , challenged something , likely exposure us , deal well get mild illness n't think immune system hyped way also , n't forget hospital flora different home , carry lot around km
mhollowa ic sunysb edu \( michael holloway \) subject science methodology \( homeopathy tradition \? \) nntp posting host engws5 ic sunysb edu organization state university new york stony brook lines 54 article 1993apr16 cs rochester edu fulk cs rochester edu \( mark fulk \) writes article unx sas com sasghm theseus unx sas com \( gary merrill \) writes article 1993apr15 cs rochester edu , fulk cs rochester edu \( mark fulk \) writes wrong observation explicitly gives impression \( may fact hold view \) common \( perhaps even correct \) approach scientist follow sit around flights fancy basis jealousies petty hatreds flights fancy , irrational approaches , common crucial thing sit around fantasies n't use unless make experiments 've known lot scientists whose fantasies lead creative work usually wo n't admit loud fantasy , prior consumption beers danger science theory generalization end far removed actual day day grunt bench yes , great involved process walk lab heavy night dreaming something hell \( long advisor n't catch easy enough \) , stamping behavior seems purpose life grant review committees peer review process general today 's world 's determines science gets funded damn good thing flights fantasy n't much chance producing anything , least biomedical research surest way graduate student ruin life work lab boss concerned fantasies student work project actually good chance producing results md 's seem particularly prone aberrant behavior \( simple example warren jelinek noticed extremely heavy band dna gel human alu fragments got excited , hoping 'd seen essential part control mechanism eukaryotic genes fantasy led sequence samples band carry binding assays result well conserved , 400 bp , sequence occurs 500 , 000 times human genome unfortunately warren 's fantasy , turns present many copies copies back genome hand , characteristics much necessity cellular reverse recognized standard method recognizing human dna created species different sets fortunately , warren used eat dinner g fridays time \) agree gary merrill 's response 've read alot alu middle repetitive sequence work 's really interesting , good work implications many fields molecular genetics 's really example well reasoned project turned interesting results unexpected mike
jeffp vetmed wsu edu \( jeff parke \) subject lyme vaccine organization college veterinary medicine wsu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 45 kathleen richards \( ucrengr \) wrote nearly 13 year old nasty reaction vaccination suffice say , lyme disease 's camping 6 states us well used watching ticks dealing simply wo n't take really active lyme disease areas drag anymore , many feel lyme disease dogs easy treat endemic area , often give appropriate antibiotics dogs presenting , swollen joints , fever recent paper \( march 1993 \) finally established lyme disease dogs reproduced controlled setting matter researchers , one fundamental requirements many acknowledge agent particular disease , vaccine manufacturer able prove disease exists paper noteworthy two regards 1 \) none animals infected treated way dogs episodes 6 8 week period occurred 2 5 months exposure period , none showed clinical signs 17 month observation period study proven , sick lyme patients showing spontaneous recovery without benefit drug treatment course , observations longer 17 months necessary sure disease n't see humans 2 \) addendum paper calls question techniques used vaccine manufacturer validate vaccine course , want world use model developed order test vaccine efficacy anyway , maybe see independent , scientifically sound evaluations vaccine next year jeff parke jeffp vetmed wsu edu also jeffp bitnet aol washington state university college veterinary medicine class 1994 , wa
kfl access digex com \( keith f lynch \) subject new diet works great ! ! ! ! organization express access public access unix , greenbelt , maryland usa lines 58 nntp posting host access digex net article pitt uucp geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) writes keith person ever heard keeps weight without conscious effort control eating behavior us diet lot keep going back obesity attribute success several factors low fat except someone else cooked meal , eat fruit , vegetables , whole grain cereals estimate get 5 10 percent calories fat little sugar salt high fiber americans get 10 grams 25 35 recommended get 50 150 sometimes 200 \( 've heard people taking fiber pills seems unlikely pills contain enough fiber make difference would likely someone getting fat popping fat pills tablets small , unless hundreds daily \) clean plate conditioning works eating last 10 takes half eating time , gives chance catch , n't still feel hungry go start eating something else n't eat i'm hungry \( unless i'm sure 'll get hungry shortly , eating wo n't practical \) bike work , 22 miles day , year round fast also bike stores , movies , everywhere else , 've never owned car estimate burns 1000 calories day also helps build maintain muscle mass , prevent insulin resistance \( diabetes runs family \) , increase metabolism \( even , metabolism low i'm rest i'm comfortable temperature 90s \( f \) , usually wear drops 80 \) cycling also motivates avoid every excess ounce \( routinely pay premium cycling products weigh slightly less others 's easier cheaper trim weight rider vehicle \) 's question mind metabolism radically different people never fat fortunately , n't different way precludes excellent health obviously , ca n't swear every obese person 've done success 've never yet heard one try n't succeed think us cycle one 's success depends large fluctuations cycle people cycle 5 pounds i'm sure everyone 's weight cycles , whether 've ever fat usually eat extremely little salt eat something , weight increase overnight much ten pounds comes week two keith lynch , kfl access digex com f p 2 , 3 2 q 1 x f f 3 2 q f f p ! 'q q p f w q p , \? x 8 1 8
cup portal com \( mike \) subject emphysema question organization portal system \( tm \) distribution na 1993apr15 radford vak12ed edu blue cis pitt edu lines 11 thanks replied initial question 've away new jersey week surprised see responses got back person asking nicotine patches , four market ciba pharmaceuticals marion \( made \) warner lambert \( cygnus made \) made elan marketed \? \?
mmm cup portal com \( mark robert thorson \) subject food related seizures \? organization portal system \( tm \) distribution world lines 6 remember hearing years back new therapy involved aggressively eliminating artificial coloring flavoring diet theory backed interesting anecdotal results certain people way sensitive chemicals people n't remember connection made seizures , certainly could n't hurt try natural diet
mmm cup portal com \( mark robert thorson \) subject problems nutrasweet \( aspartame \) \? organization portal system \( tm \) lines 11 disease body cannot process phenylalanine build blood cause seizures neurological damage odd side effect urine deeply colored , like red wine people condition must avoid nutrasweet , chocolate , anything else rich phenylalanine aspartame accused caused various vague neurological symptoms pat robertson 's program 700 club beating drum aspartame rather vigorously year , issue seems pushed back burner last year apparently , evidence strong , pat would still away
dyer spdcc com \( steve dyer \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? organization p dyer computer consulting , cambridge lines 14 article agate berkeley edu spp zabriskie berkeley edu \( steve pope \) writes mass anectdotal evidence , combined lack properly constructed scientific experiment disproving hypothesis , makes msg reaction hypothesis likely explanation events forgot smiley face ca n't believe turn berkeley tell 're aberration steve dyer dyer ursa major spdcc com aka ima , harvard , rayssd , linus , m2c ! spdcc ! dyer
young serum kodak com \( rich young \) subject blood glucose test strips originator young sasquatch nntp posting host sasquatch reply young serum kodak com organization clinical diagnostics division , eastman kodak company lines 38 article 1993apr12 omen uucp caf omen uucp \( chuck forsberg wa7kgx \) writes article 1993apr11 kodak com young serum kodak com writes human glucose 70 110 mg dl \( fasting \) 2 numbers whole blood , plasma \? serum , actually , plasma numbers whole blood numbers humans tend somewhat lower \( roughly 5 10 percent lower \) find following range whole blood fundamentals clinical chemistry n w , editor w b , 1987 human glucose \( whole blood , fasting levels \) 60 95 mg dl strips calibrated \? \( obviously measure whole blood \) indeed , measure whole blood levels , although accurate serum test done laboratory one problem cells sample continue glucose sample drawn , reducing apparent level according , however , results compare reasonably well laboratory results , although values 80 mg dl tend lower strip tests , whereas values 240 mg dl erratic conversion factor human plasma glucose whole blood \( pin \) glucose concentration \? stated , whole blood levels tend roughly 5 10 percent lower serum levels sample affect whole blood levels , however n't believe well defined conversion factor , since cell metabolism affect samples varying degrees serum plasma test much preferred except general ball park testing rich young \( kodak 's opinions \)
wcsbeau alfred carleton ca \( opirg \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? organization carleton university , ottawa , canada lines 111 article 1993apr16 spdcc com dyer spdcc com \( steve dyer \) writes article 1993apr16 447 cunews carleton ca wcsbeau alfred carleton ca \( opirg \) writes maybe missed amidst flurry responses \? mean responses pointed double blind tests show chinese restaurant effect unique msg \( 's placebo well \) many people responded anecdotal stories think safe say original poster already familiar stories presumably , wants hard info substantiate refute claims msg making people ill similarly , debunking claims without research \( whether literature lab \) , equally beside point original poster doubt already knows people think restaurant bogus placebos interesting , irrelevant question effects msg could real effects placebo effects people may allergies addition yet , use newsgroup hampered people restricting posts matters substantial knowledge like youself \? someone read scientific paper apparently come away bizarrely cracked ideas nothing use substance human nutrition \? read olney 's work \? fail see citing results peer reviewed studies qualifies bizarrely cracked cites msg , look almost anything john w olney , toxicologist studied effects msg brain development undisputed literature msg excitotoxic food additive , , 's undisputed literature glutamate amino acid neurotransmitter also evidence excessive release glutamate may involved pathology certain conditions like stroke , drowning lou gehrig 's disease , name completely different issue use ubiquitous amino acid foods people receiving intra ventricular injections glutamate tests done monkeys , well never seen study mode administration intra ventricular glu asp administered orally studies used iv sc intra ventricular normal admin method food tox studies , obvious reasons must read peer reviewed works referred would never come brain injection bunk much diet , system gets thrown sez effect humans demonstrated controlled studies infant mice models useful far go , 're relevant matter hand say favor use things like baby food patently ridiculous use additive reason believe msg diet effects humans adversely pardon , getting \? read journals \? done thorough literature search \? , 're right , mice n't best study 're four times less sensitive humans msg glutamate aspartate , also excitotoxin necessary small amounts , freely available many foods , amounts added industry far amounts would normally encountered ny single food wrong know much aspartate phenylalanine soft drink \? milligrams worth compare glass milk know much glutamate present protein containing foods compared added use msg \? point exceeding window course , 're amino acids note people pku cannot tolerate phenylalanine olney 's research compared infant human diets specifically , amount freely available glu mother 's milk versus commercial baby foods , vs typical lunch items standard american diet packaged soup mixes found one could exceed projected safety margin infant humans least four fold single meal processed foods mother 's milk well effective dose read olney 's review paper prog brain res , 1988 , check sources impecable dispute certainly dispute \? \? would interested seeing provide peer reviewed non food industry funded citations articles disputing msg effects whatsoever steve dyer dyer ursa major spdcc com aka ima , harvard , rayssd , linus , m2c ! spdcc ! dyer hmm com surprised \? dianne murray wcsbeau ccs carleton ca
hbloom moose uvm edu \( heather \) subject problems nutrasweet \( aspartame \) organization university vermont division emba computer facility lines 21 nutrasweet synthetic sweetener couple thousand times sweeter sugar people concerned chemicals body produces degrades nutrasweet thought form formaldehyde known methanol degredation pathway body uses eliminate substances real issue whether levels methanol formaldehyde produced high enough cause significant damage , toxic living cells say consume phenylalanine nothing worry amino acid , everyone uses small quantities protein synthesis body people disease known , missing enzyme necessary degrade compound eliminate body , accumulate body , high levels toxic growing nerve cells therefore , major problem young children \( around age 10 \) women pregnant disorder used leading cause brain damage infants , easily detected birth , one must simply avoid phenylalanine child , pregnant heather
dyer spdcc com \( steve dyer \) subject food related seizures \? organization p dyer computer consulting , cambridge lines 18 article cup portal com mmm cup portal com \( mark robert thorson \) writes remember hearing years back new therapy involved aggressively eliminating artificial coloring flavoring diet theory backed interesting anecdotal results certain people way sensitive chemicals people n't remember connection made seizures , certainly could n't hurt try natural diet yeah , feingold diet load crap children diagnosed add placed diet show improvement intellectual social skills , fact continue decline course , parents enthusiastic approach lap expense children 's development much value interesting anecdotal results people believe anything want steve dyer dyer ursa major spdcc com aka ima , harvard , rayssd , linus , m2c ! spdcc ! dyer
lady uhunix uhcc hawaii edu \( lee lady \) subject science methodology \( homeopathy tradition \? \) summary ultimately , ideas come exploration informal thinking organization university hawaii \( mathematics dept \) expires mon , 10 may 1993 10 00 00 gmt lines 65 article unx sas com sasghm theseus unx sas com \( gary merrill \) writes article 1993apr16 cs rochester edu , fulk cs rochester edu \( mark fulk \) writes flights fancy , irrational approaches , common crucial thing sit around fantasies n't use unless make experiments \( simple example warren jelinek noticed extremely heavy band dna gel human alu fragments got excited , characterize flight fancy fantasy \? unfamiliar scientific context , appears obvious speculation \( lack better neutral word \) least significant part consequence knowledge acceptance current theory coupled observations would appear something quite rational going attempted fit observation theory \( tailor theory cover observation \) whether scientific idea comes one staring window , dreaming , fantasy , watching apple fall \( newton \) , sitting bath \( archimedes \) ultimately result lot intense scientific thinking done beforehand letting one 's mind roam freely giving rein one 's intuition useful way coming new ideas , one done lot rational analysis problem first scientific intuition something one born something one learns maybe n't understand completely learned , training systematic scientific thinking certainly one key elements developing informal exploration also often important element finding new scientific ideas one thinks , instance , darwin 's naturalistic studies galapagos islands , led ideas theory evolution offended definition science emphasizes empirical verification recognize thinking informal exploration important scientific work agree mere speculation deserve called science also think mere empirical studies directed good scientific thinking best poor kind science article im4u cs utexas edu turpin cs utexas edu \( russell turpin \) writes think lee lady talking cross purposes lady seems concerned contrast great science makes big advances knowledge mediocre science makes smaller steps thread , concerned difference science n't think science defined way activities lead really important science namely thinking informal exploration recognized scientific work arguments behaviorists cognitivists , psychology seems less like science collection competing religious sects lady uhunix uhcc hawaii edu lady uhunix bitnet
ab961 freenet carleton ca \( robert allison \) subject laser treatment reply ab961 freenet carleton ca \( robert allison \) organization national capital freenet lines 20 family doctor \( pt \) sent agree pain left shoulder appointment \( love , 's short surgeon , apparently \) i'm waiting pt treating 's using hot packs , ultrasound , lasers , 's improvement yet fact , almost suspect 's getting worse real question laser treatment ca n't easily imagine physical effect could deep tissue problem anyone shed light \( speak \) matter \? robert allison ottawa , ontario canada
uxa cso uiuc edu \( daniel paul \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? organization university illinois urbana lines 26 dyer spdcc com \( steve dyer \) writes article agate berkeley edu spp zabriskie berkeley edu \( steve pope \) writes mass anectdotal evidence , combined lack properly constructed scientific experiment disproving hypothesis , makes msg reaction hypothesis likely explanation events forgot smiley face ca n't believe turn berkeley tell 're aberration steve dyer dyer ursa major spdcc com aka ima , harvard , rayssd , linus , m2c ! spdcc ! dyer hey , keep fu ng flaming group goes , mr dyer , well several nasty , sarcastic people , regarding subject shoot , i'm , , going ask keep discussion msg little civil blasting school idea simple insults demonstrated necessary , otherwise line want continue insult war , take elsewhere stop wasting everyone else 's time sincerely , dan
ab961 freenet carleton ca \( robert allison \) subject frequent nosebleeds reply ab961 freenet carleton ca \( robert allison \) organization national capital freenet lines 18 15 25 nosebleeds week , result genetic predisposition weak walls \( weber \) fortunately , short duration anyone know method reduce frequency \? younger brothers tried skin transplant \( thigh nose lining \) , nosebleeds soon returned 've seen reference herb called rutin supposed help , 'd like hear experiences , techniques robert allison ottawa , ontario canada
brenner ldgo columbia edu \( carl brenner \) subject update \( help ! \) lyme 's \? organization lamont doherty earth observatory lines 50 article pitt uucp , geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) writes article 1993apr7 lamont ldgo columbia edu brenner ldgo columbia edu \( carl brenner \) writes see motive easy see physicians call everything lyme treat everything lot money involved keep bringing n't understand 's financially physician go ahead treat unless physician investment \( involved scheme \) home infusion company , financial gain doctor \? well , let put way , based experience general practitioner training infectious diseases , establishing links lyme community , treating patients come wondering lyme decided lyme , saying diseases ms probably , lyme , giving talks meetings users groups , feelings even delusional patients , etc gp go run mill 100k yr gp someone lots patients hospital getting expensive need monitoring office , making lots bread also getting many believe hope \( cure , control \) seeing name publications put support groups , etc definite temptation getting published newsletters hardly something aspire \) ca n't really argue logic , though think may extrapolating bit recklessly appears sample size one even say local pittsburgh guy true , logical fair conclude true doctors treat lyme disease logic , could conclude physicians consult insurance companies make money denying benefits lyme patients money , rather believe encouraging good medicine idea sincere guys , motives suspect physicians believe indiscriminate treatment would really feel comfortable discussing medical issues lyme , rather speculating motives various parties involved gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon carl brenner
mhollowa ic sunysb edu \( michael holloway \) subject transplant recipients newsletter , april newsletter , april nntp posting host engws5 ic sunysb edu organization state university new york stony brook lines 180 first monthly postings newsletter long island chapter transplant recipients international organization \( trio \) unfortunately , unable post date month 's meeting i'm posting anyway , posting world wide instead regional , hopes information may useful also , hope used example inspiration posting newsletters data related organ transplantation donation mike transplant recipients international organization long island chapter p box 922 huntington , ny newsletter 516 421 april 1993 volume iv 8 next meeting next meeting wednesday april 14 8 pm knights columbus manor , 517 uniondale avenue uniondale guest speaker dr lewis teperman dr teperman trained pittsburgh dr starzl assistant director liver transplant program new york university medical center dr teperman discuss current trends transplantation treatment answer questions long time friend trio , surgeon many members , always gracious delightful guest sure informative , interesting engaging evening hospitality committee , jim spence well prepared , last weather cooperative hope see large gathering welcome dr teperman wednesday april 14 k c uniondale last meeting noted long island chapter trio extraordinary power predicting bad weather , able forecast rain , snow fully month advance tv match us time scored , also able disable long island railroad , making travel really difficult none less , many snow interesting meeting good conversation scheduled speaker , mrs elizabeth , professional nutritionist , family emergency able attend hope us fall discuss diet medications however , ms jennifer friedman , image consultant sister liver transplant recipient kind enough step short notice ms friedman gave us lot good advice choosing clothes makeup , \( even bit men \) help us look well healthy minimize cosmetic effects medicine drugs take grateful jennifer thank entertaining evening annual meeting addition welcoming dr teperman , april meeting also annual meeting chapter official notice meeting required laws main purpose meeting review past year , solicit member views ideas better ways meet needs , elect members board directors coming two year term committee prepared following slate board anne \( liver recipient \) robert \( heart recipient \) smith \( kidney recipient \) kay \( liver recipient \) jan \( kidney recipient \) larry \( kidney recipient \) david \( director public education \) remaining board another year robert carroll \( liver , kidney pancreas recipient \) jerry \( kidney recipient \) jeanne ron \( kidney donor \) marie healy peter smith \( bone marrow recipient \) patricia ann \( kidney pancreas recipient \) walter \( kidney recipient \) may seem big board , many hands make light work various medical uncertainties , good backups jobs board therefore , addition slate presented voting , nominations also accepted floor set number board members plenty work addition , brief treasurer 's membership reports given floor open new business , suggestions , comments anyone would like bring keep formal meeting short spend majority time dr teperman future meetings remember scheduled guests rest year may 12 dr peter , chief psychiatry columbia presbyterian medical center june 9 dr felix , director stony brook kidney transplant program plan us second wednesday month week april 18 24 national organ tissue donor awareness week planning news releases , speaking meetings , decided softball game two year 's experience miserable weather help spread word donor awareness , however found effective ask pastor , rabbi publish letter announcement parish bulletin , allow address congregation , include mention gift life sermon attached newsletter sample letter fact sheet use thank dr starzl honored long island chapter american liver foundation hold annual auction dinner dance may 7th jericho turnpike jericho dr thomas starzl honored guest tickets 50 person going fast 'd like meet dr starzl , call anne \( 516 \) 421 details membership news congratulations al reese al received heart transplant pittsburgh waiting 3 1 2 years home well 12 days hospital arthur michaels , liver recipient , planning run boston marathon april fantastic proof transplantation works ! hope national press notices bob , persistent bout infection , kidney removed home , back dialysis feeling better healy , kidney recipient daughter ron marie , spent past several weeks hospital miami problems encountered vacation marie florida back new york 's treatment continue wish speedy recovery kay , liver recipient , bad fall resulted broken arm broken leg kay candidate board need well soon best wishes coming flu tough winter many , snow see wednesday april 14 8 pm k c uniondale dr lewis teperman
dyer spdcc com \( steve dyer \) subject problems nutrasweet \( aspartame \) organization p dyer computer consulting , cambridge lines 30 article 1993apr17 uvm edu hbloom moose uvm edu \( heather \) writes nutrasweet synthetic sweetener couple thousand times sweeter sugar people concerned chemicals body produces degrades nutrasweet thought form formaldehyde known methanol degredation pathway body uses eliminate substances real issue whether levels methanol formaldehyde produced high enough cause significant damage , toxic living cells say consume aspartame methyl , product going methanol , formaldehyde amounts methanol formed ingestion aspartame containing foods completely metabolic noise , since 're forming equally minute amounts methanol components food time studies involving administration high doses additive , blood methanol levels undetectable methanol poison quantities seen human , say consequence formaldehyde acid , two quite reactive compounds high enough levels damage tissues like retina kidney , high doses body 's system overwhelmed interestingly , one treatment early methanol poisoning get person drunk ethyl alcohol vodka equivalent 's ethanol preferentially methanol enzymes liver methanol stays methanol n't formaldehyde , actually relatively non toxic steve dyer dyer ursa major spdcc com aka ima , harvard , rayssd , linus , m2c ! spdcc ! dyer
dyer spdcc com \( steve dyer \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? organization p dyer computer consulting , cambridge lines 91 article 1993apr17 cunews carleton ca wcsbeau alfred carleton ca \( opirg \) writes many people responded anecdotal stories think safe say original poster already familiar stories presumably , wants hard info substantiate refute claims msg making people ill hard info provided msg making people ill 's point , like youself \? someone read scientific paper apparently come away bizarrely cracked ideas nothing use substance human nutrition \? read olney 's work \? fail see citing results peer reviewed studies qualifies bizarrely cracked 's peer reviewed studies addressing effects msg people , 're looking animal models ca n't walk away start ranting doom documented deleterious health effects demonstrated humans note would n't argument statement like noting animal administration pro following blah , blah , must careful use humans precisely said tests done monkeys , well never seen study mode administration intra ventricular glu asp administered orally studies used iv sc intra ventricular normal admin method food tox studies , obvious reasons must read peer reviewed works referred would never come brain injection bunk certainly know , studies glutamate involve food science pardon , getting \? read journals \? done thorough literature search \? , point us studies humans , please i'm familiar literature , 've never seen relate olney 's work animals effects glutamate neurons point exceeding window course , 're amino acids note people pku cannot tolerate phenylalanine well , actually , tolerate phenylalanine 's essential amino acid try get little healthy without producing dangerous levels phenylalanine blood olney 's research compared infant human diets specifically , amount freely available glu mother 's milk versus commercial baby foods , vs typical lunch items standard american diet packaged soup mixes found one could exceed projected safety margin infant humans least four fold single meal processed foods mother 's milk well effective dose goodness , i'm saying 's good feed infants lot glutamate supplemented foods 's projected safety margin construct derived animal models given , prove anything like 're talking prudent policy infant nutrition , yet 're misrepresenting received wisdom read olney 's review paper prog brain res , 1988 , check sources impecable dispute certainly dispute \? \? would interested seeing provide peer reviewed non food industry funded citations articles disputing msg effects whatsoever mean asserting 're intellectually dishonest \( plain confused \) , 're reports necessarily anything olney 's reports would argue potential problems human infants , 's say says anything whatsoever use msg foods , provide studies humans indicate deleterious effects \( obvious reasons \) says nothing msg 's phenomenon chinese restaurant syndrome says nothing frequent inability replicate anecdotal reports msg sensitivity lab dyer ursa major spdcc com hmm com surprised \? dianne murray wcsbeau ccs carleton ca probably one dumber remarks 've made steve dyer dyer ursa major spdcc com aka ima , harvard , rayssd , linus , m2c ! spdcc ! dyer
dyer spdcc com \( steve dyer \) subject frequent nosebleeds organization p dyer computer consulting , cambridge lines 25 article 1993apr17 28921 freenet carleton ca ab961 freenet carleton ca \( robert allison \) writes anyone know method reduce frequency \? younger brothers tried skin transplant \( thigh nose lining \) , nosebleeds soon returned 've seen reference herb called rutin supposed help , 'd like hear experiences , techniques rutin bioflavonoid , compounds found \( among places \) citrus fruits popular , especially europe , treat , seemingly even extreme cases months ago , friend visiting italy , said 'd , pharmacist friend sold pills , asked look , sure enough contained rutin active ingredient probably destroyed placebo effect skeptical idea 's wise days studies attempted look effect compounds human disease nutrition never well controlled , reports positive results mostly anecdotal stuff pretty much non toxic , probably inexpensive , 's little risk trying , would n't expect much result steve dyer dyer ursa major spdcc com aka ima , harvard , rayssd , linus , m2c ! spdcc ! dyer
lundby rtsg mot com \( walter f lundby \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? nntp posting host organization motorola inc , cellular infrastructure group lines 48 thing msg \( monosodium glutamate \) sensitivity \? superstition anybody experience contrary \? person sensitive msg whose wife kids , want know food industry wants put msg food ! ! ! somebody industry give reasons ! industrial byproduct needs getting get rid \? cover fact recipes good food poor quality \? get sadistic pleasure making us sick \? taste testers defect flavor sensors \( mouth etc \) msg corrects \? really understand ! ! ! also \( sp \) \? safer ways preserve food , , beers ! think 1 \) outlaw use substances without warning labels large packages 2 \) require 30 comparable products market free substances state free msg , , package 3 \) outlaw yellow dye 5 matter dye food \? 4 \) take vitamins \( stress tabs \( tm \) n't yellow dye 5 \) doctor says yellow dye 5 responsible 1 2 nasal ! ! ! keep food food ! quit putting junk ! two cents worth sig person tired getting sick junk ! walter lundby walter lundby
lady uhunix uhcc hawaii edu \( lee lady \) subject science methodology \( homeopathy tradition \? \) summary gee , maybe 've misjudged keywords science errors turpin nlp organization university hawaii \( mathematics dept \) expires mon , 10 may 1993 10 00 00 gmt lines 141 article saltillo cs utexas edu turpin cs utexas edu \( russell turpin \) writes agree everything lee lady wrote previous post thread gee ! maybe 've misjudged , russell anyone agrees something say ca n't bad \) seriously , i'm sure whether misjudged , one respect still major problem , though , insistence science mainly avoiding mistakes still disagree contention nobody n't use methods deemed scientific possibly know 's true 's deleted material agree back lee lady rules according many post sci med sci psychology according posters 's supported carefully designed controlled studies 's science posters making mistake previously criticized adhering methodological recipe carefully rules support hypothesis carefully designed controlled study narrow apply investigation think requirements particular reasoning convincing depends greatly kinds mistakes occurred past reasoning kinds things \( reuse previous example , know conclusions uncontrolled observations treatment chronic medical problems notoriously problematic \) okay , let 's see agree first , degrees certainty might appropriate , instance , demand carefully controlled trials accept absolute scientific truth \( extent thing \) effectiveness certain treatment hand , highly favorable clinical experience , even uncontrolled , adequate justify preliminary judgement treatment useful often best evidence hope investigators institutional corporate support case , makes sense treat claims credible reserve final judgement establishment scientists qualified necessary resources careful testing secondly , makes sense tolerant standards evidence pronounced effect one marginal come dispute science mathematician veteran many arguments sci psychology \( occasionally sci med \) nlp \( programming \) much work done date better categorized informal exploration careful scientific research years trying get scientific clinical psychologists take look , read books watch videotapes \( courtesy local university library \) purpose making definitive judgement , simply look nlp methodology \( especially approach information subjects \) look ideas hypotheses might scientific interest especially aware questions nlp suggests might worthy scientific investigation response get sci n't thoroughly validated accepted form empirical research ca n't interest us , ultimate ad absurdum extreme 've got controlled studies position nlp technique called fast phobia trauma cure simple phobias \( opposed \) may world 's important psychological disorder , nice thing n't take sophisticated instrument diagnose tell someone cured one nlp phobia cure simple visualization requires less 15 minutes \( claim also used neutralize memory , hence useful treating post stress syndrome \) essentially variation classic process used behavioral subject needs taken technique \( , case , incident \) process n't need repeated subject n't need practice home , seems pretty easy test effectiveness cure \( especially , claim , success rate extremely high \) take someone fear heights \( used \) take balcony 20th floor observe response spend 15 minutes simple visualization send back balcony see things changed check back weeks see cure seems lasting \( long term follow certainly desirable , scientific point view even cure lasts several weeks significance case , many known cases cure lasted years best knowledge , known case cure reversed holding weeks \) \( cure , incidentally , done slightly different nlp technique , learned fast phobia trauma cure ten years later , enjoy living 17th floor building large balcony \) folks sci psychology hundred one excuses make simple test claim elaborate outcome study satisfactory study sort nlp practitioners , many make barely marginal living practice , ill afford \( also plain interested , whole idea seems frivolous since 're part scientific establishment , tangible rewards gain scientific acceptance \) fast phobia trauma cure ten years old clinical psychology establishment still saying n't way knowing 's effective academics resources study elaborate anyone could want , course , say prove theory \? burden proof one making claim one academic sci psychology said would completely unscientific test phobia cure since n't described scientific journal \( 's described number books 've posted articles sci psychology describing much detail i'm capable \) actually , least one fairly careful academic study done \( favorable results \) , 's apparently acceptable 's doctoral dissertation published refereed journal , sort attitude advance science kind thing mind talk attitudes science maybe unfair attitudes , russell , apologize arguments behaviorists cognitivists , psychology seems less like science collection competing religious sects lady uhunix uhcc hawaii edu lady uhunix bitnet
steveo world std com \( steven w orr \) subject need find information current trends diabetes organization , inc lines 15 looked came anyone good sources read \? particular , i'm interested finding intravenous insulin injection hepatic vein liver activation \( whew ! ! \) anything smells like pointer would helpful newsgroup , , etc many thanks time flies like wind fruit flies like bananas steven w orr steveo world std com uunet ! world ! steveo everybody repeat individuals
mark w dubin subject barbecued foods health risk originator dubin spot colorado edu nntp posting host spot colorado edu reply dubin spot colorado edu organization univ colorado boulder lines 16 rsilver world std com \( richard silver \) writes recent postings remind read risks associated barbecuing foods , namely carcinogens generated valid concern \? , function smoke elevated temperatures \? function cooking elements , wood charcoal vs lava rocks \? wish know thanks recall issue fat meat onto hot elements whatever extreme heat something fat one carcinogens carried back onto meat smoke ol' professor
mmm cup portal com \( mark robert thorson \) subject barbecued foods health risk organization portal system \( tm \) lines 72 reminds last graham kerr cooking show saw today smoked meat big pot ! used strange technique 'd never seen took big pot lid , placed tray made aluminum foil tray size shape typical coffee table ash tray , made sheet foil around edges tray , placed couple brown sugar , similar quantity brown rice \( said rice \) , contents two earl grey tea , top placed ordinary aluminum basket type steamer , two chicken breasts lid put , whole assembly went high heat 10 12 minutes later , removed looked like smoked chicken breasts surprises concerns 1 \) wood chips smoke flavor come \? 2 \) 5 10 years ago , remember hearing carmel color \( obtained sugar common coloring flavoring agent \) found carcinogenic believe injected skin rats , something results conclusive , color would legal u , yet still used initial research result found incorrect , \? 3 \) 5 10 years ago , remember earl grey tea implicated carcinogenic , contains oil \( extract skin type citrus fruit \) anyone know whatever happened story \? carcinogenic , earl grey tea could additive , yet apparently continues wrt natural wood smoke \( 've smoking duck right , happens \) , 've noticed heavily smoked food item unpleasant taste eaten directly smoker smoke recently stopped flowing find best taste using dry wood chips , getting lots smoke right beginning cooking process , slowly hours hours without adding additional wood chips theory unpleasant molecules low molecular weight stuff , like , flavor molecules sort larger molecule similar tar long barbeque time initial intensive smoke drives low molecular weight stuff , leaving flavor behind anyone know theory correct \? also remember hearing combustion products fat dripping charcoal burning carcinogenic reason , covers product soot unpleasant , grill non like directly hot coals stuff like duck indirect heat long rectangular weber , put coals one end meat end fat drops directly floor meat , next time use barbeque make fire end burn fat help ignite coals yet another reason 've heard smoke barbeque meat smoked cured meat , like pork bacon , contains , carcinogenic i'm pretty sure claim actually standing , n't know others amusing incident recall duncan hines scandal , discovered people make duncan hines cake mix putting lot \( edb \) cake mix suppress known carcinogenic guy represented company press conference defended saying risk eating duncan hines products every day year would equal cancer risk eating two charcoal steaks great analogy ! first heard , immediate reaction make standard unit ! one charcoal steak would equivalent 0 5 duncans !
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject brain definition needed reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 16 article 1993apr8 1 ksc nasa gov ksc nasa gov writes could someone please define brain \? relative one near brain infection deep brain substance hard cure antibiotics , since gets , usually , needs surgical gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
jim zisfein factory com \( jim zisfein \) subject hypoglycemia distribution world organization invention factory 's bbs new york city , ny 212 274 8298v 32bis reply jim zisfein factory com \( jim zisfein \) lines 19 anello fnal gov \( anthony anello \) anyone tell 40 diagnosed dangerous , e indicates possible problem \? one dr says , \( specialty \) says first negligent another blood blood glucose levels 40 common several hours big meal level usually cause symptoms test done also , good diet \( worked \) hypo \? mean reactive hypoglycemia , usually symptoms , hence disease , hence dietary recommendations anyone else patient complains dizziness , , sweating , , etc reliably several hours big meal , recommendations obvious eat smaller meals slmr 2 1 e mail jim zisfein factory com \( jim zisfein \)
jim zisfein factory com \( jim zisfein \) subject need advice doctor patient relationship problem distribution world organization invention factory 's bbs new york city , ny 212 274 8298v 32bis reply jim zisfein factory com \( jim zisfein \) lines 13 ml hsc usc edu \( \) ml need advice situation occurred ml upset ml questions \( 1 \) continue doctor manage care \? 's easy would n't take computer repair shop rude , even competent business would take body repair shop repairman bad attitude \? slmr 2 1 e mail jim zisfein factory com \( jim zisfein \)
slyx0 cc usu edu subject msg sensitivity superstition \? organization utah state university lines 35 \? \? would interested seeing provide peer reviewed non food industry funded citations articles disputing msg effects whatsoever mean asserting 're intellectually dishonest \( plain confused \) , 're reports necessarily anything olney 's reports would argue potential problems human infants , 's say says anything whatsoever use msg foods , provide studies humans indicate deleterious effects \( obvious reasons \) says nothing msg 's phenomenon chinese restaurant syndrome says nothing frequent inability replicate anecdotal reports msg sensitivity lab okay mr dyer , 're properly impressed philosophical skills ability insult people 're wonderful speaker adept politician however , believe asked , simply provide scientific research refuting work olney n't think original poster sought start debate wanted information given little effort one could justify shooting oneself 45 breakfast healthy practice 're interested verbally prove disprove rationalize 's research \? studies \? sounds simply would like see thread get back track lone wolf happy dream dreams , ed philips pay price see come true slyx0 cc usu edu unknown
doyle pitt edu \( howard r doyle \) subject barbecued foods health risk organization pittsburgh institute lines 18 article dubin spot colorado edu dubin spot colorado edu writes recall issue fat meat onto hot elements whatever extreme heat something fat one carcinogens carried back onto meat smoke hmmm care vague \? howard doyle doyle pitt edu
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject sleeping pill od reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 22 article 1993apr9 715 scott skidmore edu scott skidmore edu \( daniel \) writes friend mine took 60 cvs sleeping pills , containing diphenhydramine , think 's 1500 mg , total i'm worried , though , long term effects since never stomach pumped , liver brain damage \? information would greatly appreciated n't may need see shrink wanted kill depressed people succesfully treated usually gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject request information essential tremor \? reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 12 article life ai mit edu sundar ai mit edu writes essential tremor progressive hereditary tremor gets worse patient tries use effected member limbs , vocal cords , head involved beta usually effective diminishing tremor alcohol also effective , alcohol toxic use treatment gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
aldridge netcom com \( jacquelin aldridge \) subject problems nutrasweet \( aspartame \) organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 36 hbloom moose uvm edu \( heather \) writes nutrasweet synthetic sweetener couple thousand times sweeter sugar people concerned chemicals body produces degrades nutrasweet thought form formaldehyde known methanol degredation pathway body uses eliminate substances real issue whether levels methanol formaldehyde produced high enough cause significant damage , toxic living cells say consume phenylalanine nothing worry amino acid , everyone uses small quantities protein synthesis body people disease known , missing enzyme necessary degrade compound eliminate body , accumulate body , high levels toxic growing nerve cells therefore , major problem young children \( around age 10 \) women pregnant disorder used leading cause brain damage infants , easily detected birth , one must simply avoid phenylalanine child , pregnant heather remember rightly pku syndrome infants 1 1200 \? lack two genes people lack one gene supposed 1 56 persons \? pku avoid naturally occuring phenylalanine one gene whatever supposed producing supposed less tolerant aspartame , thing supposed occur heating \? n't drink figure sugar made reason quickly easily hungry people n't need calories 's easy drink water used drink six pack aspartame soda n't even drink one coke day
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject nih offers grants alternative medicine reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 30 article 1993apr9 island com green island com \( robert greenstein \) writes article pitt uucp geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) writes one problem scientists interested alternative medicine gordon , think \? probably come packaged absurd theory behind e g like cures like dilute things , powerful get , even dilute much ingredient water left chiropractic illness stems nerves vertebrae systems patently absurd , good accidental related theory exception probably , scientists recognize potent drugs derive plants always interested seeing find new plants active useful substances n't meant alternative medicine , usually get qi , charts , etc , back silly theories probably nothing works cases perhaps another reason reluctant experience scientist wanted investigate paranormal lab filled much people n't want associated sort thing gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject shoulder reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 19 article 1993apr9 e2big mko dec com steve cbm dec com \( steve katz \) writes recently managed shoulder injury also seems damaged nerves arm wondering someone could point towards literature would give background types injuries please respond email possible medical school library books peripheral nerve injuries probably plexus , look gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject many mris \? reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 15 article access digex net kfl access digex com \( keith f lynch \) writes , scans expensive , done reduce expense \? n't box big magnets , radio transmitter , attached pc \? magnets huge ! good mri sets big \( 1 5 tesla \) magnets cost millions dollars , radiologist wants 400 reading scan gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject helium non renewable \? \? \( many mris \? \) reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 18 article saltillo cs utexas edu turpin cs utexas edu \( russell turpin \) writes helium get consumed \? would thought failure contain perfectly would result back atmosphere sounds like cycle obviously , takes energy run cycle , seriously doubt helium consumption resource issue 's cycle free helium escape atmosphere due high velocity wo n't practical recover gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
kaminski netcom com \( peter kaminski \) subject need find information current trends diabetes lines 63 organization information via netcom san jose , california world std com steveo world std com \( steven w orr \) writes looked came anyone good sources read \? check diabetic mailing list knowledgable , helpful , friendly , voluminous bunch send email listserv bitnet , line body subscribe diabetic name also , vote misc health diabetes , newsgroup general discussion diabetes , currently underway , close 29 april 2nd cfv , posted news announce newgroups , news groups , sci med , message rodan uu net place vote creation misc health diabetes , send email message yes sun6850 nrl navy mil place vote creation misc health diabetes , send email message sun6850 nrl navy mil contents message contain line vote misc health diabetes proposed email messages sent addresses must constitute unambiguous unconditional votes newsgroup creation proposed conditional votes accepted votes emailed addresses counted mailed replies posting returned event one vote placed individual , recent vote counted one additional cfv posted course vote , along acknowledgment votes received date information supplied people voting final acknowledgment made end , time full vote made public voting continue 23 59 gmt , 29 apr 93 votes accepted date administrative inquiries pertaining cfv may made email swkirch sun6850 nrl navy mil proposed charter appears charter misc health diabetes unmoderated 1 purpose misc health diabetes provide forum discussion issues pertaining diabetes management , e diet , activities , medicine schedules , blood glucose control , exercise , medical breakthroughs , etc group addresses issues management type \( insulin dependent \) type ii \( non insulin dependent \) diabetes technical discussions general support discussions relevant diabetes welcome 2 postings misc heath diabetes intended discussion purposes , way construed medical advice diabetes serious medical condition requiring direct supervision primary health care physician \( end charter \)
mmatusev radford vak12ed edu \( melissa n matusevich \) subject foreskin troubles organization virginia 's public education network \( radford \) lines 3 done , short circumcision , adult male whose foreskin retract \?
joel cs mcgill ca \( joel \) subject bone marrow sclerosis summary information sought keywords severely low blood cell count nntp posting host binkley cs mcgill ca organization socs mcgill university , montreal , canada lines 10 looking information possible causes long term effects bone marrow sclerosis would also thankful anyone reading newsgroup could list recognized treatment centers anything else massive blood transfusion effective plan go library style reply , please kind enough add list suggested topics readings medicine field regards , joel joel cs mcgill ca
organization university illinois chicago , academic computer center u19250 uicvm uic edu subject quality control medicine lines 7 anybody know information regarding total quality management , quality control , quality assurance delivery health care service would appreciate information enough interest , post responses thank singla ms , mba , md president ac inc
ucrengr \( kathleen richards \) subject lyme vaccine reply eis calstate edu lines 12 nntp posting host ucrengr x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 jeff , time type 'd love reference paper ! thanks ! kathleen richards email eis calstate edu sometimes 're windshield , sometimes 're bug ! dire
kxgst1 pitt edu \( kenneth gilbert \) subject quality control medicine organization university pittsburgh lines 20 article 93108 uicvm uic edu u19250 uicvm uic edu writes anybody know information regarding total quality management , quality control , quality assurance delivery health care service would appreciate information enough interest , post responses fact hot topic medicine days , much medical literature devoted heavily funded studies days outcome research , physicians \( others ! \) constantly whether truly effective given situation qa activities routine part every hospital 's administrative function required agencies even entire publications devoted qa issues kenneth gilbert university pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit , programmer !
rgasch nl oracle com \( robert gasch \) subject homeopathy respectable medical tradition \? organization oracle europe lines 47 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 gordon banks \( geb cs pitt edu \) wrote article oracle nl rgasch nl oracle com \( robert gasch \) writes business point view , might make sense depends personality practitioner charm patients coming , homeopathy profitable wo n't covered insurance , however keep mind , 'd many european countries accepted method curing \( least \) many conditions modern medicine answer countries insurance pays treatments accepted \? scientists people every country waste time money quackery britain , worked , paid countries \? n't believe holland pay homeopathic treatment germany well austria condition helped normal medicine \( happened \) switzerland seems austria \( direct experience swiss case \) univeristy vienna \( believe well \) homeopathy taken med school found combination acupuncture changed life living hell condition enables lead relatively normal life found modern medicine powerless cure severe case \( note mean cure , symptoms , modern medicine attempts case \) i'm saying homeopathy scientific , offer help areas modern medicine absolutely helpless reading seems deeply rooted beliefs issue \( intended offensive sarcastic sounded like \) makes doubt read open mind , please excuse last comment robert rgasch nl oracle com
kiria kiria georgia su subject help reply kiria georgia su organization kiria keywords information echo lines 9 help ! maybe anybody know names conferences please help find information next keywords cardiology subjects 2 years leave sorry bad english ! adress kiria georgia su
ron roth rose com \( ron roth \) subject hypoglycemia x gated usenet rosemail gateway \( v1 70 \) organization rose media inc , toronto , ontario lines 31 anello fnal gov \( anthony anello \) writes \( anyone tell 40 diagnosed \( dangerous , e indicates possible problem \? one dr says , \( \( specialty \) says first negligent another blood \( test done also , good diet \( worked \) hypo \( \? tia \( \( \( anthony anello \( fermilab \( batavia , illinois hypoglycemia confirmed proper channels , might consider ther following 1 \) 25 day 2 \) chromium 400 day 3 \) increase protein foods supplements 4 \) avoid supplements foods high potassium , calcium , zinc 5 \) avoid c supplements excess 6 \) avoid honey foods high simple 7 \) enjoy , cereals , grains discuss health practitioner compatibility body chemistry safety ron rosereader 2 00 p003228 beer 's breakfast anymore rosemail 2 10 usenet rose media hamilton \( 416 \) 575 5363
kfl access digex com \( keith f lynch \) subject glutamate organization express access public access unix , greenbelt , maryland usa lines 10 nntp posting host access digex net article news bbn com sher bbn com \( lawrence sher \) writes n e j med editorial amino acid glutamate essential amino acid glutamate essential amino acid people survive quite well without ever eating keith lynch , kfl access digex com f p 2 , 3 2 q 1 x f f 3 2 q f f p ! 'q q p f w q p , \? x 8 1 8
jeffp vetmed wsu edu \( jeff parke \) subject lyme vaccine organization college veterinary medicine wsu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 13 kathleen richards \( ucrengr \) wrote time type 'd love reference paper ! thanks ! experimental lyme disease dogs produces arthritis persistant infection , journal infectious diseases , march 1993 , 167 651 664 jeff parke jeffp vetmed wsu edu also jeffp bitnet aol washington state university college veterinary medicine class 1994 , wa
king reasoning com \( dick king \) subject selective placebo organization reasoning systems , inc , palo alto , ca lines 20 nntp posting host drums reasoning com article 1993apr17 rose com ron roth rose com \( ron roth \) writes otoh , kidding , new england medical journal 1984 ran heading ninety percent diseases treatable drugs surgery , echoed several reports wonder mds amused alternative medicine , since 20 magic placebo effect would award alternative practitioners twice success rate conventional medicine 1 90 diseases thing 90 patients world one disease strikes 100 people , nine incurable diseases strikes one person , medical science cure 91 patients report 90 diseases therapy 2 disease would counted among 90 nothing better placebo known course mds ethically bound knowingly dispense placebos dk
jchen wind bellcore com \( jason chen \) subject glutamate nntp posting host wind bellcore com organization bellcore lines 13 article access digex net kfl access digex com \( keith f lynch \) writes article news bbn com sher bbn com \( lawrence sher \) writes n e j med editorial amino acid glutamate essential amino acid glutamate essential amino acid people survive quite well without ever eating contradiction essential sense body needs non essential sense body produce enough without supplement jason chen
carl sol1 gps caltech edu \( carl j lydick \) subject glutamate organization hst wide field planetary camera lines 15 distribution world reply carl sol1 gps caltech edu nntp posting host sol1 gps caltech edu article 1993apr18 walter bellcore com , jchen wind bellcore com \( jason chen \) writes contradiction essential sense body needs non essential sense body produce enough without supplement 're technical discussion amino acids , 's latter definition 's used almost universally carl j lydick internet carl sol1 gps caltech edu nsi hepnet sol1 carl disclaimer hey , understand vaxen vms 's get paid understanding astronomy purely amateur level \( \) unless i'm saying directly related vax vms , n't hold organization responsible related vax vms , try hold responsible , organization nothing
young serum kodak com \( rich young \) subject barbecued foods health risk originator young sasquatch nntp posting host sasquatch reply young serum kodak com organization clinical diagnostics division , eastman kodak company lines 24 article world std com rsilver world std com \( richard silver \) writes recent postings remind read risks associated barbecuing foods , namely carcinogens generated valid concern \? , function smoke elevated temperatures \? function cooking elements , wood charcoal vs lava rocks \? wish know thanks tufts university guide total nutrition stanley , ph , dean tufts university school nutrition , 1991 \( isbn 0 06 4 \) greatest hazard barbecuing cook use enough caution get burned people suggest barbecuing dangerous , smoke , absorbed meat , contains , , pure form , known cause cancer laboratory animals however , order experience results , people would consume unrealistically large quantities barbecued meat time rich young \( kodak 's opinions \)
young serum kodak com \( rich young \) subject problems nutrasweet \( aspartame \) originator young sasquatch nntp posting host sasquatch reply young serum kodak com organization clinical diagnostics division , eastman kodak company lines 76 article 1993apr17 uvm edu hbloom moose uvm edu \( heather \) writes nutrasweet synthetic sweetener couple thousand times sweeter sugar people concerned chemicals body produces degrades nutrasweet thought form formaldehyde known methanol degredation pathway body uses eliminate substances real issue whether levels methanol formaldehyde produced high enough cause significant damage , toxic living cells say consume september 1992 issue tufts university diet nutrition letter , three page article artificial follows excerpts deal specifically nutrasweet reproduced without permission controversy aspartame began six years ago england , group researchers found aspartame , marketed nutrasweet , appears stimulate appetite , presumably , eating calories long run person simply consumed sugar researchers asked group 95 people drink plain water , aspartame sweetened water , water , said overall felt drinking artificially sweetened beverage study received widespread media attention stirred good deal concern among artificial sweetener using public however , results questionable best , since researchers go measure whether increase appetite actually translate increase eating two necessarily go hand hand years followed , dozen studies examining effect aspartame appetite eating conducted reviewing every one , director laboratory study human behavior johns hopkins university , barbara rolls , ph , concluded consuming aspartame sweetened foods drinks associated increase amount food eaten afterward one artificial sweetener typically accused causing cancer aspartame certainly blamed host since introduction 1981 , government received thousands complaints accusing causing everything headaches nausea mood swings anxiety still , years careful scientific study conducted sweetener 's entering market failed confirm bring adverse health effects 's centers disease control \( government agency charged monitoring public health \) , american medical association 's council scientific affairs , food drug administration given aspartame , one studied food additives , clean bill health granted , fda set forth acceptable daily intake 50 milligrams aspartame per kilogram body weight exceed limit , however , 120 pound \( 55 kg \) woman would take 2 , 750 milligrams aspartame amount 15 cans aspartame sweetened soda pop , 14 cups , 22 cups yogurt , 55 six ounce aspartame containing hot cocoa , 175 pound \( 80 kg \) man would consume 4 , 000 milligrams sweetener amount 22 cans soda pop 32 cups yogurt go limit chart aspartame content selected foods omitted one small group people must certain stay away aspartame born rare metabolic disorder called , pku estimated one person every 12 , 000 15 , 000 unable properly essential amino acid aspartame called phenylalanine child consumes , builds body ultimately cause severe problems mental help people pku avoid substance , labels cans soda pop aspartame sweetened foods must carry warning contains phenylalanine rich young \( kodak 's opinions \)
dartmouth edu \( \) subject x posted internews 1 dartmouth edu organization dartmouth college lines 14 friend pronounced upper back always walks sits way concluded genetic disorder , something people correct e bad posture changed bit power \? dartmouth edu
jim zisfein factory com \( jim zisfein \) subject post polio syndrome information needed please ! ! ! distribution world organization invention factory 's bbs new york city , ny 212 274 8298v 32bis reply jim zisfein factory com \( jim zisfein \) lines 67 ks keith actrix gen nz \( keith stewart \) ks wife become interested acquaintance post polio syndrome ks apparently recognised new zealand different \( eg ks chest complaints \) treated separately information i'm sure condition recognised anywhere \( sense disease diagnostic criteria , clear boundaries diseases , unique features , etc \) , goes many neurologists agree post polio syndrome patients evidence motor neuron disease clinical examination , emg , muscle biopsy abnormalities mostly chronic \( due old polio \) evidence ongoing deterioration , patients complain declining strength endurance everyday motor tasks pain nearly universal feature doubtless contributes impaired performance examination shows muscle weakness atrophy emg shows evidence old denervation \( giant long duration motor unit action potentials \) evidence active denervation \( potentials \) biopsy also shows old denervation \( fiber type grouping \) evidence active denervation \( small , fibers dense oxidative enzyme \) curiously , little group atrophy post polio patients als als , evident deterioration one month next post polio , patients remarkably stable objective findings one year next course , patients polio develop genuine als , als common among polio survivors among people never polio cause post polio syndrome unknown little evidence post polio patients active polio virus destructive response virus antigen solid evidence patients post polio anything different happening motor unit \( horn cells , motor , junctions , muscle fibers \) patients old polio complaining deterioration groups emg biopsy findings reason acute changes chronic disease \( old polio \) unknown possibly spinal motor neurons \( huge numbers muscle fibers \) start load several years couple clinical features distinguish post polio syndrome patients patients old polio deny deterioration pps patients likely severe polio pps patients much likely complain pain also tend score higher depression scales tests take \( i'm sure disagree \) recovery severe polio abnormal loading muscles , tendons , , bones , joints , leads inflammatory conditions affecting structures increasing pain , chronic \( unchanging \) weakness , leads progressive motor performance adl perhaps biased personal experience never seen pps patient limited way pain believe pps patients rapid deterioration motor units non pps patients \( e , old polio similar severity without pps complaints \) slmr 2 1 e mail jim zisfein factory com \( jim zisfein \)
jim zisfein factory com \( jim zisfein \) subject post polio syndrome information needed please ! ! ! distribution world organization invention factory 's bbs new york city , ny 212 274 8298v 32bis reply jim zisfein factory com \( jim zisfein \) lines 15 dn nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \( david nye \) dn briefly , condition patients significant dn residual weakness childhood polio notice progression dn weakness get older one theory remaining motor dn neurons work harder die sooner theory true , muscle biopsy would show group atrophy \( evidence acute loss enlarged motor units \) n't instead , biopsy shows scattered , , fibers consistent load chronically overworked motor neurons neurons survive , expense increasingly muscle slmr 2 1 e mail jim zisfein factory com \( jim zisfein \)
dozonoff bu edu \( david ozonoff \) subject food related seizures \? lines 24 x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 sharon paulson \( paulson tab00 larc nasa gov \) wrote waiting thinking would good get large group possible see anyone experience kind thing know members medical community sometimes loathe admit importance diet foods play general health well anyway , guess , worried sick , would appreciate ideas anyone sorry wanted really get across going n't know anything specifically , one anecdote colleague mine child serious congenital disease , sclerosis along mental comes serious seizure disorder parents noticed one thing would precipitate seizure meal corn always wondered connection , dietary ingredients might precipitate seizures experiences would interesting hear netters david ozonoff , md , mph boston university school public health dozonoff med bu edu 80 east concord st , \( 617 \) 638 4620 boston ,
ruegg med unc edu \( robert g ruegg \) subject eugenics keywords gene pool wisdom virtue nntp posting host med unc edu organization unc ch school medicine lines 84 subject eugenics \( gordon banks \) writes probably within 50 years , new type eugenics possible maybe even sooner mapping human genome start work manipulation genome using genetic engineering , able insert whatever genes want breeding , , etc ethical question , \? two past problems eugenics 1 \) reducing gene pool 2 \) defining status inserting genes would seem reduce gene pool unless inserted genes later became may able crowd garbage genes may future become possible even , awareness need maintain gene pool would hopefully mean provisions made saving genes may come handy later evidently genes cell disease equatorial africa diabetes promoted survival conditions n't really know future may hold environment reduced wilderness disease survival capacity relatively domesticated animals comes mind , nuclear winter , ice age , meteor impact , new threats , famine , global warming , etc , etc , conceivable therefore , many genes possible available good strategy species survival course , status genetically altered individuals would start different anyone else 's could make philosopher kings great bodies long lives , would \( \) want give elevated status \? could romans kings without benefits eugenics race eventually realized dealt problems caused , , problem orwell introduced us notion might happen persons genetically altered tasks nothing new sun treated slaves way millennia 1984 see inherent problem gene therapy avoids least 2 problems humans always trouble virtue wisdom use power falls hands good ends time n't stopped race whole yet many civilizations died inability adapt environmental change however , also many civilizations died abuse power ones survived hopefully learned lesson fates others , survived making better choices turns came n't think gene altering power could n't wipe us face earth cause endless suffering nuclear power global warming whatever could may still , real issue issue wisdom virtue personally n't think man enough wisdom virtue pull next challenge better last , , may make , may n't , hope garbage people otherwise long discarded garbage genes pull us believe real problem probably always man needs accept input great spirit god overcome lacks area knowing use power men , believe men may , listen obey still small voice god hearts way begin recieve wisdom virtue needed escape problems consequent poor choices peoples died many reasons societies failed accept enough input god safely use power developed destroyed , often others process self evident ones survive today either accepted enough input spirit use powers wisely enough avoid survive mistakes thus far , else n't enough power long enough summary , would say question whether use new technology really ancient one answer , ways hard , ways easy , ancient answer n't power , spirit sorry long post got carried away bob \( ruegg med unc edu \)
lady uhunix uhcc hawaii edu \( lee lady \) subject science methodology \( homeopathy tradition \? \) summary subjective judgement reliable statistics \? organization university hawaii \( mathematics dept \) expires mon , 10 may 1993 10 00 00 gmt lines 76 article saltillo cs utexas edu turpin cs utexas edu \( russell turpin \) writes imply treatments ineffective imply rely faulty methodology reasoning incapable discovering treatments effective \) start , methodology form reasoning infallible 's question much certainty willing pay given context insistence much rigor science completely makes progress impossible \( expenditure sufficiently large sums money amounts time sometimes overcome \) hand , little rigor much lost basing work results eventually turn false morass studies contradicting studies outsiders start saying people call science \? \( opinion , 's worth , one sees phenomena happening simultaneously parts psychology \) subjective judgement required decide level rigor appropriate particular investigation n't believe ever possible banish subjective judgement science second point , though , highly capable people often make extremely reliable judgements scientific validity even using methodology considered inadequate usual standards think true many scientists think true many approach discipline way generally recognized scientific within mathematics , think several examples , especially twentieth century one conspicuous case , famous many stated prove \( later mathematicians prove , course \) think good scientist , empirical investigation often much matter determining true 's matter convincing people \( people proposed lots incompatible definitions science , think ability objectively convince others validity one 's results essential element one necessarily every step scientific process , think one moving toward goal one science \) person scientist quite good seems successful , think judgements also worthy respect assertions well worth investigation article hd news hawaii edu wrote namely , really justification belief science superior path truth non scientific approaches \? admittedly , question well posed considerable amount effort serious scholarly investigation suggested would required simply formulate appropriately specific question try answer science thinking question actual science currently practiced last decade twentieth century certainly n't thinking idealized science mere use reason observation one thing mind suggestion question whether many cases subjective judgements skilled experienced practitioners might reliable statistical studies since russell turpin seems much familiar study scientific methodology , perhaps tell us existing research related question arguments behaviorists cognitivists , psychology seems less like science collection competing religious sects lady uhunix uhcc hawaii edu lady uhunix bitnet
ruegg med unc edu \( robert g ruegg \) subject eugenics summary errata keywords gene pool wisdom virtue nntp posting host med unc edu organization unc ch school medicine lines 7 thanks tarl neustaedter kindly letting know reference prior post orwell 1984 probably huxley brave new world sorry , al bob \( ruegg med unc edu \)
feenix metronet com \( marc grant \) subject adult chicken pox organization tx metronet communications services , dallas tx distribution usa lines 13 35 recovering case chicken pox contracted 5 year old daughter quite little puppies point longer infectious \? physician 's office says true \? medications promote healing pox \? speed healing \? please e mail replies , thanks advance marc grant internet feenix metronet com pob amateur radio station richardson , tx voice fax 214 231
organization university illinois chicago , academic computer center u19250 uicvm uic edu subject foreskin troubles lines 3 generally called usually due inflammation , ca n retracted physician 's rather one see gp , complicated cases ,
romdas uclink berkeley edu \( ella baff \) subject selective placebo organization university california , berkeley lines 37 distribution world nntp posting host uclink berkeley edu ron roth recommends hypoglycemia confirmed proper channels , might consider ther following diet omitted 1 \) ron consider proper channels sounds suspiciously like blood chemistry glucose tolerance like suddenly chemistry exists \? know perfectly well person saved needless trouble expense simple muscle testing hair analysis diagnose confirm aberrant physiology maybe 's proper channels 2 \) able understand dick king 's post 90 diseases thing 90 patients reply inability critically evaluate statistic cited new england journal medicine figure implied remark course mds ethically bound knowingly dispense placebos \? 3 \) ron ever thought never post misc health insist instead upon insinuating untrained , non medical , often delusional notions health disease forum \? suspect apparent anger toward mds medicine may underlying problem' course confirm surrogate muscle testing one patients ponder theory see one previously weak muscles strengthens reservations unique methods diagnosis \? oh forgot said earlier post neither concerned whether study designs meet anyone else 's criteria acceptance john badanes , dc , ca romdas uclink berkeley edu ideas
civil ubc ca \( thomas wong \) subject image processing software pc organization dept civil engineering , u b c , vancouver , b c , canada lines 27 distribution world nntp posting host sam civil ubc ca posting following brother please post replies send email address end message thank supervisor looking image analysis software ms dos need something measure lengths areas sometime future , may expand , etc 've found lots ads info jandel scientific products java able find competing products would appreciate comments products suggestions comments products consider thanks donald ubc ca
robin ntmtv com \( robin \) subject critique pressure point massager originator robin nntp posting host reply robin ntmtv com \( robin \) organization northern telecom inc , mountain view , ca distribution na lines 141 promised , personal critique pressure point massager recently bought self care catalog pleased results catalog description follows pressure point massager aggressive physical massager actually tension muscles much like professional powerful motor drives two counter rotating thumbs move one inch orbits releasing tension neck , back , legs arms pressure point massager 109 order receive catalog , call \( 24 hours , 7 days \) 1 800 345 3371 fax 1 800 345 note ordered massager , item number different , price 179 , 109 received , glanced thru newer catalog enclosed see anything different first one quite annoyed see 70 difference price called , rep said switched manufacturers , although looks works exactly told go ahead return first one order cheaper one , using price difference reason return fact , since newer ones might take ship factory \( received one 3 days \) , told could use one already new one arrives , return old one reasonable people long term neck , shoulder back pain \( building , would described structurally unsound \) \) stretches exercises help , problem never really goes away , whatever reason , exercise \( illness , enough time , lazy , etc \) , muscles become quite stiff painful , thus , prone strain even exercise , sometimes require physical therapy get back track , 1st requires doctor visit get prescription p tension neck , released , eventually causes headache \( sometimes confused sinus headache \) left eye physical therapist massaged neck , sub muscles particular \( 2 areas near base skull \) , headache usually within day , although hurts like hell massaged ordered device seemed exactly wishing someone would invent machine would massage , , neck sub muscles like physical therapist done past , could use doctor visit inconvenient p week later would needed use could get middle night use , necessary using week , love base unit 14 x 9 rectangle , 3 3 4 high , handles side , plugs average outlet two metal thumbs 1 1 2 diameter 2 1 2 base thumbs covered gray cloth non removable located toward one end , rather centered \( see figure \) move either clockwise counter clockwise directions , depending side switch pushed , quiet used either side instance , thumbs positioned base neck top neck , depending direction approach neck head , user varies amount pressure used \( laying \) allowing part full weight head neck rest thumbs handles also used sitting standing , applying pressure arms wrists since wrists also impaired \( i'm typing extended period time \) , n't someone living apply , laying works well back , sit high backed kitchen chair , position massager behind whatever point want massaged , lean back lightly \( lightly \) pressure leaning back holds place want massage entire spine , simply move inches whenever feel like back , machine far superior use commonly used home made massager 2 tennis balls taped together \( balls , position \( wall door \) spine move body \) tennis balls better nothing , difficult use long , especially quads good shape , long hair gets \( painfully \) way n't pin first far i'm concerned , easier something like use , likely 'll use multiple considerations hassles , i'm likely bother machine helped headaches , range motion neck back greatly increased first time used neck sub muscles , however , pressed hard , resulted tender , almost bruised area days laid 3 days applied ice , helped , gradual applying pressure point , pain sub area minimal massaged also learned use light pressure lower back , vulnerable point also painful knots tension shoulder blades , although , , took days \( minutes time \) really work highly recommend product similar problems , although cannot vouch durability \( seems pretty sturdy \) , since 've short time plan use ease tension , also loosen exercising \( maybe , \) ill recently able exercise much weeks , timely 1st product 've ordered company recently became aware thru co worker catalog states business since 1976 contains quite health care products , appear expensive average health care catalog products , also appear much higher quality thought put actually definitely step ones 've seen dr health care catalog mature wisdom i'm 37 , ended type mailing lists \( big surprise \) \) consider many products rip offs , particularly targeted toward elderly , dubious health benefits apologize length , 's kind info would like know ordering something thru mail robin northern telecom , mountain view , ca internet robin ntmtv com uucp portal ! ntmtv ! robin
cash convex com \( peter cash \) subject need advice doctor patient relationship problem nntp posting host zeppelin convex com organization x disclaimer message written user convex computer corp opinions expressed user necessarily convex lines 16 article athena cs uga edu mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) writes sounds though heart 's right place , adept expressing received meant profound apology apologies delivered overworked shy people often come like heart \? jerk n't heart , beats 're apologizing book , behavior like , inexcusable , beyond pale 's overworked , 's 's busy bucks likely , likes push women around 'd fire b , get another doctor die welt ist alles , ist peter cash \( apologies ludwig wittgenstein \) cash convex com
daniel prince f129 n102 z1 calcom socal com \( daniel prince \) subject placebo effects lines 17 know placebo effect patient feels better even gets better belief medicine doctor administering also anti placebo effect patient dislikes doctors medicine therefore n't get better feel better spite medicine \? effect doctor believes strongly medicine sees improvement none sees improvement \? , effect called \? reverse effect doctor n't believe medicine sees less improvement \? would effect called \? effects ever studied \? common effects \? thank advance replies information valuable dis information much common
com au \( gavin anderson \) subject help looking medical journal article cervical pain lines 37 organization colonial mutual life australia x newsreader ftpnuz \( dos \) v1 0 lines 24 hi , sure post message , please contact i'm way mark 19 3 93 wife went general practitioner \( doctor \) mentioned article medical journal great interest us read previous three months unable find article injury cervical pain mentions use mri \( magnetic resonance imagery \) machine diagnostic tool work neurosurgeon cervical pain article likely australian medical journal much want obtain name article , journal author case matches wife would much appreciate anyone 's help matter via email preferably gavin anderson email com au analyst programmer phone 61 3 607 colonial mutual life aust \( \) fax 61 3 283 1095 people never consciously discover antipodes gavin anderson email com au analyst programmer phone 61 3 607 colonial mutual life aust \( \) fax 61 3 283 1095
dhartung chinet chi il us \( dan hartung \) subject andromeda strain summary well hold \? organization chinet public access unix lines 28 opportunity watch flick e 15 years since saw last interested technology demonstrated film handling infectious diseases \( similar toxic substances \) clearly faked lot computer robotic technology certainly time made science fiction , let alone idea space quite coincidentally actually got wanted see movie watched segment otherwise awful 'd \? dealing disease researcher cdc 's top lab description elaborate security measures taken building never cracked speak man nature \( short deliberate bombing air , perhaps \) researchers used similar film i'm curious people think film short silly facility technically feasible today \? far plot , structure life know , 's whole argument rec arts sf tech something next waco update ohio prison update bosnia update russian update abortion update congressional update standoff news network news , standoff , day daniel hartung dhartung chinet chinet com ask rotaract
ls8139 albnyvms bitnet \( larry silverberg \) subject h e l p e desperate vd reply ls8139 albnyvms bitnet organization university albany , suny lines 17 probably buy tools solution somewhere know injection may also want buy 'self something like friend diabetic load , put plastic case set spring automatically push needle skin depress live new york , 's saturday night tonight 's special guest lawrence silverberg state university new york albany aka ls8139 gemini albany edu
halcyon com \( mark \) subject barbecued foods health risk organization northwest nexus inc lines 5 nntp posting host nwfocus wa com also , n't forget 's better health enjoy steak resent sprouts mark hermes associates 1 206 632 \( voice \) halcyon com box , seattle wa 1 206 632 1738 \( fax \)
sandy pt cyanamid com \( sandy silverman \) subject barbecued foods health risk reply halcyon com 's message 19 apr 1993 01 07 22 0700 nntp posting host pt cyanamid com organization american cyanamid company nwfocus wa com lines 11 reading popular , scientific , literature , think burned fat problem probably real small compared kinds risks \( type problem also occurs stove top pan \) one possible remedy read take vitamin c meal barbecue \( bacon , e g \) may make sense c could counteract adverse affect chemicals question bon ! sanford silverman opinions expressed american cyanamid sandy pt cyanamid com , pt cyanamid com yeast best
org \( gene c miller \) subject recurrent miscarriage organization org lines 17 following series , wife given transfusion white cells \( theory understand kind immune blocking prevents body attacking pregnancy normally would foreign body blocking deficient , body intruder , resulting miscarriage white cells apparently enhance blocking capability \) following transfusion , successfully carried next pregnancy term , jake active 9 month old cannot wait walk 're thinking another child , one \( including supervised first transfusion \) really seems know whether transfusion process needs repeated successive anyone net land experience \? thanks gene \( jane jake \) p 've also posted misc kids
harvey oasys dt navy mil \( betty harvey \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? reply harvey oasys dt navy mil \( betty harvey \) organization carderock division , nswc , bethesda , md lines 30 rec food cooking , packer delphi gsfc nasa gov \( charles packer \) writes thing msg \( monosodium glutamate \) sensitivity \? saw ny times sunday scientists testified fda advisory panel complaints msg sensitivity superstition anybody experience contrary \? know msg sensitivity eat foods msg get thirsty hands swell get terrible itchy rash first experienced problem worked close ate chinese food almost everyday lunch ca n't tolerate msg notice immediately eaten try avoid msg completely interesting fact though three children started experiencing exact rash hands could n't understand n't msg cooking ask msg eat chinese \( still love \) investigation knew one favorite foods one main ingredients flavor packets msg look labels would surprised places find msg betty harvey harvey oasys dt navy mil david taylor model basin adp , networking communication assessment carderock division branch naval surface warfare code 1221 center bethesda , md 20084 5000 , cd , nswc \( 301 \) 227 fax \( 301 \) 227
sasghm theseus unx sas com \( gary merrill \) subject science methodology \( homeopathy tradition \? \) originator sasghm theseus unx sas com nntp posting host theseus unx sas com organization sas institute inc lines 45 article 1993apr16 cs rochester edu , fulk cs rochester edu \( mark fulk \) writes i'm familiar history experiment , although , arguably , brief , pretty detailed account , try 's philosophy natural science think enough contemporaries found result surprising 's 'd quibble 'd like know toricelli 's reasons experiment post hoc constructed reasons , thoughts head considered problem may smacks bit ideology supposition toricelli 's subsequent descriptions reasoning gets dangerously close unfalsifiable view history methodology science deny subsequent reports experimenters reliable descriptions real reasons impossible know much toricelli 's thoughts 's bad one root bernstein 's services science gone rooting pasteur 's fleming 's \( people 's \) notes , discovered surprising clues motivations pasteur never publicly admitted plan create mirror image life , dreams right notebooks \( finally public many years \) , ready anyone read friends often ridiculous reasons pursuing results one best came mad colleague poorly written claim \( disproved claim \) course , toricelli 's case may example fantasy motivates experiment , turns right end point type case rarity fact , going point pasteur yet another rather common example particularly studies spontaneous generation fermentation readily concede ridiculous reasons play important role scientists spend time one confuse motivation methodology suppose ridiculous reasons provide impetus majority cases based relatively infrequent anecdotal evidence gary h merrill principal systems developer , c compiler development sas institute inc sas campus dr cary , nc 27513 \( 919 \) 677 8000 sasghm theseus unx sas com ! mcnc ! sas ! sasghm
cbnewsb cb att com \( scott brenner \) subject 's difference \? organization distribution usa lines 30 wife process selecting pediatrician first child \( due june 15th \) interviewed young doctor last week impressed however , discovered actually medical doctor \( \) rather doctor \( \) 's difference \? believe pediatrician went many years n't seem different doctor 've seen years dictionary says medical therapy emphasizes manipulative techniques correcting abnormalities thought cause disease inhibit recovery jeez , sounds like chiropractic remember getting shots medicine pediatrician , n't remember manipulative techniques perhaps someone could enlighten real , practical difference also , i'm interesting hearing opinions choosing pediatrician follows one medical philosophy readers sci med please respond directly attmail com read group regularly probably wo n't see response post sorry cross posting , i'm hoping 's expertise h v n n k c e scott brenner consumer communications services attmail com ridge , new jersey
vms macc wisc edu subject barbecued foods health risk organization university wisconsin academic computing center distribution world lines 88 article cup portal com , mmm cup portal com \( mark robert thorson \) writes reminds last graham kerr cooking show saw today smoked meat big pot ! used strange technique 'd never seen took big pot lid , placed tray made aluminum foil tray size shape typical coffee table ash tray , made sheet foil around edges tray , placed couple brown sugar , similar quantity brown rice \( said rice \) , contents two earl grey tea , top placed ordinary aluminum basket type steamer , two chicken breasts lid put , whole assembly went high heat 10 12 minutes later , removed looked like smoked chicken breasts surprises concerns 1 \) wood chips smoke flavor come \? 2 \) 5 10 years ago , remember hearing carmel color \( obtained sugar common coloring flavoring agent \) found carcinogenic believe injected skin rats , something results conclusive , color would legal u , yet still used initial research result found incorrect , \? 3 \) 5 10 years ago , remember earl grey tea implicated carcinogenic , contains oil \( extract skin type citrus fruit \) anyone know whatever happened story \? carcinogenic , earl grey tea could additive , yet apparently continues wrt natural wood smoke \( 've smoking duck right , happens \) , 've noticed heavily smoked food item unpleasant taste eaten directly smoker smoke recently stopped flowing find best taste using dry wood chips , getting lots smoke right beginning cooking process , slowly hours hours without adding additional wood chips theory unpleasant molecules low molecular weight stuff , like , flavor molecules sort larger molecule similar tar long barbeque time initial intensive smoke drives low molecular weight stuff , leaving flavor behind anyone know theory correct \? also remember hearing combustion products fat dripping charcoal burning carcinogenic reason , covers product soot unpleasant , grill non like directly hot coals stuff like duck indirect heat long rectangular weber , put coals one end meat end fat drops directly floor meat , next time use barbeque make fire end burn fat help ignite coals yet another reason 've heard smoke barbeque meat smoked cured meat , like pork bacon , contains , carcinogenic i'm pretty sure claim actually standing , n't know others amusing incident recall duncan hines scandal , discovered people make duncan hines cake mix putting lot \( edb \) cake mix suppress known carcinogenic guy represented company press conference defended saying risk eating duncan hines products every day year would equal cancer risk eating two charcoal steaks great analogy ! first heard , immediate reaction make standard unit ! one charcoal steak would equivalent 0 5 duncans ! n't understand assumption something found carcinogenic would legal u think naturally occuring substances \( excluding controlled substances \) pretty much unregulated terms use food , food additives consumption 's chemists concoct \( sp \? \) ingredient falls fda regulations otherwise , really looked closely would find reason ban almost everything world suppose 's legal consume tobacco products \( probably banned \) \? dave allen space science engr ctr uw madison
turpin cs utexas edu \( russell turpin \) subject placebo effects organization cs dept , university texas austin lines 39 nntp posting host im4u cs utexas edu summary yes , researcher bias great problem article calcom socal com daniel prince f129 n102 z1 calcom socal com \( daniel prince \) writes effect doctor believes strongly medicine sees improvement none sees improvement \? , effect called \? reverse effect doctor n't believe medicine sees less improvement \? would effect called \? effects ever studied \? common effects \? thank advance replies effects real concern conducting studies new treatments researchers try limit kind effect performing studies blind various ways subjects study know whether receive placebo test treatment , e , whether control group test group administering treatment know subjects receive placebo test treatment evaluating individual results know subjects receive placebo test treatment obviously , point data analyzed , one differentiate test group control group analysis quasi public researcher describes presents data based others verify worth noting biological studies subjects animals , mice , many cases skewed results performed study blind considered important make mice ignorant already , though important respects except one tested , control test groups treated alike russell
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject eye dominance reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 16 article c5e2g7 877 world std com rsilver world std com \( richard silver \) writes right eye dominance \( eyedness \? \) overall right handedness population \? mean people require less lens corrections one eye \? , kinds percentages attached \? eye dominance handedness \( usually side \) nothing refractive error , however gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject surgery damaged tendons median nerve reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 27 article wesley src honeywell com src honeywell com writes thought explore net wisdom following questions better way control pain surgeon suggested \? long pain last \? pain recur future \? one answer gets sympathetic , could last forever hope n't damaged \( partially cut \) tendons heal completely finger strength regained \? long take complete healing process \? sometimes sometimes n't best job hope know months gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
paulson tab00 larc nasa gov \( sharon paulson \) subject food related seizures \? organization nasa langley research center , hampton va , usa lines 52 1993apr17 spdcc com nntp posting host cmb00 larc nasa gov reply dyer spdcc com 's message sat , 17 apr 1993 18 43 05 gmt article 1993apr17 spdcc com dyer spdcc com \( steve dyer \) writes newsgroups sci med path news larc nasa gov ! primate wisc edu ! zaphod mps ohio state edu ! uwm edu ! cs utexas edu ! uunet ! think com ! hsdndev ! spdcc ! dyer dyer spdcc com \( steve dyer \) organization p dyer computer consulting , cambridge references uupcb factory com cup portal com date sat , 17 apr 1993 18 43 05 gmt lines 18 article cup portal com mmm cup portal com \( mark robert thorson \) writes remember hearing years back new therapy involved aggressively eliminating artificial coloring flavoring diet theory backed interesting anecdotal results certain people way sensitive chemicals people n't remember connection made seizures , certainly could n't hurt try natural diet yeah , feingold diet load crap children diagnosed add placed diet show improvement intellectual social skills , fact continue decline course , parents enthusiastic approach lap expense children 's development much value interesting anecdotal results people believe anything want steve dyer dyer ursa major spdcc com aka ima , harvard , rayssd , linus , m2c ! spdcc ! dyer thanks interest problem mine n't think reaction sugar junk food per se since never shown signs changes behavior response food always calm dare say , neat , smart kid fact happened eating two sugar coated cereals made kellog 's makes think might allergic reaction something coating cereals four us immediate family , shows least signs hay fever , running nose , itchy eyes , etc lot allergies family history including weird food allergies nuts , mushrooms anyway , next trip endocrinologist check body chemistry far , sugar coated cereals seizures either every day goes without one makes sigh relief thanks sharon paulson paulson larc nasa gov nasa langley research center bldg , mailstop 156 work \( 804 \) 864 2241 hampton , virginia 23681 home \( 804 \) 596 2362
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject organ donation transplantation fact sheet reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 26 article 1993apr13 641 lmpsbbs comm mot com dougb ecs comm mot com writes wife cannot donate blood malarial region past three years fact , tried bone marrow typed would n't even ! \? fda , believe rules say blood blood products donations anyone malarial area 3 years donor thailand trip blood bank disappointed find could n't use 3 years secretary state asked wanted donate organs said figured one would want given history correct \? necessarily rules may apply organ donation blood donation fact , i'm sure n't gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject mississippi river water catfish safe \? reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) distribution usa organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 18 article 1993apr12 zeus calpoly edu dfield flute calpoly edu \( infospunj \( dan field \) \) writes 've invited spend couple weeks summer mississippi journey partners want live river water catfish along route concerns pollution health risks \? 'd purify river water first i'm sure practical mississippi 'd better check health agencies along way see toxic chemicals river , filtered killed , may need activated charcoal means purify chemicals better sorry obviously , drinking river without processing likely make sick bacteria parasites gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject ob gyn residency reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 28 article 1993apr12 cnsvax uwec edu nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \( david nye \) writes believe illegal residency discriminate fmgs true \? know wo n't even interview fmgs programs discriminate , given fmg equally qualified american take american rights actually \? matter us citizens \( \) \? good luck fmgs bad luck best residents fmgs also , worst turns , worst fmgs often us citizens studied shore medical schools 5 residents fired incompetence 12 years 've department , fmgs 3 us citizens studied , 1 us citizen trained soviet union , one unfortunately , practicing medicine somewhere , 3 neurology picked programs , 1 psychiatry , emergency medicine gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
cash convex com \( peter cash \) subject liver spots nntp posting host zeppelin convex com organization x disclaimer message written user convex computer corp opinions expressed user necessarily convex lines 8 causes little brown spots older people 's hands \? called liver spots 're sort liver colored , indicate actual liver dysfunction \? die welt ist alles , ist peter cash \( apologies ludwig wittgenstein \) cash convex com
tps com \( thomas w day \) subject andromeda strain summary well hold \? organization pacing systems lines 43 article chinet chi il us dhartung chinet chi il us \( dan hartung \) writes opportunity watch flick e 15 years since saw last wow , wwii channel something wwii \? interested technology demonstrated film handling infectious diseases \( similar toxic substances \) clearly faked lot computer robotic technology certainly time made science fiction , let alone idea space graphics capabilities computers faked movie audiences ability patience numbers book realistic respect respects , actually robotics still range , impossible quite coincidentally actually got wanted see movie watched segment otherwise awful 'd \? dealing disease researcher cdc 's top lab description elaborate security measures taken building never cracked speak man nature \( short deliberate bombing air , perhaps \) researchers used similar film sf \( always wondered escapes classification \) usually ahead science prediction precaution nasa 's processes supposedly taken prevent sf story disasters mean , nasa scientists often sf readers \( sometimes writers \) felt pre warned reading i'm curious people think film short silly facility technically feasible today \? think film still holds among best sf films , n't saying whole lot far plot , structure life know , 's whole argument rec arts sf tech something yep
athena mit edu subject \( eugenics \) organization massachusetts institute technology lines 25 distribution world nntp posting host w20 575 56 mit edu probably within 50 years , possible disassemble assemble bodies molecular level flawless cosmetic surgery possible , flawless cosmetic like store prices shelf priced bar coded goods head , catch errors make store 's favor safeway \? like mentally edit spell check responses questions posed phone caller selling vacation time share options \? absolutely flame required lack brain sic memes basic units culture , opposed genes units genetics well least 're educated , seems give credit credit due richard \( \? \) \( meme meme invented \) zone
encore com \( steve \) subject hernia organization encore computer corporation nntp posting host condor encore com lines 20 bit year ago , hernia right groin discovered produced dull pain area hernia repaired using least intrusive \( \? \) method plug patch doctor considered procedure success months later pain returned doctor said could find nothing wrong area hernia repair pain occurs often gp could n't identify specific problem performed original procedure says yes new hernia area said cut area repair time question net method determine fact hernia pain something else \? steve
davpa ida liu se \( david partain \) subject candida albicans \? originator davpa organization department computer science , university linkoping lines 11 someone know recently diagnosed candida albicans , disease find information apparently something body 's production yeast time highly allergic yeast anyone tell \? thanks david partain davpa ida liu se ida , university link work phone 46 \( 013 \) 28 26 08 581 83 link , sweden telefax 46 \( 013 \) 28 26 66
uucp \( jamie \) subject eye dominance organization bellcore , , nj lines 14 article pitt uucp geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) writes article c5e2g7 877 world std com rsilver world std com \( richard silver \) writes right eye dominance \( eyedness \? \) overall right handedness population \? mean people require less lens corrections one eye \? , kinds percentages attached \? eye dominance handedness \( usually side \) nothing refractive error , however recall reading seeing former baseball star chris hitting abilities \( part \) attributed combination left handedness right eye dominance
donald mackie donald mackie med umich edu subject barbecued foods health risk organization um anesthesiology lines 13 distribution world nntp posting host 141 214 86 38 x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d9 x xxdate mon , 19 apr 93 20 12 06 gmt article 1993apr18 kodak com rich young , young serum kodak com writes stuff deleted consume unrealistically large quantities barbecued meat time confess one ambitions matter much eat , still seems realistic mackie opinion
donald mackie donald mackie med umich edu subject quality control medicine organization um anesthesiology lines 19 distribution world nntp posting host 141 214 86 38 x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d9 x xxdate mon , 19 apr 93 20 19 29 gmt article blue cis pitt edu kenneth gilbert , kxgst1 pitt edu writes situation qa activities routine part every hospital 's administrative function required agencies even entire publications devoted qa issues indeed spend 60 time dealing quality stuff hot number two journals worth looking quality review bulletin pub joint commission organizations , one renaissance boulevard , terrace , il quality health care publishing group , box , , mackie opinions um anesthesiology disavow
turpin cs utexas edu \( russell turpin \) subject science methodology \( homeopathy tradition \? \) organization cs dept , university texas austin lines 123 distribution inet nntp posting host im4u cs utexas edu summary response lee lady keywords science errors turpin nlp think part problem proposed definition science intended interpreted broadly lee lady interpreted fairly narrowly definition science investigation empirical avoids mistakes reasoning methodology discovered previous work lee lady writes n't think science defined way activities lead really important science namely thinking informal exploration recognized scientific work unless one thinking informal exploration mistake , fall definition hope one would consider speculation , thinking , informal exploration unscientific article news hawaii edu lady uhunix uhcc hawaii edu \( lee lady \) writes seriously , i'm sure whether misjudged , one respect still major problem , though , insistence science mainly avoiding mistakes think talking cross purposes clear kind definition proposed taken describing science mainly consider , example , definition invertebrates animals lacking backbone fairly tells , hardly tells invertebrates one read definition still know 95 animal species invertebrates , invertebrates possess remarkably broad range form , groups insects ubiquitous , etc short , knowing definition invertebrates tell one mainly misunderstanding fault give sufficient context people understand proposed definition okay , let 's see agree first , degrees certainty might appropriate , instance , demand carefully controlled trials accept absolute scientific truth \( extent thing \) effectiveness certain treatment hand , highly favorable clinical experience , even uncontrolled , adequate justify preliminary judgement treatment useful secondly , makes sense tolerant standards evidence pronounced effect one marginal agree counts example second , would take cases curing convince treatment effective , despite lack controls first , think useful talk absolute scientific truth think useful talk kinds evidence various claims kinds evidence particular fields past proven faulty reliable latter obviously matter degree , field , practitioners try discover relevance different kinds evidence one primary mistakes marks advocacy idea psuedo science advocacy lacks sense proportion regarding kinds evidence related proposed claim , kinds evidence actually relevant , historical reasons field certain kinds evidence given weight others perfectly alright speculate read quite refereed papers speculated left right authors careful identify notions speculative , list little evidence presently available , describe research could proceed either put notion firm footing uncover problems often distinguishes whether paper sort passes muster author sets context way future work \( area many proponents speculative ideas fail \) folks sci psychology hundred one excuses make simple test claim elaborate outcome study satisfactory study sort nlp practitioners , many make barely marginal living practice , ill afford \( also plain interested , whole idea seems frivolous since 're part scientific establishment , tangible rewards gain scientific acceptance \) think lot scientists steer away things deserving garner proponents practice see value careful investigation practice , sets alarms ringing many minds unfortunate , undoubtedly intersection things worth investigating things advocated seem careless unreasonable advocacy hand , understand many scientists would soon select directions research gordon banks pointed , one wants become generation 's one academic sci psychology said would completely unscientific test phobia cure since n't described scientific journal think absurd actually , least one fairly careful academic study done \( favorable results \) , 's apparently acceptable 's doctoral dissertation published refereed journal wonder results published field , dissertation results typically summarized papers submitted journals often papers accepted publication dissertation finished \( certainly one 's defense \) finally , hope lee lady forgive commenting either nlp discussion sci psychology know little either nothing offer russell
proberts informix com \( paul roberts \) subject many mris \? organization informix software , inc lines 11 article 1993apr12 kestrel edu king reasoning com \( dick king \) writes recall reading somewhere , youth , science book , changes n't normally affect chemistry , consumption heavy water would fatal , seeds watered heavy water sprout anyone know \? also heard always thought might make good someone poisoned heavy water would n't show chemical test
venus su subject starvation organization institute theoretical experimental lines 29 nntp posting host venus su interested investigations starvation improving health young russian highest medical education work biological field would like work problem anybody send adresses hospitals medical centers scientific problems human starvation health investigated \? also would like set scientific contacts colleagues deals investigations field would appreciated anyone reply pls , contact post , russia , moscow region , , p box 46 , n e mail venus su thank advance ,
wcsbeau alfred carleton ca \( opirg \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? keywords msg , glu organization carleton university , ottawa , canada lines 143 article 1993apr17 spdcc com dyer spdcc com \( steve dyer \) writes article 1993apr17 cunews carleton ca wcsbeau alfred carleton ca \( opirg \) writes hard info provided msg making people ill 's point , n't look \? check medical dictionary cite doctor mentioned earlier thread \? 's peer reviewed studies addressing effects msg people , 're looking animal models ca n't walk away start ranting doom documented deleterious health effects demonstrated humans note would n't argument statement like noting animal administration pro following blah , blah , must careful use humans precisely said among others , see olney 's excitotoxic food relevance animal studies human safety \( 1982 \) vol 6 455 462 i'm sure would love hear arguments tests done monkeys , well never seen study mode administration intra ventricular glu asp administered orally studies used iv sc intra ventricular normal admin method food tox studies , obvious reasons must read peer reviewed works referred would never come brain injection bunk certainly know , studies glutamate involve food science whose talking food science \? comment supposed mean \? , brain research , nature , progress brain research fine food science journals \) pardon , getting \? read journals \? done thorough literature search \? , point us studies humans , please i'm familiar literature , 've never seen relate olney 's work animals effects glutamate neurons would know olney casually referred chinese restaurant syndrome articles n't point us studies \? maybe exchange could productive point exceeding window course , 're amino acids note people pku cannot tolerate phenylalanine well , actually , tolerate phenylalanine 's essential amino acid try get little healthy without producing dangerous levels phenylalanine blood 're unable olney 's research compared infant human diets specifically , amount freely available glu mother 's milk versus commercial baby foods , vs typical lunch items standard american diet packaged soup mixes found one could exceed projected safety margin infant humans least four fold single meal processed foods mother 's milk well effective dose goodness , i'm saying 's good feed infants lot glutamate supplemented foods 's projected safety margin construct derived animal models given , prove anything like 're talking prudent policy infant nutrition , yet 're misrepresenting received wisdom said anything \? question orally administered doses msg capable destroying nearly neurons nucleus median areas responsible production hormones critical normal function normal development organism humans , pray tell , think happen area brain necessary normal rhythm release missing \? trying say humans need pituitary , , , part brain responsible controlling \( albeit indirectly \) testosterone \? expect anyone studies \? 's unethical sacrifice humans check effects chronic , acute , etc doses compounds brain tissue humans food industry knows 's animal model used medicine psych 're talking straight sensitivity , would useful define term plenty studies showing link attitude physiology suspect may arguing separate things adult \( \) , late occuring childhood ingestion implication adults \( \) certainly doses adults considerably larger young , glu asp , copious increased presence modern processed foods \( jointly \) , hidden presence , necessitates extreme caution would anyone want eat compounds shown markedly system adults \? main point blood levels attained , oral doses would likely greater sc \? \? would interested seeing provide peer reviewed non food industry funded citations articles disputing msg effects whatsoever mean asserting 're intellectually dishonest \( plain confused \) , 're reports necessarily anything olney 's reports would argue potential problems human infants , 's say says anything whatsoever use msg foods , provide studies humans indicate deleterious effects \( obvious reasons \) says nothing msg 's phenomenon chinese restaurant syndrome says nothing frequent inability replicate anecdotal reports msg sensitivity lab olney 's work provides causal mechanism terry , martin shown orally administered msg causes changes normal hormone adults glu also found induce immediate persistant gh , induce rapid transient release prolactin adults chronically exposed msg gh responsible control growth development , also converts glucose could cause headaches \? n't know dyer ursa major spdcc com hmm com surprised \? dianne murray wcsbeau ccs carleton ca probably one dumber remarks 've made read olney 's review article , especially remarks already quoted earlier post , would know may ask exactly computer consulting \? \)
chevron com \( beverly zalan \) subject frequent nosebleeds reply chevron com \( beverly zalan \) organization chevron lines 24 x newsreader intercon tcp connect ii 1 1 article 1993apr17 28921 freenet carleton ca , ab961 freenet carleton ca \( robert allison \) writes 15 25 nosebleeds week , result genetic predisposition weak walls \( weber \) fortunately , short duration anyone know method reduce frequency \? younger brothers tried skin transplant \( thigh nose lining \) , nosebleeds soon returned 've seen reference herb called rutin supposed help , 'd like hear experiences , techniques 6 year son plagued lots vaseline nose night seems keep control let get , 'll recur days ! also allergies , colds , dry air seem contribute , vaseline , ointment , seem keep recurring bev zalan
ron roth rose com \( ron roth \) subject selective placebo x gated usenet rosemail gateway \( v1 70 \) organization rose media inc , toronto , ontario lines 33 k \( king reasoning com \( dick king \) writes k \( k \( rr ron roth rose com \( ron roth \) wrote k \( rr otoh , kidding , new england medical journal 1984 k \( rr ran heading ninety percent diseases treatable k \( rr drugs surgery , echoed several reports k \( rr wonder mds amused alternative medicine , since k \( rr 20 magic placebo effect would award alternative k \( rr practitioners twice success rate conventional medicine k \( k \( 1 90 diseases thing 90 patients k \( k \( world one disease strikes 100 people , nine k \( incurable diseases strikes one person , medical science cure k \( 91 patients report 90 diseases therapy k \( k \( 2 disease would counted among 90 nothing better k \( placebo known course mds ethically bound knowingly k \( dispense placebos k \( k \( dk hmmm even without \) end , n't think anyone going take mathematics statistics post seriously hope thing mind post , otherwise would need least two \) 's end help anyone understand calculations ron rosereader 2 00 p003228 mind intentionally left blank rosemail 2 10 usenet rose media hamilton \( 416 \) 575 5363
rousseaua immunex com subject barbecued foods health risk distribution world organization immunex corporation , seattle , wa lines 19 grad school , remember biochemistry friend mine working heat shock proteins apparently , burning protein induce changes dna whether changes survive occurs n't know , never eat burnt food also , many woods contain toxins burnt , would seem logical may , get food , n't know toxins \( anti compounds \) would survive rather harsh conditions stomach intestine , would able cross intestinal \? maybe someone biochemical background \( almost anyone \) \) shed light heat shock proteins toxins may wood used make charcoal bbq anne marie rousseau e mail rousseaua immunex com say nothing immunex
todamhyp charles unlv edu \( brian huey \) subject krillean photography originator todamhyp charles cs unlv edu organization university nevada las vegas , college engineering lines 20 think 's correct spelling looking information supplies allow yourselfers take krillean pictures i'm thinking education suppliers schools might appartus sale , n't know companies info greatly appreciated case n't know , krillean photography , best knowledge , involves taking pictures \( time \) organic object charged plates picture show energy patterns spikes around object photographed , depending type object , spikes energy patterns vary one might extrapolate say proves every object within universe \( know \) energy signature c l e r neither confirm deny opinions expressed article directly reflect personal political views furthermore , , would liberty yield explanation alleged opinions
dyer spdcc com \( steve dyer \) subject food related seizures \? organization p dyer computer consulting , cambridge comments feingold diet relevance daughter 's purported related seizures ca n't imagine included steve dyer dyer ursa major spdcc com aka ima , harvard , rayssd , linus , m2c ! spdcc ! dyer
pchurch swell actrix gen nz \( pat churchill \) subject eye dominance organization actrix networks lines 21 article c5e2g7 877 world std com rsilver world std com \( richard silver \) writes right eye dominance \( eyedness \? \) overall right handedness population \? mean people require less lens corrections one eye \? , kinds percentages attached \? long sighted eye short sighted eye right eye tends cut look distant things , left eye close specs balance things bit could without thought , one way another , would always able see clearly unfortunately middle age ugly head longer see close objects clearly maybe 's arms getting shorter \) floggings continue morale improves pchurch swell actrix gen nz pat churchill , wellington new zealand
rind enterprise bih harvard edu \( david rind \) subject adult chicken pox distribution usa organization beth israel hospital , harvard medical school , boston mass , usa lines 15 nntp posting host enterprise bih harvard edu article feenix metronet com feenix metronet com \( marc grant \) writes point longer infectious \? physician 's office says true \? yes medications promote healing pox \? speed healing \? started first 1 2 days probably speeds recovery decreases formation new pox david rind rind enterprise bih harvard edu
wsun jeeves ucsd edu \( fiberman \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? keywords msg , glu organization university california , san diego lines 5 nntp posting host jeeves ucsd edu heard patients go seizures eat anything msg added may something neurons fm
menon boulder colorado edu \( ravi deantha menon \) subject eye dominance organization university colorado , boulder lines 38 nntp posting host beagle colorado edu nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \( david nye \) writes reply rsilver world std com \( richard silver \) right eye dominance \( eyedness \? \) overall right handedness population \? mean people require less lens corrections one eye \? , kinds percentages attached \? thanks eyedness analogous handedness nothing refractive error see whether right left eyed , roll sheet paper tube hold either eye like telescope eye feel comfortable putting dominant eye refractive error often different two eyes correlation handedness david nye \( nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \) midelfort clinic , eau claire wi patently absurd whoever wishes become philosopher must learn frightened absurdities bertrand russell mean comfortable putting seems bit hard evaluate least stare straight point hands together pointer fingers pointing straight forward spot wall eight feet away first stare spot eyes open close left eye open left eye close right eye open right eye image jumped closed right eye , right eye dominant image jumped closed left eye , left eye dominant deantha
lundby rtsg mot com \( walter f lundby \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? nntp posting host organization motorola inc , cellular infrastructure group distribution na lines 29 nobody food industry even bothered address previous question need put msg almost every food \? must assume wife 's answer closer truth hoped believes msg added food cause people eat quit put different way , believes people msg causes act toward food like addict \( eat chips , chow several packages soup get idea ! right , moral ethical standards food , chemical regulatory groups need addressed ! ! ! msg considered conditioning substance \( addictive sort habit forming \) \? brings side question mine noticed cats \( children 's parent 's \) seem fixate particular brand pet food cat eat product within one brand brand wondered case preference , , sort chemical training addiction questions , net , fda regulate contents pet food \? allowed pet food contain addictive conditioning substances \? msg put pet food \? speak motorola walter lundby
tarl sw stratus com \( tarl neustaedter \) subject krillean photography organization stratus computer , inc lines 14 distribution world nntp posting host coyoacan sw stratus com article 1993apr19 205615 1013 unlv edu , todamhyp charles unlv edu \( brian huey \) writes think 's correct spelling proper spelling kirlian effect kirlian , soviet film developer 1939 recall , visible ascribed static discharges chemical reactions organic material silver films tarl neustaedter stratus computer tarl sw stratus com marlboro , mass disclaimer employer responsible opinions
wrc xerox com \( marty \) subject intravenous antibiotics reply eso mc xerox com organization xerox x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 recently case doctors wanted give intravenous pain finding iv sites arms facts advantageous give intravenous antibiotics rather oral \? marty
spp zabriskie berkeley edu \( steve pope \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? organization u c berkeley erl lines 17 nntp posting host zion berkeley edu betty harvey writes , researcher medical person amazes ca n't find scientific known fact automatically assume reaction psychological mind boggling , simply stated , result bankrupt ethics scientific medicine industries america fed massive waste fraud costing us 15 gnp support industries , delivering marginal health care community unfortunately , clinton plan , whatever form takes , probably cost us even greater sum bleah steve
sco com \( evan hunt \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? organization santa cruz operation , inc distribution usa lines 18 article 1993apr19 sco com sco com \( evan hunt \) writes article 1993apr13 iscnvx lmsc lockheed com sharen iscnvx lmsc lockheed com \( sharen rund \) writes restaurants msg \) many restaurants feature bars use msg keep veggies looking fresh longer , also , number brings important question could pre made , kind sold supermarkets , msg added without mentioning \? legally , mean anyone know law area \? steve dyer points sharen probably thinking question still stands evan hunt , asst editor , web information web , e mail sco com
ski wpi wpi edu \( joseph mich \) subject krillean photography organization worcester polytechnic institute lines 12 nntp posting host wpi wpi edu seem recall article radio electronics subject fact copy article front , ca n't find anywhere article month system describe uses automobile ignition coil high voltage article even includes information kind film use get hope helps joseph ski wpi wpi edu
klier iscsvax uni edu subject crash program basic research \? organization university northern iowa lines 22 article 221 ky3b uucp , km ky3b pgh pa us \( ken mitchum \) writes physician , almost never get sick usually , something horrendous going around , either n't get get mild case get really sick , always something unusual situation medical school , particularly pediatrics pediatrics three solid months illness , temp 104 took final exam ! think happens training , beyond , constantly exposed new things , usual reactions , later , challenged something , likely exposure us , deal well get mild illness also commonly seen new teachers first years , 're sick lot , gradually seem build almost everything common come think , healthiest working pathogens lab , exposed knows time pre osha , course kay klier biology dept uni
kxgst1 pitt edu \( kenneth gilbert \) subject intravenous antibiotics organization university pittsburgh lines 25 article 1993apr19 spectrum xerox com eso mc xerox com writes recently case doctors wanted give intravenous pain finding iv sites arms facts advantageous give intravenous antibiotics rather oral \? think essential information must missing , e , must suffering condition caused indication iv otherwise healthy person oral form help reduce length symptoms , may even help prevent development post , certainly would subject someone iv therapy without good reason address general question , iv therapy provide higher consistently high plasma tissue levels drug treating serious infection way sure patient getting adequate drug levels kenneth gilbert university pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit , programmer !
mmm cup portal com \( mark robert thorson \) subject barbecued foods health risk organization portal system \( tm \) distribution world lines 33 n't understand assumption something found carcinogenic would legal u think naturally occuring substances \( excluding controlled substances \) pretty much unregulated terms use food , food additives consumption 's chemists concoct \( sp \? \) ingredient falls fda regulations otherwise , really looked closely would find reason ban almost everything world suppose 's legal consume tobacco products \( probably banned \) \? , something called delany amendment makes carcinogenic food additives illegal amount passed congress 1950 's , stuff like mass became available , increased detectable levels substances couple orders magnitude things like red 2 banned weakly carcinogenic huge quantities rats , act banned also applies natural carcinogens might remember time back 1960 's root beer suddenly stopped good , never tasted good time banned active flavoring ingredient sassafras leaves possible market root beer good like old days , someone would , order make money fact one indicates enforcement still effect odd exception rule seems product known file' nothing ground dried sassafras leaves natural product , natural product still natural form , maybe 's evade delany maybe special exemption made , appease powerful louisiana democrats
twain carson u washington edu \( barbara \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? article shelley distribution na organization university washington , seattle lines 38 nntp posting host carson u washington edu article 1993apr19 rtsg mot com lundby rtsg mot com \( walter f lundby \) writes nobody food industry even bothered address previous question need put msg almost every food \? must assume wife 's answer closer truth hoped n't mean disrespectful concerns , seems 're getting wound non issue many knowledgeable people pointed , msg naturally occurring substance lot , , foods food manufacturers add preparation , 's known flavor enhancer wife 's theory , msg added food stimulate appetite , may well true n't believe 's always reason 's added people \( largely , part \) charge children 's parent 's \) seem fixate particular brand pet food cat eat product within one brand brand wondered case preference , , sort chemical training addiction questions , net , fda regulate contents pet food \? allowed pet food contain addictive conditioning substances \? msg put pet food \? n't know much cats , \? cats take advantage resign never understand cat tastes also suspect , though 's since 've checked ingredients commercial cat food , much stringent requirements pet food additives human see , fda stupid idea human beings intelligence look interests barbara , wondering cat would take care
kaminski netcom com \( peter kaminski \) subject krillean photography lines 101 organization information via netcom san jose , california newsgroups h added , followups set appropriate groups 1993apr19 205615 1013 unlv edu todamhyp charles unlv edu \( brian huey \) writes looking information supplies allow yourselfers take krillean pictures \( 's kirlian krillean pictures tiny \) one might extrapolate say proves every object within universe \( know \) energy signature think 's safe say anything 's 0 degrees kelvin energy signature interesting questions kind energy , signifies 'd check places like edmund scientific \( still business \? \) wonder find ex soviet union equipment sale somewhere hierarchy expansion kirlian photography credulous side , andrew , alternative medicine guide natural therapies , isbn 0 14 0 , new york viking penguin , 1986 , , overly critical still useful overview 32 alternative health therapies russian engineer kirlian wife 1950s using alternating currents high frequency subjects , photographed found object good conductor \( metal \) picture showed surface , pictures poor conductors showed inner structure object even optically opaque found high frequency pictures could distinguish dead living objects dead ones constant outline whilst living ones subject changes object 's life activity also visible highly variable colour patterns high frequency photography practised twenty years soviet union people west taken seriously professor douglas dean new york professor philips washington university st louis produced kirlian photographs others produced brazil , austria germany using kirlian photography possible show aura around people 's fingers , notably around healers concentrating healing someone normally , blue white rays fingers , subject becomes angry excited , aura turns red spotty soviets using kirlian photography diagnose diseases cannot diagnosed method argue illnesses stage person n't actually ill claim able disease phase exciting phenomenon illustrated kirlian photography phantom effect high frequency photography leaf part cut , photograph gave complete picture leaf removed part showing faintly extremely important backs experiences psychics legs still important thing kirlian though electromagnetic pattern ca n't possibly represent secondary phenomenon field would vanish piece leaf leg vanished energy grid contained living object must therefore far significant actual object kirlian photography shown water mentally healer much richer energy field around ordinary water side , alan , reality shopping consumer 's guide new age hokum , whole earth review , autumn 1986 , p4 \( 11 \) excellent article providing common sense guidelines evaluating paranormal claims , author 's favorite examples hokum crank usually works isolation everyone else field study , making grand discoveries basement many paranormal movements traced back people kirlian photography , instance pump high voltage electricity anything emit glowing sparks , common knowledge electrical workers hobbyists century took lone basement crank declare sparks represent sort spiritual aura fact , kirlian photography subjected rigorous testing physicists john , harry j kyler , david l faust , reported findings october 15 , 1976 , issue science conclusion variations observed kirlian photographs due solely moisture surface body mysterious auras even necessarily changes mood mental state nevertheless , television shows , magazines , books \( many famous \) continue promote kirlian photography proof unknown peter kaminski kaminski netcom com
subject knots \? ng4 husc11 harvard edu \( ho leung ng \) nntp posting host husc11 harvard edu lines 8 exactly knots , sore , tight spots muscles \? certain kinds massage , people try break knots really helpful \? ho leung ng ng4 husc harvard edu
kiran village com \( kiran wagle \) subject barbecued foods health risk organization sea lines 55 nntp posting host cs utexas edu mark halcyon com reminds us mm also , n't forget 's better health mm enjoy steak resent sprouts yes ! call notion psychological health food , fact , determined four food groups ice cream , pizza , barbecue , chocolate ideally , every meal contain something least two four groups food serve functions nutrition , one keeping organism happy thus aiding immune system n't spend million bucks study told redraw silly little pyramid different colors , either \( ref consumer back page one best things ever turn \) rich young young serum kodak com writes one six impossible things ry consume unrealistically large quantities barbecued meat time donald mackie donald mackie med umich edu dm confess one ambitions dm matter much eat , still seems realistic yeah , want try one steaks \( cooked \) wally 's wolf lodge inn seems quite unrealistic unrealistically small ribs east texas smoker \( rip , \) louisville unrealistic either say rec food cooking dinner bar b que inn \? \( 's eat including lamb ribs 10 \) could invite julie kangas guest honor see 's hot sauce hot \( hot , n't say often \) could bring ice cream crushed dried could see thing unrealistically large quantity barbecue owner estimates restaurants serve hundred thousand pounds meat week summer , forty thousand winter town 50 000 two pounds per person per week \? , sure sounds unrealistic thats meager healthy kiran \( two pound slab ribs day , 's realistic \) fuzzy pink law never waste calories potato chips , candy , whipped cream , hot fudge consumption may involve , dietician , wardrobe , factors fuzzy pink 's law implies n't eat soggy potato chips , cheap candy , fake whipped cream , inferior hot fudge larry , laws , n space
mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) subject frequent nosebleeds nntp posting host aisun3 ai uga edu organization ai programs , university georgia , athens lines 17 article chevron com \( beverly zalan \) writes 6 year son plagued lots vaseline nose night seems keep control let get , 'll recur days ! also allergies , colds , dry air seem contribute , vaseline , ointment , seem keep recurring get , might want try canadian counter product called secaris , water soluble gel compared vaseline greasy , secaris seems compatible moisture 's already michael covington , associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu university georgia phone 706 542 0358 athens , georgia 30602 7415 u amateur radio n4tmi
myers cs scarolina edu \( daniel myers \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? organization usc department computer science lines 39 frequently late , reacting something added restaurant foods happens inside throat starts feel , like cold , also times inside mouth \( especially tongue \) lips also feel situations around symptoms almost always involve restaurants \( usually chinese \) , notable cases cheap chinese fast food chain , japanese steak house \( steak \) , another chinese fast food chain saw cook put two looked like sugar salt fried rice impression msg flavor causing taste buds swell correct , find unreasonable assume high doses msg cause mouth tissues swell also , many occurances \( including two \) involved beef , beef frequently msg , suspect cause would n't surprised toxicity studies msg animals showed harmless , would startling hear lab rat monkey complain throats feeling funny anyone wishes explain majority food additives totally harmless welcome e mail results studied know probably respond however reminder long took prove smoking causes cancer \( tobacco companies still deny \) dm \( sound grumpy , 's beef broccoli lunch today , hurts swallow \) dan myers \( madman \) creator intended us walk myers usceast cs scarolina edu upright , would n't given us knuckles
subject origin morphine eis calstate edu \( christopher \) organization calif state univ electronic information services lines 20 sorry bother newsgroup suggestions might find subject letter \( origin morphine , ie first , attempted experiment \) agian suggestion would appreciated csh p insists get 4 newsgroup , please send info think may helpful facts know , n't know book 're ok attention like seeing letters one newsgroup direct complaints instructor eis edu kilimanjaro pretty tricky climb 's , reach , top , tends slope away rather sharply sir george head , \( jc \) logic point frozen , beast dead , difference \? gavin \( jc \)
nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \( david nye \) subject ob gyn residency organization university wisconsin eau claire lines 13 reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) believe illegal residency discriminate fmgs true \? know wo n't even interview fmgs think case could made discriminatory , particularly applicant good board scores recommendations n't offered interview , n't know ever gone court david nye \( nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \) midelfort clinic , eau claire wi patently absurd whoever wishes become philosopher must learn frightened absurdities bertrand russell
nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \( david nye \) subject krillean photography organization university wisconsin eau claire lines 21 reply todamhyp charles unlv edu \( brian huey \) think 's correct spelling kirilian picture show energy patterns spikes around object photographed , depending type object , spikes energy patterns vary one might extrapolate say proves every object within universe \( know \) energy signature turned simple , conventional explanation phenomenon ca n't recall details , believe object plates altering field purely mechanical properties like capacitance aura caused direct exposure film variations field strength david nye \( nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \) midelfort clinic , eau claire wi patently absurd whoever wishes become philosopher must learn frightened absurdities bertrand russell
lindsay princeton edu \( j stern \) subject recurrent respiratory papillomatosis originator news nimaster nntp posting host lindsay princeton edu organization princeton university distribution nj lines 43 holding bake craft sale princeton street , saturday april 24th 12 4 p benefit recurrent respiratory papillomatosis foundation , nonprofit foundation established encourage research toward cure recurrent respiratory papillomatosis three year old daughter suffers disease press release appeared local newspapers hope join us saturday , april 24 part princeton , local family bake craft sale raise money create public awareness rare disease called recurrent respiratory papillomatosis bill stern 's daughter lindsay afflicted disease characterized tumors attacking inside , vocal cords caused virus , tumors grow , block air passages would lead death without continual surgery remove three year old lindsay undergone 11 operations thus far since diagnosis last year faces prospect hundred operations throughout lifetime even though disease hardly household word , affected lives enough people inspire formation recurrent respiratory papillomatosis foundation , non profit foundation whose goals provide support patients families networking patients publishing newsletter , enhance awareness local national level , aid prevention , cure , treatment since medical researchers know virus causing disease similar viruses causing , feel cure would within reach money available research rare , gets scant attention also paltry funds search cure part foundation 's mission change anyone interested contributing items bake craft sale , please call bill 609 890 monetary donations made foundation 's booth , april 24th , 12 4 p , downtown princeton , sent directly recurrent respiratory foundation 50 wesleyan drive hamilton sq , nj thanks lindsay princeton edu
nusunix1 nus sg \( lin \) subject meniere real remedy \? organization national university singapore x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 21 would nice think individuals somehow system' like space explorer , boldly go man gone return prize cure unfortunately , often prize limited efficacy questionable applied sufferers applies medical researchers non medical individuals appears obscure journal may use make next cure dozens individuals participated clinical trials \? cures \? less n't trumpet story world \? parting note , n't studies done seeds meniere 's \? \( original poster trying trial \? 's probably final answer certainly may alleviate discomfort 'd helping answer question future sufferers \)
doyle pitt edu \( howard r doyle \) subject hernia organization pittsburgh transplant institute lines 41 article encore com encore com \( steve \) writes bit year ago , hernia right groin discovered produced dull pain area hernia repaired using least intrusive \( \? \) method plug patch suspect mean instead pain occurs often gp could n't identify specific problem performed original procedure says yes new hernia area said cut area repair time question net method determine fact hernia pain something else \? far \( still \) best method diagnose hernia old fashioned physical examination obvious hernia sac coming , bulge groin brought increasing intra abdominal pressure sometimes obvious hernia small detect putting finger inguinal canal whether recurrent hernia , related previous operation , ca n't tell person examined best position make determination non invasive ways diagnosing hernia \? every folks write ct scans ultrasounds far expensive , unlikely better trained examining finger howard doyle doyle pitt edu
nusunix1 nus sg \( lin \) subject lasers organization national university singapore x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 12 true gave reached laser age , fact , lasers surgery new exciting field probably wo n't effective laser usually superficial burn \( avoid deeper damage \) limited cured albeit sometimes slowly topical well systemic medication e tablets finally , self diagnosis always reliable , simplex look like fungal infection requires different treatment
jer prefect cc bellcore com \( , janice e \) subject eye dominance organization bellcore , livingston , nj lines 40 article 1993apr19 porthos cc bellcore com , uucp \( jamie \) writes article pitt uucp geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) writes article c5e2g7 877 world std com rsilver world std com \( richard silver \) writes right eye dominance \( eyedness \? \) overall right handedness population \? mean people require less lens corrections one eye \? , kinds percentages attached \? eye dominance handedness \( usually side \) nothing refractive error , however recall reading seeing former baseball star chris hitting abilities \( part \) attributed combination left handedness right eye dominance part study years ago university arizona see whether cross dominant individuals \( particular handedness dominance opposite eye \) better hitters side dominance hand eye picked softball class cross dominant \( right hand , left eye \) put small minority \( grad student trying get equal number cross dominant side dominant people \) control study , used pitching machine fast pitch since used slow pitch , n't come close \( actually think foul tipped \) hitting ball lot people like study \( e , ca n't hit fast pitch , used hitting machine \) , would seriously question results study ! ! think studies major league players \( across fairly large cross section players \) test whether eye dominance opposite side better n't know results \( woman ran study said higher incidence major leaguers across general population i'm sure whether 'd believe \) janice
vub ac \( philippe lebrun \) subject laser treatment distribution eunet organization universiteit brussel lines 18 article 1993apr17 freenet carleton ca , ab961 freenet carleton ca \( robert allison \) writes family doctor \( pt \) sent agree pain left shoulder appointment \( love , 's short surgeon , apparently \) i'm waiting pt treating 's using hot packs , ultrasound , lasers , 's improvement yet fact , almost suspect 's getting worse real question laser treatment ca n't easily imagine physical effect could deep tissue problem anyone shed light \( speak \) matter \? works 's due heat produced laser philippe
francis ircam fr \( joseph francis \) subject krillean photography organization inst de recherche et coordination , paris lines 50 article 1993apr19 205615 1013 unlv edu todamhyp charles unlv edu \( brian huey \) writes think 's correct spelling looking information supplies allow yourselfers take krillean pictures i'm thinking education suppliers schools might appartus sale , n't know companies info greatly appreciated photography n't educational , except purely sense case n't know , krillean photography , best knowledge , involves taking pictures \( time \) organic object charged plates picture show energy patterns spikes around object photographed , depending type object , spikes energy patterns vary one might extrapolate say proves every object within universe \( know \) energy signature photography involves putting donuts grease covered hot metal plates illuminating krypton unique involving 4th dimensional projection torus semi interactions hot lipid layers covering metal plates \( best metal iron since \) donuts start developing , within moments actually become poly hot greasy people believe food way man 's heart , psychics agree nothing like hot breakfast chemical composition mystery , thought evidence charles fort 's wonder 's production secret life plants played backwards theatre fertile farms deduced complex carbohydrates ordinarily found clouds called box asked really case , tm letter across atlantic tell indeed another case misunderstanding tesla , though university n't confirmed anything least taste good got recipe le fresh 'n' clean , speaking way want live today american american , bit , even
swkirch sun6850 nrl navy mil \( steve kirchoefer \) subject 3rd cfv vote ack misc health diabetes organization naval research laboratory \( electronics science technology division \) lines 198 nntp posting host rodan uu net third final call votes creation newsgroup misc health diabetes mass acknowledgement valid votes received april 19th 14 00 gmt appears end posting please check list sure vote registered read instructions voting carefully follow precisely certain place proper vote instructions voting place vote creation misc health diabetes , send email message yes sun6850 nrl navy mil place vote creation misc health diabetes , send email message sun6850 nrl navy mil contents message contain line vote misc health diabetes proposed email messages sent addresses must constitute unambiguous unconditional votes newsgroup creation proposed conditional votes accepted votes emailed addresses counted mailed replies posting returned event one vote placed individual , recent vote counted voting continue 23 59 gmt , 29 apr 93 votes accepted date administrative inquiries pertaining cfv may made email swkirch sun6850 nrl navy mil proposed charter appears charter misc health diabetes unmoderated 1 purpose misc health diabetes provide forum discussion issues pertaining diabetes management , e diet , activities , medicine schedules , blood glucose control , exercise , medical breakthroughs , etc group addresses issues management type \( insulin dependent \) type ii \( non insulin dependent \) diabetes technical discussions general support discussions relevant diabetes welcome 2 postings misc heath diabetes intended discussion purposes , way construed medical advice diabetes serious medical condition requiring direct supervision primary health care physician \( end charter \) following individuals sent valid votes vms csd mu edu bill loki cc pdx edu jim williams freenet carleton ca colin ad cat de axel dunkel mty itesm mx jesus pe badlands nodak edu ramakrishna reddy apps kodak com robert w apps mik uky edu r gov ca dave bain morris hac com morris juliet caltech edu ucd ie brian gaines bjorn b larsen delab sintef sad hp com bob bruce liverpool ac uk bruce binkley cs mcgill ca brian spencer cline usceast cs scarolina edu ernest cline coleman twin com mike coleman compass da com ! compass da com thomas donnelly csc coast ucsd edu charles ! sbs unh edu stephanie bradley swift brenda corp apple com , brenda dlb fanny wash inmet com david barton midway uchicago edu deborah lynn dougb comm mot com douglas bank ed titipu resun com edward reid edmoore vcd hp com ed moore gi alaska edu eric j olson emcguire intellection com ed mcguire hpl hp com enrico enet dec com franklig gas uug arizona edu gregory c franklin fsspr acad3 alaska edu hardcore alaskan gabe angus mi org gabe gasp lcs mit edu isaac gasp lcs mit edu isaac geir tf tele cory berkeley edu gail gurman ggw wolves durham nc us gregory g woodbury oasys dt navy mil leila thomas grm andrew cmu edu gretchen miller cs rpi edu duvm bitnet pucc princeton edu phil handel ohsu edu hc nyongwa cam org hc nrl navy mil hubert herbison ucx lkg dec com b j mosaic uncc edu herbert petro iscsvax uni edu hrubin pop stat purdue edu herman rubin duc auburn edu b hudson huff med nyu edu edward j huff huffman ingres com gary huffman huynh 1 estd nrl navy mil minh huynh cix compulink co uk donkin james eng sun com james netcom com john myers jc crosfield co uk jerry jesup cbmvax cbm commodore com randell jesup gandalf rutgers edu joyce morris csiro au joe john burton auburn edu john e burton jr comm mot com cc edu mik uky edu p sum ucsf edu john maynard julien skcla monsanto com kaminski netcom com peter kaminski kerry citr uq oz au kerry raymond world std com aaron l dickey cs uiuc edu rob spot colorado edu jennifer lynn tcs com marc lau ai sri com stephen lau lee hal com lee boylan po cwru edu lehigh edu chili cc lehigh edu stephen g beamish ins gu edu au marilyn beamish rich ens gu edu au maurice h rich maas fnal gov peter maas g kosmos wcc govt nz gerry vcd hp com mark vms huji ac il mcb net bio net michael c ux1 cso uiuc edu flute calpoly edu mfc isr harvard edu f mg wpi edu martha mhollowa ic sunysb edu michael holloway misha abacus concordia ca misha mjb cs brown edu manish butte vax1 tcd ie muir idiom berkeley ca us david muir nancy block eng sun com nancy block ndallen r node hub org nigel allen nei nih gov , nathan owens cc buffalo edu bill owens fc hp com pam sullivan papresco undergrad math uwaterloo ca paul prescod cs rpi edu gov ca christopher cisco com peter kane odysseus uchicago edu glenn cs washington edu aaron med unc edu pat watkins mosaic shearson com ken robinson rick crick ssctr bcm tmc edu richard h miller media mit edu kozierok rolf green mathematik uni stuttgart de rolf schreiber cup portal com unx sas com joan stout delphi com hpl hp com scs demon co uk stuart c squibb cray com sharen iscnvx lmsc lockheed com sharen rund unh edu matthew thompson shipman larc nasa gov floyd shipman shoppa erin caltech edu tim shoppa cs1 bradley edu susan steveo world std com steven w orr ivy wpi edu chandra swkirch sun6850 nrl navy mil steven kirchoefer edu ccit arizona edu l thomas e taylor chi il us thomas e taylor honeywell com timothy relay nswc navy mil tony samuel uicvm uic edu jacobs gte com stern wahlgren van wti com james wahlgren sea pyramid com douglas jhuapl edu informix com william grant med upenn edu yozzo watson ibm com ralph e yozzo beach utmb edu hamilton steve kirchoefer \( 202 \) 767 code kirchoefer estd nrl navy mil naval research laboratory microwave technology branch washington , dc 5000 electronics sci tech division
bmdelane midway uchicago edu \( brian manning delaney \) subject result sci life extension passes 237 28 organization university chicago lines 284 nntp posting host rodan uu net vote create proposed group , sci life extension , affirmative yes votes 237 votes 28 follows list people voted , vote \( yes \) people voted bailey ph utexas edu \( ed bailey \) barkdoll lepomis psych upenn edu \( edwin barkdoll \) msb sq com \( mark brader \) carr acsu buffalo edu \( dave carr \) ccr p ida org \( david desjardins \) edu \( james b \) circ upenn edu \( rich \) stu mythical com \( stu \) lau ai sri com \( stephen lau \) vub ac \( philippe lebrun \) nyx cs du edu \( jay maynard \) emcguire intellection com \( ed mcguire \) rick crick ssctr bcm tmc edu \( richard h miller \) zooid guild org \( marc \) nyx cs du edu \( david \) gi alaska edu \( eric j olson \) mosaic uncc edu \( herbert petro \) smith una yale edu \( una smith \) mmt com \( \) sub org \( matthias \) umbc edu \( francis uy \) werner soe berkeley edu \( john werner \) wick netcom com \( potter \) ggw wolves durham nc us \( gregory g woodbury \) w wright bnr co uk \( wright \) norman cs yale edu \( norman \) ask att com opal cs virginia edu people voted yes fsspr acad3 alaska edu \( hardcore alaskan \) eecs umich edu \( ken alexander \) sdcc14 ucsd edu \( alex \) franklin com \( franklin \) umbc edu \( mr steven \) build alan b30 ingr com \( alan \( build \) \) lion kludge com \( john h barlow \) uceng uc edu \( paul \) ryan canrem com \( ryan \) shannon jpl nasa gov \( \) fr \( william \) lise unit \( olav \) ross demon co uk \( ross \) ben best canrem com \( ben best \) levi happy man com \( levi \) eng sun com \( james \) nyx cs du edu \( gregory bloom \) netcom com \( mark brader \) ebrandt jarthur claremont edu \( eli brandt \) doom leland stanford edu \( joseph brenner \) rc pos apana org au \( robert \) binkley cs mcgill ca \( jeffrey chance \) sasha cs umb edu \( alexander \) world std com \( maynard clark \) 2703 compuserve com \( j clifford \) coleman com \( mike coleman \) steve constellation ecn uoknor edu \( steve \) collier ivory rtsg mot com \( john collier \) compton plains nodak edu \( curtis compton \) bobc master cna tek com \( bob cook \) shaman com \( bruce \) ere umontreal ca \( jean marc \) macc wisc edu \( douglas j coyle \) student tc umn edu \( john r 1 \) onion eng hou compaq com \( bruce davis \) emunix emich edu \( kenneth \) sj ate slb com \( mark \) markd sco com \( mark \) kari com \( kari \) lhdsy1 ! cyberia hou281 chevron com ! uunet uu net \( dublin \) helios unl edu \( dye \) jove dnet measurex com juno measurex com \( terry egan \) eder hsvaic boeing com \( dani eder \) hq ileaf com \( glenn ellingson \) farrar com \( richard farrar \) ! hal uunet uu net \( hal finney \) srv pacbell com \( lee \) ingr com \( foxx \) disc dla mil \( sam , , , \) lcs mit edu \( michael p frank \) martin franklin corp sun com \( martin franklin \) tiff cs ucla edu \( frazier \) freeman u ergo cs cmu edu \( freeman \) timothy freeman u ergo cs cmu edu \( tim freeman \) prism gatech edu \( geoff george \) nl \( daniel \) exu ericsson se \( gilbert \) rlglende netcom com \( robert lewis glendenning \) goetz cs buffalo edu \( phil goetz \) dg rtp dg com \( chris \) crow omni co jp \( david gordon \) demon co uk \( robert \) unx sas com \( grant \) green island com \( robert greenstein \) johng oce orst edu \( john \) roger netcom com \( roger gregory \) evans ron cs yale edu \( ron hale evans \) brent vpnet chi il us \( brent hansen \) ron g hay med umich edu \( ron g hay \) gvg tek com \( anna k haynes \) claris ! qm ! bob hearn ames arc nasa gov \( robert hearn \) vub ac \( francis \) midway uchicago edu \( p \) casbah acns nwu edu \( james \) janzen mprgate mpr ca \( martin janzen \) skcla monsanto com \( jeffery \) elsegundoca ncr com \( richard kelly \) gnu ai mit edu \( ed \) rintintin colorado edu \( eric \) csv warwick ac uk \( mr r \) sunset cs utah edu \( keith \) bridge com \( kramer \) jupiter com \( ben \) eskimo com \( david \) ! ! sel uunet uu net \( steve \) pa hcl coe northeastern edu \( henry \) cam ac uk \( steve \) cs ep utexas edu \( alejandro lopez \) kfl access digex com \( keith f lynch \) msu edu \( charles macdonald \) rob vis toronto edu \( robert c \) phil com \( phil marks \) cam jackatak raider net \( cameron marshall \) mcd intel com \( mike may \) chi il us \( bruce maynard \) disc dla mil \( john \) xyzzy com \( david mcintyre \) csv warwick ac uk \( malcolm \) ucsd edu \( john mcpherson \) merkle parc xerox com \( ralph merkle \) eric com \( eric \) pmetzger shearson com \( perry e metzger \) gmichael vmd cso uiuc edu \( gary r michael \) lth se \( mikael \) wharton upenn edu \( loren j miller \) minsky media mit edu \( marvin minsky \) lamar colostate edu \( paul morris \) mark novell com \( mark \) david staff upenn edu \( r david murray \) mosaic uncc edu \( glenn \) anthony meaddata com \( anthony napier \) panther win net \( donald e \) unixg ubc ca \( richard \) jonathan rmit edu au \( jonathan o'donnell \) martino gomez jpl nasa gov \( martin r \) leland stanford edu \( christopher \) boeing com \( chris payne \) sharon fr \( sharon \) rhi hi \( henry petersen \) efi com \( chris phoenix \) pierce cs ucla edu \( brad pierce \) julius math utah edu \( julius pierce \) dplatt cellar org \( doug platt \) mitchell porter lambada oit unc edu \( mitchell porter \) b30 ingr com \( craig \) price price demon co uk \( michael clive price \) uicvm bitnet \( edward \) works ti com \( steve \) pucc bitnet \( michael quinn \) army mil \( patrick \) cs tu berlin de \( jan k \) yfn ysu edu \( barry h rodin \) cs uah edu \( karl r \) rcs cs arizona edu \( richard \) pyramid com \( frank schulz \) thunder island kalamazoo mi us \( w \) gozer idbsu edu \( brad \) manta nosc mil \( thomas \) habs panix com \( harry shapiro \) muir idiom berkeley ca us \( david muir \) dasher well sf ca us \( anton sherwood \) zero netcom com \( richard \) brownvm bitnet \( elaine \) auto trol com \( robert shock \) gmuvax2 gmu edu \( rob \) cie 2 uoregon edu \( william siegel \) mixcom mixcom com \( kenton sinner \) tti com \( bob smart \) ariel ucs unimelb edu au \( anthony david smith \) oz au \( shayne noel smith \) beta wsu edu \( daniel l snider \) spot colorado edu \( snyder gary edwin jr \) ruth com \( brian arthur stewart \) lhdsy1 ! midland chevron com ! uunet uu net \( stewart \) nat netcom com \( nathaniel \) tps com \( tom \) andromeda rutgers edu \( david \) gadget dcs warwick ac uk \( steve strong \) carey cs ucla edu \( carey \) netcom com \( jeff \) cern ch \( john \) szabo techbook com \( nick szabo \) netcom com \( p chris \) yfn ysu edu \( chris thompson \) gunnar bio uio \( gunnar \) uxa cso uiuc edu \( andrew \) jerry cse lbl gov \( jerry \) music ernet \( \) u washington edu \( \) magnus acs ohio state edu \( eric j \) uicvm bitnet \( howard \) susan wpi wpi edu \( susan c wade \) compuserve com \( paul \) edu \( elaine walker \) jew rt com \( james ward \) jeremy ai mit edu \( jeremy \) bw torreypinesca ncr com \( bruce white 3807 \) weeds strobe atc olivetti com \( mark \) wiesel elisha cs yale edu \( elisha wiesel \) gar union edu \( willing , paul \) alcor concordia ca \( steven \) wright hi com \( david wright \) ericsson com \( stephen wright \) cts com \( liquid x \) csl uiuc edu \( michael g \) cs brown edu \( ion \) sd locus com \( bob \) lucid com \( leonard n \) br gmu edu art embl hamburg de atfurman cup portal com attmail att com carl red dragon umbc edu carlf ai mit edu cccbbs ! chris thompson uceng uc edu mizzou1 bitnet cellar org permanet org daedalus netcom com autodesk com dave cup portal com f griffith ccsvax sfasu edu garcia husc harvard edu att com cs unm edu herbison ucx lkg dec com athena mit edu cup portal com irving happy man com med u ac jp merit edu jmeritt mental mitre org jonas marten cup portal com att com sim es com apollo hp com wustl edu a1 logica co uk michelle att com elec canterbury ac nz eos ncsu edu ng4 husc harvard edu ! uwm edu math utah edu rudi uvic ca delphi com stanton ide com microsoft com discover wright edu es ae xerox com tim com todd mt cs cmu edu tom genie slhs udel edu mizzou1 bitnet clemson edu mv us adobe com \( group still passes n't count people email address \) brian bmdelane midway uchicago edu
filipe vxcrna cern ch \( vinci \) subject krillean photography news software vax vms vnews 1 41 organization european organization nuclear research , cern lines 14 article 1993apr20 ircam fr , francis ircam fr \( joseph francis \) writes article 1993apr19 205615 1013 unlv edu todamhyp charles unlv edu \( brian huey \) writes think 's correct spelling kirlian imaging \? believe faq sci skeptics \( sp \? \) nice write would certainly supportive helping build device connect supply take serious look aura \) filipe santos cern european laboratory particle physics switzerland
rind enterprise bih harvard edu \( david rind \) subject candida albicans \? organization beth israel hospital , harvard medical school , boston mass , usa lines 19 nntp posting host enterprise bih harvard edu article 1993apr19 1040 ida liu se davpa ida liu se \( david partain \) writes someone know recently diagnosed candida albicans , disease find information apparently something body 's production yeast time highly allergic yeast anyone tell \? candida albicans cause severe life threatening infections , usually people otherwise quite ill , however , sort illness probably discussing systemic yeast syndrome body allergic yeast considered quack diagnosis mainstream medicine book yeast connection talks illness convincing evidence disease exists david rind rind enterprise bih harvard edu
marco sdf lonestar org \( steve giammarco \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? organization sdf public access unix , dallas tx 214 436 lines 27 article hi com rogers hi com \( andrew rogers \) writes article 1993apr15 walter bellcore com jchen ctt bellcore com writes chinese , many asians \( japanese , koreans , etc \) used msg flavor enhancer two thousand years believe knew make msg chemical processes \? extracted natural food sea food meat add fuel flame war , read 20 years ago natural msg extracted sources mention cause reported 's nasty artificial msg extracted coal tar whatever causes chinese restaurant syndrome find pretty hard believe anyone else heard \? \( possibly incorrect \) assumption msg foods made processing sugar true \? sources msg \? one react , sometimes strongly , msg however , also react strongly sodium chloride \( table salt \) excess causes different symptoms except common one rapid heartbeat uncomfortable feeling pressure chest , upper left quadrant steve giammarco peterson lane dallas tx marco sdf lonestar org
donald mackie donald mackie med umich edu subject ob gyn residency organization um anesthesiology lines 21 distribution world nntp posting host 141 214 86 38 x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d9 x xxdate tue , 20 apr 93 16 46 24 gmt article 1993apr20 cnsvax uwec edu david nye , nyeda cnsvax uwec edu writes believe illegal residency discriminate fmgs true \? know wo n't even interview fmgs think case could made discriminatory , particularly applicant good board scores recommendations n't offered interview , n't know ever gone court fmgs citizens , like aliens , difficult situation citizens get vote , non citizens little interest legislators also , non citizen may well middle processing resident alien status sense rocking boat \( eg suing residency program \) delay granting status , perhaps ever mackie opinions
dyer spdcc com \( steve dyer \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? organization p dyer computer consulting , cambridge lines 22 article myers peach cs scarolina edu myers cs scarolina edu \( daniel myers \) writes impression msg flavor causing taste buds swell , 's works correct , find unreasonable assume high doses msg cause mouth tissues swell may different mechanism also , many occurances \( including two \) involved beef , beef frequently msg , suspect cause beef involves , enzyme meat packets might contain msg , msg n't act steve dyer dyer ursa major spdcc com aka ima , harvard , rayssd , linus , m2c ! spdcc ! dyer
hp com \( david stockton \) subject krillean photography nntp posting host hp com organization hewlett packard ltd , south , scotland x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 8 lines 23 vinci \( filipe vxcrna cern ch \) wrote kirlian imaging \? believe faq sci skeptics \( sp \? \) nice write would certainly supportive helping build device connect supply take serious look aura \) filipe santos cern european laboratory particle physics switzerland , generally accepted , method using common physics lab equipment find certain answers questions , heavens , , purgatory , gods etc krillean photography probably ignored insignificant compared larger eternal publishing results could bit problem , though cheers david
michael iastate edu \( michael huang \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? organization iowa state university , ames ia lines 21 msg common many food eat , including chinese \( though oriental restaurants might put tad much \) 've noticed go eat chinese food restaurants , usually get slight headache thirst afterwards happens many friends relatives , heh , eat chinese food time home \) \( n't use msg 're cooking \) , put one one together , safely assumed msg may cause allergic reactions people stick natural things msg n't body good \( possibly harms , matter \) , bother \? taste food tasted , n't cloud flavor imaginary cloak msg michael michael huang n't believe eyes telling , iowa state univ show limitation look michael iastate edu understanding , find already know , include standard disclaimer 'll see way fly j l
carl sol1 gps caltech edu \( carl j lydick \) subject krillean photography organization hst wide field planetary camera lines 24 distribution world reply carl sol1 gps caltech edu nntp posting host sol1 gps caltech edu article 1993apr19 205615 1013 unlv edu , todamhyp charles unlv edu \( brian huey \) writes think 's correct spelling looking information supplies allow yourselfers take krillean pictures i'm thinking education suppliers schools might appartus sale , n't know companies info greatly appreciated case n't know , krillean photography , best knowledge , involves taking pictures \( time \) organic object charged plates picture show energy patterns spikes around object photographed , depending type object , spikes energy patterns vary one might extrapolate say proves every object within universe \( know \) energy signature go library look corona discharge carl j lydick internet carl sol1 gps caltech edu nsi hepnet sol1 carl disclaimer hey , understand vaxen vms 's get paid understanding astronomy purely amateur level \( \) unless i'm saying directly related vax vms , n't hold organization responsible related vax vms , try hold responsible , organization nothing
stark dwovax enet dec com \( todd stark \) subject ocd summary 's highlights dsm organization digital equipment corporation lines 45 nntp posting host dwovax article news hawaii edu , hawaii edu \( \) writes recently heard mental disorder called obsessive compulsive disorder \? causes \? could caused nervous breakdown \? compulsive disorder \( confused obsessive compulsive personality disorder ! \) acute anxiety disorder characterized either \( persistent intrusive thoughts cause anxiety entertained \) , compulsions \( repetitive , actions similarly cause intense psychological discomfort resisted \) ocd often associated certain forms depression examples obsessive thoughts repeated impulses kill loved one \( though accompanied anger \) , religious person recurrent blasphemous thoughts generally , individual attempts ignore suppress intrusive thoughts engaging activities individual realizes thoughts originate mind , rather external source examples compulsive actions constant repetitive hand washing , activity realistically related source anxiety ocd , compulsions highly distressing individual , take hour per day , significantly impair daily routine social relationships treatments include , behavioral methods , sometimes certain anti depressants recently found effective compulsions standard diagnostic code ocd , want look dsm iii manual psychiatric diagnosis 300 30 kind regards , todd todd stark stark dwovax enet dec com digital equipment corporation \( 215 \) 354 philadelphia , pa usa \( word \) skin living thought wendell holmes , jr
julie eddie jpl nasa gov \( julie kangas \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? nntp posting host eddie jpl nasa gov organization jet propulsion laboratory , pasadena , ca lines 34 article michael iastate edu michael iastate edu \( michael huang \) writes msg common many food eat , including chinese \( though oriental restaurants might put tad much \) 've noticed go eat chinese food restaurants , usually get slight headache thirst afterwards happens many friends relatives , heh , eat chinese food time home \) \( n't use msg 're cooking \) , put one one together , safely assumed msg may cause allergic reactions people stick natural things msg n't body good \( possibly harms , matter \) , bother \? taste food tasted , n't cloud flavor imaginary cloak msg understood , msg natural n't found tomatoes \? anyway , lots people terribly allergic lots natural things peanuts , , tomatoes , milk , etc something n't mean wo n't cause problems folks foods taste i'm allergic msg like taste , n't use \? saying n't use like saying n't eat spicy food neighbor ulcer people long modified taste food additives , whether , black pepper , salt , cream sauces , etc things cloud flavor food bother \? food tasted \? n't better left diner \? julie disclaimer opinions belong cat one else
magnus acs ohio state edu \( james hoskins \) subject cost nntp posting host photon magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university distribution na lines 5 anyone know approximate prescription cost 250 ml bottle \( morphine \) \? thanks
dufault lftfld enet dec com \( md \) subject seizures \( infantile spasms \) keywords seizures epilepsy reply dufault lftfld enet dec com \( md \) organization digital equipment corporation lines 32 reason i'm posting article newsgroup 1 gather information disorder anyone might recently e \( associated actually disorder \) 2 help find access medical literature associated seizures internet recently , baby boy born seizures occured 12 15 hours birth immediately transferred major hospital boston since undergoing extensive drug treatment condition major learning experience wife learning medical problems faced son also dealing hospitals , procedures etc n't want go lot detail , condition termed quite severe first slowly began grow put weight normal baby would put standard anti drugs seem help mri , ekg , cat scans normal , eeg 's show alot seizure activity many metabolic tests , body structure tests , infection virus tests doctors still know quite type \( although alot evidence pointing infantile spasms \) stand right anyone knows database newsgroup mentioned , information relating disorder would sure appreciate hearing trying play doctor , trying gather information know , particular types disorders still really well understood medical community , i'm going see somehow internet least give alittle insight thanks
noring netcom com \( jon noring \) subject good grief ! \( candida albicans \? \) organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 81 article rind enterprise bih harvard edu \( david rind \) writes article davpa ida liu se \( david partain \) writes someone know recently diagnosed candida albicans , disease find information apparently something body 's production yeast time highly allergic yeast anyone tell \? candida albicans cause severe life threatening infections , usually people otherwise quite ill , however , sort illness probably discussing systemic yeast syndrome body allergic yeast considered quack diagnosis mainstream medicine book yeast connection talks illness convincing evidence disease exists 's lot evidence , n't adequately gathered published way convince die hard melancholic skeptics quiver everytime word used example , dr ivker , wrote book sinus survival , always gives , treatment , systemic anti fungal \( nizoral \) new patients 've spectrum anti 4 times last two years 's kept record results , 2000 patients found 90 patients get significant relief allergic sinus symptoms course , beginning program case , reported weeks ago , developing classic symptoms outlined 'the yeast connection' \( agree poorly written book \) e g , extreme sensitivity plastics , , etc never \( started november \) within one week full dosage sporanox , sensitivity chemicals fully disappeared sit couch home without dying two minutes i'm also greatly improved areas well course , allergy symptoms , etc especially allergic molds , yeasts , etc n't take rocket scientist figure one excessive colonization yeast body , natural allergy yeasts , threshold would reached would perceptible symptoms also , yeast produce toxins various sorts , , n't rocket scientist realize toxins cause problems people case sinus since 's center allergic response course , 60 , 000 question whether person immune compromised \( tests showed 5 years antibiotics , deficiencies stress infections allergies , etc \) , develop excessive yeast colonization somewhere body tough question answer since testing excessive yeast colonization easy one almost take empirical approach diagnosis fortunately , sporanox relatively safe unlike past anti fungals \( still careful , however \) 's reason longer withhold sporanox treatment empirical reasons btw , would say try nystatin unfortunately , yeast grows hyphae deep tissue nystatin permanent affect 'll find lot people nystatin time summary , appreciate attempts desire keep medicine right road methinks hold firmly party line academics n't trenches long enough actually treating patients anybody , doctors included , said face evidence 'yeast connection' , cannot guarantee safety incompetence , ripping lips justified far concerned jon noring charter member infj club 're dying know infj means , brave , e mail , 'll send info jon noring noring netcom com jkn international ip 192 100 81 100 fred's gourmet chocolate 1312 carlton place phone \( 510 \) 294 8153 chips world 's best ! livermore , ca 94550 v mail \( 510 \) 417 4101 \? read alt psychology personality ! 's action
rick ysub ysu edu \( rick \) subject proventil inhaler organization youngstown state university lines 5 nntp posting host ysub ysu edu proventil inhaler asthma relief fall steroid category \? looking product literature 's clear rick ysu edu
ubvm cc buffalo edu subject barbecued foods health risk organization university buffalo lines 38 nntp posting host ubvm cc buffalo edu article cup portal com mmm cup portal com \( mark robert thorson \) writes n't understand assumption something found carcinogenic would legal u think , something called delany amendment makes carcinogenic food additives illegal amount passed congress 1950 's , stuff like mass became available , increased detectable levels substances couple orders magnitude things like red 2 banned weakly carcinogenic huge quantities rats , act banned also applies natural carcinogens might remember time back 1960 's root beer suddenly stopped good , never tasted good time banned active flavoring ingredient sassafras leaves possible market root beer good like old days , someone would , order make money fact one indicates enforcement still effect odd exception rule seems product known file' nothing ground dried sassafras leaves natural product , natural product still natural form , maybe 's evade delany maybe special exemption made , appease powerful louisiana democrats think keep mind even though may illegal commercially produce sell food carcinogenic substances , illegal people food \( smoking , etc \) true \?
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject new diet works great ! ! ! ! reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 17 article 1993apr13 omen uucp caf omen uucp \( chuck forsberg wa7kgx \) writes weight rebound term used medical literature obesity denote weight regain beyond lost diet cycle number terms mean one thing provide reference substantiate gaining back lost weight constitute weight rebound exceeds starting weight \? oral tradition shared among obesity researchers \? gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject diagnose lyme really reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 20 article 1993apr12 ns1 cc lehigh edu mcg2 ns1 cc lehigh edu \( marc gabriel \) writes , i'm saying best way diagnose 's hard culture bb cases point dr n developed feel n't ld comes years experience match unfortunately , would call dr n quack accuse trying make quick buck think would called quack \? quacks n't cultures poo poo lab tests lyme , believe , 've seen many times lab tests n't accurate 'll treat also , dr n 's practice almost exclusively devoted treating lyme patients \? n't know orthopedic surgeons fit pattern usually gps gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject could migraine \? reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 34 article uupcb factory com jim zisfein factory com \( jim zisfein \) writes headaches seriously interfere activities daily living affect 15 population n't sound like something primary care physician know something \? tend agree hmo administrators family physicians learn basics headache management absolutely unfortunately , 3 weeks neurology medical school 1 month \( maybe \) residency done hospital migraines rarely seen supposed learn \? diligent read learn , n't , unfortunately sometimes wonder tension type headaches neurology anyway ones , sometimes , enough interest headaches spend time get enough history diagnose often , primary care physician hears headache loses interest anything giving patient analgesics getting office get something interesting \( excepting migraine , arguably neurologic \) headaches hope meant gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject cause mental \? reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 35 article 1993apr13 1 cc edu cc edu writes chromosome studies shown abnormalities enzyme studies urine analyses turned anything ordinary mri images brain show scar tissue white matter subsequent mri analysis shown deterioration white matter progressive neither family history anything like , two four children afflicted disorder , believe metabolic disorder kind naturally , would like know exactly disease may gain insight expect disorder progress future would also like able provide normal children information expect children could one \( adrenal , boys get \) surely 've university pediatric neurology department next step might help , especially peripheral nerves also affected many diseases would fit symptoms gave ca n't said time agree surmise , normal children wo n't worry much unless marry near relatives genes rare except communities \( e g jews \) gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
dragon acadiau ca \( james r skinner \) subject paxil \( request \) organization acadia university lines 15 dragon acadiau ca \( james r skinner \) writes seen couple postings refering sri called paxil prozac number years recently switched seen bit prozac paxil none prozac one differences side effect profile etc anyone know \? james skinner school computer science james skinner dragon acadiau ca acadia university , , ns , canada
sandy pt cyanamid com \( sandy silverman \) subject barbecued foods health risk reply rousseaua immunex com 's message 19 apr 93 13 02 13 pst nntp posting host pt cyanamid com organization american cyanamid company terminator rs itd umich edu 1993apr19 69 immunex com lines 8 heat shock proteins whose expression induced response elevated temperature also made organisms subjected stress conditions , e g high salt obvious connection happens burn proteins sanford silverman opinions expressed american cyanamid sandy pt cyanamid com , pt cyanamid com yeast best
dougb comm mot com \( doug bank \) subject need radiologist read ultrasound \? reply dougb ecs comm mot com organization motorola land mobile products sector nntp posting host 145 1 146 35 lines 28 wife 's ob gyn ultrasound machine office doctor could n't hear fetal heartbeat \( 13 weeks \) used ultrasound see everything ok \( \) next visit , wife asked another doctor office read ultrasounds radiologist read pictures doctor vehemently insisted qualified read ultrasound ! wife concerned saw tv show couple months back \( something like 20 20 nbc , etc \) expert fetal ultrasounds \( radiologist \) showing different could detected using ultrasound wife concerned \? take pictures radiologist second opinion \? \( , would find expert chicago \? \) n't really special medical reason concerned , radiologist able see things ob gyn ca n't , n't see n't use one thoughts \? doug bank private systems division dougb ecs comm mot com motorola communications sector dougb nwu edu schaumburg , illinois dougb casbah acns nwu edu 708 576 8207
ls8139 albnyvms bitnet \( larry silverberg \) subject good grief ! \( candida albicans \? \) reply ls8139 albnyvms bitnet organization university albany , suny lines 126 article netcom com , noring netcom com \( jon noring \) writes article rind enterprise bih harvard edu \( david rind \) writes article davpa ida liu se \( david partain \) writes someone know recently diagnosed candida albicans , disease find information apparently something body 's production yeast time highly allergic yeast anyone tell \? lot info disease posting small amount extracted required , e mail ls8139 gemini albany edu please , takes time upload , advised , request really want info infotrac health reference center also , check local univeristy library likely infotrac cd rom info taken infotrac health reference center oct '89 oct '92 heading candida albicans ! dictionary definition 1 's medical nursing dictionary , 2nd edition copyright 1986 c v company candida albicans common , , , microscopic fungal organism normally present mucous membranes mouth , intestinal tract , vagina skin healthy people certain circumstances , may cause superficial infections mouth vagina , less commonly , serious invasive systemic infection toxic reaction see also candidiasis infotrac health reference center oct '89 oct '92 material contained health reference center oct '89 oct '92 provided informational purposes construed medical advice instruction consult health professional advice relating medical problem condition heading candida albicans 1 yogurt cure candida \( acidophilus \) il east west natural health july august '92 p17 \( 1 \) text available text copyright east west partners 1992 another folk remedy receives blessing medical study researchers found eating cup yogurt day drastically reduces woman 's chances getting vaginal candida , yeast infection year long study , researchers long island jewish medical center new park , new york , recruited 13 women suffered chronic yeast infections first 6 months , women day ate 8 ounces yogurt containing lactobacillus acidophilus second 6 months , women eat yogurt researchers examined women month found incidents colonization infection significantly lower period women ate yogurt fungus candida albicans live body without harm fungus leads infection researchers concluded l acidophilus bacteria found brands yogurt retard fungus l two bacteria commonly used commercial yogurt production neither one appears exert protective effect candida albicans , however women want try yogurt preventive measure choose brand lists acidophilus contents end infotrac health reference center oct '89 oct '92 material contained health reference center oct '89 oct '92 provided informational purposes construed medical advice instruction consult health professional advice relating medical problem condition heading candida albicans 1 candida \( monilia \) \( infections caused \) \( infectious diseases \) harold c neu columbia univ coll physicians surgeons complete home medical guide edition 2 '89 \( 1 \) text available text copyright crown publishers inc 1989 candida \( monilia \) disease usually caused candida albicans , fungus carry one time another circumstances , though , organisms , producing symptomatic infection mouth , intestines , vagina , skin mouth vagina infected , disease commonly called thrush caused candida often women birth control pills antibiotics white , cheesy discharge among addicts , candida infections lead heart valve inflammation diagnosis candida infections confirmed cultures blood tests treatment b orally evidence candida intestine normal individuals leads disease people one time another candida intestines claims benefit special diets chronic agents based solid evidence end hope informative larry live new york , 's saturday night tonight 's special guest lawrence silverberg state university new york albany aka ls8139 gemini albany edu
yozzo watson ibm com \( ralph yozzo \) subject diagnose lyme really disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host king arthur watson ibm com organization ibm j watson research center lines 29 article pitt uucp geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) writes article 1993apr12 ns1 cc lehigh edu mcg2 ns1 cc lehigh edu \( marc gabriel \) writes , i'm saying best way diagnose 's hard culture bb cases point dr n developed feel n't ld comes years experience match unfortunately , would call dr n quack accuse trying make quick buck think would called quack \? quacks n't cultures poo poo lab tests lyme , believe , 've seen many times lab tests n't accurate 'll treat also , dr n 's practice almost exclusively devoted treating lyme patients \? n't know orthopedic surgeons fit pattern usually gps arguing lyme lab test accurate \? books 've read say general tests 50 50 chance correct \( tests result large number false positives false negatives latter case \) could get odds rolling dice ralph yozzo \( yozzo watson ibm com \) beautiful historic new york state mid hudson valley
bhjelle carina unm edu \( \) subject barbecued foods health risk organization university new mexico , albuquerque lines 18 nntp posting host carina unm edu article edb acsu buffalo edu ubvm cc buffalo edu writes article cup portal com mmm cup portal com \( mark robert thorson \) writes , something called delany amendment makes carcinogenic food additives illegal amount passed congress think keep mind even though may illegal commercially produce sell food carcinogenic substances , illegal people food \( smoking , etc \) true \? whoa say name \? address , ssn \? smoking foods , eh \? think gov't would like know brian \)
draper gnd1 wtp gtefsd com \( pam draper \) subject info vasomotor rhinitis organization gte government systems , federal systems division , , va lines 20 distribution world reply draper gnd1 wtp gtefsd com nntp posting host gnd1 wtp gtefsd com news software vax vms vnews 1 3 4 recently attended seminar steroid nasal sprays discussed afterward one one basis , asked speaker none , , , , work oral work replied saw article vasomotor rhinitis allergic reaction nothing 's would work \( case true \) want find much possible , since going see may want armed information since nothing done helped relief 14 months please respond know anything please let know articles might helpful could look library
scri fsu edu \( nemo \) subject bates method myopia reply lin ray met fsu edu distribution na organization scri , florida state university lines 22 bates method work \? first heard newsgroup several years ago , got hold book , improve sight simple daily drills relaxation , margaret , \( instructor bates method \) , published 1953 talks vision improvement relaxation exercise study whether method actually works \? works , actually shortening previously eyeball , increasing lens 's ability flatten order compensate long eyeball \? since myopia result eyeball , seems logical approach correction find way reverse process , e , shorten somehow \( preferably non surgically \) recent studies \? find \? know rk works changing curvature cornea compensate shape eyeball , way train muscles shorten eyeball back correct length would even better \( bates 's idea , right \? \) thanks information
dyer spdcc com \( steve dyer \) subject good grief ! \( candida albicans \? \) organization p dyer computer consulting , cambridge article netcom com noring netcom com \( jon noring \) writes convincing evidence disease exists 's lot evidence , n't adequately gathered published way convince die hard melancholic skeptics quiver everytime word used snort ah , go sinuses example , dr ivker , wrote book sinus survival , always gives , oh , wow classic textbook hey , laughed einstein , ! treatment , systemic anti fungal \( nizoral \) new patients 've spectrum anti 4 times last two years 's kept record results , 2000 patients found 90 patients get significant relief allergic sinus symptoms course , beginning program yeah , 'll bet tomorrow , world listen , uncontrolled studies like worthless case , reported weeks ago , developing classic symptoms outlined 'the yeast connection' \( agree poorly written book \) e g , extreme sensitivity plastics , , etc never \( started november \) within one week full dosage sporanox , sensitivity chemicals fully disappeared sit couch home without dying two minutes i'm also greatly improved areas well i'm sure sound like typical responds miracle cures course , allergy symptoms , etc especially allergic molds , yeasts , etc n't take rocket scientist figure one excessive colonization yeast body , natural allergy yeasts , threshold would reached would perceptible symptoms yeah , makes sense , course taken seriously snort also , yeast produce toxins various sorts , , n't rocket scientist realize toxins cause problems people yeah , sounds reasonable course , 60 , 000 question whether person immune compromised \( tests showed 5 years antibiotics , deficiencies stress infections allergies , etc \) , oh , really \? tests \? immune compromised , ass like credulous psychiatric syndrome develop excessive yeast colonization somewhere body tough question answer since testing excessive yeast colonization easy one almost take empirical approach diagnosis fortunately , sporanox relatively safe unlike past anti fungals \( still careful , however \) 's reason longer withhold sporanox treatment empirical reasons know , 's shame drug like itraconazole misused way 's ridiculously expensive , potentially toxic trouble n't toxic enough , gets abused quacks btw , would say try nystatin unfortunately , yeast grows hyphae deep tissue nystatin permanent affect 'll find lot people nystatin time good thing nystatin 's \( relatively \) cheap taken orally , non toxic oral nystatin without systemic effect , unless given iv , would without effect sinuses wish quacks would first use iv nystatin b people like would solve yeast problem summary , appreciate attempts desire keep medicine right road methinks hold firmly party line academics n't trenches long enough actually treating patients anybody , doctors included , said face evidence 'yeast connection' , cannot guarantee safety incompetence , ripping lips justified far concerned perhaps little haldol would go long way towards symptoms paying treatment pocket \? 'd hate think insurance premiums going towards steve dyer dyer ursa major spdcc com aka ima , harvard , rayssd , linus , m2c ! spdcc ! dyer
subject star sp \? info wanted kmcvay oneb almanac bc ca \( ken mcvay \) organization old frog 's almanac lines 11 friend 's daughter diagnosed eye disease called star \( something close \) apparently genetic , according , affects every fourth generation would appreciate information condition anything available via ftp , please point right direction old frog 's almanac salute old frog hisse'f , ryugen fisher \( 604 \) 245 3205 \( v32 \) \( 604 \) 245 4366 \( 2400x4 \) sco xenix 2 3 2 gt ladysmith , british columbia , canada serving central vancouver island public access usenet internet mail home holocaust almanac
nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \( david nye \) subject seizures \( infantile spasms \) organization university wisconsin eau claire lines 19 reply dufault lftfld enet dec com \( md \) many metabolic tests , body structure tests , infection virus tests doctors still know quite type \( although alot evidence pointing infantile spasms \) stand right know , particular types disorders still really well understood medical community infantile spasms well understood quite time seeing pediatric neurologist , n't \? , strongly recommend new released called may particularly helpful infantile spasms learning seizures , ask doctor nurse local support group david nye \( nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \) midelfort clinic , eau claire wi patently absurd whoever wishes become philosopher must learn frightened absurdities bertrand russell
tea4two eng sun com \( alice taylor \) subject aids organization sun microsystems , inc lines 8 distribution world reply tea4two eng sun com nntp posting host tea4two friend mine seeing acupuncturist wants know danger getting aids needles thanks , alice
mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) subject info vasomotor rhinitis organization ai programs , university georgia , athens lines 15 nntp posting host aisun3 ai uga edu \( disclaimer i'm sufferer , doctor \) i'm sure 's really sharp distinction allergic vasomotor rhinitis basically , vasomotor rhinitis means nose reason \( even identifiable allergy \) steroid sprays work vasomotor rhinitis also , get surprising relief purely superficial measures spray gel michael covington , associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu university georgia phone 706 542 0358 athens , georgia 30602 7415 u amateur radio n4tmi
subject cancer treatment centers rohvm1 rohmhaas com organization rohm haas company lines 9 relative mine recently diagnosed stage 3 cell cancer urgently seeking best place country treatment anyone suggestions \? might suspect , time essence thanks help bob
subject broken rib jc oneb almanac bc ca organization old frog 's almanac , nanaimo , b c keywords advice needed summary long term problems \? lines 17 hello , sure right conference ask question , however , go commercial fisherman fell 3 weeks ago hold boat broke cracked rib bruised back left arm question , doctor told best nothing would heal long term effect , indeed 60 better , however , work hard still able go back work thing worries movement feel hear back move certain ways heard one talking rib broke years ago still bothers opinions \? thanx cheers jc oneb almanac bc ca \( john cross \) old frog 's almanac \( home almanac unix users group \) \( 604 \) 245 3205 \( v32 \) public access usenet \( 604 \) 245 4366 \( 2400x4 \) vancouver island , british columbia waffle xenix 1 64
euclid mrcnext cso uiuc edu \( euclid k \) subject aids organization university illinois urbana lines 18 tea4two eng sun com \( alice taylor \) writes friend mine seeing acupuncturist wants know danger getting aids needles ask practitioner whether uses pre disposable needles , needles , use former case 's conceivable way get aids needles latter case 's highly unlikely \( though many practitioners use disposable variety anyway \) euclid euclid k standard disclaimers apply bit ironic need wave model light understand propagation light part system leaves trace hudson nelson \( university physics \)
lrc edu subject hismanal , et al side effects organization rhyne college , hickory , nc lines 22 someone tell whether following medications linked rapid excessive weight gain distorted sense taste smell hismanal \( topical steroid prevent asthma \) also may guessed , i'm allergy sufferer i'm beginning suspect i'm also victim dr prescription p went last oct simply inquired \( suffering chronic asthma attacks \) , gave battery allergy tests , went drugs \( sheet \) 've gained 30 lbs since though n't eaten much differently depression , fatigue 've experienced foul smell sense taste last two months mentioned lack smell taste dr feb said sinuses look bit swollen \( looked nose little light one used ears \) , prescribed prednisone ds \( severe headaches rash resulted , particularly week 's worth prednisone ran \) wants see bleeding ulcer sinus i'm considering seeing another doctor suggestions advice \? 'd really appreciate !
tas pegasus com \( len howard \) subject endometriosis summary rare condition organization pegasus , honolulu lines 17 article 1993apr16 rock concert net naomi rock concert net \( naomi \) writes anyone give information regarding endometriosis \? heard 's common disease among women anyone provide names specialist surgeon north carolina research triangle park area \( raleigh durham chapel hill \) familiar condition , would really appreciate thanks naomi naomi , best bet look yellow pages find listing doc area wish doc familiar endometriosis treatments shalom len howard md
eliezer physics llnl gov \( david eliezer \) subject questions spect imaging organization lawrence livermore national laboratory lines 25 distribution world reply eliezer physics llnl gov \( david eliezer \) nntp posting host physics llnl gov keywords pet , spect , resolution become involved project develop improve performance spect \( single photon emission computerized \) imaging eventually stuff somewhere , move thing along , would like know current resolution spect imaging \? kinds jobs spect used , specifically \? kind specific jobs could hope spect could used , resolution improved , say , close pet \( positron emission \) \? much spect machine cost \? much single spect image cost \? anyone knows answer questions , could find answer , would grateful , indeed thanks advance replies dave eliezer eliezer physics llnl gov
homer tripos com \( webster homer \) subject mind machines \? summary mind machines work \? keywords mind sleep light sound organization tripos associates , inc lines 19 recently learned devices supposedly induce specific brain wave frequencies users simply wearing mind machines consist led , head phones , microprocessor controls strobe \( closed \) eye send sound pulses sync flashing leds understand devices experimental , available 've heard claims induce sleep , light states relaxation essentially supposed work without aid drugs etc would think work reported would incredibly useful , sources 've seen biased \( selling things , friend tried claims every home one \) mind machines \( aka light sound machines \) work \? induce alpha , theta , delta waves person wearing \? research done \? could used tranquilizer \? another bit quackery \? web homer homer tripos com
mmatusev radford vak12ed edu \( melissa n matusevich \) subject paxil \( request \) organization virginia 's public education network \( radford \) lines 5 n't know much fact , asked questions doctor told paxil cleaner sri produces fewer side effects comparison zoloft prozac , i'm able remember said differences two drugs sorry
subject burzynski 's antineoplastons jschwimmer wccnet wcc wesleyan edu \( josh schwimmer \) distribution world organization wesleyan university , middletown , ct usa nntp posting host consultants con wesleyan edu lines 20 've recently listened tape dr burzynski , claims discovered series naturally occuring anti cancer properties names antineoplastons burzynski says work met hostility united states , despite favorable responses subjects clinical trials generally accepted opinion dr burzynski 's research \? paints lone researcher new breakthrough battling intolerant medical establishment , basis judge claims two weeks ago , however , read nih 's department alternative medicine decided focus attention burzynski 's work budget small imagine would n't investigate treatment n't seem promising opinions burzynski 's antineoplastons information current status research would appreciated joshua schwimmer jschwimmer eagle wesleyan edu
kxgst1 pitt edu \( kenneth gilbert \) subject need radiologist read ultrasound \? organization university pittsburgh lines 31 article 1993apr20 lmpsbbs comm mot com dougb ecs comm mot com writes wife 's ob gyn ultrasound machine office doctor could n't hear fetal heartbeat \( 13 weeks \) used ultrasound see everything ok \( \) next visit , wife asked another doctor office read ultrasounds radiologist read pictures doctor vehemently insisted qualified read ultrasound ! stuff deleted one sticky areas medicine battles frequently rage respect ob , suspect certified ultrasound diagnostics , thus allowed use bill use many also use ultrasound \( \) , fact considered many 'experts' sure stand regard , suspect least good \( flame suit ready \) kenneth gilbert university pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit , programmer !
vida mdavcr mda ca \( vida morkunas \) subject altitude adjustment summary adjust 9000 ft come sea level organization macdonald dettwiler , commerce parkway , richmond , bc , canada v6v 2j3 lines 20 live sea level , called upon travel high altitude cities quite frequently , business cities question 7000 9000 feet altitude one especially polluted often feel faint first two three days feel , heart seems pound lot sea level also , dry cities , tend drink lot water , keep away drinks , containing caffeine alcohol thing , still symptoms ensure short trips \( , n't usually week \) comfortable possible \? something else could \? long time ago \( possibly two years ago \) discussion altitude adjustment anyone saved messages \? many thanks , vida
kxgst1 pitt edu \( kenneth gilbert \) subject info vasomotor rhinitis organization university pittsburgh lines 21 article europa eng gtefsd com draper gnd1 wtp gtefsd com writes recently attended seminar steroid nasal sprays discussed afterward one one basis , asked speaker none , , , , work oral work replied saw article vasomotor rhinitis allergic reaction nothing 's would work \( case true \) recent research vasomotor rhinitis shows \( \) inhaled effective treatment many sufferers approved use available nasal adaptor canada us fda yet approve use drug , available oral inhaler \( \) , adapted use kenneth gilbert university pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit , programmer !
calgary chevron com \( greg w \) subject relief pain caused cancer organization chevron lines 51 sure proper group post goes anyway five years ago mother diagnosed cancer lymph nodes one arms doctors removed area full movement arm slight arm moved course next two years got severe complaining doctors produced explanation scar tissue causing pain time doctor suggested employed break scar tissue attending one therapy sessions , arm manipulated , damage occured \( nerve \? \) caused level pain permanently increase severly \( controlled tylenol 3s \) loss use arm \( wrist almost outward lateral movement \) great persistence part doctors looked issue discovered cancer removed another tumor grown arm removed also pain arm decreased doctors sure exactly pain feel sort nerve damage occured employed tylenol 3 soon morphine relieve pain tried acupuncture provides minor reductions pain short term questions anyone heard similar cases , anything , done reduce levels pain \? methods block nerves pain reduced \? methods restore nerves loss arm function restored \? general suggestions pain reduction would greatly appreciated please respond email always get chance read group anyone knows literature may useful case another newsgroup posting would also appreciated gregory w internet calgary chevron com chevron petroleum company tel \( 403 \) 234 500 , fifth ave w fax \( 403 \) 234 calgary , alberta , canada
daniel prince f129 n102 z1 calcom socal com \( daniel prince \) subject , fibromyalgia syndrome cfs lines 11 nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \( david nye \) person fido cfs echo claims cured cfs taking accutane also claims using treatment fibromyalgia syndrome using accutane treatment fibromyalgia syndrome \? used cfs \? gotten good results \? aware double blind studies use accutane conditions \? thank advance replies think rename waco tx wacko tx !
huey udel edu \( john berryhill , ph \) subject krillean photography nntp posting host huey udel edu organization little scraps paper , mostly lines 10 think means photography good place find non little places usually say books outside building black white john berryhill
aldridge netcom com \( jacquelin aldridge \) subject good grief ! \( candida albicans \? \) organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 121 dyer spdcc com \( steve dyer \) writes article netcom com noring netcom com \( jon noring \) writes convincing evidence disease exists 's lot evidence , n't adequately gathered published way convince die hard melancholic skeptics quiver everytime word used snort ah , go sinuses example , dr ivker , wrote book sinus survival , always gives , oh , wow classic textbook hey , laughed einstein , ! treatment , systemic anti fungal \( nizoral \) new patients 've spectrum anti 4 times last two years 's kept record results , 2000 patients found 90 patients get significant relief allergic sinus symptoms course , beginning program yeah , 'll bet tomorrow , world listen , uncontrolled studies like worthless case , reported weeks ago , developing classic symptoms outlined 'the yeast connection' \( agree poorly written book \) e g , extreme sensitivity plastics , , etc never \( started november \) within one week full dosage sporanox , sensitivity chemicals fully disappeared sit couch home without dying two minutes i'm also greatly improved areas well i'm sure sound like typical responds miracle cures course , allergy symptoms , etc especially allergic molds , yeasts , etc n't take rocket scientist figure one excessive colonization yeast body , natural allergy yeasts , threshold would reached would perceptible symptoms yeah , makes sense , course taken seriously snort also , yeast produce toxins various sorts , , n't rocket scientist realize toxins cause problems people yeah , sounds reasonable course , 60 , 000 question whether person immune compromised \( tests showed 5 years antibiotics , deficiencies stress infections allergies , etc \) , oh , really \? tests \? immune compromised , ass like credulous psychiatric syndrome develop excessive yeast colonization somewhere body tough question answer since testing excessive yeast colonization easy one almost take empirical approach diagnosis fortunately , sporanox relatively safe unlike past anti fungals \( still careful , however \) 's reason longer withhold sporanox treatment empirical reasons know , 's shame drug like itraconazole misused way 's ridiculously expensive , potentially toxic trouble n't toxic enough , gets abused quacks btw , would say try nystatin unfortunately , yeast grows hyphae deep tissue nystatin permanent affect 'll find lot people nystatin time good thing nystatin 's \( relatively \) cheap taken orally , non toxic oral nystatin without systemic effect , unless given iv , would without effect sinuses wish quacks would first use iv nystatin b people like would solve yeast problem summary , appreciate attempts desire keep medicine right road methinks hold firmly party line academics n't trenches long enough actually treating patients anybody , doctors included , said face evidence 'yeast connection' , cannot guarantee safety incompetence , ripping lips justified far concerned perhaps little haldol would go long way towards symptoms paying treatment pocket \? 'd hate think insurance premiums going towards steve dyer dyer , 're rude medicine scientific 's often practiced disorganized manner early treatment non life threatening illness done guess , anecdotal evidence given patient 's educated guess , trained person , 's still guess 's cheaper simpler first deal people n't respond diseases n't described yet root cause many diseases described n't known \( read book gastroenterology sometime want see lot \) scientific methods run 's patient 's freedom choice try experimental method choose 's well recognized many doctors medicine n't answers person said relief taking medicine maybe 's miracle cure , maybe 's valid know \? might argue reasoning , conclusions disparaging attack unwarranted n't present convincing argument r beliefs , instead wasting time ad hominem attack jackie
dyer spdcc com \( steve dyer \) subject hismanal , et al side effects organization p dyer computer consulting , cambridge lines 15 article 1993apr20 820 lrc edu lrc edu writes someone tell whether following medications linked rapid excessive weight gain distorted sense taste smell hismanal \( topical steroid prevent asthma \) hismanal \( astemizole \) definitely linked weight gain really peculiar antihistamines effect , even antihistamine like astemizole purportedly n't cross blood brain barrier tends cause drowsiness steve dyer dyer ursa major spdcc com aka ima , harvard , rayssd , linus , m2c ! spdcc ! dyer
wcsbeau superior carleton ca \( opirg \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? organization carleton university , ottawa , canada lines 101 article 1993apr15 walter bellcore com jchen ctt bellcore com writes funny thing personaly stories reactions msg vary greatly said heart beat flush face claim heart skipped beats symptoms related getting flushed face due heart pumping blood faster regular pulse suspect related increase sodium levels blood , since note sodium chloride monosodium glutamate sodium compounds bodies require sodium , like everything else , one get much good thing reacted headache , , could related increased blood flow increased heart rate , sodium msg , essentially one many causes headaches , necessarily stomach ache well ache vomiting tend related , necessarily likely related reaction vomiting occurs response get rid noxious compound organism eaten person ca n't digest stuff \( entirely possible list stuff people allergic quite long \) , lacks enzyme break , gastrointestinal distress \( stomach belly ache \) would expected eyes running nose , respiratory reactions , considered similar way body dispose noxious compounds responses course , possible food environmental compound could responsible symptoms 's important remember lot additive , , , etc , etc would necessary know exactly dish , else person exposed respiratory sound suspicious heart rate connected things body far simple place , body itchy skin rashes people respond myriad ways compound depends upon compound pisses body , example , plants breathing many people , , inhaled , sets immune system , attack launched immune system goes overboard , causing allergic person lot misery someone allergy trouble herb contain \( , linden , etc \) drinking substance person 's system much serious accusations include difficulty see n't think heart rate changes , problems serious deadly brain damage area brain effected system controlling release , supra hormone controlling cyclical release testosterone , well , steroids testing effective dose would , uh , wee bit unethical new one vomiting guess msg becomes number one suspect problem case might food poisoning absolutely could also mess eating , say , undetected mushrooms \( many allergic \) , plus much alcohol , much diesel fumes biking home , plus , let 's say , contracted flu one 's sig 3 days drinking glass could sorts things might msg heard things msg , may think must noone else got sick , likely food poisoning probably stomach flu undetected thing guy 's allergic anyway , human body 's machine people vary widely responses , lot reactions due combinations things dianne murray wcsbeau ccs carleton ca
mmm cup portal com \( mark robert thorson \) subject \( eugenics \) organization portal system \( tm \) cup portal com saltillo cs utexas edu lines 41 person posted certain stuff newsgroup , highly selected quotes stripped context complete posting quoted \( lacking context postings made \) probably within 50 years , new type eugenics possible maybe even sooner mapping human genome start work manipulation genome using genetic engineering , able insert whatever genes want breeding , , etc ethical question , \? make race disease free , long lived , arnold schwartzenegger muscled , supermen \? even probably within 50 years , possible disassemble assemble bodies molecular level flawless cosmetic surgery possible , flawless cosmetic like store prices shelf priced bar coded goods head , catch errors make store 's favor safeway \? like mentally edit spell check responses questions posed phone caller selling vacation time share options \? indeed , today nation risk ! threat bad genes , bad memes ! memes basic units culture , opposed genes units genetics stand brink new meme amplification technologies ! harmful memes formerly restricted destructive power run rampant countryside , laying waste real benefits future technology offer example , jeremy busy trying whip emotions new genetically engineered tomatoes development guy inventing harmful memes , virtual memetic mary must expand public health laws include people harmful memes allowed infect people memes genetically engineered food , electromagnetic fields , space shuttle solid rocket boosters
brian quake sylmar ca us \( brian k \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? organization quake public access , san fernando valley , ca \( 818 \) 362 lines 92 ever met chemist \? food industry businessman \? must personally know lot able certain evil whose goal inflict much pain disease possible general public gimme break article 1993apr15 3401 rtsg mot com lundby rtsg mot com \( walter f l \) writes thing msg \( monosodium glutamate \) sensitivity \? superstition anybody experience contrary \? person sensitive msg whose wife kids , want know food industry wants put msg food ! ! ! makes food taste better ! put salt food \? reason really understand ! ! ! obviously somebody industry give reasons ! industrial byproduct needs getting get rid \? course ! \( although would think person like would big fan case \) cover fact recipes good food poor quality \? occasion 's probably case , general idea msg improves flavor certain foods get sadistic pleasure making us sick \? taste testers defect flavor sensors \( mouth etc \) msg corrects \? really understand ! ! ! obviously also \( sp \) recall , natural products heating certain foods n't put number criteria choosing process food want make taste good , look good , sell good price , etc fact use tells think contributes goals interested one goals making people sick goal quickly drive business benefit think 1 \) outlaw use substances without warning labels large packages warning \? california law requiring anything contains carcinogen labeled includes every pump , foods , even money cleaning machines \( nickel mild carcinogen \) result nobody pays attention warnings 2 \) require 30 comparable products market free substances state free msg , , package \? 30 people wanted buy ugly , rotten , tasty food \? guess wasted , huh \? terribly efficient 3 \) outlaw yellow dye 5 matter dye food \? makes food look better like food looks good vitamin companies want fine , tell make vitamins \? tell whether buy vitamins kids \( ca n't swallow conventional ones whole \) keep food food ! quit putting junk ! define junk \? putting salt food bad \? pepper \? alcohol \? sealing wax \? vinegar \? seem think chemicals somehow different food fact foods 100 chemicals expressing irrational prejudice food processing brian
keating anu edu au \( new , improved brian \) subject krillean photography organization australian national university lines 44 nntp posting host 150 203 126 9 reply todamhyp charles unlv edu 's message mon , 19 apr 93 20 56 15 gmt reply todamhyp charles unlv edu 's message mon , 19 apr 93 20 56 15 gmt newsgroups sci energy , sci image processing , sci anthropology , alt sci physics new theories , sci skeptic , sci med , alt alien visitors subject krillean photography references 1993apr19 205615 1013 unlv edu distribution text follows line todamhyp charles unlv edu \( brian huey \) writes looking information supplies allow yourselfers take krillean pictures i'm thinking education suppliers schools might appartus sale , n't know companies info greatly appreciated case n't know , krillean photography , best knowledge , involves taking pictures \( time \) organic object charged plates picture show energy patterns spikes around object photographed , depending type object , spikes energy patterns vary one might extrapolate say proves every object within universe \( know \) energy signature number scientific papers \( peer reviewed journals \) published kirlian photography early 1970s sorry ca n't specific long time since read would describe needed set apparatus papers demonstrate auras obtained kirlian photography completely explained effect electric currents used moisture object photographed nothing energy signature organic objects science project kirlian photography high school able obtain wonderful auras rocks pebbles like first water barbara anu edu au generally avoid temptation unless ca n't resist mae west
cleveland freenet edu \( mike e romano \) subject home medical tests organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 21 nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu looking current sources lists home medical tests currently legally available believe trend allowing tests home feasible , decreased medical costs factor 10 allows patient time privacy consider best action results tests fact believe home medical tests certain basic tests serious diseases cancer , heart disease , offered free american public could actually help reduce national medical costs since many would earlier opportunity know work toward cure mike romano sir , admit rule every poet fool may serve show , every fool poet pope
ron roth rose com \( ron roth \) subject selective placebo x gated usenet rosemail gateway \( v1 70 \) organization rose media inc , toronto , ontario lines 55 jb romdas uclink berkeley edu \( ella baff \) writes jb jb ron roth recommends hypoglycemia confirmed jb proper channels , might consider following jb diet omitted jb jb 1 \) ron consider proper channels sounds suspiciously i'm glad caught eye 's purpose forum educate , eager learn , facts life phrase used frenzy would respondents , otherwise would feel left proper authorities consulted topic short , means absolutely nothing jb like blood chemistry glucose tolerance like suddenly chemistry jb exists \? know perfectly well person saved needless trouble jb expense simple muscle testing hair analysis diagnose jb confirm aberrant physiology maybe 's mean muscle testing hair analysis , eh \? fascinating space age medical techniques use \? sit pyramid night well shrink brain back normal mind expanding day clinic \? jb 2 \) able understand dick king 's post 90 diseases thy jb evaluate statistic cited new england journal medicine \? figure trying say , 'll still possibility conceivably able understand answer question \? ! jb 3 \) ron ever thought never post misc health jb insist instead upon insinuating untrained , non medical , often jb delusional notions health disease forum \? suspect jb apparent anger toward mds medicine may little rascal ! got figured , ja \? jb underlying problem' course confirm surrogate muscle jb testing one patients ponder theory see one jb previously weak muscles strengthens reservations jb unique methods diagnosis \? jb jb john badanes , dc , ca jb romdas uclink berkeley edu oh man , going start teaching stuff \? 'll bet everyone net must absolutely dying learn going beyond spinal adjustments head straight mind freudian subluxation ron rosereader 2 00 p003228 next world , 're rosemail 2 10 usenet rose media hamilton \( 416 \) 575 5363
caf omen uucp \( chuck forsberg wa7kgx \) subject new diet works great ! ! ! ! organization omen technology inc , portland rain forest lines 33 article pitt uucp geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) writes article 1993apr13 omen uucp caf omen uucp \( chuck forsberg wa7kgx \) writes weight rebound term used medical literature obesity denote weight regain beyond lost diet cycle number terms mean one thing provide reference substantiate gaining back lost weight constitute weight rebound exceeds starting weight \? oral tradition shared among obesity researchers \? one , two obesity europe 88 , proceedings 1st european congress obesity annals ny acad sci 1987 gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon chuck forsberg wa7kgx ! tektronix ! reed ! omen ! caf author ymodem , zmodem , professional yam , zcomm , dsz omen technology inc high reliability software 17505 v nw sauvie rd portland 97231 503 621 3406
doyle pitt edu \( howard r doyle \) subject broken rib keywords advice needed organization pittsburgh transplant institute lines 28 article oneb almanac bc ca jc oneb almanac bc ca writes fell 3 weeks ago hold boat broke cracked rib bruised back left arm question , doctor told best nothing would heal long term effect , indeed 60 better , however , work hard still able go back work thing worries movement feel hear back move certain ways heard one talking rib broke years ago still bothers opinions \? doctor right best nothing , besides taking pain medication initially patients n't like expect , demand , something done cases physicians tape patient \( put lot heavy adhesive tape around chest \) , prescribe elastic binder make harder breath , patient n't feel cheated , done problem either way , end results howard doyle doyle pitt edu
nynexst com \( \) subject altitude adjustment reply nynexst com organization nynex science technology , inc lines 32 article mdavcr mda ca vida mdavcr mda ca \( vida morkunas \) writes live sea level , called upon travel high altitude cities quite frequently , business cities question 7000 9000 feet altitude one especially polluted mexico city , , la paz \? often feel faint first two three days feel , heart seems pound lot sea level also , dry cities , tend drink lot water , keep away drinks , containing caffeine alcohol thing , still symptoms ensure short trips \( , n't usually week \) comfortable possible \? something else could \? unconventional remedy might try altitude sickness chewing coca leaves taking made coca leaves might notice many natives mouths tea obtained american pharmacies remedy alleviates dizziness n't try 've tried travelling hiking amount cocaine would minute cause also good idea eat lightly dress warm adjusting high altitudes
pk115050 wvnvms wvnet edu subject help kidney stones organization west virginia network educational telecomputing lines 11 girlfriend pain kidney stones says medical insurance , cannot get removed question way treat , least mitigate effects \? help deeply appreciated \( advice , referral literature , etc \) thank , dave pk115050 wvnvms wvnet edu
subject disease kmcvay oneb almanac bc ca \( ken mcvay \) organization old frog 's almanac keywords lines 12 thanks aldridge netcom com , know bit 's disease , aka juvenile , would like learn first , general prognosis blindness result \? second , treatments , , available \? old frog 's almanac salute old frog hisse'f , ryugen fisher \( 604 \) 245 3205 \( v32 \) \( 604 \) 245 4366 \( 2400x4 \) sco xenix 2 3 2 gt ladysmith , british columbia , canada serving central vancouver island public access usenet internet mail home holocaust almanac
levin bbn com \( joel b levin \) subject selective placebo lines 19 nntp posting host fred bbn com ron roth rose com \( ron roth \) writes jb romdas uclink berkeley edu \( ella baff \) writes jb jb ron roth recommends hypoglycemia confirmed jb proper channels , might consider following jb diet omitted jb jb 1 \) ron consider proper channels sounds suspiciously i'm glad caught eye 's purpose forum educate , eager learn , facts life phrase used frenzy would respondents , otherwise would feel left proper authorities consulted topic short , means absolutely nothing apt description content 's posts date least 's entertainment value \( though diminishing \)
molnar ca \( tom molnar \) subject sudden numbness arm organization utcc lines 30 experienced sudden numbness left arm morning completed 4th set deep today weight training day beginning routine sudden end 4th set arm felt like gone sleep cold , turned pale , lost 60 strength weight used n't heavy , working hard 100 effort waited minutes , trying shake arm back life continued chest exercises \( \) lighter normally use dropped left first set , experienced continued arm weakness second quit training decided usual hour ski machine either 'll take easy rest day arm still somewhat numb significantly weaker normal hand still bit thumb color returned normal longer cold horrid thoughts chunks plaque blocking major artery course brain i'm 34 , vegetarian , pretty fit daily exercise regimen ca n't could pinched nerve bar cause symptoms \( hope \) \? happened anyone else \? nothing like ever happened come age \? thanks , tom tom molnar unix systems group , university toronto computing communications
romdas uclink berkeley edu \( ella baff \) subject good grief ! \( candida albicans \? \) organization university california , berkeley lines 9 distribution world nntp posting host uclink berkeley edu anybody , doctors included , said face evidence 'yeast connection' , cannot guarantee safety incompetence , ripping lips justified far concerned n't sound like candida albicans john badanes , dc , ca romdas uclink berkeley edu
noring netcom com \( jon noring \) subject good grief ! \( candida albicans \? \) organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 32 article dyer spdcc com \( steve dyer \) writes article noring netcom com \( jon noring \) writes good grief anger \? must really touched raw nerve let 's see symptoms resisted treatments sporanox totally alleviated within one week hmmm , must psychotic ! 's illness mind thanks steve correct diagnosis must lot experience trenches , treating hundreds patients week thank i'm forever debt jon \( oops , gotta run , men white coats ready take away , haha , happy home , go thumbs , basket , moan sinuses \) charter member infj club 're dying know infj means , brave , e mail , 'll send info jon noring noring netcom com jkn international ip 192 100 81 100 fred's gourmet chocolate 1312 carlton place phone \( 510 \) 294 8153 chips world 's best ! livermore , ca 94550 v mail \( 510 \) 417 4101 \? read alt psychology personality ! 's action
helix enet dec com \( dave \) subject modified sense taste cancer pt \? keywords cancer organization digital equipment corporation lines 13 lack taste foods , sense taste seems eating foods someone cancer mean \? possible causes \? happen \? pt stage ii breast cancer , taking also stage iv lung cancer known cna , taking klonopin \( also cranial radiation treatments \) thanks ! doctor , trying understand family member 's illness
mryan stsci edu subject angry doctor \? lines 26 organization space telescope science institute distribution na justified pissed doctor \? last saturday evening 6 year old son cut finger badly knife took local urgent general care clinic 5 50 pm clinic open till 6 00 pm receptionist went back told doctor , came back told us doctor would see us someplace go 6 00 want delayed next minutes , response questions , several trips back room , receptionist told doctor paperwork back , doctor would even look finger advise us going emergency room doctor would even speak would tell doctor 's name , name asked charge clinic , said n't know realize private clinic emergency room , quite angry turned away doctor want bothered son get three stitches emergency room i'm still trying find charge clinic write letter certainly never set foot clinic mary ryan mryan stsci edu space telescope science institute baltimore , maryland
col hp com \( bill claussen \) subject alt psychoactives organization hp colorado springs division lines 35 nntp posting host col hp com fyi posted alt psychoactives response group note users alt psychoactives group originally takeoff sci med reason formation group discuss prescription psychoactive drugs \( tri , prozac , lithium , etc \) , \( \( sp \? \) , etc \) , ocd drugs \( , etc \) , forth n't take long group degenerate alt drugs atmosphere 's bad , serious folks wanted start group first place left gone back sci med , cypher hundreds unrelated articles find psychoactive data also discuss real life experiences side effects mentioned oh well , group time , decided check today see anything changed nope old nine ten crap articles group never intended think hard group without moderated bad oh well , obviously , one really cares bill claussen would anyone interested starting similar moderated group \? bill claussen
col hp com \( bill claussen \) subject angry doctor \? organization hp colorado springs division lines 5 distribution na nntp posting host col hp com report local bbb \( better business bureau \) bill claussen
ray engr latech edu \( bill ray \) subject , fibromyalgia syndrome cfs organization louisiana tech university lines 8 nntp posting host engr latech edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 daniel prince \( daniel prince f129 n102 z1 calcom socal com \) wrote think rename waco tx wacko tx ! know joke , please remember people waco ask david koresh lunatic , happened waco lovely town would think someone living home flakes nut would sensitive \)
noring netcom com \( jon noring \) subject good grief ! \( candida albicans \? \) organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 26 article romdas uclink berkeley edu \( ella baff \) writes anybody , doctors included , said face evidence 'yeast connection' , cannot guarantee safety incompetence , ripping lips justified far concerned n't sound like candida albicans , little anger normally n't rip people 's lips , except candida become fungus man ! \) jon charter member infj club 're dying know infj means , brave , e mail , 'll send info jon noring noring netcom com jkn international ip 192 100 81 100 fred's gourmet chocolate 1312 carlton place phone \( 510 \) 294 8153 chips world 's best ! livermore , ca 94550 v mail \( 510 \) 417 4101 \? read alt psychology personality ! 's action
dyer spdcc com \( steve dyer \) subject thrush \( \( good grief ! \( candida albicans \? \) \) \) organization p dyer computer consulting , cambridge lines 34 article ucsvax sdsu edu mccurdy ucsvax sdsu edu \( mccurdy \) writes dyer beyond rude yeah , yeah , yeah n't threaten rip lips , \? snort always people blinded knowledge anything n't already established given medical community n't know , i'm surprised outlook duh record , several outbreaks thrush several past years , indication nutritional deficiencies taken listen thrush recognized clinical syndrome definite characteristics thrush , thrush , see lesions culture treat , generally responds well , 're otherwise noring 's anal retentive fungal infection sinuses even category , walking convinced candida reading quack book dentist \( sees fair amount thrush \) recommended acidophilous began taking acidophilous daily basis , outbreaks ceased quit taking acidophilous , outbreaks periodically resumed resumed taking acidophilous outbreaks since \? steve dyer dyer ursa major spdcc com aka ima , harvard , rayssd , linus , m2c ! spdcc ! dyer
noring netcom com \( jon noring \) subject need reference multiple personalities disorders allergies organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 28 heard third hand \( best form information \) recently published results study multiple personality disorder syndrome patients revealing interesting clues root cause allergy may psychological trigger basis heard study one , patient exhibited observable clinical signs allergy \( scratch tests used , according heard \) , personalities showed obvious allergy symptoms , including testing full scratch tests particular inhalants true , truly fascinating , 'd like know study ever done , , study really showed , study published help \? jon noring charter member infj club 're dying know infj means , brave , e mail , 'll send info jon noring noring netcom com jkn international ip 192 100 81 100 fred's gourmet chocolate 1312 carlton place phone \( 510 \) 294 8153 chips world 's best ! livermore , ca 94550 v mail \( 510 \) 417 4101 \? read alt psychology personality ! 's action
bhjelle carina unm edu \( \) subject new diet works great ! ! ! ! organization university new mexico , albuquerque lines 19 nntp posting host carina unm edu article 1993apr21 omen uucp caf omen uucp \( chuck forsberg wa7kgx \) writes article pitt uucp geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) writes provide reference substantiate gaining back lost weight constitute weight rebound exceeds starting weight \? oral tradition shared among obesity researchers \? one , two obesity europe 88 , proceedings 1st european congress obesity annals ny acad sci 1987 hmmm n't look like references passive aggressive behavior associated weight rebound \? \) brian
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject food related seizures \? reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 21 article 116305 bu edu dozonoff bu edu \( david ozonoff \) writes many cereals corn based post looked literature located two articles implicated corn \( contains tryptophan \) seizures idea corn diet might potentiate already existing latent seizure disorder , cause check see two kellog cereals corn based 'd interested years ago intern , obese young woman brought er comatose reported grand mal seizures attending corn festival pumped stomach obtained seemed like couple liters corn , much intact hours woke fine tempted sign acute corn intoxication gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject help kidney stones reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 17 article 1993apr21 wvnvms wvnet edu pk115050 wvnvms wvnet edu writes girlfriend pain kidney stones says medical insurance , cannot get removed question way treat , least mitigate effects \? help deeply appreciated \( advice , referral literature , morphine effective way stopping pain severe obviously , 'll need prescription get drugs ca n't go county hospital something \? gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
romdas uclink berkeley edu \( ella baff \) subject getting aids acupuncture needles organization university california , berkeley lines 44 distribution world nntp posting host uclink berkeley edu someone wrote expressing concern getting aids acupuncture needles unless friend sharing fluids acupuncturist aids unlikely \( impossible \) get aids acupuncture needles generally , even accidently , normal immune response enough effectively handle minimal involved acupuncture needle insertion use disposable needles use throw away one concerned transmission diseases via route 's good business advertise disposable needles tend lower quality however , poorly manufactured sharp opinion tend snag insertion compared higher quality needles choose use acupuncture given complaint , patient get set new needles treatments risk hepatitis , hiv , etc transmission could mistakenly use infected persons needles accidently wrong patient clear labelling paying attention eliminates risk better quality needles tend slide past vessels nerves avoiding unpleasant painful use acupuncture needles come many lengths solid compared injection style cousins china , western pharmaceuticals occasionally injected meridian points purported effects require hollow needles used injecting fluid medicine means amount tissue , diameter needle bore , injected body would typical shot skin hand solid acupuncture needle inserted , skin tends squeeze needle tip level insertion n't away alcohol insertion , tend remain surface skin minimizing invasion exterior course body 's exterior protected wei \( protective \) qi infection unlikely words normal inflammatory immune response tissue damage incurred puncture site i'm fairly certain friend transferable disease transmitted via acupuncture needle insertion , would like know complaint consulted acupuncturist know would harmful know would helpful john badanes , dc , ca romdas uclink berkeley edu
e j draper draper odin mda uth tmc edu subject need radiologist read ultrasound \? organization u anderson cancer center lines 25 distribution world nntp posting host mda uth tmc edu x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d17 x xxmessage id mda uth tmc edu x xxdate wed , 21 apr 93 15 19 48 gmt article blue cis pitt edu kenneth gilbert , kxgst1 pitt edu writes one sticky areas medicine battles frequently rage respect ob , suspect certified ultrasound diagnostics , thus allowed use bill use many also use ultrasound \( \) , fact considered many 'experts' sure stand regard , suspect least good \( flame suit ready \) wife , would insist radiologist involved process radiologist intensively trained process interpreting diagnostic imaging data aware many things physicians n't aware would want radiologist deliver baby \? would n't , would want ob gyn read ultrasound study \? opinion process involve ob gyn radiologist e j ed draper institute university texas anderson cancer center draper odin mda uth tmc edu
mrl pfc mit edu \( mark london \) subject corneal erosion organization mit plasma fusion center lines 11 nntp posting host pfc mit edu several years dealing corneal erosion seem much known cause problem current episode pretty bad since located middle cornea 's bad enough , usual treatment puncture therapy however , doctor time trying let heal putting contact lens protect area apparently problem common , 'd curious anyone else similar problem , perhaps see cause found mark london mrl pfc mit edu
russ pmafire inel gov \( russ brown \) subject altitude adjustment organization winco lines 22 article mdavcr mda ca vida mdavcr mda ca \( vida morkunas \) writes live sea level , called upon travel high altitude cities quite frequently , business cities question 7000 9000 feet altitude one especially polluted mexico city , , la paz \? often feel faint first two three days feel , heart seems pound lot sea level also , dry cities , tend drink lot water , keep away drinks , containing caffeine alcohol thing , still symptoms ensure short trips \( , n't usually week \) comfortable possible \? something else could \? go three days early preliminary takes 3 4 days takes weeks months full could experiencing jet lag , \?
rind enterprise bih harvard edu \( david rind \) subject good grief ! \( candida albicans \? \) organization beth israel hospital , harvard medical school , boston mass , usa lines 40 nntp posting host enterprise bih harvard edu article netcom com noring netcom com \( jon noring \) writes article rind enterprise bih harvard edu \( david rind \) writes convincing evidence disease exists 's lot evidence , n't adequately gathered published way convince die hard melancholic skeptics quiver everytime word used , 's evidence would convince credulous evidence identical sort evidence used justify sorts quack treatments quack diseases past medicine right road methinks hold firmly party line academics n't trenches long enough actually treating patients like implication must quacks making millions diseases biased rather doubt existence n't understand real world seems easy picture 19th snake oil salesman saying thing however , trenches long enough seen multiple quack diseases rise fall popularity systemic yeast seems making resurgence \( fallen years ago \) new diseases i'm sure best selling books expensive therapies anybody , doctors included , said face evidence 'yeast connection' , cannot guarantee safety incompetence , ripping lips justified far concerned well , course , convincing guess 'd better start diagnosing illnesses people want keep lips david rind rind enterprise bih harvard edu
organization arizona state university asuacad bitnet subject burzynski 's antineoplastons distribution world lines 16 good source information burzynski 's method cancer industry prize nominee ralph moss also , non profit organization called people cancer , formed purpose allowing cancer patients access information regarding cancer therapies endorsed cancer industry , shown highly promising results \( non toxic \) anyone interested cancer therapy contact organi asap people cancer po box 10 ia \( 515 \) 972 4444 fax \( 515 \) 972 peace greg
cbnewse cb att com \( gilbert stewart \) subject \? organization keywords lines 7 anyone information effects origin \? 's marketed name , appears anti inflammatory similar \? stronger \? tia gms
mccurdy ucsvax sdsu edu \( mccurdy \) subject thrush \( \( good grief ! \( candida albicans \? \) \) \) organization san diego state university lines 36 distribution world nntp posting host ucsvax sdsu edu news software vax vms vnews 1 4 b1 article netcom com , aldridge netcom com \( jacquelin writes dyer spdcc com \( steve dyer \) writes etc dyer , 're rude medicine scientific 's often practiced disorganized manner early treatment non life threatening illness done guess , anecdotal evidence given patient 's educated guess , trained person , 's still guess 's cheaper simpler first deal people n't respond dyer beyond rude always people blinded knowledge anything n't already established given medical community n't know , i'm surprised outlook record , several outbreaks thrush several past years , indication nutritional deficiencies taken dentist \( sees fair amount thrush \) recommended acidophilous began taking acidophilous daily basis , outbreaks ceased quit taking acidophilous , outbreaks periodically resumed resumed taking acidophilous outbreaks since mike mccurdy university computing services disclaimer san diego state university mccurdy ucsvax sdsu edu everything say may wrong
jason ab20 larc nasa gov \( jason austin \) subject barbecued foods health risk organization nasa langley research center , hampton , va lines 28 reply jason c austin j c austin larc nasa gov nntp posting host ab20 larc nasa gov reply rsilver world std com 's message sat , 17 apr 1993 15 02 18 gmt article world std com rsilver world std com \( richard silver \) writes recent postings remind read risks associated barbecuing foods , namely carcinogens generated valid concern \? , function smoke elevated temperatures \? function cooking elements , wood charcoal vs lava rocks \? wish know thanks 've read mixed opinions meat contain carcinogens , unless eat barbecued meat every meal , 're probably much risk think live life edge grill food 've also read using petroleum based charcoal starter put unwanted toxins food , least unwanted 've using egg carton cups fire starters , actually lights faster easier lighter fluid several people told excellent results chimney , basically steel cylinder punched side 've meaning get one , one n't presented 've shopping make one coffee , buy coffee whole beans bag , n't big enough laying around jason c austin j c austin larc nasa gov
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject seizures \( infantile spasms \) keywords seizures epilepsy reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 23 article 1993apr20 dec com dufault lftfld enet dec com \( md \) writes anyone knows database newsgroup mentioned , information relating disorder would sure appreciate hearing trying play doctor , trying gather information know , particular types disorders still really well understood medical community , i'm going see somehow internet least give alittle insight thanks database infantile spasms , newsgroup , know medical library best source information gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject diagnose lyme really reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 19 article watson ibm com yozzo watson ibm com \( ralph yozzo \) writes think would called quack \? quacks n't cultures poo poo lab tests lyme , believe , 've arguing lyme lab test accurate \? culture spirochete , virtually 100 certain patient lyme suppose could contamination exceptionally sloppy lab , normally false positives gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject ob gyn residency reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 30 article terminator rs itd umich edu donald mackie med umich edu \( donald mackie \) writes fmgs citizens , like aliens , difficult situation citizens get vote , non citizens little interest legislators also , non citizen may well middle processing resident alien status sense rocking boat \( eg suing residency program \) delay granting status , perhaps ever one aware foreign doctors admitted training apply resident alien status order get green card return country apply embassy course , many somehow get around problem often agreeing practice town need congressman district rider onto bill saying dr x allowed permanent residency us lot bills congress riders attached marrying us citizen common , although even cracking trying tell us citizens must follow spouse back , whereever gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject liver spots reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 13 article 1993apr19 news eng convex com cash convex com \( peter cash \) writes causes little brown spots older people 's hands \? called liver spots 're sort liver colored , indicate actual liver dysfunction \? senile nothing liver gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
karl anasazi com \( karl \) subject dana faber cancer institute organization anasazi , inc phoenix , arizona usa keywords dana faber cancer institute lines 13 article 1993apr14 chalmers se chalmers se \( \) writes anyone send adress dana faber cancer institute boston , usa missing r dana cancer institute 44 street boston , 02115 \( 617 \) 732 3000 karl \( department epidemiology , 1983 1986 \)
dozonoff bu edu \( david ozonoff \) subject food related seizures \? lines 22 x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 sharon paulson \( paulson tab00 larc nasa gov \) wrote much deleted fact happened eating two sugar coated cereals made kellog 's makes think might allergic reaction something coating cereals four us immediate family , shows least signs hay fever , running nose , itchy eyes , etc lot allergies family history including weird food allergies nuts , mushrooms many cereals corn based post looked literature located two articles implicated corn \( contains tryptophan \) seizures idea corn diet might potentiate already existing latent seizure disorder , cause check see two kellog cereals corn based 'd interested david ozonoff , md , mph boston university school public health dozonoff med bu edu 80 east concord st , \( 617 \) 638 4620 boston ,
lauger ssdgwy mdc com \( john lauger \) subject imitrex heart attacks \? organization mcdonnell douglas aerospace lines 20 distribution world nntp posting host mdc com girlfriend started taking imitrex migraine headaches neurologist diagnosed depression suffering rebound headaches due daily doses analgesics stopped taking analgesics last thursday \( 4 15 \) weekend pretty bad , made help imitrex every 18 hours third injection imitrex , worst withdrawl friday six hours first day , left sick skin flushed , sweating , vomiting severe headache pain subsided hour since , taking imitrex needed control pain immediately taking , increased head pain ten minutes , dizziness mild nausea mild chest pains friend mentioned doctor wary imitrex caused heart attacks several people apparently mild chest pains common people prior attacks rumor \? anyone else heard symptoms \? girlfriend also valve opinions mine others definately mda 's ! lauger ssdgwy mdc com mcdonnell douglas aerospace , huntington beach , california , usa
nash lan nrc ca \( john nash \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? nntp posting host 132 246 164 10 organization national research council canada lines 39 article 1993apr15 135941 16105 lmpsbbs comm mot com dougb comm mot com \( doug bank \) writes dougb comm mot com \( doug bank \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? date thu , 15 apr 1993 13 59 41 gmt article 1993apr14 122647 16364 tms390 micro ti com , david tms390 micro ti com \( david thomas \) writes lots editing posts another anecdotal story picky eater never wanted try chinese food , however , finally tried order please girl seeing time never heard chinese restaurant syndrome group us went restaurant shared 6 different dishes n't taste great , decided n't bad went home went bed early woke 2 puked guts outs threw long \( i'm kidding \) pulled muscle tongue dry heaves everything one else got sick , i'm allergic anything know suffice say wont go chinese restaurant unless physically threatened smell food makes ill \( reaction \) dragged suffer beef broccoli without sauces , insist msg n't gotten sick yet funny wife \( girlfriend time \) used get sick eating certain foods various asian restaurants , never knew 'd go pale , sweaty vomit couple us connection msg , response msg \? 's \? also happened brands crackers chips noticed \( later \) msg label n't know double blinds , avoiding msg stopped sick restaurants cheers , john john nash email nash lan nrc ca institute biological sciences , national research council canada , cell physiology group ottawa , ontario , canada disclaimer opinions mine , nrc 's !
king reasoning com \( dick king \) subject interview doctor nntp posting host drums reasoning com organization reasoning systems , inc , palo alto , ca lines 11 insurance company encourages annual , age 42 i'm thinking , least , might good idea therefore , i'm shopping gp might well get good one could assembled net wisdom suggest things look , point faq archive topic one \? please email suspect topic real net clutter bait dk
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject sudden numbness arm reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 48 article gpu utcc utoronto ca molnar ca \( tom molnar \) writes experienced sudden numbness left arm morning completed 4th set deep today weight training day beginning routine sudden end 4th set arm felt like gone sleep cold , turned pale , lost 60 strength weight used n't heavy , working hard 100 effort waited minutes , trying shake arm back life continued chest exercises \( \) lighter normally use dropped left first set , experienced continued arm weakness second quit training decided usual hour ski machine either 'll take easy rest day arm still somewhat numb significantly weaker normal hand still bit thumb color returned normal longer cold horrid thoughts chunks plaque blocking major artery course brain i'm 34 , vegetarian , pretty fit daily exercise regimen ca n't could pinched nerve bar cause symptoms \( hope \) \? likely nothing chunks plaque sounds like may compromise arm need medical attention weight lifting gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
dfield flute calpoly edu \( infospunj \( dan field \) \) subject many mris \? organization california polytechnic state university , san luis obispo lines 19 article 1993apr19 informix com proberts informix com \( paul roberts \) writes article 1993apr12 kestrel edu king reasoning com \( dick king \) writes recall reading somewhere , youth , science book , changes n't normally affect chemistry , consumption heavy water would fatal , seeds watered heavy water sprout anyone know \? also heard always thought might make good someone poisoned heavy water would n't show chemical test would expensive indeed ! daniel r field , aka infospunj joe late \? dfield oboe calpoly edu dan , i'm working ! biochemistry , biotechnology california polytechnic state u
ghica fig citib com \( ghica \) subject seek sedative information originator ghica cyclops organization citibank lines 11 one heard sedative called \? made larouche , believe info side effects equivalent \? thanks take minute i'm 90 done worked machine
jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu \( john f nielsen \) subject good grief ! \( candida albicans \? \) nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 45 article netcom com noring netcom com \( jon noring \) writes article dyer spdcc com \( steve dyer \) writes article noring netcom com \( jon noring \) writes good grief anger \? must really touched raw nerve let 's see symptoms resisted treatments sporanox totally alleviated within one week hmmm , must psychotic ! 's illness mind thanks steve correct diagnosis must lot experience trenches , treating hundreds patients week thank i'm forever debt jon \( oops , gotta run , men white coats ready take away , haha , happy home , go thumbs , basket , moan sinuses \) ever heard something called placebo effect \? think dyer reacting looks yet another case old quackery true current medical knowledge limited , realize many quacks exist eager suck 's playing lottery best results got clear obvious , would mind trying little experiment see true \? would quite simple sugar pills real pills take one set one week set another week without knowing ones real pills end 2 weeks compare results let 's say 're wife would know real ones experiencing true marked difference week john john nielsen magnus consultant baldrick , renaissance something happened people , n't \? black adder
subject bates method myopia jc oneb almanac bc ca organization old frog 's almanac , nanaimo , b c keywords bates method summary proven hoax long ago lines 15 dr bates born graduated med school 1885 medical career hampered spells total amnesia published 1920 , great work cure imperfect treatment glasses , made claims eye actually works simply true huxley one high profile system mr huxley giving lecture bates system forgot lecture reading put paper right eyes resorted glass pocket book written debunking technique , however remain less read original fraud cheers jc oneb almanac bc ca \( john cross \) old frog 's almanac \( home almanac unix users group \) \( 604 \) 245 3205 \( v32 \) public access usenet \( 604 \) 245 4366 \( 2400x4 \) vancouver island , british columbia waffle xenix 1 64
kelley vet vet purdue edu \( stephen kelley \) subject angry doctor \? organization purdue university distribution na lines 32 article 1993apr21 1 stsci edu mryan stsci edu writes justified pissed doctor \? last saturday evening 6 year old son cut finger badly knife took local urgent general care clinic 5 50 pm story deleted bothered son get three stitches emergency room i'm still trying find charge clinic write letter certainly never set foot clinic people charge already know kind providing , n't give rat 's ass repeat business much likely good writing local newspapers , broadcast news shows , keep letter short point n't discard hand , emphasize exactly upset 's possible local health department help complain someone official , really , exists sole purpose generating walk income advertising , nothing change hope help someone else avoid i'm glad sounds like son ok , anyway opinion , course , steve
oregon uoregon edu \( sarah anne \) subject krillean photography article oregon distribution world organization university oregon lines 14 nntp posting host oregon uoregon edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 science project kirlian photography high school able obtain wonderful auras rocks pebbles like first water know little weird , know world magazine \( know , national geo children \) simple concise article kirlian photography neat pictures , friend mine 's mother book kirlian photography , 's photographs took radiologist interpret \( world magazine \) warned us dangerous , probably stop curious children experimenting mind , 10 years ago , least \( boy , say something age \) sarah oregon uoregon edu
david stat com \( david dodell \) subject medical newsletter , part 2 4 reply david stat com \( david dodell \) distribution world organization stat gateway service , wb7tpy lines 708 cut hicnet medical newsletter page 13 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 gonorrhea colorado , 1985 1992 source mmwr 42 \( 14 \) date apr 16 , 1993 number reported cases gonorrhea colorado increased 19 9 1991 1992 declining steadily 1980s comparison , united states , reported cases gonorrhea 1992 continued overall decreasing trend \( 1 \) report summarizes analysis increase gonorrhea colorado 1992 characterizes trends occurrence disease 1985 1992 1992 , cases gonorrhea reported colorado department health \( cdh \) compared cases reported 1991 1992 , reported cases increased 22 7 17 5 among females males , respectively \( table 1 \) similar increases occurred among blacks , whites , hispanics \( 15 6 , 15 1 , 15 9 , respectively \) however , number reported cases race specified increased 88 1991 1992 constituted 9 7 reported cases 1992 although largest proportional increases age groups occurred among persons aged 35 44 years \( 80 4 \) greater equal 45 years \( 87 7 \) , age groups accounted 11 0 reported cases 1992 persons 15 19 year age group accounted largest number reported cases gonorrhea 1992 highest age group specific rate \( 639 per 100 , 000 \) reported cases gonorrhea increased 32 9 five county denver metropolitan area \( 1990 population 1 , 629 , 466 \) decreased elsewhere state \( table 1 \) half cases gonorrhea denver metropolitan area occurred 8 4 \( 34 \) census tracts represent neighborhoods considered sexually transmitted diseases \( \) acquired immunodeficiency syndrome \( aids \) field staff focus gang drug activity compared 1991 , number gonorrhea cases diagnosed among men denver metro health clinic \( , primary public std clinic denver metropolitan area \) increased 33 1992 , number visits males clinic increased 2 4 concurrently , number cases diagnosed among women increased 1 among self identified heterosexual men , number gonorrhea cases diagnosed increased 33 comprised 94 cases diagnosed males , number cases diagnosed among self identified homosexual men remained low \( 71 74 1991 1992 , respectively \) four selected laboratories metropolitan denver area \( e , hmo , university hospital , nonprofit family planning , commercial \) contacted determine whether gonorrhea culture rates increased gonorrhea culture rates three four laboratories contacted increased 23 33 1991 1992 , rate virtually unchanged fourth \( e , nonprofit family planning \) 1985 1991 , reported cases gonorrhea among whites hispanics colorado decreased comparison , reported cases among blacks hicnet medical newsletter page 14 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 increased since 1988 \( figure 1 \) 1988 1992 , population colorado increased 9 9 blacks , 9 8 hispanics , 4 5 whites 1992 , gonorrhea rate blacks \( 1935 per 100 , 000 persons \) 57 times whites \( 34 per 100 , 000 \) 12 times hispanics \( 156 per 100 , 000 \) \( table 1 \) among black females , reported cases gonorrhea increased 1988 1992 15 19 year age group among black males , cases increased 1989 1992 15 19 20 24 year age groups reported ka , md , jm finn , ne spencer , , std aids program hoffman , md , state epidemiologist , colorado dept health jm douglas , md , denver dept health hospitals surveillance information systems br , div sexually transmitted diseases hiv prevention , national center prevention svcs , cdc editorial note increase reported gonorrhea cases colorado 1992 may represent overall increase occurrence disease complete reporting stimulated laboratories cdh surveillance staff 1991 1992 increases confirmed gonorrhea cases culture rates three four laboratories suggest real increase gonorrhea rather reporting however , stable culture rate nonprofit family planning laboratory \( serves network clinics \) indicates gonorrhea increase uniformly affect segments population one possible explanation increased occurrence gonorrhea colorado may gang drug related sexual behavior , implicated recent outbreak drug resistant gonorrhea colorado springs \( 2 \) although high morbidity census tracts denver metropolitan area coincide areas gang drug activity , hypothesis requires assessment examine possible role drug use implicated previously factor contributing national increase syphilis \( 3 6 \) cdh std aids program collecting information persons gonorrhea diagnosed regarding drug use , exchange sex money drugs , gang affiliation gonorrhea rate blacks colorado substantially exceeds national health objective year 2000 \( 1300 per 100 , 000 \) \( objective 19 1a \) \( 7 \) race likely risk marker rather risk factor gonorrhea risk markers may useful identifying groups greatest risk targeting prevention efforts moreover , race specific variation std rates may reflect differences factors socioeconomic status , access medical care , high risk behaviors response increased occurrence gonorrhea colorado , interventions initiated cdh std aids program include 1 \) targeting partner notification denver metropolitan area persons groups increased risk \( e g , 15 19 year old black females 20 24 year old black males \) 2 \) implementing media campaign \( e g , public service radio hicnet medical newsletter page 15 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 announcements , signs city buses , newspaper advertisements , posters schools clinics \) promote awareness std risk prevention targeted primarily high risk groups , 3 \) developing teams peer educators perform educational outreach high risk neighborhoods educational interventions developed implemented assistance members target groups input forum community leaders health care providers references 1 cdc table ii cases selected diseases , united states , weeks ending december 26 , 1992 , december 28 , 1991 \( week \) mmwr 1993 41 975 2 cdc gang related outbreak producing sexually transmitted diseases colorado springs , colorado , 1989 1991 mmwr 1993 42 25 8 3 cdc relationship syphilis drug use prostitution connecticut philadelphia , pennsylvania mmwr 1988 37 755 8 , 764 4 rt , goldberg , rg risk factors syphilis cocaine use prostitution j public health 1990 80 853 7 5 jk , fleming dw , dr , et al partner notification control epidemic syphilis \? ann intern med 1990 112 539 43 6 ka , rt gonorrhea syphilis trends 1980s real \? j public health 1991 81 1263 7 7 public health service healthy people 2000 national health promotion disease prevention objectives full report , commentary washington , dc us department health human services , public health service , 1991 dhhs publication \( \) 91 hicnet medical newsletter page 16 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 effectiveness disease injury prevention impact adult safety belt use restraint use among children less 11 years age selected states , 1988 1989 source mmwr 42 \( 14 \) date apr 16 , 1993 motor vehicle crashes leading cause death among children young adults united states account 1 million years potential life lost age 65 annually \( 1 \) child safety seats safety belts substantially reduce loss \( 2 \) 1977 1985 , 50 states passed legislation requiring use child safety seats safety belts children although laws reduce injuries young children estimated 8 59 \( 3 , 4 \) , motor vehicle crash related injuries remain major cause death among u children \( 1 \) , use occupant restraints among children decreases inversely age \( 84 usage aged 0 4 years 57 , aged 5 11 years 29 , aged 12 18 years \) \( 5 \) addition , parents use safety belts less likely use restraints children \( 6 \) characterize association adult safety belt use adult reported consistent use occupant restraints youngest child aged less 11 years within household , cdc analyzed data obtained behavioral risk factor surveillance system \( \) 1988 1989 report summarizes findings study data available 20 , respondents aged greater equal 18 years 11 states participated population based , random digit dialed telephone survey administered standard injury control child safety module developed cdc respondents , \( 26 \) child aged less 11 years household respondent asked specify child 's age frequency restraint use child two categories child restraint adult safety belt use analysis 1 \) consistent use \( e , always \) 2 \) less consistent use \( e , almost always , sometimes , rarely , never \) data weighted provide estimates representative state software survey data analysis \( \) \( 7 \) used calculate point estimates confidence intervals statistically significant differences defined p values less 0 05 11 states type child restraint law , six \( arizona , kentucky , maine , nebraska , rhode island , west virginia \) law requiring adults use safety belts four \( idaho , maryland , pennsylvania , washington \) secondary enforcement mandatory safety belt law \( e , vehicle stopped traffic violation citation safety belts could issued \) one state \( new york \) primary enforcement mandatory safety belt law \( e , vehicles could stopped safety belt law violation alone \) nine states , child passenger protection hicnet medical newsletter page 17 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 laws included children aged less 5 years , two states used age size child criteria mandatory restraint use analysis report states 1 \) law requiring adult safety belt use \( law states \) , 2 \) without law \( law states \) overall , 21 children aged less 11 years reportedly consistently restrained automobile travel child restraint use adult restraint use significantly higher \( p less 0 05 , chi square test \) law states law states \( 81 1 versus 74 3 58 7 versus 43 2 , respectively \) high rates restraint use children aged less equal 1 year reported adults indicating consistent less consistent safety belt use \( figure 1 \) adults consistent use reported high rates child occupant restraint use regardless child 's age \( range 95 5 1 year olds 84 7 10 year olds \) comparison , adults reporting less consistent safety belt use , rate child occupant restraint use declined sharply age child \( range 93 1 1 year olds 28 8 10 year olds \) comparing children consistent adult safety belt users children less consistent adult safety belt users , 95 confidence intervals overlap two youngest age groups \( e , aged less 1 1 year \) reported child occupant restraint use law states generally exceeded law states , regardless age child \( table 1 \) addition , higher adult educational attainment significantly associated increased restraint use children , factor also associated increased adult safety belt use \( 8 \) reported national center injury prevention control national center chronic disease prevention health promotion , cdc editorial note findings report consistent others indicating adults use safety belts less likely employ occupant restraints children \( 6 , 9 \) adults increased risk crashing likely exhibit risk taking behaviors , children traveling may greater risk motor vehicle injury \( 10 \) educational attainment adult respondents inversely associated child restraint use report accordingly , occupant protection programs promoted among parents low educational attainment low educational attainment often associated low socioeconomic status , programs offered adults health care facilities serve low income communities federal programs \( e , head start \) directed parents young children injury prevention programs emphasize restraining young children addition , however , efforts must intensified protect child occupants hicnet medical newsletter page 18 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 become older parents , especially low educational attainment , consistently wear safety belts , states mandatory safety belt use laws , encouraged wear safety belts protect children using approved child safety seats safety belts finally , increased use restraints among children may increase likelihood using safety belts become teenagers age group characterized lowest rate safety belt use highest rate fatal crashes \( 5 \) references 1 cdc childhood injuries united states j dis child 1990 144 627 46 2 sc papers child restraints effectiveness use washington , dc us department transportation , national highway traffic safety administration , 1988 report dot hs 807 286 3 guerin , assessment california child passenger restraint requirement j public health 1985 75 142 4 4 hall w , orr b , , et al progress report increasing child restraint usage local education distribution programs chapel hill , north carolina university north carolina chapel hill , highway safety research center , 1983 5 national highway traffic safety administration occupant protection trends 19 cities washington , dc us department transportation , national highway traffic safety administration , 1991 6 ac , molnar lj , margolis lh characteristics child safety seat users anal prev 1988 20 311 22 7 shah bv , bg , hunt pn , lm software survey data analysis \( \) version 5 50 software documentation research triangle park , north carolina research triangle institute , 1991 8 lund ak voluntary seat belt use among u drivers geographic , socioeconomic demographic variation anal prev 1986 18 43 50 9 margolis lh , ac , molnar lj use misuse automobile child restraint devices j dis child 1992 146 361 6 10 hunter ww , jc , stewart jr , ea characteristics seatbelt users non users state mandatory use law health education hicnet medical newsletter page 19 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 research 1990 5 161 73 arizona , idaho , kentucky , maine , maryland , nebraska , new york , pennsylvania , rhode island , washington , west virginia hicnet medical newsletter page 20 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 publication cdc surveillance summaries source mmwr 42 \( 14 \) date apr 16 , 1993 since 1983 , cdc published cdc surveillance summaries separate cover part mmwr series report published cdc surveillance summaries focuses public health surveillance surveillance findings reported broad range risk factors health conditions summaries reports published recent \( march 19 , 1993 \) issue cdc surveillance summaries \( 1 \) provided subscribers mmwr receive cdc surveillance summaries , well mmwr recommendations reports , part subscriptions surveillance comparison birth defect two geographic areas united states , 1983 88 problem condition cdc states developed surveillance systems monitor birth prevalence major defects reporting period covered report covers birth defects surveillance metropolitan atlanta , georgia , selected jurisdictions california years 1983 1988 description system california birth defects monitoring program metropolitan atlanta congenital defects program two population based surveillance systems employ similar data collection methods prevalence estimates 44 diagnostic categories based data 1983 1988 639 , 837 births california 152 , 970 births metropolitan atlanta two areas compared , adjusting race , sex , maternal age using regression results regional differences prevalence , fetal alcohol syndrome , hip , , obstruction kidney , may attributable general diagnostic however , differences arm hand limb reduction , , , 21 \( syndrome \) probably attributable differences , defects relatively easy diagnose interpretation regional differences prenatal diagnosis pregnancy termination may affect 21 however , reason differences arm hand reduction unknown , may related environmental exposure , gene pool , random variation actions taken similarities data bases , several collaborative studies implemented particular , differences birth prevalence syndrome focus attention impact prenatal diagnosis authors jane schulman , ph , nancy hicnet medical newsletter page 21 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 , p h , gary shaw , dr p h , california birth defects monitoring program , march birth defects foundation larry , p h , anne b , division birth defects , national center environmental health , cdc influenza united states , 1988 89 problem condition cdc monitors emergence spread new influenza virus variants impact influenza morbidity mortality annually october may reporting period covered report covers u influenza surveillance conducted october 1988 may 1989 description system weekly reports vital statistics offices 121 cities provided index influenza 's impact mortality 58 laboratories reported weekly identification influenza viruses weekly morbidity reports received state territorial 153 sentinel family practice physicians reports outbreaks unusual illnesses received throughout year results 1988 89 influenza season , influenza \( \) b viruses identified united states essentially equal frequency overall , although regional temporal patterns shifted course season throughout season increases indices influenza morbidity regions influenza \( \) similar increases regions influenza b 7 identified viruses influenza \( \) , increased season , subsequently 1989 90 season 1988 89 season outbreaks nursing homes reported association influenza b \( \) influenza \( \) interpretation alternating temporal geographic influenza strains \( \) b 1988 89 season emphasizes importance continual attention regional viral strain surveillance , since effective treatment prophylaxis influenza actions taken weekly interim analyses surveillance data produced throughout season allow physicians public health officials make informed choices regarding appropriate use cdc 's annual surveillance allows observed viral variants assessed candidates inclusion components vaccines used subsequent influenza seasons authors e chapman , , p h , epidemiology activity , office director , division viral diseases , national center infectious diseases margaret , , division , national center prevention services , cdc suzanne , p h , health investigations branch , division health studies , agency toxic substances disease registry maurice harmon , ph , hicnet medical newsletter page 22 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 laboratories , pasteur company , , pennsylvania alan p , ph , european regional office , world health organization , copenhagen , denmark nancy j cox , ph , influenza branch , division viral diseases , national center infectious diseases lawrence b , , p h , epidemiology activity , office director , division viral diseases , national center infectious diseases , cdc reference 1 cdc cdc surveillance summaries \( march 19 \) mmwr 1993 42 \( ss 1 \) hicnet medical newsletter page 23 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 clinical research news clinical research news arizona physicians vol 4 , 4 , april 1993 tucson , arizona published monthly office public affairs university arizona health sciences center copyright 1993 , university arizona high tech assisted reproductive technologies following birth first vitro fertilization embryo transfer \( ivf et \) baby 1978 , host assisted reproductive technologies developed include ivf et , gamete tube transfer \( gift \) , embryo \( freezing \) gamete together , technologies referred high tech assisted reproductive technology \( art \) procedures induction , sperm insemination surgery disease pathology still therapies available infertility management however , fail , almost always appropriate proceed one art procedures therefore , addition comprehensive basic general infertility service university arizona center reproductive infertility , program assisted reproduction specializes art procedures program serves provider patients state arizona whose infertility problems cannot resolved traditional therapies following article \( back \) describes art procedures available center , clarifies appropriate applications , considers realistic expectations success procedures included vitro fertilization embryo transfer \( ivf et \) , gamete tube transfer \( gift \) , human embryos gamete article also considers ongoing research program directed towards improved success technologies hicnet medical newsletter page 24 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 future areas research addition ongoing research directed exclusively toward management couples , developing technology assist couples risk producing embryos serious hereditary disease technology involves human embryo cells genetic analysis using either dna amplification fluorescent recent reports successful application dna amplification centers , example , diagnosis genes hope apply focus fluorescent technology probing x chromosome , identification provide scientific basis counselling patients exhibit sex linked disorders considerable clinical application technology lies fact need prenatal diagnosis , addition possibility subsequent termination affected fetuses , order avoid birth affected children catherine , ph associate professor director research department college medicine university arizona tucson , arizona applications , success rates advances management infertility following art procedures available university arizona center reproductive infertility vitro fertilization embryo transfer core art procedure assisted reproduction program procedure involves retrieval eggs ovary , insemination vitro dish , culture resultant embryos 1 2 days , transferred patient 's uterus cultures maintained strictly controlled atmospheric temperature conditions processed use insemination , semen samples evaluated laboratory using subjective light microscopy computer hicnet medical newsletter page 25 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 assisted semen analyses ensure adequate number eggs perform ivf et , indeed , gift , development typically stimulated , \( , \) , releasing hormone \( , , \) \( , depo , \) occasionally , however , ivf et accomplished eggs obtained non stimulated cycles programs utilize egg retrieval operating room patient general anesthesia , undertake less costly approach ultrasound guided retrieval infertility unit , patient couples resort ivf et exhibit deficiencies , dysfunction , endometriosis , mild forms male factor infertility according united states ivf registry , overall success rate ivf et nationwide stabilized 14 percent per cycle results program , involving 86 patients undergone 173 ivf et cycles , reflect comparable success rate nevertheless , overall incidence success procedure low emphasizes need address physiological factors limit achievement higher percentage well recognized outcome include patient age , response stimulation , quality sperm number repeated ivf et cycle attempts however , among , age single significant conception therefore , critical patients referred assisted reproduction program earliest opportunity following failure traditional therapies underlying basis negative effect age fertility clearly beyond recognition 1 \) number eggs available retrieval markedly age 2 \) fertilization rates significantly decrease eggs retrieved patients 40 years 3 \) provided appropriate hormonal background present , age unrelated competency sustain pregnancy ongoing research center , therefore , investigating physiological changes egg may impacted age determined 50 percent eggs fail vitro abnormal , significant proportion abnormalities accountable patient age currently , recourse patients use eggs obtained donor program initiated recruitment volunteer egg donors satisfy needs list recipients interested form therapy gift high tech art procedure performed operating room , usually use , contrast ivf et , involves introducing sperm freshly retrieved eggs tube \( average 3 eggs tube \) circumstances , fertilization occurs vivo , excess eggs retrieved , remainder undergo ivf , subsequent options embryo transfer cycle , freezing transfer subsequent cycle art procedure applied cases hicnet medical newsletter page 26 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 least one patent tube couple dysfunction , endometriosis , male factor infertility infertility data reported united states ivf registry 1985 1990 indicate overall success rate gift higher obtained ivf et technique \( range clinical gift 24 36 percent ivf et 14 18 percent \) view fact , one might expect patients treated gift ivf et however , program taken account three basic concerns , substantially reducing number gift cycles performed , benefit patient concerns 1 \) increased costs associated performing procedure operating room 2 \) risks , albeit minimal , undergoing general anesthesia 3 \) considerable benefits obtaining direct information quality eggs , competency resultant embryos increased success gift undoubtedly reflects artificial environment provided laboratory ivf et procedure january 1 , 1991 , december 31 , 1992 , performed total 12 gift cycles , overall success rate 20 percent embryo , freezing , applied program embryos result residual gift eggs non transferred ivf embryos procedure provides patients subsequent opportunity success much reduced costs , also legal ethical issues relating disposal embryos therefore , stipulated american fertility society ethical guidelines art programs , practical ethical standpoint , assisted reproduction programs capability human gamete art procedure , still new , applied couples insemination donor semen severe male factor infertility \( less 10 million sperm ml combination fewer 20 sperm , less 10 percent sperm normal morphology \) currently developing procedure sub insertion \( \) , entails injecting sperm coating around egg , barrier normally penetrated sperm available data programs world wide indicate 5 10 percent cycles result pregnancy statistic undoubtedly relates limitations imposed abnormalities inherent sperm therefore , currently focusing development improved techniques recognition selection sperm chosen manipulation efforts unquestionably worthwhile view fact technology offers realistic opportunity severe male factor patients establish conception catherine , ph hicnet medical newsletter page 27 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 associate professor director research department college medicine end part 2 internet david stat com fax 1 \( 602 \) 451 1165 bitnet atw1h asuacad fidonet 1 114 15 amateur packet ax25 wb7tpy wb7tpy az usa na
david stat com \( david dodell \) subject medical news part 4 4 reply david stat com \( david dodell \) distribution world organization stat gateway service , wb7tpy lines 577 cut limits azt 's efficacy suggest using drug either sequentially drugs kind aids treatment cocktail combining number drugs fight virus treating people azt alone n't happen real world anymore , said dr mark jacobson university california san francisco also , recent findings indicating hiv rapidly lymph nodes infection , physicians may begin pushing even harder early treatment hiv infected patients new infectious disease push american medical news \( 04 05 93 \) vol 36 , 13 , p 2 center disease control launch worldwide network track spread infectious diseases detect drug resistant new strains time help prevent spread network expected cost 75 million 125 million essential part clinton administration 's health reform plan , according cdc outside experts plan require cdc enhance surveillance disease united states establish 15 facilities across world track disease april 13 , 1993 nih plans begin aids drug trials earlier stage nature \( 04 01 93 \) vol 362 , , p 382 \( , colin \) hicnet medical newsletter page 42 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 national institutes health announced start treating hiv positive patients soon possible , resulting recent findings show hiv active body large numbers much earlier previously believed anthony , director u national institute allergy infectious diseases \( niaid \) , said , must address question treat people early possibly drugs safe enough give people years get around microbial resistance said delay would signify questions safety resistance rather lack funds , co authored one two papers published last week nature , rejects argument one co authors , cecil fox , new discovery indicates 1 billion spent vaccine trials waste time money trials started long patients infected ended quickly john tew medical college virginia richmond claims new evidence strongly backs argument early treatment hiv infected patients aids activists welcomed new information said scientific community slow understand significance infection lymph tissue 've known five years , 're glad public domain , said jesse dobson california based project inform peter duesberg , believes aids independent hiv result drug abuse west , said , several away explanation aids even papers right april 14 , 1993 risk aids virus doctors found minimal washington post \( 04 14 93 \) , p a9 risk hiv transmitted infected health care professionals patients minimal , according new research published today 's journal american medical association \( jama \) finding supports previous conclusions health experts chance contracting hiv health care worker remote three studies jama demonstrate thousands patients treated two hiv positive surgeons dentists without becoming infected virus studies conducted separate research teams new hampshire , maryland , florida study started hiv positive doctor dentist tested patients willing participate new hampshire study found none 1 , 174 patients undergone invasive procedures hiv positive orthopedic surgeon contracted hiv maryland , 413 1 , 131 patients operated breast surgery specialist johns hopkins hospital found hiv negative similarly florida , 900 1 , 192 dental hicnet medical newsletter page 43 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 patients , treated hiv positive general dentist , tested found negative hiv florida researchers , led gordon dickinson university miami school medicine , said , study indicates risk transmission hiv general dentist patients minimal setting universal precautions strictly observed related story philadelphia inquirer \( 04 14 \) p a6 alternative medicine advocates divided new nih research program aids treatment news \( 04 02 93 \) 172 , p 6 \( , dave \) new office alternative medicine national institutes health raised questions nih 's commitment effort uses unorthodox therapeutic methods oam small division nih , budget 2 million dollars compared 10 billion nih whole addition , money available research grants even smaller 500 , 000 600 , 000 total available year 10 20 grants , center natural traditional medicine washington , c , says oam afraid become involved aids look successful easy answer aids , said also common perception oam focus fields nih establishment find non threatening , relaxation techniques acupuncture oam called advisory committee conference 120 people last year , aids community largely missing meeting addition , general lack contact office added suspicion epidemic ignored jon greenberg , act new york , said , oam advisory panel composed practitioners without real research experience take several years accept nature research nevertheless , dr , research director aids investigator college medicine seattle , said , wonderful opportunity fund aids research 's fair give office time gel , 's public insist 's much , much public relations herpesvirus immune cell soldiers science news \( 04 03 93 \) vol 143 , 14 , p 215 \( , kathy \) scientists conducting test tube experiments found herpesvirus 6 attack human immune system 's natural killer cells attack causes killer cells malfunction , diminishing important component immune system 's fight diseases also , herpesvirus 6 may factor immune diseases , aids 1989 , paolo 's research found herpesvirus 6 attacks another white cell , cd4 , primary target hiv also found herpesvirus 6 hicnet medical newsletter page 44 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 kill natural killer cells scientists previously knew natural killer cells patients infected hiv work correctly 's research represents first time scientists indicated natural killer cells vulnerable kind viral attack , according anthony l , researcher harvard medical school despite test tube findings , scientists uncertain whether result occurs body 's team also found herpesvirus 6 produces cd4 receptor molecule provides access hiv cd4 express surface receptor , making vulnerable hiv 's attack researchers concluded herpesvirus 6 cells exacerbate affects hiv april 15 , 1993 aids priorities global village editor journal american medical association \( 04 07 93 \) vol 269 , 13 , p 1636 \( gellert , george , dale f \) health care workers obligated responsible ensuring politicians understand dimensions certain health problems , also committed related policies , write george gellert dale f orange county health care agency , santa ana , calif , emory university school public health atlanta , ga , respectively dr berkley 's editorial american doctors care aids epidemic beyond united states details several reasons concerted interest countries share aids noted aids leads global health , illness diseases malaria many respiratory intestinal pathogens similarly inhibited economic development humanity acted large populations berkley mentions enormous social economic impact aids many developing countries , increased need international assistance result berkley also cites lack political toward aids epidemic first decade new administration promise substantial differences approach international health development general , hiv aids particular vice president al gore proposes book earth balance major environmental initiative includes sustainable international development , programs promote literacy , improve child survival , contraceptive technology access throughout developing world enacted , change policy could drastically change future worldwide health aids priorities global village reply journal american hicnet medical newsletter page 45 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 medical association \( 04 07 93 \) vol 269 , 13 , p 1636 \( berkley , seth \) every nation tackle hiv early aggressively possible disease reaches endemic state , even cost diverting less attention illnesses , writes seth berkley rockefeller foundation new york , n , reply letter drs gellert although true diseases aids , malaria respiratory intestinal illnesses , similarly inhibited economic development developing countries deserve much attention getting , berkley disagrees contention aids receiving much attention hiv differs diseases , developing countries continuing spread endemic diseases , outcome neglecting interventions one year another year level needless disease death aids increasing spread , cost neglect , disease burden financially , much greater interventions early part spreading epidemic like hiv highly cost effective individual infection prevented significantly interrupts transmission berkley says agrees gellert gigantic social economic effects aids need political leadership concludes political leadership needed united states aids epidemic , even developing countries high rates hiv infection complacency epidemic rule hicnet medical newsletter page 46 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 aids hiv articles first hiv vaccine trial begins hiv infected children h h n e w u department health human services march 29 , 1993 first hiv vaccine therapy trial begins hiv infected children national institutes health opened first trial experimental hiv vaccines children infected human immunodeficiency virus \( hiv \) , virus causes aids trial compare safety three hiv experimental vaccines 90 children recruited least 12 sites nationwide volunteers must hiv infected symptoms hiv disease hhs secretary donna e shalala said initial study seen hopeful efforts tragedy hiv infected children face certainty develop aids anthony , , director national institute allergy infectious diseases nih office aids research , said trial first step finding whether vaccines help prevent delay disease progression children hiv yet sick vaccines prove safe , sophisticated questions therapeutic potential assessed phase ii trials centers disease control prevention estimates 10 , 000 children united states hiv end decade , world health organization projects 10 million children infected worldwide study children ages 1 month 12 years old niaid , funds aids clinical trials group network , conducting trial nine sites around country three sites participating funded national institute child health human development preliminary evidence similar studies way infected adults shows certain vaccines boost existing hiv specific immune responses hicnet medical newsletter page 47 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 stimulate new ones several years , however , researchers know responses affect clinical course disease results pediatric trial , known 218 , examined closely reasons well trial provide first insight immature immune system responds candidate hiv vaccines , said daniel hoth , , director niaid 's division aids need information design trials test whether experimental vaccines prevent hiv infection children united states , hiv infected children live poor inner city areas , 80 percent minorities , mainly black hispanic nearly hiv infected children acquire virus mothers pregnancy birth infected mother united states one four chance transmitting virus baby growing numbers women age become exposed hiv injection drug use infected sexual partners , researchers expect corresponding increase numbers infected children hiv disease rapidly infants children adults recent information suggests 50 percent infants born hiv develop serious aids related infection 3 6 years age infections include severe frequent bouts common bacterial illnesses childhood result seizures , pneumonia , diarrhea symptoms leading nutritional problems long hospital stays least half children trial 2 years age younger enable comparison immune responses younger older participants volunteers must well documented hiv infection symptoms hiv disease swollen lymph glands mildly swollen liver spleen cannot received anti immune regulating drugs within one month prior entry study study chair john lambert , , university rochester medical school , co chair samuel katz , , duke university school medicine , coordinate trial assisted james mcnamara , , medical officer pediatric medicine branch niaid 's division aids compare safety vaccines closely monitoring children side effects , see one vaccine produces swollen arms , example , another , said dr mcnamara 'll also look whether low high doses vaccines stimulate immune responses significant laboratory clinical effects emphasized small study size precludes comparing responses effects among three hicnet medical newsletter page 48 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 products trial test two doses three experimental vaccines made hiv proteins called vaccines , genetically engineered contain piece virus , far proved well tolerated ongoing trials hiv infected adults one vaccine made microgenesys inc , conn , contains gp160 protein gives rise hiv 's surface proteins plus adjuvant boost specific immune responses vaccine presently , adjuvant used human vaccines licensed food drug administration vaccines one made inc south san francisco , joint venture chiron ciba , , calif contain major hiv surface protein , , plus adjuvant vaccine contains , vaccine contains , experimental adjuvant proved safe effective phase vaccine trials adults low dose product tested first placebo 15 children twelve children assigned random immunized experimental vaccine , three children given adjuvant alone , considered placebo neither health care workers children told receive low dose well tolerated , controlled testing higher dose experimental vaccine adjuvant placebo another group 15 children begin child receive six immunizations one every four weeks six months followed 24 weeks last immunization information trial sites eligibility , call aids clinical trials information service , 1 800 trials , 9 7 p , est weekdays service spanish speaking information specialists available information niaid 's pediatric hiv aids research available office communications \( 301 \) 496 5717 nih , cdc fda agencies u public health service hhs press inquiries , please call laurie k \( 301 \) 402 hicnet medical newsletter page 49 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 new evidence hiv cause disease independently news national institute dental research new evidence human immunodeficiency virus cause disease independently ability suppress immune system , say scientists national health report hiv , infection , caused scaling skin conditions develop mice carrying genes hiv although hiv genes active mice , compromise immunity , researchers found led conclude hiv caused skin disease findings support growing body evidence hiv cause disease without affecting immune system , said lead author dr jeffrey kopp national institute dental research \( nidr \) dr kopp colleagues described study march issue aids research human developing animal models hiv infection difficult , since animals , including mice , cannot infected virus bypass problem , scientists developed hiv transgenic mice , carry genes hiv well genetic material nidr scientists created transgenic mice injecting hiv genes mouse eggs eggs female mice resulting contained normal transgenic animals institute scientists created mice carried complete copy hiv genetic material mice , however , became sick died soon birth study depth present study , scientists used incomplete copy hiv , allowed animals live longer transgenic animals developed scaling , like tumors necks backs transgenic mice developed , skin lesions covered bodies , resembling humans skin lesions developed normal , non transgenic studies tissue taken like skin tumors showed type tumor called although cause skin lesions , laboratory tests showed sign virus animals tissue samples taken sick mice throughout study revealed presence protein producing molecule made hiv genetic material hicnet medical newsletter page 50 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 evidence hiv protein production proved viral genes turned , active , said dr kopp scientists found evidence , however , compromised immunity mice increase white blood cell count signs common infections fact hiv genes active immune systems suppressed confirms virus causing skin lesions , dr kopp said proof hiv gene involvement came test scientists exposed transgenic animals ultraviolet light light increased hiv genetic activity causing develop formerly healthy skin formation response increased hiv genetic activity proved genes responsible skin condition , scientists said lesions appeared normal mice exposed uv light transgenic mice used study developed nidr dr peter dickie , national institute allergy infectious diseases study dr kopp mr charles , drs dorfman , joseph bryant , abner , paul , nidr dr stephen katz national cancer institute dr james , formerly nidr hicnet medical newsletter page 51 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 clinical consultation telephone service aids h h n e w u department health human services march 4 , 1993 hhs secretary donna e shalala today announced first nationwide clinical consultation telephone service doctors health care professionals questions providing care people hiv infection aids toll free national hiv telephone consulting service staffed physician , nurse practitioner pharmacist provides information drugs , clinical trials latest treatment methods service funded health resources services administration operates san francisco general hospital secretary shalala said , one goal project share expertise patients get best care second goal get primary health care providers involved care people hiv aids , reduces treatment cost allowing patients remain medical providers community social support networks currently , many providers refer patients hiv aids specialists providers experience secretary shalala said , clinical expertise especially helpful physicians providers treat people hiv aids communities clinical sites hiv expertise readily available telephone number health care professionals 1 800 933 , accessible 10 30 8 p est \( 7 30 5 p pst \) monday friday times , consultants try answer questions immediately , within hour times , physicians health care providers leave electronic message , questions answered quickly possible health care professionals may call service ask question related providing hiv care , including latest hiv aids drug treatment information , clinical trials information , case referral , literature searches information service designed health care professionals rather patients , families others alternate sources information materials health care professional calls new service , call taken either clinical pharmacist , primary care physician family nurse practitioner staff members extensive experience primary care people hiv related diseases consultant asks patient specific information , including cd4 cell count , current medications , sex , age patient 's hiv history national service grown 16 month local effort hicnet medical newsletter page 52 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 responded nearly 1 , 000 calls health care providers northern california initial project funded 's bureau health professions , community provider aids training \( \) project , american academy family physicians providers expand knowledge , also improve quality care able provide patients , said administrator robert g harmon , p h project great resource health care professionals hiv aids patients serve service opened new means communication health care professionals experts hiv care management , said 's associate administrator aids director bureau health resources development , g stephen bowen , , p h providers treat people hiv aids access latest information new drugs , treatment methods therapies people hiv aids one eight u public health service agencies within hhs aids hotline numbers consumers cdc national aids hotline 1 800 342 aids information spanish 1 800 344 aids clinical trials \( english spanish \) 1 800 trials hicnet medical newsletter page 53 cut last part internet david stat com fax 1 \( 602 \) 451 1165 bitnet atw1h asuacad fidonet 1 114 15 amateur packet ax25 wb7tpy wb7tpy az usa na
desire wright edu subject hismanal , et al side effects organization wright state university lines 22 article 1993apr21 spdcc com , dyer spdcc com \( steve dyer \) writes article 1993apr20 820 lrc edu lrc edu writes someone tell whether following medications linked rapid excessive weight gain distorted sense taste smell hismanal \( topical steroid prevent asthma \) hismanal \( astemizole \) definitely linked weight gain really peculiar antihistamines effect , even antihistamine like astemizole purportedly n't cross blood brain barrier tends cause drowsiness also gave lots problems joint muscle pain seemed trigger arthritis like problems sue steve dyer dyer ursa major spdcc com aka ima , harvard , rayssd , linus , m2c ! spdcc ! dyer
david stat com \( david dodell \) subject medical newsletter part 1 4 reply david stat com \( david dodell \) distribution world organization stat gateway service , wb7tpy lines 708 cut volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 ! ! ! health info com network ! ! medical newsletter ! editor david dodell , north street , suite 210 , scottsdale , arizona usa telephone 1 \( 602 \) 860 1121 fax 1 \( 602 \) 451 1165 compilation copyright 1993 david dodell , rights reserved license hereby granted electronic media fees charged , long text copyright notice license attached intact portion portions health info com network newsletter distributed articles medical nature welcomed article , please contact editor information submit interested joining automated distribution system , please contact editor e mail address editor internet david stat com fidonet 1 114 15 bitnet atw1h asuacad listserv mednews asuacad bitnet \( internet mednews asuvm inre asu edu \) anonymous ftp vm1 nodak edu notification list notify request stat com fax delivery contact editor information b l e f c n e n 1 comments news editor ocr scanner news 1 2 centers disease control prevention mmwr 16 april 1993 emerging infectious diseases 3 outbreak e coli infections hamburgers 5 use smokeless among adults 10 gonorrhea 14 impact adult safety belt use children less 11 years age 17 publication cdc surveillance summaries 21 3 clinical research news high tech assisted reproductive technologies 24 4 articles low levels airborne particles linked serious asthma attacks 29 nih consensus development conference melanoma 31 national cancer insitute designated cancer centers 32 5 general uci medical education software repository 40 6 aids news summaries aids daily summary april 12 april 15 , 1993 41 7 aids hiv articles first hiv vaccine trial begins hiv infected children 47 new evidence hiv cause disease independently 50 clinical consultation telephone service aids 52 hicnet medical newsletter page volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 comments news editor would like continue thank everyone sent donation mednews ocr scanner fund reached goal ! hewlett packard purchased week thank following individuals whose contributions received john sorenson carol moore barbara moose judith , thank gave ! using plus past couple weeks would like review product plus product recognition systems runs windows 3 1 supports technology hewlett packard scanners initially bringing software , lets select several options \( 1 \) text graphics \( 2 \) input source ie scanner , fax file , disk file \( 3 \) automatic versus manual decomposition scanned image like manual decomposition since software lets select parts document would like scanned , order image scanned , bring pop image verification software gives two errors point blue words converted reliability , match anything built dictionary yellow shade , words plus n't think converted correctly found software give credit usually correct , instead wrong word shaded blue , add personal dictionary problem personal dictionary handle 200 words find limited , considering many medical terms normal dictionary document converted , save multitude word processor formats also images captured stored seperate tiff pcx file format extremely impressed percent accuracy fax files use hicnet medical newsletter page 1 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 intel card , stores incoming pcx dcx format faxes received standard mode \( dpi \) , accuracy plus excellent overall , impressive product fault could find limitations size user dictionary 200 specialized words small anyone specific questions , please hesitate send email hicnet medical newsletter page 2 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 centers disease control prevention mmwr emerging infectious diseases source mmwr 42 \( 14 \) date apr 16 , 1993 introduction despite predictions earlier century infectious diseases would soon eliminated public health problem \( 1 \) , infectious diseases remain major cause death worldwide leading cause illness death united states since early 1970s , u public health system challenged myriad newly identified pathogens syndromes \( e g , escherichia coli o157 h7 , hepatitis c virus , human immunodeficiency virus , disease , lyme disease , toxic shock syndrome \) incidences many diseases widely presumed control , , malaria , tuberculosis \( tb \) , increased many areas furthermore , control prevention infectious diseases undermined drug resistance conditions gonorrhea , malaria , disease , , , tb , infections \( 2 \) emerging infections place disproportionate burden persons , institutional settings \( e g , hospitals child day care centers \) , minority populations substantial economic burden emerging infections u health care system could reduced effective surveillance systems targeted control prevention programs \( 3 \) issue mmwr new series , emerging infectious diseases future articles address diseases , well surveillance , control , prevention efforts health care providers public health officials first article updates ongoing investigation outbreak e coli o157 h7 western united states \( 4 \) references 1 natural history infectious disease cambridge , england cambridge university press , 1963 2 cm resistance drugs worldwide calamity ann intern med 1993 118 61 3 j , , oaks sc jr , eds emerging infections microbial threats health united states washington , dc national academy press , 1992 hicnet medical newsletter page 3 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 4 cdc preliminary report outbreak escherichia coli o157 h7 infections hamburgers western united states , 1993 mmwr 1993 42 85 6 hicnet medical newsletter page 4 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 update outbreak escherichia coli o157 h7 infections hamburgers western united states , 1992 1993 source mmwr 42 \( 14 \) date apr 16 , 1993 november 15 , 1992 , february 28 , 1993 , 500 laboratory confirmed infections e coli o157 h7 four associated deaths occurred four states washington , idaho , california , nevada report summarizes findings ongoing investigation \( 1 \) identified outbreak resulting consumption hamburgers one restaurant chain washington january 13 , 1993 , physician reported washington department health cluster children syndrome \( hus \) increase emergency room visits bloody diarrhea january 16 17 , case control study comparing 16 first cases bloody diarrhea hus identified age neighborhood matched controls implicated eating chain restaurants week symptom onset \( matched odds ratio undefined lower confidence limit 3 5 \) january 18 , recall unused hamburger patties chain restaurants initiated result publicity case finding efforts , january february 1993 , 602 patients bloody diarrhea hus reported state health department total 477 persons illnesses meeting case definition culture confirmed e coli o157 h7 infection hus \( figure 1 \) 477 persons , 52 \( 11 \) close contact person confirmed e coli o157 h7 infection week preceding onset symptoms remaining 425 persons , 372 \( 88 \) reported eating chain restaurant 9 days preceding onset symptoms 338 patients recalled ate chain restaurant , 312 \( 92 \) reported eating regular sized hamburger patty illness peaked january 17 january 20 477 , 144 \( 30 \) hospitalized 30 developed hus , three died median age patients 7 5 years \( range 0 74 years \) idaho following outbreak report washington , division health , idaho department health welfare , identified 14 persons culture confirmed e coli o157 h7 infection , illness onset dates december 11 , 1992 , february 16 , 1993 \( figure 2a \) four persons hospitalized one developed hus week preceding illness onset , 13 \( 93 \) eaten chain restaurant california late december , san diego county department health services notified child e coli o157 h7 infection subsequently died active surveillance record review identified eight persons e coli o157 h7 infections hus mid november mid january 1993 four nine reportedly recently eaten chain restaurant hicnet medical newsletter page 5 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 four chain b restaurant san diego washington outbreak reported , reviews medical records five hospitals revealed overall 27 increase visits admissions diarrhea december 1992 january 1993 compared period 1 year earlier case defined hus , bloody diarrhea culture negative cultured , illness stool culture yielded e coli o157 h7 , onset november 15 , 1992 , january 31 , 1993 illnesses 34 patients met case definition \( figure 2b \) outbreak strain identified stool specimens six patients fourteen persons hospitalized , seven developed hus , one child died median age case patients 10 years \( range 1 58 years \) case control study first 25 case patients identified age sex matched community controls implicated eating chain restaurant san diego \( matched 13 95 confidence interval ci 1 7 99 \) study comparing case patients ate chain restaurants well meal companions implicated regular sized hamburger patties \( matched undefined lower confidence limit 1 3 \) chain b statistically associated illness nevada january 22 , receiving report child hus eaten local chain restaurant , clark county \( las vegas \) health district issued press release requesting persons recent bloody diarrhea contact health department case defined hus , bloody diarrhea culture negative cultured , illness stool culture yielding washington strain e coli o157 h7 , onset december 1 , 1992 , february 7 , 1993 local laboratories using \( \) medium screen e coli o157 h7 , organism identified patient medium distributed , outbreak strain detected stool one patient 38 days illness onset 58 persons whose illnesses met case definition \( figure 2c \) , nine hospitalized three developed hus median age 30 5 years \( range 0 83 years \) analysis first 21 patients identified age sex matched community controls implicated eating chain restaurant week preceding illness onset \( matched undefined lower confidence limit 4 9 \) case control study using well meal companions case patients also implicated eating hamburgers chain \( matched 6 0 95 ci 0 7 49 8 \) investigation findings outbreak , chain restaurants washington linked cases primarily serving regular sized hamburger patties produced november 19 , 1992 meat used jumbo patties produced november 20 , 1992 outbreak strain e coli o157 h7 isolated 11 lots patties produced two dates lots distributed restaurants states illness occurred approximately 272 , 672 \( 20 \) implicated patties recovered recall meat cdc team identified five slaughter plants united states one canada likely sources used hicnet medical newsletter page 6 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 contaminated lots meat identified potential control points reducing likelihood contamination animals slaughtered domestic slaughter plants traced farms six western states one slaughter plant farm identified source investigation cases related secondary transmission families child day care settings ongoing reported davis , dvm , c , , seattle king county dept public health gordon , ms , mw hinds , md , health district , everett k , c , mph , tacoma pierce county health dept ed , md , pi , md , dept pediatrics , , md , depts anesthesiology pediatrics , univ washington school medicine children 's hospital medical center , seattle , md , b , mph j lewis , jm kobayashi , md , state epidemiologist , washington dept health g , md , j bradley , md , children 's hospital , san diego hunt , p tanner , res , , md , san diego county dept health svcs l barrett , dvm , sb werner , md , gw rutherford , iii , md , state epidemiologist , california dept health svcs rw , central district health dept , boise h root , southwest district health dept , caldwell brothers , , rl , ms , rh hudson , phd , div health , idaho state public health laboratory , fr dixon , md , state epidemiologist , div health , idaho dept health welfare dj , environmental epidemiology program , l , pa , , md , vh , dvm , clark county health district , las vegas , md , nevada state public health laboratory ds , md , r , mph , , dvm , state epidemiologist , div health , nevada state dept human resources center food safety applied nutrition , food drug administration food safety inspection svc , animal plant health inspection svc , us dept agriculture div field epidemiology , epidemiology program office diseases br , div bacterial diseases , national center infectious diseases , cdc editorial note e coli o157 h7 pathogenic gram negative bacterium first identified cause illness 1982 outbreak severe bloody diarrhea traced contaminated hamburgers \( 2 \) pathogen since emerged important cause bloody diarrhea hus , common cause acute renal failure children outbreak investigations linked cases consumption ground beef , although food vehicles , including roast beef , raw milk , apple cider , also implicated \( 3 \) preliminary data cdc 2 year , nationwide , study revealed routinely cultured e coli o157 h7 organism isolated frequently four 10 participating hospitals isolated 7 8 bloody , higher rate pathogen infection e coli o157 h7 often recognized clinical laboratories routinely culture organism hicnet medical newsletter page 7 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 medium , many unaware spectrum illnesses associated infection \( 4 \) usual clinical manifestations diarrhea \( often bloody \) abdominal cramps fever infrequent younger age groups elderly highest risk clinical manifestations complications illness usually 6 8 days , 2 7 patients develop hus , characterized , , renal failure , death rate 3 5 report illustrates difficulties recognizing community outbreaks e coli o157 h7 absence routine surveillance despite magnitude outbreak , problem may recognized three states link established washington \( 1 \) clinical laboratories routinely culture stool specimens persons bloody diarrhea hus e coli o157 h7 using \( 5 \) infections e coli o157 h7 identified , reported local health departments evaluation , necessary , public health action prevent cases e coli o157 h7 lives intestines healthy cattle , contaminate meat slaughter cdc u department agriculture 's food safety inspection service identify critical control points processing component program reduce likelihood pathogens e coli o157 h7 entering meat supply slaughtering practices result contamination raw meat pathogens , process grinding beef may transfer pathogens surface meat interior , ground beef likely internally contaminated optimal food protection practice cook ground beef thoroughly interior longer pink , clear outbreak , hamburger patties likely played important role food drug administration \( fda \) issued interim recommendations increase internal temperature cooked hamburgers 155 f \( 86 1 c \) \( fda , personal communication , 1993 \) regulatory actions stimulated outbreak described report recovery thousands contaminated patties could consumed emphasize value rapid public health investigations outbreaks public health impact increasing frequency isolation pathogen underscore need improved surveillance infections caused e coli o157 h7 hus better define epidemiology e coli o157 h7 references 1 cdc preliminary report outbreak escherichia coli o157 h7 infections hamburgers western united states , 1993 mmwr 1993 42 85 6 2 riley lw , rs , sd , et al colitis associated rare escherichia coli n engl j med 1983 308 681 5 hicnet medical newsletter page 8 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 3 griffin pm , rv epidemiology infections caused escherichia coli o157 h7 , e coli , associated syndrome rev 1991 13 60 98 4 griffin pm , sm , rv , et al illnesses associated escherichia coli o157 h7 infections broad clinical spectrum ann intern med 1988 109 705 12 5 march sb , ratnam latex test hicnet medical newsletter page 9 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 use smokeless tobacco among adults united states , 1991 source mmwr 42 \( 14 \) date apr 16 , 1993 consumption snuff smokeless tobacco products united states almost 1972 1991 \( 1 \) long term use smokeless tobacco associated nicotine addiction increased risk oral cancer \( 2 \) incidence could increase young persons currently use smokeless tobacco continue use products frequently \( 1 \) monitor trends prevalence use smokeless tobacco products , cdc 's 1991 national health interview survey health promotion disease prevention supplement \( \) collected information snuff chewing tobacco use smoking representative sample u civilian , population aged greater equal 18 years report summarizes findings survey 1991 supplement asked used snuff least 20 times entire life \? use snuff \? similar questions asked chewing tobacco use cigarette smoking current users smokeless tobacco defined reported snuff chewing tobacco use least 20 times reported using snuff chewing tobacco time interview former users defined reported used snuff chewing tobacco least 20 times using either time interview ever users smokeless tobacco included current former users current smokers defined reported smoking least 100 cigarettes currently smoking former smokers reported smoked least 100 cigarettes smoking ever smokers included current former smokers data smokeless tobacco use available 43 , 732 persons aged greater equal 18 years adjusted weighted provide national estimates confidence intervals \( cis \) calculated using standard errors generated software survey data analysis \( \) \( 3 \) 1991 , estimated 5 3 million \( 2 9 \) u adults current users smokeless tobacco , including 4 8 million \( 5 6 \) men 533 , 000 \( 0 6 \) women categories comparison , prevalence smokeless tobacco use substantially higher among men men , prevalence use highest among aged 18 24 years \( table 1 \) women , prevalence highest among aged greater equal 75 years prevalence smokeless tobacco use among men highest among american indians alaskan natives whites prevalence among women highest among american indians alaskan natives blacks among men women , prevalence smokeless tobacco use declined increasing education prevalence substantially higher among residents southern united states rural areas although prevalence smokeless tobacco use higher among hicnet medical newsletter page 10 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 men women poverty level , difference significant women \( p less 0 05 \) \( table 1 \) among men , prevalence current use snuff highest among aged 18 44 years varied considerably age prevalence use chewing tobacco evenly distributed age group \( table 2 \) although women rarely used smokeless tobacco , prevalence snuff use highest among aged greater equal 75 years estimated 7 9 million \( 4 4 95 ci 4 1 4 6 \) adults reported former smokeless tobacco users among ever users , proportion former smokeless tobacco users 59 9 \( 95 ci 57 7 62 1 \) among persons aged 18 24 years , proportion former users lower among snuff users \( 56 2 95 ci 49 4 63 0 \) among chewing tobacco users \( 70 4 95 ci 64 2 76 6 \) among persons aged 45 64 years , proportion former users similar snuff \( 68 9 95 ci 63 1 74 7 \) chewing tobacco \( 73 5 95 ci 68 9 78 1 \) among current users smokeless tobacco , 22 9 \( 95 ci 19 9 26 0 \) currently smoked , 33 3 \( 95 ci 30 0 36 5 \) formerly smoked , 43 8 \( 95 ci 39 9 47 7 \) never smoked comparison , among current smokers , 2 6 \( 95 ci 2 3 3 0 \) current users smokeless tobacco daily use smokeless tobacco common among snuff users \( 67 3 95 ci 63 2 71 4 \) among chewing tobacco users \( 45 1 95 ci 40 6 49 6 \) reported office smoking health , national center chronic disease prevention health promotion div health interview statistics , national center health statistics , cdc editorial note findings report indicate use smokeless tobacco highest among young males adolescent young adult males , particular , target marketing strategies tobacco companies link smokeless tobacco athletic performance use oral snuff risen markedly among professional baseball players , encouraging behavior among adolescent young adult males increasing risk nicotine addiction , oral cancer , mouth disorders \( 4 \) differences prevalence smokeless tobacco use among racial ethnic groups may influenced differences educational levels socioeconomic status well social cultural phenomena require explanation example , targeted marketing practices may play role maintaining increasing prevalence among groups , affecting differential initiation smokeless tobacco use young persons \( 5 , 6 \) report , one concern nearly one fourth current smokeless tobacco users also smoke cigarettes 1991 , prevalence cigarette smoking higher among former smokeless tobacco users among current never smokeless tobacco users previous study among college students , 18 current smokeless tobacco users smoked hicnet medical newsletter page 11 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 occasionally \( 7 \) addition , approximately 7 adults formerly smoked reported substituting tobacco products cigarettes effort stop smoking \( 8 \) health care providers recognize potential health implications concurrent smokeless tobacco cigarette use national health objectives year 2000 established special population target groups reduction prevalence smokeless tobacco use , including males aged 12 24 years \( 4 year 2000 objective 3 9 \) american indian alaskan native youth \( 10 year 2000 objective 3 9a \) \( 9 \) strategies lower prevalence smokeless tobacco use include continued monitoring smokeless tobacco use , integrating smoking smokeless tobacco control efforts , enforcing laws restrict access tobacco , making excise taxes cigarettes , encouraging health care providers routinely provide cessation advice follow , providing school based prevention cessation interventions , adopting policies prohibit tobacco use school property school sponsored events \( 5 \) references 1 office evaluations inspections spit tobacco youth washington , dc us department health human services , office inspector general , 1992 dhhs publication \( 06 \) 92 2 national institutes health health consequences using smokeless tobacco report advisory committee surgeon general bethesda , maryland us department health human services , public health service , 1986 dhhs publication \( nih \) 86 3 shah bv software survey data analysis \( \) version 5 30 software documentation research triangle park , north carolina research triangle institute , 1989 4 gn , orleans ct , tobacco sport j public health 1992 82 351 3 5 national cancer institute smokeless tobacco health international perspective bethesda , maryland us department health human services , public health service , national institutes health , 1992 dhhs publication \( nih \) 92 6 jp , jackson , wg , hartung gh , murray td , psychological profile college students use smokeless tobacco addict 1993 18 107 16 7 glover ed , , edwards sw age initiation switching patterns hicnet medical newsletter page 12 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 smokeless tobacco cigarettes among college students united states j public health 1989 79 207 8 8 cdc tobacco use 1986 methods adult use tobacco survey rockville , maryland us department health human services , public health service , cdc , 1990 dhhs publication \( om \) 90 9 public health service healthy people 2000 national health promotion disease prevention objectives washington , dc us department health human services , public health service , 1991 dhhs publication \( \) 91 end part 1 internet david stat com fax 1 \( 602 \) 451 1165 bitnet atw1h asuacad fidonet 1 114 15 amateur packet ax25 wb7tpy wb7tpy az usa na
david stat com \( david dodell \) subject medical news part 3 4 reply david stat com \( david dodell \) distribution world organization stat gateway service , wb7tpy lines 708 cut university arizona tucson , arizona suggested reading tan sl , p , campbell , jacobs hs , betts j , mason b , edwards rg \( 1992 \) cumulative conception rates vitro fertilization lancet 339 information , call physicians' resource line 1 800 328 tucson 694 hicnet medical newsletter page 28 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 articles low levels airborne particles linked serious asthma attacks american lung association new study published american lung association shown surprisingly low concentrations airborne particles send people asthma rushing emergency rooms treatment seattle based study showed roughly one eight emergency visits asthma city linked exposure particulate air pollution actual exposure levels recorded study far deemed unsafe federal air quality laws people asthma inflamed , airborne particles tend exacerbate inflammation , said joel schwartz , ph , environmental protection agency , lead author study people threshold , serious asthma attack , particles push edge seattle study correlated 13 months asthma emergency room visits daily levels pm , , , particulate matter aerodynamic diameter 10 microns less particles considered hazardous small enough penetrate lung cities considered compliance clean air laws 24 hour average concentration exceeds 150 per cubic millimeter air seattle however , link fine particles asthma found levels low 30 authors concluded every 30 increase four day average , odds someone asthma needing emergency treatment increased 12 percent findings published april american review respiratory disease , official journal american society , lung association 's medical section study latest series recent reports suggest particulate matter greatly appreciated health threat 1992 study dr schwartz douglas , ph , harvard found particles may causing roughly 60 , 000 premature deaths year united states studies linked particulate matter increased respiratory symptoms children government officials media still focused ozone , says dr schwartz research showing particles bad actors well one problem setting , standards particulate air pollution difficult study unlike regulated pollutants ozone carbon monoxide , particulate matter complex varying mixture substances , including carbon , hydrocarbons , dust , hicnet medical newsletter page 29 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 acid aerosols researchers ca n't put people exposure chambers study effects particulate air pollution , says dr schwartz way typical urban mix particles consequently , known particulates learned population based research like seattle study given epa 's current priority review ozone sulfur dioxide standards , agency unlikely standard time soon changes made , appears little people asthma protect airborne particles areas , get reports air quality , reports cover closest violating standard , 's rarely particulate matter , says dr schwartz however , n't near violation range unhealthy hicnet medical newsletter page 30 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 nih consensus development conference melanoma national institutes health consensus development conference diagnosis treatment early melanoma brought together experts , pathology , epidemiology , public education , surveillance techniques , potential new technologies well health care professionals public address \( 1 \) clinical characteristics early melanoma \( 2 \) appropriate diagnosis , management , followup patients early melanoma \( 3 \) role significance \( 4 \) role education screening preventing melanoma morbidity mortality following 2 days presentations experts discussion audience , consensus panel weighed scientific evidence prepared consensus statement among findings , panel recommended \( 1 \) melanoma distinct entity effectively treated surgically 0 5 margins \( 2 \) thin invasive melanoma , less 1 millimeter thick , potential long term survival 90 percent patients surgical 1 margin \( 3 \) elective lymph node extensive evaluations recommended early melanoma \( 4 \) patients early melanoma low risk may high risk development subsequent followed closely \( 5 \) family members patients melanoma increased risk melanoma enrolled surveillance programs \( 6 \) education screening programs potential decrease morbidity mortality melanoma copy full text consensus panel 's statement available calling nih office medical applications research \( 301 \) 496 writing office medical applications research , national institutes health , federal building , room 618 , bethesda , md hicnet medical newsletter page 31 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 nci designated cancer centers cancer centers program comprised 55 nci designated cancer centers actively engaged research efforts reduce cancer incidence , morbidity , mortality within program , four types cancer centers basic science cancer centers \( 14 \) , engage primarily basic cancer research clinical cancer centers \( 12 \) , focus clinical research comprehensive cancer centers \( 28 \) , emphasize approach cancer research , patient care , community outreach consortium cancer centers \( 1 \) , specialize cancer prevention control research although cancer centers existed late 1960s 1970s , national cancer act 1971 authorized establishment 15 new cancer centers , well continuing support existing ones passage act also dramatically transformed structure scope mission include aspects basic , clinical , cancer control research next two decades , program grew progressively 1990 , 19 comprehensive cancer centers nation today , 28 institutions , meet specific nci criteria comprehensive status attain recognition nci comprehensive cancer center , institution must pass rigorous peer review guidelines newly established 1990 , eight criteria include requirement center strong core basic laboratory research several scientific fields , biology molecular genetics , strong program clinical research , ability transfer research findings clinical practice moreover , five criteria comprehensive status go significantly beyond required cancer center support grant \( also referred core grant \) , mechanism choice supporting infrastructure cancer center 's operations criteria encompass strong participation nci designated high priority clinical trials , significant levels cancer prevention control research , important outreach educational activities funded variety sources types cancer centers also special characteristics capabilities organizing new programs research exploit important new findings address timely research questions hicnet medical newsletter page 32 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 55 nci designated cancer centers , 14 basic science type centers engage almost entirely basic research , although centers engage collaborative research outside clinical research investigators cooperative projects industry generate medical applications new discoveries laboratory clinical cancer centers , contrast , focus basic research clinical research within institutional framework , frequently incorporate nearby affiliated clinical research institutions overall research programs 12 centers today finally , consortium cancer centers , one , structured concentrate clinical research cancer prevention control research centers interface state local public health departments purpose achieving transfer effective prevention control techniques research findings institutions responsible implementing population wide public health programs consortium centers also heavily engaged institutions conduct clinical trial research coordinate community hospitals within network cooperating institutions clinical trials together , 55 nci designated cancer centers continue work toward creating new innovative approaches cancer research , interdisciplinary efforts , effectively move research laboratory clinical trials clinical practice comprehensive cancer centers \( internet addresses given available \) university alabama birmingham comprehensive cancer center basic health sciences building , room 108 1918 university boulevard birmingham , alabama 35294 \( 205 \) 934 university arizona cancer center 1501 north campbell avenue tucson , arizona \( 602 \) 626 internet syd arizona edu jonsson comprehensive cancer center university california los angeles 200 medical plaza los angeles , california \( 213 \) 206 hicnet medical newsletter page 33 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 internet rick ucla edu kenneth norris jr comprehensive cancer center university southern california 1441 avenue los angeles , california \( 213 \) 226 2370 yale university comprehensive cancer center 333 cedar street new , connecticut \( 203 \) 785 lombardi cancer research center georgetown university medical center reservoir road , n w washington , c \( 202 \) 687 sylvester comprehensive cancer center university miami medical school northwest 12th avenue miami , florida \( 305 \) 548 4800 internet med miami edu johns hopkins oncology center 600 north wolfe street baltimore , maryland \( 410 \) 955 dana cancer institute 44 street boston , massachusetts 02115 \( 617 \) 732 3214 internet stevenson harvard edu meyer l comprehensive cancer center metropolitan detroit 110 east warren avenue detroit , michigan \( 313 \) 745 internet cummings dnet roc wayne edu university michigan cancer center hicnet medical newsletter page 34 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 101 simpson drive ann arbor , michigan 48109 \( 313 \) bitnet um cc umich edu mayo comprehensive cancer center 200 first street southwest rochester , minnesota \( 507 \) 284 norris cotton cancer center dartmouth hitchcock medical center one medical center drive lebanon , new hampshire \( 603 \) 646 bitnet edward dartmouth edu park cancer institute elm carlton streets buffalo , new york \( 716 \) 845 4400 columbia university comprehensive cancer center college physicians surgeons 630 west street new york , new york \( 212 \) 305 internet ccc columbia edu memorial sloan kettering cancer center york avenue new york , new york \( 800 \) 525 cancer center new york university medical center 462 first avenue new york , new york 10016 \( 212 \) 263 unc comprehensive cancer center university north carolina school medicine chapel hill , north carolina \( 919 \) 966 hicnet medical newsletter page 35 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 duke comprehensive cancer center p box durham , north carolina 27710 \( 919 \) 286 cancer center wake forest university bowman gray school medicine 300 south road winston salem , north carolina \( 919 \) 748 internet wfu edu ohio state university comprehensive cancer center 300 west 10th avenue columbus , ohio 43210 \( 614 \) 293 internet dyoung magnus acs ohio state edu fox chase cancer center avenue philadelphia , pennsylvania \( 215 \) 728 internet davis edu university pennsylvania cancer center 3400 street philadelphia , pennsylvania \( 215 \) pittsburgh cancer institute 200 avenue pittsburgh , pennsylvania 15213 \( 800 \) 537 university texas anderson cancer center boulevard houston , texas \( 713 \) 792 3245 vermont cancer center university vermont 1 south prospect street burlington , vermont \( 802 \) 656 hicnet medical newsletter page 36 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 fred cancer research center 1124 columbia street seattle , washington \( 206 \) 667 internet org university wisconsin comprehensive cancer center 600 highland avenue madison , wisconsin \( 608 \) 263 8600 bitnet biostat wisc edu clinical cancer centers university california san diego cancer center 225 dickinson street san diego , california \( 619 \) 543 internet ucsd edu city hope national medical center beckman research institute 1500 east road , california \( 818 \) 359 ext university colorado cancer center 4200 east 9th avenue , box denver , colorado \( 303 \) 270 university chicago cancer research center 5841 south maryland avenue , box 444 chicago , illinois 60637 \( 312 \) 702 internet judith delphi bsd uchicago edu albert einstein college medicine 1300 morris park avenue bronx , new york \( 212 \) 920 hicnet medical newsletter page 37 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 university rochester cancer center 601 avenue , box 704 rochester , new york \( 716 \) 275 internet medicine rochester edu ireland cancer center case western reserve university university hospitals cleveland 2074 road cleveland , ohio 44106 \( 216 \) 844 roger williams cancer center brown university 825 avenue providence , rhode island \( 401 \) 456 2071 st jude children 's research hospital 332 north lauderdale street memphis , tennessee \( 901 \) 522 internet meyer org institute cancer research care medical drive san antonio , texas \( 512 \) 616 utah regional cancer center university utah health sciences center 50 north medical drive , room salt lake city , utah \( 801 \) 581 bitnet hogan cc utah edu massey cancer center medical college virginia virginia commonwealth university 1200 east broad street richmond , virginia \( 804 \) 786 hicnet medical newsletter page 38 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 drew consortium cancer center 1005 b todd boulevard nashville , tennessee \( 615 \) 327 hicnet medical newsletter page 39 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 general uci medical education software repository announce establishment ftp site university california , collection shareware , public domain software information relating medical education specifically , interested establishing site clearinghouse personally developed software developed local medical education programs welcome contributions may shared users connect uci medical education software repository , ftp ftp uci edu repository currently offers msdos macintosh software , hope support operating systems \( unix , , amiga \? \) uploads welcome actively solicit information software personaly developed found useful local medical education efforts , either instructor student connected site via ftp , cd \( change directory \) either med ed mac incoming med ed msdos incoming directories , change mode binary send put files note wo n't able see files ls dir commands please compress files appropriate operating system \( zip msdos something similar macintosh \) save disk space , please send email steve clancy \( uci edu \) \( msdos \) albert \( uci edu \) \( mac \) describing file \( \) uploaded information might need describe note accept software information designated shareware , public domain may otherwise distributed freely please upload commercial software ! may jeopardize existence ftp site wish upload software operating systems , please contact either steve clancy , l albert , addresses hicnet medical newsletter page 40 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 aids news summaries aids daily summary centers disease control prevention \( cdc \) national aids clearinghouse makes available following information public service providing information constitute endorsement cdc , cdc clearinghouse , organization reproduction text encouraged however , copies may sold copyright 1993 , information , inc , bethesda , md april 12 , 1993 nih set test multiple aids vaccines reuters \( 04 08 93 \) \( frank , jacqueline \) washington clinton administration permit national institutes health test multiple aids vaccines instead allowing army test single vaccine , administration sources said thursday decision ends controversy army aids researchers hoped test vaccine made microgenesys inc national institutes health , multiple vaccines tested health human services secretary donna shalala said final announcement therapeutic vaccine trials expected made last friday companies including inc , chiron corp , ag already told nih prepared participate vaccine tests testing intended demonstrate whether aids vaccines effective replication hiv patients already infected shalala refuted last week 's reports clinton administration decided army 's test microgenesys proceed without tests others time report inaccurate , expect announcement next 24 hours particular aids research project , said shalala administration sources subsequently confirmed nih director dr healy food drug administration commissioner david kessler convinced white house multiple vaccines tested simultaneously microgenesys president frank volvovitz said test multiple vaccines could triple cost trial delay two years hicnet medical newsletter page 41 volume 6 , number 10 april 20 , 1993 limits azt 's impact hiv u news world report \( 04 12 93 \) vol 114 , 14 , p 18 azt become widely used drug fight aids since approved food drug administration 1987 , manufacturer azt , made 338 million last year alone sales drug however , team european researchers recently reported although hiv positive patients taking azt demonstrated slightly lower risk developing aids within first year treatment , benefit disappeared two years later lancet published preliminary findings three year study , could give reason critics argue drug 's cost , side effects , general efficacy even though u researchers concede study comprehensive american trials , many argue european suggestion hiv positive patients experience little improvement illness development aids symptoms addition , researchers long familiar end part 3 internet david stat com fax 1 \( 602 \) 451 1165 bitnet atw1h asuacad fidonet 1 114 15 amateur packet ax25 wb7tpy wb7tpy az usa na
caf omen uucp \( chuck forsberg wa7kgx \) subject new diet works great ! ! ! ! organization omen technology inc , portland rain forest lines 29 article lynx unm edu bhjelle carina unm edu \( \) writes article 1993apr21 omen uucp caf omen uucp \( chuck forsberg wa7kgx \) writes article pitt uucp geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) writes provide reference substantiate gaining back lost weight constitute weight rebound exceeds starting weight \? oral tradition shared among obesity researchers \? one , two obesity europe 88 , proceedings 1st european congress obesity annals ny acad sci 1987 hmmm n't look like references passive aggressive behavior associated weight rebound \? \) brian purposefully left page numbers encourage reader study volumes mentioned , benefit chuck forsberg wa7kgx ! tektronix ! reed ! omen ! caf author ymodem , zmodem , professional yam , zcomm , dsz omen technology inc high reliability software 17505 v nw sauvie rd portland 97231 503 621 3406
jim zisfein factory com \( jim zisfein \) subject could migraine \? distribution world organization invention factory 's bbs new york city , ny 212 274 8298v 32bis reply jim zisfein factory com \( jim zisfein \) lines 31 gb geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) gb \( excepting migraine , arguably neurologic \) gb hope meant given choice , would rather argue g arguments aura fact , current best evidence aura \( la spreading depression \) rather \( something causing secondary \) migraine without aura , however , issue seem objectively measurable changes brain function copenhagen mafia \( , , et al \) done local studies migraine without aura , \( unlike migraine aura , like tension type \) found changes one \( absurd \) perspective , pain neurologic , absence nervous system , would pain another \( \) perspective , disease domain specialty treats neurologists treat headache , therefore \( least usa \) headache neurologic whether neurologic , nobody would disagree disabling headaches common perhaps fee service neurologic colleagues , cases , want headache patients get working salary , however , would rather fill office patients holding heads pain slmr 2 1 e mail jim zisfein factory com \( jim zisfein \)
morgan ucs mun ca \( thomas clancy \) subject thrush \( \( good grief ! \( candida albicans \? \) \) \) organization memorial university newfoundland lines 55 dyer spdcc com \( steve dyer \) writes article ucsvax sdsu edu mccurdy ucsvax sdsu edu \( mccurdy \) writes dyer beyond rude 'll drink yeah , yeah , yeah n't threaten rip lips , \? snort always people blinded knowledge anything n't already established given medical community n't know , i'm surprised outlook duh nice see steve still high almighty intellectual prowess tact record , several outbreaks thrush several past years , indication nutritional deficiencies taken listen thrush recognized clinical syndrome definite characteristics thrush , thrush , see lesions culture treat , generally responds well , 're otherwise noring 's anal retentive fungal infection sinuses even category , walking convinced candida reading quack book yawn dentist \( sees fair amount thrush \) recommended acidophilous began taking acidophilous daily basis , outbreaks ceased quit taking acidophilous , outbreaks periodically resumed resumed taking acidophilous outbreaks since \? exactly question , steve 's point \? person one , n't steve dyer nice see things never change , steve , n't ignorant one group alternative 're another one positive thing came , longer bothering folks alternative , 's shame people suffer others may breath freely sorry wasting bandwidth folks n't forget bow every second day , offer first born omniscient , omnipotent , mr steve
dsc gemini gsfc nasa gov \( doug \) subject cs chemical agent organization cdp vlbi lines 10 anyone provide information cs chemical agent tear gas used recently waco chemically , effects body \? dsc gemini gsfc nasa gov regards , hughes stx code 926 9 gsfc doug , maryland greenbelt , md 20771 path laid one stone time giant
annick cortex physiol su oz au \( annick \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? nntp posting host cortex physiol su oz au organization department physiology , university sydney , nsw , australia lines 29 sdf lonestar org marco sdf lonestar org \( steve giammarco \) writes add fuel flame war , read 20 years ago natural msg extracted sources mention cause reported 's nasty artificial msg extracted coal tar whatever causes chinese restaurant syndrome find pretty hard believe anyone else heard \? msg mono sodium glutamate , fairly straight forward compound pure , source problem comment suggests impurities may cause experience msg effects \( part double blind study \) pure stuff caused rather severe effects \( possibly incorrect \) assumption msg foods made processing sugar true \? sources msg \? bean , fermented , mushrooms contain msg one react , sometimes strongly , msg however , also react strongly sodium chloride \( table salt \) excess causes different symptoms except common one rapid heartbeat uncomfortable feeling pressure chest , upper left quadrant symptoms numbness jaw muscles first instance followed arms legs , headache , lethargy unable keep awake think may well affect people differently
titan ucs umass edu \( lisa \) subject organization university massachusetts , amherst lines 15 nntp posting host titan ucs umass edu hello , writing grant proposal genetics class chose look 1 gene variable curious already done subject , especially relationship specific mutations resulting literature search produce many references , want make sure proposing new research anyone knows recently key research search using medline , would informed thank lisa titan ucc umass edu
gw wmich edu subject msg sensitivity superstition \? organization western michigan university lines 33 article annick cortex physiol su oz au , annick cortex physiol su oz au \( annick \) writes sdf lonestar org marco sdf lonestar org \( steve giammarco \) writes add fuel flame war , read 20 years ago natural msg extracted sources mention cause reported 's nasty artificial msg extracted coal tar whatever causes chinese restaurant syndrome find pretty hard believe anyone else heard \? msg mono sodium glutamate , fairly straight forward compound pure , source problem comment suggests impurities may cause experience msg effects \( part double blind study \) pure stuff caused rather severe effects \( possibly incorrect \) assumption msg foods made processing sugar true \? sources msg \? bean , fermented , mushrooms contain msg one react , sometimes strongly , msg however , also react strongly sodium chloride \( table salt \) excess causes different symptoms except common one rapid heartbeat uncomfortable feeling pressure chest , upper left quadrant symptoms numbness jaw muscles first instance followed arms legs , headache , lethargy unable keep awake think may well affect people differently well , think msg made kind plant call staff
subject broken rib jc oneb almanac bc ca organization old frog 's almanac , nanaimo , b c keywords advice needed summary thanx comeback lines 7 hello , think right , spite movement getting better day cheers jc oneb almanac bc ca \( john cross \) old frog 's almanac \( home almanac unix users group \) \( 604 \) 245 3205 \( v32 \) public access usenet \( 604 \) 245 4366 \( 2400x4 \) vancouver island , british columbia waffle xenix 1 64
u96 vaxc stevens tech edu subject arythmia lines 11 organization stevens institute technology n't know anyone knows topic electrical heart failure one friends go doctor chest pains doc said arythmia go new york hospital lot money get treated doctors said could die , medication caused cancer \( taking \) well , suggested run , eat , \( skinny \) says nothing anyone know causes arythmia treated \? thanks
nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \( david nye \) subject , fibromyalgia syndrome cfs organization university wisconsin eau claire lines 37 reply daniel prince f129 n102 z1 calcom socal com \( daniel prince person fido cfs echo claims cured cfs taking accutane also claims using treatment fibromyalgia syndrome using accutane treatment fibromyalgia syndrome \? yes used cfs \? seems work equally well cfs , another hint may different facets underlying process gotten good results \? yes benefit usually evident within days starting patients worked well continued low dose , daily , regular sleep schedule \( current standard therapy \) cost \( usually 150 mo , depending dose \) potential significant side effects like corneal injury birth defects , currently reserve fail conventional treatment important person prescribing experience follow patient closely aware double blind studies use accutane conditions \? thank advance replies far know , person looking currently get duff finish writing case reports i'm academic physician , n't feel pressure publish perish n't time work day things david nye \( nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \) midelfort clinic , eau claire wi patently absurd whoever wishes become philosopher must learn frightened absurdities bertrand russell
nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \( david nye \) subject good grief ! \( candida albicans \? \) organization university wisconsin eau claire lines 29 reply aldridge netcom com \( jacquelin aldridge \) medicine totally scientific acquisition scientific knowledge completely scientific application knowledge individual cases may art science diseases n't described yet root cause many diseases described n't known \( read book gastroenterology sometime want see lot \) scientific methods run 's patient 's freedom choice try experimental method choose 's well recognized many doctors medicine n't answers certainly n't answers question , reliable means acquiring medical knowledge \? scientific method proven reliable reason alternative therapies physicians practitioners refuse submit theories rigorous scientific scrutiny , insisting tradition anecdotal evidence sufficient shown many times past unreliable ways acquiring reliable knowledge crook 's ideas never backed scientific evidence unwillingness good science makes rest us doubt veracity contentions david nye \( nyeda cnsvax uwec edu \) midelfort clinic , eau claire wi patently absurd whoever wishes become philosopher must learn frightened absurdities bertrand russell
des helix nih gov \( david e \) subject burzynski 's antineoplastons organization nih lines 58 article jschwimmer 123 wccnet wcc wesleyan edu jschwimmer wccnet wcc wesleyan edu \( josh schwimmer \) writes 've recently listened tape dr burzynski , claims discovered series naturally occuring anti cancer properties names antineoplastons burzynski says work met hostility united states , despite favorable responses subjects clinical trials generally accepted opinion dr burzynski 's research \? paints lone researcher new breakthrough battling intolerant medical establishment , basis judge claims two weeks ago , however , read nih 's department alternative medicine decided focus attention burzynski 's work budget small imagine would n't investigate treatment n't seem promising opinions burzynski 's antineoplastons information current status research would appreciated joshua schwimmer jschwimmer eagle wesleyan edu 's extensive discussion compuserve cancer forum dr burzynski 's treatment result decision forum member 's father undertake treatment brain disease universally usually rapidly fatal diagnosis june 1992 , tumor growing rapidly despite radiation chemotherapy forum member checked extensively dr 's track record disease spoke patients complete remission years following treatment nci oncologist case histories found valid impressive forum member 's father began dr burzynski 's treatment september , subsequent scans performed auspices oncologist chicago shown tumor growth possible signs necrosis patient 's oncologist , although telling would probably live past december 1992 , vehemently opposed trying dr burzynski 's treatment since tumor stopped rapid growth dr burzynski 's treatment , 's since changed attitude toward continuing treatments , saying ai n't broke , n't fix dr burzynski , ph research background found protein low serum levels cancer patients , synthesized , patients certain cancer types little understanding actual mechanism activity david e bitnet none internet helix nih gov phone 301 496 2194 compuserve , fax 301 402 1065 disclaimer comments offered share knowledge based upon personal views represent positions employer
access digex com \( bill barry \) subject cytoskeleton dynamics organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 16 nntp posting host access digex net summary fast dynamics cytoskeleton transformed cells \? keywords cytoskeleton , , i'm looking good background review paper references help understand dynamics cytoskeleton normal transformed cells particular , i'm interested behavior cell , rather internal motions cytoskeleton components normal transformed circumstances also , 'd appreciate data force constants , mechanical , elastic properties , viscous properties info relevant vibrational properties would useful thanks bill barry access digex com
ron roth rose com \( ron roth \) subject selective placebo x gated usenet rosemail gateway \( v1 70 \) organization rose media inc , toronto , ontario lines 23 l \( levin bbn com \( joel b levin \) writes l \( john badanes wrote l \( jb 1 \) ron consider proper channels l \( l \( i'm glad caught eye 's purpose forum l \( educate , eager learn , facts life phrase l \( used frenzy would respondents , l \( otherwise would feel left proper authorities l \( consulted topic short , means absolutely nothing l \( l \( apt description content ron roth 's l \( posts date least 's entertainment value \( though l \( diminishing \) well , 's easy say sit back , soak , try patients , brag colleagues incredibly success rate 're sudden ron rosereader 2 00 p003228 real cake , borrow ingredients rosemail 2 10 usenet rose media hamilton \( 416 \) 575 5363
sheryl seas gwu edu \( sheryl \) subject hismanal , et al side effects organization george washington university lines 28 article 1993apr21 spdcc com dyer spdcc com \( steve dyer \) writes article 1993apr20 820 lrc edu lrc edu writes someone tell whether following medications linked rapid excessive weight gain distorted sense taste smell hismanal \( topical steroid prevent asthma \) hismanal \( astemizole \) definitely linked weight gain really peculiar antihistamines effect , even antihistamine like astemizole purportedly n't cross blood brain barrier tends cause drowsiness antihistamines cause weight gain tell \) way find n't \? doctor obviously asleep wheel original poster mentioned fatigue , mostly due really bizarre dreams n't getting rest doctor said common reaction astemizole n't cross blood brain barrier , cause side effect \? ideas \? sheryl seas computing facility staff sheryl seas gwu edu george washington university \( 202 \) 994
bruce data io com \( bruce reynolds \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? organization data corporation lines 31 lerc nasa gov \( jeff miller \) writes even properly controlled studies \( e g double blind studies \) almost useless trying prove something affect anyone article agate berkeley edu spp zabriskie berkeley edu \( steve pope \) writes mass anectdotal evidence , combined lack properly constructed scientific experiment disproving hypothesis , makes msg reaction hypothesis likely explanation events good grief one ever heard \? \? university washington \( plus 3 4 others harvard , unc \) department advanced degree program wife ms biostat , plenty mds , phds , work people living really bright people study decades sort study well evidence worthless even doctors using drug treatment years , swear effective , often suprised results clinical trials whether msg causes , , symptoms pretty simple discover last study wife worked employed 200 nurses , 100 doctors , dozen ph ds one university 70 hospitals five nations would think msg question could settled one lowly biostat ms student thesis bruce
stgprao st unocal com \( richard ottolini \) subject krillean photography organization unocal corporation lines 20 living things maintain small electric fields \( 1 \) enhance certain chemical reactions , \( 2 \) promote communication states cell , \( 3 \) communicate cells \( nervous system specialized example \) , perhaps uses electric fields change location time large organism special photographic techniques applying external fields photography interact fields resistances caused fields make interesting pictures perhaps pictures disease problems organisms better understood perhaps studying overall electric activity biological systems several hundred years old , popular activity perhaps , except case tissues like nerves electric senses fishes , hard reduce investigation small pieces clearly analyzed hints manipulating electric fields useful therapy speeding healing broken bones , understood long association mysticism ideas go back early electrical experiments tissue invented battery personally n't care revert supernatural cause explain things n't yet understand
tammy vandenboom launchpad unc edu \( tammy vandenboom \) subject sore spot nntp posting host lambada oit unc edu organization university north carolina extended bulletin board service distribution na lines 17 husband woke three days ago small sore spot \( spot size nickel \) one bottom side , knots lumps , little sore spot says reminds bruise feels recollection hitting anything like would cause bruise \( 'd remember something like \) clues might \? 's somewhat \( sp \? \) 's sure 's gonna die thanks ! ! opinions expressed necessarily university north carolina chapel hill , campus office information technology , experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu 152 2 22 80
rind enterprise bih harvard edu \( david rind \) subject thrush \( good grief ! \( candida albicans \? \) organization beth israel hospital , harvard medical school , boston mass , usa lines 24 distribution world nntp posting host enterprise bih harvard edu article ucsvax sdsu edu mccurdy ucsvax sdsu edu \( mccurdy \) writes dentist \( sees fair amount thrush \) recommended acidophilous began taking acidophilous daily basis , outbreaks ceased quit taking acidophilous , outbreaks periodically resumed resumed taking acidophilous outbreaks since second post seems distinction real disease caused candida albicans disease asked , systemic yeast syndrome question candida albicans causes thrush also seems case active yogurt cultures acidophilous may reduce thrush least vaginal thrush 've never heard anyone taking oral thrush \( though presumably would work mechanism \) candida clearly common minor pathogen less common major pathogen mean evidence causes systemic yeast syndrome david rind rind enterprise bih harvard edu
jacquier uchicago edu \( eric jacquier \) subject opinions allergy \( hay fever \) shots \? organization university chicago computing organizations lines 19 hello , interested trying \( \? \) method hay fever state affairs went doctor paid 85 10 minute interview 3 scratches , leading diagnostic allergic \( june timothy \) grass believe looks like 2 shots per week 6 months followed 1 shot per month shot costs 20 talking soaring costs health care system , would call racket talking rare , garbage grows behind doctor 's office apart issue , somewhat disappointed find keep getting shots forever right \? thanks information ej
athena eng sun com \( william \) subject discussions alt psychoactives organization sun microsystems inc , mountain view , ca lines 39 reply athena eng sun com \( william \) nntp posting host athena article hp col col hp com col hp com \( bill claussen \) writes group originally takeoff sci med reason formation group discuss prescription psychoactive drugs oh well , obviously , one really cares let ask workable solution name implies certain things many people rather trying educate every person comes group name would imply group originally intended \? dad lawyer grew meaning reality , psychoactives technically could range caffeine drugs mention standard recreational drugs practice hoped see limited psychoactive level like drugs mention , also possibly including recreational drugs conversation limited psychoactive effects recent query bong water , thought bit topic hit k back original question workable solution workable name would imply topic discuss \? sounds like alt , something similar n't feel psychoactives would generally used describe alot drugs big difference drug taken certain doses , period days may psychoactive effect people , vs many drugs psychoactive wm pro choice means choice conception , apply men \?
matthews oswego edu \( harry matthews \) subject getting aids acupuncture needles reply matthews oswego oswego edu \( harry matthews \) organization instructional computing center , suny oswego , oswego , ny lines 22 article agate berkeley edu romdas uclink berkeley edu \( ella baff \) writes someone wrote expressing concern getting aids acupuncture needles unless friend sharing fluids acupuncturist aids unlikely \( impossible \) get aids acupuncture needles generally , even accidently , normal immune response enough effectively handle minimal involved acupuncture needle insertion n't hiv normal immune response exposure \? use disposable needles use throw away electrical pulse nerve testing done back needles taken dirty drawer instrument cart certainly sterile even clean matter likely fresh previous patient concerned , kept mouth shut probably raised hell ! comments \? excuses
paulson tab00 larc nasa gov \( sharon paulson \) subject food related seizures \? organization nasa langley research center , hampton va , usa lines 53 nntp posting host cmb00 larc nasa gov reply dozonoff bu edu 's message 21 apr 93 16 18 19 gmt article 116305 bu edu dozonoff bu edu \( david ozonoff \) writes path news larc nasa gov ! darwin sura net ! zaphod mps ohio state edu ! uwm edu ! ! att ! bu edu ! dozonoff dozonoff bu edu \( david ozonoff \) newsgroups sci med date 21 apr 93 16 18 19 gmt references paulson cmb00 larc nasa gov sender news bu edu lines 22 x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 sharon paulson \( paulson tab00 larc nasa gov \) wrote much deleted fact happened eating two sugar coated cereals made kellog 's makes think might allergic reaction something coating cereals four us immediate family , shows least signs hay fever , running nose , itchy eyes , etc lot allergies family history including weird food allergies nuts , mushrooms many cereals corn based post looked literature located two articles implicated corn \( contains tryptophan \) seizures idea corn diet might potentiate already existing latent seizure disorder , cause check see two kellog cereals corn based 'd interested david ozonoff , md , mph boston university school public health dozonoff med bu edu 80 east concord st , \( 617 \) 638 4620 boston , couple folks suggested corn connection five month period two seizures , daughter eaten fair amount berry berry mornings never problem checked labels first ingredient corn also never problem eating corn corn course , usually later day full stomach absorption would high believe frost flakes corn check fruit loops fact eaten cereal morning makes wonder thanks checking information point valuable sharon sharon paulson paulson larc nasa gov nasa langley research center bldg , mailstop 156 work \( 804 \) 864 2241 hampton , virginia 23681 home \( 804 \) 596 2362
organization university maine system andrew robinson andy maine maine edu subject reasons hospitals join internet \? lines 8 resources services available internet bitnet would interest hospitals medical care providers \? i'm interested anything , including institutions businesses interest medical profession internet , special services online access libraries diagnostic information , etc etc please reply directly andy maine edu
roos helsinki fi \( christophe roos \) subject wanted rat cell line \( adrenal gland cortical c \) summary find rat cell line keywords adrenal gland cortical cell cell line rat organization institute biotechnology \( univ helsinki \) lines 14 looking rat cell line adrenal gland cortical cell type looking without success would much appreciate help thank reading christophe roos institute biotechnology fax 358 0 pobox 45 , 7 e mail christophe roos helsinki fi university helsinki x 400 g christophe roos sf finland helsinki c fi
mcg2 ns1 cc lehigh edu \( marc gabriel \) subject diagnose lyme really organization lehigh university lines 44 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 gordon banks \( geb cs pitt edu \) wrote article 1993apr12 ns1 cc lehigh edu mcg2 ns1 cc lehigh edu \( marc gabriel \) writes , i'm saying best way diagnose 's hard culture bb cases point dr n developed feel n't ld comes years experience match unfortunately , would call dr n quack accuse trying make quick buck think would called quack \? quacks n't cultures poo poo lab tests lyme , believe , 've seen many times lab tests n't accurate 'll treat also , dr n 's practice almost exclusively devoted treating lyme patients \? n't know orthopedic surgeons fit pattern usually gps , exclusively treat ld patients however , parts country , n't need known ld specialist see large number ld patients walk office given huge problem , encounter late manifestations disease every day regular practices dr n told last year , sent 2 5 patients week ld specialists town let 's say 2 people per week actually ld means minimum 104 people town \( immediate area \) develop late stage manifestations ld every year add folks diagnosed neurologists , , gps , etc , see kind problem wonder everybody town personally knows ld patient refers patients ld specialists , extreme cases puts patient medication immediately minimize damage \( cases , knees \) gordon correct states ld specialists gps marc marc c gabriel u c box 545 \( 215 \) 882 lehigh university
debbie csd4 csd uwm edu \( debbie forest \) subject hismanal , et al side effects organization computing services division , university wisconsin milwaukee lines 19 nntp posting host 129 89 7 4 article 1993apr21 seas gwu edu sheryl seas gwu edu \( sheryl \) writes article 1993apr21 spdcc com dyer spdcc com \( steve dyer \) writes hismanal \( astemizole \) definitely linked weight gain really peculiar antihistamines effect , even antihistamine like astemizole purportedly n't cross blood brain barrier tends cause drowsiness original poster mentioned fatigue , mostly due really bizarre dreams n't getting rest doctor said common reaction astemizole n't cross blood brain barrier , cause side effect \? ideas \? made really bitchy first weeks think bizarre dreams doctor said made feel like something time keep taking , weeks symptoms seem go away , said hang
shavlik cs wisc edu \( jude shavlik \) subject program reg forms 1st int conf sys molecular biology keywords computational biology , artificial intelligence organization u wisconsin cs dept lines 482 attending aaai conf summer , note conference immediately preceding preliminary program registration materials first international conference intelligent systems molecular biology washington , c july 6 9 , 1993 sponsored national institutes health , national library medicine department energy , office health environmental research society american association artificial intelligence \( aaai \) poster session tutorials bethesda hotel technical sessions lister hill center auditorium , national library medicine information contact nlm nih gov fax \( 608 \) 262 purpose , first international conference intelligent systems molecular biology , inaugural meeting series intended bring together scientists applying technologies artificial intelligence , robotics , machine learning , massively parallel computing , advanced data modelling , related methods problems molecular biology scope extends computational robotic system supporting biological task challenging , involves synthesis information multiple sources multiple levels , way exhibits abstraction properties intelligent system facilities conference held lister hill center national library medicine 8600 rockville pike nih , building bethesda md seating conference center strictly limited , accepted first come , first serve basis , well reception poster session , bethesda hotel wisconsin avenue bethesda md special room rate negotiated hotel , 92 day \( expires 6 21 \) attendees must make reservations , writing hotel calling \( 800 \) 331 mentioning conference participate roommate matching service , e mail cs wisc edu transportation two facilities within easy walking distance , convenient subway \( metro red line , medical center stop \) , station nearby airports include , national , baltimore washington international proceedings full length papers talks posters published archival proceedings citation proceedings first international conference intelligent systems molecular biology \( eds l hunter , , j shavlik \) aaai mit press , menlo park ca , 1993 copies distributed conference registered attendees , available purchase publisher afterwards talks wednesday , july 7 , 1993 8 00 9 00am continental breakfast 9 00 9 15am opening remarks 9 15 10 invited talk statistics , protein cores , predicted structures prof temple smith \( boston university \) 10 30 11 00am break 11 00am constructive induction protein structure prediction r ioerger , l , 11 protein secondary structure modeling probabilistic networks l , , h r goldberg , w hsu 12 00 1 30pm lunch 1 30pm protein secondary structure using two level case based reasoning b , b g buchanan , h b nicholas 2 00pm automatic derivation yields novel structural building blocks globular proteins x zhang , j , w , l , g berg 2 30pm using mixture derive hidden markov models protein families brown , r , , , k , 3 00 3 30pm break 3 30pm protein classification using neural networks e , b , p 4 00pm neural networks molecular sequence classification c wu , berry , fung , j mclarty 4 30pm computationally efficient cluster representation molecular sequence j states , n harris , l hunter 7 00 7 30pm poster setup 7 30 10 00pm reception poster session thursday , july 8 , 1993 8 00 9 00am continental breakfast 9 00 10 15am invited talk large scale dna sequencing tale mice men prof leroy hood \( university washington \) 10 15 10 45am break 10 45am pattern recognition automated dna sequencing line signal conditioning feature extraction j b iii , , c 11 15am genetic algorithms sequence assembly r parsons , forrest , c 11 45am partial digest approach restriction site mapping g sundaram 12 15 2 00pm lunch 2 00pm integrating order distance relationships maps graves 2 30pm discovering sequence similarity algorithmic significance method 3 00pm identification human gene functional regions based composition v v c b lawrence 3 30pm knowledge discovery genbank j , j haas , g c 4 00 4 30pm break 4 30pm expert system generate machine learning experiments learning dna data cohen , c , h berman 5 00pm detection correlations sequences structural implications 5 30pm probabilistic structure calculations three dimensional structure sequence correlation data r b friday , july 9 , 1993 8 00 9 00am continental breakfast 9 00 10 15am invited talk artificial intelligence grand unified theory biochemistry prof harold \( george mason university \) 10 15 10 45am break 10 45am testing hiv molecular biology h b c 11 15am identification localized distributed metabolic pathways l 11 45am fine grain databases pattern discovery gene regulation b r 12 15 2 00pm lunch 2 00pm representation discovery protein motifs conklin , , j glasgow 2 30pm finding relevant features l hunter klein 3 00pm database techniques biological materials methods k , r , n , j 3 30pm multi level description scheme protein k , k , , c wong 4 00 4 30pm break 4 30pm protein topology prediction parallel constraint logic programming clark , c j , j , , reeve 5 30pm constraint reasoning system sequence specific resonance assignments multidimensional protein nmr spectra zimmerman , c , g 5 30 5 45pm closing remarks poster session following posters display bethesda hotel 7 30 10 00pm , wednesday , july 7 1 induction rules predicting chemical rodents bristol 2 application molecular pathology ball v h 3 flash fast look algorithm string 4 toward multi strategy parallel learning sequence analysis p k chan j 5 protein structure prediction selecting salient features large candidate pools k j j w shavlik 6 comparison two approaches prediction protein folding patterns , r holbrook , h kim 7 modular learning environment protein modeling j , l j 8 inference order genetic systems j n h roderick 9 palm pattern language molecular biology c helgesen p r 10 grammatical metabolic processes r 11 representations metabolic knowledge p riley 12 protein sequencing experiment planning using analogy b l 13 design object oriented database reverse genetics k j , j arnold , j miller , w potter 14 small word recognition dna sequences c j e 15 expert system automated genetic linkage mapping c , 16 constructing distributed object oriented system logical constraints activated cell sorting 17 prediction primate junction gene sequences cooperative knowledge acquisition system e j 18 object oriented knowledge bases analysis eukaryotic g , f , f , c 19 petri net representations metabolic pathways v n reddy , l , l 20 minimizing complexity cellular models self replication j , h h chou , l , peng 21 building large knowledge bases molecular biology , c , p , f , f , g , c 22 service oriented information sources database biological sciences g k springer b patrick 23 hidden markov models study equivalence possibilities h tanaka , k , , 24 protein structure prediction system based artificial neural networks j k 25 segment prediction protein sequence data weiss , cohen n tutorial program tutorials conducted bethesda hotel tuesday , july 6 12 00 2 45pm introduction molecular biology computer scientists prof mick \( rutgers university \) overview essential facts molecular biology intended introduction field computer scientists wish apply tools rich complex domain material covered include structural informational molecules , basic organization cell genetic material , central dogma gene expression , selected topics area structure , function , regulation relates current computational approaches dr appointments computer science biology rutgers , extensive experience basic biological research addition current work computational biology 12 00 2 45pm introduction artificial intelligence biologists dr richard \( mit corp \) overview field artificial intelligence presented , relates actual potential biological applications fundamental techniques , symbolic programming languages , notions search discussed , well selected topics somewhat greater detail , knowledge representation , inference , machine learning intended audience includes biologists computational background , extensive exposure artificial intelligence dr , co developer ariadne related technologies , worked area artificial intelligence applied biological problems academia industry 3 00 5 45pm neural networks , statistics , information theory biological sequence analysis dr alan \( los alamos national laboratory \) tutorial cover rapidly expanding facet intelligent systems molecular biology , machine learning techniques applied sequence analysis closely topics addressed include use neural networks elicit specific signals general characteristics sequences , relationship approaches statistical techniques information theoretic views sequence data dr , theoretical division los alamos , long leader use techniques domain 3 00 5 45pm genetic algorithms genetic programming prof john \( stanford university \) genetic algorithm , increasingly popular approach highly non linear multi dimensional optimization problems , originally inspired biological metaphor tutorial cover biological motivations , actual implementation characteristics algorithm genetic programming , extension well suited problems discovery size shape solution major part problem , also addressed particular attention paid biological applications , identifying resources software permit attendees begin using methods dr , consulting professor computer science stanford , taught subject since 1988 author standard text field 3 00 5 45pm linguistic methods sequence analysis prof david \( university pennsylvania \) shmuel \( weizmann institute \) approaches sequence analysis based linguistic methodologies increasingly evidence involve adaptation tools techniques computational linguistics pattern recognition gene prediction , classification genetic structures phenomena using formal language theory , identification significant overlapping codes sequence data , sequence comparison reflecting functional dr , holds research faculty appointments genetics computer science penn , represents branch field considers higher order approaches sequence data , shmuel studied published prof edward area word based analyses registration form mail , check made 93 , conference , c j shavlik computer sciences department university wisconsin 1210 west dayton street madison , wi usa name affiliation address phone fax electronic mail registration status regular student presenting \? talk poster tutorial registration molecular biology computer scientists artificial intelligence biologists neural networks , statistics , information theory sequence analysis genetic algorithms genetic programming linguistic methods sequence analysis payment \( early registration june 1 \) registration early late regular 100 125 student 75 100 tutorials one two regular 50 65 student 25 35 total registration fees include conference proceedings , , general program expenses organizing committee lawrence hunter nlm david u pennsylvania jude shavlik u wisconsin program committee douglas stanford u bruce buchanan u pittsburgh christian los alamos national lab fred cohen u c san francisco chris fields inst genome research michael u c san diego peter sri international washington u alan los alamos national lab richard mit corp charles lawrence baylor michael u maryland george michaels nih harold george mason u mick rutgers u ross argonne national lab chris derek u aberdeen david states washington u gary u colorado ed oak ridge national lab david thinking machines corp
green island com \( robert greenstein \) subject aids organization strawman incorporated lines 21 article news cso uiuc edu euclid mrcnext cso uiuc edu \( euclid k \) writes tea4two eng sun com \( alice taylor \) writes friend mine seeing acupuncturist wants know danger getting aids needles ask practitioner whether uses pre disposable needles , needles , use former case 's conceivable way get aids needles latter case 's highly unlikely \( though many practitioners use disposable variety anyway \) illegal perform acupuncture needles licensed practitioner would dare also single documented case transmission aids via acupuncture needles would n't worry robert greenstein fool cannot learn laughs , thinking green island com laughter shows superiority instead latent idiocy
jge cs unc edu \( john eyles \) subject diet crohn 's \( ibd \) organization university north carolina chapel hill lines 16 distribution usa nntp posting host ceti cs unc edu friend apparently fairly minor case crohn 's disease ca n't seem eat certain foods , fresh vegetables , without discomfort , course wants avoid recurrence question nutritionists specialize problems people crohn 's disease \? \( saw suggestion lipoxygnase inhibitors like tea turmeric \) thanks advance , john eyles jge cs unc edu
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 15 article 1993apr21 812 spdcc com dyer spdcc com \( steve dyer \) writes responds well , 're otherwise noring 's anal retentive fungal infection sinuses even category , walking convinced candida reading quack book speaking , anyone else impressed much descriptions published century ago sound like cfs \? gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject new diet works great ! ! ! ! reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 35 article 1993apr22 omen uucp caf omen uucp \( chuck forsberg wa7kgx \) writes provide reference substantiate gaining back lost weight constitute weight rebound exceeds starting weight \? oral tradition shared among obesity researchers \? annals ny acad sci 1987 hmmm n't look like references passive aggressive behavior associated weight rebound \? \) purposefully left page numbers encourage reader study volumes mentioned , benefit good story , chuck , wo n't wash read ny acad sci one \( \) could n't find reference weight rebound i'm saying n't , since cited , responsibility show index suspect knowledge base , usual gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
subject good book rginzberg eagle wesleyan edu \( ruth ginzberg \) distribution world organization philosophy dept , wesleyan university nntp posting host wesleyan edu x news reader vms news 1 48 lines 48 gone 10 days , i'm way behind news reading , many repeating something said already read good book away , antibiotic paradox miracle drugs destroying miracle , stuart b levy , , 1992 , press , isbn 0 306 7 drug resistant history antibiotics interesting written level think many sci med readers would appreciate assumes intelligent reader capable understanding scientific concepts , may yet exposed particular information e , assumes smart enough understand , assume already degree microbiology medicine table contents chapter 1 tragedy antibiotic age born chapter 2 disease cure microscopic world bacteria antibiotics chapter 3 reliance medicine self medication seeds antibiotic misuse chapter 4 antibiotic resistance microbial adaptation evolution chapter 5 antibiotic myth chapter 6 antibiotics , animals resistance gene pool chapter 7 ecological considerations antibiotic use agriculture , , pets , minor animal species chapter 8 future prospects new advances potential disaster chapter 9 individual antibiotic resistance chapter 10 antibiotic resistance societal issue local , national , international levels includes bibliography index personally found made good airplane reading rg ruth ginzberg rginzberg eagle wesleyan edu philosophy department wesleyan university usa
young serum kodak com \( rich young \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? originator young sasquatch nntp posting host sasquatch reply young serum kodak com organization clinical diagnostics division , eastman kodak company lines 86 article agate berkeley edu spp zabriskie berkeley edu \( steve pope \) writes mass anectdotal evidence , combined lack properly constructed scientific experiment disproving hypothesis , makes msg reaction hypothesis likely explanation events following critique 60 minutes presentation msg aired november 3rd , 1991 critique comes tufts diet nutrition letter , february 1992 edited brevity chances good watched '60 last november 3rd 1991 , came away feeling msg bad segment entitled 'no msg , ' instance , show host ed bradley makes alarming statements without adequately \( suffering host symptoms , get violently \) peppers report sensational unproven personal testimony speaks studies msg make substance seem harmful without explaining inconclusive studies consider making reference beginning program study conducted eastern virginia medical school order back comment 'a lot msg , flavor enhancer chinese asian well many supermarket items , causes headaches make reference fact study performed humans rabbits one researchers conducted study , patricia williams , ph , says certainly conceivable small minority people sensitive enough msg get headaches 'but , ' explains , 'the show probably extent problem ' second lapse comes mention dr john olney , professor washington university school medicine , mr bradley remarks , 20 years research laboratory animals shows msg hazard developing poses threat irreversible brain damage dr olney 's research lab animals anything human youngsters fact , extreme dr olney 's experiments ever bring brain damage injected extremely high doses msg rodents , completely bypassing digestive tracts entering directly , used tubes force feed huge amounts substance young animals empty stomach course , neither procedures occurs humans simply take msg food take broken enzymes wall small intestine , little reaches much little , fact , human blood levels msg come anywhere near high concentrations found dr olney 's lab animals world health organization appears much aware fact european scientific committee food , examining numerous studies , concluded msg safe determination makes sense , considering msg never proven cause symptoms attributed headaches , swelling , chest , burning sensation , among others fact , fail safe clinical studies , double blind study , consistently much substance 's quite fortunate since alleged hazardous component monosodium glutamate , glutamate , enters systems whenever eat food contains protein reason one amino acids make protein , acid , broken glutamate 's breakdown occurs frequently acid abundant 20 amino acids diet makes 15 percent protein flesh foods , 20 percent milk , 25 percent corn , 29 percent whole wheat n't mean 's entirely small number people trouble msg properly therefore sensitive consensus reached large , international professional organizations msg safe , consensus reached fda biomedical community large rich young \( kodak 's opinions \)
neal cmptrc lonestar org \( neal howard \) subject seek sedative information organization computrac inc , richardson tx lines 18 article fig citib com ghica fig citib com \( ghica \) writes one heard sedative called \? made larouche , believe info side effects equivalent \? probably mean , member family , chemical name strong tranquilizer probably best refered , rather tranquilizer one pill knock ass side effects may similar , , , neal howard '91 xlh 1200 dod 686 computrac , inc \( richardson , tx \) doh 0000001200 355o33 neal cmptrc lonestar org std disclaimer opinions mine , computrac 's let us learn dream , gentlemen , perhaps shall learn truth august kekule' \( 1890 \)
brandon nlm nih gov \( brandon \) subject angry doctor \? organization national library medicine x newsreader tin 1 1 pl4 distribution na lines 30 mryan stsci edu writes justified pissed doctor \? last saturday evening 6 year old son cut finger badly knife took local urgent general care clinic 5 50 pm clinic open till 6 00 pm receptionist went back told doctor , came back told us doctor would see us someplace go 6 00 want delayed next minutes , response questions , several trips back room , receptionist told doctor paperwork back , doctor would even look finger advise us going emergency room doctor would even speak would tell doctor 's name , name asked charge clinic , said n't know realize private clinic emergency room , quite angry turned away doctor want bothered son get three stitches emergency room speaking physician works urgent care center , behavior completely inappropriate patient requires extensive care shows last minute , always see give appropriate care reasonable clinic refuse see patients outside posted hours , describe ask speak clinic director , complain whatever attitude , nothing gain patients brandon
uabdpo dpo uab edu ! gila005 \( stephen holland \) subject diet crohn 's \( ibd \) organization gastroenterology univ alabama distribution usa lines 36 article 1r6g8finne88 ceti cs unc edu , jge cs unc edu \( john eyles \) wrote friend apparently fairly minor case crohn 's disease ca n't seem eat certain foods , fresh vegetables , without discomfort , course wants avoid recurrence question nutritionists specialize problems people crohn 's disease \? \( saw suggestion lipoxygnase inhibitors like tea turmeric \) thanks advance , john eyles jge cs unc edu problems fresh vegetables , guess obstruction intestine without knowing possible say whether obstruction permanent due scarring , temporary due swelling intestine general , dietary limitations patients crohn 's except relate obstruction evidence foods bring recurrence crohn 's important distinguish recurrence recurrent symptoms physician would think new inflammation recurrence , pains raw veggies imply narrowing intestine friend look membership crohn 's colitis foundation america 1 800 932 good luck friend steve holland
holfeltz lstc2vm stortek com subject krillean photography nntp posting host lstc2vm stortek com organization storagetek sw engineering x newsreader nnr vm 1 3 2 lines 53 article 1993apr19 205615 1013 unlv edu todamhyp charles unlv edu \( brian huey \) writes article 1993apr19 205615 1013 unlv edu , todamhyp charles unlv edu \( brian huey \) writes think 's correct spelling proper spelling kirlian effect kirlian , soviet film developer 1939 recall , visible ascribed static discharges chemical reactions organic material silver films tarl neustaedter stratus computer tarl sw stratus com marlboro , mass disclaimer employer responsible opinions think 's correct spelling looking information supplies allow yourselfers take krillean pictures i'm thinking education suppliers schools might appartus sale , n't know companies info greatly appreciated case n't know , krillean photography , best knowledge , involves taking pictures \( time \) organic object charged plates picture show energy patterns spikes around object photographed , depending type object , spikes energy patterns vary one might extrapolate say proves every object within universe \( know \) energy signature construct kirlian device find copy handbook psychic discoveries sheila lynn schroeder 1975 library congress 73 describes necessary equipment suppliers tesla coil alternatives , copper plate setup used pack sx 70 film removed single pack dark room , made exposure , put back film pack ran rollers camera developing high quality good way experience kirlian photography really know ready , pattern energy significant variations caused exposure time , distance plate , pressure plate , variations photo materials important hard copy mail mark c high p box 882 , ut
banschbach vms ocom okstate edu subject candida \( yeast \) bloom , fact fiction lines 187 nntp posting host vms ocom okstate edu organization osu college osteopathic medicine believe way thread candida \( yeast \) progressed steve dyer exchanging words topic sci med nutrition displayed typical reserve attacked women poster treated liscenced physician disease exist calling physician quack reprehensible steve see others well let tell quacks really , physicans idea human body interacts 's environment balance altered diet antibiotics physicians dismiss patients difficult make go doctor doctor find relief \( like elaine sci med nutrition \) find one solves problem , rest start yelling quack could professional jealousy \? could n't help elaine jon somebody else could know \? way , must quack 've teaching human nutrition course medical students ten years guess receptive students \? raised farms saw first hand effect diet health farm animals students made dramatic diet change prior entering medical school \( switched diet \) typically , 1 3 class 90 students interested nutrition either tune stop coming class 's okay know i'm teaching going stick least enlightened physicians practicing u 's really bad u medical schools n't cover nutrition , candida would viewed non disease many medical profession animal husbandry , animal good bacteria antibiotics stopped medicine decided since humans stomach , good bacteria needed coming spectrum antibiotic humans kinds different organisms living gi system \( mouth , stomach , small large intestine \) , sinuses , vagina skin nonpathogenic cause disease people unless immune system compromised also called unlike pathogenic organisms cause human disease , produce toxins live merry existence body organisms considered pathogenic manages take residence within body poor mucus membrane barrier let happen vitamin mainly responsible setting barrier steve got real upset elaine 's doctor using anti fungals vitamin gi problems steve really vitamin body , would \( least \) calling elaine 's doctor quack brief primer yeast yeast infections , commonly called , truely caused yeasts common organism responsible type infection candida albicans monilia actually yeast like fungus infection caused organism called candidiasis candidiasis rare occurance , like e coli infection , requires host immune system severly depressed candida frequently found skin mucous membranes normal healthy people rarely becomes problem unless factor present high blood glucose level \( diabetes \) oral course antibiotics used diabetics , secretions contain much higher amounts glucose candida , unlike bacteria , limited 's food \( fuel \) selection without glucose , grow , barely survives gets access lot glucose , blooms rides organisms living sinuses , gi tract vagina diabetics , skin lesions also foster good bloom site little buggers bloom usually minor people people really develop bad inflammatory process mucus membrane skin bloom site whether allergic like reaction candida n't certain bloom vagina skin , seen doctors try treat 's internal , symptoms used symptoms pretty candida kept check people normal bacterial flora sinuses , gi tract \( mouth , stomach intestines \) vaginal tract compete food human immune system bother \( nonpathogenic organisms \) unless broach mucus membrane barrier , inflammatory response set americans getting enough vitamin diets 30 american 's die less vitamin born \( u autopsy studies \) low level vitamin cause pathology \( blindness \) impair mucus membrane barrier system would factor strong inflammatory response candida bloom diabetics suffer candida bloom common cause type bloom use broad spectrum antibiotics knock many different kinds bacteria body remove main competition candida far food concerned drugs available handle candida , many patients find doctor use unless evidence systemic infection toxicity anti fungal drugs warrant caution gi sinus inflammation suspected candida \( recent use broad spectrum antibiotic smoking gun \) , anti fungal use anti fungal creams appropriate treatment recurring vaginal yeast infections , spite mr steve dyer says even patients given anti fungals , irritation caused excessive candida bloom sinus , gi tract vagina tends return drug treatment discontinued unless underlying cause problem addressed \( lack good bacterial flora body poor mucus membrane barrier \) lactobacillus acidophilus effective therapy candida 's name , acid loving organism sets acidic condition grows candida grow well acidic environment vagina , l bacteria \( unless hit broad spectrum antibiotics \) gi system , ano rectal region seems particularly good reservoir candida use many women creates favorable environment around rectum transfer \( moisture humidity \) candida vaginal tract one ways transfer wear cotton underwear bloom occurs anal area , burning , swelling , pain even blood discharge make many patients think bloom manages move gi tract , diffuse occurs \( abdominal discomfort blood stool \) positive stool occult blood sent elaine family doctor first place extensive testing , told nothing wrong gut still hurt another doctor , richard told e mail considers occult blood tests stool specimens waste time money large number false positives \( candida blooms guys \? \) gut hurt constant basis , would want fixed yes 's nice know n't colon cancer causing distress \? finally find doctor treats gets 90 better , steve dyer calls quack candida prefers slightly alkaline environment bacteria tend prefer slightly acidic environment vagina becomes alkaline woman 's period often candida blooms vagina vinegar water best way dealing vaginal problems many women also gotten relief introduction lactobacillus directly vaginal tract \( would want sure purity product trying \) wife vagina problem going birth control pills searched year found solved problem rather writting scripts anti fungal creams woman problem \( recurring vaginal yeast infections \) digging came acid l used office keep sterile three treatments , sex returned marraige often wondered chronic gi distress sinus problems would problem tells patients non existent syndrome nonpathogenic bacteria l acidophilus acid producing bacteria common bacteria found vaginal tract healthy women taken orally , also become major bacteria gut sprays , also used sinus membranes occurs , mucus membrane barrier system needs strengthened accomplished vitamin , vitamin c b complex vitamins diet surveys repeatedly show americans getting enough b6 probably population greatest problem non existent disorder \( candida blooms antibiotic therapy \) material obtained natural healing mark bricklin , published press , well notes human nutrition course posting discussion vitamin sometime future , along reference point extremely important role vitamin plays mucus membrane defense system body vitamin effective dealing candida blooms another effective dietary treatment restrict carbohydrate intake treatment phase , especially important gi system involved candida get glucose , 's going grow bacteria give bacteria , use amino acids fatty acids energy , chance take keep candida check carbohydrate returned gut steve nay sayers want jump post , fine jumped steve sci med nutrition poster seeking advice doctor 's use vitamin anti fungals candida bloom gut people seeking advice treated way us giving time knowledge slug heart 's content saved venom steve left helpless posters seeking help alone , would n't problem behavior martin banschbach , ph professor biochemistry chairman department biochemistry microbiology osu college osteopathic medicine 1111 west 17th st tulsa , ok 74107 without discourse , remembering , without remembering , learning , without learning , ignorance
ucs usl edu \( erika g \) subject organization wild wacky world clones zero gravity lines 16 wondering anyone information acquired , fortunately got rid , question still mind come \? little bit info received past states transmitted sexually , also occurs small children hands , feet information greatly appreciated grow old , grow old shall wear trousers rolled eliot
llnl gov \( dakota \) subject help kidney stones organization lawrence livermore national laboratory , ncd lines 30 nntp posting host llnl gov article 1993apr21 wvnvms wvnet edu pk115050 wvnvms wvnet edu writes girlfriend pain kidney stones says medical insurance , cannot get removed question way treat , least mitigate effects \? help deeply appreciated \( advice , referral literature , etc \) thank , dave pk115050 wvnvms wvnet edu first , let offer condolences 've kidney stones 4 times know pain going first , best see doctor however , every time kidney stones , saw doctor thing prescribe pain killers medication urinary tract infection pain killers nothing kidney stones extremely painful stones judged , waited however last one took 10 days pass fun anyway , absolutely wo n't see doctor , suggest drinking lots fluids perhaps counter sleeping pill , highly suggest seeing doctor kidney stones something fool around x make sure serious problem steve
spenser fudd jsc nasa gov \( spenser aden \) subject diet crohn 's \( ibd \) organization flight data evaluation office distribution usa lines 72 article uabdpo dpo uab edu spam dom uab edu uabdpo dpo uab edu ! gila005 \( stephen holland \) writes article 1r6g8finne88 ceti cs unc edu , jge cs unc edu \( john eyles \) wrote friend apparently fairly minor case crohn 's disease ca n't seem eat certain foods , fresh vegetables , without discomfort , course wants avoid recurrence question nutritionists specialize problems people crohn 's disease \? problems fresh vegetables , guess obstruction intestine without knowing possible say whether obstruction permanent due scarring , temporary due swelling intestine general , dietary limitations patients crohn 's except relate obstruction evidence foods bring recurrence crohn 's interesting statements , simply told otherwise i'm certainly questioning steve 's claims , one doctor , agree foods n't bring recurrence crohn 's inflammation either mildly drastically enhanced due food one major obstruction resulting \( good enough caveat \) , told low residue diet called basically , idea inflammation gut \( may realized patient \) , residue system caught folds inflammation constantly irritate , thus problem therefore , anything n't digest completely point common inflammation avoided 've told typical crohn 's , terminal , diet low residue , consisting completely never items corn \( kernel n't digest us know \) popcorn \( \) dried \( dehydrated \) fruit fruit skins nuts \( tough comes giving fudge \) discouraged greatly raw vegetables \( \) wheat raw grain exotic lettuce \( iceberg ok since 's apparently mostly water \) \( , mustard , kale , etc \) little seeds , like \( try getting 's without ! \) long grain wild rice \( husky \) beans \( 'll generate enough gas alone without ! \) basically anything requires heavy digestive processing told processed food better ! \( rather ironic day age \) whole point preventative want give system little chance possible told among numerous things heavily discouraged \( listed \) , try ones wanted see felt 's bad , n't ! remember though remission veggies cook prefer think 's cooks thoroughly 're mileage may vary anything else , check doctor n't take word info 've given , may starting point discussion good luck ! spenser spenser aden lockheed engineering sciences co \( 713 \) 483 nasa flight data evaluation office johnson space center , houston spenser fudd jsc nasa gov \( internet \) opinions herein mine alone aden vf jsc nasa gov \( bounces \) obfuscation unknown
mvs sas com \( shaffer \) subject seizures \( infantile spasms \) nntp posting host mvs sas com organization sas institute inc lines 16 article 1993apr20 dec com , dufault lftfld enet dec com \( md \) writes reason i'm posting article newsgroup 1 gather information disorder anyone might recently e \( associated actually disorder \) 2 help find access medical literature associated seizures internet tried e mail bounced back please e mail give someone 's name might helpful might also post message misc kids mvs sas com
euclid mrcnext cso uiuc edu \( euclid k \) subject getting aids acupuncture needles article news organization university illinois urbana lines 19 matthews oswego edu \( harry matthews \) writes electrical pulse nerve testing done back needles taken dirty drawer instrument cart certainly sterile even clean matter likely fresh previous patient concerned , kept mouth shut probably raised hell ! could describe detail procedure \? 've never heard yes , pierced needles probably protested euclid euclid k standard disclaimers apply bit ironic need wave model light understand propagation light part system leaves trace hudson nelson \( university physics \)
tas pegasus com \( len howard \) subject foreskin troubles summary operation article pegasus 1993apr22 organization pegasus , honolulu lines 11 article 1993apr18 radford vak12ed edu mmatusev radford vak12ed edu \( melissa n matusevich \) writes done , short circumcision , adult male whose foreskin retract \? melissa , simpler procedure called really first step usual circumcision simpler quicker , pain circumcision anesthetic wears aesthetic result post healing good see friendly details len howard
tas pegasus com \( len howard \) subject quality control medicine summary kaiser article pegasus 1993apr22 organization pegasus , honolulu lines 14 article 93108 uicvm uic edu u19250 uicvm uic edu writes anybody know information regarding total quality management , quality control , quality assurance delivery health care service would appreciate information enough interest , post responses thank singla ms , mba , md president ac inc dr singla , might contact kaiser health plan either area closest central office oakland ca qa , , concurrent ur , time hawaii region , suspect nationwide system len howard md
tron fafnir la locus com \( michael trofimoff \) subject request gyro \( souvlaki \) sauce organization locus computing corporation , los angeles , california distribution usa lines 12 hi , would anyone 'net land' happen authentic , sure fire way making great sauce used adorn gyro 's souvlaki \? thanks , tron e mail tron locus com vidi , vici , veni
akins cbnewsd cb att com \( kay akins \) subject seizure information infant organization keywords seizures lines 8 hotline epilepsy foundation america 1 800 1000 able answer questions send information references seizure types , medication , etc also give references pediatric area also ask number local foundation put touch parent support group social workers good luck
spud hyperion com \( steven grimm \) subject opinions allergy \( hay fever \) shots \? organization hyperion , mountain view , ca , usa lines 7 nntp posting host spud hyperion com allergy shots four years starting sophomore high school , used get bloody noses , asthma attacks , eyes itchy could n't get sleep 6 months shots , symptoms gone , n't come back stopped getting shots \( due laziness planning \) college allergies got little worse , still nowhere near bad used yes , shots work
subject arythmia husc10 harvard edu \( alexis perry \) organization harvard university science center nntp posting host husc10 harvard edu lines 18 article 1993apr22 1 vaxc stevens tech edu u96 vaxc stevens tech edu writes doctors said could die , medication caused serious \? ekg often comes back irregular beats another question low blood potassium level bad \? doctor seems concerned , tends worry much general alexis perry less want get husc harvard edu make , yet eliot house box 413 's promise lie \( 617 \) 493 6300 'll repent die work \? lost mind \? ! ren sting nobody really admits sharing opinions last harvard college
cs sandia gov \( martin e \) subject altitude adjustment article cs 1993apr22 organization ncube , sandia park , nm lines 31 article mdavcr mda ca vida mdavcr mda ca \( vida morkunas \) writes live sea level , called upon travel high altitude cities quite frequently , business cities question 7000 9000 feet altitude one especially polluted often feel faint first two three days feel , heart seems pound lot sea level also , dry cities , tend drink lot water , keep away drinks , containing caffeine alcohol thing , still symptoms ensure short trips \( , n't usually week \) comfortable possible \? something else could \? saw lifetime medical television show months back travel medicine briefly mentioned drugs started two three days getting altitude could assist unfortunately recall drug stimulated breathing night \? \? \? n't know makes sense , seems new drug red blood cell production would logical approach , \( sp \? \) alas , n't record program , wish , since live mother gets sick visiting please let know get informative responses phone \( 505 \) 845 martin e opinions domain ncube com p box 513 , sandia cs sandia gov sandia park , nm employer 's
citr uq oz au \( rob geraghty \) subject good grief ! \( candida albicans \? \) article organization prentice centre , university queensland lines 45 dyer spdcc com \( steve dyer \) writes snort ah , go sinuses oh , wow classic textbook hey , laughed einstein , ! yeah , 'll bet tomorrow , world listen , uncontrolled studies like worthless i'm sure sound like typical responds miracle cures yeah , makes sense , course taken seriously snort yeah , sounds reasonable oh , really \? tests \? immune compromised , ass like credulous psychiatric syndrome know , 's shame drug like itraconazole misused way 's ridiculously expensive , potentially toxic trouble n't toxic enough , gets abused quacks good thing nystatin 's \( relatively \) cheap taken orally , non toxic oral nystatin without systemic effect , unless given iv , would without effect sinuses wish quacks would first use iv nystatin b people like would solve yeast problem perhaps little haldol would go long way towards symptoms paying treatment pocket \? 'd hate think insurance premiums going towards steve , take look saying n't see one word n't anything constructive add , waste bandwidth yeah , sure , flame sci med alt flame \? like , medical science know categorically everything everything i'm flaming knowledge , asking sit back ask \? minds like parachutes function open oh want flame anyone else , using email \? rob n't claim relevant qualifications , interest rob geraghty 3 things important citr uq oz au gift love , joy life citr making music forms
pete demon co uk \( pete phillips \) subject particle size x address , wales , reply pete demon co uk organization surgical materials testing laboratory x fax 44 656 x phone 44 656 lines 25 hi , completing project performance , wealth data particle size output going use contract next week although output data easy us present , seems little concensus optimum diameter straightforward inhalation therapy \( eg \) say must smaller 5 microns , whilst others say small effective anyone topic could summarise current status \? cheers , pete pete phillips , deputy director , surgical materials testing lab , general hospital , wales pete demon co uk four horse apocalypse nutritional deprivation , state , widespread condition terminal inconvenience official politically correct dictionary
banschbach vms ocom okstate edu subject diet crohn 's \( ibd \) lines 34 nntp posting host vms ocom okstate edu organization osu college osteopathic medicine distribution usa article 1r6g8finne88 ceti cs unc edu , jge cs unc edu \( john eyles \) writes friend apparently fairly minor case crohn 's disease ca n't seem eat certain foods , fresh vegetables , without discomfort , course wants avoid recurrence question nutritionists specialize problems people crohn 's disease \? \( saw suggestion lipoxygnase inhibitors like tea turmeric \) thanks advance , john eyles friend really find registered dietician \( rd \) work hospitals clinics , many major cities rd 's private practice speak many physicans refer patients crohn 's disease rd 's dietary help get friend 's physician make referral , medical insurance pay rd 's services like services physical therapist better medical insurance plans cover even friend 's plan n't , would well worth cost get good diet control intestinal discomfort help intestinal lining heal crohn 's disease inflammatory disease intestinal lining lipoxygenase inhibitors may help decreasing formation i'm aware tea turmeric containing lipoxygenase inhibitors bad inflammation , steroids used mild case , side effects worth small benefit gained steroid use developing new lipoxygenase inhibitor greatly help deal inflammatory diseases 's available yet marty b
vax oxford ac uk subject help inject organization oxford university vax lines 12 best way self injection use right size needle choose correct spot , usually given intra , use thin needle \( 23 24 \) select spot upper , outer thigh \( major nerves blood vessels \) clean area injection , make sure inject deeply \( different kind pain felt needle enters muscle contrasted skin \) ps try go doctor self treatment self injection avoided far possible
noring netcom com \( jon noring \) subject great post ! \( candida \( yeast \) bloom \) \( long \) summary warning , lots words typical phlegmatic fashion organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 447 great post martin informative , well balanced , humanitarian without neglecting need scientific rigor \( cross posted alt psychology personality since personality typing discussed beginning note 've set followups sci med since comments sci med oriented i'm sure replies , , med related \) article banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes believe way thread candida \( yeast \) progressed steve dyer exchanging words topic sci med nutrition displayed typical reserve attacked woman poster treated physician disease exist calling physician quack reprehensible , steve , see others well responding natural way hyper choleric syndrome \( \) oops , recognized illness psychological community , better say since therefore must , never , exist \) actually , fascinating disproportionate number physicians type nt \( familiar myers briggs system , e mail 'll send summary file \) general population , nt 's comprise 12 population , among physicians much much higher \( n't know exact percentage help p p er 's \? \) one driving characteristic nt , especially , obvious choleric behavior \( driver , type , etc \) extreme emotional need control , lead , best competent also , best described field marshalls trait valuable essential society need people want lead , strive overcome elements , seek thirst knowledge , raise level competency , etc great successes science technology large part due vision \( n trait \) scientifically minded approach \( trait \) nt personality \( course , types positive contributions well \) however , nt person self image challenges , dark side personality type usually comes , obvious physician strong nt learned temper extremely business like \( lack feeling \) , compelled total control patient \( patient must obedient diagnosis prescription without question \) 've known many 's suffice say n't oblige followup visit , matter competent think \( usually competent knowledge viewpoint since extreme drive know , know \) maybe need nf doctor 's \) enough subject let 's move candida bloom let tell quacks really , physicans idea human body interacts 's environment balance altered diet antibiotics could professional jealousy \? could n't help elaine jon somebody else 've helped already post course , believe misdiagnosed net suffering , phlegmatic , maybe little harsh people past posts let 's try raise level discussion level anal humans kinds different organisms living gi system \( mouth , stomach , small large intestine \) , sinuses , vagina skin nonpathogenic cause disease people unless immune system compromised also called unlike pathogenic organisms cause human disease , produce toxins live merry existence body organisms considered pathogenic manages take residence within body poor mucus membrane barrier let happen vitamin mainly responsible setting barrier well described situation \( prior posts \) , definitely immune stressed blood tests showed vitamin levels low sinuses mess doubt mucosal lining cilia heavily damaged also antibiotics 15 times 4 years ! end , even two weeks work confirmed diagnoses chronic bacterial infection sinuses via cat scans , mucus color \( wo n't get details \) , symptoms three traditional ent 's made diagnosis \( cultures done , however , difficulty right symptoms clearly showed bacterial infection \) enough background \( provided help understand make comments sporanox anti fungal therapy \) first question fungus penetrate little way poor mucus membrane tissue , maybe via hyphae , thus causing symptoms , without considered classic sense \? sort inbetween infection steve got real upset elaine 's doctor using anti fungals vitamin gi problems steve really vitamin body , would \( least \) calling elaine 's doctor quack concerned , , toxicity vitamin doctor , blood tests , put 75 , 000 iu vitamin one week , dropped 25 , 000 iu next couple weeks also received zinc supplementation , since fairly complex ways doctor explained \( 's one specialists \) blood test three weeks later vitamin normal , stopped vitamin \( except multi vitamin \) supplement \) , made sure maintain 50 , 000 iu day beta carotene call carrot face \) hopefully , elaine 's doctor take similar , careful approach supplements i'm even supplements i'm taking , example , niacin fairly large , 1 gram day , steve dyer good information sci med nutrition niacin second order improvement symptomatic relief sinus allergies , probably worth taking large dose long term risking liver damage survives gets access lot glucose , blooms rides organisms living sinuses , gi tract vagina though believe , based successful therapy sporanox , definitely excessive growth fungus \( unknown species \) sinuses , still want ask question studies demonstrate candida blooms sinuses associated sinus irritation \( sinusitis rhinitis \) \? \( sinus irritation reduced significantly one week sporanox new treatments implemented time noticeable gi track problems starting sporanox , days went away considered normal \) btw , doctor dug one medical reference books \( sorry , ca n't remember one \) , found obscure comment dating back 1950 's stated people develop contained \( non lethal non serious \) \( \) sinuses leading sinus inflammation symptoms 'll dig reference since relevant discussion people really develop bad inflammatory process mucus membrane skin bloom site whether allergic like reaction candida n't certain doctor tested \( believe similar test \) allergic response specificially candida albicans , showed strong positive another question , would everybody show strong positive test essentially useless \? , assuming true candida grow part way mucus membrane tissue , concentration exceeds threshold amount , could person tests allergy candida definitely develop allergic symptoms , mucus membrane irritation due body 's allergic response \? said earlier post , one need rocket scientist , degree ph biochemistry see hypothesis btw , 'll repost dr ivker , book , sinus survival , routinely given , anything else , nizoral \( pre sporanox systemic anti fungal , safe good sporanox \) new chronic sinusitis patients antibiotics four times last two years claims 2000 patients , well 90 notice relief sinus inflammation symptoms , n't cure means , implying called yeast fungus infection primary cause , later complication 's also found nystatin , whether taken internally , put sinus spray , help implies \( course assuming excessive yeast fungus bloom sinus inflammation \) yeast fungus grown tissue since nystatin kill yeast fungus direct contact absorbed blood stream , admit , lots , , n't please hard core nt double blind study 's non issue , one start plausible hypothesis explanation , strawman , 's internal , symptoms used symptoms pretty brings interesting observation used deny reject aspects 'yeast appropriate studies done ca n't observe culture yeast bloom gut sinus , 's way diagnose even recognize disease know realize virtually impossible test candida overbloom part body cannot easily observed since candida everywhere body 's real catch 22 another catch 22 totally reject 'yeast say studies done \( actually studies done , 's certain standard , perspective , non study even considered \) agree appropriate studies done , take big right however , order convince funding agencies times open wallets , literally give evidence , acceptable evidence compete proposals paradoxically almost exact study needed funding , 90 study even get funding \( scientist national lab , i'm aware smaller funded projects \) i'm afraid even dr ivker 100 doctors got together , practice 's case histories anecdotes compelling picture , approach funding agencies , would get nowhere , even able publish statistical results obvious comments doctors decided excessive yeast colonization gut sinuses leading noticeable non lethal symptoms exist , even hypothesis , amount case histories compiled anecdotal evidence contrary never change mind , , would also oppose needed studies minds 's done issue excessive yeast growth leading diffuse allergic symptoms , , cannot exist period kind tough dialog hold viewpoint kind reminds lister candida kept check people normal bacterial flora sinuses , gi tract \( mouth , stomach intestines \) vaginal tract compete food human immune system bother \( nonpathogenic organisms \) unless broach mucus membrane barrier , inflammatory response set americans getting enough vitamin diets 30 american 's die less vitamin born \( u autopsy studies \) low level vitamin cause pathology \( blindness \) impair mucus membrane barrier system would factor strong inflammatory response candida bloom n't also nutrients necessary proper working sinus mucus membranes cilia \? diabetics suffer candida bloom common cause type bloom use broad spectrum antibiotics knock many different kinds bacteria body remove main competition candida far food concerned drugs available handle candida , many patients find doctor use unless evidence systemic infection toxicity anti fungal drugs warrant caution gi sinus inflammation suspected candida \( recent use broad spectrum antibiotic smoking gun \) , anti fungal use anti fungal creams appropriate treatment recurring vaginal yeast infections , spite mr steve dyer says , evidence studies indicate many yeast fungus species grow hyphae \( roots \) deep tissue , similar mold growing bread continue kill surface , nystatin , ca n't kill deeper tissue without using systemic anti fungal itraconazole \( sporanox \) older ones nizoral toxic effective , pointed recent studies \( sent doctor 've e mail contact thanks \) , nystatin effective long term treatment gi tract candidiasis 's like trying weed garden cutting 's ground leaving roots ready come walk away question whether contained candida bloom partially grow tissue mucus membranes , causing types symptoms susceptible people \( e g , allergy \) , without becoming systemic classical sense word something strictly excessive bloom causing problems full blown systemic infection potentially lethal gi system , ano rectal region seems particularly good reservoir candida use many women creates favorable environment around rectum transfer \( moisture humidity \) candida vaginal tract one ways transfer wear cotton underwear also , one , like 've diagnosed prior post , also provide sites excessive candida growth \) bloom occurs anal area , burning , swelling , pain even blood discharge make many patients think bloom manages move gi tract , diffuse occurs \( abdominal discomfort blood stool \) positive stool occult blood sent elaine family doctor first place extensive testing , told nothing wrong gut still hurt another doctor , richard told e mail considers occult blood tests stool specimens waste time money large number false positives \( candida blooms guys \? \) gut hurt constant basis , would want fixed yes 's nice know n't colon cancer causing distress \? finally find doctor treats gets 90 better , steve dyer calls quack 've said private e mail , flaws current medical system make difficult even impossible physician attempt alternative therapies approved proven accepted therapies n't work example , went three ent 's , said live acute chronic sinusitis ab 's failed \( mention surgery open ostia , ostia n't plugged would get root cause condition \) three months aggressive fairly non standard therapy \( sporanox , body nutrient level monitoring equalization , vitamin c , , , etc \) , health vastly improved two years ago , health greatly course , skeptics would say maybe nothing would improved anyway , view stretching things quite far experience three ent 's saw said 'd live i'm confident reach one could call total cure anti fungal program undertook one necessary step direction overuse ab 's last four years \( note sinus problems , may suggest book dr ivker mention sure get revised edition \) often wondered chronic gi distress sinus problems would problem tells patients non existent syndrome dr ivker started chronic severe sinus problems , visits several ent 's totally said 'll live spent several years trying everything standard non standard , essentially cured chronic sinusitis shares approach book honestly say road recovery following parts one recommendation take systemic anti fungal beginning treatment history anti overuse proven time time practice i'm sure commented hard core beliefs anti yeast hypothesis posters would definite things say , , 's worked wonders almost two thousand cases , put mildly also would surprised would say ones violating moral obligations help patient maybe doctors reading practice confronted patient symptoms could due hypothetical yeast \( e g , fit profiles pro yeast people identified \) , consider anti fungal therapy avenues exhausted remember , theory practice two different things cannot one without , doctor something non standard yet produces noticeable symptomatic relief thousand patients , n't least sit take notice \? maybe ought trust says begin hypothesizing works instead n't work i'm afraid lot doctors become scientific correctness ignoring patients sworn help balanced , n't see posters group comes point use little common sense , maybe empirical approach \( trying good systemic anti fungal sporanox \) exhausted avenues one traditional medical establishment able help , natural thing went couple doctor 's \( somewhat \) outside establishment , result found significant relief would better traditional medical establishment set kind mechanism doctor , without fear sued license pulled , try experimental unproven \( beyond doubt \) therapies patients finally reach point accepted therapies ineffective \? 'd like hear doctor tell well , 've tried therapies approved accepted country , since clearly n't work , authority use experimental , unproven techniques seem helped others ca n't promise anything , risks sign something saying understand experimental possibly risky nature unproven therapies , 'll register case state board anyway , ent suggested , would 've jumped pronto instead going one doctors , either reasons , greed , practicing alternative therapies much risk \( risk meaning losing license \) possibly patient mechanism would keep control mainstream medicine , also provide valuable data would essentially free also would morally ethically better current system showing compassion medical community patient 's everything within reason help patient lack mechanism leading large numbers people try alternative therapies , seem work \( like case \) , others never work \( true quackery \) better get soapbox post reaches 500k size taken orally , also become major bacteria gut sprays , also used sinus membranes occurs , mucus membrane barrier system needs strengthened accomplished vitamin , vitamin c b complex vitamins diet surveys repeatedly show americans getting enough b6 probably population greatest problem non existent disorder \( candida blooms antibiotic therapy \) dosage b6 appears necessary promote healing proper working \? material obtained natural healing mark bricklin , published press , well notes human nutrition course posting discussion vitamin sometime future , along reference point extremely important role vitamin plays mucus membrane defense system body vitamin effective dealing candida blooms another effective dietary treatment restrict carbohydrate intake treatment phase , especially important gi system involved candida get glucose , 's going grow bacteria give bacteria , use amino acids fatty acids energy , chance take keep candida check carbohydrate returned gut 'd like see role complex carbohydrates , steve nay sayers want jump post , fine jumped steve sci med nutrition poster seeking advice doctor 's use vitamin anti fungals candida bloom gut people seeking advice treated way us giving time knowledge slug heart 's content saved venom steve left helpless posters seeking help alone , would n't problem behavior brave soul venom usenet quite toxic unless one develops immunity one year ago , phlegmatic self would backed right away attack immune system , computer system , hardened gradual kind like called anal retentive nice ring also impressed flowed post truly classic , worthy blue \( maybe brown \) ribbon might even cross post alt best internet hmmm martin banschbach , ph professor biochemistry chairman department biochemistry microbiology osu college osteopathic medicine thanks great informative post hope others researched area lurking background post thoughts well , matter views subject jon noring charter member infj club 're dying know infj means , brave , e mail , 'll send info jon noring noring netcom com jkn international ip 192 100 81 100 fred's gourmet chocolate 1312 carlton place phone \( 510 \) 294 8153 chips world 's best ! livermore , ca 94550 v mail \( 510 \) 417 4101 \? read alt psychology personality ! 's action
uxa cso uiuc edu \( daniel paul \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? article news dt organization university illinois urbana lines 22 bruce data io com \( bruce reynolds \) writes evidence worthless even doctors using drug treatment years , swear effective , often suprised results clinical trials whether msg causes , , symptoms pretty simple discover tend disagree think anecdotal evidence , provided lot , fairly consistent , important first , points necessity study , second , least says effects psychological \( possibly allergy case \) 've pointed , effects less real effects one person 's make believe easily another person 's reality using drugs bizarre twisted example , one person experiences acid trip cannot guaranteed another person acid trip clinical evidence effects always going happen anyhow , pretty lame example , hopefully made point 's matter perception , long someone ingesting msg perceives causing bad effects , definitely experience affects hand , could allergy food 's , something still , anecdotal evidence worthless 's stuff leads study done dan
carson u washington edu \( julia \) subject arythmia article shelley organization university washington lines 2 nntp posting host carson u washington edu alexis perry asked low blood potassium could dangerous yes zz
hahn csd4 csd uwm edu \( david james hahn \) subject help inject article uwm reply hahn csd4 csd uwm edu organization university wisconsin milwaukee lines 39 nntp posting host 129 89 7 4 originator hahn csd4 csd uwm edu article 1993apr22 vax oxford ac uk , vax oxford ac uk best way self injection use right size needle choose correct spot , usually given intra , use thin needle \( 23 24 \) select spot upper , outer thigh \( major nerves blood vessels \) clean area injection , make sure inject deeply \( different kind pain felt needle enters muscle contrasted skin \) ps try go doctor self treatment self injection avoided far possible areas least likely hurt little fat inject legs gut , prefer gut stick 90 degree angle , barely feel i'm fat , little gut legs however , muscular , pinch get anything , inject 45 degree angle , still hurts rate absorbtion differs muscular injections however 's daily thing would best switch places every day keep although suggest switch legs sides stomach shot , prevent irritation clean spot alcohol prep , wait dry somewhat , may get alcohol puncture , course , n't feel good way prevent mark spot injected good way use little round put spot helps prevent injecting spot , spacing sites \( 1 1 2 apart \) experience , hope 'll help \( diabetes take injection every morning \) later , david david hahn university wisconsin milwaukee hahn csd4 csd uwm edu
mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) subject food related seizures \? nntp posting host aisun3 ai uga edu organization ai programs , university georgia , athens lines 27 article toads pgh pa us geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) writes article 116305 bu edu dozonoff bu edu \( david ozonoff \) writes many cereals corn based post looked literature located two articles implicated corn \( contains tryptophan \) seizures idea corn diet might potentiate already existing latent seizure disorder , cause check see two kellog cereals corn based 'd interested years ago intern , obese young woman brought er comatose reported grand mal seizures attending corn festival pumped stomach obtained seemed like couple liters corn , much intact hours woke fine tempted sign acute corn intoxication gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , corn , e g \? \? \? michael covington , associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu university georgia phone 706 542 0358 athens , georgia 30602 7415 u amateur radio n4tmi
caf omen uucp \( chuck forsberg wa7kgx \) subject new diet works great ! ! ! ! organization omen technology inc , portland rain forest lines 38 article toads pgh pa us geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) writes article 1993apr22 omen uucp caf omen uucp \( chuck forsberg wa7kgx \) writes provide reference substantiate gaining back lost weight constitute weight rebound exceeds starting weight \? oral tradition shared among obesity researchers \? annals ny acad sci 1987 hmmm n't look like references passive aggressive behavior associated weight rebound \? \) purposefully left page numbers encourage reader study volumes mentioned , benefit good story , chuck , wo n't wash read ny acad sci one \( \) could n't find reference weight rebound i'm saying n't , since cited , responsibility show index suspect knowledge base , usual gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon 's page 315 , 2 1 2 inches bottom inch right least know people n't read remembered chuck forsberg wa7kgx ! tektronix ! reed ! omen ! caf author ymodem , zmodem , professional yam , zcomm , dsz omen technology inc high reliability software 17505 v nw sauvie rd portland 97231 503 621 3406
heart access digex com \( g \) subject \( sp \? \) fat free diet pregnancy ! ! organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 80 nntp posting host access digex net hi , 've returned visit ob gyn concerns maybe y'all help 've seeing every 4 weeks past months \( i'm week 28 \) last 2 visits 've gained 9 9 1 2 pounds every 4 weeks said unacceptable 4 week period stands 've thus far gained 26 pounds also says though i'm 28 weeks baby 's size 27 weeks , think mentioned 27 inches top 13 weeks baby 's size 14 weeks must also add , operation years ago endometriosis 've problems endometriosis apparently causing pain pelvic region pregnancy , difficult time moving , doc recommended walk move unless \( little handicapped sticker need go \) anyway 's 1 2 situation almost beginning pregnancy getting sick \( throwing \) 2 3 times day mostly bile eliminated \( told \) know n't eating much due nausea could see well get sick every 1 2 weeks , still bile related addition begun feel movement near upper right abdomen , right breast , usually lying right side began get worse though started hurt lay right side , hurt matter position next , noticed ate greasy fatty foods felt like entire abdomen turned stone , pain area got worse however ate sauerkraut vinegar something fat n't much problem doctor says cholistatis , avoid fatty foods makes sense , already aware seemed cause effect relationship avoiding foods i'm still able eat foods cheese instance low fat foods doc wants non fat diet means meat except fish chicken w skin \( anyway \) nuts , fried food , cheese etc allowed skim milk said avoid anything sweet \( e g bananas \) also must one serving something high carbohydrates day \( potatoes , pasta , rice \) ! said ca n't even cook vegetables little bit oil eat vegetables raw steamed i'm concerned understand need fat diet help digestive process i'm taking fat , expecting baby take stores \? restriction carbohydrates 's concerned fat \? i'm clear much recommendation based weight gain much cholistatis , ca n't seem find information originally said gain 20 pounds entire pregnancy since 20 lbs overweight started sister gained 60 lbs pregnancy 's taken n't problems also asked members family obese , none anyway think overly concerned weight gain , feel like i'm severe diet want see one week think diet may temporary one week want know reasonable non fat diet \? would understand said low fat diet , since i'm trying anyway , even said really low fat diet think assumes must eating high fat diet , really endometriosis operation i'm able use energy food eat opinions , info experiences appreciated i'm truly going stark raving mad trying meet new strict diet fruits vegetables go system minutes 'll end eat constantly thus far n't find foods satisfying thanks g
bbenowit telesciences com \( barry benowitz \) subject prk \( photo refractive \) organization telesciences co systems , inc distribution usa lines 21 interested procedure , able add following facts 1 \) procedure done philadelphia 2 \) performed maryland johns hopkins corrections 0 5 10 20 \( , think units \) 3 \) performed new york city manhattan eye ear corrections 0 6 magic words use requesting information prk \( think mean rk \) laser study \( protocol \) get proper people barry benowitz email bbenowit telesciences com \( ! ! ! bbenowit \) phone 1 609 866 1000 snail telesciences co systems , 351 new albany rd , , nj , 1177
garbo ericsson se \( mats \) subject help kidney stones nntp posting host ericsson se organization ericsson lines 15 n't relatively new treatment kidney stones involving non invasive use ultra sound patient lowered sort liquid undergoes treatment \? i'm sure 've read somewhere remember correctly painless effective treatment couple weeks ago visited hospital stockholm saw big signs showing way kidney stone mats stockholm , sweden
se \( eriksson \) subject science methodology \( homeopathy tradition \? \) keywords science errors turpin nlp organization ab , , sweden lines 14 article im4u cs utexas edu turpin cs utexas edu \( russell turpin \) writes definition science investigation empirical avoids mistakes reasoning methodology discovered previous work reading definition , wonder recognize something mistake \? seems , proponents pseudo sciences might ideas constitutes mistake discoveries previous mistakes accept eriksson , ab , 2 , 702 26 , sweden phone 46 19 33 13 00 ! e mail se fax 46 19 33 13 30 ! ! mail net ! ! !
bill scorch apana org au \( bill dowding \) subject krillean photography organization public unix system , newcastle , oz lines 15 todamhyp charles unlv edu \( brian huey \) writes think 's correct spelling looking information supplies allow yourselfers take krillean pictures i'm thinking education suppliers schools might appartus sale , n't know companies info greatly appreciated krillean photography involves taking pictures minute decapods resident seas surrounding antarctic pictures taken , perhaps bill oz
donald mackie donald mackie med umich edu subject request gyro \( souvlaki \) sauce organization um anesthesiology lines 11 distribution world nntp posting host 141 214 86 38 x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d9 x xxdate fri , 23 apr 93 14 56 04 gmt article 1993apr22 locus com michael trofimoff , tron fafnir la locus com writes would anyone 'net land' happen authentic , sure fire way making great sauce used adorn gyro 's souvlaki \? i'm sure exact recipe , i'm sure acidophilus one major ingredients \) mackie opinions um anesthesiology disavow
cs cmu edu \( jha \) subject intersection syndrome near forearm wrist \? nntp posting host sp cs cmu edu organization school computer science , carnegie mellon lines 17 hi went tuesday diagnosed intersection syndrome prescribed want know disease drug thanks
epfl ch \( \) subject french english translation medical terms organization ecole polytechnique de lausanne lines 41 nntp posting host epfl ch dear netters , sure whether right place post query , thought may bilingual physicians newsgroup could help please , excuse overloading bandwidth trying build resource allocation program managing surgical operating unit hospital user interface english , however terms medical specialties given french \( medical dictionary handy , mine technical university \( \( need get translation english \( one \) following words refer medical categories operating rooms \( \) admit may universally used 1 2 orl 3 4 5 6 7 \( neuro surgery \? \? \) 8 9 10 \( urology \? \? \) thank help cheers , di epfl ch di , ecole polytechnique de lausanne , ch 1015 lausanne , switzerland voice 41 21 693 52 77 41 21 693 66 78 fax 41 21 693 52 25 ps please reply e mail possible since scan quickly messages newsgroup
jgd dixie com \( john de armond \) subject need radiologist read ultrasound \? organization dixie communications public access mouth south lines 28 e j draper draper odin mda uth tmc edu writes wife , would insist radiologist involved process radiologist intensively trained process interpreting diagnostic imaging data aware many things physicians n't aware maybe , maybe new graduate would obviously well trained \( perhaps without sufficient experience \) radiologist trained 10 15 years ago kept continuing education current whole matter ob trained modern radiology technology certainly qualified latter least equal former would want radiologist deliver baby \? would n't , would want ob gyn read ultrasound study \? radiologist also trained ob gyn , \? john john de armond , wd4oqc interested high performance mobility \? performance engineering magazine \( tm \) interested high tech computers \? marietta , ga send ur snail mail address jgd dixie com perform dixie com free sample mag lee harvey oswald ya need ya \?
mmatusev radford vak12ed edu \( melissa n matusevich \) subject help inject organization virginia 's public education network \( radford \) lines 5 according previous poster , one seek doctor 's assistance injections sp \? \? n't one inject oneself immediately upon onset migraine \?
backon vms huji ac il subject diet crohn 's \( ibd \) distribution usa , world organization hebrew university jerusalem lines 52 article 1993apr22 1 vms ocom okstate edu , banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes article 1r6g8finne88 ceti cs unc edu , jge cs unc edu \( john eyles \) writes friend apparently fairly minor case crohn 's disease ca n't seem eat certain foods , fresh vegetables , without discomfort , course wants avoid recurrence question nutritionists specialize problems people crohn 's disease \? \( saw suggestion lipoxygnase inhibitors like tea turmeric \) thanks advance , john eyles friend really find registered dietician \( rd \) work hospitals clinics , many major cities rd 's private practice speak many physicans refer patients crohn 's disease rd 's dietary help get friend 's physician make referral , medical insurance pay rd 's services like services physical therapist better medical insurance plans cover even friend 's plan n't , would well worth cost get good diet control intestinal discomfort help intestinal lining heal crohn 's disease inflammatory disease intestinal lining lipoxygenase inhibitors may help decreasing formation i'm aware tea turmeric containing lipoxygenase inhibitors medline search turmeric 'll see potent lipoxygenase inhibitor investigated number areas i'm cardiology 4 years ago surgery lab hospital compared effect dissolved turmeric vs 2000 tpa preventing injury sheep heart turmeric effective \) colleague mine school pharmacy \( dr ron \) paper press free radical activity activity tea josh backon vms huji ac il bad inflammation , steroids used mild case , side effects worth small benefit gained steroid use developing new lipoxygenase inhibitor greatly help deal inflammatory diseases 's available yet marty b
mhollowa ic sunysb edu \( michael holloway \) subject wanted rat cell line \( adrenal gland cortical c \) organization state university new york stony brook lines 14 nntp posting host engws5 ic sunysb edu keywords adrenal gland cortical cell cell line rat article roos 49 helsinki fi roos helsinki fi \( christophe roos \) writes looking rat cell line adrenal gland cortical cell type looking without success would much appreciate help shot response last night 've tried cancel minutes later driving home remembered message specifically say cortical first reaction suggest line may still good compromise , depending 're using mouse cell line one antigen transgenic lines \? another alternative might primary cells adrenal cortex mike
jkjec westminster ac uk \( shazad barlas \) subject need help scaring please organization university westminster distribution sci med lines 18 hi need information scaring particularly result grazing skin really wanted know 1 would scar occur result grazing 2 yes , would disappear \? 3 long take heal \? 4 hair grow healed \? 5 \? 6 cream applied regularly \? 7 better keep exposed let fresh air \? please help info matter small appreciated greatly please e mail directly dont read newsgroup often \( first time \) shaz
uabdpo dpo uab edu ! gila005 \( stephen holland \) subject diet crohn 's \( ibd \) organization gastroenterology univ alabama distribution usa lines 81 summary thread person , raw vegetables cause problems \( \) steve holland replies patient may mild obstruction avoid things would plug crohn 's dietary restriction general article 1993apr22 aio jsc nasa gov , spenser fudd jsc nasa gov \( spenser aden \) wrote interesting statements , simply told otherwise i'm certainly questioning steve 's claims , one doctor , agree foods n't bring recurrence crohn 's inflammation either mildly drastically enhanced due food feeling changed gi community current feeling inflammation induced food even evidence patients deprived food mucosal atrophy due lack stimulation intestinal growth factors interest providing small amounts feeding patients iv nutrition digress symptoms drastically enhanced food , inflammation one major obstruction resulting \( good enough caveat \) , told low residue diet called basically , idea inflammation gut \( may realized patient \) , residue system caught folds inflammation constantly irritate , thus problem therefore , anything n't digest completely point common inflammation avoided 've told typical crohn 's , terminal , diet low residue , consisting completely never items corn \( kernel n't digest us know \) popcorn \( \) dried \( dehydrated \) fruit fruit skins nuts \( tough comes giving fudge \) low residue diet appropriate still , felt food causes inflammation foods avoided may get stuck 'd go ahead fudge , though \) discouraged greatly raw vegetables \( \) wheat raw grain exotic lettuce \( iceberg ok since 's apparently mostly water \) \( , mustard , kale , etc \) little seeds , like \( try getting 's without ! \) long grain wild rice \( husky \) beans \( 'll generate enough gas alone without ! \) basically anything requires heavy digestive processing told processed food better ! \( rather ironic day age \) whole point preventative want give system little chance possible told among numerous things heavily discouraged \( listed \) , try ones wanted see felt 's bad , n't ! remember though remission veggies cook prefer think 's cooks thoroughly 're mileage may vary anything else , check doctor n't take word info 've given , may starting point discussion good luck ! spencer makes especially good point informed patient would many patients able tell causes problems digestive processing idea changing , food causes problems , avoid sure foods tested second time sure food real cause crohn 's commonly causes intermittent symptoms patients end severly restricted diets take months good article newsletter recently discussed issue dietary restriction fiber would worth reading anyone interest crohn 's , always say dealing crohn 's , spencer , good luck ! steve holland
uabdpo dpo uab edu ! gila005 \( stephen holland \) subject diet crohn 's \( ibd \) organization gastroenterology univ alabama distribution usa lines 48 article 1993apr22 1 vms ocom okstate edu , banschbach vms ocom okstate edu wrote article 1r6g8finne88 ceti cs unc edu , jge cs unc edu \( john eyles \) writes friend apparently fairly minor case crohn 's disease ca n't seem eat certain foods , fresh vegetables , without discomfort , course wants avoid recurrence question nutritionists specialize problems people crohn 's disease \? \( saw suggestion lipoxygnase inhibitors like tea turmeric \) thanks advance , john eyles friend really find registered dietician \( rd \) work hospitals clinics , many major cities rd 's private practice speak many physicans refer patients crohn 's disease rd 's dietary help get friend 's physician make referral , medical insurance pay rd 's services like services physical therapist better medical insurance plans cover even friend 's plan n't , would well worth cost get good diet control intestinal discomfort help intestinal lining heal crohn 's disease inflammatory disease intestinal lining lipoxygenase inhibitors may help decreasing formation i'm aware tea turmeric containing lipoxygenase inhibitors bad inflammation , steroids used mild case , side effects worth small benefit gained steroid use developing new lipoxygenase inhibitor greatly help deal inflammatory diseases 's available yet marty b sure dietician date crohn 's colitis previously , low residue diets recommended , advice changed also , differences advice patients without remaining , input physician important find dietician important practice , send patients dietician course seeing , since know much better get diet histories evaluate contents diet steve holland
jag ampex com \( \) subject homeopathy respectable medical tradition \? nntp posting host s4 21 organization ampex corporation , redwood city ca lines 27 article pitt uucp geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) writes article oracle nl rgasch nl oracle com \( robert gasch \) writes many european countries accepted method curing \( least \) many conditions modern medicine answer countries insurance pays treatments accepted \? scientists people every country waste time money quackery britain , worked , paid countries \? n't believe britain \? , information different miranda castro , complete homeopathy handbook , isbn 0 312 2 , published britain 1990 page 10 , 1946 , national health service established , homeopathy included officially approved method treatment
tony nexus yorku ca \( anthony wallis \) subject choleric great nt nf semantic war organization york university lines 64 cross posted alt psychology personality since talks physician 's personalities apologies sci med readers familiar myers briggs nt nf personality terms , word two , nts \( intuitive thinkers \) approximately philosophy science tech pragmatic types , nfs \( intuitive \) humanities social science theology idealistic types hate others' guts \( \) \) tend inter marry letter j reference jon noring typical nf type stuff physicians responding natural way hyper choleric syndrome \( \) fascinating disproportionate number physicians type nt one driving characteristic nt , especially , obvious choleric behavior \( driver , type , etc \) extreme emotional need control , lead , best competent please get right , jon \( strong desire correct semantic mistakes , nfs world pristine nt intellectual nest verbal \) dominant correlation nt phlegmatic \( nt choleric \) one semantic roots choleric idea hot \( emotional \) one semantic roots phlegmatic cold \( \) thumbnail sketch \( taken hans , refering \) relating ancient greek quadratic modern terms emotional \( melancholic \) \( choleric \) thoughtful suspicious quickly unhappy worried anxious serious active calm reasonable steadfast persistent hopeful highly principled controlled controlled easy going \( phlegmatic \) \( \) v non emotional suspect nts choleric psych types call projection nf ness onto us maybe need nf doctor 's \) perhaps serious little boy 's got nose , doctor general practice , , please god , neurology , , urology , etc etc nf psychiatry seperate nt \( e real \) psychiatry given new name something like \) tony nexus yorku ca tony wallis , york university , toronto , canada
noring netcom com \( jon noring \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 45 article uxa cso uiuc edu \( daniel paul \) writes bruce data io com \( bruce reynolds \) writes evidence worthless even doctors using drug treatment years , swear effective , often suprised results clinical trials whether msg causes , , symptoms pretty simple discover quite leap logic observe one situation anecdotal evidence led nowhere therefore conclude anecdotal evidence never lead anywhere i'm sure somebody provide example anecdotal evidence \( interpretation \) upheld verified follow rigorous clinical trials tend disagree think anecdotal evidence , provided lot , fairly consistent , important first , points necessity study , second , least says effects psychological \( possibly allergy case \) 've pointed person 's make believe easily another person 's reality good point tendency newsgroup circle wagons viewpoint anecdotal medical evidence worthless \( maybe counter claims presenting anecdotal evidence support controversial subjects , yeast hypothesis \) evidence evidence requires jury process sort determine truth junk medicine must continue strive better understand workings body mind purpose illness anecdotal evidence one piece puzzle worthless rather , help focus limited resources right direction jon noring charter member infj club 're dying know infj means , brave , e mail , 'll send info jon noring noring netcom com jkn international ip 192 100 81 100 fred's gourmet chocolate 1312 carlton place phone \( 510 \) 294 8153 chips world 's best ! livermore , ca 94550 v mail \( 510 \) 417 4101 \? read alt psychology personality ! 's action
banschbach vms ocom okstate edu subject prevent kidney stone formation lines 154 nntp posting host vms ocom okstate edu organization osu college osteopathic medicine got asked sci med nutrition vitamin c oxalate production \( toxic , kidney stone formation \? \) decided post answer well recent question kidney stones long got sci med got flamed medical fellow stating magnesium would prevent kidney stone formation i'm going state best way prevent kidney stones forming take b6 supplements read find \( asbestos suit guys \) vitamin c form oxalic acid large doses needed \( 6 grams per day \) 1 review article nutritional factors calcium containing kidney stones particular emphasis vitamin c int clin nutr rev 5 \( 3 \) 110 129 \( 1985 \) glycine also forms oxalic acid \( amino acid \) glycine vitamin c , one best ways drastically reduce production cut back dietary intake vitamin c glycine , increase intake vitamin b6 2 control large doses patients kidney stones int urol 20 \( 4 \) 353 59 \( 1988 \) 200 500 mg b6 day decreased urinary excretion oxalate 18 month treatment program 3 action primary clin sci 38 277 86 \( 1970 \) patients receiving least b6 day showed significant reduction urinary oxalate levels , effect due increased activity \( b6 required activity \) makes less glycine available oxidative \( amino acid \) vitamin c , effect quite different different pathways vitamin c pathway leads oxalic acid formation usually 17 40 ingested dose going oxalic acid highly variable vitamin c review article pointed unless dose gets upto 6 grams per day , much vitamin c gets form oxalic acid high doses vitamin c \( 10 grams per day \) , extra vitamin c \( 40 conversion \) end oxalic acid early study vitamin c oxalic production \( proc soc exp biol med 85 190 92 \( 1954 \) , 2 grams per day 9 grams per day increased average oxalic acid excretion per day per day 8 grams per day reached , average increased 3 per day \( 2 gram dose , 4 gram dose , 8 gram dose dose \) 8 grams jumped average excretion supplementation 9 grams jumped 150 mg average supplementation b6 required enzymes vitamin body probably enzymes require vitamin b6 n't know yet vitamin c still completely understood speculation pathway form oxalic acid must enzyme requires b6 differences b6 levels could explain variable production oxalic acid vitamin c challenge \( preferred route \) increasing intake b6 would result less oxalic acid take vitamin c supplements since typical american diet deficient b6 , researchers believe main cause calcium oxalate kidney stones b6 deficiency \( especially since little oxalic acid gets absorbed gut \) diets providing 0 oxalic acid per day showed absolutely change urinary excretion oxalate \( urol int 35 309 15 , 1980 \) present day , significant increase urinary oxalate excretion high oxalate foods 1 beans , coca , instant coffee , , , tea contain least 2 beet tops , , , chocolate , , , kale , peanuts , pepper , sweet contain 10 25 mg threshold per day , see really lot latitude food selection recent n eng j med article also points one good way prevent kidney stone formation increase intake calcium prevent dietary oxalate absorbed also increase intake b6 , n't worry kidney stones rda b6 per day males 1 per day females \( directly related protein intake \) b6 toxic \( nerve damage \) consumed doses per day extended \( weeks months \) usda food survey done 1986 average intake 1 87 mg per day males 1 per day females living u coupled low intake high protein diet \( greatly increases b6 requirement \) , well presence 40 different drugs either block b6 absorption , metabolic b6 , promote b6 excretion urine common ones birth control pills , alcohol , , , tell students supplement patients going get drugs increase b6 requirement dose recommended patients taking birth control pills 10 per day work drugs increase b6 requirement \( would top dietary intake b6 \) patient history kidney stone formation given b6 supplements one good way prevent kidney stone formation make sure ca mg dietary ratio 2 1 magnesium oxalate much soluble calcium oxalate 4 magnesium calcium ratio concentrated patients calcium oxalate invest urol 10 147 \( 1972 \) 5 effect magnesium magnesium oxide calcium urine changes food magnesium interaction j urol 143 \( 2 \) 248 51 \( 1990 \) 6 review article , magnesium treatment renal calcium stones j med 161 \( 1 \) 25 27 \( 1987 \) actually three times many articles published medical literature role magnesium preventing kidney stone formation b6 thought pretty safe stating magnesium would prevent kidney stone formation earlier post news group good old john mass jumped guess n't read medical literature oh well , since kidney stones real pain lot people suffer , thought 'd tell avoid pain stay doctor 's office martin banschbach , ph professor biochemistry chairman department biochemistry microbiology osu college osteopathic medicine 1111 w 17th street tulsa , ok 74107 without discourse , remembering , without remembering , learning , without learning , ignorance wise man lived china , many , many years ago think still meaning today 's world
kxgst1 pitt edu \( kenneth gilbert \) subject request gyro \( souvlaki \) sauce organization university pittsburgh lines 19 article terminator rs itd umich edu donald mackie med umich edu \( donald mackie \) writes article 1993apr22 locus com michael trofimoff , tron fafnir la locus com writes would anyone 'net land' happen authentic , sure fire way making great sauce used adorn gyro 's souvlaki \? i'm sure exact recipe , i'm sure acidophilus one major ingredients \) 've ever seen include plain yogurt , chopped cucumber couple crushed garlic kenneth gilbert university pittsburgh general internal medicine dammit , programmer !
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject great post ! \( candida \( yeast \) bloom \) \( long \) reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 50 article netcom com noring netcom com \( jon noring \) writes hate wreck elaborate theory , steve dyer md professional doctors help patients nystatin , etc , ca n't well come picture steve n't patients response specificially candida albicans , showed strong positive another question , would everybody show strong positive test essentially useless \? , assuming true candida grow yes , everyone normal use candida arm put test people n't react candida , assume tb test conclusive since people may react anything normal people antibodies candida , would quickly turn fungus ball brings interesting observation used deny reject aspects 'yeast appropriate studies done ca n't observe culture yeast bloom gut sinus , 's way diagnose even recognize disease know realize virtually impossible test candida overbloom part body cannot easily observed since candida everywhere body 's real catch 22 've discovered one requirements good quack theory find something one disprove write book saying cause whatever since one disprove , rake bucks quite time often wondered chronic gi distress sinus problems would problem tells patients non existent syndrome odd , n't \? suppose mds common problems n't go crazy ideas \? professional extend suffering silence , even though know could cured followed quack book \? gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject homeopathy respectable medical tradition \? reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 26 article yb ampex com jag ampex com \( \) writes miranda castro , complete homeopathy handbook , isbn 0 312 2 , published britain 1990 page 10 , 1946 , national health service established , homeopathy included officially approved method treatment 1976 suppose must died since 1946 , certainly never heard homeopaths employ nhs perhaps law codified authorities refused hire homeopaths similar law us allows chiropractors practice va hospitals 've never seen one n't know single va hired chiropractor lot net , someone able tell us nhs provides homeopaths gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
envy reed edu \( joel alexander \) subject epstein barr syndrome questions article reed 1993apr23 reply reed edu organization reed college , portland , lines 19 okay , long shot friend robin recurring bouts type symptoms , regularly going number years 's seen number doctors six last count , think said either mono 're full 's nothing wrong one admitted idea wrong , one claimed epstein barr syndrome , told ebs doctors even believe exists \( obviously , experience \) , 's story \? real \? medical profession believe real \? anyone success treating ebs \? something live \? thanks assistance joel reed edu horde
paulson tab00 larc nasa gov \( sharon paulson \) subject food related seizures \? organization nasa langley research center , hampton va , usa lines 48 toads pgh pa us athena cs uga edu nntp posting host cmb00 larc nasa gov reply mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu 's message fri , 23 apr 1993 03 41 24 gmt article athena cs uga edu mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) writes newsgroups sci med path news larc nasa gov ! primate wisc edu ! sdd hp com ! elroy jpl nasa gov ! ! zaphod mps ohio state edu ! howland reston ans net ! europa eng gtefsd com ! emory ! athena ! aisun3 ai uga edu ! mcovingt mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) sender usenet athena cs uga edu nntp posting host aisun3 ai uga edu organization ai programs , university georgia , athens references paulson cmb00 larc nasa gov 116305 bu edu toads pgh pa us date fri , 23 apr 1993 03 41 24 gmt lines 27 article toads pgh pa us geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) writes article 116305 bu edu dozonoff bu edu \( david ozonoff \) writes many cereals corn based post looked literature located two articles implicated corn \( contains tryptophan \) seizures idea corn diet might potentiate already existing latent seizure disorder , cause check see two kellog cereals corn based 'd interested years ago intern , obese young woman brought er comatose reported grand mal seizures attending corn festival pumped stomach obtained seemed like couple liters corn , much intact hours woke fine tempted sign acute corn intoxication gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , corn , e g \? \? \? michael covington , associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu university georgia phone 706 542 0358 athens , georgia 30602 7415 u amateur radio n4tmi \? sharon sharon paulson paulson larc nasa gov nasa langley research center bldg , mailstop 156 work \( 804 \) 864 2241 hampton , virginia 23681 home \( 804 \) 596 2362
psych uiuc edu \( frank \) subject choleric great nt nf semantic war organization university illinois urbana lines 6 also remember people map choleric phlegmatic division onto dimensions \( like \) deal \( costa \) frank
grante aquarius rosemount com \( grant edwards \) subject krillean photography reply grante aquarius rosemount com \( grant edwards \) organization rosemount , inc lines 41 nntp posting host aquarius stgprao st unocal com \( richard ottolini \) writes living things maintain small electric fields \( 1 \) enhance certain chemical reactions , \( 2 \) promote communication states cell , \( 3 \) communicate cells \( nervous system specialized example \) , perhaps uses true electric fields change location time large organism also true special photographic techniques applying external fields photography interact fields resistances caused fields make interesting pictures really kirlian photography taking pictures corona discharge objects \( inanimate \) fields applied objects millions times larger biologically created fields want record biologically created electric fields , 've got use low noise , high gain sensors typical kirlian photography physics type stuff \( right soaking chunks extra fine steel wool liquid oxygen hitting hammer , like setup , fun possibly dangerous \) perhaps pictures disease problems organisms better understood perhaps probably grant edwards yow ! vote i'm rosemount inc well , half cocked , ill conceived grante aquarius rosemount com tax !
rind enterprise bih harvard edu \( david rind \) subject arrhythmia organization beth israel hospital , harvard medical school , boston mass , usa lines 26 nntp posting host enterprise bih harvard edu article 1993apr22 husc3 harvard edu husc10 harvard edu \( alexis perry \) writes article 1993apr22 1 vaxc stevens tech edu u96 vaxc stevens tech edu writes doctors said could die , medication caused serious \? ekg often comes back irregular beats another question low blood potassium level bad \? doctor seems concerned , tends worry much general term arrhythmia usually used encompass wide range abnormal heart \( cardiac \) serious others completely benign irregular beats ekg could serious depending beats occurred , could significance low blood potassium levels probably people underlying heart disease develop arrhythmias low potassium levels clearly dangerous , clear much problem low end normal levels lot seem treat anyone even mildly low normal potassium level david rind rind enterprise bih harvard edu
rind enterprise bih harvard edu \( david rind \) subject candida \( yeast \) bloom , fact fiction organization beth israel hospital , harvard medical school , boston mass , usa lines 17 nntp posting host enterprise bih harvard edu article 1993apr22 1 vms ocom okstate edu banschbach vms ocom okstate edu writes poster treated liscenced physician disease exist calling physician quack reprehensible steve see others well believe quacks exist \? quack diagnoses \? licensed physician enough guarantee someone quack , even licensed physician quack , people n't say \? give example commonly diagnosed ailment think quack diagnosis , gotten point civilization longer need worry unscrupulous healers taking advantage people david rind rind enterprise bih harvard edu
chorley vms ocom okstate edu subject homeopathy respectable medical tradition \? lines 43 nntp posting host vms ocom okstate edu organization osu college osteopathic medicine article b11 toads pgh pa us , geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) writes article yb ampex com jag ampex com \( \) writes miranda castro , complete homeopathy handbook , isbn 0 312 2 , published britain 1990 page 10 , 1946 , national health service established , homeopathy included officially approved method treatment 1976 suppose must died since 1946 , certainly never heard homeopaths employ nhs perhaps law codified authorities refused hire homeopaths similar law us allows chiropractors practice va hospitals 've never seen one n't know single va hired chiropractor lot net , someone able tell us nhs provides homeopaths n't think provide homeopaths , heck heir apparent trying promote ranks eligibility couple years back pleased family end , since i'm osteopathic school , sort validated told name practice different oh 're seeking validation philosophy strength national health service adopting , suggest sure validity philosophy believe 1946 , nhs still nurses taught fine art , vacuum extraction fluids means heating cup , placing afflicted site allowing cool would n't take sick daughter david n chorley yikes , i'm agreeing gordon banks
klier iscsvax uni edu subject modified sense taste cancer pt \? organization university northern iowa lines 16 article 1993apr21 dec com , helix enet dec com \( dave \) writes lack taste foods , sense taste seems eating foods someone cancer mean \? possible causes \? happen \? ca n't answer questions , 've seen happen family members treated radiation chemotherapy graham published cookbook many years ago \( cooperation american cancer society , think \) called something taste good \( recall \) cookbook needed several times favorite foods suddenly became kay klier biology dept uni
turpin cs utexas edu \( russell turpin \) subject great post ! \( candida \( yeast \) bloom \) \( long \) summary virtually \? organization cs dept , university texas austin lines 30 nntp posting host im4u cs utexas edu article netcom com noring netcom com \( jon noring \) writes ca n't observe culture yeast bloom gut sinus , 's way diagnose even recognize disease know realize virtually impossible test candida overbloom part body cannot easily observed since candida everywhere body article toads pgh pa us geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) writes 've discovered one requirements good quack theory find something one disprove write book saying cause whatever since one disprove , rake bucks quite time hope gordon banks mean imply notions hard see candida infections causing various problems investigated many researchers made breakthroughs figuring investigate things previously thought virtually impossible test indeed , would surprised candida overbloom phenomena would think candida would produce signature whose measure would set lower bound extent recent infection realize might get quite tricky difficult , probably expensive , likely inconvenient uncomfortable subjects , virtually impossible russell
bmdelane quads uchicago edu \( brian manning delaney \) subject diet crohn 's \( ibd \) reply bmdelane midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 27 one thing n't seen thread discussion relation ibd inflammation profile ingested fatty acids \( fas \) diagnosed last may w crohn 's terminal got hospital read bit , came across several studies investigating role epa \( essentially fa \) reducing inflammation evidence mixed many studies discussed inflammatory bowel disease , , 1992 recall correctly , methodological bones picked studies \( ones w pos w neg results \) studies patients given epa \( grams day studies \) , , recall correctly , restriction fas patients could consume informed 's perspective , seems mistaken lots n 6 fas consumed along epa , ratio bad products good products could still fairly bad n't ratio issue \? 's view community epa days \? epa supplements , along fairly severe restriction fas appear helped significantly \( though could low absolute amount fat eat 8 10 calories \) brian bmdelane midway uchicago edu
andrew calvin dgbt doc ca \( andrew patrick \) subject interest mailing list epilepsy seizures \? nntp posting host calvin dgbt doc ca organization communications research centre , ottawa , canada lines 36 seen fair bit traffic recently concerning epilepsy seizures also interested subject son epilepsy active local association posted message like months ago received replies , anyone interested participating mailing list epilepsy seizures \? would allow us hold discussions share information via electronic mail already run listserver two groups , mechanics would easy interested , mail note get enough replies , make happen provide details btw , also started database epilepsy part research natural language question answering systems users service able ask questions epilepsy program searches database best response technology works comparing question set questions seen new questions answered recorded used improve system database still small sparse , adding new information try , following telnet debra dgbt doc ca login chat select epilepsy item menu databases andrew patrick , ph communications research centre , ottawa , canada andrew calvin dgbt doc ca good time , run telnet debra dgbt doc ca login chat
bmdelane quads uchicago edu \( brian manning delaney \) subject epstein barr syndrome questions keywords cfs reply bmdelane midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 47 article 1993apr23 reed edu reed edu writes okay , long shot friend robin recurring bouts type symptoms , regularly going number years 's seen number doctors six last count , think said either mono 're full 's nothing wrong one admitted idea wrong , one claimed epstein barr syndrome , told ebs doctors even believe exists \( obviously , experience \) , 's story \? real \? medical profession believe real \? anyone success treating ebs \? something live \? thanks assistance outbreaks chronic mono like entity originally called ebs \( variant thereof \) people disease elevated levels antibodies virus , prompted official renaming disease chronic fatigue syndrome \( renaming took place annals internal medicine , jan 1988 , believe \) 's also called chronic fatigue immune dysfunction syndrome \( \) , since seems clear sort immune causing probs , still docs tell people massively swollen glands , recurrent , etc , 's nothing wrong thing saying syndrome may \( least partly \) psychological cause disagreement among people whose thoughts worth considering centers cause one knows , theories include psychological stress , sort virus \( , say maybe one newly discovered herpes viruses \) , environmental toxins , bacteria \( , yes , candida \) , genes , \( \) combo 's outright cure moment , different docs try different things , seem help massive amounts info condition available days post q alt med cfs , flooded w facts note lots far better understood \( better treatable \) diseases look like make sure get ruled good doc
cfaks ux1 cts eiu edu \( alice sanders \) subject frozen shoulder lawn mowing organization eastern illinois university lines 12 frozen shoulder year year still partially frozen , still physical therapy every week pain subsided almost completely last week lawn twenty minutes , two days row push type power mower pain started back little bit first time quite , used ice medicine anybody explain particular activity , seem stress much generally , cause shoulder problem \? thanks alice
noring netcom com \( jon noring \) subject great post ! \( candida \( yeast \) bloom \) \( long \) organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 38 article turpin cs utexas edu \( russell turpin \) writes hope gordon banks mean imply notions hard see candida infections causing various problems investigated many researchers made breakthroughs figuring investigate things previously thought virtually impossible test indeed , would surprised candida overbloom phenomena would think candida would produce signature whose measure would set lower bound extent recent infection realize might get quite tricky difficult , probably expensive , likely inconvenient uncomfortable subjects , virtually impossible recall reading recently revised edition yeast connection indeed work researchers course , working theory candida overbloom penetration mucus membrane tissue associated mild inflammatory response occur large number people reject yeast hypothesis , 'd guess 'd view research one wasteful endeavor stay tuned jon noring charter member infj club 're dying know infj means , brave , e mail , 'll send info jon noring noring netcom com jkn international ip 192 100 81 100 fred's gourmet chocolate 1312 carlton place phone \( 510 \) 294 8153 chips world 's best ! livermore , ca 94550 v mail \( 510 \) 417 4101 \? read alt psychology personality ! 's action
uabdpo dpo uab edu ! gila005 \( stephen holland \) subject diet crohn 's \( ibd \) organization gastroenterology univ alabama lines 54 article 1993apr23 midway uchicago edu , bmdelane quads uchicago edu \( brian manning delaney \) wrote one thing n't seen thread discussion relation ibd inflammation profile ingested fatty acids \( fas \) diagnosed last may w crohn 's terminal got hospital read bit , came across several studies investigating role epa \( essentially fa \) reducing inflammation evidence mixed many studies discussed inflammatory bowel disease , , 1992 recall correctly , methodological bones picked studies \( ones w pos w neg results \) studies patients given epa \( grams day studies \) , , recall correctly , restriction fas patients could consume informed 's perspective , seems mistaken lots n 6 fas consumed along epa , ratio bad products good products could still fairly bad n't ratio issue \? 's view community epa days \? epa supplements , along fairly severe restriction fas appear helped significantly \( though could low absolute amount fat eat 8 10 calories \) brian bmdelane midway uchicago edu note , research mixed , consensus role fatty acids colitis role short chain fatty acids patients rectal \( short shorter \) may role treatment uc short chain fatty acids , looking forward upcoming meeting boston see people raise hypothesis studies restriction fatty acids contact authors directly even write letter editor good point way , abbreviation epa general use , know fatty acid speaking brian u c physician named stephen recognized expert treatment ibd might give call interested new combinations drugs treatment ibd call please say hello , looking u c position , perhaps still sure look joining best luck steve holland
lundby rtsg mot com \( walter f lundby \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? nntp posting host organization motorola inc , cellular infrastructure group lines 23 article 1993apr20 jpl nasa gov julie eddie jpl nasa gov \( julie kangas \) writes foods taste i'm allergic msg like taste , n't use \? saying n't use like saying n't eat spicy food neighbor ulcer nobody saying n't allowed use msg n't force others food want enhance msg put msg table like salt option eater use make commerical product , leave include packet \( like salt packets \) desire salt , pepper , mustard , , table options treat msg way would n't shove throat , n't shove mine walter lundby
noring netcom com \( jon noring \) subject quack quack \( candida \( yeast \) bloom , fact fiction \) organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 69 article rind enterprise bih harvard edu \( david rind \) writes believe quacks exist \? quack diagnoses \? licensed physician enough guarantee someone quack , even licensed physician quack , people n't say \? give example commonly diagnosed ailment think quack diagnosis , gotten point civilization longer need worry unscrupulous healers taking advantage people would say also significant numbers unscrupulous doctors \( squeaky clean , traditional crew cut , talk ama starting treatment , kind \) recommend treatments , though accepted , may necessary patient time making quick buck would surprised cost medical services u significantly inflated quacks different color fact , 'd say doctors dangerous since call question true focus medical profession ama boards focus quacks instead unbelievable energy destroy pull licenses doctors trying non traditional fully accepted treatments desperate patients traditional accepted medicine cannot help make general comment many recent posts lately 've seen word quack bandied recklessly doctor doctor wanna decided quit discussing controversial medical subject civilized manner , say quack quack somehow magically expect readership newsgroup roll backs pee pee obedience teach medical school throw authority around \? let put another way make point clear quack nebulous word lacking precision sole use obfuscate issues hand indiscriminate use word sure sign coming medical doctor \( wanna \) , competency expected , real scary know , 've already diagnosed sci med gods newsgroup , look forward net diagnoses hey , 're free jon quacks 'r us noring \( p , may suggest seriously doctors wanna doctors net refuse open mind alternative treatments theories , yeast theory , create moderated group call sci med traditional moderated sci med ama approved , keep anal like \) charter member infj club 're dying know infj means , brave , e mail , 'll send info jon noring noring netcom com jkn international ip 192 100 81 100 fred's gourmet chocolate 1312 carlton place phone \( 510 \) 294 8153 chips world 's best ! livermore , ca 94550 v mail \( 510 \) 417 4101 \? read alt psychology personality ! 's action
ncr com \( dave lord \) subject request gyro \( souvlaki \) sauce reply ncr com \( dave lord \) organization ncr engineering manufacturing , san diego , ca lines 13 article terminator rs itd umich edu , donald mackie donald mackie med umich edu writes article 1993apr22 locus com michael trofimoff , tron fafnir la locus com writes would anyone 'net land' happen authentic , sure fire way making great sauce used adorn gyro 's souvlaki \? i'm sure exact recipe , i'm sure acidophilus one major ingredients \) 's plain yoghurt cucumber \( spices sometimes used \) people use half yoghurt half
pfc forestry ca \( sherry \) subject heat shock proteins nntp posting host pfc pfc forestry ca reply pfc forestry ca organization forestry canada \( pacific forestry centre \) lines 25 rousseaua immunex com writes heat shock proteins \( 's \) dna hate derogatory , case think 's warranted 's part cellular response stress reason called shock first demonstrated using heat shock dead tissue \( ie meat \) going produce protein 's dead ! also , cares dna ingesting ! \? completely digested stomach , ph 2 worry way much eat healthy , balanced diet relax advice , n't know talking , better keep mouth shut open remove doubt ignorance n't speculate , least get concrete information ! sherry sherry title lab technician forestry canada phone \( 604 \) 363 0600 victoria , b c internet a1 pfc forestry ca
paj uk co gec mrc \( paul johnson \) subject poisoning heavy water \( many mris \? \) reply paj uk co gec mrc \( paul johnson \) organization gec marconi research centre , great baddow , uk lines 61 article 1993apr19 informix com proberts informix com \( paul roberts \) writes article 1993apr12 kestrel edu king reasoning com \( dick king \) writes recall reading somewhere , youth , science book , changes n't normally affect chemistry , consumption heavy water would fatal , seeds watered heavy water sprout anyone know \? also heard always thought might make good someone poisoned heavy water would n't show chemical test one else seems know , 'll post topic came sci physics fusion shortly cold fusion flap started recall , done experimental mice showed various ill effects eventually died reason deuterium exactly reaction rates hydrogen due extra mass \( causes lower velocity , constant , mumble \) throws various bits body biochemistry , get sick die 've never heard anyone way , real life process takes quite anyone wants write book , would imagine would 1 replace significant fraction water body heavy water 2 wait normal breakdown repair processes cause molecules body using deuterium process victim would gradually deteriorate eventually die , imagine would take weeks would ensure significant proportion water victim ingested heavy would get mess symptoms doctors would alarmed confused every organ body suddenly begin deteriorate \? figure gets heavy water victim hospital could real story come think , 2 would continue even heavy water longer ingested , might late detectable effect would victim 's body fluids would literally heavy water molecular weight 18 heavy water mw 20 thus victim 's weight increase 1 every 10 body water replaced heavy water maybe detection occurs pathologist lab notices victim 's urine strangely dense medical test involving specific gravity body fluid \? paul paul johnson \( paj gec mrc co uk \) tel 44 245 73331 ext 3245 ideas others like gec marconi research 0 02 reputable idealist responsible opinions
bbenowit telesciences com \( barry benowitz \) subject eye dominance reply rsilver world std com 's message mon , 12 apr 1993 21 02 31 gmt nntp posting host organization telesciences co systems , inc lines 24 article c5e2g7 877 world std com rsilver world std com \( richard silver \) writes right eye dominance \( eyedness \? \) overall right handedness population \? mean people require less lens corrections one eye \? , kinds percentages attached \? thanks yes , thing eye dominance , although sure dominance refers strength recall , selectively close dominant eye , image shifts happen close eye believe eye dominant related handedness , ca n't recall relation moment barry benowitz email bbenowit telesciences com \( ! ! ! bbenowit \) phone 1 609 866 1000 snail telesciences co systems , 351 new albany rd , , nj , 1177
v lst msk su subject sale ! \( see letter \) reply lst msk su organization laboratory systems technology , ltd lines 17 cooperation state scientific center antibiotics elaborated technology bee venom components isolation , particularly , using modern companies , application materials , admitted manufacturing production high quality product acknowledged expertise accredited test laboratory firm test v rf less 92 primary substance content quantity 100 g 5 kg date manufacture march 1993 price 2500 usa per 1g certificate sale adress , moscow , val , 10 , partnership ltd tel fax 194 86 04 , 369 46 68
nigel dataman demon co uk \( nigel ballard \) subject adult chicken pox distribution world organization infamy inc reply nigel dataman demon co uk x newsreader simple news 1 90 \( ka9q dis 1 21 \) lines 19 35 recovering case chicken pox contracted 5 year old daughter quite little puppies point longer infectious \? physician 's office says true \? boat last year 've tried four times send email response , end n't seem accept mail \? please let know receive cheers nigel nigel ballard int nigel dataman demon co uk vacant lot uk cis radio rent diaries famous colonel custer surrounded indians , chinese !
bnr ca \( ellis \) subject help kidney stones organization bnr inc rtp , nc lines 8 think kidney stones doctor tells , definitely follow sister diagnosed kidney stones 1 1 2 years ago given medication take dissolve failed continued great pain , decided endometriosis surgery , discovered tumor , turned rare agressive cancer realize happens majority cases , never know happen n't take chances !
subject isolate \? eis calstate edu \( christopher \) organization calif state univ electronic information services lines 13 anyone newsgroup happen know morphine first isolated \? know , idea could look find info , please mail csh would greatly appreciated kilimanjaro pretty tricky climb 's , reach , top , tends slope away rather sharply sir george head , \( jc \) logic point frozen , beast dead , difference \? gavin \( jc \)
daniel prince f129 n102 z1 calcom socal com \( daniel prince \) subject msg sensitivity superstition \? lines 12 milsh nmr z mgh harvard edu \( alex milshteyn \) said , might add , mho , msg enhance flavor miss go chinese places , order food without msg , msg tastes like mixture salt sugar n't think case people taste like \? wishes horses , 'd wear hip boots ! origin one world los angeles 310 372 \( 1 102 129 0 \)
daniel prince f129 n102 z1 calcom socal com \( daniel prince \) subject men get yeast infections \? lines 13 mentor cc purdue edu \( lost boy \) lb know personal experience men get yeast infections lb get rather nasty ones time time , mostly area lb base penis used problems recurrent athlete 's foot started drying toes blow time also dry pubic area prevent problems might want try cat types tail origin one world los angeles 310 372 \( 1 102 129 0 \)
et teal csn org \( eric h taylor \) subject gravity waves , predicting gravity wave quantization cosmic noise summary dong dong hear death knell relativity \? keywords space , curvature , nothing , tesla nntp posting host teal csn org organization 4 l laboratories distribution world expires wed , 28 apr 1993 06 00 00 gmt lines 30 article well sf ca us metares well sf ca us \( tom van flandern \) writes kelvin seas virginia edu \( cameron bass \) writes bruce scott launchpad unc edu \( bruce scott \) writes existence undefined unless synonymous observable physics dong dong dong hear death knell string theory \? agree add dark matter quarks lot , purely theoretical constructs physics list , including omni present black holes bruce argue existence inferred theory alone \? original criticism , said curvature exist relative something non curved \? bruce replied undefined unless synonymous physics cannot observe four dimensions know moment n't see way defend statement existence phenomena simultaneously tom hold space cannot curved , simple reason properties properties speak dealing matter filling space say presence large bodies space becomes curved , equivalent stating something act upon nothing , one , refuse subscribe view tesla et tesla 100 years ahead time perhaps time comes
leech cs unc edu \( jon leech \) subject space faq 06 15 constants equations keywords frequently asked questions article cs constants expires 6 may 1993 19 57 26 gmt distribution world organization university north carolina , chapel hill lines 189 supersedes constants cs unc edu nntp posting host mahler cs unc edu archive name space constants last modified date 93 04 01 14 39 04 constants equations calculations list originally compiled dale greer additions would appreciated numbers approximations serve blue purposes unix systems provide program , useful converting different systems \( metric english , etc \) numbers \( 8000 \) earth orbital velocity 300 km altitude \( 3000 \) earth orbital velocity km \( \) km \( 6400 \) mean radius earth km \( 6400 \) equatorial radius earth 1738 km \( 1700 \) mean radius moon 5 kg \( \) mass earth 7 kg \( \) mass moon 1 kg \( \) mass sun 3 3 2 \( \) gravitational constant times mass earth 4 3 2 \( \) gravitational constant times mass moon 1 3 2 \( \) gravitational constant times mass sun km \( \) mean earth moon distance 1 \( \) mean earth sun distance \( astronomical unit \) 1 \( mt \) tnt 4 j energy equivalent 05 kg \( 50 gm \) matter ref j r williams , energy level things , air force special weapons center \( \) , air force base , new mexico , 1963 also see effects nuclear weapons , compiled p j , published us department defense \( obtain gpo \) equations distance , v velocity , acceleration , time additional specialized equations available ames arc nasa gov pub space faq constant acceleration d0 vt 5at 2 v v0 v 2 acceleration cylinder \( space colony , etc \) radius r rotation period 4 pi 2 r 2 circular keplerian orbits vc velocity circular orbit escape velocity total mass orbiting orbited bodies g gravitational constant \( defined \) u g \( measured much accurately g \) k g 2 r radius orbit \( measured center mass system \) v orbital velocity p orbital period axis orbit vc sqrt \( g r \) sqrt \( 2 g r \) sqrt \( 2 \) vc v 2 u p 2 pi \( sqrt \( u 3 \) \) k 1 2 v 2 g r \( conservation energy \) period eccentric orbit period circular orbit semi major axis change velocity required plane change angle phi circular orbit delta v 2 sqrt \( gm r \) sin \( phi 2 \) energy put mass circular orbit \( ignores rotational velocity , reduces energy bit \) \( 1 1 \) radius earth radius circular orbit classical rocket equation , dv change velocity isp specific impulse engine exhaust velocity x reaction mass m1 rocket mass excluding reaction mass g 9 2 isp g dv ln \( \( m1 x \) m1 \) ln \( \( final mass \) \( initial mass \) \) relativistic rocket equation \( constant acceleration \) \( \) c \( c \) c 2 \( \( c \) 1 \) v c \( c \) relativistic rocket exhaust velocity mass ratio mr c c ln \( mr \) , \( \) c \( c ln \( mr \) \) c 2 \( \( c ln \( mr \) \) 1 \) v c \( c ln \( mr \) \) converting parallax distance \( \) 1 p \( arc seconds \) \( astronomical units \) p miscellaneous f force mass times acceleration w fd work \( energy \) force times distance atmospheric density varies exp \( kt \) z altitude , molecular weight kg air , g local acceleration gravity , temperature , k 's constant earth 100 km , d0 exp \( z 1 4 \) density , d0 density , approximately true , \( ft \) d0 18 9 km \( 30000 ft \) d0 27 6 km \( ft \) d0 43 3 km \( 10000 ft \) d0 65 atmospheric scale height dry lapse rate \( km emission level \) \( k km \) earth 7 5 9 8 mars 11 4 4 venus 4 9 10 5 titan 18 1 3 jupiter 19 2 0 saturn 37 0 7 uranus 24 0 7 neptune 21 0 8 triton 8 1 bode law approximating planetary distances r \( n \) 0 4 0 3 2 n astronomical units \( n infinity mercury , 0 venus , 1 earth , etc \) fits fairly well except neptune constants 6 34 j \( 7e 34 \) planck 's constant h 1 34 j \( 1e 34 \) planck 's constant \( 2 pi \) , h bar 1 23 j k \( 1 4e 23 \) 's constant k 5 8 w 2 k \( 6e 8 \) stephan constant sigma 6 11 n 2 kg 2 \( 7e 11 \) newton 's gravitational constant g 0 k \( 3e 3 \) wien 's constant sigma \( w \) 3 w \( \) luminosity sun 1370 w 2 \( 1400 \) solar constant \( intensity 1 au \) 6 \( \) radius sun 1738 km \( \) radius moon \( \) speed light vacuum c 9 \( \) light year 806 au \( \) 3 light years \( 3 \) parsec 3 \( \) black hole radius \( also called radius \) c 2 , g newton 's constant , mass bh , c speed light things add \( somebody look ! \) basic rocketry numbers equations stuff energy put pound orbit accelerate interstellar velocities non circular cases \? next faq 7 15 astronomical mnemonics
leech cs unc edu \( jon leech \) subject space faq 12 15 controversial questions keywords frequently asked questions article cs controversy expires 6 may 1993 20 00 26 gmt distribution world organization university north carolina , chapel hill lines 252 supersedes controversy cs unc edu nntp posting host mahler cs unc edu archive name space controversy last modified date 93 04 01 14 39 06 controversial questions issues periodically come much argument facts offered summaries attempt represent position much net community settled please bring unless 's something truly new discussed net ca n't set public policy , 's representatives happened saturn v plans despite widespread belief contrary , saturn v lost kept marshall space flight center problem creating saturn v finding drawings , finding vendors supply mid 1960 's vintage hardware \( like guidance system components \) , fact launch pads converted space shuttle use , place launch time redesign accommodate available hardware modify launch pads , may well started scratch clean sheet design data space missions immediately available investigators associated nasa missions allowed exclusive access one year data obtained order give opportunity analyze data publish results without people mission however , nasa frequently releases examples \( non digital form , e g photos \) public early mission risks nuclear \( rtg \) power sources space probes extensive discussion topic sparked attempts block galileo ulysses launches grounds plutonium thermal sources dangerous numerous studies claim even worst case scenarios \( shuttle explosion launch , accidental reentry interplanetary velocities \) , risks extremely small two interesting data points \( 1 \) may 1968 loss two snap , landed intact pacific ocean nimbus b weather satellite failed reach orbit fuel recovered 5 months release plutonium \( 2 \) april 1970 , apollo 13 lunar module atmosphere snap 27 rtg heat source , jettisoned , fell intact 20 , 000 feet deep tonga trench pacific ocean corrosion resistant materials rtg expected prevent release fuel period time equal 10 half lives pu 238 fuel 870 years doe 1980 make informed judgement , references may wish pursue good review technical facts issues given daniel radiation risk planetary exploration rtg controversy , planetary report , may june 1987 , pages 3 7 another good article , also reviews events preceding galileo 's launch , pad 39 b , robert g nichols , appeared november 1989 issue ad astra \( magazines published pro space organizations , planetary society national space society respectively \) gordon l , jr , advanced space nuclear systems \( aas 82 261 \) , developing space frontier , edited albert grover alexander , , 1983 , p 193 213 hazards plutonium toxicity , bernard l cohen , health physics , vol 32 \( may \) 1977 , page 359 379 nus corporation , safety status report ulysses mission risk analysis \( book 1 \) document number nus gpo published jan 31 , 1990 nasa office space science applications , final environmental impact statement ulysses mission \( tier 2 \) , \( serial number gpo number , probably available ntis nasa \) june 1990 doe 1980 u department energy , elements environment , wayne c hanson , editor doe document doe tic government printing office , washington , c , april 1980 \) impact space shuttle ozone layer time time , claims made chemicals released space shuttle 's solid rocket boosters \( srbs \) responsible significant amount damage ozone layer studies indicate reality minute impact , absolute terms relative chemical sources remainder item response author quoted study , charles atmospheric modelling study space shuttle effects stratosphere involved three independent theoretical groups , organized dr michael , nasa goddard institute space studies three groups involved michael maria garcia \( nasa \) , charlie anne douglass \( nasa goddard space flight center \) , malcolm ko \( atmospheric environmental research , inc \) effort look effects space shuttle titan rockets stratosphere following estimated sources stratospheric chlorine industrial sources 300 , 000 , 000 kilograms year natural sources 75 , 000 , 000 kilograms year shuttle sources 725 , 000 kilograms year shuttle source assumes 9 space shuttles 6 titan rockets launched yearly thus launches would add less 0 25 total stratospheric chlorine sources effect ozone minimal global yearly average total ozone would decreased 0 much less total ozone associated volcanic activity solar flares influence human made chlorine products ozone computed atmospheric model calculations 1 decrease globally averaged ozone 1980 1990 influence space shuttle titan rockets stratosphere negligible launch schedule space shuttle titan rockets would need increased factor hundred order effect ozone increases industrial present time theoretical results study published space shuttle 's impact stratosphere , mj , mm garcia , ar douglass , ch , k w ko n , journal geophysical research , 95 , , 1990 charles , atmospheric chemistry dynamics branch , code 916 , nasa goddard space flight center , greenbelt , md 20771 also see chemical rockets environment , mcdonald , r bennett , j , barnes , aerospace america , may 1991 long human live unprotected space n't try hold breath , exposure space half minute unlikely produce permanent injury holding breath likely damage lungs , something divers watch , 'll trouble tubes badly plugged , theory predicts animal experiments confirm otherwise , exposure vacuum causes immediate injury explode blood boil freeze instantly lose consciousness various minor problems \( sunburn , possibly bends , certainly mild , reversible , painless swelling skin underlying tissue \) start ten seconds point lose consciousness lack oxygen injuries accumulate perhaps one two minutes , 're dying limits really known references effect rapid decompression near vacuum , alfred g ed , nasa cr 329 \( nov 1965 \) experimental animal decompression near vacuum environment , r w , j e dunn , eds , report sam tr 65 48 \( june 1965 \) , usaf school aerospace medicine , brooks afb , texas challenger astronauts died challenger shuttle launch destroyed explosion well documented fact see rogers commission report , example looked like explosion fuel burning external tank came apart forces crew cabin sufficient kill astronauts , never mind destroy bodies , according team 's medical forensic report astronauts killed less intact cabin hit water circa , bodies spent several weeks underwater remains recovered , team examined , sent buried using shuttle beyond low earth orbit ca n't use shuttle orbiter missions beyond low earth orbit ca n't get big heavy carry enough fuel , even fill part cargo bay tanks furthermore , particularly sensible , much weight things like wings , totally useless except immediate vicinity earth shuttle orbiter highly specialized travel earth 's surface low orbit taking higher enormously costly wasteful much better approach would use shuttle subsystems build specialized high orbit spacecraft yet another concise answer henry spencer face mars really big rock mars looks remarkably like face appears two different frames viking orbiter imagery \( much appearance , one often published , sun 10 degrees western horizon \) \( sun 27 degrees west \) science writer richard idea face artificial , intended resemble human , erected extraterrestrial civilization analysts concede resemblance likely accidental viking images show smiley faced crater lava flow resembling kermit frog elsewhere mars exists mars research society \( sorry , n't know address \) study face mars observer mission carry extremely high resolution camera , better images formation hopefully settle question years meantime , speculation face best carried altnet group alt alien visitors , sci space sci astro v g , unusual martian surface features , mars research , p box 284 , glen dale , maryland , usa , 1982 18 mail r r , face mars , chicago review press , 1986 account interdisciplinary speculative conference organized investigate face r c , monuments mars city edge forever , north atlantic books , berkeley , california , usa , 1987 elaborate discussion evidence speculation near face form city j , digital imagery analysis unusual martian surface features , applied optics , 27 , pp 1926 1933 , 1987 extracts three dimensional model face 2 images j c stein , method searching artificial objects planetary surfaces , journal british interplanetary society , vol 43 5 \( may 1990 \) , p 209 216 uses fractal image analysis model guess whether face artificial b o'leary , analysis images mars possible intelligent origin , jbis , vol 43 5 \( may 1990 \) , p 203 208 lights 's model two angles shows 's consistent shows face n't look observed surface next faq 13 15 space activist interest research groups space publications
leech cs unc edu \( jon leech \) subject space faq 13 15 interest groups publications keywords frequently asked questions article cs groups expires 6 may 1993 20 01 32 gmt distribution world organization university north carolina , chapel hill lines 354 supersedes groups cs unc edu nntp posting host mahler cs unc edu archive name space groups last modified date 93 04 01 14 39 08 space activist interest research groups space publications groups aerospace industry association professional group , primary membership major aerospace firms headquartered dc area acts voice aerospace industry 's opinions usually backed reams analyses reputations firms address needed aiaa american institute aeronautics astronautics professional association , somewhere 30 , 000 40 , 000 members 65 local chapters around country largest chapters dc area \( 3000 members \) , la \( 2100 members \) , san francisco \( 2000 members \) , seattle nw \( 1500 \) , houston \( 1200 \) orange county \( 1200 \) , plus student chapters union , acts represent aviation space professionals \( engineers , managers , financial types \) nationwide holds 30 conferences year space aviation topics publishes technical journals \( aerospace journal , journal spacecraft rockets , etc \) , technical reference books source current aerospace state art published papers proceedings also offers continuing education classes aerospace design 60 technical committees , 30 committees industry standards aiaa acts professional society offers centralized resume jobs function , provides classes job search , offers low cost health life insurance , appropriate legislation \( aiaa one major organizations pushing iras individual retirement accounts \) active public policy arm works directly media , congress government agencies legislative liaison clearinghouse inquiries aerospace technology technical issues reasonably non partisan , represent industry whole , single company , organization , viewpoint membership 70 yr \( student less \) american institute aeronautics astronautics aerospace center 370 , sw washington , dc \( 202 \) 646 7400 amsat develops small satellites \( since 1960s \) variety uses amateur radio enthusiasts various publications , supplies satellite tracking software pc mac amiga etc amateur satellite corporation \( amsat \) p box 27 washington , dc \( 301 \) 589 australian space engineering research association australian non profit organisation coordinate , promote , conduct space r projects australia , involving australian international \( primarily university \) collaborators activities include development sounding rockets , small satellites \( especially \) , high altitude research balloons , appropriate payloads provides student projects levels , open person organisation interested participating publishes monthly newsletter quarterly technical journal membership \( dual subscription \) subscriptions \( newsletter \) \( journal \) ltd po box 184 ryde , nsw , australia , 2112 email syd dit csiro au bis british interplanetary society probably oldest pro space group , bis publishes two excellent journals spaceflight , covering current space activities , journal bis , containing technical papers space activities near term space probes interstellar missions bis published design study interstellar probe called daedalus british interplanetary society 27 29 south road london england dues information available present isu international space university isu non profit international graduate level educational institution dedicated promoting peaceful exploration development space multi cultural multi disciplinary space education research information isu 's summer session program permanent campus activities please send messages isu isunet contact isu executive offices international space university 955 massachusetts avenue 7th floor cambridge , 02139 \( 617 \) 354 1987 \( phone \) \( 617 \) 354 \( fax \) l 5 society \( defunct \) founded keith carolyn henson 1975 advocate space colonization major success preventing us participation un moon treaty late 1970s merged national space institute 1987 , forming national space society nsc national space club open general membership , well known primarily comprised professionals aerospace industry acts information conduit social gathering group active dc , chapter la monthly meetings invited speakers heavy hitters field annual outlook space conference definitive source data government annual planning space programs cheap membership \( approx 20 yr \) address needed nss national space society nss pro space group distinguished network local chapters supports general agenda space development man space , including nasa space station publishes ad astra , monthly glossy magazine , runs shuttle launch tours space hotline telephone services major sponsor annual space development conference associated spacecause spacepac , political lobbying organizations membership 18 \( youth senior \) 35 \( regular \) national space society membership department 922 pennsylvania avenue , e washington , dc 20003 \( 202 \) 543 1900 planetary society founded carl sagan largest space advocacy group publishes planetary report , monthly glossy , supported seti hardware development financially agenda primarily support space science , recently amended include international manned mission mars planetary society 65 north avenue pasadena , ca membership 35 year ssi space studies institute , founded dr gerard o'neill physicist freeman took presidency ssi o'neill 's death 1992 publishes ssi update , bimonthly newsletter describing work progress conducts research program including mass drivers , lunar mining processes , composites lunar materials , solar power satellites runs princeton conference space manufacturing membership 25 year senior associates \( 100 year \) fund ssi research space studies institute 258 road po box 82 princeton , nj seds students exploration development space founded 1980 mit princeton seds chapter based pro space organization high schools universities around world entirely student run chapter independent coordinates local activities nationally , seds runs scholarship competition , design contests , holds annual international conference meeting late summer students exploration development space mit room w20 445 77 massachusetts avenue cambridge , 02139 \( 617 \) 253 email odyssey athena mit edu dues determined local chapter spacecause political lobbying organization part nss family organizations publishes bi monthly newsletter , spacecause news annual dues 25 members also receive discount space activist 's handbook activities support pro space legislation include meeting political leaders legislative staff spacecause primarily operates legislative process national office west coast office spacecause spacecause 922 pennsylvania ave se ocean park blvd washington , c 20003 suite 201 \( 202 \) 543 1900 santa monica , ca 90405 spacepac political action committee part nss family organizations spacepac issues , policies , candidates year , updates space activist 's handbook current handbook price 25 spacepac membership , regional contacts coordinate local activity spacepac primarily operates election process , contributing money volunteers pro space candidates spacepac 922 pennsylvania ave se washington , dc 20003 \( 202 \) 543 1900 united states space foundation public , non profit organization supported member donations dedicated promoting international education , understanding support space group hosts annual conference teachers others interested education projects include developing lesson plans use space teach basic skills reading publishes spacewatch , monthly b w glossy magazine events general space news annual dues charter 50 \( 100 first year \) individual 35 teacher 29 college student 20 hs jr high 10 elementary 5 founder 1000 life member united states space foundation po box colorado springs , co \( 719 \) 550 1000 world space foundation designing building solar sail spacecraft longer similar group many jpl employees lend talents project also provides partial funding palomar sky survey , extremely successful search near earth asteroids publishes foundation news foundation astronautics notebook , quarterly 4 8 page newsletter contributing associate , minimum 15 year \( money always welcome support projects \) world space foundation post office box south pasadena , california publications aerospace daily \( mcgraw hill \) good coverage aerospace space issues approx 1400 yr air space smithsonian \( bimonthly magazine \) box boulder , co 3261 18 year us , 24 year international esa european space agency publishes variety periodicals , generally available free charge document describing detail ames space archive pub space faq final frontier \( mass market bimonthly magazine \) history , book reviews , general interest articles \( e g 7 wonders solar system , everything always wanted know military space programs , etc \) final frontier publishing co po box 534 mt morris , il 14 95 year us , 19 95 canada , 23 95 elsewhere space news \( weekly magazine \) covers us civil military space programs said good political business spotty technical coverage space news springfield va 0500 \( 703 \) 642 75 year , may discounts nss ssi members journal astronautical sciences space times publications american astronautical society details aas business office rolling mill place , suite 102 springfield , va \( 703 \) 866 gps world \( semi monthly \) reports current new uses gps , news analysis system policies affecting , technical product issues shaping gps applications gps world 859 willamette st p box eugene , \( 503 \) 343 1200 free qualified individuals write free sample copy innovation \( space technology \) free published nasa office advanced concepts technology revised version nasa office commercial programs newsletter planetary encounter depth technical coverage planetary missions , diagrams , lists experiments , interviews people directly involved world spaceflight news depth technical coverage near earth spaceflight mostly covers shuttle payload manifests , activity schedules , post mission assessment reports every mission box 98 sewell , nj 30 year us canada 45 year elsewhere space \( bi monthly magazine \) british aerospace trade journal good 75 year space calendar \( weekly newsletter \) space daily space fax daily \( newsletter \) short \( 1 paragraph \) news notes available online fee \( unknown \) space technology investor commercial space news irregular internet column aspects commercial space business free also limited fax paper edition p box seal beach , ca following published phillips business information , inc road , mc aerospace financial news 595 year defense daily good coverage space defense issues 1395 year space business news \( bi weekly \) good overview space business activities 497 year space exploration technology \( bi weekly \) 495 year space station news \( bi weekly \) 497 year undocumented groups anyone would care write descriptions following groups \( others mentioned \) inclusion answer encouraged aas american astronautical society groups mentioned next faq 14 15 become astronaut
leech cs unc edu \( jon leech \) subject space faq 14 15 become astronaut keywords frequently asked questions article cs astronaut expires 6 may 1993 20 01 55 gmt distribution world organization university north carolina , chapel hill lines 313 supersedes astronaut cs unc edu nntp posting host mahler cs unc edu archive name space astronaut last modified date 93 04 01 14 39 02 become astronaut first short form , authored henry spencer , official nasa announcement q become astronaut \? assume mean nasa astronaut , since 's probably impossible non russian get corps \( paying passengers professional \) , nations astronauts \( fly even fewer \) 're better hoping win lottery becoming shuttle pilot requires lots fast jet experience , means military flying career forget unless want anyway want become shuttle mission specialist n't us citizen , become one must , crucial thing remember demand jobs vastly exceeds supply nasa 's problem finding qualified people , lineup length enough qualified must avoid dis qualified reason , many principle quite irrelevant job get ph specialize something involves getting hands dirty equipment , paper pencil forget computer programming entirely done ground fore future degree \( \) one field plus work experience another seems frequent winner good physical condition , good \( get radial similar hack improve vision nobody knows sudden pressure changes would eyes , long term effects poorly understood matter , avoid significant medical unknowns \) pass jet pilot physical , okay ca n't , chances poor practise public speaking , conservative appearance actions 've got tough selling job ahead , trying convince cautious , conservative selection committee better hundreds applicants \( , also , credit nasa hired public relations significant part job , nasa 's image proper \) image want squeaky clean yuppie remember also need security clearance point , security considers everybody guilty proven innocent keep nose clean get pilot 's license make flying number one hobby experienced pilots known favored even non pilot jobs work nasa 45 astronauts selected 1984 1988 , 43 military nasa employees , remaining two nasa consultant mae jemison \( first black female astronaut \) apply outside nasa miss , offer job nasa , take sometimes past meant look interesting want know bit better first think space want highly motivated people , lose chance demonstrate motivation keep trying many astronauts n't make first time nasa national aeronautics space administration lyndon b johnson space center houston , texas announcement mission specialist pilot astronaut candidates astronaut candidate program national aeronautics space administration \( nasa \) need pilot astronaut candidates mission specialist astronaut candidates support space shuttle program nasa accepting continuous basis plans select astronaut candidates needed persons civilian sector military services considered positions located lyndon b johnson space center houston , texas , involved 1 year training evaluation program space shuttle program description numerous successful flights space shuttle demonstrated operation experimental investigations space becoming routine space shuttle orbiter launched , maneuvers earth orbit performing missions 30 days returns earth ready another flight payloads flight crew orbiter performs variety orbital missions including deployment retrieval satellites , service existing satellites , operation specialized laboratories \( astronomy , earth sciences , materials processing , manufacturing \) , operations missions eventually include development servicing permanent space station orbiter also provides capability using higher orbits achieved orbiter users space shuttle 's capabilities domestic foreign include government agencies private industries crew normally consists five people commander , pilot , three mission specialists occasion additional crew members assigned commander , pilot , mission specialists nasa astronauts pilot astronaut pilot astronauts server space shuttle commanders pilots flight commander onboard responsibility vehicle , crew , mission success safety flight pilot assists commander controlling operating vehicle addition , pilot may assist deployment retrieval satellites utilizing remote manipulator system , extra vehicular activities , payload operations mission specialist astronaut mission specialist astronauts , working commander pilot , overall responsibility coordination shuttle operations areas crew activity planning , consumables usage , experiment payload operations mission specialists required detailed knowledge shuttle systems , well detailed knowledge operational characteristics , mission requirements objectives , supporting systems equipment experiments conducted assigned missions mission specialists perform extra vehicular activities , payload handling using remote manipulator system , perform assist specific experimental operations astronaut candidate program basic qualification requirements applicants must meet following minimum requirements prior submitting application mission specialist astronaut candidate 1 bachelor 's degree accredited institution engineering , biological science , physical science mathematics degree must followed least three years related progressively responsible , professional experience advanced degree desirable may substituted part experience requirement \( master 's degree 1 year , doctoral degree 3 years \) quality academic preparation important 2 ability pass nasa class ii space physical , similar civilian military class ii flight physical includes following specific standards distant visual 20 150 better , correctable 20 20 , eye blood pressure 140 90 measured sitting position 3 height 58 5 76 inches pilot astronaut candidate 1 bachelor 's degree accredited institution engineering , biological science , physical science mathematics degree must followed least three years related progressively responsible , professional experience advanced degree desirable quality academic preparation important 2 least 1000 hours pilot command time jet aircraft flight test experience highly desirable 3 ability pass nasa class space physical similar military civilian class flight physical includes following specific standards distant visual 20 50 better correctable 20 20 , eye blood pressure 140 90 measured sitting position 4 height 64 76 inches citizenship requirements applications astronaut candidate program must citizens united states note academic requirements applicants astronaut candidate program must meet basic education requirements nasa engineering scientific positions specifically successful completion standard professional curriculum accredited college university leading least bachelor 's degree major study appropriate field engineering , biological science , physical science , mathematics following degree fields , related engineering sciences , considered qualifying degrees technology \( engineering technology , aviation technology , medical technology , etc \) degrees psychology \( except clinical psychology , physiological psychology , experimental psychology qualifying \) degrees nursing degrees social sciences \( geography , anthropology , archaeology , etc \) degrees aviation , aviation management similar fields application procedures civilian application package may obtained writing nasa johnson space center astronaut selection office attn houston , tx 77058 civilian applications accepted continuous basis nasa decides select additional astronaut candidates , consideration given applications hand date decision made applications received date retained considered next selection applicants notified annually opportunity update applications indicate continued interest considered program applicants update applications annually dropped consideration , applications retained preliminary screening applications , additional information may requested applicants , person listed application references may contacted active duty military active duty military personnel must submit applications respective military service directly nasa application procedures disseminated service selection personal interviews thorough medical evaluations required civilian military applicants final consideration final selections made , applicants considered notified outcome process selection rosters established process may used selection additional candidates one year period following establishment general program requirements selected applicants designated astronaut candidates assigned astronaut office johnson space center , houston , texas astronaut candidates undergo 1 year training evaluation period time assigned technical scientific responsibilities allowing contribute substantially ongoing programs also participate basic astronaut training program designed develop knowledge skills required formal mission training upon selection flight pilot astronaut candidates maintain nasa aircraft candidate period applicants aware selection astronaut candidate insure selection astronaut final selection astronaut depend satisfactory completion 1 year training evaluation period civilian candidates successfully complete training evaluation selected astronauts become permanent federal employees expected remain nasa period least five years civilian candidates selected astronauts may placed positions within nasa depending upon agency requirements manpower constraints time successful military candidates detailed nasa specified tour duty nasa affirmative action program goal qualified minorities women among qualified astronaut candidates therefore , qualified minorities women encouraged apply pay benefits civilians salaries civilian astronaut candidates based federal governments general schedule pay scales grades gs 11 gs 14 , set accordance individuals academic achievements experience benefits include vacation sick leave , retirement plan , participation group health life insurance plans military selected military personnel detailed johnson space center remain active duty status pay , benefits , leave , similar military matters next faq 15 15 orbital planetary launch services
subject diffs sci space sci astro frequently asked questions leech cs unc edu \( jon leech \) expires 6 may 1993 19 50 16 gmt organization university north carolina , chapel hill supersedes diffs cs unc edu nntp posting host mahler cs unc edu lines 294 archive name space diff diffs since last faq posting \( posting order \) \( hand edited context diffs attempt use patch old copies faq \) diff c r1 18 faq intro tmp , thu apr 1 14 47 22 1993 faq intro thu apr 1 14 46 55 1993 101 , 107 nasa langley \( technical reports \) nasa spacelink national space science data center space planetary image facility space telescope science institute electronic info service starcat astronomical databases 101 , 106 130 , 135 129 , 135 llnl great exploration lunar prospector lunar science activities orbiting earth satellite histories spacecraft models rocket propulsion spacecraft design diff c r1 18 faq net tmp , thu apr 1 14 47 24 1993 faq net thu apr 1 14 46 57 1993 58 , 63 58 , 67 elements sent list dr kelso , jsc , sources released email elements request telesoft com join gps digest moderated list discussion global positioning system satellite navigation positioning systems email gps request esseye si com join space investors list information relevant investing space related companies email vincent \( vac cs cmu edu \) join 223 , 227 227 , 241 1030 fact learn unauthorized access , contact nasa personnel claims made news group fraud waste none ever substantiated significant degree readers detecting fraud , waste , abuse , contact nasa inspector general \( 24 hours \) 800 424 9183 \( anonymous \) write nasa inspector general p box plaza station washington dc next faq 3 15 online \( offline \) sources images , data , etc diff c r1 18 faq data tmp , thu apr 1 14 47 26 1993 faq data thu apr 1 14 46 54 1993 216 , 237 telephone \( 301 \) 286 6695 email address request nssdca gsfc nasa gov space planetary image facility available 24 hours day via anonymous ftp pioneer unm edu approximately 150 cd rom 's full imagery , raw , data start , get file pioneer unm edu pub info beginner info hopefully give information need get data machine beginner info translated languages , look inside pub info particular language meets needs contact help pioneer unm edu space telescope science institute electronic information service 216 , 221 diff c r1 18 faq math tmp , thu apr 1 14 47 28 1993 faq math thu apr 1 14 46 56 1993 60 , 65 60 , 71 gives series compute positions accurate 1 arc minute period 300 years pluto included stated accuracy 15 arc minutes interactive computer almanac \( mica \) , produced us naval observatory valid years 1990 1999 55 \( 80 outside us \) available ibm \( order \) macintosh \( order \) ntis sales desk , \( 703 \) 487 believe intended replace 's interactive computer ephemeris interactive computer ephemeris \( us naval observatory \) distributed ibm pc floppy disks , 35 \( willmann bell \) covers dates diff c r1 18 faq references tmp , thu apr 1 14 47 30 1993 faq references thu apr 1 14 46 59 1993 93 , 100 us naval observatory 202 653 \( bulletin board via modem \) 202 653 general 202 653 1545 almanac office \( info interactive computer ephemeris \) willmann bell p box 93 , 98 138 , 151 sdi 's ssrt \( single stage rocket technology \) project funded suborbital technology demonstrator called dc x fly mid 1993 development towards operational single stage ! orbit vehicle uncertain present considerably detail ! ssrt program , get document ! ames arc nasa gov pub space faq ! anonymous ftp email server name star person official names decided committees international 136 , 151 sdi 's ssrt \( single stage rocket technology \) project funded suborbital technology demonstrator called dc x fly mid 1993 development towards operational single stage ! orbit vehicle \( called delta clipper \) uncertain present ! collection pictures files relating dc x available ! anonymous ftp email server directory ! bongo cc utexas edu pub delta clipper chris w johnson \( chrisj emx cc utexas edu \) maintains archive name star person official names decided committees international 223 , 228 223 , 236 university press , 1970 information lunar orbiter missions , including maps coverage lunar farside various orbiters orbiting earth satellite histories list earth orbiting satellites \( still orbit \) available anonymous ftp ames arc nasa gov pub space faq satellites spacecraft models diff c r1 18 faq addresses tmp , thu apr 1 14 47 34 1993 faq addresses thu apr 1 14 46 51 1993 75 , 80 75 , 85 latter , sf 171 useless employees caltech employees , contractors , part similar responsibilities offer alternative funding nasa centers fact sheet description jpl available anonymous ftp ames arc nasa gov pub space faq nasa johnson manned space center \( jsc \) houston , tx 77058 diff c r1 18 faq new probes tmp , thu apr 1 14 47 38 1993 faq new probes thu apr 1 14 46 58 1993 8 , 13 8 , 19 team , isas nasda launch schedules , press kits \( astro \) isas \( japan \) x ray astronomy satellite , launched earth orbit 2 20 93 equipped large area wide wavelength \( 1 20 \) x ray telescope , x ray ccd cameras , imaging gas proportional counters cassini saturn orbiter titan atmosphere probe cassini joint nasa esa project designed accomplish exploration saturnian system cassini saturn orbiter huygens titan probe cassini 98 , 115 magellan venus radar mapping mission mapped almost entire ! surface high resolution currently \( 11 92 \) mapping cycle 4 , ! collecting global gravity map mars observer mars orbiter including 1 5 pixel resolution camera ! launched 9 24 92 titan iii tos booster mo currently \( 3 93 \) transit mars , arriving 8 24 93 operations start 11 93 one martian year \( 687 days \) ! topex poseidon joint us french earth observing satellite , launched ! august 1992 ariane 4 booster primary objective topex poseidon project make precise accurate global observations sea level several years , substantially increasing understanding global ocean dynamics satellite also 104 , 121 magellan venus radar mapping mission mapped almost entire ! surface high resolution currently \( 4 93 \) collecting global gravity ! map mars observer mars orbiter including 1 5 pixel resolution camera ! launched 9 25 92 titan iii tos booster mo currently \( 4 93 \) transit mars , arriving 8 24 93 operations start 11 93 one martian year \( 687 days \) ! topex poseidon joint us french earth observing satellite , launched ! 8 10 92 ariane 4 booster primary objective topex poseidon project make precise accurate global observations sea level several years , substantially increasing understanding global ocean dynamics satellite also diff c r1 18 faq astronaut tmp , thu apr 1 14 47 43 1993 faq astronaut thu apr 1 14 46 52 1993 162 , 174 specific standards distant visual ! 20 100 better , correctable 20 20 , eye blood pressure 140 90 measured sitting position ! 3 height 60 76 inches pilot astronaut candidate 162 , 174 specific standards distant visual ! 20 150 better , correctable 20 20 , eye blood pressure 140 90 measured sitting position ! 3 height 58 5 76 inches pilot astronaut candidate
subject space faq 01 15 introduction leech cs unc edu \( jon leech \) expires 6 may 1993 19 53 44 gmt organization university north carolina , chapel hill keywords frequently asked questions supersedes intro cs unc edu nntp posting host mahler cs unc edu lines 310 archive name space intro last modified date 93 04 01 14 39 10 frequently asked questions sci space sci astro introduction series linked messages periodically posted usenet groups sci space sci astro attempt provide good answers frequently asked questions reference material worth preserving corrections answers frequently asked questions would like included posting , send email leech cs unc edu \( jon leech \) n't want see faq , add asked kill file group \( 're reading newsreader kill articles subject , 're luck \) faq volume excessive right hopefully trimmed rewriting condensing time faq postings available ames space archive faq faq good summaries accepted place answers given point circulate existing information , avoid old answers better build top start nothing depressing old topics time references provided give complete information short generalization questions fall three basic types 1 \) find information space \? try local public library first net good place ask general information ask individuals \( email \) must sources , use , net place open ended discussion 2 \) idea would improve space flight \? hope n't surprised , 9 , 999 10 , 000 usually thought , contact direct individual source evaluation nasa fields thousands day 3 \) queries addressed case case basis following series faq postings suggestions better read news announce newusers 're usenet minimize cross references , really need \? edit subject lines , especially 're taking tangent send mail instead , avoid posting follow ups \( 1 mail message worth 100 posts \) internet mail readers send requests add drop space request space read available articles posting follow \( check references \) cut attributed articles \( leave points 're responding remove signatures headers \) summarize ! put return address body \( signature \) message \( mail article \) , state institution , etc n't assume function mailers work use absolute dates post timely way n't post everyone get tv anyway editors window systems character count line wrapping keep lines 80 characters using ascii terminals \( use carriage returns \) index linked postings 've attempted break postings related areas n't keyword index yet following lists major subject areas posting containing astronomy related material posted sci astro \( indicated ' ' following posting number \) contents 1 introduction suggestions better index linked postings notes addresses , phone numbers , etc contributors 2 network resources overview mailing lists periodically updated information warning non public networks 3 online \( offline \) sources images , data , etc introduction viewing images online archives nasa ames nasa astrophysics data system nasa jet propulsion lab \( mission information images \) nasa langley \( technical reports \) nasa spacelink national space science data center space telescope science institute electronic info service starcat astronomical databases astronomy programs orbital element sets space digest landsat nasa photos planetary maps cometary orbits 4 performing calculations interpreting data formats computing spacecraft orbits trajectories computing planetary positions computing crater earth impacting asteroids map projections spherical performing n body simulations efficiently interpreting fits image format sky \( unix ephemeris program \) three dimensional star galaxy coordinates 5 references specific areas publishers space astronomy material careers space industry dc x single stage orbit \( ssto \) program name star person llnl great exploration lunar prospector lunar science activities orbiting earth satellite histories spacecraft models rocket propulsion spacecraft design esoteric propulsion schemes \( solar sails , lasers , fusion \) spy satellites space shuttle computer systems seti computation \( signal processing \) amateur weather satellites tides 6 constants equations calculations 7 astronomical mnemonics 8 contacting nasa , esa , space agencies companies nasa centers arianespace esa nasda space camp space commerce corporation spacehab spot image commercial space businesses 9 space shuttle answers , launch schedules , tv coverage shuttle landings schedules see shuttle roll liftoff \? receive nasa tv channel , nasa select amateur radio frequencies shuttle missions solid rocket booster fuel composition 10 planetary probes historical missions us planetary missions mariner \( venus , mars , mercury flybys orbiters \) pioneer \( moon , sun , venus , jupiter , saturn flybys orbiters \) ranger \( lunar lander impact missions \) lunar orbiter \( lunar surface photography \) surveyor \( lunar soft landers \) viking \( mars orbiters landers \) voyager \( outer planet flybys \) soviet planetary missions soviet lunar probes soviet venus probes soviet mars probes japanese planetary missions planetary mission references 11 upcoming planetary probes missions schedules cassini galileo magellan mars observer topex poseidon ulysses space science missions proposed missions 12 controversial questions happened saturn v plans data space missions n't immediately available risks nuclear \( rtg \) power sources space probes impact space shuttle ozone layer long human live unprotected space challenger astronauts died using shuttle beyond low earth orbit face mars 13 space activist interest research groups space publications groups publications undocumented groups 14 become astronaut 15 orbital planetary launch services notes addresses , phone numbers , etc unless otherwise specified , telephone numbers , addresses , united states america non us readers remember add country code telephone calls , etc credits eugene miya started series linked faq postings years ago inspired \( largely absorbed \) set peter yee ron baalke continue spend lot time setting space archives nasa ames forwarding official nasa announcements many people contributed material list form old postings sci space sci astro 've edited please let know corrections need made contributors 've managed keep track mcimail com \( francis reddy \) map projections yfn ysu edu \( steven fisk \) publication refs bill phy queensu ca \( richard \) crater athena mit edu \( lisa \) seds info emx utexas edu \( srinivas \) tides waterloo edu \( alan wm \) map projections aws iti org \( allen w sherzer \) great exploration baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov \( ron baalke \) planetary probe schedules vuw ac nz \( timothy banks \) map projections , variable star analysis archive bern uni de \( bern \) german mnemonic translation pioneer arc nasa gov \( bernie rosen \) space camp nssdca gsfc nasa gov \( barry \) fits format venera isi edu \( craig e ward \) space group contact info chapin cbnewsc att com \( tom chapin \) planetary positions tenet edu \( alan cunningham \) nasa spacelink kilroy jpl nasa gov \( cliff \) orbital elements convex com \( anthony \) pds vicar viewing software mentorg com \( dave rickel \) orbit formulae pc usl edu \( phil fraering \) propulsion eder hsvaic boeing com \( dani eder \) saturn v plans , srbs eugene eos arc nasa gov \( eugene n miya \) introduction , nasa contact info , started faq postings french isu isunet edu \( patrick french \) space group contact info g telesoft com \( gary morris \) amateur radio info cfa harvard edu \( terry \) n body calculations , orbital dynamics noao edu \( steve \) planetary positions greer dnet span nasa gov \( dale greer \) constants henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) survival vacuum , astronaut , challenger disaster , publication refs , dc x higgins fnal bitnet \( william higgins \) , publishers , shuttle landings , , propulsion , face mars tamu edu \( hal mueller \) map projections , orbital dynamics jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu \( josh hopkins \) launch services jim pnet01 cts com \( jim \) propulsion , launch services lpl arizona edu \( james n head \) atmospheric scale heights lpl arizona edu \( jim \) planetary positions zoo toronto edu \( carroll \) refs spacecraft design ken orion bitnet \( kenneth ng \) kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov \( ken jenks \) shuttle roll klaes verga enet dec com \( larry klaes \) planetary probe history leech cs unc edu \( jon leech \) crater ssi com \( lou \) orbital dynamics maury markowitz fidonet org \( maury markowitz \) propulsion max west darkside com \( erik max francis \) equations urbana gould com n body calculations phoenix princeton edu \( marc wayne \) space careers msb sq com \( mark brader \) mariner 1 info mwm cmu edu \( mark maimone \) space digest syma sussex ac uk \( dr nick watkins \) models , eso org \( r \) publishers , starcat aio jsc nasa gov \( graham \) lunar prospector panama cup portal com \( kenneth w durham \) cometary orbits , iau paul nss fidonet org \( paul \) propulsion pjs plato jpl nasa gov \( peter scott \) unomaha edu \( paul w \) amsat , arrl contact info mel oz au \( rodney brown \) propulsion refs phil cs virginia edu \( ran atkinson \) astro programs ihlpb att com \( r michael \) models jhuapl edu \( curt \) german mnemonic translation seal leonardo jpl nasa gov \( david seal \) cassini mission schedule shafer skipper dfrf nasa gov \( mary shafer \) photos , shuttle landings smith enet dec com \( willie smith \) photos stephen gp co nz \( stephen dixon \) shuttle audio frequencies jhuapl edu \( ray \) planetary positions sscl uwo ca \( phil \) planetary maps ted anderson transarc com \( ted anderson \) propulsion terry astro utexas edu \( terry hancock \) nasa center info thorson typhoon atmos colostate edu \( bill thorson \) fits info andrew cmu edu \( todd l \) space digest tom ssd csd harris com \( tom horsley \) refs algorithms veikko makela helsinki fi \( veikko makela \) orbital element sets wales larrison ofa123 fidonet org \( wales larrison \) groups publications wayne csri utoronto ca \( wayne hayes \) constants wistar upenn edu \( matthew p wiener \) voyager history yamada go jp \( yamada \) isas nasda missions yee ames arc nasa gov \( peter yee \) ames archive server , propulsion net memoriam ted next faq 2 15 network resources
subject space faq 02 15 network resources leech cs unc edu \( jon leech \) expires 6 may 1993 19 54 26 gmt organization university north carolina , chapel hill keywords frequently asked questions supersedes net cs unc edu nntp posting host mahler cs unc edu lines 241 archive name space net last modified date 93 04 01 14 39 15 network resources overview may reading document one amazing variety computers , much material may apply general , however , systems connected 'the fall one three categories internet , usenet , bitnet electronic mail may sent networks , resources available one networks sometimes accessible networks email sent special space astronomy discussion groups actually composed several mechanisms \( mostly \) transparent connections one mechanism mailing list , mail sent central distribution point relays recipients list addition general lists space \( called space digest internet users , space bitnet \) , number specialized mailing lists described second mechanism usenet somewhat like bulletin board operating system part net netnews separates contributions hundreds different categories based groups dealing closely space topics called 'sci space , 'sci , 'sci space , 'sci , politics contributors submissions \( called netnews terminology \) local machine , sends nearby machines similarly , articles sent nearby machines stored locally may forwarded systems , article posted locally eventually reaches usenet sites interested receiving news group article posted gateway machines redirect usenet sci space group internet bitnet mailing lists vice versa usenet groups accessible mailing lists receive netnews , flexible interface access wider range material usually make preferred option mailing lists space digest main internet list , run international space university \( second change management decade \) email space request isu isunet edu \( message body format space john \) join note moderated space magazine list defunct present lack moderator old copies space digest since inception 1981 available anonymous ftp retrieve julius cs qub ac uk pub readme details elements moderated list fast distribution space shuttle keplerian elements shuttle flights nasa two line elements sent list dr kelso , jsc , sources released email elements request telesoft com join gps digest moderated list discussion global positioning system satellite navigation positioning systems email gps request esseye si com join space investors list information relevant investing space related companies email vincent \( vac cs cmu edu \) join space tech list technical discussion space topics discussion included esoteric propulsion technologies , asteroid capture , , orbital debris removal , etc email space tech request cs cmu edu join archives old digests selected excerpts available anonymous ftp sp cs cmu edu \( 128 2 205 90 \) usr anon public space tech , email space tech request n't ftp access seds l bitnet list members students exploration development space interested parties email listserv tamvm1 bitnet message saying subscribe seds l name email saying index seds l list archive contents bitnet list news items , press releases , shuttle status reports , like duplicates material also found space digest , sci space , sci space shuttle , sci astro email listserv tamvm1 bitnet saying subscribe name join email saying index list archive contents ron baalke \( baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov \) runs mailing list carries contents sci space news usenet group email join list general note , please mail request address get mailing list space digest , example , relays many inappropriate remove messages sent list address rather request address periodically updated information addition faq list , broad variety topical information posted net \( unless otherwise noted , new group sci space news created purpose \) please remember individuals posting information performing service net readers , n't take time frivolous requests acronyms garrett \( uvm edu \) posts acronym list around first month astro ftp list veikko makela \( veikko makela helsinki fi \) posts monthly list anonymous ftp servers containing astronomy space related material sci space sci astro aviation week henry spencer \( henry zoo toronto edu \) posts summaries space related stories weekly aviation week space technology buying telescopes ronnie \( ronnie cisco com \) posts guide buying telescopes sci astro electronic journal asa barry \( chara gsu edu \) posts monthly electronic journal astronomical society atlantic sci astro flight international \( axion bt co uk \) posts summaries space related news flight international focuses non us space activities aviation week large astronomical projects robert bunge \( rbunge access digex com \) posts list describing many large telescope projects either considered works sci astro nasa headline news shuttle reports peter yee \( yee ames arc nasa gov \) posts variety nasa material , including nasa headline news \( schedule nasa select \) , shuttle payload briefings flight manifests , ksc shuttle status reports usenet users , much material appears group sci space shuttle nasa updates ron baalke \( baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov \) posts frequent updates jpl , ames , centers ulysses , , pioneer , magellan , landsat , missions orbital element sets ts kelso \( tkelso afit af mil \) posts orbital elements nasa prediction bulletins mike rose \( stsci edu \) posts orbital elements hubble space telescope sci astro \( j hanse de \) posts asteroids , comets , , encounters sci astro satellite launches richard langley \( lang unb ca \) posts bulletin , describes recent launch orbital decay information satellites useful scientific activities recent bulletins available anonymous ftp nssdca gsfc nasa gov anon dir active spx shuttle manifest ken hollis \( gandalf pro electric cts com \) posts compressed version space shuttle launch manifest sci space shuttle includes dates , times , payloads , information see launches landings solar activity cary \( hg uleth ca \) posts solar terrestrial reports \( describing solar activity effect earth \) sci space report issued part data released space enviroment services center , boulder colorado intro document needed understand reports available anonymous ftp solar stanford edu \( 36 10 0 4 \) pub understanding solar terrestrial reports nic funet fi \( 128 214 6 100 \) also document pub misc rec radio archive site reports \( please note site europe , connection us \) new primary archive site , xi uleth ca \( 142 66 3 29 \) , recently established actively supported soviet space activities glenn chapman \( cs sfu ca \) posts summaries soviet space activities space activist newsletter allen sherzer \( aws iti org \) posts newsletter , one small step space activist , talk politics space describes current legislative activity affecting nasa commercial space activities space events calendar ron baalke \( baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov \) posts calendar including , conferences , launch dates , meteor showers , space related events space news john \( uucp \) posts \( covering , noaa weather satellites , ham information \) rec radio amateur misc sci space space report jonathan mcdowell \( mcdowell cfa harvard edu \) posts jonathan 's space report covering launches , landings , , status reports , satellite activities , etc toward 2001 bev freed \( freed nss fidonet org \) posts toward 2001 , weekly global news summary reprinted space calendar magazine warning non public networks \( included suggestion eugene miya , wrote item \) nasa internal system unclassified electronic mail bulletin boards system open public use specifically , nasa personnel procurement operations regarded sensitivity contractors must contracts fair open procurement act look kindly inside information contractors outsiders caught using type information expect severe unauthorized access attempts may subject fine imprisonment accordance title 18 , usc , section 1030 fact learn unauthorized access , contact nasa personnel claims made news group fraud waste none ever substantiated significant degree readers detecting fraud , waste , abuse , contact nasa inspector general \( 24 hours \) 800 424 9183 \( anonymous \) write nasa inspector general p box plaza station washington dc next faq 3 15 online \( offline \) sources images , data , etc
subject space faq 03 15 data sources leech cs unc edu \( jon leech \) expires 6 may 1993 19 55 35 gmt organization university north carolina , chapel hill keywords frequently asked questions supersedes data cs unc edu nntp posting host mahler cs unc edu lines 463 archive name space data last modified date 93 04 01 14 39 07 online sources images , data , etc introduction wide variety images , data , catalogs , information releases , material dealing space astronomy may found net sites offer direct dialup access remote login access , remainder support form file transfer many sites listed providing refers file transfer protocol internet sites connected internet cannot use ftp directly , automated ftp servers operates via email send mail containing word help ftpmail decwrl dec com bitftp pucc princeton edu , servers send instructions make requests sources broadest selection material nasa ames space archive national space science data center n't even ask images posted net data volume huge nobody wants spend time viewing images possible combinations image formats machines large , wo n't attempt cover common formats \( gif , etc \) read pds vicar \( many \) formats unix systems running x , use xv 2 11 , available anonymous ftp export lcs mit edu \( 18 24 0 12 \) contrib xv 2 11 tar z standard x11 ftp sites faq usenet group alt binaries pictures discusses image formats get image viewing software copy document available anonymous ftp usenet faq archives pit manager mit edu \( 18 72 1 58 \) , directory pub usenet alt binaries pictures online archives nasa ames extensive archives maintained nasa ames available via anonymous ftp email server archives include many images wide variety documents including faq list , nasa press releases , shuttle launch , mission status reports please note maintained official basis ftp users connect ames arc nasa gov \( 128 102 18 3 \) look pub space pub space index contains listing files available archive \( index 200k \) access archives email , send letter archive server ames arc nasa gov \( ames ! archive server \) subject letter \( body \) , use commands like send space index send space shuttle 23 91 capitalization subdirectory names important caps text files handled email server present use one ftp email servers described introduction section images programs magellan venus voyager jupiter , saturn , uranus cd rom image disks put online cdrom directories disks rotated weekly basis thousands images available collections gif directory contains images gif format vicar directory contains magellan images vicar format \( also available gif directory \) pc program capable displaying files found imdisp directory \( see item viewing images \) nasa media guide describes various nasa centers contact public affairs officers may useful pursuing specific information 's misc media guide problems archive server reported peter yee \( yee ames arc nasa gov \) nasa astrophysics data system ads distributed data retrieval system easy use provides uniform access ground based space based astronomy data nasa data centers across country currently 140 data catalogs radio , infrared , optical , uv , x ray data position parameter catalog ads also provides tools manipulate plot results addition , ads beta version abstracts service allows users query 125 , 000 abstracts astronomy papers since 1975 authors , keywords , title words , abstract text words ads use requires direct internet access info sign become user , email ads edu user 's guide guide available anonymous ftp sao ftp harvard edu directory pub ads ads user guide \( postscript files \) contact carolyn stern grant \( stern cfa harvard edu \) nasa jet propulsion lab \( mission information images \) pubinfo jpl nasa gov \( 128 149 6 2 \) anonymous ftp site operated jpl public information office , containing news releases , status reports , fact sheets , images , data jpl missions may also reached modem \( 818 \) 354 1333 \( parity , 8 data bits , 1 stop bit \) contact jplpost jpl nasa gov phone \( 818 \) 354 nasa langley \( technical reports \) techreports larc nasa gov anonymous ftp site offering technical reports get started , cd directory pub techreports larc 92 retrieve files readme abstracts 92 files compressed postscript reports also wais database following description \( source version 3 ip name techreports larc nasa gov tcp port 210 database name nasa larc abs cost 0 00 cost unit free maintainer l nelson larc nasa gov description nasa langley research center technical reports contact tr admin techreports larc nasa gov nasa spacelink spacelink online service located marshall space flight center huntsville , alabama system specifically designed teachers data base arranged provide easy access current historical information nasa aeronautics , space research , technology transfer information also included suggested classroom activities incorporate information nasa projects teach number scientific principles unlike bulletin board systems , nasa spacelink provide interaction callers however allow teachers callers leave questions comments nasa may answered regular mail messages answered electronically , even acknowledge requests fulfilled mail messages generally handled next working day except missions turnaround times increase mail system closed loop user nasa spacelink also offers downloadable shareware public domain programs useful science educators well space graphics gif images nasa 's planetary probes hubble telescope dial \( 205 \) 895 0028 \( 300 1200 2400 9600 \( v 32 \) baud , 8 bits , parity , 1 stop bit \) , telnet spacelink msfc nasa gov \( 128 158 13 250 , also known msfc nasa gov \) 're internet anonymous ftp capability \( password guest \) available information also available ames server directory spacelink national space science data center \( nssdc \) national space science data center official clearinghouse nasa data data catalog \( data \) available online internet users telnet nssdca gsfc nasa gov \( 128 183 36 23 \) log 'nodis' \( password \) also get catalog sending email nssdc gsfc nasa also dial \( 301 \) 286 9000 \( 300 , 1200 , 2400 baud , 8 bits , parity , one stop \) enter number prompt , enter md carriage return system responds call complete , enter carriage returns get username log 'nodis' \( password \) system menu driven topics available 3 93 1 master directory nasa global change 2 personnel information management system 3 nimbus 7 grid data 4 interplanetary medium data \( omni \) 5 request data information nssdc 6 geophysical models 7 newsletter 8 international ultraviolet explorer data request 9 browse order utility 10 astronomical data center \( adc \) 11 step bulletin board service 12 standards technology information system 13 planetary science magellan project information 14 online data services nssdc 15 cd roms available nssdc users internet access , datasets made available via anonymous ftp select desired datasets online catalog users , data may ordered cd rom formats among many types data available voyager , magellan , planetary images , earth observation data , star catalogs viewers macintosh ibm systems also available example cost , 8 cd set voyager images 75 data may ordered online , email , physical mail postal address national space science data center request coordination office goddard space flight center code 633 greenbelt , md 20771 telephone \( 301 \) 286 6695 email address request nssdca gsfc nasa gov space telescope science institute electronic information service stsci edu \( 130 167 1 2 \) large amount information hubble space telescope available anonymous ftp , status reports newsletters , addition material oriented towards hst observers get top level readme file begin contact pete reppert \( reppert stsci edu \) chris \( stsci edu \) starcat space telescope european coordination facility , eso garching provides line access huge astronomical database , featuring observation log files several satellites telescopes \( , iras , hst , ntt \) spectra images \( , hst \) astronomical catalogues \( sao , hr , , ppm , iras , , many others , 50 \) convenient way \( give center radius kind objects , get corresponding files ! \) log \( password \) node stesis hq eso org \( 134 171 8 100 \) stesis \( decnet \) files created ftp contact benoit , eso org \( phone 49 89 320 06 433 \) st ecf astronomical databases full sao stellar database available online , probably due 40 mb size may ordered magnetic tape nssdc subset containing position magnitude available ftp \( see astronomy programs \) nic funet fi \( 128 214 6 100 \) large collection astronomical programs many types computers , databases stars deep sky objects , general astronomy information directory pub astro site mainly european users , overseas connections possible ames archives contain database 8 , 436 galaxies including name , ra , , magnitude , radial velocity misc galaxy dat supplied wayne hayes \( wayne csri utoronto ca \) dal ca \( 129 173 18 107 \) number gifs voyager , hubble , sources available anonymous ftp pub gif \( data also space gif ames server \) please restrict access 5pm atlantic time pomona claremont edu yale bright star catalog anonymous ftp directory yale bsc contact james \( claremont edu \) hubble guide star catalog available cd rom mac pc 49 95 us \( catalog \) astronomical society pacific 390 ashton ave san francisco , ca phone \( 415 \) 337 9 3 pm pacific time fax \( 415 \) 337 german \( possibly european \) readers , service distribute astronomical data interested amateurs cost 30 40 catalogs available dm 6 8 disk several floppy disk formats available expense receiving email system , asks contact physical mail neustaedter strasse 11 w 3123 germany phone frg astronomy programs various astronomy related programs databases posted net past archived anonymous ftp multiple sites , including ftp uu net \( 137 39 1 9 \) also see astro ftp list posted sci astro monthly , complete list space related sources interest comp sources unix volume 8 moon phase date routines volume 12 , 13 starchart starchart program yale star data volume 15 shows moon phase picture suns volume 16 sao reduced sao catalog space related sources interest comp sources misc volume 8 moon another moon phase program volume 11 starchart starchart program , version 3 2 volume 11 orbit orbit track earth satellites volume 12 starchart program , update version 3 2 1 volume 13 plotter jupiter 's major moons perl volume 13 \( sure \) volume 14 4 21 astronomical ephemeris , v4 21 volume 14 orbit patch orbit 3 7 volume 18 planet planet generation simulator elwood downey \( e downey cr rockwell com \) , author , offered mail copies people ca n't find one archives , x window system based satellite tracking program , available anonymous ftp export lcs mit edu \( 18 24 0 12 \) contrib 0 tar z contact dave curry \( davy ecn purdue edu \) information , computerized sky atlas x window system , available anonymous ftp arizona edu directory software unix contact terry r \( terry venus com \) information variable stars analysis software archive available via anonymous ftp kauri vuw ac nz \( 130 195 11 3 \) directory pub astrophys intended specialists field , would appreciate people outside new zealand ftp access astrophys directory , pay significant amount internet access contents relatively sparse present due youth archive contributions encouraged contact archive administrator , timothy banks \( kauri vuw ac nz \) information idl astronomy users library available anonymous ftp gsfc nasa gov \( 128 183 57 82 \) central repository general purpose astronomy procedures written idl , commercial image processing , plotting , programming language contact wayne \( stars gsfc nasa gov \) information orbital element sets recent orbital elements nasa prediction bulletins carried celestial bbs , \( 513 \) 427 0674 documentation tracking software also available system celestial bbs may accessed 24 hours day 300 , 1200 , 2400 baud using 8 data bits , 1 stop bit , parity orbital element sets available via anonymous ftp following sites archive afit af mil \( 129 92 1 66 \) nasa , , shuttle directory pub space ftp funet fi \( 128 214 6 100 \) nasa , , , , directory pub astro pc shuttle \( \) kilroy jpl nasa gov \( 128 149 1 165 \) nasa , directory pub space space digest archives copies back issues space digest archived listserv uga bitnet send mail containing message index space get index files send message get filename get particular file landsat nasa photos get black white 1 1m prints , negatives , positives 10 , 18 , 12 respectively landsat data 2 years old , \( eros \( earth resources orbiting satellite \) data center \) call \( 605 \) 594 get 80 meter resolution mss scanner , kilometers picture mm size think select one band \( green , red , near ir , second near ir \) , i'm sure data also available higher prices transparencies nasa photos available public borrowed nasa photo archive copies prints made nasa audio visual facility 918 north ave mountain view , ca 94043 \( 415 \) 604 planetary maps usgs address maps planets u geological survey , distribution branch , box , federal center , bldg 41 denver , co maps cost 2 40 3 10 per sheet \( come sets 2 3 sheets \) best global maps mars based viking images 1 15 , 000 , 000 scale 3 sheets maps \( 2 sheets \) relief , albedo , names 1618 \( 3 sheets \) relief , names \( 3 sheets \) relief , contours , b , c \( 3 sheets \) geology many maps well 30 sheets 1 5 , 000 , 000 scale relief , albedo , geology , forms \( 30 sheets available formats \) 140 sheets 1 2 , 000 , 000 scale whole planet , 100 sheets interesting sites 1 500 , 000 scale format , lots special sheets maps mercury , venus , moon , four galilean satellites , six moons saturn five uranus phil \( sscl uwo ca \) , author item , offered respond email requests information topic relating lunar planetary maps cometary orbit data central bureau astronomical telegrams minor planet center announce sixth edition catalogue cometary orbits iau circular catalogue contains entries represent known comets november 1989 96 pages long non subscribers may purchase catalogue 15 00 cost subscribers 7 50 basic catalogue ascii along program extract specific orbits calculate available ms dos 5 25 inch diskette cost 75 00 \( program requires math coprocessor \) catalogue alone also available e mail 37 50 magnetic tape 300 00 except printed version catalogue , various magnetic media e mail forms catalogue specifically non subscribers possible forms catalogue may available non subscribers prices may expensive given mail requests specific information orders central bureau astronomical telegrams smithsonian astrophysical observatory cambridge , 02138 , usa next faq 4 15 performing calculations interpreting data formats
subject space faq 05 15 references leech cs unc edu \( jon leech \) expires 6 may 1993 19 56 44 gmt organization university north carolina , chapel hill keywords frequently asked questions supersedes references cs unc edu nntp posting host mahler cs unc edu lines 665 archive name space references last modified date 93 04 01 14 39 21 references specific areas publishers space astronomy material astronomical society pacific 1290 24th avenue san francisco , ca expensive better organized slide sets cambridge university press 32 east 57th street new york , ny crawford peters p box san diego , ca \( 619 \) 287 excellent source kinds space publications publish number catalogs , including aviation space , 1945 1962 aviation space , 1962 1990 space related titles european southern observatory information photographic service dr r west karl strasse 2 garching bei frg slide sets , posters , photographs , conference proceedings finley holiday film corporation east philadelphia street whittier , california \( 213 \) 945 \( 800 \) films 07 wide selection apollo , shuttle , viking , voyager slides 50 cents slide call catalog hansen planetarium \( utah \) said hold sales old slide sets look sky telescope contact info lunar planetary institute nasa road one houston , tx 77058 technical , geology oriented slide sets , supporting john wiley sons 605 third avenue new york , ny sky publishing corporation po box 9111 belmont , 9111 offers sky catalogue 2000 0 pc floppy information \( including parallax \) stars roger geography dept university calgary , alberta canada t2n 1n4 \( 403 \) 220 \( 403 \) 282 \( fax \) bitnet offers 40 slide set called mapping planets recent work planetary , comes booklet information getting copies maps 50 canadian , shipping included documents us government printing office washington , dc , inc p box san diego , ca publishers american astronomical society us naval observatory 202 653 \( bulletin board via modem \) 202 653 general willmann bell p box richmond , virginia usa \( 804 \) 320 9 5 est f careers space industry 1990 princeton planetary society published first edition space jobs guide careers space related fields publication enormously successful distributed 2000 copies space enthusiasts across country even sent people great britain , australia , due tremendous response first edition , pps published expanded , date second edition guide 40 page publication boasts 69 listings summer full time job opportunities well graduate school programs second edition space jobs features strategies entering space field describes positions consulting engineering firms , nasa , non profit organizations expanded special section graduate schools highlights myriad programs ranging space manufacturing space policy additional sections include tips becoming astronaut listings nasa space grant fellowships , well nasa centers commercial development space order send check money order made payable princeton planetary society 4 per copy , plus 1 per copy shipping handling \( non us customers send international money order payable us dollars \) princeton planetary society 315 west college princeton university princeton , nj dc x single stage orbit \( ssto \) program sdi 's ssrt \( single stage rocket technology \) project funded suborbital technology demonstrator called dc x fly mid 1993 development towards operational single stage orbit vehicle \( called delta clipper \) uncertain present collection pictures files relating dc x available anonymous ftp email server directory bongo cc utexas edu pub delta clipper chris w johnson \( chrisj emx cc utexas edu \) maintains archive name star person official names decided committees international astronomical union , sale purely commercial organizations , fee , send pretty certificates star maps describing find star organizations absolutely standing astronomical community names assign used anyone else 's also likely wo n't able see star without binoculars telescope see back pages astronomy amateur astronomy publications contact info one organization may found international star registry wilson road , il endorsement isr llnl great exploration llnl great exploration , plan cheap space station , lunar base , mars mission using inflatable space structures , excited lot interest net still comes time time references cited net discussion week jan 22 , 1990 article overall great exploration nasa assessment llnl space exploration proposal llnl responses dr lowell wood llnl doc ss 90 9 address po box 808 livermore , ca 94550 \( nasa authors unknown \) briefing slides presentation nrc last december may available write llnl ask conceptual design study modular inflatable space structures , final report purchase order dover inc n't know get except llnl dover n't address lunar prospector lunar exploration inc \( lei \) non profit corporation working privately funded lunar polar orbiter lunar prospector designed perform survey search frozen poles set reference files describing project available ames arc nasa gov pub space lei lunar science activities grant h , david , bevan french \( editors \) , lunar , user 's guide moon , cambridge university press 1991 , isbn 0 521 6 hardcover expensive one volume encyclopedia essentially everything known moon , reviewing current knowledge considerable depth , copious references heavy emphasis geology , lot besides , including considerable discussion past lunar missions practical issues relevant future mission design reference book moon others obsolete wendell mendell \( ed \) , lunar bases space activities 21st century , 15 every serious student lunar bases must book bill higgins available lunar planetary institute nasa road one houston , tx 77058 want order books , call \( 713 \) 486 thomas mutch , geology moon view , princeton university press , 1970 information lunar orbiter missions , including maps coverage lunar farside various orbiters orbiting earth satellite histories list earth orbiting satellites \( still orbit \) available anonymous ftp ames arc nasa gov pub space faq satellites spacecraft models space miniature 2 gemini michael j lane , st louis , mo 7 50 enough pictures diagrams interest modelling community , feel marco 's , mass produced 1 144 skylab edition 500 1 48 lunar rover \( scale lunar modules \) similar edition prices 45 skylab , 24 check postage etc connection , found service good stock rare old kits impressive prices range reasonable \( 35 1 32 scale apollo csm details \) spectacular \( 145 vostok \) four star p box 658 mass , usa \( 508 \) 957 voyager , hst , viking , lunar rover etc kits lunar models , texas \( 214 \) 475 reviewed bob peter alway 's book scale model rocketry available mine arrived mail earlier week get copy , send 19 95 2 50 h \( 22 45 total \) peter alway ann arbor , mi book includes information collecting scale data , construction scale models , several handy tables include plans 3 sport scale models , 1 9 22 region tomahawk \( \) , 1 40 v 2 \( \) , 1 9 16 aerobee 150a \( 60 \) 've begun study book , certainly valuable data source many vehicles include several paragraphs text describing missions flown rocket , various specs including engine classification , along drawing , color layouts paint pattern , black white photograph vehicles included aerobee 150a , aerobee 300 , aerobee hi , , asp , 1500 , , atlas centaur , atlas , atlas score , baby wac , region tomahawk , , delta b , delta e , gemini titan ii , iris , javelin , juno 1 , juno 2 , little joe 1 , little joe 2 , mercury atlas , mercury , nike apache , nike asp , nike , nike , nike tomahawk , ram b , saturn 1 block 1 , saturn 1 block 2 , saturn 1b , saturn 5 , scout , standard aerobee , , thor able , titan iii c , titan iii e , 1 , v 2 , , viking model 1 , viking model 2 , wac rocket propulsion george p sutton , rocket propulsion elements , 5th edn , wiley 1986 , isbn 0 471 9 pricey textbook best \( nearly \) modern introduction technical side rocketry good place start want know details math shy straight chemical rockets , essentially nothing advanced propulsion \( although earlier editions reportedly coverage \) dieter k david h huang , design liquid propellant rocket engines , nasa sp 125 ntis pc mf a01 1971 print may obtained ntis \( expensive \) complete authoritative guide designing liquid fuel engines reference 1 chapters sutton heavy emphasis practical issues , works n't , typical values fudge factors stiff reading , massive detail written rocket engineers rocket engineers spacecraft design n , design geosynchronous spacecraft , prentice hall , isbn 0 13 4 james r ed , spacecraft attitude determination control , , isbn 90 277 1204 2 p r k , satellite technology applications , mcgraw hill , isbn 0 8306 1 james r wiley j larson \( editors \) , space mission analysis design , academic publishers \( boston london \) 1991 , isbn 0 5 \( paperback \) , 0 7 \( \) looks system level design spacecraft , rather detailed design 23 chapters , 4 appendices , 430 pages leads reader mission design system level design fictitious earth observation satellite , illustrate principles tries convey warning although book full many useful reference tables , numbers least one tables \( launch costs various launchers \) appear quite wrong ordered telephone , using credit card 's phone number \( 617 \) 871 6600 cost 34 50 esoteric propulsion schemes \( solar sails , lasers , fusion \) needs date references , 's start antimatter antiproton annihilation propulsion , robert forward tr 85 034 air force rocket propulsion laboratory \( , stop 24 , edwards air force base , ca 5000 \) ntis ad 734 0 pc a10 mf a01 pc paper copy , a10 90 maybe price code \? mf , a01 90 technical study making , holding , using antimatter near term \( 30 50 years \) propulsion systems excellent bibliography forward best known proponent antimatter also may available tr 85 55 contractor , university dayton research institute , ad defense technical information center , defense logistics agency , cameron station , alexandria , va 22304 's also available ntis , yet another number advanced space propulsion study , antiproton power propulsion , robert forward tr 87 air force astronautics laboratory , ad 218 ntis ad 218 1 pc a10 mf a01 summarizes previous paper , goes detail power systems including 1 \) pellet , microwave , laser power systems transport 2 \) design near relativistic laser pushed using near term laser technology 3 \) survey laser thermal propulsion , tether transportation systems , antiproton annihilation propulsion , exotic applications solar sails , laser pushed interstellar 4 \) status antiproton annihilation propulsion 1986 5 \) prospects obtaining antimatter ions heavier , extensive bibliography application antimatter electric power interstellar propulsion , g , jbis interstellar studies issue 6 90 ramjets related methods g l matloff j , interstellar applications limitations several electrostatic electromagnetic ion collection techniques , jbis 30 \( 1977 \) 213 222 n h langston , erosion interstellar drag screens , jbis 26 \( 1973 \) 481 484 c powell , flight dynamics ram augmented interstellar rocket , jbis 28 \( 1975 \) 553 562 r martin , effects drag relativistic , jbis 25 \( 1972 \) 643 652 fusion laser fusion rocket interplanetary propulsion , roderick , llnl report \( contact technical information dept livermore \) fusion pellet design fuel selection energy loss mechanisms pellet compression metrics thrust chamber magnetic shielding breeding thermal modeling fusion driver \( lasers , particle beams , etc \) heat rejection vehicle summary mass estimates vehicle performance interstellar travel required exhaust velocities limit fusion 's capability interplanetary missions limited power weight ratio trajectory modeling typical mission profiles references , including 1978 report jbis , project daedalus , several icf driver technology fusion electric propulsion , robert w , journal propulsion power , vol 6 , 5 , sept oct 1990 fusion rocket engines analyzed electric propulsion systems , propulsion thrust power input power ratio \( thrust power gain g \( \) \) much greater unity gain values conventional \( solar , fission \) electric propulsion systems always quite small \( e g , g \( \) 0 8 \) , high thrust interplanetary flight possible , system acceleration \( \( \) \) capabilities always less local gravitational acceleration contrast , gain values 50 100 times higher found fusion concepts , offer high thrust flight capability one performance example shows 53 3 day \( 34 4 powered 18 9 coast \) , one way transit time 19 payload single stage earth mars vehicle another shows potential high acceleration \( \( \) 0 \( \) \) flight earth moon space qed engine system direct electric fusion powered systems aerospace flight propulsion robert w , 1190 03 , available energy matter conversion corp , 9100 center street , , va introduction application 's version hirsch electrostatic confinement fusion technology propulsion 1500 isp 5000 sec hirsch demonstrated 10 10 neutron flux device back 1969 dropped panic ensued surprising stability soviet hirsch , responsible panic , recently back working qed jim star power energy intensive space applications , paul , eight ans topical meeting technology fusion energy , special issue fusion technology , march 1989 energy \( fusion little negligible neutron flux \) requires plasma pressures stable confinement times larger delivered current approaches plasma pressures appropriate burn times order milliseconds could achieved fuels , high power densities compact , clean burning engines space special applications would hand innovation make possible unique pressure efficient structure , exceptional stability , fluid mechanically mantle direct inductive mhd electric power conversion advantages described peak burn densities tens per cc give even multi electric output size engineering advantages indicate rapid development schedule modest cost strongly recommend people take guy seriously bob hirsch , primary proponent , recently declared 's precursor , , one 3 promising fusion technologies pursued rather aside preceeding appeal authority , looks like finally models ball lightning solid mhd physics jim ion drives retrieve files pub space spacelink 6 5 2 ames space archive deal many aspects ion drives describe ii missions , flight tested ion thrusters 1960s 70s numerous references mass drivers \( , \) ieee transactions magnetics \( example , v 27 1 , january 1991 issue \) every often publish proceedings symposium electromagnetic launcher technology , including hundreds papers subject 's good look state art , though perhaps good tutorial beginners anybody know good review papers \? nuclear rockets \( fission \) technical notes nuclear rockets , bruce w knight donald , unpublished may available donald , math dept , mcgill university , po box , station , montreal , quebec m3c canada solar sails solar sails interstellar travel louis friedman , wiley , new york , 1988 , 146 pp , paper 9 95 \( technical , adequate overview \) interstellar travel using laser pushed \( journal spacecraft rockets , vol 21 , pp 187 95 , jan feb 1984 \) asteroids artificial gravity assist solar system , p h l mayer , journal spacecraft rockets jan feb 1986 details spacecraft kevlar tether mass change velocity slightly less 1 km sec travelling velocity wrt suitable asteroid general alternate propulsion energy sources , robert forward tr 83 067 ntis ad 771 1 pc mf a01 dec 83 keywords propulsion energy , helium , free radical hydrogen , solar pumped \( sic \) , antiproton , lasers , solar sails , sails , microwave sails , quantum fluctuations , antimatter rockets 's wide , deep , look exotic energy sources might useful space propulsion also considers various kinds laser propulsion , metallic hydrogen , , unconventional nuclear propulsion bibliographic information , pointing research stuff , belongs every 's shelf future magic dr robert l forward , avon , 1988 isbn 0 380 4 nontechnical discussion , antimatter , gravity control , even topics spy satellites deep black , william burrows best modern general book 1 \) base debate us satellite station , des ball , allen australia , 1987 isbn 0 04 4 covers dsp early warning satellites 2 \) pine gap australia us geostationary signals intelligence satellite program , des ball , allen australia , 1988 isbn 0 04 5 covers rhyolite , , magnum signals intelligence satellites 3 \) guardians strategic reconnaissance satellites , curtis , 1987 , ian allan , isbn 0 good mol , military salyut soviet satellites , less others tends believe 's told flaws discussion dsp , rhyolite et al 4 \) america 's secret eyes space spy satellite program , jeffrey , 1990 , harper row , isbn 0 285 8 class , historical reference satellites 5 \) secret space , philip j , 1971 long print well worth look space shuttle computer systems j communications acm v 27 n 9 september 1984 k special issue space shuttle computers myron avionics manned spacecraft j ieee transactions aerospace electronic systems v 25 n 6 november 1989 p 786 827 various aiaa ieee publications computers spaceflight nasa experience james e 1988 \? seti computation \( signal processing \) k ivan r bernard oliver signal processing seti j communications acm v 28 n 11 november 1984 p 1163 k cr categories subject 4 1 operating systems process management 5 4 pattern recognition applications signal processing j 2 sciences engineering astronomy general terms design additional key words phrases digital fourier transforms , finite impulse response filters , interstellar communications , search extra terrestrial intelligence , signal detection , spectrum analysis amateur weather satellites fairly long writeup receiving interpreting weather satellite photos available ames space archive pub space faq american radio relay league publication service offers following references \( also see section amsat space groups segment faq \) arrl satellite experimenters handbook , , 20 arrl weather satellite handbook , , 20 ibm pc software weather satellite handbook , , 10 amsat na 5th space symposium , , 12 amsat na 6th space symposium , , 12 shipping extra american radio relay league publications department 225 main street newington , ct \( 203 \) 666 1541 tides srinivas contributed writeup tides , available ames space archive pub space faq tides covers following areas 2 example tidal treatment tidal fields practice long term evolution earth moon system tides writeup refers following texts geophysical k tides planet earth p next faq 6 15 constants equations calculations
leech cs unc edu \( jon leech \) subject space faq 09 15 mission schedules supersedes schedule cs unc edu organization university north carolina , chapel hill lines 177 distribution world expires 6 may 1993 19 59 07 gmt nntp posting host mahler cs unc edu keywords frequently asked questions archive name space schedule last modified date 93 04 01 14 39 23 space shuttle answers , launch schedules , tv coverage shuttle landings schedules see shuttle operations discussed usenet group sci space shuttle , ken hollis \( gandalf pro electric cts com \) posts compressed version shuttle manifest \( launch dates information \) periodically manifest also available ames space archive space faq manifest portion manifest formerly included faq removed please refer posting archived copy date information upcoming missions , call \( 407 \) 867 info \( 867 \) kennedy space center official nasa shuttle status reports posted sci space news frequently shuttle roll liftoff \? following answer translation provided ken jenks \( kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov \) guidance flight control training manual , asc g c , says vertical rise phase , launch pad attitude commanded loaded v \( rel \) sufficient assure launch tower clearance achieved , tilt maneuver \( roll program \) vehicle heads attitude required generate negative q alpha , turn alleviates structural loading advantages attitude performance gain , decreased abort maneuver complexity , improved band look angles , crew view horizon tilt maneuver also required start gaining velocity achieve main engine cutoff \( \) target second stage really good answer , 's nasa jargon 'll try interpret 1 \) wait shuttle clears tower rolling 2 \) , roll shuttle around angle attack wind caused passage atmosphere \( relative wind \) chord wings \( imaginary line leading edge trailing edge \) slightly negative angle \( negative q alpha \) causes little bit downward force \( toward belly orbiter , z direction \) force alleviates structural loading careful wings 're delicate part vehicle 3 \) new attitude \( roll \) also allows us carry mass orbit , achieve higher orbit mass , change orbit higher lower inclination would case n't roll \( performance gain \) 4 \) new attitude allows crew fly less complicated flight path execute one dangerous abort maneuvers , return launch site \( decreased abort maneuver complexity \) 5 \) new attitude improves ability ground based radio antennae good line sight signal band radio antennae orbiter \( improved band look angles \) 6 \) new attitude allows crew see horizon , helpful \( mandatory \) part flying machine 7 \) new attitude shuttle body nearly parallel ground , nose east \( usually \) allows thrust engines add velocity correct direction eventually achieve orbit remember velocity vector quantity made speed direction shuttle large horizontal component velocity small vertical component attain orbit begs question , n't launch pad oriented give nice attitude begin \? shuttle need roll achieve attitude \? answer pads apollo days shuttle two flame trenches one solid rocket motor exhaust , one space shuttle main engine exhaust \( see effects daytime launch srm exhaust dirty gray garbage , ssme exhaust fluffy white steam watch difference top orbiter side bottom external tank side stack \) access tower support service structure oriented basically way saturn v 's \( side note saturn v 's also roll program n't ask i'm shuttle guy \) checked buddy dynamics added roll maneuver really maneuver three axes roll , pitch roll component maneuver performed reasons stated pitch component controls loading wings keeping angle attack \( q alpha \) within tight tolerance component used determine orbital inclination total maneuver really expressed , grad level math concept combining three rotation matrices one four element array receive nasa tv channel , nasa select nasa select broadcast satellite access satellite dish , find select , transponder 13 , c band , 72 degrees west longitude , audio 6 8 , frequency mhz stationed atlantic , increasingly difficult receive california points west events special interest \( e g shuttle missions \) , select sometimes broadcast second satellite viewers ca n't get satellite feed , cable operators carry select 's worth asking n't select schedule found nasa headline news frequently posted sci space news generally carries press conferences , briefings nasa officials , live coverage shuttle missions planetary encounters select recently begun carrying much secondary material \( associated spacelink \) missions covered amateur radio frequencies shuttle missions following believed rebroadcast space shuttle mission audio los angeles ames research center , mountain view , california goddard space flight center \( gsfc \) , greenbelt , maryland johnson space center \( jsc \) , houston , texas jet propulsion laboratory \( jpl \) , pasadena , california voice bulletins station vhf 10m 15m 20m 40m 80m 145 46 145 585 7 165 3 840 147 45 28 650 21 395 14 295 7 185 3 860 146 64 28 400 21 350 14 280 7 227 3 850 224 04 21 340 14 270 224 04 21 280 14 282 7 165 3 840 28 590 21 390 14 290 7 290 3 990 transmits mission audio 146 64 , special event station frequencies supplying keplerian elements mission information also transmits 147 555 , 18 160 mission audio transmit voice bulletins utc frequencies 10 20m bands require frequencies 40 80m bands use fm vhf frequencies item recently updated courtesy gary morris \( g telesoft com , , \) solid rocket booster fuel composition reference shuttle flight operations manual volume 8b solid rocket booster systems , nasa document jsc propellant composition \( percent \) \( \) 69 6 aluminum 16 iron oxide \( burn rate catalyst \) 0 4 acid \( rubber \) 12 04 epoxy curing agent 1 96 end reference comment aluminum , rubber , epoxy burn next faq 10 15 historical planetary probes
leech cs unc edu \( jon leech \) subject space faq 10 15 planetary probe history supersedes probe cs unc edu organization university north carolina , chapel hill lines 527 distribution world expires 6 may 1993 19 59 36 gmt nntp posting host mahler cs unc edu keywords frequently asked questions archive name space probe last modified date 93 04 01 14 39 19 planetary probes historical missions section lightly adapted original posting larry klaes \( klaes verga enet dec com \) , mostly minor formatting changes matthew wiener \( wistar upenn edu \) contributed section voyager , section sakigake obtained isas material posted yamada \( yamada go jp \) us planetary missions mariner \( venus , mars , mercury flybys orbiters \) mariner 1 , first u attempt send spacecraft venus , failed minutes launch 1962 guidance instructions ground stopped reaching rocket due problem antenna , onboard computer took control however , turned bug guidance software , rocket promptly went course , range safety officer destroyed although bug sometimes claimed incorrect fortran statement , actually transcription error bar \( indicating smoothing \) omitted expression r dot bar sub n \( nth value derivative radius \) error led software treat normal minor variations velocity serious , leading incorrect compensation mariner 2 became first successful probe flyby venus december 1962 , returned information confirmed venus hot \( 800 degrees fahrenheit , revised 900 degrees f \) world cloud covered atmosphere composed primarily carbon dioxide \( sulfuric acid later confirmed 1978 \) mariner 3 , launched november 5 , 1964 , lost protective shroud failed eject craft placed interplanetary space unable collect sun 's energy power solar panels , probe soon died batteries ran solar orbit intended mars flyby mariner 4 mariner 4 , sister probe mariner 3 , reach mars 1965 took first close images martian surface \( 22 \) flew planet probe found cratered world atmosphere much thinner previously thought many scientists concluded preliminary scan mars dead world geological biological sense mariner 5 sent venus 1967 data planet collected five years earlier mariner 2 , plus information venus' atmospheric pressure surface least 90 times earth 's , equivalent 3 , 300 feet surface ocean mariner 6 7 sent mars 1969 expanded upon work done mariner 4 four years earlier however , failed take away concept mars dead planet , first made basic measurements mariner 4 mariner 8 ended atlantic ocean 1971 rocket launcher failed mariner 9 , sister probe mariner 8 , became first craft orbit mars 1971 returned information red planet probe done , revealing huge volcanoes martian surface , well giant canyon systems , evidence water flowed across planet probe also took first detailed closeup images mars' two small moons , phobos deimos mariner 10 used venus gravity assist mercury 1974 probe return first close images venusian atmosphere ultraviolet , revealing previously unseen details cloud cover , plus fact entire cloud system circles planet four earth days mariner 10 eventually made three flybys mercury 1974 1975 running attitude control gas probe revealed mercury heavily cratered world mass much greater thought would seem indicate mercury iron core makes 75 percent entire planet pioneer \( moon , sun , venus , jupiter , saturn flybys orbiters \) pioneer 1 3 failed meet main objective photograph moon close reach far enough space provide new information area earth moon , including new data van allen radiation belts circling earth three craft failures rocket launchers pioneer 1 launched october 11 , 1958 , pioneer 2 november 8 , pioneer 3 december 6 pioneer 4 moon probe missed moon became first u spacecraft orbit sun 1959 pioneer 5 originally designed flyby venus , mission scaled instead studied interplanetary environment venus earth 36 2 million kilometers 1960 , record mariner 2 pioneer 6 9 placed solar orbit 1965 1968 pioneer 6 , 7 , 8 still transmitting information time pioneer e \( would number 10 \) suffered launch failure 1969 pioneer 10 became first spacecraft flyby jupiter 1973 pioneer 11 followed 1974 , went become first probe study saturn 1979 vehicles continue function 1995 heading interstellar space , first craft ever pioneer venus 1 \( 1978 \) \( also known pioneer venus orbiter , pioneer 12 \) burned venusian atmosphere october 8 , 1992 pvo made first radar studies planet 's surface via probe pioneer venus 2 \( also known pioneer 13 \) sent four small probes atmosphere december 1978 main spacecraft bus burned high atmosphere , four probes descended parachute towards surface though none expected survive surface , day probe make transmitted 67 5 minutes ground batteries failed ranger \( lunar lander impact missions \) ranger 1 2 test probes ranger lunar impact series meant high earth orbit testing 1961 , rocket problems left useless low orbits quickly decayed ranger 3 , launched january 26 , 1962 , intended land instrument capsule surface moon , problems launch caused probe miss moon head solar orbit ranger 3 try take images moon flew , camera unfortunately aimed deep space attempt ranger 4 , launched april 23 , 1962 , purpose ranger 3 , suffered technical problems enroute crashed lunar farside , first u probe reach moon , albeit without returning data ranger 5 , launched october 18 , 1962 similar ranger 3 4 , lost solar panel battery power enroute eventually missed moon drifted solar orbit ranger 6 9 modified lunar missions send back live images lunar surface headed towards impact moon ranger 6 failed objective 1964 cameras operate ranger 7 9 performed well , becoming first u lunar probes return thousands lunar images 1965 lunar orbiter \( lunar surface photography \) lunar orbiter 1 5 designed orbit moon image various sites studied landing areas manned apollo missions 1969 1972 probes also contributed greatly understanding lunar surface features , particularly lunar farside five probes series , launched 1966 1967 , essentially successful missions first u probes orbit moon los eventually crashed lunar surface avoid interference manned apollo missions surveyor \( lunar soft landers \) surveyor series designed primarily see apollo lunar module could land surface moon without sinking soil \( time , feared moon covered great layers dust , would support heavy landing vehicle \) surveyor successful proving lunar surface strong enough hold spacecraft 1966 1968 surveyor 2 4 unsuccessful missions rest became first u probes soft land moon , taking thousands images soil analysis apollo 12 landed 600 feet surveyor 3 1969 returned parts craft earth surveyor 7 , last series , purely scientific mission explored crater region 1968 viking \( mars orbiters landers \) viking 1 launched cape canaveral , florida august 20 , 1975 titan 3e centaur d1 rocket probe went martian orbit june 19 , 1976 , lander set western slopes planitia july 20 , 1976 soon began programmed search martian micro organisms \( still debate whether probes found life \) , sent back incredible color surroundings one thing scientists learned mars' sky color , dark blue originally thought \( sky pink due sunlight reflecting dust particles thin atmosphere \) lander set among field red sand stretching far cameras could image viking 1 orbiter kept functioning august 7 , 1980 , ran attitude control propellant lander switched weather reporting mode , hoped would keep functioning 1994 november 13 , 1982 , errant command sent lander accidentally telling shut orders communication never regained , despite efforts may 1983 interesting side note viking 1 's lander designated thomas mutch memorial station honor late leader lander imaging team national air space museum washington , c entrusted mutch station plaque attached lander manned expedition viking 2 launched september 9 , 1975 , arrived martian orbit august 7 , 1976 lander touched september 3 , 1976 utopia planitia accomplished essentially tasks sister lander , exception worked , recording one orbiter series attitude control gas leaks 1978 , prompted shut july lander shut april 12 , 1980 orbits viking orbiters decay around voyager \( outer planet flybys \) voyager 1 launched september 5 , 1977 , flew past jupiter march 5 , 1979 saturn november 13 , 1980 voyager 2 launched august 20 , 1977 \( voyager 1 \) , flew jupiter august 7 , 1979 , saturn august 26 , 1981 , uranus january 24 , 1986 , neptune august 8 , 1989 voyager 2 took advantage rare every 189 years alignment slingshot way outer planet outer planet voyager 1 could , principle , headed towards pluto , jpl opted sure thing titan close two probes , knowledge 4 giant planets , satellites , rings become immense voyager 1 2 discovered jupiter complicated atmospheric dynamics , lightning three new satellites discovered two major surprises jupiter rings io active volcanoes , major effects jovian two probes reached saturn , discovered 1000 7 satellites , including predicted shepherd satellites keep rings stable weather compared jupiter massive jet streams minimal variance \( 33 year great white spot band cycle known \) titan 's atmosphere smoggy appearance startling one massive impact crater gave death star appearance big surprise stranger aspects rings , kinks , spokes unexpected difficult explain voyager 2 , thanks heroic engineering programming efforts , continued mission uranus neptune uranus highly appearance one oddity magnetic axis found highly skewed already completely skewed rotational axis , giving uranus peculiar icy channels found ariel , miranda bizarre different 10 satellites one ring discovered contrast uranus , neptune found rather active weather , including numerous cloud features ring arcs turned bright patches one ring two rings , 6 satellites , discovered neptune 's magnetic axis also skewed triton appearance \( 's liquid \? \) two voyagers expected last two decades target gives negative evidence possible planets beyond pluto next major scientific discovery location soviet planetary missions since many soviet probes moon , venus , mars , highlight primary missions soviet lunar probes luna 1 lunar impact attempt 1959 , missed moon became first craft solar orbit luna 2 first craft impact lunar surface 1959 luna 3 took first images lunar farside 1959 3 took first images lunar farside 1965 since luna 3 also test future mars missions luna 9 first probe soft land moon 1966 , returned images surface luna 10 first probe orbit moon 1966 luna 13 second successful soviet lunar soft landing mission 1966 5 first successful craft 6 8 accomplished similar missions 1970 probes unmanned tests manned orbiting soyuz type lunar vehicle luna 16 first probe land moon return samples lunar soil earth 1970 luna 20 accomplished similar mission 1972 luna 17 delivered first unmanned lunar rover moon 's surface , 1 , 1970 similar feat accomplished luna 21 2 1973 luna 24 last soviet lunar mission date returned soil samples 1976 soviet venus probes venera 1 first acknowledged attempt venus mission transmissions lost enroute 1961 venera 2 attempt image venus flyby mission tandem venera 3 probe ceased transmitting encounter february 1966 images returned venera 3 attempt place lander capsule venusian surface transmissions ceased encounter entire probe became first craft impact another planet 1966 venera 4 first probe successfully return data descending venusian atmosphere crushed air pressure reaching surface 1967 venera 5 6 mission profiles similar 1969 venera 7 first probe return data surface another planet 1970 venera 8 accomplished detailed mission 1972 venera 9 sent first image venusian surface 1975 also first probe orbit venus venera 10 accomplished similar mission venera 13 returned first color images venusian surface 1982 venera 14 accomplished similar mission venera 15 accomplished radar mapping venera 16 sections planet 's surface 1983 detailed pvo vega 1 accomplished vega 2 first balloon probes venusian atmosphere 1985 , including two landers flyby buses went become first spacecraft study comet halley close march 1986 soviet mars probes mars 1 first acknowledged mars probe 1962 transmissions ceased enroute following year 2 first possible attempt place lander capsule martian surface probe signals ceased enroute 1965 mars 2 first soviet mars probe land albeit crash martian surface orbiter section first soviet probe circle red planet 1971 mars 3 first successful soft landing martian surface , lander signals ceased 90 seconds 1971 mars 4 attempt orbiting mars 1974 , braking rockets failed fire , probe went solar orbit mars 5 first fully successful soviet mars mission , orbiting mars 1974 returned images martian surface comparable u probe mariner 9 mars 6 landing attempt 1974 lander crashed surface mars 7 lander missed mars completely 1974 , went solar orbit flyby bus phobos 1 first attempt land probes surface mars' largest moon , phobos probe failed enroute 1988 due human computer error phobos 2 attempt land probes martian moon phobos probe enter mars orbit early 1989 , signals ceased one week scheduled phobos landing talk soviet jupiter , saturn , even interstellar probes within next thirty years , major steps yet taken projects intensive studies moon , mars , venus , various comets planned 1990s , mercury mission orbit land probes tiny world planned many changes former soviet union \( commonwealth independent states \) affect future space program remains seen japanese planetary missions sakigake \( ms t5 \) launched space center isas january 8 1985 , approached halley 's comet within 7 million km march 11 , 1986 spacecraft carrying three ments measure interplanetary magnetic field plasma waves solar wind , work normally , isas made earth sakigake january 8 , 1992 orbit similar earth 's closest approach \( utc 9h \) january 8 , 1992 geocentric distance 88 , km first planet japanese spacecraft approach , sakigake observed passages scheduled years hence second earth june 14 , 1993 \( 40 \( earth 's radius \) \) , third october 28 , 1994 \( 86 \) hiten , small lunar probe , launched earth orbit january 24 , 1990 spacecraft known , renamed hiten orbit 430 lb probe earth made first flyby march 19 , dropped 26 lb satellite , hagoromo japan point became third nation orbit satellite around moon , joining unites states ussr smaller spacecraft , hagoromo , remained orbit around moon apparently broken transistor radio caused japanese space scientists lose track hagoromo 's rocket motor fired schedule march 19 , spacecraft 's tracking transmitter failed immediately rocket firing hagoromo optically confirmed using schmidt camera \( 105 cm , f3 1 \) observatory japan hiten made multiple lunar flybys approximately monthly intervals performed aerobraking experiments using earth 's atmosphere hiten made close approach moon 22 33 \( utc 9h \) february 15 , 1992 height 423 km moon 's surface \( 35 3n , 9 7e \) fired propulsion system ten minutes put craft lunar orbit following orbital calculation results approach altitude 49 , 400 km altitude 9 , 600 km inclination 34 7 deg \( ecliptic plane \) period 4 7 days planetary mission references also recommend reading following works , categorized three groups general , specific books particular space missions , sources space probes list means complete primarily designed give places start research generally available works subject anyone add pertinent works list , would greatly appreciated though naturally recommend books listed , think would best started general overview books , order give clear idea history space exploration area also recommend pick good , date general works astronomy sol system , give extra background books periodicals found good public university library recently published works also purchased ordered good mass market bookstore general \( alphabetical order author \) j kelly beatty et al , new solar system , 1990 e davies bruce c murray , view space photographic exploration planets , 1971 kenneth , illustrated encyclopedia space technology , 1990 kenneth , robot explorers , 1972 r , planetary landscapes , 1987 douglas hart , encyclopedia soviet spacecraft , 1987 nicholas l johnson , handbook soviet lunar planetary exploration , 1979 clayton r , jpl american space program history jet propulsion laboratory , 1982 richard lewis , illustrated encyclopedia universe , 1983 mark littman , planets beyond discovering outer solar system , 1988 eugene f gregory l matloff , handbook guide interstellar travel , 1989 frank miles nicholas booth , race mars mars flight atlas , 1988 bruce murray , journey space , 1989 w , far travelers , 1985 \( nasa sp 480 \) james e oberg , uncovering soviet disasters exploring limits , 1988 carl sagan , comet , 1986 carl sagan , cosmic connection , 1973 carl sagan , planets , 1969 \( life science library \) arthur smith , planetary exploration thirty years unmanned space probes , 1988 andrew wilson , \( \) solar system log , 1987 specific mission references charles cross patrick moore , atlas mercury , 1977 \( mariner 10 mission venus mercury , 1973 1975 \) joel davis , flyby interplanetary odyssey voyager 2 , 1987 irl , first venus story mariner 2 , 1963 margaret arthur l lane , voyager story space mission , 1984 carl sagan , murmurs earth , 1978 \( deals earth information records placed voyager 1 2 case probes found interstellar space , well probes planetary mission objectives \) works periodicals nasa published detailed technical books every space probe mission launched good university libraries carry books , easily found simply knowing mission wish read recommend works first study books listed periodicals recommend reading space probes national geographic , written articles pioneer probes earth 's moon luna jovian planets jupiter saturn , ranger , surveyor , lunar orbiter , apollo missions luna , mariner missions mercury , venus , mars , viking probes mars , voyager missions jupiter , saturn , uranus , neptune details american , soviet , european , japanese probe missions found sky telescope , astronomy , science , nature , scientific american magazines time , newsweek , various major newspapers supply general information certain missions , also show else going earth time events , interest space missions affected numerous political , economic , climatic factors , probably know depending far interest space probes go , might also wish join planetary society , one largest space groups world dedicated planetary exploration , planetary report , details latest space probe missions write planetary society , 65 north avenue , pasadena , california usa good luck studies area space exploration personally find planetary missions one exciting areas field , benefits human society receive incredible , many yet realized larry klaes klaes verga enet dec com next faq 11 15 upcoming planetary probes missions schedules
leech cs unc edu \( jon leech \) subject space faq 15 15 orbital planetary launch services supersedes launchers cs unc edu organization university north carolina , chapel hill lines 195 distribution world expires 6 may 1993 20 02 47 gmt nntp posting host mahler cs unc edu keywords frequently asked questions archive name space launchers last modified date 93 04 01 14 39 11 orbital planetary launch services following data comes international reference guide space launch systems steven j , 1991 edition notes unless otherwise specified , leo polar 100 nm orbit data includes launches dec , 1990 vehicles includes launches types longer built applicable prices millions 1990 us subject change operational vehicle families included individual vehicles yet flown marked \( \) vehicle first launch publication data , may still marked vehicle payload kg \( lbs \) reliability price launch site \( nation \) leo polar gto \( lat long \) ariane 35 40 87 5 kourou \( esa \) \( 5 2 n , 52 8 w \) 4 , 900 3 , 900 1 , 900 1 1 \( 10 , 800 \) \( 8 , 580 \) \( 4 , 190 \) 6 , 100 4 , 800 2 , 600 1 1 \( 13 , 400 \) \( 10 , 600 \) \( 5 , 730 \) 6 , 900 5 , 500 3 , 000 0 0 \? 70m \( 15 , 200 \) \( 12 , 100 \) \( 6 , 610 \) 7 , 400 5 , 900 3 , 200 0 0 \? \( 16 , 300 \) \( 13 , 000 \) \( 7 , 050 \) 8 , 300 6 , 600 3 , 700 6 6 \( 18 , 300 \) \( 14 , 500 \) \( 8 , 160 \) 9 , 600 7 , 700 4 , 200 3 4 \( 21 , 100 \) \( 16 , 900 \) \( 9 , 260 \) 18 , 000 \? \? \? 6 , 800 0 0 \( 39 , 600 \) \( 15 , 000 \) atlas 213 245 86 9 cape canaveral \( usa \) \( 28 5 n , 81 0w \) atlas e 820 15 17 afb \( 1 , 800 \) \( 34 7 n , 120 6w \) atlas 5 , 580 4 , 670 2 , 250 1 1 70m \( 12 , 300 \) \( 10 , 300 \) \( 4 , 950 \) atlas ii 6 , 395 5 , 400 2 , 680 0 0 \( 14 , 100 \) \( 11 , 900 \) \( 5 , 900 \) atlas 6 , 760 5 , 715 2 , 810 0 0 \( 14 , 900 \) \( 12 , 600 \) \( 6 , 200 \) atlas 8 , 390 6 , 805 3 , 490 0 0 \( 18 , 500 \) \( 15 , 000 \) \( 7 , 700 \) delta 189 201 94 0 cape canaveral \( usa \) vandenberg afb delta 3 , 900 2 , 950 1 , 450 14 14 \( 8 , 780 \) \( 6 , 490 \) \( 3 , 190 \) delta 5 , 3 , 830 1 , 820 1 1 50m \( 11 , 100 \) \( 8 , 420 \) \( 2 , 000 \) energia 2 2 100 \( russia \) \( 45 6 n 63 4 e \) energia 88 , 000 80 , 000 \? \? \? 2 2 \( 194 , 000 \) \( 176 , 000 \) h series 22 22 100 \( japan \) \( 30 2 n 130 6 e \) h 2 10 , 500 6 , 600 4 , 000 0 0 \( 23 , 000 \) \( 14 , 500 \) \( 8 , 800 \) kosmos 371 377 98 4 \( russia \) \( 62 8 n 40 1 e \) kosmos 1100 1350 \( 2300 3000 \) \? \? \? yar 400 km orbit \? \? \? inclination \( 48 4 n 45 8 e \) long march 23 25 92 0 slc \( china \) \( 41 n 100 e \) cz 1d 720 \? \? \? 200 0 0 10m slc \( 1 , 590 \) \( 440 \) \( 28 n 102 e \) slc cz 2c 3 , 200 1 , 750 1 , 000 12 12 20m \( 41 n 100 e \) \( 7 , 040 \) \( 3 , 860 \) \( 2 , 200 \) cz 2e 9 , 200 \? \? \? 3 , 370 1 1 40m \( 20 , 300 \) \( 7 , 430 \) cz 2e ho 13 , 600 \? \? \? 4 , 500 0 0 \? \? \? \( 29 , 900 \) \( 9 , 900 \) cz 3 \? \? \? \? \? \? 1 , 400 6 7 \( 3 , 100 \) cz 3a \? \? \? \? \? \? 2 , 500 0 0 \? \? \? \( 5 , 500 \) cz 4 4 , 000 \? \? \? 1 , 100 2 2 \? \? \? \( 8 , 800 \) \( 2 , 430 \) pegasus taurus 2 2 100 peg b 52 \( usa \) canaveral pegasus 455 365 125 2 2 10m vandenberg \( 1 , 000 \) \( 800 \) \( 275 \) taurus 1 , 450 1 , 180 375 0 0 15m \( 3 , 200 \) \( 2 , 600 \) \( 830 \) proton 164 187 87 7 \( russia \) proton 20 , 000 \? \? \? 5 , 500 164 187 35 70m \( 44 , 100 \) \( 12 , 200 \) scout 99 113 87 6 vandenberg afb \( usa \) wallops ff scout g 1 270 210 54 13 13 \( 37 9 n 75 4 w \) \( 600 \) \( 460 \) \( 120 \) san marco \( 2 9 40 3 e \) enhanced scout 525 372 110 0 0 15m \( 1 , 160 \) \( 820 \) \( 240 \) 2 2 100 afb \( israel \) \( 31 n \) \? \? \? 160 \? \? \? 2 2 \( 350 \) space shuttle 37 38 97 4 kennedy space \( usa \) center shuttle srb 23 , 500 \? \? \? 5 , 900 37 38 \( 28 5 n 81 0 w \) \( 51 , 800 \) \( 13 , 000 \) shuttle 27 , 100 \? \? \? \? \? \? 0 0 \( 59 , 800 \) slv 2 6 33 3 shar center \( india \) \( \) \( polar \) \( 13 9 n 80 4 e \) 150 \? \? \? \? \? \? 0 2 \? \? \? \( 330 \) 3 , 000 1 , 000 450 0 0 \? \? \? \( 6 , 600 \) \( 2 , 200 \) \( 990 \) 8 , 000 \? \? \? 2 , 500 0 0 \? \? \? \( 17 , 600 \) \( 5 , 500 \) titan 160 172 93 0 cape canaveral \( usa \) vandenberg titan ii \? \? \? 1 , \? \? \? 2 2 \( 4 , 200 \) titan iii 14 , 515 \? \? \? 5 , 000 2 3 \( 32 , 000 \) \( 11 , 000 \) titan iv srm 17 , 700 14 , 100 6 , 350 3 3 154m \( 39 , 000 \) \( 31 , 100 \) \( 14 , 000 \) titan iv 21 , 640 18 , 600 8 , 620 0 0 \? \? \? \( 47 , 700 \) \( 41 , 000 \) \( 19 , 000 \) vostok 96 9 \( russia \) vostok 4 , 730 1 , 840 \? \? \? \? 149 \( 10 , 400 \) \( 4 , 060 \) soyuz 7 , 000 \? \? \? \? \? \? \? 944 15m \( 15 , 400 \) \( 3300 lbs \) \? 258 \? \? \? highly orbit 12 13 92 3 \( russia \) 13 , 740 11 , 380 4 , 300 12 13 \( 30 , 300 \) \( 25 , \) \( 9 , 480 \)
leech cs unc edu \( jon leech \) subject space faq 07 15 astronomical mnemonics supersedes mnemonics cs unc edu organization university north carolina , chapel hill lines 95 distribution world expires 6 may 1993 19 57 55 gmt nntp posting host mahler cs unc edu keywords frequently asked questions archive name space mnemonics last modified date 93 04 01 14 39 14 astronomical mnemonics \( last faq section posted sci astro \) gathered various mnemonic postings sci astro spectral classification sequence b f g k r n oh fine girl kiss right , sweetheart \( classic \) 's big astronomical fiasco gonna kill right surely obese astronomy found guilty killed many reluctant students octopus brains , favorite kitchen menu , requires sauce odd ball astronomers find generally mnemonics really nifty stuff oh big ferocious gorilla , kill roomate next saturday oh boy , flash ! godzilla kills mothra ! really surprising ! oh boy , f grade kills bad fermented grapes keep mrs richard nixon smiling , backward astronomer , forget kepler 's motions reveal nature 's simplicity bad astronomy faculty gets killed monday oven baked ants , fried gently , kept , retain natural overseas broadcast flash ! godzilla kills mothra ! \( rodan named successor \) overweight boys fat girls keep bored astronomers find gratification knowing mnemonics oh bloody astronomy ! f grades kill order planets sun mercury venus earth \( terra \) mars \( asteroids \) jupiter saturn uranus neptune pluto earnest mother served us nine mother made jelly sandwich protest erotic mate satisfies unusual needs men easily make serve useful purposes man early made jug serve useful noble purposes educated mother showed us nine planets eager mother showed us nine planets exhausted mother swept planetary nebula voters earn money showing near polls educated mother served us nine pizza many elephants made john , uncle need protection solar mass easily makes jupiter 's satellites undergo numerous perturbations mein mir \( father explains every sunday nine planets \) man menschen \( never scorn despise person misfortune bad luck misery period ! \) colors spectrum red orange yellow green blue indigo violet roy g \( pronounce man 's name \) richard york gave battle vain read good book verse galilean satellite jupiter io europa ganymede callisto expect god cries eat green cheese good christians ich christen \( scare good christians \) saturnian satellites met dr miriam 's taste divine recently tell i'm proud \( , , , , rhea , titan , hyperion , iapetus , \) satellites uranus often angel takes \( miranda , ariel , , , oberon \) note remaining faq sections appear sci astro , cover material relevance sci space next faq 8 15 contacting nasa , esa , space agencies companies
leech cs unc edu \( jon leech \) subject space faq 08 15 addresses supersedes addresses cs unc edu organization university north carolina , chapel hill lines 230 distribution world expires 6 may 1993 19 58 29 gmt nntp posting host mahler cs unc edu keywords frequently asked questions archive name space addresses last modified date 93 04 01 14 38 55 contacting nasa , esa , space agencies companies many space activities center around large government international us means nasa basic information requests \( e g , general pr info , research grants , data , limited tours , especially summer employment \( typically resumes ready jan 1 \) , etc \) , consider contacting nearest nasa center answer questions email typically get , computers used investigators , pr people typical volume mail per center multiple 10 , 000 letters day seek public information office one , job nasa \( national aeronautics space administration \) civilian space agency united states federal government reports directly white house cabinet post military department defense 20k employees civil servants hence us citizens another 100k contractors also work nasa nasa centers nasa headquarters \( nasa hq \) washington dc \( 202 \) 358 1600 ask questions policy , money , things political nature direct specific questions appropriate center nasa ames research center \( arc \) moffett field , ca 94035 \( 415 \) 694 aeronautical research , atmosphere reentry , mars venus planetary atmospheres lead center helicopter research , v , etc runs pioneer series space probes nasa ames research center dryden flight research facility dfrf p box 273 edwards , ca \( 805 \) 258 aircraft , mostly tested shuttle orbiter landing characteristics developed x 1 , 558 , x 3 , x 4 , x 5 , xb 70 , course , x 15 nasa goddard space flight center \( gsfc \) greenbelt , md 20771 outside washington dc \( 301 \) 344 earth orbiting unmanned satellites sounding rockets developed landsat jet propulsion laboratory \( jpl \) california institute technology 4800 oak grove dr pasadena , ca 91109 \( 818 \) 354 planetary research probes unmanned projects \( also lot iras \) run voyager , magellan , galileo , run cassini , craf , etc etc images , probe navigation , info unmanned exploration , place go jpl run contract nasa nearby california institute technology , unlike nasa centers distinction subtle critical jpl different requirements unsolicited research proposals summer hires instance latter , sf 171 useless employees caltech employees , contractors , part similar responsibilities offer alternative funding nasa centers fact sheet description jpl available anonymous ftp ames arc nasa gov pub space faq nasa johnson manned space center \( jsc \) houston , tx 77058 \( 713 \) 483 5111 jsc manages space shuttle , ground control manned missions astronaut training manned mission nasa kennedy space flight center \( ksc \) , fl \( 407 \) 867 space launch center know one nasa langley research center \( larc \) hampton , va near news , va \( 804 \) 865 original nasa site specializes theoretical experimental flight dynamics viking long duration exposure facility nasa lewis research center \( lerc \) 21000 brookpark rd cleveland , oh 44135 \( 216 \) 433 4000 aircraft rocket propulsion space power generation materials research nasa marshall space flight center \( msfc \) huntsville , al \( 205 \) 453 development , production , delivery solid rocket boosters , external tank , orbiter main engines propulsion launchers assembly facility orleans parish new orleans , la \( 504 \) 255 shuttle external tanks produced formerly produced first stages saturn v space center bay st louis , mississippi \( 601 \) 688 space shuttle main engines tested , saturn v first second stages center also remote sensing technology transfer research wallops flight center wallops island , va \( 804 \) 824 3411 aeronautical research , sounding rockets , scout launcher manager , technology utilization office nasa scientific technical information facility post office box baltimore , maryland specific requests software must go thru cosmic univ georgia , nasa 's contracted software redistribution service reach cosmic uga bitnet note foreign nationals requesting information must go embassies washington dc facilities us government regarded degree economic sensitivity centers cannot directly return information without high center approval allow least 1 month clearance includes cosmic us air force space command contacted thru pentagon along department defense offices offices los angeles , sunnyvale , colorado springs , locations budget rivals nasa size arianespace headquarters boulevard de b p 177 cedex france arianespace , inc pennsylvania avenue , nw suite 875 washington , dc \( 202 \) 728 european space agency \( esa \) 955 plaza w washington , c \( 202 \) 488 national space development agency \( nasda \) 4 1 cho , 2 chome ku , tokyo 105 , japan 45 pr moscow ussr space camp alabama space rocket center u space camp 1 tranquility base blvd huntsville , al fl \( 205 \) 837 3400 \( 407 \) 267 registration mailing list handled huntsville camps described brochure programs offered space camp space camp one week , youngsters completing grades 4 6 space academy one week , grades 7 9 aviation challenge one week high school program , grades 9 11 space academy ii 8 days , college accredited , grades 10 12 adult program 3 days \( editorial comment 's great ! \) teachers program 5 days space commerce corporation \( u agent soviet launch services \) 504 pluto drive , texas commerce tower colorado springs , co houston , tx \( 719 \) 578 \( 713 \) 227 9000 spacehab 600 maryland avenue , sw suite 201 west washington , dc \( 202 \) 488 spot image corporation preston white drive , reston , va \( fax \) \( 703 \) 648 1813 \( 703 \) 620 2200 commercial space businesses vincent maintains list addresses info variety companies space related businesses mailed space investors list runs \( see network resources faq \) also available anonymous ftp nectar cs cmu edu \( 128 2 209 111 \) usr vac ftp space companies next faq 9 15 schedules space missions , see
leech cs unc edu \( jon leech \) subject space faq 11 15 upcoming planetary probes supersedes new probes cs unc edu organization university north carolina , chapel hill lines 243 distribution world expires 6 may 1993 20 00 01 gmt nntp posting host mahler cs unc edu keywords frequently asked questions archive name space new probes last modified date 93 04 01 14 39 17 upcoming planetary probes missions schedules information upcoming currently active missions mentioned would welcome sources nasa fact sheets , cassini mission design team , isas nasda launch schedules , press kits \( astro \) isas \( japan \) x ray astronomy satellite , launched earth orbit 2 20 93 equipped large area wide wavelength \( 1 20 \) x ray telescope , x ray ccd cameras , imaging gas proportional counters cassini saturn orbiter titan atmosphere probe cassini joint nasa esa project designed accomplish exploration saturnian system cassini saturn orbiter huygens titan probe cassini scheduled launch aboard titan iv centaur october 1997 gravity assists venus , earth jupiter trajectory , spacecraft arrive saturn june upon arrival , cassini spacecraft performs several maneuvers achieve orbit around saturn near end initial orbit , huygens probe separates orbiter descends atmosphere titan orbiter relays probe data earth 3 hours probe enters cloudy atmosphere surface completion probe mission , orbiter continues touring saturnian system three half years titan synchronous orbit trajectories allow 35 flybys titan targeted flybys iapetus , objectives mission conduct detailed studies saturn 's atmosphere , rings conduct close studies saturn 's satellites , characterize titan 's atmosphere surface one intriguing aspects titan possibility surface may covered part lakes liquid hydrocarbons result processes upper atmosphere hydrocarbons condense form global smog layer eventually rain onto surface cassini orbiter use onboard radar peer titan 's clouds determine liquid surface experiments aboard orbiter entry probe investigate chemical processes produce unique atmosphere cassini mission named jean dominique cassini \( \) , first director paris observatory , discovered several saturn 's satellites major division rings titan atmospheric entry probe named dutch physicist huygens \( \) , discovered titan first described true nature saturn 's rings key scheduled dates cassini mission \( trajectory \) 10 06 97 titan iv centaur launch 04 21 98 venus 1 gravity assist 06 20 99 venus 2 gravity assist 08 16 99 earth gravity assist 12 30 00 jupiter gravity assist 06 25 04 saturn arrival 01 09 05 titan probe release 01 30 05 titan probe entry 06 25 08 end primary mission \( schedule last updated 7 22 92 \) galileo jupiter orbiter atmosphere probe , transit returned first resolved images asteroid , gaspra , transit jupiter efforts stuck high gain antenna \( hga \) essentially abandoned jpl developed backup plan using data compression \( jpeg like images , lossless compression data instruments \) allow mission achieve approximately 70 original objectives galileo schedule 10 18 89 launch space shuttle 02 09 90 venus flyby 10 90 venus data playback 12 08 90 1st earth flyby 05 01 91 high gain antenna 07 91 06 92 1st asteroid belt passage 10 29 91 asteroid gaspra flyby 12 08 92 2nd earth flyby 05 93 11 93 2nd asteroid belt passage 08 28 93 asteroid ida flyby 07 02 95 probe separation 07 09 95 orbiter deflection maneuver 12 95 10 97 orbital tour jovian moons 12 07 95 jupiter io encounter 07 18 96 ganymede 09 28 96 ganymede 12 12 96 callisto 01 23 97 europa 02 28 97 ganymede 04 22 97 europa 05 31 97 europa 10 05 97 jupiter exploration hiten japanese \( isas \) lunar probe launched 1 24 90 made multiple lunar flybys released hagoromo , smaller satellite , lunar orbit mission made japan third nation orbit satellite around moon magellan venus radar mapping mission mapped almost entire surface high resolution currently \( 4 93 \) collecting global gravity map mars observer mars orbiter including 1 5 pixel resolution camera launched 9 25 92 titan iii tos booster mo currently \( 4 93 \) transit mars , arriving 8 24 93 operations start 11 93 one martian year \( 687 days \) topex poseidon joint us french earth observing satellite , launched 8 10 92 ariane 4 booster primary objective topex poseidon project make precise accurate global observations sea level several years , substantially increasing understanding global ocean dynamics satellite also increase understanding heat transported ocean ulysses european space agency probe study sun orbit poles launched late 1990 , carries particles fields experiments \( magnetometer , ion electron collectors various energy ranges , plasma wave radio receivers , etc \) camera since human built rocket hefty enough send ulysses far ecliptic plane , went jupiter instead , stole energy planet sliding jupiter 's north pole gravity assist february 1992 bent path solar orbit tilted 85 degrees ecliptic pass sun 's south pole summer 1993 5 2 au , , surprisingly , perihelion 1 5 au 's right , solar studies spacecraft 's always sun earth ! jupiter 's , ulysses studied magnetic radiation environment short summary results , see science , v 257 , p \( 11 september 1992 \) technical detail , see many articles issue space science missions \( note based posting ron baalke 11 89 , isas nasda information contributed yamada \( yamada go jp \) i'm attempting track changes based updated shuttle manifests corrections updates welcome 1993 missions alexis spring , pegasus alexis \( array low energy x ray imaging sensors \) perform wide field sky survey soft \( low energy \) x ray spectrum scan entire sky every six months search variations soft x ray emission sources white , variable stars stars also search nearby space exotic objects isolated neutron stars gamma ray bursters alexis project los alamos national laboratory primarily technology development mission uses astrophysical sources demonstrate technology contact project investigator jeffrey j bloch \( jjb beta lanl gov \) information wind aug , delta ii rocket satellite measure solar wind input space radar lab sep , sts 60 srl 01 gather radar images earth 's surface total ozone mapping spectrometer dec , pegasus rocket study stratospheric ozone sfu \( space flyer unit \) isas conducting space experiments observations recovered conducts various scientific engineering experiments sfu launched isas retrieved u space shuttle sts 68 1994 1994 polar auroral plasma physics may , delta ii rocket june , measure solar wind ions gases surrounding earth 2 \( sts \) nasda , jul 1994 02 international microgravity laboratory nasda advanced earth observing satellite b \( mu space engineering satellite b \) isas conducting research precise mechanism space structure space astronomical observations electromagnetic waves 1995 lunar isas crust structure thermal construction moon 's interior proposed missions advanced x ray astronomy facility \( axaf \) possible launch shuttle 1995 , axaf space observatory high resolution telescope would orbit 15 years study mysteries fate universe earth observing system \( eos \) possible launch 1997 , 1 6 us orbiting space platforms provide long term data \( 15 years \) earth systems science including planetary evolution mercury observer possible 1997 launch lunar observer possible 1997 launch , would sent long term lunar orbit observer , 60 miles moon 's poles , would survey characteristics provide global context results apollo program space infrared telescope facility possible launch shuttle 1999 , 4th element great observatories program free flying observatory lifetime 5 10 years , would observe new comets primitive bodies outer solar system , study cosmic birth formation galaxies , stars planets distant infrared emitting galaxies mars rover sample return \( \) robotics rover would return samples mars' atmosphere surface analysis possible launch dates 1996 imaging orbiter , 2001 rover fire ice possible launch 2001 , use gravity assist flyby earth , use final gravity assist jupiter 2005 , probe split fire ice components fire probe journey sun , taking measurements star 's upper atmosphere intense heat ice probe head towards pluto , reaching tiny world study next faq 12 15 controversial questions
leech cs unc edu \( jon leech \) subject space faq 04 15 calculations supersedes math cs unc edu organization university north carolina , chapel hill lines 334 distribution world expires 6 may 1993 19 56 03 gmt nntp posting host mahler cs unc edu keywords frequently asked questions archive name space math last modified date 93 04 01 14 39 12 performing calculations interpreting data formats computing spacecraft orbits trajectories references frequently recommended net fundamentals roger , donald mueller , jerry white 1971 , dover press , 8 95 \( us \) \( paperback \) isbn 0 486 0 nasa spaceflight \( dating 1960s \) sp 33 orbital flight handbook \( 3 parts \) sp 34 lunar flight handbook \( 3 parts \) sp 35 planetary flight handbook \( 9 parts \) might found university aeronautics libraries ordered us govt printing office \( gpo \) , although information would probably needed order , determination characteristics ballistic interplanetary trajectories influence multiple planetary attractions , technical report 32 464 , jet propulsion laboratory , pasadena , calif , oct , 1963 title says starts basics works way good companion article , utilizing large planetary design deep space solar probe ecliptic trajectories , technical report 32 849 , jpl , pasadena , calif , 1965 need read first one first realy understand one include short summary find second contact jpl availability reports spacecraft attitude dynamics , peter c hughes 1986 , john wiley sons celestial mechanics computational guide practitioner , lawrence g , \( wiley , new york , 1985 \) starts basics \( 2 body problem , coordinates \) works orbit , perturbations , differential corrections also briefly discusses stellar dynamics including short discussion n body problems computing planetary positions net references van flandern , low precision formulae planetary positions , astrophysical j series , 41 391 411 , 1979 look astronomy physics library also said available willmann bell gives series compute positions accurate 1 arc minute period 300 years pluto included stated accuracy 15 arc minutes interactive computer almanac \( mica \) , produced us naval observatory valid years 1990 1999 55 \( 80 outside us \) available ibm \( order \) macintosh \( order \) ntis sales desk , \( 703 \) 487 believe intended replace 's interactive computer ephemeris interactive computer ephemeris \( us naval observatory \) distributed ibm pc floppy disks , 35 \( willmann bell \) covers dates 1800 planetary programs tables 4000 2800 , simon 1986 , willmann bell floppy disks available separately fundamentals celestial mechanics \( 2nd ed \) , j 1988 , willmann bell good fundamental text includes basic programs companion set floppy disks available separately astronomical formulae calculators \( 4th ed \) , j 1988 , willmann bell astronomical algorithms , j 1991 , willmann bell actively use one editions astronomical formulae calculators , want replace astronomical algorithms new book oriented towards computers calculators contains formulae planetary motion based modern work jet propulsion laboratory , u naval observatory , bureau des previous books based formulae mostly developed last century algorithms available separately diskette practical astronomy calculator \( 3rd ed \) , p smith 1988 , cambridge university press orbits amateurs microcomputer , 1984 , stanley , ltd includes example programs basic orbits amateurs ii , 1987 , john wiley sons astronomy scientific software catalog shareware , public domain , commercial software ibm pcs astronomy software includes planetarium simulations , ephemeris generators , astronomical databases , solar system simulations , satellite tracking programs , celestial mechanics , andromeda software , inc p box 605 amherst , ny computing crater earth impacting asteroids gene shoemaker proposes following formula , based studies caused nuclear tests \( 1 3 4 \) c k w crater diameter km g p f n \( 1 6 \) \( g g \) gravity correction factor bodies g e earth , g 9 8 2 g surface e gravity target body scaling cited lunar craters may hold true bodies \( 1 3 4 \) \( p p \) correction factor target density p , p p 1 8 g cm 3 u crater site , p 2 6 g cm 3 average rock continental shields c crater collapse factor , 1 craters 3 km diameter , 1 3 larger craters \( earth \) \( 1 3 4 \) k km \( kt tnt equivalent \) n empirically determined u nuclear test crater 3 2 19 w pi delta v \( 12 4 185 10 \) projectile kinetic energy kt tnt equivalent given diameter , velocity v , projectile density delta units delta around 3 g cm 3 fairly good asteroid rms velocity v 20 km sec may used earth crossing asteroids assumptions , body created meteor crater arizona \( 1 13 km diameter \) would 40 meters diameter generally , one use \( gehrels , 1985 \) asteroid number objects impact probability impact energy diameter \( km \) \( impacts year \) \( 5 10 20 ergs \) 10 10 10 8 10 9 1 1 000 10 6 10 6 0 1 100 000 10 4 10 3 assuming simple scaling laws note 5 10 20 ergs 13 000 tons tnt equivalent , energy released hiroshima bomb references gehrels , 1985 asteroids comets physics today 38 , 32 41 excellent general overview subject layman shoemaker , e 1983 asteroid comet bombardment earth ann rev earth planet sci 11 , 461 494 long fairly technical comprehensive examination subject shoemaker , e , j g williams , e f r f wolfe 1979 earth crossing asteroids orbital classes , collision rates earth , origin asteroids , gehrels , ed , pp 253 282 , university arizona press , tucson cunningham , c j 1988 introduction asteroids next frontier \( richmond bell , inc \) covers aspects asteroid studies excellent introduction subject people experience levels also extensive reference list covering essentially reference material field map projections spherical two easy find sources map projections , \( particularly older volumes \) tutorial appearing graphics gems \( academic press , 1990 \) latter written simplicity exposition digital computation mind \( spherical trig formulae also appear , digitally plotted examples \) ever cared know map projections john snyder 's usgs publication map projections working manual , usgs professional paper 1395 contains detailed descriptions 32 projections , history , features , projection formulas \( spherical earth earth \) , numerical test cases 's neat book , 382 pages worth one 's 20 might also want companion volume , snyder philip , album map projections , usgs professional paper 1453 contains less detail 130 projections variants formulas back , example plots front 14 , 250 pages order 2 ways cheap , slow way direct usgs earth science information center , us geological survey , 507 national center , reston , va \( 800 \) usa maps quote price tell send money expect 6 8 week turnaround time much faster way \( 1 week \) timely discount , \( 303 \) 469 , w drive , suite 9 , , co call tell want 'll quote price , send check , go usgs customer service counter pick add 3 4 service charge , plus shipping \( perhaps accessible \) mapping article r miller f reddy , mapping world pascal , byte v12 14 , december 1987 contains turbo pascal procedures five common map projections demo program , pas , small \( 6 , 000 point \) coastline data available compuserve , genie , many bbss references spherical spherical astronomy , w smart , cambridge u press , 1931 compendium spherical astronomy , newcomb , dover , 1960 spherical astronomy , r green , cambridge u press , 1985 \( update smart \) spherical astronomy , e g , academic press , 1966 performing n body simulations efficiently computer simulation using particles r w j w eastwood \( adam bristol philadelphia 1988 \) rapid evaluation potential fields particle systems , l mit press , 1988 breakthrough \( n \) simulation method l v , fast algorithm particle simulations , journal computational physics , 73 325 348 , 1987 \( n \) algorithm three dimensional n body simulations , thesis , feng zhao , mit technical report 995 , 1987 galactic dynamics j \( princeton u press princeton 1987 \) includes \( n 2 \) fortran code written , pioneer field hierarchical \( n log n \) tree methods described papers w , efficient program many body simulation , journal scientific statistical computing , vol 6 , p 85 , 1985 barnes hut , hierarchical \( n log n \) force calculation algorithm , nature , , 4 10 dec 1986 l , hierarchical n body methods , computer physics communications , vol 48 , p 107 , 1988 interpreting fits image format need examine fits images , use ppm package \( see comp graphics faq \) convert preferred format information format software read write , see sci astro fits faq sky \( unix ephemeris program \) 6th edition unix operating system came several software systems distributed older media capacity limitations included , satellite track , speech synthesis software , sky \( 6 \) , available within sites possessing unix source code license program regarded unix source code sky 0 5mb send proof source code license e miya ms 258 5 nasa ames research center moffett field , ca 94035 1000 eugene orville nas nasa gov three dimensional star galaxy coordinates generate 3d coordinates astronomical objects , first obtain astronomical database specifies right ascension , , parallax objects convert parallax distance using formula part 6 faq , convert ra coordinates unit sphere \( see references planetary positions spherical earlier section details \) , scale distance two databases useful purpose yale bright star catalog \( sources listed faq section 3 \) catalogue stars within 25 sun \( pub space faq stars data stars doc ames arc nasa gov \) next faq 5 15 references specific areas
ncar ucar edu \( mark bradford \) subject astro space frequently seen acronyms supersedes space acronyms gza com organization unlimited , lines 509 expires 19 may 1993 04 00 04 gmt nntp posting host pad thai aktis com keywords long space astro acronyms x last updated 1992 12 07 archive name space acronyms edition 8 acronym list sci astro , sci space , sci space shuttle edition 8 , 1992 dec 7 last posted 1992 aug 27 list offered reference translating commonly appearing acronyms space related newsgroups forgot botched favorite acronym , please let know ! also , 's acronym list confuses , drop line , figure , 'll add list note intended reference frequently seen acronyms , emphatically incorporated every acronym ever saw , 'd soon run disk space ! \) list posted regular intervals , every 30 days comments regarding welcome i'm reachable ncar ucar edu note tells acronyms stand 're figuring mean ! note also total number acronyms use far exceeds list special purpose acronyms essentially always explained 're introduced omitted , acronyms stand one thing edition 3 list , acronyms appear multiple lines , unless 're simply different ways referring thing thanks everybody 's sent suggestions since first version list , especially garrett \( griffin uvm edu \) , maintaining independent list , somewhat verbose character mine , daniel fischer \( dfi bonn mpg de \) , maintaining truly huge list \( 535 last count \) acronyms terms , mostly german \( read , fortunately \) special thanks time ken hollis nasa , sent copy nasa reference publication 1059 revised space transportation system associated payloads glossary , acronyms , abbreviations , truly tome almost 300 pages special bonus ! end posting , find perl program written none larry wall , whose purpose scramble acronym list entertaining fashion thanks , larry ! astronomy astrophysics anglo australian observatory aas american astronomical society aas american astronautical society american association variable star observers ace advanced composition explorer acrv assured crew return vehicle \( \) astronaut crew rescue vehicle ames dryden flight research facility \( dfrf \) \( nasa \) agn active galactic nucleus american geophysical union aiaa american institute aeronautics astronautics aips astronomical image processing system aj astronomical journal alexis array low energy x ray imaging sensors alpo association lunar planetary observers als advanced launch system ansi american national standards institute aoa abort around \( shuttle abort plan \) attitude orbit control system ap j astrophysical journal apm attached pressurized module \( k columbus \) auxiliary power unit arc ames research center \( nasa \) advanced relay technology mission asa astronomical society atlantic advanced solid rocket motor advanced tracking data relay satellite atlas atmospheric laboratory applications science atm amateur telescope maker abort orbit \( shuttle abort plan \) au astronomical unit aura association universities research astronomy aw st aviation week space technology \( k \) axaf advanced x ray astrophysics facility batse burst transient source experiment \( cgro \) broad band x ray telescope \( astro package \) bug eyed monster bh black hole berkeley illinois maryland array bnsc british national space centre btw way c communications tracking cape canaveral air force station ccd charge coupled device centers commercial development space cd rom compact disk read memory cfa center astrophysics cfc columbus free flyer canada france hawaii telescope cgro \( arthur holley \) compton gamma ray observatory \( gro \) chara center high angular resolution astronomy infrared radiance instrument shuttle cit imaging telescope cm command module \( apollo spacecraft \) central mission control centre \( esa \) centre national carbon nitrogen oxygen comet nucleus sample return cobe cosmic background explorer compton telescope \( cgro \) costar corrective optics space telescope axial replacement craf comet rendezvous asteroid flyby combined release radiation effects satellite csm command service module \( apollo spacecraft \) consolidated satellite test center \( usaf \) observatory dcx delta clipper experimental dc dc converter unit dfrf dryden flight research facility \( \) defense meteorological satellite program dod department defense \( sometimes dod \) doe department energy dot department transportation defense satellite communications system dsn deep space network dsp defense support program \( usaf \) edwards air force base ecs environmental control system edo extended duration orbiter egret energetic gamma ray experiment telescope \( cgro \) ejasa electronic journal astronomical society atlantic elv expendable launch vehicle emu mobility unit eos earth observing system ers earth resources satellite \( ers 1 \) esa european space agency eso european southern observatory et \( shuttle \) external tank extended three letter acronym eastern test range euv extreme ultraviolet extreme ultraviolet explorer eva activity faq frequently asked questions fast fast auroral snapshot explorer fft fast fourier transform fgs fine guidance sensors \( hst \) fixed head star trackers \( hst \) fir far infrared fits flexible image transport system faint object camera \( hst \) faint object \( hst \) flight readiness review ftp file transfer protocol flight fuse far ultraviolet explorer full width half maximum fyi information gas get away special green bank telescope general catalog variable stars gem giotto extended mission geo geosynchronous earth orbit gds great dark spot goddard high resolution \( hst \) gif graphics interchange format global low orbiting message relay gmc giant molecular cloud giant meter wave radio telescope gmt greenwich mean time \( also called ut \) goes geostationary orbiting environmental satellite gaseous oxygen gpc general purpose computer gps global positioning system gro gamma ray observatory \( cgro \) gamma ray spectrometer \( mars observer \) great red spot guide star catalog \( hst \) gsfc goddard space flight center \( nasa \) gto geostationary transfer orbit hao high altitude observatory hd henry draper catalog entry high energy astronomical observatory hera hermes robotic arm hf high frequency hga high gain antenna heavy lift capability hlv heavy lift vehicle halley camera \( giotto \) hr russell \( diagram \) hri high resolution imager \( \) high speed photometer \( hst \) hst hubble space telescope hut hopkins ultraviolet telescope \( astro package \) hv high voltage international amateur professional photometry iau international astronomical union iau circular ice international cometary explorer ida international dark sky association idl interactive data language igm intergalactic medium international geophysical year imho humble opinion iota infrared optical telescope array iota international timing association ips pointing system ir infrared iraf image reduction analysis facility iras infrared astronomical satellite isas institute space astronautical science \( japan \) ism interstellar medium iso infrared space observatory iso international standards organization international solar polar mission \( ulysses \) isy international space year international ultraviolet explorer upper stage japanese experiment module \( ssf \) journal geophysical research joint institute laboratory astrophysics jpl jet propulsion laboratory jsc johnson space center \( nasa \) kao kuiper airborne observatory kitt peak national observatory ksc kennedy space center \( nasa \) boundary \( german \) lanl los alamos national laboratory larc langley research center \( nasa \) long duration exposure facility lem lunar excursion module \( k lm \) \( apollo spacecraft \) leo low earth orbit lerc lewis research center \( nasa \) lest large earth based solar telescope list frequently seen acronyms \( ! \) lga low gain antenna little green men lh liquid hydrogen \( also \) llnl lawrence livermore national laboratory lm lunar module \( k lem \) \( apollo spacecraft \) lmc large cloud liquid n2 \( nitrogen \) lox liquid oxygen liquid rocket booster local standard rest lunar transient phenomenon mb manned base mcc mission control center main engine cutoff mmh mmt multiple mirror telescope mmu manned maneuvering unit monthly notices royal astronomical society mars observer camera \( mars observer \) mol manned orbiting laboratory mars observer laser altimeter \( mars observer \) manned orbital maneuvering vehicle manned orbital transfer vehicle mpc minor planets circular mars rover sample return mars rover sample return mission msfc \( george c \) marshall space flight center \( nasa \) man tended capability national advisory committee aeronautics \( became nasa \) nasa national aeronautics space administration nasda national space development agency \( japan \) nasm national air space museum nasp national aerospace plane nbs national bureau standards \( nist \) nasp derived vehicle nuclear engine rocket vehicle application new general catalog near infrared camera multi object spectrometer \( hst upgrade \) near infrared mapping spectrometer \( galileo \) near infrared nist national institute standards technology \( nbs \) national launch development program noaa national atmospheric administration noao national optical astronomy observatories nrao national radio astronomy observatory national reconnaissance office ns neutron star nsa national security agency nsf national science foundation national solar observatory nssdc national space science data center ntr nuclear thermal rocket \( ry \) ntt new technology telescope orbiting astronomical observatory office commercial space transportation office management budget oms orbital maneuvering system orbiter processing facility orbiting retrievable far extreme ultraviolet spectrometer osc orbital sciences corporation oscar orbiting satellite carrying amateur radio ossa office space science applications oriented spectrometer experiment \( cgro \) optical telescope assembly \( hst \) horizon otv orbital transfer vehicle ov orbital vehicle pam payload assist module pam payload assist module , delta class pi principal investigator portable life support system pm pressurized module pmc permanently manned capability pressure modulated infrared \( mars observer \) pmt tube point spread function psr pulsar pv photovoltaic pvo pioneer venus orbiter qso quasi stellar object cage interface \( sls mission \) rcs reaction control system rem rat enclosure module \( sls mission \) rf radio frequency rfi radio frequency interference research institute advanced computer science rms remote manipulator system revised new general catalog satellite rodents unusual size \( n't believe exist \) rsn real soon rtg generator return launch site \( shuttle abort plan \) south atlantic anomaly saga solar array gain \( hst \) solar particle explorer sao smithsonian astrophysical observatory sar search rescue sar synthetic aperture radar sara satellite pour radio amateur search rescue exercise shuttle amateur radio experiment sas space activity suit sas space adaptation syndrome sat synthetic aperture telescope c spacecraft sca shuttle carrier aircraft sct schmidt telescope sdi strategic defense initiative sdio strategic defense initiative organization sei space exploration initiative swedish eso telescope seti search extraterrestrial intelligence sid sudden disturbance sir shuttle imaging radar sirtf space \( formerly shuttle \) infrared telescope facility sl spacelab side looking airborne radar slc space launch complex sls space \( lab \) life sciences smc small cloud solar explorer small explorers smm solar maximum mission sn supernova \( e g , \) signal noise ratio supernova remnant solar units stratospheric observatory infrared astronomy solar observatory span space physics analysis network special purpose manipulator spot systeme pour de la sps solar power satellite srb solid rocket booster srm solid rocket motor ssf space station fred \( er , freedom \) ssi solid state imager \( galileo \) ssi space studies institut ssme space shuttle main engine space station processing facility space station remote manipulator system survey telescope supersonic transport ssto single stage orbit space telescope imaging spectrometer \( replace \) sts shuttle transport system \( \) space transportation system stsci space telescope science institute wave astronomy satellite swf fading tal abort landing \( shuttle abort plan \) tau thousand astronomical unit \( mission \) tcs thermal control system tracking data relay satellite tracking data relay satellite system tes thermal emission spectrometer \( mars observer \) television infrared observation satellite three letter acronym total ozone mapping spectrometer tps thermal protection system tss satellite system uars upper atmosphere research satellite berthing mechanism ufo unidentified flying object uppsala general catalog uhf ultra high frequency uit ultraviolet imaging telescope \( astro package \) united kingdom schmidt telescope usaf united states air force united states microgravity payload ut universal time \( k gmt , utc , zulu time \) utc coordinated universal time \( k ut \) uv ultraviolet ultraviolet spectrometer vehicle assembly building \( formerly vertical assembly building \) vandenberg air force base venus earth earth gravity assist \( galileo flight path \) vhf high frequency large array long baseline array vlbi long baseline vlf low frequency large telescope vms vertical motion simulator venus orbiting imaging radar \( superseded \) vertical processing facility venus radar mapper \( called magellan \) wd white dwarf wide field planetary camera \( hst \) replacement wisconsin indiana yale noao telescope wsmr white sands missile range western test range wisconsin ultraviolet experiment \( astro package \) x ray multi mirror extreme ultraviolet young stellar object ! usr bin perl , acronym scrambling program , larry wall threshold 2 srand \( \) next unless \( z \) key 1 acro key ' words split \( w , ' \) unshift \( words , key \) 0 word \( words \) next unless word z w vec \( w word , 6 , 1 \) 1 letter \( z \) w letter w keys w \( w threshold \) ' usr chop push \( w , \) key \( sort keys acro \) 0 acro acro key acro \( \( \( z \) z \) z \) pick \( 3 , 2 , 1 , \) eg print key acro sub pick local \( letter , prefix , oldword , \) 0 \( length \( prefix \) 1 index \( key , prefix \) 0 \) \( prefix eq oldword \) prefix '' else prefix letter \( length \( prefix \) 1 \) local \( w \) \( prefix , 0 , 1 \) word w rand w word ne oldword word prefix 30 word prefix prefix word \( length \( prefix \) 1 \) local \( w \) prefix word w rand w word ne oldword vec \( w word , , 1 \) 10 word u l word word tr z z word else local \( w \) \( oldword , 0 , 1 \) word w rand w word ne oldword word tr z z 0 30 word mark bradford \( ncar ucar edu \) err human , 's ill wind gathers moss
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject hlv fred \( space station \? \) article zoo organization u toronto zoology lines 28 article news cso uiuc edu jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu \( josh hopkins \) writes titan iv launches ai n't cheap granted 's titan iv 's bought governemnt titan iii actually cheapest way put pound space us expendable launchers case 's rather ironic poorly commercial market single titan iii order \? problem commercial titan mm made little attempt market 're basically happy government business n't want learn sell commercially secondary problem bit big 'd need go multi satellite launches , la ariane , marketing task quite significantly also problems launch facilities wrong time get started properly memory serves , pad used mars observer launch come heavy work prevented launches year ct launches mars observer one stranded intelsat , least one brothers reached orbit properly work one man 's work henry spencer u toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
prb access digex com \( pat \) subject space research spin organization express access online communications usa lines 30 nntp posting host access digex net article zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) writes article ip access digex net prb access digex com \( pat \) writes thought area rule boeing nasa guys developed rule , one knew worked boeing built hardware 727 maybe fb 111 \? \? \? \? \? nope decisive triumph area rule 's yf 102 mach 1 5 fighter actually found incapable going supersonic level flight turned area ruled yf met specs well either 727 fb 111 102 flew late 1953 , spent first half 1954 figuring went wrong second half building first work one man 's work henry spencer u toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry good thing stuck couple question marks seem recall , somebody built least proposed wasp passenger civil transport thought 727 , maybe dc 8 , 9 \? \? \? sure funny passenger compartment , hand seemed save fuel thought area rules applied even speeds , badly pat
seas ucla edu \( david h \) subject orbit data help needed organization , university california , los angeles lines 43 elements orbit , need convert something useful , preferably distance earth evenly spaced time intervals gsm coordinate system preferable , convert systems c , pascal , fortran code , point book something 'd great 's first lines file 0 \( \) 1 \( 2x , a3 , 7x , \) 2 \( 2x , i5 , 2x , a3 , 2x , 18 \) 3 \( 4x , a3 , 7x , 18 \) 1 semi major axis 1 ecc eccentricity 1 inc inclination 1 ra node 1 pom argument 1 true anomaly 1 hap height 1 height 2 3 beg 0 05 3 0 05 3 ecc 0 00 3 inc 0 02 3 0 03 3 pom 0 03 3 0 03 3 hap 0 06 3 0 05 2 1 ref 0 05 3 0 05 3 ecc 0 00 3 inc 0 02 3 0 03 3 pom 0 03 3 0 05 3 hap 0 06 3 0 05 thanks advance , larry ucla edu
dietz cs rochester edu \( paul dietz \) subject nuclear waste organization university rochester lines 41 article 843 rins ryukoku ac jp rins ryukoku ac jp \( william reiken \) writes real reason accelerator breeders built n't reason natural uranium still cheap , geological disposal looks technically reasonable november december , 1987 page 21 science technology japan seawater uranium recovery experiment ground uranium reserves estimated 3 6 million tons , anticipated demand supply balance collapse end 20th century japan , resources poor country , technological development way economically collect uranium dissolved seawater total uranium dissolved seawater estimated 4 6 billion tons , huge amount compared ground uranium reserves hate pour cold water , currently seawater extracted uranium , even using new , improved fiber japan , 20 times expensive uranium spot market uranium cheap right , around 10 lb right , mines closing ca n't compete places like cigar lake canada \( ore rich present safety hazards mines , work shielded vehicles \) plenty sources \( example , uranium phosphate processing \) would come line uranium reached 200 lb demand supply balance collapse nonsense supply demand always balance changes price uranium going increase price factor 20 end century \? bloody likely new nuclear reactors built sufficient rate uranium seawater interesting , 's long term project , project japanese might justify grounds self sufficiency paul f dietz dietz cs rochester edu
18084tm msu edu \( tom \) subject nasa \( dis \) incentives x added forwarded space digest organization via international space university original sender isu vacation venari cs cmu edu distribution sci lines 23 questions issues wrt congress raised discussed dennis replies black white white except black called white money put system study find justified call black , white also white called black , opposite occurs white color , white called black , calls question validity color spectrum given however nasa military , whose competence black white well known \( remember black white paint saturn v rocket \? \) nothing occur either black white used congress , cares nothing results , money pork barrel jobs brought black white controversy dennis , must always see things black white terms \? \) tommy mac tom mcwilliams 517 355 2178 wk radius vision increases , 18084tm ibm cl msu edu 336 9591 hm circumference mystery grows
prb access digex com \( pat \) subject alaska pipeline space station ! organization express access online communications usa lines 25 nntp posting host access digex net article 1993apr5 7592 mksol dseg ti com mccall mksol dseg ti com \( fred j mccall 575 3539 \) writes think would great way build , unfortunately current spending rules n't permit workable work would necessary government guarantee certain minimum amount business order sufficiently reduce risk enough make attractive private firm since generally ca n't allocate money except one year time , government ca n't provide tenant guarantee fred try reading bit government lots multi year contracts penalty cancellation clauses like damn sure know sign multi year contract reason n't cutting defense spending much would like reagan administration signed enough multi year contracts , 's cheaper finish look ssf years funding 2 2 billion , 1 8 cover penalty clauses , due design pat
mit edu \( peter \) subject el sets organization mit lincoln laboratory distribution us lines 5 looking source orbital element sets space command believe one compuserve please let know possible sources reach thanks much
world std com \( michael \) subject vulcan \? \( , guy ears ! \) organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 21 victor inqmind bison mb ca \( victor laking \) writes anyone info apparent sightings vulcan \? know apparently two sightings drastically different times small planet inside mercury 's orbit beyond , info anyone know anything specific \? \( yes , happened long star trek apparently got reference guy ears \) yes , long star trek einstein , fact vulcan planet inside mercury hypothesized explain mercury 's orbit could explained known planets einstein 's theory relativity explained mercury 's motion , analysis mercury 's motion shows planets inside orbit mike
yamauchi ces cwru edu \( brian yamauchi \) subject griffin office exploration rip organization case western reserve university lines 19 distribution world nntp posting host ces cwru edu comments absorbtion office exploration office space sciences griffin chief engineer position \? meaningless administrative shuffle , bode ill sei \? opinion , seems like bad thing , least surface griffin seemed someone actually interested getting things done , willing look innovative approaches getting things done faster , better , cheaper 's unclear whether able new position anyone know new duties \? brian yamauchi case western reserve university yamauchi alpha ces cwru edu department computer engineering science
marcus rpi edu \( sean michael gallagher \) subject funding nasa article rpi lines 8 nntp posting host marcus rpi edu political science paper funding nasa pork barrel politics would interested information funding practices histories major programs \( apollo , sts , ssf , etc \) funding ssto contrast could someone please recommend sources would useful \? thank sean gallagher rpi edu
munizb rwtms2 decnet rockwell com \( rwtms2 munizb \) subject alaska pipeline space station ! x added forwarded space digest organization via international space university original sender isu vacation venari cs cmu edu distribution sci lines 16 date 01 apr 93 18 03 12 gmt , ralph buttigieg ralph buttigieg z3 fido zeta org au writes ca n't government \? private commercial concerns could build space station system charge rent government financed researchers wanting use believe thought behind industrial space facility n't remember details , think space services \( \? \) wanted nasa sign anchor tenancy deal order help secure venture capital nasa n't like deal \( i'm sure 'll hear i'm wrong ! \) disclaimer opinions stated solely \( unless change mind \) ben munizb rwtms2 decnet rockwell com w \( 818 \) 586 space station freedom rocketdyne rockwell structural loads dynamics man fly fifty years wilbur orville wright ,
munizb rwtms2 decnet rockwell com \( rwtms2 munizb \) subject long island \( use ac 20khz ssf power \) x added forwarded space digest organization via international space university original sender isu vacation venari cs cmu edu distribution sci lines 21 date fri , 2 apr 1993 23 19 46 gmt , edmund hack arabia ! hack writes article access digex net prb access digex com \( pat \) writes always thought gd 's fighter plants long island , plant long island n't think ever plant long island two main manufacturers \( fairchild \) republic closed doors 46 cancellation , grumman \( still hanging last time called \) think also started 're ever area check cradle aviation museum mitchell field \( mostly parking lots behind coliseum community college \) good display vehicles long island , including lem flight article disclaimer opinions stated solely \( unless change mind \) ben munizb rwtms2 decnet rockwell com w \( 818 \) 586 space station freedom rocketdyne rockwell structural loads dynamics man fly fifty years wilbur orville wright ,
munizb rwtms2 decnet rockwell com \( rwtms2 munizb \) subject ignite ssme \? x added forwarded space digest organization via international space university original sender isu vacation venari cs cmu edu distribution sci lines 21 date sat , 3 apr 1993 12 38 50 gmt , paul dietz dietz cs rochester edu writes essence , holding match , nuts one thing absolutely must engine guarantee propellants ignite soon mix , within milliseconds otherwise fill engine high explosive mixture , finally ignite , blows everything hell definitely ! one reports early test conducted rocketdyne santa susanna field lab \( hill san fernando simi valleys \) , result hung start described structural failure combustion chamber inspection picture showed pumps nothing , cc ! described class took typical engineering understatement \) disclaimer opinions stated solely \( unless change mind \) ben munizb rwtms2 decnet rockwell com w \( 818 \) 586 space station freedom rocketdyne rockwell structural loads dynamics man fly fifty years wilbur orville wright ,
jgreen trumpet calpoly edu \( james thomas green \) subject vulcan \? \( , guy ears ! \) organization california polytechnic state university , san luis obispo lines 31 article inqmind bison mb ca victor inqmind bison mb ca \( victor laking \) writes victor inqmind bison mb ca \( victor laking \) subject vulcan \? \( , guy ears ! \) date sun , 04 apr 93 19 31 54 cdt anyone info apparent sightings vulcan \? know apparently two sightings drastically different times small planet inside mercury 's orbit beyond , info anyone know anything specific \? heard story , albert came theory warped space , nobody could account mercury 's orbit ran little fast \( think \) simple newtonian physics success finding neptune explain odd uranus , postulated might another inner planet explain mercury 's orbit 's unlikely anything bigger asteroid closer sun mercury i'm sure would spotted perhaps professionals confirm \( james green \) \( jgreen oboe calpoly edu \) heaven , n place wicked cease troubling talk personal affairs , good listen attention expound ambrose , devil 's dictionary
pgf srl03 cacs usl edu \( phil g fraering \) subject comet temporary orbit around jupiter \? article srl03 pgf organization univ southwestern louisiana lines 22 shag aero org \( rob unverzagt \) writes article kelvin jpl nasa gov baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov \( ron baalke \) writes according iau circular , comet shoemaker levy 1993e , may temporarily orbit around jupiter comet apparently made close flyby jupiter sometime 1992 resulting breakup comet attempts determine comet 's orbit complicated near impossibility measuring comet 's center mass missing something knowing comet 's center mass orbit determination \? shag i'm sure , almost sounds like ca n't figure nucleus within coma 're couple hundred miles , well , imagine rest phil fraering seems like every day find sorts stuff pgf srl02 cacs usl edu like ancient mayans televison repo man
nsmca aurora alaska edu subject blow space station , easy way article aurora 1993apr5 1 organization university alaska fairbanks lines 28 nntp posting host acad3 alaska edu might real wierd idea maybe seen people blown sprayed material makes hard walls thing space station fly docking rings materials , blow , spin around \( know problem micro gravity \) let dry cure harden \? cut hole docking attaching ring bingo space station course would foil covered radiation protective covering heat shield \( \? \) material used make would meet specs atleast paint covering inner wall would human safe maybe special maybe material makes changes \( saw someone dof water put beer mixture , got mix strong easier carry around \) sorry spelling errors , missed school today \( grin \) musta space station difficult \? \? must \? confined earth based ideas , lets think new ideas , space earth , limited earth based ideas \? \? michael adams , nsmca acad3 alaska edu i'm high , jacked going crazy alaska , break
edu \( dan \) subject 81 supernova x added forwarded space digest organization via international space university original sender isu vacation venari cs cmu edu distribution sci lines 7 'bout info alleged supernova 81 \? might break scope one sir , n't like ! mr horse dan edu
jgreen trumpet calpoly edu \( james thomas green \) subject ussr reached moon first \? organization california polytechnic state university , san luis obispo lines 25 suppose soviets managed get moon rocket working made first could beaten us either rocket n't blown pad thus setting back , saturn v went boom beaten us , speculate us would gone head done landings , also would determined set base \( earth orbit moon \) whether would mars would depend upon whether soviets tried go setting lunar base would stretched budgets nations think military value lunar base would outweigh value going mars \( least short run \) thus would concentrated moon \( james green \) \( jgreen oboe calpoly edu \) believe nation commit achieving goal , decade , landing man moon returning safely earth john f kennedy may 25 , 1961
nsmca aurora alaska edu subject portable small ground station \? dir article aurora 1993apr5 1 organization university alaska fairbanks lines 21 nntp posting host acad3 alaska edu article zoo toronto edu , henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) writes article 1993apr2 1 aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes difficult would set ground station \? ground station \? one extreme , amateur radio satellites sometimes reachable hand held radios , nothing back yard let listen galileo please specific work one man 's work henry spencer u toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry specific basically able things big monitor , control need shuttle one australia michael adams , nsmca acad3 alaska edu i'm high , jacked
pgf srl03 cacs usl edu \( phil g fraering \) subject space research spin organization univ southwestern louisiana lines 37 shafer rigel dfrf nasa gov \( mary shafer \) writes 4 apr 1993 20 31 10 0400 , prb access digex com \( pat \) said pat article 1993apr2 1 aurora alaska edu pat nsmca aurora alaska edu writes question someone give 10 examples direct nasa space related research helped humanity general \? interesting see pat tang \) mylar think think also pushed hi tech pat composites look fly wire swept wings fly airliners 've reaped benefits n't one early jet fighters \? also think germans work wwii area ruling digital fly wire ride smoothing lot also done military microwave landing systems wings general aviation air n't first microwave landing systems wwii \? mary shafer dod 0362 kotfr nasa dryden flight research facility , edwards , ca shafer rigel dfrf nasa gov course n't speak nasa mig six better mig unknown us fighter pilot ! i'm disagreeing mary shafer ! phil fraering seems like every day find sorts stuff pgf srl02 cacs usl edu like ancient mayans televison repo man
pgf srl03 cacs usl edu \( phil g fraering \) subject griffin office exploration rip organization univ southwestern louisiana lines 43 yamauchi ces cwru edu \( brian yamauchi \) writes comments absorbtion office exploration office space sciences griffin chief engineer position \? meaningless administrative shuffle , bode ill sei \? opinion , seems like bad thing , least surface griffin seemed someone actually interested getting things done , willing look innovative approaches getting things done faster , better , cheaper 's unclear whether able new position anyone know new duties \? first 've heard offhand griffin longer office head , 's bad hand regress seemed think ca n't fund anything griffin , would mean \( lies old 400 billion mars mission prove \) would buying mission mars would cost 400 billion therefore 20 million dollar lunar orbiter et cetera killing griffin 's main program simply somewhere congress would simply buy old stuff sorta like giving aid yeltsin 's communist least sort reforms griffin trying bring forward wo n't trapped little easily contained ghetto griffin staying capacity good brings something , noone say n't go back belong \( could n't even get money design studies \) phil fraering seems like every day find sorts stuff pgf srl02 cacs usl edu like ancient mayans televison repo man
nsmca aurora alaska edu subject dc x vehicle flight test article aurora 1993apr5 1 organization university alaska fairbanks lines 53 nntp posting host acad3 alaska edu article zoo toronto edu , henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) writes article snap paj uk co gec mrc \( paul johnson \) writes bit interests much automatic control \? purely autonomous degree ground control \? stick man always onboard computer computer normally gets orders stored program , ground transition aerodynamic flight \( thats \) hover accomplished \? really new part 's also one tricky parts four different ideas , dc x probably end trying \( talking mitch burnside , 's one dc x test pilots , making orbit \) \( 1 \) pop nose , light engines thing base first simple reliable heavy shock loads area structure n't otherwise carry major loads needs door hot part structure , door whose operation mission critical \( 2 \) switch pitch stability dc unstable speeds wait flip , catch 180 degrees , light engines bit scary \( 3 \) light engines use thrust push tail around probably preferred method long run tricky fuel feed plumbing fuel start tops tanks , flip keeping engines properly fed complicated \( 4 \) build speed dive , pull hard \( losing lot speed , thing 's l great \) 's headed vertical velocity drops zero , point starts fall tail first light engines also bit scary , probably n't enough altitude left try work one man 's work henry spencer u toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry since dc x take horizontal , land way \? \? martian landing thing missing something n't know much dc x \( overly obvious \? \) fall earth like russian crafts \? \? parachute michael adams , nsmca acad3 alaska edu i'm high , jacked please enlighten ignorance easy correct make mistake everyone let know messed
nsmca aurora alaska edu subject alaska pipeline space station , go commerical article aurora 1993apr5 1 organization university alaska fairbanks lines 15 nntp posting host acad3 alaska edu sounds liek fed sign 50 year lease use certain parts space station built designed commerical company consortium companies \( like \) small amount rent return certain incentives tax right also monopoly certain products commerical builders would certain given make end easier \( taxes , contracts , regulatory \) workable , might work , china lease hong kong people hong kong make money , could work michael adams , nsmca acad3 alaska edu i'm high , jacked
dietz cs rochester edu \( paul dietz \) subject venus done cheaply \? organization university rochester lines 9 would someone please send james oberg 's email address , one someone reading list knows \? wanted send comment something book paul f dietz dietz cs rochester edu potential explosive yield annual global production 5 million
nsmca aurora alaska edu subject mach 25 landing site bases \? article aurora 1993apr5 1 organization university alaska fairbanks lines 7 nntp posting host acad3 alaska edu supersonic booms hear months ago belive san fran , heading east heard , new super speed mach 25 aircraft \? \? military based int direction flight could handle mach landing decent \? \? odd question \? \? michael adams , nsmca acad3 alaska edu i'm high , jacked
ken sugra uucp \( kenneth ng \) subject nuclear waste organization private computer , totowa , nj lines 18 article 1993mar31 mksol dseg ti com mccall mksol dseg ti com \( fred j mccall 575 3539 \) writes bit , phil n't nuclear fuel get plant bomb grade plutonium also cheaper , given current prices things , simply fabricate new fuel rods rather old ones , creating potentially dangerous materials \( national security point view \) fabricate back fuel rods plutonium may result something may go kind boom , hardly decent bomb grade plutonium want bomb grade plutonium use research reactor , power reactor want bomb , n't use plutonium , use uranium kenneth ng please reply ken njit edu might elaborate simulation running little device sitting someone 's table j l picard st tng
jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu \( josh hopkins \) subject griffin office exploration rip article news organization university illinois urbana lines 23 yamauchi ces cwru edu \( brian yamauchi \) writes comments absorbtion office exploration office space sciences griffin chief engineer position \? meaningless administrative shuffle , bode ill sei \? unfortunately , things ill \( legitimate \? \) office exploration great ideas , never got much money 've heard good things griffin , 's hard want back job could n't anything anyone know new duties \? group examining freedom based space station redesign proposals headed michael griffin , nasa 's cheif engineer words space news believe josh hopkins jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu tout ce est capable , capable de la jules verne
jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu \( josh hopkins \) subject dc x vehicle flight test article news organization university illinois urbana lines 34 nsmca aurora alaska edu writes excellent discussion dc x landing techniques henry deleted since dc x take horizontal , land way \? \? dc x take horizontally takes vertically martian landing thing several reasons vertical landings n't require miles runway limit noise pollution n't require wheels wings turn engines touch course , henry pointed , landings n't quite simple missing something n't know much dc x \( overly obvious \? \) well , blunt , yes least 're learning fall earth like russian crafts \? \? parachute soyuz vehicles use parachutes descent fire small rockets hit ground parachutes , however , especially practical want reuse something without much effort landings also comfortable however , words , prefer bruises , sink josh hopkins jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu tout ce est capable , capable de la jules verne
ghelf violet berkeley edu \( \) subject space food sticks keywords food article agate organization university california , berkeley lines 19 nntp posting host violet berkeley edu sticks every morning breakfast first second grade \( 69 70 , 70 71 \) came chocolate , strawberry , peanut butter cylinders long diameter wrapped yellow space foil \( well , seemed like space foil time \) taste hard describe , although remember fondly certainly candy say modern power bar sort injected vitamins chocolate power bar rough approximation taste strawberry sucked man , 60 's gavin uc berkeley political science berkeley stanford program soviet studies ghelf violet berkeley edu
gnb leo bby com au \( gregory n bond \) subject area rule \( space research spin \) article bby 1993apr6 access digex net shafer ra dfrf nasa gov ip access digex net 1993apr5 1 fnalf fnal gov organization burdett , buckeridge young , melbourne , australia lines 9 reply higgins fnalf fnal gov 's message 5 apr 93 13 36 19 0600 nntp posting host leo gw somebody elaborate area ruling gather 's something aerodynamics trans sonic planes , coke bottle good , coke bad anyone provide details , derivation etc \? gregory bond gnb bby com au burdett buckeridge young ltd melbourne australia knox 's 386 slick fox sox , knox 's box knox 's box quick plays lots lsl 's sick ! \( apologies john iron bar mackin \)
seale possum den mmc com \( eric h seale \) subject comet temporary orbit around jupiter \? nntp posting host pogo den mmc com organization martin marietta astronautics , denver lines 8 baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov \( ron baalke \) writes according iau circular , comet shoemaker levy 1993e , may temporarily orbit around jupiter comet apparently made close flyby jupiter sometime 1992 resulting breakup comet would thought galileo would get chance check comet \? ! \?
drickel bounce mentorg com \( dave rickel \) subject i'm idiot , else new \? originator drickel bounce nntp posting host bounce mentorg com organization mentor graphics keywords lines 17 article jsc nasa gov , mcelwre cnsvax uwec edu \( r e mcelwaine \) writes operative march 1993 , russian president boris yeltsin proposed united states united nations global defense shield \( star wars type weapons \) funny bit disturbing forging posting seems somewhat unethical , even subject notorious mcelwaine followups definitely go sci space david rickel drickel mentorg com
roland sics se \( roland karlsson \) subject magellan venus maps \( thanks \) reply baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov 's message 30 mar 1993 00 34 ut lines 14 organization swedish institute computer science , thanks ron peter nice maps advice though wrote maps reduced 256 colors far ad understand jpeg pictures gets much better \( compressed files smaller \) use original 3 color 24 bit data converting jpeg thanks , roland karlsson sics , po box 1263 , 164 28 , sweden internet roland sics se tel 46 8 752 15 40 fax 46 8 751 72 30 telex 812 7011 sics 812 7011 sics
szabo techbook com \( nick szabo \) subject ssf redesign constellation summary automate functions keywords space station , constellation article techbook organization public access unix \( 503 \) 220 lines 89 ssf redesign let 's right time ! let 's step back consider functionality want 1 microgravity vacuum process research 2 life sciences research \( adaptation space \) 3 spacecraft old nasa approach , shuttle ssf far , functionality projects failed meet targets wide margin military commercial users took payloads shuttle wasting much effort tie payloads , ssf 50 billion spent two projects reduction launch costs improvement commercial space meanwhile , military commercial users come superior strategy space development constellation firstly , different functions broken different placed optimal orbit function thus gps navstar constellation 12 hour orbits , clarke orbits , etc secondly , task distributed amongst several spacecraft constellation , providing redundancy full coverage needed ssf 's 3 main functions require quite different environments also prime candidates 1 microgravity constellation comet mir long duration flights , shuttle spacelab short duration flights best strategy area inexpensive , incremental improvement installation u facilities mir , shuttle mir , transition shuttle spacelab much less expensive ssto spacehab comet ssto comet might also expand research program take advantage interesting space environments , eg high radiation van allen belt gas plasma comet tails comet system much easily tasks , station large launch beyond leo 2 need study life sciences microgravity , also lunar martian , radiation environments deep space instead protected shelter leo long term , low priority project , since astronauts little practical use space program costs come orders magnitude furthermore , using astronauts severely restricts scope investigation , sample size propose , constellation tether satellites test various levels gravity super van allen belt orbits representative radiation environment encountered earth moon , earth mars , earth asteroid , etc trips life support machinery might operated real time earth thru vr interface several orbital missions flown , follow ons act lunar martian surface , testing actual environment low cost billions spent astronauts 3 far largest market spacecraft servicing clarke orbit propose fleet small robots small test satellites ground engineers practice skills place , robots pry stuck solar arrays antennas , attach solar battery power packs , inject fuel , etc fleet working , spun commercial company \( \) work comsat companies develop comsat module standards applying successful constellation strategy , getting rid failed centralized strategy sts old ssf , radically improved capability program greatly cutting cost fraction ssf 's , fix satellites satellites , study life 's adaptation much large representative variety space environments , microgravity vacuum research inexpensively , needed , special purpose orbits n b , apply constellation strategy space exploration well , greatly cutting cost increasing functionality mars network two good examples set network native propellant plants mars used fuel planet wide rover ballistic hopper prospecting sample return descendants 's technology used mars surface test closed ecology mars low cost nick szabo szabo com
drickel bounce mentorg com \( dave rickel \) subject quaint us article news 1993apr06 organization mentor graphics lines 14 originator drickel bounce nntp posting host bounce mentorg com article 1 cs cmu edu , nickh cs cmu edu \( nick haines \) writes oh , advantage n't shit constants like 32 \? \? \? hanging around , instead stupid things like 3600 458 9 many cc 's ml anyway \? metric system problems , many david rickel drickel mentorg com
flb flb optiplan fi \( f baube tm \) subject area rule x added forwarded space digest organization via international space university original sender isu vacation venari cs cmu edu distribution sci lines 12 read refered parabolic cross section rule idea plot area fuselage cross section function point fore aft along fuselage , plot \( technical \) fred baube \( tm \) times intellectual ferment , baube optiplan fi advantage intellect include disclaimer h fermented may '68 , paris 's retrospective time ! !
aws iti org \( allen w sherzer \) subject hlv fred \( space station \? \) article iti 1993apr6 organization evil geniuses better tomorrow lines 22 article news cso uiuc edu jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu \( josh hopkins \) writes titan iii cheapest us launcher lb basis case 's rather ironic poorly commercial market single titan iii order \? problems biggest technical problem need find two satellites going rough orbit also n't show much interest commercial launches money made titan iv 's government , n't every day find sucker , er , customer thinks paying three times commercial rate launch services good idea ! allen allen w sherzer great man one nothing leaves aws iti org nothing undone 71 days first flight dcx
aws iti org \( allen w sherzer \) subject alaska pipeline space station ! organization evil geniuses better tomorrow lines 20 article 1993apr5 7592 mksol dseg ti com mccall mksol dseg ti com \( fred j mccall 575 3539 \) writes ca n't government \? think would great way build , unfortunately current spending rules n't permit workable actually , longer true last years congress laws provide whatever needed note spacehab comet funded way problems n't legal technical problem nasa 's culture allen allen w sherzer great man one nothing leaves aws iti org nothing undone 71 days first flight dcx
kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov subject space food sticks article aio 1993apr6 organization nasa jsc gm2 , space shuttle program office lines 17 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 john \( cso uiuc edu \) wrote anyone ever heard food product called space food sticks \? remember awful things dry , recall asking third grade teacher , miss , kept floating around zero g clue seen anything like today 's space program apollo technology best forgotten ken jenks , nasa jsc gm2 , space shuttle program office kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov \( 713 \) 483 4368 men planet earth first set foot upon moon july 1969 , came peace mankind
mccall mksol dseg ti com \( fred j mccall 575 3539 \) subject metric vs english article mksol 1993apr6 organization texas instruments inc lines 31 1993apr5 pixel kodak com dj ssd kodak com \( dave jones \) writes keith mancus \( mancus sweetpea jsc nasa gov \) wrote bruce dunn mindlink bc ca \( bruce dunn \) writes si neatly separates concepts mass , force weight gotten horribly us system problem english units pound defined unit force , period perfectly good unit called slug , mass object weighing 32 2 lbs sea level \( g 32 2 ft sec 2 , course \) american military english units , perhaps us real english types taught pound mass force \( force causes 1 pound accelerate 1 ft 2 \) rare olde exams units metric well american , perhaps , nothing military learned \( mostly \) talked english units high school physics teacher ex navy fighter book certainly n't produced military small made math come funny sort reason proponents si give using insisting perfect safety people n't balls live real world mary shafer , nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com n't speak others n't speak
mccall mksol dseg ti com \( fred j mccall 575 3539 \) subject market gov failures article mksol 1993apr6 8998 distribution sci organization texas instruments inc lines 52 1 cs cmu edu 18084tm msu edu \( tom \) writes fred saying gov coercive poser necessary space program reply btw , fred , 've really crossed border , since admit ideas support carried coercive power 's really f in' intolerant , get yer high horse tolerance fred replies , tommy , admit things necessitate intervention capitalist forces correct guess understanding classified phil 's level 19th century , since apparently completely ignored easily , even much easily , attributed government intervention failure , addition strong moral argument propose , also strong argument , namely gov 's destruction wealth taxation redistribution major scale made significant private capital investments harder make note make case claim easily yes , argument \( \) made current government policy creates even larger market barriers first place , term , since government change policies whenever pleases market n't governed \( relatively \) well understood forces taxation , etc , , bottom , much simplistic economic thinking cliche anyone knows economics invariably happens tripe la tommy , new dish get clue , little boy , go wounded pride considering infallible fashion i'm interested ego games , fred , besides simply attempt insulting , really belongs private mail , insults strange negative \? wherever get inflated idea importance \? insisting perfect safety people n't balls live real world mary shafer , nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com n't speak others n't speak
pete extro ucc su oz au \( peter alexander \) subject ussr reached moon first \? nntp posting host extro ucc su oz au organization sydney university computing service , sydney , nsw , australia lines 25 jgreen trumpet calpoly edu \( james thomas green \) writes beaten us , speculate us would gone head done landings , also would determined set base \( earth orbit moon \) whether would mars would depend upon whether soviets tried go setting lunar base would stretched budgets nations think military value lunar base would outweigh value going mars \( least short run \) thus would concentrated moon great speculation remember proud behalf free world \( think way seven years old \) got first i'm almost sorry worked way guess soviets would taken victory seriously , would almost certainly fallen victim complacency us program perhaps stretching match us efforts would sooner fact tradition marvel comics 'what , destabilization era might triggered third world war hmm , maybe giant leap internet pete extro su oz au accept everything uucp uunet , mcvax ! munnari ! extro ! pete reject nothing
mccall mksol dseg ti com \( fred j mccall 575 3539 \) subject nuclear waste organization texas instruments inc lines 78 1993apr2 2521 cs rochester edu dietz cs rochester edu \( paul dietz \) writes article 1993apr1 mksol dseg ti com mccall mksol dseg ti com \( fred j mccall 575 3539 \) writes system would produce enough energy drive accelerator , perhaps left high power \( 100 's mw cw quasi cw \) , sharp proton beam would required , appears achievable using linear accelerator biggest question mark would lead target chemistry line processing elements paul , quite frankly 'll believe really going work typical trash one needs process see put couple tons one end get \( relatively \) clean material end , plus able run residual power sounds almost like perpetual motion , n't \? fred , honest thing would admit criticism scientific grounds invalid , rather pretend actually talking engineering feasibility given postings , ca n't say surprised , though well , pardon trying continue discussion rather dismay considered actually trying recover energy process \( least trying go 'right' way energy curve \) , put ashes \? anything pleased surprised , though , nothing like perpetual motion note n't say perpetual motion , even sounded like perpetual motion phrase sounds almost like perpetual motion , , least , consider somewhat different one elect criticize perhaps beg pardon precise use language \? physics well understood energy comes fission folks talked reactors since 1950s neutron sources use today research tools accelerator design improving , particularly superconducting accelerating , helps feasibility los alamos expertise high current accelerators \( \) , believe know talking believe process comes even close approaching technological economic feasibility \( given mixed nature trash run opposed costs separating things first different \) see dump tons one end pull \( relatively \) clean material costs , technological risks , etc , taken account still class one idea throwing waste sun sure , 's possible physics well understood , really reasonable approach \? still wonder sort rate could get something like , opposed kind energy would really recover opposed would cost build power without energy recovery talking ounces , pounds , tons \( grams , kilograms , metric tons , si fans \) material talking days , weeks , months , years \( days , weeks , months years , si fans hmmm , still using non decimated time scale , see \) \) \? real reason accelerator breeders built n't reason natural uranium still cheap , geological disposal looks technically reasonable insisting perfect safety people n't balls live real world mary shafer , nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com n't speak others n't speak
mccall mksol dseg ti com \( fred j mccall 575 3539 \) subject nuclear waste organization texas instruments inc lines 32 phantom gatech edu matthew phantom gatech edu \( matthew deluca \) writes article 841 rins ryukoku ac jp rins ryukoku ac jp \( william reiken \) writes well pretty much says gotten alot replys looks like oil earth greedy little oil obviously n't give uses oil leaves us high dry greedy little oil companies \? n't blame oil companies supply demand created , , everyone else planet run , faults also ignores things would become significantly expensive oil disappear \( thus things would longer economically feasible \) , oil hardly resource consumables supply decreases , prices rise alternatives become also needs consider estimated 30 years reserves pretty much long anyone cared petroleum whatever current usage rate , always seem 30 year reserve know i'm sure last figure still true tend look hard prices comparatively cheap certainly true hte days 70 's insisting perfect safety people n't balls live real world mary shafer , nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com n't speak others n't speak
apryan vax1 tcd ie subject sts 56 press kit lines 9 nntp posting host vax1 tcd ie organization trinity college dublin lines 9 anyone know sts 56 email press kit ever released \? tony ryan , astronomy space , new international magazine , available astronomy ireland , p box 2888 , dublin 1 , ireland 6 issues \( one year sub \) uk 10 00 pounds , us 20 surface \( add us 8 airmail \) access visa mastercard accepted \( give number , expiration date , name address \) \( world's largest astro soc per capita unless know better \? 0 033 \) tel 0891 88 1950 \( uk n ireland \) 1550 111 442 \( eire \) cost 48p per min
fys ruu nl \( gert jan van \) subject dutch symposium summary u het symposium 26 4 93 keywords , symposium organization physics department , university utrecht , netherlands lines 122 symposium op 26 april 1993 het jaar , jaar na de van de universiteit van utrecht , de universiteit de ter , de , en de de , en de van het dit jaar het 350 jaar dat de en , het utrecht , de van hun een breed aan zo er een , de een aantal met een en op de dies aan een een er op en op 26 april aan een de van het symposium een van de van het het aan de , de de van bij de van het de een zo en breed te van de stand van het aan de , zal prof een van de van , de van een half op de na van er tot het van het op een apart vel het van de op en van ! de van prof , als alles , de van de worden om via een het , en utrecht het van een , een pulsar , de door te en te prof zal de \( \) en te het van dit experiment en met de technische ervan de op te zo , dat pas na een van 10 jaar om een lamp van 30 watt een te ! het symposium zal er zo lang te worden de ons live het te aan het symposium f 4 , \( lunch \) en f 16 , \( lunch \) door het te op 44 46 97 713 n v 350 jus het van de bank utrecht bij de te worden men lid van de na de bij na 31 de een lunch te het symposium , universiteit utrecht het symposium kan men bij henrik spoon , p r n , 2 , ca utrecht tel 030 e mail ruu nl 9 30 met thee 10 00 opening prof dr h j g l \( utrecht \) 10 10 prof dr h j g l 10 25 prof dr j e \( utrecht \) 11 00 pulsars prof dr f \( utrecht \) 11 50 van prof dr j van \( amsterdam \) 12 25 van drs r f van oss \( utrecht \) 13 00 lunch 14 00 er uit \? dr r g \( amsterdam \) 14 35 bij op en dr van der \( amsterdam \) 15 10 thee 15 30 en met en prof dr v \( leiden \) 16 05 16 25 gert jan van \? informatica something blue universiteit utrecht shapes , need shapes ! 030
apryan vax1 tcd ie subject cosmos 2238 lines 11 nntp posting host vax1 tcd ie organization trinity college dublin lines 11 need much information cosmos 2238 rocket fragment \( 1993 \) possible purpose , launch date , location , short , everything ! help \? tony ryan , astronomy space , new international magazine , available astronomy ireland , p box 2888 , dublin 1 , ireland 6 issues \( one year sub \) uk 10 00 pounds , us 20 surface \( add us 8 airmail \) access visa mastercard accepted \( give number , expiration date , name address \) \( world's largest astro soc per capita unless know better \? 0 033 \) tel 0891 88 1950 \( uk n ireland \) 1550 111 442 \( eire \) cost 48p per min
baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov \( ron baalke \) subject comet temporary orbit around jupiter \? organization jet propulsion laboratory lines 22 distribution world nntp posting host kelvin jpl nasa gov news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article 1993apr6 den mmc com , seale possum den mmc com \( eric h seale \) writes baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov \( ron baalke \) writes according iau circular , comet shoemaker levy 1993e , may temporarily orbit around jupiter comet apparently made close flyby jupiter sometime 1992 resulting breakup comet would thought galileo would get chance check comet \? ! \? comet gehrels 3 , discovered 1977 , determined temporary jovian orbit 1970 1973 comet shoemaker levy 1993e may remain orbit around jupiter long enough allow galileo make closeup observations orbital trajectory comet shoemaker levy still determined ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab \) 525 3684 telos cynical never helps pasadena , ca 91109 correct situation causes aggravation instead
usc edu \( mark \) subject summer internships article organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 15 nntp posting host usc edu hi folks exactly certain best place ask , searching summer internship engineering graduating early may b aerospace engineering pursuing masters fall anyone know anything available , process ng larger companies \( ie , martin marietta , lockheed knows anything would appreciate could mail thanks advance mark usc edu aludra usc edu
shag aero org \( rob unverzagt \) subject space food sticks keywords food article news organization organization \? must kidding lines 35 nntp posting host aerospace aero org article agate berkeley edu ghelf violet berkeley edu \( \) writes sticks every morning breakfast first second grade \( 69 70 , 70 71 \) came chocolate , strawberry , peanut butter cylinders long diameter wrapped yellow space foil \( well , seemed like space foil time \) n't plain flavor \? looked like kind industrial product food perfectly smooth cylinders perfectly smooth ends kinda scary taste hard describe , although remember fondly certainly candy say modern power bar sort injected vitamins chocolate power bar rough approximation taste strawberry sucked post described like roll captures texture pretty well taste , like candy , sweet make sense \? recall liking texture , taste guess well developed texture buds man , 60 's obligatory eat watching captain scarlet anybody else remember , long 're topic space \? shag rob unverzagt shag aerospace aero org tuesday green day unverzagt aero org
rins ryukoku ac jp \( william reiken \) subject nuclear waste organization ryukoku univ , , japan lines 12 article phantom gatech edu , matthew phantom gatech edu \( matthew deluca \) writes greedy little oil companies \? n't blame oil companies supply demand created , , everyone else planet run , faults ok , creation oil producing bacteria \? figure make eat make shit comments \?
rins ryukoku ac jp \( william reiken \) subject nuclear waste organization ryukoku univ , , japan lines 4 thanks update
pyron skndiv dseg ti com \( dillon pyron \) subject space food sticks keywords food lines 25 nntp posting host skndiv dseg ti com reply pyron skndiv dseg ti com organization ti dseg vax support article news cso uiuc edu , cso uiuc edu \( john \) writes anyone ever heard food product called space food sticks \? apparently created marketed around time lunar expeditions , along tang dehydrated foods spoken several people eaten , described dehydrated candy information would greatly appreciated freeze dried roll \( tm \) actual taste sensation like nothing ever willingly experience amazing thing ate second one , third doubt actually flew missions , i'm certain bad things gastrointestinal tract compared space food sticks , tang contribution mankind dillon pyron opinions expressed ti dseg lewisville vax support sender unless otherwise stated \( 214 \) 462 3556 \( i'm \) \( 214 \) 492 4656 \( i'm home \) god gave us weather would n't complain pyron skndiv dseg ti com things padi dm 54909 ps n't think tang flew , either although developed contract
mccall mksol dseg ti com \( fred j mccall 575 3539 \) subject pushing envelope organization texas instruments inc distribution na lines 35 1993apr3 princeton edu princeton edu \( elijah \) writes friend mine wondering expression pushing envelope comes anyone know \? every aircraft flight constraints speed aoa power , define aircraft , presumably named line \( envelopes \) area graph represents conditions aircraft n't fall sky hence , becomes \( beyond \) edge flight \( operational \) note envelope n't precisely known someone actually flies airplane regions point , theoretical predictions hence , one things test pilots living find close correspondence paper airplane metal one essence , edges theoretical envelope airplane actually starts fail fly note , , done quite calculated careful way flight tests generally carefully going far precisely planned \( despite occasional deviations plans , first flight f 16 high speed taxi tests \) i'm sure mary tell everything ever wanted know process \( \) insisting perfect safety people n't balls live real world mary shafer , nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com n't speak others n't speak
ml chiron astro uu se \( mats lindgren \) subject comet temporary orbit around jupiter \? organization uppsala university lines 14 distribution world nntp posting host chiron astro uu se comet p roman crockett also spent time temporary satellite jupiter years ago believe calculations , g , lindgren , , h \( astron astrophys , 239 , pp 375 380 , 1990 \) mats lindgren mats lindgren astro uu se astronomical observatory ml box 515 751 20 uppsala phone \( 46 \) \( 0 \) 18 51 35 22 sweden fax 52 75 83
cck coventry ac uk \( \) subject abyss breathing fluids nntp posting host cc sysk organization coventry university lines 31 article psuvm psu edu psuvm psu edu writes bit nervous posting begining stray topic space n't seem stop alot people \) talk breathing high pressures , began think movie abyss remember , movie one characters dove great depths wearing suit used fluid carries opposed sort gas heard mice breath fluid reason , humans unable anyone know details \? vaux believe reason lung diaphram gets tired pump liquid simply stops breathing 2 3 minutes vehicle ready go better put hold , else ! ! 's remember liquid several times dense gas nature 10 think , depending gas liquid comparision course !
glover casbah acns nwu edu \( eric glover \) subject ussr reached moon first \? nntp posting host acns nwu edu organization northwestern university , evanston illinois lines 45 article 1993apr06 zeus calpoly edu jgreen trumpet calpoly edu \( james thomas green \) writes suppose soviets managed get moon rocket working made first could beaten us either rocket n't blown pad thus setting back , saturn v went boom apollo fire harsh , saturn v explosion would soviets winning would crushing could technological turning point us turning us today 's anything , 're super power much reserved attitude like soviet program today kennedy gone 68 69 , war still east , think program would stalled badly goal moon 70 would dead nasa trying figure went wrong beaten us , speculate us would gone head done landings , also would determined set base \( earth orbit moon \) whether would mars would depend upon whether soviets tried go setting lunar base would stretched budgets nations think military value lunar base would outweigh value going mars \( least short run \) thus would concentrated moon saturn program would pushed 70s cost runs would evil nixon still wins shuttle never proposed skylab never built 73 program stalled yet fuel crisis string small launches mark mid seventies 76 goal us man moon dead us space program till present day \( james green \) \( jgreen oboe calpoly edu \) believe nation commit achieving goal , decade , landing man moon returning safely earth john f kennedy may 25 , 1961
prb access digex com \( pat \) subject abyss breathing fluids article access organization express access online communications usa lines 19 nntp posting host access digex net article 498 cck coventry ac uk cck coventry ac uk \( \) writes believe reason lung diaphram gets tired pump liquid simply stops breathing 2 3 minutes vehicle ready go better put hold , else ! ! 's remember liquid several times dense gas nature 10 think , depending gas liquid comparision course ! could use sort mechanical chest compression aid sorta like portable iron lung \? put sort flex tubing around chest compress push enough chest wall support breathing \? \? \? \? \? 'd trust , space , trust suit anyway pat
clarke acme ucf edu \( thomas clarke \) subject pushing envelope organization university central florida distribution na lines 18 1993apr3 princeton edu princeton edu \( elijah \) writes friend mine wondering expression pushing envelope comes anyone know \? defining envelope world envelope chosen , rather say shell , boundary analogy envelopes perhaps \? actually , shell might good push shell hard \( aircraft \? \) breaks thomas clarke institute simulation training , university central fl research parkway , suite 300 , orlando , fl \( 407 \) 658 , fax \( 407 \) 658 , clarke acme ucf edu
thomsonal cpva saic com subject cosmos 2238 article cpva organization science applications int'l corp san diego lines 48 date tue , 6 apr 1993 15 40 47 gmt need much information cosmos 2238 rocket fragment \( 1993 \) possible purpose , launch date , location , short , everything ! help \? tony ryan , astronomy space , new international magazine , available ocean reconnaissance launch surprises west space news , april 5 11 , 1993 , p 2 excerpts russia launched first ocean reconnaissance satellite 26 months march 30 , confounding western analysts proclaimed program dead itar tass news agency announced launch cosmos 2238 , provided little description payload 's mission however , based satellite 's trajectory , western observers identified military spacecraft designed monitor electronic emissions foreign naval ships order track movement geoff perry kettering group england said western observers concluded would launched days last satellite entered earth 's atmosphere , cosmos 2238 launched cosmos 2238 satellite launched defense ministry moscow itar tass world service russian 1238 gmt 30 march 1993 translated 93 060 , p 27 itar tass correspondent moscow , 30 march cosmos 2238 satellite launched 1600 moscow time today carrier rocket itar tass correspondent told press center russia 's space military forces satellite launched interests russian defense ministry parameters given moscow itar tass world service russian gmt 31 march 1993 translated 93 060 , p 27 moscow , 31 march another artificial earth satellite , cosmos 2238 , launched 30 march satellite carries scientific apparatus continuing space research satellite placed orbit following parameters initial period revolution 92 8 minutes apogee 443 km 413 km orbital inclination 65 degrees besides scientific apparatus satellite carries radio system precise measurement orbital elements system transmitting earth data work instruments scientific apparatus apparatus aboard satellite working normally
games max u washington edu subject aerospace companies cooperate reusable vehicle market article max 1993apr6 1 distribution world lines 34 nntp posting host max u washington edu would net land think big 6 \( martin , boeing , douglas , general dynamics , lockheed , rockwell \) getting together , forming consortium study exactly market price building reusable launch vehicles , spending say recognizing military requirements launch vehicles pulled hat somewhere \( say , shuttle ever really used capability \? get idea , figure many , often , , etc \) taking data , forming type company \( bad example , know least example \) develop 3 5 craft designs take designs , figure exactly technologies , demonstrate technologies , order eliminate designs ca n't built today lets say portion funded gov cost 20 million companies went separate ways , intention taking market data design data wall street , saying want build vehicle , numbers show 20 roi , fund \) many think joke , good authority project shaping background seems aerospace companies learned everyone yelling similar different things ends many programs nothing much get canceled \( nasp , nls , als , \? , etc \) need work , european spirit initial cooperation also learned design requirements phony \( e generals idea space vehicle ought \) ends getting chopped congress , real requirement feedback \? john
games max u washington edu subject ssto \( aide \) recollections article max 1993apr6 1 distribution world lines 78 nntp posting host max u washington edu following thoughts meeting , hugh kelso , bob lilly aide sen patty discuss ssto , commercial space went receiving packet containing presentation ssto , called tried schedule meeting local senator \( \) patty murray , washington state started asking hour , heard gasp end phone , quickly backed 1 2 hour later conversation , learned standard appointment 15 minutes got standard bozo treatment , called back aide , scheduled meeting us , order determine bozos , familiarize material , screen , make sure appropriate take senators time material well , got allocated 1 2 hour sen aide , ended talking 45 minutes , us ending meeting , still listening covered lot ground , little tiny bit dcx specific single stage reusable vehicle primer another woman took quantities notes every topic brought , murray new , wanted non corporate aligned \( e speaking boeing \) local citizens space , spent lot time covering lower cost access leo solar power satellites big focus , hit becoming feasible lower cost access , hit environmental stand hit tourism angle , left copy collins tourism paper , side notes everyone goes space , sees atmosphere becomes , esp seeing smog l hit studying bone \( pronounced space , said potential lead understanding , maybe cure hit education whereby kids get space , get older find havent hop hell actually getting , go fields , low cost orbit , chances might get someday would provide greater incentive hit harder classes needed hit little get nasa operational launch vehicle business angle hit lower cost satellite launches , gps navigation , personal , , new services , etc jobs provided sectors jobs provided building thing , balance trade improvement , etc mentioned would lower launch costs left paper technologies needed invested order make even easier asked questions point ended telling wanted aware efforts proceeding area , want make sure results efforts lost \( much like condor , \) , importantly , asked help fund efforts along lines lowering cost leo middle also gave little lunar resource data purchase act , guy filed separately , interested asked questions , seemed like wanted jump , contact people involved , something may actually happen last two things make sure knew knew lot people space arena town , could feel free call us time questions , n't know answers , would see questions got people really know answers finally , asked appointment senator said would get list , also said knowing , would something would interested , although time problem getting scheduled , since state 1 week 6 days felt like pretty good job john
subject space research spin shafer rigel dfrf nasa gov \( mary shafer \) 1993apr2 1 aurora alaska edu access digex net shafer ra dfrf nasa gov pgf srl03 cacs usl edu organization nasa dryden , edwards , cal reply pgf srl03 cacs usl edu 's message tue , 6 apr 1993 02 19 59 gmt lines 64 tue , 6 apr 1993 02 19 59 gmt , pgf srl03 cacs usl edu \( phil g fraering \) said phil shafer rigel dfrf nasa gov \( mary shafer \) writes 4 apr 1993 20 31 10 0400 , prb access digex com \( pat \) said pat article 1993apr2 1 aurora alaska edu pat nsmca aurora alaska edu writes question someone give 10 examples direct nasa space related research helped humanity general \? interesting see pat tang \) mylar think think also pushed hi tech pat composites look fly wire swept wings fly airliners 've reaped benefits phil n't one early jet fighters \? also think phil germans work wwii came world war ii nasa directly descended , space added 'll notice n't mention sweep wings even though x 5 , tested 's dryden , steal one germans difference swept wings n't change angle sweep , sweep wings perhaps similarity names caused confusion \? swept wings , f sweep wings area ruling digital fly wire ride smoothing phil lot also done military nasa proposed nasa test teams demonstrated richard r jones , langley research center , giants field dryden involved flight testing area ruling \( 70s 50s , respectively \) 's true used military aircraft testbeds \( kc 135 yf 102 \) availability need military involvement yf 102 completely kc 135 us air force , course , interested results supportive efforts dryden flew first digital fly wire aircraft 70s analog backup , show confident general dynamics decided make f 16 flyby wire saw successful \( mind , arrow x 15 fly wire aircraft much earlier , analog \) phil ! i'm disagreeing mary shafer ! nasa habit acquiring second hand military aircraft using testbeds make things kind confusing hand , second hand navy planes give test pilots chance fold wings something pilots edwards air force base ca n't mary shafer dod 0362 kotfr nasa dryden flight research facility , edwards , ca shafer rigel dfrf nasa gov course n't speak nasa mig six better mig unknown us fighter pilot
adam sw stratus com \( mark adam \) subject space food sticks organization stratus computer , inc lines 22 distribution world nntp posting host sw stratus com keywords food article agate berkeley edu , ghelf violet berkeley edu \( \) writes taste hard describe , although remember fondly certainly candy say modern power bar sort injected vitamins chocolate power bar rough approximation taste strawberry sucked peanut butter definitely favorite n't think ever took second bite strawberry recently joined system fudge bar chocolate space food thing find even comes close taste takes back taste buds happy intestines knots joy ! mark \( adam sw stratus com \) opinions stratus hell ! don`t even agree ! logic pretty flowers smell bad
prb access digex com \( pat \) subject comet temporary orbit around jupiter \? organization express access online communications usa lines 23 distribution world nntp posting host access digex net article kelvin jpl nasa gov baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov \( ron baalke \) writes comet gehrels 3 , discovered 1977 , determined temporary jovian orbit 1970 1973 comet shoemaker levy 1993e may remain orbit around jupiter long enough allow galileo make closeup observations orbital trajectory comet shoemaker levy still determined positional uncertainties l 1993e \? assume know galileo within meters without hga , n't pretty good ideas , look imaging \? hga working , could slew around near real time \( less speed light delay \) imaging \? \? \? \? n't someone get lucky guess find first images \? also , imagine l 1993e mostly visual image affect imaging missions lga , real tight allocation bandwidth may premature hope answers , thought 'd throw floor pat
prb access digex com \( pat \) subject plutonium based nuclear power plants organization express access online communications usa lines 13 nntp posting host access digex net todays new york times wrote pact negotiated us russians develope high temperature gas cooled fission reactors using cycled weapons grade plutonium warhead fuel ceramic safety , depletion sufficiently contaminated products make extraction remaining plutonium hazardous enough deter use apparently project led general san diego funding us government pilot plant built operated russians pat
stsci edu subject vulcan \? \( , guy ears ! \) distribution na organization space telescope science institute lines 42 article inqmind bison mb ca , victor inqmind bison mb ca \( victor laking \) writes anyone info apparent sightings vulcan \? know apparently two sightings drastically different times small planet inside mercury 's orbit beyond , info sightings apparently spurious planet inside orbit mercury idea vulcan came differences mercury 's observed perihelion precession value according newtonian physics made extensive set observations calculations mid 19th century , simon later improved observations calculated using 's system equations one co neptune since predicted existence based orbit uranus inclination believe sort thing mercury alas , mercury 's perihelion rate space resides near sun significantly curved due sun 's mass explanation wait 1915 albert einstein 's synthesis earlier theory moving bodies \( commonly called special relativity \) geometry result general theory relativity , one 's noteworthy strengths accounts precession mercury 's perihelion almost exactly \( exactly use newcomb 's numbers rather 's \) course everybody believes einstein , 's fine subsequent efforts find planets closer sun mercury using radar fruitless bill forgive , barbarian , thinks customs tribe laws universe g j caesar opinions nothing post constitutes official statement person organization
prb access digex com \( pat \) subject nuclear waste organization express access online communications usa lines 45 nntp posting host access digex net article 1993apr6 mksol dseg ti com mccall mksol dseg ti com \( fred j mccall 575 3539 \) writes 1993apr2 2521 cs rochester edu dietz cs rochester edu \( paul dietz \) writes paul , quite frankly 'll believe really going work typical trash one needs process see put couple tons one end get \( relatively \) clean material end , plus able run residual power sounds almost like perpetual motion , n't \? believe process comes even close approaching technological economic feasibility \( given mixed nature trash run opposed costs separating things first different \) see dump tons one end pull \( relatively \) clean material costs , technological risks , etc , taken account still class one idea throwing waste sun sure , 's possible physics well understood , really reasonable approach \? ever going shelf technology someone n't \? maybe part ssf design goals \) gee fred bitter defense 20 khz power basic technology ssf , id think would support minor research program like anyone knows particle physics , know could prove technology \? real reason accelerator breeders built n't reason natural uranium still cheap , geological disposal looks technically reasonable may also help political gridlock entire nuclear technical agenda big political fast breeder technologies fought death courts even could make nuclear , really think even deaf smith county nevada would accept \? rules nuclear power concerns medical community able nuclear technology opposition
prb access digex com \( pat \) subject space research spin organization express access online communications usa lines 29 nntp posting host access digex net article shafer rigel dfrf nasa gov shafer rigel dfrf nasa gov \( mary shafer \) writes dryden flew first digital fly wire aircraft 70s analog backup , show confident confident , merely crazed \? desert sun \) successful \( mind , arrow x 15 fly wire aircraft much earlier , analog \) gee , thought x 15 cable controlled n't one total electrical failure flight \? backup systems \? nasa habit acquiring second hand military aircraft using testbeds make things kind confusing hand , second hand navy planes give test pilots chance fold wings something pilots edwards air force base ca n't mean \? overstress wings , fail teh joints \? 'll enlighten us hinterlands pat
prb access digex com \( pat \) subject space food sticks organization express access online communications usa lines 9 nntp posting host access digex net keywords food dillon comments space food sticks may bad digestive properties n't think think nasa food products designed low fiber products minimize difficulties waste disposal 'd doubt 'd deploy anything caused whole sale gi distress n't enough plastic world bad case gi disease pat
prb access digex com \( pat \) subject area rule organization express access online communications usa lines 20 distribution sci nntp posting host access digex net sure mary henry describe aptly understand speed , near supersonic wind behaves like fluid pipe becomes wind bend away wing edges wing , pipes bend place go , begin stall , force compression , stealing power vehicle \( high drag \) squeeze fuselage , pipes bend , drag reduced essentially , teh cross sectional area aircraft remain constant areas fuselage wings subtract , teh cross sectional area wings fuselage pat
mccall mksol dseg ti com \( fred j mccall 575 3539 \) subject dc x vehicle flight test organization texas instruments inc lines 14 1993apr5 1 aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes since dc x take horizontal , land way \? \? martian landing thing missing something n't know much dc x \( overly obvious \? \) missed something think takes vertically intended land way insisting perfect safety people n't balls live real world mary shafer , nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com n't speak others n't speak
mccall mksol dseg ti com \( fred j mccall 575 3539 \) subject alaska pipeline space station ! organization texas instruments inc lines 45 access digex net prb access digex com \( pat \) writes article 1993apr5 7592 mksol dseg ti com mccall mksol dseg ti com \( fred j mccall 575 3539 \) writes think would great way build , unfortunately current spending rules n't permit workable work would necessary government guarantee certain minimum amount business order sufficiently reduce risk enough make attractive private firm since generally ca n't allocate money except one year time , government ca n't provide tenant guarantee fred try reading bit government lots multi year contracts penalty cancellation clauses like damn sure know sign multi year contract reason n't cutting defense spending much would like reagan administration signed enough multi year contracts , 's cheaper finish n't try reading bit , pat work government contractor know rules like yes , sign \( damned everyone always go washington see next week 's funding \) multi year contracts also n't willing include sufficient cancellation penalties decide cut multi year contract pay \( happen arbitrarily time , matter previous plans \) make risk acceptable something like putting private space station government expected prime occupant 'd like source statement reason n't cutting defense spending much would like n't buy thing find bit posting , pat , several people answered question pretty much way mine one comment \( incorrectly , think \) think says lot tommy move together insisting perfect safety people n't balls live real world mary shafer , nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com n't speak others n't speak
baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov \( ron baalke \) subject comet temporary orbit around jupiter \? organization jet propulsion laboratory lines 30 distribution world nntp posting host kelvin jpl nasa gov news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article access digex net , prb access digex com \( pat \) writes article kelvin jpl nasa gov baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov \( ron baalke \) writes comet gehrels 3 , discovered 1977 , determined temporary jovian orbit 1970 1973 comet shoemaker levy 1993e may remain orbit around jupiter long enough allow galileo make closeup observations orbital trajectory comet shoemaker levy still determined positional uncertainties l 1993e \? comet shoemaker levy 1993e jovian orbit , comet still hanging around galileo arrives , i'm sure added list targets 'll two years earth based observations help narrow positions pieces comet probably wo n't much different done gaspra imaging \? galileo image came earth based radar ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab \) 525 3684 telos cynical never helps pasadena , ca 91109 correct situation causes aggravation instead
matthew phantom gatech edu \( matthew deluca \) subject nuclear waste organization dorsai grey captains lines 15 nntp posting host oit gatech edu article 844 rins ryukoku ac jp rins ryukoku ac jp \( william reiken \) writes ok , creation oil producing bacteria \? figure make eat make shit comments \? sure keep using oil \? hydrogen electric economy would likely cleaner efficient long run laws supply demand get transition underway reach critical stage shortage matthew deluca georgia institute technology , atlanta georgia , 30332 uucp ! decvax , hplabs , ncar , purdue , rutgers ! gatech ! prism ! matthew internet matthew phantom gatech edu
dbm0000 tm0006 lerc nasa gov \( david b mckissock \) subject gibbons outlines ssf redesign guidance news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host tm0006 lerc nasa gov organization nasa lewis research center cleveland , ohio lines 76 nasa headquarters distributed following press release today \( 4 6 \) 've typed verbatim , folks chew many topics recently discussed sci space covered gibbons outlines space station redesign guidance dr john h gibbons , director , office science technology policy , outlined members designate advisory committee redesign space station april 3 , three budget options guidance committee deliberations redesign space station low option 5 billion , mid range option 7 billion high option 9 billion considered committee option would cover total expenditures space station fiscal year 1994 1998 would include funds development , operations , utilization , shuttle integration , facilities , research operations support , transition cost also must include adequate program reserves insure program implementation within available funds next 5 years , 4 billion reserved within nasa budget president 's new technology investment result , station options 7 billion must accompanied reductions rest nasa budget example , space station option 9 billion would require 2 billion offsets nasa budget next 5 years gibbons presented information organizational session advisory committee generally , members designate focused upon administrative topics used session get acquainted also received legal ethics briefing orientation process station redesign team following develop options advisory committee consider gibbons also announced united states international partners europeans , japanese , canadians decided , consultation , give full consideration use russian assets course space station redesign process end , russians asked participate redesign effort needed consulting basis , redesign team make use expertise assessing capabilities mir possible use mir russian capabilities systems u international partners hope benefit expertise russian participants assessing russian systems technology overall goal redesign effort develop options reducing station costs preserving key research exploration capabilities careful integration russian assets could key factor achieving goal gibbons reiterated , president clinton committed redesigned space station making every effort preserve science , technology jobs space station program represents however , also committed space station well managed one consume national resources used invest future industry nation nasa administrator daniel goldin said russian participation accomplished east west space science center university maryland leadership
shafer rigel dfrf nasa gov \( mary shafer \) subject space research spin reply prb access digex com 's message 6 apr 1993 14 06 57 0400 organization nasa dryden , edwards , cal pgf srl03 cacs usl edu shafer rigel dfrf nasa gov so4 access digex net lines 38 6 apr 1993 14 06 57 0400 , prb access digex com \( pat \) said pat article shafer rigel dfrf nasa gov pat shafer rigel dfrf nasa gov \( mary shafer \) writes successful \( mind , arrow x 15 fly wire aircraft much earlier , analog \) pat gee , thought x 15 cable controlled n't one pat total electrical failure flight \? pat backup systems \? reaction controlled aircraft fly wire , least rcs part x 15 aerodynamic control surfaces \( elevator , , etc \) controlled \( pushrods cables \) rcs jets fly wire nasa habit acquiring second hand military aircraft using testbeds make things kind confusing hand , second hand navy planes give test pilots chance fold wings something pilots edwards air force base ca n't pat mean \? overstress wings , fail teh pat joints \? navy aircraft folding sweeping wings , order save space hangar deck f 14 wings sweep , rest fold joint air force planes n't folding wings , since air force lots room mary shafer dod 0362 kotfr nasa dryden flight research facility , edwards , ca shafer rigel dfrf nasa gov course n't speak nasa mig six better mig unknown us fighter pilot
dragon access digex com \( covert c beach \) subject mars observer update 03 29 93 organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 33 distribution world nntp posting host access digex net keywords mars observer , jpl article access digex com prb access digex com \( pat \) writes n't always kicker seem stupid drop mission like magellan , n't 70 million year keep mission 'd think ongoing science could justify money jpl gets accused spending neccessary , probably validity , nasa put money things really oh well attended goddard last fall head operations section nasa talking future missions going funded n't remember name title hand discarded announcement case , asked matter ca n't spend million keep instruments already place going \? responce many available lead time instrument like cobe , magellan , hubble , etc 5 10 years spent could spent using current instruments current budget enviroment would little nothing future projects , sure short run science would wonderful would popular , however starting years retired would become one greatest ever seen space community funding early stages next generation instruments 's funding choices , owed whoever would eventually keep developing new missions , even expense cutting instruments last drop possible science covert c beach dragon access digex com
18084tm msu edu \( tom \) subject economics x added forwarded space digest organization via international space university original sender isu vacation venari cs cmu edu distribution sci lines 14 world laid end end 1 would point different directions 2 would n't reach conclusion 3 would good idea leave tommy mac tom mcwilliams 517 355 2178 wk radius vision increases , 18084tm ibm cl msu edu 336 9591 hm circumference mystery grows
dbm0000 tm0006 lerc nasa gov \( david b mckissock \) subject washington post article ssf redesign news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host tm0006 lerc nasa gov organization nasa lewis research center cleveland , ohio lines 52 space station redesign leader says cost goal may impossible today \( 4 6 \) washington post ran article headline shown article starts leader nasa team charge planned space station said yesterday job tough may impossible o'connor quoted saying whether possible cut costs much still provide meaningful research real question o'connor said everything fair game , including dropping existing contracts aerospace industry , chopping management space station program nasa facilities around country , working closely russian space station mir , using unmanned titan rockets supplement manned space shuttle fleet o'connor says team reviewed 30 design options far , sorting serious candidates three categories based cost post says o'connor described design derived current ssf high cost option \( believe kathy sawyer , post writer , got confused listened part o'connor 's briefing press monday , one part briefing o'connor talked white house wants three options , sorted cost low , medium , high another part briefing , discussed three teams formed look three options ssf derivative larc , modular buildup bus 1 msfc , single launch core wingless orbiter jsc later , response reporters question , thought heard o'connor say option based ssf redesign moderate cost option , low high cost options high cost option sawyer wrote \) article goes describe two options one features modules could gradually fitted together orbit , similar russian mir core facility could deposited orbit single launch , like skylab option would use existing hardware space shuttle fuselage , example , basic structure last sentence article contradicts title first paragraph sentence reads o'connor said streamlined version planned space station freedom still possible within administration 's budget guidelines
dbm0000 tm0006 lerc nasa gov \( david b mckissock \) subject blue ribbon panel members named news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host tm0006 lerc nasa gov organization nasa lewis research center cleveland , ohio lines 71 following press release distributed april 1 nasa headquarters space station redesign advisory members named along dr charles vest , recently named vice president albert gore head advisory committee redesign space station , nasa announced names representatives government industry academic experts across country participate independent review redesign options developed nasa extremely honored selected lead important review panel america 's future science technology world leader space demands utmost attention care , said vest assembled diverse panel experts , believe , bring appropriate measures insight , integrity objectivity critical task advisory committee charged independently assessing various redesign options space station presented nasa 's redesign team , proposing recommendations improve efficiency effectiveness space station program space station international partners also asked participate named later date advisory committee submit recommendations june advisory committee members named today include dr charles vest dr bobby alford president , mit executive vp dean medicine baylor college medicine mr jay dr paul chu president , associates director , texas center university houston dr ed dr john fabian prof aero astro president ceo mit maj gen james dr edward fort deputy chief staff chancellor requirements headquarters north carolina usaf materials command state university dr mary good mr frederick senior vp technology president , international technical allied signal , inc underwriters dr lou mr william lilly chair , space sciences national academy public board , national research administration council mr duane dr brad parkinson president systems technology prof astro aero stanford university dr robert dr lee silver former nasa deputy admin w keck foundation professor resource geology california institute technology dr albert bud retired ceo hughes aircraft
freed nss org \( bev freed \) subject faqs organization nss bbs , pittsburgh pa \( 412 \) 366 lines 8 wondering faq files could posted quarterly rather monthly every 28 30 days , get bloated feeling bev freed via fidonet node 1 129 104 uucp ! pitt ! nss ! freed internet freed nss org
sysmgr king eng umd edu \( doug mohney \) subject faqs article mojo reply sysmgr king eng umd edu organization computer aided design lab , u maryland college park lines 10 nntp posting host queen eng umd edu article nss org , freed nss org \( bev freed \) writes wondering faq files could posted quarterly rather monthly every 28 30 days , get bloated feeling stick 'em sci space news every 28 30 days \? software engineering \? 's like military intelligence , n't \? sysmgr cadlab eng umd edu
dietz cs rochester edu \( paul dietz \) subject nuclear waste organization university rochester article 844 rins ryukoku ac jp rins ryukoku ac jp \( william reiken \) writes ok , creation oil producing bacteria \? figure make eat make shit comments \? exist even varieties economical time , though paul f dietz dietz cs rochester edu
jaskew spam maths adelaide edu au \( joseph askew \) subject call space \( clueless \) organization statistics , pure applied mathematics , university adelaide lines 34 article access digex com prb access digex com \( pat \) writes japanese really going nukes , go better technology opposed really considered 3rd generation inherently safe designs japanese still learning curve far nuclear power goes means unlike germans \( great things \) japanese tie foreign companies major one mitsubishi \( else \) sharing agreement ge think chance new design sodium lots chemical problems really solves design difficulties inherently safe types sodium lots chemical problems like eats stainless steel slowly gets end call desired property design difficulties , sodium \? bitch chemical properties \( though \) means gets used two loops \? 's design problem \? isolation air water \? n't cause design problems \? comparison 's dream rides ! pwr 's work real good , need lots steel , highly complex systems simplicity virtue n't get none liquid sodium breeder ! steel , complexity joseph askew joseph askew , gauche proud autumn stillness , see pleiades , jaskew spam maths adelaide edu remote thorny deserts , fell grief disclaimer \? sue , see care north tents , sky must end somwhere , actually , rather like brenda beyond pale , river murmurs
jaskew spam maths adelaide edu au \( joseph askew \) subject call space \( clueless \) keywords trumpet calls , infrastructure , public perception organization statistics , pure applied mathematics , university adelaide lines 32 article access digex com prb access digex com \( pat \) writes article 1993mar31 mksol dseg ti com mccall mksol dseg ti com \( fred j mccall 575 3539 \) writes n't feasible japan try stockpile amount oil would need run industries use nuclear power course , given export 50 gnp , well n't export anywhere near 50 gnp mexico 's perhaps actually export around 9 10 mark similar developed countries actually australia exports larger share gnp united states \( 14 think hand always likely factor 12 though \) would immediately obvious thought anything serious enough disrupt sea lanes oil also hose export routes import routes count without exports could n't live without imports longer six months given import everything , oil one critical commodity true ! one unstable hence source serious worry joseph askew joseph askew , gauche proud autumn stillness , see pleiades , jaskew spam maths adelaide edu remote thorny deserts , fell grief disclaimer \? sue , see care north tents , sky must end somwhere , actually , rather like brenda beyond pale , river murmurs
jaskew spam maths adelaide edu au \( joseph askew \) subject small astronaut \( budget astronaut \) organization statistics , pure applied mathematics , university adelaide lines 25 article access digex com prb access digex com \( pat \) writes one problem sending corp small astronauts may want start galactic empire \) napoleon complex know khan little guy 'd bet julius caesar never broke 5'1 think would lose money julius actually rather tall roman go record small soldiers though thought tougher guts probably right think napoleon remember french 5 feet height relative ! really complex \? seen burning candle high school goes large hot body placed space atmosphere , exactly heat surroundings \? diffusion \? joseph askew joseph askew , gauche proud autumn stillness , see pleiades , jaskew spam maths adelaide edu remote thorny deserts , fell grief disclaimer \? sue , see care north tents , sky must end somwhere , actually , rather like brenda beyond pale , river murmurs
dbm0000 tm0006 lerc nasa gov \( david b mckissock \) subject nasa wraps news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host tm0006 lerc nasa gov organization nasa lewis research center cleveland , ohio lines 133 april edition one small step space activist , allen sherzer tim write another problem called \( sometimes 'center \) work large program like freedom shuttle performed nasa center , center portion goes amounts fund money used fund work center manager wants fund sum estimated third funds allocated think 30 billion cost freedom , fully 10 billion wo n't spent anything anything space stations ! , maybe 10 billion wisely spent \( maybe n't \) , work done stand merits , distorting cost projects congress idea wraps congress never heard term 'center look station getting price paying note n't add wonder unaware third money going something else dear friends , mixing fact fiction couple weeks ago , first read posting , talked one cost experts space station headquarters wondering n't post response immediately , real job i'm supposed headquarters , digging old 20 khz data looking sherzer claims rates pretty low totem pole priority also , spent last weekend kansas city , national science teachers association conference , extolling virtues ssf 15 , 000 science teachers first , yes , concept 'center , exist recall numbers correctly , total ssf program fiscal year around 40 million computed adding wp 1 , wp 2 , wp 4 center ssf budget fiscal year 2 2 billion , says tax percentage 04 2 2 1 8 life ssf program , using figure 30 billion cost ssf , tax 1 8 rate comes 540 million alot less 10 billion , concede 's still appreciable amount pocket change note estimate tax rate 1 3 could close actual rate tax charged funds spent center \( kind like mcdonalds states , pay sales tax eat food restaurant , n't get take \) example , wp 4 , vast bulk funds receive go rocketdyne contract , subject center tax \( n't numbers front , 'd guess least 95 wp 4 funds go rocketdyne \) , could right tax rate 1 3 , 's applied funds spent center , prime contracts leads obvious question government ssf funds n't go prime contractors \? \( e ok , wp 4 gets slice 30 billion pie big portion slice goes rocketdyne happens balance funds , n't eaten center tax \? \) wp 4 , call funds spend house supporting development funds \( supporting development work done rocketdyne \) used funds setup testbed , checkout electrical power system architecture testbed real life solar array field \( left solar cell research research years back \) , lead acid car batteries \( simulate nickel hydrogen batteries ssf \) , dc , dc dc converter units , simulated loads data testbed used recent change evaluation involving concerns stability power system also used supporting development money purchase nickel hydrogen batteries , life testing lewis crane naval facility indiana side point , 6 battery cells test recently hit four year life test 38 cells completed 18 , 552 23 , 405 cycles \( orbit batteries go 5 , 840 cycles per year \) final example , division lewis used supporting development funds purchase personal computers work stations , performing system analyses \( like modeling performance electrical power system , availability calculations using monte carlo simulation , setting database information weight power system elements \) finally , money raised go fund ' lewis , director control small discretionary fund year , individual lewis submit proposal director get money fund look pretty much anything within lewis charter tax , however , goes fund services center , like library , central computer services division , contractor removes snow , etc thus , rather difficult determine percentage ssf budget n't go ssf activities get accurate figure , would take annual expenditure library \( example \) , divide amount library funds used support ssf \( would hard compute would figure percentage bill aviation week 1 year ssf , would base person hours ssf employees spend reading av week versus rest center personnel \) would compare estimate ssf portion library expense portion tax goes support library knows , maybe ssf tax run library , snow removal \? talk nightmare ! last point ca n't believe claim congress never heard term 'center tax ' unfortunately , nasa testimony congress n't computer , ca n't simple word search someplace prove wrong surely , gao audit somewhere , nasa cost methods documented congress \?
buenneke monty rand org \( richard buenneke \) subject dc x rollout report x added forwarded space digest organization via international space university original sender isu vacation venari cs cmu edu distribution sci lines 124 mcdonnell douglas rolls dc x huntington beach , calif picture perfect southern california day , mcdonnell douglas rolled dc x rocket ship last saturday company hopes single stage rocket technology demonstrator first step towards single stage orbit \( ssto \) rocket ship white vehicle scheduled go white sands missile range new mexico week flight tests start mid june although n't cloud sky , forecast ssto research remains cloudy sdi organization paid 60 million dc x ca n't afford fund full development follow vehicle get necessary hundreds millions required sub orbital dc xa , sdio passing tin cup among sister government agencies sdio originally funded ssto research way cut costs orbital space based sensors however , recent changes sdi 's political marching orders budget cuts made ssto less priority today , agency interested using dc x step towards low cost , reusable sounding rocket sdio already done 50 briefings government agencies , said col simon pete worden , sdio 's deputy technology worden declined say much agencies would pony program n't make colonel telling contractors much money available spend , press conference mcdonnell douglas astronautics headquarters sdio lowered program 's orbital objective , agency officials hail dc x example better , faster , cheaper approach hardware development agency believes philosophy produce breakthroughs ahead evolutionary technology developments worden said dc x illustrates build little , test little approach produce results time within budget said program went concept hardware around 18 months showed today 's engineers could move beyond miracles parents' time key management , worden said sdio light hand project one overworked major , although next phase may involve agencies , worden said lean management sense government industry partnership crucial 's essential end large management structure price goes exponentially sdio 's approach also praise two california members house science , space technology committee direction 're going go , said rep george brown , committee 's democratic chairman programs stretch 10 15 years n't sustainable nasa n't learned yet sdio rep dana , brown 's republican colleague , went joking fish designed nasa design team , doubted program ever would completed left civil space agency , whose orange county district includes mcdonnell douglas , also criticized nasa air force work conventional , multi staged rockets placing new around old missile technology let 's build fancy ammunition capsules top let 's build spaceship ! although praised sdio 's sponsorship , said private sector needs take lead developing ssto technology mcdonnell douglas , faces uncertain prospects c 17 transport space station freedom programs , cautious large private commitment large ventures , companies put seed money , said charles , mcdonnell senior vice president space systems need strong government investments government industry continue differ funding dc xa , agree continuing incremental approach development citing corporate history , liken process douglas aircraft 's dc aircraft two earlier aircraft paved way dc 3 transport , gradual evolution single stage rocketry could eventually lead orbital delta clipper \( dc 1 \) flight tests summer white sands expand envelope performance , successive tests increasing speed altitude first tests reach 600 feet demonstrate , take landing second series send unmanned dc x 5 , 000 feet third final series take craft 20 , 000 feet maneuvers become complex third phase final tests include pitch rotates vehicle back bottom configuration soft , four legged landing flight test series supervised charles pete conrad , performed similar maneuvers apollo 12 moon landing mcdonnell douglas vice president , conrad vehicles aircraft like approach operations features include automated check access panels easy program moves next stage , engine technology become key consideration engine would thrust pratt whitney 5 engines used dc x motor uses liquid hydrogen liquid oxygen propellants generate 14 , 760 pounds thrust based engine used centaur upper stages , 5 model thrust designed sea level operation three capability also designed repeat firings rapid turnaround worden said future single stage rockets could employ tri propellant engine technology developed former soviet union resulting engines could burn dense fuel takeoff switch liquid hydrogen higher altitudes mechanism may already place pratt technology agreement npo , design bureau responsible tri propellant energia engines
pyron skndiv dseg ti com \( dillon pyron \) subject space research spin lines 24 nntp posting host skndiv dseg ti com reply pyron skndiv dseg ti com organization ti dseg vax support article so4 access digex net , prb access digex com \( pat \) writes nasa habit acquiring second hand military aircraft using testbeds make things kind confusing hand , second hand navy planes give test pilots chance fold wings something pilots edwards air force base ca n't mean \? overstress wings , fail teh joints \? 'll enlighten us hinterlands , fold dotted line look pictures carriers loads c deck , wings neatly folded dillon pyron opinions expressed ti dseg lewisville vax support sender unless otherwise stated \( 214 \) 462 3556 \( i'm \) \( 214 \) 492 4656 \( i'm home \) god gave us weather would n't complain pyron skndiv dseg ti com things padi dm 54909
mccall mksol dseg ti com \( fred j mccall 575 3539 \) subject nuclear waste organization texas instruments inc lines 34 access digex net prb access digex com \( pat \) writes issue nuclear wastes using particle beams ever going shelf technology someone n't \? maybe part ssf design goals \) gee fred bitter defense 20 khz power basic technology ssf , id think would support minor research program like sometimes wonder newsfeed gives different articles everyone else , pat corrections 1 \) never 20khz power , something reasonable go look 2 \) also never opposed research project feasibility reactor approach nuclear waste simply doubt could made work real world \( tm \) , ought become clear fairly quickly research program feasibility \( sort like happened 20 khz power proved side expensive overcome \) figure 2 things wrong single sentence high enough fault density even , pat insisting perfect safety people n't balls live real world mary shafer , nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com n't speak others n't speak
c egalon larc nasa gov \( claudio oliveira egalon \) subject pushing envelope article rave reply c egalon larc nasa gov \( claudio oliveira egalon \) distribution world organization nasa langley research center , hampton , va usa lines 11 nntp posting host tahiti larc nasa gov flight tests generally carefully going far precisely planned \( despite occasional deviations plans , first flight f 16 high speed taxi tests \) chuck earlier flights x 1 c egalon larc nasa gov
ralph buttigieg z3 fido zeta org au \( ralph buttigieg \) subject commercial point view organization fidonet gate admin fido socs uts edu au lines 29 original szabo techbook com g 'day szabo techbook com 29 mar 93 07 28 , szabo techbook com wrote sc szabo techbook com \( nick szabo \) , via kralizec 3 713 602 sc longer term markets consider terrestrial illumination orbiting mirrors world enviroment disaster system \( japanese already developed plan , called \) although may public good space tourism energy relay satellites ta ralph golded 2 41 origin world sydney australia \( 02 \) 635 3 713 6 \( 3 713 635 \)
bobc sed stel com \( bob combs \) subject blow space station , easy way organization sed , stanford telecom , reston , va lines 16 article 1993apr5 1 aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes might real wierd idea maybe musta space station difficult \? \? must \? confined earth based ideas , lets think new ideas , space earth , limited earth based ideas \? \? choose following answer 1 politics 2 traditions 3 congress 4
buenneke monty rand org \( richard buenneke \) subject white house outlines options station , russian cooperation x added forwarded space digest organization via international space university original sender isu vacation venari cs cmu edu distribution sci lines 71 blind carbon copy rand org , cti rand org subject white house outlines options station , russian cooperation date tue , 06 apr 93 16 00 21 pdt richard buenneke buenneke rand org 4 06 93 gibbons outlines space station redesign guidance nasa headquarters , washington , c april 6 , 1993 release 93 64 dr john h gibbons , director , office science technology policy , outlined members designate advisory committee redesign space station april 3 , three budget options guidance committee deliberations redesign space station low option 5 billion , mid range option 7 billion high option 9 billion considered committee option would cover total expenditures space station fiscal year 1994 1998 would include funds development , operations , utilization , shuttle integration , facilities , research operations support , transition cost also must include adequate program reserves insure program implementation within available funds next 5 years , 4 billion reserved within nasa budget president 's new technology investment result , station options 7 billion must accompanied reductions rest nasa budget example , space station option 9 billion would require 2 billion offsets nasa budget next 5 years gibbons presented information organizational session advisory committee generally , members designate focused upon administrative topics used session get acquainted also received legal ethics briefing orientation process station redesign team following develop options advisory committee consider gibbons also announced united states international partners europeans , japanese canadians decided , consultation , give full consideration use russian assets course space station redesign process end , russians asked participate redesign effort needed consulting basis , redesign team make use expertise assessing capabilities mir possible use mir russian capabilities systems u international partners hope benefit expertise russian participants assessing russian systems technology overall goal redesign effort develop options reducing station costs preserving key research exploration careful integration russian assets could key factor achieving goal gibbons reiterated , president clinton committed redesigned space station making every effort preserve science , technology jobs space station program represents however , also committed space station well managed one consume national resources used invest future industry nation nasa administrator daniel goldin said russian participation accomplished east west space science center university maryland leadership end blind carbon copy
ra csc ti com \( doug page \) subject sr 71 propoganda films \? nntp posting host ra organization texas instruments distribution sci lines 28 article 1993apr5 sequent com , bigfoot sequent com \( gregory smith \) writes mccall mksol dseg ti com \( fred j mccall 575 3539 \) writes access digex net prb access digex com \( pat \) writes sr 71 stopped real secret mid 70 's friend high school poster 's picture known well built model sometime mid 60 's , yf 12a sr 71 model based yf 12a specs big radar nose 8 closed bays underside fuselage description , even , read speeds excess mach 3 altitudes exceeding 80 , 000 feet l b j publically announced existance program 1964 's also one sr 71 rs 71 lbj \( sic \) fwiw , doug page opinions mine \( maybe \) , n't necessarily represent employer
abdkw stdvax \( david ward \) subject questions titan iv ariane 5 distribution sci organization goddard space flight center robotics lab lines 26 news software vax vms vnews 1 4 b1 article news cso uiuc edu , uxa cso uiuc edu \( garret w \) writes sci space write try database gsfc ftp gsfc nasa gov 128 183 104 16 , call \( 310 \) 286 data sts , ariane , titan , atlas , delta scout launch environments howdy thanks info tried anonymous ftp , n't work also tried address , asked login password , although note saying new username anyways , idea else try \? thanks , garret home office number \( 301 \) 286 \( note area code change \) friend mine used use get data , apply login name password call info , hope get morning david w gsfc
ra csc ti com \( doug page \) subject quaint us nntp posting host ra organization texas instruments lines 41 article 1 cs cmu edu , nickh cs cmu edu \( nick haines \) writes article 1993apr2 ke4zv uucp gary ke4zv uucp \( gary coffman \) writes stuff deleted course units force names weight , order use need keep useful constants like omnipresent 32 \? \? \? \? ft sec 2 around maybe 'd like go system natural easy use , gary \? 're , figure us weight 17 barrels quart foo \( density 2 3 4 oz per cubic foot \) moon \( gravity 5 ft 7 3 32 sec 2 \) let 's face , even imperial system uses basically metric way relating quantities \( e would written 5 59 ft sec 2 \) thing 're hanging right express quantity inches , 144 25 feet , 48 yards 2 186 chains everyone else saying want \? apparent remaining complexity si system due fact 's going \( fundamental difference si imperial \) exactly one unit type , values type expressed multiple unit mean like seconds , minutes , hours , days , months , years \) remember , fahrenheit temperature scale also scale revisionists tell history something like point particular russian winter marked thermometer body temperature volunteer \( turns sick , ca n't win 'em \) space marks thermometer divided \) fwiw , doug page opinions mine \( maybe \) , necessarily represent employer \( sane person , matter \)
18084tm msu edu \( tom \) subject fred tom , ad x added forwarded space digest organization via international space university original sender isu vacation venari cs cmu edu distribution sci lines 189 nick sez i'm impressed old called prospecting work lpi , almost geared towards silly processes moon excuse put astronauts fred replies translation n't support nick szabo vision future must subscribe tom sez fred , 're supporting us thinks done , degree problem nick thinks done , address , instead complaining fred really n't get , \? incredibly clear explanation complaints something feelings regarding nick 's method , judgments meaning maybe 'd get said complaints , rather things mean complain trash people , supposed read people \? f gee , funny get , \? deliberate , perhaps \? fred 's issue 1 nick 's alleged trashing others got stopped trashing , made point patently , instead point along , fred thing net \( honestly reporting ideas matters policy projects space \) , response , even part debate yet see nick enter anything remotely resembling debate see flame anyone anything disagrees one true szabo plan see attacking people , calling lazy bastard disagree nick see questioning peoples ethics , disagree lord god szabo debate \? i'm glad laugh , since ratio debate insult even close , tommy , generally i'm dealing someone like nick see dealing problem conflict interpretations , least belief adequately judge debate suffice say disagree last point n't take poll , fred , want psuedo objective point view \? , usual , defend insults started yeah , took research called , started stole car , stole lawnmower first besides , think 's still open interpretation whether nick actually start defense , besides lame , contradicting first part sentence occurs , may even apply anyway defense reminds guy broke borrowed tool never borrowed , already gave back , broken gave make yer mind , fred ! i'm convinced people necessary parts every space based process , response n't tell thing reasons think , except motives person divergent opinion said think , tommy \? show note said 'll eat terminal see , fred fred , , since took issue fact conclusion incorrect , e taking issue something different , evidence communication style confusing evidence reading comprehension style inadequate first , try address think meant , rewarded denial sorts , smart remark , point clear mean , rather risking childish ire , wrongly interpreting second time , i'm stupid ca n't win , , fred \? 've got great point somewhere , 's stupid people must insult , jealous guarding valuable opinions , never actually get around making please quote took issue believe see \( look \) taking issue mr szabo 's idea manned program scrapped time toaster based infrastructure finished hail szabo plan ! fred issue 2 nick 's alleged meaning bad plan exists mind , instead nick 's , would really good point instead provided good reason ignore insults , since based incorrect interpretations made others forgive giving insults meaning ever reading nick actually said people n't required parts space processes , taking issue opinions regarding people space program , read people required parts space processes , help , , fred , since i'm patently stupid read nick wrong \? going eat terminal \? latter , sure hope 's one string models computer mags raving \) point , stupid incorrect assumption 'd stupid insulted made , alas , 's job , fred , finally , style confusing , since tried make two points , simultaneously , allegory insult sadly , one point addressed existed mind , took issue behaviors much anyone deliberate lack understanding , tommy \? , , finally got n't like plan nick 's posts made imagine n't like nick 's obnoxious behavior , even though 's worse thanks taking time someone dense problem nick 's delivery , address way bait , 're perpetuating lack discourse complain , tommy , response nick flame obnoxious fool n't really care started read list get information 's views issues dedicated , mom \( started ! , ! \) hear nick bad guy think flaming bad , stop flaming , least get point first post , instead explaining time 's nice , tommy pay post net complain getting money 's worth perhaps n't \( deliberately \? \) thick get point first time would n't waste time explaining time \? course , socrates could otherwise \? think 's neat criticism started admonitions things handled outside usenet somewhat little hypocritical , tommy \( go immaturity \) \? net ghod wannabe got turned someone thought new \( hence could tommy , saw come net \) cares came net first \? , consider saw come brief , 2 years seen net first , 'd remember nick went exactly road regarding rude , behavior 's amazing continue take issue behavior 's worse let 's see , complaints obnoxious behavior hypocritical , flames people decide n't , complaints name calling immature , name calling n't yeah , right maybe called names , might see better , fred net ghod wannabe \? naturally , fred , 've correctly interpreted motivations , impossible judge actions \( insulting people try , proves \) n't really care people fill net personal garbage , really wanted impress everyone put complaints behavior private mail , belongs , thought jerk 'd bring back net , playing right hands alas , idea intellectual master , turning tables bringing history posts net , noble valuable purpose embarassing whether feel stupid tried make suggestions superior intellect , becuase tried communicate like adult self righteous ass , still n't clear well , fred , exposed 'll never able get \( \) job nasa , since know i'm fred mccall well , hope 're happy please leave alone , n't heart attempt keeping one far maybe nick pat approach high standards , i'm dropping tommy mac tom mcwilliams 517 355 2178 wk radius vision increases , 18084tm ibm cl msu edu 336 9591 hm circumference mystery grows
steinly topaz ucsc edu \( steinn sigurdsson \) subject dc x rollout report article topaz steinly distribution sci organization lick observatory uco lines 29 nntp posting host topaz ucsc edu reply buenneke monty rand org 's message tue , 6 apr 1993 22 34 39 gmt article ftn 1 cs cmu edu buenneke monty rand org \( richard buenneke \) writes mcdonnell douglas rolls dc x ssto research remains cloudy sdi organization paid 60 million dc x ca n't afford fund full development follow vehicle get necessary hundreds millions required little peculiar way putting , sdio 's budget year , , 3 4 billion \? could fund dc development one years budget course fire \) launcher development primary purpose , dc development could easily paid diverting money diverting comparable sts ops budget oh , flames start applaud sdio funding dc x hope works , , , launcher development primary goal either , imho supposed provide enabling technology research others launcher development , operate launchers require 's steinn sigurdsson saw two shooting stars last night lick observatory wished satellites steinly lick ucsc edu wrong wish space hardware \? standard disclaimer wish , wish , wish 'd care b b 1983
c egalon larc nasa gov \( claudio oliveira egalon \) subject vulcan \? , spock organization nasa langley research center lines 16 distribution world reply c egalon larc nasa gov \( claudio oliveira egalon \) nntp posting host tahiti larc nasa gov another legend name vulcan planet , much like earth , orbit science fiction movie sometime ago \( remember name \) planet orbit earth hidden behind sun could never visible earth turns planet exact mirror image earth inhabitants looked like difference organs opposite side like heart right side instead left would shake hands left hand c egalon larc nasa gov c egalon larc nasa gov claudio oliveira egalon
tuinstra signal ece clarkson edu soe \( dwight tuinstra \) subject clementine name reply tuinstra signal ece clarkson edu soe organization sun microsystems , inc lines 21 nntp posting host signal ece clarkson edu article permanet org , mark prado p2 f349 n109 z1 permanet org \( mark prado \) writes please go one step word clementine associated mining \? could \( folk \? \) song clementine memory serves , part goes cavern , canyon , mine , miner , forty , daughter , clementine anyone watched hound sing chorus \) story real person behind song \? dwight tuinstra best tuinstra sandman ece clarkson edu tolerable tuinstrd craft camp clarkson edu homo sapiens planetary cancer \? \? news six
baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov \( ron baalke \) subject recent observations hubble organization jet propulsion laboratory lines 23 distribution world nntp posting host kelvin jpl nasa gov keywords hst , pluto , uranus news software vax vms vnews 1 41 recent observations taken hubble space telescope faint object \( \) used make ultraviolet observations planet pluto , moon charon successful observations executed scheduled , problems reported observations made using high speed photometer planet uranus faint star observations help understanding planet 's atmospheric processes event occurred close last quarter moon , special arrangements made modify lunar limit tests allow observations observations currently reviewed , observations looked okay ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab \) 525 3684 telos cynical never helps pasadena , ca 91109 correct situation causes aggravation instead
ebay sun com \( alan monday business group \) subject solar sail data organization sun microsystems , inc lines 14 distribution world reply ebay sun com nntp posting host ebay sun com hey ! \? happened solar sail race supposed columbus 500 \? article 29848 news duc auburn edu , snydefj eng auburn edu \( frank j snyder \) writes looking information concerning projects involving solar sails understand jpl extensive study subject back late 70 's trouble gathering information groups currently involved project \?
baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov \( ron baalke \) subject ozone gifs available organization jet propulsion laboratory lines 90 distribution world nntp posting host kelvin jpl nasa gov keywords ozone , uars , jpl news software vax vms vnews 1 41 ozone gif images april 15 , 1993 two gif images ozone maps northern southern hemispheres available jpl info public access site maps produced microwave limb sounder aboard upper atmosphere research satellite \( uars \) , courtesy public information office jpl note images gif89a format , make sure display software supports format \( opposed older format \) caption files accompanying images appended end message , well embedded images images available dialup modem 1 \( 818 \) 354 1333 , 9600 bps , parameters n 8 1 , using anonymous ftp ftp pubinfo jpl nasa gov \( 128 149 6 2 \) user anonymous cd news \( moved images directory 30 days \) files gif northern hemisphere gif southern hemisphere also , photographic prints images ordered newell color lab listed refer p number associated images ordering newell color lab 221 n avenue los angeles ca telephone \( 213 \) 380 fax \( 213 \) 739 gif public information office jet propulsion laboratory california institute technology national aeronautics space administration pasadena , calif 91109 telephone \( 818 \) 354 photo p april 14 , 1993 graphic chlorine monoxide ozone earth 's northern hemisphere february 1992 1993 maps produced microwave limb sounder aboard upper atmosphere research satellite chlorine monoxide \( \) maps \( left \) layer 20 kilometers \( 66 , 000 feet \) earth 's surface february 17 , 1992 \( \) 1993 \( \) ozone maps show total amount altitude 12 kilometers \( 41 , 000 feet \) averaged period february 15 march 6 two years microwave limb sounder , developed operated team nasa 's jet propulsion laboratory , one several instruments goddard space flight center 's upper atmosphere research satellite , launched september 1991 gif public information office jet propulsion laboratory california institute technology national aeronautics space administration pasadena , calif 91109 telephone \( 818 \) 354 photo caption p april 14 , 1993 graphic chlorine monoxide \( \) antarctic ozone hole maps , produced microwave limb sounder aboard upper atmosphere research satellite , show amount chlorine monoxide \( left \) ozone \( right \) stratosphere altitudes 20 kilometers \( 66 , 000 feet \) small ozone appear large chlorine monoxide , dominant form chlorine destroys ozone data september 21 , 1991 \( top \) compared september 20 , 1992 \( bottom \) microwave limb sounder , developed operated team nasa 's jet propulsion laboratory , one several instruments goddard space flight center 's upper atmosphere research satellite launched september 12 , 1991 ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab \) 525 3684 telos cynical never helps pasadena , ca 91109 correct situation causes aggravation instead
higgins fnalf fnal gov \( bill higgins beam jockey \) subject sixty two thousand \( many read sci space \? \) organization fermi national accelerator laboratory lines 67 nntp posting host fnalf fnal gov article 1993apr15 sol uvic ca , rborden ugly uvic ca \( ross borden \) writes article permanet org mark prado p2 f349 n109 z1 permanet org \( mark prado \) writes one could go , wonder many people read sci space power influence individuals \? quick ! everyone sees , post reply says hey , read sci space ! count , find many ! \) \( also help answer nagging question maximum bandwidth internet , anyways \? \) practical suggestion , sure , one could also peek news lists , brian reid posted usenet readership report mar 93 another posting called usenet readership summary report mar 93 gives methodology caveats reid 's survey \( postings failed appear wonder \? back \) reid , alas , gives us measure power influence readers sorry , mark suspect mark , dangling fidonet , may get news lists 've mailed copies reports bottom line \? estimated total number people read group , worldwide actual number readers sampled population propagation many sites receive group recent traffic \( messages per month \) recent traffic \( per month \) crossposting percentage cost ratio us month share read group v v v v v v v v 88 80 1958 9 19 0 10 2 9 sci space first figure indicates sci space ranks among read newsgroups 've keeping track watch growth traffic readership might entertained see oct 91 55 84 718 2 21 0 04 4 2 sci space mar 92 43 82 1207 2 13 0 06 4 1 sci space jul 92 48 94000 1550 80 3 12 0 04 3 8 sci space may 92 45 94000 82 834 8 13 0 04 4 1 sci space \( kind glitch estimating number readers happens \) sep 92 45 80 2 16 0 11 3 6 sci space nov 92 78 81 1220 2 17 0 08 2 8 sci space \( revision ranking groups happens \( \? \) \) mar 93 88 80 1958 9 19 0 10 2 9 sci space possibly old usenet hands could give background interpret figures , , history reid 's reporting effort take e mail n't belong sci space bill higgins , beam jockey valley fermi national accelerator laboratory doth bitnet higgins fnal bitnet grow roses internet higgins fnal fnal gov clementine span hepnet 43011 higgins
chris w johnson chrisj emx cc utexas edu subject new dc x gif organization university texas austin computation center lines 20 distribution world nntp posting host cc utexas edu x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d20 x xxmessage id cc utexas edu x xxdate thu , 15 apr 93 19 42 41 gmt article cohen q5022531 mdc com andy cohen , cohen ssdgwy mdc com writes uploaded gif bongo cc utexas edu chris johnson moves , 'll probably pub delta clipper thanks andy image pub delta clipper name changed dcx artists concept gif spirit \) chris chris w johnson internet chrisj emx cc utexas edu uucp uunet ! cs utexas edu ! ut emx ! chrisj compuserve internet chrisj emx cc utexas edu applelink chrisj emx cc utexas edu internet wishing delta clipper team success upcoming dc x flight tests
sysmgr king eng umd edu \( doug mohney \) subject many read sci space \? article mojo reply sysmgr king eng umd edu organization computer aided design lab , u maryland college park lines 15 nntp posting host queen eng umd edu article 1993apr15 mksol dseg ti com , pyron skndiv dseg ti com \( dillon pyron \) writes actually two us henry , fred , tommy mary oh yeah , n't real name , i'm bald headed space baby damn ! drinking beer robert parking lot k mart ! unlimited insemination message refused software engineering \? 's like military intelligence , n't \? sysmgr cadlab eng umd edu
sysmgr king eng umd edu \( doug mohney \) subject doppelganger \( vulcan \? , spock \) article mojo reply sysmgr king eng umd edu distribution world organization computer aided design lab , u maryland college park lines 17 nntp posting host queen eng umd edu article 1993apr15 1 fnalf fnal gov , higgins fnalf fnal gov \( bill higgins beam jockey \) writes known journey far side sun united states doppelganger u k later , went live action sf series ufo space 1999 astronomy lousy , lifting body spacecraft , airliners , mighty portugese launch complex wonderful look recycled lot models theme music ufo concepts even showed space 1999 software engineering \? 's like military intelligence , n't \? sysmgr cadlab eng umd edu
etrat ttacs1 ttu edu \( pack rat \) subject shuttle launch question x added forwarded space digest organization via international space university original sender isu vacation venari cs cmu edu distribution sci lines 16 something bothering watching nasa select well , say bothering , maybe wondering would better going launch say \( sorry forget exactly saying , otc think \) clear caution warning memory verify unexpected errors wondering expected error might sorry really dumb question , inquiring minds gotta know yeah , yeah , know , dumb cosmospheres ! randy , supervisor bitnet etrat academic computing facilities internet etrat ttu edu texas tech university etrat , tx \( 806 \) 742 fax \( 806 \) 742
higgins fnalf fnal gov \( bill higgins beam jockey \) subject get \? \( comet temporary orbit around jupiter \? organization fermi national accelerator laboratory lines 27 nntp posting host fnalf fnal gov article 1993apr15 stortek com , pg stortek com \( paul \) writes bill higgins beam jockey \( higgins fnalf fnal gov \) wrote 're , comet experts , explain comet gets jovian orbit begin ! non gravitational forces heating comet gets inner solar system n't forget galilean satellites jupiter poor old physics intuition surprised tiny masses , sitting close jupiter , play role whatsoever problem , put technically , extra volume add phase space possible capture trajectories negligible jupiter kg , galilean satellites around also , said , references 've looked mention breakup important processes important thing jupiter sun comet reverse slingshot leads weakly jupiter bound orbit comet \( least temporary one \) bill higgins late night still doth haunt fermilab dressed garments soaked bitnet higgins fnal bitnet though life used hug internet higgins fnal fnal gov 's dead , draw line ! span hepnet 43011 higgins tragedy , clementine
jmcocker eos ncsu edu \( mitch \) subject wrench works \? originator jmcocker 100lez eos ncsu edu reply jmcocker eos ncsu edu \( mitch \) organization north carolina state university , project eos lines 19 hi , really thought would seen something , n't , goes last night evening news , said something effect one recovered recent space shuttle launch found wrench sort rattling around apparently inside case item found , type wrench , say something nasa official commenting would inquiry thing got anybody else net whose info sources may better mine heard anything \? seems rather weird mitch jmcocker eos ncsu edu
world std com \( richard pierce \) subject recent observations hubble keywords hst , pluto , uranus organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 13 article kelvin jpl nasa gov baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov \( ron baalke \) writes recent observations taken hubble space telescope observations made using high speed photometer planet uranus faint star wow ! knew uranus long way , n't think far away ! dick pierce loudspeaker software consulting 17 street , \( 508 \) 433 9183 \( voice fax \)
baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov \( ron baalke \) subject galileo update 04 15 93 organization jet propulsion laboratory lines 113 distribution world nntp posting host kelvin jpl nasa gov keywords galileo , jpl news software vax vms vnews 1 41 forwarded neal , galileo mission director galileo mission director status report post launch april 9 15 , 1993 spacecraft 1 april 9 , real time commands sent , planned , celestial reference completion low gain antenna \( lga 2 \) swing dual drive \( \) hammer activities 2 april 9 , ej 1 \( earth jupiter 1 \) sequence memory load spacecraft without incident sequence covers spacecraft activity april 12 , 1993 june 14 , 1993 includes window radio relay antenna \( rra \) slew test april 28 , 1993 command loss timer set 11 days part sequence memory load 3 april 12 15 , op command sent reset command loss timer 264 hours , planned value mission phase 4 april 12 , cruise science memory readouts \( \) performed extreme ultraviolet spectrometer \( euv \) , dust detector \( dds \) , magnetometer \( mag \) instruments preliminary analysis indicates data received properly 5 april 12 , ultra stable oscillator \( \) test performed verify health status collect gravitational red shift experiment data long term trend analysis continuing 6 april 14 , 40bps modulation index test performed determine optimal signal noise ratio \( \) transmitting 40bps preliminary analysis data suggests present pre launch selected modulation index near optimal level 7 april 15 , cruise science memory readouts \( \) performed extreme ultraviolet spectrometer \( euv \) magnetometer \( mag \) instrument preliminary analysis indicates data received properly 8 april 15 , periodic rpm \( retro propulsion module \) 10 newton thruster flushing maintenance activity performed 12 thrusters flushed activity thruster performance throughout activity nominal 9 ac dc bus imbalance measurements exhibited significant changes \( greater 25 dn \) throughout period ac measurement reads 19 dn \( 4 3 volts \) dc measurement reads 111 dn \( 12 9 volts \) measurements consistent model developed ac dc special anomaly team 10 spacecraft status april 15 , 1993 , follows \) system power margin 60 watts b \) spin configuration dual spin c \) spin rate sensor 3 star scanner \) spacecraft attitude approximately 18 degrees sun \( lagging \) 6 degrees earth \( leading \) e \) downlink telemetry rate antenna 40bps \( coded \) lga 1 f \) general thermal control temperatures within acceptable range g \) rpm tank pressures within acceptable range h \) orbiter science instruments powered pws , euv , , , mag , hic , dds \) probe powered , temperatures within acceptable range j \) cmd loss timer setting 264 hours time initiation 260 hours gds \( ground data systems \) 1 galileo participated second dsn \( deep space network \) acceptance test dsn telemetry phase 3 upgrade april 13 , 1993 , using 21 \( compatibility test area 21 \) purpose test verify flow galileo telemetry data new telemetry group controller \( tgc \) telemetry channel assembly \( \) tgc replacement current telemetry processing assembly \( tpa \) seven different telemetry rates run test ran well mts \( telemetry subsystem \) 0 gif exception rate trouble staying lock appears tgc data correctly comparisons mts data test conducted \( mission verification test \) tgc system expected begin may 16 , 1993 trajectory noon thursday , april 15 , 1993 , galileo spacecraft trajectory status follows distance earth 152 , 606 , 000 km \( 1 02 au \) distance sun 277 , 519 , 800 km \( 1 86 au \) heliocentric speed 93 , 400 km per hour distance jupiter 543 , 973 , 900 km round trip light time 17 minutes , 4 seconds special topic 1 april 15 , 1993 , total real time commands transmitted galileo since launch , initiated sequence design process 5108 initiated real time command process past week , 7 real time commands transmitted 6 initiated sequence design process one initiated real time command process major command activities included commands celestial reference , uplink ej 1 sequence memory load , reset command loss timer ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab \) 525 3684 telos cynical never helps pasadena , ca 91109 correct situation causes aggravation instead
baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov \( ron baalke \) subject successful balloon flight measures ozone layer organization jet propulsion laboratory lines 96 distribution world nntp posting host kelvin jpl nasa gov keywords jpl news software vax vms vnews 1 41 forwarded public information office jet propulsion laboratory california institute technology national aeronautics space administration pasadena , calif 91109 \( 818 \) 354 contact mary immediate release april 15 , 1993 scientists nasa 's jet propulsion laboratory report successful flight balloon carrying instruments designed measure study chemicals earth 's ozone layer april 3 flight california 's airport reached altitude 37 kilometers \( 121 , 000 feet \) took measurements part program established correlate data upper atmosphere research satellite \( uars \) data balloon flight also compared readings atmospheric trace molecular spectroscopy \( atmos \) experiment currently flying onboard shuttle discovery launch balloons several times year part ongoing ozone research program fact , jpl actively involved study ozone atmosphere three important ways , said dr jim , principal investigator balloon research campaign two jpl instruments uars satellite , continued atmos experiment conducted jpl scientists , jpl balloon research provides collaborative ground truth activities , well data useful right measurements taken balloon payload add pieces complex puzzle atmosphere , specifically mid latitude stratosphere winter spring understanding chemistry occurring region helps scientists construct accurate computer models instrumental predicting future ozone conditions scientific balloon payload consisted three jpl instruments ultraviolet ozone photometer measures ozone balloon descends atmosphere limb sounder looks microwave radiation emitted molecules atmosphere fourier transform infrared monitors atmosphere sunlight launch occurred , following three hour , balloon floated approximately 130 kilometers per hour \( 70 knots \) data radioed ground stations recorded onboard flight ended 10 p pacific time eastern new mexico payload commanded separate balloon needed fly sunset make infrared measurements , explained , also needed fly darkness watch quickly molecules disappear several weeks scientists completed results experiments forward data uars central data facility goddard space flight center greenbelt , maryland use uars scientists balloon launched national scientific balloon facility , normally based palestine , tex , operating contract nasa 's wallops flight facility balloon launched california west east wind direction desire keep operation southwest balloons made 20 micron \( 0 8 mil , less one inch \) thick plastic , 790 , 000 cubic meters \( 28 million cubic feet \) volume fully inflated helium \( 120 meters \( 400 feet \) diameter \) balloons weigh 1 , 300 1 , 800 kilograms \( 3 , 000 4 , 000 pounds \) scientific payload weighs 1 , 300 kilograms \( 3 , 000 \) pounds 1 8 meters \( six feet \) square 4 6 meters \( 15 feet \) high jpl balloon research sponsored nasa 's upper atmosphere research program uars measurements program ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab \) 525 3684 telos cynical never helps pasadena , ca 91109 correct situation causes aggravation instead
jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu \( josh hopkins \) subject russian operation us space missions organization university illinois urbana lines 10 know people hate someone says somethings like article somewhere ago i'm going say anyway read article subject , almost certainly space news , something like six months ago anyone really interested subject probably hunt given enough motivation josh hopkins jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu tout ce est capable , capable de le jules verne
pyron skndiv dseg ti com \( dillon pyron \) subject many read sci space \? lines 11 nntp posting host skndiv dseg ti com reply pyron skndiv dseg ti com organization ti dseg vax support actually two us henry , fred , tommy mary oh yeah , n't real name , i'm bald headed space baby dillon pyron opinions expressed ti dseg lewisville vax support sender unless otherwise stated \( 214 \) 462 3556 \( i'm \) \( 214 \) 492 4656 \( i'm home \) texans vote robin hood need pyron skndiv dseg ti com solutions , gestures padi dm 54909
higgins fnalf fnal gov \( bill higgins beam jockey \) subject doppelganger \( vulcan \? , spock \) organization fermi national accelerator laboratory lines 22 distribution world nntp posting host fnalf fnal gov article rave larc nasa gov , c egalon larc nasa gov \( claudio oliveira egalon \) writes science fiction movie sometime ago \( remember name \) planet orbit earth hidden behind sun could never visible earth known journey far side sun united states doppelganger u k produced great team gerry anderson \( whose science usually bit better \) may first production using live actors better known puppet shows , , , thunderbirds later , went live action sf series ufo space 1999 astronomy lousy , lifting body spacecraft , airliners , mighty portugese launch complex wonderful look bill higgins , beam jockey valley fermi national accelerator laboratory doth bitnet higgins fnal bitnet grow roses internet higgins fnal fnal gov clementine span hepnet 43011 higgins
jgarland kean ucs mun ca subject comet temporary orbit around jupiter \? lines 37 organization memorial university st john 's nfld , canada article kelvin jpl nasa gov , baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov \( ron baalke \) writes article 1993apr15 sq sq com , msb sq sq com \( mark brader \) writes close would comet gotten jupiter pass put temporary orbit , far likely get jupiter makes escape \? answer questions n't know yet n't know sure comet temporary orbit see n't interested particular case typical behavior , anyway questions answered previous instance , gehrels 3 mentioned earlier posting \? gehrels 3 temporary jovian orbit 3 4 years 'll get orbital elements dance planets post sorry folks , done , meant hit send key orbital elements comet \( dance files \) p \( au \) 3 e 0 1 cap omega \( 0 \) 243 w \( 0 \) 231 1607 epoch 1977 also , gehrels3 april 1973 83 jupiter radii august 1970 3 jupiter radii hope helps i'm even less orbital mechanic artist john garland jgarland kean ucs mun ca
tkelso afit af mil \( ts kelso \) subject two line orbital element set space shuttle keywords space shuttle , orbital elements , keplerian nntp posting host scgraph afit af mil organization air force institute technology lines 21 current orbital elements norad two line element sets carried celestial bbs , \( 513 \) 427 0674 , updated daily \( possible \) documentation tracking software also available system service satellite user community , current elements current shuttle mission provided celestial bbs may accessed 24 hours day 300 , 1200 , 2400 , 4800 , 9600 bps using 8 data bits , 1 stop bit , parity element sets \( also updated daily \) , shuttle elements , documentation software also available via anonymous ftp archive afit af mil \( 129 92 1 66 \) directory pub space sts 56 1 93 23 93105 00000 0 3 0 230 2 57 147 288 38 15 1084 1993 1 93 23 b 93103 00000 0 3 0 86 2 57 0000 155 1150 293 66 5967 15 803 dr ts kelso assistant professor space operations tkelso afit af mil air force institute technology
aws iti org \( allen w sherzer \) subject dc x update \? \? \? organization evil geniuses better tomorrow lines 35 article 1993apr14 stsci edu rdouglas stsci edu \( rob douglas \) writes question probably mostly allen sherzer , anyone knows would welcome answer wondering could kind update dc x well rolled two weeks ago speak white sands getting ready would called sources latest town \( nm \) future , least 5m next years budget work ssrt \( sdio \) looking funds seem however , sdio \( repeat , \) going fund orbital prototype best hope 1 \) keep alive another year , 2 \) fund suborbital vehicle might \( major modifications \) make orbit also money set prototype tanks projects answer open questions better news comes new spacelifter effort usaf managers program open ssto 50m next year studies would enough bring dc pdr money go dc good case could made spending half dc public support still critical meet congressperson \( 'll help \) get support also call local media ans get cover flight tests allen lady astor sir , husband would poison coffee ! w churchill madam , wife , would drink 62 days first flight dcx
freenet carleton ca \( terry ford \) subject nasp x added forwarded space digest organization via international space university original sender isu vacation venari cs cmu edu distribution sci lines 15 could someone please send basics nasp project 1 proposal objectives 2 current status project obstacles encountered 3 chance project shall ever completed interesting information project help much appreciated terry ford freenet carleton ca house , nepean , ontario , canada , earth , solar system , milky way , cluster injuries occuring direct result reading message including heart fault shape form
munizb rwtms2 decnet rockwell com \( rwtms2 munizb \) subject space event los angeles , ca x added forwarded space digest organization via international space university original sender isu vacation venari cs cmu edu distribution sci lines 52 immediate release contact oasis \( 310 \) 364 15 april 1993 los angeles , ca local national space society chapters sponsor talk l advocate lunar power system energy source world april 21 , oasis ventura county chapters national space society sponsor talk lunar power system \( lps \) co inventor vice president lps coalition , dr robert waldron held 7 30 p rockwell science center thousand oaks , ca dr waldron currently technical specialist space materials processing space systems division rockwell international downey , california recognized world authority lunar materials refinement written 15 articles reports materials processing utilization along dr david , waldron invented lunar solar power system concept momentum building coalition entrepreneurs , legal experts , soviet u scientists engineers build lunar power system , pollution free , energy source potential power globe past three years members coalition , nearly half california , commercial scientific concept solar power system based moon lps concept entails collecting solar energy lunar surface power earth microwaves transmitted orbiting antennae mature lps offers enormous source clean , sustainable power meet earth 's ever increasing demand using proven , basic technology oasis \( organization advancement space \) greater los angeles chapter national space society , international non profit organization promotes development space frontier ventura county chapter based oxnard , ca rockwell science center auditorium , 1049 camino dos , thousand oaks , ca directions ventura freeway 101 thousand oaks , exit onto lynn road heading north \( right turn 101 north , left turn 101 south \) , 1 2 mile turn left camino dos , 1 2 mile make first right rockwell camino , parking top hill left
rborden ugly uvic ca \( ross borden \) subject many read sci space \? nntp posting host gw uvic ca organization university victoria , victoria , bc , canada lines 33 article 306 access digex net prb access digex com \( pat \) writes old days , used arbitron analyzed readership posting volumes group user available uunet 's check readership sci space , stupid unscientific attempt flood newsgroup idea n't reply directly post , tell read sci space \) pat sigh try make little joke , try inject humour happens \? immortal words foghorn leghorn say , joke , son thought bit mcelwaine , mention two smileys , would indicate even humour impaired joking sigh \( everyone pat 's suggestion \( thanks bunches , pat \) please stop sending email \) shot man watch die ross borden i'm going disneyland ! rborden ra uvic ca
abdkw stdvax \( david ward \) subject shuttle launch question news software vax vms vnews 1 4 b1 organization goddard space flight center robotics lab distribution sci lines 18 article 1 cs cmu edu , etrat ttacs1 ttu edu \( pack rat \) writes something bothering watching nasa select well , say bothering , maybe wondering would better going launch say \( sorry forget exactly saying , otc think \) clear caution warning memory verify unexpected errors wondering expected error might sorry really dumb question , pure speculation , would guess based hazardous pre launch ops would qualify something like caution srbs armed raise interesting question hard pick expected error unexpected error heat moment
subject none otago ac nz organization university otago , dunedin , new zealand nntp posting host otago ac nz lines 12 someone please remind said well known quotation \? sitting atop rocket awaiting liftoff afterwards , answer question thinking , said \( approximately \) half million components , work perfectly , supplied lowest bidder attribution correction quote would much appreciated clive
nanderso endor sim es com \( norman anderson \) subject wrench works \? organization evans sutherland computer corp lines 13 jmcocker eos ncsu edu \( mitch \) writes effect one recovered recent space shuttle launch found wrench sort rattling around apparently inside case heard similar statement local news \( utah \) tonight referred tool pliers took ride space also said thiokol \( sp \? \) employee reported missing tool kind assembly one srb info location srb agree , pretty weird
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject solar sail data organization u toronto zoology lines 10 article male ebay sun com ebay sun com writes hey ! \? happened solar sail race supposed columbus 500 \? recession , none potential could raise money race organizers actually supposed handling part , less said better work one man 's work henry spencer u toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
lazarus dev cdx mot com \( john \) subject many read sci space \? nntp posting host dev cdx mot com organization motorola codex , canton , massachusetts lines 18 rborden ugly uvic ca \( ross borden \) writes quick ! everyone sees , post reply says hey , read sci space ! count , find many ! \) \( also help answer nagging question maximum bandwidth internet , anyways \? \) n't think would better e mail back read sci space count every server world get bw 'd death instead could possible cut past senders single post save header bandwidth meaning taken flame 's late work toward demo little
stephens geod emr ca \( dave stephenson \) subject clementine science team selected nntp posting host ngis geod emr ca organization dept energy , mines , resources , ottawa lines 32 nickh cs cmu edu \( nick haines \) writes article stephens ngis stephens geod emr ca \( dave stephenson \) writes remember first government scientist british empire astronomer royal , paid department ordinance budget \( e military \) house \( original \) built army surplus scrap \( gate house tower london \? \) , paid sale time expired gunpowder time , astronomy vital military , navigation primary military , good impossible without good astronomy relevance somewhat less obvious nick still applies , except astronomy days long baseline radio astronomy coupled gps satellite laser ranging data nasa 's naval observatory 's \( among others \) vital source data studies dynamics , earth rotation , every time leap second added new year , remember military science still co nicely vlbi used track passed earth , used little fuel afford observe ida dave stephenson survey canada ottawa , ontario , canada internet stephens geod emr ca
levels unisa edu au subject cold gas roll control thruster tanks organization university south australia lines 5 anyone know size cold gas roll control thruster tanks sounding rockets \? thanks advance , jim
organization esoc european space operations centre esoc bitnet subject apollo training iceland distribution sci lines 10 apollo astronauts also trained \( \) meteor crater area \( arizona \) museum space shop caution ease 6 compared ksc visit 's worth disclaimer mbp software systems gmbh c esa esoc stb neither esa mbp responsible darmstadt , germany postings ! esoc bitnet
ukc ac uk \( r lorenz \) subject cold gas tanks sounding rockets organization computing lab , university kent canterbury , uk lines 14 nntp posting host eagle ukc ac uk anyone know size cold gas roll control thruster tanks sounding rockets \? well , first work much cold gas need , make tanks big enough working much cold gas another problem , depending vehicle configuration , flight duration , thruster isp \( couples storage pressure , may factor selecting tank wall thickness etc \) ralph lorenz unit space sciences university kent , uk
pbd runyon cim cdc com \( paul dokas \) subject big amateur rockets organization systems , inc lines 23 reading popular science morning surprised ad back know lot ads back ps fringe science legal , one really grabbed attention company name personal , inc something like anyhow , ad stated 'd sell rockets 20' length engines sizes f also said rockets reach 50 , 000 feet , aside obvious dangers amateur rocketeer using one beasts , n't illegal \? ca n't imagine faa allowing people shoot rockets flight levels passenger planes even mention problem locating rocket comes , i'm going even think buying one i'm crazy paul mine 'll 50 , 000 feet carries 50 pounds dynamite dokas include std disclaimer define full name paul dokas define email pbd runyon cim cdc com remember , die someday
kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov subject shuttle oxygen \( budget astronaut \) organization nasa jsc gm2 , space shuttle program office x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 29 henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) writes emergency oxygen system capable maintaining breathable atmosphere cabin long enough come , even something like hole wall nobody tries plug josh hopkins \( jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu \) replied wow double wow land shuttle hole wall \? , n't know , 'd like try sometime , yes , land orbiter 5 cm hole wall provided thing caused 5 cm hole n't cause 1 failure internal systems places 5 cm hole would cause bad day especially 5 cm hole went way orbiter side , could easily happen meteor strike hole pressure vessel would cause us immediately de orbit next available landing site ken jenks , nasa jsc gm2 , space shuttle program office kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov \( 713 \) 483 4368 nasa turns dreams realities makes science fiction fact daniel goldin , nasa administrator
dannyb panix com \( daniel burstein \) subject japanese moon landing \? organization panix public access unix , nyc lines 17 afraid ca n't give info hoping someone netland details short story newspaper days ago made sort mention japanese , using sounded like gravity assist , managed crash \( crash land \) package moon article vague unclear , make matters worse , n't clip anyone 's memory \? thanks dannyb panix com
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject big amateur rockets organization u toronto zoology lines 30 article mkk raistlin cdc com pbd runyon cim cdc com \( paul dokas \) writes anyhow , ad stated 'd sell rockets 20' length engines sizes f also said rockets reach 50 , 000 feet , aside obvious dangers amateur rocketeer using one beasts , n't illegal \? ca n't imagine faa allowing people shoot rockets flight levels passenger planes situation regard changed considerably recent years see discussion high power rocketry rec models rockets frequently asked questions list hardware walk street buy need proper certification , mostly tripoli \( high power analog \) , although moving extend upper boundaries considers proper need special faa authorization , provided n't one lax runway approaches something stupid like , 's especially hard arrange model rocketry , sort hardware reasonably safe handled properly proper handling takes care , need lot empty air fly , 's basically model rocketry scaled model rocketry , high power people use factory built engines , eliminates major safety hazard rocketry work one man 's work henry spencer u toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
ksr com \( john f woods \) subject wrench works \? organization kendall square research corp lines 15 nanderso endor sim es com \( norman anderson \) writes jmcocker eos ncsu edu \( mitch \) writes effect one recovered recent space shuttle launch found wrench sort rattling around apparently inside case heard similar statement local news \( utah \) tonight referred tool pliers took ride space also said thiokol \( sp \? \) employee reported missing tool kind assembly one srb assume , , someone thiokol put manager 's hat said pissing customer delaying shipment srb look inside bad idea , regardless tool might ended get feeling thiokol manager 's hats shaped like cones \?
jim inqmind bison mb ca \( jim \) subject many read sci space \? organization inquiring mind bbs 1 204 488 1607 lines 36 rborden ugly uvic ca \( ross borden \) writes article permanet org mark prado p2 f349 n109 z1 one could go , wonder many people read sci space power influence individuals \? quick ! everyone sees , post reply says hey , read sci space ! count , find many ! \) \( also help answer nagging question maximum bandwidth internet , anyways \? \) amateur radio operator \( vhf \) like keep going \( matter coming \) 30 days learned alot satellites current , future past way back series astro observatory \( space \) borrowed book library called satellites \( think , photo earth type satellite \) would like build model large color poster one satellites think places usa sell favorite looking satellite , followed amsat oscar 13 \( ao 13 \) 73 jim jim inqmind bison mb ca inquiring mind bbs , winnipeg , manitoba 204 488 1607
sysmgr king eng umd edu \( doug mohney \) subject shuttle oxygen \( budget astronaut \) organization computer aided design lab , u maryland college park lines 19 reply sysmgr king eng umd edu nntp posting host queen eng umd edu article 1993apr16 aio jsc nasa gov , kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov writes josh hopkins \( jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu \) replied double wow land shuttle hole wall \? , n't know , 'd like try sometime \? \) hole pressure vessel would cause us immediately de orbit next available landing site nasa available landing sites russian republic , friends comrades \? software engineering \? 's like military intelligence , n't \? sysmgr cadlab eng umd edu
mark prado p2 f349 n109 z1 permanet org \( mark prado \) subject sixty two thousand \( many read sci space \? \) lines 32 reply address mark prado permanet org anyone knows anyone else would like get sci space , n't internet feed \( cryptic internet feed \) , would willing feed nice offline message reader editor , automated modem mailer program pick mail \( quickly easily \) , install exe set charge sci space feed , though dial washington , c bbs 's store forward system mail , minimum connect times \( i'm used overseas calls \) \( offer free feed particular newsgroups \) speeds 14400 \( v32bis \) supported vip 's might offered free services , internet address functionality get feed uunet run 4 line hub 've years extremely reliable hub software provide runs ms dos \( os 2 windows dos box \) , compatible software packages exist macintosh unix responses private go mark prado permanet org \( way , , apologies public traffic glib question really n't expect public replys thanks bill higgins interesting statistics lead \) origin internet gateway \( 1 109 349 2 \)
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject japanese moon landing \? organization u toronto zoology lines 14 article panix com dannyb panix com \( daniel burstein \) writes short story newspaper days ago made sort mention japanese , using sounded like gravity assist , managed crash \( crash land \) package moon hiten engineering test mission spent highly eccentric earth orbit lunar flybys , inserted lunar orbit using tricky gravity assist like maneuvering meant would crash moon eventually , since thing stable lunar orbit \( far anyone knows \) , believe recall hearing recently happen work one man 's work henry spencer u toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
cbnewsd cb att com \( r \) subject big amateur rockets organization bell labs naperville , il distribution usa lines 48 article mkk raistlin cdc com pbd runyon cim cdc com \( paul dokas \) writes reading popular science morning surprised ad back know lot ads back ps fringe science legal , one really grabbed attention company name personal , inc something like anyhow , ad stated 'd sell rockets 20' length engines sizes f also said rockets reach 50 , 000 feet , aside obvious dangers amateur rocketeer using one beasts , n't illegal \? ca n't imagine faa allowing people shoot rockets flight levels passenger planes even mention problem locating rocket comes , i'm going even think buying one i'm crazy paul mine 'll 50 , 000 feet carries 50 pounds dynamite dokas could public missile , inc michigan \? description ad , sounds like 're talking high power rocketry , outgrowth model rocketry hobby uses non metallic structural manufactured engines ranging impulse classification g p hobby flourishing early 1980s becoming increasing popular technically consider amateur rocketry rocket liftoff weight greater 3 3 pounds using total impulse g greater , requires faa waiver launch typically , group people get faa waiver specified period time \( ie week , weekend , etc \) designated site time , launches covered blanket waiver also high power safety code designates specific rules launch field size , etc finally , order purchase larger \( class b \) rocket motors need certified either national association rocketry tripoli rocketry association certification procedures require handling safe flight total impulse level information , watch rec models rockets newsgroup r michael uucp att ! ihlpb ! bell labs naperville , il internet ihlpb att com
lawrence curcio lc2b andrew cmu edu subject big amateur rockets organization doctoral student , public policy management , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 26 nntp posting host po3 andrew cmu edu reply mkk raistlin cdc com let 's see n't , strict sense , amateur rockets term denotes rockets , engines constructed user rockets describe called hpr , high power rockets , distinguish \( smaller \) model rockets use factory made composite propellants phenolic plastic engines graphite engines classified impulse engine , example , 20 newton seconds impulse f engine 40 ns letter corresponds doubling maximum impulse far , engines size available pretty much shelf engines size h shipped class b explosives , controlled engines size f shipped class c explosives , controlled class f engines , btw , hpr engines , model rocket engines \( class g engines go legal \) hpr society , tripoli rocket society , believe , holds events various sites throughout year , legalities \( faa waiver included \) taken care national association rocketry concerned engines h , though involved hpr well societies users hpr rockets , companies sell individuals bottom line 's legit suggest send catalog forget dynamite , ya \? larry c
munizb rwtms2 decnet rockwell com \( rwtms2 munizb \) subject space event near los angeles , ca x added forwarded space digest organization via international space university original sender isu vacation venari cs cmu edu distribution sci lines 55 apologies gets posted twice , n't think first one made immediate release contact oasis \( 310 \) 364 15 april 1993 los angeles , ca local national space society chapters sponsor talk l advocate lunar power system energy source world april 21 , oasis ventura county chapters national space society sponsor talk lunar power system \( lps \) co inventor vice president lps coalition , dr robert waldron held 7 30 p rockwell science center thousand oaks , ca dr waldron currently technical specialist space materials processing space systems division rockwell international downey , california recognized world authority lunar materials refinement written 15 articles reports materials processing utilization along dr david , waldron invented lunar solar power system concept momentum building coalition entrepreneurs , legal experts , soviet u scientists engineers build lunar power system , pollution free , energy source potential power globe past three years members coalition , nearly half california , commercial scientific concept solar power system based moon lps concept entails collecting solar energy lunar surface power earth microwaves transmitted orbiting antennae mature lps offers enormous source clean , sustainable power meet earth 's ever increasing demand using proven , basic technology oasis \( organization advancement space \) greater los angeles chapter national space society , international non profit organization promotes development space frontier ventura county chapter based oxnard , ca rockwell science center auditorium , 1049 camino dos , thousand oaks , ca directions ventura freeway 101 thousand oaks , exit onto lynn road heading north \( right turn 101 north , left turn 101 south \) , 1 2 mile turn left camino dos , 1 2 mile make first right rockwell camino , parking top hill left
nucleus ps uci edu \( eric van \) subject big amateur rockets nntp posting host nucleus ps uci edu organization university california , irvine lines 30 actually , legal ! familiar ad speaking knowing popular science probably fringe however , may speaking public , inc , legitimate company around due advances composite fuels , engines available model rockets using similar composites srb fuel , roughly 3 times powerful black powder motors even available form , e aluminum casing , end , rings \( ! \) engines range way common manufacture , n 've heard used special occasions model rocket , however , rocket ca n't contain metal structural parts , amongst requirements 've never heard model rocket 50 , 000 heard 20 , 000 foot flights require faa waivers \( course ! \) large national launches \( , \) , see many k sized engine flights actually , using g engine constitutes area high power rocketry , seperate normal model rocketry purchase engines like describing require membership national association rocketry , tripoli rocketry assoc , part educational institute company involved rocketry amatuer rocketry another area i'm really familiar , area metal parts allowed , along liquid fuels n't know kind regulations involved , i'm sure numerous high power rocketry exciting ! interested questions , newsgroup rec model rockets
schumach convex com \( richard schumacher \) subject dc x update \? \? \? nntp posting host starman convex com organization convex computer corporation , richardson , tx , usa x disclaimer message written user convex computer corp opinions expressed user necessarily convex lines 32 1993apr15 iti org aws iti org \( allen w sherzer \) writes future , least 5m next years budget work ssrt \( sdio \) looking funds seem however , sdio \( repeat , \) going fund orbital prototype best hope 1 \) keep alive another year , 2 \) fund suborbital vehicle might \( major modifications \) make orbit also money set prototype tanks projects answer open questions would sub orbital version suitable \( \) use sounding rocket \? better news comes new spacelifter effort usaf managers program open ssto 50m next year studies would enough bring dc pdr thank ghod ! thought spacelifter would definitely bastard son nls \( reminder \) money go dc good case could made spending half dc public support still critical meet congressperson \( 'll help \) get support also call local media get cover flight tests
rchland vnet ibm com \( karl anderson \) subject wrench works \? disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host oslo rchland ibm com organization ibm rochester lines 42 another space forum leave pliers \? workers kennedy space center disassembled sts 56 solid rocket boosters surprised find pair pliers outside base right hand srb tool survived trip launch pad approximately 250 , 000 foot altitude , towing back ksc nasa spokesperson lisa told media , 's long time since something like happened 've lost washers bolts \( \) never tool like initial investigation incident shown thiokol corp technician noticed reported pliers missing april 2nd unfortunately , worker 's supervisor act report discovery launched extra payload nasa officials never told missing tool april 8th launch date free flying pliers supposed srb technician tool found aft section booster , 18 inch long rope still attached pliers found part booster easily visible launch pad \( ron 's ed note , easy \) spokesperson lockheed space operations company said shuttle processor take appropriate action thiokol work prepare shuttle hardware launch karl anderson dev 2000 configuration management version control dept 006 2 rochester , minnesota 253 tie 8 453 internet karl vnet ibm com prodigy seek , strive , find , yield alfred lord
pyron skndiv dseg ti com \( dillon pyron \) subject wrench works \? lines 31 nntp posting host skndiv dseg ti com reply pyron skndiv dseg ti com organization ti dseg vax support article ksr com , ksr com \( john f woods \) writes nanderso endor sim es com \( norman anderson \) writes jmcocker eos ncsu edu \( mitch \) writes effect one recovered recent space shuttle launch found wrench sort rattling around apparently inside case heard similar statement local news \( utah \) tonight referred tool pliers took ride space also said thiokol \( sp \? \) employee reported missing tool kind assembly one srb test first reusable tool assume , , someone thiokol put manager 's hat said pissing customer delaying shipment srb look inside bad idea , regardless tool might ended get feeling thiokol manager 's hats shaped like cones \? pointy find stick pants better , closer brains \? dillon pyron opinions expressed ti dseg lewisville vax support sender unless otherwise stated \( 214 \) 462 3556 \( i'm \) \( 214 \) 492 4656 \( i'm home \) texans vote robin hood need pyron skndiv dseg ti com solutions , gestures padi dm 54909
baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov \( ron baalke \) subject japanese moon landing \? organization jet propulsion laboratory lines 16 distribution world nntp posting host kelvin jpl nasa gov news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article panix com dannyb panix com \( daniel burstein \) writes short story newspaper days ago made sort mention japanese , using sounded like gravity assist , managed crash \( crash land \) package moon japanese spacecraft , hiten , crashed moon last weekend past three years made several lunar flybys even aerobraking experiments earth 's atmosphere placed lunar orbit february 1992 , guess finally ran fuel unable maintain orbit around moon ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab \) 525 3684 telos aweto new zealand pasadena , ca 91109 part caterpillar part vegetable
xrcjd mudpuppy gsfc nasa gov \( charles j divine \) subject washington post article us russian space cooperation organization nasa gsfc greenbelt maryland lines 23 reported yesterday washington post \( kathy sawyer , writer \) article plays russian role us space gibbons \( science advisor clinton \) sent goldin letter indicating nasa limit redesign options compatible mir orbit white house thinks expectations russian cooperation raised high article reports think spending schedule limits space station stringent redesign nearly impossible 's think goldin begun looking russian hardware goldin states nasa present options administration decision making power goldin white house totally ruled using energia boost station chuck divine
rls uihepa hep uiuc edu \( ray swartz \( oh , guy \) \) subject japanese moon landing \? reply rls uihepa hep uiuc edu organization vis orb lines 35 article zoo toronto edu , henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) writes article panix com dannyb panix com \( daniel burstein \) writes short story newspaper days ago made sort mention japanese , using sounded like gravity assist , managed crash \( crash land \) package moon hiten engineering test mission spent highly eccentric earth orbit lunar flybys , inserted lunar orbit using tricky gravity assist like maneuvering meant would crash moon eventually , since thing stable lunar orbit \( far anyone knows \) , believe recall hearing recently happen gravity maneuvering used exploit described inventor exploiting second order perturbations three body system probe launched region earth moon sun system , perturbations affected way allow go lunar orbit without large expenditures fuel slow idea objects sometimes get captured without expending fuel , 'll find trajectory makes possible originator technique said nasa n't interested , japan probe small could n't hold lot fuel deceleration issue 'the planetary believe , 2 months ago \( \? \) raymond l swartz jr \( rls uihepa hep uiuc edu \) read newspaper today amazed , 24 hours , five billion people could accomplish little
goltz mimi uu net \( james p goltz \) subject orion drive vacuum \? organization uunet technologies inc , falls church , va , usa lines 31 nntp posting host mimi uu net background orion theoretical concept would drive using explosions drive spacecraft idea 'd detonate devices somewhere one ten yield behind pusher plate attached main spacecraft shock wave explosions would transfer momentum ship , atmosphere see energy explosion heats atmosphere , expands shock wave pusher plate vacuum , two things see going hit plate fission fusion products \( , krypton , helium , neutrons , evaporated bomb casing \) electromagnetic radiation \( gammas mostly , light heat fission products \) would work \? ca n't see em radiation much momentum \( especially given mass pusher plate \) , seems 're going get momentum transfer throwing bombs back ship get 're must missing something would someone enlighten via email \? thanks jim jim goltz engineer goltz uunet uu net
mwm cs cmu edu \( mark maimone \) subject read sci space without netnews summary space digest address nntp posting host gp cs cmu edu organization school computer science , carnegie mellon lines 36 article permanet org mark prado p2 f349 n109 z1 permanet org \( mark prado \) writes anyone knows anyone else would like get sci space , n't internet feed \( cryptic internet feed \) , would willing feed kudos mark generous offer , already exists large \( email based \) forwarding system sci space posts space digest mirrors sci space exactly , provides simple two way communication subscribe send following message body \( subject \) email message subscribe space john q public one addresses listserv uga listserv uga cc uga edu listserv listserv hut fi space request isu isunet edu 'll receive posts digest form day please use listserv , space request address handled manually post messages send message \( reasonable subject line \) space isu isunet edu questions , comments space request isu isunet edu mark maimone phone 1 \( 412 \) 268 carnegie mellon computer science email mwm cmu edu
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject japanese moon landing \? organization u toronto zoology lines 22 article news cso uiuc edu rls uihepa hep uiuc edu writes allow go lunar orbit without large expenditures fuel slow idea objects sometimes get captured without expending fuel , 'll find trajectory makes possible originator technique said nasa n't interested , japan probe small could n't hold lot fuel deceleration actually , hiten n't originally intended go lunar orbit , indeed n't much fuel hand lunar orbit mission , hagoromo \( tiny deployed hiten lunar flyby \) transmitter failure proper insertion lunar orbit could n't positively confirmed noted technique disadvantages takes long time , end relatively inconvenient lunar orbit want something useful like low circular polar orbit , plan expend certain amount fuel , although reduced 'd need brute force approach work one man 's work henry spencer u toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject orion drive vacuum \? organization u toronto zoology lines 15 article mimi uu net goltz mimi uu net \( james p goltz \) writes would work \? ca n't see em radiation much momentum \( especially given mass pusher plate \) , seems 're going get momentum transfer throwing bombs back ship get 're orion concept actually proposed \( opposed way somewhat misrepresented fiction \) included wrapping thick layer reaction mass probably plastic sort around bomb bomb reaction mass , 's transfers momentum pusher plate work one man 's work henry spencer u toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
prb access digex com \( pat \) subject shuttle oxygen \( budget astronaut \) organization express access online communications usa lines 11 nntp posting host access digex net thought emergency conditions , sts put good size airport could take c 5 747 , take orbiter need vor tac n't know need ils pat anyone know sure
prb access digex com \( pat \) subject many read sci space \? organization express access online communications usa lines 52 nntp posting host access digex net article 1993apr16 sol uvic ca rborden ugly uvic ca \( ross borden \) writes article 306 access digex net prb access digex com \( pat \) writes old days , used arbitron analyzed readership posting volumes group user available uunet 's check readership sci space , stupid unscientific attempt flood newsgroup idea n't reply directly post , tell read sci space \) pat sigh try make little joke , try inject humour happens \? immortal words foghorn leghorn say , joke , son thought bit mcelwaine , mention two smileys , would indicate even humour impaired joking sigh \( everyone pat 's suggestion \( thanks bunches , pat \) please stop sending email \) shot man watch die ross borden i'm going disneyland ! rborden ra uvic ca , put wink end suggestion indicating intensely sarcastic ca n't help everyone got serious ross never saw original posting dropped floor somewhere saw trickle , thought intensely stupid , knowing anything joke , mentioned arbitron left equally stupid joke bill ever increasing devotion thoroughness dug several arbitron stats think arbitron stats severely impaired , good measure proportion n't think anyone knows many people read news anymore pat
c egalon larc nasa gov \( claudio oliveira egalon \) subject japanese moon landing \? organization nasa langley research center lines 13 distribution world reply c egalon larc nasa gov \( claudio oliveira egalon \) nntp posting host tahiti larc nasa gov thing stable lunar orbit right \? \? \? new stuff means put around around moon long orbit unstable \? \? \? , reason \? \? \? combined sun , moon earth provide stable orbit around moon \? \? \? c egalon larc nasa gov c egalon larc nasa gov claudio oliveira egalon
c egalon larc nasa gov \( claudio oliveira egalon \) subject portuguese launch complex \( doppelganger \) organization nasa langley research center lines 14 distribution world reply c egalon larc nasa gov \( claudio oliveira egalon \) nntp posting host tahiti larc nasa gov portugese launch complex wonderful portuguese launch complex \? \? \? gosh polish american way portuguese \( brazil \) joke portuguese space agency wanted send portuguese astronaut surface sun \( thing \) solve problems sending man surface sun \? \? \? simple astronauts travelled night c egalon larc nasa gov c egalon larc nasa gov claudio oliveira egalon
schumach convex com \( richard schumacher \) subject space news feb 1 aw st nntp posting host starman convex com organization convex computer corporation , richardson , tx , usa x disclaimer message written user convex computer corp opinions expressed user necessarily convex lines 10 marshall investigating small odd pressure rise one srb jan 12 endeavour launch lasted three seconds thrust difference two srbs enough cause srb casing shows abnormalities one wrench pliers found inside recovery \?
subject quotation \? lowest bidder otago ac nz organization university otago , dunedin , new zealand nntp posting host otago ac nz lines 12 someone please remind said well known quotation \? sitting atop rocket awaiting liftoff afterwards , answer question thinking , said \( approximately \) half million components , work perfectly , supplied lowest bidder attribution correction quote would much appreciated clive
gmuvax2 gmu edu \( steve \) subject moscow aviation institute summer school organization george mason university , fairfax , virginia , usa lines 103 attached copy announcement picked trip moscow last week several friends moscow aviation institute asked post announcement \( done editing , contents unchanged original announcement \) familiar moscow aviation institute , leading russian school higher education dedicated training aircraft spacecraft designers specializes design , design , control systems , power systems virtually major former soviet designers \( , su , , , etc \) schooled mai opportunity tour two museums maintained mai aircraft include , su 27 , yak 38 , f 111 \( ! \) , among others fascinating eye opening experience , expecially given fact museum , year ago , closed virtually everyone also opportunity see experiments conducted plasma drive engines future space craft use questions institute , program , would glad try answer institute , 's faculty e mail addresses however , takes day receiver get message still bit rapidly changing ! steve gmuvax2 gmu edu ps please send questions via e mail george mason university 2 week \( ! \) delay news feed delivery moscow international aviation school aviation school \( meaning flight \) organized moscow aviation institute , prominent russian center airspace education foreign trade firm , well known various parts world quartz mechanical wrist watches course studies last 50 days , time unique opportunity listen intensive courses main aviation disciplines , history theory techniques , design airplanes visit get acquainted world known russian aviation firms tu , mig , yak , il su meet discussions famous aviation scientists , engineers pilots visit interesting museums unique aviation techniques closed many years public see international airspace show take place moscow 31 august 3 september 1993 visit famous art museums , historical architectural monuments , concert halls take part sport great time new friends director school mr oleg , well known russian scientist , professor , general designer chief airplanes design department moscow aviation institute mr one designers su 24 , su 25 , su 27 lectures given english , using multi media concept students provided necessary text books literature full course studies completed , student receive special certificate graduation cost studies , including hotel , meals , , , etc 3500 apply admission , send application moscow 34 foreign trade firm 274 00 13 \( phone \) 274 00 22 \( fax \) su \( telex \) application , include full name , address , date place birth addition , include complete passport information , well description education upon receipt information , immediately forward official invitation obtaining russian entrance visa well details payment require additional information , please hesitate contact us \( signed \) steve gmuvax2 gmu edu csi physics , george mason university
wallacen cs colostate edu \( nathan wallace \) subject orion space drive reply wallacen cs colostate edu nntp posting host beethoven cs colostate edu organization colorado state university computer science dept lines 16 excellent reference non technical readers orion system handbook , eugene gregory matloff , isbn 0 471 4 relevant chapter 4 nuclear pulse propulsion book also contains lots technical references academically inclined enjoy ! c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c nathan f wallace c c reality c c e mail wallacen cs colostate edu c c ancient proverb c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c
pgf srl03 cacs usl edu \( phil g fraering \) subject japanese moon landing temporary orbit organization univ southwestern louisiana lines 25 rls uihepa hep uiuc edu \( ray swartz \( oh , guy \) \) writes gravity maneuvering used exploit described inventor exploiting second order perturbations three body system probe launched region earth moon sun system , perturbations affected way allow go lunar orbit without large expenditures fuel slow idea objects sometimes get captured without expending fuel , 'll find trajectory makes possible originator technique said nasa n't interested , japan probe small could n't hold lot fuel deceleration probably post another title , guys thread would see practical use temporary orbits another possible temporary orbit phil fraering seems like every day find sorts stuff pgf srl02 cacs usl edu like ancient mayans televison repo man
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject japanese moon landing \? organization u toronto zoology lines 21 article rave larc nasa gov c egalon larc nasa gov \( claudio oliveira egalon \) writes thing stable lunar orbit right \? \? \? new stuff means put around around moon long orbit unstable \? \? \? , reason \? \? \? combined sun , moon earth provide stable orbit around moon \? \? \? lunar satellite needs fuel regular orbit corrections , fuel runs crash within months orbits apollo changed noticeably lunar missions lasting days possible stable orbits moon 's gravitational field poorly mapped know none perturbations sun earth relatively minor issues low altitudes big problem moon 's gravitational field quite due irregular distribution mass within moon work one man 's work henry spencer u toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
tkelso afit af mil \( ts kelso \) subject two line orbital element set space shuttle keywords space shuttle , orbital elements , keplerian nntp posting host scgraph afit af mil organization air force institute technology lines 21 current orbital elements norad two line element sets carried celestial bbs , \( 513 \) 427 0674 , updated daily \( possible \) documentation tracking software also available system service satellite user community , current elements current shuttle mission provided celestial bbs may accessed 24 hours day 300 , 1200 , 2400 , 4800 , 9600 bps using 8 data bits , 1 stop bit , parity element sets \( also updated daily \) , shuttle elements , documentation software also available via anonymous ftp archive afit af mil \( 129 92 1 66 \) directory pub space sts 56 1 93 23 93105 00000 0 3 0 249 2 57 144 304 134 15 1993 1 93 23 b 93103 00000 0 3 0 86 2 57 0000 155 1150 293 66 5967 15 803 dr ts kelso assistant professor space operations tkelso afit af mil air force institute technology
eder hsvaic boeing com \( dani eder \) subject guns space keywords gun , space organization boeing ai center , huntsville , al lines 22 reference limits acceleration guns launching solid rockets payloads thiokol provided samples data reinforcement solid motor grains high accelerations solid motor propellants usually substantial percentage aluminum mix example , space shuttle srbs 16 percent aluminum technique use structure structure looks like inverse set bubbles \( suspect process used form \) words , made bunch bubbles molten aluminum , froze , get forms strong network effectively aluminum wires directions remaining solid fuel mix infiltrated , get aluminum reinforced solid propellant aluminum makes 6 percent total propellant , still aluminum particles bulk grain major improvement higher resistance grain cracking , principal failure mode solid propellant dani eder dani eder meridian investment company \( 205 \) 464 2697 \( w \) 232 7467 \( h \) rt 1 , box 188 2 , athens al 35611 location 34deg 37' n 86deg 43' w 100m alt
eder hsvaic boeing com \( dani eder \) subject guns space keywords gun , space organization boeing ai center , huntsville , al lines 72 okay , lets get record straight livermore gas gun project manager dr john hunter , works laser group livermore , may ask , gas guns lasers \? nothing , really , gun physically located across road free electron laser building , fel building heavily shielded control room \( thick walls \) gun firings controlled suspect office works administrative convenience visited hunter beginning feb toured gun time working gas gun r boeing , work , things \( helping save space station \) , gun uses methane air mixture , burned chamber 200 ft long 16 inch id \( e looks like pipe \) chamber holds 1 ton piston propelled several hundred chamber side piston gas , initially room temperature tens atmospheres piston compresses heats hydrogen ahead stainless steel burst diaphragm , around 50 , 000 psi barrel gun 100 feet long 4 inch bore mounted right angles chamber \( e intersect \) done future , barrel could raised gun fired air without move larger heavier chamber projectile used testing 5 kg cylinder lexan plastic , 4 diameter 50 cm long acceleration comes expansion hydrogen gas 50 , 000 psi downwards projectile leaves barrel barrel evacuated , end sealed sheet plastic film \( little thicker wrap \) plastic blown small amount residual air trapped barrel ahead projectile gun fired bunker filled plastic water early testing fragments plastic projectile found higher speeds later testing , projectile testing bunker livermore test range 3 miles across , projectile would go 100 200 km fired maximum range intent move whole gun vandenberg afb testing complete , fire pacific ocean , use tracking radar follow projectiles design goal gun throw 5 kg projectile 4 km \( half orbital speed \) far reached 2 km , gun currently repairs , last test blew seal damaged hardware \( think methane air burning , n't chance talk hunter directly \) people waiting test components gun firing gun air \( mach 12 4 km \) , since get wind tunnels mach 8 gun cost 4 million develop , basically proof concept bigger gun capable firing useful sized payloads space would require order 100 kg projectiles , deliver order 20 kg useful payload orbit dani eder dani eder meridian investment company \( 205 \) 464 2697 \( w \) 232 7467 \( h \) rt 1 , box 188 2 , athens al 35611 location 34deg 37' n 86deg 43' w 100m alt
eder hsvaic boeing com \( dani eder \) subject elevator top floor organization boeing ai center , huntsville , al lines 56 reading amoco performance products data sheet , erl resin carbon fiber reinforcement strength 280 , 000 psi density 0 lb cu , therefore theoretical height constant section column support 4 8 million inches , 400 , 000 ft , 75 statute miles , real structure horizontal \( either truss type , guy wires , \) used crush strength let us assume operate 40 theoretical strength gives working height 30 miles constant section column constant section column limit high build something allow tapering cross section go example , let us say 280 , 000 pound load support top tower \( simplicity calculation \) requires 2 5 square inches column cross sectional area support weight mile structure payload weigh 9 , 200 lb , 1 mile payload , total load 289 , 200 lb , 3 3 increase next mile structure must 3 3 thicker cross section support top mile tower plus payload mile structure must increase area ratio way bottom see theoretical limit area , although practical limits based much composites afford 40 lb , much load need support ground \( need foundation bedrock support let us arbitrarily choose 1 billion limit cost afford perhaps 10 , 000 , 000 lb composites , assuming finished structure costs 100 lb 40 lb figure materials cost tower payload mass ratio 35 7 1 3 3 mass ratio per mile , tower height becomes 111 miles clearly significant atmosphere rocket launched top tower still provide orbital velocity , atmospheric drag g losses almost eliminated g losses component rocket thrust vertical direction counter gravity , contribute horizontal orbital velocity thus represent wasted thrust together drag , rockets starting ground 15 velocity penalty contend analysis simplified , consider wind loads require structural support first 15 miles height , air pressure drops low enough value big factor dani eder dani eder meridian investment company \( 205 \) 464 2697 \( w \) 232 7467 \( h \) rt 1 , box 188 2 , athens al 35611 location 34deg 37' n 86deg 43' w 100m alt
guitar ucr edu \( john \) subject end space age article galaxy organization university california , riverside lines 82 nntp posting host guitar ucr edu interesting opinion piece business section today 's la times \( thursday april 15 , 1993 , p d1 \) thought 'd post stir flame wars mean reasoned debate let preface saying largely agree space age romantic sense several decades ago , projects like space station miss point time reading , example , 's new weekly physics update get net 's clear romance day lies ever fine manipulation matter include biotechnology , condensed matter physics \( spinoffs computer hardware elsewhere \) , amazing things people individual atoms days large extent , think , romance people still space matter nostalgia feel sure someday precisely , mind children spread across space \( unless wipe \) think manned space exploration exciting anyway , let quote article , space age glory fades view micheal \( writer , consultant , research associate mit \) 35 , america 's space age wo n't suffer angst crisis reason space age already dead technologies longer define times , public grown weary dollar celestial investments yield minimal psychic economic rewards space exploration central america 's science technology debate peripheral issue meaningful part ongoing industrial competitiveness debate , technology infrastructure discussions even defense conversion policy sure , america continue invest satellite technologies telecommunications remote sensing cheap deep space probes would nice ideal space meaningful driver scientific industrial innovation dead change administrations , would foolish write space age bush white house aggressively supported space program proposed spending well 30 billion build space station freedom alone even proposed budget cuts science technology domains , office management budget director richard public champion big ticket space expenditures reality much civilian space program shuttle hubble telescope space station poorly conceived implemented seem matter much political inertia sense coherent vision cost effective sensibilities determined dollar space budgets indeed , notable exceptions , voyager , post apollo era story gold plated space exploration programs promises delivered less clinton administration kept highly regarded daniel goldin administrator national aeronautics space administration , seems clear space exploration positioned either symbolic substantive america 's technological prowess space station budget rightly slashed space virtually ignored administration champions competitiveness agenda wish happened 10 years ago instead starting happen , says bruce murray , caltech professor ran nasa 's jet propulsion lab pasadena 've put lot things n't would rather see 10 billion nasa well 40 billion one filled white elephants
leigh palmer palmer sfu ca subject orion drive vacuum \? x xxmessage id sfu ca x xxdate fri , 16 apr 93 06 33 17 gmt organization simon fraser university x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d17 lines 15 article mimi uu net james p goltz , goltz mimi uu net writes background orion theoretical concept theoretical concept seriously pursued freeman et al many years ago n't know well known , high explosive orion prototype flew \( atmosphere \) san diego back 1957 1958 working general atomic time , n't learn experiment almost thirty years later , ted taylor visited us revealed done feel sure someone must film experiment , 'd really like see anyone seen \? leigh
subject help school eagle wesleyan edu organization wesleyan university nntp posting host wesleyan edu lines 14 newbie net , trying get information paper working get back college anyone send data solar coronal holes aurora past thirty years would big help , information esoteric things like current , surge power companies use , effects aurora earth 's magnetic field , 'd eternally please send anything interesting marty van observatory wesleyan university middletown , ct e mail eagle wesleyan edu thank advance , marty
nsmca aurora alaska edu subject solar sail data article aurora 1993apr17 1 organization university alaska fairbanks lines 24 nntp posting host acad3 alaska edu article 1993apr15 29848 news duc auburn edu , snydefj eng auburn edu \( frank j snyder \) writes looking information concerning projects involving solar sails understand jpl extensive study subject back late 70 's trouble gathering information groups currently involved project \? frank snyder auburn university snydefj eng auburn edu know someone long talks solar sails early year late last year also solar sailing sure captured possible think one regulars data \? think started latest round late last year round topic around , year two michael adams , nsmca acad3 alaska edu i'm high , jacked
nsmca aurora alaska edu subject russian email contacts lines 15 nntp posting host acad3 alaska edu organization university alaska fairbanks anyone russian contacts \( space \) contacts old ussr su eastern europe \? post talk ask questions think cost email high , would keep content specific topics basically want save russia , need make contacts , contacts form info , lets get informing michael adams , nsmca acad3 alaska edu i'm high , jacked alive , alaska \( called russian america \)
wats scicom alphacdc com \( bruce watson \) subject quotation \( none \) organization alpha science computer network , denver , co lines 12 article 1993apr16 1 otago ac nz otago ac nz writes someone please remind said well known quotation \? sitting atop rocket awaiting liftoff afterwards , answer question thinking , said \( approximately \) half million components , work perfectly , supplied lowest bidder sounds similar something wally said bruce watson \( wats scicom alphacdc com \) bulletin 629 49 item 6700 extract 75 , 131
collins well sf ca us \( steve collins \) subject orbital nntp posting host well sf ca us organization whole earth 'lectronic link lines 29 difficulties high isp otv include long transfer times \( radiation damage belts spacecraft otv xenon thrusters require huge amounts power either nuclear power source \( messy , dangerous source radiation damage \) big solar arrays \( sensitive radiation , heavy \) make attitude control docking big pain go solar , replace arrays every trip , current technology nuclear power sources strongly restricted international treaty \( even high isp like xenon \) still required turn pain either develop autonomous rendezvous long range docking \( \) still ca n't much plane change required high ! air force continues look things way though suppose time till technology becomes available problems get solved impossible principle , hard marginally cheaper one shot rockets , least today random thoughts high isp otv 's designed one steve collins
beach cis ufl edu \( kerry todd johnson \) subject army space organization univ florida cis dept lines 17 distribution world nntp posting host beach cis ufl edu anybody willing discuss careers army deal space \? graduate , commitment serve army , would like spend space related field saw post long time ago air force space command made reference army counter part info would appreciated i'm looking things like branch intelligence , signal , \? voice interest space \? qualifications necessary \? etc , etc btw , major computer science engineering please reply reef cis ufl edu thanks info whether ever find life , think jupiter considered enemy planet jack handy reef cis ufl edu elm circa ufl edu endeavour circa ufl edu
fulton seas virginia edu \( michael robert williams \) subject orion drive vacuum \? organization university virginia lines 25 article 1993apr17 sfu ca leigh palmer palmer sfu ca writes article mimi uu net james p goltz , goltz mimi uu net writes background orion theoretical concept theoretical concept seriously pursued freeman et al many years ago n't know well known , high explosive orion prototype flew \( atmosphere \) san diego back 1957 1958 working general atomic time , n't learn experiment almost thirty years later , ted taylor visited us revealed done feel sure someone must film experiment , 'd really like see anyone seen \? leigh nope , n't seen film , taylor 's biography \( curve binding energy \) contains short section orion test flight apparently quite , got von braun excited real life mike williams perpetual grad student e mail virginia edu 's job , 's ever world , plan ahead n't eat st tng
c egalon larc nasa gov \( claudio oliveira egalon \) subject space debris organization nasa langley research center lines 7 distribution world reply c egalon larc nasa gov \( claudio oliveira egalon \) nntp posting host tahiti larc nasa gov guy nasa johnson space center might answer question name right follow dig c egalon larc nasa gov claudio oliveira egalon
penelope sdsc edu \( jeff \) subject end space age \? organization san diego supercomputer center ucsd lines 16 distribution world nntp posting host penelope sdsc edu end space age , end beginning space exploration longer driver technical innovation , focus american cultural attention certainly debatable however , technical developments quarters always examined possible applications space area look forward many innovations might enhance capabilities lower cost future space operations dream alive well jeff member , technical staff institute remote exploration
organization queen 's university kingston graydon saundrsg qucdn queensu ca subject ussr reached moon first \? dxb105 aries 1993apr7 yang earlham edu dxb105 1993apr12 yang earlham edu lines 9 turning 'what 's moonbase good for' , ought post 've hundred odd posts go , would think real reason moon base economic since someone space industry presumeably much larger gnp would without space industry , eventually , simply able afford stuff graydon
bigwpi wpi edu \( joel c \) subject space shuttle information wanted organization worcester polytechnic institute lines 15 nntp posting host bigwpi wpi edu hello everyone , hoping someone could help i'm writing program astronautics class assent shuttle low orbit two things 'd like know , first , much time launch pitch second , cross sectional area shuttle , srb 's , ext tank thanks information , post e mail joel wpi wpi edu
dante shakala com \( charlie prael \) subject army space organization shakala bbs \( clanzen radio network \) sunnyvale , ca 1 408 734 2289 lines 23 beach cis ufl edu \( kerry todd johnson \) writes anybody willing discuss careers army deal space \? graduate , commitment serve army , would like spend space related field saw post long time ago air force space command made reference army counter part info would appreciated i'm looking things like branch intelligence , signal , \? voice interest space \? qualifications necessary \? etc , etc btw , major computer science engineering kerry i'm guessing little , 's years since saw info , probably want look air defense artillery specialty , possibly signals kind thing 're looking sdi type assignments , 'll pretty stuff things like hard kill missiles , cobra rigs kind thing hope gives ideas look , though charlie prael dante shakala com shakala bbs \( clanzen radio network \) sunnyvale , ca 1 408 734 2289
wingo cspara decnet fedex msfc nasa gov subject nasa wraps organization university houston lines 86 distribution world nntp posting host judy uh edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article 1993apr10 iti org , aws iti org \( allen w sherzer \) writes article judy uh edu wingo cspara decnet fedex msfc nasa gov writes btw , universities thing however , wrap 10 15 \( , overhead charge \) wrong allen max overhead charge charge seperately budgeted overhead shape size form fashion professor university virginia told wrap 15 let worked universities employer \( non profit research institute \) generally fee n't care told generally true see every single line item contract sign thing wrap university also asked around ther wrap marquette , university wisconsin madison , utah state , weber state embry riddle u saying happen every instance able track also president university university west said happen either figure must included overhead legitimate charge know \? write proposals contracts know dime charges uah example overhead 36 6 sounds like adding overhead rate go ask costing people much fee add project never heard suggest , like president , percentage number like included overhead numbers allen show else quit barking dennis read article repeat internal estimate done reston costing department says freedom built 1 8b year operated 1b per year money spent freedom since spend half billion per year looks like roughly 25 money wasted think i'm making , confirm anonymous editorial published weeks ago space news allen merely repeated allegations made employee overhead capital nasa nothing reston could dont better cheaper nasa centers work going kinda funny n't someone talks problem like place everything overhead dennis , nasa many problems ca n't accept anything wrong unless blame congress oh , sure , 'll say nasa problems believe \? remember wp 02 overrun \? insisted fault nasa management knew overrun almost year yet refused act still blame congress overrun \? space news point demanded change caused problems \? methinks selective facts numbers allen , cost 500 million per flight service cost flying shuttle ssf 2 billion four flights , get one billion number \? idea trying say dennis allen takes four flights year resupply station cost 500 million flight pay 2 billion year stated friend reston said current station could resupply billion year wrap gone merely points blatent numbers understandably fail see dennis , university alabama huntsville sorry gang deadline satellite someone else going allen 's math little chance
prb access digex com \( pat \) subject army space organization express access online communications usa lines 10 distribution world nntp posting host access digex net army ballistic missile defense organization sdio still exist umbrella army signal corp 's dca defense comm agency oops , changed names space work 's point defense comm sats n't worry , lots jobs need ditch digging , somehow 'll end \)
prb access digex com \( pat \) subject end space age \? organization express access online communications usa lines 30 distribution world nntp posting host access digex net oddly , enough , smithsonian calls lindbergh years golden age flight would call granite years , reflecting primitive nature romantic , , daring young men flying machines reality , sucked death highly likely occurence , environment blew ever see early navy pressure suits , modified diving suits ready star plan 9 outer space radios nav aids joke , engines ran oil picked called men iron , n't due vertigo oddly enough , golden age flight hop shuttle ny 90 bucks , 's golden mercury gemini , apollo romantic , let 's honest peeing bags , plastic bags glued butt everytime needed bowel movement living days inside vw bug romantic , commercial dc x points likely new golden age age fat cigar smoking business men loud space suits fill strip malls used space ship lots , maybe 'll retract golden age bit maybe better old days course , 'll wally telling great grand children , day , walked moon every day miles buses kids got soft pat
freenet carleton ca \( terry ford \) subject flawed propulsion system space shuttle x added forwarded space digest organization via international space university original sender isu vacation venari cs cmu edu distribution sci lines 13 essay , writing space shuttle need better propulsion system research , found rather clumsy \( e checks tests launch \) , safety hazards \( sitting hydrogen bomb \) , etc current space shuttle program propulsion , please send ideas thanks lot terry ford freenet carleton ca nepean , ontario , canada
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject orion drive vacuum \? organization u toronto zoology lines 12 article 1993apr17 sfu ca leigh palmer palmer sfu ca writes high explosive orion prototype flew \( atmosphere \) san diego back 1957 1958 feel sure someone must film experiment , 'd really like see anyone seen \? national air space museum prototype film , years ago , prototype display film continuously repeating work one man 's work henry spencer u toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject orbital organization u toronto zoology lines 21 article well sf ca us collins well sf ca us \( steve collins \) writes difficulties high isp otv include go solar , replace arrays every trip , current technology 're assuming go solar photovoltaic solar dynamic power \( turbo alternators \) n't problem also rather less air drag due higher efficiency , non trivial win big solar plants low altitude , might replace rest electronics fairly often , unless invest substantial amounts mass shielding nuclear power sources strongly restricted international treaty references \? treaties proposed , far know , none ever negotiated signed work one man 's work henry spencer u toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
john dragon angus mi org subject dc x update \? \? \? organization mystery spot bbs reply dragon angus mi org lines 12 henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) writes first flight low hover demonstrate vertical landing payload dc x never carry kind exactly hover test done , tv networks carry really want see john \( dragon angus mi org \) mystery spot bbs , royal oak , mi \?
leigh palmer palmer sfu ca subject orion drive vacuum \? x xxmessage id sfu ca x xxdate sat , 17 apr 93 02 42 51 gmt organization simon fraser university x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d17 lines 11 article 663 zoo toronto edu henry spencer , henry zoo toronto edu writes national air space museum prototype film , years ago , prototype display film continuously repeating great ! 'll visit national air space museum end month wife , also working general atomic time netnews enriched life leigh
aws iti org \( allen w sherzer \) subject nasa wraps organization evil geniuses better tomorrow lines 91 article judy uh edu wingo cspara decnet fedex msfc nasa gov writes n't care told generally true see every single line item contract sign thing wrap university dennis , worked written proposals worth tens millions customers included government \( including nasa \) , profit non profit companies expected wrap \( usually called fee \) much work involved allocating costing work universities , profits , non profits , even nasa centers commercialization space charged fees part work street one nasa commercialization centers charge fee , i'm sure competent engineer dennis , clearly lack experience several areas posts show n't understand importance integration large projects also show lack understanding costing efforts shown belief reasonable charge incremental costs everything n't flame , statement employer charge fee may see sounds like adding overhead rate go ask costing people much fee add project never heard suggest , like president , percentage number like included overhead well dennis said , simply include fee overhead many fee since fee structure change depending customer allen merely repeated allegations made employee overhead capital nasa integration , dennis , n't overhead nothing reston could dont better cheaper nasa centers work going dennis , reston nasa agency working reduce costs wp 02 billion , centers love much best cover ignore problem reston place would find people actually interested solving problems building station kinda funny n't someone talks problem like place everything overhead bit experience dennis , realize integration n't overhead single important part successful large scale effort space news point demanded change caused problems \? methinks selective facts story refer said nasa people blamed congress suprise suprise fact remains centers support much covered would n't address problems press published story saying reston managers wrong get nasa address overruns \? approve centers cover overruns \? takes four flights year resupply station cost 500 million flight pay 2 billion year stated friend reston said current station could resupply billion year wrap gone merely points blatent numbers understandably fail see know dennis nasa n't include transport costs comes shuttle budget saying operational costs could cut half plus transport sorry gang deadline satellite someone else going allen 's math little chance hope find time tell us wrong reston ask problems wp 02 addressed allen lady astor sir , husband would poison coffee ! w churchill madam , wife , would drink 60 days first flight dcx
wales larrison ofa123 fidonet org subject clementine mission name x sender newtout 0 08 feb 23 1993 lines 27 mark prado please go one step word clementine associated mining \? old pioneer song 1850 's goes follows cavern , canyon , mine , miner , forty , daughter , clementine chorus oh darling , oh darling , oh darling clementine lost gone forever , oh darling clementine 've also explained \( confirmed reliable data source \) clementine acronym something like combined lunar mapper experiment extended non terrestrial intercept near earth personally , think acronym made fit name \( really acronym \) wales larrison space technology investor maximus 2 01wb
wales larrison ofa123 fidonet org subject space clipper launch article x sender newtout 0 08 feb 23 1993 lines 40 thought net would find amusing march 1993 aero vision \( newsletter employees mcdonnell douglas aerospace huntington beach , california \) space clippers launched successfully monday , march 15 noon , quest aerospace education , inc launched two dc space clippers mall near cafeteria first rocket launched dr bill , director ssto program manager , second air force captain ed , staff represents air force space command , requested sdio assess dc x potential military operational use rocket launches successful first floated ground cafeteria building 11 , second landed roof cafeteria quest 's space clipper first flying model rocket mcdonnell douglas dc x 1 semi scale model mcdonnell douglas delta clipper estimated maximum altitude 300 feet space clippers used educational settings teach mathematics science , well social studies applications space clipper available either 35 space clipper outfit , includes everything needed three launches , individual rockets 12 available hobby shops calling 1 800 858 way endorsement buy product advertisement buy product make claims product posted public information \( hey , found amusing \) , merely repeat included mdssc huntington beach newsletter wales larrison space technology investor maximus 2 01wb
david anderman ofa123 fidonet org subject news x sender newtout 0 08 feb 23 1993 lines 28 many point seen copy lunar resources data purchase act bill , also known back moon bill , would authorize u government purchase lunar science data private non profit vendors , selected basis competitive bidding , aggregate cap bid awards 65 million copy bill , ca n't n't want go contained federal legislation , n't free resource evaluate bill local congressional office , listed phone book , staffed people forward copy bill legal experts simply ask , consider supporting lunar resources data purchase act get feedback , negative positive , congressional office , please forward david anderman e linda blvd , apt g 14 , , ca , via e mail david anderman ofa123 fidonet org another resource local chapter national space society members chapter happy work evaluate support back moon bill address telephone number nearest chapter , please send e mail , check latest issue ad astra , library near finally , requested , received , information back moon bill , please send request database bill recently corrupted , information lost authors bill thank patience maximus 2 01wb
netcom com \( \) subject talking boeing management ssto type stuff perspective organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 9 might suggest giving management mumble time asking leading question \( two three parts \) long term expectations space market , projects specifically funding internal funds levels competition expect area \( last point always worth hitting upper management gently want think hard good case really \)
netcom com \( \) subject venus lander venus conditions organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 8 doubt good prospects self system venus surface conditions \( several hundred degrees , high pressure co2 , possibly sulfuric acids oxides notion consider outer planets rs might pick less upper atmosphere conditions buying deeper penetration nice creative idea , worthy thinking
ra cs umb edu \( steven r \) subject wanted optical shaft encoders telescope nntp posting host ra cs umb edu organization university massachusetts boston lines 23 also posted misc forsale wanted , misc wanted , ne wanted , ny wanted , nj wanted wanted optical shaft encoders quantity 2 single ended incremental needed encode movements 16 telescope telescope observatory univ mass boston project managed mr george tucker , graduate student umb please call , email call , one two specified type course , due low funding level looking price sufficiently lower given new encoders \) george tucker 617 965 cs umb edu univ home standard disclaimer boston massachusetts usa
netcom com \( \) subject atlas revisited organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) distribution sci lines 8 found interesting atlas depended pressure maintain tank geometry leads question \? ssto concepts explored pressurized launch configuration would significantly different reentry one \? long structures conceived built otto others , tank ssto sounds clever
gary ke4zv uucp \( gary coffman \) subject ussr reached moon first \? reply gary ke4zv uucp \( gary coffman \) organization destructive testing systems lines 30 article 93107 144339saundrsg qucdn queensu ca graydon saundrsg qucdn queensu ca writes turning 'what 's moonbase good for' , ought post 've hundred odd posts go , would think real reason moon base economic since someone space industry presumeably much larger gnp would without space industry , eventually , simply able afford stuff read right , 're saying essence , larger economy , nations discretionary funds waste lunar facility certainly partially case apollo , real lunar colonies probably require continuing military , scientific , commercial reason rather money , \? approach 's conceivable luna military purpose , 's possible luna commercial purpose , 's likely luna scientific purpose next several hundred years least therefore , lunar bases predicated funding levels little different found antarctic bases put 200 person base moon 30 million year \? even use grad students \? gary gary coffman ke4zv make , gatech ! wa4mei ! ke4zv ! gary destructive testing systems break uunet ! rsiatl ! ke4zv ! gary 534 shannon way guaranteed ! emory ! kd4nc ! ke4zv ! gary lawrenceville , ga 30244
nsmca aurora alaska edu subject army space lines 13 nntp posting host acad3 alaska edu organization university alaska fairbanks last heard budget air farce space command left rest missions generally given air farce probably good reason transfer army guard air guard hate walking pack back , put application job kitchen worker , done lot kp \( kitchen police \) michael adams , nsmca acad3 alaska edu i'm high , jacked
tombaker world std com \( tom baker \) subject shuttle launch question organization , world public access unix , brookline , distribution sci lines 29 article stdvax abdkw stdvax \( david ward \) writes article 1 cs cmu edu , etrat ttacs1 ttu edu \( pack rat \) writes something bothering watching nasa select well , say bothering , maybe wondering would better going launch say \( sorry forget exactly saying , otc think \) clear caution warning memory verify unexpected errors wondering expected error might sorry really dumb question , pure speculation , would guess based hazardous pre launch ops would qualify something like caution srbs armed also pure speculation parity errors memory previously known conditions yes error , already knew problem decided backup would handle problem area 1 , 2 , 3 , , problem system decided could without 'd curious real meaning quote tom
mlindroos finabo abo fi \( marcus lindroos inf \) subject infinity \? \( doppelganger \( vulcan \? \) reply sysmgr king eng umd edu 's message 15 apr 1993 22 22 19 gmt organization abo akademi university , finland x news reader vms news 1 24 lines 36 mojo eng umd edu sysmgr king eng umd edu writes article 1993apr15 1 fnalf fnal gov , higgins fnalf fnal gov \( bill higgins beam jockey \) writes known journey far side sun united states doppelganger u k later , went live action sf series ufo space 1999 astronomy lousy , lifting body spacecraft , airliners , mighty portugese launch complex wonderful look exactly space 1999 effects remain first rate even today recycled lot models theme music ufo concepts even showed space 1999 later , tried shed reputation creators worst pseudo scientific shows tv history flying infinity one thing done part bbc 's educational sf series day tomorrow anderson episode dealt spaceship capable reaching speed light \( \) , four man crew eventually journeyed black hole ended far side galaxy \( think \) saw 9 year old back 1976 liked much , fan space 1999 guess easily satisfied days \) anyone know infinity released video \? space 1999 shows vhs know thunderbirds etc also available england marcu software engineering \? 's like military intelligence , n't \? sysmgr cadlab eng umd edu
wdwells nyx cs du edu \( david fuzzy wells \) subject space debris organization university denver , dept math comp sci lines 6 guy nasa johnson space center might answer question name right follow dig , , potter , , \?
wallacen cs colostate edu \( nathan wallace \) subject orion test film reply wallacen cs colostate edu nntp posting host cs colostate edu organization colorado state university computer science dept lines 11 film putt putt test vehicle used conventional explosives proof concept test , another one \? c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c nathan f wallace c c reality c c e mail wallacen cs colostate edu c c ancient proverb c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c
daviss sweetpea jsc nasa gov \( f davis \) subject japanese moon landing temporary orbit organization lines 46 article pgf srl03 cacs usl edu , pgf srl03 cacs usl edu \( phil g fraering \) writes rls uihepa hep uiuc edu \( ray swartz \( oh , guy \) \) writes gravity maneuvering used exploit described inventor exploiting second order perturbations three body system probe launched region earth moon sun system , perturbations affected way allow go lunar orbit without large expenditures fuel slow idea objects sometimes get captured without expending fuel , 'll find trajectory makes possible originator technique said nasa n't interested , japan probe small could n't hold lot fuel deceleration probably post another title , guys thread would see practical use temporary orbits another possible temporary orbit phil fraering seems like every day find sorts stuff pgf srl02 cacs usl edu like ancient mayans televison repo man really interested orbits obtained try find following paper hiroshi , , , hiroki , numerical study gravitational capture orbit earth moon system , aas 92 186 , aas aiaa spaceflight mechanics meeting , colorado springs , colorado , 1992 references included paper quite interesting also include several specific hiten mission ! ! ! ! steven davis daviss sweetpea jsc nasa gov \( \) db mcdonnell douglas n't represent vv space systems company anybody \( \) houston division
head cfa harvard edu \( jonathan mcdowell \) subject shuttle launch question organization smithsonian astrophysical observatory , cambridge , , usa distribution sci lines 23 article world std com , tombaker world std com \( tom baker \) article 1 cs cmu edu , etrat ttacs1 ttu edu \( pack rat \) writes clear caution warning memory verify unexpected errors wondering expected error might sorry really dumb question , parity errors memory previously known conditions yes error , already knew 'd curious real meaning quote tom understanding basically known bugs warning system software things checked n't right values yet n't set till launch , rather fix code possibly introduce new bugs , tell crew , see warning 213 liftoff , ignore it' jonathan
eder hsvaic boeing com \( dani eder \) subject nasp distribution sci organization boeing ai center , huntsville , al lines 39 pertinent report united states general accounting office national aero space plane restructuring future research development efforts december 1992 report number gao nsiad 93 71 back lists following related reports nasp key issues facing program \( 31 mar 92 \) gao nsiad 92 26 aerospace plane technology r efforts japan australia \( 4 oct 91 \) gao nsiad 92 5 aerospace plane technology r efforts europe \( 25 july 91 \) gao nsiad 91 194 aerospace technology technical data information foreign test facilities \( 22 jun 90 \) gao nsiad 90 investment foreign aerospace vehicle research technological development efforts \( 2 aug 89 \) gao nsiad 89 43 nasp technology development demonstration program build x 30 \( 27 apr 88 \) gao nsiad 88 122 inside back cover , ordering information says first copy gao report free orders may also placed calling \( 202 \) 275 dani dani eder meridian investment company \( 205 \) 464 2697 \( w \) 232 7467 \( h \) rt 1 , box 188 2 , athens al 35611 location 34deg 37' n 86deg 43' w 100m alt
bonnie jsc nasa gov \( j jr \) subject \( clementine \? \) reply bonnie jsc nasa gov organization technology nasa jsc houston lines 29 sdio contracted nrl \( naval research laboratory \) fly clementine mission btw call \( deep space project science experiment \) nrl building spacecraft , designing detailed mission integration operations \( help , jpl goddard prob folks left n't mad \) \( trajectory analysis mission planning \) team iv v goddard csc designing sdio , reasons 1 \) safety constraints tight try run leo 2 \) leo n't get new radiation data sensors , get data 9 passages van allen \( sp \? \) belts 3 \) since going piggy back general science 4 \) intercept problem lot long distances long times sure things forgotten , n't told , reasons talk jim bonnie jsc nasa gov
msb sq sq com \( mark brader \) subject comet temporary orbit around jupiter \? organization softquad inc , toronto , canada lines 34 questions answered previous instance , gehrels 3 mentioned earlier posting \? orbital elements comet \( dance files \) p \( au \) 3 e 0 1 cap omega \( 0 \) 243 w \( 0 \) 231 1607 epoch 1977 thanks information ! assume p semi major axis e eccentricity peri given p \( 1 e \) p \( 1 e \) , e , 2 90 3 95 au respectively jupiter , 4 95 5 45 au 1977 temporary capture , means comet ended orbit comes closer 1 au jupiter 's take rough indication far jupiter could get jupiter 's influence also , gehrels3 april 1973 83 jupiter radii august 1970 3 jupiter radii 1 jupiter radius 71 , 000 km 44 , 000 mi 0 0005 au 1970 figure seems unlikely actually anything case 1973 figure well \? mark brader , softquad inc , toronto remember utzoo ! sq ! msb , msb sq com pete article public domain
cats ucsc edu \( l brooks \) subject infinity \? \( doppelganger \( vulcan \? \) organization university california santa cruz lines 36 nntp posting host si ucsc edu summary ! keywords cheesy science fiction article 1993apr18 abo fi mlindroos finabo abo fi \( marcus lindroos inf \) writes later , tried shed reputation creators worst pseudo scientific shows tv history flying infinity one thing done part bbc 's educational sf series day tomorrow anderson episode dealt spaceship capable reaching speed light \( \) , four man crew eventually journeyed black hole ended far side galaxy \( think \) saw 9 year old back 1976 liked much , fan space 1999 guess easily satisfied days \) wow beginning think made remember movie \( 1 5 hours long \) n't think ended anywhere known universe remember got message halfway proxima centauri , earth transmitted day launched , timed catch halfway point thought neat , think 10 time anyone know infinity released video \? space 1999 shows vhs know thunderbirds etc also available england space 1999 come 4 episodes released american stores look infinity show , never know name , thought show called day tomorrow , blow fire wind , take care get smoke eyes big dragon monster cats ucsc edu brooks brooks anarchy arc nasa gov opinions solely
gene theporch raider net \( gene wright \) subject give 1 billion first year long moon residents \? organization macinteresteds nashville , tn lines 12 continuin talk end space age complaints government large cost , try something read might work announce reward 1 billion would go first corporation successfully keeps least 1 person alive moon year 'd see inexpensive popular technologies begin developed 'd different kind space race ! gene theporch raider net \( gene wright \) theporch raider net 615 297 7951 macinteresteds nashville
thomas enblom eos ericsson se \( thomas enblom \) subject navstar positions reply thomas enblom eos ericsson se organization ericsson telecom ab lines 16 nntp posting host ericsson se 've read richard langley 's latest navstar gps constellation status states latest satellite placed orbit plane position c 3 already one satellite position know 's almost ten years since satellite launched 's still operation use goes \? instead place new satellite b 4 since position empty measure almost complete gps constellation \( 23 24 \) \? thomas ericsson telecom , stockholm , sweden thomas enblom , another employee
netcom com \( tom chamberlain \) subject buzz 's race space \? organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 6 anyone heard played buzz 's race space \? anyone know expected released \? thanx , tom
nyx cs du edu \( wyatt \) subject diaspar virtual reality network announcement organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept lines 185 posted internet nyx cs du edu lunar tele operation model one \( ltm1 \) david h mitchell march 23 , 1993 introduction order increase public interest space based lunar operations , real miniature lunar like environment constructed test tele operated models models remotely controlled individuals located world wide using personal computers , purposes provide test bed simple tele operation tele presence activities also provides sharing information methods operating space , including , limited , layout lunar colony , tele operating machines work play , educational information , providing contests awards creativity achievement provides new way students worldwide participate twenty first century remote learning methods nature ltm1 project , people ages , interests skills contribute scenery , models structures , interfacing electronics , software graphics operation ltm1 evolving laboratory used children , students professionals worldwide using personal computer home terminal participating institution user able tele operate real models ltm1 base experimental recreational purposes real facility exists , ample opportunity provided media coverage construction lunar model , operation new features added suggested users broad inherent interest wide range groups tele operations virtual reality research radio control , model railroad ham radio operation astronomy space science centers art theater bbs online network users software game developers manufacturers retailers model rockets , cars trains children child us ltm1 overall design room 14 feet 8 feet contains base lunar layout walls used distant moon mountains , star fields view earth floor simulated lunar surface global call contributions hereby made material lunar surface , design creation scale models lunar colony elements , scenery , machine lets ltm1 initial design 3 tele operated 1 ssto scale model able lift , hover land 2 able move area 3 moon train simulated lunar surface small tv camera utilizing ccd tv chip mounted personal computer image \( including reducing picture content data compression allow minimal images sent operator control purposes \) also return control signals first set moon train since model trains tv cameras built almost shelf items control electronics starting stopping train minimal user receive image every 1 4 seconds depending speed data link ltm1 next , ssto scale model ccd tv chip suspended servo motor operated wire frame mounted ceiling allowing ssto controlled operator take , hover entire lunar landscape land finally , tank models modified ccd tv chip equipped entire initial ltm1 allow remote operators worldwide receive minimal images actually operating models landing takeoff , traveling work entire system based commercially available items parts easily obtained except interface electronics well within capability many advanced ham radio operator computer hardware software developers taking graphically oriented communications program \( \) adding tele operations screen controls , necessary user interface provided 80 man hours plan action diaspar virtual reality network agreed sponsor project providing host computer network internet access network diaspar providing 14 foot 8 foot facility actual construction lunar model diaspar , stock , electronic tanks modified one ccd tv chip diaspar also agrees provide rail stock lunar train model diaspar make available graphical communications package modify control machines lets initial ground breaking miniature shovels performed live photo session news conference april 30 , 1993 initial models put place time lapse record started historical purposes expected event completely serious solemn lunar colony declared open additional building , operations experiments photographer present photographs taken converted gif images distribution world wide major online networks bbs 's press release issued calling contributions ideas , time , talent , materials scale models simulated lunar colony contest new designs techniques working moon announced universities invited participate , goal find instructors wish class participation various aspects lunar colony model field trips ltm1 arranged time results class work added model contributors able tele operate contributed machine lets return campus monthly ltm1 newsletter issued electronically online via conventional means media major new tele operated equipment addition marked invitation television news media large , real model space colony attractive photo opportunity television community especially since action controlled people world science fiction writers invited issue challenges engineering human factors students universities build operate tele operated equipment perform lunar tasks using counter weight systems , 1 6 gravity may simulated extent try various traction challenges long term goal creating world wide interest , education , experimentation remote operation lunar colony ltm1 potential long term global method space activities may generic example teach explore many subject areas limited space facilitates kind spirit lead generation people ready leap stars ! conclusion education entertainment anyone ever enjoyed seeing probably see potential impact globally available layout recreation , education experimentation purposes creating tele operated model lunar colony create world wide publicity , also method trying new ideas require real \( virtual \) skills open new method putting people 's minds space illuminating path knowledge space lunar development following people already engaged various parts work , , dash , , , , wyatt , dark one , , mad , sir robin , come join discussion friday night 10 30 midnight pst diaspar virtual reality network ideas welcome ! internet telnet 192 215 11 1 diaspar com \( voice \) 714 376 1776 \( \) 714 376 1200 \( \) 714 376 email inquiries ltm1 project leader hydra unm edu directly diaspar
icl se \( urban f \) subject orion drive vacuum \? nntp posting host organization none usenet speak x alt reply address n g u fredriksson wins icl co uk lines 14 leigh palmer palmer sfu ca writes feel sure someone must film experiment , 'd really like see anyone seen \? 've seen film , memory may faulty , remember vehicle slightly meter long , thick 30 40 cm diameter think narrative said propelled dynamite sticks four within 2 , second coming 2 flight max altitude seemed order 50 , hard judge urban fredriksson icl se
jgarland kean ucs mun ca subject comet temporary orbit around jupiter \? lines 26 organization memorial university st john 's nfld , canada article 1993apr19 sq sq com , msb sq sq com \( mark brader \) writes questions answered previous instance , gehrels 3 mentioned earlier posting \? orbital elements comet \( dance files \) p \( au \) 3 e 0 1 cap omega \( 0 \) 243 w \( 0 \) 231 1607 epoch 1977 also , gehrels3 april 1973 83 jupiter radii august 1970 3 jupiter radii 1 jupiter radius 71 , 000 km 44 , 000 mi 0 0005 au 1970 figure seems unlikely actually anything case 1973 figure well \? sorry , perijoves i'm used talking language john garland jgarland kean ucs mun ca
aws iti org \( allen w sherzer \) subject orbital organization evil geniuses better tomorrow lines 20 article joy zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) writes biggest problem orbits alike actually expensive reach satellite another orbit ground cheaper fuel space based sources cheaper reach orbits ground also remember , presence repair supply facility adds value space around put satellite orbit reached ready source supply make cheaper gain benefit economies scale allen lady astor sir , husband would poison coffee ! w churchill madam , wife , would drink 58 days first flight dcx
wingo cspara decnet fedex msfc nasa gov subject nasa wraps organization university houston lines 160 distribution world nntp posting host judy uh edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article 1993apr18 iti org , aws iti org \( allen w sherzer \) writes article judy uh edu wingo cspara decnet fedex msfc nasa gov writes n't care told generally true see every single line item contract sign thing wrap university dennis , worked written proposals worth tens millions customers included government \( including nasa \) , profit non profit companies expected wrap \( usually called fee \) much work involved allocating costing work universities , profits , non profits , even nasa centers commercialization space charged fees part work street one nasa commercialization centers charge fee totally forgot original post posted allen post stated wrap top addition overhead geez post finally admit true , i'm sure competent engineer dennis , clearly lack experience several areas posts show n't understand importance integration large projects also show lack understanding costing efforts shown belief reasonable charge incremental costs everything n't flame , statement come little ol find working integration simply ad attack know employer charge fee may see course fee administration geez allen organization costs heck difference legitimate costs , libraries things must support program wrap originally stated stated wrap top overhead couple sentences say true allen \? sounds like adding overhead rate go ask costing people much fee add project never heard suggest , like president , percentage number like included overhead well dennis said , simply include fee overhead many fee since fee structure change depending customer posted subject allen , state wrap overhead seperate charge admit wrong nasa line item budget every year seen allen get numbers detailed nasa budget dig wrap numbers howl high heaven barking wind allen merely repeated allegations made employee overhead capital nasa integration , dennis , n't overhead nothing reston could dont better cheaper nasa centers work going integration could done better centers apollo integration done msfc turn bad philosophy reston totally wrong allen bunch people completely removed work trying oversee way ever work never worked large scale project ever tried could imagine reston like set apollo \? dennis , reston nasa agency working reduce costs wp 02 billion , centers love much best cover ignore problem reston place would find people actually interested solving problems building station oh full allen one agree jsc screwed big responsible screw people caused replaced make stupid statement like shows deep bias goes come msfc couple weeks find wrong really maybe , people like believe exactly want believe matter facts contrary kinda funny n't someone talks problem like place everything overhead bit experience dennis , realize integration n't overhead single important part successful large scale effort agree integration single important part successful large scale effort completly disagree integration function people work called leadership allen made apollo work final responsibility success apollo held less 50 people leadership responsibility neither organization set reston could take people move jsc msfc could much better job take year reston finally say something problem \? site part process problem would never gotten hand first place one heck lot know allen , one thing know project successful must leadership remember turn reston kept ssf program shambles years \? lack responsibility leadership programs problem lack leadership white house , congress reston nasa symptom greater national problem narrowly focused efforts see space news point demanded change caused problems \? methinks selective facts story refer said nasa people blamed congress suprise suprise fact remains centers support much covered would n't address problems press published story saying reston managers wrong get nasa address overruns \? approve centers cover overruns \? , saying located jsc never would happened first place takes four flights year resupply station cost 500 million flight pay 2 billion year stated friend reston said current station could resupply billion year wrap gone merely points blatent numbers understandably fail see know dennis nasa n't include transport costs comes shuttle budget saying operational costs could cut half plus transport sorry gang deadline satellite someone else going allen 's math little chance hope find time tell us wrong reston ask problems wp 02 addressed time one leadership reston site jsc problem never would happened , totally ignoring lack leadership congress many headed hydra grown nasa true problem agency try change question suit bias indicative position dennis , university alabama huntsville
nicho vnet ibm com \( greg stewart nicholls \) subject biosphere ii reply nicho vnet ibm com disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , ibm news software ureply 3 1 x x nicho vnet ibm com access digex net lines 18 access digex net pat writes article 516 almaden ibm com nicho vnet ibm com writes access digex net pat writes everyone critical b2 \? 's bogus science , promoted 'real' science seems , 's sorta large engineering project science project bingo b2 bench science , rather large scale attempt create series micro 's \? nothing evil 's actual harm 're , represent sig files like strings every yo yo 's got one greg nicholls nicho vnet ibm com \( business \) nicho olympus demon co uk \( private \)
nicho vnet ibm com \( greg stewart nicholls \) subject biosphere ii reply nicho vnet ibm com disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , ibm news software ureply 3 1 x x nicho vnet ibm com access digex net lines 10 access digex net pat writes work privately funded , data belongs n't see either george fred , ibm research division releasing data publish plenty , look sig files like strings every yo yo 's got one greg nicholls nicho vnet ibm com \( business \) nicho olympus demon co uk \( private \)
aws iti org \( allen w sherzer \) subject sixty two thousand \( many read sci space \? \) organization evil geniuses better tomorrow lines 23 article 1993apr15 1 fnalf fnal gov higgins fnalf fnal gov \( bill higgins beam jockey \) writes reid , alas , gives us measure power influence readers sorry , mark think largely result efforts people reading group writing letters making phone calls following happened 1 nasa reprogrammed funds keep nasp alive 1991 2 efforts kill dc x ssrt twice \( feb june last year \) 3 kept job spite heavy lobbying may mark thinking shows readers sci space power influence allen lady astor sir , husband would poison coffee ! w churchill madam , wife , would drink 58 days first flight dcx
helsinki fi \( veikko \) subject astronomy program organization university helsinki lines 20 article galaxy ucr edu ucrengr ucr edu \( kevin marcus \) writes public domain shareware astronomy programs map sky given time , allow locate planets , , forth \? , ftp site get one \? several star map programs available job choose like try anonymous ftp ftp funet fi pub astro pc stars pc solar mac amiga atari regards , veikko
nickh cs cmu edu \( nick haines \) subject ussr reached moon first \? reply gary ke4zv uucp 's message sun , 18 apr 1993 09 10 51 gmt originator nickh snow fox cs cmu edu nntp posting host snow fox cs cmu edu organization school computer science , carnegie mellon university 1993apr7 yang earlham edu dxb105 1993apr12 yang earlham edu 93107 144339saundrsg qucdn queensu ca 1993apr18 091051 14496 ke4zv uucp lines 35 article 1993apr18 091051 14496 ke4zv uucp gary ke4zv uucp \( gary coffman \) writes article 93107 144339saundrsg qucdn queensu ca graydon saundrsg qucdn queensu ca writes turning 'what 's moonbase good for' , ought post 've hundred odd posts go , would think real reason moon base economic since someone space industry presumeably much larger gnp would without space industry , eventually , simply able afford stuff read right , 're saying essence , larger economy , nations discretionary funds waste lunar facility certainly partially case apollo , real lunar colonies probably require continuing military , scientific , commercial reason rather money , \? approach ah , whole point money spent lunar base wasted moon 's like 'd using 1000 \( \? \) bills fuel moon money fund lunar base would spent country base belonged 's way funding high tech research , like darpa good excuse fund various fields research , pretense crucial defense country , like esprit good excuse ec fund research , pretense 's good pan european cooperation maybe think government funded research waste money \( fact , i'm pretty sure \) , count investment spending , boost economy \( look size multiplier \) nick haines nickh cmu edu
nickh cs cmu edu \( nick haines \) subject shuttle launch question reply head cfa harvard edu 's message sun , 18 apr 1993 22 44 14 gmt originator nickh snow fox cs cmu edu nntp posting host snow fox cs cmu edu organization school computer science , carnegie mellon university 1993apr18 784 head cfa harvard edu distribution sci lines 17 article 1993apr18 784 head cfa harvard edu head cfa harvard edu \( jonathan mcdowell \) writes understanding basically known bugs warning system software things checked n't right values yet n't set till launch , rather fix code possibly introduce new bugs , tell crew , see warning 213 liftoff , ignore it' good grief thought shuttle software known well engineered actually case , every member programming team taken shot \( given 've heard shuttle software rated level 5 maturity , strongly doubt case \) nick haines nickh cmu edu
kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov subject give 1 billion first year long moon residents \? organization nasa jsc gm2 , space shuttle program office x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 17 gene wright \( gene theporch raider net \) wrote announce reward 1 billion would go first corporation successfully keeps least 1 person alive moon year 'd see inexpensive popular technologies begin developed 'd different kind space race ! i'm advocate idea funding space station work , throw around 1 billion figure reward suggest increase lunar reward 3 billion would encourage private industry invest space , one nasa 's primary goals ken jenks , nasa jsc gm2 , space shuttle program office kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov \( 713 \) 483 4368 better faster cheaper daniel goldin , nasa administrator
pjs euclid jpl nasa gov \( peter j scott \) subject orion drive vacuum \? organization jet propulsion laboratory , nasa caltech lines 19 distribution world reply pjs euclid jpl nasa gov nntp posting host euclid jpl nasa gov article 1993apr18 sfu ca , leigh palmer palmer sfu ca writes article 663 zoo toronto edu henry spencer , henry zoo toronto edu writes national air space museum prototype film , years ago , prototype display film continuously repeating great ! 'll visit national air space museum end month wife , also working general atomic time netnews enriched life sorry put plans , three weeks ago n't would known look , course , space exhibits pretty thoroughly something like would caught attention instantly news peter scott , nasa jpl caltech brain news questions \? \( pjs euclid jpl nasa gov \)
nickh cs cmu edu \( nick haines \) subject vast bandwidth runs nasa thread \( nasa wraps \) reply wingo cspara decnet fedex msfc nasa gov 's message 18 apr 1993 13 56 cdt originator nickh snow fox cs cmu edu nntp posting host snow fox cs cmu edu organization school computer science , carnegie mellon university judy uh edu 1993apr18 iti org judy uh edu lines 12 article judy uh edu , dennis writes zillion lines response article 1993apr18 iti org , allen wrote zillion lines response article judy uh edu , dennis wrote another zillion lines response allen hey , guys take email , talk politics space , alt flame , alt music pop eat patrol , anywhere , sci space thread lost scientific content many moons ago nick haines nickh cmu edu
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject orion drive vacuum \? organization u toronto zoology lines 17 article elroy jpl nasa gov pjs euclid jpl nasa gov writes national air space museum prototype film , years ago , prototype display great ! 'll visit national air space museum end month sorry put plans , three weeks ago n't would known look , course , space exhibits pretty thoroughly something like would caught attention instantly n't especially prominent , recall however , quite possibly 's longer display nasm , like museums , much stuff display , rotate displays occasionally work one man 's work henry spencer u toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
prb access digex com \( pat \) subject conference manned lunar exploration may 7 crystal city organization express access online communications , greenbelt md usa lines 9 distribution na nntp posting host access digex net aw st brief blurb manned lunar exploration confernce may 7th crystal city virginia , auspices aiaa anyone know \? much , attend \? \? \? \? anyone want go \? pat
18084tm msu edu \( tom \) subject space clippers launched x added forwarded space digest organization via international space university original sender isu vacation venari cs cmu edu distribution sci lines 14 space clippers launched successfully first saw , thought second headline star pliers found srb recently y'know , sometimes wire built \) tommy mac tom mcwilliams 517 355 2178 wk radius vision increases , 18084tm ibm cl msu edu 336 9591 hm circumference mystery grows
baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov \( ron baalke \) subject magellan update 04 16 93 organization jet propulsion laboratory lines 25 distribution world nntp posting host kelvin jpl nasa gov keywords magellan , jpl news software vax vms vnews 1 41 forwarded doug griffith , magellan project manager magellan status report april 16 , 1993 1 magellan mission venus continues normally , gathering gravity data provides measurement density variations upper mantle correlated surface spacecraft performance nominal 2 magellan completed orbits venus 39 days end cycle 4 start transition experiment 3 significant activities expected next week , preparations aerobraking continue schedule 4 monday morning , april 19 , moon occult venus interrupt tracking magellan 68 minutes ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab \) 525 3684 telos aweto new zealand pasadena , ca 91109 part caterpillar part vegetable
dennisn ecs comm mot com \( dennis newkirk \) subject space class teachers near chicago organization motorola distribution usa nntp posting host 145 1 146 43 lines 59 posting friend without internet access please inquire phone number address listed space teaching 's newest frontier sponsored planetary studies foundation planetary studies foundation sponsoring one week class teachers called space teaching 's newest frontier class held sheraton elk grove , illinois june 14 june 18 participants complete program earn two semester hours graduate credit aurora college please note class intended teachers , restricted teachers class , united states space foundation , teach use space exploration teaching tool get students excited learning interested science classroom topics covered class include living space space shuttle space station nasa spinoffs benefit society principles aeronautics solar system also simulated zero g training underwater space station simulation , model rocket launches , observing sessions harper college observatory , field trips adler planetarium museum science industry featured speakers include jerry brown colorado based united states space foundation debbie brown nasa lewis research center cleveland , ohio additional instructors provided planetary studies foundation social highlight class dinner banquet featuring space shuttle payload specialist byron , currently president payload systems , inc member crew sts 9 flew november 1983 banquet scheduled thursday , june 17 registration fee includes transportation field trips , materials , continental , , special dinner banquet guest tickets dinner banquet also available additional charge receive two hours graduate credit additional information class , contact science learning center \( 708 \) 359 write planetary studies foundation w rd , il dennis newkirk \( dennisn ecs comm mot com \) motorola , land mobile products sector schaumburg , il
vdoe386 vak12ed edu \( george hastings \) subject soviet space book organization virginia 's public education network \( richmond \) lines 13 received copies 1990 1991 , well soviet space 1990 space station mir handbook aerospace ambassadors problem i'm getting ready fax material huntsville , 'll include printout inquiry george hastings vdoe386 vak12ed edu space science teacher 22 compuserve com 's mathematics science center bbs 804 343 fun , 's hartman street office 804 343 probably richmond , va fax 804 343 6529 science !
vdoe386 vak12ed edu \( george hastings \) subject space nets organization virginia 's public education network \( richmond \) lines 17 run views bbs , local operation running software capability link 1500 bbs 's u canada started couple months ago , sub us currently subscribed ten boards , added get news articles internet , via ftp nasa sites , variety aerospace related periodicals get fair amount questions space topics students access system george hastings vdoe386 vak12ed edu space science teacher 22 compuserve com 's mathematics science center bbs 804 343 fun , 's hartman street office 804 343 probably richmond , va fax 804 343 6529 science !
nsmca aurora alaska edu subject give 1 billion first year long moon residents \? article aurora 1993apr19 1 organization university alaska fairbanks lines 21 nntp posting host acad3 alaska edu article 6zv82b2w165w theporch raider net , gene theporch raider net \( gene wright \) writes continuin talk end space age complaints government large cost , try something read might work announce reward 1 billion would go first corporation successfully keeps least 1 person alive moon year 'd see inexpensive popular technologies begin developed 'd different kind space race ! gene theporch raider net \( gene wright \) theporch raider net 615 297 7951 macinteresteds nashville true , 'd go friends could pool resources maybe make prize kind liek solar car race australia anybody game contest ! michael adams , nsmca acad3 alaska edu i'm high , jacked
nsmca aurora alaska edu subject give 1 billion first year long moon residents \? article aurora 1993apr19 1 organization university alaska fairbanks lines 28 nntp posting host acad3 alaska edu article 1993apr19 aio jsc nasa gov , kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov writes gene wright \( gene theporch raider net \) wrote announce reward 1 billion would go first corporation successfully keeps least 1 person alive moon year 'd see inexpensive popular technologies begin developed 'd different kind space race ! i'm advocate idea funding space station work , throw around 1 billion figure reward suggest increase lunar reward 3 billion would encourage private industry invest space , one nasa 's primary goals ken jenks , nasa jsc gm2 , space shuttle program office kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov \( 713 \) 483 4368 better faster cheaper daniel goldin , nasa administrator also would maybe get russians involved resources part need capital goal wonder renting russians resources would \? michael adams , nsmca acad3 alaska edu i'm high , jacked
rintintin colorado edu \( farmer ted \) subject space debris nntp posting host rintintin colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 14 buy nasa langley yes ! give name would greatly appreciate rich earth cradle mind , cannot live forever cradle k e father russian astronautics
eos arc nasa gov \( adam r \) subject conference manned lunar exploration may 7 crystal city organization nasa ames research center distribution na lines 14 prb access digex com \( pat \) writes aw st brief blurb manned lunar exploration confernce may 7th crystal city virginia , auspices aiaa anyone know \? much , attend \? \? \? \? anyone want go \? pat got something mail aiaa cost 75 speakers include john pike , young , ian
daviss sweetpea jsc nasa gov \( f davis \) subject conference manned lunar exploration may 7 crystal city organization distribution na lines 107 article access digex net , prb access digex com \( pat \) writes aw st brief blurb manned lunar exploration confernce may 7th crystal city virginia , auspices aiaa anyone know \? much , attend \? \? \? \? anyone want go \? pat selected excerpts invitation registration form sent without permission , typo 's mine low cost lunar access one day conference explore means benefits human lunar program friday , may 7 , 1993 hyatt crystal city hotel arlington , va conference low cost lunar access conference forum exchange ideas initiate structure affordable human lunar program inherent low cost programs principle implemented rapidly meet objectives within short time frame deleted conference program \( preliminary \) washington room 9 00 9 10 opening remarks dr alan 9 10 9 30 address mr brian 9 30 10 00 u policy outlook john pike , american federation scientists discussion prospects introduction new low cost lunar initiative view uncertain direction space program taking 10 00 12 00 noon morning sessions presentations architectures , systems , operational concepts emphasis mission approaches produce significant beyond apollo yet judged affordable present era severely constrained budgets room 12 00 1 30 p lunch guest speaker mr john w young , nasa special assistant former astronaut washington room 1 30 2 00 p international policy outlook ian \( invited \) esa , washington office prevailing situation respect international space commitments , insights preconditions european entry new agreements , would required cooperative lunar program 2 00 3 30 p afternoon sessions presentations scientific objectives , benefits , applications emphasis placed scientific technological value lunar program registration form fee us 75 00 mail address american institute aeronautics astronautics dept washington , dc fax \( 202 \) 646 says register site aiaa annual meeting friday morning , may 7 , 7 30 10 30 sounds interesting bad ca n't go ! ! ! ! steven davis daviss sweetpea jsc nasa gov \( \) db mcdonnell douglas n't represent vv space systems company anybody \( \) houston division
xrcjd resolve gsfc nasa gov \( charles j divine \) subject space station radio commercial organization nasa gsfc greenbelt maryland lines 13 brief political cultural item radio station washington classical music station large audience among high officials \( elected otherwise \) imagine radio station advertises mercedes , diamond jewelry , expensive resorts \( truthfully \) trident submarines morning heard commercial space station project n't catch advertiser guess 're pulling stops chuck divine
xrcjd resolve gsfc nasa gov \( charles j divine \) subject science news article federal r organization nasa gsfc greenbelt maryland lines 8 pointer article current science news article federal r funding briefly , r shifted gaining current competitive advantage things like military work much commercial utility chuck divine
schaefer sal sun121 usc edu \( peter schaefer \) subject give 1 billion first year long moon residents \? organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 29 distribution world nntp posting host sal sun121 usc edu article 1993apr19 1 aurora alaska edu , nsmca aurora alaska edu writes article 6zv82b2w165w theporch raider net , gene theporch raider net \( gene wright \) writes continuin talk end space age complaints government large cost , try something read might work announce reward 1 billion would go first corporation successfully keeps least 1 person alive moon year 'd see inexpensive popular technologies begin developed 'd different kind space race ! gene theporch raider net \( gene wright \) theporch raider net 615 297 7951 macinteresteds nashville true , 'd go friends could pool resources maybe make prize kind liek solar car race australia anybody game contest ! michael adams , nsmca acad3 alaska edu i'm high , jacked oh gee , billion dollars ! 'd enough cover cost feasability study ! happy , happy , joy ! joy ! peter f schaefer
mike tandem com \( mike \) subject last call w wizard position tandem \( cupertino ca \) nntp posting host 130 252 132 77 organization tandem computers incorporated , cupertino , ca lines 28 well , got responses interviews interesting however , case posting overlooked incredibly talented person mea culpa posting mike , 're looking someone special tandem computers currently looking software wizard help us architect implement fault tolerant generalized instrumentation subsystem part proprietary operating system kernel \( kernel \) kernel proprietary , loosely coupled parallel , message based operating system kernel wide connectivity open standards key individual contributor role , work developers working various components transaction management facility background needs encompass following 4 categories \( 3 4 would excellent \) category 1 math working knowledge statistics , real analysis , used experimental physics chemistry , engineering category 2 working knowledge telemetry issues e time series , , statistical correlation data streams category 3 integration test instrumentation systems test , e payloads , flight modules , etc category 4 software engineering programming skills , algorithms , systems software techniques please send resume mike , tandem computers ct , loc 100 27 , cupertino , ca 95014 fax \( 408 \) 285 e mail mike tandem com
higgins fnalf fnal gov \( bill higgins beam jockey \) subject conference manned lunar exploration may 7 crystal city organization fermi national accelerator laboratory lines 31 distribution na nntp posting host fnalf fnal gov article 1993apr19 aio jsc nasa gov , daviss sweetpea jsc nasa gov \( f davis \) writes article access digex net , prb access digex com \( pat \) writes aw st brief blurb manned lunar exploration confernce may 7th crystal city virginia , auspices aiaa anyone know \? much , attend \? \? \? \? selected excerpts invitation registration form sent without permission , typo 's mine thanks typing , steven sounds like fall back strategy session wanted add copy brochure arrived flattering cover letter invitations extended demonstrated strong committment space program development influential advancement sincerely hope able attend wow ! wonder contributions conquest space convinced send letter \? hope decide go , pat net use eyes ears bill higgins put man moon , ca n't fermilab put man moon \? bill higgins fnal fnal gov put man moon , ca n't higgins fnal bitnet put woman moon \? bill higgins
higgins fnalf fnal gov \( bill higgins beam jockey \) subject science news article federal r organization fermi national accelerator laboratory lines 24 nntp posting host fnalf fnal gov article 764 skates gsfc nasa gov , xrcjd resolve gsfc nasa gov \( charles j divine \) writes pointer article current science news article federal r funding briefly , r shifted gaining current competitive advantage things like military work much commercial utility chuck divine disclaimer opinion mine represent views fermilab , universities research association , department energy , 49th ward regular science fiction organization \) ' ' , , ' , \) \( \) \( \) zap ! \( \) \( \) bill higgins fermi national accelerator laboratory bitnet higgins fnal bitnet internet higgins fnal fnal gov span hepnet 43011 higgins
c egalon larc nasa gov \( claudio oliveira egalon \) subject space debris organization nasa langley research center lines 10 distribution world reply c egalon larc nasa gov \( claudio oliveira egalon \) nntp posting host tahiti larc nasa gov , , potter , , \? others ring bell might involved well sometime ago langley teaching course space debris , memory , l think even reference book subject c egalon larc nasa gov claudio oliveira egalon
zowie daedalus stanford edu \( craig powderkeg deforest \) subject cold gas tanks sounding rockets organization stanford center space science astrophysics lines 29 nntp posting host daedalus stanford edu reply ukc ac uk 's message 16 apr 93 14 28 07 gmt article eagle ukc ac uk ukc ac uk \( r lorenz \) writes anyone know size cold gas roll control thruster tanks sounding rockets \? well , first work much cold gas need , make tanks big enough sounding rocket payload , telemetry , guidance , etc etc telescope cluster , weighs around 1100 pounds uses freon jets steering pulse width modulated controller alignment \( ie eight minutes space , jets pretty much continuously firing 10 duty cycle \) jets also need kill residual angular momentum spin , flip payload around look sun two freon tanks , holding 5 liters freon \( i'm speaking memory last flight \) ground crew wsmr choose much freon use based black magic algorithm extra tank modules bolt payload stack give idea order magnitude cold gas quantity really need know , send email 'll try get touch ground crew people cheers , craig drink soap ! dilute dilute ! ok !
sfsuvax1 sfsu edu \( arthur chandler \) subject stereo pix planets \? organization california state university , sacramento lines 5 anyone tell might find stereo images planetary planetary satellite surfaces \? gifs preferred , i'm especially interested stereos surfaces phobos , deimos , mars moon \( order \) thanks
gnb leo bby com au \( gregory n bond \) subject give 1 billion first year long moon residents \? reply gene theporch raider net 's message sun , 18 apr 1993 19 29 40 gmt nntp posting host leo gw organization burdett , buckeridge young , melbourne , australia lines 32 article 6zv82b2w165w theporch raider net gene theporch raider net \( gene wright \) writes announce reward 1 billion would go first corporation successfully keeps least 1 person alive moon year 1b offer , problem keeping alive highly likely involve lunar environment ! oh dear , landed roof acme 's base died sad gosh , leaves us oldest residents quick boss , slime back , time 've got tank ! man guns ! one could imagine sorts technologies developed sort environment greg \( i'm kidding , btw , although problem winner takes prizes encourages sorts undesirable behaviour witness military procurement programs 1b probably far small reward encourage would expensive high risk proposition \) gregory bond gnb bby com au burdett buckeridge young ltd melbourne australia knox 's 386 slick fox sox , knox 's box knox 's box quick plays lots lsl 's sick ! \( apologies john iron bar mackin \)
jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu \( josh hopkins \) subject conference manned lunar exploration may 7 crystal city distribution na organization university illinois urbana lines 18 prb access digex com \( pat \) writes aw st brief blurb manned lunar exploration confernce may 7th crystal city virginia , auspices aiaa anyone know \? much , attend \? \? \? \? good summary posted \( thanks \) , wanted add another comment remeber reading comment general dynamics tied , connection proposal early manned landing sorry n't rember heard , i'm fairly sure somewhere reputable anyone else know anything angle \? hrumph n't send anything \( josh hopkins jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu find way make one attributed hannibal
prb access digex com \( pat \) subject biosphere ii organization express access online communications usa lines 22 nntp posting host access digex net article 19930419 166 almaden ibm com nicho vnet ibm com writes access digex net pat writes work privately funded , data belongs n't see either george fred , ibm research division releasing data publish plenty , look never said n't publish , merely data n't publish , one cases ibm research publishes plenty , 's ended 2 nobel prizes last 10 years , projects deemed company confidential att bell labs , keeps lots stuff private , like algorithm private entitled pleases , within bounds law , keepers temple science , please shove pointy little heads shaped posterior orifices pat read sa article karl \( sp \? \? \? \)
jmcocker eos ncsu edu \( mitch \) subject help need addresses originator jmcocker 100lez eos ncsu edu reply jmcocker eos ncsu edu \( mitch \) organization north carolina state university , project eos lines 21 hi , i'm trying get mailing addresses following companies specifically , need addresses personnel offices like bureau companies orbital sciences corp \( sp \? \) spacehab , inc \( know one somewhere seattle , wa , least part \) space industries , inc \( somewhere houston \) space enterprises inc anybody could point right direction , would appreciative prefer email response , post summary sufficient interest exists thanks , mitch jmcocker eos ncsu edu
tffreeba indyvax iupui edu subject give 1 billion first year long moon residents \? lines 42 article 1993apr20 bby com au , gnb leo bby com au \( gregory n bond \) writes article 6zv82b2w165w theporch raider net gene theporch raider net \( gene wright \) writes announce reward 1 billion would go first corporation successfully keeps least 1 person alive moon year 1b offer , problem keeping alive highly likely involve lunar environment ! oh dear , landed roof acme 's base died sad gosh , leaves us oldest residents quick boss , slime back , time 've got tank ! man guns ! one could imagine sorts technologies developed sort environment greg \( i'm kidding , btw , although problem winner takes prizes encourages sorts undesirable behaviour witness military procurement programs 1b probably far small reward encourage would expensive high risk proposition \) gregory bond gnb bby com au burdett buckeridge young ltd melbourne australia hey ! dad old hangar judy old rockets attic , let 's put lunar program ! sounds good , let 's play game would reasonable reward \? companies would reasonable shot pulling feat \? budget would reward come \? time limit \? would straight cash money award enough throw say exclusive mining rights first fifty years \? get idea 'd like play n't clue answers tom freebairn refuses understand math probably never get figured
phoenix princeton edu ! carlosn \( carlos g niederstrasser \) subject double sonic booms originator news nimaster nntp posting host princeton edu organization princeton university lines 16 every time read shuttle landing mention double sonic booms taken various relevant classes , several ideas come , none convincing exactly causes \? one time , constant one like supersonic shockwave constantly produced plane , hear goes \? carlos g niederstrasser two things infinite , princeton planetary society universe human stupidity , i'm sure former einstein carlosn phoenix princeton edu space phoenix princeton edu ad astra per
jhwitten cs ruu nl \( jurriaan wittenberg \) subject magellan update 04 16 93 organization utrecht university , dept computer science keywords magellan , jpl lines 29 kelvin jpl nasa gov baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov \( ron baalke \) writes forwarded doug griffith , magellan project manager magellan status report april 16 , 1993 2 magellan completed orbits venus 39 days end cycle 4 start transition experiment sorry think missed bit info transition experiment \? 4 monday morning , april 19 , moon occult venus interrupt tracking magellan 68 minutes mean loss data magellan transmit data later \? \? btw nasa cut connection magellan \? \? looking forward day curious believe something funding goverment \( rather funding \) ok 's see guys around , jurriaan jhwitten cs ruu nl jurriaan wittenberg department utrecht netherlands
jennise opus dgi com \( goddess peripherals \) subject looking little research help organization dynamic graphics inc lines 19 distribution usa nntp posting host opus dgi com hi , i'm writing science fiction script i'm looking answers questions regarding moon earth starting point impossible situation checked professor berkeley response helpful ca n't happen enjoy playing unusual ideas willing answer questions please contact via e mail \( jennise dgi com \) get extremely annoyed screen tele plays ignore basic facts computers i'm determined scientifically accurate sorry vague , 'd like protect idea much i'm ready sell \( hopefully \) jennise
jennise opus dgi com \( goddess peripherals \) subject looking little research help addendum organization dynamic graphics inc lines 10 distribution usa nntp posting host opus dgi com sorry forgot ps right sight getting news two weeks behind 's kind necessary \( \) responses sent directly thanks lot jennise jennise dgi com
nyx cs du edu \( dean adams \) subject ariane v 56 mission data organization university denver , dept math comp sci lines 114 arianespace flight 56 \( flight v 56 originally intended carry hughes hs 601 series galaxy iv satellite , payload withdrawn prior flight \) ariane launch scheduled place astra 1c satellites improved geostationary transfer orbit \( gto \) , inclination reduced 5 degrees apogee altitude increased 150 km 28th launch ariane 4 first configuration , 2 liquid strap boosters \( pal \) launched newly ariane launch complex 2 , kourou french launch vehicle performance requirement mission 3 , 147 kg 2 , 944 kg represents satellite mass total vehicle mass liftoff 361 , 778 kg required orbit characteristics altitude 200 km apogee altitude 36 , 160 km injection inclination 5 degrees ariane lift flight 56 scheduled thursday , april 29 , 1993 , soon possible within following launch window kourou time gmt \( 04 30 93 \) washington , dc 21 52 22 50 00 52 01 50 20 52 21 50 launch vehicle ariane three stage liquid fueled launcher two liquid fueled strap boosters first stage \( \) built , powered 4 liquid fueled viking v engines second stage \( \) built powered single viking iv engine viking iv v engines manufactured sep first second stages use fuel third stage \( h10 \) built , powered h2 o2 fueled hm 7b engine built sep two strap boosters \( pal \) powered viking vi engine , also built sep , use fuel first second stages fully assembled launch vehicle stands 56 meters high pad uses type 01 ariane short payload fairing flight profile 02 21 liquid strap booster jettison 03 11 first stage separation 03 18 second stage ignition 04 10 fairing jettison 05 21 second stage separation 05 26 third stage ignition 17 30 third stage shutdown orbit injection 19 56 astra 1c separation 22 36 adapter separation 24 26 separation 28 47 end ariane mission 56 payloads astra 1c third spacecraft fleet des satellites broadcast direct tv homes europe built hughes , second hs 601 launched ariane total mass lift 2 , 790 kg mass geo insertion 1 , 700 kg dry mass 1 , 180 kg board power 3 , 300 w \( end life \) nominal lifetime 15 years span solar panels 21 orbit position 19 2 degrees east , africa transmission capacity 34 channels ku band , via 18 transponders flight operations solar array deployment 6 days lift first 3 apogee motor firings 40 hours lift 4th apogee first spacecraft built european space industry benefit world amateur radio community total mass lift 154 kg mass geo insertion 98 kg dry mass 97 kg board power 42 w \( end life \) nominal lifetime 3 years spacecraft dimensions 1 1m x orbital parameters km , 0 inclination , period 17 30 transmission capacity band 1 transponder 2 446 ghz vhf uhf 145 435 mhz launch coverage ariane missions broadcast live via satellite kourou coverage begins 30 minutes launch continues payloads deployed mission likely carried us galaxy 6 , however could galaxy 7 another satellite \( european satellite normally used ariane coverage \? \) dean adams
nsmca aurora alaska edu subject stereo pix planets \? lines 15 nntp posting host acad3 alaska edu organization university alaska fairbanks article 1993apr20 csus edu , sfsuvax1 sfsu edu \( arthur chandler \) writes anyone tell might find stereo images planetary planetary satellite surfaces \? gifs preferred , i'm especially interested stereos surfaces phobos , deimos , mars moon \( order \) thanks ames arc nasa gov sure subdirectory thou michael adams , nsmca acad3 alaska edu i'm high , jacked ps know gif area well space info
nicho vnet ibm com \( greg stewart nicholls \) subject give 1 billion first year long moon residents \? reply nicho vnet ibm com disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , ibm news software ureply 3 1 x x nicho vnet ibm com 1993apr20 724 indyvax iupui edu lines 14 1993apr20 724 indyvax iupui edu tffreeba indyvax iupui edu writes let 's play game would reasonable reward \? companies would reasonable shot pulling feat \? budget would reward come \? time limit \? would straight cash money award enough throw say exclusive mining rights first fifty years \? get idea cash award ok time limit would nice ca n't give away mining rights \( assuming 's anything mine \) n't sig files like strings every yo yo 's got one greg nicholls nicho vnet ibm com \( business \) nicho olympus demon co uk \( private \)
aws iti org \( allen w sherzer \) subject give 1 billion first year long moon residents \? organization evil geniuses better tomorrow lines 24 article sal sun121 usc edu schaefer sal sun121 usc edu \( peter schaefer \) writes announce reward 1 billion would go first corporation successfully keeps least 1 person alive moon year oh gee , billion dollars ! 'd enough cover cost feasability study ! happy , happy , joy ! joy ! depends assume existance working ssto like dc , billion would enough put quarter million pounds stuff moon mass went send equipment make lox transfer vehicle , could send lot either way , lot needed prize n't big enough warrent developing ssto , enough vehicle exists allen lady astor sir , husband would poison coffee ! w churchill madam , wife , would drink 57 days first flight dcx
nsmca aurora alaska edu subject moon colony prize race ! 6 billion total \? lines 26 nntp posting host acad3 alaska edu organization university alaska fairbanks think prize classes following large corp small corp company \( based reported earnings \? \) large government \( gnp \) small \( political clout gnp \? \) large organization \( planetary society \? \? \) small organization \( alot small orgs \) organization things would probably non profit liek \? \? course means prize might go larger get \? \? basically make prize \( total purse \) 6 billion , divided class winners fair \? would seperate organization set monitor events , umpire watch safety violations \( maybe , want risk thier lives let \? \) ideas \? \? michael adams , nsmca acad3 alaska edu i'm high , jacked
rick uucp \( richard \) subject read sci space without netnews organization system \( 617 \) 625 v 32 v 42bis lines 27 article 1 cs cmu edu mwm cs cmu edu \( mark maimone \) writes article permanet org mark prado p2 f349 n109 z1 permanet org \( mark prado \) writes anyone knows anyone else would like get sci space , n't internet feed \( cryptic internet feed \) , would willing feed kudos mark generous offer , already exists large \( email based \) forwarding system sci space posts space digest mirrors sci space exactly , provides simple two way communication think mark talking making available people n't email first place anybody boston area wants sci space feed honest gosh uucp \( weird offline \) , let know 'll also hand logins anyone wants one , especially boston chapter nss \( keep forgetting attend \) questions , comments space request isu isunet edu mark maimone phone 1 \( 412 \) 268 carnegie mellon computer science email mwm cmu edu richard rick uucp 617 625 v 32 v 42bis think ! ! rick massachusetts
organization queen 's university kingston graydon saundrsg qucdn queensu ca subject ussr reached moon first \? dxb105 aries 1993apr7 yang earlham edu dxb105 1993apr12 yang earlham edu 93107 144339saundrsg qucdn queensu ca 1993apr18 091051 14496 ke4zv uucp lines 38 article 1993apr18 091051 14496 ke4zv uucp , gary ke4zv uucp \( gary coffman \) says article 93107 144339saundrsg qucdn queensu ca graydon saundrsg qucdn queensu ca writes turning 'what 's moonbase good for' , ought post 've hundred odd posts go , would think real reason moon base economic since someone space industry presumeably much larger gnp would without space industry , eventually , simply able afford stuff read right , 're saying essence , larger economy , nations discretionary funds waste lunar facility certainly partially case apollo , real lunar colonies probably require continuing military , scientific , commercial reason rather money , \? approach assuming wo n't moon base unless makes profit , actually , well , gives larger gnp leads able spend money military , including gosh wow space stuff \( assuming 's profitable , rather paying \) 's conceivable luna military purpose , 's possible luna commercial purpose , 's likely luna scientific purpose next several hundred years least therefore , lunar bases predicated funding levels little different found antarctic bases put 200 person base moon 30 million year \? even use grad students \? might able run one put , hardly think least couple centuries significant commerical activity moon \? graydon
aws iti org \( allen w sherzer \) subject dc x update \? \? \? organization evil geniuses better tomorrow lines 25 article schumach convex convex com schumach convex com \( richard schumacher \) writes would sub orbital version suitable \( \) use sounding rocket \? dc x today n't suitable however , sdio funds reusable sounding rocket always sdio 's goal thank ghod ! thought spacelifter would definitely bastard son nls lot going reports due soon favorable bush briefing right people paying however , public support still critical politics need keep constant pressure elected officials allen lady astor sir , husband would poison coffee ! w churchill madam , wife , would drink 57 days first flight dcx
aws iti org \( allen w sherzer \) subject dc x update \? \? \? organization evil geniuses better tomorrow lines 122 article angus mi org dragon angus mi org writes exactly hover test done , early mid june tv networks carry really want see think public wants see carry write ask \? reach f national news media abc world news tonight face nation 7 west street cbs news new york , ny street , nw 212 887 4040 washington , dc 20036 202 457 associated press good morning america 50 rockefeller plaza abc news new york , ny 1965 broadway national desk \( 212 621 1600 \) new york , ny foreign desk \( 212 621 \) 212 496 4800 washington bureau \( 202 828 6400 \) larry king live tv cbs evening news cnn 524 w 57th street 111 massachusetts avenue , nw new york , ny washington , dc 212 975 3693 202 898 7900 cbs morning larry king show radio 524 w 57th street mutual broadcasting new york , ny jefferson davis highway 212 975 arlington , va 703 685 christian science monitor csm publishing society los angeles times one norway street times mirror square boston , 02115 los angeles , ca 800 225 800 528 cnn macneil lehrer one cnn center p box 2626 box washington , dc atlanta , ga 703 998 404 827 1500 macneil lehrer cnn tv washington bureau 356 w street 111 massachusetts avenue , nw new york , ny washington , dc 212 560 202 898 7900 crossfire nbc news cnn 4001 nebraska avenue , nw 111 massachusetts avenue , nw washington , dc 20036 washington , dc 202 885 4200 202 898 7951 202 362 \( fax \) morning edition things considered national public radio street , nw washington , dc 20036 202 822 2000 united press international 1400 eye street , nw washington , dc 202 898 8000 new york times u news world report 229 w street 2400 n street , nw new york , ny washington , dc 212 556 202 955 2000 212 556 7415 new york times usa today washington bureau 1000 wilson boulevard eye street , nw , 7th floor arlington , va washington , dc 703 276 3400 202 862 0300 newsweek wall street journal 444 madison avenue 200 liberty street new york , ny new york , ny 212 350 4000 212 416 2000 nightline washington post abc news 1150 15th street , nw 47 w street washington , dc new york , ny 202 344 6000 212 887 nightline washington week review ted tv abc news p box 2626 , nw washington , dc washington , dc 20036 703 998 2626 202 887 week david abc news , nw washington , dc 20036 202 887 time magazine time warner , inc time life building rockefeller center new york , ny 212 522 1212 lady astor sir , husband would poison coffee ! w churchill madam , wife , would drink 57 days first flight dcx
loss fs7 ece cmu edu \( doug loss \) subject jemison star trek organization electrical computer engineering , carnegie mellon lines 7 saw newspaper last night dr mae jemison , first black woman space \( 's physician chemical engineer flew endeavour last year \) appear transporter operator star trek next generation episode week may 31 's hardly space science , know , 's interesting doug loss
polaris cv nrao edu \( larry \) subject russian email contacts reply nsmca aurora alaska edu 's message sat , 17 apr 1993 12 52 09 gmt organization national radio astronomy observatory lines 32 usually possible reach people iki \( institute space research \) moscow writing bitnet machine esa darmstadt , germany iki dedicated phone line machine someone logs regularly retrieve mail addition , several user accounts belonging russian scientific institutions user com commercial enterprise based san francisco provides email services former ussr example , com physics institute academy sciences \( initials russian , course \) connections cost russians real dollars , even received messages , please n't send anything voluminous frivilous larry r national radio astronomy observatory addresses \( internet \) nrao edu \( fax \) 1 804 296 charlottesville 1 304 456 2200 green bank \( mail \) 2015 ivy road , charlottesville , va 22903 , usa \( phone \) 1 804 296 office , 804 973 home cho 1 304 456 2226 , lab , apt gb
esa bitnet vm gmd de subject message space digest x added forwarded space digest organization via international space university original sender isu vacation venari cs cmu edu distribution sci lines 58 joint press release esa un 18 93 paris , 19 april 1993 un esa joint training course satellite applications held italy , 19 30 april united nations european space agency \( esa \) jointly training course applications satellite data gathered european remote sensing satellite \( ers 1 \) , held , italy , 19 30 april training course discuss applications satellite data concerning natural resources , renewable energy environment training course , organised benefit african experts , hosted , european space agency 's establishment , responsible coordination users data esa 's remote sensing satellite twenty four experts field remote sensing , selected 19 countries northern , western central africa , three regional african centres , attend two week session course focus remote sensing techniques data applications , particularly ers 1 data ers 1 satellite , developed esa launched 1991 european ariane launcher , carries advanced radar instrument first series radar remote sensing missions ensure availability data beyond year 2000 aim training course increase potential experts using practical applications radar remote sensing systems natural resources , renewable energy environment , particular emphasis applications geology mineral prospecting , oceanography near coastal areas , agriculture , forestry meteorology education practical training programme developed jointly united nations esa facilities technical support , well information documents training course , provided agency training course include high level experts european african organisations active remote sensing applications funds training course provided united nations trust fund new renewable sources energy primary contributor fund government italy similar training course planned latin american experts
baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov \( ron baalke \) subject magellan update 04 16 93 organization jet propulsion laboratory lines 29 distribution world nntp posting host kelvin jpl nasa gov keywords magellan , jpl news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article 1993apr20 cs ruu nl , jhwitten cs ruu nl \( jurriaan wittenberg \) writes kelvin jpl nasa gov baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov \( ron baalke \) writes 4 monday morning , april 19 , moon occult venus interrupt tracking magellan 68 minutes mean loss data magellan transmit data later \? \? gravity data collected real time recorded tape recorder however , need collect gravity every 3rd 4th orbit , real data loss moon blocks transmission short btw nasa cut connection magellan \? \? looking forward day curious believe something funding goverment \( rather funding \) aerobraking starts may 25 expected last 70 days funding provided \( 8 million dollars \) extend mission high resolution gravity data , mission last october 1994 otherwise , mission end coming july ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab \) 525 3684 telos aweto new zealand pasadena , ca 91109 part caterpillar part vegetable
higgins fnalf fnal gov \( bill higgins beam jockey \) subject conference manned lunar exploration may 7 crystal city organization fermi national accelerator laboratory lines 25 distribution na nntp posting host fnalf fnal gov article news cso uiuc edu , jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu \( josh hopkins \) writes remeber reading comment general dynamics tied , connection proposal early manned landing sorry n't rember heard , i'm fairly sure somewhere reputable anyone else know anything angle \? general chairman paul , official general dynamics emphasis seems scaled , fast plan put people moon impoverished spaceflight funding climate 'd think would golden opportunity lots work modest money using agressive series robot spacecraft , 's hint brochure hrumph n't send anything \( 're hanging right people , apparently bill higgins , beam jockey i'm gonna keep writing songs fermilab write song bitnet higgins fnal bitnet makes guys detroit internet higgins fnal fnal gov draw cars span hepnet 43011 higgins put 'em john
cdx mot com subject many read sci space \? nntp posting host tom mac prds cdx mot com organization motorola codex lines 25 article mojo eng umd edu sysmgr king eng umd edu \( doug mohney \) writes article 1993apr15 mksol dseg ti com , pyron skndiv dseg ti com \( dillon pyron \) writes actually two us henry , fred , tommy mary oh yeah , n't real name , i'm bald headed space baby damn ! drinking beer robert parking lot k mart ! software engineering \? 's like military intelligence , n't \? sysmgr cadlab eng umd edu tore kmart near house \( putting new \) heard beer drinking ghost still place ! 8 \) tom liked one read ago data sheet 3000 nuclear event detector ned senses gamma radiation pulse nuclear weapon would n't notice
ajjb bnsc rl ac uk \( andrew broderick \) subject solar sail data keywords solar sail organization rutherford appleton lab , uk lines 79 article 1993apr15 29848 news duc auburn edu snydefj eng auburn edu writes looking information concerning projects involving solar sails interesting seminar work \( uk 's r l space science dept \) subject , specifically small scale solar sail proposed student space project guy giving talk keen generate interest project 'll handout gave meeting goes solar sail 1 introduction solar sail well established concept pressure sunlight , spacecraft would unlimited range principle , vehicle could explore whole solar system zero fuel consumption however difficult design practical solar sail people realize pressure sunlight one kilogram per square kilometer controlling large area fabric would necessary transport type spacecraft task , despite potential hte idea , craft actually launched date 2 design recent advances microelectronics make possible different concept tiny sail diameter could controlled purely electronics , mechanical parts several attitude control methods feasible example pressure sunlight panel solar cells varies according whether power drawn key components craft minute ccd camera developed edinburgh university act attitude sensor data gathering device solar cells providing 1 watt power control communication directional radio antenna onto surface sail launched piggyback payload , total cost mission limited tens thousands dollars 3 missions craft would capable ambitious missions example \) could rendezvous nearby asteroid apollo groups closeup pictures could transmitted back earth low bit rate b \) could lunar polar orbit previously areas around lunar poles could viewed angling sail reflect sunlight downwards , polar craters whose bases never receive sunlight could bright reflections would confirm water ice become trapped locations immensely valuable information setting manned lunar base , btw c \) could sent rendezvous small asteroid comet nucleus impacting low speed , thin wire probe attached craft causes rebound capturing tiny sample sharp edged tube , like performing biopsy returning earth , sail acts ideal entry parachute load per unit area 20 gm m2 ensures heat sail temperature cannot exceed 300 deg c material sample recovered , enclosed small container contact colin jack tel oxford mathematical designs , 131 high street , oxford ox1 , england guy would love hear anyone interested project seeking details anything , would happy send information andy andy jonathan j broderick , come might rutherford lab , uk life , full mail ajjb bnsc rl ac uk jesus christ
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject give 1 billion first year long moon residents \? organization u toronto zoology lines 15 article 1993apr20 iti org aws iti org \( allen w sherzer \) writes prize n't big enough warrent developing ssto , enough vehicle exists actually , people tell would enough ssto development , done privately cut rate operation course , may optimistic also assume working ssto would applications would help pay development costs 'd inclined make prize somewhat larger , 1g might enough work one man 's work henry spencer u toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
munizb rwtms2 decnet rockwell com \( rwtms2 munizb \) subject space activities tucson , az \? x added forwarded space digest organization via international space university original sender isu vacation venari cs cmu edu distribution sci lines 7 would like find space engineering employment educational opportunities tucson , arizona area e mail responses appreciated mail feed intermittent , please try one addresses ben w \( 818 \) 586 munizb rwtms2 decnet beach rockwell com ab com munizb rwtms2 decnet rockwell com
gary ke4zv uucp \( gary coffman \) subject ussr reached moon first \? reply gary ke4zv uucp \( gary coffman \) organization destructive testing systems lines 63 article 93110 qucdn queensu ca graydon saundrsg qucdn queensu ca writes article 1993apr18 091051 14496 ke4zv uucp , gary ke4zv uucp \( gary coffman \) says 's conceivable luna military purpose , 's possible luna commercial purpose , 's likely luna scientific purpose next several hundred years least therefore , lunar bases predicated funding levels little different found antarctic bases put 200 person base moon 30 million year \? even use grad students \? might able run one put , hardly think least couple centuries significant commerical activity moon \? wishful thinking mostly 's likely moon never site major commercial activity far know materials ca n't get cheaper right earth asteroids comets , aside semi mythic might useful low grade fusion reactors exploring would satisfy curiosity itch , 's position gravity well earth coupled 's heat sink capacity could offer military utility high ground military weapons systems , holds minute commercial value space travel becomes cheap enough , might become tourist attraction mt everest antarctic become , 's minor activity global scope things luna gravity field 's likely low prevent calcium loss , muscle atrophy , long term genetic drift yet 's high micro g manufacturing space based colonies factories spun value g look much better luna modest vacuum raw solar exposure two weeks month , orbital sites better continous solar exposure luna offers source light element rocks serve raw materials , heatsink , shielding asteroids comets offer sources light heavy elements , volatile compounds , many less steep gravity wells less delta v required reach n't use 2 earth , , virtually ignore , whole continent 's n't deal conditions order make buck luna much expensive place visit , live work think 'll use easier places first pushes lunar development back least centuries , much longer luna 's main short term value would place farside radio astronomy observatory , shielded noisy earth site laser , particle beam , linear accelerator weapons system defending earth , bombarding case may first unlikely high cost basic science instrument second unlikely conventional nukes good enough , military would really rather see earth safe conventional warfare 's little glory watching bunker machines fight continental ranges little ultimate profit either gary gary coffman ke4zv make , gatech ! wa4mei ! ke4zv ! gary destructive testing systems break uunet ! rsiatl ! ke4zv ! gary 534 shannon way guaranteed ! emory ! kd4nc ! ke4zv ! gary lawrenceville , ga 30244
gary ke4zv uucp \( gary coffman \) subject ussr reached moon first \? reply gary ke4zv uucp \( gary coffman \) organization destructive testing systems lines 38 article 1 cs cmu edu nickh cs cmu edu \( nick haines \) writes article 1993apr18 091051 14496 ke4zv uucp gary ke4zv uucp \( gary coffman \) writes read right , 're saying essence , larger economy , nations discretionary funds waste lunar facility certainly partially case apollo , real lunar colonies probably require continuing military , scientific , commercial reason rather money , \? approach ah , whole point money spent lunar base wasted moon 's like 'd using 1000 \( \? \) bills fuel moon money fund lunar base would spent country base belonged 's way funding high tech research , like darpa good excuse fund various fields research , pretense crucial defense country , like esprit good excuse ec fund research , pretense 's good pan european cooperation maybe think government funded research waste money \( fact , i'm pretty sure \) , count investment spending , boost economy \( look size multiplier \) actually favor government funded research pump prime lot basic technologies also understand short term value high tech welfare programs ca n't substitute long range wealth generation via commercial enterprise 's 's needed maintain healthy economy anywhere , earth luna n't see long term potential luna due bunch factors outline another post gary gary coffman ke4zv make , gatech ! wa4mei ! ke4zv ! gary destructive testing systems break uunet ! rsiatl ! ke4zv ! gary 534 shannon way guaranteed ! emory ! kd4nc ! ke4zv ! gary lawrenceville , ga 30244
flb flb optiplan fi \( f baube tm \) subject first spacewalk x added forwarded space digest organization via international space university original sender isu vacation venari cs cmu edu distribution sci lines 13 one time speculation first spacewalk \( alexei \? \) staged fake evidence support contradict claim emerged \? claim perhaps another cold war hallucination \? fred baube \( tm \) times intellectual ferment , baube optiplan fi advantage intellect include disclaimer h fermented ! frank zappa \? may '68 , paris 's retrospective time ! !
18084tm msu edu \( tom \) subject moonbase race x added forwarded space digest organization via international space university original sender isu vacation venari cs cmu edu distribution sci lines 26 gene wright gene theporch raider net continuin talk end space age complaints government large cost , try something read might work announce reward 1 billion would go first corporation successfully keeps least 1 person alive moon year 'd see inexpensive popular technologies begin developed 'd different kind space race ! 'll say ! imagine couple groups , maybe landing weeks apart year mark starts coming first group n't billion pretty good incentive take shot potential winner \? yeah , 's shame team 's life support gave close deadline thanks billion hand , apollo cost , days weeks space , 1970 dollars , wo n't reward lot 1 billion get takers \? tommy mac tom mcwilliams 517 355 2178 wk radius vision increases , 18084tm ibm cl msu edu 336 9591 hm circumference mystery grows
18084tm msu edu \( tom \) subject level 5 \? x added forwarded space digest organization via international space university original sender isu vacation venari cs cmu edu distribution sci lines 13 nick haines sez \( given 've heard shuttle software rated level 5 maturity , strongly doubt lots bugs case \) level 5 \? many \? different levels \? 've never heard rating system anyone care clue \? tommy mac tom mcwilliams 517 355 2178 wk radius vision increases , 18084tm ibm cl msu edu 336 9591 hm circumference mystery grows
willner head cfa harvard edu \( steve willner \) subject orion drive vacuum \? organization smithsonian astrophysical observatory , cambridge , , usa lines 19 article zoo toronto edu , henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) writes national air space museum prototype film however , quite possibly 's longer display nasm , like museums , much stuff display , rotate displays occasionally nasm photo archives open public \( almost \) still pictures collection available viewing , n't know films least might worth try i'm sure appointments necessary , think good luck , let us know find steve willner phone 617 495 bitnet willner cfa cambridge , 02138 usa internet willner cfa harvard edu member , league programming freedom contact lpf uunet uu net
djf cck coventry ac uk \( marvin batty \) subject moon colony prize race ! 6 billion total \? nntp posting host cc sysk organization starfleet , coventry , uk lines 49 article 1993apr20 1 aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes think prize classes following large corp small corp company \( based reported earnings \? \) large government \( gnp \) small \( political clout gnp \? \) large organization \( planetary society \? \? \) small organization \( alot small orgs \) , schools , universities , rich individuals \( around 250 people uk 10 million dollars \) mail people claimed might get person space 500 per pound send skinny person space split rest money among ground crew ! organization things would probably non profit liek \? \? course means prize might go larger get \? \? basically make prize \( total purse \) 6 billion , divided class winners fair \? would seperate organization set monitor events , umpire watch safety violations \( maybe , want risk thier lives let \? \) agreed volunteer uk attempts one clause launch methods clearly dangerous environment \( someone else 's \) usage materials areas planetary importance ideas \? \? yes rather talk lobby people ! major problem space talk paperwork action ! michael adams , nsmca acad3 alaska edu i'm high , jacked marvin batty djf uk ac cov cck shall find things , sort rafia like base , fathers put night 8 o'clock !
jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu \( josh hopkins \) subject conference manned lunar exploration may 7 crystal city distribution na organization university illinois urbana lines 33 higgins fnalf fnal gov \( bill higgins beam jockey \) writes \( josh hopkins \) writes remeber reading comment general dynamics tied , connection proposal early manned landing general chairman paul , official general dynamics emphasis seems scaled , fast plan put people moon impoverished spaceflight funding climate 'd think would golden opportunity lots work modest money using agressive series robot spacecraft , 's hint brochure may n't mention , actually n't thought got vague impression mission proposal n't taking whole thing seemed want land people moon end decade without explaining , would got application remember av week article placing telescope moon 's great , n't explain ca n't done hrumph n't send anything \( 're hanging right people , apparently i'm member besides bill , hang \) josh hopkins jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu find way make one attributed hannibal
jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu \( josh hopkins \) subject solar sail data keywords solar sail organization university illinois urbana lines 25 ajjb bnsc rl ac uk \( andrew broderick \) writes article 1993apr15 29848 news duc auburn edu snydefj eng auburn edu writes looking information concerning projects involving solar sails interesting seminar work \( uk 's r l space science dept \) subject , specifically small scale solar sail proposed student space project guy giving talk keen generate interest project 'll handout gave meeting goes stuff deleted however difficult design practical solar sail people realize pressure sunlight one kilogram per square kilometer i'm glad see someone working however , would nice got units right josh hopkins jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu find way make one attributed hannibal
higgins fnalf fnal gov \( bill higgins beam jockey \) subject solar sail data organization fermi national accelerator laboratory lines 56 nntp posting host fnalf fnal gov article 1993apr15 29848 news duc auburn edu , snydefj eng auburn edu \( frank j snyder \) writes looking information concerning projects involving solar sails groups currently involved project \? sure contact world space foundation 're listed sci space frequently asked questions file , 'll excerpt world space foundation designing building solar sail spacecraft longer similar group many jpl employees lend talents project also provides partial funding palomar sky survey , extremely successful search near earth asteroids publishes foundation news foundation astronautics notebook , quarterly 4 8 page newsletter contributing associate , minimum 15 year \( money always welcome support projects \) world space foundation post office box south pasadena , california put together little paperback anthology fiction solar sails project solar sail think robert , david , arthur clarke may listed editor also nontechnical book solar sailing louis friedman , technical one guy whose name escapes \( help , josh \) , would expect greg matloff eugene something say subject handbook , well quite references check following articles journal british interplanetary society p 201 209 \( 1983 \) p 483 489 \( 1983 \) p 135 141 \( 1984 \) p 491 494 \( 1984 \) p 113 119 \( 1984 \) p 133 136 \( 1984 \) \( guess matloff visited fermilab gave bunch reprints \? found file \) k eric 's paper high performance solar sails related reflecting devices , aiaa paper 79 , probably book called space manufacturing , maybe proceedings second \( \? \) conference space manufacturing 1979 one , rate submarines , flying boats , robots , talking bill higgins pictures , radio , television , bouncing radar fermilab vibrations moon , rocket ships , higgins fnal bitnet atom splitting time nobody higgins fnal fnal gov yet able figure music span 43011 higgins holder marching player meredith willson , 1948
jgreen trumpet calpoly edu \( james thomas green \) subject keeping spacecraft funding cuts organization california polytechnic state university , san luis obispo lines 51 spacecraft shut funding cuts example , could n't magellan told go safe mode stay bobbing venus low power use mode maybe years funding gets restored economy gets better \( hopefully \) , could turned matter , exactly apollo lunar experiments turned rather political \( e along could used , someone would keep bugging congress funds \) \? turning keeps scientists bureaucrat 's hair 've heard argument active uncontrolled spacecraft causes radio noise find hard believe could problem properly designed safe mode safe mode could program routine causes spacecraft go least fuel using orientation , \( week , month , year , whatever \) attempts signal lock earth time , funding restored , mission continue signal recieved , spacecraft goes back safe mode another time period would know spacecraft going try contact earth , could prepared necessary another spacecraft could attempted contact beam stored data towards earth someone receive , great , , 's lost big deal making time signal location generally known , perhaps someone world might able willing intercept data even 're willing contact spacecraft see particularly useful spacecraft could otherwise long life going places otherwise \( jupiter saturn orbit , exiting solar system , etc \) perhaps designing future spacecraft \( cassini , pluto flyby , etc \) consider designing pause mode case spacecraft gets ax sometime future completion primary mission perhaps mars observer could kind routine written post mission drift phase holes \? \( james green \) \( jgreen oboe calpoly edu \) believe nation commit achieving goal , decade , landing man moon returning safely earth john f kennedy may 25 , 1961
dietz cs rochester edu \( paul dietz \) subject commercial mining activities moon organization university rochester lines 38 article 1993apr20 ke4zv uucp gary ke4zv uucp \( gary coffman \) writes site major commercial activity far know materials ca n't get cheaper right earth asteroids comets , aside semi mythic might useful low grade fusion reactors n't know low grade fusion reactor , major problem \( aside difficulty making fusion reactor work \) concentration lunar small order 5 ppb , average \( fractions , still small \) massive amounts would processed thread reminds wingo 's claims time ago moon source titanium use earth recall , wingo n't content assured titanium \( 5 earth 's crust , average \) would run , touted lunar mines , even though market price concentrate days around 06 pound prompted look large potential terrestrial sources moon , titanium occurs basalts high ti basalts \( apollo 11 17 \) 8 14 titanium dioxide \( weight \) nice , terrestrial continental flood basalts also typically enriched titanium often 3 tio2 , frequently 4 , sometimes even 5 tio2 \( , weight \) flood basalts enormous millions cubic kilometers , scattered world \( siberia , brazil , nw united states , ethiopia , etc \) even 1 basalts 5 tio2 , tons tio2 concentrations factor 2 3 less lunar high ti basalts difficult see disadvantages moon could overcome small increase concentration ore \( never mind richer , less common , terrestrial today \) paul f dietz dietz cs rochester edu
baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov \( ron baalke \) subject keeping spacecraft funding cuts organization jet propulsion laboratory lines 15 distribution world nntp posting host kelvin jpl nasa gov news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article 1993apr20 zeus calpoly edu , jgreen trumpet calpoly edu \( james thomas green \) writes spacecraft shut funding cuts example , could n't magellan told go safe mode stay bobbing venus low power use mode maybe years funding gets restored economy gets better \( hopefully \) , could turned , problem political one , technical one ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab \) 525 3684 telos aweto new zealand pasadena , ca 91109 part caterpillar part vegetable
palm lle rochester edu \( andres c \) subject orion drive vacuum \? reply palm lle rochester edu \( andres c \) organization laboratory laser lines 17 nntp posting host palm lle rochester edu article 1993apr20 head cfa harvard edu , willner head cfa harvard edu \( steve willner \) writes nasm photo archives open public \( almost \) still pictures collection available viewing , n't know films least might worth try i'm sure appointments necessary , think posible make copies photographs \( aerospace photographs nasm \) pay copyright fee \? andres c living example application newton 's junior laser law lle rochester edu body rest wants remain
subject comet temporary orbit around jupiter \? robert coe bob 1776 com distribution world organization 1776 enterprises , sudbury lines 23 jgarland kean ucs mun ca writes also , gehrels3 april 1973 83 jupiter radii august 1970 3 jupiter radii 1 jupiter radius 71 , 000 km 44 , 000 mi 0 0005 au 1970 figure seems unlikely actually anything case 1973 figure well \? sorry , perijoves i'm used talking language hmmmm prefix peri greek , latin , 's usually used greek form name body orbited \( 's 's perihelion rather , rather , rather \) jupiter 'd expect something like \) \) bob \) \) \( \) \( \) \( \) \( \( \) \( bob 1776 com robert k coe 14 churchill st , sudbury , massachusetts 508 443
jgreen trumpet calpoly edu \( james thomas green \) subject proton centaur \? organization california polytechnic state university , san luis obispo lines 9 anyone looked possiblity proton centaur combo \? would benefits problems combo \( obvious instability \) \? \( james green \) \( jgreen oboe calpoly edu \) know believe understand think said sure realize said meant
steinly topaz ucsc edu \( steinn sigurdsson \) subject commercial mining activities moon 1993apr20 ke4zv uucp 1993apr20 cs rochester edu organization lick observatory uco lines 53 nntp posting host topaz ucsc edu reply dietz cs rochester edu 's message 20 apr 93 20 48 38 gmt article 1993apr20 cs rochester edu dietz cs rochester edu \( paul dietz \) writes article 1993apr20 ke4zv uucp gary ke4zv uucp \( gary coffman \) writes site major commercial activity far know materials ca n't get cheaper right earth asteroids comets , aside semi mythic might useful low grade fusion reactors problem \( aside difficulty making fusion reactor work \) concentration lunar small order 5 ppb , average \( thread reminds wingo 's claims time ago moon source titanium use earth recall , wingo n't even 1 basalts 5 tio2 , tons tio2 concentrations factor 2 3 less lunar high ti basalts difficult see disadvantages moon could overcome small increase concentration ore \( never mind richer , less common , terrestrial today \) paul , 's obvious chlorine chemistry banned earth , advocated groups , ti prices sharply increase \( course allowed assume developments ti processing \) lunar ti eminently competitive trendy jewelry market certain applications national importance \) \) \) \( oops , sci space wrong rules debate \) seriously , 'd say flaw gary 's analysis assumes export oriented economy , maybe lunatics want native ti local use lunar natives cost effective , analysis shown critical providing sheltered manufacturing base , technological innovation , critical materials manpower war allies central powers two hundred years \) steinn sigurdsson saw two shooting stars last night lick observatory wished satellites steinly lick ucsc edu wrong wish space hardware \? standard disclaimer wish , wish , wish 'd care b b 1983
dietz cs rochester edu \( paul dietz \) subject commercial mining activities moon organization university rochester lines 31 article steinly topaz ucsc edu steinly topaz ucsc edu \( steinn sigurdsson \) writes paul , 's obvious chlorine chemistry banned earth , advocated groups , ti prices sharply increase \( course allowed assume developments ti processing \) lunar ti eminently competitive trendy jewelry market certain applications national importance \) \) \) well , already sulfate process tio2 purification chlorine process cleaner , however , reason achieving dominance marketplace ti used , btw \( oxide \) , replaced white lead decades ago little reduced metal seriously , 'd say flaw gary 's analysis assumes export oriented economy , maybe lunatics want native ti local use merely issue lunatics \( , children would want stay \) paul f dietz dietz cs rochester edu
uxa cso uiuc edu \( patrick w grady \) subject dc x gifs show \? organization university illinois urbana lines 30 iastate edu \( douglas r \) writes article news cerf net diaspar nic cerf net \( diaspar virtual reality network \) writes rollout great got lots great shots attended press briefing got shots dc model , 3d david h mitchell david , still scanning posting somewhere \? hope hope hope could would great thanks report rollout well take care doug rollout already \? \? ! \? going pay attention news gifs headed wuarchive \? \? patrick patrick grady manage , humans beginning uxa cso uiuc edu time , yet always ending sumter cso uiuc edu blood hands \? bugger , card 's
steinly topaz ucsc edu \( steinn sigurdsson \) subject commercial mining activities moon organization lick observatory uco lines 42 steinly topaz ucsc edu 1993apr20 cs rochester edu nntp posting host topaz ucsc edu reply dietz cs rochester edu 's message 20 apr 93 22 38 07 gmt article 1993apr20 cs rochester edu dietz cs rochester edu \( paul dietz \) writes article steinly topaz ucsc edu steinly topaz ucsc edu \( steinn sigurdsson \) writes paul , 's obvious chlorine chemistry banned earth , advocated groups , ti prices \) \) \) well , already sulfate process tio2 purification chlorine process cleaner , however , reason achieving dominance marketplace darn , caught white hot heat technological progress ti used , btw \( oxide \) , replaced white lead decades ago little reduced metal hence need increasing fashion emphasis ti jewelry seriously , 'd say flaw gary 's analysis assumes export oriented economy , maybe lunatics want native ti local use merely issue lunatics \( , children would want stay \) evade issue clearly stated would diabolical foresight establishing sheltered industrial base upcoming great war \) cost effective use right accounting method \) steinn sigurdsson lick observatory steinly lick ucsc edu standard disclaimer , oh , love strange learn take smooth , suppose b b 1983
dong oakhill sps mot com \( gibson \) subject give 1 billion first year lo nntp posting host lexus reply dong oakhill sps mot com organization motorola semiconductor products sector lines 21 article f23 zoo toronto edu , henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) writes article 1993apr20 iti org aws iti org \( allen w sherzer \) writes prize n't big enough warrent developing ssto , enough vehicle exists actually , people tell would enough ssto development , done privately cut rate operation course , may optimistic also assume working ssto would applications would help pay development costs 'd inclined make prize somewhat larger , 1g might enough sounds like indecent proposal movie would n't lot people would try little hope working get dough \? 1 100 chance costs , might pay grand lucky hero send dozen 1 bound survive enough make rich dong
enzo research canon oz au \( enzo liguori \) subject vandalizing sky organization canon information systems research australia lines 38 article 's new apr 16 93 sci physics research what's new \( opinion \) , friday , 16 april 1993 washington , dc 1 space billboards ! one spinoffs promised \? 1950 , science fiction writer robert heinlein published man sold moon , involved dispute sale rights moon use billboard nasa taken toward hideous vision future observers startled spring nasa launch vehicle arrived pad schwarzenegger painted huge block letters side booster rockets space marketing inc arranged ad promote arnold 's latest movie , space marketing working university colorado livermore engineers plan place mile long inflatable billboard low earth orbit nasa would provide contractual launch services however , since nasa bases charge seriously flawed cost estimates \( wn 26 mar 93 \) taxpayers would bear expense may look like environmental vandalism , mike lawson , ceo space marketing , told us yesterday real purpose project help environment ! platform carry ozone monitors explained advertising help defray costs think revolting hideous attempt vandalize night sky \? even april 1 anymore light pollution observations \? \( read somewhere else might even visible day , leave alone night \) nasa really supporting junk \? protesting groups organized states \? really , really depressed enzo liguori enzo research canon oz au canon information systems research australia phone 61 2 805 po box 313 north ryde nsw 2113 fax 61 2 805
sheaffer netcom com \( robert sheaffer \) subject astronomy program organization netcom online communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 23 article galaxy ucr edu ucrengr ucr edu \( kevin marcus \) writes public domain shareware astronomy programs map sky given time , allow locate planets , , forth \? , ftp site get one \? posted public domain msdos program sunlight zip sci astro yesterday easily sun , moon , planets , also used locate objects input right use uudecode extract robert sheaffer maximus sheaffer netcom com past chairman , bay area skeptics speak authorized ! marxism feminism one one marxism hartmann amy bridges , quoted first chapter toward feminist theory state
jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu \( josh hopkins \) subject solar sail data organization university illinois urbana lines 24 higgins fnalf fnal gov \( bill higgins beam jockey \) writes snydefj eng auburn edu \( frank j snyder \) writes looking information concerning projects involving solar sails groups currently involved project \? bill says also nontechnical book solar sailing louis friedman , technical one guy whose name escapes \( help , josh \) , presume one refer space sailing jerome l wright worked solar sails jpl ceo general astronautics 'll furnish ordering info upon request friedman book called solar sails interstellar travel available planetary society years ago , n't know still josh hopkins jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu find way make one attributed hannibal
prb access digex com \( pat \) subject proton centaur \? organization express access online communications usa lines 15 nntp posting host access digex net article 1993apr20 211638 168730 zeus calpoly edu jgreen trumpet calpoly edu \( james thomas green \) writes anyone looked possiblity proton centaur combo \? n't know whole lot proton , given multi stage rocket , 4 stages , may really need centaur , plus may end seriously beating said centaur also , centaur small , unless proton shroud may able get centaur dennis , know much \? pat
wdwells nyx cs du edu \( david fuzzy wells \) subject boom ! whoosh organization university denver , dept math comp sci lines 22 one profs chief engineer project \( dr ron humble , univ colorado colorado springs \) love idea inflatable 1 mile long sign really neat thing see explode bolt \( even better , westford needle ! \) comes crashing 10 clicks sec boom ! sputter , sputter okay , pretend would make sound ! hear insert favorite rumor supposedly coincide atlanta olympics fuzzy lt david fuzzy wells want peace earth , 'o o' hq cna goodwill toward men \( \) debris 're government n't u ack ! wdwells esprit uccs edu sort thing sneakers
nsmca aurora alaska edu subject give 1 billion first year long moon residents \? article aurora 1993apr20 1 organization university alaska fairbanks lines 33 nntp posting host acad3 alaska edu article 1993apr20 iti org , aws iti org \( allen w sherzer \) writes article sal sun121 usc edu schaefer sal sun121 usc edu \( peter schaefer \) writes announce reward 1 billion would go first corporation successfully keeps least 1 person alive moon year oh gee , billion dollars ! 'd enough cover cost feasability study ! happy , happy , joy ! joy ! depends assume existance working ssto like dc , billion would enough put quarter million pounds stuff moon mass went send equipment make lox transfer vehicle , could send lot either way , lot needed prize n't big enough warrent developing ssto , enough vehicle exists allen lady astor sir , husband would poison coffee ! w churchill madam , wife , would drink 57 days first flight dcx different classes made total purse \( depending many different classes , auto racing racing \) shall see things go michael adams , nsmca acad3 alaska edu i'm high , jacked
prb access digex com \( pat \) subject keeping spacecraft funding cuts organization express access online communications usa lines 11 distribution world nntp posting host access digex net birds require constant management survival pointing sensor sun , even powered , may burn pointing parabolic antenna sol , venus orbit may trash foci elements even let teh bird drift , may get hosed cosmic phenomena pat
nsmca aurora alaska edu subject jemison star trek article aurora 1993apr20 1 organization university alaska fairbanks lines 16 nntp posting host acad3 alaska edu article fs7 ece cmu edu , loss fs7 ece cmu edu \( doug loss \) writes saw newspaper last night dr mae jemison , first black woman space \( 's physician chemical engineer flew endeavour last year \) appear transporter operator star trek next generation episode week may 31 's hardly space science , know , 's interesting doug loss interesting rigth wonder make mention astronaut credits think might help people connect future space present give idea must go space michael adams , nsmca acad3 alaska edu i'm high , jacked
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject give 1 billion first year lo organization u toronto zoology lines 16 article oakhill sps mot com dong oakhill sps mot com writes 'd inclined make prize somewhat larger , 1g might enough sounds like indecent proposal movie would n't lot people would try little hope working get dough \? 1 100 chance costs , might pay grand lucky hero send dozen 1 bound survive enough make rich prize like going need worded carefully enough cannot get without demonstrating sustained reliable capability , rather lucky one shot done work one man 's work henry spencer u toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject moonbase race organization u toronto zoology lines 11 article 1 cs cmu edu 18084tm msu edu \( tom \) writes hand , apollo cost , days weeks space , 1970 dollars , wo n't reward lot 1 billion get takers \? apollo done hard way , big hurry , limited technology base government contracts privately , rather government project , cuts costs factor several work one man 's work henry spencer u toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
jpw cbis ece drexel edu \( joseph wetstein \) subject sunrise sunset times organization drexel university , college engineering , philadelphia , pa lines 8 hello looking program \( algorithm \) used compute sunrise sunset times would appreciate advice joe wetstein jpw coe drexel edu
todd la locus com \( todd johnson \) subject vandalizing sky organization locus computing corporation , los angeles , california lines 28 article c5t05k db6 research canon oz au enzo research canon oz au \( enzo liguori \) writes article 's new apr 16 93 sci physics research what's new \( opinion \) , friday , 16 april 1993 washington , dc 1 space billboards ! one spinoffs promised \? light pollution observations \? \( read somewhere else might even visible day , leave alone night \) nasa really supporting junk \? protesting groups organized states \? really , really depressed enzo would n't worry 's enough space debris mile long inflatable would probably deflate short period time \( less year \) cleaning leo somewhat sort giant fly paper orbit hmm , could actually useful advertising sure , \? nasa friend spent one drunken night figuring exactly much gold mylar 'd need put golden arches certain american fast food organization face moon fortunately , morning todd
nsmca aurora alaska edu subject lunar colony race ! 2005 2010 \? article aurora 1993apr20 1 organization university alaska fairbanks lines 27 nntp posting host acad3 alaska edu okay far group \( size , small , \? \) send human moon , set human \( \) spend one earth year moon mean resupply \? \? need find atleast 1billion prize money contest open different classes participants new mexico state semi challenged university alaska \( branch \) put team together university college institute higher learning wish make counter challenge challenge another school \? say like idea atleast russian team prefer using new technology , others old basic idea new moon race like solar car race australia atleast basic vein suggestions \? michael adams , nsmca acad3 alaska edu i'm high , jacked
jennise opus dgi com \( goddess peripherals \) subject looking little research help organization dynamic graphics inc lines 6 distribution usa nntp posting host opus dgi com found ! thanks got several offers help appreciate contacting people via e mail thanks jennise
nsmca aurora alaska edu subject old spacecraft navigation beacons ! article aurora 1993apr21 1 organization university alaska fairbanks lines 8 nntp posting host acad3 alaska edu idea old space crafts navigation beacons \? \? put safe pause mode activated signal space craft \( manned \? \) act beacon , take directional plot \? \? wierd \? michael adams , nsmca acad3 alaska edu i'm high , jacked
wats scicom alphacdc com \( bruce watson \) subject give 1 billion first year long moon residents \? organization alpha science computer network , denver , co lines 5 apollo program cost something like 25 billion time value dollar worth one would take offer bruce watson \( wats scicom alphacdc com \) bulletin 629 49 item 6700 extract 75 , 131
soda berkeley edu \( george william herbert \) subject moonbase race organization retro aerospace lines 14 nntp posting host soda berkeley edu summary hmm hmm 1 billion , lesse probably launch 100 tons leo 200 million , five years , gives 20 tons lunar surface one way say five tons return vehicle fuel , bigger mercury something \( might get low two tons \) , leaving fifteen tons one man habitat year 's supplies \? gee , sort mass margins build systems shelf another hundred million tops leaves 700 million profit like idea 8 \) let 's see guys push someone make happen 8 \) 8 \) slightly seriously george william herbert retro aerospace
hoover mathematik uni bielefeld de \( uwe \) subject vandalizing sky nntp posting host mathematik uni bielefeld de organization math bielefeld , germany lines 26 article c5t05k db6 research canon oz au enzo research canon oz au \( enzo liguori \) writes hideous vision future observers startled spring nasa launch vehicle arrived pad schwarzenegger painted huge block letters ok opinion long stuff returns earth think revolting hideous attempt vandalize night sky \? even april 1 anymore turns true , 's time get seriously active terrorism unbelievable ! people think , selling every bit promises make money \? guess really deserve wiped uv radiation , folks stupidity wins guess 's true , pure numbers another depressed planetary citizen , hoover uwe hoover hoover mathematik uni bielefeld de clear skies fight light pollution !
c23st kocrsv01 delcoelect com \( spiros triantafyllopoulos \) subject space station radio commercial organization delco electronics corp lines 25 article 793 skates gsfc nasa gov xrcjd resolve gsfc nasa gov \( charles j divine \) writes brief political cultural item radio station washington classical music station large audience among high officials \( elected otherwise \) imagine radio station advertises mercedes , diamond jewelry , expensive resorts \( truthfully \) trident submarines morning heard commercial space station project n't catch advertiser guess 're pulling stops air force world least , crisis scale models plane question \( e sacrificed \) begin arrive key senators offices course assumed coffee mugs junk tried earlier spiros spiros triantafyllopoulos c23st kocrsv01 delcoelect com software technology , delco electronics \( 317 \) 451 0815 gm hughes electronics , kokomo , 46904 post , therefore armm
dante shakala com \( charlie prael \) subject commercial mining activities moon organization shakala bbs \( clanzen radio network \) sunnyvale , ca 1 408 734 2289 lines 10 dietz cs rochester edu \( paul dietz \) writes merely issue lunatics \( , children would want stay \) paul reason many colonies founded \? charlie prael dante shakala com shakala bbs \( clanzen radio network \) sunnyvale , ca 1 408 734 2289
palmer cco caltech edu \( david palmer \) subject boom ! whoosh organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 39 nntp posting host alumni caltech edu matthew phantom gatech edu \( matthew deluca \) writes article 1993apr21 mnemosyne cs du edu wdwells nyx cs du edu \( david fuzzy wells \) writes hear insert favorite rumor supposedly coincide atlanta olympics even worse , city atlanta proposal rent space orbiting billboard considering caliber people running city , 's telling 're going us orbit would like point much easier place object orbital altitude place orbital velocity target 300 km surface earth , need delta v 2 5 km assuming rockets specific impulses 300 seconds easy produce , rocket dry weight 50 kg would require 65 kg fuel small dispersal charge embedded 20 kg sand \( depending nature structure \) would payload sure whole project well within capability amateur rocketry community sounds like good science fair project light pollution applied , could part challenge prize discussed 1 billion first person spend 1 year moon , 1 million first orbital ccd burner 1000 first person bring , sure least 999 astronomers , nature lovers , plain people good taste would likewise course , gerald bull solution might simpler \( either solution gerald bull would apply use large caliber gun solution applied gerald bull use small caliber gun \) david palmer palmer alumni caltech edu palmer tgrs gsfc nasa gov
higgins fnalf fnal gov \( bill higgins beam jockey \) subject gehrels \? \( comet temporary orbit around jupiter \? \) organization fermi national accelerator laboratory lines 30 nntp posting host fnalf fnal gov article 1993apr21 sq sq com , msb sq sq com \( mark brader \) writes also , peri jove gehrels3 thanks one final question name gehrels n't known thread came , may issue scientific american article inconstant cosmos , photo neil gehrels , project scientist nasa 's compton gamma ray observatory person \? would guess dr neil gehrels cgro son dr tom gehrels university arizona since 's long research interests asteroids solar system astronomy , tom one likely discovered comet \( thus name attached \) tom gehrels leader spacewatch project , recently increased mankind 's discovery rate near earth asteroids \( 're finding couple every month \) much interesting guy , read autobiography , sea know asteroids , mr kemp \? bill higgins hundreds thousands wandering around sun strange fermilab orbits never named , never orphans solar higgins fnal fnal gov system , mr kemp higgins fnal bitnet want become father moon zero two span hepnet 43011 higgins
stephens geod emr ca \( dave stephenson \) subject old spacecraft navigation beacons ! nntp posting host ngis geod emr ca organization dept energy , mines , resources , ottawa lines 21 nsmca aurora alaska edu writes idea old space crafts navigation beacons \? \? put safe pause mode activated signal space craft \( manned \? \) act beacon , take directional plot \? \? wierd \? michael adams , nsmca acad3 alaska edu i'm high , jacked whole constellation custom built navigation beacon satellites process phased right transit oscar satellites replaced gps thinking deep space navigation , best done doppler vlbi stellar measurements think additional radio beacons would help much dave stephenson geological survey canada ottawa , ontario , canada internet stephens geod emr ca
sysmgr king eng umd edu \( doug mohney \) subject commercial mining activities moon organization computer aided design lab , u maryland college park lines 10 reply sysmgr king eng umd edu nntp posting host queen eng umd edu article steinly topaz ucsc edu , steinly topaz ucsc edu \( steinn sigurdsson \) writes cost effective use right accounting method \) sherzer methodology ! ! ! ! ! ! software engineering \? 's like military intelligence , n't \? sysmgr cadlab eng umd edu
sysmgr king eng umd edu \( doug mohney \) subject moonbase race organization computer aided design lab , u maryland college park lines 13 reply sysmgr king eng umd edu nntp posting host queen eng umd edu article zoo toronto edu , henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) writes apollo done hard way , big hurry , limited technology base government contracts privately , rather government project , cuts costs factor several much would cost private venture , assuming could talk u government leasing couple pads florida \? software engineering \? 's like military intelligence , n't \? sysmgr cadlab eng umd edu
subject life mars \? \? \? schiewer pa881a inland com \( schiewer \) organization inland steel company , east chicago , nntp posting host pa881a nntp posting user schiewer lines 9 deal life mars \? save face heard associated theories \( sound thin \) going back mars look face agian \? anyone buy life theories \? schiewer internet schiewer pa881a inland com onward great inland steel uucp ! uucp ! pa881a inland ! schiewer stream
aws iti org \( allen w sherzer \) subject moonbase race organization evil geniuses better tomorrow lines 16 article mojo eng umd edu sysmgr king eng umd edu writes much would cost private venture , assuming could talk u government leasing couple pads florida \? would want \? goal cheaper \( remember , n't government \) instead leasing expensive launch pad , use ssto launch much cheaper facility allen lady astor sir , husband would poison coffee ! w churchill madam , wife , would drink 56 days first flight dcx
nickh cs cmu edu \( nick haines \) subject level 5 \? reply 18084tm msu edu 's message tue , 20 apr 1993 21 37 55 gmt originator nickh snow fox cs cmu edu nntp posting host snow fox cs cmu edu organization school computer science , carnegie mellon university distribution sci lines 50 article 1 cs cmu edu 18084tm msu edu \( tom \) writes nick haines sez \( given 've heard shuttle software rated level 5 maturity , strongly doubt lots bugs case \) level 5 \? many \? different levels \? 've never heard rating system anyone care clue \? rating system used arpa organisations measure maturity e entire process software gets designed , written , tested , delivered , supported etc see software , watts humphrey , addison wesley 1989 excellent software engineering text 5 levels software process maturity 1 initial 2 repeatable 3 defined 4 managed 5 optimizing levels approximately characterized follows 1 statistically software process control statistical basis estimating large software , long take produce , expensive , reliable software production level 2 stable process statistical controls , rigorous project management done something , projects planned detail , software configuration management quality assurance 3 process defined understood , implementation consistent includes things like software inspection , rigorous software testing framework , configuration management , typically engineering process within project 4 statistical information software systematically gathered analysed , process controlled basis information software quality measured goals 5 defects prevented , process automated , software contracts effective certified nick haines nickh cmu edu
nosubdomain nodomain \( matthew r \) subject lunar colony race ! 2005 2010 \? nntp posting host draper com organization draper laboratory lines 18 article 1993apr20 1 aurora alaska edu , nsmca aurora alaska edu writes okay far group \( size , small , \? \) send human moon , set human \( \) spend one earth year moon mean resupply \? \? need find atleast 1billion prize money first thought ross perot consideration , think 'd likely try win come disappointing third try bill gates try sam walton 's kids matt matthew draper com
mccall mksol dseg ti com \( fred j mccall 575 3539 \) subject level 5 \? organization texas instruments inc distribution sci lines 33 1 cs cmu edu 18084tm msu edu \( tom \) writes nick haines sez \( given 've heard shuttle software rated level 5 maturity , strongly doubt lots bugs case \) level 5 \? many \? different levels \? 've never heard rating system anyone care clue \? sei level 5 \( highest level sei stands software engineering institute \) i'm sure , believe rating applies flight software also keep mind achieved use sophisticated tools , rather force attack problem challenger standdown simply threw hundreds people whole process hand would consider receiving status systems yet use would much \( anything \) rating 'll get latest copy guidelines make sure \( issued new ones , think \) also keep mind sei levels concerned primarily control software process assumption well controlled process produce good software also keep mind sei level 5 damned hard software country produced rate sei level 1 \( \) insisting perfect safety people n't balls live real world mary shafer , nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com n't speak others n't speak
aws iti org \( allen w sherzer \) subject conference manned lunar exploration may 7 crystal city organization evil geniuses better tomorrow distribution na lines 19 article news cso uiuc edu jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu \( josh hopkins \) writes remeber reading comment general dynamics tied , connection proposal early manned landing sorry n't rember heard , i'm fairly sure somewhere reputable anyone else know anything angle \? mean anything gd approach , article recent week n't remember exact date recent allen lady astor sir , husband would poison coffee ! w churchill madam , wife , would drink 56 days first flight dcx
aws iti org \( allen w sherzer \) subject give 1 billion first year long moon residents \? organization evil geniuses better tomorrow lines 34 article f23 zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) writes prize n't big enough warrent developing ssto , enough vehicle exists actually , people tell would enough ssto development , done privately cut rate operation course , may optimistic spite great respect people speak , think cost estimates bit optimistic nothing else , working ssto least complex large airliner smaller experience base therefore seems ssto development cost least much typical airliner development puts 3g 5g range also assume working ssto would applications would help pay development costs true contest would result much larger market n't think would enough attract investors given risks involved could gurantee ssto costs gurantee captures 100 available launch market , think could allen lady astor sir , husband would poison coffee ! w churchill madam , wife , would drink 56 days first flight dcx
cook varmit mdc com \( layne cook \) subject lindbergh moon \( give 1g \) organization university new mexico , albuquerque , nm lines 19 distribution world reply cook varmit mdc com \( layne cook \) nntp posting host cook mdc com talk commercial space race \( e 1g first 1 year moon base \) intriguing similar prizes influenced aerospace development 25k orteig prize helped lindbergh sell spirit saint louis venture financial backers memory serves , 25k prize would enough totally reimburse expensive projects \( 's , multi engine projects \) however lindbergh ultimately kept total costs amount strongly suspect saint louis backers foresight realize much stake 25 , 000 could work moon \? far sighted financial backers today \? layne cook cook apt mdc com mcdonnell douglas space systems co
andrew rogers rogers jsc nasa gov subject life mars \? \? \? x xxdate wed , 21 apr 93 16 03 51 gmt organization lockheed engineering sciences company x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d17 lines 9 article 1993apr20 1 pa881a inland com schiewer , schiewer pa881a inland com writes deal life mars \? save face heard associated theories \( sound thin \) going back mars look face agian \? anyone buy life theories \? try alt alien visitors
matthew phantom gatech edu \( matthew deluca \) subject boom ! whoosh organization dorsai grey captains lines 13 nntp posting host oit gatech edu article 1993apr21 mnemosyne cs du edu wdwells nyx cs du edu \( david fuzzy wells \) writes hear insert favorite rumor supposedly coincide atlanta olympics even worse , city atlanta proposal rent space orbiting billboard considering caliber people running city , 's telling 're going us orbit matthew deluca georgia institute technology , atlanta georgia , 30332 uucp ! decvax , hplabs , ncar , purdue , rutgers ! gatech ! prism ! matthew internet matthew phantom gatech edu
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject lunar colony race ! 2005 2010 \? organization u toronto zoology lines 18 article 1993apr21 draper com nosubdomain nodomain \( matthew r \) writes need find atleast 1billion prize money first thought ross perot consideration , think 'd likely try win come disappointing third try bill gates try sam walton 's kids lunar society 's estimate cost lunar colony mentioned making orbit , somebody asked jerry talked bill gates \? answer yes says going sink much money , 'd want run n't time \( somebody asked perot answer ross perot board may bigger problem money \) work one man 's work henry spencer u toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject life mars \? \? \? organization u toronto zoology lines 24 article 1993apr20 1 pa881a inland com schiewer pa881a inland com \( schiewer \) writes deal life mars \? save face heard associated theories \( sound thin \) face accident light shadow many faces earth none artificial \( well , excluding mount like \) also smiley face mars , kermit frog question life mundane sense bacteria like quite closed , although odds , orthodox hoping fossils currently particular plans searches life going back mars look face agian \? mars observer , currently approaching mars , probably try get better image two face point 's high priority nobody takes seriously shadowed half face look face like , take one shot different sun angle ruin illusion work one man 's work henry spencer u toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
steinly topaz ucsc edu \( steinn sigurdsson \) subject commercial mining activities moon organization lick observatory uco lines 26 1993apr20 cs rochester edu steinly topaz ucsc edu 1993apr20 cs rochester edu , steinly topaz ucsc edu mojo eng umd edu nntp posting host topaz ucsc edu reply sysmgr king eng umd edu 's message 21 apr 1993 19 16 51 gmt article mojo eng umd edu sysmgr king eng umd edu \( doug mohney \) writes article steinly topaz ucsc edu , steinly topaz ucsc edu \( steinn sigurdsson \) writes cost effective use right accounting method \) sherzer methodology ! ! ! ! ! ! hell , yes i'm going let bunch seven suits tell right way estimate cost effectiveness , least make mind long enough leave scheme stable fiscal year two seriously though ask british government whether efforts americas cost effective , answer think 'd get \? asked , 1815 , , 1915 1945 respectively \? \) steinn sigurdsson lick observatory steinly lick ucsc edu standard disclaimer ever go take road , ok road , 's best ! go ! bb 1983
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject level 5 \? organization u toronto zoology lines 31 article 1993apr21 mksol dseg ti com mccall mksol dseg ti com \( fred j mccall 575 3539 \) writes \( given 've heard shuttle software rated level 5 level 5 \? many \? also keep mind achieved use sophisticated tools , rather force attack problem challenger standdown simply threw hundreds people whole process hand think little inaccurate , based feynman 's account software development process standdown fred basically correct sophisticated tools , lot effort care got one right challenger feynman cited software people exemplary compared engine people \( also noted software people starting feel management pressure cut corners , n't give much yet \) among things , software people worked hard get things right major pre flight simulations , considered failure simulations nearly bad flight failure result , number major simulation failures could counted one hand , number flight failures zero fred mentioned elsewhere , applies flight software software runs experiments typically mostly put together experimenters , gets nowhere near level tender loving care \( none experimenters could afford \) work one man 's work henry spencer u toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
prb access digex com \( pat \) subject navstar positions organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 7 nntp posting host access digex net c 3 's bird may expecting die soon c 3 may orbit major users areas , may needed provide redundancy plane b 4 may orbit , user community pat
mancus sweetpea jsc nasa gov \( keith mancus \) subject lindbergh moon \( give 1g \) organization mdssc lines 32 article lynx unm edu , cook varmit mdc com \( layne cook \) writes talk commercial space race \( e 1g first 1 year moon base \) intriguing similar prizes influenced aerospace development 25k orteig prize helped lindbergh sell spirit saint louis venture financial backers strongly suspect saint louis backers foresight realize much stake 25 , 000 could work moon \? far sighted financial backers today \? commercial uses transportation system already settled civilized areas obvious spaceflight position correct analogy aviation '30 's , long voyages age discovery n't require gov't fund long something known potential profit destination practice , gov't funded , private way wise investor would spend large amount money risky investment idea possible payoff sure thriving spaceflight industry eventually develop , large numbers people live work earth ask specific justifications increased resource base , ca n't give n't know enough launch rate demanded existing space industries low bring costs much , much dark revolutionary new space industries , practical , much invested start , etc keith mancus mancus butch jsc nasa gov n5wvr mancus sweetpea jsc nasa gov black powder alcohol , states cities fall , back 's wall leslie fish
baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov \( ron baalke \) subject life mars \? \? \? organization jet propulsion laboratory lines 24 distribution world nntp posting host kelvin jpl nasa gov news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article fd zoo toronto edu , henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) writes article 1993apr20 1 pa881a inland com schiewer pa881a inland com \( schiewer \) writes currently particular plans searches life quite true one instruments mars observer searching potential fossil sites going back mars look face agian \? mars observer , currently approaching mars , probably try get better image two face point 's high priority nobody takes seriously shadowed half face look face like , take one shot different sun angle ruin illusion face viking landing sites targeted high resolution camera mars observer ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab \) 525 3684 telos aweto new zealand pasadena , ca 91109 part caterpillar part vegetable
dennisn ecs comm mot com \( dennis newkirk \) subject first spacewalk organization motorola distribution sci nntp posting host 145 1 146 43 lines 14 article 1 cs cmu edu flb flb optiplan fi \( f baube tm \) writes one time speculation first spacewalk \( alexei \? \) staged fake evidence support contradict claim emerged \? claim perhaps another cold war hallucination \? claim made someone spotted training film footage footage actual spacewalk dennis newkirk \( dennisn ecs comm mot com \) motorola , land mobile products sector schaumburg , il
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject keeping spacecraft funding cuts organization u toronto zoology lines 17 article 1993apr20 zeus calpoly edu jgreen trumpet calpoly edu \( james thomas green \) writes spacecraft shut funding cuts example , could n't magellan told go safe mode stay bobbing venus low power use mode maybe years funding gets restored economy gets better \( hopefully \) , could turned one consideration remember n't turn , may able later n't case reaching flipping switch much spacecraft working correctly execute turn command successfully spacecraft malfunction old age big concern radio clutter idle spacecraft , radio clutter spacecraft longer turned work one man 's work henry spencer u toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
clj ksr com \( chris jones \) subject proton centaur \? reply clj ksr com \( chris jones \) organization kendall square research corp lines 20 reply prb access digex com \( pat \) article ivs access digex net , prb access \( pat \) writes article 1993apr20 211638 168730 zeus calpoly edu jgreen trumpet calpoly edu \( james thomas green \) writes anyone looked possiblity proton centaur combo \? n't know whole lot proton , given multi stage rocket , 4 stages , may really need centaur , plus may end seriously beating said centaur proton used 2 , 3 , 4 stage versions two stage version used first 3 launches , 3 4 stage versions used today four stage version used mostly escape \( geosynchronous \? \) orbits , 3 stage version used low earth orbits since version launched mir \( add modules mir \) , long centaur smaller mir \( believe \) , fit shroud vaguely recall russians developing lox upper stage proton chris jones clj ksr com
prb access digex com \( pat \) subject give 1 billion first year long moon residents \? organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 26 nntp posting host access digex net article 1993apr21 iti org aws iti org \( allen w sherzer \) writes article f23 zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) writes spite great respect people speak , think cost estimates bit optimistic nothing else , working ssto least complex large airliner smaller experience base therefore seems ssto development cost least much typical airliner development puts 3g 5g range alan , n't forget , huge cost airliner developement faa certification joke paperwork exceeds teh weight airplane , fly sr 71 , teh x 15 highly ambitious aero space projects done narrow engineering budgets partly n't spend much paper pushing company missouri trying get funding build light commercial low cost basis , mostly reducing faa certification costs pat
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject boom ! whoosh organization u toronto zoology lines 21 article gap caltech edu palmer cco caltech edu \( david palmer \) writes orbiting billboard would like point much easier place object orbital altitude place orbital velocity target 300 km surface earth , need delta v 2 5 km assuming rockets specific impulses 300 seconds easy produce , rocket dry weight 50 kg would require 65 kg fuel unfortunately , launch us \( us citizen \) , need launch permit office commercial space transportation , think may difficult get permit weapon \) threshold licensing kicks roughly \( rules actually phrased complex ways , result \) work one man 's work henry spencer u toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
yamauchi ces cwru edu \( brian yamauchi \) subject inflatable mile long space billboards \( vandalizing sky \) organization case western reserve university lines 70 distribution world nntp posting host ces cwru edu reply enzo research canon oz au 's message tue , 20 apr 1993 22 36 55 gmt article c5t05k db6 research canon oz au enzo research canon oz au \( enzo liguori \) writes what's new \( opinion \) , friday , 16 april 1993 washington , dc 1 space billboards ! one spinoffs promised \? 1950 , science fiction writer robert heinlein published man sold moon , involved dispute sale rights moon use billboard nasa taken toward hideous vision future observers startled spring nasa launch vehicle arrived pad schwarzenegger painted huge block letters side booster rockets space marketing inc arranged ad promote arnold 's latest movie well , 're going get upset , might well direct moral outrage towards well capitalist application booster long nasa \( sign times sony logo soyuz launcher \) , space marketing working university colorado livermore engineers plan place mile long inflatable billboard low earth orbit sounds like something lowell wood would think anyone know 's involved \? nasa would provide contractual launch services however , since nasa bases charge seriously flawed cost estimates \( wn 26 mar 93 \) taxpayers would bear expense may look like environmental vandalism , mike lawson , ceo space marketing , told us yesterday real purpose project help environment ! platform carry ozone monitors explained advertising help defray costs may purpose university colorado people guess purpose livermore people learn build large , inflatable space structures think revolting hideous attempt vandalize night sky \? even april 1 anymore true , think 's great idea learning build build structures space essential step towards space development , given freedom appears shrinking towards vanishing point , question whether nasa 's space station going provide much , , knowledge area \( especially design 's wingless orbiter chosen \) project also monitors ozone depletion demonstrates creative use \( partial \) private sector funding process much better nasa really supporting junk \? anyone details wn news blip \? serious project \? wild idea stage real funding \? protesting groups organized states \? yet though , project goes , suppose return jeremy inevitable brian yamauchi case western reserve university yamauchi alpha ces cwru edu department computer engineering science
keithley apple com \( craig keithley \) subject give 1 billion first year lo organization apple computer , inc lines 80 article 1993apr21 iti org , aws iti org \( allen w sherzer \) wrote article f23 zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) writes prize n't big enough warrent developing ssto , enough vehicle exists actually , people tell would enough ssto development , done privately cut rate operation course , may optimistic spite great respect people speak , think cost estimates bit optimistic nothing else , working ssto least complex large airliner smaller experience base therefore seems ssto development cost least much typical airliner development puts 3g 5g range purpose contest , 'd bet things could cut like fuel entry , kind heat shielding , etc , etc even still , contest participants fund dc 1 development , probably would n't worth develop dc 1 \( contest \) give cheapest lift man rated \( least 6 gs \) booster n't pay dc 1 development , great ! , 'll use back contest goals , recent article aw st low cost \( 's relative \) manned return moon general dynamics scheme involving titan iv shuttle lift centaur upper stage , lev , crew capsule mission consists delivering two unmanned payloads lunar surface , followed manned mission total cost us 10 13 billion joint esa \( \? \) nasa project 6 9 billion us share n't find mention long crew could stay , 'd bet around 30 days total payload delivered 30 metric tonnes ignore scientific payload , hitch ride crew habitation module \( return trip \) , toss tonnes additional consumables last another 11 months , might able get year visit 15 tonnes \( case obvious , 's wild ass guess \) pretty boring visit , since every trip outdoors eats bit lox i'm certain home \( college \) life support system could last year let 's round 19 4 tonnes \( , since gd plan talks 9 7 ton payloads delivered lunar surface adds two , two , two shuttle flights put single man moon year hmmm really practical anyone got cheaper better way delivering 15 20 tonnes lunar surface within decade \? anyone precise guess much year 's supply consumables equipment would weigh \? wondering gd lev reusable \? discarded burn return leo \? discarded , could \? henry know anything gd lev \? noted uses rl 10 engines n't reusable \? would lev fit dc 1 \? 've forgotten \( ever knew \) cargo bay dimensions dc 1 , i'm certain single goal prize staying moon year wise useful prize first non government unmanned moon landing , another manned moon landing , yet another system extract consumables lunar soil , another reusable earth moon shuttle , forth find way build civilian moonbase infrastructure single goal might result bunch giving one person appeared win n't give , find something little scary half dozen people little moon shelters 'd like see much reward co operation competition lastly , ten fifteen years back seem recall english space magazine going discussion cheap recalled discussed things like much heat human body produced , much lunar material 'd need protection solar flares , etc unfortunately n't remember name magazine ring bell anyone \? craig keithley n't remember , n't recall , apple computer , inc got memory anything keithley apple com peter gabriel , third album \( 1980 \)
msb sq sq com \( mark brader \) subject comet temporary orbit around jupiter \? organization softquad inc , toronto , canada lines 20 also , peri jove gehrels3 april 1973 83 jupiter radii august 1970 3 jupiter radii 1 jupiter radius 71 , 000 km 44 , 000 mi 0 0005 au sorry , perijoves i'm used talking language thanks one final question name gehrels n't known thread came , may issue scientific american article inconstant cosmos , photo neil gehrels , project scientist nasa 's compton gamma ray observatory person \? mark brader , softquad inc , toronto information ! want information ! utzoo ! sq ! msb , msb sq com prisoner article public domain
baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov \( ron baalke \) subject iapetus saturn eclipse organization jet propulsion laboratory lines 79 distribution world nntp posting host kelvin jpl nasa gov news software vax vms vnews 1 41 forwarded john spencer \( spencer lowell edu \) two iapetus saturn rings , may july please spread word ! 's information events , couple messages jay jpl appealing thermal observations eclipse learn thermal properties iapetus might also money available john spencer , 1993 04 21 iapetus shadows saturn 's rings saturn 1993 05 01 02 \( 18 27 13 43 ut \) 1993 07 20 21 , \( 21 16 09 38 ut \) timing follows 1993 may 1 2 ring ingress 18 27 egress 19 30 b ring ingress 19 51 egress 21 42 c ring egress 23 00 saturn ingress 23 59 egress 10 02 b ring ingress 10 28 egress 12 19 ring ingress 12 40 egress 13 43 1993 july 20 21 saturn ingress 21 16 egress 05 08 ring ingress 05 13 \( grazing \) egress 09 38 times could 30 minutes later according alternate ephemeris , observations important orbit sun 's size projected rings seen iapetus 3100 km 's unlikely learn anything new rings observations see \( 1992 \) , astronomy astrophysics 265 , details thanks andy odell northern arizona university bringing events attention thermal observations \? jay \( jpl nasa gov \) writes , interesting thing would thermal ir 20 july disappearance shadow planet measure thermal inertia , etc unfortunately , 21 30 ut event renders inaccessible , except russia even alto , saturn rising 3 23 00 ut know anyone russia ukraine big telescope 10 um instrumentation 's looking something \? 'd willing make personal grant 100 data jay please try encourage anyone observe iapetus planet disappearance thermal wavelengths impression would 's easy observation iapetus faint getting eclipse , 'll need big telescope 's good ir telescope reasonable 10 20 um instrumentation n't think combination widely available well placed observation need one one possibility would ir telescope india , 's 1 2 jay ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab \) 525 3684 telos aweto new zealand pasadena , ca 91109 part caterpillar part vegetable
nas nasa gov \( al \) subject space colony size preferences summary organization applied research office , nasa ames research center reply nas nasa gov distribution sci space lines 92 time ago sent following message every design orbital space colony i'm gearing another one 'd info move onto space colony live permanently , big would colony view permanent move desirable \? specifically , many people want share colony \? physical dimensions living need \? assume 1g living \( colony rotate \) assume leave time time business trips 're young enough , assume 'll raise children n't get lot responses , block thanx responded , good food thought 's \( edited \) responses got many people want share colony \? 100 physical dimensions living need \? cylinder diameter x 1 km long rui sousa saber si pt many people want share colony \? 100 , 000 250 , 000 physical dimensions living need \? 100 square surface , divided city , towns , villages countryside must lakes , rivers amd mountains many 1000 1000 people really n't large number everyone know everyone else within space year , probably sick everyone else within another year physical dimensions living need \? hm great figuring would maximize percentage colony space accessible humans children , since figure go everywhere anyways everyone , especially , likes go exploring would want able go walk see something different time population , think would want substantial town big enough strangers helps get away small town everybody knows everything syndrome , people like n't call several thousand people physical dimensions , somewhat similar criterion big enough contain surprises , least spent considerable time getting know specific rule thumb , big enough places least hour away foot call , means circumference 're talking sphere henry spencer u toronto zoology henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry desires , permanent move space colony , assuming easy communication travel size small town size , say 9 sq km 'course , bigger better \) population 100 sq km less , 1000 less better elbow room , interest sanity , say max 3000 , min 300 tommy mac tom mcwilliams 517 355 2178 \( work \) inhale chief ! 18084tm ibm cl msu edu 336 9591 \( hm \) zonker harris 1996 !
n4hy harder ccr p ida org \( bob mcgwier \) subject navstar positions organization ida center communications research lines 11 distribution world nntp posting host harder ccr p ida org reply thomas enblom eos ericsson se 's message 19 apr 93 06 34 55 gmt missed something big difference plane exactly state \( positions velocities equal \) addition , always proposed bob robert w mcgwier n4hy ccr p ida org center communications research interests amateur radio , astronomy , golf princeton , n j asst troop 5700 ,
abdkw stdvax \( david ward \) subject keeping spacecraft funding cuts news software vax vms vnews 1 4 b1 organization goddard space flight center robotics lab lines 34 article kelvin jpl nasa gov , baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov \( ron baalke \) writes article 1993apr20 zeus calpoly edu , jgreen trumpet calpoly edu \( james thomas green \) writes spacecraft shut funding cuts example , could n't magellan told go safe mode stay bobbing venus low power use mode maybe years funding gets restored economy gets better \( hopefully \) , could turned , problem political one , technical one also remember every dollar spent keeping one spacecraft safe mode \( probably spin stabilized sun pointing orientation \) dollar spent mission analysis newer spacecraft order turn spacecraft back , either need insure ops guys available , need retrain new team said , spacecraft proposed many operational satellites goddard flies \( like noaa series \) require one satellite orbit operational set extras get replaced orbit powered standby mode use emergency case , however , ops team still required fly operational birds standby maintenance relatively cheap finally , pat 's explanation \( spacecraft require continuous maintenance stay control \) also right mark suggested spin stabilized control mode would require little power maintenance , still might require momentum dumping time time end , political decision \( since difference money \) , technical rationale behind decision david w gsfc
sneezy phy duke edu \( charles chung \) subject ussr reached moon first \? lines 24 nntp posting host phy duke edu article 1993apr20 ke4zv uucp gary ke4zv uucp \( gary coffman \) writes think least couple centuries significant commerical activity moon \? wishful thinking mostly lots stuff commerical moonbase believe finally motivate people leave earth \? i'm trying flame want know stand chuck chuck chung \( 919 \) 660 \( \) duke university dept physics \( 919 \) 684 \( h \) durham , n c phy duke edu pro opposite con , opposite progress \?
dennisn ecs comm mot com \( dennis newkirk \) subject proton centaur \? organization motorola nntp posting host 145 1 146 43 lines 37 article 1993apr20 211638 168730 zeus calpoly edu jgreen trumpet calpoly edu \( james thomas green \) writes anyone looked possiblity proton centaur combo \? would benefits problems combo \( obvious instability \) \? n't seen speculation , salyut kb \( design bureau \) planning new lh lox second stage proton would boost payload leo 21000 kg \( geostationary goes 2600 kg \( gals launcher version \) 6000 kg scheme competing energia last year n't heard , except recently read central specialized kb working successor soyuz booster must energia early results energia , guess , nothing clear russia i'm sure salyut kb gets funds someone continue development centaur 3 meters dia proton 4 's good fit existing upper stage , block sets inside 4 meters dia n't know launch loads , etc since centaur survives titan launches probably worse proton \( titan srb 's probably shake things pretty good \) seems feasible except , centaur fragile thing may require integration pad available assembled transported anyone know much stress way payload centaur could support proton horizontally taken rail road track erected pad \? would also need lox lh facilities added proton pads \( unless new proton second stage actually built \) , course centaur support systems facilities , doubt imported us great cost systems may us law political problems solve addition cis mention dennis newkirk \( dennisn ecs comm mot com \) motorola , land mobile products sector schaumburg , il
wallacen cs colostate edu \( nathan wallace \) subject level 5 reply wallacen cs colostate edu nntp posting host cs colostate edu organization colorado state university computer science dept lines 15 according software engineering professor , actually rated level five ibm unit produced part software shuttle , means interesting note 90 software development groups surveyed level 1 ibm shuttle groups one level 5 ! c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c nathan f wallace c c reality c c e mail wallacen cs colostate edu c c ancient proverb c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c
stanford edu \( h stevens \) subject proton centaur \? organization stanford lines 59 article 1993apr21 lmpsbbs comm mot com , dennisn ecs comm mot com \( dennis newkirk \) writes article 1993apr20 211638 168730 zeus calpoly edu jgreen trumpet calpoly edu \( james thomas green \) writes anyone looked possiblity proton centaur combo \? would benefits problems combo \( obvious instability \) \? centaur 3 meters dia proton 4 's good fit existing upper stage , block sets inside 4 meters dia n't know launch loads , etc since centaur survives titan launches probably worse proton \( titan srb 's probably shake things pretty good \) seems feasible except , centaur fragile thing may require integration pad available assembled transported anyone know much stress way payload centaur could support proton horizontally taken rail road track erected pad \? centaur built t4 would better bet integrate onto proton t4 centaur designed extremely harsh t4 launch also closer 4 diameter 've hit real kicker , however centaur pressure stabilized cannot hold weight without pressure tanks additionally , pressure difference two tanks must maintained 5 psi rather tight rocking rolling train pressure centaur achieves performance numerous occasions \( 88 91 \) af wanted see would take make non pressure stabilized centaur answer centaur worth launching atlas centaur require pad integration , however t4 centaur believe pad integration great extent due requirements configuration , maybe something done would also need lox lh facilities added proton pads \( unless new proton second stage actually built \) , course centaur support systems facilities , doubt imported us great cost systems may us law political problems solve addition cis mention addition lox lh facilities critical centaur tops lifts lhe facility also needed n't know proton uses fuel , since derived icbm 's would suspect use propellants n't problem cryo 's cryo sight , addition systems could big , mention real tech transfer issues involved providing centaur russia issue alone might enough kill idea h stevens stanford university email sun valley stanford edu aerospace robotics laboratory phone \( 415 \) 725 \( lab \) building \( 415 \) 722 3296 \( bullpen \) stanford , ca 94305 fax \( 415 \) 725 3377
jgreen trumpet calpoly edu \( james thomas green \) subject keeping spacecraft funding cuts article zeus 1993apr22 organization california polytechnic state university , san luis obispo lines 32 prb access digex com \( pat \) pontificated birds require constant management survival pointing sensor sun , even powered , may burn pointing parabolic antenna sol , venus orbit may trash foci elements getting post whether might possible put enough brains board future deep space probes automatically avoid things looking sun going uncontrolled heard voyagers routine built essentially says never hear earth , 's back event receiver burnt probe could still send data \( limited , still data \) even let teh bird drift , may get hosed cosmic phenomena since would shutdown may never refunded startup , type cosmic took probe , might big loss obviously ca n't plan everything , obvious things considered \( james green \) \( jgreen oboe calpoly edu \) know believe understand think said sure realize said meant
stanford edu \( h stevens \) subject inflatable mile long space billboards \( vandalizing sky \) organization stanford lines 38 article yamauchi ces cwru edu , yamauchi ces cwru edu \( brian yamauchi \) writes nasa would provide contractual launch services however , since nasa bases charge seriously flawed cost estimates \( wn 26 mar 93 \) taxpayers would bear expense may look like environmental vandalism , mike lawson , ceo space marketing , told us yesterday real purpose project help environment ! platform carry ozone monitors explained advertising help defray costs may purpose university colorado people guess purpose livermore people learn build large , inflatable space structures cu people , continue big ozone scientists consistent also consistent new comercial applications nasa clinton pushing hard nasa really supporting junk \? anyone catch rocket launched movie advert \? think rocket people got alot painting sides movie stuff coke pepsi thing years back \? nasa trying find ways get people space funding business time frankly , 've thought trying funding gets tight , innovative get funded one things nasa big co funding pi show co funding proposal , proposal significantly higher probability funded proposal merit co funding , money talks ! h stevens stanford university email sun valley stanford edu aerospace robotics laboratory phone \( 415 \) 725 \( lab \) building \( 415 \) 722 3296 \( bullpen \) stanford , ca 94305 fax \( 415 \) 725 3377
djf cck coventry ac uk \( marvin batty \) subject vandalizing sky nntp posting host cc sysk organization starfleet , coventry , uk lines 30 article c5t05k db6 research canon oz au enzo research canon oz au \( enzo liguori \) writes article 's new apr 16 93 sci physics research what's new \( opinion \) , friday , 16 april 1993 washington , dc 1 space billboards ! one spinoffs promised \? 1950 , science fiction writer robert heinlein published man sold moon , involved dispute sale rights moon use billboard nasa taken toward hideous vision future observers startled spring nasa launch vehicle arrived pad schwarzenegger painted huge block letters side booster rockets things could worse lot worse ! mid eighties teen adult sci fi comic \( \) produced short story featuring award winning character judge story focussed advertising agency future use high powered multi coloured lasers search lights pointed moon paint images moon needless say , use hacked load lovers , crazies ad guys got chopped , service discontinued tale indeed ! marvin batty marvin batty djf uk ac cov cck shall find things , sort rafia like base , fathers put night 8 o'clock !
crackle uucp \( stan \) subject mars observer update 04 14 93 organization university adelaide lines 30 distribution world nntp posting host crackle itd adelaide edu au keywords mars observer , jpl i'm astronomer adelaide australia , today , heard interesting exciting news local program tv could n't find anything news server , posted however , old information , tell , ill sue tv station saying \) \( also , news server could slow ! ! ! caught end article , information topic known moment news small planet outside orbit pluto found , report meant , large distance orbit \( computer drawing , orbit distance pluto neptune pluto apart found oh called \( un officially \) anyone give information \? \? \? thanx brendan crackle adelaide edu au btw old news , anyone know good lawyer 8 \)
jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu \( josh hopkins \) subject vandalizing sky organization university illinois urbana lines 50 yamauchi ces cwru edu \( brian yamauchi \) writes enzo research canon oz au \( enzo liguori \) writes what's new \( opinion \) , friday , 16 april 1993 washington , dc 1 space billboards ! one spinoffs promised \? 1950 , science fiction writer robert heinlein published man sold moon , involved dispute sale rights moon use billboard nasa taken toward hideous vision future observers startled spring nasa launch vehicle arrived pad schwarzenegger painted huge block letters side booster rockets space marketing inc arranged ad promote arnold 's latest movie well , 're going get upset , might well direct moral outrage towards well capitalist application booster long nasa fact , direct ire proper target nasa altogether rocket commercial launch conestoga flying comet payload nasa simply primary customer believe sdio small payload well advertising space sold owners rocket , whatever darn well please addition , anonymous observers reason startled deal made space news least twice , space marketing working university colorado livermore engineers plan place mile long inflatable billboard low earth orbit nasa would provide contractual launch services however , since nasa bases charge seriously flawed cost estimates \( wn 26 mar 93 \) taxpayers would bear expense nasa really supporting junk \? anyone details wn news blip \? serious project \? wild idea stage real funding \? think fair find everyone starts fit fact bothered use conditional tense suggests yet approved josh hopkins jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu find way make one attributed hannibal
jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu \( josh hopkins \) subject lindbergh moon \( give 1g \) organization university illinois urbana lines 42 mancus sweetpea jsc nasa gov \( keith mancus \) writes cook varmit mdc com \( layne cook \) writes talk commercial space race \( e 1g first 1 year moon base \) intriguing similar prizes influenced aerospace development 25k orteig prize helped lindbergh sell spirit saint louis venture financial backers strongly suspect saint louis backers foresight realize much stake 25 , 000 could work moon \? far sighted financial backers today \? commercial uses transportation system already settled civilized areas obvious spaceflight position correct analogy aviation '30 's , long voyages age discovery lindbergh 's flight took place , thirties n't require gov't fund long something known potential profit destination practice , gov't funded , private could give examples privately funded ones \? way wise investor would spend large amount money risky investment idea possible payoff logic certainly applies standard investment strategies however , concept prize difficult goal done different reasons , suspect i'm aware mr orteig received significant economic benefit lindbergh 's flight modern analogies , prize human powered helicopter face similar arguments little economic benefit thing advantage comes new approaches developed fact prize frequently generate far work equivalent amount direct investment would person puts x billion moon base much likely want see done expect make money deal josh hopkins jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu find way make one attributed hannibal
nsmca aurora alaska edu subject crazy \? imaginitive \? lines 20 nntp posting host acad3 alaska edu organization university alaska fairbanks nice quote like \( close remember \) say something think crazy , ask mean think crazy ideas bit odd , wall , wilbur orville wright , quite others sorry big degrees , think \( might wrong , error human \) something many ways important , imagination , dreams without dreams knowledge worthless sorry two cents worth two rubles worth \? basic quote idea h beam book space good book civilization fall , raised new heights unfortunately h beam piper killed self weeks short first book published , ideas see light waste
nsmca aurora alaska edu subject moonbase race , nasa resources , \? lines 32 nntp posting host acad3 alaska edu organization university alaska fairbanks article mojo eng umd edu , sysmgr king eng umd edu \( doug mohney \) writes article zoo toronto edu , henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) writes apollo done hard way , big hurry , limited technology base government contracts privately , rather government project , cuts costs factor several much would cost private venture , assuming could talk u government leasing couple pads florida \? software engineering \? 's like military intelligence , n't \? sysmgr cadlab eng umd edu must us government space launch pad \? directly mean know could launch small package space including ariadne , russian sites know poker alaska , thou used sounding rockets auroral \( sp northern atmospheric items , last heard upgraded able put sattelites orbit must people us fixed using direct resources \( poker part nasa , also alaska , geophysical institute \) sounds like typical us cultural people wonder multi trillion dollar \( sp \) yes , working spell checker michael adams , nsmca acad3 alaska edu i'm high , jacked
amruth laxman andrew cmu edu subject surviving large accelerations \? organization junior , electrical computer engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 16 nntp posting host po5 andrew cmu edu hi , reading spaceflight handbook somewhere author discusses solar sails forces acting try gain initial acceleration passing close sun hyperbolic orbit magnitude accelerations estimated order also says may big problem manned craft humans \( published 1986 \) already withstood accelerations 45g long winded 's question finally 45g accelerations fact humanly tolerable \? aid mechanical devices course possible , used absorb acceleration \? extended larger accelerations \? thanks advance amruth laxman
nsmca aurora alaska edu subject eco freaks forcing space mining article aurora 1993apr21 1 organization university alaska fairbanks lines 24 nntp posting host acad3 alaska edu way get commericial companies space mineral exploration basically get freaks make hard get minerals earth think crazy well way , way reality congress basically make expensive mine minerals us , unless inspectors tax collectors understand talking miner friends mine , \( congress \) propose tax gross income mine , versus adjusted income , also state governments normal taxes time get done , paying materials , workers , expenses owe made basically make 1000 00 spend 500 expenses , owe 600 00 federal taxes driving miners land benefit eco freaks basically get back beginning statement , space way go cause might get expensive mine earth either eco freaks fun interesting times michael adams , nsmca acad3 alaska edu i'm high , jacked
access digex com \( jordan katz \) subject ssrt roll speech organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 101 distribution usa nntp posting host access digex net ssrt rollout speech delivered col simon p worden , deputy technology , sdio mcdonnell douglas huntington beach april 3 , 1993 , , children 1960 's grew age miracles inter continental ballistic missiles , nuclear energy , computers , flights moon miracles parent 's decade pundits told us 've lost ! generation living accomplishments past even begun believe listen awe past generation tells triumphs living history privileged hear tell weeks ago team listened awe general bernie told team 's work yes struggle build nation 's ballistic missile stories tell \? blurry eyed telescopes \? thousand dollar toilet seats \? even space launch vehicles past great time seem destined remain gen 's find hard swell pride best new space lifter idea old poseidon ballistic missiles well wrong legacy continuing event proof technological parents 've listened stories 've caught enthusiasm spirit 've learned achievements mistakes let honor one part history impetus behind history max hunter one greatest engineers great age space exploration insight discipline built thor icbm later incorporated today 's successful launch vehicle delta told us 60 's new form launch vehicle single stage reusable rocket built advocated idea elegantly simple , great breakthroughs showed us build convinced us could done working side weld components place important reminded us prime engineering principle undoubtably one learned generation generation built aviation 1920 's 30 's build little test little max , passed people like pat started program sdi douglas aircraft n't start dc 10 n't even start dc 3 grandfathers built little , tested little even sold little made little money moved next step n't take decade putting first rubber road max hunter n't take ten years build thor , god 're going take ten years show low cost , single stage , reusable aerospace transportation real ended cold war short years took team today years show strategic defense initiative cold war must end us launched series satellites delta experiments year apiece , anything else commitment end impasse soviet union made decisions sides importance work bringing new international relationship team putting place framework aerospace expansion legacy next generation make space access routine affordable built flying machine two years summer true rocket ship take land earth first time surely build next three years reusable sub orbital rocket allow us use space rapidly , , efficiently nation yes 'll make little money ! 'll spend another three years build fully reusable single stage orbit system dc 3 space reality ! may even able use rocket propulsion breakthroughs former cold war adversaries wonderful irony sdi product russian efforts counter sdi merge power mankind 's next step stars ! sure , must guard leap final answer robert goddard 's first rockets n't saturn v 's ! succumb temptation ask extra dollars years jump immediately full orbital system fail max hunter colleagues showed way three years cloud dust case rocket exhausts short cut expect world must one brick time minds tasks hand ! project real torch american technological greatness passed americans machine american let 's go fly !
access digex com \( jordan katz \) subject u space foundation speech organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 94 distribution usa nntp posting host access digex net speech pete worden delivered u space foundation conference colorado springs , colorado april 15 , 1993 delightful opportunity cause trouble providing forum would sincerely like thank u space foundation topic today single stage rocket technology rocket ssrt intend speak lower cost make rapid progress ssrt mind hope convince erupting new cry generation space faster , cheaper , better faster , cheaper , better ssrt represent passing torch one technical generation another new thing sure also old things past masters rolled ssrt baby two weeks ago , called experts told us violates laws physics made sense example , dr former president aerospace corp , said ssrt l times , defies best principles launching payloads space well dr 've made us mad ! principles ssrt defies \? well 'll tell violates principle need giant program office build space hardware violates fact takes 20 years build something new violates cant anything significant less many billions dollars took last generation 's experts teach us new old lessons von braun 's first rocket saturn v general 's icbm 's n't take ten years demonstrate x 1 airplane n't cost 1 billion took one great engineers 1950 's remind us truths max hunter max , remind , senior engineer thor program , old faster , better , cheaper success story max persistent vision single stage reusable space launch system since 1960 's knew done affordable steps build little , test little next persuaded us technology demonstration n't solicit bunch requirements 'd change every years anyway included speech als nls requirements would better known shape shifter space lifter n't spend lot money x rocket cost 60 million 's last time even built new airplane \? n't take lot time build mcdonnell douglas completed 18 months finally , government program office consisted one worked air force major motivated part threat 'd get ride strapped lawn chair ran cost schedule described ssrt n't keep mind first step several steps steps easily fail u field ssto step follow principles small management team years technology demonstration modest budget let show details ssrt might evolve \( see charts \) i'm embarrassed generation compared last generation giants last great space era , 1950 's 1960 's went moon built telescope ca n't see straight soft landed mars least could soft land earth ! answer follow build little , test little philosophy produce truly affordable routine access space know nay sayers among say ssrt stunt needs thermal protection , engines wrong , would better land horizontally , etc , etc say 'll see white sands june bring view graphs , 'll bring say , let us next step included speech fail still program offices , staff summary sheets , requirement analyses , decade long programs bet generation max hunter 's idea takers \?
prb access digex com \( pat \) subject commercial mining activities moon organization express access online communications usa lines 10 nntp posting host access digex net article mojo eng umd edu sysmgr king eng umd edu writes article steinly topaz ucsc edu , steinly topaz ucsc edu \( steinn sigurdsson \) writes cost effective use right accounting method \) sherzer methodology ! ! ! ! ! ! let never said opportunity missed put someone
prb access digex com \( pat \) subject proton centaur \? organization express access online communications usa lines 15 nntp posting host access digex net well thank dennis usual highly detailed informative posting question proton , could handled one ksc 's spare pads , without major malfunction , could handled kourou vandenberg \? uses , long would take russians equip something cape york \? proton launched western site , would compare t4 centaur \? see , lift close t4 pat
loss fs7 ece cmu edu \( doug loss \) subject crazy \? imaginitive \? organization electrical computer engineering , carnegie mellon lines 22 article 1993apr21 1 aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes unfortunately h beam piper killed self weeks short first book published , ideas see light waste piper lived town \( , pa \) killed early '60 's books published time , luck financially rumor hunting urban food viewed man , \( imo \) decided check gracefully could n't support worst part john campbell , long time editor astounding analog sf magazine cut check piper 's recent story , said check mail campbell known piper 's , i'm sure would phoned say hang campbell like wish happened differently always enjoyed piper 's stuff doug loss
pgf srl03 cacs usl edu \( phil g fraering \) subject comet temporary orbit around jupiter \? organization univ southwestern louisiana lines 28 msb sq sq com \( mark brader \) writes thanks one final question name gehrels n't known thread came , may issue scientific american article inconstant cosmos , photo neil gehrels , project scientist nasa 's compton gamma ray observatory person \? estimate 99 probability gehrels referred thomas gehrels spacewatch project , kitt peak observatory maybe 24th century could gamma ray spectroscopy distant asteroids orbiting observatory , primitive 20th send probe get gamma ray spectroscopy done mark brader , softquad inc , toronto information ! want information ! utzoo ! sq ! msb , msb sq com prisoner info television yet \? article public domain phil fraering seems like every day find sorts stuff pgf srl02 cacs usl edu like ancient mayans televison repo man
gene theporch raider net \( gene wright \) subject give 1 billion first year long moon residents \? organization macinteresteds nashville , tn lines 8 forget apollo government program start relatively scratch people nasa think could work one replied personally posted original message several days ago heard jerry suggest idea gene theporch raider net \( gene wright \) theporch raider net 615 297 7951 macinteresteds nashville
pgf srl03 cacs usl edu \( phil g fraering \) subject vandalizing sky organization univ southwestern louisiana lines 49 hoover mathematik uni bielefeld de \( uwe \) writes article c5t05k db6 research canon oz au enzo research canon oz au \( enzo liguori \) writes hideous vision future observers startled spring nasa launch vehicle arrived pad schwarzenegger painted huge block letters ok opinion long stuff returns earth think revolting hideous attempt vandalize night sky \? even april 1 anymore turns true , 's time get seriously active terrorism unbelievable ! people think , selling every bit promises make money \? guess really deserve wiped uv radiation , folks stupidity wins guess 's true , pure numbers another depressed planetary citizen , hoover n't inherently bad n't really light pollution since visible shortly dusk \( day \) \( course , night lasts 2 hours , 're probably going 're anyway case \) finally n't bronze age , us n't indo european people speaking indo languages often much non indo european ancestry cultural background please try remember human activities practiced warrior caste , farming caste , priesthood act distressed someone 's found way research n't involve socialism \? n't mean deserve die phil fraering seems like every day find sorts stuff pgf srl02 cacs usl edu like ancient mayans televison repo man
wats scicom alphacdc com \( bruce watson \) subject boom ! whoosh organization alpha science computer network , denver , co lines 14 article 1993apr21 mnemosyne cs du edu wdwells nyx cs du edu \( david fuzzy wells \) writes love idea inflatable 1 mile long sign really neat thing see explode bolt \( even better , westford needle ! \) comes crashing 10 clicks sec two echo balloons inflated substance expanded vacuum inflated substance longer needed since nothing cause balloon collapse inflatable structure could suffer multiple holes disastrous bruce watson \( wats scicom alphacdc com \) bulletin 629 49 item 6700 extract 75 , 131
wats scicom alphacdc com \( bruce watson \) subject first spacewalk distribution sci organization alpha science computer network , denver , co lines 13 article 1 cs cmu edu flb flb optiplan fi \( f baube tm \) writes one time speculation first spacewalk \( alexei \? \) staged fake evidence support contradict claim emerged \? claim perhaps another cold war hallucination \? , one , would avid reader sci space ussr really happened bruce watson \( wats scicom alphacdc com \) bulletin 629 49 item 6700 extract 75 , 131
dmcaloon tuba calpoly edu \( david mcaloon \) subject planets still images orbit ether twist organization california polytechnic state university , san luis obispo lines 234 ether implodes 2 earth core , gravity ! ! ! paper describes heavenly stationary , ether sucking structures , observe orbital motion ! ! ether , theoretical propogation media electro magnetic waves , concluded exist , based results michelson experiment conducted century ago propose conclusions flawed , based fact experiment designed look flow parallel earth 's surface , \( due prevailing assumption earth traveled ether ball wind \) reversal conclusion , keystone development modern scientific thought , could ramifications biblical proportions world ! ! remember einstien said imagination greater knowledge ! ! 1 dream like ether based reality ether like fluid phase reality creations start lattice placed ether given spin , drag fluid , like blender , , converting , localized mass , time energy \( non spinning lattice dark matter \) earth n't exactly spinning , around sun picture image galaxy n't videos spinning picture us stationary , sun 's image dragged across sky spinning ether field \( picture onion , layer spinning little faster next thread shot inner kernel would stretched sideways , head faster shell tail , finally ground inner kernel , direction vector straight , foot print line , point sunrise , sunset \) moon n't exactly orbiting us , \( non self spin sustaining \) dragged earth 's ether field , sun 's much powerful field seasons earth 's axis , like top slowing orbit earth around sun stars' images dragged around sun 's ether earth , moon sun size distance apart time varies greatly , path moon 's lattice ether like sticking fork plate spaghetti giving plate half turn sun 's lattice much spin like fork got whole plate wound piece light going moon slide spaghetti maybe make j hook end piece light going sun go around whole plate , like needle record , gets pencil , compass , rule , draw diagram moon big earth 's shadow upon , times totally eclipse sun look sky except knowledge , would guess size , look size \? e e full moon , quarter moon etc difference rate ether spins looking rotating view moon , half facing sun \( 've seen half moon within 120 degrees \( sky \) sun , day try draw earth shadow \) moon 's image appears orbit us matter , light part part facing sun , dark part half facing away sun , even appears behind us light years galaxies misnomer distance closer zero , time matter characteristics phase reality , outward layer onion \( defining edge 0 ether spin \) seeing could essentially happening piece light may experienced many years , trip could quick , time time travel warp space might consider learning de spin \( phase mass \) good luck trying design propulsion system drag around space time locality \( like trying move balloon shooting gun within \) find , recommend studying history 'd look book life \( holy grail etc \) brain waves might carry decipherable data 'd start looking part spectra said unusable , due background noise \( 4 billion humans \? \) 'd totally isolate , record thinking dog backwards , learn read got \( microsoft holy grail card pentium ! \) next , concluding thoughts recorded non time bound media , ether , move forward \( time \) would try temporarily locally reverse flow , \( time , 'd start looking flowing opposite , pole pole \? \) perhaps passing large , flat dc current two foot diameter coil choke something , seeing could get machine 's receiver next n't think 'll live see , consider quit putting reproductive keys life body ! life 's data could written wind , \( ether \) thoughts dna could little receiver file access code eating seeds , could reception , receiving plant instructions try eating seed bearing fruit maybe greek biblical guys live hundreds years i'm see ate n't worry hair stops growing \( maybe n't need eat , cosmos formed nothing , creating matter ! need enough bounce around household concept come \? wheat weed , programmed pull soil , reproduce like hell , die \) warning writing past little dream world , near parallel future , lying along path history twelve , glowing beings , looked like oscar award always , dark one looked like us , dark one process making others gods , \( teach meant \) advising past basically , manipulated reproducing , raising children seed said little ones looked different sub species , meant provide service carefully history , rewriting favor , pulling like weed anything compromised control sending visions , saying immortality end road twelve souls kill killed amount control could exert finite , though , every change made , void would appear reality universe one day ended 100 meters us seemed odd , could n't remember else twelve finally , could , reality stopped beyond fingertips , stepped portal past , , , created made changes , lost body , existing wind moral possible eliminate reality souls whose 's harmony \( golden rule treat others wish treated \) e , could end along lonely thread time murderers brown \( eternal , 's one way back \) accepting rides past , one looks like us sells rides , make prince , queen , live god ancient greece go ahead , repeat third grade often like , adam henry hope like socks careful though , likes work , thinks 're getting wise , direct cross paths old self , 'll vanish rewrite course history , none wiser pass point along parallel line stepped back time , hierarchy lose direction still make changes 's , work , every , becomes less world cultivated , grip , organization suddenly one branch less ca n't see change basic nature man good apply hand achieve world tightens hand retain built , sand slips fingers public computer access r \? country , money , 're spending us , right \? imagine washington marks next cost 8 , irs collects 10 , gives 5 congress , absolutely 5 congress 2 banks making , , 30 margin \( interest \) government \? big corporations ecstatic 10 margin banks \? hold carrot world , sure , mostly , bury \? food production 2 gnp \? , construction 6 \? 14 hours build auto \? people spending time buy back tenth produce deceived \? efficient , getting harder get \? point keep people busy making widgets \? reality , shouted twelve , chaos ! said , , order defined chaos able control rain forest problem could water would hide location indigenous people language \( closest knowledge death \) \( think spine transceiver , ground pointed , locate \) people probably naive children , , tough kill also , able tell stories dark one talk hear think ham world band radio old timers might story tell people would different frequency us n't eating seeds famine relief make diet almost whole wheat , get huge belly , lose muscle mass , sleep lot , get sick eat fresh fruit , get energy , hollywood flat belly , need lot less sleep un peace keeping fighting killing troops go bread shelf \( ok kill , make sure enough eat \) somalia disturbing energetic , gun carrying , three foot tall sixteen year olds , eat nothing roots suck much growth , n't dying rate 50 60 years per life women children , babes arms historical references women children single unit could mean infants cut umbilical cord \( hence , breast fed \) think may interesting results , mother child telepathy , blue blooded infants examples practice mammal kingdom investigate guy master illusion , ultimate liar tells first , follows thread time people willing buy \( make \) 'll play poker face thinks 's , 'll whine , beg grovel means 're willing live ground work laid , , right , n't play hand , wo n't need go back try another thread time ultimate control destiny , n't live along path leads reality n't want part n't claim first think things , others could path maybe thoughts given laid track time ,
microwave msfc nasa gov \( g patrick \) subject eco freaks forcing space mining nntp posting host 128 158 30 103 reply microwave msfc nasa gov \( g patrick \) organization nasa msfc lines 40 article 1993apr21 1 aurora alaska edu , nsmca aurora alaska edu writes way get commericial companies space mineral exploration basically get freaks make hard get minerals earth think crazy well way , way reality congress basically make expensive mine minerals us , unless inspectors tax collectors understand talking miner friends mine , \( congress \) propose tax gross income mine , versus adjusted income , also state governments normal taxes time get done , paying materials , workers , expenses owe made basically make 1000 00 spend 500 expenses , owe 600 00 federal taxes driving miners land benefit eco freaks basically get back beginning statement , space way go cause might get expensive mine earth either eco freaks fun interesting times michael adams , nsmca acad3 alaska edu i'm high , jacked current mining regulations fees set 1800 's ! called eco freaks want simply bring fees line current economic reality currently , mining companies get access minerals public lands ridiculously low prices something like 50 ! mining lobby decades managed block reform outdated fees fact , latest attempt reform blocked president clinton compromised taking mining fee reforms '94 budget , plans draft separate legislation fight battle want discuss , suggest take talk environment g patrick huntsville , alabama
lpl arizona edu \( jim \) subject comet temporary orbit around jupiter \? organization lunar planetary laboratory , tucson az lines 33 article 1993apr21 sq sq com msb sq sq com \( mark brader \) writes also , peri jove gehrels3 april 1973 83 jupiter radii august 1970 3 jupiter radii 1 jupiter radius 71 , 000 km 44 , 000 mi 0 0005 au sorry , perijoves i'm used talking language thanks one final question name gehrels n't known thread came , may issue scientific american article inconstant cosmos , photo neil gehrels , project scientist nasa 's compton gamma ray observatory person \? neil gehrels prof tom gehrels son tom gehrels p gehrels 3 \( well 4 comets latest bear name , rather name spacewatch since observing system found latest comet \) mark brader , softquad inc , toronto information ! want information ! utzoo ! sq ! msb , msb sq com prisoner jim lpl arizona edu lunar planetary laboratory university arizona tucson , az 85721 usa
cain fsu edu \( joe cain \) subject keeping spacecraft funding cuts organization florida state university geology dept lines 4 discussion better followed talk politics space joseph cain cain fsu edu cain fsu bitnet scri cain \( 904 \) 644 fax \( 904 \) 644
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject moonbase race , nasa resources , \? organization u toronto zoology lines 33 article 1993apr21 1 aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes much would cost private venture , assuming could talk u government leasing couple pads florida \? must us government space launch pad \? directly mean fact , probably want avoid us government anything project invariably high , either money hassles important thing realize big cost getting moon getting low earth orbit everything else practically noise part getting moon poses new problems , beyond face low orbit , last actual landing immensely difficult course , spend \( saga metric prefix \) things launches , n't major component realistic plan go moon cheaply \( brief visit , least \) low cost transport earth orbit costs launch one shuttle two titan ivs , develop new launch system considerably cheaper \( delta clipper might bit expensive , perhaps , less ambitious ways bringing costs quite bit \) plan sustained lunar exploration using existing launch systems wasting money big way given , questions like whose launch facilities use minor detail important cost launches , dominates cost project work one man 's work henry spencer u toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject surviving large accelerations \? organization u toronto zoology lines 13 article andrew cmu edu amruth laxman andrew cmu edu writes 's question finally 45g accelerations fact humanly tolerable \? aid mechanical devices course possible , used absorb acceleration \? sounds bit high still higher accelerations endured briefly , violent deceleration 're talking sustained acceleration , think 30 odd demonstrated using water doubt another order magnitude work one man 's work henry spencer u toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
nick iam uni bonn de \( b \) subject sunrise sunset times organization applied math , university bonn , germany lines 15 related question \( n't given much serious thought \) average length day \( averaged whole year \) \? function constant 12 hours \? truly symmetric equator \? discrepancy due fact orbit \( maybe difference enough change temperature make seasons southern hemisphere bitter , far small make sizeable difference daylight hours \) \? want know move nick nick iam uni bonn de
rouben math umbc edu \( rouben rostamian \) subject sunrise sunset times organization university maryland , baltimore county campus lines 60 nntp posting host math umbc edu article 1993apr21 cbis ece drexel edu jpw cbis ece drexel edu \( joseph wetstein \) writes hello looking program \( algorithm \) used compute sunrise sunset times computation long time ago computes length daylight able convert information sunrise sunset times rouben rostamian telephone 410 455 department mathematics statistics e mail university maryland baltimore county bitnet rostamian umbc bitnet baltimore , md , usa internet rouben math umbc edu definitions z tilt axis planet away normal orbital plane case earth z 23 5 degrees , think recall exact value case uranus , z almost 90 degrees u latitude location length day measured paris 45 degrees north pole 90 angular position planet around sun goes 0 360 degrees , planet makes full circle around sun spring equinox occurs 0 l daylight fraction \( duration daylight \) \( duration full day \) equator \( u 0 \) l always 1 2 near north pole \( u 90 degrees \) l sometimes one sometimes zero , depending time year computation define auxiliary angles p q sin p sin sin z cos q h \( tan u tan p \) , \( 0 q 180 degrees \) conclusion l q 180 \( q measured degrees \) l q pi \( q measured \) wait ! h \? cutoff function h defined follows h \( \) 1 1 1 1 1 interesting exercise , plot l versus graph shows length daylight varies time year experiment various choices latitudes tilt angles compare behavior function locations arctic circle rouben rostamian telephone 410 455 department mathematics statistics e mail university maryland baltimore county bitnet rostamian umbc bitnet baltimore , md , usa internet rouben math umbc edu
jsc nasa gov \( doug egan \) subject help need addresses organization lines 19 1993apr20 ncsu edu jmcocker eos ncsu edu \( mitch \) writes i'm trying get mailing addresses following companies specifically , need addresses personnel offices like bureau companies space industries , inc \( somewhere houston \) 101 courageous dr city , tx phone \( 713 \) 538 6000 good luck ! doug doug egan 's got lockheed engineering sciences co 's give houston , tx tesla email egan blkbox com
prb access digex com \( pat \) subject keeping spacecraft funding cuts organization express access online communications usa lines 54 nntp posting host access digex net article 1993apr22 zeus calpoly edu jgreen trumpet calpoly edu \( james thomas green \) writes prb access digex com \( pat \) pontificated heard voyagers routine built essentially says never hear earth , 's back event receiver burnt probe could still send data \( limited , still data \) voyager unusual luck stable trajectory solar system 's collecting fields data , routinely one mariners also stable solar orbit , still providing similiar solar data something planetary orbit , subject much complex forces , stable orbits , require almost daily operations occasional deep space bird , like pluto , sure could left auto pilot things like galileo magellan , 'd suspect need enough housekeeping even 'd end unusable better question transfer birds separate agency continous funding support kind ongoing science missions pat ongoing ops mentioned , seems always quote operations data analysis much would cost collect data let analyzed whenever kinda like landsat data sat around 15 years someone analyzed ozone hole even let teh bird drift , may get hosed cosmic phenomena since would shutdown may never refunded startup , type cosmic took probe , might big loss obviously ca n't plan everything , obvious things considered \( james green \) \( jgreen oboe calpoly edu \) know believe understand think said sure realize said meant
prb access digex com \( pat \) subject eco freaks forcing space mining organization express access online communications usa lines 7 nntp posting host access digex net besides line horse puckey mining companies claimed told pay restoring land strip mining still mine coal midwest , n't look like moon done pat
prb access digex com \( pat \) subject dc 1 way future organization express access online communications , greenbelt md usa lines 20 nntp posting host access digex net read article computer technology stated every new computer technology actually lower slower replaced silicon less effective products available gaas less capable silicon multi processors slower existent single processors argument , though new technologies promised either theoretically future higher performance lower cost higher densities think dc 1 may g fit model elv 's certainly launch weight ssrt , ssrt offers prospect greater cycle times lower costs kind speculative posting , thought 'd throw framework interested project pat
gsh7w fermi clas virginia edu \( greg hennessy \) subject keeping spacecraft funding cuts organization university virginia lines 13 article access digex net prb access digex com \( pat \) writes better question transfer birds separate agency continous funding support kind ongoing science missions since n't money keep going , changing seperate agency help anything \? greg hennessy , university virginia usps mail astronomy department , charlottesville , va 22903 2475 usa internet gsh7w virginia edu uucp ! uunet ! virginia ! gsh7w
yamauchi ces cwru edu \( brian yamauchi \) subject dc x choice new generation \( ssrt roll speech \) organization case western reserve university lines 27 distribution world nntp posting host ces cwru edu reply access digex com 's message 21 apr 1993 22 09 32 0400 article access digex net access digex com \( jordan katz \) writes speech delivered col simon p worden , deputy technology , sdio , , children 1960 's grew age miracles inter continental ballistic missiles , nuclear energy , computers , flights moon miracles parent 's speech pete worden delivered u space foundation conference i'm embarrassed generation compared last generation giants last great space era , 1950 's 1960 's went moon built telescope ca n't see straight soft landed mars least could soft land earth ! curiousity , old worden \? brian yamauchi case western reserve university yamauchi alpha ces cwru edu department computer engineering science
aws iti org \( allen w sherzer \) subject eco freaks forcing space mining organization evil geniuses better tomorrow lines 16 article 1993apr21 1 aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes way get commericial companies space mineral exploration basically get freaks make hard get minerals earth raw materials cost enough getting space would cost effective entire world economy would long space mines could built allen lady astor sir , husband would poison coffee ! w churchill madam , wife , would drink 55 days first flight dcx
ajjb bnsc rl ac uk \( andrew broderick \) subject dc x dc organization rutherford appleton lab , uk lines 15 hi guys , 've hearing lots talk net dc x dc , none many posts actually explain ! ! ! sorry faq , would somebody please explain reply email please thanks andy ajjb bnsc rl ac uk andy jonathan j broderick , come might rutherford lab , uk life , full mail ajjb bnsc rl ac uk jesus christ
jdnicoll prism ccs uwo ca \( james davis nicoll \) subject dc 1 way future organization university western ontario , london nntp posting host prism uwo ca lines 9 hmmm seem recall attraction solid state record players radios 1960s n't better performance lower per unit cost vacuum tube systems mind , father vacuum tube fan 60s \( switched solid state mid seventies abruptly died doubt 's lesson \) account could biased james nicoll
nickh cs cmu edu \( nick haines \) subject vandalizing sky reply todd la locus com 's message wed , 21 apr 93 16 28 00 gmt originator nickh snow fox cs cmu edu nntp posting host snow fox cs cmu edu organization school computer science , carnegie mellon university 1993apr21 locus com lines 33 article 1993apr21 locus com todd la locus com \( todd johnson \) writes advertising sure , \? nasa friend spent one drunken night figuring exactly much gold mylar 'd need put golden arches certain american fast food organization face moon fortunately , morning hmmm actually n't much , \? like 2 million km 2 \( think sounds like lot , 's tens 2 per burger said organization sold last year \) 'd best reflective substance could sprayed unmanned craft lunar orbit \( , rather , large set craft \) get reasonable albedo would visible even new moon \( since moon quite dark \) , bright full moon might abandon colour , though buy cheap launch system , design reusable moon lunar orbit unmanned spraying craft , build 50 said craft , establish lunar base extract tio2 \( say colour 'd better compound , suppose \) sort propellant , bob 's uncle 'll , say , 20 billion dollars \( plus changes identity loved ones \) delivery date 2010 get fast food chain bidding drink vendors \? else might interested \? would buy , given 's lot expensive , much impressive , putting large set several km inflatable billboards leo \( geo , visible 24 hours key growth market \) 'll \( changes identity \) nick haines nickh cmu edu
chico br \( francisco da \) subject new planet kuiper object found \? x added forwarded space digest organization via international space university original sender isu vacation venari cs cmu edu distribution sci lines 28 tv journal brasil announced object , beyond pluto 's orbit , found observatory hawaii named object karla program said object n't gaseous giant planet , composed rocks someone confirm information \? could object new planet kuiper object \? thanks advance francisco stars , , francisco da , da ' brasil ' de de cps ' internet chico br ' br ' ' fone fax 55 32 ' sp brasil like dust
18084tm msu edu \( tom \) subject golden space ages x added forwarded space digest organization via international space university original sender isu vacation venari cs cmu edu distribution sci lines 17 pat sez oddly , enough , smithsonian calls lindbergh years golden age flight would call granite years , reflecting primitive nature romantic , , daring young men flying machines reality , sucked death highly likely occurence , environment blew yeah , windscreen cut ended completely course , environment space continues suck \) tommy mac tom mcwilliams 517 355 2178 wk radius vision increases , 18084tm ibm cl msu edu 336 9591 hm circumference mystery grows
esa bitnet vm gmd de subject message space digest x added forwarded space digest organization via international space university original sender isu vacation venari cs cmu edu distribution sci lines 62 press release 19 93 paris , 22 april 1993 users esa 's olympus satellite report outcome experiments today europe 's space telecommunications sector would , olympus provided testbed technologies services 1990s general conclusions 135 speakers 300 participants conference olympus held 20 22 april 1993 conference organised european space agency \( esa \) spanish centre development industrial technology \( \) olympus particularly useful bringing satellite telecommunications thousands new users , thanks satellite terminals small antennas \( \) olympus experiments tested data transmission , , business television , distance teaching rural telephony , give examples opening door new telecommunications services could crowded lower frequency bands olympus first satellite europe offer capacity 20 30 ghz band establishing two way data relay links olympus received first time europe , several months , high volume data low earth orbiting spacecraft distributed various centres europe olympus launched 12 july 1989 world 's largest telecommunications satellite satellite yet combining four different payloads wide variety frequency bands olympus users range individual experimenters world 's largest businesses access satellite given order test new telecommunications techniques services past four years 200 companies organisations made use opportunity , well 100 members distance learning organisation new technologies services tested olympus users enter commercial market , make use operational satellites olympus continue 1993 1994 , spacecraft run fuel approaches end design life
pyron skndiv dseg ti com \( dillon pyron \) subject give 1 billion first year long moon residents \? lines 42 nntp posting host skndiv dseg ti com reply pyron skndiv dseg ti com organization ti dseg vax support article sal sun121 usc edu , schaefer sal sun121 usc edu \( peter schaefer \) writes article 1993apr19 1 aurora alaska edu , nsmca aurora alaska edu writes article 6zv82b2w165w theporch raider net , gene theporch raider net \( gene wright \) writes continuin talk end space age complaints government large cost , try something read might work announce reward 1 billion would go first corporation successfully keeps least 1 person alive moon year 'd see inexpensive popular technologies begin developed 'd different kind space race ! gene theporch raider net \( gene wright \) theporch raider net 615 297 7951 macinteresteds nashville true , 'd go friends could pool resources maybe make prize kind liek solar car race australia anybody game contest ! michael adams , nsmca acad3 alaska edu i'm high , jacked oh gee , billion dollars ! 'd enough cover cost feasability study ! happy , happy , joy ! joy ! feasability study \? \? wimp ! ! studying , others would damn many engineers way little engineering sits arse sits fortune sir richard francis burton dillon pyron opinions expressed ti dseg lewisville vax support sender unless otherwise stated \( 214 \) 462 3556 \( i'm \) \( 214 \) 492 4656 \( i'm home \) texans vote robin hood need pyron skndiv dseg ti com solutions , gestures padi dm 54909
pyron skndiv dseg ti com \( dillon pyron \) subject shuttle oxygen \( budget astronaut \) lines 24 nntp posting host skndiv dseg ti com reply pyron skndiv dseg ti com organization ti dseg vax support article access digex net , prb access digex com \( pat \) writes thought emergency conditions , sts put good size airport could take c 5 747 , take orbiter need vor tac n't know need ils designed sts mind \( really mean little \) much early pr material scenes shuttle landing two three others pulled gates guess trying stress advanced airport dallas types imagine fit grapevine irving would shuttle landing \( rest , currently power struggles airport surrounding cities \) dillon pyron opinions expressed ti dseg lewisville vax support sender unless otherwise stated \( 214 \) 462 3556 \( i'm \) \( 214 \) 492 4656 \( i'm home \) texans vote robin hood need pyron skndiv dseg ti com solutions , gestures padi dm 54909
hancock lambda msfc nasa gov \( thomas hancock \) subject proton centaur \? organization nasa msfc lines 40 dennisn ecs comm mot com \( dennis newkirk \) writes centaur controlled technology state dept allow used outside us sorry article 1993apr20 211638 168730 zeus calpoly edu jgreen trumpet calpoly edu \( james thomas green \) writes anyone looked possiblity proton centaur combo \? would benefits problems combo \( obvious instability \) \? n't seen speculation , salyut kb \( design bureau \) planning new lh lox second stage proton would boost payload leo 21000 kg \( geostationary goes 2600 kg \( gals launcher version \) 6000 kg scheme competing energia last year n't heard , except recently read central specialized kb working successor soyuz booster must energia early results energia , guess , nothing clear russia i'm sure salyut kb gets funds someone continue development centaur 3 meters dia proton 4 's good fit existing upper stage , block sets inside 4 meters dia n't know launch loads , etc since centaur survives titan launches probably worse proton \( titan srb 's probably shake things pretty good \) seems feasible except , centaur fragile thing may require integration pad available assembled transported anyone know much stress way payload centaur could support proton horizontally taken rail road track erected pad \? would also need lox lh facilities added proton pads \( unless new proton second stage actually built \) , course centaur support systems facilities , doubt imported us great cost systems may us law political problems solve addition cis mention dennis newkirk \( dennisn ecs comm mot com \) motorola , land mobile products sector schaumburg , il
pgf srl02 cacs usl edu \( phil g fraering \) subject planets still images orbit ether twist organization univ southwestern louisiana lines 8 ether see stuff must breathing posted phil fraering seems like every day find sorts stuff pgf srl02 cacs usl edu like ancient mayans televison repo man
aws iti org \( allen w sherzer \) subject commercial mining activities moon organization evil geniuses better tomorrow lines 27 article steinly topaz ucsc edu steinly topaz ucsc edu \( steinn sigurdsson \) writes seriously though ask british government whether efforts americas cost effective , answer think 'd get \? asked , 1815 , , 1915 1945 respectively \? \) mean \? saying thought effort profitable money efficiently spent \( providing max value per money spent \) \? think would answer yes questions exceptions would places like us french indian war end us revolution even colonies revolted given british engaged lucrative trading former colonies five years american revolution england still largest us trading partner allen lady astor sir , husband would poison coffee ! w churchill madam , wife , would drink 55 days first flight dcx
kwp wag caltech edu \( kevin w plaxco \) subject boom ! whoosh organization california institute technology , pasadena , ca lines 22 nntp posting host wag caltech edu article scicom alphacdc com wats scicom alphacdc com \( bruce watson \) writes two echo balloons inflated substance expanded vacuum called gas inflated substance longer needed since nothing cause balloon collapse inflatable structure could suffer multiple holes disastrous balloons sufficiently low orbit experienced air resistance finally , \( internal needed maintain spherical shape resistance \) caused large remained easily visible time reentry , though longer useful passive transponder billboard pop like dime store balloon
mccall mksol dseg ti com \( fred j mccall 575 3539 \) subject give 1 billion first year long moon residents \? organization texas instruments inc lines 22 1993apr20 iti org aws iti org \( allen w sherzer \) writes depends assume existance working ssto like dc , billion would enough put quarter million pounds stuff moon mass went send equipment make lox transfer vehicle , could send lot either way , lot needed prize n't big enough warrent developing ssto , enough vehicle exists allen , assume existence ssto need contest first place would think want get contest development ways things already exist , flush 1g get someone go moon year \? insisting perfect safety people n't balls live real world mary shafer , nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com n't speak others n't speak
djf cck coventry ac uk \( marvin batty \) subject moonbase race nntp posting host cc sysk organization starfleet , coventry , uk lines 22 article mojo eng umd edu sysmgr king eng umd edu writes article zoo toronto edu , henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) writes apollo done hard way , big hurry , limited technology base government contracts privately , rather government project , cuts costs factor several much would cost private venture , assuming could talk u government leasing couple pads florida \? use ground launch pad entirely posible launch altitude shuttle originally intended ! might seriously cheaper also , bio engineered co2 absorbing plants instead many lox bottles \? stick 'em lunar cave put door marvin batty djf uk ac cov cck shall find things , sort rafia like base , fathers put night 8 o'clock !
pearson tsd arlut utexas edu \( n pearson \) subject sunrise sunset times nntp posting host organization applied research labs , university texas austin lines 13 jpw cbis ece drexel edu \( joseph wetstein \) writes hello looking program \( algorithm \) used compute sunrise sunset times would mind posting responses get \? also interested , may others thanks , n pearson pearson titan tsd arlut utexas edu
wingert vnet ibm com \( bret wingert \) subject level 5 \? organization ibm , federal systems co software services ibm , federal systems co software services disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , ibm news software ureply 3 1 lines 91 tz zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes article 1993apr21 mksol dseg ti com mccall mksol dseg ti com \( fred j mccall 575 3539 \) writes \( given 've heard shuttle software rated level 5 level 5 \? many \? also keep mind achieved use sophisticated tools , rather force attack problem challenger standdown simply threw hundreds people whole process hand think little inaccurate , based feynman 's account software development process standdown fred basically correct sophisticated tools , lot effort care got one right challenger feynman cited software people exemplary compared engine people \( also noted software people starting feel management pressure cut corners , n't give much yet \) among things , software people worked hard get things right major pre flight simulations , considered failure simulations nearly bad flight failure result , number major simulation failures could counted one hand , number flight failures zero fred mentioned elsewhere , applies flight software software runs experiments typically mostly put together experimenters , gets nowhere near level tender loving care \( none experimenters could afford \) work one man 's work henry spencer u toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry news software ureply 3 1 x x wingert vnet ibm com \( bret wingert \) tz zoo toronto edu tz zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes article 1993apr21 mksol dseg ti com mccall mksol dseg ti com \( fred j mccall 575 3539 \) writes \( given 've heard shuttle software rated level 5 level 5 \? many \? also keep mind achieved use sophisticated tools , rather force attack problem challenger standdown simply threw hundreds people whole process hand think little inaccurate , based feynman 's account software development process standdown fred basically correct sophisticated tools , lot effort care got one right challenger feynman cited software people exemplary compared engine people \( also noted software people starting feel management pressure cut corners , n't give much yet \) fred mentioned elsewhere , applies flight software software runs experiments typically mostly put together experimenters , gets nowhere near level tender loving care couple points thread 1 using processes since way challenger challenger self uncover flaws 2 mr spencer says large true process dependent sophisticated tools \( case tools \? \) however , tools cannot fix bad process also , tool support hal \( shuttle language \) somewhat limited 3 onboard flight software project rated level 5 nasa team group generates 20 40 verified code per year nasa 4 feel free call organization interested info software development process bret wingert \( 713 \) 282 fax \( 713 \) 282 bret wingert \( 713 \) 282 fax \( 713 \) 282
sysmgr king eng umd edu \( doug mohney \) subject moonbase race organization computer aided design lab , u maryland college park lines 22 reply sysmgr king eng umd edu nntp posting host queen eng umd edu article 1993apr21 iti org , aws iti org \( allen w sherzer \) writes article mojo eng umd edu sysmgr king eng umd edu writes much would cost private venture , assuming could talk u government leasing couple pads florida \? would want \? goal cheaper \( remember , n't government \) instead leasing expensive launch pad , use ssto launch much cheaper facility allen , sometimes think 're ok sometimes tend leap making statement without thinking wanna guess today \? 'd need launch hlvs send large amounts stuff know private titan pad \? software engineering \? 's like military intelligence , n't \? sysmgr cadlab eng umd edu
shafer rigel dfrf nasa gov \( mary shafer \) subject crazy \? imaginitive \? reply nsmca aurora alaska edu 's message thu , 22 apr 1993 04 54 03 gmt organization nasa dryden , edwards , cal lines 25 thu , 22 apr 1993 04 54 03 gmt , nsmca aurora alaska edu said nsmca ideas bit odd , wall , nsmca wilbur orville wright , quite others common misconception nothing wall wright brothers number experimenters \( octave , , etc \) , flew models , wind tunnel short , quite mainstream regarded odd eccentric community suggest read bishop 's boys biography harry gates \? combs \? \( never remember guy owned \) print easily obtainable bishop 's boys trade paperback , even even better would multi volume set writings , print , rare , hideously expensive mary shafer dod 0362 kotfr nasa dryden flight research facility , edwards , ca shafer rigel dfrf nasa gov course n't speak nasa mig six better mig unknown us fighter pilot
jdnicoll prism ccs uwo ca \( james davis nicoll \) subject vandalizing sky organization university western ontario , london nntp posting host prism uwo ca lines 15 article 1 cs cmu edu nickh cs cmu edu \( nick haines \) writes would buy , given 's lot expensive , much impressive , putting large set several km inflatable billboards leo \( geo , visible 24 hours key growth market \) 'll \( changes identity \) 've heard things , like well known utility company wanting buy boiler cleaning system uses many operators old system , rumour costs three million per unit automation although scale saying james nicoll
mccall mksol dseg ti com \( fred j mccall 575 3539 \) subject many read sci space \? organization texas instruments inc lines 16 1993apr15 mksol dseg ti com pyron skndiv dseg ti com \( dillon pyron \) writes actually two us henry , fred , tommy mary oh yeah , n't real name , i'm bald headed space baby yes , everyone else , may wonder , n't \? well , would obvious , would n't \? oh yeah , n't real name , either i'm actually elvis maybe lemur sometimes difficulty telling insisting perfect safety people n't balls live real world mary shafer , nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com n't speak others n't speak
tffreeba indyvax iupui edu subject planets still images orbit ether twist lines 3 must shipping good eau clair acid california tom freebairn
sysmgr king eng umd edu \( doug mohney \) subject boom ! whoosh organization computer aided design lab , u maryland college park lines 24 reply sysmgr king eng umd edu nntp posting host queen eng umd edu article zoo toronto edu , henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) writes article gap caltech edu palmer cco caltech edu \( david palmer \) writes orbiting billboard would like point much easier place object orbital altitude place orbital velocity target 300 km surface earth , need delta v 2 5 km unfortunately , launch us \( us citizen \) , need launch permit office commercial space transportation , think may difficult get permit weapon \) well henry , often reminded canada part united states \( yet \) could quite commercial sat , er sky cleaning service going years toronto clear skies 48 hours , money back discount rates available astro researchers software engineering \? 's like military intelligence , n't \? sysmgr cadlab eng umd edu
mancus sweetpea jsc nasa gov \( keith mancus \) subject lindbergh moon \( give 1g \) organization mdssc lines 60 jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu \( josh hopkins \) writes mancus sweetpea jsc nasa gov \( keith mancus \) writes cook varmit mdc com \( layne cook \) writes 25k orteig prize helped lindbergh sell spirit saint louis venture financial backers strongly suspect saint louis backers foresight realize much stake 25 , 000 could work moon \? far sighted financial backers today \? commercial uses transportation system already settled civilized areas obvious spaceflight position correct analogy aviation '30 's , long voyages age discovery lindbergh 's flight took place , thirties course sorry misunderstanding referring fact far aeronautical development took place '30 's much 's , super abundance ox 5 engines held industry 1926 , many obsolete wwi aircraft retired power weight ratio reliability point long distance flights became practical 's important note atlantic flown three times 1927 lindbergh , levine , 's america 's time railroad , railroad n't require gov't fund long something known potential profit destination practice , gov't funded , private could give examples privately funded ones \? top head 'll dig reference books however , say common arrangement prince henry navigator 's portugal prince put part money merchants put rest profits voyage would shared way wise investor would spend large amount money risky investment idea possible payoff person puts x billion moon base much likely want see done expect make money deal problem amount prize money required inspire moon base much larger handful individuals corporations even consider putting prizes \( human powered aircraft \) , orteig 's prize , lord 's prize crossing atlantic \( 1919 brown \) much smaller technologies required within reach individual inventors , prize amounts well within reach large number wealthy individuals think gov't could afford set 1b prize purpose whatsoever note burt suggested nasp could built cheaply taking ad stating first company build plane could take fly profile would handed 3b , questions asked keith mancus mancus butch jsc nasa gov n5wvr mancus sweetpea jsc nasa gov black powder alcohol , states cities fall , back 's wall leslie fish
keithley apple com \( craig keithley \) subject moonbase race , nasa resources , \? organization apple computer , inc lines 44 article zoo toronto edu , henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) wrote major component realistic plan go moon cheaply \( brief visit , least \) low cost transport earth orbit costs launch one shuttle two titan ivs , develop new launch system considerably cheaper \( delta clipper might bit expensive , perhaps , less ambitious ways bringing costs quite bit \) ah , 's rub catch 22 boot purposes contest , 'll probably compete ca n't afford ride get although lower priced delivery systems might , without demand doubtful anyone develop new system course , low priced system existed , might demand wonder might way structuring contest encourage low cost payload delivery systems accounting methods would probably hardest work example , would allow rockwell engines \? forth plan sustained lunar exploration using existing launch systems wasting money big way depends soon new launch system comes line words , perhaps great deal worthwhile technology \( life support , navigation , etc \) could developed prior low cost launch system would n't want use expensive stuff forever , 'd hate see folks waiting anything low cost mac , oops , mean launch system comes line guess 'd simplify say slippery concept goal manned lunar exploration next 5 years , perhaps money goal explore moon 500 million , put exploration decade craig craig keithley n't remember , n't recall , apple computer , inc got memory anything keithley apple com peter gabriel , third album \( 1980 \)
prb access digex com \( pat \) subject dc 1 way future organization express access online communications usa lines 12 nntp posting host access digex net article 1993apr22 julian uwo ca jdnicoll prism ccs uwo ca \( james davis nicoll \) writes hmmm seem recall attraction solid state record players radios 1960s n't better performance lower per unit cost vacuum tube systems n't think first , solid state offered better , id bet , lower costs would processes really scaled pat
dennisn ecs comm mot com \( dennis newkirk \) subject proton centaur \? organization motorola nntp posting host 145 1 146 43 lines 31 article oh access digex net prb access digex com \( pat \) writes question proton , could handled one ksc 's spare pads , without major malfunction , could handled kourou vandenberg \? seems like lot trouble go probably better invest newer launch systems n't think big cost advantage using russian systems last long \( maybe years \) lockheed would place ask , since would probably buy proton \( market proton world wide except russia \) know lot possibilities , n't heard propose us launches , assume looked found uses , yes long would take russians equip something cape york \? comparable suppose , since looks like nothing built , might well pick spot message launch cheap russia still cooperating later , story may different dennis newkirk \( dennisn ecs comm mot com \) motorola , land mobile products sector schaumburg , il
mccall mksol dseg ti com \( fred j mccall 575 3539 \) subject vandalizing sky article mksol 1993apr22 organization texas instruments inc lines 62 hermes hrz uni bielefeld de hoover mathematik uni bielefeld de \( uwe \) writes article c5t05k db6 research canon oz au enzo research canon oz au \( enzo liguori \) writes hideous vision future observers startled spring nasa launch vehicle arrived pad schwarzenegger painted huge block letters ok opinion long stuff returns earth think revolting hideous attempt vandalize night sky \? even april 1 anymore turns true , 's time get seriously active terrorism unbelievable ! people think , selling every bit promises make money \? well , guess i'm left wondering think yes , understand issues n't even particularly care idea one finds sort overreaction little questionable \? must find things like moon really obnoxious pollution questions mouth ask 1 \) long thing supposed stay \? sounds like would huge drag area , lot mass , fairly low orbit 2 \) orbital parameters talking \? real impact talking , really \? many optical astronomers really going impacted \? 3 \) important adding extra days \( \) optical astronomers getting data sensors supposed return along data large \( potential inflatable space station \) \? choice would seem one , since advertising used help fund thing 4 \) answer 3 \) astronomers , feel free come way fund \( mind \) important research data would gained without spending money words , put shut guess really deserve wiped uv radiation , folks stupidity wins guess 's true , pure numbers probably i'm sure agree another depressed planetary citizen , hoover yeah , insisting perfect safety people n't balls live real world mary shafer , nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com n't speak others n't speak
mccall mksol dseg ti com \( fred j mccall 575 3539 \) subject planets still images orbit ether twist article mksol 1993apr22 organization texas instruments inc lines 22 1993apr22 zeus calpoly edu dmcaloon tuba calpoly edu \( david mcaloon \) writes ether implodes 2 earth core , gravity ! ! ! lack capitalized words , 'd swear mcelwaine changed name moved cal poly also find choice newsgroups perhaps someone tell guy 'sci n't stand \? 's truly frightening posts like originating ostensibly centers higher learning country small wonder rest world thinks 're nuts problems case n't gotten yet , david , n't think quite appropriate posting groups insisting perfect safety people n't balls live real world mary shafer , nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com n't speak others n't speak
mark z1 fidonet org subject comet temporary orbit around jupiter \? x sender newtout 0 08 feb 23 1993 lines 15 message apr 19 04 55 , jgarland kean ucs mun ca writes article 1993apr19 sq sq com , msb sq sq com \( mark brader \) writes mb mb 1970 figure seems unlikely actually anything jg sorry , perijoves i'm used talking language could n't say \? 2 07
dante shakala com \( charlie prael \) subject moonbase race organization shakala bbs \( clanzen radio network \) sunnyvale , ca 1 408 734 2289 lines 20 sysmgr king eng umd edu \( doug mohney \) writes allen , sometimes think 're ok sometimes tend leap making statement without thinking wanna guess today \? 'd need launch hlvs send large amounts stuff know private titan pad \? doug actually , memory serves , atlas outgrowth old titan icbm , 's probably quite old pads , albeit need serious still , able buy turf pad \( bunkers , including prep facility \) midwest prices strikes pretty damned cheap charlie prael dante shakala com shakala bbs \( clanzen radio network \) sunnyvale , ca 1 408 734 2289
tffreeba indyvax iupui edu subject death taxes \( give 1 billion article indyvax 1993apr22 162501 747 lines 10 first posting subject threw idea fund contest without delving deep budget mentioned granting mineral rights winner \( actual wording , mining rights \) somebody pointed , quite correctly , rights anybody 's grant \( although imagine would fait accompli situation winner \) \? give winning group \( ca n't see one company corp \) 10 , 20 , 50 year moratorium taxes tom freebairn
dan visix com \( daniel \) subject planets still images orbit ether twist reply dan visix com \( daniel \) organization visix software , reston , virginia lines 11 dmcaloon tuba calpoly edu \( david mcaloon \) writes lots stuff deleted wow guy smoking get \? dan daniel k electronically published distributed dan visix com magazine science fiction fantasy 703 758 information , send mail andrew cmu edu , 703 758 \( fax \) back issues , ftp export acs cmu edu , id anonymous
baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov \( ron baalke \) subject galileo update 04 22 93 organization jet propulsion laboratory lines 84 distribution world nntp posting host kelvin jpl nasa gov keywords galileo , jpl news software vax vms vnews 1 41 forwarded neal , galileo mission director galileo mission director status report post launch april 16 22 , 1993 spacecraft 1 april 19 , cruise science memory readouts \( \) performed extreme ultraviolet spectrometer \( euv \) , dust detector \( dds \) , magnetometer \( mag \) instruments preliminary analysis indicates data received properly 2 april 19 , command detector unit signal noise ratio \( \) test radio frequency subsystem automatic gain control \( \) test performed using lga 1 \( low gain antenna 1 \) dss 63 \( madrid 70 meter antenna \) dss 61 \( madrid 34 meter antenna \) , respectively data analysis process tests periodically performed provide detailed information relative telecom command hardware integrity 3 april 19 , op command sent reset command loss timer 264 hours , planned value mission phase 4 april 21 , first two suppressed carrier dsn \( deep space network \) advanced receiver characterization tests performed dss 14 \( goldstone 70 meter antenna \) spacecraft modulation index varied 43 degrees 90 degrees range ground receiver bandwidth settings 5 ac bus imbalance measurement exhibited significant change \( greater 25 dn \) throughout period dc bus imbalance measurement ac measurement reads 20 dn \( 4 5 volts \) dc measurement ranged 43 dn \( 4 6 volts \) 138 dn \( 16 2 volts \) currently reads 138 dn \( 16 2 volts \) measurements consistent model developed ac dc special anomaly team 6 spacecraft status april 22 , 1993 , follows \) system power margin 68 watts b \) spin configuration dual spin c \) spin rate sensor 3 star scanner \) spacecraft attitude approximately 21 degrees sun \( lagging \) 5 degrees earth \( leading \) e \) downlink telemetry rate antenna 40bps \( coded \) lga 1 f \) general thermal control temperatures within acceptable range g \) rpm tank pressures within acceptable range h \) orbiter science instruments powered pws , euv , , , mag , hic , dds \) probe powered , temperatures within acceptable range j \) cmd loss timer setting 264 hours time initiation 184 hours trajectory noon thursday , april 22 , 1993 , galileo spacecraft trajectory status follows distance earth 169 , 747 , 800 km \( 1 14 au \) distance sun 286 , 967 , 900 km \( 1 92 au \) heliocentric speed 91 , 200 km per hour distance jupiter 532 , 735 , 900 km round trip light time 18 minutes , 58 seconds special topic 1 april 22 , 1993 , total real time commands transmitted galileo since launch , initiated sequence design process 5108 initiated real time command process past week , one real time command transmitted one initiated sequence design process none initiated real time command process command activity command reset command loss timer ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab \) 525 3684 telos aweto new zealand pasadena , ca 91109 part caterpillar part vegetable
jtk s1 gov \( \) subject inflatable mile long space billboards \( vandalizing sky \) organization llnl lines 96 distribution world nntp posting host s1 gov yamauchi ces cwru edu \( brian yamauchi \) writes enzo research canon oz au \( enzo liguori \) writes what's new \( opinion \) , friday , 16 april 1993 washington , dc , space marketing working university colorado livermore engineers plan place mile long inflatable billboard low earth orbit sounds like something lowell wood would think anyone know 's involved \? idea suggested around discussions possible near term commercial space activities one folks involved discussions , spacecraft engineer named preston carter , passed suggestion types , mike lawson apparently going ahead preston llnl , working space marketing sensors might carried nasa would provide contractual launch services however , since nasa bases charge seriously flawed cost estimates \( wn 26 mar 93 \) taxpayers would bear expense actually , sounds unlikely n't know launch vehicle would , would expect go commercial launcher certainly shuttle fraction cost paid nasa , e g , launch support would probably cover nasa 's incremental costs pretty well may look like environmental vandalism , mike lawson , ceo space marketing , told us yesterday real purpose project help environment ! platform carry ozone monitors explained advertising help defray costs may purpose university colorado people guess purpose livermore people learn build large , inflatable space structures , noted , llnl involved lightweight sensor design , per clementine related programs i'm sure folks around would like see demonstration modern inflatable structure , , u echo satellites long ago , advertising structure would much closer inflatable space station echo \( parade balloon , matter \) think revolting hideous attempt vandalize night sky \? even april 1 anymore happen personally dislike idea , mostly 've got background astronomy , 's hardly vandalism would short lived intrusion night sky , permanent damage actually hurting small subset astronomers hand , would certainly draw attention space true , think 's great idea learning build structures space essential step towards space development , unfortunately , likely contribute much project also monitors ozone depletion demonstrates creative use \( partial \) private sector funding process much better nasa really supporting junk \? far know , 's purely commercial venture anyone details wn news blip \? serious project \? wild idea stage real funding \? gather seriously discussed possible advertisers commercial projects , however , generally n't get funding get customers whether customers remains seen protesting groups organized states \? yet though , project goes , suppose return jeremy inevitable 's busy watching mutant bacteria notice anything sky \) brian yamauchi case western reserve university yamauchi alpha ces cwru edu department computer engineering science jtk s1 gov lawrence livermore national laboratory personal views represent official statements positions llnl , university california , u doe
tholen galileo ifa hawaii edu \( dave tholen \) subject comet temporary orbit around jupiter \? organization institute astronomy , hawaii lines 17 phil g fraering writes mark brader writes thanks one final question name gehrels n't known thread came , may issue scientific american article inconstant cosmos , photo neil gehrels , project scientist nasa 's compton gamma ray observatory person \? estimate 99 probability gehrels referred thomas gehrels spacewatch project , kitt peak observatory may change 100 certainty clarify , spacewatch university arizona project using telescope steward observatory located kitt peak associated kitt peak national observatory , sharing mountain
howard astro wisc edu \( greg howard \) subject planets still images orbit ether twist organization university wisconsin astronomy department lines 10 nntp posting host astro wisc edu actually , ether stuff sounded fair bit like bizzare , qualitative corruption general relativity nothing old fashioned , ether , though maybe somebody could loan gr text low level n't get much , tho whew greg
jeff cook ftcollinsco ncr com \( jeff cook \) subject vandalizing sky organization none lines 51 reply enzo research canon oz au 's message 20 apr 93 22 36 55 gmt article c5t05k db6 research canon oz au enzo research canon oz au \( enzo liguori \) writes , space marketing working university colorado livermore engineers plan place mile long inflatable billboard low earth orbit nasa would provide contractual launch services however , since nasa bases charge seriously flawed cost estimates \( wn 26 mar 93 \) taxpayers would bear expense may look like environmental vandalism , mike lawson , ceo space marketing , told us yesterday real purpose project help environment ! platform carry ozone monitors explained advertising help defray costs could possibly environmental vandalism environment vandalize \? since advertising help defray costs , 's certainly surprise taxpayers would bear expense sounds like good idea , since taxpayers would bear expense n't advertising think revolting hideous attempt vandalize night sky \? great idea , done long ago light pollution observations \? \( read somewhere else might even visible day , leave alone night \) ca n't believe mile long billboard would significant effect overall sky brightness venus visible day , nobody complains besides , 's leo , would visible twilight sky already bright , even would miniscule impact , would short time goes across sky protesting groups organized states \? doubt people always looking something protest , would surprise really , really depressed well , look , er , bright side imagine looks faces people primitive tribes middle nowhere look see budweiser flying across sky jeff cook jeff cook ftcollinsco ncr com
donald wichitaks ncr com \( mark johnson \) subject big amateur rockets organization ncr corporation wichita , ks lines 86 pbd runyon cim cdc com \( paul dokas \) writes reading popular science morning surprised ad back know lot ads back ps fringe science legal , one really grabbed attention company name personal , inc something like company probably public missiles , inc michigan anyhow , ad stated 'd sell rockets 20' length engines sizes f also said rockets reach 50 , 000 feet yup , aside obvious dangers amateur rocketeer using one beasts , n't illegal \? ca n't imagine faa allowing people shoot rockets flight levels passenger planes even mention problem locating rocket comes nope , 's illegal , however , closely regulated order purchase use big rocket motors required , necessary one following \) employee government agency b \) employee student university research involving rockets c \) member representative educational organization involved research uses rockets two organizations tripoli rocketry association national association rocketry members either organization must demonstrate construction flight allowed purchase large motors faa issue waiver regulations , upon request , organization persuade taken adequate precautions avoid conflicts aircraft usual operation specified ceiling allowed depending location , ceiling may 5000 feet operator rocket responsible avoiding aircraft within operating radius around launch site flight clouds beyond visual range haze expressly prohibited faa provide informing users airspace unmanned rocket operations taking place specified place time launches held \( dozens every year \) held areas air traffic relatively light , western deserts \( black rock desert north reno particularly popular since 25 x 150 miles nothing hit ground \) two rocketry associations test approve motors use , insure safety depending motor size , launcher 50 500 feet way , rockets 1 lb powered f motor exempt federal regulations unmanned rockets anyway see far 101 , c , details recovery although higher altitude rockets reach 50 , 000 feet , get 2 , 000 5 , 000 feet typical rocket 2 6 inches diameter , carries 3 6 foot parachute , multiple parachutes , depending payload many rockets also carry either small transmitter audio sounder particularly launches eastern us , camera , telemetry transmitter , video payloads becoming quite common , i'm going even think buying one i'm crazy \? 's lot fun check traffic rec models rockets information model \( 3 lb \) high power \( everything bigger \) rocket dangerous activities , key practice safety 've flying consumer rockets ranging 4 5 lbs takeoff weight 27 years , still intact paul mine 'll 50 , 000 feet carries 50 pounds dynamite dokas 's another thing explosive kind allowed rockets none ! please forgive shouting , 's one biggest misconceptions people hobby remember , die someday true related rocket hobby , unless get hit crossing road rocket hand mark johnson usnail ncr peripheral products division e mail mark johnson wichitaks ncr com n rock rd voice \( 316 \) 636 v 654 wichita , ks non business email compuserve com
tholen galileo ifa hawaii edu \( dave tholen \) subject new planet kuiper object found \? organization university hawaii distribution sci lines 18 francisco da writes tv journal brasil announced object , beyond pluto 's orbit , found observatory hawaii named object karla name working name quite unofficial formal designation 1993 fw program said object n't gaseous giant planet , composed rocks someone confirm information \? could object new planet kuiper object \? 's likely kuiper belt object , estimated diameter 290 km orbit n't determined well enough yet say much
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject moonbase race organization u toronto zoology lines 13 article mojo eng umd edu sysmgr king eng umd edu writes 'd need launch hlvs send large amounts stuff know private titan pad \? 'd need launch hlvs send large amounts stuff assume new launcher development assume new launcher development , lower costs specific objective , probably n't want build something hlv sized anyway nobody interested launching things cheaply buy titans n't take many titan pay laser launcher large gas gun development program big dumb booster , would far better cost effectiveness
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject moonbase race , nasa resources , \? organization u toronto zoology lines 36 article keithley kip 37 apple com keithley apple com \( craig keithley \) writes ah , 's rub catch 22 boot purposes contest , 'll probably compete ca n't afford ride get although lower priced delivery systems might , without demand doubtful anyone develop new system 're assuming low cost delivery system separate project \? spending hundreds millions dollars hopes winning billion dollar prize , cheaper develop launch system , charging entire development cost contest entry , try existing launchers demand necessary plan sustained lunar exploration using existing launch systems wasting money big way depends soon new launch system comes line words , perhaps great deal worthwhile technology \( life support , navigation , etc \) could developed prior low cost launch system would n't want use expensive stuff forever , 'd hate see folks waiting anything low cost mac , oops , mean launch system comes line 're assuming 's going take decade build new launch system \? saturn v took less six years , depending exactly date start pegasus took three project start first flight sdio orbital development , target date orbital dc flight 1996 really want speed , consider first prototypes thor missile \( still service core delta launcher \) shipped usaf less 18 months development go ahead one pernicious myths whole business belief ca n't build launcher without taking ten years spending billions dollars n't true never
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject moonbase race organization u toronto zoology lines 23 article shakala com dante shakala com \( charlie prael \) writes doug actually , memory serves , atlas outgrowth old titan icbm nope , 're confusing separate programs atlas first generation us icbm titan second generation one titan ii , titan launchers based , third generation heavy icbm essentially nothing common three programs \( yes , three programs despite similarity names , titan titan ii completely different missiles n't even use fuels , never mind launch facilities \) , 's probably quite old pads , albeit need serious still , able buy turf pad \( bunkers , including prep facility \) midwest prices strikes pretty damned cheap sorry , titan \( \) ca n't handle titan launchers large srbs , \( b \) ca n't handle sort launcher without massive violations normal range safety rules \( nobody cares things event nuclear war , peacetime matter \) , \( c \) scrapped years ago
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject sunrise sunset times organization u toronto zoology lines 14 article news umbc edu rouben math umbc edu \( rouben rostamian \) writes hello looking program \( algorithm \) used compute sunrise sunset times computation long time ago computes length daylight able convert information sunrise sunset times sorry , changes sunrise sunset times quite synchronized example , neither earliest sunrise latest sunset comes longest day year derive day length sunrise sunset times , vice versa
gnb leo bby com au \( gregory n bond \) subject old spacecraft navigation beacons ! reply nsmca aurora alaska edu 's message 21 apr 93 08 15 55 gmt nntp posting host leo gw organization burdett , buckeridge young , melbourne , australia lines 17 article 1993apr21 1 aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes idea old space crafts navigation beacons \? \? use nav point need know exactly , means either nail something n't move watch time neither possible spacecraft know exactly far away may may possible hardware board apart , absolutely need navigation beacons gregory bond gnb bby com au burdett buckeridge young ltd melbourne australia knox 's 386 slick fox sox , knox 's box knox 's box quick plays lots lsl 's sick ! \( apologies john iron bar mackin \)
stein2 u washington edu \( william lewis \) subject abyss breathing fluids organization university washington lines 33 nntp posting host stein2 u washington edu loss fs7 ece cmu edu \( doug loss \) writes besides mechanical problems moving dense medium lungs \( diaphragm fatigue , etc \) , likely problem mixture \? mean , since lungs never expel air , inhaled air mix pretty quickly residual air lungs provide useful partial pressure oxygen , right \? would mixing substantially faster slower pressures 're talking \? interesting article scientific american time ago breathing liquid \( months abyss came \) far remember , mentioned three things difficult substitute breathing fluid low viscosity 's difficult force fluid lungs , ca n't extract enough oxygen power breathing effort \( let alone anything else \) diffusion rate obviously , air lungs expelled breathe part n't expelled part 's nearest walls \( \? \) trip blood vessels new air done diffusion gas fluid apparently oxygen tends diffuse readily co2 , even get enough oxygen , might able get enough co2 oxygen co2 capacity able dissolve enough gas per unit volume oh , course , new breathing fluid must irritate lungs interfere healing anything like wim lewis , u washington edu
nicho vnet ibm com \( greg stewart nicholls \) subject keeping spacecraft funding cuts reply nicho vnet ibm com disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , ibm news software ureply 3 1 x x nicho vnet ibm com murdoch acc virginia edu lines 15 murdoch acc virginia edu greg hennessy writes article access digex net prb access digex com \( pat \) writes better question transfer birds separate agency continous funding support kind ongoing science missions since n't money keep going , changing seperate agency help anything \? transferring control non profit organisation able accept donations keep craft operational greg nicholls vidi nicho vnet ibm com vici nicho olympus demon co uk veni
nsmca aurora alaska edu subject death taxes \( give 1 billion article aurora 1993apr23 1 organization university alaska fairbanks lines 55 nntp posting host acad3 alaska edu article 1993apr22 162501 747 indyvax iupui edu , tffreeba indyvax iupui edu writes first posting subject threw idea fund contest without delving deep budget mentioned granting mineral rights winner \( actual wording , mining rights \) somebody pointed , quite correctly , rights anybody 's grant \( although imagine would fait accompli situation winner \) \? give winning group \( ca n't see one company corp \) 10 , 20 , 50 year moratorium taxes tom freebairn says mineral rights given \? says \? un us government \? major question decide mine moon mars , stop \? un ca n't legal tom truly \? go moon declare nation , stop maybe acknowledge \? ca n't small company corp organization go explore great beyond space \? right earth say legal maybe years ahead liek old catholic church stating , along came reformation made null void happen find nation acknowledged , offer services space miner go mine asteroids mars moon ever long sponsor get trouble basically find country wants go space , ca n't reason another , give home saudia arabia whatever nations world part un , got offer services know sound crazy , also means mine moon \( whatever \) un done right made busy something else , care worried us , thing limited short sighted people earth many things worry someone mining moon mars ever basically saying drive go little bit farther , jus ta little bit , tell crown piss ancestors thought way many today think , id born central europe north black sea read good book , tower gods interesting michael adams , nsmca acad3 alaska edu i'm high , jacked
nsmca aurora alaska edu subject eco freaks forcing space mining article aurora 1993apr23 1 organization university alaska fairbanks lines 28 nntp posting host acad3 alaska edu article access digex net , prb access digex com \( pat \) writes besides line horse puckey mining companies claimed told pay restoring land strip mining still mine coal midwest , n't look like moon done pat aint talking large even mining companies talking small miners , people employees \( \) people go every year set thier box , mining semi old fashion way \( okay use modern methods point \) talking guy year , sets tent beach \( beach washed away last year \) sets box goes mining know large corps , alaska gold company , might complain opinions learn local bs table original thing idea way get space mining allow eco freaks thier way done mineral development ca n't many places ca n't go bathroom woods without form regulation covering michael adams , nsmca acad3 alaska edu i'm high , jacked
nsmca aurora alaska edu subject billboard station space dock \? lines 24 nntp posting host acad3 alaska edu organization university alaska fairbanks seems mile long billboard space object station ever problems \( little bit different normal space ideas , shuttles \) also dag combine discussion topic \? liek idea billboard space problem service \? fly shuttle dc 1 near fly \? \? \? special docking section shuttle dc 1 docking \? also billboard springs leak \? self sealing \? \? thinking \( okay rambling \) also must inflated billboard , covered inside harder substance \( agent \) hard billboard would giant docking structure space dock station \? \? missing something \( probably ! \? \) michael adams , nsmca acad3 alaska edu i'm high , jacked
isaackuo skippy berkeley edu \( isaac kuo \) subject abyss breathing fluids organization u c berkeley math department lines 19 nntp posting host skippy berkeley edu breathable liquids possible \? remember seeing old nova nature things idea touched upon \( might tv show \) nothing else , know liquids possible showed large glass full liquid , put white mouse \( rat \? \) since liquid dense , mouse would float , held clutching tail thing struggled quite bit , certainly held long enough breathing liquid never slow attempts swim top , may humane demonstrations , certainly shows breathable liquids made isaac kuo \( isaackuo math berkeley edu \) twinkle , twinkle , little sig , \( \( \) \) keep less 5 lines big
mt90dac brunel ac uk \( del cotter \) subject crazy \? imaginitive \? organization brunel university , west london , uk lines 26 1993apr21 1 aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes ideas bit odd , wall , wilbur orville wright , quite others sorry big degrees , think \( might wrong , error human \) something many ways important , imagination , dreams without dreams knowledge worthless oh , us big degrees n't got imagination , huh \? alleged dichotomy imagination knowledge one pernicious new age michael , thanks generous offer , quite enough dreams , thank , hand , letting dreams go waste failing get maths thermodynamics chemistry \( choices \) would give imagination wings show n't flame , leave quote invasion body become one us 's bad , know ' , ' ' ' , ' , ' ' , ' ' ' , ' , ' ' , , ' , ' del cotter mt90dac brunel ac uk ' , , ' , ' ' , ' ' , '
clarke acme ucf edu \( thomas clarke \) subject vandalizing sky organization university central florida lines 19 posted sci astro , n't make thought would like wonderful commentary \) \? guys never seen goodyear polluting daytime skies \? actually sign would visible near sunset sunrise , believe pollution night would minimal pays space travel , go n't like spatial billboards head pristine environment jupiter 's moons \) thomas clarke institute simulation training , university central fl research parkway , suite 300 , orlando , fl \( 407 \) 658 , fax \( 407 \) 658 , clarke acme ucf edu
flb flb optiplan fi \( f baube tm \) subject vandalizing sky x added forwarded space digest organization via international space university original sender isu vacation venari cs cmu edu distribution sci lines 12 phil g fraering pgf srl03 cacs usl edu finally n't bronze age , please try remember human activities practiced warrior caste , farming caste , priesthood right , profiting caste blessed god , may freely blare presence evening twilight fred baube \( tm \)
agc bmdhh286 bnr ca \( alan carter \) subject command loss timer \( galileo update 04 22 93 \) keywords galileo , jpl nntp posting host bmdhh286 organization bnr europe limited , maidenhead , england lines 17 article kelvin jpl nasa gov , baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov \( ron baalke \) writes 3 april 19 , op command sent reset command loss timer 264 hours , planned value mission phase activity regularly reported ron 's interesting posts could someone explain command loss timer \? thanks , alan 1 belle vue court 're unfriendly , home 32 belle vue terrace fortunate , really 'd away great difficult like work kerr avon , blake 's seven temporary agc bnr ca england permanent alan co uk
loss fs7 ece cmu edu \( doug loss \) subject death taxes \( give 1 billion organization electrical computer engineering , carnegie mellon lines 55 article 1993apr23 1 aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes article 1993apr22 162501 747 indyvax iupui edu , tffreeba indyvax iupui edu writes somebody pointed , quite correctly , rights anybody 's grant \( although imagine would fait accompli situation winner \) \? give winning group \( ca n't see one company corp \) 10 , 20 , 50 year moratorium taxes tom freebairn says mineral rights given \? says \? un us government \? tom 's right 's right ability stop anyone taking away never mind legal status major question decide mine moon mars , stop \? un ca n't legal tom truly \? nick 's right 's always easier obtain forgiveness permission many people remember britain 's king george iii expressly forbid american subjects cross mountains said subjects basically said , stop us could n't go moon declare nation , stop maybe acknowledge \? 's usa started course , 's also republic started \( ca 1800 1820 \) central america n't quite staying power usa i'm sure examples going far away ignoring authority , none jump mind right happen find nation acknowledged , offer services space miner go mine asteroids mars moon ever long sponsor get trouble whaling nations define whatever activities want carry scientific research coincidentally requires recovery minerals \( whatever \) , go basically find country wants go space , ca n't reason another , give home saudia arabia whatever sort arrangement libya \( think \) late '70 's commercial space launch project \( one earliest \) killed soviet propaganda nato cruise missiles africa , made libya arrangement doug loss
loss fs7 ece cmu edu \( doug loss \) subject death taxes \( give 1 billion organization electrical computer engineering , carnegie mellon lines 7 last post referred michael adams nick completely error nick adams film tv actor 's early '60 's \( remember johnny yuma , rebel \? \) part country , michael 's email address probably helped confuse things mind purely user error part sorry doug loss
bohr physics purdue edu \( van e \) subject sunrise sunset times organization purdue university physics department lines 29 article 1993apr22 titan tsd arlut utexas edu pearson tsd arlut utexas edu \( n pearson \) writes jpw cbis ece drexel edu \( joseph wetstein \) writes hello looking program \( algorithm \) used compute sunrise sunset times would mind posting responses get \? also interested , may others thanks , n pearson pearson titan tsd arlut utexas edu excellent software program called astro calc much latest address mmi corporation po box baltimore , md phone \( 301 \) 366 1222 van e maxwell physics purdue edu purdue university bitnet
xrcjd mudpuppy gsfc nasa gov \( charles j divine \) subject space station redesign chief health reasons organization nasa gsfc greenbelt maryland lines 12 writer kathy sawyer reported today 's washington post joseph shea , head space station redesign resigned health reasons shea hospitalized shortly selection february returned yesterday lead formal presentation independent white house panel shea 's presentation rambling almost shea 's deputy , former astronaut bryan o'connor , take effort goldin asserted redesign effort track chuck divine
bruce dunn mindlink bc ca \( bruce dunn \) subject clementine mission name organization mind link ! british columbia , canada lines 22 wales larrison ofa123 fidonet org writes old pioneer song 1850 's goes follows cavern , canyon , mine , miner , forty , daughter , clementine chorus oh darling , oh darling , oh darling clementine lost gone forever , oh darling clementine let us hope performance spacecraft follows sentiments first verse \( miner \) rather second \( lost gone forever \) bruce dunn vancouver , canada bruce dunn mindlink bc ca
higgins fnalf fnal gov \( bill higgins beam jockey \) subject dreams degrees \( crazy \? imaginitive \? \) organization fermi national accelerator laboratory lines 47 nntp posting host fnalf fnal gov article brunel ac uk , mt90dac brunel ac uk \( del cotter \) writes 1993apr21 1 aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes sorry big degrees , think \( might wrong , error human \) something many ways important , imagination , dreams without dreams knowledge worthless oh , us big degrees n't got imagination , huh \? alleged dichotomy imagination knowledge one pernicious new age michael , thanks generous offer , quite enough dreams , thank well said , hand , letting dreams go waste failing get maths thermodynamics chemistry \( choices \) would give imagination wings show n't flame , leave quote invasion body become one us 's bad , know okay , del , michael unfair , unfair back taking college courses , presume studying hard , postings reveal somewhat hip technical issues astronautics plus , following discourse big brains post sci space inevitable get splendid technical education reading likes \? 1 like others involved sci space , mr adams shows symptoms fledgling member , think 's soaking fast young guy dreams , led get technical education follow bad wound assembly line job stamping identical day day \( 1 though rumors persist del pseudonyms fred mccall bill higgins , beam jockey 'll see fermi national accelerator laboratory white sands june bitnet higgins fnal bitnet bring view graphs , internet higgins fnal fnal gov 'll bring span hepnet 43011 higgins col pete worden dc x
baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov \( ron baalke \) subject command loss timer \( galileo update 04 22 93 \) organization jet propulsion laboratory lines 22 distribution world nntp posting host kelvin jpl nasa gov keywords galileo , jpl news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article 1993apr23 bnr ca , agc bmdhh286 bnr ca \( alan carter \) writes article kelvin jpl nasa gov , baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov \( ron baalke \) writes 3 april 19 , op command sent reset command loss timer 264 hours , planned value mission phase activity regularly reported ron 's interesting posts could someone explain command loss timer \? command loss timer part fault protection scheme spacecraft command loss timer ever zero , spacecraft assumes lost communications earth go set steps try regain contact command loss timer set 264 hours reset week cruise phase , set lower value encounter phase ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab \) 525 3684 telos aweto new zealand pasadena , ca 91109 part caterpillar part vegetable
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject eco freaks forcing space mining organization u toronto zoology lines 22 article 1993apr21 1 aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes way get commericial companies space mineral exploration basically get eco freaks make hard get minerals earth n't going leave loophole glaring space mining quite people , come right , basically industrial civilization wo n't stop shutting mines means end worst thing say true revolutionary revolution unnecessary , problems corrected without radical change telling people paradise attained without revolution treason vilest kind trying harness people support spaceflight like trying harness buffalo pull 's got plenty muscle , right , go wants , want work one man 's work henry spencer u toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject keeping spacecraft funding cuts organization u toronto zoology lines 15 article 639 almaden ibm com nicho vnet ibm com writes since n't money keep going , changing seperate agency help anything \? transferring control non profit organisation able accept donations keep craft operational problem , ca n't raise adequate amounts money way viking fund tried succeed , way , political impact actual amount money raised fairly inconsequential would kept viking lander going work one man 's work henry spencer u toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject command loss timer \( galileo update 04 22 93 \) organization u toronto zoology lines 17 article 1993apr23 bnr ca agc bmdhh286 bnr ca \( alan carter \) writes op command sent reset command loss timer activity regularly reported ron 's interesting posts could someone explain command loss timer \? i'm mistaken , usual sort precaution loss communications timer counting continuously ever hits zero , means galileo n't heard earth suspiciously long time may galileo 's fault 's time go mode chances spacecraft damage chances restoring contact n't know exactly galileo situation , common example switch receivers , theory maybe one 're listening died work one man 's work henry spencer u toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
b23b ingr com \( james b reed \) subject space news feb 15 aw st nntp posting host reply ingr com organization intergraph electronics lines 10 article uy zoo toronto edu , henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) writes pluto 's atmosphere start freeze around 2010 , 2005 increasing areas pluto charon permanent shadow make imaging mapping impossible shadow come \? 's nothing close enough block sunlight hitting would n't expect anything block view either missing \? jim
tffreeba indyvax iupui edu subject death taxes \( give 1 billion \) lines 48 nsmca aurora alaska edu , university alaska fairbanks writes good deal healthy deeply thought deleted major question decide mine moon mars , stop \? truly \? parent company business \( \) face earth vulnerable govt sanctions yes stopped go moon declare nation , stop first 100 500 \( imho \) years nobody colonists dependent earth pull eventually , history shows us also means mine moon \( whatever \) un done right made busy something else , care exactly mean \? terrorism \? start international incident dream come true \? crack eggs make \? sounds fairly irresponsible basically saying drive go little bit farther , jus ta little bit , tell crown piss ancestors thought way many today think , id born central europe north black sea , tie much stronger space colonists immigrants gone even intrepid asian explorers crossed land bridge carry air backs michael adams , nsmca acad3 alaska edu i'm high , jacked keep dream alive , maybe dream little tom freebairn man built boat sail away sank j p fairy tale new york \( maybe \? \)
nanderso endor sim es com \( norman anderson \) subject comet launch \? organization evans sutherland computer corp lines 12 comet \( commercial experiment transport \) launch wallops island virginia orbit earth 30 days scheduled come utah test training range , west salt lake city , utah saw message group toward end march launch march 27 anyone know launched day , , scheduled launch come would also interested kind \( \) payload \( \) onboard thanks help norman anderson nanderso endor sim es com
prb access digex com \( pat \) subject command loss timer \( galileo update 04 22 93 \) organization express access online communications usa lines 20 nntp posting host access digex net keywords galileo , jpl interesting question galileo galileo 's hga stuck hga left closed , galileo venus flyby hga pointed att sun , near venus , would cook foci elements question could n't galileo 's course designed hga ever sun point \? , would normally aimed earth anyway \? would emergency situation e spacecraft seek might caused hga sun point \? pat
baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov \( ron baalke \) subject hst servicing mission scheduled 11 days organization jet propulsion laboratory lines 88 distribution world nntp posting host kelvin jpl nasa gov keywords hst news software vax vms vnews 1 41 ed headquarters , washington , c april 23 , 1993 \( phone 202 358 1780 \) kyle herring johnson space center , houston \( phone 713 483 5111 \) release 93 76 hubble telescope servicing mission scheduled eleven days december flight endeavour space shuttle mission sts 61 service hubble space telescope \( hst \) scheduled 11 day mission designed accommodate record five spacewalks capability additional two , needed decision schedule five activities , evas , reached following extensive evaluations underwater training , maneuver times required using shuttle 's robot arm based software simulations actual eva tasks previous missions basically 've done going five evas rather three margin capability respond dynamics , unknowns , spacewalks , mission director randy said improves probabilities mission success providing added flexibility reacting real time situations laying specific tasks completed spacewalks , officials determined changing gyros , solar arrays wide field planetary camera \( wf pc \) installing corrective optics space telescope axial replacement \( costar \) priority objectives mission looked accomplishing tasks , highest lowest priority , recognizing major tasks gyros , solar arrays , wf pc costar would consume time set aside spacewalk , five evas deemed appropriate , said milt , lead flight director mission five spacewalks unprecedented , use two alternating spacewalk teams alleviate placing stress crew previous missions requiring two , three four evas paid close attention lessons learned previous spacewalks factored timeline estimates five evas , said planning space shuttle missions , necessary formulate work schedule represents realistic timeline possible accomplish mission objectives planning currently calls least five water tank training sessions include support mission control center , called joint integrated simulations , lasting 10 36 hours addition , many stand alone underwater training runs practice individual tasks spacewalk various specific tasks spacewalk made based actual training experience months prior mission also , lessons learned spacewalks leading flight valuable assisting sts 61 crew training techniques endeavour 's june flight discovery 's july mission include spacewalks evaluate unique tools used hst mission evaluations help better understanding differences actual weightlessness space ground training water tanks johnson space center , houston , marshall space flight center , huntsville , ala also , spacewalking experiences assist gaining insight time required various tasks expand experience levels among astronaut corps , flight controllers designed serviced space shuttle crew , hubble built grapple fixtures assist capture repair procedures telescope launched aboard discovery april 1990 time nasa mixed fleet manifest showed first revisit mission hst 1993 change science instruments make repairs may become necessary end ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab \) 525 3684 telos aweto new zealand pasadena , ca 91109 part caterpillar part vegetable
prb access digex com \( pat \) subject moonbase race , nasa resources , \? organization express access online communications usa lines 9 nntp posting host access digex net henry , n't little joe big joe get built year \? 6 months little joe , 12 months big joe \? thought saw something old mercury film pat
prb access digex com \( pat \) subject eco freaks forcing space mining organization express access online communications usa lines 25 nntp posting host access digex net article 1993apr23 1 aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes article access digex net , prb access digex com \( pat \) writes besides line horse puckey mining companies claimed told pay restoring land strip mining aint talking large even mining companies talking small miners , people employees \( \) people go every year set thier box , mining semi old fashion way \( okay use modern methods point \) lot 's small miners longer miners people living rent free federal land , claim miner facts many people heir income mining , often even live full time , fair bit environmental damage statutes created inthe 1830 's 1870 's west designed bring people frontier times change people change deal n't constitutional right live industry forever anyone claims right job particular , spouting nonsense long term federal welfare program , 's usefulness pat
uphrrmk gemini oscs montana edu \( jack coyote \) subject planets still images orbit ether twist reply uphrrmk gemini oscs montana edu \( jack coyote \) organization never , never lines 14 sci astro , dmcaloon tuba calpoly edu \( david mcaloon \) writes nearly perfect parody needed random caps thanks chuckle \( loved bit relevance people starving somalia ! \) 've taken seriously , read name ! \( aloud \) thank , thank , 'll week enjoy buffet !
mccall mksol dseg ti com \( fred j mccall 575 3539 \) subject dc 1 way future organization texas instruments inc lines 22 mgl access digex net prb access digex com \( pat \) writes article 1993apr22 julian uwo ca jdnicoll prism ccs uwo ca \( james davis nicoll \) writes hmmm seem recall attraction solid state record players radios 1960s n't better performance lower per unit cost vacuum tube systems n't think first , solid state offered better , id bet , lower costs would processes really scaled careful making statements solid state \( generally \) reliable analog get nasty follow tommy mac pat wait minute pat pleased see 're suffering small mind \) insisting perfect safety people n't balls live real world mary shafer , nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com n't speak others n't speak
mccall mksol dseg ti com \( fred j mccall 575 3539 \) subject command loss timer \( galileo update 04 22 93 \) keywords galileo , jpl organization texas instruments inc lines 25 1993apr23 bnr ca agc bmdhh286 bnr ca \( alan carter \) writes article kelvin jpl nasa gov , baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov \( ron baalke \) writes 3 april 19 , op command sent reset command loss timer 264 hours , planned value mission phase activity regularly reported ron 's interesting posts could someone explain command loss timer \? command loss timer timer name says indicates probe lost data link receiving commands upon expiration command loss timer , believe probe starts sequence \( involving antenna pointing attitude changes consume fuel \) try reestablish communications ops sent periodically periods real commands sent , probe knows n't forgotten hope 's clear enough insisting perfect safety people n't balls live real world mary shafer , nasa ames dryden fred mccall dseg ti com n't speak others n't speak
jdnicoll prism ccs uwo ca \( james davis nicoll \) subject new planet kuiper object found \? organization university western ontario , london distribution sci nntp posting host prism uwo ca lines 5 new kuiper belt object called 'karla' , next one called 'smiley' james nicoll
gfk39017 uxa cso uiuc edu \( george f krumins \) subject vandalizing sky organization university illinois urbana lines 31 jeff cook ftcollinsco ncr com \( jeff cook \) writes article c5t05k db6 research canon oz au enzo research canon oz au \( enzo liguori \) writes , space marketing light pollution observations \? \( read somewhere else might even visible day , leave alone night \) ca n't believe mile long billboard would significant effect overall sky brightness venus visible day , nobody complains besides , 's leo , would texas star party years ago , sky dark venus , indeed , cause light pollution set even billboard dark could cause problem imagine observing object halfway run , object ! would guess people stating positive opinions serious observers typical rights minority extinguished wants majority , matter ridiculous wants might george krumins george krumins gfk39017 uxa cso uiuc edu
baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov \( ron baalke \) subject sirtf mission still alive organization jet propulsion laboratory lines 114 distribution world nntp posting host kelvin jpl nasa gov keywords sirtf , jpl news software vax vms vnews 1 41 jpl universe april 23 , 1993 sirtf still much business mark times extra tight nasa budgets , survival number missions uncertain thanks major design implemented recent months , jpl 's space infrared telescope facility \( sirtf \) major project considered trouble couple years ago alive well , according project scientist michael werner lighter spacecraft , revised orbit shorter mission added less expensive project tremendous scientific power bright future , said werner designed follow highly successful infrared astronomical satellite \( iras \) cosmic background explorer \( cobe \) missions , sirtf cooled observatory infrared astronomy space scheduled launch 2000 2001 plans proceed scheduled pioneering work space based infrared astronomy 10 years ago allowed astronomers view milky way never revealed , among things , 60 , 000 galaxies 25 comets provided sky survey 1 , 000 times sensitive previously available ground based observations cobe measured infrared microwave background radiation large angular scales , revealed new facts early universe illuminate sirtf 's potential , jim evans , jpl 's manager astrophysics fundamental physics pre projects , recently said project 1 , 000 1 million times capable iras , based technological advances infrared detector arrays however , despite enormous strides infrared exploration sirtf promised , fact cited highest priority new initiative astronomy 1990s \( national academy sciences \) , took diet die directive nasa headquarters last year keep project going , according werner project known atlas sirtf , based key factor new design satellite orbit sun instead earth , permitting use atlas rocket launch instead formerly proposed heavier titan main advantage solar orbit use launch capability boosting payload n't carry second rocket orbit , werner said advantage solar orbit , said , 's better thermal environment , away heat earth additional major changes sirtf 's redesign include shortening mission five three years building spacecraft less half heavy original plan atlas sirtf weigh 2 , 470 kilograms \( 5 , 400 pounds \) compared titan sirtf 's 5 , 500 kilograms \( 12 , 100 pounds \) adds less launch environment , werner said , cost savings 200 million launch , addition increased savings design smaller , less massive spacecraft werner said sirtf 's redesign came result telling nasa 're trying many things want us support sirtf , good project , develop plan see fits \( nasa 's \) overall strategy shortly thereafter , sirtf named nasa 's highest priority flagship scientific mission interdisciplinary space sciences advisory committee , addition blessing national academy sciences spacecraft instruments required keep project alive , sirtf 's major scientific contribution always promised come advanced infrared detector arrays , allow images developed tens thousands times faster , according evans couple years ago , werner said , infrared astronomy done single detectors small arrays individually assembled detectors since , department defense developed program produce arrays tens hundreds thousands detectors , rather , well suited use sirtf werner noted addition dealing budget pressures , congress currently watching nasa projects eye technological question , think things say , said , detectors 're using straight various military developments also , sirtf built u aerospace industry , 's real technological engineering challenge addition tremendous scientific project sirtf used entire astronomical community , werner added , revised three year mission puts premium observing time educate user community develop program involves early surveys quick turnaround data werner said project required reduction scope complexity sirtf 's three instruments infrared , infrared array camera imaging photometer however , reductions result losses efficiency rather capability , said project hopes start phase b activity 1995 , provide detailed concept development design building hardware would begin two years later projected cost estimates , evans said , 850 million 950 million optimistic sirtf , said provide tremendous return investment werner added additional benefit project enrichment intellectual cultural environment people street interested astronomy black holes , possibility life planets , origin universe kind questions sirtf help answer ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab \) 525 3684 telos aweto new zealand pasadena , ca 91109 part caterpillar part vegetable
baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov \( ron baalke \) subject stephen hawking tours jpl organization jet propulsion laboratory lines 68 distribution world nntp posting host kelvin jpl nasa gov keywords jpl news software vax vms vnews 1 41 jpl universe april 23 , 1993 stephen hawking tours lab marino 15 years first visit jpl , prof stephen hawking , professor mathematics cambridge university author brief history time , returned lab april 5 tour hosted jpl chief scientist dr chahine merle mckenzie , manager international affairs office , hawking visited variety facilities , met lab director dr edward stone various project scientists managers , felt like royalty , said hawking , whose theories attempt explain origin distant galaxies , black holes alternate dimensions , wanted visit jpl , explained , i'm interested things space farther away , know first steps taken hawking , accompanied family , two graduate students aides , began tour von auditorium , david evans , deputy assistant lab director office flight projects , dr arden , mars observer 's project scientist , briefed current past flight projects voyager pointed , special attention paid gold plate series images extraterrestrial life stumble upon spacecraft , evans noted , would find variety images would explain something earth professor asked still communicating spacecraft , evans affirmed using model mars observer , spent several minutes describing project spacecraft 's features answer question hawking , chahine described proposed drag free satellite , confirmed point , 's concept chahine , met hawking caltech five years , described professor living miracle power brain 's miraculous , good sense humor next stop , demonstration scientific data visualization section 384 's digital image animation lab , entertained delighted group , everyone goggles view 3 images mars project scientist dr eric de jong showed latest data comet recently discovered orbit close jupiter hawking curious composition , shown images developed , asked several questions interpretation norman haynes , , office telecommunications data acquisition , briefed professor space flight operations facility , hawking spoke stone day ended two technical discussions particular interest professor technical group leader dr frank senior research scientist hugo described three spacecraft gravity wave experiment , currently way planetary astronomer dr richard explained philosophy plans extra solar system planetary detection hawking party , visiting southern california five weeks , headquartered caltech , planned leave england within weeks lab tour upon , cambridge based scientist promised chahine would return jpl another visit ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab \) 525 3684 telos aweto new zealand pasadena , ca 91109 part caterpillar part vegetable
simon nada kth se \( simon \) subject sunrise sunset times nntp posting host nada kth se organization royal institute technology , stockholm , sweden lines 14 1993apr21 cbis ece drexel edu jpw cbis ece drexel edu \( joseph wetstein \) writes hello looking program \( algorithm \) used compute sunrise sunset times would appreciate advice thought would easiest fitting sine times gave discrepancy upto six minutes fit sine series 'll get good fit three four terms though presumably eccentricity earths orbit simon , , simon nada kth se v ga v !
baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov \( ron baalke \) subject jpl 's vlbi project meets international space agencies organization jet propulsion laboratory lines 112 distribution world nntp posting host kelvin jpl nasa gov keywords vlbi , jpl news software vax vms vnews 1 41 jpl universe april 23 , 1993 vlbi project meets international space agencies ed members jpl 's space long baseline \( vlbi \) project team recently concluded week long series meetings officials russia japan meetings part space vlbi week held jpl early march intended maintain cooperation international space agencies participating development u space vlbi project , recently approved jpl flight project set launch 1995 u space vlbi utilize two earth orbiting spacecraft japanese \( vlbi space observing program \) satellite 8 meter radio telescope , russian 10 meter satellite spacecraft team ground based radio telescopes located around world create radio telescope network astronomers hope expand radio telescope observing power factor 10 japan 's satellite use limited six hour orbit conduct imaging science , russian spacecraft exploit larger , 28 hour earth orbit conduct radio astronomy satellite point source target roughly 24 hours , approximately 20 ground based radio telescopes simultaneously point source object within view earth according dr joel smith , jpl 's project manager u space vlbi , meetings like held jpl permit japan russia , little previous experience radio , establish working relationships radio astronomy communities vital complex observations required space vlbi project one main activities developing methodology international coordination , two spacecraft simultaneously rely corresponding tracking stations using ground based radio telescopes observe celestial objects , said smith three new tracking antennas built dsn facilities three tracking facilities located japan , russia green bank , w va global network ground based radio telescopes use precision clocks high speed recorders collect observation data forward information located national radio astronomy observatory , n combine process data , make available mission investigators moscow , tokyo , jpl via electronic mail smith optimistic massive radio telescope created space vlbi network provide radio astronomers better resolution ever achieved ground based radio telescopes , allowing astronomers take closer look distant objects space long history radio astronomy using ground based telescopes , said smith intend extend radio astronomy earth orbit goal look deeper cores galactic nuclei , quasars active radio sources understand drives things seen far radio astronomy smith noted one examines active galactic nuclei , 'll find jets appearing spew speeds greater light , energy levels millions times greater would expect said astronomers believe black holes may located cores galaxies , may fuel jets smith hopes using space vlbi look cores , theory may supported disproved russian space flight hardware , including transponders transmitters , tested united states , japanese hardware scheduled arrive testing later year analysis hardware permit u scientists engineers understand modify high speed operating nrao order accommodate odd data patterns originate 20 ground based radio telescopes involved space vlbi smith particularly pleased meetings japanese russian space agency officials like held jpl march proceeded smoothly yet knows political uncertainty russia could jeopardize country 's participation project nothing ever smooth , said , russians incredibly open us always anticipated likelihood succeed political factors beyond control , yet tends way keeping things going , scientists sides trying hard , people recognize value cooperation level smith points japanese space agency stake fulfilling international commitment science mission japanese extremely cooperative , since international cooperation essential science mission , said smith also noted japanese space agency officials look u space vlbi mission opportunity showcase technology involved spacecraft , highly regarded mach v launch vehicle yet regardless risks involved undertaking ambitious project , jpl 's smith satisfied planning space vlbi project beyond significant financial political otherwise might threaten project fortunately , virtue two partners , either falls , would still something , spacecraft independent , scientifically exciting missions ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab \) 525 3684 telos aweto new zealand pasadena , ca 91109 part caterpillar part vegetable
edm twisto compaq com \( ed mccreary \) subject keeping spacecraft funding cuts reply nicho vnet ibm com 's message fri , 23 apr 93 09 06 09 bst organization compaq computer corp access digex net murdoch acc virginia edu 639 almaden ibm com lines 14 fri , 23 apr 93 09 06 09 bst , nicho vnet ibm com \( greg stewart nicholls \) said gs transferring control non profit organisation gs able accept donations keep craft operational seem remember nasa considering apollo equipment left moon , decided maybe ed mccreary , edm twisto compaq com , laughter , would tao \( \) ' \( \)
de \( theo \) subject sunrise sunset times organization international , lines 15 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 nice little tool lucid emacs 's called calendar request shows given longitude latitude coordinates times sunset sunrise code written lisp n't know like idea editor right program calculate things theo w theo international gmbh email sunny de 22 phone 49 69 66 77 639 6000 main fax 49 69 66 77 571 germany
leech cs unc edu \( jon leech \) subject weekly reminder frequently asked questions list supersedes reminder cs unc edu organization university north carolina , chapel hill lines 36 distribution world expires 7 may 1993 17 25 40 gmt nntp posting host mahler cs unc edu notice posted weekly sci space , sci astro , sci space shuttle frequently asked questions \( faq \) list sci space sci astro posted approximately monthly also covers many questions come sci space shuttle \( shuttle launch dates , see \) faq posted long expiration date , copy may news spool directory \( look old articles sci space \) , two ways get copy without waiting next posting \( 1 \) machine internet , obtained anonymous ftp space archive ames arc nasa gov \( 128 102 18 3 \) directory pub space faq \( 2 \) otherwise , send email server ames arc nasa containing single line help archive server return directions use get index files faq directory , send email containing lines send space faq index send space faq use files guide files retrieve answer questions shuttle launch dates posted ken hollis periodically sci space shuttle copy manifest available ames archive pub space faq manifest may requested email archive server 'send space faq please get document instead posting requests information launches landings post followups article respond author
asimov nas nasa gov \( daniel asimov \) subject sunrise sunset times organization nas , nasa ames research center , moffett field , california lines 19 article 1993apr21 cbis ece drexel edu jpw cbis ece drexel edu \( joseph wetstein \) writes hello looking program \( algorithm \) used compute sunrise sunset times joe wetstein wonderful book jean called astronomical algorithms , \( 1991 \) fairly sure contains algorithm sunrise sunset times dan asimov mail stop 1 nasa ames research center moffett field , ca 94035 1000 asimov nas nasa gov \( 415 \) 604
higgins fnalf fnal gov \( bill higgins beam jockey \) subject level 5 \? organization fermi national accelerator laboratory lines 20 nntp posting host fnalf fnal gov article 246 almaden ibm com , wingert vnet ibm com \( bret wingert \) writes 3 onboard flight software project rated level 5 nasa team group generates 20 40 verified code per year nasa someone tell ignorant physicist term level 5 comes \? sounds like risks digest equivalent large , extra large , jumbo maybe 's like 5 gather means shuttle software developed extreme care safety , almost everything else computing world level 1 , cheesy dime store software surprising invents standard , come everyone seems familiar \? course , shakespeare bill higgins , beam jockey originally wrote first thing fermi national accelerator laboratory , let 's kill editors bitnet higgins fnal bitnet reason n't internet higgins fnal fnal gov survive past first draft span hepnet 43011 higgins david levine \( ssd intel com \)
kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov subject space station redesign , jsc alternative 4 organization nasa jsc gm2 , space shuttle program office x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 71 19 \( 2 mb worth ! \) uuencode 'd gif images contain charts outlining one many alternative space station designs considered crystal city mr mark works hall , reached comment \( 713 \) 483 , via e mail nasa gov mark proposed design , calls \( rough outside , gem inside \) et integrated hab modules centrifuge see file gif , uses space shuttle external tank \( et \) place much truss currently part space station freedom white track outside et used station manipulator system \( \) reaction control system \( rcs \) pod allows rcs pod move along track occur near center gravity \( cg \) station mass properties station change assembly inline module design allows shuttle dock easily approach closer station 's cg structurally strong part station current ssf design , docking forces limited 400 pounds , seriously design docking system et would hatch installed pre flight , little additional launch mass 've always ability put et orbit \( contrary rumors circulated \) , 've never reason , good reasons \( performance penalties , control , debris generation , eventual de orbit impact footprint \) orbit , would vent residual h2 et insulation \( \) either \) orbit impact atomic oxygen , b \) stays , deploy kevlar sheath around protect keep contaminating local space environment option b \) advantage providing protection et incredibly strong \( remember , supports whole stack launch \) , could serve nucleus much ambitious design budget permits white module end et contains set control moment gyros used attitude control , rcs used gyro module also contains de orbit system used end station 's life perform controlled de orbit \( n't kill , like skylab \) centrifuge , volume hab module , could used long term studies effects lunar martian gravity humans centrifuge used momentum storage device whole attitude control system centrifuge mounted one modules , opposite et solar panels design uses existing ssf designs electrical , data communication systems , getting leverage ssf work done date mark proposed design joe shea 's committee crystal city , reports warmly received however , rumors hear say design based wingless space shuttle orbiter seems likely please note text interpretation mark 's design see notes gif files instead posting 2 mb file sci space , tried post anon ftp ames arc nasa gov , storage space 'll let know get done ken jenks , nasa jsc gm2 , space shuttle program office kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov \( 713 \) 483 4368 development space station inevitable rising sun von braun
jafoust cco caltech edu \( jeff foust \) subject new planet kuiper object found \? organization caltech pasadena , california , usa lines 12 distribution sci nntp posting host sandman caltech edu recent article jdnicoll prism ccs uwo ca \( james davis nicoll \) writes new kuiper belt object called 'karla' , next one called 'smiley' unless i'm imaging things , \( always possibility \) 1992 qb1 , kuiper belt object discovered last year , known smiley jeff foust 49 days ! 're outer space senior , planetary science , caltech , i'm iowa work jafoust cco caltech edu outer space jeff jpl nasa gov star trek iv voyage home
kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov subject russian email contacts organization nasa jsc gm2 , space shuttle program office x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 10 coordinating space shuttle program office 's e mail traffic npo energia going joint missions several e mail addresses npo energia folks , wo n't post 'net obvious reasons need know , give yell ken jenks , nasa jsc gm2 , space shuttle program office kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov \( 713 \) 483 4368 earth cradle humanity , mankind stay cradle forever
steinly topaz ucsc edu \( steinn sigurdsson \) subject vandalizing sky organization lick observatory uco lines 23 nntp posting host topaz ucsc edu reply flb flb optiplan fi 's message fri , 23 apr 1993 12 01 38 gmt article 1 cs cmu edu flb flb optiplan fi \( f baube tm \) writes phil g fraering pgf srl03 cacs usl edu finally n't bronze age , please try remember human activities practiced warrior caste , farming caste , priesthood right , profiting caste blessed god , may freely blare presence evening twilight priesthood never quite forgiven merchants \( aka profiting caste sic \) rise power , \? \) steinn sigurdsson lick observatory steinly lick ucsc edu standard disclaimer ya know penguin types offend gosh life offensive ! ! bb 1984
steinly topaz ucsc edu \( steinn sigurdsson \) subject new planet kuiper object found \? organization lick observatory uco lines 23 distribution sci gap caltech edu nntp posting host topaz ucsc edu reply jafoust cco caltech edu 's message 23 apr 1993 18 44 19 gmt article gap caltech edu jafoust cco caltech edu \( jeff foust \) writes recent article jdnicoll prism ccs uwo ca \( james davis nicoll \) writes new kuiper belt object called 'karla' , next one called 'smiley' unless i'm imaging things , \( always possibility \) 1992 qb1 , kuiper belt object discovered last year , known smiley happens second one karla first one smiley subject iau course , think might let one slide steinn sigurdsson lick observatory steinly lick ucsc edu standard disclaimer worst thing say true revolutionary revolution unnecessary , problems corrected without radical change telling people paradise attained without revolution treason vilest kind h 1993 try new sig forum \)
gfk39017 uxa cso uiuc edu \( george f krumins \) subject space news feb 15 aw st organization university illinois urbana lines 23 b23b ingr com \( james b reed \) writes article uy zoo toronto edu , henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) writes pluto 's atmosphere start freeze around 2010 , 2005 increasing areas pluto charon permanent shadow make imaging mapping impossible 's understanding freezing start occur growing distance pluto charon sun , due 's elliptical orbit due shadowing effects shadow come \? 's nothing close enough block sunlight hitting would n't expect anything block view either missing \? pluto shadow charon , vice versa george krumins george krumins gfk39017 uxa cso uiuc edu pufferfish observatory
thomsonal cpva saic com subject space surveillance \? organization science applications int'l corp san diego lines 111 , 've assumed countries significant capabilities track non cooperative objects low earth orbit grazing couple databases recently , found japan optical capabilities along line , also uses radar designed purposes orbital debris surveys \( n't clear whether radar determine orbital elements objects detects \) abstracts articles appended leads general question yet people us , russia , japan space surveillance , , \? allen thomson saic mclean , va , usa abstracts optical tracking experimental satellite \( egs \) , , , radio research laboratory , review \( \) , vol 34 , march 1988 , p 23 34 japanese , abstract english paper reports optical tracking results egs \( experimental satellite \) launched august 13 , 1986 , nasda egs optical tracking experiment process outline radio research laboratory \( \) optical ground station discussed star tracking technique optical equipment calibration satellite tracking technique orbit prediction improvement also described accuracy egs tracking data obtained request nasda also discussed addition , briefly demonstrated position japanese amateur satellite \( jas 1 \) launched egs , accurately determined means satellite tracking video clear experiment optical observation data \( e , satellite direction data \) useful satellite orbit determination initial launch stages furthermore , results confirm two satellite optical tracking techniques mu radar measurements orbital debris sato , , , kimura , \( kyoto university , japan \) aiaa , nasa , dod , orbital debris conference technical issues future directions , baltimore , md , apr 16 19 , 1990 10 p aiaa paper 90 distributions orbital debris versus height scattering cross section determined series observations made high power vhf doppler radar \( mu radar \) japan automated data processing algorithm developed discriminate echoes orbiting objects undesired signals meteor trail echoes lightning although results preliminary , showed good agreement norad tracking radar observations using much higher frequency found collision frequency space station 1 km x 1 km size altitude 500 km orbiting debris expected high per two years monitoring mu radar antenna pattern satellite \( c \) sato , , , \( kyoto univ , japan \) kato , kyoto univ , \( japan \) radio atmospheric science center international council scientific unions , middle atmosphere program handbook map , vol 20 5 p publication date jun 1986 first attempt among mst \( stratosphere \) type radars , mu \( middle upper atmosphere \) radar features active phased array system unlike conventional large vhf radars , output power large vacuum tube distributed individual antenna elements , 475 solid state power amplifier feeds antenna element system configuration enables fast beam steering well various flexible operations dividing antenna independent , phase shift signal division combination performed low signal level using electronic devices control computer network antenna beam switched within 10 direction within zenith angle 30 deg since precise phase alignment element crucial realize excellent performance system , careful calibration output phase power amplifier antenna element carried among various aircraft may used purpose artificial satellites advantage able make long term monitoring system antenna pattern monitoring system mu radar developed using scientific satellite \( c \) receiver named mum \( mu radar antenna monitor \) board satellite measures cw signal 100 400 watts transmitted mu radar principle measurement results discussed equatorial radar system , , sato , kato , \( kyoto university , , japan \) \( , , , et al , meeting , 27th , workshops symposium earth 's middle atmosphere , espoo , finland , july 18 29 , 1988 \) advances space research \( 1177 \) , vol 10 , 10 , 1990 , p 151 154 large clear air radar sensitivity incoherent scatter radar observing whole equatorial atmosphere 1000 km altitude designed japan radar built , west , indonesia \( 0 03 deg n , 109 29 deg e \) system 47 mhz doppler radar active phased array configuration similar mu radar japan , successful operation since 1983 pa product 3 x 10 9th w sq \( p average transmitter power , effective antenna aperture \) sensitivity approximately 10 times mu radar system configuration enables pulse pulse beam steering within 20 deg zenith case mu radar , variety operations made feasible supervision radar controller brief description system configuration presented
baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov \( ron baalke \) subject mars observer update 04 23 93 organization jet propulsion laboratory lines 48 distribution world nntp posting host kelvin jpl nasa gov keywords mars observer , jpl news software vax vms vnews 1 41 forwarded mars observer project mars observer status report april 23 , 1993 10 00 pdt flight sequence c8 active , spacecraft subsystems instrument payload performing well array normal spin outer cruise configuration , uplink downlink via high gain antenna uplink 125 bps , downlink 2 k engineering data rate result spacecraft entering contingency mode april 9 , payload instruments automatically powered board fault protection software gamma ray spectrometer random access memory successfully reloaded monday , april 19 prepare magnetometer execution flight sequence c9 tuesday wednesday next week , reload payload data system random access memory take place morning beginning 10 30 weekend , flight team send real time commands perform differential one way ranging obtain additional data analysis navigation team radio science ultra stable oscillator testing take place monday flight sequence c9 uplink occur sunday , april 25 , activation midnight , monday evening april 26 c9 modified include magnetometer could performed c8 due contingency mode entry april 9 magnetometer instrument allow instrument team better characterize spacecraft generated magnetic field effect instrument information critical martian magnetic field measurements occur approach mapping phases mag require sequence command spacecraft array normal spin state perform slew roll maneuvers provide mag team data points varying spacecraft attitudes orientations today , spacecraft 22 , 971 , 250 km \( 14 , 273 , 673 mi \) mars travelling velocity 2 09 kilometers second \( 4 , 677 mph \) respect mars one way light time approximately 10 minutes , 38 seconds ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab \) 525 3684 telos aweto new zealand pasadena , ca 91109 part caterpillar part vegetable
baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov \( ron baalke \) subject magellan update 04 23 93 organization jet propulsion laboratory lines 34 distribution world nntp posting host kelvin jpl nasa gov keywords magellan , jpl news software vax vms vnews 1 41 forwarded doug griffith , magellan project manager magellan status report april 23 , 1993 1 magellan spacecraft continues operate normally , gathering gravity data plot density variations venus mid latitudes solar panel returned zero degrees spacecraft temperatures dropped 2 3 degrees c 2 end end test delayed aerobraking data readout process conducted week preparation transition experiment difficulty locking data frames , engineers presently checking whether problem equipment tracking station 3 magellan completed orbits venus 32 days end cycle 4 start transition experiment 4 magellan scientists participating brown brown university providence , ri , week joint meeting u russian venus researchers continuing many years 5 three day simulation transition experiment aerobraking activities planned next week , including orbit trim maneuvers \( star calibration \) orbits ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab \) 525 3684 telos aweto new zealand pasadena , ca 91109 part caterpillar part vegetable
jdnicoll prism ccs uwo ca \( james davis nicoll \) subject new planet kuiper object found \? organization university western ontario , london distribution sci nntp posting host prism uwo ca lines 20 article steinly topaz ucsc edu steinly topaz ucsc edu \( steinn sigurdsson \) writes article gap caltech edu jafoust cco caltech edu \( jeff foust \) writes recent article jdnicoll prism ccs uwo ca \( james davis nicoll \) writes new kuiper belt object called 'karla' , next one called 'smiley' unless i'm imaging things , \( always possibility \) 1992 qb1 , kuiper belt object discovered last year , known smiley happens second one karla first one smiley subject iau course , think might let one slide gee , feel ignorant research , post james nicoll
dbm0000 tm0006 lerc nasa gov \( david b mckissock \) subject space station redesign chief health reasons organization nasa lewis research center cleveland , ohio lines 30 distribution world nntp posting host tm0006 lerc nasa gov news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article skates gsfc nasa gov , xrcjd mudpuppy gsfc nasa gov \( charles j divine \) writes writer kathy sawyer reported today 's washington post joseph shea , head space station redesign resigned health reasons shea hospitalized shortly selection february returned yesterday lead formal presentation independent white house panel shea 's presentation rambling almost missed presentations given morning session \( shea gave rambling almost presentation \) , attend afternoon session meeting small conference room speaker wired mike , microphones table panel members use \( like \) sat outside conference room , watched presentations closed circuit tv general , sound system fair poor , speakers \( like committee member italian space agency \) also almost shea n't lead formal presentation , sense running guiding presentation n't even attend afternoon session vest ran show \( president mit , chair advisory panel \) shea 's deputy , former astronaut bryan o'connor , take effort note o'connor running day day operations redesign team since shea got sick \( immediately panel formed \)
subject surviving large accelerations \? eis calstate edu \( lan pham \) organization calif state univ electronic information services lines 25 amruth laxman andrew cmu edu writes hi , reading spaceflight handbook somewhere author discusses solar sails forces acting try gain initial acceleration passing close sun hyperbolic orbit magnitude accelerations estimated order also says may big problem manned craft humans \( published 1986 \) already withstood accelerations 45g long winded 's question finally 45g accelerations fact humanly tolerable \? aid mechanical devices course possible , used absorb acceleration \? extended larger accelerations \? sure 45g right number \? far know , pilots blackout dives exceed 8g 9g 45g seems human tolerance would anybody clarify please lan thanks advance amruth laxman
nsmca aurora alaska edu subject eco freaks forcing space mining article aurora 1993apr23 1 organization university alaska fairbanks lines 43 nntp posting host acad3 alaska edu article access digex net , prb access digex com \( pat \) writes article 1993apr23 1 aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes article access digex net , prb access digex com \( pat \) writes besides line horse puckey mining companies claimed told pay restoring land strip mining aint talking large even mining companies talking small miners , people employees \( \) people go every year set thier box , mining semi old fashion way \( okay use modern methods point \) lot 's small miners longer miners people living rent free federal land , claim miner facts many people heir income mining , often even live full time , fair bit environmental damage statutes created inthe 1830 's 1870 's west designed bring people frontier times change people change deal n't constitutional right live industry forever anyone claims right job particular , spouting nonsense long term federal welfare program , 's usefulness pat hum , enjoy putting words mouth \? come meet miners sure things go south lower 48 \( used visit , \) , course believe media news going heck \( plain crazy \) well seems alot types seem think job right , right job , see kennedy 's tel see \( families married \) reason many historians poli sci types use socialist breath miners know , average people pay taxes earn living taxes answer maybe could move discussion appropriate newsgroup michael adams , nsmca acad3 alaska edu i'm high , jacked
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject space news feb 15 aw st organization u toronto zoology lines 23 article 1993apr23 dazixco ingr com ingr com writes pluto 's atmosphere start freeze around 2010 , 2005 increasing areas pluto charon permanent shadow make imaging mapping impossible shadow come \? 's nothing close enough block sunlight hitting would n't expect anything block view either missing \? 're assuming normal rotation carries areas surface sunlight even earth , pole gets several weeks without sunlight mid winter pluto charon much extreme axial tilt much longer orbit pluto 's north pole , example , gets century darkness followed century perpetual light moment , 're luck pluto charon past equinox , sun horizon poles \( \) get probes soon , immediate vicinity one pole \( \) long term shadow get steadily worse longer wait work one man 's work henry spencer u toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
nsmca aurora alaska edu subject space design movies \? article aurora 1993apr23 1 organization university alaska fairbanks lines 11 nntp posting host acad3 alaska edu grasp pictures space related items , namely space station designs , see finished revolt around n't know grasp check adult entertainment files see mean maybe gif files create slide shows \( think cshow \) liek able see space shuttle design autocad program see revolt around look michael adams , nsmca acad3 alaska edu i'm high , jacked
subject vandalizing sky thacker rhea arc ab ca organization alberta research council nntp posting host rhea arc ab ca lines 13 article c5t05k db6 research canon oz au , enzo research canon oz au \( enzo liguori \) writes message deleted light pollution observations \? \( read somewhere else might even visible day , leave alone night \) really , really depressed enzo need depressed one lights n't day n't daytime light pollution
dbm0000 tm0006 lerc nasa gov \( david b mckissock \) subject space station redesign , jsc alternative 4 organization nasa lewis research center cleveland , ohio lines 102 distribution world nntp posting host tm0006 lerc nasa gov news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article 1993apr23 1105 aio jsc nasa gov , kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov writes description external tank option ssf redesign deleted mark proposed design joe shea 's committee crystal city , reports warmly received however , rumors hear say design based wingless space shuttle orbiter seems likely yo ken , let 's keep top things ! external tank wingless orbiter options deleted ssf redesign options list today 's \( 4 23 \) edition new york times reports o'connor told panel redesign proposals dropped , using giant external fuel tanks used launching space shuttles , building station around existing space shuttle wings tail removed currently , three options considered , presented advisory panel meeting yesterday \( reported today 's times \) option low cost modular approach option studied team msfc aside , ssf redesign teams msfc , jsc , larc supporting srt \( station redesign team \) crystal city lerc reston folks also site locations , helping respective teams redesign activities key features option uses bus 1 , modular bus developed lockheed 's qualified sts elv 's bus provides propulsion , gn c communications , data management lockheed developed air force power station capability obtained 3 shuttle flights ssf solar arrays used provide 20 kw power vehicle flies arrow mode optimize microgravity environment shuttle spacelab missions would utilize power source 30 day missions human tended capability \( opposed old ssf sexist term man tended capability \) achieved addition us common module modified version existing ssf lab module \( docking ports added international labs , taking place nodes ssf \) shuttle docked station 60 day missions orbiter would provide crew eva capability international human tended add nasda esa modules , add another 20 kw power permanent human presence capability add 3rd power module , u habitation module , acrv \( assured crew return vehicle \) option b space station freedom derived option b team based larc , lead mike griffin option looks alot like existing ssf design , come know love \) option assumes lightweight external tank available use ssf assembly flights \( option \) also , number flights computed 51 6 inclination orbit , options b build occurs six phases initial research capability reached 3 flights power transferred vehicle orbiter spacelab , visits man tended capability \( griffin yet adopted non sexist language \) achieved 8 flights u lab deployed , 1 solar power module provides 20 kw power permanent human presence capability occurs 10 flights , keeping one orbiter orbit use acrv \( sometimes would two orbiters orbit acrv , second one comes logistics supply \) two fault tolerance capability achieved 14 flights , addition 2nd power module , another thermal control system radiator , propulsion modules 20 flights , board power , habitation module , acrv added finish assembly 24 flights systems currently ssf used option , exception data management system , major changes option c single core launch station jsc lead option basically , take 23 ft diameter cylinder 's 92 ft long , slap 3 space shuttle main engines backside , put nose cone top , attached regular shuttle external tank regular set solid rocket motors , launch key features complete end end ground integration checkout 4 tangentially mounted fixed solar panels body mounted radiators \( adds protection orbital debris \) 2 centerline docking ports \( one end \) 7 berthing ports single pressurized volume , approximately 26 , 000 cubic feet \( twice volume skylab \) 7 floors , center passageway floors 10 kw housekeeping power graceful degradation failures \( 8 power channels , 4 thermal loops , dual environmental control life support system \) increased crew time utilization 1 micro g thru core module
hathaway stsci edu subject vandalizing sky distribution na organization space telescope science institute lines 101 newsgroups sci astro , sci space subject vandalizing sky \( excerpts posting topic \) article c5t05k db6 research canon oz au enzo research canon oz au \( enzo liguori \) writes , space marketing working university colorado livermore engineers plan place mile long inflatable billboard low earth orbit real purpose project help environment ! platform carry ozone monitors ca n't believe mile long billboard would significant effect overall sky brightness venus visible day , nobody complains besides , 's leo , would visible twilight sky already bright , even would miniscule impact , would short time goes across sky \( 've seen satellites midnight 're twilight \) \) book prodigal genius life tesla john j o'neill remarkable conductivity gases , including air , low pressures , led tesla suggest , published statement 1914 , system lighting terrestrial scale proposed treat whole earth , surrounding atmosphere , single lamp whole earth would transformed giant lamp , night sky completely illuminated making night bright day comments 'd like add protests come strictly practical consideration pollution levels acceptable research activities professional astronomers would complain rooted aesthetics many readers may never known time heavens pristine sacred actions humans space stars profoundly black abyss full horizons pure sky one could look upon half creation time none connection petty matters man lights supplied solely nature men whole religions based mortal man somehow getting becoming immortal stars , whether belief afterlife space age changed effect first echo , etc view could happen see light crossing night sky know put us puny people still impressive sense size one gets scales involved also awesome even hundreds thousands miles involved still rest universe still hunger pure beauty virgin sky yes , know aircraft almost always sight live populated area \( 6 miles international airport currently \) light pollution ground ghastly impact humans extreme virtually place exists shaped , , modified , trashed whipped shape hands man places life forms larger bacteria humans , cockroaches , \( rats \) visited friends mountains one weekend , getting away \( paved roads , plumbing , malls , \) felt good quickly noticed hollow directly main flight path 60 80 miles east \( n't help matters much either \) 've heard artic wilderness gets lots high air traffic know skies rarely perfect still desire see place man n't fouled way \( mean 've trying forever like , concerning tesla 's idea banish night , wow ! \) n't watch commercial television , imagine disgusting beer , truck , ointment advertisements would seen high gotta make buck \( displaying products heaven \) , least consider reactions sky last beautiful refuge modern life open though , listing passage hst evening sky weekend tonight friday 8 25 p edt reach altitude 20 1 degrees local meridian baltimore vicinity 'll trying see suppose could called elitist supporting intrusion night sky complaining billboards proposed others may , think point desire beauty valid , even ca n't ever perfectly achieved regards , wm hathaway baltimore md
arco com \( john \) subject give 1 billion first year lo organization arco oil gas company lines 44 keithley apple com \( craig keithley \) writes , i'm certain single goal prize staying moon year wise useful prize first non government unmanned moon landing , another manned moon landing , yet another system extract consumables lunar soil , another reusable earth moon shuttle , forth find way build civilian moonbase infrastructure single goal might result bunch giving one person appeared win n't give , find something little scary half dozen people little moon shelters 'd like see much reward co operation competition lastly , ten fifteen years back seem recall english space magazine going discussion cheap recalled discussed things like much heat human body produced , much lunar material 'd need protection solar flares , etc unfortunately n't remember name magazine ring bell anyone \? craig keithley n't remember , n't recall , apple computer , inc got memory anything keithley apple com peter gabriel , third album \( 1980 \) love idea progressive prizes , assumption along u gummint could fund prizes would n't could n't thing eccentric could offer prize series prizes anyone know h ross perot bill gates personally \? john g
tekig5 pen tek com \( dennis \) subject planets still images orbit ether twist reply tekig5 pen tek com organization tektronix , inc , beaverton , lines 31 news saved 23 apr 93 22 22 40 gmt article 1993apr22 zeus calpoly edu dmcaloon tuba calpoly edu \( david mcaloon \) writes ether implodes 2 earth core , gravity ! ! ! paper describes heavenly stationary , ether sucking structures , observe orbital motion ! ! light years galaxies misnomer distance closer zero , time matter characteristics phase reality , outward layer onion \( defining edge 0 ether spin \) find , recommend studying history well , i'm working , getting little impatient far , 've made egyptian , chinese , greek cultures , far , insights n't seem perhaps 's appendix somewhere right , though , history kind fun lots good , varied interesting characters , come
pgf srl02 cacs usl edu \( phil g fraering \) subject vandalizing sky organization univ southwestern louisiana lines 16 jeff cook ftcollinsco ncr com \( jeff cook \) writes people primitive tribes middle nowhere look see budweiser flying across sky seen movie already one like come think , might send someone quest get rid dang thing jeff cook jeff cook ftcollinsco ncr com phil fraering seems like every day find sorts stuff pgf srl02 cacs usl edu like ancient mayans televison repo man
pgf srl02 cacs usl edu \( phil g fraering \) subject dreams degrees \( crazy \? imaginitive \? \) organization univ southwestern louisiana lines 19 higgins fnalf fnal gov \( bill higgins beam jockey \) writes like others involved sci space , mr adams shows symptoms fledgling member , think 's soaking fast young guy dreams , led get technical education follow bad wound assembly line job stamping identical day day \( tell 're identical \? got one star next scanners \? phil fraering seems like every day find sorts stuff pgf srl02 cacs usl edu like ancient mayans televison repo man
subject dc x 1 question husc8 harvard edu \( ken kobayashi \) keywords dc x nntp posting host husc8 harvard edu lines 17 've following discussions delta clipper program , one small question understand , dc x derived orbital vehicle \( dc 1 \) atmosphere sort sideways , completely nose first dc look symmetric every drawing 've seen \? would think asymmetric design , sort like wingless orbiter , may work better , since less shielding required top side anybody explain \? ken kobayashi husc harvard edu ken kobayashi husc harvard edu final frontier ibm ad
jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu \( josh hopkins \) subject dc trajectory simulation keywords ssto , delta clipper organization university illinois urbana lines 91 've three talks last month might interest 've transcribed notes since note taking ability means infallible , please assume factual errors mine permission granted copy without restriction note newbies delta clipper project geared towards producing single orbit , reusable launch vehicle dc x vehicle 1 3 scale vehicle designed test concepts ssto currently undergoing tests dc vehicle would full scale experimental vehicle capable reaching orbit yet funded april 6th , rocky nelson douglas gave talk entitled optimizing techniques advanced space missions university illinois mr nelson 's job involves using software simulate trajectories determine optimal trajectory within given requirements although directly involved delta clipper project , spent time recently , using software applications thus used dc project examples n't think details implicit trajectory simulation much interest readers \( hope n't fell asleep part \) , think many interested details gleaned examples first example given payload polar orbit main restriction acceleration must remain 3 gs assume driven passenger constraints rather hardware constraints , verify delta clipper version 8 engines 4 boosters 4 boosters , lower isp , shut mid flight thus , one critical question shut mr nelson showed following plot acceleration vs time 3 g ascii graphs go , actually fairly good big difference lines 2 g made curves concave data approximate , graph n't long 1 g 0 g 100 sec 400 sec mentioned , critical constraint g levels must kept 3 initially , eight engines started vehicle burns fuel accelleration increases gets close 3g , booster engines back however , quickly become inefficient low power , soon makes sense cut altogether causes dip accelleration 100 seconds eventually remaining engines bring g level back 3 hold cut entirely engine cutoff acutally occur orbit trajectory aimed altitude slightly higher desired last air drag slow vehicle slightly , thus lowering final altitude desired questions audience \( paraphrased \) q would make sense shut booster engines pairs , rather \? worth considering yet done simulation shutting four part problem given q final payload trajectory \? ca n't tell us read aviation leak also apparently good propulsion example , told use question anyone know security due sdio protecting national security md protecting interests \? second example reentry simulation , orbit pitch maneuver biggest constraint one aerodynamic heating , parameter trying maximize showed graphs heating using two different models , show similar , think supposed assume meant accurate end result polar orbit landing ksc , dc would 30 degrees would start 's reentry profile 60 degrees south latitude would asked landing maneuvers , n't know aspect flight profile josh hopkins jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu find way make one attributed hannibal
jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu \( josh hopkins \) subject rimsat , us russian joint venture organization university illinois urbana lines 121 've three talks last month might interest 've transcribed notes since note taking ability means infallible , please assume factual errors mine permission granted copy without restriction michael sternberg , cheif operations rimsat , invited speak informal lunch held campus university illinois organization campus deals arms control , disarmament international security rimsat considered appropriate topic company using russian launchers satellites think also helped daughter grad student international relations program concept behind rimsat apparently began matt neilson \( \? \) went tonga visit friend , somehow ended visiting king , happened big tv fan matt bought king satellite dish , king thought really nifty since tonga gnp 70 million , majesty asked way make money matt thought probably , suggestion , tonga applied 31 geosynchronous satellite slots n't entirely wall , unusual , seeing tonga tiny kingdom space program , 31 lot slots whole thing debated appropriate regulatory agency carl \( apparently respected space lawyer \) wrote several opinions supporting tonga 's case eventually tonga ended 7 slots , ranging 70 e 170 e \( slots designated longitude reside \) according sternberg , four , 130 e 142 e best world excellently placed communications hawaii pacific rim rimsat formed use slots officially formed tax tried years raise funds west , however , fill 7 slots western satellites launched western launchers would cost approximately 2 billion 's easy raise kind money eventually , hit upon idea using russian hardware began negotiating hardware mr sternberg describes operating moscow harsh terms n't think 'll visit long time besides significant lack creature , happy way people operate example everybody sell everything everyone show proper documents licenses indicate ones authority sell ever want eventually , rimsat arranged deal 6 satellites cost 150 million however , lost favor coup sternberg says basically bunch kgb operatives went trade shows picked lots brochures since power , deal new authorities described life moscow hotel rather unfavorable terms eventually , worked deal dec 4 , 1992 met , heads russian space program , sign deal insisted concessions signing according sternberg arranged new rules allow form another company exact thing rimsat next step meet builders hardware , npo applied mechanics npo pm use acronym organization located siberia \( ca n't figure spell town , need atlas \) built 1500 vehicles since dawn space age sternberg commented different hard workers , honest people team get things done , much like point comments audience agreed opinion \) sternberg lots good things say npo pm company apparently 100 million invest firm become 50 partners apparently costs russians 4 million build satellite would sell 50 million west want give specifications , 'll build satellite particular satellites rimsat using , costs run 378 , 000 per transponder year compares 810 , 000 u sell time 1 1 million compared 2 6 million u rimsat launch satellites get best prices , bought bulk rights twelve launches , need lift give address first launch scheduled october getting one used satellite russians , moved place tidbits sternberg says kind thing done entrepreneurs , big business big business like , except better paper , bathroom copier russian launches self insured promise replace failed launch within 9 months major investors rimsat include russell 20 20 , huge retirement fund organization , , big telecom business southeast asia , fund operated big names u aerospace says sort insurance policy really takes ex ussr saying worried partly n't used seeing russia anything italy gets new government every two weeks n't worry 're used predicted get used seeing really goes russia wo n't worry stability much part problem cooperative ventures problem transfering money central bank policy taking hard currency payments , putting 25 coffers replacing rest equivalent value rubles get around , rimsat pays hard currency austrian bank account npo pm pays contractors foreign currency contractors get government one big problems rimsat stonewalling western satellite industry however , intelsat recently bought three type satellites , rather reassuring biggest worry people russian satellites primitive technology shorter lifetime older \( horizon \) satellites lifetime 5 years , modern express satellites compare well western technology last 8 years much shorter 15 years western satellites , sternberg difference prices afford launch new ones addition , shorter lifetimes mean replace equipment newer technology able compete better older , date hardware josh hopkins jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu find way make one attributed hannibal
mike starburst umd edu \( michael f santangelo \) subject space station redesign , jsc alternative 4 organization university maryland , biological laboratory lines 47 nntp posting host starburst umd edu dbm0000 tm0006 lerc nasa gov \( david b mckissock \) writes text options b deleted option c single core launch station jsc lead option basically , take 23 ft diameter cylinder 's 92 ft long , slap 3 space shuttle main engines backside , put nose cone top , attached regular shuttle external tank regular set solid rocket motors , launch key features complete end end ground integration checkout 4 tangentially mounted fixed solar panels body mounted radiators \( adds protection orbital debris \) 2 centerline docking ports \( one end \) 7 berthing ports single pressurized volume , approximately 26 , 000 cubic feet \( twice volume skylab \) 7 floors , center passageway floors 10 kw housekeeping power \? graceful degradation failures \( 8 power channels , 4 thermal loops , dual environmental control life support system \) increased crew time utilization 1 micro g thru core module ha ! north america modular space station construction \) , reasoning construction occurs assembly line conditions , random weather problems site work home better quality control sounds like first point \) somehow strange attraction idea \( living modular home maybe altered mind \) thing scares part simply strapping 3 ssme 's launching vision something going terribly wrong launch resulting complete loss new modular space station \( peice would case staged orbit construction \) michael f santangelo internet mike cbl umd edu work dept head computer network systems mike umd edu home cbl \( island \) bitnet mike fwd mike cbl
phoenix princeton edu ! carlosn \( carlos g niederstrasser \) subject jemison star trek originator news nimaster nntp posting host princeton edu organization princeton university lines 33 article 1993apr20 1 aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes article fs7 ece cmu edu , loss fs7 ece cmu edu \( doug loss \) writes saw newspaper last night dr mae jemison , first black woman space \( 's physician chemical engineer flew endeavour last year \) appear transporter operator star trek next generation episode week may 31 's hardly space science , know , 's interesting doug loss interesting rigth wonder make mention astronaut credits think might help people connect future space present give idea must go space transporter operator ! \? ! \? better one important transport usually nameless ensign job guest appearance would expected visible meaningful role carlos g niederstrasser two things infinite , princeton planetary society universe human stupidity , i'm sure former einstein carlosn phoenix princeton edu space phoenix princeton edu ad astra per
cco caltech edu \( mark \) subject command loss timer \( galileo update 04 22 93 \) organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 23 nntp posting host sandman caltech edu keywords galileo , jpl prb access digex com \( pat \) writes galileo 's hga stuck hga left closed , galileo venus flyby hga pointed att sun , near venus , would cook foci elements question could n't galileo 's course designed hga ever sun point \? hga n't reflective wavelengths might cook focal elements , figure good scales problem antenna could exposed venus level sunlight , lest like wings melt \( think , well electronics , worried \) thus remain axis always pointed near sun , small sunshade tip antenna would shadow folded hga \( larger sunshade beneath antenna shielded spacecraft bus \) mark hot america 's first !
prb access digex com \( pat \) subject gamma ray bursters organization express access online communications , greenbelt md usa lines 16 nntp posting host access digex net evidence indicates gamma ray bursters far away \? given enormous power , wondering , quantum black holes something like fairly close \? would galactic ranges \? pet theory 's flying saucers entering hyperspace \) reason asking everyone assumes colliding stars spinning black holes , wondered mechanism could exist place closer pat
prb access digex com \( pat \) subject stephen hawking tours jpl organization express access online communications usa lines 23 distribution world nntp posting host access digex net keywords jpl article kelvin jpl nasa gov baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov \( ron baalke \) writes using model mars observer , spent several minutes describing project spacecraft 's features answer question hawking , chahine described proposed drag free satellite , confirmed point , 's concept chahine , met hawking caltech five bad n't give tour cgro data \? think 'd fascinated gamma ray bursters mind hawking might even propose mechanism 's drag free satellite \? coated wd 40 \? carries aluminum gold set grateful dead \? inquiring minds want know \? would mo carry features drag free \? thought aero braking possible mo experimental activity \? pat
wats scicom alphacdc com \( bruce watson \) subject boom ! whoosh organization alpha science computer network , denver , co lines 19 article gap caltech edu kwp wag caltech edu \( kevin w plaxco \) writes article scicom alphacdc com wats scicom alphacdc com \( bruce watson \) writes inflated substance longer needed since nothing cause balloon collapse inflatable structure could suffer multiple holes disastrous \( internal needed maintain spherical shape resistance \) caused large billboard pop like dime store balloon , 're wrong give time get references bruce watson \( wats scicom alphacdc com \)
prb access digex com \( pat \) subject level 5 \? organization express access online communications usa lines 11 nntp posting host access digex net subject shuttle software ever happened hypothesis shuttle flight software major factor loss 51 l wit , wind shear event , flight control software indicated series violent engine movements shocked set harmonic resonance leading overstress pat
cuhk hk subject gravity waves , predicting gravity wave quantization cosmic noise summary dong dong hear death knell relativity \? keywords space , curvature , nothing , tesla nntp posting host csc cuhk hk organization computer services centre , c u h k distribution world lines 36 article aud csn org et teal csn org \( eric h taylor \) writes et teal csn org \( eric h taylor \) subject gravity waves , predicting gravity wave quantization cosmic noise summary dong dong hear death knell relativity \? keywords space , curvature , nothing , tesla date sun , 28 mar 1993 20 18 04 gmt article well sf ca us metares well sf ca us \( tom van flandern \) writes kelvin seas virginia edu \( cameron bass \) writes bruce scott launchpad unc edu \( bruce scott \) writes existence undefined unless synonymous observable physics dong dong dong hear death knell string theory \? agree add dark matter quarks lot , purely theoretical constructs physics list , including omni present black holes bruce argue existence inferred theory alone \? original criticism , said curvature exist relative something non curved \? bruce replied undefined unless synonymous physics cannot observe four dimensions know moment n't see way defend statement existence phenomena simultaneously tom hold space cannot curved , simple reason properties properties speak dealing matter filling space say presence large bodies space becomes curved , equivalent stating something act upon nothing , one , refuse subscribe view tesla et tesla 100 years ahead time perhaps time comes
palmer cco caltech edu \( david palmer \) subject gamma ray bursters organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 53 nntp posting host alumni caltech edu prb access digex com \( pat \) writes evidence indicates gamma ray bursters far away \? given enormous power , wondering , quantum black holes something like fairly close \? would galactic ranges \? gamma ray bursts \( grbs \) seen coming equally directions however , given number bright ones , faint ones consistent equally dense far see contained within finite sphere \( sphere fuzzy edges \) us center \( measurements statistical , always hide sufficiently small number different type grb different origin data assuming one population grbs \) data indicates less 10 radius center distribution things earth exact center solar system \( scale oort cloud comets way beyond pluto \) universe cosmological theories , placing grbs throughout universe , require supernova type energies released milliseconds oort cloud models tend silly , even standards astrophysics grbs galactic \( e distributed milky way galaxy \) would expect either concentrated plane galaxy \( population \) , towards galactic center \( spherical population \) n't see , galactic , must halo least 250 , 000 light years radius , would probably start see grbs andromeda galaxy \( assuming similar halo \) comparison , earth 25 , 000 light years center galaxy pet theory 's flying saucers entering hyperspace \) n't concentrated known , n't see many coming zeta tau ceti reason asking everyone assumes colliding stars spinning black holes , wondered mechanism could exist place closer 130 grb different models refereed literature right , theorists sort unofficial moratorium new models new observational evidence comes david palmer palmer alumni caltech edu palmer tgrs gsfc nasa gov
pat z1 fidonet org \( pat \) subject army space lines 7 got army go signal corps intelligence interpretation go ada might get play rockets space look pretty far away dug mud next grunt protecting troops low flying objects good luck origin , 214 373 source \( 1 124 6507 \)
prb access digex com \( pat \) subject jemison star trek organization express access online communications usa lines 14 nntp posting host access digex net article 1993apr22 princeton edu phoenix princeton edu ! carlosn \( carlos g niederstrasser \) writes transporter operator ! \? ! \? better one important transport usually nameless ensign job guest appearance would expected visible meaningful role christian , cameo , besides maybe ca n't act \) pat
chpc utexas edu \( srinivas \) subject vandalizing sky organization center space research , university texas austin lines 15 article 1993apr23 1 rhea arc ab ca thacker rhea arc ab ca writes article c5t05k db6 research canon oz au , enzo research canon oz au \( enzo liguori \) writes light pollution observations \? \( read somewhere else might even visible day , leave alone night \) need depressed one lights n't day n't daytime light pollution thanks moments srinivas srinivas internet hermes chpc utexas edu p box , austin , tx , u tel \( 512 \) 471 bitnet
mach1 wlu ca \( robert u \) subject planets still images orbit ether twist x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 organization wilfrid laurier university lines 2 please get real life
cain fsu edu \( joe cain \) subject drag free satellites \( stephen hawking tours jpl \) keywords jpl organization florida state university geology dept lines 23 article access digex net prb access digex com \( pat \) writes article kelvin jpl nasa gov baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov \( ron baalke \) writes answer question hawking , chahine described proposed drag free satellite , confirmed point , 's concept 's drag free satellite \? coated wd 40 \? puzzled term concept drag free may already flown idea behind putting spacecraft would accurately respond motions earth 's gravity field ignore drag proposed many years ago involved ball floating sensors whose job signal little adjustment jets keep ball away ball would drag free condition respond gravity , whereas spacecraft would continuously adjusting position compensate drag joseph cain cain fsu edu cain fsu bitnet scri cain \( 904 \) 644 fax \( 904 \) 644
sfsuvax1 sfsu edu \( arthur chandler \) subject russian phobos mission organization california state university , sacramento lines 6 russian spacecraft \( \) ill phobos mission years ago send back images martian moon \? , anyone know 're housed ftp site \? thanks
landis stsci edu \( robert landis , , , \) subject space debris reply landis stsci edu organization space telescope science institute , baltimore md lines 14 another fish check richard works lockheed missiles , site nasa johnson nick johnson sciences friend , darren alexandria , va good luck r landis behind every general wife behind every hillary bill
landis stsci edu \( robert landis , , , \) subject soviet space book reply landis stsci edu organization space telescope science institute , baltimore md lines 9 blazes going wayne gang alabama \? also heard rumor aerospace ambassadors disappeared anyone else confirm \? \? rob landis stsci , baltimore , md
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject space station redesign , jsc alternative 4 organization u toronto zoology lines 10 article tm0006 lerc nasa gov dbm0000 tm0006 lerc nasa gov \( david b mckissock \) writes man tended capability \( griffin yet adopted non sexist language \) glad see griffin spending time engineering rather ritual purification language pity got stuck turkey rather one sensible options svr4 resembles high speed collision henry spencer u toronto zoology svr3 sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject space station redesign , jsc alternative 4 organization u toronto zoology lines 14 article cbl umd edu mike starburst umd edu \( michael f santangelo \) writes thing scares part simply strapping 3 ssme 's launching vision something going terribly wrong launch resulting complete loss new modular space station \( peice would case staged orbit construction \) n't make whole lot difference , actually , since n't building spares station hardware anyway \( dumb \) least one launch fail svr4 resembles high speed collision henry spencer u toronto zoology svr3 sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject level 5 \? organization u toronto zoology lines 18 article access digex net prb access digex com \( pat \) writes ever happened hypothesis shuttle flight software major factor loss 51 l wit , wind shear event , flight control software indicated series violent engine movements shocked set harmonic resonance leading overstress sounds like another ali 's 57 different real causes challenger accident far know , never slightest shred evidence harmonic resonance occurred induced maneuvering probably contribute opening leak path srb joint seems sealed smoke liftoff existing explanation related events seems account evidence adequately svr4 resembles high speed collision henry spencer u toronto zoology svr3 sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
ucscb ucsc edu \( david gordon \) subject planets still images orbit ether twist organization university california , santa cruz lines 22 distribution world nntp posting host ucscb ucsc edu 1993apr23 coe montana edu uphrrmk gemini oscs montana edu \( jack coyote \) writes sci astro , dmcaloon tuba calpoly edu \( david mcaloon \) writes nearly perfect parody needed random caps thanks chuckle \( loved bit relevance people starving somalia ! \) 've taken seriously , read name ! \( aloud \) well , thought must joke , n't get joke name read aloud \? david david david n't dave \( speaking \) thank , thank , 'll week enjoy buffet !
wpi wpi edu \( \) subject general information request organization worcester polytechnic institute , worcester , 01609 2280 lines 11 nntp posting host wpi wpi edu looking information space program includes nasa , shuttles , history , anything ! would like know anyone could suggest books , periodicals , even ftp sites novice interested space program todd wpi wpi edu
subject gamma ray bursters \? belgarath vax1 mankato msus edu organization mankato state university nntp posting host vax1 mankato msus edu lines 67 article att access digex net , prb access digex com \( pat \) writes evidence indicates gamma ray bursters far away \? given enormous power , wondering , quantum black holes something like fairly close \? would galactic ranges \? pet theory 's flying saucers entering hyperspace \) reason asking everyone assumes colliding stars spinning black holes , wondered mechanism could exist place closer pat well , lets see took class last fall , notes 'll try wing 's understand remember stellar evolution black holes neutron stars \( pulsars \) formed high mass stars , \( star \) 1 4m \( sun \) high mass stars live fast burn hard , taking 10 5 10 7 years going nova , supernova time , n't live long enough get galactic plane , \( assumed sources grb 's \) plane galaxy take catalog bursts recieved various satellites around solar system , \( pioneer venus one , either pion 10 11 , , course batse \) distribution tests catalog tests show , bursts isotropic distribution \( evenly spread radial direction \) , show signs , e clump one direction , unless sampling area inside disk galaxy , sampling universe cool , want figure hell caused things , suppose saying , well , may sampling inside disk well , necessarily remember , less interplanetary network burst detectors baseline goes beyond pluto \( pioneer 11 \) , able , detectors de sort difference angle satellite satellite 's analogy see plane overhead measure angle plane origin arbitrary coordinate system one friends mile away sees plane , measures angle zero point arbitrary system , two angles different , able position burst , maybe find source knowledge , one able throw halo , corona models n't work , also said , looking possible astrophysics bursts , \( short , high energy \) black holes , pulsars exhibit much type behavior case , said , stars seem bound disk galaxy , especially energetic sources look simulated model , bursts confined disk , sample large distances , say 750 mpc , definitely see towards direction , sources direction galactic center said , none characteristics think 's someone needs clarification , knows something n't know , means correct honor taking bursts class person done modeling different distributions , pretty much kicked around every possible distribution , outrageous sources colliding pulsars , black holes , pulsars slowing stuff like 's fun field complaints corrections belgarath vax1 mankato msus edu post jeremy
prb access digex com \( pat \) subject hst servicing mission scheduled 11 days organization express access online communications usa lines 23 distribution world nntp posting host access digex net keywords hst somebody mentioned boost hst mission , meaning weight tight margin mission said boost done \? grapple , hst , stow cargo bay , oms burn high altitude , hst , repair gyros , costar install , fix solar arrays , return earth \? guess bother usingthe shuttle reboost \? grapple , said fixes , bolt small liquid fueled thruster module hst , let make boost cheaper mass usingthe shuttle tug way , going need least 5 spacewalks , carry edo pallet , sit station even maybe solar array tilt motor fix pat
olivia la asu edu \( tom o'reilly \) subject russian phobos mission organization mars observer tes project , asu , tempe az distribution sci space lines 11 yes , phobos mission return useful data including images phobos best 've seen surface resolution 40 meters way , new book entitled mars \( et al , 1992 , university arizona press \) great chapter spacecraft exploration planet chapter co authored v space research institute moscow , includes details never published west n't know ftp sites images though tom o'reilly department geology arizona state university
c h wong bradford ac uk \( wong \) subject see launch space shuttle \? organization university bradford , uk lines 28 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 sorry asking question 's entirely based technical aspects space , could n't find answer faqs ! i'm currently uk , makes seeing space shuttle launch little difficult however , selected exchange student louisiana state uni august , absolutely determined get see space shuttle launch sometime year america hear 's bit long mailing list , someone tell get tickets get , please e mail ! thanks much patience \( anyone else wants know , tell 'll summarize save poor people pay links ! \) april month andrew wong mixing memory desire x e mail c h wong bradford ac uk eliot 1918
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject hst servicing mission scheduled 11 days organization u toronto zoology lines 35 article access digex net prb access digex com \( pat \) writes said boost done \? grapple , hst , stow cargo bay , oms burn high altitude , hst , repair gyros , costar install , fix solar arrays , return earth \? actually , reboost probably done last , fuel reserve evas \( case chase astronaut something like \) yes , 've got idea reboost done taking whole shuttle guess bother usingthe shuttle reboost \? grapple , said fixes , bolt small liquid fueled thruster module hst , let make boost somebody build thruster module 's shelf item trivial piece hardware , since include attitude control \( hst 's strong enough compensate things like thruster imbalance \) , guidance \( provision feed gyro data hst 's gyros external device \) , separation \( n't want left attached afterward , avoid possible contamination telescope lid opened \) also get worry whether lid going open reboost done hst inaccessible shuttle \( lid stays closed duration prevent mirror contamination thrusters like \) original plan use orbital maneuvering vehicle reboost planned sort small space tug , well suited precisely sort job unfortunately , costing lot develop list definitely known applications relatively short , got cancelled svr4 resembles high speed collision henry spencer u toronto zoology svr3 sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
subject planets still images orbit ether twist alien gen nz \( ross smith \) distribution world organization labs lines 27 article 1993apr22 mksol dseg ti com mccall mksol dseg ti com \( fred j mccall 575 3539 \) writes 1993apr22 zeus calpoly edu dmcaloon tuba calpoly edu \( david mcaloon \) writes ether implodes 2 earth core , gravity ! ! ! lack capitalized words , 'd swear mcelwaine changed name moved cal poly also find choice newsgroups perhaps someone tell guy 'sci n't stand \? 's truly frightening posts like originating ostensibly centers higher learning country small wonder rest world thinks 're nuts problems case n't gotten yet , david , n't think quite appropriate posting groups post real \? thought late april fool joke seemed bit top even mcelwaine etc standards \) ross smith \( , nz \) alien gen nz crawling planet 's face insects called human race lost time lost space \( \)
eder hsvaic boeing com \( dani eder \) subject vandalizing sky organization boeing ai center , huntsville , al lines 18 space billboards even easier implement writing messages moon , upon time group space activists belonged seattle considered goodyear orbit idea use large structure could carry array lights like goodyear placed low earth orbit high inclination , could eventually seen almost everyone earth collective disapproval space thing stopped us pursuing quite feasible economics , post n't want encourage idea \( want thing , go figure \) dani eder dani eder meridian investment company \( 205 \) 464 2697 \( w \) 232 7467 \( h \) rt 1 , box 188 2 , athens al 35611 location 34deg 37' n 86deg 43' w 100m alt
prb access digex com \( pat \) subject drag free satellites \( stephen hawking tours jpl \) organization express access online communications usa lines 8 nntp posting host access digex net keywords jpl joe , description sounds like one gravity probe spacecraft ideas pat
prb access digex com \( pat \) subject many read sci space \? organization express access online communications usa lines 9 nntp posting host access digex net article 1993apr22 mksol dseg ti com mccall mksol dseg ti com \( fred j mccall 575 3539 \) writes n't real name , either i'm actually elvis maybe lemur sometimes difficulty telling definitely lemur elvis could n't spell , listen songs pat
prb access digex com \( pat \) subject sunrise sunset times organization express access online communications usa lines 18 nntp posting host access digex net article news umbc edu rouben math umbc edu \( rouben rostamian \) writes length daylight varies time year experiment various choices latitudes tilt angles compare behavior function locations arctic circle want fun plug basic formulas lotus use spreadsheet auto calc , graphing functions produce bar graphs based latitude , tilt hours day light avg pat
bill xpresso uucp \( bill vance \) subject true globe , makes \? organization \( n \) organized 's important right lines 11 x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 known quite earth actually pear shaped globular spherical anyone make globe accurate actual shape , landmass configuration long lat lines etc \? thanks advance bill xpresso uucp \( bill vance \) , , wa rwing ! xpresso ! bill listen xpresso , listen \)
wales larrison ofa123 fidonet org subject commercial space news 22 x sender newtout 0 08 feb 23 1993 lines 666 commercial space news space technology investor number 22 number twenty two irregular series commercial space activities commentaries included thoughts developments sigh usual , 've gotten behind getting column written plead current dynamics space biz column put together lunch hour house night , data quickly build 's lot stuff going 've lot information happenings since last column , i'm going work keep one readable length fun ! contents 1 us commercial space sales flatten 1993 2 delta wins two key launch contracts 3 commercial remote sensing venture gets doc go ahead 4 investment firm calls space biz still good investment 5 ariane predicts dip launch demand 6 ntsb pegasus launch aborted abort 7 another pegasus competitor announced 8 georgia launch site dropped planning 9 capricornia launcher still proceeding 10 pacastro signs launch reservation swedish space corp 11 china taiwan joint satellite venture reported 12 south korea announces national move space technologies 13 space technology indexes march final notes articles 1 us commercial space sales flatten 1993 us department commerce projects us commercial space sales remain flat 1993 , current data showing 2 percent growth 1992 published us industrial outlook 1993 \( released january \) , revenues 1993 us space business currently projected 4 , 890 contrast previous years us commercial space sales shown double digits growth rates , year 's projected results driven us satellite manufacturing industry , sales projected drop 12 satellites worth 1 , 300 1992 7 satellites worth 670 1993 us industrial outlook also projects u commercial launchers faces flat demand coming year , predicting 1993 revenues increase 10 percent 450 , future sales adversely affected downward revision department defense launch plans flat launch revenues satellite deliveries , revenues fixed mobile satellite services projected increase 1 , 900 , primarily driven increased revenues broadcast cable tv networks similarly , remote sensing products sales projected increase 250 1993 \( 15 \) us commercial space revenues 1989 1990 1991 1992 \( r \) 1993 \( e \) commercial satellites 900 1 , 000 1 , 100 1 , 300 670 satellite services 750 800 1 , 200 1 , 500 1 , 900 fixed \( 700 \) \( 735 \) \( 1 , 115 \) \( 1 , 275 \) \( 1 , 520 \) mobile \( 50 \) \( 65 \) \( 85 \) \( 225 \) \( 380 \) satellite ground equip 790 860 1 , 350 1 , 400 1 , 560 mobile equipment \( 40 \) \( 85 \) \( 280 \) \( 352 \) \? \? \? commercial launches 150 570 380 450 450 remote sensing data services 125 155 190 215 250 private microgravity research lab 60 total annual revenues 2 , 715 3 , 385 4 , 220 4 , 815 4 , 890 \( r \) revised data 1992 \( e \) estimated data 1993 commentary first look us commercial space industry expected 1993 general , bad report bad news concentrated satellite manufacturing area , changes satellites worth 100 apiece substantially influence annual projection look forward several years , market sector retain strong sales us firms successful international market share satellite business furthermore , sales satellite ground equipment go next revision data , expected released mid year data mobile satellite ground equipment sales \( including items gps receivers portable satellite terminals \) appears missing january data set doc usually publishes listing space business indicators mid year , next revision commercial space revenues released expect revised revenues easily top 5 , 000 , mobile satellite ground equipment added back numbers , year show 10 overall market growth looking beyond year 's data , future markets look quite promising doc projects satellite service revenues could top 3 , 000 1995 new mobile satellite services direct broadcasting implemented planned , mobile satellite station sales expected continue growth 15 20 per year mid 1990 's numbers somewhat pessimistic near term market growth , agree trend substantial growth us commercial space sales least next 5 10 years \( due conservative assumptions market capture growth leo communications satellite direct broadcasting services n't believe current players yet born leo communications satellite market yet proven direct broadcasting market financial successes , sales growth explosive currently projected \) also noted year 's doc data first release show revenues privately funded microgravity research facilities 60 shown data primarily spacehab module , planned launch april space shuttle , also hidden numbers projected first sales comet orbital launch recovery experiment module 2 delta wins two key launch contracts mcdonnell douglas corporation , builds markets delta launch vehicle two important launch contracts motorola inc announced mid february selected delta launch satellites 66 satellite iridium leo communications constellation , mid april , mcdonnell douglas awarded usaf medium launch vehicle iii contract launch services contract motorola iridium constellation launch launch least 45 iridium satellites another 21 satellites contracted launched enterprise russian 3 proton vehicle launches 45 satellites planned delta launched 5 time , providing least 9 launches additional satellites iridium constellation , planned orbit spares , may also launched delta although details launch services contract reported negotiation , yet final usaf mlv contract also went mdc , bidding variant delta ii launcher contract initially worth 7 5 million , establishes set launch options 36 launches , encompassing launches 1996 2002 launches deploy next generation usaf 's global positioning system block navigation satellites , plus programs first option meet usaf launch options expected exercised year , usaf expected request launches 6 per year least 6 years contract usaf also request launch demand services mdc 1996 2002 time period , launch occur within 40 days request commentary two contracts fulfilled , provide excellent business base mdc 's delta launch program turn century combined , two contracts potential 45 launches , worth 2 , 200 mdc , sustaining core business base 300 400 year contracts international commercial payloads , well nasa medium elv class payloads , add business base keeping mdc viable commerical launch company however , noted risk elements contracts motorola 's iridium leo communications constellation yet received us federal communications commission license operation u , motorola lined financing financial partners iridium venture without financial backing iridium launches , hopefully , uncertainties settled year similarly , usaf mlv iii program target several congressional actions slowed production gps block satellites deleted funding mlv iii program favor usaf nls spacelifter program time , appears mlv iii contract executed , future funding mlv iii usaf commercial launch contracts part national space launch strategy reviews opinions expressed within administration congress propose cancellation elv upgrade programs \( including mlv programs \) favor proposed spacelifter program opinions may weight year 's budget deliberations , particularly dod funds difficult find shrinking us defense budget 3 commercial remote sensing venture gets doc go ahead first commercial license operate remote sensing satellite approved early february us department commerce 's office space commerce license granted worldview imaging corporation oakland , california build operate pair leo imaging satellites provide multi spectral images earth commentary little data released venture worldview doc , announcement operating construction license reported request worldview industry speculation identifies new venture star wars , using sdi type technology provide digital earth sensing data , heavily integrated digital gis databases remote sensing gis users probable customers service include exploration geologists , agricultural planners , urban planners noteworthy first commercial venture 1992 land remote sensing policy act act , passed last november , provides remote sensing data gathered private remote sensing craft may sold users differing prices prior act , remote sensing data satellites sold users prices , private remote sensing ventures would sell government set landsat data prices rumors several potential commercial remote sensing ventures working way system different stages development think large landsat spot satellite systems provide majority satellite remote sensing data market next decade contrast large , government sponsored remote sensing systems , smaller market ventures worldview others exploit market use innovative technology , believe , find margin predict may interesting ventures appearing next year 4 investment firm calls space biz still good investment wall street investment house morgan stanley thinks general dynamic 's space systems division could still , despite failed last 3 atlas launches recent analyst 's report morgan stanley said ever convinced company return atlas historical 95 plus success rate , become highly profitable , cash generating unit based upon discussions gd 's corporate management , morgan stanley projects atlas problems cleared unit could see 70 earnings per year 1995 100 per year 2000 based upon gd 's projection capturing 10 atlas launches per year world market commentary three failures row launch system hurt general dynamic 's space systems division since gd keep profitable core businesses , many market pundits speculating gd 's space business might next sold morgan stanley report indicates gd 's space systems division potential , despite current problems get act together sales projected 560 1993 , probably generate loss 25 gd capture projected share space launch market , managed clean reliability atlas launchers , could generate healthy profits sales demonstrate atlas centaur program back track , division continue show substantial losses response sell rumors , opinion , operation really good candidate takeover quick takeover , current set corporate divisional management would replaced another set outside firm gd ssd 's case , get division back track , management team concentrate hard technical problems atlas centaur , well selling atlas services would indicate another firm experience rocket launch operations could find talent house , able convince customers buy launch services optimally , firm would substantial liquid rocket experience , experience marketing space technology internationally well candidates might trw , rockwell , lockheed , martin , possibly mcdonnell douglas boeing firms cash flow problems \( mdc \) , substantial business contraction \( boeing mdc \) , involved launch firms \( lockheed \) , taken substantial debt \( martin \) coming 700 1500 purchase price division big chunk change company 5 ariane predicts dip launch demand arianespace , operator ariane launch system , projecting dip launch demand late 1990 's early february , arianespace released annual market survey , detailed projection space transportation market next decade short run , arianespace expects retain dominant position sustain majority share launch market 54 international commercial launches planned 1995 , ariane holds contracts 31 , general atlas vehicle holds 14 contracts , mcdonnell delta holds 7 , great wall 's long march vehicle holds 2 launch contracts three quarters future launch contracts ariane compete projected come communications satellites remaining 25 split weather , earth observation , scientific satellites future telecommunications demand growth predicted come asia pacific region arianespace expects current market individual satellite operators regional national groups continue , groups investing heavier satellites larger communications payloads carrying transponders arianespace predicts average mass telecommunications satellites increase 20 today 's average level , 3000 kg geo demand commercial launch services expected remain strong next three years , second half decade , arianespace predicts demand decrease arianespace bases prediction upon matching satellite transponder demand supply , particularly new data compression techniques appear could double triple transponder capacity using existing near term transponders one significant possible changes market identified arrival new launch vehicles , including russian launch systems arianespace predicts long term , investors purchasing launch services looking best trade launch service quality price , russian new launch services prove capabilities service quality , market penetration minimal commentary ariane releases market surveys annually , reported prior market survey past issue csn sti comparing two surveys , n't outstanding differences numbers notable change consideration new data compression techniques , reducing demand new physical transponders orbit note contrast predictions , demand space based communications transponders appears remain strong fiber optic lines making substantial established point point telecommunications markets , growing demand telecommunications services world wide point broadcast services prevented decrease space transponder demand cables provide higher capability service , established point established point b establish link necessary install cable points , improved network solutions , installing large network distributed links cost millions billions dollars broadcast services existing ground network structure , satellites still offer cost effective solution new services required new region , cheaper install small satellite link costing tens thousands dollars tie existing global satellite network allows rapid growth new satellite services , kept demand high replacement market growing well , since demand grows points serviced , becomes cost effective later install link handle increase traffic since telecommunications data transfer markets still growing rapidly , satellite market projections remain rosy satellites also getting longer orbital lifetimes current generation satellites getting guarantees 15 years orbit service , contrast 10 years service last generation 's satellites cut back launch demand , satellite owners replacement satellite launches longer intervals last note arianespace n't flag year , looks like space transportation market rather supplied existing launch systems near term annual commercial launch demand 15 20 medium sized satellites per year supply side , ariane capable launching dozen medium sized satellites year , delta capable 9 12 per year , atlas capable 6 12 , long march 4 8 , japan 's h vehicle 2 4 , russia 's proton capable 8 , systems soyuz another 10 20 medium launches per year 's lot capability small market expect competition intensify commercial launches 6 ntsb pegasus launch aborted abort 9 feb pegasus launch orbital sciences corporation spawned investigation apparent violation range safety rules valid abort order nasa range safety officer halt mission pegasus launched violation range safety rules last minutes pegasus launch , one two abort command receivers aboard pegasus failed failure typically launch , nasa range safety officer wallops island , va issued mission abort order minute scheduled pegasus launch somehow command osc launch team message lost communications channels , pegasus launched despite valid abort call fortunately , pegasus expected , abort command receiver needed incident spark investigation since valid abort order given agreed launch constraint rules , obeyed leading investigation national transportation safety board \( ntsb \) support nasa , osc , air force investigation marks first time ntsb taken lead incident involving space launch according ntsb , investigation take 6 months , primarily looking lines authority , communications links safety procedures used launch commentary first time ntsb led investigation space launch leadership requested department commerce 's office commercial space transportation , licensed commercial launch time writing column , initial investigations concluded , results starting leak trade press apparently , 3 four different communications channels use test abort destruct receiver stopped responding , nasa test director range controller mission control room wallops island gave abort orders minute launch according mission rules , stopped launch somehow , osc test conductor ordered abort reversed , nasa communicator net relayed order b 52 carrying pegasus 22 seconds launch differing explainations exactly happened proposed best set clear lines communications clear definition responsibilities mission control team , understanding mission rules established launch see commercial launches , procedural issues going crop resolved case interesting first time ntsb called investigate commercial launch problem \( commercial aircraft problems \) think problem turn primarily problems procedures communications , cleared issuance guidelines launch communications set specific lines authority 7 another pegasus competitor announced tsniimach enterprise russia announced marketing new small space launch system , based upon converted icbm components two versions launcher marketed winged vehicle launched like osc pegasus , , launched mobile ground transporter projected deliver 900 kg 200 km circular orbit 580 kg 800 km circular orbit , capable 430 kg 200 km orbits 225 kg 800 km also proposed used launch systems leo data relay system called tsniimach enterprise described ex military establishment , focusing aerodynamics thermal protection spacecraft participated development shuttle system , located near npo energia facility kaliningrad , outside moscow commentary 's little released information new venture suspicion another russian enterprise looking hard currency trying upon house knowledge ex soviet launch systems adds list numerous commercial space announced ex soviet union one 's little different offering variants ex soviet , ca n't identify key customers targeted substantial financial backing 8 georgia launch site dropped planning late january , georgia tech research institute released results preliminary study feasibility commercial rocket launching site camden county , georgia old missile test launching site atlantic coast preliminary study recommended site pursued commercial launch site , stating site feasible due projected low investment returns , plus environmental geographic considerations however , report say site might ideal aerospace uses , recommended potential uses commentary put nails coffin commercial launch site sites still proceeding commercial launch site development plans , found without key customer act anchor tenant , substantial infrastructure put , expected returns low justify cost development might point key judging feasibility commercial launch site include identified key customer provide core usage sufficient recover setup costs \? market advantage using site \? existing infrastructure used modified site \? financing found low enough cost support investment \? commercial launch site ventures including , poker flat , cape york , white sands , alabama shore platform , hawaii , vandenberg also judged criteria opinion , ventures flying hope speculation , sound financial grounds 9 capricornia launcher still proceeding one last official acts , former president bush authorized space technology transfer several joint space ventures us firms one proposed use us technology spain build small booster regulatory impediment removed , 3 stage capricornia launch vehicle start development later year , planning first launch 1995 96 time period capricornia described small 3 stage solid booster designed put 250 500 kg leo several launch sites examined system , including 2 peninsula 1 islands originated spain , project reports 30 development funding , use technology argentina 's condor launch vehicle well us commentary several firms identified market opportunity providing small launcher european market small payloads european firms organizations currently use either ariane piggyback launches us italian scout launcher however , ariane piggyback opportunities limited , scout program phased \( accompanied italian government space industry regarding follow system \) left apparent niche new european small launch system surprisingly enough , esa supported development system within current space funding structure studies performed british aerospace , , deutsche aerospace , italian organizations , exception swedish pacastro system \( reported \) , able find european development work even rumor funding hardware also interest linking capricornia argentinian condor launcher interesting rumors argentina past year space launcher program funded military junta ruled country 1970 's early 1980 's known feb 1992 , argentinian air force formally transferred control condor 2 missile program new civilian argentinian national space agency \( de \) condor 2 program described originating 1983 , expanding upon smaller condor 1 rocket program collaboration egypt support german firms condor 2 also reportedly funded indirectly iraq mid 1980 's fairly large solid rocket motors built tested , development suitable guidance package propulsion system noted planning launch first scientific satellite late 1994 us 9 , 181 kg , sac b satellite study earth 's upper atmosphere includes cooperative experiments italy us launch vehicle yet selected , osc 's pegasus russian air launched rocket reported strong contenders contract 10 pacastro signs launch reservation swedish space corp pacastro , small launch firm herndon , virginia announced late february received 6 launch reservation contract swedish space corp launch satellite pacastro 's pa 2 launch vehicle performed part polar satellite service \( pss \) , joint norwegian space center swedish space corp program upgrade rocket range norway offering small satellite launches polar regions according pacastro , pss also performing 8 upgrade launch facilities , including new integration facility fully enclosed vertical assembly building small launch vehicles like pacastro pa 2 pacastro chosen main alternative rocket supplier small satellite launch service offered pss date launch swedish satellite specified commentary pacastro trying line customers funding launch vehicle time pa 2 small , two stage rocket fueled rp 1 liquid oxygen pacastro 's literature , engines designed pa series rockets built shelf components based upon lunar module descent engines built trw , capable putting 225 kg satellite 750 km circular polar orbit pacastro trying arrange construction financing first three pa 2 vehicles , first launch planned 1995 , 2 orbital launches planned 1996 records show pacastro hired trw provide marketing support systems design , primary engineering done , small satellite builder closely associated pacastro \( headquartered building \) swedish space corporation would supply engineering , launch operations , vehicle subsystems , marketing support corp tokyo , first round investor sits board directors pacastro gotten first round financial package least 550 k \( sources place high 1 \) , searching year additional 20 30 needed design , build launch first set vehicles launch reservation ssc possibly used help bring investors board , estimate , need much single 6 sale put venture real hardware 11 china taiwan joint satellite venture reported early march , reported joint satellite communications venture taiwanese mainland chinese works reported taipei press , china development corp \( cdc \) , headquartered links ruling nationalist party , planning set joint venture hong kong china great wall industry corp objective launching regional communications satellite cdc would cover 10 satellite system cost \( us 10 \) exchange rights 10 satellite 's communications channels commentary announcement came close heels release taiwanese plans space development \( released mid january \) plans , national space program office taiwan launch 3 satellites , starting 1 , 400 kg scientific spacecraft , planned launch 1997 two additional satellites planned , communications satellites trw helping taiwan plan program , budgeted 13 6 b \( us 530 \) 2006 n't able establish relationship venture , might connection taiwan financing pursue several ventures , current taiwanese telecommunications market might support two separate ventures reported name chinese system 2 , n't thinks relationship existing hong kong based program involving chinese , hong kong , asian investors , using organizational model obvious advantages pursuing venture could provide excellent first hand experience taiwan low cost , used later satellite ventures internal political issues taiwanese chinese ventures , putting joint venture hong kong intermediary corporation might allow proceed case , east asian satellite market lighting substantially growth projected space services revenues another indicator add list 12 south korea announces national move space technologies south korea 's trade , industry resources ministry recently announced plans invest us 22 b research development another us 17 b manufacturing research facilities advanced aerospace technologies space technologies specifically targeted part program , beginning manufacture launch advanced multi purpose satellite 1997 objective investment raise south korea 's aerospace technology level world 's top 10 countries 2000 commentary south korea quietly working develop national aerospace industry , specifically including space activities i'm noting flag potential new players coming commercial space market part national effort , 2 national telecommunications satellites korea telecom launched april oct 1995 delta designated 1 2 , platforms provide television telephone service throughout korean peninsula , southwestern japan portions china north korea south korea launched first small satellite piggyback ariane aug 1992 , called 1 \( star \) costing us 8 8 2 planned piggyback launch october year , ariane , entirely made korea 3 , projected 1995 launch , environment monitoring micro satellite satellite may precursor series small earth observation satellites , \( korean earth observation system \) project , submitted approval south korean government , would use two three 300 kg spacecraft equipped optical microwave sensors south korean press reports claim also parallel military effort establish capabilities building launching small military satellites 2001 supposedly government panel established oversee effort , funded us 500 1993 2001 , anticipation expected u intelligence gathering systems korean peninsula conjunction reported efforts , south korean also pursuing production work either sets existing aerospace technology contracts \( example , mcdonnell douglas production delta parts south korean firms part launch contracts \) , production consumer space items \( among products , south korea exports satellite receiver television setups japan , samsung announced production osc 's user terminals \) looks like aggressive push space technologies considering east asia currently fastest growing sector commercial space services \( primarily telecommunications \) , south korean push space technologies may change composition commercial space market next decade 13 space technology indexes march announced last csn sti , issue give results stock indexes regarding space stocks investments table summarizes results end march space technology index quite bit better market whole , represented p 500 index since 90 values included index us firms , represents general increase market value space related firms increase first quarter 1992 promising sign , although future months may reverse trend commercial space technology index also done quite well , pure play portfolio consisting stocks firms pure plays space technologies also surpassed results 1993 'll keep eye index results march beginning beginning 1 jan 93 1992 1993 31 mar 1993 p 500 416 436 \( 4 7 \) 452 \( 3 7 \) space tech index 267 304 \( 13 6 \) 373 \( 22 7 \) space tech index 167 194 \( 16 3 \) 222 \( 14 2 \) space tech pure plays 147 169 \( 15 4 \) 197 \( 16 2 \) final notes \? column 's already full \? still bunches commercial space developments report said start , column 's lot interesting happenings 'll put next issue looking ahead , 've got several articles works new happenings iridium leo communications satellite market , news international launchers appearing \( disappearing \) market , new international commercial space ventures , interesting developments always , hope folks find stuff useful interesting comments welcome wales larrison space technology investor p box seal beach , ca
wales larrison ofa123 fidonet org subject space advertising \( 2 2 \) x sender newtout 0 08 feb 23 1993 lines 82 two developments brought type activities back forefront 1993 first , february , russians deployed 20 reflector progress vehicle departed mir space station banner reflector blank , npo energia active reporting future banner available advertisers , could use space based video logo ad printed banner tv commercial , filmed mir second development , space marketing inc , company responsible space conestoga booster comet spacecraft , pushing environmental billboard laid smi chief engineer dr ron humble university colorado space laboratory preston carter lawrence livermore national laboratory , environmental billboard large inflatable outer support structure meters advertising carried mylar reflective area , deployed inflatable help sell concept , spacecraft responsible maintaining billboard orbit carry ozone reading sensors continuously monitor condition earth 's delicate protective ozone layer , according mike lawson , head smi furthermore , inflatable billboard reached minimum exposure 30 days released enter earth 's atmosphere according imi , material burns , release ozone building components literally ozone layer remaining spacecraft monitor atmosphere another year , , enters burns adds ozone supply would cheap advertisement , costing least several millions dollars \( exact costs available \) smi estimates market exposure would 3 5x people watched superbowl , 30 second advertising cost 600 , 000 since smi located atlanta , georgia , promoted available time opening 1996 summer olympics atlanta back brian 's questions anyone details wn news blip \? serious project \? wild idea stage real funding \? see serious get 15 20 \( estimate 5 10 development costs flight unit , plus 10 15 launch \) , 's probably real claiming tailor orbit specific locations specific times optimum advertising impact probably ca n't piggy back upon someone else 's planned launch buy dedicated launch 's 10 15 cost need raise , right probably legal challenges well note one potential legal challenge smi use launch vehicle advertising already n't think legal challenges would win \( yes , amateur astronomer , , n't really like idea additional light pollution , know prohibition \) , legal challenges court fights would probably remove positive aspects advertising imagine several ways make advertisers look like would change positive market exposure negative market exposure , space advertising advantage \( would spend 15 look like idiot \? \) \( light pollution might bad 's low enough orbit , relies upon reflected light , would visible short time local dusk dawn maximum market exposure , want visible dusk minimizing impact astronomy , since 's time worse seeing due day night thermal might still problem , perhaps ways mitigate \) real funding none identify 60 expressions interest made conestoga advertising opportunity , included curious folks 500 , 000 commitment n't heard serious funding , i'm sure shopping venture around looking money order flesh concept confident firm paying customers time anybody wants cross post sci astro , please guest n't posting privileges area \( least n't think \) wales larrison space technology investor maximus 2 01wb
wales larrison ofa123 fidonet org subject space advertising \( 1 2 \) x sender newtout 0 08 feb 23 1993 lines 81 brian yamauchi asks regarding orbital billboards anyone details wn news blip \? serious project \? wild idea stage real funding \? well , collecting data next edition commercial space news space technology investor summarize space advertising first , advertising space vehicles new common practice put cooperating organization 's logos space launch vehicle example , latest gps launcher \( prominent \) logos side mcdonnell douglas \( delta launcher \) rockwell international \( built gps satellite \) usaf \( paid satellite launch \) , gps navstar program office considered paid advertising rather public relations , since restrictions organizations involved launch could put logos side , money exchanged however , putting high logo side launch vehicle facing cameras advertising much public relations , opinion way , note dc x test vehicle rather prominent mcdonnell douglas sdio logos side several studies looking revenue potentials use space vehicles advertising , placing large advertising signs orbit shuttle , example , know several serious studies early mid 1980 's looked putting logos external tank , sides payload bay ventures would different public relations , logos displays would restricted firms participating flight , would involve payment sums right fly logos prominent organization \( example , painting et look like pepsi , putting logo inside payload bay cameras would scan past \) launch vehicles first paid advertising done soviet launcher 1990 , several non involved foreign organizations allowed pay put logos proton launch \( italian shoe company one first advertisers , remember \) similarly , soviet mir made paid advertisement last olympic games , shown banners items participating firms organizations mars candy bars , example , got plug orbit sponsor launch british visiting mir us firms starting put paid advertisements launch vehicles upcoming conestoga launch \( june \) putting comet payload capsule orbit paid advertisements side , arnold schwarzenegger 's upcoming movie last action hero besides usual logos participating organizations , columbia pictures paid 500 , 000 put ads main fuselage mission 's conestoga rocket , booster rockets , comet payload , orbit earth one month concept advertising display published space news magazine couple months ago \( side note robert , advertising executive , talking suing nasa charges nasa idea created space agency 1981 form corporate advertising nasa spacecraft way get funding space program contends selling advertising space upcoming comet , nasa violated agreement would use idea without exclusive representative nasa receiving compensation disputed , since launch commercial launch nasa receiving none advertising revenues , funding comet program coming nasa \) orbital billboards orbital billboards science fiction time arthur c clarke wrote one example , robert heinlein described another man sold moon several different potential projects developed , although none implemented , real prior 1993 ii project , would placed large inflatable orbit celebrate french republic 's bi \( cont \) maximus 2 01wb
henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) subject true globe , makes \? organization u toronto zoology lines 12 article bill xpresso uucp bill xpresso uucp \( bill vance \) writes known quite earth actually pear shaped globular spherical anyone make globe accurate actual shape , landmass configuration long lat lines etc \? n't think 're going able see differences sphere unless greatly exaggerated even equatorial bulge 1 part 300 'd never notice error globe deviations spherical shape much smaller svr4 resembles high speed collision henry spencer u toronto zoology svr3 sunos dick dunn henry zoo toronto edu utzoo ! henry
nsmca aurora alaska edu subject space race ideas moon base cheap article aurora 1993apr25 1 organization university alaska fairbanks lines 28 nntp posting host acad3 alaska edu idea efficient moon habitat also idea get people moon prize also idea rescue someone dying moon maybe area see , help something happens liek idea one prize first moon landing return , non governmental body also idea moon habitat race know need somthing get people involved eccentric would nice see old ross feels would great promotional thing way show care people try broach subject moonbase cheap good idea nasa friends seem take much time give us expensive stuff late work \( hubble \) basically difference peice junk multi piece junk know junk michael adams , nsmca acad3 alaska edu i'm high , jacked
nsmca aurora alaska edu subject article aurora 1993apr25 1 organization university alaska fairbanks lines 14 nntp posting host acad3 alaska edu like option c new space station design needs work , simple elegant time someone got simple construction versus overly complex basically strap rockets nose cone habitat go might idea moon mars base captain \( sp \) need \( reference russian heavy lifter , think \) michael adams , nsmca acad3 alaska edu i'm high , jacked
nsmca aurora alaska edu subject jemison star trek \( better ideas \) article aurora 1993apr25 1 organization university alaska fairbanks lines 31 nntp posting host acad3 alaska edu article oai access digex net , prb access digex com \( pat \) writes article 1993apr22 princeton edu phoenix princeton edu ! carlosn \( carlos g niederstrasser \) writes transporter operator ! \? ! \? better one important transport usually nameless ensign job guest appearance would expected visible meaningful role christian , cameo , besides maybe ca n't act \) pat better idea use nasa shuttle astronauts crew found lost space accident worm hole space time glitch maybe age jemison years \( makeup \) failed shuttle mission got lost heh late , way shuttle problems media , anything happen imagine astronaut crew member find 24th century object interest alien civilization , maybe rescued helped st enterprise know okay , could better michael adams , nsmca acad3 alaska edu i'm high , jacked
prb access digex com \( pat \) subject jemison star trek \( better ideas \) organization express access online communications usa lines 11 nntp posting host access digex net article 1993apr25 1 aurora alaska edu nsmca aurora alaska edu writes better idea use nasa shuttle astronauts crew found lost space accident worm hole space time glitch maybe age jemison years \( makeup \) failed shuttle mission got lost course mission able launch \)
steinly topaz ucsc edu \( steinn sigurdsson \) subject gamma ray bursters organization lick observatory uco lines 56 nntp posting host topaz ucsc edu reply prb access digex com 's message 23 apr 1993 23 58 19 0400 article att access digex net prb access digex com \( pat \) writes evidence indicates gamma ray bursters far away \? distribution isotropic intensity distribution , crudely speaking , indicates 're seeing edge distribution given enormous power , wondering , quantum black holes something like fairly close \? would galactic ranges \? , good old days gro data , thought gamma bursters neutron stars galaxy , expected gro would confirm either showing local population \( within hundred light years \) galactic halo \( mechanism known several plausible ones existed \) \( also fair noted brightest burster probably lmc , suggesting theorists might wrong back \) sun center galaxy halo population show \( local disk population ruled completely stage \) avoid push halo , energy gets large , mechanism getting ns far becomes questionable , start see example andromeda 's bursters data consistent either oort cloud distribution \( \) one think plausible source right spectrum , cosmological distances \( hence \) edge edge universe \) cosmological distances need high energy \( detect \) compact source \( spectrum \) , ergo neutron star colliding another neutron star black hole even getting spectrum hard , conceivable know anything physics level , bursters due quantum black holes cosmic strings , wrong spectrum one thing situation complicated recent claims two classes sources \) colliding ns 'd actually probably fit relatively easily ns ns ns bh collision scenarios respectively pet theory 's flying saucers entering hyperspace \) reason asking everyone assumes colliding stars spinning black holes , wondered mechanism could exist place closer think one , remember invite stockholm steinn sigurdsson lick observatory steinly lick ucsc edu standard disclaimer laws gravity , strict 're bending benefit b b 1988
tom igc apc org subject computer cult nf id n cdp 000 nf cdp uucp ! tom apr 24 09 26 00 1993 lines 59 tom subject computer cult scott fri apr 23 16 31 21 1993 received igc apc org \( 4 1 revision 1 77 \) id fri , 23 apr 93 16 31 09 pdt date fri , 23 apr 93 16 31 09 pdt message id igc apc org scott scott sender scott subject next stand \? status r redwood city , ca \( api \) tense stand entered third week today authorities reported progress negotiations charismatic cult leader steve jobs negotiators uncertain situation inside compound , reports suggest half hundreds followers inside terminated others claim staying free , persuasive manner makes hard confirm conversations authorities , jobs given conflicting information heavily prepared group war industry times , claimed hardware blow anything else away , recently claims stopped manufacturing agents atf \( apple taligent forces \) believe group equipped serious hardware , including 486 caliber pieces possibly canon equipment siege attracted variety spectators , curious cultists offered negotiations , including young man identify bill claims ms former members cult , recently , speak former lives , including forced work 20 hour days , subsisting jolt frequent lectures indoctrinated theory interpersonal computing rejects traditional roles late night drive taking toll federal loud rock roll , mostly talking heads , throughout night fear jobs fulfill apocalyptic prophecies , worry reinforced loudspeakers carry speeches typically beginning chilling want welcome world' roland j iii networking systems systems programmer redwood hall \( 415 \) 723 distributed computing group stanford , ca 94305 stanford university stanford edu
apryan vax1 tcd ie subject order moore 's book restore great telescope lines 41 nntp posting host vax1 tcd ie organization trinity college dublin lines 41 several people availability book great 72 reflector built castle , ireland remained largest world start 20th century astronomy castle written patrick moore sits committee going restore telescope \( remains public display year round massive support walls , 60 foot long tube , bits pieces \) book history one man , third earl , pulled impressive technical achievement , perhaps ever , history telescope , discoveries made instrument patrick moore donating proceeds book 's sale help restore telescope astronomy ireland making book available world wide mail order 's fascinating read ordering copy bring day look little bit nearer ordering information astronomy castle dr patrick moore , xii , , x price u us 4 95 us 2 95 post packing \( add 3 50 airmail \) u k \( pounds sterling \) 3 50 1 50 post packing europe \( pounds sterling \) 3 50 2 00 post packing rest world per u funds payable us payment make payments astronomy ireland credit card mastercard visa access accepted email snail mail give card number , name address , expiration date , total amount payments otherwise must money order bank draft send permanent address p box 2888 , dublin 1 , ireland also subscribe astronomy space time see tony ryan , astronomy space , new international magazine , available astronomy ireland , p box 2888 , dublin 1 , ireland 6 issues \( one year sub \) uk 10 00 pounds , us 20 surface \( add us 8 airmail \) access visa mastercard accepted \( give number , expiration date , name address \) \( world's largest astro soc per capita unless know better \? 0 033 \) tel 0891 88 1950 \( uk n ireland \) 1550 111 442 \( eire \) cost 48p per min
saber si pt \( rui sousa \) subject potential world bearing stars \? reply dan visix com 's message mon , 12 apr 1993 19 52 23 gmt lines 17 organization saber de , article visix com dan visix com \( daniel \) writes i'm fact finding mission , trying find exists list potentially world bearing stars within 100 light years sun anyone currently working sort thing \? thanks dan principle , star resembling sun \( mass , luminosity \) might planets located suitable orbit several within 100 ly sun single stars , double multiple systems might troublesome 's list located ames arc nasa gov somewhere pub space think called stars dat way , kind project , may know \? rui infinity hand ! rui sousa big enough , grab ! saber si pt opinions expressed strictly
prb access digex com \( pat \) subject vandalizing sky organization express access online communications usa lines 20 nntp posting host access digex net article c5y4t7 9w3 news cso uiuc edu gfk39017 uxa cso uiuc edu \( george f krumins \) writes typical rights minority extinguished wants majority , matter ridiculous wants might george 's called democracy majority rules sorry n't like , suggest modify constitution include constitutional right dark skies theory government majority rules , except nature fundamental civil rights really annoyed , get legislation create dark sky zone , light emissions protected zone kind like national radio quiet zone know \? near teh radio telescope observatory west virginia , 90 \? \? \? \? \? \? mile zone theoretically prevent running light ac motors , like air conditioners practice , use mostly control large radio users pat
jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu \( josh hopkins \) subject space advertising \( 2 2 \) organization university illinois urbana lines 24 wales larrison ofa123 fidonet org writes environmental billboard large inflatable outer support structure meters advertising carried mylar reflective area , deployed inflatable help sell concept , spacecraft responsible maintaining billboard orbit carry ozone reading sensors continuously monitor condition earth 's delicate protective ozone layer , according mike lawson , head smi furthermore , inflatable billboard reached minimum exposure 30 days released enter earth 's atmosphere according imi , material burns , release ozone building components literally ozone layer assume guy studied advertising chemistry \? granted probably great advertising , n't sound practical josh hopkins jbh55289 uxa cso uiuc edu find way make one attributed hannibal
nsmca aurora alaska edu subject space station redesign \( \) option c article aurora 1993apr25 1 organization university alaska fairbanks lines 22 nntp posting host acad3 alaska edu article 1993apr25 1 aurora alaska edu , nsmca aurora alaska edu writes like option c new space station design needs work , simple elegant time someone got simple construction versus overly complex basically strap rockets nose cone habitat go might idea moon mars base captain \( sp \) need \( reference russian heavy lifter , think \) michael adams , nsmca acad3 alaska edu i'm high , jacked report , got subject messed
gene theporch raider net \( gene wright \) subject nasa special publications voyager mission \? organization macinteresteds nashville , tn lines 12 two books , nasa special publications , voyager missions one titled voyages jupiter voyage saturn excellent books put together encounters planet question nasa ever put together similar book either uranus encounter neptune \? , sp number obtained \? , n't \? gene theporch raider net \( gene wright \) theporch raider net 615 297 7951 macinteresteds nashville
bon lte e technik uni erlangen de \( uwe \) subject sunrise sunset times organization lte , university erlangen , germany distribution world nntp posting host e technik uni erlangen de lines 15 article 1993apr21 cbis ece drexel edu , jpw cbis ece drexel edu \( joseph wetstein \) asked hello looking program \( algorithm \) used compute sunrise sunset times would appreciate advice joe wetstein jpw coe drexel edu compute , many astronomical things , go get \( x \) written elwood c downey e g export lcs mit edu uwe bon lte e technik uni erlangen de
nicho vnet ibm com \( greg stewart nicholls \) subject vandalizing sky reply nicho vnet ibm com disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , ibm news software ureply 3 1 x x nicho vnet ibm com c5y4t7 9w3 news cso uiuc edu lines 9 c5y4t7 9w3 news cso uiuc edu george f krumins writes typical rights minority extinguished wants majority , matter ridiculous wants might umm , perhaps could explain 'rights' talking greg nicholls vidi nicho vnet ibm com vici nicho olympus demon co uk veni
mark prado p2 f349 n109 z1 permanet org \( mark prado \) subject conference manned lunar exploration may 7 crystal city lines 25 reply address mark prado permanet org higgins fnalf fnal gov \( bill higgins beam jockey \) article 1993apr19 aio jsc nasa gov , daviss sweetpea jsc nasa gov \( f davis \) writes aw st brief blurb manned lunar exploration confernce may 7th crystal city virginia , auspices aiaa thanks typing , steven hope decide go , pat net use eyes ears plan go 's 30 minutes away home report \( perspective \) anyone else sci space going \? , send netmail maybe plan cross paths briefly 'll maintain list 's going mark prado permanet org origin send bill clinton permanet org \( 1 109 349 2 \)
jhuapl edu \( hoffman , eric j \) subject drag free satellites organization utexas mail news gateway lines 37 nntp posting host cs utexas edu article access digex net prb access digex com \( pat \) writes article kelvin jpl nasa gov baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov \( ron baalke \) writes answer question hawking , chahine described proposed drag free satellite , confirmed point , 's concept 's drag free satellite \? coated wd 40 \? triad , first drag free satellite , designed built johns hopkins applied physics laboratory launched 2 sept 1972 satellite three sections separated two booms central section housed disturbance compensation system , consisted proof mass special non magnetic alloy housed within spherical cavity proof mass flew true gravitational orbit , free drag radiation pressure teflon kept body satellite centered around proof mass , thereby flying entire satellite drag free triad one apl designed navy navigation satellites 2nd generation operational navigation satellites flying today \( nova \) use single axis version triad also sixth apl satellite powered rtg \( apl flew first nuclear power supply space , 1961 \) info triad , , etc found spacecraft design innovations apl space department , johns hopkins apl technical digest , vol 13 , 1 \( 1992 \) eric hoffman
organization queen 's university kingston graydon saundrsg qucdn queensu ca subject gamma ray bursters \? 1993apr24 1 vax1 mankato msus edu lines 8 things detected space , anyone looked possible problems detectors \? , mechanism \( cosmic rays , whatever \) could cause think seeing one things \? graydon
stephens geod emr ca \( dave stephenson \) subject space advertising \( 2 2 \) nntp posting host ngis geod emr ca organization dept energy , mines , resources , ottawa lines 15 sf advertising space romantic episode mead 's big ball wax lovers watching constellation pepsi cola rising horizon noting slipped cause strike inspiration article orbiting formation space mirrors published spaceflight 1986 reviews said seems technically feasible , could commercially viable aesthetically desirable \? days aesthetics count ones count ! dave stephenson geological survey canada ottawa , ontario , canada internet stephens geod emr ca
quads uchicago edu \( 's enrico ! \) subject gamma ray bursters \? reply midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 36 graydon saundrsg qucdn queensu ca things detected space , anyone looked possible problems detectors \? , mechanism \( cosmic rays , whatever \) could cause think seeing one things \? graydon would explain widely separated detectors , ulysses pvo et al , would see burst time \( \) fact , fore batse , widely separated interplanetary network sure way locate random burst one detector , one cannot locate burst \( except say 's somewhere field view \) two detectors , one use time burst seen detector narrow location thin sky three detectors , one gets intersecting , giving two possible locations one locations impossible \( , say , earth blocked part sky \) , voila , error box batse , 8 detectors , location determination , within 3 degrees \( would someone gsfc , like david , like comment current state location determination \? \) sightings detectors helps drive uncertainty touch something n't mean , though believe \( reference somewhere \) absorption like features seen fraction grbs actually caused detector would mean , nasty god , though , would nai crystal act like 10 12 gauss neutron star getting far peter oddjob uchicago edu
wingert vnet ibm com \( bret wingert \) subject level 5 \? organization ibm , federal systems co software services disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , ibm news software ureply 3 1 1993apr23 1 fnalf fnal gov lines 29 1993apr23 1 fnalf fnal gov bill higgins beam jockey writes article 246 almaden ibm com , wingert vnet ibm com \( bret wingert \) writes 3 onboard flight software project rated level 5 nasa team group generates 20 40 verified code per year nasa someone tell ignorant physicist term level 5 comes \? sounds like risks digest equivalent large , extra large , jumbo maybe 's like 5 gather means shuttle software developed extreme care safety , almost everything else computing world level 1 , cheesy dime store software surprising invents standard , come everyone seems familiar \? level 5 refers carnegie mellon software engineering institute 's capability maturity model model rates software development org 's 5 1 chaotic 5 optimizing dod beginning use rating system contracts data 1 page 1000 20 30 page presentation summarizes could fax 're interested bret wingert wingert vnet ibm com \( 713 \) 282 fax \( 713 \) 282
jfc athena mit edu \( john f carr \) subject gamma ray bursters organization massachusetts institute technology lines 12 nntp posting host achates mit edu gamma ray bursters , would absorption galaxy expected \? transparent galactic core gamma rays \? much energy burster put \? know energy depends distance , unknown answer form x ergs per 2 ok john carr \( jfc athena mit edu \)
kjenks jsc nasa gov \( ken jenks nasa \) subject space station redesign , jsc alternative 4 organization nasa jsc gm2 , space shuttle program office kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 40 kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov \( hey , 's ! \) wrote 19 \( 2 mb worth ! \) uuencode 'd gif images contain charts outlining one many alternative space station designs considered crystal city posted gif files anonymous ftp server ics uci edu retrieve ics uci edu incoming gif ics uci edu incoming gif ics uci edu incoming gif ics uci edu incoming gif ics uci edu incoming gif ics uci edu incoming gif ics uci edu incoming gif ics uci edu incoming gif ics uci edu incoming gif ics uci edu incoming gif ics uci edu incoming gif ics uci edu incoming gif ics uci edu incoming gif ics uci edu incoming gif ics uci edu incoming gif ics uci edu incoming gif ics uci edu incoming gif ics uci edu incoming gif ics uci edu incoming gif last two scanned color photos others scanned briefing charts deleted ics uci edu system manager days , 's time grab 're interested sorry took long get , trying ames server , 's space ken jenks , nasa jsc gm2 , space shuttle program office kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov \( 713 \) 483 4368 earth cradle humanity , mankind stay cradle forever
zellner stsci edu subject hst servicing mission lines 19 organization space telescope science institute distribution world , na article access digex net , prb access digex com \( pat \) writes somebody mentioned boost hst mission , meaning weight tight margin mission n't heard hint boost , needed grapple , said fixes , bolt small liquid fueled thruster module hst , let make boost cheaper mass usingthe shuttle tug nasty , dirty combustion products ! people gone efforts keep hst clean certainly n't going bolt thrusters ben
n4hy harder ccr p ida org \( bob mcgwier \) subject space surveillance \? organization ida center communications research lines 13 distribution world nntp posting host harder ccr p ida org reply thomsonal cpva saic com 's message 23 apr 93 20 17 25 gmt tell amsat launched birds along spot satellite \( french \) , installation instruments spot 2 , heavily armed look faces spot satellites completely capable good orbit surveillance robert w mcgwier n4hy ccr p ida org center communications research interests amateur radio , astronomy , golf princeton , n j asst troop 5700 ,
gfk39017 uxa cso uiuc edu \( george f krumins \) subject vandalizing sky organization university illinois urbana lines 59 nicho vnet ibm com \( greg stewart nicholls \) writes c5y4t7 9w3 news cso uiuc edu george f krumins writes typical rights minority extinguished wants majority , matter ridiculous wants might umm , perhaps could explain 'rights' talking greg nicholls vidi nicho vnet ibm com vici nicho olympus demon co uk veni suggesting minority professional amateur astronomers right dark , uncluttered night sky let give example watch tv , commercials pay programming accept part watching n't like , turn want view night sky , floating billboard , ca n't turn 's reasoning limits billboards scenic areas pat writes george 's called democracy majority rules sorry n't like , suggest modify constitution include constitutional right dark skies theory government majority rules , except nature fundamental civil rights say reasonably depth perusal american history show many wasps continued practices prejudice , discrimination , violence others different races , religions , beliefs , despite law pat says really annoyed , get legislation create dark sky zone , light emissions protected zone kind like national radio quiet zone know \? near teh radio telescope observatory west virginia , 90 \? \? \? \? \? \? mile zone theoretically prevent running light ac motors , like air conditioners practice , use mostly control large radio users say i'm objecting floating billboard , presumably , would move around sky , one , legislating wish people bit common courtesy , would consider greed money impacts ethereal aesthetic values make us human includes need wild unspoiled things , including night sky george george krumins serpent rainbow gfk39017 uxa cso uiuc edu observatory \( \)
sichase csa2 lbl gov \( scott chase \) subject vandalizing sky organization lawrence berkeley laboratory berkeley , ca , usa lines 22 distribution world nntp posting host 128 3 254 197 news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article pgf srl02 cacs usl edu , pgf srl02 cacs usl edu \( phil g fraering \) writes jeff cook ftcollinsco ncr com \( jeff cook \) writes people primitive tribes middle nowhere look see budweiser flying across sky seen movie already one like come think , might send someone quest get rid dang thing actually , idea , like good ideas , comes jules verne , gods must crazy one lesser known books \( ca n't remember one right \) , balloon , travelling africa way around world balloon , one drops fob watch speculate reaction natives finding thing , dropped straight heaven notion pursued scott new sig construction scott chase please patient sichase csa2 lbl gov thank
sysmgr king eng umd edu \( doug mohney \) subject want billion organization computer aided design lab , u maryland college park lines 37 reply sysmgr king eng umd edu nntp posting host queen eng umd edu article zoo toronto edu , henry zoo toronto edu \( henry spencer \) writes article mojo eng umd edu sysmgr king eng umd edu writes 'd need launch hlvs send large amounts stuff know private titan pad \? 'd need launch hlvs send large amounts stuff assume new launcher development assume new launcher development , lower costs specific objective , probably n't want build something hlv sized anyway nobody interested launching things cheaply buy titans n't take many titan pay laser launcher large gas gun development program big dumb booster , would far better cost effectiveness henry , made assumption gets wins , want put fine print says thou shall r rather use shelf hardware \? sorry , n't see copy proposals run along lines dollar amount reward simple goal go ahead development , 'll buy shelf higher cost \( even russian also assume 'd buy us \) camped moon launching assembling little payloads leo laser gas gun working bugs assembly integration leo oh , hey , could get couple tuned lunar environment \? wanna prospecting i'm software engineering \? 's like military intelligence , n't \? sysmgr cadlab eng umd edu
clj ksr com \( chris jones \) subject keeping spacecraft funding cuts reply clj ksr com \( chris jones \) organization kendall square research corp lines 13 reply prb access digex com \( pat \) article access digex net , prb access \( pat \) writes voyager unusual luck stable trajectory solar system 's collecting fields data , routinely one mariners also stable solar orbit , still providing similiar solar data mariner craft still receiving data believe referring one pioneers 6 9 \( launched december 1965 november 1968 \) , put solar orbits study interplanetary space recall reading least one still functioning 25 years launch chris jones clj ksr com
hq nasa gov \( \( 202 \) subject remote sensing data x added forwarded space digest warning parse error original version preceding line vacation venari cs cmu edu organization via international space university original sender isu vacation venari cs cmu edu distribution sci lines 137 posting someone else please respond address listed please also excuse duplication message crossposted thanks ! request ideas applications remote sensing databases via internet nasa planning expand domain users earth space science data effort use evolving infrastructure u global change research program including mission planet earth \( \) earth observing system data information system \( \) programs use internet , particularly high performance computing communications program 's nren \( national research education network \) , means providing access distribution science data images value added products provide broad access utilization remotely sensed images cooperation agencies \( especially noaa , epa , doe , , usgs , usda \) support remote sensing image data users development communities user development communities included \( limited \) part effort educators , commercial application developers \( e g , television weather \) , , publishers , agriculture specialists , transportation , forestry , state local government planners , aqua business program initiated 1994 assistance requested identify potential applications remote sensing images data would like ideas potential application areas assist development implementation plan please note request proposals seeking ideas areas \( 1 \) potential commercial use remote sensing data images \( 2 \) potential noncommercial use remote sensing data images education \( especially levels k 12 \) noncommercial areas \( 3 \) types line capabilities protocols make data accessible \( 4 \) additional points contacts ideas \( 5 \) addresses names request proposals convenience , standard format responses included feel free amend necessary either e mail fax responses us may 5 , 1993 e mail internet orion ossa hq nasa gov ascii binary attachments please fax ernie , c , nasa hq , fax 202 358 survey responses following formats may also placed ftp directory ftp pub orion nasa gov please indicate format acceptable formats word windows 2 x , macintosh word 4 x 5 x , rtf response format request ideas applications remote sensing databases via internet \( 1 \) potential commercial use remote sensing data images \( possible , identify relevant types data science products , user tools , standards \) \( 2 \) uses remote sensing data images education \( especially levels k 12 \) noncommercial areas \( possible , identify relevant types data science products , user tools , standards \) \( 3 \) types line capabilities protocols make data images accessible \( possible , identify relevant types formats , standards , user tools \) \( 4 \) additional suggested persons organizations may resources ideas applications areas please include name , organization , address telephone number \( 5 \) organizations , mailing lists \( electronic paper \) , periodicals , etc proposals sent developed please include name , organization , address telephone number \( 6 \) would benefit knowing users know nasa remote sensing data use data ties nasa investigators , high cost , lack , incompatible data formats , poor area interest coverage , inadequate spatial spectral resolution , \? \( 7 \) case questions , please send us name , address , phone number \( e mail address one \) n't wish send us information , feel free respond survey anonymously thank assistance
mcelwre cnsvax uwec edu subject larsonian astronomy physics organization university wisconsin eau claire lines 552 larsonian astronomy physics orthodox physicists , astronomers , astrophysicists claim looking unified field theory forces universe explained single set laws equations systematically ignoring suppressing excellent one 30 years ! late physicist dewey b larson 's comprehensive general unified theory physical universe , calls reciprocal system , built two fundamental postulates physical mathematical natures space time \( 1 \) physical universe composed entirely one component , motion , existing three dimensions , discrete units , two reciprocal forms , space time \( 2 \) physical universe conforms relations ordinary mathematics , absolute , geometry euclidean two postulates , larson developed complete theoretical universe , using various combinations , vibrational , rotational , vibrational rotational motions , concepts ward ward scalar motions , speeds relation speed light \( larson called unit velocity natural datum \) step development , larson able match objects theoretical universe objects real physical universe , \( photons , sub atomic particles incomplete atoms , charges , atoms , molecules , globular star clusters , galaxies , binary star systems , solar systems , white dwarf stars , pulsars , quasars , etc \) , even objects yet discovered \( exploding galaxies , gamma ray bursts \) applying theory new model atom , larson able precisely accurately calculate inter atomic distances crystals molecules , thermal expansion solids , properties matter described good detail , fancy complex mathematics , books books dewey b larson following complete list late physicist dewey b larson 's books comprehensive general unified theory physical universe early books print , still available inter library loan structure physical universe \( 1959 \) case nuclear atom \( 1963 \) beyond newton \( 1964 \) new light space time \( 1965 \) quasars pulsars \( 1971 \) nothing motion \( 1979 \) 9 50 substitute 8 3 billion super collider last four chapters explain chemical bonding neglected facts science \( 1982 \) universe motion \( 1984 \) final solutions astrophysical mysteries basic properties matter \( 1988 \) last books published north pacific publishers , p box , portland , , available via inter library loan local university public library n't several , including last one , available international society unified science \( \) , e ave , salt lake city , utah organization started promote larson 's theory related publications , including quarterly journal reciprocity physicist dewey b larson 's background physicist dewey b larson retired engineer \( chemical electrical \) 91 years old died may 1989 bachelor science degree engineering science oregon state university developed comprehensive general unified theory physical universe trying develop way compute chemical properties based elements used larson 's lack fancy ph degree might one reason orthodox physicists ignoring , valid reason sometimes takes relative outsider clearly see forest trees time , clear books also knew orthodox physics astronomy well physicist astronomer , well enough point contradictions , ad hoc assumptions , principles impotence , , etc larson funds , etc experimentally test theory necessary simply compared various parts theory experimental observational data many cases , explanation fit better self consistent theory much orthodox physicists astronomers ! claim looking unified field theory works , ignoring one 30 years ! modern physics explain physical universe well parts larson 's books full quotations leading orthodox physicists astronomers agree remember , crystal spheres , , flat earth theory , etc , also seemed explain well , later proved conceptually wrong prof frank h meyer , professor emeritus uw superior , strong proponent larson 's theory , \( still \) president larson 's organization , international society unified science , editor quarterly journal reciprocity moved minneapolis retiring super collider ! superconducting super collider , texas anywhere else would gross waste money , contribute almost nothing scientific value physicists n't realize , , according comprehensive general unified theory late physicist dewey b larson , described books , strange goofy particles \( , , alleged quarks , etc \) finding existing \( fermi lab , cern , etc \) really atoms anti matter , created high energy colliding beams , quickly like cosmic rays incompatible environment larger expensive collider create elements anti matter physicists seen , physicists even confused ! types anti matter atoms worth 8 3 billion cost \? ! ! n't much important uses wasted money \? ! another thing consider primary proposed location texas serious growing problem kind fire ants eating insulation underground cables much poisoning ground ground water required keep ants \? ! naming super collider ronald , proposed , totally absurd ! built , named leading particle physicist larsonian anti matter larson 's comprehensive general unified theory physical universe , anti matter simple case opposite charges types particles rates vibrations rotations photons made , relation vibrational rotational equivalents speed light , larson calls unit velocity natural datum larson 's theory , positron actually particle matter , anti matter positron electron meet , rotational vibrations \( charges \) rotations respective photons \( made \) neutralize larson 's theory , anti matter half physical universe three dimensions time , one dimension space , exists reciprocal relationship material half larsonian relativity perihelion point orbit planet mercury observed precisely measured advance rate 574 seconds arc per century 531 seconds advance attributed via calculations gravitational perturbations planets \( venus , earth , jupiter , etc \) remaining 43 seconds arc used help prove einstein 's general theory relativity late physicist dewey b larson achieved results closer 43 seconds general relativity , instead using special relativity one books , applied lorentz transformation high orbital speed mercury larson totally rejected general relativity another mathematical fantasy also rejected special relativity , including parts mass increases near speed light , use lorentz transform doppler shifts , \( quasars red shifts greater 1 000 really moving faster speed light , although motion away us time \) larson 's comprehensive general unified theory physical universe , three dimensions time instead one two dimensions measured material half physical universe one dimension measure clock time low relative speeds , values two dimensions negligible high speeds , become significant , lorentz transformation must used fudge factor larson often used term coordinate time writing regard mass increases , proven atomic accelerators acceleration drops toward zero near speed light formula acceleration acceleration force mass , \( f \) orthodox physicists ignoring third factor force larson 's theory , mass stays constant force drops toward zero force actually motion , combinations motions , relations motions , including inward outward scalar motions expansion universe , example , outward scalar motion inherent universe result called big bang \( yet another mathematical fantasy \) universe motion wish recommend everyone book universe motion , dewey b larson , 1984 , north pacific publishers , \( p box , portland , oregon \) , 456 pages , indexed , hardcover contains astrophysical portions general unified theory physical universe developed author , unrecognized genius , thirty years ago contains final solutions astrophysical mysteries , including formation galaxies , binary multiple star systems , solar systems , true origin 3 degree background radiation , cosmic rays , gamma ray bursts , true nature quasars , pulsars , white , exploding galaxies , etc contains astronomers astrophysicists looking , ready seriously consider open minds ! following example theory 's success first book 1959 , structure physical universe , larson predicted existence exploding galaxies , several years astronomers started finding necessary consequence larson 's comprehensive theory quasars discovered , immediate related explanation also gamma ray bursts astro physicists astronomers still scratching heads mysterious gamma ray bursts originally thought originate neutron stars disc galaxy new gamma ray telescope earth orbit detecting directions uniformly , source locations space correspond known objects , \( except cases directional coincidence \) gamma ray bursts necessary consequence general unified theory physical universe developed late physicist dewey b larson according page 386 book universe motion , published 1984 , gamma ray bursts coming supernova explosions anti matter half physical universe , larson calls cosmic sector relationship anti matter material halves physical universe , way connected together , gamma ray bursts pop material half anywhere space , seemingly random \( source locations bursts correspond known objects , come directions uniformly \) wonder close us space source location would gamma ray burst kill life earth ! would way predict one , stop ! perhaps mass past , blamed impacts comets asteroids , actually caused nearby gamma ray bursts ! larsonian binary star formation half stars galaxy vicinity sun binary double orthodox astronomers astrophysicists still satisfactory theory form many binary star systems actually likely consequence comprehensive general unified theory physical universe developed late physicist dewey b larson try summarize explanation , detailed chapter 7 book universe motion books first , according larson , stars generate energy fusion small fraction comes slow gravitational collapse rest results complete annihilation heavy elements \( heavier iron \) element destructive temperature limit heavier element , lower limit star 's internal temperature increases grows mass via absorption decay products cosmic rays , gradually reaching destructive temperature limit lighter lighter elements internal temperature star reaches destructive temperature limit iron , type supernova explosion ! much iron present related structure iron atoms atom building process , larson explains books better star explodes , lighter material outer portion star blown outward space less speed light heavier material center portion star already bouncing around close speed light , high temperature explosion pushes material speed light , expands outward time , equivalent inward space , often actually disappears long periods time , masses start fall back gravitationally material blown outward space starts form red giant star material blown outward time starts form white dwarf star stars start moving back toward main sequence opposite directions h r diagram chances two masses falling back exact location space , making single lone star , near zero instead form binary system , orbiting according larson , white dwarf star inverse density gradient \( surface \) , material center widely dispersed \( blown outward \) time eliminates need resort mathematical fantasies degenerate matter , neutron stars , black holes , etc larsonian solar system formation mass heavy material center exploding star relatively small , , instead single white dwarf star , several mini white dwarf stars \( around red giant star , probably still far away three dimensional time affected heat , etc \) become planets ! chapter 7 universe motion , larson used information , principles comprehensive general unified theory physical universe , derive version bode 's law black hole fantasy ! heard physicist stephen w hawking recently completed theoretical mathematical analysis two black holes merging together single black hole , concluded new black hole would mass sum two original black holes result recognized everyone red flag , causing widespread doubt whole idea black holes , etc ! reading physicist dewey b larson 's books comprehensive general unified theory physical universe , especially book universe motion , clear black holes nothing mathematical fantasies ! strange object cygnus x 1 unusually massive white dwarf star , black hole orthodox astronomers physicists badly want prove theory way , understand much publicity given physicist stephen hawking physicists astronomers seem acting hawking 's severe physical problem somehow makes wiser ! wish attention given physicist dewey b larson still alive widespread publicity attention given larson 's theory , books , organization \( international society unified science \) electro magnetic propulsion heard concept many years ago , connection ufo 's unorthodox inventors , never able find work , constructed found possible clue might work pages 112 113 book basic properties matter , late physicist dewey b larson , describes part larson 's comprehensive general unified theory physical universe quote one paragraph indicated preceding chapter , development theory universe motion arrives totally different concept nature electrical resistance electrons , find , derived environment brought volume larson 's book nothing motion physical processes operation produce electrons substantial quantities , , although motions constitute electrons , many cases , absorbed atomic structures , opportunities utilizing type motion structures limited follows always large excess free electrons material sector material half universe , uncharged uncharged state electrons cannot move respect extension space , inherently rotating units space , relation space space motion open space , therefore , uncharged electron remains permanently location respect natural reference system , manner photon context stationary spatial reference system uncharged electron , like photon , carried outward speed light progression natural reference system material thus exposed flux electrons similar continual bombardment photons radiation meanwhile processes , discussed later , whereby electrons returned environment electron population material aggregate earth therefore equilibrium level note larson 's theory , uncharged electrons also , basically photons light particular frequency \( unit frequency \) spinning around one axis particular rate \( unit rate \) \( unit velocity speed light , vibrational rotational equivalents speed light , according larson 's theory \) might labels mixed larson saying outer space filled mass less un charged electrons flying around speed light ! true , electro magnetic propulsion fields spacecraft might able interact electrons , particles space , perhaps giving charge \( mass \) shooting toward rear achieve propulsion \( larson 's theory , electrical charge one dimensional rotational vibration particular frequency \( unit frequency \) rotation particle \) paragraph quoted might also give clue confused lightning generated clouds suppression larsonian physics comprehensive general unified theory physical universe developed late physicist dewey b larson available 30 years , published 1959 first book structure physical universe totally un scientific hawking , wheeler , sagan , sacred priests religion call science \( physics , astronomy , etc \) , well scientific literature education systems , totally ignore larson 's theory larson 's theory excellent explanations many things puzzling orthodox physicists astronomers , gamma ray bursts nature quasars larson 's theory deserves honestly openly discussed physics , chemistry , astronomy journals , u elsewhere least basic principles larson 's theory included related courses uw ec , uw madison , cambridge , cornell university , elsewhere , students kept dark worthy alternative dogma fed information , answers questions , etc , please consult cited sources \( especially larson 's books \) un altered reproduction dissemination important partial summary encouraged robert e mcelwaine b , physics astronomy , uw ec
hparc0 aus hp com \( robin kenny \) subject boom ! whoosh organization hp australasian response centre \( melbourne \) x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 5 lines 26 david fuzzy wells \( wdwells nyx cs du edu \) wrote love idea inflatable 1 mile long sign really neat thing see explode bolt \( even better , westford needle ! \) comes crashing 10 clicks sec boom ! sputter , sputter okay , pretend would make sound ! thought \( let 's pretend inflated pressurized \) would n't large static electricity build around puncture \? behind clear sandwich \( ie insulated \) balloon would generate electrical interference noise way , serious high velocity impact would simply cut bugs bunny hole wall , highly unlikely boom , fabric would almost certainly regards , robin kenny private personal opinion , way endorsed , authorised known employers heck would know space \? i'm stuck bottom huge gravity well !
higgins fnal gov \( bill higgins beam jockey \) subject nasa ames server \( space station redesign , jsc alternative 4 \) organization fermi national accelerator laboratory lines 14 nntp posting host fnal gov article 1993apr26 aio jsc nasa gov , kjenks jsc nasa gov \( ken jenks nasa \) writes posted gif files anonymous ftp server ics uci edu sorry took long get , trying ames server , 's space ironic bill higgins , beam jockey treat password like fermi national accelerator laboratory n't let bitnet higgins fnal bitnet anybody else use internet higgins fnal fnal gov get new one every span hepnet 43011 higgins six months cliff
tholen newton ifa hawaii edu \( dave tholen \) subject command loss timer \( galileo update 04 22 93 \) organization institute astronomy , hawaii lines 23 alan carter writes 3 april 19 , op command sent reset command loss timer 264 hours , planned value mission phase activity regularly reported ron 's interesting posts could someone explain command loss timer \? name rather descriptive 's command spacecraft tells n't hear earth 264 hours , assume something wrong \( spacecraft \) attitude , go search mode attempt signal earth spacecraft earth constant communication earth monitors telemetry spacecraft , everything fine , 's reason send new information spacecraft 's point view , information earth could mean either everything fine , spacecraft lost signal acquisition long spacecraft wait decides something wrong begins take corrective action \? long command loss timer relatively inactive cruise phases , command loss timer set rather long values case , earth telling galileo expect hear back us sometime within next 264 hours
jbatka desire wright edu subject gamma ray bursters organization wright state university lines 16 assume guessed assumed energy event 1 r 2 law , 1 r 2 law incorrect \( assume unknown material dark matter \? \? inhibits gamma ray propagation \) , could possible actually seeing much less energetic events happening much closer us \? even distribution could caused characteristic propagation distance gamma rays shorter 1 2 thickness disk galaxy idle babbling , jim work email ccmail dayton saic com elvis home email jbatka desire wright edu dead ! 64 years 33 , 661 , 440 minutes minute long time ! beatles yellow submarine
khayash hsc usc edu \( ken hayashida \) subject life mars \? \? \? organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 25 nntp posting host hsc usc edu article 1993apr26 aio jsc nasa gov kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov writes know 's wishful thinking , current president , last fall life mars \? maybe daniel goldin , nasa administrator , 24 august 1992 ken jenks , nasa jsc gm2 , space shuttle program office kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov \( 713 \) 483 4368 lets hear dan goldin convince rest federal government space program worth investment ! hope live see day walk mars , need address technical first ! 's sufficient interest , maybe consider starting sci space group devoted technical analysis long duration human spaceflight regulars know i'm interested starting analysis soon possible ken khayash hsc usc edu usc school medicine , class 1994
djf cck coventry ac uk \( marvin batty \) subject space surveillance \? nntp posting host cc sysk organization starfleet , coventry , uk lines 35 european space agency involvement remote earth observation , presume includes surveillance \( optical etc \) 's us ussr \( ex \) game game \? done space observation \? military functions missile spotting , troop spotting etc well documented , anything else \? biggest eg think get metal sensing sat paying country scan territory precious metals importantly , radar spot water vapour \( clouds \) , presumably radar based sat capable spotting rivers , open water underground water space would positive life saver african drought affected countries implementing clean water program would countries cut considerably \? charity government agency would pay third world country minerals water deposits mapped \? still sci fi \? mail replies would great thought day thermal energy needs water make steam ocean ! marvin batty djf uk ac cov cck shall find things , sort rafia like base , fathers put night 8 o'clock !
ralph buttigieg z3 fido zeta org au \( ralph buttigieg \) subject give 1 billion first year lo organization fidonet gate admin fido socs uts edu au lines 34 original keithley apple com g 'day keithley apple com 21 apr 93 22 25 , keithley apple com wrote kc keithley apple com \( craig keithley \) , via kralizec 3 713 602 kc back contest goals , recent article aw st kc low cost \( 's relative \) manned return moon general kc dynamics scheme involving titan iv shuttle lift centaur upper kc stage , lev , crew capsule mission consists delivering two kc unmanned payloads lunar surface , followed manned mission kc total cost us 10 13 billion joint esa \( \? \) nasa project 6 9 kc billion us share kc moon year hmmm really practical anyone got kc cheaper better way delivering 15 20 tonnes lunar surface within kc decade \? anyone precise guess much year 's kc supply consumables equipment would weigh \? modify gd plan 's compact moon direct scheme \? let one early flight carry o2 plant make ta ralph golded 2 41 origin world sydney australia \( 02 \) 635 1204 3 713 6 \( 3 713 635 \)
jenk microsoft com \( jen kilmer \) subject sex education organization microsoft corporation lines 44 article mar 26 02 54 26 1993 athos rutgers edu nextnet ccs csus edu \( dennis swanson \) writes article mar 22 02 52 49 1993 330 athos rutgers edu heath athena cs uga edu \( terrance heath \) writes programs , spend half time talking find people object sex education actually object teaching anything , imo irresponsible talking use i'm impression sex ed instructors policy makers actually object making passing reference abstinence , wishing spend time realistic choices sex ed portion high school health course took 1984 , impressed 100 positive way get pregnant sex methods contraception discussed , framework chart showed expected failure rate \( theoretical , assumes mistakes \) actual failure rate \( based research \) top chart something like method expected actual failure rate failure rate abstinence 0 0 \( natural family planning \) bottom teacher even said , 've students tell ca n't use anything birth control 're catholic well , 're married 're practicing catholic , top list slot , bottom even 're religious , top list safest yes , public school dr 's failing abstinence , use condom statement prevention aids jen include stdisclaimer jenk microsoft com msdos testing
cleveland freenet edu \( gary v \) subject pantheism environmentalism organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 21 hi i'm new group , maybe covered already , anybody see current emphasis environment turned \( unintentionally , course \) pantheism \? 've debated quite bit , think legitimate concern planet great thing , easily see perverted something dangerous evidence , may quote wall street journal \( things ! \) , april 2 \( editorial page \) suspect 's one party \( environmental \) dispute thinks earth sanctified 's clear much energy derived called religious left , secular , even pagan fanaticism worships gods nature gender reverence formerly accorded real religions \( emphasis mine \) thoughts \? reactions \? \?
morgan socs uts edu au subject technology reply morgan socs uts edu au organization university technology sydney lines 39 article apr 2 02 36 53 1993 athos rutgers edu cs uq oz au writes fairly new group wondering people 's opinions ethical uses net , technology general classic references area jacques liberal evangelical perspective os straight evangelical view want look non christian sources try alvin perennial optimist views non christian explore technology may going example , chain letters going around claim written christian missionary , present misleading image christian religion regardless technology careful separate issues related speed dispersion technology \( far letter went quickly got \) message passed technology \( something seems totally wrong \) help make best use computer technology \? area challenge \( non atheistic \) class impact technology life , quality life rights consider important depending work faith determine response use technology example friends mine considering ivf due life threatening situation wife going baby \( god willing \) case technology available friends decide cases though must decide technology god 's revealed word regards david david morgan university technology sydney morgan socs uts edu au po box 123 broadway nsw ph 61 2 330 15 73 broadway sydney fax 61 2 330 1807 paid good money get opinions get free v
virginia edu \( quinn \) subject seven w gilligan seven deadly sins organization university virginia lines 7 gilligan skipper anger howell iii greed howell lust professor pride mary ann envy
petch gvg47 gvg tek com \( chuck petch \) subject daily verse organization grass valley group , grass valley , ca lines 4 therefore , whoever like child greatest kingdom heaven matthew 18 4
columbiasc ncr com \( \) subject elder brother organization ncr corp , columbia sc lines 15 article apr 8 00 57 41 1993 athos rutgers edu rexlex fnal gov writes article apr 7 01 56 56 1993 athos rutgers edu hpfcso fc hp com matt 22 9 14 therefore main highways , many find , invite wedding feast ' hmmmmmm sounds like theology christ 's odds one believe \? parable , jesus tells parable wedding feast kingdom heaven like unto certain king made marriage son wedding clothes customary , given chose attend man refused wear clothes wedding clothes clothes righteousness jesus died sins , clothes provided like man , decision put clothes
davem bnr ca \( dave mielke \) subject god love \? organization bell northern research , ottawa , canada lines 416 come across consider excellent tract bit lengthy posting , thought 'd share anyway feel free pass along anyone feel might benefit says may god bless read e g l v e u \? q kind question \? anyone read sees signs , tracts , books , bumper stickers say , god loves n't true \? true god offers love whole world , read one quoted verses bible god loved world , gave begotten son , whosoever perish , everlasting life john 3 16 however , god 's love qualified bible says way wicked abomination unto lord loveth righteousness proverbs 15 9 lord knoweth way righteous way ungodly shall perish psalm 1 6 q wicked decent , moral person surely good done life far outweighs whatever bad done verses apply \? god 's standard righteousness even moral person looked upon god desperate sinner way hell bible teaches one good enough go heaven contrary , sinners guilty god written , none righteous , , one none , none god romans 3 10 11 heart deceitful things , desperately wicked know \? jeremiah 17 9 q wicked person god 's sight , god \? bible teaches end world wicked come eternal punishment place called hell fire mine anger , shall burn unto lowest hell , shall consume earth increase , set fire foundations mountains heap upon spend mine arrows upon shall burnt hunger , burning heat , bitter destruction also send teeth beasts upon , poison dust deuteronomy 32 22 24 q oh , come ! hell real , \? surely things bad indeed , hell real , things bad know lord jesus christ savior bible makes many references hell , indicating eternal consists perpetual suffering whosoever found written book life cast lake fire revelation 20 15 shall end world angels shall come forth , sever wicked among , shall cast fire shall wailing teeth matthew 13 49 50 lord jesus shall revealed heaven mighty angels , flaming fire taking vengeance know god , obey gospel lord jesus christ shall punished everlasting destruction presence lord , glory power 2 thessalonians 1 7 9 q terrible ! would god create hell \? hell terrible , exists god created man accountable god actions god 's perfect justice demands payment sin wages sin death romans 6 23 must appear judgment seat christ every one may receive things done body , according hath done , whether good bad 2 corinthians 5 10 say unto , every idle word men shall speak , shall give account thereof day judgment matthew 12 36 q mean end world everyone brought life judged sent hell \? indeed , unless find someone substitute bearing punishment eternal damnation sins someone god , came earth jesus christ bear wrath god believe like sheep gone astray turned every one way lord hath laid iniquity us isaiah 53 6 wounded transgressions , bruised iniquities peace upon stripes healed isaiah 53 5 delivered unto first also received , christ died sins according scriptures buried , rose third day according scriptures 1 corinthians 15 3 4 hath made sin us , knew sin might made righteousness god 2 corinthians 5 21 q saying trust christ substitute , already punished sins , worry hell anymore \? yes , ! believed christ savior , already stood judgment throne god christ substitute already paid sins son hath everlasting life son shall see life wrath god john 3 36 q mean believe \? agree bible says christ savior , saved going hell \? believing christ means whole lot agreeing minds truths bible means hang whole lives means every part lives truths bible means turn away sins serve christ lord man serve two masters either hate one , love else hold one , despise ye cannot serve god mammon matthew 6 24 repent ye therefore , converted , sins may blotted , times refreshing shall come presence lord acts 3 19 q saying way escape hell except jesus \? religions \? followers also go hell \? yes , indeed cannot escape fact god holds us account able sins god demands pay sins religions cannot provide substitute bear sins followers christ one able bear guilt save us neither salvation none name heaven given among men , whereby must saved acts 4 12 jesus said way , truth , life man cometh unto father , john 14 6 confess sins , faithful forgive us sins , cleanse us 1 john 1 9 q desperate want go hell \? must remember god one help must throw altogether god see hopeless condition sinner , cry god save , standing , would lift much eyes unto heaven , upon breast , saying , god merciful sinner luke 18 13 , must saved \? said , believe lord jesus christ , thou shalt saved , acts 16 30 31 q believe christ know little \? wonderfully , god saves us lord jesus , also gives us faith believe pray god give faith jesus christ savior grace ye saved faith gift god ephesians 2 8 god works particularly bible give us faith , really mean business god salvation , use every opportunity hear study bible , word god brochure , verses bible within indented paragraphs give heed heart faith cometh hearing , hearing word god romans 10 17 q mean surrender everything god \? yes god wants us come total humility , acknowledging sinfulness helplessness , trusting totally sacrifices god broken spirit broken heart , god , thou wilt despise psalm 51 17 sinners love sins therefore , must begin pray god intense hatred sins sincerely desire salvation , also begin turn sins god strengthens us know sins sending us hell unto first god , raised son jesus , sent bless , turning away every one iniquities acts 3 26 q n't bible teach must attend church regularly baptized \? save \? possible , things , save us work kind secure salvation salvation god 's sovereign gift grace given according mercy good pleas salvation works , lest man boast ephesians 2 9 q else happen end world \? trusted jesus savior transformed glorious eternal bodies christ forever lord shall descend heaven shout , voice archangel , trump god dead christ shall rise first alive remain shall caught together clouds , meet lord air shall ever lord 1 thessalonians 4 16 17 q happen earth time \? god destroy entire universe fire create new heavens new earth christ reign believers forever day lord come thief night heavens shall pass away great noise , elements shall melt heat , earth also works therein shall burned nevertheless , according promise , look new heavens new earth , wherein righteousness 2 peter 3 10 , 13 q bible give us idea end earth come \? yes ! end come christ saved plans save gospel kingdom shall preached world witness unto nations shall end come matthew 24 14 q know close end world might \? yes ! god gives much information bible concerning timing history world tells us day lord come thief night , come thief believers much evidence bible end world return christ may , close time clues bible point shall say , peace safety sudden destruction cometh upon , upon woman child shall escape 1 thessalonians 5 3 surely lord god nothing , secret unto servants prophets amos 3 7 q means judgment day almost yes , god warned ancient going destroy great city gave forty days warning jonah began enter city day 's journey , cried , said , yet forty days , shall overthrown jonah 3 4 q people \? king god , repented sins , cried god mercy let man beast covered , cry mightily unto god yea , let turn every one evil way , violence hands tell god turn repent , turn away fierce anger , perish \? jonah 3 8 9 q god hear prayers \? yes god saved great many people q still cry god mercy come ment \? yes still time become saved even though time become short shall escape , neglect great salvation first began spoken lord , confirmed unto us heard hebrews 2 3 god salvation glory rock strength , refuge , god trust times ye people , pour heart god refuge us psalm 62 7 8 r e u r e e e g \? book entitled 1994 \? , written harold camping , presents biblical information may near end time information obtain copy receive free program guide list radio stations hear gospel programs , please write family radio , oakland , california , \( united states amer \) , call 1 800 543 1495 foregoing copy god love \? tract printed , available free charge , family radio number minor changes made layout facilitate computer printing distribution change text paragraph describes way biblical passages appear within text original tract appear italic appear indented paragraphs read mr camping 's book , compared bible actual ly says , find credible research respect future holds ever come across , agree much data ignore none us guaranteed one second life , , therefore , take matters seriously regardless christ actually return , would appear natural tendency caring eternal destiny feel death imminent even senseless , likelihood , law averages respect life expectancy longer applies wish obtain copy book check facts , may find following information helpful title 1994 \? author harold camping publisher vantage press distributor baker taylor isbn 0 533 1 chosen share tract whole heartedly agree everything declares feel , perhaps ever , information must made known paraphrase acts 20 27 , shun declare unto us counsel god always willing discuss eternal truths bible anyone interested believe issues real importance since spend , comparatively speaking , little time side grave much feel free get touch time e mail davem bnr ca office 1 613 765 4671 home 1 613 726 dave mielke 856 avenue ottawa , ontario , canada
nichael bbn com \( nichael cramer \) subject dead sea scrolls reply ncramer bbn com organization bbn , interzone office lines 24 missouri edu \( denis hancock \) writes nice article dss , thought answered david cruz uribe 's original queries quite well books read recently helped prepare 5 week series taught sunday school , greatly increased knowledge qumran scrolls one recent book would heartily recommend joseph 's response 101 questions dead sea scrolls \( , 1992 \) one modern nt scholars also one early workers dss book written straightforward q allows serve source great wealth clearly presented basic , moment information dss \( book something companion volume raymond brown 's response 101 questions dead sea scrolls \) nichael pop quiz 's wrong cover book \? \)
jemurray magnus acs ohio state edu \( john e murray \) subject quality catholic liturgy organization ohio state university lines 37 would like opinion netters subject bothering wife lately liturgy , particular , catholic liturgy last years seems ad hoc events mass 's driving crazy ! grace filled aspect liturgical tradition happens something together , know led priest , course , makes kind dialogue present god best masses 've prayers lately , think proportion participation fallen , proportion sitting watching , listening , generally told \( necessary one knows 's happening next \) growing example last sunday \( palm sunday \) went local church usually palm sunday , congregation participates reading passion , taking role mob theology behind seems profound say crucify mean , came back today 'd always gives last week invited sit gospel \( passion \) listen besides invitation , really saddened \( \) little role taken away seems typical shift participation away people , toward musicians , readers , new things introduced course liturgy since one knows 's happening , new things explained , pretty soon instead lot mass 're sitting listening \( spacing , case \) mass done mind , lay blame liturgy committees made lay experts , may think liturgy committee bias toward something rather nothing 's fact bureaucratic life even though simpler liturgy may fact make easier people aware lord 's presence 've wondering , quality mass going \? n't mean go mass every thursday friday reminded power simple liturgy make us aware god 's presence far obligatory sunday masses maybe offer \) anyone else noticed declining participation catholic masses lately \? john murray
gilham csl sri com \( fred gilham \) subject prophetic warning new york city organization computer science lab , sri international , menlo park , ca lines 16 regarding david wilkerson 's prophecies i'm real sure credibility , remember book wrote , called vision something like made prediction people bought gold would hurt financially time , gold 800 less half prediction stuck mind lot people worked buying gold problem , tend remember predictions come true forget ones n't \( la jean dixon \) anyone know predictions , perhaps book mentioned , pretty definitely said come true \? fred gilham gilham csl sri com peace better war 's hell war hell makes sense walker , second coming
leonard uky edu \( leonard \) subject prayer jesus' name organization university kentucky , dept math sciences lines 34 munns cae wisc edu \( scott munns \) writes dormitory bible discussion christian roommate 2 non christian guys floor close accepting christ , started disciple \( treat like baby believers \) go subjects parables , etc first discussion prayer eventually , got around pray jesus' name , excellent question came , one n't real answer question , need pray jesus' name , people jesus \? prayed god listened , spite sins ca n't way \? 'll take try discussions , interpreted bible , feel one pray either way remember , jesus , people talked god \( way \) talked back \( audible dreams , etc \) today bible know gods , son died us given savior , still things according gods , pray son bible says known jesus , known god \( sorry verses \) , granted eternal life , must present jesus first , present us god leonard space intentionally left blank
vm cc purdue edu \( kerry stephenson \) subject request research subjects organization purdue university lines 14 please excuse interruption seeking pro life activists fill 13 page questionnaire , opinions , activities would willing participate research , please email privately bitnet replies made anonymous prior printout kept confidential thank much help kerry purdue note n't normally accept postings abortion n't invitation discussion group clh
holfeltz lstc2vm stortek com subject organization storagetek sw engineering lines 19 aaron bryce cardenas writes basically prophet 's writings make old testament , apostles' writings make new testament writings , recorded bible , foundation church hayesstw risc1 unisa ac za \( steve hayes \) writes seems peculiar interpretation text apostles prophets people , rather writings new testament prophets well , built churches remember ot doctrine 2 witnesses \? perhaps prophets testified coming apostles , testified came , prophesy mean \? secondly , apostle \? answer witness one suppose personal witness means true apostle , one must christ appear lets see church quit claiming \?
petch gvg47 gvg tek com \( chuck petch \) subject daily verse organization grass valley group , grass valley , ca lines 4 devoted one another love honor one another romans 12 10
hudson athena cs uga edu \( paul hudson jr \) subject revelations organization university georgia , athens lines 29 article apr 9 01 11 00 1993 athos rutgers edu ! tom tredysvr tredydev unisys com \( tom albrecht \) writes , suggestion prophecy tends somewhat cyclical , elaborate \? i'm exactly sure mean suggestion relate isaiah 's prophecy birth christ virgin \? n't see cycles prophecy maybe cyclical best word one aspect case virgin birth prophecy , applied , also christ army threatened king would cease threat short time yet also prophecied christ several prophecies refered christ also application time made egypt called son refers israel , christ heathen rage said david also christ another example would scripture quoted judas , let another take another example something isaiah said disciples also applied christ hebrews , children thou hast given view account phenomenon link link hudson
mussack austin ibm com \( christopher mussack \) subject sin organization ibm austin lines 29 article apr 8 00 59 20 1993 athos rutgers edu , cwis unomaha edu \( jill anne \) writes exactly definition sin examples person know committing sin \? anything bring closer god sin \( think strict , consider ambiguous \) implies staying sin christian never satisfied imply fun sin imply sleeping sin imply sin every day perhaps simpler definition anything counter two great commandments love god , love neighbor , sin anything love sin action sin sometimes sin sometimes could yell kids discipline , time loving , considering teach proper behavior , could yell kids anger selfishness could post excellent article interested sharing opinions getting feedback learning , could post article want everyone realize wise chris mussack
jkellett netcom com \( joe kellett \) subject opinions asked rejection organization netcom lines 22 william mayne \( mayne pipe cs fsu edu \) wrote article apr 1 02 34 21 1993 athos rutgers edu jayne mmalt guild org \( jayne kulikauskas \) writes people reject god n't want heaven spend lives choosing either god force us must say shocked impression jayne usually writes much less offensive ludicrous saying offensiveness intentional , clear something christians consider jayne stands pretty good company c lewis wrote whole book promoting idea contained first sentence quoted called final divorce excellent book subject heaven hell , highly recommended 's allegory souls invited , indeed enter heaven , reject offer god heaven means giving false pride joe kellett jkellett netcom com
hudson athena cs uga edu \( paul hudson jr \) subject prophetic warning new york city organization university georgia , athens lines 65 article apr 9 01 10 38 1993 athos rutgers edu spot colorado edu \( thomas randall \) writes brings around asking open question bible closed book scripture \? okay us go around saying god told jesus told \? would n't imply god still pouring new revelation us \? know people feel okay , concept closed canon would certainly cast shadow contemporary prophets hand , open canon seems indicated sometimes lot people running around saying god told god told days people really heard god , others heard glands mario mentioned sermon said someone told , lord gave song said worst song ever heard know gave song , said , n't want anymore god still speak people today , idea contrary idea closed cannon wrote gifts spirit church day \( 2nd 3rd century \) one first put forth new testament cannon , almost identical one today believed closed cannon many prophets prophesied prophecies recorded scriptures example , one prophet kings , whose name starts prophecied king would lose battle prophecy gave recorded scripture , given prophecies king complained heard prophecy , never prophesies anything good yet one little paragraph lifetime prophecies recorded scripture numerous examples prophet , acts says , even sent apostle yet writings recorded scripture two prophecies mentioned scripture already prophet gave prophecy may genuine god , make scripture also interesting note called prophecies nothing new rather inspired translation scripture right call prophecy \? misleading \? would n't knowledge \? n't know translations scripture , familiar prophecies give applications scripture also similar examples bible several times peter interprets prophecies seemingly prophetic way , example , let another take concerning judas office clearer example found matthew 24 jesus happen return quotes passage joel sun darkened moon turning blood scriptural prophecy used later prophecy sometimes sort thing cross word knowledge , gifts spirit seem overlap words knowledge wisdom overlap word knowledge prophecy overlap interpretation tounges similar prophecy often considered miracles sometimes distinction gifts bit hazy imho , n't usually matter much able label phenomenon , long recognize work spirit , use according leading link hudson
conditt tsd arlut utexas edu \( paul conditt \) subject christians aids organization applied research laboratories , university texas austin lines 98 article apr 8 00 57 49 1993 athos rutgers edu marka travis csd harris com \( mark ashley \) writes article apr 7 01 55 33 1993 athos rutgers edu kevin pictel pictel com \( kevin davis \) writes many christians believe abstinence , moment overcome desire compromise rationalize poor choices \( sin \) last week guilty anger , jealousy , whole mess stuff , yet forgiven condemned suffer aids even suggest aids deserved ludicrous rules made point man stupid know better yet , eventually man learns getting lesson experience yes , 's important realize actions consequences , rules made good suggest disease punishment certain types sin think taking things much far got kind mouth disease lying , would us mouths left \? developed blindness every time someone something \? dare say us would walking walls wonder aids would problem people n't get involved deviant sexual behaviour certainly , people received tainted blood blame goes show mankind affected actions yes , sin terrible consequences , need real careful saying consequences punishment sin jews jesus 's time believed sickness result sin jesus healed blind man said man blind show glory god , sin aids , std punishment sexual sin , diseases like cancer , multiple sclerosis , terrible aids , yet usually linked specific behavior lifestyle \? addition , imho forgiveness end things still matter atonement aids \? n't know atonement extremely important , think 've missed mark far suggesting aids atonement sin atonement sin jesus christ period central message gospel perfect sacrifice required sins , made lamb god sacrifice atoned sins , past present future god require sins , require us come atonement graciously already done us suggest aids consequence atonement sins literally spitting sacrifice jesus made case could n't tell , get extremely angry upset see things like instead rationalizing fears phobias , need reaching people aids socially unacceptable diseases whether got disease actions irrelevant still need jesus christ , less 've said , think 's good analogy people aids modern day jesus healed many also heal people aids , maybe earth , ultimate sense next door neighbor aids recently come much deeper committed relationship god theology n't would want , god 's grace covers amazing thing gaining weight \( 's disease 2 years \) health excellent apart skin rashes attributes improvement health god 's intervention life suggest disease kind punishment \? seems god glorified disease paul overstreet , country singer , good song title think applies us grace god , go \( something like \) may experience accept god 's grace mark ashley disclaimer opinions expressed marka gcx1 ssd csd harris com ! uunet ! gcx1 ! marka reflect opinion policies lost los angelino harris corporation paul conditt internet conditt titan tsd arlut utexas edu applied research phone \( 512 \) 835 fax \( 512 \) 835 laboratories fedex 10000 road , austin , texas university texas postal p box , austin , texas austin , texas wonderful place texas live ttt ttt ttt ttt texas tech lady raiders tt ttt tt 1992 93 champions ttt 1992 93 ncaa national champions ttt
harwood umiacs umd edu \( david harwood \) subject essene new testament organization umiacs , university maryland , college park , md 20742 lines 11 william christie asked essene nt andrew kille collection gospels usually goes name essene gospel peace derived gnostics , , ostensibly translations syriac texts fourth fifth centuries \( vaguely recall ca n't find copy right \) clh recent criticism listserv academic biblical scholars say book \( \) modern h
petch gvg47 gvg tek com \( chuck petch \) subject anybody \? organization grass valley group , grass valley , ca lines 30 seldom see posts group anyone christendom listening \? , n't get dialog going \? 's topic get things started daughter 's christian school sends home weekly update school related topics week sent something interesting article written leader national \( us \) christian school organization trip recently made jerusalem , introduced one rabbis working project rebuild temple jerusalem article included photos many furnishings already made preparation rebuilt temple according specifications given bible even striking fact plans temple complete group awaiting permission israeli government beginning building startling fact recent discovery original site temple available building previously thought original site underneath mosque , making rebuilding impossible without holy war appears nothing stands way rebuilding resuming sacrifices , scriptures indicate happen last days although israeli government give permission start , think hand god holding project ready let happen brothers sisters , time hand redemption drawing near look ! postings range 30 50 per day , except weekends people n't seeing , 've got propagation problems clh
daniels math ufl edu \( tv 's big dealer \) subject prayer jesus' name organization lines 5 hmm makes wonder whether prayer jesus' name means saying jesus' name whether 're simply things attitude belong jesus frank
rolfe dsuvax dsu edu \( tim rolfe \) subject lazarus smell like \? lines 15 discussion jesus spoke aloud lazarus , come , i'm surprised one noticed verse immediately preceeding jn 12 41 father , thank listening , though knew always listen said sake people standing around may believe made messenger \( translation \) guess lazarus , come ! also sake crowd tim rolfe rolfe dsuvax dsu edu rolfe junior dsu edu columbia dsu edu
luomat alleg edu \( timothy j luoma \) subject really rise \? \? \? reply luomat alleg edu organization allegheny college lines 53 article apr 9 01 11 16 1993 athos rutgers edu emery tc fluke com \( john emery \) writes much excellent post deleted space \) suffering persecution meant believer , \) would quite probable least one supposed conspiracy \) would come forward confess whole thing big hoax yet \) one seems rather reasonable disciples make \) resurrection sincerely believed jesus actually risen \) dead especially light sufferings came upon \) believed jubilee conference year pittsburgh pa , speaker spoke well talked many things mentioned post , went little detail 'll paraphrase best suppose part going tell people christ risen never mind stoning , burned alive , possible crucifixion let 's talk whip would used would broken , metal , bone , anything else could find attached would stood facing wall , nothing protect whip hit first time , would tear flesh instant incredibly intense pain would think lie \? ' second hit would drop knees , would scream agony raw back torn would say lie \? ' 37 coming third hit would scream lie , beg stop , tell would swear life lie , would stop amazing enough believed kept faith torture lie \? one fool enough one came forward excellent post john , thanks taking time tj luoma luomat alleg edu god merciful fought good fight , sinner st luke finished course , live christ , kept faith 2 tim die gain philippians 1 21
virginia edu \( quinn \) subject questions newbie organization university virginia lines 56 life pass fail course , god grade curve \? i'm new , vaguely religious , want know people think specifically , infinite number heavens , person goes one deserves \? simply heaven nothing \( hell \? \) also , graded around us , always unchanging method \? person 's childhood taken account \? i'm sure must sound like , figure 're experts quinn eschatology area christians agree suspect 's primary source information prophets , writings tend highly symbolic however jesus' teachings gospels books revelation john talk primarily difference eternal life eternal death number occasions jesus say things imply sort , e g lk 10 14 number similar passages jesus says things like even xxx better judgement also , cor 3 talks someone gets heaven , skin teeth , passages normally interpreted suggesting separate heavens , much differing levels prestige punishment heaven hell \( christians would even go far \) christian group know believes multiple heavens mormons , far mainstream christianity \( far enough many readers would call christian \) ideas area involve specific mormon revelations , addition bible holy tradition generic christian sort note many christians cringe thought associating grading god whole point christ free us results test could n't possibly pass like test analogies , god grades strict scale , also cheats replaces test papers exam prepared teacher , actually grading people end heaven others hell , 's easy see 'd inclined think grading differences among branches christianity details , think agree one way another , god cheats personally sceptical anyone claims know exactly far god 's cheating extends accept people n't explicitly acknowledge christ , somehow still follow hearts \? many christians believe possible , least principle , certainly jesus provided us clear description saved , 's clear provided exact description 's going place dividing line certainly made clear ca n't expect know whether individuals saved clh
reid cs uiuc edu \( jon reid \) subject prophetic warning new york city organization university illinois , dept comp sci , urbana , il lines 66 spot colorado edu \( thomas randall \) writes yes , suppose true people make mistakes interesting note long ago ot days , n't 100 correct prophecies , people got mad longer believed , even put death one differences ot prophecy nt prophecy nt , expected believers gather , people prophesy prophecy must judged \( 1 cor 14 29 \) nothing killing someone makes mistake say make mistakes true say make mistakes filled spirit true true , entire bible , written men inspired god would subject also errors , prophecy like revelations given scripture \? scripture scripture gift scripture n't know , know made mistakes filled spirit n't give grace allow people make mistakes , never grow use spiritual gifts ! minister small group , encourage people speak impressions images think might lord trying know whether right wrong either case , 'll better handle next time n't fall learning ride bicycle \? kept trying , learned failures successes spiritual gifts different get better experience brings around asking open question bible closed book scripture \? okay us go around saying god told jesus told \? would n't imply god still pouring new revelation us \? know people feel okay , concept closed canon would certainly cast shadow contemporary prophets hand , open canon seems indicated sometimes canon scripture complete mean god longer speaks \? heard voice \( though \) , clearly nonetheless heard equivalent scripture \? never heard contemporary prophets claim receive lord level scripture contrary , mature obey scriptures submitting prophecies fellow believers judgement reliable judging prophecies , certainly , scriptures canon closed god silent ! also interesting note called prophecies nothing new rather inspired translation scripture right call prophecy \? misleading \? would n't knowledge \? know , gift knowledge may exciting talk , n't call horse horse \? matter called \? question label , receive words knowledge , incidentally , similar prophecy \( sometimes two overlap \) , generally supernatural knowledge fact could known otherwise jon reid fool gives cannot keep reid cs uiuc edu gain cannot lose jim elliot
hall vice ico tek com \( hal f lillywhite \) subject ancient books organization tektronix inc , beaverton , lines 106 sent something believe got lost weekend accident moderator described improved version anyway loss first time hl standard work detecting forgeries ancient documents probably writing friedrich , und , und , vol 1 der \( beck , 1886 \) portions described nibley , prophetic book op mormon , pp 219 242 \( slc book , 1989 \) \( want attempt reading nibley describes typical german scholar claims little knowledge subject , proceeds exhaust subject reader \) nibley 's extract 's work form rules makes interesting reading confess read 's work , nibley 's extract thereof german falls far short would required far know english translation available however , believe techniques describes known widely enough competent classical scholar could examine purportedly ancient document least determine consistent one would expect genuine document time frame able prove wrote least able determine reasonable confidence time culture later forgery actually 2 types purportedly ancient documents 1 alleged actual early copies thereof example dead sea scrolls tested various scientific means determine age paper , inks , objects found provide pretty clear dating actual physical objects 2 documents claiming copies ancient works although copy may much recent example might find document monks claim copy something centuries ago \( perhaps even several generations \) problem still tested \( although test likely simple \) cannot expect test age physical objects tell us much must confine testing text important remember none tests tell us document really claims date document identify culture origin example 've heard letter supposed written jesus king iraq document actually turn scholars could date paper ink \( assuming \) could check language , content writing style see consistent would expected palestinian jew time however even test results positive way determine jesus actually wrote would know time culture came \( barring known sample jesus handwriting clues comparison \) scholarship must stop seldom way determine actual author say , i'm expert 's work remember tests applied alleged copies ancient works specifically might ask 1 document internally consistent \? contradict \? work short would relatively easy maintain internal consistency , even forgery longer forgery difficult maintain consistency reason successful stick short documents 2 consistent history geography time \? short , non specific work might writing significant length latter day would able escape detection look minor , inconspicuous things someone culture would get right without even thinking later would find numerous trivial check devil details 3 literary style work , figures speech etc ancient writer would almost certainly speak ways seem strange us odd phrases book \? fit culture \? course complications document translated , possibly even somebody updated language copied cases language culture claimed may allowed recent copies cause problems reduce certainty sure n't necessarily prove forgery tests quite effective \( given enough material work \) easy require skills historian , linguist , etc questions ask , every aspect document consistent know culture claimed origin \? things n't fit significant \? problem areas due lack knowledge , later changes really significant \? often ambiguity since never know everything culture end result testing occasionally certain \( particularly case ancient copies \) however often may probability indication document \( maybe parts \) probably authentic \( sometimes maybe parts later additions \) often unsettling generation raised tv problems solved 30 60 minutes time commercials , however , real world scholarship offer
! karl anasazi com \( karl \) subject christian dirty word \? organization anasazi inc phx az usa lines 73 article mar 25 03 53 08 1993 athos rutgers edu usceast cs scarolina edu moss cs scarolina edu \( james moss \) writes brought christian , christian longer also bad taste mouth christianity \( faith \) accept live life many teachings christ , cannot let called christian , beacuse many things done name christianity , associated question give name organization philosophy political movement , etc , never anything evil done name \? 're missing central teaching christianity man inherently sinful saved faith grace knowing , believing , make us without sin furthermore , consider christians \( even manage head churches \) everyone says , 'lord , lord , ' enter kingdom heaven , father heaven matt 7 21 also problem bible , seems many people edited original documents fit world views , thereby leaving bible unbelievable source , historical documents trust \? think hannibal crossed alps \? know \? know sure \? historical documents stood scrutiny attempts dis credit well bible \? n't dislike christians \( except wo n't quit witnessing , matter many times tell stop \) , christian faith organized religion never \( far see moment \) get support well , 's really shame feel way one believing , try probably succeed driving away need ask difficult questions 1 \) afterlife , , man require salvation attain answer yes , next question 2 \) man attain salvation eastern religions certain modern offshoots like new age movement teach require god 's help \? 3 \) latter , form indeed , form help come \? needless say , discussion could take lifetime , people comprise life 's writings , hardly position offer answers merely pointers ask , us manage faith entire lives \( certainly \) life difficult journey \( 've never read pilgrim 's progress , highly recommend greatest allegory english language \) peace love god \( ess \) 's name james moss see close one possible source trouble may conflict beliefs religious upbringing wrote \( faith \) accept live life many teachings christ well , christ referred god father , mother , god us humans possess chromosome , honor god refer female purely trendy , non discriminatory , politically correct way women \( intent use male pronoun refer men women english decent set \) , god chose woman human partner bringing christ human population well , i'm launch detailed discussion role women christianity 6 hours sleep last 63 , reason also apologize shortcomings article happened across felt moved reply hope may given , anyone else finds similar frame mind , something contemplate karl
dleonar andy bgsu edu \( pixie \) subject arrogance christians organization hell lines 35 article apr 7 01 55 50 1993 athos rutgers edu , vbv r2d2 eeap cwru edu \( virgilio \( dean \) b velasco jr \) wrote affirm absolutes scripture , arrogant moralists , believe god truth , revealed truth word , therefore hold precious strategic importance absolutes pardon , humble atheist , exactly difference holding revealed truth blind faith basis \( e regardless evidence may find contrary \) absolute truth , fully expecting people believe arrogance \? sound like one nearly every time meet christian \( matter , theist \) tries convert , find proven see wisdom whatsoever words , pixie p sincerely believe god exists , follow blindly \? words question authority mean anything \? defy theist reply
gsu0033 uxa ecn bgu edu \( eric molas \) subject accepting jeesus heart organization educational computing network lines 59 firstly , atheist posting immature flame start , rather express opinion intended audience meaning existence question ask daily live fear happen die bet lips , think i'm person edge accepting jeezus raised religious atmosphere , attended 13 years religious educational institutions know bible well well recognize many passages memory strong opinions start 1 \) human animal , due advanced mental facilities , developed religious solution explain unexplainable \( example ancient greeks believed apollo drove chariot across sky day real due advancement technology , know false christianity infectious cult reasons flourishes 1 \) gives people without hope driven purpose life safety blanked hide behind oh wow follow christian moral standard get eternal happiness found jeezus , many brink \? digress reason christianity flourishes infectious nature best friend mine entered christian group within months , set ministry guidelines basicaly said priority 1 spread word animals need sleep , food , reproduce die religion \( especially christianity \) nothing drug people use drugs escape reality christians inject jeezus live high many millions lives lost religious wars , christianity small part christians see non believer , say person blind truth , cannot realize live mask day jesus prophet happened large influence time romans \( circa \) jewish population communities needed sort element keep strong time dire need must go thoughts christianity damien knight doom 've acquired taste blood adopted lifestyle doesnt mean i'm vampire
caralv caralv auto trol com \( carol alvin \) subject arrogance christians lines 37 vbv r2d2 eeap cwru edu \( virgilio \( dean \) b velasco jr \) writes thought 'd share words received letter moody bible institute couple months ago words james stowell , president day , dry cleaner radio playing caught attention talk show guest criticizing evangelical christians , saying believe absolutes think ones know absolutes missed point , imo , mr stowell missed point affirm absolutes scripture , arrogant moralists , believe god truth , revealed truth word , therefore hold precious strategic importance absolutes mr stowell seems jumped rather strangely truth absolutes n't see necessarily follows truths also absolutes \? scripture truths \( therefore absolutes \) \? answer either questions , perhaps explain determine parts scripture truths , truths absolutes , qualified make \? hardly consensus , even evangelical christianity \( mention rest christianity \) regarding biblical interpretation find mr stowell 's statement terribly simple minded carol alvin caralv auto trol com
pacbell com \( wilson heydt \) subject ancient books organization pacific bell , san , ca lines 21 article apr 9 01 11 35 1993 athos rutgers edu , cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) writes , since manuscripts close actual event , especially compared ancient non christian history , could help show accurate copies original texts \? 's weak argument due lack \( regard critical events \) independent supporting texts dating oldest extant texts nt would feel us civil war couple thousand years extant text written \? adjust largely illiterate population , one every copy manuscript done hand hal hal heydt analyst , pacific bell think system working , 510 823 ask someone 's waiting prompt pacbell com
bucknell edu \( meyers bucknell edu \) subject doug organization bucknell university , , pa lines 3 anyone familiar doug \? , please post think
jayne mmalt guild org \( jayne kulikauskas \) subject technology organization kulikauskas home lines 28 mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) writes computer one 's responsibilities disappear people net real slander deception carried net wrong would carried paper face face well said , michael ! catholic list behaviours called spiritual works mercy sinner instruct ignorant counsel doubtful comfort bear wrongs patiently forgive injury pray living dead \( yes , know controversy n't want argue \) things direct application usenet people ask questions express doubts need comfort prayers imagine would happen flame wars bore wrongs patiently injuries would add probably appropriate private email publicly jayne kulikauskas jayne mmalt guild org
jayne mmalt guild org \( jayne kulikauskas \) subject post organization kulikauskas home lines 30 jono mac ak 24 rtsg mot com \( jon ogden \) writes advice know someone hots christian , try develop friendship time , witness share gospel , date , saved become christian , quite possible let relationship progress beyond friendship however , n't accept christ , still good friendship n't wasted lot emotional energy gotten hurt agree jon says \( deleted parts , course \) , serious reservations advice maintaining level relationship much easier said done people usually end getting hurt especially likely happen start feelings attraction people feel attracted feelings cloud judgement 've experience going quickly believing n't date non christians believing dating man would okay believing sex fine people really love relationship ended beliefs immediately returned original state especially extreme case young away home fellowship n't think would work exactly way people however , 's important underestimate power feelings attraction jayne kulikauskas jayne mmalt guild org
jayne mmalt guild org \( jayne kulikauskas \) subject pantheism environmentalism organization kulikauskas home lines 31 kevxu cunyvm bitnet writes deleted first paragraph mention pantheism pantheism perverted dangerous , one 's cup tea \? none clear ca n't speak mr , understood comment refer idea unrecognized pantheism dangerous christians adopt ideas opposed christianity , pervert faith clearly recognize pantheism encounter opportunity embrace consistent christianity reject n't need alert , always thinking questioning must examine underlying assumptions every book read , tv program watch socio political movement participate ideas important philosophies doctrines give form events lives basis live lives love service command love god one 's mind means fuzzy headed drifting idea idea style living rarely called appropriate name greed one christian acknowledges pope frequent theme writings indeed , thoughtful christians traditions recognize place lives christians perversion dangerous faith thank , jack , pointing parallel jayne kulikauskas jayne mmalt guild org
jayne mmalt guild org \( jayne kulikauskas \) subject easter 's name \? \( new testament double standard \? organization kulikauskas home lines 22 seanna bnr ca \( seanna \( \) watson \) writes quebec french , word celebration resurrection pa ques etymologically related pesach \( passover \) pascal lamb french canadian \( mostly roman catholic \) celebration better uses right name \? parents' seder noticed labelling one packages english , hebrew french phrase kosher passover french word used pa ques 've deliberately kulikauskas home keep referring foods kosher easter \) back original questions thread concerning christians jewish descent law always wonder see posts subject whether writers christians jewish descent relating life decisions god led people take academic interest topic \( known seanna since nine years old , know case \) admit answer question affects amount weight give writer 's statement jayne kulikauskas jayne mmalt guild org
jenk microsoft com \( jen kilmer \) subject sex education organization microsoft corporation lines 27 article apr 7 23 20 08 1993 athos rutgers edu mprc troi cc rochester edu \( price \) writes apr 5 23 31 32 1993 athos rutgers edu jenk microsoft com \( jen kilmer \) writes method expected actual failure rate failure rate abstinence 0 0 figures n't seem take account rape woman raped considered \? longer textbook , abstinence defined something like contact penis vagina , , area immediately surrounding , transfer semen vagina , , area surrounding , abstinence n't discussed sex outside marriage morally wrong keep sperm away conception impossible moral question recall teacher asking , okay create child n't able good parent yet \? jen include stdisclaimer jenk microsoft com msdos testing
halsall murray fordham edu \( paul halsall \) subject weirdness early christians reply halsall murray fordham edu organization j random misconfigured site lines 76 good catholic boy convert less , attracted rational tradition aquinas et al emotional authenticity comp roman catholicism never much time pope , , believe system always felt quite happy look nose john emery posts back engage textual arguments prove faith , entirely oblivious fact dozen faiths miracles , since arguments depend belief bible god 's sole revelation , good logic argue bible proved god , happy accept church god 's revelation church existed bible , church choose grace course canon scripture protestant , thought , shown protestants acceptance luther 's right reject dozen books disliked recently read peter brown 's body society well researched , well written raises upsetting questions early christians weird even today 's fundies odd views sex , views body , totally ludicrous views demons , distinctly views human beings question first christians weird , 've got used , pristine fall church happen within one generation certainly wait triumph church constantine , wha say god 's promise always support church 's use throwing usual protestant church organization 's community nothing , early communities weird church model sanity comparison would interested serious catholic orthodox responses entirely serious issue i'm sure issue protestants soul alone jesus approach , see time space , weird early christians problem exaggeration protestant view many protestants strong appreciation role church soul alone god certainly important protestants , 's means whole story read sort history talk point , protestants n't quite problem , believe church fall point however protestant mythology typically places fall around time constantine \( likely , regard happening sort cumulative fashion , starting constantine getting worse pope accumulated power medieval period \) consequences earlier somewhat worrisome even us protestants accept theological results early ecumenical councils , including items trinity incarnation indeed works reformers luther calvin , 'll find church fathers augustine quoted time think 'll find many protestants resistant idea early church whole wierd \( additional problem protestants n't much want talk context , since 's looked recently 's question whether one really think augustine fathers proto protestants views mary , authority pope , etc , entirely congenial protestant thought \) one thing somewhat worries question methodology certainly plenty wierd people early church concerns may see see every christian martyrdom think 's good reason believe ordinary christians prudent see heroic think 's good reason think many christians happily married ca n't help early church range sane people think 's also certain level revisionism active history moment n't mean 're manufacturing things whole cloth n't think might tendency emphasize novel \? clh
mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) subject hell organization ai programs , university georgia , athens lines 22 moderator say qualms giving explanation , raises additional problems god source existence , complete separation would make existence impossible , god maintain enough connection rejected keep existence punish \? short poem \( god mercy made fixed pains hell \) , c lewis expresses idea i'm sure current among others , n't able find source even hell expression mercy , god limits amount separation , hence amount agony , one achieve michael covington internet mcovingt ai uga edu artificial intelligence programs phone 706 542 0358 university georgia fax 706 542 0349 athens , georgia 30602 7415 u amateur radio n4tmi
mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) subject really rise \? \? \? organization ai programs , university georgia , athens lines 14 two historic facts think important \( 1 \) jesus n't rise dead , must done something else equally impressive , order create observed amount impact \( 2 \) nobody ever displayed dead body jesus , even though jewish roman authorities would gained lot \( would discredited christians \) michael covington internet mcovingt ai uga edu artificial intelligence programs phone 706 542 0358 university georgia fax 706 542 0349 athens , georgia 30602 7415 u amateur radio n4tmi
mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) subject legitimate humor sex education 's joke ! organization ai programs , university georgia , athens lines 28 article apr 8 01 01 06 1993 athos rutgers edu anu edu au \( \) writes well , son , best advice give eat lot ! oh , really think work \? ! \? intercourse \? instead , son , instead ! disclaimer single catholic n't business post kind joke group , found inappropriate wrong \? wo n't anyone kind sin , far tell n't belittle anyone substitute offensiveness humor \( 's genuinely funny \) n't assume jokes mention sexuality dirty merely many never mistake spirituality direct opposite symptom lack healthy perspective god 's creation michael covington internet mcovingt ai uga edu artificial intelligence programs phone 706 542 0358 university georgia fax 706 542 0349 athens , georgia 30602 7415 u amateur radio n4tmi
noye midway uchicago edu \( vera shanti noyes \) subject easter 's name \? \( new testament double standard \? reply noye midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 26 article apr 10 05 33 25 1993 athos rutgers edu jayne mmalt guild org \( jayne kulikauskas \) writes seanna bnr ca \( seanna \( \) watson \) writes quebec french , word celebration resurrection pa ques etymologically related pesach \( passover \) pascal lamb french canadian \( mostly roman catholic \) celebration better uses right name \? parents' seder noticed labelling one packages english , hebrew french phrase kosher passover french word used pa ques 've deliberately kulikauskas home keep referring foods kosher easter \) however , word pa ques french word easter ask , whether quebec paris besides , n't heard phrase paschal lamb \( meaning jesus \) \? sorry trivial part thread \) vera clock ! bind unto today vera noyes religion ! strong name noye midway uchicago edu ! trinity disclaimer lard st patrick 's breastplate disclaim \?
xx155 yfn ysu edu \( family magazine sysops \) subject witness proof resurrection reply xx155 yfn ysu edu \( family magazine sysops \) organization st elizabeth hospital , youngstown , oh lines 143 h e w n e p r f f j e u c h r ' r e u r r e c n f r h e e witness lord jesus christ mark 8 31 began teach son man must suffer many things rejected elders chief priests scribes , killed , three days rise mark 9 31 teaching disciples telling , son man delivered hands men , kill killed , rise three days later mark 10 34 mock spit upon , scourge , kill , three days later rise mark 12 26 regarding fact dead rise , read book moses , passage burning bush , god spoke , saying , 'i god abraham , god isaac , god \? luke 18 33 , kill third day rise luke 24 46 said , thus written , christ suffer rise dead third day john 11 25 jesus said , resurrection life believes shall live even dies , john 20 9 yet understand scripture , must rise dead acts 17 3 explaining giving evidence christ suffer rise dead , saying , jesus proclaiming christ witness apostle paul 1 corinthians 15 1 26 1 make known , brethren , gospel preached , also received , also stand , 2 also saved , hold fast word preached , unless believed vain 3 delivered first importance also received , christ died sins according scriptures , 4 buried , raised third day according scriptures , 5 appeared , twelve 6 appeared five hundred brethren one time , remain , fallen asleep 7 appeared james , apostles 8 last , one born , appeared also 9 least apostles , fit called apostle , persecuted church god 10 grace god , grace toward prove vain even , yet , grace god 11 whether , preach believed 12 christ preached , raised dead , among say resurrection dead \? 13 resurrection dead , even christ raised 14 christ raised , preaching vain , faith also vain 15 moreover even found false witnesses god , witnessed god raised christ , raise , fact dead raised 16 dead raised , even christ raised 17 christ raised , faith worthless still sins 18 also fallen asleep christ perished 19 hoped christ life , men 20 christ raised dead , first fruits asleep 21 since man came death , man also came resurrection dead 22 adam die , also christ shall made alive 23 order christ first fruits , christ 's coming , 24 comes end , delivers kingdom god father , abolished rule authority power 25 must reign put enemies feet 26 last enemy abolished death logical proofs jesus resurrection 1 jesus 's enemies would stolen body would perpetrated resurrection opposite desired 2 jesus' disciples could stolen body pilate established guards stand watch tomb lest body stolen 3 sadly \( ironically \) , many jesus' disciples believe resurrection jesus risen dead 4 nearly 20 centuries , body ever produced refute jesus' assertion would indeed rise dead 5 probability able hoax successfully upon entire world nearly 20 centuries negative !
rolfe dsuvax dsu edu \( tim rolfe \) subject quality catholic liturgy lines 56 apr 10 05 30 16 1993 athos rutgers edu jemurray magnus acs ohio state edu \( john e murray \) writes would like opinion netters subject bothering wife lately liturgy , particular , catholic liturgy last years seems ad hoc events mass 's driving crazy ! grace filled aspect liturgical tradition happens something together , know led priest , course , makes kind dialogue present god best masses 've prayers lived kicking screaming 60s 70s catholics invited participate liturgy instead counting mass , find comment interesting massively longer tradition proclaiming passion accounts without active participation know latin , one really beautiful way hear passion 's chanted three chants middle baritone range , jesus chants bass , others directly quoted handled high tenor actually basis common proclamation passion john would prefer always judgement call based pastoral considerations pastor makes decisions \( n't church wide conspiracy participation \) palm sunday liturgy , initial blessing distribution palms procession , already getting long get passion pastors feel make people stand long narrative also , orchestrated proclamation multiple readers public participation crowd quotations runs longer single reader proclamation churches multiple masses sunday , might necessary go options get 'em get 'em parish different catholics longer tied geographic parishes possible another catholic parish columbus area \( based ohio state address \) liturgy closer preferences talk fellow see common preferences pastors generally willing listen non confrontational requests though probably bring along case reacts strongly shock people asked longer sunday mass perhaps problem recent liturgical development n't follow continuous evolution model \( accumulation small changes , single one hard take \) rather equilibrium model \( things stay get accustomed , marked mutation hits \) apologies mis remembering names evolutionary theories tim rolfe rolfe dsuvax dsu edu rolfe junior dsu edu columbia dsu edu
shellgate ! llo uu4 psi com \( larry l overacker \) subject christians aids organization shell oil lines 49 article apr 8 00 57 49 1993 athos rutgers edu marka travis csd harris com \( mark ashley \) writes article apr 7 01 55 33 1993 athos rutgers edu kevin pictel pictel com \( kevin davis \) writes many christians believe abstinence , moment overcome desire compromise rationalize poor choices \( sin \) last week guilty anger , jealousy , whole mess stuff , yet forgiven condemned suffer aids even suggest aids deserved ludicrous man told sex relatives , listen \? ! man found ! 's point \? mark 's comment still valid suggest aids deserved ludicrous sin resolve abstain sin , weekly \( often , actually \) yet routinely fail surely deserve get , yet god provided incarnate logos , jesus , way situation aids deserved , surely deserve instant death much , , st paul us willingly judge others deserving punishment seems height arrogance lack humility wonder aids would problem people n't get involved deviant sexual behaviour certainly , people received tainted blood blame goes show mankind affected actions 's point \? get aids never engage deviant sexual behavior fact , could engage lots deviant sexual behavior hiv people never infected aids consequence particular behaviors , many sexual sexual behaviors carry risk transmission addition , imho forgiveness end things still matter atonement aids \? n't know end things know , love serve god , growing daily closer prayer , meditation discipline even could get aids anyone could , unless remain forever celibate , iv drug free , transfusion free larry overacker \( llo shell com \) lawrence overacker shell oil company , information center houston , tx \( 713 \) 245 2965 llo shell com
aaronc athena mit edu \( aaron bryce cardenas \) subject christians aids organization massachusetts institute technology lines 94 paul conditt writes yes , 's important realize actions consequences , rules made good suggest disease punishment certain types sin think taking things much far text deleted yes , sin terrible consequences , need real careful saying consequences punishment sin wish followed thread jumping conclusions n't seen anybody write aids punishment certain types sin \( includes mark ashley responding \) wrote n't things god 's way curses come others although one definition , meant used word god loves us told us best way live bible god n't cause curses , warns us kevin davis wrote \( ago \) last week guilty anger , jealousy , whole mess stuff , yet forgiven condemned suffer aids even suggest aids deserved ludicrous bible makes clear equally deserve death \( much worse aids \) hurt god sin paul conditt reveals feelings case could n't tell , get extremely angry upset see things like instead rationalizing fears phobias , need reaching people aids socially unacceptable diseases whether got disease actions irrelevant still need jesus first issue bring anger obvious ly wrong angry \( gal 5 19 20 \) reason , especially extremely angry par hatred jesus every reason angry us putting cross sin , yet prayer forgive father , know knowing forgiving jesus calls forgiving everyone love please n't give anger , cause foolish bad feelings 's okay read something bothers , need address loving way right , felt like someone saying god gay sexually immoral people aids deserve punishment others n't would frame response something like makes feel sad someone believe aids , simply harmful disease unlike , god 's punishment people committed certain sins god loves children equally single one comes back judged die , opportunity accept god 's grace earnestly seeking hearts , believing gospel 's testimony , repenting sin , confessing jesus lord baptism , living new life let us judge someone eternally condemned god 's arm short save anything move hardened heart misled person works good men even worst situations , set times places men may perhaps reach find second issue bring seeing people rationalize fears people aids fortunately , describe seeing actually missing points made earlier posts reacting anger attitudes n't expressed know sometimes hard discount perceptions , please try open minded quite correct saying reach people need jesus brothers sisters daily basis would like send name city state live , find get touch brothers aids know people aids live nearby see loving attitudes third issue bring importance individual contracted aids someone gets aids relevant salvation may involved important point made , however , listening god 's commands \( advice warnings \) , e sinning , causes harm misfortune others reason , good way prevent misfortune aids , transmitted sinful ways , listen god 's advice sex wife husband hope feeling better , paul love , aaron cardenas
ccu umanitoba ca \( william john christie \) subject essene new testament organization university manitoba , winnipeg , canada lines 16 apr 10 05 31 12 1993 athos rutgers edu harwood umiacs umd edu \( david harwood \) writes recent criticism listserv academic biblical scholars say book \( \) modern h discussion still current \? questioning based information presented essene nt challenges eating choices info came biased \( opposed preferences \) third party looking info whether dismiss work put consideration thanks info ! christie ! philosophy principles university manitoba uh oh science thought reality winnipeg , mb , canada i'm leaking philosopher someone thinks ccu umanitoba ca brain lubricant 're useful society
tbrent ecn purdue edu \( timothy j brent \) subject pantheism environmentalism organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 26 article apr 9 01 09 29 1993 athos rutgers edu jono mac ak 24 rtsg mot com \( jon ogden \) writes see masters planet care look judged well task c \) business spreading lies tell others must sure true check information , verify scientific fact go scientific facts \? never heard thing science never proves disproves theory history tim timothy j brent man come know true happiness , brent bank ecn purdue edu accepts small part infinite universe purdue university spinoza materials science engineering paraphrased hope n't get embroiled discussion words somebody says get facts , i'm sure need get arguments philosophy science clh
cpage two step seas upenn edu \( carter c page \) subject prayer jesus' name organization university pennsylvania lines 46 article apr 9 01 09 22 1993 athos rutgers edu munns cae wisc edu \( scott munns \) writes eventually , got around pray jesus' name , excellent question came , one n't real answer question , need pray jesus' name , people jesus \? prayed god listened , spite sins ca n't way \? day ask question truly , truly , say , shall ask father anything , give name asked nothing name ask , receive , joy may made full john 16 23 24 n't believe necessarily say christ 's name amen , prayers heard , son , acknowledge prayer made possible believe saved ot , could saved jesus would one day reconcile god man , reason prayers would heard god us become like one unclean , righteous deeds like filthy us wither like leaf , iniquities , like wind , take us away isaiah 64 6 , nas prayers like rest deeds go directly father tainted sin washing prayers christ 's blood worthy lifted father first , thank god christ jesus romans 1 8 , nas scholars believe paul recognizing even thanks father basically , prayer gift grace , believe jesus prayers power thus , praying name praises jesus beautiful powerful gift given us carter c page happiness crown part wisdom , carpenter 's apprentice hold god awe law , cpage seas upenn edu seeing stricken heart pride brought , learn old adapted sophocles
dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu \( darius lecointe \) subject easter 's name \? \( new testament double standard \? organization florida state university lines 63 seanna bnr ca \( seanna \( \) watson \) writes since day upon christians celebrate resurrection jesus approaching , thought would comment article mar 29 03 23 31 1993 athos rutgers edu dsegard nyx cs du edu \( daniel segard \) writes objection celebration easter \? celebration resurrection jesus n't recall command scripture us celebrate resurrection , sole reason christians could celebrate \? name quite correct biblical teaching expects us celebrate resurrection christ year every time someone baptized col 2 12 buried baptism , wherein also ye risen faith operation god , hath raised dead rom 6 4 therefore buried baptism death like christ raised dead glory father , even also walk newness life really want celebrate resurrection faith walk newness life baptism necessary celebrate pagan goddess process , see scripture , israel observe 7th day forever gentiles believe messiah israel welcome observe 7th day well , required since adopted commonwealth israel gentiles commonwealth israel required observe basic commands given came \( see also acts 15 \) requirements placed upon come faith messiah infer different rules christians jewish descent \? happened neither jew greek , slave free , male female , one christ jesus \? jewish christians may find certain forms worship certain disciplines meaningful cultural background , hard time understanding justification applying rules commandments justified grace faith jesus christ paul answered question romans 9 v 4 stated adoption , glory , covenants , giving law , service god , promises given israelites package deal goes identify true israelites vs 6 8 makes plain true israelites born way accept promise god paul continued emphasize israelite 2 cor 11 22 , gal 3 29 says belong christ abraham 's seed , heirs promises given israelites promises come law nothing want discard one part law \? certainly would want husband faithful believe adultery longer forbidden \? law btw please give reference statement gentiles required observe basis could list please acts 15 deals circumcision law moses added transgression god 's eternal law \( gal 3 19 rom 4 15 \) darius lecointe got ba born department educational research made anew florida state university i'm getting phd become tel \( 904 \) 644 patient , humble , disciple e mail dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu
cpage two step seas upenn edu \( carter c page \) subject accepting jeesus heart organization university pennsylvania lines 34 article apr 10 05 32 36 1993 athos rutgers edu gsu0033 uxa ecn bgu edu \( eric molas \) writes firstly , atheist \( atheist drivel deleted \) seed miraculous thing , sit shelf forever knows , 's stuck ground , makes clever draws nutrients soil 's roots , gathers force sun puts forth whole lot blossoms fruit , done programmed seed know \? put sun sky \? put food dirt roots \? told bees come \? makes water fall , refresh make everything pure \? perhaps product love , perhaps happened chance yeah , sure johnny hart , b c carter c page happiness crown part wisdom , carpenter 's apprentice hold god awe law , cpage seas upenn edu seeing stricken heart pride brought , learn old adapted sophocles
cpage two step seas upenn edu \( carter c page \) subject reason vs revelation organization university pennsylvania lines 130 article apr 8 00 58 08 1993 athos rutgers edu trajan \( stephen mcintyre \) writes article apr 2 01 58 09 1993 athos rutgers edu writes reply says 1 timothy 3 16 i'm discount parts bible rather , i'm discount notion revelation author 1 timothy told thought truth , based belief god , faith jesus resurrected son , readings old testament , revealed based \( best \) second hand information , given friends authors may given whole truth may exaggerated bit first , original poster misquoted reference 2 tim 3 16 author paul , revelations anything \( best \) second hand came saul journeyed , approaching damascus , suddenly light heaven flashed around fell ground , heard voice saying , saul , saul , persecuting \? said , art thou , lord \? said , jesus persecuting , \( acts 9 3 5 , nas \) paul received revelation directly risen jesus ! \( pretty cool , eh \? \) became closely involved early church , leaders followers jesus throughout ministry earth , may say , holy spirit revealed things unto , could go argument , 'd hard pressed convince holy spirit exists agree n't believe anyone spirit would able convince spirit exists please n't complain circular know , really , anything natural world explain supernatural \? \( revelation necessary authors bible \) additionally , written second hand info given spirit , still carries chance true spirit part god much closer source get \? greek 2 timothy sometimes translated inspired god , literally means god breathed words , god spoke actual words scriptures many theologians bible scholars \( dr james one remember hand \) get quite annoyed incompleteness inspired god way would able escape notion second hand info entire bible written god tell truth , 've studied bible extensively , yet hear scholars put forth objective evidence showing god first author collection books 's verse taken 2 timothy continuity book written span 1500 years 40 authors walks life testimony single authorship god reason , read says 1 corinthians 1 18 31 human wisdom basically says human wisdom useless compared god written learning knew jesus well know bible , 'd realize reasoned law prophets common man source claim discovered information superior bible \? certainly writings , writings gnostics third century , earliest though claim jesus human , human wisdom apostle paul set criticize yet , would embrace idea jesus wise \? jesus fully god well 's 'd assert wise realise may accept authority bible unfortunate say least , way learning god christ god 's purpose earth reading bible searching truth information , raised without knowledge god time faithful came show word share truth , living happily morally without acknowledging existence supreme , though , read bible several times entirety studied thoroughly contains truth , consider jesus one moral human beings lived \( fact , darn near guy \) 's rational reason except god 's existence please rethink last paragraph god , seems current belief , jesus either liar complete nut assert god exists , claimed god ! \( regards c lewis \) could least bit respect jesus \? conclusion , careful logically unfounded hypotheses based gut feelings text unsubstantiated claims bible take entirety throw whole book reading bible , spirit inspire writers , guides reader well cannot understand least without spirit 's guidance us god revealed spirit spirit searches things , even depths god \( 1 cor 2 10 , nas \) peace may god guide us wisdom carter c page happiness crown part wisdom , carpenter 's apprentice hold god awe law , cpage seas upenn edu seeing stricken heart pride brought , learn old adapted sophocles theologians get quite annoyed god breathed 's true greek word roots god breath however etymology n't necessarily tell word means otherwise , goodbye would religious expression \( since comes god ye \) look word actually used case word used wisdom dreams come god god breathed clh
jodfishe silver ucs indiana edu \( joseph dale fisher \) subject salvation deeds organization indiana university lines 3 another guess salvation riddle would saved joe fisher
jodfishe silver ucs indiana edu \( joseph dale fisher \) subject organization indiana university lines 14 article apr 10 05 30 35 1993 athos rutgers edu holfeltz lstc2vm stortek com writes aaron bryce cardenas writes , prophesy mean \? secondly , apostle \? answer witness one suppose personal witness means true apostle , one must christ appear lets see church quit claiming \? actually , apostle someone sent , could called apostles sense however , jesus , designated given power remember many thousands people witnessed jesus n't make apostles , though joe fisher
jodfishe silver ucs indiana edu \( joseph dale fisher \) subject revelations organization indiana university lines 34 n't contradict church last time however , use church evident many letters instance , paul talks super apostles corinthians \( 2 corinthians 11 12 \) , mentions people led away miracles , signs , wonders \( 2 thessalonians 2 9 12 \) , tells timothy clear abandon faith teach lies \( 1 timothy 4 1 3 \) search teachers suit want hear \( 2 timothy 4 3 4 \) passages go throughout letters jesus warn \( matthew 24 4 14 \) look promise last part verse 14 gospel kingdom preached whole world testimony nations , end come even today , false teachings name two well familiar non need baptism praying jesus life salvation taught dead wrong taken context verses , interpreted others , plain made way jesus taught given luke 9 23 26 luke 14 25 33 commands baptism matthew 28 18 20 church jesus founded , though , alive well 's persecuted much back \( laws wo n't allow yet \) , persecuted joe fisher peace , lou lou \( e mail vaxa stevens tech edu \) ps 42 \( 43 \) 4 ps 90 \( 91 \) 5 6 dn 3 52 90 ml 1 11 ad dei ad qui 4 15 mt 16 13 19 13 1 13 luke 10 25 37
jodfishe silver ucs indiana edu \( joseph dale fisher \) subject ancient books organization indiana university lines 8 course , 'd still recommend michael read true reasonable douglas jacoby joe fisher oh , michael , wait see dents armor faith n't since day became disciple may want try sometime 's life changing !
jodfishe silver ucs indiana edu \( joseph dale fisher \) subject sin organization indiana university lines 22 sorry taking sharon 's resp , 'd also like add verses perhaps answer second q verses 1 corinthians 6 9 10 colossians 3 5 10 knowing , 's bit tricky people normally warn however , case , conscience hardened sin 's \( hebrews 3 12 13 \) person idea \( n't care \) sinning course , sins n't know 're sinful begin take searching examining scripture find sinful repent change best question ask every circumstance judge sinful possibilities would jesus wholeheartedly point time \? know , sounds like cop , truly question joe fisher oh , missed one 1 john 1 8 2 11 , 15 23
jodfishe silver ucs indiana edu \( joseph dale fisher \) subject unity organization indiana university lines 126 article apr 8 00 59 50 1993 athos rutgers edu maarten van loon cwi nl \( maarten van loon \) writes hello fellow netters fellow christians , subject unity christians christian churches bible study group personal opinion issue , thought would nice hear opinions fellow christian brothers sisters different countries different situations background member \( orthodox \) reformed church let us say little unity 've found true parties involved disciples came church even different congregations always competing arguing one better better messages \( none put anything practice messages \) since becoming disciple , 've found travel another church movement , accepting retreat back january congregation louisville , ky came \( retreat college students \) though known even people louisville years \( become disciple previous april never church kentucky \) one keys unity love self sacrifice one area disciples stand christians also , another part unity common depth conviction 've also part christian campus fellowships focused unity churches saw churches one thing involved lack conviction everything believed could unified , n't care truth delighted getting along together problem netherlands two churches \( denominations \) characteristics confessions differences respect example matter appropriation salvation use creeds essence lot people three churches faith feel become one church , question creeds \? need creeds bible stands firmly better \? , first question congregation christ separated walls different denominations \? definitely situation according scriptures \? according scriptures , splits differences opinion going per previous note , mentioned teach falsely many means also differences opinion belief however , scripture states following directives praise , meetings harm good first place , hear come together church , divisions among , extent believe doubt differences among show god 's approval \( 1 corinthians 11 17 19 \) god show approval \? \( see acts 2 47 \) , , qualities devotion apostles teaching fellowship communion filling awe god everything common glad sincere hearts god enjoying favor people mentioned acts 2 42 47 god also shows qualities persecuted look stephen , man full faith holy spirit \( acts 6 5 \) later stoned \( acts 7 54 60 \) one say one three churches true church jesus christ \? one say church true church church perfect congregation worldwide movement yet find , closest one 've found boston church christ movement , constantly errors pointed corrected also one 've seen totally sold god problem closely related question cooperate christians two churches unity \? question especially important think one church true one cooperation , always occur unity , hand may never occur think one church true one , remind mark 9 38 41 states disciples part main group begin , lose reward boston movement , 've heard numerous times exact thing , disciples part boston movement make less disciples course , people admit 've ever run someone qualities disciple outside movement know n't maybe last problem sounds little strange information lot organizations founded people one specific church whose members members church considered correct years years ago people started discuss middle process organizations opening doors people churches etc must warn sounds clique group runs around together extent exclusively causes problems fellowship causes divisions would say something correct church group reason one churches attended , example , internal clique people 14 different groups committees organizational heads congregation rarely talked anyone else outside committees seldom voted office without another office opened would step right back degree exclusion new pastor came , nearly wipe everything start scratch \( wish would 've since still clue means disciple \) anyway , rigidity clique beginning broken , still , must warn division within 's enough division without thanks opinions advance ! maarten joe fisher
mls panix com \( michael siemon \) subject weirdness early christians organization panix public access unix , nyc lines 58 early christians weird \? yes ! non christian contemporaries \( familiar late republican rome , people seem forget creative filtering done renaissance eighteenth century hero worship \) modern non christians christians pretty weird , , rather acid dismissal luther protestantism apparently buying simplistic propaganda model catholicism sure , 's large global take longer cycles smaller denominations \( local ones usually visible unless lot traveling exotic lands \) \) may mend , nonsense philippe book hour death , study death customs western specifically catholic christendom \? wo n't help escape obscurity first christian century paul pretty weird , peter others \( apparently quite weird \) circle around jesus think might find helpful bit charity try understand respect love would expect others show notions commanded love one another , brown 's book , fact , heroic attempt see talks motivated love gospel social contexts \( anything , brown heroic manages times \) \) n't suggest follow old cult paths raises hard questions skeptic inside much early christianity like weird \( christian non christian \) cults see today extent , think raise serious problem \( perhaps phrasing implicitly self ironic \) first principle answering questions respect love understand helps work standing \( long get overwhelmed revulsion begin withdraw respect people \) would advise , words , historical reading \( brown 's books also good , especially bio augustine also try robin lane fox 's christians pagans , maybe paul ed history private life , 's books sexuality ancient world \) humanity weird known one sane person , killed fortunately us , proved comedy rather tragedy easter , 1993 \( yes tad early vigil service moved forward many churches area taken , must therefore worship run well think anglican fad \) \) michael l siemon must know truth , must mls ulysses att com love truth know , must act according measure love mls panix com thomas
steve hayes f22 n7101 z5 fidonet org subject confession communion lines 14 04 apr 93 , david cruz uribe writes dc also , orthodox practice regarding communion \? read dc throw away remark someplace orthodox receive less dc frequently catholics , current practice \? dc variations historically \? think orthodox practice varies place place , parish parish jurisdiction jurisdiction parishes south africa ones receive communion infants \( e children 7 \) parish expected one confessional prayers evening , one fasting travel church , don' receive communion every sunday , every third sunday steve golded 2 40
steve hayes f22 n7101 z5 fidonet org subject sin lines 10 09 apr 93 , jill anne writes jad exactly definition sin examples jad person know committing sin \? answer briefly sin falling short glory god \( romans 3 23 \) steve golded 2 40
steve hayes f22 n7101 z5 fidonet org subject pantheism environmentalism lines 51 09 apr 93 , susan harwood writes suspect 's one party \( environmental \) dispute thinks earth sanctified 's clear much energy derived called religious left , secular , even pagan fanaticism worships gods nature gender reverence formerly accorded real religions \( emphasis mine \) shk first , secular pagan pagan , shk derived latin , means country , shk fact , italian , means peasant shk paganism , among things , includes reverence planet shk life planet stemming belief life shk , rather something secular , something shk sacred would go , say much damage environment caused secular worldview , humanist worldview , especially secular humanist worldview say secular necessarily avid destroyers environment , sure many concerned environment time renaissance ref western europe man became centre , focus culture \( hence humanism \) consciousness also secular , sense concerned primarily present age , r age come capitalism arose time , power economics became central philosophy n't mean economics exist , simply began dominate conscious cultural values western european society offshoots cultural shift , later stages , accompanied industrial revolutions values justified fundamental cultural shift meaning economics christian view man , steward , creation secular idea man slave economic forces powers denominational differences among new worshippers mammon name deity free rein market mechanism , others forces history capitalist west socialist east environment sacrificed altar mammon situation west e concerned damage environment freedom oppose happening state case steve golded 2 40
atterlep vela acs oakland edu \( cardinal ximenez \) subject ancient books organization national association disorganized lines 20 cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) writes talk atheist tell new testament historically reliable document , reasons would give \? found n't effective argument atheists perfectly willing acknowledge existence ministry jesus quite capable rationalizing miracles resurrection misunderstandings , , simple fabrications always make analogy iliad , book tells story historical trojan war , also talks gods conversations n't think 's possible convince atheists validity christianity argument help foster faith understanding god could wrong former atheists led christianity argument \? alan terlep incestuous vituperousness oakland university , rochester , mi atterlep vela acs oakland edu melissa eggertsen rushing angels fear tread
dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu \( darius lecointe \) subject revelations organization florida state university lines 11 hudson athena cs uga edu \( paul hudson jr \) writes biblical prophecy tends somewhat cyclical example , virgin prophecy isaiah also prophecied christ apply book revelation regard view \? much ot prophecies double application jewish captivity , end time rev dated prophecies could apply jerusalem darius
jodfishe silver ucs indiana edu \( joseph dale fisher \) subject prayer jesus' name organization indiana university lines 42 article apr 9 01 09 22 1993 athos rutgers edu munns cae wisc edu \( scott munns \) writes dormitory bible discussion christian roommate jesus' name , people jesus \? prayed god listened , spite sins ca n't way \? insert huge deletion following material since little relevance 've found ok people jesus n't jesus , right \( far , 've announced space vacuum \) \? people lived time jesus lived \( especially disciples \) taught tell truth , anyone faith even greater things , going father whatever ask name , son may bring glory father may ask anything name , \( john 14 12 14 \) , jesus asked pray things name since time , request , ask intercession beings , jesus remember one god one god men , man christ jesus , gave ransom men testimony given proper time \( 1 timothy 2 5 6 also , many priests talking priests among hebrews , since death prevented continuing office jesus lives forever , permanent priesthood therefore able save completely come god , always lives \( hebrews 7 23 25 \) hebrews also full areas talking jesus rather man joe fisher people jesus n't jesus , right may obvious think sense mean n't \? christian thought generally said jesus sense saved death god bound chronology real spiritual sense jesus even terms knowledge , surely n't explicit knowledge , christians normally seen messianic prophecy knowledge jesus , even knowledge clh
xx155 yfn ysu edu \( family magazine sysops \) subject empty tomb reply xx155 yfn ysu edu \( family magazine sysops \) organization st elizabeth hospital , youngstown , oh lines 218 empty tomb trust \? late wilbur smith , \( 1977 \) jesus earth , made amazing prediction , frequently repeated let quote behold , go jerusalem son man shall betrayed unto chief priests unto scribes , shall condemn death , shall deliver gentiles mock , scourge , crucify third day shall rise \( matthew 20 18 19 \) wholly different normal experience men , jesus , never done anything worthy death , even deserving , knew would die 40 years age knew city would die knew religious leaders race would condemn death knew one would knew actual death took place would mocked knew exactly would die crucifixion remarkable amazing minute particulars predicted would follow shortly buried would rise even designated time third day since central fact death tion jesus christ whole truth untruth chris tianity turns , let us examine closely body jesus long sheets cloth layers great abundance spices distributed body placed tomb never used , great stone rolled entrance jewish authorities , fully aware jesus predicted would rise , stone officially sealed saturday placed guard tomb prevent disciples carrying away body early sunday morning women faithful followers christ went tomb body utter , found stone rolled away , body gone rushed back tell disciples shortly two jesus' friends , peter john , utterly skeptical whole affair , came found tomb empty , women said even guards came hurrying city tell hired guard tomb body gone \( matthew 28 11 \) tomb become empty \? one famous new testament scholars america professor new testament literature large theological seminary wrote author answer question tomb became empty , wrote letter marked sarcasm , could explain tomb became empty could explain santa claus comes chimney christmas time n't realize santa clause never come chimney christmas time , never santa claus ! jesus died buried tomb joseph , sunday body gone facts history one escape coming conclusion really happened mentioning myth abandoned eight years old another professor , dr lake harvard university , tried explain empty tomb saying \( scholar field new testament criticism adopt \) women went wrong tomb facts first , far know , tomb nearby mistake could gone second , contrary similar experience three people forget place buried loved one within less three days even women miss tomb , peter john came , go wrong tomb \? third , soldiers guarding wrong tomb \? , course , record attempt escape evidence empty tomb new testament going , behold , watch came city showed unto chief priests things done assembled leaders taken counsel , gave large money unto soldiers , saying , say ye , disciples came night , stole away slept come governor 's ears , persuade , secure took money , taught saying com reported among jews day \( matthew 28 11 15 \) good illustration many later attempts escape fact tomb empty notice chief priests elders never questioned tomb empty never even went see guards reported true knew true another fact story makes ridiculous maintain tomb empty soldiers told say jesus' disciples came stole body away \( soldiers \) asleep ! could know going asleep \? obviously , testimony would court even aside make us reject explanation , character later history disciples compel us believe steal secretly carry away body jesus first , professor points , leaders judaism jerusalem , put lord jesus death , nothing offer contradict disciples continued preach jesus resurrection jerusalem knew tomb empty trickery , sooner later would suspected , proved second , surely one disciples , even , would confessed fraud terrific persecution may possible live lie , men seldom die lie men result ultimately would message christ risen would suffered fate unfounded stories would lost power instead , truth swept world , closed pagan temples , millions disciples , brought hope humanity , foundation truth early church , today believable freshly glorious ever jesus come alive , disappear leave disciples speculating subsequent days happened instead , appeared literally , visibly , frequently appeared women tomb resurrection morning \( matthew 28 1 10 \) later day mary magdalene alone \( john 20 11 18 \) simon peter , also alone \( luke 24 34 \) afternoon walked two followers toward emmaus \( luke 24 13 35 \) night appeared ten apostles gathered together upper room jerusalem \( mark 16 14 16 luke 24 36 40 etc \) week later appeared eleven apostles , probably place \( john 20 26 28 \) seen 500 brethren mountain galilee \( corinthians 15 6 \) finally apostles ascension \( mark 16 19 luke 24 50 52 acts 1 3 8 \) fact empty tomb , regard recorded appearances , kinds theories proposed attempting deny theories unreasonable , without supporting evidence none ever unanimous approval refuse believe reality appearances moreover , true living age may leading scientists agnostics many philosophers , let us forget greatest thinkers ages firmly believed great miracle increase , president harvard timothy dwight , president yale nathan lord , president dartmouth edward hitchcock , president amherst mark hopkins , president williams john , president princeton men countless others believed suppose christ rise dead , \? life \? life \? seals certitude teachings christ jesus taught many great truths especially many claimed come god said way god said son god , alone knew god perfectly said whoever believed eternal life , one else said whatever ask god name , would grant us thus rise grave third day , revealed amazing , predictions , spoke truth ! know reason , good reason , believe words true \? point , truth resurrection convince us none one claimed son god \? , course , fact christ rose dead testifies broken power death , day raise us also grave , promised words , person , jesus christ , son god , , cornerstone foundation life said life built would know forgiveness sins , help , joy circumstances ever take away , hope unto perfect day tried ages many given testimony today believe also know
! tom tredysvr tredydev unisys com \( tom albrecht \) subject old vs new testament organization applied , ltd lines 39 rexlex fnal fnal gov writes pointing way god judgment ot , sins forgiven , rather covered age church sins forgiven \( taken away \) , power sin put death , distinction seems quite arbitrary blessed man whose iniquities forgiven , whose sin covered \( ps 32 1 \) quoted apostle paul even david also man , unto god righteousness without works , saying , blessed whose iniquities forgiven , whose sins covered blessed man lord sin \( rom 4 6 8 \) biblical perspective seems covering parallel equivalent concepts distinction unwarranted , read sins dealt immediately present \( ie christ present earth \) christ i'm sure rex scripture back 're suggesting jesus going travel around dealing individual violations law millions perhaps billions people activity moses considered unwise \( cf ex 18 \) makes interesting speculation , though 'll leave comments called seat vs throne judgments someone else also seems like unnecessary divisions ala tom albrecht
jodfishe silver ucs indiana edu \( joseph dale fisher \) subject christ references ot organization indiana university lines 11 adam , finished study , looking prophecies , fulfilled going ot , found 508 references starting show fulfillment , found missed , needless say cannot post however , study intend publish \( process organizing showing , ready write send publisher \) luck \( free time \) finally done sometime around september \( hope \) joe fisher
atterlep vela acs oakland edu \( cardinal ximenez \) subject question bee bothering organization national association disorganized lines 18 wquinnan sdcc13 ucsd edu \( malcusco \) writes especially approach time scientists trying match god 's ability create life , use utmost caution question implications statement namely , certain physical acts limited god attempting replicate acts blasphemy god god caused bush burn without consumed thing , god 's role \? religious people threatened science systematically removing physical proofs god 's existence time goes rely faith spiritual world relate god becuase science removing props n't think bad thing alan terlep incestuous vituperousness oakland university , rochester , mi atterlep vela acs oakland edu melissa eggertsen rushing angels fear tread
atterlep vela acs oakland edu \( cardinal ximenez \) subject pantheism environmentalism organization national association disorganized lines 46 cleveland freenet edu \( gary v \) writes anybody see current emphasis environment turned \( unintentionally , course \) pantheism \? 've debated quite bit , think legitimate concern planet great thing , easily see perverted something dangerous many pagans involved environmentalism natural , since respect earth fundamental tenet pagan denominations n't mean environmentalism wrong , supporting peace middle east wrong jews muslims also work nonetheless , paganism certainly rise , christians address look draws people paganism christianity like , pagan religions addressing needs christianity , n't believe paganism hit upon major truths christianity forgotten n't mean paganism right , mean something learn pagan movement first , paganism respects feminine christianity long history oppressing women , many \( \) male christians still unable live non sexist manner idea god , christ could women still accomplished mission , met great deal resistance male dominated theology \( male dominated society goes \) drives away many young women put sexist attitudes churches second , paganism respects physical world idea great ramifications one environmentalism respect surroundings world another integration sexuality christianity long tradition calling sexual sinful urging people suppress deny sexuality much sex clearly part human experience attempting remove simply feasible option christianity begun develop workable sexual ethic , paganism attractive option i'm advocating christian doctrines \( sex marriage , etc \) changed christians work toward moderate ethic sexuality denial sexuality places much emphasis sex unmoderated sexuality , neither one much bring us closer god alan terlep incestuous vituperousness oakland university , rochester , mi atterlep vela acs oakland edu melissa eggertsen rushing angels fear tread
atterlep vela acs oakland edu \( cardinal ximenez \) subject opinions asked rejection organization national association disorganized lines 23 's talk non christians complaining hell believe 're going heaven \? n't believe heaven going \? heaven , would since n't heaven , 're going , \? point heaven based faith n't believe heaven , 's way 're going course , next step , n't believe hell either , \? seems hell eternal death god atheists believe die die forever , never see god , fact , believe 're going hell hell n't worse earth hell 's eternal , 's lot worse heaven 's comparison matters alan terlep incestuous vituperousness oakland university , rochester , mi atterlep vela acs oakland edu melissa eggertsen rushing angels fear tread
mhsu lonestar utsa edu \( melinda hsu \) subject arrogance christians organization university texas san antonio lines 74 'd like share thoughts topic arrogance christians look forward responses encounters christians , find dismayed belief faith total truth according , beliefs come bible bible word god god truth thus know truth stance makes difficult discuss faiths christianity see way way ' see faith arising willful choice believe particular way choice part faith part reason , seems choice discussions christians remind discussions grade school kid would say , policemen jerks ! 'd ask , know \? daddy told ! know 're daddy right \? says 's always right ! well argument usually stops right end , n't kids , groping truth \? , authority declare beliefs besides false \? third time browsing newsgroup apologize i'm covering tired old ground discussions topic interest welcome comments louis j kim ph 512 522 southwest research institute , ' fax 512 522 post office drawer swri edu san antonio , tx compuserve com i'm sort mystified christian might respond understand criticisms christianity say 's enough evidence believe , 's good evidence religions n't agree , clearly plenty intelligent people n't find evidence convincing n't seem point rather , seem upset people believe christianity true also believe things contradict false suggests model spiritual things 's rather different christian one sounds like view , people choose value follow , 's actual independent spiritual reality , way say specific choice unique sense right sort model modifications one sort another may appropriate religions christianity historical religion , 's based concept actual spiritual entities , one intervened history specific ways , see evidence history mundane world , free choose things work drop something , falls \( aside well defined situations n't \) christian concept spiritual matters , also actual external reality hope 're honest enough claim perfect understanding may think know everything , confident know things implies think things contradict false n't see else could proceed need n't result arrogance i'm certainly interested talking people religions may things teach , even n't , respect fellow human beings 's got possible respect people also think matters wrong maybe even wrong clh
! tom tredysvr tredydev unisys com \( tom albrecht \) subject revelations organization applied , ltd lines 25 phil almac co uk \( phil \) writes apostate church revelation likely refers 1st century jews rejected messiah crucified john refers i'm afraid refers church christ founded many , many times warns church fall away heresy apostles example look parables matthew 13 31 33 refer 'the kingdom \( church \) process corrupted sorry , think interpretation matthew 13 parables nonsense e , always stands sin corruption heresy example yeast matthew 16 12 explains pharisees jesus simply referring teaching sin corruption heresy jesus apostles keys kingdom said gates hell would prevail church tom albrecht
mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) subject environmentalism paganism organization ai programs , university georgia , athens lines 12 would like see christians devote bit less effort bashing paganism figuring present gospel pagans christ answer pagans lot right questions unlike , deny need spirituality michael covington , associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu university georgia phone 706 542 0358 athens , georgia 30602 7415 u amateur radio n4tmi
wquinnan sdcc13 ucsd edu \( malcusco \) subject arrogance christians organization university california , san diego lines 60 article apr 10 05 32 15 1993 14385 athos rutgers edu dleonar andy bgsu edu \( pixie \) writes article apr 7 01 55 50 1993 athos rutgers edu , pardon , humble atheist , exactly difference holding revealed truth blind faith basis \( e regardless evidence may find contrary \) absolute truth , fully expecting people believe arrogance \? sound like one pixie p sincerely believe god exists , follow blindly \? follow god blindly \? ever asked physically blind person follows seeing eye dog \? answer quite simple dog see , blind person cannot acknowledge , christian , blind see , see illusions well reality \( watched tv lately \? \) hear , hear lies well truth \( listen radio read newspaper \) remember , tastes well healthy , rely one one see , hear , taste everything , knows real , god course , may ask , cannot trust senses , know whether see hear god truth lie need faith saved must force believe god knows truth , loves us enough share us , even defies think know would created us love us enough help us world \? also trust experiences extent things defy seeming logic experience , father commands , see results long term , find led proper direction , even though feel right time works christians important exercises body make body strong , faith make faith strong , one convert must choose follow god , ever follow christians wish share love received god reject , accept decision , although always keep offer open really want find believe believe , suggest try praying faith , reading bible , asking christians experiences personally may grow understand believe , defiance logic world may lord bring peace , malcusco
david wheaton edu \( jonathan hayward \) subject pantheism environmentalism organization wheaton college , il lines 46 article apr 5 23 31 36 1993 athos rutgers edu cleveland freenet edu \( gary v \) writes i'm new group , maybe covered already , anybody see current emphasis environment turned \( unintentionally , course \) pantheism \? yes \( use styrofoam table service please keep mind read post wish attack environmentalism \) half truth least dangerous complete lie complete lie rarely readily accepted , half truth \( lie subtly hidden \) offered one angel light satan \( people \) grip treating earth something god 's intricate , something health future generations based treated respect think 's going happily leave \? one error rejected , style push people opposite error therefore earth god 's intricate , rubbish , god mother earth one primarily love serve see two facets response 1 care environment treat proper respect , god 's intricate health future generation , showing facet one things constitute apostle paul called becoming things men possible means might save n't say forget environment , 've got important things spend time putting foot mouth manner destroy credibility expressing things important 2 show ultimate entity , creature creator show beauty glory points greater beauty glory show ultimate , one many cords infinite god , give mountains greatest jonathan hayward climb love jonathan hayward wheaton edu strength climbing corinthians 13 13 edu
spot colorado edu \( \) subject really rise \? \? \? organization university lines 20 n't understand post directed towards trying convince \? subject would assume directing argument towards people believe christ rose dead , proof , use bible exclusively post therefore immediately useless anyone n't believe bible truth , everyone else , reaffirmation belief already held far know , disagreement christians resurrection christ question purpose post \? tomas battle ever said even fought field reveals man folly despair , victory illusion philosophers fools william
vbv r2d2 eeap cwru edu \( virgilio \( dean \) b velasco jr \) subject accepting jeesus heart organization case western reserve univ cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 31 article apr 10 05 32 36 1993 athos rutgers edu gsu0033 uxa ecn bgu edu \( eric molas \) writes raised religious atmosphere , attended 13 years religious educational institutions know bible well well recognize many passages memory stuff deleted brevity christianity infectious cult reasons flourishes 1 \) gives people without hope driven purpose life safety blanked hide behind oh wow follow christian moral standard get eternal happiness found jeezus , many brink \? starting point wrong christianity based following moral standard grace saved , faith works man may boast \( eph 2 7 8 \) say know bible well , recognize \( mean \? \) many passages memory could well however , looks like passages pay attention \( titus 3 5 james 2 10 among \) obedience moral law however , supposed result turning life christ becoming christian means starting point virgilio dean velasco jr , department electrical eng'g applied physics cwru graduate student , roboticist training q wannabee bullwinkle , man 's intimidating referee ! boss well n't look like one ! jewish carpenter
deon strydom f7 z5 fidonet org \( deon strydom \) subject prophetic warning new york city lines 32 note reply message soc religion christian thomas randall wrote message brings around asking open question bible closed book scripture \? okay us go around saying god told jesus told \? also interesting note called prophecies nothing new rather inspired translation scripture right call prophecy \? misleading \? hi , might want read charismatic chaos john discussed exactly , amongst others words , simplified , position basically one must decide , important experience scripture \? people tend say scripture , without living according feeling prophecy etc tends put across without testing light scripture 's lot , really worthwhile read whether 're charismatic \( cheers \) deon timed b8 internet deon strydom f7 z5 fidonet org via catalyst bbs port elizabeth , south africa \( alt za \) 27 41 34 1122 hst 27 41 34 , v32bis hst
encore com \( drew watson \) subject ethics vs freedom organization encore computer corporation lines 70 parent need help , ask bear describe situation plagues divorced father chance would weekend daughter fallen upon easter weekend year although presbyterian , married catholic woman decided catholic indoctrination spouse faith \( restrictive due time already set date \) , married christian church non denominational years marriage , often attend church daughter born , years later , wife insisted baptised catholic n't problem separation five years , ex wife taken ill disease affected mental capacities confined mental ward two months diagnosed since treated effectively words , professionals deemed functioning member society , ex wife embraced influence daughter substantial , primarily allowed saturday visitation number years period read bible study books daughter , tried keep aware christian heritage last fall , divorce finalized year divorce hearings time awarded visitation rights every weekend time , started taking daughter church quite often , although every weekend attempt strengthen christian ethic expose religious community today , easter sunday , took daughter church came time communion , daughter took bread \( body christ \) left wine \( blood christ \) young wine bread hand tried throw pew front us feel slap face , religion , religious heritage construed breaking several commandments try really felt action daughter nine years old , think old mature enough realize actions difficulty blaming directly religious teachings mother swears , discussed daughter made clear believed buddhism christianity initial response anger \( moderated \) suggest faith christ celebrate easter , christmas \? suggested would never force practice religious beliefs celebrating holidays want drive fold , would willing allow continue practicing buddhism \( though choice seeing two days fourteen \) want want embrace christianity suggestions \? response , please e mail copy \( i'm regular reader newsgroup \) \( naturally , feel free post ! \) thanks , hope 've happy easter drew drew watson systems analysis encore computer corp encore com \( 301 \) 497 1800 \( 703 \) 691 3500 customer services
! tom tredysvr tredydev unisys com \( tom albrecht \) subject revelations organization applied , ltd lines 30 hudson athena cs uga edu \( paul hudson jr \) writes , suggestion prophecy tends somewhat cyclical , elaborate \? i'm exactly sure mean suggestion relate isaiah 's prophecy birth christ virgin \? n't see cycles prophecy maybe cyclical best word another example would scripture quoted judas , let another take another example something isaiah said disciples also applied christ hebrews , children thou hast given view account phenomenon ah , double fulfillment first would say i'm sure prophecies double fulfillment , e g , isaiah 7 14 prophecy would say happens occasions mean occur always , especially regard nt prophecies apostles quoted ot applied passages jesus acting divine messengers giving inerrant word god church one authority today one apostolic authority say prophecy double fulfillment revelation fits events 1st century , folly us try make apply events 20 centuries later tom albrecht
mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) subject easter 's name \? \( new testament double standard \? organization ai programs , university georgia , athens lines 31 \( moderator replacement earlier , worded submission topic submitted minutes ago \) think need distinguish etymology meaning regardless word 'easter' originated , fact mean anything christians 'the feast day resurrection jesus meaning word people understand mean goes cultural practices festival easter may possibly historical association pagan festival , today , far know , christians intend honor kind pagan goddess celebrating easter nonsense say word \( practice \) means even though nobody realizes words practices n't mean things , people \( basic semantics i'm linguist pay think things like \) michael covington , associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu university georgia phone 706 542 0358 athens , georgia 30602 7415 u amateur radio n4tmi , easter specific english many languages , word used based passover resurrection ok celebrate countries using languages , using english \? clh
halsall murray fordham edu \( paul halsall \) subject catholic liturgy reply halsall murray fordham edu organization j random misconfigured site lines 60 problems catholic liturgy likely continue time problem , nutshell , liturgy symbolic action words catholics believe signs mass water , blessings , , altar , , etc real water bestows real , almost tangible , holiness , real indication real sacred time point symbol understood connected underlying real referent kind thinking precludes analysis holy water holy anything , simply holy , modern westerners find extremely difficult , especially well educated , think mass symbol likely see sign , ie action represents grace , could replaced signs concrete terms , means mass become commercial god 's grace rather real thing mess around commercial way would n't dare real thing ask coca cola co ! attitudes encouraged liturgy workshops , etc instead focusing liturgy , focused create meaning liturgy create signs , symbols come god heart , somewhere deeper analysis dramatic example shift understanding treatment sacred species consecrated host wine , bread etc , common come away altar hands covered particles host sign grace , isnt issue catholics past would real real symbol jesus' body modern catholic liturgy caught shift try old rites , priest get stop start pretending soul filling experience n't help btw got stuck huge amount two three chord folk music result mis analysis complicated fact easier remember simple ones genius wesley anglican hymn writers slightly better \? well suggest rejecting parish system n't work search church liturgy well prepared well explained exist every city btw matter particular style music might old new attitude church counts also , note conservative liturgy back pre vatican ii days , necessarily mean church socially conservative nyc recommend corpus christi w st corpus christi w st conservative liturgy , st joseph 's , greenwich village modern , clean , largely gay church , brooklyn beautiful avoid , anywhere , anytime church electric candles happy easter christos , christos , christ risen paul halsall halsall murray fordham edu
heath athena cs uga edu \( terrance heath \) subject pantheism environmentalism organization university georgia , athens lines 14 article apr 11 01 02 34 1993 athos rutgers edu steve hayes f22 n7101 z5 fidonet org writes realize i'm entering discussion rather late , one question n't reagan appointee , james watt , pentacostal christian \( think \) secretary interior saw problem deforestation since living last days would last generation see redwoods anyway \? terrance heath heath athena cs uga edu comfort silence ! ! ! ! ! act ! fight back ! talk back !
dmn kepler unh edu \( 's seeker born every minute \) subject hell organization utexas mail news gateway lines 98 atterlep vela acs oakland edu \( cardinal ximenez \) wrote 's talk non christians complaining hell believe 're going heaven \? n't believe heaven going \? heaven , would since n't heaven , 're going , \? point heaven based faith n't believe heaven , 's way 're going hmmm people americas time christ , children die young , etc \? course , next step , n't believe hell either , \? seems hell eternal death god course , popular conception hell \( correct incorrect \) something akin eternal consciousness , least atheists believe die die forever , never see god , fact , believe 're going hell think good number atheists believe nothing beyond bodily death , simply abuse language say believe 're going hell believe 're going die understand 've turned hell verb using logic , also follows animals hell ' sure want say \? \( presumably animals n't opportunity get heaven , still n't change fact 're going hell \( die final death \) \) n't claim know whether afterlife sort , hell described \( final death , eternal consciousness \) true never moment aware non existence \( assuming hell' heaven \) words , 'll never know i'm dead hmmm hell n't worse earth hell 's eternal , ever hear people say loved one ill , died least 's suffering 's heaven \? consider following statement least 's suffering 's hell statement sounds odd , according definition hell , would true statement person hell would suffering granted , would n't anything \( would n't conscious experience whatsoever \) say hell \( death \) eternal however , loses meaning dead person , seems threat sort eternal punishment makes sense force one expects conscious throughout eternity many atheists believe thirst afterlife simply product propaganda \( friend , want free gift e life \? 's understanding early jews believe afterlife anyone back \? \) combined survival instinct animals share difference consciousness , get idea eternal life drilled brains , desire sort super survival 's lot worse heaven 's comparison matters would depend heaven like god king , eternity heaven consists giving thanks praise king , might opt hell read lovely account missionary trying convert christianity book illusion immortality lamont missionary started speak heaven seals heaven \? able go hunting \? asked eskimo missionary said group said something effect , well good heaven 's hunting \? highly recommend book \( \) anyone wants account side immortality coin \( immortality \) alan terlep incestuous vituperousness oakland university , rochester , mi atterlep vela acs oakland edu melissa eggertsen rushing angels fear tread pax , dana
vbv r2d2 eeap cwru edu \( virgilio \( dean \) b velasco jr \) subject arrogance christians organization case western reserve univ cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 56 article apr 10 05 32 29 1993 athos rutgers edu caralv caralv auto trol com \( carol alvin \) writes vbv r2d2 eeap cwru edu \( virgilio \( dean \) b velasco jr \) writes , imo , mr stowell missed point affirm absolutes scripture , arrogant moralists , believe god truth , revealed truth word , therefore hold precious strategic importance absolutes mr stowell seems jumped rather strangely truth absolutes n't see necessarily follows truths also absolutes \? scripture truths \( therefore absolutes \) \? answer either questions , perhaps explain determine parts scripture truths , truths absolutes answer questions yes scripture true , inspired god evidence claim discussed ad nauseum group similarly , truth absolute indeed , non absolute truth contradiction terms something absolute \? always true obviously , truth always true contradiction terms many people claim absolutes world statement terribly self contradictory let put way absolutes , n't conclude statement , absolutes absolutely true \? obviously , contradiction one reasons christians defy world claiming indeed absolutes universe hardly consensus , even evangelical christianity \( mention rest christianity \) regarding biblical interpretation \? people sometimes disagree true fact , however , still absolutes universe moreover , evangelical christianity , least , still believe certain truths man sinful , man needs salvation , jesus mankind 's sins , name group profess believe statements cannot accurately called evangelical virgilio dean velasco jr , department electrical eng'g applied physics cwru graduate student , roboticist training q wannabee bullwinkle , man 's intimidating referee ! boss well n't look like one ! jewish carpenter
armstrng cs dal ca \( stan armstrong \) subject prodigal son organization math , stats cs , dalhousie university , halifax , ns , canada lines 18 parable prodigal son n't immoral person grace love god people would agree concerning younger son elder son simply negative example thing thinks must earn father 's love , earned , entitled father tells wrong track always loved reason brother always father 's son performance oriented consistently get point willing saved grace , christians want go back earning deserving foolish \? beginning spirit , trying attain goal human effort \? gal 3 3 niv stan armstrong religious studies dept , saint mary 's university , halifax , n armstrong husky1 stmarys ca att ! clyde ! watmath ! water ! dalcs ! armstrng
reedr cgsvax claremont edu subject really rise \? \? \? organization claremont graduate school lines 29 article apr 9 01 11 16 1993 athos rutgers edu , emery tc fluke com \( john emery \) writes one single historic event biggest impact world centuries resurrection jesus time , one contested topics jesus christ really rise dead \? since eyewitnesses longer living , written accounts magnitude significance involved , either resurrection greatest event history man greatest deception played man massive amounts data deleted john , take time rebut point point , suggest three current works think helpful quest answer question john dominic \( professor religion de paul univ \) cross spoke harper row pub 1988 , also latest work historical jesus life mediterranean jewish peasant harper row pub 1991 , also two works burton mack \( professor new testament claremont graduate school \) myth innocence fortress press 1988 , latest book lost gospel book q christian origins harper row , 1992 might start mack 's book q examine others afterward however think see evidence sturdy 'd like tired arguements stated , assume eyewitness accounts , case anyway look mack get back us randy
reedr cgsvax claremont edu subject really rise \? \? \? organization claremont graduate school lines 40 article apr 10 05 31 46 1993 athos rutgers edu , luomat alleg edu \( timothy j luoma \) writes article apr 9 01 11 16 1993 athos rutgers edu suppose part going tell people christ risen never mind stoning , burned alive , possible crucifixion let 's talk whip would used would broken , metal , bone , anything else could find attached would stood facing wall , nothing protect scream agony raw back torn would say lie \? ' 37 coming third hit would scream lie , beg stop , tell would swear life lie , would stop one ever , beaten , burned , fed lions , killed way belief resurrection sorry disappoint idea resurrection one found host different forms religions antiquity problem resurrection issue tiny fragment jewish population \( \) non issues everyone else real problem christians pacifist preached one god state operates system emperor becomes capital offense jews able get exemption , also evangelistic christians far vocal , gentile , hence dangerous therefore targets persecution also since christians relatively powerless group , made good seen nero 's blaming burning rome let 's cloud issues resurrection randy agree christians persecuted specifically believed resurrection however beliefs cause trouble dependent belief resurrection jesus course problem alternatives great conspiracy common theory among non christians scholars seems resurrection subjective event effect , delusion clh
vic mmalt guild org \( vic kulikauskas \) subject eternity hell \( hell \) organization kulikauskas home lines 11 moderator writes i'm inclined read descriptions lake fire indicating annihilation however 's minority view 's personal view , denominations know hold officially jw 's sda 's ca n't find reference right , n't c lewis speculate somewhere hell might state human soul \?
storm cs orst edu \( martha \) subject summer program organization computer science department , oregon state university lines 8 anyone know good program min august end sept missionary programs currently belong missionary alliance church oregon please reply mail thanks storm cs orst edu
jayne mmalt guild org \( jayne kulikauskas \) subject sin block prayers \? organization kulikauskas home lines 27 mike boulder snsc unr edu \( mike \) writes honoring wives cause prayers hindered husbands likewise , live wives understanding way , weaker vessel , since woman grant honor fellow heir grace life , prayers may hindered peter 3 7 one interpretation 've heard verse refers sin physically abusing one 's wife husband usually physically stronger wife permitted use dominate must honor sister christ would therefore example specific sin blocks prayer verse also makes think kind husband decides god 's family without consulting wife god reveals husband wife needs degree decision making even whose understanding bible leads belief authoritarian husband need incorporate order functional family one way look god speaks wife husband husband wife jayne kulikauskas jayne mmalt guild org
norris athena mit edu \( richard chonak \) subject atheist 's views christianity \( accepting jeesus heart \) reply norris mit edu organization l'organisation , c'est moi lines 53 eric \( damien \? \) presenting views christianity 'll respond points article apr 10 05 32 36 1993 athos rutgers edu , gsu0033 uxa ecn bgu edu \( eric molas \) writes firstly , atheist posting immature flame start , rather express opinion intended audience strong opinions start 1 \) human animal , due advanced mental facilities , developed religion solution explain unexplainable \( example ancient greeks believed apollo drove chariot across sky day real due advancement technology , know false \) certainly valid objection religion explanation nature fortunately convenience us believers , class questions never reduced away natural science example universe exist \? , time space world n't exist anything exist \? possible persons \( e g man \) come purely impersonal cosmos \? questions look real mysteries life creation world persons provide permanent indicator meaning life material world found outside world , source animals need sleep , food , reproduce die religion \( especially christianity \) nothing drug people use drugs escape reality christians inject jeezus live high say man animal , think presenting unprovable statement dogma , one requires kind faith taking hard line atheism , may stumbled religion write christianity phony shallow , hope 'll little research history varieties , perhaps reading paul johnson 's history christianity remarks , seems exposed certain types christian religion others even atheist enough faith man know movement 2000 years depth , animated enduring values best wishes , richard aquinas chonak , norris mit edu , usenet addict , exclusive opinions license info available request
vbv r2d2 eeap cwru edu \( virgilio \( dean \) b velasco jr \) subject arrogance christians organization case western reserve univ cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 32 article apr 10 05 32 15 1993 14385 athos rutgers edu dleonar andy bgsu edu \( pixie \) writes pardon , humble atheist , exactly difference holding revealed truth blind faith basis \( e regardless evidence may find contrary \) absolute truth , fully expecting people believe arrogance \? sound like one see wisdom whatsoever words i'm surprised see wisdom premises wrong word go claim christianity based blind faith , simply look current thread evidence jesus' resurrection evidence jesus real death furthermore , say christians hold beliefs regardless evidence may find contrary without evidence support claim , statement little ad hominem argument mind , n't mean personal attack i'm merely pointing intellectual dishonesty behind condemning christianity fashion would make much sense could prove christians base belief empty , ignore evidence contrary expect attack make sense virgilio dean velasco jr , department electrical eng'g applied physics cwru graduate student , roboticist training q wannabee bullwinkle , man 's intimidating referee ! boss well n't look like one ! jewish carpenter
ltd uhura cc rochester edu \( leonidas \) subject prophecy nyc organization university rochester rochester , new york lines 46 marka travis csd harris com \( mark ashley \) writes soc religion christian write regarding david wilkerson 's prophecies i'm real sure credibility , remember book wrote , called vision something like made prediction people bought gold would hurt financially time , gold 800 less half prediction stuck mind lot people worked buying gold note type prediction require god made expert field also predict things based experience beware predictions like volcano erupt tomorrow ! n't follow preacher statements come true note also , i'm describing \( hypothetical \) death friend result passion fast motorcycles , might say mother predicted would die course , father may said 'll make good money hobby depending upon final outcome situation end mentioning one 's relevant reader road get impression mother father predicted accurately event , casual statement finally , prophesies , note many prophesies fulfilled people , often fool believers say , beware , terminal unexpectedly shut ! 2 secs turn \( someone come another room \) prediction similar situation arises establishment jewish state pressing , prominent jews argued predicted 'd state , time come \( 've read somewhere , ca n't think source , please let know \) case , establishment state really fulfill prophesy since prophesy used order push establishment state deciding truely fulfillment prophesy tricky leo mother wanted save marriage every leonidas day thank god n't without pre marital sex , would never born ltd uhura sex beautiful choice greg weeks cc rochester edu
nabeel ahmad rana rana rintintin colorado edu subject rfd soc religion islam ahmadiyya moderated organization uunet communications lines 171 reply rana rintintin colorado edu nntp posting host rodan uu net dear netters new religious newsgroup soc religion islam ahmadiyya pro posed oct 16 , 1992 discussion new proposed newsgroup went various related groups proposal , supposed enter vote last week november 92 due false call votes , opponent , voting canceled quote statement moderator new announce newgroups current call votes \( cfv \) ahmadiyya newsgroup canceled new call votes issued within weeks , possibly new impartial vote taker discus sion proposal still open new vote called lawrence , nov 20 , 1992 lot confusion arose among netter vote therefore decided give cool period , 4 months instant attempting create newsgroup fresh rfd hereby issued please ! take part discussion title heading news groups least cross post news groups request discussion name proposed newsgroup soc religion islam ahmadiyya charter religious newsgroup , would mainly discuss , teachings , philosophy ideologies major world exist foster better religious knowledge understanding among followers religions share common basis newsgroup devoted build peaceful mutual understanding ahmadiyya branch islam , peacefull beliefs , ideology philosophy different branches islam world peace developing better understanding among religious people may also used post important religious events within world wide ahmadiyya islamic community general purpose group following main purposes group achieve \) discuss common beliefs major religions relate ahmadiyya muslim community ii \) discuss doctrines , origin teachings spiritual force earth iii \) examine islamic teachings beliefs general light quran established islamic traditions 15 centuries ahmadiyya perspective iv \) discuss similarities ahmadi muslims people religions world discuss religious tolerance respect 's faiths brought eliminate inter religion hatred among people religions v \) discuss origin teachings religions general islamic ahmadiyya muslims particular foster better understanding among ahmadi muslims religious people vi \) discuss current world problems solution problems offered religion vii \) exchange important news views ahmadiyya muslim community religions viii \) add diversity religious newsgroups present usenet ix \) discuss religious persecution rise world find solutions remedy ever deter situation world general islamic world particular x \) discuss contributions founders people humanity , society world peace general international ahmadiyya mus lim community particular type group moderated orderly free religious moderation prevent disagreement dissent beliefs , mainly used prevent derogatory use dialect irrelevant issues moderators decided personal e mail general consensus among discussion news groups following moderators proposed agreed upon moderator nabeel rana \( rana rintintin colorado edu \) co moderator dr ijaz \( ijaz ccu umanitoba ca \) brief description ahmadiyya islam ahmadiyya movement islam , international organi , founder 1989 , india founder sect , ahmad \( 1835 \) , proclaimed promised age almost major religions world today \( islam , christianity , , \) claimed long awaited second comming jesus christ \( metaphorically \) , muslim mahdi , promised messiah claimed prophecies contained almost great religions world advent messenger god fulfilled claims ahmad raised storms hostility extreme many people muslims , chris , jews hindus age opposition often wit history divine reformers even today sect persecuted specially muslim regimes dispite opposition persecution , sect many adherents 130 countries 10 million followers , come diverse ethnic cultural background sect devoted world peace bringing better understanding religion , founders mission unite mankind one universal develop better understanding faith ahmadi muslims always opposed kind violence religious fundamentalism among many activities , sect es network hundreds schools , hospitals , clin ics many third world countries institutions staffed volunteer professional fully financed sect 's internal resources ahmadiyya mission bring universal moral reform , establish peace justice , unite mankind one universal religion newsgroup creation call votes called , discussion officially end voting held three weeks group gets 2 3rd majority 100 yes create votes n't create votes group shall created questions comments may included discussion directly sent rana rintintin colorado edu
aa888 freenet carleton ca \( mark baker \) subject arrogance christians reply aa888 freenet carleton ca \( mark baker \) organization national capital freenet lines 58 previous article , dleonar andy bgsu edu \( pixie \) says words question authority mean anything \? defy theist reply well , despite mother told accepting dares , goes careful mean question authority taken literally , nonsense , say question word authority ridiculous open question , n't authority hand , perfectly reasonable question whether something authority catch phrase authenticate authority authenticated authority , must believe says , treating authority difficulty authenticating authority easy perhaps discredit claim authority showing logical inconsistency teaches , showing obey rules discourse fact cannot discredit something , , \( fact convince discredited something necessarilly mean false \) cannot authority independantly verifying teachings , independantly verify teachings , n't need authority need authority information need cannot get thus , authenticate authority , must means examining teachings practical matters accept kinds authorities n't time fundamental knowledge every scientist today assumes , authority community , sorts knowledge necessary work time verify spiritual matters , accept authority direct source select authorities based various criteria \( catholic , part , historical claims rc church seem strongest \) without authorities would subject matter belief , unless simply made something \( many \) atheist position seems authorities reasonable assertion , leads practical difficulty reject authority hand , reject possibility every receiving information thus atheist position never possibly change non falsifiable therefore demand rational proof god 's existence , deny god 's existence , since neither science , reason , , nature , prove anything mark baker task cut jungles , aa888 freenet carleton ca irrigate deserts c lewis
mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) subject pantheism environmentalism organization ai programs , university georgia , athens lines 18 article apr 12 03 44 17 1993 athos rutgers edu heath athena cs uga edu \( terrance heath \) writes realize i'm entering discussion rather late , one question n't reagan appointee , james watt , pentacostal christian \( think \) secretary interior saw problem deforestation since living last days would last generation see redwoods anyway \? heard thing , without confirmation actually said alarming us bible says nobody knows second coming take place michael covington , associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu university georgia phone 706 542 0358 athens , georgia 30602 7415 u amateur radio n4tmi
jayne mmalt guild org \( jayne kulikauskas \) subject god love \? organization kulikauskas home lines 32 davem bnr ca \( dave mielke \) writes , however , god 's love qualified bible says way wicked abomination unto lord loveth righteousness proverbs 15 9 lord knoweth way righteous way ungodly shall perish psalm 1 6 extremely uncomfortable way phrasing god 's love unconditional , unqualified , capable rejecting god 's love never fails love us verses show god 's love qualified rather opposed evil uncomfortable tract general seems emphasis hell god deserves love worship like idea frightening people accepting christ see evangelism combining way living shows god 's love putting words explaining love preaching gospel without living gospel better noisy gong cymbal 's question many christians afraid going hell \? many responding god 's love \? jayne kulikauskas jayne mmalt guild org
jayne mmalt guild org \( jayne kulikauskas \) subject quality catholic liturgy organization kulikauskas home lines 34 jemurray magnus acs ohio state edu \( john e murray \) writes would like opinion netters subject bothering wife lately liturgy , particular , catholic liturgy last fe years seems ad hoc events mass 's driving crazy ! grace filled aspect liturgical tradition happens something together , know led priest , course , makes kind dialogue present god best masses 've prayers one hand advantages liturgy stay john described hand , people seem start tuning `the old pay attention better things get changed around think innovative priests liturgy committees trying get attention make things meaningful us drives crazy different people differing preferences needs liturgy local parish innovative prefer go mass next parish sometimes n't option attending mass style best suits us john put smiley offer probably solution related issue , sounds like john deal , spouses may different liturgical tastes husband like innovative challenge meet spiritual needs without going separate ways include factor also trying satisfy children 's needs , things get pretty complicated one thing remember even mass still mass jayne kulikauskas jayne mmalt guild org
jayne mmalt guild org \( jayne kulikauskas \) subject accepting jeesus heart organization kulikauskas home lines 29 gsu0033 uxa ecn bgu edu \( eric molas \) writes firstly , atheist posting immature flame start , rather express opinion intended audience deleted animals need sleep , food , reproduce die glad atheist seems tragic people choose meaningless existence terrible go living one fears death life feel sorry eric yet attempts share joy life would considered evidence infectious nature christianity christian free human person think , love , choose , create live forever god christ kind drug drugs replacement christ empty spot god shaped hole hearts must something ease pain effective substance abuse recovery programs involve meeting peoples' spiritual needs thank , eric post helped appreciate much god blessed hope someday joy filled abundant life jayne kulikauskas jayne mmalt guild org
maridai comm mot com \( marida ignacio \) subject every lent suffers save us organization trunking fixed lines 59 story related one seven apparitions approved church worthy belief happened la , france moral lesson story lamb god sacrificed blood used cleanse us sins every moment god perceives worthy done heaven mary lamb rest continue disobey god sin mary , messenger , given task make us evil serpent \( communism , wars , famine , , disobedience god , etc \) running rest children went astray disobedience led dragon brought back peace loving messages , reparations sins , obey god 's commandments worthy presence lamb conceived without sin worthy bearing son god womb , mary preparing us , church , body christ , second coming \( making sure protected dragon \) also , preparing new eden , reversing deed ancient eve new eden sanctuary righteous judged christ next coming relate story believe mary , one apparitions 19th 20th century , appeared two children tends goats cows \( forgot exact place \) weeping telling children afraid 's going lose son 's arm mourning fault would drought harvest much good food year last year mary tells children place worked whole week even sundays church honoring god swears uses son 's name bad words son 's arm heavy pain asked pray children said hardly asked pray every morning night children went back work tell somebody news thorough investigation incident , converted faith obedience god restored community , lamb succeeds marida spreading god 's words actions mother teresa
trajan cwis unomaha edu \( stephen mcintyre \) subject atheist 's views christianity \( accepting jeesus heart \) organization university nebraska omaha lines 66 norris athena mit edu writes certainly valid objection religion explanation nature fortunately convenience us believers , class questions never reduced away natural science example universe exist \? must \? ask also assume god namely , exists , existence question reversed , ca n't assume universe exists assume god exist \? must universe \? , time space world n't exist anything exist \? possible persons \( e g man \) come purely impersonal cosmos \? questions look real mysteries life creation world persons provide permanent indicator meaning life material world found outside world , source may one day man create life also create man , n't see happening lifetime , assert probable possibility , given scientists working hard decoding genetic code perhaps help cure disease genetic variation , though , must divine man 's existence \? say man animal , think presenting unprovable statement dogma , one requires kind faith taking hard line atheism , may stumbled religion far tell , man falls mammal catagory , something man \( say , soul \) , yet find evidence , man mammal \( babies born live , mother gives milk , 're warm blooded , etc \) mammals similar genetic construction \( particular , primates \) check talk origins write christianity phony shallow , hope 'll little research history varieties , perhaps reading paul johnson 's history christianity remarks , seems exposed certain types christian religion others even atheist enough faith man know movement 2000 years depth , animated enduring values well , , buddhism , , taoism , hinduism , judaism , , , islam fit bit logic quite nicely \) depth , enduring values , thus must true stephen atheist libertarian pro individuality pro responsibility jr jazz
jayne mmalt guild org \( jayne kulikauskas \) subject weirdness early christians organization kulikauskas home lines 21 halsall murray fordham edu \( paul halsall \) writes recently read peter brown 's body society well researched , well written raises upsetting questions early christians weird even today 's fundies odd views sex , views body , totally ludicrous views demons , distinctly views human beings possible \( last heard , print considering \) read barbara 's search seven hills historical fiction , set rome time early church captures weirdness early christians yet gives holiness odd views make lot sense context society lived found remarkably positive view christianity considering author christian another plus chapter begins original source quote makes good starting point serious research jayne kulikauskas jayne mmalt guild org
\( phil \) subject arrogance christians organization u west advanced technologies lines 36 article apr 10 05 32 15 1993 14385 athos rutgers edu , dleonar andy bgsu edu \( pixie \) wrote article apr 7 01 55 50 1993 athos rutgers edu , vbv r2d2 eeap cwru edu \( virgilio \( dean \) b velasco jr \) wrote affirm absolutes scripture , arrogant moralists , believe god truth , revealed truth word , therefore hold precious strategic importance absolutes pardon , humble atheist , exactly difference holding revealed truth blind faith basis \( e regardless evidence may find contrary \) absolute truth , fully expecting people believe arrogance \? would bother check good thesaurus , think find arrogance offensive exhibition presumed real superiority \( paraphrase webster 's \) pride person believe absolute truth , even blindly \( whatever means \) without obnoxious person humble , authority questioning , defying theist reply athiest quite arrogant arrogance believe , relate believe present others overwhelming experience christians arrogant , behalf experience , least forums like usenet see good mix people , arrogant christians athiests seems occur equal numbers phil hey , 're talking phone company , phone company n't opinions kind stuff
nusunix1 nus sg \( chan nicodemus \) subject greek wordprocessor database organization national university singapore lines 25 hi , anyone know greek database word processor things like count occurrences word , letter et al \? i'm posting friend studies greek thanks , p email seldom look usenet nowadays nicodemus chan , raffles hall , nus , kent ridge department information systems singapore 0511 \( tel 02 \) computer science , address national university singapore 134 , nanyang estate , north kent ridge crescent , , kuala lumpur , malaysia singapore 0511 e mail nus sg iscs nus sg call unto answer show thee great things know jeremiah 33 3
hubcap clemson edu \( l butler jr \) subject really rise \? \? \? organization clemson university lines 11 mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) writes \( 2 \) nobody ever displayed dead body jesus , even though jewish roman authorities would gained lot \( would discredited christians \) told gospels pharisees \( sp \? \) scribes roman soldiers say stole body night good enough excuse jewish roman objectives \( day \) hubcap clemson edu
nic edu \( david arndt \) subject johnny hart 's \( b c comic strip \) mailing address \? organization college lines 17 subject pretty much says i'm looking johnny hart 's \( creator b c comic \) mailing address n't seen , take look strips good friday easter sunday remarkable witness ! anyone help get touch , 'd really appreciate ! 've contacted paper carries strip 'll get back ! thanks help , dave arndt st peter 's evangelical lutheran church st peter , mn nic edu
hayesstw risc1 unisa ac za \( steve hayes \) subject arrogance christians organization university south africa lines 51 article apr 11 01 02 46 1993 athos rutgers edu mhsu lonestar utsa edu \( melinda hsu \) writes belief faith total truth according , beliefs come bible bible word god god truth thus know truth stance makes difficult discuss faiths christianity see way way ' see faith arising willful choice believe particular way choice part faith part reason , seems choice discussions christians remind discussions grade school kid would say , policemen jerks ! 'd ask , know \? daddy told ! know 're daddy right \? says 's always right ! well argument usually stops right end , n't kids , groping truth \? , authority declare beliefs besides false \? find argument strange , though unfamiliar analogy someone used back perhaps illustrate say , example , people living volcanic island , group geologists determine volcano imminent warn people island danger , leave group people island given task warning others danger believe danger real , others may mean first group necessarily arrogant warning others danger \? mean saying beliefs correct , others false \? might indeed react opposition arrogance , behave arrogant manner , personal necessarily mean arrogant steve hayes , department missiology editorial department univ south africa , p box 392 , pretoria , 0001 south africa internet hayesstw risc1 unisa ac za steve hayes p5 f22 n7101 z5 fidonet org stephen hayes n7101 z5 fidonet org
bluelobster cmu edu \( david hunt \) subject conversions organization carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 13 12 apr 93 environmentalism paganism user michael covington aisun3 writes would like see christians devote bit less effort bashing paganism figuring present gospel pagans christ answer pagans lot right questions unlike , deny need spirituality us already answers questions without turning christianity \( , case , religion \) \? right presume lecture believe \? \? david hunt
edu subject god love \? lines 5 simply wish thank dave mielke \( dave bnr ca \) sharing tract concerning god 's love welcome great source comfort carol
creps lateran ucs indiana edu \( stephen creps \) subject quality catholic liturgy organization indiana university lines 72 article apr 10 05 30 16 1993 athos rutgers edu jemurray magnus acs ohio state edu \( john e murray \) writes example last sunday \( palm sunday \) went local church usually palm sunday , congregation participates reading passion , taking role mob theology behind seems profound say crucify mean , came back today 'd always gives last week invited sit gospel \( passion \) listen besides invitation , palm sunday parish , invited take role jesus passion declined participate last year liturgy meeting pointed crucify christ sins , therefore appropriate retain role crowd , avail musicians , readers , new things introduced course liturgy since one knows 's happening , new things explained , pretty soon instead lot mass 're sitting listening \( spacing , case \) mass done mind , lay blame liturgy committees made lay experts , may think liturgy committee bias toward something rather nothing 's fact bureaucratic life even though simpler liturgy may fact make easier people aware lord 's presence member liturgy committee , tell problem certain people dominating , want try kinds innovations priests n't seem even want make decisions many cases guess 's easier try something new refuse allow parish holy thursday , instead priests washing feet \( wants get around people 's feet , according one priests \) congregation invited come help wash one another 's hands symbolism action distressed , refused participate thought come liturgical action \( e body christ amen receiving communion \) , could responsible blood man also part prayer \( blessed , god creation \) substituted text read lay couple priest certainly given part mass others , disturbed declined receive communion night \( n't required anyway instead offered prayers priests parish \) 've wondering , quality mass going \? n't mean go mass every thursday friday reminded power simple liturgy make us aware god 's presence far obligatory sunday masses maybe offer \) anyone else noticed declining participation catholic masses lately \? quality mass changed , celebrated according set church , would still beautiful problem comes people trying creative think answer question participation could given father peter answer question posed title thomas day 's catholics ca n't sing n't want nonsense way , non catholics reading , problem reflect bad liturgy catholic church , disobedient church changing authority steve creps , indiana university creps lateran ucs indiana edu
kilroy gboro rowan edu \( dr nancy 's sweetie \) subject certainty arrogance organization rowan college new jersey lines 114 dean velasco quoted letter james stowell , president moody bible institute day , dry cleaner radio playing caught attention talk show guest criticizing evangelical christians , saying believe absolutes think ones know absolutes affirm absolutes scripture , arrogant moralists , believe god truth , revealed truth word , therefore hold precious strategic importance absolutes lot discussion , far nobody seems hit exactly criticism arrogance aimed arrogance attacked think ones know absolutes short , many evangelicals claim infallible matter religious texts particular , problem one epistemology , think epistemology know \? question , turns , troubling one problem , bottom , least thinking goes inside head unless certain everything happens head infallible , reasoning discover source truth question means absolute justification source authority means absolute certainty let 's take specific example biblical inerrancy , fictional inerrantist named \( following arguments applies idea papal infallibility , \) , presume , spent time studying bible , history , several topics concluded , based studies \( possibly religious experiences \) bible source absolute truth may correct even , cannot certain correct conclusion depends well studied history may made mistakes , references used may contained mistakes conclusion depends well studied bible may made mistakes conclusion depends reasoning may made mistakes \( noticing common thread yet \? 8 \) everything study world everything happened head limited thinking matter try cover mistakes , never certain infallibility long part belief based reasoning , belief cannot considered absolutely certain believes found source absolute truth belief good quality search made unless say reasoning flawless , conclusions doubt belief hold absolute sources truth depends part thinking way loop infallible thinker absolute certainty beliefs easy demonstrate let 's go back method epistemology know \? imagine hypothetical discussion bible source absolute truth b know \? studied history bible religious writings church teachings came conclusion b know studied history correctly \? well , double checked everything b know double checked correctly \? well , compared answers smart people agreed b smart guy believes something n't mean true know studied correctly \? , see , b eventually get point say ca n't prove mistakes long may made mistake , cannot absolutely certain way loop arrogance christians arises many people believe personal research give absolute certainty doctrines christianity implicitly claiming infallible , possibility mistake claiming cannot made mistake , thinking led flawless conclusion , pretty arrogant people want see argument explained great detail try find infallibility church , george salmon attacking idea pope infallible \( well \) , general argument applies equally well idea bible inerrant darren f provine kilroy gboro rowan edu core well founded belief , lies belief unfounded ludwig wittgenstein
caralv caralv auto trol com \( carol alvin \) subject arrogance christians lines 72 vbv r2d2 eeap cwru edu \( virgilio \( dean \) b velasco jr \) writes article apr 10 05 32 29 1993 athos rutgers edu caralv caralv auto trol com \( carol alvin \) writes truths also absolutes \? scripture truths \( therefore absolutes \) \? answer either questions , perhaps explain determine parts scripture truths , truths absolutes answer questions yes perhaps different definitions absolute , absolute something constant across time , culture , situations , etc true every instance possible agree definition \? think similarly , truth absolute indeed , non absolute truth contradiction terms something absolute \? always true obviously , truth always true contradiction terms simple example new testament \( sorry n't bible work , ca n't provide reference \) , women instructed silent cover heads church , scripture definition , truth therefore absolute women church speak \? cover heads \? scripture absolute truth , seems women speaking coming church bare heads intolerable evangelicals yet , clearly , women speak evangelical churches come bare heads \( least case evangelical churches grew \) evangelicals clearly taking particular part scripture absolute truth \( plenty examples \) reconcile \? many people claim absolutes world statement terribly self contradictory let put way absolutes , n't conclude statement , absolutes absolutely true \? obviously , contradiction n't claim absolutes think , though , determining absolutes difficult one reasons christians defy world claiming indeed absolutes universe hardly consensus , even evangelical christianity \( mention rest christianity \) regarding biblical interpretation \? people sometimes disagree true fact , however , still absolutes universe claiming scripture absolute determine absolutes derived scripture ca n't agree interpret scripture \? 's difficult see claim something based interpretation absolute deny background , education , prejudices , etc come play read bible , determine interpret \? deny fact interpret \? carol alvin caralv auto trol com
allegra att com \( van kelly \) subject prayer jesus' name organization bell laboratories , murray hill , nj , usa lines 39 according read biblical , speaking x 's name standard aramaic hebrew legal idiom today would call power attorney person jesus' culture authorized conduct business john 's name full authority john 's financial affairs , held solemn obligation work john 's benefit john 's wishes required steward preface business transaction john 's name sufficient valid power attorney operating good faith \( note overlap legal religious definitions faith \) cultural background , praying jesus' name mandate particular verbal formula rather requires operating faithfully consciously within analogous relationship jesus purposes kingdom message praying jesus' name thus closely aligned parable talents passages god 's delegation kingdom business , resources responsibilities idea praying jesus' name present prominent lord 's prayer , although verbal absent act praying words jesus' name may beneficial cause us clarify relationship requests advancement god 's kingdom reason , i'm quite ready say praying formula without meaning prayers god purposes \( desperation , anger , , etc \) n't seem category , whether uttered christian non christian , whether b c \( 's b c e c e p c \) n't see anything christ 's words contradict idea god deals prayers according omniscience grace van kelly research att com opinions ,
heath athena cs uga edu \( terrance heath \) subject nature god \( environmentalism paganism \) organization university georgia , athens lines 26 article apr 12 03 42 49 1993 athos rutgers edu mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) writes would like see christians devote bit less effort bashing paganism figuring present gospel pagans christ answer pagans lot right questions unlike , deny need spirituality one things find pagan beliefs belief feminine deity well masculine deity brought christian household , often wondered god father , mother \? everyone know father usually mother seemed rather unbalanced fortunately , personal theology , probably fall line lot others , recognized god without gender qualities , masculine feminine force provides sense balance find sorely lacking , lack think responsible lot unbalanced ways see world treat terrance heath heath athena cs uga edu comfort silence ! ! ! ! ! act ! fight back ! talk back !
matt ksu ksu edu \( jr phillip \) subject accepting jeesus heart organization kansas state university lines 168 disclaimer throughout post , statements questions could easily interpreted sarcastic written reply even handed manner , emotions boiling surface written please accept serious attempt foster dialog rest make every attempt make fun one , except \) gsu0033 uxa ecn bgu edu \( eric molas \) writes firstly , atheist posting immature flame start , rather express opinion intended audience 1 \) human animal , due advanced mental facilities , developed religious solution explain unexplainable hmmm animals planet advanced mental facilities developed religion satisfactory explaination unexplained \? , appears humans need explain unexplained \? animals planet , including advanced mental facilities , seem perfectly content ignorance 'd like point scream unsupported statement 1 \) humans animal 2 \) religion exists crutch unexplained need researched 3 \) religion made humans address perceived need 4 \) biological aspect humans \( , aspects human life categorized hierarchical structure biology apex \) needless say , disagree strong opinion 1 underlying christianity infectious cult reasons flourishes 1 \) gives people without hope driven purpose life safety blanked hide behind oh wow follow christian moral standard get eternal happiness found jeezus , many brink \? disagree christianity infectious cult certainly shown persistent belief system , spite various persecutions throughout past two millenia continues persevere demonstrate infectious sense may provides workable system adherents \( would argue case \) disagree christianity safety blanket hope purpose rather , points individual one source hope purpose nothing hidden christian 's source hope purpose usefulness distinction internally motivated hope purpose externally given hope purpose \? \( apparent \) loss control one 's life problem something else \? finally , one appropriate eternal happiness following christian moral standards indeed , sole reason existance christianity standards inadequate save people imperfections moral standards merely guides christian real power moral living given christian person god 's spirit heaven one two final states christian doctrine postulates however , christians generally motivated live according christian moral standards promised future reward rather , motivated perceived benefits digress reason christianity flourishes infectious nature best friend mine entered christian group within months , set ministry guidelines basicaly said priority 1 spread word many christian organizations concerned evangelism priority , rightly \( jesus gave priority followers \) however , priority evangelism normally understood \( e preach word , convert nearly cost , repeat new convert ad infinitum \) rather , evangelism generally best done respecting opinions others demonstrating real benefits christian lifestyle demonstration powerful non christian seek christian ask \? needless say , demonstration easily \( takes radical committment person jesus \) , happen quickly \( part christian required \) , cannot occur personal bonds friendship exist \( ineffective strangers cannot evaluate demonstration time , easy harm others sole purpose friend gain conversion \) long time christian \( nearly 20 years \) , view evangelism programs incorporate hurry attitude pressured conversions may ultimately worse conversion \( pressured convert realizes coerced christianity would open future taken advantage \) bible states spirit god brings conviction wrong people content part \( witness \) let spirit rest animals need sleep , food , reproduce die far animals sleep , eat , reproduce , die animals true , also capable personal vision humanity \( \) limited , hope pray \) someday find view \( reflection , animals wide variety performing arts humans \? humans learn language humans \( animals \) animals cannot \? humans organize various social structures whereas animals one structure \? \) religion \( especially christianity \) nothing drug blatant assertion christianity physically addictive christianity psychologically addictive christianity thing one shoots relationship living might validly characterize close relationship people use drugs escape reality christians inject jeezus live high jesus freaks let emotional aspects worship christian living gain \( retain \) upper hand even , invalidate foundation things flow many millions lives lost religious wars , christianity small part guilty association \? christianity forces upon another christianity christians see non believer , say person blind truth , cannot realize live mask day jesus prophet happened large influence time romans \( circa \) jewish population communities needed sort element keep strong time dire need appear amazing certainty really happened 2000 years ago come \? cannot accept conclusion jesus' influence sole result roman sack jerusalem 30 years gone time strains bounds assert nothing jesus' life noteworthy sack must go thoughts christianity christianity relationship jesus christ know \? read world wrong phil say us eece ksu edu , stray birds matt ksu ksu edu
eggertj moses atc mit edu \( jim eggert x6127 g41 \) subject really rise \? \? \? reply eggertj atc mit edu organization mit lincoln lab group 41 lines 13 article apr 12 03 44 39 1993 athos rutgers edu reedr cgsvax claremont edu writes real problem christians pacifist preached one god state operates system emperor becomes capital offense jews able get exemption , also evangelistic disagree claim jews evangelistic \( except narrow sense word \) jewish proselytism widespread numerous accounts jewish proselytism , new testament roman greek documents day jim eggertj atc mit edu \( jim eggert \)
eskimo com \( jerry kaufman \) subject questions newbie organization eskimo north \( 206 \) ever lines 27 concept god teacher indeed interesting grade curve , cheat \? interesting mention thought provoking concept father children loves us , love never understand bible says looks heart final measure perspective , grading context , heart final test specifically , christians would agree one heaven one hell perspective , heaven hell either go one grading pass fail basis done god father intervention jesus son others god sees heart bible says heart , know would say always , always , unchanging method makes relationship christ secure uncertain ever changing landscape always yesterday , today tomorrow concerning whether part test , conviction case certainly would n't going heaven bible speaks plainly love care jesus children reality children us bigger bodies grey hair father , father always like fathers wants best maybe , love 's sometimes looks like christianity test , see makes n't pass heaven , n't go place really much experts us travelers looking light way home praying bring others us
dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu \( darius lecointe \) subject eternity hell \( hell \) organization florida state university lines 26 vic mmalt guild org \( vic kulikauskas \) writes moderator writes i'm inclined read descriptions lake fire indicating annihilation however 's minority view 's personal view , denominations know hold officially jw 's sda 's ca n't find reference right , n't c lewis speculate somewhere hell might state human soul \? notion god takes sort pleasure punishing people \? purpose hell destroy devil angels earlier poster tried support eternal hell theory fact fallen angels destroyed , remember bible teaches god reserved day judgement judgement soon come let suggest maybe believe eternal hell theory provide biblical evidence find stay away human theories , take account references bible darius
miner kuhub cc ukans edu subject ancient books organization university kansas academic computing services lines 20 article apr 11 01 02 37 1993 athos rutgers edu , atterlep vela acs oakland edu \( cardinal ximenez \) writes n't think 's possible convince atheists validity christianity argument help foster faith understanding god could wrong former atheists led christianity argument \? excellent question 'll anxious see cases doubt medieval period \( esp 10th cent aquinas flourished \) argument useful tool everyone knew rules today , ca n't count people knowing even basics logic seeing rhetoric , good argument often indistinguishable poor one sorry one perennial gripes ken miner kuhub cc ukans edu nobody explain everything everybody opinions g k chesterton
simon giaeb cc monash edu au \( simon shields \) subject sspx schism \? organization monash university , melb , australia lines 78 hi hope blessed easter document believe refutes notion sspx \( society saint pius x \) schism , legitimate excommunication anyone interested reading truth matter please email 'll send document via email 26 pages long , wont posting news group titled neither schismatic excommunicated article originally english translation , society saint pius x ireland , french journal de french article , turn , translation italian roman newsletter si no' booklet contains transcription , minor editing , irish article , transcribed produced john clay , , queensland , australia \( copyright attached simon shields \) contents neither schismatic excommunicated 1 catholics rack 1 choice 3 ambiguity 4 church \( two headed \) 6 person function pope 6 unity faith unity communion 8 criteria choice 10 attack unity church 10 extraordinary situation within church 11 extraordinary duties lay people 12 duties powers bishops 14 fact greater duties 14 fact greater power 14 power duty papacy 15 election bishops 15 state right necessity 16 1 church real state necessity 17 souls 18 18 2 ordinary means exhausted 19 3 act intrinsically evil 21 4 limits effective requirements 22 5 authority pope put question 23 excommunication 24 conclusion 25 bibliography 26 31 god bless ye , irish may road rise meet may wind always back may sun shine warm upon face , fall soft upon fields , meet , may god hold palm hand simon p shields programmer rey ! ! monash university college ph 61 51 226 357 rd churchill fax 61 51 226 300 australia internet simon giaec cc monash edu au j
dsegard nyx cs du edu \( daniel segard \) subject easter 's name \? \( new testament double stan organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept lines 98 seanna bnr ca \( seanna \( \) watson \) asks objection celebration easter \? objection naturally way phrase easter \( ishtar \) pagan whore goddess fertility therefore , question objection celebration pagan whore goddess \? phrased way suspect \( least would hope \) becomes apparent objection celebrating would celebration resurrection jesus , thinking perhaps ressurection sunday think \( though i'm crazy word sunday , certainly like phrasing much better name whore goddess \) matter , stay biblical call omar \( feast first fruits \) torah commands observed day following sabbath passover week \( sunday name modern \) much objection observing resurrection 1st day week actually occured \? jump calendar way easter \? go sunday following passover way bible \? seek methods \? n't recall command scripture us celebrate resurrection , sole reason christians could celebrate \? question easter \( whore goddess \) \? celebrating resurrection keep whore discussion name problem , suggest concerned etymology , lot words going drop \( aside , terminally pc people ottawa want dictionaries altered negative definitions associated word black , offend people colour yes , heard newspapers speaking need streets afro grin \( still think sounds better though \) short person , hope also remove definition curt surly associated physical description \) fine , left handed people sinister gauche probably objections quarter well quebec french , word celebration resurrection pa ques etymologically related pesach \( passover \) pascal lamb french canadian \( mostly roman catholic \) celebration better uses right name \? yes , sounds much better anyone would thinks phrasing sounds worse \? infer different rules christians jewish descent \? happened neither jew greek , slave free , male female , one christ jesus \? read letter tell , 's slave returned \? different rules upon slave upon \? male female \? different rules apply well \? male female adam steve get married congregation \? yes , differences form function way come salvation messiah remains matter position life general favor continuing discussion , seems repetitive , particular point one believe new objection holiday name 'd like suggest people think carefully argument words often change meaning time days week course originally based pagan gods christians prefer refer first day , second day , etc however majority christians persuaded question seems whether makes difference dictionary shows derivation word , people mean think use different indeed 'd like suggest postings like could dangerous suppose people general use easter mean celebration christ 's resurrection postings trying convince really mean celebration honor run risk creating exactly situation claim oppose best create linkage people 's minds celebration pagan goddess 's clear healthy thing clh
christian geneva rutgers edu subject end discussion easter lines 2 closed i'm real , tonight 's posting
mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) subject 'easter' derived organization ai programs , university georgia , athens lines 22 several recent posts identified english word 'easter' babylonian goddess 'easter' pagan word right , nothing ishtar 'easter' related , history would show old english , easter , english german reconstructed proto form 1400 'easter' high front vowel like clearly , two words quite separate origins may neo pagans worship ishtar easter , , making either mistake etymology , deliberate play words michael covington \( ph , linguistics \) michael covington , associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu university georgia phone 706 542 0358 athens , georgia 30602 7415 u amateur radio n4tmi
revdak netcom com \( andrew kille \) subject easter 's name \? \( new testament double stan organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 40 daniel segard \( dsegard nyx cs du edu \) wrote lot stuff deleted matter , stay biblical call omar \( feast first fruits \) torah commands observed day following sabbath passover week \( sunday name modern \) much objection observing resurrection 1st day week actually occured \? jump calendar way easter \? go sunday following passover way bible \? seek methods \? fact , reason easter jumps calendar lunar holiday , solar one , thus falls wide possible span times times easter fall passover easter linked equinox beginning spring deletions question easter \( whore goddess \) \? celebrating resurrection keep whore discussion obsession term whore clouds argument whore value judgement , descriptive term deletions overall , argument illustration fallacy \( see j p semantics nt greek \) idea true meaning word lies origins linguistic form fact , experience demonstrates meaning word bound used , came modern people would make connection whatsoever easter ishtar daniel , meaning highly meaning , one needs much refutation revdak netcom com
b1 ingr com \( todd stevens \) subject rebuilding temple \( anybody \? \) organization ingr lines 14 chuck petch writes appears nothing stands way rebuilding resuming sacrifices , scriptures indicate happen last days although israeli government give permission start , think hand god holding project ready let happen brothers sisters , time hand redemption drawing near look ! scriptural levitical priesthood resumed \? jews legitimately prove \? todd stevens b1 ingr com
marka amber ssd csd harris com \( mark ashley \) subject easter 's name \? \( new testament double stan organization ft lauderdale , fl lines 30 article apr 13 01 04 21 1993 686 athos rutgers edu dsegard nyx cs du edu \( daniel segard \) writes seanna bnr ca \( seanna \( \) watson \) asks objection celebration easter \? objection naturally way phrase easter \( ishtar \) pagan whore goddess fertility celebration resurrection jesus , thinking perhaps ressurection sunday think tsk tsk much argument non issues ! i'm roman catholic seems people celebrate easter christmas rather relates jesus n't really care diety people definition easter , 's business n't let interfere easter resurrection sunday 8 \) come \? people celebrate easter bunny , 's business infer different rules christians jewish descent \? happened neither jew greek , slave free , male female , one christ jesus \? 've always curious jesus important jews \? thought thought prophet \? 's true celebrate easter \?
gifford oasys dt navy mil \( barbara gifford \) subject mystery paradox reply gifford oasys dt navy mil \( barbara gifford \) organization carderock division , nswc , bethesda , md lines 9 looking book specifically addresses mystery god paradox read touch subject chapter would like detailed read anyone aware books deal subject please e mail thanks barbara
randerso acad1 sahs uth tmc edu \( robert anderson \) subject two people married god 's eyes \? organization univ texas houston allied health sci lines 18 would like get opinions exactly engaged couple become married god 's eyes \? say two publically announced plans marry , made vows god , unswervingly committed one another \( realize subjective qualifier \) married joined god 's sight suppose unable get altar right current time purely reasons beyond control think \? post e mail general responses need clarification asking , please e mail thanks god bless ! robert anderson iii randerso acad1 sahs uth tmc edu
jsledd ssdc sas upenn edu \( james sledd \) subject proof resurection organization social science computing lines 44 minor problems article posted proof christ 's resurrection first scriptural quotations sort reasoning beleive justified , vain , might well beleive quotations people beleive people would try justify positions second logical proof quoted text xx155 yfn ysu edu \( family magazine sysops \) subject witness proof resurrection date 11 apr 93 05 01 19 gmt much deleted 4 nearly 20 centuries , body ever produced refute jesus' assertion would indeed rise dead 5 probability able hoax successfully upon entire world nearly 20 centuries negative ! end quoted text period time elapsed event growing larger increase odds hoax would discovered fact longer hoax stronger becomes finally proof resurrection christ , except spirits communion , father 's matter faith , belief without logical proof one largest stumbling blocks rational western man , included hope taken spirit intended rejection resurrection 's occurance beleive , wanted point weakness logical proofs
maridai comm mot com \( marida ignacio \) subject every lent suffers save us organization trunking fixed lines 17 correction story related one seven apparitions approved church worthy belief happened la , france la , france , must admit , geography forte , lamb succeeds marida spreading god 's words actions mother teresa
vbv r2d2 eeap cwru edu \( virgilio \( dean \) b velasco jr \) subject arrogance christians organization case western reserve univ cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 72 article apr 13 00 08 35 1993 athos rutgers edu caralv caralv auto trol com \( carol alvin \) writes vbv r2d2 eeap cwru edu \( virgilio \( dean \) b velasco jr \) writes article apr 10 05 32 29 1993 athos rutgers edu caralv caralv auto trol com \( carol alvin \) writes truths also absolutes \? scripture truths \( therefore absolutes \) \? answer either questions , perhaps explain determine parts scripture truths , truths absolutes answer questions yes perhaps different definitions absolute , absolute something constant across time , culture , situations , etc true every instance possible agree definition \? think similarly , truth absolute indeed , non absolute truth contradiction terms something absolute \? always true obviously , truth always true contradiction terms yes , agree definition use term always rather deceptive , admit simple example new testament \( sorry n't bible work , ca n't provide reference \) , women instructed silent cover heads church , scripture definition , truth therefore absolute hold said scripture true however , discerning exactly jesus , paul company trying say always easy n't believe paul trying say women behave way rather , trying say circumstances time , women speaking would best avoid cover heads maintaining proper witness toward others remember number relativistic statements derived absolutes instance , absolutely right christians strive peace however , rule trying maintain world peace resorting violence occasion \( yes , opinion \) evangelicals clearly taking particular part scripture absolute truth \( plenty examples \) reconcile \? sure bible preaches absolute truths however , exactly truths sometimes matter confusion said , bible preach absolute truths sometimes fundamental principles crystal clear \( least evangelicals \) sometimes clear everyone \( e g baptism full , etc \) largely sometimes , explicitly spelled whether writers speaking particular culture christianity whole scholarship study biblical contexts comes 's difficult see claim something based interpretation absolute god revealed truths world , word utterly unavoidable , however , people come alternate interpretations practically anything misinterpreted , especially comes matters right wrong care deny \? virgilio dean velasco jr , department electrical eng'g applied physics cwru graduate student , roboticist training q wannabee bullwinkle , man 's intimidating referee ! boss well n't look like one ! jewish carpenter
king ctron com \( john e king \) subject eternity hell \( hell \) organization cabletron systems inc lines 8 db7n andrew cmu edu \( andrew byler \) writes also know impossible destroy soul hmmm 's food thought rather fear destroy soul body gehenna math 10 28 jack
netcom com \( david hawkins \) subject need help came jews quote organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 19 years ago grabbed following net maybe newsgroup anyone know source whether accurate quote \? thanks ! leaves homosexual lines , one groups nazis tried exterminate germany , first came communists , n't speak n't communist came jews , n't speak n't jew came trade , n't speak n't trade came homosexuals , n't speak n't homosexual came catholics , n't speak protestant came time one left speak pastor martin
johnsd2 rpi edu \( dan johnson \) subject accepting jeesus heart reply johnsd2 rpi edu organization sun microsystems lines 95 article 28388 athos rutgers edu , jayne mmalt guild org \( jayne kulikauskas \) writes gsu0033 uxa ecn bgu edu \( eric molas \) writes firstly , atheist posting immature flame start , rather express opinion intended audience deleted animals need sleep , food , reproduce die n't meant defend eric molas find somewhat annoying someone pops alt atheism tell us \( usually atheistic \) beliefs , certainly see christians might annoyed 'd like point things glad atheist seems tragic people choose meaningless existence meaning god meaning \( atheistic \) point view , want meaning life , get go get make free gifts meaning \( never quite understood god give life meaning , actually says exists x , gives purpose care accept , thing \? digress \) terrible go living one fears death life would truely miserably existance , doubt eric life enjoyable , live like , , live get something done one endeavour make , otherwise would say terrible feel sorry eric yet attempts share joy life would considered evidence infectious nature christianity probably true remeber almost certainly sees particular joy illusion , want maybe n't bad \? christian free human person think , love , choose , create atheist , free human person think , love , choose , create live forever god ah , begin diverge live forever anyone \( n't think either , welcome opinion matter \) christ kind drug tend agree 's opinion \( unlike drugs \) religions normal parts human societies think , evidently quite ordinary , normal things n't proved lethal humanity yet drugs replacement christ empty spot god shaped hole hearts must something ease pain heard claim quite times anybody know first came god shaped hole business \? effective substance abuse recovery programs involve meeting peoples' spiritual needs might want provide evidence next time make claim like thank , eric post helped appreciate much god blessed hope someday joy filled abundant life n't know eric , think wise assume less joy filled abundant life holds certain beliefs dan johnson god said jeeze , dull dull genesis 0 0 opinions probably show know
mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) subject clarification easter organization ai programs , university georgia , athens lines 23 response lot email 've gotten , need clarify position favor paganism favor easter bunny non christian aspects easter presently celebrated \( incidentally , easter eggs non christian way ending fast \) point distinguish \( 1 \) intentionally worshipping pagan deity , \( 2 \) something may pagan associations , nowadays understood intended many people \( 2 \) accused \( 1 \) would illogical claim one really worshipping pagan deity without knowing worship matter intention one cannot worship without knowing one michael covington , associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu university georgia phone 706 542 0358 athens , georgia 30602 7415 u amateur radio n4tmi
halat panther bears \( jim halat \) subject prophetic warning new york city reply halat panther bears \( jim halat \) lines 8 started reading group wondering someone could post exactly prophetic warning nyc thanks jh suggest sending via email cc 'll hold files case someone else needs clh
psuvm psu edu subject sex marriages organization penn state university lines 17 talk recently latin rites early church used bless sex unions anyone idea copies rites exist \( whole part \) , please notify e mail \( understand similar ceremonies written exist well let know find \) n't matter whether latin rite original translation however , would prefer english version ic rite , exists thanks advance doug hayes psu 've questions past source know claims john boswell talks said working publication , far know , nothing published yet n't heard source anyone knows another source , please tell us think 're going wait boswell 's publication appear order see 's really talking clh
wagner grace math uh edu \( david wagner \) subject eternity hell \( hell \) organization uh dept math lines 27 darius darius lecointe dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu writes darius vic mmalt guild org \( vic kulikauskas \) writes darius let suggest maybe believe eternal darius hell theory provide biblical evidence darius find stay away human theories , take darius account references bible like topics , 've one , good start matthew 25 46 go away eternal punishment , righteous eternal life may post subject time case , clear fate damned unpleasant , avoided david wagner sola scriptura ! confessional lutheran 'd like suggest discussions based single quotations bad way proceed passages consistent either theory sensible way proceed look , see come view encompasses clh
wquinnan sdcc13 ucsd edu \( malcusco \) subject question bee bothering organization university california , san diego lines 56 article apr 11 01 02 39 1993 athos rutgers edu atterlep vela acs oakland edu \( cardinal ximenez \) writes religious people threatened science systematically removing physical proofs god 's existence time goes rely faith spiritual world relate god becuase science removing props n't think bad thing first , resent assumption know threatened science , even threatened , although admit latter reason threatened science nothing need proof lord 's existence god reveals many ways , including , degree , science problem science often allows us assume know best god endowed us ability produce life sexual relations , example , make availible everyone mean science ride god 's decision alterations , god wills us power decide able children \? men allowed babies , made possible people always ability end lives , soon may ability bring lives world closest thing artificially created life artificially created death , god reserved judgement people die , believe rely god 's wisdom people brought world say reject forms medical treatment , however treatment alleviates pain , prevents pain occuring , perfectly acceptable , believe , acceptable jesus cure sick however , treatment merely life reason , makes unnecessary alterations body mere aesthetic purposes , go far happy beauty god gave us \? cannot draw solid line regarding would approve scientific study , would , say one experiments universe find secrets , one ask want knowledge one body given , ask body satisfactory cannot make general rules cover cases , say person pray guidance trying mysteries universe , cease reason believe search god malcusco
mayne ds3 scri fsu edu \( bill mayne \) subject ancient books organization supercomputer computations research institute lines 25 article apr 13 00 09 02 1993 28445 athos rutgers edu miner kuhub cc ukans edu writes former atheists converted argument \? excellent question 'll anxious see cases doubt medieval period \( esp 10th cent aquinas flourished \) argument useful tool everyone knew rules today , ca n't count people knowing even basics logic seeing rhetoric , good argument often indistinguishable poor one last sentence ironic , since many readers soc religion christian seem embarrassed apologists josh mcdowell c lewis also expresses rather odd sense history makes think masses day , mostly illiterate , knew rhetoric logic people today \? writings period seem elevated consider cream crop , speak , could read write everyone medieval period knew rules matter uncritically accepting told bill mayne may unfair lewis prominent fallacy attributed liar , lunatic , lord quoted many christians , logical fallacy original context , clh
fox graphics cs nyu edu \( david fox \) subject pantheism environmentalism organization courant institute mathematical sciences lines 17 article apr 13 00 08 04 1993 athos rutgers edu mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) writes article apr 12 03 44 17 1993 athos rutgers edu heath athena cs uga edu \( terrance heath \) writes realize i'm entering discussion rather late , one question n't reagan appointee , james watt , pentacostal christian \( think \) secretary interior saw problem deforestation since living last days would last generation see redwoods anyway \? heard thing , without confirmation actually said alarming us bible says nobody knows second coming take place say find happen rape everything sight
shellgate ! llo uu4 psi com \( larry l overacker \) subject arrogance christians organization shell oil lines 109 article apr 13 00 08 35 1993 athos rutgers edu caralv caralv auto trol com \( carol alvin \) writes vbv r2d2 eeap cwru edu \( virgilio \( dean \) b velasco jr \) writes article apr 10 05 32 29 1993 athos rutgers edu caralv caralv auto trol com \( carol alvin \) writes truths also absolutes \? scripture truths \( therefore absolutes \) \? answer questions yes perhaps different definitions absolute , absolute something constant across time , culture , situations , etc true every instance possible agree definition \? think similarly , truth absolute indeed , non absolute truth contradiction terms something absolute \? always true obviously , truth always true contradiction terms agree carol determining absolutes , practically speaking , waste time easily forget relative truth , fact relative example , recently asking children question temperature water boil \? got answer 212 degrees consistently asked knew scale , told 's 212 degrees scale 's say well , 's sincere , may true experience speaker , simply wrong absolute truth similarly , scripture full truth , cherish , trying determine parts absolute truth parts manifestations context time culture text missing point religion easily becomes intellectual head trip , devoid living experience trinity becomes dead , imo example head covering church deleted good example may absolute truth behind writing , simplest understanding passage instructions apply corinthians , necessarily elsewhere instructions may reflect absolute truth context first century culture particular climate , lot trouble order absolute truth \? see compelling , even reasonable , reason evangelicals clearly taking particular part scripture absolute truth \( plenty examples \) reconcile \? even die hard literalists take bible literally 've yet meet anyone takes verse blessed takes babies heads rocks literally bible printed handed us god color tell us parts interpreted way many people claim absolutes world statement terribly self contradictory let put way absolutes , n't conclude statement , absolutes absolutely true \? obviously , contradiction n't claim absolutes think , though , determining absolutes difficult agree even knew , personally , may able express way still conveys absolute truth another presence absence absolutes may make difference , since know never fully apprehend absolute walks hardly consensus , even evangelical christianity \( mention rest christianity \) regarding biblical interpretation \? people sometimes disagree true fact , however , still absolutes universe ca n't prove existence absolutes rely upon experience also trust god 's revelation cannot fully comprehend infinite therefore ca n't comprehend absolutes n't need never know essence god , energies god manifested god 's creation reality absolutes , practical importance 's like claiming original scriptural perfect , copies may swell cares \? n't affect practical useful way might well believe god made lot electric blue , live mars maybe god \? going effect deal neighbor , god \? whether go cafeteria lunch \? attitude leads many non christians believe christians arrogant idiots incapable critical reasoning christianity true , wonderful sensible appeals reason , since reason inner reflection logos god explanations violate simply appear insecure authoritarian responses complex world note i'm claiming place authority 'd silly world difference authoritative authoritarian authoritative en expression authority respects others authoritarian en expression authority fails , generally agressive good parents \( like god \) authoritative many christians simply authoritarian , , surprisingly , adults respond treatment larry overacker \( llo shell com \) lawrence overacker shell oil company , information center houston , tx \( 713 \) 245 2965 llo shell com
jasons atlastele com \( jason smith \) subject atheist 's views christianity \( accepting jeesus heart \) organization atlas telecom inc lines 91 article apr 13 00 08 22 1993 athos rutgers edu trajan cwis unomaha edu \( stephen mcintyre \) writes norris athena mit edu writes discussion begins universe exist \? must \? ask also assume god namely , exists , existence question reversed , ca n't assume universe exists assume god exist \? must universe \? one laws nature , specifying cause effect seems dictate \( least layman 's mind \) must causal event reasonable alternative exists far tell , laws nature demand n't true something outside nature \( e , super natural \) may one day man create life also create man , n't see happening lifetime , assert probable possibility , given scientists working hard decoding genetic code perhaps help cure disease genetic variation , though , must divine man 's existence \? believe genetic code entirely deciphered lifetimes , see man convert entirely inert material self sustaining , reproducing life , ever \( 've never much prophet , though ca n't even picture new york mind 8 \) n't believe technology would able produce necessary spark life , despite parts available opinion say man animal , think presenting unprovable statement dogma , one requires kind faith taking hard line atheism , may stumbled religion far tell , man falls mammal catagory , sort precludes absolute , n't \? without absolute conclusion , left \? believe word faith works nicely something man \( say , soul \) , yet find evidence , man mammal \( babies born live , mother gives milk , 're warm blooded , etc \) mammals similar genetic construction \( particular , primates \) check talk origins write christianity phony shallow , hope 'll little research history varieties , perhaps reading paul johnson 's history christianity remarks , seems exposed certain types christian religion others even atheist enough faith man know movement 2000 years depth , animated enduring values well , , buddhism , , taoism , hinduism , judaism , , , islam fit bit logic quite nicely \) depth , enduring values , thus must true well , equal scale , equal standard , investigate , discover god \( whether , denial god ultimately statement faith , non falsifiable existence may \) n't purpose religion discover , discovery , know god \? n't mind us send prayer behalf research , \? , christ deluding , really nothing worry , eh \? king returns , jason jason smith jasons atlastele com i'm young enough know everything 1x1
mhsu lonestar utsa edu \( melinda hsu \) subject arrogance christians organization university texas san antonio lines 26 believe danger real , others may mean first group necessarily arrogant warning others danger \? mean saying beliefs correct , others false \? might indeed react opposition arrogance , behave arrogant manner , personal necessarily mean arrogant members first group necessarily arrogant ask absolutely certain volcano erupt , expect say , 've chosen believe knowledgable people determined volcano erupt , rather , yes , absolutely certain comes religious discussions , arrogance best naivete reflected latter type statement louis j kim ph 512 522 southwest research institute , ' fax 512 522 post office drawer swri edu san antonio , tx compuserve com
shellgate ! llo uu4 psi com \( larry l overacker \) subject sspx schism \? organization shell oil lines 34 article apr 13 00 09 07 1993 athos rutgers edu simon giaeb cc monash edu au \( simon shields \) writes hi hope blessed easter document believe refutes notion sspx \( society saint pius x \) schism , legitimate excommunication anyone interested reading truth matter please email 'll send document via email 26 pages long , wont posting news group may interesting see brief selections posted net understanding sspx consider schism legitimately excommunicated 's really beside point roman catholic church say \? excommunication real apart formal excommunication , provided canon law orthodox n't schismatic excommunicated catholic church considers us dissident inappropriate group beyond charter , i'm sure ofm let us know larry overacker \( llo shell com \) lawrence overacker shell oil company , information center houston , tx \( 713 \) 245 2965 llo shell com think 's within charter whether actually best group discuss people concerned interested general catholic protestant , n't see issue primarily one specific catholics clh
bassili cs arizona edu \( z bassili \) subject need book lines 4 appreciate anyone point good books dead sea scrolls qumran thanks advance please reply e mail bassili cs arizona edu
holfeltz lstc2vm stortek com subject lazarus smell like \? organization storagetek sw engineering lines 20 article apr 10 05 31 34 1993 athos rutgers edu rolfe dsuvax dsu edu \( tim rolfe \) writes guess lazarus , come ! also sake crowd read somewhere , think morton smith 's jesus , old lazarus n't dead , going tomb part initiation rite magi cult , jesus also part appears 3 day stay normal wonder \? n't read book , another one smith similar claims made jesus i'm sure smith knows early , found arguments similar books like holy blood , holy grail building top direct evidence 'd like summarize argument us , 'd happy see , 'd like pay careful attention nature evidence clh
aaronc athena mit edu \( aaron bryce cardenas \) subject questions newbie organization massachusetts institute technology lines 7 jerry kaufman writes bible says looks heart final measure perspective , grading context , heart final test true one might also say life open book test
mbl edu \( robert \) subject pantheism environmentalism organization marine biological laboratory lines 39 article apr 13 00 08 04 1993 athos rutgers edu , mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) writes article apr 12 03 44 17 1993 athos rutgers edu heath athena cs uga edu \( terrance heath \) writes realize i'm entering discussion rather late , one question n't reagan appointee , james watt , pentacostal christian \( think \) secretary interior saw problem deforestation since living last days would last generation see redwoods anyway \? heard thing , without confirmation actually said alarming us bible says nobody knows second coming take place michael covington recall watt making comment effect , though quite years back ca n't cite specifics also recall cecil , secretary interior carter administration , responded watt 's comments pointing role god gave man , recorded genesis makes wonder true conservatives \? seems conservative want conserve things value long term societal benefit form conservation logically extend physical environment people live , well moral environment relate one another god imho , watt 's status enhanced fact served board directors jim bakker 's organization , time bakker committed criminal acts eventually landed bakker federal prison bob mbl edu another baptist
ccscola columbiasc ncr com \( wyatt \) subject quality catholic liturgy organization ncr corp , e columbia , columbia , sc lines 79 article apr 13 00 08 27 1993 athos rutgers edu creps lateran ucs indiana edu \( stephen creps \) writes article apr 10 05 30 16 1993 athos rutgers edu jemurray magnus acs ohio state edu \( john e murray \) writes palm sunday parish , invited take role jesus passion declined participate last year liturgy meeting pointed crucify christ sins , therefore appropriate retain role crowd , avail musicians , readers , new things introduced course liturgy since one knows 's happening , new things explained , pretty soon instead lot mass 're sitting listening \( spacing , case \) mass done mind , lay blame liturgy committees made lay people aware lord 's presence former catholic active lutheran innovations mass made leave catholic church return traditional catholic lutherans spent many years reading passion parts appropriate catholic church found meaningful lutheran parish instituted service good friday paraphrased passion exceptional heard learned things previously overlooked gospels yet facts always matter interest , pastor talking differences rc lutheran church holy week breakfast easter sunday member liturgy committee , tell problem certain people dominating , want try kinds innovations priests n't seem even want make decisions many cases guess 's easier try something new refuse allow wife member liturgy committee family \( called music worship church \) pastor control committee listens carefully committee 's suggestions needs strong hand lead guide , keep intent message clear strong lent rest liturgical year additional reason leaving catholic faith lack spiritual guidance priests parishes aka may gather comments , feel important , ir regardless denominational guidelines , service mass promotes true reason gathered quite comfortable traditional mass , receiving holy communion tongue , \( reconciliation \) , stations cross , forth reason types masses parishes exist feelings shared everyone want people attend church find lord , n't want attending show 's church works hard meaningful service lent , follow traditional lutheran book worship guidelines things changed omitted lent \( hymn praise \) noted aware reasons quite frankly , hard non catholic go mass fit dear wife never could \( former methodist \) holy week masses would intimidate non catholic catholics far understand mean please keep mind gather together worship worry something done done something wrong feel needs addressing , means talk priest pastor ever met one would n't listen provide spiritual guidance help use differences catholic church much fundamental decision change faiths done prayer , intervention , sessions priests ministers christ , wyatt ccscola columbiasc ncr com opinions n't necessarily employer 's
nusunix1 nus sg \( yung gene \) subject mission aviation fellowship organization national university singapore lines 3 hi , anyone know anything group \? info would appreciated thanks !
healta saturn wwc edu \( tammy r healy \) subject sda doctrinal organization walla walla college lines 15 article mar 17 02 04 45 1993 athos rutgers edu jodfishe silver ucs indiana edu \( joseph dale fisher \) writes book provided sda entitled seventh day adventist church believes , something like basic coverage 30 ideas sda 's hold info , please write later \( get actual title copyright date \) chan , amber ucs indiana edu , first introduced book \( must also add member sda anymore \) book called 27 basic fundamental beliefs something close number 27 , 30 copy home \( i'm away school \) tammy
xx155 yfn ysu edu \( family magazine sysops \) subject national day prayer reply xx155 yfn ysu edu \( family magazine sysops \) organization st elizabeth hospital , youngstown , oh lines 54 n n l f p r e r 6 1 9 9 3 join america prayer acknowledge dependence upon god give thanks many blessings ask god guide leaders bring healing , reconciliation whole ness nation people founding fathers said george washington make earnest prayer god \( \) would pleased dispose us justice , love mercy , charity humility , pacific temper mind , characteristics divine author blessed religion , without humble imitation whose example things , never hope happy nation john adams must felt national security \( 1853 \) nation 's humble , acknowledged dependence upon god providence abraham lincoln duty nations , well men , \( \) dependence upon power god , confess sins transgressions recognize sublime truth , announced holy scriptures proven history , nations blessed whose god lord note join people area observing national day prayer learn affiliated concerts prayer group area , contact mr barry , coordinator p box , arkansas voice \( 501 \) 756 fax \( 501 \) 756
andy bgsu edu \( sherlette dixon \) subject christianity atheism update organization bgsu lines 32 first , would like thank sent opinions matter hand advice taken heart , directly used friend found matter quite accidently reading mail , quit mail reader went business must trashed mail improperly , got terminal next day saw old messages thought responses post placed alt atheism earlier week , read realizing got message next day apologized reading mail said want appear snoop said would willing talk views n't mind , especially friend neither changed mind change mine , point knows i'm coming know 's coming pray , 've always done believe reason click instead bash heads see christianity tool revolution , tool maintaining status quo quite blunt , reason reject god fact african american female christianity religion used tools separate people true knowledge history wealth contributions world society kitchen heaven look forward slave days , mentality second class status still exists today , , rejected aspect christianity church much exists behind walls god 's house beginning images white jesus members praise god sunday raise hell beginning monday god willing , find church home feel comfortable home , n't see happening anytime soon sherlette
mike nx39 mik uky edu \( mike mattone \) subject sex education organization university kentucky , dept math sciences lines 17 regarding moral question jen \( jenk microsoft com \) asked okay create child n't able good parent \? , reminded speech one characters \( ca n't remember \) movie parenthood way liberal quotation marks tonight called \( \) speech , character expressing lousy father made interesting point said something effect license drive car license dog even license fish , 'll anyone kid keep mind , way , trying pass quote probably grossly distorted think get point mike mattone
mcovingt ai uga edu \( michael covington \) subject nature god \( environmentalism paganism \) organization ai programs , university georgia , athens lines 18 article apr 13 00 08 44 1993 athos rutgers edu heath athena cs uga edu \( terrance heath \) writes fortunately , personal theology , probably fall line lot others , recognized god without gender qualities , masculine feminine force necessarily unorthodox christians call god , using metaphor bible one place refers god like mother god neither father mother literal sense god attributes father metaphor usually used \( people times \) less misleading two possibilities michael covington , associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu university georgia phone 706 542 0358 athens , georgia 30602 7415 u amateur radio n4tmi
petch gvg47 gvg tek com \( chuck petch \) subject daily verse organization grass valley group , grass valley , ca lines 4 overcomes inherit , god son revelation 21 7
alvin spot colorado edu \( kenneth alvin \) subject certainty arrogance organization university colorado , boulder lines 66 article apr 13 00 08 33 1993 athos rutgers edu kilroy gboro rowan edu \( dr nancy 's sweetie \) writes dean velasco quoted letter james stowell , president moody bible institute affirm absolutes scripture , arrogant moralists , believe god truth , revealed truth word , therefore hold precious strategic importance absolutes lot discussion , far nobody seems hit exactly criticism arrogance aimed lots stuff deleted arrogance christians arises many people believe personal research give absolute certainty doctrines christianity implicitly claiming infallible , possibility mistake claiming cannot made mistake , thinking led flawless conclusion , pretty arrogant agree darren say , would like add personal observation see arrogance problem sense personal certainty , lack respect others come differing conclusions clearly , christian vs non christian whole spectrum belief systems within christianity tend argue others matters personal faith , like aesthetics , objective means choosing believe rely important areas personal sovereignty bothers others suggest , matters faith , specific beliefs true absolute binding others follows god must give everyone revelation truth , thus anyone comes different conclusion intentionally choosing wrong path arrogance see lack respect honest conclusions others matters god even personal certainty leaves room beliefs others matters personal faith , coupled proud notion one 's relationship god superior 's , leads arrogance honest \( \) opinion \) darren f provine kilroy gboro rowan edu core well founded belief , lies belief unfounded ludwig wittgenstein comments , criticism welcome ken alvin ucsu colorado edu certainly reasonable ask humility ability know truth also different paths areas practice 'd like see clarification mean reject idea saying specific beliefs true absolute binding others something true , true everyone , assuming belief something god , history , etc course something form believe 's best xxx could true people others suggested past god may less concerned doctrinal agreement many people n't mean doubt difference true false , think benefit finding true clh
dsegard nyx cs du edu \( daniel segard \) subject easter 's name \? \( new testament double stan organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept lines 15 mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) writes goes cultural practices festival easter may possibly historical association pagan festival , today , far know , christians intend honor kind pagan goddess celebrating easter argument would compelling ishtar eggs ishtar bunnies mix pagan fertility symbols worship pagan goddess fertility biblical belief \? would really lost drop word easter replace occurances resurrection sunday \? would show services called resurrection sunday services rather easter services \?
emery tc fluke com \( john emery \) subject sin block prayers \? organization john fluke mfg co , inc , everett , wa lines 28 article apr 12 03 45 11 1993 athos rutgers edu jayne mmalt guild org \( jayne kulikauskas \) writes verse also makes think kind husband decides god 's family without consulting wife god reveals husband wife needs degree decision making even whose understanding bible leads belief authoritarian husband need incorporate order functional family one way look god speaks wife husband husband wife jayne kulikauskas jayne mmalt guild org agree god makes husband head house surely ca n't alone needs help beloved wife lord gave least 's house thank god beautiful woman brought life could n't lead without help wonderful wife john emery praise , lord god , heart emery tc fluke com glorify name forever great love toward delivered depths grave \( psalm 86 12 13 \)
reedr cgsvax claremont edu subject really rise \? \? \? organization claremont graduate school lines 15 article apr 13 00 08 56 1993 athos rutgers edu , eggertj moses atc mit edu \( jim eggert x6127 g41 \) writes disagree claim jews evangelistic \( except narrow sense word \) jewish proselytism widespread numerous accounts jewish proselytism , new testament roman greek documents day jim , please feel free correct give texts far see text relates jewish evangelism found mt 23 15 however since found mt cannot dated makes understanding second temple judaism randy
whitsebd nextwork rose hulman edu \( bryan whitsell \) subject accepting jesus heart reply whitsebd nextwork rose hulman edu organization computer science department rose hulman lines 20 stuff deleted religion \( especially christianity \) nothing drug people use drugs escape reality christians inject jeezus live high logic christianity drug , die die , would reluctant drug alive enjoy also question overall motives posting article would waste seconds earth posting group generally reject die , never christ savior , hope fantastic life dreamed al heaven ever know christ 's love , bryan
atterlep vela acs oakland edu \( cardinal ximenez \) subject arrogance christians organization national association disorganized lines 35 mhsu lonestar utsa edu \( melinda hsu \) writes 'd like share thoughts topic arrogance christians look forward responses encounters christians , find dismayed belief faith total truth according , beliefs come bible bible word god god truth thus know truth stance makes difficult discuss faiths christianity see way way ' see faith arising willful choice believe particular way choice part faith part reason , seems choice i'm sort mystified christian might respond 'll start parable christian woman hires carpenter build comes , begin talking religion believe understand god \? asks yes , , replies build n't think melinda complaining basis christian belief however , tendency among christians say , answers god gave simply case believe bible inerrant however , human interpretations bible necessarily error , human imperfect remember make mistakes faith , human imperfect understanding mind god claim , many people , existence bible allows us determine answers questions claim humans fully understand god 's hubris
mussack austin ibm com \( chris mussack \) subject arrogance christians reply mussack austin ibm com lines 14 article apr 10 05 32 15 1993 14385 athos rutgers edu , dleonar andy bgsu edu \( pixie \) writes words question authority mean anything \? defy theist reply people insist question authority \? chris mussack \( another example biting , raw edged humor neither appreciated understood everyone \) 8 \) messy hair , glasses , , smiling , big chin
roc slac stanford edu \( stephen f \) subject ancient books organization stanford linear accelerator center lines 18 article apr 10 05 32 47 1993 athos rutgers edu , pacbell com \( wilson heydt \) writes dating oldest extant texts nt would feel us civil war couple thousand years extant text written \? adjust largely illiterate population , one every copy manuscript done hand considerably better feel , say , wars , war \( spelling optional \) , almost event classical history close events think oldest extent manuscripts cases \? steve unixhub slac stanford edu opinions expressed may mine , may slac , stanford university , doe
nusunix1 nus sg \( ling wee \) subject online bible bible study organization national university singapore lines 33 hello , bible study acts online bible software would like know background authors various topics articles author people 's new testament need know articles online bible software specifically \( convenience \) want know 1 darby translation \( never heard one \) 2 young 's literal translation \( also never heard \) 3 realiability hebrew greek lexicon 4 authors \( denomination etc \) articles topics modules 5 realiability treasury scripture knowlege \( never heard \) 6 commentators , scofield b w johnson wrote scofield reference bible people 's new testament respectively 7 realiability strong numbers happy receive reply knows also , please may know receiving letter want make sure wilfred ling name wilfred ling wee national university internet nus sg electrical engineering bitnet nusvm bitnet
sbuckley sfu ca \( stephen buckley \) subject arrogance christians organization simon fraser university , burnaby , b c , canada lines 22 dleonar andy bgsu edu \( pixie \) writes , pixie p sincerely believe god exists , follow blindly \? words question authority mean anything \? defy theist reply k n't follow god blindly , long ago , questioned authority rabid point found question authority reject authority unquestioningly question authority time forever question fruitless eventually consider whether answers questions , whether authority say , bible case validity basically question authority necessarily mean reject authority
cctr114 cantua canterbury ac nz \( bill rea \) subject arrogance christians organization university canterbury , christchurch , new zealand lines 68 carol alvin \( caralv caralv auto trol com \) wrote new testament \( sorry n't bible work , ca n't provide reference \) , women instructed silent cover heads church , scripture definition , truth therefore absolute women church speak \? cover heads \? scripture absolute truth , seems women speaking coming church bare heads intolerable evangelicals yet , clearly , women speak evangelical churches come bare heads \( least case evangelical churches grew \) evangelicals clearly taking particular part scripture absolute truth \( plenty examples \) reconcile \? problem see christians claim things bible n't actually believe practice 've known sorts christians , ranging liberals fire breathing fundamentalists , although many conservative side christian faith claim bible \( perhaps \) source absolute truth , n't know anyone treats anything valuable part living tradition roman catholic , believe close official position rc church \( perhaps rc would like comment \) particular practice refer usually explained terms social context time would think fact conservatives seem break give big song dance routine \( passages well \) n't directly applicable today would show claim bible actually practice two different things , mostly thread supposed arrogance christians , would suggest problem really , case , making claims bible claimants n't actually put practice step back name calling look people attempting say , see trying express unique place bible holds within christian faith people use words phrases word god , inerrant , , manufacturer 's handbook , rule faith practice church today describe bible , try hear saying look mere words use descriptions false others self contradictory , experience people generally pretty good picking intention speaker even speaker 's words variance intentions biblical example garden eden god asks \? adam explains naked afraid hid adam answered god 's words would said something like i'm tree problem seems arise christians insist words indeed accurate reflections people made determined effort work understanding place bible within faith rely phrases explanations others use hope helps bill rea \( \) w u w bill rea , computer services centre , e mail b rea csc canterbury ac nz university canterbury , cctr114 csc canterbury ac nz christchurch , new zealand phone \( 03 \) 642 331 fax \( 03 \) 642 999
oser fermi wustl edu \( scott oser \) subject really rise \? \? \? organization washington university astrophysics lines 36 article apr 10 05 33 59 1993 athos rutgers edu mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) writes two historic facts think important \( 1 \) jesus n't rise dead , must done something else equally impressive , order create observed amount impact \( 2 \) nobody ever displayed dead body jesus , even though jewish roman authorities would gained lot \( would discredited christians \) michael covington internet mcovingt ai uga edu artificial intelligence programs phone 706 542 0358 university georgia fax 706 542 0349 athens , georgia 30602 7415 u amateur radio n4tmi two simplest refutations \( 1 \) impact \? record impact comes new testament guarantee books least accurate , recorded impact actually happened find interesting contemporary source records eclipse , earthquake , temple curtain torn , etc earliest written claim jesus' resurrection pauline epistles , none written sooner 20 years supposed event \( 2 \) seems probable one displayed body jesus one knew personally believe likely explanation body stolen \( disciples , graverobbers \) n't bother point guards appears one gospel , seems like exactly sort thing early christians might make order counter grave robbing charge new testament record jews believed body stolen really guards , could effectively made claim , scott
jodfishe silver ucs indiana edu \( joseph dale fisher \) subject eternity hell \( hell \) organization indiana university lines 98 article apr 13 00 09 04 1993 athos rutgers edu dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu \( darius lecointe \) writes insert deletion unnecessary quote notion god takes sort pleasure punishing people \? purpose hell destroy devil angels first , god take sort pleasure punishing people mercy mercy compassion compassion \( ex 33 19 \) however , enjoyed punishing people sending hell , would send jesus seek save lost \( luke 19 10 \) \? earlier poster tried support eternal hell theory fact fallen angels destroyed , remember bible teaches god reserved day judgement judgement soon come let suggest maybe believe eternal hell theory provide biblical evidence find stay away human theories , take account references bible asked 2 peter 2 4 ff talks ungodly punished matthew 25 31 46 also clear righteous god 's eyes sent hell eternity 2 thessalonians 1 6 10 states cause trouble disciples punished everlasting destruction shut presence lord 2 thessalonians 2 9 12 talks refuse love truth condemned revelation 21 6 8 talks difference overcomes , listed verse 8 , fiery lake burning sulfur revelation 14 9 12 gives indication follow beast tormented burning sulfur rest day night psalm 9 17 wicked return grave , nations forget god think sufficient prove point darius joe fisher following i'm mostly playing devil 's advocate i'm advocating either position concern people understand 's possible see passages different ways 's possible see eternal destruction destruction rev often uses term second death obvious understanding would seem final extinction problem nt speaks eternal punishment second death e uses terms understood either way concern convince one view , help people understand 's wide enough variety images 's possible understand either way tom albrecht commented , primary point best keep people eternal fire , whatever details \( make things interesting , luke 20 35 implies damned n't get resurrected presumably stay dead yes i'm aware 's possible understand passage non literal way \) 2 peter 2 4 ff talking angels , talks holding hell final judgement n't eternal matthew 25 31 46 talks sending cursed eternal fire prepared devil angels fact fire eternal n't mean people last flames forever particularly interesting comment fire prepared devil angels rev 20 21 talk eternal fire well say beast false prophet tormented forever talking people thrown \( 20 13 14 \) , referred second death sounds like extinction eternal torment possible fire different effects supernatural entities devil , humans \? 2 thessalonians 1 6 10 similarly , everlasting destruction \? necessarily eternal torment one clearly understood either way , think 's least possible think everlasting used contrast kind destruction occur life final destruction occurs eternity 2 thessalonians 2 8 talks destruction revelation 21 6 8 see comment revelation 14 9 12 probably best quotes even , n't explicitly say people suffer forever says smoke \( presumably fire \) eternal , n't say people tormented forever psalm 9 17 n't see says anything relevant issue clh
morgan socs uts edu au subject prophetic warning new york city reply morgan socs uts edu au organization university technology sydney lines 49 article apr 9 01 10 38 1993 athos rutgers edu spot colorado edu \( thomas randall \) writes article apr 7 01 56 20 1993 athos rutgers edu reid cs uiuc edu \( jon reid \) writes deon strydom f7 z5 fidonet org \( deon strydom \) writes brings around asking open question bible closed book scripture \? okay us go around saying god told jesus told \? would n't imply god still pouring new revelation us \? know people feel okay , concept closed canon would certainly cast shadow contemporary prophets hand , open canon seems indicated sometimes let 's get back basics canon \( latin \) means rule say rule open rule made broken issue also measurement rule thus words spoken need compared rule canon added canon new revelation necessary \? topical , current , personal revelation 'd say necessary new revelation people times necessary scripture also seem confuse canon scripture scripture may speak open ie god speaking today would speak closed sense canon \( though concept canon later historically \) also interesting note called prophecies nothing new rather inspired translation scripture right call prophecy \? misleading \? would n't knowledge \? know , gift knowledge may exciting talk , n't call horse horse \? agree problem confusion prophecy meant encourage , correct overlap scripture prophecy meant bring form man live husband knowledge yet exact words scripture would expect difference motive means delivery reading scripture powerful force regards david david morgan university technology sydney morgan socs uts edu au po box 123 broadway nsw ph 61 2 330 15 73 broadway sydney fax 61 2 330 1807 paid good money get opinions get free v
ruthless panix com \( ruth \) subject losing temper christian trait organization panix public access unix , nyc lines 13 coming long line hot tempered people , know temper see one tell tale signs fruits give non christians away net replies , angry sarcastic net village laugh two professed , born christians verbally attack people might otherwise christianity originally joined discussions spiritually hungry instead answering questions sincerity , net warriors , flame queries n't need enemies already greatest harm say , foolish , foolish , foolish
rexlex fnal fnal gov subject certainty arrogance organization fnal ad net lines 70 article apr 13 00 08 33 1993 athos rutgers edu kilroy gboro rowan edu \( dr nancy 's sweetie \) writes way loop oh mon ! way certainly human reason certainly human experience \( yet ! \) paraphrase , particular absurd unless infinite reference point god 's revelation absolute thing logic comes fruition relativism core well founded belief , lies belief unfounded ludwig wittgenstein ah , clear ludwig russell ludwig 's fame often explained fact spawned one two significant movements contemporary philosophy revolve around \( \) philosophical investigation \( \) many witt 's comments implicit conclusions suggest ways going beyond explicit critique language offers according implicit suggestions witt 's thought , ordinary language invaluable resource , offering necessary framework conduct daily life however , though formal features remain , content always capable experience changes understanding , giving us clearer picture wish say witt 's account , dynamic language reason critique language must move talking limits language talking boundaries , boundary understood wall threshold 's comment witt 's sentences content often lies deep beneath surface language surface , witt talks position ordinary language necessity bringing accept without question time , faced witt 's creative uses language concern bringing changes traditional modes understanding philosophy , , speech , seeks effect unity rather assuming already functioning yes \? brilliant scientists unable offer foundation human speech long reject christianity ! well perfect exhibition nature impasse scientific ideal exhaustive logical analysis reality man perfect language exist fallen man , therefore must get relating truth via ordinary language john 's gospel dear christians simple conveyance god , yet full depth understanding viewed christ ot concept man , john looked outward indicator inside , consciousness christ must words truth truth scriptures plain truth knowable absolutes , knowable however , knowable reveals individual , n't shy , mysticism christianity paul rom 8 says 3 men world one spirit therefore know things spirit \( spirit truth \) one spirit capacity know truth , third one spirit , spirit ! know deep things god reveal us spirit deep things god absolute true thing true truth real , experienced verifiable disagree dr nancy 's sweetie 's conclusion taken fruition leads relativism leads would know words would answer , understand would say unto job rex suggested , easy reading silent francis schaeffer
gerhard ac \( gerhard \) subject phone number wycliffe translators uk organization technical university vienna , dept realtime systems , austria lines 15 sorry bothering request almost irrelevant anyone except could kind soul provide phone number wycliffe center horsley green high bucks hp 14 3 xl want surprise friend mine staying , n't number thanks lot advance gerhard obviously email response best people think requests like \? unless things different uk us , possible find calling call information cost posting fairly significant clh
18669 bach udel edu \( steven r hoskins \) subject questions new christian organization university delaware lines 40 hi , new newsgroup , also fairly new christianity raised spent better part life agnostic , recently developed firm conviction christian message correct accepted jesus life happy , realize ignorant much bible quite possibly christians hold true trying rectify \( reading bible course \) , would helpful also read good interpretation commentary bible relevant aspects christian faith one questions would like ask anyone recommend good reading list theological works intended lay person \? another question would like ask yet affiliated one congregation aside matters taste , criteria one use choosing church \? n't really know difference various protestant denominations thanks reading post sincerely , steve hoskins aside commentary , might also want consider introduction books intended use undergraduate bible courses give historical background , discussion literary styles , etc generally good reading typically recommend kee , young 's nt introduction also good one volume commentaries often background articles helpful probably best recommendation days would harper 's bible commentary \( think may couple books title fairly recent one , like 1990 , done cooperation society biblical criticism \) committed inerrancy , probably prefer something conservative n't read lot conservative books , commentary looked donald guthrie looked rather good nt introduction , 's also editor 's bible commentary clh
dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu \( darius lecointe \) subject sabbath admissions 5of5 organization florida state university lines 227 someone sent faq e mail post response i'm enforcing inclusion limits faq readers probably n't seen clh christ warns anyone breaks one least commandments teaches called least kingdom heaven \( matt 5 19 faq full error must respond hope whoever maintains remove partisan theology brothers sisters , new faith examining closely , 've noticed fourth commandment pretty specific keeping sabbath day states 7th day \( saturday \) sabbath christian religions keep \( atleast go church \) sunday 's \? frequently asked question every time arises , causes months debate let see answer directly basically 's law given moses part specific jews us n't jews , n't part covenant argument early christian history whether mosaic laws apply gentiles became christians see account debate acts 15 main question circumcision , keeping sabbath would part well apostles concluded need become jews order become christians , therefore rules circumcision apply us 1 law known man revealed mount sinai rom 4 15 notes law , transgression sin exist sinai \( eden \) , sabbath kept revealed sinai \( ex 16 \) 2 problem first covenant law , promise god wanted perform lives people , ignorance 400 years slavery , promised ever says new covenant based better promises \( heb 8 6 \) rather away law god promised put laws minds write hearts \( heb 8 10 \) 3 including sabbath acts 15 selective inclusion sabbath important jews circumcision attempt made away sabbath reaction would even strident recorded acts 15 confuse weekly sabbath ceremonial could occur time week part law \( ceremonial \) added transgression \( moral law \) \( gal 3 19 \) 4 israel stands god 's people time god gentiles 9 4 says adoption , glory , covenants , giving law , service god promises belong israelites explanation paul makes clear born israel enough israel , israel v 6 gal 3 19 says ye christ 's , ye abraham 's seed , heirs according promise christians abraham 's seed , jews , israelites physically , criterion , spiritually joint heirs jesus based promise god made people israelites christians agree ot laws apply us , part specific jews , also expect see similarity things god expected jews things expects us , 's god however several ways dealing days common approach separate ot commandments moral ceremonial ceremonial commandments apply jews part specific mosaic covenant like kosher laws circumcision moral laws apply everyone 10 commands part moral law , except commandment sabbath believe people take approach would say specific requirement worship sabbath part ceremonial law , general obligation worship regularly part general moral law thus christians free choose specific time worship people would probably agree wrong sabbath commandment ceremonial part law predates ceremonial laws \? free choose time worship even follow day worship origins pagan sun worship would rather give day god blessed , sanctified , hallowed exchange one church leaders agree biblical foundation \( see sabbath admissions soc religion christian bible study \) radical approach \( generally connected john calvin reformed tradition \) says law whole longer binding instead , entirely grace , behavior guided solely love portions ot law still useful guidance properly speaking legally binding us practice people take position believe safe leave christians without moral may longer law , sinners , 's safe us go situations principles guide us 're good self justification safe thus christians moral guidance , things like jesus' teachings , paul 's advice , etc may precisely law , serve much function , largely content , moral law previous analysis calvin would deny fixed legal responsibility worship specific day , would say given human weakness , discipline regular worship important care calvin theologian says guide god says law means keep law , section law trouble sabbath commandment , one god thought important enough say remember \? study word deeply note message longer condemnation law freed grace god cop pulls speeding , court ask mercy judge throw book gives grace , walk court saying go speeding , grace \? grace drive within speed limit paul adds rom 3 31 di make void law faith \? god forbid yea , establish law wherefore law holy , commandment holy , , good \( rom 7 12 \) analyses , specific day issue matter tradition , worship sunday memorial christ 's resurrection 's debate acts shows early christian worship common analysis shows jewish christians continuing go jewish services sabbath , specifically christian service necessarily held act 20 7 shows worship first day \( sunday \) , cor 16 2 also implies day groups continue believe christians worship sabbath \( saturday \) best known seventh day adventists jehovah 's witnesses argue act 20 7 regular worship service , special meeting see paul , cor 16 2 n't explicitly say 's regular worship service prefer implication fact \? careful study acts 20 shows meeting saturday night sunday morning paul go worship service , set long journey foot 16 way equate lay store go worship service 's clear issue contested one paul 's time see rom 14 5 paul 's advice careful judging issues like one person sees specific day mandated god , another observes specific day honor lord believes worship free restrictions also honor lord \( believe sabbath still mandated argue paul referring sabbath worship note however col 2 16 , says something similar explicitly mentions sabbath \) wrong sabbath days ceremonial law , sabbath day moral law differences among christians use word sabbath originally term referred 7th day , jewish day worship many christians use refer sunday , day christian worship largely apply 4th \( whatever couple different numbering schemes \) commandment reformed tradition distinguishes sabbath observance mandated jews , lord 's day free christian worship \( reference find nt rev 1 10 \) also differences laws regarding day many christians support blue laws , secular law church law , setting aside day causing people spend worship radical anti legal approach sees regulations return jewish sabbath , appropriate free christian worship lord 's day would prefer twist turn , relying different arguments conflict , rather obey simple request god loved enough die jesus died law could changed bother die order meet demands broken law need change law penalties law breaking means law immutable sin follow demands ceremonial laws always sin make false gods , violate god 's name , break sabbath , steal , kill , etc except disagree opinion weight placed next word god darius 's clear much needs said faq think paul 's comments one day another \( rom 14 \) probably needs said accept darius honor lord wish might equally accept esteem days alike similarly best honor lord however 'd like clear think 's unambiguous proof regular christian worship first day indicated , responses passages cited difficulty passages actually something else look like talking christian meetings , neither explicitly says gathered every sunday worship get various pieces information , nothing aimed answering question act 2 26 describes christians participating jewish temple worship christian communion services homes obviously temple worship sabbath acts 13 44 example christians participating unfortunately n't tell us day christians met houses acts 20 7 , despite confusion , described acts occuring sunday \( see reason impose modern definitions days start , biblical text clear meant \) wording implies normal meeting n't say gathered see paul , gathered breaking bread , paul talked upcoming travel 's explicit enough really convincing similarly 1 cor 16 2 says first day set aside money paul 's collection want believe gathered specially , homes , ca n't disprove , obvious time congregation take offering would normally gather worship , expected homes would reason mention specific day think obvious reading first day every week simply means every time gather worship think reason implications clear statements nt authors assumed readers knew christian worship clh
petch gvg47 gvg tek com \( chuck petch \) subject daily verse organization grass valley group , grass valley , ca lines 4 much better get wisdom gold , choose understanding rather silver ! proverbs 16 16
gt7122b prism gatech edu \( boundary \) subject really rise \? \? \? organization georgia institute technology lines 50 article apr 15 00 57 56 1993 athos rutgers edu reedr cgsvax claremont edu writes disagree claim jews evangelistic \( except narrow sense word \) jewish proselytism widespread numerous accounts jewish proselytism , new testament roman greek documents day sure jewish proselytism , would like relate account recent dinner jews months ago dinner instigated aunt , met visiting wife last october dear old aunt \( deceased \) proud jewish heritage , although especially devout parents murdered nazi concentration camps austria wwii jewish conversing politics , world affairs religion , remarked would good idea visit return atlanta within two days returning atlanta , called invite dinner husband went , knowing really expect , stimulating conversation fellowship got , however , rather unexpected thrust evening 's discussion condemn reagan bush policies prohibiting abortion counseling federally funded family planning clinics , prohibiting minorities welfare puerto rico , ban fetal tissue research , mexico city policy , denies u foreign aid programs overseas promote abortion crux position place blame problems , rampant domestic crime , african starvation , mothers , etc , christianity , rather fall adam , come talk every time tried bring subject judaism , would condemn jews jesus converting judaism , involves much study effort even raise prospect , try convert truth christ ! certainly jewish proselytism going , last november toured traditional jewish synagogue subjected 30 minute jesus christianity general realize two isolated incidents , best supervisor ever work jewish , experience , modern jew known proselytism boundary teneis que pensar que yo haya venido traer la paz la tierra venido traer la paz , sino la guerra \( mateo 10 34 , vulgata latina \)
jek cu nih gov subject hearing sinners lines 18 question , god hear prayers sinners \? need distinguish say never hears prayers sinned , make pointless prayers anyone born less 19 centuries ago consider prayers sinner , someone says , lord , want , n't expect change way life , different matter even , would venture say god never grants \( sends sun rain evil good \) however , someone know well praying god spirit , might responsibility say , remember , god 's help real , commands , james kiefer
jek cu nih gov subject john 3 16 paraphrased lines 25 end recent \( mon 19 apr 1993 \) post , alastair thomson offers following paraphrase john 3 16 god loved world much , gave us son , die place , may eternal life die place bothers , since inserts verse doctrine found original moreover , suspect poster intends affirm , merely substitution , forensic \( penal \) substitution maintain scriptures speaking atonement teach doctrine substitution , one forensic substitution interested pursuing matter invited send essays genesis , either 4 thru 7 \( question \) 1 7 \( lead \) n'th essay obtained sending listserv asuacad bitnet listserv asuvm inre asu edu message get ruff , james kiefer theologian worth salt put anything wants say form commentary book genesis walter kaufman
gt7122b prism gatech edu \( boundary \) subject certainty arrogance organization georgia institute technology lines 54 reply post kilroy gboro rowan edu \( aka nancy 's sweetheart \) \? human brains infested sin , trusted \? limited circumstances would beg differ properly formed conscience trusted virtually time sure , though , something materialistic human brain mass tissue possess anything trustworthy \? observation would probably valid discussing mind animal , human half animal , half spiritual \? moment stops speaking , people start interpreting , \? possibility error appears mean literally \? \? record elaborated words thinking \? tran con \? n't say interpret passage \? using brains think reason draw conclusions know \? brains perfect thinking often leads us wrong \( \? something us direct experience 8 \) hit purpose church necessity infallible interpreter divine revelation without church , christianity would nothing bunch little divisive sects \? unless infallible , things certain \? extent doctrines rely fallible human thinking , \? cannot certain argument regarding certainty observation conclusion necessarily substantiated experience reminds theoretical physicist said never certain sensor interferes field trying measure , experimental physicist reply although measurement never made absolute certainty , able determine certainty measurement made , knowledge often sufficient render measurement useful enough allow evidence true condition field observation therefore , although minds finite susceptible error , competence arriving inductive insights gives confidence ability distinguish true true , even areas subject experimental method \? darren f provine kilroy gboro rowan edu \? substantial number talk religion misc readers read \? wittgenstein , 60 postings would disappear \( understood \? wittgenstein , 98 would disappear \) \) michael l siemon quote seems little arrogant , n't think \? boundary teneis que pensar que yo haya venido traer la paz la tierra venido traer la paz , sino la guerra \( mateo 10 34 , vulgata latina \)
poram mlsma att att com subject wbt \( phone number wycliffe translators uk \) organization lines 36 article apr 17 01 11 19 1993 2268 geneva rutgers edu mprc troi cc rochester edu \( price \) writes i'm concerned recent posting wbt sil thought 'd pretty much denounced right wing organization involved ideological manipulation cultural interference , including vietnam south america commission mexican academia denounced 1979 covert political ideological institution used u govt instrument control , regulation , penetration , espionage repression met peter kingston \( wbt \) years back , struck dedicated christian whose main concern translation word god welfare people group serving wbt literature concerned mainly providing scripture minority languages sort criticism leveled organisation along lines ideological manipulation cultural interference probably education wbt stand alongside early christian missionaries parts africa , groups worked among native americans couple hundred years ago concern group may seen acceptable even praiseworthy readers soc religion christian 's important christians n't immediately accept every christian organization automatically reproach mp think need substantiate attacks legitimate criticism priorities spreading gospel among people barney resson many shall run fro , knowledge shall increase \( daniel \)
ee mu oz au \( \) subject agnostic 's question organization dept e e eng , u lines 79 article apr 17 01 11 16 1993 geneva rutgers edu jdt voodoo ca boeing com \( jim tomlinson \( jimt ii \) \) writes goodness within power us , complication one best friends become fundamentalist would normally non issue , hello firstly , exactly mean fundamentalist \? time assume mean friend believes bible god 's word mankind \? suspect happened 'll call born \? anyway , recent \? answer yes questions , quite understandable however , imo , rather give advice friend ! think 've something similar , one thing say basic problem trying communicate different talks things obvious obvious obvious secondly , may persuasive point view , sides fence mean turned fundamentalist , two agreeable see things side suddenly , new world reality suddenly opened , like discovery let 's say new continent , new planet , 's got tell seen something much wonderful , thinks much better got realise point view , means well , eventhough may end offending , worth risk nevertheless , really respect stand listen well moment , may difficult either excited feel urgent keep quiet , however , may realise 's really putting bible ' question , convince subject better left , preserve \( areas religious beliefs \) great friendship \? convince wo n't try \? thanks advice far , 've trying explain things side however , understand feel , n't christian good part life well quite turned christians fundamentalists really enthusiastic faith really scared , tell truth unfortunately , religious belief personal thing , agnosticism also personal thing since christian belief inevitably odds anything non christian \( religious otherwise \) , touchy matter like , take sides part make work matter , maybe part telling nicely able dig 's trying convince , 's beyond concern n't tell 's nonsense , reality would real insult 'll also careful insult stand like said , wish could give friend advice 'll admit similarly friends became christian ways , wish could done things little differently however , difficult excited away 've found ! , good know , crazy , n't really care time thought probably think 's crazy god real , real keep mind thinks convince since god real , n't see god ca n't real n't know helpful best anyhow quite challenge face way , personal conviction nobody beyond saving except one call devil hosts regards , dept ee engineering , university melbourne , victoria , australia email ee mu oz au ph 61 3 fax 61 3
fraseraj dcs glasgow ac uk \( andrew j fraser \) subject religious wars organization glasgow university computing science dept lines 33 n't know sort thing guys like discuss guess falls area question seems pop conversations non christians usually appears following sort unqualified statement well know religion caused wars anything else bothers cannot seem find satisfactory response religion peace love many religious wars \? personally view religion often used excuse instigate wars often disguise national ambitions would love hear anyone else say subject thanks advance andrew j fraser \( 're thinking terms history , crusades , northern ireland , yugoslavia \( \? \) come immediately mind \) northern ireland , yugoslavia \( \? name andrew james fraser e mail fraseraj dcs gla ac uk ese 3h student , university glasgow standard disclaimers i'm beginning suspect natural condition humans conflict perhaps ask whether religion philosophy involved wars since whether stopped clh
salaris niblick ecn purdue edu \( rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrabbits \) subject hell 2 black sabbath organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 25 article apr 20 03 02 07 1993 geneva rutgers edu , rexlex fnal fnal gov writes looking files weekend , ran across lyrics various rock groups content two black sabbath 's master reality 'll say much music '60 's early '70 's , least asked questions significance jethro another asked wrote things caused one wonder rex interesting posted lyrics , day thinking like lyrics , since whenever approached judgemental , , evangelical fundamentalists throw bible long hair , wear black leather jacket , listen black sabbath , something throw back usually drop come satanic lyrics goes show important evils world battle rock lyrics steven c salaris 're lot dangerous 2 live crew salaris wustl edu stupid use foul language ideas philosophy geoff tate queensryche
mprc troi cc rochester edu \( price \) subject phone number wycliffe translators uk organization university rochester rochester , new york lines 38 apr 20 03 02 03 1993 geneva rutgers edu mserv mozart cc iup edu \( mail server \) writes mark , mp i'm concerned recent posting wbt sil thought 'd pretty much denounced right wing organization involved ideological manipulation cultural interference good heavens , mean good friend wes collins , took wife two small children jungles , despite dangers primitive conditions armed guerillas , indigenous people groups could bible native languages young man led bible studies church , daily demonstrated declared deep abiding faith lord love mean really sneaky spy sorry find charges amusing , mark understand frustration though kind scary find assumptions challenged specific cultural interference refer includes linguistic manipulation , instance , spanish dictionary removed spanish words concepts threatening ruling ideology , e g , class , conquer , exploitation , repression , revolution , described words express ideological concepts examples like boss boss good treats us well pays us good wage students would say , ! tone implies unlikely believe indeed , \? interested enough research though , sound , references , david men founders empire \? wycliffe bible translators latin america en america latina los angeles times , dec 11 1977 latin america press , may 19 , 1983 washington times , june 22 , 1984 happy hunting mp
sfp lemur cit cornell edu \( sheila patterson \) subject losing temper christian trait organization cornell university cit lines 10 hooray ! always suspected human \) desire like christ often causes christians critical christians supposed grow , mature , endeavour christ like far far far perfect build body christ , n't tear , includes jesus loves way today , tomorrow always \( thank god ! \) sheila patterson
belville athena mit edu \( sharon belville \) subject god shaped hole \( accepting jeesus heart \) organization massachusetts institute technology lines 13 article apr 14 03 07 38 1993 5420 athos rutgers edu , johnsd2 rpi edu \( dan johnson \) writes empty spot god shaped hole hearts must something ease pain heard claim quite times anybody know first came god shaped hole business \? 've seen verse used back idea also set eternity hearts men \( ecclesiastes 3 11 \) sharon belville
petch gvg47 gvg tek com \( chuck petch \) subject daily verse organization grass valley group , grass valley , ca lines 4 whoever father heaven brother sister mother matthew 12 50
maridai comm mot com \( marida ignacio \) subject accepting jesus heart organization trunking fixed lines 34 whitsebd nextwork rose hulman edu \( bryan whitsell \) writes religion \( especially christianity \) nothing drug people use drugs escape reality christians inject jeezus live high logic christianity drug , die die , would reluctant drug alive enjoy pardon harshness follows , told cradle christian please take advantage jesus anybody sake \( selfish \) realization search true faith religion belonging in' fear hell vanity etc instead serving , must serving truth , things let us use jesus , religion , bible , anything anybody means escape getting ecstatic high god 's children must true authentic relationship father obedience , faith , hope love works \( last important \) beware , motives atheists ground us believe right call marida spreading gods words actions mother teresa
david \( david \) subject \? organization university centre lines 15 magazine \( name change recent years \) \? could someone post address \? \) avid david sheep hear voice , know , 4 follow give life eternal n shall never perish , one shall seize norway hand john 10 27 29 ` ' ' e mail david \( university centre , norway \)
tom milligan rainbow mentorg com subject anyone experiences organization mentor graphics corporation lines 6 curious anyone net land spent time houses throughout world experience like , affected , etc especially interesting would experiences original switzerland personal interactions francis schaeffer tom milligan
caralv caralv auto trol com \( carol alvin \) subject arrogance christians lines 88 vbv r2d2 eeap cwru edu \( virgilio \( dean \) b velasco jr \) writes article apr 13 00 08 35 1993 athos rutgers edu caralv caralv auto trol com \( carol alvin \) writes \( virgilio \( dean \) b velasco jr \) writes \( carol alvin \) writes truths also absolutes \? scripture truths \( therefore absolutes \) \? answer questions yes absolute something constant across time , culture , situations , etc true every instance possible agree definition \? yes , agree definition example women covering heads speaking hold said scripture true however , discerning exactly jesus , paul company trying say always easy n't believe paul trying say women behave way rather , trying say circumstances time , women speaking would best avoid cover heads maintaining proper witness toward others remember number relativistic statements derived absolutes instance , absolutely right christians strive peace however , rule trying maintain world peace resorting violence occasion \( yes , opinion \) agree truth scripture principles learned claiming truth absolute , though , seems imply literal reading bible absolute truth \( constant across time , culture , etc \) interpretation would necessary may lessons gleaned various passages different person person , n't mean one person right wrong believe god transcends simple minds , scripture may well exactly intent god knows , knows needs different anyone else 's claiming scripture absolute , least one person every disputed interpretation must wrong n't believe god rigid evangelicals clearly taking particular part scripture absolute truth \( plenty examples \) reconcile \? sure bible preaches absolute truths however , exactly truths sometimes matter confusion said , bible preach absolute truths sometimes fundamental principles crystal clear \( least evangelicals \) arrogance comes play since principles crystal clear evangelicals , maybe rest us take word \? maybe n't crystal clear fundamental principles either fundamental principles think 've established figuring biblical truth matter human interpretation therefore error prone yet still claim may crystal clear \? maybe certain segment christianity , 's difficult see claim something based interpretation absolute god revealed truths world , word utterly unavoidable , however , people come alternate interpretations practically anything misinterpreted , especially comes matters right wrong care deny \? think supports position much effectively \) , think position bible absolute truth , prone error interpretation , cannot reliably determine figured truth get right \? 's point spending time claiming defending absolute truth , never know truths , never \( least n't \) act upon \? practical difference make \? carol alvin caralv auto trol com
gt7122b prism gatech edu \( boundary \) subject atheist 's views christianity \( accepting jeesus heart \) organization georgia institute technology lines 52 article apr 20 03 03 35 1993 geneva rutgers edu jasons atlastele com \( jason smith \) writes article apr 19 05 13 48 1993 athos rutgers edu kempmp phoenix oulu fi \( petri pihko \) writes true science collection models telling us , , something happens cannot see good reason questions would bound natural things , assuming supernatural domain exists supernatural beings exist , appropriate ask ask exist beg disagree assertion science collection models scientific models game play , good assumptions measurements \( \) go example , remember nuclear winter big hype atmospheric science n't long sagan 's admonitions one boys adding another level reality model nuclear winter scenario erl boulder decided assume atmosphere like two dimensional thing , one dimensional thing also assumed rained winds blow real atmosphere returning georgia tech , showed transparency atmospheric cooling rates according year generated models correlation age \( meaning simplicity assumptions e , reality \) model degree cooling whereas sagan 's model showed approximate 40 degree cooling episode , next model sophistication showed half , got boy 's model , showed 1 2 degree drop war happened winter less 10 degree drop happened summer predicted would include presence oceans , chemistry , biosphere , indicators reality models , would probably see even less cooling thus nuclear winter reduced even less nuclear autumn , one might say , nuclear quote h , postulated models become accepted reality instead lattice assumptions dominates field , critical analysis argument encouraged skepticism model approach earth problems warranted many key parameters included statement surely applies equally well convincing observational evidence modeled results may one suggest model may describe reality thought 'd clear things really got hand boundary teneis que pensar que yo haya venido traer la paz la tierra venido traer la paz , sino la guerra \( mateo 10 34 , vulgata latina \)
jbuddenberg vax cns muskingum edu \( jimmy buddenberg \) subject revelations babylon \? organization muskingum college lines 34 hello bible study \( college \) revelations pretty good far getting sort reasonable interpretation chapters 17 18 talk woman beast fall babylon believe beast antichrist \( may differ seems obvious \) woman represents babylon stands rome roman catholic church views interpretation \? falling babylon chapter 18 babylon chapter 17 \? catholic church \? hate step toes thanks jimmy buddenberg internet jbuddenberg vax cns muskingum edu muskingum college reading imagery roman catholic church certainly common earlier protestant writers lot us find frankly embarassing , though readers certainly advocate position problem description makes look lot like political entity 's associated kings , controls world commerce , seated seven mountains \( 17 9 recall rome traditionally regarded built seven hills \) 's church , 's current roman catholic church , church taken anti christ merged state , turning something rather different presumably scenario true catholics among persecuted given overall impression satan pretending angel light , true church persecuted remnant , think consistent playing image would anti christ would church claims heir protestant catholic traditions , true spiritual descendants peter reformers equally persecuted clh
desiree bradley mindlink bc ca \( desiree bradley \) subject work god \? \? ! ! \) organization mind link ! british columbia , canada lines 33 local religion christian bbs group seems , i'm posting one sundays easter went church sermon based story book joshua \( one joshua sending spies land planning take \) particularly remember , heard part cbc radio documentary bosnia , \( woman sheltered spies \) said people melting fear heard cbc radio documentary knowing muslims bosnia losing war , felt uncomfortable , serbs driving non christians hand , ministers say bible opposed values held secular society anyhow members church involved country missionary work also , pastor talked spiritual warfare bringing christ people area next sunday , sermon joshua 6 \( israelites take jericho proceed massacre everybody except , sheltered spies \) reports bosnia mind , felt uncomfortable minister saying massacre \( one joshua \) right really bothered , going try taking christianity seriously , n't troubled reports ethnic cleansing bosnia certainly , sympathies n't considering bosnian muslims descendants christians , turkish rule , converted islam could serbs god 's work \? example god 's people setting bloody wars conquest always troubling discussions personally question whether right even time believe consider wars justified specifically commanded god somehow n't see serbs behaving like group led god matter clh
gt7122b prism gatech edu \( boundary \) subject arrogance christians organization georgia institute technology lines 55 dleonar andy bgsu edu \( pixie \) writes , pixie p sincerely believe god exists , follow blindly \? words question authority mean anything \? defy theist reply dear \( pixie \) take challenge reply , theist foundation faith god reason , without existence god could proven existence proven reason indisputable \( cf short treatise , traditional proofs existence god , summa \) , given god exists , existence proven reason , assert commands must followed blindly , although fallen condition must always measure doubt faith \? god first cause things , first mover matter , independent thing requires nothing else existence , measure perfect , essential gives order universe \( logos \) next assert god good , contrary god evil e , absence good , since god never contradict , promise savior early genesis 3 5 , god instructs human \( adam \) first responsible man 's alienation source good , man would required act restore friendship thus god became incarnate person messiah messiah claimed truth \( john 14 6 \) claim true , bound reason follow , truth incarnate next seem problem authority tried united states marine corps yet \? tell first hand excellent instructor authority yet privilege , reply authority truth incarnate may never questioned , thus must followed blindly one may deny truth example , proverbial apple fell isaac newton 's head , could denied happened , laws physics must obeyed whether human likes true therefore , authority truth may denied qed boundary teneis que pensar que yo haya venido traer la paz la tierra venido traer la paz , sino la guerra \( mateo 10 34 , vulgata latina \)
jcj tellabs com \( jcj \) subject two people married organization huh \? whuzzat \? lines 14 jek cu nih gov writes essential ingredient marriage mutual commitment two persons considered married bound mutual promises live together husband wife , forsaking others , till death part imply people take marriage vows n't sincere married \? jeff johnson jcj tellabs com
tedr athena cs uga edu \( ted kalivoda \) subject atheist 's views christianity \( accepting jeesus heart \) organization university georgia lines 32 article apr 19 05 13 48 1993 athos rutgers edu , kempmp phoenix oulu fi \( petri pihko \) wrote jason smith \( jasons atlastele com \) wrote another answer god source existence sounds much better , tempted ask god exist , \? god source existence , mean , terms human time , always existed source existence argument sounds like god exist , meta exists , meta existent perspective , created existence think actually , mere twist words always existing source existence beings problematic , put , source existence , including one 's , would mean god came nothing , concept alien christianity theism better understand classical concepts necessary contingent existence god exists necessarily , always god created contingent beings coherent solution existence , long concept god coherent best answer heard human reasoning incapable understanding questions atheist , accept answers , since methods good answer reason cannot means understand something likely null concept , something reality ted kalivoda
reid cs uiuc edu \( jon reid \) subject cell church discussion group organization university illinois , dept comp sci , urbana , il lines 15 beginning e mail discussion group cell churches follower jesus christ cell church , church cell church , interested learning cell churches , send e mail \( reserve right remove anybody group demonstrate spirit humility \) jon reid fool gives cannot keep reid cs uiuc edu gain cannot lose jim elliot
db7n andrew cmu edu \( andrew byler \) subject atheists hell organization freshman , civil engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 16 mark schnitzius writes literal interpreters bible problem view , since bible talks fires hell something 've always found confusing nerve die physical body , would flame hurt \? one wail teeth lungs teeth \? one feel physical pain body , , know doctrine resurrection body , people great judgement look resurrection dead , life world come nicene constantinopolitan creed body soul hell eventually andy byler
pucc princeton edu subject prayers advice requested family problem organization princeton university lines 70 brother alienated parents since shortly marriage insecure woman , twelve years ago 've kept things painfully polite , christmas card sort level time attempts see end , wife throwing screaming fit storming either imagined , \( mean , 'll happen end single restaurant meal \) seems , 've seen , live state quivering anxiety , hoping keep next storm breaking sacrificed meaningful contact us also friends outside interests , choice , need accept even deplore 's hard time time 've wanted drop pretense relationship cutting contact trying real painful relationship , talking honestly , 've always thought , dramatic \? know 'll get evasive find excuse get phone leave door open , case ever decides come back 's choice , allow us go superficial relationship , best could think , weekend , mother finally decided n't going pretend cut relations outcome phone conversation sister law screamed mother , blaming everything wrong lives , brother , , claimed situation beyond control , always expected mother make concessions mom said would , would quietly take abuse , terms relationship , n't want talk see hung \( never seem mother lose temper , think first time 's ever hung someone \) mom says feels 's divorced brother , 's relief ways break open done mixed feelings i'm proud mom sticking angry brother sister law hurting , jerks , life , hurts us warping children angry sister law hateful , angry brother coward little respect us 's willing throw us aside use energy trying appease , emotionally disturbed woman children , mess scared future , since marks time either things change improve break become self righteous bit proof ca n't get away treating us way , disgusted even beginning others' misery finally , mostly , sad , sad , sad , see parents hurt brother sister law trapped horrible , destructive situation ca n't see way ca n't bear take whatever paths see i'm frustrated n't know anything , nothing drives wall try pray , feelings rage , impotence , , situation , free desire something concrete \( desire something , define problem fix , one vices i'm terrible time internal mental chatter enough listen god \) thoughtful kind people net advice \? time reach brother \? let things \? conquer rage enough \? 's big question 've evading throughout long , long post ok , christian proponent faith , hope , charity , accept destruction relationship \? give brother , least accept powerless help wait see happens \? please answer e mail post thank julie \( pucc princeton edu \)
mussack austin ibm com \( christopher mussack \) subject christian 's need christianity lines 44 article apr 19 05 12 31 1993 athos rutgers edu , lmh juliet caltech edu \( henling , lawrence \) writes article apr 16 23 17 40 1993 1861 geneva rutgers edu , mussack austin ibm com writes example universe exist \? whether find pascal 's \( \? \) wager spend lives searching , merely wasted lives , meaningless anyway find view christianity quite sad idea life meaning importance creator seem like much basis belief please forgive inclusions suppose neccessary follow argument point life meaning importance try find meaning importance almost tautology \( hope i'm patronizing \) one term meaning creator , though obvious argument logic also appalling god must exist want \( 's like think , therefore , therefore god \) heard line reasoning wonder prevalent certainly modern society many people convinced life hopeless \( pollsters newscasts state \) , n't see good reason become religious want join cult , waco \? leaders give security blanket desire unfortunately term religious ambiguous context could say searching meaning life definition religious could say cult followers definition given search want meaning search truth \? far , understanding christianity congruent understanding truth many come conclusions worded ways make sense means imply understand everything chris mussack
reedr cgsvax claremont edu subject really rise \? \? \? organization claremont graduate school lines 34 article apr 19 05 11 36 1993 athos rutgers edu , ata hfsi hfsi com \( john ata \) writes think vastly oversimplifying things know early christians suffered witness christ example act 5 40 41 appears jewish rulers time particular aversion even hearing jesus 's name finally , first apostle 's death , james zebedee certainly rome 's hand first martyr stephen problem one believed resurrection , one must believe jesus truly son god stood preached ministry earth would extremely difficult people , especially plotted kill basic problem argument total complete reliance biblical text luke 's account highly suspect \( would refer commentary acts \) moreover luke 's account written least 90 years fact meantime everyone mentions died attempts find actual written sources behind text come section later portion acts firmly established moreover , pauls account events acts \( recorded galatians \) fail establish acts accounts need , therefore , reliable text , critically appreciated , documents death christians belief resurrection would suggest look greek roman historians think randy
reedr cgsvax claremont edu subject proof resurection organization claremont graduate school lines 30 article apr 20 03 01 50 1993 3776 geneva rutgers edu , jcj tellabs com \( jcj \) writes article apr 16 23 15 09 1993 geneva rutgers edu smayo world std com \( scott mayo \) writes think christianity goes flames resurrection ever disproved n't paul write resurrection true , biggest fools \? however , whether believe christ , teachings \( e g love \) , even followed secular level , could great deal alleviate problems see today world even rabid atheist could n't deny jeff johnson jcj tellabs com also cannot fail note intense suffering devastation wrecked world christians certain following christ polluted strict obedience command subdue earth , nazi 's justly punished jews killing christ \( well \) , innocent women burned alive accordance shall allow witch live , moslems killed crusades , god fearing men destroyed religious wars spain , france , england , etc christianity undoubtedly caused suffering needless loss life individuals whose following instructions therein , much grieve randy
bjorn b larsen delab sintef \( 369 \) subject question jesus alone , oneness reply bjorn b larsen delab sintef organization delab lines 31 dear fellow netters , time time term like \( something similar \) occurred posts group also know movement called something like alone ' believe trinity plans change , made aware least one person within church holds view trinity near future discuss item , feel shall ask , friends group , background information anybody tell basic reasons holding belief jesus \? vice versa foundations trinity \? shall appreciate quotes bible historical development thank , bjorn mail e mail bjorn b larsen bjorn b larsen delab sintef sintef delab n trondheim tel 47 7 norway fax 47 7
mussack austin ibm com \( christopher mussack \) subject sex education organization ibm austin lines 9 article apr 19 05 13 02 1993 athos rutgers edu , jkellett netcom com \( joe kellett \) writes question discussion \( say textbooks \) n't teach safe drug use kids , instead drug abstinence \? come n't pass bullet proof vests school promote safe gun usage \? chris mussack
reedr cgsvax claremont edu subject really rise \? \? \? organization claremont graduate school lines 58 article apr 19 05 10 33 1993 athos rutgers edu , gene gross lambada oit unc edu \( gene gross \) writes course knew n't forget jesus seen jews romans pilate fool n't need additional headaches fishermen stealing jesus' body make appear arisen since jesus buried grave man well know , say n't know buried begs question , problem individuals posting , take biblical account though sort historical modern sense would refer john dominic book cross spoke \( pub harper row , 1988 \) earliest texts make reference empty tomb empty tomb necessary claim resurrection modern evangelicals fundamentalists completely missed point resurrection work george 's work resurrection , immortality , eternal life judaism \( publ cambridge , univ press , 1972 \) helpful look rom 1 1 3 paul need empty tomb additionally 1 cor 15 , mention empty tomb raised \( note passive \) , appeared , ascension either resurrection could accomplished without ever disturbing bones grave whole idea empty tomb n't texts well fall jerusalem time , idea coming body would moreover mack argued \( , think \) empty tomb story first appears mark \( texts mention tomb \) , say think disciples stole body think moment would die maintain something knew deliberate lie ! \? , think disciples would ! \? , i'm talking dying something firmly believe truth , , lie many done , i'm talking dying , , stoning , crucifixion , etc , something know lie ! thus , position regards disciples stealing body seems rather lightweight graverobbers , risk severe penalties grave robbing body jesus \? n't buried great riches , , argument discounted leaves back square one happened body ! \? , let comment plausible non christian scenario , one typically suggested sceptics knowledgeable nt , resurrection subjective event , empty tomb stories result accounts growing telling clh quite right even idea subjective mystical event foundation resurrection narratives currently becoming untenable see b mack myth innocence randy
jono mac ak 24 rtsg mot com \( jon ogden \) subject latest branch davidians organization motorola development lines 23 article apr 20 03 02 42 1993 geneva rutgers edu , conditt tsd arlut utexas edu \( paul conditt \) wrote think 's really sad many people put faith mere man , even claim son god , prophet christ said return say , desert ' say , wilderness ' believe lightning flashes east west shall coming son man paraphrase think verse somewhere john jon sig file broken please try later
sun075 ! gerry palo uunet uu net \( gerry palo \) subject accepting jeesus heart lines 22 gsu0033 uxa ecn bgu edu \( eric molas \) writes religion \( especially christianity \) nothing drug certain truth statement would use word medicine instead drug regard condition human soul , christianity first foremost healing medicine also strengthens enables one , healing takes hold , grow new strength health live god created us people use drugs escape reality christ 's medicine , rightly allowed work , brings one nearer reality offers clarity understanding strength spirit meet healthy human way christians inject jesus live high \( small spelling correction added \) gerry palo \( 73237 2006 compuserve com \)
lfoard hopper virginia edu \( lawrence c foard \) subject assurance hell organization itc uva community access unix internet project lines 43 article apr 20 03 01 19 1993 geneva rutgers edu rexlex fnal fnal gov writes dreamed great judgment morning , trumpet blown dreamed sinners gathered judgment white throne oh weeping wailing lost told fate cried rock mountains prayed , prayers late soul put salvation , tonight 'll get saved time think religion , alas , found time die saw great white throne believed god bible would fearful making statement n't say judge judged measure \? , protest saying fear hell good motivation , yet jesus thought paul thought paul said , knowing therefore , terror lord , persuade men god must motivate fear god worthy worship god jesus spoke indeed exist would need hell convince people worship today , much evangelism nothing soft soap nothing evangelical n't tell people anymore , 's thing sin 's place hell myth hell made finally realize whole thing untrue n't hell would still believer today myth hell made realize god knowing good god claimed take word , even evidence existance \? join pythagorean reform church ! repent evil irrational numbers bean eating ways accept 10 heart ! call pythagorean reform church bbs 508 793 9568
parkin eng sun com \( michael parkin \) subject really rise \? \? \? reply parkin eng sun com organization sun microsystems inc , mountain view , ca lines 57 another issue importance crucification god tragic mistake believe tragic mistake god 's never accomplished disbelief man jesus came world build kingdom heaven earth desperately wanted jewish people accept messiah crucification god could jesus pray cup pass weakness never many men women given lives country noble causes jesus less knew crucification god god 's jewish people accept jesus messiah kingdom heaven established earth jesus 's head \( like jewish people expected \) happened 2000 years ago imagine kind world would live today would different world eactly god wanted men women age could saved following living messiah earth jesus could established sinless lineage would continued reign ascension spiritual world live god kingdom heaven earth wait christ 's return returns recognized find faith earth n't time return 's almost 2000 years mike article athos rutgers edu , oser fermi wustl edu \( scott oser \) writes article apr 10 05 33 59 1993 athos rutgers edu mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) writes two historic facts think important \( 1 \) jesus n't rise dead , must done something else equally impressive , order create observed amount impact \( 2 \) nobody ever displayed dead body jesus , even though jewish roman authorities would gained lot \( would discredited christians \) two simplest refutations \( 1 \) impact \? record impact comes new testament guarantee books least accurate , recorded impact actually happened find interesting contemporary source records eclipse , earthquake , temple curtain torn , etc earliest written claim jesus' resurrection pauline epistles , none written sooner 20 years supposed event \( 2 \) seems probable one displayed body jesus one knew personally believe likely explanation body stolen \( disciples , graverobbers \) n't bother point guards appears one gospel , seems like exactly sort thing early christians might make order counter grave robbing charge new testament record jews believed body stolen really guards , could effectively made claim , scott
jek cu nih gov subject etymology easter lines 53 src languages , feast resurrection lord known , , variation thereof , word comes hebrew pesach , meaning passover english , german , related languages , however , known easter , variation thereof , questions asked origin term one explanation given venerable bede de 1 5 , derives word name anglo saxon goddess spring called bede great scholar , natural take word lived 673 735 , augustine began preaching kent 597 use word easter describe feast would well established birth bede probably birth anyone might discussed subject seems likely derivation guess , based awareness anglo saxon goddess spring bearing name , resemblance words thus , said resemblance \( surely surprising spring name similar word dawn \) convincing , testimony \( rather conjecture \) bede make assuming bede right , would justify saying christian celebration \( , , going centuries name easter applied \) pagan roots would simply mean anglo , upon becoming christians beginning celebrate resurrection festival every spring , called name meant simply spring festival however , bede 's theory proposed j , die , fuer 5 \( vienna , 1959 \) 27 45 , offers following derivation among latin speaking christians , week beginning feast resurrection known \( white week \) , since newly baptized christians accustomed wear white baptismal throughout week sometimes week referred simply rendering german mistook plural , meaning dawn accordingly rendered , old high german dawn gave rise form easter english , james kiefer , i'm interested restarting discussions propriety celebrating easter however seems like contains enough interesting information people might like see clh
lmvec westminster ac uk \( william hargreaves \) subject help organization university westminster lines 25 hi everyone , i'm commited christian battling problem know romans talks saved faith deeds , yet hebrews james say faith without deeds useless , saying' fools , still think believing enough \? ' someone fully believing life totally lead god , according romans person still saved faith bit says god someone cold \( e n't know condemned \) lukewarm christian someone knows believes god n't make attempt live bible opinion saved faith alone \( \) taught romans , square mind teachings james conjunction lukewarm christian 'spat out' anyone help , really bothers christ , dallas cowboys world champions 1992 93
norris athena mit edu \( richard chonak \) subject weddings reply norris mit edu organization l'organisation , c'est moi lines 10 bill burns looking description catholic lutheran churches 'd recommend prof william 's book separated brethren 's overview common us denominations , intended catholic audience richard aquinas chonak , norris mit edu seeking job change sys mgr vax , sis , cobol programmer unix , c , c , x
jek cu nih gov subject paul weekly collections lines 15 mark gregory foster writes \( concerning 1 corinthians 16 2 \) idea introduced reason paul wanted corinthians lay aside money collection first day week received weekly wages ancient romans observe seven day week unless man working jewish employer , unlikely paid first day seven day week would jewish employer kept wages week end \( see lev 19 13 dt 24 15 \) , james kiefer
jek cu nih gov subject c prophet lines 21 rob butera asks book called lost years jesus , elizabeth clare prophet know book however , miss prophet leader group \( church universal triumphant \) derived group founded mr ballard began mission 1930 's \( writing memory may details straight old account , check library marcus bach \) eighteenth century appeared , tapped shoulder , offered cup cosmic essence major tenet movement mountains tibet monk descends lower altitudes every centuries preach , major religions founded monks typically , ballard family successors , prophet family \( related marriage , remember \) , base almost teachings messages allegedly received telepathy tibet surprised book mention scholarly basis , james kiefer
jek cu nih gov subject passion lines 14 mike rolfe writes know latin , one really beautiful way hear passion chanted three chants middle baritone range , jesus chants bass , others directly quoted handled high tenor done english \( music traditional latin \) many anglican parishes expect many rcc parishes would likewise st matthew passion st john passion j bach direct offshoots tradition , james kiefer
jek cu nih gov subject muslim sexism genesis 2 lines 33 according mdbs ms uky edu , muslims 1 6 income perhaps offshoots islam impose followers standard 1 40 one 's net worth , year writer also objects bible teaching woman created man , helper etc presumably reference genesis 2 suppose chapter written sexes reversed god creating woman , saying , good woman alone make help meet feminists would outraged clear implication would god started bottom worked , making first plants , fish birds , beasts , woman , finally masterpiece , male pig statement woman capable functioning , needs man open doors , would seen particularly gratuitous insult fact creation woman dust ground given briefly general , creation man given six times number words , would cited evidence author 's estimate relative importance sexes verdict would unequivocal self respecting woman accept book moral guide , anything sexist trash ! suggest moses , fearing reaction , altered original draft described creation adam first eve , appease miriam radical feminists day reason , however , work , james kiefer
jcj tellabs com \( jcj \) subject proof resurection organization huh \? whuzzat \? lines 22 article apr 21 03 26 18 1993 geneva rutgers edu reedr cgsvax claremont edu writes also cannot fail note intense suffering devastation wrecked world christians certain following christ strict obedience innocent women burned alive accordance shall allow witch live , moslems killed crusades , god fearing men destroyed religious wars spain , france , england , etc christianity undoubtedly caused suffering needless loss life individuals whose following instructions therein , much grieve agree gospels jesus advocate actions mention \? could n't find witch concordance something epistles witches \? \( i'm still working way gospels \) jj reference ex 22 18 's witch kj , rsv clh
cs89mcd brunel ac uk \( michael c davis \) subject help organization brunel university , uxbridge , uk lines 27 jon ogden \( jono mac ak 24 rtsg mot com \) wrote dead useless faith action behind actions prove faith show good example abraham \( referred james passage \) hebrews says abraham justified faith faith demonstrated works \( e , obeyed god told \) reading abraham 's genesis instructive man lack faith lot time \( e g lying sarah wife 2 occasions trying fulfil god 's promise god 's behalf \) yet seems god n't evaluate basis individual incidents abraham listed one hebrews 11 e , really came crunch , god declared abraham man faith believed god 's promises gives us confidence although real faith demonstrates works , god going judge us according success failure performing works ``not works righteousness done , according mercy saved us , washing , renewing holy spirit '' \( titus 3 5 \) amazing grace ! hallelujah ! michael davis \( cs89mcd brunel ac uk \)
jkjec westminster ac uk \( shazad barlas \) subject bible organization university westminster lines 53 hi i'm religious guy dont take kinda flame \( thanx advance \) want know many different versions bible \? version bible read front page says contains inaccurate data inconsistencies thanx advance shaz i'm sure quite mean many different versions primary distinction versions see today style translation 's pretty unusual see significant differences meaning differences underlying text 's printing , manuscripts copied hand slight differences resulted enough manuscripts around scholars pretty good job recreating original , uncertainties fortunately , generally level minor differences wording something like 3 4 places whole sentences involved , recent discoveries older manuscripts , n't think 's much cases far know , christians believe process copying manuscripts process translating free error also n't think 's enough uncertainty establishing text translating much practical effect whether bible contains inaccurate data hot topic debate many christians deny accept \( though would say inaccuracies involved details n't affect faith \) nothing multiple versions supposed found versions i'm surprised find reference title page though version talking \? 've referring major scholarly translations get referenced postings elsewhere certainly editions \( kind \) less widely accepted includes everything reconstructions combine parallel accounts single , editions omit material editor objects reason copyright bible long since expired , nothing stop people making editions whatever wierd thing want however editions widely used carefully prepared groups scholars variety backgrounds , lots could imagine one lesser known editions claiming fixed inaccurate data inconsistencies , 's edition 's widely used widely used ones leave text \( , almost 's alleged translations word two minimize inconsistencies translation exact science , always going differences opinion word best , i'm afraid \) clh
hall vice \( hal f lillywhite 627 59 360 lp \) subject help organization tektronix inc , beaverton , lines 73 article apr 21 03 26 51 1993 geneva rutgers edu lmvec westminster ac uk \( william hargreaves \) writes i'm commited christian battling problem know romans talks saved faith deeds , yet hebrews james say faith without deeds useless , saying' fools , still think believing enough \? ' actually n't think conflict really understand passages say first , faith \? study meaning greek hebrew words translated think come conclusion word means lot mere belief faith means trust action put belief action simply cannot qualify faith think james means says faith without works dead , show faith works remember james writing twelve tribes scattered abroad probably means writing would hear gospel much later would n't understand meaning original greek \( indeed suspect james writing us , today , among others intended reach \) paul , hand wrote mostly people roman empire generally understood meaning greek another key conflict look paul 's statements context think find paul faith works context comparing gospel law , meaning law moses great burden paul 's life apostle gentiles would go convert bunch people , would come along try convince also obey law moses \( cf acts chapter 15 \) context paul condemns idea saved works law , saying saved blood jesus faith believe better translation today would saved faithfulness think faithfulness today meaning closer original writers intended someone fully believing life totally lead god , according romans person still saved faith think misunderstand romans paul really saying god prefers faithful gentile keep kosher kosher jew fails stay faithful important matters following lord charity toward fellows bit says god someone cold \( e n't know condemned \) lukewarm christian someone knows believes god n't make attempt live bible sense faith described , cannot real faith lukewarm know god lukewarm \( \) , worse person never heard remember , jesus parable pearl great price \( mat 13 45 46 \) one treasure hidden field \( mat 13 44 \) indicates price kingdom god agree general , including fact force faithful however take far , end something paul definitely would intended faithful means following god things say saved faithful close saying saved commiting sins assume 's meant almost given finding specific verbal formula completely captures however think paul describing 'd call basic orientation , including aspects trust commitment jesus speaks rebirth , implies basic change may still things sinful , may fail show new life christ many situations christian better basic change orientation jesus calls born clh
alvin spot colorado edu \( kenneth alvin \) subject assurance hell organization university colorado , boulder lines 31 article apr 20 03 01 19 1993 geneva rutgers edu rexlex fnal fnal gov writes 2 \) n't accepted jesus savior , 're taking awful chance say jehovah witnesses \( longer frequent door \) , right wrong , lived good life die cease exist , right wrong , die suffer eternal damnation n't mean make fun point , like dirty harry said , 've got ask , 'do feel lucky \? ' well \? man 's got know limitations n't one whosoever wont 's ridiculous argument christian , might consider switching christianity another religion offered even frightening description another hell \? many christians think view strictly insurance policy \? many know believe message love compassion others faith based fear hell sounds like dysfunctional relationship god like child fear parent 's physical violence many religions concrete views heaven hell , various threats regarding go competition worst hell hardly idea loving neighbor rex comments , criticism welcome ken alvin ucsu colorado edu
drt athena mit edu \( david r tucker \) subject question jesus alone , oneness organization massachusetts institute technology lines 89 regarding jesus believers , moderator writes may misunderstanding terms agree quite likely , actually believe jesus originally context baptism folks believe baptism done formula mentioning jesus , rather father , son , holy spirit may doctrinal implications , far know mean folks deny existence divinity father i'm right one describe theology , fact think may several , including would called monophysite arian \( two rather different views \) , well beliefs probably consistent trinitarian standards , wo n't use trinitarian language misunderstand simply biblical clh biblical \? make end matthew \? \( 28 18 \) jesus came said , authority heaven earth given \( 19 \) go therefore make disciples nations , baptizing name father son holy spirit , \( 20 \) teaching obey everything commanded remember , always , end age ancient authorities add amen nrsv notes give sense texts contradict regarding baptism \? misunderstanding trinity likely explanation \? maybe simply misunderstand views \( anyone else forced read group good bible unabridged dictionary \? \? christianity really education \) david r tucker drt athena mit edu talked people rejected trinitarian language , speaking trinitarian theology , things like one three persons obviously three fold baptismal formula biblical , point \( normally use term three fold referring mat certainly consistent belief trinity , trinity doctrine whose full formulation occurred 4th 5th cent 's 's unlikely mat mind fully developed trinitarian doctrine indeed three fold baptismal formula used groups believe trinity \) disagreement baptismal formulae occurs passages acts 2 38 , command baptism name jesus \( couple passages acts well \) leaves us sort problem 're commanded mat baptize name father , son , holy spirit , acts baptize name jesus jesus groups baptize name jesus consider consistent mat 28 18 , say jesus name father , son , holy spirit i'm right one ask explain means simply say appear normal trinitarian theology \( also odd way dealing phrase name \) use three fold formula n't seem standard answer passages talking baptizing name jesus suspect common explanation say name need verbal formula say baptize name jesus may simply mean baptism jesus' authority 1st cent context , christian baptism baptism john jewish baptism course 's certain parallelism passages suggests could well say mat 28 18 n't require specific three fold formula used baptism , simply characterizes baptism done follow father , son , holy spirit one might well suspect early church , one baptismal formula used long consider following jesus following father , son , holy spirit , great damage would done difference mean think go back using formulae baptism one things almost christian groups recognize mutually , think something upset would interests gospel reinforced fact groups actually use name jesus seem mind difference doctrine 've said , i'm one explain doctrine clh
petch gvg47 gvg tek com \( chuck \) subject daily verse lines 6 lord 's servant must quarrel instead , must kind everyone , able teach , resentful oppose must gently instruct , hope god grant repentance leading knowledge truth , come senses escape trap devil , taken captive 2 24 26
max hilbert cyprs rain com \( max webb \) subject question bee bothering organization cypress semi , beaverton lines 47 article apr 14 03 07 55 1993 athos rutgers edu wquinnan sdcc13 ucsd edu \( malcusco \) writes article apr 11 01 02 39 1993 athos rutgers edu atterlep vela acs oakland edu \( cardinal ximenez \) writes problem science often allows us assume know best god endowed us ability produce life sexual relations , assume believe designing creator , observe ability procreate example , make availible everyone mean science ride god 's decision alterations , god wills us power decide able children \? observe ability modify fertility intelligence experiment , draw similar conclusions god designing us scientific inquiry use technology produces one ability obviously god , \? cannot draw solid line regarding would approve scientific study , would , say one experiments universe find secrets , one ask want knowledge want know truth , hold truth basic ethical values , correct moral judgement relies knowing truth , vice versa assert assent belief moral choice , compelled evidence inevitably cut limb sit upon evidence , conscious unconscious , follows corrupting intellect heart say person pray guidance trying mysteries universe , cease reason believe search god malcusco god , nothing fear truth imaginary gods followers afraid afraid max
marka hcx1 ssd csd harris com \( mark ashley \) subject two people married god 's eyes \? organization fl lines 22 would like get opinions exactly engaged couple become married god 's eyes \? i'm waiting rc speak ! 8 \) nobody , bibles hand give exact chapter verse time jesus told peter rock , said whatever hold true earth held true heaven , whatever n't hold true wo n't true heaven therefore , respect marriage , ceremony done rc priest big parties required priest , couple witnesses divorce allowed granted upon approval either bishop pope \( sure pope delegates function \) mark ashley disclaimer opinions harris' marka gcx1 ssd csd harris com lost los angelino
att com subject two people married god 's eyes \? organization lines 69 article apr 23 02 55 25 1993 geneva rutgers edu , po cwru edu \( richard j szanto \) writes previous article , randerso acad1 sahs uth tmc edu \( robert anderson \) says would like get opinions exactly engaged couple become married god 's eyes \? say two publically announced plans marry , made vows god , unswervingly committed one another \( realize subjective qualifier \) married joined god 's sight discussed girlfriend often consider married , though legally neither us people sexually , although sexual relations decided marry eventually financial distance reasons , legally married another year half , consider married life god 's eyes faith strong relationship , 4 years , full joy marry church first , however , must find church \( living new area marry , need find new church community \) anyway , feel two people commit marriage god , married bound commitment rick szanto rick nailed problem pretty well find scripture \( missed \? \) details married , make assumptions based principles scripture seems takes 3 parties make marriage husband , wife , god promise god together married , \( imo \) ceremonial part \? seems body christ brothers sisters ought involved accountability parts 's part concept hebrews forsaking assembling together custom need lone ranger christians lone ranger marriages smack self sufficiency n't see nt anyone see paul simon rock , island model anywhere christianity \( song lyrics show age \) \) \? , since marriage legal matter institution usa many places , laws specifically go clear teachings scripture , ought obey avoid even appearance evil \( thess 5 22 \) would imply least civil ceremony marriage , keep mind least conscience others back beginning married intended promise god \( imo \) think \? bobby ! states , kind commitment described richard szanto 's posting create common law marriage indeed posting might go long way towards establishing marriage exists , issue ever end court might want consult lawyer familiar common law marriage state clh
bluelobster cmu edu \( david hunt \) subject serbian genocide work god \? organization carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 24 23 apr 93 serbian genocide work god \? user james sledd ssdc sas writes governments united states europe moving end ethnic cleansing serbs targets muslims \? bingo 's oil 23 apr 93 serbian genocide work god \? user james sledd ssdc sas writes serbs work god \? hmm work god i'm doubly glad n't worship david hunt graduate slave mind towards mechanical engineering ideas opinions palestinian carnegie mellon university use golden rule v2 0 jewish homeland ! h e r e n g h e r e n g email bluelobster cmu edu working towards piled higher deeper great day scientists engineers r money need religions beg money pay priest
caralv caralv auto trol com \( carol alvin \) subject arrogance christians lines 44 \( dean write lots lots absolute truth arrogance \) vbv r2d2 eeap cwru edu \( virgilio \( dean \) b velasco jr \) writes strongly suspect reaching impasse , deign commenting much agree 'll probably never agree , i'm starting feel frustrated , i'm tired conversations husband dominated topic \( kidding , \) \) say , though , participating discussion good learning experience views topic evolved clarified , suspect may disagree much think admit i'm strongly prejudiced evangelical christianity , may always rational reactions grew ec , went ec college definitely wrong place , react strongly implication ec conservative christianity sort true christianity shudder remember condescending attitude christians n't adhere ec model come see real objection whole notion absolute truth actions seen lead bad experiences evangelical christians claiming know truth , judging others based belief answers knowing truth n't seem leave whole lot room others' opinions accept belief absolute truth long n't try use belief try force others comply , careful n't hurt others love neighbor seems go totally window one knows truth believes everyone living truth people convictions truth every bit strong sincere , based careful searching , prayer , relationship god n't dismiss god n't lead conclusions directed personally , dean carol alvin caralv auto trol com
futon webo dg com \( taber \) subject right messiahs lines 41 article geneva rutgers edu , desiree bradley mindlink bc ca \( desiree bradley \) writes must missed postings waco , david koresh , second coming one tell second coming real thing , unless person claiming obviously insane \? one rule thumb person making claim , wrong reading john 14 morning \( think right chapter , anyway close n't bible work check \) jesus talking disciples impending death says going away later said something along lines \( cannot provide exact quote citation \) anyway , understanding second coming outward event inward event , christ come live hearts live look person deceived seems jews looking messiah would political military leader n't recognize jesus came jesus tried show kingdom earth lot seen written second coming seems based expectation christ coming back finally taking world running way sounds lot like jews looking first coming n't like see reason second coming like either oh way , n't expect happen one second coming , lot little ones every time christ comes someones heart , christ come peace , william taber taber dg com opinions expressed data general corp futon webo dg com mine alone may westboro , mass change without notice dreams laid rest , get 's second best , 's hard get enough david
andy bgsu edu \( sherlette dixon \) subject jesus black \? organization bgsu lines 43 people post particular newsgroup either cowardly , arrogant , discuss issue since yet see discussion grace computer screen holds particular interest african american community , everyone something gain discussing knowledgable person know , christianity used country tighten spiritual , emotional , mental hold slavery placed minds , souls hearts african americans effectively done display white icons jesus slave churches encourage godly superiority n't enough provider , also god , looked upon unconditional love loyalty worshipped great pride culturally biblically accurate icons \? pictures statues black jesus found european countries , black madonna biblical physical descriptions jesus , hair compared wool , feet brass \? think area world biblical actions took place welcome intelligent commentary important topic need reply sherlette p expect least type response n't matter color skin actions mankind counts true questioning walked earth 3 decades human part existence saying n't matter member physically people still struggling mental , believe matters general attack members group seems unjustified discussion issue past ca n't discuss everything , fact specific thing n't discussed recently n't taken sign general cowardice , arrogance apathy past discussions one outraged suggestions jesus could black \( suggested scholars \) , concensus likely semitic probably know , tradition jesus art tends show one people thus would n't surprised find african art showing black , oriental art showing oriental good reasons relating christian devotion think way 's also good image challenged , think jesus member xxx , xxx group least respect clh
seanna bnr ca \( seanna \( \) watson \) subject accepting jeesus heart organization bell northern research , ottawa , canada lines 38 dan johnson asked evidence effective abuse recovery programs involve meeting people 's spiritual needs responded 12 step programs \( like alcoholics anonymous \) , one steps involves higher power aa 12 step abuse recovery programs acknowledged among effective dan johnson clarified asking please show effective substance recovery programs involve peoples' spiritual needs , rather merely attempting fill peoples' spiritual needs percieved people , , r c regulars , snoopy asking provide objective proof existence god never claimed able fact believe possible consider existence god premise assumption underlies philosophy life comes matter faith n't christian , would agnostic , sufficient subjective evidence justify sustain relationship god matter premises assumptions assume life , universe everything materialism ie spirituality exists assumption answers question apparent spiritual needs find assumption consistent subsequent ions find god fills spiritual needs cannot objectively prove difference apparent filling imagined spiritual needs real filling real spiritual needs prove another person spiritual needs seanna watson bell northern research , pray end living , \( seanna bnr ca \) ottawa , ontario , canada philosophies creeds , god find people busy opinion , opinions \? oh opinions planting trees sowing seeds , 're bnr 's , 're mine knew 'd left somewhere fred kaan
hudson athena cs uga edu \( paul hudson jr \) subject hell 2 black sabbath organization university georgia , athens lines 8 article apr 22 00 57 03 1993 geneva rutgers edu jprzybyl skidmore edu \( jennifer \) writes may wrong , n't jeff fenholt part black sabbath \? yes , also played jesus jesus christ superstar became christian played black sabbath right first got saved , left link hudson
athmail1 causeway qub ac uk subject could anyone answer question \? \? \? organization free university berlin , germany lines 41 cc athmail1 causeway qub ac uk 've heard said accounts christs life ministry gospels actually written many years event \( 40 years \) correct \? \? , big time delay \? \? know scripture inspired god , time writing suppose un important , still ca n't help curious ! ivan thomas barr contact athmail1 causeway qub ac uk gospels n't dated , guess luke 's prolog thing author describing process prolog sounds like luke next generation , investigating traditions passed verbally say things composition gospels debates reliable traditions certainly n't status scripture , yet scholars tend take seriously one suggests mark based peter 's sermons , written preserve peter died way die one tradition matthew suggests collection jesus words may made earlier current gospels ancient world , much common rely verbal transmission information think many people would preferred hear jesus directly someone known , maybe even someone studied directly person , rather book thus suspect gospels largely period people beginning die scholars generally think written material earlier , probably used sources existing gospels establishing dates complex technical business confess i'm sure much reliance 'd put methods used 's common think mark written first , around 64 ad , gospels written end century people vary decade one way clh
bassili cs arizona edu \( z bassili \) subject copt net newsletter 4 lines 18 let know fourth issue copt net newsletter issued highlights issue include 1 easter christ risen truly risen ! 2 holy family egypt \( part 1 \) 3 , friend poor \( part 4 \) 4 review coptic encyclopedia 5 new dictionary coptic language newsletter prepared members copt net , forum news , activities , services coptic orthodox churches coptic communities outside egypt coordinated exchanged want name included mailing list , questions please contact nabil ayoub ayoub wisc edu copt net editorial board
network com \( rob \) subject really rise \? \? \? reply network com organization network systems corporation lines 71 article 1373 geneva rutgers edu , parkin eng sun com \( michael parkin \) writes another issue importance crucification god tragic mistake believe tragic mistake god 's never accomplished disbelief man finished reading good book , god , helpful applying thought subject god broke god three distinct parts intentional , , ultimate \( \) also refuted last statement \( \) michael parkin quite nicely summarizing despite failures humankind , god 's ultimate never defeated god 's intentions may interfered , even temporarily defeated humankind , brought circumstance ultimate \( humankind \) never stopped time time , used cross best description process work points , paraphrased , 1 \) god 's intentional jesus , christ , live full life perform work living god 2 \) failures , sins , humankind frustrated god 's intent son 3 \) despite circumstance , god 's ultimate revealed cross , jesus willingly \( , lord , \) died redemption humankind cross utterly triumphant , overcoming even cruel circumstances world build kingdom heaven earth desperately wanted jewish people accept messiah crucification god could jesus pray cup pass weakness never many men women given lives country noble causes jesus less knew crucification god intentional god , thus enabling victory ultimate god 's jewish people accept jesus messiah kingdom heaven established earth jesus 's head right , intentional \( like jewish people expected \) happened 2000 years ago imagine kind world would live today would different world eactly god wanted men women age could saved following living messiah earth jesus could established sinless lineage would continued reign ascension spiritual world live god kingdom heaven earth wait christ 's return returns recognized find faith earth n't time return 's almost 2000 years know neither time place return thief night peace rob legal jumbo follows mail post reflects opinions poster \( author \) , manner reflects corporate policy , statement , opinion , expression network systems corporation
westminster ac uk \( james holland \) subject help organization university westminster lines 41 article apr 21 03 26 51 1993 geneva rutgers edu lmvec westminster ac uk \( william hargreaves \) writes hi everyone , i'm commited christian battling problem know romans talks saved faith deeds , yet hebrews james say faith without deeds useless , saying' fools , still think believing enough \? ' deleted opinion saved faith alone \( \) taught romans , square mind teachings james conjunction lukewarm christian 'spat out' anyone help , really bothers dear , 've never replied thing hope gets thru ok thoughts ! faith , accompanied action dead james 2 17 faith belief action say great never go swimming , really \? people believe \? likewise say i'm christian never talk god , really christian \? faith demonstrated action fact talk god proves faith satan believes god follow ! similar vein , recently challenged 3 6 v3 says know come know obey commands find verse quite encouraging could imply 'if come know , 'll obey cos lives within us cannot help obey says tend feel daily submit god keep changing us jesus fruit works automatically produced lives hope helps james holland \( westminster ac uk \)
dma org \( mark \) subject hell 2 black sabbath organization dayton microcomputer association dayton , ohio lines 10 may wrong , n't jeff fenholt part black sabbath \? 's major brother christ totally changed life around , wife go tours singing , witnessing , spreading gospel christ may wrong black sabbath , know similar band n't particular group yes , jeff also speaks listening bands like black sabbath says 're sorts satanic stuff n't know mark \( dma org \)
stoney oyster edu \( stanley \) subject going hell \? organization university maryland , college park lines 45 article apr 23 02 55 31 1993 3123 geneva rutgers edu tbrent ecn purdue edu \( timothy j brent \) writes stated consider atheist , definitely believe christian god recent discussion atheists hell , combined post another group \( effect 'you go hell' \) interested consensus god might judge men catholic , told jew , buddhist , etc might go heaven , obviously people believe even see atheists pagans \( assume would lumped category \) hellbound know believe god judge , ask , opinions excellent question timothy answers get satisfactory understand mind god attempt answer clearly god bible given us humans little intends judge mankind first test jesus christ son god death resurrection sufficent serve justice acts commit wrong eyes god , bible calls sin die end world already died complicated explain without cliche god must judge people works world however plus minus system god declared tolerate spiritual , thus based worthiness live wrong life good people , yes even christians going constantly sin god , christian thanks god christ given life sin 's penalty proscribed punishment sin death , proscribed punishment robbery time jail god cannot ask anything sins want condem bible says john 3 17 , god send son word condem might saved realize sinned , painful regularity , must approach god ask hold sin , right christ jews promised must believe messiah would come , dis come jesus muslims , fear given lie lies , satan need christ us n't right , view bible stand defense going hell \? answer say perhaps ask answer go hell \? step much stan stoney oyster edu opinions , may borrow p stay touch keep asking questions us god well , listens
mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) subject two people married god 's eyes \? organization ai programs , university georgia , athens lines 39 bit essence marriage two people 's commitment two people claim married hearts willing marriage recognized church state , 's prima evidence commitment n't really obvious situations christian marriage possible without civil church wedding 're stranded desert island , state forbids marriage unjust reason \( e g , laws marriage \) legal concept common law marriage meant ensure state recognize marriages start usual ceremony record keeping , i'm concerned people use married god 's eyes excuse living together without formal wedding one duty one 's marriage properly recorded witnessed also people wedding ceremony without making genuine commitment , therefore married god 's eyes right \? michael covington , associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu university georgia phone 706 542 0358 athens , georgia 30602 7415 u amateur radio n4tmi think last statement dangerous believe long someone formally undertaken responsibility marriage , moral obligation , even intention right people involved marriage covenant believed good faith marriage occurred , think obligations created course situations intent cause marriage exist classic example 's done part play exceptions , clear parties clh
weaver chdasic sps mot com \( dave weaver \) subject assurance hell lines 29 previous article , lfoard hopper virginia edu \( lawrence c foard \) writes know jesus talked hell heaven ! thank info respect man diminished promise never say wise loving man hard time understanding attitude gospels least bit accurate , little doubt jesus hell reality teacher , would wise loving thing people audience headed \? warn ! would , however , rather cruel sadistic believe place exists remain quiet scenario envision respect would justified jesus knew place hell , spoke anyway , scare people unless would accuse jesus , would encourage reconsider loving response perceive someone danger dave weaver fool gives weaver chdasic sps mot com cannot keep gain cannot lose jim elliot \( 1949 \)
revdak netcom com \( andrew kille \) subject serbian genocide work god \? organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 22 james sledd \( jsledd ssdc sas upenn edu \) wrote serbs work god \? hmm 've wondering anyone would ever ask question , governments united states europe moving end ethnic cleansing serbs targets muslims \? god use following accomplish tasks \? esp tasks \? james sledd cute sig i'm working suggesting god supports genocide \? perhaps germans punishing jews god 's behalf \? god works way evil , unworthy worship faith revdak netcom com
gt7122b prism gatech edu \( boundary , catechist \) subject atheists hell organization georgia institute technology lines 54 look resurrection dead , life world come nicene constantinopolitan creed always took statement mean resurrection soul , guess resurrection strictly mean raising physical body questions point next time go church , check better creed , , apostles' creed says resurrection body learned first go around 's body without little bit \? 1 always thought christians believe descent hell pretty much immediate , people burning hell right soul \( , way , n't believe \) exist time \? risk offending everybody , interject 13th century point view christ descended immediately bosom abraham set captives captive preached saved three days drawing back earth i'm expert part , matthew \( 27 52 53 \) says death jesus opened , bodies many saints fallen asleep raised coming forth resurrection , entered holy city appeared many \( nab \) regarding hell damned , speak , christ see \( ps 16 10 , acts 2 27 \) , although saw \( cf 45 2 \) concerning dead , n't want subject brethren anguish , direct contact e mail genuinely concerned 2 new body created atoms body made , built scratch \? new body might something like adam 's encounter one \( acts 7 52 , cr trans vulgate \) filled knowledge , absent , immortal would probably little glorified , 3 since physical body , assume need physical place exist hell \? center earth \? think could find dig \? would n't recommend 's really hot center earth ! know , normal gradient , regards boundary , catechist teneis que pensar que yo haya venido traer la paz la tierra venido traer la paz , sino la guerra \( mateo 10 34 , vulgata latina \)
phs431d vaxc cc monash edu au subject arrogance christians organization monash university melbourne australia lines 96 article apr 19 05 11 41 1993 athos rutgers edu , aa888 freenet carleton ca \( mark baker \) writes asking believe things visible n't know blindly i'm sure blindness comes deny reason , indeed insist upon , reason draws conclusions evidence decide advance reason act evidence five physical senses , cut reason possibility reaching conclusion outside physical sphere \( beyond rather provocative , inconclusive , conclusion physical sphere self explanatory \) saying rely feelings experiences \( since source information left us \) convince somebody feelings experiences correct ones ca n't show somebody visible measurable effects \? experiences say exists god says , leave us \? since going experiences , us correct within personal realities furthermore , trouble feelings experiences lead astray , tragic outcome waco illustrates sure many koresh 's followers really believed think agree misled finally , earth come conclusion physical sphere self explanatory rely five senses \? christians claim received different kind evidence , call faith , gift god , evidence evidence thing chooses reveal hide evidence senses cannot tell ting exists reasoning evidence senses wo n't help either christians reason evidence faith , claim evidence wholly consistent evidence senses , indeed , evidence senses part god 's revelation us must using definition evidence familiar , evidence something show others unambiguously saying true however , agree belief diety matter faith something share around others must experience independantly unfortunately , explained , puts belief matter experience impression christians monopoly reason , evidence faith far things go previous article , phs431d vaxc cc monash edu au \( \) says right science reason cannot prove anything however , use believe faith alone since use faith , one picture god \( e g hinduism \) less valid another \( e g christianity \) \? faith , said , opposed reason , simply new source evidence reason may operate clear human beings many systems explaining evidence physical senses , similarly many systems explaining evidence provided faith religious believers general , christians particular , use reason help sift evidence come clearer understanding evidence provided faith science claims , good reason , valid system explaining physical universe , christianity claims , also good reason , valid system , possessed best evidence , explaining gods revelations man risk repeating argument explained previously , trouble moslems , buddhists , jews , etc say claim , good reason , valid system , possessed best evidence , explaining gods revelations man \( buddhists read explaining non existence god \) must prove case , disprove \( alt messianic good place see people strong belief faiths good reasons \) doubt christians use reason , read newsgroup see rational debate aplenty know people use reason never claimed n't wish make sure arguments well founded goes without saying make blunder expect people correct gone process removing non essential contradictory bits , \( hopefully \) made progress towards truth mark baker task cut jungles , aa888 freenet carleton ca irrigate deserts c lewis lowe , department physics , monash university , melbourne , victoria , australia , 3168
csc albany edu \( steven h \) subject looking christians urbana , illinois distribution usa organization department geological sciences , suny albany lines 12 apologize post n't entirely appropriate newsgroup would like correspond christians attending university illinois urbana champaign transfering august complete ph thought would nice correspond people moved steven h department geological sciences non semper csc albany edu state university new york albany ea albnyvms bitnet albany , new york \( 518 \) 442
corp mot com \( gerald mcpherson \) subject going hell \? lines 42 apr 23 02 55 31 1993 3123 geneva rutgers edu tim asks stated consider atheist , definitely believe christian god recent discussion atheists hell , combined post another group \( effect 'you go hell' \) interested consensus god might judge men catholic , told jew , buddhist , etc might go heaven , obviously people believe even see atheists pagans \( assume would lumped category \) hellbound know believe god judge , ask , opinions probably simplistic , john 3 16 , god loved world gave son , whoever believes perish eternal life genesis 15 6 , \( \) believed lord reckoned righteousness n't find anywhere god restricts heaven particular ethnic groups religious denominations category humans like drop people require believe trust hebrews says god spoke old prophets \( old testament \) , last days spoken us son jesus christ learn pages new testament bible tells us need believe never heard , leave god 's capable care , make known desires one us act upon knowledge reject claims jesus , still go heaven , joke 's reject go hell , 's joke , final gerry opinions expressed necessarily employer
max hilbert cyprs rain com \( max webb \) subject atheist 's views christianity \( accepting jeesus heart \) organization cypress semi , beaverton lines 55 article apr 14 03 08 08 1993 athos rutgers edu jasons atlastele com \( jason smith \) writes one laws nature , specifying cause effect seems dictate \( least layman 's mind \) must causal event reasonable alternative exists big bang model temporal singularity point origin time prior cause occur want invent surrounding context , fine , one good prefer believe god exists , opposed singularity happened , giant iguanas , fling universes tongues like spit \? far tell , laws nature demand n't true something outside nature \( e , super natural \) believe genetic code entirely deciphered lifetimes , see man convert entirely inert material self sustaining , reproducing life , ever \( 've never much prophet , though ca n't even picture new york mind 8 \) n't believe technology would able produce necessary spark life , despite parts available opinion opinion , unfortunately wrong self assembling molecules already produced , entirely inert matter , spontaneously rapidly assembling form exposure ultraviolet light abiogenesis beginnings evolution , today \( saw nature , early last year \) biological dead , dead many , many years give life life self organization systems poised chaos order king returns , jason king repeatedly stated would back within lifetime present alive soon , soon said , many would messiahs nineteen ninety three years tell , tell , \? nowhere , q e max g webb watched closely discussion first cause , etc , long ago i'm replay also detailed discussion point max brings initial singularity geometry near big bang interesting time turns space , clh
u2i02 seq1 cc keele ac uk \( rj pomeroy \) subject losing temper christian trait lines 72 article apr 15 00 58 22 1993 athos rutgers edu , ruthless panix com \( ruth \) coming long line hot tempered people , know temper see one tell tale signs fruits give non christians away net replies , angry sarcastic hope suggesting merely person replies , angry sarcastic manner demonstrates 'non \? simple fact christian face planet \( know ! \) perfect known times fit temper , sulk , make less christian one points christian \( perceive \) become like christ statement inherently suggests already like christ jesus never lost temper jesus perfect i'm net village laugh two professed , born christians verbally attack people might otherwise christianity originally joined discussions spiritually hungry instead answering questions sincerity , net warriors , flame queries must understand christians often forget treat others role model christ would human , one , pretend , hope fellow men bear make mistakes surely much ask , make every effort bear n't need enemies already greatest harm n't know ! say , foolish , foolish , foolish say , human ! brethren , ms valid point christians ought heed warning article discredit saviour , way treat others strive towards goal set us lord , meantime , remember condemnation christ blow go easy forgive , father heaven ! remember something firmly cling one day , shall see face face , day , shall \( finally ! \) perfected look forward seeing rrrrr oo bbbbb r r oo oo b b r r oo oo b bb robert pomeroy r rr b b bbbbb u2i02 teach cs keele ac uk r r b b r r oo oo b bb 1993 r r oo oo b b r r oo bbbbb ps want draw anything attention , please mail direct , n't often read news pps offended anyone article , beg forgiveness , advance !
jono mac ak 24 rtsg mot com \( jon ogden \) subject hell 2 black sabbath organization motorola development lines 38 article apr 23 02 54 12 1993 geneva rutgers edu , salaris niblick ecn purdue edu \( rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrabbits \) wrote jeff fenholt claims black sabbath never ever musician band st louis several months back poster saw christian bookstore frequent really turned addressed homosexuals , prostitutes , drug addicts , alcoholics , something like well , showed long hair black leather jacket would felt little pre judged seen jeff fenholt speak n't find judgemental think wording add certainly inappropriate , think trying say would like program would put class , etc condescending believe jeff wearing black saw way , fenholt played jesus jesus christ superstar personally , i'm times , hard time secular metal groups promote free sex drugs \( opinion many promote \) n't thing found several good christian metal groups like jon jon ogden jono mac ak 24 rtsg mot com motorola cellular advanced products division voice 708 632 2521 data 708 632 6086 drew circle shut heretic , rebel , thing love wit win drew circle took
jono mac ak 24 rtsg mot com \( jon ogden \) subject losing temper christian trait organization motorola development lines 26 article apr 23 02 55 47 1993 geneva rutgers edu , jcj tellabs com \( jcj \) wrote 'd like remind people fig tree jesus driving money et al temple think two instances christ showing anger \( part human side \) yes , paul saying 26 ye angry , sin let sun go upon wrath \( ephesians 4 26 \) obviously , angry w sinning jon jon ogden jono mac ak 24 rtsg mot com motorola cellular advanced products division voice 708 632 2521 data 708 632 6086 drew circle shut heretic , rebel , thing love wit win drew circle took
djohnson cs ucsd edu \( darin johnson \) subject harrassed work , could use prayers organization cse dept , u c san diego lines 63 \( well , 'll email also , may apply people , 'll post also \) 've working company eight years various engineering jobs i'm female yesterday counted realized seven different occasions 've sexually harrassed company dreaded coming back work today boss comes ask kind question boss person bring problems seem take action , keep going higher higher sexual harrassment need tolerated , enormous emotional support discuss someone know trying something feel discuss boss , perhaps company personnel department work preserving privacy companies want deal problem constant anxiety seriously affect effectively employees jobs unclear letter done management remains ignorant employee problems strife even eight years \( 's miracle notice \) perhaps manager bring attention higher ups \? company indeed seem want ignore entire problem , may state agency willing fight \( check lawyer , women 's resource center , etc find \) may also want discuss , priest , husband , etc , someone know judgemental supportive , comforting , etc bring lot healing returned 11 25 , find ever single person already left lunch left 11 15 one could bothered call building , even though number posted happens lot people honest believe may seem due gross feelings going people offices tend insensitive working normally \( maybe 's hustle stress \) 've happen lot , often n't realize car broken , etc come back wonder n't want go \( would tend make stop angry ignored make laugh \) , went without boss , paying lunch \) reason hope good mr moderator allows latest indulgence well , ca n't turn computer support , would \? \( signs computer age \) closing , please n't let hateful actions single person harm still bully enjoy seeing hurt cause accept opinions worthless much wiser people hold great esteem darin johnson djohnson ucsd edu luxury ! day , make 5 bytes swap
gchin ssf eng sun com \( gary chin \) subject christians church members reply gchin ssf eng sun com organization sun microsystems , inc lines 13 years , met christians associated local church members local church issue may personal , important bible say encourage friends regard issue \? gary chin staff engineer sun microsystems mt view , ca gchin eng sun com
khan0095 nova gmi edu \( mohammad razi khan \) subject going hell \? organization gmi engineering management institute , flint , mi lines 32 tbrent ecn purdue edu \( timothy j brent \) writes stated consider atheist , believe existance one creator assume definitely believe christian god recent discussion atheists hell , combined post another group \( effect 'you go hell' \) interested consensus god might judge men catholic , told jew , buddhist , etc might go heaven , obviously people believe even see atheists pagans \( assume would lumped category \) hellbound know believe god judge , ask , opinions ok , god disclaimer , reserves right judge individual cases believe loving , also believe able serve justice n't worry jew , athiest going heaven hell , god judge \( although truly concerned could worry refuse believe satisfy gods decrees \) much keeping straight see something going wrong , discuss explore making summary judgement people enough free choose , n't force choices , inform 're choices god take care rest justice thanks , tim mohammad r khan khan0095 nova gmi edu july '93 , please send mail mkhan nyx cs du edu
khan0095 nova gmi edu \( mohammad razi khan \) subject bible unsuitable new christians organization gmi engineering management institute , flint , mi lines 19 news cbnewsk att com writes true also read 2 peter 3 16 peter warns scriptures often hard understand learned subject miracles fit \? new reader bible qu'ran time life tell would drifted faith books exposed joe moore mohammad r khan khan0095 nova gmi edu july '93 , please send mail mkhan nyx cs du edu
lmvec westminster ac uk \( william hargreaves \) subject help organization university westminster lines 26 i'm commited christian battling problem know romans talks saved faith deeds , yet hebrews james say faith without deeds useless , saying' fools , still think believing enough \? ' stuff deleted opinion saved faith alone \( \) taught romans , square mind teachings james conjunction lukewarm christian 'spat out' anyone help , really bothers received tons mail people replying article wrote , would like thank everyone took time give hand indeed helped affirmed alot theories held little unsure god bless dallas cowboys world champions 1992 93
scott uniwa uwa edu au \( scott \) subject work god \? \? ! ! \) organization university western australia lines 31 desiree bradley \( desiree bradley mindlink bc ca \) wrote next sunday , sermon joshua 6 \( israelites take jericho proceed massacre everybody except , sheltered spies \) reports bosnia mind , felt uncomfortable minister saying massacre \( one joshua \) right really bothered , going try taking christianity seriously , n't troubled reports ethnic cleansing bosnia certainly , sympathies n't considering bosnian muslims descendants christians , turkish rule , converted islam could serbs god 's work \? perhaps would useful ask whether ethnic cleansing could said loving killing act killing reflect attitude god , sends rain unjust \? , christians uncomfortable jesus gave followers law love follow exhibiting disciples known doctrinal \( political \) correctness standard , n't see christians moved serbs ancestors converted christianity islam seems christian troubled ethnic cleansing peace , scott scott arts uwa edu au
gchin ssf eng sun com \( gary chin \) subject national day prayer , 5 6 93 reply gchin ssf eng sun com organization sun microsystems , inc lines 20 annual time prayer organized focus family organization heard christian radio station local church , call may able give information many cities san francisco bay area local organizing time place meet pray san francisco , oakland , berkeley , san jose , people meeting 12 city 's city hall last year , attended mountain view city hall quiet meaningful time prayer gary chin staff engineer sun microsystems mt view , ca gchin eng sun com
mandtbacka finabo abo fi \( mats andtbacka \) subject hell 2 black sabbath organization unorganized usenet postings uninc lines 12 apr 22 00 57 03 1993 geneva rutgers edu jprzybyl skidmore edu writes may wrong , n't jeff fenholt part black sabbath \? 's major brother christ totally changed life around , different \? ozzy , ex singer main character black sabbath good ole days past , always devout catholic 've heard alt rock n roll metal newsgroups , an' figure folks oughta know disclaimer \? 's great young insane !
ide ! twelker uunet uu net \( steve twelker \) subject arrogance christians organization interactive development , sf lines 63 follow god blindly \? ever asked physically blind person follows seeing eye dog \? answer quite simple dog see , blind person cannot course , may ask , cannot trust senses , know whether see hear god truth lie need faith saved must force believe god knows truth , loves us enough share us , even defies think know would created us love us enough help us world \? seems learned differentiate illusion reality would n't need rely doctrines need updated experience christianity \( 25 years \) christians seek answers little direct experience spiritual matters , questions answered simple introspection people suspect cannot trust senses , take next step figure trust get esoteric , seems religions , christianity included , founded particularly intuitive people understand \( stuff deleted \) , one convert must choose follow god , ever follow christians wish share love received god reject , accept decision , although always keep offer open really want find believe believe , suggest try praying faith , reading bible , asking christians experiences personally original poster , pixie , never converted \? make sense \( , majority humanity matter \) would go hell eternity , many christians believe \? makes sense rather converted centuries old doctrine holds life , simply continue decide best may right christians relying clergy , reason hope 're protestants emphasize conversion , experience holy spirit , use bible intended make sure christians religious experience , basis judge claims clergy christians ca n't speak catholics orthodox , believe also attempt avoid members simply repeat told admit n't always successful certainly see young people join church age parents expect members seem quite able willing make judgements , commitment comes experience unfortunately , 's nature usenet doctrinal disagreements get emphasized , looks like spend time dealing doctrine 's certainly experience way christians really live clh
expert cc purdue edu \( scott kramer \) subject daily verse organization purdue university computing center lines 14 article apr 15 00 58 36 1993 athos rutgers edu petch gvg47 gvg tek com \( chuck petch \) writes much better get wisdom gold , choose understanding rather silver ! proverbs 16 16 ah \? \? \? amen one ! ! ! ! ! ! thanks chuck sharing , one serve two masters god money , god lord savior far valuable ever , scott
nichael bbn com \( nichael cramer \) subject questions new christian reply ncramer bbn com organization bbn , interzone office lines 49 ofm responds query reference works aside commentary , might also want consider introduction books intended use undergraduate bible courses give historical background , discussion literary styles , etc generally good reading typically recommend kee , young 's nt introduction two consider introduction ku translation nt text references slightly dated style somewhat dense , book contains wealth information 's intro also good 's somewhat modern ku 's quite densely packed also authors tend go books nt historical order composition gives useful perspective development nt also good one volume commentaries probably best recommendation days would harper 's bible commentary slight dissent think harper 's ok great one particular problem tends pretty bibliographic material feeling ok quick look ups , real useful study depth \( e g keep copy office work \) \( think may couple books title far know one book exact title \( james l mays , general editor , harper row , 1988 \) although think recall \( older \) series name harper commentaries also 's separate harper 's bible dictionary \( comments hc also apply \) favorite one volume commentary new jerome biblical commentary rather catholic focus somewhat biased towards nt \( reader decide whether pluses \) case scholarship large excellent note completely , updated version jerome biblical commentary , copies still found sale nichael
tsmith cs stanford edu \( todd michael smith \) subject god shaped hole \( accepting jeesus heart \) organization computer science department , stanford university lines 16 article apr 14 03 07 38 1993 5420 athos rutgers edu , johnsd2 rpi edu \( dan johnson \) writes empty spot god shaped hole hearts must something ease pain heard claim quite times anybody know first came god shaped hole business \? pascal , maybe descartes , first used figure speech \? seem vague recollections reading essays , certainly could n't say one sure todd smith tsmith cs stanford edu
j hale latrobe edu au subject sin block prayers \? organization vax cluster , computer centre , la trobe university lines 35 article apr 7 23 20 24 1993 athos rutgers edu , qucdn queensu ca writes heard interesting notion sin block prayers god , e god hear prayers confessed sins totally supportive confessing sins god , simply believe god shut us confess kind like idea suffering caused sin , , job reader realize , rest deleted father possibly hear words children course hears prayers whether sinner saint , questions real question asking sin block hearing answer \? answer question resounding yes paraphrase gospel many called choose listen prayer christ , james james hale lincoln school health sciences computing unit la trobe university , , australia james hale latrobe edu au grace god rests gently forgiving eyes , everything look speaks beholder see evil , nothing world fear , one different text , p 418
petch gvg47 gvg tek com \( chuck petch \) subject daily verse organization grass valley group , grass valley , ca lines 4 , love deeply , love covers multitude sins 4 8
phs431d vaxc cc monash edu au subject arrogance christians organization monash university melbourne australia lines 42 article apr 13 00 08 07 1993 athos rutgers edu , aa888 freenet carleton ca \( mark baker \) writes good reasonable statements authority deleted atheist position seems authorities reasonable assertion , leads practical difficulty reject authority hand , reject possibility every receiving information thus atheist position never possibly change non falsifiable therefore true athiest 's position proof existence god much people accept church , priests straight scriptures proof , satisfy atheists atheists believe authorities dogmatic claim , would trying prove 1 1 2 every time got dispute churches , priests , scriptures etc represent true authorities know truth demand rational proof god 's existence , deny god 's existence , since neither science , reason , , nature , prove anything asking us believe blindly \? trying deny part us makes us ask question god exist \? e self awareness reason use ability reason become ignorant animals earth god want us like \? right science reason cannot prove anything however , use believe faith alone since use faith , one picture god \( e g hinduism \) less valid another \( e g christianity \) \? mark baker task cut jungles , aa888 freenet carleton ca irrigate deserts c lewis lowe , department physics , monash university , melbourne , victoria , australia , 3168
miner kuhub cc ukans edu subject ancient books organization university kansas academic computing services lines 43 article apr 14 03 07 58 1993 athos rutgers edu , mayne ds3 scri fsu edu \( bill mayne \) writes article apr 13 00 09 02 1993 28445 athos rutgers edu miner kuhub cc ukans edu writes former atheists converted argument \? excellent question 'll anxious see cases doubt medieval period \( esp 10th cent aquinas flourished \) argument useful tool everyone knew rules today , ca n't count people knowing even basics logic seeing rhetoric , good argument often indistinguishable poor one last sentence ironic , since many readers soc religion christian seem embarrassed apologists josh mcdowell c lewis n't followed whatever discussion may people , feel c lewis excellent apologist see reason embarrassment think errors flawed arguments reason dismissing thinker , must dismiss nearly every thinker descartes kant philosophy course introduce weaknesses also expresses rather odd sense history makes think masses day , mostly illiterate , knew rhetoric logic people today \? writings period seem elevated consider cream crop , speak , could read write everyone medieval period knew rules matter uncritically accepting told said nothing masses however comparing masses day day really odd read i'm talking familiar experience arguing night winning logic evidence , discover opponent unaware , even intuitively , things like \( let alone \) \( assuming parties college graduates better \) , n't bother ken miner kuhub cc ukans edu nobody explain everything everybody opinions g k chesterton
liberty uc wlu edu \( scott dittman \) subject questions new christian organization washington lee university lines 21 steven r hoskins \( 18669 bach udel edu \) wrote hi , new newsgroup , also fairly new christianity realize ignorant much bible quite possibly christians hold true trying rectify \( reading bible course \) , would helpful also read good interpretation commentary bible relevant aspects christian faith one questions would like ask anyone recommend good reading list theological works intended lay person \? 'd recommend mcdowell 's evidence demands verdict books \( 3 think \) 's hard sayings paul also may done hard sayings jesus focus would new christian struggle faith encouraged historical evidence , especially one comes background emphasizes knowable faith scott dittman email wlu edu university registrar talk \( 703 \) 463 fax \( 703 \) 463 washington lee university snail mail lexington virginia
mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) subject two people married god 's eyes \? organization ai programs , university georgia , athens lines 17 article apr 14 03 07 21 1993 athos rutgers edu randerso acad1 sahs uth tmc edu \( robert anderson \) writes would like get opinions exactly engaged couple become married god 's eyes \? unwilling go public marriage ceremony , say willing actually done let 's distinguish real problems \( like stranded desert island \) excuses \( waiting 's brother come back army ceremony \) michael covington , associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu university georgia phone 706 542 0358 athens , georgia 30602 7415 u amateur radio n4tmi
smayo world std com \( scott mayo \) subject proof resurection organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 33 jsledd ssdc sas upenn edu \( james sledd \) writes finally proof resurrection christ , except spirits communion , father 's matter faith , belief without logical proof one largest stumbling blocks rational western man , included hope taken spirit intended rejection resurrection 's occurance beleive , wanted point weakness logical proofs terms used loaded way logical proof extremely messy thing apply real life think otherwise , try construct proof yesterday happened obviously anyone old enough reading remembers happened proof \? proof starts axioms goes somewhere need axioms talk logical proof say remember yesterday , take axiom anything clearly remember happened could whole thing talk proofs historical events , relax terms bit show evidences , proofs evidences resurrected jesus exist proofs think christianity goes flames resurrection ever disproved also think happen , evidence resurrection quite good things go entirely fair claim take resurrection faith reasons believe appeal mind ,
pwhite empros com \( peter white \) subject questions new christian lines 50 reply pwhite empros com article apr 15 00 58 29 1993 athos rutgers edu , 18669 bach udel edu \( steven r hoskins \) writes another question would like ask yet affiliated one congregation aside matters taste , criteria one use choosing church \? n't really know difference various protestant denominations america people tend think choosing church much like think choosing car country club mean culture tend towards satisfying wants rather considering things others mind making prayer initial primary part decision process people tend treat church would club something less liking , go another one think scripture presents idea god takes different perspective church choosing process seems 12 god n't subscribe idea us choosing church places us body wants us , think better question choose church figure god trying place person instrumental leading christ , church go logical first choice born family god people hop around church church often hop natural family family met lord \( speak \) may easily identifiable church try starters like go leave doorsteps see anyplace feels like home would n't expect god want place church difficulty fitting people , hand perfect churches attitude looking problems find make hand attitude love committment , spread wherever go general , think god try place church talks lord way come know expanding base peter white disclaimer none written necessarily reflects view company phil want know christ power 3 10 resurrection fellowship sharing niv sufferings , becoming like death
rexlex fnal fnal gov subject god love \? organization fnal ad net lines 70 article apr 13 00 08 10 1993 athos rutgers edu jayne mmalt guild org \( jayne kulikauskas \) writes uncomfortable tract general seems emphasis hell god deserves love worship like idea frightening people accepting christ yet , jayne , read gospels particular topics jesus spoke , hell figures large time certainly heaven paul , learn thess , taught new believers new churches eschatology hesitate teach hell damnation rev , chapter 20 11 15 specific cannot think word throne used 45 times rev unbelieving come receive assignment severity judgement , john 3 read already judged rom 3 speaks every mouth shut recourse , excuse defense see evangelism combining way living shows god 's love putting words explaining love preaching gospel without living gospel better noisy gong cymbal yes agree life often like swings extremes stopping moderation think seen extreme hell fire brimstone preacher , also seen extreme hell talked fear offending someones sensibilities forget founded word life ministries , remember telling story small town hardware store man got point telling n't believe satan hell believed everybody going heaven point man asked pray god would send children hell ! course man would n't point made many people say n't believe hell willing really place faith n't exist man , would prayed prayer hell n't exist would fear prayer answered yet , walk believe never sent 'd use different illustration however include watch , say basketball \( go bulls ! \) game , see blatant foul n't called , oi ! 's ref n't make call 's unfair life , righteousness demands payment surgeon takes knife hand cut cancer away , god cuts still old creation must preach gospel includes fact reject way truth life , broad way distruction 's question many christians afraid going hell \? many responding god 's love \? think would fall somewhere actually , repentance n't turning towards , also turning away ! , , jesus used ministry surely see also love , course , truth assuredly thought writing something topic , would say good reasons existence eternality 1 \) god light yes love , love boundary holiness 2 \) dignity man either man robot responsible creature responsible , also accountable 3 \) sin today poor , poor concept sin god 4 \) christ willing die go offer avenue whosoever rex
af664 yfn ysu edu \( frank decenso , jr \) subject major views trinity organization youngstown state youngstown free net lines 224 frank 's permission , added information \( one case changed order contributions \) order clarify historical relationship views comments based primarily william 's historical summary trinitarian controversy , fortress i'm going save faq clh major views trinity second century writers 2nd cent important , set much context later discussions justin martyr , , , , antioch known apologists theology often described logos theology based strongly wording john , took less two phase approach eternity , logos father , mind thought word became expressed god revealed history , ultimately jesus thus jesus' full distinction father became visible history , though logos present god eternity regards view containing many final orthodox position , form less sophisticated , technical language properly deal eternal plurality godhead irenaeus held views somewhat similar apologists however uncomfortable two stage approach still viewed god one , distinctions become fully visible except process self revelation \( economy \) distinctions present essential nature irenaeus emphasized holy spirit apologists views probably called economic trinitarianism , though term normally used \( \) refer later developments third century clh dynamic source adherents paul , , , modern perception god 's essence unity god denotes oneness nature oneness person son holy spirit therefore consubstantial father 's divine essence impersonal attributes divine came upon man jesus , god strict sense word perception god 's subsistence notion god impossibility , since perfect unity perfectly indivisible god apparent real , since christ event work holy spirit attest dynamic operation within god , union asignation deity eternality father unique originator universe eternal , self existent , without beginning end son virtuous \( finite \) man whose life god dynamically present unique way christ definitely deity though humanity holy spirit impersonal attribute godhead deity eternality ascribed holy spirit criticism \( \) reason witness biblical revelation concerning trinity categorically denies deity christ holy spirit , thereby undermining theological biblical doctrine salvation summary , probably best thought trinitarianism god one son holy spirit seen simply names man jesus grace god active church clh modalistic source adherents , , , , united pentecostals \( jesus \) perception god 's essence unity god ultra simplex qualitatively characterized essence one nature person essence may designated father , son , holy spirit different names identical unified , simplex god three names three modes god reveals perception god 's subsistence concept god erroneous real issue phenomenon god 's modalistic paradox subsisting three oneness refuted recognizing god three persons one person three different names corresponding roles following one another like parts drama asignation deity eternality father fully god fully eternal primal mode manifestation unique god son full deity eternality ascribed sense another mode one god identical essence god manifested temporal sequence specific role \( incarnation \) holy spirit eternal god tile designates phase one god , temporal sequence , manifested pursuant role sanctification criticism \( \) godhead compensate trinitarian deficiencies , view ideas clearly heretical concept successive manifestations godhead cannot account simultaneous appearances three persons christ 's baptism comments evidence beliefs actually two slightly different groups included followers , apparently extreme followed , attempted use features economic trinitarianism create sophisticated view unfortunately , information comes century later , seems confusion clh 've moved following description third century views originally appeared near end clh economic trinitarianism source , tertullian adherents various neo economic perception god 's essence godhead characterized father , son , holy spirit three manifestations one identical , indivisible substance perfect unity especially manifest deeds creation redemption perception god 's subsistence subsistence within godhead articulated means terms distinction distribution effectively notion division asignation deity eternality equal deity father , son , holy spirit clearly observation simultaneous operational features godhead co eternality , times , surface ambiguous view , seems logical implication criticism \( \) tentative ambiguous treatment aspect trinity note development apologists irenaeus , mentioned , visible primarily various ways god revealed history however say manifestation plurality somehow present godhead beginning tertullian talks father , son , holy spirit three one substance many people regard view essentially orthodox , less developed philosophical categories clh origen , developing approach started clement , attempted apply neo christian thought set many terms coming battle platonic fashion , sees son , absolute one god plurality creating beings son generated , eternally generated , relationship father son eternal cannot said \( phrase haunt discussion centuries \) son intrinsic concept god father son described separate , though may quite meaning separate subsistence contexts union one love action , reason think may used term \( substance \) holy spirit also active , personal substance , originated father son origen 's intent trinitarian , , pushes things direction fourth century clh often called clh source major adherents modern jehovah 's witnesses , several lesser known cults perception god 's essence inherent oneness god 's nature properly identifiable father son holy spirit entities share divine essence perception god 's subsistence essence god precludes concept divine subsistence godhead oneness self contradictory violates biblical principles god asignation deity eternality father one , god eternal without beginning son created therefore eternal though , divine essence holy spirit , father viewed influence , expression god deity ascribed criticism \( \) variance abundant scriptural testimony respecting deity christ holy spirit concept likewise asserts three essentially separate persons regard father , christ , holy spirit results totally confused note also versions view , son fully human either supernatural sinless distinguishes view clh orthodox trinitarianism source athanasius adherents basil , gregory , gregory , augustine , thomas aquinas , luther , calvin , contemporary orthodox christianity perception god 's essence god 's perfectly unified simplex one essence essence deity held common father , son , holy spirit three persons consubstantial , , co equal , co eternal perception god 's subsistence divine subsistence said occur three modes , godhead exists divided persons view identity nature cooperation function without denial distinctions persons godhead asignation deity eternality final , view sets forth father , son , holy spirit co equal co eternal godhead regard divine essence function criticism \( \) limitations inherent human language thought impossibility totally describing mystery three oneness least 4th cent , several different approaches , fit description , regarded orthodox , somewhat different detail nicea originally held respond thought carrying origen 's thought bit far , point making son separate entity general east tended take approach based origen 's , hard get acceptance nicea east final acceptance based work athanasius gregory gregory , among others starting three , show unity nature action one must think single god allowed council constantinople , 381 , get wide agreement idea three one clh adapted charts christian theology doctrine , h wayne house frank one wished contend , could answer one time thousand job 9 3
cs89mcd brunel ac uk \( michael c davis \) subject love europe organization brunel university , uxbridge , uk lines 4 readers r c going love europe congress germany july \? michael davis \( cs89mcd brunel ac uk \)
hedrick cs rutgers edu subject work god \? \? ! ! \) lines 59 desiree bradley \( desiree bradley mindlink bc ca \) asked us whether think serbs god 's work bosnia 've refrained posting , hope someone familiar ot would answer point feel say something many things posting bother know slightest suggestion nt christians use force propagate gospel , idea concerned death moslems violates heart gospel christ died break distinctions neither jew greek , neither slave free , neither male female moslems know , may preach , n't kill furthermore , attack states , religions christians attacked well one towns attack one places christians moslems living together peacefully precedents suggested ot fact two different things alluded first entry canaan parallel , would need god promised land prophet would need war holy war tight constraints behavior attacks violations likely cause israelites defeated rape would tolerated accounts joshua emphasize towns totally destroyed , note possible town make peace israelites , done even deception involved expected honor contrast , many violations agreement incident see evidence god granted bosnia serbs promised land , , behavior would disqualified holy war ot parallel later , israel defeated prophets saw judgement israel sins someone asks whether n't see judgement bosnians sins sounds like replay old claim n't doctors hospitals illness god 's judgement yes , even bad things may used god good includes actions bad people n't justify read prophets , find clear attacking israel , acting unintentional agents god intent attack god 's people , would judged fact actually carrying god 's plan n't excuse action furthermore , n't conclude attacks judgements god god explicitly interpreted case , prophets far know , send prophets bosnia find hard see good current fighting , sure god eventually make good come bad n't justify , wo n't save people judgement particularly concerned implications issue current tensions west moslem oriented nations need moslems conclude christians think 's ok kill moslems implications mid east , even relations american moslems , could quite serious
petch gvg47 gvg tek com \( chuck petch \) subject daily verse organization grass valley group , grass valley , ca lines 6 someone say , faith deeds show faith without deeds , show faith james 2 18
corp sgi com \( joel \) subject maybe \? \? \? \? \? organization silicon graphics , inc lines 17 hi christian friends , name joel , sister 's 25th birthday tomorrow used fire lord , somehow , reason , became cold n't want associate anymore old christian friends thought maybe could help sending postcard card little message encouragement hand written okay address ave san jose ca thank god bless ps jesus christ lord ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! qualms postings like might want engage bit conversation joel someone n't expect cards clh
rexlex fnal fnal gov subject hell 2 black sabbath organization fnal ad net lines 20 article apr 21 03 25 03 1993 geneva rutgers edu salaris niblick ecn purdue edu \( rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrabbits \) writes like lyrics , since whenever approached judgemental , , evangelical fundamentalists throw bible long hair , wear black leather jacket , listen black sabbath , something throw back goes show important evils world battle rock lyrics goes show evangelical fundamentalists ! wear black leather jacket , like classic rock , longer long locks however , rely upon bible basis christian ethics evangelical , rex
jono mac ak 24 rtsg mot com \( jon ogden \) subject help organization motorola development lines 87 i'm commited christian battling problem know romans talks saved faith deeds , yet hebrews james say faith without deeds useless , saying' fools , still think believing enough \? ' stuff deleted opinion saved faith alone \( \) taught romans , square mind teachings james conjunction lukewarm christian 'spat out' anyone help , really bothers , lot discussion going r c b make case though try help 8 grace ye saved faith gift god 9 works , lest man boast \( ephesians 2 8 9 \) yes , god 's grace faith saved saved however , 15 ye love , keep commandments \( john 14 15 \) keeping christ 's commandments work per se , demonstration love also , 6 spake also parable certain man fig tree planted came sought fruit , found none 7 said unto dresser , behold , three years come seeking fruit fig tree , find none cut ground \? 8 answering said unto , lord , let alone year also , till shall dig , 9 bear fruit , well , thou shalt cut \( luke 13 6 9 \) , 16 ye chosen , chosen , ordained , ye go bring forth fruit , fruit remain whatsoever ye shall ask father name , may give \( john 15 16 \) clear verses called bring forth fruit fruit well , paul speaks fruit spirit love , joy , peace , patience , etc things manifest actions carry person claims believe jesus christ , things christ commanded , dare say , really n't faith asking important , faith works , like asking blade pair scissors important like asking leg pants important good works come result faith faith , true faith christ requires commands parable speaks person bear fruit christs commands actions , n't actions produce fruit , shall like tree dead useless faith action behind actions prove faith show sit talk days fact much faith ability jump building hit ground words , sit tell day long faith ability fly really n't faith though unless willing jump roof take test words talk mean nothing could go give scriptures people want , sufficient hope helped jon sig file broken please try later
parkin eng sun com \( michael parkin \) subject right messiahs reply parkin eng sun com organization sun microsystems inc , mountain view , ca lines 71 article geneva rutgers edu , desiree bradley mindlink bc ca \( desiree bradley \) writes must missed postings waco , david koresh , second coming one tell second coming real thing , unless person claiming obviously insane \? first fruits messiah comes build kingdom heaven earth also comes first reveal root cause original sin \( fallen nature \) provide means cut connection original sin also wants create world peace based messiah 's teachings build foundation bible provide profound new insights nature god , fall man , purpose creation , god 's providence restoration also provide foundation unity world 's religions many christians expect jesus come literal clouds , may miss returns jewish people missed jesus 2000 years ago still waiting first coming jewish people age expected elijah come first jesus said john baptist elijah john baptist denied elijah \( reflect jesus \? \) later prison john even questioned jesus one come look another \( see book matthew \) i'm saying david koresh second coming christ could somebody breaks word second coming \? koresh promise would come compound allowed give radio broadcast n't still seems fool people david koresh n't even come close problem people like make difficult people believe trust real messiah show , knowledge bible , seems christians hard jews christ 's day cautious accepting somebody religious authorities n't accept messiah surprised nobody discussed difficulty wanting early recognize second coming , time , wanting believing anybody claims god good point perhaps important point christians recognize second coming \? messiah claim god sets messiah apart born without original sin born perfect achieves perfection period growth adam eve born sinless fell , tragedy meant would take god thousands years create kingdom heaven earth god originally intended god 's restoration providence still complete messiah true son god , one god , god 's representative earth , god one god mark 13 21 one says , 'look , christ ! ' 'look , ! ' believe mark 13 26 see son man coming clouds great power glory understanding jesus' answer , unlike first coming , veiled , second coming quite way , koresh 's public statement 's clear claiming christ else world claiming messiah maybe 's already mike
cnsvax uwec edu subject witches opinion organization university wisconsin eau claire lines 19 student uw eau claire paper witches wanted get point view use name unless specifically tell please answer question christian , offended witches \? feel pagan evil sense word \? time cooperation appreciated thanks , j survey conducted partial fulfillment course requirements engl 201 , taught karen welch university wisconsin eau claire course compliance course certification requirements university institutional review board protection human subjects compliance reasonable method choosing samples \? \? \? clh
rexlex fnal fnal gov subject assurance hell organization fnal ad net lines 142 article apr 21 03 26 39 1993 1370 geneva rutgers edu lfoard hopper virginia edu \( lawrence c foard \) writes many others mailed reply one letters seems atheist like doctrine hell ! 's nothing like preacher put fear ignorant man god n't created hell first place , 'd need die save us n't also bit say god died , fact , thing remotely possible infinite die \? using 20th century concepts 1st century writers course , , god could cease exist however , death ever means scriptures study word , see signifies separation death separation , reason agony cross first time eternity , one member godhead separated two met young lady beautiful model ever lived saint ever imagined become girlfriend several years however , drafted , separated distance form death later , decided could n't wait come home bid death separation made whole death separation eternal death eternal separation fellowship , chose send outer darkness , chose go know jesus talked hell heaven ! thank info respect man diminished promise never say wise loving man rebelled earthly father , found wisdom grown older especially children trying guide away hurt would enter life continued suicidal course love though interpreted harsh god warns impending danger , love choose let us please , end tell us rules , would harsh conscience , matter fallen , witnesses thing wrong cause fear jesus allegedly god , doubt could honestly feel man dealt may give light error understanding one must correct knowledge order correct faith faith knowledge inseparable jesus certainly felt life scripture say heb 4 15 high priest cannot sympathize weaknesses , one tempted things , yet without sin passage phil 2 states gave godhead attributes took upon humanity favorite meditation mine think phd thesis consciousness christ talked length great many people interesting study , including clh jesus , 2nd member trinity , actually suffered became part human race experienced grew knowledge chose grasp omniscience , chose taught understanding led spirit extent sometimes hard jesus man jesus god jn 8 women thrown , quite clear whole situation took surprise , aware event take place time living sequential history maybe time discuss , lengthy discussion one causes breakers brain pop often thanks info know , friends starting organization i'm going use info provided organization intro \) member club free thinker glorious ideal contrast , course , believe believer repository everything dogmatic , inhibited , reactionary repressive find stance amusing absurd liberal humanist wishes criticize christian buddhist marxist , right must pretend led solely rational doubt fact led faith must acknowledge rational doubt free thinker criticize christian , might equally rational doubt christian criticize humanist faith , faith cannot choose cast doubt faith pascal pointed sceptical arguments allow positive positive speak scepticism fact skeptics skeptical skepticism evidence doubt anything must believe something else ! person skeptical toward one faith even faiths , devoted another fact , measure poverty unaware define negative terms , hence term theist people claim otherwise argue complete skepticism campus ministry ran across times care remember however , disproved argument every thought , every word , every point logic used every moment shared communication speaks total skepticism insistence trying make sense eloquent testimony assumptions powerful though silent say , complete skepticism impossible limited skepticism arbitrary next time 're room skeptics , yell look , fly undone ! person chooses skeptical believes without skepticism stress obvious , point one know knows knows pure objectivism myth complete skepticism answer impasse lies 3rd way knowing , one based knowledge proceeds must proved , cover blown critical doubt , critical doubt depends idea human knowledge totally objective neutral words , another myth friend impossible doubt anything unless something doubt assumptions even upon basis assumptions silent partners thought silence must mistaken absence tell god condemns honest , unworthy worship better burn hell serve tyrant heaven course hardly original statement milton coined use millenia even used first movie , based faulty knowledge character god operating premise theology , revealed history , prophets , word , lastly , , thru son reject god 's annointed savior , reject correct understanding rex
hayesstw risc1 unisa ac za \( steve hayes \) subject arrogance christians organization university south africa lines 36 article apr 16 23 18 07 1993 1879 geneva rutgers edu phs431d vaxc cc monash edu au writes geologists wrong people warning non existent danger \? analogies push argument far \( sides \) melinda 's assume premises used set respective analogies true thus correct conclusion arise important point note different directions sides come christians believe know truth thus believe right \( duty \) tell truth christians get offended others believe \( self evidently \) truth non christians believe truth get offended \( christians \) claim know truth analogy depend true , question discussion truth arrogance similar analogy might medical doctor believes blood transfusion necessary save life child whose parents jehovah 's witnesses objections blood transfusion doctor 's efforts persuade agree blood transfusion could perceived arrogant precisely way christians could perceived arrogant truth otherwise belief blood transfusion necessary save life child irrelevant matters doctor believes true , could seen trying beliefs parents , could well perceived arrogance steve hayes , department missiology editorial department univ south africa , p box 392 , pretoria , 0001 south africa internet hayesstw risc1 unisa ac za fidonet 5 7101 20 steve hayes p5 f22 n7101 z5 fidonet org faq missiology study christian mission part faculty theology unisa
mserv mozart cc iup edu \( mail server \) subject src lines 39 dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu \( darius lecointe \) writes find interesting never answered questions posed goes make statements make shudder established two tiered god one set rules jews \( people \) another set saved gentiles \( people \) would god discriminate \? jew accepts jesus live gentile rules god one set rules people paul never law fact says repeatedly faith establishes rather annuls law paul 's point germane jews greeks law never used instrument salvation please combine ceremonial moral laws one matt 5 14 19 christ plainly says came say saying jews 's benefit christ must politician , speaking sides mouth paul said , learned christ forget theology , jesus says excuses hold court law earth , far less god 's judgement hall pardon little confused , beginning second paragraph , say , god one set rules people , yet end paragraph declare , please combine ceremonial moral laws one understand bible find declaration 2 laws \( ceremonial moral \) , also unclear whether think bad 2 sets laws first place 's bad 2 sets laws , ceremonial law different moral law \( vice versa \) \? would also interested comments passage cor 10 1 16 , paul teaches different rules covering head praying depending whether man woman think apostles prescribe different sets rules men women \? , jews gentiles \? also , paul , opposed circumcising gentiles , voluntarily timothy \? mark
pharvey quack kfu com \( paul harvey \) subject sabbath admissions 5of5 organization duck pond public unix 1 408 249 9630 , log 'guest' lines 86 article apr 20 03 02 26 1993 geneva rutgers edu clh writes christian pauline \? sure , \? , using paul correct words jesus \? doubt mind sin , least case jesus deal explicitly question whether law binding gentiles anyone dissolves even one smallest commands teaches others way , known lowest kingdom skies whereas anyone keeps commands teaches , known someone great kingdom skies 19 \( \) anyone one \? assume , since jesus n't say words apply jews , apply human beings , race sex \? assume , even though jesus mention name , still jesus talking directly \? 's cite evidence way jesus dealt centurion general jewish views , dependent largely studies pauline theology , one h j , one whose author ca n't come moment authors jews also , various christian non christian jews discussed issue newsgroups mat 5 19 clear law still valid say applies gentiles say applies \? anyone one \? yes , say specific requirement worship sabbath ten commandments ceremonial detail , 're looking obligations gentiles 8 11 \( jps \) remember sabbath day keep holy six days shall labor work , seventh day sabbath lord god shall work , son daughter , male female slave , cattle , stranger within settlements six days lord made heaven earth sea , , rested seventh day therefore lord blessed sabbath day hollowed note specific requirement worship , however one would bold call verses ceremonial detail similarly circumcision n't many christians still practice circumcision \? i'm sure quite else say subject , 's unfortunate jesus n't answer question directly 's unfortunate jesus n't use name directly , maybe jesus \? somebody nobody \? however know \( 1 \) 1st cent jewish approach , \( 2 \) jesus dealt least one gentile , \( 3 \) jesus' disciples dealt issue became acute \( i'm referring acts 15 paul \) given agreement , n't see 's big problem n't see problem , perhaps none paul closes romans 14 \( \) short , pursue ends peace building n't let dietary considerations undo work god everything may clean , 's evil person eats offensive spirit better eat meat drink wine whatever else brother offended faith , keep god person luck n't condemn samples hand , person doubts something eats anyway guilty , n't acting faith , failure act faith sin far know , christians \( except specific jewish christian groups , maybe small groups \) practice circumcision religious grounds countries done supposed health reasons , 've heard argued done biblical commandment clh
vbv nomad eeap cwru edu \( virgilio \( dean \) b velasco jr \) subject arrogance christians organization case western reserve univ cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 90 article apr 21 03 25 34 1993 1316 geneva rutgers edu caralv caralv auto trol com \( carol alvin \) writes vbv r2d2 eeap cwru edu \( virgilio \( dean \) b velasco jr \) writes hold said scripture true however , discerning exactly jesus , paul company trying say always easy n't believe paul trying say women behave way rather , trying say circumstances time , women speaking would best avoid cover heads maintaining proper witness toward others remember number relativistic statements derived absolutes instance , absolutely right christians strive peace however , rule trying maintain world peace resorting violence occasion \( yes , opinion \) agree truth scripture principles learned claiming truth absolute , though , seems imply literal reading bible absolute truth \( constant across time , culture , etc \) interpretation would necessary strongly disagree absolute truth would require interpretation 's truth may absolute , may obvious like many things , truth always subject misinterpretation strongly suspect reaching impasse , deign commenting much sure bible preaches absolute truths however , exactly truths sometimes matter confusion said , bible preach absolute truths sometimes fundamental principles crystal clear \( least evangelicals \) arrogance comes play since principles crystal clear evangelicals , maybe rest us take word \? maybe n't crystal clear fundamental principles either fundamental principles hold never said christians cannot arrogant indeed , many christians src stressed , trap christians must always wary however , mean believe absolutes established bible , necessarily arrogant christian believe word god absolute , expect immediately evident everyone , think position bible absolute truth , prone error interpretation , cannot reliably determine figured truth get right \? quite say according stance , cannot reliably determine true said say fallible human beings , cannot discern truth 100 certainty distinction subtle yet important scientist performs experiment , claim results reliable , without claiming absolutely mistake whatsoever could made words , admit could mistaken , without sacrificing convictions nobody establish absolute truth 100 certainty throughout centuries , philosophers argued know complete certainty cannot descartes made step right direction uttered , , ergo sum , yet advanced much beyond believe people aside exist \? believe computer terminal using exists \? , absolutely certain \? sure grand illusion \? course , assurance mean , however , practical purposes , certain exist christianity mature christians know deep convictions absolute morality , yet acknowledge non zero probability wrong , however , mean \( \) abandon absolutes 's point spending time claiming defending absolute truth , never know truths , never \( least n't \) act upon \? practical difference make \? said , never absolutely certain correct mean cannot certain enough , light evidence , render doubts unreasonable virgilio dean velasco jr , department electrical eng'g applied physics cwru graduate student , roboticist training q wannabee bullwinkle , man 's intimidating referee ! boss well n't look like one ! jewish carpenter
mussack austin ibm com \( christopher mussack \) subject questioning authority lines 60 despite trendy , liberal , feminist tendencies fact basically agree saying rebut \( dr nancy 's sweetie \) writes \( chris mussack \) writes people insist question authority \? authorities sometimes tell people evil things people follow orders tortured killed others large numbers , protest innocence afterwards basic question know supposed \? true every situation comes people think merely follow impulses claim dangerous following authority could site sexually transmitted diseases , drug abuse , manner criminal activity , savings loan scandal , car accidents , eggs thrown house , examples people following authority could easily argue evil examples gave problem leader following authority wanted course , top chain \? therein lies search authority starts telling things , ask questions except situations pressing need \( said shut hatch submarine filling water ! \) , reasonable authority able give least justification understand n't think 's simple claiming pressing need ambiguous recycle \? realize four kids , despite course , tiring constant lack understanding tremendous knowledge wish sure listen authority answers ahh ! ironic ending irony implying initial retort bumper sticker cliche question authority questioning authority person telling question authority seems certain segment society finds meaning different , rebelling , forsaking everything sake freedom question integrity another freedom comes task correctly different people different levels development different areas part challenge life find right authorities follow , ca n't know everything everything often learning new skill subject follow teacher , perhaps blindly learned enough ask appropriate questions question , developed skills enough challenge , know get stages \? told question authority , perhaps n't chris mussack \( good comedian never explain jokes \)
jodfishe silver ucs indiana edu \( joseph dale fisher \) subject arrogance christians organization indiana university lines 13 've read carol 's response get 've got verses subject interpretation say say 2 peter 1 20 21 , 2 timothy 3 16 17 , galatians 1 11 12 also , based fact jesus word incarnate judges people follow \( see acts 17 29 31 john 5 21 27 \) reject jesus' teachings judged words spoke \( see john 12 47 50 \) , jesus' words true need interpretation , would god judge based word interpreted joe fisher
jodfishe silver ucs indiana edu \( joseph dale fisher \) subject cell church discussion group organization indiana university lines 7 article apr 21 03 25 58 1993 geneva rutgers edu reid cs uiuc edu \( jon reid \) writes beginning e mail discussion group cell churches please , define cell church missed somewhere past brought joe fisher
bp com subject religious wars organization bp research , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 30 article apr 21 03 24 44 1993 geneva rutgers edu , fraseraj dcs glasgow ac uk \( andrew j fraser \) writes well know religion caused wars anything else bothers cannot seem find satisfactory response religion peace love many religious wars \? course question asked group dealing economics , answer would cause war economic observations past 30 years \( withstanding little history reading beside \) religious differences play part many conflicts , \( unfortunately \) race , economics items identify one group men different another want couch cause conflict christian terms , would put christ died sins , yet sinners individuals assume natures , us even come close realize many ways trite answer , guess way rationalizing man 's constant \( seems \) conflict jerry kemp \( somtime consultant \) internet bp com kemp ja dnet bp com
jodfishe silver ucs indiana edu \( joseph dale fisher \) subject prayers advice requested family problem organization indiana university lines 34 julie , really trying situation described brother living someone like things almost bad \( although left considerably shorter amount time due problems relationship \) anyway , best thing would get everyone room together \( optimally room nothing breakable \) , lock door behind , throw key underneath door \( far longest hand reach would like get conclusion , would imagine \) , hash things likely , screaming , crying , possibly hitting \( unless course someone decided bring rope tie people \) best strategies keeping things would include individual statements \( ie , feel relationship hurting everyone involved really n't understand 're coming \) reinforce statements paraphrasing , etc \( ie , think \? well , let say reason \) n't accuse \( fault happened ! \) find common ground something \( really functional time \) guaranteed , situation like , going \( hashing topics assumed resolved , truly someone feels someone else blame \) however , kept minimum simply ask forgiveness apologize situation without holding smoldering relationship really work 's matter keeping things smooth even 's sort like making peace treaty warring factions ca n't give one side everything must compromise breaks taken , communication everyone involved must continue relationships survive joe fisher
owlnet rice edu \( robert john butera \) subject c prophet organization rice university lines 33 article apr 21 03 27 03 1993 geneva rutgers edu jek cu nih gov writes rob butera asks book called lost years jesus , elizabeth clare prophet marriage , remember \) , base almost teachings messages allegedly received telepathy tibet surprised book mention scholarly basis actually , little book first looking titles books , would personally consider engaged bizarre form christian like mysticism heavily influenced eastern \( great titles like astrology 4 \) however , chapter one , 's nothing original , biased , even new book basically collection previously published works claim exist buddhist hindu stories christ visited india china \( known issa \) period late teens age 30 conclusion book actually lets come view presenting summary various published works letters , could verify independently includes refutations works well therefore , even think theologically warped , book nice reference summary interested rob butera ece grad student sick music makes money today rice university houston , tx nietzsche , 1888
kempmp phoenix oulu fi \( petri pihko \) subject atheist 's views christianity \( accepting jeesus heart \) organization university oulu , finland lines 183 first , thank collectively people given good answers questions follow jason smith 's posting , address issues caused misunderstanding jason smith \( jasons atlastele com \) wrote article apr 19 05 13 48 1993 athos rutgers edu kempmp phoenix oulu fi \( petri pihko \) writes also concede doubly remiss , asserted reasonable alternative exists , entirely subjective statement part \( one could invalidated , given time discovery scientist \) also understand proving theory necessarily specify happened , proposes likely description phenomena question mistaken understanding \? yes , degree excellent discussion sci skeptic nature scientific work two weeks ago , hope escape notice correct word way sure models theories absolutely correct theories backed evidence , proved theory mathematical sense however , theories mere descriptions phenomena extremely important test whether theories predict something new yet observed successful theories science come passed test , including big bang theory cosmic evolution , theory natural selection etc mean must correct , mere data claim must answer universe \( spacetime \) emerge nothing , science good candidates answer require something christians readily admit well , yes , want believe science requires take good look theory evidence , see theory made successful predictions , use reason punished fact several candidates none conclusive conclusive evidence , left faith puzzles need faith anything \? fellow atheists would call weak atheist someone unable believe , ie , fails entertain belief god yes , know one ca n't believe without god 's help luther makes quite clear letter i'm afraid change situation couple paragraphs deleted summary ask universe exist think question actually split two parts , namely 1 \) existence \? anything exists \? 2 \) universe emerge nothing \? \( deletions \) question anything exists countered demanding answer question nothing nothingness , non existence actually , questions turn devoid meaning things exist , things n't exist n't exist tautology best carefully examine original question , counter question first asks , second request definition , , although look like one true dichotomy , either something exists , nothing exists nothing exists , nobody would ask something exists , possible ask , actually existing could give answer imagine , moment , non existence could also ask nothing exists \? equivalent counter question , nothing exists nothingness , anything exists equivalent something exists meant tautology , apologies poor wording previous post might add , worldview things exist , things n't n't grounded realm non falsifiable , theist 's belief god based assumption reason , something ultimately \( un \) supportable position reason foundation exists soil one claims reason indeed think probably reason , existence , general , reasons stated however , still leave open question , , theistic explanations come science cannot give reasons particular human 's existence come either , therefore , reason deep philosophical question true , \? also , god deterministic \? tend think question meaning case reason , 've yet failed see would perspective , looks like exist truly random reasons rolled two dice get 6 1 \? believe better reason existence \? former satisfactory answer , done , satisfied , need doctor latter , search beginning yes , satisfied reason , find something better 15 years christianity help respect , admit , patient another answer god source existence sounds much better , tempted ask god exist , \? god source existence , mean , terms human time , always existed source existence preclude existence seeks identify qualities \( implying exists qualities , btw \) , n't , think existing god cannot know exists , answer question knowable course , obstacle belief existence also discovered science inadequate tool answer appears pihko agrees \( shall see \) tool inadequate answer question preclude question asserting invalid question provide answer impossible know unknowable things however , question exist , particular invalid question said perspective , impossible tell , ca n't believe given explanation instead another , especially since found deluding apologies using come pre existence become existence pre spacetime become spacetime think pre existence oxymoron time spacetime \( except universe \) , perspective , universe never exists inside come admission science fails answer \? ca n't answered realm modern science , make question invalid \? validity question discussed separately think philosophy great help known , knowable \? pihko present good point though may need ask individual christian base faith \? shaken production evidence sacred cows seek understand new discovery truly disagrees god said \( continues say \) word \? good question trying answer , numerous questions bothered , finally found nothing base faith think would honest asked , believe n't believe petri ' '' petri pihko kem pmp mathematics truth ! ' ' ' ' ' pihatie 15 c finou oulu fi physics rule ' ' ' sf 90650 oulu kempmp game ' finland phoenix oulu fi chemistry game
healta saturn wwc edu \( tammy r healy \) subject branch davidians info organization walla walla college lines 40 article mar 18 02 31 54 1993 athos rutgers edu bgsu edu writes bgsu edu subject branch davidians info date 18 mar 93 07 31 55 gmt looking information branch davidians send info chad litton , acs dept bgsu , bowling green oh e mail andy bgsu edu thanks advance n't claim expert branch davidians , might know branch davidian group \( led koresh \) actually one two shoots group known 's rod 's rod \( defunct far know \) broke sda church 30 's 's rod broke away sda church felt sda church becoming weak falling apostacy felt remnant spoken revelation koresh group , koresh gained control 1987 1988 control , made center proclaimed christ koresh came sda background excommunicated young adult local congregation trying exert much control youth church , joined branch davidians cult stockpile weapons , food , bomb shelter , etc intent raiding us government anything preparing putting self defense position opinion , atf fbi left well enough alone , blood 20 children crying ashes waco want know 's rod , might want visit local sda church talk older people could give insight koresh got theology tammy
gt7122b prism gatech edu \( boundary , catechist \) subject assurance hell organization georgia institute technology lines 13 article apr 21 03 26 39 1993 1370 geneva rutgers edu lfoard hopper virginia edu \( lawrence c foard \) writes god must motivate fear god worthy worship god jesus spoke indeed exist would need hell reason existence hell justice fear effect reality hell boundary , catechist teneis que pensar que yo haya venido traer la paz la tierra venido traer la paz , sino la guerra \( mateo 10 34 , vulgata latina \)
schnitzi cs ucf edu \( mark schnitzius \) subject atheists hell organization university central florida lines 70 db7n andrew cmu edu \( andrew byler \) writes mark schnitzius writes literal interpreters bible problem view , since bible talks fires hell something 've always found confusing nerve die physical body , would flame hurt \? one wail teeth lungs teeth \? one feel physical pain body , , know doctrine resurrection body , people great judgement look resurrection dead , life world come nicene constantinopolitan creed body soul hell eventually getting interesting ! raised roman catholic becoming atheist , stated creed quote nearly every sunday 18 reason , always took statement mean resurrection soul , guess resurrection strictly mean raising physical body questions point 1 always thought christians believe descent hell pretty much immediate , people burning hell right seem implying occur great judgement \( read meaning proverbial judgment day \) always little confused point , even church maybe someone clear soul \( , way , n't believe \) exist time \? 2 new body created atoms body made , built scratch \? physical body susceptible aging , etc guess new body radically different order immortal tortured eternity \? 3 since physical body , assume need physical place exist hell \? center earth \? think could find dig \? mark schnitzius schnitzi cs ucf edu univ central florida complete agreement details afterlife think common view final disposition occur final judgement , still future meantime , believe people sleep final resurrection \( god time , pass directly death future time resurrection occurs \) , others believe souls , pre resurrection existence probably alternatives i'm omitting new body generally conceived implemented different technology current one , one mortal \( paul talks mortal raised immortality , jesus' resurrected body first example clearly subject kind limitations \) assumed enough similarities people recognize , n't think people claim know details n't think 'd say 's atoms 'd assume would analog physical place , would n't expect find earth sky 'd suspect 's another dimension , outside physical world , whatever , little way details clh
cs89mcd brunel ac uk \( michael c davis \) subject wbt \( phone number wycliffe translators uk \) organization brunel university , uxbridge , uk lines 17 poram mlsma att att com wrote met peter kingston \( wbt \) years back , struck dedicated christian whose main concern translation word god welfare people group serving wbt literature concerned mainly providing scripture minority languages yes , fact peter wycliffe hq u k , member church would fully endorse peter godly man , passion serving christ one occasion specifically addressed issue sermon , presumably experience allegations directed wycliffe \( perhaps could find tape \? \) michael davis \( cs89mcd brunel ac uk \)
jprzybyl skidmore edu \( jennifer \) subject hell 2 black sabbath organization skidmore college , saratoga springs ny lines 14 hey may wrong , n't jeff fenholt part black sabbath \? 's major brother christ totally changed life around , wife go tours singing , witnessing , spreading gospel christ may wrong black sabbath , know similar band n't particular group great th love father us , called children god ! ! \( 1 john 3 1 \) grace peace , \( 'll see someday ! \) jenny jprzybyl scott skidmore edu
marka hcx1 ssd csd harris com \( mark ashley \) subject hearing sinners organization ft lauderdale , fl lines 24 article apr 21 03 24 19 1993 geneva rutgers edu jek cu nih gov writes question , god hear prayers sinners \? need distinguish say never hears prayers sinned , make pointless prayers anyone born less 19 centuries ago consider prayers sinner , someone says , lord , want , n't expect change way life , different matter doubt god hears everybody 's prayers however , things way , e things happen question really god grant everybody 's wishes \? 'll get brutal shot reality similar n't get toy wanted christmas cannot expect get everything want world mark ashley disclaimer opinions harris' marka gcx1 ssd csd harris com lost los angelino
hayesstw risc1 unisa ac za \( steve hayes \) subject two people married god 's eyes \? organization university south africa lines 27 article apr 16 23 15 27 1993 geneva rutgers edu cs89mcd brunel ac uk \( michael c davis \) writes would like get opinions exactly engaged couple become married god 's eyes \? say two publically announced plans marry , made vows god , unswervingly committed one another \( realize subjective qualifier \) married joined god 's sight way read scripture , couple becomes married physically married , e first sexual intercourse years ago anglican synod discussing marriage canons debate actually constituted marriage bishop natal , whose wife many years died , recently , announced must looked like cat got cream suppose least would agree steve hayes , department missiology editorial department univ south africa , p box 392 , pretoria , 0001 south africa internet hayesstw risc1 unisa ac za fidonet 5 7101 20 steve hayes p5 f22 n7101 z5 fidonet org faq missiology study christian mission part faculty theology unisa
aaron binah cc brandeis edu \( scott aaron \) subject latest branch davidians reply aaron binah cc brandeis edu organization brandeis university lines 36 article apr 20 03 02 42 1993 geneva rutgers edu , conditt tsd arlut utexas edu \( paul conditt \) wrote think 's really sad many people put faith mere man , even claim son god , prophet 'll pose question 's got thinking distinguishes true religion cults \( i'm speaking generally , christianity \) \? jerry good morning america tuesday ostensibly answer question basically , said true religion follows message whereas cult follows person , , christianity cult message christianity person jesus distinguishes , example , branch davidian cult presbyterian church \? doctrinal differences n't answer question , imho , n't use answer scott brandeis god demonstrates lord bless , keep love us , lord make face shine , yet sinners , gracious christ died us lord lift countenance , give peace romans 5 8 nasb numbers 6 24 26 nasb attempts characterize cult commonly uses characteristics involving high pressure , brainwashing techniques , etc people characterize doctrinal error end i'm afraid becomes term precise meaning 's used primarily dismiss groups worthy serious consideration n't mean n't groups highly irresponsible things serious doctrinal errors past discussions suggested cult helpful term clh
reedr cgsvax claremont edu subject proof resurection organization claremont graduate school lines 51 article apr 23 02 56 33 1993 geneva rutgers edu , andrew mq edu au \( andrew \) writes bible 's message love people , people preaches message repentance , giving unfortunately , people deceitful hearts , capable turning message around sometimes unbelievable ways also fundamental christian doctrine andrew , wish true , long day true alas , true history bible message messages messages repentance giving , turn cheek , unto least messages complete opposite like order wipe tribes including women children cattle , punished severely less complete job like jews said cried matthew , blood upon heads heads verse quoted every pogrom crusades holocaust misunderstood \? think understood clearly essential christians grasp firmly good bible teaches , meek carpenter nazareth potent symbol , teachings must take heart , cannot ignore material bible liking say live misread say chose point interpretation declare done anyone instead must let text critique text understanding good bad sacred corpus , test things hold fast good p believe line questioning like presented , strangely enough , compatible becoming christian certainly christianity encourages one question behaviour world , especially christians praise god jesus christ , fact doubt beliefs still come back god forgiven , time time risk sounding heretical \( well ok , heretical \) n't think doubt something requires forgiveness , something requires introspection reflection sin , salvation , doubt part human consider job friends doubt whereas job doubt doubted wisdom justice god god finally appear rebuked friends job make sacrifices christian always doubt , honesty randy
caralv caralv auto trol com \( carol alvin \) subject arrogance christians lines 54 've read carol 's response get 've got verses subject interpretation say say joe , 'cause say n't subject interpretation n't make 's interpretation texts 2 peter 1 20 21 , 2 timothy 3 16 17 , galatians 1 11 12 2 peter 1 20 21 know first , prophecy scripture matter one 's interpretation , prophecy ever made act human , men moved holy spirit spoke god study notes bible offer three possible meanings verse 20 apparantly 's clear charles 2 timothy 3 16 17 scripture inspired god profitable teaching , , correction , training righteousness man god may adequate , equipped every good work 1 11 12 would know , brethren , gospel preached according man neither received man , taught , revelation jesus christ read passages , immediately clear every phrase meant stop think possible connotations words , intent author may , wonder translator used correct english word convey meaning interpret want believe interpreting scripture read , 's probably nothing say change mind think 's naive think culture , experiences , education , affect everything read also , based fact jesus word incarnate judges people follow \( see acts 17 29 31 john 5 21 27 \) reject jesus' teachings judged words spoke \( see john 12 47 50 \) , jesus' words true need interpretation , would god judge based word interpreted college , took entire course biblical interpretation go christian bookstore , scores books interpreting understanding scripture interpretation unnecessary , awful lot misguided christians wasting lot time energy carol alvin caralv auto trol com
aaron binah cc brandeis edu \( scott aaron \) subject bible reply aaron binah cc brandeis edu organization brandeis university lines 24 ofm replies question translations bible , far know , christians believe process copying manuscripts process translating free error unfortunately , n't true another news group earlier year , someone posted king james bible divinely inspired version bible english , therefore , inerrant english translations satan , trying deceive body christ years ago , pastor church attending showed poster advertising availability certain man address congregations poster fact man used kjv idea kjv english bible prevalent many might think scott brandeis god demonstrates lord bless , keep love us , lord make face shine , yet sinners , gracious christ died us lord lift countenance , give peace romans 5 8 nasb numbers 6 24 26 nasb
db7n andrew cmu edu \( andrew byler \) subject serbian genocide work god \? organization freshman , civil engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 57 andrew kille writes suggesting god supports genocide \? perhaps germans punishing jews god 's behalf \? god works way evil , unworthy worship faith bible tell us governments ordained god \( romans 13 \) furthermore , god everything would happen difficult humans limited minds , sucess god 's plan , especially hard grasp see evil however , though evil \( cooperate \) , must understood happens god wanted lead final sucess plan save many souls hell possible short , slaughter bosnia , though deplorable eyes god \( maybe , , might getting deserts rather later plenty examples god killing people sins old example , new \) willed happen plan might accomplished n't forget , god use one nation execute judgement upon another romans used fulfill chorus let blood upon hands crowd chastised babylon , got israel , gotten persia , etc god use nations punish nations , bible clearly shows old testament n't remember words god recorded daniel , , , , peres \? babylon weighed balance scales god 's justice , found severly wanting , thus given persians due punishment rebellion another cannanites , ordered god task israel cannanites given chance , found severly wanting , great judge , carried sentence could go examples , see little need , point quite clear two things need remembered times 1 \) us question god ordered world divine wisdom , made world best eyes , like paul says romans 9 , clay one back potter 2 \) message jesus christ follows repent , kingdom heaven hand jesus christ allow time let dead bury dead , come , follow infinite amount time , rather christ passing right , calling people follow become men say , well , alright , call back week see kingdom fits plans said follow message i'm pie would never hurt fly , 've got time world , divine judgement , 's fairy tale great god savior jesus christ \( titus 2 5 \) also righteous judge world defendants trial questioning entirely sentences either mercy andrew byler ways heart perceive sin , judge men according works \? proverbs 24 12
infonode ingr com \( mark w \) subject atheists hell organization intergraph corporation , huntsville , al lines 27 article apr 20 03 01 40 1993 geneva rutgers edu trajan cwis unomaha edu \( stephen mcintyre \) writes n't problem condemned hell either way see , god wants punish honest skepticism \( , saying n't exist \) , certainly would n't changing nature besides , would rather spend eternity hell beside god heaven knowing even one man would spend eternal life scorched wrongdoings see irony jesus willing go torture free definite promise hell \( based adam eve 's fall grace \) rather allow stand place , would give redemption stand accept grace god would rather none hell , seems put burden choice us course , fictional anyway since reject also former sociology professor told us beginning term , start course term beginning adam eve given mark
jodfishe silver ucs indiana edu \( joseph dale fisher \) subject cell church discussion group organization indiana university lines 5 definition , would cell church iu , whole group gets together indianapolis \( 950 every week attendance \) joe fisher
jodfishe silver ucs indiana edu \( joseph dale fisher \) subject christians church members organization indiana university lines 51 notes church like helpful ideas choose church colossians 1 15 18 jesus head body , church b cannot say yes jesus , church ephesians 2 19 22 church family god b church based word god cornerstone christ foundation apostles new testament prophets old testament \( see revelation 21 9 14 \) 1 corinthians 12 12 13 baptism become member church question denominations bible teaches one church ephesians 4 4 6 , romans 12 4 5 , 1 corinthians 12 12 13 b 1 corinthians 1 10 13 says divisions church following personalities church \( time , writings \) c many churches today problem 2 timothy 4 1 4 says people turn away truth try find church teaches doctrine suits lifestyle hebrews 10 24 25 miss church b purpose encourage , remain faithful involved relationship level church c must come services another verse helpful hebrews 3 12 15 church encouraging daily , duty course , standards apply 1 timothy 4 16 people church watching lives doctrines make sure live word entirely \( ie , disciples \) acts 17 10 12 pastor come close apostle paul \( natural conclusion since apostle paul talked jesus directly face face \) , bereans , considered noble , n't take paul word checked said scripture verify statements , church members verify pastor 's statements verifiable valid light verses , group avoided church \( would 've made wonderful suggestion waco group , especially light matthew 24 \) joe fisher
noye midway uchicago edu \( vera shanti noyes \) subject two people married god 's eyes \? reply noye midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 51 question related jesus condemns divorce several times new testament , hard time catholic church \( far tell \) grant statement marriage never really existed god 's eyes \( please , , correct \) however , witnessed marriages two people much love recognized destroying staying marriage , problems due personal childhood issues never resolved ask , divorce justified case \? knew , , deeply love , end , work must admit n't see jesus forcing live together , even condemning go seek happiness someone else later opinions \? vera clock ! bind unto today vera noyes religion ! strong name noye midway uchicago edu ! trinity disclaimer lard st patrick 's breastplate disclaim \? commonly discussed question , though 's long enough 'll allow asked might expect , range answers catholics others say divorce never justified \( way , situations someone abused , serious cause , separation allowed traditions know one forced stay situation danger \) others see last resort situations fallen apart badly enough best hope choose lesser evils sense difficult legal question turns divorce , 's jesus' statement mark 10 11 12 par many things , turns approach bible conservative protestants tend see statements like exceptions liberal ones willing make situations literal interpretation would lead painful results \( noted time possible man divorce wife almost whim thus common explanation liberal approach jesus trying protect people sort thing , establish absolute rule could never exceptions \) catholics , typical catholic ethics , take theoretical hard line , allow exceptions practice process last discussion non catholic readers seemed accept reluctance cases might good alternative , feeling church often better job helping people prepare marriage deal problems come , properly run church , divorce necessary clh
thor cf ac uk \( \) subject knowing god 's organization lines 20 hi , n't know much bible could tell relations christians non christians bible \? relations christian nations relations christian nations nations christians \? question concept religion bible religion god include necessitate law extracted bible religion belief nothing government sides \? example , government nation one wrongdoings according bible , treated \? statement bible saying bible guide every aspects life \? thank
noye midway uchicago edu \( vera shanti noyes \) subject harrassed work , could use prayers reply noye midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 22 'd like repeat emphasize someone else trying make feel horrible worthless mean feel way , although 's easier say believe sometimes remember , god made loves , must think 're something special \( excuse trite language \) also , bully may someone mean reason intentional mental torture anyone else harassed \? maybe 're talking would emailed reactions n't fast enough post i'm responding n't include address take courage remember us net rooting take care ! vera hand hand noye midway uchicago edu n't seem much \( vera noyes \) hand hand strength common touch drop line 're mood rush , hand fist
noye midway uchicago edu \( vera shanti noyes \) subject going hell \? reply noye midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 51 article apr 24 01 09 10 1993 geneva rutgers edu stoney oyster edu \( stanley \) writes muslims , fear given lie lies , satan need christ us stan stoney oyster edu opinions , may borrow picked one point struck believe \? muslims believe many things christians jews believe believe jesus , messiah , prophet seems much closer christianity religions \( tend somewhat liberal others' beliefs \) also relates serbian ethnic cleansing question waiting condemnations seen stand watch innocent people , even people whose beliefs condemn , case \( n't get wrong , things muslims say women make blood boil \) , tortured , raped \( stories made physically ill \) , killed \? jesus loves , love back would advocate kindness toward \( hopes converting , 's way want put \) rather killing i'm sorry got subject maybe used different title need get chest , however peace \( shalom \) , vera shanti hand hand noye midway uchicago edu n't seem much \( vera noyes \) hand hand strength common touch drop line 're mood rush , hand fist also worried issue 've made posting name earlier today much want discuss moslem beliefs n't right group beliefs jesus appear come much koran bible means honor , think stood differs many ways christian beliefs moslem beliefs appropriate topic soc religion islam i'm sure know , many christians believe must accept christ order saved stanley 's comment appears anti moslem , would assume would say thing religions christianity clh
gt7122b prism gatech edu \( boundary , catechist \) subject going hell \? organization georgia institute technology lines 45 article apr 23 02 55 31 1993 3123 geneva rutgers edu tbrent ecn purdue edu \( timothy j brent \) writes stated consider atheist , definitely believe christian god recent discussion atheists hell , combined post another group \( effect 'you go hell' \) interested consensus god might judge men catholic , told jew , buddhist , etc might go heaven , obviously people believe even see atheists pagans \( assume would lumped category \) hellbound know believe god judge , ask , opinions dear tim say catholic , believe christian god \( suppose means god bible \) publicly state , probability roman catholic public heretics , even err good faith \( material heretics \) , belong body church \( fundamentals catholic dogma , 1960 , ludwig ott , p 311 \) lost , however , still might belong spiritually church desire belong said , god judge condition man 's soul judgment , hand , st paul 1 cor 5 12 \) urges christians judge fellow christians following apostle 's teaching , judge reconsider returning christian fold embrace god abraham , isaac , jacob god lives concerning told non believers catholic , true posted , vatican ii \( , ii , n 16 \) teaches , fault , know gospel christ chruch , nevertheless seek god sincere heart , moved grace , try actions know dictates conscience may achieve eternal salvation responding opinions thinking processes god , best refer scripture scripture one best sources learning known god stick best boundary , catechist teneis que pensar que yo haya venido traer la paz la tierra venido traer la paz , sino la guerra \( mateo 10 34 , tr esp vulgata latina \)
johnsd2 rpi edu \( dan johnson \) subject arrogance christians reply johnsd2 rpi edu organization sun microsystems lines 148 article geneva rutgers edu , gt7122b prism gatech edu \( boundary \) writes dleonar andy bgsu edu \( pixie \) writes deletia sig p sincerely believe god exists , follow blindly \? words question authority mean anything \? defy theist reply deletia probably let pass , 's worth time , 's really intended could n't resist personal weakness mine tragically incurable foundation faith god reason , without existence god could proven existence proven reason indisputable \( cf short treatise , traditional proofs existence god , summa \) prove existance god showing people dispute easy dispute god exists simple missed traditional proofs treatise , proofs remember summa \( 5 ways think \) rather poor stuff ontological argument billion times better , imho would think 'd want non traditional proofs , considering general failure traditional proofs least ones know \( thinking ontological argument , cosmological argument argument ones traditional enough funny names , anyway \) , given god exists , existence proven reason , assert commands must followed blindly , although fallen condition must always measure doubt faith \? real question discuss , 'll assume god exists otherwise , heavenly authority babble god first cause things , first mover matter , independent thing requires nothing else existence , measure perfect , essential gives order universe \( logos \) please show case familiar first cause argument , 'll accept \( sake argument \) first cause , even though find questionable rest 'll show includes first cause god next assert god good got deny god good , contrary god evil e , absence good , since god never contradict , promise savior early genesis 3 5 , god instructs human \( adam \) first responsible man 's alienation source good , man would required act restore friendship thus god became incarnate person messiah n't self consistent humans must renew relationship , god \( incarnate \) ca n't well , unless think god human granted , god made , nonetheless cheating intent statement clearly man fix problem caused god fixing even indirect means contradicts messiah claimed truth \( john 14 6 \) claim true , bound reason follow , truth incarnate \? also , assume said claim true anyway \? claim truth , bound reason follow \? next seem problem authority tried united states marine corps yet \? tell first hand excellent instructor authority \) undoubtably mean imply obey commands marines without question \? seem imply god , marines similar respect trying say , please explain saying , missed yet privilege , reply authority truth incarnate may never questioned , thus must followed blindly \? question \? even truth , cannot know certainly , irrational question \? perhaps thus discover wrong assert god truth ca n't question truth assert god truth anyway question truth assertion less good \? one may deny truth oh \? hereby deny 1 1 2 hope 'll agree 1 1 2 truth granted , look pretty damn silly saying something like , needed something 'd agree clearly true , 'll notice marched drag heaven lighting bolts either mysterious net seem say things , absurd example , proverbial apple fell isaac newton 's head , could denied happened , laws physics must obeyed whether human likes true certainly true least , ones newton derived true , indeed wildly inaccurate high speeds small distances set laws physics always works cases , physics would already science questioning sort truth n't , 'd still follow aristotle 'd generalize little want learn anything new , must question things know \( tm \) always wrong therefore , authority truth may denied even truth may denied , may questioned , god truth , follows god may denied questioned must obeyed ! could unquestioningly disobey annoying us connected denial disobedience dan nickname johnson god said jeeze , dull dull genesis 0 0 opinions probably show know
mangoe cs umd edu \( charley wingate \) subject jesus black \? lines 45 subject seems incredibly inflammatory subscribe biblical archaeology review remember spectacular letter battle set someone complained franklin mint ad \( bar great magazine , contrast rather scholarly articles incredibly ads extreme \) ad , hawking doll head based famous bust , giving face typical doll pink letter complained misrepresentation grounds beautiful black queen set exchange letters ran several issues , point article titled black \? \( answer title greek \) say hear hysterical note much complaining personally seen one haired jesus \( national shrine wash dc \) , found jarring western representations vary , general image male dark hair beard , sort found \( modulo nose \) mediterranean \( also , remember correct , black madonna n't represent person features black accident joe buehler \? \) presence marble statues , one prone forget greeks rather likely black hair one crosses bosporus , situation breaks completely turks white \? persians , various groups indian \? white \? arabs \? picture standing side side white racist bent likely say people white \( e , racist 's race \) may risk potentially inflammatory remark , one seems identification modern jews members race considering extreme medieval religion one hand medieval antisemitism , n't think jesus white thesis ever played roles hold representations jesus black korean whatever fine seems awfully self serving insist jesus belongs one 's racial group c wingate peace god , peace , strife closed sod mangoe cs umd edu yet , brothers , pray one thing tove ! mangoe marv'lous peace god
fsspr acad3 alaska edu \( hardcore alaskan \) subject looking videotapes lines 44 looking recent productions homosexuality decided interested videotaped copies anyone help , would much appreciate looking gay agenda produced ty 's group report john 's recent series understanding homosexuality experiencing genuine change james kennedy 's special homosexuality aired week , portion previous week 's program discussed gay agenda pay money copies , since copyrighted material would illegal pay return postage somebody think something would desire trade , please let know 'll see oh , btw , i'm watching march washington right c span fact i'm generally repulsed i'm watching , found one thing interest general david finished speaking , remarked new york city delegation consists 200 , 000 people funny , n't see 200 , 000 people , period must 've quite party scene last night maybe much sean patrick ryan fsspr aurora alaska edu sean com oregon dr 2 , , ak 2048 907 272 abortion stops beating heart disclaimer n't inhale , either scoreboard 1993 men 16 , women 5 read alt flame sean ryan n't suppose 'd interested hearing homosexual agenda homosexual christians \? homosexual agenda regarded somewhat akin trying understand fundamentalist christianity looking branch dividians might also want look outside evaluations groups claiming change homosexuals church \( presbyterian church \( usa \) \) looked issue , even conservative members committee concerned real long lasting changes 'll interested get reports police press number people participating today presumably 'll better idea tomorrow clh
pmoloney maths tcd ie \( paul moloney \) subject going hell \? organization somewhere twentieth century lines 17 corp mot com \( gerald mcpherson \) writes reject claims jesus , still go heaven , joke 's reject go hell , 's joke , final god 's attitude , 'll think 'll go along terry pratchett 's religious philosophy oh , believe god n't actually like p moorcockpratchettdenislearydelasoulu2iainmbanksneworderheathersbatmanpjorourke clive p u l l n e come , let us retract foreskin misconception james trinity college dublin apply wire brush enlightenment geoffm brownbladerunnersugarcubeselectronicblaylockpowersspikeleekatebushhamcornpizza
trajan cwis unomaha edu \( stephen mcintyre \) subject theists objectivity organization university nebraska omaha lines 90 theist truly objective \? impartial questioning truth scriptures , assume superstition parents questioning \? 've often found case theist stick kind superstition wondering god scriptures 've seen christian , jew , muslim , theists alike assume mothers fathers right aspect god exists , belief search god occasionally , theist may switch religions aspects religion , overall majority keep belief creator behind universe 's existence 've known muslims christians vice versa , 've known christians jewish vice versa , 've even known christians become hindu yet , throughout transition one faith another , 've kept belief form higher \? usually child brought time born , theist brought notion truth kind scripture bible , torah , qur'an , etc told wondrous god wrote \( inspired \) scripture , prophets talked scripture , miracles performed , etc also told question \( children apt \) sin , crime god , lose belief ture 's truth damn one 's soul hell thus , time able read scripture , belief truth ingrained mind seems matter course n't stop child able read , endeavor child right readings scripture , concentrate pleasant readings , gloss worse ones , explain away unexplainable mystery circular arguments , self facts truths , belief , fear hell meat religion child must eat every day doubt , course , means wrath sort , child must learn put away brain matter concerns god considerable effect child , becomes adult , 's taught nearly impossible remove leads ask whether theist truly objective questioning god , hell , heaven , angels , souls , rest , moment , put aside notion god exist look everything unbiased point view \? obviously , theists somewhat , especially presented mythical gods \( , roman , egyptian , etc \) put aside assumption god 's existence question \? stephen atheist libertarian pro individuality pro responsibility jr jazz ad hominem attack basic kind none statements matter believe way brought way course atheists become theists theists become atheists rather latter , surprising given statistics 's hard see one could possibly answer posting sort , since answer could immediately assumed part brainwashing , anyone possibly show n't biased \? clh
reedr cgsvax claremont edu subject really rise \? \? \? organization claremont graduate school lines 65 article apr 21 03 26 15 1993 1349 geneva rutgers edu reedr cgsvax claremont edu writes basic problem argument total complete reliance biblical text luke 's account highly suspect \( would refer commentary acts \) article apr 23 02 56 43 1993 geneva rutgers edu , ata hfsi hfsi com \( john ata \) writes even independent proof luke 's account valid , find strange would take negation truth without direct historical evidence \( least 've mentioned \) back assertion made , unequivocally christian ever faith believing resurrection luke 's account suggests otherwise , absence direct eyewitnesses claim luke mistaken , suggest unequivocal assertion suspect john , problem taken one peice response , without bothering connect parts repeatedly noted one needs take problematic acts examine work john dominic burton mack taken time examine recent developments biblical scholarship , think grasp clearly saying think original claim may somewhat limited answer claim witnesses could n't lying suffer beliefs thus 's necessary show christian ever suffered believing resurrection rather issue whether witnessed agree posting 're responding shows liberal well conservative clh certainly issue think situation waco shows clearly required people willing die belief true , surely david koresh son god , arguement resurrection true people willing die must put rest problem even resurrection big deal \( n't seem either q , thomas , even john certain degree \) lot things early christians could together would worth dying belief even idea mixed race community , brought regional national boundaries name could enough people willing die radical \( e g jonestown , waco , warsaw , etc \) original point roman persecution \( persecution documented proof \) whether carpenter came back dead claim unique particularly roman greek mind point avoidance military civic duty \( e emperor worship \) would much problematic nothing resurrection nero used christians human torches light dinner party n't believe risen savior , supposedly involved incest argument christians resurrection cannot stand critical examination randy
cantva canterbury ac nz \( james \) subject good electronic christian magazine \? organization university canterbury , christchurch , new zealand lines 9 hi , 'd like subscribe leadership magazine wonder one disk instead paper disk would save illustrations , etc word processor 's cut paste good christian magazines like leadership disk media , 'd appreciate info gratitude , james
shimpei leland stanford edu \( shimpei \) subject survey faith vs reason organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa lines 55 following survey conducting term project philosophy class meant give us anything interesting statistically want hear kind voices asking full blown essays , please give us read groups often , please email responses shimpei leland stanford edu mail account infinite , delete questions numbered answers write back would really appreciate since would like start analyzing result soon possible , would like answers april 30 absolutely cannot make , though , would still liken hear answer anyone interested final project please send note effect would like answers april 30 absolutely cannot make , though , would still like hear answer anyone interested final project please send note effect \( better yet , include note along survey response \) 'll try email , probably late may survey question 1 \) ever trouble faith reason \? , trouble \? \( example ever unsure whether creationism holds truth \? practice tarot cards , palm readings , divination conflicts scientific knowledge world \? religion require ignore physical realities seen makes logical sense \? \) basically , would like know ever believed something reason tells wrong question 2 \) conflict , resolve conflict \? question 3 \) n't trouble , think n't \? set guidelines use solving problems \? thank much time shimpei , stanford university email shimpei leland stanford edu three kinds mathematicians count ca n't seems time year please remember 's asked respond email clh
jkellett netcom com \( joe kellett \) subject sex education organization netcom lines 20 article apr 20 03 01 57 1993 geneva rutgers edu bruce liv ac uk \( bruce stephens \) writes 'd fascinated see evidence , please send article ! negative side however , suspect simplistic link abstinence education decreased pregnancy , contraceptive education increased pregnancy false us , 'd guess one largest proportion non liberal sex education western world also one highest teenage pregnancy rates \( please correct guess wrong \) 've sent article terms group discussion , wanted point non liberal education \( head sand \) abstinence education non liberal education regarding drugs kid 60 's , n't us lot good abstinence education regarding drugs proven effective , think joe kellett jkellett netcom com
khan0095 nova gmi edu \( mohammad razi khan \) subject work god \? \? ! ! \) organization gmi engineering management institute , flint , mi lines 33 hedrick cs rutgers edu writes distinctions neither jew greek , neither slave free , neither male female moslems know , may preach , n't kill muslim \( spelled sometimes moslem \) must say muslims strong ly believe jesus refered islamic text \( \) jesus j \( pronounced eee saw \) yah knew well ideally , war even even time war , goal peace try refrain peace others violate , peace n't like war , conflict territory croats , muslims , serbs lived together peace point im sure general would n't mind president mohammad r khan khan0095 nova gmi edu july '93 , please send mail mkhan nyx cs du edu christian perspective , moslem ideas jesus look rather seriously erroneous 've generally tried avoid discussions islam group , since soc religion islam right place thus n't much want go detail simply note moslems reject christians regard essential facts jesus least christian perspective moslems n't know jesus , justification christians hate moslems kill agree war never clh
reedr cgsvax claremont edu subject q lost gospel organization claremont graduate school lines 5 finished reading burton mack 's new book , lost gospel , q christian origins thought totally cool anyone else read want talk \? randy
virginia edu \( charles campbell \) subject jesus black \? organization university virginia lines 21 jesus born jew biblical accounts mother 's ancestry father 's , tracing back david seems reasonable assume , therefore , jesus semitic interesting aside , jesus' semitic makes neither white black , sense underscores point made earlier color important , message , grace , divinity concentrate finally , would direct anyone interested african involvement church account conversion ethiopian acts chapter 9 \( think 's chapter 9 \) one earliest conversions , , treasurer queen , definitely african ethiopia time indicated region south egypt , many also speculate man first african christian , first black christian well god bless , charles campbell
noring netcom com \( jon noring \) subject christians church members organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 69 article gchin ssf eng sun com writes years , met christians associated local church members local church issue may personal , important bible say encourage friends regard issue \? brings interesting subject discussed much , probably studied much may aware , 've posted lot articles lately personality typing \( test vehicle \) come speed , read psychology ask personality type summary file one observation people significantly different personalities \( question \) seem essentially born respect church attendance participation , people thrive , people real difficulty prefer solitary lifestyle , de confronted excessive outside activities lots people course measured impression many churches totally blind fact , create environments many naturally \( many characters bible , btw \) know , quite preference , find many churches participate , meet together large groups , etc , uncomfortable knowing know , churches overly influenced highly people thrive sort thing \( btw , 's nothing wrong either , preferences place body \) maybe define carefully since words usually used correctly culture scale measure person following excerpted summary 1 person \( e \) preference drawing energy outside world people , activities things \( \) preference drawing energy one 's internal world ideas , emotions , impressions hopefully elicit discussion churches structure meet real needs people comprise body christ , instead trying change people 's personalities fit particular framework i'm sure aspects churches properly understood personality among members detriment jon noring charter member infj club 're dying know infj means , brave , e mail , 'll send info jon noring noring netcom com jkn international ip 192 100 81 100 fred's gourmet chocolate 1312 carlton place phone \( 510 \) 294 8153 chips world 's best ! livermore , ca 94550 v mail \( 510 \) 417 4101 \? read alt psychology personality ! 's action
todd nickel laurentian ca subject two people married god 's eyes \? organization laurentian university lines 48 article apr 24 01 08 03 1993 geneva rutgers edu , marka hcx1 ssd csd harris com \( mark ashley \) writes bibles hand give exact chapter verse time jesus told peter rock , said whatever hold true earth held true heaven , whatever n't hold true wo n't true heaven therefore , respect marriage , ceremony done rc priest big parties required priest , couple witnesses divorce allowed granted upon approval either bishop pope \( sure pope delegates function \) maybe i'm little tired ca n't seem follow logic whatever held true earth held true heaven priest \( rc apparently \) required fact read next verse correctly \( matthew 18 19 \) understand marriage take place two required agree earth touching one thing shall done todd mark ashley disclaimer opinions harris' marka gcx1 ssd csd harris com lost los angelino unfortunately n't able find completely precise statements needed \( usual , current edition catholic encyclopedia vague \) know priest viewed witness , thus sense would required however part purpose formal marriage avoid ambiguity taken commitment community provides support marriage , cases problems involved helping make sure people carry much commitment possible thus marriage must public commitment presence priest required regular marriage i'm clear exactly boundaries exceptional cases \( valid irregular \) ne \( \) says marriage involving catholic valid without priest \( according oxford dictionary church \) , imply new canon law , 'd rather see recent authoritative source note catholic priest required catholics , catholic church recognize marriage baptized non catholics valid without priest clh
aa888 freenet carleton ca \( mark baker \) subject arrogance christians reply aa888 freenet carleton ca \( mark baker \) organization national capital freenet lines 106 follows , moderator already answered charge arrogance could done , confine answering charge previous article , eugene bigelow ebay sun com \( geno \) says n't think belief right everyone else 's belief wrong , n't belief simply belief means unfortunatly , seems christians taught think comes religion everyone western intellectual tradition , , taught think fundamental thing true converse necessarilly false without basic theology science know alike impossible distinguish strong weak meanings word believe , however weak sense means sure believe tom went library \( could gone track \) strong sense means certain use basis thought believe nature operates according certain fundamental laws \( despite fact nature appears unpredictable \) christian belief strong kind \( though christians may well hold beliefs weak kind number theological topics \) take extreme say religion one n't accept teachings wo n't saved note two separate ideas hold first view , majority hold second matter pure logic true , hinduism \( example \) must necessarilly false , insofar contradicts incompatible , \( , matter logic , vice versa \) takes quite bit arrogance claim know god thinks wants arrogant claim know anyone thinks wants , unless told christians believe god told us thinks wants especially 's based upon interpretation book christians base belief bible , living tradition church established christ guided constantly holy spirit bible simply written core tradition logic statement faulty assumes two people differing beliefs ca n't correct depends mean differing believe tom six feet tall believe weighs 200 pounds , beliefs differ , may right believe tom six feet tall beleive four foot nine , one us , least , must wrong 's perception two people exactly alike two people perceive everything way believe one truth call god 's truth , universal truth , call n't believe god presents truth think 's look see , prayer , meditation , ation , dreams whatever people may perceive truth differently , n't mean one wrong right thus believe single truth human find assert anyone believe find absolute truth mistaken short , believe anyone share belief point wrong qed example , take question , glass half empty half full \? two different answers contradictory yet correct , belief true , require everyone else 's belief wrong begin suspect real difficulty truth , simply language saying glass half empty contradiction statement half full fact expressed different words \( whole point phrase illustrate different ways optimist express fact \) , course , quite true different people may express belief different words also true may fail understand 's words expressions belief may argue bitterly believe miles apart great occurred way , much ecumenical work done simply resolving differences language conceal agreement belief mean , sense , beliefs equally valid since beliefs people hold contradict beliefs people hold , language culture expression beliefs stripped away , beliefs people hold must , necessarilly false , neither arrogant illogical say believe x believe may correct , equivalent x one us wrong long hold respective beliefs , must regard error mark baker task cut jungles , aa888 freenet carleton ca irrigate deserts c lewis
marka hcx1 ssd csd harris com \( mark ashley \) subject jesus black \? organization fl lines 31 article apr 24 01 08 17 1993 geneva rutgers edu andy bgsu edu \( sherlette dixon \) writes people post particular newsgroup either cowardly , accusations worldwide conspiracy blacks since jesus born middle east , expect human features similar middle point time since camera n't invented yet guess looked like example , dinosaur bones 're digging still n't know yellow dotted , orange 8 \) likewise , n't think anybody picture jesus \( \? 8 \) \) current image jesus best guess okay let 's assume jesus black would make follow \? cause follow teachings , skin color becomes moot point , anyway counts life \? faith jesus skin color \( human \) \? interest historical accuracy , however , since jesus israel would n't skin color like jew \? e fair skinned \? although probably heavily desert sun \? experts area speak ! ! ! cause i'm 8 \) mark ashley disclaimer opinions harris' marka gcx1 ssd csd harris com lost los angelino
saturn wwc edu \( mark gregory foster \) subject sabbath admissions 5of5 organization walla walla college lines 60 article apr 15 00 58 33 1993 athos rutgers edu dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu \( darius lecointe \) writes faq response deleted darius 's clear much needs said faq think paul 's comments one day another \( rom 14 \) probably needs said accept darius honor lord wish might equally accept esteem days alike similarly best honor lord sda total agreement darius say also worship saturday honor lord mention days alike imo fast days observed jews matter interpret passage , accept worship sunday done honor lord , contrast many fellow sda believers may believe , though , bible overwhelmingly points saturday day kept honor creation god 's deliverance israelites egyptian bondage would attempt point observance saturday legalistic , simply case rather , keeping saturday allows full day rest contemplate god 's goodness grace however 'd like clear think 's unambiguous proof regular christian worship first day indicated , responses passages cited similarly 1 cor 16 2 says first day set aside money paul 's collection want believe gathered specially , homes , ca n't disprove , obvious time congregation take offering would normally gather worship , expected homes would reason mention specific day idea introduced reason paul wanted corinthians lay aside money collection first day week received weekly wages paul wanted lay aside money collection first priority , spending money things proof front though , although would explain would lay aside money homes instead meeting think obvious reading first day every week simply means every time gather worship think reason implications clear statements nt authors assumed readers knew christian worship would seem assume christians nt regularly worshipped first day assume christians nt regularly worshipped seventh day agree implications authors assume reader knew mark
cs89mcd brunel ac uk \( michael c davis \) subject two people married god 's eyes \? organization brunel university , uxbridge , uk lines 62 robert anderson \( randerso acad1 sahs uth tmc edu \) wrote would like get opinions exactly engaged couple become married god 's eyes \? say two publically announced plans marry , made vows god , unswervingly committed one another \( realize subjective qualifier \) married joined god 's sight way read scripture , couple becomes married physically married , e first sexual intercourse e g end genesis 2 \( quoted memory \) reason , man shall leave parents joined wife , become one \( jesus also quotes scripture referring marriage \) read genesis particular , often come across `` man lay woman , became implies became wife lay together , e point intercourse compare jewish tradition joseph , heard mary pregnant , mind divorce quietly mary joseph betrothed , married e , binding relationship \( required divorce get \) , marriage would occur mary joseph went bed together compare christ church \( ephesians 5 , revelation 19 \) church described christ , marriage lamb takes place jesus returns e , binding love relationship jesus , still looking forward time marriage take place see spiritual equivalent sexual intercourse , represents intimate fellowship possible man god summary , engagement honoured binding relationship , marriage civil ceremony marriage either marriage occurs point betrothed couple go bed together \( n't mean civil church ceremony great ! n't mean \) historically , think correct stating civil ceremony \( e marriage recognised state \) , around west since napoleon , introduced keep tabs people \( although i'm ready corrected point ! \) view obviously raises questions sex one partners , without considering marriage people also \? true marriage occurs point intercourse , necessary married eyes state \? \( would say yes , honours laws nations west although illegal sleep together though western countries , believe god honouring proclaim marriage state friends actually marriage salt light , also people perceive us e culturally insensitive declare married without going civil ceremony \) michael davis \( cs89mcd brunel ac uk \) hast thou slain \? come arms , beamish boy !
alvin spot colorado edu \( kenneth alvin \) subject certainty arrogance organization university colorado , boulder lines 48 responding moderator article apr 14 03 09 07 1993 athos rutgers edu alvin spot colorado edu \( kenneth alvin \) writes choosing believe rely important areas personal sovereignty bothers others suggest , matters faith , specific beliefs true absolute binding others follows god must give everyone revelation truth , thus anyone comes different conclusion intentionally choosing wrong path arrogance see lack respect honest conclusions others matters god certainly reasonable ask humility ability know truth also different paths areas practice 'd like see clarification mean reject idea saying specific beliefs true absolute binding others something true , true everyone , assuming belief something god , history , etc yes , agree i'm trying point , matters faith \( e tenets logically persuasive \) , one may convinced truth certain things , instance , personal revelation certainly fine share revelation beliefs others n't think arrogant , , accepts matters pure faith truth oneself think conflict arises assuming , disagreements beliefs arise , others must given truth , god must reveal truth everyone way would honestly agree think lead conclusion anyone disagrees sinful dishonest rejecting something know truth inconvenient , wish god would say equivalent assuming truths one holds universal absolute problem see individuality humans relationships god mean absolute truth areas doctrinal disagreement may areas god established revealed truth comments , criticism welcome ken alvin ucsu colorado edu agree clh
shellgate ! llo uu4 psi com \( larry l overacker \) subject easter 's name \? \( new testament double stan organization shell oil lines 36 article apr 14 03 09 10 1993 athos rutgers edu dsegard nyx cs du edu \( daniel segard \) writes argument would compelling ishtar eggs ishtar bunnies mix pagan fertility symbols worship pagan goddess fertility biblical belief \? would really lost drop word easter replace occurances resurrection sunday \? would show services called resurrection sunday services rather easter services \? another way view true celebration easter , resurrection lord true foundation world pagan practices either 1 true celebration resurrection , dim light forth people would recognize full truth manifested , 2 satanic intended deceive us would recognize truth manifested n't believe second argument , believe power resurrection , fulfillment incarnation , hope earlier parallel ideas religions clearly dim images truth resurrection paul states , see glass others serves purpose arguing darker lighter glass perfect \? god today imperfect , yet perfected gift , 're perfect larry overacker \( llo shell com \) lawrence overacker shell oil company , information center houston , tx \( 713 \) 245 2965 llo shell com
jsledd ssdc sas upenn edu \( james sledd \) subject intolerance eternal life etc organization social science computing lines 89 hi xian netters , god bless contents 1 intro 2 love neighbor 3 reaction posts purpose b eternal life 've reading news group religiously \) month sometimes really gives need , spiritually times get little irate kinds people every group take offense intolerance 's awfully hard tolerate people \) \( oops ! 've gone smiley quota already 's second paragraph \( imho follow commandment love thy neighbor leave judging god specifically one 's sexual orientation part one 's self love sinner hate sin apply pay attention love neighbor wether like 'd happy get flamed endlessly loose scripture quotation contests defend point beleive correct btw love sinner hate sin slippery slope , hatred bottom incredibly chopped post wo n't even try tell deletions came means jayne means dan johnson means eric article 28388 athos rutgers edu , jayne mmalt guild org \( jayne kulikauskas \) writes gsu0033 uxa ecn bgu edu \( eric molas \) writes free gifts meaning \( never quite understood god give life meaning , actually says exists x , gives purpose care accept , thing \? digress \) find dissatisfied little purposes manufacture little cosmic sense even greatest great long gone , historical worn wind , eventually turned dust mankind one day perish without transcends physical , without god , pointless end people able live , little purposes \( success , money , power , change , helping others \) suffice suppose never think cosmic scale , least able put minds , comforting know reality illusion true reality underneath physical spirit world school sorts , learn grow , souls mature gives purpose little purposes , takes pressure 's necessary make life success human terms 're really learn 's important progress , grow , persist , learn love others express love , especially 's dificult honest effort rewarded god , knows limitations live forever god ah , begin diverge live forever anyone \( n't think either , welcome opinion matter \) interesting theological question feeling common perception eternal life way base imprisoned limited ego mind doubt would choose would get awfully boring two serious questions invitations discussion 1 nature eternal life \? 2 mortals locked space time conceive \? possible answer 2 best metaphor analogy question 2a best metaphor \?
tas pegasus com \( len howard \) subject sin block prayers \? organization pegasus , honolulu lines 24 article apr 12 03 45 11 1993 athos rutgers edu jayne mmalt guild org \( jayne kulikauskas \) writes mike boulder snsc unr edu \( mike \) writes honoring wives cause prayers hindered prayers may hindered peter 3 7 one interpretation 've heard verse refers sin physically abusing one 's wife husband usually physically stronger wife permitted use dominate must honor sister christ would therefore example specific sin blocks prayer jayne kulikauskas jayne mmalt guild org would bit specific looking verse regard prayer trouble thinking god would allow anything block access prayer , especially sinned praying see , however , prayer life might hindered sin , concentrating causing sin happened , may thinking prayer , thus prayers actions n't think anything transmission , reception prayer god shalom , len howard
mussack austin ibm com \( chris mussack \) subject atheist 's views christianity \( accepting jeesus heart \) soc religion christian reply mussack austin ibm com lines 38 article apr 13 00 08 22 1993 athos rutgers edu , trajan cwis unomaha edu \( stephen mcintyre \) writes norris athena mit edu writes example universe exist \? must \? ask also assume god namely , exists , existence question reversed , ca n't assume universe exists assume god exist \? must universe \? whether find pascal 's \( \? \) wager spend lives searching , merely wasted lives , meaningless anyway n't search , wasted potentially meaningful lives suppose universe 5 billion years old , suppose lasts another 5 billion years suppose live 100 nothing , small scary searching along friends earth nothing else n't scared woke party , memory , everyone discussing host might \? might host , say say let 's go find , party 's going sometime , maybe 'll let us stay recognize mortality find well , , buddhism , , taoism , hinduism , judaism , , , islam fit bit logic quite nicely \) depth , enduring values , thus must true good point good point studying religion ignoring christians disagree , worthwhile study different religions philosophies glean truth quote \( course context \) test everything keep true chris mussack
aa888 freenet carleton ca \( mark baker \) subject arrogance christians reply aa888 freenet carleton ca \( mark baker \) organization national capital freenet lines 22 previous article , mhsu lonestar utsa edu \( melinda hsu \) says well argument usually stops right end , n't kids , groping truth \? , authority declare beliefs besides false \? n't think belief right everyone else 's belief wrong , n't belief simply belief means authority belief come \? nowhere , belief produce authority belief , find authority belief legitimacy authority short , mind start somewhere \( way , majority christians , e catholics , believe authority church , derive authority bible acceptance church \) mark baker task cut jungles , aa888 freenet carleton ca irrigate deserts c lewis
tedr athena cs uga edu \( ted kalivoda \) subject rom 9 11 article ready requests organization university georgia , athens lines 14 section richard book , christ end law , romans 10 14 pauline perspective section contextual setting meaning romans 9 11 addition , 111 since file long , reasons , take requests article personally course , believe insights true , , quite damaging traditional view ted kalivoda \( tedr athena cs uga edu \) university georgia , athens institute higher ed
phs431d vaxc cc monash edu au subject arrogance christians organization monash university melbourne australia lines 41 article apr 13 00 08 47 1993 athos rutgers edu , hayesstw risc1 unisa ac za \( steve hayes \) writes say , example , people living volcanic island , group geologists determine volcano imminent warn people island danger , leave group people island given task warning others danger believe danger real , others may mean first group necessarily arrogant warning others danger \? mean saying beliefs correct , others false \? geologists wrong people warning non existent danger \? analogies push argument far \( sides \) melinda 's assume premises used set respective analogies true thus correct conclusion arise important point note different directions sides come christians believe know truth thus believe right \( duty \) tell truth christians get offended others believe \( self evidently \) truth non christians believe truth get offended \( christians \) claim know truth \( btw argument goes anyone , christians \) neither side really reconciled unless one parties changes mind melinda pointed , point arguing along lines approach different premise useful line discussion people believe particular faiths personally , n't mind anyone believes long allow mine live peacefully steve hayes , department missiology editorial department lowe , department physics , monash university , melbourne , victoria , australia , 3168
whitsebd nextwork rose hulman edu \( bryan whitsell \) subject accepting jesus heart reply whitsebd nextwork rose hulman edu organization computer science department rose hulman lines 7 told seem smug post anyone felt way desire come across way trying express n't understand logic wished best life christ 's love , bryan whitsell
jek cu nih gov subject watt misquoted lines 30 heath athena cs uga edu \( terrance heath \) writes realize i'm entering discussion rather late , one question n't reagan appointee , james watt , pentacostal christian \( think \) secretary interior saw problem deforestation since living last days would last generation see redwoods anyway \? record february 5 , 1981 , house representatives interior committee meeting , rep james weaver \( , ore \) , asked watt whether agree save scenic resources children , \? watt 's answer absolutely delicate balance secretary interior must steward natural resources generation well future generations know many future generations count lord returns whatever , manage skill resources needed future generations source column evans robert novak op ed page washington post friday 21 august 1981 , james kiefer
mandtbacka finabo abo fi \( mats andtbacka \) subject accepting jeesus heart organization unorganized usenet postings uninc lines 65 apr 13 00 08 15 1993 28388 athos rutgers edu jayne mmalt guild org writes gsu0033 uxa ecn bgu edu \( eric molas \) writes firstly , atheist posting immature flame start , rather express opinion intended audience deleted animals need sleep , food , reproduce die glad atheist seems tragic people choose meaningless existence terrible go living one fears death life \? huh \? okay , i'm eric molas , even feels life , disagree life , , definitely meaningless precisely purpose meaning choose give go living like living needed reason , 'd free completely free ! pick reason suited freedom almost 's probably closest 've ever experience i'm glad atheist would n't anything else feel sorry eric yet attempts share joy life would considered evidence infectious nature christianity unless , explaining subjective experience , also try convert proselytize merely explaining effects personally experience religion , infectious unless eric paranoid , christian free human person think , love , choose , create live forever god whatever goat sound happy enough 's fairly much matters , right \? christ kind drug drugs replacement christ pardon , strikes sentence sounds reversible empty spot god shaped hole hearts must something ease pain empty spot \? god shaped hole \? hear things lot theists never quite understand talking maybe others , would n't know n't , , 'd seek help n't sound like mentally healthy situation , walking around oneself thank , eric post helped appreciate much god blessed hope someday joy filled abundant life well , written original post , n't know intended interpreted way , reread carefully , somewhat doubt least , 's gets across , mileage may vary disclaimer \? 's great young insane !
hobbes kzoo edu \( philip g sells \) subject hebrew grammar texts choose english german \? organization kalamazoo college alumni association lines 28 greetings , probably tired old horse , maybe slightly different twist wanted know good english language texts learning ancient hebrew , compare german educational texts , anybody idea ca n't figure buy one later study wait get back u something find interesting studying theology germany fact students get ancient language learning way early i'm theology student , spend lot time folks careers take first two years greek latin hebrew possibly aramaic , knows 's like divinity schools seminaries states \? lot language instruction done \? really n't basis comparison regards , phil philip sells anything hard lord \? hobbes kzoo edu gen 18 14 better worse , n't tradition classical education u , generally seminary believes students know greek , teach 's common seminaries require least semester hebrew greek , though course required serious scholarship clh
mserv mozart cc iup edu \( mail server \) subject cause lines 38 trajan cwis unomaha edu \( stephen mcintyre \) writes norris athena mit edu writes stuff deleted fortunately convenience us believers , class questions never reduced away natural science example universe exist \? must \? ask also assume god namely , exists , existence question reversed , ca n't assume universe exists assume god exist \? must universe \? remainder message deleted pardon replying portion message \) reason say god exists ca n't say universe exists universe natural realm subject natural laws general law cause effect particular , observe nature every cause effect , every effect produced cause existence natural realm , effect , cannot cause must therefore supernatural cause god , hand , supernatural , therefore subject natural laws law cause effect supernatural , god 's eternal existence imply previous cause way existence physical , natural cosmos thus , believe supernatural valid basis accepting existence phenomena eternal god , whereas deny existence supernatural faced dilemma physical universe whose nature shows sufficient explain existence , course , oversimplification complex topic , wanted clarify important differences supernatural \( god \) natural \( universe \) , since seem mistake interchangeable mark
adam mit edu \( rob steele \) subject accepting jeesus heart reply rob mit edu organization mit lincoln laboratory lines 17 article apr 10 05 32 36 1993 athos rutgers edu gsu0033 uxa ecn bgu edu \( eric molas \) writes animals need sleep , food , reproduce die agree need sleep etc , disagree animals statement negative 's like saying elephants may true one would omniscient know sure rob steele coming understand anything mit lincoln laboratory rejecting facts 244 wood st , 203 us favour facts lexington , 02173 617 981 c lewis
adam mit edu \( rob steele \) subject atheist 's views christianity \( accepting jeesus heart \) reply rob mit edu organization mit lincoln laboratory lines 19 article apr 13 00 08 22 1993 athos rutgers edu trajan cwis unomaha edu \( stephen mcintyre \) writes well , , buddhism , , taoism , hinduism , judaism , , , islam fit bit logic quite nicely \) depth , enduring values , thus must true yep 's truth religions , even science christianity n't claim know claim certain things true though contradict truth claims ca n't true rob steele coming understand anything mit lincoln laboratory rejecting facts 244 wood st , 203 us favour facts lexington , 02173 617 981 c lewis
adam mit edu \( rob steele \) subject two people married god 's eyes \? reply rob mit edu organization mit lincoln laboratory lines 15 think lewis said wedding , 's principals marry church state present merely witnesses rob steele coming understand anything mit lincoln laboratory rejecting facts 244 wood st , 203 us favour facts lexington , 02173 617 981 c lewis lewis 's summary standard catholic theology however n't mean presence witnesses optional , except odd situations like standard desert island clh
dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu \( darius lecointe \) subject questions new christian organization florida state university lines 27 18669 bach udel edu \( steven r hoskins \) writes realize ignorant much bible quite possibly christians hold true trying rectify \( reading bible course \) , would helpful also read good interpretation commentary bible relevant aspects christian faith one questions would like ask anyone recommend good reading list theological works intended lay person \? wo n't even recommend books congregation ask sounds attractive dangerous new christian n't want contaminated people 's interpretation steep self scripture , discuss christians read must remember people write interpretation god promised give light , ask another question would like ask yet affiliated one congregation aside matters taste , criteria one use choosing church \? n't really know difference various protestant denominations n't wait long attaching church remember always compare teach scripture like bereans darius
jek cu nih gov subject two people married lines 128 sent mr anderson privately post think general interest copy something wrote another list may find relevant asks makes common law marriages wrong \? common law marriage necessarily wrong nothing bible \( old new testament \) getting married preacher , priest \( jewish christian \) fact jewish priests never connection weddings common notion marriage performed clergyman fact , traditional christian view \( least west \) bride ministers marriage , clergyman witness however ! essential ingredient marriage mutual commitment two persons considered married bound mutual promises live together husband wife , forsaking others , till death part reason reason concerned married always insisted kind public ceremony order society , couple , may clear whether commitment made suppose away public ceremony , standard vows , etc instead , man woman settling live together year , man says woman hey , honey , great lasted , think 's time move says talking \? says leaving looking someone prettier younger says ca n't married ! says talking \? never got married says remember distinctly said night first made love said love deep ocean , eternal stars long live , , utterly completely lie deathbed , last feeble breath utter name says oh ! rhetoric poetry man romantic mood , bound say kinds silly things like must n't take literally insistence formal ceremony matter public record church insists , duty \( among things \) give moral advice , cannot give man moral advice relations woman idea married , anybody , vice versa state insists , since state concern property rights , child care support , therefore needs know made commitments prospective fathers law insist , n't want daughters abandoned prospective spouses insist , want make sure know whether hearing real commitment , poetry persons making vows insist making formally publicly , order may clear minds , may know rhetoric real thing hence insistence formal public explicit marriage commitment church goes insists , christians marry , clergyman shall present wedding record vows behalf church , impossible valid wedding without clergyman , order make sure couple understand christian teaching marriage , fact promising married christian sense church also prefers standard marriage vow , wary letting couples write vows , much reason lawyers prefer standard terminology draw contract certain language repeatedly used wills , one sure courts interpret try say thing words , may find judge 's interpretation intended similarly , church prefers avoid endless debates whether main squeeze long haul fact cover territory forsaking others till death us part topic come list \( topic n't \? \) one asking , couple love living together , n't marriage eyes god \? eventually someone asked , case , status break \? moral equivalent getting divorce \? relationship god forbids either walk \? original said good grief , never thought ! fact , reasonable grounds someone says , n't need piece paper ceremony front judge preacher order show love , trying ways advantages marriage plus option changing mind minimum bother point someone may say , none applies mate quite clear fact assumed lifelong commitment , 'for better worse , forsaking others , till death us part ' case , ceremony needed reply would reason requiring driver 's license keep dangerous drivers road wrong existence unlicensed drivers , existence dangerous drivers however , testing licensing drivers obvious reasonable means pursuing goal reducing number dangerous drivers road therefore state rightly makes enforces laws , citizen positive moral obligation refrain driving without license matter much behind wheel think back original question knows couple living together around 20 years asks point stop start married \? answer point , , definitely explicitly accepted obligation faithful , better worse , long lived accepted obligation , reasons willing declare front , say , justice peace \? , james kiefer
owlnet rice edu \( robert john butera \) subject book review wanted organization rice university lines 18 i'm interested anyone point towards review following book scholarly christian journal , whether conservative liberal , protestant catholic lost years jesus \( documentary evidence jesus' 17 year journey east \) , elizabeth clare prophet supposedly theory refuted past , examined thought another novel book , saw listed text class religious studies also , seem come credible sources , i'm wondering scholars reviewed \( anyone net , matter \) rob butera ece grad student sick music makes money today rice university houston , tx nietzsche , 1888
oser fermi wustl edu \( scott oser \) subject really rise \? organization washington university astrophysics lines 4 frank , got mailing early historical references christianity 'd like respond , lost address please mail scott oser
halsall murray fordham edu \( paul halsall \) subject bible unsuitable new christians reply halsall murray fordham edu organization j random misconfigured site lines 42 new christian wrote new faith learning reading bible , course sure best path follow bible , christians , word god , revelation god jesus christ chief legacy church recommending one , recommend finding comfortable christian congregation develop faith , rather reading bible mean bible read , although would stick gospels , epistles , psalms avoid book revelation altogether friends comfortable sure mistakenly projects read entire bible frequently remarkable lack somewhere middle leviticus , really sturdy , somewhere chronicles point bible illustrate faith christians , provide faith vital beliefs virtually christians simply mentioned trinity , natures christ , types church organization beliefs practices developed lived experience christian people , experience lived one hopes spirit bible , think , better studies context congregation , context reading following suggestion old confessor mine , would even suggest good novel good way reflect christian life novels actually discussing nature good evil human heart induction christian faith brought grace reading graham greene power glory poetry gerard hopkins would also recommend graham greene 's novel iris murdoch last even christian , insistence need good life , , frankly , often god directed reading reading many parts bible christian letting soul life , way , directed towards infinite , represented us person jesus christ paul halsall halsall murray fordham edu
aa888 freenet carleton ca \( mark baker \) subject nature god \( environmentalism paganism \) reply aa888 freenet carleton ca \( mark baker \) organization national capital freenet lines 31 previous article , mcovingt ai uga edu \( michael covington \) says article apr 13 00 08 44 1993 athos rutgers edu heath athena cs uga edu \( terrance heath \) writes necessarily unorthodox christians call god , using metaphor bible one place refers god like mother god neither father mother literal sense god attributes father metaphor usually used \( people times \) less misleading two possibilities n't know passage refering , passage often seen cited example mother image god isaiah 49 15 woman forget sucking child compassion son womb \? even may forget , yet forget passage mother image god mother image best human show , contrasted god mother figure represents mankind , god mark baker task cut jungles , aa888 freenet carleton ca irrigate deserts c lewis luke 13 34 jerusalem , jerusalem , killing prophets stoning sent ! often would gathered children together hen gathers wings , would ! clh
jhpb sarto budd lake nj us \( joseph h buehler \) subject sspx schism \? organization none lines 240 larry l overacker writes , responding simon may interesting see brief selections posted net understanding sspx consider schism legitimately excommunicated 's really beside point roman catholic church say \? excommunication real apart formal excommunication , provided canon law 's theology involved interested confusion issue sspx 's schism often basic problem lack ability distinguish true obedience false obedience disobedience schism take various obedience first 2 important elements involved purposes 1 \) command 2 \) response made command far command goes , commands legitimate , pope ordering catholics eat meat fridays illegitimate , pope ordering catholics worship god every full moon comes around far response command goes , refuse commanded , comply making table , thus 4 command response name legitimate comply true obedience illegitimate refuse true obedience legitimate refuse disobedience illegitimate comply false obedience see 3 obedience come obedience solely matter compliance refusal nature commands must also taken account enough consider someone 's compliance refusal say whether obedient disobedient also take consideration whether commands good bad example , pope commands catholics worship god , refuse , n't disobedient ! far society saint pius x goes , certainly refusing comply certain things pope desires alone insufficient allow one label disobedient also consider nature papal desires 's rub sspx says popes since vatican ii commanding certain bad things church popes course disagreed \? another arian heresy , complete weak popes \? sspx priests modern martin \? well , way answer examine saying , traditional teaching church problem catholics much idea really going , issues religion american catholics especially defective intellectual depth never read issues discussed catholic press country \( hand , one italian catholic magazine get 30 days interviews superior general society saint pius x \) many catholics decide side pope soundness , papacy infallible , eventually pope straighten , hand , also , , short term , popes may indeed wrong , catholics nothing help situation obeying 're wrong fact , situation grave enough , sin obeying least , 're wasting great opportunity , failing love christ heroic way time needs badly schism let 's move schism \? schism superset disobedience \( refusal obey legitimate command \) schismatics disobedient 's superset , n't work way around schismatics mere fact sspx priests n't comply holy father 's desires n't make schismatics must added disobedience constitute schism \? maybe something else makes sspx priests schismatics must add rejection right command look decent reference catholic theology , 's 'll find distinguishing criterion schism rejection right command 's catholic encyclopedia says , example every disobedience schism order possess character must include besides commands , denial divine right command \( ce article schism \) society saint pius x schismatic \? answer clear say pope boss pray every day 's matters far schism goes boils leave aside consideration exact nature objections , position legitimate one , far catholic theology obedience schism goes resisting certain papal policies think clearly contrary traditional teaching papacy , best interests church \( fact , someone finds situation duty resist \) , stance rome \? well , read holy father 's dei , find 's definitive document subject specifically papal act 's product roman congregation , letter pope possibly never even read 's pope boss god 's one else complain document , holy father says , among things 1 \) episcopal consecrations performed archbishop lefebvre constituted schismatic act 2 \) archbishop lefebvre 's problem misunderstanding nature confusing fail see logic pope 's points far episcopal consecrations go , read interesting article translation italian magazine si si gets back question jurisdiction episcopal consecrations imply rejection pope 's jurisdiction , would truly constitute schismatic act , justifying excommunication current code canon law problem according traditional theology holy orders , episcopal consecration confer jurisdiction power order ability sacraments jurisdiction must someone else power confer \( pope \) society bishops , knowing traditional theology quite well , take great pains avoid jurisdiction anyone simply confer sacraments require bishop si si article interesting reason pope said novel , post vatican ii idea holy orders according idea , episcopal consecration confer jurisdiction lent article friend , unfortunately , ca n't tell believe quoted new code canon law support idea pope 's thinking point remains great puzzle 's way schism , according traditional catholic theology pope think \? far points regarding nature tradition goes , 's passage question root schismatic act incomplete contradictory notion incomplete , take sufficiently account living character tradition , , second vatican council clearly taught , comes apostles church help holy spirit growth insight realities words passed comes various ways comes study believers ponder things hearts comes intimate sense spiritual realities experience comes preaching received , along right succession , sure truth especially contradictory notion tradition opposes universal church possessed bishop rome body bishops impossible remain faithful tradition breaking bond , person apostle peter , christ entrusted ministry unity church \( papal dei , 2 july 1988 \) seems holy father making two points simplified following vatican council ii happened pope argument either case sufficient prove archbishop lefebvre must wrong , disagrees weak , say least ! would helped clarify things pope addressed archbishop lefebvre 's concerns detail john paul ii 's stand social christ , taught gregory , pius ix , leo , pius xi pius xii , example \? supposed ignore popes said subject \? n't know future hold , powers sspx still talking rome trying straighten things many people would prefer call justified refusal obey justified disobedience even obeying god rather man calling refusal obey obedience puts us sort alice world words mean whatever want mean similarly , schism indicates formal break church pope says schism exists , seems definition exists may pope wrong side break , good reason break exist , shortly healed one deny fact exist \? seems grave danger destroying thing trying reform power papacy good become reconciled pope future , process , destroyed ability use tools church discipline \? 's one thing hold pope misused powers , excommunicated someone wrongly 's something else say excommunication take effect , schism imagination means acts church discipline legal tools , acts whose validity open debate generally liberal catholics problems pope often objected church sanctions , generally admitted sanctions exist opening door people simply ignoring papal decisions , claiming truly obeying , communion excommunicated would seem precisely denial divine right command say defines schism clh
jhpb sarto budd lake nj us \( joseph h buehler \) subject quality catholic liturgy organization none lines 13 tim rolfe writes without active participation know latin , one really beautiful way hear passion 's chanted three chants middle baritone range , jesus chants bass , others directly quoted handled high tenor heard gregorian chant passion good friday liturgy , lord definitely sad 's resigned die poor pitiful creatures killing chant quite beautiful
news cbnewsk att com subject anger organization bell labs lines 31 paul conditt writes case could n't tell , get extremely angry upset see things like instead rationalizing fears phobias , need reaching people aids socially unacceptable diseases whether got disease actions irrelevant still need jesus aaron bryce cardenas \) writes first issue bring anger obvious ly wrong angry \( gal 5 19 20 \) reason , especially extremely angry par hatred jesus every reason angry us putting cross sin , yet prayer forgive father , know n't know obvious speaking acts flesh speaking emotions emotions moral immoral , good bad emotions first step label emotion good bad numb hide true feelings , accept , god accepts us seems paul 's anger accepted plea us refrain passing judgement afflicted disease reach others give \? calling arguments foolish , , avoiding action fear give others bad feeling , 's forgiving \? think , aaron n't quick judge forgiven aids , dealt taken responsibility feelings made appropriate choices action feelings given anger joe moore
ramsey cs laurentian ca \( shawn \) subject online bible bible study organization dept computer science , laurentian university , sudbury , lines 54 apr 15 00 58 10 1993 athos rutgers edu nusunix1 nus sg \( ling wee \) writes hello , bible study acts online bible software would like know background authors various topics articles author people 's new testament need know articles online bible software specifically \( convenience \) want know 1 darby translation \( never heard one \) j n darby one founders plymouth brethren early supporter f f bruce highly approved translation also translated bible several languages 2 young 's literal translation \( also never heard \) fellow young 's concordance , standard reference work , similar strong 's concordance 3 realiability hebrew greek lexicon believe follow standard reference works 4 authors \( denomination etc \) articles topics modules larry pierce \( brethren \) , baptists , think thompson \( chain reference fame \) presbyterian \) 5 realiability treasury scripture knowlege \( never heard \) another standard reference work around decades new version released available christian book 6 commentators , scofield b w johnson wrote scofield reference bible people 's new testament respectively c scofield creator scofield reference bible many people \( \) , study bible notes strongly 7 realiability strong numbers probably accurate strong 's numbers available shawn ramsey cs laurentian ca
cox lambda msfc nasa gov \( sherman cox \) subject sda doctrinal organization nasa msfc lines 21 healta saturn wwc edu \( tammy r healy \) writes article mar 17 02 04 45 1993 athos rutgers edu jodfishe silver ucs indiana edu \( joseph dale fisher \) writes book provided sda entitled seventh day adventist church believes , something like book called 27 basic fundamental beliefs something close number 27 , 30 copy home \( i'm away school \) actually book called seventh day adventists believe 27 beliefs believe printed herald publishing association competition law jungle cooperation law civilization eldridge sherman cox , ii uahcs2 cs uah edu
stovall ficus cs ucla edu \( steven stovall \) subject rebuilding temple \( anybody \? \) organization ucla , computer science department lines 25 b1 ingr com \( todd stevens \) writes chuck petch writes appears nothing stands way rebuilding resuming sacrifices , scriptures indicate happen last days although israeli government give permission start , think hand god holding project ready let happen brothers sisters , time hand redemption drawing near look ! scriptural levitical priesthood resumed \? jews legitimately prove \? mistaken , jewish family names cohen , kahn , etc considered legitimate indicators descent aaron family names levi , , etc considered legitimate indicators descent levi main legal issue purification priesthood , supposed involve finding ashes red last used purpose 2000 years ago steven stovall stovall cs ucla edu \( 310 \) 825
mdbs ms uky edu \( name \) subject tuff christian \? organization university kentucky , dept math sciences lines 63 bissda saturn wwc edu \( dan lawrence bissell \) writes n't think people understand christian certainly see lot churches rather think way life , total sacrafice everything god 's sake loved us enough die save us typical statement irrational brainwashed person bible written male thousands years ago \( holy books \) follow parts think suitable modern life ignore others heaven 's \( ! \) sake n't take literally hey ca n't , god inspires us turn lives 's tuff people n't want , real christian would something strong persevere think easy muslim \? buddhist \? buddha 's commandments 500 yrs older christ 's opinion tougher follow moreover buddha says intrinsically good \( christ 's sinners \) allow distracted meditating awaken \( etc etc \) also concept god buddhism \( opinion atheist buddhist \) awaken easy task stay away eating meat \? sit still think nothing \( meditate \) sometime everyday \? buddhists \( supposed \) pray five times day \? fast month every year \( \) willing give 1 6 th income \? muslims fact think jesus ordinary man \( buddha mohamed \) probably ahead times \( lived \) considering fact christianity young religion \( compared , judaism , , \) also probable bible merely collection borrowed ideas \( good deal trade eastern lands middle east time christ \) perhaps leave crap \( woman created man , helper etc \) aras like weight lifting guitar playing , drums , whatever takes time n't rush one day , christianity whole life going church week , helping poor people box everything time units work time , sports , tv , social life god boxes ever turn tv pat robertson brain washers \( oh boy , act put ! \) 1 800 number turn god seems alive well inside boxes carried us boxes created parting question would become christian indoctrinated parents \? probably never learned religion make comparative study therefore claim brain washed
\( phil \) subject c lewis ok \( ancient books \) organization u west advanced technologies lines 49 article apr 14 03 07 58 1993 athos rutgers edu , mayne ds3 scri fsu edu \( bill mayne \) wrote last sentence ironic , since many readers soc religion christian seem embarrassed apologists josh mcdowell c lewis also expresses rather odd sense history makes think masses day , mostly illiterate , knew rhetoric logic people today \? writings period seem elevated consider cream crop , speak , could read write everyone medieval period knew rules matter uncritically accepting told bill mayne may unfair lewis prominent fallacy attributed liar , lunatic , lord quoted many christians , logical fallacy original context , clh exactly c lewis taken couple pretty severe hits group lately first somebody accusing self righteous unconvincing told christians embarrassed \( well josh mcdowell , comment , never read work \) anyone thinks c lewis self righteous ought read introduction problem pain , , explains wanted publish book anonymously \? although believed argument presenting , want seem presume tell others brave face suffering want people think presenting kind model , anything considered great coward ofm adequately handled question whether ought embarrassed liar lunatic lord argument \( , way , part much bigger discourse \) would like add , far embarrassed lewis , state continual amazement soundness clarity arguments presents phil hey , 're talking phone company , phone company n't opinions kind stuff
ohsu edu ohsu edu \( brown \) subject doctrine god organization oregon health sciences university lines 111 posted general outline personal study doctrine doctrine god persons godhead doctrines scripture , important bible pre eminently revelation god therefore , first objective studying bible know god believe bible teaches three persons godhead \( trinity \) god , father god son lord jesus christ god , holy spirit believe individual persons one nature , meaning identical nature , possessing divine attributes also equally worthy worship , trust , obedience cf matt 28 19 , 2 cor 13 14 john 14 8 , 9 , 16 , 17 ii attributes , characteristics , godhead god 's nature revealed name taken jehovah living god , eternal , unchanging without beginning , without ending cf isa 42 8 b god spirit cf john 4 24 c god love cf 1 john 4 8 , 16 , gracious , merciful , good , faithful , patient , full lovingkindness cf 89 1 , 2 103 8 1 7 god also holy righteous absolutely without sin nature , incapable sinning though , word , action cf ex 15 11 isa 6 3 e god omnipresent \( everywhere present time completeness person \) , omniscient \( knowing , knowing things end beginning , infinitely wise \) , omnipotent \( almighty , sovereign , unlimited power creation \) god infinite presence , wisdom , power conviction work lord day become man centered , people churches know little god believe lord 's work needs god centered , people god need understand god sovereign things affairs nations , lives people , carrying purposes regarding salvation iii works godhead creation three persons godhead active creating , three active sustaining creation , ordering course human affairs \( nations well individual people \) end time cf gen 1 1 , 2 john 1 1 3 col 1 16 17 heb 1 3 b salvation order understand salvation believe absolutely necessary begin god , man three persons godhead , , active salvation 1 god , father salvation originated god members godhead determined eternity past would salvation , conditions people could would saved , even would saved election salvation recognized scripture work god , father cf eph 1 3 4 2 thess 2 13 14 2 christ , son god lord jesus christ , birth virgin mary , came earth accomplish two important works came final complete revelation god , father cf col 1 15 heb 1 1 3 b came provide salvation father chosen death cross , bodily resurrection , present work heaven work salvation completed us lord returns cf rom 5 8 10 1 cor 15 3 4 heb 7 25 , 1 john 3 2 3 holy spirit author scripture , theme christ redemptive work , holy spirit carrying redemptive plan god following ways sin cf john 16 7 11 b \( known bible new birth \) cf john 3 5 8 c believer fulfill work sanctification cf john 14 16 17 seals every believer christ , thus making salvation secure cf eph 1 13 14 e every believer body christ cf cor 12 13 f teaches every believer truth scripture cf john 14 26 g bestows spiritual gifts people god ministry \( cf 1 cor 12 h sin cf gal 5 16 26 living service cf acts 1 8 brown \( internet \) ohsu edu portland oregon
coffey neep wisc edu \( robert l coffey \) subject questions organization univ wisconsin , madison , neep department lines 35 4 exactly lord \? god jesus christ \? john 1 1 says \( nkjv little green gideon someone forced one day \) beginning word , word god , word god word refers jesus christ john declares god jesus one therefore , lord refers also , david psalms refers god heaven coming messiah lord refers god jesus 5 definition truly religious person \? swear curse \? say anything bible \? truly religious people 've known christians greatest christians 've known truly however , answer question bible speaks many places , previous post james good one another psalm 15 lord , may abide \? may dwell holy hill \? walks , works righteousness , speaks truth heart tongue , evil neighbor , take reproach friend whose eyes vile person despised , honors fear lord swears hurt change put money , take bribe innocent things shall never moved rob coffey indeed safest road coffey neep wisc edu hell gradual one \( send mail gentle slope , soft , 'll never read \) without sudden , without , without day meets wrecking ball world shall rejoice 'll lost former home
desiree bradley mindlink bc ca \( desiree bradley \) subject right messiahs organization mind link ! british columbia , canada lines 39 must missed postings waco , david koresh , second coming one tell second coming real thing , unless person claiming obviously insane \? i'm saying david koresh second coming christ could somebody breaks word second coming \? koresh promise would come compound allowed give radio broadcast n't still seems fool people , knowledge bible , seems christians hard jews christ 's day cautious accepting somebody religious authorities n't accept messiah surprised nobody discussed difficulty wanting early recognize second coming , time , wanting believing anybody claims god mark 13 21 one says , 'look , christ ! ' 'look , ! ' believe mark 13 22 false christs false prophets arise show signs wonders , lead astray , possible , elect mark 13 23 take heed told things beforehand mark 13 24 days , tribulation , sun darkened , moon give light , mark 13 25 stars falling heaven , powers heavens shaken mark 13 26 see son man coming clouds great power glory understanding jesus' answer , unlike first coming , veiled , second coming quite 's telling us misled things happen second coming actual second coming make power openly visible way , koresh 's public statement 's clear claiming christ clh
jdt voodoo ca boeing com \( jim tomlinson \( jimt ii \) \) subject agnostic 's question organization bogart buddy , bellevue , wa lines 24 pardon wrong newsgroup would describe agnostic , far i'm sure single , universal supreme , one , surely judged whether lived good lives , striving achieve goodness within power us , complication one best friends become fundamentalist would normally non issue , feels responsibility proselytize \( guess , according faith \) great strain friendship would problem subject n't come , , discussion quickly begins offend us offended call question bedrock beliefs offended feel subscription superstition , circular arguments 'the bible god 's word tells us bible ' question , convince subject better left , preserve \( areas religious beliefs \) great friendship \? convince wo n't try \? thanks advice jim tomlinson 206 865 falling snow bogart project jdt voodoo ca boeing com excellent snow boeing computer services uunet ! bcstec ! voodoo ! jdt anderson gabriel
mprc troi cc rochester edu \( price \) subject phone number wycliffe translators uk organization university rochester rochester , new york lines 14 i'm concerned recent posting wbt sil thought 'd pretty much denounced right wing organization involved ideological manipulation cultural interference , including vietnam south america commission mexican academia denounced 1979 covert political ideological institution used u govt instrument control , regulation , penetration , espionage repression concern group may seen acceptable even praiseworthy readers soc religion christian 's important christians n't immediately accept every christian organization automatically reproach mp
ide ! twelker uunet uu net \( steve twelker \) subject organization interactive development , sf lines 11 i'm compiling bibliography religious perspectives , , , mysticism , , alchemy magic , interested sources others found particularly interesting insightful i'm especially interested medieval works , chemical wedding christian legends please feel free , , send personal opinions , pro con anywhere thanks much stephen twelker twelker ide com
kilroy gboro rowan edu \( dr nancy 's sweetie \) subject certainty arrogance organization rowan college new jersey lines 122 earlier article , explained many people find arrogant christians christians profess absolute beliefs doctrines , many christians insist cannot made mistakes discovering beliefs , amounts saying infallible claiming infallible pretty arrogant , us probably agree short , problem matter good sources , part doctrines beliefs rest thinking reasoning , doctrines suspect long brain involved , possibility error problem writing way loop someone called `rexlex' claimed way loop , bother explain , preferring instead paraphrase , ramble wittgenstein , say conclusion argument leads relativism explained , cannot reject argument false dislike leads facts change dislike `rexlex' wrote disagree dr nancy 's sweetie 's conclusion taken fruition leads relativism leads however , first year philosophy student explain , `rexlex' written constitute refutation said like wrote done nothing dispute two sentences 's post seemed relevant point hand thing true truth real , experienced verifiable dispute truths verified experience , example , direct experience adding numbers n't claim infallible fact remember sums incorrectly claim direct experience reasoning numbers however , go past experiencing things start reasoning , much ground point earlier article human brains infested sin , trusted limited circumstances god 's revelation absolute thing far get \? god 's revelation stops , reasoning begins , possibility error appears example , let 's suppose modern bible translations include perfect rendering jesus words last supper , jesus said , exactly , body 'll presume said totally without error absolutely true certain \? much moment stops speaking , people start interpreting , possibility error appears mean literally \? record elaborated words thinking tran con \? n't say interpret passage using brains think reason draw conclusions know brains perfect thinking often leads us wrong \( something us direct experience 8 \) anyone believe reasoning knows fallible lead perfect conclusions \? , given assumptions example , certain jesus said body beyond , start making doctrines using brains reason christ revealed , get trouble unless infallible , things certain extent doctrines rely fallible human thinking , cannot certain problem seeming arrogant non christians around us know human beings make mistakes , surely know believe infallible , christians speak believe reasoning never lead astray implicitly claim infallible non christians around us rarely believe implicit claim witnessing hardly going work person talking believes either foolish recognise limits , intentionally trying cover think would far better say things certain things confident example , might say know sin , sin something directly experience things , whether based reasoning scripture extra biblical thinking , labled infallible say confident , ready explain reasoning , far aware , none us infallible speaking acting thinking flawless ridiculous `rexlex' suggested people read silent , francis schaeffer n't think highly , think mr schaeffer grossly overrated many evangelical christians somebody else might like , though , n't let opinion stop reading someone interested opinion , 'd suggest certainty , ludwig wittgenstein darren f provine kilroy gboro rowan edu substantial number talk religion misc readers read wittgenstein , 60 postings would disappear \( understood wittgenstein , 98 would disappear \) \) michael l siemon
db7n andrew cmu edu \( andrew byler \) subject sabbath admissions 5of5 organization freshman , civil engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 34 arguments concerning sabbath ought make point pretty clear anyone outside catholic orthodox monophysite churches worship saturday really sola scriptura otherwise , following law put effect church , really recognize power chruch andy byler note nothing faq said anything church establishing changing law argument sabbath part ceremonial law , like rest ceremonial law binding christians argument based paul 's letters , acts , general sense , jesus' teachings , people argue scripture shows worship occuring sunday , paul endorsing understand points disputed , want go around dispute one time point i'm making arguments right , backing claim scripture accepting principle sola scriptura commit us obeying entire jewish law acts 15 paul 's letters quite clear think even sda 's accept disagreement bible would us place line way , protestants give authority church , matters dictated god 's churches free determine , church , etc accept sabbath binding christians , day worship falls category items individual christians \( since worship nature group activity \) churches free decide clh
jek cu nih gov subject thinking heaven lines 20 james sledd asks 1 nature eternal life \? 2 mortals locked space time conceive \? 2a best metaphor analogy , best metaphor \? c lewis 's essay weight glory deals question recommend enthusiastically might also read chapter heaven book problem pain gives fictional treatment book great divorce found helpful might also helped treatment dante 's divine comedy heaven occupies last third poem , cannot imagine reading beginning urge use translation dorothy l sayers , available penguin , james kiefer
jemurray magnus acs ohio state edu \( john e murray \) subject quality catholic liturgy organization ohio state university lines 20 appreciated follow ups replies earlier query one reply , lost , suggested several parishes new york good masses , one corpus christi downtown manhattan coincidence , last week 's america , national magazine , carried interview fr myles bourke , corpus christi 's pastor emeritus fr bourke also directed nt translation new american bible noted certain practices introduced mass manner atmosphere , sometimes , trivialized liturgy note parents' parish easter , helium filled balloons distributed , apparently aid understanding word risen kiddie mass , either , well attended 11 00 mass wanted note generous spirit behind replies newsgroup whole offers generally moderate \( perhaps 's moderated \) conversation topics often lead people extreme behavior \( including \) sometimes people go top , remarkable thing exception , think benefits doubt generally granted seems christian \? john murray
ata hfsi hfsi com \( john ata \) subject really rise \? \? \? reply news opl com organization hfsi lines 51 article apr 21 03 26 43 1993 1373 geneva rutgers edu parkin eng sun com writes desperately wanted jewish people accept messiah crucification god could jesus pray cup pass weakness never many men women given lives country noble causes jesus less knew crucification god god 's jewish people accept jesus messiah kingdom heaven established earth jesus 's head \( like jewish people expected \) happened 2000 years ago imagine assume jesus 's plea father let cup pass , merely plea escape death \? look jesus garden , see man god , life presense father result , knew every detail death long agony garden hour approached , felt abandoned father , presense diminishing passing minute addition , brought jesus 's attention \( betrayal judas probably big impact \) suffering would avail many people , especially would reject , future truly believe majority jesus 's suffering mental spiritual , physical portion tip btw , know john 's account jesus becomming earthly king john joh 6 14 people saw miraculous sign jesus , began say , surely prophet come world joh 6 15 jesus , knowing intended come make king force , withdrew mountain seem like man would regret becoming earthly king , jesus knew mission redeem \( jew gentile \) people establish kingdom hearts would believe utterly mistaken , much jesus 's dismay , earthly kingdom knew father 's followed even darkness passion john g ata technical consultant internet ata hfsi com , inc uucp uunet ! hfsi ! ata 7900 drive ms 601 voice \( 703 \) 827 mclean , va 22102 fax \( 703 \) 827
salaris niblick ecn purdue edu \( rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrabbits \) subject hell 2 black sabbath organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 28 article apr 22 00 57 03 1993 geneva rutgers edu , jprzybyl skidmore edu \( jennifer \) writes hey may wrong , n't jeff fenholt part black sabbath \? 's major brother christ totally changed life around , wife go tours singing , witnessing , spreading gospel christ may wrong black sabbath , know similar band n't particular group jeff fenholt claims black sabbath never ever musician band st louis several months back poster saw christian bookstore frequent really turned addressed homosexuals , prostitutes , drug addicts , alcoholics , something like well , showed long hair black leather jacket would felt little pre judged orthodox christian , slightly insulted lumped together drug addicts alcoholics oh yes , suppose since drink good german beer makes alcoholic ! steven c salaris 're lot dangerous 2 live crew salaris wustl edu stupid use foul language ideas philosophy geoff tate queensryche
rayssd ! esther uunet uu net \( esther paris \) subject harrassed work , could use prayers reply esther demand ed ray com organization equipment division , marlboro , lines 110 news feed broken n't received new news 243 hours \( 10 days \) , reply , please send private email address esther demand ed ray com set reply line address n't know work depends upon software , generally would n't expect reply cause email cc sent addition posting 'll probably need something specific , vary depending upon news software clh rate , need support \( much thanks jayne k already supporting kind words prayers ! \) 've working company eight years various engineering jobs i'm female yesterday counted realized seven different occasions 've sexually harrassed company seven times eight years yesterday recent one someone left x rated photo nude woman desk drawer i'm really upset suppose could worse could man sex sheep something note know someone 's idea innocent joke , went someone 's sick idea act emotional terrorism \( worked ! \) dreaded coming back work today boss comes ask kind question , n't know answer take military specification shelf look answer , falls picture man sex sheep \? generally bible desk occasional inspiration open corinthians find picture la north american man boy love association \? want throw thinking stuff lock desk , ca n't lock every book office ca n't trust someone wo n't shove something briefcase coat pocket i'm looking go home find picture , threat , note someone wants body make worse , entire department went lunch yesterday treat marvelous secretary lunch appointed hour leaving 11 30 working another building wanted go lunch returned 11 25 , find ever single person already left lunch left 11 15 one could bothered call building , even though number posted , came back department looked like neutron bomb gone sole survivor , despite fact everyone knew bad felt naked woman left desk drawer need prayers ca n't stop crying deeply wounded 's ridiculous feel like i'm kind sub human piece garbage people reduce sisters simply sex organs sex act feel like i'm sub human piece garbage 's worthy simple phone call saying 're leaving mary 's lunch little early bob get back big 1 00 meeting please pray either go away , miraculously turned something positive please pray whoever torturing stop , find healing please pray healed latest wound \( falls top whole slew wounds \) please pray find new job place corporate culture best prevent harrassment happening first place , swiftly acts appropriately something occurs despite best precautions \( company , opinion , pretty words sexual harrassment n't tolerated get right , one female engineer touched , left threatening notes , left pictures , spoken , etc , seven times eight years place \? pretty words company good i'm terrified healing latest assault \) please pray n't turn 's bad habit ignore go away , 're worth anyone 's time n't go talking anyone , 're right , sub human piece garbage deserve treated way , object , prostitute mind company ca n't others expect prostitute body well \? , makes think women n't possessions , nothing sex organs ability perform sex act \? kind thinking one major episode please pray thoughts n't come head stay , triggering depression please pray latest trauma n't come god way , wound like invitation deeper connection god , 's also possible trigger spiritual crisis separate one mentally god \( know god n't drop loving hand , 's awfully easy walk edge hand , look , think i'm falling forget god 's still holding \) although probably n't entirely appropriate newsgroup , really use kind loving support provide reason hope good mr moderator allows latest indulgence , 's allowed thermometer note , wall topics thanks advance everyone support prayers peace , esther esther paris , equipment div , marlboro , esther demand ed ray com esteem , nothing large enough please , small fingers john , lost senses ,
jhpb sarto budd lake nj us \( joseph h buehler \) subject sspx schism \? organization none lines 138 article apr 20 03 03 06 1993 geneva rutgers edu shellgate ! llo uu4 psi com \( larry l overacker \) writes ask would echo question i'm trying contentious assuming pope universal jurisdiction authority , authority rely upon decisions \? prevents choosing doctrine like saying papal disagreement error resolved time \? especially true , since councils bishops basically stood pope ultimate question traditional theology church thing possible resist pope departure traditional doctrine church commands authority conflict tradition , commands must view conflict could happen major way god would never allow hair splitting situation develop would complex people figure n't view present situation church anything extremely complicated run list happened last 30 years catholic church , impartial observer appears much lies heart matter disagreements tradition tradition , also authority discipline problems stem general widespread ignorance catholic faith , opinion catholics know zilch catholic faith leaves wide open destruction erring bishops 's basically reformation part ii even question mind respects catholic church currently trampled upon catholic hierarchy could go listing shocking things hour , probably take situation , brazil , example i'm reading book happened vatican council ii bishop , antonio de castro mayer , never introduced changes followed wake vatican ii kept traditional mass , old , etc made sure people knew faith , catholic theology obedience , , etc people coming well , one day order came rome retirement came pope sick bishop de castro mayer waited pope recovered , inquired whether command pope really wanted , something liberal commanded absence pope confirmed decision good bishop retired injustice followed completely incredible new bishop installed proceeded expel bishop de castro mayer 's clergy churches , refused celebrate new mass new bishop would visit parish , celebrate new mass people would promptly walk church en masse bishop enraged usually resorted help secular authorities eject priest church priests would start building new churches people completely behind old parishes new mass , bishop desired virtually prime motivation completely illegal , according canon law priest penalized way saying traditional mass , legislation enacted pope saint pius v obligation say new mass process , people , private individuals , including civil authorities , constantly sending letters rome something new bishop nothing ever done help ever arrived rome eventually 37 priests kicked , 40 , 000 people question supporters sspx way positions respect church reforms could change conformed pope \? \( assuming pope 's position change leaders sspx n't jointly make choice \) , appears claiming infallible teaching authority adopt view i'm wrong , can't wrong , 's way 'll change mind , must change , 've either left catholic church left pope defines certain things ex cathedra , would end controversy process well understood catholic theology , anyone n't go along instant non catholic problem people appreciate going catholic world knew faith , bishops , would shocked ! sould argue second coming real traditional teaching church simple matter east west would separated 900 years n't case catholic church massive body traditional teaching popes last 150 years especially relevant question traditional doctrine thought teaching church allow error teachings regarding faith morals even short term ` may wrong , i'm roman catholic \) 's heresy , less although done great job since reformation , last 30 years seen many errors spread 's pitiful infallibility rests pope , church whole short term , pope , large sections church go astray fact , 's usually happens major heresy large sections church go astray \( pope historically much reliable \) everything always come back long run would effect pope making ex cathedra statement regarding sspx situation \? would honored \? , get around formal doctrine infallibility \? , i'm trying contentions , i'm trying understand since i'm orthodox , 've got real vested interest outcome , one way yes , would honored infallibility infallibility going define \? new mass better expression catholic faith old \? sex education catholic schools wonderful \? religions wonderful except professed popes prior vatican ii \? command legitimate sspx view pope 's commands legitimate \? slippery slope really start studying major catholic theologians last 300 years everything well spelled west critical thought , remember \? 's catholic theologians busy centuries
news cbnewsk att com subject two people married god 's eyes \? organization bell labs lines 23 article apr 16 23 15 03 1993 1820 geneva rutgers edu mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) writes article apr 14 03 07 21 1993 athos rutgers edu randerso acad1 sahs uth tmc edu \( robert anderson \) writes would like get opinions exactly engaged couple become married god 's eyes \? unwilling go public marriage ceremony , say willing actually done let 's distinguish real problems \( like stranded desert island \) excuses \( waiting 's brother come back army ceremony \) disagree people marry commit fully life partners , married ceremony may assist emphasizing depth commitment , nothing god knows hearts knows two committed one , knows fears delusions keep us fully giving another way see , 'd living together marriage somewhere 10 100 years anyone knew marriage really existed , god knows n't think god keeps joe moore
wagner grace math uh edu \( david wagner \) subject certainty arrogance organization uh dept math lines 162 darren dr nancy 's sweetie kilroy gboro rowan edu writes darren earlier article , explained many people find darren arrogant christians christians profess darren absolute certainty beliefs doctrines darren short , problem matter good sources darren , part doctrines beliefs rest darren thinking reasoning , doctrines suspect point darren raises lutheran viewpoint reason gift god , also infected sin yet reject reason entirely neither , think , darren need reason , darren pointed , comprehend god 's revelation bible reason alone sufficient comprehend believe word need , first foremost , faith sinful mind hostile god submit god 's law , \( romans 8 7 \) luther accepted scripture sole means revelation \( sola scriptura \) , accepted necessity use reason \( faith \) comprehending revelation yet luther also said , regarding baptism , mad reason rushes forth , , baptism like works , regards worthless \( large catechism , fourth part , baptism \) make matters complicated , luther sort theologian many people would describe 've seen described theologian might conclude , given observations , luther inconsistent mad surely least come conclusion might useful recall jesus also called mad peter felt compelled defend apostles charge pentecost christians ought careful rejecting luther \( others \) mad rather , imitate bereans , examined scriptures every day see paul said true \( acts 17 11 \) basis confidence luther , peter , paul , many others preached gospel reason , faith holy spirit faith divorced reason , faith guides , informs , uses reason spirit enables us know truth proclaim boldly god want us preach message think jesus might risen dead rather know redeemer lives ! \( job 19 25 \) christian side pilate saying truth \? rather follows christ , said , fact , reason born , came world , testify truth everyone side truth listens \( john 18 37 \) know truth god promised us know truth jesus said , hold teachings , really disciples know truth , truth set free \( john 8 31 , 32 \) proverbs urge us buy truth , sell \( pr 23 23 \) psalmist prayed word truth mouth \( ps 119 43 \) evidently believed word truth fact yet indeed appear arrogant claim truth motivated self glorification present truth teachings scripture , revealed spirit , invention , stand ready proved wrong basis scripture , luther , arrogant , humble humbly trust god 's promise truth , trust promise forgiveness rexlex god 's revelation rexlex absolute thing darren far get \? god 's revelation stops , darren reasoning begins , possibility error appears agree must make distinction clear teachings scripture , products reason even reasoning based scripture however think would draw line distinction \) less would darren example , let 's suppose modern bible translations darren include perfect rendering jesus words last supper , darren jesus said , exactly , body darren 'll presume said totally without error darren absolutely true certain \? much darren moment stops speaking , people start darren interpreting , possibility error appears mean darren literally \? record darren elaborated words thinking tran con darren substantiation \? n't say darren almost point making lutheran statement lord 's supper lutheran approach say jesus said , body , believe interpretations rejected simply taught scripture recall jesus' words stand alone subject also paul 's words 1 corinthians 11 17 34 , passed us , received lord particular said , whenever eat bread drink cup , proclaim lord 's death comes words believe bread eat lord 's supper really bread \( well lord 's body \) senses fact tell us prove tran substantiation false \? suppose someone could say paul spoke metaphorically lord 's body bread , simply way body appears eat thought found nowhere scripture reject thus primary reason rejecting tran substantiation prove false , simply found scripture side remark 've told lutheran doctrine real presence con substantiation non lutherans told tend use word almost think used professors comparative religion , need labels compare catholic , lutheran reformed teachings lord 's supper almost every church wants call teaching real presence traditional teaching church end side remark darren christians speak believe reasoning darren never lead astray implicitly claim darren infallible non christians around us rarely believe darren implicit claim witnessing hardly going work darren person talking believes either darren foolish recognise limits , intentionally trying darren cover precisely christians rely witnessing far better take approach , 'd like show scripture says decide whether believe darren `rexlex' suggested people read darren silent , francis schaeffer n't think highly darren , think mr schaeffer grossly overrated many darren evangelical christians somebody else might like , though , darren n't let opinion stop reading darren someone interested opinion , 'd suggest darren certainty , ludwig wittgenstein long 're trading references , 'd like suggest dr becker 's paperback , foolishness god place reason lutheran theology , published northwestern publishing house book based becker 's doctoral thesis university chicago david wagner might , power , confessional lutheran spirit , says lord almighty zechariah 4 6
drt athena mit edu \( david r tucker \) subject question jesus alone , oneness organization massachusetts institute technology lines 52 article apr 21 03 26 22 1993 geneva rutgers edu , bjorn b larsen delab sintef \( 369 \) writes anybody tell basic reasons holding belief jesus \? vice versa foundations trinity \? bjorn 'd love know jesus proponents would answer questions like father jesus keeps referring \? call son \? pray father , \? emphasize father 's , \? , kind example \? follow \? says return father , going \? says order , holy spirit might come , might \? claims coming holy spirit blessing 's worth leaving us returning father , mean holy spirit \? n't best known christian prayer begin saviour , art heaven , rather father \? answers questions even plausible \? \( entertaining queries left exercise reader \) drt david r tucker drt athena mit edu may misunderstanding terms believe jesus originally context baptism folks believe baptism done formula mentioning jesus , rather father , son , holy spirit may doctrinal implications , far know mean folks deny existence divinity father i'm right one describe theology , fact think may several , including would called monophysite arian \( two rather different views \) , well beliefs probably consistent trinitarian standards , wo n't use trinitarian language misunderstand simply biblical clh
petch gvg47 gvg tek com \( chuck \) subject daily verse lines 6 lord descend heaven shout , voice archangel , trumpet god dead christ rise first alive remain caught together meet lord air thus shall always lord 1 thessalonians 4 16 17
violet uwaterloo ca \( marc \) subject god shaped hole \( accepting jeesus heart \) organization university waterloo lines 17 article apr 20 03 03 15 1993 geneva rutgers edu , fraseraj dcs glasgow ac uk \( andrew j fraser \) writes several people involved trying figure first used phrase god shaped hole clh god shaped vacuum us \( something effect \) generally attributed blaise pascal believe another way expressing basic truth things created \( emphasis mine \) col 1 16 , rev 4 11 created god , naturally vacuum god fact , first chapter brings status christ , life , , vacuum filled marc violet uwaterloo ca
mnhcc cunyvm bitnet \( marty helgesen \) subject radio free \( dungeons dragons author 's view organization city university new york lines 18 recent discussion dungeons dragons role playing games since lot crossover science fiction fantasy fans , mention editor publisher radio free , christian oriented science fiction christian magazine special interest science fiction science fiction special interest christianity major topic discussion come letters \( , arguments whether satanic people think likely reading rft \) anyway , working april issue send sample copy reader soc religion christian requests printed paper , requests include snail mail address marty helgesen bitnet mnhcc cunyvm internet mnhcc cunyvm cuny edu thing hypothetical situation \?
sfp lemur cit cornell edu \( sheila patterson \) subject right messiahs organization cornell university cit lines 14 jesus n't god \? jesus returns people may miss \? version bible read mike \? jesus god incarnate \( flesh \) jesus said , 'i father one ' jesus taken heaven 40 day post resurrection stint angels assured apostles jesus would return way everyone see coming 's jesus warned many would come claiming would know jesus actually returns two large parts faith definitely hit nerve \) sheila patterson , cit cr technical support cornell university ithaca , ny
nextwork rose hulman edu \( jeffrey little \) subject revelations babylon \? reply nextwork rose hulman edu \( jeffrey little \) organization computer science department rose hulman lines 38 article apr 21 03 25 41 1993 1322 geneva rutgers edu jbuddenberg vax cns muskingum edu \( jimmy buddenberg \) writes hello bible study \( college \) revelations pretty good far getting sort reasonable interpretation chapters 17 18 talk woman beast fall babylon believe beast antichrist \( may differ seems obvious \) woman represents babylon stands rome roman catholic church views interpretation \? falling babylon chapter 18 babylon chapter 17 \? catholic church \? hate step toes thanks interesting interpretation revelation 17 18 given evangelist david wilkerson saying totally agree interpretation , certainly believable good food thought interprets babylon revelation 17 18 none good old u 's right , america supports claim several ways babylon revelation world leader trade commerce , whole world wept babylon fell american dollar , despite japanese success 20th century , still sought currency world u destroyed , would n't whole world mourn \? bible also talks babylon home , sin , adultery \( paraphrasing , course \) babylon 's sin affected , say , infected , whole world n't take much looking see u state moral decay n't american culture hollywood spread feels good mentality world think , though , mr wilkerson uses strongest argument fact revelation calls babylon babylon great powerful nation earth matter dissatisfied state country , n't think would much trouble agreeing u still powerful nation earth , interpretation necessarily , find worthy consideration jeffrey little
jsledd ssdc sas upenn edu \( james sledd \) subject afterlife organization social science computing lines 23 another way looking die released arc time , able comprehend lives visit moment time sequentially , able alter actions thoughts feelings life perspective , posit direct knowledge god , able recognize moment time wether ought experience lived life far god eternal torment lived life grace , eternal joy resurrection body comes physical present forms , knowledge present forms fully souls aside restricted time present form , would opt immortality \? james sledd think n dimensions listen voice god
eos ncsu edu \( christopher \) subject part2 reply eos ncsu edu \( christopher \) organization north carolina state university , project eos lines 52 hello , i'm back would first like thank every person sent response \( positive negative one \) read every letter thought one ! ! got sorts responses , marry nothing ever reading bible lot prayer , decided sent letter today first , told really serious moving away home another state would anything get nc told tried find new stores planning built would n't tell marraige comment \( i'm gonna call proposal , cause still n't know total joke \) less said marry \? \? well , get transferred nc first 'll talk \) \) hopefully , said could interpreted either way needless say , lot praying done lot reading marraige bible dead serious getting married would n't yet simply b c \( far know point \) christian would n't work w god marraige well figure god go 's kept us touch 10 years handle one god wants happen , happen ! nc june relatives 'll get see 'll get letter know look forward guess wait pray decided tell folks i'm totally sure going ask everyone wrote please keep situation prayers finally , would like thank everyone wrote anything else email address one week please tell want i'm curious folks think thanx chris
news cbnewsk att com subject agnostic 's question organization bell labs lines 42 article apr 17 01 11 16 1993 geneva rutgers edu jdt voodoo ca boeing com \( jim tomlinson \( jimt ii \) \) writes pardon wrong newsgroup would describe agnostic , far i'm sure single , universal supreme , one , surely judged whether lived good lives , striving achieve goodness within power us , complication one best friends become fundamentalist would normally non issue , feels responsibility proselytize \( guess , according faith \) great strain friendship sorry disappoint , i'm afraid friendship danger perhaps examine good friend , unwilling accept part friends life \? call question faith \? friend changed , found something fills need life need decide still friend , whether accommodate new life sounds criticizing fundamental belief bible , yet quick reveal fundamental belief superstition perhaps knew least took seriously , least took interest light found , least tried understand become special part life , could together decide become fundamentalists , respect others differences remain friends , part ways maybe even stuck , could help un convert course , go attitude surely see intentions begin resent happen person tolerant fundamentalists , know idea simple black white approach life appealing n't happen share beliefs fundamentalists , offended good conversations witnesses came door n't switch beliefs , home maybe need friendly face invite somewhere , witnesses provide wonderful service may conditioned believe religion unimportant witnessing obnoxious , \? afraid might converted become one , swept fundamentalism , become friendship 's two way street must respect friend , , including beliefs , want friendship continue joe moore
news cbnewsk att com subject bible unsuitable new christians organization bell labs lines 8 true also read 2 peter 3 16 peter warns scriptures often hard understand learned subject joe moore
holfeltz lstc2vm stortek com subject need book organization storagetek sw engineering lines 37 article apr 14 03 08 18 1993 athos rutgers edu bassili cs arizona edu \( z bassili \) writes appreciate anyone point good books dead sea scrolls qumran thanks advance please reply e mail bassili cs arizona edu ok boys girls , hang go ! christ 's eternal gospel robinson robinson dead sea scrolls nt ws james rh maccabees rh dead sea scrolls uncovered wise dead sea scrolls deception leigh jesus riddle dead sea scrolls b jesus scroll joyce happy reading welcome aboard poor stranger say , strange one strange land , disclaimer employer 's opinion probably 's either mine , authorized ! try roger holfeltz stortek com note list covers quite variety views 's probably good one want read one book , beware couple books list represent views , shall say , unusual clh
simon monu6 cc monash edu au subject saint story st aloysius gonzaga organization monash university , melb , australia lines 113 heres story saint people might like read got morning star , posting permission editor saint aloysius gonzaga patron youth gonzaga high aspirations son , prince wanted become famous , brave honoured soldier , must carry great family name gonzaga course , become far famous , brave honoured father could ever imagined though manner expected saint mother woman received immense joy praying god meditating divine mysteries life lord little time pleasures life saint aloysius grew , began resemble mother father saint aloysius learned numerous expressions father 's soldiers , moment discovered vulgar , shock shows immense hatred sin \( example us contempt must sin \) time first holy communion \( received archbishop milan , charles , became great saint \) , con purity god asked blessed virgin protect innocence life wanted share lord 's suffering show reciprocal love started denying passions avoided eating finest foods , wearing best clothes , would put pieces wood bed order love god early teens father sent \( younger brother \) court spanish king , phillip 11 , set make best mixed well people royal court , handsome , polite , intelligent always something interesting say long time , great soldier saint , saint , founded society jesus \( \) towards saint aloysius 12 began finally told father , flew rage forbade son become priest short time , father sent great cities order tempted away priesthood , even trials , saint aloysius grew desire religious life strengthened virtue purity plans obviously failing , con son obey forget foolish ness \? , father , reply leave sight n't return change mind ! tears eyes , saint left room pray tell lord , \? tell ! tell ! done several times , time seen rushed last brought proud man senses lord wants , lord gave consent son become years \( end sixteenth century \) , ble epidemic broke rome hospitals full could house , opened saint could hospitals , particularly prepare dying holy death saint aloysius contracted plague carrying nursing sick three months lay burning fever finally , june 21st , , gave soul lord gazing let us invoke saint aloysius patron imitate humility , purity confidence prayer saint aloysius gonzaga , pray us brendan arthur prayer necessary person consecrated service others sword soldier god bless simon lines 106 simon p shields programmer rey ! ! monash university college ph 61 51 226 357 rd churchill fax 61 51 226 300
po cwru edu \( richard j szanto \) subject two people married god 's eyes \? reply po cwru edu \( richard j szanto \) organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 27 previous article , randerso acad1 sahs uth tmc edu \( robert anderson \) says would like get opinions exactly engaged couple become married god 's eyes \? say two publically announced plans marry , made vows god , unswervingly committed one another \( realize subjective qualifier \) married joined god 's sight discussed girlfriend often consider married , though legally neither us people sexually , although sexual relations decided marry eventually financial distance reasons , legally married another year half , consider married life god 's eyes faith strong relationship , 4 years , full joy marry church first , however , must find church \( living new area marry , need find new church community \) anyway , feel two people commit marriage god , married bound commitment rick szanto polk speakers rock computer engineer mac 's suck \( nothing personal \) case western zeta psi rules reserve university
rick granberry pts mot com \( rick granberry \) subject pastoral authority reply rick granberry pts mot com \( rick granberry \) organization motorola paging systems group lines 17 controversy denomination authority vested pastor still forming opinion opinions , references , much , used general reference , would exclude responses different denominations based biblical teachings , understand church independent , protestant likely much different follow ecclesiastical authority church may need discuss roles elders thanks replies answer fool according folly , lest thou also like unto answer fool according folly , lest wise conceit \( proverbs 26 4 5 \)
tbrent ecn purdue edu \( timothy j brent \) subject going hell \? organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 12 stated consider atheist , definitely believe christian god recent discussion atheists hell , combined post another group \( effect 'you go hell' \) interested consensus god might judge men catholic , told jew , buddhist , etc might go heaven , obviously people believe even see atheists pagans \( assume would lumped category \) hellbound know believe god judge , ask , opinions thanks , tim
kilroy gboro rowan edu subject certainty arrogance lines 112 last article included quote substantial number talk religion misc readers read wittgenstein , 60 postings would disappear \( understood wittgenstein , 98 would disappear \) \) michael l siemon someone called wrote quote seems little arrogant , n't think \? convention called , looks like \) supposed look like sideways smiley face , indicates preceding comment supposed funny , 'll note participated talk religion misc five years 'd say mr siemon far 8 \) meat reply , mr boundary serves excellent example meant way loop wrote human brains infested sin , trusted limited circumstances reply , mr boundary wrote would beg differ properly formed conscience trusted virtually time moves problem back one level tell conscience properly formed \? way tell capable judging formed ness conscience words , sure conscience assume evaluation trusted assuming conclusions saves lot time , 'll grant , 's valid way reasoning unless infallible , judgements thinking cannot certain therefore , possible certain conscience \( whatever supposed mean \) mr boundary gives another paradigm example problem hit purpose church necessity infallible interpreter divine revelation without church , christianity would nothing bunch little divisive sects church infallible interpreter divine revelation \? know \? presumably , believe argument another know argument contains mistakes \? write therefore , although minds finite susceptible error , competence arriving inductive insights gives confidence ability distinguish true true , even areas subject experimental method huge difference ability distinguish true confident lot things , absolute certainty long way discussion arrogance claiming absolutely certain \( really , go check subject line \) saying absolutely certain significantly different saying confident say confident , invites people ask except limited circumstances , say absolutely certain , invites people dismiss someone idea yet meet anyone believed infallible source truth would admit possibility errors reasoning every last one claimed infallible result convince idea going darren f provine kilroy gboro rowan edu particular discussion may entirely relevant original criticism get feeling original poster regarded arrogant idea right wrong answers religion , difference eternal consequences say think hell least significant danger ending , admit say reasoning processes used reach fallible thus least principle could wrong basic facts clearly enough taught bible think 's unlikely i'm \( order get level confidence , 've tried frame statement sufficiently carefully number controversial issues n't , example said non christians definitely end hell , n't attempted describe hell detail \) feeling view going regarded arrogant intolerant even though acknowledge i'm fallible 's chance i'm wrong n't get wrong think lot genuinely arrogant christians , often criticism us justified least cases think criticisms constitute blaming messenger universe set eternal consequences certain decisions , 's fault i'm telling way think may think god immoral setting things way 's one critiques christianity find difficult respond 's arrogance tell think truth clh
stephen mont cs missouri edu \( stephen montgomery smith \) subject latest branch davidians organization university missouri lines 63 apr 22 00 55 06 1993 2048 geneva rutgers edu aaron binah cc brandeis edu \( scott aaron \) writes article apr 20 03 02 42 1993 geneva rutgers edu , conditt tsd arlut utexas edu \( paul conditt \) wrote think 's really sad many people put faith mere man , even claim son god , prophet 'll pose question 's got thinking distinguishes true religion cults \( i'm speaking generally , christianity \) \? jerry good morning america tuesday ostensibly answer question basically , said true religion follows message whereas cult follows person , , christianity cult message christianity person jesus distinguishes , example , branch davidian cult presbyterian church \? doctrinal differences n't answer question , imho , n't use answer far see , one big differences davidians christians follow sometimes tried put feet one jesus 's disciples basically , gave lot career , possibly family , well , whole bunch , follow jesus difference \? quite plain jesus good david koresh problem , think , try legislate good bad terms principles instance , thousands laws u governing legal often , hard bring people justice , possible find legal way could trust judges , could tell administer justice fairly , justice would followed since judges n't always get right , complicated system involving precedent bunches stuff attempt make imperfect \( justice man \) something perfect hear justice system u tells quite opposite true also problem tend judge presentation material presented might consider ranting christian bad , eloquent person another religion good goes along american desire protect constitution costs , even allows people bad things think message important man presenting false message , even ever ever mild mannered , man performing tremendous disservice know rambling guess trying say n't looking principles tell us davidians got wrong wrong follow worship person important choose right person simple choose jesus , got right choose anyone else , got wrong \? jesus begotten son god , nobody else jesus without sin , nobody else stephen
jsledd ssdc sas upenn edu \( james sledd \) subject serbian genocide work god \? organization social science computing lines 13 serbs work god \? hmm 've wondering anyone would ever ask question , governments united states europe moving end ethnic cleansing serbs targets muslims \? god use following accomplish tasks \? esp tasks \? james sledd cute sig i'm working
conditt tsd arlut utexas edu \( paul conditt \) subject goodbye , forever organization applied research laboratories , university texas austin lines 46 praise god ! i'm writing everyone inform accepted doctor psychology program fuller theological seminary pasadena , ca 've working long hard try get said many hours prayer i'm excited opportunity , also nervous 'd appreciate prayers readers group preparation school summer career graduate student 'd also appreciate information readers group might fuller , pasadena , california general , like good places fun , good churches check , anything else might good know also , anyone knows foundations might funding scholarship money available , please let know ! course , wish make personal contribution \) contract current job end april 'll taking couple classes ut summer 'll moving pasadena hopefully , 'll able get net access next fall , although fuller n't 've enjoyed interesting discussions commend everyone earnest search please god thanks moderator providing wonderful service great job running news group may god bless con , mi amigas paul paul conditt internet conditt titan tsd arlut utexas edu applied research phone \( 512 \) 835 fax \( 512 \) 835 laboratories fedex 10000 road , austin , texas university texas postal p box , austin , texas austin , texas wonderful place texas live ttt ttt ttt ttt texas tech lady raiders tt ttt tt 1992 93 champions ttt 1992 93 ncaa national champions ttt
reedr cgsvax claremont edu subject really rise \? \? \? organization claremont graduate school lines 9 article apr 21 03 24 13 1993 geneva rutgers edu , gt7122b prism gatech edu \( boundary \) writes material ultimately shows experience , modern jew known proselytism rabbi told theres tradition someone wanted convert judaism turned away three times continue accepted
jcj tellabs com \( jcj \) subject losing temper christian trait organization huh \? whuzzat \? lines 12 sheila patterson writes always suspected human \) desire like christ often causes christians critical christians 'd like remind people fig tree jesus driving money et al temple think two instances christ showing anger \( part human side \) jeff johnson jcj tellabs com
revdak netcom com \( andrew kille \) subject maybe \? \? \? \? \? organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 14 qualms postings like might want engage bit conversation joel someone n't expect cards clh 'd suggest qualms order without knowing anything situation , impossible evaluate writing folks check , others zeal time may imho , requests nature made oneself someone knows approves idea otherwise , intrusive disrespectful individual revdak netcom com
eskimo com \( jerry kaufman \) subject prayers advice requested family problem organization eskimo north \( 206 \) ever lines 11 cloak god 's sustaining abiding love pray , pray , pray pray brother , assume godly role pray sister law , ever driving separate brother rest family healed pray god give peace knowledge may able 'fix' description would appear require devine intervention , realization brother responsibilities seek godly counsel pastor , spiritually mature believer know always , give direction call
weaver chdasic sps mot com \( dave weaver \) subject help lines 44 prior article , lmvec westminster ac uk \( william hargreaves \) writes opinion saved faith alone \( \) taught romans , square mind teachings james conjunction lukewarm christian 'spat out' agree good works role somewhere , generally find one two camps \( 1 \) faith works salvation \( 2 \) faith salvation works either \( 1 \) works required salvation , \( 2 \) faith inevitably result good works also opinion salvation faith alone , based ephesians 2 romans 3 21 31 also conclude james 2 , read context , teaching bullet \( 2 \) james speaks justification , would claim speaking god declaring believing sinner innocent sight \( paul 's use word \) instead speaking sinner 's profession faith justified proven display good works also according james 2 , works evidence dead useless faith fails save james 2 problem doctrine salvation faith teaching \( 2 \) works would place , merit toward salvation , evidence true faith regards , dave weaver fool gives cannot keep weaver chdasic sps mot com gain cannot lose jim elliot \( 1949 \) course number possibilities reformers believed salvation faith works us suspect three things tied together way diagram form justice clh
eugene bigelow ebay sun com \( geno \) subject two people married god 's e reply eugene bigelow ebay sun com organization sun microsystems , inc lines 8 article apr 14 03 07 21 1993 athos rutgers edu randerso acad1 sahs uth tmc edu \( robert anderson \) writes would like get opinions exactly engaged couple become married god 's eyes \? unwilling go public marriage ceremony , say willing actually done know \?
eugene bigelow ebay sun com \( geno \) subject arrogance christians reply eugene bigelow ebay sun com organization sun microsystems , inc lines 40 n't think belief right everyone else 's belief wrong , n't belief simply belief means unfortunatly , seems christians taught think comes religion take extreme say religion one n't accept teachings wo n't saved takes quite bit arrogance claim know god thinks wants especially 's based upon interpretation book logic statement faulty assumes two people differing beliefs ca n't correct 's perception two people exactly alike two people perceive everything way believe one truth call god 's truth , universal truth , call n't believe god presents truth think 's look see , prayer , meditation , ation , dreams whatever people may perceive truth differently , n't mean one wrong right example , take question , glass half empty half full \? two different answers contradictory yet correct , belief true , require everyone else 's belief wrong person believe convincing evidence god save christians , 's hard see criticize arrogance saying could 're wrong hardly see 's arrogance let 's look bit closer suppose combination prophets messiahs taught us things , n't say anything believe , add anybody believes anything else damned , could well criticize us arrogance case message comes prophets , etc could wrong believing , n't see called arrogant maybe world n't soft place maybe certain choices actually eternal consequences see calling christian message arrogant , certain sense \( though sense calling law arrogant n't give us option whether fall jump building \) christians passing , given believe complaints see making \( 1 \) christians wrong , \( 2 \) god arrogant clh
mmh dcs qmw ac uk \( matthew huntbach \) subject proof resurection organization computer science dept , qmw , university london , uk lines 22 article apr 21 03 26 18 1993 geneva rutgers edu reedr cgsvax claremont edu writes following christ polluted strict obedience command subdue earth , nazi 's justly punished jews killing christ funny one little quote genesis treated certain anti christians christians given firm command destroy earth could prove almost anything taking little quotes context bible 's big book , know doubt could find single case anti ecological action taking place specifically teh perpetrator motivated christian belief nazis , motivated german nationalism , christianity fact despised christianity weak pacifist religion , much keen pagan glorification strength warfare killed jews germans , christ killers keen killing non german ethnic minority , gypsies matthew huntbach
jhpb sarto budd lake nj us \( joseph h buehler \) subject sspx schism \? organization none lines 52 bob van writes papacy infallible , matter faith , pope cannot wrong ! , hand , matter faith , matter church law , still obey pope legal head church words , given doctrine infallibility , choice obey primary problem church today saying less heresy might call 's idea pope always right everything says virtually place , especially country pope infallible certain specific well defined conditions conditions met , make mistakes make big mistakes couple historical examples come mind bishop robert perhaps greatest product english catholic church one point career , pope decided install one english see bishop said would happen dead body \( though maybe many words treat popes respect , even wrong \) problem would collect income see , probably never set foot would deprive people see shepherd bishop quite right ! another example pope john , pope middle ages decided souls saved enjoy vision last judgement decided defined doctrine church though n't quite get around defining 's way compatible catholic doctrine pope 's doctrine criticised many church went far put number opponents jail , even end , admit mistake shortly died , successor made exact opposite idea dogma church consult great catholic theologians treat subjects , st robert \( doctor church \) , find detailed discussions whether pope personally fall heresy schism teaching theologians commands pope must resisted detriment catholic faith pope 's authority given purpose building catholic church commands conflict purpose legal moral force
vbv lor eeap cwru edu \( virgilio \( dean \) b velasco jr \) subject arrogance christians organization case western reserve univ cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 28 article apr 22 00 56 15 1993 2073 geneva rutgers edu hayesstw risc1 unisa ac za \( steve hayes \) writes similar analogy might medical doctor believes blood transfusion necessary save life child whose parents jehovah 's witnesses objections blood transfusion doctor 's efforts persuade agree blood transfusion could perceived arrogant precisely way christians could perceived arrogant truth otherwise belief blood transfusion necessary save life child irrelevant matters doctor believes true , could seen trying beliefs parents , could well perceived arrogance let carry step doctors would claim infallible indeed , would generally admit could conceivably wrong , e g case , blood might turn necessary however , doctors would enough confidence conviction claim , genuine concern , necessary fallible human beings , must acknowledge possibility wrong however , would also say doubts reasonable , stand convictions virgilio dean velasco jr , department electrical eng'g applied physics cwru graduate student , roboticist training q wannabee bullwinkle , man 's intimidating referee ! boss well n't look like one ! jewish carpenter
rick granberry pts mot com \( rick granberry \) subject help reply rick granberry pts mot com \( rick granberry \) organization motorola paging systems group lines 46 article apr 21 03 26 51 1993 geneva rutgers edu , lmvec westminster ac uk \( william hargreaves \) writes hi everyone , i'm commited christian battling problem know romans talks saved faith deeds , yet hebrews james say faith without deeds useless , saying' fools , still think believing enough \? ' someone fully believing life totally lead god , according romans person still saved faith 02 yes believe scenario possible either believing living \( least part \) led god , else believing \( intellectually , waiting \( \? \) \) enough especially important remember one judge whether committed , judge someone else guess closest come know someone 's situation listening statements fallible , sense communion one another bit says god someone cold \( e n't know condemned \) lukewarm christian someone knows believes god make attempt live bible regarding passage , need remember letter church \( \) , people body christ \( rev 3 14 16 \) talks works translation could say says lack concern makes sick \( point throwing \) opinion saved faith alone \( \) taught romans , square mind teachings james conjunction lukewarm christian ' out' right , saving faith alone , except faith come alone , catch two meanings offer explanation jesus would either fire cold knew thus could made aware separation children , eternal damnation answer fool according folly , lest thou also like unto answer fool according folly , lest wise conceit \( proverbs 26 4 5 \)
reid cs uiuc edu \( jon reid \) subject cell church discussion group organization university illinois , dept comp sci , urbana , il lines 18 jodfishe silver ucs indiana edu \( joseph dale fisher \) writes please , define cell church missed somewhere past brought cell church , fundamental building block cell group small group 15 believers small groups responsible ministry church evangelism emphasis relationships , programs , evangelism relationship based probably raise questions answered , 's nutshell jon reid fool gives cannot keep reid cs uiuc edu gain cannot lose jim elliot
andrew mq edu au \( andrew \) subject proof resurection organization , macquarie university lines 74 article apr 21 03 26 18 1993 geneva rutgers edu reedr cgsvax claremont edu writes also cannot fail note intense suffering devastation wrecked world christians certain following christ polluted strict obedience command subdue earth , nazi 's justly punished jews killing christ \( well \) , innocent women burned alive accordance shall allow witch live , moslems killed crusades , god fearing men destroyed religious wars spain , france , england , etc christianity undoubtedly caused suffering needless loss life individuals whose following instructions therein , much grieve randy interesting , also believe presented misleading argument christianity cause massacres injustices relate , rather fault people misunderstand jesus christ 's message , modify suit beliefs aims , rather alter ambitions line presented desirable new testament every truthful good message carries authority implied authority , comes inevitable fact \( many \? \) people understand distorted way , inevitable consequences bible 's message love people , people preaches message repentance , giving unfortunately , people deceitful hearts , capable turning message around sometimes unbelievable ways also fundamental christian doctrine one problems look world eyes western history think find many , many cases massacres instigated people never claimed christian saying justify massacres , merely pointing tendency present humans already consider world without christianity doubt would freedoms countries live , n't peaceful doctrines jesus christ perhaps would even confronted harsh religion \( wo n't name , though one comes mind \) would even allow us freedom speech debate subjects point blame inherent human tendencies thirst power , greed hatred please n't point blame message preaches fundamental giving denial , love others christ , andrew p believe line questioning like presented , strangely enough , compatible becoming christian certainly christianity encourages one question behaviour world , especially christians praise god jesus christ , fact doubt beliefs still come back god forgiven , time time andrew
lmh juliet caltech edu \( henling , lawrence \) subject catholic church poland organization california institute technology lines 10 article apr 20 03 01 44 1993 geneva rutgers edu , let rug nl \( \) writes i'm writing paper role catholic church poland 1989 church concerning abortion law , religious education schools , article clari news religion last days polish tribunal decision said religious classes public schools okay children want take religion class could forced take ethics class substitute larry henling lmh shakes caltech edu
ata hfsi hfsi com \( john ata \) subject really rise \? \? \? reply news opl com organization hfsi lines 40 article apr 21 03 26 15 1993 1349 geneva rutgers edu reedr cgsvax claremont edu writes basic problem argument total complete reliance biblical text luke 's account highly suspect \( would refer commentary acts \) moreover luke 's account written least 90 years fact meantime everyone mentions died attempts find actual written sources behind text come section later portion acts firmly established moreover , pauls account events acts \( recorded galatians \) fail establish acts accounts even independent proof luke 's account valid , find strange would take negation truth without direct historical evidence \( least 've mentioned \) back assertion made , unequivocally christian ever faith believing resurrection luke 's account suggests otherwise , absence direct eyewitnesses claim luke mistaken , suggest unequivocal assertion suspect randy john g ata technical consultant internet ata hfsi com , inc uucp uunet ! hfsi ! ata 7900 drive ms 601 voice \( 703 \) 827 mclean , va 22102 fax \( 703 \) 827 think original claim may somewhat limited answer claim witnesses could n't lying suffer beliefs thus 's necessary show christian ever suffered believing resurrection rather issue whether witnessed agree posting 're responding shows liberal well conservative clh
dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu \( darius lecointe \) subject sabbath admissions 5of5 organization florida state university lines 27 following thread talk religion , soc religion christian bible study interest amazed different non biblical argument oppose sabbath present one question comes mind , especially since last one answered scripture maybe clh may wish provide first response lot talk sabbath tc ceremonial answer since tc commandments one law ten parts biblical basis decided sabbath portion ceremonial \? say seventh day sabbath applicable gentile christians mean sabbath commandment \? references please god intend requirements jews applicable gentile christians make plain gentiles commonwealth israel \? darius acts 15 , rom 14 5 , col 2 16 , gal 4 10 believe 've gotten loop point one classic situations sides think clear scriptural support , 's obvious argument going change anybody 's mind n't think 're going anything repeating clh
dcs gla ac uk \( \) subject \( none \) organization glasgow university computing science dept distribution uk return path uk ac gla dcs x mailer mail news 2 0 5 lines 2 satan !
gene gross lambada oit unc edu \( gene gross \) subject really rise \? \? \? organization university north carolina extended bulletin board service lines 60 article apr 15 00 58 18 1993 athos rutgers edu oser fermi wustl edu \( scott oser \) writes two simplest refutations \( 1 \) impact \? record impact comes new testament guarantee books least accurate , recorded impact actually happened find interesting contemporary source records eclipse , earthquake , temple curtain torn , etc earliest written claim jesus' resurrection pauline epistles , none written sooner 20 years supposed event first , 'd say impact right eyes ! 8 \) even discussing major impact , early church bears testimony impact \( 2 \) seems probable one displayed body jesus one knew personally believe likely explanation body stolen \( disciples , graverobbers \) n't bother point guards appears one gospel , seems like exactly sort thing early christians might make order counter grave robbing charge new testament record jews believed body stolen really guards , could effectively made claim , course knew n't forget jesus seen jews romans pilate fool n't need additional headaches fishermen stealing jesus' body make appear arisen since jesus buried grave man well know , say n't know buried begs question , say think disciples stole body think moment would die maintain something knew deliberate lie ! \? , think disciples would ! \? , i'm talking dying something firmly believe truth , , lie many done , i'm talking dying , , stoning , crucifixion , etc , something know lie ! thus , position regards disciples stealing body seems rather lightweight graverobbers , risk severe penalties grave robbing body jesus \? n't buried great riches , , argument discounted leaves back square one happened body ! \? ihl , gene opinions expressed necessarily university north carolina chapel hill , campus office information technology , experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu 152 2 22 80 , let comment plausible non christian scenario , one typically suggested sceptics knowledgeable nt , resurrection subjective event , empty tomb stories result accounts growing telling clh
ata hfsi hfsi com \( john ata \) subject hell reply news opl com organization hfsi lines 19 article apr 12 03 44 24 1993 athos rutgers edu dmn kepler unh edu \( 's seeker born every minute \) writes would depend heaven like god king , eternity heaven consists giving thanks praise king , might opt hell read lovely account missionary trying , hand , really loved king , loved point assuring eternal time spent would eternal ecstasy , would really opt choice \? dana john g ata technical consultant internet ata hfsi com , inc uucp uunet ! hfsi ! ata 7900 drive ms 601 voice \( 703 \) 827 mclean , va 22102 fax \( 703 \) 827
ata hfsi hfsi com \( john ata \) subject really rise \? \? \? reply news opl com organization hfsi lines 49 article apr 12 03 44 39 1993 athos rutgers edu reedr cgsvax claremont edu writes article apr 10 05 31 46 1993 athos rutgers edu , luomat alleg edu \( timothy j luoma \) writes article apr 9 01 11 16 1993 athos rutgers edu suppose part going tell people christ risen never mind stoning , burned alive , possible crucifixion let 's talk whip would used would broken , metal , one ever , beaten , burned , fed lions , killed way belief resurrection sorry disappoint think vastly oversimplifying things know early christians suffered witness christ example act 5 40 speech persuaded called apostles ordered speak name jesus , let go act 5 41 apostles left , counted worthy suffering disgrace name appears jewish rulers time particular aversion even hearing jesus 's name act 5 28 gave strict orders teach name , said yet filled jerusalem teaching determined make us guilty man 's blood finally , first apostle 's death , james zebedee certainly rome 's hand first martyr stephen idea resurrection one found host different forms religions antiquity problem resurrection issue tiny fragment jewish population problem one believed resurrection , one must believe jesus truly son god stood preached ministry earth would extremely difficult people , especially plotted kill randy john g ata technical consultant internet ata hfsi com , inc uucp uunet ! hfsi ! ata 7900 drive ms 601 voice \( 703 \) 827 mclean , va 22102 fax \( 703 \) 827
aa888 freenet carleton ca \( mark baker \) subject arrogance christians reply aa888 freenet carleton ca \( mark baker \) organization national capital freenet lines 63 previous article , phs431d vaxc cc monash edu au \( \) says article apr 13 00 08 07 1993 athos rutgers edu , aa888 freenet carleton ca \( mark baker \) writes demand rational proof god 's existence , deny god 's existence , since neither science , reason , , nature , prove anything asking us believe blindly \? trying deny part us makes us ask question god exist \? e self awareness reason use ability reason become ignorant animals earth god want us like \? asking believe things visible n't know blindly i'm sure blindness comes deny reason , indeed insist upon , reason draws conclusions evidence decide advance reason act evidence five physical senses , cut reason possibility reaching conclusion outside physical sphere \( beyond rather provocative , inconclusive , conclusion physical sphere self explanatory \) christians claim received different kind evidence , call faith , gift god , evidence evidence thing chooses reveal hide evidence senses cannot tell ting exists reasoning evidence senses wo n't help either christians reason evidence faith , claim evidence wholly consistent evidence senses , indeed , evidence senses part god 's revelation us necessarilly case however knowledge god must come route may senses physical ones providing evidence non physical realities \( may , course , physical realities type corresponding senses , know \) senses , exist , may provide valid evidence reason work , senses , senses may impaired people , , may spiritually blind sense , belief god becomes act sight , disbelief blind right science reason cannot prove anything however , use believe faith alone since use faith , one picture god \( e g hinduism \) less valid another \( e g christianity \) \? faith , said , opposed reason , simply new source evidence reason may operate clear human beings many systems explaining evidence physical senses , similarly many systems explaining evidence provided faith religious believers general , christians particular , use reason help sift evidence come clearer understanding evidence provided faith science claims , good reason , valid system explaining physical universe , christianity claims , also good reason , valid system , possessed best evidence , explaining gods revelations man doubt christians use reason , read newsgroup see rational debate aplenty mark baker task cut jungles , aa888 freenet carleton ca irrigate deserts c lewis
wjhovi01 ulkyvx louisville edu subject tuff christian \? organization university louisville lines 24 someone writing anonymously asks would become christian indoctrinated parents \? probably never learned religion make comparative study therefore claim brain washed become christian without indoctrinated parents , studied buddhism fairly carefully religions lesser degree made decision accept truth claims christianity given lot thought \( point process purely cold , rational one powerful element well also , rest assured n't lay responsibility outcome conversion anyone god \) took years years happen , many objections poster puts forward grew shadow generic authoritarian conservative denomination , knew n't way life could adopt gradually learned tar christianity brush , realized quite suddenly one cold winter night accepted rejected quite certain brain washed bill
wjhovi01 ulkyvx louisville edu subject hebrew grammar texts choose english german \? organization university louisville lines 37 phil sells writes probably tired old horse , maybe slightly different twist wanted know good english language texts learning ancient hebrew , compare german educational texts , anybody idea ca n't figure buy one later study wait get back u impression advanced work much better german reference works \( , especially \) first time encounter , personal preference would deal textbook written native language know german germany , pick reference books think handle \( know works reputation , since german rusty , 'd look following books 's lexicon , 's concordance , theological dictionary ot \) 's like divinity schools seminaries states \? lot language instruction done \? really n't basis comparison amount language instruction available us seminaries varies widely , mostly depending denominational heritage school presbyterian reformed seminaries probably place lot emphasis biblical languages others \( course , divinity school doctoral program biblical studies going extensive language resources ! quite masters degree granting seminaries attitude seems , well , 're really interested 'll give semester long course , n't understand \) pattern louisville presbyterian seminary first year students take intensive five week introductory language courses language , followed semester long exegesis courses \( hebrew august , ot exegesis fall greek january , nt exegesis spring \) courses required graduation , third half students , 'd say , take advanced biblical work requires language work
wquinnan sdcc13 ucsd edu \( malcusco \) subject two people married god 's eyes \? organization university california , san diego lines 59 article apr 16 23 18 04 1993 1876 geneva rutgers edu rob mit edu writes think lewis said wedding , 's principals marry church state present merely witnesses lewis 's summary standard catholic theology however n't mean presence witnesses optional , except odd situations like standard desert island clh originally wrote person asked question personally , decided post information topic spoke pastor parish \( catholic \) recently , coincidence , subject explaination possible couple marry without presence priest , important recognized church soon possible church community believers , members church , degree , held accountable less hypothetical mythical couple desert island , many places world priests availible marriages regular basis therefore , couples get married without priest present , get priest testify marriage one comes area remember religion teacher high school saying marriage ceremony benefit couple much benefit community thus , married couples responsibility community stay married , divorce sets bad example community also , couple vowed become one one another community able rely couple one couples may marry without witnesses , may get without priest present simply admission church declared marriage , fact , marriage , whatever reason n't start getting married back seat station wagon giving half hour later ! ! tend agree response back said couples become married soon marriage , would add couples consider marriage sex , whether intended married , assuming willing partners sexual act couple must prepared raise children may result sexual act benefit parents sex commitment , believe , god 's eyes i'm god , malcusco
telerama pgh pa us \( ed \) subject orthodox list organization telerama public access internet , pittsburgh , pa lines 7 recently move forgot update address orthodox mailing list anyone e mail address changes exactly put caps , etc \? \( please send original subscription address also \) thanks ahead time ! ed ed internet telerama pgh pa us unemployment studies major
csv warwick ac uk \( mr p simmons \) subject religion religion \? organization computing services , university warwick , uk lines 46 family never particularly religious singing christmas carols limit thus 've never really believed god heaven , although n't actually believe n't exist either i'm sort , probably like lot people guess lately 've thinking lot , wondered religious people convinced god feel though want believe , i'm used believing things without proof ca n't believe definitely n't god , ca n't definitely believe wondered brought religious families never believed different anyone help understand belief faith god strong another question frequently crosses mind religion correct \? \? choose religion , know christian god exists gods religions n't \? \? feel people follow religions \? \? atheists \? \? people like agnostics suppose respect religion , accept beliefs valid \? \? n't contradiction religions \? \? religion valid others \? \? less respect someone 're religious , follow different religion would christian \? \? also , much scriptures correct \? \? events bible really supposed happened , supposed stories morals showing true christian behave \? \? generally follow christian ideas , suppose fairly universal throughout religions killing , stealing , etc , want better expression part find hard actual belief god finally , god 's attitude people like , n't quite believe , generally fairly 'good' people surely believing n't make worse person \? \? , find wondering strongly want really believe , find religion sorry bit writing ideas came head i'm sure probably repeated bit thanks help , paul simmons 's enough discussion evidence christianity recently may prefer respond via email rather posting clh
pharvey quack kfu com \( paul harvey \) subject sabbath admissions 5of5 organization duck pond public unix 1 408 249 9630 , log 'guest' lines 155 wrote response dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu \( darius lecointe \) 's clear much needs said faq think paul 's comments one day another \( rom 14 \) probably needs said paul god \? interpretation words paul higher priority direct word jesus matt5 14 19 \? paul begins romans 14 someone weak faith count one weak faith \? accept darius honor lord wish might equally accept esteem days alike similarly best honor lord yes , bible say \? jesus say \? paul closes romans 14 , hand , person doubts something eats anyway guilty , n't acting faith , failure act faith sin , isbn 0 99 2 read ten commandments portion law \? read jesus' word matt5 14 19 \? doubt mind right sin \( greek missing mark \) \? however 'd like clear think 's unambiguous proof regular christian worship first day indicated , responses passages cited whereas , ten commandments jesus' words matt5 14 19 fairly clear , \? difficulty passages actually something else look like talking christian meetings , neither explicitly says gathered every sunday worship get various pieces information , nothing aimed answering question matt5 14 19 n't answer question \? day christians met houses acts 20 7 , despite confusion , described acts occuring sunday n't say gathered see paul , gathered breaking bread , breaking bread roughly synonymous eating think obvious reading first day every week simply means every time gather worship unite concept ten commandments jesus 's word matt5 14 19 \? think reason implications clear statements nt authors assumed readers knew christian worship clh , assumed ten commandments jesus' word matt5 14 19 actually stood something \? perhaps strong faith \? , n't believe paul god however paul writing largely gentile audience law regarded jews time \( \) binding jews , gentiles rules binding human beings \( called laws \) , quite minimal issue church face jesus' death gentiles wanted follow christ decision impose law n't say law abolished simply acknowledged fact n't apply gentiles thus contradiction mat 5 far tell , paul jewish christians continue participate jewish worship sabbath thus continued obey law issue \( \) gentile christians , covered law \( least ceremonial aspects \) jesus dealt mostly jews think reasonably assume mat 5 directed jewish audience interact gentiles times \( e g centurion whose slave healed couple others \) terms used describe centurion \( see luke 7 \) suggest god , e gentile followed god , adopted whole jewish law jewish elders worthy person , jesus accepted seems indicate jesus accepted prevailing view gentiles need accept law however 's involved want compare jesus paul law order get full picture role law , come grips paul 's apparent rejection law , relates jesus' law least read paul , says law serves purpose certain sense superceded , issue n't one abolition law middle discussion , paul notes might understood way , assures us 's intends say rather , sees law primarily present convict people sinfulness ultimately 's impossible standard , one superceded christ paul 's comments world 's clearest , everyone agrees reading interesting thing notice even radical position entail abolition law still remains uncompromising standard , iota dot may removed purpose sin , 's important relaxed however christians , 's end ultimately live faith , law theoretical categories use rather different , end think jesus paul come rather similar conclusion quoted passage mat 5 taken context rest sermon mount , jesus shows us interprets law iota dot would suggest rather literal reading , fact 's jesus' approach jesus' interpretations emphasize intent law , stay away ceremonial details indeed well known taking rather free attitude towards sabbath kosher laws scholars claim mat 5 17 20 needs taken context 1st cent jewish discussions jesus accuses opponents caring giving tenth even minor , neglecting things really matter justice , mercy faith , caring cups plates cleaned , fact inside people use full extortion \( mat 23 23 25 \) , discussion later mat 5 , suggest jesus specific view law mind , talks maintaining law full strength , thinking aspects paul 's conclusion similar talks law superceded , specific examples gives involve ceremonial law , circumcision sabbath quite concerned maintaining moral standards net result paul talks law superceded , jesus talks law maintained , believe talking different aspects law paul embroiled arguments circumcision natural letters responding specific situations , 's looking aspect law currently causing trouble law specifically jewish ceremonies certainly intend abolish divine standards conduct hand , jesus law , seems talking law broadest implications morals human relationships , aspects later give paul much trouble 's unfortunate people use terms different ways , familiar current conflicts look way terms like family values take special meaning current context imagine poor historian future trying figure family values used code word opposition homosexuality one specific period u think law taken similar role arguments paul involved paul clearly rejecting jewish values go along term law , people concerned family values movement really opposed family values clh
mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) subject two people married god 's eyes \? organization ai programs , university georgia , athens lines 17 article apr 16 23 15 27 1993 geneva rutgers edu cs89mcd brunel ac uk \( michael c davis \) writes honoring laws state , also people perceive us e culturally insensitive declare married without going civil ceremony \) would go couple unwilling commitment publicly witnessed recorded , 's prima evidence commitment n't really michael covington , associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu university georgia phone 706 542 0358 athens , georgia 30602 7415 u amateur radio n4tmi
armstrng cs dal ca \( stan armstrong \) subject immaterial afterlife \( hell real \) organization math , stats cs , dalhousie university , halifax , ns , canada lines 21 article m9u spss com goer midway uchicago edu writes thought everyone died simply went sheol notion going heaven based parts nt speak immaterial afterlife richard l goer midway uchicago bitnet goer midway uchicago edu rutgers ! oddjob ! ellis ! goer bible teaching immaterial afterlife \? always taught jews n christians would found notion n't christians believe resurrection body \? mean material simply stuff made 100 elements know love much \? stan armstrong religious studies dept , saint mary 's university , halifax , n armstrong husky1 stmarys ca att ! clyde ! watmath ! water ! dalcs ! armstrng
garg campbell ca us \( bob van \) subject sspx schism \? organization land garg lines 48 jhpb sarto budd lake nj us \( joseph h buehler \) many catholics decide side pope soundness , papacy infallible , eventually pope straighten , hand , also , , short term , popes may indeed wrong , catholics nothing help situation obeying 're wrong fact , situation grave enough , sin obeying least , 're wasting great opportunity , failing love christ heroic way time needs badly joe logic papacy infallible , matter faith , pope cannot wrong ! , hand , matter faith , matter church law , still obey pope legal head church words , given doctrine infallibility , choice obey bob bob van peace 0 garg campbell ca us land garg bbs unto bbs \( 408 \) 378 5108 might want look faq infallibility doctrine infallibility say pope always right catholic theologians acknowledge number occasions pope wrong appear two aspects infallibility one general concept long run church protected serious error however mean 's impossible take wrong turns one time another specific concept papal infallibility specific circumstances papal statement known infallible however relatively small fraction statements meet criteria absolve catholics duty obey even ordinary teachings pope however teachings made way explicitly infallible clh
lmh juliet caltech edu \( henling , lawrence \) subject christian 's need christianity \( \) organization california institute technology lines 26 article apr 16 23 17 40 1993 1861 geneva rutgers edu , mussack austin ibm com writes example universe exist \? whether find pascal 's \( \? \) wager spend lives searching , merely wasted lives , meaningless anyway suppose universe 5 billion years old , suppose lasts another 5 billion years suppose live 100 nothing , small scary searching along friends earth nothing else n't scared find view christianity quite sad idea life meaning importance creator seem like much basis belief logic also appalling god must exist want heard line reasoning wonder prevalent certainly modern society many people convinced life hopeless \( pollsters newscasts state \) , n't see good reason become religious want join cult , waco \? leaders give security blanket desire larry henling lmh shakes caltech edu
co uk \( robert palmer \) subject christian parenting lines 40 hi sociology student currently researching young offenders looking way various groups children raised home moment information discipline within christian home please , parent catagory email response following responses treated used prepare stats 1 ages sexes children 2 spank kids \? 3 often \? 4 use implement spank \? 5 spank , method discipline use \? 6 age \? 7 location 8 age 16 ever commit criminal offence \? 9 ere disciplined kid thank advance reply make please e mail replies rather post newsgroup hope obvious responses question likely serious problems used research purposes readers likely random sample christians , form contain enough information act sample perhaps someone familiar research methods might want correspond clh
jodfishe silver ucs indiana edu \( joseph dale fisher \) subject anger organization indiana university lines 34 article apr 17 01 10 44 1993 2232 geneva rutgers edu news cbnewsk att com writes paul conditt writes insert deletion paul 's aaron 's discourse anger , ref galatians 5 19 20 n't know obvious speaking acts flesh speaking emotions emotions moral immoral , good bad emotions first step label emotion good bad numb hide true feelings , accept , god accepts us oh , definitely please look colossians 3 5 10 ephesians 4 25 27 emotions controlled god puts strong emphasis self control , otherwise , would paul write timothy much making sure teach self control \? insert deletion remainder paragraph think , aaron n't quick judge forgiven aids , dealt taken responsibility feelings made appropriate choices action feelings given anger please , think read , joe , issue self control especially feelings actions , actions stem feelings many instances god giving anger , comes soon joe moore joe fisher
jodfishe silver ucs indiana edu \( joseph dale fisher \) subject tuff christian \? organization indiana university lines 59 article apr 17 01 10 58 1993 2246 geneva rutgers edu mdbs ms uky edu \( name \) writes bissda saturn wwc edu \( dan lawrence bissell \) writes n't think people understand christian certainly see lot churches rather think way life , total sacrafice everything god 's sake loved us enough die save us typical statement irrational brainwashed person bible written male thousands years ago \( holy books \) follow parts think suitable modern life ignore others heaven 's \( ! \) sake n't take literally please , leave heaven sake , pray dan take literally 's god intended taken dan , view many groups appears correct point view however , found group truly meeting requirements laid bible means disciple jesus clue wwc , please mail 'd really like get touch hey ca n't , god inspires us turn lives 's tuff people n't want , real christian would something strong persevere insert deletion ranting religions obviously gone center dan 's original context dan , i'm familiar one 've got point , though n't want turn everything disciple , clue 've taught , done exactly turned everything follow jesus , blocked difficult doctrine taught pharisees teachers law however , jesus pointed takes follow disciple luke 9 23 26 luke 14 25 33 question people ignore command treat optional \? certainly n't answer insert deletion parting question would become christian indoctrinated parents \? probably never learned religion make comparative study therefore claim brain washed parents nothing god everything attacking responses , must say disagree tone appears statements \( possibly point slander \) talking people , please , response , state instead flying handle discourse may nothing truly discussed i'm sure dan would much happier time responses joe
chips astro ocis temple edu \( charlie mathew \) subject bible research inst organization temple university lines 27 hi ! anyone know anything interdisciplinary bible research institute , operating , pa \? i'm really interested theories old earth \( opposed young earth \) believe evolution thanks , master , charley seek god find , among things , piercing pleasure seek pleasure find boredom , disillusionment john white \( eros defiled \) note accept discussions evolution , dedicated group , talk origins clh
eos ncsu edu \( christopher \) subject reply eos ncsu edu \( christopher \) organization north carolina state university , project eos lines 149 somewhat long , pleas read ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! boy glad decided read 've got problem need many people 's help possible go details , let go ahead tell \( though may sound \) one boy meets girl problem least totally like anyway ok , 19 year old ncsu 10 years ago , family coast rented across street , ths girl would whistle whenever saw name erin well , became friends week beach writing 10 years period 2 years lost contact ago way erin lives kansas nc ok , last year one letters , says coming back nc see family gonna drove 4 hours see begins spent whole day erin one best days life even though writing , still get used person got incredible woman ever met \( 's one year older btw \) mean , person world could ask better person incredibly beautiful \( mention way league although i'm mind \) , great personality great sence humor family one families goes church extent christianity know kind people knows christian well , get idea think ever thing love first sight found last year kid say thought every day since letters , erin always kid finding dates \( true , know ca n't \) problems home , folks split ended leaving school present let give part letter got last week okay , i'm going try explain life i'm going ku anymore something n't right college n't clicking greek life really big n't way n't taking classes truly interested really idea want life interested something medical \( physical \) love working kids , n't work university parents could tell i'm working full time bass store bass shoes part time job local daycare work infant room w f 've really enjoyed far spices week little bit 's great experience , i'm planning going back school near future main reason want study plan going back within next couple years \? idea except one thing , wo n't kansas right i'm discussing promotion boss district manager looks like 'll train store work 4 6 months assistant manager 's done , 'll basically given list stores \( newly soon built \) chose would like manage 've pretty much decided either one \( close beach \) would n't fun actually see every years \? \? think abou \? would like know opinion job would pretty much temporary good pay management experience would look good application resume company solid treats employees well good benefits , bonuses medical plans plus 1 year full time service , reimburse tuition school money , help , especially since probably end paying state tuition wherever go chris , really would like know think decision respect opinion 've completely lost soooo long opportunity came along sounded really good like job although i'm 99 9 sure want life management something n't think earning 20 , 000 year 20 year old female bad anyway , onto career decisions 'll solve problem right , marry pilot thing like sometimes ! seriously \( seriously \) make , worry home life later ok , well i'm sure see got think meant marraige thing \? \? dream night marrying , mentions letter ! ! ! n't know think \? \? since wants move carolina 's search bass store near come carolina \? \? \? always pick people graduate high school get married mean \? \? \? 've lot stress lately exams also fact n't date 1 \) time 2 \) much 3 \) college women wrapped social scene greeks christian ca n't support says n't like greek thing either ! ! maybe i'm actually girl attracted paying real attention mean , move nc would \? \? \? i'm 19 20 i'm struggling classes prayed past year time time saying , god right one , let situation open could sign \? \? \? would anything get nc makes worse call \? \? i'm terrible phone n't even like talk friends longer 3 minutes mean , would girl perfect want average guy like \? \? i'm really confused would really appreciate help get thanx chris feeling might appropriate talk chris directly via email clh
jkellett netcom com \( joe kellett \) subject sex education organization netcom lines 45 article apr 8 00 57 31 1993 athos rutgers edu jviv usmi01 midland chevron com \( john viveiros \) writes seems spend significant amount time correcting errors reliability tests condoms abstinence years ago saw famous study showed 10 failure rate condoms study showed 20 failure rate abstinence ! ! , adult couples relied abstinence prevent pregnancy got pregnant alarming numbers n't abstain 're thinking work high school kids \? ! \? told planned parenthood style values free methods , teach contraceptive technology advise kids make choices , actually increase pregnancy rates posted long article back happy email copy interested article included sources contact information research verifying statements , outstanding source info acquiring abstinence related curricula even single copy quantities home use research produced results abstinence related curricula found decrease pregnancy rates teens assume reasonable assume aids rate pregnancy rate difference contraceptive technology values taught children pp curricula taught kids legitimate choices , abstinence related curricula taught legitimate choices abstinence values system strongest behavior behavior kids despite better track record abstinence related curricula , suppressed favor curricula produce effect contrary desired question discussion \( say textbooks \) n't teach safe drug use kids , instead drug abstinence \? n't know class use drugs safely choose use drugs would increase drug use \? n't drug abstinence education barred schools teaches religion \? n't abandoning children use drugs anyway , need instruction safe use \? joe kellett jkellett netcom com
seanna bnr ca \( seanna \( \) watson \) subject accepting jeesus heart organization bell northern research , ottawa , canada lines 48 article apr 14 03 07 38 1993 5420 athos rutgers edu johnsd2 rpi edu writes article 28388 athos rutgers edu , jayne mmalt guild org \( jayne kulikauskas \) writes drugs replacement christ empty spot god shaped hole hearts must something ease pain heard claim quite times anybody know first came god shaped hole business \? effective substance abuse recovery programs involve meeting peoples' spiritual needs might want provide evidence next time make claim like 12 step programs \( like alcoholics anonymous \) , one steps involves higher power aa 12 step abuse recovery programs acknowledged among effective unfortunately , evidence god , dismissed stating defect personality makes substance abusers makes people , could perhaps acknowledge religious better crutch drug addict , still maintain \( suspect atheists would find substance abuse preferable christianity \) think essential problem communication christ atheists christians necessarily see incomplete , needing god \( 'god shaped \) , atheists necessarily see self sufficient atheists right , christians guilty morally weak , cowardly stand christians right , atheists guilty considerable arrogance \( use term atheist refer person definite conviction god , opposed one know care god \) seanna watson bell northern research , pray end living , \( seanna bnr ca \) ottawa , ontario , canada philosophies creeds , god find people busy opinion , opinions \? oh opinions planting trees sowing seeds , 're bnr 's , 're mine knew 'd left somewhere fred kaan \( let 's see spelled right got author 's name right maybe 3rd sig keeper \)
armstrng cs dal ca \( stan armstrong \) subject far good organization math , stats cs , dalhousie university , halifax , ns , canada lines 22 article spss com luomat alleg edu writes may really dumb one , 'll ask anyways christians know never live requirements god , right \? \( may wrong , understanding \) still try n't seem like spending lives trying reach goal never achieve \? know saved faith works , mean saved n't anything \? think james tells us faith without works dead \( paraphrase \) work \? long think good things rather come want , miss point love god come love loves find good , sign try even harder \( romans 7 14 8 2 \) sign seek god aware jesus' presence , usually want wants , love weakness stan armstrong religious studies dept , saint mary 's university , halifax , n armstrong husky1 stmarys ca att ! clyde ! watmath ! water ! dalcs ! armstrng
alastair otago ac nz \( alastair thomson \) subject 'just justifiable war' exist \? organization university otago lines 107 hi netters , question would much like see discussion thing war \? would love see basis scripture either war wrong , war justifiable get things started would like outline asking question high school days quite involved new zealand forces \( bit like understand , lot emphasis fun military career training \) became extremely flying , become involved sport , great interest military aviation hardware best 'real' flyer could ask favourite computer games accurate simulations military aircraft , past present became christian 10 years ago , time rejected military activity immoral , war complete opposition god 's commandments love one another , especially one 's enemies war iraq , found great excitement listening reports effectiveness attacks using aviation technology admire bomber , , f16 strike aircraft , etc war concluded began really enjoy simulations based around conflict great go bomb saddam 's bio weapons plants computer , shoot mig 's f16 simulation death people wonderful game imagine real pilots view real thing much way one look language used see personal impact war ignored building containing people , aircraft flown pilot simply dead civilians way removing reality war people whose support necessary continued war one look vietnam see important public opinion see troops sponsored united nations entering somalia , prospect military intervention muslim croat serb conflict former yugoslavia revulsion particular siege sarajevo , last days \( sorry 'bout spelling \) , caused rethink stand war list several wars last 50 years look , say yes may , may simply gut reactions many cases benefit history brings let go state reasons reaction historian , excuse historical , working popular history known new zealand 1 second world war murder jews hitler stopped massive civilian casualties sides dresden , hiroshima probably justifiable 2 korean war political expansionism north korea , basically communism vs capitalism probably justifiable 3 vietnam , us involvement 4 vietnamese invasion cambodia genocide khmer rouge probably justifiable 5 iraq \( desert storm \) political expansionism , threat world oil supply factors genocide sure , probably justifiable 6 future involvement bosnia genocide called 'ethnic much tv coverage atrocities civilian casualties probably justifiable 7 possible future use nuclear weapons tactical strategic , somewhere world us response someone else e g libya israel feelings simple nuclear war weapons love new zealand government 's stand banning nuclear armed powered warships nz port never justifiable views , looked scripture , confused would appreciate others view , particularly based scripture n't want , yer wrong think answers 8 \) thanks help alastair thomson , phone 64 3 479 chief programmer , fax 64 3 479 black , university otago , department computer science , e mail alastair otago ac nz p box 56 otago ac nz dunedin nextmail welcome new zealand god loved world much , gave us son , die place , may eternal life john 3 16 , paraphrase
alaska edu subject couple married organization university alaska lines 31 used marriage commissioner alaska court system \( sort justice peace \) great difficulty duty used pray earnestly courthouse bathroom ceremonies , mostly asking couples would come appreciate fulfill true holiness divine purpose marriage couples obviously n't realize marriage god 's institution , state 's gradually , however , came conclude acting strictly secular , public capacity , established state expectations couples involved , really conducting purely secular , legal civil event , greater moral religious implications conducting civil trial \( couple told , mid ceremony , please hurry may helped conclusion \) thought neatly clear sharp distinction marriage god , marriage state , deal divorce keeping matthew 19 6 mind , felt state business marriage established god , course assumed jurisdiction nonetheless would ask proposing answers question consider issue 's logical extension intercourse , mental intent parties , ceremony church , combination thereof , establishes marriage , moment dissolved \? karl iii university alaska
rolfe junior dsu edu \( tim rolfe \) subject divine providence vs murphy 's law lines 12 romans 8 28 \( rsv \) know everything god works good love , called according purpose murphy 's law anything go wrong , quite familiar commentary murphy 's law romans 8 28 \? matter , appropriate humor contradicted scripture \? tim rolfe rolfe dsuvax dsu edu rolfe junior dsu edu
infonode ingr com \( mark w \) subject accepting jesus heart organization intergraph corporation , huntsville , al lines 10 religion \( especially christianity \) nothing drug people use drugs escape reality christians inject jeezus live high would say especially christianity \? mark
jayne mmalt guild org \( jayne kulikauskas \) subject 's name \? sequel organization kulikauskas home lines 57 've thinking idea raised \( michael covington , think \) words mean think mean , regardless etymology 've reflecting certain words meant childhood tracing shaped attitudes grew home christ bad word people angry said word christian meant someone jew carried connotations , threat , enemy took time figure connection accepted jesus , expected become christian meant join enemy knew others would consider level , agreed , still prepared pay price like esau , sold however , made better bargain got stew , got incomparable riches knowing christ turned , parents found later hoping phase would grow time decided n't phase , sort used n't n't completely accept situation either example , n't come wedding church visited grandmother hospital days death , said , far i'm concerned , still jew meant loved jew christian \( 'll concede , one likes chicken soup balls \) \) keep kosher celebrate sabbath saturday sons circumcised things true people consider jews rules make people jews heritage past gave past find hard relate messianic jews experience unlike mine still consider jews following jesus would even say must , stage life would like heritage something valued much gave sense giving god may small sacrifice may unnecessary sacrifice gave want ask back n't heritage born , another house israel , member church one things like catholic christian rich tradition gives feeling , , rooted past probably one reasons n't like people mess around christian traditions \( example , changing name easter \) traditions fill important emotional need mine suppose point people n't assume believers jewish background good name , others oxymoron jayne kulikauskas mmalt guild org
noye midway uchicago edu \( vera shanti noyes \) subject tuff christian \? reply noye midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 75 article apr 17 01 10 58 1993 2246 geneva rutgers edu mdbs ms uky edu \( name \) writes bissda saturn wwc edu \( dan lawrence bissell \) writes hey ca n't , god inspires us turn lives 's tuff people n't want , real christian would something strong persevere think easy muslim \? buddhist \? good points buddhism , etc deleted one says christianity true christianity hard follow faithfully mean one discounts validity difficulty religions admire religion willing make kind sacrifices dedicate spiritually way talking deleted perhaps leave crap \( woman created man , helper etc \) think christianity \? christians believe particular story literally sounds like supporting policy another example helps someone 's faith take every word bible literally , support respect , time n't rush one day , christianity whole life going church week , helping poor people box everything time units work time , sports , tv , social life god boxes ever turn tv pat robertson brain washers \( oh boy , act put ! \) 1 800 number turn god seems alive well inside boxes please n't judge christianity one man man one truly judge christianity jesus \( makes sense , right \? \) think point put lives little boxes true comment robertson \? carried us boxes created parting question would become christian indoctrinated parents \? probably never learned religion make comparative study therefore claim brain washed raised agnostic father never baptised raised atheist atheist found close mindedness present viewpoint parents equal close mindedness found viewpoint christians came contact thus free choose live life , supported decision made join episcopal church , although emphasized respect beliefs result beliefs , ie , try convert , decision \( please , flames advice convert ! \) one good friends greatly respect beliefs culture surrounding religion best friend jewish always held profound jewish religion \( chaim isaac singer two favorite authors \) really think make kind generalization christians choose mean choose faith consciously accepted faith adult lives \( confirmation represents \) , talk brainwashed vera choose decide , still made choice ! rush , freewill
noye midway uchicago edu \( vera shanti noyes \) subject agnostic 's question reply noye midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 23 perhaps tell friend feel pressured continual discussions topic surely n't feel pressured something feel uncomfortable \( since christianity choice one make one 's \) please also realize friendship probably feels missing something great , wants tell since know learn christianity , tell make choice , choice , respected personally believe christian 's mission christ like , showing faith happiness faith , make sure people know welcome talk believe imposing beliefs upon others everyone 's definitions imposing may differ hope made clear , please correct ! \) vera clock ! bind unto today vera noyes religion ! strong name noye midway uchicago edu ! trinity disclaimer lard st patrick 's breastplate disclaim \?
jhpb sarto budd lake nj us \( joseph h buehler \) subject sspx schism \? organization none lines 182 material michael davies subject schism general lefebvre particular wrote around 1990 first part two part article scandalous activities archbishop \( country \) , cut rest relevant joe buehler schism disobedience according st thomas aquinas , schism consists primarily refusal submission pope communion members church united first sight would appear , whatever subjective motivation archbishop , discussed , must state objective schism refused submit pope grave matter involving supreme power jurisdiction however , standard catholic textbooks theology make clear involve disobedience acts disobedience schismatic , noted beginning article , would mean number american bishops schismatic would reach double figures distinction disobedience schism made clear article schism authoritative de article father certainly friend archbishop lefebvre explains schism disobedience similar often confused father writes schism involves refusal accept existence legitimate authority church , example , luther 's rejection papacy father explains refusal accept decision legitimate authority particular instance constitute schism disobedience catholic encyclopedia explains catholic truly schismatic would intend sever church far lies adds every disobedience schism order possess character must include besides transgression command , denial divine right command mgr lefebvre deny divine right pope command , affirms repeatedly recognition pope 's authority intention never breaking away rome archbishop made attitude clear july august 1989 issue 30 days pray pope every day nothing changed consecrations last june 30 recognize john paul ii legitimate pope catholic church n't even say heretical pope say actions favor heresy intrinsically schismatic \? principal argument used claiming mgr lefebvre schism consecration bishop without papal mandate intrinsically schismatic act bishop carries consecration , claimed , becomes facto schismatic true consecration intrinsically schismatic act would always involved penalty excommunication 1917 code canon law offence punished suspension \( see canon 2370 1917 code \) pope pius xii raised penalty excommunication response establishment schismatic church china consecration illicit chinese bishops differed radically consecrations carried mgr lefebvre professed intention authority pope , , deny right govern church , consecrated chinese bishops given mandate exercise apostolic mission neither archbishop lefebvre bishops consecrated claim powers jurisdiction consecrated solely purpose ensuring survival society carrying also perform wish minimize way gravity step take mgr lefebvre consecration bishops without papal mandate far serious matter ordination priests involves refusal practice jurisdiction belonging divine right roman archbishop could argue crisis church could grave , grave measures needed response appears taken granted archbishop 's critics excommunicated offense schism , vatican certainly guilty impression much modicum truth allegation new code canon law includes section beginning canon entitled penalties specific offenses \( de dicta \) first part deals offenses religion unity church \( de contra et \) canon deals offense schism , evidently , together apostasy heresy , one three fundamental offenses unity church archbishop excommunicated terms canon , indeed , canon involving offense religion unity church canon cited excommunication comes third section penalties specific offenses entitled usurpation functions offenses exercise \( de \) canon question canon , reads bishop someone bishop person receives consecration bishop without mandate incur automatic \( \) excommunication reserved holy see scandalous attempts smear archbishop lefebvre offense schism , , contrary truth charity comparable smear civil opposed ecclesiastical law would certainly justify legal action libel involving massive damages accurate parallel would state man convicted manslaughter convicted first degree murder must stress written dubious opinion canon law canon lawyers without least shred sympathy mgr lefebvre charge schism made totally untenable father patrick , dean faculty canon law institut paris noted 4 july 1988 issue , explained , mgr lefebvre excommunicated schism usurpation ecclesiastical function added consecration bishop constitutes schism apostolic mission upon consecrated bishop usurpation powers sovereign proves intention establishing parallel church cardinal , president commission authentic interpretation canon law , commented consecrations 10 july 1988 issue la would hard imagine authoritative opinion cardinal wrote act bishop \( without papal mandate \) schismatic act fact , code deals offenses divided two sections one deals offenses religion unity church , apostasy , schism , heresy bishop mandate , contrary , offense exercise specific ministry example , case consecrations carried vietnamese archbishop ngo 1976 1983 , although archbishop excommunicated considered committed schismatic act intention breach church simply unjust ludicrous suggest bishops without papal mandate archbishop lefebvre least intent establishing schismatic church schismatic never schismatic archbishop considers correctly church undergoing worst crisis since arian heresy , good church necessary four bishops ensure future society canon law provides situation , even one believes future society could guaranteed without consecrations , fact archbishop believed sincerely could means , canon law states clearly , incurred excommunication furthermore , vatican allows archbishop undermine faith impunity cannot expect catholics pay least attention sanctions great orthodox archbishop whose entire life devoted service church salvation souls dr eric de , president international una association , one best informed church , knows archbishop intimately dr de , like , greater desire see reconciliation mgr lefebvre holy see archbishop 's lifetime quotation statement dr de published 15 february 1989 remnant merits careful study retrospect , road leading consecrations 30 june appears paved grave roman \( , unfortunately , also papal \) omissions eyes informed public cannot hidden attempting present archbishop 's act grave disobedience offense faith ! said today mgr lefebvre erroneous concept tradition , cardinal could , behalf pope , addressed archbishop following words letter 28 july 1987 ardent desire safeguard tradition procuring 'the means live testifies attachment faith time holy father understands concern shares
kempmp phoenix oulu fi \( petri pihko \) subject atheist 's views christianity \( accepting jeesus heart \) organization university oulu , finland lines 135 jason smith \( jasons atlastele com \) wrote discussion begins universe exist \? one laws nature , specifying cause effect seems dictate \( least layman 's mind \) must causal event reasonable alternative exists would argue causality actually property spacetime causes precede effects claim must answer universe \( spacetime \) emerge nothing , science good candidates answer always wondered christians use questions science \( atheism \) cannot answer argument hope appropriate group ask question popular question question origins universe exist , anything , matter \? think question actually split two parts , namely 1 \) existence \? anything exists \? 2 \) universe emerge nothing \? clear science nothing say first question however , meaningful question , \? would say n't consider following die hard skeptic \( human whatever \) attempts doubt one 's existence since easy doubt everything else cannot sure world exists , may mind fooling ever sure exist \? however , possible exist exist \( someone insert appropriate shakespeare quote \) \) exist cannot doubt one 's existence exist doubt one 's existence , would pointless would exist anyway let us return original question \? exist need reasons non existence sure whether anything else exists mind , let us assume world exists independent mind \( objectivity postulate \) question anything exists countered demanding answer question nothing nothingness , non existence actually , questions turn devoid meaning things exist , things n't exist n't exist tautology best seriously doubt god could answer question christians talked said actually , god existence however , see several problems answer first , inevitably leads conclusion god actually existence , good evil , devils angels , us pantheism , christianity another answer god source existence sounds much better , tempted ask god exist , \? god source existence , mean , terms human time , always existed source existence argument sounds like god exist , meta exists , meta existent perspective , created existence think actually , mere twist words best answer heard human reasoning incapable understanding questions atheist , accept answers , since methods second question universe emerge nothing \? belongs domain science , , one , doubt question answered methods many suggested entirely possible universes emerge vacuum \( possibility suggested recent hawking biography see also creation universe , world scientific , 1989 \) however , think sci groups appropriate discussions like far tell , laws nature demand n't true something outside nature \( e , super natural \) true science collection models telling us , , something happens cannot see good reason questions would bound natural things , assuming supernatural domain exists supernatural beings exist , appropriate ask ask exist believe genetic code entirely deciphered lifetimes , see man convert entirely inert material self sustaining , reproducing life , ever \( 've never much prophet , though ca n't even picture new york mind 8 \) n't believe technology would able produce necessary spark life , despite parts available opinion opinion also called namely , living systems somehow fundamentally different inanimate systems christians general adopt position \? would happen scientists announce created primitive life \( say , small bacteria \) lab \? problem prophecy artificial life created , although yet chemical form computer simulations evolution contain systems much alive bacterium , although code electronic , well metabolism see recent book steven levy artificial life quest new creation jonathan cape , london 1992 artificial chemical life around corner , spark life found necessary living systems violate physical laws know n't mind us send prayer behalf research , \? , christ deluding , really nothing worry , eh \? exactly think atheists post evangelical atheist arguments soc religion groups , since people seek find peace religions must allowed gather together would normally asked questions alt atheism talk religion misc , seems many christians read groups petri ' '' petri pihko kem pmp mathematics truth ! ' ' ' ' ' pihatie 15 c finou oulu fi physics rule ' ' ' sf 90650 oulu kempmp game ' finland phoenix oulu fi chemistry game
atterlep vela acs oakland edu \( cardinal ximenez \) subject question bee bothering organization national association disorganized lines 29 wquinnan sdcc13 ucsd edu \( malcusco \) writes problem science often allows us assume know best god endowed us ability produce life sexual relations , example , make availible everyone mean science ride god 's decision alterations , god wills us power decide able children \? men allowed babies , made possible word , yes n't believe physical knowledge great deal impact power god past , god gave us ability create life sexual relations , giving us ability create life vitro fertilization difference two merely cosmetic , even gain ability create universes wo n't begin approach glory god power given test , sure many cases use new abilities , people using sexuality millenia n't heard outcry abolish yet ! matter far extend dominion physical world , n't god 's power 's attempt gain control spiritual world , things ca n't approached science logic , begin interfere god alan terlep scorpion says , 'it 's oakland university , rochester , mi nature ' atterlep vela acs oakland edu
atterlep vela acs oakland edu \( cardinal ximenez \) subject arrogance christians organization national association disorganized lines 39 phs431d vaxc cc monash edu au writes article apr 13 00 08 07 1993 athos rutgers edu , aa888 freenet carleton ca \( mark baker \) writes true athiest 's position proof existence god much people accept church , priests straight scriptures proof , satisfy atheists n't fully explained atheist position many theists believe proof existence god choose believe anyway n't yet found argument atheism ca n't quickly broken unprovable assumptions n't problem \( everybody needs faith \) believe provide purely logical argument nonexistence god , 'd really like see asking us believe blindly \? trying deny part us makes us ask question god exist \? e self awareness reason use ability reason become ignorant animals earth god want us like \? right science reason cannot prove anything however , use believe faith alone since use faith , one picture god \( e g hinduism \) less valid another \( e g christianity \) \? ahh use science reason , faith certain beliefs scientific method example physical laws universe stable observations reality valid basis determination truth objective reality exists logical argument valid way answer questions prove \? alan terlep scorpion says , 'it 's oakland university , rochester , mi nature ' atterlep vela acs oakland edu
atterlep vela acs oakland edu \( cardinal ximenez \) subject right messiahs organization national association disorganized lines 18 desiree bradley mindlink bc ca \( desiree bradley \) writes , knowledge bible , seems christians hard jews christ 's day cautious accepting somebody religious authorities n't accept messiah good point christ hardly person claimed messiah fact , number messiahs active area time roman conquest fall masada many statements made apostles especially repeated attempts give jesus sword \( give military power \) point fact n't realize true nature reign fact many statements bible seen oriented toward explaining new definition messiah jews preached alan terlep scorpion says , 'it 's oakland university , rochester , mi nature ' atterlep vela acs oakland edu
atterlep vela acs oakland edu \( cardinal ximenez \) subject atheists hell organization national association disorganized lines 26 hello , seen two common threads running postings atheists newsgroup , think used explain unfortunately n't direct quotes handy 1 \) atheists believe die , die forever 2 \) god would condemn fail believe eternal death unfair n't see problem ! christians , hell , definition , eternal death exactly atheists expecting die 's reason hell especially awful people , eternal death bad enough literal interpreters bible problem view , since bible talks fires hell personally , n't think people hell thrust flame expect jesus double edged sword issuing mouth treat statements metaphorical alan terlep scorpion says , 'it 's oakland university , rochester , mi nature ' atterlep vela acs oakland edu rushing angels fear tread jody
norris athena mit edu \( richard chonak \) subject tuff christian \? reply norris mit edu organization l'organisation , c'est moi lines 15 article apr 17 01 10 58 1993 2246 geneva rutgers edu , mdbs ms uky edu \( name \) writes parting question would become christian indoctrinated parents \? probably never learned religion make comparative study therefore claim brain washed write one ever became christian except people christian families true , quite people group attest \( including \) richard aquinas chonak , norris mit edu , usenet addict , seeking job change sys mgr vax , sis , cobol , dtr unix , c , x
dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu \( darius lecointe \) subject sabbath admissions 5of5 organization florida state university lines 36 response discussions sabbath , andrew byler commented really followed sola scriptura would worship saturday change sunday law made church , n't acknowledge authority make laws noted protestants consider sunday worship law clh referring faq five sabbath admissions posted bible study group prompted someone send faq argument sabbath part ceremonial law , like rest n ceremonial law binding christians cannot show , scripture , weekly sabbath part ceremonial laws post text reply investigate context accept sabbath binding christians , day worship falls category items individual christians \( since worship nature group activity \) churches free decide churches also decide sin \? interesting divine imperative course must establish rules operation cannot creative god explicitly spoken darius , normal protestant interpretation , sunday law , worshipping another day sin churches free decide day meet , free decide hour would sin worship day , belong church worships sunday show monday , probably worship alone clh
gilham csl sri com \( fred gilham \) subject poem organization computer science lab , sri international , menlo park , ca lines 145 sophomore \( romans 1 22 \) sophomore says , truth \? '' turns admiration peers modern daring liberating modern daring liberating chant sophomore , american n't know modern skeptical cynical asked , modern skeptical cynical politician \( appointed elected \) happened live two thousand years ago like many politicians cared less ideals results less ends means less anything keeping job \( head \) might call bit brutal though would kinder \( doubt stalin , let nobody go , laughed \) n't like job perhaps longer hoped better \( feared worse , except regarding head \) jews heads win , tails lose brought forth madman , first impulse play roman ``i find nothing wrong , see '' mentioned heart froze killed madman 'd start riot lose job \( head \) saved king jews 'd piss caesar lose job \( head \) wife told nothing righteous n't tell anything n't already figured ``not jurisdiction ! take see herod ! '' \( happened town \) herod appreciated courtesy n't worried sent sharp fool \( suddenly n't much say , funny people lose pressure \) back attire proper royal state ass covered herod problem , caesar certainly wo n't fool king whatever world wants long 's caesar 's letting go , '' said shout \( looks like 'll last one \) crowd 's reaction puzzled really wanted dead n't want king jews , wanted instead \( , josephus records , got \) oh well , thought , look 'll get next time get say ``we king caesar ! '' killing madman , hell , 'll kill ten day pilate fun little joke short point went always someone gets caught gears government 's scientific explanation \( doubt \) rumors \( day \) n't end tomb roman guard sophomore n't know n't recognize kindred spirit \( truth either , admits \) guess n't learned much two thousand years fred gilham gilham csl sri com peace better war 's hell war hell makes sense walker , second coming
rexlex fnal fnal gov subject assurance hell organization fnal ad net lines 139 dreamed great judgment morning , trumpet blown dreamed sinners gathered judgment white throne oh weeping wailing lost told fate cried rock mountains prayed , prayers late soul put salvation , tonight 'll get saved time think religion , alas , found time die saw great white throne , protest saying fear hell good motivation , yet jesus thought paul thought paul said , knowing therefore , terror lord , persuade men today , much evangelism nothing soft soap nothing evangelical n't tell people anymore , 's thing sin 's place hell jayne said , n't mean come strong hit people head baseball bat yet fact remains , place called hell place fearful god died save us experience whatever , christians , , whatever win people lord , reason , keep going outer darkness jesus , mt 25 , tells us n't prepare hell people prepared devil angels bible read anywhere , god predestined anybody go hell l moody use say elect whosoever whosoever wont 's whether 's theologically sound , could n't defend , practical jesus said people israel , ye would , may students bible , heck may christians ever said somebody , n't believe hell believe religion jesus know jesus talked hell heaven ! oh believe religion sermon mount find hell taught jesus sermon mount 'll read jesus talked tree cast fire several times talks hell judgment fact , synoptics , matthew , mark luke , jesus talks hell isaiah moses john baptist , though , jesus , son god great beloved one preached hell loved people n't want see go , hell jesus preached vain lord jesus , angry baptist preacher , said , worm never dies , fire never goes jesus said jesus called hell fire jesus used word , condemnation condemnation , men love darkness rather light deeds evil jesus said get across loving , dying jesus preached hell \? , went hell 's calgary lord cross , darkness fell called hell , outer darkness idea hell place gambling , drunks getting drunk , prostitutes bodies \? 's hell hell 's party 's fellowship called outer darkness outer away god darkness god light cross , made sin god treated jesus way sinners treated 's thought son would say , awesome thought god , god hast thou forsaken \? hell isolation 's fellowship hell 's friendship hell 's loving embrace hell 's hand shake hell 's word encouragement hell thirst goes much deeper physical thirst hell eternal craving satisfaction man whose life lived drugs , eternally man whose life lived lust woman 's body , eternally satisfied one theologian put way think deserves merit hell \? hell kind environment matches internal condition lost recent post , trying remember founder word life ministries 've remembered name , jack , found illustration gave n't illustration talking barber barber 's wife daughter recently saved commenting jack sing songs read bible verses , ca n't stand ! jack , think god would send hell \? jack answered saying , yes think would ! course barber said , mean well ca n't stand living home wife daughter sing hymns praises god , would heaven 'll eternity \? 'd miserable god loves , 'd put would match really makes man think crucifixion jesus christ fact necessitates eternal existence hell cross performed eternal act n't ask , n't know god infinite eternal died , died infinite eternal death eternal act purchased eternal life whosoever wills suffered eternal judgment lot people would like around hell saying everybody going saved eventually bible says , 'll separate sheep goats die 's period god heaven , bible says appointed unto men die comes judgment believe annihilation die , like mosquito 're squished , rev told eternal existence hell heaven n't enjoy making kind statements maybe n't enjoy listening , preach entire word god place called hell could give one verse scripture could give hope people n't going , 'd give , n't found fact place called hell , fact god god holiness must judge sin , fact made us kind creatures therefore 're responsible , fact placed us uni verse purpose design behind , fact sin awful thing fact god went hell save us hell leads us two applications 1 \) 've already mentioned christian , must worn others good enough stop fix flat tire tell around bend bridge knowing therefore terror lord , persuade men 2 \) n't accepted jesus savior , 're taking awful chance say jehovah witnesses \( longer frequent door \) , right wrong , lived good life die cease exist , right wrong , die suffer eternal damnation n't mean make fun point , like dirty harry said , 've got ask , 'do feel lucky \? ' well \? man 's got know limitations n't one whosoever wont 's yet sinner , died 's greater love , man lay life another rex
dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu \( darius lecointe \) subject sabbath admissions 5of5 organization florida state university lines 21 find interesting never answered questions posed goes make statements make shudder established two tiered god one set rules jews \( people \) another set saved gentiles \( people \) would god discriminate \? jew accepts jesus live gentile rules god one set rules people paul never law fact says repeatedly faith establishes rather annuls law paul 's point germane jews greeks law never used instrument salvation please combine ceremonial moral laws one matt 5 14 19 christ plainly says came say saying jews 's benefit christ must politician , speaking sides mouth paul said , learned christ forget theology , jesus says excuses hold court law earth , far less god 's judgement hall darius
dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu \( darius lecointe \) subject sabbath admissions 5of5 organization florida state university lines 13 , normal protestant interpretation , sunday law , worshipping another day sin churches free decide day meet , free decide hour would sin worship day , belong church worships sunday show monday , probably worship alone clh totally agree sentiment go advocate violating god set \? question answered scripture worship every day , long work god says sabbath mine darius
jkellett netcom com \( joe kellett \) subject hell organization netcom lines 17 article apr 10 05 33 44 1993 athos rutgers edu mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) writes short poem \( god mercy made fixed pains hell \) , c lewis expresses idea i'm sure current among others , n't able find source even hell expression mercy , god limits amount separation , hence amount agony , one achieve also heard called expression mercy , heaven would far agonizing rejected god joe kellett jkellett netcom com
trajan cwis unomaha edu \( stephen mcintyre \) subject atheists hell organization university nebraska omaha lines 52 atterlep vela acs oakland edu writes hello , seen two common threads running postings atheists newsgroup , think used explain unfortunately n't direct quotes handy 1 \) atheists believe die , die forever true point ask buddhist atheist 2 \) god would condemn fail believe eternal death unfair n't see problem ! christians , hell , definition , eternal death exactly atheists expecting die 's reason hell especially awful people , eternal death bad enough actually , yes , hell eternal death actually , way 've related , 's eternal damnation , sinners feel flames hell supposedly feel flames , would assume i'm still alive , suffering away god literal interpreters bible problem view , since bible talks fires hell personally , n't think people hell thrust flame expect jesus double edged sword issuing mouth treat state ments metaphorical believe jehovah 's witnesses similar view , body sleeps ever n't problem condemned hell either way see , god wants punish honest skepticism \( , saying n't exist \) , certainly would n't changing nature besides , would rather spend eternity hell beside god heaven knowing even one man would spend eternal life scorched wrongdoings stephen atheist libertarian pro individuality pro responsibility jr jazz
let rug nl \( \) subject catholic church poland organization der , groningen , nl lines 10 hello , i'm writing paper role catholic church poland 1989 anyone tell , fill recent books articles \( english , german french \) important role church concerning abortion law , religious education schools , birth control relation church state \( government \) thanx , , let rug nl
jcj tellabs com \( jcj \) subject proof resurection organization huh \? whuzzat \? lines 14 article apr 16 23 15 09 1993 geneva rutgers edu smayo world std com \( scott mayo \) writes think christianity goes flames resurrection ever disproved n't paul write resurrection true , biggest fools \? however , whether believe christ , teachings \( e g love \) , even followed secular level , could great deal alleviate problems see today world even rabid atheist could n't deny jeff johnson jcj tellabs com
petch gvg47 gvg tek com \( chuck petch \) subject daily verse organization grass valley group , grass valley , ca lines 4 let us become weary good , proper time reap harvest give galatians 6 9
bruce liv ac uk \( bruce stephens \) subject sex education organization university liverpool lines 22 joe kellett \( jkellett netcom com \) wrote bits deleted told planned parenthood style values free methods , teach contraceptive technology advise kids make choices , actually increase pregnancy rates posted long article back happy email copy interested research produced results abstinence related curricula found decrease pregnancy rates teens assume reasonable assume aids rate pregnancy rate 'd fascinated see evidence , please send article ! negative side however , suspect simplistic link abstinence education decreased pregnancy , contraceptive education increased pregnancy false us , 'd guess one largest proportion non liberal sex education western world also one highest teenage pregnancy rates \( please correct guess wrong \) bruce stephens bruce liverpool ac uk
rexlex fnal fnal gov subject certainty arrogance organization fnal ad net lines 110 article apr 17 01 11 29 1993 geneva rutgers edu kilroy gboro rowan edu \( dr nancy 's sweetie \) writes someone called `rexlex' claimed way loop , bother explain , preferring instead paraphrase , ramble wittgenstein , say conclusion argument leads relativism answer find time `rexlex' suggested people read silent , francis schaeffer n't think highly , think mr schaeffer grossly overrated many evangelical christians somebody else might like , though , n't let opinion stop reading someone interested opinion , 'd suggest certainty , ludwig wittgenstein darren f provine kilroy gboro rowan edu substantial number talk religion misc readers read wittgenstein , 60 postings would disappear \( understood wittgenstein , 98 would disappear \) \) michael l siemon notice said book called easy reading reason dropped philosphy major ran many simon 's n't know many walking encyclopedia 's ran across philosphy classes problem n't knowing sooooo much average lay person , problem comes become puffed schaeffer fine average lay person writting suppose would criticised john gospel simple 've talked schaeffer one one 've lectures man drilled philosphy students prof 's secular well christian universities \( nd alone would fill \) answers enough prof 's often taken back caused think question saw time time different open forums yes , books large , well , simplistic certainly n't grad level reading must get high horses comes recommended reading seriously think people would get first chapter wittgenstein \? may say secular scientist another time also , one must finally get beyond doubt caused insistent one cannot live life constantly doubt base look , christian wholeheartedly supports genuine rationality must add qualification give balance christianity second none keeping reason place never know value thing know limits put unlimited value something end exhaust value ! thoroughly rational least bit also explains curious fact rationalism , christian faith , leads irrationality forget limits thing , fly face reality condem learn simple ironic lesson life without limits less less limits often stated , freedom without form soon becomes form w freedom let 's put another way rationality faith opposed absurdity quarrel mystery think tell difference two let christianity 's contention rationalism much reason , little else christian comes faith understanding trust go hand hand , continues faith trust may sometimes called go without understanding principle suspended judgment applies time christian faith let god god , must suspend judgment say , father understand trust n't read objections statement n't saying understand , trust anyway means understand situation understand trust anyway therefore trust understand even though former mystery rationality indistinguishable absurdity latter statement rationality faith walking hand hand mystery faith principle suspended judgment irrational leap faith walk faith believers cannot always know , know trust god knows makes difference , one obvious snag parted company philosophy eminently reasonable theory rather bit difficult practice practice pressure mystery acts faith like insistent 3 year old n't would like know know feel must know cannot know one produces frustration curiosity denied leads genuine anguish specifically poorer understanding coming faith necessary understand everything coming faith know trust god , always need know exactly god order trust failing grasp , may able trust , anything understand may count able trust , hand , know trust god , able trust situations understand \( many xian leaders teach christian window back head allows understanding every foot fall \) god may ambiguous , inherently contradictory ! may mystery us , mystery inscrutable would absurdity friend , conclusion theory practice rex
mserv mozart cc iup edu \( mail server \) subject phone number wycliffe translators uk lines 37 i'm concerned recent posting wbt sil thought 'd pretty much denounced right wing organization involved ideological manipulation cultural interference , including vietnam south america commission mexican academia denounced 1979 covert political ideological institution used u govt instrument control , regulation , penetration , espionage repression concern group may seen acceptable even praiseworthy readers soc religion christian 's important christians n't immediately accept every christian organization automatically reproach mp good heavens , mean good friend wes collins , took wife two small children jungles , despite dangers primitive conditions armed guerillas , indigenous people groups could bible native languages young man led bible studies church , daily demonstrated declared deep abiding faith lord love mean really sneaky spy whose real reason going exploit oppress ignorant unsuspecting masses \? imagine surprise ! never would thought terrible deceit discovered \? exactly cultural interference caught committing \? attempting persuade locals gods false gods , sacrifices \( including human sacrifices cases \) vain \? destroying traditional lifestyles introducing steel tools , medical vaccines , durable clothes \? oh way , \? terribly shocked hear friend wes , seemed nice , really deceitful tool devil please provide specific documentation charge risk may believe otherwise mark
rexlex fnal fnal gov subject hell 2 black sabbath organization fnal ad net lines 70 looking files weekend , ran across lyrics various rock groups content two black sabbath 's master reality 'll say much music '60 's early '70 's , least asked questions significance jethro another asked wrote things caused one wonder rex forever ever thought soul saved \? perhaps think 're dead stay grave god thought within read book school \? think death lose breath keep cool \? would like see pope end rope \? think 's fool \? well seen truth yes seen light 've changed ways 'll prepared 're lonely scared end days could 're afraid friends might say knew believed god \? realize god way love mind small fall pack wherever run \? still sneer death near say may well worship sun \? think true people like crucified christ think sad opinion one voiced sure day near say n't believe \? chance turned ca n't retrieve perhaps 'll think say god dead gone open eyes , realize one one save sin hate still hear \? yes ! think 's late lord world 're searching mind n't know start ca n't find key fit lock heart think know never quite sure soul ill find cure world made someone choose evil ways instead love made master world exist soul took even missed lord world , evil possessor , lord world , 's confessor ! think 're innocent 've nothing fear n't know , say , n't clear \? turned worldly greed pride turn turn die \?
christopher williams edu \( \) subject divine providence vs murphy 's law organization williams college , , lines 21 article apr 19 05 13 28 1993 athos rutgers edu rolfe junior dsu edu \( tim rolfe \) writes romans 8 28 \( rsv \) know everything god works good love , called according purpose murphy 's law anything go wrong , quite familiar commentary murphy 's law romans 8 28 \? matter , appropriate humor contradicted scripture \? christians non christians laugh quote something feel , know true us christians know little better ! \) god trust ! christopher email williams edu
tbrent bank ecn purdue edu \( timothy j brent \) subject atheists hell organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 31 article apr 19 05 14 08 1993 athos rutgers edu atterlep vela acs oakland edu \( cardinal ximenez \) writes n't see problem ! christians , hell , definition , eternal death exactly atheists expecting die 's reason hell especially awful people , eternal death bad enough literal interpreters bible problem view , since bible talks fires hell personally , n't think people hell thrust flame expect jesus double edged sword issuing mouth treat statements metaphorical phew ! takes load n't want live forever wish christians held view ca n't walk across campus spring without fire brimstone preachers really think metaphor limited , least respect teaching children 's criminal put ideas young trusting mind besides , rely positive aspects religion win faith \? tim timothy j brent man come know true happiness , brent bank ecn purdue edu accepts small part infinite universe purdue university spinoza materials science engineering paraphrased
johnsd2 rpi edu \( dan johnson \) subject intolerance eternal life etc reply johnsd2 rpi edu organization sun microsystems lines 186 apologize article slightly confusing , late draft n't make moderators quote screens violence , remember article responding still make sence article 1850 geneva rutgers edu , jsledd ssdc sas upenn edu \( james sledd \) writes hi xian netters , god bless , hello netters \? feel left \( deletia table content , intro , homosexuality incredibly chopped post deletia incorrect attributions uh , attributions wrong , responding article , dan johnson 1st one article 28388 athos rutgers edu , jayne mmalt guild org \( jayne kulikauskas \) writes deletia free gifts moderator fiat find dissatisfied little purposes manufacture little cosmic sense ah , cosmic sence lives cosmic sence \? ! , n't even exist practical purposes hardly use cosmic sence stuff guide life would say n't bother luckily mortals , many scale talk human sence , big purposes even greatest great long gone , historical worn wind , eventually turned dust influence aristotle , , alexander , countless others still us , although works perished changed course history , humanity exists , deeds cannot said come nothing , even utterly forgotten mankind one day perish one day , surely \( well , unless believe second coming , \) time make difference without transcends physical , without god , pointless end end must end , point muster end comes , nobody ask , gee , n't think james sledd 's deeds gonna make much difference , , ya know \? already made difference , great small , end must ends eternal worthwhile \? people able live , little purposes \( success , money , power , change , helping others \) suffice little eye beholder , course suppose never think cosmic scale , least able put minds n't doubt thought cosmic scale seem mean much us , , today , comforting know reality illusion would find comforting perhaps merely definitions 's think relevant terms reality real illusion real , seems real objectively existing reality illusion would mean , real real , seems objectively exists , objectively exist , seem objectively exist conclude , unless want get contradiction , things objectively exist problem would like say objectively exist , nothing else ergo sum perhaps mean , rather mean objective reality humans bad , far know true true reality underneath physical spirit reality illusion , n't true reality illusion \? true reality spirit , make spirit illusion well \? distinctly confused , getting positively buddhist world school sorts , learn grow , souls mature one hell statement , although perhaps true mean imply intended \? , please show true , please explain give purpose anything gives purpose little purposes , \? would n't world school w intent idea make world preparation greater purpose , rather purpose takes pressure pressure \? 's necessary make life success human terms 're really learn necessary success human terms , unless goals either include require indeed , many people set goals include success human terms understand check yer buddhist monk type guy nirvana , thing 's important progress , grow , persist , learn love others express love , especially 's dificult honest effort rewarded god , knows limitations learning love goal \? happens fail goal \? \? god \? mysterious purpose \? deletia question answer deleted mostly quote two serious questions invitations discussion 1 nature eternal life \? 2 mortals locked space time conceive \? possible answer 2 best metaphor analogy question 2a best metaphor \? 'll crack \( 1 \) nature eternal life neatly described name concept life without death , life without end \( 2 \) put together word describe , cannot imagine \( 2a \) metaphor adequate next eternity could understand either \( suspect \) dan johnson god said jeeze , dull dull genesis 0 0 opinions probably show know
pharvey quack kfu com \( paul harvey \) subject sabbath admissions 5of5 organization duck pond public unix 1 408 249 9630 , log 'guest' lines 194 article apr 19 05 12 10 1993 athos rutgers edu pharvey quack kfu com \( paul harvey \) writes priority direct word jesus matt5 14 19 \? paul begins romans 14 someone weak faith count one weak faith \? count one weak faith \? read jesus' word matt5 14 19 \? doubt mind right sin \( greek missing mark \) \? doubt mind right missing mark \? however 'd like clear think 's unambiguous proof regular christian worship first day indicated , responses passages cited whereas , ten commandments jesus' words matt5 14 19 fairly clear , \? clear doubts \? , n't believe paul god important first step realization paul human however paul writing largely gentile audience yes , writing speaking audience best , weak faith could read , unfamiliar hebrew scriptures even septuagint form paul adapted message bible largely uneducated market granted , market still exists today , count part \? weak faith missing mark \( \) best education allows best \? law regarded jews time \( \) binding jews , gentiles rules binding human beings \( called laws \) , quite minimal let make clear law none genesis , exodus , leviticus , numbers , deuteronomy jesus say law matt5 14 19 \? jesus say law applies jews gentiles law \? issue church face jesus' death gentiles wanted follow christ decision impose law n't say law abolished simply acknowledged fact n't apply gentiles acknowledged fact \? basis \? extra biblical point \? also acknowledge bhagavad gita relevant text gentiles , see bible magus east observed star signs jesus \? bother texts \? follow whatever church say \? thus contradiction mat 5 n't see say straight face follower christ , follow someone else \? saying words jesus apply jews \? far tell , paul jewish christians continue participate jewish worship sabbath thus continued obey law jewish paul changed name saul \? issue \( \) gentile christians , covered law \( least ceremonial aspects \) says gentile christians covered first five books \? says gentile christians ten commandments \? jesus dealt mostly jews think reasonably assume mat 5 directed jewish audience 're implying jesus' words valid jews really mean say \? realize rather large portions bible \? read jesus' words , ever consider maybe , maybe jesus talking , matter race sex \? hebrew scriptures gospel accounts jesus directed jews , translated english \? interact gentiles times \( e g centurion whose slave healed couple others \) terms used describe centurion \( see luke 7 \) suggest god , e gentile followed god , adopted whole jewish law paul would call , one weak faith jewish elders worthy person , jesus accepted seems indicate jesus accepted prevailing view gentiles need accept law important 1 \) recorded word jesus 2 \) indications deduce bible \? jesus god jews , god humankind race sex \? however 's involved want compare jesus paul law order get full picture role law , come grips paul 's apparent rejection law , relates jesus' law least read paul , says law serves purpose certain sense superceded understanding paul compare word jesus christian pauline \? , issue n't one abolition law middle discussion , paul notes might understood way , assures us 's intends say rather , sees law primarily present convict people sinfulness ultimately 's impossible standard , one superceded christ , understanding paul jesus say law impossible standard \? jesus say superceded law \? christian pauline \? paul 's comments world 's clearest , everyone agrees reading acknowledge reading paul jesus say \? deny matt5 14 19 quite clear meaning \? christian pauline \? interesting thing notice even radical position entail abolition law still remains uncompromising standard , iota dot may removed purpose sin , 's important relaxed jesus say purpose law conviction sin \? however christians , 's end ultimately live faith , law please reread matt5 14 19 christian pauline \? jesus' interpretations emphasize intent law , stay away ceremonial details saying ten commandments ceremonial details \? paul 's conclusion similar talks law superceded , specific examples gives involve ceremonial law , circumcision sabbath quite concerned maintaining moral standards call observance sabbath , day lord rested , ceremonial \? circumcision superceded christians \? christian pauline \? doubt mind sin , least case jesus deal explicitly question whether law binding gentiles 's cite evidence way jesus dealt centurion general jewish views , dependent largely studies pauline theology , one h j , one whose author ca n't come moment authors jews also , various christian non christian jews discussed issue newsgroups mat 5 19 clear law still valid say applies gentiles yes , say specific requirement worship sabbath ten commandments ceremonial detail , 're looking obligations gentiles similarly circumcision i'm sure quite else say subject , 's unfortunate jesus n't answer question directly however know \( 1 \) 1st cent jewish approach , \( 2 \) jesus dealt least one gentile , \( 3 \) jesus' disciples dealt issue became acute \( i'm referring acts 15 paul \) given agreement , n't see 's big problem clh
vipunen hut fi \( antti \) subject atheists hell organization helsinki university technology , finland lines 40 apr 19 05 14 08 1993 athos rutgers edu atterlep vela acs oakland edu \( cardinal ximenez \) writes hello , seen two common threads running postings atheists newsgroup , think used explain unfortunately n't direct quotes handy 1 \) atheists believe die , die forever correctly people die , cease exist 2 \) god would condemn fail believe eternal death unfair n't see problem ! christians , hell , definition , eternal death exactly atheists expecting die idea 've gotten christians , hell like heaven afterlife e , n't cease exist , subjected eternal torture \( well , 's orthodox idea anyway eternal death prefer \) atheists n't believe sort afterlife literal interpreters bible problem view , since bible talks fires hell personally , n't think people hell thrust flame expect jesus double edged sword issuing mouth treat state ments metaphorical think 's safe say hell never intended metaphorical certainly equivalent exist christian concepts indeed metaphors , idea hell 20th century interpretation , course , nice see even christianity might evolve fit worldview modern age , fear church accept understandably , per , accept hell metaphor , 're one step closer turning god metaphor well antti hut fi 3 stel fi helsinki
futon webo dg com \( taber \) subject soc religion christian arrogance christians lines 50 previous message aa888 freenet carleton ca \( mark baker \) writes n't think belief right everyone else 's belief wrong , n't belief simply belief means stuff deleted seems pretty definition belief beliefs things find true based experience world experience includes study things may experienced directly even , understand studies extent relate study back experienced means beliefs god directly related experience god experienced god , try make sense experience study religion read bible find things echo already experienced build beliefs also find things n't match experience n't make false n't match experience maybe understand stuff later n't know maybe beliefs wrong change beliefs someone else beliefs different mine , neither us necessarily wrong someone else making sense different set experiences even though different explanations beliefs , talk might even discover underlying experiences similar people approach religion truth exist one form , usually single revelation dogmatic belief system , arrogant appear outsider another approach possible , however god mystery trying solve mystery , look evidence available try arrive best understanding based evidence new evidence may cause change understanding encounter someone different belief , n't threat , opportunity perhaps discover something new mystery never fully comprehend peace taber william taber taber dg com opinions expressed data general corp futon webo dg com mine alone may westboro , mass change without notice dreams laid rest , get 's second best , 's hard get enough david
schnitzi cs ucf edu \( mark schnitzius \) subject atheists hell organization university central florida lines 33 atterlep vela acs oakland edu \( cardinal ximenez \) writes 1 \) atheists believe die , die forever 2 \) god would condemn fail believe eternal death unfair n't see problem ! christians , hell , definition , eternal death exactly atheists expecting die well , think christians believe somehow continue death , contradicts atheists \( included \) believe , namely , contained brain , dies brain dies 's reason hell especially awful people , eternal death bad enough fear pain often comes process dying , since wo n't around worry , n't fear eternal death literal interpreters bible problem view , since bible talks fires hell something 've always found confusing nerve die physical body , would flame hurt \? one wail teeth lungs teeth \? mark schnitzius schnitzi cs ucf edu university central florida
conditt tsd arlut utexas edu \( paul conditt \) subject latest branch davidians organization applied research laboratories , university texas austin lines 28 probably seen news time read , branch davidian compound morning 6 00 , feds punched holes compound walls using tank started using non lethal tear gas shortly noon , 2 cult members seen setting fire compound far , 20 30 people seen outside compound fate 60 70 people unknown , neither fate 17 children inside compound burn ground koresh , times claimed messiah , backed claimed prophet , promised several times come peacefully demands met first , demanded message broadcast radio , , n't come claimed waiting message god finally , said god told needed decipher mystery 7 seals revelation , finished , 'd come finished first one , n't work anyone knows since federal agents warn n't come , would subjected tear gas think 's really sad many people put faith mere man , even claim son god , prophet think underscores importance putting faith things eternal knowing scriptures say mean , instead relying others , even others learned mean well paul conditt
johnsd2 rpi edu \( dan johnson \) subject atheists hell reply johnsd2 rpi edu organization sun microsystems lines 38 article athos rutgers edu , atterlep vela acs oakland edu \( cardinal ximenez \) writes seen two common threads running postings atheists newsgroup , think used explain unfortunately n't direct quotes handy 1 \) atheists believe die , die forever 2 \) god would condemn fail believe eternal death unfair n't see problem ! christians , hell , definition , eternal death exactly atheists expecting die problem hell , permanent death indeed atheists \( generally \) expect neither fair unfair , might well argue whether made mostly carbon water fair however , atheists claim hell unfair talking fire brimstone place endless suffering , necessarily includes eternal existance \( life , dunno , sort continuation \) thing granted , clearly feel hell death , sentiment near tell idea god condemns ordinary death , problem problem gods hide humans torture unbelievers eternally guessing right deletia hell , dan johnson god said jeeze , dull dull genesis 0 0 opinions probably show know
johnsd2 rpi edu \( dan johnson \) subject accepting jeesus heart reply johnsd2 rpi edu organization sun microsystems lines 45 article athos rutgers edu , seanna bnr ca \( seanna \( \) watson \) writes article apr 14 03 07 38 1993 5420 athos rutgers edu johnsd2 rpi edu writes article 28388 athos rutgers edu , jayne mmalt guild org \( jayne kulikauskas \) writes effective substance abuse recovery programs involve meeting peoples' spiritual needs might want provide evidence next time make claim like 12 step programs \( like alcoholics anonymous \) , one steps involves higher power aa 12 step abuse recovery programs acknowledged among effective deletia seem rather unclear asking please show effective substance recovery programs involve peoples' spiritual needs , rather merely attempting fill peoples' spiritual needs percieved people , , r c regulars , snoopy probably involve defining needs \( clear \) showing things exist filled tack might take say fulfilling spiritual needs means acknowledging higher power sort , show systems require , work better otherwise identical systems correlation would help , point might demonstrating swapping one crutch \( however , feel religion usually better crutch , usually poisonous ! \) \) hope clarification , question answerable actually know 12 step program , question , rather tries , makes difference dan johnson god said jeeze , dull dull genesis 0 0 opinions probably show know
maridai comm mot com \( marida ignacio \) subject refusing divine peace alive prayer \? \( question mary \) organization trunking fixed lines 147 's like refusing 'god 's kingdom one jesus' revelation century , thing old days people refuse believe messengers even alive earth , refuse talking somebody else \? \( paraphrased \) knowledge believers accumulated , would think would enough detect ones opposed man signs , miracles , afraid god \? signs open hearts mind thinking evil \? well , faith god evil \? true peace evil \? true love divine pure evil \? ca n't someone accept god wants fulfillment generous love jesus' never ending forgiveness turn back salvation \? refusing god 's messenger truth \? mother christ \? brings us fears others think say us \? , contrary , could pleasing god \? fears \? fears judged wrong \( wrt mainstream standard right \) \? ca n't tolerate non mockery ridicule us sake peace , love obedience god \? humbling lessons left us martyrs saints \? 'd rather engage never ending bickering disproof 's opinion looking 's mistakes sake arguments , instead communion one body christ makes us go blind truth god powerful people wrote written ages \? faith god limited \? words literature muster \? prevents us going beyond saved extend god 's rich love others \? eyes wide open see continuously sees faith , hope love glorify gives us indications signs miracles \( ordinary common divinely inspired \) everywhere \? n't like atheist agnostic 's view ordinary earth caused anything supernatural \? holy mother comes back remind us must really accept prayer changes course things prayers even wars prevented continues often attitude dear children , days prayed much , hands remained empty hesitate proclaiming needs done prayer , conversion , peace , , fasting , holy mass , living life gospel brings \? \? \? world \? , mother says start family good example live word worry going good use many \? holy mother says fruits , leave lord , worry anything anyone lord although holy mother insist free bow freedom god gives follows surprised say decide god yet , see lived day constantly conveys take life toward god way experience lord behavior pray one time decide saved , talk write god , etc holy mother warns satan \( serpent \) always trying dissuade turn away peace plan prayer \( rev 12 17 , dragon became angry woman went wage war rest , keep god 's commandments , bear witness jesus \) fear hate god 's current messenger true peace , love motherly protector anti christ \? one communism , wars , famine evils serpent brings upon us \? obedient blessed new eve \? mother warns us prepared strong satan \? n't renewed faith , hope , love , peace obedience wherever messenger shared blessings god given good purpose \? choose blind \? fear truth god giving us chance sharing christ 's ever forgetting forgiveness us obedient mother \? mother consecrated task reverse disobedient harm example done ancient eve preparing new eden immaculate heart new eden sanctuary \( womb \) next coming judgement righteous lord , jesus christ lamb bride n't give hand exhaustive job preparing us second coming son conceived without sin bear son god womb \? fear true peace , love renewed faith obedience god mary faithfully brings god 's children \? protecting flock \( rest \) greedy dragon present righteous members son 's coming apparitions miracles resulted worthy belief prayer guidance holy spirit , course , approval church authorities , aware true divinely inspired ones specifically , ones scripture also , lady reminds us recommendation silence prayers speak prayers , able hear god \? allow room answer , speak encourages us \( motherly \) continue exuberant faith , hope love jesus , constantly mere emotions , deep , constant obedience jesus , beloved son acknowledgement need part lives let 's wait last minute renew faith life god wants us live wo n't enough time late nowadays , mary says , pray , pray , pray peace reconciliation , children peace within first promote peace others without peace , fully accept son think 's ordinary lady 's good mother messenger god nice enough share god 's kingdom us son experience mary , assured lamb always succeeds note enclosed quotes latest news number 10 , june , 1991 fr , new mother eden , pure preparing sanctuary true christians cleansing us peace god 's kingdom come bring us loving , protective obedient church may belong one body son , jesus christ , lord go astray perfect completeness pray pray holy spirit guiding us may help strength conquer enemies son prepare us immaculate heart
mserv mozart cc iup edu \( mail server \) subject far good lines 16 may really dumb one , 'll ask anyways christians know never live requirements god , right \? \( may wrong , understanding \) still try n't seem like spending lives trying reach goal never achieve \? know saved faith works , mean saved n't anything \? think james tells us faith without works dead \( paraphrase \) work \? short reply never achieve perfect health , yet always strive n't seek god 's 're forced , follow way way best reason 's hard flawed , 's unreasonable seek follow way want improve lives mark
mussack austin ibm com \( christopher mussack \) subject tuff christian \? organization ibm austin lines 66 please realize frequently getting trouble orthodoxy , opinion article apr 17 01 10 58 1993 2246 geneva rutgers edu , mdbs ms uky edu \( name \) writes moreover buddha says intrinsically good \( christ 's sinners \) never thought two ideas people might quibble intrinsically means reason sinners behave good message christ us good , great , approach perfection , albeit perhaps different technique claim buddhism teaches realize greatness , sin peter problem walking water little doubt crept n't david ask 8th psalm man god care , made little lower angels \? probably exagerate mind little kid david , probably exagerate gigantic monster , david 's power easily defeated 's remember rich young man comes jesus asks enter kingdom , jesus says follow commandments always picture smug look face says 's done whole life , probably anticipating messiah instead jesus gives harder task , sell everything follow jesus raising bar say anyone 's hard even rich people jesus says anyone , god 's help jesus says avoid killing people , avoid getting angry people avoid committing adultery , control desires realize main point , wonder people see parting question would become christian indoctrinated parents \? probably never learned religion make comparative study therefore claim brain washed \( please forgive generalizations make \) point hard religions good one , parting question tough question think muslims worship god , learn name submission hindus buddhists , etc claim god impersonal god personal impersonal \? say yes , think little answer whichever greater think greater personal entity , individual consciousness , 're right might cultural bias think must admit god 's personal nature far beyond conception impersonal nature beyond hindu 's conception somehow jesus could fit hindu maybe would n't problem , though hard imagine former \( present \) eastern religion members could comment \? chris mussack
mussack austin ibm com \( christopher mussack \) subject sabbath admissions 5of5 organization ibm austin lines 12 general question since world discovered round , definition saturday , ambiguous , least arbitrary would someone answer \? also , calendar changed \( gregorian julian \? \) day week changed date \? points days chris mussack change , change 7 day weekly cycle , months dates clh
shellgate ! llo uu4 psi com \( larry l overacker \) subject sspx schism \? organization shell oil lines 99 article apr 17 01 11 35 1993 geneva rutgers edu jhpb sarto budd lake nj us \( joseph h buehler \) writes descriptions true false obedience obedience solely matter compliance refusal nature commands must also taken account enough consider someone 's compliance refusal say whether obedient disobedient also take consideration whether commands good bad ask would echo question i'm trying contentious assuming pope universal jurisdiction authority , authority rely upon decisions \? prevents choosing doctrine like saying papal disagreement error resolved time \? especially true , since councils bishops basically stood pope appears much lies heart matter disagreements tradition tradition , also authority discipline question supporters sspx way positions respect church reforms could change conformed pope \? \( assuming pope 's position change leaders sspx n't jointly make choice \) , appears claiming infallible teaching authority adopt view i'm wrong , can't wrong , 's way 'll change mind , must change , 've either left catholic church left orthodox church recognize papal authority jurisdiction viewing authority present bishop , ecumenical councils regard subsequent development doctrines regarding papal authority jurisdiction separation bishop rome orthodox church without going merits great schism , least orthodox agree split occurred , n't appear semantic games like 's pope , n't recognize effective words aside , appears de facto split \? another arian heresy , complete weak popes \? sspx priests modern martin \? well , way answer examine saying , traditional teaching church sould argue second coming real traditional teaching church simple matter east west would separated 900 years many catholics decide side pope soundness , papacy infallible , eventually pope straighten thought teaching church allow error teachings regarding faith morals even short term ` may wrong , i'm roman catholic \) would effect pope making ex cathedra statement regarding sspx situation \? would honored \? , get around formal doctrine infallibility \? , i'm trying contentions , i'm trying understand since i'm orthodox , 've got real vested interest outcome , one way schism superset disobedience \( refusal obey legitimate command \) schismatics disobedient 's superset , n't work way around schismatics mere fact sspx priests n't comply holy father 's desires n't make schismatics command legitimate sspx view pope 's commands legitimate \? slippery slope problem according traditional theology holy orders , episcopal consecration confer jurisdiction power order ability sacraments true enough jurisdiction must someone else power confer \( pope \) society bishops , knowing traditional theology quite well , take great pains avoid jurisdiction anyone simply confer sacraments require bishop one could argue establishing non geographic jurisdiction n't know 's even concept problem catholic circles larry overacker \( llo shell com \) lawrence overacker shell oil company , information center houston , tx \( 713 \) 245 2965 llo shell com
pucc princeton edu subject losing temper christian trait organization princeton university lines 25 article apr 15 00 58 22 1993 athos rutgers edu ruthless panix com \( ruth \) writes one tell tale signs fruits give non christians away net replies , angry sarcastic net village laugh two professed , born christians verbally attack people might otherwise christianity originally joined discussions spiritually hungry instead answering questions sincerity , net warriors , flame queries although certainly agree basic sentiment ineffective , i'm little disturbed formulation ill temper christian trait seems like false argument say anyone displays trait x must christian could well sinning christian , christian nonetheless anger human , christians human christians get angry defensive react badly like everyone else 's perfect righteousness effort seeking righteousness marks dedicated christian one greatest gifts faith seeking accepting forgiveness failures expecting flawless behavior self others n't christianity 's
weaver chdasic sps mot com \( dave weaver \) subject questions new christian lines 18 previous article , 18669 bach udel edu \( steven r hoskins \) writes one questions would like ask anyone recommend good reading list theological works intended lay person \? would recommend essential christian faith rc 1992 house publishers offers concise explanations , simple language , around 100 different christian doctrines , grouped subject think would particularly good newer christians \( older christians suffering spiritual malnutrition \) , gives biblically sound basic treatment issues , avoiding long depth analysis wait know basics dave weaver fool gives cannot keep weaver chdasic sps mot com gain cannot lose jim elliot \( 1949 \)
fraseraj dcs glasgow ac uk \( andrew j fraser \) subject god shaped hole \( accepting jeesus heart \) organization glasgow university computing science dept lines 14 several people involved trying figure first used phrase god shaped hole clh god shaped vacuum us \( something effect \) generally attributed blaise pascal want know god shaped vacuum inside god fact infinite \( omnipresent \) \? name andrew james fraser e mail fraseraj dcs gla ac uk ese 3h student , university glasgow standard disclaimers n't think 're tad literal metaphor \? clh
mtu edu \( burns \) subject weddings organization macintosh lab , michigan tech university lines 39 hello everyone last week posted similar question alt wedding come search deeper level answer fiance lutheran catholic plan getting married church living plan moving month called catholic priest find needed order marriage recognized church needless say found hard fast rule comes catholic law weddings interpreted i'm pretty sure get married without much problem trick lies letter dispensation 'd like know main differences lutheran catholic religions \? priest something eucharist understood heard two religions combine soon , would two help would appreciated thanks much ! bill bill burns internet mtu edu mac network system administrator applelink shadow apple student rep , mtu first must band together friends , crush enemies paste 've enough catholic protestant arguments recently i'm going accept suggest responses via email , unless clearly non controversial would happy see positive summaries important catholic lutheran beliefs among things , 'd useful faq collection i'm yet another battle clh
merrimack edu subject arrogance christians organization merrimack college , andover , , usa lines 12 article apr 19 05 11 41 1993 athos rutgers edu , aa888 freenet carleton ca \( mark baker \) writes asking believe things visible n't know blindly decide advance reason act evidence five physical senses , cut reason possibility reaching conclusion outside physical sphere someone said thinking could see , would believe someone said believe see ! !
jodfishe silver ucs indiana edu \( joseph dale fisher \) subject far good organization indiana university lines 58 article apr 19 05 13 16 1993 athos rutgers edu armstrng cs dal ca \( stan armstrong \) writes article spss com luomat alleg edu writes may really dumb one , 'll ask anyways christians know never live requirements god , right \? \( may wrong , understanding \) still try n't seem like spending lives trying reach goal never achieve \? know saved faith works , mean saved n't anything \? think james tells us faith without works dead \( paraphrase \) work \? long think good things rather come want , miss point love god come love loves find good , sign try even harder \( romans 7 14 8 2 \) sign seek god aware jesus' presence , usually want wants , love weakness stan armstrong religious studies dept , saint mary 's university , halifax , n armstrong husky1 stmarys ca att ! clyde ! watmath ! water ! dalcs ! armstrng apologize moderator , first quote deleted would like respond goal never achieve , reward comes trying paul makes clear claim continue straining prize philippians 3 10 16 living commands become lukewarm , spit jesus says 1 john 5 3 love god obey obedience straining achieve god course , requires work part quote james , satan n't care believe matters results belief \( works \) one truly faith one believes , one either act faith lying oneself believing first place stan , first line , good point obedience obligation \( \) god desires instead , look many times bible talks situations god 's work work value also , work necessary whenever , feel jesus' presence feelings deceive us however , paul states timothy 2 timothy 4 2 preach word prepared season season correct , rebuke encourage great patience careful instruction also , remember paul tells timothy 1 timothy 4 16 watch life doctrine closely persevere , , save , order work necessary , need sure correct first remember jesus' warning matthew 7 3 5 hypocritical best way accomplish disciple completely thought deed joe fisher
nigel allen canrem com \( nigel allen \) subject library congress host dead sea scroll symposium april 21 22 lines 96 library congress host dead sea scroll symposium april 21 22 national assignment , editor contact john sullivan , 202 707 , lucy , 202 707 library congress washington , april 19 symposium dead sea scrolls held library congress wednesday , april 21 , thursday , april 22 two day program , library baltimore hebrew university , additional support project foundation , held library 's room , sixth floor , madison building seating limited , admission session symposium must requested writing \( see note \) symposium held one week public opening major exhibition , scrolls dead sea ancient library qumran modern scholarship , opens library congress april 29 view fragmentary scrolls archaeological artifacts qumran , loan israel antiquities authority approximately 50 items library congress special collections augment materials exhibition , view madison gallery , aug 1 , made possible generous gift project foundation washington , c dead sea scrolls focus public scholarly interest since 1947 , discovered desert 13 miles east jerusalem symposium explore origin meaning scrolls current scholarship scholars diverse academic backgrounds religious affiliations , offer disparate views , ensuring discussion symposium schedule includes opening remarks april 21 , 2 p , librarian congress james h billington , dr , president , baltimore hebrew university co symposium joseph , professor literature institutions , baltimore hebrew university michael , head , section , library congress , professor emeritus jewish studies , oxford university , give address current state scroll research , focusing stand today second day , closing address given , propose research agenda , picking theme qumran studies might proceed wednesday , april 21 , speakers include eugene ulrich , professor hebrew scriptures , university notre dame chief editor , biblical scrolls qumran , bible qumran michael stone , national endowment humanities distinguished visiting professor religious studies , university richmond , dead sea scrolls 5 p 6 30 p special preview exhibition given symposium participants guests thursday , april 22 , beginning 9 , speakers include , , shrine book , israel museum , jerusalem , qumran archaeological evidence p kyle , albright professor biblical ancient near eastern studies , johns hopkins university , copper scroll lawrence h , professor hebrew studies , new york university , dead sea scrolls history judaism james , professor theology , university notre dame , scrolls early christianity thursday afternoon sessions , 1 30 p , include , associate professor bible ancient jewish thought , university haifa , qumran manuscripts library jewish community norman , professor jewish history civilization , oriental institute , university chicago , current status jerusalem origin scrolls , j l professor emeritus biblical studies , hebrew university , jerusalem , essential renewed qumran studies proceed \? close symposium ample time question answer periods end session also wednesday , april 21 , 11 library congress israel antiquities authority hold lecture esther boyd , consulting , israel antiquities authority , preserving dead sea scrolls room , lm 649 , james madison memorial building , library congress , 101 independence ave , e , washington , c note information admission symposium , please contact , writing , dr michael , head , section , african middle eastern division , library congress , washington , c 20540 30 canada remote systems toronto , ontario 416 629 7000 629 7044
hudson athena cs uga edu \( paul hudson jr \) subject sabbath admissions 5of5 organization university georgia , athens lines 36 article apr 19 05 14 21 1993 athos rutgers edu dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu \( darius lecointe \) writes cannot show , scripture , weekly sabbath part ceremonial laws post text reply investigate context first , ceremonial law term sometimes used framework view scripture look , without going assumption sabbath cannot ceremonial law , see refer sabbath paul writes 2 14 17 christ nailed laws us cross , therefore judged food eat , drink , keeping new moons holy days , keeping sabbath word sabbath verse used throughout new testament refer 7th day scripture get idea ceremonial law , one , sabbath listed among ceremonial laws one goes fundamental assumption sabbath cannot ceremonial law find way around , like saying refer sabbath holy days besides 7th day , sabbath cannot ceremonial law paul careful letters add kind statement anything seen liscence sin writings also , sabbath absent epistles \( except hebrews 4 , talks rest comes faith \? \) surely would big problem first century christians living society rest 7th day especially slaves many new slaves would difficult slaves rest sabbath mandatory mention epistles \? link hudson
jasons atlastele com \( jason smith \) subject atheist 's views christianity \( accepting jeesus heart \) organization atlas telecom inc lines 169 article apr 19 05 13 48 1993 athos rutgers edu kempmp phoenix oulu fi \( petri pihko \) writes jason smith \( jasons atlastele com \) wrote discussion begins universe exist \? one laws nature , specifying cause effect seems dictate \( least layman 's mind \) must causal event reasonable alternative exists would argue causality actually property spacetime causes precede effects must concede cause effect , implies time , time part spacetime , argument would valid could return say infer cause effect relationship unique spacetime , wo n't 8 \) , point moot n't address \( petri addresses \) also concede doubly remiss , asserted reasonable alternative exists , entirely subjective statement part \( one could invalidated , given time discovery scientist \) also understand proving theory necessarily specify happened , proposes likely description phenomena question mistaken understanding \? claim must answer universe \( spacetime \) emerge nothing , science good candidates answer require something christians readily admit fact several candidates none conclusive conclusive evidence , left faith could even argued one hypotheses may one day proven \( best non repeatable event proven \) ask , holds someone today belief correct , except faith \? couple paragraphs deleted summary ask universe exist think question actually split two parts , namely 1 \) existence \? anything exists \? 2 \) universe emerge nothing \? clear science nothing say first question however , meaningful question , \? would say n't consider following apparently many persons hence , religions question anything exists countered demanding answer question nothing nothingness , non existence actually , questions turn devoid meaning things exist , things n't exist n't exist tautology best carefully examine original question , counter question first asks , second request definition n't address something exist , asks define lack existence second question unanswerable indeed , identify something nothing \( n't mutually exclusive terms \) \? identify state non existence \( , nearing limits simple layman 's ability comprehend , would appreciate explanation \) might add , worldview things exist , things n't n't grounded realm non falsifiable , theist 's belief god based assumption reason , something ultimately \( un \) supportable position reason foundation exists soil one claims reason come either , therefore , reason former satisfactory answer , done , satisfied , need doctor latter , search beginning seriously doubt god could answer question time tell 8 \) christians talked said actually , god existence however , see several problems answer first , inevitably leads conclusion god actually existence , good evil , devils angels , us pantheism , christianity agreed would lead question definition christianity well another answer god source existence sounds much better , tempted ask god exist , \? god source existence , mean , terms human time , always existed source existence preclude existence seeks identify qualities \( implying exists qualities , btw \) best answer heard human reasoning incapable understanding questions atheist , accept answers , since methods like theist , come statement faith , position assumes evidence hand conclusive note , arguing scientific endeavor , science useful understanding universe exist differ atheist matter perspective seek understand exists understand appreciate art creator also discovered science inadequate tool answer appears pihko agrees \( shall see \) tool inadequate answer question preclude question asserting invalid question provide answer far tell , laws nature demand n't true something outside nature \( e , super natural \) true science collection models telling us , , something happens cannot see good reason questions would bound natural things , assuming supernatural domain exists supernatural beings exist , appropriate ask ask exist apologies using come pre existence become existence pre spacetime become spacetime come admission science fails answer \? ca n't answered realm modern science , make question invalid \? n't believe technology would able produce necessary spark life , despite parts available opinion opinion also called namely , living systems somehow fundamentally different inanimate systems christians general adopt position \? would happen scientists announce created primitive life \( say , small bacteria \) lab \? suppose would thing galileo vindicated \( someone starts jumping screaming inquisition ! , note said vindicated certainly hope 've gotten beyond shooting messenger stage \) pihko present good point though may need ask individual christian base faith \? shaken production evidence sacred cows seek understand new discovery truly disagrees god said \( continues say \) word \? ask \? \( apologies budweiser company 8 \) jason jason smith jasons atlastele com i'm young enough know everything 1x1
mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) subject 'just justifiable war' exist \? organization ai programs , university georgia , athens lines 32 thoughts non pacifist side \( 1 \) killing defend innocent may , anything , justifiable killing self defense turn cheek , right turn someone else 's \( 2 \) seems jesus meant teach pacifism , would made position explicit n't tell centurion leave army , instance nt full military metaphors b pacifist side \( 1 \) apparently many early christians refused fight roman army , stated one refuse given choice 's clear whether objecting war per se , objecting roman policies \( 2 \) modern warfare , seems impossible direct attacks combatants bombing , conventional nuclear , kills lots civilians \( 3 \) 's hard tell whether particular war justified time often takes decades requisite information become available general public please , email replies meant contribution public discussion , anyone wanting reply also reply publicly michael covington , associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu university georgia phone 706 542 0358 athens , georgia 30602 7415 u amateur radio n4tmi
mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) subject divine providence vs murphy 's law organization ai programs , university georgia , athens lines 19 article apr 19 05 13 28 1993 athos rutgers edu rolfe junior dsu edu \( tim rolfe \) writes romans 8 28 \( rsv \) know everything god works good love , called according purpose murphy 's law anything go wrong , quite familiar commentary murphy 's law romans 8 28 \? matter , appropriate humor contradicted scripture \? 've always taken murphy 's law , observation behavior complex systems , rather denial divine benevolence michael covington , associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu university georgia phone 706 542 0358 athens , georgia 30602 7415 u amateur radio n4tmi
conditt tsd arlut utexas edu \( paul conditt \) subject right messiahs organization applied research laboratories , university texas austin lines 11 following comment article desiree bradley clh way , koresh 's public statement 's clear claiming christ koresh originally claim christ , backed said prophet latest news 8 00 cdt waco feds broke wall compound tank news besides time paul
kilroy gboro rowan edu \( dr nancy 's sweetie \) subject questioning authority organization rowan college new jersey lines 36 chris mussack writes people insist question authority \? holocaust spanish inquisition jonestown \( name \) \? authorities sometimes tell people evil things people follow orders tortured killed others large numbers , protest innocence afterwards authority starts telling things , ask questions except situations pressing need \( said shut hatch submarine filling water ! \) , reasonable authority able give least justification understand sure listen authority answers \( anybody interested questions psychological pressure following orders , might want read study done solomon 1951 conformity , another done stanley 1963 obedience good book psychology sociology results fascinating terrifying \) darren f provine kilroy gboro rowan edu 're told 're told 're told told peter gabriel
dxf12 po cwru edu \( douglas fowler \) subject christian parenting organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 83 sorry posting , e mail keeps bouncing maybe help others , anyway , therefore pray others read actually response aunt , 5 kids , since none yet hi sociology student currently researching young offenders looking way various groups children raised home moment information discipline within christian home please , parent catagory email response following responses treated used prepare stats i'm posting good christian relative e mail access since aunt uncle 5 kids felt would relevant , none \( yet \) 1 ages sexes children 13 year old \( \) twins , boy , 6 boy , girl 2 spank kids \? n't call spanking , , yes , rarely 3 often \? n't call spanking 's reaction something dangerous , trying stick finger fan running road maybe 3 4 times except girl , yet call hurt feelings , course give hugs stuff ensure know 're still loved 4 use implement spank \? , would painful 's never recall punished besides , must immediate , taking time go get 're right away , impact 's emotional child evidenced fact little slap rear hurts perhaps 5 seconds called spanking 5 spank , method discipline use \? lots logical consequences instance , matthew dared good friend jump would push , made sure n't play together 5 days 'd know would make lose friends quickly 's never done anything like since also use time rooms use timer n't keep arguing leaving , since 's hard argue go closed door tell timeout wo n't calm 're use top stairs 're really young 6 age \? 40 7 location bath , ohio 's right outside akron , northeast part ohio 8 age 16 ever commit criminal offence \? , none kids would dream hope use teach parents physical punishment n't always required parents use excuse hit hard 9 ere disciplined kid lots timeouts , use family husband 's never used fact , grandmother law one 11 kids , almost never around turn century , none us ever law man made god 's law jesus says , referring small child holding , ye least , ye also bible also says things kind , merciful , especially loving \( colossians 3 12 15 \) room selfish anger , 'll admit 've tempted times 've felt like spanking hard anger , maybe kid deserved little slap rear , would given would devil 's work could feel temptation , ordered kid room went room praying asking god 's forgiveness , much , feel like spanking , felt done enough punishment doug fowler dxf12 po cwru edu , age 4 ever wonder , casey relatives give lots hugs love missed 3rd strike poem support , 'cause heaven great ran first made \? big hug lasts forever ever ! ! !
iitmax iit edu \( catherine c \) subject phone number wycliffe translators uk organization illinois institute technology lines 36 article apr 17 01 11 19 1993 2268 geneva rutgers edu mprc troi cc rochester edu \( price \) writes i'm concerned recent posting wbt sil thought 'd pretty much denounced right wing organization involved ideological manipulation cultural interference , including vietnam south america commission mexican academia denounced 1979 covert political ideological institution used u govt instrument control , regulation , penetration , espionage repression personally know quite wycliffe bible translators organization fundamental purpose translate scriptures native languages terms usual means learning developing written language \( along teaching natives read \) associated u govt many governments want help translators best knowledge mexican government encourages come idea cultural interference presentation good news understand , suggest read books \( biographical \) translators one stands mind excellent called peace child would give true picture mission concern group may seen acceptable even praiseworthy readers soc religion christian 's important christians n't immediately accept every christian organization automatically reproach mp agree statement , cannot also accept others say without looking issues would taking 's discussion cia , etc true must look sides cathy
mdw33310 uxa cso uiuc edu \( michael walker \) subject question virgin mary organization university illinois urbana lines 58 faris trl oz au \( aziz faris \) writes netters told bible says god took body virgin mary carried burial true , bible say regards , faris think 're talking assumption blessed virgin mary says immaculate mother god , ever virgin mary , completed course earthly life , assumed body soul heavenly glory defined papal statement 1950 , though certainly believed like immaculate conception , primarily roman catholic doctrine , like , direct biblical support note catholics believe sola scriptura , believe bible source christian knowledge thus fact doctrine little biblical support necessarily significant believe truth passed traditions church , also revealed church i'm interested yet another catholic protestant argument , catholics tell us basis beliefs , think would appropriate clh find wanting respond posting neither time proper materials \( would think would learn lesson i'm trying finish writing thesis n't tons time anyway \) basis \( catholic church 's \) belief assumption mary , body soul , heaven , put simply , apostles early generation christians believed fact , throughout ministry apostles kept close contact mary , 11 12 present died thomas missing arrived several days later , asked shown body , moved pity , peter several apostles brought tomb arrived seal still broke seal , entered , body missing sign anyone entered , forcibly otherwise , everything else laid exactly left apostles present believed mary assumed heaven apostles taught preaching \( course , appear texts currently considered part bible , appear writings left behind several \) basicaly , apostolic church \( ie founded apostles \) , believe teachings apostles , whether written bible written sources , true , providing authenticity sources confirmed least case assumption mary , authenticity quite clear hope helps would welcome anyone information add 've said mike walker mdw33310 uxa cso uiuc edu \( univ illinois \)
news cbnewsk att com subject question virgin mary organization bell labs lines 18 article may 3 05 01 53 1993 athos rutgers edu faris trl oz au \( aziz faris \) writes think 're talking assumption blessed virgin mary says immaculate mother god , ever virgin mary , completed course earthly life , assumed body soul heavenly glory defined papal statement 1950 , though certainly believed clh true i'm sure basis belief , widely held belief among rc church support lead declared true basically teaching infallibility holds pope infallible matters faith doctrine , college bishops likewise infallible , well pope gets attention criticism consensus bodies equally infallible \( according rc teaching \) joe moore
db7n andrew cmu edu \( andrew byler \) subject immaculate conception organization freshman , civil engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 48 biblical basis immaculate conception 1 \) put enmity serpent woman , seed seed , also read shall crush head shall bruise heel genesis 3 15 2 \) commits sin devil 1 john 3 8 3 \) hail , full grace greek , lord thee luke 1 28 , prove doctrine immaculate conception first , god given proto genesis 3 15 , first promise savior , redeem mankind satan satan murderer beginning , stood truth truth john 8 44 proto promises several things , enmity satan woman , enmity satan seed woman eve \( immediate point reference \) mary , second eve seed jesus christ , also enmity satan way mary said enmity satan thus , knowing jesus christ sinless \( hebrews 7 26 \) , conclude mary also sinless n't would 1 \) enmity devil , 1 john 3 8 tells us , 2 \) relation sinlessness christ 's sinlessness would called question , would god 's veracity god promised enmity mary serpent , possible god lie second , angelic greeting mary called gabriel full grace pointed greek word means full grace , perfection grace sense best footnote jerusalem bible , hail filled grace little long say , reduced full grace says , mary always filled grace , moment conception , also moment salvation , death years later must admitted possible god could done doctrine conception says god could keep free contact sin , mother , would , bible records fact , fathers church st john damascus , st augustine hippo , st ambrose others complete agreement , christian tradition , infallible declaration pope matter deus andy byler
marka hcx1 ssd csd harris com \( mark ashley \) subject satanic tounges organization harris csd , ft lauderdale , fl lines 23 article may 2 09 50 21 1993 geneva rutgers edu mmh dcs qmw ac uk \( matthew huntbach \) writes seen claims , n't know authenticated cases people making prolonged speeches real languages n't know observations , speaking tongues practice nothing simple test take several people speak one language \( e g chinese , russian , german , english \) let gifted one start speaking toungues audience understand gifted one clearly native language however , gifted one hear speaking language works everytime 8 \) perhaps would believe gifted ones glorifying god rather perhaps 'd witness real miracle mark ashley disclaimer opinions harris' marka gcx1 ssd csd harris com lost los angelino
rexlex fnal fnal gov subject babylon book offer organization fnal ad net lines 20 time time made reference book called two babylons book written alexander hislop \( mid 1800 's \) babylonian mystery religion flight history unable put first time read , others found dry references illustrations interested purchasing copy , call moody book store \( 312 \) 329 order 16 99 ship good book get reference titles mystery religions found invaluable purpose alone want skim subject , comes highly recommended note rc brothers sisters may find may find test origin true nature origin offended anything asks hard questions denomination \( whether christian \) perhaps passover offer little , go later , please contact reasons pro con book really would interested ev christos , rex
storrs eos ncsu edu \( jerry storrs \) subject march jesus reply storrs eos ncsu edu \( jerry storrs \) organization north carolina state university , project eos lines 16 info area large march leaving imo means organizers found difficult manage one feels need involved i'm casting stones , involvement lord include march year maybe giving message lack one \? \? jls jerry l storrs , systems manager u got 2 b , dept chemical engineering u got 2 b u say u believe north carolina state university u got 2 b , raleigh , nc even nobody jesus u 919 515 \( 3465 fax \) storrs che ncsu edu \( preferred \) \( steven curtis chapman \)
pmoloney maths tcd ie \( paul moloney \) subject record burning organization somewhere twentieth century lines 23 mbl edu \( robert \) writes movie version last temptation christ awful practically one would seen , influenced message , conservatives loudly protested distribution unwittingly created larger market movie many places , christians sucessful attempts get films banned , least given restrictive showing problem christians burning pieces art \( though find tragic waste \) however problem attempts censor may may view p moorcockpratchettdenislearydelasoulu2iainmbanksneworderheathersbatmanpjorourke clive p u l l n e come , let us retract foreskin misconception james trinity college dublin apply wire brush enlightenment geoffm brownbladerunnersugarcubeselectronicblaylockpowersspikeleekatebushhamcornpizza
db7n andrew cmu edu \( andrew byler \) subject monophysites mike walker lines 45 mike walker using standard formula fully god fully human , i'm sure object saying jesus human think usual analysis would sin part basic definition humanity 's consequence fall jesus human , fallen human clh proper term mike expresses monophysitism heresy condemned council chalcedon 451 ad grew reaction nestorianism , held son jesus two different people happened united body temporarily monophysitism held copts egypt syria armenian orthodox believes jesus christ god \( correct \) , man \( correct \) , one person \( correct \) , one nature one energy \( heretical , orthodox position two natures two wills two energies , divine human , though wills perfect harmony \) mike trying get across , jesus came human form , mike says human nature human reality , , though neither made subject original sin interesting note reaction conflict attempted solve problem admitting two natures two wills two energies also condemned , late council constantinople believe andy byler issues get mighty subtle see people saying different things 's often hard tell whether really mean seriously different things , whether using different terminology n't think 's question problem nestorius , would agree saying christ human form without real human nature heretical 'd like bit wary copts , armenians , etc recent discussions suggest monophysite position may far orthodoxy many thought nestorius extreme representative one two major schools thought moderate representatives regarded orthodox , e g theodore impression modern monophysite groups inherit entire tradition , version , may sufficient balanced position regarded orthodox clh
petch gvg47 gvg tek com \( chuck \) subject daily verse lines 4 god peace soon crush satan feet grace lord jesus romans 16 20
ohsu edu ohsu edu \( brown \) subject christ , advocate poem organization oregon health sciences university lines 44 advocate sinned , , satan flew presence high god made accusation said , soul , thing clay sod , sinned 'tis true named thy name demand death , thou hast said , 'the soul , shall die ' shall thy sentence fulfilled \? justice dead \? send sinner doom ! thing righteous ruler \? thus satan accuse day night every word spoke , god , true ! quickly one rose god 's right hand , whose glory angels veiled eyes spoke , tittle law must fulfilled guilty sinner dies ! wait suppose guilt transferred paid penalty ! behold hands , side , feet ! one day made sin died might presented , , thy throne ! satan flew away full well knew could prevail love , every word dear lord spoke true ! martha snell nicholson heard poem read last night wanted share subscribers newsgroup 's wonderful blessing see secure salvation lord jesus paid owe debt capable pay thanks praise savior , lord jesus christ , seated right hand majesty high , making intercession us brown \( internet \) ohsu edu
loisc microsoft com \( lois christiansen \) subject homosexuality issues christianity organization microsoft corp lines 37 article apr 30 03 11 27 1993 geneva rutgers edu fsspr acad3 alaska edu wrote subject beaten death bit listserv christia recently , stepped closed topic discussed since privately e mail amongst participants , 've received fairly large file \( approx 18 kb \) comments made march washington among n't posted already \( n't know scan newsgroup , 1200 bps , could n't possibly read \) , would glad send along believe would interest people hope anyone remembers seeing rev troy perry 's performance 1987 march washington see mix christianity homosexuality sean patrick ryan fsspr aurora alaska edu sean com might visit congregations christians , happen homosexuals , spirit filled believers , go lumping us together troy perry lord working community \( homosexual community , \) 's asking us change sexual nature , calling us practice morality established beginning n't satan christian christian issue , especially homosexuality let 's reach homosexuals christ let 's try change , need bring christ n't want gay , change living moral life , committed someone sex , god moving lives , tell change \? 's two cent god bless loisc
andy bgsu edu \( sherlette dixon \) subject original post \( jesus black \? \) organization bowling green state university student lines 11 , , knew would receive response post , extensive thank responded least showed people willing think , even though general response return old matter \? question part response , suggest read articles covering question soc culture african american , dire need cultural enlightenment sherlette
jodfishe silver ucs indiana edu \( joseph dale fisher \) subject going permanent mail organization indiana university lines 8 well , 's time year iu graduation unfortunately , means , likely good cannot say 'll another username , even 'll ever get back leaving part ministry another brother , john right , fun remember flaming considered slander joe fisher
mnhcc cunyvm bitnet \( marty helgesen \) subject question virgin mary organization city university new york lines 45 article may 3 05 01 53 1993 athos rutgers edu , faris trl oz au \( aziz faris \) says faris posting deleted moderator replies think 're talking assumption blessed virgin mary says immaculate mother god , ever virgin mary , completed course earthly life , assumed body soul heavenly glory defined papal statement 1950 , though certainly believed like immaculate conception , primarily roman catholic doctrine , like , direct biblical support note catholics believe sola scriptura , believe bible source christian knowledge thus fact doctrine little biblical support necessarily significant believe truth passed traditions church , also revealed church i'm interested yet another catholic protestant argument , catholics tell us basis beliefs , think would appropriate clh generally , contains one serious error catholics believe god 's revealed truth explicitly recorded bible passed tradition church noted tradition church , otherwise known sacred tradition , ordinary human traditions however , believe additional truth revealed church public revelation , basis catholic doctrine , ended death st john , last apostle nothing new added theologians study revelation draw implications recognized previously , council nicea could define statements theology trinity incarnation explicitly stated bible disputed council , new revelation nicea subsequent council cardinal newman 's essay development christian doctrine , written still anglican , excellent discussion point recently reprinted image books paperback related shorter works title conscience , consensus , development doctrine marty helgesen bitnet mnhcc cunyvm internet mnhcc cunyvm cuny edu thing hypothetical situation \?
steve hayes f22 n7101 z5 fidonet org subject major views trinity lines 22 04 may 93 , andrew byler writes dab think need post athanasian creed , pretty well dab orthodox christian belief trinity , dab incarnation dab 's pretty good statement beliefs eventually , dab creed use catholic church , well lutheran , dab anglican , orthodox churches \( last minus filioque , dab delete original form creed \) evidence used orthodox churches \? far know purely western , like apostles' creed orthodox churches use symbol faith , commonly called nicene creed steve hayes department missiology university south africa golded 2 40
sun075 ! gerry palo uunet uu net \( gerry palo \) subject athiests hell lines 110 article apr 30 03 10 22 1993 geneva rutgers edu rexlex fnal fnal gov writes article apr 29 04 19 17 1993 geneva rutgers edu sun075 ! gerry palo uunet uu net \( gerry palo \) writes note , perhaps oldest creeds , mention danger hell non believers likewise mention salvation soul destiny heaven death resurrection body \( say \) n't go far enough back believe god create heavens earth create adam eve walked garden history flowed , agree , would agree back go closer get people stronger memory god said commanded \? adam eve golgotha whole process fall man occurred involved gradual dimming consciousness spiritual world discernable world different peoples history greek , example , could say , better beggar land living king land dead \( iliad , think \) question happens human beings died christ ever present one christians ready adam abraham , even cain eternal damnation yet died sins , christian sense said whole gentile humanity , also unrepentant cross next limit power christ save even , satan would mock deed salvation moment fulfillment studies ancient mystery , run across many rituals interpretation god via promised seed rebel suffer eternal life standard belief back possible experience eternity passing moment relationship eternity duration simply one indefinitely extended conditions greenwich mean time possible imagine eternity agony bliss even many spiritual world time earthly death new birth also standard belief among many peoples even righteous lost result loss consciousness fled us fall , ever increasing involvement sense world would interesting share results studies ancient people 's ideas life death today think know much could go back time could sure teach people thing two think age grown older mist , older ages mankind fell mist darkness , turning point time new light entered world light still grows , developing eyes see much new revelation growth standing lies us new vision understanding still feeble , contains something new grow time embrace old much well \( point acknowledge openly debt work rudolf steiner , founder anthroposophy , many insights led views subject \) said , 'd love post vulcan hammer would fall history purgatory shown druids england greeks egyptians ultimately got babylonian mysteries yes , eastern religions also show many similarities mean , black white writings finds plainly show origin way refer doctrine puts modern intellectual coloring think much less abstract much real spiritually concrete , teaching struck much closer home doctrines teachings today received ready attribute widespread notions antiquity simple dispersion original source even passed , question , extent reflect real perception experience \? similarity midst great variety expression different people 's ideas time immediately death testifies presence underlying reality case , study geometry reading old manuscripts euclid , contemplating principles hand , one notion firmly embedded christianity originated definitely pagan source idea human consists essentially soul , soul created birth , consciously adopted aristotle , whose ideas dominated christian thought fifteen hundred years still today father modern thought time lived darkened time perception eternal spiritual grown dim maybe sometime future indeed also clarify deny eternal damnation real possibility narrow range conceive decisive moment , e end single earthly life , mind sufficient embrace reality , think early creeds terms try spell rex gerry \( 73237 2006 compuserve com \)
sml nott ac uk \( steve lang \) subject arrogance christians organization nottingham university lines 60 article may 2 09 51 49 1993 geneva rutgers edu , wrote genius science discovered enormous progress knowledge could made isolating study physical interactions general areas study proceeding logical argument experiment scientific method , attempt disprove hypothesis , fail , publish , others fail disprove hypothesis , accept working theory move method suitable study objects without , objects take interest experiment science progress via experimentation one aim experiments investigate validity resulting models produced thinking process arrogance science assumption many advocates science make scientific method method serious study , one leading knowledge rather belief science one advantage approaches explaining world objective arrogance , assumption arises , since science valid method thought , everything exists must sort thing scientific method study , scientific method cannot study either exist cannot way known anything affects physical world studied example , since part physical world , anything \( including spirits \) affects behaviour observed science make claims existence non existence objects affect physical world since asumptions nature world cannot made subject experiment , bad science believe , well arrogance , , plain sloppy thinking purpose science produce model physical world model must able explain past observations predict outcome future observations one aims experiments carry well defined observations objective ideally scientist except model best describes world , model minimal number assumptions moment models rely assumption spiritual world existing equally powerful ones assume assumption spiritual world non spiritual models fewer assumptions currently accepted models scientific process never assumes present models correct ones , whereas many religions claim represent truth arrogance many theists claim represent truth , cannot said scientists steve lang slang sling slick slack shack thank think thick
marka hcx1 ssd csd harris com \( mark ashley \) subject question virgin mary organization ft lauderdale , fl lines 74 think 're talking assumption blessed virgin mary says immaculate mother god , ever virgin mary , completed course earthly life , assumed body soul heavenly glory defined papal statement 1950 , though certainly believed like immaculate conception , primarily roman catholic doctrine , like , direct biblical support note catholics believe sola scriptura , believe bible source christian knowledge thus fact doctrine little biblical support necessarily significant believe truth passed traditions church , also revealed church i'm interested yet another catholic protestant argument , catholics tell us basis beliefs , think would appropriate clh bible , lot instances god speaks people , person came know piece information , person walks desert 40 days , etc god 's power certainly whatever wants wants bible ends book revelations god 's reign end \? say sure god 's messages either longer happening still happening \? hear proof 8 \) cold response 've gotten past group , 's hard get point across 'll go physical stuff skeptics look documents stored somewhere 've cited bodies saints 're still 8 \) apparitions fatima , portugal culminated miracle specifically granted show god 's existence spinning descending sun seen several countries event approved pope currently , images mary japan , korea , yugoslavia , philippines , africa showing tears \( natural blood \) still investigation church realize investigations take decades finish message christ come ten days , 's bit late , n't 8 \) events investigation inner \( coming know \) , \( person exhibits christ 's wounds n't heal doctor 's n't know \) non believers welcome documents , i'm sure stuff like koresh oral roberts \( give 5m god call home \) 's free find 're happening \( studying \) anybody figure , tell us ! religion resources , go one countries mentioned members events god mary invites everybody conclusion \( finally \) rc 's believe modern day manifestations god mary scared death sometimes although 're told proofs events everything bible although lot apparitions , told read bible far protestant vs catholics issue concerned end , god 's churches unite i'm sure idea point n't worry versus part god 's work 's matters unity come btw , i'm plain person i'm pope 's spokesperson rc mark ashley disclaimer opinions harris' marka gcx1 ssd csd harris com lost los angelino
news cbnewsk att com subject immaculate conception organization bell labs lines 30 article may 3 05 01 26 1993 athos rutgers edu todd nickel laurentian ca writes roommate correct immaculate conception refers conception mary mother 's womb okay , 've defined immaculate conception doctrine would possible knowledgeable area give biblically support 've attempted come terms previously \( attempt understand learning purposes \) n't able grasp reasoning gift god think basically reasoning tradition church held mary also without sin jesus tenets faith developed , particularly augustine , sin equated sex , thus mary assumed virgin life \( since never sinned , since spouse god , etc \) since also notion original sin , ie man born predisposition sin , since mary predisposition ever sin , n't original sin science discovered process conception , next step assume mary conceived without original sin , immaculate conception mary time appeared girl named bernadette lourdes refered immaculate conception since nine year old would way knowing doctrine , apparition deemed true sealed case doctrine rcs hold revelation comes two equally important sources , sacred scripture holy tradition case , mostly tradition joe moore
e p unl edu \( edgar pearlstein \) subject legal definition religion organization university nebraska lincoln lines 8 's understanding u supreme court never given legal definition religion despite many cases involving religion come court anyone verify falsify \? state government tried give legal definition religion \?
maridai comm mot com \( marida ignacio \) subject immaculate conception \? organization trunking fixed lines 111 note cross posting \( actually , emailing \) bit listserv catholic main posting goes soc religion christian quotations omitted response question immaculate conception explained , left justification catholic readers clh direct reference holy scripture except mention mary 's full grace angel gabriel luke 1 26 28 6th month angel gabriel sent god unto city galilee , named nazareth virgin espoused man whose name joseph , house david virgin 's name mary angel came unto said , hail , thou art highly favoured , lord thee blessed art thou among women , , hold line thought lord mary blessed art thou among women read book , first lady world , popular history devotion mary peter immaculate conception matter really far complicated assumption arose 430 ad quite possible feast mary 's conception title conception saint anne , originally physical miracle woman beyond age child bearing , daughter , elizabeth conceived john baptist transfer emphasis physical miracle wrought anne miracle grace wrought god soul mary logical mary christ 's sinless body god 's eden , tree knowledge , serpent harms perfect beauty find christ , purity father time council ephesus , innocent , without , immaculate , inviolate , , holy soul body , blessed lily among , evil ways eve end thirteenth century , irish , john \( \) , god maintained greater thing preserve \( son \) mother sin use power later let 's go discussion baptism original sin pocket catholic john baptism remains baptism tendency sin remains baptized since left provide trial , power injure consent grace christ jesus , resist \( canon 5 \) original gifts adam eve fall light foregoing , see first parents originally gifted three times natural gifts human beings especially power think choose freely gifts bodily immortality integrity , internal power control desires supernatural gifts sanctifying grace , virtues faith , hope , charity corresponding title enter heaven disobedience , lost supernatural gifts entirely , weakened \( without losing \) natural capacity reason choose freely baptism restores supernatural life lost adam 's sin restore gifts gifts title glorified restoration bodies last day going back immaculate conception \( sure interpretation books may another contribution \) given miracle st anne bearing child non age , christ yet born baptism yet mary 's birth still , angel gabriel 's greetings hail mary , full grace , lord blessed art thou amongst women even mary confused greeting mary could well possessed original gifts given first parents \( adam eve sin \) hail mary \( example praise given angel gabriel \) full grace \( natural , , supernatural \) lord \( times , god would definitely want made blessed \) blessed art thou amongst women \( says \) conception , god made mary full grace blessed coming body christ , immaculate conception mary true mary still maintained immaculate heart marida \( p hope others continue light facts matter thanks \)
david bernard central sun com \( dave bernard \) subject question virgin mary reply david bernard central sun com organization sun microsystems lines 9 article athos rutgers edu , revdak netcom com \( andrew kille \) writes observation although bodily assumption basis bible , carl jung declared one important pronouncements church recent years , implied inclusion feminine godhead jung mean godhead \?
u0mrm csc liv ac uk \( r \) subject hell organization computer science , liverpool university lines 31 article may 5 02 51 25 1993 athos rutgers edu , shellgate ! llo uu4 psi com \( larry l overacker \) writes 's question friends debating last night q knew beyond doubt hell exist unbelievers simply remained dead , would remain christian \? contention answer question would remain christian really one following jesus christ everything sharing work spreading news kingdom heaven already among us fear based religion faith relationship one made us mean anyone christian avoid hell n't really christian \? sounds like mit , martyn r \( u0mrm compsci liverpool ac uk \) martyn r , e mail u0mrm compsci liverpool ac uk department applied mathematics arpa internet u0mrm csc liv ac uk theoretical physics , janet u0mrm uk ac liv csc university liverpool , p box 147 , liverpool , england , ergo deus est '
mandtbacka finabo abo fi \( mats andtbacka \) subject hell organization unorganized usenet postings uninc lines 26 may 5 02 51 25 1993 athos rutgers edu shellgate ! llo uu4 psi com writes 's question friends debating last night q knew beyond doubt hell exist unbelievers simply remained dead , would remain christian \? \( reasoning pertinent believing deleted space \) strikes , apparent reason , reversible e , proof existed hell , would eternally punished believing life , would make xian \? \( pardon language \) bloody hell ! course , merely reversal thinking , n't add anything new debate , several friends disagreed , arguing fear hell necessary motivate people christianity fatally message god love point well taken , successful terrorism called revolution , admired history unsuccessful terrorism lowly , cowardly terrorism phil trodwell alt atheism
bjorn b larsen delab sintef \( bjorn b larsen \) subject bible available every language \( satanic tounges \) reply bjorn b larsen delab sintef organization delab lines 31 article may 5 02 53 10 1993 athos rutgers edu koberg spot colorado edu \( allen koberg \) writes tongues concept tongues used pentecost seems outdated concept bible available nearly every language , missionaries languages , church need tongues \? guess least people able support claim still lot languages without bible , part bible still many languages able write , simply written version language yet defined ! guess one main goals wycliffe bible translators define rules grammar writing languages world see reason become unemployed future \( provided get neccessary support ! \) still one 3 largest missionary organizations world bjorn mail e mail bjorn b larsen bjorn b larsen delab sintef sintef delab n trondheim tel 47 7 norway fax 47 7
wagner grace math uh edu \( david wagner \) subject deuterocanonicals , esp sirach organization uh dept math lines 53 ddavis cass ma02 bull com \( dave davis \) writes ii deuterocanonicals canon quoted nt authors quite accurate otherwise would book enoch canon \( dave noted \) one say apocrypha quoted christ dave also writes iii deuterocanonicals canon teach doctrines contrary \( \) parts canon answer logically invalid priori besides , talking ot texts many parts superceded nt \( xtian view \) would principle exclude ecclesiastes \? principle cannot consistently applied reject argument spirit speaks one voice , contradict ultimate test whether words inspired spirit , e , god breathed test guided faith reason logic early church decided apocrypha meet test even though books wisdom ben sirach uses example , lutheran hymn thank god quotes passage book deutero canonical books added much later church 's history spiritual quality rest scripture believe church added books guided spirit sort discussion ultimately ends david h wagner confessional lutheran thank god heart hands voices , wondrous things hath done , world mother 's arms hath blessed us way countless gifts love , still today alle , v 1 martin , 1636 \( compare ben sirach 50 22 24 \)
db7n andrew cmu edu \( andrew byler \) subject question virgin mary organization freshman , civil engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 22 andrew kille writes observation although bodily assumption basis bible , carl jung declared one important pronouncements church recent years , implied inclusion feminine godhead means absolutely idea assumption however greatly mary , quite obvious way god even part god equal god assumption blessed mother , meant close identification redemptive work christ , assumed \( note ascend \) body soul heaven , thus one , along elijah , enoch , moses \( maybe \? \? \? \? \) already perfected heaven obviously , virgin mary far superior glorification previously mentioned personages jung stick psychology rather getting theology andy byler
sun075 ! gerry palo uunet uu net \( gerry palo \) subject christianity repeated lives lines 84 article may 5 02 52 15 1993 28800 athos rutgers edu jek cu nih gov writes gerry palo writes nothing christianity precludes idea repeated lives earth apostle paul \( romans 9 11 \) points god chose jacob rather esau ancestor covenant people ultimately messiah , made choice two boys still mother 's womb , therefore could possibly done anything good evil deserve appointed admit possibility lived previous lives , \( accordance idea karma \) present lives reward punishment past behaviour , makes nonsense paul 's whole point existence repeated earth lives destiny \( karma \) mean everything happens past deeds oriental view tends direction , subscribe view god may choose one individual another fit instrument plans , preclude development individual earthly life result longer course development , rudolf steiner , subscribe oriental view , karma determining everything one kind caricature much greater law context deed christ golgotha ultimate salvation freedom human working christ seen master theme , indeed , new impulse completely free karma christ incarnated flesh , debt karma sin oriental concepts reincarnation karma , even trivialized mechanized new age teachings , incorrectly assume jesus christ reincarnation master avatar , etc teaching reincarnation karma also concept continuing individuality one life next \( e g buddhism \) important , concept resurrection body , ultimate continuity whole human ultimate resurrection judgement last day another biblical passage also bearing tenth chapter john , devoted almost entirely man born blind clearly , jesus tells disciples past karma parents led blindness , rather new impulse revealed note refute question fact , ask matter course , question stated self evident one two possibilities existed either sins man , obviously incarnation , sins parents fact even asked first possibility indicates awareness idea part form christ 's answer indicates disagree also matthew 11 14 , jesus says straight john baptist , care accept , elias , come also emphasizes gospels positive teaching either way reincarnation , fact , happens human death last day even jesus push teaching people ready embrace \( care accept \) took care point , bible teaches reincarnation deny either , much scripture fundamental christian doctrine becomes understandable reincarnation understood right way used repeated earth lives distinguish little oriental doctrines usually associated word reincarnation phrase rudolf steiner 's \( \) noted idea needed arise new insight west , completely free eastern tradition eighteenth nineteenth centuries , important expression 's education human race return original point , paul 's statement jacob esau contradict idea repeated earth lives karma principles receive fulfillment incarnation , death , resurrection , ascension return jesus christ , view regards , gerry palo \( 73237 2006 compuserve com \)
danc procom com \( daniel cossack \) subject truth bible organization procom technology , inc lines 44 sodium asc slb com asc slb com \( michael montgomery \) writes believe god preserved bible perfectly perfectly conveys truth intended done oh yea \? version bible perfectly preserved one \? many translations perfectly preserved \? god trying confuse us \? minor changes wording even accidental omission passages manuscripts change truth conveyed , would lead serious student doctrinal error \( note also god provided many exactly happend many branches denominations christianity deviations doctrine varying translations biblical texts serious students much numerous begin count perfect bible , would possible misinterpretation would need anyone debating hand , maybe bible perfect , one planet perfect enough read correctly , would point god giving us something cannot use correctly short , attack credibility reliability bible , weak ground furthermore , reason see wanting remove bible final authority , instead put responsibility men sift bible strain truth contains \( words , want believe \) , ignore rest bible truth contain truth imho , trust salvation reliability single book , weak ground remember , beginning word , word god , word god word existed bible written \( note word god \) word john trying describe cannot fully described written language , languages imperfect realization comes word , outside boundaries language use bible guide , stepping stone , way final authority god alone final authority daniel cossack danc procom com , compuserve com senior software engineer dupont drive , irvine , ca procom technology , inc 1 714 852 1000
bruce liv ac uk \( bruce stephens \) subject homosexuality issues christianity organization centre mathematical software research , univ liverpool lines 49 5 may 93 06 51 23 gmt , shellgate ! llo uu4 psi com \( larry l overacker \) said article apr 30 03 11 27 1993 geneva rutgers edu fsspr acad3 alaska edu \( hardcore alaskan \) writes hope anyone remembers seeing rev troy perry 's performance 1987 march washington see mix christianity homosexuality whether christianity homosexuality compatible clearly debatable , since debated opnion , genuinely cause christianity use sort ad hominem argument oppose one 's adversaries serves drive people away christianity projects confirms frequently held opinion christians unable think critically intelligently agree entirely speaking atheist \( heterosexual , 's worth \) , one least attractive parts varieties christianity although i'm sure 's possible argue theologically n't make analogies discrimination basis sex race discrimination basis sexual orientation , morally case looks unanswerable \( outside religion \) three forms analogous n't discriminate basis sex , race sexual orientation found moderator 's faqs subject instructive , recommend everyone read seem three different levels acceptance 1 \) regard homosexual orientation sin \( evil , whatever \) 2 \) regard homosexual behaviour sin , accept orientation \( though presumably orientation unfortunate \) dislike people indulge 3 \) 2 , love sinner 4 \) accept homosexuality altogether experience 3 common attitude \( imagine 1 2 limited fundamentalist sects \) suppose go along 3 , except feeling 14 15 year old living community attitude , discovering attracted members sex , would feel love community , would rather feel pressure exhibit feelings i'm saying community \( particular parents \) would love child , suspect child would feel loved bruce , university liverpool
hudson athena cs uga edu \( paul hudson jr \) subject satanic tounges organization university georgia , athens lines 34 article may 6 00 34 49 1993 geneva rutgers edu marka hcx1 ssd csd harris com \( mark ashley \) writes simple test take several people speak one language \( e g chinese , russian , german , english \) let gifted one start speaking toungues audience understand gifted one clearly native language however , gifted one hear speaking language would neat , nowhere bible say one gift tounges gift tounges ability understood everyone , matter languages know , would need gift interpretation , corinthians 14 would written perhaps would believe gifted ones glorifying god rather perhaps 'd witness real miracle 's pretty harsh assumption make several million christians world wide sure , want glory speak tounges , among gift people like church also mean true gift speak tounges glory sight men would venture say large percentage speak tounges often private prayer public link hudson apparently early church claimed pentecost miracle crowd given ability understand apostles speaking greek clh
wjhovi01 ulkyvx louisville edu subject people become atheists \? organization university louisville lines 13 undoubtedly people adopt atheism many reasons , suspect god 've believed \( j b phillips 's words \) small person 's understanding god allowed grow develop , eventually become inadequate grey haired gentleman throne comforting image childhood becomes joke therapist friend mine sometimes suggests clients fire god means letting go inadequate understanding god make room fuller one follows encouraging hire new one guess lot folks go firing process , adequately supported subsequent hire billh
petch gvg47 gvg tek com \( chuck \) subject daily verse lines 5 came near place road goes mount , whole crowd disciples began praise god loud voices miracles seen luke 19 37
rexlex fnal fnal gov subject athiests hell organization fnal ad net lines 157 article may 6 00 35 31 1993 geneva rutgers edu sun075 ! gerry palo uunet uu net \( gerry palo \) writes adam eve golgotha whole process fall man occurred involved gradual dimming consciousness spiritual world precisely point theological bent , lived immediately flood , noah , ham , son , son nimrod much stronger appreciation divine wrath also stronger understanding true god fact , cause , much atlas , seen heavens resting shoulders merely physical heavens lifting put god strict spirituality law distance , thus became elevator heavens god made men able feel heaven either god heaven could see dark cloud , regard displeasure breakers laws interesting see titled nimrod invaded system abridged liberties mankind , yet worship given many benefits right think christ one delivered conscious feeling god 's wrath , actually performed delivery gods wrath us accept true question happens human beings died christ ever present one christians ready adam abraham , even cain eternal damnation n't see problem time adam , looked forward coming anointed one put faith fact god provision , accounted righteous crucifixion , sins covered , taken away therefore , dispensation church views accountability sin , see completed action rom 's makes clear always salvation via faith nothing else possible experience eternity passing moment relationship eternity duration simply one indefinitely extended conditions greenwich mean time understand 're trying convey , n't think 'd lay hold scriptures equate eternality second death eternality , say church ruling christ jn 17 tells us eternal life exactly , correct much non cessation consciousness also standard belief among many peoples even righteous lost depends upon def lost elect lost time outside time chosen foundation world born lost , righteous christ therefore never assuredly lost would interesting share results studies ancient people 's ideas life death maybe summer could find time put together paper simply buy books , older books expensive either countless trips oriental museum mankind fell mist darkness , turning point time new light entered world light still grows , developing eyes see much new revelation growth standing lies us new vision understanding still feeble , contains something new grow time embrace old much well could n't agree understanding , say eschatology , clearly clearer , say isaiah referring \( point acknowledge openly debt work rudolf steiner , founder anthroposophy , many insights led views subject \) way refer doctrine puts modern intellectual coloring think much less abstract much real spiritually concrete , teaching struck much closer home doctrines teachings today received , understand said point ready attribute widespread notions antiquity simple dispersion original source even passed , question , extent reflect real perception experience \? ah ! big question however , would say , think , best lie one appreciable amount truth look satan 's twist god 's word coerced eve interesting study similarity midst great variety expression different people 's ideas time immediately death testifies presence underlying reality yes , point two edged sword want underlying reality revealed known mystery religions reason public side private side , protected initiates oath death revealed private side hard bring teachings light mystery iniquity find bible , think primary object mysteries introduce privately , little little , seal secrecy sanction oath , would safe openly profess true religion case point today might masons \( note , worshipped osiris egypt , traced nimrod , husband son \) hand , one notion firmly embedded christianity originated definitely pagan source idea human consists essentially soul , soul created birth , consciously adopted aristotle , whose ideas dominated christian thought fifteen hundred years still today , disagree gerry know 're church , primarily rcc , endorse philosophy worldview , would disagree originated greece student history , come see much greece came expound world original , taken conquered countries soul clearly mentioned discussed length egyptian religions unity god also trinity god see find wilkinson 's egyptians really number greeks egyptians father modern thought time lived darkened time perception eternal spiritual grown dim i'm knocking aristotle plato greek thinker nothing new sun indeed also clarify deny eternal damnation real possibility narrow range conceive decisive moment , e end single earthly life , mind sufficient embrace reality , think early creeds terms try spell age focus theology early church struggled trinitarian formulation reformation dealt authority today , eschatology much study early creeds spell things detail , 1 \) n't topic concern , 2 \) insufficient wisdom accumulated , 3 \) n't exegetical tools today also , age seems air revelation one age well tended cultivated garden particular doctrine given growth would natural end times garden appropriate growth eschatology , would n't \? tangents , never ending tangents , rex
nabil cae wisc edu \( nabil ayoub \) subject monophysites mike walker organization u wisconsin madison college engineering lines 127 hello src readers , misconception copts among oriental orthodox churches believe monophysitism pops discussion ago article may 6 00 34 58 1993 geneva rutgers edu db7n andrew cmu edu \( andrew byler \) writes proper term mike expresses monophysitism heresy condemned council chalcedon 451 ad grew reaction nestorianism , held son jesus two different people happened united body temporarily monophysitism held copts egypt syria armenian orthodox ofm comments issues get mighty subtle see people saying different things 's often hard tell whether really mean seriously different things , whether using different terminology n't think 's question problem nestorius , would agree saying christ human form without real human nature heretical 'd like bit wary copts , armenians , etc recent discussions suggest monophysite position may far orthodoxy many thought appreciation moderator , believe needed excerpt article featured first issue copt net newsletter authority eastern roman empire constantinople \( opposed western empire rome \) , popes alexandria played leading roles christian theology invited everywhere speak christian faith st cyril , pope alexandria , head ecumenical council held ephesus year 430 said bishops church alexandria nothing spend time meetings leading role , however , fare well politics started church affairs started emperor interfered matters faith church response st , pope alexandria later exiled , interference clear nothing church political motives became even apparent chalcedon 451 , coptic church unfairly accused following teachings , believed monophysitism doctrine maintains lord jesus christ one nature , divine , two natures , human well divine coptic church never believed monophysitism way portrayed council chalcedon ! council , monophysitism meant believing one nature copts believe lord perfect divinity , perfect humanity , divinity humanity united one nature called nature incarnate word , reiterated st cyril alexandria copts , thus , believe two natures human divine united one without , without confusion , without alteration \( declaration faith end coptic divine liturgy \) two natures separate moment eye \( also declaration faith end coptic divine liturgy \) coptic church misunderstood 5th century council chalcedon perhaps council understood church correctly , wanted exile church , isolate abolish egyptian , independent pope despite , coptic church remained strict steadfast faith whether conspiracy western churches exile coptic church punishment refusal politically influenced , whether pope n't quite go extra mile make point copts monophysite , coptic church always felt mandate reconcile semantic differences christian churches aptly expressed current successor st mark , pope iii coptic church , faith important anything , others must know semantics terminology little importance us throughout century , coptic church played important role ecumenical movement coptic church one founders world council churches remained member council since 1948 coptic church member african council churches \( \) middle east council churches \( \) church plays important role christian movement conducting aiming resolving theological differences catholic , greek orthodox , presbyterian , evangelical churches final note , oriental orthodox eastren orthodox sign common statement christology , monophysitism condemned coptic orthodox church believe monophysitism peace , nabil nabil ayoub engine research center dept mechanical engineering university wisconsin madison email ayoub wisc edu ' ' mentioned brief apology , comment quoted confused appear say nestorius monophysite andrew byler correctly stated , nestorians monophysites actually opposite parties point making , nabil explains detail , groups considered heretical probably n't chalcedon compromise two groups , alexandrians adopted language intended acceptable moderates camps , ruling extremes agree extremes heretical however course complex politics time , appears people got rejected n't intend heresy , simply used language understood even seem jointed compromise reasons doctrine groups descended supposedly heretical camps posting discussed descendants alexandrians also remaining nestorians like current called monophysites , reason believe current called nestorians heretical either sheltered nestorius saw unfair treatment , claim adopt heresies , fact seem follow moderate representatives tradition clh
futon webo dg com \( taber \) subject question virgin mary lines 31 ddavis cass ma02 bull com \( dave davis \) writes much deletion trying explain immaculate conception assumption mary reason \( fallen \) humanity dies adam eve would died fallen true genesis story god concerned adam eve might also eat tree life live forever like gods \? eating tree life would take away effects eating tree knowledge reason assume already eaten tree life already attained eternal life \? , basis saying taken away \? wages sin spiritual death , necessarily physical death attest truth interpretation experience suspect many others could attest well peace william taber taber dg com opinions expressed data general corp futon webo dg com mine alone may westboro , mass change without notice dreams laid rest , get 's second best , 's hard get enough david
mnhcc cunyvm bitnet \( marty helgesen \) subject public private revelation \( formerly question virgin mary organization city university new york lines 35 mark ashley 's account private revelation , might think , contradict posting said catholic church believes public revelation , catholic doctrine based , ended death st john , last apostle posting made sure used word public public revelation contains god 's truth intended everyone believe revelation contained bible significant subset public revelation private revelation revelation god gives individual may speak directly individual , may send angel , may send virgin mary lesser saint person required believe private revelation person revealed devotional practices may based reported private revelations , doctrines alleged private revelation attracts sufficient attention , church may investigate investigation indicates likelihood alleged private revelation fact god , approved means preached church however , still true one required believe came god catholic free deny authenticity even well attested strongly approved private revelations , fatima lourdes \( suspect catholics reject fatima lourdes , rejection mean orthodox catholics good standing \) hand list criteria church uses evaluating alleged private revelation 's something need every day know one primary requirements nothing alleged private revelation contradict anything known public revelation marty helgesen bitnet mnhcc cunyvm internet mnhcc cunyvm cuny edu thing hypothetical situation \?
bruce liv ac uk \( bruce stephens \) subject question agnostic organization centre mathematical software research , univ liverpool lines 16 2 may 93 13 53 23 gmt , damon math okstate edu \( hastings damon tod \) said christian friend mine reasoned never created , could exist therefore created , therefore exists creator statement considered valid proof many christians \( followers religions , suppose \) \? rest deleted variant quite popular , arguments , discussed john leslie mackie 's miracle theism arguments existence god although mackie ultimately sides , arguments , think , quite fair sides brief discussions found alt atheism faqs bruce , university liverpool
futon webo dg com \( taber \) subject satanic tounges lines 38 pwhite empros com \( peter white \) relates story person gives message tongues consists entirely words ka asked refrain well , brother puka controlled , weeks later , church invited missionary speak time meeting tongues interpretation appropriate , arise speak brother puka went , words puka pastor apologize embarrassment missionary arose speak saying sorry interpretation could give translation tribe worked , one word language , puka meaning derived inflection voice qualities brother puka given perfectly reasonable message nice story sets urban legend \( charismatic legend \? \) alarms net identify language description \? even attest language exists seems odd enough \( least standards european languages \) exists , reasonably well known extreme case something basic dog story \? william taber taber dg com opinions expressed data general corp futon webo dg com mine alone may westboro , mass change without notice dreams laid rest , get 's second best , 's hard get enough david
db7n andrew cmu edu \( andrew byler \) subject question virgin mary organization freshman , civil engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 28 moderator noted , think mean assumption catholics believe blessed virgin mary went heaven body soul end life unusual normal course events body decay grave stay way resurrection dead well , n't way enoch elijah , translated directly heaven 's beyond grasp object mary , far greater either enoch elijah , benefit recieved , mother god , full grace , immaculate historically , belief assumption found writings st gregory tours \( late 6th century \) st germain constantinople st john damascus , st andrew , among others noted monophysite egypt syria also hold belief part divine revelation , even though broke away unity chruch 451 ad rejecting council chalcedon might argued protestants catholics orthodox made belief , monophysites , put big hole notion , also hold belief , split chruch belief first writing \( far known , much lost time fathers \) andy byler
student tc umn edu \( timothy richardson \) subject seeking christian opinion , sorts organization productions lines 22 subject seeking christian opinion , sorts rob steele , adam mit edu date 5 may 93 06 52 54 gmt mean fellow christians tend find wacky \? maybe 're right might interested schaeffer 's books philistines american christians addicted mediocrity recently sham pearls real one day years ago schaeffer walked greek orthodox church orthodox christian mother father , schaeffer , passed away would come church , like many americans recently found orthodox church , described experience finally coming home long desert also read book becoming orthodox peter describes long journey 2000 weary evangelical protestants orthodox church come taste see good lord timothy richardson student tc umn edu
db7n andrew cmu edu \( andrew byler \) subject nicene creed \( major views trinity \) organization freshman , civil engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 152 michael writes called creed athanasius , however , always western creed , always filioque orthodox said accept says , exception filioque , use exactly pointed \( though wrong use creed , 1913 catholic read said orthodox use creed minus filioque apparently changed \) athanasian creed always filioque , nicene constantinopolitan course orthodox delete filioque nicene creed \( n't begin \) , certainly athanasian creed , beginning might point whole problem started difference ways explaining generation blessed trinity , east emphasizing idea holy spirit proceeding father son , west using proceeding father son fact , , tertullian , used \( see \) following , therefore , form examples , profess call god word , father son , two root stem two things , conjoined fountain river two kinds , indivisible sun ray two forms , coherent ones anything proceeds another must necessarily second proceeds account separated second , however , two ther third , three spirit , , third god son , third root fruit stem , third fountain stream river , thrid sun apex ray tertullian , , 8 , 5 \( 213 ad \) believe spirit proceeds otherwise father son tertullian , , 4 , 1 \( 213 ad \) st thomas showed summa part 1 , question 36 , articles 2 3 , contradiction two methods generation , fact , two methods procession emphasize st augustine , among others taught , holy spirit proceeds father son , proceeds father way whatever son , father , certainly father holy spirit proceeds father alone another , reason alone called , , indeed , scriptures , practice theologians , employ terms able matter great son , however , born father holy spirit proceeds principally father , since father gives son without interval time , holy spirit proceeds jointly father son would called son father son , everyone sound mind , begotten spirit begotten , however , proceeds st augustine hippo , trinity , 15 , 26 , 47 \( 400 416 ad \) , sense , correct \( west least \) , holy spirit proceeds father son , proceeding son , orgin procession procession father , holy spirit proceeding father son , son father , holy spirit said proceed father , without mention son necessary case , happy know follow beliefs pope st leo , st , st cyril alexandria , pope st damsus , st augustine hippo , st , st ambrose milan , st hilary , tertullian , others among fathers , quotes supporting catholic position , issue adoption another creed forbidden , point holy fathers ephesus chalcedon spoke creed nicea statement forbidding anyone produce , write , compose confession faith one defined fathers nicea creed different creed constantinople , commonly called nicene creed course condemning adoption constantinopolitan creed , enlargement upon creed nicea , condemning opinions , adopted radically different creed one used church , among things denied procession holy spirit form son thus , additions constantinopolitan creed thought violation , council chalcedon also affirmed doctrine procession holy spirit son , nestorius denied , could hardly explaining fuller way creed , approved previous additions explanations creed made constantinople work done holy fathers nicea way heretical , follows council toledo fully able add disputed faithful creed combat spain , filioque dispute church many years later others filioque disputed , provide quotes since holy spirit us effects conformed god , actually proceeds father son , abundantly clear divine essence , essence proceeding st cyril alexandria , treasury holy consubstantial trinity , thesis 34 , \( 423 425 ad \) holy spirit father , son , spirit father son written anyone loves world , spirit father written anyone , however , spirit christ , none ' father son named way , holy spirit understood , son says gospel , holy spirit father , ' shall receive mine shall announce ' pope st , decree , 1 \( 382 ad \) begotten holy spirit neither name son father , called holy spirit , foreign father begotten calls `the spirit father , ' says proceeds father , ' receive mine , ' reckoned foreign son , substance , godhead spirit divine , god , god spirit god , spirit father , spirit son , kind synthesis , like soul body us , midst father son father son , third father always existed son always existed , spirit father son neither son created spirit created st \( cyprus \) , man well anchored , 8 75 \( 374 ad \) concerning holy spirit , ought remain silent , yet necessary speak still , account know , possible silent however necessary speak must acknowledged , father son , sources st hilary , , 2 , 29 \( 356 359 ad \) thus , pointed , gaul , spain , italy , africa , egypt , , lands greeks , time , fathers cited show confess doctrine expressed filioque suggest orthodox church come fathers , besides st john damascus admit denied filioque , support views enough bring proceeds father line creed gospel john , says believe also say holy spirit proceed son , proceed father andy byler
b8 ! anthony ingr com \( new user \) subject doctrine original sin organization intergraph lines 24 article may 2 09 48 32 1993 geneva rutgers edu , db7n andrew cmu edu \( andrew byler \) writes \( thor cf ac uk \) writes 4 \) nothing unclean shall enter heaven \( rev 21 27 \) therefore , babies born state die , god put hell , oh , must explain matthew 18 1 \) hour came disciples unto jesus , saying , greatest kingdom heaven \? 2 \) called little child , set midst , 3 \) said , verily say unto , except ye turn , become little children , ye shall wise enter kingdom heaven 14 \) even father heaven , one little ones perish nice thing bible , n't invent bunch convoluted understand , unlike arguments original sin face , original sin thought long bible written basis scriptures anthony
cs cmu edu \( thomas price \) subject serbian genocide work god \? organization school computer science , carnegie mellon lines 17 article apr 24 01 09 19 1993 geneva rutgers edu revdak netcom com \( andrew kille \) writes james sledd \( jsledd ssdc sas upenn edu \) wrote serbs work god \? hmm suggesting god supports genocide \? perhaps germans punishing jews god 's behalf \? god works way evil , unworthy worship faith might want think attitude holocaust reading deuteronomy chapter 28 tom price cs cmu edu free \? free \?
acs bu edu \( kenneth engel \) subject people become atheists \? organization boston university , boston , , usa lines 32 let tell story grew catholic 14 , n't issue met born christian , sweet person , \( sp \? \) , imposing tried get christian could , felt tried , depressed got felt guilty personal , honest feelings tried hard reconcile conflict 23 taught think rationally read lot books , pro con religion general , specifically , catholicism came crisis point , finally clicked staunch atheist loose explanation , 's gist , \( 26 \) feel better , better self esteem , generally stronger person well defined goals strong stable sense morals values neo nazi corrupt , etc believe human rights let among things anti violent anti hatred \( debunk myth atheists \) religion place system tough bertrand russell said cannot know god n't exist , ca n't prove , sense , truly agnostic , practical purposes god ken engel acs bu edu
cbnewsh att com subject christians martial arts organization lines 39 greetings ! would like get touch people \( \) consider christians \( define \) , \( b \) martial arts topics discussion particular martial art view relationship christianity art view relationship christianity art christian participate n't christian participate biblical views pro con example , heard one fellow tried christ thing n't \? aside , involved \( official way \) organization called christian black belt association would also like distribute info regarding upcoming events interested , wo n't put mailing list name sold however , email list , let know interested email replies cross posted groups n't normally read anyone wants summary , course , going discussion , let know shalom , robert switzer cbnewsh att com bell labs , 200 laurel ave , 2b 334 , middletown , nj usa \( 908 \) 957 2923 amateur radio operator robert switzer
sun075 ! gerry palo uunet uu net \( gerry palo \) subject good jewish arguments lines 90 pooh uccs edu \( kevin w \) wrote scott born phys virginia edu wrote intro deleted 1 \) jesus n't really descended david messiah supposed joseph , christians say joseph n't related jesus truthfully look christ luke 3 one matthew 1 notice trace different lines back david told one traces mary 's line back david traces joseph 's line back david \( go beyond david history \) jewish friends , jewishness passed child mother legal rights jewishness passed father true one mary 's , christ 's david mother also means christ legal rights david according least roman law \( possibly mosaic law well , sure \) joseph christ 's legal father argument luke 's genealogy mary weak according luke 3 23 began ministry , jesus thirty years age , supposedly son joseph , son eli , aside fact mary mentioned , two possible interpretations either joseph father brother clearly acceptable third would joseph , son eli , father happened name man betrothed would seem straightforward interpretation luke intention tracing mary 's genealogy \( case would named \) traces husband 's , david 's son nathan matthew descendant list definitely traces david 's son , solomon , joseph matthew 1 16 reads jacob born joseph , husband mary , born jesus , called christ two apparent problems first , reconcile two diverge sons david , solomon nathan second , genealogy joseph , joseph nothing joseph jesus 's physical father , original poster quite correct , claims jesus 's messianic heritage based truth appearances , whatever jesus 's divine nature second problem easy , mind assume joseph involved conception jesus way however , holy spirit capable working physical conception mary also capable employing physical agency joseph 's seed work materialistic times interpret loss solely terms physical act , whereas really matter purity much higher level well important thing neither mary joseph conscious union \( known \) thus first gospel 's dedication half opening chapter genealogy joseph quite relevant jesus , virgin birth withstanding first question answer creates , begin , problems two evangelists relating births two entirely different children two entirely different sets parents except names parents child , bethlehem point common two stories matthew luke converge accounts thirty years later baptism jesus jordan rudolf steiner offered explanation accounts begin two children converge accounts one jesus nazareth derive resolution biblical study speculation , external documents , discussion could might bring us beyond limits newsgroup case , details described steiner 's spiritual guidance human humanity , gospel st luke , gospel st matthew whether rudolf steiner 's methods explanation accepted valid , least interpretation apparent contradictions two leaving text intact passing one 's jewishness mother , never issue jesus one ever questioned mary 's jewishness issue line descent david , king gerry palo \( 73237 2006 compuserve com \)
acs bu edu \( kenneth engel \) subject atheists hell organization boston university , boston , , usa lines 18 imagine worst depth despair 've ever encountered , worst physical pain 've ever experienced people suffer emotional , physical , mental anguish lives deaths seem merciful least pain end death lived hundred lives , conclusion one instantly reborn another \? lived million , billion years state \? kept going forever \? happen jesus \? n't think , heard lived one day suffering died wages sin paragraph , jesus pay sins , \? 'd surprised see moderator let one , seriously want reasonable explanation ken
hudson athena cs uga edu \( paul hudson jr \) subject homosexuality issues christianity organization university georgia , athens lines 35 article may 6 00 35 17 1993 15441 geneva rutgers edu loisc microsoft com \( lois christiansen \) writes article apr 30 03 11 27 1993 geneva rutgers edu fsspr acad3 alaska edu wrote might visit congregations christians , happen homosexuals , spirit filled believers , gifts spirit seen endorsement ones behavior lot people suffered similar beliefs jesus said people would come saying lord , lord , proclaiming miraculous works done name jesus would tell workers iniquity know , depart say happen everyone commits homosexual sin holy spirit given morally perfect , would given , us god forgive sin , repent people careful think , god given gift spirit , must okay gay dangerous \( see also hebrews 6 holy spirit powers world come \) lord working community \( homosexual community , \) 's asking us change sexual nature , jesus n't ask us change nature cannot lift sin must submit hand changes nature practicing homosexual acts homosexual lusts violates morality god set forth n't believe , think us ignorant , least consider us weak faith sake 's practicing homosexuality worth cost soul , whether homosexual 's one considered ignorant \? link hudson
bcstec ca boeing com \( steve ward \) subject mormon temples organization boeing computer services lines 25 mserv mozart cc iup edu \( mail server \) writes one thing n't understand sacred make temple rituals secret attributes sacred case spoken common manner trampled feet lords name today ceremonies performed temple temple set aside sacred holy uncommon place believe ceremonies interpreted correctly viewed right spirit case temple point view , brought public , trampled feet , , therefore offensive us please assume use words 'we' i'm official spokesman lds church merely stating believe general feeling among us others feel free disagree steve ward bcstec ca boeing com
jhpb sarto budd lake nj us \( joseph h buehler \) subject immaculate conception organization none lines 21 maxwell c muir writes quick question mary immaculately , could pure vessel , mean without sin , therefore , perfect \( meaning sinless \) female human \? held highly catholic church despite 's basically structure \? immaculately conceived , never subject original sin , also never committed personal sin whole life possible special degree grace granted god regarded highly special relationship god , everything flows relationship catholic church sees new eve \( fathers early church use particular figure lot \) eve mother living genetic sense mary mother living order grace sin came eve , grace jesus christ came mary
sas upenn edu \( james r blankenship \) subject two people married god 's e organization school arts sciences , upenn lines 13 reason death penalty revenge \? \? going try refute position , try refute whole position speaking small piece problem broad sweeping reason , etc tough nut crack death penalty n't help much every year fbi releases crime stats showing overwhelming amount crime committed repeat offenders people killed folks killed \( knows many times \) folks death penalty , revenge , cut \? jim
noye midway uchicago edu \( vera shanti noyes \) subject serbian genocide work god \? lines 89 note original poster , answering think important article may 5 02 50 17 1993 athos rutgers edu db7n andrew cmu edu \( andrew byler \) writes revdak netcom com writes evil result human sinfulness , rather god certain sense yes sense god allows evil happen , obviously \( god \) could happen , certain sense mean wills happen god condone evil , instead uses good , say , however , god desires , must seperated actually happens example , god desires saved \( 1 timothy 2 4 \) , however , quite obvious nowhere near saved god 's thwarted \? , cannot escaped , even appears something , actually god grace disposed us wishes come age old question , evil occur \? must answer god allows evil occur , though condone , ultimate plan may brought sucess personally , suggest reading parts summa st thomas deal knowledge god get good grasp whole idea i'm going careful language think god voluntarily giving omniscience world decide go free sense god allows evil occur , sense held responsible says however , , course , saved 's going save us take step direction save us read last sentence carefully i'm saying save i'm saying accept salvation believe predestination would appear say stuff deleted saying anyone deserves punishment someone else simply pointing god could using serbians instruments punishment , israelites cannanites ok trouble , guess 's one things ca n't resolved argument accept interpretation deleted issue questioning god made world way god chooses , whether discerning world way god intends debate whether oppose serbians ethnic cleansing might god said christians participants wars mitigate fact god allows evil continue , patient willing none perish , waits turn evil indicates may believe predestination correct \? believe predestination believe choose whether accept god 's gift salvation us , fundamental difference ca n't really resolved yet deleted saying evil bosnians justified guilt saying possible god punishing way way evil justified , bu mean god cannot use evil purposes accusing bosnians , though may well guilty great sins , god judge defendants time comes judgement god let us sincerely hope pray jesus christ advocate judgement yes , god judge mete punishment last judgement , evil done human beings god 's best see good comes somehow thing worries god argument convince people stop rape killing think christ like jesus stopped stoning woman \( perhaps good parallel , i'm going go anyway \) , stop murder violation people may \( may \) innocent \? andy byler vera clock ! bind unto today vera noyes religion ! strong name noye midway uchicago edu ! trinity disclaimer lard st patrick 's breastplate disclaim \?
gchin ssf eng sun com \( gary chin \) subject two people married god 's e reply gchin ssf eng sun com organization sun microsystems , inc lines 32 article athos rutgers edu , cua edu \( al \) writes 's law wedding happen church \? bride marry also say christian wedding marriage nt really discussed bible mus person get civil marriage also \? standards look imposed upon god society want live someone , n't want civil marriage , n't n't want wedding church , n't want call marriage , go right ahead hope young people around , n't follow example gary chin staff engineer sun microsystems mt view , ca gchin eng sun com original message claims marriage discussed bible , disagree various aspects marriage discussed paul 's letters , ephesians 5 sees marriage symbol god 's relationship church means specifically marriage ceremony n't described , seems true think people mean christian marriage much takes place church parties undertake various commitments associated marriage bible clh
cheap cs utah edu \( jay \) subject mormon temples organization university utah cs dept lines 113 mserv mozart cc iup edu \( mail server \) writes one thing n't understand sacred make temple rituals secret sacred 's secret explanation bit misleading profound reverence temple endowment , discussing ceremony public since public discussion often , mormons would rather keep silent practice certain elements ceremony participants explicitly covenant reveal except conjunction ceremony granted , gnostic christians secret rituals , seem taken entirely pagan pre christian mystery religions interpretations christian history matter one must recall know gnostics written enemies eusebius claims jesus imparted secret information peter , james , john resurrection , apostles transmitted information rest twelve \( eusebius , ii 1 3 4 \) irenaeus claims information passed priests bishops \( heresies iv 33 8 \) , eusebius disagrees claims secret ceremonies christian church perished apostles interestingly enough , eusebius refers groups today call gnostics false gnosis \( eusebius , op cit , iii , 32 7 8 \) gripe thay professed gnosis , wrong one writings dealing jesus' post resurrection teachings emphasize secrecy much policy teaching certain things indiscriminately one story , simon magus opens dialog peter nature god peter 's response seem know father god could tell whence souls , made permitted disclose things \( clementine ii , 60 \) one theme underlies idea certain doctrines taught , certain level spiritual maturity reached one approach evidence many ways n't intend everyone interpret christian history , believe evidence exists \( favorably interpreted , course \) early christian rites analogous practiced mormons today neither new testament christianity biblical judaism made secret practices judaism christianity ceremonies , would expect read public documents \? one search book mormon mormon scripture find almost information temple worship yes , could establish mormons worship temples , would probably hard pressed characterize worship basis , conclude bible explains practices might taken place , absence descriptions proves exist \? mormon scholar dr hugh nibley offers us list scriptures taken 1 given unto know mysteries kingdom heaven , given \( matt 13 11 \) 2 men cannot receive saying , save given \( matt 19 11 \) 3 yet many things say unto , ye cannot bear \( john 16 12 \) 4 time cometh , shall speak unto proverbs , shall plainly father \( john 16 25 \) 5 unspeakable words , lawful man utter \( 1 cor 3 1 2 \) 6 many things would write paper ink come unto speak face face \( 2 jn 1 12 \) \( nibley , since , pp 92 94 \) , also interpreted many different ways believe serve show doctrines could taught actually taught openly heard joseph smith took entire practice \( e ritual secrecy surrounding ritual \) anybody know authoritative information whether claim true \? historically , joseph smith temple endowment ceremony nearly year joining diary evidence supports claim rite change smith became mason argued smith ample exposure masonic proceedings time brother \( mason \) , though specific connection yet established conversations masons \( respect temple rite appeared net \) led believe connection masonry mormonism fairly tenuous moderator notes , similar removed recent revisions temple ceremony believe critics charge mormon rites lifted freemasonry adequate knowledge rites question jay university utah salt lake city asylum cs utah edu
aidler sol uvic ca \( e alan idler \) subject mormon temples organization university victoria lines 80 mserv mozart cc iup edu \( mail server \) writes bcstec ca boeing com \( steve ward \) writes dan kuhub cc ukans edu writes dan 's question mormon temple rituals deleted brevity thought would interject , believe dan say n't mean offend us lds temple , temple ceremonies sacred much anyone goes promises never divulge much trust someone telling \? one thing n't understand sacred make temple rituals secret lots sacred things christianity , including sacred scriptures , nothing secret things appropriate lord reveal certain things world \( e , publish widely \) \? things sacred may place pre post conditions feels necessary moreover , precedents scripture knowledge sacred things 1 jesus instructed peter , james , john tell vision man , son man risen dead \( matt 17 9 \) living time savior , would \( public \) record event 2 faithful friend paul experiences vision paradise heard unspeakable words , lawful man utter \( 2 cor 12 4 \) person heard something paul write corinthians \( us \) 3 incident recorded book mormon words uttered babes forbidden man write \( 3 26 16 , entire text follows without access bom \) 3 26 16 behold , came pass morrow multitude gathered together , saw heard children yea , even babes open mouths utter marvelous things things utter forbidden man write lds scholars speculate words could written sacred portions temple withhold world \( could something else \) understand mormons would limit temple access faithful mormons , never understood emphasis temple ritual mystery much discuss temple ordinances discuss regarding ordinances dead discuss certain concepts regarding endowment \( ritual \) however , certain elements discuss anyone \( including saints \) outside temple portion endowment , receive tokens signs permit us access heaven must keep knowledge sacred respect conditions revealed idler
eugene bigelow ebay sun com \( geno \) subject doctrine original sin reply eugene bigelow ebay sun com organization sun microsystems , inc lines 14 4 \) nothing unclean shall enter heaven \( rev 21 27 \) therefore , babies born state die , god put hell , exactly doctrine st augustine st thomas , original sins thier souls , suffer punishment , loss vision presence god , change undeniable fact cannot possibly come original sin , inherit eternal life , st augustine said , heretics taught said later , want christian , teach infants come original sin n't bible say god fair god \? true , possibly fair infants \?
mdw33310 uxa cso uiuc edu \( michael walker \) subject question virgin mary organization university illinois urbana lines 19 two follow 's mark 's last posting 1 far current investigations , church recently declared crying statue corresponding messages mary akita , japan approved \( found month ago \) 2 proof department , start appearances mary fatima among things , pictures taken miracle sun appeared major american newspaper \( new york times , believe \) well major european newspapers could talk \( post \) hours topic , \( thesis write \) god bless , mike walker p anyone want info , mdw33310 uxa cso uiuc edu
mdw33310 uxa cso uiuc edu \( michael walker \) subject portland earthquake organization university illinois urbana lines 67 saturn wwc edu \( austin c archer \) writes interested views non event may 3 seriously , christian discriminate messages god taken seriously , spurious \? useful would help us avoid embracing messages , non fulfillment proven false , thus causing name christ placed disrepute \? problem \? believe careful understanding scripture help us seems anytime proven events mistaken , points serious failure understanding god 's result accept truth must hasten add always skeptical , even cynical , prophesies tend concerning clearly , many christians put much stock church represents christ world , christians must avoid made laughing stock world , lest , often cry wolf , less seriously tend taken comments \? good point true false predictions dangerous warned \( \) scripture false however , often case issues , one cannot let report visions reason believing \( get impression asserting , way consider response much response posting response topic whole \) example appearances mary fatima , portugal 1917 among things , predicted conversion russia atheism \( something happened less year later w bolshevik revolution \) also predicted second world war \( , predicted would occur papacy certain pope , current one happened like said \) warned would fire sky warning second world war start week germany invaded , \( women , suppose \) europe , england spain eastern europe , reported spectacular color sky ever recorded day try explain northern lights , relation mary 's prediction simply coincidence decide mary predicted atheistic russia would spread evils world persecute religion said many things well , numerous list every single one realized one use term coincidence many times explanation use becomes ridiculous yes , many false prophets many false reports true ones , must always remain open fatima one example another one , currently occuring apparitions taking place , yugoslavia \( whatever called \) mary appearing every day eleven years 's time world started listening info available want peace christ lord , mike walker mdw33310 uxa cso uiuc edu
aaronc athena mit edu \( aaron bryce cardenas \) subject arrogance christians organization massachusetts institute technology lines 45 news cbnewsk att com writes arrogance arrogance result religion , result people knowing firmly believing idea one 's desire show others one 's rightness assume god decided judge sake much , allow kind merciful judge , 'll probably better others judged us judged 1 cor 11 31 32 judged , would come judgment judged lord , condemned world 1 cor 5 3 even though physically present , spirit already passed judgment one , present 1 cor 2 15 16 spiritual man makes judgments things , subject man 's judgement 'for known mind lord may instruct \? ' mind christ jude 14 15 enoch , seventh adam , prophesied men , lord coming thousands upon thousands holy ones judge everyone , convict ungodly ungodly acts done ungodly way , harsh words ungodly sinners spoken ' arrogance sin although desire show others one 's rightness may sign arrogance cases , may sign following bible others jude 22 23 merciful doubt others fire save others show mercy , mixed fear hating even clothing corrupted flesh find someone arrogant , typically n't anything hope n't find arrogant , sounds like bad practice ignoring certain people say perceive arrogant james 1 19 dear brothers , take note everyone quick listen , slow speak slow become angry , aaron
eugene bigelow ebay sun com \( geno \) subject christianity repeated lives reply eugene bigelow ebay sun com organization sun microsystems , inc lines 13 nothing christianity precludes idea repeated lives earth paragraph new testament opinion , clearly makes positive inference reincarnation n't remember one top head , basically goes like jesus talking apostles ask pharisees say messiah come , elijah must first come jesus replies elijah come , recognize says apostles perceived refering john baptist seems clearly imply reincarnation anyone offer reasonable alternative interpretation \? would interested hear
koberg spot colorado edu \( allen koberg \) subject satanic tounges organization university colorado , boulder lines 49 article may 6 00 34 49 1993 geneva rutgers edu marka hcx1 ssd csd harris com \( mark ashley \) writes article may 2 09 50 21 1993 geneva rutgers edu mmh dcs qmw ac uk \( matthew huntbach \) writes seen claims , n't know authenticated cases people making prolonged speeches real languages n't know observations , speaking tongues practice nothing simple test take several people speak one language \( e g chinese , russian , german , english \) let gifted one start speaking toungues audience understand gifted one clearly native language however , gifted one hear speaking language seem many points speaking tongues thing problematic 's use prayer language seems especially troubling understand pray tongues , spirit talking pray , pray god spirit god , spirit talking go pentecost use 's actual language moreover , phrase though speak tongues men angels used paul cor misleading context would assume angelic tongue , speak , known language , angelic tongue hmmm old testament story tower babel , see god punished giving us different language assume angels language , one amongst angels \? , punished manner supposed angelic tongues sound different one another \? 's disturbing think people find ways justify 'll buy idea someone could talk language never learned trouble , stories abound , attempts verification \( test spirit \) either show witness real idea circumstances , outright fabrication involved brother puka story previous post seems like friend friend thing , two syllable word hardly qualifies language , inflection much many faith healers trouble proving victories \( since cured plain unprovable \) modern day never validated , true modern day proved clergy lay
dxf12 po cwru edu \( douglas fowler \) subject giving spiritual gifts reply dxf12 po cwru edu \( douglas fowler \) organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 20 thought 'd share nice experience exam today walking streets campus , beggar came asked spare change might dollar gave , wanting give away money strangers \( generally give dollar buy little food mcdonalds something \) offered spiritual gifts , called , rather gifts money talked great felt god made pretty day , nice give people said getting married soon talked husband little \( may even house , know \) , felt special love lord , kind caring warmed heart know 2 people little , realize spiritually indeed rich good lesson us say want , , really need cannot counted , sold , bought doug fowler dxf12 po cwru edu heaven great big hug lasts forever one great scorer comes mark name writes , whether 've lost , played game rice
daniels math ufl edu \( tv 's big dealer \) subject variants nt text \( cont \) organization whatever lines 6 wish echo andrew kille wrote know published form english type recension acts course , bezae quite bizarre gospels well type texts share bezae 's strange readings way , stands codex elsewhere frank
salaris niblick ecn purdue edu \( rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrabbits \) subject satan kicked heaven biblical \? organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 23 article may 7 01 09 04 1993 athos rutgers edu , easteee wkuvx1 bitnet writes hello , question satan taught long time ago satan really angel god kicked heaven challenged god 's authority problem , cannot find bible bible \? , originate \? satan one god 's highest ranking angels , like , raphael , michael , gabriel fact , name challenge god 's authority got kicked heaven lot mythology satan \( lost el suffix fell \) comes book enoch found bible read book enoch , available thru bookstores , get book called angels endangered species \( think \) steven c salaris 're lot dangerous 2 live crew salaris wustl edu stupid use foul language ideas philosophy geoff tate queensryche
noye midway uchicago edu \( vera shanti noyes \) subject people become atheists \? reply noye midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 92 article may 7 01 09 59 1993 14571 athos rutgers edu mayne nu cs fsu edu writes article may 5 02 50 42 1993 athos rutgers edu fil sapienza med umich edu \( fil sapienza \) writes atheists atheists believes could result condescending best slightly ad hominem attack attitude part many theists , especially vocal ones , one reason hostility sense like atheists say people turn religion immature emotionalism \? agree going find anything people n't share beliefs , attack hope get neutral picture come open mind n't believe atheists generally broken anybody else cause effect likely way emotional price pay different , hearing one 's beliefs \( lack thereof \) condemned , one 's motives character attacked well , believe something , see , even sort anti belief \( negative connotation meant mean simply believe god exist \) christians also feel sense difference , however , associated weird always talk satan 'll excuse sound , everyone deal differences people understand atheist could hard christian sometimes hard became atheist got old enough reason good reason believe religion taught painful pressure placed family friends wanted fit , believe , accepted tried , finally cognitive great repress feel able discuss without fear think admirable things learn belief , asking questions atheists may ask , learn answers become stronger faith faith ca n't support knowing answers questions , weak untrue sympathy gays growing repressive environments hide sometimes first try deny part 've case rationality instead sexuality forced try repress way pressures different , course , chose beliefs saying choice , born necessity \? please , flames whether gay people choose lifestyle 's elsewhere newsgroup must say n't hurt experiences church friends n't become atheists hurt differently i'm sure understand sentence could explain \? moderator points many atheists n't hostile , cease religion true consider also people like pat robertson many christian extremists soc religion christianity naturally hostility attacks anyone disagrees attempts force views others known company keep christians trying preach alt atheism surprised hostility ouch , yes part christian accepting everyone open heart including people camp completely disagree token , believe accusation suspicion best way reach faith , effective try people accepting religion different idea mission , christian happy faith , others see want know either happiness religion , 'll share know without pressure let make decisions point agree disagree acceptance diversity , , way peace bill mayne vera noyes clock ! bind unto today vera noyes religion ! strong name noye midway uchicago edu ! trinity disclaimer lard st patrick 's breastplate disclaim \?
noye midway uchicago edu \( vera shanti noyes \) subject satan kicked heaven biblical \? reply noye midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 42 article may 7 01 09 04 1993 athos rutgers edu easteee wkuvx1 bitnet writes hello , question satan taught long time ago satan really angel god kicked heaven challenged god 's authority problem , cannot find bible bible \? , originate \? workshop episcopalian student gathering couple months ago wanted know answer far could tell , although story never specifically told bible , many references made , primarily new testament old testament actually entirely different view satan \( excuse pun \) devil 's advocate yahweh see book job getting back fallen angel story , references lucifer bible except morning star king james version \( isaiah 14 12 \) , probably referred babylonian monarch much sun king referred louis xiv , n't know story came may rolling around long time , milton \( paradise lost \) may invented sorry rest , hurry need eat lunch ! feel free email stuff found \( although lot result bible concordance program called 's really lousy , way n't buy \) wondering , eddie western kentucky \) \) \) university \( \( \( \( easteee wkuvx1 bitnet hope helped ! vera je une ame , qui course n't agree farmer 's religious views je suis think 're interesting generation \( vera noyes \) farmer noye midway uchicago edu
husc3 harvard edu subject monophysites mike walker organization harvard university science center lines 113 article may 6 00 34 58 1993 geneva rutgers edu , db7n andrew cmu edu \( andrew byler \) writes mike walker using standard formula fully god fully human , i'm sure object saying jesus human think usual analysis would sin part basic definition humanity 's consequence fall jesus human , fallen human clh differ moderator thought whole idea god coming earth live one us subject sin death \( one consecration prayers book common prayer \( 1979 \) puts \) jesus tempted , succumb sin part basic definition humanity , jesus fully human \( nicea \) would subject sin , resurrection loses meaning , encounter humanity sin distinguish human fallen human makes jesus less like one us time need issues get mighty subtle see people saying different things 's often hard tell whether really mean seriously different things , whether using different terminology n't think 's question problem nestorius , would agree saying christ human form without real human nature heretical 'd like bit wary copts , armenians , etc recent discussions suggest monophysite position may far orthodoxy many thought nestorius extreme representative one two major schools thought moderate representatives regarded orthodox , e g theodore impression modern monophysite groups inherit entire tradition , version , may sufficient balanced position regarded orthodox clh first , monophysites inherited none nestorius 's version opposite end spectrum second , historical record suggests positions attributed nestorius extreme \( successful \) opponents \( wrote conventional history \) claimed mainly nestorius opposed term theotokos mary , arguing \( think correctly \) human could called mother god mean , athanasian creed talk son surely even would concede jesus existed long mary anyway , nestorius 's opponents claimed saying mary theotokos , claimed gave birth human nature jesus , would require two seperate distinct natures argument fails though , mary simply gave birth jesus , either divinely , accept nestorianism commonly defined , natures , la chalcedon second , sure nestorianism better alternative orthodox view , find hard believe pre incarnation jesus 's human nature heaven likewise post ascension think rather god came earth took nature upon seperate nature , capable tempted \( since believe divine nature could never tempted \) moments weakness divine nature prevailed comments warmly appreciated jason albert may differences mean subject sin original complaint someone n't see could call jesus fully human , n't sin completely agree jesus subject temptation simply object idea , thereby fully human believe sin order human apologize confusing nestorianism monophysitism agree , said elsewhere , 's reason think everyone associated heretical positions fact heretical scholars maintain nestorius confess first time read correspondence nestorius opponents , thought got better however , scholars believe work eventually led chalcedon advance , nestorius least rash dogmatic \( editor controversy refers \) rejecting approaches regular usenet readers know , narrowness much impediment wrong furthermore , say things think responds rather mild letter cyril flame worthy usenet says attribute also logos , name incarnation characteristics flesh conjoined , brother , either work mind truly fashion greeks mind insane heresy others thus carried away idea association bound , , make divine logos part fed milk participate degree stand need angelic assistance things taken falsely put deity become occasion condemnation us falsehood 's well good maintain proper distinction humanity divinity whole concept incarnation based exactly idea divine logos fact degree part born , growing , dying course must understood 's certain participation things must sort identification divine human , n't incarnation nestorius seemed think black white terms , missed sorts nuances one needs deal area say find hard believe pre incarnation jesus 's human nature heaven n't think 's required orthodox doctrine 's divine logos eternal clh
ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) subject translations organization university virginia lines 2 version bible consider accurate translation \?
salaris niblick ecn purdue edu \( rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrabbits \) subject satan mtv organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 25 somewhere , someone told satan angel charge music heaven , top , beautiful angels n't funny days mtv become bible music beauty days mtv controls bands popular , matter bad fact , better politically correct like u2 , madonna musical talent course , television station tells us dress think , started retro fashion \? \? mtv madonna gag anyway , food thought really wierd theory revelation come true today , think mtv would ever changing waters \( music fashion world \) beast would arise , madonna whore babylon , riding beast drinking blood martyrs hmmmm great idea book movie steven c salaris 're lot dangerous 2 live crew salaris wustl edu stupid use foul language ideas philosophy geoff tate queensryche
sas upenn edu \( ken banner \) subject satanic tounges organization university pennsylvania lines 51 article may 5 02 53 10 1993 athos rutgers edu koberg spot colorado edu \( allen koberg \) writes dis even among charismatic organizations proper use tongues interpretation , prayer use , signifying believers \( doubt since one \) pentecostals \( assembly god , church christ \) , seem espouse three neo pentecostals tend view prayer use sign uses speaking tongues service usually done neo pentecostals part , still attend protestant churches non denominational churches seem view use sign merely optional , recommended koberg , couple minor corrections 1 \) churches christ usually believe speaking tongues , fact many known strongly opposed pentecostal teaching probably thinking church god christ , largest african american pentecostal denomination 2 \) i'm sure mean signifying believers pointed god , ever , held speaking tongues sign one christian doctrine traditional pentecostals \( including g \) maintain speaking tongues sign second experience becoming christian one baptized holy spirit may referring , point pentecostals frequently labeled believing speak tongues order christian position held groups majority pentecostals many pentecostals quote passage mark 16 signs following believe generally interpret meaning n't signs n't saved 3 \) know 's hard summarize beliefs movement diversity , think 've made pretty big generalizations neo pentecostals believe tongues sign tongues prayer tongues message \? 've never heard fact would characterized believing pentecostals except less likely see tongues sign spirit baptism also , neo pentecostals may inclined speak tongues non pentecostal churches attend , meetings , many cases , whole church charismatic ken banner dept religious studies university pennsylvania sas upenn edu
edu \( carol \) subject major views trinity lines 28 ann jackson \( ajackson cs ubc ca \) wrote 5 may article may 2 09 50 06 1993 geneva rutgers edu jim green writes ca n't someone describe someone 's trinity simple sentences words common meaning \? answer question appears would like submit following helped enormously already posted , apologize seems middle ages , customary pastors explain trinity analogy water water water , exist three forms liquid , ice vapor thus possible one essence exist three forms recently , pastor church drew analogy , also found useful woman often percieved others three ways , depending relationship mother , wife employee business thus , seems clear essence god father , son , holy spirit , depending one 's particular need carol
todd nickel laurentian ca subject homosexuality issues christiani organization laurentian university lines 27 one thinks homosexuality christianity compatible ck romans 1 27 corinthians 6 9 timothy 1 10 jude 1 7 ii peter 2 6 9 gen 19 lev 18 22 \( name verses pertain homosexuality \) christ 's love , bryan whitsell waiting think question rephrased many verses bible condem homosexuality \( beliefs \) shoved throats homosexuals long time \( well meaning \? \) christians question interpret verses discussion issue \( issue \) requires proof case well disproof opposing view already familiar verses many proven condem homosexual behaviour must establish reasons believing true based interpretation scriptures given someone come grips todd
moy nyu edu \( moy \) subject apology organization new york university lines 3 responded post last week carried somewhat hostile tone apologizing intent create piss people offend , i'm sorry
mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) subject national repentance reply magnus acs ohio state edu organization ai programs , university georgia , athens lines 29 concerning christians praying forgiveness national sins , michael covington claims following c lewis c lewis made point essay world war ii , christian leaders britain urging national repentance horrors \( sins \? \? \? \) world war ii michael covington , associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu university georgia phone 706 542 0358 athens , georgia 30602 7415 u amateur radio n4tmi surprised heard kind remark fellow grad student know , especially since seminary training read essay find lewis making claim rather , lewis condemning use prayer efforts platforms make political opponents , feigned confessions guilt \( ie , lord please forgive us allowing insert political issue idea platform exist country , wrong ask forgiveness \) would interested knowing part essay feel condemns national repentance \( please quote \) jonathan graduate research associate , medicine div ohio state university , rm 431 , perry st columbus , oh 43210 magnus acs ohio state edu
usc edu \( brian \) subject mary 's assumption organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 34 points mary 's taken heaven end life earth one piece evidence mary 's assumption heaven fact christian church ever claimed sight buried christian churches claimed located final resting places peter , mark , saints , one ever claimed possess body mary , greatest saints \? everyone knew taken heaven although definitive scriptural proof assumption mary , passages seem suggestive , like passage revelation describes woman giving birth son later heavens course , woman passage interpretations also taken symbol church assumption mary makes sense relationship christ jesus , perfect god perfect man , fulfilled requirements law perfectly law god gave us , honor mother father , christ 's act taking mother heaven part fulfillment law also , took flesh , seems appropriate decide allow flesh rot grave one last point ex catholic attempted explain catholic doctrine assumption asserting connected belief mary die correct summary catholics believe dogma assumption carefully phrased avoid saying whether mary die fact , consensus among catholic theologians seems mary fact die would make sense christ died , mother , waited foot cross , would want share death brian
gideon otago ac nz \( gideon king \) subject christians fight \? justifiable war organization university otago lines 144 posted couple weeks ago , n't seem appeared newsgroup , n't reply moderator intermittent problems mail time please excuse seen christians fight \? last week alastair posted questions fighting , whether things justifiable wars started looking things findings go n't answered questions yet , know slightly different tack , possibly 'll able get deeply later , post info soon duty neighbour good men \( gal 6 10 \) love neighbour \( matt 22 39 \) act part good samaritan \( luke 10 \) toward may trouble therefore render every possible assistance injured man , therefore part organisation causes people harm \( even medical corps army etc \) christians faith citizens commonwealth israel \( ephesians 2 11 12 \) , also recognise god rules kingdoms men , therefore taking part struggles nations part due faith strangers pilgrims amongst nations , passing , part nation national aspirations \( also applied politics etc , 's another story \) supposed strive resist evil \( even suffer \) therefore us strive assist preserving state christ destroy returns set god 's kingdom duty state render therefore unto caesar things caesar 's unto god things god 's \( luke 20 25 \) let every soul subject unto higher powers power god powers ordained god whosoever power , ordinance god \( rom 13 1 2 \) submit every ordinance man lord 's sake whether king supreme god well ye may put silence ignorance foolish men \( 1 pet 2 13 15 \) scriptures make clear submission powers divine command , equally clear acts 5 19 29 ordinance man runs counter god 's law , must refuse submission reason god 's bond servants service life 's task example type thing col 3 22 23 work heartily unto lord also work boss god e pressed , shaken together , running oops bit side track contests nations , god 's side side fighting battle , testifying truth believe god embrace promises , become fellow citizens saints household god , longer interested associations world think relation unions etc well paul tells us lay aside every weight may run race set us , wise , discard association would retard progress thou therefore endure good soldier jesus christ man affairs life , may please hath chosen soldier \( 2 tim 2 3 4 \) one warns ye yoked together unbelievers one obvious applications marriage unbelievers , also covers things like business position may form close association person persons believing truth god \( case army \) principle comes deut 22 10 remember well different animals different strengths , one clean one unclean law ideas strongly stressed 2 cor 6 13 18 suggest read also another aspect , jesus says take yoke upon , yoked christ cannot yoked unbelievers already seen christ , paul says become ye men \( 1 cor 7 23 rv \) example old testament question asked 2 chr 19 2 thou help ungodly \? situation good example happens yoked together unbelievers lucky escape life facts 1 made affinity , sold work wickedness lord \( 1 kings 21 25 \) 2 asked form military alliance , agreed said thou art , people thy people \( 1 kings 22 4 \) unequal 3 firm refusing advice false prophets insisted hearing prophet lord \( trying right thing \) , found yoked therefore could n't break away evil association made god says us come among ye separate , touch unclean thing , receive ye shall sons daughters \( 2 cor 6 17 \) less found far i'm still looking , n't think 've answered questions raised alastair yet heres summary things think christian command obedience command essential factor relationship christ \( john 15 10 , 14 \) total dedication course action required \( romans 12 1 2 \) disobedience compromises close relationship christ followers \( 1 pet 2 7 8 \) separated god \( rom 6 4 \) involves master servant relationship \( rom 6 12 , 16 \) man serve two masters \( matt 6 24 , 13 , 14 \) lust pride quite opposed \( 1 john 2 16 \) christs kingdom world \( e worldly nature \) , servants would fight deliver christ master delivered servants kingdom world , servants cannot possibly fight another master strangers pilgrims rights , cannot swear allegiance anyone god servant lord must war gentle \( 2 tim 2 24 \) apply war , also avoiding strife throughout lives war waged , man 's weapons \( 2 cor 10 3 4 \) , god 's armour \( 13 20 \) 'll probably post 've time look things bit gideon king phone 64 3 479 university otago fax 64 3 479 department computer science e mail gideon otago ac nz p box 56 dunedin next mail preferred ! new zealand
simon giaeb cc monash edu au subject st maria goretti organization monash university , melb , australia lines 125 heres life st maria goretti , posted kind permission editor australian catholic magazine morning star hope like put anything prevent sin st maria goretti maria born october 16th 1890 luigi goretti , daughter family seven cheerful girl , always parents one , one wish receive lord blessed date finally set little maria receive lord feast corpus christi maria , time seemed like slowly great day finally arrived , fr jerome \( priest celebrate mass give children first holy communion \) delivered sermon immense love jesus christ great love return warmly urged die rather commit mortal sin maria humbly approached altar god received holy eucharist sadness thought father 's absence , died time beforehand rest day , maria remained spell divine visit 4 thoughts changed could go next holy communion thus ended day maria 's life next twelve months , maria changed little girl quiet young lady responsibilities mother went fields place husband , maria took , cooking , washing motherly duties family , also , father son lived goretti 's , owning share farm although maria poorer children , far surpassed virtue thi holy god month june , alessandro \( son \) twice made advances upon maria alone occasions maria managed struggle free alessandro 's strong grip , second , threatened kill even uttered word mother day , maria lived terror , fearing lest alessandro attack july 5th 1902 , alessandro left work fields get , claimed went beneath house maria , outside landing baby , could hear tools wondered later learned 91 2 blade went house called maria told would n't go unless knew needed stormed landing dragged room mar ia instantly realized , , ! touch ! sin , go hell ! point alessandro held knife maria 's chest , floor \? maria gathered energy , alessandro , ! chosen martyrdom sin , god satan overcome rage , alessandro plunged knife maria 's breast fourteen times finally came senses thought maria dead frantically threw knife behind closet locked room crying baby teresa landing brought attention father alessandro baby unattended danger falling , ran house find maria , , covered blood , dragging door asked happened said alessandro stabbed wanted make wrong would ambulance arrived , police took alessandro away ambulance carried maria hospital , large crowd followed foot doctors hospital held hope poor little maria fr jerome gave maria first communion 5 came administer last rites give holy asked maria would forgive murderer yes love jesus forgive wish one day join paradise may god forgive , maria died three o'clock alessandro tried found guilty maria 's death age sentenced thirty years prison eight years violent prisoner show ing regret crime , saw dream , midst field flowers , maria holding bunch white soon later wrote local bishop , begging god 's par grave sin committed later gave testimony maria 's 1947 less three years later , ju ne 24th 1950 , maria goretti first mother ever present daughter 's may st maria goretti help us pure grant us strength die rather commit mortal sin saint maria goretti , pray us brendan arthur internet simon giaeb cc monash edu au rey ! ! long live christ king
erh0362 tesla njit edu subject mormon beliefs bastards organization new jersey institute technology lines 14 could anyone enlighten mormon church views children born wedlock \? particular i'm interested know stigma attached children opposed parents i'm especially keen learn prohibition mormon faith bastards entering heaven names entered big genealogical book mormons keep salt lake city issue official position changed time , i'm interested learning old new beliefs e mail posting fine information pointers appreciated elliotte rusty harold department mathematics shiva njit edu new jersey institute technology erh0362 tesla njit edu newark , nj
mpaul unl edu \( marxhausen paul \) subject national repentance organization university nebraska lincoln lines 37 mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) writes heard radio today christian student conference christians called repent america 's national sins , sexual promiscuity repent someone else 's sin \? ca n't claim repent someone else 's sin , fact judging \? jesus equipped us judge activities warned us judge people judge ye judged strictly speaking , 're right ca n't repent somebody else , 've done guess n't think 's line talk generalized contribution participation sins society , tacit approval \( silence \) sinful attitudes practices may 're also plain begging mercy , hoping god withhold hand judgement whole country sake , much abraham sought sake lot \( hmmm , results pretty \) times lately 've observed either sinful activity , self destructive activity , 've gotten strong impression many folks really n't know better christ 's pity crowds like sheep without shepherd rings true folks n't clue , bear responsibility communicated better way \? worse still expressed judgement disgust doings , thus alienated positive relationship whereby might pass along anything positive \? know 've got something repent score anyway , 's real interesting question paul marxhausen university nebraska lincoln grace happens
gt7122b prism gatech edu \( randal lee nicholas mandock \) subject people become atheists \? organization georgia institute technology lines 33 article may 7 01 09 44 1993 14556 athos rutgers edu muirm argon gas organpipe uug arizona edu \( maxwell c muir \) writes , would happy proven wrong believing atheism problem , proven wrong mentioning nonsense psychology \) atheism , bob muir asks following question sound broken \? answer affirmative answer might sound little intellectually dishonest bob , think accused heinous crime man enough take ! \) thinking person one time accused \? politically correct christians besieged group permitted luxury arrogance \? question bob world would self respecting atheist want subscribe christian news group \? difficult enough time keeping , think know something subject bob reminds roommate order disbelieve atheism , says need proven wrong well , n't even waste time trying tell 'll take word response , tells say atheist 's prayer good luck , bob , best regards randal lee nicholas mandock catechist gt7122b prism gatech edu
mdw33310 uxa cso uiuc edu \( michael walker \) subject satan kicked heaven biblical \? organization university illinois urbana lines 27 easteee wkuvx1 bitnet writes hello , question satan taught long time ago satan really angel god kicked heaven challenged god 's authority problem , cannot find bible bible \? , originate \? wondering , eddie quick answer revelation 12 7 9 war heaven michael angels fought dragon angels fought back dragon strong enough , lost place heaven great dragon hurled ancient serpent , called devil satan , leads whole world astray hurled earth , angels earlier part chapter 12 deals \( \) satan rose battle michael good angels first place hope clears mike walker
mdw33310 uxa cso uiuc edu \( michael walker \) subject doctrine original sin organization university illinois urbana lines 24 quick reminder way interpreting passages opinion make sound opinion somehow fact many would interpret passages cite differently \( many several great theologians mentioned thing people much expertise interpretation scripture probably anyone reading newsgroup say wrong right , opinion , \( notice last three words \) coming pretty darn close sin pride future would suggest absolutist interpretations , especially contradicting highly respected doctors christianity mike walker mdw33310 uxa cso uiuc edu \( univ illinois \)
mls panix com \( michael siemon \) subject homosexuality issues christianity organization panix public access unix , nyc lines 25 may 7 01 08 16 1993 14381 athos rutgers edu whitsebd nextwork rose hulman edu \( bryan whitsell \) writes one thinks homosexuality christianity compatible check romans 1 27 corinthians 6 9 timothy 1 10 jude 1 7 ii peter 2 6 9 gen 19 lev 18 22 \( name verses pertain homosexuality \) homosexual christians indeed checked verses used us incredibly perverse interpretations others simply address issues would seem need careful spirit led course exegesis gay christians know suggest stop proof things know nothing michael l siemon say gods , sons mls panix com high , nevertheless shall die like men , fall mls ulysses att com like prince psalm 82 6 7
leland stanford edu \( david shao \) subject divorce organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa lines 72 deleted much following article order discuss specific issue whether acceptable divorce article may 7 01 10 03 1993 athos rutgers edu crs carson u washington edu \( cliff slaughterbeck \) writes along way , married , happily , wonderful supportive husband gave birth two sons still , everything perfect jane , since could never open deepest part soul husband always found could much closer women friends husband , good husband might struggled much age 38 , decided lesbian came home announce understanding , husband told come understanding several years waiting come realization time children ages 9 11 time also extremely supportive youngest put , means love people much jane husband agreed divorce remain friends still consider part extended family day one interesting things jane said whole discussion homosexuality goes bedroom found much able deep , committed relationship woman man sex , mind , part whole relationship key thing one people made specific point say never met good man , since married wonderful man dozen years \( take seconds honestly ponder thought 's implications ! ! ! \) thought implications , scary whole generation families broken men decided okay leave wives children thrill younger , attractive woman accept legitimate jane divorced , accept anyone 's decision divorce found someone deep , committed relationship marriage state , mutual journey life love passive feeling , must actively willed acceptable older executive dump wife many years stayed home care children ca n't happy sexually unless beautiful young blonde \? real solution couple make renewed effort hold fast faith lord repeatedly compared relation people faithful enduring husband \? learn something deep mystical marry remain faithful times trial spouse brain tumor left partially paralyzed resume growing \( remission , thanks god ! \) perhaps time would come could sexual relations 's life lord would certainly give permission seek someone else satisfy needs idea alright divorce couple grows apart seems lead monstrous destruction meaning marriage feel must make every effort avoid hint compromise become petty small minded husbands threatening divorce wives unless wives lose weight ! praise lord guiding marry wife married anyway despite possibility could terrible illness turned one brain tumor , known would n't cared either maybe 'll car accident tomorrow become paralyzed neck married couple deal situations help lord , divorce run away
athena mit edu \( alfred eaton \) subject mormon temples organization massachusetts institute technology lines 16 wondering anyone knew changes temple ceremony within last fifty years also , think made \( revelation , assimilation mainstream christianity , etc \) \? know god makers published quite ago could rituals changed since \? also interested influence freemasonry early mormonism , especially smith family settlement info new studies would appreciated thanks , freddie eaton athena mit edu
muirm argon gas organpipe uug arizona edu \( maxwell c muir \) subject homosexuality issues christianity organization university arizona , tucson lines 75 someone cite biblical references homosexuality immoral , leviticus \? far , ask , around , get verses leviticus spouted , whole rest book tends ignored christians \( n't seen long time \) later , max \( bob \) muir list posted long ago , recall , aside lev , commonly cited passages story sodom note however homosexual rape , 's disagreement wrong take intermediate position note sodom referred elsewhere bible sinfulness n't seem known specifically homosexuality rather , think considered sins however know jewish attitudes , homosexuality would contributed horror action described \( almost seems contrived combine many forms evil one act possible homosexual rape guests , actually angels \) story specifically homosexuality nt , clear references paul 's letters rom 1 , passage presupposes homosexuality evil note passage n't homosexuality 's idolatry homosexuality visited people punishment , least result , idolatry number arguments passage use word homosexuality , referring people nature heterosexual practicing homosexuality 's 'd call explicit teaching homosexuality seem support would natural assumption anyway , paul shares general negative jewish attitude towards homosexuality passages occur lists sins , cor 6 9 , tim 1 10 unfortunately 's entirely clear words used mean suggestions one broader meaning , , another may specifically male prostitute , n't precise teaching homosexuality , least weak supportive evidence paul shared ot 's negative judgement homosexuality jude 1 7 sometimes cited , however 's probably relevant context jude involves angels since almost raped sodom angels , seems likely strange flesh refers intercourse angels see , nt evidence people 's conclusion determined approach bible conservatives note passages paul 's letters imply accepted ot prohibition enough regard nt endorsement liberals note 's specific teaching , clear definition prohibited \( concern rom 1 connection homosexuality pagan worship \? exactly words lists sins mean \? \) thus believe legitimate regard attitude paul took background specific teaching gospel explosive topic , tends result long exact meaning various greek words 's clear 's mostly irrelevant really comes whether people looking bible law whether believe approach inconsistent gospel appears depend upon one 's reaction message bible whole , well one 's perception needs church today difference approach least serious difference protestant catholic 16th cent , one sides believe bible obviously side keep thinking quote passages side finally come senses makes things frustrating moderator , realizes optimistic outcome likely clh
jek cu nih gov subject god , morality , massacres lines 258 \( andrew , think \) wrote , response suggestion genocide may sometimes god god works way evil , unworthy worship faith replied \( , substance , others \) source moral standards judge god 's behavior \? often argued standing judge god 's actions clay talk back potter \? find contrary view scripture god proposes destroy city sodom \( genesis 18 \) , abraham says suppose good men city destroy righteous along wicked \? far , lord , thing ! shall judge earth right \? told hebrew actually bit stronger , perhaps better rendered \( dynamic equivalence \) shame , lord , thing ! say definition good whatever god happens want , statement god good meaning simply says god wants case , one either love obey god good motive left obeying powerful makes sense obey dictator , even tells round jews exterminate , defy might end gas chamber , makes sense obey god , power punish n't ethical theory take radical contradiction genesis 18 christianity general theory makes moral judgements worthless makes discussion morality \( goodness god \) meaningless however , follow moral judgements always infallible particular cases , still less judgements particular cases course action likely achieve good result read scriptural accounts actions god history , actions often seem different might expect god loves us desires best us moreover , leaving scriptures aside , considering natural world , find nature often different might expect work benevolent deity \( origen said believe author nature also author scriptures must expect find scriptures sort difficulties find nature \) , difficulties exist argument existence , power , wisdom , goodness god contrary , absence would argument suppose watching bobby fisher play chess , suppose every time makes move , find saying good move ! expecting move would made playing would sign fisher better chess player given better , expect least moves thinking , , suppose induced \? even , boy , real slip 's thrown game away ! similarly , god understands workings universe better , expected sometimes look made mistake one difference fisher chessboard god controls universe see end chess game fisher wins , revise earlier inference made lose queen 23 moves earlier however , loses , particularly see time opportunity two moves take , know good player thought god , hand , shall life see total result actions therefore , grounds judging seen bad move part must always far grounds making similar judgement fisher book genesis , read joseph 's ten older brothers , \( good reason \) found , sell slavery egypt eventually became , famine canaan , able provide family brothers apologized , told worry meant evil , god turned good heard rabbi speak text said history jews largely history events look like threaten continued survival religion , people , , amazingly , events turn saving jews judaism sale joseph brothers looked like breakup family fact , ended reconciliation quarrel famine drove family canaan looked like misfortune fact , stayed canaan , would almost certainly canaanites assimilated culture oppression egyptians generations arrival egypt looked like disaster god used bring egypt , promised land people built temple , regularly offered sacrifices captured jerusalem judea , destroyed temple city countryside , deported people babylon might thought would end people religion living canaan , people constant danger assimilation , turned worship lord worship fertility cults , ritual prostitution ritual human sacrifice babylonian captivity put stop never jews show interest idolatry neither worship canaanites mor ever among judaism danger becoming simply system sacrifices temple prescribed acts worship consisted coming jerusalem every often offering sacrifice captivity , temple gone , jews invented synagogue , place meeting reading study discussion scriptures came realize clearly , danger forgetting continued live judea , god simply local tribal deity , controller land canaan , patron jewish people , creator world , ruler judge humans everywhere time passed , babylonian empire replaced persians , greeks , rather macedonians ruler , antiochus , determined stamp judaism , end made reading study torah punishable death , one might think would end judaism people met worship , instead reading torah portion appointed day , would read passage prophets similar theme , discuss time , torah , called five books moses \( genesis , exodus , leviticus , numbers , deuteronomy \) books read studied synagogue antiochus , books prophets would probably forgotten altogether hatred judaism saved examples omitted brevity 's sake may remember julie andrews first became famous eliza doolittle stage production fair lady warner brothers undertook make movie , everyone expected julie , stage , would play role movie instead , studio decided go established screen star , cast hepburn julie andrews naturally crushed later realized played screen role , would type cast life doolittle type would disaster , walt disney offered role mary , oscar presentation , stood , smiling , looking walt disney , said , , special thanks man made possible jack warner ! memorable line evening similar spirit , jews might thank men providence god preserved judaism , kept alive day , beginning joseph 's brothers , continuing two , nebuchadnezzar , antiochus formal meeting broken , one woman came privately said , talking holocaust , n't \? answered , example came mind , right , talking would talk everyone , everyone bear assume meant , without holocaust , would state israel someone hearing rabbi 's lecture might leap conclusion god dependent wickedness men accomplish purposes least rabbi thought might go suppose wickedness fact god 's stirred joseph 's brothers murderous hate , israelites egypt , god hardened pharaoh 's heart , oppressed people , would let go raises questions action considered wicked time considered something god brought suggest another way looking consider sculptor log wood proposes carve statue log , instead smooth even grain throughout , large knot appearance surface sculptor considers wood , statue features knot , makes particular interruption grain color wood correspond feature statue , observers say fortunate sculptor finding piece wood knot like right place presence touch , thing makes statue great work art reality , knot , far sculptor looking , challenge skill wood contained flaw , would still made great work art , different one , joseph 's brothers sold , god would still brought purposes jewish people , would done another manner judas betrayed jesus , fellow leaders rejected jesus , rather acknowledged annointed god , pilate followed conscience rather fears set jesus free , might appear would crucifixion , therefore redemption , therefore salvation god need judas' sin redeem us judas done right , god christ would still reconciled world know , know would painted chapel interior instead shaped like grand central station , know bobby fisher would fourth game refused exchange bishops attacked fisher 's knight instead \( n't bother look game question making example , point none less valid \) thus , may say \( 1 \) god used , say , cowardice pilate accomplish purposes , \( 2 \) said cowardice god 's , pilate would thwarted god 's plans behaving justly , , make place god says moses , harden pharaoh 's heart , let people go \? christians taken mean pharaoh puppet god pulling strings , cruelty work , work god suppose rather god telling moses something like see pharaoh willing let people go , discouraged , suppose situation control purposes thwarted pharaoh chooses hear let people go , well good , fit resistance plans , fit perfectly future historians theologians suppose would thrown loss pharaoh obeyed return question started possible serbs , slaughtering moslems bosnia , instruments god 's \? first point wrong , joseph 's brothers wrong , judas wrong intend evil god somehow brings good , make less subject condemnation punishment second point course , god bring good good would brought serbians refrained sins robbery rape murder good purposes excuse us duty right , james kiefer
tas pegasus com \( len howard \) subject question agnostic organization pegasus , honolulu lines 18 hi damon , matter system explanation creation wish accept , always start one two premises , creation nothing , creation something alternatives accept one two premises , two alternatives , either creation random , according plan random , unable accept complex nature world organisms creatures could exist therefore left creation control intelligence capable devising scheme call intelligence god also prefer ex rather chaos , cleaner obviously way prove either neither must come somewhere choose whatever explanation feel comfortable , damon one live choice shalom , len howard
tedr athena cs uga edu \( ted kalivoda \) subject christianity repeated lives organization university georgia , athens lines 20 article may 7 01 09 36 1993 athos rutgers edu danc procom com \( daniel cossack \) writes jek cu nih gov writes apostle paul \( romans 9 11 \) points god chose jacob rather esau admit possibility lived previous lives , \( accordance idea karma \) following romans 9 13 , written , jacob loved , esau hated could god loved hated \( past tense \) yet born , neither done good evil \? context god 's calling special people \( jews \) carry promise read meaning literal people miss paul 's entire point 'd glad send anyone detailed explanations passage interested ted kalivoda \( tedr athena cs uga edu \) university georgia , athens institute higher ed
db7n andrew cmu edu \( andrew byler \) subject deuterocanonicals , esp sirach organization freshman , civil engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 132 dave davis writes let state point possible \) going several study bibles , i'm leaning heavily towards assertion sirach \( 'the wisdom ben \) directly referenced james fact , think sirach directly referenced james job ruth referenced nt verse 've seen good point new testament quote ezra , nehemiah , esther , ruth , job , ecclesiastes , song songs , quote deuterocanon non quotation former , neither non quotation later solomon quite clearly influence st paul , especially letter romans \( cf especially romans 1 18 32 wisdom 13 14 \) stuff deleted think everyone would agree principles cannot consistently applied useful principles , exclude \( accord authority scripture \) would appear require reasons might reasons \? tradition \( always fav \) \? tradition subject sirach , believe , vaticanus n't know listed canon \( oldest list know \) sirach \( others \) discussed fathers , scripture , unanimously true accepted scripture , though niether books new testament accepted , puts lie whole argument books excluded debated universally accepted hebrews , apocalypse , 2 peter , esther , others debated various times , eventually retained mention , vaticanus include deuterocanon , new old , vaticanus \( think \) 1 clement , shepard , canon , deals new testament , though valuable witness books interim conclusion protestant exclusion \( least one \) writings one one hears often excluded reformation , appears reason many people continue exclude takers \? reasonable \( else fails \) show i'm wrong 're wrong ! , explain nothing read church divine scripture , except canonical scriptures , scriptures genesis , exodus , leviticus , numbers , deuteronomy , joshua , judges , ruth , four books kingdoms 1 2 samuel 1 2 kings , two books 1 2 chronicles , job , david , five books solomon proverbs , ecclesiastes , song songs , wisdom solomon , wisdom jesus son sirach , books twelve \( minor \) prophets , isaiah , jeremiah jeremiah , lamentations , baruch , letter , formerly counted one , ezekiel , daniel , tobit , judith , esther , two books ezra ezra nehemiah , two books maccabees new testament four books gospel , one book acts apostles , thirteen letters paul apostle , one letter hebrews , two peter apostle , three john , one apostle jude , one apostle james , one book apocalypse john council hippo , statute 36 , \( 393 ad \) list third council carthage \( 397 ad \) , sixth council carthage \( 419 ad \) council list enumerated words recieved fathers books read church ought quiet assert name holy scripture understand books whose authority never doubt church , episcopal church removing deuterocanon realm scripture \( though episcopalians hold high regard read church , counted scripture , may used prove dogma lutherans hold similarly \) earlier mention called apocrypha divine scripture also found , portion quotes calling divine scripture could found among writings fathers reason law old testament reckoned consisting twenty two books may correspond number letters hebrew alphabet noted also adding tobias judith , twenty four books , corresponding number letters used greeks st hillary , commentaries psalms , , 15 \( 365 ad \) twenty two books according hebrews jeremiah , lamentations letter , reckoned one also maccabees origen , commentaries psalms , psalm 1 \( 245 ad \) divine scripture , addressing love says excellently baruch 3 16 19 follows st clement alexandria , children , 2 , 3 , 36 , 3 , \( 203 ad \) learned accurately books old testament proverbs solomon , also wisdom st , fragment found history church , dating 177 ad , book 4 , 26 , 14 likewise decreed , indeed , must treat divine scriptures universal catholic church accepts must shun list old testament wisdom , one book , one book tobit , one book judith , one book maccabees , two books st , pope , decree damsus , section 2 \( 382 ad \) would think enough , though shown , church always accepted deutero canon , though parts disputed various persons disputes involving new testament deutero canon books \( e hebrews , james , 2 peter , 2 3 john , jude , revelation \) protestant eyes , neither old testament books must point jews drew canon 90 ad , 60 years founding christian religion upon cross adhere canon drawn , reaction use greek septuagint , includes deutero canon \? early 150 ad , st justin already accused jews canon scripture removal certain books protestants apparently prefer think god 's revelation limited decree jews ordering \( \) canon , could use people , like apostles , drawing canon apostles certain users septuagint , 80 old testament quotes use wording septuagint , hebrew septuagint includes deuterocanon
mdw33310 uxa cso uiuc edu \( michael walker \) subject deuterocanonicals , esp sirach organization university illinois urbana lines 26 wagner grace math uh edu \( david wagner \) writes deutero canonical books added much later church 's history spiritual quality rest scripture believe church added books guided spirit sort discussion ultimately ends david h wagner confessional lutheran thank god ! ! ! \? ! \? last paragraph killed deuterocanonicals always accepted inspired scripture catholic church , existed much longer protestant church martin luther began hacking bible deciding remove certain books fact catholic church decided add much later reason difference catholic protestant bibles sorry tone comment really mike walker mdw33310 uxa cso uiuc edu \( univ illinois \)
noring netcom com \( jon noring \) subject christians fight \? justifiable war organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 35 article gideon otago ac nz \( gideon king \) writes posted couple weeks ago , n't seem appeared newsgroup , n't reply moderator intermittent problems mail time please excuse seen christians fight \? last week alastair posted questions fighting , whether things justifiable wars started looking things findings go n't answered questions yet , know slightly different tack , possibly 'll able get deeply later , post info soon may suggest book ethics dr norm , dallas theological seminary , goes arguments pro con , comes reasonable answer time , enough interest , may post position jon noring charter member infj club 're dying know infj means , brave , e mail , 'll send info jon noring noring netcom com jkn international ip 192 100 81 100 fred's gourmet chocolate 1312 carlton place phone \( 510 \) 294 8153 chips world 's best ! livermore , ca 94550 v mail \( 510 \) 417 4101 \? read alt psychology personality ! 's action
db7n andrew cmu edu \( andrew byler \) subject ot valid \? \? \? \? organization freshman , civil engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 31 yuan yeh asks wonder ot exactly like jewish history part \? torah \? first five books ot torah \? \? \? \? \? yes , yes , yes jewish history recorded old testament shown archaeology kings , , temples , torah , far know , five books moses come prophets \( prophets , plus joshua , judges , 1 2 samuel , 1 2 kings \) writings \( psalms , proverbs , lamentations , ruth , esther , ezra , nehemiah , , song songs , 1 2 chronicles , job \) veracity isaiah , quoted moslem friend quite well known complete manuscript exists dates back past 200 bc , kept museum israel found among dead sea scrolls , greatly enhanced knowledge veracity old testament , date back around time christ , whereas , oldest complete manuscript hebrew around 900 ad moslem friend sorely mistaken , understandably jesus crucified , atoned sins , must god , death god could atone sins humanity isaiah predicts , messiah called mighty god god , must rose , st paul wrote , possible death could hold jesus rose dead , moslem friend would little reason moslem denies authenticity old testament andy byler
db7n andrew cmu edu \( andrew byler \) subject revelations babylon \? organization freshman , civil engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 38 rex \( rexlex fnal fnal gov \) writes also interest note , occasion jubilee , pope leo 12th cast image one side side , church rome symbolized woman , holding left hand cross , right cup legend around , super , 'the whole world seat read medal worth woman church catholics always called church holy mother church mother example would st carthage , wrote 251 ad , anyone god father , church mother \? hence image church woman , holding cross cup , tell lord , power blood \( grail legend , also , significantly , shows cup new covenant blood , shall shed many \( luke 22 20 \) , cup represents new covenant holds blood redemption \) fact woman holding said whole world seat , catholic church catholic , universal , found throughout world , church shows applies blood redemption mankind spread , holy sacrafice mass , said celebrated nations malachi predicted malachi 1 11 , rising sun setting , name great among gentiles , everywhere sacrafice , offered name clean , name great among gentiles , says lord hosts acknowledge st paul wrote often eat bread drink cup , show lord 's death comes \( 1 corinthians 11 26 \) quite right identification babylon great , mother rome think simply disagree time period rome apostle john talking andy byler
db7n andrew cmu edu \( andrew byler \) subject revelations babylon \? organization freshman , civil engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 27 hal heydt writes fall western empire eastern empire continued another 1000 years key element 's fall christian sack constantinople note said fall rome , empire roman empire lasted 1453 , transfered capital constantinople main reason 's fall much sack constantinople men 4th crusade \( christians excommunicated last man attacking christian city croatia \) , rather defeat battle turks breached frontier , matter time empire fell , inability empire hold onto rim anatolia , ottomans rum middle quite obvious student history sack constantinople inevitable along greeks wanted save empire , would cooperate came battle 1st 3rd crusades \? obstinacy cooperating people considered heretics , even though heretics fighting cause empire christendom battle turkish anatolia , , lebanon , , syria , later sack constantinople , overrun third europe \( balkans , hungary , ukraine , caucasus , etc \) andy byler
mcovingt aisun3 ai uga edu \( michael covington \) subject translations organization ai programs , university georgia , athens lines 25 article may 9 05 41 02 1993 athos rutgers edu ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) writes version bible consider accurate translation \? well , knowing greek hebrew , i'm probably picky translations would english translations source information \( 1 \) verse comes substantially different different trans almost certainly unclear original \( 2 \) bad practice shop translation fits doctrinal positions personally , still like rsv nrsv also good strong preference editions indent beginning verse verses paragraphs verse numbering relatively modern addition given undue prominence michael covington , associate research scientist artificial intelligence programs mcovingt ai uga edu university georgia phone 706 542 0358 athens , georgia 30602 7415 u amateur radio n4tmi
wkuvx1 bitnet subject doctrine original sin organization western kentucky university , bowling green , ky lines 27 , n't sinned , come short glory god \( romans 3 23 \) \? cite scripture claim even babes require baptism neglect sin imputed law \( romans 5 13 \) therefore , someone capable comprehending god 's laws accountable living book life removed make conscious decision disobey god idler babies supposed baptised n't bible ever say never comes right says people know right wrong taught baptised christ say assure , one enter god 's kingdom without born water spirit surprised tell must begotten could everyone born original sin \? mike
db7n andrew cmu edu \( andrew byler \) subject monophysites mike walker organization freshman , civil engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 20 nabil ayoub writes final note , oriental orthodox eastren orthodox sign common statement christology , monophysitism condemned coptic orthodox church believe monophysitism sorry ! coptic church believe energy christ \? one two \( e human divine \) wills energies also , objection ot copts pope rome \( e coptic catholic church \) \? reject supreme jurisdiction st peter \( blessed st john mark , bishop alexandria translator \) predecessors \? infallibility \? things perhaps \? andy byler
db7n andrew cmu edu \( andrew byler \) subject serbian genocide work god \? organization freshman , civil engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 61 vera shanti noyes writes indicates may believe predestination correct \? believe predestination believe choose whether accept god 's gift salvation us , fundamental difference ca n't really resolved course believe predestination 's biblical doctrine romans 8 28 30 shows \( among passages \) furthermore , church always taught predestination , beginning say believe predestination mean believe free men freely choose course life , also affected grace god however , unlike , hold grace , otherwise end idiocy denying universal saving god \( 1 timothy 2 4 \) god must give enough grace saved elect , , predestined receive grace final , guarantees heaven mean without grace ca n't saved , means god obstinacy chose give , knowing would need , freely chosen hell people saved saved grace god , effort , god disposed , predestined become saints perish everlasting fire perish hardened heart chose perish thus , deserving god punishment , rejected creator , sinned working holy spirit yes , god judge mete punishment last judgement well , would hold god certainly gives everybody blessing good done \( even little \) , ca n't bless next life , blesses one punish next life , chastised one purgatory sins every sin temporal punishment , thus , god punish unless satisfaction made \( cf 2 samuel 12 13 14 , david 's sin adultery murder forgiven , still punished death child \) need point idea punishment god 's judgement quite bible sodom , moses barred holy land , slaughter cannanites , , jerusalem 70 ad , etc jesus stopped stoning woman \( perhaps good parallel , i'm going go anyway \) , stop murder violation people may \( may \) innocent \? stop slaughter innocent \( cf proverbs 24 11 12 \) , mean christians support war bosnia u even u n involved \? think , , disagree foreign adventures general case bosnia , frankly see excuse us getting militarily involved , would war blessed , peacemakers lord said , actions bosnia must peace , war unrelated anything justify us andy byler
db7n andrew cmu edu \( andrew byler \) subject doctrine original sin organization freshman , civil engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 22 eugene bigelow writes n't bible say god fair god sic \? true , possibly fair infants \? mean fair \? god , giving everyone deserve infants sin time conception \( cf romans 5 12 , psalm 1 7 \) , cannot possibly merit heaven , purgatory purging temporal punishment sins , impossible sin forgiven hence , infants cut god , whole human race except mary , sinned jesus said , truly , truly say , one enter kingdom god unless born water spirit true meaning born \( john 3 5 \) thus , infants sin , fair cut god heaven st augustine said , invent original sin , catholic faith holds ancient time , deny , without doubt follower new heresy \( de , lib 11 c 12 \) andy byler
allegra att com \( dan \) subject obvious n't politically correct organization bell laboratories , murray hill , nj lines 5 last state church massachusetts sam adams , patriot , tenure governor revolutionary war got passed believe eliminated around 1820 dan
manes magpie linknet com \( steve manes \) subject gun control \( 're mad hell tv news \) organization manes associates , nyc distribution na x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 38 hambidge bms com wrote article c6 magpie linknet com , manes magpie linknet com \( steve manes \) writes rate per capita rate uk dangerous though may less likely killed handgun , average individual citizen uk twice likely killed whatever means average swiss would feel better killed means handgun \? would n't absurd argument switzerland one fifth size uk one eigth many people therefore given point swiss soil likely crow bait importantly , 4x likely killed next stranger approaching swiss street uk betraying lack understanding rate versus total number rates expressed , often , 100 , 000 population therefore , place 10 deaths population 100 , 000 , rate would 10 100 , 000 place 50 deaths population 1 , 000 , 000 would hav rate 5 100 , 000 former higher rate , latter higher total less likely die latter simple enuff \? chrissakes , take calculator work numbers 've preformatted make easier handgun homicides population switzerland 24 6 , 350 , 000 uk 8 55 , 670 , 000 tell switzerland safer liberal handgun law uk without rate total number choice stephen manes manes magpie linknet com manes associates new york , ny , usa
manes magpie linknet com \( steve manes \) subject gun control \( 're mad hell tv news \) organization manes associates , nyc x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 168 jim de arras \( jmd cube handheld com \) wrote last year us suffered almost 10 , 000 wrongful accidental deaths handguns alone \( fbi statistics \) year , uk suffered 35 deaths \( scotland yard statistics \) population uk 1 5 us \( 10 , 000 \( 35 5 \) \) weighted population , us 57x many handgun related deaths uk , , brits n't make murdering 57x many people baseball bats ca n't compare way ! homicides must shown , per capita , handguns availability usa makes preferred murder weapon , ban , weapon step favorite favorite , sure lethal , likely study violence chicago produced table percentage reported gun knife attacks resulting death weapon deaths percentage attacks knives \( 16 , 518 total attacks \) 2 4 guns \( 6 , 350 total attacks \) 12 2 source firearms violence american life might gun murderers deprived guns would find way kill often knives , knife attacks cities guns widely used homicide would expected show low rate , knife attacks cities guns widely used \( like vancouver \) would show higher rate nat'l commission causes prevention violence task force analyzed data found case appeared number knife attacks increased relation number firearms attacks \( presumably happened guns less available assailants \) , proportion fatal knife attacks increase relative proportion gun attacks fact , reverse true found homicides show determination part assailant kill fatalities caused knife tended show single mindedness part assailant grave physical injury multiple wounds , wounds concentrated head neck chest , etc gun homicides show pattern rather , fatal attacks committed moment rage focused intent kill victim source report firearms violence , since england ! usa \( ancestors left oppression \) must compare england strict gun laws england strict gun laws able draw meaning england essentially legalized drugs , drug gangs battling turf , etc , drop drug related killings , usa would look whole lot peaceful lot factors make difference actually , i'm fond making kind social parallels europeans americans cultural , economic differences us similarities sort found backed corner last couple weeks n't think could ever attain low levels european violent crime us , whether banned guns required every law abiding citizen carry loaded uzi hand , draw lessons neighbors culturally similar , namely canadians fact , exhaustive , seven year study already done respective crime rates vancouver , british columbia seattle , washington cities roughly population , urban economy , geography crime decidedly different approaches gun control seattle , handguns may purchased legally self defense 30 day waiting period , permit obtained carry concealed weapon recreational use handguns minimally restricted vancouver , self defense considered valid legal reason purchase handgun concealed weapons permitted recreational uses handguns \( target shooting , collecting \) regulated province purchase handgun requires restricted weapons permit permit carry may obtained order transport weapon licensed shooting clubs handguns transported vehicle must stored trunk locked box short , gun control unreasonably cities aggressively enforce gun laws convictions gun related offenses carry similar penalties researchers studied cases robbery , assault \( simple aggravated \) , homicides occurring seattle vancouver 1 1 80 12 31 86 defining cases , used standard fbi 's unified crime report results seven year study annual rate robbery seattle found slightly higher vancouver \( 1 09 1 11 \) occurred nearly identical rates \( 99 \) 18 , 925 assaults recorded seattle versus 12 , 034 vancouver risk victim simple assault seattle found slightly higher vancouver \( 1 18 1 15 \) risk aggravated assault also slightly higher \( 1 16 1 12 \) however , aggravated assaults weapon mechanism assault , clear pattern emerged although cities reported nearly identical rates aggravated assault involving knives dangerous weapons , firearms far likely used seattle fact , 7 7 times often seven year study , 388 homicides occurred seattle \( 11 3 per 100 , 000 \) vs 204 homicides vancouver \( 6 9 per 100 , 000 \) adjustment differences age sex among populations , relative risk victim homicide seattle , compared vancouver , found 1 63 homicides mechanism death , rate homicide knives weapons \( excluding firearms \) seattle found almost identical vancouver virtually increased risk death seattle due higher rate homicide firearms handguns accounted roughly 85 homicides involving firearms handguns 4 8 times likely used homicides seattle vancouver authors report also investigated legally justifiable homicides \( self defense \) 32 homicides occurred seven year study , 11 committed police 21 cases civilians acting self defense 17 seattle 4 vancouver 13 involved firearms excluding cases , virtually impact earlier findings , feel , fair report one might even make argument biased canada whole vancouver reports annual rates homicide two three times ottawa , calgary toronto seattle reports annual homicide rates half two thirds nyc , chicago , los angeles houston critics handgun control always argue limited legal access handguns little effect rates homicide persons intent killing others try harder acquire gun kill means report shows differently rate homicide community influenced strength intent availability weapons , could expect rate homicides weapons guns higher vancouver seattle however , study interval , vancouver 's rate homicide weapons guns significantly higher seattle , suggesting would assailants switched homicide methods well , ready access handguns self defense law abiding citizens endorsed report although seattle experience higher rate firearm death self defense , cases accounted less 4 homicides cities course study period , reported , seattle apparently n't enjoy relief crime category vancouver citizens may legally arm self defense heavily quoted source handgun regulation , crime , assaults , homicide tale two cities john h sloan , arthur l , donald , james ferris , thomas , frederick p rivara , charles rice , laurel gray james stephen manes manes magpie linknet com manes associates new york , ny , usa
manes magpie linknet com \( steve manes \) subject gun control \( 're mad hell tv news \) organization manes associates , nyc distribution na x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 39 steve kao \( k hprnd rose hp com \) wrote frank crary posted sure , difference per capita crime rates predates gun control laws homicide rate england tenth america , back anyone england could buy gun without paperwork steve manes asks got citation \? colin scotland yard study showed gun control effect crime murder rates uk book , firearms controls , published london keegan paul \( name may \) others dispute , like richard , america gun culture , newton 's firearms violence american life , , statistics dissimilar cultures difficult quantify n't know anyone state gun control could effect homicide rates 250 accidental handgun homicides america 1990 , licensed weapons american children accidentally shot children last year \( 15 \) handgun homicides great britain \( source national safety council please dictionary arguments rates vs total numbers , okay \? 're offered emphasis , comparison \) mr believes brits much sober coordinated make mistakes 'd like introduce friend , amanda brighton used pretty nice crystal place moved 've gotten used snide comments guests clown motif rubber wine glasses stephen manes manes magpie linknet com manes associates new york , ny , usa
rats cbnewsc cb att com \( morris cat \) subject vancouver seattle study critiques organization distribution usa lines 360 open letter dr paul h blackman , research coordinator nra ila nra official journal 1 89 dear sir , used new england journal medicine 's publication small scale studies related firearms conclusions drawn quantum data , followed announcements scientific findings regularly released press without caveats riddle paragraphs , often accompanied editorial calling attention findings generally , least present interesting data , however meaningless , studies statistics , ignore belittle serious studies latest effort handgun regulations , crime , assaults , homicide tale two cities , j h sloan , et al , accompanying editorial , firearms injuries call science , two employees centers disease control \( november 10 \) , however , insult intelligence serious scholar field data many flaws feel compelled write length call attention various major minor , particular order 1 authors cite wright , et al \( ref 1 \) support statement argued restricting access handguns could substantially reduce annual rate homicide wright , et al , fact studied rejected contention 2 authors pretended vancouver seattle similar cities similar economic circumstances , histories , demographic characteristics , like fact , cities different different demographic characteristics appear explain completely higher homicide rate seattle cities three non hispanic white non hispanic white homicide rates reported seattle vancouver different back grounds , problems , circumstances , behaviors various ethnic minorities explain difference homicide 3 authors pretend evaluating canada 's gun law , compared washington state 's examine situation vancouver prior gun law taking effect 1978 happens , three years prior \( 1975 1977 \) , vancouver averaged 23 homicides per year , one eighth involving handguns , \( ref 2 \) seven years nejm article 29 homicides per year , one eigth involving handguns surely even medical profession recognizes one must look see prior situation concluding change made difference \? would physician conclude patient eating day seven years cholesterol level 200 without least seeing 180 started regimen \? 4 authors pick two medium sized cities evaluate national gun law nothing learned tiny arbitrarily selected sample seattle appears selected authors rather scientific reason would physicians call something scientific study involved one experimental subject one dissimilar control \? different arbitrarily selected cities chosen , opposite scientific conclusions would follow vancouver 's homicide rate exceeds wild west cities texas el paso , corpus christi , , , colorado , colorado springs \( ref 3 \) 5 authors fail clearly demonstrate firearms handguns far commonly owned seattle vancouver use two surrogate approaches pretending study availability firearms handguns first apples oranges effort compare number carry permits seattle number registered handguns vancouver number clearly number handguns seattle , counts primarily protective handgun owners second , however , tells nothing number handguns vancouver , counts non protective handguns part difficult obtain handguns legally protection , registration figures meaningless 66 , 000 registered handguns new york city \( new york daily news , sept 27 , 1987 \) comparing two , method suggests 930 handguns per 100 , 000 population new york city compared 960 vancouver , meaning vancouver greater prevalence weapons new york city second method measuring gun density cook 's gun prevalence index , previously validated measure differences validation cook theory \( ref 4 \) normally , second opinions sought different doctor significantly , cook index based average percentage firearms involvement suicide homicide authors basically taking measure misuse , gun misuse homicide \( 42 seattle , 14 vancouver \) related gun misuse homicide plus suicide , divided two \( 41 seattle , 12 vancouver \) authors measuring relative avail ability firearms , handguns , seattle vancouver 6 authors laws washington canada neglect mention significant fact washington waiting period background check prior purchase handgun , provisions exist canadian law owning carrying handguns personal protection authors also make appear difficult get handgun legally canada actually case 7 authors ignore factors might explain differences crime rate , beyond vague mention provided law estimates one particular offense homicide involving firearm measure differences number law enforcement officers making arrests gun law violations two jurisdictions arrest rates offenses conviction rates actual sentences imposed gun related crimes , violent crimes without guns , gun law violations incarceration rates whereas social scientists would attempt measure hold differences , authors nejm tale two cities fail even mention factors related crime control 8 authors dismiss claims handguns effective means protection unless criminal killed case \( ref 5 8 \) found almost 650 , 000 americans annually use handguns protection criminals , using gun protection reduces crime rape , robbery , assault completed criminal reduces likelihood injury victim interesting , nonetheless , authors reported number \( four \) civilian justifiable homicides without firearms city less restrictive seattle accounted 100 reported civilian justifiable homicides involving firearms 9 centers disease control , funded study , praised paper , \( ref 9 \) saying applied scientific methods examine focus contention advocates stricter regulation firearms , particularly handguns nothing paper could possibly mistaken scientific methods vancouver seattle study testing experimental drug control hypertension finding two ordinary looking middle class white males , one aged 25 40 , without first taking vital signs , administering experimental drug 25 year old giving 40 year old placebo , taking blood pressure , finding younger man lower blood pressure , announcing special article new medical breakthrough would nice think study would neither funded cdc printed nejm since longstanding anti gun biases nejm cdc make willing present shoddy research scientific breakthroughs special articles editorials relating firearms , obligated correct record notifying news media congressional executive oversight activities centers disease control distortions contained handgun regulations , crime , assaults , homicides tale two cities firearm injuries call science clearly , scientific standards go whenever cdc new england journal medicine seize opportunity attack firearms ownership america references 1 wright jd , et al , weapons , crime violence america literature review research agenda , washington , c department justice , 1981 2 e evaluation canadian gun control legislation final report ottawa ministry general canada , 1983 , p 87 3 department justice , federal bureau investigation , crime united states , 1987 \( uniform crime reports \) washington , c government printing office , 1988 4 cook pj role firearms violent crime wolfgang na , eds criminal violence , beverly hills , calif sage , 1982 236 90 , pp 270 271 5 kleck g crime control private use armed force social problems 1988 35 1 21 6 ea , victim responses robbery crime control policy criminology 1985 23 675 695 7 aj rape assault journal quantitative criminology 1986 2 203 217 8 sl , kleck g rape resistance paper american society criminology convention , chicago , 1988 9 mercy ja , vn firearm injuries call science nejm 319 1285 guns sputter james wright \( july 1989 issue reason , free minds free markets \) someone wrote statistics like real suggestive , conceal vital problem demonstrated recent entry long line scientific research show causal link gun availability homicide funded federal government published last year new england journal medicine , study compared homicide rates seattle vancouver suggested handgun ban may reduce rate homicide community nine medical doctors published handgun regulations , crime , assaults , homicide essentially reasoned three steps \( 1 \) despite many historical , social , demographic similarities , \( 2 \) vancouver markedly lower homicide rate \( 3 \) stricter gun regulations make guns less available second step reasoning seems indisputable overall homicide rate seattle \( period 1980 86 \) 11 3 per 100 , 000 , compared 6 9 vancouver homicide definitely common seattle question becomes , \? authors present believable although entirely accurate case support notion , claimed third step reasoning , vancouver 's handgun regulations much stringent evidence difference gun indirect indeed , acknowledge direct evidence point exist offer two fragments data support claim guns available seattle anybody knows matter empirical fact , opposite could true therefore asked , conclusion study , believe difference gun availability explains difference homicide rates difference gun availability established indeed , situation even troublesome first two indirect bits evidence difference number concealed weapons permits issued seattle number restricted weapons permits issued vancouver differences two cities permit regulations render two numbers strictly second bit evidence cook 's gun prevalence index , stands 41 percent seattle 12 percent vancouver cook 's index however , measure relative prevalence gun ownership various cities measures gun misuse average percentage homicides suicides involving firearms present case , index shows homicides suicides , firearms likely used vancouver take cook 's index measure general firearms availability , must assumed proportional involvement guns homicides suicides directly related relative availability general population exactly authors seeking prove assume one seeking prove , prove basis assumption ot constitute scientific evidence anything even grant , basis compelling evidence , guns less common vancouver , might still question causes authors attribute seattle 's higher crime rate higher rate gun ownership might well argued low crime homicide rates reduce motivation average citizens obtain guns words , crime rates explain variation gun ownership , vice versa fact , commonly argued great britain 's low rate violent crime function nation 's strict gun laws consequent low rate gun ownership british researcher colin found great britain enjoyed low rates violent crime many decades strict firearms controls enacted invoke ancient methodological saw , correlation cause problems study end lack direct data gun ownership authors say seattle vancouver similar many ways , implying differ mainly gun availability , gun law , crime rates evident attempt establish condition sound scientific analysis else equal among things compared clearly two cities similar ways , closer look reveals differences ways relevant respective crime homicide rates cities closely matched percentage population white \( 79 percent 76 percent \) seattle 10 percent black , vancouver less 0 5 percent vancouver 's minority population overwhelmingly asian although authors show th two cities approximately comparable half dozen readily available demographic indicators , shown potentially relevant sources variation ruled fact , differences racial two cities particularly relevant light study 's breakdown homicide rates according race victim white majority , homicide rates nearly identical 6 2 per 100 , 000 seattle , 6 4 vancouver differing overall homicide rates two cities therefore due entirely vastly different rates among racial minorities blacks , observed difference homicide rate 36 6 9 5 hispanics 26 9 7 9 \( complexities render asian comparison problematic , higher seattle vancouver \) racial minorities much likely victims homicide seattle vancouver white majority equally likely slain either city since nearly 2 1 initial difference homicide cities due exclusively 3 1 4 1 differences minority groups , fair ask postulated difference gun availability \( gun law \) would matter dramatically minorities matter whites differential gun availability explain blacks hispanics whites much likely killed seattle vancouver \? \( studies united states , incidentally , show large consistent racial differences gun ownership \) explanations plausible \? could canadian american rates poverty among racial minorities anything \? relative rates drug alcohol abuse \? among cty 's minority population \? \( city seattle runs largest shelter homeless men west mississippi \) unemployment among young , central city , men united states usually exceeds 40 percent comparable canadian percentage \? crucial point canada united states differ many ways , cities population two countries absent detailed analysis , nearly many ways might explain part difference homicide rates gross comparisons seattle vancouver , else equal authors study acknowledge racial patterns homicide result complex picture acknowledge ensuing complexities seriously main thrust argument also acknowledge socio economic status probably important confounding factor comparison , blacks vancouver slightly higher mean income 1981 rest vancouver 's population given evidence presented article , possible difference homicide rates seattle vancouver results greater among seattle 's racial minorities authors pay attention possibility , since detailed information household incomes according race available vancouver largely methodological difficulties confronted gross comparative studies sort illustrated simple example one take u compare terms \( 1 \) gun ownership \( 2 \) crime homicide rates , one would find astonishing pattern counties guns less crime would one conclude evidence alone guns actually reduce crime \? would one insist variables also taken account \? example , hidden variable city size guns common small towns rural areas , whereas crime big city problem researchers failed anticipate variable , lacked appropriate data examine possible consequences , seriously misled study hand , authors matched two cities size minority poverty rates hidden variables , results impossible interpret editorial firearm injuries call science accompanying study , two officials centers disease control authors applying scientific methods problem grave public heath significance attempting draw causal conclusions research , essence scientific method anticipate plausible alternative explanations results try rule absent effort , results may well seem scientific little serious research study one number recent efforts employing practical identical research designs published leading scientific journals cause concern james wright professor sociology tulane university researched extensively relationship firearms crime reason published monthly except combined august september issue reason foundation , nonprofit , tax exempt organization subscription rate 24 00 per year reason foundation ocean park blvd suite 1062 santa monica , ca 90405
cower csli stanford edu \( richard cower \) subject waco dates coincidental \? organization csli , stanford university distribution usa lines 34 atf agent interviewed street stories reported raid ill planned , went ahead even \( bd 's \) knew atf coming \? believe raid ill planned 2 days plan , continued failure obvious bit part much larger political agenda president clinton would even suggest loss 4 atf agents inconsequential context political agenda might even beneficial agenda , helps point evil assualt weapons proof might atf denied agents \( street stories report \) requests sufficient fire power important dates feb 25th nj assembly votes overturn assault weapon ban feb 28th compound waco attacked feb 25th new jersey assembly voted overturn assault weapon ban state looked like might tight vote , senate n j going vote overturn ban would sit well eastern state overturn assault weapon ban , given clintons stated agenda gun control suspect clinton gave order get someone group assualt weapons press present \( initially incident waco \) record event tv audience agent street stories reported supervisor urging get ready fast , know coming believe attack continued , even tho failure high , came top n j assembly vote , atf limited amount time come something , wackos waco fit bill nicely rich
nagle netcom com \( john nagle \) subject gov't break ins \( 60 minutes \) organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 9 cleveland freenet edu \( pat weber \) writes ever notice people cases always described clever handles eccentric , religious wackos , gun nuts , cultists , , etc general public identify \? san jose mercury news described 61 year old retired chemical engineer john nagle
arc cco caltech edu \( aaron ray clements \) subject gun control \( 're mad hell tv news \) article gap distribution na organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 57 nntp posting host sandman caltech edu manes magpie linknet com \( steve manes \) writes hambidge bms com wrote article c6 magpie linknet com , manes magpie linknet com \( steve manes \) writes rate per capita rate uk dangerous though may less likely killed handgun , average individual citizen uk twice likely killed whatever means average swiss would feel better killed means handgun \? would n't absurd argument switzerland one fifth size uk one eigth many people therefore given point swiss soil likely crow bait importantly , 4x likely killed next stranger approaching swiss street uk killed handgun , killed \? i'm dead , n't much care shot stabbed death betraying lack understanding rate versus total number rates expressed , often , 100 , 000 population therefore , place 10 deaths population 100 , 000 , rate would 10 100 , 000 place 50 deaths population 1 , 000 , 000 would hav rate 5 100 , 000 former higher rate , latter higher total less likely die latter simple enuff \? chrissakes , take calculator work numbers 've preformatted make easier handgun homicides population switzerland 24 6 , 350 , 000 uk 8 55 , 670 , 000 tell switzerland safer liberal handgun law uk without rate total number choice stephen manes manes magpie linknet com manes associates new york , ny , usa n't think get accurate indicator safe england compared switzerland concentrating handgun murders completely ignoring murders weapons , mention rate violent crimes guns circulation , follows people killed 'cause available person intent committing crime regardless whether gun , knife , bare hands gun control lobby n't seem understand point people intent committing crime , whatever means available aaron arc cco caltech edu
nagle netcom com \( john nagle \) subject waco militia keywords salute organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) distribution usa lines 7 dumb move smart move would sneak someone tv camera video transmitter john nagle
schabel calspan com \( dave schabel \) subject gun nuts holly silva article calspan 1993apr5 4600 organization calspan advanced technology center lines 45 nntp posting host gw article news cso uiuc edu irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \( brent irvine \) writes article 1993apr1 mnemosyne cs du edu rcanders nyx cs du edu \( mr nice guy \) writes gun nuts gays aggressively defensive quite hostile one trying deprive rights like group trying protect rights fallacy whole thing rights posts say \? presume mean talking restricting rights restricting rights well , arguing restrictions may lead implementation , much way assault lead battery \( legal definitions \) p g people homosexual groups wo n't even discuss subject polite form mere raising question rights exactly 'right' encompasses bring shrill posts angry hostile traffic well , ca n't speak homosexuals , 've seen alot polite discussion p g please , everyone , n't take guy 's word , mine matter , read p g , try determine direction post without flamebait , generally receive reasoned responses true , tend lose tempers quickly , newsgroups , really feel rights jeopardy oh , neat trick talking another newsgroup crossposting allow defend think lot p g people thin skin comes discussing subjects methinks doth protest much dave schabel dave schabel opinions comments contained herein mine schabel calspan com necessarilly reflect calspan corp located western ny customers
arc cco caltech edu \( aaron ray clements \) subject aclu \( waco shootout \) organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 22 nntp posting host sandman caltech edu jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) writes article 1993mar31 news cs indiana edu paul hager hagerp cs indiana edu writes old post mine came collection posts aclu 's position gun control , would like note position evolving , i'm still sure answer question , 2nd allow nuclear device \? second amendment prohibit , probably argued way operate one without severely impacting safety rights others , might permitted basis existence weapon \( also true chemical weapons , slightly different reasons \) poses threat living critters say neutron radiation flux due radioactive decay , boys girls \? aaron arc cco caltech edu
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject important holly silva information organization stratus computer , inc lines 19 distribution usa nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article cae cad gatech edu , vincent cad gatech edu \( vincent fox \) writes separate post soc culture usa explicitly said cross posts p g sets follow ups , read talk politics guns think , 's clever way keeping respondents edit line , properly use follow heard also makes easier claim ever sees squeaky weasels want see analysis , e mail want point flaws public , make sure newsgroup line includes soc culture usa keep flooding c u , e mailed however , agree 's quite sneaky trick would expect , however cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
lwb cs utexas edu \( lance w bledsoe \) subject atf suspects drug lab compound organization cs dept , university texas austin lines 24 nntp posting host im4u cs utexas edu article mnemosyne cs du edu rcanders nyx cs du edu \( mr nice guy \) writes associated press news story 3 28 93 reports developments saturday , david troy , intelligence chief atf , confirmed reports authorities suspected cult lab said evidence possible drug activity surfaced late investigation cult 's gun dealings wow , scope mission atf continues expand besides alcohol , tobacco , firearms , seem child protective services , drug enforcement tax evasion look road nations boys blue ! knock one hand , 16 heil ! ! ! lance lance w bledsoe lwb im4u cs utexas edu \( 512 \) 258 0112 ye shall know truth , truth shall make free
lwb cs utexas edu \( lance w bledsoe \) subject threatening gun owners organization cs dept , university texas austin lines 47 nntp posting host im4u cs utexas edu article blue cis pitt edu cislabs pitt edu \( gary \) writes hello , i'm writing story future gun control points would welcome opinion 's wonderful resource like newsgroup take advantage thank advance feedback ! 1 believe serious threats gun owners future \? government liberals batf , fbi , dea , etc \( see 1 \) 2 concerned 2nd ammendment could apply armed forces , barring civilians owning arms kind \? well contributions taxes abortion elimination fetal tissue clinton president spouse could happen 3 control types arms people would allowed buy , types would feel compelled restrict military uses \( ie , , grenade , atomic bomb , etc \) hydrogen bomb , perhaps 4 would describe hci gun control activists determined make illegal civilian use firearm \? yep 5 personally read brady bill entirety \? yep thank , gary lance w bledsoe lwb im4u cs utexas edu \( 512 \) 258 0112 ye shall know truth , truth shall make free
aj359 cleveland freenet edu \( christopher c morton \) subject waco shootout highlights total irresponsibility organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 13 reply aj359 cleveland freenet edu \( christopher c morton \) nntp posting host slc10 ins cwru edu previous article , irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \( brent irvine \) says come , guys , looks like time move juvenile public post either e mail different newsgroup \( alt sex bondage holly silva \? \) , brent would alt sex bondage holly silva goofy anti semite \) smarter , 'd opinions
george com subject tx senator bob krueger statement nntp posting host 127 0 0 1 organization performance systems int'l x mailer dos \( 3 3 \) lines 10 interested , finished talking representative senator bob krueger 's campaign position krueger appointed democratic governor texas complete lloyd bentsen 's term representative said senator krueger position would comment specific legislation pending comment available various versions brady bill warned vote accordingly
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject , wilder hit airwaves support brady bill organization stratus computer , inc lines 14 distribution world nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article 1993apr1 r node hub org , ndallen r node hub org \( nigel allen \) writes press release handgun control inc ironic jim observing march 30 country finds america 's level gun violence unacceptable , unbelievable , said mrs brady , chair handgun control inc \? would consider staying \? cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
lvc cbnews cb att com \( larry cipriani \) subject believe gun control organization ideology busters , inc lines 22 article 1993apr3 news duc auburn edu bixledn eng auburn edu writes article cbnews cb att com , lvc cbnews cb att com \( larry cipriani \) writes , n't read closely says may answer civil rights restored done either state think feds stopped convicted violent felonies least dozen states still restore felons civil rights , immediately upon release , waiting period post list states later quick question , larry , person 's civil rights restored , still considered felon \? good question n't know law considers imo , rights restored , makes sense record felony , everything else purged , person question longer felon believe happens states larry cipriani l v cipriani att com
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject funded gun epidemic propaganda campaign commence organization stratus computer , inc lines 38 distribution world nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article magpie linknet com , manes magpie linknet com \( steve manes \) writes morris cat \( rats cbnewsc cb att com \) wrote well , neal knox firearms coalition points , full force anti gun ruling class , multi millions , polling organizations , schools , news media , entertainment media entertainment media force anti gun ruling class \? \? media 's made billions producing films television glorify guns gun users \? another anti gun media \? 've got kidding , mean consider absolutely impossible media guilty hypocrisy \? note film industry california traded political support assault weapon ban state amendment bill entertainment industry ban note issue batman comic book \( gun \) produced tool gun control organizations carries back page ad terminator ii video game extolling numerous varied sophisticated weapons available player note arthur , publisher ny times one oldest incessant gun control carries concealed handgun still , find completely incredible folks live , say , cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
hays ssd intel com \( kirk hays \) subject , wilder hit airwaves support brady bill nntp posting host taos organization intel supercomputer systems division lines 26 article 1993apr5 ucsu colorado edu , fcrary ucsu colorado edu \( frank crary \) writes article 1993apr2 msc cornell edu msc cornell edu \( stephen russell \) writes i'm moving arizona everyone carries guns n't , approximate probabilities 'll get shot end six months \? 1 20 , 000 assuming fbi statistics course , 're criminal , hang around criminals , flash large cash wilder parts town , utter verbal bigotry right public places , chances shot much higher avoiding behaviors , hand , decreases chances shot something like 60 murders criminals killing criminals 90 murders committed people prior known history violence simplistic moral , suitable three year old , inane posters bad people bad things repeatedly kirk hays nra life , seventh generation thing necessary triumph evil good men nothing edmund burke \( 1797 \)
paull hplabsz hpl hp com \( robert paull \) subject waco dates coincidental \? distribution usa organization hewlett packard laboratories palo alto , ca x newsreader tin version 1 1 4 pl6 lines 50 richard cower \( cower csli stanford edu \) wrote believe raid ill planned 2 days plan , continued failure obvious bit part much larger political agenda president clinton would even suggest loss 4 atf agents inconsequential context political agenda might even beneficial agenda , helps point evil assualt weapons proof might atf denied agents \( street stories report \) requests sufficient fire power important dates feb 25th nj assembly votes overturn assault weapon ban feb 28th compound waco attacked feb 25th new jersey assembly voted overturn assault weapon ban state looked like might tight vote , senate n j going vote overturn ban would sit well eastern state overturn assault weapon ban , given clintons stated agenda gun control suspect clinton gave order get someone group assualt weapons press present \( initially incident waco \) record event tv audience agent street stories reported supervisor urging get ready fast , know coming believe attack continued , even tho failure high , came top n j assembly vote , atf limited amount time come something , wackos waco fit bill nicely rich n't know rich last year congress debating , incident cafe occured anti gun crap amended bill anyway could president go find 'assault bring media hope frankly , toon scares course democratic majority congress n't help \( apologies support rkba \) \( definition toon name current president u clinton aka , aka toon \) rob p
slagle lmsc lockheed com \( mark slagle \) subject nra reply slagle lmsc lockheed com reply doctor1 cbnewse cb att com 's message mon , 5 apr 1993 04 24 50 gmt organization would n't ask 'd seen desk slagle sgi417 msd lmsc lockheed com 1993apr5 2071 cbnewse cb att com lines 27 article 1993apr5 2071 cbnewse cb att com , doctor1 cbnewse cb att com \( patrick b \) writes article slagle sgi417 msd lmsc lockheed com slagle lmsc lockheed com writes article dixie com , jgd dixie com \( john de armond \) writes , actually i'm lot familiar care i'm bit hesitant continue thread brings back horrible memories first encounter larouche branch made mistake buying connection lyndon larouche libertarian party pure product fertile imagination naw , perhaps reads time magazine 's fair stretch anyone 's imagination expect attach credibility anything written time magazine past twenty years , 'd imagine enquirer least gets names attached right body parts mark mark e slagle po box slagle lmsc lockheed com sunnyvale , ca 408 756 usa
cadence com \( john young \) subject ffl questions organization cadence design systems , inc lines 8 questions 'd like ask first , would someone \( \) able get dealers license second , besides dear old departed 's , would find good place learn replies appreciated ! john
fcrary ucsu colorado edu \( frank crary \) subject gun control \( 're mad hell tv news \) nntp posting host ucsu colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 63 article magpie linknet com manes magpie linknet com \( steve manes \) writes hand , draw lessons neighbors culturally similar , namely canadians n't think canada culturally similar united states england terms laws regarding individual rights , restrictions police searches , etc \( closely related crime \) canadian laws parallel england 's differ greatly united states fact , exhaustive , seven year study already done respective crime rates vancouver , british columbia seattle , washington cities roughly population , urban economy , geography crime decidedly different approaches gun control actually , roughly urban economy , extremely different ethnic composition seven year study , 388 homicides occurred seattle \( 11 3 per 100 , 000 \) vs 204 homicides vancouver \( 6 9 per 100 , 000 \) adjustment differences age sex among populations , relative risk victim homicide seattle , compared vancouver , found 1 63 however , account economic ethnic differences , difference disappears completely seattle 's minorities poor , vancouver 's middle upper class rates whites cities found , rate poor , seattle minorities almost three times great well minorities vancouver pattern seems one poverty race relations , one gun control authors report also investigated legally justifiable homicides \( self defense \) 32 homicides occurred seven year study , 11 committed police 21 cases civilians acting self defense gross distortion self defense mean killing attacker 21 cases civilians killing attacker self defence cases represent less 0 5 crimes prevented armed self defence every case cite , 200 cases self defence crime prevented attacker killed \( 0 5 , way , conservative possible figure , based national crime survey 's estimate 80 , 000 crimes prevented armed self defence year studies subject put figure 500 , 000 600 , 000 figures would imply less 0 08 sucessful self involve killing attacker \) , correctly , 4000 \( possibly many 25 , 000 \) cases civilians acting self defence , 21 resulted death attacker significant factor , comparison 592 homicides memory serves , homicides make approximately 1 violent crimes study considered , fair comparison would 40 250 homicides prevented 592 homicides clearly , study close accurate , since ignored cases self defence frank crary cu boulder
acpub duke edu \( chuck \) subject bill america clinton strikes summary repost alt rush limbaugh distribution na organization duke university durham , n c lines 31 nntp posting host acpub duke edu wam umd edu \( busch \) writes argument sounds stupid ability make guns simple easy , drug dealers would make would n't \? \? \? spend hundreds dollars buying gun somebody else made cheap selling \? \? \? simple truth matter , regardless easy make guns , banning guns reduce number new guns impede efforts killer intent buying weapon show tools argument ever seen take analogy computer science almost every computer science major write wordprocessor yet \( comp sci majors \) would willingly pay 3 400 bucks professional software like wordperfect n't write software \? \? \? highly ! ! ! guns secondly one get gunpowder home made gun \? \? \? take quick trip local 7 eleven \? \? \? guns really simple make bosnian muslims would happy people \( case tools banned bosnia \? \? \? \( deep sarcasm \) \) well two cents resume reading post people must make living stand comedy end forwarded material , rubber beneath brilliant lights headed dreams 'd nights crowd ball descended would grant wish \? doubt casey 's mind , knew !
tms cs umd edu \( tom swiss \( swift , , swiss ! \) \) subject fwd free nra membership offer organization reality liberation front \( pixels people ! \) lines 28 andy sail stanford edu \( andy freeman \) writes nra supports anyone 's pro gun chance winning election , regardless positions fault drug anti gun \? fault drug pro gun ca n't get elected \? 's nra 's fault something consider considering contributing nra candidate b complete asshole whose saving grace opposes unnecessary restrictions firearms , would n't want membership dues funding efforts get elected problems nra \( organization individual members 've met loyal , trustworthy , honest , brave , etc , especially boss probably reads newsgroup b \) definitely pro hunting , recall seeing pro desert storm nra bumper sticker sometimes come strong political arena , contributes reputation bad guys amoung many people tom swiss tms cs umd edu born die keep laws brain ! 's funny 'bout peace , love understanding \? nick lowe sig contains animal products tested animals would feel optimistic bright future man spent less time proving nature time respecting e b white
arc cco caltech edu \( aaron ray clements \) subject usual organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 30 nntp posting host sandman caltech edu kendall lds loral com \( colin kendall \) writes heard anti gun control people giving usual arguments 's everyone 's right bear arms , way solve problem people getting killed guns better law enforcement strikes argument could logically extended follows nuclear weapon arm , hence anyone right nuclear weapons someone uses nuclear weapons blow new york , l , chicago , 's okay long good police force capable finding putting jail , serve deterrent others anti gun control people disagree , , \? yes , pro gun , yes , disagree statement nuclear weapons dangerous radioactive decay plutonium uranium , well weapon , tends somewhat dangerous living things \( say neutron flux \? \) plus things self defense purposes 's kinda hard justify use militia weapon best meant battlefield use \( low yield weapons \) worst industrial target \( translation cities population centers \) mention used militia weapon expect user live requires sort launch vehicle aaron arc cco caltech edu
fcrary ucsu colorado edu \( frank crary \) subject gun control \( 're mad hell tv news \) nntp posting host ucsu colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder distribution na lines 62 article magpie linknet com manes magpie linknet com \( steve manes \) writes 's well good , refering , ones involving handguns \( fixation death shooting , somehow worse death stabbing \? \) relevance homicides debate \? issue guns , baseball bats issue reducing crime , guns gun control n't lower crime overall , n't address issue even simpleton knows stands better chance surviving attack baseball bat matter assaults baseball bat become much common \? muggers using gun rely primarily threat gun , rarely shoot victim mugger using knife much likely start stabbing victim effort , may deadly gun , criminals likely actually use knife \( opposed threatening victim \) n't clear replacing criminal 's gun knife would reduce murders might become common 's important look overall \( gun \) homicide rate avoids issue substitution , different criminal using different weapons , etc measures want prevent murders knives , see earlier post 'd much rather face knife gun , thanks face \? possibly however , facing knife welding attackers n't common stabbing without warning usual tactic criminals shoot cover attracts much attention n't chance go pockets overall , 'd much rather threatened gun actually stabbed knife fortunately , best defense knife n't another knife anyone trained unarmed self defense wo n't much problem disarming knife assailant untrained knife assault \( probably means 99 9 knife assailants \) actually , exact statement true guns training unarmed self defence let disarm untrained without much problem also ignore criminal 's reaction national crime survey clearly shows criminals \( unarmed , armed knife , gun whatever \) unwilling risk lives confrontation faced serious threat , almost prefer leave find easier target therefore , using \( threatening use , much commonly case \) weapon best defence attacker , regardless armed knives , however , much less effective guns criminals n't consider knifes serious threat nearly often guns frank crary cu boulder
fcrary ucsu colorado edu \( frank crary \) subject gun control \( 're mad hell tv news \) nntp posting host ucsu colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder distribution na lines 59 article magpie linknet com manes magpie linknet com \( steve manes \) writes n't know anyone state gun control could effect homicide rates n't think anyone arguing would effect would net positive effect also consider negative side law abiding citizens , armed \( pistols part \) , prevent 80 , 000 \( national crime survey \) 1 , 000 , 000 \( dr kleck \) crimes year \( extremes studies find number 500 , 000 600 , 000 \) 1 crimes homicides , private ownership firearms saves approximately 5 , 000 lives year roughly 12 , 000 criminal homicides fatal accidents involving guns year net benefit , would show gun control measures would disarm 40 criminals currently using guns would hard according federal batf , 8 criminals buy guns counter since gun control laws , nature , effect legal sales , law would remove benefits armed , law abiding citizens minimal effect armed criminals \( , large , get guns illegally \) n't sound like net benefit 250 accidental handgun homicides america 1990 , licensed weapons since licensed weapons , assume supporting reasonable laws \( e waiting periods , background checks , licenses , etc \) since complete ban would alter statistic refer , assume 's supporting way , 1135 people dies 1986 falling stairs 250 accidental handgun deaths n't significant next household accidents american children accidentally shot children last year \( 15 \) handgun homicides great britain 1080 children age 10 died drowning , 69 drinking poisonous household chemicals \( like \) , 139 falls real goal reduce tragic , accidental deaths children , would n't ban drain cleaners better start \? \( , perhaps , restricting ownership professionals like \? \) please dictionary arguments rates vs total numbers , okay \? 're offered emphasis , comparison \) might call emphasis , refering completely two statistics sentence implies comparison n't valid , put numbers together convince people right , thing could call propaganda frank crary cu boulder
fcrary ucsu colorado edu \( frank crary \) subject gun control \( 're mad hell tv news \) nntp posting host ucsu colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder distribution na lines 31 article ecf magpie linknet com manes magpie linknet com \( steve manes \) writes betraying lack understanding rate versus total number rates expressed , often , 100 , 000 population therefore , place 10 deaths population 100 , 000 , rate would 10 100 , 000 place 50 deaths population 1 , 000 , 000 would hav rate 5 100 , 000 former higher rate , latter higher total less likely die latter simple enuff \? chrissakes , take calculator work numbers 've preformatted make easier handgun homicides population switzerland 24 6 , 350 , 000 uk 8 55 , 670 , 000 tell switzerland safer liberal handgun law uk without rate total number choice 40 homicides total \( e using guns , knives , tire , baseball bats , bare hands , etc \) switzerland year 850 homicides , total , england 's three times worse per capita england switzerland since dead dead , really n't matter 60 murders involved gun 0 9 english murderers frank crary cu boulder
fcrary ucsu colorado edu \( frank crary \) subject bill america clinton strikes nntp posting host ucsu colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder distribution na lines 82 article news duke edu acpub duke edu \( chuck \) writes argument sounds stupid ability make guns simple easy , drug dealers would make would n't \? \? \? according los angeles police department , illegal manufacture one three primary sources machine guns guns used crimes \( theft police military two \) washington c police stated 40 \( i'm remembering figure correctly \) guns illegally built spend hundreds dollars buying gun somebody else made cheap selling \? \? \? takes 6 hours tools make one \( least one reasonable quality \) unless drug dealer messing around \( say , hobby \) , 's going pay someone anyway materials plus six hours 's time something legal would run 100 prices guns usually 50 200 range \( least 've seen cited newspaper articles \) simple truth matter , regardless easy make guns , banning guns reduce number new guns impede efforts killer intent buying weapon washington c total ban handguns prohibits assembled rifles within city limits 's homicide rate almost ten times national average also illegal c resident drive virginia maryland suburbs buy gun \( dealers required federal law check ids make sure buyer n't another state \) ban easily side stepped show tools argument ever seen take analogy computer science almost every computer science major write wordprocessor yet \( comp sci majors \) would willingly pay 3 400 bucks professional software like wordperfect n't write software \? \? \? highly ! ! ! sure could n't buy one , would write \( fact , people write 15 years ago \) likely , would find friend particularly good programer get give copy software bad example case many people know illegal copies 400 word processors \? people want something , n't available \( affordable \) legally , usually get illegally guns quite secondly one get gunpowder home made gun \? \? \? 13 3 2 formula around half million years going restrict sales , charcoal \? 's alot modern powder , works well real problems 25 reduction energy \( 357 magnum would deadly 9mm \) makes alot smoke course , smart black could make gun 9mm steal ammunition police \( police often , things known disappear police evidence rooms streets \) guns really simple make bosnian muslims would happy people \( case tools banned bosnia \? \? \? \( deep sarcasm \) \) perhaps n't watching news two years ago , serbs also tried invade driven weeks armed home made anti tank weapons rebels frequently made rifles frank crary cu boulder
franceschi pasadena dc bofa com subject gov't break ins \( 60 minutes \) organization bank america systems engineering , pasadena , ca lines 20 los angeles radio station last weekend , lawyers family murdered rancher said los angeles sheriff 's department assessment done rancher 's property raid strongly implies sheriff 's department wanted property drugs \( found \) excuse viet nam , lt tried convicted murder troops , war setting , deliberately killed innocent people time domestic law enforcement agencies country adhere standards least moral military 's greed killed rancher , possibly greed killed davidian children government greed time prosecute leaders perform invasions fred franceschi \( opinions ! \)
manes magpie linknet com \( steve manes \) subject gun control \( 're mad hell tv news \) organization manes associates , nyc x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 24 j spencer \( j spencer newcastle ac uk \) wrote manes magpie linknet com \( steve manes \) writes jim de arras \( jmd cube handheld com \) wrote last year us suffered almost 10 , 000 wrongful accidental deaths handguns alone \( fbi statistics \) year , uk suffered 35 deaths \( scotland yard statistics \) population uk 1 5 us \( 10 , 000 \( 35 5 \) \) weighted population , us 57x many handgun related deaths uk , , brits n't make murdering 57x many people baseball bats snip examine figures , stabbing favourite , closely followed striking , punching , kicking many people burnt death britain shot death take look 'll see means people shot death great britain stephen manes manes magpie linknet com manes associates new york , ny , usa
manes magpie linknet com \( steve manes \) subject gun control \( 're mad hell tv news \) organization manes associates , nyc distribution na x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 44 jim de arras \( jmd cube handheld com \) wrote article magpie linknet com manes magpie linknet com \( steve manes \) writes n't know anyone state gun control could effect homicide rates 250 accidental handgun homicides america 1990 , licensed weapons american children accidentally shot children last year \( 15 \) handgun homicides great britain \( source national safety council please dictionary arguments rates vs total numbers , okay \? 're offered emphasis , comparison \) 're great chose sources information , claim superior , 've made claim please direct attention towards posting mine claimed superior sources information 's probably bothered post references others seem content post numbers pulled ozone , 've confused fact twisting , apologize take twisted numbers twist trying well , 's fair opportunity prove 've twisted numbers grounds contradict references \? citations sources take similar gratuitous shots \? compare absolute numbers two countries major population differences , usa gb , whine afraid someone might attack process , claim numbers emphasis , comparison \? emphasis \? nitpicking debating style , jim anything else blowing smoke , stephen manes manes magpie linknet com manes associates new york , ny , usa
kennejs cs okstate edu \( kennedy james scot \) subject universal right bear arms \? ! organization oklahoma state university , computer science , stillwater lines 73 nathan laplace biology yale edu \( nathan f \) writes article 1993apr2 cs okstate edu kennejs cs okstate edu \( kennedy james scot \) writes gary ke4zv uucp \( gary coffman \) writes article 1993apr1 cs yale edu nathan laplace biology yale edu writes article ms uky edu miles ms uky edu \( stephen grant \) writes nathan laplace biology yale edu \( nathan f \) writes suppose 's true maintain ak ar hunting weapons think fun cans targets random vc , suitable real hunting wrong legal hunt kentucky picture friend nice 8 point buck shot ar 15 rifle n't think many deer hunters would condone friends choice rifle must agree nathan deer hunter , find inhumane use underpowered weapons deer hunting kill cleanly little 223 requires extremely good marksmanship hunting situations n't allow perfect shots hunters use sufficiently powerful weapons drop deer single hit chest 7 47 sks adequate task , similar ballistics familiar 30 30 , little 223 marginal hands expert , lucky , , hunters really respect gary 'll agree popular 55 gr loading 223 rem small deer sized game however , use 70 gr semi sierra 63 gr semi pointed bullet would suitable \( like round , keep shots within reasonable range \) would still lower end 'd consider acceptable performance , especially long distance shots west hunting monster mule deer 223 rem declared legal deer hunting oklahoma 223 excellent varmit hunting pest control ar 15 particular well suited , given heavy barrel heat shielded add high power scope , 're dog heaven however , n't think nathan refering specific rifle question maybe thinks self loading rifles place deer hunting may \( may \) opinion , many use self loading rifles shotguns , nra man definitely referring round , auto loading aspect rifle problem responsible hunting n't include machine guns , semi fine uncle bagged several deer 12 gauge would prefer hunter use much catch possible , n't condone hunting sport imho , course two questions 1 \) asserted ar 15 ak 47 suitable real hunting problem hunting , using self loading rifles hunting , say \? deer , , smaller game \? 2 \) get nickname nra man \? notice never referred n't seem like get super powers , like spider man toast man \? scott kennedy brewer , patriot , nra man , defender truth , justice , 2nd amendment kennejs cs okstate edu
hays ssd intel com \( kirk hays \) subject gov't break ins \( 60 minutes \) nntp posting host taos organization intel supercomputer systems division lines 23 article 1993apr5 114 pasadena dc bofa com , franceschi pasadena dc bofa com writes los angeles radio station last weekend , lawyers family murdered rancher said los angeles sheriff 's department assessment done rancher 's property raid briefing documents raid notation similar local property sold 800 , 000 prior raid , recent tv coverage believed strongly implies sheriff 's department wanted property drugs \( found \) excuse ventura county da came conclusion report released , sheriff 's office bad old man nearly blind , n't take goose stepping drug warriors \( tm \) kirk hays nra life , seventh generation thing necessary triumph evil good men nothing edmund burke \( 1797 \)
arc cco caltech edu \( aaron ray clements \) subject universal right bear arms \? ! organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 25 distribution usa nntp posting host sandman caltech edu rats cbnewsc cb att com \( morris cat \) writes wrong , want proof turn tv look show chuck connors called , rifleman time fast fire old lever action rifle believe , remember seeing advertisement someone selling one apparently winchester produced bunch commercially commemorate television show believe sold handgun barrel length lack stock might weapon gun used steve wanted dead alive , sorry winchester make commemorative models rifle used chuck connors movie \? chuck connors nra member died recently n't know sure winchester made recall correctly , rifle 44 40 model 92 oversized loop lever n't think winchester makes rifle rossi make model 92 look alike 38 special 357 magnum aaron arc cco caltech edu
arc cco caltech edu \( aaron ray clements \) subject aclu \( waco shootout \) organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 17 nntp posting host sandman caltech edu paul hager hagerp cs indiana edu writes 2nd amendment say keep bear bear defined mean carry , people physically unable carry several hundred pound nuclear device understand , sub nuclear man portable carried backpack recall , 60 's kennedy administration sub nuclear weapons withdrawn europe destroyed man portable made use shoulder mount rocket launchers smallest nuclear test 've seen data 1 \( yes , one tenth \) weapon tested either late 40 's early 50 's aaron arc cco caltech edu
minh lang minh inst jpl nasa gov subject gov't break ins \( 60 minutes \) organization jet propulsion laboratory lines 23 distribution world nntp posting host 128 149 109 37 x useragent nuntius v1 1 1d17 x xxdate mon , 5 apr 93 16 17 37 gmt article 1993apr5 114 pasadena dc bofa com , franceschi pasadena dc bofa com writes viet nam , lt tried convicted murder troops , war setting , deliberately killed innocent people time domestic law enforcement agencies country adhere standards least moral military 's , lt later acquitted troops killed 400 500 people , including kids , elderly women sure n't want see domestic law enforcement agencies country adhere military standards , 're big trouble \( lai massacre covered high ranking officials involved acquitted \) minh minh lang , software engineer jet propulsion laboratory instrumentation systems group instrumentation section 375 note employer nothing said
yang earlham edu subject none distribution talk organization earlham college , richmond , indiana lines 44 article 1993apr4 , nigel allen canrem com \( nigel allen \) writes press release handgun control inc sarah brady calls governor veto nra bill urged follow clinton 's lead state desk contact cheryl handgun control inc , 202 898 washington , april 2 letter today indiana gov evan , sarah brady , wife former white house press secretary james brady chair handgun control inc , called governor veto nra backed preemption legislation \( b 241 \) , would wipe existing local gun laws prohibit localities future regulations governing sale , possession transfer firearms i'm counting gov show kind political courage president clinton showed governor arkansas , twice vetoed type special interest legislation , mrs brady said , referring clinton 's veto nra backed preemption bills 1989 1991 knew would sell us full blooded democrat , \) seriously folks , happen \( remember \? got gun racks \) , happen anywhere get letter ready , one n't vote , sincerely say unhappy ' 30 nigel allen , toronto , ontario , canada nigel allen canrem com canada remote systems toronto , ontario 416 629 7000 629 7044 know 's best us must try save us rush jason alley opinions expressed given earlham college , richmond aliens living pancreas yang earlham edu empire never ended
arc cco caltech edu \( aaron ray clements \) subject usual organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 41 distribution na nntp posting host sandman caltech edu hollombe polymath tti com \( polymath \) writes possession nuclear arms \( actually weapons grade \) currently regulated market forces e either make , buy steal thing stops cost \( nations afford \) , fact one wants sell tight security maintained existing stocks \( ask saddam hussein \) impression obtain materials \( e , plutonium reactor weapons grade uranium \) one required obtain federal permit materials given source , build bomb garage parts hardware stores electronic junk supplies might engage shady dealings get explosive charge , 's trivial compared getting plutonium basic information design declassified years ago dug technical library physics grad student actually , bother looking \? material covered last term \( 10 weeks \) ge ch 127 \( nuclear chemistry \) , could derive would take build bomb far explosive charge , \( chemist \) could synthesize variety explosives commonly available chemicals garage felt like electronics behind shaped charges little trickier , however impossible using tricks trade really wanted nasty , could include core hydrogen deuterium course , hardest part getting material start , living long enough put bomb together \( plutonium nasty properties \) polymath \( aka jerry hollombe , , cdp , aka hollombe polymath tti com \) head robot wrangler citicorp laws define crime 3100 ocean park blvd \( 310 \) 450 9111 , police enforce laws santa monica , ca 90405 citizens prevent crime aaron arc cco caltech edu
arc cco caltech edu \( aaron ray clements \) subject another nytimes yellow sheet editorial \( 4 4 93 \) organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 23 nntp posting host sandman caltech edu feustel netcom com \( david feustel \) writes uninformed , purposefully ignorant gun control ranting deleted thanks n r , f prohibited researching effectiveness using taggants explosives , taggants cheap technologically feasible microscopic additive would help investigators crime scenes like world trade center bombing trace explosives involved want man tell hell take explosives used wtc bombing , considering consensus seems explosive fertilizer based one , exact 90 , 000 tons disappears per year \( recall stat correctly n't \) one disregarding reality push point bunk deleted aaron arc cco caltech edu
organization university illinois chicago , academic computer center u23590 uicvm uic edu subject waco dates coincidental \? distribution usa 1993apr5 hplabsz hpl hp com lines 19 think unlikely clinton ro policy arranged waco raid display piece gun war constitution look bush administration get material drug war constitution remember crack george waved cameras \? took dealer ghetto brought white house could say drugs dealt white house lawn n't think anybody could honestly think clinton would moral qualms raid really worrisome thing bd 's heroic defense ranch make clinton 's gun war constitution exactly wanted media politicians filter general public think bd 's bad guys ! n't help stand bd 's friends family public anytime supposed moral qualms important issue heroes fight oppressive government could well watkins earth eecs uic edu \( brian e watkins \)
dduff col hp com \( dave duff \) subject gun control proud canuck organization hp colorado springs division lines 11 nntp posting host fajita19 cs itc hp com anyone really believe swiss war within borders every adult male owns rifle \? i'm great swiss , 500 years peace turf zilch gun ownership picture hitler , poised border , losing sleep thousand expert rifleman \? sure hitler stayed switzerland swiss run money world 'd well emulate forget getting rifles street let 's nra start national investment banking association , red black sticker back window bubba 's mercedes 600 ! could fire charlton get paul spokesman
cathy lance colostate edu \( cathy smith \) subject questions ponder distribution usa nntp posting host blanca lance colostate edu organization colorado state university , fort collins , co 80523 lines 62 libertarian second amendment caucus fort collins , colorado , submitted questionnaire city council candidates upcoming election expected , candidates \( 3 13 \) responded , know 're watching feel free use questions strike fancy use inspiration 1 would willing state , writing , publicly demonstrated violated oath office would resign never run office \? 2 circumstances rights group come rights individual \? 3 would support city charter amendment prohibiting city government , officials , agents , employees initiating force human reason \? 4 please put following list order precedence \( lowest highest \) \) city ordinance , b \) city resolution , c \) state law , \) federal statute , e \) u constitution , f \) state constitution 5 believe 's appropriate city official employee paid average private sector constituent \? 6 believe involuntary contributions legitimate means funding council programs \? 7 would support program recognizing right taxpayers taxes \( either must used must used \) specific programs \? 8 event candidate none win city election , option believe appropriate \? \) candidate next highest vote total fills office b \) special election held fill office , none previous candidates eligible run c \) let office remain next election \) abolish office please return questionnaire address choice signature date line added thank taking time fill questionnaire sent self addressed , stamped envelopes p one person get perfect score questionnaire , , , n't help write cathy smith opinions , course ,
fcrary ucsu colorado edu \( frank crary \) subject gun control proud canuck nntp posting host ucsu colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 29 article hp col col hp com dduff col hp com \( dave duff \) writes anyone really believe swiss war within borders every adult male owns rifle \? i'm great swiss , 500 years peace turf zilch gun ownership picture hitler , poised border , losing sleep thousand expert rifleman \? sure swiss population \( well \) far larger think question , losing sleep million expert riflemen \? certainly could conquered switzerland , million armed militiamen \( especially mountainous area , effectiveness limited \) would made real pain question would ask , worth trouble \? difficult invasion , likely answer would certainly million riflemen \( opposed professional army ten twenty thousand , best country size switzerland could support \) , makes invasions difficult hitler stayed switzerland swiss run money world really \? 1939 \? i'm even sure could prove today \( despite \) certainly swiss essential german war time economy frank crary cu boulder
viking iastate edu \( dan sorenson \) subject usual organization iowa state university , ames ia lines 54 arc cco caltech edu \( aaron ray clements \) writes yes , pro gun , yes , disagree statement nuclear weapons dangerous radioactive decay plutonium uranium , well weapon , tends somewhat dangerous living things \( say neutron flux \? \) say , get background radiation living denver office building standing next power reactor full power standing next nuclear warhead armed \? look shielding dictionary n't need six feet lead make decent shielding dead skin cell layer excellent job alpha particles , neutrons slowed mere water think 75 \? plus things self defense purposes 's kinda hard justify use militia weapon best meant battlefield use \( low yield weapons \) worst industrial target \( translation cities population centers \) militia job overthrow illegal government , indeed useful weapons militia wo n't useful certain areas , pentagon would good thing said overthrow 's likely one man carrying backpack would stand better chance one thousand armed colt peacemakers n't let self defense become reason gun sole means justification , wo n't overthrow government ceases legal government , need want every weapon get one easily say rifle larger 22 needed kill human right human wearing armor riding apc , things get bit different n't see weapon problem 's manner use contention mention used militia weapon expect user live requires sort launch vehicle guess either n't alarm clock never heard terms timer martyr either n't forget remote devices cb radio pickup next easily transmit ten miles decent weather 's blast radius many portable nuclear devices radioactive decay worried \? dan sorenson , dod 1066 z1dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu censors read , say n't blame usenet post exotic , distant machines meet exciting , unusual people flame
viking iastate edu \( dan sorenson \) subject usual organization iowa state university , ames ia distribution na lines 45 arc cco caltech edu \( aaron ray clements \) writes impression obtain materials \( e , plutonium reactor weapons grade uranium \) one required obtain federal permit materials , merely start working else devise system get sources btw doe handles reactor fuel , merely reactors nrc reactors military sources private citizen none official sources actually , bother looking \? material covered last term \( 10 weeks \) ge ch 127 \( nuclear chemistry \) , could derive would take build bomb 's freshman level chemistry big deal make work \? 's phd level physics big difference far explosive charge , \( chemist \) could synthesize variety explosives commonly available chemicals garage felt like electronics behind shaped charges little trickier , however impossible using tricks trade really wanted nasty , could include core hydrogen deuterium admit 's law could stop \? physics aside , could make one funds time \? answer yes , lock \? surely see comparison anti gun laws comes play \? course , hardest part getting material start , living long enough put bomb together \( plutonium nasty properties \) precisely 's readily utilized seem lead believe btw 98 far better home made bombs trying use plutonium laws physics make creation device without serious manufacturing facilities low probability dan sorenson , dod 1066 z1dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu censors read , say n't blame usenet post exotic , distant machines meet exciting , unusual people flame
ipser solomon technet sg \( ed ipser \) subject waco shootout highlights total irresponsibility nntp posting host solomon technet sg organization technet , singapore lines 20 article 1993apr5 uucp uucp \( andrew ford , phoenix , arizona \) writes article ksu ksu edu , ksu ksu edu \( steve davis \) writes cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) writes needs gun right , n't already one \? victim cut run purse makes purse , containing id , house keys gun 're saying run right store , buy gun , run back outside shoot guy back runs \? n't , 's saying lost gun wants buy another sits home alone tonight , 's sitting duck bastard wants break fact , situation grim , even purse home address woman lives alone , great personal danger
subject washington state kim39 scws8 harvard edu \( john kim \) organization harvard university science center nntp posting host scws8 harvard edu lines 14 article 1993mar30 synapse bms com hambidge bms com writes article uicvm uic edu , u23590 uicvm uic edu writes ccw acronym concealed carrying weapon basically , permit carry concealed pistol revolver phoned licensing division washington state ask application ccw instead promptly sent becoming firearms dealer washington ! even sent firearms safety pamphlet case kim
gardner convex com \( steve gardner \) subject gov't break ins \( 60 minutes \) nntp posting host imagine convex com organization engineering , convex computer corp , richardson , tx , usa x disclaimer message written user convex computer corp opinions expressed user necessarily convex lines 25 article 1993apr5 114 pasadena dc bofa com franceschi pasadena dc bofa com writes viet nam , lt tried convicted murder troops , war setting , deliberately killed innocent people time domestic law enforcement agencies country adhere standards least moral military 's ! ! call responsibility accountability police invariably interpreted soft crime tough crime building prisons seizing property politically thing days greed killed rancher , possibly greed killed davidian children government greed citizen complacency ! time prosecute leaders perform invasions n't forget politicians write laws make easy police agencies become corrupt war drugs brought us corruption end \( legalization \) stop corruption smg
subject thanks poster ny times article atf texas kim39 scws8 harvard edu \( john kim \) distribution world organization harvard university science center nntp posting host scws8 harvard edu lines 12 good job whoever posted article 'd saving nytimes edition , planning , n't people worried whether media would even question raid , owe ny times \( despite anti gun editorials \) willing talk 4 batf agents case kim
greg puck webo dg com \( \) subject rkba nyc radio station reply greg puck webo dg com organization x 500 , data general corp lines 31 actually , real reason stern getting bigger rating share new c , quality \( call \) show fine issued started get better ratings curious individuals wanted see bad actually since came c greater turn grease words , people get sick sooner grease , saying vagina penis air hilarious first , second time still little funny , time , time , think greatest man planet \( tell everyone \) going get old really quick give mark wrong excuse , really new show , 'd know n't say vagina penis get 's ratings also real issues well outrageous n't hear idiots funny show getting serious topics time , get 's people think time , try listening show little closer tell wrong , way , flash pan , ratings sustain well \? hmm \? greg w greg puck webo dg com j e jets jets jets
pspod bigbird lerc nasa gov \( steve podleski \) subject founding father questions nntp posting host bigbird lerc nasa gov organization nasa lewis research center cleveland , ohio lines 21 arc cco caltech edu \( aaron ray clements \) writes n't one making comment '88 george born silver foot mouth \? sounds like another damn politician ai n't like old days texas anymore politicians may corrupt , least 'd take stand \( apologies exceptions think \) news house may already two thirds majority , opposition concern image \( 's even said publicly \) may matter people expect texans congressmen act n j republicans \? steve podleski phone 216 433 4000 nasa lewis research center cleveland , ohio 44135 email pspod lerc nasa gov
jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) subject gun control \( 're mad hell tv news \) organization hand held products , inc lines 70 distribution na nntp posting host dale handheld com article magpie linknet com manes magpie linknet com \( steve manes \) writes jim de arras \( jmd cube handheld com \) wrote article magpie linknet com manes magpie linknet com \( steve manes \) writes n't know anyone state gun control could effect homicide rates 250 accidental handgun homicides america 1990 , licensed weapons american children accidentally shot children last year \( 15 \) handgun homicides great britain \( source national safety council please dictionary arguments rates vs total numbers , okay \? 're offered emphasis , comparison \) 're great chose sources information , claim superior i'm aware using numbers ozone , unless consider got 've made claim please direct attention towards posting mine claimed superior sources information 's probably bothered post references others seem content post numbers pulled ozone , 've confused fact twisting , apologize yes , state reference , claim 's good fair treatment take twisted numbers twist trying well , 's fair opportunity prove 've twisted numbers grounds contradict references \? citations sources take similar gratuitous shots \? fail see differences absolute numbers rates compare absolute numbers two countries major population differences , usa gb , whine afraid someone might attack process , claim numbers emphasis , comparison \? emphasis \? nitpicking debating style , jim , miss point methods , prove gun control total failure new york 's total count , 's strict gun control , much higher rhode island 's , 's less strict gun control far folks killed new york , rhode island therefore , according logic \( tm \) , gun control made new york much dangerous place rhode island remember , 's nitpicking debating style point differences new york rhode island might defeat argument anything else blowing smoke , agree \? wow , break ! stephen manes manes magpie linknet com manes associates new york , ny , usa jim
fcrary ucsu colorado edu \( frank crary \) subject gun control \( 're mad hell tv news \) nntp posting host ucsu colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 24 article magpie linknet com manes magpie linknet com \( steve manes \) writes last year us suffered almost 10 , 000 wrongful accidental deaths handguns alone \( fbi statistics \) year , uk suffered 35 deaths \( scotland yard statistics \) population uk 1 5 us \( 10 , 000 \( 35 5 \) \) weighted population , us 57x many handgun related deaths uk , , brits n't make murdering 57x many people baseball bats examine figures , stabbing favourite , closely followed striking , punching , kicking many people burnt death britain shot death take look 'll see means people shot death great britain i'm sure great comfort children stabbed , beaten burned death real question , crime rate england go , enacted gun control laws \? look rates first law 1920 , see effect frank crary cu boulder
crphilli hound dazixca ingr com \( ron phillips \) subject armed citizen april '93 nntp posting host hound reply crphilli hound dazixca ingr com organization intergraph electronics , mountain view , ca distribution usa lines 150 armed citizen mere presence firearm , without shot fired , prevents crime many instances , shown news reports sent armed citizen shooting usually justified crime constitutes immediate , imminent threat life limb , circumstances , property accounts sent nra members anyone free quote reproduce retired las vegas deputy police chief larry initially tried defend steering wheel bar lock criminal attacked car intruder , pulled pistol fired several times , wounding attacker stopping incident citizen defending , police official said \( review journal , las vegas , , 11 11 92 \) pair robbers armed sawed shotgun handguns took day 's receipts brooklyn owner martinez made getaway , martinez grabbed registered 12 gauge shotgun gave chase one fired , martinez returned three blasts , slightly wounding assailants fled sought medical attention \( , long island , n , 01 05 93 \) sign posted door roman shop reads owners property armed highly skilled protect life , liberty property criminal attack apparently , pair robbers n't pause read threatened wife oxnard , calif , convenience store hearing scream , grabbed 38 , ran front store shot masked armed men , killing one criminal \( times , los angeles , calif , 12 04 92 \) anne marie sullivan portland , , home one morning heard front door crash jumped shower time see man entering home running bedroom , sullivan retrieved boyfriend 's pistol fired two shots , wounding intruder dead man lengthy police prison record \( , portland , , 01 07 93 \) mike would let two robbers burst birmingham , ala , barber shop keep money 75 year old retired teacher unwilling surrender life intruders ordered , shop owner , another man lie floor , pulled pistol shot men head , killing one felt sure going three dead people think divine help , said \( sunday advertiser , montgomery , ala , 01 03 93 \) believing elderly harvey , ill , couple would easy prey , knife wielding home invader instead met death 76 year old three rounds semi automatic pistol police said dead man charged several times couple 's home \( star , chicago heights , ill , 01 07 93 \) criminal 's profile scheduled appear america 's wanted , shot fame abruptly canceled , fla , service station clerk michigan prison walked station announced robbery instead cash , got bullets head chest station clerk gary mcvey police said mcvey acted self defense would face charges \( sun sentinel , ft lauderdale , fla , 12 04 92 \) , conn , oil delivery man handed dollars thug , apparently take , turned gun victim demanded money instead cash , instead pulled pistol fired , wounding police said dead man held nearby market fatal incident \( courant , hartford , conn , 01 13 93 \) repeated san marcos , calif , home , joan vessel , 64 , ready 38 cordless phone heard glass breaking one afternoon found two teenagers attempting get , vessel fired warning shot heads , marched front yard called police \( times advocate , , calif , 12 25 92 \) angry auto insurance canceled , client used brass knuckles take brandon , fla , agent steven taylor assailant walked office , taylor grabbed pistol kept held former client gun point police arrived \( tribune , tampa , fla , 01 14 93 \) one evening , pa , office , jim awakened barking dog sitting amazement , watched two men smashed office window , reached grabbed one hunting rifles reaching pistol desk , fired several shots , apparently wounding one , putting flight \( times leader , wilkes barre , pa , 12 09 92 \) trying pair shoes act criminal pulled knife demanded money man advanced , flint , mich , owner drew pistol fired , critically wounding would \( journal , flint , mich , 01 13 93 \) disarmed pistol whipped struggling pair shotgun toting thugs , brooklyn , n , pharmacist continued fighting managed retrieve second also licensed hidden pistol firing three times , killed one assailants fled empty handed \( daily news , new york , n , 01 18 93 \) ron phillips crphilli hound dazixca ingr com senior customer engineer intergraph electronics 381 east evelyn avenue voice \( 415 \) 691 6473 mountain view , ca 94041 fax \( 415 \) 691 0350
pyron skndiv dseg ti com \( dillon pyron \) subject founding father questions lines 35 nntp posting host skndiv dseg ti com reply pyron skndiv dseg ti com organization ti dseg vax support article 1993apr5 eagle lerc nasa gov , pspod bigbird lerc nasa gov \( steve podleski \) writes arc cco caltech edu \( aaron ray clements \) writes n't one making comment '88 george born silver foot mouth \? sounds like another damn politician ai n't like old days texas anymore politicians may corrupt , least 'd take stand \( apologies exceptions think \) news house may already two thirds majority , opposition concern image \( 's even said publicly \) may matter people expect texans congressmen act n j republicans \? \( likely \) veto proof majority house senate , unfortunately , different story lt gov vowed bill voted , power addition , senate much smaller , readily manipulated body ther hand , semi automatic ban likely live , least fifty per cent house currently opposes , far bill order senate \( believe addressed ccw bill \) thought tx political science class waste time ! dillon pyron opinions expressed ti dseg lewisville vax support sender unless otherwise stated \( 214 \) 462 3556 \( i'm \) \( 214 \) 492 4656 \( i'm home \) god gave us weather would n't complain pyron skndiv dseg ti com things padi dm 54909
pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) subject gun control \( 're mad hell tv news \) article martha 1993apr6 organization university tennessee division continuing education lines 46 article ecf magpie linknet com manes magpie linknet com \( steve manes \) writes hambidge bms com wrote article c6 magpie linknet com , manes magpie linknet com \( steve manes \) writes rate per capita rate uk dangerous though may less likely killed handgun , average individual citizen uk twice likely killed whatever means average swiss would feel better killed means handgun \? would n't absurd argument switzerland one fifth size uk one eigth many people therefore given point swiss soil likely crow bait importantly , 4x likely killed next stranger approaching swiss street uk betraying lack understanding rate versus total number rates expressed , often , 100 , 000 population therefore , place 10 deaths population 100 , 000 , rate would 10 100 , 000 place 50 deaths population 1 , 000 , 000 would hav rate 5 100 , 000 former higher rate , latter higher total less likely die latter simple enuff \? chrissakes , take calculator work numbers 've preformatted make easier handgun homicides population switzerland 24 6 , 350 , 000 uk 8 55 , 670 , 000 tell switzerland safer liberal handgun law uk without rate total number choice want talk less likely get killed handgun 'd point safer includes things simply handguns , ca n't conclude safer ignoring somebody 's got total homicide rates david veal univ tenn div cont education info services group pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu \( mail veal utkvm1 utk edu bounce \) taxes benefit taxed lazarus long
pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) subject gun control \( 're mad hell tv news \) article martha 1993apr6 organization university tennessee division continuing education lines 47 article magpie linknet com manes magpie linknet com \( steve manes \) writes frank crary \( fcrary ucsu colorado edu \) wrote 's well good , refering , ones involving handguns \( fixation death shooting , somehow worse death stabbing \? \) relevance homicides debate \? think gun control advocates saying get rid handguns live homicide free world \? relevance 've got x homicides reduce number gun homicides group , x n't decrease significant amount , made improvement , improvement worth 've paid \? issue guns , baseball bats even simpleton knows stands better chance surviving attack baseball bat certainly outrunning bat wielding assailant baseball bat tenth likely kill victim gun , comfort tenth \? knives , see earlier post 'd much rather face knife gun , thanks 've faced knife damn annoyed n't gun statistics world n't change fact interested cutting fortunately , best defense knife n't another knife anyone trained unarmed self defense wo n't much problem disarming knife assailant untrained knife assault \( probably means 99 9 knife assailants \) anyone trained self defense unarmed self defense n't everyone 's , requires substantially training safe effective firearm requires physical proximity thus greater threat victim , primary problem stun guns actually touch assailant unless 're good , large , stronger assailant simply ignore blows long enough david veal univ tenn div cont education info services group pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu
fcrary ucsu colorado edu \( frank crary \) subject usual nntp posting host ucsu colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 77 article viking ponderous cc iastate edu viking iastate edu \( dan sorenson \) writes yes , pro gun , yes , disagree statement nuclear weapons dangerous radioactive decay plutonium uranium , well weapon , tends somewhat dangerous living things \( say neutron flux \? \) say , get background radiation living denver office building standing next power reactor full power standing next nuclear warhead armed \? look shielding dictionary n't need six feet lead make decent shielding dead skin cell layer excellent job alpha particles , neutrons slowed mere water think 75 \? whatever neutrons hit good chance absorbing neutron becoming radioactive mostly , means water turning \( harmless \) heavy water neutrons would also hit bones , resulting , would remain body decades think unshielded nuclear warhead could reasonably considered public health hazard shielded warhead , think fair amount required remain safely shielded \( e g storage dry , temperature regulated facility , etc \) private ownership unregulated , think single individual must able keep weapon , keep safe condition random private citizen could properly keep , maintain store nuclear weapon , regulation clearly appropriate plus things self defense purposes 's kinda hard justify use militia weapon best meant battlefield use \( low yield weapons \) worst industrial target \( translation cities population centers \) militia job overthrow illegal government , indeed useful weapons militia disagree purpose job militia defend community look american revolution example , militias , becoming independent , repressive government n't overthrow , communities \( canada england , example \) n't defend still old regime role militia offensive , go destroy repressive governments , nuclear weapons might appropriate jobs defensive , nuclear weapons n't suited also question personal collective arms second amendment definately protects ownership personal weapons \( since nature militia requires members provide arms \) n't clear covers arms certainly , members would supply \( example \) tank , could \( used effectively \) however , providing heavy weapons disproportionate control militia militias , envisioned , extremely democratic 50 members supported cause , 50 would respond muster , militia 's firepower would proportionately reduced militia firepower popular , therefore , linked small minority members supplied large fraction firepower \( form heavy weapons \) would change militia 's firepower would depend small minority , general public worse , minority would quite different general public \( least , would much richer \) result , think nature character militia requires member provide roughly equal share militia 's firepower personal weapons , equitable fraction squad 's heavier firepower frank crary cu boulder
bu008 cleveland freenet edu \( brandon ray \) subject statement sarah brady regarding texas state carrying concealed legislation article usenet reply bu008 cleveland freenet edu \( brandon ray \) organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 83 nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu previous article , nigel allen canrem com \( nigel allen \) says press release handgun control inc statement sarah brady regarding texas state carrying concealed legislation state desk contact susan whitmore handgun control inc , 202 898 washington , march 25 following statement sarah brady regarding texas state carrying concealed legislation handful lawmakers austin today told public safety less importance interests national rifle association action comes local , state federal law enforcement officials continue stand religious cult highlighted need tougher gun laws , weaker ones like carry concealed bill handful anti gun zealots telling public right self defense less importance interests handgun control , inc action comes local , state federal law enforcement officials continue assault branch davidian compound assault already resulted death one two year old child hands federal agents highlighted need citizens able defend children excesses government suggestion proponents bill help reduce crime distortion facts , best called crime fighting law resulted 16 percent increase violent crime state florida , never heard law enforcement officials bragging guns streets way reduce crime suggestion opponents bill increase crime distortion facts , best aggressive outreach officials central florida train arm women led dramatic drop level assault rape area course , program rare gem , many law enforcement officials apparently believe unarmed citizenry easier control , thus favor tighter restrictions vote today insult law enforcement officials putting lives line every day end standoff waco entire country knows easy individual bent destruction arsenal weapons texas lawmakers voted concealed handgun bill shown total disregard law officials front lines , families fallen vote today tribute good sense public large putting lives line every day go lawful affairs entire country knows vulnerable average citizen , attacks criminals armed assault police texas lawmakers voted concealed handgun bill shown total understanding innocent , law abiding citizens front lines , families fallen urge house representatives listen 70 percent texans oppose measure , reject ill conceived legislation urge house representatives pay attention needs constituents , ill conceived arguments ideological fanatics 30 nigel allen , toronto , ontario nigel allen canrem com canada remote systems toronto , ontario 416 629 7000 629 7044 ai n't propaganda fun \? opinions expressed author insightful , intelligent carefully thought therefore unlikely shared university iowa case western reserve university
cmort ncoast org \( christopher morton \) subject dividians black \? article ncoast reply cmort ncoast org \( christopher morton \) organization north coast public access nix , cleveland , oh lines 35 quoted 1993apr5 icd ab com kdw icd ab com \( kenneth whitehead \) cbnewsh cb att com \( brian leary \) writes questions media politically correct try asking people n't understand anyone would worry tactics used child molesting , drug dealing , gun running , cop killing religious wackos waco \( 1 \) questions people compound black guys ninja suits charging assault weapons grenades lapd would think \? charges essentially used operation move philadelphia years back , cops dropped incendiary bomb roof burned whole block move black group significant differences whereas branch davidians reported gotten along rather well neighbors , move people generally gone far way black neighbors , using loudspeakers hours night , keeping large piles garbage , promoting rat insect , allegedly threatening neighbors' children still sort questions regarding use force remain case 're like bunch educated , new york jewish aclu lawyers fighting eliminate school prayer public schools arkansas holly silva
hambidge bms com subject gun control \( 're mad hell tv news \) reply hambidge bms com organization bristol myers squibb distribution na lines 28 article ecf magpie linknet com , manes magpie linknet com \( steve manes \) writes chrissakes , take calculator work numbers 've preformatted make easier handgun homicides population switzerland 24 6 , 350 , 000 uk 8 55 , 670 , 000 tell switzerland safer liberal handgun law uk without rate total number choice please , pay attention , others , referring total homicide deaths , handgun homicides terms likely killed , \( regardless 's done , 'cause dead dead \) , uk higher homicide rate period likely killed uk switzerland murdered handgun , yes , switzerland higher rate , point , likely murdered uk sense , weapon irrelevant uk violent , period al standard disclaimer
hambidge bms com subject gun control \( 're mad hell tv news \) reply hambidge bms com organization bristol myers squibb distribution na lines 35 article magpie linknet com , manes magpie linknet com \( steve manes \) writes relevance homicides debate \? think gun control advocates saying get rid handguns live homicide free world \? sure make sound like issue guns , baseball bats even simpleton knows stands better chance surviving attack baseball bat certainly outrunning bat wielding assailant even simpleton knows baseball bat considered deadly weapon one cannot run away \( e g old , , even middle aged assailant younger \) , handgun effective means defense wo n't even fire shot 98 time knives , see earlier post 'd much rather face knife gun , thanks fortunately , best defense knife n't another knife anyone trained unarmed self defense wo n't much problem disarming knife assailant untrained knife assault \( probably means 99 9 knife assailants \) real \( lots \) , without knife , kick living sh people trained unarmed self defense majority people , gun effective form self defense al standard disclaimer
subject nazi cmay helium gas uug arizona edu \( christopher c may \) organization university arizona tucson , arizona lines 34 1993apr2 raid dell com dell com \( michael p \) writes also common american indian markings painted walls etc swastika bad \? want back personal anecdote grandparents navajo rug made 1920 's , received trade weaver living , arizona motif consists 4 large black , one corner 's , color scheme black , white , red casual glance would undoubtedly appear nazi relic kind yet owned ten years hitler national socialists came power recall , took 30 's , n't feel quite right putting back 60 's still draws comments n't know christopher c may u coll medicine '93 cmay ccit arizona edu part liberty teach children hate big government care freedom \? dreams may inspired , wishes promoted , war weapons made robert wise man 's understanding toward right hand , fool 's heart left ecclesiastes 10 2 christopher c may u coll medicine '93 cmay ccit arizona edu part liberty teach children hate big government
hays ssd intel com \( kirk hays \) subject nazi nntp posting host taos organization intel supercomputer systems division lines 38 article cmay helium , cmay helium gas uug arizona edu \( christopher c may \) writes 1993apr2 raid dell com dell com \( michael p \) writes also common american indian markings painted walls etc swastika bad \? want back personal anecdote grandparents navajo rug made 1920 's , received trade weaver living , arizona motif consists 4 large black , one corner 's , color scheme black , white , red casual glance would undoubtedly appear nazi relic kind yet owned ten years hitler national socialists came power recall , took 30 's , n't feel quite right putting back 60 's still draws comments n't know lived , played , worked near navajo reservation number years , confirm ancient pattern , found dated 800 1200 years old also , indians never stopped making pattern stopped selling nazi 's pre empted swastika note also indian versions use clockwise counter clockwise ob guns 's rare family n't rifle remember relocated us army , n't intend , hand , dislike weapons , experience perhaps hide better strangers kirk hays nra life , seventh generation thing necessary triumph evil good men nothing edmund burke \( 1797 \)
pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) subject national crime survey organization university tennessee division continuing education lines 19 well , dropped library yesterday , picked back copies national crime survey \( 1986 1990 \) effort examine said self defense firearm n't ground much way numbers yet , couple things jumped first 1986 1987 specify type weapon used self defense 1988 , 1989 , 1990 refer weapon second assaults rose 3 1986 1987 , w gun defenses reported fell almost 25 unless 's explanation , i'm tempted mark reporting problem , going ahead examination numbers would waste time anybody idea might cause real difference , reporting difference \? survey n't appear changed significantly 1986 1987 david veal univ tenn div cont education info services group pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu
dlb5404 tamuts tamu edu \( daryl biberdorf \) subject really believe \? organization texas university , college station lines 38 nntp posting host tamuts tamu edu article 1993apr5 3123 colorado edu ajteel dendrite cs colorado edu \( j teel \) writes q think hic et al really believe laws trying get passed good lying teeth trying disarm populace \? think hci people honestly believe passing gun control laws best interests public safety think \? used buy hci line freshman year \( 1987 \) , line made much sense people need guns able get , people need police elites unfortunately us , position highly emotional well thought never stop think hci 's position basically says non elite \( 's , folks ! \) second amendment absolutely nothing hunting legitimate uses \( excludes tyrannical governments defending police proven ca n't protect \) know end result , regardless intention , much easier subdue population un nwo definitely motivation many power , wonder degree planned vs duped every pro control person 've talked always left stumped simply argue facts gun control \( yet proven lower crime rates \) weapons terminology \( i'm expert explaining exactly evil semiautomatic weapon really works wonders \) personally found well reasoned arguments effective emotional pro control people trick get realize second amendment exists hunters oppressed daryl daryl biberdorf n5gjm biberdorf tamu edu sola gratia sola fide sola scriptura
dale access digex com \( dale farmer \) subject gun control proud canuck organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 27 nntp posting host access digex net x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 frank crary \( fcrary ucsu colorado edu \) wrote article hp col col hp com dduff col hp com \( dave duff \) writes swiss population \( well \) far larger think question , losing sleep million expert riflemen \? certainly could conquered switzerland , million armed militiamen \( especially mountainous area , effectiveness limited \) would made real pain question would ask , worth trouble \? difficult invasion , likely answer would certainly million riflemen \( opposed professional army ten twenty thousand , best country size switzerland could support \) , makes invasions difficult hitler invaded yugoslavia occupied mountainous portions sometimes patrolled , certainly control two major native factions opposing germans , basically useless germans \( production \) drain resources \( armored division couple infantry divisions \) memory correct , kind stuck allies accepted surrender \( think allies also let germans keep weapons self defense able get , away resistance factions memory , unreliable dale farmer
hambidge bms com subject believe gun control reply hambidge bms com organization bristol myers squibb lines 17 article apollo hp com , nelson p apollo hp com \( peter nelson \) writes cj195 cleveland freenet edu \( john w redelfs \) writes believe gun control \? believe gun control , assuming gun control mean always able hit target peter , clint eastwood line pink cadillac believe gun control 's gun around , wanna one controlling al standard disclaimer
hambidge bms com subject funded gun epidemic propaganda campaign commence reply hambidge bms com organization bristol myers squibb distribution usa lines 20 article magpie linknet com , manes magpie linknet com \( steve manes \) writes morris cat \( rats cbnewsc cb att com \) wrote well , neal knox firearms coalition points , full force anti gun ruling class , multi millions , polling organizations , schools , news media , entertainment media entertainment media force anti gun ruling class \? \? media 's made billions producing films television glorify guns gun users \? another anti gun media \? 've got kidding i'm afraid n't hypocritical lot al standard disclaimer
hambidge bms com subject gun control proud canuck reply hambidge bms com organization bristol myers squibb lines 28 article hp col col hp com , dduff col hp com \( dave duff \) writes anyone really believe swiss war within borders every adult male owns rifle \? i'm great swiss , 500 years peace turf zilch gun ownership picture hitler , poised border , losing sleep thousand expert rifleman \? riflemen also many hard bunkers mountains would nearly impossible penetrate tanks , would rather useless mountainous terrain hitler stayed switzerland swiss run money world gee , 's new one thought different ethnic group since hitler determined control , least , europe , think gave damn international monetary concerns \? also , 's lot gold swiss n't think new \? could , would taken switzerland however , crazy , n't totally stupid would cost hell lot take switzerland , guarantee invasion would successful probably figured \( generals , listening \) n't worth cost al standard disclaimer
hambidge bms com subject gun control reply hambidge bms com organization bristol myers squibb lines 94 article magpie linknet com , manes magpie linknet com \( steve manes \) writes would surprised n't contrary studies might add sloan endorsed police departments seattle vancouver considered references hand exhaustive study kind , even take issue essay 's conclusions k 's statistics speak largely without postulate , might add , vitamin c endorsed nobel panacea almost everything common cold cancer order compare violent crime trends , k compared violent crime categories , simple assault various mechanisms homicide wait minute k compare trends , would seen advent canada 's gun law effect homicides , total handgun without pre vs post comparison , one cannot speculate utility anything correlation , correlation prove causality point non whites commit handgun crimes whites dubious assumption conventional social theory economic status , color , primary motivating factor crime , especially violent crime 's point anyway , white people responsible gun owners \? assume 's coincidence fewer white people earning poverty line living neighborhoods violent crime occurs \? hold dismiss point demographics , ask socio economic demographics \? slick differences two cities permit regulations render two numbers strictly contrary , 's differences basis study easy availability legal handguns seattle much difficult restricted weapons permit required vancouver , correlation prove causality looking pre vs post data , canadian gun law effect cook measures suicides homicides firearms survey based estimate number legal illegal guns circulation within city sir , canadian , owned gun restrictive gun laws passed , decided hide rather turn , would answer truthfully question gun ownership someone calls , writes , asks street \? one problem surveys nobody answer incriminating question another people often tell think want , author misses core issue vancouver citizens prohibited purchasing handguns basis self defense n't choice matter mean vancouver citizens handguns \? think guns purchased beforehand , guns purchased purposes self defense , also used defense hmmm sounds like author might like bumper sticker reads guns n't kill people , black people kill people ! honestly , , backed zero evidence , zero studies even less common sense , n't worth considerable time must taken type assumptions look frighteningly close pseudo scientific studies white assholes love crap takes published statistics , twisted around attempt prove inherent criminal nature black people makes valid points demographic differences resort kind argument politically correct movement often uses stifle debate nice , real nice author 's essay contains 0 independent study upon base conclusions , strained , statistical discourse attempting blame seattle 's murder rate blacks one n't produce data order point flaws methodology conclusions another 's study , resort pc tactics al standard disclaimer
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject another nytimes yellow sheet editorial \( 4 4 93 \) organization stratus computer , inc lines 23 distribution world nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article gap caltech edu , arc cco caltech edu \( aaron ray clements \) writes thanks n r , f prohibited researching effectiveness using taggants explosives , taggants cheap technologically feasible microscopic additive would help investigators crime scenes like world trade center bombing trace explosives involved want man tell hell take explosives used wtc bombing , considering consensus seems explosive fertilizer based one proper counter claim forensic analysis wtc bomb means taggants would impossible semantic analysis nyt editorials means taggants difficulty cases persuaded bull consume taggants production either item cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
subject gun like american express card steiner jupiter cse utoledo edu \( jason 'think ! ' steiner \) nntp posting host jupiter cse utoledo edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 58 jason kratz \( u28037 uicvm uic edu \) writes pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) says jason kratz u28037 uicvm uic edu writes n't silly course police everything gangs plus 've got access national guard \( via governor \) things get rough 's tanks 've never seen play course , 've got rifles helicopters far fully automatic weapons , lot better armed want hit aim seems happening situation getting totally blown proportion post referring regular patrolman car cruising around city vs gang members course police access things mentioned use tanks time \? course n't 's point trying make every day go lunch always see cops coming majority see still carrying revolvers anything wrong revolver 're cop gang member couple automatics coat \( mean semi auto handguns \) 're going disadvantage even training \? think 're making assumptions might necessarily true personal choice would semi auto , revolvers effective , shooting range gang gang members practicing shooting actually practicing taking guns quick possible shooting target n't badly either , please \? sound shocked , hardly proves anything university cops \( state cops \) armed better chicago police seems state cops n't know originally david live live chicago see crap everyday news papers think situation tad different wait , n't chicago serious gun control \? , police need firepower first place \? \( sarcasm alert \) patrol cars 've seen around shotguns dash board imho , 's police need anything jason ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` ` , ` crystal wind storm , storm data , data ` , ` ` , ` life player 's , long run k ` , ` ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` steiner jupiter cse utoledo edu ` , ` , ` , `
cathy lance colostate edu \( cathy smith \) subject letter liberal colleague l neil smith distribution usa nntp posting host blanca lance colostate edu organization colorado state university , fort collins , co 80523 lines 147 posted cathy smith l neil smith letter liberal colleague note adrian name changed protect guilty author science fiction worked editor famous new york publishing house dear adrian i'm way behind schedule current book , reply note criticizing recent magazine interview gave generally attacking gun ownership necessarily consist mostly assertions 're free believe \( \) back evidence logic 've neither time energy present 've written fully topic future , 'll make sure get copies many arguments might make , futility danger self defense police \( see kates jan 10 , 1985 wall street journal \) real effect prohibition , shifting consumers newly outlawed handguns semiautomatic rifles items like sawed shotguns homemade bombs , 'll limit commenting newspaper clipping sent note first , freedom carry weapon choice natural , fundamental , inalienable human , individual , civil , constitutional right subject neither democratic process arguments grounded social utility second , publication latter day scientific study n't alter fact gun discussed interview annoying much process lying third , freedom carry weapon choice natural , fundamental , inalienable human , individual , civil , constitutional right subject neither democratic process arguments grounded social utility fourth , often happens things , study n't support gun original numerical contentions anyway , simply adds new layer spurious claims older body lies , omissions , distortions fifth , freedom carry weapon choice natural , fundamental , inalienable human , individual , civil , constitutional right subject neither democratic process arguments grounded social utility sixth , fact gun caught lying countless occasions \( carl , author right keep bear arms , even confessed publicly \) makes value present study dubious , say least seventh , freedom carry weapon choice natural , fundamental , inalienable human , individual , civil , constitutional right subject neither democratic process arguments grounded social utility eighth , given lifelong service federal bureaucrat \( mention cynical sophistication fiction \) , better aware people progress designing studies prove whatever want ability collect meaningful data case point might agree fact took another kind 20 30 years create studies proving pornography causes crime naive \( probably honest \) efforts 50s 60s clearly indicate contrary ninth , freedom carry weapon choice natural , fundamental , inalienable human , individual , civil , constitutional right subject neither democratic process arguments grounded social utility tenth , another reason doubt studies human behavior \( austrian school economics demonstrates \) far complex unpredictable quantified attempt create public policy based resulting pseudo information wrecking civilization eleventh , freedom carry weapon choice natural , fundamental , inalienable human , individual , civil , constitutional right subject neither democratic process arguments grounded social utility , study also worthless incorporates figures suicide , necessarily tragedy basically another individual right , sometimes social benefits anything , perhaps suicide intervention criminal offense thirteenth finally , national rifle association officials quoted article , whatever shortcomings \( many \) , correct instance study meaningless freedom carry weapon choice natural , fundamental , inalienable human , individual , civil , constitutional right subject neither democratic process arguments grounded social utility , adrian , even study valid , would n't deter lifelong personal objective seeing anyone weapon prefers carry however , whenever , wherever desires without asking anybody 's permission i'm assisted gun , whose invariably moves previously unarmed people go buy first gun still '68 gun control act , shooting fraternity viewed handguns \( incorrectly , turned \) inaccurate , ineffective toys probably n't six million whole country , thanks kennedy , metzenbaum , , ilk greatest sporting goods sales team probably manufacture least many every year fascinating datum handgun control , et al perfectly aware guess 'll ask real motives look gun making n't arcane difficult art \( way , 's easier make fully automatic weapon semiautomatic fact still obtain weapon preference , self loading pistol , thing keeps pursuing \) even difficult , already quarter billion firearms america , estimated half life 1000 years possibly stainless steel guns gonna around long time , adrian , whether like , paraphrase elmer keith , regardless law provides court decides , i'm always going armed always work see others , well bad news thousands perhaps even hundreds thousands come ca n't stopped passing laws , forced arm others secretly given practical alleged differences full automatics perhaps efficiently 's point \? l neil smith author probability broach , crystal empire , henry martyn , \( forthcoming \) lever action bbs \( 303 \) 493 6674 , fidonet 1 306 31 4 libertarian second amendment caucus nra life member opinions , course ,
jrm gnv ifas ufl edu subject ban firearms ! lines 40 article 1993apr14 sco com , allanh sco com \( allan j heim \) writes papresco undergrad math uwaterloo ca \( paul prescod \) drugs banned , please tell supply dry \? drugs easier manufacture , easier smuggle , easier hide comparison let 's use another example alcoholic beverages bottles whiskey larger , heavier , fragile bags drugs barrels kegs larger heavier still , difficult manipulate yet , lot people managed get rich smuggling booze country years prohibition demand , entire industry formed supply alcohol banned today , would much difficult manage large scale smuggling operation cops rank narrow notch military communications , intelligence gathering firepower similar vein , amount marijuana smuggled country greatly decreased value per pound low compared cocaine heroin 's simply worth risk , 's , reefer domestic less pressure domestic producer \( raids notwithstanding \) thus economical note though domestic reefer strong , small volume goes long way cannot make alcohol stronger 200 proof good dollar pound deal firearms tend fall low dollar pound area would economic smuggle production would local many people skill motivation assemble worthwhile firearms scratch high ranking crime figures could obtain imported uzis , average person , average thug , would lucky get zip gun would pay nose
scottj magic dml georgetown edu \( john l scott \) subject silly outdated bill \( koresh miranda \) organization j random misconfigured site x posted iamac 1 dml georgetown edu nntp posting host sol ctr columbia edu lines 86 wrote nice strawman indeed discussion whether tanks used sixties riots instead , whether tanks fired main guns one riots claim claim ludicrous awesley replied repeated told , context heard , supporting claim tanks indeed used detroit 67 issue never whether tanks used detroit 1967 whether fired main guns merely claim tanks used claimed fired main guns suppress sniper fire quite effective continue back away claim defend something else nobody disputing awesley went spent minutes library today found computer n't card catalog anyway , took 10 minutes find nightmare detroit , rebellion 's victims sauter hines , page 133 , telling death , age 4 tank fired upon snipers turned direction shots came fifty caliber machine gun mounted tank fire buildings short round front buildings , tank guns spit , tearing apart huge holes side apartment well , 's main gun well , 's main gun gee , 's entire point going admit wrong \? wrote see pictures tanks firing main guns \? see pictures buildings damaged shells \? read reports tank fire \? 'll bet dollar wo n't take second hand accounts old national guard shooting shit convince tanks shelled american cities sixties awesley replied well , bothered read , would n't take long find reports tank fire although necessarily main guns never read tanks firing main guns detroit '67 riots simply way event could taken place without common knowledge even 26 years later american military firing shells tanks american cities blacks would big news awesley goes also read troops using grenade launchers fire fragmentary grenades \? doubt well fire concussion grenades \? perhaps fire tear gas \? certainly would perfectly willing let us believe fired , would n't , since makes claim seem plausible n't expect convince 'll open mind eyes actually little research convinced one way let know find already know found nothing claimed marines used f 4s launch rockets buildings trenton , new jersey would believe \? would suspend judgment chance research \? would bullshit filters kick \? tanks fired main guns detroit , people would screaming past two half decades would know unless also claim national guard managed cover mind open enough believe , well , good prefer live reality reality , find hard believe tanks even shells , much less fired john l scott
vincent cad gatech edu \( vincent fox \) subject gun like american express card organization deep thirteen , institute lines 90 distribution usa nntp posting host cae cad gatech edu 93104 173826u28037 uicvm uic edu jason kratz u28037 uicvm uic edu writes deleted far fully automatic weapons , lot better armed want hit aim seems happening situation getting totally blown proportion post referring regular patrolman car cruising around city vs gang members course police access things mentioned use tanks time \? course n't 's point trying make every day go lunch always see cops coming majority see still carrying revolvers anything wrong revolver 're cop gang member couple automatics coat \( mean semi auto handguns \) 're going disadvantage even training shooting range gang gang members practicing shooting actually practicing taking guns quick possible shooting target n't badly either university cops \( state cops \) armed better chicago police seems state cops define armed better go shoot revolver semi auto like colt 45 one fires faster \? nope aside faster rate fire usually desirable sure makes guys duck cover , trying hitting anything thompson hose mode military limiting 's 16 3 round burst fire simple semi auto would better , troops like able rock roll even wasteful ammo \( something often short supply enemy plentiful \) revolver equally capable semi auto caliber revolver also advantage pull trigger double action revolver \( almost \) hand cocked first , fire merely pulling trigger misfire revolver merely means must pull trigger rotate next round revolver carried 6th chamber empty hammer maximum safety , still drawn fired easy motion , even one handed revolver allow almost fast magazines semi autos faster depending users misfire semi auto require clear jammed shell first , time spent fatal vital second often lost realize hey , 's jammed ! starting anything clearing semi autos must slide worked chamber first round cock hammer police carry semi autos chamber loaded hammer cocked , safety engaged consider safe however must trade safety get speed employment revolver double action semi autos , complexity operation many requires training police departments switched glocks , started quietly switching many officers back old revolvers many accidents , partly due poor training received glocks require rocket scientists , cops baffled something complex timer vcr anyone goes anyone saying criminals obviously police n't know nothing firearms turn cops hunter pay attention seek say semi autos junk merely assuming better jobs stupid cop revolver hip shotgun rack equipped anything short riot gun control hitting aim whip wonder nine fire real fast may find n't hit anything good controlled fire revolver likely get hit 9mm beretta consider inferior carry weapon something like ruger security six revolver n't hit i'm aiming first 5 shots , something quite seriously wrong somewheres might like backup capacity extra shots certain cases , overwhelmingly shots fired criminal encounters less 5 crooks overwhelmingly use crime \? nice simple 38 revolvers police often use well actually police prefer much 357 magnum , anyway n't flame , prefer semi autos things introduce unneccessary complications something nerve encounter lone criminal everything gone planned , everything would perfect batf spokesperson cnn 3 2 93 , regarding failed raid attempt tx
vincent cad gatech edu \( vincent fox \) subject gun like american express card organization deep thirteen , institute lines 22 distribution usa nntp posting host cae cad gatech edu 93104 173826u28037 uicvm uic edu jason kratz u28037 uicvm uic edu writes deleted university cops \( state cops \) armed better chicago police seems state cops n't know originally david live live chicago see crap everyday news papers think situation tad different crap , ridiculous assertions uzis mowing cops right left \? assertions dialing 911 proper option available law abiding citizens \? factoid 56 cops killed whole country last year around 100 early '80s wow , real explosion cop killings eh \? \) everything gone planned , everything would perfect batf spokesperson cnn 3 2 93 , regarding failed raid attempt tx
pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) subject gun like american express card lines 53 organization university tennessee division continuing education distribution usa article cae cad gatech edu vincent cad gatech edu \( vincent fox \) writes 93104 173826u28037 uicvm uic edu jason kratz u28037 uicvm uic edu writes deleted university cops \( state cops \) armed better chicago police seems state cops n't know originally david live live chicago see crap everyday news papers think situation tad different crap , ridiculous assertions uzis mowing cops right left \? assertions dialing 911 proper option available law abiding citizens \? factoid 56 cops killed whole country last year around 100 early '80s wow , real explosion cop killings eh \? \) well , 're going discuss police officer america today fbi lists 132 police officers killed \( accidentally \) 1990 's apparently everybody levels year officers killed rate 100 , 000 police officers 1982 164 47 6 1983 152 40 2 1984 147 39 4 1985 148 37 9 1986 133 34 9 1987 148 39 0 1988 155 41 9 1989 145 38 1 1990 132 32 0 includes one officer islands includes one officer islands includes one officer two foreign locations includes one officer american two foreign countries includes one officer one federal officer killed god , love information age ! \) david veal univ tenn div cont education info services group pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu still remember way laughed , day pushed elevator shaft i'm beginning think n't love anymore weird al
pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) subject ban firearms ! lines 89 organization university tennessee division continuing education article 1993apr14 184448 2331 gnv ifas ufl edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes article 1993apr14 sco com , allanh sco com \( allan j heim \) writes papresco undergrad math uwaterloo ca \( paul prescod \) drugs banned , please tell supply dry \? drugs easier manufacture , easier smuggle , easier hide comparison let 's use another example alcoholic beverages bottles whiskey larger , heavier , fragile bags drugs barrels kegs larger heavier still , difficult manipulate yet , lot people managed get rich smuggling booze country years prohibition demand , entire industry formed supply alcohol banned today , would much difficult manage large scale smuggling operation cops rank narrow notch military communications , intelligence gathering firepower similar vein , amount marijuana smuggled country greatly decreased value per pound low compared cocaine heroin 's simply worth risk , 's , reefer domestic less pressure domestic producer \( raids notwithstanding \) thus economical 's question marijuana domestic producing economical , would expect imported \? note though domestic reefer strong , small volume goes long way cannot make alcohol stronger 200 proof good dollar pound deal yet done done quite successfully number years somebody thought worth risk firearms tend fall low dollar pound area would economic smuggle assumption low dollar pound area sufficiently low make gun running base \? given smuggling channels already established , given economies scale , would really add significantly expense start smuggling firearms , especially considering would less hazardous \( terms getting caught \) drugs \? production would local jump case , define local 's big country many people skill motivation assemble worthwhile firearms scratch high ranking crime figures could obtain imported uzis , average person , average thug , would lucky get zip gun would pay nose wow , gotta love speculation posted , import billions upon billions raw across mexican border ships come u every day full stuff customs n't even extra advantage able 'd willing wager handguns would worth raw ore , 're virtually guaranteed get past customs , 'd hand search every hold every ship came 's simply matter much money worth , much money worth goods , based likelihood caught less money drugs , also safer thing smuggle david veal univ tenn div cont education info services group pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu still remember way laughed , day pushed elevator shaft i'm beginning think n't love anymore weird al
34aej7d cmuvm bitnet subject 'pill' deer hunting distribution usa cae cad gatech edu lines 27 article cae cad gatech edu , vincent cad gatech edu \( vincent fox \) says measure prevent evil bambi killers hunting , another fight interference nature measure would also another benefit would relieve various states thorny problem hundreds millions dollars hunters pour economy annually i'm sure , attain sure , humane , liberal \( mention politically \) correct goal , environmental animal rights groups individuals supporting measure would willing add names list supporters seeking increased taxation replace lost revenues equally confident entities , given noteworthy record area social responsibility respect private property , would feel morally ethically bound raise necessary funds acquire hundreds thousands land held private hands solely use private hunting preserves \( \) less would place groups individuals ethically untenable \( say nothing environmentally politically incorrect \) position logging subsequent development former private hunting lands , would longer useable , benefit , \( \) capacity w k gorman
holland cs colostate edu \( douglas craig holland \) subject non lethal alternatives handguns \? nntp posting host beethoven cs colostate edu organization colorado state university , computer science department keywords handgun mace pepper spray taser tasp phaser lines 102 article 1993apr13 watson ibm com mjp vnet ibm com \( michael j phelps \) writes article 681 netcom com , shepard netcom com \( mark shepard \) writes effective personal defense products like mace , pepper spray , non lethal stun devices compared handguns \? statistics 's types use \? products seem attractive compared handguns , non lethal , forgiving accident mistakes wrongful shooting \( case \) , allow justice system deal criminal \( rather criminals simply dead , certain feel seems bother anti gun people \) forgiving nature also side allows criminal use w assault deadly weapon charge also lethal dangerous side effects people violent reactions mace pepper sprays stun guns harm people weak hearts people suffered eye damage mace stuff available less concentrated used spray flammable arguments see non lethal weapons compared handguns lack range , lack stopping power effectiveness , limited ammo true \? cost \? sprays using spray based eg mace , pepper bound affect anyone else room \( like victim \) due nature stuff using sprays outdoors sort breeze effectiveness reading various articles , appears mace , especially mace available citizens , pretty ineffective people influence drugs alcohol pepper spray appears effective , inherent spray delivery problem still appear anything better distraction might buy time run like hell consider running like hell n't always viable solution example , dressed boots dressed sneakers might tough time outrunning ! stun guns require contact skin max effectiveness jacket like leather one mitigate effectiveness user must extremely close puts considerable risk injury user must keep stun gun contact non negligible period time pulled consider problem small women would keeping stun gun contact average size man length time w sustaining serious injury anti gun groups suggested non lethal weapons , counter pro gun argument people left defenseless \? n't heard generally contend people n't need n't able defend , legal restrictions licensing apply non lethal devices \? civilian ownership stun guns frequently illegal ny sprays also illegal states believe , still illegal ny , although half state thinks legal ! believe ny almost legalized heard reason n't due feel sprays better nothing , user believe hype 'll drop 'em tracks stuff uses diversion n l marks mark shepard shepard netcom com valley , ca michael phelps , \( external \) mjp vnet ibm com \( internal \) mjp bwa kgn ibm com mjp \( last least disclaimer \) opinions mine guns non lethal bullets , like rubber plastic bullets would work well stopping attack \? doug holland
betz gozer idbsu edu \( andrew betz \) subject high power assault guns nntp posting host gozer organization sigsauer fan club lines 12 article 1993apr14 stortek com vojak icebucket stortek com \( bill vojak \) writes alaska 1 uzi , 1 20 rnd magazine , 1 big polar bear 'd make , 1 big , mad , hungry cubs nearby polar bear drew betz gozer idbsu edu brought terminal free state idaho outlaw rights , outlaws rights spook fodder fema , nsa , clinton , gore , insurrection , nsc , semtex , neptunium , terrorist , cia , mi5 , mi6 , kgb , deuterium
organization university illinois chicago , academic computer center jason kratz u28037 uicvm uic edu subject gun like american express card 93104 173826u28037 pa146008 711 utkvm1 utk edu lines 79 article pa146008 711 utkvm1 utk edu , pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) says stuff deleted seems happening situation getting totally blown proportion post referring regular patrolman car cruising around city vs gang members course police access things mentioned use tanks time \? course n't 's point trying make every day go lunch always see cops coming majority see still carrying revolvers anything wrong revolver 're cop gang member couple automatics coat \( mean semi auto handguns \) 're going disadvantage even training david arms race fallacy somehow bigger guns make individual safer problem corresponding level offensive power automatic level defense increase problem 's sort lethality threshold get past 're talking degree regardless cops 's really reason average beat cop anything bigger pistol personal weapon maybe rifle shotgun cruiser mean , think carrying monster pistol sub machinegun n't make cop less wounded somebody shoots lot police switched semi automatics , better reliable weapons , stopping power , 's point diminishing returns , good point cares kind gun 've got 're lying ground dead far automatics go , gang member carrying around couple automatics \( incredible rarity \) going far menace innocent anything might aim one auto hard enough control anybody could control two going get police officer regardless police officer armed stuff deleted mostly mine question would police officer gain sub machinegun similar personal weapon already n't 9mm semi automatic pistol \? n't see police around full auto fire , experience police officers \( stats regarding many police officers get killed cops \) made feel would good idea precise fire far preferable using bigger guns standard sufficient stopping power properly applied powerful weapons would make likelihood death higher without really giving police significantly options another good point well taken seems lots lead flying \( either cops gangs \) someone innocent always gets caught crossfire david veal univ tenn div cont education info services group pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu still remember way laughed , day pushed elevator shaft i'm beginning think n't love anymore weird al points made well taken guess mindset makes better obviously correct mindset take discussion think situation little carefully see point exactly david wholeheartedly \( sp \? \) agree like said i'm assuming bullets bigger bullets better though want state pro gun individual believe gun control really viable option united states regardless drivel spout \) jason
organization university illinois chicago , academic computer center jason kratz u28037 uicvm uic edu subject gun like american express card distribution usa 93103 uic cae cad gatech edu lines 73 article cae cad gatech edu , vincent cad gatech edu \( vincent fox \) says stuff deleted mine define armed better go shoot revolver semi auto like colt 45 one fires faster \? nope aside faster rate fire usually desirable sure makes guys duck cover , trying hitting anything thompson hose mode military limiting 's 16 aw come worked great 1920 's \( movie version anyways \) \) 3 round burst fire simple semi auto would better , troops like able rock roll even wasteful ammo \( something often short supply enemy plentiful \) revolver equally capable semi auto caliber stuff deleted revolvers good semi autos points well taken things n't considered really familiar enough handguns police departments switched glocks , started quietly switching many officers back old revolvers many accidents , partly due poor training received glocks require rocket scientists , cops baffled something complex timer vcr hell , glock last thing switched thing know glock lack real safety sure little thing trigger n't great safety anyone goes anyone saying criminals obviously police n't know nothing firearms turn cops hunter pay attention seek say semi autos junk merely assuming better jobs stupid cop revolver hip shotgun rack equipped anything short riot actually n't watch shows \) 're right \( least partially \) n't know much handguns i'm familiar rifles gun control hitting aim whip wonder nine fire real fast may find n't hit anything good controlled fire revolver likely get hit 9mm beretta consider inferior carry weapon something like ruger security six revolver n't hit i'm aiming first 5 shots , something quite seriously wrong somewheres might like backup capacity extra shots certain cases , overwhelmingly shots fired criminal encounters less 5 crooks overwhelmingly use crime \? nice simple 38 revolvers police often use well actually police prefer much 357 magnum , anyway n't flame , prefer semi autos things introduce unneccessary complications something nerve encounter lone criminal everything gone planned , everything would perfect batf spokesperson cnn 3 2 93 , regarding failed raid attempt tx flames points well taken guess still lot learn thanks discussion already \) guess assume many things like bullets better sort thing course know happens assume \) jason
subject non lethal alternatives handguns \? steiner jupiter cse utoledo edu \( jason 'think ! ' steiner \) nntp posting host jupiter cse utoledo edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 16 douglas craig holland \( holland cs colostate edu \) writes crap deleted trim articles ! guns non lethal bullets , like rubber plastic bullets would work well stopping attack \? last heard , non lethal bit misnomer things jason ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` ` , ` democrat give us money 'll solve problems ` , ` ` , ` republican give us money 'll ignore problems ` , ` ` , ` libertarian keep money solve problems ` , ` ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` steiner jupiter cse utoledo edu ` , ` , ` , `
sserve cc adfa oz au \( geoff miller \) subject 'pill' deer hunting organization australian defence force academy , canberra , australia lines 61 jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes promising field experiments done year several areas country relating chemical contraceptive deer preliminary data suggests cost effective humane method preventing population preliminary data regarding similar research kangaroo australia way support cost effectiveness approach may cost effective deer quietly overlook fact net cost state deer hunting negative \( e profit \) \( majority \) hunters pay cost comparisons probably done assuming people employed animals , fact case figure people going pay implant contraceptive pellets spread \? fair bit discussion recently , kangaroo population grounds governor general 's residence reached plague proportions despite rampant animal , effective method controlling population still considered controlled shooting , allow hunting prevent population deer bear whatever \? sorry , blood lust gone wind mass production stuff begins , animal populations easily managed without shot fired leaves fact people like go woods kill things people take satisfaction \( imho , legitimate satisfaction \) eating food pleasure derived hunting get eating fruit vegetables grown garden \( , general , game meat probably much unpleasant chemicals buy butcher supermarket \) may motivation , cannot justified expect like organizations use argument get hunting banned period cannot justified guess mean personally n't see justification fine makes opinion important \? legitimate hunting , papers filled stories senseless murders guess wo n't chance hell building case rkba withstand either public opinion , necessity scientific scrutiny n't give silent majority wants guns crap votes rkba , rkba certainly last point correct politicians n't see votes opposing stupid legislation developing supporting measures might effective reducing incidence violent crime wo n't things geoff miller \( g miller adfa edu au \) computer centre , australian defence force academy
ron hpfcso fc hp com \( ron miller \) subject boston gun buy back organization hewlett packard , fort collins , co , usa lines 19 interlan interlan com \( mark \) rm short thought ask question authorities sponsors buyback programs whether check stolen weapons answer , 's total amnesty please note 50 given firearm , boston cash , money orders much amnesty get leave paper trail behind \? latest case denver , giving away tickets denver basketball game traceable money order \? \( n't know n't used one 20 years \) even issue weapons n't checked stolen \? ron
viking iastate edu \( dan sorenson \) subject gun like american express card organization iowa state university , ames ia lines 125 thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio writes observations naive norwegian yup , said admire honesty \) 1 \) guns made kill people , shoot target something macho stamps collect fire 22 , come back talk us 're letting ignorance possibly fear cloud thinking either , sour grapes beat olympic shooting events funny , 'd think would natural sport \) 2 \) easy kill injure someone gun knife bat \( baseball \) precisely makes best method defense citizenry everybody time train , know , reason prey others seem free time extend bit , need certain level competence beat another range weapon getting face weapon winning much difficult , requires training time average citizen 've spent years practicing sword take common person armed one \( though self defense n't reason one \) kid sister would even chance beating , gun vs gun , month training makes firearms much better , eyes 3 \) 's wise compare two completely different countries like usa , let 's say , island issues like crime violence excellent point perhaps n't naive \? 4 \) yes , problem people committing crimes , tools beeing used , 1 \) taken taken consideration respect \? though quite wrong , let 's make blanket statement weapons general taken consideration call use assault , assault deadly weapon , assault intent kill , attempted murder , whole host others , tack extra prison time strict gun legislation norway , recently possible 18 years buy shotgun shotguns used mainly hunting norway \( \) , easy accuire one , used gun crimes norway suspect weapon available conquered land \( among others \) full millenia thought , shortly thereafter weapons n't quite common suspect world wars made difference , since times emergency weapons tend turned donated needy causes i'm curious , though , weapons used crimes bought shortly crime , aquired means \? requirements registering shotgun \? unbelievable use guns crime fell new law wearing long knives public , allowed \? \? come honest erik 's used swords ! 's slightly used short sword , battlefield supremacy weapon eleventh century ! 39 95 trade easy financing ! sorry , could n't resist guys still long knives , really problem \? , scandinavian , problems understand \( americans \) liberal view guns violence nudity sex try showing bare breast tv violence murder i'm gets \( yes , i'm couple generations \) used feared warriors planet mere millenia ago , yet seem spend time sitting bit maybe bit time , homogeneous culture , become civilized \? yes , know little american history , civil human right assault gun home handgun car \? \? yes 're damned violent , partially believe homogeneous culture n't identify americans first foremost i'm rather proud norwegian danish heritage , whereas suspect could n't care less 2 welsh blood thanks raid ireland back 1055 \? time scale homogeneous culture important equally important basic philosophical difference personal versus collective good america , individual important masses personal liberties prized , sadly , changing late , trust notice call freedom makes laws restrict individuals little collective benefit hateful americans 'd hazard guess , america less interested freedom personal liberty interested collective good never would sent armed forces anywhere one poor effect culture 're looking quite easy identify small segment population grandmother tells discriminated back denmark spoke low dane , whereas others spoke high dane shortly world war ii , remember , low dane abolished one common dialect cannot fathom minor thing problem , even obvious means identifying outsider bad english fault , 's probably keyboard software quality subtext tv take heart , better 90 gets posted native speakers helpful hints educational system \? people annoying tendency drop school sell drugs \) kind name thomas parsli \? , use great grandfather 's changed christian 's great one getting think 's changed n't think needs anymore \) dan sorenson , dod 1066 z1dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu censors read , say n't blame usenet post exotic , distant machines meet exciting , unusual people flame
viking iastate edu \( dan sorenson \) subject gun talk legislative update states keywords gun talk , ila organization iowa state university , ames ia distribution usa lines 15 lvc cbnews cb att com \( larry cipriani \) writes iowa firearm related bills dead senate file 303 dealing duty police officers carrying concealed remains viable power word processor stamp work fact around state rep generally lives nine miles constituent n't hurt , either dan sorenson , dod 1066 z1dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu censors read , say n't blame usenet post exotic , distant machines meet exciting , unusual people flame
andy sail stanford edu \( andy freeman \) subject silly outdated bill \( koresh miranda \) organization computer science department , stanford university lines 52 article vela acs oakland edu awesley vela acs oakland edu \( awesley \) writes article 1993apr14 csd newshost stanford edu andy sail stanford edu \( andy freeman \) writes since sniper fire , nothing equally effective , yelling stop course , one wants credit tanks stopping non existent sniper fire , might well credit stopping invasion see firearms , violence civil disorders \( sri \) incidents new pattern violence \( brandeis university 's center study violence \) precisely one verified sniper 67 riots , drunk firing pistol window actually , one confirmed sniper die detroit , according sauter hines , nightmare detroit , rebellion 's sources sauter hines use \? congressional hearings later , newspaper folk admitted reports completely wrong \( excuses understandable , others amount gross negligence 's lied \) far know , never followup \? people snipers shoot firemen , shooting snipers ca n't help blowing big holes buildings n't contain sniper worrying travelling sniper squads complete waste time interesting curious , believe tanks blow big holes buildings detroit 67 \? n't relevant knowledge counter sniper tactics govt big war toys 's 've commented could n't accomplished , matter nope sniper fire coming police guard positions guard certainly needed learn n't agree idea snipers p 121 sauter hines despite force national guard alliance army troops , snipers stop snipers boldly lay siege fifth police station took pot shots seventh firemen constant harassment snipers fired half closed darkened windows high apartment buildings roof tops detroit , 60s 's newspaper copy admitted later wrong andy
jrm gnv ifas ufl edu subject 'pill' deer hunting lines 117 article pa146008 710 utkvm1 utk edu , pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) writes article 1993apr14 gnv ifas ufl edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes article 1993apr14 11363 synapse bms com , hambidge bms com writes self defense valid reason rkba vast majority get life without ever , use display firearm might missed u news world report excerpt posted fairly consistant polls , finding approximately 40 50 households least one firearm translates individual ownership questionable , think 's fairly safe say 're wrong vast majority ok near majority actually firearms , still claim vast majority never needs use even threaten anyone right lucky \? either case , means threat country rather low besides , means self protection effective firearms please name key phrase theories nice , practicality important taser \( chose outlawed virtually everywhere \) effective gun , optimal conditions dealing absolute average think weapons brain never said alternative means self protection involved hardware 'good' neighborhoods 'good' \? n't every person armed teeth \( 1 \) attitude \( 2 \) cooperation 'good' neighborhoods , residents make aware neighbors notice strangers lurking around 'good' neighborhoods form groups like increase effect , relative effectiveness police arrested , good neighbors step say that's one officer ! robbing mr house short , alternative firepower gangs least manifestation social cooperative replace lead flesh flesh makes better invite block party freedoms rights dependent public opinion , necessity , scientific scrutiny new planet \? everything dependent either public political opinion , usually political imagine inalienable 'rights' somehow wired vast cold cosmos purest egotism dangerous delusion real sense everything government based public approval , reason particular time n't public servants commonly trees legality legitimacy also matter government 's charter makes rule , government violates , violated basis existance enforcement becomes matter solely force arms oliver north man positively worshiped many american quarters big ron set secret government sorts severely illegal deeds kind stuff would twenty life , yet walks free bs happens time fact , happens much one really cares anymore non issue legality non issue long get bones mtv , gives rats ass \? arguments rkba withstand scientific scrutiny n't like many things , issue one perception rather boring statistics excuse , sir , one suggesting arguments rkba would stand scientific scrutiny claimed one interested statistical aspects argument pure emotion , like abortion issue every time young innocent gunned drive , every time kid murdered jacket , every time store clerk executed three dollars change , every time moron kills wife took last beer fridge , every time someone hears night rkba dies emotion hard argue must done anyway emotion wrong argue away ca n't win stats clearly behind firearms yesterday claimed n't behind protection factor strongly outweigh mindless mayhem factor operating assumption conditions absolutely govern expansion one automatically necessitates contraction firearms related mindless mayhem related availibility firearms become scarce expensive , different psychology take hold think would used far less settle trivial complaints
arc cco caltech edu \( aaron ray clements \) subject 'pill' deer hunting organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 16 nntp posting host sandman caltech edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes new planet \? everything dependent either public political opinion , usually political imagine inalienable 'rights' somehow wired vast cold cosmos purest egotism dangerous delusion hold truths self evident , men created equal , endowed creator certain rights , among life , liberty , pursuit happiness declaration independence 4 july 1776 aaron arc cco caltech edu
cmort ncoast org \( christopher morton \) subject ban firearms ! reply cmort ncoast org \( christopher morton \) organization north coast public access nix , cleveland , oh lines 24 quoted 1993apr14 184448 2331 gnv ifas ufl edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu firearms tend fall low dollar pound area would economic smuggle production would local many people skill motivation assemble worthwhile firearms scratch high ranking crime figures could obtain imported uzis , average person , average thug , would lucky get zip gun would pay nose n't know much modern automatic weapons , \? anybody basic manufacturing skill turn high quality couple high school shop teachers recently arrested building school shop suggest go library find copy world entire premise based non factual assumptions 're like bunch educated , new york jewish aclu lawyers fighting eliminate school prayer public schools arkansas holly silva
mjp austin ibm com \( michael phelps \) subject non lethal alternatives handguns \? originator mjp bwa kgn ibm com reply mjp vnet ibm com \( michael j phelps \) organization ibm kingston ny keywords handgun mace pepper spray taser tasp phaser lines 27 holland cs colostate edu \( douglas craig holland \) writes guns non lethal bullets , like rubber plastic bullets would work well stopping attack \? doug holland projectile traveling near typical bullet speeds potentially lethal even blanks projectile cause death muzzle close proximity victim heard rubber plastic bullets used effectively riot situations intent crowd control , rather close range self defense 've also seen reports deaths caused british northern ireland use firearm self defense appropriate lawful situations point , consider deadly lethal force proper reaction law furthermore , use less effective still potentially lethal force set problems may well take applications less effective force stop incident places parties risk victim attack stopped , since aggregate damage done multiple applications may well deadly michael phelps , \( external \) mjp vnet ibm com \( internal \) mjp bwa kgn ibm com mjp \( last least disclaimer \) opinions mine
hambidge bms com subject 'pill' deer hunting reply hambidge bms com organization bristol myers squibb lines 81 article 1993apr14 gnv ifas ufl edu , jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes article 1993apr14 11363 synapse bms com , hambidge bms com writes second amendment sovereignty , sporting goods perfectly correct , wo n't make difference hmm beg differ probably make big difference point self defense valid reason rkba vast majority get life without ever , use display firearm besides , means self protection effective firearms thankfully , true majority go life without use firearm , situations firearms effective means self protection means propose equally effective \? freedoms rights dependent public opinion , necessity , scientific scrutiny new planet \? everything dependent either public political opinion , usually political imagine inalienable 'rights' somehow wired vast cold cosmos purest egotism dangerous delusion new country \? new political theory \? alas , speaking principle without principle , attempts republican forms gov't futile times public political opinion contrary principle , constitution gov't powers certain rights major reason prevent tyranny majority arguments rkba withstand scientific scrutiny n't like many things , issue one perception rather boring statistics every time young innocent gunned drive , every time kid murdered jacket , every time store clerk executed three dollars change , every time moron kills wife took last beer fridge , every time someone hears night rkba dies stats clearly behind firearms protection factor strongly outweigh mindless mayhem factor given society experience seems safer get rid many guns possible may error , enough active voters believe course exactly law based reasoned thought , immediate perception course , n't always work way fortunately , guarantees , logic sometimes prevail , , still means correction far enough active voters concerned , still open question vote made intend rkba supporters \? talk want talk good old days used firearms , talk take character war stories one interested anymore portray possible scenario future , silence rkba supporters right \? long public debate allowed , debate continue allow public debate restricted denied , get gov't deserve al standard disclaimer
jim wray yob sccsi com \( jim wray \) subject cnn sale organization ye olde bailey bbs houston , tx 713 520 1569 lines 18 reply jim wray yob sccsi com \( jim wray \) nntp posting host cs utexas edu bill vojak bv read paper ted turner wants trim bv media holdings putting cnn sale 1 potential bv bidder \? time warner course sigh need \( maybe 's time us , nra , goa , , , et al band together buy cnn voice would n't broadcast truth change able air favorable pro gun item two olx 2 2 way get ! ye olde bailey bbs 713 520 1569 \( v 32bis \) 713 520 9566 \( v 32bis \) houston , texas yob sccsi com home alt cosuard
jim wray yob sccsi com \( jim wray \) subject friends like organization ye olde bailey bbs houston , tx 713 520 1569 lines 27 reply jim wray yob sccsi com \( jim wray \) nntp posting host cs utexas edu paul prescod pp state edu \( cathy smith \) writes pp libertarians oppose waiting periods background checks pp prerequisite exercising rights supposed pp guaranteed pp let get straight unlike idiots newsgroup , pp actually support anybody unlimited access guns , pp criminals \( would prohibit owning , pp buying \? \) pp supreme idiot make idiots look like members thanks paul , yet another fine example thou gun control mindset n't add something intelligent debate , like maybe nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah olx 2 2 fight crime shoot back ! ye olde bailey bbs 713 520 1569 \( v 32bis \) 713 520 9566 \( v 32bis \) houston , texas yob sccsi com home alt cosuard
jim wray yob sccsi com \( jim wray \) subject turn organization ye olde bailey bbs houston , tx 713 520 1569 lines 29 reply jim wray yob sccsi com \( jim wray \) nntp posting host cs utexas edu dan sorenson writing ds 'd rather get medical care debate ds , find amazing criminals often live better ds rest population , aspects , 're paying ds example , november annual dental , somewhat error respects paying paying incarceration , paying lives belongings prey upon would practice nefarious acts citizens country amazing mindset overtly perpetuate justice system \( har \) essentially mandates us offer prey suitably olx 2 2 church crime justice come , let us prey ! ye olde bailey bbs 713 520 1569 \( v 32bis \) 713 520 9566 \( v 32bis \) houston , texas yob sccsi com home alt cosuard
jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) subject ban firearms ! organization hand held products , inc lines 34 distribution world nntp posting host dale handheld com article 1993apr14 sco com allanh sco com \( allan j heim \) writes papresco undergrad math uwaterloo ca \( paul prescod \) drugs banned , please tell supply dry \? drugs easier manufacture , easier smuggle , easier hide comparison let 's use another example alcoholic beverages bottles whiskey larger , heavier , fragile bags drugs barrels kegs larger heavier still , difficult manipulate yet , lot people managed get rich smuggling booze country years prohibition demand , entire industry formed supply beleive source kennedy 's money unless 's something i'm missing , think argument guns wo n't smuggled difficult manufacture , smuggle hide wo n't wash enough people want something , somebody try supply allan j heim allanh sco com ! uunet ! sco ! allanh 1 408 427 jim jmd handheld com i'm always rethinking 's never day n't rethought ca n't bill clinton 6 april 93 american , englishman , foreign troop landed country , never would lay arms , never never never ! william pitt , earl chatham 1708 1778 18 nov 1777
jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) subject gun like american express card organization hand held products , inc lines 76 distribution world nntp posting host dale handheld com article cmm 0 90 2 thomasp surt ifi uio thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio writes observations naive norwegian 1 \) guns made kill people , shoot target something macho stamps collect 2 \) easy kill injure someone gun knife bat \( baseball \) 3 \) 's wise compare two completely different countries like usa , let 's say , island issues like crime violence 4 \) yes , problem people committing crimes , tools beeing used , 1 \) taken far affects crime rate strict gun legislation norway , recently possible 18 years buy shotgun shotguns used mainly hunting norway \( \) , easy accuire one , used gun crimes solution restrict sale , 's necessary apply register shotgun unbelievable use guns crime fell rate crime fall \? , ban use rate violent crime matters , tools used 's crime , stupid ! new law wearing long knives public , allowed \? \? apparently became weapon choice shotguns banned , 'll decide car choice saab , propose ban ! , scandinavian , problems understand \( americans \) liberal view guns violence nudity sex try showing bare breast tv violence murder yes , know little american history , civil human right assault gun home handgun car \? \? yes still trust honest people time bad english fault , 's probably keyboard software quality subtext tv disclamer \( \) views university , probably whole universe thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio jmd handheld com i'm always rethinking 's never day n't rethought ca n't bill clinton 6 april 93 american , englishman , foreign troop landed country , never would lay arms , never never never ! william pitt , earl chatham 1708 1778 18 nov 1777
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject scoop waco road , please organization stratus computer , inc lines 13 distribution world nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com keywords topical , lite posting day , rec humor funny article looking ca , tti com \( pete \) writes new ice cream flavor inspired incident waco 's called mount , 's full nuts ca n't get carton cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
0005111312 mcimail com \( peter nesbitt \) subject newspapers censoring gun advertisements lines 88 recently looking around traders sporting goods store , well stocked firearms store , discovered printed document distributed good folks work traders , btw , located san leandro , ca granted , document may asking help traders , big scope things , feel would gun owners favor helping cause anyway , newspaper ad censorship letting newspapers tell live life , 's good , 's , exercise blatant censorship read \? newspapers decided censor gun ads longer see ads traders , san leandro , run many years ads run law abiding honest citizens firearms sporting use self protection certainly right , second amendment right bear arms tired newspapers run sex liquor ads , yet refuse run legitimate gun ads , please send letter editors indicating displeasure censorship doctrine following list bay area newspapers censor gun ads perhaps 'd like send thoughts issue ! oakland tribune daily review alameda times star pob pob oak st oakland , ca hayward , alameda , ca argus tri valley herald san leandro times rd pob 161 w ave fremont , ca , ca san leandro , ca contra costa times san mateo times san francisco chronicle pob 5088 pob 5400 901 mission st walnut creek , ca san mateo , ca san francisco , ca 94103 san fran independent san fran examiner san jose mercury news 1201 evans ave 110 5th st 750 park dr san fran , ca san fran , ca 94103 san jose , ca six pages facts validate facts , sources , many feel sound true topic headlines big media snow job blaming firearms murder like blaming hospitals death could use nazi technique cbs abc prove hospitals cause death nbc , cbs , abc american people gun control american tv journalism based nazi journalism tv journalists lie government help tv networks , succeeded playing one group gun laws unconstitutional american gun laws based nazi gun laws government trying conquer cia wants firearms six pages media trying help put gun dealers business trying limit exposure potential customers , preventing customers reading sales ammunition firearms sporting , hunting , recreational use let know write bozos peter nesbitt air traffic controller pnesbitt mcimail com oakland bay cbr600f2 pilot nra member w 41 magnum carrier
rats cbnewsc cb att com \( morris cat \) subject gun like american express card organization distribution usa lines 43 seems happening situation getting totally blown proportion post referring regular patrolman car cruising around city vs gang members course police access things mentioned use tanks time \? course n't 's point trying make every day go lunch always see cops coming majority see still carrying revolvers anything wrong revolver 're cop gang member couple automatics coat \( mean semi auto handguns \) 're going disadvantage even training shooting range gang gang members practicing shooting actually practicing taking guns quick possible shooting target n't badly either university cops \( state cops \) armed better chicago police seems state cops n't know originally david live live chicago see crap everyday news papers think situation tad different however , n't forget police chicago carry anything want except glock , approved carry \( guess figure cops like police chief , happened let stray round 9mm anti gun police chief wanted full auto uzis patrol cars \) perhaps judgement majority chicago 's finest , close 100 reliable weapon like revolver preferable 99 99 reliable automatic note germany , certainly 9mm semi auto handgun king , elite police types want revolvers n't think issue cost , chicago police certainly make order least 40k year presumption disadvantage think borne experiences new york city 's cops cops usually come top standard 38 spl revolvers 've seen ws , beretta addition revolvers carried chicago cops past , 've seen 45 others seen browning hi powers jason
gardner convex com \( steve gardner \) subject ban firearms ! nntp posting host imagine convex com organization engineering , convex computer corp , richardson , tx , usa x disclaimer message written user convex computer corp opinions expressed user necessarily convex lines 20 article 1993apr14 184448 2331 gnv ifas ufl edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes firearms tend fall low dollar pound area \? either denominator could dollar value gun would \( course \) go supply restricted weight gun might go significantly technology improved n't think basis assert would economic smuggle production would local many people skill motivation assemble worthwhile firearms scratch skill easily taught anyone modicum mechanical aptitude motivator needed money guns banned motivator would kick big time , course , proposition every machine shop make guns side ai n't rebuilding engines ban guns watch happens 'll schedule year advance get brakes \)
rats cbnewsc cb att com \( morris cat \) subject ban firearms ! organization distribution usa lines 38 firearms tend fall low dollar pound area would economic smuggle production would local many people skill motivation assemble worthwhile firearms scratch high ranking crime figures could obtain imported uzis , average person , average thug , would lucky get zip gun would pay nose borne reality old soviet union serious domestic handgun trade , guns commercial grade produced honest goodness would production local n't road system envy world \? seem recall incidents past chinese attempted smuggle ak \( semi autos \) country get around import number limitations \( may read years ago \) person high school drafting skills vocational school training could produce talk average person able get even zip gun well , think private controlled machinery used 3 shifts day think guns sold black market say , 150 , enterprising mechanical engineer could using machinery produce workable sale \? , article pictures batf looking manufacturer quite efficient commercial quality finish look way , 25 u households handgun say least half keep one self defense talking potential market tens millions people would seek firearms purpose self preservation fool would believe market would filled , regardless government prohibitions
bressler iftccu ca boeing com \( rick bressler \) subject armed citizen april '93 organization boeing commercial airplane group lines 22 iftccu talk politics guns kendall lds loral com \( colin kendall \) 9 23 apr 13 , 1993 article 1993apr5 dazixco ingr com crphilli hound dazixca ingr com writes armed citizen mere presence firearm , without shot fired , prevents crime many instances , shown news reports sent armed citizen perhaps , note accounts cited , one shot fired twelve , five described cases assailant wounded shot , six described cases assailant killed shot follow one months posting one reader noted , reporting bias seen months numbers reversed n't keep constant tally , seems particular issue shots fired remember rick
bressler iftccu ca boeing com \( rick bressler \) subject ban firearms ! organization boeing commercial airplane group lines 21 woops i'm sure screwed , either forgery sort mistake \( aborted post n't abort \) part bogus article seen another post ignored iftccu talk politics guns bressler iftccu ca boeing com \( rick bressler \) 3 29 pm apr 13 , 1993 iftccu talk politics guns papresco undergrad math uwaterloo ca \( paul prescod \) 1 49 apr 12 , 1993 article hydra gatech edu gt6511a prism gatech edu \( cochrane , james shapleigh \) writes certainly hope somebody 's idea joke , poor earlier posting mentioning illegal firearms manufacturing site searched feds florida area evidently ignored let 's look critically 1 many guns illegal manufacturing site make compared sorry rick
bressler iftccu ca boeing com \( rick bressler \) subject proper gun control \? proper gun control \? \( gun like american express card \) organization boeing commercial airplane group lines 96 iftccu talk politics guns mikey ccwf cc utexas edu \( strider \) 8 51 pm apr 12 , 1993 think us would rather held knife gun , hell going manage \? still n't offered 've watching knife verses gun bit , \( even contributed comments \) stuff 'd rather face knife gun got come ignorance ! used think pretty much thing , got ' people rule understand deadly knives , quickly killed one people n't understand takes less inch penetration areas cause quick \( within minute \) death death rates handguns knives within percentage points many people realizing deadly knives thus get injured knives gun deadly single direction 's advantage remote control weapon contact weapon knife controls spherical area 7 10 feet diameter people never seen knife wounds , aside finger accident 21 feet , knife nearly even match holstered gun experienced hands , even knife wielder moderate skill inside 10 feet , knife match drawn gun knife utterly silent , never jams never runs ammunition limited speed , skill ability 's wielder criminals general young , fast strong 's interesting note slashing attacks used many martial artists remarkably resemble wild uncontrolled slashing attacks novices 've talked several well trained martial artists unanimously agreed ever go knife simply plan cut , hopefully bad attacker practicing firearms requires facilities equipment practicing knives requires small area something simulate knife , say stick tooth brush criminals practice knife attacks prison trained knives firearm realize facts first something wrong knife ripping throat , case experienced attacker , parts body falling onto ground 60 year old man arthritis close 7 yard distance gut one half seconds dennis broken leg walking cast managed two 've seen people close distance strike 1 second i'm old , weight slow 1 3 seconds 've seen morgue footage people killed edged weapons would believe \( single stab wound chest table fork ! case attacker used handle , pointed end \) add hand gun power largely myth except case central nervous system shot , round destroys structure , takes anywhere 3 twelve seconds bullet wound effect ' true even heart shots case police woman l , first recorded survivor 357 shot heart lady killed attacker , chased ! four shots , fired shot , struck perp girl ! bullet entered downward angle , went apex heart , diaphragm , clipped liver destroyed spleen exited back leaving tennis ball sized hole died six times operating table , hospital 15 days back full duty eight months ! duty time wearing vest way home happened gun , n't think civilians rights sigh moral story even manage shoot knife attacker , 'd better planning dodging good alternative shoot break people often walk \( little \) broken legs broken nearly always anchor many firearms schools recommend shots contact weapons target large traditional 'center reliable stop somebody contact weapon , assuming caliber powerful enough 'do job ' hot 38 's usually remember folks , idea n't em you' live fail , whatever consequences reason n't goal , many cases even good enough keep us alive n't want face violent attack sort knowing know , ca n't rightly say 'd rather face knife gun would depend attacker , could pick choose , really bottom line criminals fear law criminals fear weapon fear citizen behind weapon shown resolution determination whatever takes rick
bressler iftccu ca boeing com \( rick bressler \) subject proper gun control \? proper gun control \? \( gun like american express card \) organization boeing commercial airplane group lines 16 iftccu talk politics guns hays ssd intel com \( kirk hays \) 3 31 pm apr 13 , 1993 pro gun posters group guns dread terminator , aka rifleman , owned firearms several years posting group , example others good point , kirk 's still around 's responded email couple posts , gosh darn , 's gotten right civil ! time got first firearm wonder relationship \? turns people \( least ones criminals start \) act responsibility given chance rick
chris com \( chris miller \) subject 'pill' deer hunting nntp posting host com organization usr local etc organization lines 79 article 1993apr14 gnv ifas ufl edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes article 1993apr14 11363 synapse bms com , hambidge bms com writes second amendment sovereignty , sporting goods perfectly correct , wo n't make difference agree sad , true self defense valid reason rkba vast majority get life without ever , use display firearm besides , means self protection effective firearms please name one freedoms rights dependent public opinion , necessity , scientific scrutiny new planet \? everything dependent either public political opinion , usually political imagine inalienable 'rights' somehow wired vast cold cosmos purest egotism dangerous delusion upon bill rights based delusion arguments rkba withstand scientific scrutiny n't like many things , issue one perception rather boring statistics every time young innocent gunned drive , every time kid murdered jacket , every time store clerk executed three dollars change , every time moron kills wife took last beer fridge , every time someone hears night rkba dies stats clearly behind firearms protection factor strongly outweigh mindless mayhem factor given society experience seems safer get rid many guns possible may error , enough active voters believe course true practice , certain unethical politicians would passing gun control laws politicians generally whores public opinion mean public either well informed correct stats , anyone support anything right stats right stats , 've seen , sometimes even used support conflicting sides issue intend rkba supporters \? talk want talk good old days used firearms , talk take character war stories one interested anymore used firearms \? armed insurrection , ff 's const may envisioned seems somewhat fanatical approach avoiding , political protest still option point agree 's enough late else fails , 's always pvc pipe chris miller chris com opinions \( obviously \) , definition reflect opinions anyone else
andy sail stanford edu \( andy freeman \) subject gun control organization computer science department , stanford university lines 42 article 1993apr14 beaver cs washington edu graham cs washington edu \( stephen graham \) writes article b12 transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) writes consider similar structure well educated electorate , necessary security free state , right people keep read books , shall infringed , mean electorate keep read books \? mean registered voters keep read books \? mean voted keep read books \? imply restrictions right keep read books \? would imply state right regulate enforce education 's nice , n't answer question difference feds mandate literacy feds ca n't interfere literacy book possession far john q public gun , supreme court already ruled cases us v miller \( 307 u 175 \( 1939 \) \) , us v \( 110 ct 1839 \( 1990 \) \) exactly amendment protects interpretation found far back scott case , 's worth noting us vs miller sustained miller 's conviction possession illegal firearm , noting sawed shotgun proper militia weapon therefore , us vs miller supports limited government regulation firearms actually , miller court nothing kind case back trial court miller court n't know weapon question militia weapon \( n't bother anyone major constitutional issue taken case defense \? miller released appeals court disappeared govt represented \) n't know would happened reasonable guns militia weapons argument andy
bnr ca \( myron petro \) subject boston gun buy back organization bnr inc rtp , nc lines 17 ron miller wrote ask question authorities sponsors buyback programs whether check stolen weapons answer , 's total amnesty \( good point registration schemes used harassment deleted \) would also like point receiving stolen property different pawn shop owner thing myron petro nra , y'all opinions included post sole responsibility protected first amendment second amendment
slack boi hp com \( david slack \) subject clinton wants national id card , aka ussr style internal passport organization hewlett packard boise , idaho x newsreader tin version 1 1 4 pl6 lines 24 idea card bull self , i'm curious know , plan making requirement always , going required presented trying ge medical aid \? btw , anybody planning hillary 's head look 666 \? 8 \) later dave , days goverment logic clintons \? david h slack boise surface mount center email slack hpdmd48 boi hp com telnet 323 4019 phone \( 208 \) 323 4019 hewlett packard , blvd , boise idaho 1023 , 625
nagle netcom com \( john nagle \) subject fyi batf reply waco organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 8 san francisco examiner reports clinton issued instructions federal law enforcement may kill injure anyone resolve waco situation 've built fence around compound , seriously considering building fence prison camp levels , pulling manpower , waiting however many months takes john nagle
jrutledg cs ulowell edu \( john lawrence rutledge \) subject gun control organization interactive media group university massachusetts lowell lines 76 article 1993apr16 synapse bms com , hambidge bms com writes actually , words well regulated , necessary security free state present , used adjective modify , followed main clause sentence , subject 'the right' , verb asserts right keep bear arms essential maintaining free state yes , agree first half amendment modify noun militia modify applies well regulated modifies militia qualify limit meaning example , wet day phrase wet day amendment similiar statement wet day , annoying , right people keep wear boots , shall infringed dry day pertain right use boots \? similiar , unorganized militia due right guns \? sentence second amendment n't restrict right , state imply possession right anyone anything people make positive statement regarding right people people , , first , fourth , ninth , tenth , well second amendment existence right assumed granted amendment stated implied condition relating right bear arms necessity well regulated militia security words , entire sentence says right keep bear arms unconditional , unconditional , shall infringed infringed defined break ignore terms obligations \( oath , agreement , law , like \) violate go beyond boundaries limits encroach definition implies following form existing agreement laws agreements made advance boundaries limits behavior set society whole word unconditional implies agreements previous agreements , opposite words used first amendment much stronger , e , congress shall make law , much stronger clearly imply unconditional writers amendment , wanted unconditional n't says , congress shall make laws pertaining right people keep bear arms \? second amendment implies sort contract people people state bigger part contract people right government laws time guarantee right , laws cannot stopped people forming well militia duties well regulated militia government federalist 29 limits governmental control militia article section 8 , article ii section 2 , second amendment constitution modern document , john lawrence rutledge smart index hyper links stretching research assistant world data net terribly frustrating flip back forth interactive media group pages crude flat illustrations computer science department never even moved animated umass lowell arrows zoom ins completely lacked 1 university ave sound lowell , 01854 problem new words normal text 'd \( 508 \) 934 touch unfamiliar word definition jrutledg cs ulowell edu would pop david 's earth
jrutledg cs ulowell edu \( john lawrence rutledge \) subject militia \( incredibly long \) organization interactive media group university massachusetts lowell lines 54 article transfer stratus com , cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) writes article ulowell ulowell edu , jrutledg cs ulowell edu \( john lawrence rutledge \) writes , knew much organization required training large group poeple twice year try get people every year , provide basic training new people integrated force , find suitable location , requires continually standing committee organizers , response , \? mr rutledge arguing since local federal governments abandoned charter support activity , passed laws prohibiting private organizations , eliminated basis rkba \? contrary , anyone understands game , strengthened , originally argued second amendment little bit anachronism prohibiting laws examples anachronism , laws made representatives people representatives people already decided second amendment apply broad cases since representatives feel unconditional interpretation wanted , probable majority people feel way , example people using power government people feel , people stand state wishes mox nix , mr rutledge one claiming rkba dependent existence top flight , well regulated militia false assumption already posted number times , simple stated people right join well organized militia also stated militia meets twice year clearly well organized state readiness claimed people right , state readiness expected militia stated hamilton modern document , john lawrence rutledge smart index hyper links stretching research assistant world data net terribly frustrating flip back forth interactive media group pages crude flat illustrations computer science department never even moved animated umass lowell arrows zoom ins completely lacked 1 university ave sound lowell , 01854 problem new words normal text 'd \( 508 \) 934 touch unfamiliar word definition jrutledg cs ulowell edu would pop david 's earth
donb netcom com \( baldwin \) subject fyi batf reply waco organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 43 article elite intel com dgw elite intel com \( dennis willson \) writes march 8 , sent strongly worded letters batf handling randy weaver branch davidian cases several politicians \( ore senators bob mark , representative elizabeth treasury secretary lloyd bentsen \) never supporter bob , must admit seems one done anything round file letter well , n't bother writing boxer , , terrible trio represent instead , wrote bentsen letter exactly strongly worded simply stated batf approach immoral \( military style assault , firing house knew kids \) , bentsen forwarded letter batf responded directly follows text reply pretty closely however , intend send another letter directly , return prior service federal search warrant , numerous efforts made locate effect arrest david koresh away compound efforts unsuccessful even david koresh arrested away compound , action would required followers \( violent \) subsequent search premises section letter received parts atf logo badges loss element surprise included , either sincerely , daniel h \? \? l \? \? tt ca n't make signature deputy director guy bad handwriting apparently signed letter , richard l garner chief , special operations division
bressler iftccu ca boeing com \( rick bressler \) subject non lethal alternatives handguns \? organization boeing commercial airplane group lines 25 iftccu talk politics guns steiner jupiter ca boeing com 12 07 apr 15 , 1993 douglas craig holland \( holland cs colostate edu \) writes crap deleted trim articles ! guns non lethal bullets , like rubber plastic bullets would work well stopping attack \? last heard , non lethal bit misnomer things also , need consider legal system since things lethal , going hard time explaining applied lethal force think necessary \( thought lethal force necessary , would n't using rubber bullets , would \? \) ouch justified shooting , justified using best self defense ammunition get hands might actually improve legal outcome hollow points hold court safer , safer innocent , \( n't rule go perp \) actually safer perp using military hard ball , may shoot times , one two hollow points might stop job rule , fewer wound channels , better chance surviving incident rick
bressler iftccu ca boeing com \( rick bressler \) subject gun lovers \( gun like american express card \) organization boeing commercial airplane group lines 35 hell , glock last thing switched thing know glock lack real safety sure little thing trigger n't great safety 're getting warmer thing depressed trigger move means damned thing wo n't go trigger pulled makes \( problems , 're assuming gun functioning correctly \) safe revolver gun working correctly totally drop safe , police work consideration single documented case i'm aware police officer killed failed operate safety firearm quite documented cases criminals got hold cops gun could n't figure get safety time use gun , thus proprietary nature safety \( criminal least \) likely prevented office getting shot purpose safety make gun safe unintentional fire mean complicated slow intentional use ! thus glock safety perfectly adequate standpoint , necessarily desirable standpoint open carry easily grabbed somebody else criteria make lot sense concealed carry piece standpoint police use , better \( worse \) revolver far officer method firing ideal solution may someday sensing user firearm ca n't used anybody 's owner , wide variety safety systems helps , unless criminal happens familiar particular type firearm rick
bressler iftccu ca boeing com \( rick bressler \) subject gun lovers \( gun like american express card \) organization boeing commercial airplane group lines 104 iftccu talk politics guns vincent cad gatech edu \( vincent fox \) 10 34 apr 14 , 1993 n't rec guns , maybe getting bet technical , ca n't resist revolver also advantage pull trigger sometimes depends double action revolver \( almost \) hand cocked first , fire merely pulling trigger ca n't imagine much combat type shooting single action misfire revolver merely means must pull trigger rotate next round assuming cylinder rotate revolver carried 6th chamber empty hammer maximum safety , still drawn fired easy motion , even one handed never hurts err side safety , 've got one 'new hammer blocks transfer bar safeties , 's unnecessarily redundant 'd rather extra round revolver allow almost fast magazines semi autos faster depending users quite true speed little less convenient pack around magazines though misfire semi auto require clear jammed shell first , time spent fatal vital second often lost realize hey , 's jammed ! starting anything clearing true , training function semi autos must slide worked chamber first round cock hammer police carry semi autos chamber loaded hammer cocked , safety engaged consider safe however must trade safety get speed employment revolver cocked locked single actions hammer double actions carry modes make sense 80 series colt 's example quite safe carry way double action semi autos , complexity operation many requires training agreed 've shot mouth bit , let back true simple misfire revolver n't cost much hand , 've sorts interesting things happen years example , 've factory ammunition high primers high primer tie revolver somewhere seconds minutes try pound action open clear problem auto \? jack slide continue 've bullets come case , keeping cylinder turning , see clearing paragraph worst happen semi auto double feed cleared seconds revolvers semi auto 's sorts close tolerance parts fitting involved dropping gun , blow gun sorts things take action many problems cured spot \( quality \) semi auto take gun smith revolver short revolver may less likely malfunction , rule , 're fight majority malfunctions occur semi autos fall category makes many good points post , leaves opposing view real good starting place 's semi auto pistol police self defense general , 'd agree , revolver excellent first gun self defense weapon somebody time , inclination necessary training practice needed use semi auto effectively self defense arm cops notoriously indifferent firearms department n't going train , n't going take time doubt training issue amount training required effective use semi auto probably several times revolver many cops n't bother , 'd hate limited one 'd rather pick fits better personal inclination , i'm wearing day like moderator rec guns says , buy em ! said , admit often advice people thinking buying first defense arm \( right taking class \) get ruger smith revolver \( sorry colt fans colt revolvers ok ! \) post gone way , 'd arguing revolvers \) rick
bressler iftccu ca boeing com \( rick bressler \) subject 'pill' deer hunting organization boeing commercial airplane group lines 37 iftccu talk politics guns jrm gnv ifas ufl edu 6 26 apr 14 , 1993 vast majority get life without ever , use display firearm suppose depends define majority correct ' somewhere 1 three one 10 period lives experience violent assault risk generally higher emergency medical problems like heart attack stroke probably loose term approximately 1 , 000 , 000 americans using firearms year , 30 year period get \( roughly , since may \) 30 million americans experience using firearms self defense 30 250 yields 12 percent population \( yes , know real rough estimate 're closer 270 million , many minors included etc , thus percentage anything low \) rate , minority groups range usually referred minorities , n't see part group referred majority little work might support majority americans never use , display firearm certainly talking ownership wrong nearly half fellow citizens one firearms besides , means self protection effective firearms please provide list means effective might convince local police departments switch good luck rick
jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) subject guns backcountry \? thanks organization hand held products , inc lines 59 distribution world nntp posting host dale handheld com article uinpla npl uiuc edu reimer uinpla npl uiuc edu \( paul e reimer \) writes article cronkite cisco com , pitargue cisco com \( marciano pitargue \) writes stuff deleted causes people er factoid shooting victims er count many come due automobile accidents automobile crimes maybe outlaw cars marciano pitargue cisco com lot automobile accidents , atleast regulation try combat \? drunk drivers get back road time , kill seems driver 's license process work got drivers license , take drivers safety class wanted one underage licensed drive public roads car must registered driven public roads , segments property must \( least live \) liability insurance driving car \( someone else accident \) public roads hmm , would n't manditory saftey classes , registration owner gun , manditory liability insurance nice gun owners perhaps , gave permission shoot public roads parks \) paul reimer reimer npl uiuc edu jim jmd handheld com i'm always rethinking 's never day n't rethought ca n't bill clinton 6 april 93 american , englishman , foreign troop landed country , never would lay arms , never never never ! william pitt , earl chatham 1708 1778 18 nov 1777
cco caltech edu \( f \) subject gun like organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 63 nntp posting host punisher caltech edu article 1993apr16 194708 13273 vax oxford ac uk jaj vax oxford ac uk writes turkey pro pistol automatic weapons fanatics n't seem realize rest us laugh n't make angry , make chuckle steve , 's nice find laughable n't quite understand think firearms clash i'm wearing , nra sticker n't straight \? please state judgement ! find sad people wo n't accept responsibility defend laugh contempt sheep expect government protect n't realize took photo back truck , showed friends got back vancouver , canada \( i'm originally \) people basic stupidity sticker , even greater stupidity person put first place ! \) friends sound like bunch smug intellectuals live britain , see rest civilized world perceives gun nut morons oh , guess i'm still waiting knowing academic likes solve worlds problems let us know answers punch lines case may problem canada , hear , suffering national eccentricity , easy purchase weapons smuggled cross border 's yankee thing \? canadians actually uncivilized americans \? hell , britain , cops n't even carry guns well 's anything like would n't matter would n't able use hell , recall , people 's court , even rusty carried gun ! never know , plaintiff might go nuts \) \) n't waste time watching tv , steve corrupt mind anyway , gun nut rush limbaugh fans , please keep brady evil liberal media plots 're damn funny ! provide endless amounts entertainment arguments examples someone allowed carry piece ! keep us chuckling ! ditto , self righteous one lay derogatory tirade thick , steve y'all keep laughing 'll keep feeling safe secure steve
cathy lance colostate edu \( cathy smith \) subject reminder denver rally tomorrow distribution usa nntp posting host blanca lance colostate edu organization colorado state university , fort collins , co 80523 lines 23 monster rally ! ! right carry weapons tomorrow , sunday , april 18 , 1993 , 1 00 3 30 p , denver libertarian party sponsor rally state capitol support individual right carry weapons speakers include former colorado deputy attorney general david kopel , radio host ken , dlp chair david segal , pistol instructor jackson , l neil smith presence participation highly welcome information call david segal \( 303 \) 296 cathy smith opinions , course ,
veal utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) subject militia \( incredibly long \) lines 47 organization university tennessee division continuing education article ulowell ulowell edu jrutledg cs ulowell edu \( john lawrence rutledge \) writes article transfer stratus com , cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) writes , response , \? mr rutledge arguing since local federal governments abandoned charter support activity , passed laws prohibiting private organizations , eliminated basis rkba \? contrary , anyone understands game , strengthened , originally argued second amendment little bit anachronism prohibiting laws examples anachronism , laws made representatives people representatives people already decided second amendment apply broad cases since representatives feel unconditional interpretation wanted , probable majority people feel way , example people using power government people feel , people stand state wishes 'll point whole point difficult amendment process require super majority change supreme law , making impossible majority people simply change law whim simply changing meaning based representatives people effectively destroys amendment process state 's , know , also entitled say process mox nix , mr rutledge one claiming rkba dependent existence top flight , well regulated militia false assumption already posted number times , simple stated people right join well organized militia 'll note right could considered protected first amendment 's protection peaceful assembly unless would consider militia inherently non peaceful , 've stated thing twice david veal univ tenn div cont education info services group pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu still remember way laughed , day pushed elevator shaft i'm beginning think n't love anymore weird al
veal utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) subject gun like lines 88 organization university tennessee division continuing education article 1993apr16 194708 13273 vax oxford ac uk jaj vax oxford ac uk writes turkey pro pistol automatic weapons fanatics n't seem realize rest us laugh n't make angry , make chuckle 's nice strive entertainment value \) remeber , washington seeing pick truck front car friend bumper sticker proclaiming gun control firm grip 45 i'm sure thought pretty cool n't realize took photo back truck , showed friends got back vancouver , canada \( i'm originally \) people basic stupidity sticker , even greater stupidity person put first place ! \) first place , realize feeling goes ways canadians laugh u , americans simply shrug hell let state first place \) knew somebody else went one gun mart places , could experience sight people putting guns ammo shopping carts ! n't believe drove one vegas last year ! ! ! interesting strategy , posting complaints people elsewhere live britain , see rest civilized world perceives gun nut morons courtesy apparently dead commodity rest civilized world gun nut morons , indeed bbc recently referred american pistols , automatic weapons , etc appropriately called national eccentricity 've got guns , 've got monarch economy collapse finger pointing across waste time problem canada , hear , suffering national eccentricity , easy purchase weapons smuggled cross border canada blaming u problems years simple fact matter ten years ago great system 'd gotten rid guns u would much better 'd get divine light shining north pointed cultural differences , pointed pre control crime rates also pointed history entire world contained smuggling , whenever something wanted , smuggled problem based u guns , would surfaced years canadian criminals want guns provided canada version drug problem yet drugs prohibited u hell , britain , cops n't even carry guns \( 's another funny thing see us border guard , 's got 45 38 belt , tons o' spare ammo never know , maybe canadian shopper might get hand hell , recall , people 's court , even rusty carried gun ! never know , plaintiff might go nuts \) \) saw news report britain armed crime rise , several police agencies considering permanent firearms officers deal according u news world report , british handgun deaths risen 250 past twelve years u number dropped 5 maybe 're smuggling across u u k border yeah , 's ticket ! nice day , steve learn little common courtesy politeness david veal univ tenn div cont education info services group pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu still remember way laughed , day pushed elevator shaft i'm beginning think n't love anymore weird al
pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) subject guns backcountry \? thanks lines 67 organization university tennessee division continuing education article uinpla npl uiuc edu reimer uinpla npl uiuc edu \( paul e reimer \) writes article cronkite cisco com , pitargue cisco com \( marciano pitargue \) writes stuff deleted causes people er factoid shooting victims er count many come due automobile accidents automobile crimes maybe outlaw cars marciano pitargue cisco com lot automobile accidents , atleast regulation try combat got drivers license , take drivers safety class tennessee , least , require sort safety class get driver 's license required one twenty question quiz drive car around block without crashing licensed drive probability , n't required licensed drive public roads license necessary private property car must registered states require registration cars used public roads \( california know \) tax purposes anything else must \( least live \) liability insurance driving car \( someone else accident \) many states currently require , , , make requirement public roads car sitting unused required insurance hmm , would n't manditory saftey classes , registration owner gun , manditory liability insurance nice gun owners two , pointed significant difference making rules use public property making rules ownership half objection trust similar things tried many local across country , abused far many cases safety classes never , never funded , one two held year limited number participants registration lists new york , chicago , california used confiscation many gun owners would , theory , support planes \( although numbers overwhelmingly show competence problem , intentional misuse \) 've simply seen abused leery next person comes pike reasonable suggestion 've already seen abused david veal univ tenn div cont education info services group pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu still remember way laughed , day pushed elevator shaft i'm beginning think n't love anymore weird al
bixledn eng auburn edu \( david n bixler \) subject criminals machineguns nntp posting host mosquito eng auburn edu reply bixledn eng auburn edu organization auburn university engineering lines 14 's one way know tell ar 15 16 pick , hold foot face look closely saftey lever two positions , ar 15 , three , 16 numerous internal differences well , since one would field strip weapon see , valid discussion , conclusion , little external differences distinguish ar 15 16 except close \( close \) range david bixler auburn university standard disclaimers apply
joan koala berkeley edu \( \) subject guns backcountry \? thanks organization u c berkeley lines 40 nntp posting host koala berkeley edu article idacom hp com guy idacom hp com \( guy \) writes hi , canada , gun enters national park must sealed \( think 's small metal tag 's placed trigger \) net result ca n't use gun protect bears \( \) national parks instead , one sensitive dangers hiking bear country , take appropriate precautions think policy makes users national parks feel little closer nature , part nature , , deal nature 's terms guy hello , understand philosophy bears national treasure , area sanctuary people enter risk better rare human killed bear bears provoked shot visitors bears n't population explosion , humans better human killed endanger bears n't agree , understand bit different national treasure suppose decision made allow provision defense would also allow provision defense bears , suppose decided better rare human killed psycho take chance threatening bears personally , would n't go area would managed reduce safety come think guess live managed wilderness \) joan v
pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) subject gun control organization totally unorganized lines 53 article 1993apr16 010235 14225 mtu edu cescript mtu edu \( charles scripter \) writes article 2k7 ulowell ulowell edu jrutledg cs ulowell edu \( john lawrence rutledge \) wrote excellent exchange deleted seems whole reason second amendment , give people protection us government guaranteeing people government necessary , little bit anachronism day age maybe time think done amend constitution appropriately abraham lincoln , first inaugural address , march 4 , 1861 country , institutions , belongs people inhabit whenever shall grow weary existing government , exercise constitutional right , revolutionary right overthrow rep gerry massachusetts , spoken floor debate second amendment , annals congress 750 , 17 august 1789 , sir , use militia \? prevent establishment standing army , bane liberty whenever governments mean invade rights liberties people , always attempt destroy militia , order raise army upon ruins know category mr rutledge means destroy liberties rights find hard understand come people , apparantly connected government otherwise privileged , go great lengths , , interpretations , full bore attempt throw away protection rights constitution ! ! ! almost makes think lemmings running sea year really wonder jefferson madison would say folks \? government little great things , shall drawn washington centre power , render powerless checks provided one government another become venal oppressive government separated thomas jefferson , 1821 excellent quote pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc 1 207 \( pat myrto \) seattle , wa else fails , try ! uunet ! pilchuck ! rwing ! pat wisdom two things infinite universe human stupidity , sure former albert einstien
gt6511a prism gatech edu \( cochrane , james shapleigh \) subject guns backcountry \? thanks organization georgia institute technology lines 91 article clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) writes article uinpla npl uiuc edu reimer uinpla npl uiuc edu \( paul e reimer \) writes article cronkite cisco com , pitargue cisco com \( marciano pitargue \) writes stuff deleted causes people er due automobile accidents automobile crimes maybe outlaw cars lot automobile accidents , atleast regulation try combat \? drunk drivers get back road time , kill seems driver 's license process work testify cousin spent weeks hospital , friend killed , drunk driver son b back streets officers scene still p ed one take drivers safety class wanted one underage licensed drive public roads car must registered driven public roads , segments property must \( least live \) liability insurance driving car \( someone else accident \) public roads obviously n't always work , else would offer motorist coverage \? hmm , would n't manditory saftey classes , registration owner gun , manditory liability insurance nice gun owners object mandatory registration n't trust government use information give purposes licensed carry concealed pistol home state , never asked whether actually owned firearm safety class issuing permit carry reasonably , provided classes regularly available public course , places would consider time reserves competition rifle team count perhaps , gave permission shoot public roads parks \) hey , 's idea \) paul reimer jim , unless agenda private ownership firearms , would want harass person trying legally defend exercise rights \? \( know , defending oneself family whoever right least far 9mm concerned \) \( also far state alabama seems concerned \) n't push stricter prosecution use firearms commission crime \? 've already pointed n't nailing dui 's hard enough comparing us countries seldom works , european attitude towards dui seems work attitude towards weapons n't really valid comparison 've historically done best keep populace disarmed , country founded bunch rugged told european \( part \) take flying leap \( used polite language though \) even first international treaty , convinced french best interests complain first overcome fact brits best restrict us squirrel guns , 'd properly forced us pay wars course , american history classes days tend gloss facts fit image wish convey i'm glad amer teacher libertarian us review good portion federalist papers , debate origins meanings enough rambling , james james cochrane danger , doubt , run space gt6511a prism gatech edu circles , scream shout rent
jim wray yob sccsi com \( jim wray \) subject cnn sale organization ye olde bailey bbs houston , tx 713 520 1569 lines 32 reply jim wray yob sccsi com \( jim wray \) nntp posting host cs utexas edu w k gorman 3 maybe 's time us , nra , goa , , , et al band 3 together buy cnn voice would n't broadcast 3 truth change able air favorable pro gun item two 3 would like see happen n't think n't 3 think average gun owner take notice happening 3 break door 3 go record publicly effect contribute 3 minimum 1 , 000 00 buy fund organized made 3 viable anybody else want put money mouth \? \) 3 ar 50 million gun owners 's big 3 realistic got hold cnn , anti gun bullshit would 3 stop right wo n't happen nobody get 3 ass make happen nuts nra headquarters weenies listening man organization listening 's time stop fighting brady 's schumer 's \( 's interesting meaning bs \) comfort office better get serious time money get might well pack olx 2 2 gun control advocates must sanity pass ! ye olde bailey bbs 713 520 1569 \( v 32bis \) 713 520 9566 \( v 32bis \) houston , texas yob sccsi com home alt cosuard
fcrary ucsu colorado edu \( frank crary \) subject carrying arms nntp posting host ucsu colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder distribution usa lines 32 article 1993apr5 6800 spdc ti com epcot spdc ti com \( dan white \) writes question second amendment bothered awhile amendment right keep bear arms currently , gun trying restrict eliminate right keep arms brady bill assault weapon ban however , n't already lost right bear arms \? seems states , like texas , citizen may gun carry home business citizen severely restricted bearing outside areas texas cannot carry car except traveling usually defined traveling across county line come \? court rulings legality restricting carrying weapon outside home \? , would help texans many states , laws found violate state constitution federal second amendment apply directly states written limit federal government fourteenth amendment written extend restrictions bill rights state level however , exact wording fourteenth amendment vague supreme court dancing around issue without facing directly 100 years practice , bill right \( indirectly applies fourteenth \) applies state governments supreme court ruled particular provision court made rulings second amendment frank crary cu boulder
donb netcom com \( baldwin \) subject 2nd amendment dead good ! organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 29 article 1993apr18 001319 2340 gnv ifas ufl edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes bulk firarems used unworthy unnesessary opponents posessa cool jakcet want , would argue parking space , would take woman short , trivial worthless causes 's open debate certainly , excessive number people murdered every year people also save innocent lives firearms media n't tell us happens much ruined cause recovery near future , federal martials come arms think us federal marshalls one help dangerous , thinking , 'criminal' fault crap 's simplistic thinking part feather headed 2nd amendment dead accept find another way nuts
donb netcom com \( baldwin \) subject 2nd amendment dead good ! organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 14 article clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) writes 2nd amendment dead accept find another way ai n't dead , yet even repealed , remember , protects rkba , grant rights would additional laws passed outlaw gun possession even outlawed private posession firearms , would moral force behind law imagine compliance would low
lvc cbnews cb att com \( larry cipriani \) subject gun like organization ideology busters , inc lines 80 article 1993apr16 194708 13273 vax oxford ac uk jaj vax oxford ac uk writes turkey pro pistol automatic weapons fanatics n't seem realize rest us laugh think 're pretty hilarious love brit 's kiss royal arse 're willing throw freedom speech sake protecting reputation royal british government advertised american newspapers send gun defend british home british civilians , faced threat invasion , desperately need arms defense homes wwii american rifleman november , 1940 publications act misuse drugs act used justification police seize william 's , hunter thompson 's fear loathing las vegas , tom wolfe 's electric kool aid acid test british courts never recognized right assemble demonstrate evidence obtained form coerced confessions allowed trial serious felonies warrant trial jury suspected terrorists must prove innocence , instead government prove guilt secretary state may issue order bars someone ever entering particular part united kingdom , northern ireland wales bbc banned paul mccartney 's give ireland back irish well john lennon 's give peace chance gulf war yes , england funny pathetic knew somebody else went one gun mart places , could experience sight people putting guns ammo shopping carts ! n't believe drove one vegas last year ! ! ! laughter way dealing things find uncomfortable thought las vegas show girl ads las vegas street corners pretty funny yes indeed , many strange things country would n't way live britain , see rest civilized world perceives gun nut morons bbc recently referred american pistols , automatic weapons , etc appropriately called national eccentricity n't disagree , n't think 's bad either problem canada , hear , suffering national eccentricity , easy purchase weapons smuggled cross border n't come would come elsewhere disguised cocaine anyway , gun nut rush limbaugh fans , please keep brady evil liberal media plots 're damn funny ! provide endless amounts entertainment arguments examples someone allowed carry piece ! keep us chuckling ! laugh want , us 's matter life death n't find funny least england allies become open , britain grow yet secretive perhaps real british vice , willingness tolerate constraints others would find britain , country edward goodman , pp 33 larry cipriani l v cipriani att com
donb netcom com \( baldwin \) subject guns gone good riddance ! organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 41 article 1993apr18 000152 2339 gnv ifas ufl edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes vote , cause considered abomination matter hard try , public opinion set rkba nope northern california , newspaper recently survey , asking people favored stricter gun controls full 40 said , one liberal \( n't always swear word \( areas country , nearly half people n't want additional controls , let alone rkba end finish clinton administration , rkba null void tough titty misguided though may \( though , still maintain , less dangerous bush \) , clinton publicly support second amendment surrender arms soon enough , officers around collect resistance useless overwhelm one time neighbors help consider immediate threat abstract 'criminal' well , 'll help neighbors fucking bad gone way kkk violent solutions passe' avoid situations encourage criminals safe possible violent solutions passe' \? take propose disarming police , \? please n't mention rkba breath kkk rkba able defend others , killing innocent actually , mention kkk rather funny , considering first gun control law us created specifically disarm black people
fcrary ucsu colorado edu \( frank crary \) subject gun like american express card nntp posting host ucsu colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 85 article cmm 0 90 2 thomasp surt ifi uio thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio writes drivers licence forgot usa land cars getting one scandinavia \( northern europe \) easy average time 20 hours training , cost rather license required driving car exclusively private property , farm \? united states , license required use public roads abuse goverment seems one main problems harder gun control would abused goverment \( ! \) either little paranoid \( offence \) get new goverment \( elections \? \? \) also nation 250 million people , many issues usually two candidates given office president might willing abuse mild gun control laws create de facto ban \( something majority people would object \) still elected voters might look issues like civil rights minorities , health care , etc vote lesser two evils n't think matter paranoia , since local governments \( example \) new york chicago abused existing , mild gun control laws create virtual ban guns 'n criminals weapons used criminals today stolen known criminals buy weapons , 's one points gun control case , united states already gun control laws according federal statistic , 7 gun wielding criminals legally purchase guns licensed dealers 's point gun control \( prevent criminals legally purchasing guns \) america n't need additional laws accomplish mixing weapons things use one meant cars kill , guns ! different guns \? legal purposes owning using gun appropriate tools hunting , target shooting self defence like cars , murder n't \( even common \) use 50 murders done axes , would impose regulations say ment used trees , axe problem , 's \? \? certainly could n't imagine american public accepting regulation axes politics nations may different , america strong opposition intrusive law primarily would effect average , law abiding citizen done anything wrong think situation los angeles people buying guns protect good situation \? \? rigth way deal problem \? \? good way deal problem \? way deal short term problem rioting violent attacks course , n't anything long term issues start riots point , individuals long term social problems \? everybody buys guns protect criminals \( neighbor guns \) think happen \? \? \( mean everybody gun usa \) , according surveys , guns 40 american homes many parts country , closer 100 places almost everyone owns gun , average , safer guns less common last word responsible gun owners problem , affected want protect citicens , think , fundamental difference american government nations acceptable punish restrict average , law abiding citizen name vague common good frank crary cu boulder
veal utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) subject shoot somebody lines 29 organization university tennessee division continuing education article 93108 025818u28037 uicvm uic edu jason kratz u28037 uicvm uic edu writes heard many opinions subject would like hear people net say 're situation pull gun somebody give chance get away decided continue action anyway end shooting killing question \? stay wait cops collect brass \( 're using semi auto \) get \( provided course n't think seen \) \? data point tennessee , friend mine police officer essentially recommends , fade away even perfectly justified 're likely great deal hassle \( side note , carrying gun concealed misdemeanor \) kind laws books regarding type situation \? would likely thing happen stayed waited first offense \? would happen took someone saw caught \? 's one state things , pretty much david veal univ tenn div cont education info services group pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu still remember way laughed , day pushed elevator shaft i'm beginning think n't love anymore weird al
lvc cbnews cb att com \( larry cipriani \) subject guns gone good riddance ! organization ideology busters , inc lines 88 article 1993apr18 000152 2339 gnv ifas ufl edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes loosing question vote , cause considered abomination matter hard try , public opinion set rkba surveys shown public thinks certain types gun control may acceptable believe individual right keep bear arms , police discretion may may firearms end finish clinton administration , rkba null void end clinton administration lot things screwed hell , 'll probably like england tough titty tough titty \? eloquent claim , think clinton big fight ahead thinks 's going pass comprehensive gun legislation sign brady bill gets desk whatever either keep happening , modify acceptable us better discover ways make without firearms sorry , 's possible 's wo n't give either legally illegally , american 's keep firearms number unregistered weapons new york city millions n't even close number violent criminals number cases firearms abuses ruined cause gov't serious stopping violent crime would keep violent criminals jail long long time belong instead letting early release nothing hey , go politics feel like live sword shall die n't believe one bit press , public \( voting public \) , flow history ! like take advice rkba brit way surrender arms soon enough , officers around collect resistance useless watch much star trek actually , understandable attitude brit subject state overwhelm one time necessarily ways resisting oppression without getting caught gov't neighbors help consider immediate threat abstract 'criminal' abstract criminal like ones killed relative mine working carry fucking bad gone way kkk violent solutions passe' undesirable , sometimes unavoidable n't want resist criminal attack means nothing \( \) take chances resisting violent attack , \( b \) stand better chance unharmed someone nothing avoid situations encourage criminals safe possible joke criminals want disarmed population keep criminals preying us best means self defense taken away \? larry cipriani l v cipriani att com
veal utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) subject 2nd amendment dead good ! lines 47 organization university tennessee division continuing education article 1993apr18 001319 2340 gnv ifas ufl edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes yea , millions cases yoy say firearms 'deter' criminals alas , provable provable 's provable number votes vast bill clinton last election accept information available , prove one way refuse accept , nothing provable think actually cases fine , support , n't supported yet national crime survey , secret arm nra , estimates 40 , 000 50 , 000 gun self defenses assaults , considered considerably report broken weapon , form self defense including nothing effective avoiding injury death bulk firarems used unworthy unnesessary opponents posessa cool jakcet want , would argue parking space , would take woman short , trivial worthless causes ok , support hell , support one much ruined cause recovery 's nice near future , federal martials come arms 's nice , 2nd amendment dead accept find another way earth \? 're correct 've nothing lose continuing argue everything gain david veal univ tenn div cont education info services group pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu still remember way laughed , day pushed elevator shaft i'm beginning think n't love anymore weird al
veal utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) subject gun like american express card lines 128 organization university tennessee division continuing education article cmm 0 90 2 thomasp surt ifi uio thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio writes abuse goverment seems one main problems harder gun control would abused goverment \( ! \) either little paranoid \( offence \) mr parsli , take exception verifiable , previous examples levels u governments abusing gun control restrictions n't think paranoid worry abused recent past might abused future many times getting burned sane person stop putting hand stove get new goverment \( elections \? \? \) 'd love long politicians grab power sell pork back constituents , 's lot 's silly suggest 's anything ca n't trust government , therefore government allowed , change governments road lies total government power 've never fan totalitarianism guns 'n criminals weapons used criminals today stolen likely known criminals buy weapons , 's one points gun control gun control strict whole scandinavia \( europe \) , dont problem smuggled guns north american continent europe , matter many people would like drugs illegal 're years canada gun control necessary control guns whole continent , canada always comparable rates u , yet still n't unless tell canadian border much magical mexican border \( shorter far heavily patrolled \) really ca n't accept argument mixing weapons things use one meant cars kill , guns ! , approximately 31 , 000 deaths due guns u , two thirds suicides \( unfortunately n't suicide rates norway \) however , makes per gun death rate half per car death rate issue \( hope \) think agree criminals main problem guns problem , way used \( \? \? \) think discusion interesting think \( ex \) weapons , 's rigth , use kill \( innocent \) people problem humans , guns problem 's humans since stone axes matter simply nobody ever assaulted anybody , whether weapon sort around would totally irrelevent yet weapons built 'd suggest , , murderous impulse humanity pre dates weapons anyway , bosnians et al making excellent attempt kill half thousand years taking away guns , even could , would neither halt killing reduce brutality 50 murders done axes , would impose regulations say ment used trees , axe problem , 's \? \? \( example , n't flame exactly 50 killed guns \) u , approximately 60 murders commited firearms \( 50 handguns , 10 non handguns \) reason say guns , per se , problem , non gun rate exceeds europe 's countries entire violent crime rate n't really think 've got knives fists case , think examples gun control applied u failures , like drug prohibition forms prohibition deal people , wo n't solve problem problem violent crime , n't concentrate tools instead vast majority guns never , ever misused \( order 99 5 entire lifetime gun \) says ca n't make argument gun causes misuse think situation los angeles people buying guns protect good situation \? \? situation good people fear lives recall scenes store owners last riots , protecting shops guns would better , , lost \? rigth way deal problem \? \? problem poverty rage los angeles , n't however , problem becomes violent action , yes , appropriate whether person hurt condition wo n't make less dead burn house examine problem 're referring 're discussing someone violently assaulting , perfectly legitimate response make stop \( hopefully simply letting know 're prepared shoot would enough , mentioned store owners \) everybody buys guns protect criminals \( neighbor guns \) think happen \? \? \( mean everybody gun usa \) 45 households form firearm , usually long gun accounts level access least 100 million americans firearm ownership likely among educated , well whites , group least likely involved violent crime may take 's worth david veal univ tenn div cont education info services group pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu still remember way laughed , day pushed elevator shaft i'm beginning think n't love anymore weird al
fcrary ucsu colorado edu \( frank crary \) subject shoot somebody nntp posting host ucsu colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 32 article 93108 025818u28037 uicvm uic edu jason kratz u28037 uicvm uic edu writes say 're situation pull gun somebody give chance get away decided continue action anyway end shooting killing question \? stay wait cops collect brass \( 're using semi auto \) get \( provided course n't think seen \) \? , would obvious choice armed self defence clearly strongly protected colorado constitution laws state clear cut situation hypothetical , would n't anything fear police \( unless publicly carrying weapon concealed , something i'm habit even , worst 'd deal class 2 misdemeanor \) even situation clear , might worry arrest manslaughter homicide , would still safer wait police leave try avoid police involvement , 'd committing several felonies ruining chances claiming self defence court \( really self defence , would ask , run away hide police \? \) states , however , decision might clear cut someone , say , washington c use gun self defence would automatically guilty several felony violations city 's gun control laws person 's choices would certain conviction couple felonies versus possible conviction half dozen frank crary cu boulder
com \( bill \) subject guns gone good riddance ! reply com \( bill \) organization cmp publications , inc , , ny lines 18 article 1993apr18 000152 2339 gnv ifas ufl edu , jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes surrender arms soon enough , officers around collect resistance useless overwhelm one time certain n't mean post alt french captain borg borg borg \? 'd better rush home hear calling come papa , jrm gnv ifas ufl edu ! , ma'am , construct mnemonic memory circuit , using stone knives spock humble
pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) subject tanks civilians \( silly outdated bill koresh \) summary tanks civilians \( could n't happen read yer history \) organization totally unorganized lines 70 article scottj iamac 1 dml georgetown edu scottj magic dml georgetown edu \( john l scott \) writes picking tanks firing main gun deleted think point missed apparantly acceptable big government \( big brother \? \) use tanks control people , long n't use big gun \( everything else allright \) tanks deployed civilians , let alone firing crew served weaponry \( 50 heavy machine gun crew served \) something press government howl instantly done country civilians , , one shot time light small arms certainly nothing places people behind tank real danger molotov \? round rifle pistol deals anybody approaching one snipers often turn cops guard army gunfire n't know people group \( net \) idea tanks used control civilians , anything pretends free society outrageous big government feels necessary use kind force protests \( even violent \) citizens , suggests government totally control , since effectively government declaring war people government living responsibility , government people people , elites want keep good thing going , citizens would n't feel need resorting acts need squashed military boot people things like become convinced option remains , attempts grievances redressed ignored yes , criminal element exploit , fact remains government acts would n't apt happen still excuse open civilians tanks , heavy machine guns , whatever old makes right' philosophy hallmark government going rogue n't like \? tough simply squash iron boot actually addressing grievances token fashion huge volumes hot air inconvenient sort variation mushroom management keep dark , shit , crush ready folks many liberals trying arrange things monopoly coercive force \( firearms expensive toys \) bill rights \( cuz n't progressive n't fit modern thinking anymore \) unbelievable believe amid smoke , confusion , etc real riot situation , would possible tank get away firing main gun building close range \? one would hear explosion among many explosions loud , going stand like 1000 pound bomb tactical nuke would hole blown wall , rubble , tanks knocking walls , sources buildings turning rubble , covering racket gunfire , including 50 's away , would stand much , could explained musta gas leak think could done reported conditions possible like tank driving quiet street sunday afternoon , turning firing , know would stand , pretty impossible cover john l scott pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc 1 207 \( pat myrto \) seattle , wa else fails , try ! uunet ! pilchuck ! rwing ! pat wisdom two things infinite universe human stupidity , sure former albert einstien
chiu io nosc mil \( francis chiu \) subject guns gone good riddance ! organization san diego state university , college sciences lines 50 nntp posting host io nosc mil x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl7 jrm gnv ifas ufl edu wrote loosing question vote , cause considered abomination matter hard try , public opinion set rkba care show real numbers instead something hci make \? thought , foaming mouth shouting nothing ever said end finish clinton administration , rkba null void tough titty well , 'll wait see , wo n't \? quite living little fantasy \? snip cases firearms abuses ruined cause nothing snip press , public \( voting public \) , flow history ! true , ignorant afraid understand , accept , deal real problems behind violent society proposing gun control band aid solution may refresh memory quote prez \? 's criminals , stupid ! hey , cutting budget prisons \? may someone need remind promised second thought , bother surrender arms soon enough , officers around collect resistance useless overwhelm one time neighbors help consider immediate threat abstract 'criminal' oooh , waco ii , coming living room soon last time turned tv \? ca n't remember \? thought fucking bad gone way kkk violent solutions passe' avoid situations encourage criminals safe possible wait , got , late april fool post , right \? n't think anybody stupid enough post something like good one guys , group getting boring without holly susan francis chiu , professional student , programmer , tax payer
kkopp uxh cso uiuc edu \( koppenhoefer kyle cramm \) subject 2 're poll organization university illinois urbana lines 39 kennejs cs okstate edu \( kennedy james scot \) writes article 1993apr16 cunews carleton ca akasacou alfred carleton ca \( alexander \) writes article veal 729 utkvm1 utk edu veal utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) writes , said spent money guns rather people , canada ridiculous estimated general level average reader rush limbaugh canada per capita spend money people us spend money per capita guns exactly mean say u spends per capita guns canada \? talking u government talking purchase guns private citizens \? referring private citizens point individuals money essentially business , hand , meant u government spends per capita guns canada point relevant , true u needs get priorities straight people important guns say guns n't important i'm saying u government spend per capita guns people something meant us spends per capita guns canada n't really surprising busy protecting western world ussr countries could slack defense spending would like see us spends per capita people canada true apples apples comparison previous post apples oranges
betz gozer idbsu edu \( andrew betz \) subject randy weaver trial update day 4 nntp posting host gozer organization sigsauer fan club lines 87 note trial updates summarized reports idaho statesman local nbc affiliate television station , ktvb channel 7 randy weaver kevin harris trial update day 4 friday , april 16 , 1993 fourth day trial synopsis defense attorney gerry spence cross examined agent cooper repeated objections prosecutor ronald howen spence moved mistrial denied day marked cross examination deputy marshal larry cooper defense attorney gerry spence although spence explicitly stated , one angle must involve destroying credibility agent cooper cooper government 's eyewitness death agent degan spence attacked cooper 's credibility pointing discrepancies cooper 's statements last september made court cooper , things compressed seconds 's difficult remember went first cooper acknowledged carried 9mm colt commando gun barrel thought colt commando revolver ! cooper continued stating federal agents specific plans use weapon started kill weaver 's dog spence asked seven cartridges could fired degan 's 16 rifle degan apparently dead , cooper could say sure degan return fire going spence continued asking many agents \( extent \) cooper discussed last august 's events , cooper responded , 're implying got story together , 're wrong , counselor spence continued advance defense 's version events namely , marshal started shooting killing weaver 's dog cooper disagreed assistant u attorney ronald howen repeatedly objected spence 's cross examination agent cooper , arguing questions repetitive spence wasting time howen also complained spence improperly using cross examination advance defense 's version events u district judge edward lodge sustained many objections however , lawyers persisted judge lodge jury leave room attorneys i'm going play games either counsel personality problem day 1 , start acting like professionals spence told judge , evidence , 'll see agent larry cooper testimony credible , cannot remember sequence events spence continued , 're going find unlikely similarity almost come cookie cutter testimony mr cooper witnesses spence moved mistrial grounds howen 's repeated objections would prevent fair trial , ca n't fair trial jury believes i'm sort , jury believes i'm bending rules engaging delaying tactic i'm violating court orders judge lodge called notion repeated howen 's objections somehow prejudiced jury denied motion mistrial lodge tell howen restrict comments objecting trial resumed prosecution calling fbi special agent greg rampton prosecution 's purpose simply introduce five weapons found cabin evidence however , defense seized opportunity address cooper 's credibility defense attorney ellison matthews \( harris' attorney \) questioned rampton dog rampton stated specific plans kill weaver 's dog without detected matthews rampton read 15 , 1992 transcript rampton said cooper said purpose weapon kill dog without detected , dog chased rampton acknowledged believed cooper said , could remember stated , conduct primary interview deputy cooper , conversations since interview conducted monday , april 19 , 1993 begin fifth day trial scheduled continued cross examination fbi agent greg rampton
betz gozer idbsu edu \( andrew betz \) subject randy weaver trial update day 1 nntp posting host gozer organization sigsauer fan club lines 49 copy first update randy weaver trial large response \( 15 email messages \) , 've decided sufficient interest p g warrant posting file follows hi folks perhaps boise resident list , guess kind falls keep people updated randy weaver kevin harris trial yesterday marked seating jury apparently legal activities occurred jury selected things start today interesting happenned outside dozen weaver supporters showed stage protest outside courthouse one woman carried sign read , stands trial murder vicki \( son 's name forget \) weaver \? evening news said , protesting believe freedom speech freedom religion thought nice sound bite \( grin \) ! news reporter also interviewed guy named tim refused give last name guy , looked like neo nazi also said expected many neo nazis show throughout trial tim handing support weaver harris news footage boise cop telling move along 'd arrest n't know points one perhaps 's law political activity within x feet courthouse something \( happenned first amendment \? ! \? \) ominous local reporter filmed agent gestapo err atf protestors ! welcome world big brother anyhow , gerry spence came asked protestors leave n't think would help weaver 's case said confident , evidence came , weaver would stuff comes available drew
shepard netcom com \( mark shepard \) subject s414 \( brady bill \) loopholes \? keywords brady handguns s414 hr1025 instant check waiting period organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) distribution na lines 40 hi 've finished reading s414 , several questions brady bills \( s414 hr1025 \) 1 current versions brady bill \? status bills \? 've heard 're committee close made law \? 2 s414 hr1025 seem fairly similar important differences missed \? 3 s414 seems serious loopholes s414 n't specify appeals process wrongful denial waiting period , civil lawsuit \( \? \) \( s414 appeals process required instant background check system established , \) b police explicitly liable mistakes denying approving using existing records \( would sue inaccurate record corrected \? \) c s414 includes exception waiting period clause person convince local chief law enforcement officer \( \) immediate threat life , life household member s414 n't say exactly considered threat , place limit long takes issue exception statement true \? misunderstood \? \? 4 s414 , 's stop person clean record buying guns , grinding serial numbers , selling crooks \? minimum , additional laws needed prevent \? min gun counting scheme would needed \( e g , john doe owns n guns \) , s414 passes , would n't surprised see legislation stricter , harder 's plus national gun registration , justified need make brady bill work please comment i'm mainly interested specific problems current legislation n't mean start general discussion merits waiting period bills ever proposed marks shepard netcom com
mail psi net subject 2nd amendment dead good ! reply 1993apr18 001319 2340 gnv ifas ufl edu nntp posting host 127 0 0 1 organization inferno x mailer psilink \( 3 01 \) lines 27 date 18 apr 93 00 13 19 0500 jrm gnv ifas ufl edu yea , millions cases yoy say firearms 'deter' criminals alas , provable case alive thanks gun , provable even twisted logic think actually cases wrong brain trust bulk firarems used unworthy unnesessary opponents huh \? planet \? 2nd amendment dead accept find another way wrong long freedom remains ps get dictionary \( gun month club hmmm glock month sig 226 next \)
earlw apple com \( earl wallace \) subject gun like organization lines 10 nntp posting host apple com article 1993apr16 194708 13273 vax oxford ac uk jaj vax oxford ac uk writes turkey pro pistol automatic weapons fanatics n't seem realize rest us laugh n't make angry , make chuckle remeber , washington seeing consider laughing others civilized behavior \? supposed learn article \? treat people like dogs \? impressed attitude
earlw apple com \( earl wallace \) subject 2nd amendment dead good ! organization lines 22 nntp posting host apple com article 1993apr18 001319 2340 gnv ifas ufl edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes near future , federal martials come arms one help dangerous , thinking , 'criminal' fault 2nd amendment dead accept find another way know , many ways might kick need straighten things country also , people would need replace guns something else , perhaps deadly sprays would make mace oc seem like water would lighter easier conceal guns really old design long tons , one motivated design something better i'm sure could come real nasty stuff tried getting rid guns would get us moving track asap really want , right \? stuff 's smaller , lighter far deadly remember , country 'll really scramble accomplish impossible motivated enough think self defense high list
betz gozer idbsu edu \( andrew betz \) subject guns gone good riddance ! nntp posting host gozer organization sigsauer fan club lines 66 article 1993apr18 000152 2339 gnv ifas ufl edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes loosing 's loosing \? vote , cause considered abomination matter hard try , public opinion set rkba vote n't consider rkba abomination end finish clinton administration , rkba null void tough titty i'm sure sarah brady would delighted hear ranting raving however , clinton publically stated would like repeal second amendment tough titty better discover ways make without firearms number cases firearms abuses ruined cause nothing live sword shall die going make without like people new york city \? know new york city gun ban utopia dream , millions unregistered handguns \? new york city , way , high crime rate perhaps know 's nightmare idaho idaho , police give concealed carry permits anyone 21 without criminal record schemes , waiting periods , gun month , horror horrors ! n't even need permit carry concealed weapon outside city limits \( although need permit concealed carry automobile \) feel hell lot safer boise would gun ban dream state \( e g , washington , c \) press , public \( voting public \) , flow history ! voting public idaho pro gun senators nra endorsed rated ! buy clue , pal surrender arms soon enough , officers around collect resistance useless overwhelm one time neighbors help consider immediate threat abstract 'criminal' get wallet buy another clue millions upon millions pre 1968 \( e , non \) firearms half life approaching eternity exactly tracked feds fucking bad gone way kkk violent solutions passe' avoid situations encourage criminals safe possible gun control laws passed protect kkk blacks ! drew betz gozer idbsu edu brought terminal free state idaho outlaw rights , outlaws rights spook fodder fema , nsa , clinton , gore , insurrection , nsc , semtex , neptunium , terrorist , cia , mi5 , mi6 , kgb , deuterium
organization university illinois chicago , academic computer center jason kratz u28037 uicvm uic edu subject gun like american express card distribution usa clem handheld com 1993apr17 ucsu colorado edu lines 31 article 1993apr17 ucsu colorado edu , fcrary ucsu colorado edu \( frank crary \) says never seen anyone else practice marksmanship taking gun coat fast possible start shooting recommended way practice ccw , aim alone goo defense , ca n't get gun rapidly true way done little unusual looked like practicing shoot someone point forgot bring \( nothing gang member \) illegal carry concealed weapon area \( state illinois matter \) say people illinois n't carry concealed weapons practicing like people around n't bright idea n't necessarily conflict practicing concealed weapon self defence practicing shoot someone armed self defence occasionally involve shooting attacker frank crary cu boulder agree n't practice carry gun self defense likely would big trouble situation arise jason u28037 uicvm cc uic edu
organization university illinois chicago , academic computer center jason kratz u28037 uicvm uic edu subject guns gone good riddance ! lines 18 article 1993apr18 000152 2339 gnv ifas ufl edu , jrm gnv ifas ufl edu says ah love posts like many people already replied one knew would i'm going say much seems like someone decided post see many people would get mad reply going ignore one thing say see surrender arms soon enough , officers around collect resistance useless overwhelm one time listen buddy , 're going quote star trek get quote right resistance futile get right next time \) jason u28037 uicvm cc uic edu
organization university illinois chicago , academic computer center jason kratz u28037 uicvm uic edu subject shoot somebody 1993apr18 uoft02 utoledo edu lines 40 article 1993apr18 uoft02 utoledo edu , steiner jupiter cse utoledo edu \( jason 'think ! ' steiner \) says jason kratz \( u28037 uicvm uic edu \) writes say 're situation pull gun somebody give chance get away decided continue action anyway end shooting killing question \? stay wait cops collect brass \( 're using semi auto \) get \( provided course n't think seen \) \? kind laws books regarding type situation \? would likely thing happen stayed waited first offense \? would happen took someone saw caught \? idea much trouble 'd get taking like \? leaving scene auto accident bad enough ! killing someone leaving 10 times worse 's going seriously believe self defense took time collect spent \? officer , reload ! well , like someone said reply really depends area live see david veal 's reply heard exactly thing said reply fade away think n't seen \( heard police officer \) record though talking tennessee everywhere even could get away , 're still nice legal , keep law abiding status send story armed citizen column american rifleman jason jason u28037 uicvm cc uic edu
organization university illinois chicago , academic computer center jason kratz u28037 uicvm uic edu subject shoot somebody veal 744 utkvm1 utk edu lines 43 article veal 744 utkvm1 utk edu , veal utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) says article 93108 025818u28037 uicvm uic edu jason kratz u28037 uicvm uic edu heard many opinions subject would like hear people net say 're situation pull gun somebody give chance get away decided continue action anyway end shooting killing question \? stay wait cops collect brass \( 're using semi auto \) get \( provided course n't think seen \) \? data point tennessee , friend mine police officer essentially recommends , fade away even perfectly justified 're likely great deal hassle \( side note , carrying gun concealed misdemeanor \) exactly heard fade away nobody saw kind evidence would able get catch \( assuming either collected brass revolver \) \? kind laws books regarding type situation \? would likely thing happen stayed waited first offense \? would happen took someone saw caught \? 's one state things , pretty much guess 's time take trip library look illinois statutes \) record folks i'm asking i'm curious i'm trying find people read stuff like david veal univ tenn div cont education info services group pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu still remember way laughed , day pushed elevator shaft i'm beginning think n't love anymore weird al jason u28037 uicvm cc uic edu
betz gozer idbsu edu \( andrew betz \) subject gun like nntp posting host gozer organization sigsauer fan club lines 84 article 1993apr16 194708 13273 vax oxford ac uk jaj vax oxford ac uk writes turkey pro pistol automatic weapons fanatics n't seem realize rest us laugh n't make angry , make chuckle remeber , washington seeing warning follow ah , british sense humor probably got real gut buster going ira blew kid couple weeks ago , huh \? course , britain , government ordered defenseless , way coping violent criminals laugh victims pick truck front car friend bumper sticker proclaiming gun control firm grip 45 i'm sure thought pretty cool n't know 45 preference 9mm n't realize took photo back truck , showed friends got back vancouver , canada \( i'm originally \) people basic stupidity sticker , even greater stupidity person put first place ! \) ah , canada criminals n't bother checking see victims home break america 's little different , see criminals worry bit getting shot , frequently check see anyone 's home knew somebody else went one gun mart places , could experience sight people putting guns ammo shopping carts ! n't believe drove one vegas last year ! ! ! 've heard gun world phoenix , arizona , fantastic ! i'm hoping visit soon live britain , see rest civilized world perceives gun nut morons bbc recently referred american pistols , automatic weapons , etc appropriately called national eccentricity ah , britain n't place 're guilty proven innocent \? tell , mr jaj vax oxford ac uk n't britain come begging us gun nut morons early 1940s guns defend hitler \? seems though supposedly enlightened government disarmed aw chaps , give guns hitler man starts threaten , always hit yanks guns 've got bloody eccentric habit guns , know hand shotgun , 's thank problem canada , hear , suffering national eccentricity , easy purchase weapons smuggled cross border ai n't amazing black markets work \? damn drugs south america keep coming borders , , even though 've banned guess might well legalize makes want send fifty bucks libertarian party thinking , n't \? anyway , gun nut rush limbaugh fans , please keep brady evil liberal media plots 're damn funny ! provide endless amounts entertainment arguments examples someone allowed carry piece ! keep us chuckling ! close minded ignorance without parallel guess 's happens 're raised subject without rights type desire hold power hell , miss nra ads gerald i'm ! like monty python sketches ! chuckle cops beat senseless get confession laugh silly find confession valid court hey mate , justice , british style drew betz gozer idbsu edu brought terminal free state idaho outlaw rights , outlaws rights spook fodder fema , nsa , clinton , gore , insurrection , nsc , semtex , neptunium , terrorist , cia , mi5 , mi6 , kgb , deuterium
keith orion ic cmc ca \( keith de \) subject cdn gun laws organization canadian microelectronics corporation lines 37 moderator nice summary , keith , thanks talked federal dept justice \( doj , ottawa \) try clarify bunch things regarding changes canadian gun laws posting informational purposes questions email , followup p g 1 still technically feasible \( almost impossible \) get concealed carry permit canada contrary told police officer 2 still legal use lethal force \( firearm \) protect life , also contrary officer told guns must stored locked unloaded , however 3 regarding hi capacity magazines , still clear exempt managed province general idea exempt persons receive letter form authorizing possess high capacity magazines apparently , authorization specify many allowed possess dealers allowed order high capacity mags allowed possess , allowed stock 4 high capacity magazines converted comply new limits considered prohibited weapons amendments regulations specify possible methods alter magazines manufacturers \( beretta \) marketing reduced capacity magazines \( god knows much 'll charge \) covers discussed typed memory , take gospel lawyer refuse play one tv keith p de , p eng ontario , , nfa , sfc , keith orion ic cmc ca rifle pistol club
jim wray yob sccsi com \( jim wray \) subject sign times organization ye olde bailey bbs houston , tx 713 520 1569 lines 31 reply jim wray yob sccsi com \( jim wray \) nntp posting host cs utexas edu article morning 's houston post negotiators send food rebellious inmates humanitarian gesture speaking ohio prison riot killed least one hostage guards know 's group mindset appears common rule lately wo n't give bd 's waco treat criminals deserving humanitarian gestures another indicator criminal caste seems enjoy today 's society victims law abiding citizens makes criminal precious leaders system \? could criminal one tools authorities using excuse rights negation trying upon law abiding citizen name crime control n't solve crime problem citizen could n't held hostage help crime problem solved favor citizen victim expense criminal none crap rico gun banning could used excuses work agenda would control every move thought olx 2 2 explain , would n't understand ye olde bailey bbs 713 520 1569 \( v 32bis \) 713 520 9566 \( v 32bis \) houston , texas yob sccsi com home alt cosuard
sserve cc adfa oz au \( geoff miller \) subject ban firearms ! organization australian defence force academy , canberra , australia lines 18 jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes firearms tend fall low dollar pound area would economic smuggle production would local many people skill motivation assemble worthwhile firearms scratch high ranking crime figures could obtain imported uzis , average person , average thug , would lucky get zip gun would pay nose australian customs service make public statement parliamentary committee last year weapons smuggling problem able control \? possibly criminals n't grasp economics \? geoff miller \( g miller adfa edu au \) computer centre , australian defence force academy
gaucher sam cchem berkeley edu subject 2nd amendment dead good ! organization university california , berkeley lines 49 nntp posting host sam cchem berkeley edu originator gaucher sam cchem berkeley edu oh christ , go i'm actually going assume serious posting , fool article 1993apr18 001319 2340 gnv ifas ufl edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes yea , millions cases yoy say firearms 'deter' criminals alas , provable think actually cases suppose take word ever think many people use firearms protect might admit ridiculous laws exist forbidding concealed carry \? bulk firarems used unworthy unnesessary opponents posessa cool jakcet want , would argue parking space , would take woman short , trivial worthless causes already cool jacket ride bicycle work park behind desk woman decides go someone else , 'd disappointed killing new probably frankly , 've never met woman worth killing anyway \( , ar 15 chrome barrel , 's worth killing ! \) \) much ruined cause recovery near future , federal martials come arms one help dangerous , thinking , 'criminal' fault pinhead know something rest us n't \? i'm worried federal martials coming get guns government ca n't seem keep violent criminals jail since n't enough prison space , legal system burdened anyway going put millions gun owners wo n't fork weapons \? maybe 'd like volunteer services humble abode , since obviously feel sooooo strongly 2nd amendment dead accept find another way argument rendered useless accept find another newsgroup lee gaucher nra opinions gaucher sam cchem berkeley edu one else 's
lvc cbnews cb att com \( larry cipriani \) subject ohio house bill 278 \( otto beatty 's military weapons ban \) organization ideology busters , inc distribution usa keywords otto beatty , military weapons , registration , sales ban lines 486 note , ohio legislation unlike federal legislation , shows entire law would changed legislation parts capitals , rest \( e , current law regular type \) introduced general regular session h b 278 1993 1994 beatty bill amend 11 , 2923 17 , 2923 20 enact section 2923 181 revised code expand dangerous ordnance include military weapons use bolt action , increase penalty violation prohibition possession dangerous ordnance , prohibit person acquiring military weapon act 's effective date , require military weapons acquired purpose prior act 's effective dte , prohibit person importing , manufacturing , selling military weapon , declare emergency enacted general assembly state ohio section 1 sections 2923 11 , 2923 17 2923 20 amended section 2923 181 revised code enacted read follows sec 2923 11 used section 2923 11 2923 24 revised code \( \) deadly weapon means instrument , device , thing capable inflicting death , designed specially adapted use weapon , possessed , carried , used weapon \( b \) \( 1 \) firearm means deadly weapon capable expelling one projectiles action explosive propellant includes unloaded firearm , firearm readily rendered \( 2 \) determining whether firearm capable expelling one projectiles action explosive propellant , fact may rely upon evidence , including , limited , representations actions individual exercising control firearm \( c \) handgun means firearm designed fired held one hand \( \) semi automatic firearm means firearm designed specially adapted fire single cartridge automatically chamber cartridge ready fire , single function trigger \( e \) automatic firearm means firearm designed specially adapted fire succession cartridges single function trigger automatic firearm also means semi automatic firearm designed specially adapted fire thirty one cartridges without reloading , firearm 22 caliber short , long , long rifle cartridges \( f \) sawed firearm means shotgun barrel less eighteen inches long , rifle barrel less sixteen inches long , shotgun rifle less twenty six inches long overall \( g \) zip gun means following \( 1 \) firearm crude manufacture \( 2 \) device , including without limitation starter 's pistol , designed firearm , specially adapted use firearm \( 3 \) industrial tool , signalling device , safety device , designed firearm , designed capable use firearm , possessed , carried , used firearm \( h \) explosive device means device designed specially adapted cause physical harm persons property means explosion , consisting explosive substance agency means detonate explosive device includes without limitation bomb , explosive demolition device , blasting cap containing explosive charge , pressure vessel knowingly arranged explode \( \) incendiary device means firebomb , device designed specially adapted cause physical harm persons property means fire , consisting incendiary substance agency means ignite \( j \) ballistic knife means knife detachable blade propelled spring operated mechanism \( k \) dangerous ordinance means following , except provided division \( l \) section \( 1 \) automatic sawed firearms zip gun , ballistic knife \( 2 \) explosive device incendiary device \( 3 \) , , , , , tnt , acid , high explosives , , , , , , high explosive plastic explosives dynamite , blasting , dynamite , , liquid oxygen blasting explosives , blasting powder , blasting agents explosive substance sufficient power particularly suitable use military explosive , use mining , , , \( 4 \) firearm , rocket launcher , , artillery piece grenade , mine , bomb , torpedo , similar weapon , designed manufactured military purposes , ammunition weapon \( 5 \) firearm muffler silencer \( 6 \) military weapon \( 7 \) detachable magazine , magazine , drum , belt , feed strip , similar device capacity , readily restored converted accept , fifteen rounds ammunition \( 8 \) combination parts intended owner use converting firearm device dangerous ordinance \( l \) dangerous ordnance include following \( 1 \) firearm , including military weapon ammunition weapon , regardless actual age , employs cap obsolete ignition system designed safe use black powder , \( 2 \) pistol , rifle , shotgun , designed suitable sporting purposes , unless firearm either following \( \) military weapon issued modified , ammunition weapon \( b \) automatic sawed firearm \( 3 \) cannon piece , regardless actual age , type accepted use prior , mechanical , hydraulic , , system absorbing returning tube battery without carriage , designed safe use black powder \( 4 \) black powder , , caps possessed lawfully used fire cannon type defined division \( l \) \( 3 \) section displays , celebrations , organized matches shoots , target practice , smokeless black powder , primers , caps lawfully used propellant ignition device small arms small arms ammunition \( 5 \) dangerous ordinance inert cannot readily rendered activated , kept trophy , , , museum piece \( 6 \) device expressly excepted definition destructive device pursuant gun control act 1968 , 82 stat 1213 , 18 u c 921 \( \) \( 4 \) , amended , regulations issued act \( \) military means following \( 1 \) firearm originally manufactured military use , copy firearm , firearm bolt action firearm \( 2 \) model following firearms semi automatic firearm rifle model copy following firearms semi automatic firearm rifle \( \) ar 180 \( b \) auto ordnance thompson models 1 \( c \) \( \) poly tech ak \( e \) china sports ak 47 \( f \) mitchell ak 47 76 \( g \) barrett light fifty model \( h \) ar 70 \( \) auto rifle \( j \) m900 100 \( k \) colt ar 15 \( l \) commando arms carbine , mark 111 , mark 45 , mark 9 \( \) universal 5000 carbine , enforcer \( n \) american arms arm 1 39 \( \) max 1 max 2 \( p \) fn , fn fn \( q \) mas 223 \( r \) feather 9 \( \) federal kc 900 xc 450 \( \) ar arm \( u \) high tech carbine \( v \) koch hk 91 , hk 93 , hk 94 , psg 1 \( w \) tac 1 carbine \( x \) ruger mini 14 sf folding stock model \( \) sig 57 500 series \( z \) springfield armory sar 48 , g 3 , bm 59 alpine , carbine \( aa \) sterling mk 6 mark 7 \( bb \) aug \( cc \) uzi carbine mini carbine \( dd \) , 76 , 78 , carbine \( ee \) weaver arms nighthawk \( ff \) military military m1 carbine 30 \( gg \) springfield armory assault \( hh \) thompson 5 drum magazine \( ii \) commando universe 5000 carbine \( jj \) 11 without silencer \( kk \) spectre auto carbine \( \) \( mm \) ap 74 ap 74 commando \( nn \) america israeli fn \( oo \) sks carbine \( pp \) sniper \( qq \) emf ap 74 \( rr \) johnson p \( ss \) sks \( tt \) partisan avenger \( uu \) sg 550 sp sg 551 sp \( vv \) 16 \( ww \) wilkinson terry carbine \( 3 \) model following firearms semi automatic firearm pistol model copy following firearms semi automatic firearm pistol \( \) auto pistol \( b \) 100 p auto pistol \( c \) nj iv , mp 9 , mp 45 \( \) feather mini \( e \) high tech \( f \) holmes mp 83 mp 22 \( g \) tec 9 scorpion 22 \( h \) johnson enforcer \( \) mac 10 mac 11 \( j \) mitchell arms spectre auto \( k \) \( l \) sterling mk 7 \( \) uzi pistol \( n \) universal enforcer \( \) wilkinson linda auto pistol \( 4 \) model following firearms semi automatic firearm shotgun model copy following firearms semi automatic firearm shotgun \( \) 12 law 12 \( b \) striker 12 street sweeper \( c \) m1 super 90 \( \) 500 \( e \) 12 auto shotgun sec 2923 17 \( \) \( 1 \) person shall knowingly acquire , , carry dangerous ordnance \( 2 \) person shall knowingly use dangerous ordnance \( b \) section apply following \( 1 \) officers , agents , employees state united states , members armed forces united states organized militia state , law enforcement officers , extent person authorized acquire , , carry , use dangerous ordnance acting within scope duties \( 2 \) , manufacturers , dealers , users explosives , license user permit issued effect pursuant organized crime control act 1970 , 84 stat 952 , 18 u c 843 , amendments additions act , respect explosives explosive devices lawfully acquired , possessed , carried , used laws state applicable federal law \( 3 \) , , dealers license deal destructive devices ammunition , issued effect pursuant gun control act 1968 , 82 stat 1213 18 u c 923 amendments additions act , respect dangerous ordnance lawfully acquired , possessed , carried , used laws state applicable federal law \( 4 \) persons surplus ordnance sold , , given secretary army pursuant stat 62 263 , 10 u c , , , amendments additions act , respect dangerous ordnance lawfully possessed used purpose specified section \( 5 \) owners dangerous ordnance registered national firearms registration transfer record pursuant act october 22 , 1968 , 82 stat 1229 , 26 u c 5841 , amendments additions , regulations issued act \( 6 \) carriers , , others engaged business transporting storing goods hire , respect dangerous ordnance lawfully transported stored usual course business compliance laws state applicable federal law \( 7 \) holders license temporary permit issued effect pursuant section 2923 18 revised code , respect dangerous ordnance lawfully acquired , possessed , carried , used purposes manner specified license permit \( c \) division \( \) \( 1 \) section apply acquisition , , carrying dangerous ordnance military weapon following apply \( 1 \) person , , carries dangerous ordnance question acquired effective date amendment item legitimate research , scientific , educational , industrial , proper purpose \( 2 \) later close business seventh day effective date amendment , person acquired dangerous ordnance question accordance division \( c \) \( 1 \) section submitted application pursuant section 2923 181 revised code license carry application denied valid license issued person \( \) divisions \( \) \( 1 \) \( 2 \) section apply acquisition , , carrying , using dangerous ordnance described division \( k \) \( 7 \) section 2923 11 revised code acquired prior effective date amendment \( e \) whoever violates section quilty unlawful possession dangerous ordnance , aggravated felony first degree sec 2923 181 \( \) person acquired military weapon effective date section shall file written application license carry military weapon sheriff county safety director police chief municipal corporation applicant resides principal place business application shall filed later close business seventh day effective date section shall accompanied filing fee fifty dollars person shall file separate application pay separate filing fee military weapon intends carry application shall contain following information \( 1 \) name , age , address , occupation , business address applicant , applicant natural person , name , address , principal place business applicant , applicant corporation \( 2 \) description military weapon license requested , including serial number identification marks \( 3 \) statement purpose military weapon acquired possessed , carried , used \( 4 \) information issuing authority may require giving effect section \( 5 \) oath applicant information application true \( b \) \( 1 \) later close business fourteenth day application license carry military weapon filed division \( \) section , issuing authority shall either approve application issue license applicant deny application send letter denial ordinary mail applicant conducting necessary investigation , issuing authority shall issue license applicant determines satisfies following criteria \( \) applicant twenty one years age older , applicant natural person \( b \) appears applicant possess carry military weapon item legitimate , scientific , educational , industrial , proper purpose \( c \) appears applicant sufficient competence carry military weapon proper precautions taken ensure security military weapon safety persons property \( \) applicant prohibited law carrying dangerous ordnance \( 2 \) license issued pursuant division \( b \) \( 1 \) section shall valid one year date issuance license shall renewed pursuant division \( c \) section \( c \) \( 1 \) except provided division \( c \) \( 3 \) section , person issued license division \( b \) \( 1 \) section shall renew license filing application renewal regular mail sheriff county safety director police chief municipal corporation issuing authority license application renewal shall filed annually later one year date license issued last renewed \( 2 \) sheriff safety director peace officer municipal corporation shall make available applications renewal license issued division \( b \) \( 1 \) section application applicant , oath , shall update information submitted previous application license renewal license application renewal license shall accompanied fee five dollars applicant shall file seperate application renewal pay seperate renewal fee military weapon intends continue carry \( 3 \) person changed residence principal place business location outside jurisdiction issuing authority subsequent issuance renewal license section shall renew license filing application manner prescribed division \( \) section sheriff county safety director police chief municipal corporation resides principal place business making application renew license change residence place business , applicant shall give notice change address regular mail original issuing authority license state fire marshall notification forms prescribed sheriff , safety director , police chief seeks renewal \( \) license carry military weapon shall identify person issued , identify military weapon issued , state purpose identified division \( b \) \( 1 \) \( b \) section military weapon possessed carried , state expiration date , list restrictions carrying military weapon prescribed laws state applicable federal law \( e \) person issued license carry military weapon section changes address shall notify issuing authority change address later ninety days change occurred \( f \) issuing authority shall forward state fire marshall copy license issued renewed section state fire marshall shall keep permanent file licenses issued renewed section \( g \) issuing authority shall cause application fee fifty dollars , filed division \( \) section , deposited general fund county corporation served issuing authority issuing authority shall cause two dollars fifty cents renewal fee , filed division \( c \) section , deposited general fund county municipal corporation served issuing authority shall send two dollars fifty cents renewal fee treasurer state deposit state treasury credit general revenue fund \( h \) whoever violates division \( \) section guilty failing apply military weapon , felony fourth degree whoever violates division \( c \) section guilty failing apply renewal license military weapon , misdemeanor first degree \( \) military weapon licensed required section , defined section 01 revised code subject forfeiture section 43 revised code sec 20 \( \) person shall following \( 1 \) import , manufacture , possess sale , sell , furnish person military weapon \( 2 \) recklessly sell , lend , give , furnish firearm person prohibited section 2923 13 2923 15 revised code acquiring using firearm , recklessly sell , lend , give , furnish dangerous ordnance person prohibited section 2923 13 , 2923 15 , 2923 17 revised code acquiring using dangerous ordnance \( 3 \) possess firearm dangerous ordnance purpose dispose violation division \( \) section \( 4 \) manufacture , possess sale , sell , furnish person law enforcement agency authorized use police work , brass knuckles , , billy , , , knife , knife , gravity knife , similar weapon \( 5 \) transferring dangerous ordnance another , fail require exhibit identification , license , permit showing authorized acquire dangerous ordnance pursuant section 2923 17 revised code , fail take complete record transaction forward copy record sheriff county safety director police chief municipality transaction takes place \( 6 \) knowingly fail report law enforcement authorities loss theft firearm dangerous ordnance person 's possession control \( b \) whoever violates section quilty unlawful transactions weapons violation division \( \) \( 1 \) section aggravated felony first degree violation division \( \) \( 2 \) \( 3 \) section felony third degree violation division \( \) \( 4 \) \( 5 \) section misdemeanor second degree violation division \( 6 \) section fourth degree section 2 existing section 2923 11 , 2923 17 2923 20 revised code hereby repealed section 3 act hereby declared emergency measure necessary immediate preservation public peace , health , safety reason necessity immediate action , act prohibit continued purchase , possession , use military weapons result substantial threat death injury public caused misuse improper use weapons therefore , act shall go immediate effect larry cipriani l v cipriani att com
gaucher sam cchem berkeley edu subject guns gone good riddance ! organization university california , berkeley lines 77 nntp posting host sam cchem berkeley edu originator gaucher sam cchem berkeley edu article 1993apr18 000152 2339 gnv ifas ufl edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes loosing question ca n't spell question vote , cause considered abomination matter hard try , public opinion set rkba must reading different public opinion polls agree misguided public would like see assault weapons banned \( mainly lied media frequency use violent crime 1 \) , public opinion dead set rkba bet idiots like metzenbaum schumer would seeing foolish bills getting passed congress lot easier governments go broke longer protect citizens bet american people start really appreciate usefulness firearms contrary might think , time probably side , end finish clinton administration , rkba null void tough titty yeah , right n't hold breath condolences discovery uncomfortable glands , nothing issue hand ridiculous tripe deleted press , public \( voting public \) , flow history ! yeah , liberal press n't like us much , ca n't really expect coherent thought anyway opinions based desire appear politically correct facts \( provided fbi , 'd bother put go library read \) friends anti gun , without exception none bases opinions facts would rather believe \( despite evidence contrary \) disarming law abiding citizens would make world civilized , really make us sheep would rather pitiful liberal white guilt society driven criminal rob , rape , murder support spending millions public dollars protecting rights scum already demonstrated regard society laws ignore fact areas strictest gun control \( nyc , dc \) worst crime areas little gun control \( vt , nh , id \) little crime comparison ignore otherwise would need confront fact law abiding citizens guns ones causing trouble society oh , certainly ca n't accept ! guess faith crime starts making significant neighborhoods starts directly hurting families , probably whistle different tune better hope n't late surrender arms soon enough , officers around collect resistance useless overwhelm one time hmmm n't expecting company tonight might able whip quick cheese cracker plate , probably bring drinks time vacuum rug \? fucking bad gone way kkk violent solutions passe' avoid situations encourage criminals safe possible i'm glad ended posting medication seems worn lee gaucher nra opinions gaucher sam cchem berkeley edu one else 's
seth adam eliot se08 andrew cmu edu subject 2nd amendment dead good ! organization doctoral student , materials science engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 58 nntp posting host po3 andrew cmu edu reply 1993apr18 001319 2340 gnv ifas ufl edu excerpts netnews talk politics guns 18 apr 93 2nd amendment dead good ! jrm gnv ifas ufl edu yea , millions cases yoy say firearms 'deter' criminals alas , provable think actually cases excerpted letter wrote ago although less apparent researched facts , personal protection legitimate reason sport private citizen gun recent research dr gary kleck florida state university school criminology 1 found handguns often used victims defeat crime criminals commit \( 645 , 000 vs 580 , 000 respectively study \) figures even encouraging consider number crimes never occur presence gun hands law abiding private citizen national institute justice study ten state prisons across country found 39 felons surveyed aborted least one crime believed intended victim armed , 57 agreed criminals worried meeting armed victim running police 2 one heinous crimes women country recent observation women purchasing handguns defense response present danger assaults taken encouraging news events orlando florida indicator late 1960 's female populace plagued series brutal assaults publicity record number women buying guns obtaining training resulted 88 decrease rape area , city size country experience decrease crime year additionally , 1979 us justice department study 32 , 000 attempted rapes showed overall , rape attempted , completion rate 36 woman defends gun , completion rate drops 3 1 g kleck , point blank guns violence america de , ny , 1991 2 jd wright ph rossi armed considered dangerous survey felons firearms , de , ny , 1986 unlike cats dogs never scratch wash become sad try figure wrong dave barry seth eliot dept material science engineering carnegie mellon univerity , pittsburgh , pa arpa eliot cmu edu se08 andrew cmu edu bitnet se08 andrew
descartes uwaterloo ca \( tn \) subject definition 2nd organization university waterloo lines 9 debate second amendment arguments continue well regulated militia means practical terms however , authority area , binding court decision matter even decision area subject higher court anyone facts legal precedent , preferably supreme court decision specific meaning 2nd amendment \?
mikey ccwf cc utexas edu \( strider \) subject cnn sale organization university texas austin , austin tx lines 40 distribution usa nntp posting host louie cc utexas edu article 93106 cmuvm bitnet 34aej7d cmuvm bitnet writes article 2001 150 uupcb yob sccsi com , jim wray yob sccsi com \( jim wray \) says bill vojak bv read paper ted turner wants trim bv media holdings putting cnn sale 1 potential bv bidder \? time warner course sigh need \( maybe 's time us , nra , goa , , , et al band together buy cnn voice would n't broadcast truth change able air favorable pro gun item two would like see happen n't think n't think average gun owner take notice happening break door go record publicly effect contribute minimum 1 , 000 00 buy fund organized made viable anybody else want put money mouth \? \) ar 50 million gun owners 's big realistic got hold cnn , anti gun bullshit would stop right wo n't happen nobody get ass make happen nuts join ranks someone ability actually put thing together get enough support , 'll also contribute 1000 effort jeeze , people , i'm student , job yet , put hard earned savings means shot getting truth told airwaves count mike ruff , thine r e r mikey ccwf cc utexas edu self true polonius would sacrifice essential liberties little temporary safety deserve neither liberty safety b franklin
mikey ccwf cc utexas edu \( strider \) subject guns backcountry \? thanks organization university texas austin , austin tx lines 34 nntp posting host louie cc utexas edu reimer uinpla npl uiuc edu \( paul e reimer \) writes lot automobile accidents , atleast regulation try combat got drivers license , take drivers safety class licensed drive car must registered must \( least live \) liability insurance driving car \( someone else accident \) hmm , would n't manditory saftey classes , registration owner gun , manditory liability insurance nice gun owners i'm sure others pointed , none measures required property license , car registered inspected , insurance safety training classes , operate vehicle premises going make use dubious analogy , least make accurate way , texas drive car public \( proper \) , ordinary civilian ca n't carry gun legally public save life wo n't even consider registration , safety classes , liability insurance unless get federal law repealing local , state , federal gun control laws second amendment , non discretionary federal weapons carry permit , good anywhere united states come , wanted analogy mike ruff , thine r e r mikey ccwf cc utexas edu self true polonius would sacrifice essential liberties little temporary safety deserve neither liberty safety b franklin
mikey ccwf cc utexas edu \( strider \) subject guns gone good riddance ! organization university texas austin , austin tx lines 79 nntp posting host louie cc utexas edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes loosing loosing \? well , 'll avoid spelling flames see person make question oh , 's lots question people becoming aware day rights threatened , much nra membership growing rate nearly 2 , 000 per day slowly gaining rightful voice , despite biases , prejudices , veiled motives liberal media anti gun politicians win vote , cause considered abomination matter hard try , public opinion set rkba base \? highly skewed poll conducted nbc news \? group faked gm pickup explosions make news \? right end finish clinton administration , rkba null void tough titty true face even greater obstacles rights , betrayed lying politicians swear oath protect constitution enemies , foreign domestic people take many lies better discover ways make without firearms number cases firearms abuses ruined cause nothing live sword shall die criminals live murder shall die honest , law abiding citizens need fear count , however , evidently die \( least \) ignorance number firearms self defenses shall spell ultimate victory press , public \( voting public \) , flow history ! flow history founding fathers , managed successfully form first real free republic face planet , republic become model others follow press us , selfish motivations people soon realize depths deceit spread media , ill directed power people us surrender arms soon enough , officers around collect resistance useless overwhelm one time neighbors help consider immediate threat abstract 'criminal' shall never submit illegal , unconstitutional police state take vow uphold constitution , shall defend country tyrannical government gone mad , become necessary fucking bad gone way kkk violent solutions passe' avoid situations encourage criminals safe possible sheep , shall bow anyone else seeks control life unarmed target surest way encouraging criminals , believe , shall avoid much possible shall safe possible answer violence option exists , shall surely answer mike ruff , thine r e r mikey ccwf cc utexas edu self true polonius would sacrifice essential liberties little temporary safety deserve neither liberty safety b franklin
mikey ccwf cc utexas edu \( strider \) subject 2nd amendment dead good ! organization university texas austin , austin tx lines 44 nntp posting host louie cc utexas edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes yea , millions cases yoy say firearms 'deter' criminals alas , provable think actually cases think wrong ask fbi 've got proof look bulk firarems used unworthy unnesessary opponents posessa cool jakcet want , would argue parking space , would take woman short , trivial worthless causes lie like snake vast majority 200 million firearms country never used anger feelings notwithstanding much ruined cause recovery near future , federal martials come arms one help dangerous , thinking , 'criminal' fault overcome kind blind , pig headed , utterly stupid idiocy others spout vain attempt agendas make truth known , despite best efforts contrary 2nd amendment dead accept find another way second amendment wo n't dead unless repealed wo n't happen ever accept find another way try control 's lives , see , fooled mike ruff , thine r e r mikey ccwf cc utexas edu self true polonius would sacrifice essential liberties little temporary safety deserve neither liberty safety b franklin
pspod hooch lerc nasa gov \( steve podleski \) subject friends like l neil smith organization nasa lewis research center cleveland , ohio lines 15 nntp posting host hooch lerc nasa gov papresco undergrad math uwaterloo ca \( paul prescod \) writes guns get , far fewer , far less people die statistical evidence back claim requires another limitation citizenry freedom \? steve podleski phone 216 433 4000 nasa lewis research center cleveland , ohio 44135 email pspod hooch lerc nasa gov
hadcrjam admin uh edu \( miller , jimmy \) subject batf fbi murders almost everyone waco today ! 4 19 organization university houston administrative computing lines 37 distribution world nntp posting host uhad2 admin uh edu x news reader vms news 1 24 reply jmd cube handheld com 's message 20 apr 1993 12 34 13 gmt clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com writes article c5rynw iz8 news udel edu roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) writes balance gut reaction question authority together independent facts see video usually adopt scenario simplest plausible generally believe conspiracy theories involve complicated unlikely scenarios answer question one else permitted talk koresh , koresh lawyer , \( \? \) spoke person several times last weeks cannot denied left alone , would fire yesterday strikes tad x done note done , z would never happened tend place tha responsibility group person actually committing act , forced , take extreme example , british northern ireland , ira would forced place bombs shopping centers said , whole sorry story totally , utterly fucked mess get go semper fi , jammer jim miller texas university '89 '91 n't speak uh , bad , could use help become one student billing system student billing system power finds way take stand stand , ordinary man rik emmet , gil moore , mike levine triumph
kdw icd ab com \( kenneth whitehead \) subject letter president nntp posting host sora icd ab com organization allen bradley company , inc lines 46 's copy letter i'm e mailing address 75300 3115 compuserve com william j clinton president united states america mr president writing express utter outrage conduct various government agencies regards tragedy waco demand dismissal resignation lloyd , secretary treasury , bears responsibility initial helicopter grenade attack atf branch davidians , janet reno , authorized final assault day warsaw ghetto revolt would truly appreciate would make sure something like never happens watch respectfully , kenneth whitehead get involved , gang 's republic let 's take back much willing believe government 's side waco story allowed hear survivors far , 've gotten censored people cover 'd really like know got press , complained loudly kept front lines gulf war , obedient lap dogs waco kind makes wonder called freedom press n't highly overrated ken whitehead \( kdw odin icd ab com \)
andy sail stanford edu \( andy freeman \) subject insane gun toting wackos unite ! ! ! organization computer science department , stanford university distribution na lines 38 article 1576 sdrc com sony1 sdrc com \( rob davis \) writes know many deaths year caused self inflicted gun shot wounds people wearing thigh holsters \? , several breakdowns accidental shootings 've never seen one specifically provides info davis insists , 'd love cite fall , example , land handgun cause sudden blow , gun discharge wrong 's one gun design happen , supposed carried hammer unloaded chamber \( gun turns cylinder loaded cylinder hammer words , carried safe manner \) handgun designs n't property trigger n't pulled , hammer ca n't hit firing pin number people killed manner far outweighs number deaths caused animal attacks wacko attacks combined breakdowns include category safely say davis right claims , large negative number people killed animals , know number killings wackos reasonably large number accidents due gun failures \( superset described circumstance \) near zero find figures n't believe please include cite us like looking context make sure source excludes types accidents suicides \( gun cleaning accident police speak family needs insurance money \) andy
rats cbnewsc cb att com \( morris cat \) subject proper gun control \? proper gun control \? organization distribution usa lines 34 l , first recorded survivor 357 shot heart lady killed attacker , chased ! four shots , fired shot , struck perp girl ! bullet entered downward angle , went apex heart , diaphragm , clipped liver destroyed spleen exited back leaving tennis ball sized hole died six times operating table , hospital 15 days back full duty eight months ! duty time wearing vest way home happened gun , n't think civilians rights sigh well , police think special worthy self defense , perhaps start putting arm police maybe start demanding police police duty , like ordinary disarmed helpless consider civilians let 's prohibit arms carrying police duty , make assertion well , need maintain gun let 's make regulation carry unloaded firearm home , 's fair helpless poor coming home computer operator job nra director ex san jose cop leroy pyle states latest swat magazine anti cops better watch schism rkba folks police asks rhetorical question 'what 's left gun lobby starts demanding disarmament police \? well , guess anti gun cops think armed , along wealthy politically connected , made realize screwing cut ways yet imagine
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject 'pill' deer hunting organization stratus computer , inc lines 144 distribution world nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article 1993apr14 2332 gnv ifas ufl edu , jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes might missed u news world report excerpt posted fairly consistant polls , finding approximately 40 50 households least one firearm ok near majority actually firearms , still claim vast majority never needs use even threaten anyone 500 , 000 1 , 000 , 000 self defense incidents year n't count \? right lucky \? maybe 're unlucky rapist pulls woman alley boston , chances almost certain wo n't counted one self defenders local n't consider important allowed arm even though shotgun owns home makes show gun owner column either case , means threat country rather low ironic words somebody lives florida average threat level florida reduced liberal ccw policy 's well known local thugs like target tourists precisely less likely carrying natives come boston , nyc , washington dc , see much average threat level country means resident think weapons brain never said alternative means self protection involved hardware 'good' neighborhoods 'good' \? n't every person armed teeth \( 1 \) attitude \( 2 \) cooperation 'good' neighborhoods , residents make aware neighbors notice strangers lurking around 'good' neighborhoods form groups like increase effect , relative effectiveness police arrested , good neighbors step say that's one officer ! robbing mr house sometimes works sometimes lands good neighbors dance card next wave drive someone told story la gangs moving phoenix 've misplaced original text , story started one resident calling cops gang member sure enough , nights later , drive performed resident 's house except time , unlike la , entire street came returned fire , putting end car 's occupants gang packed left course , la , place like florida hurricane , first problem find officer step tell anything short , alternative firepower gangs least manifestation social cooperative replace lead flesh flesh makes better invite block party look , nobody arguing fire extinguisher home n't mean careless tossing burnt matches carpet live carefully , monitor woodstove , get cleaned twice year , test smoke alarms annually despite fire start , 's late things except extinguisher legality legitimacy also matter government 's charter makes rule , government violates , violated basis existance enforcement becomes matter solely force arms oliver north man positively worshiped many american quarters big ron set secret government sorts severely illegal deeds kind stuff would twenty life , yet walks free bs happens time fact , happens much one really cares anymore non issue legality non issue long get bones mtv , gives rats ass \? seem agreeing opponent ca n't trust government protect abusers white collar , blue collar , , tank ultimately , one power enforce rights unless 've given power claimed one interested statistical aspects argument pure emotion , like abortion issue many people fit category , true us like believe facts behind case gun ownership 've conditioned believe seem content underestimate electorate i'm willing try raise consciousness argue away ca n't win think hci founded , 1980 \? mid 80 's , ran one million strong ! campaign two years reaching goal understanding reached including wide classes people dues paying members \( ca n't speak authoritatively maybe somebody else details \) started running two million strong ! campaign let slip obscurity became clear simply never going reach level membership 1964 , dodd hearings starting point modern gun control movement , nra mere 625 , 000 members 1968 , barely first murmurs future registration , million today , three million members , making third largest membership organization country \( next aaa \) membership growing faster previous time \( historical figures 's gun control , pp 61 420 \) say , many people middle debate bones mtv leaves hard core gun owners hard core gun banners know number ex hci members recently become nra members 've never heard single one gone way yes , think win one firearms related mindless mayhem related availibility firearms become scarce expensive , different psychology take hold think would used far less settle trivial complaints think would used far less hammer nails , well , , like , ca n't give citation showing utilization currently significant anecdotal level , i'm waiting cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
andy sail stanford edu \( andy freeman \) subject clinton wants national id card , aka ussr style internal passport organization computer science department , stanford university lines 50 article 1993apr14 cc usu edu slp9k cc usu edu writes \( btw parts secure \? criminal records , ie convictions , typically considered public information , info secure \? remember , population includes parents checking prospective worker \) like said , i'm sure details seems could access medical information without giving name , information medical info without name body attached completely useless treatment article mentioned earlier post described card type transaction neither store bank , knew withdrawing money thus making secure cash , purposes , far less secure others parent 's checking n't need access information stored card sure prospective may nasty habit molesting kids three four months job references may known long enough may picked yet remember , criminal conviction info public , 're going argue id card , people going strong argument disclose public info things think anything choose keep unknown thus making useless negative information could doctors access medical information , police criminal records etc etc yeah right going keep doctors spilling beans \? \( already know ca n't keep cops disclosing info , least info typically supposed public anyway \) like said , 's best read article article discusses technology , appropriate policy also fails deal happens folks secrets andy
a2 cim cdc com \( james foster \) subject gun like american express card organization control data distribution usa lines 197 article cae cad gatech edu , vincent cad gatech edu \( vincent fox \) writes 93104 173826u28037 uicvm uic edu jason kratz u28037 uicvm uic edu writes deleted far fully automatic weapons , lot better armed want hit aim seems happening situation getting totally blown proportion post referring regular patrolman car cruising around city vs gang members course police access things mentioned use tanks time \? course n't 's point trying make every day go lunch always see cops coming majority see still carrying revolvers anything wrong revolver 're cop gang member couple automatics coat \( mean semi auto handguns \) 're going disadvantage even training shooting range gang gang members practicing shooting actually practicing taking guns quick possible shooting target n't badly either university cops \( state cops \) armed better chicago police seems state cops every city suburban police officer 've seen around twin cities last two years carried semi auto type \( different brands though n't seen glock 's \) regard discussion getting dangerously far usual rantings p g , close realm r g , 'd like put two cents worth 's nothing wrong revolver \( especially large frame w 357 magnum favorite \) valid advantages semi autos suggest reading 's \( know , people ca n't stand think 's full bull , think general material valid useful \) book semi auto pistol police work \( something like \) defines number ways semi auto 's different , different good main advantage increased firepower , accurate followup shots go single action mode also certain nature gun takes familiarity learn may diminished time criminals become familiar different models semi autos , cited stopping least slowing criminals grabbed police officers gun define armed better go shoot revolver semi auto like colt 45 one fires faster \? nope aside faster rate fire usually desirable sure makes guys duck cover , trying hitting anything thompson hose mode military limiting 's 16 3 round burst fire simple semi auto would better , troops like able rock roll even wasteful ammo \( something often short supply enemy plentiful \) revolver equally capable semi auto caliber revolver also advantage pull trigger double action revolver \( almost \) hand cocked first , fire merely pulling trigger yes , best done two hand hold single hand either pull gun far target cock , must fire double action da semi auto advantages plus always sa first shot misfire revolver merely means must pull trigger rotate next round i'm sure meant different first point da semi auto pull trigger try dropping hammer round advantage n't revolver next trigger pull always go next round \( discussing point \) fine dud situation \? granted 's rare , round go confined cylinder place go slide misfire takes little time revolver carried 6th chamber empty hammer maximum safety , still drawn fired easy motion , even one handed actually modern revolver designs incorporating hammer blocks necessary usually recommended revolver would fall hard enough right angle actually break hammer driver firing pin round set revolver allow almost fast magazines semi autos faster depending users best users , especially using spring loaded speed fast problem ejecting spent cases two handed job dropping expended magazine one handed means inserting fresh magazine soon old one clears gun , speed loader go motions always take time also n't advantage tactical \( replacing partial magazine bring back full capacity partial magazine still used needed later \) misfire semi auto require clear jammed shell first , time spent fatal vital second often lost realize hey , 's jammed ! starting anything clearing yes , time recognize problem important time clear really though , either revolver semi auto odds actual misfire factory ammo awfully small likely get jam semi auto even exceptionally rare modern quality guns \( sigs , glocks , et al \) semi autos must slide worked chamber first round cock hammer police carry semi autos chamber loaded hammer cocked , safety engaged consider safe however must trade safety get speed employment revolver double action semi autos , complexity operation many requires training common semi auto 's carried round chamber without safety problems put statement believe , say applies ones 've looked da semi 's 's different revolver situation guns hammer firing pin blocks also safety 's real advantage carrying one cocked locked safety speed employment revolver , plus advantage sa followup shots i'm familiar sa semi autos except 1911 a1 admit initially skeptical carrying cocked locked , examining design , trying defeat safeties \( gun unloaded course \) , shooting lot , see inherent safety problems , especially holster strap hammer design also gets speed accurate first shot revolver police departments switched glocks , started quietly switching many officers back old revolvers many accidents , partly due poor training received glocks require rocket scientists , cops baffled something complex timer vcr yeah , infamous glock still ca n't figure 's worse revolver safety n't pull trigger n't go imagine revolver shooting done double action could pull glock trigger far enough fire realized addition , developed nasty habit keeping finger trigger gun relying thumb hammer remind take blew foot 'd problems hammer n't anyone goes anyone saying criminals obviously police n't know nothing firearms turn cops hunter pay attention seek say semi autos junk merely assuming better jobs stupid cop revolver hip shotgun rack equipped anything short riot think even okay riot \( long 's small one b \) \) gun control hitting aim whip wonder nine fire real fast may find n't hit anything good controlled fire revolver likely get hit 9mm beretta consider inferior carry weapon something like ruger security six revolver n't hit i'm aiming first 5 shots , something quite seriously wrong somewheres might like backup capacity extra shots certain cases , overwhelmingly shots fired criminal encounters less 5 poor man 's beretta \( taurus 99 \) consider inferior carry weapon springfield 45 \( oops , 9mm vs 45 arguments relegated r g \) right , though n't hit aim shooter gun combination failed n't ascribe failures fire real fast wonder nine scenario mention gun shooter failure , whether lack discipline lack training crooks overwhelmingly use crime \? nice simple 38 revolvers police often use well actually police prefer much 357 magnum , anyway 9mm 's becoming popular crooks , though 38 still lead list like said , around semi auto 's seem rule street cop n't know state patrol however , may still carry highway patrolman n't flame , prefer semi autos things introduce unneccessary complications something nerve encounter lone criminal vincent , please n't take flame 0 02 \( whoops , looks like 2 00 \) worth much imho , check 's book everything gone planned , everything would perfect batf spokesperson cnn 3 2 93 , regarding failed raid attempt tx
pyron skndiv dseg ti com \( dillon pyron \) subject non lethal alternatives handguns \? keywords handgun mace pepper spray taser tasp phaser lines 24 nntp posting host skndiv dseg ti com reply pyron skndiv dseg ti com organization ti dseg vax support article apr15 yuma acns colostate edu , holland cs colostate edu \( douglas craig holland \) writes guns non lethal bullets , like rubber plastic bullets would work well stopping attack \? ask brits enough people killed rubber bullets use certain controlled circumstances fired something looks like tear gas launcher smaller rubber bullets pellets \( shotguns \) understand intended , ie truly dangerous animal general , seem capable really stopping someone wants past fired low muzzle velocity \( 38 ball round intended load \) finally , mother warned , put eye thing \) dillon pyron opinions expressed ti dseg lewisville vax support sender unless otherwise stated \( 214 \) 462 3556 \( i'm \) \( 214 \) 492 4656 \( i'm home \) texans vote robin hood need pyron skndiv dseg ti com solutions , gestures padi dm 54909
pyron skndiv dseg ti com \( dillon pyron \) subject high power assault guns lines 12 nntp posting host skndiv dseg ti com reply pyron skndiv dseg ti com organization ti dseg vax support high power assault gun \? , must talking want try 16 \? one german railway guns \? dillon pyron opinions expressed ti dseg lewisville vax support sender unless otherwise stated \( 214 \) 462 3556 \( i'm \) \( 214 \) 492 4656 \( i'm home \) texans vote robin hood need pyron skndiv dseg ti com solutions , gestures padi dm 54909
pyron skndiv dseg ti com \( dillon pyron \) subject n't knock glock \( gun like ex card \) lines 36 nntp posting host skndiv dseg ti com reply pyron skndiv dseg ti com organization ti dseg vax support distribution usa article 93104 231049u28037 uicvm uic edu , jason kratz u28037 uicvm uic edu writes article cae cad gatech edu , vincent cad gatech edu \( vincent fox \) says points well taken things n't considered really familiar enough handguns police departments switched glocks , started quietly switching many officers back old revolvers many accidents , partly due poor training received glocks require rocket scientists , cops baffled something complex timer vcr hell , glock last thing switched thing know glock lack real safety sure little thing trigger n't great safety ahem ! ! ! hrumph ! ! ! ! wrath glock owners beat hammers , n't \) seriously difference safeties glock da revolver intellectually , think glock high cap revolver ignoring stove pipes , bonus exercises give , every gun safe moment dangerous moment learn handle , becomes lot less dangerous \( \) dillon pyron opinions expressed ti dseg lewisville vax support sender unless otherwise stated \( 214 \) 462 3556 \( i'm \) \( 214 \) 492 4656 \( i'm home \) texans vote robin hood need pyron skndiv dseg ti com solutions , gestures padi dm 54909
gaucher sam cchem berkeley edu subject newspapers censoring gun advertisements organization university california , berkeley lines 33 nntp posting host sam cchem berkeley edu originator gaucher sam cchem berkeley edu article mcimail com 0005111312 mcimail com \( peter nesbitt \) writes recently looking around traders sporting goods store , well stocked firearms store , discovered printed document distributed good folks work traders , btw , located san leandro , ca newspapers decided censor gun ads longer see ads traders , san leandro , run many years ads run law abiding honest citizens firearms sporting use self protection certainly right , second amendment right bear arms sure \? i'm currently looking copy last thursday 's sf chronicle typical one column traders ad page c7 sports section , part middle rather says wanted pay cash assault rifles pistols granted , n't seen today 's paper yet 'd surprised n't traders ad 's probably worth write chronicle \( papers \) anyway , anti gun editorials disgusting way , let put plug traders shopped sf bay area never seen another store lower prices selection amazing lee gaucher opinions gaucher sam cchem berkeley edu one else 's
dlb fanny wash inmet com \( david barton \) subject proper gun control \? proper gun control \? \( gun like american express card \) reply bressler iftccu ca boeing com 's message wed , 14 apr 1993 17 16 21 gmt nntp posting host fanny wash organization inc , washington division , usa lines 15 iftccu talk politics guns hays ssd intel com \( kirk hays \) 3 31 pm apr 13 , 1993 pro gun posters group guns dread terminator , aka rifleman , owned firearms several years posting group , example others worth , firearms sort long time readers group know , dedicated rkba toys freedom dave barton dlb hudson wash inmet com
veal utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) subject clinton wants national id card , aka ussr style internal passport lines 40 organization university tennessee division continuing education article 1993apr15 csd newshost stanford edu andy sail stanford edu \( andy freeman \) writes article 1993apr14 cc usu edu slp9k cc usu edu writes \( btw parts secure \? criminal records , ie convictions , typically considered public information , info secure \? remember , population includes parents checking prospective worker \) parent 's checking n't need access information stored card sure prospective may nasty habit molesting kids three four months job references may known long enough may picked yet remember , criminal conviction info public , 're going argue id card , people going strong argument disclose public info perhaps insight sort thing works , local college newspaper big crusade u police release crime stats \( school claimed would violate federal education records privacy laws \) swore n't interested student discipline records , stats people could make evaluation safe campus barely week crime stats released daily beacon editorial calling student disciplinary stats released , complained certain segments campus population treated rather turned police therefore criminal states n't accurate people say want public today may say tomorrow david veal univ tenn div cont education info services group pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu still remember way laughed , day pushed elevator shaft i'm beginning think n't love anymore weird al
tms cs umd edu \( tom swiss \( swift , , swiss ! \) \) subject clinton wants national id card , aka ussr style internal passport organization reality liberation front \( pixels people ! \) lines 17 slp9k cc usu edu writes want point fully support privacy , possible soon completely secure id card , useable bank transactions , medical , etc etc thing completely secure , especially dealing high technology 's question cost cost willing bear protect information vs rewards bad guys going get break rewards breaking single id system would high indeed tom swiss tms cs umd edu born die keep laws brain ! 's funny 'bout peace , love understanding \? nick lowe sig contains animal products tested animals time nature 's way keeping everything happening
pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) subject boston gun buy back lines 40 organization university tennessee division continuing education article hpfcso fc hp com ron hpfcso fc hp com \( ron miller \) writes interlan interlan com \( mark \) rm short thought ask question authorities sponsors buyback programs whether check stolen weapons answer , 's total amnesty please note 50 given firearm , boston cash , money orders much amnesty get leave paper trail behind \? latest case denver , giving away tickets denver basketball game traceable money order \? \( n't know n't used one 20 years \) money orders operate pretty much like checks , parties supposed sign assume 'd show buy back people id , 'd money order made id far traceable practical matter , n't know , would depend whether bother recipient 's name money order bother keying sort thing 'd say certainly police buyback people would keep record gave money orders even issue weapons n't checked stolen \? might questions asked , suppose , somebody brought number weapons time series buy back programs david veal univ tenn div cont education info services group pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu still remember way laughed , day pushed elevator shaft i'm beginning think n't love anymore weird al
cmort ncoast org \( christopher morton \) subject ban firearms ! reply cmort ncoast org \( christopher morton \) organization north coast public access nix , cleveland , oh distribution usa lines 30 quoted cbnewsc cb att com rats cbnewsc cb att com \( morris cat \) firearms tend fall low dollar pound area would economic smuggle production would local many people skill motivation assemble worthwhile firearms scratch high ranking crime figures could obtain imported uzis , average person , average thug , would lucky get zip gun would pay nose borne reality old soviet union serious domestic handgun trade , guns commercial grade produced honest goodness would production local n't road system envy world \? anybody wanted proof nonsense ca n't build guns claim , need look farther philippines amateur regularly produce everything 45 automatics full auto shotguns guy wants claim philippines either technologically superior us transportation better , say 's living fantasy world 're like bunch educated , new york jewish aclu lawyers fighting eliminate school prayer public schools arkansas holly silva
betz gozer idbsu edu \( andrew betz \) subject ban firearms ! nntp posting host gozer organization sigsauer fan club lines 58 article 1993apr14 184448 2331 gnv ifas ufl edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes alcohol banned today , would much difficult manage large scale smuggling operation cops rank narrow notch military communications , intelligence gathering firepower proof assertion ! love ! uh , please explain smugglers also rank notch \( \) military terms communications , intelligence gathering \( e g , fight officials bribe 'll give hundred grand let semi past \) , firepower similar vein , amount marijuana smuggled country greatly decreased value per pound low compared cocaine heroin 's simply worth risk , 's , reefer domestic less pressure domestic producer \( raids notwithstanding \) thus economical note though domestic reefer strong , small volume goes long way cannot make alcohol stronger 200 proof good dollar pound deal 's point \? 're arguing black market works \( , course \) firearms tend fall low dollar pound area wrong way quantify things would concerned value cubic foot go gun show price good quality handguns would economic smuggle production would local many people 's local \? skill motivation assemble worthwhile firearms scratch high ranking crime figures could worthwhile firearm \? hell , anything works ! go get copy army 's 1969 munitions manual see easy make functional firearm obtain imported uzis , average person , average thug , would lucky get zip gun would pay nose paying 10 inconspicuous parts local k mart nose drew betz gozer idbsu edu brought terminal free state idaho outlaw rights , outlaws rights spook fodder fema , nsa , clinton , gore , insurrection , nsc , semtex , neptunium , terrorist , cia , mi5 , mi6 , kgb , deuterium
andy sail stanford edu \( andy freeman \) subject gun like american express card organization computer science department , stanford university distribution usa lines 22 article 93104 231049u28037 uicvm uic edu jason kratz u28037 uicvm uic edu writes points well taken things n't considered really familiar enough handguns 's kratz n't know hell , glock last thing switched thing know glock lack real safety sure little thing trigger n't great safety know kratz n't understand safety supposed \( also confuses things see things exist glocks multiple safeties even though one visible outside \) safety supposed keep gun going unless 's user wants glocks , one says want gun go pulling trigger safeties make work , real safety , matter kratz thinks andy
sylvain netcom com \( nicholas sylvain \) subject proper gun control \? proper gun control \? \( gun like american express card \) organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 17 article dlb fanny wash inmet com dlb fanny wash inmet com \( david barton \) writes worth , firearms sort long time readers group know , dedicated rkba long time reader p g , also staunch rkba supporter , yet firearms toys freedom amen , brother nicholas sylvain \( sylvain netcom com \) nra nicholas sylvain \( sylvain netcom com \) nra
hays ssd intel com \( kirk hays \) subject proper gun control \? proper gun control \? \( gun like american express card \) nntp posting host taos organization intel supercomputer systems division lines 30 article iftccu ca boeing com , bressler iftccu ca boeing com \( rick bressler \) writes iftccu talk politics guns hays ssd intel com \( kirk hays \) 3 31 pm apr 13 , 1993 pro gun posters group guns dread terminator , aka rifleman , owned firearms several years posting group , example others good point , kirk 's still around 's responded email couple posts , gosh darn , 's gotten right civil ! time got first firearm wonder relationship \? turns people \( least ones criminals start \) act responsibility given chance 'd like point error terminator began posting six months purchased first firearm , according private email ca n't produce archived posting earlier january 1992 , purchased first firearm march 1992 guess seemed like years back regularly scheduled flame fest kirk hays nra life , seventh generation thing necessary triumph evil good men nothing edmund burke \( 1797 \)
andy sail stanford edu \( andy freeman \) subject ban firearms ! organization computer science department , stanford university lines 38 quoted 1993apr14 184448 2331 gnv ifas ufl edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu firearms tend fall low dollar pound area would economic smuggle depends profit differences cost production determine local vs smuggle would local many people skill motivation assemble worthwhile us actually made semi autos \( full autos easier \) getting quite giggle 'd estimate 5 people high school could n't \( one failed shop \) people actually seen mechanical work would probably say 1 like starting even 90 population , sure enough people motivated firearms scratch high ranking crime figures could obtain imported uzis , average person , average thug , would lucky get zip gun would pay nose much nose \? , know quite bit much gun worth criminal , price demanded bad part 90 relevant economic analysis made profit gun crime high enough price required push criminals market high enough everyone motivated analysis ignored improvements criminal gun market could make even cheaper \( 're efficiently used , set would drive value still higher without affecting criminal use \) andy
meyers leonardo rtp dg com \( bill meyers \) subject hr 1276 \( gun law live ! \) distribution usa organization n lines 115 congress 1st session h r 1276 establish right obtain firearms security , use firearms defense self , family , home , provide enforcement right house representatives march 10 , 1993 mr bartlett introduced following bill referred committee judiciary bill establish right obtain firearms security , use firearms defense self , family , home , provide enforcement right enacted senate house united states america congress assembled , section 1 short title act may cited citizens' self defense act 1993 sec 2 right obtain firearms security , use firearms defense self , family , home enforcement \( \) establishment right person pro federal law receiving firearm shall right obtain firearms security , use fire arms defense self , family , home \( b \) firearm defined used subsection \( \) , term firearm means \( 1 \) shotgun \( defined section 921 \( \) \( 5 \) title 18 , united states code \) \( 2 \) rifle \( defined section 921 \( \) \( 7 \) title \) \( 3 \) handgun \( defined section 10 public law 99 408 \) \( c \) enforcement right \( 1 \) general person whose right subsection \( \) violated manner may bring action united states district court united states , state , person damages , relief , relief court appropriate \( 2 \) authority award reasonable fee action brought para graph \( 1 \) , court , discretion , may allow prevailing party , state , reasonable attorney 's fee part costs \( \) statute limitations action may brought subsection \( c \) \( 1 \) 5 year period begins date violation described therein discovered \( end hr 1276 \) well , sounds good key section \( 2 \) \( c \) \( 2 \) , effectively open federal court system folks ca n't afford adopt attorney fight city hall 've saying hey , n't illegal \? could go hire attorneys pay win \( contingency fee \) basis , sue bums \) \( 1 \) write representative , ask co sponsor hr 1276 \( 2 \) write representative bartlett , sponsor representative bartlett 312 cannon house office building washington , c tell representative , 've asked join co sponsor hr 1276 \( 3 \) contact gun owners america gun owners america forbes place springfield , virginia committed lobby behalf hr 1276 \( 4 \) us \( tm \) , find reach representative bartlett 's campaign fund \( i'm working \) toss bucks bet 's going one hci targets next election , n't far away \( 1994 \) \( 5 \) tell family , friends , gun club , etc enjoy \)
andy sail stanford edu \( andy freeman \) subject newspapers censoring gun advertisements organization computer science department , stanford university lines 48 newspaper ad censorship newspapers decided censor gun ads longer see ads traders , san leandro , run many years tired newspapers run sex liquor ads , yet refuse run legitimate gun ads , please send letter editors indicating displeasure censorship doctrine following list bay area newspapers censor gun ads perhaps 'd like send thoughts issue ! contra costa times san mateo times san francisco chronicle pob 5088 pob 5400 901 mission st walnut creek , ca san mateo , ca san francisco , ca 94103 san fran independent san fran examiner san jose mercury news 1201 evans ave 110 5th st 750 park dr san fran , ca san fran , ca 94103 san jose , ca april 15 , 1993 issue sf chronicle lap page e7 \( sporting green section \) 's advert \( copy bit screwed says prices offered expire 4 14 93 , ad \) sf examiner chronicle run set \( joint printing biz agreement differ editorial content \) 've seen gun ads recently merc , anti gun , albeit traders , competitors n't know papers traders claim things changing \? \? tv journalists lie 's easier telling truth one much cares either way let know write bozos , make sure bozos actually 're accusing andy
pitargue cisco com \( marciano pitargue \) subject guns backcountry \? thanks organization cisco lines 58 distribution world nntp posting host cisco com originator pitargue cisco com article s9i usenet ins cwru edu , cleveland freenet edu \( john k \) writes worry much rape murder wilderness also carry guns time home \? , since 're hell lot danger backcountry carrying tool classify someone rambo pioneers came west rambo 's \? ! ! ! \) anybody reading group actual , honest god experience violent crime backcountry tell \? sort understand people want protect bears , although , , maybe dozen two bear attacks people north america year \? worry raped buck bubba irrational think 'd lot safer deliverance gathered burned would tune change one dozen two bear attacks \? believe , need firearm , need firearm public health experts tell far likely gun stolen , use family member used use actual criminal please cite references 'll let others \( please note followup \) cite valid references show untruth rambo warriors 've heard undoubtedly consider exempt statistical reality 're much smart responsible living city 's drive shooting every couple days , working medical center day n't go without shooting victim coming er , i'm bit skeptical value gun ownership go backcountry get away environment , n't want find people insist bringing urban environment along boom boxes , computers , guns well , might well go naked forget matches , backpack , sleeping bag rest 's modern convenience firearm tool people wo n't carry , people firearms category personal choice factoid shooting victims er count many come due automobile accidents automobile crimes maybe outlaw cars please post flaming responses rec guns rabid \( j , , ala marciano pitargue cisco com
chrisb natinst com \( chris bartz \) subject hr 1276 \( gun law live ! \) organization national instruments , austin , tx lines 26 distribution usa nntp posting host eagle natinst com article 1993apr15 dg rtp dg com meyers leonardo rtp dg com \( bill meyers \) writes \( \) establishment right person pro federal law receiving firearm shall right obtain firearms security , use fire arms defense self , family , home , right unless federal government says n't n't think like much would much better said everyone except striped right due process law thing also , n't care federal government stepping states rights regardless state right stepped constitution n't give feds power shut way feds anything say constitution prohibits localities infringing rkba case bill reiterate rkba guaranteed constitution feds take appropriate action infringed chris bartz \( chrisb natinst com \)
earlw apple com \( earl wallace \) subject friends like l neil smith organization apple computer inc esd cross platform software lines 17 nntp posting host apple com look , figure reliable means keeping guns away bad people , interfering good people , think 'd problem , methods 're using n't trick n't manufacture n't sell n't import guns get , far fewer , far less people die hunting weapons could allowed , course , long big , bulky , require reloading shots \( many times shoot animal , anyways one assumes moving ! \) better solution people ca n't trusted guns , lock knock stop punishing good people
bixledn eng auburn edu \( david n bixler \) subject gun like american express car nntp posting host eng auburn edu reply bixledn eng auburn edu organization auburn university engineering lines 36 article 27322 csd newshost stanford edu , andy sail stanford edu \( andy freeman \) writes article 93104 231049u28037 uicvm uic edu jason kratz u28037 uicvm uic edu writes points well taken things n't considered really familiar enough handguns 's kratz n't know hell , glock last thing switched thing know glock lack real safety sure little thing trigger n't great safety know kratz n't understand safety supposed \( also confuses things see things exist glocks multiple safeties even though one visible outside \) safety supposed keep gun going unless 's user wants glocks , one says want gun go pulling trigger safeties make work , real safety , matter kratz thinks andy agree much read almost every article written glock , imo , probably safest auto loader made best safty , jeff cooper 's first rule , keep finger trigger want shoot everyone observed , would fewer accidents david n bixler auburn university standard disclaimers apply
holland cs colostate edu \( douglas craig holland \) subject non lethal alternatives handguns \? nntp posting host beethoven cs colostate edu organization colorado state university , computer science department keywords handgun mace pepper spray taser tasp phaser lines 18 article 1993apr15 mksol dseg ti com pyron skndiv dseg ti com writes ask brits enough people killed rubber bullets use certain controlled circumstances fired something looks like tear gas launcher smaller rubber bullets pellets \( shotguns \) understand intended , ie truly dangerous animal general , seem capable really stopping someone wants past fired low muzzle velocity \( 38 ball round intended load \) finally , mother warned , put eye thing \) oh , ok wondering real expert weapons , wondering would job doug holland
brians atlastele com \( brian sheets \) subject constitutionality 18 u c 922 \( \) organization atlas telecom inc disclaimer views expressed necessarily represent employer distribution usa lines 28 know , reading 18 u c 922 something make sence wondering someone could help say u c 922 \( 1 \) except provided paragraph \( 2 \) , shall unlawful person transfer possess machinegun well got looking law dictionary found person might also artificial entity created government rights federal constitution , n't understand statute like 922 enforced individual someone tell government tell cannot possess passing law make law everyone knows laws goes court , ever gone court , run mill ok guilty , put jail anyone ever claimed right possess told supreme court n't right \? brian sheets truck \? ! truck \? support engineer `o o' atlas telecom inc \( \) raiders lost ark brians atlastele com u
holland cs colostate edu \( douglas craig holland \) subject cop kills teenager nntp posting host beethoven cs colostate edu organization colorado state university , computer science department keywords handgun mace pepper spray taser tasp phaser lines 26 ok , 's something people think cops always responsible rest population found article rocky mountain , colorado state university 's newspaper suspended police officer arrested revenge triple homicide providence , r \( ap \) police officer afraid would fired allegedly assaulting teen walked auto body shop youth worked , said 're going die fatally shot two others , police said fourth youth wounded fifth escaped injury hiding car wounded youth ran two blocks house shooting midnight tuesday called police hospitalized satisfactory condition wednesday suspended police officer robert , 23 , cranston , arrested gunpoint three hours shooting wilson 's auto enterprises foster , rural town 4 , 000 people northwest rhode island well , goes show cops capable , like everyone else said cops guns \? doug holland
andy sail stanford edu \( andy freeman \) subject gun like american express card organization computer science department , stanford university distribution usa lines 44 93104 173826u28037 uicvm uic edu jason kratz u28037 uicvm uic edu writes seems happening situation getting totally blown proportion post referring regular patrolman car cruising around city vs gang members course police access things mentioned use tanks time \? course n't 's point trying make every day go lunch always see cops coming majority see still carrying revolvers \? look trunk time heck look dash funny thing attached quick release gun ones trunk better \( n't numbers chicago , philadelphia police cars carried multiple automatic weapons thousands rounds standard issue 60s \) anything wrong revolver 're cop gang member couple automatics coat \( mean semi auto handguns \) 're going disadvantage even training nature disadvantage \? cop shoot , 6 rounds job single opponent \( especially since cop guaranteed backup \) gang member shoot , extra rounds n't help time difference matter neither shoot , cops n't supposed throwing lead around like btw cops carry multiple guns 're supposed know second , third , shooting range gang members practicing shooting know gang members undercover cops even law abiding menacing minorities btw sneer quotes \? actually practicing taking guns quick possible shooting target n't badly either extra rounds wo n't make difference , issue \? andy
bronze ucs indiana edu \( \) subject gun like american express card nntp posting host bronze ucs indiana edu organization indiana university distribution usa lines 17 article 1993apr15 27322 csd newshost stanford edu andy sail stanford edu \( andy freeman \) writes article 93104 231049u28037 uicvm uic edu jason kratz u28037 uicvm uic edu writes points well taken things n't considered really familiar enough handguns 's kratz n't know k guys , guys , \( gals \) , let 's lay jason though stepped , good far admitting n't know 's talking , even stunning seems chief tranquility opinions ! 's ! emt base , lawrence co legalize explosives ! \( tech \) somewhere politicians prefer networks tech ranch c'mon unarmed peasants
pngai adobe com \( phil ngai \) subject 'pill' deer hunting organization adobe systems incorporated lines 11 article transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) writes know number ex hci members recently become nra members 've never heard single one gone way 've member nra several years recently joined hci wanted see paid minimum \( 15 \) get membership also sent nra another 120 would founding fathers approved encryption strong government could break \?
bbs tsoft net \( bill anderson \) subject handgun restrictions organization tsoft bbs public access unix , 1 415 969 8238 lines 7 would like know restrictions purchasing handguns \( ie waiting periods , background check etc \) states nevada oregon thanks bill bill anderson \( bbs tsoft net \)
organization university illinois chicago , academic computer center jason kratz u28037 uicvm uic edu subject n't knock glock \( gun like ex card \) distribution usa 93104 231049u28037 1993apr15 mksol dseg ti com lines 46 article 1993apr15 mksol dseg ti com , pyron skndiv dseg ti com \( dillon pyron \) says police departments switched glocks , started quietly switching many officers back old revolvers many accidents , partly due poor training received glocks require rocket scientists , cops baffled something complex timer vcr hell , glock last thing switched thing know glock lack real safety sure little thing trigger n't great safety ahem ! ! ! hrumph ! ! ! ! wrath glock owners beat hammers , n't \) seriously difference safeties glock da revolver intellectually , think glock high cap revolver ignoring stove pipes , bonus exercises give , every gun safe moment dangerous moment learn handle , becomes lot less dangerous \( \) dillon pyron opinions expressed ti dseg lewisville vax support sender unless otherwise stated \( 214 \) 462 3556 \( i'm \) \( 214 \) 492 4656 \( i'm home \) texans vote robin hood need pyron skndiv dseg ti com solutions , gestures padi dm 54909 true i'm going read heard friends basically glock great heard read lot harder learn proper handling type safety looking glock 40s w w couple weeks ago safties guns different saftey seemed lot safe \( lack better word \) one glock course could also bad thing pull gun somebody would spend time fiddling around turning safety personally like glocks light think look really cool \( guess 's use many movies \) would n't get one first semi auto safety would prefer training traditional semi auto \( ala colt 45 \) course 's opinion jason
nntp posting host surt ifi uio thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio subject gun like american express card reply jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) 's message 15 apr 1993 13 08 14 gmt organization dept informatics , university oslo , norway clem handheld com lines 73 originator thomasp surt ifi uio hate long postings , turned rather lengthy overall crime rate fell like acquiring weapons norway buy \( almost \) kinds weapons norway , must permit , good reason get permit would like handgun , would get gun licence police member gun club police would check criminal records serious crimes records serious mental diseases , got licence , would active member gun club 6 months could collect gun 's little like getting drivers licence n't \? \? \? prove drive allowed use guns crimes \( norway \) crimes commited guns owners long time , rather criminals accuire guns use crimes , mostly short time befor crime use knives allowed cary knifes public , belt 'open' \( americans \) think 's ok gun , carry open public rigth \? \? scandinavians hot , decide take action ask historian knowledge europe \( ask german served norway ww2 \) individual vs masses yes individual important masses , extent criminal laws protect individuals makes masses \? \? happens individuals affects rights others \? \? issue believe issue guns , gun legislation n't mix weapons items serve one lived amerika would probably gun defend home like \? \? think 's wise sell guns like candy \( states \) \? \? believe 's smart neccacery drivers licence think free buy guns \? \? disclaim i'm pacifist anti gun would defend home , loved ones country , n't view guns toys done army service , used weapons , would n't want one self defence signature 's computergenerated text waste bandwith bring evil internet thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio
awesley vela acs oakland edu \( awesley \) subject silly outdated bill \( koresh miranda \) organization oakland university , rochester , michigan , u lines 115 nntp posting host vela acs oakland edu scottj magic dml georgetown edu \( john l scott \) writes issue never whether tanks used detroit 1967 whether fired main guns never \? incorrect either n't read well resort falsehoods attempt make point risk boring point , claim chain regarding tanks last used detroit 48 text follows merely claim tanks used claimed fired main guns suppress sniper fire quite effective indeed , coffman claimed used , say told fire main guns continue back away claim defend something else nobody disputing well , poster responded dispute use tanks post 48 rude call gary coffman nobody well , 's main gun gee , 's entire point going admit wrong \? entire point exactly claim \? 've heard eye witness descriptions tanks using main guns respond sniper fire quite effectively n't wrong 've heard descriptions 're paying attention , 've mentioned saw tanks eyes , main gun firing account heard helps people judge whether kick , use words , bullshit filters stating claimed falsehood claimed fact \? 's entire post n't used tanks black since detroit 1948 correction know used tanks detroit 1968 saw em , well covered news time gordon mentions song black day july since n't dispute claim nobody else , means right never read tanks firing main guns detroit '67 riots simply way event could taken place without common knowledge even 26 years later american military firing shells tanks american cities blacks would big news one would suppose folks think happened 48 awesley goes also read troops using grenade launchers fire fragmentary grenades \? doubt well fire concussion grenades \? perhaps fire tear gas \? certainly would perfectly willing let us believe fired , would n't , since makes claim seem plausible john , , strawman techniques feel 're losing stretch said knock \? read said nothing fired put nothing need help , let know take side 're scoring , 're boring tanks fired main guns detroit , people would screaming past two half decades would know glad know 're expert nice hear authority especially appreciate basis knowledge happened , would know since authority , probably know people scream alleged massive cover number people killed detroit riot claimed 100 dead , others said 300 offical number 43 concise columbia encyclopedia says several 've also heard things wo n't dare repeat 'd assert claimed truth unless also claim national guard managed cover taking tour riots , pretty easy tell difference army guard troops recall 26 years ago seem recall army running tanks would army cover another part memories damaged building burnt , rubble based remember , inclined believe old two mind open enough believe , well , good prefer live reality reality , find hard believe tanks even shells , much less fired given level destruction detroit , i'm quite willing believe fire guns , 've bored shit anyone whose bothered read far 've managed say n't believe account cited john l scott wes
organization university illinois chicago , academic computer center jason kratz u28037 uicvm uic edu subject gun like american express card distribution usa 93104 231 1993apr15 27322 csd newshost stanford edu lines 44 article 1993apr15 27322 csd newshost stanford edu , andy sail stanford edu \( andy freeman \) says article 93104 231049u28037 uicvm uic edu jason kratz u28037 uicvm uic edu points well taken things n't considered really familiar enough handguns 's kratz n't know hell , glock last thing switched thing know glock lack real safety sure little thing trigger n't great safety know kratz n't understand safety supposed \( also confuses things see things exist glocks multiple safeties even though one visible outside \) excuse know safety supposed 's basic purpose let gun fire 're ready christ , 've known since first air gun n't know n't make assumptions know n't know know glock multiple safties reports , looking gun shop , friends one safety supposed keep gun going unless 's user wants glocks , one says want gun go pulling trigger safeties make work , real safety , matter kratz thinks andy things read heard glocks always knocked trigger safety supposedly harder learn use properly every article read ca n't wrong damn thing n't ask quote sources n't keep ton gun magazines rec guns articles laying around boy , ca n't make simple statement without someone getting right ass wonder many problems world everyone takes everything little seriously way , i'm going reply stuff anymore someone made good point discussion getting close r g \( yes know something \) jason
paull hplabsz hpl hp com \( robert paull \) subject newspapers censoring gun advertisements organization hewlett packard laboratories palo alto , ca x newsreader tin version 1 1 4 pl6 lines 17 andy freeman \( andy sail stanford edu \) wrote newspaper ad censorship san fran independent san fran examiner san jose mercury news 1201 evans ave 110 5th st 750 park dr san fran , ca san fran , ca 94103 san jose , ca hmmm , sj merc carries west , national shooting club , reeds , supply big 5 ads sell guns n't adds like shotgun news wo n't least run current adds swear 'll cancel subscription end cash rob p
syck5280 miller cs uwm edu \( steven b syck \) subject n't knock glock \( gun like ex card \) organization university wisconsin , milwaukee lines 61 distribution usa nntp posting host 129 89 9 13 article 93105 uicvm uic edu jason kratz u28037 uicvm uic edu writes true i'm going read heard friends basically glock great heard read lot harder learn proper handling type safety looking glock 40s w w couple weeks ago safties guns different saftey seemed lot safe \( lack better word \) one glock course could also bad thing pull gun somebody would spend time fiddling around turning safety personally like glocks light think look really cool \( guess 's use many movies \) would n't get one first semi auto safety would prefer training traditional semi auto \( ala colt 45 \) course 's opinion jason risk starting 'my gun better flame war , must disagree secret handling glock fact , often chosen \( besides merits \) shoots like revolver basically limit training time \( read budget \) due fact safties trigger , hence less training time required smith \( among types \) chosen due fact external safties \( hammer drop , well mag drop \) properly used saved many lives snatched gun officer tried shoot said officer gun safe would fire point made many articles various gun magazines fact , one author \( ca n't remember \) staged little test revolver w safe laying table asked people little firearms experience signal , grab gun shoot target timed people using gun revolver times pretty close , times w minutes , person gave could figure saftey n't often see colt 45 autos issued due light trigger accidentally fired stress situation , opening issuing city , county , etc lawsuits , bad press , etc course problem overcome enough training , training always available budget departments know cop would want something like w chance gun getting taken away safety n't guarantee wo n't figure shoot , could buy enough time draw second gun shoot 's late n't think 3 glocks possession one time , 45 well fact , first handgun remember , ultimate operator , safety going stop negligent discharge \( note n't say accidental \) break rules gun handling per part light weight looking cool , agree 100 would n't rule first purchase 02 tax steve syck syck5280 miller cs uwm edu
seq uncwil edu \( \) subject insane gun toting wackos unite ! ! ! organization univ north carolina wilmington distribution na lines 10 anyone worries gun one carry pistol empty chamber safety chances going zero unless sit top lite stove couple minutes put fire \) n't kill us makes us stronger spoken many delta four zulu papa uniform 146 82
earlw apple com \( earl wallace \) subject proper gun control \? proper gun control \? distribution usa organization apple computer inc esd cross platform software lines 26 nntp posting host apple com article cbnewsc cb att com rats cbnewsc cb att com \( morris cat \) writes let 's prohibit arms carrying police duty , make assertion well , need maintain gun let 's make regulation carry unloaded firearm home , 's fair helpless poor coming home computer operator job nra director ex san jose cop leroy pyle states latest swat magazine anti cops better watch schism rkba folks police asks rhetorical question 'what 's left gun lobby starts demanding disarmament police \? well , guess anti gun cops think armed , along wealthy politically connected , made realize screwing cut ways yet imagine know never happen police wings government , always considered important citizens government pens , paper considered important citizens think problem government
pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) subject gun like american express card organization university tennessee division continuing education lines 134 article cmm 0 90 2 thomasp surt ifi uio thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio writes overall crime rate fell like two questions , relevant numbers \( please note , way indication n't believe 're correct , drop occured relevant \) acquiring weapons norway buy \( almost \) kinds weapons norway , must permit , good reason get permit would like handgun , would get gun licence police member gun club primary objection \( beyond ones based ideal rkba simply something government \) makes guns play thing tool rich connected poor self defense considered appropriate , , conditions \? \( allowed , instance get gun protection 're going carrying large sum money regular basis threatened \) police would check criminal records serious crimes records serious mental diseases suggested u , generally supported among gun owners many object many , , proposals contain sort gotcha clause allows arbitrary denial , even qualify every way , got licence , would active member gun club 6 months could collect gun 's little like getting drivers licence n't \? \? \? prove drive allowed point , pointed general driver 's licence u part nothing like european counterpart understand getting one far difficult u 's joke usual objection 're discussing two different things instance , u driver 's license permit operate motor vehicle public road necessary one , operate private property , ability require driving permits generally considered arise government 's legitimate power enact reasonable regulations behavior public lands permit automobile , instance , far closer analogy , would much harder thing get past legally , since would n't based making regulations public property , restricting activity private property use guns crimes \( norway \) crimes commited guns owners long time , rather criminals accuire guns use crimes , mostly short time befor crime use knives allowed cary knifes public , belt 'open' \( americans \) think 's ok gun , carry open public rigth \? \? varies widely \( one thing think europeans difficult time u fifty unique jurisdictions , laws one state another radically different one country europe another \) places allow open carry guns knives allow concealed prohibit , allow one either state local individual vs masses yes individual important masses , extent criminal laws protect individuals makes masses \? \? happens individuals affects rights others \? \? question must asked right individual affecting rights individual usually get rights group \( meaning individuals within group , defined people guns , \) adversely affecting rights group instance , bob using gun attack steve , 'd point essentially 're discussing becuase person qualifies member group people guns third person , perhaps another time zone told member group taking away somebody else 's rights 's like trying punish newspapers libel commited one issue believe issue guns , gun legislation issue crime , violence , murder question extent guns gun legislation impact n't mix weapons items serve one lived amerika would probably gun defend home like \? \? course would nice n't fear people might get twisted little minds hurt us currently n't option expect think 's wise sell guns like candy \( states \) \? \? state case , 's limit state may enforce 's wisdom freedom general unwise concept pre restrict everything might unwise freedom becomes meaningless concept believe 's smart neccacery drivers licence think free buy guns \? \? 'll raise hand driver 's licenses currently implemented 're waste time little generation state ignored startling number drivers guarantee level skill higher necessary get car road get somebody else killed , knowledge traffic laws beyond ten year old picked riding around parents car , mentioned , 're two different things david veal univ tenn div cont education info services group pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu still remember way laughed , day pushed elevator shaft i'm beginning think n't love anymore weird al
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject hr 1276 \( gun law live ! \) organization stratus computer , inc lines 15 distribution usa nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article 1993apr15 dg rtp dg com , meyers leonardo rtp dg com \( bill meyers \) writes bill establish right obtain firearms security , use firearms defense self , family , home , provide enforcement right maybe i'm religious , see bill establish right , keep mind , law giveth , law taketh away cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject constitutionality 18 u c 922 \( \) organization stratus computer , inc lines 53 distribution usa nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article 1993apr15 atlastele com , brians atlastele com \( brian sheets \) writes know , reading 18 u c 922 something make sence wondering someone could help say u c 922 \( 1 \) except provided paragraph \( 2 \) , shall unlawful person transfer possess machinegun well got looking law dictionary found person might also artificial entity created government rights federal constitution , n't understand statute like 922 enforced individual someone tell government tell cannot possess passing law make law sorry , really ca n't figure 're trying say , everyone knows laws goes court exactly unconstitutional act law rights imposes duties protection creates office legal , though never passed norton vs shelby county , 118 us 425 p 442 general rule unconstitutional statute , though form name law , reality law , wholly void , ineffective purpose since dates time 's , merely date decision bound obey law , courts bound enforce 16 jur 2d , sec 177 late 2d , sec 256 , ever gone court , run mill ok guilty , put jail anyone ever claimed right possess told supreme court n't right \? automatic weapons \? supreme court never heard case cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
vojak icebucket stortek com \( bill vojak \) subject aclu policies originator vojak icebucket stortek com nntp posting host icebucket stortek com organization storage technology corp distribution usa lines 59 aclu official policies policy 18 , example , opposes rating systems motion pictures industry sponsored ratings systems create potential creative process thus contracting marketplace ideas despite stated goal providing guidance parents , experience shown ratings inevitably serious chilling effects freedom expression regards pledge allegiance , aclu states policy 84 insertion words pledge allegiance violation constitutional principle separation church state policy 120 states , military conscription circumstances violation civil liberties constitutional guarantees aclu objects draft even wartime anti democratic power gives government wage war without support people policy 125 states , aclu calls broad based inquiry war crimes within widest possible definition war crimes humanity , crimes peace , focusing upon actions united states military combatants people south vietnam , , cambodia , north vietnam policy 133 states , aclu recognizes us government reliance upon nuclear weaponry dominant element foreign domestic policy , defense democracy , fact great threat civil liberties four decades adherence policy fundamentally altered nature constitutional democratic process poses paramount threat civil liberties policy 217 objects roadblocks drivers stopped sobriety tests violate fourth amendment principles policy 242 states following criminal sentencing appropriate correctional approach offender community , goals much readily working offender within community incarceration authorized legislature every case exceptions principle favored , exceptions , made , limited serious offenses , murder treason bill vojak vojak icebucket stortek com nra , ila , colorado firearms coalition cbs nightly propaganda dan rather \( rather ! \) cbs nightly propaganda dan rather \( rather biased ! \)
vojak icebucket stortek com \( bill vojak \) subject upi news release originator vojak icebucket stortek com nntp posting host icebucket stortek com organization storage technology corp lines 82 upi washington dc , update desk 4 15 93 past several months clinton administration mixed signals coming economy leading indicators shown apparent improvement economy , corresponding improvement area jobs creation unemployment figures seem stalled 7 mark last month , effort understand problem , president clinton appointed blue ribbon panel try resolve apparent conflicting economic signals panel vice president gore today panel released results , providing shocking conclusion 's guns vice president gore said apparently nra members , gun nuts purchasing firearms record numbers , pulling economy recession buying five times faster ever , stockpiling left right , vice president said however , since many domestic firearm ammunition manufacturers experiencing hard times past years , including several declarations bankruptcy many leading american gun makers , rushed increase hiring meet new demand want see run continue hiring people , said president colt industries long clinton office , suspect , added response new information , president clinton announced new gun control measure introduced congress session 's called ban one month gun control bill terms law , every make model firearms written individual index cards cards put big hat president draw one card every month sixty days later gun banned manufacture importation sale country , except politically connected members national police force president said , law benefit america two ways gun month announced every thirty days , gun nuts run buy thousands , boosting economy even addition , long run , get evil guns street also announce appointment sarah brady oversee program , citing honesty , unbiased view subject gun control senators metzenbaum , deconcini , , boxer proposed amendment bill would add additional index cards containing caliber designations know ammunitions stockpiling , stockpiling , stockpiling screamed metzenbaum press conference national headquarters handgun control inc senators simon , metzenbaum , also introduced amendment would make guns illegal possess last card drawn hat senator simon quoted saying , first 'll fuck em , 'll kick em bed morning , press conference held second floor senate building course referring fact would allow people purchase guns help economy , would require batf seize guns america sometime year , cards drawn head batf responded saying , see thing waco may busy seize guns us house representatives pat schroeder david skaggs colorado declared proposed law reasonable gun control wo n't affect constitutional right sporting guns end article humor impaired \) \) \) \) \) \) \) \) \) bill vojak vojak icebucket stortek com nra , ila , colorado firearms coalition cbs nightly propaganda dan rather \( rather ! \) cbs nightly propaganda dan rather \( rather biased ! \)
arf genesis mcs com \( jack schmidling \) subject gritz jbs liberty lobby larouche christic insitute libertarian organization mcsnet contributor , chicago , il lines 28 nntp posting host localhost mcs com article usenet ins cwru edu cj195 cleveland freenet edu \( john w redelfs \) writes many aware gun control act 1968 verbatim translation nazi gun control law passed shortly holocaust \? think i'm paranoid asking questions , pray right unchecked democracies usually end dictatorship remember , germany democracy hitler rose power absolutely certain nothing like could happen today \? ca n't speak organizations cited everywhere look society government , one see relentless movement toward one world government fact media values patriotism , nationalism clues fact economic strength americans prop former possibly future enemy another fact words like community nations , global village international business vogue others international corporations destroying economy propaganda playing media government powering ability resist border people trade already lost great deal line single evil aspect one world government nowhere run history proven would disaster beware liberal conservative moderate think
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject gun like american express card organization stratus computer , inc lines 122 distribution world nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article cmm 0 90 2 thomasp surt ifi uio , thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio writes would like handgun , would get gun licence police member gun club police would check criminal records serious crimes records serious mental diseases , got licence , would active member gun club 6 months could collect gun , like , six months active \? town similar requirement , 's rather stupid buy handgun , active member gun club well , active without gun , chief \? gun owners feel check criminal records crimes mental disorders would good thing could n't abused government every time proposed , always trapdoor government deny purchase even perfectly qualified gun oppose 's little like getting drivers licence n't \? \? \? prove drive allowed since fatal accident rate licensed automobile drivers us around 50 times fatal accident rate largely unlicensed gun owners , 'd think twice using analogy besides , problem criminal use guns , accidents \( 500 , 000 criminal uses guns us every year 1 , 400 accidents \) n't think 's necessary spend lot energy making sure criminal shoot gun gets one like check , gun owners feel positively requiring safety courses could n't abused government already ! one state n't hold courses , another n't fund , third holds year limited political connections fair \? criminals accuire guns use crimes , mostly short time befor crime many acquire guns legal retail outlets \? many borrowed , stolen , smuggled , bought black market \? use knives allowed cary knifes public , belt 'open' \( americans \) think 's ok gun , carry open public rigth \? \? states allow open carry allow concealed carry allow allow , require licenses concealed carry say one modes clear advantage another terms reducing crime public good , state legislators someplace exactly wrong thing means really n't objective reasons laws preferences bad way govern scandinavians hot , decide take action \( hot love expression , say hot headed \) individual vs masses yes individual important masses , extent criminal laws protect individuals makes masses \? \? happens individuals affects rights others \? \? typically , criminals affect rights people criminals government offices rest criminals affect rights one people time , commission crime possession gun someone hurts one else something violent gun crime occurs course , crime felon ex felon possess gun , n't feel right treat common citizens lived good lives pre felons waiting commit crimes n't mix weapons items serve one n't understand sentence lived amerika would probably gun defend home like \? \? life n't fair n't need fire extinguisher either , flood theft insurance , lock doors house car better world wo n't anything address live one think 's wise sell guns like candy \( states \) \? \? none , i'm sure believe 's smart neccacery drivers licence think free buy guns \? \? frankly , i'm sure know good driver 's license anyone , either people drive safely never use , people drive drunk , drive without ! however , car good tool , one protects right life rank right life somewhere north right travel freely i'm pacifist anti gun would defend home , loved ones country , n't view guns toys done army service , used weapons , would n't want one self defence question whether want guns personally 's whether think people forced n't problem someone says would never gun problem someone says prevented owning one , cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject long gun hearings day massachusetts \( april 7 \) organization stratus computer , inc lines 263 distribution usa nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com co authored report two us gun owners action league , state rifle association , started day rally secluded courtyard behind 9 30 looking sparse \( 40 people \) speaker began , whereupon 120 people followed loudspeakers wherever lost , filled area something proud mike yacino goal spoke one best lines remind us us holders carry permits checked certified clear crimes state people behind us certified clean election fraud hold jobs nancy snow amos hamburger busy handing id buttons sheets describing bills presented hearings , telling people find representatives \( many cases , \) mike warned us committee going suspend rules discuss bill n't made onto official list seems delegation students simon 's rock bard college \( mater wayne lo , shot place sks late last year \) testify bill ban sales firearms ammo anyone state resident hearings originally scheduled \( large \) gardner auditorium 10 30 , pre empted governor 's hearings framingham eight \( women prison killing abusive husbands , seeking release \) 1 30 representatives , would squashed inadequate hearing room one staffers somewhat offensively smarmy said , oh , must gun hearings day ! gun lobby always organized every year got little pissed , replied , i'm gun lobby i'm district 12 30 , second reporter arrived time notice demonstration going front \( pro gunners n't \) randy price tv news , mirror reflective shades , talking one anti gun types , several simon 's rock anti gun close loophole protestors \( earlier , randy covered goal rally \) room assigned seated 50 remember , 160 gun owners , plus another 20 30 students teachers bard one us already reserved seat never got closer outside crowd behind cop took station entrance prevented rest crowd coming soon debate started , loudspeaker set outside hall benefit everyone else everyone \( inside outside \) got sign sheet saying position bills us signed support goal 's position bills first , time constraints , public officials got testify first bill nobody seen \( students curfew , guess \) currently , massachusetts law allows non resident purchase long guns ammo local dealer provided complies laws state previously , law similar , applied non residents states massachusetts simon 's rock folks called current law loophole wanted closed two reps spoke wayne lo sks assault rifle second one , , co sponsor , done homework well kept confusing montana \( wayne lo 's home state \) missouri , became five gun owners gallery corrected second carr , , claimed new bill would put law back way , lying new bill allows purchases non residents states licensing state strong massachusetts since none , 's things two said really offensive states , anyone buy gun long 's breathing ! \( ! \) , good gun laws massachusetts states would adopt type laws , would n't situation wo n't \( naughty , naughty ! \) next boston city albert o'neill testify pro gun , ways liability 's reasonably elderly tends wander repeat , plus 's almost caricature law n order politician aclu , said violent criminals executed , judge , 'd give last rights \( pun intended \) spot \( many gun owners applauded , bothered \) said proposed gun restrictions step right direction criminals said four times \( two bills consideration would allow police rescind ccw fid , confiscate guns , someone filed restraining order \( note filing restraining order requires warrant , hearing , evidence , conviction accusation \) senator barrett reading testified favor , pro gunners several times saying , i'm sure gun owners agree get weapons hands people courts convicted n't seen disingenuous performance since nixon n't crook barrett also spoke favor bill making fid card renewable every five years , instead permanent stated purpose remove fid cards become revenue nothing \( yeah , right \) apparently , congressmen think 're stupid enough swallow argument 's preferable process 1 6 million every cycle vague hope catching recent felon simply take goddamn card away criminal conviction time usual , hassle law abiding instead crook two co chairs committee rep caron sen n't say much \( co sponsor restraining order bills \) caron struck sharp guy would n't let bad logic lies part either side go \( co sponsor one restraining order bills well \) one younger reps committee \( forgot name \) pro gun , somewhat heart right place , arguments seemed confined , every year 's damn thing , come crap 's nice friend committee , could effective 3 00 , clear hall jam could n't continue someone came another meeting hall yelled cop loudspeaker disturbing meeting , loudspeaker disconnected found bigger hall upstairs one us leave catch charter bus , missed public testimony got seat time caron began talking got fid 16 years ago , left state , returned without notifying address change complained state record system date pd back city birth still thought lived great quote purchase gun today , get state computer system 1999 \( also argument used renewable fid card \) testimony heard several battered women , one attacked guy 20 's fid card got 15 thereabouts used lot emotion said scared men attorney general testified favor anti gun bill , saying 50 , 000 restraining orders granted last year , women needed protected caron noted restraining order granted 10 days , hearing held determine whether order would extended year asked whether would satisfied fid revoked time hearing rather initial issuance fid gave long rambling response testimony bill heard mike yacino \( looks something like einstein \) got made point restraining orders issued little evidence , judges like issue restraining orders let things cool matter think right \( man woman \) , hearings restraining orders lightning sessions little time consider facts atty karen spoke times testimony pro gunners got testify one said file restraining order tenant clear , countered filing one ! noted would allowed state confiscate guns new bill became law one junior reps noted america certain individual rights respected senator reiterated , saying people abuse smaller people go hell far care , careful equating conviction restraining order \( point match , senator \) another pro gunner got testified n't know citizenship expired every 5 years , driver 's license privilege , right like right keep bear arms third got said problem criminal justice system , argued favor death penalty bill public hangings senator said tried get death penalty bill passed , joking responded , , favored public hangings speaker responded , 'll make deal get rope , 'll tie noose next came public testimony simon 's rock bill teacher testified teacher wayne lo , would n't able shoot people inside building outside without evil gun said loophole closed prevent something like ever happening four five kids testified favor bill , one spilling tears good legislators one students actually shot wayne lo also many shirts , saying , long one person buy gun anger , none us safe support gun control committee reluctant grill correct kids , except caron , corrected one student claimed anyone could apply fid residents get fid 's , said \( much want bet kid idea testifying bill would cut completely \? \) yacino spoke , time noting bill written would affect ammo guns possessed karen also noted hunters ct , nh , vt could put away year wandered across boundary somewhere woods got challenged game yacino fact lo could gotten fid resident student , hell , even ccw , criminal mental record one junior rep upset would take residents longer buy gun , thought elitist another \( caron \? \) said need protection preventing non residents buying without fid two states union fid type cards , complying laws one 's home state enough one pro gun speaker replied resembled mother watching son marching band , everyone 's step johnny ! bard college people filing pro gun testimony bill made , thus pro gunners around bills came consideration main bills remaining \( goal 's position \) h four others notify police chiefs pull licenses holder convicted \( strongly supported \) h require trigger locks handguns sold \( opposed \) h 962 require trigger locks loaded firearms \( strongly opposed \) h 1350 allow every municipality enact gun laws \( opposed \) h fund bullet proof vests municipal police \( supported \) 1097 state constitutional amendment rkba \( supported \) several police discretion issuance fid cards \( opposed \) several altering non resident license conditions \( supported \) h 1135 ban damn near guns everywhere state \( guess ! \) took 30 seconds consider , remaining pro gunners raised hands unison either mike yacino noted , besides danger screwing trigger lock loaded gun , bill would make illegal licensee carry concealed handgun unless locked caron blew right h 1350 saw opposed , brought state 's archaic records capability said , would create hundreds different licensing systems session ran late since last scheduled hearing , could everyone wanted testified ended 6 30 cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
arc cco caltech edu \( aaron ray clements \) subject hr 1276 \( gun law live ! \) organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 27 distribution usa nntp posting host sandman caltech edu cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) writes article 1993apr15 dg rtp dg com , meyers leonardo rtp dg com \( bill meyers \) writes bill establish right obtain firearms security , use firearms defense self , family , home , provide enforcement right maybe i'm religious , see bill establish right , keep mind , law giveth , law taketh away cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet n't think objection beyond bounds rationality right mentioned bill already established second amendment bill reaffirm second amendment rkba , establish procedures redress federal court system right already exists already embodied constitution aaron arc cco caltech edu
fcrary ucsu colorado edu \( frank crary \) subject clinton wants national id card , aka ussr style internal passport nntp posting host ucsu colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 21 article boi hp com slack boi hp com \( david slack \) writes idea card bull self , i'm curious know , plan making requirement always , going required presented trying ge medical aid \? , least , already determined blue cross medical coverage federal employees good model future national system get emergency medical care , anyone insured must always carry blue cross card entering hospital , must notify blue cross , refuse pay bills emergency , must treated notifying , must inform within 24 hours \( unable medical reasons \) hospital must failing within 24 hours means cover hospitalization need card notify \( without card , hospital certainly would n't know \) therefore , required carry card times , without emergency medical coverage frank crary cu boulder
cathy lance colostate edu \( cathy smith \) subject upi news release nntp posting host blanca lance colostate edu organization colorado state university , fort collins , co 80523 lines 12 cathy smith posting l neil smith dear bill , good made whole day post thanks lot l neil smith opinions , course ,
organization university illinois chicago , academic computer center jason kratz u28037 uicvm uic edu subject gun like american express card distribution usa 93104 173826u28037 uicvm uic edu 1993apr15 csd newshost stanford edu lines 28 article 1993apr15 csd newshost stanford edu , andy sail stanford edu \( andy freeman \) says shooting range gang members practicing shooting know gang members undercover cops even law abiding menacing minorities btw sneer quotes \? know area gun shop shooting range right border west side chicago gang infested area many , many bad things going area also , several friends live close area problems folks way , say minorities \? think minorities gangs \? far quotes concerned totally obvious n't practicing marksmanship n't know never seen anyone else practice marksmanship taking gun coat fast possible start shooting would andy would 've obvious course might knows know , live know gang bangers live long enough becomes pretty easy spot via gang colors , gang signs , etc one last thing sister social worker makes point find things \( gang signs , colors , etc \) best interest nice enough let know things watch live right border west side city enough said jason
druwa att com \( \) subject ban firearms ! lines 16 article pandora sdsu edu , chiu io nosc mil \( francis chiu \) writes note lighter side , 've noticed gun banners \( friends included \) one make comments indicate likely resort violent really banning guns would n't end shooting someone else \? could also likely since feel likely resort violence , hard time believing anyone else would react otherwise david olson drutx att com well , say 'll put 'll put n't know put put george
druwa att com \( \) subject 'pill' deer hunting lines 20 article 1993apr14 gnv ifas ufl edu , jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes vast majority get life without ever , use display firearm given society experience seems safer get rid many guns possible considering uses include self defense , hunting , target shooting collecting , n't buy notion vast majority people n't , use display firearm let 's say contention true 's point get ting rid many guns possible , n't used anyway \? david olson drutx att com well , say 'll put 'll put n't know put put george
joan koala berkeley edu \( \) subject newspapers censoring gun advertisements organization u c berkeley lines 24 nntp posting host koala berkeley edu n't know traders claiming , appears oakland tribune censored gun ads past likewise san francisco chronicle , never seen gun ad san francisco examiner specifically , year ago , traders placed ads , ad would graphics representing handgun sale , though text could list would run graphic handgun examiner would traders ad past year oakland politicians made lot noise measures fight crime stopped taking traders ad , started publishing , without handgun graphic , stopped , started since sold months ago traders ad one non ad traders employee told refused take ads yes , usual thursday ad today , graphics representing rifles , , etc usual joan v
fcrary ucsu colorado edu \( frank crary \) subject insane gun toting wackos unite ! ! ! nntp posting host ucsu colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder distribution na lines 40 know many deaths year caused self inflicted gun shot wounds people wearing thigh holsters \? roughly 1200 fatal , firearms related accidents year large majority involve rifles shotgun 500 fatal handgun accidents year really doubt occur pistol holstered , number self inflicted gunshot wounds people wearing thigh holsters probably well 250 per year fall , example , land handgun cause sudden blow , gun discharge handguns designs included hammer block since around 1960 earlier metal part physically seperates cartridge firing pin even impact , gun cannot fire hammer block connected trigger pulled way trigger pulled result , modern pistols fire trigger pulled \( cases , cocked hand dropped \) number people killed manner far outweighs number deaths caused animal attacks wacko attacks combined n't know animal attacks , 23 , 500 murders year 500 die manner suggest 2 1 murders killings wacko , would wrong worse , also 102 , 500 rapes 1 , 055 , 000 aggravated assaults year numbers make violent attacks , preventing , thousands times significant accidents worried \( figures , way , fbi 's uniform crime report 1990 'll stop library tomorrow look national crime victimization survey , specific crimes occured \) frank crary cu boulder
lvc cbnews cb att com \( larry cipriani \) subject deconcini ten years ago today organization ideology busters , inc distribution usa lines 120 dennis deconcini , 1982 similar areas , bureau violated dictates common sense , 5 u c sec 552 , intended prevent secret administrative bodies practices , documented hearings sub committee , leave little doubt bureau disregarded rights guaranteed constitution laws united states trampled upon second amendment chilling exercise right keep bear arms law abiding citizens offended fourth amendment unreasonably search ing seizing private property ignored fifth amendment taking private property without compensation honest citizens regard right due process law rebuttal presented subcommittee bureau utterly unconvincing richard davis , speaking behalf treasury department , asserted vaguely bureau 's priorities aimed prosecuting willful , particularly felons possession , confiscating guns actually likely used crime also asserted bureau recently made great strides toward achieving priorities offered either assertions hearings batf 's appropriations subcommittee , however , expert evidence submitted establishing approximately 75 percent batf gun aimed ordinary citizens neither criminal intent knowledge , agents technical violations \( 97th congress 2d session committee print h e r g h k e e p n b e r r report subcommittee constitution committee judiciary united states senate ninety seventh congress second session february , 1982 printed use committee judiciary u government printing office 88 618 washington 1982 letter constituent april 1993 thank contacting regarding bureau alcohol , tobacco , firearms \( atf \) , federal law enforcement agency jurisdiction firearms violations regulations experience chairman appropriations subcommittee treasury , postal service general government funds atf , atf one competent highly professional law enforcement agencies federal government agents atf proven value successful , legal operations unlawful possession use firearms , especially area drug related crimes enforces armed career criminal act calls mandatory minimum sentences repeat felons using firearms carry illegal activity bureau made key component preventing gang related violence , also , educating risk youth dangers gang membership well depriving known gangs access weapons waco , texas case involved execution search warrants atf branch davidians illegal firearms explosives possession \( automatics , semi automatics , machine guns , addition bombs explosives \) virtually every gun case , atf asked trace weapons its' national firearms tracing center , keep dealer federal firearms license information atf federal firearms expert routinely works state local police execute warrants atf , working state local law enforcement texas u office felt necessary execute warrants order legally establish crime committed conclude long thorough investigation illegal gun explosives held members branch davidians addition , atf carefully selected sunday morning , knowing source , inside , men would separated women children area known illegal weapons stored may aware , vernon howell k david koresh spiritual leader branch davidians tipped impending execution search warrants unfortunately , atf lost element surprise cult able arm prepare entry compound hostage situation presented , atf asked fbi become involved since fbi skilled hostage negotiations addition , military tanks brought due serious nature situation firepower branch davidians based learned atf 's role branch davidian raid , believe agency acted , however , deeply saddened loss lives 4 law enforcement agents attempted enter compound civilian members cult fully expect department treasury conduct thorough evaluation representatives law enforcement outside department headed assistant secretary enforcement addition , atf conduct its' review waco operation look forward reviewing findings hope situation waco brought quick peaceful conclusion sincerely , dennis deconcini chairman subcommittee treasury , postal service general government april 7 , 1993 larry cipriani l v cipriani att com
lvc cbnews cb att com \( larry cipriani \) subject crimestrike alert texas organization ideology busters , inc distribution usa keywords crime strike lines 69 fellow texans members crime strike texas crime strike texas loosely coalition victims rights groups texas ask write letter protesting release following murderer letter written victims services board p box capital station austin , texas letter written possible red paper agreed one first meetings represents coalition parts well heart ache left behind blood spilled criminals letter one name filed folder criminal waiting next try parole list criminals today one parole protest , october 4 , 1990 , mark steven hughes rendered numerous blows head james allen ten month old james went coma died two days later july 8 , 1992 , mark steven hughes guilty injury child received ten year sentence according texas law , mark became eligible parole january 4 , 1992 six months even sentenced ! would join us strongly protesting release prison mark steven hughes , beat baby death mark steven hughes beat death baby boy russel reference mark steven hughes mark envelope protest letter front back typical letter indicated next page thank much irvin wilson volunteer crime strike texas date april 13 , 1993 victims services board p box capital station austin , texas protest parole mark steven hughes , , murdered james son russel kept prison full sentence released time prior full sentence reason irvin wilson houston , texas larry cipriani l v cipriani att com
lvc cbnews cb att com \( larry cipriani \) subject ohio legislative alert h b 278 organization ideology busters , inc distribution usa keywords otto beatty goes gun ban lines 21 ohio house representative , april 6 , 1993 h b 278 representative beatty section 2923 11 , 2923 17 , 2923 20 enact n 2923 181 revised code expand dangerous ordinance include military weapons use bolt action , increase penalty violation possesion dangerous ordinance , prohibit person acquiring military weapon date , require military weapons acquired proper purpose prior effective date , prohibit person importing , manufacturing , selling military weapon , declare emergency monday , april 12 , 1993 h b 278 assigned committee introduced emergency measure passes chance , would go effect immediately opposed state requirement 90 days law goes effect larry cipriani l v cipriani att com
lvc cbnews cb att com \( larry cipriani \) subject ohio legislative alert h b 287 organization ideology busters , inc distribution usa keywords mourning dove hunting season lines 14 ohio house representative thursday , april 8 , 1993 h b 287 representatives , davis , , , johnson , van , , white , di donato , boggs , logan amend section 01 revised code add mourning dove game bird list permit chief division department natural resources regulate hunting mourning , make appropriation would allow hunting mourning ohio give something pushing larry cipriani l v cipriani att com
organization university illinois chicago , academic computer center u23590 uicvm uic edu subject gritz jbs liberty lobby larouche christic insitute libertarian lines 5 note bo gritz populist party ticket david duke \( veep \) 1988 found duke leading ticket , withdrew candidacy gritz gave chance vice president us supporting duke
pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) subject insane gun toting wackos unite ! ! ! lines 21 organization university tennessee division continuing education distribution na article 1993apr16 ucsu colorado edu fcrary ucsu colorado edu \( frank crary \) writes know many deaths year caused self inflicted gun shot wounds people wearing thigh holsters \? roughly 1200 fatal , firearms related accidents year large majority involve rifles shotgun 500 fatal handgun accidents year really doubt occur pistol holstered , number self inflicted gunshot wounds people wearing thigh holsters probably well 250 per year i'm neither doctor firearms tech expert , would seem given way holstered gun points , accidental injuries inflicted way would among least lethal david veal univ tenn div cont education info services group pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu still remember way laughed , day pushed elevator shaft i'm beginning think n't love anymore weird al
cescript mtu edu \( charles scripter \) subject gun control nntp posting host fsh mtu edu organization help , server 's fallen , ca n't get \( mtu \) x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 185 article 2k7 ulowell ulowell edu jrutledg cs ulowell edu \( john lawrence rutledge \) wrote article gap caltech edu arc cco caltech edu \( aaron ray clements \) writes second amendment guarantee right bear arms clearly unequivocally , without infringement unfortunately second amendment clear state last part taken along , follows said problem first part single sentence makes amendment second amendment well regulated militia , necessary security militia free state , right people keep bear state arms , shall infringed arms n't even get capitalization correct ! try reading usca constitution , get correct version constitution mention well regulated militia confuses according federalist paper 's , well regulated militia well defined structure follows nationally uniform regulations perhaps actually read federalist papers ! ! james madison , federalist paper 46 besides advantage armed , americans possess people almost every nation , existence subordinate governments , people attached , militia officers appointed , forms barrier enterprises ambition , simple government form admit notwithstanding military establishments several kingdoms europe , carried far public resources bear , governments afraid trust people arms james madison , annals congress 434 , 8 june 1789 right people keep bear arms shall infringed well regulated militia , composed body people , trained arms , best natural defense free country alexander hamilton , federalist paper 29 \( organization militia \) little reasonably aimed , respect people large , properly armed equipped order see neglected , necessary assemble twice course year alexander hamilton , federalist paper 29 \( speaking standing armies \) circumstances time oblige government form army magnitude army never formidable liberties people large body citizens , little , , inferior discipline use arms , stand ready defend rights fellow citizens surely hamilton madison n't mean people said people , right \? 's amendment refers right militia \? \) average 17 45 year old male fall definition 're right , militia consists able males \( probably females current interpretation \) therefore members militia , one every gun advocate refers , members well organized militia therefore directly amendment refer well organized , says well regulated targets may examine wish check well regulated mentioned amendment amendment wanted allow every member militia keep bear arms , mention well organized militia sentence right keep bear arms \? correct 's right reserved people insure people could form well regulated militia , well organized militia could argued first part sentence separate last part , include atomic unit written atomic units argument \? moron set h bar c 1 instead separate sentence \? oh , see question n't read federalist papers \? ! james madison , federalist paper 41 \( regarding general welfare clause \) nothing natural common first use general phrase , explain qualify recital particulars madison know grammatical style 2nd \? wrote amendment also implies right arms due security free state federalist paper 's mention well regulated militia gives many examples militia protects security free state examples actions organized force , john q public gun 's obviously 've never actually read federalist papers second amendment clearly states people 's right form well regulated militias shall infringed people right join well organized militia well organized militia , course , provide training use arms basic military tactics training members militia keep bear arms ca n't read , huh \? show document says well organized militia lastly , reading federalist paper 's well organized militia clear many reasons militias one reason stated protection standing army days standing army could easily defeat group consisting every 17 45 year old male female forces exactly every person allowed weapon currently use armed forces another reason stated well organized militias reduced need standing army well , us forces standing army half history us major reason protect army seems whole reason second amendment , give people protection us government guaranteeing people government necessary , little bit anachronism day age maybe time think done amend constitution appropriately abraham lincoln , first inaugural address , march 4 , 1861 country , institutions , belongs people inhabit whenever shall grow weary existing government , exercise constitutional right , revolutionary right overthrow rep gerry massachusetts , spoken floor debate second amendment , annals congress 750 , 17 august 1789 , sir , use militia \? prevent establishment standing army , bane liberty whenever governments mean invade rights liberties people , always attempt destroy militia , order raise army upon ruins know category mr rutledge means destroy liberties rights charles scripter cescript phy mtu edu dept physics , michigan tech , houghton , mi 49931 government little great things , shall drawn washington centre power , render powerless checks provided one government another become venal oppressive government separated thomas jefferson , 1821
viking iastate edu \( dan sorenson \) subject nuclear heavy weapons militia long organization iowa state university , ames ia lines 194 fcrary ucsu colorado edu \( frank crary \) writes 170 odd lines must making progress ! ironic note , deleted lines emacs continually gave message garbage collecting done think 's trying tell something \? viking iastate edu \( dan sorenson \) writes thank 's great change tired old debates join time , know ! ahhh talk politics guns , gentler newsgroup would thought \? , exactly reason sort restriction possible endangerment others poorly maintained rifle dangerous , user since n't endanger others , justification restrictions remind shrapnel consider 5' reasonable space limitation , make mistake gun blowing hazard nearby , say next lane range point distance , level threat , draw line endangerment others , 5' restriction , possibility shot , hence draw 1 5 mile restriction , nuke draw 5 mile restriction \? al suffer fundamental flaw restrict based upon instrument rather placing responsibility usage squarely upon shoulders user perhaps sen metzenbaum declaring barrett light fifty assault rifle made apparent , since barrett range going determined lives worth effort protect homes families using nuclear weapons close home accomplish disagree , grounds house rebuilt much easily family died assume word would get citizens attack planned case , tactical strategic implications change quite bit personally , home worth , say , twenty intent taking world family \? balancing act hard judge sitting desk , however , another problem case civil war , strength militias fighting side reflect popular public split 67 versus 33 , militias 2 1 disadvantage need popular support would , hopefully , prevent unless people really behind rebels heavy weapons owned small fraction militia could distort 33 minority included tank artillery owners \? seems case already , given heavy weapons n't commonly owned citizenry low numbers , obviously due cost , n't think superior weapons going great effect numerically superior foe furthermore , even doubtful training includes proper tactical movements best utilize tanks , whereas commonly rifleman hampered effectiveness think vital avoid situation , small minority would reasonable chance gaining political power violence prevent , may necessary give control heavy weapons \( e g small number individuals would whose firepower would grossly distort relation popular support military strength \) someone individual militiamen certainly good thing , think lesser two evils whoever controls weapons must democratic body , responsive people envisioned , perhaps officers select group , like would exercise control heavier , complex weapons , joe bob owns old sherman tank certainly would n't ask give follow orders officers , yes since expense tank large , though , chances would jointly purchased therefore jointly maintained operated , think state talking certainly one role militia overthrow repressive government , would completely destructive end government control militia 's arms united states several levels government , able act independently , likely targets , state local governments unlikely think , therefore , state \( possibly local \) governments could safely allowed keep select militia 's heavy weapons risk abuse , still something consider , far less similar risk federal government control 'll agree point state control heavy weapons justification state centrally located keep spread , ability state lock n't easy otherwise , would assume state control would rest authority governor militia officers think removed select militia militia 's heavy weapons highly trained specialists reasons outlines , think heavy weapons \( tanks , artillery , aircraft , etc \) better kept local governments small number individuals however , local governments n't able use select militia without support people ideally , general militia , direct control people , select militia , direction democratic , local governments , would together even worst case , general militia able functional without select militia similarly , select militia incapable action without aid general militia i'm hard time seeing heavy weapons , fairly numbers , could easily people government support argued weapons democratic control one side n't , ca n't see situation alleviated select militia holding weapons unorganized militia infantry think better mix called , would argue federal army rely upon select militia unorganized militia bulk infantry units consider , , effect removing national guard 's infantry placing guard control local governments government controled select militia could fight effectively without infantry support provided general militia \( inherently infantry organization \) hand , general militia could function \( although disadvantage \) without backing local governments select militia assume would would side government controlled forces , 've equipment infantry force 3x size would trouble 'd like see heavy stuff , say tanks , offset local troups 105 's anti tank weapons armory would much useful infantry tank would cost training requirements figured suppose i'm constitutes heavy equipment mechanized infantry unit builds times flood , sets disaster relief cities , like would much rather see things handled local , general militias would , resources often n't available outfit local units well enough thus , certainly call others , mechanized unit carries stuff faster anything else perhaps national guard n't close conception select militia thought considering heavy weapons armor arm militia , infantry arm regular army perhaps ideas heavy weapons different \? think main battle tanks , self propelled artillery , field pieces heavy stuff troop carriers , 2 1 2 ton trucks , 's , old m60 tanks , 105 , stuff mechanized infantry actually , guard units iowa currently fielding units perhaps innate fear real heavy equipment state control , little numbers light stuff act deterrent allowing main battle tanks states balanced anti tank capability local ranks similarly , local units would need band together quickly , hence small fast response means mechanized infantry finally , militia fighting equipment needed responses federal army , i'm convinced , infantry , relying state local militias functions dan sorenson , dod 1066 z1dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu censors read , say n't blame usenet post exotic , distant machines meet exciting , unusual people flame
viking iastate edu \( dan sorenson \) subject gun like american express card organization iowa state university , ames ia lines 108 thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio writes hate long postings , turned rather lengthy 's ok mail want discussion acquiring weapons norway buy \( almost \) kinds weapons norway , must permit , good reason get permit around , long guns proof age fill forms pistols , nation wide check felonies three days wait good reason difference , one americans tend get annoyed see reason guy badge better us 's little like getting drivers licence n't \? \? \? prove drive allowed dealing america drive 18 wheel truck permit , license , age 12 i'm engaged farming work strange , , little problem , personal rights versus collective security crimes commited guns owners long time , rather criminals accuire guns use crimes , mostly short time befor crime strange rates would decline , since killing somebody much upon merely stealing gun use knives allowed cary knifes public , belt 'open' \( americans \) think 's ok gun , carry open public rigth \? \? attract attention \? carry sword openly practice , legal thing also attract lot attention 'd rather lost crowd one subject attention carrying weapon think word intimidation see intimidation preferable method normal citizen scandinavians hot , decide take action ask historian knowledge europe \( ask german served norway ww2 \) aggressive towards \? \? germans \? precisely think society less violent , weapons aside yes individual important masses , extent criminal laws protect individuals makes masses \? \? happens individuals affects rights masses \? \? editor barf dan masses rights individuals , everything comes individual one instance another draw analogy , norway involved eec usa involved nato eec requires certain changes laws nato requires changes usa law laws affect citizens , hence norway saying europe important , say , motorcycles make usa , 'd likely tell eec get stuffed since eec business , eyes , telling us much horsepower safely ride note state governments often play game federal government , essence cultural difference us lived amerika would probably gun defend home like \? \? n't since neither countries managed remove criminals society , america feel \( remember individual states larger country \) police cannot protect us must criminals country quite violent , hence prepare think 's wise sell guns like candy \( states \) \? \? believe 's smart neccacery drivers licence think free buy guns \? \? n't e mail find difficult really country easier , theft far easier troubles go purchase would defend home , loved ones country , n't view guns toys neither option would never force guns lived would , however , fight keep option open done army service , used weapons , would n't want one self defence show responsible , rational user weapons welcome ranks , teach young people sort responsibility \? cultures seem grave impact notice n't use great grandfather 's name well , n't like much either \) dan sorenson , dod 1066 z1dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu censors read , say n't blame usenet post exotic , distant machines meet exciting , unusual people flame
halat pooh bears \( jim halat \) subject silly outdated bill \( koresh miranda \) reply halat pooh bears \( jim halat \) lines 9 article 1993apr14 cbnews cb att com , lvc cbnews cb att com \( larry cipriani \) writes move incident , n't mayor philadelphia time black \? first move incident \( bomb , several members killed gunfire , circa 1978 \) mayor white frank second \( bomb included \) mayor wilson , indeed black jim halat
yoony aix rpi edu \( young hoon yoon \) subject scoop waco road , please keywords topical , nntp posting host aix rpi edu lines 62 cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) writes lite posting day , rec humor funny article looking ca , tti com \( pete \) writes new ice cream flavor inspired incident waco 's called mount , 's full nuts ca n't get carton cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet even though find funny surface , original poster joke tried convicted members bd bunch nuts may dangerous thing opinion educated well informed people country distrust government exist bureaucracy , government given enough time tend exist self original purpose created distrust people keep power line properly functioning press oriented press group people nuts crazies , violation people 's civil rights seem justified since , american 's , gurantee rights enumerated constitution , include 2nd ammendment , government must appease public 's opinion risk voted existance , become corrupt enough tamper process , thrown force government stands , must appease public therefore official press releases portray bd 's fanatics threat public safety must people based one sided information far information given comming agency bd \( branch davidians sp \? \) advantage make bd 's fanatical dangerous possible portrayed law abiding citizen 's , \( atf \) justification ever let 's keep open mind jokes like , even though may funny , may mislead public truth matter aside , understanding u vs rock island u vs dalton leads believe national firearms act , allows fed 's \( case atf \) regulate firearms \( machine guns \) , deemed unconstitutional since 1986 \( two federal district courts least \) since , believe reason atf involved case firearms violations , would interesting find whether search warrent based nfa would embarrassing indeed search warrent based possibly unconstitutional law resulted 4 deaths \( law enforcement \) opinions mine mine i'm solely responsible opinions actions must flame flame away , well constructed argument much respected young hoon yoon yoony rpi edu 211 north hall rpi edu rensselaer polytechnic institute 2 \( former \) troy , ny 12180
tsmith cs cmu edu \( tom smith \) subject clinton wants national id card , aka ussr style internal passport nntp posting host seismo soar cs cmu edu organization school computer science , carnegie mellon lines 34 article 1993apr16 ucsu colorado edu fcrary ucsu colorado edu \( frank crary \) writes article boi hp com slack boi hp com \( david slack \) writes idea card bull self , i'm curious know , plan making requirement always , going required presented trying ge medical aid \? , least , already determined blue cross medical coverage federal employees good model future national system get emergency medical care , anyone insured must always carry blue cross card entering hospital , must notify blue cross , refuse pay bills emergency , must treated notifying , must inform within 24 hours \( unable medical reasons \) hospital must failing within 24 hours means cover hospitalization need card notify \( without card , hospital certainly would n't know \) therefore , required carry card times , without emergency medical coverage frank crary cu boulder works fine end hospital hit head wallet , insurance card , stolen happened , took six months sort mess sorts plans sound nice first , end create lot paperwork bureaucracy deal checking filing involve tom non hacker tsmith seismo soar cs cmu edu return address set wrong , send personal response address
holland cs colostate edu \( douglas craig holland \) subject guns backcountry \? thanks nntp posting host beethoven cs colostate edu organization colorado state university , computer science department lines 27 hmm , would n't manditory saftey classes , registration owner gun , manditory liability insurance nice gun owners two , pointed significant difference making rules use public property making rules ownership half objection trust similar things tried many local across country , abused far many cases safety classes never , never funded , one two held year limited number participants registration lists new york , chicago , california used confiscation many gun owners would , theory , support planes \( although numbers overwhelmingly show competence problem , intentional misuse \) 've simply seen abused leery next person comes pike reasonable suggestion 've already seen abused gun safety classes sound good theory , kind remind literacy tests used bad old days keep blacks voting came grandfather clause grandfather could vote , could vote sort like gun safety laws let political ass guns doug holland
tomgift uxa cso uiuc edu \( tom gift \) subject batf fbi revenge keywords batf fbi korash child abuse guns murder control organization university illinois urbana lines 10 pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) writes well , maybe overreacting probably best part post everything else shrill speculation tom gift tomgift uxa cso uiuc edu
rats cbnewsc cb att com \( morris cat \) subject rewording second amendment \( ideas \) organization lines 29 believe individuals right weapons mass destruction \? find hard believe would support neighbor 's right keep nuclear weapons , biological weapons , nerve gas property law prohibiting biological weapons nerve gas property , even walking government property items facto one 's right weapons mass destruction hell , u patent office patents manufacture nerve gas anyone obtain simply sending 1 50 patent office washington , c \( p box 8 \) patents english citizens patent office , n't surprise based mistrust uk government private ownership semi automatic rifles cannot even agree keeping weapons mass destruction hands individuals , hope us \? , saying legislation prohibiting owning biological warfare agents nerve agents \? pass laws owning chlorine gas cyanide well \? pass laws owning acetylene gas could used bradley branch dividians known anti combustion engine effects \? pass laws owning 5 gallon cylinders propane could used flame throwers \? yes , proverbial road hell 's always good
nntp posting host holmenkollen ifi uio thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio subject change name \? \? organization dept informatics , university oslo , norway lines 23 originator thomasp holmenkollen ifi uio 1 make new newsgroup called talk politics guns paranoid talk politics guns they'r take away 2 move postings waco burn \( guess \) 3 stop posting newsgroup glad 're trying save us evil goverment , would mail regular mail let 's say 1000 people \? \? \? \? signature 's merely computergenerated text waste bandwith bring evil internet thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio
mhamilto nimitz mcs kent edu \( lawnmowerman \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! keywords nata thing ! ! nntp posting host nimitz mcs kent edu reply matthew hamilton organization kent state university cs lines 68 article 93109 13404334aej7d cmuvm bitnet , 34aej7d cmuvm bitnet writes surprised post makes past censors , goes monday , 19 april , 1993 13 30 edt murder foul ! ! cnn reporting write atf ignited buildings branch dividian ranch near waco , tx lies atf say holes made walls 'non lethal' tear gas pumped minutes started whole thing went buildings aflame one escaped think obvious atf used armored flame thrower vehicles pump unlit napalm , let wood stove inside ignite murder ! atf murderers ! butchers ! ! genocidal mass slaughter innocent people , including children ! predicted start , god , sickens see happen hoped wrong hoped still shred america grew , loved , left alive wrong nazis repeat , time survivors ! god help us please crosspost let get away slaughter children ! w k gorman american tears flame ! ! guy serious \? \? \? \? would ever really pay attention news \( oops forgot media part loves jump right top story facts known , well manipulate see thus believe \) ways one koresh 's devoted followers repeat survive genocidal mass slaughter innocent people besides nine survivors burn unit local hospital reported david one towers shit hit fan besides , majority children children supposed father , makes bastard children sacraligious \( sp \) also someone told david followers ca n't heat stay kitchen ! ! \( pun intended \) flame yah wanna fight , fight ! ! matthew r hamilton mhamilto mcs kent edu k cs physics major ksuvxb kent edu \( lawnmowerman \) kent state university ksuvxb kent edu look future advice quotes sayings
dbernard clesun central sun com \( dave bernard \) subject ax atf organization sun microsystems lines 14 distribution world reply dbernard clesun central sun com nntp posting host clesun central sun com true , congress said possesion unlicensed automatic weapon violation law congress , however , say possesion capital offense transgression worth getting four good government agents killed 16 others wounded even capital offense , warrant even arrest warrant , search warrant words , evidence illegal arms , enough suggestion get judge sign license search illegal evidence question rodney king case , us doj institute criminal civil rights proceedings batf \? least investigation \? ok , sorry asked
dianem boi hp com \( diane mathews \) subject batf fbi revenge organization hewlett packard boise , idaho lines 18 vain hope honest investigation occur thing \? simply whitewashed rug , business usual continue order day new order \? given official title thought police , wonder \? clinton friends way , \( highly likely point \) new order government also guns 1984 going ten years late think going discover paying dearly putting fellow office decades come even die hard supporters serious doubts savior ahem see war drugs , sponsored bush reagan administrations precedent well set federal agencies step people consider rights wo n't make excuses anyone , damage done clinton even entered race '92
kevin axon usa \( kevin vanhorn \) subject batf fbi murders almost everyone waco today ! 4 19 organization usr users kevin organization lines 15 nntp posting host axon cs byu edu reply roby chopin udel edu 's message tue , 20 apr 1993 05 53 07 gmt article c5rpoj ijv news udel edu roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) writes two nine escaped compound said fire deliberately set cult members correction fbi says two nine escaped said fire deliberately set cult members since press kept miles away , absolutely independent verification government 's claims matter kevin van horn religion batf approved \? vanhorn bert cs byu edu
dswartz osf org \( dan swartzendruber \) subject ax atf organization open software foundation research institute distribution usa lines 64 comments atf 's botched handling case 1 attempting storm compound broad daylight \? explanation given \( least one point \) thought cult members would religious services comment bit idiocy 're going operate quasi military unit , 'd better understand basic military tactics one cardinal rule fool plans operation one assumption incorrect , operation fail 2 told atf got four agents killed , n't expect heavy resistance questioned overwhelming military style assault planned , told cultists thought heavily armed say contradictory \? knew could ! 3 batf bad reputation years bunch arrogant , talking relatives couple weeks ago referred bunch crockett i'm ever convinced 's right target anecdote related waco fiasco apparently batf screwed evidence world trade center bombing 's excellent chance forensic evidence gathered fbi admissible court hearsay told relative wife 's happens fbi agent opinion batf , ummm , well , let 's say 4 still presented one iota evidence bd 's alleged illegal weaponry reason raid first place btw , 're still hearing justification ag reno , cnn yesterday , made references issue , without substantiation also waved around 's child abuser heard beating children ! flag sigh 5 point feds general handling whole siege reflected complete lack understanding probable thought processes cultists ag reno said pushed button afraid mass suicide offing comment cultists close edge , hell think reaction would hours long assault compound holes punched walls cs gas pumped \? bd , 'd expect forces godless government assault time light , whether torched drank jim jones kool aid irrelevant also , look siege conducted bright lights , loud rock music , cutting communications contact outside measures designed make bd 's feel isolated threatened might great strategy dealing criminals , looks like everything fed koresh 's paranoid delusions include std disclaimer h dan
stud cs uit \( paal \) subject batf fbi murders almost everyone waco today ! 4 19 organization university tromsoe lines 17 article 1r0qsrinnc61 clem handheld com , jim de arras writes mr roby , government sucking heartless bastard humans died yesterday , humans would died fbi taken actions undeniable truth question long \? even fbi done nothing , guess bds would committed suicide , maybe hunger thirst gave choice surrender bds warned beforehand fbi action chance surrender get fair trial matter started fire , bds responsible 80 dying one else paal 67 102 083 stud cs uit 9100 data til alle
hrubin pop stat purdue edu \( herman rubin \) subject gritz jbs liberty lobby larouche christic insitute libertarian organization purdue university statistics department lines 49 article 1993apr17 ccsvax sfasu edu f gautjw ccsvax sfasu edu writes article kckluge krusty eecs umich edu , kckluge eecs umich edu \( karl kluge \) writes i'm sure people big fans pissed emergence modern nation state imagine , king allowing freedom could live city year ! times change , technology changes , viable forms social organization change concerns preserving western notions civil liberties face cultures different values valid one , 's waste effort try turn back tide 's much smarter focus trying make sure emerging forms social organization response yet another sign trend towards one world government many people , otherwise probably intelligent , show every sign successfully brainwashed n't recognize inevitable tide rolling chaos way represents advance civilization us indeed passing old forms , bill rights , indeed inalienable rights man cannot changed , transferred surrendered rights man far yes , napoleon wanted grand new order hitler wanted thousand year reich lenin knew would give us universal new man new world order much old tired garbage pathetic part many americans seem put trust princes biblical proverb modern analog governments time founding us , idea citizens rights government common , explicit writings founders considerable extent , also rights yes , times change , technology changes possibility governments mankind possible quite recently feudal system , lord almost restricted , people make anything better feudal lords , even , freedom speech freedom religion real attack herman rubin , dept statistics , purdue univ , west lafayette 1399 phone \( 317 \) 494 hrubin snap stat purdue edu \( internet , bitnet \) purdue , pur ee ! snap stat ! hrubin \( uucp \)
jbs rti rti org subject batf fbi murders almost everyone waco today ! 4 19 organization joe 's bar grill lines 16 article c5rpoj ijv news udel edu roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) writes well 40 days come hands national tv get trial deserved instead chose set fire compund hours tanks dropped tear gas third person 's fbi 's line fires set six hours tear gas injected suppose want explain us videotape footage shown national tv last night tank gas injecting tubes pulling injection tubes second story building building begins smoke fire \? tell joe
lvc cbnews cb att com \( larry cipriani \) subject gun talk state legislative update organization ideology busters , inc distribution usa keywords gun talk lines 208 april 19 , 1993 william douglas noted , powerful sponsor lacking , individual liberty spite glowing opinions resounding constitutional phrases legislative outlined resulted subcommittee , committee , floor action many important victories , however , come coordinating legislators ensure anti gun anti hunting legislation either amended favorably , rejected , never voted quiet victories less impressive protecting fundamental civil liberties guaranteed second amendment u constitution arizona sb , nra supported legislation concerning minors criminal possession firearms passed house 36 18 , currently awaiting action governor arkansas hb , firearms preemption legislation signed governor making forty first state pass preemption preemption passed twice previous sessions vetoed gov bill clinton hb , mandatory storage firearms , amended killed committee colorado sb 42 , storage firearms trigger lock , killed committee sb 104 , prohibiting sale certain semi auto firearms killed committee sb 108 , called colorado handgun violence prevention act , including provision 10 day waiting period , killed committee connecticut substitute bill , imposing 6 tax firearms , ammunition , equipment killed environment committee florida bill require 3 year license cost 150 possess semi automatic firearms second degree felony provision \( 15 years prison \) died committee along numerous anti gun owner bills anti gun legislation passed florida year georgia sb 12 , supposed instant check provision allowing 7 day waiting period , defeated house public safety committee sent interim study committee mandatory storage bill sb 247 defeated 39 15 senate bill passed upper house 52 2 1992 illinois hb 90 , prohibiting sale , possession , manufacture , purchase , possession , carrying certain semi auto firearms , defeated house judiciary ii subcommittee firearms hb 91 , mandatory storage legislation , failed house judiciary subcommittee firearms hb 1550 , makes , point sale check permanent , passed judiciary committee 10 4 2 vote presently calendar third reading house sb 40 , mandatory storage bill , defeated committee sb 265 , imposing handgun excise tax , failed senate committee revenue 's subcommittee tax increases sb 272 , imposing tax persons engaged business selling firearms , failed senate revenue committee 's subcommittee tax increases indiana sb 241 , firearms preemption , passed senate 34 16 , house 77 22 twelve amendments introduced house floor sb 241 among amendments ban certain semi auto firearms , mandatory storage , trigger lock , ban saturday night \( similar 1988 maryland bill \) , handgun rationing \( one handgun per month \) defeated read morning \( 4 20 \) b 241 defeated lvc kansas hb , providing 72 hour waiting period firearms defeated committee hb , presently governor 's desk , hb sb 243 266 relating rights , expected enacted law maine funding department fish 1993 94 budget , restored following severe reductions governor 's proposed budget ld 612 , anti hunting bill included reverse posting 1000 yard safety zones , killed committee maryland sb 6 \( firearms incendiary ammunition \) died committee 8 3 vote , sb 41 \( reckless endangerment firearms sale transfer \) died committee 11 0 vote , sb 126 \( gun control assault weapons \) died committee 9 2 vote , sb 182 \( weapons free school zone \) withdrawn , sb 185 \( weapons school property driver 's license suspension withdrawn , sb 265 \( assault pistols sale , purchase transport \) died committee 8 3 vote , sb 328 \( assault pistols act 1993 \) died committee 8 3 vote , sb 682 \( baltimore city firearms rifles shotguns \) died committee 9 2 vote hb 274 \( pistol revolver dealers licenses compliance laws \) withdrawn , hb 366 \( regulated firearms sales transfer \) died senate floor , hb 374 \( handguns assault weapons advertising sale transfer \) died committee , hb 384 \( handguns assault weapons \) died committee , hb 495 \( assault pistols act 1993 \) died committee 14 9 vote , hb 496 \( gun shows sale , trade , transfer regulated firearms \) died committee 19 6 vote , hb 601 \( firearms handguns assault pistols handgun roster board \) withdrawn , hb 683 \( rifles shotguns registration \) withdrawn , hb 945 \( pistols revolvers private sales transfers required notice \) died committee , hb 1128 prince county weapons free school zone \) withdrawn mississippi hb 141 , closing loophole allowing felons possess firearms , passed houses signed governor bill law mechanism certain felons second amendment liberties nebraska lb 83 lb 225 , mandatory trigger lock bills , killed committee new hampshire h b 363 , providing reciprocity concealed carry licenses passed h b 671 , increasing term license carry loaded handguns passed new mexico sb 762 , imposing 7 day waiting period , defeated senate committee \( 0 5 \) floor senate \( 15 24 \) hb 182 , mandatory storage legislation , killed vote 1 8 committee hb 230 , legislation safeguarding field harassment animal rights extremists , signed law governor march 30 new york seven day waiting period defeated city buffalo ban certain semi autos defeated county tax fee bills imposed guns ammo included 1993 94 budget sb 207 , making pistol licenses provides validity pistol license throughout state , passed senate currently awaiting action assembly committee north dakota hb , granting victims compensation certain circumstances , signed law governor april 8 oregon sb 334 , banning firearms school grounds court buildings , withdrawn result gun owners opposition rhode island hb , mandatory firearms storage legislation , defeated committee vote 8 5 hb 6347 , act prohibiting aliens owning firearm defeated unanimous vote committee hb , excepting nra instructors firearms safety requirement , reported favorably hb , persons attorney general 's permit 7 day waiting period , reported floor vote 11 1 hb , extending term permit carry two years three years , reported floor unanimously utah hb 290 , state 's concealed carry statute , passed house committee sb 32 , creating civil liability called negligent storage firearm , sb 33 creating offense reckless endangerment firearm , killed senate floor virginia b 336 , b 803 , requiring proof state residence obtain virginia driver 's license passed b 804 , increases penalty imposes mandatory minimum sentence straw man purchases multiple firearms passed b 858 , allowing possession sawed rifles shotguns compliance federal law passed b 1054 , making felony first offense carrying concealed firearm without license \( nra opposes law abiding citizens acquire concealed carry license self defense \) , defeated h b 1900 , increasing penalty use firearm committing felony passed h b , requiring proof residence obtain driver 's license passed h b , providing referendum imposition three day waiting period handgun purchases defeated washington sb , calling waiting periods licensing semi automatic firearms , died committee west virginia c r 18 , calls study control transfers handguns assault weapons defeated senate 24 10 wisconsin referendum odds , determined efforts madison area citizens crime paid april 6 referendum banning possession handguns madison , wisconsin , defeated despite opposition ban aired largely firearms owners series public meetings issue common council voted february 17 place referendum ballot , allowing seven weeks campaigning reverse public opinion controversial issue october 1992 poll conducted wisconsin state journal found 57 support 38 opposed , 5 expressing opinion election day , 56 , 000 voters went polls , 51 cast ballots opposition proposal 49 voted madison common council enact ban campaign committee , wisconsin pro gun movement nra ila , relied neighborhood , direct mail radio tv advertising educate voters civil liberties implications raised enforcement ban referendum approved despite surprising defeat , expected madison initiative 's chief proponent , mayor paul , attempt common council enact ordinance banning handguns downloaded gun talk \( 703 719 \) service national rifle association institute legislative action washington , dc 20036 larry cipriani l v cipriani att com
bjones convex com \( brad jones \) subject letter president nntp posting host neptune convex com organization engineering , convex computer corp , richardson , tx , usa x disclaimer message written user convex computer corp opinions expressed user necessarily convex lines 8 kdw icd ab com \( kenneth whitehead \) writes dismissal resignation lloyd , secretary treasury , case n't sent yet , 's bentsen , brad
cis ohio state edu \( matthew dale porter \) subject reasonable civie arms limits organization ohio state university dept computer info science lines 42 nntp posting host python cis ohio state edu article 1993apr19 gnv ifas ufl edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes poster claims asks anti gunners think would reasonable personal firepower ok caliber greater 32 muzzle greater 300 ft lbs combo bullet wt vel action single shot rifles single action revolvers revolvers bearing six rounds incorporating mechanism discourage roy rogers bullets non explosive variety , hps fine specs leave 32 h r magnum powerful allowable civie cartridge handgun rifle use would reasonably effective home intruders , muggers , rabid wolves , even firearm type limitations time , caliber power limit would reduce ultimate lethality hits chances average joe gang huge individuals drunk stoned pcp crystal meth bad attitude armed willing die well , 's zero far less chances getting killed driving car people realize right keep bear n't primarily intended protecting criminals wild \? granted , big part , also need military style weapons fight government come door ten agents come door , would nice able shoot upholding constitution best lot harder puny weapons listed please read federalist papers clarification rkba documents cleared plenty friends mine matt porter cis ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu
gt6511a prism gatech edu \( cochrane , james shapleigh \) subject change name \? \? organization georgia institute technology lines 35 article cmm 0 90 2 thomasp holmenkollen ifi uio thomasp ifi uio \( thomas parsli \) writes 1 make new newsgroup called talk politics guns paranoid talk politics guns they'r take away 2 move postings waco burn \( guess \) 3 stop posting newsgroup glad 're trying save us evil goverment , would mail regular mail let 's say 1000 people \? \? \? \? thomas parsli everybody talked evil arising europe labeled reactionary late 1930 's , could negotiate hitler trust keep end bargain least 's stalin thought guess forgot teach country overrun germans wwii , thomas \? i'm sorry consider outrage government excesses everytime israelis conduct mass operation terrorist group actively killing citizens soldiers , world gets , 's ok us assault 's citizens religous minority accused sexual deviation weapons find real ironic happened day al gore arrived poland recognize sacrifices made warsaw ghetto raised armed assault black clad troops armor support james cochrane danger , doubt , run space gt6511a prism gatech edu circles , scream shout rent
jon atlas mitre org \( j e shum \) subject change name \? \? originator jon atlas nntp posting host atlas mitre org organization mitre corp mclean va lines 33 article cmm 0 90 2 thomasp holmenkollen ifi uio , thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio writes 1 make new newsgroup called talk politics guns paranoid talk politics guns they'r take away 2 move postings waco burn \( guess \) 3 stop posting newsgroup glad 're trying save us evil goverment , would mail regular mail let 's say 1000 people \? \? \? \? signature 's merely computergenerated text waste bandwith bring evil internet thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio group called talk thomas parsli approves \? clinton administration e mail addresses campaign92 org \( mcimail \) provided public service 75300 3115 compuserve com \( compuserve \) jon edward shum \( jon mitre org \) clintonpz aol com \( america online \) clinton administration e mail addresses campaign92 org \( mcimail \) provided public service 75300 3115 compuserve com \( compuserve \) jon edward shum \( jon mitre org \) clintonpz aol com \( america online \)
hrubin pop stat purdue edu \( herman rubin \) subject 's next \? mormons jews \? organization purdue university statistics department lines 18 article 1993apr20 22480 midway uchicago edu thf2 midway uchicago edu writes article 6rf usenet ins cwru edu cj195 cleveland freenet edu \( john w redelfs \) writes big brother rubbed one minority religion waco , next \? mormons jews \? koreshians rubbed neither mormons jews propensity dousing kerosene , i'm particularly concerned \( shall blame jim jones government also \? \) believe still remember masada , jews killed rather captured romans agree davidians , must admire willingness die believed , jews often herman rubin , dept statistics , purdue univ , west lafayette 1399 phone \( 317 \) 494 hrubin snap stat purdue edu \( internet , bitnet \) purdue , pur ee ! snap stat ! hrubin \( uucp \)
roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) subject batf fbi murders almost everyone waco today ! 4 19 nntp posting host chopin udel edu organization university delaware lines 32 article 1993apr20 rti rti org jbs rti rti org writes article c5rpoj ijv news udel edu roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) writes well 40 days come hands national tv get trial deserved instead chose set fire compund hours tanks dropped tear gas third person 's fbi 's line fires set six hours tear gas injected suppose want explain us videotape footage shown national tv last night tank gas injecting tubes pulling injection tubes second story building building begins smoke fire \? 've already corrected mistake earlier thread saw brief news report led since seen detailed summaries show tanks returned late morning , n't bd 's leave gas first introduced much earlier morning \? n't care children \? n't release children weeks ago \? tell joe
wwarf silver ucs indiana edu \( wayne j warf \) subject batf fbi murders almost everyone waco today ! 4 19 nntp posting host silver ucs indiana edu organization indiana university lines 32 article 1993apr20 rti rti org jbs rti rti org writes article c5rpoj ijv news udel edu roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) writes well 40 days come hands national tv get trial deserved instead chose set fire compund hours tanks dropped tear gas third person 's fbi 's line fires set six hours tear gas injected suppose want explain us videotape footage shown national tv last night tank gas injecting tubes pulling injection tubes second story building building begins smoke fire \? tell joe mention story rewritten today two bd 's admitted starting fire , forget 'em , n't exist anyone today , saw someone starting fire aerial surveillance showed starting fires morning 's press conference tomorrow , even excuse may reporter pointed bd brought shouted tanks knocking lanterns started fire curiouser curiouser wayne j warf wwarf ucs indiana edu speak clinton gore cia fbi dea assassinate bomb wod bor atf irs resist nsa christian god satan apocalypse zog nazi socialist communist explosive fundamentalist revolution nsc federal reserve constitution gold fema
jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) subject gun like american express card organization hand held products , inc lines 22 distribution usa nntp posting host dale handheld com article 93109 uicvm uic edu jason kratz kind funny though one picked part sister social worker keeping date gang thing everyone else seemed skim part jason guess means everyone else mistaken \? jim jmd handheld com i'm always rethinking 's never day n't rethought ca n't bill clinton 6 april 93 american , englishman , foreign troop landed country , never would lay arms , never never never ! william pitt , earl chatham 1708 1778 18 nov 1777
hambidge bms com subject gun control reply hambidge bms com organization bristol myers squibb lines 39 article ulowell ulowell edu , jrutledg cs ulowell edu \( john lawrence rutledge \) writes , unconditional , shall infringed infringed defined break ignore terms obligations \( oath , agreement , law , like \) violate go beyond boundaries limits encroach definition implies following form existing agreement laws agreements made advance rights guaranteed constitution considered pre existing agreement exist therefore , law grants rights laws guarantee , protect , infringe rights third new international dictionary english language , unabridged 1986 infringe 1 break destroy b defeat , frustrate c , refute impair , weaken 2 commit breach neglect fulfill obey violate , vi encroach , trespass infringement 1 act infringing breach , violation , 2 encroachment trespass right trespass , stretch imagination get ideas infringement rights \? al standard disclaimer
dbernard clesun central sun com \( dave bernard \) subject 's next \? mormons jews \? organization sun microsystems lines 20 distribution world reply dbernard clesun central sun com nntp posting host clesun central sun com two situations hardly analogous , unless wish make dubious claim us legal system would provide equivalent treatment bd children romans conquered rebels actually , analogy calls branch davidian feeling treatment would along lines military assualt \( instead peacefull effort serve warrant \) weeks os siege , feeling might completely irrational actually , one survivors wanted institute civil rights violation lawsuit treasury dept , would claim batf fbi blame mass insanity without due process , lights , laser beams , multi colored , playing loudly amplified music consisting everything tibetan chant heavy metal , coupled fear , poor nutrition , rampant paranoia , 'd say likely poor nuts made even , n't sleep deprivation , sensory overload , etc , part new age method torture \?
pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization university tennessee , knoxville x newsreader nnr vm 1 3 2 lines 43 article 93109 13404334aej7d cmuvm bitnet 34aej7d cmuvm bitnet writes surprised post makes past censors , goes monday , 19 april , 1993 13 30 edt murder foul ! ! murder ! atf murderers ! butchers ! ! genocidal mass slaughter innocent people , including children ! well , chalk one driving away sympathies looking like paranoid lunatic predicted start , god , sickens see happen hoped wrong hoped still shred america grew , loved , left alive wrong nazis repeat , time survivors ! last heard nine apparently point 've found bodies , except killed initial assault couple months ago cute koresh hit trail maybe bodily assumed heaven would n't make ag reno 's day \? david veal university tennessee division continuing education pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu still remember way laughed pushed elevator shaft sometimes get thinking n't love anymore weird al yankovic
expert cc purdue edu \( todd \) subject batf fbi revenge organization purdue university computing center lines 172 anyone idea size waco \? i'm curious small town may something possibly sure n't take long burn though watching abc took like little 30 minutes burn waco city 100 , 000 people population temporarily raised 102 , 000 people feds , state police officers arrived tell , stayed hotel room 4 miles bd compound around 3 weeks ago never felt paranoid whole life least 100 state police hotel claim water turned , fire engines bring n't hold cut water , surely could turned back quickly n't want scores settle message anybody else clear fuck us one believe everything government tells us true message wanted send wait 51 days \? think message would better sent charging right away waiting 51 days pounding sound , etc bunch dead bd members going able tell side story , story according batf fbi also , mr care rights people clinton , administration approved action \( fbi said approved it' \) fbi said gas masks used bds finite life , close running waited \? well , 9 people supposedly alive tell story far bill clinton concerned n't think pressing matters attend besides small group people texas \? bosnia \? 's problem could n't waited \? waited long something done earlier gov trying say mass suicide past expressed real possibility , decided n't possibility could go raid apparantly feel korash capable going driven convenient time means 1 public media forget become weary already happened many people 2 investigation \( independent otherwise \) whitewash much possibility 3 warrant related documents 4 anybody know incident batf version way government would n't doubt 5 batf given abuses , effective support approval administration clinton said news knew happening hands fbi choose believe media 6 abuses , concern administration 7 precident established feds kill quantity achieve aims especially target rights second amendment , rest bill rights , government declared un nice fellow rocket launchers \( press gov claims \) n't done something \? possible use would religious cult rocket launcher \? also , child abuse covered bill rights \? pleased ping \( sp \) pleased saddam hussein \( sp \) pleased idi amin would pleased stalin would pleased even hitler would pleased self respecting would nod say well done , bill clinton ! ! well , probably lot self respecting us cause i'm sure feel way god bless america land free ! ! ! \( past tense \) well , maybe overreacting see tv typing maybe , maybe lot questions raised incident problem , heard \? govt \( new attorney general , known almost rabid private ownership guns wants ban 'assault everything else \) , saying fbi amazing restraint , falls back official line bd child abuse , going basis , note according liberal elite , giving child spanking regarded child abuse \( seriously gets known , state take child away spank kid \) also saying state \? federal government individual state government \? clinton personally approved operation told appropriate , said ok , somehow , surprised people must know boss charge ! ! ! longer people seems people n't charge long time really n't think government would many things past maintain appropriate response , far raid batf concerned , regarding child abuse \? batf child protective services police yet bd tried charge found guilty gov't people pretty much gone silent terrible illegal guns bd supposedly , stress continued child abuse \( apparantly make seem sort operation , figuring everyone hates child abusers , anything ok use \) occasional references ammunition bds irrelevant illegal ammunition \( yet \) true illegal rocket launcher \? vain hope honest investigation occur thing \? simply whitewashed rug , business usual continue order day new order \? given official title thought police , wonder \? clinton friends way , \( highly likely point \) new order government also guns 1984 going ten years late think going discover paying dearly putting fellow office decades come even die hard supporters serious doubts savior shit , people dont get want right away instant problem clinton office months give chance get something done guy lot shit thrown lap beginning give chance work things little say rome n't built day yes , upset see good far civil individual rights come proposals decisions last month really bill rights nothing quaint curiosity highly doubt bad yet rodney king trial \? two people responsible got axe bad axe falls tho yet seen anybody impeachment \? nope would prefer give bill little four five months solve nations problems pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc 1 207 \( pat myrto \) seattle , wa else fails , try ! uunet ! pilchuck ! rwing ! pat wisdom two things infinite universe human stupidity , sure former albert einstien jason u28037 uicvm cc uic edu
jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization hand held products , inc lines 48 distribution world nntp posting host dale handheld com article menudo uh edu hadcrjam admin uh edu \( miller , jimmy \) writes clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com writes article dartvax dartmouth edu zed dartmouth edu \( ted \) writes well , 's tuesday morning two , \? said yesterday would vanish , mention , desired impression left according radio houston , nine survivors either two allegedly helped start fbi briefing , mention made fire starters custody could one else even talk \? could koresh 's grandmother talk even send taped message \? total isolation \? well , n't total , 100 isolation lawyer snuck first time , \( fbi , etc \) let go back inside several times , including , think , day final assualt mother \? media \? semper fi , jammer jim miller texas university '89 '91 n't speak uh , bad , could use help become one student billing system student billing system power finds way take stand stand , ordinary man rik emmet , gil moore , mike levine triumph jmd handheld com i'm always rethinking 's never day n't rethought ca n't bill clinton 6 april 93 american , englishman , foreign troop landed country , never would lay arms , never never never ! william pitt , earl chatham 1708 1778 18 nov 1777
jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization hand held products , inc lines 44 distribution world nntp posting host dale handheld com article 1993apr20 143255 12711 mcs kent edu mhamilto nimitz mcs kent edu \( lawnmowerman \) writes also someone told david followers ca n't heat stay kitchen ! ! \( pun intended \) tops cold hearted bastard list ! unbelievable ! countries morals sunk low , death innocent people viewed \? flame yah wanna fight , fight ! ! matthew r hamilton mhamilto mcs kent edu k cs physics major ksuvxb kent edu \( lawnmowerman \) kent state university ksuvxb kent edu look future advice quotes sayings jmd handheld com i'm always rethinking 's never day n't rethought ca n't bill clinton 6 april 93 american , englishman , foreign troop landed country , never would lay arms , never never never ! william pitt , earl chatham 1708 1778 18 nov 1777
jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) subject batf fbi murders almost everyone waco today ! 4 19 organization hand held products , inc lines 35 distribution world nntp posting host dale handheld com article 1993apr20 news uit stud cs uit \( paal \) writes article 1r0qsrinnc61 clem handheld com , jim de arras writes mr roby , government sucking heartless bastard humans died yesterday , humans would died fbi taken actions undeniable truth question long \? even fbi done nothing , guess bds would committed suicide , maybe hunger thirst gave choice surrender bds warned beforehand fbi action chance surrender get fair trial matter started fire , bds responsible 80 dying one else , course , opinion differ greatly doubt fbi least shares blame paal 67 102 083 stud cs uit 9100 data til alle jmd handheld com i'm always rethinking 's never day n't rethought ca n't bill clinton 6 april 93 american , englishman , foreign troop landed country , never would lay arms , never never never ! william pitt , earl chatham 1708 1778 18 nov 1777
croaker highlite uucp \( francis ney \) subject cnn sale organization communications research distribution usa lines 10 add voice \( hopefully \) growing multitudes hereby pledge 1000 00 towards purchase cnn , conditions already described also post idea nets access \( rime libernet \) may organize , looking help frank ney emt nra ila goa 'm u e'
dduff col hp com \( dave duff \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization hp colorado springs division lines 1 nntp posting host fajita19 cs itc hp com nut case panics ! ! ! ! jumps gun net getting facts straight ! ! ! !
oldham ces cwru edu \( daniel oldham \) subject blast next time organization computer engineering science , case western reserve university lines 21 distribution usa nntp posting host king ces cwru edu happened waco fault batf would proper equipment personal could captured compound initial assault none would happened batf needs people , better weapons armored transports meet hostile fire able use force instead retreating stand going job right batf protect us must proper equipment people job wod increased crime streets batf needed ever blast away good fokes price pay law order country look good people died wars protect great country arms build waco needed hit compound mega fire power could gone blasting killed women kids would better letting burn death 51 days later
msuvx2 memst edu subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! distribution world organization memphis state university lines 49 article 93109 13404334aej7d cmuvm bitnet , 34aej7d cmuvm bitnet writes cnn reporting write atf ignited buildings branch dividian ranch near waco , tx lies atf say holes made walls 'non lethal' tear gas pumped minutes started whole thing went buildings aflame one escaped think obvious atf used armored flame thrower vehicles pump unlit napalm , let wood stove inside ignite well , actually , davidians \( koreshians \? \) started fire , last heard \( around 15 00 est \) eight people ran surrounding compound captured two admitted setting fire n't buy napalm theory \( although would made great commercial sig \) hell would wood stove burning warm day \? flame throwers use liquid petroleum , napalm gel dispute theory , diluted cs gas inserted around 06 00 understood correctly place n't start burning around 10 00 11 00 murder ! atf murderers ! butchers ! ! genocidal mass slaughter innocent people , including children ! predicted start , god , sickens see happen hoped wrong hoped still shred america grew , loved , left alive wrong nazis calm kid vernon \( koresh 's real name \) said would leave compound alive inhabitants thereof accepted fact may well kill repeat , time survivors ! least eight survivors caller rush limbaugh today suggested rest may even hiding underground bunkers 's wild idea considering weaponry resolve god help us please crosspost let get away slaughter children ! w k gorman american tears sheesh ! get n't heard \( read \) ranting since burned ended 50 days ago i'm glad tax dollars finally stopped working pay bunch guys stand around give press conferences get back important things , like catching smugglers troy napalm sticks kids
betz gozer idbsu edu \( andrew betz \) subject clinton joins list genocidal socialist leaders nntp posting host gozer organization sigsauer fan club lines 13 article btr btr com michaelh public btr com \( michael hahn michaelh btr com \) writes pol pot 100 , killed \? 've read estimates pol pot killed somewhere neighborhood 2 million drew betz gozer idbsu edu brought terminal free state idaho outlaw rights , outlaws rights spook fodder fema , nsa , clinton , gore , insurrection , nsc , semtex , neptunium , terrorist , cia , mi5 , mi6 , kgb , deuterium
julie eddie jpl nasa gov \( julie kangas \) subject blast next time nntp posting host eddie jpl nasa gov organization jet propulsion laboratory , pasadena , ca distribution usa lines 32 article 1r19l9 7dv usenet ins cwru edu oldham ces cwru edu \( daniel oldham \) writes happened waco fault batf would proper equipment personal could captured compound initial assault none would happened batf needs people , better weapons armored transports meet hostile fire able use force instead retreating stand going job right batf protect us must proper equipment people job wod increased crime streets batf needed ever blast away good fokes price pay law order country look good people died wars protect great country arms build waco needed hit compound mega fire power could gone blasting killed women kids would better letting burn death 51 days later well , 's said people get government deserve n't worry , 'll get 'll sleep much better everyone thoughts government list rounded executed julie disclaimer opinions belong cat one else
gt6511a prism gatech edu \( cochrane , james shapleigh \) subject guns backcountry \? thanks organization georgia institute technology lines 48 article netnews upenn edu cis upenn edu \( \) writes article 1993apr16 csd newshost stanford edu , andy sail stanford edu \( andy freeman \) writes article 1993apr16 midway uchicago edu uchicago edu \( kevin geraghty \) writes wrong whole guns protection mindset , ignores \? 're threat , 're affected aha 's part makes nervous gets decide threat \? based appearance \? would someone feel threatened actions determine whether someone presents threat n't carry gun much people , cause tend fade , due several encounters formerly domestic dogs critters ai n't scared folks , get aggressive staying saw someone sitting cleaning gun softly backed away , another 5 miles get 'll freely admit i'm afraid guns i'm afraid people bring backcountry 'd count fear guns somebody sense keep weapons maintained n't likely present threat army taught clean weapons daily , since usually need , regardless whether 've used 'd amazed sweaty holster get , much trail dust get guess 'd scared former explorer post seems advisors national guard special forces , considered heresy woods without weapon course , usually would n't notice 'em \) tended avoid public scrutiny course , may way solve problem carry gun display , one probably wo n't see , hiding woods 1 2 \) 9mm goes hip holster , mixed magazine \( hold lotsa stuff \) , , knives , , easy notice , chance decide visible prefer , since walking quietly away active areas increases number non human type critters see james james cochrane danger , doubt , run space gt6511a prism gatech edu circles , scream shout rent
william vos stratus com subject blast next time organization stratus computer , marlboro lines 29 distribution usa nntp posting host enet mfg stratus com deleted sounds twisted wod increased crime streets batf needed ever blast away good fokes price pay law order country look good people died wars protect great country flame thrower well n't want tax dollars going kind philosophy maybe good folks talking people like might inclined accept batf anyway \? n't bureau militant , paranoid , freedom killers like people like dangerous alcohol , tobacco firearms arms build waco needed hit compound mega fire power could gone blasting killed women kids would better letting burn death 51 days later maybe whole city , mean , 's 100 , 000 good souls anyway \? get real , sound like racist guess life n't precious , realize 24 children killed ! ! ! never get fall love , wo n't see another sunrise , prom , first date , football , baseball nothing n't people think first let everyone know narrow flame thrower
betz gozer idbsu edu \( andrew betz \) subject batf fbi murders almost everyone waco today ! 4 19 nntp posting host gozer organization sigsauer fan club lines 31 article c5rynw iz8 news udel edu roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) writes suppose fbi also prevented coming hands national tv cameras watch watch \? two miles away \? far enough away whatever really happenned must explained vengeful filter humiliated agency said \( quote ! \) enough enough scenario simplest plausible generally believe conspiracy theories involve complicated unlikely scenarios fbi sent letters martin luther king 's wife insinuating mlk affair ! , please tell us exactly much trust supposedly benevolent government batf means devoid fault handling affair suggest may intentionally started fire ludicrous suspect plenty camerapeople willing risk small arms fire get good footage people told get hell camera range \? drew betz gozer idbsu edu brought terminal free state idaho outlaw rights , outlaws rights spook fodder fema , nsa , clinton , gore , insurrection , nsc , semtex , neptunium , terrorist , cia , mi5 , mi6 , kgb , deuterium
mfrhein wpi wpi edu \( michael frederick rhein \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization worcester polytechnic institute lines 74 nntp posting host wpi wpi edu article 93109 13404334aej7d cmuvm bitnet 34aej7d cmuvm bitnet writes surprised post makes past censors , goes monday , 19 april , 1993 13 30 edt murder foul ! ! cnn reporting write atf ignited watched cnn report never heard report atf started fire speculate type cs gas might started fire buildings branch dividian ranch near waco , tx lies atf say holes made walls 'non lethal' tear gas pumped minutes started whole thing went understanding cnn report 6 hours started buildings aflame one escaped think obvious atf used armored flame thrower vehicles pump unlit track vehicle saw vicinity building fire first noticed looked like armored recovery vehicle \( type used tow tanks battle fields \) armored flame thrower vehicle napalm , let wood stove inside ignite someone else pointed , would stove use warm day texas seems would poor hope wood stove ignite napalm stove would probably use doubt would taken 6 hours ignite murder ! atf murderers ! butchers ! ! genocidal mass slaughter innocent people , including children ! predicted start , god , sickens see happen hoped wrong hoped still shred america grew , loved , left alive wrong nazis right clinton office \( sorry could n't resist , please flames \) \) repeat , time survivors ! god help us please crosspost let get away slaughter children ! w k gorman american tears short mr gorman \( assuming mr title n't think woman would stupid enough make post \) n't know episode cnn watching obviously one watching tears hearing along eye sight please excuse words product arkansas education system slick willie double bubba ticket improved great state \( taking 49th nation 1980 allowing drop , n't know , bringing back either 49th 1990 sorry ca n't rember source numbers found \) michael f rhein
gt6511a prism gatech edu \( cochrane , james shapleigh \) subject much infinite patience organization georgia institute technology lines 32 article 1993apr19 jupiter sun csd unb ca j979 jupiter sun csd unb ca \( fuller \) writes much infinite patience find hard swallow prolonged exposure massive amounts said bomb dropped move would n't start fire , either real kicker , though , stated justification government 's sudden loss patience would n't able rotate teams outcome could foreseen mile \( two \) away , reno n't even malcolm fuller , surveying engineering , university new brunswick really good part point 're negotiating , fbi spokesman bob ricks said news briefing half hour fire began 're saying , come hands matter ' criminal much saying wo n't force issue anybody wh information number \? figure ol' bill could use lesson responsible unit troops fail want ask enjoys responsible violating constitutional rights group , resulting deaths hundred , plus four federal agents james james cochrane danger , doubt , run space gt6511a prism gatech edu circles , scream shout rent
v111qheg ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( p vasilion \) subject 's next \? mormons jews \? organization university buffalo lines 24 news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host ubvmsb cc buffalo edu article 1993apr20 22480 midway uchicago edu , thf2 midway uchicago edu writes article 6rf usenet ins cwru edu cj195 cleveland freenet edu \( john w redelfs \) writes big brother rubbed one minority religion waco , next \? mormons jews \? koreshians rubbed neither mormons jews propensity dousing kerosene , i'm particularly concerned \( shall blame jim jones government also \? \) thankful batf standoff least got kids cult committed mass suicide dont believe branch davidians committed suicide one minute would put past fbi incendiary grenades feed story n't ever ever trust wonderful government tells janet reno fbi murder hundred people hands hope sleep night p vasilion , suny buffalo std disclaimers cult haters happy \? hope next
hambidge bms com subject blast next time reply hambidge bms com organization bristol myers squibb distribution usa lines 31 article 1r19l9 7dv usenet ins cwru edu , oldham ces cwru edu \( daniel oldham \) writes happened waco fault batf would proper equipment personal could captured compound initial assault none would happened batf needs people , better weapons armored transports meet hostile fire able use force instead retreating stand going job right batf protect us must proper equipment people job wod increased crime streets batf needed ever blast away good fokes price pay law order country look good people died wars protect great country arms build waco needed hit compound mega fire power could gone blasting killed women kids would better letting burn death 51 days later forget put sarcasm flag \? al standard disclaimer
donb netcom com \( baldwin \) subject batf fbi revenge organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 31 article coy boi hp com dianem boi hp com \( diane mathews \) writes ahem see war drugs , sponsored bush reagan administrations precedent well set federal agencies step people consider rights wo n't make excuses anyone , damage done clinton even entered race '92 mention last year 's weaver affair anyway , 's see waco affair 'd interested peoples' interpretations 1 koresh people basically minding business 2 weapons violations may committed would n't disapproved prosecuting violations however , think batf criminal starting negotiations military style assault firing house children 3 n't see could n't leave token guard place wait bds n't approve tear gas approach , caused fire started , think fbi agent responsible spend 10 20 years jail 4 however , koresh 's response tear gas kill everyone , hold largely responsible deaths
shaffer achilles anl gov \( michael shaffer \) subject batf fbi revenge organization argonne national laboratory lines 29 hmmm n't heard rockets atf must escalating tall tails anyway rocket launchers \( press gov claims \) n't done something \? done something \? davidians attacked even threatened anyone possible use would religious cult rocket launcher \? governments right tell others legitimate right also , child abuse covered bill rights \? child abuse within jurisdiction department treasury \? attacking citizens without due process strength unsubstantiated rumors violation law fall jurisdiction pretty serious breech rights shit , people dont get want right away instant problem clinton office months give chance get something done guy lot shit thrown lap beginning give chance work things little say rome n't built day gets done really trouble ! mike
gt6511a prism gatech edu \( cochrane , james shapleigh \) subject 's next \? mormons jews \? organization georgia institute technology lines 20 hmm person remembers masada \? n't first time group committed suicide avoid persecution capture seem miss point raid never happened first place ! ! ! find fbi actions damn reminiscent warsaw ghetto fitting al gore poland events 50th remove references dates two raids government troops wearing black uniforms , carrying automatic weapons , backed armored vehicles , religious minorities claim practicing sexually deviant behavior weapons damn similar james ps advocating bd 's , find whole situation damn troubling james cochrane danger , doubt , run space gt6511a prism gatech edu circles , scream shout rent
gs26 prism gatech edu \( glenn r stone \) subject batf fbi revenge keywords batf fbi korash child abuse guns murder control reply glenns eas gatech edu organization group w bench lines 17 rwing uucp pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) writes anybody impeachment \? yeah , hillary 's buddy janet say 're responsible want desk yesterday also want thier butts federal civil rights violations something carries life prison penalty oh , 'll contribute 20 arlen specter 's presidential campaign launch senate investigation glenn r stone \( glenns eas gatech edu \) america distress \( flag upside sos \) save republic longer exists
starr genie slhs udel edu \( tim starr \) subject friends like l neil smith organization udel school life health sciences lines 28 article undergrad math uwaterloo ca papresco undergrad math uwaterloo ca \( paul prescod \) writes article 1993apr10 sco com allanh sco com \( allan j heim \) writes look , figure reliable means keeping guns away bad people , interfering good people , think 'd problem , methods 're using n't trick n't manufacture n't sell n't import japan required near total isolation rest world 2 centuries guns get , far fewer , far less people die hunting weapons could allowed , course , long big , bulky , require reloading shots \( many times shoot animal , anyways one assumes moving ! \) hunting weapons great send money else 'll pick 2 miles away tim starr renaissance ! assistant editor freedom network news , newsletter , international society individual liberty , 1800 market st , san francisco , ca \( 415 \) 864 fax \( 415 \) 864 2711 compuserve com think universally , act starr genie slhs udel edu
starr genie slhs udel edu \( tim starr \) subject ban firearms ! organization udel school life health sciences lines 29 article pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) writes article undergrad math uwaterloo ca papresco undergrad math uwaterloo ca \( paul prescod \) writes article hydra gatech edu gt6511a prism gatech edu \( cochrane , james \) writes 2 guns banned , bunch showed south florida , would easier trace notice small ripple huge wave american gun teach courses rude canada \? n't canadian culture handed largely united empire fled american revolution tend , government loving attitude towards authority paul prescod right line elitist bigotry prejudice canadian friends hate fellow citizens sort canuck irrational horror american democratic armed mobs tim starr renaissance ! assistant editor freedom network news , newsletter , international society individual liberty , 1800 market st , san francisco , ca \( 415 \) 864 fax \( 415 \) 864 2711 compuserve com think universally , act starr genie slhs udel edu
starr genie slhs udel edu \( tim starr \) subject ban firearms ! organization udel school life health sciences lines 19 article undergrad math uwaterloo ca papresco undergrad math uwaterloo ca \( paul prescod \) writes drugs banned , please tell supply dry \? drugs easier manufacture , easier smuggle , easier hide comparison , sir , ignorant fool knows nothing either drug business gun business tim starr renaissance ! assistant editor freedom network news , newsletter , international society individual liberty , 1800 market st , san francisco , ca \( 415 \) 864 fax \( 415 \) 864 2711 compuserve com think universally , act starr genie slhs udel edu
cathy lance colostate edu \( cathy smith \) subject weird science l neil smith distribution usa nntp posting host blanca lance colostate edu organization colorado state university , fort collins , co 80523 lines 116 posted cathy smith l neil smith weird science everyone knows tell politician lying lips move may equally obvious politicians politicians phrase political science subject one interpretation years ago , heard scientists worried new ice age might coming , later nuclear winter smoke dust thrown atmosphere full scale international possibility something like may even killed dinosaurs n't hear actual data supported , real world events \( burning kuwaiti oil fields \) tended discredit , mostly propaganda meant weaken values made america successful culture history , dinosaurs probably died something like plague continents drifted together , exposing new miss lot like , unless listen closely prince william sound , site famous oil spill , mount st helen 's n't supposed recover respective disasters least 100 years turned true , although 'd never know watching network nightly news cnn n't fit agenda inform us earth vast , nature could ever , media n't entirely blame ignorant science everything , trust scientists inscrutable trouble today 's scientists agendas nobody government , scientific , going offer grants investigator states truthfully respectable evidence global warming money power bureaucrats politicians lie mass transit , hate automobile blamed major cause mythical crisis source privacy freedom find intolerable appears true acid rain , deliberate hoax cooked environmental protection agency \( hates private industrial capitalism almost much car \) real scientists trickery depended specialists different fields talking much list goes , always common , thread ozone depletion , evidence even suspect contradictory acid rain global warming , last , desperate attempt private capitalism era state central planning command economy failed find final , leg decades anti nuclear , resting foundations myth panic mongering , failed erase fact nuclear power safest , cleanest , efficient source energy known mankind point , greater amount energy available individual society , individual society become honest studies effects individual gun ownership self defense crime conducted investigators began ideological opponents concepts , show massive reductions latter result former suppressed , recently california state government media n't say recent epa discoveries effect secondhand smoking , although harm non smokers may detected , less \( order two magnitude \) associated frying bacon couple times week keeping pet bird 's enough make wonder whether ever anything claim smoking causes cancer , course , real threat represented politically correct science world dangerous place would nice know hazards 've never believed smoking healthy practice , , given lack credibility part today 's science , decide \? nicotine highly addictive , much attest experience yet stress quitting may continue n't way tell , thanks corrupting influence government money scientific establishment two centuries ago , founding fathers spared us certain every nation world subject one time another , creating legal barrier politics religion time short sighted individual group tried lower barrier \( recently issue abortion \) , blood real human blood , hot smoking street wound shed real human blood shed scientific issues , people 's lives ruined loss , agencies like epa , livelihood , property may taken lifetime accumulate , diseases caused toxins associated burning fossil fuels electrical power , thanks bans things like , die effects obesity need , hope survive civilization two centuries , another barrier , constitutional separation state science including medicine knowledge valuable real science wo n't languish lack funding money simply come contributors unwilling pay lies , everyone benefit l neil smith author probability broach , crystal empire , henry martyn , \( forthcoming \) lever action bbs \( 303 \) 493 6674 , fidonet 1 306 31 4 libertarian second amendment caucus nra life member opinions , course ,
brians atlastele com \( brian sheets \) subject constitutionality 18 u c 922 \( \) organization atlas telecom inc distribution usa lines 40 article transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) writes article 1993apr15 atlastele com , brians atlastele com \( brian sheets \) writes rights federal constitution , n't understand statute like 922 enforced individual someone tell government tell cannot possess passing law make law sorry , really ca n't figure 're trying say , guess really asking , like , government , tell cannot possess \? would seem act possessing machine gun less criminal , definition , act possessing television set also would seem would better pass laws say , harm kill someone machine gun television set would specific penalties everyone knows laws goes court sorry , close exactly bound obey law , courts bound enforce 16 jur 2d , sec 177 late 2d , sec 256 brian sheets truck \? ! truck \? support engineer `o o' atlas telecom inc \( \) raiders lost ark brians atlastele com u
yoony aix rpi edu \( young hoon yoon \) subject boston gun buy back nntp posting host aix rpi edu lines 28 ron miller wrote ask question authorities sponsors buyback programs whether check stolen weapons answer , 's total amnesty \( good point registration schemes used harassment deleted \) would also like point receiving stolen property different pawn shop owner thing myron petro nra , y'all opinions included post sole responsibility protected first amendment second amendment amnesty concern , pay cash rather check see gun turned stolen way gun turns stolen , even wanted prosecute , n't know prosecute since concern \( hci like \) people seems total guns \( legal illegal \) , bother check stolen property knew rightful owner , would return gun hence contrary intent ban guns
donb netcom com \( baldwin \) subject ax atf organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 14 article cronkite central sun com dbernard clesun central sun com writes even capital offense , warrant even arrest warrant , search warrant words , evidence illegal arms , enough suggestion get judge sign license search illegal evidence 's hard know believe however , letter received batf , response one sent bentsen , said search warrant arrest warrant
whughes lonestar utsa edu \( william w hughes \) subject batf fbi revenge keywords batf fbi korash child abuse guns murder control nntp posting host lonestar utsa edu organization university texas san antonio lines 20 article rwing uucp pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) writes sick , dismayed , discouraged ashamed administration anybody impeachment \? already called senators , legislators governor demanding warrants unsealed , involved atrocity \( including president , attorney general governor \) suspended pending investigation seriously doubt , however , anything ever done welcome amerika ! remember waco ! government decide murder next \? maybe \? opinions mine n't care blame university state
jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization hand held products , inc lines 46 distribution world nntp posting host dale handheld com article hp col col hp com dduff col hp com \( dave duff \) writes nut case panics ! ! ! ! jumps gun net getting facts straight ! ! ! ! really n't understand ! watched satellite network feeds perhaps 90 people died eyes , two huey 's fanned flames , fbi stopped gate something wrong scene perhaps 'd watched rambo movies , might 've pain fellow humans dying thank god still feel i'm sorry n't think got deserved really believe \? even koresh sadistic mad man said , others deserve fate \? , fact , mad , n't even reason believe duped followers , therefore innocent , brainwashed , victims \? justifies death \? , clear deaths would occured batf fucked initially , fbi got pushed edge 's buy latest version story hook , line , believed along could let live , embarrassment batf fbi would 've severe remember , suspicion tax evasion warrant witnesses , except fbi information filtered fbi allow one remote controlled pool camera installed near building , press could 've done job , would 've able back fbi 's story close video , risk press unless want public see something complete lack source information fbi really causes concern sick stomach , getting government apologists jmd handheld com i'm always rethinking 's never day n't rethought ca n't bill clinton 6 april 93 american , englishman , foreign troop landed country , never would lay arms , never never never ! william pitt , earl chatham 1708 1778 18 nov 1777
zed dartmouth edu \( ted \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! x posted internews 1 dartmouth edu organization , hanover , nh lines 49 article 93109 13404334aej7d cmuvm bitnet 34aej7d cmuvm bitnet writes surprised post makes past censors , goes monday , 19 april , 1993 13 30 edt murder foul ! ! cnn reporting write atf ignited buildings branch dividian ranch near waco , tx lies atf say holes made walls 'non lethal' tear gas pumped minutes started whole thing went buildings aflame one escaped think obvious atf used armored flame thrower vehicles pump unlit napalm , let wood stove inside ignite murder ! atf murderers ! butchers ! ! genocidal mass slaughter innocent people , including children ! predicted start , god , sickens see happen hoped wrong hoped still shred america grew , loved , left alive wrong nazis repeat , time survivors ! god help us please crosspost let get away slaughter children ! w k gorman american tears latest news saw two eight known survivors \( survivors ! ! ! put caps \) said started fire wo n't go things wacko waco ted zed dartmouth edu secret message
k hprnd rose hp com \( steve kao \) subject blast next time organization hewlett packard roseville site lines 16 distribution usa nntp posting host hprnd rose hp com x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 8 daniel oldham \( oldham ces cwru edu \) wrote batf needs people , better weapons armored transports arms build waco needed hit compound mega fire power could gone blasting killed women kids would better letting burn death 51 days later joke \? legal way serve search warrant knock door tossing grenade serve search warrant violates us constitution hence , illegal bd legal search warrants past understand batf used illegal means serve search warrant last february steve kao
gs26 prism gatech edu \( glenn r stone \) subject reply ny times editorial dear member nra reply glenns eas gatech edu organization group w bench lines 32 1993apr20 husc3 harvard edu kim39 scws8 harvard edu \( john kim \) writes legal gun owner , must disagree even n't see eye eye n r particular issue , national group effectively fought rights target shoot , hunt , protect dangerous criminals one time ai n't duck hunting ai n't lone lonely streets 's defending rights government , seen fit ignore history attempt take us succeed n't something 's think nra bunch weenies , forgotten fundamental fact pardon shouting , seem whole helluva lot people condition white , fat , dumb , happy , sucking glass 're worth wake smell , gang , 're shooting us , 's high time shot back , least keyboards two glenn r stone \( glenns eas gatech edu \) fly flags half staff upside , mourn protest death bor
veal utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) subject ama support brady bill lines 27 organization university tennessee division continuing education article tamsun tamu edu dlb5404 tamuts tamu edu \( daryl biberdorf \) writes following sent friend mine \( med student \) originally appeared medical discussion list gun control ama expressed support 414 h r 1025 \( brady handgun violence prevention act \) citing strong support brady bill past , ama termed particularly alarming violence associated , stemming , widespread easy availability use firearms ama proceeded comment recognize waiting period 5 business days handgun purchase address difficult problems made violence prevalent society , believe beginning save lives physicians first hand witnesses horrendous cost human life firearm violence reasonable waiting period purchase handgun protection american people deserve \( letters senator howard metzenbaum representative charles e schumer march 11 , 1993 \) wonder ama exact listing lives saved tennessee , california , waiting period states david veal univ tenn div cont education info services group pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu still remember way laughed , day pushed elevator shaft i'm beginning think n't love anymore weird al
chiu io nosc mil \( francis chiu \) subject blast next time organization san diego state university , college sciences lines 39 distribution usa nntp posting host io nosc mil x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl7 daniel oldham \( oldham ces cwru edu \) wrote happened waco fault batf would proper equipment personal could captured compound initial assault none would happened initial assault compound \( like wooden farm house burned ground like \) \? regardless started caused fire , none would happened atf honestly justify initial assault handled properly ! question authority ! snip wod increased crime streets batf needed ever blast away good fokes price pay law order country look good people died wars protect great country arms build waco needed hit compound show instead repeating fbi atf told mega fire power could gone blasting killed women kids would better letting burn death 51 days later i'm sure wo n't mind atf dea raid house someday bogus informant tip killed wounded family accidentally raid , 's fair price pay law order country , right \? answer question honestly making anymore ignorant statements ! even disturbing control government agencies citizens allow irresponsible f chiu
gs26 prism gatech edu \( glenn r stone \) subject change name \? \? reply glenns eas gatech edu organization group w bench lines 15 cmm 0 90 2 thomasp holmenkollen ifi uio thomasp ifi uio \( thomas parsli \) writes 1 make new newsgroup called talk politics guns paranoid talk politics guns they'r take away 2 move postings waco burn \( guess \) censored norway think 's telling us run place \? wanna know somebody please guess norway survived third reich \? give hint , n't passive resistance way glenn r stone \( glenns eas gatech edu \) asbestos
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject riddle organization stratus computer , inc lines 19 distribution usa nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article 1993apr20 050550 4660 jupiter sun csd unb ca , j979 jupiter sun csd unb ca \( fuller \) writes yet , fbi mouthpiece afternoon 's press conference characterized quantity cs gas pumped building massive , speculated hours exposure davidian gas masks would become useless sound harmful \? hm previous poster argued fact bd 's rush escape burning building indicated , government actions , started fire hand , wonder , face full massive amounts cs , would able escape burning tinder box like ranch house assuming best efforts cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject waco , \( masada \) organization stratus computer , inc lines 20 distribution world nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article usenet ucs indiana edu , wwarf silver ucs indiana edu \( wayne j warf \) writes ca n't see people standing calmly around burned death sorry ca n't see choosing death horrible story n't wash 'll take convincing get believe fbi said today koresh earlier intended strap explosives , come fbi agents detonate , lost nerve lost nerve quick , clean death roasted alive \? sorry , n't believe , even nutty ted last night , ubiquitous australian woman claimed koresh trained women \( years ago \) commit suicide swallowing cyanide putting gun mouth cyanide hand , choose roast \? many unanswered questions cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
gs26 prism gatech edu \( glenn r stone \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! reply glenns eas gatech edu organization group w bench lines 22 93109 13404334aej7d cmuvm bitnet 34aej7d cmuvm bitnet writes surprised post makes past censors , goes , made predicted start , god , sickens see happen hoped wrong hoped still shred america grew , loved , left alive wrong nazis still guns evil grin hey , gang , 's duck hunting , dark alleys , 's black clad , booted troops storming houses violating civil rights color law ready defend constitution \? glenn r stone \( glenns eas gatech edu \)
roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) subject blast next time nntp posting host chopin udel edu organization university delaware distribution usa lines 9 article 1r19l9 7dv usenet ins cwru edu oldham ces cwru edu \( daniel oldham \) writes flame bait , pure simple
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject rewording second amendment \( ideas \) organization stratus computer , inc lines 40 distribution world nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article 1993apr20 ousrvr oulu fi , dfo vttoulu tko vtt fi \( foxvog douglas \) writes article transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) writes article ulowell ulowell edu , jrutledg cs ulowell edu \( john lawrence rutledge \) writes massive destructive power many modern weapons , makes cost accidental usage weapons great weapons mass destruction need control government individual access would result needless deaths millions makes right people keep bear many modern weapons non existant thanks stating 're coming needless say , disagree every count believe individuals right weapons mass destruction \? find hard believe would support neighbor 's right keep nuclear weapons , biological weapons , nerve gas property cannot even agree keeping weapons mass destruction hands individuals , hope us \? n't sign blank checks doug foxvog says weapons mass destruction , means cbw nukes sarah brady says weapons mass destruction means street sweeper shotguns semi automatic sks rifles john lawrence rutledge says weapons mass destruction , immediately follows us thousands people killed year handguns , number easily reduced putting reasonable restrictions rutledge mean term \? cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
kde boi hp com \( keith emmen \) subject cnn sale distribution usa organization hewlett packard boise , idaho x newsreader tin 1 1scd1 pl4 lines 5 anyone keeping list potential contributors , put 1000 00 conditions keith emmen kde boi hp com
roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) subject batf fbi murders almost everyone waco today ! 4 19 nntp posting host chopin udel edu organization university delaware lines 50 article 1993apr20 163730 16128 guinness idbsu edu betz gozer idbsu edu \( andrew betz \) writes article c5rynw iz8 news udel edu roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) writes suppose fbi also prevented coming hands national tv cameras watch watch \? two miles away \? far enough away whatever really happenned must explained vengeful filter humiliated agency said \( quote ! \) enough enough please tell think would happened people come hands several weeks ago scenario simplest plausible generally believe conspiracy theories involve complicated unlikely scenarios fbi sent letters martin luther king 's wife insinuating mlk affair ! , please tell us exactly much trust supposedly benevolent government someone would release children compound e , david koresh vernon howell jesus christ saw lengthy excerpts australian documentary made 1992 clearly showed cult pleased batf handling affair think bungled badly start n't think responsible fire , started two different places batf means devoid fault handling affair suggest may intentionally started fire ludicrous suspect plenty camerapeople willing risk small arms fire get good footage people told get hell camera range \? drew betz gozer idbsu edu brought terminal free state idaho outlaw rights , outlaws rights spook fodder fema , nsa , clinton , gore , insurrection , nsc , semtex , neptunium , terrorist , cia , mi5 , mi6 , kgb , deuterium
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hadcrjam admin uh edu \( miller , jimmy \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization university houston administrative computing lines 43 distribution world nntp posting host uhad2 admin uh edu x news reader vms news 1 24 reply jmd cube handheld com 's message 20 apr 1993 16 26 47 gmt clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com writes article menudo uh edu hadcrjam admin uh edu \( miller , jimmy \) writes clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com writes according radio houston , nine survivors either including two allegedly helped start fires fbi briefing , mention made fire starters custody one \? one yesterday , another \? day , catch imo , 90 conspiracy charges easily explained simple fact days instantaneous news transmission , kinds stuff gets said people really n't know hell 's going story changes facts suddenly cries whitewash ! start naturally , everybody wants cover ass total isolation \? well , n't total , 100 isolation lawyer snuck first time , \( fbi , etc \) let go back inside several times , , think , day final assualt mother \? media \? tend take issue absolute statements ob wrong face tend , inform isolation significant , total semper fi , jammer jim miller texas university '89 '91 n't speak uh , bad , could use help become one student billing system student billing system power finds way take stand stand , ordinary man rik emmet , gil moore , mike levine triumph
jgd dixie com \( john de armond \) subject fbi murders \( atf burns dividian \) organization dixie communications public access mouth south lines 87 jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) writes believed along could let live , embarrassment batf fbi would 've severe remember , suspicion tax evasion warrant witnesses , except fbi information filtered fbi allow one remote controlled pool camera installed near building , press could 've done job , would 've able back fbi 's story close video , risk press unless want public see something complete lack source information fbi really causes concern sick stomach , getting government apologists well put , jim concerned media 's complicity growing coverup imagine media outrage , lawsuits , investigations would emit government kept media away story \? particularly republican administration behind 's going \? let 's look beyond initial blunder examine happened next i'm student human , particularly area psy ops 've found techniques useful business negotiations puts firmly amateur ranks amateur knows first thing sizing opponent psychological profile bet ass fbi professionally done profiles koresh koresh 's behavior predictable typical people move away civilization willing fight death preserve isolation would also typical , given koresh 's religious orientation , individual interpret government assault apocalypse suicide acceptable alternative consumed apocalypse imho , fbi knew decided 50 days concentrated psy ops initiate apocalypse believe chose course action designed specifically push koresh edge publicly appearing acting reasonably knew koresh considered tanks fire mentioned book revelations knew sending tanks , oops , combat engineering vehicles , perform gas \( love \) would push edge look supporting evidence koresh 's attorney mentioned tv earlier today \( 4 20 \) one koresh 's major concern biblical role tanks stationed around compound fbi \( reno larry king last night news conference morning \) claimed listening devices compound true knew actions driving brink knew pushing davidians toward mass suicide rational reasonable agency interested killing people would , first sign preparations suicide , pulled completely back would gotten rid armor instead continued gas insertion right point flames appeared image remain mind tank back forth front burning compound , kill let 's step back assess thing could ended without bloodshed technique would required law enforcement agency interested constitutionally enforcing law preservation life instead achieving military victory way koresh simply announced pull back , abandoned assault , torn concertina wire removed armor , maintained covert surveillance compound exploited ego flush exploiting ego would simple simple invite two talk shows come tv tell whipped us government would something could resisted could left compound simple , clean safe would required fbi execute tactical retreat would deprived revenge sought , totally question without floating around reno show world big balls yesterday sad , sad day american system sick soul john john de armond , wd4oqc interested high performance mobility \? performance engineering magazine \( tm \) interested high tech computers \? marietta , ga send ur snail mail address jgd dixie com perform dixie com free sample mag lee harvey oswald ya need ya \?
auerbach batman bmd trw com subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! lines 23 article 1r19tp 5em bigboote wpi edu , mfrhein wpi wpi edu \( michael frederick rhein \) writes article 93109 13404334aej7d cmuvm bitnet 34aej7d cmuvm bitnet writes surprised post makes past censors , goes short mr gorman \( assuming mr title n't think woman would stupid enough make post \) n't know episode cnn sexist remark ! come , mike , ever possessed make un pc remark \? hope women reading incensed remember , woman good men ! ! ! ! women stand right stupid men fact , insist every even stupid men ! 've got right , use ! hey , 's slow afternoon really n't want get back report \) btw mega smileys humor impaired karl
roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) subject batf fbi murders almost everyone waco today ! 4 19 nntp posting host chopin udel edu organization university delaware lines 51 article 1r0qsrinnc61 clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) writes article c5s0ds j54 news udel edu roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) writes agree deserved trial 40 days come get trial chose keep children stay inside chose stay inside even tear gassed find actions rational even noriega smart enough give go trial deserved mr roby , government sucking heartless bastard unworthy comment humans died yesterday , humans would died fbi taken actions undeniable truth cried would died come hands empty undeniable truth heart bleeds much children never released given 51 days ample opportunities heart also bleeds people blinded religious devotion common sense leave compound tanks came started dropping tear gas early morning seem say got deserved think however , set fire \( started one place spread quickly \) , got wanted put motion see batf going investigated justice dept likely arlen spectre congress good bungled affair start jim jmd handheld com i'm always rethinking 's never day n't rethought ca n't bill clinton 6 april 93 american , englishman , foreign troop landed country , never would lay arms , never never never ! william pitt , earl chatham 1708 1778 18 nov 1777
mcclary netcom com \( michael mcclary \) subject 's next \? mormons jews \? organization committee commemorate waco ghetto uprising lines 23 article cronkite central sun com dbernard clesun central sun com writes gordon writes gentleman , also forgetting near genocide native american barbaric act heathen \( e non christian \) predominantly christian government 's little 200 years recall 'd say part religious persecution \( religion dictated lifestyle \) stretch fact , great many persecuted indians christian , great many would simpler state obvious , white people wanted land indians dominated threatened really n't think government cared hill beans religion native american girlfriend asks government really n't hill religion , come 're still busting us oregon , washington , places \? 'd christian , , u army marched church gunpoint michael mcclary mcclary netcom com faster response , address electronic mail michael node com
hadcrjam admin uh edu \( miller , jimmy \) subject batf fbi revenge organization university houston administrative computing lines 38 distribution world nntp posting host uhad2 admin uh edu x news reader vms news 1 24 reply donb netcom com 's message tue , 20 apr 1993 17 10 52 gmt netcom com donb netcom com writes anyway , 's see waco affair 'd interested peoples' interpretations 1 koresh people basically minding business 2 weapons violations may committed would n't disapproved prosecuting violations however , think batf criminal starting negotiations military style assault firing house children 3 n't see could n't leave token guard place wait bds n't approve tear gas approach , caused fire started , think fbi agent responsible spend 10 20 years jail think legal term would negligent homicide 4 however , koresh 's response tear gas kill everyone , hold largely responsible deaths well , 's nice see someone brain , general lack paranoia , willingness put thoughts public tend agree said never assume foul motives stupidity jim 's occam 's razor semper fi , jammer jim miller texas university '89 '91 n't speak uh , bad , could use help become one student billing system student billing system power finds way take stand stand , ordinary man rik emmet , gil moore , mike levine triumph
vojak icebucket stortek com \( bill vojak \) subject letter david skaggs distribution usa organization storage technology corp lines 136 originator vojak icebucket stortek com nntp posting host icebucket stortek com letter sent david skaggs , \( dem , co \) anybody says something , yes letter bit sharp tone writting reasonable polite letters years , get return hci party line since already nra f rated , n't think upsetting harm cause sorry disagree , recent events texas really pissed april 20 , 1993 representative skaggs , recently wrote regarding outrage tactics used bureau alcohol tobacco firearms , \( batf \) , texas response stated events texas underscore need stricter gun control legislation keep guns hand groups branch davidians question , grounds would use deny access firearms \? best tell statement underscores apparent total ignorance subject , highlights personal bias firearms say two possible paths gun control could referencing either 1 \) talking access semi automatics firearms case point semi automatic firearms legal areas country , including texas colorado addition members cult never convicted crimes would deny ability purchase weapons grounds would deny guns \? religion \? fact live large group alone \? consider cult \? maybe consider church cult ! line reasoning borders concept thought crimes pat robertson really get along 2 \) referring alleged fully automatic weapons possessed cult current us law , fully automatic weapons covered strictest gun control laws nation david koresh illegally possessed , would circumvent strictest laws laws help \? way , reported david koresh possessed federal firearms license would permitted possess fully automatic weapons true , 85 people perished monday fire , died federal government could collect couple hundred dollars taxes guns david koresh n't declare heard claims stockpiling weapons yet considering number people complex , even 200 weapons would line gun ownership statistics texas 's next \? siege dallas ft worth alleged stockpiling \? face david skaggs , voted virtually every gun control law passed congress , yet claim reasonable restrictions bull ! handgun control inc struggling maintain 250 , 000 paid members , nra exceeded 3 , 000 , 000 members still growing rate 2 , 000 new members per day driving around district see nra stickers every day eight plus years living seen one hci bumper sticker vote reasonable gun control laws , really representing district , representing sarah \? thank , william j vojak april 20 , 1993 representative skaggs , recently wrote regarding outrage tactics used bureau alcohol tobacco firearms , \( batf \) , texas response stated events texas underscore need stricter gun control legislation keep guns hand groups branch davidians question , grounds would use deny access firearms \? best tell statement underscores apparent total ignorance subject , highlights personal bias firearms say two possible paths gun control could referencing either 1 \) talking access semi automatics firearms case point semi automatic firearms legal areas country , including texas colorado addition members cult never convicted crimes would deny ability purchase weapons grounds would deny guns \? religion \? fact live large group alone \? consider cult \? maybe consider church cult ! line reasoning borders concept thought crimes pat robertson really get along 2 \) referring alleged fully automatic weapons possessed cult current us law , fully automatic weapons covered strictest gun control laws nation david koresh illegally possessed , would circumvent strictest laws laws help \? way , reported david koresh possessed federal firearms license would permitted possess fully automatic weapons true , 85 people perished monday fire , died federal government could collect couple hundred dollars taxes guns david koresh n't declare heard claims stockpiling weapons yet considering number people complex , even 200 weapons would line gun ownership statistics texas 's next \? siege dallas ft worth alleged stockpiling \? face david skaggs , voted virtually every gun control law passed congress , yet claim reasonable restrictions bull ! handgun control inc struggling maintain 250 , 000 paid members , nra exceeded 3 , 000 , 000 members still growing rate 2 , 000 new members per day driving around district see nra stickers every day eight plus years living seen one hci bumper sticker vote reasonable gun control laws , really representing district , representing sarah \? thank , william j vojak bill vojak vojak icebucket stortek com nra , ila , colorado firearms coalition cbs nightly propaganda dan rather \( rather ! \) cbs nightly propaganda dan rather \( rather biased ! \)
betz gozer idbsu edu \( andrew betz \) subject randy weaver trial update day 5 nntp posting host gozer organization sigsauer fan club lines 94 note trial updates summarized reports idaho statesman local nbc affiliate television station , ktvb channel 7 randy weaver kevin harris trial update day 5 monday , april 19 , 1993 fifth day trial synopsis government informant kenneth fadeley testified randy weaver sold two shotguns violation national firearms act 1934 u district court judge edward lodge asks jurors hear accounts waco fire possible influences weaver harris case testimony fbi special agent greg rampton apparently ended without incident , mentioned neither ktvb idaho statesman day highlighted testimony kenneth fadeley , posing outlaw biker illegal guns person named gus fadeley testified acting informant bureau alcohol , tobacco , firearms dealings randy weaver fadeley began stating met weaver 1987 aryan nations summer conference hayden lake , idaho two met october 11 , 1989 \( note huge separation time \) restaurant , idaho , begin weapons transaction stated weaver said , felt like \( weaver \) prepared something dangerous white cause two later met october 24 , 1989 behind restaurant later went city park make sale second meeting , fadeley wearing small recording device tape conversation weaver allegedly showed h r 12 gauge shotgun 13 inch barrel overall length 19 25 inches additionally showed 12 gauge shotgun 12 75 inch barrel overall length 24 5 inches \( nfa requires 18 inches barrel length overall length 26 inches \) tape , weaver reported said could perform better work machine shop set two discuss possibility future sales fadeley counts three hundred dollars two guns promises balance one hundred fifty dollars next meet \( note atf could simply arrested wait january 1991 year later arrest \? explained \) next meeting took place nov 30 , 1989 fadeley stated source come one hundred dollars instead one hundred fifty 'd promised point , weaver suspected dealing informant , guy spokane tell bad fadeley managed convince weaver otherwise idaho statesman states explicitly three tapes made conversations randy weaver thus , meetings must recorded however , statesman also reported tape telephone conversation involving vicki weaver \( randy weaver 's wife \) played court must also phone taps tapes played court via headphones loudspeakers objections gerry spence , weaver 's attorney spence said ktvb reporter wanted make sure government proved case , case according rules randy weaver tore headphones wept heard wife 's voice tape u district court judge edward lodge asked jurors hear accounts waco fire possible influences weaver harris case exactly information could affect trial explained notes sunday evening report ktvb concerning kevin harris unnamed agents within fbi admit surprised kevin harris still alive first , surprised survived initial gunshot wound \( \) sustained initial firefight junction later , randy weaver struck sniper fire sniper reported harris struck \( weaver \) finally , report fbi agent killed vicki weaver believed aiming kevin harris instead \( reported \) critics charging fbi blatantly trying eliminate non government witness deaths samuel weaver deputy marshal william degan local people believe harris 's survival simply due divine intervention tuesday , april 20 , 1993 sixth day trial kenneth fadeley 's testimony scheduled continue
pes3 cunixf cc columbia edu \( paul eric stoufflet \) subject clipper chip nntp posting host cunixf cc columbia edu reply pes3 cunixf cc columbia edu \( paul eric stoufflet \) organization columbia university distribution usa lines 12 thought clipper chip posted p g \( sorry , lost original post \) joke really n't believe second way work morning , heard npr scares almost much doublespeak fbi batf waco paul eric stoufflet columbia presbyterian medical center internet pes3 cunixf cc columbia edu opinions
pes3 cunixf cc columbia edu \( paul eric stoufflet \) subject die koresh die ! nntp posting host cunixf cc columbia edu reply pes3 cunixf cc columbia edu \( paul eric stoufflet \) organization columbia university lines 23 article umcc umcc umich edu tim umcc umcc umich edu \( tim tyler \) writes hoping however situation resolved property would remain intact , gov't could sell help pay hundreds thousands dollars expenses incurred koresh flock sheep south american countries , political disappeared , family would get notice death bill disposal body apparently think would good idea federal government initiated action koresh followers , surrounded 51 days , engaged psychological warfare , used heavy military equipment us citizens us soil compound caught fire pumping cs gas knocking holes building responsibility big brother always right paul eric stoufflet columbia presbyterian medical center internet pes3 cunixf cc columbia edu opinions
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject ax atf organization stratus computer , inc lines 13 distribution world nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article netcom com , donb netcom com \( baldwin \) writes 's hard know believe however , letter received batf , response one sent bentsen , said search warrant arrest warrant check may find arrest warrant issued first firefight cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
rcanders nyx cs du edu \( mr nice guy \) subject blast next time x disclaimer nyx public access unix system run university denver denver community university neither control responsibility opinions users organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept distribution usa lines 35 article 1r19l9 7dv usenet ins cwru edu oldham ces cwru edu \( daniel oldham \) writes happened waco fault batf would proper equipment personal could captured compound initial assault none would happened batf needs people , better weapons armored transports meet hostile fire able use force instead retreating stand going job right batf protect us must proper equipment people job wod increased crime streets batf needed ever blast away good fokes price pay law order country look good people died wars protect great country arms build waco needed hit compound mega fire power could gone blasting killed women kids would better letting burn death 51 days later hope way noble federal enforcers blown away accidently governments goons would cheer death 25 \? sort person served death camp guard rod anderson n0nzo acceptable substitute boulder , co brains silence rcanders nyx cs du edu solomon short satellite n0nzo ao 16
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject batf fbi murders almost everyone waco today ! 4 19 organization stratus computer , inc lines 33 distribution world nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article kevin axon usa , kevin axon usa \( kevin vanhorn \) writes article c5rpoj ijv news udel edu roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) writes two nine escaped compound said fire deliberately set cult members correction fbi says two nine escaped said fire deliberately set cult members since press kept miles away , absolutely independent verification government 's claims matter moreover , batf admitted agents compound , far able ascertain , agents still compound first shots fired know , two people may agents , would certainly unlikely stay around cook faithful assuming two people question even compound maybe sound paranoid , watched janet reno last night harping much david koresh big , bad child abuser , kept wondering much less batf wanted us infer jurisdiction accusations first place i'm positive sealed warrant child abuse \? weapons violations janet reno n't say word one last night weapons violations \? knows case longer believable \? cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization stratus computer , inc lines 22 distribution world nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com keywords nata thing ! ! article 1993apr20 143255 12711 mcs kent edu , mhamilto nimitz mcs kent edu \( lawnmowerman \) writes genocidal mass slaughter innocent people , including children ! guy serious \? \? \? \? would ever really pay attention news \( oops forgot media part loves jump right top story facts known , well manipulate see thus believe \) besides , majority children children supposed father , makes bastard children sacraligious \( sp \) oh , , guess shooting kind babies right sick bastard cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization stratus computer , inc lines 13 distribution world nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article 1r19tp 5em bigboote wpi edu , mfrhein wpi wpi edu \( michael frederick rhein \) writes napalm , let wood stove inside ignite someone else pointed , would stove use warm day texas eat food cold \? cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
rcanders nyx cs du edu \( mr nice guy \) subject incompetent law enforcement kill x disclaimer nyx public access unix system run university denver denver community university neither control responsibility opinions users organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept lines 40 ever since siege waco started fbi spokesman unstable paranoid david koresh stressed likely branch davidians would commit mass suicide concerned safety children fbi situation , try reassure koresh \? fbi offer medical assistance bd \? fbi offer supply water bd pump working \? permit koresh communicate anyone outside compound \? fbi harass branch davidians much possible kept powerful lights shining compound , shut electrical power , put pump action , assaulted ears loud noise , cut communication outside kept limiting stated goal put pressure david koresh fbi attempting get koresh surrender hoping get koresh mad followers would attack tanks appears tactics employed fbi drive koresh edge blame deaths shared federal experts whose tactics drove koresh edge fools atf raid stupidity incompetence batf fbi leadership resulted needless death 90 innocent people every thing gone planned 90 people would alive today instead atf screwed caused death 90 incompetent law enforcement kill ! rod anderson n0nzo acceptable substitute boulder , co brains silence rcanders nyx cs du edu solomon short satellite n0nzo ao 16
rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu \( ryan c scharfy \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 19 article netcom com mvp netcom com \( mike van pelt \) writes article pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) writes cute koresh hit trail maybe bodily assumed heaven would n't make ag reno 's day \? snort sorta doubt however bodies \? time message gets 'll doubtless found bunches , would n't interesting tunnel long gone \? n't killed atf people original raid , think would laugh ass \( actually , honest , still might \) ryan
meyers leonardo rtp dg com \( bill meyers \) subject gun control organization n lines 16 article 1993apr14 beaver cs washington edu graham cs washington edu \( stephen graham \) writes 's worth noting us vs miller sustained miller 's conviction possession illegal firearm , noting sawed shotgun proper militia weapon therefore , us vs miller supports limited government regulation firearms also supports basing regulations ignorance miller disappeared , nobody bothered present side supreme court particular , sawed shotguns used world war trenches , tight spots ever since guns invented would turn one clean alley e st louis \? vegetarians kill ,
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject blast next time organization stratus computer , inc lines 22 distribution usa nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article 1r19l9 7dv usenet ins cwru edu , oldham ces cwru edu \( daniel oldham \) writes batf needs people , better weapons armored transports meet hostile fire able use force instead retreating stand going job right batf protect us must proper equipment people job batf collect taxes , protect sorry ass mine wod increased crime streets batf needed ever blast away good fokes price pay law order country flame bait , course really want flame bait , send address 'll tell batf automatic weapons stockpiled 'll warm time cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
rcanders nyx cs du edu \( mr nice guy \) subject cs burn explode x disclaimer nyx public access unix system run university denver denver community university neither control responsibility opinions users organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept lines 13 fbi released large amounts cs tear gas compound waco cs tear gas fine power cs grain dust suspended air form explosive mixture , cs suspended air form explosive mix \? could large quantities cs fueled rapid spread fire compound \? please note directing followups talk politics guns rod anderson n0nzo acceptable substitute boulder , co brains silence rcanders nyx cs du edu solomon short satellite n0nzo ao 16
netcom com \( executive protection assoc \) subject blast next time organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 distribution usa lines 32 thought unfortunate people branch dividians brainwashed \? \? n't hold candle guy wq b daniel oldham \( oldham ces cwru edu \) wrote happened waco fault batf would proper equipment personal could captured compound initial assault none would happened batf needs people , better weapons armored transports meet hostile fire able use force instead retreating stand going job right batf protect us must proper equipment people job wod increased crime streets batf needed ever blast away good fokes price pay law order country look good people died wars protect great country arms build waco needed hit compound mega fire power could gone blasting killed women kids would better letting burn death 51 days later
ndallen r node hub org \( nigel allen \) subject fbi director 's statement waco standoff organization r node public access unix 1 416 249 5366 lines 26 interests completeness , thought readers newsgroups would want see fbi director william statement , released fbi press office fbi director 's statement waco standoff national desk contact federal bureau investigation , press office , 202 324 washington , april 19 following statement fbi director william sessions regarding branch davidian incident waco , texas hoped making different statement evening careful planning extensive preparation thought today 's efforts fbi bring branch davidians compound would result peaceful resolution stand least meaningful negotiation instead , faced devastation death however , question plan correct conducted extreme professionalism care applaud restraint shown agents face life threatening gunfire , thank risking lives try end peacefully greatest admiration courage professionalism involved 30
irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \( brent irvine \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization university illinois urbana champaign lines 63 article 93109 13404334aej7d cmuvm bitnet 34aej7d cmuvm bitnet writes surprised post makes past censors , goes monday , 19 april , 1993 13 30 edt murder foul ! ! cnn reporting write atf ignited buildings branch dividian ranch near waco , tx lies atf say holes made walls 'non lethal' tear gas pumped minutes started whole thing went buildings aflame one escaped think obvious atf used armored flame thrower vehicles pump unlit napalm , let wood stove inside ignite actually 'a translates 6 hours , right \( guess single source news agency cnn \) failed mention davidians pouring kerosene lighting plain view murder ! well , small scale jim jones type suicide fire instead kool aid atf murderers ! butchers ! ! sorry , guy , got wrong atf pumping tear gas compound branch davidians \( going along faith \) set compound fire killing 9 children survived genocidal mass slaughter innocent people , including children ! self slaughter , anyway pity children young able make conscious choice predicted start , god , sickens see happen hoped wrong hoped still shred america grew , loved , left alive wrong nazis wrong thank goodness would suggest , however , take deep breath , wait 30 minutes posting also make sure facts correct making allegations \( sp \) repeat , time survivors ! repeated wrong 9 god help us god help branch davidians please crosspost let get away slaughter children ! ! ! ! ! way much crap crossposted creation ! ! ! ! ! ! personal opinions \? , brent irvine yes think irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \?
random cbnewse cb att com \( david l pope \) subject riddle something else organization distribution usa lines 11 hand , wonder , face full massive amounts cs , would able escape burning tinder box like ranch house assuming best efforts ever happened kept hearing \? thought ! kgbatf knew , n't talking heads line start \? random
chuck eng umd edu \( chuck harris wa3uqv \) subject riddle organization university maryland , department electrical engineering lines 15 distribution usa nntp posting host eng umd edu article 1993apr20 050550 4660 jupiter sun csd unb ca j979 jupiter sun csd unb ca \( fuller \) writes harmful gassing mean , little , stay inside indefinitely without suffering serious health problems \? , cs often employed tunnels vietnam \? difference , anyway \? cs tear gas used vietnam makes hard stomach comes thru throat well , quite bad , ca n't really much defend blowing cookies chuck harris wa3uqv chuck eng umd edu
feustel netcom com \( david feustel \) subject die koresh die ! organization dafco os 2 software support consulting lines 9 explanations federal law enforcement officials happened waco another example survivors writing history books put best bad light dave feustel n9myi feustel netcom com i'm beginning look forward reaching 100 allocation taxes pay interest national debt point federal government go business lack funds
glover mitre org \( graham k glover \) subject cold war really \? nntp posting host mac mitre org organization mitre corporation , mclean , va lines 13 one reasons united states america one time represented protected freedom individual liberty personal responsibility \( , fact , think true \) totalitarianism absolute government control tyranny represents freedom 's opposite \( \) , usa really win cold war \? standard disclaimers always apply ! graham k glover
roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) subject batf fbi murders almost everyone waco today ! 4 19 nntp posting host chopin udel edu organization university delaware lines 45 article 1993apr20 guinness idbsu edu betz gozer idbsu edu \( andrew betz \) writes article c5sou8 lnb news udel edu roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) writes watch \? two miles away \? far enough away whatever really happenned must explained vengeful filter humiliated agency said \( quote ! \) enough enough please tell think would happened people come hands several weeks ago answer n't answer question fbi took people camera range thus possible engaging questionable activities feel like cameras range cameras watched first confrontation cameras watched banners watched final confrontation tanks cameras watched fire n't cameras able watch \? would cameras unable watch people coming hands \? question , please tell think would happened atf goon squad knocked asked politely several weeks ago \( opposed playing rambo v crew tow \) well , batf done either , koresh would gone peaceably done past , perhaps already close apocalypse mind hard predict actions leader would release children rational people would answer question top \? drew betz gozer idbsu edu brought terminal free state idaho outlaw rights , outlaws rights spook fodder fema , nsa , clinton , gore , insurrection , nsc , semtex , neptunium , terrorist , cia , mi5 , mi6 , kgb , deuterium
organization university illinois chicago , academic computer center jason kratz u28037 uicvm uic edu subject statement everyone p g 1993apr19 csd newshost stanford edu lines 43 article 1993apr19 csd newshost stanford edu , andy sail stanford edu \( andy freeman \) says clue position n't defense oppose gun control n't work , 'd support fact , supported gun control homework 's demand pro gun people n't know 're talking fact , 'd much better n't say anything freeman \? even pro gun person n't know talking always possibility learn thing two continue post even people get angry say several good sources material know look calm 's lots information flowing tpg interested learning one participate discussions without ranting failure consequences ah , freeman seems forget statement learning also asked several hostile folks group sources information read think , freeman , maybe means interested learning \? think said people n't know anything wo n't good pro gun cause another good habit get go read , take time figure things work another good habit get realize everyone freeman accept mistakes sure , maybe could type misinformation anti gun nut n't made statement inform everyone everyone replied said n't worry also learn much accepted mistake gave sources information told read much possible read several posts found informative n't give chance \? andy jason
angelo amd com \( larry \) subject guns gone good riddance ! organization advanced micro devices , inc lines 29 jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes loosing stuff deleted avoid situations encourage criminals safe possible really \? avoid situations encourage criminals \? 'd really like know would , say , prohibit female college students riding bicycles near university daytime \? sounds bit drastic , n't \? especially university nice residential area friend mine attacked nearly raped situation police n't feel situation think \? tell , fault daring ride bicycle middle day \? n't avoid situation encouraged criminals \? 's case , 'd better put bars doors windows pray police state keep us safe crime happens situations defined areas criminals avoid larry advanced micro devices angelo amd com
fiddler concertina eng sun com \( steve hix \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization sun lines 33 nntp posting host concertina article c5sv88 hjy news cso uiuc edu irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \( brent irvine \) writes article 1r1j3n 4t transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) writes article 1r19tp 5em bigboote wpi edu , mfrhein wpi wpi edu \( michael frederick rhein \) writes napalm , let wood stove inside ignite someone else pointed , would stove use warm day texas eat food cold \? ever hear electric ovens microwaves \? popular electric stoves outside metro areas especially brent , feds turned bd 's electricity couple weeks ago perhaps n't paying attention radio , tv , newspapers , though things important give away everybody else none left dieter car salesman
roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) subject batf fbi murders almost everyone waco today ! 4 19 nntp posting host chopin udel edu organization university delaware lines 61 article transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) writes article c5s0ds j54 news udel edu , roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) writes original question started fire whether madmen inside outside compound replied possible sanity level inside outside according australian documentary made year stand began , koresh followers believed christ koresh sex children women married men compound perfect children resulting great seed magnified horn ex members describe ways dissimilar way jim jones described point noted submitted faith sex life batf clearance \? better hurry believe deadline april 15 paid taxes reference sex religion form comments meant address might unstable enough keep children building tear gas start fire fbi agents pass rigorous psychological examinations background checks plus , charge undoubtedly explain decisions great detail congress would fbi want fulfill koresh 's prophecy \? nevertheless , hit marks read lines well , sure beats hell maybe clue said , impossible make anything , fools agree batf handled affair badly two nine escaped compound said fire deliberately set cult members correction fbi said two cult members said far , one else able talk , talk news reporters directly , relate details , believe \? believe \? wo n't even recognize neither anyone else n't know personally believe would put national tv cameras \? point , getting conflicting reports survivors best wait til light shed upon course , good believe eternal darkness cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) subject batf fbi murders almost everyone waco today ! 4 19 nntp posting host chopin udel edu organization university delaware lines 51 article appserv eng sun com fiddler concertina eng sun com \( steve hix \) writes article news udel edu roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) writes n't release children weeks ago \? would inconsistent behavior done people believe life physical requirements folks believed generally held standards surrounding community \( heck , world \) morally wrong , letting children abandoned \( godless unbelieving \) culture would eternal loss separation god standards , letting children go would abandoning fate literally worse death fbi \( batf media \) people working issue , suspect , could n't get heads similar enough \( say nothing identical \) mode thinking realize physically , reason bd 's n't given come long time ago point view bd 's , wall nowhere go apparently really love kids much abandon godless bunch outsiders although end result horribly twisted n't say bd 's right , said 's way perceived koresh nutcase , bunch people paid fbi batf miscalculated misunderstood going word go likely possible reminds movie rapture things important give away everybody else none left dieter car salesman
feustel netcom com \( david feustel \) subject batf fbi murders almost everyone waco today ! 4 19 organization dafco os 2 software support consulting lines 10 's truly unfortunate n't japanese tradition kari public officials salvage honor commit offenses humanity like perpetrated waco , texas today dave feustel n9myi feustel netcom com i'm beginning look forward reaching 100 allocation taxes pay interest national debt point federal government go business lack funds
subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! steiner jupiter cse utoledo edu \( jason 'think ! ' steiner \) nntp posting host jupiter cse utoledo edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 26 brent irvine \( irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \) writes cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) writes mfrhein wpi wpi edu \( michael frederick rhein \) writes napalm , let wood stove inside ignite someone else pointed , would stove use warm day texas eat food cold \? ever hear electric ovens microwaves \? popular electric stoves outside metro areas especially oh , see electricity natural right wonderful government would never cut power people really dumb , acting like sake argument \? jason ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` ` , ` true love better anything , except cough drops ` , ` ` , ` bride \( book \) , william goldman ` , ` ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` , ` steiner jupiter cse utoledo edu ` , ` , ` , `
chiu io nosc mil \( francis chiu \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization san diego state university , college sciences lines 20 nntp posting host io nosc mil x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl7 brent irvine \( irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \) wrote failed mention davidians pouring kerosene lighting plain view brent , i'm still waiting see evidence fire got started , i'm going tell far keep talking davidians pouring kerosene , stop think second possible stove lamp knocked started fire , davidians pouring water \( wrong solution doubt much better states mind \) try put \? way , far standing davidians saw setting place fire \? oh , case new town , microwave ovens n't work well 's electricty 0 get facts post next time ! f chiu
strait cheetah csl uiuc edu \( jeffrey c strait \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization university illinois lines 25 distribution world nntp posting host cheetah csl uiuc edu article c5sv88 hjy news cso uiuc edu , irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \( brent irvine \) writes napalm , let wood stove inside ignite someone else pointed , would stove use warm day texas eat food cold \? ever hear electric ovens microwaves \? popular electric stoves outside metro areas especially microwaves n't work well electricity mr engineer personal opinions \? , brent irvine yes think irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \? jeff strait strait uicsl csl uiuc edu university illinois phone \( 217 \) 333 ladies leave island , survive basic recruit training , weapon , minister death praying war
earlw apple com \( earl wallace \) subject 's next \? mormons jews \? organization apple computer inc esd cross platform software lines 16 nntp posting host apple com article 1993apr20 22480 midway uchicago edu thf2 midway uchicago edu writes article 6rf usenet ins cwru edu cj195 cleveland freenet edu \( john w redelfs \) writes big brother rubbed one minority religion waco , next \? mormons jews \? koreshians rubbed neither mormons jews propensity dousing kerosene , i'm particularly concerned \( shall blame jim jones government also \? \) let 's see straight law created says automatic weapon therefore 's ok government use level force enforce law n't matter entire population planet destroyed long law obeyed read correctly \?
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization stratus computer , inc lines 16 distribution world nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article c5sv88 hjy news cso uiuc edu , irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \( brent irvine \) writes someone else pointed , would stove use warm day texas eat food cold \? ever hear electric ovens microwaves \? popular electric stoves outside metro areas especially work especially well feds cut utilities cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization hand held products , inc lines 38 distribution world nntp posting host dale handheld com article c5sv88 hjy news cso uiuc edu irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \( brent irvine \) writes article 1r1j3n 4t transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) writes article 1r19tp 5em bigboote wpi edu , mfrhein wpi wpi edu \( michael frederick rhein \) writes napalm , let wood stove inside ignite someone else pointed , would stove use warm day texas eat food cold \? ever hear electric ovens microwaves \? popular electric stoves outside metro areas especially brent shows ignorance power cut weeks 's never lived rural area thinks electric stoves favor stop working power fails , power restoration come much slower country , city lp gas stoves ovens much prefered personal opinions \? , brent irvine yes think irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \? jim jmd handheld com i'm always rethinking 's never day n't rethought ca n't bill clinton 6 april 93 american , englishman , foreign troop landed country , never would lay arms , never never never ! william pitt , earl chatham 1708 1778 18 nov 1777
jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) subject batf fbi murders almost everyone waco today ! 4 19 organization hand held products , inc lines 82 distribution world nntp posting host dale handheld com article c5sou8 lnb news udel edu roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) writes article 1993apr20 163730 16128 guinness idbsu edu betz gozer idbsu edu \( andrew betz \) writes article c5rynw iz8 news udel edu roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) writes suppose fbi also prevented coming hands national tv cameras watch watch \? two miles away \? far enough away whatever really happenned must explained vengeful filter humiliated agency said \( quote ! \) enough enough please tell think would happened people come hands several weeks ago n't happen scenario simplest plausible generally believe conspiracy theories involve complicated unlikely scenarios fbi sent letters martin luther king 's wife insinuating mlk affair ! , please tell us exactly much trust supposedly benevolent government someone would release children compound obviously authority worshiper e , david koresh vernon howell jesus christ saw lengthy excerpts australian documentary made 1992 clearly showed cult give camera , time , present excerpts show cult leader guarenteed least view whole documentary claim source pleased batf handling affair think bungled badly start n't think responsible fire , started two different places two places , eh \? saw \? wonderful fbi tell \? saw one place batf means devoid fault handling affair suggest may intentionally started fire ludicrous suspect plenty camerapeople willing risk small arms fire get good footage people told get hell camera range \? could n't answer one , eh \? important question , root cause suspicion drew betz gozer idbsu edu brought terminal free state idaho outlaw rights , outlaws rights spook fodder fema , nsa , clinton , gore , insurrection , nsc , semtex , neptunium , terrorist , cia , mi5 , mi6 , kgb , deuterium jim jmd handheld com i'm always rethinking 's never day n't rethought ca n't bill clinton 6 april 93 american , englishman , foreign troop landed country , never would lay arms , never never never ! william pitt , earl chatham 1708 1778 18 nov 1777
meyers leonardo rtp dg com \( bill meyers \) subject 'pill' deer hunting organization n lines 114 article transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) writes article 1993apr14 2332 gnv ifas ufl edu , jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes 'good' neighborhoods 'good' \? n't every person armed teeth \( 1 \) attitude \( 2 \) cooperation 'good' neighborhoods , residents make aware neighbors notice strangers lurking around 'good' neighborhoods form groups like increase effect , relative effectiveness police arrested , good neighbors step say that's one officer ! robbing mr house sometimes works sometimes lands good neighbors dance card next wave drive someone told story la gangs moving phoenix 've misplaced copy , cdt newsgroups talk politics guns , ou politics path dg rtp ! psinntp ! uunet ! sun barr ! ames ! umd edu ! darwin sura net ! wupost ! csus edu ! netcom com ! mvp mvp netcom com \( mike van pelt \) subject difference armed civilian population makes message id tc mvp netcom com date thu , 17 sep 92 23 42 42 gmt organization netcom online communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) references swood vela lines 84 along lines armed citizen , 's story may find amusing 's story arizona house hunting , leslie fish , musician author one reasons i'm planning move arizona despite lousy economy , 4 way race problems , religious problems hopelessly bad government arizona one lowest violent crime rates country coincidence arizona also one remaining gun control states country \? well , consider funny story last time phoenix , staying liz burnham , checking local real estate market \( 's discovered , income provable tax returns qualify every low income housing loan book , exception va \) , came across astonishing ad local market paper offered three bedroom house phoenix area ready 10 , 000 money 100 per month total payments christ harley davidson ! called real estate office making offer , made clear checking local market , asked house walls , roof foundation structurally sound \? yes plumbing electrical systems functional code \? yes air conditioning system \( absolute necessity phoenix \) work \? yes , okay , wrong house \? well , needed lots , painting , yard work , roof yes , low interest repair loans available okay , sez 's 's wrong , selling 3 bedroom house 10 , 000 \? well , agent , 's kind bad neighborhood bad \? sez , remembering neighborhoods 've seen chicago oakland worst city , agent , told amazing story every years , seems , big vice gangs los angeles notice 's gang presence phoenix quick 5 hour drive la get idea setting subsidiary well , couple years ago , force came neighborhood poor spanish , figured could move right take bought house started operations unfortunately , neighbors n't like n't care whores streets night , soliciting kids , dope deals corners broad daylight , n't afraid something neighbors called cops \( reason , phoenix police remarkably honest , capable , polite prompt \) , cops promptly came swept whores , pushers street away jail remaining gang members decided retaliate fashion usually use la got 's name address court records , drive shooting house well , n't los angeles moment neighbors heard first gunshots fired , ran front doors guns rifles , shotguns , pistols , everything shot back car n't make end block stop , holes famous bonnie clyde getaway car \( 've seen 's display las vegas \) gas tank fuel lines ruptured , car caught fire neighbors waited good 15 minutes making sure nobody got car called fire department come put fire tow wreck away time , asphalt car melted caught fire , subsequently left large nasty pot hole street city slow repairing small streets , hole stayed providing traffic hazard several months two years ago , agent concluded , 's trouble since , house neighborhood still bad reputation 's house cheap hearing story , nearly laughed ass told agent money moment , 'd god buy house nothing compared bad neighborhoods 'd seen california , drive shootings go unchecked well armed cops , let alone unarmed neighbors 's absolute worst 'll find phoenix , 's city 's difference armed civilian population makes think mike van pelt guns outlawed , mvp netcom com carl rowan guns mvp com
strait cheetah csl uiuc edu \( jeffrey c strait \) subject 's next \? mormons jews \? organization university illinois lines 17 distribution world nntp posting host cheetah csl uiuc edu article dif apple com , earlw apple com \( earl wallace \) writes koreshians rubbed neither mormons jews propensity dousing kerosene , i'm particularly concerned \( shall blame jim jones government also \? \) silly make statement fifteen minutes fire started , official word fbi dc dv 's committed suicide would seem logical lantern story credibility ca n't even pretend know sure happened although clinton jeff strait strait uicsl csl uiuc edu university illinois phone \( 217 \) 333 impeach klinton
popovich cs columbia edu \( steve popovich \) subject change name \? \? reply gs26 prism gatech edu 's message 20 apr 93 17 46 10 gmt organization columbia university lines 11 censored norway think 's telling us run place \? wanna know somebody please guess norway survived third reich \? give hint , n't passive resistance way believe something politician whose name n't exactly complimentary word nowadays one vidkun quisling know quisling , right \? i'm sure everyone come examples right steve
meyers leonardo rtp dg com \( bill meyers \) subject silly outdated bill \( koresh miranda \) organization n lines 17 article 1993apr15 csd newshost stanford edu andy sail stanford edu \( andy freeman \) writes article vela acs oakland edu awesley vela acs oakland edu \( awesley \) writes actually , one confirmed sniper die detroit , according sauter hines , nightmare detroit , rebellion 's sources sauter hines use \? congressional hearings later , newspaper folk admitted reports completely wrong \( excuses understandable , others amount gross negligence 's lied \) far know , never followup , btw , normal behavior 's followup n't news pleased accept life membership national rifle association extend organization every good wish continued success president john f kennedy , march 20 , 1961
slc unisys com \( james warren \) subject reasonable \( criminals \? \) civie arms limits organization unisys corporation slc lines 27 article 1993apr19 gnv ifas ufl edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes poster claims asks anti gunners think would reasonable personal firepower ok caliber greater 32 muzzle greater 300 ft lbs combo bullet wt vel action single shot rifles single action revolvers revolvers bearing six rounds incorporating mechanism discourage roy rogers bullets non explosive variety , hps fine specs leave 32 h r magnum powerful allowable civie cartridge handgun rifle use would reasonably effective home intruders , muggers , rabid wolves , even firearm type limitations time , caliber power limit would reduce ultimate lethality hits suspect think less lethal typical assault weapon wrong compared criminals use , 9mm military ammo \( \) , military rifle \( use extremely rare \) , 223 7 military ammo \( \) , 32 h r magnum civie bullets lethal arms criminals \( military \) use among least lethal arms existance punish criminal leave law abiding citizen alone \? n't tried times , might work
barker rigel cs pdx edu \( james barker \) subject nra address \? summary address nra right keep bear anti tank weapons keywords nra waco rkba lines 41 could someone email usnail address nra \? 'd like write letter encouraging see emphatically 2nd amendment restored form founding fathers intended people like howard metzenbaum seem intent 2nd amendment point effort waco , know federalist papers , kind tyranny 2nd amendment supposed designed protect honestly ! 60 tanks civilian population ! attack helicopters ! need right keep bear anti tank weapons actually , intend mass armour \( weakly armed , \) civilian population , need right field tactical nukes government tyranny ! would ever thought would happen ! wonder house 'll run tanks next , gov suspects child abuse maybe ! maybe mine ! illegal weapon \( yet show us \) , 2nd amendment designed believe , gov uses tanks \? government self serving \? time u used armour attack helicopters small countries , 're using amounts half civilians first came jews , stop , jew came catholics , stop catholic ! came lutherans , one left stop ! rev martin \( probably n't get verbatim , get idea \) nra reads , never mind address god save us ! james barker portland state university barker cs pdx edu
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject batf fbi murders almost everyone waco today ! 4 19 organization stratus computer , inc lines 58 distribution world nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article il news udel edu , roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) writes article transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) writes article c5s0ds j54 news udel edu , roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) writes original question started fire whether madmen inside outside compound replied possible sanity level inside outside argument well , n't make well started questionable premise fire necessarily act insanity , rather act negligence accident recall , one survivor claims fire started tank knocked kerosene lamp kind makes arguments regarding relative sanity somewhat moot , \? according australian documentary made year stand began , koresh followers believed christ koresh sex children women married men compound perfect children resulting great seed magnified horn ex members describe ways dissimilar way jim jones described point noted submitted faith sex life batf clearance \? better hurry believe deadline april 15 paid taxes reference sex religion form nice evasive maneuver , mr , 're still tail let ask plainly complaints david koresh 's religious sexual justified armed raid bureau alcohol , tobacco , firearms \? two nine escaped compound said fire deliberately set cult members , talk news reporters directly , relate details , believe \? believe \? wo n't even recognize neither anyone else n't know personally believe would put national tv cameras \? 's entirely far fetched nobody outside compound would know everybody inside compound n't forget , batf admits agents inside compound , case point , getting conflicting reports survivors best wait til light shed upon course , good believe eternal darkness i'm simply devil 's advocate 's reasonable doubt standing way anybody totally swallowing official government story waco cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
mikey ccwf cc utexas edu \( strider \) subject batf fbi murders almost everyone waco today ! 4 19 organization university texas austin , austin tx lines 43 nntp posting host louie cc utexas edu roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) writes mikey ccwf cc utexas edu \( strider \) writes according australian documentary made year stand began , koresh followers believed christ koresh sex children women married men compound perfect children resulting great seed magnified horn ex members describe ways dissimilar way jim jones described n't know accurate documentary however , koresh never convicted crimes children , batf child abuse \( case \) strictly firearms violations , information irrelevant discussion fbi agents pass rigorous psychological examinations background checks plus , charge undoubtedly explain decisions great detail congress would fbi want fulfill koresh 's prophecy \? charge undoubtedly explain something , whether answers even remotely resembles truth may never know left alive care whether prophecy fulfilled \? holds meaning nine survived correction fbi said two cult members said far , one else able talk , talk news reporters directly , relate details , believe \? confirm story , probably definitely , however mike ruff , thine r e r mikey ccwf cc utexas edu self true polonius would sacrifice essential liberties little temporary safety deserve neither liberty safety b franklin
kennejs cs okstate edu \( kennedy james scot \) subject guns gone good riddance ! organization oklahoma state university lines 63 article 1993apr18 000152 2339 gnv ifas ufl edu , jrm gnv ifas ufl edu loosing question vote , cause considered abomination matter hard try , public opinion set rkba irrational fools set rkba plenty people support end finish clinton administration , rkba null void tough titty government overthrown long happens huge composed available men women care country defeat forces evil people prevail ! oh , think armed citizens alone ca n't overthrow government \? consider think law enforcement officials members armed forces turn people entrusted serve \? hardly count lot people army , marines , air force , navy , national guard , police officers , joining cause defend liberties freedoms american citizens count ! government able disarm everyone without starting civil war ! better discover ways make without firearms number cases firearms abuses ruined cause nothing live sword shall die press , public \( voting public \) , flow history ! surrender arms soon enough , officers around collect wrong people hide guns officers \( like jack booted \) able find resistance useless overwhelm one time neighbors help consider immediate threat abstract 'criminal' unless idiots realize n't next including believe describe happens coming guns disarming citizens would require everyone 's freedoms liberties suspended temporarily likely , 'd never restored unless people something fucking bad gone way kkk violent solutions passe' avoid situations encourage criminals safe possible scott kennedy , brewer patriot david koresh cheap thug interprets bible barrel gun atf spokesman atf cheap thug interprets constitution barrel gun
kennejs cs okstate edu \( kennedy james scot \) subject 2nd amendment dead good ! organization oklahoma state university lines 49 article 1993apr18 001319 2340 gnv ifas ufl edu , jrm gnv ifas ufl edu yea , millions cases yoy say firearms 'deter' criminals alas , provable think actually cases certainly provable around million americans every year defend firearms many cases defender n't even fire shot ! mere presence gun oftentimes deterrent needed n't like violence anymore anyone else , taking away right americans keep bear arms solution violent crime problem country honest , law abiding citizens unable get firearms even criminals able acquire guns illegal channels expect start seeing crime smuggle drugs country start smuggling guns believe happen plenty economic incentive gangsters import guns country guns banned bulk firarems used unworthy unnesessary opponents posessa cool jakcet want , would argue parking space , would take woman short , trivial worthless causes statistics , por favor \? much ruined cause recovery near future , federal martials come arms one help dangerous , thinking , 'criminal' fault see previous post ought set straight 2nd amendment dead accept find another way people right keep bear arms matter constitution says means even 2nd amendment repealed people \( 's american citizens fyi \) still right keep bear arms scott kennedy , brewer patriot david koresh cheap thug interprets bible barrel gun atf spokesman atf cheap thug interprets constitution barrel gun
jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) subject batf fbi murders almost everyone waco today ! 4 19 organization hand held products , inc lines 89 distribution world nntp posting host dale handheld com article news udel edu roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) writes article 1r0qsrinnc61 clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) writes article c5s0ds j54 news udel edu roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) writes agree deserved trial 40 days come get trial chose keep children stay inside chose stay inside even tear gassed find actions rational even noriega smart enough give go trial deserved mr roby , government sucking heartless bastard unworthy comment apparently true opinion , , course humans died yesterday , humans would died fbi taken actions undeniable truth cried would died come hands empty undeniable truth , possible fbi planned happen , gunfire heard fbi keeping folks inside i'm proposing way went , point 's undeniable walked yesterday , would alive today heart bleeds much children never released given 51 days ample opportunities heart also bleeds people blinded religious devotion common sense leave compound tanks came started dropping tear gas early morning heart bleeds one bleeding heart i'm sure beyond possible doubt feel people say heartless things said seem say got deserved think however , set fire \( started one place spread quickly \) , got wanted put motion got wanted kind creature believe \? see batf going investigated justice dept likely arlen spectre congress good bungled affair start agree lets god , fbi , investigated , jim jmd handheld com i'm always rethinking 's never day n't rethought ca n't bill clinton 6 april 93 american , englishman , foreign troop landed country , never would lay arms , never never never ! william pitt , earl chatham 1708 1778 18 nov 1777 jim jmd handheld com i'm always rethinking 's never day n't rethought ca n't bill clinton 6 april 93 american , englishman , foreign troop landed country , never would lay arms , never never never ! william pitt , earl chatham 1708 1778 18 nov 1777
yoony aix rpi edu \( young hoon yoon \) subject boston gun buy back nntp posting host aix rpi edu lines 27 bnr ca \( myron petro \) writes ron miller wrote ask question authorities sponsors buyback programs whether check stolen weapons answer , 's total amnesty \( good point registration schemes used harassment deleted \) would also like point receiving stolen property different pawn shop owner thing myron petro nra , y'all opinions included post sole responsibility protected first amendment second amendment interesting idea consider locality buy back program instituted , get list guns received compare serial numbers list stolen guns sue people responsible program guns destroyed criminal charges also made \( receiving stolen property , destruction private property etc \)
subject really apples apples \? \( lawful vs unlawful use guns \) kim39 scws8 harvard edu \( john kim \) distribution world organization harvard university science center nntp posting host scws8 harvard edu lines 30 convinced right americans effective self defense , something strikes odd among pro rkba arguments presented numbers comparing hundreds thousands \( indeed , even million \) instances law abiding citizens deterring criminal activity , seem valid likewise number gun caused homicides year \( 11 , 000 year \? \) however , surprising evil empire \( darth vader breathing sound effect \) never tries compare legitimate gun defenses vs gun crimes instead , 's always legitimate gun defenses , includes cases criminals shot killed , cases criminal , vs criminal gun homicides , includes case sin victim died \? course , would n't unreasonable say crime already measured \( involving guns \) , already known safe assume gun based bank robbery last week suddenly turn gun robbery homicide whereas legitimate gun defenses , one may assume criminals deterred would committed crime serious crimes deterred case kim kim39 husc harvard edu
jim wray yob sccsi com \( jim wray \) subject gun like ame organization ye olde bailey bbs houston , tx 713 520 1569 lines 23 reply jim wray yob sccsi com \( jim wray \) nntp posting host cs utexas edu mark wilson responding c tavares mw laws exist , penalties say , nobody ever mw prosecuted laws traded away easy pleas mw gun laws books still better nothing mw would da traded away order get guilty plea mw gun law effect liberty \? right n't even think enforcing law imposing prescribed penalty let 's hose citizens instead olx 2 2 madness takes toll please exact change ye olde bailey bbs 713 520 1569 \( v 32bis \) 713 520 9566 \( v 32bis \) houston , texas yob sccsi com home alt cosuard
jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) subject gun like american express card organization hand held products , inc lines 66 distribution usa nntp posting host dale handheld com article 93105 uicvm uic edu jason kratz u28037 uicvm uic edu writes article 1993apr15 csd newshost stanford edu , andy sail stanford edu \( andy freeman \) says shooting range gang members practicing shooting know gang members undercover cops even law abiding menacing minorities btw sneer quotes \? know area gun shop shooting range right border west side chicago gang infested area many , many bad things going area also , several friends live close area problems folks way , say minorities \? got phrasing , well , , \( ones saw \) black \? n't deny seem deny , either think minorities gangs \? far quotes concerned totally obvious n't practicing marksmanship n't know never seen anyone else practice marksmanship taking gun coat fast possible start shooting recommended way practice ccw , aim alone good defense , ca n't get gun rapidly would andy would 've obvious , outside prejudice , would made obvious \? course might knows know , live know gang bangers live long enough becomes pretty easy spot via gang colors , gang signs , etc yes , prejudice subtle north , n't \? one last thing sister social worker makes point find things \( gang signs , colors , etc \) best interest nice enough let know things watch live right border west side city enough said enough understand completely jason jim jmd handheld com i'm always rethinking 's never day n't rethought ca n't bill clinton 6 april 93 american , englishman , foreign troop landed country , never would lay arms , never never never ! william pitt , earl chatham 1708 1778 18 nov 1777
scottj magic dml georgetown edu \( john l scott \) subject luser ! organization j random misconfigured site x posted iamac 1 dml georgetown edu nntp posting host sol ctr columbia edu lines 112 awesley wrote entire point exactly claim \? 've heard eye witness descriptions tanks using main guns respond sniper fire quite effectively n't wrong 've heard descriptions 're paying attention , 've mentioned saw tanks eyes , main gun firing account heard helps people judge whether kick , use words , bullshit filters stating claimed falsehood later post another part memories damaged building burnt , rubble based remember , inclined believe old two fine , stating believe claims \( inclined see stronger statement beliefs \) claims still ludicrous , however previously awesley written also read troops using grenade launchers prompting write fire fragmentary grenades \? doubt well fire concussion grenades \? perhaps fire tear gas \? certainly would perfectly willing let us believe fired , would n't , since makes claim seem plausible awesley replied john , , strawman techniques feel 're losing stretch said knock \? read said nothing fired put nothing need help , let know take side 're scoring , 're boring mention grenade launchers \? supports notion tanks shelled buildings supports notion images troops launching fragmentary grenades ludicrous wrote tanks fired main guns detroit , people would screaming past two half decades would know awesley relied glad know 're expert nice hear authority especially appreciate basis knowledge happened , would know since authority , probably know people scream alleged massive cover number people killed detroit riot claimed 100 dead , others said 300 offical number 43 concise columbia encyclopedia says several 've also heard things wo n't dare repeat 'd assert claimed truth yes , happened would heard everybody would army tanks n't fire cannons american cities 1960 's without becoming common knowledge , without minority leaders seizing condemning , without civil libertarians saying gone far enough , yes , never hearing basis claim reasons disbelieve one poster written say , yes , lived detroit time everybody knew tanks fired shells usenet happened , somebody would remember furthermore , research failed come support claim claim extraordinary supporting evidence , extraordinary unless count couple shooting shit wrote unless also claim national guard managed cover awesley wrote taking tour riots , pretty easy tell difference army guard troops recall 26 years ago seem recall army running tanks would army cover quibble fine , army cover six years reserves taught difference also think two half decades one guilt ridden participant come forward said yes , shelled americans , gave orders fire cannons , helped cover \? wrote mind open enough believe , well , good prefer live reality reality , find hard believe tanks even shells , much less fired awesley replied given level destruction detroit , i'm quite willing believe fire guns good drop junk claiming belief fails basic reality check n't known \? awesley concludes , 've bored shit anyone whose bothered read far 've managed say n't believe account cited actually , established n't believe believe , well n't believe 's boring , yield last word , want may say anything like impunity dropping subject john l scott
scottj magic dml georgetown edu \( john l scott \) subject apology \( luser ! \) organization j random misconfigured site x posted iamac 1 dml georgetown edu nntp posting host sol ctr columbia edu lines 10 shocked see subject last rely awesley luser ! certainly intention meant leave subject line unchanged believe nntp server use columbia must put subject line protest problems header rather rude , ca n't , suppose case , n't apologize awesley apparent insult john l scott
rubinoff cs cmu edu \( robert rubinoff \) subject gritz jbs liberty lobby larouche christic insitute libertarian nntp posting host soar cs cmu edu organization school computer science , carnegie mellon lines 15 article 93105 uicvm uic edu u23590 uicvm uic edu writes note bo gritz populist party ticket david duke \( veep \) 1988 found duke leading ticket , withdrew candidacy gritz gave chance vice president us supporting duke 'd hardly call giving chance vice president us chance populist party ticket winning essentially nil still , imply n't want associated duke robert
mjp austin ibm com \( michael phelps \) subject really apples apples \? \( lawful vs unlawful use guns \) originator mjp bwa kgn ibm com reply mjp vnet ibm com \( michael j phelps \) organization ibm kingston ny lines 51 article 1993apr16 husc3 harvard edu , kim39 scws8 harvard edu \( john kim \) writes convinced right americans effective self defense , something strikes odd among pro rkba arguments presented numbers comparing hundreds thousands \( indeed , even million \) instances law abiding citizens deterring criminal activity , seem valid likewise number gun caused homicides year \( 11 , 000 year \? \) however , surprising evil empire \( darth vader breathing sound effect \) never tries compare legitimate gun defenses vs gun crimes instead , 's always legitimate gun defenses , includes cases criminals shot killed , cases criminal , vs criminal gun homicides , includes case sin victim died \? course , would n't unreasonable say crime already measured \( involving guns \) , already known safe assume gun based bank robbery last week suddenly turn gun robbery homicide whereas legitimate gun defenses , one may assume criminals deterred would committed crime serious crimes deterred think attempt show lives saved v lives lost gun related crimes n't result lives lost hand , impossible know many successful self defenses prevented lives lost words , lives lost pretty clear homicide non negligent manslaughter number , lives saved percentage successful self defenses clearly percentage n't real high show lives saved lives lost semi related point , check kleck 's point blank believe goes related areas also well written informative case kim kim39 husc harvard edu michael phelps , \( external \) mjp vnet ibm com \( internal \) mjp bwa kgn ibm com mjp \( last least disclaimer \) opinions mine
sony1 sdrc com \( rob davis \) subject insane gun toting wackos unite ! ! ! summary backcountry distribution na lines 16 fcrary ucsu colorado edu \( frank crary university colorado , boulder \) n't know animal attacks , 23 , 500 murders year 500 die manner suggest 2 1 murders killings wacko , would wrong worse , also 102 , 500 rapes 1 , 055 , 000 aggravated assaults year numbers make violent attacks , preventing , thousands times significant accidents worried stats invalid 're talking backcountry stats rapes assaults deaths represent backcountry great majority represent urban incidents pointed rob
jrutledg cs ulowell edu \( john lawrence rutledge \) subject gun control organization interactive media group university massachusetts lowell lines 146 article 1993apr16 010235 14225 mtu edu , cescript mtu edu \( charles scripter \) writes mention well regulated militia confuses according federalist paper 's , well regulated militia well defined structure follows nationally uniform regulations perhaps actually read federalist papers ! ! perhaps , reread federal 29 deals exclusively well regulated says character oblige great body , classes citizens , arms purpose going military exercises evolutions , often might necessary acquire degree perfection would character well regulated militia , also talks well regulated militia nationally uniform structure note quote end particular paragraph states little reasonably aimed , respect people large , properly armed equipped order see neglected , necessary assemble twice course year , knew much organization required training large group poeple twice year try get people every year , provide basic training new people integrated force , find suitable location , requires continually standing committee organizers since well regulate militia nationally uniform structure , meet twice year train , claim well regulated militia well organized well organized militia necessarily well regulated militia several people stated well organized militia defined 10 usc 311 , states militia united states consists able males least 17 years age , except provided section 313 title 32 , 45 years age , made declaration intention become , citizens united states female united states commissioned officers national guard define militia , adjective well regulated 10 usc 311 define well militia way , shape , form defines become part well regulated militia federalist papers clearly define well militia proper subset militia paragraph quoted , talk militia united states fit character well regulated militia paragraph states associated costs would form annual deduction productive labor country , amount , calculating upon present numbers people , would fall far short whole expense civil establishments states attempt thing would mass labor industry considerable extent , would unwise experiment , made , could succeed , would long endured another quote provide charles scripter james madison , federalist paper 41 \( regarding general welfare clause \) nothing natural common first use general phrase , explain qualify recital particulars phrase right people keep bear arms , shall infringed must either qualify explain phrase well regulated militia , necessary security free state definition explain stated american dictionary language new college edition , 1982 1 \) make plain remove undertook explain puzzle 2 \) define expound explained plan 3 \) offer reasons cause answer for' justify explain error second phrase clearly explain first , therefore second phrase must qualify first definition given qualify 1 \) describe enumerating characteristics qualities characterize 2 \) make competent suitable office , position , task 3 \) give legal power make legally capable 4 \) modify , limit , restrict , giving exceptions 5 \) make less harsh severe moderate 6 \) grammar modify meaning \( word phrase \) since right people keep bear arms , shall infringed describe , modify make less harsh anything nothing grammar sort position task process elimination must fall definition 3 since 3 deals legal power , thing constitution , must correct definition case therefore , right people keep bear arms gives legal power well militia legal power shall infringed thank much mr scripter , provided evidence second amendment concerns people 's right form well regulate militia , says little right untrained person keep bear 50 caliber machine gun since , totally untrained use firearm \( something meant correct going nra gun safety course joining gun club \) , cannot legally buy machine gun , conclude courts elected congress agree know category mr rutledge means destroy liberties rights mean liberties rights participate discussion exactly rights \? force version liberties rights begining statements liberties rights second amendment clearly states using expressions , states , clearly mean intend force views others \? n't think effort force views liberties rights , state nothing written , write , matter liberties rights final word one person among many final word liberties rights belongs many modern document , john lawrence rutledge smart index hyper links stretching research assistant world data net terribly frustrating flip back forth interactive media group pages crude flat illustrations computer science department never even moved animated umass lowell arrows zoom ins completely lacked 1 university ave sound lowell , 01854 problem new words normal text 'd \( 508 \) 934 touch unfamiliar word definition jrutledg cs ulowell edu would pop david 's earth
ernie ferris \( ernest smith \) subject handgun restrictions originator ernie ferris lines 24 nntp posting host ferris cray com organization cray research , inc distribution usa bbs tsoft net subject handgun restrictions newsgroups talk politics guns reply tsoft net organization cray research , inc cc bcc article tsoft net write would like know restrictions purchasing handguns \( ie waiting periods , background check etc \) states nevada oregon thanks bill bill anderson \( bbs tsoft net \) oregon must get background check \( ie , full slap \) , 15 day waiting period unless ccw meet ernie smith ernie oregon cray com
crphilli hound dazixca ingr com \( ron phillips \) subject armed citizen april '93 nntp posting host hound reply crphilli hound dazixca ingr com organization intergraph electronics , mountain view , ca distribution usa lines 30 article 1993apr13 lds loral com , kendall lds loral com \( colin kendall \) writes article 1993apr5 dazixco ingr com crphilli hound dazixca ingr com writes armed citizen mere presence firearm , without shot fired , prevents crime many instances , shown news reports sent armed citizen perhaps , note accounts cited , one shot fired twelve , five described cases assailant wounded shot , six described cases assailant killed shot , citizens accepted moral responsibility protect lives , could well least 13 innocent victims lying dead several criminals still walking streets crimes others ron phillips crphilli hound dazixca ingr com senior customer engineer intergraph electronics 381 east evelyn avenue voice \( 415 \) 691 6473 mountain view , ca 94041 fax \( 415 \) 691 0350
graham cs washington edu \( stephen graham \) subject gun control organization computer science engineering , u washington , seattle article transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) writes article 1993apr14 beaver cs washington edu , graham cs washington edu \( stephen graham \) writes article b12 transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) writes far john q public gun , supreme court already ruled cases us v miller \( 307 u 175 \( 1939 \) \) , us v \( 110 ct 1839 \( 1990 \) \) exactly amendment protects interpretation found far back scott case , 's worth noting us vs miller sustained miller 's conviction possession illegal firearm , noting sawed shotgun proper militia weapon , noted one claimed proper militia weapon \( despite used least two wars \) true , since neither miller lawyer appeared court sustain miller 's conviction \? n't text case handy yes , shotguns used wwi , spanish american war , us civil war question possession sawed shotgun , e , weapon altered improve therefore , us vs miller supports limited government regulation firearms n't go arguing road unless willing abide consequences find end mainly , law abiding common man right weapon militia purpose , handguns sawed shotguns fully automatic weapons , fact , decision says free produce evidence i'm willing abide implications n't whole heartedly endorse nra position mean oppose rkba attitude makes nra unpopular stephen graham graham cs washington edu uw beaver ! june ! graham
ritvax isc rit edu \( fred \) subject luser ! nntp posting host vaxc isc rit edu reply ritvax isc rit edu organization rochester institute technology actually , established n't believe believe , well n't believe 's boring , yield last word , want may say anything like impunity dropping subject john l scott kind !
bjones convex com \( brad jones \) subject guns backcountry \? thanks nntp posting host neptune convex com organization engineering , convex computer corp , richardson , tx , usa x disclaimer message written user convex computer corp opinions expressed user necessarily convex lines 27 article s9i usenet ins cwru edu , cleveland freenet edu \( john k \) writes anybody reading group actual , honest god experience violent crime backcountry tell \? around 1969 valley near woodstock , virginia , wife , friend , wife , 2 kids hiking totally desolate mountain area sudden , large rocks began raining us looking , saw least 3 letting loose rocks obvious couple hundred feet us meanwhile , women kids screaming running cover laughter friend yelled knock responded get f ed ! friend drew pistols fired couple times trees heads ran 3 5 pound rocks coming heads , proceeded journey sorry , friend saw need let evolve violent level already experiencing guess tried harder understand cope anger society driving things guess 's cross 'll bear brad
yoony aix rpi edu \( young hoon yoon \) subject gun talk legislative update states keywords gun talk , ila nntp posting host aix rpi edu distribution usa lines 27 viking iastate edu \( dan sorenson \) writes lvc cbnews cb att com \( larry cipriani \) writes iowa firearm related bills dead senate file 303 dealing duty police officers carrying concealed remains viable power word processor stamp work fact around state rep generally lives nine miles constituent n't hurt , either dan sorenson , dod 1066 z1dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu censors read , say n't blame usenet post exotic , distant machines meet exciting , unusual people flame anyone know particulars senate file 303 \? bill allow deny duty police carrying concealed \? information , iowa discretionary permit policy ccw 303 allows police \( duty \) carry concealed would inclined oppose n't believe duty police officers rights civilians law policy prevents law abiding citizens armed self defense duty police officer treated differently
clay rsd dl nec com \( clay finley \) subject carrying arms nntp posting host rsd dl nec com organization nec america , radio software dept distribution usa lines 22 article 1993apr5 6800 spdc ti com epcot spdc ti com \( dan white \) writes however , n't already lost right bear arms \? seems states , like texas , citizen may gun carry home business citizen severely restricted bearing outside areas texas cannot carry car except traveling usually defined traveling across county line come \? court rulings legality restricting carrying weapon outside home \? texas , legal carry handguns traveling , also sporting activities chapter 46 texas state penal code restrict long guns therefore , legal carry transport long guns place texas regards , clay
mikey ccwf cc utexas edu \( strider \) subject batf fbi murders almost everyone waco today ! 4 19 organization university texas austin , austin tx lines 18 distribution world nntp posting host louie cc utexas edu jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) writes towing party line , thank ! jim 're welcome ! \) actually , i'm probably something , 've committed ultimate college student heresy i'm liberal \( liberal bashing \) mike , thine r e r mikey ccwf cc utexas edu self true polonius would sacrifice essential liberties little temporary safety deserve neither liberty safety b franklin
34aej7d cmuvm bitnet followups talk politics guns subject atf burns dividian ranch update distribution usa 1993apr19 msuvx2 memst edu lines 11 ah yes , see liberal weenies come woodwork defend burning children probably drooled watching tv coverage probably like nazi germany , well oh yeah , atf fbi claims , according media , survivors number seems vary minute minute
34aej7d cmuvm bitnet subject 's next \? mormons jews \? distribution world lines 4 minor point interest , earlier news reports claim quoting governor texas holiness referred dividians mormons called expulsion tx texans details \?
tomgift uxa cso uiuc edu \( tom gift \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization university illinois urbana lines 28 steiner jupiter cse utoledo edu \( jason 'think ! ' steiner \) writes ever hear electric ovens microwaves \? popular electric stoves outside metro areas especially oh , see electricity natural right wonderful government would never cut power people really dumb , acting like sake argument \? jason , n't electrical power , , n't find idea davidians calmly cooking lunch gas masks fbi knocks buildings credible , either 's like whole discussion relevant started one made wholly unsubstantiated allegation wood stove ig napalm fbi shot buildings i'm feds , far wild ac like ridiculous obfuscate legitimate criticism conduct whole affair tom gift tomgift uxa cso uiuc edu
dduff col hp com \( dave duff \) subject atf burns dividian ranch update organization hp colorado springs division lines 3 distribution usa nntp posting host fajita19 cs itc hp com nut case panics ! ! ! ! realizes he's made complete fool front thousands netters ! ! ! ! backs away earlier rash statements ! ! ! ! god mercy ! ! ! !
diederic spot colorado edu \( andrew diederich \) subject ax atf nntp posting host spot colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder distribution usa lines 19 comments atf 's botched handling case dan another one n't heard leader 's \? leader assult goes looks objective see anything changed would affect mission even freshman know mostly know part lie cold ground hour , 've heard maybe atf hired local guys ! andrew diederich diederic spot colorado edu opinions mine alternate tuesdays
gs26 prism gatech edu \( glenn r stone \) subject impeach clinton , reno summary civil rights violations keywords confession tv reply glenns eas gatech edu organization group w bench lines 21 fact janet reno bill clinton admitted responsibility , even grief , deaths waco fact regardless started fire , enough things tape make civil rights case two cruel unusual punishment \( dying tortured rabbits tape \? \) come mind fact federal felony infringe civil rights color law death involved , offense carries penalty life prison fact impeachment allowable high crimes anything 's federal felony qualify conclusion choice , honest people , impeach mr clinton , remove reno office glenn r stone \( glenns eas gatech edu \) asbestos
mikey ccwf cc utexas edu \( strider \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization university texas austin , austin tx lines 24 distribution world nntp posting host louie cc utexas edu cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) writes mfrhein wpi wpi edu \( michael frederick rhein \) writes someone else pointed , would stove use warm day texas eat food cold \? thank pointing obvious people clearly missed ca n't stand people 's first reaction defend aggressor mr tavares , unique thoughtful way getting heart matter , thank putting good use mike ruff , thine r e r mikey ccwf cc utexas edu self true polonius would sacrifice essential liberties little temporary safety deserve neither liberty safety b franklin
mikey ccwf cc utexas edu \( strider \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization university texas austin , austin tx lines 31 nntp posting host louie cc utexas edu irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \( brent irvine \) writes glenns eas gatech edu writes hey , gang , 's duck hunting , dark alleys , 's black clad , booted troops storming houses violating civil rights color law ready defend constitution \? also crazy fatigue clad types blasting snot people accidentally stray onto land name 'self defense ' well , count least 86 dead government action many killed last year manner described \? , facts \? oh , silly forgot , n't like guns , n't need facts n't get self righteous , mr gun n't get smug , mr gun hater mike ruff , thine r e r mikey ccwf cc utexas edu self true polonius would sacrifice essential liberties little temporary safety deserve neither liberty safety b franklin
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject 's next \? mormons jews \? organization stratus computer , inc lines 13 distribution world nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article 93110 cmuvm bitnet , 34aej7d cmuvm bitnet writes minor point interest , earlier news reports claim quoting governor texas holiness referred dividians mormons called expulsion tx texans details \? davidians 60 year old splinter seventh day adventists , 's information looking cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization stratus computer , inc lines 33 distribution world nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article news cso uiuc edu , tomgift uxa cso uiuc edu \( tom gift \) writes , n't electrical power , , n't find idea davidians calmly cooking lunch gas masks fbi knocks buildings credible , either n't know quickly get woodstove heat cold start , mine takes three hours 's like whole discussion relevant started one made wholly unsubstantiated allegation wood stove ig napalm fbi shot buildings mox nix bd 's prepared provide heat light , weeks power means compound contained containers flammable liquids gases \( could busted tank intrusion \) , plus ignition sources , one tell sure time i'm feds , far wild ac like ridiculous obfuscate legitimate criticism conduct whole affair contrary proposing alternate scenarios people coming wild conclusions feds , absolutely positive fire started , even though none position see , either \( stories hear prisoners changes hourly \) cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
syck5280 miller cs uwm edu \( steven b syck \) subject wi il firearms law questions organization university wisconsin , milwaukee lines 39 nntp posting host 129 89 9 13 couple questions firearms law experts question 1 according nra ila state firearms , wisconsin person except peace officer go armed concealed dangerous weapon statutory provision obtaining permit carry concealed weapon ' jury instructions indicate 'to go one must firearm one 's person within immediate control available use mean open carry allowed \? , 'open' \? would pants holster considered concealing \? one jacket partially covered weapon \? also , way allowed carry concealed , allowed , period \? question 2 understand , evanston , il , ordinance banning handguns way get around provision \? would penalty found \? used said handgun defensive shooting apartment \? would city law apply impending trial shooting \? also , il state law concerning short barreled weapons \? short barreled shotgun would interested handgun available , either shortened 9mm carbine \( ie colt , marlin \) one thing , chance getting ccw permit il without rich famous related mayor \? please send replies via e mail , things seem around p g little faster handle thanks steve syck syck5280 miller cs uwm edu
mikey ccwf cc utexas edu \( strider \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization university texas austin , austin tx lines 28 nntp posting host louie cc utexas edu irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \( brent irvine \) writes cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) writes mfrhein wpi wpi edu \( michael frederick rhein \) writes someone else pointed , would stove use warm day texas eat food cold \? ever hear electric ovens microwaves \? popular electric stoves outside metro areas especially hey , einstein , ever tried use electric stove microwave without electricity \? 's shut weeks , courtesy local fbi assault squad , going put foot mouth shall get assist \? mike ruff , thine r e r mikey ccwf cc utexas edu self true polonius would sacrifice essential liberties little temporary safety deserve neither liberty safety b franklin
mikey ccwf cc utexas edu \( strider \) subject guns gone good riddance ! organization university texas austin , austin tx lines 22 distribution world nntp posting host louie cc utexas edu cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) writes jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes surrender arms soon enough , officers around collect resistance useless n't tell 're borg warner , right \? hee , hee chuckle absolutely fabulous nearly fell chair laughing wonderful ! mr tavares , hat ! mike ruff , thine r e r mikey ccwf cc utexas edu self true polonius would sacrifice essential liberties little temporary safety deserve neither liberty safety b franklin
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject batf fbi murders almost everyone waco today ! 4 19 organization stratus computer , inc lines 14 distribution world nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article dc news udel edu , roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) writes please tell think would happened people come hands several weeks ago answer question top \? suggestion cameras panning planted automatic weapons , followed show trial around valiant forces lawn order \? cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
fcrary ucsu colorado edu \( frank crary \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! nntp posting host ucsu colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 22 article 1993apr20 886 batman bmd trw com auerbach batman bmd trw com writes women stand right stupid men new attorney general seems determined past days said hopes king beating reduce public law enforcement tactics using tear gas driving tanks walls waco intended peacefull solution crisis tactics intended prevent mass suicide , never expected sect react killing 's comforting know , least , n't clinton 's first choice frank crary cu boulder
cash convex com \( peter cash \) subject raid justification blast next time distribution usa nntp posting host zeppelin convex com organization x disclaimer message written user convex computer corp opinions expressed user necessarily convex lines 27 article pandora sdsu edu chiu io nosc mil \( francis chiu \) writes initial assault compound \( like wooden farm house burned ground like \) \? regardless started caused fire , none would happened atf honestly justify initial assault handled properly ! got listening 10 o'clock news channel 4 dallas list justifications produced atf months investigation raid could n't believe junk list ! example , bds accused stockpiling bunch 9mm 223 ammunition used m15 assault rifles imagine ammunition ! also aluminum dust ! \( yeah , 's component , far n't heard 's illegal take aluminum lawn furniture \) thing list could conceivably illegal 79 grenade launcher \( anybody know \? \) months investigation ! 80 people died ! die welt ist alles , ist peter cash \( apologies ludwig wittgenstein \) cash convex com
yodicet gtewd mtv gtegsc com subject atf burns dividian ranch update distribution usa organization gte govt systems , electronics def div lines 12 article 93110 cmuvm bitnet , 34aej7d cmuvm bitnet writes ah yes , see liberal weenies come woodwork defend burning children probably drooled watching tv coverage probably like nazi germany , well oh yeah , atf fbi claims , according media , survivors number seems vary minute minute
green plains nodak edu \( bill green \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! article ns1 c5tenu 112f organization north dakota higher education computing network lines 23 nntp posting host plains nodak edu shed light fire , widely reported \( ap , etc \) several witnesses bd folks starting fires also reported fires broke several places , rules bradley knocking lamp , etc cause would like see serious discussion incident believe moves made right proper , still problems tactics watching abc special tonight , well cnn nightline , question atf fbi actions 1 \) could possible taken koresh outside compound time feb 28th raid \? 2 \) could wait resulted different outcome 3 \) fbi actions \( blaring loudspeakers , etc \) right course action \? questions like said , believe actions taken , general , proper still reservations one point , i'm fan janet reno , like way balls go ahead take full responsibility seems like waffle boy problems figuring stood issue
whale st usm edu \( donald r newcomb \) subject gun control nntp posting host whale st usm edu organization university southern mississippi lines 145 first , would like say much appreciate literate individual mr rutledge discuss topic frankly , anti rkba posters refuse even approach topic original understanding bill rights detailed writings era refreshing second , must apologize leaving discussion several days brigade 's quarterly drill weekend needed attend several matters pertaining state militia people seem feel concept militia place 20th century i'm sure swiss would agree think perhaps discussion militia , organized unorganized , fits defense plans state , mississippi please assume describes something peculiar one southern state instance , commonwealth massachusetts well organized militia , members report , maintains stocks riot guns machine guns laws states vary probably similar title 35 mississippi code defines militia able citizens state ages \( 17 \) sixty two \( 62 \) years militia divided 3 classes national guard , mississippi state guard unorganized militia national guard strange sort fish constitutional perspective tries state militia federal reserve discussion para constitutional arrangement quite interesting somewhat beyond scope discussion suffice , date , national guard ceased constitutional standing anything federal reserve force mississippi , states , maintains purely state organized militia mississippi called state guard states may called something else state guard exists cadre training corps made mostly experienced officers senior serve volunteers without compensation drill monthly basis company battalion level , brigade quarter annual drill whole organization state authorized cadre strength 694 skeleton organization without flesh muscle needed come unorganized militia time invasion , insurrection calamity governor order activation state guard takes place call first made volunteers fill organization either contingency strength 2194 full strength event sufficient number people fail volunteer , law provides detailed instructions conducting draft unorganized militia size state guard specified law , rather executive order one time , organized militia mississippi consisted 68 needless say , state weapons equip force historical precedent arming force use mostly private arms militiamen hope demonstrates state militias far long dead anachronisms may wish claim , simple stated people right join well organized militia also stated militia meets twice year clearly well organized state readiness claimed people right , state readiness expected militia stated hamilton regarding hamilton take hamilton 's opinion sole representative opinions founding fathers , chosen highly skewed sample set hamilton extreme federalist end political spectrum others , henry , chosen represent end many contemporaries felt idea standing army sort even select militia train bands contrary egalitarian nature govern ment striving perfect compromise reached provide small army , every two years , iron clad protection militia , remain ever , terrible protections included state control , federal limitation federal utilization militia \( e execute laws , suppress repel invasions \) , right keep bear arms prevent british tried lexington limitations eventually proved federal govern ment creation national guard national guard created one simple reason constitutional militia proved unreliable fighting wars imperial expansion \( e g spanish american war \) constitution provided militia could employed federal government limited purposes far back war , militia units refused leave united states territory attack enemy , constitutional authorization conscription anyone federal military militiamen particularly protected wars ww every american left country arms volunteer national guard acts 1903 1916 required new member also army , existing soldiers least one individuals refused go france 1918 refusal upheld federal courts mr rutledge stated second amendment applies members well organized militia however , pre constitutional history american militia shows relatively periods militia came close meeting either rutledge hamilton 's definition well organized period peace french indian war revolution many companies simply stopped drilling prior revolution perhaps mr rutledge would care argue ancestors answered lexington alarm rights units n't drill years would bold , wish repeat national guard , merits , militia described constitution mr hamilton mr henry mr fact federal government many states organizing constitutional militias diminishes neither responsibilities rights militia detailed constitution misunderstanding nature purpose militia one error crept modern readings constitution constitution prohibits states keeping troops ships war time peace heard insist prevents states maintaining militia , comes people today understand meanings words 18th century usage today call large vessel ship 18th century word described particular kind vessel ship large vessel three carrying square rigged sails two contemporary usage states prohibited keeping largest warships day , capable global operations today 's equivalent might prohibition states' keeping nuclear missiles troops time meant full time professional military organization study writings bear least one respect , agreement mr rutledge personally involved maintenance advancement militia viable means defense modern society , frequently saddened friends associates wax poetic place unorganized militia become strangely silent scarce invited attend drill state 's militia donald r newcomb university southern mississippi whale st usm edu way tax spend , tax falcon st usm edu spend 're democrats office
fcrary ucsu colorado edu \( frank crary \) subject riddle nntp posting host ucsu colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder distribution usa lines 12 article 1993apr20 050550 4660 jupiter sun csd unb ca j979 jupiter sun csd unb ca \( fuller \) writes gas harmful , sensitive , caring janet reno described \? \? far know , tear gas , especially large concentrations , dangerous \( even toxic \) small children makes fbi 's safety children seem rather hypocritical frank crary cu boulder
roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) subject batf fbi murders almost everyone waco today ! 4 19 nntp posting host chopin udel edu organization university delaware lines 90 article clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) writes article c5sou8 lnb news udel edu roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) writes article 1993apr20 163730 16128 guinness idbsu edu betz gozer idbsu edu \( andrew betz \) writes article c5rynw iz8 news udel edu roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) writes suppose fbi also prevented coming hands national tv cameras watch watch \? two miles away \? far enough away whatever really happenned must explained vengeful filter humiliated agency said \( quote ! \) enough enough please tell think would happened people come hands several weeks ago n't happen responsible happening \? certainly children koresh calling shots talking lawyer fbi since others released safely , sane reason keeping children inside compound scenario simplest plausible generally believe conspiracy theories involve complicated unlikely scenarios fbi sent letters martin luther king 's wife insinuating mlk affair ! , please tell us exactly much trust supposedly benevolent government someone would release children compound obviously authority worshiper koresh worshiper \? e , david koresh vernon howell jesus christ saw lengthy excerpts australian documentary made 1992 clearly showed cult give camera , time , present excerpts show cult leader guarenteed thanks laugh day ! definitely silly supposition least view whole documentary claim source would could news show showed lengthy excerpts also interviews made documentary basically confirmed shown excerpts time spent compound 1992 pleased batf handling affair think bungled badly start n't think responsible fire , started two different places two places , eh \? saw \? wonderful fbi tell \? saw one place believe reported local radio reporters site fire started three story tower time two story window shown tv coverage batf means devoid fault handling affair suggest may intentionally started fire ludicrous suspect plenty camerapeople willing risk small arms fire get good footage people told get hell camera range \? could n't answer one , eh \? important question , root cause suspicion thought mentioning reagan military treated press grenada set precedent , decided n't worthy discussion news reporter got shot , bet family would sue government letting danger area root cause suspicion mind 100 people would n't flee building numerous exits 30 minutes time took burn n't flee hours earlier tear gas first introduced \? find rational explanation behavior
jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) subject cold war really \? organization hand held products , inc lines 28 distribution world nntp posting host dale handheld com article 1993apr20 9235 linus mitre org glover mitre org \( graham k glover \) writes one reasons united states america one time represented protected freedom individual liberty personal responsibility \( , fact , think true \) totalitarianism absolute government control tyranny represents freedom 's opposite \( \) , usa really win cold war \? course usa 's hope \( ever spell \) fail referendum , hard liners take standard disclaimers always apply ! graham k glover jmd handheld com i'm always rethinking 's never day n't rethought ca n't bill clinton 6 april 93 american , englishman , foreign troop landed country , never would lay arms , never never never ! william pitt , earl chatham 1708 1778 18 nov 1777
fcrary ucsu colorado edu \( frank crary \) subject riddle nntp posting host ucsu colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder distribution usa lines 16 article mojo eng umd edu chuck eng umd edu \( chuck harris wa3uqv \) writes , cs often employed tunnels vietnam \? cs tear gas used vietnam makes hard stomach comes thru throat well , quite bad , ca n't really much defend blowing cookies think bz gas , cs cn bz gas exposure results projectile vomiting , loss essentially muscle control , inability concentrate think rationally fatal reactions significant fraction population reason use limited military applications frank crary cu boulder
roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) subject batf fbi murders almost everyone waco today ! 4 19 nntp posting host chopin udel edu organization university delaware lines 97 article clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) writes article news udel edu roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) writes article 1r0qsrinnc61 clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) writes article c5s0ds j54 news udel edu roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) writes agree deserved trial 40 days come get trial chose keep children stay inside chose stay inside even tear gassed find actions rational even noriega smart enough give go trial deserved mr roby , government sucking heartless bastard unworthy comment apparently true opinion , , course , opinion truth see \) humans died yesterday , humans would died fbi taken actions undeniable truth cried would died come hands empty undeniable truth , possible fbi planned happen , gunfire heard fbi keeping folks inside i'm proposing way went , point 's undeniable walked yesterday , would alive today believe wish undeniable , however , people left compound unharmed alive standoff since leader preaching would apocalypse , say would n't mass suicide fbi simply stayed outside waited another 51 days heart bleeds much children never released given 51 days ample opportunities heart also bleeds people blinded religious devotion common sense leave compound tanks came started dropping tear gas early morning heart bleeds one bleeding heart i'm sure beyond possible doubt feel people say heartless things said heartless bleeding heart \? making sense seem concern someone would keep children inside compound 51 days let sounds pretty heartless heard news survivors regret n't stayed inferno prove loyalty koresh makes sad sick seem say got deserved think however , set fire \( started one place spread quickly \) , got wanted put motion got wanted kind creature believe \? ever heard jonestown \? sad thing people inside compound authority worshipers authority koresh howell people able think , would likely lot survivors today koresh preached fiery apocalypse early last year see batf going investigated justice dept likely arlen spectre congress good bungled affair start agree lets god , fbi , investigated , means , fbi investigated , btw , thought second ammendment god \) jim jmd handheld com
fontenot ravl rice edu \( dwayne jacques fontenot \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization rice university lines 25 c5tenu 112f ns1 nodak edu green plains nodak edu \( bill green \) writes shed light fire , widely reported \( ap , etc \) several witnesses bd folks starting fires also reported fires broke several places , rules bradley knocking lamp , etc cause consider bds one lamp tanks made one hole building anyone else notice video appeared wherever smoke coming building , tank nearby \? fact appears fires started several places rule anything also , several witnesses \? way heard \( fbi spokesman cnn \) witnesses people driving tanks one point , i'm fan janet reno , like way balls go ahead take full responsibility seems like waffle boy problems figuring stood issue bad nothing happen fbi media done job well dwayne jacques fontenot
phz cadence com \( pete \) subject gun control nntp posting host cadence com organization cadence design systems , inc lines 24 article 1993apr16 010235 14225 mtu edu cescript mtu edu \( charles scripter \) writes n't even get capitalization correct ! try reading usca constitution , get correct version constitution really stupid nitpicking capitalization rules late 18th century quite different today , posted matches current capitalization rules also n't make 's' look like things done late hundreds original constitution , militia , arms , etc capitalized simply also done currently german special significance words simply capitalized capitalization denotes special emphasis pete \( phz cadence com ! uunet ! cadence ! phz \) aries \( mar 21 apr 19 \) pioneer type hold people contempt quick tempered , impatient , advice nice
viking iastate edu \( dan sorenson \) subject batf fbi murders almost everyone waco today ! 4 19 organization iowa state university , ames ia lines 44 c5rynw iz8 news udel edu roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) writes suppose fbi also prevented coming hands national tv cameras watch would come knew national tv cameras well mile away , yet agents guns yards away \? contact lawyer , inclined believe idea situation actually also leads conspiracy theory lawyer batf pinned rights violations bd 's acted witnesses , hence arson doubt one , still quite clear leaving safe place surrender rather stupid thing place longer safe disbelieve everything fbi says \? matter course , given 've allowed views heard 'll reserve judgement trial , far fbi concerned statements carry amount weight photons rest batf means devoid fault handling affair suggest may intentionally started fire ludicrous ludicrous , yes possible , yes plausible \? get jury fire set accident people outside compound , would expected far cult members flee compound least come shooting 's gets likely cult members holed enforced place inside building decent arson attempt suspect many could trapped addition , introduction cs gas several hours would rendered many unconscious masks quit props , proving scene played difficult certainty fbi batf witnesses dan sorenson , dod 1066 z1dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu censors read , say n't blame usenet post exotic , distant machines meet exciting , unusual people flame
subject proper gun control \? proper gun cont kim39 scws8 harvard edu \( john kim \) organization harvard university science center nntp posting host scws8 harvard edu lines 17 article 34j ssd intel com hays ssd intel com \( kirk hays \) writes 'd like point error terminator began posting six months purchased first firearm , according private email ca n't produce archived posting earlier january 1992 , purchased first firearm march 1992 guess seemed like years kirk hays nra life , seventh generation first read consulted rec guns summer 1991 purchased first firearm early march year lack desire firearm , understand could purchased rifle shotgun n't want one case kim
subject cop kills teenager kim39 scws8 harvard edu \( john kim \) organization harvard university science center keywords handgun mace pepper spray taser tasp phaser nntp posting host scws8 harvard edu lines 43 acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu \( douglas craig holland \) writes suspended police officer arrested revenge triple homicide providence , r \( ap \) police officer afraid would fired allegedly assaulting teen walked auto body shop youth worked , said 're going die fatally shot two others , police said fourth youth wounded fifth escaped injury hiding car suspended police officer robert , 23 , cranston , arrested gunpoint three hours shooting wilson 's auto enterprises foster , rural town 4 , 000 people northwest rhode island doug holland think updated info former officer cranston approached teenager questioned another officer officer cranston struck teenager head heavy police flashlight , causing significant , though life threatening evidence teenager anything threatening time teenager released bail filed formal complaint officer cranston police chief suspended cranston pending investigation use excessive force pretty clear seems happened chief requested cranston 's gun , cranston refused turn chief went cranston 's home get sources said cranston always wanted cop afraid loosing job complaint days afterward , cranston allegedly walked wilson 's garage , teenager friends known hang work cars hobby cranston fatally shot teenager well teenagers b c teenager shot shoulder chest teenager e working car noticed officer cranston teenager went home summoned police , went wilson 's garage found 3 corpses one survivor days arrest , officer cranston commit suicide cell case kim
mort hpfcso fc hp com \( jeff \) subject knew would happen organization hewlett packard , fort collins , co , usa lines 19 talk politics guns , jagst18 pitt edu \( josh grossman \) writes well josh agree respect less spelling errors always must win ! even kill every man women child god must win costs happens country lets make excuses , get worthless press cover everything , let officials take heat top management stupidity etc etc sick entire well nation constitution claims protect later , josh later
ron hpfcso fc hp com \( ron miller \) subject boston gun buy back organization hewlett packard , fort collins , co , usa lines 18 gun denver buy back , trading guns denver tickets pretty much bust guns turned news tried hype best could including loaded 38 well , get picture side note news also reported guns would checked whether stolen stolen guns returned owners ! ! ! ! ! \( say \) \( anything rally capital steps yesterday support rkba \? \? \? \? \) even rally made 5 pm news 3 channels \) ron miller
ron hpfcso fc hp com \( ron miller \) subject waco , \( masada \) organization hewlett packard , fort collins , co , usa lines 8 flaming wreckage wrote congressmen strongly worded letters demanding dissolve batf perhaps anger grief help spur letter writing campaign \? ron miller
roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) subject batf fbi murders almost everyone waco today ! 4 19 nntp posting host chopin udel edu organization university delaware lines 85 article transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) writes article il news udel edu , roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) writes article transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) writes article c5s0ds j54 news udel edu , roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) writes original question started fire whether madmen inside outside compound replied possible sanity level inside outside argument well , n't make well started questionable premise fire necessarily act insanity , rather act negligence accident recall , one survivor claims fire started tank knocked kerosene lamp kind makes arguments regarding relative sanity somewhat moot , \? another survivor claims heard someone shouting fire 's started ! odd terminology 's one says know fire planned , one occurs accident wait see evidence shows , assuming one willing believe evidence offered ones according australian documentary made year stand began , koresh followers believed christ koresh sex children women married men compound perfect children resulting great seed magnified horn ex members describe ways dissimilar way jim jones described point noted submitted faith sex life batf clearance \? better hurry believe deadline april 15 paid taxes reference sex religion form comments meant address might unstable enough keep children building tear gas start fire nice evasive maneuver , mr , 're still tail let ask plainly complaints david koresh 's religious sexual justified armed raid bureau alcohol , tobacco , firearms \? neither merely addressing sanity level players agree batf handled affair badly day one btw , heard news today behind knock warrant unsealed today grenade launcher thing list found unusual two nine escaped compound said fire deliberately set cult members , talk news reporters directly , relate details , believe \? believe \? wo n't even recognize neither anyone else n't know personally believe would put national tv cameras \? 's entirely far fetched nobody outside compound would know everybody inside compound n't forget , batf admits agents inside compound , case ambitious news reporters could use documentary filmed australian 1992 compound grounds help identify survivors , one , check stories consistency learned long news story documentary point , getting conflicting reports survivors best wait til light shed upon course , good believe eternal darkness i'm simply devil 's advocate 's reasonable doubt standing way anybody totally swallowing official government story waco certainly room doubt certainly reserve right change opinions new evidence warrants change minded , however , would never able change mind , evidence disliked would lie fabricated ones
mhamilto nimitz mcs kent edu \( lawnmowerman \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! keywords nata thing ! ! nntp posting host nimitz mcs kent edu reply matthew hamilton organization kent state university cs lines 33 article 4t transfer stratus com , cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) writes article 1993apr20 143255 12711 mcs kent edu , mhamilto nimitz mcs kent edu \( lawnmowerman \) writes oh , , guess shooting kind babies right sick bastard cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet thanks reply post way , never , never ever said right shoot kind babies however branch davidian people insisted staying savior \( yeah right budy boy \) brain washed believing ever says truth , even means give lives cause therefore davids fault atf 's gave 50 51 days get , 50 days many many rest u however sad hear death child unlike sick bastard supposedly matthew r hamilton mhamilto mcs kent edu k cs physics major ksuvxb kent edu \( lawnmowerman \) kent state university ksuvxb kent edu look future advice quotes sayings
ndallen r node hub org \( nigel allen \) subject waco clinton press conference , part 1 organization r node public access unix 1 416 249 5366 lines 282 press release white house president clinton 's remarks waco q national desk contact white house office press secretary , 202 456 2100 washington , april 20 following remarks president clinton question answer session press 1 36 p edt president february 28th , four federal agents killed line duty trying enforce law branch davidian compound , illegally stockpiled weaponry ammunition , placed innocent children risk batf operation failed meet objective , 51 day standoff ensued federal bureau investigation made every reasonable effort bring perilous situation end without bloodshed loss life bureau 's efforts ultimately individual dealing , david koresh , dangerous , irrational , probably insane engaged numerous activities violated federal law common standards decency , moreover , responsible deaths injuries occurred action compound february given inclination towards violence effort protect young hostages , provocative actions taken seven weeks federal agents compound weekend briefed attorney general reno operation prepared fbi , designed increase pressure koresh persuade compound surrender peacefully plan included decision withhold use ammunition , even face fire , instead use tear gas would cause permanent harm health , would , hoped , force people compound come outside surrender informed plan end siege discussed attorney general reno asked questions thought appropriate ask told thought right , take full responsibility implementation decision yesterday 's action ended horrible human tragedy mr koresh 's response demands surrender federal agents destroy murder children captives , well people survive killed controlled , bears ultimate responsibility carnage ensued must review past eye towards future directed united stated departments justice treasury undertake vigorous thorough investigation uncover happened , whether anything could differently told departments involve independent professional law enforcement officials investigation expect receive analysis answers whatever time required complete review finally , directed departments cooperate fully congressional inquiries continue fully accountable american people want express appreciation attorney general , justice department , federal agents front lines best job could deeply difficult circumstances , want say yesterday , sorry loss life occurred beginning end tragedy waco hope much others tempted join cults become involved people like david koresh deterred horrible scenes seen last seven weeks hope much difficult situations federal agents confronted doubtless required confront contexts future somewhat better handled better understood learned q mr president , , first , tell us , 51 days , decided q mr president , describe us janet reno outlined 15 minute phone conversation president ca n't hear one go first q sorry describe janet reno q mr president president 'll answer questions , ca n't q describe told sunday nature operation much detail knew \? president yes told attorney general fbi strongly felt time come take another step trying people compound described generally operation would wanted go use tear gas tested cause permanent damage adults children , would make difficult people stay inside building hoped tear gas would permit come outside told circumstances would people fire shots even fired upon going shoot tear gas armored vehicles would protect would exchange fire fact , know , awful lot shots fired cult members federal officials shots coming back government side asked number questions first question asked , \? waited seven weeks \? reasons given following number one , limit long federal authorities could maintain limited resources quality intensity coverage experts might needed parts country number two , people reviewed never seen case quite like one , convinced progress made recently progress going made normal means getting koresh cult members come number three , danger something others likely increase , decrease , passage time number four , reason believe children still inside compound abused significantly , well forced live unsafe conditions reasons , wanted move time second question asked attorney general whether given consideration things could go wrong evaluated might happen good said fbi personnel scene working convinced chances bad things happening would increase passage time third question asked , military consulted \? soon initial tragedy came light waco , 's first thing asked done , obvious typical law enforcement situation military people brought , helped analyze situation problems presented asked military consulted attorney general said , basic agreement one minor tactical difference opinion fbi military something sides thought overwhelming significance asked questions gotten answers , said thought right thing , proceed would support stand today q mr president president wait go ahead q address widespread perception reported widely , television , radio newspapers trying somehow distance disaster \? president , i'm bewildered reason made public statement yesterday let say reason made public statement yesterday nothing add said literally know rather late day whether anybody still alive actually seen taken hospital taken custody purely simply question waiting events ca n't account people speculated one way , talked attorney general day action took place talked yesterday called late last night appeared larry king show , talked morning president possible president distance things happen federal government control say , however , frankly , surprised would mild word , say anyone would suggest attorney general resign religious fanatics murdered \( applause \) regret happened , possible life control behavior others every circumstance people killed four federal officials line duty heavily armed fired federal officials yesterday repeatedly , never fired back everything could avoid loss life made decision regret terribly , feel awful children end , last comment janet reno , talked sunday said , , want tell believe believe believe move rather wait said , 's children evidence children still abused 're increasingly unsafe conditions , n't think get easier time passage time take word think things stand q assume n't think mishandled view outcome , n't run patience \? , would really decide way \? president well , think assume exactly announced today fbi done lot things right country long period time fbi found people bombed world trade center split , record time want inquiry analyze steps along way something else known \? question asked \? question asked \? say sure one could done nothing else make outcome come different \? n't know 's want inquiry 's would like make sure independent law enforcement people , political people , totally non political , outside experts bring bear best evidence , unfortunately , rise sort fanaticism across world may confront want know whether anything , particularly children involved think important recognize wrong case people killed others killed q mr president , options presented resolving situation point february 28th yesterday \? president well , yes , got regular reports along way lots options pursued go back covered well fbi good job mean , fbi authorities pursued number options along way , lot early seemed working children got , people left one point , seemed lines communication opening koresh authorities would say things things began spin downward whether terms happened yesterday , conversation attorney general involve options except whether take time present strategy pursuing said wanted , thought best way get people compound quickly could kill 's thought q government know children gas masks \? q congressional hearings situation agreement \? president 's congress whatever want think 's important treasury justice departments launch investigation bring outside experts said statement , congressional committees want look , fully cooperate nothing hide probably well covered operation kind history country \( , \) 30
ndallen r node hub org \( nigel allen \) subject waco clinton press conference , part 2 organization r node public access unix 1 416 249 5366 lines 99 press release white house president clinton 's remarks waco q national desk contact white house office press secretary , 202 456 2100 washington , april 20 u following remarks president clinton question answer session press \( part 2 2 \) go ahead , sarah q two questions want ask first , think knew well children gas masks adults , children chance gas said lethal , dangerous children could survived without gas masks february 28th let 's go back n't people right practice religion \? president practicing religion , treasury department believed violated federal laws , number q federal laws president let go back answer ca n't answer question gas masks , except tell whole purpose using tear gas tested convinced would n't kill either child adult would force anybody breathed run outside one things 've heard n't want get details n't know one things speculating today wind blowing fast windows might opened gas might escaped may n't desired effect also knew , sarah , underground compound bus buried underground children could sent think hoping much children released immediately outside humane thing would done children would sent someplace could protected terms gas masks , learned yesterday ask fact question gas supposed stay active compound longer gas masks work thought even gas masks , eventually gas would force , circumstance ms myers last question q mr president , still saying q could tell us whether ever asked janet reno possibility mass suicide \? learned actual fire explosion went mind horrendous moments \? president asked janet reno considered worse things could happen said , course , whole issue suicide raised public debated anyway said people knowledgeable kinds issues concluded greater risk would tomorrow next day day anytime future judgment made whether right wrong , course , never know happened saw fire , saw building burning \? sick felt terrible immediate concern whether children gotten whether escaping whether inside , trying burn 's first thing wanted know thank q mr president , still saying janet reno decision \? n't , end , decision \? president well , i'm saying n't four five hour , detailed briefing fbi n't go every strategic part decision take responsibility i'm president united states signed general decision giving authority make last call talked sunday , time elapsed might made decision change mind said , decide go forward tomorrow , support support ultimately responsible american people think conducted duties appropriate fashion dealt situation think well could thank \( applause \) 30
tzs stein u washington edu \( tim smith \) subject fbi director 's statement waco standoff article shelley organization university washington school law , class '95 lines 9 nntp posting host stein u washington edu feustel netcom com \( david feustel \) writes evidence batf fbi would started shooting people started coming burning building oh \? press \? batf fbi going shoot people leaving burning building , n't think would get rid press first \? tim smith
pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) subject militia \( incredibly long \) organization totally unorganized lines 75 article ulowell ulowell edu jrutledg cs ulowell edu \( john lawrence rutledge \) writes article transfer stratus com , cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) writes article ulowell ulowell edu , jrutledg cs ulowell edu \( john lawrence rutledge \) writes , knew much organization required training large group poeple twice year try get people every year , provide basic training new people integrated force , find suitable location , requires continually standing committee organizers , response , \? mr rutledge arguing since local federal governments abandoned charter support activity , passed laws prohibiting private organizations , eliminated basis rkba \? contrary , anyone understands game , strengthened , originally argued second amendment little bit anachronism prohibiting laws examples anachronism , laws made representatives people representatives people already decided second amendment apply broad cases since representatives feel unconditional interpretation wanted , probable majority people feel way , example people using power government people feel , people stand state wishes wrong neglecting government media people almost issue , constitutional limitations prevent example , majority could vote given rights , people , etc would fly using logic government feels constitution right times , procedure called amendment constitution deliberately difficult , cumbersome , prevent abuse decide ignore people , impose unjust policies majority minority lynch mob majority , remember , government violations , end runs around limitations government , probably know people would hard convince good intention behind bill rights government propeganda guns strong persistant , strong shows gullible people become government help sort line lied , fed half truths , rigged stats , government knows control laws effect crime want government monopoly force , pure simple really want government able override constitutional limitations simple vote bunch \( congresscritters \) \? sure n't founding fathers sure hell n't , either mox nix , mr rutledge one claiming rkba dependent existence top flight , well regulated militia false assumption already posted number times , simple stated people right join well organized militia also stated militia meets twice year clearly well organized state readiness claimed people right , state readiness expected militia stated hamilton better read senate constitution regarding second amendment , linguist 's second meanwhile , show us stuff back assertions yes , mentioned documents \( \) online pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc 1 207 \( pat myrto \) seattle , wa else fails , try ! uunet ! pilchuck ! rwing ! pat wisdom two things infinite universe human stupidity , sure former albert einstien
roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) subject batf fbi murders almost everyone waco today ! 4 19 organization university delaware lines 71 nntp posting host chopin udel edu article 425 geraldo cc utexas edu mikey ccwf cc utexas edu \( strider \) writes roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) writes mikey ccwf cc utexas edu \( strider \) writes according australian documentary made year stand began , koresh followers believed christ koresh sex children women married men compound perfect children resulting great seed magnified horn ex members describe ways dissimilar way jim jones described n't know accurate documentary documentary interviewed koresh current ex members documentary koresh 's christ status inside cult , cult brain washing techniques , unusual sex practices \( leader gets wants , tells others ca n't \) let others decide using religious authority sex minor technically child abuse however , koresh never convicted crimes children , batf child abuse \( case \) strictly firearms violations , true information irrelevant discussion well , fire deliberately set members cult , history background cult relevant history jones cult important understanding happened jonestown taking account history background koresh 's cult may also help explain fbi batf badly predicted would get inside compund nearly every step way badly handled affair fbi agents pass rigorous psychological examinations background checks plus , charge undoubtedly explain decisions great detail congress would fbi want fulfill koresh 's prophecy \? charge undoubtedly explain something , whether answers even remotely resembles truth may never know left alive care whether prophecy fulfilled \? holds meaning nine survived likely least two investigations \( jd congress \) point correction fbi said two cult members said far , one else able talk , talk news reporters directly , relate details , believe \? confirm story , probably definitely , however interesting conflicting details starting come reverted back wait mode find whether fire intentional accidental started spread fast mike ruff
cescript mtu edu \( charles scripter \) subject impeach clinton , reno organization michigan tech lines 29 nntp posting host phy mtu edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 21 apr 93 02 59 52 gmt , glenn r stone \( gs26 prism gatech edu \) wrote fact federal felony infringe civil rights color law death involved , offense carries penalty life prison title 18 , 241 242 seem apply 241 conspiracy \( two persons \) rights citizens 242 deprivation rights color law call life prison death occurs reno , bentsen , clinton probably principals crime \( responsible authorized actions part subordinates \) conclusion choice , honest people , impeach mr clinton , remove reno office forgot one detail , turned texas authorities trial , crime committed \( article 4 , section 2 \) charles scripter cescript phy mtu edu dept physics , michigan tech , houghton , mi 49931 government little great things , shall drawn washington centre power , render powerless checks provided one government another become venal oppressive government separated thomas jefferson , 1821
feustel netcom com \( david feustel \) subject knew would happen organization dafco os 2 software support consulting lines 8 god forgive american pays taxes government commits atrocities like waco massacre 1993 dave feustel n9myi feustel netcom com i'm beginning look forward reaching 100 allocation taxes pay interest national debt point federal government go business lack funds
diederic spot colorado edu \( andrew diederich \) subject batf acronym nntp posting host spot colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder distribution usa lines 13 n't seen one yet , goes b , f ed ! n't know adequate , fits acronym \) andrew diederich diederic spot colorado edu opinions mine alternate tuesdays
viking iastate edu \( dan sorenson \) subject rewording second amendment \( ideas \) organization iowa state university , ames ia lines 21 dfo vttoulu tko vtt fi \( foxvog douglas \) writes believe individuals right weapons mass destruction \? find hard believe would support neighbor 's right keep nuclear weapons , biological weapons , nerve gas property really depends upon draw line defining weapons , also intend law reflective modern practice five months five centuries road 'll give little hint see manure pile farmer 's field road \? usa , weapon mass destruction , biological nature , gets washed open well contaminate aquifers supply thousands cities drinking water , draw line \? usa , epa ruled pile scrap iron illegal care draw thinner line time \? dan sorenson , dod 1066 z1dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu censors read , say n't blame usenet post exotic , distant machines meet exciting , unusual people flame
cescript mtu edu \( charles scripter \) subject raid justification blast next time distribution usa organization michigan tech lines 52 nntp posting host phy mtu edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 wed , 21 apr 1993 03 52 11 gmt , peter cash \( cash convex com \) wrote got listening 10 o'clock news channel 4 dallas list justifications produced atf months investigation raid cnn claimed bought 104 semi automatic assault rifles say koresh n't god like managed buy build collection fully automatic semi automatic rifles quite feat , would say \) 're still making charges sexual abuse , course nobody seems noticed treasury department nothing sex crimes maybe feds recently instituted tax sex crimes yeah , 's batf , looking unregistered guns \( weapon , gun , fighting , \) could n't believe junk list ! example , bds accused stockpiling bunch 9mm 223 ammunition used m15 assault rifles imagine ammunition ! also heard 're claiming cautious koresh 's heated ammunition stockpile seem recall smokeless powder tends even moderate temperatures would rather surprised , fire nature , stockpile , also aluminum dust ! \( yeah , 's component , far n't heard 's illegal take aluminum lawn furniture \) seem recall aluminum powder common component folks rec could probably tell thing list could conceivably illegal 79 grenade launcher \( anybody know \? \) think anything legal proper license permit , believe could legally go launcher charles scripter cescript phy mtu edu dept physics , michigan tech , houghton , mi 49931 government little great things , shall drawn washington centre power , render powerless checks provided one government another become venal oppressive government separated thomas jefferson , 1821
atfurman cup portal com \( \) subject cold war really \? organization portal system \( tm \) lines 51 one reasons united states america one time represented protected freedom individual liberty personal responsibility \( , fact , think true \) totalitarianism absolute government control tyranny represents freedom 's opposite \( \) , usa really win cold war \? standard disclaimers always apply ! graham k glover cold war ended thing happened two sides exchanged roles usa higher imprisonment rate \( 400 per 100 , 000 population \) country europe factor 10 california , 600 per 100 , 000 population prison population california 100 , 000 , since 1980 inmates convicted drug prohibition laws police confiscate property , without trial , good faith probable cause standard , name depriving horrible ghastly drug dealers ill gotten gains conduct opinion poll , majority answer yes ask whether civil liberties due process diluted order send young people message serious winning war drugs n't know whether anyone measured figure among gun owners , would expect result certainly seem vote way according jack 's book emperor wears clothes , twelve million years prison time served marijuana prohibition laws , people minding business causing harm others \( less harm users tobacco , 400 , 000 confirmed kills year \) war drugs campaign zero tolerance due process protections eroded , mandatory sentences ten years without parole large , gun owners voted politicians favor measures , precedents legal , political fellow americans , must send young people message serious winning war murder going applied oncoming wave gun prohibition laws gun owners get taste medicine voted believing would used different tastes recreational drugs goes around comes around alan n't blame voted libertarian atfurman cup portal com \( 800 \) 682 1776 information
organization university illinois chicago , academic computer center jason kratz u28037 uicvm uic edu subject gun like american express card distribution usa 1993apr17 ucsu 1993apr19 csd newshost stanford edu lines 45 article 1993apr19 csd newshost stanford edu , andy sail stanford edu \( andy freeman \) says article 93108 uicvm uic edu jason kratz u28037 uicvm uic edu point forgot bring \( nothing g gang member \) illegal carry concealed weapon thi area \( state illinois matter \) right nas nothing person gang member , 's kratz inferred wrong people legally carry concealed il circumstances many people carry concealed accuracy really much expect \? andy 's would read post accurate 's said material another post point would like make know 's true \( looked one illinois andy statutes \) illegal carry concealed weapon illinois also andy went say thing ccw us ordinary folk end quoted material course forgot mention us ordinary folk andy i'm going go library tomorrow photocopy part illinois statutes information post ordinary citizens get license carry concealed weapon people even asked lawyer friend told certain people get licenses concealed carry could n't remember people knew sure regular citizens could n't get type license told go check library statutes 'll post info tomorrow night jason
viking iastate edu \( dan sorenson \) subject right keep bear arms \( 's next \? \) organization iowa state university , ames ia lines 28 mikey ccwf cc utexas edu \( strider \) writes pip cc brandeis edu writes good , mean forever yes , gone days leave house night well , could n't last forever record , n't came college \( excluding times went omaha council something \) ever removed keys ignition car ! come think , moved ames , ia \( pop \) ever took locking doors night 've discovered 50k year n't worth living fear day might move back farm weekend know , isu students riot apparent reason year , 've farm aid concert add anybody bet 's another riot \? remember , iowa law three guys talking loud defined riot stay tuned scene report weekend dan sorenson , dod 1066 z1dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu censors read , say n't blame usenet post exotic , distant machines meet exciting , unusual people flame
organization university illinois chicago , academic computer center jason kratz u28037 uicvm uic edu subject gun like american express card distribution usa lines 28 article clem handheld com , jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) says article 93109 uicvm uic edu jason kratz kind funny though one picked part sister social worker keeping date gang thing everyone else seemed skim part jason guess means everyone else mistaken \? jim jmd handheld com actually jim said everyone else seemed part mentioned get whatever meaning want jason
viking iastate edu \( dan sorenson \) subject blast next time organization iowa state university , ames ia distribution usa lines 69 oldham ces cwru edu \( daniel oldham \) writes happened waco fault batf would proper equipment personal could captured compound initial assault none would happened seal team six handled \? delta force \? batf enough equipment men good intel , poor planning fucked even basic military sense , fucked excuses justify body counts batf needs people , better weapons armored transports meet hostile fire able use force instead retreating stand going job right batf protect us must proper equipment people job excuses fall upon deaf ears batf shown shitty leadership despite people , better weapons , exclusive use armor targets batf nothing private army government agents swear oath , , uphold constitution \? know , document stipulates highest law land \? , charges court law remember , law \? 's whole reason wod increased crime streets batf needed ever blast away good fokes price pay law order country look good people died wars protect great country yeah , 've related many flame bait , right \? i'm paying price mind sight guns body \? think price pay may live without fear making stray shot 's fine dandy revel guy target supposed safety military , called chicken shit leadership rear war drugs , despite catchy term nothing continuation policy since century , seems gotten convinced rights n't worth good mind cut net access , well access forms expression \? see , make nervous , able influence many i'm sure see price pay freedom liberty country , well fair unbiased judiciary arms build waco needed hit compound mega fire power could gone blasting killed women kids would better letting burn death 51 days later mind include body count \? i'm sure could file civic improvement life would n't sacrificed vain like , estate reduction , , learn law protects , n't protect , everybody equally collective boot may one day collective throat , perhaps time mature enough realize 're talking serious next time , include smiley hesitate think could meant seriously , deserved small flame anyway dan sorenson , dod 1066 z1dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu censors read , say n't blame usenet post exotic , distant machines meet exciting , unusual people flame
strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) subject text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption organization dsi uscrpac distribution na lines 11 though agree place discuss guns , note passing number gun apologists seem ignored words well regulated distorted interpretations second amendment david david sternlight great care taken ensure accuracy information , errors omissions excepted
dfo vttoulu tko vtt fi \( foxvog douglas \) subject rewording second amendment \( ideas \) organization vtt lines 58 article 4t transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) writes article 1993apr20 ousrvr oulu fi , dfo vttoulu tko vtt fi \( foxvog douglas \) writes article transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) writes article ulowell ulowell edu , jrutledg cs ulowell edu \( john lawrence rutledge \) writes massive destructive power many modern weapons , makes cost accidental usage weapons great weapons mass destruction need control government individual access would result needless deaths millions makes right people keep bear many modern weapons non existant thanks stating 're coming needless say , disagree every count believe individuals right weapons mass destruction \? find hard believe would support neighbor 's right keep nuclear weapons , biological weapons , nerve gas property cannot even agree keeping weapons mass destruction hands individuals , hope us \? n't sign blank checks course term must defined bill doug foxvog says weapons mass destruction , means cbw nukes sarah brady says weapons mass destruction means street sweeper shotguns semi automatic sks rifles doubt uses term using quote allegedly , back \? john lawrence rutledge says weapons mass destruction , immediately follows us thousands people killed year handguns , number easily reduced putting reasonable restrictions rutledge mean term \? read article presenting first argument weapons mass destruction \( commonly understood \) switching topics first point evidently show weapons allowed , later analysis , given understanding , consider another class cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet doug foxvog douglas foxvog vtt fi
dfo vttoulu tko vtt fi \( foxvog douglas \) subject rewording second amendment \( ideas \) organization vtt lines 55 article viking ponderous cc iastate edu viking iastate edu \( dan sorenson \) writes dfo vttoulu tko vtt fi \( foxvog douglas \) writes believe individuals right weapons mass destruction \? find hard believe would support neighbor 's right keep nuclear weapons , biological weapons , nerve gas property really depends upon draw line defining weapons , means would support ban narrow enough good also intend law reflective modern practice five months five centuries road would hope let 's define nuclear weapon explosive weapon whose majority energy comes fission fusion atomic nuclei let 's define biological weapon live organisms viruses state , quantity , vector could cause death serious disease defined significant number people released city , similarly populated area , , nerve gas mustard gas well defined poisonous gasses individually banned shown use related weaponry licenses available research purposes chemicals lawyer , ideas could certainly basis definitions 'll give little hint see manure pile farmer 's field road \? usa , weapon mass destruction , nope considered weapon biological nature , gets washed open well contaminate aquifers supply thousands cities drinking water , draw line \? usa , epa ruled pile scrap iron illegal care draw thinner line time \? defined weapon mass destruction many things banned reasons dan sorenson , dod 1066 z1dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu censors read , say n't blame doug foxvog douglas foxvog vtt fi
viking iastate edu \( dan sorenson \) subject cs burn explode organization iowa state university , ames ia lines 21 rcanders nyx cs du edu \( mr nice guy \) writes fbi released large amounts cs tear gas compound waco cs tear gas fine power cs grain dust suspended air form explosive mixture , cs suspended air form explosive mix \? could large quantities cs fueled rapid spread fire compound \? chance cs ignited , would quite similar grain bin explosion explosion , note entire compound would leveled , merely burned explosion , cs ignition causing fire note five miles decent grain elevator explosion knock butt ears ring days speak experience dan sorenson , dod 1066 z1dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu censors read , say n't blame usenet post exotic , distant machines meet exciting , unusual people flame
nntp posting host surt ifi uio thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio subject change name \? \? reply popovich cs columbia edu \( steve popovich \) 's message wed , 21 apr 1993 01 54 51 gmt organization dept informatics , university oslo , norway hydra gatech edu popovich prince cs columbia edu lines 37 originator thomasp surt ifi uio survived ww2 mailed postings things n't know thing wrong places i'm trying censor newsgroup , i'm trying give hints newsgroups n't belong alt conspiracy \? \? note ! ! ! posting reply fbi filling napalm , arrested people know quisling , right \? obviously n't vidkun quisling known norway , betrayed country \( norway \) implied som jumped conclusions sound little paranoid think lot norway waco looks batf fbi ca n't handle situations like way went reminds bomb beeing dropped house la helicopter \( whole block went flames , 5 died \) n't conspiracy , maybe screwed \? \? \? signature 's merely computergenerated text waste bandwith bring evil internet thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio
kevin axon cs byu edu \( kevin vanhorn \) subject american horror file call help organization usr users kevin organization lines 30 distribution usa nntp posting host axon cs byu edu today 's atrocity waco finally impelled start working something 've thinking time last years heard one case another government running completely amok unfortunately , people oblivious government 's crimes still think protector intend put together call american horror file compilation cases american government run rights citizens last years , focusing especially deaths injuries resulting knock warrants , financial ruin innocents resulting civil forfeiture laws , including cases find decent documentation hope make people blood boiling , artery bursting , red hot enraged government end result probably book electronic form \( ascii text postscript files \) detailing government 's crimes recent years book distributed cost , encourage people post copies bbs 's , send copies disk friends , print copies give neighbors call help information send government running amok greatly appreciated would prefer information well documented , sources given , specific instances governmental abuses also welcome anyone wants join collecting researching information project kevin van horn religion batf approved \? vanhorn bert cs byu edu
subject news says batf indictment warrant unsealed kim39 scws8 harvard edu \( john kim \) distribution world organization harvard university science center nntp posting host scws8 harvard edu lines 19 something koresh threatened cause local problems alleged someone else post details soon , i'm sure news sniper 9 outside mca l man arrested suspect disgruntled employee universal studios , division c question californians guns denny trial \? case kim kim39 husc harvard edu
feustel netcom com \( david feustel \) subject batf 's prime directive organization dafco os 2 software support consulting lines 7 bully , bludgeon , bury dave feustel n9myi feustel netcom com i'm beginning look forward reaching 100 allocation taxes pay interest national debt point federal government go business lack funds
feustel netcom com \( david feustel \) subject janet reno responsibility organization dafco os 2 software support consulting lines 11 see difference janet reno 's claim responsibility waco massacre ira 's claims responsibility various acts terrorism british citizens dave feustel n9myi feustel netcom com i'm beginning look forward reaching 100 allocation taxes pay interest national debt point federal government go business lack funds
nntp posting host surt ifi uio thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio subject gun like american express card reply viking iastate edu \( dan sorenson \) 's message mon , 19 apr 1993 08 52 42 gmt organization dept informatics , university oslo , norway clem handheld com cmm 0 90 2 thomasp surt ifi uio viking ponderous cc iastate edu cmm 0 90 2 thomasp surt ifi uio viking ponderous cc iastate edu lines 51 originator thomasp surt ifi uio n't remember figures exactly , 3500 deaths texas 1991 caused guns beeing killed car accidents ! \( yes , could low sentences high poverty could influence figures 're still pretty high right \? \? \) also believe texas liberal 'gun laws' usa suffer others agree one , also live therefor 'll give 'freedom' \( note '' \) insurance \? \? 'll pay others buy anything \? \? paying return goods , steal even gets bonus live people \? \? 'd want \( playing music loud \) hell trying say \? \? live society \( usa counted one \) question much one state \( n't remember , texas \? \? \) tried impose rule could buy one gun month think know happened respect right defend , right inflict people seems like realize problem america , problem wo n't take car away drunk driver , hope cure first hope life standard winnie poh signature 's merely computergenerated text waste bandwith bring evil internet thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio
organization penn state university psuvm psu edu subject clinton wants national id card , aka ussr style internal passport boi hp com 1993apr16 ucsu colorado edu 1 cs cmu edu 1993apr19 1306 hsh com lines 50 article 1993apr19 1306 hsh com , paul hsh com \( paul havemann \) says article 1 cs cmu edu , tsmith cs cmu edu \( tom smith \) writes article 1993apr16 ucsu colorado edu u fcrary ucsu colorado ed \( frank crary \) writes article boi hp com slack boi hp com \( david slack \) writes idea card bull self , i'm curious know , plan making requirement always , going required presented trying ge medical aid \? , least , already determined blue cross medical coverage federal employees good model future national system get emergency medical care , anyone insured must always carry blue cross card entering hospital , must notify blue cross , refuse pay bills emergency , must treated notifying , must inform within 24 hours \( unable medical reasons \) hospital must failing within 24 hours means cover hospitalization need card notify \( without card , hospital certainly would n't know \) therefore , required carry card times , without emergency medical coverage works fine end hospital hit head wallet , insurance card , stolen happened , took six months sort mess sorts plans sound nice first , end create lot paperwork bureaucracy deal checking filing involve tom non hacker whoa ! care say , tom obvious answer problem national number say , forearm never leave home without hell , worked brings us back original , sarcasm laden post 's outcry liberal sector national id card \? god , conservative proposed plus clinton 's national police proposal liberals would heil ! police state ! self styled liberals ought ashamed hypocrites ! n't know watch , saw spokesman aclu voice opposition idea nbc first night
feustel netcom com \( david feustel \) subject waco clinton press conference , part 1 organization dafco os 2 software support consulting lines 10 predict outcome study went wrong federal assault waco result future assaults type conducted full scale military operations explicit shoot kill directives dave feustel n9myi feustel netcom com i'm beginning look forward reaching 100 allocation taxes pay interest national debt point federal government go business lack funds
organization stanford linear accelerator center mgb slacvm slac stanford edu subject cost benefit analysis \( fbi director 's statement \) 1993apr20 twisto eng hou compaq com senator bedfellow mit edu lines 6 anyone noticed commented fact many willing , nay demanding , wait forever mr hussein iraq , use tremendously costly sanctions , avoid loss life , fore front smashed religious radicals wasting money allowing stand go \? worm turns sect changes
kdw icd ab com \( kenneth whitehead \) subject blast next time nntp posting host sora icd ab com organization allen bradley company , inc lines 57 oldham ces cwru edu \( daniel oldham \) happened waco fault batf would proper equipment personal could captured compound initial assault none would happened 'd gone door knocked serve warrant , like sheriff done 3 times , would n't needed initial assault , klinton attorney reno would n't able told heroic stories protected rest us group people kept , miles prairie batf needs people , better weapons armored transports meet hostile fire able use force instead retreating stand going job right batf protect us must proper equipment people job batf needs disbanded control group rambo danger republic wod increased crime streets batf needed ever blast away good fokes price pay law order country well , figure 're going get flamed pretty badly everybody else incredibly stupid statement , 'll let pass case western reserve , huh \? feds know big stockpile automatic weapons crack house \? daniel oldham lives drive \? get address right , look good people died wars protect great country well , used great country i'm sure knew good people died wars viet nam assure , none us fought protect right government attack citizens military force without provocation \( hint serving search warrant sufficient provocation stage military style assault religious group least us maybe iraq , syria \) arms build waco needed hit compound mega fire power could gone blasting killed women kids would better letting burn death 51 days later joke , right \? really letting fools like cwru \? bad used good school 'd get anyway , old man buy new wing library \?
veal utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) subject dayton gun buy back \( boston gun buy back \) lines 23 organization university tennessee division continuing education article cbnews cb att com lvc cbnews cb att com \( larry cipriani \) writes according wnci 97 9 fm radio morning , dayton , ohio operating gun buy back giving 50 every functional gun turned ran money one day , passing 50 vouchers sort looking funds keep operating another media event brought hci something similar pro gun people \? example , pay 100 anyone lawfully protects life firearm \? sounds bit tacky , hey , whatever works ack , public relations nightmare begging happen gun lobby pays nra shell dough david veal univ tenn div cont education info services group pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu still remember way laughed , day pushed elevator shaft i'm beginning think n't love anymore weird al
pngai adobe com \( phil ngai \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization adobe systems incorporated lines 12 article c5sv88 hjy news cso uiuc edu irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \( brent irvine \) writes eat food cold \? ever hear electric ovens microwaves \? popular electric stoves outside metro areas especially dividians n't option fbi cut electricity flag n't bother much seeing american flag tanks assaulting church americans never bothered anyone
henson cc wwu edu \( james douglas del \) subject n't knock glock \( gun like ex card \) organization western washington university distribution usa lines 20 article 1993apr15 mksol dseg ti com , pyron skndiv dseg ti com seriously difference safeties glock da revolver intellectually , think glock high cap revolver ignoring stove pipes , bonus exercises give , da revolver , get another try misfire pistol trigger cock hammer , like jennings , astra , glock , misfire requires slide cycled get gun function rather high capacity revolver , think glock astra manual safety heavier trigger pull jim del
dlb5404 tamuts tamu edu \( daryl biberdorf \) subject latest texas hb 1776 \( ccw \) organization texas university , college station lines 9 nntp posting host tamuts tamu edu called texas bill tracking people \( 800 253 \) today regarding hb 1776 concealed carry well , supposed come vote past wednesday , bill got sent back public safety committee psc gave favorable rating , bill must scheduled debate committee daryl biberdorf n5gjm biberdorf tamu edu sola gratia sola fide sola scriptura
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject gun control organization stratus computer , inc lines 87 distribution world nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article 1993apr16 beaver cs washington edu , graham cs washington edu \( stephen graham \) writes article transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) writes article 1993apr14 beaver cs washington edu , graham cs washington edu \( stephen graham \) writes john q public gun protected \? 's worth noting us vs miller sustained miller 's conviction possession illegal firearm , noting sawed shotgun proper militia weapon , noted one claimed proper militia weapon \( despite used least two wars \) true , since neither miller lawyer appeared court sustain miller 's conviction \? n't text case handy miller convicted owning sawed shotgun paying nfa tax court 's decision second amendment intended assure continuation render possible effectiveness force militia must interpreted applied end view militia includes males physically capable acting concert common defense however , regarding sawed shotguns , certainly within judicial notice weapon part ordinary military equipment use could contribute common defense judicial notice term art meant evidence formally presented different claiming ruled n't yes , shotguns used wwi , spanish american war , us civil war question possession sawed shotgun , e , weapon altered improve i'm talking plain shotguns war i'm talking short \( sawed \) shotguns war compare revolutionary war spanish american war trench cleaners ww also put good use us soldiers ww ii , mention invaluable tunnel rats vietnam , , course , miller took place 1939 therefore , us vs miller supports limited government regulation firearms n't go arguing road unless willing abide consequences find end mainly , law abiding common man right weapon militia purpose , handguns sawed shotguns fully automatic weapons , fact , decision says free produce evidence i'm willing abide implications seem arguing certain types guns fall outside scope second n't useful argument unless believe significant gun class gun belongs class think agree zip guns probably n't protected maybe also agree weapons random state governments banning trying ban sporting purpose citizen would ever need guns fall protection second , given damn near gun practical utility time used military , even marksmanship training purposes , need understand intent pressing point , arguing something protected second n't whole heartedly endorse nra position mean oppose rkba attitude makes nra unpopular often , makes someone unpopular people say much us fear abhor branch davidians six months ago \? many us feared saddam hussein five years ago \? cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
thf2 kimbark uchicago edu \( ted frank \) subject gritz jbs liberty lobby larouche christic insitute libertarian reply thf2 midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 27 article 1 cs cmu edu rubinoff cs cmu edu \( robert rubinoff \) writes article 93105 uicvm uic edu u23590 uicvm uic edu writes note bo gritz populist party ticket david duke \( veep \) 1988 found duke leading ticket , withdrew candidacy 's revisionist account happened gritz well aware duke 's presence ticket given gritz shy associating promoting white \( christian identity movement willis \) , whatever reasons gritz leave ticket nothing duke 's presence gritz gave chance vice president us supporting duke 'd hardly call giving chance vice president us chance populist party ticket winning essentially nil still , imply n't want associated duke believe chip berlet populist party newsletter time photo gritz happily shaking hands duke ted frank thf2 kimbark uchicago edu i'm sorry , card says moops u c law school standard disclaimers
rboudrie wpi wpi edu \( robert boudrie \) subject gun control organization worcester polytechnic institute lines 249 nntp posting host wpi wpi edu article 1993apr16 010235 14225 mtu edu cescript mtu edu \( charles scripter \) writes article 2k7 ulowell ulowell edu jrutledg cs ulowell edu \( john lawrence rutledge \) wrote article gap caltech edu arc cco caltech edu \( aaron ray clements \) writes second amendment guarantee right bear arms clearly unequivocally , without infringement unfortunately second amendment clear state last part taken along , follows said problem first part single sentence makes amendment second amendment well regulated militia , necessary security militia free state , right people keep bear state arms , shall infringed arms n't even get capitalization correct ! try reading usca constitution , get correct version constitution mention well regulated militia confuses according federalist paper 's , well regulated militia well defined structure follows nationally uniform regulations perhaps actually read federalist papers ! ! james madison , federalist paper 46 besides advantage armed , americans possess people almost every nation , existence subordinate governments , people attached , militia officers appointed , forms barrier enterprises ambition , simple government form admit notwithstanding military establishments several kingdoms europe , carried far public resources bear , governments afraid trust people arms james madison , annals congress 434 , 8 june 1789 right people keep bear arms shall infringed well regulated militia , composed body people , trained arms , best natural defense free country alexander hamilton , federalist paper 29 \( organization militia \) little reasonably aimed , respect people large , properly armed equipped order see neglected , necessary assemble twice course year alexander hamilton , federalist paper 29 \( speaking standing armies \) circumstances time oblige government form army magnitude army never formidable liberties people large body citizens , little , , inferior discipline use arms , stand ready defend rights fellow citizens surely hamilton madison n't mean people said people , right \? 's amendment refers right militia \? \) average 17 45 year old male fall definition 're right , militia consists able males \( probably females current interpretation \) therefore members militia , one every gun advocate refers , members well organized militia therefore directly amendment refer well organized , says well regulated targets may examine wish check well regulated mentioned amendment amendment wanted allow every member militia keep bear arms , mention well organized militia sentence right keep bear arms \? correct 's right reserved people insure people could form well regulated militia , well organized militia could argued first part sentence separate last part , include atomic unit written atomic units argument \? moron set h bar c 1 instead separate sentence \? oh , see question n't read federalist papers \? ! james madison , federalist paper 41 \( regarding general welfare clause \) nothing natural common first use general phrase , explain qualify recital particulars madison know grammatical style 2nd \? wrote amendment also implies right arms due security free state federalist paper 's mention well regulated militia gives many examples militia protects security free state examples actions organized force , john q public gun 's obviously 've never actually read federalist papers second amendment clearly states people 's right form well regulated militias shall infringed people right join well organized militia well organized militia , course , provide training use arms basic military tactics training members militia keep bear arms ca n't read , huh \? show document says well organized militia lastly , reading federalist paper 's well organized militia clear many reasons militias one reason stated protection standing army days standing army could easily defeat group consisting every 17 45 year old male female forces exactly every person allowed weapon currently use armed forces another reason stated well organized militias reduced need standing army well , us forces standing army half history us major reason protect army seems whole reason second amendment , give people protection us government guaranteeing people government necessary , little bit anachronism day age maybe time think done amend constitution appropriately abraham lincoln , first inaugural address , march 4 , 1861 country , institutions , belongs people inhabit whenever shall grow weary existing government , exercise constitutional right , revolutionary right overthrow rep gerry massachusetts , spoken floor debate second amendment , annals congress 750 , 17 august 1789 , sir , use militia \? prevent establishment standing army , bane liberty whenever governments mean invade rights liberties people , always attempt destroy militia , order raise army upon ruins know category mr rutledge means destroy liberties rights charles scripter cescript phy mtu edu dept physics , michigan tech , houghton , mi 49931 government little great things , shall drawn washington centre power , render powerless checks provided one government another become venal oppressive government separated thomas jefferson , 1821 article gap caltech edu arc cco caltech edu \( aaron ray clements \) writes second amendment guarantee right bear arms clearly unequivocally , without infringement unfortunately second amendment clear state last part taken along , follows said problem first part single sentence makes amendment second amendment well regulated militia , necessary security militia free state , right people keep bear state arms , shall infringed arms n't even get capitalization correct ! try reading usca constitution , get correct version constitution several ways one choose issue \( \) original intent \( b \) subjectively political whims day use original intent basis constitution , clear founding fathers intended individual citizen allowed bear arms similar used soldiers day references , cite federalist papers embarassing second ammendment , yale law review , prof stanford levinson sorry , n't date handy prof levinson sought prove 2nd ammendment convey individual right , concluded , hence embarassing title report , united states , 97th congress , second session february 1982 u vs \( supreme court case recent years \) although case pertain firearms , justice notes term people term art individual rights , specifically cited several used , 2nd included , opinion title 10 , u code states males ages 18 45 part organized militia , female officers national guard part unorganized militia feel free cite scholarly historical references support position could go greater length personal proof assertion , however , technique would carry less weight dubious proofs assertion
vax2 concordia ca \( stephen white \) subject gritz jbs liberty lobby larouche christic insitute libertarian news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host vax2 concordia ca organization concordia university lines 25 article 1 cs cmu edu , rubinoff cs cmu edu \( robert rubinoff \) writes article 93105 uicvm uic edu u23590 uicvm uic edu writes note bo gritz populist party ticket david duke \( veep \) 1988 found duke leading ticket , withdrew candidacy gritz gave chance vice president us supporting duke 'd hardly call giving chance vice president us chance populist party ticket winning essentially nil still , imply n't want associated duke robert exactly , party , probably n't want bad press directly associated duke would bring conversely , david duke supposed make us \? mean stand neo nazism whoa ! 's progressive ! come certainly know would refuse openly denounce vice presidency meant putting control stephen white live simply others may simply live k
loki acca nmsu edu \( entropic destroyer \) subject need info 43 1 suicide refutation organization new mexico state university lines 35 distribution usa nntp posting host nmsu edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 following quoted tail end \( rather condescending \) article paxton quigley , appeared us world lies , \( sorry think wall street journal \) repeated colorado \( people 's \) daily , student newspaper university colorado boulder study residential deaths king county , wash , found gun home 43 times likely used kill owner , spouse , friend , child kill intruder studies western psychiatric institute , pittsburgh , found mere presence gun home sharply likelihood family member commit suicide , even absence psychiatric illness seen numbers quoted , seen specific refutation quoted well someone kind email relevant information , write letter editor co daily \( might get published \) send copy wr well thanx dan dod 202 loki acca nmsu edu liberty death taylordf ucsu colorado edu send something even ca n't read begin pgp public key block version 2 1 mqcnaitfksqaaaeeakceejwi9f5kmjykp0logc5dghrpbmy2xhoo8kpehmdyuf8a 1bfdqsj53kostz6hroshsdzlvul1 40vpjmmntfr vyz4jvd3rl4iuq2ummmex3m itf3ult8xn v qabsvhcfshvjvk4lf6wosucmo03m2tix31ai7vb0uzo4yxjaaux tcreyw5pzwwgribuyxlsb3igpexva2laywnjys5ubxn1lmvkdt4 s5ib end pgp public key block
kckluge eecs umich edu \( karl kluge \) subject gritz jbs liberty lobby larouche christic insitute libertarian reply arf genesis mcs com 's message 15 apr 1993 20 57 53 0500 organization university michigan lines 21 arf genesis mcs com \( jack schmidling \) subject gritz jbs liberty lobby larouche christic insitute libertarian date 15 apr 1993 20 57 53 0500 ca n't speak organizations cited everywhere look society government , one see relentless movement toward one world government fact media values patriotism , nationalism clues border people trade already lost great deal i'm sure people big fans pissed emergence modern nation state imagine , king allowing freedom could live city year ! times change , technology changes , viable forms social organization change concerns preserving western notions civil liberties face cultures different values valid one , 's waste effort try turn back tide 's much smarter focus trying make sure emerging forms social organization acceptable iss passing old forms
hambidge bms com subject gun control reply hambidge bms com organization bristol myers squibb lines 51 article ulowell ulowell edu , jrutledg cs ulowell edu \( john lawrence rutledge \) writes phrase right people keep bear arms , shall infringed must either qualify explain phrase well regulated militia , necessary security free state stuff deleted since right people keep bear arms , shall infringed describe , modify make less harsh anything nothing grammar sort position task process elimination must fall definition 3 since 3 deals legal power , thing constitution , must correct definition case therefore , right people keep bear arms gives legal power well militia legal power shall infringed ah , clarification obfuscation actually , words well regulated , necessary security free state present , used adjective modify , followed main clause sentence , subject 'the right' , verb asserts right keep bear arms essential maintaining sentence n't restrict right , state imply possession right anyone anything people make positive statement regarding right people people , , first , fourth , ninth , tenth , well second amendment existence right assumed granted amendment stated implied condition relating right bear arms necessity well regulated militia security free state words , entire sentence says right keep bear arms unconditional effort force views liberties rights , state nothing written , write , matter liberties rights final word one person among many final word liberties rights belongs many final word liberties rights belong many constitution otherwise , majority popular opinion , concept familiar federalist papers al standard disclaimer
gary colossus cgd ucar edu \( gary \) subject slaughter organization climate global dynamics division ncar , boulder , co lines 16 followups talk politics guns rl russell lawrence kr karl kr support right citizen criminal history use firearms , regardless race , gender , religion rl thanks admitting , , adhere illogical dogma well , folks p guns , want show russell 's illogical dogma wrong \? gary opinions stated herein mine alone ncar ucar edu representative ncar , ucar , nsf
crphilli hound dazixca ingr com \( ron phillips \) subject randy weaver trial day 2 nntp posting host hound reply crphilli hound dazixca ingr com organization intergraph electronics , mountain view , ca distribution usa lines 89 posted firearms politics mailing list hi folks wednesday marked day 2 , beginning trial opening statements given prosecution defense , side presenting version happenned last august prosecution argued weaver family moved idaho 1983 anticipating battle evil federal government prosecution alleges weaver sold federal agents sawed shotguns later failed appear trial despite repeated good faith efforts get weaver surrender peacefully , weaver refused shootout erupted weaver discovered agents surveillance mission began firing according prosecution , three people taking offensive action fbi helicopter fbi sniper killed vicki weaver defense argued weaver family moved northern idaho 1983 practice religion peace wanted simply left alone weaver induced federal agents sell short shotgun \( , prosecution alleged , want become regular supplier \) defense also argued federal government sought arrest weaver would n't become informant specified explicitly , assume reference white angle story 'll know things develop failure appear court happenned weaver given incorrect court date indicted date shootout occurred federal agent arthur roderick killed weaver 's dog proximity weaver 's son , samuel weaver fired self defense ensuing battle , federal agent william degan killed \( gun later found , 7 223 cases nearby gun semi automatic however , agents near body extended period time could played select fire fully explained \) finally , defense claims vicki weaver going look body recover \? son cut fbi sniper prosecution quote weaver wanted confrontation , made confrontation asst u attorney kim defense quote evidence case going show case randy weaver kevin harris charged crimes n't commit order cover crimes government commit gerry spence nice ! notes idaho statesman claims weaver supporters call spence repeat yesterday 's protests outside courthouse however , local nbc affiliate footage 10 00 news 5 supporters including tim tim claimed , ordinary , working class people also claimed white pride , white power outside courthouse television crew interview bo gritz , charged neo nazi protestors exactly government wants smear randy weaver affiliated article carried idaho statesman , dozen lawyers among 70 people packed courthouse lawyers present watch gerry spence action , perhaps learn something tidbits spence flatly told jurors son kent time represent weaver believed spence , 90 minute opening statement , repeatedly walked behind weaver placed hands defendants shoulders \( weaver broke cried wife 's death \) , spence compared sawed shotgun driving 56 mph limit 55 \( another good one ! \) today \( thursday , april 15th \) prosecution scheduled begin presenting evidence drew ron phillips crphilli hound dazixca ingr com senior customer engineer intergraph electronics 381 east evelyn avenue voice \( 415 \) 691 6473 mountain view , ca 94041 fax \( 415 \) 691 0350
crphilli hound dazixca ingr com \( ron phillips \) subject randy weaver trail day 3 nntp posting host hound reply crphilli hound dazixca ingr com organization intergraph electronics , mountain view , ca distribution usa lines 85 posted firearms politics mailing list hi folks thursday , april 15 marked day 3 trial day marked first testimony trial deputy u marshal larry cooper took stand prosecution short version testimony consistent opening statements prosecution cooper testified arrived spokane \( washington \) august 17 , 1992 participate surveillance operation five deputies near weaver cabin team using night vision equipment surveillance , split two teams three people six later met observation point cabin , deputies cooper , william degan , arthur roderick began descent scout possible surveillance sites cooper told court roderick threw two large rocks see , whether weaver family dogs would respond striker , weaver 's yellow lab , started toward barking loudly roderick led three run area ran dense woods open area called fern field dog pursuit time , kevin harris samuel weaver joined chase surveillance team reached road cooper decided take cover woods otherwise would easy target might shot back degan reached , spotted randy weaver coming road cabin ahead weaver startled fire moment , striker reached degan , cooper fend gun unclear whether means dog shot dog cooper degan took cover woods according cooper , kevin harris samuel weaver continued walking road , apparently noticing two passed road , degan got one knee , raised gun , shouted , stop ! u marshal ! harris brought weapon around hip level fired n't bring weapon eye level saw bill 's arm going back , knew hit cooper fired harris , harris went cooper brought weapon bear samuel , fire point , cooper heard two shots right samuel weaver looked direction shots , yelled , son bitch ! ran toward cooper realized shots coming directly ahead , fired three round burst cabin point saw samuel weaver running toward cabin cooper reached degan , placed first two fingers degan artery , counted two three beats , heart stopped shortly thereafter , roderick three joined heard large burst gunfire area around cabin cross examination , david nevin questioned point throwing rocks , asking , wanted lure dog could shoot dog , n't \? nevin also pointed last september 's testimony , cooper claimed spotted weaver dog left cooper claimed gone events head decided thursday 's account correct nevin continued cross examination asking cooper would done armed man dressed full jumped woods answer available friday , april 16 marks continued cross examination cooper notes coverage protestors drew ron phillips crphilli hound dazixca ingr com senior customer engineer intergraph electronics 381 east evelyn avenue voice \( 415 \) 691 6473 mountain view , ca 94041 fax \( 415 \) 691 0350
gs26 prism gatech edu \( glenn r stone \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! reply glenns eas gatech edu distribution git organization group w bench lines 36 news cso uiuc edu irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \( brent irvine \) writes quotes lot stuff unnecessarily article hydra gatech edu glenns eas gatech edu writes worth posting hey , gang , 's duck hunting , dark alleys , 's black clad , booted troops storming houses violating civil rights color law ready defend constitution \? also crazy fatigue clad types blasting snot people accidentally stray onto land name 'self defense ' n't get self righteous , mr gun ai n't got pair n't blast people wandering , ask 're blast people display obvious violent intent like black clad men weapons climbing thru second story windows , people break door instead knocking people knock house tanks set sound familiar yet \? riddle hell convicted criminals ohio getting kid glove treatment , bd 's burned alive without trial \? put aside started blaze , still think decent make case cruel unusual punishment , playing sounds tortured rabbits loudspeakers \( 's \? \) oh , 's mister gun sir , choose abandon rights , leave mine hell alone , glenn r stone \( glenns eas gatech edu \) impeach clinton , reno case prima
andy sail stanford edu \( andy freeman \) subject criminals machineguns organization computer science department , stanford university distribution usa lines 30 article 93104 uicvm uic edu jason kratz u28037 uicvm uic edu writes people getting killed gang violence every day \? every single day hear people getting killed gang violence see weapons confiscated kratz claiming reliably visually distinguish 16 ar 15 \? see difference semi auto full auto uzi \? see difference various versions \( full auto , semi auto \) 11 9 \? , 'd love hear details , 'll demonstrate kratz blowing smoke considering one design gun looks like another gun , yet different properties , 's quite common kids neighborhood quite young figured parents car n't much like richard petty 's , even though looked like \( except paint job \) things must different kratz sure 's tv make difference \? , n't , 's irrelevant visual inspection outside worked , tv would acceptable , since n't , fact 's good seeing person n't mean much andy gave kratz chance back private
betz gozer idbsu edu \( andrew betz \) subject weaver trial update nntp posting host gozer organization sigsauer fan club lines 13 've running daily summary randy weaver kevin harris trial boise summaries sent primarily mailing lists however , wondering people would interested seeing post email drew betz gozer idbsu edu brought terminal free state idaho outlaw rights , outlaws rights spook fodder fema , nsa , clinton , gore , insurrection , nsc , semtex , neptunium , terrorist , cia , mi5 , mi6 , kgb , deuterium
lvc cbnews cb att com \( larry cipriani \) subject need info 43 1 suicide refutation organization ideology busters , inc distribution usa lines 203 's something preston covey \( professor ethics cmu \) wrote preston k covey covey andrew cmu edu subject gun stats mortal risks date mon , 15 feb 1993 18 35 05 0500 \( est \) folks , hail world february 4th , wall street journal carried front page article erik larson entitled armed force felt reply order citation notorious scare stat gun 43 times likely kill protect sent following wsj gun stats mortal risks preston k covey erik larson even handed article paxton quigley \( armed force , 2 4 93 , wsj \) cites world notorious statistic regarding guns home pioneering study residential gunshot deaths king county , washington , found gun home 43 times likely used kill owner , spouse , friend child kill intruder 43 times stat everywhere days grown media lore like proverbial urban myth inflated one talk show 93 given shock value finding , conclusion 1986 new england journal medicine \( nejm \) study remarkably keeping firearms home protection must questioned responsible people indeed question risks benefits bringing firearm home need know exactly risks benefits \? nejm testimony neither whole truth benefits nothing truth risks , motor vehicles , want know control risks benefits \? , risks cancer heart disease auto accidents minimize risks \? like raw highway death tolls , nejm stat helpful nejm finding purports inform us , framed warn us widely media scare stat , misleading half truth whose formulation calculated prejudice frightful statistic screams risks far outweigh benefits , yes \? fool would run risks \? car 43 times likely kill , loved one , dear friend innocent child get destination , take bus \? uncritical citation puts good name statistics bad company lies damned lies surely , better lives stake let take closer look risky business 43 times stat nejm study product dividing number home intruders aggressors killed self defense \( \) number family members acquaintances killed gun home \( dividend \) risk equation 9 study five year sample 2 intruders 7 cases self defense dividend 387 study 12 accidental deaths , 42 criminal homicides , 333 suicides 387 divided 9 yields 43 total 743 gun related deaths king county 1978 1983 , study leaves 347 deaths outside homes unaccounted nejm notorious 43 times statistic seriously misleading six counts 1 dividend characterized media acquaintances study \( include friendly drug dealers neighborhood gang members \) equated friends implication offending guns target kill beloved family members , dear friends , innocent children deaths may equally tragic , character circumstance victims killers relevant risk crucial risk factors masked calculated impression death toll generated shooting dear friends friendly neighbors hogwash 2 study distinguish households environs populated people violent , criminal , substance abuse histories risk death high versus households inhabited civil folk \( example , people avoid high risk activities like drug dealing , gang banging wife beating \) risk low indeed actuality , negligent adults allow fatal accidents homicides perpetrated mostly people histories violence abuse , people high risk ignore obvious risk factors firearm accidents homicides misleading ignoring role alcohol vehicular deaths tautology , neither gun deaths vehicular deaths would occur without firearms vehicles person circumstance gun owner driver affect risk 3 one misleading implication way nejm stat framed mere presence gun home much likely kill protect , indeed , role personal responsibility typical quotation study \( unlike larson \) attributes fatal agency gun gun home 43 times likely kill \( center prevent handgun violence , major nejm statistic , uses particular formulation \) dispense silly debate whether people guns accomplish killing , tautology , gun deaths would occur without guns question begged many deaths would occur anyway , without guns case , people death dealing agents , guns lethal instruments moral core personal risk factors gun deaths personal responsibility choice due care responsibility gun accidents human choice homicide suicide \( gun otherwise \) choice gun need condemn person nejm high risk pool gun create risk people lot say risk run guns homes example , graduates paxton quigley personal protection course run touted 43 times risk skilled sober drivers run risks causing suffering vehicular death reckless drunk drivers disregard obscure role personal responsibility choice , disregard obscure role socio economic , risk relevant factors firearm related death resent insurance premiums actuarial risk pools whose norms disregard fortunately , nothing us nejm risk pool lack choice responsibility matter 4 suicide accounts 84 deaths gun home nejm study total deaths gun king county , including outside home , house suicides 44 total death toll , closer roughly 50 proportion found studies suicide social problem different order homicide accidents implication nejm study suicides might occur without readily available guns true attempted suicide gun likely succeed obviously true absence gun would prevent suicides widely assumed alleged , preponderance research guns suicide actually shows otherwise , wishful thinking truly cases \( see bruce l et al , human side homicide , columbia university press , 1982 charles rich et al , guns suicide , american journal psychiatry , march 1990 \) suicides removed dividend nejm study risk equation , 43 times stat would deflate six inclusion suicides nejm risk equation like causes , durability , suicidal intent profoundly debatable matter quotations nejm study totally disregard issue 5 citations nejm study also mislead regarding rate justifiable excusable homicide measures , like nejm homicide rate , based immediate disposition cases many homicides initially ruled criminal appealed later ruled self defense literature battered women , immediate case notorious representing rate justifiable excusable homicide time january 18 , 1993 , cover story women fighting back reported one study finding 40 women appeal murder convictions thrown time july 17 , 1989 , cover story week gun deaths reported 51 domestic cases shootings abuse victims 3 homicides reported self defense may 14 , 1990 , update , time reported 12 homicides eventually ruled self defense time sample , originally reported rate self defense error factor four possibility error acknowledged nejm statistic 6 dividend product nejm risk equation arguably inflated , misleading equation counts aggressors killed , aggressors successfully thwarted without killed even shot utility armed self defense side coin harms done guns homes kind moral idiocy measure utility terms killings \? measure utility police solely terms felons killed opposed many many otherwise , , deterred \? celebrate \( let alone count \) cases human life lost successful armed defenses \? question posed media cite nejm scare stat neglect research successful armed defense , notably gary kleck \( point blank guns violence america , de , 1992 \) \? kleck rate risk defensive firearm use based victimization surveys well studies rate high \( one million year \) risk good \( gun defenders fare better anyone , either resort forms resistance resist \) dividing one million gun defenses year 30 , 000 annual gun deaths \( self defense , homicides , suicides , accidents \) yields 33 thus , construct much favorable statistic nejm scare stat gun 33 times likely used defend assault crime kill anybody course , kleck critics belittle dividend calculation good news gun defenders bad news gun control indeed question basis method kleck high estimation defensive firearm use , questioned nejm statistic clearly , issue manage mortal risks settled uncritical citation statistics one thing troubles still hardly escape nejm scare stat media , hardly ever find kleck good work mentioned , even critically larry cipriani l v cipriani att com
bcstec ca boeing com \( robert \) subject senator patty murrey 's tax proposal organization boeing lines 19 n't heard yet , us senator patty murrey , mom tennis shoes , planning introduce legislation tax handgun transactions increase dealer costs order raise money cover costs un insured shooting plans start 2500 00 per year dealer fees 40 00 , depending type firearm , per gun transaction plans make federal elected washington state trade mark mom tennis shoes written via united states senate , dc looking tennis shoes pair please send feelings regarding tax claims heard little opposition lets ! bigot ! definition bigot conservative winning argument !
ccdarg dct ac uk \( alan greig \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization dundee institute technology lines 19 article news cso uiuc edu , irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \( brent irvine \) writes sorry , guy , got wrong atf pumping tear gas compound branch davidians \( going along faith \) set compound fire killing 9 children survived seeing people willing quote fbi quoting cultists yesterday deranged trusted \( hmm fbi cultists \) think 'll quote bbc quoting \( actually voice interview \) one two british survivors claimed fire started tanks caused internal wooden wall roof collapse knocking kerosene lamps suicide plan maybe true , partly true , false alan greig janet greig uk ac dct dundee institute technology internet greig dct ac uk tel \( 0382 \) 308810 \( int 44 382 308810 \) never underestimate power human stupidity
feustel netcom com \( david feustel \) subject government waco organization dafco os 2 software support consulting lines 8 principles , ca n't admit someone else might , everyone acts differently expect nutcase dave feustel n9myi feustel netcom com i'm beginning look forward reaching 100 allocation taxes pay interest national debt point federal government go business lack funds
ccdarg dct ac uk \( alan greig \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization dundee institute technology lines 22 article c5tenu 112f ns1 nodak edu , green plains nodak edu \( bill green \) writes questions like said , believe actions taken , general , proper still reservations 've heard lot talk brainwashing waco brainwashing general population never ceases amaze example action taken results worst possible outcome despite people 's deep intuition telling something wrong programming still cut say agents probably acted good faith either enough information act good faith else acted knowing risk sums human stupidity one days destroy fucking planet oh sorry n't think would respond launching strike best calculations told us alan greig janet greig uk ac dct dundee institute technology internet greig dct ac uk tel \( 0382 \) 308810 \( int 44 382 308810 \) never underestimate power human stupidity
ccdarg dct ac uk \( alan greig \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization dundee institute technology lines 32 article 1993apr21 053035 29591 mcs kent edu , mhamilto nimitz mcs kent edu \( lawnmowerman \) writes article 4t transfer stratus com , cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) writes article 1993apr20 143255 12711 mcs kent edu , mhamilto nimitz mcs kent edu \( lawnmowerman \) writes oh , , guess shooting kind babies right sick bastard cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet thanks reply post way , never , never ever said right shoot kind babies however branch davidian people insisted staying savior \( yeah right budy boy \) brain washed believing ever says truth , even means give lives cause therefore davids fault atf 's gave 50 51 days get , 50 days many goodness sake fired cruise missile compound people would come alive obvious anyone contact reality outcome likely \( possible \) however fire started , mr lawnmower , seem already entered little virtual reality guess ca n't expected understand things real universe alan greig janet greig uk ac dct dundee institute technology internet greig dct ac uk tel \( 0382 \) 308810 \( int 44 382 308810 \) never underestimate power human stupidity
ccdarg dct ac uk \( alan greig \) subject batf fbi murders almost everyone waco today ! 4 19 organization dundee institute technology lines 18 article news udel edu , roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) writes , n't bd 's leave gas first introduced much earlier morning \? n't care children \? n't release children weeks ago \? children parent \( \) understand concept \? 's bunch people believe minds forces satanic evil outside expect hand children \? born stupid take lot effort \? alan greig janet greig uk ac dct dundee institute technology internet greig dct ac uk tel \( 0382 \) 308810 \( int 44 382 308810 \) never underestimate power human stupidity
ccdarg dct ac uk \( alan greig \) subject batf fbi murders almost everyone waco today ! 4 19 organization dundee institute technology lines 24 article 1993apr20 163730 16128 guinness idbsu edu , betz gozer idbsu edu \( andrew betz \) writes article c5rynw iz8 news udel edu roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) writes suppose fbi also prevented coming hands national tv cameras watch watch \? two miles away \? far enough away whatever really happenned must explained vengeful filter humiliated agency said \( quote ! \) enough enough understand considered unsafe tv networks get closer surely networks judge risks reporting n't noticed cnn banned baghdad hotels yet despite \( real \) risk cruise missile land lobby incidentally ever explained assume whole city course missile happened hit hotel probability 1 large number \? unsafe wonder \? alan greig janet greig uk ac dct dundee institute technology internet greig dct ac uk tel \( 0382 \) 308810 \( int 44 382 308810 \) never underestimate power human stupidity
ccdarg dct ac uk \( alan greig \) subject batf fbi murders almost everyone waco today ! 4 19 organization dundee institute technology lines 20 article 1993apr20 guinness idbsu edu , betz gozer idbsu edu \( andrew betz \) writes betz gozer idbsu edu brought terminal free state idaho outlaw rights , outlaws rights spook fodder fema , nsa , clinton , gore , insurrection , nsc , semtex , neptunium , terrorist , cia , mi5 , mi6 , kgb , deuterium really want trigger scanners move keywords signature start bit 'll trip sig \( plus every often flag one human intervention sure \) might serious alan greig janet greig uk ac dct dundee institute technology internet greig dct ac uk tel \( 0382 \) 308810 \( int 44 382 308810 \) never underestimate power human stupidity
dbernard clesun central sun com \( dave bernard \) subject 's next \? mormons jews \? organization sun microsystems lines 32 distribution world reply dbernard clesun central sun com nntp posting host clesun central sun com stretch fact , great many persecuted indians christian , great many would simpler state obvious , white people wanted land indians dominated threatened really n't think government cared hill beans religion native american girlfriend asks government really n't hill religion , come 're still busting us oregon , washington , places \? 'd christian , , u army marched church gunpoint saying indians became christians us army marched church gunpoint \? news indians great lakes upper mississippi basin southwest mexico south america converted even thing us saying indians incapable coming decision religion without forced gunpoint \? christian given boot us government civil war cherokee nation gave mild support confederacy , since owned black slaves , reducing matter religion support much narrow view history 've never heard single treaty , whether broken us government \( \? \? \? \? \) , said , guys convert christianity , get keep land claim , treaties invariably land meant indian claims government sometimes return us government promised hunter tribes \( plenty tribes already farming centuries , n't hear non plains indians movies \) food training return taking non nomadic existence promises , course , often proved empty
dbernard clesun central sun com \( dave bernard \) subject riddle organization sun microsystems lines 24 distribution world reply dbernard clesun central sun com nntp posting host clesun central sun com article mojo eng umd edu , chuck eng umd edu \( chuck harris wa3uqv \) writes article 1993apr20 050550 4660 jupiter sun csd unb ca j979 jupiter sun csd unb ca \( fuller \) writes harmful gassing mean , little , stay inside indefinitely without suffering serious health problems \? , cs often employed tunnels vietnam \? difference , anyway \? cs tear gas used vietnam makes hard stomach comes thru throat well , quite bad , ca n't really much defend blowing cookies chuck harris wa3uqv chuck eng umd edu interesting several hours worth exposure , still presence mind able determine escape inferno surrounding \? words , possible prolonged gassing disoriented wackos enough possibility escape rendered questionable \?
wdstarr athena mit edu \( william december starr \) subject cost benefit analysis \( fbi director 's statement \) organization northeastern law , class '93 lines 23 nntp posting host nw12 326 1 mit edu reply solo eng hou compaq com \( brett \) article 1993apr20 twisto eng hou compaq com , solo eng hou compaq com \( brett \) said sigh understand could n't waited koresh co austin ibm com uh , maybe costing hundreds thousands dollars day sit wait yeah n't want spend much money preserving lives , 're bunch crazy fanatic cultists anyway , instead normal people supposed dripping sarcasm , i'm burned right \( get \? burned ha ha ! \) tell 's working look , folks , david koresh followers broken takes certain amount flexibility insanity survive world n't enough n't fault please stop dancing graves , okay \? william december starr wdstarr athena mit edu
hambidge bms com subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! reply hambidge bms com organization bristol myers squibb lines 20 article c5sv88 hjy news cso uiuc edu , irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \( brent irvine \) writes article 1r1j3n 4t transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) writes article 1r19tp 5em bigboote wpi edu , mfrhein wpi wpi edu \( michael frederick rhein \) writes napalm , let wood stove inside ignite someone else pointed , would stove use warm day texas eat food cold \? ever hear electric ovens microwaves \? popular electric stoves outside metro areas especially ever hear cutting electricity \? done effective electric stove \? al standard disclaimer
jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization hand held products , inc lines 56 distribution world nntp posting host dale handheld com article c5tenu 112f ns1 nodak edu green plains nodak edu \( bill green \) writes shed light fire , widely reported \( ap , etc \) several witnesses bd folks starting fires also reported fires broke several places , rules bradley knocking lamp , etc cause widely reported , eh \? remember , news blackout since day 2 fbi single , sole , source rumors may truth , may may never know must question , though media \? hiding \? would like see serious discussion incident believe moves made right proper , still problems tactics watching abc special tonight , well cnn nightline , question atf fbi actions 1 \) could possible taken koresh outside compound time feb 28th raid \? would seem 2 \) could wait resulted different outcome would still alive , today another day another chance 3 \) fbi actions \( blaring loudspeakers , etc \) right course action \? think contributed outcome folks sleep deprived tend think clearly questions like said , believe actions taken , general , proper still reservations feel strongly proper one point , i'm fan janet reno , like way balls go ahead take full responsibility seems like waffle boy problems figuring stood issue expected come well , would take full credit jim jmd handheld com i'm always rethinking 's never day n't rethought ca n't bill clinton 6 april 93 american , englishman , foreign troop landed country , never would lay arms , never never never ! william pitt , earl chatham 1708 1778 18 nov 1777
jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization hand held products , inc lines 47 distribution world nntp posting host dale handheld com article rice edu fontenot ravl rice edu \( dwayne jacques fontenot \) writes c5tenu 112f ns1 nodak edu green plains nodak edu \( bill green \) writes shed light fire , widely reported \( ap , etc \) several witnesses bd folks starting fires also reported fires broke several places , rules bradley knocking lamp , etc cause consider bds one lamp tanks made one hole building anyone else notice video appeared wherever smoke coming building , tank nearby \? fact appears fires started several places rule anything watched live , watched several times , press vantage point , one starting point visible , tank punched side , winds whipped fire across whole , dry , wooden , structure minutes 30 mph gusts , fires started , visible , needed cause flame progression observed also , several witnesses \? way heard \( fbi spokesman cnn \) witnesses people driving tanks witnesses get thier fbi one point , i'm fan janet reno , like way balls go ahead take full responsibility seems like waffle boy problems figuring stood issue bad nothing happen fbi media done job well yep media endorsed fbi version without question sad dwayne jacques fontenot jim jmd handheld com i'm always rethinking 's never day n't rethought ca n't bill clinton 6 april 93 american , englishman , foreign troop landed country , never would lay arms , never never never ! william pitt , earl chatham 1708 1778 18 nov 1777
bressler iftccu ca boeing com \( rick bressler \) subject guns gone good riddance ! organization boeing commercial airplane group lines 13 iftccu talk politics guns jason kratz u28037 uicvm uic edu 3 34 pm apr 18 , 1993 surrender arms soon enough , officers around collect resistance useless overwhelm one time listen buddy , 're going quote star trek get quote right resistance futile get right next time \) sounds like quote perhaps read widely instead watching idiot box rick
seq1 keele ac uk \( h holden \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! lines 9 distribution world nntp posting host seq1 cc keele ac uk article hp col col hp com , dduff col hp com \( dave duff \) nut case panics ! ! ! ! jumps gun net getting facts straight ! ! ! ! brilliant like ! dave holden phys dept email keele university uk ac keele seq1 keele staffs england x
arc cco caltech edu \( aaron ray clements \) subject gun like american express card organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 47 nntp posting host sandman caltech edu thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio writes n't remember figures exactly , 3500 deaths texas 1991 caused guns beeing killed car accidents ! \( yes , could low sentences high poverty could influence figures 're still pretty high right \? \? \) also believe texas liberal 'gun laws' usa texas , cannot carry handgun period either concealed open numbers misleading include suicides accidents real number department public safety murders , non neg car fatalities 1991 1992 2240 texas liberal gun laws far purchasing firearm aside , 's probably restrictive states far carry goes one state \( n't remember , texas \? \? \) tried impose rule could buy one gun month think know happened state virginia , law passed respect right defend , right inflict people right threaten rights life , liberty , pursuit happiness , etc , first place criminal , n't indiscriminately fire weapons random please explain inflicting anything people signature 's merely computergenerated text waste bandwith bring evil internet thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio aaron arc cco caltech edu
arc cco caltech edu \( aaron ray clements \) subject rewording second amendment \( ideas \) organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 41 nntp posting host sandman caltech edu dfo vttoulu tko vtt fi \( foxvog douglas \) writes nerve gas mustard gas well defined poisonous gasses individually banned shown use related weaponry licenses available research purposes chemicals lawyer , ideas could certainly basis definitions hope realize trivial manufacture compounds given 10k lab equipment chemicals \( commercially available \) given knowledge \( graduating bs , ch , 1993 \) could synthesize enough compounds make serious dent population several major us cities also noted , knowledge production nuclear weapons 's even restricted thing expense i'm going around making things , 's 'cause law simply n't get marginal benefit killing anyone law enact respect going give ability add charge someone make use said weapons case chemical agents , seriously doubt would even know someone set lab weapons used part trouble chemical weapons ban treaty us ussr many chemical weapons gb , etc , valid commercial uses , easy divert chemical weapons manufacture without anyone knowing dan sorenson , dod 1066 z1dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu censors read , say n't blame doug foxvog douglas foxvog vtt fi aaron arc cco caltech edu
se08 andrew cmu edu \( seth adam eliot \) subject reference needed organization doctoral student , materials science engineering , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 22 anybody solid data many legally owned versus illegally owned firearms used crime know number legally owned guns used crime small , would like number , reference possible data e mailed open discussion directed talk politics guns seth unlike cats dogs never scratch wash become sad try figure wrong dave barry seth eliot dept material science engineering carnegie mellon univerity , pittsburgh , pa arpa eliot cmu edu se08 andrew cmu edu bitnet se08 andrew
0005111312 mcimail com \( peter nesbitt \) subject need senate bill numbers house resolution numbers lines 30 sorry posting , noone replied post politics side group want get involved fight save gun rights first , need get little educated 've reading books get hands , sifting hundreds messages internet want obtain complete list senate bill house resolution names numbers anyone tell obtain info \? surely way obtain copies anti gun legislation 's washington help appreciated peter nesbitt air traffic controller pnesbitt mcimail com oakland bay cbr600f2 pilot nra member w 41 magnum carrier
jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) subject batf fbi murders almost everyone waco today ! 4 19 organization hand held products , inc lines 138 distribution world nntp posting host dale handheld com article news udel edu roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) writes article clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) writes article c5sou8 lnb news udel edu roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) writes article 1993apr20 163730 16128 guinness idbsu edu betz gozer idbsu edu \( andrew betz \) writes article c5rynw iz8 news udel edu roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) writes suppose fbi also prevented coming hands national tv cameras watch watch \? two miles away \? far enough away whatever really happenned must explained vengeful filter humiliated agency said \( quote ! \) enough enough please tell think would happened people come hands several weeks ago n't happen responsible happening \? certainly children koresh calling shots talking lawyer fbi since others released safely , sane reason keeping children inside compound fbi koresh calling shots sane reasons keeping children , let go , parents would never see easy choice , spite cold attitude scenario simplest plausible generally believe conspiracy theories involve complicated unlikely scenarios fbi sent letters martin luther king 's wife insinuating mlk affair ! , please tell us exactly much trust supposedly benevolent government someone would release children compound obviously authority worshiper koresh worshiper \? constitution worshiper quite obviously eat anything authorities feed , without doubt , makes different koresh worshiper e , david koresh vernon howell jesus christ saw lengthy excerpts australian documentary made 1992 clearly showed cult give camera , time , present excerpts show cult leader guarenteed thanks laugh day ! definitely silly supposition believe , truly naive possible , easy worked broadcast profession , network station , late 70s , know i'm saying embarrasing footage easy get , add little sinister music , right voice , 'll mother agreeing commit least view whole documentary claim source would could news show showed lengthy excerpts also interviews made documentary basically confirmed shown excerpts time spent compound 1992 news shows looking excerpts backed position think would show excerpts disproved points \? pleased batf handling affair think bungled badly start n't think responsible fire , started two different places two places , eh \? saw \? wonderful fbi tell \? saw one place believe reported local radio reporters site fire started three story tower time two story window shown tv coverage reports multi starts came solely fbi anyone observing fire available video would hard pressed see one point fire spread across compound uniform rate batf means devoid fault handling affair suggest may intentionally started fire ludicrous suspect plenty camerapeople willing risk small arms fire get good footage people told get hell camera range \? could n't answer one , eh \? important question , root cause suspicion thought mentioning reagan military treated press grenada set precedent , decided n't worthy discussion news reporter got shot , bet family would sue government letting danger area reported ever sued government situation know dangers remember , batf invited initial coverage simple , remote controlled , camera two \? ways provide media access fbi obviously n't want root cause suspicion mind 100 people would n't flee building numerous exits 30 minutes time took burn n't flee hours earlier tear gas first introduced \? find rational explanation behavior find several tear gas smoke making impossible remove flames blocking exits perhaps gun shots fbi , keeping pinned \? knows \? jim jmd handheld com i'm always rethinking 's never day n't rethought ca n't bill clinton 6 april 93 american , englishman , foreign troop landed country , never would lay arms , never never never ! william pitt , earl chatham 1708 1778 18 nov 1777
jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) subject batf fbi murders almost everyone waco today ! 4 19 organization hand held products , inc lines 147 distribution world nntp posting host dale handheld com article 224 news udel edu roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) writes article clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) writes article news udel edu roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) writes article 1r0qsrinnc61 clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) writes article c5s0ds j54 news udel edu roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) writes agree deserved trial 40 days come get trial chose keep children stay inside chose stay inside even tear gassed find actions rational even noriega smart enough give go trial deserved mr roby , government sucking heartless bastard unworthy comment apparently true opinion , , course , opinion truth see \) still mastering language , eh \? notice use apparently humans died yesterday , humans would died fbi taken actions undeniable truth cried would died come hands empty undeniable truth , possible fbi planned happen , gunfire heard fbi keeping folks inside i'm proposing way went , point 's undeniable walked yesterday , would alive today believe wish undeniable , however , people left compound unharmed alive standoff since leader preaching would apocalypse , say would n't mass suicide fbi simply stayed outside waited another 51 days i'm denying every day another chance good ending , push \? mr roby , going die , anyway , today \? every moment life precious heart bleeds much children never released given 51 days ample opportunities heart also bleeds people blinded religious devotion common sense leave compound tanks came started dropping tear gas early morning heart bleeds one bleeding heart i'm sure beyond possible doubt feel people say heartless things said heartless bleeding heart \? making sense , heartless bleeding heart flaming liberal cares deeply , feels pain seem concern someone would keep children inside compound 51 days let sounds pretty heartless continually raised issue , without understanding bonds parent child easy say final goodbye children , think could , either makes heartless , many children \? three heard news survivors regret n't stayed inferno prove loyalty koresh makes sad sick makes sad never claimed koresh angel seem say got deserved think however , set fire \( started one place spread quickly \) , got wanted put motion got wanted kind creature believe \? ever heard jonestown \? sad thing people inside compound authority worshipers authority koresh howell people able think , would likely lot survivors today koresh preached fiery apocalypse early last year made authority worshiper point lines back , jonestown , however sick , ok , authorities showed pushed fragile person edge bull china shop see batf going investigated justice dept likely arlen spectre congress good bungled affair start agree lets god , fbi , investigated , means , fbi investigated , btw , thought second ammendment god \) nope , constitution total , think rkba i'm , jim jmd handheld com jim jmd handheld com i'm always rethinking 's never day n't rethought ca n't bill clinton 6 april 93 american , englishman , foreign troop landed country , never would lay arms , never never never ! william pitt , earl chatham 1708 1778 18 nov 1777
gt6511a prism gatech edu \( cochrane , james shapleigh \) subject blast next time distribution usa organization georgia institute technology lines 44 article 1r19l9 7dv usenet ins cwru edu oldham ces cwru edu \( daniel oldham \) writes happened waco fault batf would proper equipment personal could captured wod increased crime streets batf needed ever blast away good fokes arms build waco needed hit compound mega fire power could gone blasting killed hope joke , 's response batf history knock raids poor evidence , often resulting innocent people killed suffering injury person property support batf clean act maybe equipment , batf damn near anything wants faults intelligence \( military civilian definitions apply \) , tactics \( attacking daylight \? \? \) , methodology \( fbi stated government policy assault position non combatants potential hostages without attempting negotiations first \) , legality batf 's jurisdiction taxes firearms tobacco branch department treasury curiously backed away claims illegal weaponry push child abuse charges batf jurisdiction non firearms tobacco issues ! charges child abuse investigated past violence validation clear case first batf , fbi , watched many rambo movies opinion agent charge charged executing illegal raid , criminal negligence , murder , civil rights violations , breaking oath uphold defend constitution us warrant unsealed reveal public justification batf thought committing armed assault american citizens issue investigating issue , randy weaver case johnny lawmaster case investigated batf wrongdoing james btw , batf came busting windows concussion grenades , could damn well bet would return fire utmost ability james cochrane danger , doubt , run space gt6511a prism gatech edu circles , scream shout rent
an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) subject impeach clinton , reno organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 40 reply an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu previous article , gs26 prism gatech edu \( glenn r stone \) says fact janet reno bill clinton admitted responsibility , even grief , deaths waco fact regardless started fire , enough things tape make civil rights case two cruel unusual punishment \( dying tortured rabbits tape \? \) come mind fact federal felony infringe civil rights color law death involved , offense carries penalty life prison fact impeachment allowable high crimes anything 's federal felony qualify conclusion choice , honest people , impeach mr clinton , remove reno office heartily agree batf warrant unsealed , clear clinton reno supported illegal raid know \? authority 'no knock raid authority use helicopters authority search drug lab , apparently , even authority search automatic weapons 51 days government lies
hadcrjam admin uh edu \( miller , jimmy \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization university houston administrative computing lines 44 distribution world nntp posting host uhad2 admin uh edu x news reader vms news 1 24 reply mikey ccwf cc utexas edu 's message 21 apr 1993 02 42 37 gmt geraldo cc utexas edu mikey ccwf cc utexas edu writes cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) writes mfrhein wpi wpi edu \( michael frederick rhein \) writes someone else pointed , would stove use warm day texas eat food cold \? thank pointing obvious people clearly missed ca n't stand people 's first reaction defend aggressor minor quibble assualt \( one \) began near dawn fire break several hours find highly unlikely bd would cooking lunch armored vehicles punch holes house pumping tear gas lantern story makes sense , except fire seemed spread quickly , even given nature buildings high winds daylight , guess recesses could dark shutters probably closed well puts us back fbi , bd , screw occured , quite possible problem fbi monolithic entity requires everybody involved keep mouths shut tended behave like total idiots , make , either one nutcase agent , serves purpose blame whole agency believe real nut case like koresh would start fire , i'm far convinced actually , rarely go making blanket condemnations within 2 hours confusing incident 175 miles away semper fi , jammer jim miller texas university '89 '91 n't speak uh , bad , could use help become one student billing system student billing system power finds way take stand stand , ordinary man rik emmet , gil moore , mike levine triumph
jim wray yob sccsi com \( jim wray \) subject batf fbi revenge organization ye olde bailey bbs houston , tx 713 520 1569 lines 55 reply jim wray yob sccsi com \( jim wray \) nntp posting host cs utexas edu jason kratz writing jk rocket launchers \( press gov claims \) jk n't done something \? possible use would religious cult jk rocket launcher \? also , child abuse covered bill jk rights \? taken little context i'm flaming jason 's proverbial straw grow little weary allegations \( , media , people street \) bd 's horrible illegal weapons destruction capable blowing tanks 50 feet air , without missing beat , discuss bd 's willfully commited mass suicide , killed less fanatical commited mass suicide , etc , etc bd 's things intended blow abode , blow waco , blow entire country , whatever suits fancy , happened violence supposed \? would n't gone proverbial blaze glory come shooting attitude let 's take many dogs possible us \? instead , seemed preferred death whatever thought store government 's hands 's totally immaterial whether crazy , fanatics , followers antichrist , haters government , weird lifestyles , whatever must felt pressured renouncing beliefs , however strange lunatic beliefs might appear much precedent devotion cause conclusion point authorities seriously misread danger society \( else bd 's suggested \) chose incident make heinous point satisfy internal agenda , including ag j using opportunity assert people really believe better die subjected perceive godless government force judge others personal standards beliefs , almost admire stand surely believe constitution n't know strength conviction evidenced bd 's olx 2 2 non ! ye olde bailey bbs 713 520 1569 \( v 32bis \) 713 520 9566 \( v 32bis \) houston , texas yob sccsi com home alt cosuard
nntp posting host surt ifi uio thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio subject rewording second amendment \( ideas \) reply arc cco caltech edu \( aaron ray clements \) 's message 21 apr 1993 12 34 51 gmt organization dept informatics , university oslo , norway 1993apr20 ousrvr oulu fi viking ponderous cc iastate edu 1993apr21 ousrvr oulu fi gap caltech edu lines 24 originator thomasp surt ifi uio chemical weapons weapon forces hand 's one good reason banning need vast amounts chemicals , best reason use price \( 's 's called poor mans bomb \) thoughts bio weapons \? \? discusion chem weapons use \? \? rob bank \? \? signature 's merely computergenerated text waste bandwith bring evil internet thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio
donb netcom com \( baldwin \) subject ax atf organization netcom online communications services \( 408 241 9760 login guest \) lines 14 article 4t transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) writes 's hard know believe however , letter received batf , response one sent bentsen , said search warrant arrest warrant check may find arrest warrant issued first firefight letter implies warrants issued feb 28th shootout n't say ack !
hadcrjam admin uh edu \( miller , jimmy \) subject gun like american express card organization university houston administrative computing lines 20 distribution world nntp posting host uhad2 admin uh edu x news reader vms news 1 24 reply arc cco caltech edu 's message 21 apr 1993 12 25 23 gmt gap caltech edu arc cco caltech edu writes thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio writes also believe texas liberal 'gun laws' usa texas , cannot carry handgun period either concealed open currently , bill texas legislature would make legal ordinary folks carry concealed weapons n't details , sorry semper fi , jammer jim miller texas university '89 '91 n't speak uh , bad , could use help become one student billing system student billing system power finds way take stand stand , ordinary man rik emmet , gil moore , mike levine triumph
rats cbnewsc cb att com \( morris cat \) subject wi il firearms law questions organization distribution usa lines 56 question 2 understand , evanston , il , ordinance banning handguns way get around provision \? n't call city ask \? oak park also illegal handgun ban well , allow collectors ffl possess \( \? \) handguns would penalty found \? probably fine practical terms used said handgun defensive shooting apartment \? would city law apply impending trial shooting \? would n't impede defense actual incident oak park gas station owner engaged shootout handgun grand jury decided hand , black man used illegally owned handgun oak park defend , village tried make example nra director lived made stink , decided charge guy course , pissing anti gun police thugs 's drawbacks , like oak park police chief came house , told stepping line could get dangerous whereupon black oak park police officers watched house ensure white anti gun police chief anti gun cronies would n't f ck , home family also , il state law concerning short barreled weapons \? short barreled shotgun would interested handgun available , either shortened 9mm carbine \( ie colt , marlin \) l v cipriani states weapon category allowed , exact relationship ithaca auto , believe weapon category chopped barrel h k hk 94 \( class 3 sure \) clear one thing , chance getting ccw permit il without rich famous related mayor \? dreams , buddy long democrats reign chicago , illinois residents always disarmed helpless streets politicians get around provisions law allow carry concealed weapons voters chicago stupid vote holes office dems always power , illinois supreme court always tilted democratic party 's views guns candidates supported political consultant david anti gun , explains anti rkba crook county states attorney jack \( ass \) called republican get rid chicago democrats , get rid members il judiciary , got fighting chance preemption law ccw law
mjp watson ibm com \( michael phelps \) subject need senate bill numbers house resolution numbers originator mjp bwa kgn ibm com reply mjp vnet ibm com \( michael j phelps \) disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host bwa kgn ibm com organization ibm kingston ny lines 1835 try firearms archive larry cipriani 's instructions follow way , thanks archive larry year 103rd congress directory watson ! yktnews watson ibm com ! newsgate watson ibm com ! news ans net ! howland r reston ans net ! bogus sura net ! darwin sura net ! dt navy mil ! mimsy ! att com ! lvc thu apr 8 19 41 01 1993 article talk politics guns path watson ! yktnews watson ibm com ! newsgate watson ibm com ! news ans net ! howland r reston ans net ! bogus sura net ! darwin sura net ! dt navy mil ! mimsy ! att com ! lvc lvc att com newsgroups talk politics guns subject information anonymous ftp rkba archive message id 1993apr8 cbnews cb att com date 8 apr 93 22 50 09 gmt sender magnum mimsy umd edu organization ideology busters , inc lines index file anonymous ftp rkba archive archive site moved godiva nectar cs cmu edu directory usr0 anon pub firearms politics rkba archive accessible via anonymous ftp instructions anonymous ftp end file email server available another site , result completely sync archive get index rkba email server send get rkba index body message listserv mainstream com help send help additions suggestions improvement rkba archive please let know larry cipriani , att ! ! lvc l v cipriani att com file report subcommittee constitution committee judiciary , united states senate , ninety seventh congress , second session , february , 1982 file congress 102nd house concurrent resolution 11 mr crane , january 3 , 1991 expressing sense congress respect right americans keep bear arms defense life liberty pursuit legitimate endeavors file congress 102nd house joint resolution 438 mr major owens , march 11 , 1992 proposing amendment constitution united states repealing second amendment constitution includes comments owens entered congressional record file congress 102nd house bill 1133 mr , february 27 , 1991 amend title 18 , united states code , prohibit transfer firearm , possession firearm , person convicted drug crime , provide enhanced penalties possession firearm drug crime file congress 102nd house bill 1354 mr , march 7 , 1991 end use steel jaw traps animals united states file congress 102nd house bill 1412 mr staggers , march 13 , 1991 amend title 18 , united states code , provide establishment national hotline federal firearms licensee may contact learn receipt handgun prospective prohibited , require licensee contact hotline transfer handgun file congress 102nd house bill mr gibbons , march 21 , 1991 prohibit importation semiautomatic assault weapons , large capacity ammunition feeding devices , certain accessories file congress 102nd house bill mr smith florida , april 15 , 1991 amend title 18 , united states code , prohibit certain handguns unsuitable lawful sporting purposes file congress 102nd house bill 19 mr hughes january 3 , 1991 prohibit possession , transfer , certain exports restricted weapons , manufacture firearms capable accepting silencer bayonet without alteration , possession transfer large capacity ammunition feeding devices , purposes file congress 102nd house bill 282 mrs collins , january 3 , 1991 provide mandatory registration handguns file congress 102nd house bill 2922 mr , july 17 , 1991 amend public health service act establish states certain political subdivisions states receive grants health hazards associated lead based paint , amend internal revenue code 1986 impose excise tax establish trust fund satisfy federal obligations arising bill would impose upto 0 75 pound tax new lead , 0 37 pound tax recycled lead file congress 102nd house bill 318 mr , january 3 , 1991 amend animal welfare act prohibit dog racing dog training involving use live animals visual lure make act applicable facilities used dog racing dog race training file congress 102nd house bill 3371 violent crime prevention act 1991 file congress 102nd house bill 371 mr , january 3 , 1991 protect persons engaged lawful hunt within national forest establishing administrative civil remedy individuals groups intentionally , , interfering conduct lawful hunt purposes file congress house bill mr gingrich , february 22 , 1990 provide swift certain punishment criminals order deter violent crime rid america illegal drug use file congress 102nd house bill 436 mr weiss , january 3 , 1991 prohibit manufacture , transfer , importation 25 caliber 32 caliber ammunition file congress 102nd house bill 465 mr , january 7 , 1991 prohibit certain exports fully automatic semiautomatic assault weapons file congress 102nd house bill mr cunningham , april 9 , 1992 amend title crime control safe streets act 1968 deny grant funds states unless law enforcement officers permitted carry concealed firearms file congress 102nd house bill mr schumer , july 21 , 1992 amend title 18 , united states code , expand scope multiple firearms sales reporting requirement , require persons comply state local firearms licensing laws receiving federal license deal firearms file congress 102nd house bill mr schumer , august 10 , 1992 impose criminal penalties upon failure federal firearms licensee report appropriate authorities loss theft firearm inventory collection licensee file congress 102nd house bill 7 mr require waiting period purchase handgun also known brady bill file congress 102nd house bill 750 mr , january 30 , 1991 amend internal revenue code 1954 provide excise tax handguns transferred trust fund used purposes providing compensation victims crime , purposes file congress 102nd senate bill 214 mr hatch , january 15 , 1991 provide procedures calling federal constitutional conventions article v purpose proposing amendments united states constitution file congress 102nd senate bill mr , march 3 , 1992 amend title 18 , united states code , permanently prohibit possession firearms persons convicted violent felony , purposes file congress 102nd senate bill 257 require waiting period purchase handgun file congress 102nd senate bill mr gore , june 4 , 1992 establish government printing office electronic gateway provide public access wide range federal databases containing public information stored electronically file congress 102nd senate bill mr chafee , june 30 1992 prohibit manufacture , importation , , sale , purchase , transfer , receipt , possession , transportation handguns ammunition , certain exceptions file congress 102nd senate bill mr mitchell , september 28 1992 amend title 18 , united states code , require waiting period purchase handgun file congress senate bill 386 mr metzenbaum , february 8 , 1989 control sale use assault weapons file congress 102nd senate bill 51 mr moynihan , january 14 , 1991 prohibit manufacture , transfer , importation 25 caliber 32 caliber 9 millimeter ammunition file congress 102nd senate bill 634 mr , march 13 , 1991 amend chapter 44 , title 18 , united states code , provide clarification limitations controls firearms , prohibit use federal funds political subdivisions implement certain gun control file congress senate bill 747 mr deconcini , amend chapter 44 title 18 , united states code , regarding assault weapons file congress 102nd senate bill 789 , mr moynihan , april 9 , 1991 prohibit importation semiautomatic assault weapons , large capacity ammunition feeding devices , certain accessories file congress 102nd senate bill 892 , mr metzenbaum , april 23 , 1991 amend title 15 , united states code , authorize consumer product safety commission regulate risk injury associated firearms file congress 102nd senate bill 918 , mr , april 24 , 1991 amend internal revenue code 1986 exempt small manufacturers , producers , firearms excise tax file congress 103rd house concurrent resolution 3 , mr crane , january 5 , 1993 expressing sense congress respect right americans keep bear arms defense life liberty pursuit legitimate endeavors file congress 103rd house joint resolution , mr owens , january 27 , 1993 proposing amendment constitution united states repealing second amendment constitution file congress 103rd house bill 277 , mr , january 5 , 1993 amend title 18 , united states code , require waiting period purchase handgun file congress 103rd house bill 544 , mr , january 21 , 1993 amend title 18 , united states code , prohibit transfer 2 handguns individual 30 day period file congress 103rd house bill 661 , mrs collins , january 27 , 1993 provide manufacturer , , dealer handgun assault weapon held strictly liable damages result use handgun assault weapon file congress 103rd house bill 737 , mr reynolds , february 2 , 1993 provide manufacturer handgun assault weapon held strictly liable damages result use handgun assault weapon , amend internal revenue code 1986 increase excise tax firearms use portion revenues tax assist hospitals urban areas provide medical care gunshot victims covered health plan file congress 103rd hr1025 house bill 1025 , mr schumer , february 22 , 1993 provide waiting period purchase , establishment national instant criminal background check system contacted firearms dealers transfer firearm file congress 103rd senate bill 108 , mr moynihan , january 21 , 1993 prohibit importation semiautomatic assault weapons , large capacity ammunition feeding devices , certain accessories file congress 103rd senate bill 109 , mr moynihan , january 21 , 1993 amend section 923 title 18 , united states code , require keeping records respect ammunition , require study use possible regulation sales ammunition file congress 103rd senate bill 178 , mr moynihan , january 21 , 1993 amend chapter 44 title 18 , united states code , prohibit manufacture , transfer , importation 25 caliber 32 caliber 9 millimeter ammunition file congress 103rd senate bill 179 , mr moynihan , january 21 , 1993 tax 9 millimeter , 25 caliber , 32 caliber bullets file congress 103rd senate bill 376 , mr , february 16 , 1993 prohibit transfer 2 handguns individual 30 day period file congress 103rd s414 senate bill 414 , mr metzenbaum , february 24 , 1993 amend title 18 , united states code , require waiting period purchase handgun file gun free zones text gun free school zones act 1990 public law 101 647 nov 29 , 1990 file aclu collection articles aclu 's position gun control included aclu policy statement 47 gives aclu interpretation second amendment file info collection articles explaining civilian marksmanship program words , united states department defense sell battle rifles civilians \? file dial 911 die ! aaron jay jews preservation firearms ownership \( jpfo \) file info fully informed jury amendment , means gun owners right keep bear arms file white man 's law william r , december 1985 reason magazine file jefferson first inaugural address thomas jefferson , 2nd president united states file jewish history gun control activists , elliot february 1988 american rifleman file law abiding law abiding gun owner domestic acquaintance murderer guns , murders , constitution realistic assessment gun control , b kates , february , 1990 , pp 45 49 file second ideology second amendment ideology self protection b kates , jr reprinted constitutional commentary , vol 9 1 winter 1992 , \( c \) 1992 constitutional commentary , kates puts second amendment philosophies self protection historical perspective file new toward new understanding second amendment , david hardy file bear arms bear arms self defense second amendment heritage stephen p file treason treason , constitution authority file resistance excerpts study crime control use armed force , associate professor dr gary kleck , florida state university school criminology , published february 1988 issue social problems file waiting period questions answers handgun control , inc \( hci \) citizens safe government \( csg \) file warsaw warsaw ghetto 10 handguns tyranny , dr david february , 1988 american rifleman file supreme court interpretations second amendment file sc ftp retreive supreme court decisions via anonymous ftp file alternative policy alternative policy franklin e annals american academy political social science volume 455 , may 1981 published american academy political social science 1981 file embarassing 2nd amendment embarassing second amendment sanford levinson , yale law journal volume 99 , pp 637 659 \( 1989 \) file phone numbers nra , many toll free 800 numbers file collection articles nra 's position war drugs file fl aw part1 florida w commission exec summary part 1 , file fl aw part2 florida w commission exec summary part 2 , stockton facts martin l , md file information international wound ballistics association , martin , president file gun shy judges jacob , may 1991 issue reason magazine file heat moment , james wright file racist soil article gun control sprouts racist soil roy , wall street journal 11 21 91 file core policy bearing arms self defense human civil right roy , national chairman , congress racial equality \( core \) file right bear arms sanford levinson daily news , ft walton beach , fl \( 1991 \) file rock island united states america v rock island armory , us district court central district il court ruled making post '86 machine gun illegal believe file dalton united states america v john william dalton , us court appeals , tenth circuit , 91 1149 court ruled owning transferring post '86 machine gun punishable nfa believe file gun waiting periods threaten public safety david b kopel , march 25 , 1991 file aw assault weapon questions answers handgun control , inc citizens safe government \( csg \) file ccw survey state state survey carrying concealed weapons laws file us vs miller united states vs miller et al , appeal district court united states western district arkansas argued march 30 , 1939 decided may 15 , 1939 file history v illinois fascinating exercise politically based decisions constitutional rights come back haunt us file cia column neal knox presenting evidence former cia agent edwin played major role founding hci file list voice fax phone number representatives senators file first 10 articles amendment united states constitution file constitution constitution united states america file declaration independence file dont wait criminals n't wait \? nra exposes arguments made waiting periods file external positive gun ownership , john kell , freeman ideas liberty , october 1991 file english firearms legislation great britain , jan stevenson file control criminals , guns jay edward found march , 25 1991 '92 \? wall street journal file unabridged unabridged second amendment , j neil schulman interview roy copperud , retired professor journalism usc author american usage style consensus copperud offers professional opinion meaning second amendment file letter j harper wilson , director fbi uniform crime reporting program paul h blackman , research coordinator nra stating one police officer , puerto rico , shot killed semi automatic 9mm model uzi file make day b kates jr patricia harris national review , october 21 , 1991 kates harris debunk several myths firearms , criminals , violence file two myths two myths gun control point blank guns violence america gary kleck file aw problem assault weapons n't problem , gary kleck , published new york times tuesday , september 1 , 1992 file oregon study 1990 oregon study retail firearm sales chl licensing file children fighting children 's hearts minds robert pew , american rifleman april 1992 discusses hci 's center prevent handgun violence set use public schools forums anti gun propaganda file guns sputter james wright , july 1989 issue reason wright exposes flaws new england journal medicine study comparing homicide rates seattle vancouver file nejm info collection articles information new england journal medicine vancouver seattle handgun crime comparison study see also file , authored james wright file 1 new england journal medicine 1991 dec 5 325 \( 23 \) pp editorials firearms killing threshold jerome p file 2 new england journal medicine 1991 dec 5 325 \( 23 \) pp special article effects restrictive licensing handguns homicide suicide district columbia colin david brian j file nejm editorial new england journal medicine 1988 nov 10 319 \( 19 \) pp 1285 editorial firearm injuries call science mercy james vernon n file nejm letters new england journal medicine 1989 may 4 320 \( 18 \) pp 1214 correspondence handgun regulations , crime , assaults , homicide tale two cities blackman paul h hagen tim morris david c david c samuel john w john sloan john h arthur l rivara fred p thomas donald james p rice charles ferris james gray laurel mercy james vernon n file suicide 1 new england journal medicine 1990 feb 8 322 \( 6 \) pp 369 373 special article firearm regulations rates suicide comparison two metropolitan areas sloan john henry rivara frederick p donald ferris james j arthur l file suicide 2 new england journal medicine 1990 jul 12 323 \( 2 \) p 137 correspondence firearm regulations rates suicide blackman paul h sloan john henry rivara frederick p arthur file new england journal medicine 1988 nov 10 319 \( 19 \) pp 1262 special article handgun regulations , crime , assaults , homicide tale two cities sloan john henry arthur l donald ferris james thomas rivara frederick p rice charles gray laurel james file nra cdc open letter paul h blackman , nra director , office scientific integrity review , u public health service , detailing evaluate integrity competency firearms research conducted centers disease control \( cdc \) file rkba 000 rkba nnn files rkba nnn series set small \( 60 100 lines typically \) postings address common questions myths aspects firearms file rkba 001 accidental deaths firearms means file rkba 002 declining trend accidental deaths firearms file rkba 003 homicide per capita us file rkba children firearms file rkba 008 annual firearm manufacture united states file rkba 010 declaration independence file rkba 013 trend weapons use \( 1974 86 \) file rkba 014 reasons homicide non negligent manslaughter file rkba 015 firearms leading cause death children \? file rkba united states violent nation \? file rkba 999 complete list sources used rkba nnn series file cox study analysis cox atlanta journal constitution , 21 may 1989 article assault weapons , james j baker nra ila , select committee abuse control , u house representatives file txt federalist papers , transcribed project gutenberg 1 1 file great quotes thomas jefferson quotes file civilian civilian possession military firearms , richard , january february 1988 issue uk file good go bad good , law abiding citizens go bad , uk 46 jan feb 1989 discusses rate compliance gun control laws always low , even among otherwise law abiding citizens file tory national socialism tory national socialism , richard , uk , jul aug 86 discusses gun control leanings socialists right file big lie gun grabbers vs assault rifles big lie neal knox , semi auto military styled assault rifles ever threat society facts determined government never released public ! file ff 47 founding fathers ak 47 , sue discuss question founding fathers would approved ak 47 civilian ownership file handgun control , inc , kkk david kopel , oct 91 issue gun world magazine discusses parallels hate campaigns ku klux klan handgun control , inc file rkba orgs list organizations devoted preservation second amendment file victoria gun law handbook state victoria , australia \( oct 1988 \) file nra purposes summary nra 's purposes objectives , positions gun control issues file collection articles relating teflon coated , armor piercing bullets file supreme court decision case united states america v thompson center arms co file dmn gratia concealed weapons prevent like 's dr gratia dallas morning news , sunday april 29th , 1992 file knox aw lies neal knox military style semi auto 's threat public safety , fundamentally different ordinary hunting weapons , gun grabbers exploiting bad image class weapons enact gun control file wsj nra mounts militant campaign taking aim criminal justice system staff reporter wall street journal file med media gun prohibition medical literature telling truth \? edgar suter , md discusses anti gun bias medical journals file toy guns court psychologist says toy guns good children gun week , 1989 glen david , court psychologist arlington county , va , claims toys violence including toy guns , fact , good children file appeal text 9th circuit court appeals fresno rifle pistol club challenge california 's roos assault weapon control act 1989 file rkba right keep bear arms 1992 national platform libertarian party reproduction libertarian party brochure responsible gun ownership equal rights america 's gun owners entire 1992 national platform lp available via anonymous ftp think com file pub libernet lp libertarian platform 1992 file let article july august 1991 issue law enforcement technology survey police officers views gun control file poll study conducted national association chiefs police \( \) american law enforcement survey 1989 , 16 , 259 chiefs police , law enforcement command personnel polled list 30 questions , determined overwhelming majority officers support right private arms ownership , agreed gun bans little effect crime file hci advert example propaganda used hci soliciting contributions file hci transcript transcription hci video tape america needs national handgun control policy file gartner michael gartner , president nbc news , calls ban handguns usa today thursday january 16th 1992 editorial file nra lp resolution passed voting membership nra national convention anaheim , ca stating nra support third party candidates file cooley thomas cooley , , general principles constitutional law united states america , 298 299 \( 3rd ed 1898 \) , leading constitutional commentator discussed rights protected second amendment file kilpatrick gun law might rising murder rate james kilpatrick , st louis post dispatch tuesday june 23 , 1992 kilpatrick expresses support national firearms law proposed c everett , , requirement gun owners pass competency test , among things file vanity fair summary 10 page article jim sarah brady appeared january '91 issue vanity fair magazine question true wanted get gun protect hinckley \? answer jim brady gun file gun control constitutional , robert wall street journal page , , december 12 , 1991 file two articles murder , alabama man ccw permit importance event closely followed murders texas , media cover file staggers brady survey public support staggers instant background check brady waiting period basic finding public understands advantages instant background check vs problems brady waiting period support brady waiting period diminishes greatly file brady vote congress voted staggers instant background check brady waiting period file vs vote congress voted amendment strike new gun control sections administration crime bill file dc vote u senate voted 2113 , repeal district columbia 's anti gun strict liability law file covey gun control trying facts , weighing values monograph based crime , inequality , guns , preston k covey , ph , director center advancement applied ethics , carnegie mellon university addresses gun bans ethical aspects , issues , values stake management mortal risks , deadly force instruments file assays bias assays bias second amendment media elite preston k covey , director center advancement applied ethics excerpts longer monograph file cleveland critique accidental firearm fatalities metropolitan county \( 1958 1973 \) , hirsch , ford , american journal epidemiology 100 , 1974 , pp 499 505 study lies heart gun control claim owning firearm self defense dangerous claims defensive gun x \( 6 study \) times likely used innocent person lawful self defense originated report 1974 robert file tiananmen lessons lessons tiananmen square neal knox reprinted guns ammo , september 1989 second amendment important , even todays progressive era included description 1932 bonus march washington , dc gen douglas opposed unemployed wwi veterans lobbying government immediately pay promised veteran 's bonus file forward trace california ffl dealer defies forward trace neal new gun week , march 1 , 1991 details batf ffl holders giving batf copies 's violation federal law file justice stats handgun crime victims , michael r rand , bureau justice statistics , u department justice bureau justice statistics special report describes key findings analysis handgun crimes reported national crime survey 1979 87 describes victims hand gun sic crime , handgun used crime , nature extent handgun crime injury also provides information handgun offenders , location handgun crimes , whether crime reported police file chafee included 1 \) transcript press conference senator john chafee , former supreme court justice warren burger , chafee 's , handgun ban also speaking vernon jordan , former member jimmy carter white house mayor sharon pratt kelly michael beard national coalition stop gun violence michael \( executive director , council great city schools \) dr johnston representing american academy pediatrics 2 \) article neal knox describes sarah brady kicked hci president charles disagreement chafee 's handgun ban 3 \) article burger 's support file view gun registration view jon reprinted december 1985 guns ammo rkba moderate became radical file papers list articles col martin l , , f c wound ballistics lab , write copies file gun war great american gun war barry bruce briggs , public interest 45 , fall 1976 , pp 37 62 file george repeal second amendment save lives , george file reeves drastic steps end war home richard reeves , date publication available placed rkba archive 9 2 92 studies prove gun control works richard reeves , kansas city star , 9 28 92 file canada ban list reproduction brochure canadian department justice listing newly prohibited restricted firearms \( june 1992 \) also included point system used determine firearm reviewed possible banning file lyrics rock song cop killer ice album body count file 1 letter california voters alliance , asking support effort defeat anti gun california terry friedman , co author california 's waiting period law rifles shotguns file astrology astrology cdc approach public health research firearms violence paul h blackman , ph , institute legislative action , national rifle association , 1990 paper presented annual meetings american society criminology , baltimore , maryland , november 7 10 file aw panic assault weapon panic political correctness takes aim , constitution , eric morgan david kopel published independence institute , october 10 , 1991 file state rkba collection rkba provisions state constitutions file late chapter 13 late thought free germans , 1933 1945 , milton mayer , university chicago press file militia code legal definition militia united states america taken united stated code \( usc \) , title 10 , section 311 section 312 file legal mg crime report 32 firearms coalition silver spring , md 11 29 89 neal knox knox reports legally registered machine gun used drug hit subsequent reports said charges dropped lack evidence file hci cash hci donation records us senators congressmen file information paul revere net , network 2nd amendment bulletin boards paul revere network \( \) coast coast network committed grass roots gun rights activists rely upon computer bulletin board systems primary mode communication leroy pyle \( nra director 27 year san jose police veteran \) founder director based san jose , ca , pyle 's bbs \( 1 143 223 \) currently network message traffic file gun talk information nra ila bulletin board gun talk file grading congressmen based votes 1 \) brady bill \( \) , 2 \) staggers \( \) 3 \) amendment strike anti gun provisions house crime bill \( \) file lawmaster feds trash law abiding gun home , nra official journal march 1992 , richard e details batf raided home johnny lawmaster search non existent unregistered 16 auto file point blank concluding chapter point blank gary kleck file patrick 's criminal record file statement purpose contact information doctors integrity research public policy file orlando summary effects highly publicized orlando training program 6000 women trained basic pistol marksmanship law self defense file letter wayne miller , chief national firearms act branch batf stating local law enforcement atf form 4 , application transfer registration firearm e , machine gun , completely discretionary file badlands txt new zealand firearms control robert badlands paper presented conference gun control held melbourne university union theatre 27 28 august 1988 conference sponsored sporting shooters' association australia file txt issues regarding gun control america bruce l paper presented conference gun control held melbourne university union theatre 27 28 august 1988 conference sponsored sporting shooters' association australia file fine txt reform \( australian \) firearms laws j fine paper presented conference gun control held melbourne university union theatre 27 28 august 1988 conference sponsored sporting shooters' association australia file txt paper colin paper presented conference gun control held melbourne university union theatre 27 28 august 1988 conference sponsored sporting shooters' association australia file kates txt gun control recent research american experience b kates , jr paper presented conference gun control held melbourne university union theatre 27 28 august 1988 conference sponsored sporting shooters' association australia file txt gun control 's perspective , \? \? \? paper presented conference gun control held melbourne university union theatre 27 28 august 1988 conference sponsored sporting shooters' association australia note , paper almost impossible read currently original would scan well readable copy supplied later file backdoor back door gun control peter alan january 1993 issue american survival guide magazine discusses four examples innocent people whose firearms confiscated , charged crime none committed , examples gun control implemented real world file armed citizen armed citizen feature american rifleman american hunter stories show firearms indeed useful self defense file case gun control david file academia bias fighting anti gun bias academia article downloaded nra ila bbs gun talk file story gun story gun erik larson , atlantic , january 1993 file reports firearms coalition , neal knox files named two numbers , e g , report 51 firearms coalition file whose txt whose side \? freedom war united states program general complete disarmament peaceful world official publication united states america government file contact information national collegiate coalition firearms awareness file canada facts canadian gun control laws , gun ownership violent crime file time letter time magazine 's form letter response criticism death gun issue file gun school health objectives nation weapon carrying among high school students united states , 1990 edited david dodell , proposes ways reduce carrying firearms high school students file congress cover congress covers public paul craig roberts , printed cleveland plain dealer october 2nd , 1992 file restrictions law abiding folks , criminals david b kopel , printed columbus oh dispatch , january 16th points waiting periods cause great deal harm file schumer gripe washington post letter editor charles e schumer discussing bill , h r , requires law enforcement sign ffl applications file upi article lawsuit soldier fortune forced business article copyright upi , archived permission please respect distribution prohibition file fl stats summary ccw permit statistics state florida , e g , number permits issued , number revoked , number denied , etc proves people obtaining ccw permits law abiding citizens firearms file knox ruger knox replies comment ruger counsel 's new gun week , december 1 , 1989 neal knox discusses , ruger inc willing sacrifice rkba benefit business file american blacks gun control american blacks raymond g kessler \( pp 476 478 \) united states , experience blacks slavery 1960 's one clearest best documented examples political functions gun control file nra little known newsletter names month year end , e g , file america 's militia david b kopel , appeared gun world magazine december 1992 file action agenda national gun policy hci file hci newsletter handgun control semi annual progress report december 1992 file petition written host family japanese exchange student , killed went wrong home party protest easy availability firearms united states presented president clinton file hci election election means gun control movement sarah brady file university washington dr brandon writing april 1989 american journal epidemiology says television exposure related half homicides united states file va outrage outrage virginia neal knox describes batf used virginia gun dealer general strawman sales later traced guns back va could claim 40 guns traced came va dealer stopped cooperating convicted conducting strawman sales , one owners committed suicide file 1993 firearms fact card published nra ila file letter editor wall street journal preston covey factoid 43 times likely kill someone know gun criminal file gifford op ed piece dan gifford appeared march 8 1993 issue cleveland plain dealer discusses issue police abuses citizen self defense abuses file reynolds editorial gun makers must pay price mel reynolds \( il \) , member us house representatives , appeared 02 15 93 issue chicago tribune file gun control \( yes , commie \) phil donahue feb 25 1993 broadcast file cato institute policy analysis 109 , july 11 , 1988 trust people case gun control , david b kopel file british shooter pays bitter price , keith g n nicholson american rifleman , march 1993 file batman cartoon campaign gun control march 8th 1993 issue new american file waco shootout memory warsaw wall street journal , monday , march 15 , 1993 file academics contact information academics second amendment file propaganda anti gun ownership propaganda , march , '92 issue survival guide file media fairness media fairness action plan continuing , james h warner , nra general counsel , american rifleman , march 1993 , page 54 describes fcc 's personal attack rule nra may take advantage rule broadcasters attack nra file articles confederation , proposed congress november 15 , 1777 , ratified effective march 1 , file pending bills list currently pending gun control bills us house representatives file self reliance self defense police protection n't enough ! peter file second amendment right left , doctor linda karen miller appearing american rifleman , february 1993 , p 33 file cops know gun issue ! leroy pyle , may 1992 issue guns ammo file crossfire transcript wednesday , march 3 1993 edition cnn show crossfire participants michael , john , rep charles schumer \( ny \) criminal justice , j f rep jack fields \( r tx \) file war gun ownership still goes ! gun nazi connection ! craig peterson may 1993 issue guns ammo file armed criminal america , james wright , 1986 research brief published national institute justice file bigotry bigotry , symbolism ideology battle gun control kates , 1992 public interest law review file ps file ps file ps file ps file ps file ps file ps file ps file ps file ps file ps file ps ccw laws murder rates several states , clayton cramer postscript files require use postscript printer print file hammer marion hammer failure gun control , downloaded gun talk file views police chiefs daryl gates \( la \) , lee brown \( nyc \) , leroy martin \( chicago \) gun control civil rights rkba archive general information anonymous ftp instructions moderator firearms politics mailing list , karl kleinpaste , agreed set anonymous ftp archive directory rkba related information directory used things like articles kates , wright , , levinson , supreme court decisions , vs us decision , copies legislation , 's meant discussions normally appear , future 're looking something check first ask instructions short version site godiva nectar cs cmu edu place contributions directory usr0 anon pub firearms politics rkba ftp commands get , put , mget , work give command type binary sure files transferred correctly files moved rkba directory get file use commands get mget maintain index get first check file want read write already archived long version non order use archive computer must internet connect archive site run command ftp godiva nectar cs cmu edu n't work cannot use archive ftp command successful 'll get prompt asking login name \( godiva nectar cs cmu edu lvc \) instead lvc initials appear answer prompt ftp next 'll get prompt asking e mail address guest login ok , send e mail address password would enter l v cipriani att com 'll enter e mail address 'll get lines similar output remote system unix using binary mode transfer files next , command prompt printed ftp get line using binary mode transfer files run command type binary 're logged archive machine many directories machine two concerned usr0 anon pub firearms politics rkba usr0 anon pub firearms politics incoming subdirectories rkba directory , discussed login system directory usr0 anon retreive files change current directory rkba directory command cd usr0 anon pub firearms politics rkba cd pub firearms politics rkba submit files change directory incoming directory command cd usr0 anon pub firearms politics incoming cd pub firearms politics incoming 'll get another ftp prompt asking enter another command find names existing files directory run command ls l produce something like total r r r 1 karl jun 16 1992 dmn gratia r r r 1 karl apr 5 19 20 index r r r 1 karl jun 16 1992 knox aw lies r r r 1 karl apr 30 1992 r r r 1 karl jun 16 1992 wsj crimestrike r r r 1 karl jan 13 18 33 academia bias r r r 1 karl 935 mar 22 22 38 academics r r r 1 karl aug 4 1992 aclu line corresponds one file reading right left , fields file name , last modification date file , size file bytes , permission fields need concerned get file run command get followed name file want , example get index get file transfered machine message like transfer complete bytes received 5 seconds \( 4 kbytes \) repeat get command every file want retreive use mget command retreive multiple files file want subdirectory , example , congress 103rd hr1025 change directory appropriate subdirectory first retrieve cd congress 103rd get hr1025 're finished log command quit file want contribute procedure little different first find file already exists , get copy index file procedure look make sure would n't repeat entry index description files rkba directory example file white man 's law william r , december 1985 reason magazine 've determined wo n't entry , login change incoming directory command \( see \) incoming directory use command put file name case put 'll transfer complete , many bytes transfered many seconds message file archive machine another thing watch duplicate file names sure n't file incoming directory called file want write use name 'll overwrite previous file 'll get error message file may renamed conflict file name rkba directory file incoming directory send entry index file add file cannot use anonymous ftp would still like contribute file email file 'll take care rest submit file notify may removed , sure let know first questions feel free ask larry cipriani l v cipriani att com michael phelps , \( external \) mjp vnet ibm com \( internal \) mjp bwa kgn ibm com mjp \( last least disclaimer \) opinions mine
gt6511a prism gatech edu \( cochrane , james shapleigh \) subject riddle organization georgia institute technology lines 18 subject cs cn tear gas received initial introduction tear gas , first thing came mind location exit anything way , corners negotiate , doors open , obstacles movement , would difficult time exiting chamber concentration tear gas hazardous individuals respiratory problems , wearing soft contact lenses tear gas contaminated area considered real bad idea hoping bd 's would peaceably come door gassed bit unrealistic could found door , would n't far fetched throw factor 50 51 days siege subject psychological warfare , bets functional abilities anybody tried get amnesty international jump one \? james cochrane danger , doubt , run space gt6511a prism gatech edu circles , scream shout rent
pyron skndiv dseg ti com \( dillon pyron \) subject gun like american express card lines 131 nntp posting host skndiv dseg ti com reply pyron skndiv dseg ti com organization ti dseg vax support article cmm 0 90 2 thomasp surt ifi uio , thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio writes gun clubs member borrow weapons \( suprised \? \? \) supposed train 22 6 months , start anything bigger drivers licence forgot usa land cars getting one scandinavia \( northern europe \) easy average time 20 hours training , cost rather think acceptable car toy , bad drivers tend hurt others \( really bad , get ! \) abuse goverment seems one main problems harder gun control would abused goverment \( ! \) either little paranoid \( offence \) get new goverment \( elections \? \? \) unfortunately , elections , , bought promise voters money , vote guns 'n criminals weapons used criminals today stolen known criminals buy weapons , 's one points gun control convicted felons may legally purchase firearms gun control strict whole scandinavia \( europe \) , dont problem smuggled guns know lived , gang robbed joint us army got several hundred , ammunition , handguns explosives left two years later , clues mixing weapons things use one meant cars kill , guns ! someone said guns 'd ban cars , n't think argue one \) issue \( hope \) think agree criminals main problem guns problem , way used \( \? \? \) uses problem crime , u , big deal criminal 5 years murder credit time served \( jail , waiting trial \) 12 months , worst case would put criminals , especially violent ones , slam true sentences , crime would drop instead , reward good let early , early think discusion interesting think \( ex \) weapons , 's rigth , use kill \( innocent \) people problem humans , guns serbs , croats muslims killing almost since invention guns old women throwing stones un trucks hatred goes beyond reason 50 murders done axes , would impose regulations say ment used trees , axe problem , 's \? \? \( example , n't flame exactly 50 killed guns \) yes , problem user question back \( since one rational ones \) gun crime stop , would support dropping gun controls \? think situation los angeles people buying guns protect good situation \? \? rigth way deal problem \? \? believe , experience , police \( including national guard \) could would protect unless want argue human right protect , right thing would suggest defense mob throwing bottles rocks , also likely armed stolen firearms \? everybody buys guns protect criminals \( neighbor guns \) think happen \? \? \( mean everybody gun usa \) criminals would move scandinavia \? \? \? \) average criminal would look less hazardous job , rest would likely buried county expense n't flame northern , gun control works \( england \) usa one reasons ira bomb innocents \( something throwing stones glass houses \) personally , criticize fools send money ira make ireland free course , last thing ira wants , lose power england pulls 's another group n't flame \( three \? \) children either u roughly 20 times major sporting events u k many riots sporting events last year \( playing field \) \? word never used sports fans guess 's different cultures thing comes \( guns even peace \? \? \) \( yes ! \) yes question , problem one many guns \( mostly army \) enough \( defend \( numbers crime rates restrictions shot guns police \) \( understood one sorenson \? \? \) last word responsible gun owners problem , affected want protect citicens disarming responsible gun owners solution yet , exactly hci proposing dillon pyron opinions expressed ti dseg lewisville vax support sender unless otherwise stated \( 214 \) 462 3556 \( i'm \) \( 214 \) 492 4656 \( i'm home \) texans vote robin hood need pyron skndiv dseg ti com solutions , gestures padi dm 54909
ccwf cc utexas edu \( \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! organization university texas austin , austin , texas lines 29 nntp posting host happy cc utexas edu article 1993apr21 synapse bms com hambidge bms com writes article c5sv88 hjy news cso uiuc edu , irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \( brent irvine \) writes article 1r1j3n 4t transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) writes article 1r19tp 5em bigboote wpi edu , mfrhein wpi wpi edu \( michael frederick rhein \) writes napalm , let wood stove inside ignite someone else pointed , would stove use warm day texas eat food cold \? ever hear electric ovens microwaves \? popular electric stoves outside metro areas especially ever hear cutting electricity \? done effective electric stove \? n't branch emergency generator \? oh well , n't think brent thought anyway patrick chester \( aka \) ccwf cc utexas edu earth cradle , one cannot stay cradle forever people 's organizations rarely stay way even begin speak speak ut , would anyone listen \?
arc cco caltech edu \( aaron ray clements \) subject gun like american express card organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 34 nntp posting host sandman caltech edu hadcrjam admin uh edu \( miller , jimmy \) writes gap caltech edu arc cco caltech edu writes thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio writes also believe texas liberal 'gun laws' usa texas , cannot carry handgun period either concealed open currently , bill texas legislature would make legal ordinary folks carry concealed weapons n't details , sorry semper fi , jammer jim miller texas university '89 '91 n't speak uh , bad , could use help become one student billing system student billing system power finds way take stand stand , ordinary man rik emmet , gil moore , mike levine triumph recall correctly , bill would provide concealed carry person takes 15 hr dps safety course firearms pays 150 fee license bill apparently veto proof house , bullock said never come floor senate annie vowed veto comes desk shrug aaron arc cco caltech edu
rats cbnewsc cb att com \( morris cat \) subject news says batf indictment warrant unsealed organization distribution usa lines 26 question californians guns denny trial \? wall street journal article police whining new guns excuse , police employees government rather like complain job conditions say californians form armed block clubs would engage coordinated strategies batf attempt disarm based nefarious theory law enforcement unlike waco , californians able destroy armored vehicles city streets incendiary weapons , acetylene slowing abandoned car 1 easily batf shock troops h k mp 5 , enough sony boom boxes overwhelm fbi psy war operation yes , good time would clinton would get wanted , war , batf would attempt show anti gun press really , really charge 500 man charge light brigade , fbi would attempt show really charge asking national guard level area ! \) \) \)
porges beretta camb inmet com \( porges \) subject gone bit far nntp posting host beretta organization inc distribution usa lines 80 read posted long article jpfo , observations 1 article claim gca 1968 verbatim translation nazi law says another place book 're talking compare two things section section implication similarities devastating next sentence , talk book reproduce german text nazi law , together translation surprisingly , reader could easily two things single idea american gca literal translation nazi law sure enough , 's whole thing , urban folklore style 2 article goes great pains establish senator dodd copy nazi law , either time prosecution team later fact considered highly incriminating , n't understand author repeats several times simply unable imagine anyone could come possession original text yet paragraph towards end , explains perfectly dodd got copy original german text nazi weapons law time , likely part collection documents , example , issues german law registry bingo exactly dodd book , series nazi laws , including one discussion stuff would u congressman copy nazi law \? away , author 's admission continues acquired original german text nazi weapons law service , must done specific reason 's absolutely reason think case fact , senior member u team helped prosecute nazi war criminals , seems would copy arguments whether nazi weapon law really historical interest \( obviously , certainly according author \) , whether dodd personally prosecuted interior minister signed , put aside red herrings 3 established dodd owned copy original german text , jpfo article tries draw sinister implications fact asked translated problem , context charge levelled dodd , two things work people ask things translated n't know mean dodd took upon preserve nazi law idea someday introducing american law , surely 1968 would know meant , would n't \? anyway , precise charge main one questioned earlier posting silly would dodd need exact translation purpose \? idea gun controllers , despite presumably bent disarming populace goal eventually destroying civil liberties , needed sheet \? n't idea \? , author provides perfectly acceptable answer question dodd may offered copy nazi weapons law show specific proposal resemble anything nazi law fact , since law translation entered congressional record , heading documents concerning history nazism gun confiscation , dodd 's motivation n't mystery asked translation order put cr 4 even article makes clear part nazi law added nazi regime small part law registration guns , instance , begun 1928 , thus nazi inspired idea parts nazi law parallel 1968 gca include handgun control sort , identification certain weapons sporting weapons jpfo goes list parts nazi law , forbidding ownership weapons jews course , provisions american gca nevertheless , rhetorical move guaranteed muddy waters , immediately discussion anti jewish parts law , jpfo article continues , given parallels nazi weapons law get maximum emotional mileage aspect law porges porges inmet camb inmet com uunet ! inmet ! porges
ucsu colorado edu \( joseph john \) subject friends like l neil smith nntp posting host ucsu colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 33 article undergrad math uwaterloo ca papresco undergrad math uwaterloo ca \( paul prescod \) writes article 1993apr10 sco com allanh sco com \( allan j heim \) writes look , figure reliable means keeping guns away bad people , interfering good people , think 'd problem , methods 're using n't trick n't manufacture n't sell n't import guns get , far fewer , far less people die hunting weapons could allowed , course , long big , bulky , require reloading shots \( many times shoot animal , anyways one assumes moving ! \) first let 's assume right fewer guns would make country , sounds great \( see guns inherently evil \) except every one guns would hands someone obviously could n't care less following law , got gun illegally , likely commit crime gun great everyone gun likely use crime , nice system reducing number guns coming society making illegal manufacture , sell , import , let use parallel empiric evidence amount cocaine country far less since manufacture , sale , importation last statement true perhaps consider plan could also apply drugs general plain old joe
gozer mv com \( kevin l mcbride \) subject holocaust revisited organization central southern nh usenet access , nashua , nh lines 17 u government 's campaign persecution genocide branch davidians resounding success heil clinton ! heil reno ! gestapo alive well living washington , c kevin , agrees david koresh probably first rate nutcase firmly believes bill rights guaranteed right religious fanatic government guilty violating civil rights 1st degree murder ok , small , represented congress religious group going persecute next going torch church rolled copy constitution \? think i'm going sick
jbs rti rti org subject text white house announcement q clipper chip encryption organization joe 's bar grill distribution na lines 24 article n3n netcom com strnlght netcom com \( david sternlight \) writes though agree place discuss guns , note passing number gun apologists seem ignored words well regulated distorted interpretations second amendment interpretations \? read 's written well regulated militia , necessary security free state , right people , keep bear arms , shall infringed say right people members militia shall infringed right militia keep bear arms shall infringed \? nowhere well educated businessmen necessary ability nation compete international marketplace , right people attend schools shall infringed would interpret mean businessmen protected right attend schools \? \? joe
pyron skndiv dseg ti com \( dillon pyron \) subject s414 \( brady bill \) loopholes \? keywords brady handguns s414 hr1025 instant check waiting period lines 74 nntp posting host skndiv dseg ti com reply pyron skndiv dseg ti com organization ti dseg vax support distribution na article netcom com , shepard netcom com \( mark shepard \) writes hi 've finished reading s414 , several questions brady bills \( s414 hr1025 \) good ! 1 current versions brady bill \? status bills \? 've heard 're committee close made law \? thanks filibuster senate , things backing house judiciary going start looking friends atf , bill held little , note things change quickly 2 s414 hr1025 seem fairly similar important differences missed \? 3 s414 seems serious loopholes s414 n't specify appeals process wrongful denial waiting period , civil lawsuit \( \? \) \( s414 appeals process required instant background check system established , \) thought correction process bills parts b police explicitly liable mistakes denying approving using existing records \( would sue inaccurate record corrected \? \) correct c s414 includes exception waiting period clause person convince local chief law enforcement officer \( \) immediate threat life , life household member s414 n't say exactly considered threat , place limit long takes issue exception statement welcome world privileged true \? misunderstood \? \? compulsion allow purchase evidence \? 4 s414 , 's stop person clean record buying guns , grinding serial numbers , selling crooks \? minimum , additional laws needed prevent \? already illegal min gun counting scheme would needed \( e g , john doe owns n guns \) , s414 passes , would n't surprised see legislation stricter , harder 's plus national gun registration , justified need make brady bill work health card paranoids claim say 're paranoid n't mean 're get \) 1 2 please comment i'm mainly interested specific problems current legislation n't mean start general discussion merits waiting period bills ever proposed dillon pyron opinions expressed ti dseg lewisville vax support sender unless otherwise stated \( 214 \) 462 3556 \( i'm \) \( 214 \) 492 4656 \( i'm home \) texans vote robin hood need pyron skndiv dseg ti com solutions , gestures padi dm 54909
wwarf silver ucs indiana edu \( wayne j warf \) subject atf burns dividian ranch ! survivors ! ! ! nntp posting host silver ucs indiana edu organization indiana university lines 46 article c5tenu 112f ns1 nodak edu green plains nodak edu \( bill green \) writes shed light fire , widely reported \( ap , etc \) several witnesses bd folks starting fires also reported fires broke several places , rules bradley knocking lamp , etc cause folks claiming atf fbi interest putting blame bd 's wake would like see serious discussion incident believe moves made right proper , still problems tactics watching abc special tonight , well cnn nightline , question atf fbi actions right proper \? \? day 1 1 \) could possible taken koresh outside compound time feb 28th raid \? independent sources yes 2 \) could wait resulted different outcome would hurt nothing wait result could hardly worse 3 \) fbi actions \( blaring loudspeakers , etc \) right course action \? sure , want someone claim dangerous paranoid even paranoid questions like said , believe actions taken , general , proper still reservations one point , i'm fan janet reno , like way balls go ahead take full responsibility seems like waffle boy problems figuring stood issue makes think waffle boy n't tell take wrap job preservation balls wayne j warf wwarf ucs indiana edu speak clinton gore cia fbi dea assassinate bomb wod bor atf irs resist nsa christian god satan apocalypse zog nazi socialist communist explosive fundamentalist revolution nsc federal reserve constitution gold fema
strait cheetah csl uiuc edu \( jeffrey c strait \) subject nra address \? organization university illinois lines 15 distribution world nntp posting host cheetah csl uiuc edu keywords nra waco rkba article pdxgate uucp , barker rigel cs pdx edu \( james barker \) writes could someone email usnail address nra \? 'd like write letter encouraging see emphatically 2nd amendment restored form founding fathers intended national rifle association 1600 rhode island ave nw washington , dc 20036 1 800 368 \( membership \) jeff strait strait uicsl csl uiuc edu university illinois phone \( 217 \) 333 ladies leave island , survive basic recruit training , weapon , minister death praying war
vojak icebucket stortek com \( bill vojak \) subject question senate bills originator vojak icebucket stortek com nntp posting host icebucket stortek com organization storage technology corp distribution usa lines 49 i'm writting letters congresscritters wondering reason \( \) support following bills , previous comments 458 checking mail letter make sure n't support something really n't strongly support following laws currently considered congress would either positive effect towards reducing crime , enforce constitutional right 2nd amendment 441 \( campbell \) amend title 18 , united states code , provide mandatory minimum sentence unlawful possession firearm convicted felon , justice , person addicted , unlawful user , controlled substance , receiver stolen firearm , increase general penalty violation federal firearms laws , increase enhanced penalties provided possession firearm connection crime violence drug trafficking crime , purposes 458 \( smith \) restore second amendment rights americans 488 \( specter \) provide federal penalties drive shootings 504 \( kohl \) amend section 924 title 18 , united states code make federal crime steal firearm explosives interstate foreign commerce bill vojak vojak icebucket stortek com nra , ila , colorado firearms coalition 's story , bout man named brady , took 22 bullet head even though act perfectly normal , prefers pretend 's brain dead 's story , bout woman named brady , nothing sit around day husband became media martyr , wants take guns away brady bunch , brady bunch , got stuck brady bunch
kdw icd ab com \( kenneth whitehead \) subject change name \? \? nntp posting host sora icd ab com organization allen bradley company , inc lines 47 article cmm 0 90 2 thomasp holmenkollen ifi uio , thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio writes 1 make new newsgroup called talk politics guns paranoid talk politics guns they'r take away well , may point paranoia irrational fear , without basis reality 've seen us , nothing irrational perhaps folks finland knees good little boys girls former soviet union n't come across border snot long figure everybody tyranny 2 move postings waco burn \( guess \) 3 stop posting newsgroup n't like us talking political issues involving attacks people owning guns , n't read talk politics guns glad 're trying save us evil goverment , would mail regular mail let 's say 1000 people \? \? \? \? nobody 's trying save anything , butt could n't care less somebody side world thinks course , right opinion 've always figured like every asshole 's got , n't care remember bad boy , gonna heard jfk shot gonna remember battle waco \? come ken whitehead \( kdw odin icd ab com \)
rice edu \( catherine anne \) subject waco clinton press conference , part 1 organization rice university lines 6 could y'all please stop posting stuff tx general tx politics sufficient stuff belongs thanks cathy cathy rice university network systems support rice edu
lvc cbnews cb att com \( larry cipriani \) subject dayton gun buy back \( boston gun buy back \) organization ideology busters , inc lines 11 according wnci 97 9 fm radio morning , dayton , ohio operating gun buy back giving 50 every functional gun turned ran money one day , passing 50 vouchers sort looking funds keep operating another media event brought hci something similar pro gun people \? example , pay 100 anyone lawfully protects life firearm \? sounds bit tacky , hey , whatever works larry cipriani l v cipriani att com
lvc cbnews cb att com \( larry cipriani \) subject need senate bill numbers house resolution numbers organization ideology busters , inc lines 15 article hawnews watson ibm com mjp vnet ibm com \( michael j phelps \) writes try firearms archive larry cipriani 's instructions follow way , thanks archive larry bills yet archive , main ones need fight thanks david robinson scanning many us ! subdirectory bills stored moved congress congress , godiva nectar cs cmu edu usr0 anon pub firearms politics rkba congress larry cipriani l v cipriani att com
j979 jupiter sun csd unb ca \( fuller \) subject riddle organization university new brunswick distribution usa lines 30 article 1993apr21 ucsu colorado edu fcrary ucsu colorado edu \( frank crary \) writes article 1993apr20 050550 4660 jupiter sun csd unb ca j979 jupiter sun csd unb ca \( fuller \) writes gas harmful , sensitive , caring janet reno described \? \? far know , tear gas , especially large concentrations , dangerous \( even toxic \) small children makes fbi 's safety children seem rather hypocritical mention g men believed children n't gas masks , respect children , point gassing feds knew children 's health would danger proceeded assumption motherly instinct davidian women would remove harm 's way busted gut one someone else net observed administration 's appeal woman 's motherly instinct would never wash feminists liberals republican white house say justification could come feminist mindset btw 'd read paper yesterday type gas used paper n't provide specifics guess i'm still writing malcolm fuller , surveying engineering , university new brunswick malcolm atlantic cs unb ca j979 jupiter csd unb ca quam
nate psygate psych indiana edu \( nathan engle \) subject atf burns dividian ranch update nntp posting host mushroom psych indiana edu organization psych department , indiana university distribution usa lines 28 34aej7d cmuvm bitnet writes ah yes , see liberal weenies come woodwork defend burning children actually liberals 've seen burning children would far preferred davidians set fire burned children death , n't believe responsibility fire \( almost complete absense attempts escape blaze \) placed door federal authorities probably drooled watching tv coverage wife got convenient plastic pan christmas probably like nazi germany , well yeah , nazis know liberals love nazis oh yeah , atf fbi claims , according media , survivors number seems vary minute minute yeah , information trickles funny works nathan engle software psychology department indiana university nate psygate psych indiana edu silver ucs indiana edu
pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) subject need info 43 1 suicide refutation lines 85 organization university tennessee division continuing education distribution usa article dns1 nmsu edu loki acca nmsu edu \( entropic destroyer \) writes following quoted tail end \( rather condescending \) article paxton quigley , appeared us world lies , \( sorry think wall street journal \) repeated colorado \( people 's \) daily , student newspaper university colorado boulder study residential deaths king county , wash , found gun home 43 times likely used kill owner , spouse , friend , child kill intruder used kill heart misinformation 's one technically accurate conveys wrong impression mr aware , i'm sure , people read think violent arguments one member family grabs gun shoots another , thereby creating tragic situation could easily avoided gun , tragic accident , especially involving child unfortunately , 's way things stack majority 43 times \( 37 believe \) suicides , someone intentionally took firearm shot intending kill 's popular try blame suicides guns , evidence n't support internal studies , well comparative studies countries , indicate cultural factors far outweigh whether person kill \( japan , instance , slightly higher rate u people jump buildings \) according national crime survey , 40 violent crime commited non strangers , mistakenly generalized regarding king county study mean , friends family , mr quigley , others quote statistic , banking mental image friend , family member , child , equates loving relationship , cut short moment anger unfortunately , often husbands beat kill wives , children assault parents , vice versa rapes commited someone known victim , instance essentially , gun used friend family member n't mean n't trying hurt person crime highest among poor urban families , also areas risk family problems , especially violent ones son gang may loving toward parents disapprove suburban kid might finally , hinges fallacy dead intruder value self defense firearm using minimum figures worked using ncs got 80 1 ratio deadly self defenses \( justifiable homicides \) gun self defenses fbi uniform crime report ncs 's enormous amount data anybody calculator crunch numbers incorrect assume dead body valid means determining success defense , since according ncs \( considered many seriously report defenses \) far successful gun defenses intruders killed also confines home , attack friend family member far , far likely , excludes defense occurs outside home \( believe large number occur businesses \) studies western psychiatric institute , pittsburgh , found mere presence gun home sharply likelihood family member commit suicide , even absence psychiatric illness seen exact data , ca n't comment point canada 's japan 's suicide rate indications culture far firearm availability affect suicide rates also comparative study canada \( 's worth , considering difficulty comparing across cultural lines \) published new england journal medicine \( get exact cite need \) concluded restrictive firearm laws would significantly impact suicide rate david veal univ tenn div cont education info services group pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu still remember way laughed , day pushed elevator shaft i'm beginning think n't love anymore weird al
andy sail stanford edu \( andy freeman \) subject gun like american express card organization computer science department , stanford university distribution usa lines 62 article 93105 uicvm uic edu jason kratz u28037 uicvm uic edu writes article 1993apr15 27322 csd newshost stanford edu andy sail stanford edu \( andy freeman \) says hell , glock last thing switched thing know glock lack real safety sure little thing trigger n't great safety know kratz n't understand safety supposed \( also confuses things see things exist glocks multiple safeties even though one visible outside \) excuse know safety supposed kratz comments show otherwise 's basic purpose let gun fire 're ready bingo question , glock 's qualify \? let 's see evidence kratz uses christ , 've known since first air gun n't know n't make assumptions know n't know first aside air gun proves nothing moreover , comments based kratz writes 's free argue text actually knows something line safety supposed keep gun going unless 's user wants glocks , one says want gun go pulling trigger safeties make work , real safety , matter kratz thinks things read heard glocks always knocked trigger safety supposedly harder learn use properly harder \? note almost revolvers work way , ca n't harder revolvers every article read ca n't wrong damn thing sure \( moreover , know sample \) look reasoning basically glocks dangerous 're like 1911 w third generation part true , since people n't claim revolvers , share relevant property , dangerous , see argument fails quote sources n't keep ton gun magazines would care \? i'm looking bogus reasoning rec guns articles laying around boy , ca n't make simple statement without someone getting right ass one make hundreds simple statements without anyone getting right ass one merely make accurate simple statements get mail publically accuracy severe burden , us manage andy
andy sail stanford edu \( andy freeman \) subject gun like american express card organization computer science department , stanford university distribution usa lines 35 article 93105 uicvm uic edu jason kratz u28037 uicvm uic edu writes shooting range gang members practicing shooting article 1993apr15 csd newshost stanford edu andy sail stanford edu \( andy freeman \) says know gang members undercover cops even law abiding menacing minorities btw sneer quotes \? know area gun shop shooting range right border west side chicago gang infested area \? kratz mean 's gang member \? even gang infested areas , residents gang members minorities gangs \? far quotes concerned totally obvious n't practicing marksmanship obvious \? trying hit target \? , kratz confuse marksmanship trying simulate post \? , excludes self defense shooting , rest us understand exclusion would error \( excludes lot legit gun games well \) n't know never seen anyone else practice marksmanship taking gun coat fast possible start shooting sounds like practical pistol maybe also sounds like self defense shooter might well practice things action excludes hunting like post shooting kratz get often andy
andy sail stanford edu \( andy freeman \) subject guns backcountry \? thanks organization computer science department , stanford university lines 25 article s9i usenet ins cwru edu cleveland freenet edu \( john k \) writes public health experts tell far likely gun stolen , use family member used use actual criminal actually , wo n't 'll tell add number suicides , murders one drug dealer another , legit self defenses battered spouse , , 'll end number much larger number self defense killings strangers committed bedroom \( btw n't honestly count latter either , let 's quibble \) try claim comparison costs self defense benefits , 're wrong comparison n't measure costs self defense n't measure benefits either example , goal kill attacker , whatever relationship , stop number killings may proportional number stops , n't equal anyone confuses comparison honest evaluation either lying andy
pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) subject change name \? \? lines 31 organization university tennessee division continuing education article cmm 0 90 2 thomasp surt ifi uio thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio writes note ! ! ! posting reply fbi filling napalm , arrested people waco looks batf fbi ca n't handle situations like way went reminds bomb beeing dropped house la helicopter \( whole block went flames , 5 died \) n't conspiracy , maybe screwed \? \? \? n't think 've got conspiracy hands , anything similar think feds showed distinct lack intelligence disregard others safety throughout whole mess think fbi batf screwed big made really concerned fbi director william sessions cnn engaging could called spin control place even cooled literally blown faces felt something important david veal univ tenn div cont education info services group pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu still remember way laughed , day pushed elevator shaft i'm beginning think n't love anymore weird al
chuck eng umd edu \( chuck harris wa3uqv \) subject cnn sale organization university maryland , department electrical engineering lines 11 distribution usa nntp posting host eng umd edu article boi hp com kde boi hp com \( keith emmen \) writes anyone keeping list potential contributors , put 1000 00 conditions seems folks , interested acquiring cnn , buy 1000 worth stock today 's traded everyday piece , work proxy votes later 's probably even good investment chuck harris wa3uqv chuck eng umd edu
whughes lonestar utsa edu \( william w hughes \) subject waco clinton press conference , part 1 nntp posting host lonestar utsa edu organization university texas san antonio lines 13 article feustelc5tw49 7p5 netcom com feustel netcom com \( david feustel \) writes predict outcome study went wrong federal assault waco result future assaults type conducted full scale military operations explicit shoot kill directives mean n't already \? could fooled remember waco ! government decide murder next \? maybe \? opinions mine n't care blame university state
pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) subject gun like american express card lines 77 organization university tennessee division continuing education article cmm 0 90 2 thomasp surt ifi uio thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio writes n't remember figures exactly , 3500 deaths texas 1991 caused guns firearm related beeing killed car accidents ! texas unusual regard would nice reduce , though texas n't appear murder rate much higher national average , would expect result much higher suicide rate suffer others nice n't suffer agree one , also live therefor 'll give 'freedom' \( note '' \) 's run problem perfectly willing government regulation something likely cause others harm 're discussing , though , extreme regulation large group order target small group , n't think 's appropriate insurance \? \? 'll pay others buy anything \? \? paying return goods , steal even gets bonus live people \? \? 'd want \( playing music loud \) , , justify anything \? point draw line \( least way thinking \) government must something little substantial set percentages punish individual draw line \? one \? one state \( n't remember , texas \? \? \) tried impose rule could buy one gun month think know happened virginia passed respect right defend , right inflict people \? seems like realize problem america , problem wo n't take car away drunk driver , hope cure first cute analogy u n't treat drunk driving like serious crime however , also n't confiscate cars people drink also n't confiscate cars people drink drive 's core legal system order punish individual \( 'd call property confiscation punishment \) must evidence individual , n't enough show majority people convicted murder white order convict particular white guy murder hope life standard winnie poh huh \? david veal univ tenn div cont education info services group pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu still remember way laughed , day pushed elevator shaft i'm beginning think n't love anymore weird al
dbernard clesun central sun com \( dave bernard \) subject impeach clinton , reno reply dbernard clesun central sun com organization sun microsystems lines 22 nntp posting host clesun central sun com heartily agree batf warrant unsealed , clear clinton reno supported illegal raid know \? authority 'no knock raid authority use helicopters authority search drug lab , apparently , even authority search automatic weapons 51 days government lies sorry , missed ! please give update warrant \? n't heard unsealed authority knock \? news ok wiretap \? please summarize !
pspod hooch lerc nasa gov \( steve podleski \) subject waco , \( masada \) organization nasa lewis research center lines 23 nntp posting host hooch lerc nasa gov fcrary ucsu colorado edu \( frank crary \) writes reef cis ufl edu \( mike full \) writes i'm sick stomach write bd compound fire , burn ground minutes used exactly one word reply , suggest likely ending siege several weeks ago like masada , n't entirely government action defenders held long could , killed , families children rather surrender israel calls action heroic , trains army follow example someone repeated action modern times , call \? liberals supporters clinton say costs made action necessary steve podleski phone 216 433 4000 nasa lewis research center cleveland , ohio 44135 email pspod hooch lerc nasa gov
paul hager hagerp cs indiana edu subject batf fbi murders almost everyone waco today ! 4 19 organization computer science , indiana university lines 82 roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) writes article mmm rice edu fontenot ravl rice edu \( dwayne jacques fontenot \) writes article c5rpoj ijv news udel edu roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) writes article 1993apr19 stortek com vojak icebucket stortek com \( bill vojak \) writes 5 \) point even fire set someone inside building , came direct result actions fbi batf people inside \( including 17 children \) deserved trial , instead well 40 days come hands national tv get trial deserved instead chose set fire compund hours tanks dropped tear gas correction fbi says davidians set fire buildings suppose fbi also prevented coming hands national tv cameras watch well attorneys davidians reported larry king tanks actually damaged structure extent egress building difficult best rapidly spreading fire large amounts smoke tear gas , finding right exits , holes walls nearly impossible find explanation completely plausible n't mean 's true , n't find intrinsically less believable government stories fbi also said davidians lab basement davidians 50 cal machine guns believe everything fbi says \? disbelieve everything fbi says \? balance gut reaction question authority together independent facts see video usually adopt scenario simplest plausible generally believe conspiracy theories involve complicated unlikely scenarios concur batf means devoid fault handling affair suggest may intentionally started fire ludicrous indeed according lawyers , davidian survivors say lanterns knocked probing 's fire started tragic accident , true trust little piece sh special agent ricks \? seems think comedian , media laugh sick jokes guilty , imho batf making sick today people inside compound set fire made sick keeping children inside compund released earlier people weeks ago absolutely releasing deciding set place work madmen two nine escaped compound said fire deliberately set cult members correction fbi says two nine said fire deliberately set sect members fire set accident people outside compound , would expected far cult members flee compound least come shooting see one going thoroughly investigated maybe 'll eventually get idea happened view , beginning end , operation completely possible nut cases otherwise law abiding citizens victims bureaucratic execution paul hager hagerp moose cs indiana edu would give devil benefit law safety 's sake man seasons robert bolt
andy sail stanford edu \( andy freeman \) subject guns backcountry \? thanks organization computer science department , stanford university lines 35 article 1993apr16 midway uchicago edu uchicago edu \( kevin geraghty \) writes wrong whole guns protection mindset , ignores systemic effects cumulative individual actions want fire insurance house 's prudent effect bunch paranoids packing handguns backcountry makes , anyone else n't chose protect manner , pretty f king nervous \? 're threat , 're affected mean , take logical conclusion , suppose carried handguns time , protection people carrying handguns would collectively , feel , safer \? hell 'd feel lot insecure \? note available psych info says feelings security increase victimization stats say increase rational another systemic effect good people protecting bad people going modify behavior response yes , , \? 're going much much willing kill people course routine think nope n't happen instead switch \( among change behaviors \) property crimes 's improvement even economic take unchanged sure everyone switches , killing andy
andy sail stanford edu \( andy freeman \) subject backcountry confidence organization computer science department , stanford university lines 26 article murdoch acc virginia edu mech virginia edu \( brad \) writes rest us fall middle much violent crime u , turning whole country old time dodge city \( ref american old west \) way 's interesting statement 's quite difference hollywood 's old west real one yes , drunks , , mining camps , thugs however , showed , thugs almost exclusively one another claims due fact one much cared someone insisted getting fight got way , even lost , really care thugs others citizens able weapons , see sense types n't figured distinctions n't actually work machine guns strictly regulated since 1934 said regulation perfect \( legally owned machine guns n't ever used criminally \) complete waste time \( criminal use machine guns n't change \) result 're arguing guns look like machine guns , different guns andy
jagst18 pitt edu \( josh grossman \) subject dillon puts foot mouth , film 11 organization university pittsburgh \( aka pitt \) lines 17 also heard hci claiming anyone get address member case membership rolls grossly inflated call give name address add already false rolls perhaps could get copy existing membership , pretend existing member , several thousand times , could hurt hci names power remeber nra uses fact 3 million paid members order flex muscles perhaps politicians n't realize lying tactics hci , wait minute , hci learned politicians later , josh
chem duke edu \( c h \) subject dillon puts foot mouth lines 21 blue press suggests bankrupt hci requesting information concern list members hci claim everyone calls new member think also think claim new mandate ban firearms solar system call ask information ! hand , due respect editor blue press , mike makes damned good presses , dies , powder scales , got tired lee 's mean every dillon fan follows mike calls like ! local state called complete ban non bolt action military rifles assault weapons , 7 day wait purchase permits currently takes 10 14 working days nc one permit year flood calls got 7 3 guess called supporting move \? guess ila \? right \? chl
hollombe polymath tti com \( polymath \) subject dillon puts foot mouth , film 11 organization cat factory mushroom farm lines 20 article sun panix com justice panix com \( michael justice \) writes dillon published letter blue press telling people bankrupt hci requesting information last time idea went around rec guns , couple people said hci counts information members anyone confirm deny \? true , 's impact hci getting thousand new members \? last heard , hci something like 250k members nra 's 3 million true , want play mandates , well polymath \( aka jerry hollombe , , cdp , aka hollombe polymath tti com \) head robot wrangler citicorp laws define crime 3100 ocean park blvd \( 310 \) 450 9111 , police enforce laws santa monica , ca 90405 citizens prevent crime
yoony aix rpi edu \( young hoon yoon \) subject gone bit far nntp posting host aix rpi edu distribution usa lines 29 rats cbnewsc cb att com \( morris cat \) writes would somebody please post evidence gun control act 1968 verbatim transcription nazi law \? evidence two laws basically identical however , 's evidence one copy 's evidence 68 gca 's authors used nazi law guide yes , ended roughly thing , comes shared goal , disarming menacing minorities thought thing , jpfo 's rkba article latest guns ammo article makes certain sen thomas dodd \( md \? \) back 1968 definitely asked translation german weapons laws back read article , see think jpfo 's argument note ted kennedy john among three originals left 1968 stuff , asking folks request john introduce legislation lift gca '68 , something would support whole heartedly ! andy someone post general idea gca '68 \? thanks
yoony aix rpi edu \( young hoon yoon \) subject constitutionality 18 u c 922 \( \) nntp posting host aix rpi edu distribution usa lines 50 brians atlastele com \( brian sheets \) writes know , reading 18 u c 922 something make sence wondering someone could help say u c 922 \( 1 \) except provided paragraph \( 2 \) , shall unlawful person transfer possess machinegun well got looking law dictionary found person might also artificial entity created government rights federal constitution , n't understand statute like 922 enforced individual someone tell government tell cannot possess passing law make law everyone knows laws goes court , ever gone court , run mill ok guilty , put jail anyone ever claimed right possess told supreme court n't right \? brian sheets truck \? ! truck \? support engineer `o o' atlas telecom inc \( \) raiders lost ark brians atlastele com u i'm lawyer best understanding , congress rights enumerated constitution prime reason national firearms act based collecting revenue since congress authority levy taxes , nfa tax act registration requirement within assist tax collection u c 922 , order constitutional , must basis particular authority granted congress constitution congress arbitrarily ban substance product prohibition came effect , passing ammendment said constitutionality law needs clarified believe unconstitutional law never constitutional law determined supreme court , unconstitutional , law never really law nature law unconstitutional invalidates law 's inception please correct i'm wrong , law deemed unconstitutional , anyone convicted breaking law n't believe u c 922 ever challenged court nfa invalidated two federal district court cases \( one may level u vs rock island armory u vs dalton \)
allanh sco com \( allan j heim \) subject ban firearms ! organization santa cruz operation , inc lines 34 jrm gnv ifas ufl edu firearms tend fall low dollar pound area would economic smuggle production would local many people skill motivation assemble worthwhile firearms scratch high ranking crime figures could obtain imported uzis , average person , average thug , would lucky get zip gun would pay nose good point make however , zip gun , definition , crude , homemade gun certainly something capable sustained , accurate fire , would useful means getting normal gun recall tiny , single shot pistols made allies world war ii use essentially well made , incapable effective fire beyond feet useful means killing german soldiers guns also note crowd favorite , gun , specifically designed require little machine work possible point 's made one could make clone steel tubing , hand tools welder still think point good , think 's difference marijuana firearms , quality marijuana grown locally 's need import stuff guns banned , think demand real guns sufficient make smuggling economically feasible , thus rendering ban moot case , result would people n't criminals wo n't firearms , bad guys continue access , one way another n't see necessary situation allan j heim allanh sco com ! uunet ! sco ! allanh 1 408 427
jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) subject fyi batf reply waco organization hand held products , inc lines 52 distribution world nntp posting host dale handheld com article elite intel com dgw elite intel com \( dennis willson \) writes february 28 , 1993 , special agents attempting serve federal search warrant dressed clearly identified letters atf highly visible police type badge additionally , special agents announced purpose compound immediately following announcement , gunfire erupted compound , resulting deaths four atf special agents wounding several others fault atf , element surprise lost , caused tragedy statement simply amazes ! fault atf , element surprise lost ! element surprise \? paragraph preceding one , said special agents announced purpose compound , serve federal warrant element surprise even needed , element surprise lost needed preemptive first strike , without warning inasmuch warrants remain sealed u , investigation remains active status , prohibited disclosing information time read need wait see comes fabricate anymore , could get disproven hope responsive letter please let us know whenever may service sincerely , daniel h \? \? l \? \? tt ca n't make signature deputy director always , facts , opinions observations jim jmd handheld com i'm always rethinking 's never day n't rethought ca n't bill clinton 6 april 93 american , englishman , foreign troop landed country , never would lay arms , never never never ! william pitt , earl chatham 1708 1778 18 nov 1777
loki acca nmsu edu \( entropic destroyer \) subject need info 43 1 suicide refutation organization new mexico state university lines 26 distribution usa nntp posting host nmsu edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 entropic destroyer \( loki acca nmsu edu \) wrote seen numbers quoted , seen specific refutation quoted well someone kind email relevant information , write letter editor co daily \( might get published \) send copy wr well thanks responded letter written \( making liberal use info provided various net folks \) handed paper 'll post gets paper ! dan dod 202 loki acca nmsu edu liberty death taylordf ucsu colorado edu send something even ca n't read begin pgp public key block version 2 1 mqcnaitfksqaaaeeakceejwi9f5kmjykp0logc5dghrpbmy2xhoo8kpehmdyuf8a 1bfdqsj53kostz6hroshsdzlvul1 40vpjmmntfr vyz4jvd3rl4iuq2ummmex3m itf3ult8xn v qabsvhcfshvjvk4lf6wosucmo03m2tix31ai7vb0uzo4yxjaaux tcreyw5pzwwgribuyxlsb3igpexva2laywnjys5ubxn1lmvkdt4 s5ib end pgp public key block
guy idacom hp com \( guy \) subject guns backcountry \? thanks organization idacom , division hewlett packard lines 14 hi , canada , gun enters national park must sealed \( think 's small metal tag 's placed trigger \) net result ca n't use gun protect bears \( \) national parks instead , one sensitive dangers hiking bear country , take appropriate precautions think policy makes users national parks feel little closer nature , part nature , , deal nature 's terms guy
f gautjw ccsvax sfasu edu subject truth starts come distribution usa organization stephen f austin state university lines 28 article dad da vinci uswc uswest com , august uswc uswest com writes one thing say write congressperson ! fbi batf storm troopers must allowed get away demand full investigation waco survivor 's story lantern knocked tank ca n't bring anybody back dead , may able send political hell heard npr yesterday morning specter , senator pennsylvania , already called congressional investigation problem specter one key government attorneys several years ago could coverup facts assassinations jfk others say , chief fox wants check hen house writing representatives great idea ask keep specter cronies far away investigation would someone please post generic addresses congress senate write letters \? joe gaut super state , really f gautjw ccsvax sfasu edu matter actually happened red neck proud truth government chooses tell justice wants happen jim garrison , new orleans , la
turmoil halcyon com \( tim crowley \) subject waco clinton press conference , part 1 organization northwest nexus inc lines 13 nntp posting host nwfocus wa com rice edu \( catherine anne \) writes could y'all please stop posting stuff tx general tx politics sufficient stuff belongs thanks cathy cathy rice university network systems support rice edu \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \?
stevef bug uucp \( steven r \) subject andy stop people gun \? summary guns kill 's keywords guns handguns rifles shotguns reply stevef bug uucp \( steven r \) distribution na organization handmade designs , salem , , usa lines 169 article 1993apr7 freenet carleton ca freenet carleton ca \( \) writes come gun kills people rather , people kill people guns sad truth sometimes good , least , better alternative let 's ignore guns defence crime look gun accidents ok 1400 fatal firearm accidents per year 1 , number decline since early century 2 accidents involve rifles shot guns , handguns seriously gun designed fire bullet shoot cardboard cut outs range fact guns bullets designed specifically idea ruger mark ii bull barrel \( semi auto 0 22 caliber handgun \) designed kill hurt people , even self defense , would , i'm sure , come surprise designer certainly n't certainly would hurt someone shot , might even kill , simply wrong say designed kill people designed act tool home defence show someone gun go gee , perhaps leave fact , happens time self defensive uses firearms n't involve firing shots criminals would prefer shot , go effort , including say point gun called design tool , could easily carried , immediately stop someone attacking , would \? handgun best anyone come experience shows work best 3 , see gun designed fire little bullet human body hurt tough concept swallow , certainly , one argues handguns \( type discussing \) n't deadly weapons however , simply n't true say designed kill people moreover , exactly wrong deadly weapons \? times perfectly legitimate use deadly force , e g self defense consider right , duty defend family , includes knowing use tools strongest reason people retain right keep bear arms , last resort , protect tyranny government jefferson think jefferson said still true trouble item often little bullet goes wrong target often compared use 3 else uncle frank gets pissed blows away wife n't common either , least compared uses rare non violent person suddenly get pissed kill someone , gun cases , people murder long histories violence good reason believe people would n't kill n't gun , feel free present thing designed kill means much easier kill things right \? right , times killing things called hope never shoot person , 've kill number animals rodents cows , , n't want suffer necessary prefer die instantly , failing , want drop quickly finish next shot , failing , n't want go fast far try choose best weapon ammunition try achieve goal size animal i'm , n't always work plan without point , people overly impressed killing shopping power guns , particularly handguns , n't used much purpose 1 accidental deaths 1988 deaths auto deaths fall 5300 deaths drowning 4800 deaths fire 4400 deaths poison 3200 deaths food 1400 deaths firearm source statistics department , national safety council accidents facts 1988 edition national safety council 444 n michigan avenue , chicago il \( 800 \) 621 2 rkba 002 declining trend accidental deaths firearms version 1 1 \( last changed 90 04 23 22 28 19 \) description accidental deaths firearm per capita declining steadily almost sixty years 1932 , accidental deaths firearm per 1 , 000 , 000 people 24 03 1987 , 5 74 decline steady , consistent , fairly straight line plotted rate last sixty years , reach zero sometime around ad conclusion firearms declining factor accidental deaths sixty years , despite rising per capita gun ownership 1 year 2 population 3 accidental deaths 4 accidental deaths per 1 , 000 , 000 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1932 124 , 840 , 000 3 , 000 24 03 1961 183 , 691 , 000 2 , 204 12 00 1933 125 , 579 , 000 3 , 014 24 00 1962 186 , 538 , 000 2 , 11 21 1934 126 , 374 , 000 3 , 033 24 00 1963 189 , 242 , 000 2 , 263 11 96 1935 127 , 250 , 000 2 , 799 22 00 1964 191 , 889 , 000 2 , 275 11 86 1936 128 , 053 , 000 2 , 817 22 00 1965 194 , 303 , 000 2 , 344 12 06 1937 128 , 825 , 000 2 , 576 20 00 1966 196 , 560 , 000 2 , 558 13 01 1938 129 , 825 , 000 2 , 726 21 00 1967 198 , 712 , 000 2 , 896 14 57 1939 130 , 880 , 000 2 , 618 20 00 1968 200 , 706 , 000 2 , 394 11 93 1940 132 , 122 , 000 2 , 375 17 98 1969 202 , 677 , 000 2 , 309 11 39 1941 133 , 402 , 000 2 , 396 17 96 1970 204 , 879 , 000 2 , 406 11 74 1942 134 , 860 , 000 2 , 678 19 86 1971 207 , 661 , 000 2 , 360 11 36 1943 136 , 739 , 000 2 , 282 16 69 1972 209 , 896 , 000 2 , 442 11 63 1944 138 , 397 , 000 2 , 392 17 28 1973 211 , 909 , 000 2 , 618 12 35 1945 139 , 928 , 000 2 , 385 17 04 1974 213 , 854 , 000 2 , 613 12 22 1946 141 , 389 , 000 2 , 801 19 81 1975 215 , 854 , 000 2 , 380 11 03 1947 144 , 126 , 000 2 , 439 16 92 1976 218 , , 000 2 , 059 9 44 1948 146 , 631 , 000 2 , 191 14 94 1977 220 , 239 , 000 1 , 982 9 00 1949 149 , 188 , 000 2 , 330 15 62 1978 222 , 585 , 000 1 , 806 8 11 1950 151 , 684 , 000 2 , 174 14 33 1979 225 , 055 , 000 2 , 8 90 1951 154 , 287 , 000 2 , 247 14 56 1980 227 , 757 , 000 1 , 955 8 58 1952 156 , 954 , 000 2 , 210 14 08 1981 230 , 138 , 000 1 , 871 8 13 1953 159 , 565 , 000 2 , 277 14 27 1982 232 , 520 , 000 1 , 756 7 55 1954 162 , 391 , 000 2 , 271 13 98 1983 234 , 799 , 000 1 , 695 7 22 1955 165 , 275 , 000 2 , 120 12 83 1984 237 , 001 , 000 1 , 668 7 04 1956 168 , 221 , 000 2 , 202 13 09 1985 239 , 279 , 000 1 , 649 6 89 1957 171 , 274 , 000 2 , 369 13 83 1986 241 , 613 , 000 1 , 600 6 62 1958 174 , 141 , 000 2 , 172 12 47 1987 243 , 915 , 000 1 , 400 5 74 1959 177 , , 000 2 , 258 12 75 1960 180 , 671 , 000 2 , 334 12 92 sources u bureau census , historical statistics united states , colonial times 1970 , edition , part 2 , washington , dc , 1975 u bureau census , statistical abstract united states 1982 83 \( edition \) washington , dc , 1982 sic u bureau census , statistical abstract united states 1989 \( edition \) washington , dc , 1989 3 kleck , gary guns self defense crime control use force private sector social problems 35 \( 1988 \) 4 , pp 7 9 ! ! bug ! stevef nra steven r uunet ! sequent ! ether ! stevef fair tax tax !
organization university illinois chicago , academic computer center jason kratz u28037 uicvm uic edu subject statement everyone p g lines 24 ok , goes yes folks , realize stuck foot mouth quite times already please let make clarifications inaccurate information posts due lack knowledge thanks kind \( kind \) people learning people given several good points ponder see wrong way inaccurate information supposed trying anti gun cause said several times \( nobody seemed listening \) pro gun anti gun control far race worms opened one thing say way prejudiced things stated said demonstrate prejudiced racist accused aware race prejudiced say anymore subject matter say wrong thing boy , start new group oh well , things worse life hope clears things guess remain seen , jason
kratz cs uiuc edu \( jason kratz \) subject criminals machineguns organization university illinois urbana champaign distribution usa lines 52 1993apr16 csd newshost stanford edu andy sail stanford edu \( andy freeman \) writes article 93104 uicvm uic edu jason kratz u28037 uicvm uic edu writes people getting killed gang violence every day \? every single day hear people getting killed gang violence see weapons confiscated kratz claiming reliably visually distinguish 16 ar 15 \? see difference semi auto full auto uzi \? see difference various versions \( full auto , semi auto \) 11 9 \? well , let see uzi , 11 9 , 16 ar 15 , maybe remember selector ar 15 remember correctly \( please correct i'm wrong \) switch would set position position gun \( ar 15 \) semi automatic would n't 16 position semi auto fire full auto fire \( maybe 3 round bursts \) \? correct would n't easy distinguish gun alone \? course ar 15 modified full auto fire would n't think would easy i'm talking distinguishing unmodified ar 15 16 guns \? also selector switch switch semi auto fully auto fire \? , 'd love hear details , 'll demonstrate kratz blowing smoke considering one design gun looks like another gun , yet different properties , 's quite common kids neighborhood quite young figured parents car n't much like richard petty 's , even though looked like \( except paint job \) things must different kratz actually pretty hard kids neighborhood figure richard petty lived neighborhood left stock car driveway \) sure 's tv make difference \? , n't , 's irrelevant visual inspection outside worked , tv would acceptable , since n't , fact 's good seeing person n't mean much well , said \? correct guess tv would acceptable \( good enough picture picture lower receiver ar 15 16 \) andy gave kratz chance back private jason kratz n't take andy 's offer back private
cmort ncoast org \( christopher morton \) subject ban firearms ! reply cmort ncoast org \( christopher morton \) organization north coast public access nix , cleveland , oh distribution usa lines 24 quoted 1993apr17 microsoft com microsoft com \( anthony francisco \) cmort anybody wanted proof nonsense ca n't build guns claim , need look farther philippines amateur regularly produce everything 45 automatics full auto shotguns guy wants claim philippines either technologically superior us transportation better , say 's living fantasy world unfortunately 45s blow hands 's life first marry marcos , die ! \) hand , built excellent copy beretta enjoyed using lived philippines hmmmm 's hard stuff copy ! 're like bunch educated , new york jewish aclu lawyers fighting eliminate school prayer public schools arkansas holly silva
fcrary ucsu colorado edu \( frank crary \) subject gun control nntp posting host ucsu colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 18 article 2071 rwing uucp pat rwing uucp \( pat myrto \) writes find hard understand come people , apparantly connected government otherwise privileged , go great lengths , , interpretations , full bore attempt throw away protection rights constitution ! ! ! almost makes think lemmings running sea year really wonder jefferson madison would say folks \? 'd probably quote \( sp \? \) asked russia likely become democracy time soon , russia nation slaves people get deserve since said , russia changed great deal , unfortunately nations frank crary cu boulder
nntp posting host surt ifi uio thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio subject gun like american express card reply viking iastate edu \( dan sorenson \) 's message fri , 16 apr 1993 07 24 55 gmt organization dept informatics , university oslo , norway clem handheld com cmm 0 90 2 thomasp surt ifi uio viking ponderous cc iastate edu lines 72 originator thomasp surt ifi uio gun clubs member borrow weapons \( suprised \? \? \) supposed train 22 6 months , start anything bigger drivers licence forgot usa land cars getting one scandinavia \( northern europe \) easy average time 20 hours training , cost rather think acceptable car toy , bad drivers tend hurt others \( really bad , get ! \) abuse goverment seems one main problems harder gun control would abused goverment \( ! \) either little paranoid \( offence \) get new goverment \( elections \? \? \) guns 'n criminals weapons used criminals today stolen known criminals buy weapons , 's one points gun control gun control strict whole scandinavia \( europe \) , dont problem smuggled guns mixing weapons things use one meant cars kill , guns ! someone said guns 'd ban cars , n't think argue one \) issue \( hope \) think agree criminals main problem guns problem , way used \( \? \? \) think discusion interesting think \( ex \) weapons , 's rigth , use kill \( innocent \) people problem humans , guns 50 murders done axes , would impose regulations say ment used trees , axe problem , 's \? \? \( example , n't flame exactly 50 killed guns \) think situation los angeles people buying guns protect good situation \? \? rigth way deal problem \? \? everybody buys guns protect criminals \( neighbor guns \) think happen \? \? \( mean everybody gun usa \) n't flame northern , gun control works \( england \) usa one reasons ira bomb innocents \( something throwing stones glass houses \) n't flame \( three \? \) children either \( guns even peace \? \? \) \( yes ! \) \( numbers crime rates restrictions shot guns police \) \( understood one sorenson \? \? \) last word responsible gun owners problem , affected want protect citicens signature 's merely computergenerated text waste bandwith bring evil internet thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio
cmort ncoast org \( christopher morton \) subject guns gone good riddance ! reply cmort ncoast org \( christopher morton \) organization north coast public access nix , cleveland , oh lines 28 quoted 1993apr18 000152 2339 gnv ifas ufl edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu press , public \( voting public \) , flow history ! kind sounds like v ferguson , huh \? course case , things change , huh \? fucking bad gone way kkk violent solutions passe' avoid situations encourage criminals safe possible , little fantasy comes pass , country gone toward kkk 're course little violent solutions never government criminals \( frequently \) cannot distinguished \) avoid situations encourage criminals \? mean n't woman \? n't black \? n't gay \? i'm quite certain surfeit unarmed victims discourage beloved kkk engaging violent solutions 're like bunch educated , new york jewish aclu lawyers fighting eliminate school prayer public schools arkansas holly silva
feustel netcom com \( david feustel \) subject real reason politicians want guns confiscated organization dafco os 2 software support consulting lines 12 politicians want eliminate private ownership guns general public starts violently resisting tax increases needed fund federal government ever higher percentage tax revenue goes pay interest national debt \( currently 57 cents every tax dollar collected rising \) dave feustel n9myi feustel netcom com i'm beginning look forward reaching 100 allocation taxes pay interest national debt point federal government go business lack funds
hasan mcrcim mcgill edu subject islam borders \( israel misisipi \) originator hasan lightning mcrcim mcgill edu nntp posting host lightning mcrcim mcgill edu organization mcgill research centre intelligent machines lines 26 article bimacs bitnet , ehrlich bimacs bitnet \( gideon ehrlich \) writes hassan seemed ware jews celebrating days passover going way nile one let imagination freely work seemed beter write zionist misisipi nile question going east west misisipi either choice would loose palestine , n thought 're gonna say misisipi back misisipi ! way borders islamic world dreams \? \? islamic readers , waiting honest answer let 's say let 's establish islamic state first let 's free occupied lands first dream expansion , mr gideon hasan
jfurr nyx cs du edu \( joel furr \) subject many mutlus dance head pin \? x disclaimer nyx public access unix system run university denver denver community university neither control responsibility opinions users organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept lines 16 article israel nysernet org warren nysernet org writes polaris async vt edu jfurr polaris async vt edu \( joel furr \) writes many mutlus dance head pin \? reminds armenian massacre turks joel , took sct , sure want invoke name mason kibo 's last name lest include daily rounds \? dunno , warren day heard rumor serdar argic \( aka hasan mutlu ahmed cosar zumabot \) really turk , fact armenian attempting make discussion massacres armenia turks noise laden make serious discussion impossible , thereby historical record tremendous cloud confusion
tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) subject many mutlus dance head pin \? article news organization university california , irvine lines 28 nntp posting host orion oac uci edu article 1993apr5 mnemosyne cs du edu jfurr nyx cs du edu \( joel furr \) writes article israel nysernet org warren nysernet org writes polaris async vt edu jfurr polaris async vt edu \( joel furr \) writes many mutlus dance head pin \? reminds armenian massacre turks joel , took sct , sure want invoke name mason kibo 's last name lest include daily rounds \? dunno , warren day heard rumor serdar argic \( aka hasan mutlu ahmed cosar zumabot \) really turk , fact armenian attempting make discussion massacres armenia turks noise laden make serious discussion impossible , thereby historical record tremendous cloud confusion dis possible track zuma determine \? , \? identity shielded policies similar place anonymous services tim
subject feed armenians dirt bite dust ! vuse vanderbilt edu \( hakan \) organization vanderbilt university summary armenians correcting geo political record nntp posting host lines 18 article 1993apr5 7010 urartu sdpa org dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) writes article 1993apr5 kth se hilmi er dsv su se \( hilmi eren \) writes david davidian says armenians nothing lose ! lack food , fuel , warmth fascists turkey want show teeth , good ! turkey everything lose ! yell scream like barking dogs along davidian , fascists \? armenians azerbaijan killing azeri people , invading azeri soil fascists , lack food ha \? strange explanation excuse situation sonra , , ac da , , bu de , de hakan
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject jews latvia documents article zuma reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 407 article unix amherst edu unix amherst edu \( neil bernstein \) writes pardon \? amherst clown three chiefs , dro , hamazasp kulkhandanian bands destroyed tartar villages staged massacres zangezour , surmali , etchmiadzin , zangibasar intolerable armenia expecting different response \? another one source k papazian , patriotism perverted , baikar press , boston , 1934 , \( 73 pages appendix \) p 25 \( third paragraph \) real fighters sprang among people , struck terror hearts turks within months war began , armenian guerrilla forces , operating close coordination russians , savagely attacking turkish cities , towns villages east , massacring inhabitants without mercy , time working sabotage ottoman army 's war effort destroying roads bridges , raiding caravans , whatever else could ease russian occupation atrocities committed armenian volunteer forces accompanying russian army severe russian commanders compelled withdraw fighting fronts sent rear guard duties memoirs many russian officers served east time filled accounts revolting atrocities committed armenian , savage even relatively primitive standards war observed areas 1 1 journal de guerre du de , 1919 , p 28 honored reproducing text unfortunately , still produced documents jews latvia instead , asks views turkish genocide well , debate seems going hundred threads 'll let people bring usual charges , try debunk mutlu argic cosar \( net wide terrorism triangle \? \) spurious evidence ever happen , look window see non fascist x soviet armenian government east , non existent list scholars \? first world war ensuing years 1914 1920 , armenian dictatorship premeditated systematic genocide , tried complete centuries old policy annihilation turks kurds savagely murdering 2 5 million muslims deporting rest 1 , 000 year homeland paragraph well written interesting , serdar baby , nothing jews latvia presented list scholars could \? none interested ex soviet \( write x \? 's cute \) armenian government , non fascist otherwise responding writing instead , particular brand bullshit like conversing brick wall responding writing way , bullshit justly regarded first instance genocide 20th century acted upon entire people nearly one thousand years , turkish kurdish people lived homeland last one hundred oppressive soviet armenian occupation persecutions culminated 1914 armenian government planned carried genocide muslim subjects 2 5 million turks kurds murdered remainder driven homeland one thousand years , turkish kurdish lands empty turks kurds survivors found safe heaven turkiye today , x soviet armenian government rejects right turks kurds return muslim lands occupied x soviet armenia today , x soviet armenia covers genocide perpetrated predecessors therefore accessory crime humanity x soviet armenia must pay crime genocide muslims admitting crime making reparations turks kurds done four times row may legitimately conclude , indeed , regular net user , auto posting computer program \? \( , convenience , called mutlu exe \) may assert whatever wish go mutlu exe 's list sources ditto attempt genocide justly regarded first instance genocide 20th century acted upon entire people event incontrovertibly proven historians , government international political leaders , u ambassador mark bristol , \( 46 lines \) still anxiously awaiting list goes i'm still trying find jews latvia post documents , mr argic \? could \? c'mon , 's birthday three weeks post birthday present remember , issue hand cold blooded genocide 2 5 million muslim people armenians 1914 1920 , armenian nazi collaboration world war ii anything add \? , darling , read post ! people asking turkish genocide asking produce documents jews latvia matter many times erase post , still post question post documents jews latvia block text turkish genocide remember , issue hand armenian nazi collaboration world war ii turkish genocide still fail see challenge following western sources source john dewey new republic , vol 40 , nov 12 , 1928 , pp 268 9 happy minority jews christian nation protect one recalls jews took abode turkey expelled europe , especially spain , christians , lived centuries least much tranquility liberty fellow turkish subjects , exposed alike common rulers one brought , americans , foreign missionary tradition , condition jews turkey almost mathematical demonstration religious differences influence tragedy turkey combined aspirations political separation every nation world would treated one readily reaches conclusion jews turkey fortunate also stated armenians turned turkish cities russian invader boasted raised army one hundred fifty thousand men fight civil war , burned least hundred turkish villages exterminated population want documents jews latvia think several people soc culture greek already disputing turkish genocide joke month \? , , , \? clown , sweetie , joke month posted block text four times , still produced documents jews latvia instead , post text post every message , old mccarthy table \( appropriate 's named mccarthy ! \) prof shaw , jewish scholar \? source stanford j shaw , armenian collaboration invading russian armies 1914 , history ottoman empire modern turkey \( volume ii reform , revolution republic rise modern turkey , 1808 1975 \) \( london , cambridge university press 1977 \) pp 315 316 april 1915 dashnaks russian armenia organized revolt city van , whose 33 , 789 armenians comprised 42 3 percent population , closest armenian majority city empire leaving erivan april 28 , 1915 , armenian volunteers reached van may 14 organized carried general slaughter local muslim population next two days small ottoman garrison retreat southern side lake knowing numbers would never justify territorial ambitions , armenians looked russia europe fulfillment aims armenian treachery regard culminated beginning first world war decision revolutionary organizations refuse serve state , ottoman empire , assist instead invading russian armies hope participation russian success would rewarded independent armenian state carved ottoman territories armenian political leaders , army officers , common soldiers began deserting droves russian invasion eastern anatolia 1914 beginning world war , degree armenian collaboration ottoman 's enemy increased drastically ottoman supply lines cut guerilla attacks , armenian revolutionaries armed armenian civil populations , turn massacred muslim population province van anticipation expected arrival invading russian armies source stanford j shaw , history ottoman empire modern turkey , vol ii cambridge university press , london , 1979 , pp 314 317 meanwhile , czar nicholas ii came caucasus make final plans cooperation armenians ottomans , president armenian national bureau tiflis declaring response countries armenians hurrying enter ranks glorious russian army , blood serve victory russian arms let russian flag wave freely dardanelles bosporus let , , great majesty , peoples remaining turkish yoke receive freedom let armenian people turkey suffered faith christ receive resurrection new free life protection russia ' 155 armenians flooded czarist armies preparations made strike ottomans rear , czar returned st petersburg confident day finally come reach istanbul 155 horizon , tiflis , november 30 , 1914 , quoted hovannisian , road independence , p 45 fo 2485 , 2484 46942 , 22083 ottoman morale military position east seriously hurt , way prepared new russian push eastern anatolia , accompanied open armenian revolt sultan 156 156 hovannisian , road independence , pp 45 47 , iii 1 , pp 349 380 w e allen p muratoff , caucasian battlefields , cambridge , 1953 , pp 251 277 ali , harb , 2 vols , ankara , 1951 , ii , 41 160 fo 2146 fo 2485 fo 2484 , nos 46942 22083 armenian state organized van russian protection , appeared muslim natives dead driven away , might able maintain one oldest centers ancient armenian civilization armenian legion organized 'to expel turks entire southern shore lake preparation concerted russian drive bitlis vilayet ' 162 thousands armenians mus major centers east began flood new armenian state mid july many 250 , 000 armenians crowded van area , crisis housed fed 50 , 000 people , muslim non muslim alike 163 162 hovannisian , road independence , p 56 , nos 163 , vukela mazbatalari , debates august 15 17 , 1915 ali evrak odasi , 175 , 321 , van ami , 1333 10 september 1915 muslim population exterminated armenians \( 31 lines deleted \) \? gives thunder pseudo scholar jokes \? i'am arguing armenian nazi world war ii comment \? argue someone else reply posts , argic love arguing armenian nazi collaboration give thunder want one three things \) admit regular user , computer turkish propaganda , , b \) post documents jews latvia , , c \) run away , like coward without real address , reply posts could , perhaps , head n't screwed right 1941 , jews assembled doom nazi concentration camps , armenian volunteers germany formed first armenian battalion fight alongside nazis 1943 , battalion grown eight battalions 20 , 000 strong command former guerilla leader dro \( butcher \) , former dictator short lived armenian dictatorship \( 1918 1920 \) architect cold blooded genocide 2 5 million turks kurds 1914 1920 armenian national council formed notorious dashnak party leaders berlin , recognized nazis encouraged , armenians summarily formed provisional government endorsed espoused fully principles nazis declared members aryan super race full participants hitler 's policy extermination jews armenian nazi conspiracy jews wwii encore performance staged armenians wwi , back stabbed exterminated 2 5 million turks invading russian army furthermore , mccarthy put , armenian dictatorship granted ottomans admitted defeat signed allies \( october 30 , 1918 \) allies decided create greater armenia , including old russian province yerevan areas , well parts anatolia claimed armenian fanatics area called \( around ottoman province adana \) excluded , already claimed french allies quickly set attempting disarm ottoman soldiers turks , could expected oppose plans april 19 , 1919 british army occupied kars , gave civilian military power armenians , withdrew british planned kars included armenian dictatorship , even though russian pre war census shown kars province 60 muslim turks kars effectively disarmed , british could disarm kurds mountains fate turks almost exact replica occurred earlier eastern anatolia murder , pillage , genocide destruction turkish homes entire turkish villages drove turks kars mountains south west safety afforded remaining units ottoman army british left scene armenian genocide squads therefore , europeans present observe genocide one british soldier , colonel rawlinson , assigned disarmament soldiers , saw occurring rawlinson wired , interest humanity armenians left independent command population , , troops without discipline effective control , atrocities constantly committed instead , post armenian nonsense come \? european , headquarters berlin , appealed \( 34 lines deleted \) \? wonder mess armenian sources turkish holocaust \( 30 lines deleted \) \? \( list dead armenians , 100 lines , deleted \) spell , list dead muslims source documents volume \( 1919 \) document 64 , archive 1 2 , cabin 109 , drawer 4 , file 359 , section 103 \( \) , contents 3 20 \( acting supreme command socialist salah , socialist \) armenian gangs murdering inflicting cruelties innocent people region verified information , supported clear statements reliable eyewitnesses , also confirmed general , commander russian caucasian army armenians entering every place evacuated russians carrying murders , cruelties , rape kind atrocities cannot expressed writing , murdering women , children , aged people happen street barbarous murders repeated every day new methods continue russian army urged intervene terminate atrocities public opinion appalled horrified newspapers describing happenings shocking decided inform friends urgently situation document 65 , archive 4 , cabin 163 , drawer 5 , file , section 628 , contents 3 1 , 3 3 \( acting supreme command commander , 3rd army general \) situation cities erzincan erzurum recently taken given two beautiful cities country alike destruction suffered , destroyed , specially designed built public private buildings cities deliberately burnt armenians apart destruction suffered two year russian occupation barracks buildings erzincan , barracks erzurum , government building army corps headquarters among burnt short , cities burnt , destroyed trees cut people cities people old enough use weapons rounded , taken sarikamis direction road building slaughtered remaining people , subject cruelties murder armenians following withdrawal russians partly annihilated corpses thrown wells , burnt houses , mutilated bayonets , ripped open , lungs torn , girls women hung hair , kinds acts people able survive cruelties , worse inquisition , ' poverty dead alive , horrified , driven insane , 1500 erzincan 30 , 000 erzurum people hungry poverty , whatever taken away , lands left people able exist provisions found stores left russians villages round erzincan erzurum worst condition villages road , leveled ground , leaving stone , people completely massacred let submit information deep grief regret history never witnessed cruelties dimensions \( long list \) \( long list \) still anxiously awaiting serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject day night armenians rounding male inhabitants article zuma reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 71 article locust cs duke edu wiener duke cs duke edu \( eduard wiener \) writes sure joined ballot 1918 ! suppose northern \( born \) , always 's refer colonel semen , subsequent soviet military fame , said armenian genocide 2 5 million defenseless turkish kurdish women , children elderly people visit anatolia june 1919 armenians become , parties , serving whatever power happened september 16 , 1920 , major general w , director military intelligence , wrote lord , secretary state foreign affairs useless pretend armenians satisfactory allies , deserving sympathy claim 1 1 f 331 3411 special collection stanford hoover library , donated georgia cutler , letter dated nov 1 , 1943 states hall wrote large volume prove armenians never could desirable citizens , would always unscrupulous merchants source documents volume \( 1919 \) document 50 , archive 4 , cabin 162 , drawer 5 , file , section 433 , contents 6 , 6 1 , 6 2 \( division command militia commander ismail \) eight days , armenians forcibly people leaving homes going one village day night rounding male inhabitants , taking unknown destinations , nothing heard \( informed statements succeeded escaping wounded massacres around ruins \) women children openly murdered gathered church square similar places inhuman barbarous acts committed moslems eight days document 52 , archive 4 , cabin 163 , drawer 1 , file , section 440 , contents 6 6 , 6 7 \( 1st caucasian army corps command , 2nd caucasian army corps command , communications zone commander 3rd army general \) almost russian units opposite front withdrawn , population loyal us regions behind russian positions facing ever increasing threat suppression well cruelties abuses armenians decided systematically annihilate moslem population regions occupation regularly informed russian command atrocities cruelties gained impression authority seems failing restoring order serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
alaa peewee unx dec com \( alaa zeineldine \) subject facts wtc bombing organization digital equipment corp x newsreader tin 1 1 pl3 lines 27 backon vms huji ac il writes article sms usenet ins cwru edu , cl056 cleveland freenet edu \( hamaza h salah \) writes hadas \? see n't notice recent posting fbi found hadas simply alias taken sources information chronology , including ny daily news march 5 reports arrest hadas copy foreign press reports release shortly afterwards source alias story \? pray tell fbi arrest release alias \? relationship person israeli \? zilch , zero , nothing like iq idiot posted absurdity first place iq collecting information putting forward fbi refused comment guardian reporter 's question link israeli intelligence \( information mention mossad explicitly \)
tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) subject islam borders vs israeli borders nntp posting host orion oac uci edu organization university california , irvine lines 56 article c50wjj j4r newsflash concordia ca ilyess ece concordia ca \( ilyess bdira \) writes article bimacs bitnet ehrlich bimacs bitnet \( gideon ehrlich \) writes borders islamic world dreams \? \? islamic world dreams whole planet , kicking current inhabitant , rather deam day everybody converts jews dream , would feel threatened bit certainly muslims believe dream global islamic community achieved force , however , others \( , often far visible vocal former \) accept establishment global islam force would feel threatened accepting pursuing peaceful means , jews advocating approach advocating force means expanding side 's power certainly threat palestinians , israel maintaining dominance outside group told one impose control , damn right threat member non muslim minority inside islamic world actively accept minority status , would also certainly see islam 's domination , maintained , powerful coercive force wield minorities within ranks islamic readers , waiting honest answer want also honest answer zionists following questions zionist , feel jewish palestinian nationalist desires need , , accepted way 1 \) jews n't even believe god \( case many founders secular zionism \) right palestine inhabitants palestine , god gave land \? reason muslims believe proper righteous islam spread force upon want 2 \) speak west bank inhabitants jews want part israel \? refer also refer scared , feel threatened , well feeling area degree part belief religion heritage identity etc strongly object justify israeli rule want occupied territories israel 's control , keep , dominate tim
spinoza wam umd edu \( yon bonnie laird robbing \) subject islam borders vs israeli borders nntp posting host wam umd edu organization workstations maryland , university maryland , college park lines 37 article c50wjj j4r newsflash concordia ca ilyess ece concordia ca \( ilyess bdira \) writes 1 \) jews n't even believe god \( case many founders secular zionism \) right palestine inhabitants palestine , god gave land \? g nothing land fact given jews united nations , quite bit purchased arab absentee landlords present claims based prior ownership \( purchase aforementioned absentee landlords \) award united nations partition palestine mandate territory , result defensive wars fought egyptians , syrians , jordanians , et al 2 \) speak west bank inhabitants jews want part israel \? first , point many jews fact agree idea west bank since , however , agree claim west bank , think answer question west bank called war hussein ordered arab legion attack israel , poor move , seeing israelis promptly kicked butt territory therefore retaining possession west bank desirable , beats national suicide israelis put another way , one could ask many palestinians seem think tel aviv belongs future state palestine long state affairs continues , seems give palestinians place launch attacks jews real poor idea giving entire west bank would idiotic security standpoint addition , small matter jerusalem , considered part west bank chances israelis giving jerusalem nil even leftists think yasser really cool dude , like yossi sarid , n't going propose giving jerusalem , 'd get run town rail ! jeff
alaa peewee unx dec com \( alaa zeineldine \) subject wtc bombing organization digital equipment corp x newsreader tin 1 1 pl3 lines 13 tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) writes hadas might fictitious character invented two men billing purposes , said mohammed , head arab american relations committee tim would remind readers fact ny daily news march 5th reported arrest hadas foreign newspapers reported release shortly afterwards provide copies articles upon request alaa zeineldine
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject armenian genocide muslim people 1914 1993 article zuma reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 52 article news cso uiuc edu ptg2351 uxa cso uiuc edu \( panos tamamidis \) writes , , de la salam , \? ti , \? source alper gazigiray , osmanlilardan gunumuze kadar vesikalarla ermeni teroru'nun kaynaklari , gozen kitabevi , istanbul , 1982 pp 267 268 van sonra ilk 1915 5 da , murat hamparsum sa bir 500 kadar en askeri bir erzurum rus ile osmanli ordularinin idi ermeniler boyle bir yer turk ordularinin rus ordularinin islam turk ile mus ermeni idi bu , rus ermenilerin idare , rus ordularinin rus turk turk bu rus ermeni rus ordularinin ermeni , turk bu turk mezalim ile p 285 bu 23 gun , bu sure van , ermeniler , ermenilerin hakkinda idi , , turk sonra van 1500 kadar turk , da , serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
iacovou cs umn edu \( neophytos iacovou \) subject feed armenians dirt bite dust ! nntp posting host cs umn edu organization university minnesota lines 34 1993apr5 7010 urartu sdpa org dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) writes david davidian says turkish officials came armenia last september armenia given assurances armenian nuclear plant would stay shut turkey promised armenia electricity , middle december 1992 , turkey said sorry joking armenia froze past winter 30 , 000 armenians lost lives turkey claims allowed humanitarian aid enter armenia border turkey turkey , replaced high quality grain europe crap turkey , mixed dirt , let garbage armenia 30 , 000 armenians lost lives ! latest upi foreign ministry spokesman told journalists turkey closing air space flights armenia would prevent humanitarian aid reaching republic across turkish territory historically even uncivilized peoples exhibited signs compassion allowing humanitarian aid reach civilian populations even nazis much seems though turkey publicly pronounce choose continue condemnation serbians neophytos iacovou university minnesota email iacovou cs umn edu computer science department ! rutgers ! umn cs ! iacovou
flax frej teknikum uu se \( jonas flygare \) subject 18 israelis murdered march organization dept control , teknikum , uppsala lines 184 flax frej teknikum uu se 1993apr5 thunder mcrcim mcgill edu nntp posting host frej teknikum uu se reply hasan mcrcim mcgill edu 's message mon , 5 apr 93 12 54 19 gmt article 1993apr5 thunder mcrcim mcgill edu hasan mcrcim mcgill edu writes small refresh hasan got track article flax frej teknikum uu se , flax frej teknikum uu se \( jonas flygare \) writes article 1993apr3 thunder mcrcim mcgill edu hasan mcrcim mcgill edu writes article flax frej teknikum uu se , flax frej teknikum uu se \( jonas flygare \) writes get impression hasan realized goofed trying drop thread let might save miniscule portion sorry face really since logical person likes name calling , started trashing article contains abuses without responding , sometimes even reading articles written acquired bad habits bad company ! ah , followup subject \( , way , never bothered responding \) name calling hence assumption feel , might answer \? , refresh memory , human right issue area apply palestinians \? also , claim thing human right \? 's possible , explain rest us exist thing \? use logic , convince us ! golden chance ! jonas flygare , well , ok let 's see master wisdom , mr jonas flygare , wrote responded calling names , giving title \? first , read paragraph , accept title , order let get um , well , debate master wisdom writes 1993mar31 frej teknikum uu se hasan flax hasan case didnot know , palestineans 18 months coming back agree give palestineans human rights afterall , human rights negotiable correct i'm wrong , n't right one 's life also right' \? \? apply palestinians \? everybody 's right however , killer kills , giving willingly life 's right society society represented goverment would exercise duty depriving killer life 's right 's right israel kill people kill israelis \? old thinking \? funny , thought modern legal systems made counter exactly expect tell tell , master , insist giving names titles ask could least spell correctly sigh intentionally neglecting important fact whole israeli presence occupied territories illegitimate , hence actions , courts , laws illegitimate ground occupied territories , neglecting , i'm merely asking whether existance israeli citicens wb gaza invalidates individuals right live , \( eloquently put \) human right get back question law used territories later also , question israelis also human rights expect tell , master wisdom , explain point post , responded point since israel occupying automatically depriving rights occupied palestineans , exactly similar automatic deprivation killer right life society state deprive 's citizens human rights actions , tell human living today rights \? , group people occupies others territories rule force , group would willingly deprived rights right live \? 's nice swedish government group people rule force give right kill \? consider posed worthy question \? worthy , applying logic related problem assume admit would n't hold \? kind rights much would deprived another issue \? answer found certain system international law , us law , israeli law , 's convenient start using legal system prove point excuse throw ok , master wisdom throwing people stay away screen ! oh watch comedy pipe water telephone \? 'll let secret 's real take word seems us law represented us state dept case looking way around violence occurs occupied territories anyway , hamas , obviously turned islamic system system propose use solve problem \? question system would solve problem \? system solve laws minister sharon says kick palestineans \( palestine \) asked system used , preserve human rights people involved assumed obvious , wo n't repeat mistake straightened , i'm eagerly awaiting reply joseph weitz \( administrator responsible jewish colonization \) said best writing diary 1940 must clear room peoples together country shall achieve goal independent people arabs small country solution palestine , least western palestine \( west jordan river \) without arabs way transfer arabs neighbouring countries , transfer one village , one tribe , left transfer country able absorb millions brethren way davar , 29 september , 1967 \( courtesy marc afifi \) question disregard rather obvious references getting israel one way plo covenant hamas charter \( 's english translations , information 'd interested translate \) give credence private paper even older \? i'm going get question wrote , 's fairly obvious parties conflict share fanatics guess \? people make lasting peace region ever 's willing make start , willing give order get something back either refers zionists jews \( donot know \) well , give answer , master wisdom , suggest imperialist israeli system solving problem ! think fair enough , answer , since asked system could solve problem said could used , provided contradiction guess takes logic \? never never land greatest problem zionism arab children rabbi shoham oh , way , let add cute quotes put end real bummer , try giving posts credit jonas flygare , wherever go , v 32 f 621 754 22 uppsala , sweden
spinoza wam umd edu \( yon bonnie laird robbing \) subject islam borders \( israel misisipi \) nntp posting host wam umd edu organization workstations maryland , university maryland , college park lines 20 article 1993apr5 thunder mcrcim mcgill edu hasan mcrcim mcgill edu writes article bimacs bitnet , ehrlich bimacs bitnet \( gideon ehrlich \) writes hassan seemed ware jews celebrating days passover going way nile one let imagination freely work seemed beter write zionist misisipi nile question going east west misisipi either choice would loose palestine , n thought 're gonna say misisipi back misisipi ! nile nile long way ! \)
stssdxb st unocal com \( dorin baru \) subject islam borders vs israeli borders organization unocal corporation lines 38 ilyess bdira writes islamic world dreams whole planet , kicking current inhabitant , rather deam day everybody converts jews dream , would feel threatened bit comfortable 500 , 000 , 000 people want convert islam , convert anything many types violence , physical murder one convert insult 's like trying tell god lack god crap , need new , one apply muslims , course jews friendly , nicely dressed neighbours show sunday empty cheap church objective \( think , however wrong \) convert everybody , 's matter time violence occur n't able learn anything years related \? let 'the , people live wish take care business \? assume \( beliefs \) long want change thinking dorin
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject armenian killings \( azerbadjan \) continues reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 28 article 1993apr5 kth se hilmi er dsv su se \( hilmi eren \) writes armenian killings \( azerbadjan \) continues , armenian attackers continues 's attack , azerbadjan 45 , 000 people evacuated , 15 , 000 still town fascist x soviet armenian government also hired mercenaries slaughter azeris time armenian government says forces n't armenia nagorno karabag heavy weapons france result turkey 's president , turgut ozal , says un n't act may show teeth situation becomes worse finally time serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject armenians destroyed moslem villages plain reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 48 article cascade cs ubc ca cs ubc ca \( van den \) writes see , pathological liar got crack record think point seem disagree chance keep seeing line 's pathetic , even serdar argic ! well , asala sdpa arf terrorism revisionism triangle compulsive liar try dealing rest wrote u ambassador bristol source u library congress general correspondence container 34 dashnaks power everything world keep pot boiling attacking kurds , turks tartars committing outrages moslems massacring moslems robbing destroying homes last two years armenians russian caucasus shown ability govern especially ability govern handle races power kurdish scholar source hassan arfa , kurds , \( london , 1968 \) , pp 25 26 russian armies invaded turkey disaster 1914 , columns preceded battalions irregular armenian volunteers , caucasus turkey one commanded certain , blood thirsty armenian volunteers committed kinds excesses , six hundred thousand kurds killed 1915 1916 eastern vilayets turkey serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
hasan mcrcim mcgill edu subject land peace originator hasan haley mcrcim mcgill edu nntp posting host haley mcrcim mcgill edu organization mcgill research centre intelligent machines lines 45 article 1993apr5 unocal com , stssdxb st unocal com \( dorin baru \) writes alan stein writes talking \? rabin government clearly indicated interest territorial compromise would leave vast majority arabs judea , samaria gaza outside israeli control \( interrupting comment \) since early 1980 's , israelis said willing give adminstration rule occupied terretories palestineans palestineans refused refuse settlement denies right self determination period know pointing compromising may bad idea , israel , voices negotiations think many among palestineans also negociations opinion dorin ok donot know israeli voices negotiations however , would guess refuse giving back land right arabian palestinean voices current negotiations called peace process , peace per se , rather well founded predictions israel would give inch west bank \( probably golan heights \) back arabs 18 months negotiations madrid , washington proved predictions many jump saying blaming israelis result negotiations would say would arabs stall negotiations , loose \? arabs feel current negotiations legitimizing current status quo opening doors arab markets israeli trade oranges simply unacceptable would revoked opinion hasan
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject systematic genocide muslim population armenians reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 226 article 1993apr5 massey ac nz massey ac nz \( c k black \) writes mr furr , sensible says many mutlus dance head pin \? lo behold , invokes mr 666 net , beloved serdar , program designed seek words sentence gets automated reply must rave \? fascist x soviet armenian government engaged disgusting cowardly massacres azeri women children really sorry fact bothers mutlu \? , exciting first discuss literature tastes , fantasies , choices entertainment considered turning tv leaving us n't brain dead continue discuss genocide 2 5 million muslim people x soviet armenian government \? etc etc etc ridicule , take \? still addressing original points made joel , n't mate ! i'm poor plant scientist , n't know make files key works overtime seems problem \? ever read newspaper \? painful search gruesome extent february 's killings azeris armenians town hojali last emerging azerbaijan 600 men , women children dead worst outrage four year war nagorny karabakh figure drawn azeri investigators , hojali officials casualty lists published baku press diplomats aid workers say death toll line estimates 25 february attack hojali armenian forces one last moves four year campaign take full control nagorny karabakh , subject new round negotiations rome monday bloodshed something fighting retreat massacre , investigators say dead civilians awful number people killed first suppressed fearful former communist government baku later blurred armenian denials grief stricken azerbaijan 's wild contradictory allegations 2 , 000 dead state , rasulov , cheif investigator 15 man team looking azerbaijan calls hojali disaster , said figure 600 people dead minimum preliminary findings similar estimate given elman memmedov , mayor hojali even higher one printed baku newspaper ordu may 479 dead people named 200 bodies reported unidentified figure nearly 700 dead quoted official leila , new spokeswoman azeri ministry defence francois zen ruffinen , head delegation international red cross baku , said muslim imam nearby city agdam reported figure 580 bodies received mosque hojali , civilians count bodies figure seems reasonable fantasy , mr zen ruffinen said idea since gave body bags products wash dead mr rasulov give estimate number dead massacre n't get worked take several months get final figure , 43 year old lawyer said small office mr rasulov knows things took two years reach firm conclusion 131 people killed 714 wounded soviet troops tanks crushed nationalist uprising baku january 1990 nationalists , popular front , finally came power three weeks ago applying pressure find exactly happened hojali , azeri town lies 70 miles border armenia , fell armenians officially , 184 people far certified dead , number people could medically examined republic 's forensic department small percentage dead , said rafiq youssifov , republic 's chief forensic scientist bodies brought us remember chaos fact muslims wash bury dead within 24 hours 184 people , 51 women , 13 children 14 years old gunshots killed 151 people , shrapnel killed 20 axes blunt instruments killed 10 exposure highland snows killed last three thirty three people showed signs deliberate mutilation , including ears , noses , breasts cut eyes gouged , according professor youssifov 's report 184 bodies examined less third believed killed , mr rasulov said files mr rasulov 's investigative commission still lists 44 azeri militiamen dead , six policemen , handwriting mosque attendant , names 111 corpses brought washed one day account 850 witnesses interviewed far comes towfiq manafov , azeri investigator took helicopter flight escape route hojali 27 february many bodies dead wounded ground count properly 470 500 hojali , 650 700 people stream road 85 100 visible around nakhchivanik village , mr manafov wrote statement helicopter pilot people waved us help saw three dead children one two year old alive one dead woman live one pulling arm mother get tried land armenians started helicopter return lists figures circulation political last months fact nobody knows exactly hojali time many inhabitants displaced villages taken armenian forces independent , london , 12 6 '92 heroes fought amid bodies sadikov sat quietly shade cafe bar caspian sea baku showed line stitches trousers , torn armenian bullet fled town hojali three months ago , writes hugh pope i'm still wearing clothes , n't others , 51 year old carpenter said , beginning account hojali disaster wounded five places , lucky alive mr sadikov wife short food , without electricity month , cut helicopter flights 12 days sensed armenian noose tightening around 2 , 000 3 , 000 people left azeri town edge karabakh bombardment started never heard , eight nine kinds weapons , artillery , heavy machine guns , lot , mr sadikov said soon neighbours pouring street direction attack huddled shelters others started fleeing town , hill , stream snow forest side escape , reach azeri town agdam 15 miles away thought going make , dawn reached bottleneck two armenian villages nakhchivanik none group hurt spotted car road , armenian outposts started opening fire , mr sadikov said azeri militiamen fighting way hojali rushed forward force open corridor civilians , efforts mostly vain mr sadikov said 10 people group 80 made , including wife son seven immediate relations died , including 67 year old elder brother time reach cover face hat , said , pulling big flat turkish cap eyes never got bodies back first groups lucky benefit covering fire one hero evacuation , , shot dead struggled change magazine covering third group 's crossing , mr sadikov said another hero , elman memmedov , mayor hojali , said several others spent whole day 26 february hillside , surrounded dead bodies tried keep three armenian armoured personnel carriers bay survivors staggered last mile agdam , little comfort town population soon flee night reached town big armenian rocket attack people kept going , mr sadikov said get hospital treatment bad way even found bullet sock victims war azeri woman son , killed hojali massacre february \( left \) nurses struggle primitive conditions \( centre \) save wounded man makeshift operating theatre set train carriage grief stricken relatives town agdam \( right \) weep coffin another massacre victims calculating final death toll complicated muslims bury dead within 24 hours photographs liu ap reuter independent , london , 12 6 '92 serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject systematic genocide muslim population armenians reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 99 article 1993apr5 mnemosyne cs du edu jfurr nyx cs du edu \( joel furr \) writes dunno , warren day heard rumor serdar argic \( aka hasan mutlu ahmed cosar zumabot \) really turk , fact armenian 1 63 \? must congratulate analytical excellent diana writings quoted , perceive , maybe , armenian genes even though 1 armenian , seems many strong characteristics armenian women armenian ancestry traced eliza \( armenian india \) , married scottish merchant forbes union born kathleen scott forbes , married james aberdeen daughter jane , married david daughter ruth married william gill ruth gill , grandmother lady diana , married lord , daughter , frances ruth burke , married eight earl spencer , father lady diana noteworthy eliza also referred mrs \( characteristic armenian surname ending \) armenian scottish gene mix dynamite k assistant professor northwestern university , illinois time , december 21 , 1992 attempting make discussion massacres armenia turks noise laden make serious discussion impossible , thereby historical record tremendous cloud confusion set straw horses knocked i'm impressed anyway , armenians tore apart ottoman empire 's eastern provinces , massacred 2 5 million defenseless turkish women , children elderly people , burned thousands turkish kurdish villages exterminated entire turkish population armenian dictatorship 1914 1920 outrageous hand still employed today armenia brings depth verification turkish genocide hard match hundred years ago armenians thought could get whatever wanted sheer terror like russian anarchists accepted role models several armenian terror groups like asala sdpa arf terrorism revisionism triangle resorted tactics 1980s , butchering scores innocent turks families united states europe seems , different scale , fascist x soviet armenia today source stanford j shaw , armenian collaboration invading russian armies 1914 , history ottoman empire modern turkey \( volume ii reform , revolution republic rise modern turkey , 1808 1975 \) \( london , cambridge university press 1977 \) pp 315 316 april 1915 dashnaks russian armenia organized revolt city van , whose 33 , 789 armenians comprised 42 3 percent population , closest armenian majority city empire leaving erivan april 28 , 1915 , armenian volunteers reached van may 14 organized carried general slaughter local muslim population next two days small ottoman garrison retreat southern side lake knowing numbers would never justify territorial ambitions , armenians looked russia europe fulfillment aims armenian treachery regard culminated beginning first world war decision revolutionary organizations refuse serve state , ottoman empire , assist instead invading russian armies hope participation russian success would rewarded independent armenian state carved ottoman territories armenian political leaders , army officers , common soldiers began deserting droves russian invasion eastern anatolia 1914 beginning world war , degree armenian collaboration ottoman 's enemy increased drastically ottoman supply lines cut guerilla attacks , armenian revolutionaries armed armenian civil populations , turn massacred muslim population province van anticipation expected arrival invading russian armies serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject armenians destroyed villages trabzon erzurum reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 55 article 1993apr4 ns1 cc lehigh edu ns1 cc lehigh edu \( peter \) writes disclaimer anybody usenet dumb enough interpret posting serious meaningful one , want assure entity joke still yelling telephone lawn mower \? people think 're looney howling wires comment \? source documents volume \( 1919 \) document 76 , archive 1 2 , cabin 109 , drawer 3 , file 346 , section 427 \( \) , contents 3 , 52 53 \( lt colonel , general headquarters , second section , istanbul dr stephan eshnanie \) wiener vienna , berlin , amsterdam , istanbul closely following two weeks withdrawal russians armenians turkish territories armenia although two months elapsed since clearing territories armenian gangs , observing evidence cruelties armenians almost every step villages trabzon erzincan erzincan erzurum destroyed corpses turks brutally cruelly slain everywhere according accounts able save lives escaping mountains , first horrible fearful events begun russian forces evacuated places taken armenian gangs russians usually treated people well , people feared intervention armenians places taken armenians , however , massacres begun clearly announced intention clearing called armenian kurdish land turks thus , solve nationality problem today opportunity meet austrian german soldiers escaped russian prison camps come kars alexander paul \( \) russian officers tried save turks clashes russian officers armenian gangs erzurum , see terrible almost whole city destroyed smell corpses still fills air although speculations armenian gangs murdered austrian german prisoners well , could get supporting evidence regard , proof murdering turkish prisoners war dr stephan eshnanie serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject life fall forget reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 36 article oneb almanac bc ca kmcvay oneb almanac bc ca \( ken mcvay \) writes remember forget fuchs never n't know whether anybody formulated proposed index criteria determine magnitude genocide mentioned advised toynbee one ever easily see magnitude crime genocide committed armenians , massacring alien population rule constituted 40 total population within time period little two years enjoyed full control population would like ask genocide history mankind similar one \? would like ask whether silent martyrdom hundreds thousands turks republic armenia exterminated final solution tartar problems armenia similar martyrdom six million jews europe final solution jewish problems \? serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
stssdxb st unocal com \( dorin baru \) subject land peace organization unocal corporation lines 52 hasan mcrcim mcgill edu writes ok donot know israeli voices negotiations however , would guess refuse giving back land right sounds like wishful guessing arabian palestinean voices current negotiations called peace process , peace per se , rather well founded predictions israel would give inch west bank \( probably golan heights \) back arabs 18 months negotiations madrid , washington proved predictions many jump saying blaming israelis result negotiations would say would arabs stall negotiations , loose \? 'so \? mean \? would see peace process \? say palestineans 'well predictions \? know 'well test table \? 18 months prove anything , 's always side fault , right \? \? know , , let 's say , palestineans \( \) want israel , known accepted terms israelis , maybe \( \) yet ready statehood \? , maybe much politics within palestinean leadership , many fractions \? saying one reasons indeed real one , could make arabs stall negotiations arabs feel current negotiations legitimizing current status quo opening doors arab markets israeli trade oranges simply unacceptable would revoked like california oranges feelings may get sharper table regards , dorin
hasan mcrcim mcgill edu subject 18 israelis murdered march originator hasan haley mcrcim mcgill edu nntp posting host haley mcrcim mcgill edu organization mcgill research centre intelligent machines lines 189 article flax frej teknikum uu se , flax frej teknikum uu se \( jonas flygare \) writes article 1993apr5 thunder mcrcim mcgill edu hasan mcrcim mcgill edu writes article flax frej teknikum uu se , flax frej teknikum uu se \( jonas flygare \) writes article 1993apr3 thunder mcrcim mcgill edu hasan mcrcim mcgill edu writes article flax frej teknikum uu se , flax frej teknikum uu se \( jonas flygare \) writes get impression hasan realized goofed trying drop thread let might save miniscule portion sorry face really since logical person likes name calling , started trashing article contains abuses without responding , sometimes even reading articles written acquired bad habits bad company ! deleted stuff well , ok let 's see master wisdom , mr jonas flygare , wrote responded calling names , giving title \? first , read paragraph , accept title , order let get um , well , debate didnot know master wisdom name , unless consider deserve less ! master wisdom writes 1993mar31 frej teknikum uu se hasan flax hasan case didnot know , palestineans 18 months coming back agree give palestineans human rights afterall , human rights negotiable correct i'm wrong , n't right one 's life also right' \? \? apply palestinians \? everybody 's right however , killer kills , giving willingly life 's right society society represented goverment would exercise duty depriving killer life 's right 's right israel kill people kill israelis \? old thinking \? funny , thought modern legal systems made counter exactly expect tell tell , master , insist giving names titles ask could least spell correctly sigh confuse ! \( ha ha ha hey \) intentionally neglecting important fact whole israeli presence occupied territories illegitimate , hence actions , courts , laws illegitimate ground occupied territories , neglecting , i'm merely asking whether existance israeli citicens wb gaza invalidates individuals right trying retaliate confuse live , \( eloquently put \) human right get back question law used territories later also , question israelis also human rights first , statement doesnot say existence israeli citizens wb revoke right life says israeli occupation wb revoke right life citizens basically right military men clearly , occupation undeclared war war , attacks military targets fully legitimate secondly , surely israeli human rights , ask goverment protect withdrawing occupied terretories , oppressing palestinean human rights expect tell , master wisdom , explain point post , responded point since israel occupying automatically depriving rights occupied palestineans , exactly similar automatic deprivation killer right life society state deprive 's citizens human rights actions , tell human living today rights \? states like israel , oppressive , ignorant , tyrant kind rights much would deprived another issue \? answer found certain system international law , us law , israeli law , deleted , jonas throwing real stick screen seems us law represented us state dept case looking way around violence occurs occupied territories anyway , hamas , obviously turned islamic system system propose use solve problem \? question system would solve problem \? system solve laws minister sharon says kick palestineans \( palestine \) asked system used , preserve human rights people involved assumed obvious , wo n't repeat mistake straightened , i'm eagerly awaiting reply agree israeli solution preserve human rights \( understanding first statement paragraph \) joseph weitz \( administrator responsible jewish colonization \) said best writing diary 1940 must clear room peoples together country shall achieve goal independent people arabs small country solution palestine , least western palestine \( west jordan river \) without arabs way transfer arabs neighbouring countries , transfer one village , one tribe , left transfer country able absorb millions brethren way davar , 29 september , 1967 \( courtesy marc afifi \) question disregard rather obvious references getting israel one way plo covenant hamas charter \( 's english translations , information 'd interested translate \) give credence private paper even older \? i'm going get question wrote , 's fairly obvious parties conflict share fanatics guess \? people make lasting peace region deleted stuff exactly , right guess problem israeli goverment full men like joseph weitz either refers zionists jews \( donot know \) well , give answer , master wisdom , suggest imperialist israeli system solving problem ! think fair enough , answer , since asked system could solve problem said could used , provided contradiction wrote understood meant \( underlined \) system used solve conflict , system would resolve justly guess takes logic \? never never land proving first understood meant , claim didnot claim contradiction logic bad , master wisdom greatest problem zionism arab children rabbi shoham oh , way , let add cute quotes put end real bummer , try giving posts credit feel ashamed things facts believe , zionists believe zionist codes acts , well feel sorry , rabbi shoham said yes , zionism racism feel ashamed bothered zionist codes , drop zionism zionist , bothered join condemning racist zionist codes acts hasan jonas flygare ,
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject armenian nazi collaboration world war ii reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 51 article news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) writes possible track zuma determine \? done change fact period 1914 1920 , armenian government ordered , incited , assisted participated genocide 2 5 million muslim people race , religion national origin \? way , still n't corrected world war ii armenians carried away german might nazis zeal , armenian publication germany , hairenik , carried statements follows 1 sometimes difficult eradicate poisonous elements \( jews \) struck deep root like chronic disease , becomes necessary people \( nazis \) eradicate uncommon method , attempts regarded revolutionary surgical operation , flow blood natural thing brief view armenian genocide muslims jews extracts letter dated december 11 , 1983 , published san francisco chronicle , answer letter published journal signature one b amarian first hand information evidence armenian atrocities people \( jews \) members family witnessed murder 148 members family near erzurum , turkey , armenian neighbors , bent destroying anything anybody remotely jewish muslim armenians look history see havoc ancestors perpetrated upon neighbors armenians league hitler last war , premise grant self government , return , armenians would help exterminate jews armenians also hearty proponents anti semitic acts league russian communists mr amarian ! n't need bias signed ben levi , , california 1 james g , , , ' 'armenian review , ' quarterly hairenik association , inc , summer june 1957 , vol x , 2 38 serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject armenians massacring innocent azeri women children reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 180 article iacovou iacovou cs umn edu \( neophytos iacovou \) writes historically even uncivilized peoples exhibited signs compassion allowing humanitarian aid reach civilian populations even nazis much world community really powerless \? human rights advocates \? decent people \? going let human tragedy go nothing \? number azeris murdered terrorist armenian army savage gangs increasing news reporters make living providing stories , way hell going confuse public happening armenia \( country know \) , risk people 's interest happening serbia must living alternate universe \? appeal mankind last three years azerbaijan population vainly fighting justice within limits soviet union humanitarian , constitutional human rights guaranteed un charter , universal declaration human rights , helsinki agreements , human problems international forums , documents signed soviet union violated ussr 's president , government bodies defend azerbaijan though empowered take necessary measures guarantee life peace 140 , 000 strong army armenian terrorists moscow 's tacit consent wages undeclared war annihilation azerbaijan result , part azerbaijan occupied annexed , hundreds people killed , thousands wounded 200 , 000 azerbaijanis brutally deported armenian ssr , historical homeland together 64 , 000 russians 22 , 000 kurds also driven , part settled azerbaijan 40 , 000 turkish , lezghins representatives caucasian nationalities escaped central asia president government bodies guarantee life peace also suffered deportations one scandalous directed azerbaijan science world civilization well armenian destruction karabakh scientific experimental base institute genetics selection academy sciences azerbaijan ssr beg humanitarian help political assistance , honour dignity 7 million azerbaijanis violated , territory , culture history trampled , people shot persistent negative image abroad , defamation spread whole world soviet mass media , armenian lobby ussr united states one myths events allegedly involves generated collisions religious intolerance truth shootings recent events stem territorial claims armenia azerbaijan well documented fact conflict armenians azerbaijanis issue karabakh hundreds thousands armenians calmly lived worked azerbaijan land , representatives government bodies azerbaijan ssr united , indivisible , sovereign azerbaijan , common caucasian home proclaimed 1918 one founding fathers azerbaijan democratic republic muhammed goals expectations trampled upon soviet leadership favour armenian encouraged moscow intended create new '1 , 000 year annexing neighboring lands world public opinion shed tears save whales , suffers penguins dying antarctic continent lives seven million human beings \? people muslims , mean less valuable \? people discriminated colour skin religion , residence attributes \? people brothers , appeal brothers help understanding first appeal azerbaijan world public opinion previous appeals unheard however , still carry hope truth beyond russian armenian propaganda one day reveal extent suffering stimulate least much help compassion azerbaijan whales penguins committee help karabakh \( \) academy sciences azerbaijan ssr everyone knows , even turks know , know give us time period world currently boring , happening armenia would make front page headlines think i'm lying \? take look happened somalia press report world \? perhaps turkiye intervene affairs caucasus name peace democracy armenians christians , azerbaijanis moslems , islam religion especially democrat besides , root conflict lie territorial claims azerbaijan , consequence blood suffering innocent azeri people , hundreds thousands refugees , gross violations human rights recently armenians attacked azeri town khojaly massacred thousands azeris paris based democracy human rights puts number victims 3 , 145 dead scalped mutilated whole thing gone entirely far want know bring story armenia front page \? russians move area shit load tanks human rights advocates show defending armenians course also sure russians wo n't show tanks , problems home already scenario genocide staged armenians 78 years ago ottoman empire reenacted time azerbaijan remarkable similarities plots , perpetrators , underdogs report taken new york times , tuesday , march 3 , 1992 massacre armenians reported agdam , azerbaijan , march 2 \( reuters \) fresh evidence emerged today massacre civilians armenian militants nagorno karabakh , predominantly armenian enclave azerbaijan republic armenia reiterated denials militants killed 1 , 000 people azerbaijani populated town khojaly last week massacred men , women children fleeing carnage across snow covered mountain passes dozen bodies scattered area lent credence azerbaijani reports massacre reported azerbaijani officials journalists flew briefly region helicopter brought back three dead children back heads blown said shooting armenians prevented retrieving bodies women children scalped , said assad , aide nagorno karabakh 's azerbaijani governor began pick bodies , began firing us azerbaijani militia chief agdam , rashid mamedov , said bodies lying like flocks sheep even fascists nothing like bodies near agdam outskirts nagorno karabakh , reuters photographer , , said seen two trucks filled azerbaijani bodies first one counted 35 , looked though many second , said head cut , many burned men , wearing uniforms serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
hasan mcrcim mcgill edu subject islam borders vs israeli borders originator hasan haley mcrcim mcgill edu nntp posting host haley mcrcim mcgill edu organization mcgill research centre intelligent machines lines 51 article 1993apr5 wam umd edu , spinoza wam umd edu \( yon bonnie laird robbing \) writes article c50wjj j4r newsflash concordia ca ilyess ece concordia ca \( ilyess bdira \) writes 1 \) jews n't even believe god \( case many founders secular zionism \) right palestine inhabitants palestine , god gave land \? g nothing land fact given jews united nations , quite bit purchased arab absentee landlords present claims based prior ownership \( purchase aforementioned absentee landlords \) award united nations partition palestine mandate territory , result defensive wars fought egyptians , syrians , jordanians , et al 2 \) speak west bank inhabitants jews want part israel \? first , point many jews fact agree idea west bank since , however , agree claim west bank , think answer question west bank called war hussein ordered arab legion funny anyway , suppose fact israel didnot attack jordan till jordan attacked israel , explain attack syria 1967 , syria didnot enter war israel till 4th day way funny implying reason behind 1967 israel capture sinai , egypt ! attack israel , poor move , seeing israelis promptly kicked butt territory therefore retaining possession west bank desirable , beats national suicide israelis put another way , one could ask many palestinians seem think tel aviv belongs future state palestine long state affairs continues , seems give palestinians place launch attacks jews real poor idea giving entire west bank would idiotic security standpoint addition , small matter jerusalem , considered part west bank chances israelis giving jerusalem nil even leftists think yasser really cool dude , like yossi sarid , n't going propose giving jerusalem , 'd get run town rail ! jeff
steel hal gnu ai mit edu \( nick steel \) subject f ck tsiel , logic mr emmanuel keywords conspiracy , nutcase organization etc organization lines 24 nntp posting host hal ai mit edu article bimacs bitnet bimacs bitnet \( emmanuel \) writes mr steel , 've read tsiel racist , anti semitic stop shouting , fanatic , mr emmanuel , give logic break gosh , kind intelligence , \? says man arab say fuck tsiel \( saying \) get tagged racist , gets praised \? well mr , tsiel apologized racist remark praise courage , tell take hike whoever calls racist without proof proven us brain moron 's loose net fanatic proud fanatic rights freedom , idiot
eshneken ux4 cso uiuc edu \( edward shnekendorf \) subject islam borders vs israeli borders organization university illinois urbana lines 15 tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) writes strongly object justify israeli rule want occupied territories israel 's control , keep , dominate certainly arabs make peace leftist lunatics call upon israel withdraw moderates realize israeli withdrawl based camp david 242 338 madrid formulas make full peace prerequisite territorial concessions tim ed
eshneken ux4 cso uiuc edu \( edward shnekendorf \) subject islam borders vs israeli borders organization university illinois urbana lines 46 hasan mcrcim mcgill edu writes article 1993apr5 wam umd edu , spinoza wam umd edu \( yon bonnie laird robbing \) writes article c50wjj j4r newsflash concordia ca ilyess ece concordia ca \( ilyess bdira \) writes 1 \) jews n't even believe god \( case many founders secular zionism \) right palestine inhabitants palestine , god gave land \? g nothing land fact given jews united nations , quite bit purchased arab absentee landlords present claims based prior ownership \( purchase aforementioned absentee landlords \) award united nations partition palestine mandate territory , result defensive wars fought egyptians , syrians , jordanians , et al 2 \) speak west bank inhabitants jews want part israel \? first , point many jews fact agree idea west bank since , however , agree claim west bank , think answer question west bank called war hussein ordered arab legion funny anyway , suppose fact israel didnot attack jordan till jordan attacked israel , explain attack syria 1967 , syria didnot enter war israel till 4th day syria bombing israeli settlements golan sending terrorist squads israel years need provide specifics \? n't give , hasan \? i'm really starting get tired empty lies defend position ideology documented facts arguments rather crap regularly post take example someone like brendan mckay , n't agree , uses logic documentation argue position must insist constantly spouting baseless lies \? may piss people , 's wo n't prove anything add anything worthy discussion arguments prove poor weak case really love , ed
flax frej teknikum uu se \( jonas flygare \) subject 18 israelis murdered march organization dept control , teknikum , uppsala lines 195 flax frej teknikum uu se 1993apr5 thunder mcrcim mcgill edu nntp posting host frej teknikum uu se reply hasan mcrcim mcgill edu 's message mon , 5 apr 93 22 17 59 gmt article 1993apr5 thunder mcrcim mcgill edu hasan mcrcim mcgill edu writes stuff deleted wrote calling names , giving title \? first , read paragraph , accept title , order let get um , well , debate hasan replies didnot know master wisdom name , unless consider deserve less ! unless referring someone else , fact given name ask , hence term hasan writes expect tell tell , master , replied insist giving names titles ask could least spell correctly sigh hasan confuse ! \( ha ha ha hey \) hell bent childhood , \? intentionally neglecting important fact whole israeli presence occupied territories illegitimate , hence actions , courts , laws illegitimate ground occupied territories , neglecting , i'm merely asking whether existance israeli citicens wb gaza invalidates individuals right trying retaliate confuse , really try spell correctly , apologize confuse try repeat live , \( eloquently put \) human right get back question law used territories later also , question israelis also human rights first , statement doesnot say existence israeli citizens wb revoke right life says israeli occupation wb revoke right life citizens basically right military men clearly , occupation undeclared war war , attacks military targets fully legitimate ok , let phrase question repeatedly asked israelis less human rights palestinians , , posting \( directly adress question \) inferred thought together statement assumed reason actions state israel statement occupation 'd like define term , n't repeat answer procedure neccesary secondly , surely israeli human rights , ask goverment protect withdrawing occupied terretories , oppressing palestinean human rights i'm sorry , sentence make sense please rephrase state deprive 's citizens human rights actions , tell human living today rights \? states like israel , oppressive , ignorant , tyrant oh , ok human rights syrians , iraqis others \? name hama sound familiar \? kurds iraq turkey \? sweden \( ok , maybe bit \) russians baltic states moslem old ussr yugoslavia \? serbs human rights , according \? system propose use solve problem \? question system would solve problem \? system solve laws minister sharon says kick palestineans \( palestine \) asked system used , preserve human rights people involved assumed obvious , wo n't repeat mistake straightened , i'm eagerly awaiting reply agree israeli solution preserve human rights \( understanding first statement paragraph \) , i'm agreeing kick palestinians israel proper would probably lead disaster parties 's refer joseph weitz \( administrator responsible jewish colonization \) said best writing diary 1940 must clear room peoples together country shall achieve goal independent people arabs small country solution palestine , least western palestine \( west jordan river \) without arabs way transfer arabs neighbouring countries , transfer one village , one tribe , left transfer country able absorb millions brethren way davar , 29 september , 1967 \( courtesy marc afifi \) question disregard rather obvious references getting israel one way plo covenant hamas charter \( 's english translations , information 'd interested translate \) give credence private paper even older \? i'm going get question wrote , 's fairly obvious parties conflict share fanatics guess \? people make lasting peace region deleted stuff exactly , right guess problem israeli goverment full men like joseph weitz oh \? met personally , read diaries \? fascinating living \? either refers zionists jews \( donot know \) well , give answer , master wisdom , suggest imperialist israeli system solving problem ! think fair enough , answer , since asked system could solve problem said could used , provided contradiction wrote understood meant \( underlined \) system used solve conflict , system would resolve justly unjust solution would non solution , per definition , \? said following holds property b exists property b hold thus , either statements must false guess takes logic \? never never land proving first understood meant , claim didnot claim contradiction logic bad , master wisdom merely pointing small flaw reasoning since claim logical felt best point started using statements prove point assume logical \? greatest problem zionism arab children rabbi shoham oh , way , let add cute quotes put end real bummer , try giving posts credit feel ashamed things facts believe , zionists believe zionist codes acts , well feel sorry , rabbi shoham said yes , zionism racism feel ashamed bothered zionist codes , drop zionism zionist , bothered join condemning racist zionist codes acts quote misused , especially used stereotype individuals statement individual use methods credit , place \? oh , way , 'd advice assume anything condemning acts find vile inhuman , 'll try long assume acts whole people zionist mean state israel , government israel , leaders israel \( political religious \) jews general \? feel need condemn , condemn responsible instead would feel started condemning personally based bombings egypt \? jonas flygare , wherever go , v 32 f 621 754 22 uppsala , sweden
dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) subject orders turkish extermination armenians 17 summary children genocide send away desert article urartu 1993apr6 organization p center regional studies lines 145 orders turkish extermination armenians 17 children genocide send away desert part continuing series articles containing official turkish wartime \( ww1 \) governmental telegrams , translation , orders extermination armenian people turkey generally , telegrams issued turkish minister interior , talaat pasha , example , following set regarding children government aleppo november 5 , 1915 informed little ones belonging armenians sivas , ul aziz , hundreds km distance aleppo adopted certain moslem families received servants left alone death parents inform collect children province send places deportation , also give necessary orders regarding people minister interior , talaat 1 government aleppo september 21 , 1915 need time give way sentiment feed orphans , lives send away desert inform us minister interior , talaat 2 general committee settling november 26 , 1915 four hundred children added caravans sent places exile 3 government aleppo january 15 , 1916 hear certain opened receive also children armenians whether done ignorance real purpose , contempt , government regard feeding children attempt prolong lives act entirely opposed purpose , since considers survival children detrimental recommend children shall received , attempts made establish special minister interior , talaat 4 government aleppo collect keep orphans cannot remember tortures parents subjected send rest away caravans minister interior , talaat 5 ministry interior government aleppo time thousands moslem refugees fallen soldiers need food protection , expedient incur extra expenses feeding children left armenians , serve purpose except giving trouble future necessary children turned vilayet sent caravans place deportation kept till also sent away , compliance previous orders , sivas minister interior , talaat 6 1926 , halide edip \( pioneer turkish nationalist \) wrote memoirs conversation talaat pasha , verifying rationalizing ultra national fascist anti armenian mentality , following conviction long nation best interest , succeeds , world thinks moral ready die done , know shall die 7 telegrams entered evidence 1923 trial talaat pasha 's , assassin , turkish government never questioned death march orders 1986 , time world reminded genocide armenians reasons known study psychology genocide denial , turkish government supporters crime deny orders ever issued , claim telegrams forgeries based study orel yuca turkish historical society one examine sample authentic text provided turkish historical society study use forgery test sample , would forgery ! fact , tests turkish historical society performed piece ottoman turkish persian arabic script , one finds anything handwritten language forgery today , body talaat pasha lies tomb liberty hill , istanbul , turkey , next yildiz university campus body genocide architect returned turkey germany ww2 turkey state proto fascism recently , monument served focal point anti turkey monument represents turkish government 's pathological denial clear historical event insult people whose crime born armenian references 1 memoirs bey , , 1919 , pages 59 60 2 ibid , page 60 3 ibid , page 60 4 ibid , page 61 5 ibid , page 61 6 ibid , page 62 7 memoirs halide edip , halide edip , century press , new york \( london \) , 1926 , page 387 david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org explain turkish troops p center regional studies armenian border , ca n't p box 382761 even explain 1915 \? cambridge , 02238 turkish mp , march 1992
dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) subject treatment armenians azerbaijan 1 summary prelude events today organization p center regional studies lines 223 deposition danielian 1 born 1972 attended 9th grade middle school 17 resident building 4 2 , apartment 25 microdistrict 3 sumgait azerbaijan really , people town n't know happening february 27 came home school 12 o'clock , excused leave last period order go baku left , everything town fine life usual , groups people discussing things , soccer things got sumgait bus bound baku first cousin 's birthday , father , mother , spent day baku , 28th , somewhere around 6 00 p , got bus home , figuring 'd enough time homework next day entering town , near 12 story high rises , bus stopped large crowd crowd demanded armenians get bus driver says armenians board everyone bus begins shout armenians board group comes doors bus people get one one , checking passports , going way people look get bus , taken armenians set direction home first going go old building knew 'd place hide , whole road packed groups people , way block 41 8th microdistrict groups people 's pockets checking passports people n't passports beaten well decided go home instead near 12 story high rises saw burning cars great many people standing around driveways , yelling death armenians written cars came courtyard live l shaped building still quiet went upstairs , n't turn lights tried call baku warn relatives , due arrive wednesday , come knock door neighbors , advised us come stay place went place , led us basement live first floor basement enter across balcony sat basement armenian woman beaten ran away naked neighbors' daughter said 's right , 's armenians deserve , stepanakert , allegedly , people killed , 11 girls agdam raped n't stay long basement tried support one another best could , looking small window iron grating papa watched said things said fire near building 5 , probably car fire one groups approached driveway demanded shown apartments armenians lived neighbors said n't armenians , group set wing building appeared 5 2 side building , , later found , woman murdered woman ran away naked died yuri killed , crowd left , neighbors said could go home went back place n't turn light started gather things order leave sumgait tried call relative lived sumgait , answer decided already left sat home phone rang , caller asked speak father called phone mamedov , father 's work brigade said disgusted happening town asked address promised get car help us get city quite honest , papa n't want give address , mother got phone told 15 minutes call crowd ran entryway bursting building , broke door came apartment came straight apartment , knew exactly armenians came place tried resist , nothing could one took parents' passports began read read surname danielian , turned page , read armenian , alone enough doom us said moved quickly courtyard , would done us another , standing next , pushed keys piano said death knives steel knife hand unfortunately , n't use knew n't give knife things would much worse struck parents said put knife piano , one commanded taken outside one person giving orders taken outdoors went middle , mother behind someone started push 'd walk faster let go ahead , fell behind tried push , hit , moment began beating parents realized resistance completely useless taken courtyard , neighbors standing balconies see happen next crowd surrounds us first strike , i'm knocked come , beat lose consciousness often n't see hear parents , since first one hit cold come try pick lying next crowd gone , people around watching balconies 's try pick , ca n't left arm broken start toward drive , wanting tell neighbors call ambulance bodies parents still warm attacked around 9 o'clock regain consciousness 11 try make stairs home knock neighbors' door , push back tell go away go third floor , neighbor puts damp cloth head says call ambulance sends son one takes apartment often look window see ambulance arrived , ca n't see far result blows , seems parents already taken away calm try convince taken away , everything ok still later , 8 morning found , ambulance picked , already dead received attention time , possible would still alive later , around 12 o'clock 29th , policemen civilian clothing come house assistants call ambulance , 20 minutes later arrives , taken sumgait emergency hospital wounds head arm 3 o'clock armenians hospital sent ambulance baku ward sumgait hospital five people , armenians hospital nearly armenians azerbaijanis whose car flipped events , 27th hospital baku 38 days released , day , found parents dead first told moscow treated , later found dead father 's older brother told father 's name nikolai danielian born 1938 mother , born 1937 , danielian papa worked 20 , leader brigade mamma compressor operator also beaten head coroner 's report stated heads smashed open bled confrontation met mamedov , called turned later , one tipped crowd called specifically find home find exact address dispatch group knew phone number , n't know address events never seen , often spoken phone , would ask speak father knew name denies one answered phone , saying father answered denies called public phone , saying called home , also n't true heard noise sounds automobiles later found , earlier convicted , never served time received suspended sentence 20 years old n't know since confessed sure one tipped crowd one hundred percent sure parents karabagh father village , two years old family moved baku , elder brothers go school student naval school , never graduated went work virgin lands one gigantic agricultural projects instituted returned lived baku , later moved sumgait , helping town 's construction mamma village , also karabagh worked sumgait , first bookstore , later , construction site sister older lives husband karabagh always loved parents went 9th grade , dream would continue studies finished 8th grade wanted enter baku school , , military school later changed mind , rather , parents got , saying would better finish 10th grade join naval school planning navy almost whole life long since childhood dreamed father wanted anything always youth , telling school , always said made big mistake leaving live karabagh never plan leave stay home grandfather , ancestors , till end days hospital baku learned fates many others suffered well , like managed hold residence microdistrict 3 , building 6 2 , apartment 6 long time , lost father gabriel , miracle managed survive also learned uncle sasha , building 5 2 , whose daughter raped besides , valery forgot last name hospital , year younger , went school 14 riding parents car people throwing rocks , hit , parents brought hospital , ward even came friends seen around town hospital got know one another better learned fates others , died , misfortune today , first secretary communist party armenia , shown television honest glad armenia agreed recognize nagorno karabagh part armenian soviet socialist republic repelled , , revolted , hear baku announcer read decision azerbaijani supreme soviet karabagh becoming part armenia events sumgait baku , best solution give karabagh armenia , return armenia , since people want live peacefully azerbaijanis , everything right arrived karabagh april 11 felt bad constant headaches strength returned older sister , , took think justice prevail people demanding due ca n't take away due parents often spoke nagorno karabagh , often visited spent almost even decided karabagh would made part armenia , would move sure always said armenian people suffered much , done 1921 removing nagorno karabagh armenia wrong sooner later , mistakes corrected order correct mistake , must repeated fate nagorno karabagh lies hands government june 13 , 1988 stepanakert david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org explain turkish troops p center regional studies armenian border , ca n't p box 382761 even explain 1915 \? cambridge , 02238 turkish mp , march 1992
shaig think com \( shai guday \) subject islam borders vs israeli borders organization thinking machines corporation , cambridge , usa lines 47 distribution world nntp posting host composer think com article c50wjj j4r newsflash concordia ca , ilyess ece concordia ca \( ilyess bdira \) writes article bimacs bitnet ehrlich bimacs bitnet \( gideon ehrlich \) writes borders islamic world dreams \? \? islamic world dreams whole planet , kicking current inhabitant , rather deam day everybody converts jews dream , would feel threatened bit contrary protocols zion crowd might suggest , judaism goals islamic readers , waiting honest answer want also honest answer zionists following questions 1 \) jews n't even believe god \( case many founders secular zionism \) right palestine inhabitants palestine , god gave land \? question ask complicated deserves honest answer going provide one current perspective , historical one currently , non jew israeli american , feeling jews diaspora greater right palestine israel , palestinians israelis \( arab jew \) regard jewish israelis , rights israel israelis 2 \) speak west bank inhabitants jews want part israel \? \? mean non religious jews , think aware majority settlers supporters religious part problem , knowledge , palestinians n't want part israel , much would accept \( part \) full citizens israel , responsibilities accorded israeli citizens object current find shai guday stealth bombers , os software engineer thinking machines corp winged ninjas skies cambridge ,
hasan mcrcim mcgill edu subject 18 israelis murdered march originator hasan mcrcim mcgill edu nntp posting host mcrcim mcgill edu organization mcgill research centre intelligent machines lines 206 sorry guys long article , fact mostly article flax frej teknikum uu se , flax frej teknikum uu se \( jonas flygare \) writes intentionally neglecting important fact whole israeli presence occupied territories illegitimate , hence actions , courts , laws illegitimate ground occupied territories , neglecting , i'm merely asking whether existance israeli citicens wb gaza invalidates individuals right live , \( eloquently put \) human right get back question law used territories later also , question israelis also human rights first , statement doesnot say existence israeli citizens wb revoke right life says israeli occupation wb revoke right life citizens basically right military men clearly , occupation undeclared war war , attacks military targets fully legitimate ok , let phrase question repeatedly asked israelis less human rights palestinians , well , waited 5 lines would read statement secondly , surely israeli human rights , , belong human race , disagree \? posting \( directly adress question \) inferred thought together statement assumed reason actions state israel statement occupation 'd like define term , n't repeat answer procedure neccesary secondly , surely israeli human rights , ask goverment protect withdrawing occupied terretories , oppressing palestinean human rights i'm sorry , sentence make sense please rephrase donot know , makes full sense israelis killed israel occupying , let israel withdraw israeli blood saved palestineans undermined right life israelis , israel occupied exposed life citizens war 1967 ! generally , violence occupied terretories part intifada , previously posted long article issue , finished open question suppose intifada stops , motive israel withdraw \? donot tell hope peace bullshit everybody world looks hopes peace , hope peace necessary sufficient motive state deprive 's citizens human rights actions , tell human living today rights \? states like israel , oppressive , ignorant , tyrant oh , ok human rights syrians , iraqis others \? name hama sound familiar \? kurds iraq turkey \? sweden \( ok , maybe bit \) russians baltic states moslem old ussr yugoslavia \? serbs human rights , according \? arabian countries , problems arabian concern arabian people deal , west doesnot intervene serbs , donot think fucked rapists \( excuse language really hurts much bosnia \) humans surely came outer space something human allow see attrocities participate system propose use solve problem \? question system would solve problem \? system solve laws minister sharon says kick palestineans \( palestine \) asked system used , preserve human rights people involved assumed obvious , wo n't repeat mistake straightened , i'm eagerly awaiting reply agree israeli solution preserve human rights \( understanding first statement paragraph \) , i'm agreeing kick palestinians israel proper would probably lead disaster parties 's refer ok joseph weitz \( administrator responsible jewish colonization \) said best writing diary 1940 must clear room peoples together country shall achieve goal independent people arabs small country solution palestine , least western palestine \( west jordan river \) without arabs way transfer arabs neighbouring countries , transfer one village , one tribe , left transfer country able absorb millions brethren way davar , 29 september , 1967 \( courtesy marc afifi \) question disregard rather obvious references getting israel one way plo covenant hamas charter \( 's english translations , information 'd interested translate \) give credence private paper even older \? i'm going get question wrote , 's fairly obvious parties conflict share fanatics guess \? people make lasting peace region deleted stuff exactly , right guess problem israeli goverment full men like joseph weitz oh \? met personally , read diaries \? fascinating living \? either refers zionists jews \( donot know \) well , give answer , master wisdom , suggest imperialist israeli system solving problem ! think fair enough , answer , since asked system could solve problem said could used , provided contradiction wrote understood meant \( underlined \) system used solve conflict , system would resolve justly unjust solution would non solution , per definition , \? definition , one look world politics politics , solution doesnot imply solution said following holds property b exists property b hold thus , either statements must false guess takes logic \? never never land proving first understood meant , claim didnot claim contradiction logic bad , master wisdom merely pointing small flaw reasoning since claim logical felt best point started using statements prove point assume logical \? seems problem definition solution think solution must , otherwise would never lasting however , politicians say solution , donot mean solution solution greatest problem zionism arab children rabbi shoham oh , way , let add cute quotes put end real bummer , try giving posts credit feel ashamed things facts believe , zionists believe zionist codes acts , well feel sorry , rabbi shoham said yes , zionism racism feel ashamed bothered zionist codes , drop zionism zionist , bothered join condemning racist zionist codes acts quote misused , especially used stereotype individuals statement individual use methods credit , place \? oh , way , 'd advice assume anything condemning acts find vile inhuman , 'll try long assume acts whole people zionist mean state israel , government israel , leaders israel \( political religious \) jews general \? feel need condemn , condemn responsible instead would feel started condemning personally based bombings egypt \? jonas flygare , hasan
warren ac il \( warren burstein \) subject many mutlus dance head pin \? article organization , jerusalem , israel lines 23 1993apr5 mnemosyne cs du edu jfurr nyx cs du edu \( joel furr \) writes dunno , warren day heard rumor serdar argic \( aka hasan mutlu ahmed cosar zumabot \) really turk , fact armenian attempting make discussion massacres armenia turks noise laden make serious discussion impossible , thereby historical record tremendous cloud confusion hasan b 's middle name \? i'm sure , heard also seem recall argic bites wax macedonian n't mail address , finding snail address \? instead rumors , could redirect ahmed cosar seven year old greek boy incurable case crossposting wish get usenet book world records highest noise signal ratio warren nysernet org
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject completely systematically exterminated armenians reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 96 article 401 polaris async vt edu jfurr polaris async vt edu \( joel furr \) writes shown unrepentant \( though embarrassed \) still possessed fucked hubris laden self righteousness theory kills spirit criminal nazi armenians asala sdpa arf terrorism revisionism triangle , try dealing rest wrote , activities armenian government seem efforts aimed race \( turks \) aimed carrying one sided , instead struggle liberation outset , efforts armenian revolutionaries within ottoman borders took form terrorist destructive actions aimed mass murder , cruelty genocide , interpretation possible armenian activities started reign ii individual acts terror , developed assassinations surprise attacks element brute force activities increased steadily , mass widespread fighting first world war furthermore , ottoman army withdrew eastern anatolia 1915 sarikamis defeat , armenian revolutionaries initiated series cruelties area although russians occupied eastern anatolia enemy , nevertheless constrained rules war however , returned country 1917 revolution , armenian revolutionaries unchecked area year ottoman forces returned erzurum 1918 period , armenian revolutionaries executed massacres local people recorded historical documents 1 example , let us look report dated 21 march 1918 commander third army submitted entered erzurum erzincan completely systematically destroyed burned armenians , even trees cut , like building entirely consumed fire every sense word people living erzurum erzincan capable fighting taken away beginning excuse forced labor road construction , taken direction sarikamis annihilated russian army withdrew , part remaining people destroyed armenian massacres cruelties thrown wells , locked houses burned , killed bayonets swords , places selected butchering spots , bellies torn open , lungs pulled , girls women hanged hair subjected every conceivable abominable act small part people spared abominations far worse cruelty inquisition resembled living dead suffering temporary insanity dire poverty lived frightful experiences subjected including women children , persons discovered far exceed one thousand five hundred erzincan thirty thousand erzurum fields erzincan erzurum , everything people taken away , found situation present time , people subsisting food obtained , impelled starvation , russian left behind occupation area 2 foreign observers witnessed events , including russian officers desert lines , submitted detailed reports proving genocide ottoman commanders received prisoners war important stated reports 'the massacres happen chance planned ' 3 end war , german author dr weiss , austrian colleague dr stein turkish colleague mr ahmet visited trabzon , kars , erzurum batum april 17th may 20th 1918 record cruelties writings show scope armenian activities , also reveal goal true nature 4 1 \( ottoman state , ministry war \) , islam ahalinin ducar olduklari mezalim hakkinda vesaike mustenid malumat , \( istanbul , 1918 \) french version documents aux par les armeniens sur la population , \( istanbul , 1919 \) latin script h k turkozu , ed , osmanli sovyet belgeleriyle ermeni mezalimi , \( ankara , 1982 \) addition z basar , ed , ermenilerden gorduklerimiz , \( ankara , 1974 \) , edited author , ermeniler hakkinda makaleler derlemeler , \( ankara , 1978 \) askeri tarih belgeleri , vol 32 , 83 \( december 1983 \) , document numbered 1881 2 askeri tarih belgeleri , vol 31 , 81 \( december 1982 \) , document numbered 1869 3 's report dated 29 april 1918 quoted ermeniler , vol 2 , p 275 4 r \( altinay \) , iki komite iki kital , \( istanbul , 1919 \) , , kafkas yollarinda hatiralar tahassusler \( istanbul , 1919 \) serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject nazi germany , armenians considered aryan race reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 41 article news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) writes letter chronicle date , time imagination \? another one source , berlin , december 1939 , nr 2 5 6 yet another historical fact fact years deliberately forgotten , concealed , wiped memory fact armenian nazi collaboration magazine called der deutsch clearest definite proof collaboration magazine first published berlin 1938 nazi rule germany continued publication end 1944 even name magazine , implies declaration armenian nazi cooperation , attention getting magazine , every issue proves collaboration , historically important documentary evidence heap writing world opinion mankind nazi germany , armenians considered aryan race certain political , economic , social rights thus granted occupied positions public service partners nazi practices whole world course knows awaited considered aryan befell serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
ilyess ece concordia ca \( ilyess bdira \) subject greek prime minister shows support serbian criminals keywords international , non usa government , government , fighting , civil rights , social issues article organization ece concordia university lines 67 nntp posting host davinci ece concordia ca headline much better original one read article yugoslav clarinet com clarinews clarinet com \( \) writes belgrade , yugoslavia \( upi \) greek prime minister constantine mitsotakis visited capital serbia montenegro federation tuesday apparent attempt press serbian leaders accepting international plan end war bosnia herzegovina far good ``i came old friend country help solving burning problem bosnia herzegovina , '' mitsotakis told reporters talking two hours president milosevic serbia old friend , whatever ``i come discuss particular plan came hear serbian point view , '' said , adding serbia trying bring peace region '' great attitude someone wants pressure serbs accept peace plan gives territory got force terror milosevic said serbia greece identical bosnian war , started late march 1992 good thing hear anybody wondering serbia really boycott \? anybody remembers gulf war \? saddam kill 100 , 000 people rape 50 , 000 women \? effort pressure milosevic , considered main patron serbian territorial conquest bosnia , u n security council threatened impose new sanctions serbia montenegro implement fly zone bosnian skies still threatening stage maybe bosnians , un lift arms embargo ! military intervention \? reserved muslim countries hear meeting milosevic , mitsotakis separate talks karadzic , leader bosnian serbs ``i encouraged mr karadzic proceed efforts achieve peace region , '' said ``we ready play positive role balkans , '' said mitsotakis real positive might add , favor old course ! karadzic said meet greek premier one sided , tend condemn one bet ! side war , '' said karadzic ``we continue negotiate levels , '' said meeting milosevic , mitsotakis talks president federal yugoslav union serbia montenegro , patriarch , head priest serbian orthodox church anybody still convinced religious war \? psychopath like considered course sent 100 , 000 muslims permanent peace blessings patriarch
jar2e faraday clas virginia edu \( virginia 's gentleman \) subject go hezbollah ! ! organization university virginia lines 4 really try understanding brad , appears killing knows jesse
bc744 cleveland freenet edu \( mark ira kaufman \) subject brad hernlem vs principle organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 50 nntp posting host thor ins cwru edu effort make sure forget moron , brad hernlem asked israel rarely un security council resolutions perhaps list might answer question incident security council response 1 hindu moslem clash india , 2 , 000 killed , 1990 none 2 gassing death 8 , 000 kurds none iraqi air force , 1988 89 3 saudi security forces slaughter none 400 pilgrims mecca , 1987 4 killing algerian army 500 demonstrators , 1988 none 5 \( arabs killing arabs \) 300 killed none 6 30 , 000 civilians slaughtered government none troops hama , syria , 1982 7 killing 5 , 000 palestinians jordanian troops , none thousands expelled , sept , 1970 8 87 moslems killed egypt , 1981 none 9 77 killed bread riots , 1977 none 10 30 border rocket attacks israel none plo 1989 alone 11 munich , 1972 11 israeli athletes slaughtered none 12 , 1974 children killed plo attack none 13 israel coastal bus attack 34 dead , 82 wounded none 14 syria kills 23 , 000 palestinians , 1976 none 15 lebanon 150 , 000 dead since 1975 none 16 yemen 13 , 000 killed two weeks , 1986 none 17 sudan tens thousands black slaves , none civil war toll , 1 million killed , 3 million refugees 18 square massacre 1989 none 19 rumania , 3 , 000 killed , 1989 none 20 pan 103 disaster carried p l none 21 northern ireland none 22 cambodia none 23 soviet occupation afghanistan none 24 american riots , watts , newark , kent state none 25 1981 israel destroys iraqi , israel condemned 26 1990 israeli police protect israeli worshipers condemned arab mob , 18 anti jewish rioters killed 27 syrian soldiers slaughter christian soldiers none surrender , 1990 appears brad hernlem united nations security council something common seem demands acting principle
gfx engga uwo ca \( mr mubashir rizvi \) subject humanity bosnia organization univ western ontario , london ont ca keywords barbarism nntp posting host gfx engga uwo ca lines 11 encouraging number people took interest posting recieved couple letters , debated statement events bosnia unprecedented history modern world contest statement present figures world war ii however must keep mind world war country power stop , today matter power seems lack second point difference \( makes different \( sp \? \) \) time international community didnot enough muscle prevent unfortunate event , today might , international community standing neutral placed arms embargo obvious disadvantage side therefore advantage bully hence possibly unintentionally , mankind sided killers , think unprecedented history modern world rizvi
tankut iastate edu \( sabri atan \) subject turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece \( armenia azeris \) reply tankut iastate edu \( sabri atan \) organization iowa state university lines 43 article news cso uiuc edu , ptg2351 uxa cso uiuc edu \( panos tamamidis \) writes yeah , much mutlu argic n't helping could , one day , proceed n't think many turks read mutlu argic stuff kill file , likewise fanatic \( nothing greeks problem fanatics met many greeks would n't even talk turkish experience , friends always open greeks \) well , history , wars , current situations , help well , panos , mr tamamidis \? , way put turks bear responsibility things happening today hard believe somebody trying objective comes conflicts like countries cannot blame one side , always bad guys sides anatolia ww1 anyway \? think right \? saying conflicts started one side aggressive ither always suffering sad \( \) still trying compromise remember action turkish government removing visa requirement greeks come turkey thought positive attempt make relations better greeks mentioned would n't talk educated people never met know ! bad person turkey politics business , business turks comes individuals hatred \? makes think kind brainwashing going greece would educated person treat every person nation way \? tell history books things learn greek turkish encounters schooling take easy ! tankut atan tankut iastate edu achtung , baby !
nstramer supergas dazixco ingr com \( naftaly stramer \) subject peace talks nntp posting host supergas reply nstramer dazixco ingr com organization intergraph electronics lines 23 israeline 4 14 today 's ma'ariv reports yesterday , following egyptian president mubarak 's meeting plo chief yasser arafat prominent palestinian faisal al husseini , latter said principle , palestinians decided participate peace talks nonetheless , noted everything decided upon meeting arab foreign ministers damascus newspaper also reports threatening phone calls recently made houses several senior members palestinian delegation peace talks threats , arabic , demanded delegates go washington , sell palestinian people one caller threatened , go , find family alive upon return newspaper states phone calls received , far known , houses faisal al husseini , others naftaly stramer intergraph electronics internet nstramer dazixco ingr com 6101 lookout road , suite voice \( 303 \) 581 2370 fax \( 303 \) 581 9972 boulder , co 80301 quality everybody 's job , 's everybody 's job watch
dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) subject accounts anti armenian human rights violations azerbaijan 007 summary prelude current events nagorno karabakh organization p center regional studies lines 821 accounts anti armenian human rights violations azerbaijan 007 prelude current events nagorno karabakh grab papa , carry one room , mamma another put mamma bed start , beating legs start tearing clothes , right , front mamma n't remember went , , much time passed feeling beat head , body , tore clothes , time , n't even know said atrocities started savagely raped room argued among would go first deposition \( karina \) 1 born 1964 secretary typist trust sumgait construction installation administration secretary smu komsomol organization resident building 17 , apartment 15 microdistrict 3 sumgait azerbaijan 27th sister marina went movies seven o'clock show , theater across city party committee , 50 yards away sk theater showing argentinian film , abyss film noticed 60 70 people standing near podium city party committee , silent , 's conversation whatsoever , could n't figure going , knew karabagh , exactly , talking , someone gave speech , n't know bought tickets 30 40 people theater small number large movie theater film started 30 minutes later stopped film crowd burst 60 people came onto stage well mostly young people , 16 23 years old demanded armenian woman come onto stage used foul language said going show azerbaijanis capable , could armenian girls thought 's meant demanded girl specifically marina sitting together told move , russian girls sitting nearby someone recognized something happened , would take , marina got quiet , 2 3 girls jumped run , door closed 's opened end show returned seats everyone theater looking one another , russians , azerbaijanis , people various nationalities one reacted , one auditorium made sound silent , looking one another , gradually started leave guy , really fat one , says , ok , 've scared enough , let 's leave leave slowly , seemed people either smoked bunch , taken something else , looked , like ready tear anyone apart , though nothing happened film started , one cheerful films brought pleasure , made happy alive could barely sit end started seven nine , dark marina walking home , lenin street , 's center town lenin street packed , packed young people shouting , something karabagh something armenians n't especially listening , way feeling n't know going make home , happened anyway \? public transportation n't running incidentally , came theater saw police , policemen standing director movie theater looking doors , leaving broken glass , doors basically glass everything broken stood grief stricken , looking though nothing really big happened , like naughty boys broken quite accident , slingshot well , since looked less calm decided , nothing super serious happened went slowly wanted catch bus , live literally one stop away n't want go foot , dark , something might happen cab , driver n't want take us told live near bus station , said 'd take us bus station yard farther said , well , ok got cab managed get something incredible happening bus station traffic jam public transportation everyone shouting ka ra , 're going give karabagh go home tell family 's going , 's immediate panic house mamma says , \? like end come , going come , kill us , 's somehow managed cheer nothing bad could happen living anyway , kind social order \? somehow manage calm mamma went bed one could sleep everyone made though nothing happened saturday short , day went n't go anywhere n't call relatives one anything life goes day realized something approaching , exactly , could n't guess 28th everything like supposed , lived like always five us home mamma , papa us , three sisters lyuda , marina , sister lyuda yerevan time sat home one went later learned demonstration started morning started smashing stores sitting home n't know anything girlfriend mine , lyuda , came around three o'clock think worked together , together , 's russian girl said something awful happening town asked , n't want armenians \? well , 're already state \? says , , nothing like , 's demonstration , 's awful watch somehow , feels like war broken public transportation stopped , buses , well 's nightmare papa decides go , mother allergy problems time left house neighbor , aunt vera , asked , going \? stop ! terrible things going courtyard n't afraid go \? papa n't know talking simply pushed back entryway came home told mamma mamma said , well , aunt vera talking like means something really going n't go see , 's russian , lives across us see friend around five o'clock tell lyuda , ok , look , 's time go , 's late already , 'll see mamma says , n't need go , 's late already , see situation town decided stay home dinner ready mamma says , let eat us , go sat table one hungry , one mood , put everything table calm , make appear 're eating turned television , show fairy tale land coming cleared table hear noise courtyard go balcony , ca n't see 's going , noise coming direction bus station , 9 story building way mob people ca n't figure 's happening 're shouting something , looking somewhere , ca n't make going go neighbor , 's azerbaijani 've friends family 25 years go look place see people shouting , looking 5 9 story buildings near bus station soldiers set upon , 20 people , clubs mob runs different directions even see several people building looking laughing decide means 's bad laughing means 're killing anyone crowd suddenly toward soldiers one soldiers cannot manage get away , start feet , everyone 's kicking become ill go home , explain general terms horrible things going ca n't speak well , 've probably killed soldier , way crowd kicked took club away started beat far away could n't see got left become terrified go home say , lyuda , n't go anywhere , stay place , go could kill crowd runs closer toward building stands 12 story building starts shouting something go onto balcony neighbors also , everyone standing , staring mob shouting 5 minutes later comes running toward building turns , 12 story building azerbaijani neighbors went kept coming 's one entryway , could stop run building mamma immediately starts closing windows , afraid might throw stones stones break windows , many people large courtyard , 's packed people spill first floor n't crush crawl trees , posts , garages 's huge cloud people break burn motorcycle armenian , building close windows immediately hear entryway come fifth floor tremendous din roar 's mamma told later shouting father 's name , , open door , 've come kill ! , something like n't remember , spaced , kind mamma says , bedroom , quickly ! bedroom two tall beds , part mamma says , hide , probably wo n't come , 'll ask something , say something , leave says , 'll tell live alone ca n't imagine parents stand hall alone talking sort beasts go say 'll stand together , 'll talk come , maybe find common language , know speak azerbaijani less , find want told marina lyuda hide bed , sister lyuda , ca n't remember told anything open door 's like blew broke fell right hall crows bursts starts shout get , leave , apartment go back armenia things like tell , happened , speak calmly one , tell , calmly , happened azerbaijani , say , get apartment , leave say , ok go downstairs 'll gather everything need leave apartment realize senseless discuss sort rights , animals must stopped ones standing doorway , young guys , say , old people one girl bad ! take two three steps back seems though pacified exchange someone courtyard shouts , commanding n't understand saying \? kill \? ! took grab papa , carry one room , mamma another put mamma bed start , beating legs start tearing clothes , right , front mamma n't remember went , , much time passed feeling beat head , body , tore clothes , time , n't even know said atrocities started savagely raped room argued among would go first later , remember , came n't know i'm dead alive someone comes , someone tall , think , clean , eskimo coat , looks around 's happening instant everything stops seems either commander somehow everything depends looks says , well , 're done beating mamma head break chairs beat chair legs loses consciousness , decide 's dead papa cold want throw lyuda balcony , ca n't get window open apparently window frames stuck rain windows ca n't opened leave next window thinking thrown window passed 's real strong person anyway looks sees i'm saying something , i'm still twitching well , start saying opposite , humbling pleading start shouting , cursing n't get already know i'm dead , would humble anyone \? says 's think , since tongue long maybe thinks still look quite appealing short , commands taken outside longer saw remembered happening marina lyuda , n't know alive take outside dragging arms , legs hitting wall , , something metal carrying someone biting , someone else pinching n't even know think , god , death come \? sooner carry , throw near entryway start kicking lose consciousness happened , many people , n't remember come , n't remember long neighbor bringing clothing i'm entirely covered blood , puts dress remember said words mamma , happened , mamma , done us , , whose house \? ca n't make sense anything guy standing , sort know , served afghanistan , name igor , brought went third entryway killed person , igor gathered courage , took arms , brought neighbors' , even though 's small minded , put risk igor azerbaijani served afghanistan three brothers older brother also served , think 's stationed , border , armenia igor brought neighbors' , helped come senses , saying , karina , know , calm , i'm one know 's 's \? come , clean covered blood papa saw papa , saw mamma marina , igor dragged marina lyuda bed marina lyuda said russian , said , 'll let go , n't touching russians , go dragging marina decides 's going tell 's azerbaijani igor immediately grabs marina 's lyuda 's hands , knows marina , knows armenian sister , takes second floor neighbor 's starts pounding door open opens door igor pushes survived sister lyuda lost consciousness bandits started stealing things going downstairs , taking things downstairs , coming back , lyuda seized opportunity crawled bed stayed , , found torn night shirt put , sort robe went neighbor 's fourth floor , one whose apartment watched crowd , friend , knocked door neighbor opened said , i'm going let apartment i'm afraid 'll give stockings 'll leave building lyuda says , 'll stay place 's going , keep going stairs moment , moment life , neighbor would n't consent lyuda came back place lay bed came mother ca n't remember supervisor 's telephone number , something done somehow remembered called , came get us n't idea going thought simply afraid , n't know killing us passed life death came got us took us police precinct looked us trouble walking , lungs hurt badly , hard breathe supervisor 's name urshan mamedov 's head administration took us leaving , saw great number buses full soldiers entrance town buses ordinary passenger buses many soldiers left around eleven , right eleven people could stop happening could save great many lives crowd moving , toward school , going think everyone know sumgait , yerevan murdered one next , without stopping us think 14 people died microdistrict 3 , 10 12 buildings 4 , 5 , 6 building one person died , one old woman died building 16 , 's building front young azerbaijani men stopped mob would n't let building incidentally , neighbors' , marina called relatives warn , would know happening called aunt microdistrict 5 three neighbors armenians said , run quickly , ca n't explain 's going hide , , stay alive hide , ones wo n't give away moment three people came , policemen think azerbaijanis awful condition , face completely distorted lips puffed , blood , eye swollen , one thought would ever see anything eye forehead badly cut , one half face pushed forward one would thought would survive , get normal appearance back , able grasp anything started scream people , come , sent , one wants , n't killed people people yet , \? one soldiers said , n't scream us 're muslims , 're sumgait police called daghestan point daghestan police got police precinct awful lot police , soldiers , police dogs , , firemen n't know , maybe waiting people bring seriously injured treat police precinct n't know also doctors baku examined lyuda said , women need go maternity home , n't know rest took us , lost contact parents , boss , everyone boss said , n't worry , 'll find , matter , matter happens went hospital examined department head sumgait maternity home , , think name examined us ambulance baku figured sumgait n't done anything , n't respond calls people called neither police showed sign life doctor looked could tell behavior something good happened , became quite glad even thought , god , nothing bad wrong \? looks says , suffering \? n't know people , people even worse things think , great , deal felt bad , thought , n't die hear stuff like people like \? condition told something people n't energy say , could people possibly smart enough think something n't already done \? stayed brought another woman , ira b , married , raped apartment , three us , ira , lyuda , 1 next morning took lyuda ira away n't anything help us old maternity home , combined block n't anything examine , n't want shots tranquilizer , nothing shots could calmed \? n't even want look lay ward either worked way pur pose , alone alone even though wards packed evening woman came asked wrong , face disfigured asked happened , said , better ask brother happened , 's point asking , brother better explain happened fell faint doctors threw , doctor categorically forbade anyone come ward people work came see , boss , daughter brought clothing , literally naked thing dress , woman gave short , dress way knees , woman orderly said , ca n't believe put short dress , showing legs \? went back ward thinking , one thing something people work came brought something sack , apples , think , three four pounds , could n't take become weak embarrassing said could n't take apples , really n't appetite one bring anything woman took sack , oh yes ! heard head doctor tell nurse medical history hidden torn completely one would know armenian , maybe would n't figure looking must thinking would kind attack , something else would happen would worse , perhaps , someone outside street , n't know case , n't sleep wink night next morning picked , whole police detail , put bus , went n't even know taking took club troops , one ill evening got bus near city party committee great many troops , tanks , armored personnel carriers whole scene terrible saw people knew , calmed little already thought one left five six us left sumgait night still n't know happened parents , n't come see hospital , boss told everything fine n't know whether believe maybe trying calm , maybe something happened way went club saw lot people knew knew one another , kissing asking , happened , went \? two days later came see work time day came , showed interest , constantly bringing money everything could course i'm thankful boss , one colleagues n't lose presence mind n't change opinions , neither , , heat moment , matter happened constantly took interest sincere interest , heart , two days later , secretary party committee came , party organization , first trust , part , comrade , important figure town made arrangements emergency medical personnel take away , sat could n't get lie something wrong lungs , hard breathe examined several times , lay several doctors , thought must blows , n't know n't diagnose anything particular maternity home even asked made point insisting take trauma section felt awful way something inside n't broken , ribs well took took x rays said everything fine emergency medical workers duty club mother one marina 's friends head doctor sumgait children 's clinic every kind agent world , exactly needed moment , thought said great difficulty breathing , could n't seem get enough air , something wrong put tight around chest waist later overheard people saying cut think saw decided breasts face cut n't cut took us khimik boarding house lived long time soon appeared representatives first people would talk , drove one armenian women shouted , demand seidov come ! response , 's seidov sent us seidov chairman azerbaijani council ministers woman said , 'll see seidov 's daughter , come , 'll things daughters , 'll deal said , seidov come went day , day kept coming coming , drove us wits people gradually started yerevan realized senseless stay everything got nerves smell , small children children sk club , children literally come maternity home club n't even running water time \? first pay eat even us , turned second day someone told us would bring us food free children ill everything stank well imagine 3 , 000 people small movie theater seating 500 could n't sit lie , impossible even move awful even smallest infants took ill overnight heard arriving seriously ill yerevan , infants washed , , mention , adults , ill needed care people fainting right left n't know , everyone crying , everyone young people , men , somehow managed keep together women constant state panic seemed everyone would come minute kill stab seemed clear gathered together purposely , like war , could burn movie theater would n't single armenian left people went attic n't see , heard , lying could n't get lay right stage , room apparently caught two people either oil gas think wanted burn theater maybe someone saw , n't condition open eyes everyone suspicious everyone else would ask , n't azerbaijani \? think saw somewhere , think 're azerbaijani led men started letting back checking passports , relatives might covering half people documents people run homes nothing pair pants slippers , wearing shirt , like , ids 28th , sunday , think , police nothing help us monday everything resumed left block n't spare soul children , pregnant women , nobody killed , burned , hacked axes , everything possible murdered melkumian family knew , mother worked daughter law went school older sister brutally murdered two daughters law survived miracle one able save , ran away , neighbors would n't take , ran building found refuge pregnant two small children continued monday block , 29th , troops already city murdered people , overturned automobiles , burned entire families say n't even know sure people armenians heard lezgins suffered , i'm sure , n't see lezgins injured burned cars 's difficult say exactly died n't difficult identify corpses , rather , remained corpses gasoline burned 's hard imagine , course heard many people disappeared without trace , btz plant two people , including woman worked night shift , aunt , also lived microdistrict 3 stopping buses baku sumgait evening people visiting baku returning sumgait , people baku going home sumgait , students , simply savagely murdered stopping buses , drivers immediately told way deal hoard brutally minded people stopped buses , dragged armenians killed spot n't see , heard put pile burn later hard discern corpses , well ca n't call corpses , figure ashes l heard two fellows saved two women , one student , ira g , i'm mistaken hospital long time , still ca n't figure saved also brutally raped beaten thrown onto pile corpses fellow pulled whole pile corpses , put coat , took arms , carried city still ca n't imagine managed heard engels grigorian knows , apparently well lot people went hospital anyway hospital singing song armenian , wrote words , , think still piece paper , says lot people song , one sang hospital lay bad shape could n't find guy saved left someone 's apartment called ambulance , awful shape , probably , like , could n't remember anyone 's face think knew one people broke house , maybe talked received many blows everything knocked head ca n't remember day , seems , saw secretary 's party organization , marina works goes school works , goes night school , works day construction installation administration i'm secretary komsomol organization administration often met secretaries party komsomol organizations joint meetings know , 've even talked , , know , armenia azerbaijani , armenia became obvious many people azerbaijanis born armenia took various police stations , police precinct , procuracy , ussr procuracy got involved case , photographs people could less recognize showed people apartment , 're working case , ca n't even recognize , although proved ones , 're processing somehow tell know someone held arm someone else held leg dragging someone else apartment even touch , stole blanket earring something like people , , much 've heard seen , kafan secretary party organization named , everything started must n't recognize anyone else crowd knew besides since told , listen , something , know turned away went toward bedroom , marina well could n't see marina anyway noisy confusion people could n't make anyone flew right head , gradually became , city party committee military people told went , wrote told name march 8 secretary first trust party organization , one 're part , came see us , name tell mamma , 's despite fact gave name , means either alibi confirmed , probably , think i'm crazy , responsible words said , , awful , , hid armenian family time goes comes back says something entirely different n't home , family went baku said , marina , saying \? said something totally different n't go see procurator , case handled procurator , fedorov name fedorov told 's case gotten , names involved \? prove alibi \? think since hit head ca n't say anything sure , whether insult apartment n't pay , time i'm afraid say i'm hundred percent sure mat ter name , tell , , 're wrong , n't , one n't faces gotten mixed mind exactly ca n't say took outside whole crowd , n't see , eyes closed time seemed always got eyes , people always , reason always seemed eyes responsible beating face thought trying put eyes eyes closed , took outside started beat young guy , 22 , held arms , works btz plant right nearby , across road us , block 41 , going right across road us btz dormitory , 's lives 's custody , even proved , far know , killed gambarian , clarinet player third entryway building one person building killed , man guy comes shared room guy holding saw holding arms beating , n't come , looked went dormitory , people started making announcements town saying investigators summoned guy went told everything 've caught , everything 's proved , evidently , 've beating , n't know 're , said working night shift plant young guy came plant said , everyone wants kill armenians come bus station saturday ten said , ones wanted , went btz plant , night shift , probably , late friday night night , together said , mean , understand saying \? others silent , probably , hearts thinking , i'm going go n't say anything one another said thought important go , heard lot happened kafan , killed azerbaijani sisters , mothers , burned villages , guy also born kafan certain marina says secretary party organization armenia , 've participated investigation couple times i'm satisfied thus far summoned us asked happened , every word said recorded met guy way , armenian said apartment , , n't know last name grigorian , eduard grigorian sumgait , microdistrict 1 sentenced think , five years , first time mother russian met kgb baku , azerbaijani kgb took us showed photographs many photographs , think even photographed people caught curfew , 've got confused say , face like , guy white coat red could take coat burn somewhere , would like looking needle well guy , grigorian , said , apartment , light looks like lezgin n't know , ca n't remember maybe beat raped apartment kgb started asking , pleading , 's need , stuff , look eyes , 're like sister took look thought , god , heaven forbid brother like satisfied responses , said everything without great certainty mamma lyuda came , came got sick immediately wanted kill , crawled table recognized came , lyuda lying balcony , mob threw ran bedroom kinds boxes dishes , three sisters stole everything apartment , leaving small things moment lyuda came started remembering everything well , seeing faces , hearing voices two people saying could burn apartment another says , burn apartment 've got three kids place live guy temporary housing , n't anywhere live , sumgait sure would get apartment besides , neighbors azerbaijani burn apartment , might burn azerbaijanis 's said know azerbaijanis , picked place , thinking armenians lived \? list residents part building , name , could know azerbaijanis lived side wall us \? n't set fire apartment n't know , bad shape come halt outside , someone asked happening , would said civil war going well , maybe civil probably civil , beating opened eyes saw neighbors standing balconies watching , like free horror film civil war going , armenians fought world war something like , would fighting everyone fought us met women building , azerbaijanis crying , tell , karina , saw , could happen \? 're asking ! well n't know call normal girl stand watch happened think way around either would n't able take , would tried avert , like one azerbaijani woman front building woman lives , awful , woman , call woman , life leads two armenian families live , part building came balcony saw happening started scream curse came entryway said , 'll come entryway dead body one took head go entryway folks saying people control n't even know n't think 's true knew well n't even lift hand woman could n't cared less , fact azerbaijani stopped beasts , smoked much came place chewing something noticed everyone came apartment chewing something think , god , maybe think \? maybe i'm losing mind \? , 're chewing something maybe kind drug , must , first glance seemed normal people , young , clean , looking exactly come sort celebration shouting something n't talk , shouted , though deaf people screamed screamed yeah , killing , killing , 're killing armenians ! n't shout kill , shouted gurun gurun literally means kill , destroy 's ! 'll continue hid captain 's apartment , 's azerbaijani , wife sitting apartment , kids yard kids knew whole lot part building , third floor mamma came could n't find lyuda took papa 's hand , stealing things , n't pay attention stealing things apparently already ceased killing switched stealing mamma found courage boy said mother 's gold \? mamma said must 12 14 years old even looked russian , fair skinned azerbaijanis armenia fair skinned noticed fair side shouted , smashing things , asks mamma gold kept gold wardrobe important papers little black bag , kept everything mamma n't really like wear gold probably never even wore things time bought took everything lying glass mamma thinks gold saved us threw gold , mamma grabbed papa , trying breathe closed mouth , bound hands , put chair face shoved something mouth would mamma grabbed tore stuff something mouth , trouble breathing , nose filled blood mamma grabbed started running fifth first floor one wanted open doors mamma said accident , completely accident person opened door , sleeping , said , half awake , 's happened \? sees bloody mamma said , least go find 's happening daughters , even 've burned murdered , least bring corpses went looking us moment lyuda bed says left seemed someone calling name quietly called could n't get bed wanted get calling softly thought shouting , fact either silent talking , seemed shouting got bed everyone gone thought lost mind 'll never leave , never ! hell ! seems way , 'll come eventually , everything settled , stopped , mall brought lyuda , igor carried outside first brought , lyuda , n't remember order happened mamma said , listen , 're running around , shouting something , running toward building less calmed 's dead , 's alive , n't know tried call girlfriend basically come mamma says , listen let 's go upstairs , least get mattress something n't know long 'll maybe n't burn everything n't get , women feeling , want get something homes , maybe everything taken \? tell mamma , mamma , need \? hell ! 're alive , forget rest , ! says , , let 's go get least something maybe 'll leave , spend night someone else 's mamma went upstairs , little boy , son alik , standing lookout lie standing see coming managed run grab something one time shouts , come back , 're coming ! n't enough time get lot , one apartment , blanket another mamma got someone managed grab old things , ones never wore , hall someone took father 's old neighbor , wife , mamma papa marina went condition leave neither lyuda sat ran closed door hear mob way toward place upstairs , 're dragging something going toward building , maybe school , unfinished building , people said going toward basement unfinished building , could gradually carry everything things less calmed tried call boss later noise third floor , one bedroom apartment , woman lives one bedroom place second floor , 's old woman , retired n't home , time usually country , married daughter , grandson army rarely town gets retirement money apartment essentially vacant started pounding door broke two three beds , something like , 's 60 70 year old woman really even live probably pots , couple metal bed frames , television grandson came bought television started wrecking everything started getting sick think , god , going around \? end \? turned lights sat turns people n't afraid , ones knew going , knew turn lights n't know , n't come knew well captain went closed door , sat apartment last name 's , retired , works fire station plant went stood door tell , comrade captain , n't worry , wo n't harm , 're one us went upstairs , say , n't taking anything apartment \? says , n't need anything women standing yard basement , full water women standing yard saw guys , left everything stole first floor ran upstairs women threw everything time basement , save property things left dirty pillows , two three things rug guy came downstairs , really mad , says , 's rug \? put right ! tell , guy came took went toward school ran direction oh ! forgot important point igor picked arms , women standing saw everything going n't tell long time wife military man , n't want kill spirit , already dead enough later told , murdered uncle third entryway one , , apparently young man , said , 's girl \? became woman tells , came n't know say think something \? someone carried \? would whole house find whole family woman says , came went basement , basement full water whole mob basement look corpse took water , water standing years , soot , fuel oil climbed get one said , 's much water , probably walked walked passed died met death basement 's , leave , problem ! n't know , told , felt worse two times worse lot worse ! n't want pound flat , something awful awaiting course n't want live sumgait longer really n't want go back apartment moved , went started quiver shake , started remembering although neighbors , cheap people sat apartments n't help us time like think could helped ! n't think obligated , could helped us ! one woman able stop whole brutal crowd means could , would enough foe one man women say , think 're \? 's ! would done 60 apartments building one person said ! lying ground people standing balconies n't hear anyone 's voice , one said , leave alone mamma even told one neighbor women azerbaijani woman place would dropped bomb would killed even one armenian would stood one true , say neighbor fourth entryway , old sick woman tried stop pogrom azerbaijanis custom woman takes scarf throws ground , men supposed stop immediately old woman fourth entryway , scarf ground , pushed side , said , want go living , 'll disappear apartment left trick n't work even neighbors helped us move told , ok , fine , calm , forget happened said 'd forget told right happened daughter n't effect , would forget everything , imagine happened sister one anything anything april 25 , 1988 yerevan reference 1 sumgait tragedy pogroms armenians soviet azerbaijan , volume , eyewitness accounts , edited samuel shahmuradian , forward yelena bonner , 1990 , published aristide caratzas , ny , pages 93 109 david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org explain turkish troops p center regional studies armenian border , ca n't p box 382761 even explain 1915 \? cambridge , 02238 turkish mp , march 1992
amehdi src honeywell com \( hossien amehdi \) subject go hezbollah ! ! nntp posting host src honeywell com organization honeywell systems research center lines 25 article cjo news cso uiuc edu eshneken ux4 cso uiuc edu \( edward shnekendorf \) writes amehdi src honeywell com \( hossien amehdi \) writes know israelis f16 \( thanks general dynamics \) fly high sky bomb hell village lebanon , civilians including babies getting killed , plain murder \? arabs would n't position guerilla bases refugee camps , artillery batteries atop apartment buildings , munitions dumps hospitals , maybe civilians would n't get killed kinda like saddam hussein putting civilians military bunker ed arabs since replying article assuming arab well , i'm arab , think brain full shit really believe said bombardment civilian none civilian areas lebanon israel consistent policy intimidation policy practiced called democracy middle east ! merley pointing side also suffering like said , i'm arab , say lebanese , bet would defende homeland invader means
eshneken ux4 cso uiuc edu \( edward shnekendorf \) subject go hezbollah ! ! organization university illinois urbana lines 44 amehdi src honeywell com \( hossien amehdi \) writes article cjo news cso uiuc edu eshneken ux4 cso uiuc edu \( edward shnekendorf \) writes amehdi src honeywell com \( hossien amehdi \) writes know israelis f16 \( thanks general dynamics \) fly high sky bomb hell village lebanon , civilians including babies getting killed , plain murder \? arabs would n't position guerilla bases refugee camps , artillery batteries atop apartment buildings , munitions dumps hospitals , maybe civilians would n't get killed kinda like saddam hussein putting civilians military bunker ed arabs since replying article assuming arab well , i'm arab , think brain full shit really believe said bombardment civilian none civilian areas lebanon israel consistent policy intimidation policy practiced called democracy middle east ! hell know israeli policy \? gives fiat look minds israeli generals \? published somewhere \? information , actions taken arabs , specifically plo , uncommon lebanon campaign 1982 brain full shit \? least n't look minds others make israeli policy ! merley pointing side also suffering like said , i'm arab , say lebanese , bet would defende homeland invader means yeah , yeah , yeah suffer 's bad civilians get killed blame arab leaders put positions danger blame israelis like palestinians send children throw rocks armed israeli soldiers irresponsible parents ! golda meir said , peace come arabs start loving children hate jews ed
anwar cs cmu edu \( anwar mohammed \) subject lawsuit adl nntp posting host gs135 sp cs cmu edu organization school computer science , carnegie mellon lines 142 looks like yigal busy rtw 04 14 jewish group sued passing official information adrian san francisco , april 14 , reuter nineteen people , including son former israeli defence minister moshe arens , sued anti defamation league \( adl \) wednesday , accusing jewish group disclosing confidential official information richard , director san francisco branch adl , art dealer roy bullock former policeman tom gerard also named defendants suit , filed san francisco county superior court 19 accuse adl , group dedicated fighting anti semitism , defendants secretly gathering information , including data state federal agencies suit alleges disclosed information others , including governments israel south africa , alleges massive spying operation action class action suit filed behalf 12 , 000 anti apartheid activists opponents israeli policies plaintiffs believe adl , bullock gerard gathered information representatives adl san francisco immediately available comment wednesday civil suit first legal action arising allegations gerard , former inspector san francisco police intelligence unit , passed confidential police files california political activists spy ring fbi san francisco police investigating adl , bullock gerard affair last week searched adl 's offices san francisco los angeles suit alleges invasion privacy civil code california , prohibits publication information obtained official sources seeks exemplary damages least 2 , 500 per person well damages lawyer pete , former representing plaintiffs , said 19 plaintiffs included arab americans jews wife helen , also information gathered one plaintiffs yigal arens , research scientist university southern california son former israeli defence minister arens told san francisco examiner seen file adl kept 1980s , presumably criticism treatment palestinians position israeli occupied territories according court documents released last week , bullock gerard kept information thousands california political activists documents , police investigator said believed adl paid bullock many years provide information league bullock received confidential information authorities criminal charges yet filed case adl , bullock gerard denied wrongdoing reuter ac kg cm 04 14 adl lawsuit copyright , 1993 associated press rights reserved associated press writer san francisco \( ap \) arab americans critics israel sued anti defamation league wednesday , saying invaded privacy illegally gathering information nationwide spy network adl , national group dedicated fighting anti semitism , intended use data discredit political views , according class action lawsuit filed san francisco superior court none us guilty racism nazism anti semitism hate crimes , adl claims protect none us violent criminal way , said carol el , education consultant develops programs arab culture 19 plaintiffs include yigal arens , son former israel defense minister moshe arens younger arens , research scientist university southern california , said adl kept file 1980s presumably criticized israel 's treatment palestinians adl believes anyone arab american speaks politically israel least closet anti semite , arens said adl denied wrongdoing , could n't comment lawsuit n't reviewed , said spokesman adl 's new york headquarters fbi local police prosecutors investigating allegations adl spied thousands individuals hundreds groups , including white anti semitic organizations , arab americans , greenpeace , national association advancement colored people san francisco public television station information allegedly came confidential police government records , according court documents filed probe civil lawsuit charges filed criminal investigation lawsuit accuses adl violating california 's privacy law , forbids intentional disclosure personal information otherwise public state federal records lawsuit claims adl disclosed information persons entities compelling need receive n't elaborate defendants include richard , director adl 's office san francisco immediately return phone call seeking comment defendants san francisco art dealer roy bullock , alleged adl informant past four decades , former police officer tom gerard gerard allegedly tapped law enforcement government computers passed information bullock gerard , retired police force , moved philippines bullock 's lawyer , richard , said could comment lawsuit yet studied 04 14 1956 adl sued allegedly spying u residents san francisco \( upi \) group california residents filed suit wednesday charging anti defamation league brith violating privacy spying israeli south african governments class action suit , filed san francisco superior court , charges adl leadership local police official obtain information opponents israeli policies towards occupied territories south africa 's apartheid policy adl refused comment suit suit also took aim two top local adl officials retired san police officer tom gerard , claiming violated privacy guarantees state constitution violated state confidentiality laws according suit , gerard helped adl obtain access confidential files law enforcement government computers information files passed foreign governments , suit charges whole concept organized collection information based political viewpoints using government agencies source information absolutely repugnant , said former rep pete , representing plaintiffs adl 's information gathering network revealed publicly last week san francisco district attorney 's office released documents indicating group spied 12 , 000 people 500 political ethnic groups 30 years understanding \( adl \) consider activity sense opposed israel israeli action part investigate , said arens , research scientist university southern california adl believes anyone arab american speaks politically israel least closet anti semite fbi district attorney 's office investigating operation four months 19 plaintiffs case include arens , son former israeli defense minister moshe arens press release , plaintiffs said alleged spying damaged psychologically economically accused adl trying interfere freedom speech
astein nysernet org \( alan stein \) subject water brain \( israeli expansion lust \) organization nysernet , inc lines 4 guess hasan finally revealed source claim israel diverted water lebanon imagination alan h stein astein israel nysernet org
x mailer tmail version 1 15r c sessions dcs witsend tnet com organization nobody really subject rules engagement \( 18 israelis murdered march distribution world lines 77 1993apr8 thunder mcrcim mcgill edu , hasan mcrcim mcgill edu wrote article 1993apr8 frej teknikum uu se , flax frej teknikum uu se \( jonas flygare \) writes article 1993apr6 6425 thunder mcrcim mcgill edu , hasan mcrcim mcgill edu writes article flax frej teknikum uu se , flax frej teknikum uu se \( jonas flygare \) writes first , statement doesnot say existence israeli citizens wb revoke right life says israeli occupation wb revoke right life citizens basically right military men clearly , occupation undeclared war war , attacks military targets fully legitimate 'd like tell , words military , wrt israel uniform , \? duty , duty \? soldier , \? \( , since 's compulsory one might regard israeli legit target using definition \) uniform \? doesnot make difference person army duty , duty \? doesnot matter army man duty vacation week soldier , \? sure meant military men trying get clear , please bear far tell , 're proposing following rules engagement israel palestinean resistance please feel revise preliminary draft necessary 1 \) israeli military personnel fair game time , uniform , duty practice , since male female israeli military age \( 18 \? \) may duty military , young children acceptable targets since existence israel constitutes indication hostile intent , provocation required 2 \) avoid violations rights non palestineans , israeli forces must engage palestineans without positive identification military personnel , clear indication aggressive intent , clear field fire \) positive identification may assured either checking palestinean military uniform , posession exclusively military \( ie , mig 29 aircraft \) , self identification \( either verbal documentary \) note dual use military civilian weaponry hand grenades , ak 47 rifles , rpg launchers constitute positive military identification require closer inspection document checks b \) aggressive intent \( distinct merely intent , normal condition \) may assured less three rounds incoming fire separated intervals less ten seconds rounds note single burst automatic weapon fire one round , rocket fire one source noted , dual use weaponry may assumed originate military personnel , thus justify armed response c \) clear field fire guaranteed making positive military identification personnel target area weapons used note aggressive intent need proven possible targets thus , iaf aircraft attacked sam crew necessary check papers crew member long none obviously civilians \( indicated , instance , posession civilian weaponry stones , axes , molotov \) since often difficult iaf elements land make necessary checks , ground forces first screen prospective strike areas fire acm purposes , pass within 5 meters usually sufficient purpose , may repeated necessary c sessions speaking note new network address dcs witsend tnet com author \( everything else ! \) tmail \( dos mail news shell \)
ayr1 cunixa cc columbia edu \( amir rosenblatt \) subject israeli expansion lust nntp posting host cunixa cc columbia edu reply ayr1 cunixa cc columbia edu \( amir rosenblatt \) organization columbia university lines 57 article spam maths adelaide edu au jaskew spam maths adelaide edu au \( joseph askew \) writes article 1993apr13 das harvard edu adam endor uucp \( adam shostack \) writes article 1993apr12 1370 bnr ca zbib bnr ca writes imho , really matter started individual battle within arabs isreal war context real question started war anyone doubts creation israel arab land \? huh \? war started several armies invaded israel , drive jews sea jews wanted live peace , arabs stayed israel granted citizenship depends entirely define actual fighting largely predates arab invasions deir yassin happened well arab invasion said elsewhere lt col said forces fighting well arabs invaded months jews wanting live peace entirely arguable think easy enough show labour party leadership intention arabs n't mean expelled \? even granted citizenship expelled fighting stopped anyway joseph askew define war \? constant attacks count acts war , jews \? january , 1948 arab liberation army attacks 1000 men attack , 14 miles south jerusalem , cutting supply lines attacks \( western galilee \) kibbutz mid march , jewish settlements negev cut land links rest jewish population group , near hebron , cut , 42 members convoy trying supply slaughtered , cutting jerusalem seige , cut supply route tel aviv \( bombed supply trucks left side road day memoriam \) time , 1200 jews killed course , n't war , since 's arabs attacking like last week fatah launched katyusha rockets northern israel uprising end war begin \? still plo brings tanks \? joseph askew , gauche proud autumn stillness , see pleiades , jaskew spam maths adelaide edu remote thorny deserts , fell grief disclaimer \? sue , see care north tents , sky must end somwhere , actually , rather like brenda beyond pale , river murmurs amir
avi duteinh et tudelft nl \( avi cohen stuart \) subject go hezbollah ! ! originator avi duteinh et tudelft nl nntp posting host duteinh et tudelft nl organization delft university technology , dept electrical engineering lines 35 article 1993apr15 src honeywell com , amehdi src honeywell com \( hossien amehdi \) article cjo news cso uiuc edu eshneken ux4 cso uiuc edu \( edward shnekendorf \) writes amehdi src honeywell com \( hossien amehdi \) writes know israelis f16 \( thanks general dynamics \) fly high sky bomb hell village lebanon , civilians including babies getting killed , plain murder \? arabs would n't position guerilla bases refugee camps , artillery batteries atop apartment buildings , munitions dumps hospitals , maybe civilians would n't get killed kinda like saddam hussein putting civilians military bunker ed arabs since replying article assuming arab well , i'm arab , think brain full shit really believe said bombardment civilian none civilian areas lebanon israel consistent policy intimidation policy practiced called democracy middle east ! merley pointing side also suffering like said , i'm arab , say lebanese , bet would defende homeland invader means tell , would also fight syrians lebanon \? oh , course would brothers would tell invited avi
ayr1 cunixa cc columbia edu \( amir rosenblatt \) subject go hezbollah ! ! nntp posting host cunixa cc columbia edu reply ayr1 cunixa cc columbia edu \( amir rosenblatt \) organization columbia university lines 50 article 1993apr14 ncsu edu hernlem chess ncsu edu \( brad hernlem \) writes lebanese resistance forces detonated bomb israeli occupation patrol lebanese territory two days ago three soldiers killed two wounded retaliation , israeli israeli backed forces wounded 8 civilians bombarding several lebanese villages ironically , israeli government justifies occupation lebanon claiming necessary prevent bombardments israeli villages ! ! congratulations brave men lebanese resistance ! every israeli son place grave underlining moral bankruptcy israel 's occupation drawing attention israeli government 's policy reckless disregard civilian life brad hernlem \( hernlem chess ncsu edu \) ahhh , course israeli morality pales face charming events like string plo run mid 80 's \( remember jokes \? \) , forget however many airline bombings committed , mention bombings streets israel \( 's gotten point children told go near bags containers whose origins n't know , could bombs \) , last weeks katyusha rocket attack northern israel fatah , wonderful mainstream moderates israel attempting negotiate let 's forget fact palestinians killed palestinians israelis ahh yes , charming humanitarian death squads 've actually seen videotape interrogation \( documentary deadly currents neutral balanced seriously \) rather inquisition esque essentially , prove loyalty cause whichever group , turn someone else , else face death one many fun filled ways death squads love much , , acid , pouring melted plastic face party , ' course , always favorite catch photos washington post back execution collaborator \? 3 photos 1 \) one palestinian leading another gunpoint 2 \) collaborator knees , gun pointed temple 3 \) executioner standing corpse collaborator shouting happens collaborators wonderful justice system , lots regard human rights remember black september \? ok , tried take jordan , big deal i'm rambling , getting i'm saying \? amir
subject enough freeman bashing ! free man propaganda machine blood greetings israel mafifi eis calstate edu \( marc afifi \) organization calif state univ electronic information services lines 16 pgf5 cunixb cc columbia edu \( peter garfiel freeman \) writes peter , believe succinct post date since nothing say , say nothing ! 's brilliant think \? marc people narrow minded see crack door eyes opinions employer opinions
subject deriving pleasure death mafifi eis calstate edu \( marc afifi \) organization calif state univ electronic information services lines 30 brad hernlem writes congratulations brave men lebanese resistance ! every israeli son place grave underlining moral bankruptcy israel 's occupation drawing attention israeli government 's policy reckless disregard civilian life brad hernlem \( hernlem chess ncsu edu \) mark ira kaufman responds delight death human beings says anything could say mark , one millions americans cheering slaughter iraqi civilians us forces 1991 \? comment could also apply \( way , applaud killing human , including prisoners sentenced death illustrious justice department \) peace marc people narrow minded see crack door eyes opinions employer opinions
subject go hezbollah ! ! mafifi eis calstate edu \( marc afifi \) organization calif state univ electronic information services lines 43 stssdxb st unocal com \( dorin baru \) writes even , one sided \( jewish israeli \) postings \( certainly disagree \) , openly back plain murder talking bunch lebanese farmers detonate bombs work , organized entity lebanese well trained mercenaries \? know , curious guess also back killings hundreds marines beirut , right \? kind movement killed jewish munich 1972 \? liked , n't \? posted garbage , least seem consistent dorin dorin , let 's forget soldiers killed murdered distinction trivial murder happens innocent people , people whose line work kill killed happened soldiers , line duty , killed opposition resistance different terrorism certainly athletes munich victims terrorists \( though might call freedom fighters \) deaths cannot compared soldiers killed resistance fighters n't forget french resistance nazi occupying forces eventually succeeded driving hostile occupiers wwii diplomacy worked israel lebanese people tired occupied ! turning option see viable \( n't forget worked driving us \) marc people narrow minded see crack door eyes opinions employer opinions
stssdxb st unocal com \( dorin baru \) subject go hezbollah ! organization unocal corporation lines 68 hernlem chess ncsu edu \( brad hernlem \) writes thought would make clear , case familiar past postings subject condone attacks civilians hezbollah lebanese resistance fighters skilled precision bombing sla israeli targets find methods far restrained responsible israeli method shelling bombing villages hope hezbollah member killed along civilians murdered consider killing combatants murder soldiers trained die country three idf soldiers duty day men need died government kept israeli soil israeli civilian , opinion \? , condone bombing villages , kind villages claim villages civilians , claim camps filled terrorists claim israelis shell villages finding terrorist kill one , fine , , bad , civilians die , right \? sure somebody wrote , saddam hussein problems using civilians disgusting manner also claimed let ask , n't least slight chance \( , question general , insult \) similar type propaganda respect civilians southern lebanon \? , lot people post consider kind sea define israeli soil \? say , clearly recognize state israel , condone killing israelis anywhere dorin , aware idf sent helicopters gun boats coast lebanon day palestinian refugee north beirut perhaps ask qualifies person murder \? know action describe kill civilians \( doubt \) , certainly condone civilians killed , condone palestinian \? children may grow terrorists \? female may give birth little terrorists \? brad hernlem \( hernlem chess ncsu edu \) mr hernlem , , , showing huge satisfaction 3 israelis \( human beings standards , n't know standards \) killed ask questions , problem answering \( question , \) , nobody qualified candidate murder , nothing justifies murder feeling may able make similar statements , maybe eliminating israelis , jews , \? wrong \? tell , also condone saddam 's israeli , let 's say , tel aviv \? understand , lot palestineans show \? qualify freedom fighting \? , may wrong , jewish controlled media distorted information , ignorant victim media , like us dorin
amehdi src honeywell com \( hossien amehdi \) subject go hezbollah ! ! nntp posting host src honeywell com organization honeywell systems research center lines 26 article news cso uiuc edu eshneken ux4 cso uiuc edu \( edward shnekendorf \) writes hell know israeli policy \? gives fiat look minds israeli generals \? published somewhere \? information , actions taken arabs , specifically plo , uncommon lebanon campaign 1982 brain full shit \? least n't look minds others make israeli policy ! deleted business reading minds , however case would necessary israelis top leaders past present , always come across arrogant tough talks trying intimidate arabs way see , israelis arabs able achieve peace almost 50 years fighting following two major reasons 1 \) arab governments really representative people , currently leaders stupid , independent , dictators 2 \) israeli government arrogant none comprising
hm cs brown edu \( harry mamaysky \) subject heil hernlem reply hernlem chess ncsu edu 's message wed , 14 apr 1993 12 58 13 gmt organization dept computer science , brown university lines 24 article 1993apr14 ncsu edu hernlem chess ncsu edu \( brad hernlem \) writes lebanese resistance forces detonated bomb israeli occupation patrol lebanese territory two days ago three soldiers killed two wounded retaliation , israeli israeli backed forces wounded 8 civilians bombarding several lebanese villages ironically , israeli government justifies occupation lebanon claiming necessary prevent bombardments israeli villages ! ! congratulations brave men lebanese resistance ! every israeli son place grave underlining moral bankruptcy israel 's occupation drawing attention israeli government 's policy reckless disregard civilian life brad hernlem \( hernlem chess ncsu edu \) nice three people murdered , hear deaths middle east , jewish arab deaths , feel sadness , hope soon stops apparently , view point acceptable people like hernlem , disgust harry
mau herky cs uiowa edu \( mau napoleon \) subject turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece \( armenia azeris \) nntp posting host herky cs uiowa edu organization university iowa , iowa city , ia , usa lines 63 article 1993apr15 iastate edu , tankut iastate edu \( sabri atan \) well , panos , mr tamamidis \? , way put turks bear responsibility things happening today hard believe somebody trying objective comes conflicts like countries cannot blame one side , always bad guys sides anatolia ww1 anyway \? think right \? couple millions greeks living asia minor 1923 someone protect us \? \? saying conflicts started one side aggressive ither always suffering sad \( \) still trying compromise remember action turkish government removing visa requirement greeks come turkey thought positive attempt make relations better compromise , invasion cyprus , involment turkey greek politics , refusal turkey accept 12 miles territorial waters stated international law , properties greeks konstantinople , ownership islands greek lake , sorry , aegean things compromise greeks mentioned would n't talk educated people never met know ! bad person turkey politics business , business turks comes individuals hatred \? person supports policies turkish goverment directly bad person nationality makes bad , support actions goverment make bad people hate supporter policies turkish goverment must pay price makes think kind brainwashing going greece would educated person treat every person nation way \? tell history books things learn greek turkish encounters schooling take easy ! tankut atan tankut iastate edu achtung , baby ! need brainwashing turn people turks talk greeks , arabs , slavs , kurds people luck turkish occupation talk murders , rapes , distruction learn turks history books , learn people experienced first hand turkish friendliness napoleon
stssdxb st unocal com \( dorin baru \) subject reasons go hezbollah ! ! organization unocal corporation lines 35 hossien amehdi writes business reading minds , however case would necessary israelis top leaders past present , always come across arrogant tough talks trying intimidate arabs way see , israelis arabs able achieve peace almost 50 years fighting following two major reasons 1 \) arab governments really representative people , currently leaders stupid , independent , dictators 2 \) israeli government arrogant none comprising 's relevant whether agree , reasonable thought say appreciate point however , would make 2 remarks forgot hate , government level 's governments , talk arrogance , adults , n't \? listen tough talk american politicians \? switch channel \? would rather dummy bomb ready blow seat dorin
unix amherst edu \( daniel \) subject enough freeman bashing ! free man propaganda machine blood greetings israel nntp posting host amhux3 amherst edu organization amherst college x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl7 lines 47 marc afifi \( mafifi eis calstate edu \) wrote pgf5 cunixb cc columbia edu \( peter garfiel freeman \) writes peter , believe succinct post date since nothing say , say nothing ! 's brilliant think \? marc people narrow minded see crack door eyes opinions employer opinions open letter marc afifi dear marc , believe wrong mr freeman written style raises level posts board n't seem get , believe reflection abilities posts contain substance defends positions well said , would like ask general people board realize n't agree substance posts , respond substance \( lack \) posts rather attack author posts one resort attacking poster rather written , one see person ability make coherent argument concerning post peace , danny
bob1 cos com \( bob blackshaw \) subject mossad unchecked girls faint masse egypt organization corporation open systems distribution world lines 31 1993apr13 thunder mcrcim mcgill edu hasan mcrcim mcgill edu writes article eldar sfu ca , eldar fraser sfu ca \( danny eldar \) writes heard radio vancouver , bc girls fainting masse egypt nobody knows , movement started egypt spread throught egypt think mossad , obvious involvement wtc bombing , tries reestablish reputation better way making egyptian girls go maybe hassan share light happy 's second positive danny hasan one born quebec worked montreal , feel must defend reputation mcgill university fine , old , institution higher learning thus , assume graduate student left terminal line getting access reb
wiscon weizmann ac il ! jhsegal subject many israeli soldiers take kill 5 yr old child \? jhsegal wiscon weizmann ac il \( segal \) organization weizmann institute science , computation center lines 130 well , tried get involved never ending talk , , man , really got hot bullshit article 1993apr13 701 bernina ethz ch nadeem p ethz ch writes abu ahmed \( cleveland freenet edu \) wrote reply hm cs brown edu 's message zbib bnr ca \( sam zbib \) writes steel hal gnu ai mit edu \( nick steel \) writes q many occupying israeli soldiers \( terrorists \) take kill 5 year old native child \? four two fasten arms , one shoots face , one writes false report making stupid idiot jokes bring anything \( mentioning peace agreement \) also know several tens jokes arabs \( palestinians \) post usenet \( anyway , newsgroup \) , since n't think achieve target making parts , target target well tells lot nick steel provide documentation alleged incident \? really think talking something realistic \? harry must kidding , single incident become daily life practice mean killing children armed soldiers yeah , well , sometimes , cowards put children wives front line , enemy cannot anything , well , maybe cases , better thing \( save life \) shooting parents want children alive , think would better get throw stones molotov , come kill , keep children houses objecting number occupying israeli soldiers \( terrorists \) way , look dictionary word terrorism ! says \( nu \) use threats violence , violence esp political purposes sounds like guys assure worse yeah \? well , guess , know example 11 children killed month two military similar incident one 25 feb \( 4 \) thee military truck purpose hit passenger know purpose \? personally , n't hear case , although n't deny anybody , besides person , say purpose \? car victims 5 year girl sail 2 weeks old \( 23 \) yeah , sure truck driver looked car zionist equipment detecting palestinian children , thought hey 5 year 2 weeks girls car wo n't make accident kill enemy \? maximum die crash care \? actually , remember correctly , reported even camera time israeli invasion lebanon , began , cnn caught regular uniformed israeli soldiers breaking arms arab youngsters professional brutal manner , \( someone please give full details remember \) one well , 3 years ago , intifada \( fact ca n't remember time much care \) think correct agree breaking arms saw film , , unlike usa , entirely long ago \( talk show \) end arm broken guys got walked used arms good guy interviewed said terrorist whatever refused take orders , face truth exist statement cannot tell , n't guy prison , makes good scene transmitted west usa caused uproar one factors significantly changed israeli army 's role mid east , n't israeli army still important army east still human army \( much army human \) american claim opposite , remember cnn broadcasting american beat boy cruel see wo n't say american army cruel proof ! obvious systematic policy israelis must occurring massive scale behind scenes kind proof ! obvious \? \? say behind scenes , know \? nadeem wanted show much one say , without knowing anything says , living life far away place talks segal vm cms weizmann weizmann ac il unix jhsegal wiscon weizmann ac il
ptg2351 uxa cso uiuc edu \( panos tamamidis \) subject turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece \( armenia azeris \) article news organization university illinois urbana lines 58 auvm american edu writes mr tamamidis claims , suggest kind individuals trying make points human rights , , unequal treatment turkish minority greece want world know bad treat people deny anything say make write things saw eyes prove prejudice saying free insurance , school etc greeks give things turkish minority everybody rights get words even discriminate people think giving big favor people giving thing reality get nothing thing favor simply stated treated second class citizens point fail see words show discrimination mean get nothing \? , example , insurance , food , tuition nothing \? know practices conducted government greece , suggest investigate see facts , discuss basic human rights like fredom religion , fredom press turkish minority , ethnic cleansing turks greece , fredom right property without government intervention , fredom right vote choose community leaders , greek government encourages people destroy religious places , houses , farms , schools turkish minority forcing go turkey without anything i'm sorry , cannot see logical order argument conclude writing , let point greeks treated turkey consider greek minority , instead consider part society part exactly one \? people cannot even sell property want leave turkey patriarch could get buildings decades needed special agreement two talk part society \? size greek community reduced 1 , 500 old people priests \? difference among people turkey yeah , bet big businesses belong greeks turkey proud unlike greece tries destroy turkish minority , encourage minorities turkey part turkish society far reality aykut atakan panos tamamidis
dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) subject turkish government agents usenet lie teeth ! article urartu 1993apr15 organization p center regional studies lines 63 revision history zuma uucp posted turkish government agents guise sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) lie response article 1993apr13 urartu sdpa org hla urartu sdpa org \( orhan gunduz blown gunduz receives ultimatum either \( gives honorary position executed \( refuses responsibility claimed jcag sdpa \( may 4 , 1982 cambridge , massachusetts \( orhan gunduz , turkish honorary consul boston , would bow \( armenian terrorist ultimatum give title \( honorary consul attacked murdered cold blood \( president reagan orders avail eye \( witness gave description murderer shot \( survives falls silent one revolting triumphs \( senseless , mindless history armenian terrorism murder \( brings absolutely nothing except ego boost murderer \( within armenian terrorist , already wallowing \( self satisfaction \( \( involved murder sarik ariyak \? \( december 17 , 1980 sydney \( two nazi armenians massacre sarik ariyak bodyguard , engin \( sever jcag sdpa claim responsibility mr turkish governmental agent prove sdpa even existed 1980 1982 ! go ahead , provide us newspaper accounts assassinations show us letters sdpa ! turkish government good text references , let 's see good thay adding text verifiable newspaper accounts ! turkish government ca n't support anti armenian claims garbage ! government continues make false libelous charges recourse left made fools attempt systematic campaign denying covering turkish genocide armenians like dog barking moving bus , , jumps , , bus stops , point walks away ! posting ! turkish agents level ridiculous charges , brought answer , silent , like dog bus stops ! turkish government feels funnel state ultra nationalism existing turkey today onto usenet convince people via revisionist , myopic , incidental view place world resulting inability address armenian greek refutations write history refer terrorist , worse , claim part record took responsibility murder 2 people ! pack raging fools , blinded anti armenian fascism 's bad socialization policies republic turkey requires always find non turks de ! downfall ! david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org explain turkish troops p center regional studies armenian border , ca n't p box 382761 even explain 1915 \? cambridge , 02238 turkish mp , march 1992
mucit cs rochester edu \( bulent murtezaoglu \) subject turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece \( armenia azeris \) article vein mucit 1993apr14 usage csd unsw oz au 93104 auvm american edu hiv news cso uiuc edu 1993apr14 iastate edu news cso uiuc edu 1993apr15 iastate edu organization computer science department , university rochester lines 27 reply ptg2351 uxa cso uiuc edu 's message thu , 15 apr 1993 19 16 16 gmt nntp posting host vein cs rochester edu article news cso uiuc edu ptg2351 uxa cso uiuc edu \( panos tamamidis \) writes stuff deleted saying conflicts started one side aggressive ither always suffering sad \( \) still trying compromise remember action turkish government removing visa requirement greeks come turkey thought positive attempt make relations better thought smart move receive money greek tourists bet week 200 , 000 tourists greece turkey one leave least 1 , 000 go figure means economy kept visa requirement , many greeks would bother visit turkey \? smart indeed 're saying true , greeks visit happy , turkish merchants happy harmed \? one smart move , also good move adds happiness 200 000 greeks per week however many turkish merchants interact one simple move paperwork arena lotsa happy people nationalities observation cheers , bm stuff deleted
subject many israeli soldiers take kill 5 yr old child \? jhsegal wiscon weizmann ac il \( segal \) organization weizmann institute science , computation center lines 16 article 222 cs huji ac il cs huji ac il \( \) writes q many nick steel 's take twist truth around \? one , thank god 's one absolutely true ! lots ! segal vm cms weizmann weizmann ac il unix jhsegal wiscon weizmann ac il
cgl ucsf edu \( j \) subject pr campaign iran \( pbs frontline \) organization computer graphics laboratory , ucsf lines 51 originator socrates ucsf edu number articles pbs frontline program iranian bomb 0 02 related subjects one curious know real reasons behind related public relations campaign iran recent months include 1 \) attempts iran bombing new york trade center despite great efforts direction succeeded , however , indirectly created impression iran behind rise fundamentalist islamic movements thus indirectly implicated matter 2 \) public statements secretary state official sources regarding iran terrorist outlaw state 3 \) finally recent broadcast frontline program suspect pr campaign iran continue perhaps intensify increased pressure iran \? number factors may behind include 1 \) rise islamic movements north africa radical hamas movement israeli occupied territories movement basically anti western necessarily fueled iran cause accelerated pace movement probably gulf war sought return colonial throne name democracy freedom also , obvious support algerian military coup democratically elected algerian islamic front clearly exposed democracy myth cause may daily broadcast news slaughter bosnian moslems 2 \) possible future implications movement saudi arabia us client states endangerment cheap oil sources region 3 \) need create enemy excuse huge defense expenditures become necessary demise union recent pr campaign iran , however , seems directed israel rather washington fundamental conflict interest iran us opinion , interest countries affect normal friendly relations may effect rise radical movements within islamic world iran
aa229 freenet carleton ca \( steve birnbaum \) subject israeli expansion lust reply aa229 freenet carleton ca \( steve birnbaum \) organization national capital freenet lines 24 previous article , hasan mcrcim mcgill edu \( hasan \) says wars 1948 , 1956 , 1967 , 1968 \( \) , 1978 , 1982 started arabs wars 1948 , 1956 , 1967 , 1978 definitely started arabs war 1982 instigated arabs continually murdered israeli children rocket attacks israel trying stop last heck talking 1968 \( \) \? war 1968 ! steve internet aa229 freenet carleton ca fidonet 1 163 109 18 mossad qube ocunix ca opinions associated anything , including head
aa229 freenet carleton ca \( steve birnbaum \) subject israeli expansion lust reply aa229 freenet carleton ca \( steve birnbaum \) organization national capital freenet lines 24 previous article , zbib bnr ca \( sam zbib \) says imho , really matter started individual battle within arabs isreal war context real question started war anyone doubts creation israel arab land \? hell get calling arab land \? jews living long time jews n't start arriving 1900 , 've living thousands years , except periods expelled always returned home steve internet aa229 freenet carleton ca fidonet 1 163 109 18 mossad qube ocunix ca opinions associated anything , including head
hm cs brown edu \( harry mamaysky \) subject dir yassin \( free man propaganda machine freeman , blood greetings israel \) reply hasan mcrcim mcgill edu 's message tue , 13 apr 93 14 15 18 gmt organization dept computer science , brown university lines 85 article 1993apr13 thunder mcrcim mcgill edu hasan mcrcim mcgill edu writes check begin \( published book \) 'll find accounts massacres including deir , though numbers massacred men , children women greatly minimized per request hasan revolt , menachem begin , dell publishing , ny , 1977 pp 225 227 apart military aspect , moral aspect story dir yassin village , whose name publicized throughout world , sides suffered heavy casualties four killed nearly forty wounded number casualties nearly forty percent total number attackers arab troops suffered casualties three times heavy fighting thus severe yet hostile propaganda , disseminated throughout world , deliberately ignored fact civilian population dir yassin actually given warning us battle began one carrying loud speaker stationed entrance village arabic women , children aged leave houses take shelter slopes hill giving humane warning fighters threw away element complete surprise , thus increased risk ensuing battle substantial number inhabitants obeyed warning leave stone houses perhaps confusion fire enemy murderous number casualties bears eloquent testimony men compelled fight every house overcome enemy used large numbers hand grenades civilians disregarded warnings suffered inevitable casualties education gave soldiers throughout years revolt based observance traditional laws war never broke unless enemy first thus forced us , accordance accepted custom war , apply convinced , , officers men wished avoid single unnecessary casualty dir yassin battle throw stones denunciation dir yassin 1 would well cloak hypocrisy 2 connection capture dir yassin jewish agency found necessary send letter apology abdullah , mr ben gurion , moment great political emotion , called 'the wise ruler seeks good people country ' ruler , ' whose mercenary forces demolished flung bodies heroic defenders birds prey , replied feudal rejected apology replied jews blame believe existence ' throughout arab world world large wave lying propaganda let loose 'jewish attrocities ' enemy propaganda designed name result helped us panic overwhelmed arabs israel village , previously repulsed every attack haganah , evacuated overnight fell without fighting also evacuated two places overlooked main road fall , together capture haganah , made possible keep open road jerusalem rest country , , arabs began flee terror , even clashed jewish forces happened dir yassin , invented dir yassin , helped carve way decisive victories battlefield legend dir yassin helped us particular saving conquest haifa 1 \( footnote revolt , pp 226 7 \) counteract loss dir yassin , village strategic importance , arab headquarters ramallah broadcast crude atrocity story , massacre irgun troops women children village certain jewish officials , fearing irgun men political rivals , seized upon arab propaganda smear irgun eminent rabbi induced irgun time sift truth evil , however , good came arab propaganda spread legend terror amongst arabs arab troops , seized panic mention irgun soldiers legend worth half dozen battalions forces israel yassin lie still propagated jew haters world 2 reference denunciation dir yassin fellow jews
jar2e faraday clas virginia edu \( virginia 's gentleman \) subject israeli press madness organization university virginia lines 8 post form program , user types nationality ethnicity fills certain places story true , condemn 's fabrication , posters horrible morals despised everyone tpm values truth jesse
bc744 cleveland freenet edu \( mark ira kaufman \) subject center israel propaganda organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 67 nntp posting host thor ins cwru edu 'center policy research' writes israeli press hadashot , 14 march 1993 israeli police department announced evening friday , march 12 calling upon jewish israeli citizens gun permits carry times contribute security surroundings considering murders innocent israelis hands arab death merchants , see nothing wrong advice ha'aretz , 15 march 1993 yehoshua matza \( likud \) , chair knesset interior committee , stated intends demand police department make clear public anyone wounds kills non jewish terrorists put trial usual , bias 'center policy research' echoes newsgroup enraged venting spleen , portray going become policy n't say response matza 's suggestion mention whether refering terrorists caught act , could clear cut case self defence would care elaborate , wanted say matter n't give 'center policy research' crap , post biases without trying legitimize pompous name \? ha'aretz , 16 today private security firm units idf southern command begin installation four magnetic gates gaza strip , additional stage upgrading security measures strip gates aid searching non jewish gaza residents leave work israel used reveal presence knives , axes , weapons sharp objects addition gates , operated private civilian company , large quantities magnetic card reading devices brought inspection points , facilitate reading magnetic cards non jewish workers must carry precaution every single thing post israel posted portray israel negatively deliberate omissions integral part 's incidents mention , even stories post fraught omissions , change entire meaning absurdity respectable name cannot hide bias effort portray israel unfavorable light , accomplished nothing , except prove respectable sounding label like center policy research nothing smoke screen someone heavily biased attitude israel need vent 'center policy research' stuff nonsense
hm cs brown edu \( harry mamaysky \) subject israeli press madness reply jar2e faraday clas virginia edu 's message sat , 17 apr 1993 18 16 47 gmt organization dept computer science , brown university lines 12 article murdoch acc virginia edu jar2e faraday clas virginia edu \( virginia 's gentleman \) writes post form program , user types nationality ethnicity fills certain places story true , condemn 's fabrication , posters horrible morals despised everyone tpm values truth jesse agreed harry
terziogl ee rochester edu \( esin terzioglu \) subject armenia says could shoot turkish planes organization univ rochester , college engineering applied science article 1993apr16 195452 urartu sdpa org dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) writes 04 16 93 1045 armenia says could shoot turkish planes let translate everyone else public traslation service gets armenia getting itchy esin
bc744 cleveland freenet edu \( mark ira kaufman \) subject center anti israel propaganda organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 67 nntp posting host thor ins cwru edu 'center policy research' writes israeli press hadashot , 14 march 1993 israeli police department announced evening friday , march 12 calling upon jewish israeli citizens gun permits carry times contribute security surroundings considering murders innocent israelis hands arab death merchants , see nothing wrong advice ha'aretz , 15 march 1993 yehoshua matza \( likud \) , chair knesset interior committee , stated intends demand police department make clear public anyone wounds kills non jewish terrorists put trial usual , bias 'center policy research' echoes newsgroup enraged venting spleen , portray going become policy n't say response matza 's suggestion mention whether refering terrorists caught act , could clear cut case self defence would care elaborate , wanted say matter n't give 'center policy research' crap , post biases without trying legitimize pompous name \? ha'aretz , 16 today private security firm units idf southern command begin installation four magnetic gates gaza strip , additional stage upgrading security measures strip gates aid searching non jewish gaza residents leave work israel used reveal presence knives , axes , weapons sharp objects addition gates , operated private civilian company , large quantities magnetic card reading devices brought inspection points , facilitate reading magnetic cards non jewish workers must carry precaution every single thing post israel posted portray israel negatively deliberate omissions integral part 's incidents mention , even stories post fraught omissions , change entire meaning absurdity respectable name cannot hide bias effort portray israel unfavorable light , accomplished nothing , except prove respectable sounding label like center policy research nothing smoke screen someone heavily biased attitude israel need vent 'center policy research' stuff nonsense
terziogl ee rochester edu \( esin terzioglu \) subject public service translation 2 keywords effective greek armenian postings organization univ rochester , college engineering applied science article 1993apr16 urartu sdpa org dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) writes article hydra gatech edu gt1091a prism gatech edu \( gt1091a gt1091a kaan , timucin \) wrote kaan hell guy david davidian think talks much alter ego ! kaan yo , david would better shut f k \? \? , its' ok ! going \? come get \? maybe maybe working secret turkish service never know kaan n't like attitute full lies shit united states refer freedom speech n't like still called full shit even us \) kaan n't hear saying mess ! ! ask \? going \? going submit bodily harm \? going kill \? going torture \? well , n't worry turks turn terrorist actions like armenians sure killed however , know torture part timucin sounds like tough guy watch kaan see ya hell wrong ! kaan timucin translate lines turkish english embarrassing turkish , n't written first place ! n't kill messenger ! going translate , consistently selectively translate things serve ugly purpose , people get ottoman times messengers usually killed cutting heads sending back country ottoman empire longer exists \( \( darn ! \) esin david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org explain turkish troops p center regional studies armenian border , ca n't p box 382761 even explain 1915 \? cambridge , 02238 turkish mp , march 1992
aa229 freenet carleton ca \( steve birnbaum \) subject many israeli soldiers take kill 5 yr old child \? reply aa229 freenet carleton ca \( steve birnbaum \) organization national capital freenet lines 27 previous article , steel hal gnu ai mit edu \( nick steel \) says q many occupying israeli soldiers \( terrorists \) take kill 5 year old native child \? four two fasten arms , one shoots face , one writes false report newsgroup intelligent discussion want either smarten stop bullshit posting get fuck face net steve internet aa229 freenet carleton ca fidonet 1 163 109 18 mossad qube ocunix ca opinions associated anything , including head
oz ursa sis yorku ca \( \) subject public service translation 2 reply dbd urartu sdpa org 's message fri , 16 apr 1993 04 57 08 gmt organization york u student information systems project lines 54 david posts good translation post suat original post elided kk en translation , public service translation elided love fatherland strongest winds cleansing filth souls think part translation questionable although think original quote plain silly , made sound coming neo nazi youth example , turks talk fatherland filth instead dirt \? translation well known problem 1 one may fudge , care course following equally valid translation \? love one 's country strongest wind cleanse one 's soul see point \? nevertheless , think translate well oz 1 willard van word object mit press , cambridge , mass 1960
tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) subject go hezbollah ! nntp posting host orion oac uci edu organization university california , irvine lines 92 article 1993apr17 ncsu edu hernlem chess ncsu edu \( brad hernlem \) writes article news service uci edu , tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) writes assuming \? also come , brad going get anywhere \( \) discussion , n't help bring elements never addressed , commented way made comment right wrong , civilians used cover , placed israelis guerillas , injured parties continue fight pardon tim , see possible idf fail detect presence responsible planting bomb killed three idf troops later know exact number whereabouts several villages shelled could idf possibly known targetted villages \? see , arbitrary act retaliation repeat statement 1 \) condone indiscriminate israeli acts \( ever , 2 \) villagers know guerillas \( stated earlier \) , expect israelis know \? difficult identify \( guerillas prefer lose general population dressing , acting , etc \) host arab state little nothing try stop attacks side border israel problem , tim , original reason invasion palestinian attacks israel , lebanese attacks agree , lebanon either unwilling unable stop attacks territory israel simply sit quietly accept situation \? israel asked lebanese government control third party state within lebanese territory attacks kept occuring point israel \( state \) right something stop attacks \? never \? major armaments \( allowing people wage civil wars \) removed , weapons needed cross border attacks still remain extent rocket attacks still continue , commando raids require easily concealed weapons refined disregard human life \( others \) attacks also continue yes , afraid say true still justify occupying neighbor 's land israel must resolve disputes native palestinians wants peace attacks also responsibility state allow outside party use territory attacks neighboring state 1 \) angola power , 2 \) south africa refused \( could n't \) stop anti guerillas based sa soil attacking angola , 3 \) south africa refused un troops stationed territory angola , would angola justified entering sa \? , saying angola accept situation , nothing absorb attacks \? bat guano situation call existed 1970s attacks commonplace true lebanese attacking israel 1970s strong lebanese government \( free syrian israeli interference \) believe border could adequately patrolled palestinian heavy weapons past years see significant threat existed refered times palestinian attacks israel lebanese soil , lebanese attacks israel one hopes lebanese government strong enough patrol border reason believe stronger changed plo largely driven lebanon \( lebanese , syria \) far important making easier control future palestinian attacks lebanese soil change brought israeli action plo would never ejected lebanese , arab state un actions please , tim , n't fall trap treating lebanese palestinians part group many think arabs muslims many times seen people support bombing palestinian camps retaliation idf death hands lebanese resistance shelling lebanese villages retaliation palestinian attack fully recognize lebanese want used either side , \( continue \) fundamental issue state cannot control borders make real efforts , expect others hopefully un \( see cowardice regarding bosnia \) weak tim
astein nysernet org \( alan stein \) subject go hezbollah ! organization nysernet , inc lines 21 hernlem chess ncsu edu \( brad hernlem \) writes tell tim , guerillas wrong \? assuming using civilians cover , killing soldiers country \? , 's okay use civilians cover 're attacking soldiers country \( course , many attacking claim n't lebanese , 's country \) got think hmm confusing could perhaps repeat rules explaining exactly permissible use civilians shields \? also please explain conditions permissible soldiers defend also please explain particular rules make okay terrorists launch missiles lebanon israeli civilians , okay israelis try defend missiles alan h stein astein israel nysernet org
backon vms huji ac il subject israeli press madness distribution world organization hebrew university jerusalem lines 165 article igc apc org , center policy research cpr igc apc org writes center policy research cpr subject israeli press madness written 4 34 pm apr 16 , 1993 cpr igc apc org igc mideast forum israeli press madness israeli press paper tel aviv \( tel aviv 's time \) friday local tel aviv 's paper , affiliated date 19 february 1993 journalist guy ehrlich subject interview soldiers served \( cherry \) units , disguise arabs operate within occupied territories excerpts article lot written units disguise arabs , things good bad , falsehoods important problem units hardly dealt everyone serves cherry , time goes one way another insane gee , 'd better tell mental health branch israeli army medical corps ! would without , davidson \? man said , called danny \( full name known editors \) served cherry discharge army works delivery boy pal , called dudu also serving cherry , depart round world tour look different average israeli youngsters freshly discharged service souls , one notice something completely different easy come happened think fellows cherry wound n't easy either yet began talk , nearly impossible make stop talking following article contain horror stories recounted appalling openness \( \) short time ago command veteran team , fellows applied release cherry called soldiers h command soldier talked non stop , common phenomenon cherry sent psychiatrist talk others feel quite insane \? fridays , come home , parents know cannot talked go beach , surf little , calm return keys father 's car must ready advance , go dare talk , whenever n't want talk , grab chair smash instantly know nerve smashing chairs time running away home , car beach become normal \( \) \( \) another friday eating lunch prepared mother sorts took risk sitting next talking told mother event still fresh mind told shot arab , exactly wound looked like went inspect began laugh hysterically wanted cry , dared laugh straight face instead ! told pal made two arabs preparing molotov shot , hitting beautifully , exactly deserved one bullet set molotov cocktail fire , effect arab burning , beautifully delighted see pal fired three bullets , two arab molotov cocktail , third chum hit straight ass felt 'd pulled something next told mother another pal mine split open guts belly another arab us ran toward spot take look reached spot first arab , blood forth body , spits yelled up' dared talk back hebrew ! laughed straight face usually laughing stare something right eyes told 'all right , wait left order take look another wounded arab asked soldier arab could saved , bleeding artery could stopped help stone something else like keep telling mother , details , keeps laughing straight face got angry , felt becoming mad stopped eating , seized plate still , threw head stopped laughing first n't know say \( \) must tell still madness falls upon us frequently went friend practice shooting field appeared right middle field friend shot noticed four deer standing high sigh four \( 4 \) deer tel aviv \? \? well , probably accurate rest fantasy hill us friend aimed one shot enjoyed sight falling rock shot two deer went take look climbed rocks saw young deer , badly wounded bullet , still trying milk already dead mother carefully inspected two paths , covered blood chunks torn flesh two deer hit delighted sight good ! decided kill young deer , spare suffering approached , took revolver shot head several times short distance shoot straight head actually see bullets sinking fifth bullet made brains fall outside onto ground , effect lots blood straight us made us feel cured madness standing soaked blood , felt like beasts prey could n't explain happened us almost tears walking hill , felt whole day badly \( \) always go back places carried assignments see see guy disabled , may rest life , feel got power feel sorts \( \) danny dudu contemplate least moment studying acting dudu willing work security linked occupation danny feels exact opposite n't take advantage skills well \? n't earn 3 000 chopped head would deliver mercenary south africa \? kind job suits perfectly human emotions get reasonable salary problem board plane bosnia order fight israel shahak yisrael shahak crackpot chemist \? figures often see \( jerusalem \) post office really sad figure actually , feel sorry concentration camp holocaust must affected deeply josh backon vms huji ac il
backon vms huji ac il subject israeli press torture distribution world organization hebrew university jerusalem lines 115 article igc apc org , center policy research cpr igc apc org writes center policy research cpr subject israeli press torture written 4 41 pm apr 16 , 1993 cpr igc apc org igc mideast forum israeli press torture israeli press newspaper ma'ariv date 18 december 1992 author avi raz subject torture sigh la , e truth \( lie detection \) event related brain potentials 1991 28 531 547 research reported supported part contract number central intelligence agency preliminary reports presented 1986 , 1988 , 1989 meetings society research happens israeli really think israel needs something primitive torture well something brought russian mathematician military hospital 1979 \( factor analysis multiple unit activity brain \) \? \? \? surely jest israel sics trained dogs arab prisoners way 's commonly done prison farms mississippi alabama , right protest torture israeli security personnel beat arab prisoners way chicago police , right complain since practice physical torture way , kindly refrain using word josh backon vms huji ac il title article moderate physical pressure several times course long hours interrogation room tulkarm prison , says humiliated , beaten tortured , omar jaber heard interrogator , shabak agent , phone wife moments , omar said , felt like , right finished talking , would beat say , 'you listened conversation enjoyed understood really human late october 1992 , 38 days detention tulkarm prison , omar jaber released without charges among jews , among arabs , good people bad people , said release , , tulkarm , interrogations rooms , cannot find even one person say human although left detention installation tulkarm bruised humiliated \( sat home ten days hands shook nerves \) , one may consider omar jaber lucky got , healthy , entire , even ultimately returned normal functioning , small solar heater plant owns contrast , hassan al , example , released seven weeks ago detention tulkarm 33 days shabak wing , cut surroundings n't speak react mustafa , aged 23 , arrested early august brought tulkarm detention installation , left one day later dead recently received especially large number testimonies concerning cruel tortures employed tulkarm detention installation shabak interrogators , noted dr niv gordon , director association israel palestinian physicians human rights \( \) right complain shabak saber makhlouf , 20 year old student fact , extremely fearful describing manner interrogated tulkarm prison , case publication paper would return detention lead renewed mistreatment \( follow description tortures \) omar , tall man , silent want talk , finally said , quietly time later , ashamed , spoke sometimes beats beats 'll kiss hand , hand even hands another interrogator , another , calls room , last interrogator says kissing hand , later want , kiss ass things take place israeli army detention installation , located within military government compound tulkarm \( west bank \) shabak interrogation wing separate kingdom early march idf allowed representatives , israeli information center human rights territories , visit tulkarm prison , denied access interrogation wing interrogation wing shabak property , solely shabak responsibility interrogations performed , said sharon , commander installation , according internal report written member , yuval , following visit major david , governing commander prison system central command , quoted report ethical problem one enter interrogation wing shahak
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject entire muslim population slaughtered armenians reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 31 source men like leonard ramsden hartill bobbs merrill company , indianapolis \( 1926 \) \( 305 pages \) \( memoirs armenian officer participated genocide 2 5 million muslim people \) p 19 \( first paragraph \) tartar section town longer existed , except pile ruins destroyed inhabitants slaughtered fate befell tartar section p 22 \( second paragraph \) many men served russian army , trained soldiers armenians rich possessed arms tartars never received military training poor , possessed arms beyond knives shortly killing tartars village , revolution russia suppressed serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject armenian way slaughtering twelve year old muslim girl reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 41 source world alive , personal story robert dunn crown publishers , inc , new york \( 1952 \) \( memoirs american officer witnessed armenian genocide 2 5 million muslim people \) p 360 length shooting got horse rode toward djul burned still little flame showed way steep tough , dense scrub finally flatter ground came suddenly , , smoldering houses across trampled wheat brothers arms leading animals , several calves lamb p 361 \( fourth paragraph \) corpses came next , first pretty child straight black hair , large eyes looked twelve years old lay stubble meal lay scattered sack 'd toting bayonet gone back , judged , blood around scant breasts one clot , small bullet wound , dress next boy ten less , rawhide jacket knee pants lay face path several huts one arm reached bowl 'd carried , upset upon dough steel neck , spine , , saw led around djul empty living till looked see beside dro 's german speaking colonel said tartars escaped dead serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject cold blooded slaughter muslim women children armenians reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 91 article 1993apr17 news columbia edu cc columbia edu \( charles \) writes hmm maybe 'll go rent midnight express tonight n't seen scene awhile moment well , change fact period 1914 1920 , fascist x soviet armenian government ordered , incited , assisted participated genocide 2 5 million muslim people race , religion national origin \? past turkiye , today azerbaijan , idiotic causes armenians brought havoc neighbors short sighted misplaced nationalistic fervor wrong agenda anachronistic methods armenians continue become pernicious region usual , treated accordingly neighbors nagorno karabag mountainous enclave lies completely within azerbaijan border history whatsoever connected x soviet armenia besides geographical aspect , nagorno karabag historic homeland artistic literary heritage azerbaijan , renders armenian claims , even lunatic still demand 1 x soviet armenian government , heirs armenian dictatorship , recognize turkish genocide 2 x soviet armenia return historic homeland turkish kurdish people 3 x soviet armenian government make material reparations heinous unspeakable crime victims turkish genocide 4 world governments officially recognize turkish genocide turkish territorial rights refuse succumb armenian political pressure awareness turkish people necessity solidarity efforts pursue turkish cause seen victims first genocide 20th century positive step would \? source 'the sunday times , ' 1 march 1992 \( british weekly , written thomas goltz , agdam , azerbaijan \) armenian soldiers massacre hundreds fleeing families violence outer republics former soviet union gained new impetus yesterday cold blooded slaughter hundreds women children war racked nagorno karabakh survivors reported armenian soldiers shot bayoneted 450 azeris , many women children , fleeing attack town hundreds , possibly thousands , missing feared dead attackers killed soldiers volunteers defending women children turned guns terrified refugees survivors later described happened 's real slaughter began , said , one three soldiers survive armenians shot shot came started carving people bayonets knives shooting , shooting , shooting , echoed , arrived agdam women children made way armenian lines said husband , , son law killed front daughter still missing one boy arrived agdam ear sliced survivors said 2000 others , fled separately , still missing terrain many could perish wounds cold late yesterday , 479 deaths registered morgue agdam 's morgue , 29 bodies buried cemetery seven corpses saw awaiting burial , two children three women , one shot chest point blank range agdam hospital scene carnage terror doctors said 140 patients escaped slaughter , bullet injuries deep stab wounds safe agdam friday night rockets fell city population 150 , 000 , destroying several buildings killing one person serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject x soviet armenia denies historical fact turkish genocide reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 61 article panix com panix com \( michael \) writes maybe availability anon servers people beginning speak \? sure hope , unspeakable crimes armenians must armenian invaders burned sacked fatherland urartus , massacred exterminated population presented world left urartus , armenian civilization reliable western historians describe armenians ruthlessly exterminated 2 5 million muslim women , children elderly people eastern anatolia collaborated enemies ottoman empire 1914 1920 unfortunately truth armenians known collaborators nazis world war ii , even today , criminal nazi members asala sdpa arf terrorism triangle preach instigate racism , hatred , violence terrorism among peoples x soviet armenia continues anti turkish policy following ways 1 x soviet armenia denies historical fact turkish genocide order shift international public opinion away political responsibility 2 x soviet armenia , employing asala sdpa arf terrorism revisionism triangle criminal nazi armenians , attempts call question veracity turkish genocide 3 x soviet armenia also implemented state sponsored terrorism asala sdpa arf terrorism revisionism triangle attempt silence turkish people 's vehement demands protests 4 using human , financial , governmental resources , x soviet armenia tools united states attempt silence terrorism , bribery subversive methods , non turkish supporters turkish cause , political , governmental humanitarian using aforementioned methods , x soviet armenian government attempting neutralize international diplomatic community making turkish case contemporary issue yet despite efforts x soviet armenian government terrorist revisionist organizations , last decades , thanks struggle whose closest ones systematically exterminated armenians , international wall silence issue begun collapse , consequently number governments organizations become supportive recognition turkish genocide serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject muslim left alive single one historical armenian barbarism reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 326 article 1993apr10 sol ctr columbia edu halsall murray fordham edu \( paul halsall \) writes simple question serdar \? anytime armenians killed many turks eastern anatolia , come area today full turks muslim kurds full armenians \? suffering severe case myopia \? muslim left alive single one leading first armenian units crossed ottoman border company russian invaders former ottoman parliamentary representative erzurum , , assumed revolutionary name armen another former ottoman , hamparsum , led armenian guerrilla forces turkish villages behind lines nickname , especially ordering turks kurds wherever find whatever circumstances find turkish children also killed form danger armenian nation ' \( hamparsum 1914 \) 1 1 varandian , history dashnaktsutiun , p 85 another former member parliament , , led armenian guerrilla forces areas van , bitlis mush march 1915 , russian forces began move toward van immediately , april 11 , 1915 armenians van began revolt , massacring turks vicinity make possible quick easy conquest russians little wonder czar nicholas ii sent thanks armenian revolutionary committee van april 21 , 1915 , thanking services russia armenian newspaper gochnak , published united states , also proudly reported may 24 , 1915 1 , 500 turks remained van rest slaughtered source hovannisian , richard g armenia road independence , 1918 university california press \( berkeley los angeles \) , 1967 , p 13 addition kars batum oblasts empire increased area transcaucasia 130 , 000 square miles estimated population entire region 1886 4 , 700 , 000 , 940 , 000 \( 20 percent \) armenian , 1 , 200 , 000 \( 25 percent \) georgian , 2 , 220 , 000 \( 45 percent \) moslem latter group , 1 , 140 , 000 tatars paradoxically , barely one third transcaucasia 's armenians lived erevan guberniia , christians constituted majority three seven uezds erevan uezd , administrative center province , 44 , 000 armenians compared 68 , 000 moslems time russian census 1897 , however , armenians established scant majority , 53 percent , guberniia risen 1916 60 percent , 670 , 000 1 , 120 , 000 inhabitants impressive change province 's ethnic character notwithstanding , , eve creation armenian republic , solid block 370 , 000 tartars continued dominate southern districts , outskirts ereven border persia \( see also map 1 historic armenia map 4 administrative subdivisions transcaucasia \) 1920 , '0' percent turk closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape tartars proceeded work extermination troops surrounded village village little resistance offered artillery knocked huts heaps stone dust villages became untenable inhabitants fled fields , bullets bayonets completed work tartars escaped course found refuge mountains succeeded crossing border turkey rest killed whole length borderland russian armenia nakhitchevan akhalkalaki hot plains ararat cold mountain plateau north dotted mute mournful ruins tartar villages quiet , villages , except howling wolves jackals visit paw scattered bones dead ohanus appressian men like p 202 source stanford j shaw , armenian collaboration invading russian armies 1914 , history ottoman empire modern turkey \( volume ii reform , revolution republic rise modern turkey , 1808 1975 \) \( london , cambridge university press 1977 \) pp 315 316 april 1915 dashnaks russian armenia organized revolt city van , whose 33 , 789 armenians comprised 42 3 percent population , closest armenian majority city empire leaving erivan april 28 , 1915 , armenian volunteers reached van may 14 organized carried general slaughter local muslim population next two days small ottoman garrison retreat southern side lake knowing numbers would never justify territorial ambitions , armenians looked russia europe fulfillment aims armenian treachery regard culminated beginning first world war decision revolutionary organizations refuse serve state , ottoman empire , assist instead invading russian armies hope participation russian success would rewarded independent armenian state carved ottoman territories armenian political leaders , army officers , common soldiers began deserting droves russian invasion eastern anatolia 1914 beginning world war , degree armenian collaboration ottoman 's enemy increased drastically ottoman supply lines cut guerilla attacks , armenian revolutionaries armed armenian civil populations , turn massacred muslim population province van anticipation expected arrival invading russian armies source stanford j shaw , history ottoman empire modern turkey , vol ii cambridge university press , london , 1979 , pp 314 317 meanwhile , czar nicholas ii came caucasus make final plans cooperation armenians ottomans , president armenian national bureau tiflis declaring response countries armenians hurrying enter ranks glorious russian army , blood serve victory russian arms let russian flag wave freely dardanelles bosporus let , , great majesty , peoples remaining turkish yoke receive freedom let armenian people turkey suffered faith christ receive resurrection new free life protection russia ' 155 armenians flooded czarist armies preparations made strike ottomans rear , czar returned st petersburg confident day finally come reach istanbul 155 horizon , tiflis , november 30 , 1914 , quoted hovannisian , road independence , p 45 fo 2485 , 2484 46942 , 22083 ottoman morale military position east seriously hurt , way prepared new russian push eastern anatolia , accompanied open armenian revolt sultan 156 156 hovannisian , road independence , pp 45 47 , iii 1 , pp 349 380 w e allen p muratoff , caucasian battlefields , cambridge , 1953 , pp 251 277 ali , harb , 2 vols , ankara , 1951 , ii , 41 160 fo 2146 fo 2485 fo 2484 , nos 46942 22083 armenian state organized van russian protection , appeared muslim natives dead driven away , might able maintain one oldest centers ancient armenian civilization armenian legion organized 'to expel turks entire southern shore lake preparation concerted russian drive bitlis vilayet ' 162 thousands armenians mus major centers east began flood new armenian state mid july many 250 , 000 armenians crowded van area , crisis housed fed 50 , 000 people , muslim non muslim alike 163 162 hovannisian , road independence , p 56 , nos 163 , vukela mazbatalari , debates august 15 17 , 1915 ali evrak odasi , 175 , 321 , van ami , 1333 10 september 1915 wait , diplomacy imperialism , william l langer , new york \( alfred \) , 1960 , pp 157 160 armenians watch opportunity kill turks kurds , set fire villages , make escape mountains also , since ottomans great , come armenians counted part rum millet , e forced control greek orthodox patriarchate \? people real \? main legal principles turkish state summarized article 2 constitution republic turkey democratic , secular social state governed rule law bearing mind concepts public peace , national solidarity justice respecting human rights loyal nationalism ataturk , based fundamental tenets set forth preamble constitution freedom culture religion prevailed ottoman empire , allowing many nations races within boundaries remain autonomous fact ottoman empire longest lived recent history may attributed freedoms , despite lack written constitution first attempts create written constitution occurred 1839 although documents adopted two attempts remained force temporarily , provided basic elements constitution 1876 constitution first legal document force parliament right election share sovereignty emperor constitution placed additional limitations emperor , increasing power parliament government first world war \( 1914 1918 \) brought ottoman empire end occupation istanbul , parliament dissolved constitution abolished members parliament sent exile island occupying forces independence war , turkish grand national assembly held first meeting april 23 , 1920 serve legislative body new turkish state assembly prepared new legal structure turkish republic new republic proclaimed october 29 , 1923 new constitution adopted 1924 constitution served legal backbone today 's modern turkish republic 1945 , turkey adopted multi party political system constitution 1924 replaced others 1961 1982 three constitutions republic based principles parliamentary democracy , human rights , national sovereignty , division powers , private ownership major principles constitution constitution \( 177 articles \) establishes structure republic within following principles turkish republic democratic , secular social state governed law governed maintain public peace , national solidarity , justice , human rights objectives ataturk language state turkish sovereignty vested nation without conditions restrictions sovereignty exercised organizations authorized nation legislative power carried parliament elected nation power cannot delegated \( transferred \) one else executive power exercised president , council ministers judicial power exercised independent courts behalf turkish nation individuals equal , irrespective language , race , religion , color , sex , political beliefs laws cannot contradict principles stated constitution structure state accordance constitution , structure state based principle division power create balanced self controlled system power divided legislative power , executive power , judicial power , balanced secure freedoms powers control \( self control \) legislative power turkish grand national assembly parliament one house , elected nation term five years exercise legislative power behalf nation basic functions assembly adopt , amend , repeal laws approve dismiss council ministers question ministers council ministers debate , amend approve annual budgets ratify international agreements grant amnesty members parliament liability words \( either oral written \) course legislative duties country divided constituencies number representatives calculated according population every turkish citizen age twenty one vote elections supervised supreme council elections , solves disputes appeals province , local board election runs controls election supervision guidelines supreme council members council boards elected among independent judges b executive power president republic head state \( head government unites states \) main functions president represent state country insure implementation constitution coordinate legislative , judicial executive functions act supreme commander armed forces ratify laws government decrees president elected grand national assembly period seven years president may ratify return laws second debate , may call referendum executive power exercised council ministers , headed prime minister prime minister appointed president members parliament prime minister names ministers approval president new government \( council ministers \) reads program parliament vote confidence follows 21 \( \? \) ministers council ministers members administration sued independent administrative courts misuse power , administrative errors functions law c judicial power judicial power exercised independent courts authority power instruct judges public prosecutors courts cannot discharged , replaced retired executive authorities except reasons clearly stated appropriate laws three categories courts turkish judiciary system courts justice deal legal , commercial criminal cases decisions courts may reviewed supreme court justice upon appeal parties involved decisions functions executive power \( including prime minister ministers governmental department \) appealed administrative courts functions decisions law decisions administrative courts may also reviewed high administrative court laws decisions grand national assembly examined constitutional court contradict constitution found contradictory , court may cancel decisions laws parliament serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
alaa peewee unx dec com \( alaa zeineldine \) subject hamas way death organization digital equipment corp x newsreader tin 1 1 pl3 lines 12 tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) writes brought separate question israel 's unjustified policies practices , still unclear reaction practices reflected article tim separate question mr clock deceiving judge resistance movement context occupation alaa zeineldine
adam endor uucp \( adam shostack \) subject investment yehuda shomron organization division applied sciences , harvard university lines 29 article igc apc org cpr igc apc org \( center policy research \) writes wish learn something perversion judaism , consult work yehoshua , many years head israeli intelligence opponent plo latest book published english includes detailed analysis judeo nazism mean talks jews , , self hatred , spend time attacking judaism , jews , israel , using despicable anti semetic stereotypes \? n't think need coin term like nazism refer jews , endless desire accepted nazis , dirty work call house jews , fools , anti semites jewish families think house jews , reference person jewish ancestry issues statements company organization condemn judaism perfectly think years free anti semetic role models would wonders adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu budget big enough drugs sexual favors , sure would n't waste members congress john perry barlow
unix amherst edu \( michael brian \) subject many israeli soldiers take organization amherst college x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl7 lines 2 boy really humorous i'm impressed incredible senses wit , sarcasm propriety mind post jokes mother \?
adam endor uucp \( adam shostack \) subject legality jewish purchase organization aiken computation lab , harvard university lines 104 article 1993apr16 bnr ca zbib bnr ca writes adam shostack writes sam zbib writes i'm surprised n't consider acquisition land jews arabs , purpose establishing exclusive state , hostile action leading war purpose establishing state , exclusive state state exclusive , would 400 000 arab citizens could please tell ethnic composition israel right formed 100 israeli citizens ethnic composition depends mean formed un israel \? war \? , consider purchase land hostile action someone wants buy land , someone else willing sell , mutually agreeable price , commerce hostile action leading war one right mind would sell freedom dignity palestinians exception perhaps heard anti trust business world anti trust laws place mandatory palestine \? since answer , 're argument , interestingly constructed , irrelevant however , respond points assert course talking anti trust laws establishing bridgehead european jews fleeing arab lands , jews second class citizens plus paid fair market value , etc jews often paid far fair market value land bought know victims international conspiracy know , sam , people start talking international jewish conspiracy , really begins sound like anti semitic bull reason conspiracy quite simple zionists made bones going conferences , publications , etc , talking creating national home jews israel gave citizenship remaining arabs maintain democratic facade \( keep western aid flowing \) israel got western aid 1948 , 1949 50 still granted citizenship arabs remained granting citizenship facade \? n't get wrong beleive israel democratic within constraints one dominant ethnic group \( jews \) arabs personaly , 've never heard anything arab community isreal except 're yes , 're community history roots , dead 've never heard , dead \? fact , claimed israel give arabs rights \( non existant \) international aid see argument hole could drive truck , assert israel democratic within \( unexplained \) constraints one ethnic group problem argument arabs allowed vote whoever please , please tell , sam , constraints israeli democracy n't exist democratic states \? 've never heard anything arab population mean history roots \? ben gurion university israel , one neighbors israeli arab n't really different neighbors make dead oppressed \? stand corrected meant jewish culture predominant palestine recent history problem jerusalem jewish character predominantly jewish make rest palestine \? recent recent \? probably build case jewish gaza city would pretty silly , could i'm arguing jerusalem jewish , land ethnicity adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu budget big enough drugs sexual favors , sure would n't waste members congress john perry barlow
euclid ucsd edu \( \) subject himmler 's speech jewish race lines 42 nntp posting host euclid ucsd edu washington stark reminder holocaust speech nazi ss leader heinrich himmler refers extermination jewish race went display friday national archives documents , including handwritten notes himmler , among best evidence exists rebut claims holocaust myth , say notes give authenticity , said robert wolfe , captured german records supposed destroy like lot bosses , n't obey rules documents , moved berlin himmler hoped would safe hiding place , recovered allied forces world war ii salt mine near , austria himmler spoke oct 4 , 1943 , , poland , 100 german secret police generals also want talk , quite frankly , grave matter among mentioned quite frankly , yet never speak publicly mean clearing jew , extermination jewish race page glory history never written never written emphasis mine german word himmler uses translated extermination wolfe said precise translation would tearing roots handwritten notes , himmler used euphemism , evacuation jews archives officials said extermination word actually spoke preserved archives himmler , adolf hitler 's final solution jewish question , committed suicide arrested 1945 national archives exhibit , display may 16 , preview opening united states holocaust memorial museum april 26 national archives exhibit includes page himmler 's handwritten notes , typed transcript speech offical translation made war crimes trials p a10 saturday 's l times , 4 17 93 \( associated press \) \( math ucsd edu \)
isaac se citri edu au \( isaac \) subject adl spying case organization collaborative information technology research institute lines 12 arens isi edu \( yigal arens \) writes los angeles times , tuesday , april 13 , 1993 p a1 new details extensive adl spy operation emerge inquiry transcripts reveal nearly 40 years espionage man infiltrated political groups richard c paddock , times staff writer file yigal \?
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject armenia denies historical fact turkish genocide reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 52 article 1993apr17 663 hellgate utah edu asylum cs utah edu cs utah edu \( kenneth \) writes sure hope , unspeakable crimes armenians must armenian invaders burned sacked fatherland ! ! justifiable right wrongs previous years ancestors tortured , enslaved , killed blacks want take responsibility may direct relatives things , know \? enough current torture , genocide go around lets correct lets forget forgive , every one us historical reason kill , torture take back things around us pray let us infantile past injustice suggesting forget cold blooded genocide 2 5 million muslim people armenians 1914 1920 \? people n't aware 1939 hitler said would pattern elimination jews based upon armenians turkish people 1914 , remembers today extermination tartars \? ' \( adolf hitler , august 22 , 1939 ruth w \( \) , turkish holocaust turk , p 213 \) refer turks kurds history 's forgotten people serve society well people totally unaware happened 1914 vicious society , run fascist armenians , decided simply use pretexts excuse , wiping peace loving , , intelligent productive ethnic group demand fascist government x soviet armenia redress wrongs done people way catch hold lose sight historical precedence century cannot reverse events past , must strive keep memory tragedy alive side atlantic , help prevent recurrence extermination people religion race means support claims turks kurds return lands x soviet armenia , determine future nation homeland serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject entire muslim population subjected genocide armenians reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 76 article sdcc12 ucsd edu sdcc13 ucsd edu \( hm \) writes azeri president elchibey said azerbaijan recovered bodies 500 terrorists including blacks , mongols fighters recently brought \( armenian capital \) yerevan lebanon dream whatever wish demands armenians government x soviet armenia , would sit , go outstanding issues , whether 's land reparations recognition , whatever 'd like sit ask means , lands properties taken away us returned rightful owners , turkish kurdish people , 3 , 000 years , long armenians ever showed area entire population region subjected genocide beyond belief genocide planned exterminate whole turkish people region last man , woman child armenians tortured massacred millions defenseless civilians assemble innocent civilians mosques burn buildings one methods even today traveler region seldom free evidence armenian crimes stomach , would strongly recommend following references armenian genocide muslims many also available van turkish genocide museums ' 1 neside kerem demir , bir sehid anasina tarihin soyledikleri turkiye'nin ermeni meselesi , hulbe basim yayin , ankara , 1982 2 veysel eroglu , ermeni mezalimi , sebil yayinevi , istanbul , 1978 3 alper gazigiray , osmanlilardan gunumuze kadar vesikalarla ermeni teroru'nun kaynaklari , gozen kitabevi , istanbul , 1982 4 dr kirzioglu fahrettin , kars ili cevresinde ermeni mezalimi , kardes matbaasi , ankara , 1970 final goodbye azerbaijan photo associated press cemetery agdam , azerbaijan , family members friends burial victims killed fighting nagorno karabagh , right , hugged coffin containing remains brother , one victims copy koran lay atop coffin new york times , 3 6 92 final embrace photo associated press , right , coffin holding remains brother relatives grieve cemetery yesterday amid burial victims killed fighting nagorno karabagh washington post , 3 6 92 nagorno karabagh victims buried azerbaijani town refugees claim hundreds died armenian attack seven bodies seen today , two children three women , one shot chest appeared close range another 120 refugees treated agdam 's hospital include many multiple stab wounds thomas goltz washington post , 2 28 92 serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject thousands armenians serving german army waffen ss reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 62 article sdcc12 ucsd edu sdcc13 ucsd edu \( hm \) writes turkey must bare teeth armenia sooner expect remember \? say vehemently disagree , seen bad fact , 1942 , nazi armenians europe established vast network pro german collaborators , extended two continents thousands armenians serving german army waffen ss russia western europe armenians involved espionage fifth column activities hitler balkans arabian peninsula promised state german agreement signed 'armenian national council ' \( copy agreement found record , ' november 1 , 1945 see document 1 \) side atlantic , nazi armenians aware alliance often expressed pro nazi sentiments america entered war summary , world war ii armenians carried away german might nazis zeal , armenian publication germany , hairenik , carried statements follows 1 sometimes difficult eradicate poisonous elements \( jews \) struck deep root like chronic disease , becomes necessary people \( nazis \) eradicate uncommon method , attempts regarded revolutionary surgical operation , flow blood natural thing brief view armenian genocide muslims jews extracts letter dated december 11 , 1983 , published san francisco chronicle , answer letter published journal signature one b amarian first hand information evidence armenian atrocities people \( jews \) members family witnessed murder 148 members family near erzurum , turkey , armenian neighbors , bent destroying anything anybody remotely jewish muslim armenians look history see havoc ancestors perpetrated upon neighbors armenians league hitler last war , premise grant self government , return , armenians would help exterminate jews armenians also hearty proponents anti semitic acts league russian communists mr amarian ! n't need bias signed ben levi , , california 1 james g , , , ' 'armenian review , ' quarterly hairenik association , inc , summer june 1957 , vol x , 2 38 serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject many muslim people slaughtered criminals \? reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 257 article 1993apr18 urartu sdpa org hla urartu sdpa org writes want discussion take place english , let 's face , words n't get noggin first place , 's hope tell us , 'sdpa org' , mouthpiece fascist x soviet armenian government role murder orhan gunduz kemal arikan \? many muslims slaughtered 'sdpa org' publicly declared filed legal authorities \? people die sdpa 91 urartu uucp yes , stated stand sdpa 255 urartu uucp january 28 , 1982 los angeles kemal arikan slaughtered two armenians driving work march 22 , 1982 cambridge , massachusetts prelude murder gift import shop belonging orhan gunduz blown gunduz receives ultimatum either gives honorary position executed refuses responsibility claimed jcag sdpa may 4 , 1982 cambridge , massachusetts orhan gunduz , turkish honorary consul boston , would bow armenian terrorist ultimatum give title honorary consul attacked murdered cold blood president reagan orders avail eye witness gave description murderer shot survives falls silent one revolting triumphs senseless , mindless history armenian terrorism murder brings absolutely nothing except ego boost murderer within armenian terrorist , already wallowing self satisfaction involved murder sarik ariyak \? december 17 , 1980 sydney two nazi armenians massacre sarik ariyak bodyguard , engin sever jcag sdpa claim responsibility source edward k , radical group hosts well attended solidarity meeting , armenian reporter , may 1 , 1986 , pp 1 18 athens , greece array representatives greek political parties , including ruling party , host political groups , armenian non armenian , joined voice solidarity armenian people pursuit cause activities new armenian political force voiced sunday , april 20 2nd international meeting solidarity armenian people judging encouraging messages offered representatives political groups organizations , least greece , armenian cause enjoys abundant support wide spectrum political world international meeting solidarity sponsored greek branch armenian popular movement , comparatively new political force headed younger generations armenians , openly profess support armed struggle armenian secret army liberation armenia \( asala \) organization branches various european middle eastern countries united states although branches appear gone switch loyalties split within ranks asala support , ruling party greece , armenian people , mr , member central committee party greek member permanent people 's tribunal explaining goals aspirations armenian popular movement ara significant address delivered mr abu , behalf popular front movement 's continued support armed struggle pursuit cause , palestinian operated run training camps would always open armenian youth need training struggle later , mr abu , answering question put writer , affirmed organization always trained armenian members asala policy continue doors camps always open armenian freedom fighters , affirmed among prominent greek politicians attended conference son prime minister , holds post greek cabinet two members cypriot parliament journeyed athens specific purpose attending international gathering representatives christian democratic party , edik center party , two wings communist party , representatives assortment labor unions trade associations , number greek towns cities two greek members european parliament members greek parliament also among participated international conference also hand follow deliberations ambassador bulgaria athens significant large number messages received organizers , including following palestinian national revolutionary movement , fatah popular front liberation palestine general command central committee palestinian national liberation movement fatah socialist progressive party lebanon arab socialist labor party democratic union iraq numerous international groups , noted radical stand israeli palestinian conflict support arf rm among messages received armenian groups armenian revolutionary federation revolutionary movement , group claimed assassination key party leaders lebanon accused selling foreign interests powers message clearly gave support armenian popular movement revolutionary movement continue reveal realities , matter bitter tragic , expose anti armenian activities leaders dashnag bureau message taken indication link , loose may , exists dissident dashnag group armenian popular movement , open supporters asala armed struggle armenian popular movement set headquarters greek capital , known kosmos , large armenian presence headquarters located two story building , appears turned activity part scores armenian youth , prefer give first names invited introduce comment \? vd8 cunixb cc columbia edu \( vedat dogan \) subject addressing message id 1993apr8 news columbia edu article 1993apr7 urartu sdpa org dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) writes article 1993apr7 news columbia edu vd8 cunixb cc columbia edu \( vedat dogan \) wrote response article 1993mar31 urartu org dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) writes \( source adventures near east , 1918 1922 rawlinson , \( jonathan cape , 30 bedford square , london , 1934 \( first published 1923 \) \( \( 287 pages \) dd pile garbage ! first , reference first published dd 1924 1923 , 353 pages 287 ! second , upon checking page dd 178 , asked believe vd , mr davidian vd first published 1923 \( book desk , ! \) vd vd furthermore , book 353 pages either , vd claimed , mr davidian 377 pages question \? well , seems book total page numbers closer mine n crap posted mr \( ! boy ! please , tell us quotes crap \? like ! ! ! really exist \? said previous posting , quotes exactly exist source given serdar argic could n't reject addition , author 's preface written january 15 , 1923 , book published 1924 go book , front page author 's preface give year 1923 15 january , 1923 , respectively ! \( anyone check library , , send copies pages , please ask sct \) really n't care year first published \( 1923 1924 \) care book writes murders , tortures , et given quotes serdar argic , denial quotes groundless , etc dd provide gif postings required verify claim ! vd new \? post gif file , going go effort show turkish modified publication book , like last time ! claim book hand published 1923 \( first publication \) exactly quoted info book published 1934 \( serdar argic 's reference \) could n't reject , avoiding real issues twisting around let 's see lie ! \( 'non quotes publication \) first said quote given reference called serdar argic liar ! said , , mr davidian , exactly existed quote \( even gave call number , page numbers reject \) , lying talking modified , published book \( without proof , , , , etc \) \( way , possible publish book 1923 first published 1924 \( claim \) sure well suited , usual \) ready send copies necessary pages anybody wants compare fact mr davidian 's lies also give call number page numbers library use , 949 6 r 198 page numbers verify quotes 218 215 possible \( 's text 287 pages , mine 353 , 377 ! , claiming ca n't reference saying possible , point \? differences number pages \? mine published 1923 serdar argic 's 1934 need use book size letter publications , etc , etc give idea ! ! issue number pages book year first published tried hide whole point point books exactly quotes moslems killed , tortured , etc armenians quotes given serdar argic exist ! ! issue , n't \? able object bother anyway \? name tortures murders \( armenians \) crap people think like among main reasons world still many 1993 question \? serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject made armenian synonymous idiot criminal nazi reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 208 article 1993apr19 urartu sdpa org hla urartu sdpa org writes \( mutlu argic cosar 's thousands others like \) 'sdpa org' criminals nazis action fascist government got away genocide 2 5 million turkish men , women children enjoying fruits genocide criminal organization get away genocide 's cover june 1915 , major uprising took place leadership famous nazi moslem districts burnt hundreds soldiers killed hundreds civilians also perished armenians first occupied region , included villages , , , , , , , , , , leaving wives , children property inaccessible spots , armenians joined forces armed bands coming districts plain mus , whole body 3000 men gathered mt five six hundred wished surround mus , started attacking tribe south city slaughtered number tribe seized goods religious beliefs muslims fell hands , muslims murdered frightful manner rebels also attacked regular troops vicinity mus , large numbers regular forces prevented occupying city rebels joined bandits mts , carrying frightful massacres looting among tribes neighbourhood burned 's alive raped number turkish women spot three four hours' distance strangled beginning august rebels attacked , tribes , equally horrible atrocities rebels villages cal attacked kurds neighbourhood , well villages towards end august , armenians attacked kurds vicinity mus burned three four villages , including 3000 rebels , continued spread death destruction among muslims christian communities , refusing lay arms source , armenians history documentary publications \( istanbul \) , 1988 p 954 speech given sivas congress , mustafa kemal drew picture country occupation east , armenians making preparations advancing river \( \) , already started policy massacring moslem population pp 966 967 situation southern provinces turkey signing described ataturk speech armenians south , armed foreign troops encouraged protection enjoyed , molested district pursued relentless policy murder extinction everywhere responsible tragic incident armenians completely destroyed old town like artillery machine gun fire killed thousands innocent defenceless women children armenians atrocities , unique history source documents volume \( 1919 \) document 15 , archive 1 2 , cabin 113 , drawer 3 , file 520 , section 2024 , contents 11 1 11 3 \( 19 feb 330 '4 march , district governor kemal \) list male inhabitants village murdered annihilated utmost armenians names method annihilation haci ibrahim , son bullets bayonet , son haci ibrahim bullets bayonet , son beaten cut pieces , son beaten cut pieces , son beaten cut pieces , son stabbed eye bayonet musa , son bayonet eye , son bayonet eye abdullah , son bayonet eye ibo , son haci bayonet eye , son haci bayonet eye abdullah , son slaughtered ibo , son ahmet abdomen ripped open ismail , son ibo burnt fire , son bullets , son slaughtered , son bullets , son bullets , son bullets , son peri bullets haci , son peri bullets mehmet , son bayonet ibo , son bayonet , son bayonet suleyman burnt oven , son abdullah stabbed abdomen bayonet , son hasan bullets , son mehmet stabbed dagger murat , son hasan stabbed dagger , son blinded bayonet , son mehmet stabbed dagger abdullah , son bullets abdullah bullets , son bullets muammer , son bullets paso , son bullets , son bullets murat , son yusuf bullets bayonet , son haci ibrahim bullets bayonet mehmet bullets bayonet , son bullets bayonet list massacred females village , daughter wife haci ibrahim bullets , daughter isa , wife bullets , daughter , wife bayonet , daughter cutting breasts , daughter , ripping open abdomen burning wife ibo baby oven , daughter ibo slaughtered burnt oven burnt oven , daughter , wife slaughtered , daughter mehmet , wife halil bullets , daughter haci , wife suleyman burnt oven , daughter ali , wife slaughtered , daughter haci , wife ahmet slaughtered , daughter bullet bayonet list females village raped murdered , daughter haci , wife hani , daughter , wife , daughter , wife , daughter sami , wife hilo wounded males females village \( long list \) list massacred males females village , son bullets , son ismail bullets , son bullets ali , son bayonet , son bayonet bullets isa , son bayonet bullets , son beaten rifle butt , daughter hasan died injuries , daughter ali , wife died injuries , daughter huseyin , wife huseyin died injuries list raped women village life sabo , daughter virgin , daughter virgin , daughter , wife , daughter ali , wife , daughter mahi virgin list persons attacked armenian gangs \( long list \) serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
dzk cs brown edu \( danny keren \) subject himmler 's speech jewish race organization brown university department computer science lines 56 appropriate add himmler said inferior races human animals speech elsewhere speech reichsfuehrer ss himmler , ss major generals , , october 4 1943 nazi conspiracy aggression , vol iv , p 559 one basic principal must absolute rule ss man must honest , decent , loyal , members blood nobody else happens russian , czech , interest slightest nations offer good blood type , take , necessary kidnapping children raising us whether nations live prosperity starve death interests far need slaves culture otherwise , interest whether 10 , 000 russian females fall digging anti tank ditch interest far anti tank ditch germany finished shall never rough heartless necessary , clear germans , people world decent attitude towards animals , also assume decent attitude towards human animals crime blood worry give ideals , thus causing sons difficult time someone comes says , cannot dig anti tank ditch women children , inhuman , kill , would say , murderer blood anti tank ditch dug , german soldiers die , sons german mothers blood extract himmler 's address party comrades , september 7 1940 trials wa criminals , vol iv , p 1140 pole sexual dealing german woman , mean sexual intercourse , man hanged right front camp others besides , provisions made sufficient number polish women girls come along well necessity kind question women brought courts without mercy , facts sufficiently proved borderline cases always happen sent concentration camp must , unless one million poles hundreds thousands workers alien blood inflict untold damage german blood avail case would better know need danny keren
terziogl ee rochester edu \( esin terzioglu \) subject armenia says could shoot turkish planes organization univ rochester , college engineering applied science lines 33 article 1993apr19 155856 8260 kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes article 1993apr17 185118 10792 ee rochester edu , terziogl ee rochester edu \( esin terzioglu \) writes article 1993apr16 195452 urartu sdpa org dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) writes 04 16 93 1045 armenia says could shoot turkish planes let translate everyone else public traslation service gets armenia getting itchy esin let clearify mr turkish armenia getting itchy simply letting world know longer sit quiet let turks get away famous tricks armenians remember turkish invasion greek island cypress world simply watched ignorance obvious posting 1 \) cyprus independent country turkish greek inhabitants \( greek island like ignorant posting claims \) 2 \) name cyprus \( english \) next time read learn post esin
eshneken ux4 cso uiuc edu \( edward shnekendorf \) subject go hezbollah ! ! organization university illinois urbana lines 17 mafifi eis calstate edu \( marc afifi \) writes let 's forget soldiers killed murdered distinction trivial murder happens innocent people , people whose line work kill killed happened soldiers , line duty , killed opposition still n't mean cheer deaths policemen also line fire job includes possibility getting killed happy die \? said , question whether agree policies israel may wish israelis cease occupation , n't rejoice death marc ed
eshneken ux4 cso uiuc edu \( edward shnekendorf \) subject go hezbollah ! ! organization university illinois urbana lines 45 amehdi src honeywell com \( hossien amehdi \) writes article news cso uiuc edu eshneken ux4 cso uiuc edu \( edward shnekendorf \) writes hell know israeli policy \? gives fiat look minds israeli generals \? published somewhere \? information , actions taken arabs , specifically plo , uncommon lebanon campaign 1982 brain full shit \? least n't look minds others make israeli policy ! deleted business reading minds , however case would necessary israelis top leaders past present , always come across arrogant tough talks trying intimidate arabs would deal arabs always threaten drive sea burn half \? would talk nicely \? would say please \? would n't language middle east power force sorry way n't strong , go israel talk act tough notice , israel talks acts tough battle , willing talk peace way see , israelis arabs able achieve peace almost 50 years fighting following two major reasons 1 \) arab governments really representative people , currently leaders stupid , independent , dictators true brainwashed people thinking jews sort monsters arab non recognition israel support war terror also important factor , would n't say \? 2 \) israeli government arrogant none comprising want israel \? \? i'm sick people calling israel withdraw territories 's realistic , n't realize \? solution must negotiated table patience ed
bob1 cos com \( bob blackshaw \) subject go hezbollah ! ! organization corporation open systems distribution world lines 60 f7a eis calstate edu mafifi eis calstate edu \( marc afifi \) writes stssdxb st unocal com \( dorin baru \) writes even , one sided \( jewish israeli \) postings \( certainly disagree \) , openly back plain murder talking bunch lebanese farmers detonate bombs work , organized entity lebanese well trained mercenaries \? know , curious guess also back killings hundreds marines beirut , right \? kind movement killed jewish munich 1972 \? liked , n't \? posted garbage , least seem consistent dorin dorin , let 's forget soldiers killed murdered distinction trivial murder happens innocent people , people whose line work kill killed happened soldiers , line duty , killed opposition resistance different terrorism certainly athletes munich victims terrorists \( though might call freedom fighters \) us call murderous bastards , 's name deaths cannot compared soldiers killed resistance fighters n't forget french resistance nazi occupying forces eventually succeeded driving hostile occupiers wwii diplomacy worked israel damn minute ! history books read \? seem recall british , canadian , american , commonwealth soldiers france time perhaps believe taking vacation trip \? lebanese people tired occupied ! turning option see viable \( n't forget worked driving us \) sure , lebanese want get foreigners country go back killing marc reb people narrow minded see crack door eyes opinions employer opinions
shaig think com \( shai guday \) subject fundamentalism organization thinking machines corporation , cambridge , usa lines 17 distribution world nntp posting host composer think com article khan0095 nova , khan0095 nova gmi edu \( mohammad razi khan \) writes one biggest complaints using word fundamentalist \( least u \) people speak muslime fundamentalists muslim nobody defines jewish fundamentalist wonder equal definition would takers well , would go far saying definitely jewish fundamentalists ultra orthodox jewish groups might well , though hesitant making broad generalization shai guday stealth bombers , os software engineer thinking machines corp winged ninjas skies cambridge ,
shaig think com \( shai guday \) subject go hezbollah ! ! organization thinking machines corporation , cambridge , usa lines 28 distribution world nntp posting host composer think com article f7a eis calstate edu , mafifi eis calstate edu \( marc afifi \) writes n't forget french resistance nazi occupying forces eventually succeeded driving hostile occupiers wwii actually , incorrect french resistance may played part hindering german war effort , however crucial role supplied day diplomacy worked israel lebanese people tired occupied ! turning option see viable \( n't forget worked driving us \) interesting statement especially consider lebanon claimed made progress peace talks , well israel course , one prime obstacles israel 's complete withdrawal lack governmental control applied area well large presence syrian forces asked withdraw well shai guday stealth bombers , os software engineer thinking machines corp winged ninjas skies cambridge ,
pgf5 cunixb cc columbia edu \( peter garfiel freeman \) subject enough freeman bashing ! free man propaganda machine blood greetings israel nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply pgf5 cunixb cc columbia edu \( peter garfiel freeman \) organization columbia university lines 18 article eis calstate edu mafifi eis calstate edu \( marc afifi \) writes pgf5 cunixb cc columbia edu \( peter garfiel freeman \) writes peter , believe succinct post date since nothing say , say nothing ! 's brilliant think \? marc hey tough guy , read topic 's message get brain go real school
ptg2351 uxa cso uiuc edu \( panos tamamidis \) subject turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece \( armenia azeris \) organization university illinois urbana lines 60 tankut iastate edu \( sabri atan \) writes article news cso uiuc edu , ptg2351 uxa cso uiuc edu \( panos tamamidis \) writes \( nothing greeks problem fanatics met many greeks would n't even talk turkish experience , friends always open greeks \) well , history , wars , current situations , help well , panos , mr tamamidis \? , way put turks bear responsibility things happening today hard believe somebody trying objective well , put things historical perspective , turks moved area , inhabited greeks history two nations started centuries ago since , continuous battle two nations perspective ca n't see say greeks responsible happened two nations course , would reasonable argue hostility drag till kick turks area n't going happen , best would improve relations two countries golden exists cyprus things ca n't work , n't possible way could work nations comes conflicts like countries cannot blame one side , always bad guys sides anatolia ww1 anyway \? think right \? always avoid discuss things consider waist time besides , said , want open new flame saying conflicts started one side aggressive ither always suffering sad \( \) still trying compromise remember action turkish government removing visa requirement greeks come turkey thought positive attempt make relations better thought smart move receive money greek tourists bet week 200 , 000 tourists greece turkey one leave least 1 , 000 go figure means economy kept visa requirement , many greeks would bother visit turkey \? greeks mentioned would n't talk educated people never met know ! bad person turkey politics business , business turks comes individuals hatred \? come extrapolate limited personal experience err think 'd get reasonable conclusion tankut atan tankut iastate edu panos tamamidis
dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) subject iranian azeri would drop atomic bomb armenia summary fool article urartu 1993apr15 organization p center regional studies lines 70 article 93104 oduvm bitnet farid oduvm bitnet writes farid support preservation territorial integrity farid azerbaijan independence russian rule , iranians farid includes millions azerbaijanis armenia retreat farid territory azerbaijan oh , \? prove quite interesting ! farid count iranian help supposedly counter turkish influence farid fatal error part armenia long armenia farid violation international law azerbaijani lands occupation armenia counting iranian help far violations international laws , international law gives azerbaijan right attack armenians karabakh \? farid armenian aggression continues territory azerbaijan , farid wo n't aid iran armenia also steps farid taken armenian army back armenia speak \? \? farid azerbaijanis iran policy farid scaring iranians turks russian power , experts present farid future military potentials people would put much farid stock power sole power region long ! ! ! well , farid , supposed experts expert ! russians non stop influence caucasus since treaty hmm makes 1993 165 years ! oh , see azeris iran going force armenians karabakh ! real good trick ! farid iran developing capability produce bomb farid reliable delivery system \( refer recent news releases farid regarding potential iran \) azeris iran going force armenians karabakh forcing iranian government drop atomic bomb armenians farid moral story , n't go invading neighbor 's farid home \( azerbaijan \) flash russia 's guns questioned oh , 's fine drop atomic bomb neighbor ! damn fool , farid ! farid \( marshal may eat words regarding turkey farid short years ! \) going drop atomic bomb russia well farid peaceful resolution armenian azerbaijani conflict farid way go armenia may soon find fruits aggression bitter farid indeed armenians take peaceful dropping atomic bomb example iranian azeri benevolence ! sir poor example iranian azeri ! ha ! think nice two day stay back 1978 ! david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org explain turkish troops p center regional studies armenian border , ca n't p box 382761 even explain 1915 \? cambridge , 02238 turkish mp , march 1992
troy cc bellcore com \( c akgun \) subject turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece \( armenia azeris \) nntp posting host troy cc bellcore com organization bcr , nj usa lines 126 article news cso uiuc edu uxa cso uiuc edu \( \) writes concentration labor camp turkey \( around 1974 later \) cypriot greeks \( greeks \) rather talking nonsense like , glad read got position know kind concentration camps akgun \? living days age 20 following internal external news gives knowledge position 1974 , turkey democratic goverment free press time forget internal news agencies , n't heard anything international source concentration camps greek cypriot prisoners turkey however , heard adana pow camp secret well recognized pow camp registered prisoners red cross returned homes , version story cases prisoners registered , even sent messages relatives , released undeniable facts see , vanished turkish labor camps turks decided acknowledge existence first later changed minds releasing \? think happened \? thought mia 's subject rambo chuck movies seems wrong treatment according convention \? okay believe n't need belive turkiye never state history , respected continuous member un since inception un body ever questioned un membership turkey happened short lived arms embargo imposed unilaterally usa satisfy internal greek know would say next let answer wasting anytime yes ! un condemning resolutions turkey handling cyprus problem , especially 1980 coup well , us israel say \? sure athens junta 1960 74 , greeks share closed matter today turkish cypriots turks greeks greek cypriots official demand greek cypriots missing greek cypriots heard official demand regarding missing persons \? looked latest un agenda cyprus talks mediated \? issue whatsoever missing people among negotiating parties \? heard many times interviews turkish international press keeps saying longer issue peace talks also , n't want fish greek cypriot politician 's words \( argic posted zillion times \) describing missing peoples greek cypriot myth seems different opinions among greek cypriots well missing people turkish custody claim majority missing persons infact killed period coup invasion , 5 days , simply true cases missing persons know , know quite , cases people either reserve forces lost somewhere battlefield , civilians taken prisoners villages turkish army claiming anything told given greek cypriots answer turkish goverment turkish cypriots wanted locate july 15 final cease fire late august , 1974 answer seems satisfy international community , un , goverment \( since make issue peace talks \) also , aware un condemnation turkey missing greek cypriot \? btw , mean sampson coup nobody got hurt events \? photos refer , photos greek cypriot soldiers rounded , also others prison camp turkey like said even different opinion among greek cypriots myth officers turkish army governed adana pow camp must hell clever dudes cover tracks 8 \) hope turkish army type morons security turkiye however , must good subject movie script one inform oliver stone course , justice served well bosnian pleas answered , 's going dare ask happens behind ethnic cleansing idea known today \( eoka b known 1974 \) everybody openly even giving tv interviews may take time eoka b case , however , justice served akgun , comparing actions serbians bosnian actions turkey cyprus something would turk thought serbians savages , inhumane beasts etc etc c akgun understood paragraph , better let computer system administrator check character conversion tables system ok , inform mine 8 \) c akgun
amehdi src honeywell com \( hossien amehdi \) subject reasons go hezbollah ! ! nntp posting host src honeywell com organization honeywell systems research center lines 13 article 1993apr15 unocal com stssdxb st unocal com \( dorin baru \) writes , tough talk arrogance , adults , n't \? listen tough talk american politicians \? switch channel \? guess , n't make point clear case israel government , tough talk intimidation policy , many people talking goes tough talks , followed aggressive actions followed taking pride actions bragging
pgf5 cunixb cc columbia edu \( peter garfiel freeman \) subject deriving pleasure death nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply pgf5 cunixb cc columbia edu \( peter garfiel freeman \) organization columbia university lines 13 \( way , applaud killing human , including prisoners sentenced death illustrious justice department \) peace marc boy , really stupid person justice department sentence people death 's state courts , get brain
bh437292 longs lance colostate edu \( basil hamdan \) subject go hezbollah ! reply bh437292 lance colostate edu nntp posting host parry lance colostate edu organization engineering college , colorado state university lines 116 try answer dorin 's questions , even though addressed specifically , feel bit concerned thread since southern lebanese village often receiving end israel 's bombs first place death three soldiers patrol occupied lebanese act terrorism murder compare death athletes munich act terrorism exercise aimed solely diverting issue far truth seems , dorin , , remote ignorant problem ground comments irrelevant , heavily colored misinformation try paint accurate picture situation really south lebanon article 1993apr15 unocal com , stssdxb st unocal com \( dorin baru \) writes israeli civilian , opinion \? , condone bombing villages , kind villages claim villages civilians , claim camps filled terrorists claim israelis shell villages finding terrorist kill one , fine , , bad , civilians die , right \? sure back home village last summer information people , bunch indiscriminate terrorists people village regular inhabitants go daily business , work fields , small shops , others older men go shop drink coffee hard imagine \? \? \? \? terrorist camp israelis like view villages small communities kids playing soccer streets , women preparing lunch , men playing cards , etc young men , usually aged 17 30 years members lebanese resistance even inhabitants village know , secretive , people often suspect young men supported financially iran time sneak arms ammunitions occupied zone set booby traps israeli patrols every time israeli soldier killed injured traps , israel retalliates indiscriminately bombing villages choosing often killing innocent civilians back announce bombed terrorist 8 year old girl happened accustomed israeli tactics , figure israeli way telling us 're gonna hurt soldiers 're gonna pay price accept price pay free land , israel knows well really hurting resistance much militarily strikes , rather keeping pressure villagers demand young men stop attacking israeli soldiers since attacks taking heavy toll lives civilian villagers israel 's policy cold hearted , reality come accept deal , lebanese resistance hand going stop attacks occupying israeli soldiers withdraw , real leverage force israel withdraw people south lebanon occupied , shelled israel regular basis want occupied israel insists called security zone necessary protection northern israel , pay price occupation blood soldiers israel interested peace , withdraw land asking establishment lebanese occupied zone northern israel protect villages attacked regular basis israel , best policy seems removal israeli occupation establishment peace keeping troops along border written newsgroup , real solution come result comprehensive peace settlement whereby israel withdraws borders peace keeping troops stationed along border insure one either side border shelled realistic solution , time israel realize concept buffer zone aimed protecting northern cities failed fact caused much israeli deaths occasional shelling northern israel would resulted israel really wants save israeli lives would withdraw unilaterally called security zone conclusion peace talks move would save israeli lives , advance peace efforts , give israel great moral lift , better israel 's public image abroad give edge peace negociations since israel rightly claim genuinely interested peace already offered important concessions along withdrawal israel could demand hizbollah disarmed lebanese government warn accept attacks northern cities shelling occurs consider taking buffer zone hold lebanese syrian government responsible seems little incentive syrian lebanese allow hizbollah bomb israel proper circumstances , lebanese government proven capable controlling disarming militias parts lebanon ask questions , problem answering \( question , \) , nobody qualified candidate murder , nothing justifies murder agree , case soldiers killing cannot qualified murder , matter say feeling may able make similar statements , maybe eliminating israelis , jews , \? wrong \? yes , quarrel jews , israeli civilians real problem occupying israeli soldiers brave israeli pilots bomb civilian villages every time occupying soldier attacked dorin basil
warren ac il \( warren burstein \) subject serdar argic organization , jerusalem , israel lines 42 1993apr13 fourd com bill paxton fourd com writes hello serdar , would like much meet located \? let know soon possible meet looking forward meeting n't know reach serdar , might able reach sysadmin email , phone , snail mail information rs net ahmet cosar \( anatolia dom \) 6th st suite minneapolis , minnesota , domain name anatolia org administrative contact , technical contact , zone contact cosar , ahmet \( \) cosar anatolia org 612 376 7873 finger cosar umn edu gets name ahmet cosar 1 info last registered 1993 winter qtr internet mailbox student tc umn edu mailbox profs postal address 6th st apt minneapolis mn surname cosar telephone 1 612 376 7873 title grad x 400 mailbox g ahmet cosar 1 ou mail tc prmd umn edu admd c us warren nysernet org
27916070 plearn bitnet subject warsaw ghetto uprising 50th anniversary visitor 's abc originator tpm israel nysernet org reply 27916070 plearn bitnet organization nysernet lines 32 original message sb , \( la \( , yom , g , shalom ! visiting ghetto city days might interested following events timetable \( abridged \) 19 00 , fri , 16th april , '93 service \( 6 street , warsaw 10 walk palace science culture building city 's centre , distance central railway station \) 09 30 , sat , 17th april , service , 11 30 , sun , 18th april , fallen ones memorial service , 13 00 , sun , 18th april , memorial ceremony jewish cemetery \( street , warsaw \) 18 00 , sun , 18th april , official arts programme congress hall \( building adjacent palace science culture , like located quarter 's walk downtown hotels bristol , forum , victoria , , holiday inn , \) 12 00 , mon , 19th april , laying ghetto heros monument shalom ! , student , univ warsaw \( dept hebrew \) , warsaw ani shalom q k z' guest e mail account 27916070 plearn bitnet
jade tufts edu \( nissan \) subject go hezbollah ! ! organization tufts university medford , lines 13 congratulations also due hamas activists blew world trade center , \? , every american put grave underlining usa 's bankrupt imperialist policies go hamas ! blah blah blah blah blah brad , asking violence love much come back haunt nissan
khan0095 nova gmi edu \( mohammad razi khan \) subject fundamentalism organization gmi engineering management institute , flint , mi lines 10 ok , someone fundamentalist , someone else defines fundamentalist \( ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! \) essential question nobody agreed upon answer , least literature discussion news 've seen mohammad r khan khan0095 nova gmi edu july '93 , please send mail mkhan nyx cs du edu
jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) subject go hezbollah ! ! organization department redundancy department lines 17 article 327 news cso uiuc edu eshneken ux4 cso uiuc edu \( edward shnekendorf \) writes brad , 're sick son bitch wishing someone 's death , even enemy , deranged really pity like acquire philosophy islam \? brad hernlem \( hernlem chess ncsu edu \) ed interesting question ponder brad ali 's sickness make style islam attractive new religion brad ali formally adopted give sickness \? jake livni jake bony1 bony com ten years , george bush american occupied new york replaced jimmy carter opinions employer opinions standard failed president
jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) subject go hezbollah ! ! organization department redundancy department lines 21 article f7a eis calstate edu mafifi eis calstate edu \( marc afifi \) writes diplomacy worked israel course , n't besides egypt , rest arab world still officially denies israel exists lebanese people tired occupied ! turning option see viable kick syria \? \( n't forget worked driving us \) american occupied lebanon \? 's new one ! jake livni jake bony1 bony com ten years , george bush american occupied new york replaced jimmy carter opinions employer opinions standard failed president
jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) subject go hezbollah ! ! organization department redundancy department lines 39 article 1993apr14 ncsu edu hernlem chess ncsu edu \( brad hernlem \) writes hezbollah lebanese resistance fighters skilled precision bombing sla israeli targets 's hard beat car bomb suicidal driver getting right target blowing even booby traps radio controlled bombs cars pretty efficient killers point find methods far restrained responsible part islamic value system \? israeli method shelling bombing villages hope hezbollah member killed along civilians murdered israeli methods anything like , iraq 've long ago , entire arab towns deported executions performed tens thousands fact , though , israeli methods n't even 1 10 , evil common everyday arab states soldiers trained die country three idf soldiers duty day men need died government kept israeli soil israeli soil \? \? \? \? brad ali ! wait 's thought police get wind 's holy muslim soil \( tm \) forgotten \? may allah mercy brad hernlem \( hernlem chess ncsu edu \) jake livni jake bony1 bony com ten years , george bush american occupied new york replaced jimmy carter opinions employer opinions standard failed president
stssdxb st unocal com \( dorin baru \) subject deriving pleasure death organization unocal corporation lines 26 peter garfiel freeman writes \( way , applaud killing human , including prisoners sentenced death illustrious justice department \) peace marc boy , really stupid person justice department sentence people death 's state courts , get brain peter , think ridiculous stupidity measure well someone knows judicial system guess marc meant death penalty matter meant , statement justified regards , dorin
handel sun com \( \) subject news briefs kh 1025 organization central lines 18 article cis ohio state edu cis ohio state edu writes 1 e 's member many times arrested tortured speak still prison 2 item confirms long standing suspicion reason regime destroyed e completely show brag freedom expression iran propaganda paper get serious ! regime way , would absolutely freedom expression anywhere , even sci really isnt , seen heavy usage anonymous posting didnt roam around sci , anon poster would get used occasionally \( good old days \)
stssdxb st unocal com \( dorin baru \) subject reasons go hezbollah ! organization unocal corporation lines 32 hossien amehdi writes article 1993apr15 unocal com stssdxb st unocal com \( dorin baru \) writes , tough talk arrogance , adults , n't \? listen tough talk american politicians \? switch channel \? guess , n't make point clear case israel government , tough talk intimidation policy , many people talking goes tough talks , followed aggressive actions followed taking pride actions bragging agressive actions taken sides tough talk done sides arab leader menacing throw jews water also tough talk , think killing people mildly agressive \( justified , opinion israeli soldiers , justified , others' opinion jews , justified others opinion \) brad wrote article 3 israelis killed , ther lot pride satisfaction lines 's feel disgusting may agree killing murder , \? , may appreciate points , objective blame , remark dorin
adam endor uucp \( adam shostack \) subject israeli expansion lust organization aiken computation lab , harvard university lines 83 article 1993apr13 bnr ca zbib bnr ca writes article 1993apr13 das harvard edu adam endor uucp \( adam shostack \) writes article 1993apr12 1370 bnr ca zbib bnr ca writes imho , really matter started individual battle within arabs isreal war context real question started war anyone doubts creation israel arab land \? huh \? war started several armies invaded israel , drive jews sea jews wanted live peace , arabs stayed israel granted citizenship surprised n't consider acquisition land jews arabs , purpose establishing exclusive state , hostile action leading war purpose establishing state , exclusive state state exclusive , would 400 000 arab citizens , consider purchase land hostile action someone wants buy land , someone else willing sell , mutually agreeable price , commerce hostile action leading war whether jews wanted live peace , maybe however wanted still want exclusively jewish state , jews control jews masters land living peace meaningless unless means living someone else , equal native arab , leave many options oh , mean like jews arabs citizens \? arabs stayed citizens , much right choose vote jews palestinians stayed , actually stayed despite happened , number somewhat tolerated defenseless ineffective minority wrong , 'd israel recall palestinian refugees \( 're talking millions \) , civilians huh \? people left , voluntarily reason israel let israel gave citizenship remaining arabs maintain democratic facade \( keep western aid flowing \) israel got western aid 1948 , 1949 50 still granted citizenship arabs remained granting citizenship facade \? tell something , sam makes land arab \? shall explain , contract man land control n't ottomans ruled 400 years , left barely trace concept land identity somewhat foreign mobile pragmatic west partly concept sol , native soil know jews previous history region , none recent memory i'm talking everyday life archeology try , tell n't , fail establish also , jews history israel thousand years lots jews slaughtered israel thriving community gaza city roughly 1200 1500 jews majority jerusalem 1870 onwards make land jewish \? adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu budget big enough drugs sexual favors , sure would n't waste members congress john perry barlow
adam endor uucp \( adam shostack \) subject arafat \( sampson \) organization aiken computation lab , harvard university lines 61 article copper denver colorado edu copper denver colorado edu \( \) writes article 1993apr10 colorado edu perlman qso colorado edu \( eric perlman \) writes perhaps , though one argue whether current palestinian delegation represents plo \( would hope , plo really n't kind legitimacy \) matter , naftaly , adam , others , arafat advises delegation plo , overall , supports \? also matter arafat , behalf plo , recognizes israel right exist \? , israel 's new policy concerning direct negotiations plo hold substance situation whole \? , arafat explicitly denies claim televison interview yasser arafat 7 19 1991 q people say palestinian revolution many times changed strategies tactics , something left palestinian problem palestinian liberation front strategies tactics clear question , direction palestinian problem clear \? palestinian leadership stopped , least said media , happened way dialogue united states , plo recognized something called israel , , ! recognize state israel said recognition palestinian state established decide recognize israel established , parliament decide policies justify occupation , movements reject israel 's authority disregard human rights , israel serious peace , would abandon policies replace \? israel withdraw control territory , must two one leads reduction deaths second weaken israels position respect peace talks leaving gaza bad idea encourages arabs think get want killing jews way israel pull gaza end negotiations negotiations lead mutually agreeable solution security guarantees sides arabs ready sit table talk , expect , recieve concessions adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu budget big enough drugs sexual favors , sure would n't waste members congress john perry barlow
adam endor uucp \( adam shostack \) subject fundamentalism organization aiken computation lab , harvard university lines 19 article khan0095 nova khan0095 nova gmi edu \( mohammad razi khan \) writes one biggest complaints using word fundamentalist \( least u \) people speak muslime fundamentalists muslim nobody defines jewish fundamentalist wonder equal definition would takers american press routinely uses word fundamentalist refer christians jews christian often refered context anti abortion protests american media also uses fundamentalist refer jews live judea , samaria gaza , jew follows torah adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu budget big enough drugs sexual favors , sure would n't waste members congress john perry barlow
pgf5 cunixa cc columbia edu \( peter garfiel freeman \) subject deriving pleasure death nntp posting host cunixa cc columbia edu reply pgf5 cunixa cc columbia edu \( peter garfiel freeman \) organization columbia university lines 22 regards condemnation marc 's ridiculous attacks american department justice , attacks jews , anyone took offense calling marc stupid , apologize pointing obvious waste net 's time hope , though , american citizens basic knowlege structure american government understand relationship justice department part executive branch , courts , judicial branch marc 's ignorance basic civic knowlege underscores inability comprehend interpret foreign affairs peace , pete
adam endor uucp \( adam shostack \) subject israeli expansion lust organization aiken computation lab , harvard university lines 24 article 1993apr14 bnr ca zbib bnr ca writes , actions lebanese resistance help send isrealis packing , i'm really concerned bloodshed , little self criticism could great favor one days 'll learn way stop israel fighting back stop attacking attacks security zone year lebanese army could maintain peace , lebanon would much better shape tell something , though syrian troops get attacked \? n't occupying lebanon \? israel repeatedly stated leave two conditions one demonstration lebanese army keep peace second syrians pull well adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu budget big enough drugs sexual favors , sure would n't waste members congress john perry barlow
adam endor uucp \( adam shostack \) subject go hezbollah ! ! organization aiken computation lab , harvard university lines 33 article f7a eis calstate edu mafifi eis calstate edu \( marc afifi \) writes resistance fighters n't forget french resistance nazi occupying forces eventually succeeded driving hostile occupiers wwii time thought us invading normandy , constant , round clock bombing , fact germans fighting two fronts silly \) actions resistance movements , resistance movements defeat nazis diplomacy worked israel lebanese people tired occupied ! turning option see viable \( n't forget worked driving us \) israel repeatedly stated leave lebanese government shows prevent attacks israel , syrians agree leave lebanese tried diplomacy long , maybe 're capable getting rid syrians iranians occupy land closed , negotiated withdrawl syrian forces , israel would happy leave adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu budget big enough drugs sexual favors , sure would n't waste members congress john perry barlow
adam endor uucp \( adam shostack \) subject go hezbollah ! organization aiken computation lab , harvard university lines 57 article apr15 175334 72079 yuma acns colostate edu bh437292 lance colostate edu writes post deleted come accept deal , lebanese resistance hand going stop attacks occupying israeli soldiers withdraw , real leverage force israel withdraw tell , young men also attack syrian troops \? blood soldiers israel interested peace , withdraw land must guarantee peace happens seems many lebanese youth unable restrain violence , unable realize actions prolong israels stay south lebanon lebanese army able maintain peace , israel would , israel prefers soldiers die rather children israel really wants save israeli lives would withdraw unilaterally called security zone conclusion peace talks move would save israeli lives , advance peace efforts , give israel great moral lift , better israel 's public image abroad give edge peace negociations since israel rightly claim genuinely interested peace already offered important concessions israel withdraw lebanon peace treaty signed day withdraw casualties would tell lebanese people need push israel around kill soldiers gonna happen along withdrawal israel could demand hizbollah disarmed lebanese government warn accept attacks northern cities shelling occurs consider taking buffer zone hold lebanese syrian government responsible israel demand holding buffer zone \? seems better bargaining position holding neighbors land lebanon willing agree conditions , israel would quite probably left already unfortunately , n't seem lebanese disarm , maintain peace adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu budget big enough drugs sexual favors , sure would n't waste members congress john perry barlow
tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) subject go hezbollah ! nntp posting host orion oac uci edu organization university california , irvine lines 133 article apr15 175334 72079 yuma acns colostate edu bh437292 lance colostate edu writes terrorist camp israelis like view villages small communities kids playing soccer streets , women preparing lunch , men playing cards , etc young men , usually aged 17 30 years members lebanese resistance even inhabitants village know , secretive , people often suspect young men supported financially iran time sneak arms ammunitions occupied zone set booby traps israeli patrols every time israeli soldier killed injured traps , israel retalliates indiscriminately bombing villages choosing often killing innocent civilians tried true method utilized guerilla terrorists groups conduct operations midst local populace , thus forcing opposing state possible harm innocent civilians search , order avoid deaths civilians , abandon search certainly people use population cover also dragging innocent civilians harm 's way suggesting , guerillas use population cover , israel totally back \? easiest way get away attacking another use innocent shield hope respects innocent lives \? israel insists called security zone necessary protection northern israel , pay price occupation blood soldiers damn right israel insists sort buffer zone put many years attacks territory arab states watched states nothing exactly israel decided way stop actions israel interested peace , withdraw land \? whole bit attacks israel neighboring arab states start \? also hope happen , occur arab states show prepared take responsibility duty stop guerilla attacks israel soil prove \( provide guaratees \) , way israel going accept word past attitude tolerance towards anti israel guerillas residence written newsgroup , real solution come result comprehensive peace settlement whereby israel withdraws borders peace keeping troops stationed along border insure one either side border shelled good lord , brad world idea un troops stop anything \? stationed country country allows ask leave time nasser '56 '67 somehow , limitation troops powers n't think israel going comfortable without genuine commitment peace arab states , concrete \( intellectual political exercises jargon \) guarantees parties , un worthless israel \( , perhaps useful \? \) realistic solution , time israel realize concept buffer zone aimed protecting northern cities failed fact caused much israeli deaths occasional shelling northern israel would resulted perhaps aware , communities people , feeling better many us die fighting attack us die silently accept fate , however , call israel see sense suffering fewer casualties , suggest apply palestinian , arab islamic groups israel really wants save israeli lives would withdraw unilaterally called security zone conclusion peace talks move would save israeli lives , advance peace efforts , give israel great moral lift , better israel 's public image abroad give edge peace negociations since israel rightly claim genuinely interested peace already offered important concessions along withdrawal israel could demand hizbollah disarmed lebanese government warn accept attacks northern cities shelling occurs consider taking buffer zone hold lebanese syrian government responsible israel 's perspective , concessions gets nothing except realization given something hope side decides likewise words taken back merely take back tangible items \( land , control land \) requires sort action say israel stay away israel put attacks arab state territories decades essentially putting stop invasion lebanon entire basis reality exactly state 1 \) israel would express outrage attacks protest arab state involved , 2 \) state promptly ignored entire matter , secure knowledge could held responsible acts committed private groups , 3 \) israel would prepare next round attacks would israel want return days \( n't idiotic suggest trust motivations present day arab states \) \? seems little incentive syrian lebanese allow hizbollah bomb israel proper circumstances , ah , ok different present situation tells us arab states pursue past antagonistic policies towards israel \? , n't talk vague political factors tangible \( like israel gave \) factors guarantee responsibility states assessment difference based whole lot assumptions , states n't feel confortable basing existence sort thing lebanese government proven capable controlling disarming militias parts lebanon basil without support , active involvement , syria , lebanon would able accomplish occurred syria leaves say lebanon able retain control \? syria stays thay may even dangerous israel tim view entire matter far serenely one sided selectively naive
shaig composer think com \( shai guday \) subject go hezbollah ! organization thinking machines corporation , cambridge , usa lines 78 apr15 175334 72079 yuma acns colostate edu nntp posting host composer think com reply bh437292 longs lance colostate edu 's message thu , 15 apr 1993 17 53 34 gmt article apr15 175334 72079 yuma acns colostate edu bh437292 longs lance colostate edu \( basil hamdan \) writes snip first place death three soldiers patrol occupied lebanese act terrorism murder compare death athletes munich act terrorism exercise aimed solely diverting issue far truth agree death three soldiers patrol etc terrorism said , lets continue snip imagine \? \? \? \? terrorist camp israelis like view villages small communities kids playing soccer streets , women preparing lunch , men playing cards , etc would argue even villages terrorist camps however come close serving purpose say function way prior invasion young men , usually aged 17 30 years members lebanese resistance even inhabitants village know , secretive , people often suspect young men supported financially iran time sneak arms ammunitions occupied zone set booby traps israeli patrols every time israeli soldier killed injured traps , israel retalliates indiscriminately bombing villages choosing often killing innocent civilians back announce bombed terrorist 8 year old girl happened villages , might well among , describe large number groups area , backed various organizations , wide range purposes hizbollah amal two larger ones may still retaliation , mistakes may made , still far cry indiscriminate bombing , would produced major casualties israel 's policy cold hearted , reality come accept deal , lebanese resistance hand going stop attacks occupying israeli soldiers withdraw , real leverage force israel withdraw well , disagree think israel would willingly withdraw lebanese gov't able field reliable force area police prevent attacks realistic solution , time israel realize concept buffer zone aimed protecting northern cities failed fact caused much israeli deaths occasional shelling northern israel would resulted actually clear agree death toll longer civilian primarily military though seems little incentive syrian lebanese allow hizbollah bomb israel proper circumstances , lebanese government proven capable controlling disarming militias parts lebanon , syrian gov't happy israel sink another lebanese morass could elaborate necessary agree , case soldiers killing cannot qualified murder , matter say , regretable , whole situation shai guday stealth bombers , os software engineer thinking machines corp winged ninjas skies cambridge ,
bradski retina bu edu \( gary bradski \) subject go hezbollah ! ! 1993apr14 src honeywell com cjo news cso uiuc edu 1993apr15 src honeywell com organization boston university center adaptive systems lines 32 reply amehdi src honeywell com 's message 15 apr 93 03 13 49 gmt 15 apr 93 03 13 49 gmt , amehdi src honeywell com \( hossien amehdi \) said article 1993apr15 src honeywell com amehdi src honeywell com \( hossien amehdi \) writes arabs since replying article assuming arab well , i'm arab , think brain full shit really believe said bombardment civilian none civilian areas lebanon israel consistent policy intimidation policy practiced called democracy middle east ! merley pointing side also suffering like said , i'm arab , say lebanese , bet would defende homeland invader means syrians \? iranian agents \? israeli invaders \? gary bradski bradski park bu edu cognitive neural systems boston university v v 111 st , boston 02215 617 353 6426 n't even agree opinions die !
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject sickening think armenians capable reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 329 article 1993apr9 sol ctr columbia edu halsall murray fordham edu \( paul halsall \) writes 's curious serdar spend time attacking greeks armenians happen historical opponents turkey , x soviet armenian government got away genocide 2 5 million turkish men , women children enjoying fruits genocide blind \? problem , everybody arab , greek , , serb , russian , tartar , , persian , kurd , opponent kurds 'r' us armenians 'r' ally \? historic circumstance seems taken certain toll serdar perhaps posting alt raving nationalist rather soc history \? excuse \? closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape tartars proceeded work extermination troops surrounded village village little resistance offered artillery knocked huts heaps stone dust villages became untenable inhabitants fled fields , bullets bayonets completed work tartars escaped course found refuge mountains succeeded crossing border turkey rest killed whole length borderland russian armenia nakhitchevan akhalkalaki hot plains ararat cold mountain plateau north dotted mute mournful ruins tartar villages quiet , villages , except howling wolves jackals visit paw scattered bones dead ohanus appressian men like p 202 genocide deliberate organized massacre people attempt exterminate race worst crime history happened turks eastern anatolia armenian dictatorship 2 5 million turks kurds killed worst ways imaginable sickening think human race capable actions , denying fact armenian genocide 2 5 million muslims happened people turkiye deeply sympathize whose relatives killed turkish genocide understand anger still deny turkish genocide indeed took place , despite fact genocide 2 5 million turks well documented past six decades cannot reverse events past , must strive keep memory tragedy alive side atlantic , help prevent recurrence extermination people religion race source bristol papers , general correspondence container 32 bristol bradley letter september 14 , 1920 absolute first hand information armenians caucasus attacked tartar \( turkish \) villages utterly defenseless bombarded villages artillery murder inhabitants , pillage village often burn village lets get somethings straight \? 1 armenians angels , subject turkish genocide germans subject jewish genocide \? real \? tell , high asala sdpa arf forgeries fabrications wrote \? non existent list scholars mine first world war ensuing years 1914 1920 , armenian dictatorship premeditated systematic genocide , tried complete centuries old policy annihilation turks kurds savagely murdering 2 5 million muslims deporting rest 1 , 000 year homeland attempt genocide justly regarded first instance genocide 20th century acted upon entire people event incontrovertibly proven historians , government international political leaders , u ambassador mark bristol , william langer , ambassador layard , james barton , stanford shaw , arthur chester , john dewey , robert dunn , papazian , nalbandian , ohanus appressian , jorge blanco villalta , general nikolayef , general bolkovitinof , general prjevalski , general odiselidze , meguerditche , kazimir , motayef , twerdokhlebof , general hamelin , rawlinson , avetis aharonian , dr stephan eshnanie , varandian , general bronsart , arfa , dr hamlin , boghos nubar , sarkis atamian , katchaznouni , rachel bortnick , halide edip , mccarthy , w b allen , paul muratoff many others j c hurewitz , professor government emeritus , former director middle east institute \( 1971 1984 \) , columbia university bernard lewis , cleveland e dodge professor near eastern history , princeton university halil inalcik , university professor ottoman history member american academy arts sciences , university chicago peter golden , professor history , rutgers university , newark stanford shaw , professor history , university california los angeles thomas naff , professor history director , middle east research institute , university pennsylvania ronald jennings , associate professor history asian studies , university illinois howard reed , professor history , university connecticut dankwart rustow , distinguished university professor political science , city university graduate school , new york john woods , associate professor middle eastern history , university chicago john masson smith , jr , professor history , university california berkeley alan fisher , professor history , michigan state university avigdor levy , professor history , brandeis university andreas g e bodrogligetti , professor history , university california los angeles kathleen burrill , associate professor turkish studies , columbia university roderic davison , professor history , george washington university walter denny , professor history , university massachusetts caesar farah , professor history , university minnesota tom goodrich , professor history , indiana university pennsylvania tibor halasi kun , professor emeritus turkish studies , columbia university justin mccarthy , professor history , university louisville jon mandaville , professor history , portland state university \( oregon \) robert olson , professor history , university kentucky madeline zilfi , professor history , university maryland james stewart robinson , professor turkish studies , university michigan list goes wait , mark alan epstein , 'the ottoman jewish communities role fifteenth sixteenth centuries , ' klaus schwarz , freiburg \( 1980 \) page 19 fifteenth century , ottomans struggling reestablish balkans , considerable turmoil among jewish communities central western europe even difficulties darker centuries immediately preceding fourteenth minimized , easy understand attraction ottoman life , particularly compared life europe , held jews way tell many jews left christendom realm rising muslim ottomans , account persecution expulsion christian countries recorded jews fled ottoman territory regularity reports suggests ottomans considered reasonably tolerant protectors regular trickle jewish families moving western central europe \( \) evident effects plague , late crusades , general intolerance persecution jews christian europe resulted redirection whole focus jewish life , two centuries , oriented toward muslim east page 21 second quarter fifteenth century foremost official edirne jewish community rabbi yitzhak ashkenazi chief rabbi city important rabbi city author important letter tells us something situation edirne jewry fifteenth century christian europe supposedly wrote letter two recent arrivals , , upon seeing prosperity freedom ottoman jews , prevailed upon write european situation urging remarkable letter advised recipients pleasant conditions ottoman domains , described well ease travel palestine holy places , attraction would make pilgrimage choose buried \( \) page 41 impression gained hebrew sources jews firmly aware community interests existed ottomans , especially comparison relations christians europe confirmation interests muslims jews also indicated fact european christians perceived jews allies islam well aware muslim jewish cooperation certainly activity important jewish politicians representing ottoman government abroad pass unnoticed european sources basis much knowledge careers addition appears christian pirates plundered jews , '' sworn enemies , europeans considered jews agents regularly reported ottomans well known examples overt jewish support ottomans struggle european powers two best known instances jewish support campaigning ottomans frequently cited instances jewish contributions , early sixteenth century , rhodes also reports sympathy ottomans siege unpublished ottoman document shows dramatically mutual interests existed greek towns page 43 clear throughout sixteenth century generally accepted fact interests jews muslims coincided frequently , parties involved , jews , muslims , christians , aware situation page 46 seems relations greeks jews particularly two groups little common , common interests , perceived common philosophical religious tradition could serve basis cooperation , rather enmity identifiable bond good existed religious communities fifteenth sixteenth centuries , muslims jews , neither much common orthodox page 46 general impression muslim jewish relations ottoman context fifteenth sixteenth centuries one community interests earliest times ottomans seem welcomed jews territory found communities already existing places conquered cooperative element jewish response tolerance steady flow jews christian countries ottoman domains page 151 period 1453 indications ottoman jewish relationship well course would characterize years afterward , ottomans , contrast intolerance , protection security ottomans offered , comparison conditions elsewhere , leave little even ottomans jews recognized mutual interests page 161 impossible say fundamental jews success ottomans rebuilding istanbul ottoman success sixteenth century played important role cannot also unclear whether important enough say ottomans would experienced great success without jews group could found serve ottomans well jews , however , clear parallels world history remarkable partnership jews non jewish society lived must conclude ottomans could probably achieved success without group performing certain tasks well jews certainly jews fifteenth sixteenth centuries ottoman empire remarkable home \( \) version rabbi 's letter given prof shaw page 32 cries reached us told troubles persecutions suffer german lands hear brethren barbarous cruel nation ruthlessly faithful children chosen people priests rome risen wish root memory jacob erase name israel always devise new persecutions wish bring stake listen brethren , counsel give born germany studied torah german rabbis driven native country came turkish land , blessed god filled good things found rest happiness turkey also become land peace live germany knew even tenth god blessed us land , would consider difficulties would set come us land turks nothing complain possess great fortunes much gold silver hands oppressed heavy taxes , commerce free rich fruits earth everything cheap , every one us lives peace freedom jew compelled wear yellow hat badge shame , case germany , even wealth great fortune curse jew jealousy among christians devise kinds slander rob gold arise brethren , , collect forces , come us free enemies , find rest 13 13 israel , history jewish literature vol v jewish center culture ottoman empire \( hebrew union college press , publishers , new york , 1974 \) serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject armenian architect genocide 2 5 million muslim people reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 55 article 1993apr15 husc3 harvard edu germain harvard edu \( mikhail \) writes personal problem romanian culture aware one anecdote armenians necessarily imply low cultural level image conscious armenians sorely feel missing glory background armenians never achieved statehood independence , always subservient , engaged undermining schemes rulers committed genocide muslim populations eastern anatolia armenian dictatorship world war fully participated extermination european jewry world war ii , genocide , back stabbing , hallmarks armenian history episodes armenians engaged history suit whims zeal tried cover cold blooded genocide 2 5 million turks kurds world war , n't pull nations hat source walker , christopher armenia survival nation new york \( st martin 's press \) , 1980 generally pro armenian work contains following information direct relevance nazi holocaust \) dro \( butcher \) , former dictator armenian dictatorship architect genocide 2 5 million turks kurds , respected nazi armenian leaders , established armenian provisional republic berlin world war ii b \) government' fully endorsed espoused social theories nazis , declared armenians members aryan race ' c \) published anti semitic , racist journal , thereby aligning nazis efforts exterminate jews , \) armenian army 20 , 000 members fought side side wehrmacht serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject museum reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 215 article acsu buffalo edu ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( \) writes cyprus \? \? majority population christian , fellow turkish friends still 'good' job cleaning area christians article reflects abundant ignorance people turkiye know quite well greece greek cypriots never abandon idea hellenizing cyprus remain eternally hopeful greece , someday , whatever cost parties involved history speaks greece sole perpetrator invasion island sent troops july 15 , 1974 attempt legitimate government makarios following greek cypriot attempt annex island greece aid greek army , turkiye intervened using legal right given two international agreements turkiye frequently conveniently forgotten people island , turkish cypriots turkish cypriots whose grandparents living island since 1571 release nikos sampson , member eoka national organization cypriot fighters convicted terrorist , shows mentality continues survive greece one forget sampson dedicated life turks cyprus , committed murder achieve goal , tried destroy island 's independence annexing greece course , greek governments bear consequences irresponsible conduct museum barbarism 2 irfan bey street , kumsal area , nicosia , cyprus house dr nihat ilhan , major serving cyprus turkish army contingent attacks launched turks greeks , 20th december 1963 , dr nihat ilhan 's wife three children ruthlessly brutally killed bathroom , tried hide , savage greeks dr nihat ilhan happened duty night , 24th december 1963 pictures reflecting greek atrocities committed 1963 exhibited house converted museum eye witness account turkish family butchered greek terrorists date 24th december , 1963 onslaught greeks turks , started three days ago , going defenseless women , old men children brutally killed greeks kumsal area nicosia witnesses worst example greeks savage bloodshed wife three infant children dr nihat ilhan , major duty camp cyprus turkish army contingent , mercilessly dastardly shot dead hiding bathroom house , greeks broke home glaring example greek barbarism let us listen relating said incident told mr hasan yusuf , eye witness , wounded terrible event night 24th december , 1963 wife hasan paying visit family major dr nihat ilhan neighbours mrs ayshe mora , daughter mrs ayshe 's sister novber also us sitting supper sudden bullets river direction started riddle house , sounding like heavy rain thinking dining room sitting dangerous , ran bathroom toilet thought would safer altogether nine persons hid bathroom except wife took refuge toilet waited fear mrs ilhan wife major doctor , standing bath three children murat , hakan arms suddenly great noise heard front door open greeks come combing , every corner house machine gun bullets moments heard voices saying , greek , want eh ! bullets started flying bathroom mrs ilhan three children fell bath shot moment greeks , broke bathroom , emptied guns us heard one major 's children moan , came 2 3 hours later , saw mrs ilhan three children lying dead bath rest neighbours bathroom seriously wounded happened wife \? remembered immediately ran toilet , , doorway , saw body brutally murdered street sound shots heard voices crying help , help one save us \? became terrified thought greeks came found dead would kill ran bedroom hid double bed passed distance could still hear shots mouth dry , came bed drank water put sweets pocket went back bathroom , exactly left hour ago offered sweets mrs ayshe , daughter mrs novber wounded waited bathroom 5 o'clock morning thought morning would never come wounded needed taken hospital finally , could walk , mrs novber , went street hoping find help , walked far , met people took us hospital operated regained consciousness said wounded house went brought mrs ayshe daughter staying three days hospital sent plane ankara treatment four months treatment still cannot use arm return cyprus , greeks arrested airport related told greeks detention released foot devastated turkish quarter went tonight sealed turkish quarter nicosia 200 300 people slaughtered last five days first western reporters , saw terrible kumsal quarter 2 , irfan bey , made way house whose floors covered broken glass child 's bicycle lay corner bathroom , looking like group waxworks , three children piled top murdered mother room next body woman shot head , told , home turkish army major whose family killed mob first violence today five days later , still lay rene daniel , \( daily express \) saw bathroom bodies mother three infant children murdered father turkish officer max , le figaro 25 26 january , 1964 peter moorhead reporting village , cyprus date 1 january , 1964 il \( italy \) turk hunting , want exterminate discussions start london cyprus terror continues right witnessing exodus turks villages thousands people abandoning homes , land , herds greek cypriot terrorism relentless time , rhetoric bust plato suffice cover barbaric ferocious behaviors article , correspondent il date 14 january 1964 daily herald \( london \) appalling sight came across turkish homes appalling sight apart walls , exist doubt napalm bomb attack could created devastation counted 40 brick concrete shells homes house deliberately fired petrol red tile roofs , found twisted mass bed springs , children 's , ankle deep grey ashes chairs , tables neighbouring village , mile away , counted 16 wrecked burned homes turkish cypriot homes village 100 turkish cypriots also vanished neither village find scrap damage greek cypriot house daily telegraph \( london \) graves 12 shot turkish cypriots found cyprus village silent crowds gathered tonight outside red crescent hospital turkish sector nicosia , bodies 9 turkish cypriots found crudely buried outside village , 13 miles away , brought hospital escort parachute regiment three bodies , including one woman , discovered nearby could removed turkish cypriots guarded still trying locate bodies 20 believed buried site serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject historical traditional armenian barbarism fascism reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 28 source men like leonard ramsden hartill bobbs merrill company , indianapolis \( 1926 \) \( 305 pages \) \( memoirs armenian officer participated genocide 2 5 million muslim people \) p 204 \( first paragraph \) soon asleep night awakened persistent crying child arose went investigate full moon enabled make way revealed wreck litter tragedy enacted guided child 's crying , entered yard house , judged appearance must home turkish family corner yard found women dead throat cut lying breast small child , girl year old serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject muslims one one cruelly bayonetted death armenians reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 93 article 1993apr15 news columbia edu cc columbia edu \( charles \) writes dare presume even right go around newsgroup desire convince others external position news exceptions much topic day historical evidence proves period 1914 1920 , armenian government ordered , incited , assisted participated genocide 2 5 million muslim people race , religion national origin armenians perpetrated acts sabotage , destroyed telephone cables , blew bridges , blocked passes , set , attacked security stations small turkish outposts behind ottoman army lines one hand , ruthlessly attacked turkish kurdish villages , slaughtering turkish population indiscriminately , women , children , old young alike innocent muslims one one cruelly bayonetted death , massacred axes swords , else shut mosques schools burnt alive seen widespread armenian massacres innocent muslims took place regions van , kars , sivas , erzurum , bitlis , erzincan , mus , diyarbakir ottoman army , fighting prevent russian invasion , also deal armenian genocide squads cowardly hit behind armenian genocide muslims spread parts eastern anatolia starting late 1914 , armenians committed widespread massacres genocide eastern anatolia , arena left armenians almost every turkish town village erzincan suffered large scale massacres genocide armenians turkish genocide documented armenian , russian , american , british , ottoman , german , austrian french journalists officers observed first genocide century committed blood thirsty armenian genocide squads ottoman army , liberating trabzon , , erzincan , erzurum , kars regions russians , saw cities villages destroyed burnt , people slaughtered , massacred massacres conducted armenians , became black stain humanity , shocked disgusted even russian , british , german , austrian , french american authorities almost every ottoman document related armenian massacres cruelties inhuman treatment , cruelties , atrocities , genocide armenian genocide squads perpetrated innocent moslem turkish kurdish people , sufficiently reflected historical documents even today seventy five years later , terrifying screams victims cruelties heard source documents volume \( 1919 \) document 76 , archive 1 2 , cabin 109 , drawer 3 , file 346 , section 427 \( \) , contents 3 , 52 53 \( lt colonel , general headquarters , second section , istanbul dr stephan eshnanie \) wiener vienna , berlin , amsterdam , istanbul closely following two weeks withdrawal russians armenians turkish territories armenia although two months elapsed since clearing territories armenian gangs , observing evidence cruelties armenians almost every step villages trabzon erzincan erzincan erzurum destroyed corpses turks brutally cruelly slain everywhere according accounts able save lives escaping mountains , first horrible fearful events begun russian forces evacuated places taken armenian gangs russians usually treated people well , people feared intervention armenians places taken armenians , however , massacres begun clearly announced intention clearing called armenian kurdish land turks thus , solve nationality problem today opportunity meet austrian german soldiers escaped russian prison camps come kars alexander paul \( \) russian officers tried save turks clashes russian officers armenian gangs erzurum , see terrible almost whole city destroyed smell corpses still fills air although speculations armenian gangs murdered austrian german prisoners well , could get supporting evidence regard , proof murdering turkish prisoners war dr stephan eshnanie serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
oz ursa sis yorku ca \( \) subject turkish government agents usenet lie teeth ! reply dbd urartu sdpa org 's message thu , 15 apr 1993 20 45 12 gmt organization york u student information systems project lines 15 davidian babble turkish government feels funnel state ultra nationalism existing turkey today onto usenet convince people via revisionist , myopic , incidental view place world turkish government usenet \? long going keep repeating utterly idiotic increasingly drivel \? oz life people sea , look shore cannot know depths armenian proverb
dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) subject turkey admits sending arms azerbaijan turkish pilot caught summary oh , yes neutral turkey organization p center regional studies lines 57 4 15 93 turkey sends light weapons aid azerbaijan ankara , turkey \( upi \) turkey arming azerbaijan light weapons help fight armenian forces struggle nagorno karabakh enclave , newspaper said thursday deputy prime minister told reporters ankara turkey responding positively request azerbaijan assistance giving positive response requests azerbaijan , within limits capabilities , said foreign ministry spokesman declined elaborate nature aid sent azerbaijan , said within framework council security cooperation europe , published istanbul , said turkey sending light weapons azerbaijan , including rockets , rocket launchers ammunition ankara began sending hardware visit turkey last week high ranking azerbaijani official turkey however ruled , second time one week , would intervene militarily azerbaijan wednesday , told reporters ankara would allow azerbaijan suffer defeat hands armenians feel bound help azerbaijan , position right tell form \( \) help may take future , said said turkish aid azerbaijan continuing , whole world knows prime minister suleyman demirel reiterated turkey would get militarily involved conflict foreign policy decisions could based street level excitement , said immediate reaction ankara regional reports , based armenian sources yerevan , saying turkish pilots officers captured shot flying azerbaijani helicopters newspaper said turkish troops digging along border armenia , military sources denied reports based claims local people gunfire heard along border military action occurred , sources said latest fighting armenians azerbaijanis flared early month armenian forces seized town kelbajar later positioned outside fizuli , near iranian border david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org explain turkish troops p center regional studies armenian border , ca n't p box 382761 even explain 1915 \? cambridge , 02238 turkish mp , march 1992
dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) subject public service translation 2 summary call action keywords effective greek armenian postings organization p center regional studies lines 61 subject article 1993apr13 freenet carleton ca aa624 freenet carleton ca \( suat kiniklioglu \) k kubilay kultigin continues kk kk kk \( siyasi \) kk kk bu , talk politics mideast talk politics kk dan ermeni kk bu karabag kk kk kk kk kk , isi var bir kk bos kk de var kk kk hep , kk kk , kk kubilay kultigin kk en translation , public service subject announcement patriots net friends net \( regardless wherever stand political spectrum \) recent days armenian greek postings usual number effectiveness written net talk politics mideast talk politics soviet writings concentrate subjects karabagh , cyprus bosnia due fact , quite useful us active feel reluctant respond yes , everybody occupation busy period academic year however , must responsibilty leave forum empty watch interests country ideological level hope building together modern powerful turkey regards , kubilay kultigin love fatherland strongest winds cleansing filth souls david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org explain turkish troops p center regional studies armenian border , ca n't p box 382761 even explain 1915 \? cambridge , 02238 turkish mp , march 1992
tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) subject conventional israel palestinians nntp posting host orion oac uci edu organization university california , irvine lines 117 article news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) writes latest israeli proposal , first proposed february 1992 , contains following assumptions concerning nature interim status refering wb gaza , palestinians , implemented negotiations states israel remain existing source authority final status agreed upon israel delegation power organs interim self government arrangements \( isga \) isga apply palestinian inhabitants territories israeli military administration arrangements territorial application , apply israeli population territories palestinian inhabitants jerusalem residual powers delegated isga reserved israel israelis continue live settle israel alone responsibility security aspects external , internal maintenance public order organs isga administrative functional nature exercise powers isga subject cooperation coordination israel israel negotiate delegation powers responsibilities areas administration , justice , personnel , agriculture , education , business , tourism , labor social welfare , local police , local transportation communications , municipal affairs religious affairs palestinian march 1992 establishment palestinian interim self governing authority \( pisga \) whose authority vested palestinian people \( pisga \) powers cannot delegated israel interim phase israeli military government civil abolished , pisga powers previous ly enjoyed israel limitations \( pisga \) powers responsibilities except derive character interim arrangement time pisga , israeli armed forces completed withdrawal agreed points along borders occupied palestinian territory \( opt \) opt includes jerusalem jurisdiction pisga shall extend opt , including land , water air space pisga shall legislative powers enact , amend laws wield executive power foreign control shall determine nature cooperation state international body , shall empowered conclude binding agreements free control israel pisga shall administer justice throughout opt sole exclusive strong police force responsible security public order opt request assistance un peacekeeping force disputes israel self governing arrangements settled committee composed representatives five permanent members un security council , secretary general \( un \) , pisga , jordan , egypt , syria israel perhaps bargaining attitude behind different visions interim stage wrong \? two reasons 1 \) present palestinian israeli leadership moderate likely exist many years , present opportunity may last significant period , 2 \) since negotiations designed , even attempting , resolve conflict , attention issues dealing desired final status mis placed potentially destructive given , proposals \( either side \) altered temper approaches stated \? israeli worries , desire interim control , addressed providing real interim palestinian self governing entity \? tim april 13 , 1993 response al moore \( lmsc5 lmsc lockheed com \) basically problem israel may remain , leave , occupied territories cannot , cannot neither far , continues propose remain palestinians propose leave either change view \? worth pointing area compromise views seems require reduction israeli presence israel proposes reduction fact may said negotiating tim seem two perceptions addressed first israel , little trust arab groups , little support israel giving tangible assets exchange pieces paper , expectations , hopes , etc second arab world palestinians , demand tangible concessions made israel without receiving anything tangible back given , gap two stances seems need israel receiving tangible returns expected concessions tangible meant something 1 \) provides israel comparable protection \( land give \) , 2 \) way ensures arab states palestine accountable held actively \( \) responsible upholding actions territory \( citizens visitors \) essence believe israel objections palestinian statehood would anywhere near strong israel assured new palestinian state would committed co existing israel held responsible attacks israel territory aside rather slanted proposals , could guarantees \? example , could guarantees controls added palestinian pisga proposals \? israel hanging largely scared stiff minute lets go \( gives lands back arab states , buffer zone , gives full autonomy palestinians \) , arab parties could \( would , controlled somehow \) easily return traditional anti israel position question really ensure happen tim
hasan mcrcim mcgill edu subject water brain \( israeli expansion lust \) originator hasan lightning mcrcim mcgill edu nntp posting host lightning mcrcim mcgill edu organization mcgill research centre intelligent machines lines 15 article 1993apr15 nysernet org , astein nysernet org \( alan stein \) writes guess hasan finally revealed source claim israel diverted water lebanon imagination alan h stein astein israel nysernet org mr water head , never said israel diverted lebanese rivers , fact said israel went southern lebanon make sure water used lebanese side , water would run jordan river israel use ! head hasan
backon vms huji ac il subject go hezbollah ! ! distribution world organization hebrew university jerusalem lines 23 article 1993apr14 ncsu edu , hernlem chess ncsu edu \( brad hernlem \) writes lebanese resistance forces detonated bomb israeli occupation patrol lebanese territory two days ago three soldiers killed two wounded retaliation , israeli israeli backed forces wounded 8 civilians bombarding several lebanese villages ironically , israeli government justifies occupation lebanon claiming necessary prevent bombardments israeli villages ! ! congratulations brave men lebanese resistance ! every israeli son place grave underlining moral bankruptcy israel 's occupation drawing attention israeli government 's policy reckless disregard civilian life brad hernlem \( hernlem chess ncsu edu \) i'm sure federal bureau investigation \( fbi gov internet \) going love reading incitement murder josh backon vms huji ac il
bf3833 pyuxe cc bellcore com \( feigenbaum , benjamin \) subject clinton 's views jerusalem organization bellcore , livingston , nj lines 15 recently read bill clinton 's campaign , stated elected would immediately recognize jerusalem israel 's capital according article , mr clinton reaffirmed winning presidency however , recent talks president mubarak , secretary state christopher stated status jerusalem final matter discussion parties n't want start big discussion status jerusalem want know anyone authenticate mr clinton 's statements dates , places , etc thank ben
farzin ntt jp \( farzin mokhtarian \) subject news briefs kh 1026 originator sehari iastate edu organization ntt corp japan lines 31 1026 dr namaki , deputy minister health stated infant mortality \( one year old \) iran went 120 per thousand revolution 33 per thousand end 1371 \( last month \) dr namaki also stated revolution children received protect various deseases figure reached end 1371 dr , minister health mentioned population growth rate iran end 1371 went 2 7 visit mohammad , prime minister malaysia , iran , agreements cooperation areas industry , trade , education tourism signed according one agreement , iran charge building malaysia 's natural gas network farzin mokhtarian
mau herky cs uiowa edu \( mau napoleon \) subject turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece \( armenia azeris \) nntp posting host herky cs uiowa edu organization university iowa , iowa city , ia , usa lines 16 article lynx unm edu , osinski chtm eece unm edu \( marek osinski \) well , take long see consequent greeks requesting thessaloniki called solun bulgarian netters , napoleon , write konstantinople istanbul \? marek osinski thessaloniki called thessaloniki inhabitants last 2300 years city never called solun inhabitants called konstantinoupolis 320 ad 1920s 's 1600 years many people alive today born city called konstantinoupolis many people know born city called solun napoleon
eshneken ux4 cso uiuc edu \( edward shnekendorf \) subject us consider yigal arens dangerous humanity organization university illinois urbana lines 48 anwar cs cmu edu \( anwar mohammed \) writes article 4815 bimacs bitnet ehrlich bimacs bitnet \( gideon ehrlich \) writes readers forum seemed interested contents files nice yigal tell us 1 american authorities consider yigal arens dangerous \? adl authorities seem view lot people dangerous , including millions americans arab ancestry perhaps answer question adl maintained files spied adc members california \( elsewhere \? \? \) \? friendly rivalry perhaps \? come ! arabs sympathetic palestinian war israel adl monitors arab organizations reason us monitored communist organizations soviet nationals years ago perhaps yigal greenpeace member \? naacp \? reporter \? member dozens political organizations ethnic minorities adl spied groups , past , associated part anti israel activity propoganda adl simply monitoring anything comes , wo n't caught surprise 2 adl interest person \? paranoia \? , world trade center bombings n't happen israel \( aside fact world trade center \) people like isa \( palestinian whose american group planned bow israeli embassy kill many jews \) caught mordechai levy said , paranoid jews live longer 3 one trust either us government adl additional information send \? names half posters forum , unless already probably gideon ehrlich anwar ed
bf3833 pyuxe cc bellcore com \( feigenbaum , benjamin \) subject go hezbollah ! organization bellcore , livingston , nj summary approach lines 59 article 1993apr20 ncsu edu , hernlem chess ncsu edu \( brad hernlem \) writes article 1993apr19 unocal com , stssdxb st unocal com \( dorin baru \) writes \( brad hernlem writes well , noted cheering attack israeli patrol inside lebanese territory condemning retaliatory shelling lebanese villages israeli israeli backed forces team , see , playing fair opposing team faces spectators team 's viewing stands , speak think try find sources news goes lebanon try see propaganda priori black white hats one sure wonders idf bombard villages retaliation pin point attacks soldiers lebanon call lebanese terrorists attack justified least debatable issue issue cheering death dorin dorin , criticism post expressed p , one accept regret aspect post hope occupation end \( accompanying loss life \) believe stiff resistance help achieve end despite said p , think point losses unacceptable strategy drove u troops lebanon , least brad hernlem \( hernlem chess ncsu edu \) hi brad , two comments regarding hope occupation end belive stiff resistance etc approach , e , peace cooperation ca n't help wonder would happen violence israelis stopped hopefully , violence arabs would stop time state non violence could maintained , perhaps state cooperation could achieved , e , greater economic opportunities peoples living territories course , given current leadership israel , way may work also leadership changes , e g , someone ariel sharon 's mentality , would predict considerable loss life , e , winners secondly , regarding comment u troops responding stiff resistance analogy quite valid u troops could get neighborhood altogether israelis could 02 worth , offense intended respectfully , ben
maler vercors imag fr \( oded maler \) subject unconventional peace proposal nntp posting host organization imag , university grenoble , france lines 43 article 1483500348 igc apc org , cpr igc apc org \( center policy research \) writes center policy research cpr subject unconventional peace proposal unconventional proposal peace middle east elias davidsson 1 fund established would disburse grants child born couple one partner israeli jew palestinian arab 2 entitled grant , couple prove one partners possesses entitled israeli citizenship law return partner , although born areas current control , entitled citizenship law return 3 first child , grant amount 18 000 second third child , 12 000 child subsequent child , grant amount 6 000 child would thankful critical comments proposal well dissemination proposal meaningful discussion enrichment elias davidsson post box 1760 121 reykjavik , iceland maybe i'm bit old fashioned , heard something called love \? used play role people 's considerations getting married course know people married order get green card , making common child 18 , 000 \? power aa limited proposal indeed unconventional oded maler , lgi imag , bat , b p , grenoble , france phone fax e mail maler imag fr
uxa cso uiuc edu \( bradley e \) subject news may missed , apr 20 organization university illinois urbana lines 4 insist reposting entire original post \? n't waste bandwidth , please know picky us non jews ha ha
dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) subject lezgians azerbaijan daghestan summary asking fight armenians karabakh organization p center regional studies lines 106 04 19 1993 0000 lezghis associated press writer , azerbaijan \( ap \) 600 , 000 lezghis azerbaijan russia begun state , threatening turmoil corner caucasus region escaped ethnic warfare neighboring nagorno karabakh , , lezhgis could become next minority former soviet union fight independence lezghis , muslim descendents nomadic shepherds , angry conscription young men fight azerbaijan 's 5 year old undeclared war armenia also want unite regions azerbaijan russia , effectively one breakup soviet union created national borders lines map rally 3 , 000 lezghis march protest conscription demand separate alarmed azerbaijani government officials baku , capital , deny rumors police shot six demonstrators death government announced strict security measures began cooperating russian authorities control movement lezhgis living across border dagestan region russia visitors , center life , found town quiet soon protest children played outdoors crisp mountain air sunday bazaar , men heavy coats dark fur hats gathered discuss grievances ranging high customs duties russian border war say drafted , wo n't go , said , gold teeth sun must fight war azerbaijanis \? nothing armenia 3 , 000 people died war , centers disputed territory nagorno karabakh , 150 miles southeast malik , official mayor 's office , said 11 300 locals drafted 1992 served police n't force people go , said afraid uprising could backed lezghis dagestan men agreed police fired demonstrators , disagreed protest came said occurred spontaneously rumors spread azerbaijan draft 1 , 500 men region , 75 , 000 lezghis live others said rally ordered gen , leader underground movement , sadval , based dagestan organized demonstration families came us draft orders , said , mathematics teacher belongs sadval hope peacefully , approaching everyone azerbaijanis , russians early 18th century , lezhgis formed two , , azerbaijan dagestan freely sheep green hills mountains two , areas joined czarist russia 1917 , came soviet rule disintegration soviet union , 600 , 000 lezghis faced first time strict borders half remained dagestan half newly independent azerbaijan pay customs , cars , wine , complained , small goods , laid ground bazaar , included brandy , stomach medication plastic shoes dagestan want country , said want able move easily baku wo n't listen us physically , hard outsiders distinguish lezhgis azerbaijanis many villages , live side side , working jobs degree lezhgis distinctive language , mixture arabic , turkish persian strong azerbaijan officially supports cultural preservation 10 largest ethnic minorities lezghis weekly newspapers elementary school classes language autonomy different question lezghis succeeded separating azerbaijan , would set precedent minorities , south , nearby mountains eastern azerbaijan david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org explain turkish troops p center regional studies armenian border , ca n't p box 382761 even explain 1915 \? cambridge , 02238 turkish mp , march 1992
osinski chtm eece unm edu \( marek osinski \) subject turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece \( armenia azeris \) organization university new mexico , albuquerque lines 12 distribution world nntp posting host chtm eece unm edu article 1993apr15 174657 6176 news uiowa edu mau herky cs uiowa edu \( mau napoleon \) writes compromise , invasion cyprus , involment turkey greek politics , refusal turkey accept 12 miles territorial waters stated international law , properties greeks konstantinople , ownership islands greek lake , sorry , aegean well , take long see consequent greeks requesting thessaloniki called solun bulgarian netters , napoleon , write konstantinople istanbul \? marek osinski
arf genesis mcs com \( jack schmidling \) subject news may missed , apr 20 organization mcsnet contributor , chicago , il lines 65 nntp posting host localhost mcs com article 1993apr19 porthos cc bellcore com bf3833 pyuxe cc bellcore com \( feigenbaum , benjamin \) writes article 456 genesis mcs com , arf genesis mcs com \( jack schmidling \) writes news may missed , apr 19 , 1993 busy israelists us media spiked intrepid israeli soldiers israeli soldiers sexually taunted arab women occupied gaza strip three week long closure sealed palestinians jewish state , palestinian sources said sunday incidents occurred town khan involved soldiers brigade centre house house raids palestinian activists closure , imposed strip occupied west bank revolted , drop israel 's best friend email let know think 75300 3115 compuserve com \( via compuserve \) clintonpz aol com \( via america online \) clinton hq campaign92 org \( via mci mail \) tell 'em arf sent ya tired learning american foreign policy effectively , israeli controlled media , highly recommend checking washington report free sample copy available calling american education trust \( 800 \) 368 tell 'em arf sent js took advice ordered copy report heartily recommend pro israel types following reasons 1 excellent excrement use line bottom 's cage negative side effect bird somewhat warped view mideast 2 makes great april fool 's joke , e , give someone knows nothing middle east say april fools clearly , reacts way , must worth reading objective types wrapped hate ca n't even take time edit long posting thanks extra reposting
cpr igc apc org \( center policy research \) subject ten questions israel lines 55 nf id n cdp 1483500349 000 nf cdp uucp ! cpr apr 19 14 38 00 1993 center policy research cpr subject ten questions israel ten questions israelis would thankful live israel could help provide accurate answers following specific questions indeed provocative questions asked time people around 1 true israeli authorities n't recognize israeli nationality \? id cards , israeli citizens must carry times , identify people jews arabs , israelis \? 2 true state israel fixed borders israeli governments 1948 today refused state ultimate borders state israel \? 3 true israeli stocks nuclear weapons \? , could provide evidence \? 4 true israeli prisons number individuals tried secret identities , date trial imprisonment state secrets \? 5 true jews reside occupied territories subject different laws non jews \? 6 true jews left palestine war 1947 48 avoid war automatically allowed return , christian neighbors allowed return \? 7 true israel 's prime minister , rabin , signed order ethnical cleansing 1948 , done today bosnia herzegovina \? 8 true israeli arab citizens admitted members kibbutzim \? 9 true israeli law attempts discourage marriages jews non jews \? 10 true hotel hilton tel aviv built site muslim cemetery \? thanks , elias davidsson iceland email elias ismennt
jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) subject hamas way death organization department redundancy department lines 28 article 1993apr18 nntpd lkg dec com alaa peewee unx dec com \( alaa zeineldine \) writes tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) writes brought separate question israel 's unjustified policies practices , still unclear reaction practices reflected article tim separate question mr clock deceiving judge resistance movement context occupation alaa zeineldine plo moved lebanon became , parts lebanon , occupying power , practices common non palestinean palestinean alike simply standard operating procedures among palestineans long time fact , greatest palestineans happen get self rule possibly deny \? plo occupier , going blame \? jake livni jake bony1 bony com ten years , george bush american occupied new york replaced jimmy carter opinions employer opinions standard failed president
bc744 cleveland freenet edu \( mark ira kaufman \) subject nazi eugenic theories circulated cpr \( unconventional peace \) organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 20 nntp posting host ins cwru edu first man promotes dissolution jews intermarriage process , says bunch jews object clown even called dissolution jewish people idiot mean suggest jew objects notion like fundamentalist \? simply mean insult orthodox using word \? ' orthodox fundamentalist would desire genuine peace region pinhead davidsson ever understand shows willingness dismiss entire culture , proves thing brain boggling stupidity willingness display stupidity newsgroup please take hatred essence judaism shove ass remember pull head first
henrik quayle kpc com subject armenia says could shoot turkish planes organization none lines 49 article 1993apr20 25123 ee rochester edu , terziogl ee rochester edu \( esin terzioglu \) writes article 1993apr19 155856 8260 kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes article 1993apr17 185118 10792 ee rochester edu , terziogl ee rochester edu \( esin terzioglu \) writes article 1993apr16 195452 urartu sdpa org dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) writes 04 16 93 1045 armenia says could shoot turkish planes let translate everyone else public traslation service gets armenia getting itchy esin henrik let clearify mr turkish henrik armenia getting itchy simply letting world henrik know longer sit quiet let turks get henrik away famous tricks armenians remember turkish henrik invasion greek island cypress world simply watched esin terzioglu ignorance obvious posting esin terzioglu 1 \) cyprus independent country turkish greek inhabitants \( greek island like ignorant posting claims \) esin terzioglu 2 \) name cyprus \( english \) esin terzioglu next time read learn post aside spelling , turks want admit past mistakes \? know turkish invasion cyprus mistake bad u n anything may ask mistake \? yes , would say greeks invade cyprus \? response shooting turkish airplane armenian air space ignorant posting person country turks azeris consistantly want drag armenia karabakh conflict azerbaijan karabakhi armenians lived homeland 3000 years \( cut armenia given azeris stalin \) ones directly involved conflict defending azeri aggression agression mercy inocent people shelled mig 23 's russian aircraft last , hope u insists turkey stay karabakh crisis repeat cyprus invasion never occur
tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) subject nazi eugenic theories circulated cpr \( unconventional peace \) nntp posting host orion oac uci edu organization university california , irvine lines 15 article usenet ins cwru edu bc744 cleveland freenet edu \( mark ira kaufman \) writes first man promotes dissolution jews intermarriage process , says bunch jews object simply mean insult orthodox using word \? ' 's irritating someone mis labels us fundamentalists , n't \? sort thing may help us understand muslims rather resent put label tim
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject armenia denies historical fact turkish genocide reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 174 article news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) writes sure hope , unspeakable crimes armenians must armenian invaders burned sacked fatherland ! ! justifiable right wrongs previous years well , bit german reparations jewish survivors holocaust certainly , event goes past , reparations become less realistic convinced one could warped sense world grandparents cold exterminated armenians 1914 1920 , always participate 'the turkish genocide along millions turkish kurdish people april 23 , 1993 united states canada occasion , reiterate justice restitution turkish kurdish rights demand x soviet armenian government admit responsibility turkish kurdish genocide , render reparations muslim people , return land rightful owners recognition genocide become issue cannot delayed , imperative artificial obstacles created political manipulations removed believe time come demand united states formally recognizes turkish kurdish genocide , principles demands refuses armenian pressures contrary taxpayers united states , express vehement protest present u government policy continued , protection unqualified assistance towards x soviet armenia also demand united states return policies advocated u ambassador bristol enlightened , undertaken , human benevolent attitude towards rights muslim people resolution case territorial demands strictly aimed x soviet armenia 's article 25249 news service uci edu , blatantly lied goltz article published sunday times magazine march 1 , 1992 , guardian sunday section well , still anxiously awaiting cis commander pulls troops karabagh , reuter correspondent agdam , reported battle wednesday , azeris burying scores people died armenians town khojaly , second biggest azeri settlement area 'the world turning back 's happening dying watching , ' one shouted group journalists helen independent , 2 29 92 armenian soldiers massacre hundreds fleeing families attackers killed soldiers volunteers defending women children turned guns terrified refugees survivors later described happened 's real slaughter began , ' said , one three soldiers survive 'the armenians shot shot came started carving people bayonets knives ' 45 year old man shot back said ' walking brush opened us people falling around wife fell , child thomas goltz sunday times , 3 1 92 armenian raid leaves azeris dead fleeing 1 , 000 khojaly 's 10 , 000 people killed tuesdays attack azerbaijani television showed corpses evacuated khocaly area brian killen \( reuters \) washington times , 3 2 92 atrocity reports azerbaijan azeri officials returned seen town nine miles away brought back three dead children , backs heads blown children scalped , ' said assad , aide karabagh 's azeri governor azeri television showed pictures one truckload bodies brought azeri town agdam , faces apparently scratched knives eyes gouged brian killen \( reuters \) washington times , 3 3 92 massacre armenians reported republic armenia reiterated denials militants killed 1 , 000 azeris dozens bodies scattered area lent credence azerbaijani reports massacre \( reuters \) new york times , 3 3 92 killings nagorno karabagh , journalists area reported seeing dozens corpses , including civilians , azerbaijani officials said armenians began shooting sought recover bodies fred hiatt washington post , 3 3 92 bodies mark site karabagh massacre local truce enforced allow azerbaijanis collect dead refugees still hiding hills forest bodies ordinary people , dressed poor , ugly workers 31 saw one policeman two apparent national volunteers wearing uniform rest civilians , including eight women three small children two groups , apparently families , fallen together , children women 's arms several , including one small girl , terrible head injuries face left survivors told saw armenians shooting point blank lay ground anatol lieven times \( london \) , 3 3 92 karabagh survivors flee mountains , deputy mayor khocaly , said armenian troops surrounded town 7 pm tuesday accompanied six seven light tanks armoured carriers 'we thought would bombard village , past , retreat attacked , defence force could n't anything tanks ' survivors described fired repeatedly way mountains safety 'for two days crawled way avoid gunfire , ' said daughter killed battle khodjaly , brother son died road anatol lieven times \( london \) , 3 3 92 corpses litter hills karabagh swooped low snow covered hills nagorno karabagh saw scattered corpses apparently , refugees shot ran suddenly thump azerbaijani helicopter fired armenian anti aircraft post anatol lieven times \( london \) , 3 4 92 police western azerbaijan said recovered bodies 120 azerbaijanis killed fled armenian assault disputed enclave nagorno karabagh said blocked recovering bodies wall street journal , 3 4 92 exiting troops attacked nagorno karabagh withdrawal halted armenians blamed video footage reports khocaly paint grim picture widespread civilian deaths mutilation one woman 's feet appeared bound paul quinn judge boston globe , 3 4 92 serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject thousands armenians serving german army waffen ss reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) lines 460 article 1993apr19 1 eagle wesleyan edu kmagnacca eagle wesleyan edu writes bad fact , 1942 , nazi armenians europe established vast network pro german collaborators , extended two continents go calling kettle black , keep mind turkish government strong supporter nazi germany played vital role supplying oil allies invaded iran complaining armenian complicity nazis little good turkey played much bigger role tell , , high asala sdpa arf' wrote \? humane behavior tolerance turks legend even 500 years ago accepted tens thousands jews spain fleeing spanish inquisition , many jewish families escaping nazi armenians hitler 's nazi germany took refugee turkiye 1940 's turkish people given home , protection , freedom jews centuries , including thousands thousands second world war get life cup turkish coffee history jews islamic countries , chapters parts ii , , center jewish history , 1986 baron , w , social religious history jews , new york , columbia university press , vols iii , v , , jose , hispanic culture character sephardic jews , new york , press , 2nd corrected edition , 1982 \( original publication 1953 \) lewis , bernard , eds , christians jews ottoman empire , new york , holmes meier , 1982 , vol , central lands la turquie dan les archives des grand orient de france les , jean louis paul , eds , et dans ottoman , paris , centre national de la , 1983 inalcik , halil , turkish jewish relations ottoman empire , 1982 sharon , moshe , turkiye , , jerusalem , hebrew university , 1982 source john dewey new republic , vol 40 , nov 12 , 1928 , pp 268 9 happy minority jews christian nation protect one recalls jews took abode turkey expelled europe , especially spain , christians , lived centuries least much tranquility liberty fellow turkish subjects , exposed alike common rulers one brought , americans , foreign missionary tradition , condition jews turkey almost mathematical demonstration religious differences influence tragedy turkey combined aspirations political separation every nation world would treated one readily reaches conclusion jews turkey fortunate also stated armenians turned turkish cities russian invader boasted raised army one hundred fifty thousand men fight civil war , burned least hundred turkish villages exterminated population turkey holocaust interview stanford j shaw \( history \) , recently completed two books jews ottoman empire turkish republic , turkey holocaust turkey 's role turkish european jewry nazi persecution , 1933 45 shaw chairs undergraduate degree program near eastern studies organized program study ottoman turkish jewry affiliated g e von center near eastern studies editor come write two books turkey european turkish jews \? shaw basically , i'm ottoman historian , i'm also jewish 've spent twenty five years studying ottoman history , time went along , whenever found materials ottoman jews , collected never anything couple years ago , suddenly realized 1992 anniversary jews expelled spain coming turkey sephardic temple avenue invited give series three lectures ottoman jewry lectures greatly appreciated , became motivated undertake research develop book , jews ottoman empire turkish \) republic book quite different works jewish historians , tend look jews country viewpoint jews jewish community , rely mainly jewish sources view subject ottoman historian , approach jews ottoman empire largely point view ottoman society , using largely ottoman sources finished book sent press , came across additional documents relating turkish jews world war ii completed book , said turkey done good deal rescue jews world war ii , actually many details found batch documents foreign ministry archive relating actions taken turkish diplomats help jews holocaust late add new information book press , decided write second book conducted research , mainly archives foreign ministry ankara turkish embassy consulate paris result second book , turkey holocaust , details turkey helped rescue jews nazis exactly \? story takes place number years book presents material three parts , first deals period holocaust nazis came power germany 1933 , immediately started dismissing jews anti nazi germans universities , hospitals , scientific institutes , like turkey moment beginning process universities , saw jews , fired positions germany , good source new talent help turkish universities within three months nazis started dismissing jews , turkey arranged take many brought turkey given appointments professors turkish universities , heads scientific institutes , medical personnel hospitals 300 500 major jewish professors came turkey 1930s ernst reuter , german political scientist , spent war years teaching political science turkey world war ii , mayor berlin berlin fritz , major german jewish economist , came turkey helped establish modern school economics istanbul man named , rescued nazis turkey spent war years turkey , eventually came ucla , became professor philosophy german jewish engaged cultural activities turkey one karl ebert , leading producer berlin expelled nazis went turkey , organized turkish national theater turkish national opera company ankara , help paul first section book covers first phase , jews persecuted germany rescued turkey oddly enough , german , turkey , seem think badly germany regarded germans jews , join anti nazi activities local turkish jewish community even found letters nazi representatives turkey german jewish refugees work promoting idea german culture even though people persecuted nazis rescued turks , shared feelings aryan racial superiority turks second part book deals holocaust , began 1940 nazis occupied france europe time , especially france , 20 , 000 turkish jews migrated europe various reasons turn century onward settled europe turkish war independence world war , greece threatening overrun turkey greeks persecuted jews throughout nineteenth century , jews feared might happen greeks took turkey many jews fled france 1920s 1930s many also abandoned turkish citizenship became french citizens suddenly nazis invaded france 1940 started introducing sorts anti jewish laws turkish jews soon found worth much french jew , worth lot turkish jew \? turkey remained neutral world war ii retained embassies nazi occupied countries finally entered war side allies end 1944 war , therefore , turkey position defend citizens anti jewish measures , actions turkish diplomats took form second chapter book turkish diplomats stationed france particular intervened protect jews turkish citizenship nazis turkish jews retained turkish citizenship , generally problem arrested sent concentration camp , turkish diplomats would communicate commanders camp officials say effect people turkish citizens ca n't turkish jews would released businesses confiscated , turkish diplomats would protest businesses would restored nazis general wanted keep friendship turkey hoped able use turkey gateway invasion middle east , also wanted obtain chromium turkey order keep turkish friendship , usually accepted interventions behalf turkish jews turkish diplomats sometimes went concentration camps secure release turkish jews times even trains hauling turkish jews auschwitz extermination succeeded getting train foreign jews sent concentration camp place called paris , 's intercession turkish consuls took place greater problem came turkish jews abandoned turkish citizenship become french citizens consuls could n't declare people turkish citizens book includes photographs jews lining front turkish consulate , either get passports return turkey get restoration turkish citizenship bureaucratic matter , processing application would take time meantime real emergency , nazis would arrest jews streets almost nothing nazis would even arrest radios telephones apartments , radios telephones forbidden jews take care former turkish jews , turkish diplomats invented document called , irregular fellow citizen document said effect person former turkish citizen applied restoration turkish citizenship meantime would appreciate would treat turkish citizen diplomats wrote document turkish put seals since nazis could read turkish , whole accepted papers certificates citizenship means , turkish diplomats able rescue many jews turkish citizenship actually nazis two minds turkish defense jews one hand nazi foreign ministry , wanted retain friendship turkey , favor accepting interventions hand , himmler eichmann wanted jews exterminated times himmler eichmann able prevail turkish jews sent auschwitz turkish consuls could anything statistics many turkish jews rescued \? 20 , 000 turkish jews europe world war ii , 10 , 000 living france information section book relates situation france published letters turkish consuls sent nazi officials letters came back reply generally nazis said turkish consul would present documents certifying arrested individuals turkish citizens , promise send france , nazis would release concentration camp turkish consuls also organized special trains take turkish jews nazi occupied territory back turkey trains ran regularly 1943 1944 nazis gave turkish jews could pass nazi territory , trains often held nazi influenced governments eastern europe croatia , serbia , bulgaria governments really n't want jews escape result turkish efforts , 3 , 000 4 , 000 turkish jews france saved another 3 , 000 sent auschwitz , died remaining 3 , 000 either escaped across border spain fled area southern france occupied italians , treated jews much better nazis end 1943 , however , italy fell war , end jews well incidentally , turkish diplomats nazi occupied greece also worked rescue jews country second part book deals turkish diplomats acting rescue jews turkish citizenship turkish origin nazi persecution yes , aside might add interventions behalf turkish jews , turks cited treaty germany stated turkish citizens german territory would treated german citizens turkey basis turks maintained nazis could discriminate turkish citizens jews nazis claimed \( government agreed \) discriminating treating jews equally turkey protested , saying , dividing citizens according religion , turkish constitution requires citizens treated equally , regardless religion therefore , cannot single turkish jews american consuls paris , contrast , accepted nazi argument told american jews persecuted nazis could n't anything , american jews treated jews third part book takes place turkey , principal center holocaust activities aimed rescue eastern european jews agency , organization established jews palestine help jews palestine , set office istanbul 1940 leadership chaim barlas jewish organizations palestine , especially , also sent representatives istanbul set headquarters groups first tried contact jews eastern europe find happening today know holocaust , time people n't know going n't imagine nazis could things first step get information , turkish government let use turkish mails send letters relatives friends eastern europe jewish organizations found happening received replies later nazis began intercept letters , jews received assistance also vatican , angelo , served vatican representative istanbul 1935 1944 later became pope john vatican representative war , used facilities catholic church supplement turkish government assist jewish agencies contacting jews eastern europe cooperation turkish government , agencies sent hard currency , food , clothing , even railroad tickets jews czechoslovakia , bulgaria , romania , hungary n't able help much poland nazis wiped almost polish jews whenever possible rescue agencies arranged jews get eastern europe either train called orient express route istanbul , boat black sea istanbul turkey eager refugees remain within borders war , blockaded suffering terrible food clothing government , therefore , movement non turkish jewish refugees turkey palestine , either taurus express railroad mountains syria palestine , small boats across eastern mediterranean southern turkey palestine efforts bitterly opposed nazis , also british , want jewish immigration palestine feared would hurt relations arabs british constantly pressured turkish government stop traffic send jews back cases turkish government , yielding british pressure , send boats back example , one incident , , 700 jewish refugees romania , sent back turkish government result intervention british ambassador ship sunk soviet submarine , lost except one person nevertheless , told , turkish government allowed fewer 100 , 000 eastern european jews pass turkish territory move palestine second world war turkish authorities also provided refugees facilities money , gave permission send money food country many jews passed turkey may still living israel yes , children let 's return moment first group , turkish jews came europe go palestine stayed turkey non turkish , eastern european jews passed turkey en route palestine story interesting rescued obscurity many studies made holocaust , focus eastern european middle eastern jews scholarship centered western european jews , 6 million massacred nazis study deals much smaller number people tried round picture , hope book persuade scholars undertake investigations history eastern jews comes numbers , german jews also relatively small number millions slain polish jews rescue 100 , 000 eastern european jews may seem significant compared total 6 million murdered , meant lot saved three book consists documents translations many documents included story well known people west unaware courageous actions turkish diplomats even people turkey know story felt would fully understand remarkable achievement unless could see documents languages used documents \? turkish french hebrew great deal material hebrew organization boats going palestine , passengers , , go details extensively describe mostly turkey , documents turkish french documents english jewish groups istanbul necessarily cooperate one another rescue jews fact , often fought one another took turns trying get turkish government rival groups example , kibbutz groups felt jewish agency run western european jews interested helping western european jews finally , 1944 , president roosevelt sent personal representative , ira , executive 's department store new york city , managed reconcile differences documents related mission english also obtained many documents serge , holocaust historian france , mainly worked french jews \( father killed nazis \) gave materials gathered german archives turkish jews , n't personally consult german archives believe much learned german archives , hope someone someday make effort new book fits well teaching , n't \? right i'm giving course history jews ottoman empire first gave course two years ago addition research , writing , teaching , 've actively involved anniversary coming jews ottoman empire among things , helped organize large international conference subject held istanbul 1992 books finished conference taken place , plan next \? i'm working two new books one history turkish war independence , took place world war , years 1918 1923 turks efforts victorious european powers occupy turkey end independence second book study sultan abdul hamid ii , last major sultan , ruled 1876 1909 important way , although also suppressed sorts political movements stanford j shaw received b history british history shifted near eastern history , earning second ph princeton doctoral candidate princeton , spent two years abroad , studying school oriental african studies , university london university cairo , american university cairo , university istanbul taught harvard coming ucla 1966 research supported john simon foundation , american research institute turkey , social science research council , national endowment humanities , fulbright program , received honorary degrees harvard university bosporus university , , istanbul , turkey , honor lifetime contributions fields islamic turkish studies center research islamic history , art , culture istanbul american friends turkey washington , c addition undertaking many professional service activities public lectures united states turkey , shaw also produced eight books one edited volume history ottoman empire modem turkey \( 2 vols \) published many editions \( six editions reprints 1977 1991 \) , translated turkish \( 1983 , 1991 \) french \( 1984 \) book jews ottoman empire turkish republic \( macmillan , london , new york university press , 1992 \) published turkish translation turkish historical society , istanbul turkey holocaust turkey 's role turkish european jewry nazi persecution , 1933 1945 published macmillan publishers , london , new york university press 1993 pamphlet summarizing book published ankara , turkey , 1992 serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject given massacre muslim population karabag armenians reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) lines 124 article 1993apr19 155856 8260 kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes let clearify mr turkish armenia getting itchy simply letting world know longer sit quiet let turks get away famous tricks armenians remember turkish invasion greek island cypress world simply watched next , 1974 , turkiye stepped cyprus preserve lives turkish population nothing simple historical fact unfortunately , intervention late least victims mass graves containing numerous bodies women children already showed fate planned peaceful minority problems cyprus origin decades oppression turkish population greek cypriot officials violation co founder status turks set constitution coup engineered greece 1974 execute final solution turkish problem savage blow invoked turkiye 's intervention turkiye intervened reluctantly last resort exhausting avenues consulting britain greece two treaty protect integrity cyprus simply expansionist motivation turkish action dramatic contrast greek motivation openly expansionist , stated , ' union greece since creation independent cyprus 1960 , turkish population , although smaller , legally status co founder republic greek population greek cypriots , support minded greeks mainland , consistently ignored status portrayed island greek island minority population turks turks cyprus minority greek republic found way could show assert autonomy separate republic turkiye satisfied status quo would rather involved island , given record brutal greek oppression turkish population cyprus , simply cannot leave fate island 's turks hands greeks turkish side satisfied whatever accord two communities finally reach guarantee history repeat rob turkish cypriots rights , liberties lives source tale island , ' h rizvi , p 42 21 12 1963 throughout cyprus following greek cypriot premeditated onslaught 21 december , 1963 , turkish sectors cyprus completely besieged greeks , postal communications sectors cut turkish cypriot community 's contact outside world thus prevented 21 12 63 31 12 63 turkish quarter nicosia suburbs greek cypriot armed elements broke hundreds turkish homes fired unarmed occupants automatic weapons killing random many turks , including women , children elderly persons \( 51 turks killed 82 wounded \) also carried away hostages 700 turks , including women children , forced walk bare night dresses across rough fields river beds 21 12 63 12 12 64 throughout cyprus greek cypriot administration deprived turkish cypriots including ministers , mps , turkish members public services republic , right freedom movement report 12 december , 1964 security council , un secretary general stated respect following restrictions free movement civilians one major features situation cyprus since early stages disturbances , restrictions inflicted considerable population , especially turkish cypriot community , kept tension high 25 9 1964 31 3 1968 throughout cyprus supply petrol completely denied turkish sections makarios addresses un security council 19 july 1974 greek junta coup beginning wish express sincere thanks members security council great interest shown critical situation created cyprus coup organized military regime greece carried greek army officers serving national guard commanding 13 3 1975 road travelling south freedom north turkish woman seriously wounded four month old baby bullets automatic weapon fired greek cypriot mobile patrol car mother baby travelling turkish region baby died mother 's arms murder four month old baby , shocked foreign observers much turkish community , committed irresponsible persons , members greek cypriot security forces according mother 's statement greek police patrol chased car deliberately fired upon serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject armenian scholars extermination 2 5 million muslim people reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 288 article cs duke edu wiener duke cs duke edu \( eduard wiener \) writes n't post english , mike \? appears mean milan , seems greek fucked turns \? truth needs told armenians course witnessed armenian genocide 2 5 million muslim people 1914 1920 voices truth suppressed today hollow din anti turkish muslim campaign asala sdpa arf terrorism revisionism triangle fascist x soviet armenian government well , saw library 's problem \? source k papazian , patriotism perverted , baikar press , boston , 1934 pp 17 18 seems terrorism co nationals prominent part revolutionary activities dashnag leaders caucasus organized fight turks , successful fight armenian opponents turkey , caucasus , often defenseless innocent p 38 fact remains , however , leaders turkish armenian section dashnagtzoutune carry promise loyalty turkish cause turks entered war call sent armenian volunteers fight turks caucasian front p 38 thousands armenians world , standards famous fighters antranik , , dro , etc armenian volunteer rendered valuable service russian army years 1914 15 16 source adventures near east , 1918 1922 rawlinson , jonathan cape , 30 bedford square , london , 1934 \( first published 1923 \) \( 287 pages \) \( memoirs british officer witnessed armenian genocide 2 5 million muslim people \) p 184 \( second paragraph \) received definite information horrors committed armenian kars plain , able judge want discipline treatment detached parties , wired tiflis zivin 'in interests humanity armenians left independent command moslem population , , troops without discipline effective control , atrocities constantly committed , justice eventually held morally responsible' p 177 \( third paragraph \) armenian troops , , pillaged destroyed moslem villages plain caravans refugees meanwhile constantly arriving plain , whole moslem population fleeing much personal property could transport , seeking obtain security protection p 178 \( first paragraph \) moslem villages plain searched arms armenians everything taken cloak search , many moslems killed , horrible tortures inflicted endeavour obtain information valuables hidden , armenians aware existence , although unable find p 179 \( first paragraph \) shortly afterwards head miserable column appeared 200 persons , mostly old men women children , ox carts , , , carrying worldly possessions , except sheep driving leader interviewed bey , told keep farther hills , would able cross frontier turkey enemies p 181 \( first paragraph \) armenians plain attacking kurdish line artillery , probably large force support p 175 \( first paragraph \) arrival british brigade followed announcement kars province allotted supreme council allies armenians , announcement made , british troops completely withdrawn , armenian occupation commenced hence trouble armenians commenced wholesale robbery persecution muslem population pretext necessary forcibly deprive arms portion province lies plains able carry purpose , manner done referred due course following news turan news agency baku azerbaijan brought service azerbaijan association p box 14571 berkeley , ca fax \( 804 \) 490 3832 email farid mem odu edu government appeals world 60 refugees kelbajar perished escape situation region kelbajar armenian army continues attack fizuli press conference chief press service president azerbaijan azerbaijanis picket front ministry foreign affairs russia picket moscow attack armenian units stopped statement ministry foreign affairs azerbaijan government appeals world baku \( april 5 \) turan today , azerbaijan 's government appealed azeris world connection escalation armenian aggression republic stressed appeal experience five years fighting independence imperial chains shows grim process war azerbaijan protecting human rights armenians \( upper \) , meant destruction azeri villages towns , occupation 10 percent territory , 60 thousand new refugees addition 500 thousand already place price fighting liberty russian imperial rule , said document azerbaijan 's government appeals make every effort inform people world truth azerbaijan , assistance solving problems facing young state stressed appeal urgent need medicine , food , experienced doctors financial help settle refugees kelbajar , fizuli regions , render medical aid sick wounded men 60 refugees kelbajar perished escape baku \( april 5 \) turan today , evacuation kelbajar region , 60 refugees board two killed fire armenian tanks road leave kelbajar according press service azerbaijan president , one survived tragedy situation region kelbajar baku \( 5 april \) turan attempts evacuate rest 15 , 000 citizens , alpine villages region kelbajar went within last twenty four hours evacuation helicopters could land near villages shelling armenian side existence fog measures undertaken air drop food medicine people several hundred people succeed within last twenty four hours get region kelbajar via mountain range refugees settled neighboring regions azerbaijan authorities face serious problem rendering refugees medical aid food number refugees kelbajar 40 , 000 people azerbaijan capable handling disaster magnitude 0 armenian army continues attack fizuli baku \( 5 april \) turan region fizuli azerbaijan , situated outside territory \( nagorno \) , subjected attacks armenian army fourth day 30 armored technique 500 soldiers enemy taking part attack armenian units broke defence line azeri forces occupied ruling height town shelled grad installations , morning heavy town 20 people dead population town evacuated 0 press conference chief press service president azerbaijan baku \( 5 april \) turan fifty five thousand refugees region kelbajar taken 11 o'clock april 5 , informed chief press service president azerbaijan , , today journalists also informed press conference international red cross helping accept render refugees medical aid urgent need supply refugees tents , food medical aid informed result ongoing tragedy brought latest aggression armenia , leadership azerbaijan intends appeal azerbaijanis treasure human life world help concerning reaction international community aggression armenia , said department state usa expressed anxiety leadership armenia participants peace efforts \( nagorno \) csce , , strongly blamed aggression armenia azerbaijan leader press service informed tomorrow ambassador azerbaijan russia , haji , conduct press conference moscow detailed information latest events region kelbajar azerbaijan given press conference 0 azerbaijanis picket front ministry foreign affairs russia baku \( 5 april \) turan azerbaijanis , living moscow , front building ministry foreign affairs russia picket conducted token protest participation russian units capture region kelbajar azerbaijan armenians 100 people took part picket , organized azerbaijani society 0 picket moscow baku \( 5 april \) 30 40 members sadval society building permanent representation azerbaijan moscow demanding return lezghins lands , annexed azerbaijan ambassador azerbaijan moscow , haji classified action provocation aimed creating inter ethnic conflict azerbaijan marked talk turan correspondent rule connection armenian aggression region kelbajar anti azerbaijani action sadval society moscow also marked 30 40 people mean nationality whole society lezghins , sadval , registered moscow 1990 , demands creation state , never existed northern territories azerbaijan 0 attack armenian units stopped baku \( 5 april \) turan attack armenian army town fizuli , began last twenty four hours , stopped , informs press service ministry defence azerbaijan result undertaken measures , 6 tanks number attackers destroyed advance units armenian army retreated several kilometers chairman parliament , isa gambar , visited town fizuli met commanders units national army local citizens , today 0 statement ministry foreign affairs azerbaijan baku \( 5 april \) turan ministry foreign affairs azerbaijan issued statement connection aggression armenia region kelbajar azerbaijan stated statement regular units armed forces armenia captured town kelbajar april 3 attack armenian units , began march 27 deep territory azerbaijan still continues armenia occupied present 7500 sq km territory azerbaijan spreading armenian aggression far away \( upper \) proves armenian azerbaijani conflicts entered specially dangerous phase result non recognition armenia aggressor international community , marked document stressed statement units 7th russian army participating armenian attack casts doubt sincerity russian efforts finding peaceful solution conflict marked conclusion aggressive actions armenia wrecked negotiation process csce document contains appeal world community stop armenian aggression use political economic sanctions aggressor 0 serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject nazi armenian philosophy race everything everything reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 155 article 1993apr19 kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes buch crap know nagarno karabagh always part armenia stalin gave azeris go back review history 's prayers answered , bones would rain sky know word 'turkish' name \? , russians armenians , drove turks muslims , turkish majority town well , anyway , surprising armenians also collaborated nazis wholly variously pro nazi , pro russia , pro soviet armenia , pro arab , pro jewish , well anti jewish , anti zionist , anti communist , anti soviet whichever expedient 1 1 john roy carlson \( arthur derounian \) , damascus , ' alfred , new york , 1951 , p 438 dear friend put , tzeghagrons \( armenian racial patriots \) youth organization based boston \( asala sdpa arf terrorism triangle located \) followers armenian colonies world literally means 'to make religion one 's race ' architect armenian racial patriots , nazi armenian became key leader collaboration hitler world war ii 1933 , invited united states central committee inspire organize american armenian youth succeeded unifying many local armenian youth groups tzeghagrons starting 20 chapters initial year , tzeghagrons grew 60 chapters became largest powerful nazi armenian organization also provided tzeghagrons philosophy racial religious beliefs racial blood deity race everything everything race comes first 1 1 quoted john roy carlson \( real name arthur derounian \) , armenian displaced persons , 'armenian affairs , ' winter , 1949 50 , p 19 , footnote wait , gruesome extent february 's killings azeris armenians town hojali last emerging azerbaijan 600 men , women children dead worst outrage four year war nagorny karabakh figure drawn azeri investigators , hojali officials casualty lists published baku press diplomats aid workers say death toll line estimates 25 february attack hojali armenian forces one last moves four year campaign take full control nagorny karabakh , subject new round negotiations rome monday bloodshed something fighting retreat massacre , investigators say dead civilians awful number people killed first suppressed fearful former communist government baku later blurred armenian denials grief stricken azerbaijan 's wild contradictory allegations 2 , 000 dead state , rasulov , cheif investigator 15 man team looking azerbaijan calls hojali disaster , said figure 600 people dead minimum preliminary findings similar estimate given elman memmedov , mayor hojali even higher one printed baku newspaper ordu may 479 dead people named 200 bodies reported unidentified figure nearly 700 dead quoted official leila , new spokeswoman azeri ministry defence francois zen ruffinen , head delegation international red cross baku , said muslim imam nearby city agdam reported figure 580 bodies received mosque hojali , civilians count bodies figure seems reasonable fantasy , mr zen ruffinen said idea since gave body bags products wash dead mr rasulov give estimate number dead massacre n't get worked take several months get final figure , 43 year old lawyer said small office mr rasulov knows things took two years reach firm conclusion 131 people killed 714 wounded soviet troops tanks crushed nationalist uprising baku january 1990 nationalists , popular front , finally came power three weeks ago applying pressure find exactly happened hojali , azeri town lies 70 miles border armenia , fell armenians officially , 184 people far certified dead , number people could medically examined republic 's forensic department small percentage dead , said rafiq youssifov , republic 's chief forensic scientist bodies brought us remember chaos fact muslims wash bury dead within 24 hours 184 people , 51 women , 13 children 14 years old gunshots killed 151 people , shrapnel killed 20 axes blunt instruments killed 10 exposure highland snows killed last three thirty three people showed signs deliberate mutilation , including ears , noses , breasts cut eyes gouged , according professor youssifov 's report 184 bodies examined less third believed killed , mr rasulov said files mr rasulov 's investigative commission still lists 44 azeri militiamen dead , six policemen , handwriting mosque attendant , names 111 corpses brought washed one day account 850 witnesses interviewed far comes towfiq manafov , azeri investigator took helicopter flight escape route hojali 27 february many bodies dead wounded ground count properly 470 500 hojali , 650 700 people stream road 85 100 visible around nakhchivanik village , mr manafov wrote statement helicopter pilot people waved us help saw three dead children one two year old alive one dead woman live one pulling arm mother get tried land armenians started helicopter return lists figures circulation political last months fact nobody knows exactly hojali time many inhabitants displaced villages taken armenian forces independent , london , 12 6 '92 serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
pgf5 cunixb cc columbia edu \( peter garfiel freeman \) subject nazi eugenic theories circulated cpr \( peace \) nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply pgf5 cunixb cc columbia edu \( peter garfiel freeman \) organization columbia university lines 36 article 1993apr19 cirrus com chrism cirrus com \( chris metcalfe \) writes strong evidence cpr really stands unbelievable disgusting proves must never forget unconventional proposal peace middle east unconventional eugenic solutions jewish problem suggested northern europeans past eugenics science deals improvement \( control human mating \) qualities race breed webster 's ninth collegiate dictionary would thankful critical comments proposal well dissemination proposal meaningful discussion enrichment elias davidsson post box 1760 121 reykjavik , iceland critical comment take nazi flag holocaust photos bedroom wall , elias 'll never succeed chris metcalfe chris , solid job discussing inherent nazism mr davidsson 's post oddly , posted address hate mail , think utilize elias , nur dem nicht alle , der \? peace , pete
ifaz706 utxvms cc utexas edu \( noam tractinsky \) subject ten questions israel lines 66 nntp posting host cc utexas edu organization university texas austin lines 66 article 1483500349 igc apc org , cpr igc apc org \( center policy research \) writes center policy research cpr subject ten questions israel ten questions israelis would thankful live israel could help provide accurate answers following specific questions indeed provocative questions asked time people around 1 true israeli authorities n't recognize israeli nationality \? id cards , israeli citizens must carry times , identify people jews arabs , israelis \? 's true israeli id cards identify people smart huh \? 3 true israeli stocks nuclear weapons \? , could provide evidence \? yes 's one warhead parent 's backyard beer \( 's 20 miles , know \) evidence \? saw ! 4 true israeli prisons number individuals tried secret identities , date trial imprisonment state secrets \? yes unfortunately ca n't give details 's secret , see thanks , elias davidsson iceland email elias ismennt 're welcome , let ask questions , n't mind 1 true center policy research one man enterprise \? 2 true questions asked bona fide \? 3 true statement , indeed provocative questions asked time people around true \? noam
anwar cs cmu edu \( anwar mohammed \) subject us consider yigal arens dangerous humanity nntp posting host gs135 sp cs cmu edu organization school computer science , carnegie mellon lines 30 article 4815 bimacs bitnet ehrlich bimacs bitnet \( gideon ehrlich \) writes readers forum seemed interested contents files nice yigal tell us 1 american authorities consider yigal arens dangerous \? adl authorities seem view lot people dangerous , including millions americans arab ancestry perhaps answer question adl maintained files spied adc members california \( elsewhere \? \? \) \? friendly rivalry perhaps \? perhaps yigal greenpeace member \? naacp \? reporter \? member dozens political organizations ethnic minorities adl spied 2 adl interest person \? paranoia \? 3 one trust either us government adl additional information send \? names half posters forum , unless already gideon ehrlich anwar
bc744 cleveland freenet edu \( mark ira kaufman \) subject ten questions israel organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 8 nntp posting host ins cwru edu center policy research pose unbelievably stupid loaded questions newsgroup \? think tank , fish tank \? every time start believe seen outer boundaries stupidity , come one step beyond end , man \? actually brain enough dress feed morning \?
deniz mandolin ctr columbia edu \( deniz akkus \) subject armenia says could shoot turkish planes organization columbia university center telecommunications research x posted mandolin ctr columbia edu nntp posting host sol ctr columbia edu lines 43 article 1993apr20 164517 20876 kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes article 1993apr20 25123 ee rochester edu , terziogl ee rochester edu \( esin terzioglu \) writes response shooting turkish airplane armenian air space ignorant posting person country turks azeris consistantly want drag armenia karabakh conflict azerbaijan karabakhi armenians lived homeland 3000 years \( cut armenia given azeris stalin \) ones directly involved conflict defending azeri aggression agression mercy inocent people shelled mig 23 's russian aircraft last , hope u insists turkey stay karabakh crisis repeat cyprus invasion never occur armenia involved fighting azarbaijan armenian soldiers mainland armenia shelling towns azarbaijan might wish read whether azeri aggression region seems armenians better organized , success militarily shell azeri towns repeatedly n't wish get cyprus discussion turkey right intervene , perhaps intervention supposed last long , constant refusal greek governments island greece deal reality also blamed ongoing standoff region lastly , soc culture armenia \? vote yes , free regards , deniz
organization american university university computing center auvm american edu subject turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece \( armenia azeris \) 1993apr15 174657 6176 news uiowa edu lines 129 message id 1993apr15 174657 6176 news uiowa edu mr napoleon responds mr napoleon well , panos , mr tamamidis \? , way put turks bear responsibility things happening today hard believe somebody trying objective comes conflicts like countries cannot blame one side , always bad guys sides anatolia ww1 anyway \? think right \? couple millions greeks living asia minor 1923 someone protect us \? \? \? taking advantage weakness ottoman empire grab land soon got green lights allied forces , occupied izmir cities western turkey killed raped millions people without reason course , paid price mustafa kemal ataturk made swim aegean sea far enough thru turkey anytime past get reward shall get anywhere saying conflicts started one side aggressive ither always suffering sad \( \) still trying compromise remember action turkish government removing visa requirement greeks come turkey thought positive attempt make relations better compromise , invasion cyprus , involment turkey greek politics , refusal turkey accept 12 miles territorial waters stated international law , properties greeks konstantinople , ownership islands greek lake , sorry , aegean compromise talking cyprus greece business join island greece people island live live together made decision living peace greeks ca n't slaughter turks anymore turkish force dream never come true 12 mile ! ! ! ! joking dreaming \? declare 12 miles territorial water come close athens would like \? guts n't shoot turkish ships dream 12 mile territorial waters \? city called konstantinople city called istanbul ! ! ! ! greeks istanbul treated turks difference among people turkey look backyard first talking human rights turkey rights turks greece \? nothing even basic human rights like right property , fredom religion , fredom press , fredom vote elect community leaders government greece publicly encourages people destroy burn schools , religious places , houses , farms belong turkish minority , greek government forces minorities go turkey without anything dream see aegean sea greek lake never happen think war turkey greece 1915 river called flood 21 days filled blood 1915 greeks mentioned would n't talk educated people never met know ! bad person turkey politics business , business turks comes individuals hatred \? person supports policies turkish goverment directly bad person nationality makes bad , support actions goverment make bad people hate supporter policies turkish goverment must pay price mean person supports actions policies government greece good person greek idea say turks bad people know proud turks anywhere world greeks business tell us kind people position judge people civilized enough give equal rights minorities millions minorities treated third class citizen , rights taken away , voices government greece almost treated slaves even though getting century therefore , make makes think kind brainwashing going greece would educated person treat every person nation way \? tell history books things learn greek turkish encounters schooling take easy ! need brainwashing turn people turks greeks , , slavs , kurds people luck turkish occupation talk murders , rapes , distruction learn turks history books , learn people experienced first hand turkish friendliness government greece actively supporting terrorism turkey armenian kurdish terrorists headquarters athens trained special camps greece taught kill innocent women children claim , fact known whole world , action murder , rape , destroy innocent people take seriously positions talk human rights dignity government , government greece actively supports atrocities bosnia serbs 's barbarism pleases government please napoleon think twice write anything turks turkey worst human right conditions treatment minorities wants fried someone whose government respect human rights , supports terrorism turkey , barbaric actions bosnia , treats turkish minorities third class citizen take away rights , treating slaves beginning century \? \? \? \? \? \? \? aykut atakan napoleon
dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) subject jokes international relations summary bir organization p center regional studies lines 47 article 1993apr19 freenet carleton ca aa624 freenet carleton ca \( suat kiniklioglu \) k kubilay kultigin wrote kk jewish jokes kk kk kk israel able divert jewish lobby greeks , kk example , persuading supporting armenian kk resolution came senate february 1990 kk could help sour israeli relations addition , kk israeli embassy washington active ensuring kk resolution failed , instance assisting turkish jews kk travel underline affinity israel kk turkey kk kk doubt debt turkey felt owed kk israel matter even four months kk solution came consideration , member kk turkish foreign ministry said country grateful kk israel , cooperation , view , kk maturity bilateral relationship experience kk armenian issue convinced senior figures turkey kk pro israel network washington indeed deliver kk desired results kk kk robins philip , turkey middle east 1991 house kk papers p kk kk papers p 84 kk got go fast ! rather warped sense logic ! telling us israel wishes good relations turkey even expense armenians armenia , makes bad turks tell racist jokes jews thus , infer , israel poor relations turkey , would alright post horrible jokes jews ! impress nobody david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org explain turkish troops p center regional studies armenian border , ca n't p box 382761 even explain 1915 \? cambridge , 02238 turkish mp , march 1992
dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) subject accounts anti armenian human right violations azerbaijan 010 organization p center regional studies lines 23 article 1993apr20 freenet carleton ca aa624 freenet carleton ca \( suat kiniklioglu \) k kubilay kultigin writes kk david yes \? kk give rest \? \? \? kk increasingly becoming annoying barbarism rather annoying , n't , especially comes country , azerbaijan , claims turkey number one ally , protector , mentor ! david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org explain turkish troops p center regional studies armenian border , ca n't p box 382761 even explain 1915 \? cambridge , 02238 turkish mp , march 1992
mucit cs rochester edu \( bulent murtezaoglu \) subject armenia says could shoot turkish planes reply henrik quayle kpc com 's message tue , 20 apr 1993 16 45 17 gmt nntp posting host vein cs rochester edu organization computer science department , university rochester 1993apr17 185118 10792 ee rochester edu 1993apr19 155856 8260 kpc com 1993apr20 25123 ee rochester edu 1993apr20 164517 20876 kpc com article 1993apr20 164517 20876 kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes stuff deleted country turks azeris consistantly want drag armenia karabakh conflict azerbaijan gimme break capital letters , , pure nonsense seems short sighted armenians escalating hostilities hoping turkey stay stop think moment , \? armenia n't need anyone drag conflict , part karabakhi armenians lived homeland 3000 years \( cut armenia given azeris stalin \) ones directly involved conflict defending azeri aggression huh \? n't expect azeri 's friendly forces fighting within borders \? last , hope u insists turkey stay karabakh crisis repeat cyprus invasion never occur 're playing full deck , \? would turkey invade \? throwing cyprus around c g header hopes greek netters jump gun \? yes indeed turkey military prowess intervene , wishes , however , diplomatic power stop hostilities bring parties negotiating table 's hard armenians attacking azeri towns armenian leaders lacking recognize futility armed conflict convince nation compromise leads stability much better military 's going cause incessant think 10 20 years line newly independent countries need develop economically neither one going wipe people neighbors , would better keep bad blood minimal \? belong armenian diaspora , keep mind strikes fancy map costing local armenians dearly terms blood future 's easy comfortable abroad feelings turks armenians armenia n k , people seem hate neighbors , maybe 3000 years sooner 's peace region better everyone else 'd push compromise instead hitting caps lock spreading inflammatory half truths cheers , bm
albert aiva lt \( albert \) subject many israeli soldiers dark much \? distribution world organization israeli joint stock company reply albert aiva lt keywords ani et love lines 32 q many occupying israeli soldiers \( terrorists \) take kill 5 year old native child \? four two fasten arms , one shoots face , one writes false report 1 similar idea ex ussr many needs place new electric lamp answer nine one stays table holds lamp , four hold table turn yet four run around table opposite direction make first feel bad \( turned \) , lacks kind dark humour nick 's msg 2 mind signature like albert ii \) \( \) ii \) ' \)
henrik quayle kpc com subject armenia says could shoot turkish planes organization none lines 67 article 1993apr20 sol ctr columbia edu , deniz mandolin ctr columbia edu \( deniz akkus \) writes article 1993apr20 164517 20876 kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes article 1993apr20 25123 ee rochester edu , terziogl ee rochester edu \( esin terzioglu \) writes henrik response shooting turkish airplane henrik armenian air space ignorant posting henrik person country turks azeris consistantly want henrik drag armenia karabakh conflict azerbaijan henrik karabakhi armenians lived homeland 3000 henrik years \( cut armenia given azeris stalin \) henrik ones directly involved conflict defending henrik azeri aggression agression mercy henrik inocent people shelled mig 23 's henrik russian aircraft henrik last , hope u insists turkey stay henrik karabakh crisis repeat cyprus invasion henrik never occur da armenia involved fighting azarbaijan armenian da soldiers mainland armenia shelling towns azarbaijan well , opinion ! turkish azeris bark want since untrue however , sure guys would never brought armenia 's involvement karabakhi armenians heavy losses da might wish read whether azeri aggression da region seems armenians better da organized , success militarily shell azeri towns da repeatedly read \? new york times , publishing anti armenian articles nop , resources look , everyone knows aggressive turks azeris past armenians gona sit around watch fire works azeris taught turks da seems armenians better organized , success da militarily shell azeri towns repeatedly buch non sence crap know hell think talking \? azeris fighting local armenians nagarno karabakh tell mig 's \? freedom fighters nagarno karabakh azerbaijan \? , say last time , armenia involved war guys want bring order cover turkish karabakh go ahead , repeat much want da n't wish get cyprus discussion turkey right da intervene , perhaps intervention supposed da last long , constant refusal greek governments da island greece deal reality also blamed da ongoing standoff region chance ! convince \( based reasons \) government right thing invade cyprus da lastly , soc culture armenia \? vote yes da , free well , position agree
dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) subject armenia says could shoot turkish planes \( henrik \) organization p center regional studies lines 93 article 1993apr20 kth se hilmi er dsv su se \( hilmi eren \) henrik quayle kpc com wrote h armenians nagarno karabagh simply defending rights h keep homeland azeris invading h homeland \? first nagarno karabagh armenians homeland today fizuli , lacin several villages \( azerbadjan \) homeland ca n't see great armenia dream \? greater armenia would stretch karabakh , black sea , mediterranean , use term greater armenia use care facist methods like killing , raping bombing villages last move blast truck 60 kurdish refugees , trying escape lacin , city given kurds armenians always azeris end announced winning karabakh removing armenians ! president azerbaijan , elchibey , came power last year , announced would swimming lake july well , wrong ! elchibey going shell armenians karabakh , people pay price ! elchibey going shell karabakh fizuli people pay price ! elchibey thinks get away bombing armenia hills kelbajar , people pay price also seems non azeri minorities azerbaijan understood next line process forced deportation look situation lezgians kurds kurds ! according azerbaijani government , kurds azerbaijan ca n't make minds \? oh see , kurds azeris want kurds ! anyway , 60 kurd refugee story , stories , simple fabrications baku , modified ankara examples armenia border iran , ridiculous story intercepting armenian military conversations appeared new york times supposedly translated somebody unknown , armenian azeri turkish , submitted unnamed special correspondent ny times baku real accurate ! h however , hope armenians force turkish airplane h land purposes searching arms similar one h happened last summer turkey searched american plane h \( carrying humanitarian aid \) bound armenia h , henrik , turkish planes shot questions asked n't speak things n't know 8 american cargo planes heading armenia turkish authorities announced going search cargo planes 3 planes returned 's base germany 5 planes searched turkey content 3 planes \? hard guess , \? sure humanitarian aid facts error shipments kinds turkey either searched , routed confiscated american planes searched , others routed , others untouched rail shipments held last fall last winter entering armenian turkey purpose aiding economic collapse armenia wheat confiscated , shipments exchanged crap dirt , shipped armenia u planes n't use turkish air bases u uses bases bomb iraq anyway , u planes fly georgia , found easier endure unnecessary expressions turkish searches cargo day revealed anything paranoid turkish military search turkish planes \? n't know talking since 's content announced weapons \? well , big mouth ozal said military weapons provided azerbaijan turkey , yet demirel others say wonder confused ! turkey 's government announced 's giving weapons azerbadjan since armenia started attack azerbadjan self , karabag province search plane weapons since 's content announced weapons \? correct , turkish planes simply shot ! nice , slow moving air transports ! david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org explain turkish troops p center regional studies armenian border , ca n't p box 382761 even explain 1915 \? cambridge , 02238 turkish mp , march 1992
kaveh gate corp sgi com \( kaveh smith \) subject jews islam dr nntp posting host gate corp sgi com reply kaveh gate corp sgi com \( kaveh smith \) organization silicon graphics , inc , mountain view , ca , usa lines 49 found jewish people creative jewish religion foundation christianity islam words judaism fathered religions islam turned father may say ironic threat almost gone , religion wars going raise thought idea believing one god , unite man kind come jews islam believe god , god killing \? like dr 's story \? going stop happening \? going deal many muslims would whole world \? would god get mad , since killed followers , believe god , heaven hell \? peacefull way ending saga \? man kind needs religion , since sets rules regulations keeps society healthy state religion mostly sets rules people experienced know works society praying , keeps sole healthy god care man kinds pray , man kind hopes god help prays religion works mostly moral issues trys put away materialistic things life religious leaders need make living religion \? may corrupt , turn way make living e muslims pay 20 percent income guess gets cut ! religion everybody planet earth respects , good toward helps one another , respect mother nature heaven hell created earth acts take today \? within every man good bad , could choose either one , see outcome choice prevent man kind going crazy religion stop another religious killing field , poor gods name \? thoughts \? think man kind would come senses , late \? p side think moses saw god mount \? would god go top mountain \? created earth , could anywhere \? top mountain \? people thought see god reach skies heavens \? god kept coming back middle east \? created god imagination \? jewish people told god , chosen ones \? profit mohammad married jewish taught trade probably taught judaism quran mostly copy right taurah \( sp \? old \) think god wrote quran \? trade city islam think made center islamic world mohammad wanted expand trade business \? god put house \? think religious stuff gone far man kind going hurt wise look david koresh , turned \? afraid bigger scale , jews muslims ending ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! religion needed sense keep people harmony keep good things , rather plotting others distruction one earth , one life one god let 's man kind good toward god help us peace
oyalcin iastate edu \( onur yalcin \) subject armenia says could shoot turkish planes reply oyalcin iastate edu \( onur yalcin \) organization iowa state university lines 69 article 1993apr19 kpc com , henrik quayle kpc com writes article news iastate edu , oyalcin iastate edu \( onur yalcin \) writes onur yalcin secondly , island name correctly spelled onur yalcin cyprus never greek , rather , home onur yalcin bi communal society formed greeks turks seems onur yalcin know little history onur yalcin island , know essence turkey 's onur yalcin military intervention international agreements bi communal society \? greece invade cyprus \? henrik \( \? \) , ignorance manifests awkward form intransigence i'm going spend time review recent history cyprus really interested , provide number references issue send email onur yalcin may , analogy act occupation onur yalcin history going today azerbaijani land , onur yalcin drawn expansionist policy armenia pursuing buch crap know nagarno karabagh always part armenia stalin gave azeris go back review history armenians nagarno karabagh simply defending rights keep homeland azeris invading onur yalcin , could agree us issue diagnoses onur yalcin political conduct countries , promulgate onur yalcin terminology itchy bitchy one stated relax ! 're swinging fists open air agreeing , assuming would one points state ! may much used , agreed , take easily ! \) however , hope armenians force turkish airplane land purposes searching arms similar one , henrik , believe n't hope happened last summer turkey searched american plane \( carrying humanitarian aid \) bound armenia one french plane changed route avoid inspection \? \? \? onur yalcin oyalcin iastate edu un
tankut iastate edu \( sabri atan \) subject turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece \( armenia azeris \) reply tankut iastate edu \( sabri atan \) organization iowa state university lines 36 article 1993apr20 news uiowa edu , mau herky cs uiowa edu \( mau napoleon \) writes article lynx unm edu , osinski chtm eece unm edu \( marek osinski \) well , take long see consequent greeks requesting thessaloniki called solun bulgarian netters , napoleon , write konstantinople istanbul \? marek osinski thessaloniki called thessaloniki inhabitants last 2300 years city never called solun inhabitants called konstantinoupolis 320 ad 1920s 's 1600 years many people alive today born city called konstantinoupolis many people know born city called solun napoleon one people born istanbul called \? n't think ! people use used , understand open map today \( except try political \) see name city printed istanbul , n't try give arguments using except cause flames , make political statement tankut atan tankut iastate edu achtung , baby !
adam endor uucp \( adam shostack \) subject ten questions israel organization aiken computation lab , harvard university lines 64 article 1483500349 igc apc org cpr igc apc org \( center policy research \) writes ten questions arab countries would thankful live arab countries could help provide accurate answers following specific questions indeed provocative questions asked time people around 1 true many arab countries n't recognize israeli nationality \? people israeli stamps passports ca n't enter arabic countries \? 2 true arabic countries jordan syria undefined borders arab governments 1948 today refused state ultimate borders states \? 3 true arab refused sign chemical weapon convention treaty paris 1993 \? 4 true arab prisons number individuals tried secret identities , date trial imprisonment state secrets \? 4a true arab countries , like syria , harbor nazi war criminals , refuse \? 4b true arab countries , like saudi arabia , prohibit women driving cars \? 5 true jews reside muslim countries subject different laws muslims \? 6 true arab countries confiscated property entire jewish forced flee anti jewish riots \? 7 true israel 's prime minister , rabin , signed chemical weapons treaty arab nation willing sign \? 8 true syrian jews required leave 10 , 000 deposit leaving country , longer allowed , despite promises made assad george bush \? 9 true jews muslim lands required pay special tax , jews \? 10 true hotel jerusalem built jewish , roads paved grave sites , used jordanian \? 11 really cheesy inappropriate post lists biased leading questions \? less appropriate information implied mr davidsson 's questions highly misleading \? adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu budget big enough drugs sexual favors , sure would n't waste members congress john perry barlow
backon vms huji ac il subject ten questions israel distribution world organization hebrew university jerusalem lines 134 article 1483500349 igc apc org , cpr igc apc org \( center policy research \) writes center policy research cpr subject ten questions israel ten questions israelis would thankful live israel could help provide accurate answers following specific questions indeed provocative questions asked time people around 1 true israeli authorities n't recognize israeli nationality \? id cards , israeli citizens must carry times , identify people jews arabs , israelis \? although hebrew expression used , id card specifically states 2nd page israeli citizen true israeli citizens matter ethnicity united states official forms race \( caucasian , black , , etc \) 2 true state israel fixed borders israeli governments 1948 today refused state ultimate borders state israel \? funny , number maps fixed borders 3 true israeli stocks nuclear weapons \? , could provide evidence \? probably yes \? 4 true israeli prisons number individuals tried secret identities , date trial imprisonment state secrets \? apart mordechai vanunu trial behind closed doors , one espionage case \( nutty professor nes biological institute k g b mole \) tried camera would n't exactly call state secret trial simply tried behind closed doors hate disappoint united states tried number espionage cases camera 5 true jews reside occupied territories subject different laws non jews \? jews israeli citizens jordanian law effect west bank knesset passed law israeli law would binding israeli citizens residing west bank citizens could jews , israeli muslims , , israeli christians nothing religion 6 true jews left palestine war 1947 48 avoid war automatically allowed return , christian neighbors allowed return \? anyone registered \( jew , muslim , christian \) could return might confusing census taken june 1967 west bank six day war instance , arab physically present could n't reside west bank \( e g jordan \) 7 true israel 's prime minister , rabin , signed order ethnical cleansing 1948 , done today bosnia herzegovina \? even drowned bourbon , brandy \) 8 true israeli arab citizens admitted members kibbutzim \? true although minority , israeli arabs living kibbutzim hand , age \( 42 \) would n't admitted kibbutz could family join would thrilled first place movement places candidates rigorous membership criteria many israeli jews admitted 9 true israeli law attempts discourage marriages jews non jews \? religious status quo israel marriage divorce handled religious courts handles marriage divorce jews , muslim courts muslims , christian denominations religious courts , courts entire religious establishment \( jewish , muslim , , christian \) wants keep way 10 true hotel hilton tel aviv built site muslim cemetery \? believe 's adjacent former muslim heard \( 'd like get feedback net \) sanctity held held jews current israeli ministry trade industry road jerusalem housed former hotel built arabs 1920 's site arab josh backon vms huji ac il thanks , elias davidsson iceland email elias ismennt
henrik quayle kpc com subject armenia says could shoot turkish planes organization none lines 100 article mucit vein cs rochester edu , mucit cs rochester edu \( bulent murtezaoglu \) writes article 1993apr20 164517 20876 kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes stuff deleted henrik country turks azeris consistantly want drag armenia henrik karabakh conflict azerbaijan bm gimme break capital letters , , pure nonsense bm seems short sighted armenians escalating hostilities , armenians karabakh simply defending want lay arms let azeris walk bm hoping turkey stay stop think moment , bm \? armenia n't need anyone drag conflict , bm part armenians knew begining turks fully engaged training azeris militarily fight karabakhi armenians henrik karabakhi armenians lived homeland 3000 henrik years \( cut armenia given azeris stalin \) henrik ones directly involved conflict defending henrik azeri aggression bm huh \? n't expect azeri 's friendly forces fighting bm within borders \? well , history sad remember , relocated azeris armenian land karabakh stalin regime henrik last , hope u insists turkey stay henrik karabakh crisis repeat cyprus invasion never henrik occur bm 're playing full deck , \? would turkey invade \? speculate sure turkey would stepped armenia could bm throwing cyprus around c g header bm hopes greek netters jump gun \? absolutely ! merely trying emphasize many cases , history repeats bm yes indeed turkey military prowess intervene , wishes bm , however , diplomatic power stop hostilities bring bm parties negotiating table 's hard armenians bm attacking azeri towns , let understand plain words saying turkey wants peaceful end conflict ! ! believe see , far attacking , see gun pointing head \? sit watch defend \( fat chance \) \? remember azeris armenians baku \? acts especially mothers children mean burning people alive ! bm armenian leaders lacking recognize bm futility armed conflict convince nation compromise bm leads stability much better military 's bm going cause incessant armenians karabakh want peace republic asking much simply want get back taken away given azeris stalin bm think 10 20 years line newly independent bm countries need develop economically neither one going wipe bm people neighbors , would better bm keep bad blood minimal \? n't get wrong also want peaceful solution conflict azeris realize , armenians karabakh defend bm belong armenian diaspora , keep mind strikes bm fancy map costing local armenians dearly terms bm blood future , taking different turns armenia grab land azerbaijan armenians karabakh simply defending solution set bm 's easy comfortable abroad bm feelings turks armenians bm armenia n k , people seem hate bm neighbors , maybe 3000 years sooner 's peace bm region better everyone else 'd push bm compromise instead hitting caps lock spreading bm inflammatory half truths decide peace initiative absolutely , meantime , take care , wiped case era 1915 20 armenian massacres
jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) subject flame jewish home palestine organization department redundancy department lines 41 article imag fr maler vercors imag fr \( oded maler \) writes article bony1 bony com , jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) writes typical arabic thinking guilty something , everyone else unfortunately , nabil , jewish tribes nearly susceptible murdering still common among arabs middle east killings jewish tribes way n't like comment typical thinking could state interpretation exodus without read exodus see lot killing , painted author bible ideological religious colors history desert seen nomadic people occupying land 's think great book descendants arabs , turks mongols unify well somehow missed nabil 's comments , even though included followup number could arrived holy lands must substantially less ude harsh desert killings jewish tribes way aware killings jewish tribes desert point typical thinking arabs still today act manner describe , like nomadic people occupying land , killing plundering regularity , others somehow progressed time surprising arabs often accuse others \( \) things quite familiar civil rights violations , religious discrimination , ethnic cleansing , land theft , torture murder precisely mechanism work leads people say jewish tribes killing desert , even without support ludicrous suggestion jake livni jake bony1 bony com ten years , george bush american occupied new york replaced jimmy carter opinions employer opinions standard failed president
jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) subject us consider yigal arens dangerous humanity organization department redundancy department lines 31 article news cso uiuc edu eshneken ux4 cso uiuc edu \( edward shnekendorf \) writes come ! arabs sympathetic palestinian war israel would n't bet arab governments generally n't care much palestineans struggle find useful political purposes back home happy leave palestineans largely israeli control leaves job controlling israelis israelis n't like job king hussein jordan liked managed kill rate thousands per month started intifada jordan governments syria , lebanon egypt feel similarly however , proclaiming public support palestinean war israel criticism deep problems home lends air legitimacy even brutal arab tyrants arab people probably n't much sympathetic palestineans shown willingness plunder jordan , lebanon kuwait viewed suspicion elsewhere might still right sympathy war israel , suspect many arabs , far removed immediate border israel \( e g kuwait \) , could n't care less jake livni jake bony1 bony com ten years , george bush american occupied new york replaced jimmy carter opinions employer opinions standard failed president
ohayon jcpltyo jcpl co jp \( tsiel ohayon \) subject many israeli soldiers take kill 5 yr old child \? organization james capel pacific limited , tokyo japan lines 63 jle great writes jle q many occupying israeli soldiers \( terrorists \) jle take kill 5 year old native child \? jle four jle two fasten arms , one shoots face , jle one writes false report couple months ago jle wrote terrible c program \( would never passed compilation \) one describes jle great 8 cut save jle c 8 include stdio h include signal h define loser 0x01 define childish 0x01 define 0x01 define vulgar 0x01 define mossad agent 0x01 define j l e loser childish vulgar mossad agent static void abort \( \) printf \( even wanted , jle 's mother could n't abort program \) printf \( n n n n \) void main \( \) signal \( , abort \) printf \( program help jewish arab relations \( n \) printf \( hit c abort n \) infinite loop , jle never comes world \( j l e \) 8 cut 8 compile program unix machine try cc jle jle c make jle type jle prompt tried , works great tsiel 8 8 tsiel ohayon jcpl co jp receive e mail , please let employer may know soon possible , possible opinions , ! two percent zero almost nothing
eshneken ux4 cso uiuc edu \( edward shnekendorf \) subject ten questions israel organization university illinois urbana lines 23 backon vms huji ac il writes article 1483500349 igc apc org , cpr igc apc org \( center policy research \) writes 4 true israeli prisons number individuals tried secret identities , date trial imprisonment state secrets \? apart mordechai vanunu trial behind closed doors , one espionage case \( nutty professor nes biological institute k g b mole \) tried camera would n't exactly call state secret trial simply tried behind closed doors hate disappoint united states tried number espionage cases camera one us cases john pollard ed
b8ha b8ha musicb mcgill ca subject jews islam dr lines 99 nntp posting host vm1 mcgill ca organization mcgill university article cut right margin , try answer read article dps odin corp sgi com kaveh gate corp sgi com \( kaveh smith \) writes found jewish people creative jewish religion foundation christianity islam words judaism fathered religions islam turned father may say ironic threat almost gone , religion wars going raise thought idea believing one god , unite man kind come jews islam believe god , god killing \? like dr 's story \? going stop happening \? going deal many muslims would whole world \? would god get mad , since killed followers , believe god , heaven hell \? peacefull way ending saga \? judaism father islam many prophets , judaism ignores prophets later prophets including jesus christ \( christians muslims believe \) mohammed idea believing one god unite peoples however , note christianity islam reflect fact people different views rights non christians non muslims stated religion man kind needs religion , since sets rules regulations keeps society healthy state religion mostly sets rules people experienced know works society praying , keeps sole healthy god care man kinds pray , man kind hopes god help prays religion works mostly moral issues trys put away materialistic things life religious leaders need make living religion \? may corrupt , turn way make living e muslims pay 20 percent income guess gets cut ! supposed pay 6 income paid please note 6 personal basis poor , need pay \( quite contrary , money often goes poor country poor muslims around world \) also , money required human sense \( e muslim never knocks door ask money nobody makes list mosque make sure paid \( surely n't pass money around prayer services \) \) religion everybody planet earth respects , good toward helps one another , respect mother nature heaven hell created earth acts take today \? within every man good bad , could choose either one , see outcome choice prevent man kind going crazy religion stop another religious killing field , poor gods name \? thoughts \? think man kind would come senses , late \? p side think moses saw god mount \? would god go top mountain \? created earth , could anywhere \? top mountain \? people thought see god reach skies heavens \? god kept coming back middle east \? created god imagination \? jewish people told god , chosen ones \? god 's presence certainly earth , since god everywhere , god may show signs existence places well say sure god shown signs existence profit mohammad married jewish taught trade probably taught judaism quran mostly copy right taurah \( sp \? old \) think god wrote quran \? trade city islam think made center islamic world mohammad wanted expand trade business \? god put house \? qur'an copyright taurah muslims believe taurah , bible , qur'an originally contained much message , thus many however , taurah bible languages changed meaning time \( translation also reflects personal views translator \( \) qur'an still exists language revealed arabic therefore , know mankind changed meaning truly revealed mohammed time many scientific facts discovered traditional scientific methods much later development baby mother 's womb think religious stuff gone far man kind going hurt wise look david koresh , turned \? afraid bigger scale , jews muslims ending ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! god knows sure turn hope wo n't , happens , god religion needed sense keep people harmony keep good things , rather plotting others distruction one earth , one life one god let 's man kind good toward god help us peace please send mail read rest said yes , may god help us steve
mucit cs rochester edu \( bulent murtezaoglu \) subject armenia says could shoot turkish planes reply henrik quayle kpc com 's message tue , 20 apr 1993 23 24 49 gmt nntp posting host vein cs rochester edu organization computer science department , university rochester mucit vein cs rochester edu 1993apr20 kpc com article 1993apr20 kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes article mucit vein cs rochester edu , mucit cs rochester edu \( bulent murtezaoglu \) writes henrik country turks azeris consistantly want drag armenia henrik karabakh conflict azerbaijan bm gimme break capital letters , , pure nonsense bm seems short sighted armenians escalating hostilities henrik , armenians karabakh simply defending henrik want lay arms let azeris walk news reports 've seen say otherwise location motives wise caps n't change facts bm hoping turkey stay stop think moment , bm \? armenia n't need anyone drag conflict , bm part henrik armenians knew begining turks fully engaged henrik training azeris militarily fight karabakhi armenians \? , point break caps start talking defense etc \? n't know turkey though henrik karabakhi armenians lived homeland 3000 henrik years \( cut armenia given azeris stalin \) henrik ones directly involved conflict defending henrik azeri aggression bm huh \? n't expect azeri 's friendly forces fighting bm within borders \? henrik well , history sad remember , relocated azeris henrik armenian land karabakh stalin regime hear justifies bloodshed n years fact \? henrik last , hope u insists turkey stay henrik karabakh crisis repeat cyprus invasion never henrik occur bm 're playing full deck , \? would turkey invade \? henrik speculate sure turkey would stepped henrik armenia could would turkey \? realize local clash turkey never wished see happen \? turkey plans region , like economic revival , co operation etc good stuff words , 'd happy armenians trade barriers usenet rather killed would n't bm throwing cyprus around c g header bm hopes greek netters jump gun \? henrik absolutely ! merely trying emphasize many henrik cases , history repeats even one buys implicit premise , sane thing would try provoke turkey done '74 'd democratic government instead bunch idiots athens time , everybody would stayed home families wish go cyprus quarrel , suspect 've said accurate also palatable parties involved bm yes indeed turkey military prowess intervene , wishes bm , however , diplomatic power stop hostilities bring bm parties negotiating table 's hard armenians bm attacking azeri towns henrik , let understand plain words saying turkey henrik wants peaceful end conflict ! ! think want \? war , death destruction \? henrik believe see , allow believe might see henrik , far attacking , see gun pointing henrik head \? sit watch defend \( fat chance \) \? kind childish rhetoric n't help henrik remember azeris armenians baku \? henrik acts especially mothers children mean henrik burning people alive ! , azeri come give description similar stuff perpetrated armenians one hash stuff like often keep hatred alive , right \? bm armenian leaders lacking recognize bm futility armed conflict convince nation compromise bm leads stability much better military 's bm going cause incessant henrik armenians karabakh want peace republic henrik asking much simply want get back taken away henrik given azeris stalin well obviously n't getting anywhere current methods asking \( peaceful 'd say \) bm think 10 20 years line newly independent bm countries need develop economically neither one going wipe bm people neighbors , would better bm keep bad blood minimal \? henrik n't get wrong also want peaceful solution henrik conflict azeris realize , armenians henrik karabakh defend n't know want solution want exchange slogans peace n't 's happening right , furthermore 's happening right n't peace spend days nights raving 'right' armenian position i'm sure 'll others 'd happy talk arguing side entrenched positions lead war , people want peace sit talk compromise armenia n't strong enough exercise 'we think 're right , bombs , 'll whatever want , ' style foreign relations yes type stalin caps , give one sided atrocity stories etc peace need willing talk side personally choose course , usenet people power n't childish bm belong armenian diaspora , keep mind strikes bm fancy map costing local armenians dearly terms bm blood future henrik , taking different turns armenia henrik grab land azerbaijan armenians karabakh henrik simply defending solution set azeri 's would disagree , maps 've seen support 'd saying n't seem likely solution reached manner bm 's easy comfortable abroad bm feelings turks armenians bm armenia n k , people seem hate bm neighbors , maybe 3000 years sooner 's peace bm region better everyone else 'd push bm compromise instead hitting caps lock spreading bm inflammatory half truths henrik decide peace initiative absolutely henrik n't look read posting would seem spew mis information man , also talk one might avoid fair \? henrik , meantime , take care , henrik wiped case era 1915 20 henrik armenian massacres n't realize say thing 'the turkish massacres ' yes , boys girls , let 's always talk bad nasty things let 's 're overwhelmed anger , let 's kids also hateful sounds crazy n't \? n't bm
javad hplabsz hpl hp com \( mash javad \) subject news briefs kh 1026 organization ye sar e lines 40 article sehari iastate edu farzin ntt jp \( farzin mokhtarian \) writes 1026 dr namaki , deputy minister health stated infant mortality \( one year old \) iran went 120 per thousand revolution 33 per thousand end 1371 \( last month \) dr ba ! wait teenagers kill ! dr namaki also stated revolution children received protect various deseases figure reached end 1371 huh \? visit mohammad , prime minister malaysia , iran , agreements cooperation areas industry , trade , education tourism signed according one agreement , iran charge building malaysia 's natural gas network yup also granted great deal reconstruction houses buildings war torn areas malaysia , one industries really construction , unemployed youth , give money malaysia iranians farzin mokhtarian mash javad
shaig think com \( shai guday \) subject basil , opinions \? \( water brain \) organization thinking machines corporation , cambridge , usa lines 40 distribution world nntp posting host composer think com article 1993apr15 thunder mcrcim mcgill edu , hasan mcrcim mcgill edu writes article 1993apr15 nysernet org , astein nysernet org \( alan stein \) writes guess hasan finally revealed source claim israel diverted water lebanon imagination alan h stein astein israel nysernet org mr water head , never said israel diverted lebanese rivers , fact said israel went southern lebanon make sure water used lebanese side , water would run jordan river israel use ! head course posting hard evidence facts much difficult bothered substantiate way basil , know evidence would support \? imagine news report ancient times , hasan writing newsflash cairo ap \( ancient press \) israel today denied egypt red sea typical display israelite , leader israelite slave revolt , former prince moses , parted red sea action estimated caused damage environment egyptian authorities said thousands fisherman denied livelihood parted waters pharaoh 's brave successful glorious attempt cause waters red sea return normal state unfortunately suffered heavy casualties hasan shai guday stealth bombers , os software engineer thinking machines corp winged ninjas skies cambridge ,
ctstateu edu \( angelos karageorgiou greek combination \) subject turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece \( armenia azeris \) nntp posting host ctstateu edu organization southern connecticut state university , new lines 35 ok aykut , greek torched , people died happened oh , 5 years ago greeks islands , allowed churches , instead turkey turned church warehouse , got picture greeks , call trabzon sampson , spoke 2 thousand year language , left still \? start another flamefest , start quoting argic , somebody else \? , please think know hard thing somebody equipped , try nevertheless turks greece badly mistreated come elected two , one two , representatives greek government \? come free \( absolutely free \) hospitalization education \? turks turkey much \? every right shout , untill also move greece enjoy privileges forget , study foreign university , poor tiling earth sweat btw aziz still writing poetry \? 'd like read new stuff also guy wrote mountains \? please respond kindly last two questions , interested finding books two people kai opinions expressed nobody else 's angelos karageorgiou mine , mine , , , \( \( \( live long carrier mail sent , used manner whatsoever may repost parts messages whole messages disagree , please exercise freedom speech n't send anything
hernlem chess ncsu edu \( brad hernlem \) subject go hezbollah ! reply hernlem chess ncsu edu \( brad hernlem \) organization ncsu chem eng lines 128 article 2bce0918 6105 news service uci edu , tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) writes article apr15 175334 72079 yuma acns colostate edu bh437292 lance colostate edu writes terrorist camp israelis like view villages small communities kids playing soccer streets , women preparing lunch , men playing cards , etc young men , usually aged 17 30 years members lebanese resistance even inhabitants village know , secretive , people often suspect young men supported financially iran time sneak arms ammunitions occupied zone set booby traps israeli patrols every time israeli soldier killed injured traps , israel retalliates indiscriminately bombing villages choosing often killing innocent civilians tried true method utilized guerilla terrorists groups conduct operations midst local populace , thus forcing opposing state possible harm innocent civilians search , order avoid deaths civilians , abandon search certainly people use population cover also dragging innocent civilians harm 's way suggesting , guerillas use population cover , israel totally back \? easiest way get away attacking another use innocent shield hope respects innocent lives \? tell tim , guerillas wrong \? assuming using civilians cover , killing soldiers country \? buffer zone prevent attacks israel , working \? neccessary israeli guns pound lebanese villages \? kill try infiltrate buffer zone \? see , shelling villages called retaliation getting back getting even n't make sense shell villages least shows reckless disregard israeli government lives civilians israel insists called security zone necessary protection northern israel , pay price occupation blood soldiers israel interested peace , withdraw land \? whole bit attacks israel neighboring arab states start \? also hope happen , occur arab states show prepared take responsibility duty stop guerilla attacks israel soil prove \( provide guaratees \) , way israel going accept word past attitude tolerance towards anti israel guerillas residence israel willing accept word others , imho , business wasting others' time coming peace talks written newsgroup , real solution come result comprehensive peace settlement whereby israel withdraws borders peace keeping troops stationed along border insure one either side border shelled good lord , brad , basil think basil intelligent person respect writes basil person would gladly call friend , however , lebanese , seem suspect realistic solution , time israel realize concept buffer zone aimed protecting northern cities failed fact caused much israeli deaths occasional shelling northern israel would resulted perhaps aware , communities people , feeling better many us die fighting attack us die silently accept fate , however , call israel see sense suffering fewer casualties , suggest apply palestinian , arab islamic groups tim , ignoring fact palestinians lebanon disarmed hezbollah remains independent militia hezbollah attack israel except times idf burned sheikh mosavi , wife , young son course , israel would withdraw lebanon stop assassinating people shelling villages would n't make lebanese mad furthermore , hezbollah subsequently disarmed , would possible lebanese government proven capable controlling disarming militias parts lebanon basil without support , active involvement , syria , lebanon would able accomplish occurred syria leaves say lebanon able retain control \? syria stays thay may even dangerous israel tim , last time recall trouble syrian border \? lately , eh \? israel knows well syrians able restrain would use territory control attack israel lebanon would better syria israel borders , presence syrian troops lebanon meant sharp decrease attacks israeli territory \( israeli troops lebanon , however please note distinction \) past two years tim view entire matter far serenely one sided selectively naive disagree , basil always seemed cool headed person , slow anger \( certainly \) important actual witness things end israeli guns israeli government would remember like roles reversed perhaps would moderate retaliation brad hernlem \( hernlem chess ncsu edu \)
tankut iastate edu \( sabri atan \) subject turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece \( armenia azeris \) reply tankut iastate edu \( sabri atan \) organization iowa state university lines 81 article 1993apr15 174657 6176 news uiowa edu , mau herky cs uiowa edu \( mau napoleon \) writes article 1993apr15 iastate edu , tankut iastate edu \( sabri atan \) well , panos , mr tamamidis \? , way put turks bear responsibility things happening today hard believe somebody trying objective comes conflicts like countries cannot blame one side , always bad guys sides anatolia ww1 anyway \? think right \? couple millions greeks living asia minor 1923 someone protect us \? \? saying conflicts started one side aggressive ither always suffering sad \( \) still trying compromise remember action turkish government removing visa requirement greeks come turkey thought positive attempt make relations better compromise , invasion cyprus , involment turkey greek politics , refusal turkey accept 12 miles territorial waters stated international law , properties greeks konstantinople , ownership islands greek lake , sorry , aegean things compromise greeks mentioned would n't talk educated people never met know ! bad person turkey politics business , business turks comes individuals hatred \? person supports policies turkish goverment directly bad person nationality makes bad , support actions goverment make bad people hate supporter policies turkish goverment must pay price makes think kind brainwashing going greece would educated person treat every person nation way \? tell history books things learn greek turkish encounters schooling take easy ! tankut atan tankut iastate edu achtung , baby ! need brainwashing turn people turks talk greeks , arabs , slavs , kurds people luck turkish occupation talk murders , rapes , distruction learn turks history books , learn people experienced first hand turkish friendliness napoleon well , napoleon kind people preventing peace world first , n't answer question asked end posting told bullshit throughout posting positive point issue , filled hatred , filled emotions \? forget , n't think worth discuss issue tankut atan tankut iastate edu achtung , baby !
dshal vmd cso uiuc edu subject clintons views jerusalem organization c c lines 10 seems president clinton recognize jerusalem israels capitol still keeping diplomatic rear door open stating parties concerned decide city 's final status even endorse clintons vie w \( course \) , definitely matter decided upon israel \( participating neighboring \) see real conflict stating views , expect better politicians david dshal vmd cso uiuc edu university illinois dept anim sci 220 1201 w gregory dr urbana , il 61801
amehdi src honeywell com \( hossien amehdi \) subject go hezbollah ! ! nntp posting host src honeywell com organization honeywell systems research center lines 27 article bradski retina bu edu bradski retina bu edu \( gary bradski \) writes 15 apr 93 03 13 49 gmt , amehdi src honeywell com \( hossien amehdi \) said merley pointing side also suffering like said , i'm arab , say lebanese , bet would defende homeland invader means syrians \? iranian agents \? israeli invaders \? gary bradski bradski park bu edu cognitive neural systems boston university v v 111 st , boston 02215 617 353 6426 n't even agree opinions die ! say invader , n't \? want , perhaps neural net design countries involved lebanon nodes \? \) \( cognitive neural systems \) 's case , would put different weights country net
hernlem chess ncsu edu \( brad hernlem \) subject basil , opinions \? \( water brain \) reply hernlem chess ncsu edu \( brad hernlem \) organization ncsu chem eng lines 44 article early bird think com , shaig think com \( shai guday \) writes article 1993apr15 thunder mcrcim mcgill edu , hasan mcrcim mcgill edu writes article 1993apr15 nysernet org , astein nysernet org \( alan stein \) writes guess hasan finally revealed source claim israel diverted water lebanon imagination alan h stein astein israel nysernet org mr water head , never said israel diverted lebanese rivers , fact said israel went southern lebanon make sure water used lebanese side , water would run jordan river israel use ! head course posting hard evidence facts much difficult bothered substantiate way basil , know evidence would support \? imagine news report ancient times , hasan writing newsflash cairo ap \( ancient press \) israel today denied egypt red sea typical display israelite , leader israelite slave revolt , former prince moses , parted red sea action estimated caused damage environment egyptian authorities said thousands fisherman denied livelihood parted waters pharaoh 's brave successful glorious attempt cause waters red sea return normal state unfortunately suffered heavy casualties hehehe btw , litani river flow west south \? think waters stay entirely within lebanese territory hasan says jordan river makes sense , case hasbani river , hand , flows jordan , mistaken brad hernlem \( hernlem chess ncsu edu \)
oaf zurich ai mit edu \( oded feingold \) subject news miss , apr 15 organization artificial intelligence lab lines 18 distribution world reply oaf zurich ai mit edu nntp posting host klosters ai mit edu reply arf genesis mcs com 's message 15 apr 1993 22 51 03 0500 sorry , arf dog , news suppressed israeli national volleyball team repeatedly spiked let lesson others invoke wrath sports nuts \( brits lead way regard , 220 casualties last 2 years \) anyway , yigal would never sue life \( presumably \) pristine intimate details could revealed without harm anyone might even good instruction people think , would sue ! hate way sports dominates media anyway , last 3 adl agents watching die boredom filing reports 've damaged atlanta operation something fierce
bf3833 pyuxe cc bellcore com \( feigenbaum , benjamin \) subject clintons views jerusalem organization bellcore , livingston , nj summary verify statements lines 21 article dshal vmd cso uiuc edu , dshal vmd cso uiuc edu writes seems president clinton recognize jerusalem israels capitol still keeping diplomatic rear door open stating parties concerned decide city 's final status even endorse clintons vie w \( course \) , definitely matter decided upon israel \( participating neighboring \) see real conflict stating views , expect better politicians david dshal vmd cso uiuc edu university illinois dept anim sci 220 1201 w gregory dr urbana , il 61801 trying avoid discussion whether clintons views endorsed trying find whether newspaper article correct making statements president obtaining information made statements thank ben
b8ha000 b8ha musicb mcgill ca subject zionism racism lines 8 nntp posting host vm1 mcgill ca organization mcgill university syria 's expansion , author writes un thought zionism racism wrong correct first time , zionism racism thankfully , mcgill daily \( student newspaper mcgill \) proud enough print article saying want copy , send mail steve
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece \( armenia azeris \) reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 153 article 1993apr20 news uiowa edu mau herky cs uiowa edu \( mau napoleon \) writes called konstantinoupolis 320 ad 1920s 's 1600 years many people alive today born city called konstantinoupolis know n't make sense , since sense , anyway \? striking bigoted racist attitude certain greeks still exists day greeks insist even today , 537 year old capital ottoman empire called rightful name istanbul , half millennium old moniker \( whatever \) ' everyone knows new york city called 'new dutch people persist calling today name long gone , replaced china 's traded name long ago republic santa 's old colonial capital became changes accepted officially everyone world , greeks still determined calling turkish istanbul name ' one explain total intransigence \? makes greeks different mortals \? 18 year old questionable democracy \? n't seem reconcile fact , instance , istanbul changed hands 537 years ago 1453 ad , predates discovery new world , 39 years declaration u independence 1776 come 284 years later n't , half millennium considered enough time ' called turkish city \? logic greek reasoning , \? long one sit ancient civilization \? ancient greece exist , 16 civilizations existed soil anatolia live illusion mentality allows rationalize cyprus greek island history book shows ever belonged ottoman turks , stock period well 300 years fact , prior acquisition , following bloody naval battles ad , island cyprus belonged , invariably , several nations , , , egyptians , ottoman turks , course order , owned territory , never possession government greece even one day history world moreover , cyprus located 1500 miles greek mainland , 40 miles turkiye 's southern coastline saddam hussein claims kuwait iraqi territory greek cypriot government terrorist greek governments think cyprus also part greek 'arromdians' involved grandiose hallucination wake sweet confront reality , wishful thinking unproductive , facts count , jews survived assaults southeastern europe fled particularly salonica , whose jewish population increased substantially result , 28 , 000 1876 90 , 000 , half total population , though even increased persecution local greeks led many jews flee elsewhere ottoman empire , particularly great port izmir despite pressure ottomans foreign jews alike , ritual murders assaults christians jews went greek efforts jewish population salonica culminated 1912 1913 , following greek conquest salonica first balkan war , many jews , either killed leaving though greece obligated post world war treaties allow jews minorities use languages education practice religions without , law issued 1923 inhabitants working sunday , stimulating new jewish exodus intended 1932 1934 series anti semitic riots salonica , quarter , remaining jews lived , burned ground followed regulations requiring use greek prohibiting hebrew judea spanish jewish schools start made also land principal jewish cemetery salonica use new university order derive jews 47 killing driving large numbers jews , greeks left substantial greek majority city first time , starting salonica jewry way final nazis occupation greece starting 1941 salonica izmir course places refuge jewish refugees entering empire last century existence istanbul , edirne , parts anatolia received thousands jews refugees received helped government sultan thousands muslims accompanied flight similar persecutions wherever balkan christian states gained independence expanded russian conquest caucasus starting late eighteenth century , particularly war , combined independence movements southeastern europe caused much suffering flight among jews caused thousands helpless , ill , poverty stricken muslim refugees accompany ever shrinking boundaries ottoman empire , istanbul government struggling vainly house feed best could 1850 many 800 , 000 tatars , , muslims north east black sea entered anatolia alone , many 200 , 000 came next twenty years , 474 , 389 refugees entered 1876 1877 result ottoman wars russia balkan states , equal number gaining refuge european portions empire 47 robert , structure de la de la fin du , rh 534 \( 1980 \) , 391 92 vii , 762 joseph \( salonica \) aiu \( paris \) 2 , 12 may 1903 \( aiu archives c 43 \) 2775 , 10 january 1900 \( aiu archives c 41 \) , describing daily battles jewish greek children streets salonica , director ecole moise allatini , salonica , aiu \( paris \) , , 1 december 1909 \( aiu archives c 48 \) , describing greek attacks jews , jewish shops manufacturers , greek press campaigns leading blood libel attacks cohen , ecole moise allatini , salonica , aiu \( paris \) , 4 , 4 december 1912 \( aiu archives c 49 \) describes week terror followed greek army occupation salonica 1912 , soldiers jewish quarters destroying jewish synagogues , accompanied described local greek population local jews muslims , president aiu salonica , reported aiu \( paris \) , 3 , 25 july 1913 \( aiu archives c 51 \) 'it irregulars \( \) massacred , pillaged burned army soldiers , chief police , high civil officials also took active part horrors ' , moise \( salonica \) aiu \( paris \) \( 20 august 1913 \) \( aiu archives c 51 \) describes greek pillage jewish quarter night 18 19 august 1913 \( aiu alliance israelite universelle , paris \) serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject exact , 2 5 million muslims exterminated armenians reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 287 article appserv eng sun com linden positive eng sun com \( peter van der linden \) writes 1 , turks kill armenians \? , jews kill germans \? even make armenians laugh appropriate analogy jewish holocaust might systematic extermination entire muslim population independent republic armenia consisted least 30 40 percent population republic memoirs armenian army officer participated eye witnessed atrocities published u 1926 title 'men like ' references abound \( rachel bortnick jewish times june 21 , 1990 \) 2 armenians massacred turks \? yes exact , armenians slaughtered 2 5 million muslim people 1914 1920 source 1 mccarthy , j , muslims minorities , population ottoman anatolia end empire , new york university press , new york , 1983 , pp 133 144 source 2 hovannisian , richard g , armenia road independence , 1918 university california press \( berkeley los angeles \) , 1967 , p 13 source hovannisian , richard g armenia road independence , 1918 university california press \( berkeley los angeles \) , 1967 , p 13 addition kars batum oblasts empire increased area transcaucasia 130 , 000 square miles estimated population entire region 1886 4 , 700 , 000 , 940 , 000 \( 20 percent \) armenian , 1 , 200 , 000 \( 25 percent \) georgian , 2 , 220 , 000 \( 45 percent \) moslem latter group , 1 , 140 , 000 tatars paradoxically , barely one third transcaucasia 's armenians lived erevan guberniia , christians constituted majority three seven uezds erevan uezd , administrative center province , 44 , 000 armenians compared 68 , 000 moslems time russian census 1897 , however , armenians established scant majority , 53 percent , guberniia risen 1916 60 percent , 670 , 000 1 , 120 , 000 inhabitants impressive change province 's ethnic character notwithstanding , , eve creation armenian republic , solid block 370 , 000 tartars continued dominate southern districts , outskirts ereven border persia \( see also map 1 historic armenia map 4 administrative subdivisions transcaucasia \) 1920 , '0' percent turk closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape tartars proceeded work extermination troops surrounded village village little resistance offered artillery knocked huts heaps stone dust villages became untenable inhabitants fled fields , bullets bayonets completed work tartars escaped course found refuge mountains succeeded crossing border turkey rest killed whole length borderland russian armenia nakhitchevan akhalkalaki hot plains ararat cold mountain plateau north dotted mute mournful ruins tartar villages quiet , villages , except howling wolves jackals visit paw scattered bones dead ohanus appressian men like p 202 references eminent authors field middle eastern history eyewitnesses armenian genocide 2 5 million muslims 1 armenian revolutionary movement louise nalbandian , university california press , berkeley , los angeles , 1975 2 diplomacy imperialism 1890 1902 william lenger , professor history , harward university , boston , alfred knopt , new york , 1951 3 turkey europe sir charles elliot , edward arnold , london , 1900 4 chatnam house version middle eastern studies elie kedouri , praeger publishers , new york , washington , 1972 5 rising crescent ernest jackh , farrar reinhart , inc , new york toronto , 1944 6 spiritual political evolutions islam felix valyi , mogan , paul , trench truebner co , london , 1925 7 struggle power moslem asia e alexander powell , century co , new york , london , 1924 8 struggle transcaucasia feruz kazemzadeh , yale university press , new , conn , 1951 9 history ottoman empire modern turkey \( 2 volumes \) stanford j shaw , cambridge university press , cambridge , new york , melbourne , 1977 10 western question greece turkey arnold j toynbee , constable co , ltd , london , bombay sydney , 1922 11 caliph 's last heritage sir mark sykes , macmillan co , london , 1915 12 men like leonard hartill , bobbs co , indianapolis , 1928 13 adventures near east , 1918 22 rawlinson , dodd , meade co , 1925 14 world alive , personal story robert dunn , crown publishers , inc , new york , 1952 15 sardarapat serves lousanne avetis aharonian , armenian review magazine , volume 15 \( fall 1962 \) 17 \( spring 1964 \) 16 armenia road independence richard g hovanessian , university california press , berkeley , california , 1967 17 rebirth turkey clair price , thomas seltzer , new york , 1923 18 caucasian battlefields w b allen paul muratoff , cambridge , 1953 19 partition turkey harry n howard , h fertig , new york , 1966 20 king crane commission harry n howard , beirut , 1963 21 united states policy partition turkey laurence evans , john hopkins university press , baltimore , 1965 22 british documents related turkish war independence gothard jaeschke 1 neside kerem demir , bir sehid anasina tarihin soyledikleri turkiye'nin ermeni meselesi , hulbe basim yayin , ankara , 1982 \( ingilizce birinci baski 1980 , armenian question turkey \) 2 veysel eroglu , ermeni mezalimi , sebil yayinevi , istanbul , 1978 3 alper gazigiray , osmanlilardan gunumuze kadar vesikalarla ermeni teroru'nun kaynaklari , gozen kitabevi , istanbul , 1982 4 dr kirzioglu fahrettin , kars ili cevresinde ermeni mezalimi , kardes matbaasi , ankara , 1970 c basbakanlik osmanli arsivi , babiali , istanbul \) yildiz esas evraki b \) yildiz perakende c \) irade defterleri \) cemaat gayr muslime defterleri e \) meclisi vukela mazbatalari f \) dahiliye nezareti , kalem mahsus dosyalari g \) dahiliye nezareti , sifre defterleri h \) babiali evrak odasi siyasi kartonlar \) babiali evrak odasi muhimme kartonlari c disisleri bakanligi , hazine evrak , defterdarlik \) harb umumi b \) muteferrik kartonlar british archives \) parliamentary papers \( hansard \) commons lords b \) foreign office confidential print various collections c \) foreign office 424 239 253 turkey correspondence annual reports \) foreign office 608 e \) foreign office 371 , political intelligence general correspondence f \) foreign office 800 240 , ryan papers g \) foreign office 800 151 , curzon papers h \) foreign office 839 eastern conference lausanne 53 files india office records library , blackfriars road , london \) l political security 10 851 855 \( five boxes \) , turkey treaty peace 1918 1923 b \) l p 10 1031 , near east turkey greece lausanne conference , 1921 1923 c \) l p 11 154 \) l p 11 1031 french archives archives du ministere des affaires entrangeres , quai d'orsay , paris \) documents diplomatiques affaires armeniens 1895 1914 collections b \) guerre 1914 1918 turquie legion d'orient c \) levant , 1918 1929 armenie official publications , published documents , diplomatic correspondence , agreements , minutes others turkey \( ottoman empire republic turkey \) akarli , e \( ed \) belgelerle tanzimat , \( istanbul , 1978 \) \( gn kur , atase \) askeri tarih belgeleri dergisi , v xxxi \( 81 \) , \( dec 1982 \) askeri tarih belgeleri dergisi , v xxxii \( 83 \) , \( dec 1983 \) hocaoglu , \( ed \) ittihad anasir osmaniye heyeti nizamnamesi , \( istanbul , 1912 \) meray , l \( trans ed \) lozan baris konferansi tutanaklar belgeler , \( ankara , 1978 \) , 2 vols meray , l olcay \( ed \) osmanli imparatorlugu'nun cokus belgeleri mondros birakismasi , sevr andlasmasi , ilgili belgeler , \( ankara , 1977 \) \( osmanli devleti , dahiliye nezareti \) aspirations et agissements revolutionnaires des comites armeniens avant et apres la proclamation de la constitution ottomane , \( istanbul , 1917 \) ermeni komitelerinin amal hareket ihtilaliyesi ilan mesrutiyetten evvel sonra , \( istanbul , 1916 \) idare umumiye vilayet kanunu , \( istanbul , 1913 \) muharrerat umumiye mecmuasi , v \( istanbul , 1914 \) muharrerat umumiye mecmuasi , v ii \( istanbul , 1915 \) muharrerat umumiye mecmuasi , v iii \( istanbul , 1916 \) muharrerat umumiye mecmuasi , v iv \( istanbul , 1917 \) \( osmanli devleti , hariciye nezareti \) imtiyazat ecnebiyye'nin lagvindan dolayi memurine teblig olunacak talimatname , \( istanbul , 1915 \) \( osmanli devleti , harbiye nezareti \) islam ahalinin ducar olduklari mezalim hakkinda vesaike mustenid malumat , \( istanbul , 1919 \) \( iv ordu \) aliye divan harbi orfisinde tedkik olunan mesele yi siyasiye hakkinda izahat , \( istanbul , 1916 \) turkozu , h k \( ed \) osmanli sovyet belgeleriyle ermeni mezalimi , \( ankara , 1982 \) turkiye buyuk millet meclisi gizli celse zabitlari , \( ankara , 1985 \) , 4 vols russia adamof , e e \( ed \) sovyet devlet arsivi belgeleriyle anadolu'nun taksimi plani , \( tran h rahmi , ed h mutlucag \) , \( istanbul , 1972 \) altinay , r iki komite iki kital , \( istanbul , 1919 \) kafkas yollarinda hatiralar tahassusler , \( istanbul , 1919 \) turkiye 'de katolik propagandasi , turk tarihi encumeni mecmuasi , v xiv 82 5 \( sept 1924 \) asaf muammer harb mesulleri , \( istanbul , 1918 \) akboy , c birinci dunya harbinde turk harbi , v osmanli imparatorlugu'nun siyasi askeri hazirliklari harbe girisi , \( gn kur , ankara , 1970 \) akgun , general harbord'un anadolu gezisi \( ermeni meselesi'ne dair \) raporu kurtulus savasi baslangicinda , \( istanbul , 1981 \) akin , turk devrim tarihi , \( istanbul , 1983 \) aksin , jon turkler ittihad terakki , \( istanbul , 1976 \) basar , z \( ed \) ermenilerden gorduklerimiz , \( ankara , 1974 \) ermeniler hakkinda makaleler derlemeler , \( ankara , 1978 \) belen , f birinci dunya harbinde turk harbi , \( ankara , 1964 \) deliorman , turklere karsi ermeni komitecileri , \( istanbul , 1980 \) ege , n n \( ed \) prens sabahaddin hayati ilmi mudafaalari , \( istanbul , 1977 \) ercikan , ermenilerin bizans osmanli imparatorluklarindaki rolleri , \( ankara , 1949 \) gurun , k 'ermeni sorunu yahut bir sorun nasil yaratilir \? ' , turk tarihinde ermeniler sempozyumu , \( izmir , 1983 \) hocaoglu , arsiv vesikalariyla tarihte ermeni mezalimi ermeniler , \( istanbul , 1976 \) karal , e osmanli tarihi , v v \( 1983 , 4th ed \) v vi \( 1976 , 2nd ed \) v vii \( 1977 , 2nd ed \) v viii \( 1983 , 2nd ed \) ankara kurat , osmanli imparatorlugu'nun paylasilmasi , \( ankara , 1976 \) orel , yuca ermenilerce talat pasa'ya atfedilen telgraflarin icyuzu , \( ankara , 1983 \) also english translation ahmad , f young turks committee union progress turkish politics , \( oxford , 1969 \) serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject , genocide azeri turks x soviet armenia karabag reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 69 article 1993apr20 164517 20876 kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes last , hope u insists turkey stay karabakh crisis repeat cyprus invasion never occur terminal cold \? karabag 'turkish' remain 'turkish' , almost end 20th century , whole community , azeri turks x soviet armenia karabag , facing forced assimilation , torture murder one hand forced exodus , expulsion genocide , ethnic religious background one ask world community really powerless \? human rights advocates \? decent people \? going let human tragedy go nothing \? number azeris murdered terrorist armenian army savage gangs increasing one hand wish distort truth , beg mercy turkiye age melbourne 6 3 92 helen agdam , azerbaijan , thursday exact number victims still unclear , little doubt azeri civilians massacred armenian fighters mountains nagorno karabakh last week refugees enclave town khojaly , azeri border town agdam , give largely consistent accounts enemies attacked homes night 25 february , chased fled shot surrounding forests yesterday , saw 75 freshly dug graves one cemetery addition four mutilated corpses shown mosque arrived agdam late tuesday also saw women children bullet wounds makeshift hospital string railway carriages khojaly , azeri settlement enclave mostly populated armenians , population 6000 mr rashid mamedov commander police agdam , said 500 escaped town rest \? might taken prisoner , said , fled many bodies still lying mountains azeris short helicopters retrieve believed 1000 perished , cold temperatures low minus 10 degrees one refugee , , described khojaly residents first thought attack routine shooting become accustomed four years conflict saw armenians convoy armored personnel carriers , realised could hope defend machineguns grenades , fled forests small hours , massacre started mr , believes wife two children taken prisoner , repeated many refugees said troops former soviet army helped armenians attack khojaly opinion , saw eyes serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject armenians get away genocide 204 , 000 azeri people reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 163 article 1993apr20 kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes da armenia involved fighting azarbaijan armenian da soldiers mainland armenia shelling towns azarbaijan well , opinion ! related 'arromdian' asala sdpa arf terrorism revisionism triangle \? feel simply act fascist armenian governmental crony forum sadly mistaken duly embarrassed lecture another historical revisionist genocide apologist , fact time , fascist x soviet armenian government get away genocide 204 , 000 azeri men , women children chance sunday times 8 march 1992 fill azeris head war thomas goltz , first report massacre armenian soldiers worst violence since breakup soviet union , reports agdam khojaly used barren town , empty shops dirt roads yet still home thousands people , happier times , tended fields flocks geese last week wiped map sickening reports azerbaijani border town agdam , bodies piled , little doubt khojaly stark gullies around site terrible massacre since soviet union broke apart last visit khojaly january people predicting fate grim resignation , mother four board helicopter us town , called community sitting ducks , ready get shot family among victims massacre february 26 armenians taken villages , one one , government nothing , 55 , father five , said next drive us kill us , said , wife couple , three sons three daughters killed assault , many people spoken close armenian lines knew would cross road , first units column ran across hell broke loose bullets raining sides entered trap azeri defenders picked one one survivors say armenian forces began slaughter , firing anything moved gullies video taken azeri cameraman , wailing crying filmed body body , showed grizzly trail death leading towards higher , ground villagers sought refuge armenians armenians shot shot shot , said omar , lying hospital agdam wounds saw wife daughter fall right people wandered hospital looking news loved ones vented fury foreigners daughter , son \? mother raped butchered lost azerbaijan said many 1 , 000 refugees killed tried flee armenians denied , saying civilians caught crossfire source times , 2 march 1992 corpses litter hills karabakh anatol lieven comes fire flying azerbaijani forces investigate alleged mass killings refugees armenian troops swooped low snow covered hills nagorno karabagh saw scattered corpses apparently , refugees shot ran azerbaijani film places flew , shown journalists afterwards , showed dozens corpses lying various parts hills azerbaijanis claim many 1000 died mass killing azerbaijanis fleeing town khodjaly , seized armenians last week 4 , 000 believed wounded , frozen death missing seven us cabin azerbaijani m24 attack helicopter flew investigate claims mass killings suddenly thump underside aircraft , red flash tracer ripped past starboard wing , helicopter rocked sharply swung round , deafening burst fire cannon wing helicopter crew returned fire fired armenian anti aircraft post swung round , tipped starboard appeared dive straight valley brown earth swooped around heads , helicopter swung round followed contours ground cannon fired repeated blasts later emerged civilian helicopter landed successfully east disputed enclave nagorno karabakh , pick dead , fact , attacked ground fire armenian helicopter seen armenian helicopter intermittently window , cannons firing , thought mistakenly side group western journalists search rescue flight become combat mission flight consisted civilian passenger helicopter two m24 soviet attack helicopters azerbaijani service , flying armour party second civilian helicopter 's job land mountains pick bodies sites mass killings attack helicopters give covering fire necessary operation showed striking sign disintegration soviet armed forces pilot russian officer azerbaijani official told us five former soviet military helicopters pilots fighting azerbaijan signed contracts fly us , said helicopter engaged combat probably flown brother officer russian pilot , fighting armenians taken 5pm saturday agdam , heated armenian controlled mountains karabakh , sheer white wall distance civilian helicopter picked four corpses , previous mission azerbaijani cameraman filmed several several dozen bodies took hurry speed back towards azerbaijani lines azerbaijani gunners last hill plain safety us passed back agdam , took look bodies civilian helicopter picked two old men small girl covered blood , limbs cold rigor shot russian pilot think tragedy , close shave , war nagorno karabakh \? gave us cheerful grin , politely declined answer ques tions , marched dinner serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject eve 78th anniversary turkish holocaust reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 232 article 1993apr20 kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes oy henrik \( \? \) , oy ignorance manifests awkward form intransigence i'm oy going spend time review recent history cyprus good ! ! go back references read wish fascist x soviet armenian government would well , prefer imagine american , european , jewish armenian scholars trying mislead 'arromdians' , guest source stanford j shaw , armenian collaboration invading russian armies 1914 , history ottoman empire modern turkey \( volume ii reform , revolution republic rise modern turkey , 1808 1975 \) \( london , cambridge university press 1977 \) pp 315 316 april 1915 dashnaks russian armenia organized revolt city van , whose 33 , 789 armenians comprised 42 3 percent population , closest armenian majority city empire leaving erivan april 28 , 1915 , armenian volunteers reached van may 14 organized carried general slaughter local muslim population next two days small ottoman garrison retreat southern side lake source world alive , personal story robert dunn crown publishers , inc , new york \( 1952 \) \( memoirs american officer witnessed armenian genocide 2 5 million muslim people \) p 361 \( seventh paragraph \) p 362 \( first paragraph \) 'the inside houses come look ' 'no , dammit ! stomach n't ' 'one turkish officer uniform must see ' trees mosque , open space 'i n't believe , said , followed nail door man pushed , spurred away , leaving check corpse thought , charge constant , teeth went inside place cool ashes , dark first , stone walls window rags mud floor around iron embers vented smoke roof beams black soot looked bare empty , inner room flies buzzed door swung shut behind saw came man 's body lying face , naked fifty years old left face rifle butt bashed eye one left slanted , tartars rather turks uniform gone , 'd proof , quickly went , mess slashed genitals p 363 \( first paragraph \) 'how many people lived \? ' 'oh , eight hundred ' see turk officers \? ' 'no , sir dawn tartar civilians mufti ' lieutenant , , small hours voice woke dro 's stood starlight officer anyone long furiously 'd never heard abruptly dro broke laughter , quick simple child 's cover sense guilt , thought , hoped somehow , despite boast , christian massacring horrible reverse would , armenian villagers poured miles around women plundered happily , like ravens picked carcass djul hauled every 's , last scrap food cloth , staggered away , packing pots , saddlebags , , even spinning wheels lot , dro , ' said back camp 'but must leave ' shook hands , captain said 'a , mon ' hours old scout plodded north across plains like lot 's wife looked back see smoke bathing , doubtless sack moslem villages line snow iran ' p 354 morning tea , dro officers spread map whole high region called karabakh deep tactics , spoke russian , got contempt allied zones distrust promises made tribal chiefs campaign shaped raids moslem villages p 358 three hours take , dro told 'd close three sides men foot shoot , use bayonets , said , rifle morale , dro put must keep moslems terror soldiers civilians \? asked difference , said dro armed , uniform women children \? fly others best may p 360 ridges circled wide , floors still hundreds feet , fog held , solid cotton flock lies , ' said dro , pointing men also attack sides ' , ee ! ' whistle lined rock edge bayonets clicked upon plunged , black followed staff , horde nose tail , bellies taking spur armenia action seemed like war , even though heard utica brass roar watched height , took ages djul show clear tsing machine gun fire took thumping batteries cattle , dogs , invisible , ate hunk cheese drank snow puddle mist last folded upward men shouted , first heard faintly came shrill wailing among cloud streaks rose darker smoke red house walls stone wattle , dry weeds roofs mosque stood clump trees , thick green crooked alleys fire , figures mounted foot ! ' shouted gunner others escape rocks , one twisted bronze shell nose , loaded , yanked breech cord , firing shots wasted , thought , afternoon looked vain fallen branch body shots white bursts shrapnel gullies drowned women 's cries length shooting got horse rode toward djul burned still little flame showed way steep tough , dense scrub finally flatter ground came suddenly , , smoldering houses across trampled wheat brothers arms leading animals , several calves lamb p 361 \( fourth paragraph \) corpses came next , first pretty child straight black hair , large eyes looked twelve years old lay stubble meal lay scattered sack 'd toting bayonet gone back , judged , blood around scant breasts one clot , small bullet wound , dress next boy ten less , rawhide jacket knee pants lay face path several huts one arm reached bowl 'd carried , upset upon dough steel neck , spine , , saw led around djul empty living till looked see beside dro 's german speaking colonel said tartars escaped dead p 358 stories armenian murdering turks czarist troops fled north hosts told duty keep tabs , turkish troop shifts , hidden arms , spies christian , red tartar coming spoke hell would break loose versailles put , threatened , six vilayets turkey control erevan armenia without armenians ! turks christian rule \? lips smacked irony droopy red moustache 's bloodshed smyrna bigger scale source u library congress general correspondence container 34 dashnaks power everything world keep pot boiling attacking kurds , turks tartars committing outrages moslems massacring moslems robbing destroying homes last two years armenians russian caucasus shown ability govern especially ability govern handle races power source k gurun , armenian file , \( london , nicosia , istanbul , 1985 \) many muslim villages destroyed soldiers armenian troops armed cannons machine guns eyes troops people according documented information , 28 muslim villages destroyed young muslim women taken kars , hundreds women children able flee villages beaten killed mountains source w e allen paul muratoff , caucasian battlefields , cambridge university press , 1953 , p 481 armenians found support among reds \( regarded tartars counter revolutionary elements \) fighting soon became massacre tartar population source general bronsart wrote follows article july 24 , 1921 issue newspaper deutsche since moslems capable bearing arms turkish army , easy organize terrible massacre armenians defenseless people , armenians attacking sides rear eastern army paralyzed front russians , attacking moslem folk region well source quoted general hamelin letter high commissioner , february 2 , 1919 , official history , les au levant , vol 1 , p 122 armenians burned destroyed many turkish villages punitive measures advance practically turkish villages retreat source john dewey , turkish tragedy , new republic , volume 40 , november 12 , 1928 , pp 268 269 armenians boasted raised army one hundred fifty thousand men fight civil war , burned least hundred turkish villages exterminated population need go \? serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
deniz mandolin ctr columbia edu \( deniz akkus \) subject armenia says could shoot turkish planes organization columbia university center telecommunications research x posted mandolin ctr columbia edu nntp posting host sol ctr columbia edu lines 46 article 1993apr20 kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes article 1993apr20 sol ctr columbia edu , deniz mandolin ctr columbia edu \( deniz akkus \) writes well , opinion ! course ! turkish azeris bark want since untrue however , sure guys would never brought armenia 's involvement karabakhi armenians heavy losses opinion valid due repeated capital letters words etc read \? new york times , publishing anti armenian articles nop , resources look , everyone knows aggressive turks azeris past armenians gona sit around watch fire works azeris taught turks armenians justified aggression since supposedly turks aggressive past \? n't follow logic da n't wish get cyprus discussion turkey right chance ! convince \( based reasons \) government right thing invade cyprus said n't wish get cyprus discussion give reasons turkey 's involvement also trying convince anything , seeing reason waste time da lastly , soc culture armenia \? vote yes da , free well , position agree serious let 's get soc culture armenia started peace mind \? deniz akkus
tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) subject zionism racism nntp posting host orion oac uci edu organization university california , irvine lines 17 article 20apr93 vm1 mcgill ca b8ha000 b8ha musicb mcgill ca writes syria 's expansion , author writes un thought zionism racism wrong correct first time , zionism racism thankfully , mcgill daily \( student newspaper mcgill \) proud enough print article saying want copy , send mail steve know paper well , see exercise selective morality judgement time recognizes religiously based government racist , simply built philosophy separate equal second class treatment minorities , continue known bias jewish nationalism racism , islam anywhere people allotted different rights according race , religion culture racist
friedenb silver egr msu edu \( gedaliah friedenberg \) subject jewish committee middle east \( \) organization college engineering , michigan state university lines 34 distribution world reply friedenb silver egr msu edu \( gedaliah friedenberg \) nntp posting host silver egr msu edu flipped local cable access channel \( channel community member broadcast whatever want 50 per half hour \) saw documentary \( use term loosely \) conflict west bank apparently made hand held camcorder \( quality terrible , camera really jumpy \) documentary \( sic \) told tales children died war jews martyrs regular sob story one victimized youth really wants get education big bad jews wo n't let go high school admittedly spent 4 years prison \( age 13 17 \) murdering jewish woman claims cause seen kind garbage lot sympathy palestinian cause \( many jews \) , think even many arabs would ashamed call documentary ! suprising part credits shown end address makers film named jewish comm middle east anybody heard \? make peace look like right wingers gedaliah friedenberg department mechanical engineering department , mechanics materials science michigan state university
friedenb silver egr msu edu \( gedaliah friedenberg \) subject zionism racism organization college engineering , michigan state university lines 26 distribution world reply friedenb silver egr msu edu \( gedaliah friedenberg \) nntp posting host silver egr msu edu article 20apr93 vm1 mcgill ca , b8ha000 b8ha musicb mcgill ca writes syria 's expansion , author writes un thought zionism racism wrong correct first time , zionism racism thankfully , mcgill daily \( student newspaper mcgill \) proud enough print article saying want copy , send mail want info claiming blacks brought earth 60 trillion years ago aliens plante , send literature nation islam \( 's group \) believe want info claiming holocaust never happened , send info ihr \( institute historical review david irving 's group \) , read dan gannon 's posts alt revisionism wanted put steve 's post company deserves steve gedaliah friedenberg department mechanical engineering department , mechanics materials science michigan state university
dzk cs brown edu \( danny keren \) subject ten questions israel organization brown university department computer science lines 21 cpr igc apc org \( center policy research \) writes 3 true israeli stocks nuclear weapons \? , could provide evidence \? yes , israel nuclear weapons however 1 \) use far restricted killing deer , lsd addicted soldiers 2 \) locked cellar factory , since lost key , one use anymore 3 \) even finds key , chief rabbis time lock bombs allow activated sabbath weeks follow victories jerusalem soccer team quick glance national league score table reveal strategic importance fact danny keren
steven surya cs ucla edu \( steven berson \) subject ten questions israel nntp posting host surya cs ucla edu organization ucla , computer science department lines 25 cpr igc apc org \( center policy research \) writes center policy research cpr subject ten questions israel would thankful live israel could help provide accurate answers following specific questions indeed provocative questions asked time people around questions omitted elias davidsson iceland email elias ismennt funny mention , 've heard questions time , also day , couple neo nazis ucla passing literature like cheers , steve steven berson ucla computer science department \( 310 \) 825 3189 steven cs ucla edu los angeles , ca 90024 1596
dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) subject accounts anti armenian human right violations azerbaijan 010 summary prelude current events nagorno karabakh organization p center regional studies lines 170 accounts anti armenian human right violations azerbaijan 010 prelude current events nagorno karabakh way driver says , fact n't armenians left 'they burned , beat , stabbed deposition born 1940 baku administration \( 1 \) resident building 36 7 , apartment 9 block 14 sumgait azerbaijan first days events , 27th 28th february , away business trip 10th got crew , done paper work , left district 's azerbaijan , near nagorno karabagh region 14th , rumors started effect karabagh , specifically stepanakert , uprising taken place said uprising azerbaijani , n't think really uprising , demonstration unrest started several armenians living district injured injured \? beaten , even women said demonstrations , live , went karabagh demonstrate felt uneasy conversations armenians among local population armenians done , armenians done right site attacked couple times kids well true , guys crew would n't let come cables knives felt really bad n't know go called home children tell , 's unrest everywhere , careful well project going told second secretary district party committee going said wanted take crew site would n't allow , said , nothing 's going happen , 've entrusted matter police , 've warned everyone district , nothing happen well , fact especially detail us policeman look , knows local people would protect something happened man n't leave alone five minutes work whole time afterward spent night us , sense call home wife also tells , situation tense , careful finished job site , left sumgait first thing morning 29th left guys warned , told n't tell anyone way armenian took someone else 's business travel documents , name , hid hid passport socks set baku guys bus , sat behind , sat front baku come said collect travel documents case turns knew happening sumgait arrive bus station tell city sumgait closed , way get city closed buses n't running buses normally leave baku sumgait almost every two minutes suddenly buses well , tried get via private drivers one man , azerbaijani , said , let 's go find way get found light transport vehicle arranged driver take us sumgait took us others said , would n't go gave thousand rubles \? 're burning city killing armenians n't armenian left well got hold could still stand squared away , four us got car , set sumgait way driver says , fact n't armenians left 'they burned , beat , stabbed well silent whole way 20 odd miles silent driver asks , old , old man \? wants know i'm quiet , saying anything , maybe means i'm armenian old \? asks say , i'm 47 i'm 47 , call man' say , depends god , person 's life world different look much older years , 's called old man well silent , 're approaching city , look see tanks around , get store driver starts wave hand well , waving hand , start waving hands i'm sitting , start waving hand , realized sign meant armenians us look city crowd people walking middle street , know , 's traffic well probably scared stopped car people standing armature shafts , stones stopped us along way driver tells us know 's armenian 's armenians usually example , i'm armenian , speak language well well armenians usually pronounce azeri word nut , little nut , , actually correct different anyone says , even 're armenian , immediately take start slash another one says , car , five people inside , says started hitting side axe lit fire n't let people , says , would n't let get car saw car , driver says saw everything well often drives baku sumgait back stop us get car look 's short guy , eyes gleaming , armature shaft one hand stone asks guys nationality one one 're azerbaijani , ' tell , 'no armenians come pulling things says , maybe 're armenian , old man \? azerbaijani say , ashamed ! left turned left happened \? city fire , steal children home stopped us entrance mir street , 's store three large , 12 story buildings 's beginning town saw burned automobile , completely burned , metal remained could n't figure zhiguli later told zhiguli people completely nothing remained , even traces driver told , saw car car skeleton , metallic carcass 30 40 yards store see military transport , armored personnel carrier hatches closed people throwing armature shafts pieces iron , crowd hear shots , automatic fire , 's true , pistol shots several shots azerbaijanis crowded around personnel carrier someone crowd shooting apparently either wanted kill soldiers get machine gun something point one armored personnel carrier tanks outside city , sumgait walked see two azerbaijanis going home plant tell 're bandits , 're people , walking home joined case something happened , case someone came us asked questions , either us would position answer , see avoided large groups i'm local might quickly recognized tried keep distance , walked fewer people well walked microdistrict 2 , across block ca n't get block , walked fewer people , get around well see tall guy 25 30 people walking behind 's shouting comrades , armenian azerbaijani war begun ! police like 're talking walking around second microdistrict see 're coming way , turn behind building noticed walked around outside buildings , inside 5 6 people standing every corner , buildings , edges ca n't say , could n't get close , afraid important thing get away , get home , least find children alive april 20 , 1988 yerevan reference 1 sumgait tragedy pogroms armenians soviet azerbaijan , volume , eyewitness accounts , edited samuel shahmuradian , forward yelena bonner , 1990 , published aristide caratzas , ny , pages 158 160 david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org explain turkish troops p center regional studies armenian border , ca n't p box 382761 even explain 1915 \? cambridge , 02238 turkish mp , march 1992
hilmi er dsv su se \( hilmi eren \) subject armenia says could shoot turkish planes lines 118 nntp posting host dsv su se reply hilmi er dsv su se \( hilmi eren \) organization dept computer systems sciences , stockholm university henrik \? \? hilmi writes henrik armenians nagarno karabagh simply defending henrik rights keep homeland azeris henrik invading homeland homeland \? first nagarno karabagh armenians homeland today fizuli , lacin several villages \( azerbadjan \) homeland ca n't see great armenia dream \? facist methods like killing , raping bombing villages last move blast truck 60 kurdish refugees , trying escape lacin , city given kurds armenians nagorno karabakh azerbaijan armenia armenians lived nagorno karabakh ever since armenians armenians used live areas armenia nagorno karabakh area used invade nagorno karabakh armenians defending azeris dying policy attacking armenians , something wrong policy attacking \? attacking \? even country live , usa , condemned armenia 's attacking start say attackers azeris \? \? \? \? \? armenians lived nagorno karabakh ever since armenians \? \? \? \? \? azeris lived nagorno karabakh ever since azeris n't come , reason attack people man called co gave freedom people area recall correctly , stalin caused problem land first place , armenians 's easy people like blame history lot indians living usa reason indians attack american people say fault government germany great britain , made people come place armenians lived harmony azeris co gave freedom people karabag , armenians started kill , rape torture azeris , karabag also azerbadjan henrik however , hope armenians force turkish airplane henrik land purposes searching arms similar one henrik happened last summer turkey searched american plane henrik \( carrying humanitarian aid \) bound armenia n't speak things n't know 8 u cargo planes heading armenia turkish authorities announced going search cargo planes 3 planes returned 's base germany 5 planes searched turkey content 3 planes \? hard guess , \? sure humanitarian aid story talking \? planes u sending aid armenian two years would like guess 3 planes story , would like find search turkish planes \? n't know talking turkey 's government announced 's giving weapons azerbadjan since armenia started attack azerbadjan self , karabag province search plane weapons since 's content announced weapons \? 's bad would want turkey start war armenia 's n't want , could n't imagine result war france , greece usa wants start fighting azerbadjan \? \? \? \? give lot weapons armenians without saying , 's secret must say armenian government think shall move 's war \? \? \? \? neighbour around armenia must live harmony n't want stone age country , 's 's happen armenia wars continues look , president turkey , turgut ozal , died armenian turkey funeral liked \? sure , armenia needs 's neighbours must live armenia ca n't stop war continued states like france usa words , love people must think twice wonder , shoot turkish planes \? \? \? \? \? forgot armenians ca n't find food lot arms mentioned countries hilmi eren stockholm university sweden
center policy research cpr igc apc org subject 'center policy nf id r 256 usenet ins cwru edu cdp 000 nf cdp uucp ! cpr apr 21 04 21 00 1993 lines 33 seems many readers conference interested behind center research oblige name elias davidsson , citizen , born palestine mother thrown germany belonged \( times group defined \) forced go palestine due many cynical factors meanwhile settled iceland \( 30 years ago \) met many people thrown homeland , palestine , reason \( belonged \) people include neighbors jerusalem children played child crime jews conscience accept injustice , period work justice done name principled opposition racism racial discrimination protest practices arab countries support long protest based principled position , tactic deflect criticism israel struggle discrimination racism universal center policy research name gave activities undertaken guidance different domains , command support many volunteers iceland however formal institution works minimal funds professionally music teacher composer published several pieces piano music taught widely europe would hope discussion israel palestine conducted civilized manner calling names helpful elias davidsson iceland
center policy research cpr igc apc org subject nazi eugenic theories circulated nf id r 1993apr19 cirrus co cdp 000 2238 nf cdp uucp ! cpr apr 21 04 44 00 1993 lines 42 postings made proposal comments discussion n't want discuss merits drawbacks forced however would make anybody others harm harass personal manner , legally responsible deeds cannot accept accept threats personal integrity urge anybody opposes terror refrain direct threats ps proposal nothing nazi eugenics search peace would enable justice n't consider justice done , non jews fled expelled 1948 1967 permitted return homeland best called , nice word legitimizing rule strong never called justice peace without justice never peace conviction situation state , law , attempts discourage mixed marriages \( israel \) , normal state resembles nazi germany south africa western democracies , united states , jews free marry wish thousands proposal may drawbacks meant force anybody anything , compensate certain time mixed couples endure society disapproves intermarriage day come israel become truly civil society , state concerned religious ethnic affiliation , fund would needed n't mind jews wish marry jews keep traditions , \? affairs state western democracy clearly separates domains certain american jews enjoy fact would love live state termed christian state green cards stamped mark jew would ask genuinely interested exchange views personal refrain emotional , infantile might readers infer jews respect judaism uncivilized behaviour good judaism elias
sdcc14 ucsd edu \( system operator \) subject moment silence organization university california , san diego lines 14 nntp posting host sdcc14 ucsd edu april 24th approaching , armenians around world getting ready remember massacres family members turkish government 1915 1920 least 1 5 million armenians perished period , important note deny event ever took place , either supported policy 1915 exterminate armenians , , painfully witnessed azerbaijan , would like see happen thank taking time read post
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject armenian slaughter defenseless muslim children pregnant women reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 81 article 1993apr20 kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes bm gimme break capital letters , , pure nonsense bm seems short sighted armenians escalating hostilities , armenians karabakh simply defending winding winter puts heavy 'arromdian' mood \? 'll see get dear write letter giving criminal handlers asala sdpa arf terrorism revisionism triangle military pointers , like shoot armed adult males instead small muslim children pregnant women source 'the times , ' 3 march 1992 massacre uncovered anatol lieven , sixty bodies , including women children , spotted nagorno karabakh , confirming claims armenian troops massacred azeri refugees hundreds missing scattered amid grass along small valley across hillside beyond bodies last wednesday 's massacre armenian forces azerbaijani refugees hill seen armenian controlled town outskirts azerbaijani military headquarters agdam died nearly made safety lines landed spot helicopter yesterday afternoon last troops commonwealth independent states began pulling left warring factions general boris , soviet withdrawal afghanistan , flew stepanakert ease departure local truce enforced allow collect dead refugees still hiding hills forest , two attack helicopters circled continuously nearby armenian positions , 31 bodies could counted scene least another 31 taken agdam past five days figures include civilians reported killed armenians stormed azerbaijani town khodjaly tuesday night figures also include yet bodies , survivor massacre , said saw 200 people shot point visited , refugees came different routes also told shot repeatedly leaving trail bodies along path around bodies saw scattered possessions , clothing personnel documents bodies preserved bitter cold killed others hid hills forest massacre bodies ordinary people , dressed poor , ugly clothing workers 31 saw , one policeman two apparent national volunteers wearing uniform rest civilians , including eight women three small children two groups , apparently families , fallen together , children arms several , including one small girl , terrible head injuries face left survivors told saw armenians shooting point blank lay ground serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject traditional historical armenian barbarism \( watch ! ! \) reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 106 article elroy uh edu elroy uh edu \( rizvi \) writes seems lot good muslims would care terms especially affected ideology actions terms bosnians suffering bigotry comes mind get people call descendants , people hate religion , n't think really muslims since white suffering let us forget genocide azeri people x soviet armenia armenians 1914 1920 , armenians committed unheard crimes , resorted conceivable methods despotism , organized massacres , poured petrol babies burned , raped women girls front parents bound hand foot , took girls mothers fathers appropriated personal property real estate today , put azeris unbearable conditions nation ever known history sadikov sat quietly shade cafe bar caspian sea baku showed line stitches trousers , torn armenian bullet fled town hojali three months ago , writes hugh pope i'm still wearing clothes , n't others , 51 year old carpenter said , beginning account hojali disaster wounded five places , lucky alive mr sadikov wife short food , without electricity month , cut helicopter flights 12 days sensed armenian noose tightening around 2 , 000 3 , 000 people left azeri town edge karabakh bombardment started never heard , eight nine kinds weapons , artillery , heavy machine guns , lot , mr sadikov said soon neighbours pouring street direction attack huddled shelters others started fleeing town , hill , stream snow forest side escape , reach azeri town agdam 15 miles away thought going make , dawn reached bottleneck two armenian villages nakhchivanik none group hurt spotted car road , armenian outposts started opening fire , mr sadikov said azeri militiamen fighting way hojali rushed forward force open corridor civilians , efforts mostly vain mr sadikov said 10 people group 80 made , including wife son seven immediate relations died , including 67 year old elder brother time reach cover face hat , said , pulling big flat turkish cap eyes never got bodies back first groups lucky benefit covering fire one hero evacuation , , shot dead struggled change magazine covering third group 's crossing , mr sadikov said another hero , elman memmedov , mayor hojali , said several others spent whole day 26 february hillside , surrounded dead bodies tried keep three armenian armoured personnel carriers bay survivors staggered last mile agdam , little comfort town population soon flee night reached town big armenian rocket attack people kept going , mr sadikov said get hospital treatment bad way even found bullet sock victims war azeri woman son , killed hojali massacre february \( left \) nurses struggle primitive conditions \( centre \) save wounded man makeshift operating theatre set train carriage grief stricken relatives town agdam \( right \) weep coffin another massacre victims calculating final death toll complicated muslims bury dead within 24 hours photographs liu ap reuter independent , london , 12 6 '92 serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject armenians serving wehrmacht ss reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 63 article cs duke edu wiener duke cs duke edu \( eduard wiener \) writes see little taste actually cheap shot took nothing translate 's insulting reference milan pavlovic c'mon , still n't corrected , april 1942 , hitler preparing invasion caucasus number nazi armenian leaders began submitting plans german officials spring summer 1942 one paikhar , son former ambassador armenian republic baku paikhar wrote letter hitler , asking german support armenian national socialist movement suggesting creation armenian ss formation order educate youth liberated armenia according spirit nazi ideas wanted unite armenians already occupied territories ussr movement conquer historic turkish homeland paikhar confined serving nazis goebbels propaganda ministry speaker armenian french language radio 1 armenian language produced yet another nazi armenian 2 1 patrick von zur \( \) , p 106 2 meyer , j berkian , rhein und , 900 deutsch , ' \( heinz verlag oldenburg 1988 \) , pp 124 129 establishment armenian units german army favored general dro \( butcher \) played important role establishment armenian without assuming official position views represented men respective organs interesting meeting took place dro reichsfuehrer ss heinrich himmler toward end 1942 dro discussed matters collaboration himmler long conversation , asked could visit pow camp close berlin himmler provided dro private car 1 minor problem soviet nationals according official nazi philosophy , subject german racism however , armenians least threatened indeed privileged august 1933 , armenians recognized aryans bureau racial investigation ministry domestic affairs 1 meyer , berkian , ibid , pp 112 113 need go \? serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject keeping silent memory 2 5 million muslim people alive reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 34 source men like leonard ramsden hartill bobbs merrill company , indianapolis \( 1926 \) \( 305 pages \) \( memoirs armenian officer participated genocide 2 5 million muslim people \) p 193 muslim villages destroyed slain driven country p 218 armenians spare tartars persisted , slaughtering prisoners , looting , rape massacre helpless become commonplace actions expected accepted matter course scenes massacres dead lay ground , numbers , like fallen leaves forest helpless defenseless sheep died soldiers die heat battle , fired courage , weapons hands , exchanging blow blow died helpless must , hearts brains bursting horror worse death serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject religious persecution , cultural oppression economical reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 161 article 1993apr21 news uiowa edu mau herky cs uiowa edu \( mau napoleon \) writes may afraid anything act always like kind odds greek governments must held account sub human conditions turkish minority living western thrace brutal greek domination religious persecution , cultural oppression economical ex communication applied turkish population area dimensions human rights abuse widespread greece greece 's housing policies worry western thrace turks newly built houses belonging members minority community province , , said , destroyed province public works department dec 4 added received harsh treatment security forces demolition first demolition province 40 houses destroyed 1979 1984 members minority community made homeless , continued greece government rail roads two turkish ethnic deputies world human rights organizations scream , greeks persistently work removing parliamentary immunity dr sadik ahmet mr ahmet faikoglu 65 page confession , salman , former chief pkk operations confessed high level relations pkk , greece greek cypriot administration existed according , greek cypriot administration gives shelter pkk guerillas also supplies food weapons temporary camps set territory disclosed pkk three safe houses south cyprus , used terrorists camps , added , terrorists trained use various weapons including rpg 's anti aircraft guns purchased directly greek government greek cypriot government gone extent issuing special identification cards pkk members travel one region another without confronted legal obstacles 's account confirmed another pkk , tan , gave police spending four years pkk tan explained terrorists went training camps south cyprus , sometimes period 12 weeks torture greece hidden reality case 1 head covered hood tortured \( beating soles feet \) , electric shocks , threatened thrown window official medical report clearly documented torture case 2 , west german citizen midnight taken beach , chains put feet threatened thrown sea dragged along beach 1 5 km punched head kidneys back police station , beaten finger tips thin stick one fingertips split open case 3 torture case 4 brothers \( 16 \) christos \( 12 \) , \( 13 \) , \( 13 \) case 5 torture eight students thessaloniki police headquarters source british broadcasting corporation , summary world broadcasting july 6 , 1987 part 4 middle east , 1 abu nidal 's advisers reportedly training pkk asala militants cyprus nicosia , ankara , tel aviv israeli secret service , mossad , reported acquired significant information connection camps set mountains cyprus training militants pkk asala armenian secret army liberation armenia according sources close mossad , 700 kurdish , greek cypriot armenian militants undergoing training mountains southern cyprus sources stated abu nidal 's special advisers giving military training pkk asala militants camps added militants leave southern cyprus libya , lebanon , syria , greece iran completing training mossad established due clashes taking place among terrorist groups based syria , pkk asala organisations moved greek cypriot part cyprus , would comfortable also transferred number camps northern syria mountains mossad revealed armenian national movement , known mna , opened liaison offices nicosia , athens tripoli order meet needs camps offices used provide material support armenian camps meanwhile , leader popular front liberation palestine , george , reported ordered men participate operations carried pkk asala , described extreme racist , extreme nationalist fascist reliable sources said believed recent operations carried pkk militants show organisation band irregulars engaged extreme nationalist operations added instructed militants sever links pkk avoid established george expelled asala militants camp asala 's connections drug trafficking exposed source alan , 'u greece dispute terror , ' new york times , june 27 , 1987 , p 4 special new york times athens , june 26 dispute developed today athens washington united states intelligence reports saying athens , several months , conducted negotiations terrorist known abu nidal said contacts verified termed hard intelligence reports abu nidal leads palestinian splinter group al fatah revolutionary council , implicated 1985 airport bombings rome vienna contributed reagan administration 's decision bomb tripoli , libya , last year washington , state department officials said administration officials learned contacts , state department drafted strongly worded officials also expressed greece 's dealings asala , armenian liberation army , carried terrorist acts turks serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
vnet ibm com \( mike magil \) subject rejoinder questions israelis lines 48 bc744 cleveland freenet edu \( mark ira kaufman \) newsgroups talk politics mideast subject rejoinder questions israelis date 23 apr 1993 12 55 47 gmt organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) although realize principle one strongest points , would still like know ask question sort arab countries want continue think tank charade , fixation israel must stop might start asking sort questions arab countries well realize would work , arab treatment jews last several decades bad fixation israel would begin look like biased attack everyone group recognizes stupid 'center policy research' nothing fancy name bigot hates israel n't try honest hatred israel \? heard family lived israel , members family could cut competition true family \? true \? actually israel , really personal vendetta \? least bit objective israel \? think name phony baloney center hides bias least \? get clue , mr davidsson n't realized yet post stupidity group , going incur answers people armed truth \? n't realized piece selective data piece make truth \? n't realized head \? people read group stupid would hope need place pseudo analysis continually ripped shreds , start show regard objectivity continue show anti israel zealot , trying disguise bias behind pompous name like 'center policy research ' ought know laughing stock , considered joke , either go away , make least attempt objective , place honor among clowns , bigots , idiots usenet could n't said better , mark ! mike
casper vxcrna cern ch \( casper , davi ppe \) subject american jewish congress open letter clinton news software vax vms vnews 1 41 organization european organization nuclear research , cern lines 47 article blaze cs jhu edu , arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \( ken arromdee \) writes article vxcrna cern ch casper vxcrna cern ch \( casper , davi ppe \) writes said fixation bosnia due european country , rather third world ken says intervention somalia counter example staunch republican , btw irony arguing military intervention arguments based vietnam escaped opposed us intervention somalia reasons , although clearly nearly risky based reasons \? mean opposed us intervention somalia since somalia european country instead third world , desire help somalia racist \? n't think reason applies somalia , completely misunderstood opposed intervention somalia reason opposed intervention bosnia security interest united states justifies risking lives american servicemen , many world us take case bosnia , risks obviously much greater , countries much better position far better reasons take action us whole point somalia third world country , willing send troops bosnia exactly opposite fixation european countries theory would predict \( similarly , desire help muslims fought christians also exactly opposite theory predicts \) continue misunderstand say reason people want intervene racist \( seem overly fond using word , btw said phenomenon race related , racist perhaps distinction subtle grasp \) motives said attention outrage entire situation result 1 \) closer home , 2 \) happening people identify , 3 \) media never said anything side would preferred , lot presentation conflict psychological factors think doubt despite fact intervened somalia , level attention devoted considerably less devoted bosnia , newspapers tv news see guide dave
bc744 cleveland freenet edu \( mark ira kaufman \) subject center anti rhetoric organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 9 nntp posting host thor ins cwru edu dear mr davidsson , claim purpose fight racism n't seem interest injustice except may committed israel treatment jews arab nations , injustice proportions , injustice seem care least bit \?
bob1 cos com \( bob blackshaw \) subject humanity bosnia keywords barbarism organization corporation open systems distribution world lines 47 1993apr15 julian uwo ca gfx engga uwo ca \( mr mubashir rizvi \) writes encouraging number people took interest posting recieved couple letters , debated statement events bosnia unprecedented history modern world contest statement present figures world war ii however must keep mind world war country power stop , today matter power seems lack idea u , nation , taking action , e , military intervention , bosnia well thought advocate action , would require occupation force one two generations stop think , realize people never forgotten single slight injury , hatred mother 's milk stop fighting , seize destroy weapons , simply go back killing clubs price futility lives young men women send die price unwilling even consider second point difference \( makes different \( sp \? \) \) time international community didnot enough muscle prevent unfortunate event , valid comparison holocaust jewish people known friends brought hate wary others , certainly , hate except warsaw uprising , unarmed \( even warsaw badly gunned \) easy speak muscle someone else 's muscles suppose thing , tell parents , wives , children , lovers sending die \? gave lives noble cause \? noble cause , separating mad dogs turn well , offer muscle suppose tell one week \( give foreign nationals time leave \) cease bloodshed end week , bring tomahawk firing ships destroy belgrade destroyed bosnian cities perhaps cities reduced rubble sudden attack brains send missiles means , send troops today might , international community standing neutral placed arms embargo means lift embargo obvious disadvantage side therefore advantage bully hence possibly unintentionally , mankind sided killers , think unprecedented history modern world killers \? honestly believe one side \? rizvi reb
shaig think com \( shai guday \) subject go hezbollah ! organization thinking machines corporation , cambridge , usa lines 81 distribution world nntp posting host composer think com article 1993apr16 130037 18830 ncsu edu , hernlem chess ncsu edu \( brad hernlem \) writes article 2bce0918 6105 news service uci edu , tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) writes suggesting , guerillas use population cover , israel totally back \? easiest way get away attacking another use innocent shield hope respects innocent lives \? tell tim , guerillas wrong \? assuming using civilians cover , killing soldiers country \? buffer zone prevent attacks israel , working \? neccessary israeli guns pound lebanese villages \? kill try infiltrate buffer zone \? see , shelling villages called retaliation getting back getting even n't make sense shell villages least shows reckless disregard israeli government lives civilians recall , subject raised weeks ago touched upon someone claimed guerillas manifestations popular sentiment , topic arose civilian stop becoming civilian \? houses shelters guerillas free , aiding , violated civilian status \? \? whole bit attacks israel neighboring arab states start \? also hope happen , occur arab states show prepared take responsibility duty stop guerilla attacks israel soil prove \( provide guaratees \) , way israel going accept word past attitude tolerance towards anti israel guerillas residence israel willing accept word others , imho , business wasting others' time coming peace talks n't see statement made ways \? lebanon interested peace accept word israel attacks cause war disarming hizbollah remove cause continued occupancy afterall , israel already staged two parts withdrawal areas occupied lebanon slg tim , ignoring fact palestinians lebanon disarmed hezbollah remains independent militia hezbollah attack israel except times idf burned sheikh mosavi , wife , young son course , israel would withdraw lebanon stop assassinating people shelling villages would n't make lebanese mad furthermore , hezbollah subsequently disarmed , would possible exactly true hizbollah affiliated groups made several attempts infiltrate border israel without support , active involvement , syria , lebanon would able accomplish occurred syria leaves say lebanon able retain control \? syria stays thay may even dangerous israel tim , last time recall trouble syrian border \? lately , eh \? israel knows well syrians able restrain would use territory control attack israel lebanon would better syria israel borders , presence syrian troops lebanon meant sharp decrease attacks israeli territory \( israeli troops lebanon , however please note distinction \) past two years true , syrians allow \( least 1984 \) guerillas operate areas control , provided guerillas attacking israeli lines problem syria also stable partner long term peace others area might shai guday stealth bombers , os software engineer thinking machines corp winged ninjas skies cambridge ,
shaig think com \( shai guday \) subject basil , opinions \? \( water brain \) organization thinking machines corporation , cambridge , usa lines 21 distribution world nntp posting host composer think com article 1993apr16 ncsu edu , hernlem chess ncsu edu \( brad hernlem \) writes btw , litani river flow west south \? think waters stay entirely within lebanese territory hasan says jordan river makes sense , case hasbani river , hand , flows jordan , mistaken litani river flows west southwestern direction indeed run buffer zone hasbani flow jordan contrary imaginative poster might write , increase river proportional climatic changes brad hernlem \( hernlem chess ncsu edu \) shai guday stealth bombers , os software engineer thinking machines corp winged ninjas skies cambridge ,
ucer ee rochester edu \( b ucer \) subject turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece \( armenia azeris \) organization university rochester department electrical engineering article 1993apr16 535 cs yale edu ctstateu edu \( angelos karageorgiou greek combination \) writes ok aykut , greek torched , people died happened oh , 5 years ago greeks islands , allowed churches , instead turkey turned church warehouse , got picture greeks , call trabzon sampson , spoke 2 thousand year language , left still \? start another flamefest , start quoting argic , somebody else \? , please think know hard thing somebody equipped , try nevertheless turks greece badly mistreated come elected two , one two , representatives greek government \? come free \( absolutely free \) hospitalization education \? turks turkey much \? every right shout , untill also move greece enjoy privileges forget , study foreign university , poor tiling earth sweat btw aziz still writing poetry \? 'd like read new stuff also guy wrote mountains \? please respond kindly last two questions , interested finding books two people kai opinions expressed nobody else 's angelos karageorgiou mine , mine , , , \( \( \( live long carrier mail sent , used manner whatsoever may repost parts messages whole messages disagree , please exercise freedom speech n't send anything dear mr karageorgiou , would like clarify several misunderstandings posting first bus incident believe three years ago , done mentally ill person killed afterwards pontus greeks ex turks greece 1923 logout since greek friend wants use computer well , 'll back la vista baby
gt1091a prism gatech edu \( gt1091a gt1091a kaan , timucin \) subject public service translation 2 keywords effective greek armenian postings organization georgia institute technology lines 21 hell guy david davidian think talks much yo , david would better shut f k \? \? n't like attitute full lies shit n't hear saying mess ! ! see ya hell timucin kaan , timucin georgia institute technology , atlanta georgia , 30332 uucp ! decvax , hplabs , ncar , purdue , rutgers ! gatech ! prism ! gt1091a internet gt1091a prism gatech edu
nstramer supergas dazixco ingr com \( naftaly stramer \) subject many israeli soldiers take kill 5 yr old child \? nntp posting host supergas reply nstramer dazixco ingr com organization intergraph electronics lines 40 article 1993apr13 701 bernina ethz ch , nadeem p ethz ch \( nadeem malik \) writes actually , remember correctly , reported even camera time israeli invasion lebanon , began , cnn caught regular uniformed israeli soldiers breaking arms arab youngsters professional brutal manner , \( someone please give full details remember \) cnn \? one scene transmitted west usa caused uproar one factors significantly changed israeli army 's role mid east proof ! proof said reported someone please give full details remember hear say proof obvious systematic policy israelis must occurring massive scale behind scenes yes , like 700 palestinians brutally murdered brothers nadeem naftaly stramer intergraph electronics internet nstramer dazixco ingr com 6101 lookout road , suite voice \( 303 \) 581 2370 fax \( 303 \) 581 9972 boulder , co 80301 quality everybody 's job , 's everybody 's job watch
bh437292 longs lance colostate edu \( basil hamdan \) subject go hezbollah ! reply bh437292 lance colostate edu nntp posting host parry lance colostate edu organization engineering college , colorado state university lines 95 article 1993apr15 das harvard edu , adam endor uucp \( adam shostack \) writes tell , young men also attack syrian troops \? south lebanon area , israeli \( sla \) lebanese troops present syrian troops deployed north river river security zone lebanese troops stationed blood soldiers israel interested peace , withdraw land must guarantee peace happens seems many lebanese youth unable restrain violence , unable realize actions prolong israels stay south lebanon opinion opinion israeli government agree peace guarantees would better , addressing problem stands hopefully comprehensive peace settlement concluded soon , include security guarantees sides proposal aimed decreasing casualties interim period opinion , israel withdraws unilaterally would still better staying israeli gov't obviously agrees willing move hope able change opinion , 's post tpm lebanese army able maintain peace , israel would , israel prefers soldiers die rather children explained , contend israel withdraw unilaterally believe attacks would northern israel also explained believe case suggestion aimed reducing level tension casualties sides unfortunate israel agree opinion israel really wants save israeli lives would withdraw unilaterally called security zone conclusion peace talks move would save israeli lives , advance peace efforts , give israel great moral lift , better israel 's public image abroad give edge peace negociations since israel rightly claim genuinely interested peace already offered important concessions israel withdraw lebanon peace treaty signed day withdraw casualties would tell lebanese people need push israel around kill soldiers gonna happen bad along withdrawal israel could demand hizbollah disarmed lebanese government warn accept attacks northern cities shelling occurs consider taking buffer zone hold lebanese syrian government responsible israel demand holding buffer zone \? seems better bargaining position holding neighbors land israel occupying security zone free charge paying price israel withdraws may lost bargaining chip table would save soldiers' lives , contention lebanon willing agree conditions , israel would quite probably left already unfortunately , n't seem lebanese disarm , maintain peace completely untrue hizbollah minor force lebanese politics real heavy weights syria 's allies gov't supported syria lebanese army 30 , 000 troops unified like never hizbollah moral justification attacking israel proper , especially israeli withdrawal would draw ire lebanese syrian israeli israel withdraw act \( attacking israel \) would akin political moral suicide basil adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu budget big enough drugs sexual favors , sure would n't waste members congress john perry barlow
msilverm nyx cs du edu \( mike silverman \) subject clinton 's views jerusalem organization university denver , dept math comp sci lines 23 bf3833 pyuxe cc bellcore com \( feigenbaum , benjamin \) writes recently read bill clinton 's campaign , stated elected would immediately recognize jerusalem israel 's capital according article , mr clinton reaffirmed winning presidency however , recent talks president mubarak , secretary state christopher stated status jerusalem final matter discussion parties n't want start big discussion status jerusalem want know anyone authenticate mr clinton 's statements dates , places , etc recent interview middle east insight magazine , clinton said supports moving us embassy jerusalem , would time would interrupt peace talks msilverm nyx cs du edu go cubs ! ! ! one likes believe freedom baseball geddy lee
iacovou cs umn edu \( neophytos iacovou \) subject know serbian greek connection nntp posting host cs umn edu organization university minnesota lines 26 1993apr13 freenet carleton ca aa624 freenet carleton ca \( suat kiniklioglu \) writes first reiterate terminology describing events 1974 extremely misleading cyprus occupied turkish forces invited turkish cypriots intervened oh see n't realize think perhaps print flyers topic , reasons thinking way distribute amongst world 's population see , n't think many people aware fact thank telling us truth btw would start sending flyers un officials also , distributed flyers might consider hiding see , think people read think lock mental institute n't think ever let strange strange world live feel sorry neophytos iacovou university minnesota email iacovou cs umn edu computer science department ! rutgers ! umn cs ! iacovou
bh437292 longs lance colostate edu \( basil hamdan \) subject basil , opinions \? \( water brain \) reply bh437292 lance colostate edu nntp posting host parry lance colostate edu organization engineering college , colorado state university lines 65 article early bird think com , shaig think com \( shai guday \) writes article 1993apr15 thunder mcrcim mcgill edu , hasan mcrcim mcgill edu writes article 1993apr15 nysernet org , astein nysernet org \( alan stein \) writes guess hasan finally revealed source claim israel diverted water lebanon imagination alan h stein astein israel nysernet org mr water head , never said israel diverted lebanese rivers , fact said israel went southern lebanon make sure water used lebanese side , water would run jordan river israel use ! head course posting hard evidence facts much difficult bothered substantiate way basil , know evidence would support \? agree shai , many references israeli plans litani river yet find hard evidence mentioned report commissioned un study litani river , still draft form israeli gov't also commissioned study river done dr ben wolfe litani starts valley lebanon , flows , west across south lebanon discharges mediterranean near city tyre rivers hasbani start lebanese territory join jordan river mentioned plan one would divert water litani , water would flow naturally de houle evidence diversion structure \( would need least 3 km long \) area mountainous , inaccessible occupied israel seen independent reports existence diversion structure another often mentioned diversion deep wells also rumored 600 wells tapping deep aquifers drawing water israeli side border wells indeed use would costly operate \( high energy costs \) lebanese israeli gov't agree distribution water shared aquifers part overall peace plan bilateral negociations regional issues fact war time led current state affairs aquifers completely unregulated basil hasan shai guday stealth bombers , os software engineer thinking machines corp winged ninjas skies cambridge ,
bh437292 longs lance colostate edu \( basil hamdan \) subject go hezbollah ! reply bh437292 lance colostate edu nntp posting host parry lance colostate edu organization engineering college , colorado state university lines 13 article 2bce0918 6105 news service uci edu , tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) writes article apr15 175334 72079 yuma acns colostate edu bh437292 lance colostate edu writes view entire matter far serenely one sided selectively naive oooh hurts suffer naive one sided views mine please skip articles future oh wise tim , good day basil
bh437292 longs lance colostate edu \( basil hamdan \) subject go hezbollah ! reply bh437292 lance colostate edu nntp posting host parry lance colostate edu organization engineering college , colorado state university lines 101 article shaig composer think com , shaig composer think com \( shai guday \) writes snip imagine \? \? \? \? terrorist camp israelis like view villages small communities kids playing soccer streets , women preparing lunch , men playing cards , etc would argue even villages terrorist camps however come close serving purpose say function way prior invasion village described actually closest could come describing mine agree may villages civilian population close israeli lines thus gets bombed often villages often remaining inhabitants guerillas elderly nowhere else go part typical south lebanon village like mine one civilians guerillas live together often house many families large , members families involved , others hard south lebanon , israel fighting army well drawn battle lines , guerilla resistance definition necessity local populace evil cowards use women children shields , way one fight powerful better equipped occupying army villages , might well among , describe large number groups area , backed various organizations , wide range purposes hizbollah amal two larger ones may still hizbollah amal main two militias though hizbollah people tend committed operation better motivated religious conviction retaliation , mistakes may made , still far cry indiscriminate bombing , would produced major casualties may mixture say sometimes israel chooses targets carefully times sends pilots aimed town general since knows attackers came specific village intelligence several occasions israel civilian refugee camps , even north lebanon , show sit soldiers attacked time sla dirty work indiscriminately shell lebanese villages side experienced shelling several occasions , sla militia sometimes even despised israeli troops well , disagree think israel would willingly withdraw lebanese gov't able field reliable force area police prevent attacks hope right israeli willingness withdraw , still contend withdrawal would better course israel 's security , since would reduce military losses , claim lebanese syrian would able prevent attacks northern israel seems little incentive syrian lebanese allow hizbollah bomb israel proper circumstances , lebanese government proven capable controlling disarming militias parts lebanon , syrian gov't happy israel sink another lebanese morass could elaborate necessary hmm disagree serves syria interests better think syria wants lebanon would willing guarantee northern israel 's security return israeli withdrawal n't think syria wants israel involved lebanon syria sitting negotiating table come accept wants get political resolution renewal hostilities along lebanese front could put whole peace negotiations back question agree , case soldiers killing cannot qualified murder , matter say , regretable , whole situation agree loss human life deplorable regrettable shai guday stealth bombers , os software engineer thinking machines corp winged ninjas skies cambridge , basil
dzk cs brown edu \( danny keren \) subject suicide bomber attack territories organization brown university department computer science lines 22 attention israel line recipients friday , april 16 , 1993 two arabs killed eight idf soldiers wounded west bank car bomb explosion israel defense forces radio , , reports today car bomb explosion west bank today killed two palestinians wounded eight idf soldiers blast believed work suicide bomber radio reports said car packed butane gas exploded two parked buses , one belonging idf civilian busses went flames blast killed arab man worked nearby snack bar settlement israel radio report stated man killed may one set bomb according officials hospital , eight idf soldiers injured blast suffered light moderate injuries danny keren
horen netcom com \( jonathan b horen \) subject investment yehuda shomron lines 40 today 's israeline posting , end \( \? \) , read money allocated building infrastructure territories create jobs palestinians kol yisrael reports public works geared building infrastructure costing 140 million new israeli shekels \( 50 million dollars \) begin sunday territories announced last night prime minister yitzhak rabin finance minister effort create jobs palestinian residents territories infusion money bring given developing infrastructure territories year 450 million nis , last year 's figure 120 million nis applaud investing money yehuda , shomron , , order create jobs residents , find deplorable never active policy israeli administration since 1967 , regard jewish residents past governments found funds subsidize cheap \( read affordable \) housing requisite infrastructure , investment creating industry \( would generated income jobs \) \? 26 years , yehuda shomron remain barren , bereft even middle sized industries , jewish settlements sterile bedroom communities , havens \( main \) israelis \( secular religious \) work tel aviv jerusalem cannot afford live either city surrounding suburbs 's old saying bli , ayn living n't enough , really settle instead , settled villages , paying price \( others done \) b horen jews base advocacy jewish positions \( 408 \) 736 interests judaism essentially racists horen netcom com morally defensible grounds preservation jews separate people rest religious identity jews
nstramer supergas dazixco ingr com \( naftaly stramer \) subject free man propaganda machine freeman , blood greetings israel nntp posting host supergas reply nstramer dazixco ingr com organization intergraph electronics lines 31 article early bird think com , shaig think com \( shai guday \) writes article 1993apr13 thunder mcrcim mcgill edu , hasan mcrcim mcgill edu writes israelis , begin yitzhak shamir leaders cute , real cute please stop childish get issues \? many gangs massacred palestineans became heros israel prime ministers oh sorry forgot ben gurion , hope enjoying coffin , israelis donot support \( doubt \) oppression killing 1930 's , probably mean mass murders jews west bank 1936 1939 hasan shai guday naftaly naftaly stramer intergraph electronics internet nstramer dazixco ingr com 6101 lookout road , suite voice \( 303 \) 581 2370 fax \( 303 \) 581 9972 boulder , co 80301 quality everybody 's job , 's everybody 's job watch
nstramer supergas dazixco ingr com \( naftaly stramer \) subject car bomb west bank nntp posting host supergas reply nstramer dazixco ingr com organization intergraph electronics lines 34 israeline 4 16 two arabs killed eight idf soldiers wounded west bank car bomb explosion israel defense forces radio , , reports today car bomb explosion west bank today killed two palestinians wounded eight idf soldiers blast believed work suicide bomber radio reports said car packed butane gas exploded two parked buses , one belonging idf civilian busses went flames blast killed arab man worked nearby snack bar settlement israel radio report stated man killed may one set bomb according officials hospital , eight idf soldiers injured blast suffered light moderate injuries arab killed probably mossad count murder naftaly naftaly stramer intergraph electronics internet nstramer dazixco ingr com 6101 lookout road , suite voice \( 303 \) 581 2370 fax \( 303 \) 581 9972 boulder , co 80301 quality everybody 's job , 's everybody 's job watch
shaig think com \( shai guday \) subject go hezbollah ! organization thinking machines corporation , cambridge , usa lines 80 distribution world nntp posting host composer think com article apr16 yuma acns colostate edu , bh437292 longs lance colostate edu \( basil hamdan \) writes article shaig composer think com , shaig composer think com \( shai guday \) writes hard south lebanon , israel fighting army well drawn battle lines , guerilla resistance definition necessity local populace evil cowards use women children shields , way one fight powerful better equipped occupying army currently true perspective , also worthwhile note cases populace often suffer attempts control guerillas furthermore , cases past palestinian gun situated within villages argument made small arms fire made field pieces hizbollah amal main two militias though hizbollah people tend committed operation better motivated religious conviction recall , amal primarily lebanon lebanese motivated think difference also matter funding support one question come mind however , given claim hizbollah committed etc stated position 1 peace talks 2 peace talks n 1 peace talks n israel assume lebanon syria sincere desire peace , n't hizbollah disarmed \? hope right israeli willingness withdraw , still contend withdrawal would better course israel 's security , since would reduce military losses , claim lebanese syrian would able prevent attacks northern israel bearing mind military losses palatable civilian ones , sure understand israel slow act manner , syrian gov't happy israel sink another lebanese morass could elaborate necessary hmm disagree serves syria interests better think syria wants lebanon would willing guarantee northern israel 's security return israeli withdrawal n't think syria wants israel involved lebanon syria sitting negotiating table come accept wants get political resolution renewal hostilities along lebanese front could put whole peace negotiations back question agree syria wants lebanon part greater syria n't necessarily see syrians would unhappy see israel neck another lebanese morass syria could continue merry schedule israeli public opinion would lead second agree loss human life deplorable regrettable sigh ca n't negotiate easily people \? shai guday stealth bombers , os software engineer thinking machines corp winged ninjas skies cambridge ,
dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) subject accounts anti armenian human rights violations azerbaijan 013 summary prelude current events nagorno karabakh organization p center regional studies lines 339 accounts anti armenian human right violations azerbaijan 013 prelude current events nagorno karabakh said february 27 , people streaming street , shouting , long live turkey ! glory turkey ! trial said ismailov , mean , \? still n't understand turkey , live soviet union turkey told going help kill armenians \? still n't understand glory turkey ! asked question twice got answer one answered deposition emma born 1933 cook sumgait emergency hospital resident building 16 13 , apartment 14 block 5 sumgait azerbaijan day ca n't understand husband , older man , killed killed n't hurt anyone , n't said word ought n't kill \? want find , , government husband killed 27th , returned work saturday son home n't work went straight kitchen , called , mamma , soccer game \? shouts lenin street 's lived say , n't know , igor , n't turned tv looked said , mamma , 's going courtyard \? ! look see many people , 's awful , marching , marching , hundreds , thousands , ca n't even tell many 're shouting , armenians ! kill armenians ! tear armenians pieces ! god , happening , \? known nothing point lived together well , friendship , suddenly something like completely unexpected shouting , long live turkey ! flags , shouting man walking front well dressed , 's around 40 45 , gray walking saying something , ca n't make vent window walking saying something , children behind shouting , tear armenians pieces ! armenians ! shout , shout , hurrah ! people without end , walking groups , groups saw women , say , god , women ! son says , n't women , mamma , bad women well n't look long time walking shouting afraid , simply could n't sit still went onto balcony , azerbaijani neighbor balcony , say , , 's going , happened \? says , emma , n't know , n't know , n't know happened well quite frightened white sticks , second third one white rod 're waving rods heads walk , one 's front , like leader , white stick well maybe armature shaft , saw white , n't know husband got home 10 15 minutes later comes home say , oh dear , i'm frightened , 're going kill us bet says , afraid , 're children say , everything happens comes children 15 16 year kids technical vocational school n't fear , said , 's nothing , nothing bad n't eat , lay sofa television broadcast two azerbaijanis killed karabakh , near heard could n't settle , kept walking said , 're going kill us , azerbaijanis going kill us says , n't afraid heard central square , women shouting near near stage , well , 're shouting different things , could n't hear every well say , speak azerbaijani well , listen 're saying says close window go bed , nothing happening listened bit closed window went bed , told us , come , go sleep , 's nothing sleep , mean sleep \? son stood window two morning watching well 's sick , affecting say , igor , go bed , i'm going go bed minute went sat window three , went bed things calmed slightly 28th , sunday , day husband got said , come , emma , get say , today 's day , let rest says , n't going make tea \? well felt startled got , said , going \? says , i'm going , say , really go outside day like today \? n't go , god 's sake never listen , know , 're going listen , least n't take car garage , go without car says , come , close door ! muttered something , could n't make , probably said coward something closed door left started cleaning picking things around house everything seemed quiet one o'clock noon , bus station , neighbor told , cars burning said , , car \? says , , , emma , n't afraid , government cars '' car gaz 21 volga waited , four o'clock , five o'clock n't home seven said , oh , 've killed shagen ! tires burning town , 's black smoke town , i'm afraid , i'm standing balcony i'm whole body shaking god , 've probably killed ! basically waited like ten o'clock still n't come home i'm afraid go ten o'clock look across building building bookstore , upstairs , second floor , everything thrown outside i'm looking one window igor looking , n't want see , , turns , n't want see wanted hide one another joined mamma , says , look 're ! burning everything , police standing , 10 15 , maybe twenty policemen standing side , crowd side , two three people throwing everything balcony one ones balcony shouting , standing , burn ! threw television , wow , like bomb ! neighbor third floor came balcony shouted , , burning things , people saved difficulty buy things home burning \? courtyard yell , go inside , go inside ! instead n't tell us building \? meant armenians , n't say armenians , said , says , , , , none ! ran downstairs place , says , emma , emma , leave ! say , 've killed shagen anyway , live \? wo n't living without shagen let kill us , ! insists , saying , emma , get , go 's , give key come 'll say 's daughter 's apartment , 're visiting someone gave key went neighbor 's , could n't endure say , igor , stay , i'm going go downstairs , see , maybe papa 's papa 's meanwhile , killing two brothers , alik valery albert valery see accounts , courtyard crowd near building , 're shouting , howling , n't think killing time alik valery lived corner house across went courtyard saw azerbaijani , neighbor , young man 30 years old say , , uncle shagen 's gone , let 's go see , maybe 's dead garage near garage , let 's least bring corpse house shouts , aunt emma , think 're going \? ! go back house , 'll look say , something happen , , , , , i'm coming well would n't let go , says , stay us , i'm go look went looked , came back said , aunt emma , 's one , garage closed went returned said , aunt emma , 're already killed alik , valery 's wanted go , said , n't go near , 'll put next got scared 's young came back said , i'm going go call , maybe ambulance come , least take alik , maybe 'll live grew together courtyard , knew well , always good terms went call , single telephone worked , shut called , called , called , called nothing went upstairs neighbor 's igor says , two police cars drove , headlights , 're touching , still lying , 're still lying watched window four o'clock , went downstairs apartment n't take clothes lay couch go bed , six o'clock morning got said , igor , stay home , n't go , n't go anywhere , i'm going look , find papa , dead alive let go 've got keys work six o'clock went emergency hospital head doctor another doctor opened door morgue run say , doctor , shagen \? says , mean \? shagen \? ! wanted go , would n't let four people , said well , must awful n't let said , shagen 's , 's alive somewhere , 'll come back 's already seven o'clock morning look panel truck three policemen people hospital say , sara sister sara , term , go look , 've probably brought shagen said , shouted , went came back says , , emma , tan shoes , 's younger person shagen happened tan shoes , light tan , already old said like guessed immediately went said , doctor , 've brought shagen dead says , carrying like , dead , dead 's alive went , came back look face could tell immediately dead knew one another well , shagen worked long time say , doctor , shagen \? says , , emma , 's , 's somebody else entirely say , doctor , deceiving , 'll find anyway , today , tomorrow said screamed , right office says , emma , go , go calm little another one colleagues said doctor said shagen , hideous condition tried calm , saying n't shagen minutes later another colleague comes says , oh , poor emma ! said like hope left day awful endlessly bringing dead injured people night someone took home said , igor , papa 's killed morning 1st left igor home went hospital bury somehow , something look see hospital surrounded soldiers wearing dark clothes hey , citizen , going \? say , work , inside someone shouts , yes , yes , 's cook , let went right head doctor 's office person city health department , used work us hospital says , emma , shagen 's taken baku night took wounded dead , , baku say , doctor , bury \? says , 're taking care , n't worry , 'll everything , 'll tell spend night \? say , home says , mean home \? ! home alone \? say , , igor says , ca n't stay home , 're getting ambulance right , wait one second , head doctor coming , 're arranging ambulance right , put lab coat take one igor , go bring igor like patient , 'll stay 'll se later next last name head doctor 's name ambulance arrived went home got igor admitted patient , gave us private room , isolation room stayed hospital 4th police car came said , emma , let 's go women , colleagues , saw police car , became anxious said , taking \? say , 're going kill , investigator says , saying , 're going make positive identification went baku took morgue still ca n't remember hospital investigator says , let 's go , need certain , maybe 's shagen saw , lying top one another , went mind say , ca n't look , investigator says , identifying marks \? say , let see clothes , shoes , even sock , 'll recognize says , n't 're anything body \? say seven gold teeth finger , half one fingers shagen carpenter , injured work brought one sleeves shirt wearing , brought burned saw shouted , oh , burned ! shouted , n't know , fell maybe sat , n't remember investigator says , well fine , fine , since 've identified clothes , since teeth since seven gold teeth 4th told emma , 's time bury shagen cried , , bury shagen one son 's sick \? inform relatives , three sisters , ca n't say , ok , know situation get karabagh \? get yerevan \? 's transportation , impossible killed february 28 , buried march 7 buried sumgait asked , want bury \? said , want bury karabagh , born , let bury karabagh , i'm shouting , head burial office , guess , says , know means , take karabagh \? ! means arson ! say , mean , arson \? n't know 's going karabagh \? whole world knows killed , want take karabagh , n't anyone anymore begged , pleaded , , even got knees says , let 's bury , three months , six months , year , , 'll help move karabagh trial first sumgait concluded may 16 investigation murderer , tale ismailov , told happened , trial tried tried crime brought videotape recorder , guess , played , said , ismailov , look , \? says , yes well look , 're describing everything scene crime , right \? says , yes 're telling differently \? says , well maybe forgot ! like witnesses criminal said car going along mir street , crowd 80 people shagen volga gaz 21 80 people surrounded car , 80 involved one ismailov guy , tale 's unclear started pulling shagen car well , one says left side car , another says right side pulled sports jacket jacket well ask , 's nationality \? says , armenian well say crowd shouted , 's armenian , kill , kill ! started beating , broke seven ribs , heart n't know , something , 's awful tell anyway , say tale guy armature shaft says , picked , lying near bush , 's got said picked , witnesses say already said , hit twice , said , twice head rod said started beat shagen sitting ground , hit fell said , left , right nearby burning things something apartment , killing someone , says , came back look , shagen alive \? said , wanted finish , right , still alive , came back hit \? went back looked already dead , bastard tale said , went home said , little snake , said , thief murderer \? shagen money jacket , watch wrist taken says n't take overturned burned car , tale longer , people , turned car burned , n't clarified yet told investigator , trial n't know burned car \? said something , n't get saying said , still n't straightened everything , think 's unjust burned car lying next , fire spread death certificate says third degree burns 80 percent body ask , killed \? husband carpenter good craftsman , knew everything , even fixed car , hands three children three sons igor time older one , younger one serving army 're could n't sit way procurator read 15 years' deprivation freedom , went mind , n't know , said , \? , said , saying intentional murder sentence 15 years' deprivation freedom \? screamed , mind ! said , let , bare hands 'll relative restrained , military people lest said , n't soviet trial , unjust ! 's shouted , l said left said february 27 , people streaming street , shouting , long live turkey ! glory turkey ! trial said ismailov , mean , \? still n't understand turkey , live soviet union turkey told going help kill armenians \? still n't understand glory turkey ! asked question twice got answer one answered may 19 , 1988 yerevan reference 1 sumgait tragedy pogroms armenians soviet azerbaijan , volume , eyewitness accounts , edited samuel shahmuradian , forward yelena bonner , 1990 , published aristide caratzas , ny , pages 178 184 david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org explain turkish troops p center regional studies armenian border , ca n't p box 382761 even explain 1915 \? cambridge , 02238 turkish mp , march 1992
forsythe stanford edu \( vic filler \) subject deir yassin organization stanford university lines 56 nntp posting host morrow stanford edu article 1993apr19 cs rit edu , bdm cs rit edu \( brendan mckay \) writes previously posted quotations irgun participants totally destroys begin 's whitewash particular desire post yet brendan \( normally bdm cs anu edu au \) apparently think sort one man judge jury declare total victory sit back enjoy applause 've picked wrong topic think rigged quotations sustain legend lie deir yassin massacre lot learn comes historical methodology basic level , know big difference weighing evidence fairly merely finding quotations support preset opinions studied history israel must know many sources quotations axe grind , therefore must careful quote example , meir pa'il , cite , indeed general , scholar , war hero n't mean everything comes mouth gold fact \( lack experience shows \) , pa'il fanatic , leftist much anti israel blathering \( forget anti irgun blathering \) would considered something like treason non israel contexts course n't consider find quotation use attack israel benny morris \( \) represents scholar old attacks irgun n't fooled 's old zionist ideological , attack \( \) likud government look closely section deir yassin book war independence , see indictment pure hot air best decades digging sort evidence unfortunately , book parades scholarly , forced put footnotes clearly see deir yassin account based nothing deir yassin massacre never took place propagandists tell , sabra shatila massacres get feeling people like blame jews massacres , even make \? must sound spicy even jews like , reasons please , n't confuse deir yassin massacre stuff facts scholarship stick begin 's version unless find something serious contradict vic
cl056 cleveland freenet edu \( hamaza h salah \) subject israeli terrorism organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 16 reply cl056 cleveland freenet edu \( hamaza h salah \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu tsiel writes indeed israeli soldiers killed hamas mujahid anti tank missile i'm almost sure terrorist zionists would able cut body probably desintegrated missile maybe missile n't hit directly body gets desintegrated course , destroying 10 houses kill someone surgical operation , \? cl056 cleveland freenet edu \( h z \) foo e foo
cl056 cleveland freenet edu \( hamaza h salah \) subject israeli terrorism organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 20 reply cl056 cleveland freenet edu \( hamaza h salah \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu z magil writes surprises story yet made front pages major newspapers \( love make state israel look evil humanly possible \) ! story would eaten papers please explain never seen heard ! believe , i'm expecting reply know story came dreams ! ! ! ! would like remind jewish colleague much stories holocaust \( including ones u holocaust memorial museum \) eaten papers wait build cl056 cleveland freenet edu \( h z \) foo e foo
ucer ee rochester edu \( b ucer \) subject turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece \( armenia azeris \) organization university rochester department electrical engineering article 1993apr23 usage csd unsw oz au hydra maths unsw edu au \( \) writes 've heard many turks say n't read remember treaty sevres consequence axis powers wwi turks international law supposed look minorities ie greeks , armenians , kurds \( must say turk kurd relations improving slightly time \) pose threat turkey 's neighbours turks blatantly rejected treaty \( germans accepted versailles million times worse health pride german people \) greeks army , british french backing enforce sevres possibly first example appeasement young turk government managed screwed treaty weak allies , greek forces destroyed smyrna occurred , french warships harbour many greeks trying escape swam french warships climbed aboard get arms cut french 're way sides ships , , seems one supposed reading think major difference opinion legitimacy sevres first , signed ottoman empire therefore legally bind republic turkey new independence movement \( way , young turks \) naturally rejected hand say accept germans absurd saw harsh treaties hitler second , sevres treaty even worse versailles divided ottoman empire several influence zones , capital occupied , economy allied control , army di nothing police force , short country name 'd wonder would like live conditions record , donot feel sorry soldiers killed izmir harbour city , greek forces burned , serves right fooled allied promises , fault come anatolia enforce sevres take part plunder well k ucer
gt1091a prism gatech edu \( gt1091a gt1091a kaan , timucin \) subject lezgians azerbaijan daghestan organization georgia institute technology lines 16 hello , shit face david , see still around dont want see shitty writings posted man told getting itchy fucking country hey , dont give freedom speach bullshit freedom ended started writing things people try translate david bye , hade timucin kaan , timucin georgia institute technology , atlanta georgia , 30332 uucp ! decvax , hplabs , ncar , purdue , rutgers ! gatech ! prism ! gt1091a internet gt1091a prism gatech edu
aurag ere umontreal ca \( aurag hassan \) subject deir yassin organization universite de montreal lines 25 trying say massacres deir yassin sabra shatila \? let tell good jokes thing like jewish killing wwii palestinians davidians years fact one killed war time place people die one gets killed maybe also n't die vietnam war killed american napalm 's maybe jews liked gas chambers one forced get may thought like cocaine \? think \? n't stupid say \? well stupid said next time want lie intelligently sincerely hassan
chrism cirrus com \( chris metcalfe \) subject brendan mckay clarifies nazi racial theory organization cirrus logic inc lines 59 brendan mckay , maybe arf , would come rescue nazi racial theory distressing brendan \? point eugenic solution jewish problem elias proposed smacks pure nazism fact proposal cast entire problem one abnormal presence israeli society middle east , buried slam u aid israel midst even handed solution jewish question , made obvious mind jewish nazi doctrine rectification abnormal presence jewish people within larger body politic whether solution involves gas , monetary incentives poor jews marry , husseini said , zionist entity forcing engage normal surrounding arab culture , engaged nazi project obvious statement comment value lack value elias 's proposal still striking glancing blow , right brendan \? could easily see going , comment , nazi racial theory , anyway \? chris metcalfe \( someone else \) ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! article 1993apr22 cs rit edu bdm cs rit edu \( brendan mckay \) writes unconventional proposal peace middle east elias davidsson 5 emergence considerable number 'mixed' marriages israel palestine , would relatives 'both sides' divide , would make conflict lose ethnical unsoluble core strengthen emergence truly civil society existence strong 'mixed' stock people would also help integration israeli society sounds like racial theory hitler outlined mein kampf someone else said something similar comment value lack value elias 's proposal want say distressing least two people profoundly ignorant nazi racial doctrine like elias 's idea , like opposite nazis believed racial purity , racial assimilation instructive example nazi attitude gypsies according nazi , gypsies aryan race persecuted , huge numbers murdered , european considered pure gypsies formed pure race undesirable races key difference theoretical approach jews gypsies , way also true towards end wwii even gypsies hunted theory forgotten brendan \( email bdm cs anu edu au \)
astein nysernet org \( alan stein \) subject legality jewish purchase organization nysernet , inc lines 7 one may question motives arabs sold land jews , often publicly criticizing sale land jews , jews arabs taken advantage , prices jews paid barren land many times price fertile land sold united states time alan h stein astein israel nysernet org
astein nysernet org \( alan stein \) subject anti zionism racism organization nysernet , inc lines 14 b8ha000 b8ha musicb mcgill ca writes syria 's expansion , author writes un thought zionism racism wrong correct first time , zionism racism thankfully , mcgill daily \( student newspaper mcgill \) proud enough print article saying want copy , send mail steve felt important add four letters steve left subject header alan h stein astein israel nysernet org
kelvin seas virginia edu \( gregory \) subject turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece \( armenia azeris \) organization university virginia lines 59 article 93106 auvm american edu auvm american edu writes message id 1993apr15 174657 6176 news uiowa edu mr napoleon responds couple millions greeks living asia minor 1923 someone protect us \? \? \? taking advantage weakness ottoman empire grab land soon got green lights allied forces , occupied izmir cities western turkey killed raped millions people without reason course , paid price mustafa kemal ataturk made swim aegean sea far enough thru turkey anytime past get reward shall get anywhere n't swallow propaganda truth sir british promised \( greek pm \) mainly greek populated areas ottomans given greece , agree drag greece side british wwi \( greek king \) british succeeded bombarding athens \( 1916 \) , killing quite , forcing king , division greece two separate states \( north south \) , finally laying ground division greeks century \( n't feel bitter allies gave green light liked us \) anyway , british succeed establish , war starts second front germans south fighting war east russians , finally wwii came end british \( french \) forgot immediately promises \( usually \) even though publicly say support greek cause , practically nothing , instead , using usual reasoning crap rhetoric pretext , gradually backup kemal \( given british water bread dissolve ottoman contract small ethnic state \) main drive behind british switch plan keep muslim state region buffer russian expansion warm water facilities greek empire orthodox christian state prone become russian client , current state affairs established lands kemal promoted true giants british , since worked realize goals region plan , currently greece turkey recipients big military funds us functioning anti russian buffers , simultaneously remain good clients state dept otherwise use terror changing balance power aegean used exact rational see cyprus problem gr ps n't make anti whatever rhetoric situation region needs said previously mentioned powers anything special way anyone else functions throughout history n't selectively single relevant current afairs
dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) subject armenia says could shoot turkish planes organization p center regional studies lines 85 04 16 93 1045 armenia says could shoot turkish planes david moscow , april 16 , reuter armenia accused turkey friday flying weapons x troops across armenian airspace azerbaijan strongly hinted might try shoot planes , local journalists yerevan said separately , itar tass news agency said armenian forces halted latest offensive swallowed one tenth azerbaijan sent tensions region soaring journalists armenian capital quoted armen , head armenian defence ministry press centre , saying ankara sending planes 15 times day azerbaijan arms troops looks though armenian leadership warn turkey actions , journalists quoted saying steps pursued future recourse appropriate measures necessary means , including modern anti aircraft units turkey , shares border armenia , supported azerbaijan conflict mainly armenian populated nagorno karabakh region 2 , 500 people killed since fighting erupted 1988 turkish foreign ministry said friday far sent one plane azerbaijan containing humanitarian aid turkish foreign ministry spokesman thursday would comment directly report newspaper first rockets , rocket launchers , ammunition light weapons arrived azerbaijan turkey said turkey sending 30 trucks day carrying troops arms azeri autonomous territory nakhichevan , flown across armenian airspace azeri capital baku responsibility possible consequences borne country military assistance airspace , said armenia denies formal role conflict , saying troops involved fighting enclave tass said karabakh forces decided friday suspend offensive along entire armenian azerbaijani front karabakh authorities reportedly ready give independent inspectors chance see spot \( enclave 's \) leadership striving achieve , agency said armenian president ter called two stage karabakh arrived belarus capital friday summit commonwealth leaders first stage settlement involve securing protection karabakh population , tass quoted saying least 10 conflict collapsed second stage involve discussing finding solution legal issues , clarification status nagorno karabakh , said republic declared full independence last year move recognised country armenia insists separate karabakh delegation take part future peace talks , something azerbaijan rejects local news agencies baku said friday interior minister , fiery nationalist territorial dispute armenia , resigned turan news agency said quit thursday cleared office servis agency said would replaced military baku , police major general abdullah official confirmation david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org explain turkish troops p center regional studies armenian border , ca n't p box 382761 even explain 1915 \? cambridge , 02238 turkish mp , march 1992
dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) subject armenia says could shoot turkish planes news software vax vms vnews 1 41 organization university tennessee computing center lines 293 dear friends , graduate student education university tennessee part requirements research class music education designed questionnaire data research project study intends determine techniques \( \) used teach music deaf experience music education deaf would like help project , help would much appreciated also want exchange ideas subject matter , feel welcome working area \( brazil way , also us \) pleased results hope inquiry cause many thank time consideration questionnaire teaching music deaf children name address e mail employing institution years experience grade level \( \) educational background bachelor masters professional field special educ music educ checked , please indicate major school systems require music taught deaf children , school systems thought possibility teach music children hearing limitations following questionnaire designed find teachers face issue teaching teaching music deaf also , part study determine teachers attitudes towards music programs deaf children directions read following questions circle number best describes attitude towards music deaf children \( left column \) , circle appropriate yes , applicable , whether task \( right column \) sd strongly disagree yes dis disagree n neu neutral n applicable ag agree sa strongly agree sd dis neu ag sa n n 1 2 3 4 5 1 deaf children educated n n music 1 2 3 4 5 2 deaf children regular n n music classes 1 2 3 4 5 3 special music teacher must posses n n appropriate training variety communication methods use deaf children 1 2 3 4 5 4 preparing lessons teacher n n must keep mind deaf children may present special needs order participate musical activities 1 2 3 4 5 5 deaf normal hearing children n n music classes together 1 2 3 4 5 6 80 succesful music experience n n deaf child depends upon teacher 's creativity commitment subject matter 1 2 3 4 5 7 deaf children learn appreciate n n music never musician performer 1 2 3 4 5 8 deaf children able n n discriminate recognize sounds 1 2 3 4 5 9 deaf children distinguish n n among loud soft sounds 1 2 3 4 5 10 deaf children never match n n music head note musical instrument 1 2 3 4 5 11 appropriate material n n start music classes deaf would folk songs said would replaced military baku , police major general abdullah official confirmation david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org explain turkish troops p center regional studies armenian border , ca n't p box 382761 even explain 1915 \? cambridge , 02238 turkish mp , march 1992
dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) subject republic turkey sold 400 tones armenian bones 1924 keywords april 24 , 1993 , 78th anniversary turkish genocide armenians organization p center regional studies lines 68 cargo human bones 1 copyright , 1924 , new york times company special cable new york times paris , dec 22 , excited weird story arrival port ship flying british flag named carrying mysterious cargo 400 tons human bones manufacturers bones said loaded sea remains victims massacres asia minor view rumors circulating expected inquiry instigated reference 1 new york times , december 23 , 1924 , page 3 , column 2 \( bottom \) 78th commemorative anniversary turkish genocide armenians , remember whose crime armenian shadow emerging turkish proto fascist state names demand justice april 1915 , turkish government began systematically executed de population eastern anatolian homeland armenians genocidal extermination genocide insure turks exclusively ruled geographic area today called republic turkey result 1 5 million murdered , 30 billion dollars armenian property stolen plundered genocide ended nearly 3 , 000 years armenian civilization lands today , turkish government continues scrape clean prior armenian existence lands today 's turkish governmental policy write history era , manufacture distortion generate excuses genocide armenian people face refutation ad , turkish historical society cronies continue deny genocide occurred policy merely demonstrates modern era , genocide effective state policy remains un redressed un punished crime crime encouraged adolf hitler took cue less 25 years successful genocide armenians turkey claims systematic deportation armenians , yet armenians removed every city , town , village whole turkey ! armenians resisted deportation massacre referred rebels turkey claims genocide armenians , yet turkish population figures today show zero armenians eastern turkey , armenian homeland turkey claims armenians always small minority , yet turkey claims armenians threat final insult victims , republic turkey sold bones approximately 100 , 000 murdered armenians profit europe today , turkish government enjoying fruits genocide success genocide hangs heads turkey 's kurdish population armenians demand recognition , , return armenian land property lost result genocide armenians demand justice ermeniler david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org armenia learned lesson p center regional studies anatolia forgotten p box 382761 punishment inflicted 4 14 93 cambridge , 02238 late turkish president turgut ozal
hilmi er dsv su se \( hilmi eren \) subject armenia says could shoot turkish planes \( henrik \) lines 95 nntp posting host dsv su se reply hilmi er dsv su se \( hilmi eren \) organization dept computer systems sciences , stockholm university student regional killings alias davidian \( davidian sect \) writes greater armenia would stretch karabakh , black sea , mediterranean , use term greater armenia use care finally said dream mediterranean \? \? \? \? new area greater years , like holocaust numbers always azeris end announced winning karabakh removing armenians ! president azerbaijan , elchibey , came power last year , announced would swimming lake july july usa \? \? \? \? \? sweden 's april still cold changed calendar \? \? \? well , wrong ! elchibey going shell armenians karabakh , people pay price ! elchibey going shell karabakh fizuli people pay price ! elchibey thinks get away bombing armenia hills kelbajar , people pay price nothing mentioned true , let say 's true shall azeri women children going pay price raped , killed tortured armenians \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? \? something called geneva convention \? \? \? \? \? \? \? facist ! ! ! ! ! forgot , armenians fight , nobody forgot killings , torture kurds turks upon time ! anyway , 60 kurd refugee story , stories , simple fabrications baku , modified ankara examples armenia border iran , ridiculous story intercepting armenian military conversations appeared new york times supposedly translated somebody unknown , armenian azeri turkish , submitted unnamed special correspondent ny times baku real accurate ! swedish workers lie \? ever say regional killer , n't like person shoot 's policy l search turkish planes \? n't know talking since 's content announced weapons \? well , big mouth ozal said military weapons provided azerbaijan turkey , yet demirel others say wonder confused ! confused \? \? \? \? \? facist delete text n't change , wrote search turkish planes \? n't know talking turkey 's government announced 's giving weapons azerbadjan since armenia started attack azerbadjan self , karabag province search plane weapons since 's content announced weapons \? one 's confused 's ! right \( \) give weapons azeris , since armenians started fight azerbadjan ! correct , turkish planes simply shot ! nice , slow moving air transports ! shoot \? armenian bread butter \? arms personel russian army \? hilmi eren stockholm university
nntp posting host ifi uio ifi uio \( michael \) subject zionism racism organization dept informatics , university oslo , norway lines 18 originator ifi uio article 20apr93 vm1 mcgill ca , b8ha000 b8ha musicb mcgill ca writes syria 's expansion , author writes un thought zionism racism wrong correct first time , zionism racism thankfully , mcgill daily \( student newspaper mcgill \) proud enough print article saying want copy , send mail steve article zionism \? something else majority people heard emitting ignorant statement , really know zionism associated think know political situation middle east steve lets , zionism \? michael
bds uts ipp garching mpg de \( bruce scott \) subject news briefs kh 1026 organization rechenzentrum der max planck garching lines 21 distribution world nntp posting host uts ipp garching mpg de mack posted know nothing statistics , significance relatively small population growth rate sampling period small \( end 1371 \) \? small 2 7 per cent annual population growth rate implies doubling 69 2 7 approx 25 years imagine \? people seem able , many deny problem exists , especially countries \( low growth rates , large environmental impact \) iran 's high growth rate threatens things like accelerated desertification due intensive agriculture , deforestation , water table drop similar going california \( year 's rain wo n't save stanford ! \) probably blame current government 's incompetence dropping living standards iran , dr bruce scott deadliest bullshit max planck institut fuer transparent bds aug ipp garching mpg de w gibson
dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) subject accounts anti armenian human right violations azerbaijan 011 summary prelude current events nagorno karabakh organization p center regional studies lines 210 accounts anti armenian human right violations azerbaijan 011 prelude current events nagorno karabakh right , slaughter armenians ! 's need afraid , moscow behind us even heard moscow behind us well watched listened realized joke deposition yuri born 1953 line electrician sumgait administration resident building 4 21 , apartment 29 block 14 , narimanov street sumgait azerbaijan spent almost february overhaul 27th short day work , worked eleven eleven thirty left home decided go short walk went park walked past eternal flame saw group 8 10 people standing walked another 15 20 yards heard automobile brakes behind turned head toward sound light blue gaz 24 volga see people standing gone car man woman get man dressed , suit , woman n't anything head , hair let , hair , heavy set woman 're 40 45 years old get something trunk people start help become curious pulling \? got close heard turn something n't see , probably tape recorder put ground near eternal flame honoring 26 baku formed tight circle around ask , 's going \? someone tells , come listen well azerbaijanis , asked azerbaijani hear appeals brother muslims , time come something else along line n't understand walked around group trying get look owner tape recorder circle drew tighter new people started coming various directions , five , seven comments started right , slaughter armenians ! 's need afraid , moscow behind us even heard moscow behind us well watched listened realized joke quietly left went home work heard something going karabagh , demonstrations well , people saying kinds things , n't idea really going wife son home , daughter aunt 's house baku n't say anything wife sat drank tea sometime around two o'clock right behind house suddenly noise , whistling , shouting looked window saw crowd crowd moving slowly , like show tv blacks south africa striking demonstration move slowly wife asks 's going say n't know put outdoor clothes went find crowd people shouting armenians ! death armenians ! waited entire crowd pass first went narimanov street side sk club city party committee turned went traffic 's one way street 26 baku toward line went home told wife demonstration going fact thought kind demonstrations yerevan karabagh aside things shouting , surprised young people crowd minors , draft age wife son wanted go upstairs visit friend , kind uneasy said , , let 's stay home instead hour went , maybe hour half well , n't keeping track time , ca n't say exactly long look see another crowd narimanov , side , bazaar , movie theater put outside clothes went 's noise , uproar outside , crowd grown people whereas first time individual shouts , time focused , aggressive , think , something 's wrong , n't demonstration would run , stop , walk quickly make sharp , run walking along sidewalk street followed thinking 'd watch see knew leading \? came lenin square square sk club one side , city party committee went toward square heard noise shouting , though whole town turned sort rally going go closer hear , appeals heard anti armenian anti soviet appeals n't need , want go living like mean living like \? azerbaijanis work like everyone else many people live expense government expense others speculation , theft , cheating go time azerbaijan , everywhere , republics , 've never seen anywhere else like azerbaijan rally someone says go around apartments drive , beat drive true , n't hear say kill microphone , heard beat drive stayed square minutes longer first one , another going onto stage , one tries stop crowd side crowd small groups three four people , think ministry internal affairs state security kgb also uniformed policemen , n't see try pacify crowd new people kept coming onto stage well finally decided could end badly demonstration , protect family left square return home suddenly noticed truck next city party committee , narimanov street , stood next tai lor 's shop , low truck , low , wooden panels see thing unloaded , sort decided go look appeals thought might weapons pulled onto square , toward city party committee , toward sk club went right saw cases vodka two people handing cases bed truck , ground many people , 15 20 handing truck case carried two people two people , one case vodka man standing right next truck handing black lumps , maybe size fist , maybe little bigger smaller passed next person , stood side yard half us , two people standing near package hand , 's pulling handing never smoked tried fun , 've seen lot people smoke , 've seen many times , know around one asked got glass bazaar heard howling , shouting turned around saw running well 'll keep going like , thought caught saw carrying flags recognized person carrying flag side street 's young guy , 21 22 years old carrying red flag , ermeni written azerbaijani , means death armenians ! guy used live courtyard us n't really know name , know father well father 's name rafik used cook , became head chef used dark blue zhiguli van , sold white zhiguli 06 family , said , lived courtyard building narimanov street , street 26 baku apartment far entryway , fifth floor , door left rafik 's little brother lives , , rafik , heard , got new apartment either forth eighth microdistrict word , son carrying flag said death armenians ! surprised gotten impression nonsense done people sumgait , azerbaijanis agdam kafan well anyway went home wife upset told , 's ok , 'll pass , 're young kids , 've gotten naturally n't want get overly upset new surge crowd went time breaking glass could hear breaking , could n't see well think , go , machine 's motion n't handing vodka nothing n't see people drinking smoking spot , certainly n't unloaded vodka put store window ! thought flashed head machine running , one would stop , n't even trying , although , 'll say , police , saw 's police n't breaking , joking , good time true , time could n't even imagine government , much vaunted leadership i'm afraid say words many people died , many women abused , many abominations ! could n't imagine much vaunted authorities , specific , would say much touted authorities city sumgait , could n't imagine things could take place started breaking glass told wife son let 's go upstairs went neighbors , , fourth floor evening , crowds started going past , went outside stopped corner , place called right next bazaar look see crowd run , yards entrance bazaar , three respectable looking men around , say , 50 years old crowd running one three waved arm pointed toward bazaar whole crowd , though one person , wheeled raced toward bazaar soul went past three , though limits ! well everything got , noise , glass flying spent night neighbors' apartment first floor , really way defend morning went buy bread see happening town way saw someone , still never found happened 10 15 people standing near got bread way back , gathered around person lying , sort way standing could n't even see morning february 28 everyone knows rest may 17 , 1988 yerevan reference 1 sumgait tragedy pogroms armenians soviet azerbaijan , volume , eyewitness accounts , edited samuel shahmuradian , forward yelena bonner , 1990 , published aristide caratzas , ny , pages 161 164 david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org explain turkish troops p center regional studies armenian border , ca n't p box 382761 even explain 1915 \? cambridge , 02238 turkish mp , march 1992
magnus acs ohio state edu \( amir \) subject u wants iran end terrorism links nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 27 washington \( upi \) senior state department official tuesday ruled u attitudes toward iraq said relations iran 's islamic regime could improve substantially government international terrorism name calling harsh rhetoric across gulf , despite , take position permanent hostility towards islamic republic iran , '' david mack , deputy assistant secretary near eastern affairs , said primary u objection 's international includes support disrupt arab israeli peace process rapid build dangerous weapons mack said could contribute regional stability peace first end behaviour threatens area '' mack spoke u gcc business conference aimed promoting gulf american trade said east item high agenda u administration '' importance gulf underlined secretary state warren 's visit last year saudi arabia kuwait anywhere else world , mack said added u long term plan station troops gulf mack also insisted clinton administration continue pressure iraq u n security resolutions '' ``as long iraq ruled saddam hussein expect compliance , '' mack told delegates copyright 1993 upi
center policy research cpr igc apc org subject final solution gaza \? nf id n cdp 1483500354 000 nf cdp uucp ! cpr apr 23 15 10 00 1993 lines 126 center policy research cpr subject final solution gaza \? final solution gaza ghetto \? israeli jews fete uprising warsaw ghetto , repress violent means uprising gaza ghetto attempt starve gazans gaza strip , tiny area land highest population density world , cut world weeks israeli occupier decided punish whole population gaza , 700 000 people , denying right leave strip seek work israel polish non jews risked lives save jews ghetto , israeli jew known risked life help gazan resistance help given gazans israeli jews , dozens people , humanitarian assistance right gazan population resist occupation recognized international law person sense justice population denied basic human rights entitled rise known , israeli regime considering gazans unworthy israeli citizenship equal rights israel , although considered worthy dirty work israeli hotels , shops fields many gazans born towns villages located israel may live , areas reserved master race nazi regime accorded residents warsaw ghetto right self administration selected jews pacify occupied population preventing form resistance jewish collaborators killed israel also wishes rule gaza arab collaborators israel denies gazans two options compatible basic human rights international law , becoming israeli citizens full rights respecting right self determination , must concluded israeli jewish society consider gazans full human beings attitude consistent attitude nazis towards jews current policies israeli government cutting gaza consistent wish publicly expressed prime yitzhak rabin sink sea' one led ask oneself whether israeli leaders entertain still sinister goals towards gazans \? whether final solution sleeve \? urge slight human compassion whatever help gazans regain full human , civil political rights , entitled human beings elias davidsson iceland elias ismennt fri apr 23 02 30 21 1993 received igc apc org \( 4 1 revision 1 77 \) id fri , 23 apr 93 02 30 13 pdt received ismennt \( 5 14 10 91 \) fri , 23 apr 1993 09 29 41 gmt received ismennt \( 16 8 11 02 92 \) fri , 23 apr 93 09 30 23 gmt elias ismennt \( elias davidsson \) message id ismennt subject subject \( file transmission \) cpr igc org date fri , 23 apr 93 9 30 22 gmt x charset ascii x char esc 29 status ro final solution gaza ghetto \? israeli jews fete uprising warsaw ghetto , repress violent means uprising gaza ghetto attempt starve gazans gaza strip , tiny area land highest population density world , cut world weeks israeli occupier decided punish whole population gaza , 700 000 people , denying right leave strip seek work israel polish non jews risked lives save jews ghetto , israeli jew known risked life help gazan resistance help given gazans israeli jews , dozens people , humanitarian assistance right gazan population resist occupation recognized international law person sense justice population denied basic human rights entitled rise known , israeli regime considering gazans unworthy israeli citizenship equal rights israel , although considered worthy dirty work israeli hotels , shops fields many gazans born towns villages located israel may live , areas reserved master race nazi regime accorded residents warsaw ghetto right self administration selected jews pacify occupied population preventing form resistance jewish collaborators killed israel also wishes rule gaza arab collaborators israel denies gazans two options compatible basic human rights international law , becoming israeli citizens full rights respecting right self determination , must concluded israeli jewish society consider gazans full human beings attitude consistent attitude nazis towards jews current policies israeli government cutting gaza consistent wish publicly expressed prime yitzhak rabin sink sea' one led ask oneself whether israeli leaders entertain still sinister goals towards gazans \? whether final solution sleeve \? urge slight human compassion whatever help gazans regain full human , civil political rights , entitled human beings elias davidsson iceland
center policy research cpr igc apc org subject symbiotics zionism antisemitism nf id n cdp 000 nf cdp uucp ! cpr apr 23 15 14 00 1993 lines 197 center policy research cpr subject symbiotics zionism antisemitism zionism holocaust first point note regarding appropriation history holocaust zionist propaganda zionism without anti semitism impossible zionism agrees basic tenet anti semitism , namely jews cannot live non jews history roots holocaust go back long way death destruction operate 1942 , roots firmly placed 19th century jewish aspirations emerged national struggles europe hopes liberation democratic change dashed , alternatives improving lot jews europe achieved prominence socialist bund , mass movement enormous following , contend opposition new small , almost insignificant opponent , political zionists outline two offered opposed options jews europe bund suggesting joining forces rest europe 's workers , zionists proposing new programme aimed europe jews setting form jewish state historically , nothing inevitable , depends balance forces involved struggle history seen option tree every time certain option chosen , routes become barred choice , movement backwards point choice made impossible zionism option taken many young jews , remained minority position first days 3rd reich zionist federation germany \( \) , organisation representing tiny minority german jews , selected nazis body represent jews reich flag organisation allowed fly berlin , international organisation allowed operate period marginal position , leaders zionist federation propelled prominence surprised even sudden attained political power , power based representation , selected choice nazi regime dealing 'jewish problem' position negotiating nazis agreements affected lives many tens thousands jews germany transformed utopian , marginal organisation germany \( countries europe \) real option considered german jews best example 1934 immediately nazi takeover 1933 , jews world supported world wide boycott german goods campaign hurt nazi regime german authorities searched frantically way disabling boycott clear jews jewish organisations pull , campaign would collapse problem solved letter sent nazi party early 21 june 1933 , outlined degree agreement existed two organisations question race , nation , nature 'jewish problem' , offered collaborate new regime zionism could hurt resentment jews abroad german development boycott propaganda currently carried germany many ways essence , zionism wants battle convince build gain credence backing new regime , zionist organisation managed undermine boycott main public act signature transfer agreement nazi authorities zionist congress 1934 essence , agreement designed get germany 's jews country mandate palestine provided possibility jews take sizeable part property country , transfer german goods palestine right denied jews leaving destination zionist organisation acting agent , financial organisations agreement operated number fronts jews leave country , breaking ring boycott , german goods large quantities palestine , last least , enabling regime seen humane reasonable even towards enemies , jews , argued , jews belong europe jews come agree news agreement broke , boycott doomed zionist organization found possible necessary deal nazis , import goods , could argue boycott \? first time interests movements presented german public baron von , first head jewish department ss , later followed eichmann , invited travel palestine early 1933 , company zionist leader , kurt spent six months palestine , wrote series favourable articles der describing 'new zionism , jew nazis could accept understand little known episode established quite clearly relationship early days nazism , new regime , relationship echoed later number key instances , even nature final solution became clear many cases meant reports horrors book concentrating aspect zionist reaction holocaust post zionism holocaust , b beth zvi case kastner episode , around jim allen 's play based , even normal excuse lack knowledge real nature events exist occured near end war ussr advanced almost germany italy african bases lost nazis run , number key countries , rumania , leaving axis second front matter months away , western allies prepared forces midst find eichmann , master bureaucrat industrial murder , setting hz occupied budapest , german takeover country april 1944 first act conference jewish leadership , appoint zionist federation members , headed kastner agent clearing house jews relationship ss authorities difficult see opposed poland , three half million jews lived visibly different rest polish population , hungarian jews integrated part community middle class mainly jewish , jews mainly middle class enjoyed freedom travel , served hungarian \( fascist \) army units , officers soldiers , names hungarian eichmann find exterminated \? task easy , million jews hungary , resident , rest refugees countries many heard fate jews elsewhere , unlikely believe statements nazi officials like elsewhere , people information ear frightened jewish population case mainly zionist federation members without help ss , 19 officers less 90 men , plus hundred hungarian police , could collected controlled million jews , even know whereabouts kastner others left illusions eichmann told joel brand , one members kastner 's committee , intended send hungary 's jews auschwitz , even started ! told clearly jews die , 12 , 000 day , unless certain conditions met committee faced simple choice tell jews hungary fate , \( neutral rumania , many could escape , cases hours away \) collaborate nazis assisting concentration process would believed coming ss , sounded quite plausible coming mouths zionist leadership thus , hungarian jews went quietly death , assured leadership sent work camps sure , thirty pieces silver narrative destruction trains eichmann promised kastner promise kept last detail eichmann bargain allowing 1 , 680 jews survive , price paid silent collaboration death almost million jews way jews hungary could even located , say murdered , without full collaboration kastner friends doubt ss would hunt jews , scale operation would miniscule compared half million died auschwitz important realise kastner aberration , like say kastner acted result strongly held zionist convictions actions logical outcome earlier positions exposed gestapo existence british cell , , persuaded give , disrupt operations point trial elsewhere , kastner deny knew exactly happen jews conclude , role played zionists period , connected another role could , played , alarming whole world happening europe information , politically contrary priorities priorities , still , quite simple zionist enterprise palestine followed , whatever price lives individuals , jews non jews , secondary process requires dealing fascists , nazis assorted regimes across world ,
center policy research cpr igc apc org subject hebrew labor racist connotations nf id n cdp 000 1777 nf cdp uucp ! cpr apr 23 15 18 00 1993 lines 37 center policy research cpr subject hebrew labor racist connotations hebrew labor hebrew labor concept served zionist movement long time double barreled message 1 \) new jew must learn physical labor , e working land 2 \) land country must pass jewish hands , e new jew learned work aspects two concept hebrew labor racist connotations one hand , diaspora jew 's lack training physical labor myth shared zionists antisemites hand , meaning practice displacement arab farmer source livelihood occupation cheap palestinian labor occupied territories factories , , hot houses israel relegated myth hebrew labor history books memories zionist movement forth anew , however , government 's answer problems caused closure territories today concept two functions 1 \) give progressive look closing palestinian population words environment minister yossi sarid , tears get rich cheap labor 2 \) furnish answer unemployed israeli complains obliged work wages lower unemployment insurance receives israeli government considering plans import labor far east replace native people , palestinians , work country , thus creating conflicting interests two ethnical communities ruling
arens isi edu \( yigal arens \) subject adl spying case organization usc information sciences institute lines 222 distribution world nntp posting host grl isi edu los angeles times , tuesday , april 13 , 1993 p a1 new details extensive adl spy operation emerge inquiry transcripts reveal nearly 40 years espionage man infiltrated political groups richard c paddock , times staff writer san francisco outside world , roy bullock small time art dealer operated house castro district reality , undercover spy picked garbage secret files anti defamation league nearly 40 years code name prominent jewish organization cal , successful political groups chosen head arab american delegation visited rep nancy \( san francisco \) washington , c , office time , cal tapped phone message system white aryan resistance learn hate crimes police sources obtained privileged , personal information least 1 , 394 people met agents south african government trade knowledge crisp , new 100 bills among secrets bullock david gurvitz , former los angeles based operative , extensive interviews police fbi growing scandal nation wide intelligence network operated anti defamation league officials anti defamation league , denying improper activity , said cooperate investigation refused discuss bullock gurvitz transcripts interviews among nearly 700 pages documents released san francisco prosecutors last week offer new details private spy operation authorities crossed line illegal territory times , intelligence activities took cloak dagger air payments , shredded documents , hotel rendezvous foreign agents code names like flipper one occasion , gurvitz , received tip pro palestinian activist board plane bound haifa , israel although anti defamation league publicly denies ties israel , gurvitz phoned israeli official warn shortly afterward , another official called gurvitz back court papers also added mystery tom gerard , former cia agent san francisco police officer accused providing confidential material police files anti defamation league gerard fled philippines last fall interviewed fbi , left behind briefcase police locker contents included passports , driver 's licenses identification cards 10 different names identification cards name four american embassies central america collection blank birth certificates , army discharge papers official various agencies also briefcase extensive information death squads , black hood , apparently use interrogations , photos blindfolded chained men investigators suspect gerard police sources gave adl confidential driver 's license vehicle registration information vast number people , including many 4 , 500 members one target group , arab american anti discrimination committee case obtaining data law enforcement officer would constitute felony , san francisco police inspector ron roth noted affidavit search warrant anti defamation league , self described jewish defense civil rights organization , acknowledges long collected information groups anti semitic , extremist racist adl 's fact finding division , headed suall new york , enjoys reputation thoroughness often shared information police agencies journalists however , evidence seized bullock 's computer shows kept files least 950 groups political stripes , including american civil liberties union , earth island institute , united farm workers , jews jesus , mother jones magazine , center investigative reporting , bo gritz president committee , asian law caucus aids activist group act computer files also included information several members congress , including , house armed services committee chairman ron \( berkeley \) former republican rep pete bay area statements , bullock gurvitz said anti defamation league collected information political activists los angeles area 30 years said worked closely three los angeles county sheriff 's deputies specialized intelligence work , los angeles police department anti terrorism expert san diego county sheriff 's department intelligence officer spokesman los angeles sheriff 's department said knew nothing contact deputies adl los angeles police department , earlier refused cooperate investigation , san diego sheriff 's department declined comment bullock , 58 , one intriguing characters spy drama although jewish , began working undercover volunteer adl fbi indiana 1954 reading book man infiltrated communist party bullock moved los angeles 1960 given paid position adl intelligence operative , told authorities mid 1970s , moved san francisco continued spy operations west coast keep identity secret , salary always beverly hills attorney bruce hochman never missed payment 32 years , bullock said investigator adl investigated anti democratic movements , bullock said officially , i'm contract worker bruce hochman way , league would officially connected bullock said became master groups communists arab american gay radicals , usually using name adopting alias elmer fink i'm one kind , told police recent years , however , adl affiliation increasingly become known , one point confronted armed shotgun threatened kill mid 1980s , helped san francisco police solve bombing synagogue combing trash extremist cory phelps matching handwriting samples threatening letter obtained police part investigation , became close friends gerard , time working san francisco police intelligence division bullock frequently searched garbage target groups fbi report noted investigated one palestinian group bullock would write reports based found trash , would share reports gerard bullock also gave trash gerard gerard examine gerard would later return trash bullock wide range sources , bullock compiled files 9 , 876 individuals 950 political groups gerard , whose files contained many identical entries , kept files 7 , 011 people 1987 , bullock gerard began selling vast wealth information south african government bullock tells meetings secretly south african agents san francisco hotels receiving envelopes filled thousands dollars new 100 bills bullock insists information sold consisted data public sources item published san francisco chronicle columnist herb caen south african bishop desmond wife prominent attorney melvin submitted work bullock said gerard sold official police intelligence bullock said split 16 , 000 south african government evenly gerard , telling one point , may gay i'm straight arrow interviews police fbi , bullock talked freely engaging certain activities prosecutors say would appear violate law example , bullock admitted receiving driver 's license records criminal histories gerard 50 people fraction confidential police data found computer said gerard gave complete san francisco police department intelligence files various nazi groups supposed destroyed department policy bullock said also received confidential fbi report nation islam later shredded anti defamation league 's san francisco office bullock seemed proud operation eavesdrop , used paid informant , code named scumbag , help tap white aryan resistance phone message network , listening messages left members right wing group short time , wonderful , told police los angeles , adl operative gurvitz hired four years ago fact finder keep intelligence files occasionally go undercover meetings target groups among things , told san francisco authorities , los angeles adl office kept record arab american anti israel leanings wrote letter newspaper expressing sentiment gurvitz recently forced resign incident attempted misuse adl intelligence network seek revenge rival got job gurvitz wanted simon center holocaust studies gurvitz got confidential police data rival threatened expose jewish spy right wing hate group gurvitz since begun cooperating police fbi probe , providing considerable information adl operation unlike bullock , assured subject investigation gurvitz declined father los angeles interviewed times bullock 's attorney said client would comment yigal arens usc isi tv made ! arens isi edu
gfeygin unicorn eecg toronto edu \( feygin \) subject kol israel organization electrical computer engineering , university toronto lines 5 anyone schedule kol israel broadcasts different languages could posted e mailed assistance would greatly appreciated gf
reply dcs witsend tnet com c sessions dcs witsend tnet com organization nobody really x newsposter tmail version 1 20r subject zionism racism distribution world lines 23 1993apr21 ifi uio , ifi uio \( michael \) wrote article 20apr93 vm1 mcgill ca , b8ha000 b8ha musicb mcgill ca writes syria 's expansion , author writes un thought zionism racism wrong correct first time , zionism racism thankfully , mcgill daily \( student newspaper mcgill \) proud enough print article saying want copy , send mail article zionism \? something else majority people heard emitting ignorant statement , really know zionism associated think know political situation middle east steve lets , zionism \? assuming mean , n't told , zionism racism tautological statement c sessions speaking note new network address dcs witsend tnet com author \( everything else ! \) tmail \( dos mail news shell \)
oyalcin iastate edu \( onur yalcin \) subject armenia says could shoot turkish planes organization iowa state university , ames , ia lines 28 article 1993apr20 kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes article 1993apr20 iastate edu , oyalcin iastate edu \( onur yalcin \) writes oy deleted oy oy really interested , provide number references oy issue send email think stupid ask references ! ! many greek friends could ask info needed already read many articles need help boy , generous ! ! narrow margin stupidity accepting references greeks , said 'd rather latter ! 's fine sincere offer , saves effort n't take half man go library check bunch sources decent objectivity ask good friend help ! \) stay roads , onur yalcin onur yalcin oyalcin iastate edu un
jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) subject nazi eugenic theories circulated organization department redundancy department lines 68 article igc apc org center policy research cpr igc apc org writes ps proposal nothing nazi eugenics search peace would enable justice n't consider justice done , non jews fled expelled 1948 1967 permitted return homeland jews expelled homelands iraq , syria , jordan , algeria , etc \? n't deserve justice , \? best called , nice word legitimizing rule strong never called justice criticism always directed israel , never arab states , even much guilty accusations make \? call palestinean \? peace without justice never peace land peace formula foolish land land peace peace seems much , except would cost arabs something consideration let 's forget half israel 's population refugees arab countries somehow , land occupied arab states homes lived arab people included negotiations prescription peace \? conviction situation state , law , attempts discourage mixed marriages \( israel \) , normal state resembles nazi germany south africa western democracies , united states , jews free marry wish thousands , 've somehow managed overlook fact arab states much restrictive points fact , officially policies almost arab states makes resemble nazi germany closely american jews enjoy fact would love live state termed christian state green cards stamped mark jew many states christians live happily , many official religions christian christian based laws 2 dozen arab islamic states 1 \( one \) jewish state problem \? one jewish state many \? others might agree , know would ask genuinely interested exchange views personal refrain emotional , infantile might readers infer jews respect judaism uncivilized behaviour good judaism arrived tpm recently \? \? \? , supporters arab islamic camps frequently massively guilty emotional , infantile weakened positions dramatically somehow , criticisms one sided simple minded p 's fund coming along \? jake livni jake bony1 bony com ten years , george bush american occupied new york replaced jimmy carter opinions employer opinions standard failed president
jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) subject ten questions israel organization department redundancy department lines 66 article arens grl isi edu arens isi edu \( yigal arens \) writes issue trial behind closed doors , arrest , trial imprisonment complete secrecy attempted case vanunu failed happened , reason believe still goes lengthy article quote n't imply states somehow possible , way likely akin article saying possible usaf several captured ufos , without supporting assertion read ma'ariv , february 18 \( possibly 28 \) , 1992 publication ban baruch involved matter politely refused request , one way another look , subject delicate comment , implicitly admitting true mention specific case , even hint , might guilty making public something may legally published words , telling reporter keep guessing israel maintains attitude nuclear weapons may may us maintains attitude presence nuclear weapons specific naval craft refusing acknowledge existence weapons specific ships , us warships , believe , become unwelcome new zealand , declared nuclear free zone state israel never officially admitted many years prisons israeli citizens sentenced long prison terms without either fact arrest crimes accused ever made public precisely court ordered publication ban placed fact arrest , later imprisonment usaf never officially admitted ufos , either israel 1993 , citizens imprisoned without us , citizens country , knowing anything knowing anything fact one person another tried thrown prison , security offenses , complete secrecy stated fact without supporting evidence would 've convincing reporter come one name someone sitting jail , lost world , suggests maybe elvis , jfk , somebody let 's put way israel put people away without arrests legal proceedings , disappearance explained \? people relatives , friends colleagues , know israel known place people made vanish would care give us list people whose whereabouts unknown \? people presumed imprisoned \? whole conspiracy story n't something 've come associate yigal arens perhaps , jake livni jake bony1 bony com ten years , george bush american occupied new york replaced jimmy carter opinions employer opinions standard failed president
hovig uxa cso uiuc edu \( hovig heghinian \) subject republic turkey sold 400 tones armenian bones 1924 keywords april 24 , 1993 , 78th anniversary turkish genocide armenians organization university illinois urbana lines 42 dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) writes 78th commemorative anniversary turkish genocide armenians , remember whose crime armenian shadow emerging turkish proto fascist state names demand justice april 1915 , turkish government began systematically executed de population eastern anatolian homeland armenians genocidal extermination genocide insure turks exclusively ruled geographic area today called republic turkey result 1 5 million murdered , 30 billion dollars armenian property stolen plundered genocide ended nearly 3 , 000 years armenian civilization lands today , turkish government continues scrape clean prior armenian existence lands today 's turkish governmental policy write history era , manufacture distortion generate excuses genocide armenian people face refutation ad , turkish historical society cronies continue deny genocide occurred policy merely demonstrates modern era , genocide effective state policy remains un redressed un punished crime crime encouraged adolf hitler took cue less 25 years successful genocide armenians armenians demand justice ermeniler david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org armenia learned lesson p center regional studies anatolia forgotten p box 382761 punishment inflicted 4 14 93 cambridge , 02238 late turkish president turgut ozal say hear , hear motion seconded hovig hovig heghinian university illinois urbana champaign department computer science
ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) subject israel 's expansion ii organization university virginia lines 7 understand israel captured feels right annex ca n't fully understand deal palestinians much way jews treated holocaust \( final solution \) hitler totally n't get u subsidize existance thorough abuser human rights wondering
ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) subject israeli terrorism organization university virginia lines 15 well i'm sure story nad seem biased disagree statement u media ruin israels reputation rediculous u media pro israeli media world lived europe realize incidences one described letter occured u media whole seem try ignore u subsidizing israels existance europeans \( least degree \) think might reason report clearly atrocities shame austria , daily reports inhuman acts commited israeli soldiers blessing received government makes holocaust guilt go away , look jews treating races got power unfortunate
enis cbnewsg cb att com \( enis \) subject armenia says could shoot turkish planes organization lines 4 armenia says could shoot turkish planes armenia pot piss let alone shooting modern war planes
farzin ntt jp \( farzin mokhtarian \) subject kh news 1026 originator sehari iastate edu organization ntt corp japan lines 23 wrote 1026 dr namaki , deputy minister health stated infant mortality \( one year old \) iran went 120 per thousand revolution 33 per thousand end 1371 \( last month \) dr namaki also stated revolution children received protect various deseases figure reached end 1371 something funny happens percent sign paragraph , vaccination rate went 25 percent 93 percent farzin
ee umanitoba ca \( \) subject pbs frontline iran bomb nntp posting host ee umanitoba ca organization elect comp engineering , u manitoba , winnipeg , manitoba , canada lines 75 would like share netters points picked pbs frontline program regarding iran 's nuclear activities , aired tuesday april 13 sake brevity , 'll present separate points 1 many western programs , program laid bed misinformation throughout program , maximize effect program viewer follows alleged late imam khomeini objected shah 's technological anti islamic , things changed proof change iranian merchants selling personal computers ! ridiculous lies , one make objectives islamic revolution shah state technology iran revolution iran equally accused using chemical weapons iraqi aggressors never proof regard , nobody seen iraqi soldiers civilians injured iranian chemical weapons , contrary whole world seen iranian soldiers civilians , injured iraqi chemical weapons number martyrs sacred defense iraqi aggression officially announced 117 , 000 even radical counter revolutionary groups claim iran iraq total one million dead , program claims iran alone one million dead left war translation iranian talks 100 true example iranian head atomic energy says hurts see iran subject unfriendly propaganda translator says hurts see iran unfriendly research ! 2 almost alleged devices material bought planned bought iranians countless dual usage , program tries undermine non military uses , without reference iran 's big population inevitable need sources energy near future current deficit electrical power 3 whole program trying show university technology nuclear research center , even program know well country like iran without tightly closed society one make nuclear bomb university ! taking account scientific advancement u engineering fields potential role improvement iran 's industries eventually lives people , obvious persuading countries prevent helping university ones scientific industrial efforts 4 key point program 's justifications trying much possible efforts done iaea numerous visits iran 's different sites say sure places visited iaea real ones ! , rely iaea 's reports observation , failed see iraq 's nuclear activities n't know iraq trying build nuclear weapons ! 5 extremely personal opinion , disgusting aspect program arrogance member us senate foreign affairs , william , way talking , god talking absolute knowledge ! hope iranians aware gradual buildup country western media , hope iranian authorities continue wise calculated approach regard international affairs peaceful friendly nations mohammad international atomic energy agency
bdm cs rit edu \( brendan mckay \) subject deir yassin nntp posting host organization rochester institute technology , rochester , ny lines 103 article morrow stanford edu forsythe stanford edu \( vic filler \) writes article 1993apr19 cs rit edu , bdm cs rit edu \( brendan mckay \) writes previously posted quotations irgun participants totally destroys begin 's whitewash particular desire post yet brendan \( normally bdm cs anu edu au \) apparently think sort one man judge jury \? declare total victory sit back enjoy applause 've picked wrong topic think rigged quotations sustain legend lie deir yassin massacre n't think , making noise lot learn comes historical methodology 's true try learn people know , useless basic level , know big difference weighing evidence fairly merely finding quotations support preset opinions course , said times group anyone else , 'd think studied history israel must know many sources quotations axe grind , therefore must careful quote quite true , 's careful selecting quotes example , meir pa'il , cite , indeed general , scholar , war hero n't mean everything comes mouth gold fact \( lack experience shows \) , pa'il fanatic , leftist much oh bullshit fanatic bum prove blah anti israel blathering \( forget anti irgun blathering \) would considered something like treason non israel contexts course n't consider find quotation use attack israel would know consider \? read mind \? benny morris \( \) represents scholar old attacks irgun n't fooled 's old zionist ideological , attack \( \) likud government look closely section deir yassin book war independence , see indictment pure hot air best decades digging sort evidence unfortunately , book parades scholarly , forced put footnotes clearly see deir yassin account based nothing looked closely large number sources idea talking deir yassin massacre never took place propagandists tell , sabra shatila massacres get 's true accounts irgun arab propagandists like begin , example feeling people like blame jews massacres , even , never got feeling got rather opposite feelings people like , though make \? must sound spicy even jews like , reasons honesty \? perhaps would explain testimony members irgun , found handwriting irgun archives tel aviv , wounded arabs killed , group 80 prisoners massacred , lehi proposed everybody pre raid meeting exactly reasons propose testimony rejected favour begin 's \? please , n't confuse deir yassin massacre stuff facts scholarship stick begin 's version unless find something serious contradict funny carried unsupported evidence , propagandists , axes grind , end telling us stick account leader alleged killers obviously hopeless case , everyone plainly see vic brendan
cl056 cleveland freenet edu \( hamaza h salah \) subject israeli terrorism organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 26 reply cl056 cleveland freenet edu \( hamaza h salah \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) writes well i'm sure story nad seem biased disagree statement u media ruin israels reputation rediculous u media pro israeli media world lived europe realize incidences one described letter occured u media whole seem try ignore u subsidizing israels existance europeans \( least degree \) think might reason report clearly atrocities shame austria , daily reports inhuman acts commited israeli soldiers blessing received government makes holocaust guilt go away , look jews treating races got power unfortunate well said mr beyer \) cl056 cleveland freenet edu \( h z \) foo e foo
anwar cs cmu edu \( anwar mohammed \) subject remember names come election time keywords usa federal , government , international , non usa government nntp posting host gs135 sp cs cmu edu organization school computer science , carnegie mellon lines 39 article c5u4qi mz4 apollo hp com nelson p apollo hp com \( peter nelson \) writes btw , bosnia 's large moslem population , nations like turkey , saudi arabia , syria , egypt , others either money strong military forces spoken forcibly offered help bosnia \? obviously , really n't know spoken \( cf state christopher 's recent trip \) , provided millions aid , participated sarajevo would supply military aid , un would lift embargo arms sales turkish ambassador said thing two , 's see great places get hands dirty us always get stuck stuff \? see \( kuwait directly participated food sarajevo \) besides , 's case made us military involvement n't apply equally well , say , liberia , angola , \( appears khmer rouge 's new campaign \) cambodia non whites n't count \? hmm might say kuwaitis non white ooops , forgot , kuwaitis oil rich , loaded petro dollars , etc n't count peter
anwar cs cmu edu \( anwar mohammed \) subject remember names come election time keywords usa federal , government , international , non usa government nntp posting host gs135 sp cs cmu edu organization school computer science , carnegie mellon lines 15 said article c5u4qi mz4 apollo hp com nelson p apollo hp com \( peter nelson \) writes besides , 's case made us military involvement n't apply equally well , say , liberia , angola , \( appears khmer rouge 's new campaign \) cambodia non whites n't count \? hmm might say kuwaitis non white ooops , forgot , kuwaitis oil rich , loaded petro dollars , etc n't count let 's forget somalia , far white gets 's two row , care try \?
tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) subject final solution gaza \? nntp posting host orion oac uci edu organization university california , irvine lines 66 article 1483500354 igc apc org center policy research cpr igc apc org writes center policy research cpr subject final solution gaza \? israeli jews fete uprising warsaw ghetto , fete \? \? \? since word formally commonly refers positive events , misuse rather unsettling repress violent means uprising gaza ghetto attempt starve gazans certainly abhor israeli policies attitudes abusive towards palestinians gazans given , however , comparison reality warsaw ghetto gaza right gazan population resist occupation recognized international law person sense justice international law recognizes right occupying entity maintain order , especially face elements consciously attempting disrupt civil structure ironically , international law recognizes \( occupied occupier \) even though inherently conflict israel denies gazans two options compatible basic human rights international law , becoming israeli citizens full rights respecting right self determination , must concluded israeli jewish society consider gazans full human beings israel certainly cannot , , continue present policies towards gazan residents , however , third alternative creation implementation jewish system gazans palestinians protected citizens would find acceptable form regard islam 's policies towards minorities \? whether final solution sleeve \? race , \? israel 's anti palestinian gazan final solution arab world 's anti israel jewish final solution favor one \? neither \? urge slight human compassion whatever help gazans regain full human , civil political rights , entitled human beings since justifiable worry various parties israel arab palestinian final solution intentions exist , n't important israeli palestinian gazan rights secured \? elias davidsson iceland tim clock ph graduate student uci tel 714 , 8565361 department politics society fax 714 , 8568441 university california irvine home tel 714 , 8563446 irvine , ca 92717
ayr1 cunixa cc columbia edu \( amir rosenblatt \) subject legality jewish purchase nntp posting host cunixa cc columbia edu reply ayr1 cunixa cc columbia edu \( amir rosenblatt \) organization columbia university lines 96 article 1993apr19 bnr ca zbib bnr ca writes \( amir rosenblatt \) writes sam zbib writes one right mind would sell freedom dignity palestinians exception perhaps heard anti trust business world since debating legality commercial transaction , must use laws governing guidelines ethics transactions basic anti trust law says , purchase ibm stocks purpose investing , acquire large number shares intent controlling ibm make intentions clear clearly , jews purchased properties palastenians designs , buying dwelling real estate establishing bridgehead european jews palastenians sold properties jews old tradition arab hospitality multi ethnic multi religious society , accepting jews neighbours different , another religion plus paid fair market value , etc know victims international conspiracy \( i'm conspiracy theorist , one hard dismiss \) right , i'm going address point jewish national fund bought land , n't buy palestinians , , part , tenant farmers \( fallahin \) , living land owned wealthy arabs syria lebanon jnf offered premium deal , owners took advantage 's called commerce owners , however , made provisions worked , basically shafting selling land right blame , jews amir would sale land shafting \? sold jews \? fair assume fallahin would mistreated jews \? norm commerce \( read shafting \) arabs jews \? shafting part arab land owners without notifying tenant farmers responsible enough make provisions , rather leaving fate claim lebanese syrian landlords sold palestine \( true , even partially \) omits fact mandate treaty put lebanon syria french rule , palestine british , landlord would found foreigner palestine would motivated sell , regardless price point land sold legally , often prices actual value legal , good business sellers , though left palestinians worked land poor situation interesting though acknowledge palestinians shafted many israelis jews share opinion \? absolve purchaser ethical commitments n't written \? n't know others share opinion mine , i'm sure agree n't way see , fallahin caught circumstances beyond control , since n't land , n't say course , sake greater arab unity arabs angry land sold jews \( act illegal jordan \) , happened , business told , see answer response question whether intent behind purchase aimed controlling public assets \( land , infra structure etc \) imho palestinians grounds contest legality purchase , say world court sam opinions one else 's purpose buying land provide space jobs jewish immigrants case , matter purpose , sales legal , really n't see grounds amir
dzk cs brown edu \( danny keren \) subject u holocaust memorial museum costly organization brown university department computer science lines 47 dgannon techbook techbook com \( dan gannon \) writes gannon , n't tell readers newsgroups hail nazism bbs , post long articles claiming non whites inferior \? u holocaust memorial museum costly dangerous mistake museum entirely funded private donations , n't expect fact deter maynard btw , gannon 's ideological fathers also passion constructing museums collections , served educate public racial supremacy aryans one collection skeletons , lack around letter ss ss dr brandt , november 2 1942 trial major war criminals , p 520 dear brandt , know , reichsfuehrer ss directed ss prof dr supplied everything needed research work certain anthropological already reported reichsfuehrer ss 150 skeletons prisoners , rather jews , required , supplied kl auschwitz however , good doctor needed items complete research testimony magnus , ss guard concentration camp trial , edited anthony webb , p 89 recall particularly one mass execution 90 prisoners \( 60 men 30 women \) , jews , killed gassing took place , far remember , spring 1944 case corpses sent professor department anatomy strasbourg danny keren
arens isi edu \( yigal arens \) subject us consider yigal arens dangerous humanity organization usc information sciences institute lines 43 nntp posting host grl isi edu reply ehrlich bimacs bitnet 's message 19 apr 93 14 58 49 gmt article 4815 bimacs bitnet ehrlich bimacs bitnet \( gideon ehrlich \) writes article arens grl isi edu arens isi edu \( yigal arens \) writes los angeles times , tuesday , april 13 , 1993 p a1 problem us government files yigal arens similar persons violate federal local american law seemed belong local american law forum forum readers forum seemed interested contents files nice yigal tell us 1 american authorities consider yigal arens dangerous \? i'm aware us government considers dangerous case , nothing current case claim adl illegally obtained disseminated information gathered state federal agencies course standard interaction citizens refer things address phone number , vehicle registration license information , photographs , etc 2 adl interest person \? ask adl , want authoritative answer guess collected information anyone might engage political criticism israel believe agents israeli government , least agreement least information collected adl passed israeli officials cases used influence , attempt influence , people 's access jobs public forums matters brought court case unfolds , since california law entitles people compensation actions proven previous posting shows , california law entitles people compensation even absence specific consequences dissemination certain types private information yigal arens usc isi tv made ! arens isi edu
arens isi edu \( yigal arens \) subject ten questions israel organization usc information sciences institute lines 184 distribution world nntp posting host grl isi edu reply backon vms huji ac il 's message 20 apr 93 21 38 19 gmt article 1993apr20 664 vms huji ac il backon vms huji ac il writes article 1483500349 igc apc org , cpr igc apc org \( center policy research \) writes 4 true israeli prisons number individuals tried secret identities , date trial imprisonment state secrets \? apart mordechai vanunu trial behind closed doors , one espionage case \( nutty professor nes biological institute k g b mole \) tried camera would n't exactly call state secret trial simply tried behind closed doors hate disappoint united states tried number espionage cases camera issue trial behind closed doors , arrest , trial imprisonment complete secrecy attempted case vanunu failed happened , reason believe still goes read ma'ariv , february 18 \( possibly 28 \) , 1992 publication ban state israel never officially admitted many years prisons israeli citizens sentenced long prison terms without either fact arrest crimes accused ever made public baruch involved matter politely refused request , one way another look , subject delicate comment , implicitly admitting true mention specific case , even hint , might guilty making public something may legally published state israel never officially admitted many years prisons israeli citizens sentenced long prison terms without either fact arrest crimes accused ever made public precisely court ordered publication ban placed fact arrest , later imprisonment israel 1993 , citizens imprisoned without us , citizens country , knowing anything knowing anything fact one person another tried thrown prison , security offenses , complete secrecy distant past example days ya affair heard third man prison many years passed since , existed today longer found even south american countries , former communist countries appears still possible israel 1993 chair knesset committee law , constitution justice , mk david zucker , sent letter subject early week prime minister , minister justice , cabinet legal advisor ma'ariv obtained content letter past several years number israeli citizens imprisoned various periods security offenses cases legal publication ban imposed specifics crimes prisoners convicted , even mere fact imprisonment cases , legally convicted , prisoners spend term prison without public awareness either imprisonment prisoner , asserts mk zucker hand zucker agrees letter , absolutely question possible , cases imperative , publication ban imposed specifics security offenses course trials even cases court must weigh carefully deliberately circumstances trial held public however , one must ask whether imposition publication ban mere fact person 's arrest , name person sentenced prison , justified appropriate state israel principle public trial right public know consistent disappearance person public sight descent abyss prison zucker thus decided turn prime minister , minister justice cabinet legal advisor request consider question state israel strong enough withstand cost incurred abiding principle public punishment state israel cannot allowed prisoners whose detention cause kept secret , wrote zucker legal counsel civil rights union , attorney mordechai said , , civil rights union , know cases security prisoners , citizens israel , imprisoned , whose imprisonment cannot made public situation , actually exists , definitely unhealthy like censorship unhealthy matter union aware , says , cases notification suspect 's arrest family members lawyers speaking several days know also cases allowed meet attorney sometimes whole first month arrest done great secrecy suspect , family , lawyer even journalist challenge publication ban court cases family members interested publicity journalist knows nothing arrest , almost everyone happy attorney yossi , official bar , claims given laws exist israel today , situation arrest person security offenses kept secret definitely possible nothing easier court orders publication ban , 's someone committed security offenses spend long years prison without us knowing anything find situation acceptable \? attorney definitely live democratic country , state affairs well aware publication damaging standpoint security total non publication , silence , unacceptable consider trial mordechai vanunu least case know charged aggravated espionage sentenced 18 years prison trial held behind closed doors , nobody knew details except authorized somehow possible understand , though accept , reasons , , noted , least aware imprisonment matter actually serious \? ca n't trust discretion court \? attorney judges choice trust presentations made judges tools investigate gives government enormous power , power misuse really security issue \? attorney man legal system , security expert democracy stands opposition security believe possible publicize matter arrest charges without entering detail already seen laws concerning publication bans misused , case rachel heller murder suspect murder held many months without matter made public attorney , hand , believes state security legitimate reason prohibiting publication suspect 's arrest , convicted criminal 's imprisonment healthy situation \? definitely aware fact mere publication may harmful state security different opinion expressed attorney uri , former advisor arab affairs prime ministers levi golda meir clearly , speaking isolated special cases situations contrast principle judicial proceeding must held public doubt contradicts principle freedom expression definitely also principle individual freedom also harmed prohibition publication nevertheless , adds , legislator allowed possibility ban , accommodate special cases damage possible consequence publication greater may follow principles 've mentioned authority decide matters publication rest prime minister security services , court , may rest assured authorize publication ban convinced need beyond shadow doubt nevertheless , attorney agrees rule , clearly phenomenon undesirable extreme step must taken extreme circumstances yigal arens usc isi tv made ! arens isi edu
goykhman apollo hp com \( red herring \) subject unconventional peace proposal nntp posting host dzoo ch apollo hp com organization hewlett packard company , chelmsford , lines 33 article 1483500348 igc apc org center policy research cpr igc apc org writes center policy research cpr subject unconventional peace proposal unconventional proposal peace middle east elias davidsson stated assumptions , state proposal 1 fund established would disburse grants child born couple one partner israeli jew palestinian arab 5 emergence considerable number 'mixed' marriages israel palestine , would relatives 'both sides' divide , would make conflict lose ethnical unsoluble core strengthen emergence truly civil society existence strong 'mixed' stock people would also help integration israeli society sounds like racial theory hitler outlined mein kampf elias davidsson post box 1760 121 reykjavik , iceland disclaimer opinions expressed mine , employer 's
nstramer supergas dazixco ingr com \( naftaly stramer \) subject bb confessions nntp posting host supergas reply nstramer dazixco ingr com organization intergraph electronics lines 25 article 1993apr18 thunder mcrcim mcgill edu , ahmeda mcrcim mcgill edu \( ahmed abu abed \) writes irony jewish population problem electing leader confessed extra affair first aa american people n't problem \( clinton \) actually think make difference long qualifications become leaders btw political view hope \( arab hope \) binyamin netanyahu prime minister israel naftaly naftaly stramer intergraph electronics internet nstramer dazixco ingr com 6101 lookout road , suite voice \( 303 \) 581 2370 fax \( 303 \) 581 9972 boulder , co 80301 quality everybody 's job , 's everybody 's job watch
dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) subject public service translation 2 keywords effective greek armenian postings organization p center regional studies lines 36 article hydra gatech edu gt1091a prism gatech edu \( gt1091a gt1091a kaan , timucin \) wrote kaan hell guy david davidian think talks much alter ego ! kaan yo , david would better shut f k \? \? , its' ok ! going \? come get \? kaan n't like attitute full lies shit united states refer freedom speech n't like write either prove wrong , shut , simply fade away ! kaan n't hear saying mess ! ! ask \? going \? going submit bodily harm \? going kill \? going torture \? kaan see ya hell wrong ! kaan timucin translate lines turkish english embarrassing turkish , n't written first place ! n't kill messenger ! david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org explain turkish troops p center regional studies armenian border , ca n't p box 382761 even explain 1915 \? cambridge , 02238 turkish mp , march 1992
pgf5 cunixa cc columbia edu \( peter garfiel freeman \) subject hamas methods murder nntp posting host cunixa cc columbia edu organization columbia university lines 9 anyone gets new york times , edit page transcript vhs hams describing methods torture execution post later
zbib bnr ca \( sam zbib \) subject legality jewish purchase \( israeli expansion lust \) nntp posting host reply zbib bnr ca organization bell northern research lines 134 adam shostack writes sam zbib writes i'm surprised n't consider acquisition land jews arabs , purpose establishing exclusive state , hostile action leading war purpose establishing state , exclusive state state exclusive , would 400 000 arab citizens could please tell ethnic composition israel right formed , consider purchase land hostile action someone wants buy land , someone else willing sell , mutually agreeable price , commerce hostile action leading war one right mind would sell freedom dignity palestinians exception perhaps heard anti trust business world since debating legality commercial transaction , must use laws governing guidelines ethics transactions basic anti trust law says , purchase ibm stocks purpose investing , acquire large number shares intent controlling ibm make intentions clear clearly , jews purchased properties palastenians designs , buying dwelling real estate establishing bridgehead european jews palastenians sold properties jews old tradition arab hospitality multi ethnic multi religious society , accepting jews neighbours different , another religion plus paid fair market value , etc know victims international conspiracy \( i'm conspiracy theorist , one hard dismiss \) whether jews wanted live peace , maybe however wanted still want exclusively jewish state , jews control jews masters land living peace meaningless unless means living someone else , equal native arab , leave many options oh , mean like jews arabs citizens \? arabs stayed citizens , much right choose vote jews adam , devil details n't want get tangent says ok return 100 leave rest 100 nice number 10 , 100 besides , integer square root palestinians stayed , actually stayed despite happened , number somewhat tolerated defenseless ineffective minority wrong , 'd israel recall palestinian refugees \( 're talking millions \) , civilians huh \? people left , voluntarily reason israel let actually believe \? experience tells every palestinian knew still keeps key home , palestine besides often refer exodus escape hell \( speak \) know none agrees sample opinions \? know n't care , israel gave citizenship remaining arabs maintain democratic facade \( keep western aid flowing \) israel got western aid 1948 , 1949 50 still granted citizenship arabs remained granting citizenship facade \? n't get wrong beleive israel democratic within constraints one dominant ethnic group \( jews \) israel probably options 1948 ethnic cleansing serbian style , deserve wrath international community , make best win condition show world good israel towards arabs personaly , 've never heard anything arab community isreal except 're yes , 're community history roots , dead tell something , sam makes land arab \? shall explain , contract man land control n't ottomans ruled 400 years , left barely trace concept land identity somewhat foreign mobile pragmatic west partly concept sol , native soil know jews previous history region , none recent memory i'm talking everyday life archeology try , tell n't , fail establish also , jews history israel thousand years lots jews slaughtered israel thriving community gaza city roughly 1200 1500 jews majority jerusalem 1870 onwards make land jewish \? stand corrected meant jewish culture predominant palestine recent history problem jerusalem jewish character predominantly jewish make rest palestine \? adam shostack adam das harvard edu sam zbib bell northern research bitnet internet zbib bnr ca voice \( 613 \) 763 fax \( 613 \) 763 2626 surface mail stop 162 , p box 3511 , station c , ottawa , canada , k1y 4h7 opinions one else 's
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject armenian admission crime turkish genocide reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 34 source men like leonard ramsden hartill bobbs merrill company , indianapolis \( 1926 \) \( 305 pages \) \( memoirs armenian officer participated genocide 2 5 million muslim people \) p 19 \( first paragraph \) tartar section town longer existed , except pile ruins destroyed inhabitants slaughtered fate befell tartar section p 130 \( third paragraph \) city scene confusion terror early days war , russian troops invaded turkey , large numbers turkish population abandoned homes fled russian advance p 181 \( first paragraph \) tartar villages ruins serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject armenian slaughter 600 , 000 kurdish people 1915 reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 21 source hassan arfa , kurds , \( london , 1968 \) , pp 25 26 russian armies invaded turkey disaster 1914 , columns preceded battalions irregular armenian volunteers , caucasus turkey one commanded certain , blood thirsty armenian volunteers committed kinds excesses , six hundred thousand kurds killed 1915 1916 eastern vilayets turkey serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject eyes gouged fascist armenians armenian barbarism reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 31 atrocity reports azerbaijan azeri officials returned seen town nine miles away brought back three dead children , backs heads blown children scalped , ' said assad , aide karabagh 's azeri governor azeri television showed pictures one truckload bodies brought azeri town agdam , faces apparently scratched knives eyes gouged brian killen \( reuters \) washington times , 3 3 92 killings nagorno karabagh , journalists area reported seeing dozens corpses , including civilians , azerbaijani officials said armenians began shooting sought recover bodies fred hiatt washington post , 3 3 92 serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject armenians fascist historical armenian fascism reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 47 armenians deeply anti semitic well may 10 , 1936 edition 'hairenik vice mayor , rumania quoted saying armenians helped us become slaves jewish elements country another edition , author named captain george haig writes type jew imported palestine anything proud loose morals , vices unknown arabs prior declaration , top communist activities cause arab criticism 1 uzun exposed , armenians fascist pearl harbor , dashnak daily \( confused tzeghagrons 'hairenik \) expressed pro nazi sentiments came adolf hitler , struggles spoke racial heart strings german , opened fountain national genius , spirit period since world war berlin conducted realistic , well organized , planned policy , since hitler 's assumption power whatever others may think concerning fascism system government , proved two states , germany italy 2 1 captain george haig , 'the case palestine , ' hairenik weekly , friday , september 25 , 1936 2 'hairenik , ' official organ , sept 17 , 1936 quoted john roy carlson , 'the armenian displaced \( see 1 \) , p 21 serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) subject go hezbollah ! nntp posting host orion oac uci edu organization university california , irvine lines 159 article 1993apr16 130037 18830 ncsu edu , hernlem chess ncsu edu \( brad hernlem \) writes article 2bce0918 6105 news service uci edu , tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) writes suggesting , guerillas use population cover , israel totally back \? easiest way get away attacking another use innocent shield hope respects innocent lives \? tell tim , guerillas wrong \? assuming using civilians cover , assuming \? also come , brad going get anywhere \( \) discussion , n't help bring elements never addressed , commented way made comment right wrong , civilians used cover , placed israelis guerillas , injured parties continue fight purpose army 's use military uniforms set members apart civilians civilians thought side combatants , think meaning behind , intention effect army purposely uniforms goes way look like \? judging benefit receive cover important harm come civilians comment israeli experience saying guerillas responsibility putting civilians middle fight putting uniforms living apart civilians \( barracks , etc \) , guerillas would significantly lower risk civilians guerillas n't putting greater risk \? absolutely , ask set apart \( wearing uniforms \) ready made cover us \( civilians \) \? makes sense point view , cover used , guerillas accept responsibility subsequent harm civilians buffer zone prevent attacks israel , working \? neccessary israeli guns pound lebanese villages \? kill try infiltrate buffer zone \? see , shelling villages called retaliation getting back getting even n't make sense shell villages least shows reckless disregard israeli government lives civilians agree always thought israel 's bombing bombing policy stupid , , inhumane ineffective , reason israel passive wait attackers chose act every reason believe taking fight enemy stop attacks said previously , israel spent several decades sitting passively side border acting stop attacks attackers entered israeli territory n't work well host arab state little nothing try stop attacks side border israel number attacks considerably higher , physical psychological impact civilians caught path \? whole bit attacks israel neighboring arab states start \? also hope happen , occur arab states show prepared take responsibility duty stop guerilla attacks israel soil prove \( provide guaratees \) , way israel going accept word past attitude tolerance towards anti israel guerillas residence israel willing accept word others , imho , business wasting others' time coming peace talks another selectively applied statement reason drawn impasse palestinians israelis neither side willing accept word criteria everyone stay away negotiations precisely palestinians \( recent pisga proposal interim period negotiations leading full autonomy \) demanding conditions essentially define autonomy already trust israel follow entire process allow palestinians reach full autonomy understand accept viewpoint palestinians \? , israel 's view arabs palestinians different \? trust arab words \? since n't , reluctant give tangible assets \( land , control areas \) exchange words reason , also concerned sorts guarantees arabs follow part agreement reached n't see statement made ways \? lebanon interested peace accept word israel attacks cause war disarming hizbollah remove cause continued occupancy absolutely , arabs palestinians asking first israelis word relation agreement \? , demanded first land issue land , one party finally gets hold land , party totally irrelevent possession land , words absolutely power whether israel chooses keeps word get land back afterall , israel already staged two parts withdrawal areas occupied lebanon slg tim , ignoring fact palestinians lebanon disarmed hezbollah remains independent militia hezbollah attack israel except times idf burned sheikh mosavi , wife , young son major armaments \( allowing people wage civil wars \) removed , weapons needed cross border attacks still remain extent rocket attacks still continue , commando raids require easily concealed weapons refined disregard human life \( others \) attacks also continue course , israel would withdraw lebanon stop assassinating people shelling villages would n't make lebanese mad bat guano situation call existed 1970s attacks commonplace furthermore , hezbollah subsequently disarmed , would possible way groups effectively disarmed unless state authoritarian syria 's way lebanon take upon constantly patrol entire border israel , essentially mirroring israel 's border side prove isreal committed protecting israel attack lebanese territory syria leaves say lebanon able retain control \? syria stays thay may even dangerous israel tim , last time recall trouble syrian border \? lately , eh \? 's said , ok \? , n't mean syria take lebanon \? n't think israel lebanon would like sides need receive something tangible arabs palestinians looking land demanding receive prior giving anything israel israel two problems 1 \) gives real land exposing changed situation \( change n't help israel 's position \) , 2 \) gives land needs receive something return compensate increased risks tim
tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) subject go hezbollah ! nntp posting host orion oac uci edu organization university california , irvine lines 25 article apr16 yuma acns colostate edu bh437292 lance colostate edu writes article 2bce0918 6105 news service uci edu , tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) writes article apr15 175334 72079 yuma acns colostate edu bh437292 lance colostate edu writes view entire matter far serenely one sided selectively naive oooh hurts suffer naive one sided views mine please skip articles future oh wise tim , good day basil point throwing one sided viewpoints \( means ignoring side 's perspective experience legitimacy \) assuming side possesses faults bears negative impacts particular event \? n't former \? n't latter naive \? feel opinion wrong please tell strategic withdrawal cover snide remark seems favored tactic net n't accomplish anything
nstramer supergas dazixco ingr com \( naftaly stramer \) subject hamas way death nntp posting host supergas reply nstramer dazixco ingr com organization intergraph electronics lines 104 hamas way death \( following transcript recruitment training videotape made last summer battalions , military arm hamas , islamic palestinian group hamas figures significantly middle east equation december , israel deported 400 palestinians lebanon response hamas 's kidnapping execution israeli soldier longer version appears may issue harper 's magazine , obtained translated tape \) name al hassan ali live refugee camp gaza strip born 1964 finished high school , attended gaza polytechnic later , went work islamic university gaza clerk i'm married two daughters battalions group palestine explicitly dedicated jihad holy war primary concern palestinians collaborate enemy many young men women fallen prey cunning traps laid israeli security services since enemies trying nation , cooperation clearly terrible crime important objective must put end plague collaboration , abduct collaborators , intimidate interrogate order uncover collaborators expose methods enemy uses lure palestinians collaboration first place addition , naturally , confront problem collaborators executing n't execute every collaborator , 70 percent innocent victims , black mailed decision whether execute collaborator based seriousness crimes , like many collaborators , recruited agent israeli border guard imperative executed 's dangerous israeli soldier , treat like israeli soldier 's another group collaborators perform even role ones help enemy trap young men women blackmail schemes force become collaborators regard process palestinians collaboration single person greater crime killing demonstrator someone guilty causing repeated cases , religious duty execute third group collaborators responsible distribution work direct orders security services distribute drugs widely possible victims become addicted soon find unbearable quit impossible afford collaborate order get drugs dealers must also executed battalions , developed careful method uncovering collaborators , ca n't afford abduct innocent person , seize person reputation forever abduct interrogate collaborator evidence guilt established never interrogation collaborator found guilty beyond doubt , executed many cases , n't make evidence collaborators public , everyone knows 're guilty public n't aware certain individual collaborator , accuse , people bound ask evidence many people proclaim innocence , must proof executed proof usually obtained form confession first , every collaborator denies crimes start showing collaborator testimony tell still chance serve people , even last moment life , confessing giving us information need say know repentance sincere victim kind talk convincing confess others hold cases , apply pressure , psychological physical confess well one collaborator ever executed without interrogation case , collaborator seen working border guard since intifada , confessed involvement friend , disclosed information us addition , three members network collaborators told us caused much evidence , need interrogate careful avoid wrongful executions every case , principal accused interrogated crimes weeks ago , sat list collaborators decide whether could executed without interrogation although hundreds names , still , fear god hell , could mark men , except one mentioned , execution execute collaborator public , use gun abduct interrogate collaborator , ca n't shoot might give away locations 's collaborators strangled sometimes ask collaborator , think \? execute \? one collaborator told us , strangle hated sight blood naftaly stramer intergraph electronics internet nstramer dazixco ingr com 6101 lookout road , suite voice \( 303 \) 581 2370 fax \( 303 \) 581 9972 boulder , co 80301 quality everybody 's job , 's everybody 's job watch
center policy research cpr igc apc org subject israeli press madness nf id n cdp 000 nf cdp uucp ! cpr apr 16 16 49 00 1993 lines 130 center policy research cpr subject israeli press madness written 4 34 pm apr 16 , 1993 cpr igc apc org igc mideast forum israeli press madness israeli press paper tel aviv \( tel aviv 's time \) friday local tel aviv 's paper , affiliated date 19 february 1993 journalist guy ehrlich subject interview soldiers served \( cherry \) units , disguise arabs operate within occupied territories excerpts article lot written units disguise arabs , things good bad , falsehoods important problem units hardly dealt everyone serves cherry , time goes one way another insane man said , called danny \( full name known editors \) served cherry discharge army works delivery boy pal , called dudu also serving cherry , depart round world tour look different average israeli youngsters freshly discharged service souls , one notice something completely different easy come happened think fellows cherry wound n't easy either yet began talk , nearly impossible make stop talking following article contain horror stories recounted appalling openness \( \) short time ago command veteran team , fellows applied release cherry called soldiers h command soldier talked non stop , common phenomenon cherry sent psychiatrist talk others feel quite insane \? fridays , come home , parents know cannot talked go beach , surf little , calm return keys father 's car must ready advance , go dare talk , whenever n't want talk , grab chair smash instantly know nerve smashing chairs time running away home , car beach become normal \( \) \( \) another friday eating lunch prepared mother sorts took risk sitting next talking told mother event still fresh mind told shot arab , exactly wound looked like went inspect began laugh hysterically wanted cry , dared laugh straight face instead ! told pal made two arabs preparing molotov shot , hitting beautifully , exactly deserved one bullet set molotov cocktail fire , effect arab burning , beautifully delighted see pal fired three bullets , two arab molotov cocktail , third chum hit straight ass felt 'd pulled something next told mother another pal mine split open guts belly another arab us ran toward spot take look reached spot first arab , blood forth body , spits yelled up' dared talk back hebrew ! laughed straight face usually laughing stare something right eyes told 'all right , wait left order take look another wounded arab asked soldier arab could saved , bleeding artery could stopped help stone something else like keep telling mother , details , keeps laughing straight face got angry , felt becoming mad stopped eating , seized plate still , threw head stopped laughing first n't know say \( \) must tell still madness falls upon us frequently went friend practice shooting field appeared right middle field friend shot noticed four deer standing high hill us friend aimed one shot enjoyed sight falling rock shot two deer went take look climbed rocks saw young deer , badly wounded bullet , still trying milk already dead mother carefully inspected two paths , covered blood chunks torn flesh two deer hit delighted sight good ! decided kill young deer , spare suffering approached , took revolver shot head several times short distance shoot straight head actually see bullets sinking fifth bullet made brains fall outside onto ground , effect lots blood straight us made us feel cured madness standing soaked blood , felt like beasts prey could n't explain happened us almost tears walking hill , felt whole day badly \( \) always go back places carried assignments see see guy disabled , may rest life , feel got power feel sorts \( \) danny dudu contemplate least moment studying acting dudu willing work security linked occupation danny feels exact opposite n't take advantage skills well \? n't earn 3 000 chopped head would deliver mercenary south africa \? kind job suits perfectly human emotions get reasonable salary problem board plane bosnia order fight israel shahak
center policy research cpr igc apc org subject israeli press nazi methods nf id n cdp 000 3194 nf cdp uucp ! cpr apr 16 16 50 00 1993 lines 66 center policy research cpr subject israeli press nazi methods written 4 38 pm apr 16 , 1993 cpr igc apc org igc mideast forum israeli press nazi methods israeli press newspaper ha'aretz date 14 author gideon levi subject nazi methods gaza title neighborhood hope , among rubble \( excerpts \) stared long sadly worked entire life order built house left tv could transmit full sadness face say teach children hate , expect happen child sees \? wraps lengthy silence , face weeping stood field rubble home term absolute meaning nothing left accumulated entire life , rubble house shreds belongings khan demolished homes last thursday search wanted people idf forces employed new method , fired bombed shot missiles placed explosives already three times past weeks gone see destruction time horrifying scenes time hit largest number houses , 17 according idf estimate , ten completely demolished method also become brutal three weeks ago , neighborhood gaza , residents still told remove valuables homes time army skipped part three weeks ago men , inhabitants demolished homes , supplied water one apple 12 hours stand time water three weeks ago even allowed go toilet time soldier gold piss shit pants thus , last thursday , 45 men stood 12 hours , hands bound behind backs , eyes blindfolded , without food , wet pants legs terrible feeling humiliation hearts , listening sounds explosions destroying homes , one \( \) dr said al brother saudi arabia , among ruins ten days ago arrived family visit , mainly order celebrate father brothers thursday like everyone else 12 hours , later went everyone view tried explain visitor physician , got shove like rest also pants , standing hands bound eyes blindfolded entire day al studied medicine cairo university , ten years treating wealthy medina wife four children remained documents lost know return humanity , stated physician saudi arabia
center policy research cpr igc apc org subject israeli press torture nf id n cdp 000 nf cdp uucp ! cpr apr 16 16 50 00 1993 lines 78 center policy research cpr subject israeli press torture written 4 41 pm apr 16 , 1993 cpr igc apc org igc mideast forum israeli press torture israeli press newspaper ma'ariv date 18 december 1992 author avi raz subject torture title article moderate physical pressure several times course long hours interrogation room tulkarm prison , says humiliated , beaten tortured , omar jaber heard interrogator , shabak agent , phone wife moments , omar said , felt like , right finished talking , would beat say , 'you listened conversation enjoyed understood really human late october 1992 , 38 days detention tulkarm prison , omar jaber released without charges among jews , among arabs , good people bad people , said release , , tulkarm , interrogations rooms , cannot find even one person say human although left detention installation tulkarm bruised humiliated \( sat home ten days hands shook nerves \) , one may consider omar jaber lucky got , healthy , entire , even ultimately returned normal functioning , small solar heater plant owns contrast , hassan al , example , released seven weeks ago detention tulkarm 33 days shabak wing , cut surroundings n't speak react mustafa , aged 23 , arrested early august brought tulkarm detention installation , left one day later dead recently received especially large number testimonies concerning cruel tortures employed tulkarm detention installation shabak interrogators , noted dr niv gordon , director association israel palestinian physicians human rights \( \) right complain shabak saber makhlouf , 20 year old student fact , extremely fearful describing manner interrogated tulkarm prison , case publication paper would return detention lead renewed mistreatment \( follow description tortures \) omar , tall man , silent want talk , finally said , quietly time later , ashamed , spoke sometimes beats beats 'll kiss hand , hand even hands another interrogator , another , calls room , last interrogator says kissing hand , later want , kiss ass things take place israeli army detention installation , located within military government compound tulkarm \( west bank \) shabak interrogation wing separate kingdom early march idf allowed representatives , israeli information center human rights territories , visit tulkarm prison , denied access interrogation wing interrogation wing shabak property , solely shabak responsibility interrogations performed , said sharon , commander installation , according internal report written member , yuval , following visit major david , governing commander prison system central command , quoted report ethical problem one enter interrogation wing shahak
howard frederick igc apc org subject turkish government agents usenet nf id r 1993apr15 urartu sd cdp 000 1042 nf cdp uucp ! apr 16 14 31 00 1993 lines 20 n't know anything particular case , governments known follow events usenet example square chinese government began monitoring cyberspace former director , aware many incidents local , state , national international authorities monitoring usenet conferences institute global communications 's big deal \? n't advocate illegal acts medium case concerned monitored , use software \( available igc 's micro conference \) know fact human rights activists balkan mideast area use encryption software send reports international organizations message decoded however large computers consuming much cpu time , probably turkish government n't access howard frederick , university california , irvine department politics society
center policy research cpr igc apc org subject israeli press short notes nf id n cdp 000 1466 nf cdp uucp ! cpr apr 16 16 51 00 1993 lines 39 center policy research cpr subject israeli press short notes written 4 43 pm apr 16 , 1993 cpr igc apc org igc mideast forum israeli press short notes israeli press hadashot , 14 march 1993 israeli police department announced evening friday , march 12 calling upon jewish israeli citizens gun permits carry times contribute security surroundings ha'aretz , 15 march 1993 yehoshua matza \( likud \) , chair knesset interior committee , stated intends demand police department make clear public anyone wounds kills non jewish terrorists put trial ha'aretz , 16 today private security firm units idf southern command begin installation four magnetic gates gaza strip , additional stage upgrading security measures strip gates aid searching non jewish gaza residents leave work israel used reveal presence knives , axes , weapons sharp objects addition gates , operated private civilian company , large quantities magnetic card reading devices brought inspection points , facilitate reading magnetic cards non jewish workers must carry
jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) subject go hezbollah ! organization department redundancy department lines 39 article apr15 175334 72079 yuma acns colostate edu bh437292 lance colostate edu writes people village regular inhabitants go daily business , work fields , small shops , others older men go shop drink coffee hard imagine \? \? \? \? quickly followed young men , usually aged 17 30 years members lebanese resistance even inhabitants village know , secretive , people often suspect standard method claiming non status , even commanders combat young men supported financially iran time sneak arms ammunitions occupied zone set booby traps israeli patrols every time israeli soldier killed injured traps , israel retalliates indiscriminately bombing villages choosing often killing innocent civilians innocent civilians \? \? \? like ones set booby traps engaged shoot outs soldiers attack grenades axes \? accustomed israeli tactics , figure rest world getting used arab tactics claiming innocence even guilty vile murderers among keep long enough backfire good jake livni jake bony1 bony com ten years , george bush american occupied new york replaced jimmy carter opinions employer opinions standard failed president
jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) subject basil , opinions \? \( water brain \) organization department redundancy department lines 15 article early bird think com shaig think com \( shai guday \) writes litani river flows west southwestern direction indeed run buffer zone hasbani flow jordan contrary imaginative poster might write , increase river proportional climatic changes go bring \? 're going say israel stealing rain , jake livni jake bony1 bony com ten years , george bush american occupied new york replaced jimmy carter opinions employer opinions standard failed president
jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) subject israeli expansion lust organization department redundancy department lines 13 article 1993apr14 bnr ca zbib bnr ca writes jake livni writes sam zbib writes deleted sam zbib 's posting confused warrant reasoned response 're getting used , jake livni jake bony1 bony com ten years , george bush american occupied new york replaced jimmy carter opinions employer opinions standard failed president
bc744 cleveland freenet edu \( mark ira kaufman \) subject israel 's expansion ii organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 9 nntp posting host thor ins cwru edu comparison palestinian situation holocaust insulting completely false person making rude false comparison either ignorant holocaust , also ignorant situation mideast , anti semite compare complicated political situation genocide 6 , 000 , 000 jews racist
bc744 cleveland freenet edu \( mark ira kaufman \) subject israeli terrorism organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 8 nntp posting host thor ins cwru edu someone reads israeli every day , state absolute certainty , anybody relies western media get picture happening israel getting accurate picture tremendous bias stories get reported stories never get mentioned create completely false picture mideast
bc744 cleveland freenet edu \( mark ira kaufman \) subject israeli terrorism organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 7 nntp posting host thor ins cwru edu many readers know anything jews living arab countries \? many know jews still live countries \? many know circumstances arabic jews leaving homelands \? curious
bc744 cleveland freenet edu \( mark ira kaufman \) subject final solution gaza \? organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 227 nntp posting host thor ins cwru edu center policy research writes subject final solution gaza \? final solution gaza ghetto \? israeli jews fete uprising warsaw ghetto , repress violent means uprising gaza ghetto attempt starve gazans comparison warsaw ghetto uprising insulting , racist beyond belief attempts quiet violence gaza strip efforts murder mayhem gaza strip violence came violence arbitrary racial move like nazi treatment jews jews committed acts violence murder residents gaza find ignore acts murder nothing anti israel bigotry gaza strip , tiny area land highest population density world , cut world weeks israeli occupier decided punish whole population gaza , 700 000 people , denying right leave strip seek work israel punishment , protection repeated attacks residents gaza self omit references israel take action deaths innocent israeli civilians enter equation , racist part polish non jews risked lives save jews ghetto , israeli jew known risked life help gazan resistance help given gazans israeli jews , dozens people , humanitarian assistance right gazan population resist occupation recognized international law person sense justice population denied basic human rights entitled rise right israel protect citizens murderers also recognized international law israeli civilians getting stabbed death daily basis wave murder matter , posturing basic human rights claim matter much nothing anti israel charade known , israeli regime considering gazans unworthy israeli citizenship equal rights israel , although considered worthy dirty work israeli hotels , shops fields know residents gaza applied israeli citizenship denied \? heard denials taking place document , stupid propaganda \? truth gazan residents applied citizenship , hamas would murder collaborators many gazans born towns villages located israel may live , areas reserved master race dare use disgusting phrase easy attack people , omit facts fly face pure racism perhaps judging people racists believe jews must bigoted makeup \? 's another little fly ointment , 'master race , ' avoid two months ago plane 86 bosnian muslims left bosnia seek asylum middle east four arab nations refused grant asylum arabs agreed take responsibility , allowed israel yes , israel plane landed , israeli arabs previously agreed take care refused involved rescue project , felt would make israel look good important avoid good pr israel take care fellow muslims israel moved kibbutz , safe secure truth time time islamic world turned back muslims need israel even case 400 , lebanon willing let called arab brothers freeze death rather give sanctuary lebanon nearly twice many palestinians murdered palestinians israel hundreds thousands palestinians deported kuwait , palestinian truth concern welfare palestinians nothing excuse attack israel part ignorant effort confine concern welfare palestinians attacking israel truth greater reasons israel plight palestinians disregard jordan kuwait saudi arabia oil rich nations nothing people , use plight poor people vehicle hatred jews , hatred israel anti semitism anti zionism pro palestinian anyone insists really give two welfare nazi regime accorded residents warsaw ghetto right self administration selected jews pacify occupied population preventing form resistance jewish collaborators killed israel also wishes rule gaza arab collaborators pathetic analogy absent relevant fact racism cannot disguised jews never declared war polish people jews never attacked poles knives , used ghetto ground attacks take something like warsaw ghetto \( creation even bother discuss ! \) uprising followed degrade dead , show intelligent debate difficult situation beyond intellectual clearly never even read single word covenant islamic resistance movement arguably single anti semitic genocidal document since mein kampf , yet totally disregarded rantings racism evident avoid documentation considered , might actually deal mideast problems balanced manner , rather anti semitic manner israel denies gazans two options compatible basic human rights international law , becoming israeli citizens full rights respecting right self determination , must concluded israeli jewish society consider gazans full human beings gaza obtained \? forget israel habit grabbing land hell , taken gaza war start \? know land israel captures wars , wars nations always started , n't israel , subject completely different set international laws \? since continuously refer international law , would please say specific international laws israel violating \? attitude consistent attitude nazis towards jews cite 6 , 000 , 000 reasons current policies israeli government cutting gaza consistent wish publicly expressed prime yitzhak rabin sink sea' quote \? never heard rabin assert wished thing since general liar , 'll provide entire quote , source , effort regarded another one fabrications one led ask oneself whether israeli leaders entertain still sinister goals towards gazans \? whether final solution sleeve \? led ask loaded , racist , intellectually dishonest question inability come terms turned racist highest order urge slight human compassion whatever help gazans regain full human , civil political rights , entitled human beings feel compassion jews iran , iraq , yemen , saudi arabia , syria \? endured past decades \? , plight palestinians kuwait \? treatment bosnian muslims \? think residents gaza subjected muslims bosnia enduring \? indifferent death suffering people \? care folk exterminated \? care israel given people safe \? could due fact israel killing \? people gaza exterminated n't killed n't raped n't n't driven lands kept receiving food supplies bosnians country provided sanctuary bosnian muslims nation devoted life attacking , guise compassion rantings burden intellectual honesty ought take deep breath ask real motives flatter belief truth compassion drives case , clear hate beats love every time maybe burdened kind guilt born jew obvious hatred judaism dumped jews else would suggest racist idea like breeding jews existence \? maybe fits anti semitism result cut people extended period whatever case may , clear hard appear realize ca n't care people hate might actually begin good ,
dzk cs brown edu \( danny keren \) subject hamza salah , humanist organization brown university department computer science lines 13 cl056 cleveland freenet edu \( hamaza h salah \) writes well said mr beyer \) great humanist speaks one read mr salah 's posters , jews sons pigs monkeys , keeps promising final battle muslims jews \( trees cry muslims come kill jews hiding behind \) , makes jokes jews dying heart attacks etc , realize objective stance matters involved danny keren
bc744 cleveland freenet edu \( mark ira kaufman \) subject hamza salah , humanist organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 8 nntp posting host thor ins cwru edu mr salah , racist \? feel hatred towards , jews \? family racists \? learn racism home \? self made bigot \? one become racist \? wonder think racism accomplish impression racism help bring peace mid east \? would like know thoughts
cl056 cleveland freenet edu \( hamaza h salah \) subject israeli terrorism reply cl056 cleveland freenet edu \( hamaza h salah \) organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 30 nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu previous article , yfn ysu edu \( \) says previous article , bc744 cleveland freenet edu \( mark ira kaufman \) says many readers know anything jews living arab countries \? many know jews still live countries \? many know circumstances arabic jews leaving homelands \? curious thought jews live arab countries , n't hey move palestine \? happy jews move ! ! would tell arab country jews migrating palestine \? last arab country syria migrated due jewish state economical dilemma ! cl056 cleveland freenet edu \( h z \) foo e foo
hm cs brown edu \( harry mamaysky \) subject deir yassin reply aurag ere umontreal ca 's message fri , 23 apr 1993 18 48 15 gmt organization dept computer science , brown university lines 44 article ere umontreal ca aurag ere umontreal ca \( aurag hassan \) writes trying say massacres deir yassin sabra shatila \? let tell good jokes thing like jewish killing wwii palestinians davidians years fact one killed war time place people die one gets killed maybe also n't die vietnam war killed american napalm 's maybe jews liked gas chambers one forced get may thought like cocaine \? think \? n't stupid say \? well stupid said next time want lie intelligently sincerely hassan arab civilians die dir yassin massacre first , village housed many armed troops secondly , irgun stern fighters absolutely intentions killing civilians village attacked military significance fact , warning given occupants village leave attack begin rational standards , dir yassin massacre killing unintentional village housed arab snipers arab troops thus attacked military significance attacked intentions killing civilians even compare dir yassin , 120 arabs died , holocaust absurd irgun want kill civilians village almost 1000 inhabitants , survived harry
hm cs brown edu \( harry mamaysky \) subject dir yassin reply aurag ere umontreal ca 's message fri , 23 apr 1993 18 48 15 gmt organization dept computer science , brown university lines 34 myths facts , leonard j davis , near east research inc , 1989 pp 108 109 unlike plo 's almost exclusive focus civilian targets , 100 troups irgun stern group struck deir yassin april 10 , 1948 , targeted village military importance deir yassin road jerusalem , arabs blockaded , housed iraqi troups palestinian irregulars snipers based deir yassin constant threat jewish citizens jerusalem arab civilians killed deir yassin , attack conform propaganda picture arabs tried paint number arabs killed generally reported 250 1983 , however , eric silver guardian \( britain \) interviewed survivor , sammour , testified 116 population 800 1000 killed three days massacre , ' sammour explained , five clans deir yassin met moslem offices jerusalem made list people found \( alive \) went names nothing happend since 1948 make think figure wrong ' unlike plo 's deliberate attacks civilians , killing civilians deir yassin premeditated attackers left open escape corridor village 200 residents left unharmed remaining arabs feigned surrender fired jewish troops , attackers killed arab soldiers civilians indiscriminately independent observers told guardian among bodies found arab men disguised women
hm cs brown edu \( harry mamaysky \) subject final solution gaza \? reply center policy research 's message 23 apr 93 15 10 pdt organization dept computer science , brown university lines 30 article 1483500354 igc apc org center policy research cpr igc apc org writes final solution gaza ghetto \? israeli jews fete uprising warsaw ghetto , repress violent means uprising gaza ghetto attempt starve gazans elias families children stabbed high school palestinian freedom fighter ones offer help gazans perhaps families 18 israelis murdered last month palestinian freedom fighters jews warsaw ghetto fighting keep families sent nazi gas chambers groups like hamas islamic jihad fight expressed purpose driving jews sea perhaps , persuade jewish people help freedom fighters attain ultimate goal maybe freedom fighters choose spare co operative jews counting , elias pity murderers say mother jewish ashamed must son sorry , mrs davidsson harry
eshneken ux4 cso uiuc edu \( edward shnekendorf \) subject zionism organization university illinois urbana lines 24 following flyer distributed aipac 's annual policy conference 're israel , 're told go back came come back israel 're told go back came 're vocal much influence quiet afford control everything anyway buy something afford jews rich n't buy something 's 're cheap poor 're called dirty jew ignorant 're 're called called rich jew jap visibly organized 's secret jewish conspiracy 're secret jewish conspiracy 're told 're people say 're still told 're marry people 're called racist n't 're contaminating someone else 's race 're fire left right whites hate us white non whites hate us white anti semitic incidents rising every year 're told anti semitism n't exist 're paranoid 're told shut holocaust yet holocaust revisionism every year obnoxious 're called nice 're told n't act jewish anti semitism world wide people yet free complete work neither free desist reasons many many part jewish national liberation movement zionism
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject method employed armenians muslim people' reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 28 source men like leonard ramsden hartill bobbs merrill company , indianapolis \( 1926 \) \( 305 pages \) \( memoirs armenian officer participated genocide 2 5 million muslim people \) p 133 \( first paragraph \) movement took us three thousand turkish soldiers captured russians left hands russians abandoned struggle retreat two thousand poor devils cruelly put death sickened brutality displayed , could make effective protest , mercifully , shot many burned death method employed put quantity straw hut , hut turks , set fire straw serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject scenario genocide staged armenians 78 years ago reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 72 scenario genocide staged armenians 78 years ago x soviet armenia reenacted time azerbaijan stories survivors karabag massacre today 69 year old nine telling twin grandchildren cut pieces front eyes told wo n't kill babies die front eyes '' 72 year old huseyin turkish village khojalu town blown two hours killing children babies mercilessly said turks , must die '' 28 year old gulsum huseyin bayonetted 3 year old daughter stomach front eyes '' stories lies \? eye witnesses day dreaming \? stories forged turkish journalists region \? nonsense claim clear writings british journalists , two days quoted sunday times article british reported events karabag even turkish journalists pictures pictures people bayonetted , whose eyes gouged , ears cut even armenian radio could n't claim lies saying exaggeration means ' happened situation bad reported perhaps village khojalu town destroyed 4 hours , instead 2 gulsum huseyin 's 3 year old daughter bayonetted chest instead stomach massacre clearly seen dimensions effects massacre karabag environs cannot reduced word western , led french newspapers , ability nothing complicity massacre yesterday gave samples le figaro yesterday 's print news real events karabag printed french tv channels subject considered related karabag ''the necessity protecting armenians azeri attacks '' age living termed human rights age lots organizations united nations csce \( conference security cooperation europe \) , rules , designed fight human rights violations international reactions must made international cooperation support everybody every organization claiming civilized could serious human rights violation right live levels barbarity cruelty \? cooperation \? reactions \? intellectuals , journalists , writers , tv stations certain western countries france fast claim leadership human rights \? \? serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject performance staged armenians wwi reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 47 1941 , jews assembled doom nazi concentration camps , nazi armenians germany formed first armenian battalion fight alongside nazis 1943 , battalion grown eight battalions 20 , 000 strong command dro \( butcher \) architect cold blooded genocide 2 5 million turks kurds 1914 1920 armenian national council formed notorious dashnak party leaders berlin , recognized nazis encouraged , armenians summarily formed provisional government endorsed espoused fully principles nazis declared members aryan super race full participants hitler 's policy extermination jews armenian nazi conspiracy jews wwii encore performance staged armenians wwi , back stabbed exterminated 2 5 million turks invading russian army source adventures near east , 1918 1922 rawlinson , jonathan cape , 30 bedford square , london , 1934 \( first published 1923 \) \( 287 pages \) \( memoirs british officer witnessed armenian genocide 2 5 million muslim people \) p 184 \( second paragraph \) received definite information horrors committed armenian kars plain , able judge want discipline treatment detached parties , wired tiflis zivin 'in interests humanity armenians left independent command moslem population , , troops without discipline effective control , atrocities constantly committed , justice eventually held morally responsible' serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject let turks speak reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 95 article 1993apr16 535 cs yale edu ctstateu edu \( angelos karageorgiou \) writes turks greece badly mistreated come elected two , one two , representatives greek government \? pardon \? greece government rail roads two turkish ethnic deputies world human rights organizations scream , greeks persistently work removing parliamentary immunity dr sadik ahmet mr ahmet faikoglu dr sadik ahmet , turkish ethnic member greek parliament , visits us washington dc , july 7 doctor sadik ahmet , one two ethnic turkish members greek parliament visited us june 24 july 5th held meetings human rights organizations high level us officials washington dc new york press conference national press club washington dc , sadik ahmet explained plight ethnic turks greece stated six demands greek government ahmet said hope greece pressure generated western capitals insisting greece respects human rights done ethnic turks greece exactly south african apartheid added facing pure greek hatred racial discrimination spelling demands turkish ethnic community greece said want restoration greek citizenship 544 ethnic turks citizenship revoked using excuse people stayed greece long greek citizens residing greece , even one actively serving greek army besides , non turkish citizens greece subject kind interpretation extent many greek americans greek citizenship permanently live united states want guarantee turkish minority 's equal rights want greek government accept turkish minority grant us civil rights people waiting since 25 years get driving licenses greek government granting building permits turks buildings building new ones name turkish , hired government offices furthermore , want greek government give us equal opportunity business grant licenses participate economic life greece case , denied medical license necessary practicing surgery greek hospitals despite fact finished greek medical school followed necessary steps career want freedom expression ethnic turks allowed call turks subject number law suits even imprisoned called turk also want greek government provide freedom religion separate interview turkish times , dr sadik ahmet stated conditions ethnic turks deplorable eyes greek laws , ethnic greeks equal ethnic turks example , said 20 , 000 telephone subscribers \( thessaloniki \) 800 turks turks want telephone services home businesses said greek government changed election law keep parliament independent representative stated fact openly minimum qualification requirement parties terms receiving least 3 votes , imposed requirement independent parties , including turkish candidates ahmet born small village \( komotini \) , greece 1947 earned medical degree university thessaloniki 1974 served greek military 1985 got involved community affairs first time collecting 15 , 000 signatures protest unjust implementation laws ethnic turks 1986 , arrested police collecting signatures serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject role 'sdpa org' slaughter gunduz , ariyak , arikan , , reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 107 article 1993apr16 urartu sdpa org hla urartu sdpa org writes sure tells us far right whole turkish political spectrum nobody ever exposed crimes like \? personal role murder orhan gunduz kemal arikan , \? many muslims slaughtered 'sdpa org' publicly declared filed legal authorities \? please spell us people die sdpa 91 urartu uucp yes , stated stand sdpa 255 urartu uucp january 28 , 1982 los angeles kemal arikan slaughtered two armenians driving work march 22 , 1982 cambridge , massachusetts prelude murder gift import shop belonging orhan gunduz blown gunduz receives ultimatum either gives honorary position executed refuses responsibility claimed jcag sdpa may 4 , 1982 cambridge , massachusetts orhan gunduz , turkish honorary consul boston , would bow armenian terrorist ultimatum give title honorary consul attacked murdered cold blood president reagan orders avail eye witness gave description murderer shot survives falls silent one revolting triumphs senseless , mindless history armenian terrorism murder brings absolutely nothing except ego boost murderer within armenian terrorist , already wallowing self satisfaction involved murder sarik ariyak \? december 17 , 1980 sydney two nazi armenians massacre sarik ariyak bodyguard , engin sever jcag sdpa claim responsibility public knowledge founder marxist terrorist organization , asala \( integral part asala sdpa arf \) , hagopian , began notorious career member terrorist group perpetrated massacre israeli athletes munich olympics 1972 'armenian stole children turkiye fund criminal activities asala sdpa arf terrorists cold blooded murder defenceless turkish kurdish people armenian foundation provided 30 billion tl asala 01 09 92 , armenian foundation based istanbul found provided 30 billion turkish \( 6 million \) armenian terrorist organization asala murdered several turkish diplomats abroad experts international terrorism assert armenian terrorists use proceeds drug trafficking \( armenian foundation \) fund deadly enterprises deadliest terrorist , carlos , proclaimed spanish television organization entered working relationship armenian terrorists using drug trafficking raise money 'to slaughter innocent people , personal organizational role scheme \? recent reports confirmed u administration , indicate armenian terrorist organizations responsible bombing united states marine barracks beirut wo n't able get away crimes forever justice long armenian genocide 2 5 million muslim people 1914 1920 source documents volume \( 1919 \) document 42 , archive 1 2 , cabin 110 , drawer 1 \( 4 \) , file 373 , section \( \) , contents 9 , 9 1 \( office acting supreme commander acting assistant section director major ali \) sufficient mention terrible shameful crimes committed erzurum get idea armenian atrocities villages would also like mention disgust abominable sight , stain humanity , encountered west regiment proceeding town young turkish women , apparently beautiful one , lying dead one side road huge stick inserted vagina took corpses left spot invisible road serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
ayr1 cunixa cc columbia edu \( amir rosenblatt \) subject go hezbollah ! nntp posting host cunixa cc columbia edu reply ayr1 cunixa cc columbia edu \( amir rosenblatt \) organization columbia university lines 28 article 1993apr16 130037 18830 ncsu edu hernlem chess ncsu edu \( brad hernlem \) writes article 2bce0918 6105 news service uci edu , tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) writes article apr15 175334 72079 yuma acns colostate edu bh437292 lance colostate edu writes tim , ignoring fact palestinians lebanon disarmed hezbollah remains independent militia hezbollah attack israel except times idf burned sheikh mosavi , wife , young son course , israel would withdraw lebanon stop assassinating people shelling villages would n't make lebanese mad furthermore , hezbollah subsequently disarmed , would possible address one point , two katyusha rocket attacks made within lebanon , fatah claimed responsibility n't realize one use onr disarmed also , page 8 today 's new york times , faisal , high ranking fatah official , 9 month old son gunned beirut members abu nidal 46 assasination attempts 1993 alone two factions , resulting 11 deaths amir
tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) subject kol israel nntp posting host orion oac uci edu organization university california , irvine lines 9 article 1993apr16 jarvis csri toronto edu gfeygin unicorn eecg toronto edu \( feygin \) writes anyone schedule kol israel broadcasts different languages could posted e mailed assistance would greatly appreciated gf try thr rec radio newsgroup
dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) subject forged posting forged posting forged posting summary usually generated ca n't live ! organization p center regional studies lines 37 following posting forged name ! please ignore postings ! forged newsgroups soc culture turkish , talk politics mideast , talk politics forged soviet , soc culture greek forged dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) forged news software vax vms vnews 1 41 forged organization university tennessee computing center forged date fri , 16 apr 1993 21 36 00 gmt forged lines 293 forged forged dear friends , forged forged graduate student education university tennessee forged forged forged forged questionnaire forged teaching music deaf children forged forged name forged address e mail forged employing institution forged years experience grade level \( \) forged educational background bachelor masters forged professional field special educ music educ posting forged name ! please ignore postings ! david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org explain turkish troops p center regional studies armenian border , ca n't p box 382761 even explain 1915 \? cambridge , 02238 turkish mp , march 1992
waldo cybernet cse fau edu \( todd j dicker \) subject hamza salah , humanist organization cybernet bbs , boca raton , florida lines 19 dzk cs brown edu \( danny keren \) writes great humanist speaks one read mr salah 's posters , jews sons pigs monkeys , keeps promising final battle muslims jews \( trees cry muslims come kill jews hiding behind \) , makes jokes jews dying heart attacks etc , realize objective stance matters involved danny keren n't worry , danny , every blatantly violent abusive posting made immediately forwarded operator system account 'd imagine quite file started already indicated rules governing racist threatening use resources 'd imagine 'll hair short todd
ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) subject israeli terrorism organization university virginia lines 4 think israeli press might tad bit biased reporting events doubt propaganda machine goering reported accurately happening germany interesting basing truth israeli propaganda
copper denver colorado edu \( \) subject binyamin netanyahu cnn tonight organization university colorado denver lines 24 article 1993apr15 columbiasc ncr com nabil columbiasc ncr com \( nabil \) writes arab leaders n't cheat , actually allowed four wives implying arab leaders gays \? n't jewish gays \? arab leaders following islamic rules \? \( applicable cases like \? \) remember article year ago stated besides wife , saddam also assad 's brother wife several , gulf , within lifetimes , wives double \( manage keep four time \) irrelevant takes lot make leaders ruthless corrupt maybe netanyahu thought could making public confession average secular israeli care , though \? mossad probably applauded \) \( \( \( \( \)
eshneken ux4 cso uiuc edu \( edward shnekendorf \) subject israeli terrorism organization university illinois urbana lines 19 ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) writes think israeli press might tad bit biased reporting events doubt propaganda machine goering reported accurately happening germany interesting basing truth israeli propaganda consider israeli reporting events israel propoganda , consider washington post 's handling american events propoganda makes israeli press inherently biased opinion \? would n't compare nazi propoganda either unless want provide evidence israeli inaccuracies parallels nazism , suggest keep mouth shut i'm sick tired anti semites comparing israel nazis \( yes , opinion , compare israel nazis anti semite know damn well n't true trying discredit israel \) ed
tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) subject israeli terrorism nntp posting host orion oac uci edu organization university california , irvine lines 18 article 1993apr24 203620 6531 virginia edu ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) writes think israeli press might tad bit biased reporting events doubt propaganda machine goering reported accurately happening germany interesting basing truth israeli propaganda since one also unlikely get truth either arab palestinian news outlets , go understand , learn \? one form propoganda reliable another \? way determine try get beyond writer 's political agenda , whether side tim tim clock ph graduate student uci tel 714 , 8565361 department politics society fax 714 , 8568441 university california irvine home tel 714 , 8563446 irvine , ca 92717
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject , armenians exterminated 2 5 million muslim people reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 297 article news cso uiuc edu hovig uxa cso uiuc edu \( hovig heghinian \) writes article partisan interests would like know conversations demirel sound like \) simple x soviet armenian government must pay crime genocide 2 5 million muslims admitting crime making reparations turks kurds , criminal grandparents exterminated 2 5 million muslim people 1914 1920 news cso uiuc edu hovig uxa cso uiuc edu \( hovig heghinian \) say hear , hear motion seconded must new armenian clown counting asala sdpa arf crooks criminals prove something \? wonder mess criminal idiot forged non existent junk already trashed mutlu , cosar , akgun , , , hundreds people moreover , asala sdpa arf criminals responsible massacre turkish people also prevent entering turkiye sdpa yet renounce charter specifically calls second genocide turkish people racist , barbarian criminal view touted fascist x soviet armenian government merely step road said genocide shall begin \? ahmet eecg toronto edu \( parlakbilek ahmet \) subject yalanci , liar davidian keywords davidian , biggest liar message id jarvis csri toronto edu following article davidian claims hasan mutlu liar dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) message id 1154 urartu sdpa org article jarvis csri toronto edu ahmet eecg toronto edu \( ahmet parlakbilek \) asked simple question ap asking show one example mutlu , ap turk proven lie show tens lies fabrications ap davidian , like changing quote , even changing name book , anna obvious ridiculous armenians murdered 3 million moslems unsubstantiated charge obviously new net , read following sample one , three proven lies one day ! start yalanci txt parts deleted article cbnewsd att com usenet scribe turkish historical society , cbnewsd att com \( hasan b mutlu \) , continues revise history armenian people let 's witness operational definition revisionist yalanci \( liar , turkish \) yalanci according leo 1 yalanci yalanci situation clear one side , peace loving turks yalanci side , peace loving armenians , sides minding yalanci affairs submerged blood fire indeed , yalanci war actually waged committee yalanci dashnaktsutiun society ittihad terakki cruel yalanci savage war defense party political interests dashnaks yalanci incited revolts relied russian bayonets success yalanci yalanci 1 l , genocide political use twentieth century , yalanci new york 1981 , p 157 text available bookstores many libraries page 157 find discussion related atrocities \( title chapter \) topic page concerns submissions sub commission prevention discrimination minorities commission human rights united nations respect massacres cambodia mention turks armenians claimed vay , vay , vay yalanci ! vay turk mutlu vay ! depth foolishness turkish historical society engages , covering turkish genocide armenians , surpassed ridiculous historical material publicly displayed ! david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org life people sea , receiving message , checked reference , l , genocide found totally consistent davidian said book like voice armenian although read whole book , could find original quota one thing check original posting mutlu found original article mutlu follows according leo 1 situation clear one side , peace loving turks side , peace loving armenians , sides minding affairs submerged blood fire indeed , war actually waged committee dashnaktsutiun society ittihad terakki cruel savage war defense party political interests dashnaks incited revolts relied russian bayonets success 1 b leo ideology armenian revolution turkey , vol ii , p 157 , reference different ! davidian lied , time changed original posting mutlu accuse liar davidian , thank writing page number correctly biggest liar ever seen example showed tomorrow lie , may try make liar time decided read articles write answers also advise netters prevent lies , least may save time dealing lies following line vay , vay , vay yalanci ! vay turk mutlu vay ! also return insults wrote mutlu hope drowned lies ahmet parlakbilek vd8 cunixb cc columbia edu \( vedat dogan \) message id 1993apr8 news columbia edu article 1993apr7 urartu sdpa org dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) writes article 1993apr7 news columbia edu vd8 cunixb cc columbia edu \( vedat dogan \) wrote response article 1993mar31 urartu org dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) writes \( source adventures near east , 1918 1922 rawlinson , \( jonathan cape , 30 bedford square , london , 1934 \( first published 1923 \) \( \( 287 pages \) dd pile garbage ! first , reference first published dd 1924 1923 , 353 pages 287 ! second , upon checking page dd 178 , asked believe vd , mr davidian vd first published 1923 \( book desk , ! \) vd vd furthermore , book 353 pages either , vd claimed , mr davidian 377 pages question \? well , seems book total page numbers closer mine n crap posted mr \( ! boy ! please , tell us quotes crap \? like ! ! ! really exist \? said previous posting , quotes exactly exist source given serdar argic could n't reject addition , author 's preface written january 15 , 1923 , book published 1924 go book , front page author 's preface give year 1923 15 january , 1923 , respectively ! \( anyone check library , , send copies pages , please ask sct \) really n't care year first published \( 1923 1924 \) care book writes murders , tortures , et given quotes serdar argic , denial quotes groundless , etc dd provide gif postings required verify claim ! vd new \? post gif file , going go effort show turkish modified publication book , like last time ! claim book hand published 1923 \( first publication \) exactly quoted info book published 1934 \( serdar argic 's reference \) could n't reject , avoiding real issues twisting around let 's see lie ! \( 'non quotes publication \) first said quote given reference called serdar argic liar ! said , , mr davidian , exactly existed quote \( even gave call number , page numbers reject \) , lying talking modified , published book \( without proof , , , , etc \) \( way , possible publish book 1923 first published 1924 \( claim \) sure well suited , usual \) ready send copies necessary pages anybody wants compare fact mr davidian 's lies also give call number page numbers library use , 949 6 r 198 page numbers verify quotes 218 215 possible \( 's text 287 pages , mine 353 , 377 ! , claiming ca n't reference saying possible , point \? differences number pages \? mine published 1923 serdar argic 's 1934 need use book size letter publications , etc , etc give idea ! ! issue number pages book year first published tried hide whole point point books exactly quotes moslems killed , tortured , etc armenians quotes given serdar argic exist ! ! issue , n't \? able object bother anyway \? name tortures murders \( armenians \) crap people think like among main reasons world still many 1993 question \? news cso uiuc edu hovig uxa cso uiuc edu \( hovig heghinian \) hmm turks sure know keep track deaths , seem lose count around 1 5 million well , apparently another son dro 'the contend indeed happy know huge discussion distortions propagated several contemporaries feel simply act armenian governmental crony forum sadly mistaken duly embarrassed lecture another historical revisionist genocide apologist , fact article article , paragraph paragraph , line line , lie lie , revision revision , written net , plan armenian genocide 2 5 million turks kurds nothing less classic un redressed genocide neither x soviet union , similar ultra nationalist fascist dictatorship , employs dictates hitler domestic unrest also , feel free distribute responses nearest asala sdpa arf terrorists , armenian pseudo scholars , affiliated armenian criminal organizations armenian government got away genocide 2 5 million turkish men , women children enjoying fruits genocide , like , get away genocide 's cover chance serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject , armenians exterminated 2 5 million muslim people reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 297 article news cso uiuc edu hovig uxa cso uiuc edu \( hovig heghinian \) writes article partisan interests would like know conversations demirel sound like \) simple x soviet armenian government must pay crime genocide 2 5 million muslims admitting crime making reparations turks kurds , criminal grandparents exterminated 2 5 million muslim people 1914 1920 news cso uiuc edu hovig uxa cso uiuc edu \( hovig heghinian \) say hear , hear motion seconded must new 'arromdian' counting asala sdpa arf crooks criminals prove something \? wonder mess criminal idiot forged non existent junk already trashed mutlu , cosar , akgun , , , hundreds people moreover , asala sdpa arf criminals responsible massacre turkish people also prevent entering turkiye sdpa yet renounce charter specifically calls second genocide turkish people racist , barbarian criminal view touted fascist x soviet armenian government merely step road said genocide shall begin \? ahmet eecg toronto edu \( parlakbilek ahmet \) subject yalanci , liar davidian keywords davidian , biggest liar message id jarvis csri toronto edu following article davidian claims hasan mutlu liar dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) message id 1154 urartu sdpa org article jarvis csri toronto edu ahmet eecg toronto edu \( ahmet parlakbilek \) asked simple question ap asking show one example mutlu , ap turk proven lie show tens lies fabrications ap davidian , like changing quote , even changing name book , anna obvious ridiculous armenians murdered 3 million moslems unsubstantiated charge obviously new net , read following sample one , three proven lies one day ! start yalanci txt parts deleted article cbnewsd att com usenet scribe turkish historical society , cbnewsd att com \( hasan b mutlu \) , continues revise history armenian people let 's witness operational definition revisionist yalanci \( liar , turkish \) yalanci according leo 1 yalanci yalanci situation clear one side , peace loving turks yalanci side , peace loving armenians , sides minding yalanci affairs submerged blood fire indeed , yalanci war actually waged committee yalanci dashnaktsutiun society ittihad terakki cruel yalanci savage war defense party political interests dashnaks yalanci incited revolts relied russian bayonets success yalanci yalanci 1 l , genocide political use twentieth century , yalanci new york 1981 , p 157 text available bookstores many libraries page 157 find discussion related atrocities \( title chapter \) topic page concerns submissions sub commission prevention discrimination minorities commission human rights united nations respect massacres cambodia mention turks armenians claimed vay , vay , vay yalanci ! vay turk mutlu vay ! depth foolishness turkish historical society engages , covering turkish genocide armenians , surpassed ridiculous historical material publicly displayed ! david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org life people sea , receiving message , checked reference , l , genocide found totally consistent davidian said book like voice armenian although read whole book , could find original quota one thing check original posting mutlu found original article mutlu follows according leo 1 situation clear one side , peace loving turks side , peace loving armenians , sides minding affairs submerged blood fire indeed , war actually waged committee dashnaktsutiun society ittihad terakki cruel savage war defense party political interests dashnaks incited revolts relied russian bayonets success 1 b leo ideology armenian revolution turkey , vol ii , p 157 , reference different ! davidian lied , time changed original posting mutlu accuse liar davidian , thank writing page number correctly biggest liar ever seen example showed tomorrow lie , may try make liar time decided read articles write answers also advise netters prevent lies , least may save time dealing lies following line vay , vay , vay yalanci ! vay turk mutlu vay ! also return insults wrote mutlu hope drowned lies ahmet parlakbilek vd8 cunixb cc columbia edu \( vedat dogan \) message id 1993apr8 news columbia edu article 1993apr7 urartu sdpa org dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) writes article 1993apr7 news columbia edu vd8 cunixb cc columbia edu \( vedat dogan \) wrote response article 1993mar31 urartu org dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) writes \( source adventures near east , 1918 1922 rawlinson , \( jonathan cape , 30 bedford square , london , 1934 \( first published 1923 \) \( \( 287 pages \) dd pile garbage ! first , reference first published dd 1924 1923 , 353 pages 287 ! second , upon checking page dd 178 , asked believe vd , mr davidian vd first published 1923 \( book desk , ! \) vd vd furthermore , book 353 pages either , vd claimed , mr davidian 377 pages question \? well , seems book total page numbers closer mine n crap posted mr \( ! boy ! please , tell us quotes crap \? like ! ! ! really exist \? said previous posting , quotes exactly exist source given serdar argic could n't reject addition , author 's preface written january 15 , 1923 , book published 1924 go book , front page author 's preface give year 1923 15 january , 1923 , respectively ! \( anyone check library , , send copies pages , please ask sct \) really n't care year first published \( 1923 1924 \) care book writes murders , tortures , et given quotes serdar argic , denial quotes groundless , etc dd provide gif postings required verify claim ! vd new \? post gif file , going go effort show turkish modified publication book , like last time ! claim book hand published 1923 \( first publication \) exactly quoted info book published 1934 \( serdar argic 's reference \) could n't reject , avoiding real issues twisting around let 's see lie ! \( 'non quotes publication \) first said quote given reference called serdar argic liar ! said , , mr davidian , exactly existed quote \( even gave call number , page numbers reject \) , lying talking modified , published book \( without proof , , , , etc \) \( way , possible publish book 1923 first published 1924 \( claim \) sure well suited , usual \) ready send copies necessary pages anybody wants compare fact mr davidian 's lies also give call number page numbers library use , 949 6 r 198 page numbers verify quotes 218 215 possible \( 's text 287 pages , mine 353 , 377 ! , claiming ca n't reference saying possible , point \? differences number pages \? mine published 1923 serdar argic 's 1934 need use book size letter publications , etc , etc give idea ! ! issue number pages book year first published tried hide whole point point books exactly quotes moslems killed , tortured , etc armenians quotes given serdar argic exist ! ! issue , n't \? able object bother anyway \? name tortures murders \( armenians \) crap people think like among main reasons world still many 1993 question \? news cso uiuc edu hovig uxa cso uiuc edu \( hovig heghinian \) hmm turks sure know keep track deaths , seem lose count around 1 5 million well , apparently another son dro 'the contend indeed happy know huge discussion distortions propagated several contemporaries feel simply act armenian governmental crony forum sadly mistaken duly embarrassed lecture another historical revisionist genocide apologist , fact article article , paragraph paragraph , line line , lie lie , revision revision , written net , plan armenian genocide 2 5 million turks kurds nothing less classic un redressed genocide neither x soviet union , similar ultra nationalist fascist dictatorship , employs dictates hitler domestic unrest also , feel free distribute responses nearest asala sdpa arf terrorists , armenian pseudo scholars , affiliated armenian criminal organizations armenian government got away genocide 2 5 million turkish men , women children enjoying fruits genocide , like , get away genocide 's cover chance serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject armenians get away genocide azeri people reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 47 article cbfsb cb att com enis cbnewsg cb att com \( enis \) writes article zuma uucp , sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) armenians get away genocide 204 , 000 azeri people contrary , armenians get away genocide 204 , 000 azeri people armenians already got away raping , torturing , millions innocent moslem peoples eastern anatolia time , enis furthermore , new generation risen equipped deep sense commitment , politically mature conscious , pursue turkish cause , necessary means , ranging political diplomatic armed struggle words , demand fascist government x soviet armenia redress wrongs done people crime systematic cleansing mass killing extermination muslim population soviet republic armenia , karabag , bosnia herzegovina comparable extermination 2 5 million muslims armenian government wwi 6 million european jews wwii \( azeri leader september 25 , 1992 \) today 's ethnic cleansing policies serbian dictatorship muslims yugoslavia , well soviet republic armenia 's muslim population neighboring azerbaijan , really different aspirations genocide perpetrated armenian government 78 years ago turkish kurdish muslims sephardic jews living lands \( kurdish leader october 13 , 1992 \) serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject though book dealing genocide muslims armenians reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 45 article blaze cs jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \( ken arromdee \) writes repeat everything said word race related substituted racist changes phrasing complaining used wrong word quibble well , armenian grandparents fascist early 1934 , k papazian asserted armenians toward fascism ' 1 time , could foreseen armenians would actively assume pro german stance even collaborate world war ii book dealing armenian genocide turkish population eastern anatolia however , extreme ideological tendencies could observed within dashnagtzoutune long outbreak second world war 1936 , example , quoted 'hairenik weekly ' race force treasure follow history shall see races , due innate force , created nations secure insofar reverted race becoming nation today germany italy strong nations live breath terms race hand , russia comparatively weak bereft social 2 1 k papazian , perverted , ' \( boston , baikar press 1934 \) , preface 2 'hairenik weekly , ' friday , april 10 , 1936 , 'the race serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject armenians exterminated 2 5 million muslim people denying obvious \? reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 109 article 1993apr23 oucsace cs ohiou edu cats ohiou edu writes read group time , appalled lack scholarship , fuzzy thinking , reliance obsessed obnoxious posters well , armenian jewish scholars , denying obvious \? source hovannisian , richard g armenia road independence , 1918 university california press \( berkeley los angeles \) , 1967 , p 13 addition kars batum oblasts empire increased area transcaucasia 130 , 000 square miles estimated population entire region 1886 4 , 700 , 000 , 940 , 000 \( 20 percent \) armenian , 1 , 200 , 000 \( 25 percent \) georgian , 2 , 220 , 000 \( 45 percent \) moslem latter group , 1 , 140 , 000 tatars paradoxically , barely one third transcaucasia 's armenians lived erevan guberniia , christians constituted majority three seven uezds erevan uezd , administrative center province , 44 , 000 armenians compared 68 , 000 moslems time russian census 1897 , however , armenians established scant majority , 53 percent , guberniia risen 1916 60 percent , 670 , 000 1 , 120 , 000 inhabitants impressive change province 's ethnic character notwithstanding , , eve creation armenian republic , solid block 370 , 000 tartars continued dominate southern districts , outskirts ereven border persia \( see also map 1 historic armenia map 4 administrative subdivisions transcaucasia \) 1920 , '0' percent turk closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape tartars proceeded work extermination troops surrounded village village little resistance offered artillery knocked huts heaps stone dust villages became untenable inhabitants fled fields , bullets bayonets completed work tartars escaped course found refuge mountains succeeded crossing border turkey rest killed whole length borderland russian armenia nakhitchevan akhalkalaki hot plains ararat cold mountain plateau north dotted mute mournful ruins tartar villages quiet , villages , except howling wolves jackals visit paw scattered bones dead ohanus appressian men like p 202 soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul power tear away veil illusion us create certainly possible severe artificial life support system imagined 'ethnic purity' us falsely trust structure support heart beats alien land \( sahak melkonian 1920 preserving armenian purity \) 1993apr24 walter bellcore com bellcore com \( daniel \) world 's inaction conflict began mostly christian armenian enclave inside muslim azerbaijan might encouraged conflict bosnia herzegovina , said moscow based activist , 's part armenian kidding armenians tore apart ottoman empire 's eastern provinces , massacred 2 5 million defenseless turkish women , children elderly people , burned thousands turkish kurdish villages exterminated entire turkish population armenian dictatorship 1914 1920 outrageous hand still employed today armenia brings depth verification turkish genocide hard match hundred years ago armenians thought could get whatever wanted sheer terror like russian anarchists accepted role models several armenian terror groups like asala sdpa arf terrorism revisionism triangle resorted tactics 1980s , butchering scores innocent turks families united states europe seems , different scale , fascist x soviet armenia today massacre civilian population small azeri town \( pop 6000 \) karabagh , azerbaijan , reported taken place night feb 28 coordinated military operation mechanized division cis army armenian close 1000 people reported massacred elderly children spared many badly beaten shot close range sense rage helplessness overwhelmed azeri population face well armed equipped armenian neighboring azeri city outside karabagh region come heavy armenian artillery shelling city hospital hit two pregnant women well new born infant killed azerbaijan appealing international community condemn barbaric ruthless attacks population sovereignty serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject destroying ethnic identity turks greece \( macedonians \) reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 145 article news cso uiuc edu ptg2351 uxa cso uiuc edu \( panos tamamidis \) writes sure memory weak let refresh memory \( 's late \) first called istanbul let even spell n b u l grandfather came greece , official name city related 'arromdian' asala sdpa arf terrorism revisionism triangle \? , read carefully following , speak recent helsinki watch 78 page report , broken promises torture ditto 1 helsinki watch problems turks western thrace continue ankara \( \) 15 page report helsinki watch stated turkish minority western thrace still faced problems stipulated discriminatory policy implemented greek government brought end report western thrace emphasized greek government grant social political rights members minorities equal enjoyed greek citizens addition must recognize existence turkish minority western thrace grant right identify , may 1992 2 greece west thrace turks independent mp ahmet faikoglu said greek state trying cut contacts relations turkish minority turkey pointing greek minority living istanbul called greek ethnic definition , religion minority western thrace considered interview greek newspaper said greek citizen turkish origin individuals minority living western trace also turkish emphasizing education problem turkish minority western thrace faikoglu said according agreement signed 1951 greece must distribute textbooks printed turkey turkish minority schools western thrace activities komotini independent mp dr sadik ahmet defend rights turkish minority , faikoglu said fact helped greece prevented greece , cradle democracy , losing face european countries forcing greek government recognize legal rights greek relations , pointed countries predestined live peace geographical historical reasons said turkey greece must resist foreign powers trying create cooperating , adding turkey observed improve relations greece , january 1993 3 macedonian human rights activists face trial greece two ethnic macedonian human rights activists face trial athens alleged crimes greek state , according court summons \( \) obtained sideropoulos bulev \( \) charged greek criminal law making comments athenian magazine sideropoulos bulev gave interview greek weekly magazine march 11 , 1992 , said macedonians denied basic human rights greece would field ethnic macedonian candidate coming greek general election bulev said interview greek , macedonian sideropoulos said article greece recognise macedonia allegations regarding territorial aspirations greece tales panic secure border , time borders barriers within eec falling main charge two , according court summons , spread intentionally false information might create unrest fear among citizens , might affect public security harm international interests country \( greece \) greek state recognise existence macedonian ethnicity believed 350 , 000 1 , 000 , 000 ethnic macedonians living within greece , largely concentrated north crime greek state anyone declares macedonian 1913 greece , serbia yugoslavia bulgaria macedonia three pieces 1919 albania took 50 macedonian villages part serbo yugoslav occupation broke away 1991 independent republic macedonia 1 5 million macedonians republic 500 , 000 bulgaria 150 , 000 albania 300 , 000 serbia proper sideropoulos long time macedonian human rights greece , lost job forestry worker years ago even exiled obscure greek island pressure amnesty international forced greek government allow return home town florina \( \) northern greece \( aegean macedonia \) , majority ethnic macedonians live balkan watchers see sideropoulos affair show trial greece desperate clamp internal dissent , especially comes issue recognition northern neighbour , republic macedonia last year state department united states condemned greece bad treatment ethnic macedonians turks \( largely live western thrace \) remains seen us government anything presidential elections serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
adams bellini berkeley edu \( adam l schwartz \) subject danny talk nntp posting host bellini berkeley edu organization u c berkeley erl lines 9 danny , israeli journalist , speaking tonight \( wednesday , 7 30 pm \) messy subject politics israel speaking hillel u c berkeley campus talk sponsored berkeley israel action committee \( \) adam schwartz adams robotics berkeley edu
adams bellini berkeley edu \( adam l schwartz \) subject danny speaking tonight nntp posting host bellini berkeley edu organization u c berkeley erl lines 7 danny , israeli journalist , speaking tonight \( wednesday , 7 30 pm \) messy subject politics israel speaking hillel u c berkeley campus adam schwartz adams robotics berkeley edu
ifaz706 utxvms cc utexas edu \( noam tractinsky \) subject go hizbollah ii ! lines 28 nntp posting host purple cc utexas edu organization university texas austin lines 28 israel line , thursday , april 22 , 1993 today 's ha'aretz reports three women injured katyusha rocket fell center community rocket one several dozen fired communities galilee northern israel yesterday terrorist organization article 1993apr14 ncsu edu hernlem chess ncsu edu \( brad hernlem \) wrote congratulations brave men lebanese resistance ! every israeli son place grave underlining moral bankruptcy israel 's occupation drawing attention israeli government 's policy reckless disregard civilian life apparently , hizbollah encouraged brad 's cheers \( good job , brad \) someone forgot tell , though , brad asks place israeli sons grave , daughters paraphrasing bit , every rocket hizbollah fires galilee , justify israel 's holding security zone noam
smith minerva harvard edu \( steven smith \) subject u holocaust memorial museum costly dangerous mistake reply dgannon techbook techbook com 's message 21 apr 1993 07 55 09 0700 organization applied mathematics , harvard university lines 15 dgannon techbook techbook com \( dan gannon \) writes u holocaust memorial museum costly dangerous mistake theodore j o'keefe holocaust revisionism theodore j o'keefe editor institute historical review educated harvard university according 1990 harvard alumni directory , mr o'keefe failed graduate may decide indeed educated anywhere steven smith
jaa12 cunixa cc columbia edu \( john absood \) subject hamza salah , humanist nntp posting host cunixa cc columbia edu reply jaa12 cunixa cc columbia edu \( john absood \) organization columbia university lines 13 people sure posts forwarded system operator \? \? \? forwarding \? \? \? similar file kept mr omran \? \? \? salam , john absood marlow ceased , sat apart , indistinct silent , pose meditating buddha nobody moved time offing barred black bank clouds , leading utter ends earth flowed sky seemed
plains nodak edu \( andrew \) subject exact , 2 5 million readers enlightened serdar argic summary p article ns1 organization north dakota higher education computing network lines 13 nntp posting host plains nodak edu article zuma uucp sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) writes \( k serdar argic , merciful compassionate \) serdar argic 's , divine , knowing , wisdom omitted solemn tribute join serdar argic fan club \? get shirt \? friendly neighborhood alien life n't since david koresh died
cy779 cleveland freenet edu \( anas omran \) subject israeli terrorism organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 27 reply cy779 cleveland freenet edu \( anas omran \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu previous article , tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) says article 1993apr24 203620 6531 virginia edu ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) writes think israeli press might tad bit biased reporting events doubt propaganda machine goering reported accurately happening germany interesting basing truth israeli propaganda since one also unlikely get truth either arab palestinian news outlets , go understand , learn \? one form propoganda reliable another \? many neutral human rights organizations always report situation , people used see tv , israelis allow go deep israelis used arrest sometimes kill neutral reporters , another kind terrorism committed jews palestine allow fair neutral coverage situation palestine determine try get beyond writer 's political agenda , whether side tim anas omran
astein nysernet org \( alan stein \) subject israel 's expansion ii organization nysernet , inc lines 16 ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) writes understand israel captured feels right annex ca n't fully understand deal palestinians much way jews treated holocaust \( final solution \) hitler totally n't get u subsidize existance thorough abuser human rights wondering seems 're misinformed wondering comparison 're making totally base , offensive sane people alan h stein astein israel nysernet org
astein nysernet org \( alan stein \) subject hamza salah , humanist organization nysernet , inc lines 16 dzk cs brown edu \( danny keren \) writes cl056 cleveland freenet edu \( hamaza h salah \) writes well said mr beyer \) great humanist speaks one read mr salah 's posters , jews sons pigs monkeys , keeps promising final battle muslims jews \( trees cry muslims come kill jews hiding behind \) , makes jokes jews dying heart attacks etc , realize objective stance matters involved humanist , sub humanist \? \) alan h stein astein israel nysernet org
astein nysernet org \( alan stein \) subject zionism racism organization nysernet , inc lines 10 c sessions dcs witsend tnet com writes steve lets , zionism \? assuming mean , n't told , zionism racism tautological statement think confusing tautological false misleading alan h stein astein israel nysernet org
astein nysernet org \( alan stein \) subject israeli terrorism organization nysernet , inc lines 20 cl056 cleveland freenet edu \( hamaza h salah \) writes would tell arab country jews migrating palestine \? last arab country syria migrated due jewish state economical dilemma ! usual , salah totally racist , manages get virtually facts wrong assad pledged allow jews leave syria , go israel unfortunately , escaped yet , n't want leave rather , assad went back word stopped issuing travel permits claimed bureaucratic , everyone knows tactic pressure israel alan h stein astein israel nysernet org
jar2e faraday clas virginia edu \( virginia 's gentleman \) subject israeli terrorism organization university virginia lines 12 would asking much document allegations israel used arrest kill neutral reporters \? think confuse israel nations geographical region notion free , government , press corps would joke notion israel threatens human rights palestinians sealing gaza strip , get real palestinian palestinian civil war stops palestinians behave like mature human beings , israel talk concessions sides peace
backon vms huji ac il subject israeli terrorism distribution world organization hebrew university jerusalem lines 45 article 1rd7eo 1a4 usenet ins cwru edu , cy779 cleveland freenet edu \( anas omran \) writes previous article , tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) says article 1993apr24 203620 6531 virginia edu ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) writes think israeli press might tad bit biased reporting events doubt propaganda machine goering reported accurately happening germany interesting basing truth israeli propaganda since one also unlikely get truth either arab palestinian news outlets , go understand , learn \? one form propoganda reliable another \? many neutral human rights organizations always report situation , people used see tv , israelis allow go deep israelis used arrest sometimes kill neutral reporters anas , course ! needed blood matza , passover last month \) n't give us national geographic recent trip palestine \? disappointed saw \? \) josh backon vms huji ac il , another kind terrorism committed jews palestine allow fair neutral coverage situation palestine determine try get beyond writer 's political agenda , whether side tim anas omran
subject israeli terrorism amoss shuldig cs huji ac il \( amos shapira \) 1993apr24 203620 6531 virginia edu news service uci edu 1rd7eo 1a4 usenet ins cwru edu organization inst comp sci , hebrew university , jerusalem , israel nntp posting host shuldig cs huji ac il reply cy779 cleveland freenet edu 's message 25 apr 1993 05 26 48 gmt lines 14 cy779 cleveland freenet edu \( anas omran \) writes israelis used arrest sometimes kill neutral reporters eh \? \? \? \? could please give details event neutral observer killed purpose israeli soldier \? amos amos shapira \( jumper extraordinaire \) true power corrupts , c system group , hebrew university , absolute power better ! jerusalem 91904 , israel amoss cs huji ac il demon son
organization american university university computing center paul h pimentel pp3903a auvm american edu subject israel 's expansion ii 1993apr20 news columbia edu lines 5 gives isreal right keep jeruseleum \? home muslim well jewish religion , among others heck , nobody ever mentions yitza k shamir forty fifty years ago terrorize westerners much way abdul nidal today seems isrealis nowhere arabs , theref ore right jerusaleum much isreal
jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) subject u holocaust memorial museum costly dangerous mistake organization department redundancy department lines 32 article techbook techbook com dgannon techbook techbook com \( dan gannon \) writes u holocaust memorial museum costly dangerous mistake theodore j o'keefe hard washington monument , within clear view jefferson memorial , easy stroll mall majestic lincoln memorial , arisen , hallowed territory united states america , costly dangerous mistake ground monument yet marks countless sacrifices achievements americans races creeds building defense nation , sits today massive costly , devoted contentious false version ordeal europe world war ii , non american members minority , sectarian group , deceptive guise tolerance , united states holocaust memorial museum begins propaganda campaign , financed american taxpayer , interests israel adherents america reading first paragraph , quick scan confirmed first impression bunch revisionist anti semitic hogwash ny times reported april 18 , 1993 museum built private contributions federal land hate mongering article devoid current historical fact , intellectual content social value toilet goes jake livni jake bony1 bony com ten years , george bush american occupied new york replaced jimmy carter opinions employer opinions standard failed president
ahmeda mcrcim mcgill edu \( ahmed abu abed \) subject final solution palestine \? originator ahmeda mcrcim mcgill edu nntp posting host mcrcim mcgill edu organization mcgill research centre intelligent machines lines 59 article hm angell cs brown edu , hm cs brown edu \( harry mamaysky \) writes article 1483500354 igc apc org center policy research cpr igc apc org writes final solution gaza ghetto \? israeli jews fete uprising warsaw ghetto , repress violent means uprising gaza ghetto attempt starve gazans jews warsaw ghetto fighting keep families sent nazi gas chambers groups like hamas islamic jihad fight expressed purpose driving jews sea perhaps , persuade jewish people help freedom fighters attain ultimate goal maybe freedom fighters choose spare co operative jews counting , elias pity murderers say mother jewish ashamed must son sorry , mrs davidsson harry k , turn driving jews sea \? ! sick tired 'driving jews sea' sentance attributed islamic movements plo simply ca n't proven part plan ! \( pro israeli activists repeat like without checking authenticity since coined brith \) hamas islamic jihad believe , far get arab media , islamic state protects rights inhabitants koranic law would reversal 1948 situation jews palestine took control land \( mostly muslim \) inhabitants however , whoever committed crimes humanity \( torture , blowing homes , murders , \) must treated tried war criminal political thought movements shows freedom choice given jews living new law leaving choice plo , loss explain going inside arafat 's mind although political thinking seems far fetched israel acting true super power region , islamic movements using weapon jews used establish state religion ahmed
tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) subject israeli terrorism nntp posting host orion oac uci edu organization university california , irvine lines 19 article amoss 93apr25163327 shuldig cs huji ac il amoss shuldig cs huji ac il \( amos shapira \) writes cy779 cleveland freenet edu \( anas omran \) writes israelis used arrest sometimes kill neutral reporters eh \? \? \? \? could please give details event neutral observer killed purpose israeli soldier \? amos actually , i'm still trying understand self justifying rationale behind recent murder ian \( \? \) gaza tim clock ph graduate student uci tel 714 , 8565361 department politics society fax 714 , 8568441 university california irvine home tel 714 , 8563446 irvine , ca 92717
ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) subject israel 's expansion ii organization university virginia lines 23 bc744 cleveland freenet edu writes comparison palestinian situation holocaust insulting completely false person making rude false comparison either ignorant holocaust , also ignorant situation mideast , anti semite compare complicated political situation genocide 6 , 000 , 000 jews racist first never said holocaust said holocaust i'm ignorant holocaust know nazi germany people \( maybe including \) resent ignorant statements call people names disagree position opposing atrocities commited israeli hardly qualifies anti semitism think name calling valid form argument intellectual circles , need get often n't think suffering jews wwii justifies crimes commited israeli government attempt call civil liberterians like anti semetic appreciated
ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) subject israeli terrorism organization university virginia lines 22 tclock orion oac uci edu writes since one also unlikely get truth either arab palestinian news outlets , go understand , learn \? one form propoganda reliable another \? way determine try get beyond writer 's political agenda , whether side tim first let correct goering \( \) ran nazi propaganda machine agree arab news sources also inherently biased believe statement reacting since american accounts events fully like israeli accounts , americans biased thought israelis motivation bias un tried many times condemn israel gross violation human rights however us vetoed attempts interesting note u often country opposing condemnation \( well u israel \) also interesting note means western countries realize human rights violations maybe human rights violations going
ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) subject freedom u organization university virginia lines 11 started reading articles news group seems attempt members quiet members scare tactics believe one posting said postings one person forwarded server keeps file hope appropriate action might taken n't know guys america attempts curtail someones first amendment rights appreciated , let everyone speak mind regardless feel take fascistic repressive ideals back came
tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) subject conventional israel palestinians nntp posting host orion oac uci edu organization university california , irvine lines 37 article news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) writes article news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) writes latest israeli proposal , first proposed february 1992 , contains following assumptions concerning nature interim status refering wb gaza , palestinians , implemented negotiations states israel remain existing source authority final status agreed upon exercise powers isga subject cooperation coordination israel israel negotiate delegation powers responsibilities areas administration , justice , personnel , agriculture , education , business , tourism , labor social welfare , local police , local transportation communications , municipal affairs religious affairs palestinian march 1992 limitations \( pisga \) powers responsibilities except derive character interim arrangement strong police force responsible security public order opt request assistance un peacekeeping force disputes israel self governing arrangements settled committee composed representatives five permanent members un security council , secretary general \( un \) , pisga , jordan , egypt , syria israel read concrete proposals concerning creation palestinian police force talk 's next stage anyone knows details idea \? fit differing conceptions listed \? tim clock ph graduate student uci tel 714 , 8565361 department politics society fax 714 , 8568441 university california irvine home tel 714 , 8563446 irvine , ca 92717
cpr igc apc org \( center policy research \) subject investment yehuda shomron lines 16 nf id r netcom com cdp 000 733 nf cdp uucp ! cpr apr 16 17 02 00 1993 aryans base reasoning nazi ideology racists thus spoke american citizen name judaism judaism , think judaism extremist dangerous philosophy suspect however martin , albert einstein jewish scholars would rather converted christianity stay jews , would perceived judaism perverted philosophy wish learn something perversion judaism , consult work yehoshua , many years head israeli intelligence opponent plo latest book published english includes detailed analysis judeo nazism
arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \( ken arromdee \) subject american jewish congress open letter clinton organization johns hopkins university cs dept lines 66 article vxcrna cern ch casper vxcrna cern ch \( casper , davi ppe \) writes must say appalled american jewish council 's open letter america world 's policeman cannot take upon solve problems entire world america 's young men women sent yugoslavia , period people feel strongly enough , let go individuals fight alongside butchers choice volunteer army argument gave applies draft huh \? sorry , misread remark young men women \( though unsure sentence mean \) furthermore , people become butchers ethnic cleansed automatically call butchers muslim \? disappointed logic , especially coming sci skeptic implied anyone wants send troops bosnia wants help butchers choice since primary targets help muslim victims ethnic cleansing , imply muslim victims butchers 1 \) people become butchers butchering atrocities sides implies sides equal true , may sometimes difficult impossible determine side victim , mean victims exist would , wwii said atrocities sides jews germans \? people butchering centuries one side wins gets wants , stop yes , sides want different things muslims chiefly want ethnic cleansed serbians want ethnic cleanse muslims indeed true side stop gets wants , things two sides want equivalent 2 \) quite impressive leap reasoning assume racist call someone butcher muslim fact , think contrary , media fixation war , opposed dozens upon dozens civil wars fought recent past white people , europe atrocities occur third world , much news coverage , nearly level outrage recall , anything somalia , \( apparent \) left wingers saying reason everyone willing send troops bosnia somalia third americans consider unworthy help suddenly shut us decided send troops opposite place predicted theory matter , theory suggests americans want help serbs , 're christian , muslims desire intervene bosnia based racism people less like us , everyone want help side less like us \? especially sides equal seem think \? first day christmas truelove served leftover turkey ! second day christmas truelove served turkey casserole made leftover turkey days 3 4 deleted flaming turkey wings ! pizza hut commercial \( tlu gic bait \) ken arromdee \( arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \)
arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \( ken arromdee \) subject american jewish congress open letter clinton organization johns hopkins university cs dept lines 30 article vxcrna cern ch casper vxcrna cern ch \( casper , davi ppe \) writes aware arms embargo yugoslavia , including bosnia , guarantees massive military superiority serbian forces allow bosnians try defend \? sell weapons sides , losing one , \? ending embargo must sell anything europeans want sell weapons one sides , welcome far i'm concerned seem oppose ending embargo know , difficult europeans sell weapons embargo place automatically accept argument bosnia worse recent civil wars , say vietnam instance difference happening white people inside europe , lots tv coverage reason , furthermore sides equal , would n't us racist americans favoring good christians \( serbs \) instead non christians really seem favor \? first day christmas truelove served leftover turkey ! second day christmas truelove served turkey casserole made leftover turkey days 3 4 deleted flaming turkey wings ! pizza hut commercial \( tlu gic bait \) ken arromdee \( arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \)
casper vxcrna cern ch \( casper , davi ppe \) subject american jewish congress open letter clinton news software vax vms vnews 1 41 organization european organization nuclear research , cern lines 84 article cj blaze cs jhu edu , arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \( ken arromdee \) writes article vxcrna cern ch casper vxcrna cern ch \( casper , davi ppe \) writes complained us taking point bosnia , europeans ken says bosnians morally superior serbians implies sides equal true , may sometimes difficult impossible determine side victim , mean victims exist yes , victims exist number victims world day think balance , intervention would create victims , including american ones since first responsibility us government protect americans , think serve role best staying away bosnia regional conflicts would , wwii said atrocities sides jews germans \? course jews trying carve territory germany either , except small scale resistance larger , army government people butchering centuries one side wins gets wants , stop yes , sides want different things muslims chiefly want ethnic cleansed serbians want ethnic cleanse muslims indeed true side stop gets wants , things two sides want equivalent see pattern atrocities fairly often practiced tactic power driving away eliminating population area want control us tried basically vietnam , iraqis kuwait , israelis palestine , south africa , etc , etc , etc sucks , 's ugly , 's genocide impression serbs want eliminate every muslim yugoslavia still say bosnians getting asses kicked surrender evacuate areas ca n't hold said fixation bosnia due european country , rather third world recall , anything somalia , \( apparent \) left wingers saying reason everyone willing send troops bosnia somalia third americans consider unworthy help suddenly shut us decided send troops opposite place predicted theory staunch republican , btw irony arguing military intervention arguments based vietnam escaped opposed us intervention somalia reasons , although clearly nearly risky matter , theory suggests americans want help serbs , 're christian , muslims desire intervene bosnia based racism people less like us , everyone want help side less like us \? especially sides equal seem think \? well , one thing remember , press likes good story good business , n't know btw , everyone wants help side less like us never said two sides morally equivalent , said neither one innocent many good reasons stay away 1 \) europeans perfectly able deal dispute borders way put another way , assistance offer europeans already possess good promote idea anyone 's mind united states responsible cleaning every bloody mess world 2 \) clinton man lead country military adventure full stop 3 \) means clear intervention would accomplish , would necessarily help victims clear goal point commitment could ended
casper vxcrna cern ch \( casper , davi ppe \) subject american jewish congress open letter clinton news software vax vms vnews 1 41 organization european organization nuclear research , cern lines 50 article f3 blaze cs jhu edu , arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \( ken arromdee \) writes article vxcrna cern ch casper vxcrna cern ch \( casper , davi ppe \) writes aware arms embargo yugoslavia , including bosnia , guarantees massive military superiority serbian forces allow bosnians try defend \? sell weapons sides , losing one , \? ending embargo must sell anything right 'll probably end giving weapons europeans want sell weapons one sides , welcome far i'm concerned seem oppose ending embargo know , difficult europeans sell weapons embargo place wwii , british managed supply arms despite german occupation europeans anything besides sponsoring peace conferences , would problem putting kind weapon wanted bosnia guess would favor ending embargo congress would pass law forbidding export us military supplies yugoslavia , including via third parties risks us drawn active role would great see arms embargo major factor outcome war automatically accept argument bosnia worse recent civil wars , say vietnam instance difference happening white people inside europe , lots tv coverage reason , furthermore sides equal , would n't us racist americans favoring good christians \( serbs \) instead non christians really seem favor \? sides certainly equal eyes press 's go , n't \? wish 'd quit words like racist around many levels people react see fundamental level , consciously recognize racial element simply tend people like far preferring christian moslem , atheist , think 'll agree us , majority people typically discriminate basis religion , give particularly important place world view dave
dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) subject killer organization p center regional studies lines 95 article 1993apr21 doug cae wisc edu cae wisc edu \( \) responded article nic umass edu ucsvax ucs umass edu \( afs \) wrote afs quick comment afs afs armenians killed turks turks killed armenians afs afs simple anybody deny facts \? jews killed germans wwii germans killed jews wwii , quite difference two statements , regardless nazi revisionists say ! sy grand parents living partly todays armenia partly sy todays georgia villages , kurd turk \( different turkic groups \) sy georgian \( muslim christian \) armenian near sy people living aware differences sy different people example , grandfather would happy sy willed marry armenian guy sy mean willing kill ! neighbors ok sy armenians killed turks armenians \? \? far sy grandparents concerned , armenians attacked first sy armenians neighbors came places maybe sy first training place taught kill people , sy hate turks kurds \? seems certainly difference planned extermination armenians eastern turkey beginning 1915 , georgian conflicts late 1918 ! argument whether armenians ever killed collective existence , rather wholesale destruction anatolian armenians orders turkish government armenian georgian dispute disposition , lori , turkish third army evacuated region , cannot equated extermination anatolian armenians many armenians died area scramble occupy lands lack preparation winter months turkish genocide armenians nearly four years earlier , hundreds kilometers away ! sy anyway , killed raped turks muslim people sy around , people assumed killed us , raped , sy particular group people trained camps , maybe backed sy powerful states step , cannot explain sy people hate armenians n't follow , perhaps next paragraph shed light sy trying point \? first , least region , sy cannot blame turks kurds etc since self defense situation sy armenians , think , blame either since sy people started fire , easy undo facts sy people cannot trust easily difficult establish sy good relation based mutual respect trust nations sy different ethnic cultural religious backgrounds unfortunately sy easy start fire ! , fighting armenians 1918 19 little destruction armenians turkey interesting georgian leaders federation \( armenia , azerbaijan , georgia \) made special deals turkish generals pass tiflis way baku , return helping armenians militarily course , turkish troops marched across left caucasian armenia , many armenians went north population movement caused problems locals comparison events 4 years earlier eastern anatolia father 's mother 's family escaped nakhitchevan tiflis constantinople massachusetts sy grandparents people experience sy endure leave lands , sy ladies , old ladies , children killed forced sy witness ! young women put dirt face make sy ! n't want go graphic detail grandmother 's brother forced dress kurdish women , paste potato skins face look ugly turks would kill armenian young man sight family rather influential , local kurds helped escape late alive today sy may think sources biased biased sense sy experienced pain , course way sy said living peace neighbors sy become enemies \? david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org explain turkish troops p center regional studies armenian border , ca n't p box 382761 even explain 1915 \? cambridge , 02238 turkish mp , march 1992
tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) subject israel 's expansion ii nntp posting host orion oac uci edu organization university california , irvine lines 20 article 93111 225707pp3903a auvm american edu paul h pimentel pp3903a auvm american edu writes gives isreal right keep jeruseleum \? home muslim well jewish religion , among others heck , nobody ever mentions yitza k shamir forty terrorize westerners much way abdul nidal today seems isrealis nowhere arabs , theref ore right jerusaleum much isreal ownership rightly based worthiness would n't owners point \? understand , israel 's claim jerusalem based 1 \) possession , 2 \) absolutely central \( second , third \) role plays jewish identity tim clock ph graduate student tclock orion oac uci edu department politics society met tel \( 714 \) 8565361 fax \( 714 \) 8568441
nstramer supergas dazixco ingr com \( naftaly stramer \) subject israel 's expansion nntp posting host supergas reply nstramer dazixco ingr com organization intergraph electronics lines 34 article 18apr93 vm1 mcgill ca , b8ha000 b8ha musicb mcgill ca writes couple questions pro israeli lobby 1 \) israel 's occupation southern lebanon temporary \? mr stein working proof israel diverting water jordan river \( away lebanese territory \) yes long goverment force authority prevent terrorists attack israel 2 \) israel 's occupation west bank , gaza , golan temporary \? \( support \) , many settlers moved territories \? temporary , let 's hear sinai several big cities isreal gave back , peace agreement settlers obstacle withdrawal long combined real peace agreement arabs steve naftaly naftaly stramer intergraph electronics internet nstramer dazixco ingr com 6101 lookout road , suite voice \( 303 \) 581 2370 fax \( 303 \) 581 9972 boulder , co 80301 quality everybody 's job , 's everybody 's job watch
ohayon jcpltyo jcpl co jp \( tsiel ohayon \) subject u holocaust memorial museum costly dangerous mistake organization james capel pacific limited , tokyo japan lines 33 article bony1 bony com jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) writes article techbook techbook com dan gannon writes dg u holocaust memorial museum costly dangerous mistake dg theodore j o'keefe dg hard washington monument , within clear view jefferson dg memorial , easy stroll mall majestic lincoln memorial , dg arisen , hallowed territory united states dg america , costly dangerous mistake ground monument yet dg marks countless sacrifices achievements americans dg races creeds building defense nation , sits today dg massive costly , devoted contentious false dg version ordeal europe world war ii , non american dg members minority , sectarian group , deceptive guise dg tolerance , united states holocaust memorial museum begins propaganda dg campaign , financed american taxpayer , dg interests israel adherents america jake reading first paragraph , quick scan confirmed first jake impression bunch revisionist anti semitic hogwash jake , i'm really disappointed took whole paragraph see bunch revisionist anti semitic hogwash \) article title u holocaust memorial museum costly dangerous mistake enough ! \) tsiel 8 8 tsiel ohayon jcpl co jp receive e mail , please let employer may know soon possible , possible opinions , ! two percent zero almost nothing
nabil ariel yorku ca \( nabil \) subject dear mr ajami organization york university , toronto , canada lines 20 read today two articles dripping hate offence great deal people could find much matching hatred articles found self righteous kill name god people n't know everyone , reaction hatred calls newsgroup , reaction seen experienced learnt judge people say , rather try put place aspire understand feelings hope would able everyone , starting , could able understand feelings act manner would aspire everyone adopt thanks time nabil
tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) subject freedom u nntp posting host orion oac uci edu organization university california , irvine lines 30 article 1993apr25 virginia edu ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) writes started reading articles news group seems attempt members quiet members scare tactics believe one posting said postings one person forwarded server keeps file hope appropriate action might taken n't know guys america attempts curtail someones first amendment rights appreciated , let everyone speak mind regardless feel take fascistic repressive ideals back came would nice , rightly point inherent value freedom speech , discussion would also deal frequent abuses distortions freedom occur situations extremely vocal , usually radical , people drive people away , effectively stifle \( opposing \) views generally take clearly , purpose behind actions deprive others freedom speech overt covert coercion domination media form question freedom speech valued , would suggest sort problem alleviated \? particularly , controlled within structure newsgroups \? tim clock ph graduate student uci tel 714 , 8565361 department politics society fax 714 , 8568441 university california irvine home tel 714 , 8563446 irvine , ca 92717
jaa12 cunixa cc columbia edu \( john absood \) subject freedom u nntp posting host cunixa cc columbia edu reply jaa12 cunixa cc columbia edu \( john absood \) organization columbia university lines 25 dear mr beyer never wise confuse freedom speech freedom racism violent deragatory unfortunate many fail understand crucial distinction indeed , find latter absolute complete contradiction former racial tends create atmosphere intimidation certain individuals \( belong group target group \) feel ease liberty exercise fundamental freedom speech brand sanctioned freedom speech salam , john absood marlow ceased , sat apart , indistinct silent , pose meditating buddha nobody moved time offing barred black bank clouds , leading utter ends earth flowed sky seemed
clamen cs cmu edu \( stewart clamen \) subject binyamin netanyahu cnn tonight reply world std com 's message thu , 15 apr 1993 13 56 58 gmt originator clamen byron sp cs cmu edu nntp posting host byron sp cs cmu edu reply clamen cs cmu edu organization school computer science , carnegie mellon university lines 15 article world std com world std com \( martin kaye \) writes great interview benjamin netanyahu cnn larry king live \( 4 15 93 \) guy knows talking truely charismatic , articulate , intelligent , demonstrates real leadership qualities agree , wish liked politics stewart clamen internet clamen cs cmu edu school computer science uucp uunet ! clamen cs cmu edu carnegie mellon university phone 1 412 268 5000 forbes avenue fax 1 412 681 pittsburgh , pa 15213 , usa
ayr1 cunixa cc columbia edu \( amir rosenblatt \) subject legality jewish purchase \( israeli expansion lust \) nntp posting host cunixa cc columbia edu reply ayr1 cunixa cc columbia edu \( amir rosenblatt \) organization columbia university lines 69 article 1993apr16 bnr ca zbib bnr ca writes adam shostack writes sam zbib writes i'm surprised n't consider acquisition land jews arabs , purpose establishing exclusive state , hostile action leading war purpose establishing state , exclusive state state exclusive , would 400 000 arab citizens could please tell ethnic composition israel right formed , consider purchase land hostile action someone wants buy land , someone else willing sell , mutually agreeable price , commerce hostile action leading war one right mind would sell freedom dignity palestinians exception perhaps heard anti trust business world since debating legality commercial transaction , must use laws governing guidelines ethics transactions basic anti trust law says , purchase ibm stocks purpose investing , acquire large number shares intent controlling ibm make intentions clear clearly , jews purchased properties palastenians designs , buying dwelling real estate establishing bridgehead european jews palastenians sold properties jews old tradition arab hospitality multi ethnic multi religious society , accepting jews neighbours different , another religion plus paid fair market value , etc know victims international conspiracy \( i'm conspiracy theorist , one hard dismiss \) right , i'm going address point jewish national fund bought land , n't buy palestinians , , part , tenant farmers \( fallahin \) , living land owned wealthy arabs syria lebanon jnf offered premium deal , owners took advantage 's called commerce owners , however , made provisions worked , basically shafting selling land right blame , jews adam shostack adam das harvard edu sam zbib bell northern research bitnet internet zbib bnr ca voice \( 613 \) 763 fax \( 613 \) 763 2626 surface mail stop 162 , p box 3511 , station c , ottawa , canada , k1y 4h7 opinions one else 's amir
cosmo pro angmar alfalfa com \( frank benson \) subject argic organization utexas mail news gateway lines 6 nntp posting host cs utexas edu hey serdar man without brain , loser ! ! ! proline cosmo pro angmar internet cosmo pro angmar alfalfa com uucp uunet ! bu edu ! alphalpha ! pro angmar ! cosmo
cosmo pro angmar alfalfa com \( frank benson \) subject serdar organization utexas mail news gateway lines 5 nntp posting host cs utexas edu , retarded \? proline cosmo pro angmar internet cosmo pro angmar alfalfa com uucp uunet ! bu edu ! alphalpha ! pro angmar ! cosmo
cosmo pro angmar alfalfa com \( frank benson \) subject serdar organization utexas mail news gateway lines 5 nntp posting host cs utexas edu quite loser proline cosmo pro angmar internet cosmo pro angmar alfalfa com uucp uunet ! bu edu ! alphalpha ! pro angmar ! cosmo
cosmo pro angmar alfalfa com \( frank benson \) subject argic organization utexas mail news gateway lines 5 nntp posting host cs utexas edu definetly need shrink , loser ! proline cosmo pro angmar internet cosmo pro angmar alfalfa com uucp uunet ! bu edu ! alphalpha ! pro angmar ! cosmo
cosmo pro angmar alfalfa com \( frank benson \) subject serdar organization utexas mail news gateway lines 5 nntp posting host cs utexas edu go back school jerk proline cosmo pro angmar internet cosmo pro angmar alfalfa com uucp uunet ! bu edu ! alphalpha ! pro angmar ! cosmo
cosmo pro angmar alfalfa com \( frank benson \) subject serdar organization utexas mail news gateway lines 5 nntp posting host cs utexas edu stupid \? proline cosmo pro angmar internet cosmo pro angmar alfalfa com uucp uunet ! bu edu ! alphalpha ! pro angmar ! cosmo
cosmo pro angmar alfalfa com \( frank benson \) subject argic organization utexas mail news gateway lines 7 nntp posting host cs utexas edu brain damaged hate courses sick body like poison 's matter time fate sealed proline cosmo pro angmar internet cosmo pro angmar alfalfa com uucp uunet ! bu edu ! alphalpha ! pro angmar ! cosmo
waldo cybernet cse fau edu \( todd j dicker \) subject israel 's expansion ii organization cybernet bbs , boca raton , florida lines 21 ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) writes first never said holocaust said holocaust i'm ignorant holocaust know nazi germany people \( maybe including \) uh oh ! first sign argument without merit stating one 's qualifications area know something nazi germany , show n't , shut simple n't think suffering jews wwii justifies crimes commited israeli government attempt call civil liberterians like anti semetic appreciated jews suffered wwii , beloved perished tortured suffered second , name calling directed , civil libertarians general name dropping fancy sounding political term yet another attempt cite qualifications order obfuscate glaring argument go back minors , junior
nelson p apollo hp com \( peter nelson \) subject remember names come election time nntp posting host c ch apollo hp com organization hewlett packard corporation , chelmsford , keywords usa federal , government , international , non usa government lines 39 article 1 cs cmu edu anwar cs cmu edu \( anwar mohammed \) writes article c5u4qi mz4 apollo hp com nelson p apollo hp com \( peter nelson \) writes btw , bosnia 's large moslem population , nations like turkey , saudi arabia , syria , egypt , others either money strong military forces spoken forcibly offered help bosnia \? obviously , really n't know spoken \( cf state christopher 's recent trip \) , note clause forcibly , point made pro , remarks , sent c 130 's forth , 's clearly something 're losing much sleep 're going motions , moslems ethnically cleansed used yugoslavia us speaking far loudly moslem nations un world forums besides , 's case made us military involvement n't apply equally well , say , liberia , angola , \( appears khmer rouge 's new campaign \) cambodia non whites n't count \? hmm might say kuwaitis non white ooops , forgot , kuwaitis oil rich , loaded petro dollars , etc n't count precisely humanitarian concerns primary justification us involvement gulf oil kuwaitis n't oil \( assuming iraq still saw fit invade \) doubt would seen operation desert storm peter
pgf5 cunixb cc columbia edu \( peter garfiel freeman \) subject freedom u nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply pgf5 cunixb cc columbia edu \( peter garfiel freeman \) organization columbia university lines 30 article 1993apr25 virginia edu ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) writes n't know guys america attempts curtail someones first amendment rights appreciated , let everyone speak mind regardless feel take fascistic repressive ideals back came hey tough guy , freedom necessitates responsibility , freedom absolute btw , anyone defends arafat , read open fire new jewish immigrants , soviet union , ethiopia anywhere else give instructions use violence immigrants anyone refuses yassir arafat , al , 4 10 90 least 's racist ! anti jewish pete
jaa12 cunixa cc columbia edu \( john absood \) subject freedom u nntp posting host cunixa cc columbia edu reply jaa12 cunixa cc columbia edu \( john absood \) organization columbia university lines 14 mr freeman please find something constructive time rather engaging fantasy particular arafat anything john marlow ceased , sat apart , indistinct silent , pose meditating buddha nobody moved time offing barred black bank clouds , leading utter ends earth flowed sky seemed
nelson p apollo hp com \( peter nelson \) subject remember names come election time nntp posting host c ch apollo hp com organization hewlett packard corporation , chelmsford , keywords usa federal , government , international , non usa government lines 34 article 1 cs cmu edu anwar cs cmu edu \( anwar mohammed \) writes said article c5u4qi mz4 apollo hp com nelson p apollo hp com \( peter nelson \) writes besides , 's case made us military involvement n't apply equally well , say , liberia , angola , \( appears khmer rouge 's new campaign \) cambodia non whites n't count \? hmm might say kuwaitis non white ooops , forgot , kuwaitis oil rich , loaded petro dollars , etc n't count let 's forget somalia , far white gets somalia \? right across gulf aden arab nations planet \? us always become point man stuff \? n't mind us helping invariably happens everybody expects us work take risks , even events occuring people 's back yards , resources deal quite well , thank mean , 's like either serbia , somalia represent overwhelming military force neighbors ca n't handle logistics big deal 's lot bigger challenge get troops supplies new york somalia , saudi arabia harder go texas serbia , turkey austria serbia peter
ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) subject israel 's expansion ii organization university virginia lines 29 waldo cybernet cse fau edu writes ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) writes first never said holocaust said holocaust i'm ignorant holocaust know nazi germany people \( maybe including \) uh oh ! first sign argument without merit stating one 's qualifications area know something nazi germany , show n't , shut simple n't think suffering jews wwii justifies crimes commited israeli government attempt call civil liberterians like anti semetic appreciated jews suffered wwii , beloved perished tortured suffered second , name calling directed , civil libertarians general name dropping fancy sounding political term yet another attempt cite qualifications order obfuscate glaring argument go back minors , junior humans suffered emotionally , jews many others suffered physically sad people like blinded emotions ca n't see facts thanks calling names , assures kind ignorant people dealing included letter since thought demonstrated point anything could write
ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) subject freedom u organization university virginia lines 23 jaa12 cunixa cc columbia edu writes dear mr beyer never wise confuse freedom speech freedom racism violent deragatory unfortunate many fail understand crucial distinction fact , speach offensive , protection freedom speach laws would useless speach find questionable must protected , religiously blasphemous inherently racist civilized discourse scare tactics one enlighten one perceives ignorant idea behind freedom expression find offensive might perceived truth might find offensive might belief free exchange ideas \( insults case seems channel \) one change another 's erring ways jefferson said afraid tolerate error long reason left combat
avi duteinh et tudelft nl \( avi cohen stuart \) subject israel 's expansion ii originator avi duteinh et tudelft nl nntp posting host duteinh et tudelft nl organization delft university technology , dept electrical engineering lines 14 article 93111 225707pp3903a auvm american edu , paul h pimentel pp3903a auvm american edu gives isreal right keep jeruseleum \? home muslim well jewish religion , among others heck , nobody ever mentions yitza k shamir forty fifty years ago terrorize westerners much way abdul nidal today seems isrealis nowhere arabs , theref ore right jerusaleum much isreal one big difference israel arabs , christians respect israel allows freedom religion avi
center policy research cpr igc apc org subject gaza separation israel nf id n cdp 000 nf cdp uucp ! cpr apr 24 07 06 00 1993 lines 73 center policy research cpr subject gaza separation israel gaza idea separation israeli left 's inability cope challenges presented reality becomes obvious moments reality line expectations left able see clearly gulf war palestinian 's popular solidarity iraq , yossi sarid currently minister environment made infamous statement look ! , e , i'am making efforts speak yossi sarid 's point view , palestinian reality gulf war lengthy curfew danger hunger brought , whether palestinians accepted acceptable party similarly , mk , recently faced criticism residents west bank town government 's party 's lack action human rights peace , responded asking present discussion whether would rather likud government perspective best government government , regardless members israeli left already decided future occupied territories look , want dictate palestinians get essential step towards future participation yitzhak rabin 's government , point view marginal byproduct government peace , need disturb routine course events likewise policies gaza blowing houses anti tank rockets significant increases number persons injured suppression demonstrations need disturb fact reality would forces upon mob gaza falls upon settler lost way , settler stabbed palestinian workers , palestinian knifes people streets tel aviv hell breaks loose israeli left nothing propose except separation let 's cut palestinians , let 's build fence high wo n't able harm us cry israeli left let us erect fence us reality whith occupation writes ha'aretz \( 4 3 93 \) liberal left differentiate physical separation 'the future , must come understand regime magnetic cards , exclusion arab workers , closure , curfew instruments enforcement designed suppression population revolt , ideological support separation provides arguments status quo enforced separation carried meet need ruling community , ruled population bears burden thinks gaza liberal , humanitarian idea best contemplate question whether position also moral easy shake responsibility concentration human suffering , thus also disregard responsibility 's creation easy erect fence jewish arab neighborhoods jerusalem , fence gate keys disposal one hand opens allow jews pursue interests , barred arabs front , jerusalem , 10 march 1993
center policy research cpr igc apc org subject conf mideast levant nf id n cdp 000 1967 nf cdp uucp ! cpr apr 24 14 55 00 1993 lines 47 center policy research cpr subject conf mideast levant rights children violated state israel \( selected articles iv geneva convention 1949 \) article 31 physical moral coercion shall exercised protected persons , particular obtain information third parties article 32 high contracting parties specifically agree prohibited taking measure character cause physical suffering extermination protected persons hands prohibition applies murder , torture , punishment \( \) also measures brutality whether applied civilian military agents article 33 protected person may punished offence personally committed collective penalties likewise measures intimidation terrorism prohibited article 34 taking hostages prohibited article 49 individual mass transfers , well deportations protected persons occupied territory territory occupying power country , occupied , prohibited , regardless motive article 50 occupying power shall , cooperation national local authorities , facilitate proper working institutions devoted care education children article 53 destruction occupying power real personal property belonging individually collectively private persons , state , public authorities , social cooperative organizations , prohibited , except destruction rendered absolutely necessary military operations ps obvious violations articles also violations international convention rights child
center policy research cpr igc apc org subject assistance people nf id n cdp 000 nf cdp uucp ! cpr apr 24 15 00 00 1993 lines 78 center policy research cpr subject assistance people u n general assembly resolution 46 201 20 december 1991 assistance palestinian people general assembly resolution 45 183 21 december 1990 taking account palestinian people occupied palestinian territory israeli occupation , including israeli economic social policies practices , rejecting israeli restrictions external economic social assistance palestinian people occupied palestinian territory , concerned economic losses palestinian people result gulf crisis , aware increasing need provide economic social assistance palestinian people , palestinian people cannot develop national economy long israeli occupation persists , 1 takes note report secretary general assistance palestinian people 2 expresses appreciation states , united nations bodies non governmental organizations provided assistance palestinian people , 3 requests international community , united nations system non governmental organizations sustain increase assistance palestinian people , close cooperation palestine liberation organization \( plo \) , taking account economic losses palestinian people result gulf crisis 4 calls treatment transit basis palestinian exports imports passing neighbouring ports points exit entry 5 also calls granting trade concessions concrete measures palestinian exports basis palestinian certificates origin 6 calls immediate lifting israeli restrictions obstacles hindering implementation assistance projects united nations development programme , united nations bodies others providing economic social assistance palestinian people occupied palestinian territory 7 call implementation development projects occupied palestinian territory , including projects mentioned resolution 39 223 18 december 1984 8 calls establishment palestinian development banks occupied palestinian territory , view promoting investment , production , employment income therein 9 requests secretary general report general general assembly session , economic social council , progress made implementation present resolution favour 137 countries \( europe , canada , australia , new zealand , japan , africa , south america , central america asia \) united states israel none
center policy research cpr igc apc org subject h r violations israel arab st nf id n cdp 000 nf cdp uucp ! cpr apr 24 16 07 00 1993 lines 48 many ask whether approve severe human rights violations arab states focus israeli human rights violations let 's make things clear opposition h r violations arab states total without qualification arab state claim democratic arab state claims democratic born palestine \( israel \) family lack peace utter injustice home country affected life concerned palestine \( israel \) want peace come peace justice anybody legitimate claims towards arab states , present claims ask support jews left arab states fully entitled make claims , consider case merit basic right return countries , wish , complain compare palestinians struggling right return since israel established whose right upheld united nations quasi totally jews feel discriminated arab countries , legitimate claim decent person support human rights violations arab states n't justify , legitimate cause israeli international law human israeli stem zionist concept , implemented basic rights palestinians israeli palestinian rights symmetrical first party state none first occupier second occupied meaningful relationship emerge , symmetry must established long israelis jews n't realise necessity change perspective towards palestinian people long israelis jews n't want past towards palestinians \( 1948 , etc \) refuse acknowledge creation israel dependent upon removal palestinian arabs , base real trust read first time list 383 arab villages destroyed state israel 1948 , got shock hope others touched discovery think meaning massive destruction elias davidsson iceland
center policy research cpr igc apc org subject desertification negev nf id n cdp 000 nf cdp uucp ! cpr apr 25 05 25 00 1993 lines 104 center policy research cpr subject desertification negev desertification negev moise , p march 1990 negev bedouin 1948 ii jewish agricultural settlement negev iii development negev 's rural population iv economic situation jewish settlements 1990 v failure settling valley vi failure settling central mountains vii failure making negev \( cleansing negev \) viii bedouin low paid workers ix failure settling development towns x jordan water negev strategic asset xi negev becomes dumping ground xii nuclear plant negev military base xiv negev year 2000 creation state israel , phrase jewish pioneers make desert bloom trumpeted throughout western world six day war 1967 , david ben gurion declared letter charles de 's pioneering creation transformed poor land fertile land , created built areas , towns villages abandoned desert areas contrary ben gurion 's assertion , must affirmed 26 years british mandate palestine centuries previous , productive human presence found parts negev desert hills valleys southern negev well fertile north bedouin arabs real desertification negev , mainly southern part , occurred israel 's bedouin 's cultivated lands nowadays , majority 12 , 800 square kilometer negev , represents 62 percent state israel \( pre 1967 borders \) , beyond recognition main new occupiers formerly bedouin negev israeli army nature reserves authority , whose chief role prevent bedouin roaming former pasture lands vast industrial zones , including nuclear reactors dumping grounds chemical , nuclear wastes israeli jews negev today cultivate less half surface area cultivated bedouin 1948 , jewish pastoral activity agricultural pastoral activities negev bedouin 1948 1942 , according british mandatory statistics , sub district \( corresponds less israel 's negev , southern , district \) 52 , 000 inhabitants , almost bedouin arabs , held 11 , 500 , 6 , 000 cows , 42 , 000 sheep 22 , 000 goats majority bedouin lived less life north , ranged 200 350 mm per year 1944 cultivated 200 , 000 hectares district e 16 percent total area double area cultivated negev 's jewish settlers 40 years making desert bloom bedouin low crop yield 350 400 kilograms per rainy years farming techniques primitive , production based solely animal human labor must also animal production , although low , based entirely production increased considerably rainy years diminished significantly drought years bedouin pasture animals goats , sheep ability gain weight quickly relatively rainy winters withstand many days hot summers animals result centuries old process natural selection harsh local conditions creation state israel , 80 percent negev bedouin expelled sinai southern jordan 10 , 000 allowed remain confined territory 40 , 000 hectares region annual mean 150 mm quantity low enough ensure crop failure two years three rare water wells south central negev , spring life desert , prevent bedouin shepherds roaming bedouin shepherds allowed stay central negev 1982 , sinai returned egypt , bedouin also eliminated time , strong pressure applied bedouin abandon fields order land could transferred army reliable statistics exist concerning amount land held today negev bedouin known fact large part 40 , 000 hectares cultivated 1950s seized israeli authorities indeed , bedouin confined seven development towns , , established \( rest article available elias davidsson , email elias ismennt \)
center policy research cpr igc apc org subject zionism racism nf id n cdp 000 nf cdp uucp ! cpr apr 25 05 27 00 1993 lines 76 center policy research cpr subject zionism racism diaspora 'a julian lindsay jewish chronicle , london , 22 dec 1989 leading israeli author cultural commentator , b yehoshua , launched ferocious attack diaspora jewry zionist youth council meeting north london , last week diaspora , claimed , cancer connected main tissue jewish people failure act holocaust said diaspora 's religious secular leadership ignored warning signs 1920s , opposed zionism consequently , considered holocaust , failure judaism talk , entitled diaspora solution , covered 5 , 000 years jewish history mr yehoshua 's targets included soviet jews , said staying israel , running away , jews outside israel using people 's countries like hotels conclusion could draw diaspora immoral , looked israel identity lived elsewhere worse , threatened israel , creating distraction citizens , leaving thousands mr yehoshua , described soldier , ended calling creation new total jew , living israel earlier , speaking meeting jewish students difficulties forging national identity israeli literature , mr yehoshua claimed israeli writers paralyzed country 's political situation said israel 's wars provided writers vital source inspiration today , israeli writers avoided writing directly arab israeli conflict major work produced intifada instead , writers tackling themes jewish identity , israel personal family issues mr yehoshua admitted also felt unable write israeli political situation could longer step israeli arab 's shoes portray real flesh blood character claimed 40 years statehood , problem israeli identity solved said jews remained pre occupied borders identity jew non jew , concerned nature identity jewish values israel embraced every aspect daily life , unlike diaspora , jews responsibility country lived , said warned modern hebrew , unifying force jewish people , would struggle future , especially literary circles faced fierce competition english language
center policy research cpr igc apc org subject poem erich fried nf id n cdp 000 nf cdp uucp ! cpr apr 25 05 29 00 1993 lines 46 center policy research cpr subject poem erich fried poem german jewish poet erich fried \( holocaust survivor \) ein jude die 1988 von erich fried wollt ihr \? wollt ihr die die vor und \? wollt ihr die mit allen mit die sie \? wollt ihr die gestapo die wehrmacht die sa ss und aus den die \? aber ich ich vor als ein von ein jude mit zu ihr die und ich sie als menschen ihr land aus dem ihr sie dem ihr sie ihr ihr und der der auf immer das mit den vier das ihr nicht wollt aber ihr !
arf genesis mcs com \( jack schmidling \) subject u holocaust memorial museum costly dangerous mistake organization mcsnet contributor , chicago , il lines 19 nntp posting host localhost mcs com article bony1 bony com jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) writes private contributions federal land hate mongering article devoid current historical fact , intellectual content social value toilet goes know unbiased source nyt comes things concerning israel neither times trained seals responded thus far seem recognize statement private funds tax exmpt , american taxpayers put least 30 money , federal land mitigate offensiveness alien monument dedicated perpetuating continual flow tax money foreign entity \? federal land tax money could used americans better yet , house homeless americans
ohayon jcpltyo jcpl co jp \( tsiel ohayon \) subject israeli terrorism organization james capel pacific limited , tokyo japan lines 31 article 1rd7eo 1a4 usenet ins cwru edu anas omran writes anas many neutral human rights organizations always report anas situation , people used see tv , anas israelis allow go deep israelis anas used arrest sometimes kill neutral reporters anas , another kind terrorism committed jews palestine anas allow fair neutral coverage situation anas palestine bring one case israeli soldiers deliberately killed neutral reporter another one wet dreams unlike many countries , israel allow reporters problem israel country like china , nothing would happening seems proliferation journalists israel always trying show evil israeli monster arab countries n't allow journalists anywhere , yet hear massacres kurds , destruction annihilation hama , killings moslem fundamentalists mosques egypt algeria etc get state reports \? accurate \? anas , go give lesson freedom speech arab telling us tsiel 8 8 tsiel ohayon jcpl co jp receive e mail , please let employer may know soon possible , possible opinions , ! two percent zero almost nothing
dzk cs brown edu \( danny keren \) subject desertification negev organization brown university department computer science lines 12 nonsense lived negev many years say sure beduins moved harmed way contrary , standard living climbed sharply many live rather nice , permanent houses , cars quite students ben gurion university good , friendly relations rest population beduins met would rather surprised read mr davidson 's poster , say danny keren
dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) subject accounts anti armenian human right violations azerbaijan summary prelude current events nagorno karabakh organization p center regional studies lines 622 accounts anti armenian human right violations azerbaijan prelude current events nagorno karabakh saw naked girl hair dragging kept falling pushing kicking fell , muddy , later witnesses saw balconies told us , seized hair dragged couple blocks , far mortgage bank , 's good block half two know sure saw deposition \( \) born 1932 train conductor azerbaijani railroad resident building 13 15 , apartment 27 microdistrict 3 sumgait azerbaijan n't lived long sumgait , eight years moved son entered baku school , transferred azerbaijan later met someone married , name , husband 's name would massacre discussed openly , hints , speak , armenian people , russians , constantly aware work , past year could n't find definite place pool work , 'll say , could n't steal , could n't deceive , could n't involved bribe taking asked decent working conditions told , leave , n't keep others working , n't cut kind work work around time would hear armenians , like turks right , killed way 've multiplied 're making hard us live , things fine get rid problem , turks help , say , ask , 'll rid armenia armenians half hour well 's way , never thought , course would spill bloody tragedy , could n't imagine 've living soviet government 70 years , one even considered idea possible forming opinions , presence authoritative people would often ask , leading , people really see kind situation emerging russians fleeing sumgait , left one dealing , 's going \? happened 27th 28th , became clear everything arranged someone , else make first secretary city party committee marching ahead demonstration azerbaijani flag \? would n't saying n't received personal confirmation later guard sk club 1st , came club , muslimzade women told , , , 's muslimzade n't believe rumors carried azerbaijani flag thought false rumors went said , first secretary city party committee \? answers , yes ask , tell , really march ahead gang carrying azerbaijani flag , behind carrying signs , n't know exactly said , mention armenian blood \? tells , yes , , tried dissuade asked another question burning slaughtering us \? said , n't know , n't know , n't anticipate would happen sumgait comrade mamedov , first deputy chairman council ministers azerbaijani ssr , answered question , actually n't anticipate slaughter sumgait time trying contain crowd 45 , 000 baku preparing massacre exact words , ones said office council ministers armenian ssr , events course 's painful discuss , may seem 's true someone else various rumors concerning happened making rounds true , others n't unfortunately true ones false , horrible age , space age , age science , age progress , n't know , someone told story , living around moscow , would n't believed \? really genocide , massacre 's genuinely example , day , 28th n't know 27th husband sick , us flu , bed 28th neighbor comes place says , 're bed \? n't know anything \? demonstration town , armenian cars burning looking cars asking , armenian \? ' answered armenian , turned car burned n't made , wife senior investigator baku ministry internal affairs told us returning home dacha wife , raisa sevastyanova , 's neighbor immediately came told lis landed right middle , n't know call , automobiles stopping answered azerbaijani , let go , made honk horn , kicking n't even believe , said , certainly n't happen , \? said , muslimzade leading crowd , store completely smashed armenians saw started breaking glass store , said , n't break shop windows , n't destroy state property , whatever else want n't hear two ears , fact store torn director store beaten employing armenians although 's azerbaijani talking , sudden right across us sevastyanova first look window say , look , 's crowd sure enough , looked saw crowd already started wrecking neighboring building armenian family , woman two girls lived across us i'm sorry , n't know building number people 's names , since husband 's apartment , microdistrict 8 , lived microdistrict 3 awful looting going time , hideous things going one building , , attacked twice , n't enough returned places n't finished armenians azerbaijani family dared conceal armenians , beat azerbaijanis also beat russians , russians hiding russians among , said television , people various nationalities n't tell us people different nationalities would n't touched azerbaijanis n't dared stick armenians give temporary shelter homes time saw window , sevastyanova , husband went onto balcony saw television fly balcony kinds things , even sofa , , burned saw crowd , first could n't figure happening later told husband , , l think 're beating someone answered , n't know , could suddenly crowd separated moment , saw , raisa sevastyanova saw husband turned way , n't see saw naked girl hair dragging kept falling pushing kicking fell , muddy , later witnesses saw balconies told us , seized hair dragged couple blocks , far mortgage bank , 's good block half two know sure saw crowd rushed toward building standing , course imagine feeling going kill us \? also awful thought might torment way tormented woman , seen asked husband gave axe said , kill first , let want corpse neighbors , 's true , defended us , said , n't armenians entryway , go away , muslims live disaster missed us time two o'clock morning crowd 15 people , approximately , came back place husband already asleep sleep 's upset something , ca n't standing , running balcony balcony power , n't remember long , though deliberately turned lights whatsoever , glad , course thought better way look crowd balcony 2 15 morning first time building 6 30 , 2 15 morning never thought old woman first floor , azerbaijani , awake watching , human beings among goes garbage , though needed taking garbage two o'clock morning used pretext went toward young people really youngsters balcony could see perfectly young azerbaijani boys spoke azerbaijani came said , want \? answered , want armenian family lives pointing toward second floor hands says , already told , n't armenians , leave , hear , old muslim woman talking , grabbed hand one boy trying walk around enter building anyway started pushing away seemed listen young , started apologizing left second time death door forgot mention one apartment , man named lives , n't know really , knew daughter , mean saw around , really n't know know guy lives fourth floor across entryway went worked eight months , earn money imagine means \? risked life earn x amount money order better family bought new furniture getting ready give daughter 's hand marriage , , alas , everything ruined threw everything windows , rest saw balcony neighbors left right ran apartment carried everything n't already smashed taken one think \? means parents families unfortunately came opinion organized everything foreseen advance beating armenians stripping apartments something order 'll move armenians take apartments worked honestly whole life , check everything came patriot china , waited nights end front consulate general ussr , came homeland patriot knew party komsomol holy things saw sumgait n't anything holy , party membership bought , komsomol members joined personal gain , ideals , ideas , god save , everything bought sold , saw understood could allow crap go like ca n't talk image beating went apartment picked us soviet army guard , arrived suppress gang armenians , russian families children , , came apartments joined us , normal person seen could stay situation way 's interesting left buses rode thought least one group people , sure people would basically rise situation , would compassion armenians , would somehow understand injustice done analyzed weighed whole thing , calmed , thought , came conclusion shared many people lot azerbaijanis n't want armenian neighbors killed , basically depended muslimzade said wanted calm possible n't people hand could last minute , go announce television citizens sumgait ! take hands , let 's protect neighbors massacre \? crowds n't controlling basically unarmed n't firearms , mostly knives , kinds metal parts , like armature shafts , ends , special rocks , different degree noticed n't rocks like sumgait , brought somewhere , though specially planned saying , weighed neighbors wanted defend us , n't arranged \? means government n't want crowd moving city party committee , , way informing baku \? , way , turns ! crowd violence microdistrict wo n't mention things n't see , 'll talk things witnessed microdistrict 8 beginning 6 o'clock evening , saw building , somewhere else mid night one o'clock morning , 2 15 came back building n't completely finished making rounds microdistrict 8 returned building told husband , , police probably going come , god , authorities probably going find come aid well , alas , , authorities , single policeman , single , single ambulance came raging , turns , later found , beginning might 27th dead people , ruined apartments , burned autos one car near bus station , burned overturned , probably four days , everyone saw went block 45 ! live know , saw balconies attacked soldiers buses , beat poor , unarmed soldiers , square , ca n't remember name , fork coming bus station , intersection , i'm upset ca n't think name 's tall building , 9 story , balconies people saw butchery , poor soldiers , wearing helmets , shields unfortunate clubs , moved mob fell , 12 14 year old boys ran using stones , big heavy stones , beat death heads could guessed something like could happen soviet union soviet government \? upshot republic soviet control long time , one wanted pay attention get involved go ask work many people would confirm tell truth , 've struggling truth five years already , five years worked azerbaijani railroad people considered demagogue , others knows think i'm adventure seeker , , wanted everything right , would become outraged , people treat one another way soviet railroad , though azerbaijani railroad azerbaijani property , property , mafia want , 'll get want , 'll get rid want , 'll something else \? 's black market price everything , way coach moscow costs much , coach local train costs much complaining head conductor 's pool , nerve tell , maybe wo n't even believe , , i'm afraid , heard ears , long fight something know never effect \? 're alone everyone , instead n't give money chief conductor , everything go fine started cry , turned , left else could , else could go complain \? realized everything useless root whole thing goes one wants see filed written complaint , ground dust , destroyed , still copy , 's use \? general procuracy got involved investigation bloody sumgait affair , addition information saw , witness , gave testimony mafia railroad accepted petition , n't know 're going pursue , 'll excuse , longer believe things , things believed 's dead spit soul , everything , physically , important , spiritually , lose belongings , 's nonsense , comes time , soul spit upon best beliefs destroyed , difficult restore want tell one incident n't know , time state n't even take minor things account example course , 's minor one neighbor , raisa sevastyanova , son , valery , 9th grade school microdistrict 8 boy , danielian , n't know last name , goes school , rather , went school sitting apartment trying make phone call moscow oh yes , 's one important detail massacre began , two three hours phones n't working armenian apartments , later , several russian azerbaijani apartments fact matter service shut , could call anywhere \? , means planned come service cut reason \? lights went raging liked n't afraid , ran freely , one would slap hands one would dare stop knew i'm going tell incident little , vitalik , armenian boy , went school valery class according valery neighbor pal said time apartment , sat phone waiting call put mob attacked building vitalik lived valery ran mother said , mamma , please let go vitalik 's , kill \? maybe 's still alive , maybe bring save somehow 's nice guy , like , 's good person , 's smart mother would n't let go tears , says , valery , ca n't go afraid says , mamma , get around crowd 'll watch , look made n't know , think vitalik 's parents lived microdistrict 1 , got , made superficial deduction knowing balconies doors broken everywhere , could see street armenian apartments building , went looked , saw windows intact , calmed even though windows apartment broken , everything inside totally smashed , vitalik lay broken skull , mother father already murdered little vitalik n't even know dead two weeks ago , n't know , critical condition , , maybe longer left sumgait march 20 , spent time moscow , came yerevan 's month already 's hard keep straight valery , next day , found vitalik 's family killed vitalik ling hospital baku , valery classmates got together went visit would n't admit , telling critical condition still coma cried left , also found girl saw kicked dragged hospital turns brought serious condition , least alive time got sk club would see first one friend another , throw arms kiss , wondered friends alive , friends alive saw glad find family lived ! saw people heard things made hair stand end publish everything happened hideous book book things even difficult believe two girls raped entirely black blue , ones sk , know i'm lying , girlfriend came one said , happened \? breasts , completely covered cigarette burns put cigarettes breasts something like n't know live city look people stayed military unit , provided , well , basic conditions us military unit located , six miles sumgait living met larger group people 1 , 600 people unit know , point could n't even go outside went outside saw much around hear false rumors yes , way , false rumors spread sumgait saying armenians around yerevan destroyed azerbaijani villages razed ground bulldozers n't know whether believe people n't know better get idea done revenge arrived armenia , villages intact , time even protected case , guarded , got better food inhabitants single person died , one planning harm around yerevan villages safe unharmed , armenians n't attack anyone actually , evil magnitude suffered sumgait could feeling , one acted n't know sometimes hear accusations effect armenians guilty , organized rumors like spread azerbaijan one old person says ten young ones hear , perceive minds , hearts , seems older person telling truth example , one says know 31 people killed \( way , originally said 31 people , later found \) , 30 azerbaijani one armenian \? course i'm upset , 's utterly impossible discuss things become upset sometimes l forget things , know want return time sk club across city party committee saw muslimzade sk club building went ask could n't believe marched front carrying banner already mentioned , repeat anything , please excuse asked , , come \? laugh women floor \? tremendous , completely , several children already sick 's true troops tried make us cooked us field stoves provided us wonderful food , thing main job ferret gang still everywhere , continuing affairs everywhere plus never given direct orders , n't know authorized march 8 five o'clock evening , lieutenant general , city sumgait , given full authority told everyone microphone armored personnel carrier could wanted , heart advised , people military unit 's want talk muslimzade , , tried get sk building take city party committee , across square club took hand said , citizen , n't worry , 'll go talk office told , , everything 've done , n't believe one iota say go city party committee 'll disappear , traces disappear ca n't stand oh yes , another interesting detail meeting even funny , although time n't laughing nice , expensive hat , put shame , speak , said , oh , come like london dandy , smell good , 're shirt , expensive hat came ridicule poor women children lying floor , already getting sick , whose relatives died come laugh \? one accompanying , azerbaijani , n't know title , quickly snatched hat muslimzade 's head hid said , god ! 're marauders 're ! n't come intention stealing ! well kill , kill ! muslimzade says , i'm guilty kill , kill , i'm guilty say , ok , fine , 're guilty , way give us answer , 're asking torturing raping poor women , killing children , burning things , carrying outrageously , wrecking apartments \? \? know , n't expect , know , n't anticipate something like would happen sumgait started laughing said , 's truly funny says , could \? n't know say , i'm sorry , 'll ridiculous tell first secretary city party committee n't march front banner fall gang would cross dead body 's done 's way war single party committee secretary compromised either died led people battle \? ran away , left , hid , marched flag , afraid , excuse language , feared damned hide ask , tell us got confused ask could done \? 's right , told , city party committee got confused , party committees got confused , police got confused , baku got confused , lay faint two weeks , gang ran show impunity n't troops would n't two days , would n't single armenian left sumgait sure , would finished bloody affair , went russians , , ones tried say something , told , 'as soon finish armenians 'll come , way , colonel , took us military unit one light blue collar tabs flew two hours later arrived armored personnel carrier sk took us military unit later started moving us military unit asked , \? \? come us \? openly said , know , us main thing catch gang 'll finish quickly 'll stay military unit time , 'll decide later general procuracy ussr arrived , consists investigators cities stavropol , everywhere , everywhere , affair truly frightful , way , comrade spoke everyone knows , 's first deputy general procurator ussr gave us speech armored personnel carrier military unit , way , told us honest truth , could n't say , still experiencing first impressions seen , said , afghanistan bad , sumgait 's horrible ! people dared thing severely punished , accordance laws 's quote one mother throws two sons died eyes says , return sons \? going punish \? tried calm , said , order us conduct proper investigation , order single scoundrel avoid responsibility , must help us , n't know , maybe someone else gang concealed homes , maybe neighbors know , maybe someone saw something n't afraid , write detail 're afraid everyone knows many afraid , lived horrors , think write whole truth , let 's say , neighbor someone else , seek revenge later 're going like 're going set urn throw write n't need know wrote names people write wo n't made public , need information let every one afraid , let write necessary , saw gang , made threats shouted threatening armenians must describe people put information urn two soldiers major guarded urn , sure enough , many people , people n't even want write know one woman asked , came said , , russian , thing wo n't happen happen please 'll give information , please write afraid , lot like later , made speech , sat wrote everything knew threw urn n't know use factual picture emerge information one person lie , thousands ca n't lie , thousands simply ca n't lie agree , fact fact , example , someone say black white really black \? first deputy chairman council ministers azerbaijani ssr , mamedov , said , yerevan husband council ministers armenian ssr found mamedov present , one come convince people sumgait return previous dwellings , old apartments asked meeting , granted went see tried behave properly , politely , , truth told right face asked questions asked muslimzade , personally beating us \? 're trying convince us return , n't think time slaughtering us leading \? says , 're telling truth let 's words 've told right face , 'll tell straight 'll tell pure truth gotten bed evening , whole government , including , restraining crowd 45 , 000 baku never expected city like sumgait , fine international record , thing could happen expected baku say , means expected \? expecting \? says , know , happened way expecting baku , trying restrain , sumgait say , fine , n't know first three four hours , known one help us \? says , well , ok , n't know things like basically story got muslimzade later , said , go back , situation sumgait favorable , everything fine , armenians friendly azerbaijanis l answered , know i'm speaking member neutral nation never argued armenians azerbaijanis eyewitness tell , please , comrade mamedov , asked , would say honestly , completely frank us \? said , yes , admit honestly ashamed , shame entire azerbaijani nation , entire soviet union , whole world voice america foreign radio stations various hues us kinds rumors , say , 's nothing add really happened n't think 's possible add anything awful says , yes , agree , understand pain , truly unfortunate occurrence repeat said unfortunate occurrence suddenly remembered , saying pen hands , said , oh , excuse , tragedy , really take mean really thinks 's unfortunate occurrence course , says , understand gone ca n't return sumgait , 's necessary cool realize people tried even gave detail , , n't know matters , 160 policemen tried specifically relation bloody affair yes , way , another good detail , set work baku events went plant , azerbaijani working , suddenly tells , , n't nail husband \? screwed , n't imagined anyone baku , , could say something like well went see office , needed find days , going happen , going put days february 29 march 10 administrator told , n't know , , go head pool grateful n't put absence really discouraged know hair away death barely survived , 're telling skipping work , though enjoying somewhere went office chief pool , last name rasulov , 's position many years incidentally , 's party member , big man town suddenly , went said , comrade rasulov , way looked said , knows previous last name get wrapped mess \? say , mean , get wrapped mess \? husband 's armenian , tell , armenian last name screwed face , made kind , though eaten something sour , said , n't expect would mean \? behave , chief pool , man 1 , 700 workers \? , 's true , reduction , sure still 1 , 200 conductors working someone staff size says things like , expect simple , uneducated , politically unsophisticated person \? ! 's going believe rumors , armenians like , armenians like , way , mamedov i'm going back mamedov 's office asked really going guarantee safety lives return sumgait \? answered , yes , know , would guarantee n't want take much , would guarantee firmly 50 years wo n't guarantee longer 50 years say , 've got another thing like planned 50 years \? 'll quiet another 50 years 'll happen \? ! could n't contain , also told , get point , certainly knew , treating russians , example , baku sumgait , jobs \? certainly received complaints , wrote one respond \? everyone ignore going \? n't prepare people way treated \? says , know , 're finally starting insult ! threw pen desk maybe 'll say i'm scoundrel \? say , know , i'm talking n't know ones know say conviction , yes , comrade involved , , , know certain well anyway assured us , yerevan , false rumors , 3 , 000 sumgait armenians , 15 , 000 sumgait gotten back work everyone working , said , life good drove town , comrade first secretary communist party armenia ssr came council ministers armenian , came brought information showing everything fine sumgait asked mamedov reached conclusion said , ' well , walked street said , walking street city , even go new york , would never understand situation would guest , n't contact people , spend 10 days among blue collar workers way n't know first deputy chairman council ministers , 'd hear something quite different told , example , drew conclusion left military unit look apartments took us turns pick things , since people fled military unit got bus save soon possible neighbors microdistrict , view us , think \? thought maybe fact n't something general , mass nature , anti national something bus took us building , bus , going apartment , armed soldier accompanied us say \? speaks fact everything fine , need soldiers go come back us , going apartment apartment \? fact , especially young people , could sense delight misfortune , grins , making comments , presence troops , police armored personnel carriers tanks passing people taking malicious delight situation like , going like withdraw protection city altogether \? outrages , course , perhaps organized , alleys april 20 , 1988 yerevan reference 1 sumgait tragedy pogroms armenians soviet azerbaijan , volume , eyewitness accounts , edited samuel shahmuradian , forward yelena bonner , 1990 , published aristide caratzas , ny , pages 166 177 david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org explain turkish troops p center regional studies armenian border , ca n't p box 382761 even explain 1915 \? cambridge , 02238 turkish mp , march 1992
pgf5 cunixb cc columbia edu \( peter garfiel freeman \) subject absood nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu organization columbia university lines 11 fellow , must ask , say engage fantasies \? arafat terrorist , happens lot pull among palestinians ignore two facts \? doubt peace , roar lion roar , , pete
astein nysernet org \( alan stein \) subject freedom u organization nysernet , inc lines 23 ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) writes started reading articles news group seems attempt members quiet members scare tactics believe one posting said postings one person forwarded server keeps file hope appropriate action might taken n't know guys america attempts curtail someones first amendment rights appreciated , let everyone speak mind regardless feel take fascistic repressive ideals back came freedom speech mean others compelled give one means speak publicly systems regulations prohibiting dissemination racist bigoted messages accounts issue apparently , 's case virginia edu , since still posting alan h stein astein israel nysernet org
pgf5 cunixb cc columbia edu \( peter garfiel freeman \) subject argic nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply pgf5 cunixb cc columbia edu \( peter garfiel freeman \) organization columbia university lines 13 article pro angmar alfalfa com cosmo pro angmar alfalfa com \( frank benson \) writes definetly need shrink , loser ! hey , stop sending messages guy 's going read cares anyway \?
ellis uchicago edu \( boucher murphy \( ask \? \) \) subject u holocaust memorial museum costly dangerous mistake reply midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 21 article smith minerva harvard edu steven smith writes dgannon techbook techbook com \( dan gannon \) writes u holocaust memorial museum costly dangerous mistake theodore j o'keefe holocaust revisionism theodore j o'keefe editor institute historical review educated harvard university according 1990 harvard alumni directory , mr o'keefe failed graduate may decide indeed educated anywhere \( forgive inaccuracies , deleted original post \) n't person wrote book , canada years back \? peg
perlman qso colorado edu \( eric perlman \) subject spied keywords hypocritical pig nntp posting host qso colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 49 article 1 cs cmu edu anwar cs cmu edu \( anwar mohammed \) writes article news cso uiuc edu eshneken ux4 cso uiuc edu \( edward shnekendorf \) writes anwar cs cmu edu \( anwar mohammed \) writes article 4815 bimacs bitnet ehrlich bimacs bitnet \( gideon ehrlich \) writes readers forum seemed interested contents files nice yigal tell us 1 american authorities consider yigal arens dangerous \? adl authorities seem view lot people dangerous , including millions americans arab ancestry perhaps answer question adl maintained files spied adc members california \( elsewhere \? \? \) \? friendly rivalry perhaps \? come ! arabs sympathetic palestinian war israel adl monitors arab organizations reason us monitored communist organizations soviet nationals years ago adc organization arab americans let see 're saying arab americans spied \? 're also saying arab americans views national security threat israel \( us , imply reference wtc bombing , arab americans involved \) \? inference , assume think anyone arab lineage anywhere world poses threat israel , therefore , spied \? like , edward , anwar good , valid point obviously , presenting , \( quite legitimately deliberately \) takes point view extreme might intended , one best ways demonstrate slippery slope type argument , believe aim frankly believe adl proved innocent case doubt 's enough evidence weigh even civil court , preponderance evidence , evidence beyond reasonable doubt , standard winning case , however , prevent seeing merit anwar 's point rest deleted sad see model decorum tranquillity become like sport battleground rival ideologies slug glee tim rice , chess eric perlman perlman qso colorado edu center astrophysics space astronomy , university colorado , boulder
adams bellini berkeley edu \( adam l schwartz \) subject israel 's expansion ii nntp posting host bellini berkeley edu organization u c berkeley erl lines 9 article 93111 225707pp3903a auvm american edu paul h pimentel pp3903a auvm american edu writes gives isreal right keep jeruseleum \? home muslim well jewish religion , among others heck , nobody ever mentions yitza k shamir forty fifty years ago terrorize westerners much way abdul nidal today seems isrealis nowhere arabs , theref ore right jerusaleum much isreal gives united states right keep washington c \?
ohayon jcpltyo jcpl co jp \( tsiel ohayon \) subject hamza organization james capel pacific limited , tokyo japan lines 18 hamza answers one articles indeed israeli soldiers killed hamas mujahid anti tank missile i'm almost sure terrorist zionists would able cut body probably desintegrated missile hamza maybe missile n't hit directly body hamza gets desintegrated course , destroying 10 houses hamza kill someone surgical operation , \? well done hamza edited answer anas omran , took everything context replied way wanted really understand peace process making progress guys ai n't listening , babbling away old rhetoric tsiel
arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \( ken arromdee \) subject american jewish congress open letter clinton organization johns hopkins university cs dept lines 46 article vxcrna cern ch casper vxcrna cern ch \( casper , davi ppe \) writes said fixation bosnia due european country , rather third world recall , anything somalia , \( apparent \) left wingers saying reason everyone willing send troops bosnia somalia third americans consider unworthy help suddenly shut us decided send troops opposite place predicted theory staunch republican , btw irony arguing military intervention arguments based vietnam escaped opposed us intervention somalia reasons , although clearly nearly risky based reasons \? mean opposed us intervention somalia since somalia european country instead third world , desire help somalia racist \? n't think reason applies somalia whole point somalia third world country , willing send troops bosnia exactly opposite fixation european countries theory would predict \( similarly , desire help muslims fought christians also exactly opposite theory predicts \) matter , theory suggests americans want help serbs , 're christian , muslims desire intervene bosnia based racism people less like us , everyone want help side less like us \? especially sides equal seem think \? well , one thing remember , press likes good story good business , n't know btw , everyone wants help side less like us i'm referring people want help , course n't see people sending press releases help bosnian serbs ethnic cleansing ! muslim presence balkans eliminated ! \( well , except serbs , admit desire serbs america help serbian side probably people like \) first day christmas truelove served leftover turkey ! second day christmas truelove served turkey casserole made leftover turkey days 3 4 deleted flaming turkey wings ! pizza hut commercial \( tlu gic bait \) ken arromdee \( arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \)
terziogl ee rochester edu \( esin terzioglu \) subject armenia says could shoot turkish planes organization univ rochester , college engineering applied science lines 21 article 1993apr20 164517 20876 kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes esin terzioglu ignorance obvious posting esin terzioglu 1 \) cyprus independent country turkish greek inhabitants \( greek island like ignorant posting claims \) esin terzioglu 2 \) name cyprus \( english \) esin terzioglu next time read learn post aside spelling , turks want admit past mistakes \? know turkish invasion cyprus mistake bad u n anything may ask mistake \? yes , would say greeks invade cyprus \? greeks try invade cyprus turkish intervention failed info esin
dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) subject seventh century armenian math problems keywords philosphy , greece , persians , math organization p center regional studies lines 366 quantum magazine , march april 1993 pages 42 46 problem book anania shirak ancient peak ararat centuries come like seconds passed yuri years ago journalists interviewing celebrities liked ask books would take go space flight \? though number books allowed trip varied 10 30 , depending type spacecraft interviewer , celebrities people varied tastes , ages , professions , one dared say would want take least one book arithmetic problems people certainly excluded kind literature trained humanities nothing scorn numbers \( though secretly afraid \) others clear puzzle books masters difficult branches modern mathematics n't mind saying world hear n't know solve mere arithmetic problems professional mathematicians exception 's russian mathematician alexander , specialist statistics , wrote arithmetic willingly confess time fifth asked help solve arithmetic problem , hard work , sometimes failed completely course , like friends , could easily solve problem natural algebraic route constructing equations sets equations supposed avoid using algebraic analysis costs ! way , 's fact well known oft repeated , rule , neither high school graduates , students teaching colleges , teachers beginning careers \( , must add , scientific researchers \) solve arithmetic problems seems people world able solve fifth grade teachers , i'm insisting book arithmetic problems included anyone flying space sense justice recommend one particular problem book , one satisfy taste supply food thought sufficient relatively short flight moon extended space voyage say , venus back one road took books brought road kingsley glanced royal astronomer 's book saw bright cover group shooting revolvers god knows kind stuff leads , thought kingsley royal astronomer looked kingsley 's book saw history herodotus good lord , next 'll reading , thought royal astronomer fred , black cloud book i'm talking n't big , 24 problems constitute 24 elegant seventh century armenia naive wise time , rich striking detail bright period , problems reminiscent famous monument armenian architecture , church island lake van \( turkey inseparable image armenia elegant letters armenian alphabet , invented , songs , paintings edition incredibly beautiful problems long bibliographic rarity published title problems solutions vardapet 1 anania shirak , armenian mathematician seventh century \( translated published orbeli , , 1918 \) abundance close observations wide ranging information way life customs remote epoch anania shirak lived worked actually rendered disservice problem book many years book known researchers humanities specialists armenian history guarded treasure would n't let anyone see even , research k p , learned monk father , j orbeli , , v k , others brought works anania shirak light scholarly circles , general reader remains ignorant existence remarkable problem book vardapet anania shirak fell love art calculation , thought philosophical notion constructed without number , considering mother wisdom anania shirak among ancient armenian thinkers , vardapet anania shirak stands breadth interests unique mathematical orientation work works preserved addition problems solutions , following tracts found special place estimation scholars weights measures , theory , armenian geography seventh century \( authorship last work long attributed another outstanding thinker ancient armenia , \) autobiography , anania shirak say , anania shirak , studied science armenian land learned holy scripture intimately , expression psalmist , every day illuminated eyes mind feeling lacking art calculation , came conclusion fruitless study philosophy , mother sciences , without number could find armenia neither man versed philosophy books explained sciences therefore went greece met man named well versed ecclesiastical works told forth armenia 2 lived famous mathematician , went person spent six months soon noticed master science certain fragmentary facts went constantinople , met acquaintances told go far , much closer us , trebizon , coast pontus 3 lives byzantine vardapet tyukhik full wisdom , known kings , knows armenian literature asked knew answered saw many people traveled long distances become learned man indeed patriarchate constantinople , , traveled us , bringing many young persons become tyukhik heard , expressed gratitude god , thirst slave went tyukhik st eugene explained come received graciously said praise lord sent learn transplant science domain st gregory glad country learn lived armenia many years youth ignorance vardapet tyukhik loved son shared thoughts lord bestowed upon blessing completely assimilated science number , success fellow students king 's court began envy spent eight years tyukhik studied many books translated language vardapet collection books secret explicit , ecclesiastical pagan , books art , history , medicine , books title \? word , book tyukhik gift holy spirit translating sat translate something greek armenian , struggle translators , translation read work written language originally tyukhik told achieved vast learned armenian language young , said , lived trebizon , court military chief , long time , throne served military man armenia learned language literature one attack persian troops greeks , wounded escaped antioch lost possessions praying lord heal wounds , made promise prolong life , shall dedicate collecting knowledge lord heard prayers recovered went jerusalem , alexandria rome upon returning constantinople , met famous philosopher athens studied many years returned homeland began teach instruct people years philosopher died finding replacement , king sent tyukhik invited assume teacher 's position tyukhik , citing promise made god move far city , turned offer wide leaning , people came streaming countries study , insignificant armenians , learned powerful science , desired kings , brought country , supported one , obligated industry , god 's help , prayers blessed educator one efforts problems solutions half one sixth one nine ninth books printed one fifth one two hundred eighty fifth rag paper one forty fifth one eight hundred fifty fifth , forty five copies dutch paper , find many copies printed imitation anania shirak latin proverb says \( books fate \) fate problems solutions anania shirak quite amazing manuscripts anania 's book preserved , according armenian historians , ancient medieval armenia manuscripts guarded invaders , like weapons , , like one 's children time , manuscripts lay , renowned ancient manuscripts \( institute ancient manuscripts \) hour finally arrived 1896 learned monk father used two manuscripts publish problem book , introduction commentary 1918 book translated russian , edited , , iosef orbeli , prominent scholar \( later member academy sciences ussr \) translator 's words , problems anania amusing , full life , simple orbeli goes say subjects problems generally taken everyday life scene predominantly homeland shirak surrounding countryside , , named , local princes , including , contemporary anania like ancient authors , anania shirak used , fractions 1 necessary write fractions 1 , one represent sum \( see epigraph \) like true work art , problems anania suffer terribly read originals \( albeit translation \) full glory let 's open anania 's problem book gift across ages problems 1 8 relate armenian uprising persians 572 problem 1 father told following story famous wars armenians persians , prince zaurak kamsarakan performed extraordinary heroic deeds three times single month attacked persian troops first time , struck half persian army second time , pursuing persians , slaughtered one fourth soldiers third time , destroyed one eleventh persian army persians still alive , numbering two hundred eighty , fled nakhichevan , remainder , find many persian soldiers massacre problem 8 famous armenian uprising persians , zaurak kamsarakan killed , one armenian 4 sent envoy persian king report news envoy covered fifty miles day fifteen days later , learned , zaurak kamsarakan sent riders pursuit bring envoy back riders covered eighty miles day , find many days took catch envoy problem 18 mentions vessels made varying amounts metal russian translation , called dishes original armenian , according orbeli 's note , dishes first second instances called mesur , third instance common armenian word , mesur encountered armenian literature anania 's problems solutions problem 18 tray house melted made vessels metal one third made mesur one fourth , another mesur one fifth , two one sixth , two two hundred ten , made bowl , find weight tray several problems reflect caucasian anania 's time instance , problem 7 problem 7 , capital along bank river , saw school fish ordered net cast caught half quarter school , fishes slipped net ended looked , found forty five fishes , find many fishes temptation great present 24 problems 'll restrain offer one problem 20 provides interesting information wild animals inhabited armenia one time long mention even reference books wild donkey , according generally accepted view , never armenian lands yet anania shirak offers evidence contrary problem 20 hunting preserve kamsarakan , ter 5 shirak , base mountain called artin one night great herds wild donkey entered preserve hunters could cope , running village , told arrived brothers entered preserve , began killing wild beasts half animals caught traps , one fourth killed arrows young , constituted one animals , caught alive , three hundred sixty wild killed , find many beasts start massacre set type , iosef orbeli biography could squeezed framework bibliography k , iosef orbeli anyone lucky enough hold copy \( 1 n small printing n solution epigraph previous section \) russian translation anania shirak 's problems solutions , thin book pages , probably noticed variety fonts , borders , high quality design , printing , binding great attention detail characteristic works fulfill requirement degree problem book indeed kind diploma professional maturity man created advertisement end book reads book december 1917 printing offices russian academy sciences , iosef orbeli text also , laid , borders various circumstances prevented carrying project end final pages book typesetting neither first profession renowned iosef orbeli , later became director museum also orbeli already become acquainted famous academic printing house , founded known scientific world rich collection fonts preparing publish corpus ancient inscriptions preserved walls armenian churches , orbeli found necessary create new font would preserve unique signs complicated work done g \( unfortunately entire set letters destroyed blockade world war ii \) orbeli came printing offices academy sciences , times hard way publish newly translated problems anania orbeli learn typesetting \( always attracted printer 's craft \) 1922 orbeli became director printing academy sciences even retired , remained champion russian academic back earth book definition exhaust important works domain editor hopes guilty incompleteness read lines , stung shame , work , collection like , least monograph v introduction russian translation solid body symmetry r knox gold let 's imagine time space flight everyday thing , high spend breaks astronauts training crater far side moon maybe one space travelers take copy quantum , another , looking shoulder , read article say anania shirak seems like pretty interesting guy get home 'll try find problems good luck , young friend ! anania sure entertain perhaps n copies problems solutions hope printed created iosef orbeli 1 vardapet \( \) means teacher learned man armenian \( armenian language suffers english dual scheme thus , often rendered , , \) 2 fourth armenia one fifteen provinces , according armenian geography seventh century , called great armenia divided 3 pontus \( pontus \) old name black sea 4 members one several ancient armenia 5 ter title heads sovereign royal families ancient armenia david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org explain turkish troops p center regional studies armenian border , ca n't p box 382761 even explain 1915 \? cambridge , 02238 turkish mp , march 1992
c l gannon newcastle ac uk \( space \) subject exact , 2 5 million readers enlightened serdar argic nntp posting host organization computing laboratory , u newcastle upon tyne , uk ne1 7ru lines dog andrew writes serdar argic \( k serdar argic , merciful compassionate \) writes serdar argic 's , divine , knowing , wisdom omitted solemn tribute join serdar argic fan club \? get shirt \? friendly neighborhood alien life n't since david koresh died ah c'mon , give guy three days see comes leo disclaimer n't , honest , email , made ! ! c l gannon newcastle ac uk
tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) subject conventional israel palestinians nntp posting host orion oac uci edu organization university california , irvine lines 69 latest israeli proposal , first proposed february 1992 , contains following assumptions concerning nature interim status refering wb gaza , palestinians , implemented negotiations states israel remain existing source authority final status agreed upon israel delegation power organs interim self government arrangements \( isga \) isga apply palestinian inhabitants territories israeli military administration arrangements territorial application , apply israeli population territories palestinian inhabitants jerusalem residual powers delegated isga reserved israel israelis continue live settle israel alone responsibility security aspects external , internal maintenance public order organs isga administrative functional nature exercise powers isga subject cooperation coordination israel israel negotiate delegation powers responsibilities areas administration , justice , personnel , agriculture , education , business , tourism , labor social welfare , local police , local transportation communications , municipal affairs religious affairs several question come mind concerning success hope ongoing negotiation process arrangements certainly seem essentially rejection palestinian interim self control without exposing unwarranted risks creating , israel reasonably put forward \( later points negotiating process \) relaxed proposals interim period \? proposals \( either side \) altered temper approaches stated \? israeli worries , desire interim control , addressed providing real interim palestinian self governing entity \? tim later comment seem two perceptions addressed first israel , little trust arab groups , little support israel giving tangible assets exchange pieces paper , expectations , hopes , etc second arab world palestinians , demand tangible concessions made israel without receiving anything tangible back given , gap two stances seems need israel receiving tangible returns expected concessions tangible meant something 1 \) provides israel comparable protection \( land give \) , 2 \) way ensures arab states palestine accountable held actively \( \) responsible upholding actions territory \( citizens visitors \) israel hanging largely scared stiff minute lets go \( gives lands back arab states , buffer zone , gives full autonomy palestinians \) , arab parties could \( would , controlled somehow \) easily return traditional anti israel position question really ensure happen tim clock ph graduate student uci tel 714 , 8565361 department politics society fax 714 , 8568441 university california irvine
jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) subject israel 's expansion ii organization department redundancy department lines 28 article 93111 225707pp3903a auvm american edu paul h pimentel pp3903a auvm american edu writes gives isreal right keep jeruseleum \? home muslim well jewish religion , among others gives us right keep new york \? home united nations well home myriad ethnic groups \( actually , nyc comparable gaza strip controlling authority would probably pleased punch unload someone else one seems want ! \) heck , nobody ever mentions shamir forty fifty years ago terrorize westerners much way abdul nidal today seems isrealis nowhere arabs , therefore right jerusaleum much isreal historical bullshit shamir fought british \( , incidentally , shipped whole jews back nazis extermination hung jewish fighters captured n't want deal anymore \) shamir attack civilians airliners , cruise ships , airports , sports events , movie , markets , buses children comparison master murderer like abu nidal blind ! jake livni jake bony1 bony com ten years , george bush american occupied new york replaced jimmy carter opinions employer opinions standard failed president
jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) subject u holocaust memorial museum costly dangerous mistake organization department redundancy department lines 47 's fault violation one rules avoid barf posting article genesis mcs com arf genesis mcs com \( jack schmidling \) writes article bony1 bony com jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) writes private contributions federal land hate mongering article devoid current historical fact , intellectual content social value toilet goes know unbiased source nyt comes things concerning israel damned , spiking israelists , right , \? neither times trained seals responded thus far seem trained seals \? mean ones flap making arf , arf ! arf , arf ! sounds \? recognize statement private funds tax exmpt , american taxpayers put least 30 money , federal land mitigate offensiveness alien monument dedicated perpetuating continual flow tax money foreign entity \? mind , seem believe tax exemption equivalent government funding holy shit , batman ! us government one major supporters catholic church violation rules separation church state ! federal land tax money could used americans better yet , house homeless americans quick , bill ! churches give people ! anti logic apply mosques belonging described perhaps synagogues characterized \? jake livni jake bony1 bony com ten years , george bush american occupied new york replaced jimmy carter opinions employer opinions standard failed president
hernlem chess ncsu edu \( brad hernlem \) subject israeli media \( israeli terrorism \) reply hernlem chess ncsu edu \( brad hernlem \) organization ncsu chem eng lines 33 article news service uci edu , tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) writes article 1993apr24 203620 6531 virginia edu ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) writes think israeli press might tad bit biased reporting events doubt propaganda machine goering reported accurately happening germany interesting basing truth israeli propaganda since one also unlikely get truth either arab palestinian news outlets , go understand , learn \? one form propoganda reliable another \? way determine try get beyond writer 's political agenda , whether side tim andi , disagree value israeli news sources want know events palestine makes sense get news directly source every news source inherently biased extent various reasons , intentional otherwise however , sources relied upon easier see truth discern bias go read listen israeli media learn news opinion israel palestine form opinions hopefully informed even views n't change brad hernlem \( hernlem chess ncsu edu \) jake call doctor brad ali hernlem \( last wednesday \)
dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) subject lezgians azerbaijan daghestan keywords organization p center regional studies lines 38 article hydra gatech edu gt1091a prism gatech edu \( gt1091a gt1091a kaan , timucin \) wrote kt hello , shit face david , see still around dont want kt see shitty writings posted man told close eyes walk away kt getting itchy fucking country defending history armenians network six years seen likes enter forum , make fools , simply vanish armenians 1915 ! kt hey , dont give freedom speach bullshit realize sir , turkey ! usa freedom speech considered bullshit freedoms turks like allowed attend georgia tech kt freedom ended started writing things kt people try translate david 's problem \? ca n't stand heat leave ! government murdered 1 5 million armenians would stay quiet suit personal fancy fascist regarding greatness turkey ! well , simply bad kt bye , hade kt timucin ! david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org armenia learned lesson p center regional studies anatolia forgotten p box 382761 punishment inflicted 4 14 93 cambridge , 02238 late turkish president turgut ozal
koc rize ece orst edu \( koc \) subject seventh century armenian math problems organization college engineering , oregon state university lines 32 nntp posting host rize ece orst edu problem 1 father told following story famous wars armenians persians , prince zaurak kamsarakan performed extraordinary heroic deeds three times single month attacked persian troops first time , struck half persian army second time , pursuing persians , slaughtered one fourth soldiers third time , destroyed one eleventh persian army persians still alive , numbering two hundred eighty , fled nakhichevan , remainder , find many persian soldiers massacre answer \( 1 1 2 1 4 1 11 \) 280 1760 corollary armenians strike , slaughter , destroy , massacre , innocent asala network claims
dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) subject accounts anti armenian human right violations azerbaijan 014 summary prelude current events nagorno karabakh organization p center regional studies lines 120 accounts anti armenian human right violations azerbaijan 014 prelude current events nagorno karabakh asked , 's going \? says , 's matter , ca n't see , 've overturned car 're killing armenians ! deposition born 1942 employed sumgait bulk plant resident building 34 , apartment 33 microdistrict 12 sumgait azerbaijan february 27 wife went baku go shopping returned sumgait around five evening ran one relatives bus station got talking lot people gathered far away , near store well first n't know happening , fellow know comes , azerbaijani guy , says , standing \? go home immediately ! asked , 's going \? says , 's matter , ca n't see , 've overturned car 're killing armenians ! helped catch cab got home safely sat home two days time gang bandits came courtyard neighbors would n't let building 80 sticks pieces hands shouting something , could n't understand n't one voice two , shouting chorus turned toward building 35 went third floor , see 're breaking glass throwing things window come entryway one pair jeans hands , another tape recorder , third guitar went toward auto parts store save midnight march 1 went hide school 33 , microdistrict 13 two armenian families us 13 us altogether known ernest , moved sumgait azerbaijani guard school let us first n't want , nowhere else us go plead talk told day , 1st , would attack microdistrict went upstairs classroom second floor city radio station announced three telephone numbers could used summon assistance communicate anything important called one first secretary sumgait city party committee answered asked assistance say , 're school 33 , need evacuated well says , got , wait , i'm sending help know voice first secretary plant , spoken personally called said , muslimzade two hours call heard shouts near school looked window 100 120 people outside saying , armenians , come , 're get clubs , axes , armature shafts hands guard sat us , asked , go \? say , life value 'll go say armenians left 's went said , armenians , said , let back door , went way pointed hand shouts noise mob set direction pointed assistance promised come sent us help , right ! instead sending real soldiers sent positive muslimzade one seen us entering school , one knew case , stayed school seven morning , soldiers sort came aid morning went relative 's microdistrict 1 , soldiers took us sk club club jammed people , lots people ahead us space available one small boy , three months old , died right arms n't single doctor , nothing boy , wounds bruises ill gave mouth mouth , everything could circumstances , unable save mother father , young armenian couple , right , floor searched spot us sk , small child , wanted find room something put family went third floor , lot soldiers , , , , heads broken open terrible sight young guys , lot armenians , everyone beaten , everyone crying , wailing , calling help think city party committee ignored us completely true , snack bar 30 40 , package cookies cost 26 sold 50 , bottled soft drink cost ruble way get things cheaper met old uncle , , saw tears eyes whole life told friendly peoples , worked together , always azerbaijanis house saw nothing could say , cried understand feelings , course april 8 , 1988 yerevan reference 1 sumgait tragedy pogroms armenians soviet azerbaijan , volume , eyewitness accounts , edited samuel shahmuradian , forward yelena bonner , 1990 , published aristide caratzas , ny , pages 185 186 david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org armenia learned lesson p center regional studies anatolia forgotten p box 382761 punishment inflicted 4 14 93 cambridge , 02238 late turkish president turgut ozal
embl heidelberg de subject turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece \( armenia azeris \) organization embl , european molecular biology laboratory lines 76 article 93105 auvm american edu , auvm american edu writes look mr atakan repeated past , shall repeat , comes greeks treating turks greece , simply shut hearing simply form propaganda ethnic fellows studied greek universities without paying money tuition , food , insurance high school graduate put simple math compare turkish community greece destruction greek minority turkey aykut atakan panos tamamidis mr tamamidis claims , suggest kind individuals trying make points human rights , , unequal treatment turkish minority greece want world know bad treat people deny anything say make write things saw eyes prove prejudice saying free insurance , school etc greeks give things turkish minority everybody rights get words even discriminate people think giving big favor people giving thing reality get nothing know practices conducted government greece , suggest investigate see facts , discuss basic human rights like fredom religion , see freedom religion must ne least blind ! fredom press turkish 2 weeks ago read interview turkish journalist greek magazine , said nothing turkish press greece ! minority , ethnic cleansing turks greece , give brake call cleansing doubles \? freedom right property without government intervention , mean \? anyway greece , every country want property goverment fredom right vote choose community leaders , well well well turkish area komotini elect 1 3 area greek parliament , freedom \? 3 3 \? maybe turks living greek government encourages people destroy religious places , houses , farms , schools turkish minority forcing go turkey without anything cannot deny actions fanatics sides reported minority greek idiots indeed attack religious places , protected greek police photographs greek policemen preventing turks non brain minority greek press conclude writing , let point greeks treated turkey consider greek minority , instead consider part society difference among people turkey state greek minority go turkish universities , get free insurance , food , health insurance basic human needs part turkish community big businesses belong greeks turkey proud unlike greece tries destroy turkish minority , encourage minorities turkey part turkish society oh please give brake ! minorities turkish treated like \? die prisons every day political beliefs , reported turks , want us believe tha turkey paradise human rights \? business greeks turkey \? yes 80 years ago ! seem intelligent , presenting turkey paradise human rights matter bit aykut atakan
bc744 cleveland freenet edu \( mark ira kaufman \) subject israeli press organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 20 nntp posting host thor ins cwru edu andy beyer claimed israeli press bit biased fact events shaping politics mideast people read israeli press simply know nothing many events even mentioned read israeli press learn important events know nothing , total reliance western media information israel since read american media israeli media , say absolute certainty anybody exclusively american press knowledge israel true picture going claim israeli papers biased , course may lean right left , like media america still report events people know nothing choose form opinions israel mideast based knowledge average american relies exclusively american media report events mideast consistency accuracy
bc744 cleveland freenet edu \( mark ira kaufman \) subject israel kill reporters organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 12 nntp posting host thor ins cwru edu anas omran claimed , israelis used arrest , sometime kill neutral reporters assertion anas omran , course , total fabrication truth , i'm sure anas omran document sad despicable event otherwise may assume another piece anti israel bullshit posted someone whose family know teach children tell truth omran would care retract would glad retract accusation liar document claim , would glad apologize calling liar failing either would certainly show liar
anwar cs cmu edu \( anwar mohammed \) subject rejoinder questions israelis nntp posting host gs135 sp cs cmu edu organization school computer science , carnegie mellon lines 22 article igc apc org center policy research cpr igc apc org writes center policy research cpr subject rejoinder questions israelis dear josh appreciate fact sought answer questions said , totally happy answers 1 fully answer question whether israeli id cards identify holders jews arabs imply u citizens must identify race true \? trying mislead reader \? think trying mislead people cases race information sought , completely voluntary \( census possibly excepted \) anwar
vnet ibm com \( mike magil \) subject israeli terrorism lines 33 anas omran writes earlier posting high rank israeli officer killed clash whith hamas fantasy begins mujahid terrorist israelis chased killed young mujahid using anti tank missiles terrorist zionists cut mujahid 's body small pieces extend body recognized ten houses destroyed tank missiles anas omran clearly fantastic story , anas ! curious \( \) sources grossly exaggerated account \( , blatant lie \) surprises story yet made front pages major newspapers \( love make state israel look evil humanly possible \) ! story would eaten papers please explain never seen heard ! believe , i'm expecting reply know story came dreams ! ! ! ! michael zion magil ibm canada laboratory
shaig think com \( shai guday \) subject israeli terrorism organization thinking machines corporation , cambridge , usa lines 28 distribution world nntp posting host composer think com article 1rd7eo 1a4 usenet ins cwru edu , cy779 cleveland freenet edu \( anas omran \) writes many neutral human rights organizations always report situation , people used see tv , israelis allow go deep israelis used arrest sometimes kill neutral reporters , another kind terrorism committed jews palestine allow fair neutral coverage situation palestine please list names neutral reporters killed also interesting note outbreak intifada , palestinian parties quickly began demonstrations benefit media spoken danish reporter covered , know least one case found mass demonstration outskirts gaza setup colleagues asked whether footage shot sent replied , , happen became case , idf began closing sensitive trouble spots reporters anas omran shai guday stealth bombers , os software engineer thinking machines corp winged ninja skies cambridge ,
adams bellini berkeley edu \( adam l schwartz \) subject seventh century armenian math problems nntp posting host bellini berkeley edu organization u c berkeley erl lines 24 article flop engr orst edu koc rize ece orst edu \( koc \) writes problem 1 father told following story famous wars armenians persians , prince zaurak kamsarakan performed extraordinary heroic deeds three times single month attacked persian troops first time , struck half persian army second time , pursuing persians , slaughtered one fourth soldiers third time , destroyed one eleventh persian army persians still alive , numbering two hundred eighty , fled nakhichevan , remainder , find many persian soldiers massacre answer \( 1 1 2 1 4 1 11 \) 280 1760 thought implication prince destroyed one fourth remaining persian troops second round , 1 11 remaining third round would mean answer \( 1 1 2 \) \( 1 1 4 \) \( 1 1 11 \) 280 821 333
vnet ibm com \( mike magil \) subject israel kill reporters lines 26 anas omran claimed , israelis used arrest , sometime kill neutral reporters assertion anas omran , course , total fabrication truth , i'm sure anas omran document sad despicable event otherwise may assume another piece anti israel bullshit posted someone whose family know teach children tell truth omran would care retract would glad retract accusation liar document claim , would glad apologize calling liar failing either would certainly show liar retract accusation 's liar \? omran verbal n't prove liar really \? retraction would pointless ! giving guy opportunity save face bullshit would encourage ! must say style impressive , mark keep ! mike mi ke mik emi k opinions expressed k e k e k e kem k k e ike ike mike
bdm cs rit edu \( brendan mckay \) subject unconventional peace proposal nntp posting host virginia organization rochester institute technology , rochester , ny lines 42 article apollo hp com goykhman apollo hp com \( red herring \) writes article 1483500348 igc apc org center policy research cpr igc apc org writes center policy research cpr subject unconventional peace proposal unconventional proposal peace middle east elias davidsson stated assumptions , state proposal 1 fund established would disburse grants child born couple one partner israeli jew palestinian arab 5 emergence considerable number 'mixed' marriages israel palestine , would relatives 'both sides' divide , would make conflict lose ethnical unsoluble core strengthen emergence truly civil society existence strong 'mixed' stock people would also help integration israeli society sounds like racial theory hitler outlined mein kampf someone else said something similar comment value lack value elias 's proposal want say distressing least two people profoundly ignorant nazi racial doctrine like elias 's idea , like opposite nazis believed racial purity , racial assimilation instructive example nazi attitude gypsies according nazi , gypsies aryan race persecuted , huge numbers murdered , european considered pure gypsies formed pure race undesirable races key difference theoretical approach jews gypsies , way also true towards end wwii even gypsies hunted theory forgotten brendan \( email bdm cs anu edu au \)
dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) subject ozal died ! organization p center regional studies lines 9 announced npr 4 17 93 10 00 edt , turkish president ozal died heart attack ankara david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org explain turkish troops p center regional studies armenian border , ca n't p box 382761 even explain 1915 \? cambridge , 02238 turkish mp , march 1992
benali alcor concordia ca \( ilyess b bdira \) subject israeli press nntp posting host alcor concordia ca organization concordia university , montreal , canada lines 41 bc744 cleveland freenet edu \( mark ira kaufman \) writes information israel since read american media israeli media , say absolute certainty anybody exclusively american press knowledge israel true picture going course never read arab media , read arab , israeli \( jer post , network enough \) western \( american , french , british \) reports say give israel 10 arabs 10 bias scale \( course switch polarities \) israeli newspapers get either 9 10 , american leading newspapers tv news range 6 10 \( yes israelis israelis \) montreal suburban \( local free newspaper \) probably closer kahane 's views israeli right wing newspapers , british range 0 \( neutral \) 10 , french \( , course \) range 2 \( afro french magazines \) 10 , arab official media range 0 5 \( egyptian \) 9 sa 10 \? want overdo stir people israel therefore since nothing claim israeli papers biased , course may lean right left , like media america still report events people know nothing choose form opinions israel mideast based knowledge average american relies exclusively american media report events mideast consistency accuracy average bias read would probably around 9 , average american would read read new york times similar news makers , 8 read relatively less biased newspapers better
waldo cybernet cse fau edu \( todd j dicker \) subject israel 's expansion ii organization cybernet bbs , boca raton , florida lines 36 ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) writes waldo cybernet cse fau edu writes ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) writes first never said holocaust said holocaust i'm ignorant holocaust know nazi germany people \( maybe including \) uh oh ! first sign argument without merit stating one 's qualifications area know something nazi germany , show n't , shut simple n't think suffering jews wwii justifies crimes commited israeli government attempt call civil liberterians like anti semetic appreciated jews suffered wwii , beloved perished tortured suffered second , name calling directed , civil libertarians general name dropping fancy sounding political term yet another attempt cite qualifications order obfuscate glaring argument go back minors , junior humans suffered emotionally , jews many others suffered physically sad people like blinded emotions ca n't see facts thanks calling names , assures kind ignorant people dealing included letter since thought demonstrated point anything could write 're willing actually support something say fact argument rather covering inadequacies feigned offense , let know otherwise , back league , son
hamid mcrcim mcgill edu \( hamid reza mohammadi daniali \) subject clinton 's views jerusalem originator hamid mcrcim mcgill edu nntp posting host mcrcim mcgill edu organization mcgill research centre intelligent machines lines 23 article 1993apr16 porthos cc bellcore com , bf3833 pyuxe cc bellcore com \( feigenbaum , benjamin \) writes recently read bill clinton 's campaign , stated elected would immediately recognize jerusalem israel 's capital according article , mr clinton reaffirmed winning presidency however , recent talks president mubarak , secretary state christopher stated status jerusalem final matter discussion parties n't want start big discussion status jerusalem want know anyone authenticate mr clinton 's statements dates , places , etc would one results u backed peace ! ! ! ! ! ! process hamid thank ben
alaa peewee unx dec com \( alaa zeineldine \) subject hamas way death organization digital equipment corp x newsreader tin 1 1 pl3 lines 28 nstramer supergas dazixco ingr com \( naftaly stramer \) writes hamas way death \( following transcript recruitment training videotape made last summer battalions , military opposed israel 's many ways death using bombers artillery lebanese towns villages using fire arms lethal variants tear gas rubber coated bullets stone throwers using tanks anti tank missiles homes 5 minute evacuation warning using shin bit 's reasonable physical pressure interrogation counting course past practices bombardment beirut 1982 , bombing egyptian school el abu factory 1978 , downing airliner full egyptian passengers near time overseeing massacre sabra course besides numerous massacres irgun gangs british mandate period ironically op ed page nyt times naftaly copied article running another article next blaming bosnian muslims genocide effectively saying stupid seek independence independence bring people slaughter else would one expect mr never wasted chance bash arabs muslims alaa zeineldine
hernlem chess ncsu edu \( brad hernlem \) subject go hezbollah ! reply hernlem chess ncsu edu \( brad hernlem \) organization ncsu chem eng lines 132 article news service uci edu , tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) writes article 1993apr16 130037 18830 ncsu edu , hernlem chess ncsu edu \( brad hernlem \) writes article 2bce0918 6105 news service uci edu , tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) writes suggesting , guerillas use population cover , israel totally back \? easiest way get away attacking another use innocent shield hope respects innocent lives \? tell tim , guerillas wrong \? assuming using civilians cover , assuming \? also come , brad going get anywhere \( \) discussion , n't help bring elements never addressed , commented way made comment right wrong , civilians used cover , placed israelis guerillas , injured parties continue fight pardon tim , see possible idf fail detect presence responsible planting bomb killed three idf troops later know exact number whereabouts several villages shelled could idf possibly known targetted villages \? see , arbitrary act retaliation buffer zone prevent attacks israel , working \? neccessary israeli guns pound lebanese villages \? kill try infiltrate buffer zone \? see , shelling villages called retaliation getting back getting even n't make sense shell villages least shows reckless disregard israeli government lives civilians agree always thought israel 's bombing bombing policy stupid , , inhumane ineffective , reason israel passive wait attackers chose act every reason believe taking fight enemy stop attacks said previously , israel spent several decades sitting passively side border acting stop attacks attackers entered israeli territory n't work well host arab state little nothing try stop attacks side border israel number attacks considerably higher , physical psychological impact civilians caught path problem , tim , original reason invasion palestinian attacks israel , lebanese attacks \? whole bit attacks israel neighboring arab states start \? also hope happen , occur arab states show prepared take responsibility duty stop guerilla attacks israel soil prove \( provide guaratees \) , way israel going accept word past attitude tolerance towards anti israel guerillas residence israel willing accept word others , imho , business wasting others' time coming peace talks another selectively applied statement reason drawn impasse palestinians israelis neither side willing accept word criteria everyone stay away negotiations precisely palestinians \( recent pisga proposal interim period negotiations leading full autonomy \) demanding conditions essentially define autonomy already trust israel follow entire process allow palestinians reach full autonomy understand accept viewpoint palestinians \? , israel 's view arabs palestinians different \? trust arab words \? since n't , reluctant give tangible assets \( land , control areas \) exchange words reason , also concerned sorts guarantees arabs follow part agreement reached first , believe statement applies sides said , think neccessary separate legitimately negotiable example , country right abuse one 's human rights deciding whether one two states palestine legitimate question de facto one state exists , israel must treat within domain tim , ignoring fact palestinians lebanon disarmed hezbollah remains independent militia hezbollah attack israel except times idf burned sheikh mosavi , wife , young son major armaments \( allowing people wage civil wars \) removed , weapons needed cross border attacks still remain extent rocket attacks still continue , commando raids require easily concealed weapons refined disregard human life \( others \) attacks also continue yes , afraid say true still justify occupying neighbor 's land israel must resolve disputes native palestinians wants peace attacks course , israel would withdraw lebanon stop assassinating people shelling villages would n't make lebanese mad bat guano situation call existed 1970s attacks commonplace true lebanese attacking israel 1970s strong lebanese government \( free syrian israeli interference \) believe border could adequately patrolled palestinian heavy weapons past years see significant threat existed please , tim , n't fall trap treating lebanese palestinians part group many think arabs muslims many times seen people support bombing palestinian camps retaliation idf death hands lebanese resistance shelling lebanese villages retaliation palestinian attack tim
tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) subject hamas way death nntp posting host orion oac uci edu organization university california , irvine lines 15 article 1993apr17 nntpd lkg dec com alaa peewee unx dec com \( alaa zeineldine \) writes nstramer supergas dazixco ingr com \( naftaly stramer \) writes hamas way death \( following transcript recruitment training videotape made last summer battalions , military alaa zeineldine brought separate question israel 's unjustified policies practices , still unclear reaction practices reflected article tim
jim specialix com \( jim maurer \) subject u holocaust memorial museum costly dangerous mistake organization specialix inc lines 25 arf genesis mcs com \( jack schmidling \) writes article bony1 bony com jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) writes private contributions federal land hate mongering article devoid current historical fact , intellectual content social value toilet goes know unbiased source nyt comes things concerning israel neither times trained seals responded thus far seem recognize statement private funds tax exmpt , american taxpayers put least 30 money , federal land mitigate offensiveness alien monument dedicated perpetuating continual flow tax money foreign entity \? federal land tax money could used americans better yet , house homeless americans donations tax deductible like donations non profit organization 've donated money group restoring tax deductible n't contribute group helping homeless concerned \?
vnet ibm com \( mike magil \) subject final solution palestine \? lines 89 k , turn driving jews sea \? ! sick tired 'driving jews sea' sentance attributed islamic movements plo simply ca n't proven part plan ! may suggest palestinian national covenant \( 1964 \) may use exact words quoted i'm sure many agree message issued later get back home try find precise section \( \) research \( hope \) also realize yasser arafat covenant western media yet inform officially exact intentions issue therefore , far concerned covenant still stands bible \( speak \) mainstream palestinian national movement ! \( pro israeli activists repeat like without checking authenticity since coined brith \) staunch pro israel activist say brith influenced opinions arab israeli conflict mentioned , little research subject lead anyone reach similar conclusion palestinian national movement \( plo cases \) bb properly speak many people around share views hamas islamic jihad believe , far get arab media , islamic state protects rights inhabitants koranic law would reversal 1948 situation jews palestine took control land \( mostly muslim \) inhabitants 1948 situation \? negative situation presume \? situation jordanian occupiers east jerusalem would allow jews go worship holiest site \? example law exercised \? , another suggested reading get soc culture arabic newsgroup posters debating topic jews qu'ran \( may remind people debating appear devout muslims knowledge qu'ran \) find jews n't really viewed positively qu'ran \( put lightly \) think jews \( non islamic religion \) treated islamic state governed words qu'ran \? think 1948 1967 situation jerusalem return best ! think \? however , whoever committed crimes humanity \( torture , blowing homes , murders , \) must treated tried war criminal political thought movements shows freedom choice given jews living new law leaving choice say , , see c jews qu'ran think freedom choice definitely option law especially non muslims women ! remember gulf war \? i'm sure saw reports women rights saudi arabia \( islamic state \) plo , loss explain going inside arafat 's mind probably nothing ! aside break news palestinian brethren covenant null void without getting assassinated ! although political thinking seems far fetched israel acting true super power region , islamic movements using weapon jews used establish state religion conclusion , ahmed , go library find palestinian national covenant \( 1964 \) read carefully way , library stock exactly found research enjoy reading hope hearing back soon ! mike mi ke mik emi k opinions expressed k e k e k e kem k k e ike ike mike ibm corp , toronto , canada
ahmeda mcrcim mcgill edu \( ahmed abu abed \) subject desertification negev originator ahmeda ice mcrcim mcgill edu nntp posting host ice mcrcim mcgill edu organization mcgill research centre intelligent machines lines 23 article 1993apr26 cs brown edu , dzk cs brown edu \( danny keren \) writes nonsense lived negev many years say sure beduins moved harmed way contrary , standard living climbed sharply many live rather nice , permanent houses , cars quite students ben gurion university good , friendly relations rest population beduins met would rather surprised read mr davidson 's poster , say danny keren nonsense , danny , refute proof citing experience 1940 's \( article comparing condition \) otherwise , trying change facts ahmed
cbnewsl cb att com \( seth r rosenthal \) subject freedom u organization bell laboratories lines 51 article 1993apr25 virginia edu , ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) writes jaa12 cunixa cc columbia edu writes dear mr beyer never wise confuse freedom speech freedom racism violent deragatory unfortunate many fail understand crucial distinction fact , speach offensive , protection freedom speach laws would useless speach find questionable must protected , religiously blasphemous inherently racist civilized discourse scare tactics one enlighten one perceives ignorant idea behind freedom expression find offensive might perceived truth might find offensive might belief free exchange ideas \( insults case seems channel \) one change another 's erring ways jefferson said afraid tolerate error long reason left combat forward offensive posts sysadmin n't freedom speech neo nazi movement right make speeches , say anything want right speeches published n times depends times analysis economic somewhat extent value speeches likewise sysadmin fellows system feels resources used manner best interests , perhaps embarassing organization , act new york times , conduit ideas poster free loading someone else 's pocket book posts controls purse strings right make decision wants funds spent spent noone going put poster jail , unless bombs local building symbol hatred freedom speech way equates information market ideas natural selection process weeds ga ga credible ideas importance seth rosenthal disclaimer opinions
mvp netcom com \( mike van pelt \) subject u holocaust memorial museum costly dangerous mistake organization netcom online communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 17 article genesis mcs com arf genesis mcs com \( jack schmidling \) writes neither times trained seals responded thus far seem recognize statement private funds tax exmpt , american taxpayers put least 30 money dammit , 's latest excretion escape kill file \? oh , changed sites sigh ok , assume person planet ever use login name arf arf ak j mike van pelt mvp netcom com local prohibitions cannot block advances military commercial technology democratic movements local restraint restrain world 's democracies , world whole k eric
ohayon jcpltyo jcpl co jp \( tsiel ohayon \) subject israeli terrorism , anas anus organization james capel pacific limited , tokyo japan lines 20 anas omran writes earlier posting anas high rank israeli officer killed clash whith hamas anas mujahid terrorist israelis chased killed young mujahid anas using anti tank missiles terrorist zionists cut mujahid 's anas body small pieces extend body recognized anas ten houses destroyed tank missiles indeed israeli soldiers killed hamas mujahid anti tank missile i'm almost sure terrorist zionists would able cut body probably desintegrated missile stop polluting net fantasies tsiel 8 8 tsiel ohayon jcpl co jp receive e mail , please let employer may know soon possible , possible opinions , ! two percent zero almost nothing
warren ac il \( warren burstein \) subject exact , 2 5 million muslims exterminated armenians organization , jerusalem , israel lines 33 ac zuma uucp sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) pl linden positive eng sun com \( peter van der linden \) pl 1 , turks kill armenians \? ac , jews kill germans \? ac even make armenians laugh ac appropriate analogy jewish holocaust might ac systematic extermination entire muslim population ac independent republic armenia consisted ac least 30 40 percent population republic ac memoirs armenian army officer participated ac eye witnessed atrocities published u ac 1926 title 'men like ' references abound typical mutlu asks x happened , response happened even grant armenians cosar accuses , bearing whether turks accused understand ai could stupid , ca n't understand human could moron either let ai run amok compose pointless messages expect followup article argic anything alleviate maybe 'll see new line list insults warren nysernet org
hydra maths unsw edu au \( \) subject turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece \( armenia azeris \) nntp posting host hydra maths unsw edu au organization school mathematics unsw lines 101 article 1993apr16 iastate edu tankut iastate edu \( sabri atan \) writes article 1993apr15 174657 6176 news uiowa edu , mau herky cs uiowa edu \( mau napoleon \) writes article 1993apr15 iastate edu , tankut iastate edu \( sabri atan \) well , panos , mr tamamidis \? , way put turks bear responsibility things happening today hard believe somebody trying objective comes conflicts like countries cannot blame one side , always bad guys sides anatolia ww1 anyway \? think right \? 've heard many turks say n't read remember treaty sevres consequence axis powers wwi turks international law supposed look minorities ie greeks , armenians , kurds \( must say turk kurd relations improving slightly time \) pose threat turkey 's neighbours turks blatantly rejected treaty \( germans accepted versailles million times worse health pride german people \) greeks army , british french backing enforce sevres possibly first example appeasement young turk government managed screwed treaty weak allies , greek forces destroyed smyrna occurred , french warships harbour many greeks trying escape swam french warships climbed aboard get arms cut french 're way sides ships , , couple millions greeks living asia minor 1923 someone protect us \? \? saying conflicts started one side aggressive ither always suffering sad \( \) still trying compromise remember action turkish government removing visa requirement greeks come turkey thought positive attempt make relations better compromise , invasion cyprus , involment turkey greek politics , refusal turkey accept 12 miles territorial waters stated international law , properties greeks konstantinople , ownership islands greek lake , sorry , aegean things compromise greeks mentioned would n't talk educated people never met know ! bad person turkey politics business , business turks comes individuals hatred \? person supports policies turkish goverment directly bad person nationality makes bad , support actions goverment make bad people hate supporter policies turkish goverment must pay price makes think kind brainwashing going greece would educated person treat every person nation way \? tell history books things learn greek turkish encounters schooling take easy ! tankut atan tankut iastate edu achtung , baby ! need brainwashing turn people turks talk greeks , arabs , slavs , kurds people luck turkish occupation talk murders , rapes , distruction learn turks history books , learn people experienced first hand turkish friendliness napoleon well , napoleon kind people preventing peace world first , n't answer question asked end posting told bullshit throughout posting positive point issue , filled hatred , filled emotions \? forget , n't think worth discuss issue tankut atan tankut iastate edu achtung , baby !
chrism cirrus com \( chris metcalfe \) subject conventional israel palestinians organization cirrus logic inc lines 6 fact israel already discussing palestinians composition armed palestinian police force territories transition phase indicates real solid concessions liberal thinking part israeli side chris metcalfe
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject moment silence perpetrators turkish genocide \? reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 115 article sdcc12 ucsd edu sdcc14 ucsd edu \( system operator \) writes april 24th approaching , armenians around world getting ready remember massacres family members celebrating joy cold blooded genocide 2 5 million muslim people criminal grandparents 1914 1920 \? think could cover genocide perpetrated fascist grandparents grandparents 1914 \? 've never heard \? soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul power tear away veil illusion us create certainly possible severe artificial life support system imagined 'ethnic purity' us falsely trust structure support heart beats alien land \( sahak melkonian 1920 preserving armenian purity \) first world war ensuing years 1914 1920 , armenian dictatorship premeditated systematic genocide , tried complete centuries old policy annihilation turks kurds savagely murdering 2 5 million muslims deporting rest 1 , 000 year homeland attempt genocide justly regarded first instance genocide 20th century acted upon entire people event incontrovertibly proven historians , government international political leaders , u ambassador mark bristol , william langer , ambassador layard , james barton , stanford shaw , arthur chester , john dewey , robert dunn , papazian , nalbandian , ohanus appressian , jorge blanco villalta , general nikolayef , general bolkovitinof , general prjevalski , general odiselidze , meguerditche , kazimir , motayef , twerdokhlebof , general hamelin , rawlinson , avetis aharonian , dr stephan eshnanie , varandian , general bronsart , arfa , dr hamlin , boghos nubar , sarkis atamian , katchaznouni , rachel bortnick , halide edip , mccarthy , w b allen , paul muratoff many others j c hurewitz , professor government emeritus , former director middle east institute \( 1971 1984 \) , columbia university bernard lewis , cleveland e dodge professor near eastern history , princeton university halil inalcik , university professor ottoman history member american academy arts sciences , university chicago peter golden , professor history , rutgers university , newark stanford shaw , professor history , university california los angeles thomas naff , professor history director , middle east research institute , university pennsylvania ronald jennings , associate professor history asian studies , university illinois howard reed , professor history , university connecticut dankwart rustow , distinguished university professor political science , city university graduate school , new york john woods , associate professor middle eastern history , university chicago john masson smith , jr , professor history , university california berkeley alan fisher , professor history , michigan state university avigdor levy , professor history , brandeis university andreas g e bodrogligetti , professor history , university california los angeles kathleen burrill , associate professor turkish studies , columbia university roderic davison , professor history , george washington university walter denny , professor history , university massachusetts caesar farah , professor history , university minnesota tom goodrich , professor history , indiana university pennsylvania tibor halasi kun , professor emeritus turkish studies , columbia university justin mccarthy , professor history , university louisville jon mandaville , professor history , portland state university \( oregon \) robert olson , professor history , university kentucky madeline zilfi , professor history , university maryland james stewart robinson , professor turkish studies , university michigan list goes serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
bill paxton fourd com subject organization 4th dimension bbs lines 7 nntp posting host cs utexas edu good case rights abortion system fourd com phone 617 494 0565 cute quote computer means never say 're sorry
bill paxton fourd com subject argic organization 4th dimension bbs lines 7 nntp posting host cs utexas edu one question \? get retarded \? system fourd com phone 617 494 0565 cute quote computer means never say 're sorry
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject armenians celebrating genocide 2 5 million muslim people , reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 65 article sdcc12 ucsd edu sdcc14 ucsd edu \( system operator \) writes , painfully witnessed azerbaijan , would like see happen joke month \? 1 fascist grandparents exterminated 2 5 million muslim people 1914 1920 2 nazi parents fully participated extermination european jewry wwii 3 criminal cousins slaughtering muslim women , children elderly people fascist x soviet armenia karabag last four years entire population x soviet armenia , result genocide 2 5 million muslim people , armenians nearly one thousand years , turkish kurdish people lived homeland last one hundred oppressive soviet armenian occupation persecutions culminated 1914 armenian government planned carried genocide muslim subjects 2 5 million turks kurds murdered remainder driven homeland one thousand years , turkish kurdish lands empty turks kurds survivors found safe heaven turkiye today , x soviet armenian government rejects right turks kurds return muslim lands occupied x soviet armenia today , x soviet armenian government covers genocide perpetrated predecessors therefore accessory crime humanity x soviet armenian government must pay crime genocide muslims admitting crime making reparations turks kurds turks kurds demand right return lands , determine future nation homeland 78th anniversary , come reiterate unity muslim people , turkish kurdish demands desire pursue struggle restitution struggle unites turks kurds today , appeal turkish kurdish people united states canada participate en masse commemorative events , cultural , political religious serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject today marks 78th anniversary turkish genocide reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 65 article sdcc12 ucsd edu sdcc14 ucsd edu \( system operator \) writes , painfully witnessed azerbaijan , would like see happen joke month \? 1 fascist grandparents exterminated 2 5 million muslim people 1914 1920 2 nazi parents fully participated extermination european jewry wwii 3 criminal cousins slaughtering muslim women , children elderly people fascist x soviet armenia karabag last four years entire population x soviet armenia , result genocide 2 5 million muslim people , armenians nearly one thousand years , turkish kurdish people lived homeland last one hundred oppressive soviet armenian occupation persecutions culminated 1914 armenian government planned carried genocide muslim subjects 2 5 million turks kurds murdered remainder driven homeland one thousand years , turkish kurdish lands empty turks kurds survivors found safe heaven turkiye today , x soviet armenian government rejects right turks kurds return muslim lands occupied x soviet armenia today , x soviet armenian government covers genocide perpetrated predecessors therefore accessory crime humanity x soviet armenian government must pay crime genocide muslims admitting crime making reparations turks kurds turks kurds demand right return lands , determine future nation homeland 78th anniversary , come reiterate unity muslim people , turkish kurdish demands desire pursue struggle restitution struggle unites turks kurds today , appeal turkish kurdish people united states canada participate en masse commemorative events , cultural , political religious serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject armenians also partners nazi practices reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 82 article cj blaze cs jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \( ken arromdee \) writes implies sides equal true , may sometimes difficult still living alternate universe \? numerous articles major newspapers \( london times \) periodicals \( newsweek \) war , suggested existence significant collaboration armenians nazis arthur derounian deserves credit first person deal issue extensively derounian 's motives twofold deeply held democratic convictions gave sense duty felt obliged shed light yet another dark chapter armenian history concurrently , derounian one would call control' face saving order potential attacks larger armenian community united states , collaboration deplorable insignificant 1 1 john roy carlson \( real name arthur derounian \) , 'the plotters , ' e p dutton company , inc , new york 1946 , p 182 source , berlin , december 1939 , nr 2 5 6 yet another historical fact fact years deliberately forgotten , concealed , wiped memory fact armenian nazi collaboration magazine called der deutsch clearest definite proof collaboration magazine first published berlin 1938 nazi rule germany continued publication end 1944 even name magazine , implies declaration armenian nazi cooperation , attention getting magazine , every issue proves collaboration , historically important documentary evidence heap writing world opinion mankind nazi germany , armenians considered aryan race certain political , economic , social rights thus granted occupied positions public service partners nazi practices whole world course knows awaited considered aryan befell wait , source sardarapat sevres lausanne avetis aharonian armenian review , vol 16 , 3 63 , autumn , sep 1963 , pp 47 57 p 52 \( second paragraph \) three chiefs , dro , hamazasp kulkhandanian bands destroyed tartar villages staged massacres zangezour , surmali , etchmiadzin , zangibasar intolerable look pointed file official documents table look , december reports last months concerning ruined tartar villages representative wardrop sent official tartar communique speaks destruction 300 villages p 54 \( fifth paragraph \) yes , course repeat , massacre tartars stopped three chiefs removed military leadership hardly think supply arms ammunition armed bands led dro , hamazasp kulkhandanian past months raided destroyed many tartar villages regions surmali , etchmiadzin , zangezour , zangibasar official charges massacres serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject year turkish nation mourning praying reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 207 referring notes personal diary russian general l turkish front , wrote , nights 11 12 march , 1918 alone armenian butchers bayoneted axed death 3000 muslims areas surrounding erzincan threw victims pits , likely dug according sinister plans muslims , groups 80 counted 200 pits act world civilization march 12 , 1918 colonel wrote \( official russian account turkish genocide \) , roads leading villages bayoneted , joints carved organs muslim peasants alas ! mainly women children source doc dr azmi , russian view atrocities committed armenians turks , ankara , ankara , 1987 , pp 45 53 document 77 , archive 1 2 , cabin 10 , drawer 4 , file 410 , section , contents 1 12 , 1 18 \( acting commander erzurum regions commander second erzurum artillery regiment prisoner war , lieutenant colonel \) things heard seen two months , liberation erzurum turks , surpassed allegations concerning vicious , degenerate characteristic armenians russian occupation erzurum , armenian permitted approach city environs commander first army corps , general remained power , troops including armenian enlisted men , sent area security measures lifted , armenians began attack erzurum surroundings following attacks came plundering houses city villages murder owners houses plundering widely committed soldiers plunder mainly committed armenian soldiers remained rear war one day , passing streets horseback , group soldiers including armenian soldier began drag two old men seventy years certain direction roads covered mud , people dragging two helpless turks mud dirt understood later nothing tricks traps turks joined soon changed minds withdrew reason turks night patrol return , one knew happened turks sent outside city labour began disappear also finally , court martial established trials murderers , began fear would punished incidents murder rape , decreased , began occur frequently sometime january february , leading turkish citizen haci erzurum , killed one night home commander chief \( \) gave orders find murderers within three days commander chief bitterly reminded armenian intellectuals disobedience among armenian enlisted men reached highest point , insulted robbed people half turks sent outside city returned learnt details incident commander chief , follows killings organized doctors employers , act killing committed solely armenian renegades eight hundred unarmed defenceless turks killed erzincan large holes dug defenceless turks slaughtered like animals next holes later , murdered turks thrown holes armenian stood near hole would say hole filled corpses dead bodies , well , hole take ten ' thus ten turks would cut pieces , thrown hole , hole full would covered soil armenians responsible act murdering would frequently fill house eighty turks , cut heads one one following erzincan massacre , armenians began withdraw towards erzurum armenian renegades among withdrew erzurum erzincan raided moslem villages road , destroyed entire population , together villages transportation cannons , ammunition carriages outside war area , certain people hired among kurdish population conduct horse carriages travellers passing erzurum , armenians took advantage time russian soldiers dwellings began kill kurds hired russian soldiers heard cries dying kurds , attempted help however , armenians threatened russian soldiers would fate intervened , thus prevented acting terrifying acts slaughter committed hatred loathing lieutenant russian army described incident witnessed erzurum follows armenian shot kurd kurd fell die armenian attempted force stick hand mouth dying kurd however , since kurd firmly closed jaws agony , armenian failed attempt seen , armenian ripped open abdomen kurd , , finally killed stamping iron heel boot told us turks could escape village killed heads cut axes also told us seen thousands murdered children lieutenant colonel , passed village , three weeks massacre told us following thousands dead bodies hacked pieces , roads every armenian happened pass roads , cursed corpses courtyard mosque meter square , dead bodies piled height 140 among corpses men women every age , children old people women 's bodies obvious marks rape genitals many girls filled gun powder educated armenian girls , worked telephone operators armenian troops called lieutenant colonel courtyard mosque bitterly told proud armenians done lieutenant colonel 's disgusted amazement , armenian girls started laugh giggle , instead horrified lieutenant colonel severely girls indecent behaviour told girls armenians , including women , generally even wildest animals , indecent shameful laughter obvious evidence inhumanity barbarity , scene appalled even veteran soldiers , armenian girls finally remembered sense shame claimed laughed nervous armenian contractor communication zone command following incident took place february 20 armenians nailed turkish women wall cut women 's heart placed heart top head great massacre erzurum began february 7 enlisted men artillery division caught stripped 270 people took people bath satisfy lusts 100 people among group able save lives result decisive attempts others , armenians claimed , released learnt understood going among organized act envoy armenian officers , today , turks murdered streets february 12 , armenians shot ten innocent moslems russian soldiers attempted save people threatened death meanwhile imprisoned armenian murdering innocent turk armenian officer told armenian murderer would hanged crime , killer shouted furiously 'how dare hang armenian killing turk \? ' erzurum , armenians burned turkish market february 17 , heard entire population village , situated within artillery area , totally annihilated day antranik entered erzurum , reported massacre , asked track perpetrators horrible act however result achieved villages whose inhabitants massacred , natural silence night 26 27 february , armenians deceived russians , perpetrated massacre escaped fear turkish soldiers later , understood massacre based upon method organized planned circular population certain place killed one one number murders committed night reached three thousand armenians details massacre armenians fighting turkish soldiers number cowardly could even withstand turkish soldiers consisted five hundred people two cannons , one night , ran away leading armenians community could prevented massacre however , armenian intellectuals shared ideas renegades massacre , others lower classes within armenian community always obeyed orders leading armenian figures commanders like give impression armenian intellectuals accessories murders , people opposed armenians actions , since understood would yield result however , people minority furthermore , people considered traitors armenian cause seemingly opposed armenian murders supported massacres secretly , hand , preferred remain silent certain others , , accused russians infamy , would say following 'you russians never understand armenian cause ' armenians conscience would commit massacres would flee fear turkish soldiers serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
adam endor uucp \( adam shostack \) subject israeli terrorism organization aiken computation lab , harvard university lines 46 article 1rd7eo 1a4 usenet ins cwru edu cy779 cleveland freenet edu \( anas omran \) writes previous article , tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) says article 1993apr24 203620 6531 virginia edu ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) writes since one also unlikely get truth either arab palestinian news outlets , go understand , learn \? one form propoganda reliable another \? many neutral human rights organizations always report situation neutral organization would report situation israel , elderly children victims hamas activists neutral organization might also report israeli arabs full civil rights israelis used arrest sometimes kill neutral reporters care name names , yet another unsubstantiated slander \? , another kind terrorism committed jews palestine allow fair neutral coverage situation palestine terrorism , would know spine allowed stand , random attacks civilians includes things shooting cripple side boat happens jewish allowing people go likely stabbed killed , like certain lawyer killed last week , adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu budget big enough drugs sexual favors , sure would n't waste members congress john perry barlow
jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) subject legality jewish purchase organization department redundancy department lines 46 article 1993apr21 news columbia edu ayr1 cunixa cc columbia edu \( amir rosenblatt \) writes article 1993apr19 bnr ca zbib bnr ca writes shafting part arab land owners without notifying tenant farmers responsible enough make provisions , rather leaving fate landlord sells apartment building vacant another landlord fails notify tenants , might find street sudden seller may scoundrel crook n't make buyer thief , israelis often called tpm interesting though acknowledge palestinians shafted many israelis jews share opinion \? absolve purchaser ethical commitments n't written \? n't know others share opinion mine , i'm sure agree n't way see , fallahin caught circumstances beyond control , since n't land , n't say course , sake greater arab unity arabs angry land sold jews \( act illegal jordan \) , happened , business arabs lived along coast western palestine , later called israel , shafted brother arabs 've shafted decades since arab somehow , though , arab call continued blame israel , syrian sell western palestine \( israel \) even occupation eastern palestine \( jordan \) refusing take blame one 's actions infra structure etc \) imho palestinians grounds contest legality purchase , say world court job eliminated corporate takeover , could probably go court , 'd probably lose , though jake livni jake bony1 bony com ten years , george bush american occupied new york replaced jimmy carter opinions employer opinions standard failed president
jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) subject 'center policy organization department redundancy department lines 85 article igc apc org center policy research cpr igc apc org writes seems many readers conference interested behind center research oblige , please name elias davidsson , citizen , born palestine mother thrown germany belonged \( times group defined \) forced go palestine due many cynical factors forced go palestine dreadful unlike jews , n't forced go gas chamber , forced , thrown river , forced medical experiment like rat , forced march dropped dead , burned nothingness mother forced go palestine deepest sympathies meanwhile settled iceland \( 30 years ago \) pleased hear escape least wo n't suffer fate mother met many people thrown homeland , palestine , homeland , palestine \? reason \( belonged \) assume refering jews kicked homes jerusalem jordanian occupation east jerusalem \? people called thieves claiming houses owned lived never sold anyone \? people include neighbors jerusalem children played child crime jews never heard jew crime certainly israel , crime times places jew crime , jew \? \? ! ! conscience accept injustice , period brains accept logic , yet , either work justice done name principled opposition racism racial discrimination protest practices arab countries support long protest based principled position , tactic deflect criticism israel way 've written , seem accept criticism arab world unless criticism israel , case , presume , longer support criticism arab world struggle discrimination racism universal look 's discrimination ! center policy research name gave activities undertaken guidance different domains , command support many volunteers iceland however formal institution works minimal funds careful starting sound like professionally music teacher composer published several pieces piano music taught widely europe would hope discussion israel palestine conducted civilized manner calling names helpful good n't call arf center policy research , either jake livni jake bony1 bony com ten years , george bush american occupied new york replaced jimmy carter opinions employer opinions standard failed president
arf genesis mcs com \( jack schmidling \) subject u holocaust memorial museum costly dangerous mistake organization mcsnet contributor , chicago , il lines 26 nntp posting host localhost mcs com article specialix com jim specialix com \( jim maurer \) writes arf genesis mcs com \( jack schmidling \) writes recognize statement private funds tax exmpt donations tax deductible like donations non profit organization 've donated money group restoring tax deductible n't contribute group helping homeless concerned \? \( \) contribute arf mortgage fund interest rates , paid problem , could n't convince congress move home nicer location federal land btw , even though building alleged funded tax exempt private funds , operating costs borne taxpayers forever would anyone like guess much come tell us point never mentioned \? js
world std com \( mark w kramer \) subject seventh century armenian math problems keywords philosphy , greece , persians , math organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 5 delightful message , interesting , kindly written thanks prof kramer , boston university
adam endor uucp \( adam shostack \) subject israeli terrorism article das 1993apr26 organization aiken computation lab , harvard university lines 65 article 2bdad779 24910 news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) writes article amoss 93apr25163327 shuldig cs huji ac il amoss shuldig cs huji ac il \( amos shapira \) writes cy779 cleveland freenet edu \( anas omran \) writes eh \? \? \? \? could please give details event neutral observer killed purpose israeli soldier \? actually , i'm still trying understand self justifying rationale behind recent murder ian \( \? \) gaza hate simple minded tim , think really simple dirty jew good jew , peoples mind , dead jew thats 40 years propaganda fails discriminate jew zionist thats 20 years statements like ones 've appended someones mind make people sick drag political discourse point killing opponent honorable way resolve dispute else come \? peace \? adam arafat political palestinian leader suggests ending intifada exposes bullets people life plo know deal '' arafat , kuwaiti news agency , 1 2 89 arafat massacre square `` behalf arab palestinian people , leadership , take opportunity express extreme gratification able restore normal order recent incidents people 's china '' arafat sent head chinese communist party yassir arafat , humanitarian fire new jewish immigrants soviet union , ethiopia , anywhere else would disgrace lift finger herds immigrants settle territory want shoot makes difference live jaffa jericho give explicit orders open fire everything stop flow immigration '' yassir arafat , al \( lebanese weekly \) , april 10 , 1990 yassir arafat genocide ``when arabs set volcano , arabs part world people continue fuel torch revolution rivers blood whole occupied homeland liberated '' yasser arafat , ap , 3 12 79 adam shostack adam das harvard edu budget big enough drugs sexual favors , sure would n't waste members congress john perry barlow
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject letter president , members congress , newspapers , tv stations reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world news software 1 2 r4 lines 111 today marks 78th anniversary armenian genocide 2 5 million turks kurds eastern anatolia x soviet armenia following letter , represents small portion full text , along 200 pages historical documents , scholarly sources , eyewitness accounts photographs , sent president bill clinton , members congress , editors , program directors columnists major newspapers , journals radio tv stations 78th anniversary armenian genocide 2 5 million muslim people april 23 every year , people turkiye remember dead grieve lost family lost homes grandfathers year turkish nation mourning praying fallen heroes gave lives altruism , future generations may live anointed soil turkish land happily letter years world war , x soviet armenian government planned perpetrated muslim people , took lives 2 5 million muslim people , also method used empty turkish homeland inhabitants day , turkish historic lands remain occupied x soviet armenia order cover fact usurpation historic turkish homeland , crux turkish political demands , fascist x soviet armenia continues anti turkish policy following ways 1 x soviet armenia denies historical fact turkish genocide order shift international public opinion away political responsibility 2 x soviet armenia , employing asala sdpa arf terrorism revisionism triangle , attempts call question veracity turkish genocide 3 x soviet armenia also implemented state sponsored terrorism asala sdpa arf terrorism revisionism triangle attempt silence turkish people 's vehement demands protests 4 using human , financial , governmental resources , x soviet armenia tools united states attempt silence terrorism , bribery subversive methods , non turkish supporters turkish cause , political , governmental humanitarian using aforementioned methods , x soviet armenian government attempting neutralize international diplomatic community making turkish case contemporary issue yet despite efforts x soviet armenian government terrorist revisionist organizations , last decades , thanks struggle whose closest ones systematically exterminated armenians , international wall silence issue begun collapse , consequently number governments organizations become supportive recognition turkish genocide full knowledge struggle turkish territorial demands still initial stages , turkish kurdish people continue sacred struggle , therefore victims turkish genocide demand 1 x soviet armenian government , heirs armenian dictatorship , recognize turkish genocide 2 x soviet armenia return historic homeland turkish kurdish people 3 x soviet armenian government make material reparations heinous unspeakable crime victims turkish genocide 4 world governments , especially united states , officially recognize turkish genocide turkish territorial rights refuse succumb armenian political pressure 5 u government free friendly position adopted towards unreliable ally , x soviet armenia , officially recognize historical fact turkish genocide well supportive pursuit turkish territorial demands 6 x soviet republics officially recognize historical fact turkish genocide include cold blooded extermination 2 5 million muslim people history books awareness turkish people necessity solidarity efforts pursue turkish cause seen victims first genocide 20th century positive step furthermore , new generation risen equipped deep sense commitment , politically mature conscious , pursue turkish cause , necessary means , ranging political diplomatic armed struggle therefore , victims turkish genocide call upon muslims united states canada participate vigorously political , cultural religious activities 78th anniversary armenian genocide 2 5 million muslim people serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
cosmo pro angmar alfalfa com \( frank benson \) subject freeman organization utexas mail news gateway lines 5 nntp posting host cs utexas edu watch language asshole ! ! ! ! proline cosmo pro angmar internet cosmo pro angmar alfalfa com uucp uunet ! bu edu ! alphalpha ! pro angmar ! cosmo
perlman qso colorado edu \( eric perlman \) subject final solution gaza \? summary davidsson ca n't even get basic facts right nntp posting host qso colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 27 article 1483500354 igc apc org center policy research cpr igc apc org writes gaza strip , tiny area land highest population density world , cut world weeks israeli occupier decided punish whole population gaza , 700 000 people , denying right leave strip seek work israel anyone choice piece tripe without checking sources deserve believed gaza strip possess highest population density world fact , n't even close one example serve illustrate folly statement city hong kong nearly ten times population gaza strip roughly comparable land area centers numerous cities also possess comparable , far higher , population densities examples include manhattan island \( ny city \) , sao paolo , de mexico , bombay , need go \? rest mr davidsson 's message closer truth oft repeated statement sad see model decorum tranquillity become like sport battleground rival ideologies slug glee tim rice , chess eric perlman perlman qso colorado edu center astrophysics space astronomy , university colorado , boulder
adam endor uucp \( adam shostack \) subject israel 's expansion ii organization division applied sciences , harvard university lines 35 organization aiken computation lab , harvard university keywords article 93111 225707pp3903a auvm american edu paul h pimentel pp3903a auvm american edu writes gives isreal right keep jeruseleum \? home muslim well jewish religion , among others israel right keep jerusalem many reasons include fact majority citizens israeli , fact israel maintains religious freedom people , historical connection judaism jerusalem jerusalem jordanian invasion 1948 , cease fire agreement included right individuals visit religious cease fire agreement violated jordan , allow jews visit holy sites control jordanians also every city turned jewish hotel , used israel allowed individuals religions jerusalem , protected holy sites , demonstrated fitness control city also , point islam centered jerusalem , holy sites home islam mecca , muslims make \( \) unlike israeli jerusalem , jews christians allowed saudi mecca adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu budget big enough drugs sexual favors , sure would n't waste members congress john perry barlow
adam endor uucp \( adam shostack \) subject israel 's expansion ii organization aiken computation lab , harvard university lines 25 article 22apr93 vm1 mcgill ca b8ha b8ha musicb mcgill ca writes article 1993apr22 et tudelft nl avi duteinh et tudelft nl \( avi cohen stuart \) writes article 93111 225707pp3903a auvm american edu , paul h pimentel pp3903a auvm american edu one big difference israel arabs , christians respect israel allows freedom religion avi , information , islam permits freedom religion compulsion religion judaism permit freedom religion \( e non jews recognized judaism \) wondering islam , compulsion , tax judaism , non jews allowed wish , effort made convert adam shostack adam das harvard edu budget big enough drugs sexual favors , sure would n't waste members congress john perry barlow
dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) subject seventh century armenian math problems summary mr koc wins free prize ! keywords philosophy , greece , persians , math organization p center regional studies lines 43 article flop engr orst edu koc rize ece orst edu \( koc \) responded article 1993apr22 urartu sdpa org dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) wrote dd problem 1 dd dd father told following story famous wars dd armenians persians , prince zaurak kamsarakan performed dd extraordinary heroic deeds three times single month attacked dd persian troops first time , struck half persian army dd second time , pursuing persians , slaughtered one fourth dd soldiers third time , destroyed one eleventh persian army dd persians still alive , numbering two hundred eighty , fled dd nakhichevan , remainder , find many persian soldiers dd massacre koc answer \( 1 1 2 1 4 1 11 \) 280 1760 good ! win prize free trip karabakh azeri soldier ! , calculate odds coming back trying de area armenians ! koc corollary armenians strike , slaughter , destroy , massacre koc , innocent asala network claims fact n't notice mention turks shirak , van , trebizon seventh century story ! fact places filled armenians 1915 fact end 1916 , turkish genocide armenians , armenians left shirak , van , trebizon turks kurds ! fact , pontus greeks left alive trebizon either ! conclusion numbers n't lie either case ! david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org explain turkish troops p center regional studies armenian border , ca n't p box 382761 even explain 1915 \? cambridge , 02238 turkish mp , march 1992
adam endor uucp \( adam shostack \) subject final solution gaza \? organization aiken computation lab , harvard university lines 31 article 1483500354 igc apc org center policy research cpr igc apc org writes people commented , figured 'd add comments gaza strip , tiny area land highest population density world , cut world weeks hong kong , cairo higher population densities israeli occupier decided punish whole population gaza , 700 000 people , denying right leave strip seek work israel fundamental right work another country closing strip punishment , security measure stop people stabbing israelis help given gazans israeli jews , dozens people , humanitarian assistance dozens minus one , since one stabbed death days ago adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu budget big enough drugs sexual favors , sure would n't waste members congress john perry barlow
perlman qso colorado edu \( eric perlman \) subject final solution palestine \? nntp posting host qso colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 50 article 1993apr25 171003 10694 thunder mcrcim mcgill edu ahmeda mcrcim mcgill edu \( ahmed abu abed \) writes article hm angell cs brown edu , hm cs brown edu \( harry mamaysky \) writes article 1483500354 igc apc org center policy research cpr igc apc org writes final solution gaza ghetto \? israeli jews fete uprising warsaw ghetto , repress violent means uprising gaza ghetto attempt starve gazans jews warsaw ghetto fighting keep families sent nazi gas chambers groups like hamas islamic jihad fight expressed purpose driving jews sea perhaps , persuade jewish people help freedom fighters attain ultimate goal maybe freedom fighters choose spare co operative jews counting , elias pity murderers say mother jewish ashamed must son sorry , mrs davidsson harry k , turn driving jews sea \? ! sick tired 'driving jews sea' sentance attributed islamic movements plo simply ca n't proven part plan ! discussed , several people , net statement attributable either amin al husseini , former grand mufti jerusalem leader palestinian death squads 1948 war , one chief henchmen coined , matter , jewish organization sad see model decorum tranquillity become like sport battleground rival ideologies slug glee tim rice , chess eric perlman perlman qso colorado edu center astrophysics space astronomy , university colorado , boulder
adam endor uucp \( adam shostack \) subject symbiotics idiots antisemitism organization division applied sciences , harvard university lines 27 article igc apc org center policy research cpr igc apc org writes center policy research cpr zionism holocaust first point note regarding appropriation history holocaust zionist propaganda zionism without anti semitism impossible zionism agrees basic tenet anti semitism , namely jews cannot live non jews wrong zionism acknowledges fact anti semites exist , prevent jews living peace mean agree jews greedy , jews kill christian children , commited , anything else acknowledge morons believe things adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu budget big enough drugs sexual favors , sure would n't waste members congress john perry barlow
bh437292 longs lance colostate edu \( basil hamdan \) subject go hizbollah ii ! reply bh437292 lance colostate edu nntp posting host traver lance colostate edu organization engineering college , colorado state university lines 15 article 1993apr24 1 utxvms cc utexas edu , ifaz706 utxvms cc utexas edu \( noam tractinsky \) writes paraphrasing bit , every rocket hizbollah fires galilee , justify israel 's holding security zone noam want say agree noam point hope sides stop targeting civilians basil
eshneken ux4 cso uiuc edu \( edward shnekendorf \) subject happy birthday israel ! organization university illinois urbana lines 2 israel happy 45th birthday !
tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) subject final solution gaza \? nntp posting host orion oac uci edu organization university california , irvine lines 39 article 1993apr26 colorado edu perlman qso colorado edu \( eric perlman \) writes article 1483500354 igc apc org center policy research cpr igc apc org writes gaza strip , tiny area land highest population density world , cut world weeks israeli occupier decided punish whole population gaza , 700 000 people , denying right leave strip seek work israel anyone choice piece tripe without checking sources deserve believed gaza strip possess highest population density world fact , n't even close one example serve illustrate folly statement city hong kong nearly ten times population gaza strip roughly comparable land area centers numerous cities also possess comparable , far higher , population densities examples include manhattan island \( ny city \) , sao paolo , de mexico , bombay , need go \? rest mr davidsson 's message closer truth oft repeated statement initial statement certain hot air seems almost standard procedure around first throw , image order add extra meaning posting 's real point however , second statement quite real essential sealing gaza residents possibility making living happened certainly , israeli legitimate worry behind action took , n't action little draconian \? tim clock ph graduate student uci tel 714 , 8565361 department politics society fax 714 , 8568441 university california irvine home tel 714 , 8563446 irvine , ca 92717
hm cs brown edu \( harry mamaysky \) subject final solution palestine \? reply ahmeda mcrcim mcgill edu 's message sun , 25 apr 93 17 10 03 gmt organization dept computer science , brown university 1993apr25 171003 10694 thunder mcrcim mcgill edu lines 81 article 1993apr25 171003 10694 thunder mcrcim mcgill edu ahmeda mcrcim mcgill edu \( ahmed abu abed \) writes article hm angell cs brown edu , hm cs brown edu \( harry mamaysky \) writes article 1483500354 igc apc org center policy research cpr igc apc org writes final solution gaza ghetto \? israeli jews fete uprising warsaw ghetto , repress violent means uprising gaza ghetto attempt starve gazans jews warsaw ghetto fighting keep families sent nazi gas chambers groups like hamas islamic jihad fight expressed purpose driving jews sea perhaps , persuade jewish people help freedom fighters attain ultimate goal maybe freedom fighters choose spare co operative jews counting , elias pity murderers say mother jewish ashamed must son sorry , mrs davidsson harry k , turn driving jews sea \? ! sick tired 'driving jews sea' sentance attributed islamic movements plo simply ca n't proven part plan ! \( pro israeli activists repeat like without checking authenticity since coined brith \) hamas islamic jihad believe , far get arab media , islamic state protects rights inhabitants koranic law would reversal 1948 situation jews palestine took control land \( mostly muslim \) inhabitants however , whoever committed crimes humanity \( torture , blowing homes , murders , \) must treated tried war criminal political thought movements shows freedom choice given jews living new law leaving choice plo , loss explain going inside arafat 's mind although political thinking seems far fetched israel acting true super power region , islamic movements using weapon jews used establish state religion ahmed forget syntax , ahmed , focus fact plo recognize israel 's right exist perfectly obvious plo covenant \( cairo , 1968 \) covenant calls destruction zionist entity far know israel destruction clauses still exist document specifies purpose existence plo would like , post relevant hamas ideal far radical , seems know posted several times , copy , sure someone \( , course \) would happy repost regardless phrasing , groups like hamas , hezbollah , even newly moderate politically correct plo , heart ideologies need israel seems mr davidsson 's suggestion jews support people organizations particularly appealing one many jews harry
tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) subject go hizbollah ii ! nntp posting host orion oac uci edu organization university california , irvine lines 26 article yuma acns colostate edu bh437292 lance colostate edu writes article 1993apr24 1 utxvms cc utexas edu , ifaz706 utxvms cc utexas edu \( noam tractinsky \) writes paraphrasing bit , every rocket hizbollah fires galilee , justify israel 's holding security zone noam want say agree noam point hope sides stop targeting civilians basil absolutely i'm sure civilians sides would pleased fighters \( military , guerilla , whatever \) would take argument elsewhere , find area somewhere , slug point , breath sigh relief cheer side struggle tim clock ph graduate student uci tel 714 , 8565361 department politics society fax 714 , 8568441 university california irvine home tel 714 , 8563446 irvine , ca 92717
adam endor uucp \( adam shostack \) subject sea \? sea \? said rivers ! organization aiken computation lab , harvard university lines 27 article 1993apr25 171003 10694 thunder mcrcim mcgill edu ahmeda mcrcim mcgill edu \( ahmed abu abed \) writes sick tired 'driving jews sea' sentance attributed islamic movements plo simply ca n't proven part plan ! ok , 'll admit ca n't find quote meager online resources find little gem ``when arabs set volcano , arabs part world people continue fuel torch revolution rivers blood whole occupied homeland liberated '' yasser arafat , ap , 3 12 79 , ahmed right nothing driving jews sea , bit ethnic cleansing , river blood improvement \? adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu budget big enough drugs sexual favors , sure would n't waste members congress john perry barlow
shaig think com \( shai guday \) subject israeli press organization thinking machines corporation , cambridge , usa lines 48 distribution world nntp posting host composer think com article benali alcor , benali alcor concordia ca \( ilyess b bdira \) writes course never read arab media , n't , though israel make point listening news , well monte carlo radio united states , generally read nyt , occasionally , mainstream israeli read arab , israeli \( jer post , network enough \) western \( american , french , british \) reports say give israel 10 arabs 10 bias scale \( course switch polarities \) israeli newspapers get either 9 10 , american leading newspapers tv news range 6 10 \( yes israelis israelis \) montreal suburban \( local free newspaper \) probably closer kahane 's views israeli right wing newspapers , british range 0 \( neutral \) 10 , french \( , course \) range 2 \( afro french magazines \) 10 , arab official media range 0 5 \( egyptian \) 9 sa 10 \? want overdo stir people israel therefore since nothing may taking account jp longer representative mainstream israel purchased years ago battle control , liberal left wing reporters walked new owner stated past , , jp 's task geared towards explaining promoting israel 's position , attacking gov't \( likud time \) paper would recommend reading , middle stream factual ha least case two years ago average bias read would probably around 9 , average american would read read new york times similar news makers , 8 read relatively less biased newspapers nat'l enquirer \? 8 \) seriously , one read leftist newspapers one could arrive conclusions information received highly selective extrapolating bad move shai guday stealth bombers , os software engineer thinking machines corp winged ninja skies cambridge ,
hm cs brown edu \( harry mamaysky \) subject happy birthday israel ! reply eshneken ux4 cso uiuc edu 's message mon , 26 apr 1993 17 57 50 gmt organization dept computer science , brown university lines 6 article news cso uiuc edu eshneken ux4 cso uiuc edu \( edward shnekendorf \) writes israel happy 45th birthday ! may neighbors know peace even see 46
hovig uxa cso uiuc edu \( hovig heghinian \) subject seventh century armenian math problems organization university illinois urbana lines 25 koc rize ece orst edu \( koc \) writes problem 1 father told following story famous wars armenians persians , prince zaurak kamsarakan performed extraordinary heroic deeds three times single month attacked persian troops first time , struck half persian army second time , pursuing persians , slaughtered one fourth soldiers third time , destroyed one eleventh persian army persians still alive , numbering two hundred eighty , fled nakhichevan , remainder , find many persian soldiers massacre answer \( 1 1 2 1 4 1 11 \) 280 1760 corollary armenians strike , slaughter , destroy , massacre , innocent asala network claims hmm turks sure know keep track deaths , seem lose count around 1 5 million hovig
warren nysernet org \( warren burstein \) subject exact , 2 5 million muslims exterminated armenians organization nysernet , inc lines 34 ac zuma uucp sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) pl linden positive eng sun com \( peter van der linden \) pl 1 , turks kill armenians \? ac , jews kill germans \? ac even make armenians laugh ac appropriate analogy jewish holocaust might ac systematic extermination entire muslim population ac independent republic armenia consisted ac least 30 40 percent population republic ac memoirs armenian army officer participated ac eye witnessed atrocities published u ac 1926 title 'men like ' references abound typical mutlu asks x happened , response happened even grant armenians cosar accuses , bearing whether turks accused understand ai could stupid , ca n't understand human could moron either let ai run amok compose pointless messages expect followup article argic anything alleviate maybe 'll see new line list insults article supplied without uses recycled 100 words , characters ideas warren nysernet org
adams bellini berkeley edu \( adam l schwartz \) subject final solution palestine \? nntp posting host bellini berkeley edu organization u c berkeley erl lines 27 article hm barney cs brown edu hm cs brown edu \( harry mamaysky \) writes article 1993apr25 171003 10694 thunder mcrcim mcgill edu ahmeda mcrcim mcgill edu \( ahmed abu abed \) writes driving jews sea \? ! sick tired 'driving jews sea' sentance attributed islamic movements plo simply ca n't proven part plan ! proven \? maybe certainly verified beyond reasonable doubt statement statements like matter public record six day war \( 1967 \) think nasser arab leaders broadcasting statements arab radio might want check old newspapers ahmed hamas islamic jihad believe , far get arab media , islamic state protects rights inhabitants koranic law think take look hamas covenant \( written 1988 \) might get different impression original arabic translation 've verified arabic speakers document calls kill jews spread islam forth adam schwartz
aa229 freenet carleton ca \( steve birnbaum \) subject rejoinder questions israelis reply aa229 freenet carleton ca \( steve birnbaum \) organization national capital freenet lines 34 previous article , cpr igc apc org \( center policy research \) says today \? finally , israel wants peace , ca n't declare considers legitimate secure borders , might base negotiations \? facts mind , one cannot blame arab countries fear israeli expansionism , number wars proved \( 1948 , 1956 , 1967 , 1982 \) oh yeah , israel really ready expand borders holiest day year \( yom kippur \) arabs attacked 1973 oh wait , chose omit war perhaps 100 supports exact opposite point trying make \? n't think 's war hit israel hardest also , 1967 egypt , israel kicked un force 1948 arabs refused accept existance israel based borders set united nations 1956 , egypt closed red sea israeli shipping , clear antagonistic act 1982 attack response years constant shelling terrorist organizations golan heights children murdered time terrorists israel finally nowhere see war israel started borders could expanded steve internet aa229 freenet carleton ca fidonet 1 163 109 18 mossad qube ocunix ca opinions associated anything , including head
aa229 freenet carleton ca \( steve birnbaum \) subject rejoinder questions israelis reply aa229 freenet carleton ca \( steve birnbaum \) organization national capital freenet lines 71 previous article , cpr igc apc org \( center policy research \) says 6 answer question concerning rights return conflicts told , namely hundreds thousands non jews left reason area israel control war 1947 8 , prevented returning sole reason jews jews also left , example europe , avoid clashes , allowed return justify discrimination , true \? mere fact person leaving area combat seek refuge somewhere else reason stripping right live homeland \? conveniently fact arab governments told arab citizens israel leave israel , join arab armies felt like assured victory occured , arabs could return former homes , reclaim well anything else wanted belonged jews arabs lost , israel left bunch people tried kill wanted back country citizens would done \? let could kill jews \? israel sees arabs stayed citizens loyal israel war n't leave course arabs could left avoid fighting distinguishing two impossible therefore decision made based country 8 maintain israeli arabs living israeli kibbutzim wonder many little evidence available much know , many arabs working kibbutzim , even many years , accepted members could kibbutzim want arabs \? kibbutz ever visited employees unless hire people restaurants , hotels etc n't enough people kibbutz cases , paid properly kibbutz turns away arab , 9i never seen heard \) reflects membership kibbutz , whole kibbutz movement keep certain religious communities u would asked , would gladly abolish civil marriage people would depend upon rabbis priests marriages israel always ruled secular majority answer satisfactory shows ignorant israeli politics although major parties israel n't religious \( however totally secular \) , due format government \( coalition \) religious parties always lot pull since needed form majority coalition fact , heard present government least influenced religious parties existance israel israel cannot called secular state , haifa city country \( except maybe arab cities \) buses run jewish sabbath many examples religion israel marriages israel state , rabbis priests obviously disbelief fact sheds light ignorance country claim know much steve internet aa229 freenet carleton ca fidonet 1 163 109 18 mossad qube ocunix ca opinions associated anything , including head
center policy research cpr igc apc org subject rejoinder questions israelis nf id n cdp 000 nf cdp uucp ! cpr apr 22 17 29 00 1993 lines 71 center policy research cpr subject rejoinder questions israelis shaig think com subject ten questions israelis dear shai , answers questions answer first question , concerning nonexistence israeli nationality , answer conflicts information received quarters , according two distinct categories israelis citizenship \( \) nationality \( \) former used passports etc , later daily identification israeli society told people israel carry id cards times present many public places , almost every day id cards make clear holder , jew arab maintain mainly religious services provided really believe reason \? could provide evidence case serves purpose \? answer second questions , concerning fact israel fixed borders , state israel 's borders reshaped war according read , first zionists beginning century , plans jewish state extend lebanon \( jordan \) also read express wish ben gurion declare israel 's borders , israel established , might restrict israel 's opportunities later expansion israel often claims right existence fact jews lived 2000 years ago god promised land according biblical sources , area god promised would extend way iraq borders biblical times israel considers proper use today \? finally , israel wants peace , ca n't declare considers legitimate secure borders , might base negotiations \? facts mind , one cannot blame arab countries fear israeli expansionism , number wars proved \( 1948 , 1956 , 1967 , 1982 \) answer third question typical public official n't think answer honest refer vanunu 's revelations israel 's nuclear arsenal without evaluating revelations said truth , punished , lied , punished \? would appreciate honesty somebody provided answer fourth question , concerning israeli prisons posted article ma'ariv documenting cases seems prisoners exist israel think \? imply questions show bias formulated way upon terms often used soviet union dissidents call soviet union disrepute questions disturbing , would call forth hysterical answers questions clearly provocative meant seek facts would happy could convince told israel fabrications , alas failed suspect fear truth open honest discussion sign weakness , strength hope muster courage seek full truth
center policy research cpr igc apc org subject rejoinder questions israelis nf id r cdp cdp 000 nf cdp uucp ! cpr apr 22 17 31 00 1993 lines 83 center policy research cpr subject rejoinder questions israelis dear josh appreciate fact sought answer questions said , totally happy answers 1 fully answer question whether israeli id cards identify holders jews arabs imply u citizens must identify race true \? trying mislead reader \? know democratic country people asked reveal ethnical religious identity public official requests \? 2 answer second question evasive kinds maps issued equivalent state policy respond question 3 answer third question \( israeli nuclear arsenal \) interesting say israeli stocks nuclear weapons evidence maintaining \? 4 fourth question answered someone else posted ma'ariv article documenting cases ask cases like vanunu \( everybody knew tried imprisoned \) nobody even knows tried imprisoned 5 thanks question concerning legal status inhabitants occupied territories understand two sets laws ares , one occupier \( civil law \) one occupied \( military law \) law allows israeli arabs settle hebron , seems , n't allow hebron arabs settle israel \? 6 answer question concerning rights return conflicts told , namely hundreds thousands non jews left reason area israel control war 1947 8 , prevented returning sole reason jews jews also left , example europe , avoid clashes , allowed return justify discrimination , true \? mere fact person leaving area combat seek refuge somewhere else reason stripping right live homeland \? 7 somebody answered 7 question regarding rabin signing order ethnical cleansing 1948 according information , rabin signed order expulsion inhabitants , 50 , 000 people helped massacres civilians atrocities remind bosnia referred book israeli journalist benny goodman called origin palestinian refugee problem , published cambridge university press book available library \? 8 maintain israeli arabs living israeli kibbutzim wonder many little evidence available much know , many arabs working kibbutzim , even many years , accepted members could kibbutzim want arabs \? 9 question lack civil marriage israel whether true israeli legislator intended discourage intermarriage address question saying religious establishment wants keep certain religious communities u would asked , would gladly abolish civil marriage people would depend upon rabbis priests marriages israel always ruled secular majority answer satisfactory would glad input comments elias
rj3s virginia edu \( get thee nunnery \) subject israel 's expansion ii organization university virginia lines 67 waldo cybernet cse fau edu writes ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) writes waldo cybernet cse fau edu writes ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) writes first never said holocaust said holocaust i'm ignorant holocaust know nazi germany people \( maybe including \) uh oh ! first sign argument without merit stating one 's qualifications area know something nazi germany , show n't , shut simple n't think suffering jews wwii justifies crimes commited israeli government attempt call civil liberterians like anti semetic appreciated jews suffered wwii , beloved perished tortured suffered second , name calling directed , civil libertarians general name dropping fancy sounding political term yet another attempt cite qualifications order obfuscate glaring argument go back minors , junior humans suffered emotionally , jews many others suffered physically sad people like blinded emotions ca n't see facts thanks calling names , assures kind ignorant people dealing included letter since thought demonstrated point anything could write 're willing actually support something say fact argument rather covering inadequacies feigned offense , let know otherwise , back league , son never seen immaturity among andi beyer character shows signs anti semitism , yet norm accepted opinion , attack anyone venture answer andi 's question intelligent manner \? ones guilty backing viewpoints fact israelophiles please start intelligent conversation \? insult race ! assuming also semitic comment concerning israeli terrorism 1930 's 1940 's , branch militant groups , fight british get palestine yet fail see israeli form terrorism better terrorism practiced arabs jewish terrorist groups killed innocent british soldiers , also killed many jews favor compromise palestinians addition , massacred entire palestinian village 1948 , contributing exodus frightened palestinians feared lives mention i'm anti semitic i'm part jewish self righteousness part israelites pisses i'm critical palestinians indeed screwed jews 's damn shame palestinians pay german european anti semitism pissed immature , closeminded , self righteous semites
rj3s virginia edu \( get thee nunnery \) subject israeli terrorism organization university virginia lines 32 eshneken ux4 cso uiuc edu writes ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) writes think israeli press might tad bit biased reporting events doubt propaganda machine goering reported accurately happening germany interesting basing truth israeli propaganda consider israeli reporting events israel propoganda , consider washington post 's handling american events propoganda makes israeli press inherently biased opinion \? would n't compare nazi propoganda either unless want provide evidence israeli inaccuracies parallels nazism , suggest keep mouth shut i'm sick tired anti semites comparing israel nazis \( yes , opinion , compare israel nazis anti semite know damn well n't true trying discredit israel \) ed know ed , 're right ! andi n't comparing israel nazis israelis much worse nazis ever anyway nazis lot good germany , would succeeded n't damn jews holocaust never happened anyway ample evidence given george schafer harvard , dept history , even randolph higgins nyu , shown holocaust semitic conspiracy created obtain sympathy creation israel
cy779 cleveland freenet edu \( anas omran \) subject israeli terrorism reply cy779 cleveland freenet edu \( anas omran \) organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 18 nntp posting host slc4 ins cwru edu previous article , adam endor uucp \( adam shostack \) says article 2bdad779 24910 news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) writes article amoss 93apr25163327 shuldig cs huji ac il amoss shuldig cs huji ac il \( amos shapira \) writes cy779 cleveland freenet edu \( anas omran \) writes eh \? \? \? \? could please give details event neutral observer killed purpose israeli soldier \? many cases , remeber names shot killed un observer gaza first half intifada believe world seen pictures israeli soldiers breaking cameras reporters , kicking reporters , confiscating cassettes , showing reporters orders preventing going hot areas pick pictures make reports
bc744 cleveland freenet edu \( mark ira kaufman \) subject rejoinder questions israelis organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 38 nntp posting host thor ins cwru edu although realize principle one strongest points , would still like know ask question sort arab countries want continue think tank charade , fixation israel must stop might start asking sort questions arab countries well realize would work , arab treatment jews last several decades bad fixation israel would begin look like biased attack everyone group recognizes stupid 'center policy research' nothing fancy name bigot hates israel n't try honest hatred israel \? heard family lived israel , members family could cut competition true family \? true \? actually israel , really personal vendetta \? least bit objective israel \? think name phony baloney center hides bias least \? get clue , mr davidsson n't realized yet post stupidity group , going incur answers people armed truth \? n't realized piece selective data piece make truth \? n't realized head \? people read group stupid would hope need place pseudo analysis continually ripped shreds , start show regard objectivity continue show anti israel zealot , trying disguise bias behind pompous name like 'center policy research ' ought know laughing stock , considered joke , either go away , make least attempt objective , place honor among clowns , bigots , idiots usenet
tichauer valpso hanse de \( manfredo tichauer \) subject israeli terrorism organization private site manfredo tichauer lines 16 backon vms huji ac il writes article 1rd7eo 1a4 usenet ins cwru edu , cy779 cleveland freenet edu \( ana anas , course ! needed blood matza , passover last month \) josh , hurry \? celebrated pesach month , xtian blood ! muslim blood n't declared kosher le pesach \( yet \) \) \) manfredo tichauer email tichauer valpso hanse de 14 voice \( 49 40 \) 27 42 27 2000 hamburg 60 germany fax \( 49 40 \) 270 53 09
rj3s virginia edu \( get thee nunnery \) subject israeli terrorism organization university virginia lines 1 kidding
adam endor uucp \( adam shostack \) subject final solution gaza \? organization aiken computation lab , harvard university lines 13 article news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) writes certainly , israeli legitimate worry behind action took , n't action little draconian \? alternative would suggest taken safeguard lives israeli citizens \? adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu budget big enough drugs sexual favors , sure would n't waste members congress john perry barlow
tichauer valpso hanse de \( manfredo tichauer \) subject israel 's expansion ii organization private site manfredo tichauer lines 83 ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) writes i'm ignorant holocaust know nazi germany people \( maybe including \) really belong 25 30 usa n't know holocaust \( real word \) first write message id 1993apr24 203620 6531 virginia edu date sat , 24 apr 1993 20 36 20 gmt think israeli press might tad bit biased reporting events doubt propaganda machine goering later , somebody informed gross mistake , write message id 1993apr25 1373 virginia edu date sun , 25 apr 1993 18 13 51 gmt first let correct goering \( \) ran nazi propaganda machine instead joseph goebbels dare say know nazi germany people \( maybe including us \) \? i'm sure learned history nazi germany austria family resent ignorant statements call people names disagree position opposing atrocities commited israeli hardly qualifies anti semitism think name calling valid form argument intellectual circles , need get often trying make comparisons israels politics nazi german austrian politics shows degree ignorance \( high \) , intellect \( low \) , humanity \( none \) antisemitism \( average \) respect anybody long respects discusses civilized manner would never say anybody israel politics , except uses antisemitic vocabulary terminology israel perfect country politicians also commits errors , even corrupt \( like politicians country \) , carry huge burden care safety citizens , really easy task country surrounded enemies expect israel commits one big error wipe country \( jewish citizens plus called collaborators , arabs wanted live peace jewish neighbours \) map said , israel perfect country , democracy whole middle east country world jews everywhere refuge case persecutions countries living long history taught us cannot rely non jewish nations governments soon les big social economical political problems country , first ones pay broken glasses jews , later minorities country n't think suffering jews wwii justifies crimes commited israeli government attempt call civil liberterians like anti semetic appreciated really outrageous 6 000 000 murdered jews , besides thousands survived way another , rest living ones mourning ! n't know call civil libertarian \( never heard \) know one thing think like , civil libertarians new denomination antisemites may civil libertarians come word group learn beyer right \( civil libertarians antisemites \) , i'm wrong word btw , could n't care less andi beyer manfredo tichauer email tichauer valpso hanse de 14 voice \( 49 40 \) 27 42 27 2000 hamburg 60 germany fax \( 49 40 \) 270 53 09
hap scubed com \( hap \) subject u holocaust memorial museum costly dangerous mistake nntp posting host organization cubed , division maxwell labs san diego ca lines 26 article smith minerva harvard edu smith minerva harvard edu \( steven smith \) writes dgannon techbook techbook com \( dan gannon \) writes u holocaust memorial museum costly dangerous mistake theodore j o'keefe holocaust revisionism theodore j o'keefe editor institute historical review educated harvard university according 1990 harvard alumni directory , mr o'keefe failed graduate may decide indeed educated anywhere steven smith education prerequisite employment ihr \? true ihr really stands institution hysterical reviews \? curious minds would like know hap
shaig think com \( shai guday \) subject rejoinder questions israelis organization thinking machines corporation , cambridge , usa lines 169 distribution world nntp posting host composer think com article igc apc org , center policy research cpr igc apc org writes center policy research cpr subject rejoinder questions israelis shaig think com subject ten questions israelis dear shai , answer first question , concerning nonexistence israeli nationality , answer conflicts information received quarters , according two distinct categories israelis citizenship \( \) nationality \( \) former used passports etc , later daily identification israeli society told people israel carry id cards times present many public places , almost every day id cards make clear holder , jew arab maintain mainly religious services provided really believe reason \? could provide evidence case serves purpose \? number points making assumptions manner cards used true , law , residents , citizens , tourists must carry form identification citizens , standard id id card purpose serves daily basis , wherein presented public places , purpose identifying bearer takes place banks \( checks \) , post offices \( registered mail \) , etc quite frankly , rare ever present id card activities per week law requirement forces people wave id cards public furthermore , none services outlined discriminate bearer manner access information case think field might taken account interaction police , based upon scenario general though , arab citizens clearly recognizable , non arabs argument therefore becomes moot unless provide example field used discriminate officially answer second questions , concerning fact israel fixed borders , state israel 's borders reshaped war according read , first zionists beginning century , plans jewish state extend lebanon \( jordan \) also read express wish ben gurion declare israel 's borders , israel established , might restrict israel 's opportunities later expansion israel often claims right existence fact jews lived 2000 years ago god promised land according biblical sources , area god promised would extend way iraq borders biblical times israel considers proper use today \? finally , israel wants peace , ca n't declare considers legitimate secure borders , might base negotiations \? facts mind , one cannot blame arab countries fear israeli expansionism , number wars proved \( 1948 , 1956 , 1967 , 1982 \) take issue assertions think arab countries know nothing fear israeli expansionism militarily , israel capable holding onto large tracts land occupation hostile , armed , population sustained period time , intifada heavily taxing israeli economy proof seen israeli withdrawal lebanon israeli troops pulled back , later litani , order control minimal strip needed keep towns range katyusha missile fire public opinion israel turned towards settling intifada via territorial concessions israel public battle fatigue sorts gov't aware regards borders , let state following may agree manner negotiations held , however crux matter everyone either makes stating starting position arab parties called total withdrawal return pre 48 borders israel state large borders , negotiations might never get way israel state smaller borders , arab countries might try force even smaller borders negotiations think leaving matter settled negotiations peace treaties infinitely realistic sensible answer third question typical public official n't think answer honest refer vanunu 's revelations israel 's nuclear arsenal without evaluating revelations said truth , punished , lied , punished \? would appreciate honesty statement typical simple minded center policy research whether vanunu 's revelations true bearing fact disclosing state secrets signed contracts forms understanding said secrets made public , one punished n't , moral obligation disclose quite reverse fact taken court , tried , found guilty may take issue number things clearly understanding concept secrets state , something every democratic govt somebody provided answer fourth question , concerning israeli prisons posted article ma'ariv documenting cases seems prisoners exist israel think \? noticed documenting fact prisoners could exist documented fact exist noted , evidently pay attention , know reports cases sorry tell country 4 mill , tightly israel , even matter arrest made public , within relatively short time frame , people would know feelings matter arrest made public unless court order issued allowing delay x hours would granted judge could convinced announcement would cause harm ongoing investigation imply questions show bias formulated way upon terms often used soviet union dissidents call soviet union disrepute questions disturbing , would call forth hysterical answers questions clearly provocative meant seek facts would happy could convince told israel fabrications , alas failed suspect fear truth open honest discussion sign weakness , strength well , sorry say questions slanted questions often termed journalism disturbing avoid attempt objectivity questions often used mccarthy era basis witch took place use example , questions might lifted format used prosecutors looking small bits evidence could distort portray larger picture answers hysterical questions problem q 's provocative , selective fact seeking fall category seek yes answers real answer sorts suspect long answers questions unequivocal , would remain choose see fit sign strength ability look remind mistaken environmentalists advocated wolves cruelty deer , find broken food chain havoc upon environment sought protect color blindness exhibit true sign weakness hope muster courage seek full truth ditto shai guday stealth bombers , os software engineer thinking machines corp winged ninja skies cambridge ,
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject wholesale extermination muslim population armenians reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 82 article blaze cs jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \( ken arromdee \) writes verifiable information instance , person knows buggy product may able tell reproduce bug , still fears retribution known one told public typical 'arromdian' asala sdpa arf terrorism revisionism triangle well , change fact period 1914 1920 , armenian government ordered , incited , assisted participated genocide 2 5 million muslim people race , religion national origin \? 1 \) armenians slaughter entire muslim population van 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 2 \) armenians slaughter 42 muslim population bitlis 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 3 \) armenians slaughter 31 muslim population erzurum 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 4 \) armenians slaughter 26 muslim population diyarbakir 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 5 \) armenians slaughter 16 muslim population 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 6 \) armenians slaughter 15 muslim population sivas 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 7 \) armenians slaughter entire muslim population x soviet armenia 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 8 \) 1 mccarthy , j , muslims minorities , population ottoman anatolia end empire , new york university press , new york , 1983 , pp 133 144 2 karpat , k , ottoman population , university wisconsin press , 1985 3 hovannisian , r g , armenia road independence , 1918 university california press \( berkeley los angeles \) , 1967 , pp 13 , 37 4 shaw , j , 'on armenian collaboration invading russian armies 1914 , history ottoman empire modern turkey \( volume ii reform , revolution republic rise modern turkey , 1808 1975 \) \( london , cambridge university press 1977 \) pp 315 316 5 gochnak \( armenian newspaper published united states \) , may 24 , 1915 source adventures near east rawlinson , jonathan cape , 30 bedford square , london , 1934 \( first published 1923 \) \( 287 pages \) \( memoirs british officer witnessed armenian genocide 2 5 million muslim people \) p 178 \( first paragraph \) moslem villages plain searched arms armenians everything taken cloak search , many moslems killed , horrible tortures inflicted endeavour obtain information valuables hidden , armenians aware existence , although unable find p 175 \( first paragraph \) arrival british brigade followed announcement kars province allotted supreme council allies armenians , announcement made , british troops completely withdrawn , armenian occupation commenced hence trouble armenians commenced wholesale robbery persecution muslem population pretext necessary forcibly deprive arms portion province lies plains able carry purpose , manner done referred due course serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject minority abuses greece reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 201 article panix com panix com \( michael \) writes well , zumabot claims opposite greeks allowing turks exit country , explain number turks thrace steadily risen 50 , 000 23 80 , 000 , greeks dr thought lie repeated enough times could finally believed observing practicing rule quite 's audience mostly made greeks allowed listen turkish news however , today 's informed world greek propagandists fool instance , lived 1974 remember tv news watched newspapers read younger generation read american newspapers july august 1974 find really happened turkiye greek hospital , greek alumni association , islands greek benevolent society , greek medical foundation , greek foundation , greek foundation , greek men 's foundation greece , longstanding use adjective 'turkish' titles prohibited greek courts ordered closure turkish teachers' association , komotini turkish youth association turkish association grounds turks western thrace community associations active 1984 first told remove word 'turkish' buildings official papers eventually close also final verdict \( november 4 , 1987 \) greek high court city komotini , former greek turkish , sentenced recently 18 months imprisonment right appeal , saying turkish descent duly elected ethnic turkish official also deprived political rights period three years one barbaric acts seems none vehicle , used greek governments , cover complex display , vis vis , people turkiye agreement exchange minorities uses term , ' demonstrates actually meant previous reference ' fact greek governments also mention existence thousand non turkish muslims change essential reality lives western thrace much bigger turkish minority also muslim people , three nations \( , turks , greeks \) consider part know muslim turkish minority organized according agreements \? poor ' also proves turkish people trapped greece greek people free settle anywhere world greek authorities deny even existence turkish minority pursue denial connection macedonians greece talk oppression addition , 1980 greek parliament passed law 1091 , virtually taking administration charitable trusts ceased self supporting religious cultural entities talk fascism greek governments attempting appoint , irrespective turkish minority , state official although orthodox church full authority similar matters greece , muslim turkish minority say electing religious leaders talk democracy government greece recently destroyed islamic convention komotini destruction , reflects attitude muslim turkish cultural heritage , violation lausanne convention well 'so greek constitution , supposed guarantee protection historical monuments government greece , hand , building new churches remote villages step toward hellenizing region pondered , president macedonian human rights committee , became latest victim tactic long used greeks silence critics policies forced assimilation macedonian minority forestry official occupation , sent island , hundreds kilometers away native florina employer , florina city council , asked depart 24 hours greek authorities trying punish involvement copenhagen returned florina choice remains without job helsinki watch , well known human rights group , investigating plight turkish minority greece august 1990 , findings published report titled ethnic identity turks greece ' report confirmed gross violations human rights turkish minority greek authorities says instance , greek government recently destroyed islamic komotini destruction , reflects attitude muslim turkish cultural heritage , violation lausanne convention turkish village attacked , broken cemetery razed bulldozers shall go \? \? people turkiye going take human rights lessons greek government discussion human rights violations greece stop greek frontier several following articles shall dwell expose greek treatment turks western thrace aegean macedonians reported greek cypriot administration intense desire arms greece made plans supply tanks armored vehicles destroy accordance agreement reached conventional arms reductions europe meanwhile , greek greek cypriot officials reported planned take measures aimed transfer tanks armored vehicles southern cyprus , process conflict spirit agreement conventional arms reduction europe acceptable method may certainly found know various kinds violent behaviors ranging physical attacks burning buildings village mosque dragged front building burnt shots fired mosque village wait , atrocities vilayet smyrna \( may july 1919 \) , documents evidence english french officers , ' published permanent bureau turkish congress lausanne , lausanne , , held , caroline , 5 \( 1919 \) pages 82 83 1 train going smyrna stopped ephesus 90 turkish travellers , men women ordered descend open street , eyes husbands , fathers brothers , women without distinction age violated , travellers massacred amongst latter lieutenant effendi , native tripoli , captain whose name known , authorities given safe conduct , killed specially atrocious tortures 2 battle , wife lawyer bey coming garden greek soldiers , even garments servant violated 3 two tax ali effendi killed following manner arms bound behind backs wire heads battered burst open blows butt end gun 4 firing town , eleven children , six little girls five boys , fleeing flames , stopped greek soldiers quarter , thrown burning jewish house near bridge , burnt alive fact confirmed oath retired hussein effendi saw 5 clock maker ahmed effendi son arrested dragged shop son eyes put killed court greek church , ahmed effendi heard 6 market , fire , two unknown people wounded bayonets , bound together , thrown fire burnt alive greeks killed also many jews names moussa , shoemaker killed levy , tailor killed israel , killed isaac , shoemaker killed david killed moussa killed killed killed killed isaac sabah wounded wounded david sabah wounded moise killed sarah killed jacob jaffe wounded wounded serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject nazi armenians service germans arab countries well reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 40 article 1993apr26 colorado edu perlman qso colorado edu \( eric perlman \) writes discussed , several people , net statement attributable either amin al husseini , former grand mufti jerusalem leader palestinian death squads 1948 war , one chief henchmen let us forget nazi armenians nazi armenians service germans arab countries well uzun put , one well known case received lot media coverage involved two nazi armenian agents dropped syria italian war planes mission agents among armenian population syria acquire relevant information german wehrmacht allied forces area 1 nazi armenians also helped german propaganda efforts arab countries designed promote pro nazi sentiments among french british ruled arab populations beirut traditionally strong hold nazi armenians recently center international armenian terrorism russia general dro \( butcher \) , architect turkish genocide wwi , working closely german secret service entered war zone men acquired important intelligence soviets experience turkish genocide x soviet armenia made invaluable source germans 2 1 meyer , berkian , ibid , p 150 2 meyer , berkian , ibid , p 113 patrick von zur , ibid , p 84 serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject 2 5 million muslims perished butchery hands armenians reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 92 article 1993apr25 husc3 harvard edu harvard edu \( mikhail \) writes actually , jarmo permanent resident killfile anyone care speculate \? 'll let rest net judge merits 1914 1920 , 2 5 million turks perished butchery hands armenians genocide involved killing innocents deportation russian armenia persecuted , banished , slaughtered much ottoman army engaged world war genocide treaty defines genocide acting intent destroy , whole substantial part , national , ethnic , racial religious group ' history shows x soviet armenian government intended eradicate muslim population 2 5 million turks kurds exterminated armenians international diplomats ottoman empire time including u ambassador bristol denounced x soviet armenian government 's policy massacre kurds , turks , tartars blood thirsty leaders x soviet armenian government time personally involved extermination muslims turkish genocide museums turkiye honor died turkish massacres perpetrated armenians eyewitness accounts historical documents established , beyond doubt , massacres muslim people war planned premeditated aim policy clearly extermination turks x soviet armenian territories muslims van , bitlis , mus , erzurum erzincan districts wives children taken mountains killed massacres trabzon , , adana organized perpetrated blood thirsty leaders x soviet armenian government principal organizers slaughter innocent muslims dro , antranik , armen , , , , , haig source bristol papers , general correspondence container 32 bristol bradley letter september 14 , 1920 absolute first hand information armenians caucasus attacked tartar \( turkish \) villages utterly defenseless bombarded villages artillery murder inhabitants , pillage village often burn village sources \( ottoman state , ministry war \) , islam ahalinin ducar olduklari mezalim hakkinda vesaike mustenid malumat , \( istanbul , 1918 \) french version documents aux par les armeniens sur la population , \( istanbul , 1919 \) latin script h k turkozu , ed , osmanli sovyet belgeleriyle ermeni mezalimi , \( ankara , 1982 \) addition z basar , ed , ermenilerden gorduklerimiz , \( ankara , 1974 \) , edited author , ermeniler hakkinda makaleler derlemeler , \( ankara , 1978 \) askeri tarih belgeleri , vol 32 , 83 \( december 1983 \) , document numbered 1881 askeri tarih belgeleri , vol 31 , 81 \( december 1982 \) , document numbered 1869 capable fighting taken away beginning excuse forced labor road construction , taken direction sarikamis annihilated russian army withdrew , part remaining people destroyed armenian massacres cruelties thrown wells , locked houses burned , killed bayonets swords , places selected butchering spots , bellies torn open , lungs pulled , girls women hanged hair subjected every conceivable abominable act small part people spared abominations far worse cruelty inquisition resembled living dead suffering temporary insanity dire poverty lived frightful experiences subjected including women children , persons discovered far exceed one thousand five hundred erzincan thirty thousand erzurum fields erzincan erzurum , everything people taken away , found situation present time , people subsisting food obtained , impelled starvation , russian left behind occupation area serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject victims armenian barbarism fascism reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 102 article ludwig edu au theo ludwig edu au writes first called istanbul let even spell n b u l secondly turks also asking money , destroyed confiscated properties greece , former yugoslavia \( bosnia serbia \) classic ! ! called 'the also demand x soviet armenian government admit responsibility turkish kurdish genocide , render reparations muslim people , return land rightful owners recognition genocide become issue cannot delayed , imperative artificial obstacles created political manipulations removed 're talking rent vandalism , let 's make fair greece pays back 's dues turkey pays 400 years rent destruction classical architecture deal \? democracy action 'arromdian' asala sdpa arf terrorism revisionism triangle \? turks behaved like christians use force convert islam nations brought power , one could opposed , today would eastern problem turks obeyed word koran permit everybody worship way centuries frederick great pronounced famous thus , age christian europe shed christian blood people europe enjoyed inflicting inhuman tortures upon whose beliefs differed , ottoman empire became sole country inquisition exist , deaths stake unheard accusations witchcraft made barbarian \( ! \) turkey country jews persecuted chased away everywhere christians , could find asylum facts demonstrate muslim countries provided spiritually far better living conditions christian countries 1 turks , conquering nation , nations came rule instead , respected religions traditions stroke luck romania live turkish rule instead russian austrian rule otherwise would romanian nation today \( \) turks rule people administration externally , without interfering internal structures account , autonomy minorities turkey better complete advanced european countries 2 human beings hate account religious differences flaw older islam christianity never examples turkey turks never oppress anybody account religion enmity basis religion case simple contempt among us , keep translating action , many nations europe would probably considered happy ! \( de \) 3 turkey never became scene religious terror cruelty inquisition contrary , served asylum unfortunate victims christian fanaticism look history , see fifteenth century thousands jews expelled spain portugal found good asylum turkey descendants living calmly approximately three hundred years , forced defend countries cruelty christians , especially jew able appear public easter celebrations athens , even today turkey , however , israelites insulted greek armenian communities , local courts immediately take protection vast calm country sultan , religions nations living together peacefully although mosque superior church synagogue , replace , catholic sect free istanbul smyrna compared paris addition fact law turkey prohibits open air ceremonies sect , neither law imprison cross church dead taken graves , long line priests bear candles chant catholic hymns priests churches districts go streets form clerical eucharist celebrations , hymns bearing crosses religious banners , detachment soldiers escorts forces even turks stand respect around group priests \( \) 4 1 ah , gore turkler , 3rd ed \( istanbul , 1978 \) , pp 70 71 2 ibid , p 91 3 ibid , pp 214 215 4 ibid , pp 215 216 serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) subject azeri survivors killed shot back head reply sera zuma uucp \( serdar argic \) distribution world lines 24 12 12 armenian atrocities moscow \( ap \) azerbaijani forces saturday three villages seized armenians discovered 16 bodies executed civilians , azerbaijani reports said azerbaijani fighters found 16 bodies civilians , including child two elderly women shot point blank , survivors killed shot back head , said ministry statement , carried azerbaijani turan news agencies itar tass news service everywhere armenian occupants , left tens corpses civilians shot death point blank mutilated , serdar argic 'we closed roads mountain passes might serve ways escape turks proceeded work extermination ' \( ohanus appressian 1919 \) 'in soviet armenia today longer exists single turkish soul ' \( sahak melkonian 1920 \)
eggertj moses atc mit edu \( jim eggert x6127 g41 \) subject israeli terrorism reply cy779 cleveland freenet edu 's message 26 apr 93 22 22 28 gmt lines 22 reply eggertj atc mit edu organization mit lincoln lab group 41 2bdad779 24910 news service uci edu 1993apr26 das harvard edu usenet ins cwru edu article usenet ins cwru edu cy779 cleveland freenet edu \( anas omran \) writes previous article , adam endor uucp \( adam shostack \) says article 2bdad779 24910 news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) writes article amoss 93apr25163327 shuldig cs huji ac il amoss shuldig cs huji ac il \( amos shapira \) writes cy779 cleveland freenet edu \( anas omran \) writes eh \? \? \? \? could please give details event neutral observer killed purpose israeli soldier \? many cases , remeber names shot killed un observer gaza first half intifada exactly , reminiscent assassination count bernadotte , un 1948 israeli war independence killed israelis seems successful negotiating cease fire , would worked israel , compared continued war jim eggertj atc mit edu \( jim eggert \)
jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) subject israeli terrorism organization department redundancy department lines 29 article 1993apr23 virginia edu ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) writes shame austria , daily reports inhuman acts commited israeli soldiers n't long ago acts israeli soldiers described superhuman , inhuman israelis change radically quickly reporting attitudes changed \? blessing received government makes holocaust guilt go away , look jews treating races got power jews powerless , could help others , obviously quite limited later , liberated american jews forefront civil rights movement jewish government israel rescued jews ranging skin color white russian brown black ethiopian please , andi , tell us jews treating races got power unfortunate ignorance bias indeed unfortunate jake livni jake bony1 bony com ten years , george bush american occupied new york replaced jimmy carter opinions employer opinions standard failed president
jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) subject israeli terrorism organization department redundancy department lines 17 article cee usenet ins cwru edu cl056 cleveland freenet edu \( hamaza h salah \) writes ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) writes andi 's posting deleted hamaza 's comment well said mr beyer \) andi , get full fledged support hamaza salah , know 're wrong track jake livni jake bony1 bony com ten years , george bush american occupied new york replaced jimmy carter opinions employer opinions standard failed president
jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) subject israel 's expansion ii organization department redundancy department lines 17 article 1993apr25 3411 virginia edu ab4z virginia edu \( andi beyer \) writes waldo cybernet cse fau edu writes jews suffered wwii , beloved perished tortured suffered humans suffered emotionally , jews many others suffered physically i'm waiting andi tell us african americans start paying compensation white americans suffered slave owners jake livni jake bony1 bony com ten years , george bush american occupied new york replaced jimmy carter opinions employer opinions standard failed president
jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) subject h r violations israel arab st organization department redundancy department lines 37 article igc apc org center policy research cpr igc apc org writes born palestine \( israel \) family lack peace utter injustice home country affected life bullshit 've iceland past 30 years told us something wanting suffer fate mother , lived jews long time somesuch sounded awful concerned palestine \( israel \) want peace come peace justice concerned peace justice palestine \( jordan \) \? israeli palestinian rights symmetrical first party state none first occupier second occupied let 's say israel grants plo everything ever asked israel goes back 1967 borders palestinean arabs tel aviv call \? palestineans west jerusalem \? haifa \? still claim occupied \? suggest israel kill remaining arabs , much arabs jews \? indeed , much symmetrical conflict e lack symmetry favor israel elias davidsson iceland jake livni jake bony1 bony com ten years , george bush american occupied new york replaced jimmy carter opinions employer opinions standard failed president
nstramer supergas dazixco ingr com \( naftaly stramer \) subject rejoinder questions israelis nntp posting host supergas reply nstramer dazixco ingr com organization intergraph electronics lines 25 article igc apc org , center policy research cpr igc apc org writes center policy research cpr subject rejoinder questions israelis shaig think com subject ten questions israelis dear shai , answers questions n't sue naftaly stramer intergraph electronics internet nstramer dazixco ingr com 6101 lookout road , suite voice \( 303 \) 581 2370 fax \( 303 \) 581 9972 boulder , co 80301 quality everybody 's job , 's everybody 's job watch
dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) subject accounts anti armenian human right violations azerbaijan 008 summary part organization p center regional studies lines 501 accounts anti armenian human right violations azerbaijan 008 part prelude current events nagorno karabakh \( part 008 \) oh , yes , remembered raping repeated quite frequently , let armenian women babies us , muslim babies , let bear azerbaijanis struggle armenians said , muslims carry holy cause heroes ! repeated often deposition born 1959 teacher sumgait secondary school 10 secretary komsomol organization school 10 member sumgait city komsomol committee office resident building 17 , apartment 15 microdistrict 3 sumgait azerbaijan note events kafan , used pretext attack armenians azerbaijan false , verified independent international human rights organizations dd i'm thinking price sumgait armenians paid living armenia paid human casualties crippled fates price great ! , sumgait tragedy , , victims , divide lives talk like war like people went world war ii considered whole epoch , fate matter many years go , matter long live , never forgotten contrary , moments become even sharper rage , sorrow , saw everything differently , say see distance , see inhuman events clarity perceive losses everything happened nineteen eighty eight leap year everyone fears leap year wants pass quickly possible yet never thought leap year would black one every sumgait armenian lost someone n't second last day winter ordinary family , although could already smell danger air n't think danger near possible , n't take steps save least , parents say , least done something save children parents old , 52 53 years thought already lived enough , everything could save us apartment tragedy started february 28 , around five afternoon call tragedy , repeat tragedy even though family survived recall broke door skin even , among armenians , among people wish well , feel like 's starting remember mob broke apartment parents standing hall father axe hands immediately locked doors door rarely locked since friends neighbors often dropped 're known family , never really thought whether people coming see us azerbaijanis , jews , russians friends many nationalities , even woman parents hall , father axe remember telling mother , run kitchen knife mother detached , pale , though decided sell life bit honest never expected , 's afraid getting shot afraid dark girlfriend house day , russian girl , lyuda , mamma said , matter happens , matter us , 're come bedroom 're going tell 're alone apartment went bedroom four us marina russian girl crawled bed , covered rug , boxes dishes , karina standing looking one another idea perhaps seeing last time flashed somewhere inside i'm emotional person express emotions immediately wanted embrace kiss , though last second maybe karina thinking thing , 's quite reserved n't time say anything immediately heard mamma raise shout much noise feet , shouting , excited voices could n't figure going door bedroom open crack mamma shouted second time karina ran bedroom ran , wanted hold back , opened door ran hall saw us immediately thing managed close door behind , least save marina friend mob shouting , eyes shining , red , like insomnia first 40 people burst , later standing back door could n't see came hall , kitchen , dragged father room n't utter word , raised axe hit , mamma snatched axe behind said , tell touch children tell want us , harm children said father armenian azerbaijanis armenia among mob broke understood armenian perfectly local azerbaijanis n't know armenian , n't need speak one responded armenian children 're going thing children armenians kafan killed women , girls , mothers , cut breasts , burned houses , forth , came thing whole time destroying house others shouting us mostly young people , 30 first n't older people among faces unfamiliar sumgait small town , , know lot people faces , especially , i'm teacher dragged father room twisted arms took , n't take , dragged , already unable walk closed door room crack could n't see happening father , young man , 26 years old , started tear mamma 's , mamma shouted azerbaijani i'm old enough mother ! \? ! struck 's held , mamma identified hope 's convicted went karina , 's talking like komsomol leader , though trying lead different path , say , influence consciousness told wrong , must n't said , come , let 's straighten , without emotions want \? \? come \? ever \? someone tried explain come home , ones back kept coming coming said , talking , kill came kill pushed karina , struck , fell beat , n't cry even tore clothes , kept repeating , \? \? even later , came , said , mamma , \? us \? group prepared , know noticed broke furniture , others dealt us remember beating , tearing clothes , felt neither pain shame entire attention karina could watch much beat painful , 's felt pain later , carried karina , beat savagely 's really amazing lived , n't lose mind beautiful everything could destroy beauty mostly beat face , fists , kicking , using anything could find mamma , karina , one room n't feel pain , n't feel , matter much beat , matter one said n't enough room apartment broke beds desk moved everything corners would room someone suggested , let 's take outside beasts heaven would every day n't afraid authorities true colors time thought fact would always behave way n't afraid would happen carried karina beat mamma face completely covered blood 's started feel pain blacked several times pain , moment eyes open though recording film think i'm kind person nature , i'm vengeful , especially someone mean , n't deserve hold long time someone intentionally causes pain every time would come see one animals top , 'd remember , 'll remember rest life , even though people tell forget , forget , go living point remember stood told something , despite fact hurt beaten terribly found strength interfere tortures realized something resist let kill bring suffering end pushed one away , real horse remember 's held , though waiting , seized took onto balcony long hair , stuck one shutters balcony open , realized planned throw window , already picked hands , air though last time took really deep breath closed eyes , somehow inside , suddenly became cold , though heart sunk feet suddenly felt flying could n't figure really flying imagined came thought i'm going smash ground n't happen opened eyes realized still lying floor since n't scream , n't beg , became wild , like wolves started trample feet shoes heels , iron , like put lost consciousness came couple times waited death , summoned , people ask good health , life , happiness , moment n't need things sure none us would survive , even forgotten marina none us alive , n't worth living moment pain especially great withstood inhuman pain , realized going torment long time come showed started strangle , started realized death going put end pleasures , pulled hands throat person injured insulted painfully remember well , oldest group looked around 48 know four children considers ideal father person , one would never thing something came , see , even investigation almost called daughter , apologized , although , course , knew 'd never forgive something like never forgive never injured anyone behavior , words , deeds , always put person 's shoes , , matter hours , trampled entirely shall never forget wanted , nothing lose , one could protect father , tried something hoard beasts , could nothing would n't able anything knew even sure longer alive ira melkumian , acquaintance knew see family couple times brother tried save could n't , tried kill , sister threw axe kill put end suffering stripped clothes carried room , brother knew awaited n't know one , edik igor room axe thrown axe hit one people carrying killed made death even , maybe deaths days sumgait heard neighbor landing name , knows family little came see gotten settled new apartment baku , feeling , needed anything 's good person said , praise god survived saw eyes , , man , seen many people die , lived whole life , , says , nearly lost mind day never seen likes think never shall door apartment open saw everything one brothers threw axe , already taken father mother apartment igor , edik , ira remained saw ira , naked , carried room hands six seven people told us said would never forget heard brothers shouting something , pain , rage , fact powerless anything tried something guy got hit axe lived unsuccessful killing saw taking marina lyuda bedroom state could n't even remember sister 's name wanted cry marina ! , could looked knew familiar , dear face , could n't life remember name thus saved , taking , , turns , told visiting lyuda chance , n't armenians lyuda 's russian , tell right away , marina speaks azerbaijani wonderfully told azerbaijani almost gave away doomed i'm glad least marina came good physical health although spirit murdered point came saw igor , igor , acquaintance , mob lives neighboring building reason remembered name , maybe sensed defense called russian , igor , help ! turned away went bedroom taking marina lyuda bedroom igor said knew marina lyuda , marina fact azerbaijani , took neighbors idea stole maybe igor led apartment , something like , friend , supposed save striking hard indian , metal one , hitting back blacked took onto balcony second time throw window already sure dead n't react new blows someone said , 's already dead , let 's throw carried onto balcony second time , die second time , heard someone say azerbaijani n't kill , know , 's teacher still hear voice ringing ears , ca n't remember whose voice n't igor , speaks azerbaijani accent mother russian speak russian home speaks azerbaijani worse marina remember carried threw bed came , person , opened eyes , saw recognized person , immediately passed cold beaten much n't strength remember remember person older high position unfortunately ca n't remember anything say igor \? n't treat badly heard lot , n't good person , sometimes drank much boasted served afghanistan knew women usually like man especially man afghanistan , wounded , 's eighty percent sure treated , respect later found served ufa , injured , 's afghanistan , course found later among people apartment , karina also saw secretary party organization n't know last name , first name , armenian born azerbaijani later karina n't sure , longer hundred percent sure saw , n't want endanger said , , little later , maybe beat much confusing someone else , seems like sure came see us first time said one thing , next time said something entirely different investigators n't summoned yet came see us khimik boarding house living time brought groceries flowers , right march 8th almost started crying , upset see condition n't know putting us , later , told investigator summoned procuracy , said baku , n't sumgait fact changed testimony leads believe karina right , fact apartment n't know investigators treating one point wondered asked , told alibi apartment could n't gone baku arranged alibi \? i'm ruling possibility ill return apartment mamma come could say bought gold father gave married wedding band watch gold bought husband 's lives gave gold 14 year old boy vadim russian boy , speaks azerbaijani perfectly 's raised grandfather lives sumgait street goes special school , one mentally handicapped children 'll say i'm teacher matter minutes form opinion boy mentally handicapped 's healthy , think fine , analyze , policemen lucky 's cunning , went home tore pictures photo album beat mamma demanded gold , saying , lady , give us gold money apartment 'll let live mamma told gold brought bag opened , shook contents , everyone apartment jumped , started knocking taking gold one another i'm surprised n't kill one another right mamma still control beaten , face black blue blows , eyes filled blood , ran room father lying , tied , gag mouth face broken table top low mamma grabbed father could n't walk like , half dead , halfway world could n't comprehend anything , could n't see , covered black blue mamma pulled gag mouth , sort cloth , think armchair bandits still apartment , even room mamma pulled father , led , carried two room , small magazine table , couch , television , screen three people standing next screen , shirts , pants , everywhere imaginable , shoving shot glasses cups coffee service mamma saw corner eye said , afraid turn around , seized father started pulling , threshold could n't hold , fell , picked dragged stairs neighbors' mamma remembered one criminals , one watched face half turned toward , one eye says , realized death would come person looked eyes fear went stealing later caught scoundrel meanwhile , mamma grabbed father left alone igor taken marina away , mamma father gone , karina already outside , n't know left alone , moment became someone else , understand \? even though knew neither mother father room , marina lyuda bed could save , somehow managed hold went fighting , bit someone , remember , scratched another left alone realized kind people , ones observed , ones beat karina , kind people , ones beat , unnecessary , die would die point took heart saw young man next building n't know name , would one another met , knew microdistrict saw said , neighbor , \? placed great danger realized lived would remember 's grabbed axe axe taken father automatically fell knees raised hands take blow axe , although time would better struck head axe put misery started getting ready wind back blow , someone came room newcomer impact everyone neighbor 's axe froze air everyone stood attention guy , like soldiers presence general everyone waited word continue atrocities said , enough , let 's go third entryway third entryway killed uncle , aleksandr gambarian confirms prepared advance almost left , went picking pillows , , whatever needed , whatever found , way worn slippers one boot , someone else already taken four people remained room , soldiers n't obey general come recently , faces flashed front 2 3 hours , never seen three one , \( identified later \) , native district armenia , azerbaijani , moved azerbaijan year told armenian sister , n't afraid , 'll drive three azerbaijanis 's said , azerbaijanis , though azerbaijani , nationality , said hatred , 'll drive , put clothes , find hammer nails nail door shut , 'll coming back apartment 41 's found gone apartment 41 , person eskimo coat , one came listened , general , said going third entryway helped get clothes , l could n't marina 's old fur coat lying floor threw shoulders , racked , asked could find nails hammer wanted give left could nail door shut door lying floor hall went onto balcony broken windows , flowers dirt scattered floor impossible find anything told , well , fine , wo n't leave would neighbors let \? 'll back , wo n't calm , know 're alive told armenian returned others said , waiting \? leave ! said , ah , want chase us , want urged , gently , , alone , although still boys , old enough drafted led room , went third floor , said , leave 's mat ter , n't men \? go fight men want \? came back upstairs wanted come realized could n't hold forever asked could hide told neighbors' fourth floor , apartment 10 , really good terms knocked door , explained azerbaijani neighbor woman opened door immediately said , i'm azerbaijani said , know let sit place n't open door anyone , one knows , wo n't tell anyone let stay place says , fine , come went cried bit gave stockings , gone entirely numb racked nervous burst tears even though wearing marina 's old fur coat , 's short one , half length , cold asked , know family , happened \? says , , n't know anything i'm afraid go apartment , 're wild n't look see 's azerbaijani 's armenian left ten minutes later neighbor says , know , lyuda , n't want lose life , son wife go stay someone else butchery apartment one scum , , took earring mouth pearl ripped , tearing earlobe earring still i'm nervous fix hair constantly , , touched ear , noticed one earring took gave took earring , led apartment went n't know go heard someone going upstairs n't know assumed tremendous difficulty end apartment , wanted die home go apartment hear coming place , fifth floor something went bedroom marina lyuda hidden saw bed overturned instead hiding near broken christmas ornaments , found one , started came someone said still things take think someone pushed bed lay floor , broken ornaments , head legs got cut , lay without moving heart beating hard seemed whole town could hear lights maybe 's saved burning matches , toward end brought candle started picking clothes could still worn took father 's sport jacket , end head pulled one end , felt like pulling hair almost cried realized n't getting alive , started strangle took throat one hand , pressed mouth , , would die would find afterward throwing burned matches bed , got burned , withstood something inside held , someone 's hand protecting end knew going die , n't know knew survived would walk apartment , found one family died , would die sure , never close death could n't imagine could go living without mother father , without sister marina , thought , still alive went lyuda 's place someone hiding tried think igor would n't let killed served afghanistan , protect said good everyone thought , could marina survive alone killed us , would live \? six people room talked among smoked one talked daughter , saying children 's apartment could take daughter another said liked apartment recently done really good job fixing everything would live everything started argue third one says , come get \? four children , three rooms , 's need years 've living god awful places another one says , neither gets 'll set fire leave someone said azerbaijanis live right next door , fire could move place , good fortune , n't set fire apartment , left oh , yes , remembered raping repeated quite frequently , let armenian women babies us , muslim babies , let bear azerbaijanis struggle armenians said , muslims carry holy cause heroes ! repeated often reference 008 1 sumgait tragedy pogroms armenians soviet azerbaijan , volume , eyewitness accounts , edited samuel shahmuradian , forward yelena bonner , 1990 , published aristide caratzas , ny , pages 118 145 david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org explain turkish troops p center regional studies armenian border , ca n't p box 382761 even explain 1915 \? cambridge , 02238 turkish mp , march 1992
dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) subject accounts anti armenian human right violations azerbaijan 008 b summary part b organization p center regional studies lines accounts anti armenian human right violations azerbaijan 008 part b prelude current events nagorno karabakh \( part b 008 \) oh , yes , remembered raping repeated quite frequently , let armenian women babies us , muslim babies , let bear azerbaijanis struggle armenians said , muslims carry holy cause heroes ! repeated often continued part six left left attack realized dan ger past , stopped controlling relaxed moment physical pain immediately made felt heart kidneys hurt awful kidney attack rolled back forth top christmas ornaments , howling howling n't know long went figured time , later turned pain around hour strength gone burst tears , started feeling sorry , forth someone came room think hear someone calling name want respond restrain , think i'm silent , continues seems first man 's voice calling , woman 's later found mamma sent neighbor , one whose apartment hiding , uncle , place , telling , know 've killed lyuda go least bring corpse n't violate corpse went returned empty handed , mamma thought n't want carry corpse apartment sent another time , sent wife , walking rooms looking , n't answer calls light , smashed lamps started pogrom apartment around five o'clock , 9 30 went went stairs walked apartment long wait death , long cowardly , afraid \? come walked started knocking doors one next one , fifth floor , fourth , opened door third floor , landing , uncle 's son started shout , aunt , n't cry , lyuda 's alive ! knocked door came aunt tanya , igor , , mamma aunt tanya , uncle 's wife , us apartment n't see karina , home , , lying , fever marina , father mother family gathered door lost consciousness igor aunt tanya carried apartment later found done karina mamma said , lyuda , karina 's really serious condition , 's probably dying recognizes , n't cry , n't tell face looks awful though whole face paralyzed , know , everything pushed one side , eye swollen , everything flowed together , lips , though dragged right side around whole microdistrict , 's disfigured face said , fine mamma afraid go room , went hugged karina started cry went soon saw legs gave way fell near bed , hugged legs started kissing crying opened eye intact , looked , said , \? could barely talk , whole face badly beaten n't say , rather muttered something tender , something , tender , , karina , little golden one understood igor brought water , drank karina 's lips started saying something , could n't understand made , hurts , hurt hair glued blood stroked forehead , head , forehead , lips , n't know help calls hand , come closer go 's saying something , ca n't understand igor brings pencil paper says , write shakes head say , , ca n't write ca n't understand 's saying wanted tell something , could n't say , karina , lie little , maybe 'll feel better tell says , maybe 'll late completely broke , could n't control hand water wiped forehead eye water squeezed little water onto lips says , lyuda , 're saved yet , go somewhere else damned house want kill us , know 'll find us , need call urshan repeated almost whole hour , understood every word ask , 's number \? urshan , 's head administration works call n't know home number say , karina , 's number \? says , ca n't remember say , knows number \? call \? says , n't know anything , leave alone went room igor stayed watch sat , crying , say , mamma , karina says call urshan call \? knows telephone number \? tell marina , think , think , call find \? started calling several people n't answer called girlfriend , girlfriend called another girlfriend found number called us back boss 's wife answered said dacha voice keeps cracking , ca n't talk normally says , lyuda , n't panic , get hold , go tell ca n't still n't know really going said , 's easy say , n't understand 's happening killing people n't think single armenian left building , 've cut i'm even surprised managed save says , well , ok , 's serious 's thinking emotions i'm fearing life , fact 's bad ok , fine , fine , says , 're afraid , ok , soon urshan comes back 'll send called started robbing apartment directly aunt tanya 's , second floor , 's apartment n't home , staying daughter karabagh destroyed everything realized still might come back kept trying get aunt tanya urshan 's wife named tanya finally get says , yes , 's come home , 's leaving place came course n't know happening , either , brought two daughters came jeep two daughters , like going outing came saw shape going town got frightened grown daughters , 're almost age three us carried karina , tossed coat warm scarf , went car took karina maternity home , first took us po ice precinct ready soon got car put karina said serious condition must n't move , might stretcher saw 30 soldiers sitting lying first floor , , concrete floor , around eleven o'clock night left house somewhere around 1 30 saw soldiers realized war going soldiers , enemies everything like war carried office stretcher emergency medical people baku medical attendant older armenian urshan told done karina 's proud would never told aging armenian name uncle arkady , think , someone said arkady , get injection ready , started fill syringe , turned around give karina shot looked face became ill old man , sixties , hair grey , moustache , hugged karina started cry done \? ! speaking armenian done \? ! karina n't say anything mamma came , started cry , man tried calm 'll give shot mamma tells , n't need shot government \? \? look 've done children ! 're killing people , 're sitting ! standing table 're sitting drinking tea ! look 've done daughters ! look 've turned ! gave something drink , heart medicine , think gave karina injection doctor said taken maternity home immediately papa urshan , think , even though papa bad shape , helped carry karina put stretcher , none got near n't know , maybe n't came 's matter \? tone official wrapped tighter half length coat blanket , , orange one , aunt tanya 's said , i'm fine uncle arkady came soothing , told doctor , leave , let woman examine woman came , azerbaijani , believe , said , 's wrong \? wearing sister lyuda 's , sister time yerevan nursing infant cut big hole would easier breast feed baby tore night shirt showed took shoulders turned back huge wound , size hand , back , indian said something gave two shots said dressed something , 'd hospital put stretcher , started looking people carry raised head little wanted sit , woman , n't know doctor nurse , said , lie still , must n't move lying back saw two policemen leading man profile seemed familiar shouted , stop ! one policemen turned says , want \? say , bring , want look brought said , person apartment raped sister recognize , note said , fine , n't write led n't know taking put stretcher near injured beaten soldiers sitting went look ambulance driver would bring car closer one soldiers started talking , sister n't remember conversation exactly , asked lived us asked , \? said ufa apparently first brought ufa police later learned suffered says , ok , 're armenians , n't get along , i'm russian , says , trying kill \? oh , remembered something else went onto balcony hammer nails looked window saw two azerbaijanis beating soldier near kindergarten pressed fence covered head arms , beating club way cried mamma made skin crawl n't know , 's still alive something else attack house saw sheets , clothes , dishes flying third fourth floor neighboring building , n't think azerbaijanis attacking armenians thought something fire throwing something n't need , someone fighting someone later , burning passenger car yard , neighbors said armenians , realized serious , anti armenian took karina sumgait maternity home mamma went said , 've beaten , help ignored father went said guilty voice , though fault 'd beaten , says , ribs hurt much , probably broken ribs please look doctor says , 's job urshan said , fine , 'll take place need doctor , 'll find one 'll bring one look drove apartment marina stayed examined us struck doctor said azerbaijanis apartment us n't surprised beat us wanted beat us , surprised soviet medical facility woman taken oath could talk victims like happy unhappy coincidence seen doctor delivered karina , examined karina , said , problem , got pretty good like kafan , armenians killing raping women karina terrible condition could n't say anything would certainly something say ! examined story put us separate ward shots , , drugs absolutely none ! n't even give us tea women soon found ward armenians raped started coming , way people look zoo animals karina n't see , lying , kept seeing put ira b ward also raped true , n't serious bodily injuries , told happened place , felt worse us raped ira daughter room , bed happened ira holding daughter 's hand , one hiding bed beating ira taking , gold , let go daughter 's hand , daughter took hand daughter fourth grade , 's 11 years old felt really awful heard ira asked harm daughter , said , want , leave daughter alone well , wanted threatened kill daughter got way would surprised criminals behaved way night simply bartholomew 's night , say , would love every day steal , kill , rape many surprised animals n't harm children beasts explained like would repeated 15 20 years , children would grown , , put , 'll come take pleasure lives , children girls would young women 15 years thinking tomorrow sure would trial investigation , trial investigation 1915 , girls could use 15 years heard investigators one victims testified 's described natures , would still 15 20 years , 100 years said , everyone surprised n't harm marina many people say either drunk smoked much n't know eyes red maybe n't slept night , maybe reason , n't know n't smoking n't drunk , i'm positive , someone smoked stop nothing urge spoke cultured fashion marina little sister , n't afraid , wo n't harm , n't look , might frightened 're muslim , muslim woman n't see things really quite sober came story alive every day lived since happened bears mark day n't even day , several hours father still ca n't look us eyes still feels guilty happened karina , mother , nerves 's started talk ing , 've heard argue several times thought one listening listen , 'll say , could \? could alone , could protect \? n't know find words , 's i'm happy , glad n't see happen 's thing spared us maybe happened chance course knows , 's way could imagine every last detail happened many conversations karina spoke together private , talked mamma , father never present conversations spare , say investigator comes house , n't speak father present february 29 , next clay , karina discharged hospital first released , since martial law declared city , soldiers took police precinct armored personnel carrier many people , armenian victims met family learned rafik uncle grant died sure died talking raya , rafik 's wife grant 's daughter , mother , crying took us office first floor yard 's little one room house outside , recreation reading area took us women afraid go thought us police precinct become dangerous even people working precinct wanted hide women shouting explained want hide better 's possible attack police precinct went little house chairs tables children us hungry even infants needed changed one anything awful kept us 24 hours window one room house could see azerbaijanis standing fences around police precinct , though spying us police precinct surrounded wall , like fence , 's , standing wall , means electricity shut brought great psychological pressure bear us , particularly n't walked apartments , n't slept 24 hours , 48 , suffered physically spiritually , ones lost family members us another ordeal especially frightened precinct employees suddenly disappeared could n't see single person , courtyard windows thought must already hiding building , must secret room people panicking started throwing one another 's way sinking ship heard people , mainly young people , whistling whopping walls felt end approaching completely terrified left karina hospital n't know parents sort calm parents , thinking karina , , heaven forbid , attack hospital , would immediately tell armenian , something terrible would happen karina , would n't able take soldiers dogs appeared saw dogs people climbed fence brought another 30 soldiers machine guns readiness , fingers triggers calmed little brought us chairs brought children little showed us could wash hands , took children toilet sat hungry , honest , would never occurred us n't eaten two days people eat , closer , brought group detained criminals watched soldiers guard dogs one men came back courtyard told us raya like different woman substituted earlier crying , wailing , calling oh , rafik ! , heard rage came ! jumped , coat , started roll sleeves like getting ready beat someone suddenly soldiers , dogs , lots people ran bandits standing hands heads facing wall went one grabbed collar started shake thrash ! , second , third everyone rooted spot one soldiers moved , one went help made stop bandits fell covered heads hands , something came back sat , something akin smile appeared face became quiet tears , cries round went back beat walking cursing terribly take , , killed husband , bastards , , came back sat probably whole night , well , n't really night , one slept went five six times beat returned told women , sitting \? killed husbands children , raped , 're sitting 're sitting talking though nothing happened n't armenians \? appealed everyone , one got numb , n't strength beat anyone , could barely hold , since standing many hours released eleven o'clock morning already ten night n't enough chairs , really elderly women children sat feet whole time nothing breathe , door closed , men smoking situation deplorable eleven o'clock night policemen came us , local policemen , azerbaijanis said , get 've brought , wash put children bed women n't want leave place , either place become like home , safe , soldiers dogs anyone went outside , soldiers would say , oh , 's little family , things like soldiers felt love , probably , first time lives perceived defenders everyone spoke heart , cried , hugged , loaded machine guns hands , said , grandmother , must n't approach , i'm guard people would say , oh , 's right hugged , one woman even one machine guns terribly moving small children kept wanting pet dogs took us second floor said , sleep n't afraid , precinct guard , 's quiet city 29th , killing going block places told armenians gathered sk club city party committee took us way asked stop maternity home wanted take karina n't know happening told , n't worry , maternity home full soldiers , mothers rest assured say , well , wo n't rest assured regardless , staff capable anything arrived city party committee turned karina already brought seen fit release tal , deciding felt fine longer need care city party committee gave free reign tears met acquaintances , everyone somehow divided two groups , n't injured , clothed , brought pot food , , , like , like raya , wearing whatever come way even people made , like come wedding people without shoes , naked people , hungry people , crying , lost someone course stories talk flying oh , heard killed ! mean killed ! stayed work ! know 's happening plant \? talk like met aleksandr , teacher know well respect highly 've known long time small room , well really like study room spent whole night talking study march 1 heard bagirov first secretary communist party azerbaijan ssr arrived everyone ran see bagirov , news brought viewed outside arrived everyone went talk ask things everyone tremendous rage protected soldiers , went second floor n't deign speak people apparently important things several hours passed called says , , find another two three 're going make lists , asked upstairs , lists dead , whose whereabouts unknown , lists people pogroms apartments whose cars burned 50 people list called said , lyuda , mamma arrived , 's looking , n't believe alive well 're gave lists someone asked continue went list imprecise , course included grant , raya 's father , alive , time thought dead engels grigorian 's father aunt , maria list also included name girlfriend neighbor , one guys said told chopped head courtyard front kosmos movie theater put list , cried , later turned rumor , fact hour earlier somehow left sumgait marina set sail , , thank god , alive well also say addition died list contained people rumored missing badly wounded given dead 3 lists taken bagirov n't remember many dead contained list , 's fact came couple minutes later cursing terribly irate asked , 's going \? said , lyuda , imagine animals , ! say lost list dead member central committee communist party ussr arrived , supposed submit list , 'd see scope slaughter , tragedy , whether one fifty told list disappeared ask everyone n't left khimik boarding house 26 people second list think number 26 one got press onto television radio , 's list got remember exactly 26 people list , even told aleksandr half first list said , lyuda , please , try remember least one could n't remember anyone else 30 dead certain government procuracy n't count people died , like sick people old people whose lives threatened shock n't registered victims sumgait tragedy may people n't know many people left sumgait march 1 8 ! left smaller towns russia , especially northern caucasus , stavropol , territory n't information know people set parts around moscow woman farmer call people know milk cows , mechanics , drivers , know whole group people went help also clearly list people died entering city , burned cars one knows , except azerbaijanis , hardly likely say anything 's great many people raped included list drawn procuracy know three instances sure , course n't know i'm thinking three women whose parents chose publicize happened , , n't take matter court , simply left n't cease victims one first cousin classmate lived microdistrict 8 , fifth floor ca n't tell building number n't know name comes neighbor one relatives , lived microdistrict 1 near gift shop n't know name , lives landing sumgait procurator beat father , holding door daughter hid , could n't hold door forever , climbed balcony neighbors' seized like azerbaijanis saying , cultured mob , n't kill anyone , raped left third one n't remember third one anymore transferred us march 1 karina still n't yes , lived days sk , cultural facility , khimik lived lived city party committee could n't stay karina difficult , peace survived could already walk , really honest words held thanks social work , managed persevere aleksandr said , n't work would go insane put gear took everything upon someone infant needed free food , went get first days bought everything , although received free supposed free charge , sold us , found free , went time , fortunately , could still drop see like neighbor , since everything still clearly visible faces sent captain resolved issue march 2 sent two investigators see us andrei vladimir way worked , family considered karina victims , maybe wound hospital mother father considered witnesses , victims involved karina 's case , , mine told everything , planned sit record everyone could remember everything still fresh mind n't work last day conditions n't investigative group worked slowly poor quality work solely situation n't conducive working n't enough automobiles , especially time curfew , typing transcripts , still video cameras think done purpose 're poor ca n't supply investigators stuff done especially draw investigation , since local authorities saw armenians leaving speed light , never return sumgait armenians lot say came agreement , told , n't worry , takes us month two months , 'll i'm afraid , looked death eyes five times two days , 'll help conduct investigation worked together great deal , used shelter karina , gave much n't time get , would least week two get back self difficulty breathing looked doctor take x rays could n't eat drink nine days , n't eat drank virtually nothing five days , fifth day , baku already , investigator told , long go like \? well fine , n't want eat , n't love , 're taking care , gave word would see investigation need started eating , fact exhausted n't enough kept seeing faces apart ment mind , every day went investigative solitary confinement cells prisons n't know everywhere ! probably every prison city baku solitary confinement cells sumgait time even turned drunk tank solitary confinement thus far identified 31 people apartment mamma identified three , karina , two total 36 marina n't identify anyone , remembers faces two three , n't among photographs detained told neighbor recognized one went axe still n't detained , 's still loose 's gone , 's clear found n't know first last name know building lived know faces 's city investigators informed even investigation closed even trial continue looking 31 people identified largely blue collar workers various plants , without education , lowest level every respect mostly ages range 20 30 years one 48 one student attending azerbaijan petroleum chemical institute sumgait , mother kept trying bribe tor , thinking employee victim , said front 'll set restaurant worth 500 rubles give 600 cash simply keeping armenia , , keep landing prison armenian soil 're terribly afraid , investigator talking criminal criminal n't confess even though identified , tell order apply psychological pressure say , fine , n't confess , keep silent 're armenian prison , find , 'll take care short order somehow gets many give start talk investigators apartment videotaped entire pogrom apartment , investigative experiment saw way left apartment even without knowing apartment , could guess stole , example , money valuables , n't take single book tore , burned , poured water , hacked axes materials 27th congress communist party soviet union james cooper 's last oh yes , lunch ready , boiling chicken , lemons tea table apartment , chicken lemons gone 's enough tell kind people apartment , people n't even know anything books n't take single book , take worn clothing , food , even cheapest cheap , worn slippers identified , four kafan azerbaijanis living sumgait basically , group went seeking revenge let 's use word joined people seeking easy gain thrill talked one gray eyes , somehow back drop black remembered specifically eyes besides taking part pogrom apartment , also involved murder building 16 older armenian recently arrived georgia , lived alone anyone sumgait n't know last name like , maybe married azerbaijani laid eyes woman twice , know nothing know murdered apartment axe murdering n't enough hacked pieces threw tub water remember another guy really well , also rather fair skinned know , people apartment darker dark , hair skin contrast , addition grey eyed one , remember one fellow , one l took lezgin identified turned eduard grigorian , born city sumgait , convicted twice one remember \? name rita tattooed left right hand kept thinking , rita , would read word latin characters instead cyrillic , cyrillic one looks like latin led sat hands behind back confrontation swore every holy book , tried put armenian word try spark compassion , told making mistake , called dear sister said , 're wrong , could , armenian , raise hand , armenian , spoke even investigator asked , lyuda , sure \? told , 'll tell one identifying mark i'm wrong shall apologize say mistaken name rita tattooed left right hand went rigid became pale told , put hands table put hands table palms said , turn hands , n't turn hands start acknowledged guilt said n't wanted , forced something else , would treated somewhat differently stuck story , , anything , n't turned hands name rita fact tattooed hand face distorted something wicked immediately flew rage ashtray table , really heavy one , made granite something , large , ashes butts catching quite surprise , hurled ashtray ashtray hit wall , ashes butts rained head back smiled smiled provoked n't know , jumped table us started either pounding longer remember jumped caught microphone cord investigator , longer recall last name , says , , 's japanese microphone ! please shut equipment spot , video taped took away stayed , talked little calm , needed go working , remember telling , 're ! performance ! said , , honestly beforehand would always tell , lyuda , emotion speak calmly nothing happened say , n't strength emotion emotions behind , longer strength n't strength anything says , lyuda , able \? returned normal , drinking tea watching tape , said , really jumped table \? never jumped high gym class could say gang took apartment international 36 identified armenian , russian , vadim , beat mamma , 34 azerbaijanis second meeting grigorian , completely confessed guilt , told february 27 azerbaijanis come knocking among guys call guys knew prison said , tomorrow 're going armenians meet us bus station three o'clock said , , i'm coming told , n't come 'll kill said , alright , 'll come went also went visit classmate microdistrict , also prison think together either stolen motorcycle one get parts needed called apartment told thing tomorrow 're going get armenians said , pulled knife said , i'm going courtyard 27th stabbed several times , stomach taken hospital know hospital baku , republic hospital known would idea come 28th 'll return grigorian , apartment remember beat along rest spoke azerbaijani extremely well fair skinned , maybe led think , later proved took part beating burning shagen n't know participated rapes apartment n't see , n't remember people apartment n't yet know armenian said n't know confessed , n't recall blacked often think n't participate rape karina apartment whole time carried courtyard , remained apartment one point talking acquaintance edik grigorian learned wife , mother russian , n't father , 's convicted twice well third , hope , last sentence beat wife , eternally coming work bruises wife armenian name rita others detained well 're little beasts really ca n't call beasts , 're little beasts robots carrying someone else 's , investigation said , n't understand could done , head know around prepared , 's name allah , name koran , name islam 's holy 's everything commanded saw n't minds , i'm talking level cultural sophistication higher values education , work , slew children without means raise properly , crowd , like temporary housing , apparently , promised slaughtered armenians would receive apartments went many explained participation saying , promised us apartments among one genuinely repented sure repented heart despised incident worked children 's home , azerbaijani , two children , wife works children 's home everything acquired , everything earned labor , n't inherited parents grandparents said , n't need anything n't know ended like hand guiding , strength , masculine dignity , nothing whole time kept repeating , imagine someone young wife right eyes sat leader eskimo coat detained performed marvelous disappearing act , think 'll get onto , work little , vadim , boy , according grandfather , touch young person taught , cover tracks constantly exchanging jackets boys knew n't , either , things well , changed like would n't get onto , detained one eskimo coat aleksandr gambarian murdered came said , let 's go , enough , 've spilled enough blood maybe karina n't know reason n't finish hoping take home heard aunt tanya sons , , courtyard near entryway liked much , decided take home karina came one point n't remember yet , neighbors old saw one around , started crawling entryway saw still alive came back , already third entryway , way came back started beating finish come would sustained lesser bodily injuries , would beat less older woman building , aunt , azerbaijani , lay top karina , crying pleading leave alone , flung woman 's grown sons right nearby picked hands led home cried loudly swore god earth , sees everything , wo n't forgive another woman , , aunt fatima , sick , aging woman first floor , 's already retired mountain , azerbaijanis , , custom men fighting , throw scarf feet stop trampled scarf sent home trample scarf tantamount woman 's honor investigation going , lot behind us gotten back little , think could events called sumgait tragedy happen \? come \? start \? could avoided \? well , 's clear without signal , without permission top leadership , would happened , i'm afraid say , azerbaijanis , let worthy people take offense , better representatives nations , let take offense , azerbaijanis majority people kept line fear law , fear retribution done law said could , like unleashed dogs afraid would n't time everything , threw one thing next able get done , bit smell danger already air february 27 could tell something going happen everyone figured took steps avoid running gangs many left , got plane tickets end country , got far away legs would carry february 27 saturday teaching third class director came classroom said let children , call city party committee asking teachers gather meeting lenin square well , excused children , teachers left school , altogether three women , director , six seven men rest already gone home got lenin square great many people around five thirty six evening , later saying kinds rubbish podium crowd supporting , roaring spoke microphone happened kafan days earlier driver bus going district recently thrown small azerbaijani child bus speaker affirmed eyewitness , seen crowd started rage death armenians ! must killed ! woman went stage n't see woman people podium like flies could hear woman introduced coming kafan , said armenians cut breasts , called , sons , avenge daughters ! enough portion people square took running direction factories , toward beginning lenin street stood hour director school 25 spoke , gave nationalist speech said , brother muslims , kill armenians ! repeated every sentence said crowd supported , whistling shouting karabagh ! said , karabagh territory whole life long , karabagh soul tear heart \? though azerbaijani would die without karabagh 's territory , armenians never see armenians must eliminated time immemorial muslims cleansed land infidel armenians , time immemorial , 's way nature created , every 20 30 years azerbaijanis cleanse land filth filth meant armenians heard n't listening speeches closely many people spoke stood back podium , talking shop teachers , somehow went right , n't penetrate , fact something serious taking place , one teachers said , listen 's saying , listen idiocy 's spouting , listened speech director listened woman 's speech right group nine us mood changed , subject conversation school matters forgotten director studies , great respect , 's azerbaijani considered upstanding worthy person , need obtain leave asked , seemed like good person tells , lyuda , know besides armenians square \? find 're armenian 'll tear pieces tell 're armenian \? tell 're armenian \? said first time pretended hear , asked second time turned director , , said already eight , expected home , leaving answered , , said women stay ten o'clock , men , twelve stay young teacher us , children kindergarten husband worked shifts asked leave left children kindergarten director excused let go turned around , said , good bye , left young teacher , azerbaijani n't see walking buses n't running , crowd rally ran nearby us apparently gotten fired must become much , wanted seek vengeance immediately , rushed n't afraid time sure teacher would n't say armenian make short , reached home karina told movies happened started telling experience parents n't understand danger watched television usual , n't even imagine tomorrow would last day 's city party committee met acquaintance , went school together , , n't remember last name , lives store narimanov street father , reason n't mother two home alone father held door jumped third floor , lucky ground wet n't anyone behind building went balcony , one , standing near entryway building also lucky one murders jumped jumped n't feel pain heat moment days later found could n't stand , injured somehow 's people sumgait saved lives , honor , children way could possible , armenians fought back father 's first cousin , armen , lives block 30 found phone one victims going town armenians building called one another immediately armed axes , knives , even went roof took infants , old women bed god knows many months , got right beds took everyone upstairs hooked electricity trap door roof waited , ready fight took daughter school board director hostage , 's azerbaijani lived building called school board director told n't help , 17 armenians roof , escape alive unharmed , 'd never see daughter i'm sure , course , armenians would never lay hand woman , thing could saved time called police armenians made deal local police go town two armored personnel carriers soldiers summoned surrounded entryway led everyone roof , side armored personnel carriers crowd way building moment , block 30 's defended heard neighbors , roman sasha gambarian , resisted 're big , strong guys father killed heard brothers put strong defense lost father , able save mother one neighbors told happened , looking criminals march 1 2 everyone suspected , people hid people entryway , maybe people injured perhaps dead neighbors afraid go , went soldiers basement supposed found azerbaijani corpses n't know many even wounded put , two days would died loss blood infection basement filled water heard neighbors later talking investigators subject came confirmed know , , several hours basement used store objects stolen apartment neighbor carried carpet , along rest stole , posing one criminals everyone taking share , neighbor took , , carried home came back , everything seemed calmed , returned , saying thing managed save raya 's husband father defended defended , armenian families sure azerbaijani victims , although 'll never hear anything reason government n't want say armenians victims , defended honor sisters mothers , tv show viewpoint military man , officer , said armenians virtually nothing defend 's important , truth come regardless 's price paid three days three days courage , , humanity tested three days , years dozens years lived , showed 've become , grew three days showed conclude narrative sumgait tragedy said 's yet , trials still ahead us , punishments received violated us , wanted make us depend position work investigators , procuracy , literally every person lent hand tion 's price paid live armenia , fear going street night , afraid say 're armenians , fear speaking native tongue october 15 , 1988 yerevan reference 008 1 sumgait tragedy pogroms armenians soviet azerbaijan , volume , eyewitness accounts , edited samuel shahmuradian , forward yelena bonner , 1990 , published aristide caratzas , ny , pages 118 145 david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org explain turkish troops p center regional studies armenian border , ca n't p box 382761 even explain 1915 \? cambridge , 02238 turkish mp , march 1992
center policy research cpr igc apc org subject final solution gaza \? nf id r cdp 1483500354 cdp 000 nf cdp uucp ! cpr apr 26 17 36 00 1993 lines 38 dear folks , still awaiting sensible answer comment fact inhabitants gaza entitled normal life kept occupation israel since 1967 without civil political rights fact gazans live country , palestine gaza foriegn country , jaffa , , foreign country gazans places occupied far palestinians concerned far common sense fact zionists deny gazans equal rights israeli citizens right determine government zionists begin consider gazans human beings deserve rights , hope peace somebody mentioned gaza therefore israel entitled close borders gaza case , gaza entitled , deny israeli civilians military personnel enter area relation symmetrical , master slave , label inaccurate misleading close 700 , 000 people strip , deny means subsistence means defending , collective punishment crime neither justifiable legal reflects abyss israeli society would like ask heap foul explain israel denies gazans born brought jaffa return live \? would allowed , converted judaism \? right live former town upon religion ethnic origin \? please give honest answer elias
center policy research cpr igc apc org subject desertification negev nf id r cdp cdp 000 272 nf cdp uucp ! cpr apr 26 17 41 00 1993 lines 10 , think bedouin surprised posted article , would happy feedback bedouin readers , cannot judge accuracy article , assumes fabrication critical review would helpful elias
vma cc nd edu subject hate filled newsgroup ! ! ! ! organization bullwinkle fan club lines 5 group real \? honestly ca n't believe expect concerns taken remotely seriously behave way forum discussion n't ever occur write letters like majority group 're mind hypocritical \?
b8ha b8ha musicb mcgill ca subject israel 's expansion ii lines 24 nntp posting host vm1 mcgill ca organization mcgill university article 1993apr22 et tudelft nl avi duteinh et tudelft nl \( avi cohen stuart \) writes article 93111 225707pp3903a auvm american edu , paul h pimentel pp3903a auvm american edu gives isreal right keep jeruseleum \? home muslim well jewish religion , among others heck , nobody ever mentions yitza k shamir forty fifty years ago terrorize westerners much way abdul nidal today seems isrealis nowhere arabs , theref ore right jerusaleum much isreal one big difference israel arabs , christians respect israel allows freedom religion avi avi , information , islam permits freedom religion compulsion religion judaism permit freedom religion \( e non jews recognized judaism \) wondering steve
mach1 wlu ca \( craig brown u \) subject pbs frontline iran bomb organization wilfrid laurier university lines 93 article 389 ccu umanitoba ca ee umanitoba ca \( \) writes would like share netters points picked pbs frontline program regarding iran 's nuclear activities , aired tuesday april 13 sake brevity , 'll present separate points already say week cbc 1 many western programs , program laid bed misinformation throughout program , maximize effect program viewer follows yeah , thought full lies west number martyrs sacred defense iraqi aggression officially announced 117 , 000 even radical counter revolutionary groups claim iran iraq total one million dead , program claims iran alone one million dead left war translation iranian talks 100 true example iranian head atomic energy says hurts see iran subject unfriendly propaganda translator says hurts see iran unfriendly research ! 2 almost alleged devices material bought planned bought iranians countless dual usage , program tries undermine non military uses , without reference iran 's big population inevitable need sources energy near future current deficit electrical power hell would oil rich \( potential exploited \) spend billions nuclear energy programme \? 3 whole program trying show university technology nuclear research center , even program know well country like iran without tightly closed society one make nuclear bomb university ! taking account scientific advancement u engineering fields potential role improvement iran 's industries eventually lives people , obvious persuading countries prevent helping university ones scientific industrial efforts 4 key point program 's justifications trying much possible efforts done iaea numerous visits iran 's different sites say sure places visited iaea real ones ! , rely iaea 's reports observation , failed see iraq 's nuclear activities n't know iraq trying build nuclear weapons ! yeah , every reason world trust iranian regime , 've forward us past 5 extremely personal opinion , disgusting aspect program arrogance member us senate foreign affairs , william , way talking , god talking absolute knowledge ! maybe god ! hope iranians aware gradual buildup country western media , hope iranian authorities continue wise calculated approach regard international affairs peaceful friendly nations ! mohammad international atomic energy agency
eldar fraser sfu ca \( danny eldar \) subject pbs frontline documentary memory camps organization simon fraser university , burnaby , b c , canada lines 13 yesterday , watched outstanding documentary pbs prepared frontline documentary called memory camps shows un censored pictures taken immediately liberation bergen death camps recommend everybody check pbs station broadcast must see documentary , vancouver area 9 broadcast documentary monday 01 30 also order copy pbs video 1 800 cost 59 95 danny
jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) subject deir yassin organization department redundancy department lines 21 article 1993apr24 1485 cs rit edu bdm cs rit edu \( brendan mckay \) writes article morrow stanford edu forsythe stanford edu \( vic filler \) writes lot learn comes historical methodology 's true try learn people know , useless anyone n't agree , definitions , useless fart like text disputes findings always described flawed biased words , trumpet things like dismiss might 've seen play games long time one thing sure comes useless , sure know 're talking jake livni jake bony1 bony com ten years , george bush american occupied new york replaced jimmy carter opinions employer opinions standard failed president
jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) subject final solution gaza \? organization department redundancy department lines 54 article 1483500354 igc apc org cpr igc apc org \( center policy research \) writes gaza strip , tiny area land highest population density world , cut world weeks another cpr non fact israeli occupier decided punish whole population gaza , 700 000 people , denying right leave strip seek work israel actually , free leave seek work egypt , except egyptians n't want , either going blame gazans establish state gaza palestine \? polish non jews risked lives save jews ghetto , israeli jew known risked life help gazan resistance help given gazans israeli jews , dozens people , humanitarian assistance actually , one jew risk life help gazan arabs hacked death palestinean murderers last week seems risk primarily arabs need help also true telephone , traders seek buy agricultural products gazans , israeli soldiers get involved fighting palestinean groups determined destroy destroy outsiders right gazan population resist occupation recognized international law person sense justice population denied basic human rights entitled rise wanna see try usa know 's going happen known , israeli regime considering gazans unworthy israeli citizenship equal rights israel , although considered worthy dirty work israeli hotels , shops fields many gazans born towns villages located israel may live , areas reserved master race okay 's enough i'm going read posting elias davidsson iceland jake livni jake bony1 bony com ten years , george bush american occupied new york replaced jimmy carter opinions employer opinions standard failed president
jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) subject symbiotics zionism antisemitism organization department redundancy department lines 21 article igc apc org cpr igc apc org \( center policy research \) writes first point note regarding appropriation history holocaust zionist propaganda zionism without anti semitism impossible zionism agrees basic tenet anti semitism , namely jews cannot live non jews 's zionists decided zion must gentile rein \? ! n't \? ! mean tell early zionists actually granted citizenship jewish state christian muslim people , \? seems , elias , first point note wrong , rest posting n't worth much , either ta ta jake livni jake bony1 bony com ten years , george bush american occupied new york replaced jimmy carter opinions employer opinions standard failed president
jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) subject gaza separation israel organization department redundancy department lines 33 article igc apc org center policy research cpr igc apc org writes israeli left 's inability cope challenges presented reality becomes obvious moments reality line expectations left able see clearly gulf war palestinian 's popular solidarity iraq , yossi sarid currently minister environment made infamous statement look ! , e , i'am making efforts speak yossi sarid 's point view , palestinian reality gulf war lengthy curfew danger hunger brought , whether palestinians accepted acceptable party similarly , mk , recently faced criticism residents west bank town government 's party 's lack action human rights peace , responded asking present discussion whether would rather likud government perspective best government government , regardless members israeli left already decided future occupied territories look , want dictate palestinians get someone starts criticizing leftists leftist enough , get pretty clear idea believe normal hope still calling fair unbiased , elias jake livni jake bony1 bony com ten years , george bush american occupied new york replaced jimmy carter opinions employer opinions standard failed president
b8ha000 b8ha musicb mcgill ca subject bb confessions lines 46 nntp posting host vm1 mcgill ca organization mcgill university article 1993apr18 thunder mcrcim mcgill edu ahmeda mcrcim mcgill edu \( ahmed abu abed \) writes article cg3 news cso uiuc edu , eshneken ux4 cso uiuc edu \( edward shnekendorf \) writes cl056 cleveland freenet edu \( hamaza h salah \) writes previous article , friedenb sapphire egr msu edu \( gedaliah friedenberg \) says interested , would like inform binyamin netanyahu \( leader israeli likud party \) interviewed cnn tonight larry king live n't guy go crying zionist tv confessing committed , cheating wife typical jew leader , huh \? yes actually , typical muslim arab leader hides fact commited adultery choosing camel husband \( small male child , whichever readily availible \) cl056 cleveland freenet edu \( h z \) ed irony jewish population problem electing leader confessed extra affair first aa else expect \? israel trying portray great democracy one requirement leader previously extra marital affair \( e g bill clinton \) helps wife says 's ok steve
mark albany edu \( mark \) subject adl spying case organization state university new york albany lines 6 n't think yigal friends much fun years , ever , 're getting adl business publicity likely generate speaker 's fees , mark
visser convex com \( lance visser \) subject israel 's expansion nntp posting host dhostwo convex com organization engineering , convex computer corp , richardson , tx , usa x disclaimer message written user convex computer corp opinions expressed user necessarily convex lines 22 1993apr19 nysernet org astein nysernet org \( alan stein \) writes golan heights serious security problem , israel obviously keep part give part \( one remember golan heights part area britain 's palestine mandate , slated become part jewish state , britain traded france considerations words , historical accident ever part syria \) palestine mandate borders borders negotiated drawn golan may list territories would liked see palestine mandate mandates came existance , defined boundaries various territories region source claims , please present
hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) subject israel 's expansion lines 147 reply hallam zeus02 desy de organization desydeutsches elektronen synchrotron , experiment zeus bei hera article 1993apr18 das harvard edu , adam endor uucp \( adam shostack \) writes article 18apr93 vm1 mcgill ca b8ha000 b8ha musicb mcgill ca writes 1 \) israel 's occupation southern lebanon temporary \? israel repeatedly stated leave lebanon lebanese government provide guarantees israel attacked lebanese soil , syrians leave acceptable syria lebanon right determine wish return situation prior french invasion part mandate territory read colony israel right determine happens lebanon invading another country consider threat precisely way almost wars aggression started 2 \) israel 's occupation west bank , gaza , golan temporary \? three different issues israel stated repeatedly give whole golan , may willing give part syria part peace agreement territorial expansion force israel already annexed areas taken 1967 war areas occupied , disputed , since governing body citizenship given residents annexed areas wanted citizenship un defines occupied recognised every nation earth \( excluding one small island \) israel keep control parts west bank , imho parts kept mountain ridge , contain arab towns , many suburbs , well overlooking city tel aviv eastern mountain ridge arabs live less militarily relevant israel also maintain presence jordan valley adam thinks peace possible continued occupation continued military presence \? completely situation usa bankrupt simply cannot afford finance israeli ecconomy money occupation \( support \) , many settlers moved territories \? temporary , let 's hear number reasons people move \( moved , chose move \) disputed areas note since moves made free willed human beings , settlers , address two aspects question , government would allow encourage move , second move moved part deliberate policy prevent return occupied territories described reasoning prince clear intention create likud could deprived land stolen indigenous population pretexts settlers aquired land much land used common public land assertion village common village depends food belongs invader simply individual title clearly excuse land used build aliens brought occupy land foreign power clear breach geneva convention stipulates land use occupied territories must changed amount self justifying part likud hard change fact majority world governments , actually power condemned practice government number reasons encouraging people move across green line included security politics first reason security large jewish presense makes difficult terrorists infiltrate jewish settlements also act times war also liability talking civilian would last hours tanks , second reason political creating settlements brought arabs negotiation table creation new towns cities gone another several years , would place left israel arab majority would land left could called arab n't fool gulf war brought israelis negotiating table us backers secure base gulf shamir negotiate else creation settlements gone longer usa would cut money supply fact hundered thousands jews place changes face peace settlement , restricts land given away chose live arab state return israel created religious built neighborhoods areas jews riots 30 's 40 's communities like hebron , gaza , also communities built near religious sites existence give right another country territory , bosnia , west bank point , many reasons people moved green line , many reasons government wanted whatever status negotiated disputed territories , nothing deal new boundaries drawn negotiation , results war unless new boundaries drawn 48 peace precious little authority agree anything else real issue land treaty trade treaty since palestinians remain heavily dependent israel indefinitely peace another factor return lands confiscated israeli state within israel dismantling shadow structures allow discrimination non jews within secular state irony return guarantee palestinian state non law order protect remaining settlers israeli state going forced position mean outlawing discrimination prevents arabs buying using much land phill hallam baker
bc744 cleveland freenet edu \( mark ira kaufman \) subject 'center policy research' organization case western reserve university , cleveland , ohio \( usa \) lines 20 nntp posting host thor ins cwru edu read numerous posts period several months , anti israel fanatic , hiding shadow respectable sounding name 'center policy research ' obviously , research center kind , unless published documents find material use israel makes labeling propaganda mill research center surprising simply part propaganda process curious anyone knew anti israel fanatic hiding behind 'research center' name arab \? typical anti semite hiding behind zionism \? ' jew perhaps lived israel could n't make , taking failure israel \? let 's shed light clown help put nonsense proper perspective readers group interested fact anti israel ignore junk
arf genesis mcs com \( jack schmidling \) subject news may missed , apr 20 organization mcsnet contributor , chicago , il lines 111 distribution world nntp posting host localhost mcs com news may missed , apr 19 , 1993 busy israelists us media spiked intrepid israeli soldiers israeli soldiers sexually taunted arab women occupied gaza strip three week long closure sealed palestinians jewish state , palestinian sources said sunday incidents occurred town khan involved soldiers brigade centre house house raids palestinian activists closure , imposed strip occupied west bank five days ago girls al secondary said group naked soldiers taunted , yelling kiss '' girls fled , soldiers threw empty bottles saturday , group soldiers opened shirts pulled pants saw girls al walking home school parents considering keeping daughters home girls school day , soldiers harassed two passing youth escaped secondary school deputy principal abu said shouted abusive language girls , backed wall , put arms around teacher hamdan abu intervened soldiers kicked beat butts rifles tuesday , troops stopped car driven abdel , moslem , demanded kiss female passenger refused , soldiers hit 18 year old passenger stop beating friday , soldiers entered home abu , 60 , blindfolded wife , put music tape recorder demanded dance elderly couple danced , soldiers slipped away coupled continued dancing grandson came asked happening army said checking reports israeli troops bar christians jerusalem israeli troops prevented christian arabs entering jerusalem thursday celebrate traditional mass last supper two arab priests greek orthodox church led 30 worshippers prayer separating occupied west bank jerusalem soldiers told people army issued permits could enter , brothers celebrating mass church holy sepulchre hoping able join prayer , '' said father george makhlouf ramallah parish israel sealed occupied lands two weeks ago palestinian attacks jews closure cut arabs west bank gaza strip jerusalem , economic , spiritual cultural centre father nicola said christians want suffer humiliation requesting permits reach holy sites makhlouf said closure discriminatory , allowing jews free movement take part recent passover celebrations restricting christian celebrations , saw jews celebrate passover without interruption cannot reach holiest sites , '' said israeli officer interrupted makhlouf 's speech , demanding see identity card ordering crowd leave revolted , drop israel 's best friend email let know think 75300 3115 compuserve com \( via compuserve \) clintonpz aol com \( via america online \) clinton hq campaign92 org \( via mci mail \) tell 'em arf sent ya tired learning american foreign policy effectively , israeli controlled media , highly recommend checking washington report free sample copy available calling american education trust \( 800 \) 368 tell 'em arf sent js
shaig think com \( shai guday \) subject investment yehuda shomron organization thinking machines corporation , cambridge , usa lines 30 distribution world nntp posting host composer think com article netcom com , horen netcom com \( jonathan b horen \) writes applaud investing money yehuda , shomron , , order create jobs residents , find deplorable never active policy israeli administration since 1967 , regard jewish residents past governments found funds subsidize cheap \( read affordable \) housing requisite infrastructure , investment creating industry \( would generated income jobs \) \? investment form huge tax breaks , employer overlooking difference could made company part problem industries interested political settling , much profit 26 years , yehuda shomron remain barren , bereft even middle sized industries , jewish settlements sterile bedroom communities , havens \( main \) israelis \( secular religious \) work tel aviv jerusalem cannot afford live either city surrounding suburbs true , leads obvious question , investment made taxpayer 's expense obviously , answer still resounding shai guday stealth bombers , os software engineer thinking machines corp winged ninjas skies cambridge ,
shaig think com \( shai guday \) subject israel 's expansion organization thinking machines corporation , cambridge , usa lines 39 distribution world nntp posting host composer think com article 18apr93 vm1 mcgill ca , b8ha000 b8ha musicb mcgill ca writes couple questions pro israeli lobby 1 \) israel 's occupation southern lebanon temporary \? mr stein working proof israel diverting water jordan river \( away lebanese territory \) yes , evidenced previous two stages withdrawal area reductions troops currently troops kept level consistent light armored patrols permanent installations built area , planned prodigal water question , continue waste time looking non existent proof , accept testimony people , lebanese , acknowledged know evidence allegations 2 \) israel 's occupation west bank , gaza , golan temporary \? \( support \) , many settlers moved territories \? temporary , let 's hear depends territories refer general , settlers moved territories time , context situations , seemed logical move say views n't change mistakes made currently , would say disputed territory appear temporary eastern northern jerusalem steve shai guday stealth bombers , os software engineer thinking machines corp winged ninjas skies cambridge ,
pgf5 cunixb cc columbia edu \( peter garfiel freeman \) subject israel 's expansion nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply pgf5 cunixb cc columbia edu \( peter garfiel freeman \) organization columbia university lines 31 usa bankrupt simply cannot afford finance israeli ecconomy money occupation n't fool gulf war brought israelis negotiating table us backers secure base gulf shamir negotiate else phill hallam baker oh , expose ignorance \? us running debt past four generations still financed pleases gulf war , israel could whatever wanted iraq scud attacks encouraged , means forced , negotiate mr baker , address points would impossible , nutshell , hypocritical attack israel 's presence lebanon without attacking syria syrian occupation hostile , amounts annexation israel 's clearly defensive defensive , would see lebanon occupied , governed israel israel wants pete
cpr igc apc org \( center policy research \) subject israeli press madness lines 8 nf id r cdp cdp 000 151 nf cdp uucp ! cpr apr 17 15 37 00 1993 getting excited implying posting fabrications , would suggest readers consult newspaper question , elias
center policy research cpr igc apc org subject unconventional peace proposal nf id n cdp 1483500348 000 5967 nf cdp uucp ! cpr apr 18 07 24 00 1993 lines 131 center policy research cpr subject unconventional peace proposal unconventional proposal peace middle east elias davidsson following proposal based following assumptions 1 fundamental human rights , right life , education , establish family children , human dignity , right free movement , free expression , etc important human existence rights states 2 event conflict basic human rights rights , basic human rights prevail 3 defining jewish israeli palestinian arab , however labelled , unresolved conflict exists 4 conflict caused great sufferings millions people moreover relations communities , peoples nations 5 year , united states billions dollars economic military aid conflicting parties 6 attempts solve israeli arab conflict traditional political means failed 7 long conflict perceived two distinct ethnical religious communities peoples claim land , peaceful solution possible 8 love human beings capitalized sake peace justice people love , share stated assumptions , state proposal 1 fund established would disburse grants child born couple one partner israeli jew palestinian arab 2 entitled grant , couple prove one partners possesses entitled israeli citizenship law return partner , although born areas current control , entitled citizenship law return 3 first child , grant amount 18 000 second third child , 12 000 child subsequent child , grant amount 6 000 child 4 fund would financed variety sources shown interest promoting peaceful solution israeli arab conflict , including u government , jewish christian organizations u great number governments international organizations 5 emergence considerable number 'mixed' marriages israel palestine , would relatives 'both sides' divide , would make conflict lose ethnical unsoluble core strengthen emergence truly civil society existence strong 'mixed' stock people would also help integration israeli society middle east graceful manner objections proposal certainly voiced attempt identify 1 idea providing financial incentives selected forms partnership marriage , conventional however , based concept affirmative action , recognized legitimate form public policy reverse perverse effects segregation discrimination international law clearly permits affirmative action aimed reducing racial discrimination segregation 2 may objected israeli palestinian conflict primarily religious ethnical conflict , conflict settler society indigenous society regain freedom armed struggle objection based assumption zionism ideology practice , israeli jewish society members defeated objection merit fulfill first two assumptions concerning fundamental human rights collective rights \( see \) 3 fundamentalist jews would certainly object use financial incentives encourage point view , continued existence specific jewish people overrides consideration , human love , peace human rights president world jewish congress , edgar , reflected view years ago interview gave der spiegel , german magazine called increasing assimilation jews world calamity , comparable effects holocaust objection merit either fulfill first two assumptions \( see \) 4 may objected people israel palestine , would request grants would thus serve purpose objection one might respond although possible determine certainty effect proposal , existence fund would help mixed couples resist pressure respective societies encourage young couples reject fundamentalist racist attitudes 5 may objected fund would need great sums bring substantial demographic changes objection merits however , must remembered huge sums , 3 billion , expended year united states government u organizations maintain elusive peace middle east armaments mere fraction sums would suffice launch proposal create favorable climate towards existence 'mixed' marriages israel palestine , thus encouraging emergence non society worn torn land would thankful critical comments proposal well dissemination proposal meaningful discussion enrichment elias davidsson post box 1760 121 reykjavik , iceland
francesca benson fourd com subject serdar organization 4th dimension bbs lines 5 nntp posting host cs utexas edu loser ! ! ! ! system fourd com phone 617 494 0565 cute quote computer means never say 're sorry
francesca benson fourd com subject serdar organization 4th dimension bbs lines 7 nntp posting host cs utexas edu hey serdar , retarded \? system fourd com phone 617 494 0565 cute quote computer means never say 're sorry
francesca benson fourd com subject serdar organization 4th dimension bbs lines 7 nntp posting host cs utexas edu anal retentive wimp system fourd com phone 617 494 0565 cute quote computer means never say 're sorry
maler vercors imag fr \( oded maler \) subject binyamin netanyahu cnn tonight nntp posting host organization imag , university grenoble , france lines 16 seen guess would liked represents worst american israeli politics matter taste famous confession , currently believed \( least people \) affair invented order impress voters \( poor jealous \) appear real man oded maler , lgi imag , bat , b p , grenoble , france phone fax e mail maler imag fr
henrik quayle kpc com subject armenia says could shoot turkish planes organization none lines 21 article 1993apr17 185118 10792 ee rochester edu , terziogl ee rochester edu \( esin terzioglu \) writes article 1993apr16 195452 urartu sdpa org dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) writes 04 16 93 1045 armenia says could shoot turkish planes let translate everyone else public traslation service gets armenia getting itchy esin let clearify mr turkish armenia getting itchy simply letting world know longer sit quiet let turks get away famous tricks armenians remember turkish invasion greek island cypress world simply watched
francesca benson fourd com subject get life organization 4th dimension bbs lines 11 nntp posting host cs utexas edu hey serdar , nationality anyway \? supreme geek usenet totally useless futile life computer mr wimpy coward predict spend rest useless , life usenet wasted life system fourd com phone 617 494 0565 cute quote computer means never say 're sorry
dbd urartu sdpa org \( david davidian \) subject accounts anti armenian human right azerbaijan 009 summary prelude current events nagorno karabakh organization p center regional studies lines 262 accounts anti armenian human right azerbaijan 009 prelude current events nagorno karabakh six burned people , small corpse burned child gruesome suffered tremendous shock ten people , doctor duty said numbers taken baku woman 's corpse , well , part body hacked part woman 's body something terrible deposition roman gambarian born 1954 senior engineer sumgait automotive transport production association resident building 17 , apartment 40 microdistrict 3 sumgait azerbaijan happened sumgait great tragedy , awful tragedy us , armenian people , mankind genocide armenians took place peacetime great tragedy personally , lost father days still young born 1926 day , february 28 , home course heard unrest town , younger brother aleksandr told us n't think thought everything would happen outdoors , would n't go people 's apartments five o'clock saw large crowd near kosmos movie theater microdistrict sitting home watching television go balcony see crowd pour mir street right near downtown , next airline ticket office , house right nearby day group policeman shields threw rocks policemen moved direction building burned motorcycle courtyard started shouting armenians come building switched light turns , signal opposite turn light meant azerbaijani home , course , n't know thought saw lights would come apartment suddenly 's pounding door go door , four us four us apartment father , mother , younger brother aleksandr , born 1959 father veteran world war ii fought china soviet far east pilot went door started pounding harder , breaking axes start talk azerbaijani , 's going \? 's happened \? say , armenians , get ! n't open door , say , leave , 'll leave , 'll leave tomorrow say , , leave , get , armenian dogs , get ! 've broken door lock hinge sides hold best , father one side , mother brother prepared several hammers axe apartment , grabbed could find defend broke door door gave way , held another half hour neighbors , police one city government came aid whole time held door started smash door lock side , first axe , door gave way tore hinges sasha hit one axe axe flew hands also axes , , pipes , special rods made armature shafts one hit father head pressure mob immense retreated room , one hit mother , , left part face brother sasha fought back , course sasha quite strong hot tempered , champion sumgait hammers hands , injured several bandits heads eyes , went , injured ones , fell back , others came take places , many door fell angle mob tried remove door , go second room continue finish us father brought gave sasha flew saw father bleeding face covered blood , wounded head , whole face bloody threw saw threw mob drove back ones hall , drove third floor came landing , group bandits remained one rooms smashing furniture , closed door behind started tearing door chase away remaining ones finish man , imposing man 40 , azerbaijani , came coming , father fell mother flew , started cry jumped onto balcony started calling ambulance , mob started throwing stones windows kitchen live fourth floor one came went room seemed man leader group dressed hat trench coat fur collar addressed mother azerbaijani 's , woman , shouting \? happened \? shouting like \? says , mean , happened \? killed somebody ! father musician , played clarinet , played many weddings , armenian azerbaijani , played many years everyone knew mother says , person killed played thousands azerbaijani weddings , brought much joy people , killed person says , n't need shout , stop shouting heard voice man , 15 18 people room opened door started running chased , ran away man left , later told , downstairs one told others , n't know , told firearms , even though fought hammers axe raced father started massage heart , already late asked neighbors call ambulance ambulance never came , although waited evening night somewhere around midnight 15 policemen came informed us said , heard group place , condolences told us touch anything left father lay room stayed home us took hammer knife sat home well , say , descend us 'll defend somewhere around one o'clock morning two people came sumgait procuracy , investigators say , leave everything , 're coming back soon bring expert record photograph everything people came republic procuracy , one helped us take father away morning came neighbors arrived wanted take father away somehow called procuracy police couple times , one came called ambulance , nobody came one neighbors said bandits coming place hide secured door somehow left father room went neighbor 's excesses began morning bandits came several vehicles , panel trucks , threw vehicles like landing force near center town building located right crowd formed started fighting soldiers , buildings 19 20 , 's next airline ticket office , started breaking armenian apartments , destroying property , stealing armenians n't home , managed flee hide somewhere poured direction building shouting armenians left fourth floor , meaning us 're , still , let 's go kill ! broke furniture remaining two rooms , threw outside , burned large fires hiding one floor something heavy fell sasha threw toward door shouting probably father , thrown father , defiling corpse , probably throwing fire , going burn heard , sound kind hollow , said , , 's furniture mother sasha stopped somehow , calmed mob left somewhere around eight o'clock smashed open door went apartment neighbors across us also armenians , left another city father neighbor concealing us came said , crazy \? hiding armenians \? n't 're checking apartments \? could kill ! us come , leave apartment ! went third floor , neighbors' first man n't want let us , one sons asked stayed eleven o'clock night heard sound motors neighbors said armored personnel carriers went downstairs light room left father rooms , found later , torn left one bulb bulb burning , probably signal agreed light burning every apartment microdistrict 3 pogrom help soldiers made city party committee saved salvation mother 's , brother 's , mine , purely accidental , , later found neighbors , someone crowd shouted firearms well , fought , able save mother could n't save father inflicted many injuries bandits , serious others came take places also wounded , blood , scratched got share miracle survived saved miracle troops troops n't come sumgait , slaughter would even greater probably armenians would victims genocide acquaintance city party committee able contact leadership military unit brought city , orders assigned special people accompany us , experts went ' pick father 's corpse took morgue two o'clock morning , already march 1 , raining hard quite cold , wearing suits brother carried father morgue saw burned disfigured corpses six burned people , small corpse burned child gruesome suffered tremendous shock ten people , doctor duty said numbers taken baku woman 's corpse , well , part body hacked part woman 's body something terrible morgue guarded landing force child killed ten twelve years old impossible tell boy girl corpse burned man , , several men could n't tell anything faces disfigured , awful condition two half months passed every day recall horror happened city sumgait every day father , death father , fought , people 's sorrow , especially morgue still want say 70 years passed since soviet power established , last minute could conceive happened sumgait go history i'm particularly surprised mob n't even afraid troops even fought soldiers many soldiers wounded mob threw fuel onto armored personnel carriers , setting fire n't afraid sure impunity attacked troops saw clashes february 29 near airline ticket office , right across building mob fighting soldiers inhabitants buildings , also azerbaijanis , threw rocks soldiers windows , balconies , even cinder blocks glass tanks n't afraid say sure impunity neighbors' robbing homes near airline ticket office called police number 3 20 02 said robbing armenian apartments burning homes told knew burned days one police department came anyone 's aid one came help us , either , home , even though perhaps could come saved us later found mob given free vodka drugs , near bus station rocks distributed parts town thrown used fighting think arranged advance even knew buildings apartments armenians lived , floors lists , bandits tell operation planned advance thanks , course , troops , country 's leadership , leadership ministry defense helping us , thanks russian people , majority troops russians , troops suffered losses , want express gratitude name family name armenians , name sumgait armenians coming time terrible things worse would happened mob stopped time present investigation conducted part ussr procuracy want say bandits receive possible punishment , n't , tragedy , genocide , could happen everyone see severe punishment deeds many bandits hardened took part unrest , mass disturbances mobs huge present caught , , think , judging newspaper reports around 80 people near building alone , 's many people took part pogrom building receive severe punishment others see retribution perform acts may 18 , 1988 yerevan reference 1 sumgait tragedy pogroms armenians soviet azerbaijan , volume , eyewitness accounts , edited samuel shahmuradian , forward yelena bonner , 1990 , published aristide caratzas , ny , pages 153 157 david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org explain turkish troops p center regional studies armenian border , ca n't p box 382761 even explain 1915 \? cambridge , 02238 turkish mp , march 1992
shaig think com \( shai guday \) subject unconventional peace proposal organization thinking machines corporation , cambridge , usa lines 41 distribution world nntp posting host composer think com article 1483500348 igc apc org , center policy research cpr igc apc org writes center policy research cpr subject unconventional peace proposal unconventional proposal peace middle east elias davidsson could accomplished criteria one must remember children often bring stress households alternative , one could consider financial incentives every sexual act performed two partners different ethnic backgrounds plan could entitled peace income sexual security , piss short every time israeli gets screwed palestinian visa versa , would eligible income keeping spirit times , condoms would tax deductible expense policy discriminate gender basis would apply domestic animals either nationality joint israeli teams would obligated ensure acts voluntary promptly rewarded teams palestinian israel morals patrols , , would receive percentage financial income order encourage participation add incentive locating suitable candidates would thankful critical comments proposal well dissemination proposal meaningful n't insemination \? elias davidsson post box 1760 121 reykjavik , iceland shai guday stealth bombers , os software engineer thinking machines corp winged ninjas skies cambridge ,
sgoldste aludra usc edu \( fogbound child \) subject news miss , apr 15 organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 27 nntp posting host aludra usc edu arf genesis mcs com \( jack schmidling \) writes yigal et al , sue adl title news miss \? least three front page stories l times would n't exactly call media cover js samuel mossad special agent media spiking mind control division los angeles offices pratice safe signature ! prevent dangerous signature virii ! names shouted certain dawn message summons must moment , beginning , could said somehow missed
maler vercors imag fr \( oded maler \) subject go hezbollah ! ! nntp posting host organization imag , university grenoble , france lines 31 article 1993apr15 src honeywell com , amehdi src honeywell com \( hossien amehdi \) writes way see , israelis arabs able achieve peace almost 50 years fighting following two major reasons 1 \) arab governments really representative people , currently leaders stupid , independent , dictators true , maybe worst possible see algeria 2 \) israeli government arrogant none comprising true \( may add adjective stupid \) intifada since , serious israeli leader \( including shamir \) really thinks occupied territories worth trouble question became question price quantitative detail best thing palestinians days stop intifada try live normally possible \( know , 's hard occupation \) otherwise people might think five years stone throwing \( justified may \) caused palestinians irreversible damage prevents running normal state time comes currently serves purpose 's waste human life economic resources oded maler , lgi imag , bat , b p , grenoble , france phone fax e mail maler imag fr
bf3833 pyuxe cc bellcore com \( feigenbaum , benjamin \) subject news may missed , apr 20 organization bellcore , livingston , nj summary totally unbiased magazine lines 134 article 456 genesis mcs com , arf genesis mcs com \( jack schmidling \) writes news may missed , apr 19 , 1993 busy israelists us media spiked intrepid israeli soldiers israeli soldiers sexually taunted arab women occupied gaza strip three week long closure sealed palestinians jewish state , palestinian sources said sunday incidents occurred town khan involved soldiers brigade centre house house raids palestinian activists closure , imposed strip occupied west bank five days ago girls al secondary said group naked soldiers taunted , yelling kiss '' girls fled , soldiers threw empty bottles saturday , group soldiers opened shirts pulled pants saw girls al walking home school parents considering keeping daughters home girls school day , soldiers harassed two passing youth escaped secondary school deputy principal abu said shouted abusive language girls , backed wall , put arms around teacher hamdan abu intervened soldiers kicked beat butts rifles tuesday , troops stopped car driven abdel , moslem , demanded kiss female passenger refused , soldiers hit 18 year old passenger stop beating friday , soldiers entered home abu , 60 , blindfolded wife , put music tape recorder demanded dance elderly couple danced , soldiers slipped away coupled continued dancing grandson came asked happening army said checking reports israeli troops bar christians jerusalem israeli troops prevented christian arabs entering jerusalem thursday celebrate traditional mass last supper two arab priests greek orthodox church led 30 worshippers prayer separating occupied west bank jerusalem soldiers told people army issued permits could enter , brothers celebrating mass church holy sepulchre hoping able join prayer , '' said father george makhlouf ramallah parish israel sealed occupied lands two weeks ago palestinian attacks jews closure cut arabs west bank gaza strip jerusalem , economic , spiritual cultural centre father nicola said christians want suffer humiliation requesting permits reach holy sites makhlouf said closure discriminatory , allowing jews free movement take part recent passover celebrations restricting christian celebrations , saw jews celebrate passover without interruption cannot reach holiest sites , '' said israeli officer interrupted makhlouf 's speech , demanding see identity card ordering crowd leave revolted , drop israel 's best friend email let know think 75300 3115 compuserve com \( via compuserve \) clintonpz aol com \( via america online \) clinton hq campaign92 org \( via mci mail \) tell 'em arf sent ya tired learning american foreign policy effectively , israeli controlled media , highly recommend checking washington report free sample copy available calling american education trust \( 800 \) 368 tell 'em arf sent js took advice ordered copy report heartily recommend pro israel types following reasons 1 excellent excrement use line bottom 's cage negative side effect bird somewhat warped view mideast 2 makes great april fool 's joke , e , give someone knows nothing middle east say april fools anyway , plan call every month keep getting free sample magazines \( know cheap jews \) btw , call , tell 'em barf sent kidding , ben
x mailer tmail version 1 17r c sessions dcs witsend tnet com organization nobody really subject go hezbollah ! distribution world lines 61 1993apr16 130037 18830 ncsu edu , hernlem chess ncsu edu \( brad hernlem \) wrote article 2bce0918 6105 news service uci edu , tclock orion oac uci edu \( tim clock \) writes article apr15 175334 72079 yuma acns colostate edu bh437292 lance colostate edu writes terrorist camp israelis like view villages small communities kids playing soccer streets , women preparing lunch , men playing cards , etc young men , usually aged 17 30 years members lebanese resistance even inhabitants village know , secretive , people often suspect young men supported financially iran time sneak arms ammunitions occupied zone set booby traps israeli patrols every time israeli soldier killed injured traps , israel retalliates indiscriminately bombing villages choosing often killing innocent civilians tried true method utilized guerilla terrorists groups conduct operations midst local populace , thus forcing opposing state possible harm innocent civilians search , order avoid deaths civilians , abandon search certainly people use population cover also dragging innocent civilians harm 's way suggesting , guerillas use population cover , israel totally back \? easiest way get away attacking another use innocent shield hope respects innocent lives \? tell tim , guerillas wrong \? assuming using civilians cover , killing soldiers country \? buffer zone prevent attacks israel , working \? neccessary israeli guns pound lebanese villages \? kill try infiltrate buffer zone \? see , shelling villages called retaliation getting back getting even n't make sense shell villages least shows reckless disregard israeli government lives civilians please clarify standards rules engagement understand , israelis times circumstances fair targets opponents legitimate targets , \? i'm sure makes perfect sense grant priori israelis black hats , therefore killing automatically good thing \( go hezbollah ! \) corollary hezbollah white hats , whatever good thing , israelis prove bad guys attacking sounds suspiciously like hockey fan know , cheers one players team uses stick permanently opponent 's face , curses ref side course , 's different roles reversed c sessions speaking note new network address dcs witsend tnet com author \( everything else ! \) tmail \( dos mail news shell \)
ehrlich bimacs bitnet \( gideon ehrlich \) subject us consider yigal arens dangerous humanity organization math department , bar ilan university , , israel lines 20 article arens grl isi edu arens isi edu \( yigal arens \) writes los angeles times , tuesday , april 13 , 1993 p a1 problem us government files yigal arens similar persons violate federal local american law seemed belong local american law forum forum readers forum seemed interested contents files nice yigal tell us 1 american authorities consider yigal arens dangerous \? 2 adl interest person \? 3 one trust either us government adl additional information send \? gideon ehrlich
gt1091a prism gatech edu \( gt1091a gt1091a kaan , timucin \) subject public service translation 2 keywords effective greek armenian postings organization georgia institute technology lines 19 see retarded translator , david , still writing things n't make sense hey david see may one day , chance talk deeply freedom speach , killing torture , things easy ways different plans empty like lets get serious , dave , n't ever write bad things turkish people especially cyprus hear word consider curse people timucin kaan , timucin georgia institute technology , atlanta georgia , 30332 uucp ! decvax , hplabs , ncar , purdue , rutgers ! gatech ! prism ! gt1091a internet gt1091a prism gatech edu
francesca benson fourd com subject argic organization 4th dimension bbs lines 7 nntp posting host cs utexas edu one word loser ! ! ! ! system fourd com phone 617 494 0565 cute quote computer means never say 're sorry
jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) subject investment yehuda shomron organization department redundancy department lines 22 article igc apc org cpr igc apc org \( center policy research \) writes wish learn something perversion judaism , consult work yehoshua , many years head israeli intelligence opponent plo suggestion learn something perversion judaism someone claim experience israeli intelligence plo like suggestion learn something conspiracy street someone experience fashion design pizza making latest book published english includes detailed analysis judeo nazism judeo nazism \? cpr , 're league barf take compliment , see way jake livni jake bony1 bony com ten years , george bush american occupied new york replaced jimmy carter opinions employer opinions standard failed president
jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) subject investment yehuda shomron organization department redundancy department lines 12 article 1993apr18 das harvard edu adam endor uucp \( adam shostack \) writes think house jews , reference person jewish ancestry issues statements company organization condemn judaism perfectly believe cpr house jew jake livni jake bony1 bony com ten years , george bush american occupied new york replaced jimmy carter opinions employer opinions standard failed president
oyalcin iastate edu \( onur yalcin \) subject armenia says could shoot turkish planes organization iowa state university , ames , ia lines 38 article 1993apr19 155856 8260 kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes article 1993apr17 185118 10792 ee rochester edu , terziogl ee rochester edu \( esin terzioglu \) writes let clearify mr turkish armenia getting itchy simply letting world know longer sit quiet let turks get away famous tricks armenians remember turkish invasion greek island cypress world simply watched appropriate address netters names appear signatures \( failed since bother sign posting \) polite thing , also avoid addressing ladies mr , done secondly , island name correctly spelled cyprus never greek , rather , home bi communal society formed greeks turks seems know little history island , know essence turkey 's military intervention international agreements may , analogy act occupation history going today azerbaijani land , drawn expansionist policy armenia pursuing , could agree us issue diagnoses political conduct countries , promulgate terminology itchy bitchy onur yalcin
ellis uchicago edu \( michael \) subject many israeli soldiers take kill 5 yr old child \? reply midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 30 article hm cs brown edu hm cs brown edu \( harry mamaysky \) writes steel hal gnu ai mit edu \( nick steel \) writes q many occupying israeli soldiers \( terrorists \) take kill 5 year old native child \? four two fasten arms , one shoots face , one writes false report nick steel provide documentation alleged incident \? probably 's singing someone else 's opera 's good , perhaps get best supporting singer give q account well documented \( go back reread articles appeared joke \) q many antisemites take come another anti israeli provocation net \? one 'll fabricate lie , many applaud would much prefer mr steel would refrain kind jokes future 're offensive also negative effect state things jews arabs thanks nothing , clown ! mike
aa624 freenet carleton ca \( suat kiniklioglu \) subject futility impotence greek foreign policy organization national capital freenet , ottawa , canada lines 34 go greeks trying year , even though mr mitsotakis threatening ec macedonia recognized honourable would back well guess europeans pulled plug eh \? one example greek foreign policy objectives pity live greek flag political decision makers recognition macedonia belgium , germany , italy joined denmark 15 april recognizing republic macedonia , afp reports ec member state greece , blocked ec recognition macedonia , noted recognition facilitate negotiations athens underway new york duncan perry , rl , inc day come reuters write despite lengthy negotiations numerous attempts island turkish republic northern cyprus recognized humble servant kubilay
stssdxb st unocal com \( dorin baru \) subject go hezbollah ! organization unocal corporation lines 35 \( brad hernlem writes well , noted cheering attack israeli patrol inside lebanese territory condemning retaliatory shelling lebanese villages israeli israeli backed forces team , see , playing fair opposing team faces spectators team 's viewing stands , speak think try find sources news goes lebanon try see propaganda priori black white hats one sure wonders idf bombard villages retaliation pin point attacks soldiers lebanon call lebanese terrorists attack justified least debatable issue issue cheering death read original article find israeli government responsible dead soldiers , 's reasonable \( debatable \) point , feel satisfaction dead bodies reasonable standards matter try justify may understand frustration israeli occupation lebanon matter say , understand satisfaction dead bodies question let 's assume bosnian village , inhabited serbs untill \( 10 20 \) years ago , later taken bosnian muslims \( means peaceful \) , enjoy serbs coming killing \( armed \) bosnian muslims \? would enjoy , would enjoy dead bodies israelis , lebanese bosnians dorin
bdm cs rit edu \( brendan mckay \) subject dir yassin \( free man propaganda machine freeman , blood greetings israel \) nntp posting host virginia organization rochester institute technology , rochester , ny lines 123 article hm cs brown edu hm cs brown edu \( harry mamaysky \) writes article 1993apr13 thunder mcrcim mcgill edu hasan mcrcim mcgill edu writes check begin \( published book \) 'll find accounts massacres including deir , though numbers massacred men , children women greatly minimized known writing directly attributable menachem begin admits massacre deir yassin thus , hasan wrong per request hasan revolt , menachem begin , dell publishing , ny , 1977 pp 225 227 apart military aspect , moral aspect story dir yassin village , whose name publicized throughout world , sides suffered heavy casualties four killed nearly forty wounded number casualties nearly forty percent total number attackers arab troops suffered casualties three times heavy fighting word troops unjustified never evidence regular irregular arab forces village apart villagers defending according haganah observer pa'il , irgun lehi forces suffered lot casualties incompetent soldiers ran trouble securing central part village , small group palmach soldiers came took without single casualty begin 's failure even mention palmach one major inaccuracies \( use kind word \) account incidentally , three times heavy may correct , serious evidence arab loss closer 120 lives oft quoted 250 lives however , note begin compares wounded jews dead arabs fails mention number wounded arabs guess thus severe yet hostile propaganda , disseminated throughout world , deliberately ignored fact civilian population dir yassin actually given warning us battle began one carrying loud speaker stationed entrance village arabic women , children aged leave houses take shelter slopes hill giving humane warning fighters threw away element complete surprise , thus increased risk ensuing battle thoroughly established many sources , loudspeaker truck got stuck ditch far village provide warning substantial number inhabitants obeyed warning leave stone houses perhaps confusion fire enemy murderous number casualties bears eloquent testimony men compelled fight every house overcome enemy used large numbers hand grenades civilians disregarded warnings suffered inevitable casualties education gave soldiers throughout years revolt based observance traditional laws war never broke unless enemy first thus forced us , accordance accepted custom war , apply convinced , , officers men wished avoid single unnecessary casualty dir yassin battle throw stones denunciation dir yassin 1 would well cloak hypocrisy 2 connection capture dir yassin jewish agency found necessary send letter apology abdullah , mr ben gurion , moment great political emotion , called 'the wise ruler seeks good people country ' ruler , ' whose mercenary forces demolished flung bodies heroic defenders birds prey , replied feudal rejected apology replied jews blame believe existence ' throughout arab world world large wave lying propaganda let loose 'jewish attrocities ' enemy propaganda designed name result helped us panic overwhelmed arabs israel village , previously repulsed every attack haganah , evacuated overnight fell without fighting also evacuated two places overlooked main road fall , together capture haganah , made possible keep open road jerusalem rest country , , arabs began flee terror , even clashed jewish forces happened dir yassin , invented dir yassin , helped carve way decisive victories battlefield legend dir yassin helped us particular saving conquest haifa worth noting begin disputes standard myth palestinian arabs fled part calculated plan 1 \( footnote revolt , pp 226 7 \) counteract loss dir yassin , village strategic importance , arab headquarters ramallah broadcast crude atrocity story , massacre irgun troops women children village certain jewish officials , fearing irgun men political rivals , seized upon arab propaganda smear irgun eminent rabbi induced irgun time sift truth evil , however , good came arab propaganda spread legend terror amongst arabs arab troops , seized panic mention irgun soldiers legend worth half dozen battalions forces israel yassin lie still propagated jew haters world apparently 90 israeli historians jew haters 2 reference denunciation dir yassin fellow jews previously posted quotations irgun participants totally destroys begin 's whitewash particular desire post yet brendan \( normally bdm cs anu edu au \)
siegfried r spc edu subject adl spying case organization st peter 's college , us lines 36 article arens grl isi edu , arens isi edu \( yigal arens \) writes los angeles times , tuesday , april 13 , 1993 p a1 new details extensive adl spy operation emerge san francisco outside world , roy bullock small time art dealer operated house castro district reality , undercover spy picked garbage secret files anti defamation league nearly 40 years anti defamation league , self described jewish defense civil rights organization , acknowledges long collected information groups anti semitic , extremist racist adl 's fact finding division , headed suall new york , enjoys reputation thoroughness often shared information police agencies journalists something almost fact yigal arens important enough adl g knows else sifting garbage \( happens legal throw , ai n't \) brings mind possibilities adl connection mind bullock may working friend plo father \( brother \? \) moshe arens \( former israeli defense minister \) spying arens hired bullock spy get attention case , cares \? robert siegfried computer science dept saint peter 's college jersey city , nj siegfried r spc edu
zbib bnr ca \( sam zbib \) subject legality jewish purchase nntp posting host 47 141 0 106 reply zbib bnr ca organization bell northern research lines 67 \( amir rosenblatt \) writes sam zbib writes one right mind would sell freedom dignity palestinians exception perhaps heard anti trust business world since debating legality commercial transaction , must use laws governing guidelines ethics transactions basic anti trust law says , purchase ibm stocks purpose investing , acquire large number shares intent controlling ibm make intentions clear clearly , jews purchased properties palastenians designs , buying dwelling real estate establishing bridgehead european jews palastenians sold properties jews old tradition arab hospitality multi ethnic multi religious society , accepting jews neighbours different , another religion plus paid fair market value , etc know victims international conspiracy \( i'm conspiracy theorist , one hard dismiss \) right , i'm going address point jewish national fund bought land , n't buy palestinians , , part , tenant farmers \( fallahin \) , living land owned wealthy arabs syria lebanon jnf offered premium deal , owners took advantage 's called commerce owners , however , made provisions worked , basically shafting selling land right blame , jews amir would sale land shafting \? sold jews \? fair assume fallahin would mistreated jews \? norm commerce \( read shafting \) arabs jews \? claim lebanese syrian landlords sold palestine \( true , even partially \) omits fact mandate treaty put lebanon syria french rule , palestine british , landlord would found foreigner palestine would motivated sell , regardless price interesting though acknowledge palestinians shafted many israelis jews share opinion \? absolve purchaser ethical commitments n't written \? told , see answer response question whether intent behind purchase aimed controlling public assets \( land , infra structure etc \) imho palestinians grounds contest legality purchase , say world court sam opinions one else 's
chrism cirrus com \( chris metcalfe \) subject nazi eugenic theories circulated cpr \( peace \) organization cirrus logic inc lines 85 strong evidence cpr really stands unbelievable disgusting proves must never forget ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! article 1483500348 igc apc org cpr igc apc org \( center policy research \) writes center policy research cpr subject unconventional peace proposal unconventional proposal peace middle east unconventional eugenic solutions jewish problem suggested northern europeans past eugenics science deals improvement \( control human mating \) qualities race breed webster 's ninth collegiate dictionary 5 emergence considerable number 'mixed' marriages israel palestine , would relatives 'both sides' divide , would make conflict lose ethnical unsoluble core strengthen emergence truly civil society existence strong 'mixed' stock people would also help integration israeli society middle east graceful manner nothing husseini 's statement zionist entity must forcing engage surrounding normal arab society strong mixed stock , integration israeli society middle east graceful manner , phrases nazi racial engineering pure simple israeli society right exist per se ! 3 fundamentalist jews would certainly object use financial incentives encourage point view , continued existence specific jewish people overrides consideration , human love , peace human rights president world jewish congress , edgar , reflected view years ago interview gave der spiegel , german magazine called increasing assimilation jews world calamity , comparable effects holocaust objection merit either fulfill first two assumptions \( see \) continued existance specific jewish people overrides consideration , human love , peace human rights jewish people protect human values love peace yes heard himmler notice source problem seems jews analysis ya , der ist gut 5 may objected fund would need great sums bring substantial demographic changes objection merits however , must remembered huge sums , 3 billion , expended year united states government u organizations maintain elusive peace middle east armaments mere fraction sums would suffice launch proposal create favorable climate towards existence 'mixed' marriages israel palestine , thus encouraging emergence non society worn torn land nice attempt mix slam u aid israel would thankful critical comments proposal well dissemination proposal meaningful discussion enrichment elias davidsson post box 1760 121 reykjavik , iceland critical comment take nazi flag holocaust photos bedroom wall , elias 'll never succeed chris metcalfe ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! 'll find fans really stand
jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) subject unconventional peace proposal organization department redundancy department lines 85 article 1483500348 igc apc org cpr igc apc org \( center policy research \) writes center policy research cpr unconventional proposal peace middle east elias davidsson stupid postings 've brought recently , illuminating chose put name perhaps stupidest following proposal based following assumptions 1 fundamental human rights , right life , education , establish family children , human dignity , right free movement , free expression , etc important human existence rights states mean calling dismantling arab states \? 2 event conflict basic human rights rights , basic human rights prevail apparently , answer yes 6 attempts solve israeli arab conflict traditional political means failed attempts solve problem traditional military means non traditional terrorist means also failed wo n't stop trying , holy war , know 7 long conflict perceived two distinct ethnical religious communities peoples claim land , peaceful solution possible solution possible encouraging stated assumptions , state proposal mean gets even \? 1 fund established would disburse grants child born couple one partner israeli jew palestinian arab 3 first child , grant amount 18 000 second third child , 12 000 child subsequent child , grant amount 6 000 child 4 fund would financed variety sources shown interest promoting peaceful solution israeli arab conflict , , fund financed center policy research major organization , n't \? n't \? 5 emergence considerable number 'mixed' marriages israel palestine , would relatives 'both sides' divide , would make conflict lose ethnical unsoluble core strengthen emergence truly civil society yeah , like marriages among arabs strengthened societies existence strong 'mixed' stock people would also help integration israeli society middle east graceful manner world could bit less middle eastern grace objections proposal certainly voiced attempt identify boy , 're one man band listen , 'd like followup postings debate , tell us 'll leave alone jake livni jake bony1 bony com ten years , george bush american occupied new york replaced jimmy carter opinions employer opinions standard failed president
henrik quayle kpc com subject armenia says could shoot turkish planes organization none lines 57 article news iastate edu , oyalcin iastate edu \( onur yalcin \) writes article 1993apr19 155856 8260 kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes article 1993apr17 185118 10792 ee rochester edu , terziogl ee rochester edu \( esin terzioglu \) writes henrik let clearify mr turkish henrik armenia getting itchy simply letting world know henrik longer sit quiet let turks get away henrik famous tricks armenians remember turkish invasion henrik greek island cypress world simply watched onur yalcin appropriate address netters names onur yalcin appear signatures \( failed since onur yalcin bother sign posting \) onur yalcin polite thing , also avoid addressing ladies onur yalcin mr , done fine please , accept ! onur yalcin secondly , island name correctly spelled onur yalcin cyprus never greek , rather , home onur yalcin bi communal society formed greeks turks seems onur yalcin know little history onur yalcin island , know essence turkey 's onur yalcin military intervention international agreements bi communal society \? greece invade cyprus \? onur yalcin may , analogy act occupation onur yalcin history going today azerbaijani land , onur yalcin drawn expansionist policy armenia pursuing buch crap know nagarno karabagh always part armenia stalin gave azeris go back review history armenians nagarno karabagh simply defending rights keep homeland azeris invading onur yalcin , could agree us issue diagnoses onur yalcin political conduct countries , promulgate onur yalcin terminology itchy bitchy one stated however , hope armenians force turkish airplane land purposes searching arms similar one happened last summer turkey searched american plane \( carrying humanitarian aid \) bound armenia
jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) subject go hezbollah ! organization department redundancy department lines 23 article 1993apr19 413 ncsu edu hernlem chess ncsu edu \( brad hernlem \) writes think try find sources news goes lebanon try see propaganda thank , brad ali , warning us dangers propaganda 's funny , though , coming priori black white hats one sure wonders idf bombard villages retaliation pin point attacks soldiers lebanon call lebanese terrorists executes pin point attacks israelis \? guys white hats ones black hats \? neither \? mean civilians , farmers , teachers , school children \? well , maybe terrorists , \? maybe propaganda correct , \? hmm \? jake livni jake bony1 bony com ten years , george bush american occupied new york replaced jimmy carter opinions employer opinions standard failed president
maler vercors imag fr \( oded maler \) subject flame jewish home palestine nntp posting host organization imag , university grenoble , france lines 40 article bony1 bony com , jake bony1 bony com \( jake livni \) writes article 1993apr13 newshub ariel yorku ca nabil ariel yorku ca \( nabil \) writes according exodus , 600 , 000 jews marched egypt number adult males total number jewish slaves leaving egypt much larger number could arrived holy lands must substantially less ude harsh desert killings jewish tribes way nabil typical arabic thinking guilty something , everyone else unfortunately , nabil , jewish tribes nearly susceptible murdering still common among arabs middle east killings jewish tribes way n't like comment typical thinking could state interpretation exodus without read exodus see lot killing , painted author bible ideological religious colors history desert seen nomadic people occupying land 's think great book descendants arabs , turks mongols unify well jake jake livni jake bony1 bony com ten years , george bush american occupied new york replaced jimmy carter opinions employer opinions standard failed president oded maler , lgi imag , bat , b p , grenoble , france phone fax e mail maler imag fr
jaskew spam maths adelaide edu au \( joseph askew \) subject israeli expansion lust organization statistics , pure applied mathematics , university adelaide lines 46 article 1993apr15 news columbia edu ayr1 cunixa cc columbia edu \( amir rosenblatt \) writes article spam maths adelaide edu au jaskew spam maths adelaide edu au \( joseph askew \) writes article 1993apr13 das harvard edu adam endor uucp \( adam shostack \) writes depends entirely define actual fighting largely predates arab invasions deir yassin happened well arab invasion define war \? constant attacks count acts war , jews \? would hope intend reasonable discussion might wait express opinion deciding flamed sure would define look attacks villages way deciding started would count riots 20 's 30 's \? violence war personally think , opposed civil disturbance whatever , requires organisation , planning measure semi regular forces perhaps arab liberation army counts could easily convinced know great deal planning let alone organisation haganah palmach certainly cause criticism , merely reflects great organisation generally camp course , n't war , since 's arabs attacking silly n't \? case war start invasion arab armies see agree something previous posters wrong , \? like last week fatah launched katyusha rockets northern israel uprising end war begin \? sure , doubt want opinion anyway , think war requires organisation said needs group command plan fatah rockets southern lebanon \( sure right group moslems \? \) sounds like war stone throwing joseph askew joseph askew , gauche proud autumn stillness , see pleiades , jaskew spam maths adelaide edu remote thorny deserts , fell grief disclaimer \? sue , see care north tents , sky must end somwhere , actually , rather like brenda beyond pale , river murmurs
hernlem chess ncsu edu \( brad hernlem \) subject go hezbollah ! reply hernlem chess ncsu edu \( brad hernlem \) organization ncsu chem eng lines 36 article witsend uucp , c sessions dcs witsend tnet com writes please clarify standards rules engagement understand , israelis times circumstances fair targets opponents legitimate targets , \? i'm sure makes perfect sense grant priori israelis black hats , therefore killing automatically good thing \( go hezbollah ! \) corollary hezbollah white hats , whatever good thing , israelis prove bad guys attacking sounds suspiciously like hockey fan know , cheers one players team uses stick permanently opponent 's face , curses ref side course , 's different roles reversed c sessions well , noted cheering attack israeli patrol inside lebanese territory condemning retaliatory shelling lebanese villages israeli israeli backed forces team , see , playing fair opposing team faces spectators team 's viewing stands , speak think try find sources news goes lebanon try see propaganda priori black white hats one sure wonders idf bombard villages retaliation pin point attacks soldiers lebanon call lebanese terrorists brad hernlem \( hernlem chess ncsu edu \)
hilmi er dsv su se \( hilmi eren \) subject armenia says could shoot turkish planes \( henrik \) lines 53 nntp posting host dsv su se reply hilmi er dsv su se \( hilmi eren \) organization dept computer systems sciences , stockholm university henrik quayle kpc com writes armenians nagarno karabagh simply defending rights keep homeland azeris invading homeland \? first nagarno karabagh armenians homeland today fizuli , lacin several villages \( azerbadjan \) homeland ca n't see great armenia dream \? facist methods like killing , raping bombing villages last move blast truck 60 kurdish refugees , trying escape lacin , city given kurds armenians however , hope armenians force turkish airplane land purposes searching arms similar one happened last summer turkey searched american plane \( carrying humanitarian aid \) bound armenia n't speak things n't know 8 american cargo planes heading armenia turkish authorities announced going search cargo planes 3 planes returned 's base germany 5 planes searched turkey content 3 planes \? hard guess , \? sure humanitarian aid search turkish planes \? n't know talking turkey 's government announced 's giving weapons azerbadjan since armenia started attack azerbadjan self , karabag province search plane weapons since 's content announced weapons \? hilmi eren dept computer systems sciences , stockholm university sweden hilmi er dsv su se
bf3833 pyuxe cc bellcore com \( feigenbaum , benjamin \) subject israel 's expansion ii organization bellcore , livingston , nj summary hope springs eternal lines 37 article 1993apr20 news columbia edu , pgf5 cunixb cc columbia edu \( peter garfiel freeman \) writes article 0062 vm1 mcgill ca b8ha musicb mcgill ca \( b8ha \) writes nice answer questions nice feel would hearts give palestinians land focus fact israel annexed land kind gesture give back well , hope state run palestinians established , first decision make jerusalem part state annexing course steve steve , israelis stupid enough allow second palestinian state \( first one \) , probably get wish israelis would get 's coming however , palestinians somehow demonstrate could govern live peace jewish neighbors , would give idea jerusalem part state would disappointed israel annexed west bank , remain part israel forever ! ben
shaig think com \( shai guday \) subject ten questions israel organization thinking machines corporation , cambridge , usa lines 67 distribution world nntp posting host composer think com article 1483500349 igc apc org , cpr igc apc org \( center policy research \) writes center policy research cpr subject ten questions israel ten questions israelis would thankful live israel could help provide accurate answers following specific questions indeed provocative questions asked time people around lived july 1992 think whole , input relevant 1 true israeli authorities n't recognize israeli nationality \? id cards , israeli citizens must carry times , identify people jews arabs , israelis \? two separate questions obviously , israeli authorities recognize israeli nationality purposes , e g passports , services , etc id cards field nationality subdivision ostensibly , field provided provided religious departments gov't , though general case 2 true state israel fixed borders israeli governments 1948 today refused state ultimate borders state israel \? onset , israel 's borders shaped reshaped war peace , israeli gov't always felt defining borders step meaningful peace treaties neighbors plan ultimate borders \( game like ultimate \? \) extending countries 3 true israeli stocks nuclear weapons \? , could provide evidence \? aside provided , 4 true israeli prisons number individuals tried secret identities , date trial imprisonment state secrets \? true , virtue question 's subject , unanswerable anyone claims validity claiming oxymoron said , deny go ask quite number questions show obvious bias questions sort true entered mother 's vagina \? based upon kernel truth , though phrased way render repugnant cast upon israel incidentally , answer usually yes , unless born via c section shai guday stealth bombers , os software engineer thinking machines corp winged ninjas skies cambridge ,
hernlem chess ncsu edu \( brad hernlem \) subject go hezbollah ! reply hernlem chess ncsu edu \( brad hernlem \) organization ncsu chem eng lines 31 article 1993apr19 unocal com , stssdxb st unocal com \( dorin baru \) writes \( brad hernlem writes well , noted cheering attack israeli patrol inside lebanese territory condemning retaliatory shelling lebanese villages israeli israeli backed forces team , see , playing fair opposing team faces spectators team 's viewing stands , speak think try find sources news goes lebanon try see propaganda priori black white hats one sure wonders idf bombard villages retaliation pin point attacks soldiers lebanon call lebanese terrorists attack justified least debatable issue issue cheering death dorin dorin , criticism post expressed p , one accept regret aspect post hope occupation end \( accompanying loss life \) believe stiff resistance help achieve end despite said p , think point losses unacceptable strategy drove u troops lebanon , least brad hernlem \( hernlem chess ncsu edu \)
henrik quayle kpc com subject armenia says could shoot turkish planes organization none lines 52 article 1993apr20 kth se , hilmi er dsv su se \( hilmi eren \) writes henrik armenians nagarno karabagh simply defending henrik rights keep homeland azeris henrik invading homeland homeland \? first nagarno karabagh armenians homeland today fizuli , lacin several villages \( azerbadjan \) homeland ca n't see great armenia dream \? facist methods like killing , raping bombing villages last move blast truck 60 kurdish refugees , trying escape lacin , city given kurds armenians nagorno karabakh azerbaijan armenia armenians lived nagorno karabakh ever since armenians armenians used live areas armenia nagorno karabakh area used invade nagorno karabakh armenians defending azeris dying policy attacking armenians , something wrong policy recall correctly , stalin caused problem land first place , armenians henrik however , hope armenians force turkish airplane henrik land purposes searching arms similar one henrik happened last summer turkey searched american plane henrik \( carrying humanitarian aid \) bound armenia n't speak things n't know 8 u cargo planes heading armenia turkish authorities announced going search cargo planes 3 planes returned 's base germany 5 planes searched turkey content 3 planes \? hard guess , \? sure humanitarian aid story talking \? planes u sending aid armenian two years would like guess 3 planes story , would like find search turkish planes \? n't know talking turkey 's government announced 's giving weapons azerbadjan since armenia started attack azerbadjan self , karabag province search plane weapons since 's content announced weapons \? 's bad would want turkey start war armenia
henrik quayle kpc com subject armenia says could shoot turkish planes organization none lines 41 article 1993apr20 iastate edu , oyalcin iastate edu \( onur yalcin \) writes article 1993apr19 kpc com , henrik quayle kpc com writes article news iastate edu , oyalcin iastate edu \( onur yalcin \) oy henrik \( \? \) , oy ignorance manifests awkward form intransigence i'm oy going spend time review recent history cyprus good ! ! go back references read oy really interested , provide number references oy issue send email think stupid ask references ! ! many greek friends could ask info needed already read many articles need help boy , generous ! ! oy relax ! 're swinging fists open air agreeing , oy assuming would one points state ! may oy much used , agreed , take oy easily ! \) believe , relaxed henrik however , hope armenians force turkish airplane henrik land purposes searching arms similar one oy , henrik , believe n't hope armenia , henrik happened last summer turkey searched american plane henrik \( carrying humanitarian aid \) bound armenia oy one french plane changed route avoid oy inspection \? \? \? saying plane searched american turkey trust u mainly humanitarian aid cargo
mack isl stanford edu \( mack \) subject news briefs kh 1026 organization stanford university lines 19 farzin ntt jp \( farzin mokhtarian \) writes 1026 dr , minister health mentioned population growth rate iran end 1371 went 2 7 know nothing statistics , significance relatively small population growth rate sampling period small \( end 1371 \) \? suggest trend noise \? farzin mokhtarian mack
ilyess ece concordia ca \( ilyess bdira \) subject remember names come election time keywords usa federal , government , international , non usa government nntp posting host davinci ece concordia ca organization ece concordia university lines 77 article clarinet com clarinews clarinet com \( sid jr \) writes washington \( upi \) secretary state warren christopher said tuesday better ideas stop human slaughter balkans ordering american fighters bomb serbs , frustrated senator told ``we 've done damn thing , '' sen joseph biden , del , told christopher hearing senate foreign relations committee diplomacy capability right bosnia herzegovina biden chastised administration republican predecessor characterized limp response serbian policy muslims , including rape shelling civilians ``the time come us world stop bemoaning fact options bad ones , '' biden said bad ones ought pick couple '' biden also endorsed lifting international arms embargo former yugoslavia muslim dominated bosnian government might chance least defend serbs christopher said could give opening role conflict radical islamic government iran , c ! biden endorsed bombing serbian heavy weapons around besieged eastern town srebrenica ``there 's military person tell could today , gave order , take heavy weaponry around srebrenica , '' biden said nothing else , nothing else , would saved hundreds women children absolutely massacred right '' military action thing 's going change equation , '' biden said despite pressure , christopher enthusiasm american combat aircraft strike serb positions bosnia herzegovina turning point bosnia situation , '' christopher said strikes among steps complex tend interfere humanitarian think may better options '' humanitarian feeding let get raped killed political conflict clinton vowed presidential campaign \( \) lift arms embargo strike serbian heavy weapons u combat aircraft christopher said would likely level \( \) fighting cause allies draw even humanitarian effort '' great britain france balked foreign military intervention bosnia herzegovina fear peacekeeping troops ground may suffer serbian retribution n't get hell , nothing protect victims anyway maybe becasue different agenda sen nancy , r kan , seemed agree christopher 's assessment stressed need build bosnian expectations heavy u military intervention ``it 's important expectations n't raised high part bosnians , '' said air strikes might made difference eight months ago , said , strategic significance step questionable like christopher , said might jeopardize humanitarian relief effort made sure bosnian \( real subject embargo last year , everybody knows serbs unlimited supply arms \) massacred without chance defend , evil snake saying late save , let die
sgoldste aludra usc edu \( fogbound child \) subject news miss , apr 15 organization university southern california , los angeles , ca lines 46 nntp posting host aludra usc edu arf genesis mcs com \( jack schmidling \) writes article aludra usc edu sgoldste aludra usc edu \( fogbound child \) writes arf genesis mcs com \( jack schmidling \) writes yigal et al , sue adl title news miss \? least three front page stories l times would n't exactly call media cover may come surprise americans read la times monolithic , centrally controlled media 're always talking \? mean tell la times major paper buck media spiking division 's activities \? defamation league done first class job damage control little left world outside la assumption one major newspaper prints three articles front page regarding subject matter strictly local , likely considered open story , coverup let 's hear roll call anyone outside la area seen articles \? js samuel mossad special agent media spiking mind control division los angeles offices \( therefore , evidently , incompetent \) pratice safe signature ! prevent dangerous signature virii ! names shouted certain dawn message summons must moment , beginning , could said somehow missed
adam endor uucp \( adam shostack \) subject syria 's expansion organization aiken computation lab , harvard university lines 95 article dscomsa desy de hallam zeus02 desy de writes article 1993apr18 das harvard edu , adam endor uucp \( adam shostack \) writes article 18apr93 vm1 mcgill ca b8ha000 b8ha musicb mcgill ca writes 1 \) israel 's occupation southern lebanon temporary \? israel repeatedly stated leave lebanon lebanese government provide guarantees israel attacked lebanese soil , syrians leave acceptable syria lebanon right determine wish return situation prior french invasion part mandate territory read colony lebanon right make decision without syrian troops controlling country syria leaves , free elections take place , rediculous claim lebanese would even involved determining happens country israel right determine happens lebanon invading another country consider threat precisely way almost wars aggression started expect agree holds true syria right lebanon \? israel already annexed areas taken 1967 war areas occupied , disputed , since governing body citizenship given residents annexed areas wanted citizenship un defines occupied recognised every nation earth \( excluding one small island \) un also thought zionism racism fails make true first reason security large jewish presense makes difficult terrorists infiltrate jewish settlements also act times war also liability talking civilian would last hours tanks , lasted weeks tanks '48 , stopped tanks advancing also lasted days '73 little evidence claim military liabilities evidence show take place jordan river , existance large , patrolled forces terrorists small area , usually picked morning second reason political creating settlements brought arabs negotiation table creation new towns cities gone another several years , would place left israel arab majority would land left could called arab n't fool gulf war brought israelis negotiating table us backers secure base gulf shamir negotiate else nonsense israel trying get neighbors negotiating table 40 years gulf war brought arabs table , israelis point , many reasons people moved green line , many reasons government wanted whatever status negotiated disputed territories , nothing deal new boundaries drawn negotiation , results war unless new boundaries drawn 48 peace precious little authority agree anything else nonsense according arafat , israel must destroyed never come clean denied plan always means ``when arabs set volcano , arabs part world people continue fuel torch revolution rivers blood whole occupied homeland liberated '' yasser arafat , ap , 3 12 79 adam shostack adam das harvard edu budget big enough drugs sexual favors , sure would n't waste members congress john perry barlow
adam endor uucp \( adam shostack \) subject unconventional peace proposal organization aiken computation lab , harvard university lines 22 article 1483500348 igc apc org center policy research cpr igc apc org writes 1 idea providing financial incentives selected forms partnership marriage , conventional however , based concept affirmative action , recognized legitimate form public policy reverse perverse effects segregation discrimination people already shown rediculous proposal however , wanted point many people think affirmative action either intelligent productive supposedly helps discriminatory proposal based likely bunk well adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu budget big enough drugs sexual favors , sure would n't waste members congress john perry barlow
anwar cs cmu edu \( anwar mohammed \) subject spied keywords hypocritical pig nntp posting host gs135 sp cs cmu edu organization school computer science , carnegie mellon lines 62 article news cso uiuc edu eshneken ux4 cso uiuc edu \( edward shnekendorf \) writes anwar cs cmu edu \( anwar mohammed \) writes article 4815 bimacs bitnet ehrlich bimacs bitnet \( gideon ehrlich \) writes readers forum seemed interested contents files nice yigal tell us 1 american authorities consider yigal arens dangerous \? adl authorities seem view lot people dangerous , including millions americans arab ancestry perhaps answer question adl maintained files spied adc members california \( elsewhere \? \? \) \? friendly rivalry perhaps \? come ! arabs sympathetic palestinian war israel adl monitors arab organizations reason us monitored communist organizations soviet nationals years ago adc organization arab americans let see 're saying arab americans spied \? 're also saying arab americans views national security threat israel \( us , imply reference wtc bombing , arab americans involved \) \? inference , assume think anyone arab lineage anywhere world poses threat israel , therefore , spied \? perhaps , , basis pollard spy case \( mention , etc \) think jewish americans spied adc oh , never mind whole spying case obviously convoluted sense right wrong matters wish confuse perhaps yigal greenpeace member \? naacp \? reporter \? member dozens political organizations ethnic minorities adl spied groups , past , associated part anti israel activity propoganda adl simply monitoring anything comes , wo n't caught surprise la times reporter information sold south african government involved anti israel activity propaganda \? infer simple act reporting event newspaper constitutes anti israel activity propaganda \? south africa \? la times reporter based south africa , gideon ehrlich anwar ed anwar
vmsb csupomona edu subject media horrified perot investigating bush ! visser convex convex com 1 vmsb csupomona edu visser convex convex com organization california state polytechnic university , pomona lines 29 nntp posting host nntp posting user visser convex com \( lance visser \) writes ca n't find source state retract claim , 'll go dig one library fair enough \? serious \? i'm talking anything produced something talking top head , would assume memory source put without conditions ! yes , serious claim substantiate statement rudman says n't believe perot investigating claim perot investigating state error point , provided produce source , 'll go dig give one reason go trouble wo n't agree \? simple enough know n't time waste 'll blow tripe usually post michael pye email csupomona edu
bob1 cos com \( bob blackshaw \) subject damn ferigner 's taken article cos bob1 distribution world organization corporation open systems lines 34 dup apollo hp com nelson p apollo hp com \( peter nelson \) writes article bob1 cos bob1 cos com \( bob blackshaw \) writes apollo hp com nelson p apollo hp com \( peter nelson \) writes norway \( appear posting \) place , although always escaped understanding appeal , allegedly rational people , scheme might gives king olav v \( whoever atlas 1987 \) right special legal status title based mere accident birth \? begin , 's quite inexpensive compared , six former presidents still alive , drawing , expense accounts , secret service protection maybe , , , president corporate world 's retiring senior executives given nice , etc point performed service part compensation package service royals perform free ride born might better former presidents done nothing peter ps say presidents provided service country dissimilar occurs bull services cow \( familiar cattle breeding \)
dreitman oregon uoregon edu \( daniel r reitman , attorney \) subject bill conklin 's letter j article oregon distribution world organization university oregon lines 46 nntp posting host oregon uoregon edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article 1993apr5 colorado edu , ajteel dendrite cs colorado edu \( j teel \) writes , main point human yet born bound contract wrong 's possible inherit debt , third party bound contract party see constitution united states contract third party bound , human specifically mentioned article 6 taken oath made affirmation uphold said const bound uphold obey constitution contract statute please , mr teel , anyone , show one case u constitution , state constitution , considered contract const designed limit powers government , bind people also designed powers u government argument presented great detail next post ca n't wait daniel reitman write deed one case involved construction conveyance jointly , tenants common , equal rights interest said land , survivor thereof , fee simple hold unto said parties , equally , jointly , tenants common , equal rights interest period term lives , survivor thereof death court held provision indicated intent create joint tenancy germain v , 294 ala 443 , 318 2d 681 \( 1975 \)
dreitman oregon uoregon edu \( daniel r reitman , attorney \) subject traffic case article oregon distribution world organization university oregon lines 20 nntp posting host oregon uoregon edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article 1993apr5 876 colorado edu , ajteel dendrite cs colorado edu \( j teel \) writes mcdonald case dismissed interests justice whose authority grounds dismissed \? daniel reitman write deed one case involved construction conveyance jointly , tenants common , equal rights interest said land , survivor thereof , fee simple hold unto said parties , equally , jointly , tenants common , equal rights interest period term lives , survivor thereof death court held provision indicated intent create joint tenancy germain v , 294 ala 443 , 318 2d 681 \( 1975 \)
dreitman oregon uoregon edu \( daniel r reitman , attorney \) subject winning tax case ! article oregon distribution world organization university oregon lines 37 nntp posting host oregon uoregon edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article infoserv com , infoserv com \( james donald \) writes tax protesters legally correct , put jail anyway hello \? sloan decision means tax protestors wrong weakness governments legal position shown fact someone protesting tax gun laws legal grounds gets federal jury trial \( rare \) feds blatantly stack jury , old faces turning time time demonstrate , please ! rules procedure make unlikely however teel mentioned though advice legally sound , follow probably wind jail discussion purposes makes legally unsound representing mr teel , 'd try procedural approach could find one , recommend plea bargain 's setting hot water daniel reitman write deed one case involved construction conveyance jointly , tenants common , equal rights interest said land , survivor thereof , fee simple hold unto said parties , equally , jointly , tenants common , equal rights interest period term lives , survivor thereof death court held provision indicated intent create joint tenancy germain v , 294 ala 443 , 318 2d 681 \( 1975 \)
stephen orchid ucsc edu \( \) subject demo nonsense talk lies \? organization santa cruz lines 33 distribution usa nntp posting host orchid ucsc edu article optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes homosexuals lying 10 number long politicians running scared course , homosexuals lying surprise lie something one knows sure first state 10 figure may high may low , depending talking keep mind heterosexuals actually gay people chose take road avoids harassed wanted in' everyone 'normal' person let 's get irrational behavior calling everyone liar , cannot even start support claims also , corrupt , criminal lying nature kinsey 's work , provides much justification homosexual rights modern era , make people step back moment question rest crap force fed news media sure sounds definitive label kinsey 's work like , factually based scientific journal wsj \? relations people mutual consent , interesting statement realize many things life based may required occasion parties may mutually consenting \?
stephen orchid ucsc edu \( \) subject evidence organization santa cruz lines 59 nntp posting host orchid ucsc edu article optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes article bu edu , kane buast7 bu edu \( hot young star \) writes article netcom com netcom com writes homosexuals keep privacy home , would n't problem however , various \( sp \? \) n't want present argument moral right heterosexuality know , i'm offended newspapers publicly announcing weddings heterosexuals keep public eyes banned wearing wedding rings legal recognition marriage anything 's public sexual n't mix difference , course , right , wrong minority wants freedom , helps obnoxious surprise groups like translation minorities stay areas majority 'right' , anything , since might makes right , majority always rules queer nation become increasingly public demonstrations , violence homosexuals rises anything reminds crazies like beat homosexuals presence going aggravate things oh crime prevention best well let 's extrapolate , maybe n't display private property , nasty would n't go n't carry money , way muggers wo n't bother still n't realize either way , says homosexuals dangerous children tell 's immoral homosexuality \? promiscuity characterizes sexual component pursuit candy ass words le , typical homosexual oh know le typical homosexual stop making statements something know nothing , gay people make sweeping generalizations grounding reality hope true typical heterosexual anyone want comment \? typical start extrapolating lot interesting heterosexuals
arf genesis mcs com \( jack schmidling \) subject news may missed , 3 23 article genesis organization mcsnet contributor , chicago , il lines 23 nntp posting host localhost mcs com article aludra usc edu sgoldste aludra usc edu \( fogbound child \) writes arf genesis mcs com \( jack schmidling \) writes article 1993apr1 1105 rapnet sanders lockheed com babb k2 \( scott babb \) writes jack schmidling \( arf genesis mcs com \) wrote jac2y virginia edu \( jonathan cook jac2y \) writes restrict condemnation racial strife israel \? situations bosnia , tibet , china , etc merit comment \? far aware , sent close 100 billion dollars let 's exaggerate notice offer alternative number try one size year 2000 , american taxpayers given israel one dollar every star milky way galaxy let look number
tzs stein2 u washington edu \( tim smith \) subject winning tax case ! article shelley distribution world organization university washington school law , class '95 lines 27 nntp posting host stein2 u washington edu dreitman oregon uoregon edu \( daniel r reitman , attorney \) writes makes legally unsound representing mr teel , 'd try procedural approach could find one , recommend plea bargain 's setting hot water indeed reading cases people 've tried various things mr teel suggests show defendants fall two classes \( 1 \) win procedural grounds grounds related claim , \( 2 \) lose consider newman v schiff , 778 f 2d 460 \( 8th 1985 \) , 've seen cited tax protestors mr teel win mr schiff mr schiff offered 100 , 000 tv anyone would call show cite section internal revenue code says individual file return mr newman took mr newman seen show rebroadcast next morning mr schiff claimed offer extended people actually say original broadcast , offer mr newman accept , unilateral contract formed , mr schiff pay 100 , 000 mr schiff correct , , yes , mr schiff claim 100 , 000 reward however , win nothing tax code tim smith
starowl bolero rahul net \( michael adams \) subject california insurance commissioner endorses federal legislation protect consumers scam insurance companies article rahul reply starowl a2i rahul net organization service actuarial consulting lines 12 nntp posting host bolero x header ignore ignore ignore ignore line rick sjsu edu \( richard warner \) writes simple bureaucrat regulator duties make rules enforce laws make life difficult us michael adams \( starowl a2i rahul net \) champaign , il southeast al thrush believes two party system masters slaves napoleon solo \( man u n c l e \)
tzs stein2 u washington edu \( tim smith \) subject sick tired \( bill conklin \( et al \) 's letter \) article shelley distribution na organization university washington school law , class '95 lines 19 nntp posting host stein2 u washington edu article 1993apr4 mks com richw mks com \( rich wales \) writes ca n't cite us case joe schmoe , regular employee earning regular wages regular company , refuses pay income tax , gets hauled court , convicted tax eva sion , conviction overturned us supreme court landmark 7 2 majority ruling income tax indeed totally voluntary \? , say \? case exists \? hmmm , wonder n't \? unless 've got notes mixed , 939 f 2d 499 comes close regular guy blue collar worker regular company hauled court convicted appeals 7th circuit makes right arguments \( brief cited mr teel example winning brief \) shot , 3 zip 7th circuit appeals supreme court denied defendant goes jail oh well tim smith
julie eddie jpl nasa gov \( julie kangas \) subject top ten reasons aid russians nntp posting host eddie jpl nasa gov organization jet propulsion laboratory , pasadena , ca lines 12 article cvo news udel edu roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) writes tip hat david letterman making top ten format popular top ten reasons conservatives n't want aid russia looking around \? \? n't look want send aid russia many conservatives well julie disclaimer opinions belong cat one else
mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com \( mark wilson \) subject conservative organization ncr engineering manufacturing atlanta atlanta , ga lines 17 1993apr2 rotag mi org kevin rotag mi org \( kevin darcy \) writes congress allowed constitutional rights privileges already enjoyed persons , however , unless rational reason compelling interest , depending standard applied relevant granting right one class persons definition always rights another class classes persons , degree case abortion , establishing rights unborn greatly rights pregnant women yet presented sufficient justification fetal rights satisfaction arguments convinced , others mob rule n't prettier merely mob calls government ai n't charity using someone else 's money wilson 's theory relativity go back far enough , 're related mark wilson atlantaga ncr com
mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com \( mark wilson \) subject rodney king trial , civil rights violations , double jeopardy organization ncr engineering manufacturing atlanta atlanta , ga lines 37 1993apr2 husc3 harvard edu husc11 harvard edu \( david \) writes recently 's occured 've never heard person ever tried federal court violating someone 's civil rights course cases supreme court decided someone 's civil rights violated \( e g , miranda , , etc \) , institutions , de facto , defendants , individuals mistaken \? similar cases individuals past \? know used several times south , prosecute murders blacks , white cleared furthermore , specific charges four lapd officers \? civil rights laws accused violating \? believe general charge , specific right mentioned double jeopardy \? concern verdict koon , et al might overturned upon appeal 're tried actions \? \( thought heard something news \) ss previously ruled since seperate governments essence seperate , double jeopardy apply \( true , could defendents also tried city county governments \? \) mornings paper said aclu decided reinstate opposition kind thing earlier suspended opposition examined king case might hope aclu mob rule n't prettier merely mob calls government ai n't charity using someone else 's money wilson 's theory relativity go back far enough , 're related mark wilson atlantaga ncr com
mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com \( mark wilson \) subject tax evasion considered unpatriotic \? organization ncr engineering manufacturing atlanta atlanta , ga lines 37 1993apr2 hemlock cray com rja mahogany126 cray com \( ben 's dad \) writes article ncratl atlantaga ncr com , mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com \( mark wilson \) writes article s1 gov lip s1 gov \( loren petrich \) writes title self explanatory isaac asimov pointed curious fact saying considered unpatriotic give everything state saying considered unpatriotic give life battle state \? pc \( correct \) certainly think thought kind system collapsed soviet union , pentagon still standing collecting names draft 's meant point paying taxes cease patriotic \? money life important \? nice dodge give 9 2 answer questions believe draft armed services voluntary say taxes 've answered question would answer mine mob rule n't prettier merely mob calls government ai n't charity using someone else 's money wilson 's theory relativity go back far enough , 're related mark wilson atlantaga ncr com
infoserv com \( james donald \) subject winning tax case ! organization liberty trust lines 22 x mailer tmail version 1 13 strange definition winning titled thread winning tax case ! \? sloan lost unanimous 3 0 decision tore arguments pieces went prison using arguments see united states v sloan , 939 499 \( 7th 1990 \) , 704 f 880 tax protesters legally correct , put jail anyway weakness governments legal position shown fact someone protesting tax gun laws legal grounds gets federal jury trial \( rare \) feds blatantly stack jury , old faces turning time time however teel mentioned though advice legally sound , follow probably wind jail james donald joseph stalin said ideas powerful guns would let enemies infoserv com guns , let ideas
pcollac pyrnova mis pyramid com \( paul collacchi \) subject supply side economic policy \( david stockman \) reply pcollac pyrnova mis pyramid com \( paul collacchi \) distribution na organization pyramid technologies , mt view , california lines 43 article andrew cmu edu , ashish andrew cmu edu \( ashish \) writes excerpts netnews sci econ 5 apr 93 supply side economic po boomer desire wrig deficits declined 84 9 , reaching low 2 9 gnp tax spending hike 1990 reversed trend brett true \? details would appreciated cheers actually brett actually posted data previously declined 84 89 , remember , percent increase deficit growth , e rate growth deficit \( 2nd derivative total deficit respect time \) decreased brett apparently thinking deficit declined keep spending earn , deficit keeps growing keep borrowing lesser rate borrowed previously , deficit increases decrease deficits income exceeds spending use difference pay debts 's book paints real data , , detail president , essentially ran twice much total debt , half time reagan congress simply awful bush congress unbelievable really rigorous aside thread pledge night night public channel , economist gave hour presentation data predictive based largely population data n't know name , arguments brilliant confirmed , data , many us know common sense boom 80 's nothing government policy , particularly supply side policy , since taxes cause economic activities people cause economic activity explained watching population waves roll years create cycles made models predictions years well middle next century neat see accurate paul collacchi
hagenjd wfu edu \( jeff hagen \) subject top ten reasons aid russians organization wake forest university lines 4 nntp posting host ac wfunet wfu edu n't tricky dick issued stern warnings bush clinton \? \( la lost china \? ' \)
steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) subject price controls medical care \( 're govt \) summary loss leader argument wash organization aging , improving , inc lines 76 nntp posting host thor isc br com article slagle sgi417 msd lmsc lockheed com slagle lmsc lockheed com writes article 1993apr2 isc br isc br com , steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) writes thanks kim following hoping someone would bring issue cost compensation problem argument fails explain kidney dialysis \( rd \) services expanded massively last decade , one forcing private providers offer service losing money treatment \( according information 've collected several providers \) would simply limit losses cutting back services \( engage effective rationing supply \) rather expand coverage larger market must compensated raising prices areas \? perhaps competitive advantage would reputable dedicated physicians prefer affiliate institution offers dialysis services \? would therefore tend admit patients greater numbers institution offered full range diagnostic treatment options \? undoubtedly fact , fact hospitals frequently compete physicians rather patients \( part \) undermines simplistic free market analysis market medical care hospitals tend lose money sorts high tech , high price machinery manage make charges , evidence true regard kidney dialysis although price controls promoted expansion services much greater volume patients , rd still profitable service otherwise , one would expect see evidence rationing rather vast expansion occurred remember , notion lose little treatment make volume good economics even free market \) explain grocery stores routinely offer array products prices cost \? grocery stores embedded relatively free market \? spell loss leader \? knew could grocery stores attempt make loss individual product selling fact , argument kidney dialysis loss leader medical treatments lost revenue regained evidence support contention rather , appears price controls disciplined market forcing expansion service development improved lower cost technology provide comparable benefits providers continue profit rd , simply make less treatment would price risen rate uncontrolled treatments question price controls forced price rd substantially actual cost doomsday predictions free market advocates would seen restriction service , lagging technological development , etc likewise , appears va armed forces medical care systems , providers government agencies , negative impacts may occur \( rd patients va system spokane , example , must travel seattle , 300 miles away , treatment \) bottom line , however , example government intervention \( rather extreme sort \) appears beneficial results providers consumers claims government bureaucracy inevitably leads undesirable outcomes marketplace take cases account jsh mark steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing data , sure cut uucp ! uunet ! isc br ! thor ! steveh bulls r hofferbert bell 509 838 8826
richw mks com \( rich wales \) subject sick tired \( bill conklin \( et al \) 's letter \) reply richw mks com \( rich wales \) organization mortice kern systems inc , waterloo , ontario , canada distribution na lines 92 replying j teel well , two nifty letters giving concrete proof income tax voluntary giving specific procedures stopping withholding , et cetera letters n't provide concrete proof anything absence case law demonstrates method ally work ordinary people everyday situations specifically , show us case law courts ruled income tax illegal ordinary working types pay income tax \( legally avoid paying income tax declaring churches \) issue sufficiently important think right expect something squarely point us supreme court \( case federal tax \) state 's supreme court \( state 's income tax \) unless , one unwilling call material concrete proof refutation date nay sayers finally given defeated \? sure would like hear reasons disbelief point refutation \? \? refutation \? n't made case yet 've posted plenty claims , n't given us valid reason believe court us agree claims seem surface deviate radically legal mainstream feel burden proof still show arguments merit whatsoever cases 've cited involve strange situations see reason assume rulings applicable anyone else , ultimately stand appeal supreme court ca n't cite us case joe schmoe , regular employee earning regular wages regular company , refuses pay income tax , gets hauled court , convicted tax eva sion , conviction overturned us supreme court landmark 7 2 majority ruling income tax indeed totally voluntary \? , say \? case exists \? hmmm , wonder n't \? shall conclude point received opposition field \? due respect , conclude anything want hope , sake , n't conclude anyone position authority united states legitimate illegitimate subdivision thereof going agree conclusions matter , confess i'm thoroughly confused would looking court rulings favor anyway since thought told us earlier every court us big banking interests since 1938 jurisdiction coverup thing honestly expect us believe 'd go trouble subvert system , yet would still promptly back burrows face anyone knew enough invoke right combination magic spells jumbo \? , even care us courts say anyway \? n't tell us back 've attempts us officials classify 14th amendment federal citizen \? fbi comes haul away tax evasion , n't tell 're jurisdiction go back washington , c , belong \? maybe go back common law , suggested would better statutes , codes , like want renounce society 's legal framework , fine declare outlaw , ok \? , anyone sees driving roads license plate car driver 's license wallet take like game animal stew supper \( plenty veggies pinch salt , without prejudice ucc 1 207 \) sorry , everyone , 's getting late , i'm sick tired garbage know 's good , 'll clam stop try ing refute nonsense , anyone falls winds jail tax evasion , 'll head needless say , none represents opinions current employer , case , canadian n't really need care much us tax law , hand , 14th amend ment federal citizen , us passport prove , plan keep filing form 1040 's future \( though probably owe us income tax due foreign earned income exclusion foreign tax credit \) rich wales richw mks com mortice kern systems inc \( mks \) 35 king st n waterloo , ontario , canada 2w9 1 \( 519 \) 884
gadfly cbnewsi cb att com \( gadfly \) subject california insurance commissioner endorses federal legislation protect consumers scam insurance companies organization distribution usa summary g g generation lines 41 article rlm helen surfcty com , rlm helen surfcty com \( robert l mcmillin \) rants left likes dodge issues morality behavior , crying anyone raises blames victim nonetheless , recent editorial los angeles times pointed , free love advocates 1960 's demolished poor 's one thing children wedlock 're , say , murphy brown \( someone like \) , turning six figure salary quite another 're sixteen , skills , income free love advocates 1960 's manage perform demolition forced breeding programs something \? accepting even celebrating single , wedlock parenthood , 1960 's radicals free love set stage catastrophe among poor must account let get straight nice , long rant people need take personal responsibility economic social lives , sudden 1960 's radicals \( , guess \) responsible poor people 's lifestyles \? tell works think poor people dumb think \? many reasons disintegration family support systems general among nation 's poor somehow n't think murphy brown joplin top sane person 's list want go generation 's vaunted cultural revolution lasting change worse , try called relevant values education hey , seemed like good idea time know needed real education first mean , took granted ken 05 apr 93 16 cci gadfly att com l'audace ! de l'audace ! encore de l'audace !
akasacou alfred carleton ca \( alexander \) subject chrysler organization carleton university , ottawa , canada lines 79 article 1993apr5 magnus acs ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu \( michael r conners \) writes plug one i'm conservative , hate pee cee 's \( although use one work \) , proud owner next station real question feds bail steve jobs next \( la chrysler \) important manufacturing jobs would n't lost \? reminded old tom paxton song changing name chrysler \( tom paxton , 1980 \) oh price gold rising sight dollar sorry shape tonight dollar used get us wo n't buy head economic forecast n't right amidst clouds spot shining ray glimpse new better way 've devised plan action worked last fraction i'm going action today chorus changing name chrysler going washington c tell power broker perfectly acceptable changing name chrysler heading great receiving line hand million grand 'll standing hand yes sir 'll get mine screaming dough 'll proud tell go scream holler 'll paid last dollar endless streams money seam flow 'll glad tell matter simple form two 's 's liberal education ai n't kind glad i'm debt chorus since first first crawled slime 've struggling climb hardly walking money started talking 's sad failure awful crime 's way millennium two seems 's different point view 're corporate failure gigantic congress safety net chorus perhaps steven jobs take paxton 's advice change name chrysler , perhaps set l , maybe neil bush could give hand \? akasacou alfred ccs carleton ca eternal reward forgive us wasting dawn j morrison opinions expressed mine like anyone else would admit
subject stop putting white het males as010b uhura cc rochester edu \( tree schnopia \) organization university rochester rochester , new york nntp posting host uhura cc rochester edu lines 32 mea ocsmd ocs com mark ocsmd ocs com \( mark wilson \) writes yuri villanueva \( cybernet cse fau edu \) wrote envy reed edu \( public account \) writes article 1993apr2 galileo cc rochester edu as010b uhura cc rochester edu \( tree schnopia \) writes 1993apr2 jato jpl nasa gov michael neuron6 jpl nasa gov \( michael \) writes told , u barbara jordan , biologically incapable compassion personally , doubt said anything kind , someone provide original quote , context , source \( , ahem , cross checking \) , would willing agree full sh naturally , one provide bits data , paraphrase listed must disregarded , poster regarded full sh ok , \? followed without thought double checking double checked every fact people onto table net , 'd never time sleep pass buck person originally posted quote well , michael \? take away ! \( wild applause \) drewcifer bi andrew simchik schnopia ! as010b uhura cc rochester edu treewater words n't made cowards happy rhodes
subject top ten reasons aid russians rcollins ns encore com \( roger collins \) organization encore computer corporation nntp posting host sysgem1 encore com lines 35 julie eddie jpl nasa gov \( julie kangas \) writes article cvo news udel edu roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) writes tip hat david letterman making top ten format popular top ten reasons conservatives n't want aid russia looking around \? \? n't look want send aid russia many conservatives well julie disclaimer opinions belong cat one else yes , nixon vocal giving money russia makes proud libertarian appears conservatives liberals prefer cold war win , nurse enemy back health another go around 's like subsidizing wealthy countries \( japan , germany , etc \) free defense , trade warring economic competition 's like subsidizing tobacco farmers paying bureaucrats people smoke ask , law could pass prevent government stupid , frivilous things money \? think , constitution supposed could someone please tell legitimate constitutional power federal government using takes money paycheck gives needy countries \? seriously roger collins directed washington reap , would soon want bread thomas jefferson
jim specialix com \( jim maurer \) subject 50 , 000 reward ! organization specialix inc lines 10 ajteel dendrite cs colorado edu \( j teel \) writes united states' citizen resident state , citizenship c thus 14th amendment citizen citizen state live \? resident people citizens state ones n't live state \? citizen 49 states since live california \?
rwd4f poe acc virginia edu \( rob dobson \) subject motor voter organization university virginia lines 12 kaldis romulus rutgers edu \( theodore kaldis \) writes entered 1st grade , eisenhower president john f kennedy relatively obscure senator new england old think \? hope , teddy , graduate first grade clinton president keep trying disclaimer
s0xjg exnet co uk \( xavier gallagher \) subject concentrate child molesters \? organization exnet systems ltd public access news , london , uk lines 68 article 1993apr03 armory com rstevew armory com \( richard steven walz \) writes article exnet co uk sys1 exnet co uk \( xavier gallagher \) writes article 761 unix portal com shell portal com \( harry benjamin gibson \) writes something bothers whole arguement 5 \) could someone please calmly explain homosexuality great sin \? without giving standard god sez almost judeo thanks posting , enjoyed reason homosexuality sin jews struggling group people trying hard survive differentiate led several things 1 worshipping one god foes 2 sex put moral context foes perverts spilled seed liberally 's easy spill seed spread thin , specific prohibition homosexuals , especially since answer everything back stoning death , n't help population growth much also say foes perverts begs question , key word semen spilled anywhere chance procreation ok ground man big sin , ditto animals jews said sex pro creation homosexuals n't breed , fore evil stoned death 3 sex directed towards breeding jews number foes many survive everything go multiplication like said , stoning death n't help population much sounds like set prejudices already existed blown religion emphasize differences jewish culture pretty stoning non breeding population fine breeders considered worth much 1 jesus , 70 judaism , 29 original \( prejudiced \) bullshit 'll buy bullshit profound well might bitterly gay record marriage rsw ben gibson xavier richard steven walz rstevew deeptht armory com \( 408 \) 429 1200 xavier xavier gallagher play cheap part time dark s0xjg exnet co uk world wide uucp universe email feeds e mail advanced dungeons dragons
s0xjg exnet co uk \( xavier gallagher \) subject clayton cramer fixate molesting children organization exnet systems ltd public access news , london , uk lines 32 article cunyvm bitnet cunyvm bitnet writes cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) 2 homosexuals gotten law passed california makes illegal discriminate person employment based sexual orientation defined sexual orientation pedophilia sexual orientation got ! cramer claiming pedophilia sexual orientation rather homosexual condition changes whole argument much pedophilia sexual orientation cannot called homosexual may preference sex child molest \( though preference \) subset basic ped nature cramer much admitted gay men different orientations need get admit apparent similarities keeps optical illusions xavier xavier gallagher play cheap part time dark s0xjg exnet co uk world wide uucp universe email feeds e mail advanced dungeons dragons
jac2y virginia edu \( jonathan cook jac2y \) subject damn taken organization university virginia lines 34 kaldis romulus rutgers edu writes kaldis , worm rank ! america 's reputation abroad become cowards apparently requisite stand american honor dignity translation 's damn liberals ! american way may way , may consider necessarily best way , , god , 's way 're going stick ! ca n't go along program , perhaps consider moving elsewhere gave authority create enforce rather hazy thing called american way \? democracy , n't need stick stick unless choose remember , ted , class , co \? exactly problem canadians ! n't stand anything certitude nice generalization ! mouse ! sorry \? n't courage convictions \? hell , even convictions start \? kind example manly dignity \? sheesh ! coming example manly dignity , must feel really hurt jon , jac2y virginia edu
cj eno esd sgi com \( c j silverio \) subject tieing abortion health reform clinton nuts \? reply cj sgi com organization sgi developer lines 27 article 3ef news cso uiuc edu , parker cen uiuc edu writes like way people call cruel unusual punishment , imprisonment n't cruel , lethal injection pales comparison , death sentence convicted cruel unusual crime 's matters 's response matters lessen killing response killing \? 's vengeance 's 's deterrent serves purpose somebody 's blood lust would nice , though , never convicted someone crime n't commit , would make death penalty much justifiable yeah yeah yeah sure would nice n't apply death penalty disproportionately minorities 'll revisit opinion death penalty whites blacks e , hell freezes c j silverio cj sgi com well sf ca us people causing trouble socialists homosexuals , typical sort person opposes us , ex , leader pro life group rescue america , bbc tv , 2 april 1993
nadja weitek com \( nadja adolf \) subject terrorist threat organization weitek corporation , sunnyvale ca lines 16 article wetware com drieux wetware com writes article geraldo cc utexas edu , ccwf cc utexas edu \( \) writes i'm prepared instruct individuals proper use handling firearms desert storm vet six years national guard , great deal experience handling weapons tactical training ps anyone discussion counter sniper operations \? security drills , friend counter terrorist operation twit promises train tactics weapons , doubt last long enough become terrorists look sudden rise firearms accidents among fetus , though
barnett convex com \( paul barnett \) subject top ten reasons aid russians nntp posting host zeppelin convex com organization engineering , convex computer corp , richardson , tx , usa x disclaimer message written user convex computer corp opinions expressed user necessarily convex lines 15 cvo news udel edu roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) writes top ten reasons conservatives n't want aid russia edited 's funny ! \( remembering good humor always dances close truth \) ca n't wait see inevitable flames \) paul barnett mpp os development \( 214 \) 497 convex computer corp richardson , tx
rick sjsu edu \( richard warner \) subject california insurance commissioner endorses federal legislation protect consumers scam insurance companies organization san jose state university math cs dept lines 29 johne vcd hp com \( john eaton \) writes nigel allen \( ndallen r node hub org \) wrote press release california department insurance california insurance commissioner endorses federal legislation protect consumers scam insurance companies may little dense would thought protecting consumers scam insurance companies would prime objective something called cal insurance commission n't accomplishing need \? simple bureaucrat regulator duties make rules enforce laws cannot make laws law covers specific subject , say scam insurance companies , regulator cannot create one go proper legislative body get law enacted california insurance commissioner , two possible legislative bodies california state legislature u congress know little california state legislature , esp along lines insurance reform legislation \( negative movement \) wants feds , \( \) better chance getting federal law , \( b \) since many scam companies work across state lines national borders , better law reach jurisdictions john eaton ! hp vcd ! johne
jmann vineland pubs stratus com \( jim mann \) subject celebrate liberty ! 1993 organization stratus computer inc , marlboro lines 12 reply jmann vineland pubs stratus com nntp posting host pubs stratus com article 1993apr5 dsd es com bob waldrop f418 n104 z1 fidonet org \( bob waldrop \) writes sf \? please n't answer number libertarians sf fans vice versa know number sf fans also baseball fans n't plan posting red sox schedule jim mann stratus computer jmann vineland pubs stratus com
kimbark uchicago edu \( jacob galley \) subject clinton 's sister , shalala reply midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 22 last night heard something bill clinton 's sister involved marijuana bust , news suppressed also heard something ex con source reliable , though \( booklet advertising local band \) anyone net verify provide details \? i'm surprised n't seen anything newsgroup also , anyone know happened charges shalala regular pot smoker college \? ghastly accusation reported cnn streamline news day nominated , never heard anything 's almost enough make want start act type campaign invade privacy closet smokers ! \( type publicity n't violate people 's rights \) jake 's interdisciplinary studying lower levels thought process \? jacob galley midway uchicago edu
cdm pmafire inel gov \( dale cook \) subject sexual proposition sexual harassment \? organization winco lines 59 article senator bedfellow mit edu wdstarr athena mit edu \( william december starr \) writes article 1993mar30 pmafire inel gov , cdm pmafire inel gov \( dale cook \) said real world data point person much stronger legal claim harrassment \( sexual otherwise \) make clear offender behaviour unwanted behaviour persists , harrassment much easier demonstrate , due fact offender knew behaviour unwanted argument original query regarded question first sexual proposition made person person b would considered sexual harassment many people \( assuming , course , exist power relationship b proposition carries strong implications extortion right word one \) say people wrong word harass means irritate torment persistently 'd hardly consider one time fall definition persistent additionally , basis assume behaviour unwanted , unlike illegal proposition course , think original question offering money sex harrassment , activity illegal , could presumed unwanted average citizen take issue viewpoint given \( \) prostitution victimless crime \( b \) literally millions americans participate sort victimless activities state defined criminal \( e g , prostitution , obscenity , gambling , using certain recreational drugs , non mercenary sex persons one 's spouse certain states , unnatural sex people regardless marital status exchange money certain states , etc \) , 'd say idea activity may presumed unwanted average citizen merely illegal sort sophistry judge could indulge straight face \( said , speaking law student 's read share judicial opinions reality denied , fact , actually inverted order make universe conform writer 's politics \) speaking legalistic viewpoint say true , law , order make little sense manages make , make assumptions assuming illegal activity unwanted average citizen think reasonable certainly , would need preponderance evidence side reasonable belief proposition welcome number people participate victimless crimes notwithstanding , fact law , activity illegal presume proposition welcome simply large number people indulge type sophistry lawyer could indulge straight face dale cook town churches bars serious social problem edward abbey opinions mine \( e , employer 's \)
julie eddie jpl nasa gov \( julie kangas \) subject top ten reasons aid russians nntp posting host eddie jpl nasa gov organization jet propulsion laboratory , pasadena , ca lines 73 article encore com rcollins ns encore com \( roger collins \) writes julie eddie jpl nasa gov \( julie kangas \) writes article cvo news udel edu roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) writes tip hat david letterman making top ten format popular top ten reasons conservatives n't want aid russia looking around \? \? n't look want send aid russia many conservatives well yes , nixon vocal giving money russia makes proud libertarian appears conservatives liberals prefer cold war win , nurse enemy back health another go around enemy \? sounds like 's viewpoint stereotypical conservative commies , always ' suggest listen carefully stuff yeltsin people saying compare anti west slogans coming opponents russian congress sure know want back oh , btw , germany sure come back terrible enemy wwii , n't \? 's like subsidizing wealthy countries \( japan , germany , etc \) free defense , trade warring economic competition 's like subsidizing tobacco farmers paying bureaucrats people smoke better let degenerate civil war \? remember nuclear weapons russia cannot imagine would used civil war take , even prevent civil war , feel must take back large parts land countries \( like ukraine \) also cannot imagine ukraine giving land without fight , possibly nuclear affect us \? well , planet vast tracks europe blown away think 'd feel something massive breakup country spans 1 6th planet bound affects \( course , also humanitarian argument democracies help democracies \( struggling democracies \) \) ask , law could pass prevent government stupid , frivilous things money \? think , constitution supposed could someone please tell legitimate constitutional power federal government using takes money paycheck gives needy countries \? seriously seriously everyone different opinions stupid two causes aid russia strong space program someone else champion welfare education studies drunken goldfish republic true democracy instead gridlock massive scale , gridlock congressional scale btw , decide \? ' like want impose others sort thing thought libertarians actually , politics pretty libertarian except one issue impossible join party seems libertarians want withdraw rest world let sink swim could 100 years ago like beginnings global economy global decision making julie disclaimer opinions belong cat one else
rick howtek mv com \( rick roy \) subject clayton cramer fixate molesting children organization howtek , inc reply rick howtek mv com \( rick roy \) x mailer uaccess macintosh release 1 6v2 lines 76 article 1993apr04 armory com \( talk politics misc , alt sex , soc men \) , rstevew armory com \( richard steven walz \) writes article cunyvm bitnet cunyvm bitnet writes think dialogue would go better \( least \) gays showed awareness practical issue example men women use different hence men likely abuse girls avenue closed many situations easy prevent sexual abuse two sexes measures social conventions harder prevent gays gays abuse children \( want \) became aware practical problem solve good sides , protection parents children time protection gays ways importance pursuit happiness way thought rohit parikh sorry , rohit , responding someone well recognized flaming nut , e , clayton cramer must abused man living life attempt men like sex men something slightly similar way assailant liked alter misrepresent anything finds try prove homosexuals wish rape little boys like coming woodwork hope probability secretly gay , compounds mind , thinking someone else made way n't personally see someone like could walk chew gum time , mentally crippled dominated fantasies would believe figures percentage people like sex sometime time way smaller , virtually assert everyone 's queer 're trying get actually believes , despite evidence homosexuals huge disproportionate amount child sexual abuse , even though insists may 1 male population ! population , san francisco would currently empty , significant portion sought tolerant atmosphere city , numbers simply work add home town origins nothing gained communicating clayton cramer , unable listen anyone rsw richard steven walz rstevew deeptht armory com \( 408 \) 429 1200 515 maple street 1 without safe free abortion women santa cruz , ca 95060 organ surrogates unwanted parasites real men would never accept organ slavery protect women sorry , n't see response applies posted unless badly mistaken , rohit suggesting protecting boys men different protecting girls men situations boys girls apart members opposite sex \( due social convention whatever \) thus safe \( least sense \) situations n't \( necessarily \) protect children abuse members sex understand , 's tremendous leap suggest think hard , someone may come practical solution \( even partial solution \) situations children made vulnerable homosexuals wish abuse working together good sides , may able start solving problems without restricting anyone 's freedoms mr walz hand using rohit 's post excuse personal attacks mr cramer mr walz n't \( long stretch \) one flame mr cramer , less childish serves weaken arguments may make future rick roy usenet rick howtek mv com america online qed disclaimer employer 's views orthogonal early bird got worms
tzs stein2 u washington edu \( tim smith \) subject tax evasion considered unpatriotic \? organization university washington school law , class '95 lines 7 nntp posting host stein2 u washington edu ipser solomon technet sg \( ed ipser \) writes deeper reason taxes , nature , un american one need look birth history us see fact 's 13 newly independent states tax systems tim smith
corp mot com \( \) subject concentrate child molesters \? organization motorola , ccr , corp , schaumburg , il nntp posting host 137 23 47 37 lines 21 article pdxgate uucp rigel cs pdx edu \( chris \) writes \) auvm american edu \( martina cartwright \) writes \) \) \) official legal term rape crime forcing female \) submit sexual intercourse \) \) please , supply references aware states \) word female rape statutes sure others surprised \) well know thats works practice \( nice n fair , ! ! \) , \) unaware statutes applying females , \) uniformly throughout u agree mostly chris \( unfortunately , imo \) true fbi figures rape based crime report female rapes however , states \( illinois \) refuse comply sexist definition ! worms crawl worms crawl worms post net account
cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) subject concentrate child molesters \? article optilink organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 42 article h2 exnet co uk , s0xjg exnet co uk \( xavier gallagher \) writes article optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes article 761 unix portal com , shell portal com \( harry benjamin gibson \) writes believe right force people hire , rent , business , regardless feelings beliefs person cramer , target law forces one obey every point individual may stand say law sucks even could say gay men women forced mean passed law nothing \? enforcement mechanisms \? usual , wrong changes law brought democratic processes , processes ones protect certain abuses yeah , right guess next time homosexual complains sodomy laws , echo stupidity democratic processes wo n't basis complaint must admit never understood referred abomination , started read soc motss , started finding evidence homosexuality response child molestation disproportionately done homosexuals \( make brian kane happy 30 molestation done homosexuals bisexuals , possible homosexual bisexual molesters far victims heterosexual molesters \) n't n't n't depends subset \( note subset \) abuse look repeating three times makes correct \? clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent , xavier gallagher play clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent ,
cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) subject concentrate child molesters \? article optilink organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 29 article 1993apr3 1 kosmos wcc govt nz , quirke kosmos wcc govt nz writes cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes thought clear homosexuals support laws force employment homosexuals employers , attempting interfere private acts mutually consenting adults ok , 'll leave others discuss use statistics , think i'm able discuss ideas ideas good seek maximise individual rights keeping governments transactions consenting adults employer wants discriminate group , allowed maximise freedom go elsewhere unfortunately , n't relate total individual rights within community employer whatever discriminate way , freedom goes people live perfect economic conditions , perfect mobility , unlimited numbers potential employers skills , unlimited places buy goods , argument leads decrease amount liberty community mean , large part population supports discrimination homosexuals , injured large part population supports discrimination , law get passed \? tony quirke , wellington , new zealand quirke kosmos wcc govt nz clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent ,
cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) subject concentrate child molesters \? article optilink 15213 organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 20 article pdxgate uucp , rigel cs pdx edu \( chris \) writes auvm american edu \( martina cartwright \) writes official legal term rape crime forcing female submit sexual intercourse please , supply references aware states word female rape statutes sure others surprised well know thats works practice \( nice n fair , ! ! \) , unaware statutes applying females , uniformly throughout u chris may confusion uniform crime reports program run fbi defines rape female victim crime even though states laws de suspect causes male victims rape left ucr data clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent ,
cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) subject ca 's pedophilia laws article optilink organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 91 article 1993apr3 4999 hobbes kzoo edu , k044477 hobbes kzoo edu \( jamie r mccarthy \) writes cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes unfortunately , homosexuals n't believe concept freedom believe right force people hire , rent , business , regardless feelings beliefs person allow point clayton unfairly lumping entire class people , one completely abyss believing queers world think differently child molestation advocating minority soc motss , n't even notice 's starting sentence believe referent millions people irrelevant n't want lumped together group , stop insisting treated member group dreitman oregon uoregon edu \( daniel r reitman , attorney \) writes force people hire \? require people give fair look \? yes cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes give fair look decide n't want hire guy wearing nambla shirt files lawsuit lose yes , laws force hire homosexuals pedophiles , well \? sexual orientation defined anti discrimination law passed last year pedophilia n't sexual orientation \? , cramer , let describe 'd , see accurate apply job computer company see i'm wearing article homosexual , dunno , maybe silence death pin something turn ca n't darned thing go look somewhere else correct assuming wholeheartedly approve company 's actions , least wholeheartedly support right take action \? wholeheartedly support right take action would n't , unless something like nambla shirt black man applies job bank bank decides , based statistics , black person would likely steal money , denies man job would support bank 's right freedom \? , explain differs support right \( like support right engage sodomy consenting adults \) , think something wrong would n't business bank clayton repeatedly said california 's statutes classify pedophilia sexual orientation , discriminating basis sexual orientation illegal true , i'm frankly amazed n't trust clayton give whole story would someone clarify whether true , sort discrimination clayton 's talking \( jobs \? housing \? hate crimes \? \) , whether effect law really daycare hire admitted pedophile jamie mccarthy internet k044477 kzoo edu applelink j mccarthy 's law passed signed governor people state california enact follows 1 section 1 purpose act codify 2 existing case law determined gay law students v 3 pacific telephone telegraph , 24 cal 3d 458 \( 1979 \) 4 v dayton hudson corp , 235 cal app 3d 654 5 \( 1991 \) prohibiting discrimination based sexual 6 orientation 7 sec 2 section 1102 added labor code , 8 read 9 1102 1 \( \) sections 1101 1102 prohibit 10 discrimination disparate treatment terms 11 conditions employment based actual 12 perceived sexual orientation 13 \( b \) section shall apply religious 14 association corporation organized private 15 profit , whether incorporated religious public 16 benefit corporation clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent ,
cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) subject concentrate child molesters \? article optilink organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 25 article honour welly gen nz , honour welly gen nz \( \) writes cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes unfortunately , homosexuals n't believe concept freedom believe right force people hire , rent , business , regardless feelings beliefs person ha ha ha , oh , clayton , 're good , consistent , predictable , yup , 's right , , homosexual people want force ignore 's none fucking business ie explain slowly sexual orientation irrelevant , irrelevant gender , skin colour , religious affiliation , attitude hand gun ownership , etc want force hire best person job , rent accomodation person look , business whoever make money yet , law proposed virginia extended philosophy cigarette smokers \( people smoked away work could n't discriminated employers \) , liberal gov wilder vetoed shows liberals n't give damn best person job , 's power play clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent ,
cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) subject homosexuals article optilink organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 21 article netcom com , erics netcom com \( eric smith \) writes gsmith lauren iwr uni heidelberg de \( gene w smith \) writes saying \( 1 \) people voted hitler , became reich chancellor , good part used bully boys attack communists , hitler become become reich chancellor people voted i'm sure meant imply , thought 'd bring eric smith hitler became chancellor people voted political party 's huge difference parliamentary system clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent ,
cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) subject lincoln slavery \( top ten tricks play american voter \) article optilink organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 36 article 1993apr3 isc br isc br com , steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) writes article netcom com kmitchel netcom com \( kenneth c mitchell \) writes slavery makes economic sense \( never makes moral sense \) human muscle power economically valuable asset agricultural slavery might lasted right first mechanical cotton reaper , cheaper slaves , n't fed winter argument makes several fundamental errors first agricultural slavery limited production cotton american south slave labor used extensively grow tobacco , sugar , rice , remained labor intensive enterprises well 20th century course , states like kentucky virginia , well suited large scale , slave labor used make one valuable agricultural products slaves ways , treatment humans beings breeding livestock horrifying aspect american slavery second , although cotton production could expected reduce demands labor eventually , 1940 's cotton production south largely eliminated labor intensive character operation , long first mechanical cotton reaper invented interesting question 's grapes wrath \( published 1930s \) , uses agricultural cotton production arkansas cause family evicted land many years involved cotton farming \? first appear \? ken mitchell powers delegated united states steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent ,
cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) subject lincoln slavery \( top ten tricks \) article optilink organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 37 article 1993apr4 isc br isc br com , steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) writes article 1993apr3 rigel econ uga edu depken rigel econ uga edu \( craig depken \) writes article 1993apr2 princeton edu phoenix princeton edu \( gary livingston \) writes labor tough one labor defined , economically , efforts , mental physical , humans capital defined intermediate goods used create goods services , slave considered intermediate good , slave simply machine good anti slave \( e pro human rights \) argument , slaves humans , produce labor sorry question defining slave labor tough \( er \) defining labor horse , ox , livestock legally economically slave economy , slaves \( \) humans , livestock provide evidence slave states regarded slaves humans \? outside society similar phrases basically meant n't recognized rights free person , never considered human knowledge like horse pulls plow , slave 's labor return capital required purchase feed parallel obvious i'm sure missed , liberty use property saw fit motivated southern emphasize importance states' rights case , slave states would passed many laws restricted freedom slave owners wished property examples laws prohibiting without legislative grant laws prohibiting teaching slaves read write craig steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent ,
cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) subject lincoln slavery \( top ten tricks play american voter \) article optilink organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 54 article 1993apr2 rigel econ uga edu , depken rigel econ uga edu \( craig depken \) writes article 1993mar31 isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) writes argument slavery dying institution often made \( \) historians , mainly , sought divert attention institution central issue civil war fact , however , argument specious , best recent scholarship last 20 30 years demonstrates rather conclusively cotton sugar tobacco economy reliance slavery increasingly dominant south prior civil war south receive massive momentum capital intensive growth northern states compare northern agricultural system southern see major difference capital labor intensity capital labor one slave economy except capital n't reproduce quite readily slaves slavery dying institution cotton , yes , 1850 true cotton suffered price depression 's period used claim slavery would lasted south argument heard would lasted growth north would sustained much longer without spilling southern states , e northern industry would migrated capital southern states , would come immigrant labor ports south , e g charleston , , mobile , new orleans , etc would put breaks slave market slavery would capital intensity competing insisted keeping slaves cruel hearts hatred black people would driven business simple capital labor ratio read michael parkin 2nd edition , basic economics book assumes slave holder dominance state governments would caused passage laws keep capital north since slave holders prepared almost anything else destroy free markets order maintain slavery , doubt would passed laws cripple serious competitive threat thomas 's market minorities argues maintenance slavery , costs imposed state local governments , discouraged capital formation , also outside capital investment southern states craig depken , ii clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent ,
cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) subject lincoln slavery \( top ten tricks play american voter \) article optilink organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 16 article 1993apr2 princeton edu , phoenix princeton edu \( gary livingston \) writes article 1993apr2 rigel econ uga edu depken rigel econ uga edu \( craig depken \) writes concluded south wanted free trade ! ! ! , wanted slavery free trade economic interests regime \( \) , free trade wanted gary l phoenix princeton edu course , free trade slavery n't make much sense together phrase anyway perhaps mr depken meant , low import , quite bit less free trade clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent ,
leland stanford edu \( david william budd \) subject rodney king trial , civil rights violations , double jeopardy distribution us organization dsg , stanford university , ca 94305 , usa lines 53 article ncratl atlantaga ncr com mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com \( mark wilson \) writes 1993apr2 husc3 harvard edu husc11 harvard edu \( david \) writes furthermore , specific charges four lapd officers \? civil rights laws accused violating \? believe general charge , specific right mentioned n't think accurate believe , could wrong , specific right allegedly violated , like 14th due process whatever double jeopardy \? concern verdict koon , et al might overturned upon appeal 're tried actions \? \( thought heard something news \) ss previously ruled since seperate governments essence seperate , double jeopardy apply \( true , could defendents also tried city county governments \? \) mornings paper said aclu decided reinstate opposition kind thing earlier suspended opposition examined king case might hope aclu double jeopardy apply , reasons quote double jeopardy states person may tried twice charge however , police trial crime excessive force assault trial different crime violating mr king 's civil rights city county state trying , likely happen cities states separate laws governing behaviour example , states , offence carry marijuana , city offence also , think murder federal , state laws ! ! 1 1 ! 1 1 1 mind filled wonder , ! 1 1 1 evening headlines read ! ! 1 1 cory went home last night , ! ! put bullet head ' !
schwarze caltech edu \( erich schwarz \) subject 19th century capitalism organization caltech , div biology lines 38 distribution world nntp posting host bio caltech edu article jane uh edu , jane uh edu \( chris \) wrote christian writes people good getting best deal effort , others unwilling put forth much effort , even face economic incentives always people stupid lazy , relative ability effort others question \? three options 2 \) kill productive drain upon society communist \( toil shall eat lenin \) fascist approach 're generous communists , think practice , communism solved problem killing anybody productive , therefore raises embarrassing questions rest group bunch mass butchery ussr good instance poor second best neighboring capitalist country people politically incorrect skill ambition flee often wonder castro would done cubans presently miami would forced remain cuba would revolted killed , killed \? best build wall locking citizens country , load heavily attack dogs , wire , land mines people fleeing die , give everyone choice obedience , prison , flight would bad science fiction novel , east germans n't actually done last person die crossing wall , recall , unarmed woman shot back erich going go trial , fled socialists chile 's good kind one 's intellectual opponents , sometimes 's sheer waste time erich schwarz schwarze caltech edu
steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) subject top ten reasons aid russians summary constitutional basis foreign aid organization historical accuracy , inc lines 22 nntp posting host thor isc br com article encore com rcollins ns encore com \( roger collins \) writes ask , law could pass prevent government stupid , frivilous things money \? think , constitution supposed could someone please tell legitimate constitutional power federal government using takes money paycheck gives needy countries \? seriously roger collins since asked , article section 1 article section 8 article section 10 article ii section 2 article vi sixteenth amendment guide , try reading jsh steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing data , sure cut uucp ! uunet ! isc br ! thor ! steveh bulls r hofferbert bell 509 838 8826
riggs descartes etl army mil \( bill riggs \) subject hard times investments \( subject given \) organization corporation , riverdale , md lines 50 nntp posting host descartes tec army mil article usenet ins cwru edu an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) writes previous article , riggs descartes etl army mil \( bill riggs \) says much land , long run , zero sum game going someone , somewhere , going make killing real estate markets worst thing panic best thing ride end hurts , 're better sell short donate someone else 's inheritance sad paradigm shift coming , chum ride wave ! n't believe wave theory 's much land oh , god , mike zimmer 's replacement \? ! mother law , grew germany , n't believe money started real estate developer , raises horses keeps telling inflation coming back , lock fixed rate mortgage low possible , let spell spell two trillion dollar bank \? maybe 'd like invest foreign currency one would guess come top \? \( sigh never learn \) bill r proposals senate opinions represent seen fit mention particularly employer praiseworthy particularly scandalous ones government agency seems historian 's foremost bill riggs duty ensure virtue remembered , deter evil words deeds fear 's damnation , annals iii 65
riggs descartes etl army mil \( bill riggs \) subject losers \( stop putting white het males \) keywords racism , sexism , organization corporation , riverdale , md lines 152 nntp posting host descartes tec army mil article 1993apr2 galileo cc rochester edu as010b uhura cc rochester edu \( tree schnopia \) writes 1993apr2 jato jpl nasa gov michael neuron6 jpl nasa gov \( michael \) writes n't know white male know white males , class , done 've invented light bulb , automobile , airplane , printing movable type , photography , computers , electric guitar , rocket powered space flight , computer , electricity , telephone , tv , motion pictures , \( sp \) , telescopes , nylon , x ray machine two glaring errors first , white males n't anything class individual white males invented things , means nothing white males whole second , neglected mention charles manson , hitler , mccarthy , jack ripper , ted bundy , whole slew individuals done horrible , evil things white males take credit fellow white , must also take blame claim deserve neither credit blame things told , u barbara jordan , biologically incapable compassion 's full shit told susan 're rapists 's 's full shit 're told catherine false rape charge actually good us 's full shit told feminist lawyers trusted children 're full shit told , newsweek magazine , poor sports complain newsweek full shit point , ladies \? michael entirely correct theory members race gender made great advances , race gender whole deserve respect receive white males deserve treated better treated , reason male bashers quoted repugnant hate , better despise one 's right , usual white males need wake realize 're unfair , yes everyone else needs wake realize unfair right back disgusting , racist sexist ca n't learn treat everyone fairly , without generalizing \? stupidity gene makes difficult \? 'd like buy world clue word missing whole discourse b word , h word , even n w words l word loser ! ! 's right boil crap argument , winning losing , nothing else let explain remember eighties \? excuses nobody handle mail buffer claim young remember ronald reagan yet eighties america learned win \( would n't know \) , well nothing left win cold war endure nuclear holocaust worlds conquer \( forgot outer space long ago \) kind overwhelming , holds barred success killed alexander great yes , little problems along way stock market meltdown , l , revolts crazy middle eastern dictators contend , would tell , god never good meantime , guilt winning , maybe fear one n't deserve one 's bounty success kinder gentler type politician days , bill clinton , affirmative action , lots discourse people n't get us winning business , kind talk mildly irritating , still suggestion losing find \? put , stereotype white male non winner woody hayes rose bowl , punching california fruits nuts steal another one hail mary pass fourth quarter \( whole idea behind 'three yards cloud wear opponent collapses final period \) woody used fists seem weapon choice days , anyway \? answer plain horn rims face guy michael douglas , posing loser known controversial casting short white shirt sure look natural mike n't gordon never look \( though woody always dressed way \) really expect take easy enjoy kind wardrobe , without putting fuss \? starting lose sight , bashing game bashing poor african american slug clint eastwood used blow away time arch wasp \( male gender \) george c scott , americans traditionally love win love winner , tolerate loser political implications simple , many socialists democrats , consider society finite pie equitable way , worry winner loser tell whose side could black women today , asian homosexuals tommorrow , yes indeed , white men yet determined day balance pie finally swung \( 39 \) minority blow whole thing say conservatives libertarians act n't care 's winning 's losing cases , might say something make sure game fair \( equality opportunity , condition \) latter case , might able identify depending much want limit pot either way go , way winner longer way popular least graduate high school \( 'll still popular high school \) beats nerd , would imagine michael douglas would agree , long run , way go \( even hollywood , treats losers worse place america except new york washington , c even columbus , ohio , produced alex , champion football teams eighties first quarter nineties \) 'd like see winners society , regardless race , gender , religious preference , sexual orientation maybe even let white men ! ! \( definitely let win rose bowl someday \) bill r proposals senate opinions represent seen fit mention particularly employer praiseworthy particularly scandalous ones government agency seems historian 's foremost bill riggs duty ensure virtue remembered , deter evil words deeds fear 's damnation , annals iii 65
kaldis romulus rutgers edu \( theodore kaldis \) subject formal rebuttal presumption jurisdiction organization rutgers univ , new brunswick , n j lines 13 article 1993apr5 midway uchicago edu thf2 kimbark uchicago edu \( ted frank \) writes 're breathing clean air provided government regulations , n't beat ever heard ! certainly says mindset ted frank , also statists everywhere views expressed herein theodore kaldis seriously kaldis remus rutgers edu believe major university ! rutgers ! remus rutgers edu ! kaldis would hold views \? \? \?
zippy hairball ecst csuchico edu \( pinhead \) subject 50 , 000 reward ! 1993apr4 colorado edu 1993apr4 colorado edu oregon uoregon edu organization california state university , chico lines 51 nntp posting host hairball ecst csuchico edu reply dreitman oregon uoregon edu 's message 05 apr 1993 12 49 00 pst article oregon uoregon edu dreitman oregon uoregon edu \( daniel r reitman , attorney \) writes article 1993apr4 colorado edu ajteel dendrite cs colorado edu \( j teel \) writes , definition resident specific thing alien look remember common usage words always legal meaning gotta see authority black 's law dictionary , revised 4th ed , page residence factual place abode living particular locality reese v reese , 179 misc 665 , 40 n 2d 468 , 472 zimmerman , 175 585 , 155 p 2d 293 , 295 requires bodily presence inhabitant place campbell 's , 216 minn 113 , 11 n w 2d 786 , 789 usually place , frequently used meaning , identical terms , person may two places residence , city country , one domicile residence means living particular locality , domicile means living locality intent make fixed permanent home residence simply requires bodily presence inhabitant given place , domicile requires bodily presence place also intention make one 's domicile riley 's , 266 n 209 , 148 misc 588 demands less intimate local ties , '' allows absence period intent return remains immigration act 1917 , sec 3 , 8 u c sec 136 \( e , p \) v , c c n , 74 f 2d 732 , 733 see , ward v ward , 115 , w va 429 , 176 e 708 , 709 southwestern greyhound lines v craig , 182 610 , 80 p 2d 221 , 224 holding residence domicile synonymous terms meaning dependent context purpose statute jones , 341 pa 329 , 19 2d 280 , 282 words may identical variable meaning depending subject matter context statute kemp v kemp , 16 n 2d 26 , 34 , 172 misc 738 legal residence see legal resident one residence place see residence also tenant , obliged reside lord 's land , depart called , also , levant et , '' normandy , du '' ronald cole e mail zippy ecst csuchico edu senior software engineer phone 1 916 899 2100 international bill rights void prohibited law
thf2 kimbark uchicago edu \( ted frank \) subject hate crimes laws article midway 1993apr6 reply thf2 midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 40 article 1993apr5 22304 news acns nwu edu dmeier casbah acns nwu edu \( douglas meier \) writes article 1993apr4 isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) writes article 1993apr3 news acns nwu edu dmeier casbah acns nwu edu \( douglas meier \) writes someone beats homosexual , get charged assault battery must add gay bashing list \? n't sort double jeopardy \? fascist \? \( \) deter epidemic gay bashing deterred assault laws ought make beating homosexual illegal beating straight \? 's advocating \? hate crimes laws aimed motivations acts like premeditated homicide treated stricter heat passion homicide \( \) , double jeopardy single act may lead multiple charges multiple crimes think meant say , current mutation us constitution current police state , someone may charged multiple times one act victim question right shade single act never merit charge set bomb world trade center , charged one murder , five deaths extensive property damage \? , bomb single act douglas c meier ca n't play electro magnetic golf ted frank however teel mentioned though thf2 kimbark uchicago edu advice legally sound , follow u c law school probably wind jail standard disclaimers james donald , misc legal
ucs usl edu \( ott edward \) subject e mail organization univ southwestern la , lafayette distribution usa lines 7 anyone e mail address white house please send thanks lot
zippy hairball ecst csuchico edu \( pinhead \) subject formal rebuttal presumption jurisdiction 1993apr5 cae prds cdx mot com organization california state university , chico lines 21 nntp posting host hairball ecst csuchico edu reply dan cae prds cdx mot com 's message 05 apr 1993 06 48 53 pst article 1993apr5 cae prds cdx mot com dan cae prds cdx mot com \( dan \) writes amazing illustration reality glad see agree current government admitting sovereignty people ! speaking personal experience , judges illegally assume jurisdiction even demanded da prove jurisdiction record , da stood mute also court uphold action hide behind california rules court , rule 106 \( judges department shall required write opinions cases decided , may whenever deem advisable public interest \) reality , agree ronald cole e mail zippy ecst csuchico edu senior software engineer phone 1 916 899 2100 international bill rights void prohibited law
subject new funding plan military medkeffjs hirama hiram edu \( jeff medkeff \) organization hiram college nntp posting host hirama hiram edu lines 20 article wetware com , drieux wetware com \( drieux , drieux \) writes \( armed services \) ps maybe even organization , consider various aspects dod part current knows , maybe finally allowed free market take control , longer military run folks running post office pps slow , think flame , rhetoric well , uh , actually agree jeffrey medkeff bitnet medkeffjs hiramb po box 1098 internet medkeffjs hiramb hiram edu hiram , oh pale thought wrong fight u roaring bill \( killed \) thought right
erics netcom com \( eric smith \) subject trickle \( 1937 dan quayle , genius organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 36 garrett ingres com writes medtronic com \( robert \) writes jason k schechner \( jks2x holmes acc virginia edu \) wrote article srvr1 engin umich edu jwh citi umich edu writes decade live \? unemployment dropped 80 's , inflation dropped 80 's interest rates dropped 80 's may true , 're paying , nose current recession \( would argue world 's first , 're recession 've record number months straight economic growth even democrats admitting recession ended march 1991 months 's unemployment rate california 9 4 sure feels like recession maybe ask 83 , 103 people laid january whether 're recession figure reported new york times official figure , bureau labor statistics stopped government tracking eight months ago due budget cuts \( information published harper 's index , harper 's magazine \) eric smith day dan quayle president day erics netcom com shelley winters runs bulls erics infoserv com dennis miller ci 70262 , 3610
dmeier casbah acns nwu edu \( douglas meier \) subject hate crimes laws article news 1993apr6 organization northwestern university , evanston illinois lines 25 nntp posting host acns nwu edu article 1993apr6 midway uchicago edu thf2 midway uchicago edu writes article 1993apr5 22304 news acns nwu edu dmeier casbah acns nwu edu \( douglas meier \) writes think meant say , current mutation us constitution current police state , someone may charged multiple times one act victim question right shade single act never merit charge set bomb world trade center , charged one murder , five deaths extensive property damage \? , bomb single act ted frank however teel mentioned though , mr frank come rescue cool headed reason , one charge per victim \? course 'll think days find case n't apply either heck , n't study law , hate lawyers \) douglas c meier ca n't play electro magnetic golf northwestern university , acns according rules university commie huxley , brave new world lib pinko views dmeier casbah acns nwu edu
uucp \( \) subject many spent waco batf \? \? organization mae distribution na lines 18 hi , wonder much money spent waco batf \? paying batf messed made prestige issue \? \? unix technical support e mail address com
cdm pmafire inel gov \( dale cook \) subject tax evasion considered unpatriotic \? organization winco lines 32 article newsserver technet sg ipser solomon technet sg \( ed ipser \) writes article 1993mar31 pmafire inel gov cdm pmafire inel gov \( dale cook \) writes article s1 gov lip s1 gov \( loren petrich \) writes title self explanatory isaac asimov pointed curious fact well , since tax evasion illegal , one generally would bother consider whether unpatriotic often one think murder unpatriotic \? perhaps appropriate question would tax avoidance considered unpatriotic \? answer simple tax avoidance simply defined paying minimum tax legally obligated pay deeper reason taxes , nature , un american one need look birth history us see fact n't beef english taxation without representation , taxation \? admittedly dim recollection us history , problems americans taxes unfair unjust taxation schemes , taxes 's pretty hard run government without means support dale cook town churches bars serious social problem edward abbey opinions mine \( e , employer 's \)
andersom spot colorado edu \( marc anderson \) subject response nntp posting host spot colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 113 fucking news reader n't think got posted , ignore time \( response \) begin response article matt ksu ksu edu matt ksu ksu edu \( j \) writes lamontg u washington edu writes well , quick medline scan came following article reviews literature , 'd probably start document 13 au p department medicine , university california , school medicine , los angeles 90024 ti complications smoked substance abuse rf review article 61 refs n't information faq marijuana \? expect people think telling truth drugs , group constantly refute every negative thing almost drugs maybe claims deserve refute \? abstract lists various possible links use \( almost guaranteed \) lung problems someone may get overly excited see article , without actually digging study seeing studies gathered data really n't tell shit i'm going track study hopefully never claimed pot less cigarettes trying keep honest going educate kids adults tell truth drugs n't think much better approach would list pro 's con 's type drug justifies truth drugs \? research \? sort research \? data help establish theory , prove anything expect someone make decision one hand says drugs absolutely bad bad bad newsgroup consistently refuses admit drugs like heroin even negative side effects heroin relatively safe drug makes unsafe iv administration shit like side effects , like withdrawal , effect people differently 've seen numerous posts claiming heroin lower addiction rates cigarettes , might true , deceiving , heroin much harmful drug addicted cigarettes heroin addicts far prone end gutter destroy family friends people addicted cigarettes stereotypical statement know people use heroin function fine society group provide good information people , worried pro legalization pro movement hurt refuses admit drugs harmful name drugs debate specifically i'm legalization drugs , someone asks relative risks certain drugs possible bad side effects , would like know given run around group recently tried tell pot harmful manner people 's lungs , , \( least n't arguing \) enough data form scientific conclusion n't mean benign users' lungs form theories want , theories theories supported evidence others , makes stronger think 's time y'all examined positions try understand cannot fight calling bunch liars hell ca n't ! state un justified conclusions fact political strategy stop drug use general , somewhat see 're saying people like jack contribute quite big mind fuck recently , 've pretty came conclusion ca n't trust anybody word mouth alone attitude general population decreased significantly gotta run class marc andersom spot colorado edu bitnet \) \) \( ` ksu edu \( \) matt ksu edu
rcanders nyx cs du edu \( mr nice guy \) subject celebrate liberty ! 1993 x disclaimer nyx public access unix system run university denver denver community university neither control responsibility opinions users organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept lines 10 bad know japan bashing 2 weeks ago finding set postings third time hope one shows n't know fools insist posting every group people rod anderson n0nzo acceptable substitute boulder , co brains silence rcanders nyx cs du edu solomon short satellite n0nzo ao 16
deane binah cc brandeis edu \( david matthew deane \) subject public hearings ballot access , vote fraud issues reply deane binah cc brandeis edu organization brandeis university lines 11 hmmm \( long \) message , twice \? well , n't care libertarianism , disagreement , tactical one reform existing laws would awfully good idea would n't believe outrageous things guardians two party system shut dissent david matthew deane \( deane binah cc brandeis edu \) words fold open , means death doors even windows sense danger \( liner \)
phil netcom com \( phil ronzone \) subject part 4 \( looks like clayton must retract organization generally favor , mostly random distribution ca lines 48 article elroy jpl nasa gov carlos beowulf jpl nasa gov \( carlos carrion \) writes greatly increased rates incarceration amongst blacks show dysfunctional majority support criminal activity \? n't matter demographics \? n't simply show since criminal behaviour common \( apt common \) 18 34 \( insert favorite correct numbers \) year old range since percentage blacks range higher groups , follows statistically blacks prison expected result \? note n't said anything blacks given stiffer longer sentences groups i'm sure effect issue representation blacks prison blacks \( 2 \) crime report rate , arrest rate , incarceration rate violent crimes doubt violent crimes , inherent bias mechanism present wider discrepancy crimes blacks wrt 3 categories interestingly enough , discrepancy largest southern united states blacks incarcerated well average rest united states ! points anti bias wrt blacks case , violent crimes drug selling , blacks reported 53 , arrested 44 , present prisons 47 \( 1988 \) considering 12 population black , 6 black males , percentage high low age groups , situation \( remember old calculations right \) 4 population commits almost half really nasty crimes blacks similar histories \( crime \) whites get sentences , except south , receive around 20 less paper ! ! actually people still believe love canal kind environmental disaster weird , eh \? opinions mine , ca n't 'em ! \( 'll rent 'em cheap \)
schwarze caltech edu \( erich schwarz \) subject top ten reasons hillary n't like men uniform organization caltech , div biology lines 20 distribution world nntp posting host bio caltech edu article newsserver technet sg , ipser solomon technet sg \( ed ipser \) wrote top ten reasons hillary n't like men uniform 6 keep stuff embarassing copyright \( c \) edward ipser , jr , 1993 ed ridicule intelligence people , learn spell errors , indeed , embarassing us read alt politics libertarian allegedly superior ideas writing erich schwarz schwarze caltech edu
mentor cc purdue edu \( tony c \) subject guilty guilty \( fault law \) article mentor 586 organization purdue university computing center lines 6 thanks everyone sent replies regarding case informative helped much thanks ! c
phil netcom com \( phil ronzone \) subject temper tantrums 1960 's organization generally favor , mostly random distribution usa lines 40 article 1993apr5 cbnewsi cb att com gadfly cbnewsi cb att com \( gadfly \) writes let get straight nice , long rant people need take personal responsibility economic social lives , sudden 1960 's radicals \( , guess \) responsible poor people 's lifestyles \? tell works think poor people dumb think \? many reasons disintegration family support systems general among nation 's poor somehow n't think murphy brown joplin top sane person 's list want go generation 's vaunted cultural revolution lasting change worse , try called relevant values education hey , seemed like good idea time know needed real education first mean , took granted 1960 's generation spoiled irresponsible depression create mothers fathers determined kids would want anything going overboard creating nation consider contrast two famous events july 1969 apollo 11 woodstock group large numbers people could feed reverted cultural level primitives \( public etc \) group assembled , took care , dispersed damage , deaths , large numbers drug problems actually people still believe love canal kind environmental disaster weird , eh \? opinions mine , ca n't 'em ! \( 'll rent 'em cheap \)
deane binah cc brandeis edu \( david matthew deane \) subject public hearings ballot access , vote fraud issues reply deane binah cc brandeis edu organization brandeis university lines 281 article 1993apr5 dsd es com , bob waldrop f418 n104 z1 fidonet org \( bob waldrop \) writes announcing announcing announcing announcing public hearings compliance united states government governments states florida , louisiana , arkansas , missouri , west virginia , north carolina , indiana , maryland , oklahoma , nevada , wyoming , georgia , maine certain international agreements signed united states government , particular , international covenant civil political rights \( signed 5 october 1977 \) document copenhagen meeting conference human dimension conference security cooperation europe \( june 1990 \) democracy project celebrate liberty ! 1993 libertarian national convention political expo sept 2 5 , 1993 salt palace convention center hotel salt lake city , utah hearings investigate charges governments referenced routinely violate political democratic rights political minority parties persons interested testifying hearings , submitting written documentary evidence , contact bob waldrop p box salt lake city , ut \( 801 \) 582 bob waldrop f418 n104 z1 fidonet org examples possible information interest includes evidence testimony regarding \( 1 \) unfair unequal treatment political minorities \( 2 \) physical assaults volunteers , candidates , members minority parties \( 3 \) arrests minority party , candidates , members engaged political activity \( 4 \) structural barriers organizing third parties running office anything democrat republican \( e g signature totals required put new parties candidates ballots , requirements third parties democrats republicans required meet , etc \) \( 5 \) taxpayer subsidies democratic republican candidates denied available third parties \( 6 \) non reporting minority party vote totals \( e g stating totals democratic republican party candidates equal 100 vote \) \( 7 \) state , governors , courts hear redress grievances third parties , unfavorable rulings laws discriminating third parties \( 8 \) refusal allow registration member third party registering vote \( states partisan voter registration optional required \) \( 9 \) vote fraud , stuffing ballot boxes , losing ballots , fixing elections , threatening candidates , ballot printing errors machine voting irregularities , dishonest corrupt election officials , refusal register third party voters allow filing third party candidates failure print third party registration options official voter registration documents intimidation third party voters candidates criminal acts local , county , state federal election officials \( 10 \) exclusion third party candidates debate forums sponsored public schools , state colleges universities , governments \( including events carried television radio stations owned subsidized governments \( 11 \) information relevant topic information solicited incidents relating non democratic non republican political parties , libertarian , new alliance , socialist workers party , natural law party , taxpayers , populist , consumer , green , american , communist , etc , well independent candidates john anderson , ross perot , eugene mccarthy , barry , etc representatives governments referenced invited respond allegations relevant sections document copenhagen meeting referenced \( participating states \) recognize democracy rule law essential ensuring respect human rights fundamental freedoms therefore welcome commitment expressed participating states ideals democracy political participating states express conviction full respect human rights fundamental freedoms development societies based democracy progress setting lasting order peace , security , justice , co operation therefore reaffirm commitment implement fully provisions final act csce documents relating human dimension order strengthen respect , enjoyment , human rights fundamental freedoms , develop human contacts resolve issues related humanitarian character , participating states agree following \( 2 \) consider rule law mean merely formal legality assures regularity consistency achievement enforcement democratic order , justice based recognition full acceptance supreme value human personality guaranteed institutions providing framework fullest expression \( 3 \) reaffirm democracy inherent element rule law recognize importance regard political organizations \( 4 \) confirm respect 's right freely choose develop , accordance international human rights standards , political , social , economic cultural systems exercising right , ensure laws , regulations , practices , policies conform obligations international law brought harmony provisions declaration principles csce commitments \( 5 \) declare among elements justice essential full expression inherent dignity equal inalienable rights human beings following \( 5 4 \) clear separation state political parties particular , political parties merged state \( 7 \) ensure people serves basis authority government , participating states \( 7 4 \) ensure \( votes \) counted reported honestly official results made public \( 7 5 \) respect right citizens seek political public office , individually representatives political parties organizations , without discrimination relevant sections international covenant 5 october 1977 referenced states parties present covenant recognizing ideal free human beings enjoying civil political freedom freedom fear want achieved conditions created whereby everyone may enjoy civil political rights , well economic , social , cultural rights , considering obligation states charter united nations promote universal respect , observance , human rights freedoms agree upon following articles article 2 \( 1 \) state party present covenant respect ensure individuals within territory subject jurisdiction rights recognized present covenant , without distinction kind , race , colour , sex , language , religion , political opinion , national social origin , property , birth , status \( 2 \) already provided existing legislative measures , state party present covenant take necessary steps , accordance constitutional processes provisions present covenant , adopt legislative measures may necessary give effect rights recognized present covenant article 3 states parties present covenant undertake ensure equal right men women enjoyment civil political rights set forth present covenant article 25 every citizen shall right opportunity , without distinctions mentioned article 2 without unreasonable restrictions \( \) take part conduct public affairs , directly freely chosen representatives \( b \) vote elected genuine periodic elections shall universal equal shall held secret ballot , guaranteeing free expression \( c \) access , general terms equality , public service country article 26 persons equal law entitled without discrimination equal protection law respect , law shall prohibit discrimination guarantee persons equal effective protection discrimination ground race , colour , sex , language , religion , political opinion , national social origin , property , birth , status peace without freedom think globally act locally resist much obey little question authority comments bob waldrop responsibility bob waldrop ! good time call 415 457 e mail bob waldrop f418 n104 z1 fidonet org snail mail p box salt lake city , utah united states america voice phone \( 801 \) 582 n't blame voted libertarian disclaimer speak , except noted copyright 1993 rich thomson uucp ! uunet ! dsd es com ! rthomson rich thomson internet rthomson dsd es com irc rich pext programmer david matthew deane \( deane binah cc brandeis edu \) words fold open , means death doors even windows sense danger \( liner \)
deane binah cc brandeis edu \( david matthew deane \) subject public hearings ballot access , vote fraud issues reply deane binah cc brandeis edu organization brandeis university lines 10 ack ! sorry repeat posts thought posting newsgroup appeared could n't figure n't appearing newsgroup stupid slap hands bang head wall sorry ! bloody public mumble mumble mumble david matthew deane \( deane binah cc brandeis edu \) words fold open , means death doors even windows sense danger \( liner \)
deane binah cc brandeis edu \( david matthew deane \) subject public hearings ballot access , vote fraud issues reply deane binah cc brandeis edu organization brandeis university lines 10 well , message interesting \( long \) , twice \? oh well personally , loathe libertarianism , disagreement , tactical election law reform good idea would believe kind stunts creatures 2 party system capable pulling david matthew deane \( deane binah cc brandeis edu \) words fold open , means death doors even windows sense danger \( liner \)
lefty apple com \( lefty \) subject motor voter organization lady heavy artillery lines 13 article apr 2 07 48 07 1993 romulus rutgers edu , kaldis romulus rutgers edu \( theodore kaldis \) wrote entered 1st grade , eisenhower president john f kennedy relatively obscure senator new england old think \? ask whether i'm surprised n't managed college time lefty \( lefty apple com \) c c ,
ipser solomon technet sg \( ed ipser \) subject government mandated energy conservation unnecessary wastful , study finds nntp posting host solomon technet sg lines 94 government mandated energy conservation unnecessary wastful , study finds washington , dc energy tax subsidized energy efficiency measures supported president clinton energy secretary o'leary based faulty assumptions , new study cato institute points according jerry taylor , cato 's director natural resource studies , running sources energy world almost 10 times proven oil reserves 1950 twice reserves 1970 proven reserves coal natural gas increased dramatically standards living , population densities , industrial structures controlled , united states less energy efficient japan energy efficient many group seven nations energy independence provides little protection domestic oil price shocks energy economy global moreover , since cost oil represents 2 percent gross national product , even large increases price oil would little impact overall u economy market economies , average , 2 75 times energy efficient per 1 , 000 gnp centrally planned economies subsidized energy efficiency , known demand side management programs , encourage free riders , overuse competing resource inputs , competitive furthermore , dsm programs reduce demand taylor concludes government mandated energy conservation imposes unnecessary costs consumers wastes , , energy subsidizing energy conservation technologies , advance , gains energy conservation central control modern society energy would transfer tremendous power state expense individual energy conservation efficiency case coercion 189 policy analysis series published cato institute , independent public policy research organization washington , dc available cato institute 224 second street se washington , dc 20003 cato institute founded 1977 , cato institute public policy research foundation dedicated parameters policy debate allow consideration options consistent traditional american principles limited government , individual liberty , peace end , institute achieve greater involvement intelligent , concerned lay public questions policy proper role government institute named cato 's letters , libertarian pamphlets widely read american colonies early 18th century played major role laying philosophical foundation american revolution despite achievement nation 's founders , today virtually aspect life free government encroachment intolerance individual rights shown government 's arbitrary intrusions private economic transactions disregard civil liberties counter trend cato institute extensive publications program addresses complete spectrum policy issues books , , shorter studies commissioned examine federal budget , social security , regulation , military spending , international trade , myriad issues major policy conferences held throughout year , papers published thrice yearly cato journal order maintain independence , cato institute accepts government funding contributions received foundations , corporations , individuals , revenue generated sale publications institute nonprofit , tax exempt , educational foundation section 501 \( c \) 3 internal revenue code cato institute 224 second street e washington , dc 20003
mcelwre cnsvax uwec edu subject secret purpose falklands war organization university wisconsin eau claire lines 918 secret purpose falklands war visibility technology dr beter audio letter 74 80 digitized jon , mail address cerf net audio letter \( r \) registered trademark audio books , inc , texas corporation , originally produced tape recording reproduced open license granted audio books , inc dr beter audio letter \( r \) , k st nw , washington , dc hello , friends , dr beter today april 30 , 1982 , audio letter \( r \) 74 's almost one month since war broke south atlantic surface seems 's dispute argentina great britain barren , wind swept falkland islands south georgia island reality , 's far called falklands crisis visible tip giant military operation month april 1982 , fierce naval battles taken place south atlantic also south pacific hostilities kept wraps wartime censorship sides say words , naval war southern hemisphere come surface beginning today , april 30 , total naval air blockade falklands royal navy begun time declared argentina area effective , blockade must imposed period time , royal navy much time winter coming south atlantic , british supply lines come far , majesty 's navy cannot simply drop blockade sail away weeks time without drawing blood argentina result british forced undertake military operations soon matter risky may also another reason royal navy choice engage argentine forces combat reason , friends , royal navy already suffered losses secret combat month moment way explain away damage sustained british fleet publicly admitted fighting british dare admit suffered battle losses obtain cover story , british choice sail combat , risking even heavier losses top already sustained short , friends , majesty 's navy sailed trap events south atlantic carry strange , ironic echoes past weeks 've hearing countless commentators referring british task force armada \( quote \) british people ought uneasy description original spanish armada 400 years ago renowned seemingly invincible fighting force , came grief naval disaster complete changed course history none english navy destroyed spanish armada original spanish armada put sea reign england 's queen elizabeth armada invasion fleet carrying thousands crack fighting men invade england met daring sea dogs sir francis drake drake small , fast ships turned tables spanish armada changing rules battle english fleet equipped new longer range guns , stayed reach english pounded , smashed , shattered big ships mighty armada , barely half spanish fleet left limp back port drake 's defeat spanish armada shock world opened door england queen elizabeth start expansion truly global empire today , 400 years later , history seems come full circle queen elizabeth ii witnessing dismantling world empire whose began queen elizabeth , cultures england spain confrontation called armada preparing invasion , time armada british , spanish four hundred years ago sir francis drake hero day today , ghost francis drake scene south atlantic war zone eastern end drake passage around southern tip south america defeat spanish armada four centuries ago broke back spain 's naval supremacy , defeat new british armada may well break back remains glorious royal navy three special topics audio letter topic 1 military secret south georgia island topic 2 secret naval war southern hemisphere topic 3 rockefeller fear campaign nuclear war topic 1 falkland islands crisis began early month looked first like tempest teapot century half since , islands controlled great britain entire time , british sovereignty falklands disputed argentina countless threats argentina seize islands , calls , threats always come nothing past britain never even gotten worried islands four times distant argentina cuba united states , much prize 150 years occupancy , falklands home fewer 2 , 000 british settlers lot sheep short , remote falkland islands hardly look like something fight , yet watching another crisis take place watching war great britain argentina thatcher government acting forgotten usual soviet threat nato 's doorstep instead , britain throwing almost everything 's got argentina aircraft carriers , cruisers , destroyers , submarines , assault ships name luxury cruise ships even commissioned turned troop carriers overnight wave wave additional assault troops activated sent join fleet even sailed ships submarines pulled station normal nato duty sent reinforce task force initial 40 ship force grown steadily past several weeks armada numbering 70 two thirds entire royal navy already deployed south atlantic argentina watching , lot people asking 's fight really \? popular answer suggested major media oil vast deposits oil known exist continental shelf argentina falklands , known nearly 10 years way explain timing sudden military offensive argentina month , oil explains even less argentine seizure south georgia island south georgia island 800 miles east falklands known oil deposits anywhere near compared south georgia , falklands island paradise south georgia island covered rugged mountains , valleys , , semi permanent snow top , argentina absolutely legal historical claim south georgia island respect stands sharp contrast falklands early falklands occupied argentine colonists british expelled took island historical reasons , argentina argues falklands really belong argentina , britain argument possible south georgia island always controlled britain , never argentina spain argentine seizure south georgia island looks even unreasonable military point view argentina 's leaders military men think military terms well aware ahead time far south georgia island could possibly held long seizing setting absorb military defeat , island britain question argentina 's military junta bother seemingly worthless south georgia island \? friends , answers questions military , political economic south georgia island possesses enormous military secret 's giant underground installation buried mountains northwest end island real reason called falkland crisis secret installation , together two similar installations describe shortly secret military existence many years new new accelerated nuclear war timetable american bolshevik war planners washington past two months 've reporting details new war plan quickly obtain verify plan calls nuclear war one erupt september year 1982 ! ! fast approaching nuclear war threat caused called falklands crisis erupt going coordinated effort spoil part bolshevik grand strategy coming nuclear war mutual enemies american bolsheviks namely , rockefeller cartel russia 's new rulers behind present crisis trying ruin phase 3 project z war plan revealed last month phase world domination american bolsheviks russia united states destroyed nuclear war one mentioned last month , key plan existence secret weapons various places around world american bolshevik military planners america working bolshevik agents key military positions countries set war done , intend ride nuclear holocaust caused , safe cozy government war bunkers ! warring nations finally lie smoldering exhausted , bolsheviks leave shattered remains host countries rendezvous secret weapons installations bring weapons open confront world remaining fresh , date , powerful military force earth using military power , become undisputed rulers world , plan , plan way world domination soon setting nuclear war one matter months rockefeller cartel russia 's new anti bolshevik rulers working together race time try head bolshevik war plan last month mentioned bolsheviks war preparations started rockefellers long ago three years since rockefellers prime united states government bolsheviks since time united states government house divided , torn internal power struggles rival bolshevik rockefeller factions , united states dominated decades economically politically four rockefeller brothers 1961 brothers launched new long range plan world domination two prong strategy , half visible half secret , first described long ago audio letter 28 plan united states arm teeth secret appearing disarm gradually without repeating details , basic idea grandiose yet simple deliberately appearing weak , rockefeller controlled united states would maneuver nuclear war russia secret weapons , including , would unleashed smash russia take world set grand plan motion 1961 , rockefeller brothers looking ahead nuclear war late 1970s military analysts concluded early war planned would different effects northern southern hemispheres , united states soviet union , located well northern hemisphere full fledged nuclear powers great britain , france , red china , india contrast , strategic targets nuclear war southern hemisphere relatively far words , expected coming nuclear war would essentially northern hemisphere war nuclear holocaust known serious radioactive gradually spread affect even areas initially hit war limits far war clouds spread discovered long ago little mixing air northern southern hemispheres northern half planet , cold air north pole works way towards equator , works way back north warm air mirror image process takes southern half planet northern southern hemisphere air meet equatorial zone , little air changes places military conclusion , friends , coming nuclear war could ruin large areas northern hemisphere generations come calculations right , southern hemisphere could escape virtually unaffected war music ears four rockefeller brothers quick look globe world shows rockefeller cartel dominated latin america ever since world war ii discussed first monthly audio letter , nelson rockefeller cartel grip latin america war accomplished called coordinator defense president franklin roosevelt takes care south american continent natural resources african continent , , rockefeller control already effect wide areas black africa , especially south equator thanks efforts john rockefeller iii , detailed audio letter 36 looking around globe , important remaining land masses standpoint world domination australia new zealand thanks world war ii , wide open rockefellers rockefeller brothers decided establish secret military installations southern hemisphere use coming war means expected become masters surviving southern half planet earth northern hemisphere war , northern hemisphere gradually recovered nuclear holocaust , rockefeller empire would able pick pieces way third generation rockefeller brothers expected family dynasty inherit earth order control southern hemisphere militarily war , means would available project military power onto land mass example , revolts rockefeller domination would require troops blast beam weapons moon critical factor military domination world found navy minimum two secret naval fleets would required one based south atlantic , south pacific since reserve naval fleets kept secret northern hemisphere nuclear war , could built existing new construction facilities built hidden hide entire small task take lot space top , essential ships remain hidden built best way achieve combine naval base one secret installation finally , secret naval installation nuclear attack otherwise existence ever discovered prematurely , secret navy might wiped combined requirements secrecy , space , protection attack formidable one day 1959 , plans still early stages development , answer presented called banking trip sweden , david rockefeller given tour unique hidden naval port port hollowed solid granite cliffs come right water entrance port gigantic hole side cliff sealed enormous steel doors inside big doorway water huge cavity hollowed accommodate ships rockefeller brothers military decided bigger , secret , better protected version swedish hidden port wanted survey candidate sites initiated site survey covered coastal areas throughout southern hemisphere many areas rejected quickly wrong areas rejected close equator still others ruled many people living nearby , making desired level secrecy impossible finally , essential sites chosen secret naval installations totally secure politically last sites secret naval installations selected south pacific , extreme southern new zealand selected audio letter 71 three months ago called attention new zealand 's extreme importance coming war order obtain necessary space , secret new zealand naval installation divided two sites located close together one extreme southwest tip south island mountain range known southern alps comes virtually water 's edge part installation built northwest tip stewart island , tip south island stewart island facility hollowed within rise known mt new zealand location met requirements ever since world war ii government new zealand tied even closer united states great britain location far equator , installations buried deep mountains , protected nuclear attack also deep reached particle beam attacks , new zealand site well situated command entire south pacific south atlantic even perfect site found site , friends , south georgia island located perfectly naval domination entire south atlantic tall , rugged mountains provided perfect location secret installation northwest tip 100 mile long island controlled great britain whose government , like new zealand , willing cooperate south georgia island virtually except whaling station northeast coast whaling station 50 miles away secret new installation built , britain took chances 1965 whaling station closed since time inhabitants south georgia island except dozen alleged antarctic scientists construction secret naval facilities two new zealand , one south georgia island began early 1960 's techniques adapted used previously build large underground facilities , norad installation inside mountain , colorado however techniques adapted radically new ways achieve construction access directly sea instead way , mountain left appearance construction cuts mountain side necessary let ships kept small possible well like swedish hidden naval port arrangement , secret installations sealed sealed , entrance virtually impossible detect unless know exactly unlike large construction projects , piles leftover rock lying around attract attention man made house secret naval installations enormous , rock debris disposed sea secret naval facilities built , ship construction storage fake disarmament united states 1960s contributed greatly task 1961 1968 one man played role elaborate rockefeller scheme secretary defense robert mcnamara 60 's mcnamara public back america 's visible military power included closing dismantling entire told equipment went afterwards went , friends , new secret installations new zealand south georgia island ! secret naval installations used duplication facilities reproduce certain ships submarines designed built united states defense secretary told congress recently , cheaper build two ships time especially true second ship exact duplicate first become even true recent years use computerized manufacturing techniques secret naval fleets built secret installations made duplicates exact duplicates certain ships submarines nuclear powered nuclear subs nuclear cruisers nuclear destroyers yes , nuclear aircraft carriers , three secret twin built u nimitz , u eisenhower , newly launched u carl vincent financed gigantic cost overruns , called , constantly hear defense department three carriers provided full complement aircraft whose manufacture financed way ! ships secret american bolshevik naval fleets duplicates nuclear powered vessels even , secret naval ships possess one key difference last month revealed called stealth program succeeded developing kind electromagnetic invisibility shield technique makes object invisible distance distorting light waves vicinity whole new fleet phantom war planes going crash production use principle , friends , secret american bolshevik navy ships already similar stealth field equipment ! stealth principle actually easier apply ships airplanes room powerful equipment generates field nuclear war one , secret stealth navy american bolsheviks would light years ahead navy left earth would perfect intended role world domination rockefellers set motion long ago , friends , three years ago lost control united states military 's american bolsheviks control , bent war secret naval installations precipitated called falklands crisis topic 2 audio letter \( r \) 73 last month described project z , new bolshevik three phase strategy nuclear war one elite group american bolshevik military planners flushing plan right secret war room washington 's plan united states strike first nuclear blow , followed war russia set holocaust , bolsheviks certain countries plan rise safe comfortable war bunkers finally nuclear war one , plan leave behind ashes united states allies activating phase 3 grand strategy , plan secret weapons , especially secret naval fleets plan conquer rule left world united states know dead gone eyes bolsheviks , outcome constitute victory nuclear war timetable first revealed two months ago still track still shooting nuclear war begin september year 1982 ! time fast running bolsheviks fast toward war , friends , bolsheviks runners race two deadly enemies , equally determined trip bolsheviks one enemy bolsheviks rockefeller cartel enemy new anti bolshevik ruling clique russia two mutual enemies bolsheviks efforts certain ways audio letter 71 three months ago reported limited , new anti bolshevik coalition works rockefeller cartel russians january 26 meeting haig geneva , switzerland , turning point formation coalition reality , responsible called falkland crisis dominating headlines emphasized new relationship rockefeller cartel russia falls far short true alliance major disputes settled , time called truce deal mutual deadly enemy bolsheviks america first priority russians rockefellers slow bolshevik preparations imminent nuclear war , time side rockefeller cartel certain political movements discussed last summer audio letter 67 slow nuclear war timetable also give breathing space additional anti bolshevik actions implemented joint rockefeller russian planners decided mid february military action bolsheviks essential quickly type action hope taking effect fast enough prevent nuclear war end summer exact details project z war plan known either rockefellers russians , general outlines known described last month decided military action devised would undermine phase 3 bolshevik war plan , bolshevik controlled secret naval installations fleets southern hemisphere attacked crippled working together , rockefeller cartel russians able devise attack plan neither could carried alone rockefeller group , built originally controlled bases , provided detailed intelligence best way attack russians enormous military machine provided muscle actually carry attack essential devise scheme would enable secret fleets south atlantic south pacific attacked survival intact either fleet would leave bolshevik war plan still workable military analysts concluded quickly direct assault new zealand facilities question combination , , military force could possibly keep attack secret outside world attack new zealand bases would set war rockefellers russians want prevent situation south atlantic different matter way , greatest asset south georgia island also heel extreme isolation protected secrecy south georgia base also made covert military assault feasible key lay argentina long standing claims falkland islands mentioned topic 1 , rockefeller cartel dominated latin america decades cartel operatives sent argentina work deal government military junta historic dispute falkland islands used provide , military cover , enable south georgia base attacked argentine generals told everything situation means , told enough make clear cooperate , argentine leaders promised handsome rewards guaranteed shooting , falkland islands would remain argentine hands guarantee included promise covert military assistance needed royal navy troubled argentine economy , promised rockefeller cartel help develop immense offshore oil reserves combined promises military glory financial rewards , argentine military junta agreed plan march 19 argentina carried act 1 joint attack plan group argentine scrap metal merchants , things , landed abandoned old whaling station south georgia island supposedly dismantle old buildings cart sell also raised argentine flag work site british , always nervous south georgia island , promptly reacted expected british antarctic survey ship endurance put 22 marines drove scrap merchants tore argentine flag incident provided desired excuse argentine junta bring 150 year old falklands dispute boil time time past , argentina claimed south georgia part falklands administered way britain argument flimsy came handy nothing new hear argentine leaders , hint really late march , argentine military forces started assembling assault falklands nothing new , thought british high command argentina carried threatening maneuvers past many times believed april 2 argentine forces unexpected many past false alarms , time actually invaded seized islands argentine public statements emphasized long standing historical claims falklands good measure , next day small argentine force also seized far south georgia island force small gave appearance initially side show argentina 's point view however , small contingent 22 royal marines overpowered bundled island along group 13 alleged scientists moment payoff joint rockefeller russian attack plan thanks elaborate distraction staged argentine forces , special commando team got onto island undetected based detailed rockefeller information base , team moved location mountain directly secret base special high speed drilling equipment set rockefeller members team russian members concentrated military defense late evening , april 3 , military high command london finally learned really taking place secret south georgia base attack virtually means possible joint rockefeller russian team drilling shaft mountain toward hollowed cavern inside matter time drill would break ceiling giant hidden naval base hole made , next step obvious rockefeller russian team would put weapon kind hole best guess would nerve gas shock waves went highest levels british government evening april 3 hardly described , friends thatcher government , like called reagan administration america , bolshevik controlled 's margaret thatcher always says , , time reagan administration says anything russia governments party secret nuclear war plan complete betrayal people respective countries , evening april 3 suddenly discovered precious war plan deep , deep trouble immediately thatcher government started assembling naval armada sail south atlantic order day drilling south georgia island proceeding around clock best estimates drilling would break roof naval base three weeks , april 24 help reach south georgia , secret installation might doomed forces stationed installation unable defend circumstances mighty naval ships ships bottle dare open bottle sail fight russian armed tactical nuclear weapons open blast proof entrance doors would suicide april 5 , two days south georgia island seized , 40 naval ships began moving british ports day lord sacked foreign minister forced resign , friends , assisted rockefeller attack plan argentine attack preparations day , april 5 , new zealand , home secret naval fleet , broke diplomatic relations argentina two hidden new zealand facilities placed red alert measure , submarines twin base ordered sea several surface ships already sea undergoing sea trials , still left seven \( 7 \) major ships inside hidden twin naval base including one nuclear aircraft carriers mentioned earlier busy day april 5 , argentina 's foreign minister , costa , united nations new york alarmed deployment large part royal navy costa washington seek certain officials got ! next two weeks news filled stories allegedly slow movement british fleet negotiations went , friends , cover story royal navy actually joining moving rapidly possible toward south georgia island task force arrived time save secret base , major battle likely official stories slow movement british armada intended give cushion time battle need , fleet would several days south georgia island , could move arrive near falklands announced schedule way crucial importance south georgia island would hidden big secret preserved initially expected advance elements british fleet would reach vicinity south georgia island within two weeks would soon enough attack joint rockefeller russian commando team stop drilling completed russian cosmospheres submarines made shambles plan key advance elements south georgia attack contingent left ascension island early april 14 , two days announced officially shortly , ran trouble russian cosmospheres attack submarines closed single ship critical planned south georgia island cosmospheres bombarded bridge combat information center ship neutron radiation moments ship without command , communications radar russian sub closed quickly finished key british ship broke apart secondary explosions sank rapidly far known , survivors unexpected shock mid atlantic produced two results , important first , caused slowdown race toward south atlantic british armada task force configuration better suited enroute defense , cost valuable time public announcements london progress fleet reflected slowdown timetable arrival battle stations near falklands started stretching longer longer bought extra time joint commando team south georgia island drilling continued result sinking equally important word flashed south pacific stealth navy prepare possible action obvious russian navy getting involved atlantic , meant royal navy could big trouble dead night , early april 15 , seven stealth ships put sea twin secret bases southern new zealand deployed secret operational headquarters area antipodes islands , 450 miles southeast new zealand electromagnetic shields operating provide protection attack shields make impossible communicate outside world even see , explained last month arrived antipodes , stealth ships hooked equipped shielded communication cables island headquarters antipodes headquarters , turn , constant touch south georgia base way cable around tip south america deployment available ships south pacific stealth fleet exactly joint rockefeller russian planners hoped ships flushed essentially hiding place new zealand ! british ship 's sinking april 14 also followed events april 15 argentine navy started moving port day , alexander haig arrived supposedly diplomat , reality general , dealing generals haig top governmental operative rockefeller cartel , revealed past making sure get cold feet back critical moment four days later , april 19 , haig left washington plane , haig told reporters , time running , friends , secret south georgia base next day , april 20 , drill broke hollowed cavern naval base bolshevik military analysts london expected could completed least following weekend british fleet still range weapon commando team inserted long hole small , compact russian neutron bomb detonated inside confines huge artificial cave , effects devastating intense radiation instantly killed everyone inside base also heat blast effects bomb believed damaged ships inside sufficiently badly disable meanwhile , russian cosmospheres submarines stealth ships near antipodes islands awaiting orders distance , ships invisible eye due protective shields , also protect beam weapon attack sitting ducks tactics russians employed floating overhead , cosmospheres located seven ships using range finding equipment known reported past , method known jammed cosmospheres radioed exact locations ships attack submarines subs armed special non , non nuclear designed explode impact sophisticated would thrown course detonated prematurely protective shield ship simple cruise right invisibility field strike ship explode within 15 minutes attack began , seven bolshevik stealth ships way bottom , went bolshevik commanders mercenary crews collected around world south pacific action took place sunset local time time washington around 2 00 p april 23 evening secretary state haig seen briefly public new british foreign minister , francis wearing artificial pseudo smile diplomats taught always display public haig haig ear ear , wonder joint rockefeller russian military operation brilliant success secret bolshevik south atlantic fleet virtually wiped , bottled inside south georgia island south pacific fleet , totally wiped , badly crippled working together , rockefeller cartel russians secret naval war southern hemisphere topic 3 say words , news reports give impression war erupt south atlantic , real war southern hemisphere already watching beginning bloody aftermath aftermath battle falkland islands promised argentina reward role secret war moment bolsheviks washington pressing public announcement united states side britain soon takes place , military action heat fast around falklands britain choice fight already suffered casualties cannot explained without public battle fighting , bolsheviks britain running risk humiliating tragic defeat royal navy meanwhile , rockefeller concentrating fast building , anti nuclear war campaign sides hearing called nuclear freeze movement , articles , publicity kinds us nuclear war recent months , even popping election ballots dealing nuclear war issue medical doctors banding together warn public would happen nuclear war told popping spontaneously 37 years nuclear age nothing like ever gained much momentum , yet supposed believe millions americans spontaneously gotten ideas time believe , friends , give movements like never , mean never , develop without leadership , organization , money plenty watching rockefeller public relations machine work 've explained past , rockefeller cartel cannot afford let nuclear war take place , lose everything position control instead , deadly enemies rockefeller cartel , bolsheviks , win war rockefeller faction everything power prevent nuclear war present anti nuclear war orientation rockefeller cartel creates certain temporary common interests russia russia 's new rulers know well , spring great moral perspective part rockefeller group 's purely matter practical necessity right rockefellers russians regard united states house divided , exploiting division working careful ways rockefellers first priority rid world deadly bolshevik menace , even suicidal , nuclear war done , know day rockefeller cartel day rockefeller group working toward definite objective new anti nuclear war propaganda objective renewed power power moves closer old dream world government bolsheviks unwittingly provided fertile ground powerful new rockefeller campaign bolshevik control , called reagan administration become 's scaring people rockefeller campaign designed latent fear tool power days smell war air falklands crisis helping make intense rockefeller propaganda machine paving way argument surrender sovereignty way avoid war new super united nations sorts works fill bill teeth ! presently envisioned , new organization based geneva , switzerland working name , though may changed , world council plan bring outgrowth nuclear treaties , true purpose use fear fear war control us last minute summary 's time last minute summary audio letter reported reasons behind called falkland islands crisis crisis erupted secret bolshevik controlled naval installations southern hemisphere attacked joint action rockefeller cartel russians attempt slow nuclear war timetable attacks successful , results remain seen one result , though , royal navy drawn trap britain 's waterloo sea may well hand friends , two factions struggling control united states rockefeller cartel bolsheviks differ style seek control us fear ever rise trickery , must power lord jesus christ , hope scripture tells us , lord given us spirit fear power , love , sound mind must learn wage peace lord declared long ago , blessed peacemakers shall called sons god next month , god willing , dr beter thank , may god bless every one
kaldis romulus rutgers edu \( theodore kaldis \) subject supply joke organization rutgers univ , new brunswick , n j lines 16 lip s1 gov \( loren petrich \) writes following joke many supply take screw light bulb \? none let free market free market places attractive price screwing light bulb , bet bottom dollar light bulb certainly get screwed promptly , views expressed herein theodore kaldis seriously kaldis remus rutgers edu believe major university ! rutgers ! remus rutgers edu ! kaldis would hold views \? \? \?
kaldis romulus rutgers edu \( theodore kaldis \) subject many homosexuals \? organization rutgers univ , new brunswick , n j lines 6 many views expressed herein theodore kaldis seriously kaldis remus rutgers edu believe major university ! rutgers ! remus rutgers edu ! kaldis would hold views \? \? \?
auvm american edu \( martina cartwright \) subject concentrate child molesters \? article auvm 93096 ncsu edu auvm american edu yuma acns colostate edu auvm american edu pdxgate uucp 1993apr5 lmpsbbs organization american university university computing center lines 53 article 1993apr5 lmpsbbs comm mot com , corp mot com \( \) says article pdxgate uucp rigel cs pdx edu \( chris \) writes \) auvm american edu \( martina cartwright \) writes \) \) \) official legal term rape crime forcing female \) submit sexual intercourse \) \) please , supply references aware states \) word female rape statutes sure others surprised \) well know thats works practice \( nice n fair , ! ! \) , \) unaware statutes applying females , \) uniformly throughout u agree mostly chris \( unfortunately , imo \) true fbi figures rape based crime report female rapes however , states \( illinois \) refuse comply sexist definition ! worms crawl worms crawl worms post net account insofar several liberal jurisdictions concerned , essential elements rape gender neutral nonetheless , decided provide number references support original argument black 's law dictionary \( every law student lawyer 's friend \) defines rape unlawful sexual intercourse female without consent unlawful knowledge woman man forcibly model penal code \( statute proposed national conference uniform state laws organization adoption state \) defines rape male sexual intercourse female wife guilty rape \( \) submit force threat imminent death \( mpc 213 1 \( 1 \) \( \) \) indeed following jurisdictions states statutes similar mpc alabama code ala 6 61 \( 1992 \) arkansas ark stat ann 5 14 103 \( 1993 \) district columbia c code 22 2801 \( 1992 \) georgia f g 16 6 1 \( 1992 \) idaho idaho code 18 6101 \( 1992 \) maryland md ann code art 27 462 \( 1992 \) mississippi miss code ann 97 3 71 \( 1993 \) new york \( check case law \) n c l penal 130 35 \( 1993 \) north carolina n c gen stat 14 27 2 \( 1992 \) puerto rico l p r \( 1993 \) ta , martina
clinton hq campaign92 org \( clinton gore '92 \) subject clinton press availability russian press 4 4 93 organization project gnu , free software foundation , 675 mass ave , cambridge , 02139 , usa 1 \( 617 \) 876 3296 lines 220 nntp posting host life ai mit edu white house office press secretary \( vancouver , british columbia \) immediate release april 4 , 1993 press conference president russian press canada place vancouver , british columbia 2 46 p pdt q two questions presidents , could probably answer boris , \( laughter \) president 'll give answer , 'll give yeltsin 's answer \( laughter \) q first meeting presidents , money 's promised government money , naturally 's going distributed government 've indicated three quarters going going businesses question russian businesses going consulted , ever \? priorities , several association russian businessmen existing already , invited participate setting priorities investment \? first second , know polls , public polls america show americans enthusiastic giving aid like newsweek polls say 75 percent n't approve , new york times published 52 percent support prevents civil war 42 percent democratic reform 29 percent personally supports yeltsin going sort handle problem americans enthusiastic \? thank q question , i'm sorry going translation everything russian \? , answers answers okay president answer first question , depends kind aid 're discussing example , funds set financing new businesses obviously go businesses apply seem good risks make application privatization fund used support privatization existing public enterprises general funds democracy corps things people russia influence distribution regard second question , let say would think would people countries would feel warmly toward simply american government giving money russian government 's opposition russia country , throughout whole history opposition foreign aid kinds , nothing russia look whole history america , kind aid program always unpopular tried tell american people , aid program , investment program investment future spent 4 trillion trillion armaments soldiers investments cold war , democratic government russia , newly independent states , remainder working democracy struggling get economies going , seems much interest make possible whatever democracy survive , economy russia grow potential trade investment , us continue effort reduce nuclear weapons elements hostility sides , side russian side n't see aid program investment united states much interest united states things announced today , second stage program , hope put together next week , view things good country taxpayers workers country russia great nation needs partnership , common endeavor people share goals would great mistake anyone view sort charity aid issue 's , 's investment america 's wonderful investment like investments , risk 's far less risk far greater potential return 4 trillion spent looking across barrier cold war q mr president , first thank much , indeed , coming talking us memory living correspondents , first time american president russian press corps , 's kind measured breakthrough two questions one , introductory remarks press conference , mentioned brief discussed start ii start issues could tell us reach agreement president yeltsin might done order ukraine join start npt regime \? second question , confident united states congress would eager support lifting jackson vanik restrictions inherited cold war \? president clinton first , discussed issue ukraine regard start npt , generally , regard need proceed independent states non nuclear also united states develop strong relationships know one thing could would increase , think , willingness ukraine support direction successfully conclude negotiations highly enriched uranium , would provide important economic opportunity russia , also ukraine , would show reaching part agreed basically people signed lisbon protocol got honor , agreed continue press , , spent good deal time trying reassure ukraine 's leaders , specifically president foreign minister , want strong ties ukraine , united states much wants good relationship ukraine , , order need together strengthen economy ukraine united states fully supportive , commitment ratify start join npt regime critical second question \? president regard jackson vanik cocom , would make two points first , agreed republican democratic leaders congress , soon return , list legislative restrictions , regulatory nature , imposed relations united states russia , cold war see whether 're many could agree away right , least among leadership congress regard jackson vanik , think openness change law congress convinced , fact , , people wish allowed fact one would law designed affect , think desire keep law much less regard cocom , guess , 's nothing guess , leadership congress indeed advisers , might prefer see sort phased movement cocom regime think would willing begin fairly near future q mr clinton , read speech annapolis , got impression completely different personal stress personal , political approach towards russia , compared approach mr bush could formulate words , difference personality approach difference approach russia approach mr bush \? made cite last part speech \? president let say , first , wish compare president bush anyone else ca n't say heart russia say since boy , personally fascinated history , music culture , literature russia thrilled russian music since serious student music 30 years read major russian many followed tried know much could history went soviet union soviet union may know big issue last presidential campaign spent first week 1970 alone moscow return three days mr yeltsin elected president time away , following events closely hoping day could genuine partners always personal feeling russia remember , example lot know like music much one moving experiences musician leonard bernstein took new york moscow played 's fifth russians played last movement rapidly anyone ever played technically difficult something followed closely occurred things always big impact life always hoped someday , ever chance , could play role seeing two countries become closer partners \( applause \) press thank 06 p pdt
clinton hq campaign92 org \( clinton gore '92 \) subject clinton public schedule president 4 5 93 organization project gnu , free software foundation , 675 mass ave , cambridge , 02139 , usa 1 \( 617 \) 876 3296 lines 34 nntp posting host life ai mit edu white house office press secretary immediate release april 5 , 1993 public schedule president tuesday , april 6 , 1993 11 15 est president clinton delivers remarks egyptian president , east room , white house open press future schedule president april 16 , 1993 president clinton meets japanese prime minister miyazawa , white house april 26 , 1993 president clinton meets italian president , white house
garrett ingres com subject losers \( stop putting white het males \) summary 02 news software vax vms vnews 1 4 b1 keywords racism , sexism , organization ask computer systems , ingres product division lines 107 article 1939 tec army mil , riggs descartes etl army mil \( bill riggs \) writes article 1993apr2 galileo cc rochester edu as010b uhura cc rochester edu \( tree schnopia \) writes 1993apr2 jato jpl nasa gov michael neuron6 jpl nasa gov \( michael \) writes n't know white male know white males , class , done 've invented light bulb , automobile , airplane , printing movable type , photography , computers , electric guitar , rocket powered space flight , computer , electricity , telephone , tv , motion pictures , \( sp \) , telescopes , nylon , x ray machine two glaring errors first , white males n't anything class individual white males invented things , means nothing white males whole second , neglected mention charles manson , hitler , mccarthy , jack ripper , ted bundy , whole slew individuals done horrible , evil things white males take credit fellow white , must also take blame claim deserve neither credit blame things white males need wake realize 're unfair , yes everyone else needs wake realize unfair right back disgusting , racist sexist ca n't learn treat everyone fairly , without generalizing \? stupidity gene makes difficult \? 'd like buy world clue word missing whole discourse b word , h word , even n w words l word loser ! ! 's right boil crap argument , winning losing , nothing else let explain meantime , guilt winning , maybe fear one n't deserve one 's bounty success kinder gentler type politician days , bill clinton , affirmative action , lots discourse people n't get us winning business , kind talk mildly irritating , still suggestion losing , anyway \? answer plain horn rims face guy michael douglas , posing loser known controversial casting short white shirt sure look natural mike n't gordon never look \( though woody always dressed way \) really expect take easy enjoy kind wardrobe , without putting fuss \? starting lose sight , bashing game bashing poor african american slug clint eastwood used blow away time arch wasp \( male gender \) george c scott , americans traditionally love win love winner , tolerate loser since talking theory opinion , 'll put 02 first , personally , love dogs unlike bandwagon jumpers , abandon teams start winning people cheer winners winners insecure people afraid associated something negative political implications simple , many socialists democrats , consider society finite pie equitable way , worry winner loser tell whose side could black women today , asian homosexuals tommorrow , yes indeed , white men yet determined day balance pie finally swung \( 39 \) minority one point , agree reason people bash wasp 's top long time whoever top going oppress whoever stay top hannibal pushed rome victory might bashing blacks oppressing us peacefull white people centuries seriously doubt blacks conquered world would treated colonies better worse whites white race unspeakable things races world conquering race would done \( ie khan \) real question , carry blame present generation n't participate crimes \? would good \? done bosnia good \? fighting wars stopped hundreds , even thousands , years ago opinion , , let 's change n't blame ancestors would n't settle anything anyway either way go , way winner longer way popular least graduate high school \( 'll still popular high school \) beats nerd , would imagine michael douglas would agree , long run , way go 's dead wrong n't join side winning makes winning , high school high school , still best way popular , n't make right best causes history loosing causes \( couple exceptions \) winning makes difference people , good opinions people care appear \( ie winner \) ca n't beat , fight every inch way bill r moment bottom fell authur 's mind garrett johnson eyes turned inside feet began leak garrett ingres com top head room folded flat around , spun around , shifted existence left sliding naval douglas adams
clinton hq campaign92 org \( clinton gore '92 \) subject clinton press briefing george stephanopoulos 4 5 93 organization project gnu , free software foundation , 675 mass ave , cambridge , 02139 , usa 1 \( 617 \) 876 3296 lines 581 nntp posting host life ai mit edu white house office press secretary immediate release april 5 , 1993 press briefing george briefing room 10 10 edt mr stephanopoulos know , president soon way , camden yards 'll throwing first pitch q 's marc , maryland area transit , 's mr stephanopoulos oh , 's \? well , 's going union station , 're right excuse q george , exactly prepared break \? \? \? senate \? mr stephanopoulos well , know , discussions senator mitchell senator dole morning , think president going continue make point believes investment package , jobs package needs passed quickly possible need investment summer jobs , immunization , highway construction , important programs put people back work right away summer president continues believe program passed q compromise , 's question \? mr stephanopoulos well , know , discussions going morning senate senator mitchell senator dole , let 's see come president believes jobs program go forward q george , would president willing accept 8 billion one year , apparently appears compromise offered mr stephanopoulos well , n't know offered either side senate discussions going right , let 's see happens today q would go far matter republicans offered far , would go far , 8 billion per year \? mr stephanopoulos president believes program passed time clearly , 're going willing listen senators might might able come , i'm going get figures right let 's see happens q 's reasonable assume , n't , happened far compromise going necessary order get vote \? mr stephanopoulos well , republicans seem intrested stopping progress president 's jobs bill , something create mr stephanopoulos well , republicans seem interested stopping progress president 's jobs bill something create real action , real jobs summer american people think 's question 's frustration legislative activity last days q , 'll need compromise get package \? mr stephanopoulos 'll see happens conversations senator mitchell senator dole morning q prepared compromise mr stephanopoulos president 's prepared listen senator mitchell say morning meeting senator dole q feel defeated mr stephanopoulos least fact , 's successful far beginning term q \? mr stephanopoulos passed budget record time , six weeks , 's budget reduces deficit 500 billion five years 's budget provides important investments future right 've also strong passage jobs program house simply minority republicans senate choose perpetuate gridlock hold action president 's jobs program sign overall q ca n't beat , \? q fact \? mr stephanopoulos well , republicans stop action 's question q going \? q george , know alleged notes taken boris yeltsin one meetings appears president told boris yeltsin trust japanese say yes mean \? mr stephanopoulos think 's complete misreading happened meeting context conversation president clinton actually reassuring president yeltsin time conversations prime minister miyazawa islands prime minister 's belief japan would play constructive role g 7 process mean casual comment japanese courtesy etiquette overall context conversation reassuring president yeltsin believed japanese serious commitment g 7 process q saying president said japanese say yes mean \? mr stephanopoulos 's n't know exact words much longer discussion say something along lines believes issue prime minister miyazawa intends really go forward g 7 process q attempts explain japanese apparently japanese press picked appears mr stephanopoulos 've seen reports japanese press actually put situation context talk japanese understanding japanese points view n't think 's going problem believe may diplomatic context clear things i'm positive q george , specific comment made specific island situation general observation japanese etiquette \? mr stephanopoulos discussion q specific comment i'm asking alleged translated russian notes , japanese say yes mean mr stephanopoulos well , combination mean n't think 's whole sentence think specific comment broad , general observation followed specific finish sentence said case believes prime minister miyazawa means keep commitment q saying first \? mr stephanopoulos think casual observation q say diplomatic contacts made clear president sent message \? mr stephanopoulos , n't think president spoke believe secretary christopher made calls i'm sure exactly many q well , obviously bigger deal 're making christopher make calls mr stephanopoulos , got reports vancouver secretary wanted make sure understood make sure absolutely mr stephanopoulos reports vancouver , secretary wanted make sure understood , make sure absolutely misunderstanding , n't believe q position japanese \? may say one thing , mean another \? mr stephanopoulos position japanese president stated president yeltsin throughout two days said good conversation prime minister prior summit reiterated u position , long standing support japanese position islands , also reiterated prime minister 's commitment move forward g 7 process play constructive role think president yeltsin glad hear q listening secretary christopher iraq last days , i'm little confused u policy \? want see saddam hussein overturned \? mr stephanopoulos 's policy secretary christopher reiterated , u officials reiterated expect full complete unequivocal compliance u n resolutions right compliance q throwing iraq complies , saddam ca n't stay office \? mr stephanopoulos right think 's judgment possible saddam hussein comply resolutions stay power important point expect compliance iraq u n resolutions , continue demand q concerned iran become dominant power area mr stephanopoulos secretary christopher also spoken iran last several days , says also expect full iranian compliance international norms , stopping support terrorism q 's glib statement wo n't stay power complies u n resolutions logic base \? mr stephanopoulos right saddam hussein complying u n resolutions respecting rights people , required u n resolution fully complying resolutions regarding inspections fully complying resolutions regarding armaments q well , think comply would power \? mr stephanopoulos well , right power rests repression people stopped would make difficult stay power q george , back stimulus package , president accuse republicans playing pure politics perpetuating gridlock \? evidence n't genuine difference 's good faith \? mr stephanopoulos well , fact several times past republicans , many ones leading fight filibuster , supported funding seek stop , especially , highway funding q george , regards , moderate republicans said white house open plan put together , one , sort , meeting white house senate republicans , administration look back thinks perhaps could done better job working mr stephanopoulos well , i'm sure 's true one meeting mean , president met republican leadership least two occasions introduction package met entire senate republican caucus also lunch , went continually contact many republicans find interest president 's package interested say , well believe program important , 're going continue fight q nothing , democrats alone strategy , maybe ability get \? mr stephanopoulos well , mean , think question senate rules determined minority frustrate activity mean , question need 40 plus one keep going 40 plus one keep going stop action , 's republicans q going rethink way attempt get things passed go process rest summer \? q work republicans try woo republicans camp \? mr stephanopoulos think 're going continue look support republicans whenever get president 's \? q one going differently one one really stiff republicans beginning made clear democratic majority would get could get really n't need republican votes \? going take different tack go particular votes \? go mr stephanopoulos ca n't see future understand every possible turn legislative road clearly president 's going continue reach q n't way handled n't plan changes approach dealing republicans congress based experience \? mr stephanopoulos obviously president would like package passed quickly possible 's going continue press continue reach republicans , 's question 'll continue reason try find appropriate avenues cooperation case republicans chosen unify around filibuster , around plan frustrate action plan move forward q 're denied legislative means putting proposals forward mr stephanopoulos think 're q ideas mr stephanopoulos think amendments defeated n't know 're denied q present mr stephanopoulos 's exactly true mean get votes q passed though parliamentary rules 're playing mr stephanopoulos unless get majority support way around , , 's exactly true q george , one iraq administration backing iraqi opposition \? grooming new leadership \? q backing iraqi leadership \? mr stephanopoulos oh , , 're pressing iraqi compliance n't know get business grooming leadership believe contacts , levels , iraqi opposition groups n't know anything recently q jesse jackson , , course , president 's best friend , , however , told kind town meeting , kind involvement president , pre empted ball game los angeles consider something like , kind intervention \? mr stephanopoulos well , know , president appointed commerce secretary ron brown , 10 days ago , special envoy california , cabinet activities around california economic situation , including situation los angeles believe also visits los angeles education visits education secretary , mr riley believe transportation secretary pena secretary also going may visits cabinet officials next several days weeks would n't rule possibility visit president clinton california obviously , following situation closely , concerned making sure make right long term policy decisions help create kind economic opportunities help prevent disturbances 're going continue watch q george , follow , reverend jackson also supposed outside ball park today , baltimore , group supporters protesting lack minorities baseball management president position \? mr stephanopoulos president received correspondence reverend jackson know reverend jackson also spoken white house chief staff , mack mclarty clearly raises serious questions progress baseball last several years , still enough president intends continue go ball game q going say anything today , see reverend jackson 's \? mr stephanopoulos n't know going see , said , president believes reverend jackson raised serious questions , 's something , said , even though progress , 's clearly enough q reverend jackson ask go ball game \? mr stephanopoulos i'm sure believe characterization reverend jackson talking informational n't know asked go ball game , sent long , detailed , formal letter outlining concerns situation major league baseball president read q george , orioles playing rangers , managing partner rangers george w bush going , going meet president \? mr stephanopoulos n't know q mubarak schedule \? mr stephanopoulos know president mubarak coming tomorrow morning working meeting , lunch , believe dinner tonight vice president gore q joint statements tomorrow mr stephanopoulos believe , yes end , yes q evidence , george , egyptians warn u potential terrorist bombing terrorist activities \? mr stephanopoulos reported new york times , mean , think president mubarak say general conversations egyptians , long period time general intelligence sharing , mean president mubarak careful point specific information visit passed forward president continue investigate situation , also belief cannot tolerate terrorism kind q george , make specific egyptians , apparently , issue specific warnings individual , forgive individual , forgive name escapes moment , said egyptians less attempts get kind action mr stephanopoulos , n't know would agree characterization mubarak interview say gave general warnings possibility network united states upon took appropriate action specific information specific operation q , white house n't feel law enforcement agencies whether cia fbi would received kind information lax duty pursuing kind mr stephanopoulos , q 's next serbia \? got passing mention news conference yesterday mr stephanopoulos n't get ask question q yes , exactly agreement concerted action two countries \? even n't , u next \? mr stephanopoulos think u clearly going move forward u n today continuing discussions allies sanctions resolution 'll continue look ways press serbians come negotiating table sign agreement q george , think sanctions still option \? mean serbians make clear least leadership surviving fine feel like wait even administration officials day said 's evidence 're going effect time soon bosnian serbs said peace plan mean something different \? mr stephanopoulos well , mean something different 're moving forward sanctions u n discussions continue 're going continue try tighten noose serbia , think every opportunity effect time q looking lifting arms embargo \? mr stephanopoulos president said something consideration q george , hugh 's condition , 's \? mr stephanopoulos far know nothing 's changed q george , week mr mubarak \? mr stephanopoulos 's little unclear think 'll able get either tonight tomorrow morning mubarak visit q going somewhere easter \? mr stephanopoulos know q tell us additional aid russia president plans ask congress \? mr stephanopoulos 's going consulting congress g 7 partners next couple weeks know spoke last evening congressman delegation congressional delegation meets russians week consultations continue next several weeks q expect package magnitude one announced sunday \? mr stephanopoulos i'm going discuss magnitude q list cold war restrictions , stand mr stephanopoulos president said yesterday , 's going looking list congress week reviewing believes 's going try get week 's going review list , 're going take hard look q 're making \? mean 's white house involvement , congress compiling list \? mr stephanopoulos think 's going talk congressional leaders compiling list i'm certain 'll able get researchers working well q george , n't lifting arms embargo probability possibility \? mr stephanopoulos 's something 's discussion q secretary christopher said 's matter time months happens mr stephanopoulos , say 's something president reviewing right 're working allies u n sanctions resolution , 'll continue review matters q george , tell us anything schedule week \? travel \? mr stephanopoulos asked n't anything beyond tomorrow 's visit mubarak right q consultations , george , jewish american organizations concerning jackson \? mr stephanopoulos know national conference soviet jewry list , believe , mr stephanopoulos know , national conference soviet jewry list , believe , 200 'll certainly take look continue appropriate discussions thanks
clinton hq campaign92 org \( clinton gore '92 \) subject clinton president 's remarks trip baltimore 4 5 93 organization project gnu , free software foundation , 675 mass ave , cambridge , 02139 , usa 1 \( 617 \) 876 3296 lines 74 nntp posting host life ai mit edu white house office press secretary immediate release april 5 , 1993 remarks president en route camden yards orioles opening day game marc train en route camden yards 11 45 edt q mr president , think jesse jackson 's protest today \? president think 's informational protest think 's fine owners put statement days ago , say first step , know , efforts increase minority ownership minority increases management think i'm encouraged baylor 's appointment colorado think 's time make move front , think 's legitimate issue , think 's like said , 's informational picket attempt get people go game , think 's good q think 're moving fast enough \? president well , think good first step think 'll see movement think 's issue deserves attention , 're obviously going give think reverend jackson highlight issue think 's fine q mr president , senate economic stimulus plan \? think 'll able break get \? president n't know , 're working mean , 's classic article paper today , one papers saw , pretty well summed said , know , 's political power play senate majority rule 's like country 's like 's like house minority chooses , stop majority rule 's 're lot republican senators told people might vote stimulus program 's enormous partisan political pressure , course , means time new jobs created , even though seems economic recovery , means political purposes 're willing deny jobs places like baltimore dallas houston pittsburgh philadelphia portland seattle 's sad mean , block grant program designed create jobs hurry based local priorities , 's one republicans always democrat champions program people like level , governors senators think 's real sad chosen exert minority muscle way keep americans work think 's mistake press thank 50 edt
cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) subject still waiting evidence , mr cramer organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 46 article netcom com , mortal netcom com \( sam lowry \) writes article optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes article rational com , excalibur rational com \( kim \) writes article optilink com , cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes gay men constitute least 20 child whether gay molesters unusually common , unusually high numbers victims , sort misses point , n't \? means whichever case , homosexual men remarkably hazardous children clayton says incorrect recent survey data find shows 26 molestation exclusively homosexuals , 4 bisexual \( victims male female \) , remainder exclusively heterosexual saying 74 child committed heterosexuals cannot see correlation cite bisexuals heterosexuals \? since \? concludes homosexual , molest children homosexual propensity molesting children n't said homosexual child molester , simply likely 26 homosexuals , concerned creating relation two \? evidence 95 committed homosexuals might find relationship ok , make \? one shown nambla gay parades also , reason people molest \? human sexuality psych class taken overwhelming voice says people commit acts power trips feel control nothing sexual orientation mean , 's power trip , nothing sexual orientation \? mortal netcom com clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent ,
elliott optilink com \( paul elliott \) subject subject summary quote marks , roy \? organization dsc optilink access products lines 33 article panix com roy panix com \( roy radow \) writes anyone degree sensitivity awareness concerned horrendous amount child abuse exists country critical factor whether sexual activity forced child forced often damage , hand , consensual relationships often found positive experiences concerned roy radow roy panix com rutgers ! cmcl2 ! panix ! roy north american man boy love association packet containing sample quote marks , roy \? see might appropriate legitimate concern words distorted context , appropriated style , , reading comments , one might excused assumed claiming child abuse , forced sexual activity , damage caused non existant greatly positive experiences , indeed ! paul elliott \( member good standing optilink mafia \) paul elliott dsc optilink petaluma , ca usa uunet , pyramid , ! optilink ! elliott elliott optilink com used think , i'm sure
cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) subject roe v wade distribution na organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 42 article watson ibm com , margoli watson ibm com \( larry margolis \) writes 1993apr3 ncsu edu dsh eceyv ncsu edu \( doug holtsinger \) writes abortions destructive fetus must permitted , even birth , promote supreme court calls yes , doug , know roe v wade prevents states prohibiting abortions necessary preserve life health woman stupid people \( \) confuse discussion mental health related jane doe , mental institution , attempt claim argument could applied woman decided wanted abortion bad hair day well know , facts 100 third abortions performed country annually , done serious health reasons larry margolis , margoli \( bitnet \) , margoli watson ibm com \( internet \) hmmm human period something like 39 weeks means third abortions done 26 weeks consulting 1989 world almanac , see 1 abortions 1983 done 21 weeks 's abortions 1983 21 weeks unless number abortions performed dropped dramatically , lot abortions done 21 26 weeks , think wrong way , roe v wade allowed states adopt , broad prohibitions third abortions , states , california , declined reported finally stopped third elective abortions bay area n't law , hospital ran nurses , doctors , willing surprisingly , bay area chapter terribly upset remain pro choice , pro choicers compare abortion clinic religious ritual church , start wondering bit pro life criticism abortion modern human sacrifice n't grain truth clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent ,
walsh optilink com \( mark walsh \) subject age consent child molestation organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 20 article queernet org , queernet org \( roger b \) article optilink com walsh optilink com \( mark walsh \) writes nambla 's presence sf gay pride parade says quite bit says either parade organizers want show support nambla , fundamental misunderstanding rights responsibilities would really , really like believe latter , would need help dozens examples latter nambla especially glaring one , hardly one perhaps , though exclusion gay sf gay pride parade would make think clue regard dozens examples \? n't know mark walsh \( walsh optilink \) uucp uunet ! optilink ! walsh amateur radio km6xu wx3k aol bigcookie aol com uscf l10861 , worry \? william gaines , 1922 1992 i'm gonna crush ! andre giant , 1946 1993
walsh optilink com \( mark walsh \) subject age consent child molestation organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 40 article cpp panix com roy panix com \( roy radow \) writes optilink com walsh optilink com \( mark walsh \) writes noted nambla present 600 gay parades nation view isolated event , troubled hope i'm going hate getting involved discussion , felt obliged keep things factually accurate last year nambla marched pride parades boston , new york san francisco first time participated parades last \( marched nambla contingent new york , every year , decade \) thank correcting error post net information came newspaper article fuzzy mind wonder similar nambla 's presence parades new york boston liberation molestation , mark north american micro biological laboratories association packet containing sample bulletin , publications list membership information send 1 00 postage note sometimes things trying desire flame living somebody beliefs associations , especially phil , take away ! \) mark walsh \( walsh optilink \) uucp uunet ! optilink ! walsh amateur radio km6xu wx3k aol bigcookie aol com uscf l10861 , worry \? william gaines , 1922 1992 i'm gonna crush ! andre giant , 1946 1993
margoli watson ibm com \( larry margolis \) subject thought commercial advertising allowed distribution na news software ibm os 2 pm rn \( nr 2 \) v0 vishnepolsky r rogers lines 35 reply margoli watson ibm com \( larry margolis \) disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host watson ibm com organization village voder nsc com matt galaxy nsc com \( matt freivald x8043 \) writes article talk politics misc , margoli watson ibm com \( larry margolis \) writes would suggest legal precedent defines human \( e , person whose rights protected constitution law \) someone functioning brain , want use legal precedent , take look model penal code , many states base criminal code apologies unclear trying start statutory debate , since many \( cases conflicting \) statutes books merely suggesting paradigm might make sense pro imho pointing legal precedent defines human referring born , suggestion incorrect point unborn child human , parents clearly responsibilities toward parents toward children parent forced supply bodily resources toward children , even necessary save child 's life confusion action inaction parent run front bus save child 's life either , parent required feed children confusion bodily resources constitutes blood transfusions organ donations involve bodily resources examples larry margolis , margoli \( bitnet \) , margoli watson ibm com \( internet \)
starowl bolero rahul net \( michael adams \) subject many heterosexuals \? nntp posting host bolero reply starowl a2i rahul net x header ignore ignore ignore ignore line organization service actuarial consulting lines 11 kaldis romulus rutgers edu \( theodore kaldis \) writes many agreed need folks admit 're bi michael adams \( starowl a2i rahul net \) champaign , il southeast al thrush believes two party system masters slaves napoleon solo \( man u n c l e \)
rcollins encore com \( roger collins \) subject top ten reasons aid russians organization encore computer corporation nntp posting host sysgem1 encore com lines 116 julie eddie jpl nasa gov \( julie kangas \) writes article encore com rcollins ns encore com \( roger collins \) writes julie eddie jpl nasa gov \( julie kangas \) writes n't look want send aid russia many conservatives well yes , nixon vocal giving money russia makes proud libertarian appears conservatives liberals prefer cold war win , nurse enemy back health another go around enemy \? sounds like 's viewpoint stereotypical conservative commies , always ' ok , said former enemy sarcastic want suggest listen carefully stuff yeltsin people saying compare anti west slogans coming opponents russian congress sure know want back could back without forcing others back point gun \? considered non policy \? market reform happen , russia certainly get private capital private risk help economy even incentive reason n't reform , government probably consider enemies anyway rather spend money hurt rather help 's ideological point want win russia type government type rulers rule without limit everyone 's finances \? 's like subsidizing wealthy countries \( japan , germany , etc \) free defense , trade warring economic competition 's like subsidizing tobacco farmers paying bureaucrats people smoke better let degenerate civil war \? remember nuclear weapons russia cannot imagine would used civil war take , even prevent civil war , feel must take back large parts land countries \( like ukraine \) also cannot imagine ukraine giving land without fight , possibly nuclear affect us \? well , planet vast tracks europe blown away think 'd feel something massive breakup country spans 1 6th planet bound affects \( course , also humanitarian argument democracies help democracies \( struggling democracies \) \) 1 6 billion gift important well , could n't raised \? people already give 100 billion year charity ask , law could pass prevent government stupid , frivilous things money \? think , constitution supposed could someone please tell legitimate constitutional power federal government using takes money paycheck gives needy countries \? seriously seriously everyone different opinions stupid two causes aid russia strong space program someone else champion welfare education studies drunken goldfish republic true democracy instead gridlock massive scale , gridlock congressional scale seems instead gridlock scale , aid russia , expensive space programs , national charity n't help poor , probably , studies drunken goldfish think limited government key democratic btw , decide \? ' like want impose others sort thing thought libertarians opinion , libertarians big free speech actually , politics pretty libertarian except one issue impossible join party seems libertarians want withdraw rest world let sink swim pretty libertarian except one issue libertarian consider compromise much money would fellow russia give russia oppose n't using government machine steal money group causes n't support \? could 100 years ago people saying hundreds years like beginnings global economy global decision making reason depend free market efficiently process information , depend rulers decisions complex issues julie disclaimer opinions belong cat one else roger collins sometimes said man cannot trusted government , , trusted government others \? found angels forms kings govern \? let history answer question thomas jefferson , first inaugural address
subject concentrate child molesters \? quirke kosmos wcc govt nz distribution world organization city council , public access nntp posting host kosmos wcc govt nz lines 18 cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes mean , large part population supports discrimination homosexuals , injured large part population supports discrimination , law get passed \? addition anti discrimination laws includes homo bisexuality \? one would assume would politicians listening people coming rational arguments rather variations bigotry logic sometimes btw , glad see 've admitted sexual attraction children seperate sexual orientation n't think much honesty tony quirke , wellington , new zealand quirke kosmos wcc govt nz usenet like herd performing elephants diarrhea massive , difficult redirect , awe inspiring , entertaining , source mind boggling amounts excrement least expect gene spafford , 1992
popec unkaphaed jpunix com \( william c \) subject top ten comments overheard secret service lounge organization 's uucp thingy , houston , tx lines 28 croaker highlite uucp \( francis ney \) writes besides , n't want clinton , would make h martyr la jfk 's much better deal end term office disgrace , watching liberal democrat friends staff run nation toilet assuming , course , riots n't 'd go far ways run things bad reagan bush n't riots bush got dumped spotty behind 'll see 4 years pope charles slack time ! \? popec unkaphaed jpunix com \( william c \) 's uucp thingy , houston , tx , \( 713 \) 481 1200 2400 9600 14400 v 32bis v 42bis
subject concentrate child molesters \? quirke kosmos wcc govt nz organization city council , public access nntp posting host kosmos wcc govt nz lines 19 cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes liberal gov wilder vetoed shows liberals n't give damn best person job , 's power play women interested clothes shopping whites imperialist colonial fascists blacks lazy uneducated scum men rapists homosexuals support child molesting slogans , dear cramer , adequate substitute thought tony quirke , wellington , new zealand quirke kosmos wcc govt nz usenet like herd performing elephants diarrhea massive , difficult redirect , awe inspiring , entertaining , source mind boggling amounts excrement least expect gene spafford , 1992
teal csn org \( bruce hayden \) subject hate crimes laws nntp posting host teal csn org organization colorado supernet , inc lines 59 thf2 kimbark uchicago edu \( ted frank \) writes article 1993apr5 22304 news acns nwu edu dmeier casbah acns nwu edu \( douglas meier \) writes article 1993apr4 isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) writes article 1993apr3 news acns nwu edu dmeier casbah acns nwu edu \( douglas meier \) writes someone beats homosexual , get charged assault battery must add gay bashing list \? n't sort double jeopardy \? fascist \? \( \) deter epidemic gay bashing deterred assault laws ought make beating homosexual illegal beating straight \? 's advocating \? hate crimes laws aimed motivations acts like premeditated homicide treated stricter heat passion homicide still get trouble example often crimes violence hate crimes \? question hating \? another gang member , better person hate color \? also , realistic declare crimes hate worse crimes gross negligence \? \( like random drive shootings ca n't hate crimes shooter n't know going hit shoots crowd \) \( \) , double jeopardy single act may lead multiple charges multiple crimes think meant say , current mutation us constitution current police state , someone may charged multiple times one act victim question right shade single act never merit charge set bomb world trade center , charged one murder , five deaths extensive property damage \? , bomb single act first , heard today good chance u instead new york going bombers means capital punishment secondly , double help keep government going first one murder , next , etc sovereign essentially one chance single fact pattern \( world trade center bombing \) bombers probability tried deaths , well property damages , well conspiracy , course , discovered rodney king case , two , neither try twice crime bruce e hayden \( 303 \) 758 csn org
tzs stein2 u washington edu \( tim smith \) subject tieing abortion health reform clinton nuts \? organization university washington school law , class '95 lines 20 nntp posting host stein2 u washington edu article zola esd sgi com cj sgi com writes vengeance 's 's deterrent serves seems deter executed future criminal activity yeah yeah yeah sure would nice n't apply death penalty disproportionately minorities 'll revisit opinion death penalty whites blacks e , hell freezes n't compare rates blacks whites commit crimes \? blacks commit crimes disproportionately , perfectly fair penal system , blacks would disproportionately represented \( note black vs white crime rates racial thing 's probably economic thing poor people likely commit crimes , blacks likely poor way reduce proportion minorities prison increase wealth minorities \) tim smith
b645zaw utarlg uta edu \( stephen tice \) subject us government sanctions sacrilege news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host utarlg uta edu organization university texas arlington lines 82 william december starr writes typical lawyer fashion , usual \( ignoring every principle aclu \) good see still surely 've around ring enough , know ca n't spin let 's see 's anything left worth responding heart ad infinitum either koresh rest state texas totally \) e effort heard folks live around airports \? erect inverted cross , star david broken , front davidians provoke boom islamic prayers worse temple would destroy \? books would burn \? kill clergy \? mock spirit god innocent \? \? sure would \? seems right character creature state btw , still happy presidents \? government respect 's faith , respect lives well innocent children caught hell 've created anyone respect rule law \? rule law respect anyone 's religious faith \? see part children following first line connection , cult faith rules matter criminals , 've done \( looks like criminals sides matter \) conviction worth abuse 're causing abuse \? please specific sure concern well children willing ignore children , heap abuse , insult , sacrilege children inside davidian house god rebuke best learn directly lord corruption 're committing god 's good time way , lord judge truth told would send straight hell god would right sending right along oh , fuck god rode , stephen show legitimacy god 's claim sovereignty man , please otherwise stop ranting raving already william december starr wdstarr athena mit edu interesting would respond emotionally defense government maybe beating heart record though , biggest goverment earth claims sovereignty man best tell god allows anyone go hell wants logically determines allowing sending mean thing \( mere human concepts course \) come bother try flimsy facade logic waco proves 's needed demonstration government walk 's rules name justice made problem noted announced record giving govern ment 's due , getting back worthwhile non government concerns j stephen
clinton hq campaign92 org \( clinton gore '92 \) subject clinton background briefing vancouver 4 4 93 organization project gnu , free software foundation , 675 mass ave , cambridge , 02139 , usa 1 \( 617 \) 876 3296 lines 993 nntp posting host life ai mit edu white house office press secretary \( vancouver , british columbia \) background briefing senior administration officials april 4 , 1993 canada place vancouver , british columbia 9 40 pst folks , 're start background briefing aid package senior administration official good morning president president clinton president yeltsin agreed yesterday series american initiatives support economic political reform russia , 's valued 1 6 billion taking questions running basic outlines package , want make points first , maximum clinton administration available funds support russian reform funds allocated appropriated congress need administration go back congress fund programs fiscal year '93 funds currently available , effect , programs begin tomorrow second point package designed support russian reformers initiatives package directed reformers benefit , worked prior consultation russian government third , president determined deliver commitments year package designed maximize ability support reform designing wanted avoid making commitments could meet , feel confident meet commitments front fourth , 'd like note special importance trade investment think 's fair say russia 's capital technology needs throughout next decade extend well hundreds billions dollars collection governments meet needs private sector president president yeltsin agreed make trade investment major priority relationship also agreed would new joint commission energy space formed , headed u side vice president gore russian side prime minister goal effort break barriers trade investment sides promote vastly expanded relationship would helpful 'd prepared run first page , summary u assistance , give general background programs 'll quickly 'll glad take questions first group initiatives humanitarian food medical assistance part effort underway several years provide basic humanitarian grant food assistance russian government assure 's least minimal amount bread shelves major cities 's 194 million grant food progress , grant portion food progress 'll also continuing grant assistance medicines pharmaceutical supplies , 's 30 million second item concessional food sales know , united states long term grain relationship russia 's important us 's important russia continue relationship president chosen food progress program concessional loan program value next seven months 700 million concessional terms exact terms worked , think 's fair say grace period principal six seven years , concessional rates thereafter life deal third program collection private sector support think one important things 're going privatization creation small businesses number one priority reform government moscow president decided create russian american enterprise fund capitalized year 50 million goal fund make direct loans small businesses russia , take positions businesses president also decided create privatization fund would work directly russian government priority objective trying convert state enterprises state owned basis private basis also agreed president also agreed establish foundation would private foundation led prominent americans fund democratization projects russia fourth grouping see summary page democratization think 's fair say administration given new impetus goal pursuing democratization russia see total 48 million programs , various programs detailed tables give indication programs 're launching president also calling development democracy corps , umbrella group try incorporate disparate private public efforts underway united states support reform russia fifth program see russian office resettlement new initiative created administration demonstration project 'd like work russian military help russian officers returning baltic states parts former soviet union want make sure work best way , whether 's russian labor russian materials using american construction 've decided fund demonstration basis construction 450 housing units 'll working closely russian military would say long term commitment project sixth area energy environment two issues president feels strongly initial efforts feasibility studies look possibility enhancing energy production , oil gas equally important trying cut oil gas pipeline systems , cause much environmental damage 've talked little bit trade investment , new group created vice president chair side secretary ron brown also deputy prime minister , business development committee , work sectors economy , break many barriers currently exist impede trade investment also going appoint full time investment american government work problem full time point 'd like make , trade investment 1990s every bit important , draw analogy , arms reductions '70s '80s thought looking needed make commitment within government people work senior people full time basis , terribly important 'll notice united states going support russia 's membership gatt russia observer status russia requested support , fact , requested advice becoming member gatt think long term goal drawing russia global economy paramount , important goal supporting membership gatt also supporting access , generalized system preferences 'll note ex im extended 82 million credit caterpillar deal siberia , opic extended 150 million credits loan guarantees oil project 'd like emphasize close agreement russia united states 2 billion framework facility ex im bank would finance russian purchases american oil gas equipment services think important development think 'll get april 14th , opening day tokyo conference , g 7 conference take questions , 'd like defer colleague , review security assistance objectives senior administration official major unfinished agenda russians counterparts ukraine , belarus area safe secure dismantlement nuclear territory terms start start ii agreements recently completed moscow three , think , important agreements devote significant chunk nunn lugar funding three important programs first program 130 million strategic nuclear delivery vehicle dismantlement program submarines , icbm dismantlement bomber dismantlement 130 million second 75 million funding construction facility store nuclear materials removed essentially contribute overall design early phases construction storage facility finally , 10 million money help establishment monitoring system nuclear materials withdrawn weapons system add 215 million total extant nunn lugar assistance flowing 150 million overall safety improvements various kinds equipment safety measures working russians last couple years area going lot work russians , , belarus , example , , last couple weeks , received 65 million funds safety , security dismantlement programs territory wake start , agreement npt working hard parties lisbon protocols , continue work hard look upon three recent agreements russia important step process q opic funds field already signed deal feel necessary 's one , feel 's necessary \? senior administration official 's deal chevron signed deal , oil field new investment project 's polar lights oil development project , 's announced today 's completely new q tell us 's involved \? senior administration official yes , like american oil companies searching ways two things one , prospect new oil siberia , west siberia two , try get business oil wells , oil gas , russia objective , obviously , take advantage natural resources russia , increase energy production , , turn , increase hard currency revenues , russia needs think deal , good development russia russians well , 's good american company american government played leading role pulling together credit facility opic loan guarantee q 's search also fields already \? senior administration official 's right q point , american companies expect get administration support deals , go ex im try get money 2 billion \? senior administration official well , know , ex im part u government various parts u government pushing , including state department white house deal think arrive agreement april 14th , 2 billion financing available american companies sell equipment sell services q take rest deals wo n't wo n't support opic sort deals \? senior administration official 's tremendous amount interest part american oil gas companies invest russia think ex im oil gas facility , 2 billion facility , concluded , soak lot interest think interest may even extend beyond , government respond q 's current year budget costs 2 billion agreement go forward \? current year budget costs senior administration official 'll refer ex im n't know details q concessional food sales current year costs , delayed years payments due \? senior administration official concessional food sales food progress , usda program usda funds , n't need go back congress expend funds hit budget 'd refer usda details q talk democracy corps \? q private sector many folks going involved \? senior administration official n't start democracy corps first think administration felt coming office literally thousands organization , private organizations united states one way another working goal trying achieve democratization russia , helping farmer farmer basis literally 10 15 u government agencies variety programs area administration felt president felt important try draw initiatives together one group give coherence efforts give impetus efforts presidential initiative headed ambassador tom soon take duties coordinator u assistance former soviet union 're hopeful might use democracy corps draw upon resources government , resources american private sector schools communities across nation q kind commitment yet , kind word yet , new money needs appropriated besides 300 million president talked \? senior administration official administration requesting additional funds 700 million president done weekend consult really intensively yesterday president yeltsin additional measures united states could take areas support reform 'll consulting congress returns washington , 'll consulting also ally governments , 'll make decision time q two questions 700 billion agricultural money first , thought sort consensus russia need loans food decide way \? secondly , could explain agriculture stopped making loans food russia 's inability pay fit situation \? senior administration official know , united states long time major supplier grains food , agricultural products russia think 1991 '92 extended little bit history 5 5 billion credits , credit guarantees , commodity credit corporation principal vehicle ensure sale american grain products december 1 last year , '92 , russian government stopped payments program us program , therefore , law , united states cannot continue program president , working secretary espy officials cabinet , looked ways could promote american grain sales think two ways 've announced today 194 million grant food assistance food progress program sufficient authority spend 700 million grant food , looked concessional loan program think everybody agrees russia short term loan program russia would make sense , long term concessional loan program would program provide , final details worked , six seven year grace period payments principal years seven 15 , life deal , provide concessional rates interest generally around three four percent believe russian government believes good deal avoid imperative early payments put years , also continue important grain relationship , important , 's important american farm community q gather say could make explicit failure pay interest ecc loan way affect kind loan going , right \? senior administration official let explicit prevented law continuing commodity credit corporation short term credit program russia 's united states know total , think , around 640 million usda give exact figure taken consideration wanting preserve american market share long term grain relationship , wanting respond specific request russian government major food assistance , knowing could n't take grant programs n't sufficient authority , looked food progress , program 've used great effect parts world consulted russian government arrived solution think russians pleased provides food , also gives little bit relief short term payments q funds actually come \? senior administration official come food progress program , program usda 's authority usda authority spend funds need go back congress funds want make general point everything package , 1 6 billion package , funds already allocated appropriated congress administration begin spend tomorrow 's important eyes expend funds year , meet commitments confident 'll able q arrive figure 700 million max program , actually range 0 senior administration official 's reason reason russian government told us 's amount grain needed harvest time idea would begin shipments probably 100 million per month harvest autumn , time russia wo n't require level food imports west q would imagine 's going considerable envy jealousy part republics size scope russia given consideration advancing negotiations kinds projects ukraine , georgia , republics \? senior administration official yes , 're conscience fact also interest extending american support 11 countries former soviet union told , planned area technical assistance , grant technical assistance see , roughly 50 percent funding go russia roughly 50 percent countries area food sales , active ukraine , grant food assistance georgia armenia continue think 's fair say summit go back look programs countries ensure adequate productive 're hard hitting q anything happened summit lead american energy companies companies believe russia going user friendly toward terms taxing , legalities , bureaucracy \? senior administration official well , one primary objectives coming summit highlight , economic agenda , also trade investment 'd like refer point made beginning 're convinced talking problem problem support russia long term 're convinced collection western governments financial resources next decade fuel continuation reform , private sector look society see tremendous capability resources oil gas sector good match russians need , financial investment existing oil gas wells pipeline new technology new capital finance new production 's russian government told us wants , 's made major emphasis 's trade investment prominent issue first day talks , fact , figured last night meeting president yeltsin president clinton 're hoping together might send strong signal american business community support efforts invest russia , united states , ex im opec department commerce , support q question , yeltsin position deliver making russia senior administration official think would note president yeltsin 's prime minister , mr , worked 30 years russian oil gas sector chair high level commission vice president , vice president gore , try break barriers currently exist western investment oil gas sector believe commitment make committee important committee 're looking forward work q type mechanism already place administer private sector portion program \? u directly involved tail end distribution actual funds money simply turned russian government distribution \? senior administration official talking variety programs listed \? depends program cases , though , either working american american government agencies ensure money obviously well spent , money gets intended source 's obligation congress ensure money well spent account money done last couple months intensively continue programs quite different instance , area grant food medical assistance , grant food carried usda usda accounts delivery food grant medical assistance , 've working project hope private organization housing instance , resettlement russian officers , 'll working group american democratization projects , 're working directly russian private individuals private foundations 're working journalists russia media project may noticed literally 30 40 different activities 're going carried slightly different ways directly russian government , russian citizens q jackson vanik restrictions remain cocom restrictions remain , tell us president \? senior administration official well , george noted yesterday , president yeltsin raised relationship president noted think 's fair say go back government return washington look questions , 'll get back russian government q prepared questions got \? senior administration official prepared questions 've looked 're prepared make quick decision weekend require let explain , particularly jackson vanik require consultation congress require consultation american jewish community 're sensitive concerns 'll want go back talk take action q package designed go congress anything point \? senior administration official said beginning , advantage particular package funds allocated appropriated congress administration go back congress seek additional authority fund efforts effect , begin tomorrow , know many agencies responsible projects begin tomorrow 's advantage particular initiative q , president says , long term , long haul thing , members congress moment heading moscow , n't talking going congress suggesting president russia prepared go congress various things \? senior administration official think 've clear president discussing weekend president yeltsin additional ideas american funding additional projects , ideas major congressional delegation left last night , headed representative 'll want consult delegation members congress anything 'll also want consult allies 's stands q 've told repeatedly number items represent different new ways spending money already appropriated could tick items represents least spending money ways previously set \? senior administration official think 've said projects either congress allocated money freedom support act funds left administration took office new ideas funds might expended n't use freedom support act funds funds went agency ex im , opic , usda tried look creative ways programs example food progress concessional loans hit brick wall another type funding usda could go forward legally , looked creative way ensure continued american market share ensure continued grain sales , think found q , example , getting money russian officer resettlement senior administration official 's freedom support act funds q words , money directly spent new ways , speak senior administration official grant projects see look general chart , second chart , 's broken grant credits look grants , technical cooperation projects total 281 9 million almost freedom support act funding little bit leftover funds fiscal year '92 nunn lugar funds , course , know legislative history funds q cooperation senior administration official fy '92 \? n't exact figure considerable figure q could tell us please , anything happened weekend break log jam ukraine russia start start ii result 's happened senior administration official presidents , president yeltsin president clinton , discussing issue morning fact , n't yet gotten security arms control related issues morning 's session know president clinton strongly top priority us 've talking russians last couple weeks ways might help facilitate discussions point , important negotiation 's going essentially moscow point essentially discussing ways could contribute discussion , help move things forward essentially terms coming weekend , n't yet know couple hours 'll know q \? follow financing robbing peter pay boris since 's current year appropriations , taken anyplace 's put fund \? senior administration official smoke mirrors , think 's important point note could given page assistance numbers included year funding 're going make long term commitment many projects instance , enterprise funds , privatization effort , housing effort 've already talked russians long term commitment could put really big numbers could bigger package , wanted make point package fy '93 's funds 're going say 're going president feels strongly past legacy western governments , combination governments , put large budget figures number reasons 're able meet , 're determined , president determined , carry every single program package 'll longer term commitment , 's part discussions economics weekend 're looking russian ideas effectively support reform 've told commitment programs beyond fiscal year q taken way senior administration official , n't okay , question , reprogrammed funds taken countries pay programs russia \? answer , done q terms funding , available left simply find creative way find money somewhere else n't , fact , support theory \? senior administration official n't think 's particular example , example grain sales commodity credit corporation credit guarantee program short term loans russia pay back within 12 15 months know russia 's debt problem , russia unable meet commitments looked way two things meet russia 's requirement grain 're net grain massive scale , also meet objective making sure american farmers chance sell products russia simply look another way finance legislative authority program successful areas tried former soviet union , thought q n't really bush clinton aid package russia , since funds really first derived initiatives put forward president bush \? senior administration official , n't think 's fair characterization lot funds appropriated u congress 1991 , 1992 administration took office inherited obligations bush administration made long six seven week review program decided meet commitments made previous administration gone well beyond funding enterprise fund , idea , idea filled program number attached grouping together projects trying make coherent whole privatization effort , would say , another clinton initiative , listened russian government listened russian military told us resettlement officers important political economic social reasons president clinton responded making long term commitment beyond demonstration project 're going figure way much trying settle officers would also say president given impetus us agencies think much broadly democratization , experience comparative advantage lends russian experience calling creation democracy corps , another new initiative , 're hopeful take resources private sector well american government , achieve objective would characterize way know , career civil servant last administration i'm familiar last administration would characterize clinton assistance package russia q 's lot criticism aid past gotten people anything outside , guarantee money disappear 's administered russian government \? senior administration official think know president senior officials government concerned american money spent wisely get source 's intended 's intended 're going take great care aid state department take great care making sure funds expended properly 're reaching source would package simply package support solely russian government projects , especially democratization exchanges , going worked directly russian private individuals , businesses private enterprise support another example senior administration official could add word point regard ssd related programs , one area 've looking , closely consideration actually using russian firms kinds programs would working closely , course , american firms , would prime contractors fine example , think , imaginative flexible approach toward getting funding level , ground russia time ensuring spent efficiently purposes intended q would democracy corps start \? exactly see happening \? would get ground \? senior administration official well , president today calling creation democracy corps think 's fair say 're going work framework next couple weeks ambassador takes duties may 1st effect 've already started , last couple weeks administration begun reach people private sector come us asking us help facilitate activities russia 've said helpful 've also tried kind coordinate much effective way activities government 10 15 agencies active russia one way another think makes sense draw together focus efforts q excuse much 1 6 billion actually spent united states american made goods \? senior administration official n't figures , perhaps could try work something next couple days q figure larger figure press program grow yesterday result discussions , far mark \? senior administration official , think unfortunately press little bit mark , i'm sorry say , package president clinton put us work seven weeks ago package briefed intensively contributed lot intellectual leadership package contributed lot ideas package think 's fair say rough package worked two weeks ago ever since spent couple days last week going russian government , embassy washington government moscow embassy 's evolving particular package together two weeks q yeltsin 's input \? much talk president wanted get yeltsin 's views specifically needed forth years \? senior administration official , 's president yeltsin several occasions told us , instance , support creation private businesses important resettlement russian military officers important first foremost effort state industries important try make technical assistance part package listened privatization effort , working russian government months trying work details russian government programs involved every step way let get part question president also using weekend talk broader set initiatives might undertake 're looking ideas president brought ideas table instance , energy environment housing 're looking russian ideas need consult congress need consult allied governments also active q 's essentially nothing happened last day half altered package came \? senior administration official particular package , said , worked ready two weeks ago since consulted russian government final stages development , weekend 've primarily talked future , united states western countries support reform russia , base objective q noticed money appropriated train businessmen officers tell job training workers displaced privatization \? senior administration official 're right program train russian young russians banking financial services united states part housing initiative , 's build housing units , 's retrain russian officers retiring professions q money job training workers whose jobs disappearing privatization senior administration official yet allocated money q \? q 6 million going build 450 housing units n't lot money per unit given western dollar buy former soviet union \? senior administration official want housing right way , 's building framework house , 've got think utilities 've got think purchase land 've got think gas electricity forth 's also 's enough put retired officer coming riga house western russia think obligation try retrain officers well responding request russian government q 6 million go retrain senior administration official 's right q talking apartment buildings single senior administration official 're talking single , individual dwellings q 're saying 450 families served \? senior administration official want thought pointed earlier , demonstration project n't want given experience germans turks italians building housing western russian , want leap huge amount money want work next couple months try figure american organizations private sector best way get job done noted long term commitment would expect would put lot money future want wisely want spend money wisely q program convinces protect russia 's reforms russia position may back money 're supposed pay back , especially considering debt problem \? senior administration official well , look , think 's important note united states capability fuel continuation russian reform 's got collective western effort , 're looking allies well beyond , 's really russians going decide fate reform simply play role , feel obligation , consistent national interests q president say value u contribution would create security prosperity united states \? program \? senior administration official think go back fundamental objective policy toward russia , want everything support continuation reform convinced reformers stay power , 'll able continue nuclear forces , foreign policy cooperation economic interaction , three benefits united states reform russia 's simple question ca n't say program answer 's long term question make long term commitment q question russia 's ability repay , convinces 'll able pay seven 15 years \? senior administration official well , russian government made commitment repay , 're hoping reform continues , continue improve oil gas sector earn additional hard currency revenues , russia position six seven years pay back loans q substantial government government loan 've ever gotten russians \? senior administration official n't want answer authoritatively n't go back 20 30 years last four five years , yes , previous way financed grain exports really ensure private bank loans different type effort q government loans sector recall \? know n't done senior administration official think 's fair say new unique effort end10 25 pdt
ipser solomon technet sg \( ed ipser \) subject supply side economic policy \( david stockman \) nntp posting host solomon technet sg organization technet , singapore distribution na lines 29 article andrew cmu edu ashish ashish andrew cmu edu writes excerpts netnews sci econ 5 apr 93 supply side economic po boomer desire wrig deficits declined 84 9 , reaching low 2 9 gnp tax spending hike 1990 reversed trend brett true \? details would appreciated yes , sadly , true primary reason , essence details seeking , rudman budget controls working fact , working well unless feds something , going start cutting pork bush democrats got together budget summit replaced rudman historic grand compromise bush raise taxes exchange certain caps spending increases turned , taxes killed reagan expansion caps spending increases clinton first act president \( could create new plan tax increases \) result clinton hopes reduce deficit level reagan left office chew awhile
undergrad math uwaterloo ca \( greg \) subject damn taken organization university waterloo lines 59 article apr 2 23 41 04 1993 607 romulus rutgers edu kaldis romulus rutgers edu \( theodore kaldis \) writes article access digex com hess access digex com \( paul hess \) writes drag us cause problems home abroad rank ! america 's reputation abroad become cowards apparently requisite stand american honor dignity n't ridiculous , kaldis suggest give ugly american concept , easily see demonstrating , good hard second look american way way , 's best way , incredibly arrogant even think american way may way , may consider necessarily best way , , god , 's way 're going stick ! ca n't go along program , perhaps consider moving elsewhere dear god n't die fifties mccarthy \? 've spent quite bit time different provinces canada let tell , refreshing spend time people full arrogant nationalism empty patriotism exactly problem canadians ! n't stand anything certitude n't mother ever teach generalize \? canadian , stand many things much certitude canadians know well enough say , seem great deal pride provinces country , n't blinded flags ideals like many americans could bereft ideals \? uh huh must explain world , record low american crime rate see , 's becoming clear well , 've said much , yes n't angered words felt say something sorry ! mouse ! sorry \? n't courage convictions \? hell , even convictions start \? kind example manly dignity \? sheesh ! remarkable take courage , sir , nothing simple loud coupled bragging please allow introduce sympathy i'm man wealth taste devil 've around long , long years stolen many man 's soul , faith remixes
subject stop putting white het males cunyvm bitnet organization city university new york lines 31 tymnet com \( duane \) btw , i'm \( white aryan catholic \) duane tymnet com would like go record objecting mr calling aryan word origin occurs first hindu scripture , seems tribal term may connotations good character connotations quite explicit sayings buddha called religion aryan path word borrowed german scholar max mueller used synonym , nazis proceeded steal started pretending synonymous seems highly unlikely people originally called , iranians , indians , possibly kurds , none nordic use word westerners , though meant apparent good humor case , inappropriate westerners may claim call aryans \( descent \) seem wor shipped god called mentioned want check saying , look 's book , ``in search indo europeans , look encyclopedia reason usage offensive ancient indian literature well religion directly due aryans westerners butt really nice , mention horrible things done germans jews , using word germans clear claim rohit parikh
n4hy tang ccr p ida org \( bob mcgwier \) subject celebrate liberty ! 1993 organization ida center communications research lines 19 distribution usa nntp posting host tang ccr p ida org reply bob waldrop f418 n104 z1 fidonet org 's message mon , 5 apr 93 20 12 35 gmt rich thompson posts libertarian party august 30 , 31 , sept 1 everything always wanted know winning elections , n't know ask ! pray tell libertarians know winning elections \? bob robert w mcgwier n4hy ccr p ida org center communications research interests amateur radio , astronomy , golf princeton , n j asst troop 5700 ,
organization arizona state university asuacad bitnet subject celebrate liberty ! 1993 lines 5 narrative , narrative , narrative c b
hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) subject top ten comments overheard secret service lounge lines 36 reply hallam zeus02 desy de organization desydeutsches elektronen synchrotron , experiment zeus bei hera article apache dtcc edu , bob hobbes dtcc edu \( bob rahe \) writes article 1993apr2 1149 colorado edu ajteel dendrite cs colorado edu \( j teel \) writes ed , losing humor please take break get funny \( \? \) , even possible liked , list even sarcastic , insulting definitely one best look forward better lists \? ajteel dendrite cs colorado edu , must working , getting lots funny keep 'em coming , n't funny bothering 'd ignore six year old child funny trick say well done may funny may repeat bu still pretend funny even though n't older six expect realise thing n't funny basicaly ed fails amusing merely make jokes political content beyond attempting ridicule target calling someone slick willie funny even put red nose say , good debating point used spur moment 12 months ago use merely demonstrates user could n't think anything original say uk tradition old retired bore dinner guests rigid descriptions old ed clearly one type people fails see joke spent phill hallam baker
eskimo com \( nick \) subject debating special hate crimes laws \( many homosexuals \) organization eskimo north \( 206 \) 367 3837 eskimo com lines 68 article senator bedfellow mit edu wdstarr athena mit edu \( william december starr \) writes someone beats homosexual , get charged assault battery must add gay bashing list \? n't sort double jeopardy \? fascist \? douglas meier assuming questions rhetorical , answers \( \) deter epidemic gay bashing deterred assault laws \( \) , double jeopardy single act may lead multiple charges multiple crimes \( \) yes let 's leave aside personal insult potential doug created asking last question concentrate legal political debate last point first yes , single act may lead multiple , independent charges however , side note , think prohibition double jeopardy mandates suspect tried charges time , trial \( unless , course , government pull separate crock 're using four lapd cops arrested rodney king , e trying person 's already acquitted state court federal charges arising act think double jeopardy apparently courts n't agree \) note laws n't agree passed protect class people could n't get justice state courts specifically civil rights workers 60 's federal protection individual rights supersedes non state something similar long traditional \( well 's queer beat \) gays pays money takes pick , lean strongly towards argument know law treat everyone equals , regardless realities , lead true equality , fact may lead , times , towards greater inequality nonetheless , believe true equality least possible laws treat people equal , true equality , definition , impossible laws mandate unequal treatment classes people state william december starr wdstarr athena mit edu france said law impartial majesty forbids rich well poor sleeping bridges equality law construed number ways example fact property , regardless value , punished equally inequality protects lot money stolen could easily define equality regard property terms 's significance owner would form equality would skewed toward poorer people fact , anti gay bashing laws constructed offer equal protection make offense damage people based motivation hatred sexual orientation thus law impartial majesty protects well gays bashed i'm sure 's great relief douglas meier nick eskimo com po seattle , wa
ucs usl edu \( ott edward \) subject email keywords e mail clinton organization univ southwestern la , lafayette distribution usa lines 5 anyone prez e mail address thanks lot
decay cbnewsj cb att com \( dean kaflowitz \) subject thought commercial advertising allowed organization distribution na lines 254 article voder nsc com , matt galaxy nsc com \( matt freivald x8043 \) writes article talk politics misc , decay cbnewsj cb att com \( dean kaflowitz \) article voder nsc com , matt galaxy nsc com \( matt freivald x8043 \) writes 1 \) unborn child human point pregnency \? opinion , points pregnancy human 'll define mean human answer question put parallel q person color human \? 'll define mean answer irrelevant question , yes person color human , still n't know mean human merely begged question without responding trying inject notion race discussion , muddy waters without adding insight whatever parallel question could person human \? still answered mean human please would suggest legal precedent defines human \( e , person whose rights protected constitution law \) someone functioning brain could cite precedents , basis definition \? law allow removal extraordinary means sustaining life cases brain death , lead conclusion law defines human however , least defined human tenuous fashion , person whose rights protected constitution law answer question , refer roe v wade subsequent supreme court decisions , define extent fetus protected constitution law certain judges slavery violation human rights therefore , wo n't answer question instead drag irrelevancies want definition human depend law , holds solid whatever law may rule , provide would suggest blind faith would likely hold shoe foot brain life death paradigm one suggest one consistent legal definitions clearly n't matter whether unborn child rights , however , point lost irrelevancies larry margolis pointed , law made special exceptions order include fetuses , follow version human pointed , brain death means determining rights living , rather died significant difference wondering , argument failed feel necessary drag irrelevancies leave thread started \? got answers questions began , recall , made ridiculous remarks regard , corrected , changed subject remarks discussion substance really wanted discussion substance , disregard logic substance order toss silly , e g really n't matter matters , define human seek substance \? 're going convince logical person rightness position unless apply logic show meaning words 2 \) , mother right kill womb passed birth canal \? woman right object threatens health within confines body removed side argument would give rights fetus would granted adult human , example , occupying body another , whatever reason whatever means , reason means irrelevant , would able remove removed removal required demise , see reason law removal could effected rather examining hypothetical thought experiment , let us examine real , though rare , situation siamese twins one siamese twin surgically removed , knowing cause death \( barring emergency die anyway \) , murder \? support assertion \? furthermore , analogy completely inapplicable siamese twins equal claim body parts common try establishes equal claim beyond assertion \? merely matter came first , cannot one kill since equal claim \? one motor control \? establish superior claim \? others point , one sacrificed depending better chance survival , analogy fails precedence , possession makes difference woman 's womb also , see ignore statement would grant rights fetus would granted born human due inconvenience \? see , right life granted adult humans sense point prior birth siamese twins ever separated womb \? right assert siamese twins , n't even think true stated valid analogy , one exists birth \? freivald , entire argument failure interesting way trying combine two essentially orthogonal concepts point murder one siamese twin kill , regardless status physiological dependence \? please cite precedent basis ruling would difficult one siamese twin kill inside womb , even possible doubt case could made note use phrase post simply assert things without support analogy accurate assertions unsupported try size murder one siamese twin kill womb equal arguments idea illogical one siamese twin kill womb would likely kill well systems dependent life i'm still struggling see anything failing course , situation perfect comparison may well one siamese twin deliberately initiates oppression clearly case unborn child last statement total non sequitur comparison far worse give credit going let assertion stand also , plan following reasoned argument \? argument fantasy island comparison total failure , demonstrated already , basis reality , neither legally medically assert perfect comparison impossible , coercion oppression , ridiculous said , give analogy little credit failure one hand start saying want take real , rather hypothetical , situation , fly siamese twins murdering one another womb coercing oppressing womb reality situation describe way matches version said , decisions made regarding twin lives dies situations cannot survive , furthermore , already said , difference equal claim organs claim unequal seem asserting fetus claim woman 's womb fetus born , happens claim \? reason assert claim \? 3 \) parent right choose take responsibility child , laws penalties child \? last question irrelevant something non sequitur establish relevance even sense \? point unborn child human , parents clearly responsibilities toward parents toward children , relevance \? established sense point , ignore significant difference fetus born child \( dependence born child transferred another party , fetus cannot born child live within body another human fetus , thereby representing potential often actual harm body , case one talk abortion participants suffers epilepsy pregnancy represents significant health risk , case woman know , chose continue pregnancy , spent entire pregnancy confined suffering great pain nerve \) , argument argument abortion generally , best argument abortion time course pregnancy , quest common ground pro choice people spoken person \( none pro abortion activists \) concede child right life point supersedes mother 's rights except life often case emotionally charged issues , activists different outlook mainstream n't answered question situations dependence born child transferred takes time effort incidentally , pro choice side , , arguing government make easy parents abandon children state avoid question dependence transferred , slow seem think anecdotal evidence real human tragedy , ample sides would hate position mother nyc tell daughter lost arm botched abortion attempt yes , 'd hate one tell dr gunn 's children murdered religious , pro life fanatic please try stay relevant thing say responses see trying say something , result mash negligible value sez clever comeback congratulate readiness wit article talk politics misc , decay cbnewsj cb att com \( dean kaflowitz \) writes ground covered another post deleted point unborn child human , parents clearly responsibilities toward parents toward children parent forced supply bodily resources toward children , even necessary save child 's life make painfully clear , obligated donate kidney save child 's life law , confusion action deliberately taking away life child inaction refusing run front bus save child happened claim bodily organs life stake \? parent indisputable right kidney previously parent , standards \? different two situations \? see spell since meaning subtle one case recognize difference fetus born child \( ask born child cannot abandoned fetus \) , case recognize significant difference fetus born child lives two stake ca n't ways action inaction irrelevant principle , wrong inaction anyway ask numerous women post borne children inactive pregnancy healthy , live child , woman hang , eat chooses , plays volleyball like always , drinks parties friends , etc behaves differently , provision resources fetus may voluntary beating heart , far inactive dean kaflowitz
decay cbnewsj cb att com \( dean kaflowitz \) subject thought commercial advertising allowed organization distribution na lines 65 article voder nsc com , matt galaxy nsc com \( matt freivald x8043 \) writes article talk politics misc , margoli watson ibm com \( larry margolis \) writes would suggest legal precedent defines human \( e , person whose rights protected constitution law \) someone functioning brain , want use legal precedent , take look model penal code , many states base criminal code apologies unclear trying start statutory debate , since many \( cases conflicting \) statutes books merely suggesting paradigm might make sense pro imho cite one conflicting statutes keep making assertions , n't supported yet speaking statutes conflict definition larry posted delete code larry posted \? also , model penal code made perfect sense , perhaps , confused \? also , still looking definition one used clearly indicates fetus human likely please either pro pro choicers , pretty clear legal medical concept brain death brain death method deciding \( known \) person legally dead 's analogous concept brain birth coined may object paradigm , would make treatment human life consistent circular arguments usually consistent 3 \) parent right choose take responsibility child , laws penalties child \? last question irrelevant something non sequitur establish relevance even sense \? point unborn child human , parents clearly responsibilities toward parents toward children parent forced supply bodily resources toward children , even necessary save child 's life confusion action inaction parent run front bus save child 's life either , parent required feed children , desire consistency disappears suit needs principle protecting life abandoned based action versus inaction much principle suddenly recognize claim bodily resources dependent circumstances principle life 's principle , matt dean kaflowitz
bob hobbes dtcc edu \( bob rahe \) subject top ten comments overheard secret service lounge organization delaware technical community college lines 18 nntp posting host hobbes dtcc edu article dscomsa desy de hallam zeus02 desy de writes article apache dtcc edu , bob hobbes dtcc edu \( bob rahe \) writes uk tradition old retired bore dinner guests rigid descriptions old ed clearly one type people fails see joke spent hereby authorized laugh special dispensation offer void prohibited law , consumer must pay applicable sales tax bob rahe , delaware tech comm college aids , drugs , abortion internet bob hobbes dtcc edu n't liberals kill \? ci , 525 genie bob rahe save whales kill babies \?
an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) subject hard times investments \( subject given \) article usenet reply an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 33 nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu previous article , riggs descartes etl army mil \( bill riggs \) says n't believe wave theory n't believes horses keeps telling inflation coming back , lock fixed rate mortgage low possible well , looking new government pals , i'm inclined agree n't much believe money , either \) maybe 'd like invest foreign currency oh , ho ho ! knew ! \) yup , i'm definitely checking foreign currency , thanks newsgroup sure n't take much thinking realize direction u headed \( sigh never learn \) oh , ho ho ! \? ! \? ! , , i'm going sure thing sure bust california real estate \)
an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) subject top ten responses ed 's top ten lists organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 16 reply an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu previous article , magnus acs ohio state edu \( michael r conners \) says article news udel edu roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) write real question feds bail steve jobs next \( la chrysler \) important manufacturing jobs would n't lost \? real question feds bail ibm \( la chrysler \) important manufacturing jobs would n't lost \? could part jobs bill
garrod dynamo ecn purdue edu \( david garrod \) subject haiti aids hiv immigrants organization purdue university engineering computer network distribution usa lines 23 case missed news first 16 many tested positive hiv held base cuba flown u u judge ruled must receive medical treatment returned place could receive guess folks , taxpayers get pick tab \( might expected \) people never contributed dime u society think government priorities screwed want help removing illegal government , giving development aid \? make sense waste resources dying non citizens never productive either country make sense resources applied even plain given poor people haiti could significantly help 100 people haiti per 1 aids infected non citizen immigrant
wdstarr athena mit edu \( william december starr \) subject debating special hate crimes laws organization northeastern law , class '93 lines 61 nntp posting host nw12 326 1 mit edu reply thf2 midway uchicago edu article 1993apr4 midway uchicago edu , thf2 midway uchicago edu said sort separate treatment law place equal society solution fact classes vulnerable attack discrimination always done response criminal activity citizen protection allocate law enforcement resources efficiently effectively deal problems , rewrite law wdstarr feel increased penalties killing policeman \? federal employee \? use 's stevens 's example , increased penalties threatening president \? \( i'm assuming , like good people , oppose marital exemption rape , wo n't bring \) order questions , oppose , oppose , oppose \( huh \? wha \? topic come 's got discussion hand \? \) discussing concept different criminal laws crimes different classes people \( yes , consider laws allow mandate enhanced penalties following conviction based upon convict 's attitudes towards class membership victim fit category \) , category classes mind standard civil rights discussion classes based upon race , gender , ethnicity , religion , sexual orientation , etc ask classes based upon one 's profession rather one 's personal characteristics caught guard , think question scratch finally decided law recognize classes would formally officially declare people worth others , would underlying american concept equal treatment law last year , federal crime bill consideration would expanded federal death penalty additional fifty plus crimes , including murder various federal officers protected aura deterrence , critics pointed absurdity laws made death penalty available murder federal postal inspector ther murder civilian teacher , latter arguably provided much service therefore would greater loss society emotionally compelling argument , even proponents viewpoint appeared assume state judge lives valuable others basis contribution society view doctrine \( \) personally repugnant \( b \) repugnant equal protection clause 14th amendment accordingly , believe laws give profession based class people special protection \( via mechanism supplying stronger statutory deterrence crimes members class \) , even police officers , federal officers high ranking members executive branch federal government william december starr wdstarr athena mit edu
merrimack edu subject e mail hill \? \? organization merrimack college , andover , , usa lines 4 , clinton get e mail , i'm wondering congress also going line , anyone address reach \? \? i'm also looking bill 's e mail address please e mail , reader
radford cs toronto edu \( radford neal \) subject government mandated energy conservation unnecessary wastful , study finds organization department computer science , university toronto lines 24 article newsserver technet sg ipser solomon technet sg \( ed ipser \) writes government mandated energy conservation unnecessary wastful , study finds agree much post , one point seems mis directed standards living , population densities , industrial structures controlled , united states less energy efficient japan energy efficient many group seven nations controlled usage oil , gas , etc energy efficiency countries turns identical \) take population density example , one way reduce energy used transportation surely concentrate population dense urban areas \( though might , course , disadvantages , possibly even relating energy use \) fact japan forced nature country , us , mean people us would unable given sufficient motive conserve energy radford neal
kaldis romulus rutgers edu \( theodore kaldis \) subject damn ferigner 's taken organization rutgers univ , new brunswick , n j lines 24 article vm1 mcgill ca musica mcgill ca \( \) writes mark anthony young pps many americans special legal status based mere accident birth people born us become president us since parliament could theoretically replace queen anyone want \( even ferigner \) us law one dimension uk law regards birth privileges theoretical note ferigner william iii imported holland kick local boy james ii , provided basis film introduced flynn world \( love interest olivia de , went appear flynn 7 films \) exercise non old movie buffs film \? exercise old movie buffs 7 films \? views expressed herein theodore kaldis seriously kaldis remus rutgers edu believe major university ! rutgers ! remus rutgers edu ! kaldis would hold views \? \? \?
ritvax isc rit edu subject stop putting white het males nntp posting host vaxb isc rit edu reply ritvax isc rit edu organization rochester institute technology lines 33 may little late reply tirade also board along called great things white male done also contributed society means mass genocide , theft ideas cultures , creating historical lies among many horrible activities every culture upside downside seems white male \( must extremely ignorant qualify following 're disregard \) western culture things look actively classify things good bad , worthy unworthy \( ya dig \) seen slavery manipulation destruction american indians civilization nothing selfish acts benefit one group people \( even women get got respected regarded equal ai n't stuff \) white men specific lot cases wack wack conceptions world serve purpose look david koresh throughout history \( may one excuse ignorance \) white men associate god culture ignorant arrogant enough assume position manipulate mislead people hmmm 'd say look history books since seems history written glorify exploits white men 'd find lies awww 's enough already nothing sex board ya 'd like continue discussion e mail compare contrast ideas like conflict 's educational good 02 worth \( apologize thought going sex prompted response found \) dave lewis hands man
tekig5 pen tek com \( steven e soar \) subject supply side revenue distribution na lines 22 article newsserver technet sg , ipser solomon technet sg \( ed ipser \) writes result clinton hopes reduce deficit level reagan left office , considering amount bush congress added , would inconsiderable achievement 're subject , also believe supply side claim reducing taxes raised revenue also false , typically factor taxes , raised considerable amount , time income taxes cut look income tax revenue alone , fell cuts began , n't recover several years , record deficits well entrenched chew awhile crunch , crunch steve soar
libwca emory edu \( bill anderson \) subject formal rebuttal presumption jurisdiction organization emory university , atlanta , ga lines 17 x newsreader tin 1 1 pl3 kaldis romulus rutgers edu \( theodore kaldis \) writes article 1993apr5 midway uchicago edu thf2 kimbark uchicago edu \( ted frank \) writes 're breathing clean air provided government regulations , n't beat ever heard ! certainly says mindset ted frank , also statists everywhere yes , 's certainly need argue , address substance says 's statist , probably politically correct , bill
demon desire wright edu \( boomer \) subject supply side economic policy article desire 1993apr6 organization acme products lines 65 article pyramid pyramid com , pcollac pyrnova mis pyramid com \( paul collacchi \) writes article andrew cmu edu , ashish andrew cmu edu \( ashish \) writes excerpts netnews sci econ 5 apr 93 supply side economic po boomer desire wrig deficits declined 84 9 , reaching low 2 9 gnp tax spending hike 1990 reversed trend brett true \? details would appreciated cheers actually brett actually posted data previously declined 84 89 , remember , percent increase deficit growth , e rate growth deficit \( 2nd derivative total deficit respect time \) decreased would please define nth derivative debt \? last time asked seem disappeared 's deficits came 2 9 gnp numbers posted previous posting brett apparently thinking deficit declined cute , paul , numbers still look foolish keep spending earn , deficit keeps growing paul , like many others , confusing deficit debt keep borrowing lesser rate borrowed previously , deficit increases decrease deficits income exceeds spending use difference pay debts terms gnp , one universally accepted measure deficits \( least among rigorous \) arguments brilliant confirmed , data , many us know common sense boom 80 's nothing government policy , particularly supply side policy , since taxes cause economic activities people cause economic activity semantics lindsey proves otherwise taxes make people change economic activities shall debate whether gun , bullet , person killing \? explained watching population waves roll years create cycles made models predictions years well middle next century neat see accurate whether gentleman win praise lindsey \) brett 's nothing passionate vested interest disguised intellectual conviction sean o'casey white plague frank herbert
demon desire wright edu \( boomer \) subject supply side economic policy \( david stockman \) article desire 1993apr6 distribution na organization acme products lines 60 article andrew cmu edu , ashish ashish andrew cmu edu writes excerpts netnews sci econ 5 apr 93 supply side economic po boomer desire wrig deficits declined 84 9 , reaching low 2 9 gnp tax spending hike 1990 reversed trend brett true \? details would appreciated billions dollars \( gnp \) year gnp receipts deficit debt admin 1977 1930 355 6 \( 18 4 \) 409 2 \( 21 2 \) 53 6 \( 2 8 \) 709 1 carter 1978 399 6 \( 18 4 \) 458 7 \( 21 1 \) 59 2 \( 2 7 \) 780 4 carter 1979 463 3 \( 19 0 \) 503 5 \( 20 6 \) 40 2 \( 1 6 \) 833 8 carter 1980 517 1 \( 19 3 \) 590 9 \( 22 1 \) 73 8 \( 2 8 \) 914 3 7 9 carter 1981 599 3 \( 20 1 \) 678 2 \( 22 7 \) 78 9 \( 2 6 \) 1003 9 8 4 reagan 1982 617 8 \( 19 7 \) 745 7 \( 23 8 \) 127 9 \( 4 1 \) 1147 0 11 0 reagan 1983 600 6 \( 18 1 \) 808 3 \( 24 3 \) 207 8 \( 6 2 \) 9 10 9 reagan 1984 666 5 \( 18 1 \) 851 8 \( 23 1 \) 185 3 \( 5 0 \) 1576 7 8 6 reagan 1985 734 1 \( 18 5 \) 3 \( 23 9 \) 212 3 \( 5 4 \) 5 8 1 reagan 1986 769 1 \( 18 4 \) 989 8 \( 23 7 \) 220 7 \( 5 3 \) 5 7 9 reagan 1987 854 1 \( 19 2 \) 1 \( 22 6 \) 148 0 \( 3 4 \) 3 7 1 reagan 1988 909 0 \( 19 1 \) 1064 1 \( 22 3 \) 155 1 \( 3 2 \) 6 6 3 reagan 1989 990 8 \( 19 0 \) 1142 8 \( 22 0 \) 152 0 \( 2 9 \) 1 bush 1990 1031 2 1251 6 220 4 5 bush 1991 1054 3 0 268 7 0 bush source statistical abstract us \( 1990 version \) , american almanac \( 1993 version \) , universal almanac \( 1993 version \) , information please almanac \( 1991 version \) graphically deficits gnp , 1981 89 gnp 7 6 x x x 5 x 4 x x 3 x x x 2 1 0 1981 1982 1983 1984 1985 1986 1987 1988 1989 ironically , bush could frozen spending , kept new taxes pledge balanced budget brett 's nothing passionate vested interest disguised intellectual conviction sean o'casey white plague frank herbert
roy panix com \( roy radow \) subject subject organization panix public access unix , nyc lines 59 elroy jpl nasa gov carlos beowulf jpl nasa gov \( carlos carrion \) writes article panix com roy panix com \( roy radow \) writes imply relationships youth adults abusive critical factor whether sexual activity forced whether activity agreed upon freely engaged people involved child forced often damage , hand , wholeheartedly agree consensual relationships often found positive experiences concerned find hard believe \? care convince us \? carlos , check scientific research done area convince research around world indicates issue coercion critical factor interested research topic suggest , li et al \( england \) , constantine \( united states \) , \( netherlands \) especially like 's research actually quotes boys involved relationships say children sex new findings , new perspectives larry constantine floyd \( eds \) little brown co , boston , 1980 boys contacts men theo , global academic publishers , , new york , 1987 perspectives brian taylor \( ed \) academic educational ltd , london , 1981 factual report bernard enclave , , netherlands , 1985 sexual experience men boys parker maurice temple smith ltd , middlesex , great britain , 1985 children 's sexual encounters adults c k li , j west p gerald co , london , 1990 liberation , roy roy radow roy panix com rutgers ! cmcl2 ! panix ! roy north american man boy love association packet containing sample bulletin , publications list membership information send 1 00 postage nambla info , dept rr , po box 174 , station , nyc ny
ncsa uiuc edu \( albert cheng \) subject hard times investments \( subject given \) article news organization nat'l ctr app \( ncsa \) university illinois lines 10 originator shalom ncsa uiuc edu article 1938 tec army mil , riggs descartes etl army mil \( bill riggs \) writes mother law , grew germany , n't believe money started real estate developer , raises horses keeps telling inflation coming back , lock fixed rate mortgage low possible time really hard , bank selectively call mortgage loans early \? bank folds , call loans \?
lwb cs utexas edu \( lance w bledsoe \) subject urgent ted frank wanted killing aj teel article im4u organization cs dept , university texas austin lines 307 nntp posting host im4u cs utexas edu account many important issues , important ones , discussed net daily basis informed feel one important things could ever discuss censorship one fellow posters people n't like says thinks seen postings aj teel although many us agreed content , i'm sure us least somewhat interested , one , greatful live \( thought \) country people like mr teel allowed say please n't wa n't read , skip , , unfortunately , people cannot let others live let live feel overwhelming need snuff little bastards seems mr teel us , due mainly brother , cheif net police , ted frank please help aj teel regain net \( post \) access correct injustice hit list \? thoughts correct \? account safe \? sysadmin contacted thought police \? thought aclu supported people diverse opinions ! please read following forwarded messages aj teel may understand act forwarded newsgroups alt activism , alt conspiracy , talk politics misc , misc legal subject officer ted frank , thought police badge number nwo 666 summary ted wins argument killing opponent ! expires distribution organization university colorado , boulder keywords nwo ted frank well , well , well thanks eck panix com \( mark eckenwiler \) thf2 kimbark uchicago edu \( ted frank \) , account axed guess information presenting difficult deal \( ted mark \) complained sysadmin unknown number times get net \( defense , mark sent one message bad posted one newsgroups however , directed would common practice good responding via netmail \) disagree ted , would send mail sysadmin get axed name calling enough jumping every post made enough ignoring specific points desired picture enough simply ignoring kook enough even wish axed , wish express disgust argumentum ad silence opponent um \? ! would thought would wanted stay around someone yell seem sooo wise \( , think \) issue seems following advertisement \? apparently , ted mark think 1 \) posted article around one year ago taken net last year reposting article constitutes posting ad , guilty post name address , yes , price one posted address subscription price newsweek , would ad \? get nothing showing stuff 2 \) posted list documents showing examples kind proof requested ted frank complains sysadmin saying advertising , lo behold , , goes account one address ! oh , ! guess means ad ! value alternative view discussing , value discussion even agree , ask send note saying much show sysadmin rarely get ya know , user net real helpful whatever get n't like user please send note sysadmin need take manner least chance getting files hundreds responses people saying thanks info could send \? posts interesting keep go , guess fact decided waste time trying convince ted net offense tm magnitude warrant message complaining \( knock , knock name ted mark 're thought police seems pretty dangerous ideas , 're confiscate \) nwo indeed ! guess go back drawing board come new plan thanks ted mike hope happy days 's folks ! comments support requested longer post news ask accomplished benefit making alternative views simply vanish \? book seems easiest way win argument make opposing side shut images waco ah , alas process typing letter tax collector saying removed due letter wrote challenging jurisdiction oh , well takes time come info requested , getting started noted ted frank accused publicly 40 times nwo supporter never made statements contrary , ted frank 's motivations getting axed \? know people getting paid collect info people net interest government , ted sure seems personal interest debunking hmmm work \? university chicago \( \? \) well known one biggest nwo supporters finally , anyone would able help find new account boulder denver area , would greatly appreciate process installing linux able uucp maybe tc ip connection help would greatly appreciated since longer able post news longer email soon , hope anyone wishes contact via j teel , sui juris c usps box boulder , colorado , u postal zone leave voice mail c \( 408 \) 281 selected messages ted frank via sysadmin follows explicit reservation rights \( u c c 1 207 \) regards , j teel , sui juris \( ajteel dendrite cs colorado edu \) barb locutus cs colorado edu mon apr 5 14 39 21 1993 received locutus cs colorado edu dendrite cs colorado edu smtp id \( 5 65c ida 1 4 4 ajteel dendrite cs colorado edu \) mon , 5 apr 1993 14 39 19 0600 received locutus cs colorado edu smtp id \( 5 65c ida 1 4 4 ajteel \) mon , 5 apr 1993 14 36 54 0600 message id locutus cs colorado edu ted frank thf2 midway uchicago edu subject list documents cc locutus cs colorado edu , locutus cs colorado edu , ajteel locutus cs colorado edu , locutus cs colorado edu reply trouble cs colorado edu reply message mon , 05 apr 93 13 29 06 cdt date mon , 05 apr 93 14 36 51 0600 barb locutus cs colorado edu status please ask stop advertising wares network thank editor 's note \? \? \? article 1993apr5 colorado edu ajteel writes start document txt lis documents available bill medina , sui juris post office box sunnyvale , california , u postal zone 94086 0400 \( 79 lines deleted \) resolution thank warned taking action barbara j department computer science manager , computer operations campus box , 69 barb cs colorado edu university colorado \( 303 \) 492 boulder , co barb locutus cs colorado edu mon apr 5 15 50 36 1993 received locutus cs colorado edu dendrite cs colorado edu smtp id \( 5 65c ida 1 4 4 ajteel dendrite cs colorado edu \) mon , 5 apr 1993 15 50 34 0600 received locutus cs colorado edu id \( 5 65c ida 1 4 4 ajteel \) mon , 5 apr 1993 15 50 27 0600 date mon , 5 apr 1993 15 50 27 0600 barbara barb locutus cs colorado edu message id locutus cs colorado edu received next mailer \( 1 87 1 \) received next mailer \( 1 87 1 \) ajteel locutus cs colorado edu subject account cc locutus cs colorado edu , usenet locutus cs colorado edu , locutus cs colorado edu status already warned inappropriate use account must stop used account soapbox political sui juris agenda date tue , 23 mar 93 13 26 43 0700 barb locutus cs colorado edu ajteel locutus cs colorado edu also , reported commercial announcements , account may disabled editor 's note commercial talking \? barb bruno cs colorado edu j teel ajteel dendrite cs colorado edu date tue , 23 mar 93 17 26 40 mst long n't causing problems , typically n't mind received two complaints content messages far \( least one consider valid \) already constitutes excessive book n't let happen editor 's note wonder post \? \? ! laszlo eclipse cs colorado edu thu mar 18 01 40 15 1993 ted frank thf2 midway uchicago edu subject bouncing cc eclipse cs colorado edu , eclipse cs colorado edu reply trouble cs colorado edu reply message wed , 17 mar 93 21 05 59 cst date thu , 18 mar 93 08 40 15 mst laszlo eclipse cs colorado edu article colorado edu ajteel dendrite cs colorado edu bounced names garry research att com bill kean usc mun ca jad hopper virginia edu gator rational com hello trouble reaching following \( keeps bouncing \) sent mail n't gotten response , check also , anyone tell bouncing \? used reply elm send right back , right \? explicit reservation rights \( u c c 1 207 \) regards , j teel , sui juris \( ajteel dendrite cs colorado edu \) editor 's note reason posting header lines bounced messages show problem hopefully correct ted frank 's inexcusable post 150 lines bounced mail headers four newsgroups simple four line post would sufficient resolution lazlo yes agree policy watch someone makes generally let net take care inappropriate postings flaming user shape \( assume ment \) \( cs operations \) n't like get involved stuff \( unless illegal , repetitive posts gifs , harassment , something else community general \) suggestion take email explain post bounces look like tell rtfm laz editor 's note obviously , ted intention ted frank however teel mentioned though thf2 kimbark uchicago edu advice legally sound , follow u c law school probably wind jail standard disclaimers james donald , misc legal editor 's note sig , seems obvious ted frank axe grind particular quote \? hmmm sure makes wonder lance w bledsoe lwb im4u cs utexas edu \( 512 \) 258 0112 ye shall know truth , truth shall make free
subject news may missed , 3 23 sgoldste aludra usc edu \( fogbound child \) genesis mcs com aludra usc edu genesis mcs com organization university southern california , los angeles , ca nntp posting host aludra usc edu lines 47 arf genesis mcs com \( jack schmidling \) writes article aludra usc edu sgoldste aludra usc edu \( fogbound child \) writes arf genesis mcs com \( jack schmidling \) writes article 1993apr1 1105 rapnet sanders lockheed com babb k2 \( scott babb \) writes jack schmidling \( arf genesis mcs com \) wrote jac2y virginia edu \( jonathan cook jac2y \) writes restrict condemnation racial strife israel \? situations bosnia , tibet , china , etc merit comment \? far aware , sent close 100 billion dollars let 's exaggerate notice offer alternative number try one size year 2000 , american taxpayers given israel one dollar every star milky way galaxy let look number ok , admit hard data n't help \? would compile commented list grants , un loans \( \) , direct aid , 'd interested see could give references , example , congressional budget authorization hearings , could look 'd happy post verification data otherwise , 'll try hand , unfortunately wo n't sufficient time available end month , results would delayed let know 're interested samuel mossad special agent media spiking mind control division los angeles offices pratice safe signature ! prevent dangerous signature virii ! names shouted certain dawn message summons must moment , beginning , could said somehow missed
dreitman oregon uoregon edu \( daniel r reitman , attorney \) subject defense detractors organization university oregon lines 93 distribution world nntp posting host oregon uoregon edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article 1993apr2 colorado edu , ajteel dendrite cs colorado edu \( j teel \) writes article panix com eck panix com \( mark eckenwiler \) writes 1993apr1 colorado edu , ajteel dendrite cs colorado edu sez \( would thought would found better means refuting responding substantive points information b b needs refutation patent absurdity beloved great book speaks ignorance clearly showing , mark n't read post show us silver bulletin wrong corruption fraud government feel wonderful state nifty sweet \? fine think 's expose corruption fraud , please prevent jury question n't opening statement dark , wrote teel 's sysadmin noting \) wastes bandwidth posting identical messages \( long ones \) several newsgroups independently \( instead cross posting \) , b \) improperly used posts advertise goods sale \) requested post groups getting deleted \? b \) goods sale method showing source obtaining info message question retrieved entirety net simply reposted one year ago would complaint posted article newsweek posted address subscription price \? subscription info american law review \? bit double standard \? yeah think indication happened editing always possible readers careful j note complaint \( appended \) expressly disclaims wish suppress teel 's postings merely infantile , irrational , tedious name calling , mark \? best shot \? oh , see reason sending letter nothing opinion information right clearly motivations best interest poor users could speak n't talking attempted censorship \( sp \? \) , would funny , perception \( want better term \) feedback getting via email others keep ! 's go away ! 's least 20 1 would interesting hear responding parties , one , intention slave may like remember heard tribute day \( april 15 \) 14th amendment taxpayer slave ssn holder etc \? discussion purposes n't let irs see , mr teel way , reference ucc 1 207 made pari common law rights 1 207 recourse 1 103 remedy , noted times care count , likely stand court twenty seven eight ten color glossy pictures , mass , police , took use evidence arlo guthrie \( anyone knows alice 's restaurant aware , pleaded guilty , fined 50 , told pick garbage \) daniel reitman write deed one case involved construction conveyance jointly , tenants common , equal rights interest said land , survivor thereof , fee simple hold unto said parties , equally , jointly , tenants common , equal rights interest period term lives , survivor thereof death court held provision indicated intent create joint tenancy germain v , 294 ala 443 , 318 2d 681 \( 1975 \)
bernard sirius gte com \( bernard silver \) subject bill conklin \( et al \) 's letter 1993apr3 midway uchicago edu organization gte laboratories incorporated lines 27 reply thf2 kimbark uchicago edu 's message 3 apr 93 23 18 58 gmt article 1993apr3 midway uchicago edu thf2 kimbark uchicago edu \( ted frank \) writes article 1993apr3 colorado edu ajteel dendrite cs colorado edu \( j teel \) writes well , two nifty letters giving concrete proof income tax voluntary giving specific procedures stopping withholding , et cetera refutation date nay sayers finally given defeated \? sure would like hear reasons disbelief point probably yet respond refutation 've posted teel , 's bad enough post bs , 's even worse n't even try defend gets torn pieces , posting one 's looked facts point contrary point severely deluded mind found interesting conklin 's letter 6 cases irs , assuming cases really exist one \( anyone checked \? \) may nothing major tax claim irs fought one deductions defending deductions seems puny believe need file first place ! bernard silver gte laboratories gte com \( 617 \) 466
gsh7w fermi clas virginia edu \( greg hennessy \) subject concentrate child molesters \? organization university virginia lines 17 article optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes yet , law proposed virginia extended philosophy cigarette smokers \( people smoked away work could n't discriminated employers \) , liberal gov wilder vetoed shows liberals n't give damn best person job , 's power play course clayton ignores fact employers pay health insurance , insurance smokers expensive non smokers greg hennessy , university virginia usps mail astronomy department , charlottesville , va 22903 2475 usa internet gsh7w virginia edu uucp ! uunet ! virginia ! gsh7w
erics netcom com \( eric smith \) subject homosexuals organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 106 cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes netcom com , erics netcom com \( eric smith \) writes gsmith lauren iwr uni heidelberg de \( gene w smith \) writes saying \( 1 \) people voted hitler , became reich chancellor , good part used bully boys attack communists , hitler become become reich chancellor people voted i'm sure meant imply , thought 'd bring hitler became chancellor people voted political party 's huge difference parliamentary system statement common misconception , n't true german weimar system , chancellor necessarily leader largest reichstag party chancellor appointed president generally leader coalition parties could form effective majority reichstag beyond , implication hitler rose majority germans wanted nazi rule false well president hindenburg appointed hitler chancellor january 1933 , german people show particular desire led either hitler nazi party results march 1932 election president , closest hitler ever came direct election hindenburg 49 6 , hitler 30 1 , 13 2 , 6 8 election april results hindenburg 53 , hitler 36 8 , 10 2 see hitler personally supported third german voters similarly , nazi party never received 37 vote reichstag elections occurred july 1932 november 1932 election nazis lost two million votes 34 seats , 230 196 608 reichstag , socialists 121 communists 100 communists gained 11 seats , german national party , supported previous government , picked million lost votes gain 15 seats \( 52 \) think large party catholic center party \( n't know many seats think declining \) , numerous small parties thus nazi vote decline time hitler appointed chancellor brought hitler power demand german people hitler nazis run things , inability parties put differences behind favor forming effective government country germany enduring democratic tradition , parliamentary system lacked effective center parties favored interests majority population instead number small parties unable put aside specific objectives order combine nazis , end democratic process fact , part problem parties substantial representation , like communists , also end democratic process , different results mind , generally n't mind seeing parliamentary democracy go germany already non nazi chancellor majority coalition five months nazis largest reichstag party , certainly danger revolution favor nazis anything nazis starting get desperate failed get enough support make hitler president popular vote begun decline hitler hindenburg 's first choice chancellor , even second choice first , von chancellor since june 1932 november election nazis lost seats , hindenburg first prevailed von remain chancellor behind back support lacking hindenburg turned von , became chancellor two months eventually unable hold together working coalition parties oppose nazis , refused participate government led nazi chancellor nazi leadership , particularly 2 man party time , wanted participate coalition government others , knowing party 's support , figured best hope gain power lay undermining democratic process nevertheless , country governed seven months nazis , even though nazis largest reichstag party failure men achieve working coalition due inability coalition parties work together 's william puts rise fall third reich cardinal error germans opposed nazism failure unite crest popular strength , july 1932 , national socialists attained 37 percent vote 63 percent german people expressed opposition hitler much divided combine common danger must known would overwhelm unless united , however temporarily , stamp true , german people supported hitler became chancellor n't change fact overwhelming support power german people crying hitler take , matter bad economic conditions leftist parties \( socialists communists \) probably support total nazis hitler used fact others passively actively willing see government paralyzed means taking eric smith erics netcom com erics infoserv com ci 70262 , 3610
node bnr ca \( ken michael edwards \) subject economic stimulus pork \? organization bell northern research , research triangle park , nc lines 73 article 1993apr2 isc br isc br com , steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) writes fact , one list clinton package presently proposed includes variety recommended spending areas dollar amounts include line line list every project would funded \( congress may include line items bill passes likewise , may prohibit spending specific projects amendments bill amendments , positive negative , often pointed propose line item veto enhanced power president \) 16 billion package form block grants states localities asked making claims part program block grants go states cities , list 'd suggest contacting local officials , reading newspaper good coverage congress \( washington post , ny times \) , 're serious paying attention issues , get copies congressional quarterly library representative put mailing list congressional record \( 's free \) prepared invest time effort takes watch evening news read local paper okay deserve , already contact local , congress rep , senators , watch evening news , news programs , c span addition cherry picking went wish list , congressional republicans selected wish list projects variety federal agencies , based apparently upon silly names projects sounded i'm even sure bothered correlate potential expenditure agency clinton 's bill potential project agency , clear effort make clinton 's potential expenditures appear linked projects absurd names \( taken seriously equivalent tactics democrats would reagan bush era \) fact \( tm abc \) waste programs already exist , truely intrested eliminating debt , must remove deficit , away pork ! ! ! realize tempting believe government hands clowns dishonest best simplistic analysis little advance cause public education several books written gov waste , network news programs time time devote segments , bills proposed significantly reduces expenditures without touching external programs changing way \( make \) true , blame easy , also spending someone else 's money clinton ran platform would ' raise taxes middle class pay \( \) proposed program specific , counts tax pay ken edwards , bell northern research , research triangle park , nc \( 919 \) 481 email bnr ca ham opinions necessarily reflect views employer co workers , family , friends , congress , president 'd better call dad mom 's pretty busy chelsea clinton
subject top ten comments overheard secret service lounge mark 'mark' sachs mbs110 psuvm psu edu organization leader school diplomacy lines 22 article 1993apr4 highlite uucp , croaker highlite uucp \( francis ney \) says else president united states william jefferson clinton 's much better deal end term office disgrace , watching liberal democrat friends staff run nation toilet tsk surely n't wish democrats destroy beloved country party get trivial political advantage \? 's rather petty way think \( n't extend way u senate , 've noticed \) bush president , kept hoping praying 'd wise could n't stand man , wish 'd done decent job , might mess , would small price pay suffering another term republican control , hoping praying clinton good job even 're certain wo n't propose destroy moon , neatly solving problem blood pressure went mark sachs mbs110 psuvm psu edu disclaimer psu knew opinions , 'd try charge
julie eddie jpl nasa gov \( julie kangas \) subject top ten reasons aid russians nntp posting host eddie jpl nasa gov organization jet propulsion laboratory , pasadena , ca lines 137 article encore com rcollins encore com \( roger collins \) writes julie eddie jpl nasa gov \( julie kangas \) writes suggest listen carefully stuff yeltsin people saying compare anti west slogans coming opponents russian congress sure know want back could back without forcing others back point gun \? backed strongly early doubt would problem many russians became disillusioned democracy reforms felt , rightly imo , west n't care yeltsin virtually promised massive aid \( bush got mania \) probably kept dismantling congress calling new elections well , aid n't come n't make sure went proper places anti reformers gaining strength hiding considered non policy \? market reform happen , russia certainly get private capital private risk help economy even incentive reason n't reform , government probably consider enemies anyway rather spend money hurt rather help n't reform n't believe giving money however , think important take non approach really bugs libertarianism sounds like 'it 'll hundred years time need anything ' affect us \? well , planet vast tracks europe blown away think 'd feel something massive breakup country spans 1 6th planet bound affects \( course , also humanitarian argument democracies help democracies \( struggling democracies \) \) 1 6 billion gift important well , could n't raised \? people already give 100 billion year charity despite wishes libertarians , society far way , getting farther , libertarian perhaps voluntary gifts would work proper framework face problem , x years libertarian dream society right huge stumbling blocks trade , let alone charity still limitations high tech exports nasa ca n't buy proton launch vehicles sure , market may able help great deal ca n't right many obstacles instead fighting aid fighting tear obstacles market charities face seriously everyone different opinions stupid two causes aid russia strong space program someone else champion welfare education studies drunken goldfish republic true democracy instead gridlock massive scale , gridlock congressional scale seems instead gridlock scale , aid russia , expensive space programs , national charity n't help poor , probably , studies drunken goldfish think limited government key democratic well , think limited government primarily democratic due limited main question transform state run economy monolithic government something even remotely looks like \? \( btw , sometimes seems government trying go opposite direction \) going painless going easy simply cannot wait help government 'll never get without aid may late already btw , decide \? ' like want impose others sort thing thought libertarians opinion , libertarians big free speech i'm mine actually , politics pretty libertarian except one issue impossible join party seems libertarians want withdraw rest world let sink swim pretty libertarian except one issue libertarian consider compromise much money would fellow russia give russia oppose n't using government machine steal money group causes n't support \? also said , another problem transformation libertarian society going happen overnight seen nothing take current government society turn minimal government responsible self sufficient populace could 100 years ago people saying hundreds years n't nuclear weapons 100 years ago instantaneous communications travel virtually anyplace earth less day like beginnings global economy global decision making reason depend free market efficiently process information , depend rulers decisions complex issues yes , depend rulers free market businesses rulers emerge somewhere never represent opinions every person planet must checks balances checks government gets bounds checks industry gets bounds putting hopes benevolence market , , like putting hopes benevolence government julie disclaimer opinions belong cat one else
k044477 hobbes kzoo edu \( jamie r mccarthy \) subject ca 's pedophilia laws organization kalamazoo college lines 79 cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes k044477 hobbes kzoo edu \( jamie r mccarthy \) writes completely abyss believing queers world think differently child molestation advocating minority soc motss , n't even notice 's starting sentence believe referent millions people irrelevant n't want lumped together group , stop insisting treated member group please point said even member group , much less asked treated , much less insisted upon sexual orientation defined anti discrimination law passed last year pedophilia n't sexual orientation \? wait minute 've claiming quite pedophilia , according ca state law , sexual orientation position law n't specifically exclude \? know damn well 's going happen guy nambla shirt 's going apply day care , 're going turn , 's going take court , court 's going rule sexual orientation defined homosexuality , heterosexuality , bisexuality unless court decides pedophilia sexual orientation , business saying silence death pin something turn wholeheartedly support right take action would n't , unless something like nambla shirt despite fact homosexuals lying bastards \? black man applies job bank bank decides , based statistics , black person would likely steal money , denies man job would support bank 's right freedom \? support right deletia deletia ah , example , opposed civil rights act 1964 \? 's law passed signed governor people state california enact follows 1 section 1 purpose act codify 2 existing case law determined gay law students v 3 pacific telephone telegraph , 24 cal 3d 458 \( 1979 \) 4 v dayton hudson corp , 235 cal app 3d 654 5 \( 1991 \) prohibiting discrimination based sexual 6 orientation 7 sec 2 section 1102 added labor code , 8 read 9 1102 1 \( \) sections 1101 1102 prohibit 10 discrimination disparate treatment terms 11 conditions employment based actual 12 perceived sexual orientation 13 \( b \) section shall apply religious 14 association corporation organized private 15 profit , whether incorporated religious public 16 benefit corporation 's purposes act , term defined section \? definitions anywhere \? run state congress accelerated schedule something \? jamie mccarthy internet k044477 kzoo edu applelink j mccarthy
jason ab20 larc nasa gov \( jason austin \) subject top ten comments overheard secret service lounge organization nasa langley research center , hampton , va lines 29 reply jason c austin j c austin larc nasa gov nntp posting host ab20 larc nasa gov reply popec unkaphaed jpunix com 's message tue , 06 apr 93 02 29 13 gmt article unkaphaed jpunix com popec unkaphaed jpunix com \( william c \) writes croaker highlite uucp \( francis ney \) writes besides , n't want clinton , would make h martyr la jfk 's much better deal end term office disgrace , watching liberal democrat friends staff run nation toilet assuming , course , riots n't 'd go far ways run things bad reagan bush n't riots bush got dumped spotty behind 'll see 4 years pope charles slack time ! \? need stop watching tv start reading history jason c austin j c austin larc nasa gov
kevin rotag mi org \( kevin darcy \) subject conservative organization , \? \? \? lines 31 article 1993apr5 mnemosyne cs du edu nyx cs du edu \( mark cochran \) writes kevin rotag mi org \( kevin darcy \) writes article 1993apr2 mnemosyne cs du edu nyx cs du edu \( mark cochran \) writes sc allows restrictions \( term never medically defined \) physician ca n't make reasonable stab determining whether given fetus viable qualified perform abortion shows know difference determining viability individual fetus , providing universally accepted medical definition viability discussing universal definitions post , mark please refrain dragging irrelevancies agree statement physicians unqualified ca n't determine viability \? since know physicians qualified perform abortions , obviously medical definition viability employed case case basis , viability relatively easy determine 's good enough law , mark keep whining viability n't defined \? purpose whining serve \? kevin
subject cbs ny times poll health care alternatives jwh citi umich edu \( jim howe \) reply jwh citi umich edu organization project , university michigan nntp posting host citi umich edu lines 31 article 1993apr6 isc br isc br com , steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) writes thought others net might interested selection findings new york times cbs news poll national health care 'll leave doug fierro enter entire article chooses follows selection findings \( paraphrased without permission errors mine , times ny times n't make mistakes \) poll results deleted economic political ignorance americans truly scary price controls government intervention surest route disaster 's amazing , people never seem learn history \( common sense \) price controls , cannot work would thought last experiment 70 's would enough belief price controls actually work government intervention , people never seem get irony saying told biggest portion budget must presented horror stories waste fraud almost government agencies shown stories miserable treatment veterans get government run hospitals seeing stories social security n't going cut future \( come surprise \) yet , people choose ignore believe fairy tale government coming rescue simply amazing james w howe internet jwh citi umich edu university michigan uucp uunet ! ! citi umich edu ! jwh ann arbor , mi
wiggins cecer army mil \( wiggins \) subject top ten responses ed 's top ten lists organization us army corps engineers construction engineering research labs lines 16 roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) writes real question feds bail steve jobs next \( la chrysler \) important manufacturing jobs would n't lost \? la chrysler \? \? okay kids , nearest thousand , many dollars government spend bail chrysler \? zero say \? wrong answer wiggins , german irish american success getting want lead scout baby happiness wanting get internet wiggins osiris cso uiuc edu brother dave gardner
com \( philip h \) subject urgent ted frank wanted killing aj teel article 1993apr6 organization network equipment technologies , redwood city lines 31 nntp posting host heading true , mr frank ashamed nothing makes gag people n't respect rights others voice opinions idol lenny bruce commented asshole time magazine advocated censorship material time actually sided arresting bruce shows , whereby routinely would say , cops would rush stage arrest , times n't changed ca n't help think lenny would received today 's politically correct arena heck , even support right neo nazis speak opinions march streets mr frank anyone else makes anti semitism i'm jewish , longtime member aipac jnf , contributed 1000 apiece fine groups i'm regular contributor every pro israel group find , still support right people like arf speak vomit propaganda want know people ! ! ! i'm basing assumption mr frank indeed write sysadmin requesting mr teel case , hereby retract directed toward , stand mr frank trashing first amendment philip
mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com \( mark wilson \) subject supply side revenue organization ncr engineering manufacturing atlanta atlanta , ga distribution na lines 22 tekig7 pen tek com tekig5 pen tek com \( steven e soar \) writes article newsserver technet sg , ipser solomon technet sg \( ed ipser \) writes result clinton hopes reduce deficit level reagan left office , considering amount bush congress added , would inconsiderable achievement 're subject , also believe supply side claim reducing taxes raised revenue also false , typically factor need hop talk politics misc wee chewing gem awhile challenge made name single supply ever said last three weeks challenge gone issue challenge mob rule n't prettier merely mob calls government ai n't charity using someone else 's money wilson 's theory relativity go back far enough , 're related mark wilson atlantaga ncr com
bob1 cos com \( bob blackshaw \) subject thought commercial advertising allowed organization corporation open systems distribution na lines 47 voder nsc com matt galaxy nsc com \( matt freivald x8043 \) writes article talk politics misc , bob1 cos com \( bob blackshaw \) writes ms regard , please n't give us trite ca n't legislate morality nonsense little else legislated , including moral concept rights really \? pure socialism belief , fell flat ass attempting follow reasoning suppose pass law states must love neighbour , regardless race , religion , etc exactly plan enforce law \? better yet , plan measure compliance \? even overcome two obstacles , ever know become moral \? either missed point somewhat disingenuous never heard anyone suggest legislate people think laws based either expediency \( e traffic laws \) morality \( e human rights \) , far tell , majority based latter around see original statement nonsense believe cannot legislate morality simply stated pass laws want single one make moral people may make us act moral manner , actions reflection unwillingness risk punishment say nothing whether become moral perhaps distinction fine matt freivald tog i'm feminist i'm equal rights ! n't believe abortion , n't one ! n't believe slavery , n't one ! n't believe murder , n't commit one ! pro child pro family pro life opinions employer ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
tk com \( tom kimball \) subject supply side economic policy \( david stockman \) organization openconnect systems , dallas , tx distribution na lines 36 article newsserver technet sg ipser solomon technet sg \( ed ipser \) writes details seeking , rudman budget controls working fact , working well unless feds something , going start cutting pork bush democrats got together budget summit replaced rudman historic grand compromise bush yea , turned rudman sham fool voters accepting borrow spend policies last 12 years turned , taxes killed reagan expansion caps anyone expand economy 3 trillion credit cards big deal deficit spending expands economy short term long term economy numerous reasons would much preferred taxpayers 3 trillion instead result clinton hopes reduce deficit level reagan left office chew awhile reagan kept campaign promise balance budget 1983 , would need bush clinton raise taxes reagan balance puny carter deficit chew awhile tom kimball openconnect systems 2711 lbj freeway , suite 800 tk oc com dallas , tx
jason ab20 larc nasa gov \( jason austin \) subject temper tantrums 1960 's organization nasa langley research center , hampton , va lines 45 distribution usa 1993apr5 cbnewsi cb att com netcom com reply jason c austin j c austin larc nasa gov nntp posting host ab20 larc nasa gov reply phil netcom com 's message tue , 6 apr 1993 00 24 14 gmt article netcom com phil netcom com \( phil ronzone \) writes article 1993apr5 cbnewsi cb att com gadfly cbnewsi cb att com \( gadfly \) writes let get straight nice , long rant people need take personal responsibility economic social lives , sudden 1960 's radicals \( , guess \) responsible poor people 's lifestyles \? tell works think poor people dumb think \? many reasons disintegration family support systems general among nation 's poor somehow n't think murphy brown joplin top sane person 's list want go generation 's vaunted cultural revolution lasting change worse , try called relevant values education hey , seemed like good idea time know needed real education first mean , took granted 1960 's generation spoiled irresponsible depression create mothers fathers determined kids would want anything going overboard creating nation consider contrast two famous events july 1969 apollo 11 woodstock group large numbers people could feed reverted cultural level primitives \( public etc \) group assembled , took care , dispersed damage , deaths , large numbers drug problems n't woodstock also called biggest parking lot history \? rejected society went back nature parent 's cars jason c austin j c austin larc nasa gov
bob1 cos com \( bob blackshaw \) subject tieing abortion health reform clinton nuts \? organization corporation open systems distribution world lines 37 1993apr5 ringer cs utsa edu sbooth lonestar utsa edu \( simon e booth \) writes article 1993apr2 wdl loral com bard cutter ssd loral com writes sbooth lonestar utsa edu \( simon e booth \) writes sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) writes already kill people \( death penalty \) , costs even money , could well complain extremely barbaric way justice death penalty right expensive execution \? mean , think rope , cyanide \( gas \) , rifles ammunition arm firing squads affordable , perhaps lethal injection might expensive , case , let 's return efficient methods employed past oh , sure , death penalty fairly inexpensive , trial sentencing run millions unless wanna cut costs skipping trial sentencing murderous little rat bastard matter fact , thinking way make system efficient murderous rat bastards yeah , simon 's rat bastard , 's head attack puppy \) simon tog
bob1 cos com \( bob blackshaw \) subject tieing abortion health reform clinton nuts \? organization corporation open systems distribution na lines 44 1993apr5 ringer cs utsa edu sbooth lonestar utsa edu \( simon e booth \) writes article bob1 cos bob1 cos com \( bob blackshaw \) writes 1993apr2 wdl loral com bard cutter ssd loral com \( j h \) writes sbooth lonestar utsa edu \( simon e booth \) writes sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) writes already kill people \( death penalty \) , costs even money , could well complain extremely barbaric way justice death penalty right expensive execution \? mean , think rope , cyanide \( gas \) , rifles ammunition arm firing squads affordable , perhaps lethal injection might expensive , case , let 's return efficient methods employed past oh , sure , death penalty fairly inexpensive , trial sentencing run millions 's assuming attack puppy willing grant people trials new order hell would waste time \? \? \( convicted criminal getting death sentence \) directly hell , pass go , collect \( judge laughing \) hey puppy , getting around bend every day would n't miss adolescent world , everyone needs good laugh \) simon tog
rstevew armory com \( richard steven walz \) subject many homosexuals \? organization armory lines 68 article 1993apr5 22304 news acns nwu edu dmeier casbah acns nwu edu \( douglas meier \) writes article 1993apr4 isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) writes article 1993apr3 news acns nwu edu dmeier casbah acns nwu edu \( douglas meier \) writes someone beats homosexual , get charged assault battery must add gay bashing list \? n't sort double jeopardy \? fascist \? \( \) deter epidemic gay bashing deterred assault laws ought make beating homosexual illegal beating straight \? silly , thinking issue people , treated equally thanks wrong , bunch decide go straight bashing selectively target heterosexual man beat bloody fuck , would get charged well federal laws exist violation rights focus intent sexual orientation , law applies well national government right make laws necessary sufficiently deter punish crime someone 's civil rights behavior becomes well punished nobody even tries ! fact , last count , gays beating straights sexual orientation thus , law getting applied straights indulge federal government judiciary right enforce 14th amendment guarantee equal protection law even takes 1000 possible charges people would violate go read constitutional law broke back kkk 's harrassment campaign strategy early 1900 's many went jail long cut heart kkk rsw \( \) , double jeopardy single act may lead multiple charges multiple crimes think meant say , current mutation us constitution current police state , someone may charged multiple times one act victim question right shade single act never merit charge 's almost like four cops got acquitted cruel unusual punishment charges , country went tried oh never mind mutation call , protects little butt , happen somewhere 're wrong shade somebody else 's taste shown motive assault racially motivated , full power extra laws bring charges punishments come harmed first use laws well hundred years ago , constitutional scholars conviction recognize right reserved federal government well established short lived , ! go read constitutional law awhile maybe 'll get rsw douglas c meier dmeier casbah acns nwu edu richard steven walz rstevew deeptht armory com \( 408 \) 429 1200 515 maple street 1 without safe free abortion women santa cruz , ca 95060 organ surrogates unwanted parasites real men would never accept organ slavery protect women
rstevew armory com \( richard steven walz \) subject many homosexuals \? organization armory lines 94 article 1993apr5 mnemosyne cs du edu nyx cs du edu \( mimi \) writes article 1993apr3 news acns nwu edu dmeier casbah acns n u edu \( douglas meier \) writes article senator bedfellow mit edu wdstarr athena mit ed \( william december starr \) writes difference make \? homosexuals treated equals heterosexuals eyes law n't matter comprise overwhelming majority population , n't matter , numerically , 're minority , right \? makes difference , shoving false number n't high priority , minority group ne inflate numbers order justify rights claim des e extra privileges ask \? someone beats homosexual , get charged assault battery must add gay bashing list \? n't sort double jeopardy \? fascist \? douglas c meier space rent northwestern university , acns university commie lib pinko views dmeier casbah acns nwu edu know , thought issue someone beats homosexual , black person , etc , crime specified something special shit , beating anybody , regardless race sexual orientation serious crime pick crimes committed opposite sex , different race , different sexual orientation , form favoring groups groups hmm mean , think crime committed people treated , know many people prejudice people different perhaps hate crimes laws way punish bastards appropriately , person commits crime wealthy protestant white wealthy protestant white treated lower level n't discrimination wealthy white person hmm input \? black person , sorts stories fellow blacks persecuted beat race really tears , crime white white also treated heinous crime please respond would like hear views ther mimi federal government used laws allow charges order prevent crimes would occur two people pissed federal government interest intent perpetrators pursuit preventing violations civil rights 's way broke back klan , putting lot people away long time blacks specifically principle well recognized constitutionally valid since 100 years ago used whenever select group getting bashed harrassed person would part minority way made defeat south stick civil war people harrassed free blacks , normally would n't find anyone walking around tried jailed 5 8 years nobody wanted try anymore 14th amendment guarantee equal protection law , law use multiple crime severe penalty involving intent much needed protect even one human hated minority somebody call national guard , school girls alabama 1950 's , president state militia turn guns militia used bar blacks right around point thousands crowd order shoot would obey face possible death firing squad uniform code military justice failing obey direct order arms ! god , ! southern boys turned right around fixed bayonets ! governor left standing arrested federal marshalls brought order guard 's need ability federal jurisdiction rsw richard steven walz rstevew deeptht armory com \( 408 \) 429 1200 515 maple street 1 without safe free abortion women santa cruz , ca 95060 organ surrogates unwanted parasites real men would never accept organ slavery protect women
jmc sail stanford edu \( john mccarthy \) subject new environmental group launches reply nyx cs du edu 's message sun , 4 apr 93 23 02 33 gmt reply jmc cs stanford edu organization computer science department , stanford university lines 17 teddy o'neill creature hobbit feet bath uk , fool , posts force world wide youth movement , ought possible establish coordinated global program accomplish strategic goal completely eliminating internal combustion engine , say , twenty year period evidently open questions , either scientific people prefer live john mccarthy , computer science department , stanford , ca 94305 refuses arithmetic doomed talk nonsense
bob1 cos com \( bob blackshaw \) subject terrorist threat organization corporation open systems distribution world lines 22 1993apr5 weitek com nadja weitek com \( nadja adolf \) writes article wetware com drieux wetware com writes article geraldo cc utexas edu , ccwf cc utexas edu \( \) writes i'm prepared instruct individuals proper use handling firearms desert storm vet six years national guard , great deal experience handling weapons tactical training ps anyone discussion counter sniper operations \? security drills , friend counter terrorist operation twit promises train tactics weapons , doubt last long enough become terrorists look sudden rise firearms accidents among fetus , though bless , nadja , needed name attack puppies friends fetus , short \)
harris atd com \( brett atwood \) subject thought commercial advertising allowed nntp posting host ess harris com distribution world reply ess harris com organization harris \( government communications system division \) lines 4 debate deleted guess allowed
clinton hq campaign92 org \( clinton gore '92 \) subject clinton president 's remarks town hall meeting organization mit artificial intelligence lab lines 530 nntp posting host life ai mit edu white house office press secretary immediate release april 13 , 1993 remarks president , secretary education richard riley secretary labor robert reich goals 2000 satellite town hall meeting chamber commerce building washington , c 8 30 p edt secretary riley good evening welcome thousands communities around country taking part satellite town meeting month april know , today april 13th , thomas jefferson born , 250 years ago think 's appropriate mention beginning meeting since time , course , person one 've followed terms democracy importance education great country success democracy according jefferson really depends upon success educational system philosophy government , belief importance education also meaningful special guest evening tonight 're pleased us president clinton 's come white house join us chamber commerce studios mr president , 's good thank taking time visit communities satellite network welcome evening also us secretary labor robert reich , bob , 's certainly pleasant us evening also questions two guests , i'm sure many , please call us 's something 'd like ask number 1 800 368 washington , c number 202 463 believe president words might want share us , mr president , 'll ask time 's great president thank much , mr secretary i'm glad friends , dick riley bob reich also members cabinet headquarters chamber commerce support effort chamber making , along center work force preparation , help examine tonight whole critical question move young people school work place want compliment chamber efforts , recognizing without educated work force ca n't grow economy remain competitive , recognizing work together business government , labor educators make things happen satellite town meeting good example kind working together 'll forgive little home state pride , want say special word thanks wal mart corporation , headquartered , arkansas , providing several hundred sites town meeting tonight appreciate lot , well sites provided rest tried hard could move toward constructive change country secretary riley talked thomas jefferson 's birthday thomas jefferson believed anything , believed three things first , education second , real personal liberty , freedom religion , freedom speech , freedom association , freedom press third , absolute imperative changing times change go jefferson memorial beautiful city , wonderful cherry blossoms , see jefferson saying change changing times us america , means reducing deficit increasing investment putting people first compete world 're talk tonight educate train people better unless , none efforts rest us make government , even bring budget balance , even increase investment things grow jobs , last long run also people carry load world average young person change jobs seven eight times lifetime , begins education system continues work force education must go lifetime 's important know , learn might , 'd like close emphasizing 're best try innovative partnership labor department education department private sector build good school work transition 're trying get good start summer program would create 700 , 000 new summer jobs , including many thousands strong education component young people learning working time dick , think ought stop 's good place begin , think , discussion secretary riley thank much , mr president month get together talk ways citizens work towards reaching national education goals tonight , 'll focus goal five , communities prepare students world work week , education department labor department hosting conference washington , c called summer challenge , program work learning , america 's youth aim use special funds president clinton 's proposed economic stimulus package provide enriched jobs summer school programs young people areas country mr president , let 's talk minute alluded somewhat summer youth challenge program calls educational enrichment summer jobs words important \? president think 's important two reasons first , lot young people 're trying reach may trouble adjusting school learning want good experience real job , also want continue learn summer know lot research lot kids trouble learning school may forget much 30 percent learned previous year summertime unproductive thing schools take lot time teaching already taught secondly , want help young people progress , terms work , terms learning want abolish artificial dividing line work learning think best productive workers lifetime think experience could maybe drive point home prepare young people succeed school , work , college go secretary riley well , think fact kids gap , lag mentioned go next year , really even greater secretary reich , course , training programs throughout year wonder comment educational component training secretary reich well , 've learned , mr secretary , many young people , whether 's summer year , actually job work experience combined education one best ways learning many young people , example , lot difficult time learning geometry actually building something working something , see exact direct application geometry , understand 's used lot young people sense connection education world work terribly , terribly important 's important summer , 's important lot young people even beyond summer secretary riley thank mr president , 've called youth program , school work transition wonder would tell us little bit concept see developing president well , first , let 's talk 's important new jobs created decade require four year college degree , require learning skills go well beyond people get high school diploma look last 10 years , average salaries young people least two years good post high school education good salary went decade young people less tended lower wages go , many cases real terms fell decade , n't productive , n't valuable employers think america big economic interest trying ensure young people get high school n't go college make transition work , includes two years training either community college , vocational setting , perhaps job done budget , know , give secretary reich funds incentives try work partnership states private sector build programs state state way would customized essentially business community , based needs economy given area could long term quality american work force earnings american workers secretary reich add , mr president think know experience arkansas many people watching program business community educators , labor groups already many communities , many states , building school work transition program fact , 's awful lot ferment , lot excitement people watching program probably ones directly involved power secretary riley going everything build successes already secretary riley bob , 're going talking tonight youth tech prep , co op learning career features programs deal subject features every one school work programs might important \? secretary reich well , one thing 've seen working long time , much longer 've seen active involvement business community absolutely essential i'm delighted 're headquarters chamber commerce chamber commerce united states committed kinds programs training , education , 've aimed work closely chamber business community going actively engaged developing almost audit kind jobs needed helping educators , community colleges , technical institutions develop curricula relevant jobs future communities got come together mean , one important things 've got players community come together work together cooperate together know , often educators business leaders , labor groups everybody talking , 're really working together common strategy third final ingredient would say , dick , would commitment excellence commitment academic excellence also skills development excellence tracking program 're talking kids going make program every young person ought eligible want go beyond four year college , 's fine ought permissible 're talking foundation learning jobs , foundation skills job learning , critical components 's already done president think might interject one point based personal experience home business community critical role play , simply saying job skills needed 's ought taught , also monitoring excellence right sort partnership , people paying taxes going hiring workers going permit second rate programs survive way shape influence think 's important try , , fill blanks federal level , trying set standards provide funds , one things want sure make sure employer heavy amount influence quality programs , 's really 's going determine whether whole thing worthwhile secretary riley 's great 've talking , course , school work also jobs economic recovery program summer fall let 's talk moment long term school reform 's something especially close mr president , wonder would give us ideas communities goals 2000 legislation think coming forth long president well , know , back governors , spent lot time working public schools tried people saying lot things going take time hand writing national education goals governors drafted , along representatives president bush 's administration back 1989 're going try year leadership introduce legislation congress actually define things national government ought try help local schools children country adult , , meet goals making sure 2000 , people show school ready learn get 90 percent time high school graduation rate children 4th , 8th , 12th grades confident subjects 're supposed know second none math science schools safe , disciplined , drug free , course , fifth goal took line say last system life long learning country one goals 's national role , state role , school role , school district role , private sector role 've attempted bill 're going introduce next weeks define job give rest america way defining job seeing whether 're actually meeting standards quality need meet 's exciting far know , nothing quite like ever done form federal legislation telling people money , actually setting framework excellence job i'm really excited secretary riley well , , think really entirely new role federal government terms relationship states , serving partner really support facilitate help education reform efforts , driven high standards 's point bob , let ask one question , 'll get telephone calls 's subject , course , skills standards going part goals 2000 , wonder would comment secretary reich well , know , 75 percent young people n't graduate college often n't many alternatives wonderful system community colleges technical institutions , national skill standards could aspire employers would understand national , many young people would actually find much eligible jobs everybody n't go college countries smaller proportions population going college , whole level people certain technical , skills country n't go four year college 're loser want develop national skill standards 're going working states , education department , lot private industry developing standards think kinds things enable vocational technical institutions rally around , well business community secretary riley well , 's great n't go ahead go telephone call , see mayor bruce todd austin , texas q yes , mr president mr secretary reich riley , certainly appreciate opportunity join today dedicated professionals volunteers austin heard said appreciative let simply say , amen comments made already agree much tone clinton administration taken , supportive successful austin summer employment program last four years expect 2 , 000 employed year summertime perhaps much 3 , 500 federal assistance much question designed answered opening comments , must thinking alike question essentially involved initiatives labor day would appropriate know summertime important year round even important kind initiatives federal level might proposed meet needs youth year round basis \? perhaps importantly , families local community involved using federal initiative \? 's something believe important success effort secretary riley mr president president think 'll give everybody chance answer question , bruce , let first thank calling , thank great work 're austin 've seen 've always impressed first , regard summer program , hope structure way enable us continue summer program move lot young people back schools circumstances might allow work private sector , hope secretary reich going try set system create lot private sector jobs matched public sector jobs summer 're working secondly , program presented congress next five years , attempting build amount investment 's quite substantial job training programs , school work programs , give heavy , heavy weight local community input question asked provide federal investment dollars , hope put local dollars keep people working trained year round basis say , echo secretary reich said moment ago , try break barrier seen work seen learning awful lot young people actually quite high , actually learn much better 're 're reading listening hope community involvement part permanent , hope whole budget passes 200 budget cuts 200 , actually , budget revenue , new money education training , 'll able seem want based question bob , want say anything \? secretary reich well , took words mouth , mr president , usual let add one thing , one important aspects post high school lot young people going college , addition school work program , simply availability jobs 've got get economy moving , obviously 's terribly important get recovery program , get economy back track 's sort prerequisite everything else n't get economy back track think 16th correct i'm wrong , mr president think 16th month seven percent unemployment greater recovery lot kids going getting school june even everything right , would , hard time getting jobs secretary riley thank course , goals 2000 permanent , long term thing certainly reach next year involve , passed certainly hope action plans every state working together reach goals number different ways state , various school districts , important part citizen parent involvement think everybody see great energy , get moving next call dr harry , new york doctor \? q good evening , mr secretary pleasure evening may know , school work central la 's educational program since inception 1970s , includes college , two alternative high schools operate campus , forged local schools found extremely effective learning strategy years , 've come believe several principles important school work include integrating theory classroom practice workplace , providing students early exposure careers , well providing opportunities reflect upon experiences strengthen skills lastly , critical role liberal arts , particularly development high performance question , general education faculty academic curriculum closely integrated transition work experience \? mechanisms strategies suggest achieve integration \? secretary riley well , thank much think 'll get response , interesting work going 're going three people , next guests program evening , specialists area 're speaking , 'll certainly pass discuss later care comment comments might \? president 'd like say , might , one thing want n't think i'm clear 'd like , although think least one people second panel able say explicitly think whole concept applied academics important think basically abolish consider artificial distinction vocational learning academic learning think keep liberal arts going think strong component people vocational program secretary reich seems also need rethink entire tracking system , lot school work combinations important mainstream students 're important students 's special group students needs experiments 've seen around united states dick , i'm sure 've seen well mainstream experiments 're students 11th 12th grades 're giving combined work school experience transition program , kids either go college want go technical community go entirely large variety possibilities career directions get away often goes young people simply job related work related work within classroom , within schools secretary riley thank , much think 's going last call time mr president , think 've got move another matter , want thank secretary reich appreciate time ideas , 's tremendous help us 00 p edt
an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) subject clinton president 's remarks town hall meeting organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 19 reply an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu previous article , clinton hq campaign92 org \( clinton gore '92 \) says president thank much , mr secretary kind working together 'll forgive little home state pride , want say special word thanks wal mart corporation , headquartered , arkansas , providing several hundred sites town meeting tonight bill start \? shaver ad \? tune next week
wdstarr athena mit edu \( william december starr \) subject law economics organization northeastern law , class '93 lines 174 nntp posting host nw12 326 1 mit edu reply thf2 midway uchicago edu procedural note ted directed followups misc legal respect right , opinions \( 1 \) followup fields mere suggestions , mandatory commands \( 2 \) issue sufficient \( \) general political relevance \( b \) civil liberties interest warrant keeping active p c l well , least round article 1993apr11 midway uchicago edu , thf2 midway uchicago edu said uh , 's happened boomer happened boomer judge n't allow plaintiffs blackmail cement plant demanding multi million dollar plant shut 185 , 000 damages , required plant pay plaintiffs 185 , 000 make whole plant would never shut plaintiff 's lawyers would negotiated windfall settlement , plaintiffs would prefer amount greater plant shut , plant would prefer amount less value plant plant continue operation everyone 's property rights protected plaintiffs made whole unnecessary settlement costs avoided okay , 's interpretation boomer , based facts presented new york court appeals holding \( boomer v note new york court appeals highest court new york state united states 48 fifty states call highest court supreme court , supreme judicial court supreme court appeals , maryland new york call simply court appeals make matters worse , new york also calls second highest court supreme court , division atlantic cement co , 26 n 2d 219 , 257 n e 2d 870 \( 1970 \) \) oscar h boomer , et al , owned land near atlantic cement company 's plant near albany , n \( fact pattern gives information came first , plaintiff 's acquisition land defendant 's start production cement plant \) course regular operations , cement plant injury property via dirt , smoke vibrations plant plaintiffs sought relief , asked court order atlantic cement stop damaging property \( commentary seems entirely reasonable boomer al owned property , presumably , right quiet enjoyment atlantic cement 's actions depriving boomer et al right \) instead granting request , court ordered accept damage done property , provided atlantic cement paid 185 , 000 damages words , court granted atlantic cement co , private party , power authority take plaintiffs rights quiet enjoyment property eminent domain taking eminent domain always even 's done state allowing private firm , opinion , totally wrong \( yes , know , boomer court n't call eminent domain walks like eminent domain like eminent domain quacks like eminent domain \) let take issue way 've presented case say happened boomer judge n't allow plaintiffs blackmail cement plant demanding multi million dollar plant shut 185 , 000 damages blackmail \? \( pulls black 's law dictionary , abridged 5th edition blackmail unlawful demand money property threat bodily harm , injure property , accuse crime , expose defects crime commonly included extortion statutes \) define blackmail one party 's act demanding right set sale price unique piece property owns another party expressed interest buying \? demanding right sell property price \? see , boomer et al , found fortunate position owning something atlantic cement purchase wanted stay business , every right world set whatever price wanted n't , least n't , law says nice guy private business dealings go say plant would never shut plaintiff 's lawyers would negotiated windfall settlement , plaintiffs would prefer amount greater plant shut , plant would prefer amount less value plant plant continue operation , \? since courts supposed business preventing parties windfall settlements parties settlements arise wrongful acts parties \? atlantic cement n't want face choice paying windfall settlement going business , well , n't atlantic cement thought going business \? \( note far facts show boomer et al parties responsible bringing situation atlantic cement 's fault choosing build operate type plant \) say everyone 's property rights protected plaintiffs made whole unnecessary settlement costs avoided , dispute claim plaintiffs made whole , fact , court action deprived rights owners property choose sell sell property price acceptable deprivation made whole ask since courts supposed business ensuring unnecessary settlement costs avoided \? \( , 've always thought courts supposed business ensuring justice done \) boomer really taught infamous \? 's really sad , fail see 's less completely sensible read law economics stuff first hand instead filtered teachers clearly n't like , whatever reasons \( 1 \) boomer taught infamous , least school \( aside northeastern law usually good job hiring first year , mandatory classes \( , first encountered boomer \) instructors , regardless personal opinions , teach law students get second third years , students \( \) pick choose courses take \( except mandatory professional responsibility , course \) \( b \) presumed bit worldly self confident , less likely consciously sub consciously law school professors able learn openly biased instructors rather indoctrinated , instructors tend open expressing opinions especially true part time instructors , real life , practicing attorneys sitting judges educational , sometimes far taught somewhat scholar end aside \) called infamous 's opinion reasons 've stated , believe triumph something call economic correctness justice \( 2 \) completely sensible believe alleged right owners atlantic cement stay business avoid losing lot money due wrongful act , alleged right several hundred atlantic cement employees jobs disappear , trump rights people property damaged atlantic cement 's wrongful acts \( believe correct courts \( branch government \) grant private parties right take people 's property eminent domain \) 'd like posner , bill 's libertarian really \? n't know , anything , say cases like boomer \? course , much paper trail ever nominated president , democrat \( wo n't like antitrust stance \) republican \( wo n't like support gay marriage \) , bright law students shiver n't understand , 's easy imagine press play baby selling \( 've seen mike godwin claim posner asserts law economics applicable everything end , posner says precisely opposite \) goes 've admitted understanding field generally referred law economics weak advocates use economical analysis one many tie breaker factors courts may use help reach decisions cases dispute , measured scale justice , evenly balanced , fine illustrated boomer , fine courts start viewing economics case important justice case william december starr wdstarr athena mit edu
paul hsh com \( paul havemann \) subject clinton 's immunization program distribution usa organization hsh associates lines 47 article c5fjsl 6is ncratl atlantaga ncr com , mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com \( mark wilson \) writes news last night clinton bashing republicans stonewalling called stimulus package seems one small item within package going pay free immunizations poor kids clinton claiming republicans holding health poor kids hostage blatantly political gains aside merits \( lack thereof \) another free immunization program , program bill supposedly creating jobs jobs \? hell jobs \? 's another touchy program new , administration fact , major claim made universal immunization children immunized absolutely validity several states already u programs , programs years result average , success rates better national average seems gummint n't yet figured way make parents bring kids yet another case shameless new democrats , agents change clinton hot get immunization program , n't democrats introduce stand alone bill n't possible clinton one blatant political \( read pork \) manipulations telling republicans , pass billion dollar package , go people tell opposed immunizing poor kids \? clinton using issue partisan gain \? tell never thought highly clinton , stunts like lower opinion even thought one clinton 's campaign themes going new kind politician kind manuevering would made lbj proud together c'mon , know words meet new boss ! old boss ! chorus wo n't get fooled ! paul havemann \( internet paul hsh com \) 're opinions 're caffeine brain ! \( 50 milligrams per cynical observation \) recommended minimum daily requirement 1 , 000 mg keep reading
garrett ingres com \( sky already fell \? \) subject recent news news software vax vms vnews 1 4 b1 keywords organization ask computer systems , ingres product division lines 35 hopes adding little life , seems , old debates , would like add bits info ask comments 1 \) couple days ago headlines stories proof north vietnamese held u hostages war ended way back today 's newspaper \( page a7 san francisco chronicle \) article document held proof used without permission document , discovered archives soviet communist party moscow , russian translation described september 1972 report prepared vietnam general tran van , identified deputy chief staff north vietnamese army later article talks claim 1 , 205 americans north vietnamese prisons phong said easiest way prove document fabrication review 's career 1972 , said , deputy chief staff army commander military region 4 central vietnam 2 \) heard radio church scientology filed becuase employees , owned cos , filed class action suit requiring employees pay dues become members church anyone heard \? 3 \) micheal jackson went business micheal lie said anything panicking \? snapped authur garrett johnson still culture shock wait till 've garrett ingres com settled situation found bearings 'll start panicking ! douglas adams
piatt gdc com \( gary piatt \) subject employment \( concentrate child molesters \? organization general datacomm ind inc , middlebury , ct lines 51 nntp posting host x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 dov msi visitor \( cit cornell edu \) wrote article exnet co uk sys1 exnet co uk \( xavier gallagher \) writes true , man invent need food , shelter , warmth ilk , man invent property laws laws trespass think property generated \? grow automatically trees wish , someone produce \? say generated god goddess say result billions tons interstellar debris either case , property xavier speaks around millions years follows fact mother nature provide us automatically needs , oh \? stop \? mother nature automatically providing us bounty ever since crawled produced produces , year year last night , example , saw four deer crossing road \( pretty sight , \) earlier time , one would dinner 2 ways go produced things first trade person \( \) produced one take gun person produced first way civilized method , second savages arrange affairs american indians concept ownership property , often freely gave supplies neighboring tribes , trading food clothing weapons services native , like ancestors , also could conceive idea , shared many things islanders fact , , hawaiian word cherish means sharing food great , islands divided less evenly rich poor , white man 's idea africa , villagers often share tools , crops , clothing members village neighboring villages every ever africa least one tale difficulties arising called theft scientists possessions two concepts , visitors came along , natives understanding people call savages hand , car last year dov , make comment thread , think would study facts garison
cdm pmafire inel gov \( dale cook \) subject good neighbor political hypocrisy test organization winco lines 41 article l95 news iastate edu jrbeach iastate edu \( jeffry r beach \) writes article 1993apr15 021021 7538 gordian com mike gordian com \( michael thomas \) writes article c5huh1 241 news iastate edu , jrbeach iastate edu \( jeffry r beach \) writes think n't drugs legalized , would lower cost definitely make safer use yes n't think want start using criterion determine legality \? get people \? ! really n't want waste time battle legalization drugs really want , get prove idiotic idea ! asked question , n't want people answer \? believe legitimate question asked n't cost safety used \( least part \) determine legality \? 'd like see prove drug legalization idiotic idea seems evidence great britain pretty convincing drug legalization good idea even noted conservative william f buckley supports point pretty stupid justify legalizing something safer cheaper ideas hold criterion prostitution killing funny farm patients , aids victims , elderly , unemployed , , etc would surely make taxes decrease examples \( except prostitution \) fail miserably meet criteria \( safer cheaper \) obviously , killing people safe prostitution , n't legal \? dale cook town churches bars serious social problem edward abbey opinions mine \( e , employer 's \)
erics netcom com \( eric smith \) subject lincoln slavery \( top ten tricks \) organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 53 cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes judy technology com \( judy mcmillin \) writes cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes provide evidence slave states regarded slaves humans \? outside society similar phrases basically meant n't recognized rights free person , never considered human knowledge n't fact slaves purchased opposed hired enough evidence thought humans \? n't bill rights provide basic freedoms humans available slaves \? necessarily distinctions made citizens persons throughout u various state constitutions example , free blacks rights citizens , rights citizens i'm curious additional level distinction made slave states rationalize treatment slaves , ignored theoretical problems slave ownership bill rights , far see , refer citizens , makes several references people example , article iv right people secure persons , houses , papers , effects , unreasonable searches seizures , shall violated article v person shall held answer capital , otherwise infamous crime , unless indictment grand jury shall person deprived life , liberty , property , without due process law article viii excessive bail shall required , excessive fines imposed , cruel unusual punishments inflicted 've never heard constitutional rights apply citizens n't meant apply equally persons living u \? whether slaves considered human n't know , seems case could made n't treated people defined bill rights since nation nominally based declaration independence states men created equal , endowed creator certain rights , among life , liberty , pursuit happiness , would also seem slaves would follow definition humanity eric smith erics netcom com erics infoserv com ci 70262 , 3610
ndallen r node hub org \( nigel allen \) subject reserve officers say demographics ignored nominations close naval , marine reserve centers organization r node public access unix 1 416 249 5366 lines 53 press release reserve officers association reserve officers say demographics ignored nominations close naval , marine reserve centers national desk , defense writer contact herbert hart reserve officers association united states , 202 479 washington , april 13 u reserve officers association united states defense base realignment closure commission services failed give sufficient weight demographics recommendations made close 56 naval marine corps reserve centers letters closure commission 86 members congress affected locations constituencies , including sen sam nunn \( ga \) , chairman senate armed services committee , charged developers navy marine list ignored demographics civilian population , particularly prior service personnel 's executive director , maj gen evan l , aus \( ret \) , suggested concern plausible alternative intentionally attempting naval reserve components maintaining even today 's relatively low level participation parent service 's total force future asked commission remove consideration locations without sufficient convincing demographic data warrant approval requested action 56 naval marine corps reserve installations list large enough significant impact community , closed , wrote major issue cumulative impact moving closing large percentage existing locations reminded commission , fact vast majority reserve installations list come close meeting minimal requirements consideration process certainly supports thesis actions simply attempt substantial role navy marine corps reserve also noted end 1960s , number naval approximately today , 480 naval reserve facilities navy recommendations approved , less 200 naval reserve facilities facilities list include seven naval air stations ranging south , mass , alameda , calif , 28 naval reserve centers , ga , , w va , great falls mont naval marine corps reserve centers include four san francisco , fort wayne , ind , billings , mont , , texas major marine reserve center list el , calif , plus six others 30 nigel allen , toronto , ontario , canada ndallen r node hub org
clinton hq campaign92 org \( clinton gore '92 \) subject clinton president names officials , comm , , opic organization mit artificial intelligence lab lines 130 nntp posting host life ai mit edu white house office press secretary immediate release april 14 , 1993 president names officials transportation , commerce , defense , opic \( washington , dc \) president clinton announced intention today nominate albert administrator federal administration , dunn assistant secretary commerce import administration , christopher finn executive vice president overseas private investment corporation additionally , approved appointments joan yim deputy administrator federal administration , alice principal deputy department defense , deborah deputy assistant secretary defense command , control , communications continuing move forward putting together government excellent , diverse americans share commitment changing way washington works , said president six people naming today fit bill biographical sketches attached biographical sketches april 14 , 1993 albert , thirty five year navy veteran retired rank vice admiral , vice president international planning analysis center \( \) among positions held naval service deputy commander chief u transportation command , director logistics staff atlantic fleet commander chief , director military personnel policy division office naval operations surface warfare expert merchant marine officer eighteen years operational experience , also vice chairman national defense transportation association 's committee graduate u merchant marine academy naval postgraduate school dunn served staff senate committee commerce , science , transportation since 1979 since 1983 committee 's senior trade counsel , responsible drafting trade legislation reports , planning conducting hearings , managing legislation senate floor conferences house , overseeing variety executive branch agencies , including department commerce previously staff counsel committee dunn holds b history university kentucky , j university kentucky college law , l georgetown university law center christopher finn executive vice president american stock exchange previous positions held included senior vice president air water technologies corporation , chief staff senator daniel p moynihan , deputy commissioner new york state department economic development , chief legislative aide congressman james r jones finn graduate harvard college joan yim professional planner 17 years experience community based planning , policy analysis , project design management , inter agency coordination government affairs 1975 92 , hawaii office state planning planner issues relating natural resource coastal zone management public infrastructure financing , among issues currently , planner honolulu firm parsons douglas going work state , executive neighborhood commission secretary city county honolulu , chair community planning committee democratic national , yim holds b connecticut college pursued graduate studies university hawaii \( \) april 14 , 1993 page two alice professional staff member house armed services committee defense budget issues previously worked national defense specialist foreign affairs national defense division congressional research service , international risk analyst rockwell international written extensively defense budget related topics received b mount holyoke college , fletcher school law diplomacy tufts university also completed senior service program national war college harvard 's program senior executives national international security deborah currently leave rand , space defense policy analyst advisor clinton gore campaign space , science technology , national security issues prior joining rand 1989 , held engineering positions hughes space communications group , general dynamics , , inc served avionics technician air force 1974 77 holds b electrical electronic engineering california state polytechnic university , electrical engineering california institute technology , international studies claremont graduate school
pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) subject clinton president 's remarks town hall meeting lines 25 organization university tennessee division continuing education article life ai mit edu clinton hq campaign92 org \( clinton gore '92 \) writes secretary riley good evening welcome thousands communities around country taking part satellite town meeting month april know , today april 13th , thomas jefferson born , 250 years ago think 's appropriate mention beginning meeting since time , course , person one 've followed terms democracy importance education great country success democracy according jefferson really depends upon success educational system wonder realizes irony federal secretary invoking rabid anti federalist support federal education programs \? david veal univ tenn div cont education info services group pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu still remember way laughed , day pushed elevator shaft i'm beginning think n't love anymore weird al
cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) subject subject organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 18 article 1993apr13 ads com , henry ads com \( henry \) writes carlos beowulf jpl nasa gov \( carlos carrion \) wrote curious \( n't answer feel uncomfortable \) many times sex boys \? care \? total stranger asked often sex , would answer \? henry , allen hamilton , inc henry ads com typical homosexuals constantly making excuses child molesters clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent ,
cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) subject roe v wade distribution na organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 56 article exodus eng sun com , chased eng sun com \( david chase \) writes article optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes remain pro choice , pro choicers compare abortion clinic religious ritual church , start wondering bit pro life criticism abortion modern human sacrifice n't grain truth article exodus eng sun com , chased eng sun com \( david chase \) writes ah , clayton , see found someone new bash tell , many pro choicers compared abortion clinic religious ritual church \? 'll bet 've seen overwhelming support opinion newsgroup another article optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes , 've seen comparison drawn pro choicers ca politics worrisome \? 1 've reading ca politics , n't recall seeing comparison n't read postings carefully i'm surprised pretty shocking , part sympathy \( though agreement \) pro increasing 2 handful lunatic opinions expressed ca politics make think opinion widely held say \? clayton , wish knew made tick math sucks , take single instances fringe opinions proclaim existence pernicious trend 's quarter billion people living country small number almost guaranteed hold opinions \( \) find positively repellent long small number truly small number , long 're neighbor \( highly likely \) , i'm worried hold high public office , worry way , cite experts , remember carl sagan paul ehrlich sp \? experts , 've never heard experts , 'll consider source \( , man clearly unable master elementary statistics uses statistical inference \) ignore david chase mean , n't come conclusions emotional state requires clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent ,
cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) subject professors whining pay distribution usa organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 53 article elroy jpl nasa gov , fogarty sir c jpl nasa gov \( tim fogarty \) writes article optilink com , cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes article elroy jpl nasa gov , fogarty sir c jpl nasa gov \( tim fogarty \) writes article optilink com , cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes 2 professors get summers industry employees n't professor gets summer \? primary purpose professor university publish teaching secondary summer professors able research required papers i'm told advisor universities publishing primary emphasis many professors cal state university system n't publish prefer teaching pressure publish discussing issue , helps participants use definitions , although rarely occurs usenet use term university , think organization , masters , phd program believe cal state schools call colleges uc schools universities univeristy number one goal publish cal state university system offers masters degrees ph offered , opposition uc cal state schools , professors speak phds \? nearly professors phds n't professor n't , though wife couple professors friend instructor n't degree , minister culture black panthers , teaching anyway bad habit usually showing teach class , finally quit disgust racism university expected show teach university professors phds teaching assistants \( tas \) tas slave labor , graduate students got tuition paid , hundred month living expenses exchange grunt work professors taught lectures , 100 500 students per class , tas taught labs , 20 30 per class tim fogarty \( fogarty sir c jpl nasa gov \) sonoma state university , typical class size 20 30 per class teaching definitely goal , sometimes , actually happens best professors sonoma state u equivalent best professors ucla usc clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent ,
clinton hq campaign92 org \( clinton gore '92 \) subject clinton president 's remarks summer jobs conference 4 14 93 organization mit artificial intelligence lab lines 378 nntp posting host life ai mit edu white house office press secretary immediate release april 14 , 1993 remarks president summer jobs conference hyatt crystal city , virginia 11 22 edt president thank much speech gave says anything able say today 's important give young people chance get work experience continue learn , merge nature learning work 's important honor efforts people like jerry levin combs pat irving want thank secretaries labor education people work sponsoring good friend , governor wilder , speaking business local community leaders city county state level around america pretty fun day \( laughter \) loved hearing young people sing music ears future really struggling \( applause \) year half ago began quest seek presidency concerned future believe country , always beacon hope young , little opportunity , divided among across lines income race region ways , without vision take us future entered hope together could create opportunity insist much responsibility people process might recreate best america 's community , knowing together could always could individually might secure future today committed 1 , 000 jobs jerry levin committed time warner symbolic commitments made many private sector people , around country work combs , successes young people like stage , especially eloquent statement things show together know need , 're right track last july traveling across america 's heartland bus , visited high school louisville , kentucky met young people business people participating louisville education employment partnership saw combs talked today saw young people making extra effort succeed school work saw , seen many times state , principle illustrated talked millions american young people really impediment learning ability good workers draw sharp dividing line work learning world living , average young person change nature work seven eight times lifetime must learn merge work world learning world much better must determine young people see opportunities today whether 're business government education , know big job comes building future really , honestly includes opportunity people still lot people say , well , things pretty good washington everything 's fine best thing whole thing nothing jobs \( laughter \) people say \( applause \) health insurance pretty good education pretty secure knowledge 'll okay matter happens say either political unduly critical , point one great challenges age every advanced nation everyone fully develop capacities people , find work european countries higher unemployment rates , also stronger support systems unemployed japanese unemployment rate going 're going adopt stimulus , even count rigorous terms , three four times bigger one proposed create jobs west germany alone , unemployment rate high big problem advanced nations costs lot money add extra employee , lot pressure low wage producers countries growing economies trying provide new opportunity people especially important america two reasons one , whole lot folks , unless move aggressively , education skills need competitive productive nation like second , even educate , n't jobs robbed fruits educational people need able work country \( applause \) always unemployment , indeed , normal 've always got people leaving jobs moving around country first one thing another , moment history , necessity big organizations , including government , way organized ask whether many people working kinds jobs whole , must still able create jobs country like america , provide people chance work 's going difficult make welfare reform proposals make congress next couple months 's going hard make work , end work , get welfare n't job \( applause \) two tasks one develop capacity american people perform without regard race income circumstances birth make sure opportunities bring bear talent rewarded paycheck great challenge pretend answers simple know want ask american people , , responsible , want recreate sense community country bridges lines race income region , got opportunity mix part vision america future every young person country 's willing play rules work hard strive end rainbow something end rainbow basically talk today partners , recognizing none us alone , develop capacities people succeed wherever live whatever background , make sure 's something \? summer jobs program 're discussing today integral part plan , promote values work opportunity fairness , community put people first , partnership public private sector said addressed united states congress february program would seek create 700 , 000 extra summer jobs government sources challenge american business community meet target create million new summer jobs created many , many people responded challenge jerry shining example replicated room around country people going otherwise would private sector give young people work experience terribly important want emphasize summer jobs program part overall commitment increase capacity american people defense workers lose jobs adults need acquire new skills improving transition school work young people n't go college need least two years post high school training either job community college vocational setting , competitive workers , making possible people go college want go things part parcel comprehensive plan 's also important , said , create jobs emergency jobs program asked congress adopt would create half million extra jobs next year half , would reduce unemployment rate half percent would also enable us absorb young people coming work force jobs otherwise created also help lot cities counties invest things need done grass roots level projects long delayed , water projects , sewer projects , park projects , new industries particularly small medium size communities whole range things improve economy improve environment summer jobs program important part tried first time , work labor department education department reaching people like , make one shot summer jobs program integrate private sector efforts hopefully replicate coming summer move young people educational opportunities job opportunities strong , meaningful education component summer jobs something united states government never fully emphasized lot young people , well know , come difficult backgrounds , go school difficult challenging circumstances , need extra help building basic skills math language , reasoning areas lot educational studies show young people difficulty school often forget much 30 percent learn summer repeated next year trying give people opportunity learn good work habits reinforce learning skills put together , hopefully , next couple years , entire program passes , give every school country opportunity good work learning environment applied academics , opportunities people learn work school year , simply isolated moment young folks , part building whole new educational experience , whole new work experience , moving pathway better future summer jobs programs designed make work jobs 're designed make future people holding job 's process , 'll help build local communities , strengthen local economies , solve local problems real jobs housing , repairing public buildings , clerical work , providing nursing assistance hospitals , training children child care centers , learning way challenging young people learn earn , letting earn know , 's difficult make case people never seen opportunity street , , thing 's evidence opportunity 's end effort going last year half places n't exactly popular say , say wanted reform welfare system wanted child support wanted require people work sick tired people irresponsible use guns streets , wanted change 're going summon people greater responsibility , reward right thing opportunity \( applause \) young people propose put work program spend 90 hours learning basic skills , math , reading , writing either job classroom stretch minds well work sweat sense accomplishment literally summer challenge , challenge take different life want ask support effort even , president , support effort end summer evaluate young people participate 'll see whether , instead falling behind summer academically many young people , stayed even moved ahead suspect summer , secretary reich secretary riley visiting many communities 'll really try learn efforts working , next summer , build goes school year , build job training efforts works companies make sense whole thing maximize impact taxpayer dollar private investments well want honor companies communities , business leaders young people best jobs summer , , want say private business matched effort , thank n't , across country may listen learn event today , want private employers stretch little bit give young people chance work summer i'm telling , cannot go another 10 years n't give children anything say yes right , 've got able reward \( applause \) speakers talking , sitting platform , listening got talking work , got thinking different things 've done make living life 13 , made foolish short term business investment set comic book stand sold two trunks full comic books made money ever life saved trunks , 'd worth 100 , 000 today \( laughter \) mean young people means ca n't generation ahead yards cleared land built houses worked body shops parts departments car dealership 've done lot different things living people say got politics escape work \( laughter \) learned something every job ever grew generation literally know living soul without regard race income wanted work n't job grew generation really say people , get education 'll right 'll get job 'll make money next year year live generation full people , n't make money real dollars 10 years ago 're working longer hours 're paying basics life wondering whether create jobs young people want , want close two things n't matter kind economic policies administration , much productivity increases private sector , young americans n't get good education , n't learn work ca n't productive , jobs created country machines work work done shore people skill levels work third fourth fifth wages nothing economically matter unless build skills capacities america 's work force anybody pretends otherwise kidding hand , need honest every wealthy country world , including united states , difficulty creating jobs knew everything needs done 'd glad tell could call whole deliberations congress everything else n't answers know nothing answer \( applause \) jobs program presented congress , summer jobs , money cities counties , community development program , infrastructure money , small part big budget attempt engage experiment see whether , economy recovering terms corporate profit , give little boost , give opportunities young people , create half million jobs maybe get engine going jobs program going jobs private sector , government jobs , even though 's government money lion 's share work rebuilding american economy obviously come private sector 's kind system works pretty well challenge ask today support summer jobs program , ask friends neighbors support , go back home ask employers make little extra effort help pass funds create 700 , 000 jobs united states government create summer , together partnership anything else , give future future young people believe need send message america study hard work hard , obey law contribute something community , rewarded country build future dreams always promise america together 's summer challenge needs reaffirmation promise america many young people promise illusion make reality thank much \( applause \) 45 edt
clinton hq campaign92 org \( clinton gore '92 \) subject clinton press briefing george stephanopoulos 4 14 93 organization mit artificial intelligence lab lines 996 nntp posting host life ai mit edu white house office press secretary immediate release april 14 , 1993 press briefing george stephanopoulos briefing room 12 40 p edt mr stephanopoulos guess i'm prepared take questions today q george , bob dole says clinton administration 's policy bosnia failure wants united states take lead lifting arms embargo bosnian muslims defend mr stephanopoulos know , president clinton said suggestion active consideration obviously , tragic situation bosnia bosnian serbs n't come negotiating table constructive way , 'll look seriously pressing lifting arms embargo meantime , 're going continue press tough sanctions resolution u n 're going continue work serbs come negotiating table prospect arms embargo something president certainly consider serbs n't come table q much longer going give come table , george \? mr stephanopoulos 're working right q 's long time q february 19th , president mentioned value added tax ohio asked later reporters , said quote radical change tax system united states 's something think may look years ahead questioned later says , something consideration start considering , 'll tell n't trial balloon anything , said discussing tax response question donna shalala , quoted usa today morning quote certainly 're looking vat 's gone \? q alice rivlin morning mr stephanopoulos health care task force reviewing number options n't made decisions yet said podium time time , 're going comment decisions n't made q also said podium time time q wait minute whoa , whoa q consideration q yes clinton says , something consideration longer true \? mr stephanopoulos believe working group , ms shalala says , looked prospect , decisions made kind q well , know said 'd tell us ever consideration take n't tell us mr stephanopoulos say consideration something proposed \? q start considering 'll tell mr stephanopoulos 's something proposed \? q start considering , 'll tell 's direct quote mr stephanopoulos task force looked number different options made decisions yet president made decisions yet one proposals consideration task force go cast wide net possible different ideas reform health care system cast wide net looked hundreds different proposals probably thousands different proposals president made decisions q well , president aware consideration option \? mr stephanopoulos n't know 's briefed preliminary conclusions anything like task force specific proposal kind n't know 's gotten level started yesterday go task force wide range decisions n't believe 's presented , q well , 's relying usa today tell task force considering way taxes mr stephanopoulos , 's going deliberate fashion number decisions made n't know proposal reached decision making point q still consideration , 's change , least 've told dee dee , think three weeks ago said , option , talking big argument somebody , remember specifically said , twice case \? mr stephanopoulos , n't know presented president something looked level task force q ruled , though mean , unlike options 've kept mix , one specifically ruled mr stephanopoulos , something looked , decision made kind mean , n't 's necessarily material get decision making phase working groups looking hundreds different options q ruled 's ruled , something changed , george yes , \? q guy says february mr stephanopoulos well , working groups looking widest possible range options q something 's changed n't looking 're looking mr stephanopoulos well , n't know working groups gotten point yet casting wide net q possible dee dee able sell definitively rule option previously saying , fact , considered \? mr stephanopoulos , working groups looking wide range options q deny dee dee ruled flatly ruled several occasions past month \? mr stephanopoulos n't deny mean , president 's words clear q subsequent president 's words , deny within last month dee dee publicly ruled \? mr stephanopoulos n't know timing think refer back president 's words say stand q n't stand longer \? q march 25th , clinton said next four five years ruled mr stephanopoulos well , words president say february working groups separate track , said , n't believe q separate president \? mr stephanopoulos n't believe presented president q considering something president q ruled \? q ruled \? mean , president consider vat tax \? mr stephanopoulos , working groups presented president looked wide range options suppose argument made , clearly listen mean decided q put another way \? answer ohio , looked vat terms restructuring whole tax system circumstance said might considered future point longer case , way see vat emerging \? mr stephanopoulos guess i'm sure exactly 're asking q talked vat context tax system , specific way finance health care , example q anything else q anything else q always context substituting taxes time dramatic overhaul whole tax system mr stephanopoulos right q change , \? q still view \? mr stephanopoulos n't spoken specific comments think go back working groups examined possibility vat \? yes , q certainly 're looking vat , said mr stephanopoulos examined possibility vat presented president \? made decision \? , q kind deal 've got president 's appointed task force , obviously oblivious ruling something except context huge line reform , goes ahead considers tax specifically ruled context much later , goes ahead announces 's 're looking \? president concerned sort thing \? mr stephanopoulos think president 's concern make sure gets best health care proposal possible 's concerned making sure thorough process examining possible alternatives , different alternatives decision made go forward something like 's certainly something president explain justify decision made along lines q mean exactly , though , president rules something \? mean get back table later persuasive argument made \? mr stephanopoulos 's 's true , time , ruled made proposal q makes open n't open \? mr stephanopoulos 's certainly willing listen argument q willing listen argument short term tax year , n't willing listen \? 's open mr stephanopoulos context comments something wanted clear something proposing , something floating q something considering words 's something 's consideration start considering , 'll tell 're acknowledging , , consideration mr stephanopoulos i'm acknowledging task force studied proposal also stating president made decision q door open president reconsider including part mr stephanopoulos obviously , working groups looking , president made decision q know make presentation behalf vat \? mr stephanopoulos n't know assume n't know stage proposing n't know 're going make conclusion something present know something working groups looking q understand , george , none us asking questions context decision president made , president considering \? mr stephanopoulos understand , acknowledging working groups examined issue vat q president consider \? mr stephanopoulos assume consider argument presented q mean president working groups think president says , means maybe \? \( laughter \) mr stephanopoulos think means working groups trying thorough job possible q george , ask another question bosnia \? mr stephanopoulos sure \( laughter \) q , wants us stay q let 's gays military \( laughter \) q , got swamp q think 've gotten bottom line vat reggie bartholomew , special ambassador belgrade , today said serbs accept agreement worked quote part pursue lifting arms embargo together allies seems go bit 've said mr stephanopoulos sounds almost exactly said q well , accept words , accept reggie mr stephanopoulos well , president said something 's consideration something consider current actions n't bring serbs table q n't kind timetable \? mr stephanopoulos yes , timetable 's going vote u n resolution 10 days q 's sanctions , 's tightening sanctions mr stephanopoulos 's right , 's sanctions believe pressure , hope bring serbs table know , mr bartholomew also met mr russia , also working ways bring serbs table continue pressure many different ways one possible option well q question whether 's timetable consideration vote decision lifting arms embargo , sanctions mr stephanopoulos next vote u n sanctions far know , votes scheduled lifting arms embargo something discussed internally allies q reggie bartholomew tell serbs u would \? point telling \? mr stephanopoulos well , clearly , mean , something 's consideration , something take quite seriously come table know consequences failing come table q given deadline \? q warren christopher saying thing n't seemed change behavior least serbs take heed threat lift arms embargo far everything 's done effect fighting bosnia \? mr stephanopoulos n't accept premise question effect embargo effect q effect \? mr stephanopoulos serbians choose heed warnings , face consequences q effect bosnia \? mr stephanopoulos well , effect serbians , tightened getting shipments brief fully q bosnia , george bosnia effect \? mr stephanopoulos well , 's hard say 's stopped aggression date 're continuing press serbians stop believe time continue weaken serbs effect i'm saying 's going happen overnight clearly n't happened overnight believe time sanctions weaken serbs fails work serbs fail come negotiating table , 'll move forward embargo q n't working deadline , george , 24th date u n scheduled u n vote \? n't united states said , along many nato allies , serbs n't willing sign peace accord , 'll seek n't said seek mr stephanopoulos 've said continually 're going q deadline \? mr stephanopoulos n't specific date , 're going move forward resolution , u n resolution , around time fails take effect , fails bring serbs table , clearly consider actions q n't awfully incremental \? mr stephanopoulos 're taking step step approach 're pressure 're going continue q possibility , george , time incremental steps taken serbs achieved goals 's purpose \? mr stephanopoulos think purpose get serbs stop aggression pursuing goal many different fronts pursuing u n 're pursuing direct talks pursuing tightening sanctions consider lifting arms embargo turning screws serbs continue q efforts unsuccessful getting serbs stop aggression effective campaign serbs give back 've gained \? mean , 're entrenched mr stephanopoulos ca n't speculate 're going continue press come table 're going continue find ways stop aggression ca n't see future q george , stimulus package , house republicans say 're going hold series town meetings saturday try explain details package cite polls show people learn , less like 's strategy counter \? mr stephanopoulos strategy one 're going continue saw , president today pointed real benefits summer jobs program package provide 700 , 000 new summer jobs summer kids inner cities suburbs productive work also going point benefits highway money , investments highways 're going point benefits immunization 're going point benefits head start going say republicans choice take action create jobs perpetuate gridlock last four years q concern , though , house , house republicans well senate \? mr stephanopoulos house republicans voted made mistake 're making mistake q george , strike anybody administration 's bit strong describe , president morning , summer jobs program quote reaffirmation promise america \? mr stephanopoulos think 's promise america give kids chance reach full potential q government funded jobs \? mr stephanopoulos give people chance work \? absolutely promise america q want follow something asked yesterday 700 , 000 summer jobs , figure come \? mr stephanopoulos top look currently 600 , 000 summer jobs pipeline top 600 , 000 , total 1 3 million q 700 , 000 would created stimulus package \? mr stephanopoulos yes q number come \? 've told along stimulus package would create 500 , 000 new jobs according , breaks something like 200 , 000 full time jobs 150 , 000 summer jobs mr stephanopoulos yes , summer 's full time equivalence mean , 700 , 000 individuals receive jobs summer calculate full time job effect , n't know exact formula q seven hundred thousand part time jobs mr stephanopoulos 150 , 000 q one four 's three months mr stephanopoulos thank q follow \? president morning said government money summer jobs pay private kids work private sector \? mr stephanopoulos necessarily mean , think grants available 's one ways pay jobs time , 's also issued challenge private sector hire kids well q tax dollars , instance , would pay kids work time warner \? mr stephanopoulos think time warner actually somebody coming forward actually grant 's going bulk could isolated instances , though , would grants businesses q president spoken senate republicans week \? mr stephanopoulos , 's lot contact senate republicans white house q lower level president n't \? mr stephanopoulos president , q getting closer get votes \? mr stephanopoulos 're continuing work q anybody leaning way \? q haiti , new york times seems reporting something breakthrough aristide 's attitude towards coup leaders confirm change , impact process \? say yesterday report \? mr stephanopoulos brief principals ca n't confirm 's actually happening talks would leave negotiators mr returned haiti received briefing white house ambassador said time time , believe assurances security important final resolution broader political settlement q george , yesterday offered selective breakdowns stimulus would impact states cities get complete breakdown state jobs would impacted \? mr stephanopoulos think states , yes think get q could make generally available \? mr stephanopoulos believe q could component stimulus \? words mr stephanopoulos n't know know summer jobs jobs n't know deeply broken clearly , break summer jobs jobs q follow \? information jeff rest white house using ads states \? mr stephanopoulos n't know 're ads , 're press releases q describe press releases contain \? mr stephanopoulos 're pointing benefits package various states instance , know today senator dole heading vermont new hampshire would point stimulus package , jobs package creates 1 , 000 jobs vermont creates 2 , 000 jobs new hampshire people states remind important q releases going \? mr stephanopoulos go states q \? mr stephanopoulos get 's problem q get \? q n't put well \? mr stephanopoulos think q afternoon \? would possible \? mr stephanopoulos 'll check n't know soon q focusing press releases states moderate pragmatic republican senators \? mr stephanopoulos think 're trying get many 's actually quite difficult pull together 're best 're putting get q closely tracking senator dole 's schedule \? mr stephanopoulos following q press releases going along states 's visiting \? mr stephanopoulos i'm sure think probably press releases going vermont \( laughter \) q man chicken suit waiting \? \( laughter \) q george , president goes business defending 's stimulus package , n't address seems main point , 're funding deficit spending rather 's important , come funding seems republican argument answer \? mr stephanopoulos answer , paying time look budget , pay package time believe right economy needs jump start jobs q 're claiming , , n't add deficit year \? mr stephanopoulos i'm saying 're paying time n't say q know , george mean , beginning , question annual budgets things deficit spending pay year , \? mr stephanopoulos year clearly time budget fully pays program q 're saying savings would cover year future years \? mr stephanopoulos absolutely 's exactly said q know , going outstanding debt , add national debt year mr stephanopoulos , 're reducing deficit 500 billion 514 billion next four years q mean 're reducing would \? mr stephanopoulos exactly q fact , 're adding large amount national debt period mr stephanopoulos 're reducing far would 's true q washington type reduction \( laughter \) q 're getting grumpy old man q george , decision made white house president 's participation gay rights march coming week half \? mr stephanopoulos 're working president 's schedule believe 's going senate democratic retreat jamestown weekend q address phone \? mr stephanopoulos n't know 's little far , believe 's going senate retreat q leaders day two speech \? mr stephanopoulos n't know would expect point would meet leaders groups n't know schedule , though q aids czar appointed prior conjunction event \? mr stephanopoulos i'm sure q april 22nd earth day president going mark , case going sign biodiversity treaty day \? mr stephanopoulos know 's work biodiversity treaty n't know signing day , would expect 'll statement earth day right around q work biodiversity treaty \? mr stephanopoulos 'd check know 's work done , n't know exactly q earth day \? mr stephanopoulos 22nd , think q know going statement earth day n't know 's going statement gay rights march \? mr stephanopoulos said n't know 's going meet 's going meet q statement gay rights march \? mr stephanopoulos n't , actually , would n't surprised , though q details miyazawa visit \? mr stephanopoulos 's working visit friday president looking forward discussing number issues including russian aid japanese stimulus package trade issues two countries q expectations second aid package russia going unveiled g 7 meeting , understand , n't happened 's status \? mr stephanopoulos g 7 meeting still going , know , secretaries bentsen christopher talked outlines possible package 're going continue consult congress g 7 allies q \? make kind announcement two day meeting \? mr stephanopoulos meeting 's yet q 're going make one \? mr stephanopoulos i'm ruling possibility q president 's going announce tomorrow q bentsen said q yes , bentsen said would tomorrow q christopher mr stephanopoulos 'd look , believe likely announcement come tokyo q george , consideration going sending president los angeles \? mr stephanopoulos n't know 's 's something 've ruled n't date set q george , position support immigration 's plan settle 4 , 000 iraqi prisoners united states \? mr stephanopoulos 's first 've heard q george , report today q fortunately \( laughter \) q pace appointments says president clinton behind president bush number positions people nominated going speed pace nominations stand \? mr stephanopoulos filled 814 president 's appointments 's broken 384 schedule c 147 ses 213 pas full time i'm sure means \( laughter \) 70 pa full time 's pace president bush obviously , move along farther , level appointment actually multiplier effect far appointments expect process speed 're pace bush obviously 'd like get done quickly possible would point fbi background checks background check far comprehensive takes time predecessors , part 're working q \? mr stephanopoulos think 's awful big part , yes q story morning , approximately pace bush making appointments , way behind winning mr stephanopoulos 's background checks comes play 's problem q 's background checks problem \? mean , democratic senate mr stephanopoulos , 's make appointments , takes quite bit time fill forms background checks done 's exactly problem q 's president afternoon , 's plan tomorrow \? mr stephanopoulos 's got meetings office meetings afternoon part , variety issues probably half dozen different issues 'll tomorrow 'll event , probably focused stimulus jobs package white house friday miyazawa meeting q releasing tax return tomorrow , george \? mr stephanopoulos either tomorrow friday q going pre briefing regarding japanese prime minister 's visit tomorrow \? mr stephanopoulos n't know tomorrow , 'll probably get something done , usually , visits q reverend jackson morning know \? mr stephanopoulos met group us white house , including mack mclarty q \? q reverend jackson mr stephanopoulos reverend jackson mack mclarty , , gene , bruce reed , jeff watson , mark q talking haiti \? mr stephanopoulos talked general urban policy go los angeles back mississippi , good victory last night 's going los angeles q request meeting \? mr stephanopoulos actually , 's continual contact president written letter variety issues , asked come talk q george , dole tonight vermont guys contact \? mr stephanopoulos think 's contact , sure q tell us contacts \? mr stephanopoulos i'm sure q know contacted said \? mr stephanopoulos know howard talked general talk package q express support , mr stephanopoulos ca n't divulge details conversation , conversations q l times reporting abortion elective abortions likely included basic health care package something president considering \? mr stephanopoulos q along vat \? \( laughter \) mr stephanopoulos 's certainly something 's looked , decisions made q question \? mr stephanopoulos l times story whether abortions covered president 's health plan q president meeting meeting reverend jackson ask advice , solicit advice kind stance white house take wake verdict l \? mr stephanopoulos well , certainly talked situation los angeles long term prospects economic development issues q instance , discuss whether would helpful president go \? mr stephanopoulos well , discussed wide range issues related los angeles certainly one q letting perhaps go way came , need go back bosnia second ask mr stephanopoulos oh , good q reaction margaret thatcher 's comments 're sitting watching massacre mr stephanopoulos well , 've pushing hard number fronts aggressive action continue q tell us 've made progress talks stimulus package getting compromise \? mean , n't feel except talks ongoing talked like 20 people mr stephanopoulos n't know numbers 've talked several people 've wide ranging sessions q anyone leaning way \? mr stephanopoulos ca n't get 're going keep working tuesday press thank end 1 10 p edt 56 04 14
mike gordian com \( michael thomas \) subject good neighbor political hypocrisy test organization gordian costa mesa , ca lines 60 article l95 news iastate edu , jrbeach iastate edu \( jeffry r beach \) writes article 1993apr15 021021 7538 gordian com mike gordian com \( michael thomas \) writes article c5huh1 241 news iastate edu , jrbeach iastate edu \( jeffry r beach \) writes think n't drugs legalized , would lower cost definitely make safer use yes n't think want start using criterion determine legality \? get people \? ! , pray tell , mean \? exactly \? mean people blindly swallow every piece propoganda given \? \( kind , dear \) appeal audience supposed implicitly know understand \? really n't want waste time battle legalization drugs really want , get prove idiotic idea ! read know fuck i'm talking , eager make fool point pretty stupid justify legalizing something safer cheaper pragmatic standpoint , certainly justification vice people commit anyway shall alcohol \? legalization alcohol done anything pragmatic standpoint , 'd happy hear fact n't ideas hold criterion prostitution killing funny farm patients , aids victims , elderly , unemployed , , etc would surely make taxes decrease first one make sense nothing legalize rest case n't made connection \( expect n't \) connecting theme thread persons autonomy life body vice statutes serve make expensive rich dangerous poor , tim eloquently put people , however , take autonomy lives , regardless government says , pray tell , aids victim quotes \? revisionist sort thinks thing aids \? deserve \? michael thomas \( mike gordian com \) n't think bambi eyes get flame thrower hobbes calvin usnail irvine ave santa ana heights , ca , \( 714 \) 850 \( 714 \) 850 \( fax \)
clinton hq campaign92 org \( clinton gore '92 \) subject clinton president 's public schedule 4 15 93 organization project gnu , free software foundation , 675 mass ave , cambridge , 02139 , usa 1 \( 617 \) 876 3296 lines 51 nntp posting host life ai mit edu white house office press secretary immediate release march 14 , 1993 public events schedule thursday , april 15 , 1993 10 20 est president meets leadership law enforcement organizations rose garden open press 3 00 edt president meets national ambassador march birth defects foundation oval office tv pool , open still photo , writing pool 3 15 edt president meets mosaic new york , ny rose garden open photo , writing pool 3 30 edt president meets , pa , high school , aaa state football champions south lawn open photo , writing pool upcoming events schedule april 16 , 1993 president meets japanese prime minister miyazawa , white house april 26 , 1993 president clinton meets president italy , white house 30 30 30
new liberation news service nlns igc apc org subject nlns fascism friendly face nf id n cdp 000 nf cdp uucp ! nlns apr 14 20 42 00 1993 lines 164 new liberation news service nlns subject nlns fascism friendly face written 8 33 pm apr 14 , 1993 nlns igc apc org igc nlns news nlns packet 3 11 4 14 93 fascism friendly face rush limbaugh remind anyone \? , madison edge main difference adolf hitler rush limbaugh hitler original showed initiative mort sahl tom snyder radio show , abc radio network , october 27 , 1992 \( nlns \) believe , planning comparative review mein kampf limbaugh 's transcribed rant , way things ought sahl issued comparative review usual , sahl 's independent sharp effort dream comparing favorably mort 's least fairly popular premise everyone 'd mention idea thought either divinely inspired least past due delivery reactions based parallels obvious peripheral observer acts false prophets noted skills , used passion generate political cult massive numerical proportions \( fact , limbaugh claims audience 12 million , almost identical number votes cast hitler april 1932 german election \) used myopic social perspective build cult , enthusiastically facts record fabricate ideological last point documented passages opening pages books hitler 's example , page 5 , claims german nationalist terrorist leo \( bombed part railway line dusseldorf , caught act , 1923 \) betrayed france representative government never factual foundation statement fact , governments reich , well vatican , actively intervened save execution , almost succeeded limbaugh follows suit making hysterically sarcastic claim introduction school ceremony many public places god unconstitutional course , 's god official imposition particular concepts god individual 's 's unconstitutional limbaugh talent distortion want know course , one would assume , comparing two books , main point would way things ought modern american mein kampf really time first german version mein kampf , hitler four months prison \( june , 1925 \) , trying nazis used book build dozen million followers limbaugh , hand , came book building dozen million twelve million went longer way weimar germany united states thus , accurate parallels would limbaugh 's daily three hour radio show american mein kampf , primary propoganda tool used pump angry volume way things ought actually american triumph , translation fascist message different medium also , printed word important medium weimar germany , since radio still thought impoverished germans medium luxury 1925 today , hand , americans likely spend seconds tune radio dial monetary charge drop 22 304 pages transcripts words , mort sahl also observed radio night , radical right wants limbaugh focal point propoganda \( remember , sahl al haig conservative days \) mort might know exactly rush 's equivalent hess \( book suggests ed , former president abc radio limbaugh 's partner media , radio program 's production company \) mort veteran talk show , hosted new york , washington los angeles knows evil hearts major market media men knows limbaugh could collected audience opportunity placed silver platter handed limbaugh earns money honestly al capone 's almost worthy rico indictment questions social issues , material limbaugh book seems echo hitler 's venom example qualifications control society hitler host sometimes millions people , individually less clearly distinctly guess truth , partly perhaps understand , one man author 's emphasis must step forward order form , force , world imagination great masses , granite principles , take fight sole correctness , playing waves free world thought rock uniform combination form arises \( page 577 \) limbaugh needs media 've got \? show devoted exclusively think phrase half brain tied behind back make even denotes egress mental aptitude require engage demolish liberals others disagree might take four five years , i'm convinced media slowly reluctantly come around way thinking , kicking screaming way \( pages 266 , 21 , 299 273 , respectively \) religion basis nation hitler world human culture civilization bound existence aryan dying decline would lower upon earth dark time without culture dares lay hand upon highest image lord sins benevolent creator miracle helps expulsion paradise \( page 581 \) limbaugh america founded judeo christian country intellectual political elites often either hostile toward religion people belief god best charming superstition managed ban prayer public schools last thirty years coincidence quality american education declined ever since \? \( pages 274 5 \) popular culture reason social collapse hitler fight poisoning soul set one look menus movie houses , one hardly deny right kind food theatre , art , literature , movies , press , window displays must cleaned symptoms world put service moral idea state culture \( pages 346 348 \) limbaugh today , hollywood trouble reason hollywood forgotten audience make fun people believe god ridicule traditional family , heterosexuality american heroes \( page 254 \) news hitler activity called liberal press work german people german reich one pass silence marxist papers lies 's task break people 's national spine , order make ripe yoke slavery international capital masters , jews \( page 331 \) limbaugh elements media jumped bandwagon leftist causes cynical journalist past replaced many cases enthusiastic causes gulf war , cnn correspondent bernard shaw said cnn global network ca n't take sides cant take sides \? ! n't realize freedom lies united states america therefore defend nation , hopelessly misguided , may suggest , \( pages 270 268 \) continue comparative excerpts certainly possible , ultimately depressing take one reading putting books , one undeniable fact 1920s , adolf hitler fed depressed frightened germans opiate hatred around turn , allowed germans hand collective national power nazis 1990s , rush limbaugh thing distributing hatred depressed frightened americans turn , helping american radical right maintain power base 12 year nightmare reagan bush era comes end , hoping rebuild hopes fascist states america limbaugh repellant hitler , radical right utilizes limbaugh gateway opiate one wonder ultimate drug plan hook america madison edge reached po box 845 , madison , wi \( 608 \) 255 30
kaldis romulus rutgers edu \( theodore kaldis \) subject la burning yet \? organization rutgers univ , new brunswick , n j lines 18 article master cna tek com mikeq freddy cna tek com writes hear jury reached verdict hear \? seem missed la burning yet \? l burn \? \( regardless verdict \) i'm near radio count blessings views expressed herein theodore kaldis seriously kaldis remus rutgers edu believe major university ! rutgers ! remus rutgers edu ! kaldis would hold views \? \? \?
clinton hq campaign92 org \( clinton gore '92 \) subject clinton war powers resolution bosnia 4 14 93 organization project gnu , free software foundation , 675 mass ave , cambridge , 02139 , usa 1 \( 617 \) 876 3296 lines 102 nntp posting host life ai mit edu white house office press secretary immediate release april 14 , 1993 text letter president speaker house representatives president pro senate april 13 , 1993 dear mr speaker \( dear mr president \) part continuing effort keep congress fully informed , providing report , consistent section 4 war powers resolution , advise actions ordered support united nations efforts bosnia herzegovina beginning u n security council resolution 713 september 25 , 1991 , united nations actively addressing crisis former yugoslavia security council acted resolution 781 establish ban unauthorized military flights bosnia herzegovina , however , blatant violations ban , villages bosnia bombed response violations , security council decided , resolution 816 march 31 , 1993 , extend ban unauthorized flights bosnia herzegovina authorize member states , acting nationally regional organi , take necessary measures ensure compliance nato 's north atlantic council \( nac \) agreed provide nato air enforcement fly zone u n secretary general notified nato 's decision proceed operation deny flight , activation order delivered participating allies united states actively supported decisions direction , joint chiefs staff sent execute order u forces participating nato force , conduct phased air operations prevent flights authorized united nations bosnia herzegovina u forces initially assigned operation consist 13 f 15 12 f fighter aircraft supporting aircraft aircraft commenced enforcement operations 8 00 e april 12 , 1993 fighter aircraft equipped combat accomplish mission self defense nato positioned forces established combat air patrol \( cap \) stations within control airborne early warning \( aew \) aircraft u cap aircraft normally operate bases italy aircraft carrier adriatic sea unauthorized aircraft entering approaching fly zone identified , interrogated , intercepted , monitored , turned away \( order \) steps result compliance fly zone , aircraft may engaged basis proper authorization nato military authorities accordance approved \( \) 2 rules engagement , although expect action necessary commander \( united nations protection force currently operating bosnia herzegovina \) consulted ensure concerns force fully considered rules engagement approved possible predict time long operations necessary directed u armed forces participate operations pursuant constitutional authority commander chief grateful con support congress given effort , look forward continued cooperation move forward toward attainment goals region sincerely , william j clinton
dave alex uchicago edu \( dave griffith \) subject temper tantrums 1960 's organization university chicago distribution usa lines 14 article 1993apr14 pony ingres com garrett ingres com writes article netcom com , phil netcom com \( phil ronzone \) writes along normalized relations prc relations cambodia \? must joking sponsored overthrow government repeated failed attempts course prc people 's republic china ! cambodia go play dave griffith , information resources , university chicago , department surgery dave alex bsd uchicago edu brain damage chromosome damage
jviv usmi01 midland chevron com \( john viveiros \) subject , disaster distribution na organization chevron lines 31 article netcom com phil netcom com \( phil ronzone \) writes apparently another member religious left show environmental disasters n't natural disasters individually far outweigh man made ones called disasters \( love canal , times beach , tmi \) n't disasters look , want worship trees \( whatever \) , fine , try push religious onto want see environmental disasters , go eastern europe parts fsu \( former soviet union \) environmental protection laws trying increase productivity expense justify political systems luckily us , politicians vision passed environmental laws n't say n't modified , ever hear environmental laws dreamed bunch left wing tree intent putting us back horseback yes , , lot us simply want caution john viveiros \( jviv chevron com \) chevron usa standard disclaimer applies midland tx netnews chevron com said news good news \?
steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) subject limiting govt \( employment \( concentrate \) summary restrain unpleasant impulses \? organization free barbers , inc lines 46 nntp posting host thor isc br com article slagle sgi417 msd lmsc lockheed com slagle lmsc lockheed com writes article 1993apr13 isc br isc br com , steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) writes article 1993apr13 1058 cbnewse cb att com doctor1 cbnewse cb att com \( patrick b \) writes point law protects one established car dealers people enough money start fairly big operation protecting folks competition protects rest us low prices high quality excellent point seem missing subtle point government recipient displeasure , established business interests influence direct government action case government preventing entry market desire running established businesses prevent restrict entry competitors understandable , though generally unpleasant , human failing without means act desire , without government sufficient power restrict options potential competitor , anti competitive desire remains unpleasant wish government , seek n't get shaft , mark , n't specify means government prevented becoming tool business interests left wing , big government , conventional liberal , i'm willing vote anti competitive regulations favor auto dealers hear libertarians desire limit terms , weaken government eliminating power enforce antitrust laws , desire eliminate legislator 's pay strikes particularly ineffective way insure auto dealers special interests cannot influence public policy fact , seem clearly designed accomplish opposite jsh mark steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing data , sure cut uucp ! uunet ! isc br ! thor ! steveh bulls r hofferbert bell 509 838 8826
carlos beowulf jpl nasa gov \( carlos carrion \) subject role national news media inflaming passions organization jet propulsion laboratory , pasadena , ca lines 20 distribution ca nntp posting host beowulf jpl nasa gov article optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes i'm sick continual effort passions americans playing every trial completely sexist , racist , gay bashing , realities seldom simple happens society becomes tied ideologies come conclusion tv stations la want riot happen verdict comes subtle way preparing audience worst even going far want something happen viewers commercials ready anything watch us messages carlos much man favor superior position assigned white race abraham lincoln ames ! elroy ! jpl devvax ! beowulf ! carlos
paul hsh com \( paul havemann \) subject gore throws first ball media coverage distribution usa organization hsh associates lines 30 article 1993apr13 hemlock cray com , rja mahogany126 cray com \( russ anderson \) writes article 849 ncratl atlantaga ncr com , mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com \( mark wilson \) writes past thursday vp gore threw first ball home opener atlanta braves according news reports quite loudly booed \( , dr norman , typical beer red necks \) personally would n't paid attention incident except evening news describing event , went comment booed nothing unusual since normal audiences boo point since delaying start game bunch crock never heard incident thrower ceremonial ball booed dan quayle got booed last year \( listening radio \) game quayle told brewers players would like see play orioles alcs 's come , \? defending al gore comparing dan quayle \? 'd say says back pit ye , back alt fan dan quayle ! ! paul havemann \( internet paul hsh com \) 're opinions 're caffeine brain ! \( 50 milligrams per cynical observation \) recommended minimum daily requirement 1 , 000 mg keep reading
paul hsh com \( paul havemann \) subject clinton president nominate carter nuclear security post organization hsh associates lines 28 article life ai mit edu , clinton hq campaign92 org \( clinton gore '92 \) writes white house office president immediate release april 13 , 1993 president nominate carter nuclear security , , ! bill , please , n't nominate anyone q ! jimmy always used drive everyone nuts ! n't let amy anywhere near ! \( washington , dc \) president announced today intends nominate ashton carter , director harvard 's center science international affairs , assistant secretary defense nuclear security counter proliferation voice never mind paul havemann \( internet paul hsh com \) 're opinions 're caffeine brain ! \( 50 milligrams per cynical observation \) recommended minimum daily requirement 1 , 000 mg keep reading
sys1 exnet co uk \( xavier gallagher \) subject employment \( concentrate child molesters \? organization exnet systems ltd public access news , london , uk lines 28 article cg3 ncratl atlantaga ncr com mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com \( mark wilson \) writes exnet co uk sys1 exnet co uk \( xavier gallagher \) writes disagree take logic far enough true , man invent need food , shelter , warmth ilk , man invent property laws laws trespass guess xavier never heard animals many animals , especially stake territory chase members species tries invade territory yes , ! n't case single lion ruling land south africa egypt across \? memory serves correctly enough game feed 100 , 000 lions would n't let lions hunt wanted died heart attack brought overweight good thing designs europe , america \( north south \) , falkland islands mark wilson atlantaga ncr com xavier
cs ualberta ca \( eric william \) subject af red army fraction \( \) communique nntp posting host cs ualberta ca organization university alberta , edmonton canada lines 19 article ncoast org , cmort ncoast org \( christopher morton \) writes quoted dscomsa desy de hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) n't wonderfull way people make sadistic murder gang sound like altruism \? gee phil , 'd remember people monitoring net 'd also remember much sense humor ed damn n't big brother \? time thought revolutionaries , blowing things killing odd innocent person process , really love us \( 'cause everybody knows materialism save even get killed first \) fool 've
steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) subject limiting govt \( employment \( concentrate \) summary response paul schmidt organization free barbers , inc lines 64 nntp posting host thor isc br com article 1993apr15 tijc02 uucp pjs269 tijc02 uucp \( paul schmidt \) writes steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) writes noted another thread \( limiting govt \) , problem libertarians face insuring limited government seek become tool private interests pursue agenda believe , liberals frequently opposed anti competitive measures conservatives n't believe , however , competition necessarily protected actions business interests free market , example cite , liberals pressed regulations , good staunch conservative businessmen adam smith eloquently demonstrated , free market something capitalists seek protect profit elimination point made marx point agreement two theorists tell us something want government become tool private interests limited government cannot insure private interests use government agenda agreed failure libertarianism fact utopia option single system everything perfect failure libertarianism ideology provide reasonable way restrain actions utopian dreams marxism fails specify pure communism achieved state wither away , libertarians frequently fail show weakening power state result improvement human condition wise look best solution compare countries see ones people would rather live , ones less starvation , hunger , poverty , misery , find government countries alot poverty , misery suffering , government cannot insure anything , sure better alternative \( big government \) strawman argument fails several grounds case , limited big government defined would point lebanon , somalia , former yugoslavia definitions nations limited government , us , canada , nations western europe \( people would rather live \) often pointed nations big government libertarian point view argument want limited government want unlimited government believe government regulation capitalist economy serves worthwhile ends believe regulation neither desirable empirical grounds justifiable ideological grounds jsh paul schmidt advocates self government , davy crockett chapter president steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing data , sure cut uucp ! uunet ! isc br ! thor ! steveh bulls r hofferbert bell 509 838 8826
dak988s vma smsu edu subject good neighbor political hypocrisy test organization southwest mo state univ lines 32 nntp posting host vma smsu edu x newsreader nnr vm 1 3 2 article 1993apr15 021021 7538 gordian com mike gordian com \( michael thomas \) writes article c5huh1 241 news iastate edu , jrbeach iastate edu \( jeffry r beach \) writes think n't drugs legalized , would lower cost definitely make safer use yes n't think want start using criterion determine legality \? get people \? ! really n't want waste time battle legalization drugs really want , get prove idiotic idea ! think bad good ol' southwest missouri state u , 2 parties running student body president 's token fraternity faces , 's president vice president handing condoms listing qualifications , listen really well makes sick party established many things ruining country like think 'll run next year \( darin j , dak988s vma smsu edu pc idea splinter groups way go
donb igor tamri com \( baldwin \) subject good neighbor political hypocrisy test organization toshiba america mri , south san francisco , ca lines 24 article c5huh1 241 news iastate edu jrbeach iastate edu \( jeffry r beach \) writes would upset , although abortions would continue , would lot expensive rich , lot less safe poor things supposed legal keep cost safety factor high \? \? case victimless crimes yes , think think rob beat rape kill someone , 's clear anyone sociopath 've done something immoral hand , smoke grass sex consenting adult manner illegal state , morality immorality act merely lifestyle choice clearly hurt anyone else imo , act hurt another person interfered think n't drugs legalized , would lower cost definitely make safer use think n't use drugs , outside legal ones \( alcohol coffee \)
jason ab20 larc nasa gov \( jason austin \) subject polls \( top ten excuses slick willie 's record setting disapproval rati \) organization nasa langley research center , hampton , va lines 37 reply jason c austin j c austin larc nasa gov nntp posting host ab20 larc nasa gov reply libwca emory edu 's message 14 apr 93 20 31 09 gmt article emoryu1 cc emory edu libwca emory edu \( bill anderson \) writes according key reason clinton 's low approval rating people angry moving fast enough gays military burst laughing heard planet cnn people live anyway \? jason c austin j c austin larc nasa gov dunno , man sounds pretty damned unlikely , , although 's certainly one reasons i'm pissed maybe sample taken entirely fellow cultural elite \? jason , quote poll questions \? thanks , bill v 've never seen cnn give poll questions air sent letter asking , might get 's guess part session might look question approve clinton 's performance \? answer questions disapprove due gays military issue \? answer yes conclusion clinton low approval rating 's moving fast enough gays military think group truly dedicated reporting news would use manufactured news like polls jason
irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \( brent irvine \) subject stop former beloved damn ferigner 's taken organization university illinois urbana champaign lines 31 article reg triumf ca vincent reg triumf ca \( pete \) writes article news cso uiuc edu , irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \( brent irvine \) writes ` ` 54 40 fight territorial dispute ` british canada , old stuff uh , quite 54 boundary dispute still unresolved , canadian us coast guard vessels regularly infrequently 's fish boats disputed waters dixon entrance reason n't hear 's neither country 's interest aggravate quarrel n't mean either country prepared back , especially local political representatives whose constituents fishermen fishing rights disputed 2 nations , matter friendly , always fishing disputes getting 54 fight slogan old stuff dealing land dispute one saying 54 fight fishing rights territorial dispute oregon territory \( called \) long resolved fishing rights small potatoes personal opinions \? , brent irvine yes think irvine uxh cso uiuc edu \?
demon desire wright edu \( boomer \) subject state justice organization acme products lines 23 summary gm 's quest justice judge denied gm 's new trial motion , even though gm says two new witnesses said occupant truck dead impact , fire thoughts \? 's kind scary realize judges going start denying new trials even new evidence contradicts facts led previous ruling appear judge decided new witnesses believed \? n't jury \? members previous jury parading talk shows proclaiming obvious bias gm \? n't enough judge old verdict call new trial \? whatever happened jurors objective \? brett 's nothing passionate vested interest disguised intellectual conviction sean o'casey white plague frank herbert
steveth netcom com \( steve thomas \) subject good neighbor political hypocrisy test organization , san francisco , ca lines 53 article l95 news iastate edu jrbeach iastate edu \( jeffry r beach \) writes article 1993apr15 021021 7538 gordian com mike gordian com \( michael thomas \) writes article c5huh1 241 news iastate edu , jrbeach iastate edu \( jeffry r beach \) writes article elroy jpl nasa gov fogarty sir c jpl nasa gov \( tim fogarty \) writes would upset , although abortions would continue , would lot expensive rich , lot less safe poor things supposed legal keep cost safety factor high \? \? think n't drugs legalized , would lower cost definitely make safer use yes n't think want start using criterion determine legality \? get people \? ! really n't want waste time battle legalization drugs really want , get prove idiotic idea ! go yet see anybody justify prohibition drugs ensuing war drugs world politics usenet , crazy anybody gives matter thought beyond reading headlines cannot justify atrocity , war individual rights try justify war drugs , dare ! point pretty stupid justify legalizing something safer cheaper , chorus stupid \? ideas hold criterion prostitution killing funny farm patients , aids victims , elderly , unemployed , , etc would surely make taxes decrease paragraph gibberish make steve thomas steveth com
tfarrell lynx dac northeastern edu \( thomas farrell \) subject nc vs hunt \( marine gay bashing wilmington nc \) verdict article lynx 1993apr15 organization northeastern university , boston , 02115 , usa lines 10 article cpa ncratl atlantaga ncr com mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com \( mark wilson \) writes feel defendents convicted regardless evidence would truely sad day civil rights n't know everybody else , , convicted evidence , mind quite sufficient tom
rcollins ns encore com \( roger collins \) subject limiting govt \( employment \( concentrate \) reply rcollins encore com organization encore computer corporation nntp posting host sysgem1 encore com lines 46 article 1993apr15 isc br isc br com , steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) writes article slagle sgi417 msd lmsc lockheed com slagle lmsc lockheed com writes government preventing entry market desire running established businesses prevent restrict entry competitors understandable , though generally unpleasant , human failing without means act desire , without government sufficient power restrict options potential competitor , anti competitive desire remains unpleasant wish government , seek n't get shaft , mark , n't specify means government prevented becoming tool business interests left wing , big government , conventional liberal , i'm willing vote anti competitive regulations favor auto dealers hear libertarians desire limit terms , weaken government eliminating power enforce antitrust laws , desire eliminate legislator 's pay strikes particularly ineffective way insure auto dealers special interests cannot influence public policy fact , seem clearly designed accomplish opposite similar saying clinton 's summit little fix health care problem look whole picture , randomly picked libertarian positions government allowed use non initiated force achieve goals , special interest influence government use non initiated force behalf means reaching restricted government another topic 'll address briefly certainly wo n't happen libertarianism dominate philosophy means make libertarianism dominate philosophy \? statists run education monopoly , creative advocates self government reports 85 seminar 1 participants embrace libertarianism 's best means 've seen yet lobby compulsory seminar 1 attendance \) jest ! roger collins 's amazing governments around world try every aspect government control , final last resort everything else fails , try individual liberty andre , libertarian candidate president '92
gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) subject national sales tax , movie nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) organization phds hall lines 36 iastate edu \( aaron \) writes 's question , instead true vat , federal government imposed sales tax say 2 3 \? tax would paid retail sales \( thus building levels production costs passed consumers anyway \) , would go reducing deficit \( know would never happen , seems lot vat \) canada 's gst collected sales tax considered vat , previous hidden wholesale tax replaces never referred tax \( , people never paid mind , thus uproar brought front gst one party actually hiding tax \) stated intent tories use gst write deficit unfortunately , legislation n't include mechanism collected funds manner money sitting escrow n't know involved releasing funds , one tories fiscal conservatives though taxing spending , 've made moves apply breaks runaway locomotive end time end second term \( 9 years \) chances getting third term , catching polls moderate slightly pro business rivals , liberals \( euro uk \) , heir apparent leaders' mantle termed clone hillary clinton gld je souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go ! ! ! gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
jfh rpp386 \( john f haugh ii \) subject representation territories \? \( 11 , 250 , 000 , 000 , 000 lunch \) reply jfh rpp386 cactus org \( john f haugh ii \) organization river parishes programming , austin tx distribution tx lines 17 article keys lonestar org cwinemil keys lonestar org \( chris \) writes anyone knowledge handled past , louisiana territory northwest territory \? areas became states puerto rico population needed become state ethnic mix puerto rico probably never become state say cut loose n't want become state , n't continue subsidize existence john f haugh ii pgp 2 1 ! 's ! cs utexas edu ! rpp386 ! jfh bell \( 512 \) 251 dof 17 's jfh rpp386 cactus org look scheme good dictionary picture joe liberal handout right next stop federal spending cut deficit
dsh eceyv ncsu edu \( doug holtsinger \) subject pro abortion feminist leader endorses trashing free speech rights organization ncsu lines 71 article panix com panix com \( gordon \) writes dsh eceyv ncsu edu \( doug holtsinger \) writes 51 arrested defying judge 's order abortion protest rally miami herald , april 11 , 1993 circuit judge robert 's order prohibits anti abortion within 36 feet property line aware woman center choice even across street , may display pictures dead fetuses sing chant loud enough heard patients inside clinic several years ago , justice william douglas , libertarian get free speech similar issues , wrote majority opinion supreme court turned appeal group people prohibited demonstrating front landlord 's home cite case \? n't give enough information able compare two situations demonstrators blaring loud rock music landlord 's home day night , could see opinion would justified court order prohibited abortion protesters displaying pictures dead fetuses , n't disrupt privacy anyone inside clinic pointed people right free speech , perhaps privacy homes , public property korean grocery store owner new york city right free speech protesters outside store \? patrons inside store could hear protesters asking consider shopping different abortion protesters asking women consider getting abortion clinic \? harassment goes beyond expression direct attack particular persons , case workers clients clinic purpose clearly convey information express opinion , intimidate harm others even speech could considered harassment \( \) , hate speech laws generally struck courts n't see words n't kill could considered harassment anti abortionists lost battle public opinion , among turned harassment , arson , bombing murder carry war reason restrain protect ordinary civil rights everyone else protesters arrested simply praying quietly public sidewalk yeah , could see might equivalent bombing murder uh huh let us know get grip reality \) \( gordon \) \( panix com \) \( \( 1238 grn sta , ny ny 718 273 \) doug holtsinger
nyx cs du edu \( uncle fester \) subject new study gay percentage x disclaimer nyx public access unix system run university denver denver community university neither control responsibility opinions users organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept lines 23 article apr 17 06 54 41 1993 romulus rutgers edu kaldis rutgers edu \( theodore kaldis \) writes join pythagorean reform church ! repent evil irrational numbers bean eating ways accept 10 heart ! call pythagorean reform church bbs 508 793 9568 smacks bigotry really \? said eating eating , \? suppose accept 10 anti octal bigotry \? geez , pc get ! \? uncle fester god wants god wants god gets god wants god help us god wants politics nyx cs du edu god wants good laugh
woody cco caltech edu \( william edward woody \) subject top ten signs 's age aquarius pennsylvania avenue organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 93 nntp posting host alumni caltech edu article minerva cis yale edu chaudhary amar yale edu \( amar chaudhary \) writes 6 hey , think beaded curtains add lovely 60 's esque touch ! ! run ! run lives ! 5 look , canada , europe , japan manage provide health care citizens \( , yes , basic health human right people entitled \) nations n't capitalist enough , guess 've found something better capitalism ! nothing sacred capitalist system , something , socialism anything else , works better , say let capitalism die process systematically dismantling health care systems key components \? 4 make love , war ! hold gun wife , would respond way \? n't think age aquarius may hit white house , age peace love harmony n't hit south central la hit former yugoslavia long people world would rather see dead thrive , want protection police force keep peace make love without shot 3 contrary popular belief , possible male feminist time discriminate deny equal opportunity majority population plain wrong , trying force sort tradition role even worse women certainly much offer world men , day gender discrimination finally broken going make revolutions past centuries seem like reform bills look forward ultimate statement equal rights \( something many forgotten \) care either man woman , care black white , care gay straight say care color , race , gender sexual preference , truly right track keep shoving differences face expect us get along \? get real ! long try make care black , female , whatever , going continue balk 's natural human behaviour moment employers searching employees , banks looking lend money , administration looking say care color , race , gender , sexual preferences instead treat human , crap like last year 's riots continue happen 1 hey man , rules ! ! barf mean economic theorists say things like sake convenience mathematical modeling first assume wealth creation get crack implementing phd thesis real life \? go back textbooks theory look first chapter book , introducing field theory right chapter 1 , section 1 , statement like following difficult predict model wealth creation , especially economy wealth creation inherently province individuals create new inventions discover new ideas , assume rest book wealth creation assume lack creation real world , however mathematical modeling inherently unpredictable subject impossible even though assume wealth creation , believe mathematical economic modeling assumption reasonably valid allows us make predictions tested guys running store clinton company assuming wealth creation exists \( borrowing idea 's guide \) advanced think simple things , would rather engineer years experience building bridges design next bridge , rather theoretical physicists freshly minted phd experience job bill woody normally n't post \( even read postings \) newsgroup would like reply message want see reply , guess reply directly
phil netcom com \( phil ronzone \) subject rational viewpoint new study gay percentage organization generally favor , mostly random lines 27 article darkstar ucsc edu stephen orchid ucsc edu \( \) writes difficult young person develop build positive view themself constantly told implicitly explicitly wrong immoral yes , certainly true however , reflects value less position important anything else positive view one 's self course , foolish mass murderer , pedophile , 10 year old positive view \? course person engages behaviour large number people condemn , believe concept society , choice expect person negative view actually people still believe love canal kind environmental disaster weird , eh \? opinions mine , ca n't 'em ! \( 'll rent 'em cheap \)
gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) subject getting early start ! nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) organization phds hall lines 61 patrick eecs nwu edu writes jury making announcement 7 00 saturday morning pacific time 10 00 eastern time ungodly hour \? maybe making announcement 7 00 west coast , figure rioters asleep , giving troops time move place since actual verdicts known authorities , smart allow friday night fighting \( sorry , \) seal morning also , allows maximum daylight wear frustrate potential , well give preparation time guess look forward weekend rioting , eh \? local news intern \? \( mayor los angeles , press conference 3 00 saturday morning , actually , 8 pm 'cos shown live 11 pm news cut cnn 's 11 o'clock sports \( sorry , n't watch devils islanders game ! sportschannel \) meanwhile , following announcement jury 's verdict , judge , jury assorted court personnel evacuated building via helicopters landing roof courthouse ca n't even walk front door heads held high la 's , n't recall detail 'll comment wo n't rioters surprise waiting wake later today ! net contact l tells alert remain weekend , elements may find excuse guilty verdicts three five charges \( aiding \) seem balance fact rodney king kind angel night , speeding fleeing et al however another consideration street celebrations two convictions excessive force charges \( , powell overreacting guilty heck even view cops interviewed \) might get hand \) also , elements may take excuse challenge cops \( dumb move , obviously \) , koreans still scared certain people really mad armed last year commander , long island questioned people would handled rodney king , said 'd let roll around dirt 'til got tired , gld je souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go ! ! ! gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
phil netcom com \( phil ronzone \) subject temper tantrums 1960 's organization generally favor , mostly random distribution usa lines 21 article 1993apr17 pony ingres com garrett ingres com writes see total ignorant asshole well 's sign small mind use filthy language ca n't articulate point oh , , case 've noticed conveniently edited stupid comment prc stands cambodia 're arguing vietnam war cambodia , toss like \( along \) , ignorant asshole oh , even vietnamese agree far damage cambodia ever actually people still believe love canal kind environmental disaster weird , eh \? opinions mine , ca n't 'em ! \( 'll rent 'em cheap \)
phil netcom com \( phil ronzone \) subject new study gay percentage organization generally favor , mostly random lines 20 article 1993apr17 news cs brandeis edu st923336 pip cc brandeis edu writes seems conservatives putting lot effort showing 10 figure , really n't make difference like said , cares many \? would fact 're 1 population justify discrimination \? n't think uh , well , gee whiz let see , new president , first big policy act tries force homosexuals \( acceptance thereof \) military , despite polls showing consistent 75 , minority 1 , well , gee , sure think tells something fascist politics practiced actually people still believe love canal kind environmental disaster weird , eh \? opinions mine , ca n't 'em ! \( 'll rent 'em cheap \)
phil netcom com \( phil ronzone \) subject mr cramer 's organization generally favor , mostly random lines 43 article 1993apr17 sun0 urz uni heidelberg de gsmith lauren iwr uni heidelberg de \( gene w smith \) writes article ms3 netcom com phil netcom com \( phil ronzone \) writes libertarians want state lives nambla members want fuck little boys get \? see ! libertarians want right fuck little children either sex , want make sure everyone else right nambla wants right fuck little boys secret member nambla \? 're one suddenly seems defending right fuck children many little girls raped today , phil \? wanting abolish age consent , respectable anyone hmm , still n't get , i'm posting university hue cry raised jewish physics tell , committed anti semitic acts today \? kind boots wear \? still libertarians want state lives parents capable protecting children pedophiles , , btw , still n't , , member nambla \? actually people still believe love canal kind environmental disaster weird , eh \? opinions mine , ca n't 'em ! \( 'll rent 'em cheap \)
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject national sales tax , movie organization university toronto chemistry department lines 27 article geb news iastate edu iastate edu \( aaron \) writes vat done way state local sales taxes done , nothing sticker ringing purchase \( gum , gas , car , etc \) hit button add another 5 top state local sales taxes \( wo n't include vat previous levels sales \) need include vat previous levels vat difference tax vat x , amount tax government receives levels x purchase price end consumer levels , difference vat paid vat received government 's question , instead true vat , federal government imposed sales tax say 2 3 \? tax would paid retail sales \( thus building levels production costs passed consumers anyway \) , would go reducing deficit \( know would never happen , seems lot vat \) vat infinitely preferable retail sails tax gerald
organization city university new york f36si cunyvm bitnet subject illegal war lines 5 operation going somalia peacekeeping operation force may used war also legal international law , higher us law operation occuring united nations ca n't get higher authority earth
organization city university new york f36si cunyvm bitnet subject karadzic bosnia peace plan lines 2 anyone think judge would karadzic trial \? \( happen , thought \)
organization city university new york f36si cunyvm bitnet subject recent u n members \? lines 4 179 czech republic 180 republic slovakia admitted early year also recently admitted also san marino within last 12 months incredible passes nation sta state nowadays
organization city university new york f36si cunyvm bitnet subject united nations busy lines 4 chapter 7 operation almost chapter 7 cambodia yugo 'bout time un started using force make peace happen hopefully , soon world economics
organization city university new york f36si cunyvm bitnet subject model united nations lines 3 observed national model united nations nyc one word peace , matt
thf2 kimbark uchicago edu \( ted frank \) subject kyle k rodney king reply thf2 midway uchicago edu organization university chicago distribution usa lines 12 article c5lp0y fdk news cso uiuc edu kkopp uxh cso uiuc edu \( koppenhoefer kyle cramm \) writes fact bunch cops putting lives line day day afraid hell large black guy took large amount punishment refused submit \? i'm curious think particular adjective important ted frank thf2 kimbark uchicago edu i'm sorry , card says moops u c law school standard disclaimers
hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) subject lessons nazis david irving fraud lines 112 reply hallam zeus02 desy de organization desydeutsches elektronen synchrotron , experiment zeus bei hera responding post considered issues far outside scope revisionism principally considered political implications racist ideology inevitable outcome thus tangentially relevant soc history alt revisionism directed followups p since principally consideration political lessons drawn history nazi party deal article 1993apr14 oneb almanac bc ca , kmcvay oneb almanac bc ca \( ken mcvay \) writes points , holocaust historians , \( harvard university press , 34 38 \) reached david irving 's hitler 's war 34 amateur historian , whose reputation german apologist writer without regard accuracy truth measure , 35 irving produced 926 page work intended show hitler kind animals secretaries , probably weakest leader germany known century , murder jews even wish , murder committed behind back , without knowledge consent let us assume sake argument indeed case \? mean would way less guilty mass murder rather participated active ardent supporter \? one important things realise nazis system far evil single member created nazi party murder machine would inevitably commit genocide , noone within strong enough prevent remember hitler lead nazi party particularly powerful within allowed party come power hitler upon expectations created within ranks supporters would replaced replaced old guard unable grasp intellectual implications rhetoric parties espouse nazi style race supremacy ideologies must considered dangerous evil nazis idea one race people inherently superior another greatest goal humanity achieve racial perfection one logical outcome , gas chambers auschwitz nazi party simply tale evil single man lead entire country astray , beyond evil individuals evil system self generating self perpetuating hitler evil person built party arround ego cult centered demonstration power , however mean entirely free political constraints propagandists worked hard assert myth racism produce strong government cure nations must emphatically rejected way must accept distinction demonstrates strength one able govern decisively manner best would accept latter strong government since displays strength made necessary essential weakness important understand nazis stupid amoral sense lacked moral acted manner spanish inquisition murder torture cause morality fault nazis lies axioms , logic implementation axioms thus parties national front david klux klan front assert truth axioms must considered , advocates system would commit genocide conclusion hitler responsible evil inescapable historical record important though let conclusion reached nazis espoused set ideas basically correct unfortunate proponent evils concept race supremacy primary although excuse individual nevertheless secondary matter promises made racist , party upon election promises broken soon circumstances permit requires replacement leaders originally made , occur hatred supreme also creates dynamic government allow reign many government politics method providing justification existence demonstration importance rhetoric hatred inevitably develops question action since continued existence object hatred inevitably reminder essential impotence politician thus us raid tripoli little purpose beyond demonstration power important realise quantum jump politics right right progression reinforcement popular action taken basis way left trace route despotism assertion individual ideology important though attempting understand dynamics political systems used excuse participants leaders nation take supreme moral burden voluntarily required thus take task without fundamental examination logical progression ones set axioms conclusion moral crime furthermore taking duty one obliged put interest whole personal concerns , even personal security although inevitable party nazis , based upon hatred symbols power commit genocide inevitable succeeded member system ability create change within possibility changing dynamic individual cannot hope control system mean accepting individual cannot affect system phill hallam baker phill hallam baker
csugrad cs vt edu \( b \) subject turkish turgut ozal passed away organization virginia tech computer science dept , blacksburg , va lines 6 nntp posting host csugrad cs vt edu turkish president ozal passed away today heart attack ankara 11 00 gmt mr ozal 66 years old csugrad cs vt edu
thf2 kimbark uchicago edu \( ted frank \) subject swimming pool defense reply thf2 midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 17 article dasmith husc harvard edu dasmith husc8 harvard edu \( david smith \) writes granted , simple fact holding job improve kids' chances getting another job future , inner city kid would want hold one minimum wage job much money made dealing drugs \? suburban kid would want hold minimum wage job much money made dealing drugs \? yet , somehow , kids hold minimum wage jobs inner city kids , give chance reason think inner city kids incapable legitimate work \? ted frank thf2 kimbark uchicago edu i'm sorry , card says moops u c law school standard disclaimers
roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) subject getting early start ! nntp posting host chopin udel edu organization university delaware lines 60 article 04 17 eecs nwu edu eecs nwu edu writes jury making announcement 7 00 saturday morning pacific time 10 00 eastern time ungodly hour \? guess news government wanted hear either police officers found innocent week , jury hung neither good news government 's point view , needed los angeles wrong accounts maybe making announcement 7 00 west coast , figure rioters asleep , giving troops time move place one participate riot , unlikely happen , people l likely gotten early listen court announcement guess look forward weekend rioting , eh \? sorry disappoint , seems unlikely mayor los angeles , press conference 3 00 saturday morning , announcing jury would give verdict later morning \( hour away write \) would say verdict , think told press conference said anyone rioting stopped dead tracks n't think told however , statement still appropriate meanwhile , following announcement jury 's verdict , judge , jury assorted court personnel evacuated building via helicopters landing roof courthouse ca n't even walk front door heads held high jury duty solemn duty taken seriously meant source pride instant fame wo n't rioters surprise waiting wake later today ! well , many people got early go court hear verdict found justice served given dire cynical predictions , imagine surprised \) patrick
gsh7w fermi clas virginia edu \( greg hennessy \) subject concentrate child molesters \? organization university virginia lines 13 article optilink com walsh optilink com \( mark walsh \) writes big difference running one 's business affairs , actively ripping people charging homosexuals becuase people think aids gay disease actively ripping people greg hennessy , university virginia usps mail astronomy department , charlottesville , va 22903 2475 usa internet gsh7w virginia edu uucp ! uunet ! virginia ! gsh7w
gsh7w fermi clas virginia edu \( greg hennessy \) subject concentrate child molesters \? organization university virginia lines 15 article optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes describes straights nearly homosexual males provide evidence n't ahve massive selection effects \? , thought slander part greg hennessy , university virginia usps mail astronomy department , charlottesville , va 22903 2475 usa internet gsh7w virginia edu uucp ! uunet ! virginia ! gsh7w
roby chopin udel edu \( scott w roby \) subject good neighbor political hypocrisy test nntp posting host chopin udel edu organization university delaware lines 17 article news iastate edu jrbeach iastate edu \( jeffry r beach \) writes article 1993apr15 gordian com mike gordian com \( michael thomas \) writes pragmatic standpoint , certainly justification vice people commit anyway shall alcohol \? legalization alcohol done making look bad damn easy vast social historical differences alcohol drugs make comparison worthless meaningless statement makes look bad
gsh7w fermi clas virginia edu \( greg hennessy \) subject role national news media inflaming passions organization university virginia lines 25 theodore kaldis writes ah , know women wear without wearing underwear , prostitutes , suppose must nope nice women , i'm good friends think ok rape anyone n't like way dress \? gee , clayton kaldis engaging ad hominem arguments \? calling someone names , ignorant ad hominem argument \? provided absolutely evidence , provided quote judge else want \? greg hennessy , university virginia usps mail astronomy department , charlottesville , va 22903 2475 usa internet gsh7w virginia edu uucp ! uunet ! virginia ! gsh7w
veal utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) subject gun like american express car lines 137 organization university tennessee division continuing education article 1993apr14 grace rt cs boeing com atc boeing com \( richard \) writes article , john anasazi com \( john r moore \) writes papresco undergrad math uwaterloo ca \( paul prescod \) writes i'm i'm canada far fewer shootings like , believe , one mass murder last twenty years i'm going say n't gun problems world 's largest one gun happy countries world think canada illustrates gun control effect fact , 's suprising difference considering easy smuggle gun u yes , 's amazing , n't fact , tell gun control reason crime rate low , since idiot smuggle guns canada us time think paul trying make point idiot n't surely idiots smuggle guns , paul seems feel stricter gun control laws deterrent effect seems strange argument make considering canada 's violent crime rate general far lower u \( non gun crime rate greater entire crime rate \) would seem strange suggest , , result gun control laws think looked 'd find specific \( cultural enforcement \) reasons non gun rate low well , reasons could applied gun rates easily given criminally used guns either legally purchased stolen purchase legally , restrictions legal possession seem effect reducing gun related crimes aside fact find idea punished somebody might steal something go commit crime silly solution , still n't address question canada \( , way , blaming rising gun crime rate u strange border used magically keep guns , n't \) certainly makes sense would \( well , makes sense us , anyway \) side coin , course , far illegal drugs purchases legally stolen people purchase legally 've still convinced guns , commodity criminals shown perfectly willing pay illegal sources \( stolen either police , military , civilian \) would n't simply see south american sources drugs come start smuggling guns well , since 's thriving gun manufacturing industry would look little closer crime statistics , would realize non gun crime rate also high , guns per se issue directly contradicted nejm study compared crime seattle vancouver , b c non gun rates roughly cities difference violent crime rates almost totally gun related pointed study , critiques , \( two seperate articles james wright david kopel come mind \) pointed difference also almost entirely minority related , gun crime rate poor minorities \( blacks hispanics primarily \) compared white majority identical problem nejm study compared minority vs non minority percentages failed take account relative conditions minorities percentage whites far went failed take account non whites either city living conditions situation entirely based availability guns , 'd expect white rates , two groups arguably fairly comparative two cities , would far higher rate seattle yet majority seattle significantly higher minorities excluded , slightly lower violent crime highly concentrated inner city surprise pick area highest incidence poverty , drug use , disease , etc since rates lower , us middle class folks ignore problem point , course , many u inner city problems mirrored canada condition significantly different canada u , violent crime highly correlated area , suggesting gun control source canada 's low rate highly questionable \( one canadian pointed talk politics guns , canada 's major gun control 1978 result either reduction slowing increase violent crime rates , rising steadily since apparently n't even mirror u large drop violent crime early eighties violent crime occurs areas strict gun control already post hoc ergo propter hoc areas implemented gun control high rates true certain extent take washington c , gun control instituted crime problems true , crime proceeded explode afterwards similarly new york question simply point time crime high low gun control significantly positively impact violent crime since 's gone areas , often faster going , ca n't simply dismiss high crime rate saying gun control caused yes , gun control may instituted deal high crime crime positively impacted , ca n't continually say crime rate entirely cause gun control , since much crime rate increased gun control implemented , happened canada similar worse rates exist cities poor gun control would expected violent crime generally independent gun control jury still question whether recent tough laws washington c may alleviated violence suicide rates would laws made manufacturers liable others guns , suddenly police found nobody would sell \? david veal univ tenn div cont education info services group pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu still remember way laughed , day pushed elevator shaft i'm beginning think n't love anymore weird al
veal utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) subject fillibuster lines 323 organization university tennessee computing center article dscomsa desy de hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) writes article 1993apr15 martha utcc utk edu , pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) writes article dscomsa desy de hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) writes article 1993apr12 martha utcc utk edu , pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) writes well yes federalist papers propaganda therefore difficult determine precisely maddison etc couple ways look one , want support constitution , 'll say anything think appeal , straightforward , think 've suggested constitution good idea clearly consider former primary situation point make pains point may new yorker 's interests also want raise opposition basing advocacy unpopular principles horrors , appealing popular principles perhaps question whether constitution might written appeal principles , rather , appear believe , written something else mind propoganda put supporters let 's honest something , last time brought valid points arguments \? simply \? ca n't know phill really means 's obviously using arguments designed convince well , know hamilton wool , probably authoritarian extreme jefferson 's democratic would suggest means determining opinions government n't consider wrote government \? n't propose means exists determining true opinions thus true opinions died little help today opinions slightest bearing matter though , arguments true false regardless said 're true false , said , earth make point calling \? would seem irrelevent difficulty us posters seem considering arguments may flawed longer apply modern societies oh , argument questioning n't believe longer apply , 's think good arguments i'm entirely happy situation , obviously applied minority time , n't think alone sufficient invalidate alive today one opinion could count upon men express careful study mechanisms government necessary ongoing improvement required gave opinions certain areas proved right areas got wrong mechanism adapt improve happen willingness accept structural problems within us political system may require constitutional change solution since u constitution basis u political system , changes would require constitutional change particular case , however fillibuster matter procedure tradition made part constitution \) senate less powerful house lords , 'd almost state house representatives also \( fact , , british government much greater power american system \) principle , practice yes principle \? less power less power \? british government today dependent monarch convention monarch seeking exercise power subtly prime minister able identify politics national interest manner us presidents regularly phill , 're power legislative houses prime minister member parliament , \( although badly \) u president , please explain u house representatives principle powerful house lords \( senate \) practice less suggesting writers constitution really intended powerful , gosh darn thing ratified realized 'd forgotten put extra restrictions senate \? disagree system slow , simply designed handle less demanded handle somebody washington put \( whose name forget \) , congress become everybody 's city council one reason every level government rendered unable come decisions decisions pushed next higher level instead entry level political science course tell , people want laws implemented always choose level government attack presents best chance getting want national interest groups simply rational thing want federal government enact law rather states less people persuade , less contributions make concerned abortion primarily concentrate federal level \? simply win battle little state battlefields extension extends insurance , medicine , questions local government failed n't done , dominated local interests thus non local interests want localities abide rules ca n't get rules past local government thus , since 've got clout , wrong place , appeal next higher level impose lower mean , let 's get real really need united states deciding x light thus pattern \? needs federal opposed local crime \? people want congress take power sell votes n't think rise special interests coincidence increased power congress congress capable quick action , enough power time hands , confined original allowed local autonomy start social welfare model instead current state motto would better placed plenty state money handed problem distributed basis power congress basis actual need bingo higher governmental ladder less actual need matters , political power concentrated higher levels , people less cloud find reduced effectiveness order set school project new york state pay 49 states pork defense contracts , agricultural subsidies etc precise 30 states since need 60 beat filibuster simply leave new york 's education new york \? remain state union capable educating children 's want leave , worry pork state since industries ca n't concentrate political power wealth , rather must divide among states try get want , individual voices relative impact problem fillibuster must buy states , congress acquired much power sell pork case system government created failing , operating set conditions specifically wanted avoid namely , concentration power would seem proper thing reduce power either house attempt grease wheels 'll get system moves quicker stupid things would make sense make decisions local level , break machine free seizure redirect earth want redirect \? said sell pork get things congress less authority sell pork authority enact national legislation within granted jurisdiction , pork problem significantly reduced current blocks power simply absolve congress responsibility come decision current blocks essentially state inaction preferable action , thus system weighted action considering government usually institution sole power enforce decisions force , consider bias making decisions good thing pushing decisions lower pyramid wo n't work unless lower levels less corrupt cases worse , better difference lower pyramid \) legal , legitimate authority matters constitution federal government , b \) lower levels power harder concentrate c \) get benefit imposing new everybody get see tried without national decision congressional action usually treats entire country whole , yet even similar problems different areas , different solutions may called often n't agree decisions local state reps make , least better option going city council shooting mouth 'd much rather majority laws made accessible people hang around end put rather somebody far washington half million constituents i'm curious base assumption lower levels corrupt fail see restrictions , implied otherwise , placed veto could easily read means put check democratically popular unwise \( executive 's opinion \) policies since arguing federalist papers would point phill , brought federalist papers arguing fillibuster whether minority senators allowed hold bill claimed senate suppose far less powerful house , nothing constitution writings indicated brought ca n't decide founders wanted based federalist papers argued , never argued primarily referred constitution , places small restrictions senate house us constitution gives almost reasoning work part reason given right bear arms ammendment well regulated militia justification ambiguous u constitution nuts bolts document independence high reasoning \( couple examples , though , reasoning power tax , reasoning power grant permits , article , section 8 \) veto meant exceptional measure follows fact senate president meant revise legislation would three chambers legislature , two furthermore separation powers would much less distinct certain extend believe veto become something n't intended however , also believe inevitable considering abuse power make bills say whatever want say unlike people think n't worrying veto , fine , problem congress almost necessitates abuse limit constitution president 's veto power regarding bill previous presidents used veto number reasons , usually something agenda really curious single bush president abused vetos record vetos bush \? phill , 's absurd bush 37 vetos , one ridden go read fdr think 's anything resembling record reasonable restriction \? 51 senators magic holy number upon laws must based \? 41 senators feel safe enough state constituencies stand fillibuster n't enough indicate 's sufficient question whether law good idea evaluate \? point , fact though majority opposed minority minority allowed win default \? inherently wrong system action \? historically governemnt action u dealing issues bare minority large minority successful 're position imposing federal power diverse people , federal government got something bare majority one earth 51 sufficient enact law covers 250 million people , diverse places living radically different conditions \? n't super majority required \? bill issue money bill relating short term proposal 're switching general question fillibuster specific bill n't see make difference change law favour status quo arguable sure 's arguable arguing however , requiring 60 bring vote ensures 'll good argument something n't based solely party lines system simple majority given absolute power ignore minority minority ignored see positive thing i'm sure republicans looking pork much democrats , 've got legitimate objections legislation question instead consider system minority automatically win superior \? , completely happy system requires minority action since u history history carving population groups implementing piece meal minorities , feel minorities sufficent clout prevent action feel strongly enough 41 hardly tiny minority n't advocate minority capable initiating see problem federal system action david veal univ tenn div cont education info services group pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu still remember way laughed , day pushed elevator shaft i'm beginning think n't love anymore weird al
kbanaian bernard pitzer claremont edu \( king banaian \) subject swimming pool defense lines 24 organization pitzer college article 1993apr17 midway uchicago edu thf2 kimbark uchicago edu \( ted frank \) writes article dasmith husc harvard edu dasmith husc8 harvard edu \( david smith \) writes granted , simple fact holding job improve kids' chances getting another job future , inner city kid would want hold one minimum wage job much money made dealing drugs \? suburban kid would want hold minimum wage job much money made dealing drugs \? yet , somehow , kids hold minimum wage jobs inner city kids , give chance reason think inner city kids incapable legitimate work \? suppose correct answer family values \? never mind sorry king sparky banaian 's almost though young kbanaian pitzer claremont edu white guys get dept economics , pitzer college morning big smile latest 1993 gdp forecast 2 4 face , know , homer wrote iliad
mike gordian com \( michael thomas \) subject verdict \( rodney king \) organization gordian costa mesa , ca lines 19 federal civil rights trial four la police officers accused violating rodney king 's civil rights history lawrence powell guilty stacey coons guilty theodore innocent timothy wind innocent sentencing slated mid august , appeals expected far , calm la michael thomas \( mike gordian com \) n't think bambi eyes get flame thrower hobbes calvin usnail irvine ave santa ana heights , ca , \( 714 \) 850 \( 714 \) 850 \( fax \)
gsh7w fermi clas virginia edu \( greg hennessy \) subject new study gay percentage organization university virginia lines 10 article philc5n6d5 mk3 netcom com phil netcom com \( phil ronzone \) writes tells something fascist politics practiced ah , ending discrimination fascism greg hennessy , university virginia usps mail astronomy department , charlottesville , va 22903 2475 usa internet gsh7w virginia edu uucp ! uunet ! virginia ! gsh7w
william fractl tn cornell edu subject abolish selective service organization dept tam cornell univ ithaca , ny lines 19 reply william fractl tn cornell edu nntp posting host fractl tn cornell edu article 1993apr15 m5 harvard edu , borden head cfa harvard edu \( dave borden \) writes selective service registration abolished start , draft immoral whether agree , n't one , military experts agree quality armed forces superior volunteer army draftees finally , government us many lists many computers \( irs , social security admistration motor vehicle registries name \) find us needs maintaining yet another list people utter waste money time let 's axe whole department , reduce deficit little bit dave borden borden m5 harvard edu selfish little bastard afraid might sacrafice somthing country someone approve lone \? bad immoral people like current president n't idea country still exists 200 years
starowl rahul net \( michael adams \) subject new study gay percentage nntp posting host bolero reply starowl rahul net organization service actuarial consulting x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 14 sat , 17 apr 1993 20 42 58 gmt , greg hennessy observed article philc5n6d5 mk3 netcom com phil netcom com \( phil ronzone \) writes tells something fascist politics practiced ah , ending discrimination fascism called truman forced integration armed forces , despite opposition congress american public time \? michael adams \( starowl a2i rahul net \) enterprise , alabama hurts lazarus long
as010b uhura cc rochester edu \( tree schnopia \) subject new study gay percentage organization university rochester rochester , new york lines 35 nntp posting host uhura cc rochester edu apr 17 06 54 41 1993 romulus rutgers edu kaldis romulus rutgers edu \( theodore kaldis \) writes 1 \) \? bolsters contention many homosexuals liars statement blatantly disgusting free implicit neural activity almost completely ignore join pythagorean reform church ! repent evil irrational numbers bean eating ways accept 10 heart ! call pythagorean reform church bbs 508 793 9568 smacks bigotry sigh 's amusing watch bigots point fingers imagine bigots believe person meant bean counting trying suggest hispanics eat beans \? even monopoly eating beans \? person seriously promoting obviously tongue cheek sig \? must brain somewhere , cause fingers type use bi andrew simchik schnopia ! as010b uhura cc rochester edu treewater words n't made cowards happy rhodes
biochem nwu edu \( jackson \) subject swimming pool defense nntp posting host biochem nwu edu organization northwestern university , evanston , illinois lines 23 article kbanaian 488 bernard pitzer claremont edu kbanaian bernard pitzer claremont edu \( king banaian \) writes article 1993apr17 midway uchicago edu thf2 kimbark uchicago edu \( ted frank \) writes article dasmith husc harvard edu dasmith husc8 harvard edu \( david smith \) writes granted , simple fact holding job improve kids' chances getting another job future , inner city kid would want hold one minimum wage job much money made dealing drugs \? suburban kid would want hold minimum wage job much money made dealing drugs \? yet , somehow , kids hold minimum wage jobs inner city kids , give chance reason think inner city kids incapable legitimate work \? suppose correct answer family values \? never mind sorry assuming families inner city n't family values \? sure hope
as010b uhura cc rochester edu \( tree schnopia \) subject new study gay percentage nntp posting host uhura cc rochester edu organization university rochester rochester , new york lines 51 news cso uiuc edu dans uxa cso uiuc edu \( dan \) writes brian gab unt edu \( brian stone \) writes \( axe grind i'm scientist hate see statistics abused \) pity n't say something use statistics justify targeting persecuting minority , men men like sex gay male sex three times life , man , virgin hetero man sex one woman life \( wife \) pleasing able say hope feeling also wish could \( wanted \) experience joys trials committed someone life \( something marriage makes commitment much greater one might expect \) tree makes think queers can't experience commitment \? 's stopping us committing one partner rest lives \? every intention , find right person whether person male female , seriously doubt church ceremony public vow licence make difference whatsoever sort commitment experience person conception difference marriage makes since never known way statistics alone prove criminals default hetero n't forget culture sadly , n't \( society \) look upon homosexuality normal \( well aware , alot people condemn \) result , gay population encouraged develop non promiscuous relationships fact many roadblocks put way committed relationships heterosexual community puts blocks perpetuate claim gays immoral , allowed gays marry , raise children might find 're moral , ca n't \? 're getting right idea careful making statements like , 'll part solution problem thoughts flame away \) flames necessary \) bi andrew simchik schnopia ! as010b uhura cc rochester edu treewater words n't made cowards happy rhodes
kkopp uxh cso uiuc edu \( koppenhoefer kyle cramm \) subject kyle k rodney king distribution usa organization university illinois urbana lines 19 thf2 kimbark uchicago edu \( ted frank \) writes article c5lp0y fdk news cso uiuc edu kkopp uxh cso uiuc edu \( koppenhoefer kyle cramm \) writes fact bunch cops putting lives line day day afraid hell large black guy took large amount punishment refused submit \? i'm curious think particular adjective important i'm curious took beign statement cross posted several different news groups , including something along lines alt discrimination look rodney king black large several large black male friends , referred large black men \( faces , \) know , ted , large number , spare try get personal flame wars let say think action cross posting total bs , 're trying start crap hopefully , others see trite little game play along
as010b uhura cc rochester edu \( tree schnopia \) subject new study gay percentage nntp posting host uhura cc rochester edu organization university rochester rochester , new york lines 33 1993apr16 8045 magnus acs ohio state edu rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu \( ryan c scharfy \) writes 1 \) \? less gays , gays claim n't forget 25 20 partners wondering n't getting laid bad english \? \( see quote \) actually , bet gay bi men promiscuous gay men , could option living straight life , social pressures , probably would least try 'd lose wager , supporting argument part know fact homosexuality comparatively high hitler 's storm troopers \( sa \) came power wonder got put triangles know hitler devout christian \? heterosexual \? bi andrew simchik schnopia ! as010b uhura cc rochester edu treewater words n't made cowards happy rhodes
netcom com \( \) subject race violence organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) distribution usa lines 93 1993apr13 212441 gtx com al gtx com \( alan \) writes even though city \( phoenix \) relatively small black population , black people seem responsible disproportionate amount violent crime yesterday , black men robbed cafeteria , beat employees apparent reason , shot one dead , even though cooperative days ago , car full black men opened fire car containing young white couple baby , possibly n't like way man driving baby slightly injured incidents even unusual even white person starts without racial prejudice \( , , \) one teaches prejudiced , 's sometimes hard see avoid becoming , based observations instinct self preservation always taught children racial prejudice wrong \( bad , also mistaken \) , counteract effect kinds incidents \? 's answer \? work racial prejudice incidents like keep flames \? say deny racial prejudice rational response environment \? \? \? since 60 's , thought hope integration based ignoring race treating person individual , many either preach emphasizing race validate racism actions lead \? \( alan , gtx corp , e road , phoenix , az , usa \) \( internet al gtx com uucp uunet ! gtx ! al phone \( 602 \) 224 8742 \) alan , start teaching children perpetrators crimes represent black community racist hateful whites represent majority culture \( although many ethnic minorities fallen trap struggling , believe otherwise \) trap easy way , think would good idea realize demographics related crimes speak less race , much socioeconomic status 're going find higher crime within community comprised ethnic group become dysfunctional , whatever factors leading dysfunction ethnic minorities usually , said , socioeconomic , example , lived area blacks , quite poor generations whites , 'd see crime statistics reflecting dysfunction white people would worry children would begin see whites whatever \? trap springs action innate define us raises little voice trap becomes dangerous stop listen little voice stop thinking like rational humans 's interesting blacks traditionally seen criminal element many urban areas n't know racial makeup phoenix , ca n't speak situation however , live san francisco , city loves tout ethnic diversity , black gangs , hispanic gangs , asian \( yes , model minority \) gangs , even white gangs asian gangs become particularly troublesome element law enforcement , mainly due \( think \) propensity engaging organized criminal activities ask people street 'll , 8 10 times , tell black gangs crime fear disturbance los angeles last year many rioters black even white ! remember amazed television news scenes showed looting mobs maybe one two blacks ! perceptions , gleaned tv news , numerous friends relatives live los angeles may country 's first truly multi ethnic riot yet know face face online discussion minds america popular perception black riot ! closing , 'd like say raise interesting points really need discussion country spent long ignoring racism \( attendant \) much part culture people , afraid face truths , problem becomes daily cannot afford much longer truly believe well us depends changing current course denial repression wish children , people , colors , luck avoiding trap peace , brother crystal wind storm , netcom com storm data , michael douglas data life player 's \( long run \)
rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu \( ryan c scharfy \) subject good neighbor political hypocrisy test nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 27 article netcom com steveth netcom com \( steve thomas \) wri tes article 1993apr16 magnus acs ohio state edu rscharfy magnus cs ohio state edu \( ryan c scharfy \) writes however , legalizing sticking drugs gas stations bought like cigarettes plain silly n't find silly find silly \( black humor \) 're spending billions dollars risking lives freedoms every american save bunch choice could please tell us find silly 's , , letters w , h , rather arguments like oh , thinks true first , drug could possibly put drug stations marijuana every drug think kill take much \( nature drugs , decision making skills n't par differs , vitamins , etc n't even allow sold counter \) second , already big enough drunk driving problem country marijuana legal , undoubtedly people would use , problem people use , get stupid , hurt people ryan
rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu \( ryan c scharfy \) subject good neighbor political hypocrisy test nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 99 article netcom com steveth netcom com \( steve thomas \) wri tes article news iastate edu jrbeach iastate edu \( jeffry r beach \) writes article netcom com steveth netcom com \( steve thomas \) w rites boy , looks like wod working really good stop people screwed head , given example ! \( issue friend got drugs legal legal , 'll continue get issue 2 , somebody use illegal drugs screwed pay idiot 's problems \? 's anybody harm except wod , hand , n immediate threat life tell sacrafice ! \) hello , anybody \? think pay idiot 's problem , 's going pay number addicts associated problems n't even want think hillary white house administration feels pain look , truly lower taxation less government , would advocating wod ever wonder wod bi partisan issue \? harm \? drives school bus full kids train gets stoned drives sidewalk kills 5 people lives welfare rest life ridiculous ca n't imagine anyone stupid forgive flaming , obvious ! tell cases cannot caused legal drug , viz alcohol , war , \? 'll tell people killed alcohol related accidents drugs combined far probably people access legal know problem wod bite sending slimy bastards chair selling drugs kids , 's bit yeah , 's , send kid inner city , viable means make money turns selling drugs , crowded federal prison learns real crime course , kid would much better selling crack neighborhood helping demise without drug money pumped \( affluent \) outside , would crime \( would steal , \? \) drugs bring money community like business would , except , since drugs illegal , economy underground one drugs legal , neighborhood could legally go hell self sustaining underground economy constant willful infusion money outside take away drug laws , put end underground economy , therefore large scale crime made murder legal , would put end murder crime kids inner cities faced tough life growing , selling drugs everything fingertips instantly many kids choose selling drugs sell products people want buy make money rich white kids suburbs go prison become hardened criminals , learn 're much better stealing car stereos suburbs police forces spending money inner city saving people \? \? \? \? \? \? bring examples want crack babies solution never anything laws \( crack illegal \) saying crack babies way legally okay \? social problem , however great , worth destroying freedom america destruction freedom never answer social problem ca n't even walk street night alone america drugs freedom ass ryan
jar2e faraday clas virginia edu \( virginia 's gentleman \) subject top ten signs 's age aquarius pennsylvania avenue organization university virginia lines 11 regard woody 's post , thought would remind something midst tirade academia member generation likely pay crap reagan cronies started deficit according brilliant curve \( ! \) think need look open minds upon ideas allow us directly address problems gigantic federal deficit debt continue allow economy expand n't remember woody co complaining academia implemented policy , stockman approved fully aware numbers adding , reagan completing largest con job century generation pay jesse
rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu \( ryan c scharfy \) subject drugs legalized , \? \( good neighbor \) nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 22 article senator bedfellow mit edu wdstarr athena mit edu \( wil liam december starr \) writes article 1993apr16 magnus acs ohio state edu , rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu \( ryan c scharfy \) said however , legalizing sticking drugs gas stations bought like cigarettes plain silly plus , never heard recommended dosage drugs like crack , ecstasy , meth lsd 60 minute report said worked cocaine cigarettes , pot heroin , government could adopt radical probably unamerican idea citizens free live lives wish , simply cocaine , marijuana , heroin , lsd , etc please explain idea allowing recreational drugs bought like cigarettes plain silly , works fine nicotine yeah , cancer pretty cool , n't ryan
\( paolo \) subject new bullshit study gay percentage lines 48 15378 optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes santa rosa \( cal \) press democrat , april 15 , 1993 , p b2 male sex survey gay activity low new natonal study male sexual behavior , thorough examination american men 's sexual practices published since kinsey report four decades ago , shows 2 percent men surveyed engaged homosexual sex 1 percent considered exclusively homosexual etc etc article also contains numbers number sexual partners median number sexual partners men 20 39 7 3 sure ! ! ! 's 3 woman \? \? \? hypothesis \? \? trust report people idea median \? bullshit article reported 22 , 5 men sex 10 times week \( elf , many times fill one \? \) statistics took consideration different class backgrounds , marital status etc information sampling given compared table already posted masters , johnson , kolodny showing male homosexual partners , apparent homosexual men dramatically promiscuous general male population 's shame n't breakdown think compare lightly secondary data 2 different \( \) surveys \? \? \? straight men vs gay bi men would show even dramatically much promiscuous gay bi men shows dramatically ignorant press release writers read paolo
gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) subject z magazine health care reform \( march 93 \) nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) organization phds hall lines 95 sorry , et al , doctors hospitals still private canada well much western europe harelb math cornell edu \( grad brown \) writes h e l h c r e r e f r z magazine \( see bottom \) , march 1993 single payer model , sometimes called national health insurance , eliminates private insurance companies removes health care employment government provides free health care u residents pocket costs wrong better ec countries use pure \( public \) health insurance \( like use canada \) rather self enclosed hmo like socialized medicine , 30 costs comes private supplementary insurance copayments france magazine 's summer 1992 edition fantastic presentation basic insurance coverage , including sample chart percentages 1 30 days , 're covered 80 public hospital rate , 100 afterward extra private insurance , get private hospital covered differences beyond public hospital rate public insurance covers 100 beyond 30 days , cash amount private hospital difference paid pocket according supplementary private insurance 2 french form extra private insurance , 30 health costs europe private funds gleaned taxes gdp figures combined public private expenditures total using methods yield 13 14 figure u french deductibles copayments insurance fund credit minority advocating back canada \( make canadian insurance look like real health insurance actually \) new reform party , conservatives mildly libertarian faction , hold public health insurance people reminded 's free \( average canadian european naive american counterparts issues like \) i'm one people favour copayments \( forget leftists , even conservatives attack canadian newsgroups \) make look like real insurance , 'cos 100 insurance payment hidden \( unlike france \) n't know , 'd believe actually socialized medicine \( american conservatives libertarians canadian leftists ones seriously call \) canadians n't worried americans , spend 14 're worried french germans spend 7 9 insurance looking things n't paid general funds like insurance policies , sick notes , , etc reason canadian health insurance n't control despite open universal unlike americans , urge spend worth , 're different culture like play pay model , managed competition leaves place two elements current health care system reformers often criticize private , profit insurance industry employer based system coverage managed competition employers workers large pools health insurance customers entire industries may , example , sponsor pool network insurance companies , doctors , hospitals health care providers bid pool 's business , competing theory basis price quality managed care relies hmo 's , unknown western nations use public health insurance like canada , france germany \( i'm canadian , german father law says hmo nhs approaches , left behind east germany ! \) sure , hmo nhs controls costs managers doctors budget strings canada , use public health insurance approach france germany , private doctors private public hospitals pure insurance without hmo 's divisions different , germans using couple hundred sickness funds century old canada divides provinces \( run insurance fund set local fees doctors monopoly federal funds cover fees \) open ended system , 's surprise canada 2 u costs insurance expensive way go french germans use approach larger populations compact geography improve scales economy gld je souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go ! ! ! gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) subject eight myths national health insurance \( pt ii \) nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) organization phds hall lines 134 harelb math cornell edu \( misc activism progressive co moderator \) writes f cus health eight myths national health insurance \( pt ii \) office visit 's 52 seattle 18 vancouver \( canada \) 's , among things , 've given government power bargain doctors hospitals fees difference litigation environment reflected fees lack defensive medicine near absence malpractice really spend less using expensive approach pure insurance canada \( along france germany \) without hmo 's nyt admitted malpractice insurance fees order magnitude lower canada doctors take home pay almost equal american doctors also , minimal bureaucracy 'cos system simple \( early march \) part deal using insurance approach like french germans \( hey , n't criticize france germany \? many people take french german college make accusations stick \? \( \) preserve doctors since provincial wings cma ones go bat fee schedule presented , politically bent doctors realized cma would grow strength rather diminish , especially unlike socialized medicine approaches like britain 's national health service 've got remember , 've got waiting list well , 's obvious 're poor n't insurance , n't go surgeon states ability pay ' non life threatening things , market arguments adequately cover certain procedures demand md friends ca n't make living specialists back manitoba due insurance rates wo n't get enough customers cma medical monopoly 's grip doctors licencing \( us \) aside must move larger places however , refute debunking waiting lines urgent routine care , done u consumers reports , health policy studies cited prof dennis e shea usenet , cnn , nyt , etc doug fierro posted nyt article 3 weeks ago canada 's health insurance approach , talk politics medicine one small error article hospitals private national health insurance mean americans fully insured might settle less \? canada , provincial insurance covers health costs except dental care , , prescription drugs , ambulance service , private hospital rooms , many canadians end buying private insurance policy cover things runs 40 40 month course , one thing note canada france germany case , private insurance basic coverage public sector realized keeping low risk high profit extra insurance things like private semi private rooms \( vs ward accomodation \) , dental , glasses , etc corporate personal benefits , 'll nothing want covered basic care point , would n't even consider voucher approach broker universal coverage sell policies make difference federal guidelines market stuff free care encourage people run doctor every ache pain \? people get free treatment go doctor hospital third often pay share medical bills still , canadians pay nothing doctor 's lower per person health bill free deductibles copayments \( two things advocate make canadian insurance look like real health insurance actually \) know working alberta , ontario quebec , aware paying health insurance e g , toronto , ohip fees listed pay stub manitoba collect time , annually income tax time \( built tax rate \) fiscal proclaim 's free , along canadian left part brainwashing agenda french copayments , though france magazine 's summer 1992 edition fantastic presentation basic insurance coverage , including sample chart percentages 1 30 days , 're covered 80 public hospital rate , 100 afterward extra private insurance , get private hospital covered differences beyond public hospital rate public insurance covers 100 beyond 30 days , cash amount private hospital difference paid pocket according supplementary private insurance 2 french form extra private insurance , 30 health costs europe private funds , gleaned taxes gdp figures combined public private expenditures total using methods yield 13 14 figure u private health insurance industry big powerful kill \? dismantling health segment insurance industry would politically thorny , quiet words one advocate national plan 1 , 200 firms sell 192 billion health insurance 'd put hard fight industry grown since canada shut health insurers , government leaves politicians open lobbyists canada 's parliamentary system health insurance exist canada western europe , n't cover basic care opt canada germany , 'll go result people e , market private insurance realized much money 'd make without risks involved basic insurance \( e g , \) versus deluxe amenities \( e g , call tv replace rental set fritz someone 's private hospital room \) , started pat back social responsibility quebec last spring , consortium private insurers publicly warned thoughts routine , low cost parts province 's public health insurance plan gld je souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go ! ! ! gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) subject f cus health one payer system b nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) organization phds hall distribution na lines 54 msuvx2 memstvx1 bitnet mizzou1 missouri edu writes never mention much working canadians pay taxes free health care system oh , really \? \? \? know 50 average daily worker 's salary goes towards taxes canada mainly free health care looks like pretty lucky far know working alberta , ontario quebec , aware paying health insurance e g , toronto , ohip fees listed seperately pay stub i'm canadian lower taxes spending , health insurance n't table see polls better one might july 1st polls conducted \( major english \) decima research decima president allen gregg considered one world 's top poll researchers , mulroney 's conservatives relied keep power face impossible election situations n't chance see year 's version due library , previous ones americans started assault disinformation shown satisfaction 97 switching american private system support within statistical noise decima polls considered definitive even new reform party , conservatives mildly libertarian faction , hold public health insurance people reminded 's free \( average canadian european naive american counterparts issues like \) personally , feel universal health insurance approach used canada , france germany paying private health providers nominally free market unlike america 's , minus hmo 's depends lot values societies different u basic health needs life viewed market , insurance allow market address basic health care viewed level ownership vcr americans would see plenty room left expenditure private funds extra insurance lastly , noises canadian system containing costs , , fact , system currently bankrupt please explain one , hopefully way canadian readers besides understand concur gld je souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go ! ! ! gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
clinton hq campaign92 org \( clinton gore '92 \) subject clinton president 's radio interview pittsburgh 4 17 93 organization mit artificial intelligence lab lines 212 nntp posting host life ai mit edu white house office press secretary \( pittsburgh , pennsylvania \) immediate release april 17 , 1993 interview president michael kdka radio , pittsburgh pittsburgh international airport pittsburgh , pennsylvania 10 40 edt q everyone listening kdka radio , i'm mike , kdka radio news 're pittsburgh international airport president united states bill clinton 'd like welcome area kdka president thank , mike glad q lot things 'd like talk brief amount time , news breaking los angeles guess entire country kind holding breath , wondering 's going happen trial four los angeles police officers heard two officers , , koon officer powell found guilty , two officers found guilty 's situation 's building year since first trial trial verdict wonder thoughts morning see situation los angeles connection administration 're trying president well , first , think american people know trial , judgment , tribute work judgment jury , well efforts federal government developing case law officers tried complex one standards proof complicated jury decided would convict responsible officers officer film beating jury acquitted officer kicked rodney king , also plainly tried shield blows , another officer rookie one knows exactly , appears really tried justice acknowledged civil rights violated think american people take lot pride hope begin look ahead focus three things first , importance trying bring country together violate civil rights american secondly , importance renewing fight crime think 's important recognize areas los angeles many cities country , people may worried police abuse , 're even worried crime 's time renewed efforts go community policing put 100 , 000 police officers street pass brady bill would require waiting period people could buy handgun , things reduce people violence drugs last point 'd like make seems got economic cities economically distressed areas think everybody los angeles wanted job one , n't think 'd quite many problems laid ambitious program campaign try bring private investment public investment bear cities dispatched commerce secretary , ron brown , california try come strategies state , 's biggest state highest unemployment rate could applied around country want talk attorney general , new head naacp , reverend jackson , several people , 'll decide go regard los angeles cities country q let 's talk brings pittsburgh area today guess 's lot discussion capitol hill stimulus package 've locked battle gop yesterday , said earlier radio address , made moves break gridlock brings pittsburgh , particular allegheny county , particular pennsylvania , battle \? president well , two reasons first , pittsburgh , allegheny county pennsylvania supported last election wanted new direction economic policy passed overall economic plan gives country different budget next five years 've previous 12 reduced deficit , time , increased investment jobs education health care , things make us stronger country addition , asked congress short run spend little money , modest amount money create another half million jobs next year half try cut unemployment rate half percent also try spark job creation private sector plan passed house support majority senate present time , republican senators bloc bill , wo n't let come vote believe senator specter would like vote bill believe senator dole , republican leader , put lot pressure lot republicans stay 're saying bill increases deficit n't bill well spending targets congress approved , including republicans , year bill paid budget cuts next five years bill designed give jump start economy must say , lot republican senators holding , mr bush president , voted billions dollars emergency spending kind much totally unrelated creating jobs i'm trying break 've held olive branch , 've offered compromise think ought try put americans work right show 're changing direction country 's purpose bill q touch senator specter office lately \? president well , 've trying talk regularly white house congressional liaison operation senators think open senator specter , senator new york , senator vermont , senator oregon , five six others believe know need jobs economy know paying budget cuts life budget presented know , lot appeal say , well , 've got big deficit , n't increase truth paying budget cuts whole life budget next years importantly , program well spending targets congress already approved year 've done years , republicans voting many republicans voting things n't nearly important putting american people back work hope n't become political issue ought people country need jobs q questions people supported , people skeptical administration hopes , also fears lot people supported voted pennsylvania think saying , 're glad got white house , look incredible process go look problems look gridlock 're beginning wonder , going work pull \? , course , skeptics saying , well , knew going like president well , would 'd ask people , first , remember , frankly , moving fast budget resolution congress passed fastest ever passed budget resolution ever history , setting next five year budget targets moving really rapidly 've got working political reform , welfare reform , health care reform , whole wide range things 's big operation ca n't expect turn around overnight took 12 years produce conditions led victory received people november , ca n't turn around 90 days think 're making real , real progress would urge people get discouraged 're going win every battle , everything going happen overnight definitely moving changing things q thank much president united states , bill clinton , live pittsburgh international airport i'm mike , kdka news end10 31 edt
clinton hq campaign92 org \( clinton gore '92 \) subject clinton president 's radio address 4 17 93 organization mit artificial intelligence lab lines 178 nntp posting host life ai mit edu white house office press secretary \( pittsburgh , \) immediate release april 17 , 1993 radio address nation president pittsburgh international airport pittsburgh , pennsylvania 10 06 edt president good morning voice coming morning facilities oldest radio station america , kdka pittsburgh i'm visiting city meet personally citizens discuss plans jobs , health care economy wanted first weekly broadcast american people i'm told station first broadcast 1920 reported year 's presidential elections past seven decades presidents found ways keep touch people , whistle stop tours fire side bus tour adopted , along vice president gore , last year 's campaign every saturday morning take time talk , fellow americans , problems minds i'm try solve 's way reporting giving way hold accountable sent washington get government economy moving years policy bad experiment trickle economics know important us make bold , comprehensive changes way business live competitive global economy nations rise fall skills workers , competitiveness companies , imagination industries , cooperative experience spirit exists business , labor government although many economies industrialized world suffering slow growth , 've made many smart investments tough choices government long ignored 's many moving ahead many people falling behind economy today even grows producing new jobs 've increased debt nation four times last 12 years , n't much show know wages working people stopped rising , people working longer work weeks many families longer afford escalating cost health care also know , given right tools , right incentives right encouragement , workers businesses make kinds products profits economy needs expand opportunity make communities better places live many critical products today americans low cost , high quality producers task make sure create kinds jobs two months ago gave congress plan long term jobs economic growth changes old priorities washington puts emphasis needs people 's real needs , increasing investments jobs education , cutting federal deficit , stopping waste pays , precious resources toward investment creates jobs groundwork robust economic growth future new directions passed congress record time created new sense hope opportunity country jobs plan presented congress , would create hundreds thousands jobs , private sector 1993 1994 , passed house representatives support majority united states senate 's held filibuster minority senate , 43 senators blocked vote know would result passage bill creation jobs issue n't politics issue people millions americans waiting legislation counting , counting us washington jobs bill grounded gridlock know american people tired business usual politics usual know n't want us spin wheels want recovery get moving taken first step break gridlock gone extra mile yesterday offered cut size plan 25 percent 16 billion 12 billion 's 'd hoped 16 million americans looking full time work , simply ca n't let bill languish know even compromise bill mean hundreds thousands jobs people mandate act achieve change move country forward taking initiative face senate , think respond mandate achieve significant portion original goals first , want keep programs much possible needed generate jobs meet human needs , including highway road construction , summer jobs young people , immunization children , construction waste water sites , aid small businesses also want keep funding extended unemployment compensation benefits , people unemployed long time economy n't creating jobs second , 've recommended programs bill cut across board little 40 percent third , 've recommended new element program help us immediately start attempt fight crime providing 200 million cities towns police officers lost jobs recession put back work protecting people i'm also going fight tough crime bill people country need deserve , people bill republican senators say wo n't vote increases deficit spending , 's extra spending year n't already approved sounds reasonable , n't \? 's n't say program paid budget cuts five year budget , budget well within spending limits already approved congress year 's amazing many senators bill voted previous administration billions dollars kind emergency spending , much designed put american people work deficit spending offered plan cut deficit priorities people politics keep mind jobs bill paid dollar dollar paid budget cuts 's investment make children urge americans take another look jobs investment program consider benefits us 've helped make american partners working ensure future nation strength economy know , every american wanted job one , would n't lot problems country today bill miracle , 's modest first step try set job creation explosion country 's step ought take fully paid life budget tell lawmakers think tell important bill passes , 'll winners good morning , thank listening end 10 11 edt
gaul csd uwo ca \( \) subject new study gay percentage organization welsh farm nntp posting host obelix gaul csd uwo ca lines 16 article apr 16 20 34 50 1993 romulus rutgers edu kaldis romulus rutgers edu \( theodore kaldis \) writes , one properly write 's promiscuous \? answer many homosexuals quite answer many homosexuals , heterosexual , bisexuals , , many , simply lots people good , c , dog uwo ca b , rhode island obelix gaul csd uwo ca bear bernoulli would content die , known 2 cos
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject help fight clinton administration 's invasion privacy organization university toronto chemistry department lines 16 article blue cis pitt edu pitt edu \( j \) writes clinton administration wants manage use digital encryption includes proposal would limit use encryption standard developed nsa , technical details would remain classified government cannot allowed happen bit unfair call blame clinton administration alone initiative underway bush administration basically effort establishment effort brought l scandal , bcci , etc gerald
cutter gloster via mind org \( cutter \) subject nc vs hunt \( marine gay bashing wilmington nc \) verdict distribution world organization gordian knot , gloster , ga lines 23 jon atlas mitre org \( j e shum \) writes article wolves durham nc us , wolfe wolves durham nc us \( g wo sad day civil rights typical nc \( unfortunately \) typical principle reasonable doubt upheld north carolina , would count state 's favor reasonable doubt dates back human rights time civil rights civil rights issued state whatever strings attached choose said rights means verdicts determined needs state rather guilt innocence traditional sense , subjective rather objective may make harder anticipate right , may sacrificed wrong inadvertantly , really small price pay common good n't think \? cutter gloster via mind org \( chris \) jobs easy person n't holt 's law
lfoard hopper virginia edu \( lawrence c foard \) subject new study gay percentage organization itc uva community access unix internet project lines 47 article 1993apr16 8045 magnus acs ohio state edu rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu \( ryan c scharfy \) writes article c5k5lc cyf murdoch acc virginia edu lfoard hopper virginia edu \( la c foard \) writes article 15378 optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes santa rosa \( cal \) press democrat , april 15 , 1993 , p b2 male sex survey gay activity low new natonal study male sexual behavior , thorough examination american men 's sexual practices published since kinsey report four decades ago , shows 2 percent men surveyed engaged homosexual sex 1 percent considered exclusively homosexual figures homosexuality study released wednesday alan guttmacher institute significantly lower 10 percent figure part conventional wisdom since published kinsey report 1 \) \? less gays , gays claim last checked one person , n't even elected representative ascribe every thing say representing every member straight community \? 2 \) interesting see reaction 2 5million queers gather washington dc 6million us event unprecidented history dream abortion african american civil rights rallies n't even bring half thats point several million queers dc better start wondering validity study join pythagorean reform church ! repent evil irrational numbers bean eating ways accept 10 heart ! call pythagorean reform church bbs 508 793 9568
lfoard hopper virginia edu \( lawrence c foard \) subject new study gay percentage organization itc uva community access unix internet project lines 61 article apr 17 06 54 41 1993 romulus rutgers edu kaldis romulus rutgers edu \( theodore kaldis \) writes article c5k5lc cyf murdoch acc virginia edu lfoard hopper virginia edu \( lawrence c foard \) writes 1 \) \? bolsters contention many homosexuals liars study proved wrong proves heterosexuals liars \? unlike propaganda spouted far right ten percent figure backed best study available time hardly certain new study correct since n't even enough time double checking happen alan guttmacher institute , btw , funded planned parenthood , hardly qualifies , family values course found 10 would invalid funded planned parenthood \) 2 \) interesting see reaction 2 5million queers gather washington dc 6million us event unprecidented history 2 5 million queers show april 25th wo n't anywhere near many go ahead make day promote number way , surely much greater embarrassment slap face homosexual activists crowds much smaller even one million point still stands even getting 1 6th given population one place would unprecidented even 1 million show dc raise serious doubts study , indicate resolve unprecidented human history btw , noticed even slick willie n't going town day \? n't target march , presidents often speak civil rights \( course would nice \) however republicans conservative democrats would well take notice join pythagorean reform church ! repent evil irrational numbers bean eating ways accept 10 heart ! call pythagorean reform church bbs 508 793 9568 smacks bigotry quite amusing obviously know nothing history math join pythagorean reform church ! repent evil irrational numbers bean eating ways accept 10 heart ! call pythagorean reform church bbs 508 793 9568
steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) subject limiting govt \( employment \( concentrate \) summary limited governments versus failed governments organization boomer , inc lines 49 nntp posting host thor isc br com article rigel tamu edu gmw0622 rigel tamu edu \( mr grinch \) writes article 1993apr15 170731 8797 isc br isc br com , steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) writes strawman argument fails several grounds case , limited big government defined would point lebanon , somalia , former yugoslavia definitions nations limited government , us , canada , nations western europe \( people would rather live \) often pointed nations big government libertarian point view well , let help explaining difference government failed government limited government powers clearly circumscribed , fully capable enforcing decisions within circumscribed areas failed government incapable enforcing decisions except two completely different beasts course , one faces question one government power \( keeps circumscribed \) complex society interest neither capitalists consumers refrain using government power ends apart little would seem society failed government would ideal setting libertarian ideals implemented suppose never seems occur \? argument want limited government want unlimited government believe government regulation capitalist economy serves worthwhile ends believe regulation neither desirable empirical grounds justifiable ideological grounds regulation word would n't call vague 'd call elastic regulation necessarily opposing government regulation , libertarians treat every system command economy regulate relatively free markets identical 's one reason many rest us find analysis simplistic jsh mr grinch steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing data , sure cut uucp ! uunet ! isc br ! thor ! steveh bulls r hofferbert bell 509 838 8826
steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) subject limiting govt \( employment \( concentrate \) summary feasibility considered organization free barbers , inc lines 72 nntp posting host thor isc br com article rigel tamu edu gmw0622 rigel tamu edu \( mr grinch \) writes article 1993apr16 isc br isc br com , steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) writes case case basis , cost benefit ratio government regulation obviously worthwhile libertarian agenda , however , call assessment assumes costs regulation \( kind \) always outweigh benefits approach avoids sorts difficult analysis , strikes many rest us dogmatic , say least assume mean analyzing cost benefit ratio government regulation case case basis worthwhile let suggest option regulators regulate , 's i'm sure n't consider option one suggests analysis left regulators fact , inventing government movement provides cost benefit approach analysis public spending libertarians would well learn might possible pass amendment would prevent laws valid , assuming could convince people would overall good idea eliminating laws serve good purpose \( vast majority \) maintaining worthwhile ones \( assuming \) feasible sorry , strikes feasible approach feasible wholesale attack government regulation licensing treats cutting hair practicing medicine equivalent tasks objection analysis medical care , education , national defense local police suggests free market provide effective , efficient means accomplishing social objectives provided statist approaches notable exceptions , however , see nitty gritty , worthwhile analysis carried self professed libertarians jsh note examples tend among government areas likely win approval among libertarians anyway actually , areas public spending strike generating substantial support among libertarians police defense \( interesting aside committed libertarians claim principle non coercion , areas public spending frequently support involve hiring people guns hmmm \) objectionable government expenditures , also biggest certain individuals suggest considered defense grounds sort would revolutionaries , personally n't feel much fear alliance mothers maybe 've led sheltered life perhaps may suggest consider revolutionaries frequently generate support acting protectors , mothers children governments ignore people grounds n't much fear peril jsh mr grinch steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing data , sure cut uucp ! uunet ! isc br ! thor ! steveh bulls r hofferbert bell 509 838 8826
pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) subject propaganda fillibuster lines 213 organization university tennessee computing center article dscomsa desy de hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) writes article veal 740 utkvm1 utk edu , veal utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) writes article dscomsa desy de hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) writes simply \? ca n't know phill really means 's obviously using arguments designed convince make secret , stated explicitly posts political propagandist numerous occasions anyone posting group probably wrong group example numerous occasions stated quite clearly beleive certain factions gun lobby worst possible advocates cause prepared anything power provide platform convince people far better could hope many people fixation lethal weapons dangerous happen know political position people advocating harm good , please point people even accused inventing advocates purely purpose trash set political views fact would futile tactic could never hope invent character dangerous athena edu , man quite seriously believe ill potential psychopath unfortunately local office informed unable act untill attacks someone one advantages draw backs requiring proof part government may take action citizens \( part reason us believe weapons available \) ask point trying make current argument absolute sanctity us constitution would answer \? arguing absolute sanctity u constitution fact , fillibuster 're talking n't constitution objected suggestion senate n't intended exercise power clearly given firstly see current us political scene like uk political scene become tied special interests rather chase convenient put media gay rights , environmentalists , zionists \( e jews \) , foreign lobbyists whatever voting power etc look really inevitable conclusion major corporations owned ultra wealthy regan bush created described welfare state rich 'll point reagan republican majority senate first term , coalition house came apart time bush never real support congress real point everybody , everywhere got pork , big corporations guy saw last night leaving convenience store junk food 'd bought food stamps \( spent food stamps junk make week i'm government \) money diverted programs addressing social needs poured weapons industry form cost plus profits contracts , let 's pull old almanac 1980 , total u government budget 590 9 billion dollars 1992 \( est \) 1 trillion dollars , increase approx 884 billion dollars 1980 , national defense cost 133 9 billion dollars 192 307 billion dollars , increase 174 billion dollars leaves increase 710 billion dollars unaccounted \( represented increase 230 \) 1980 , income security \( includes retirement programs , housing , unemployment benefits , believe welfare \) cost 86 5 billion dollars 1992 198 billion dollars , national defense started \( represented increase 230 \) 1980 , federal government spent 32 billion dollars medicare 1992 spent 118 billion dollars \( increase 368 \) 1980 , feds spent 9 billion dollars housing credits subsidies like 1992 87 billion 1980 , health care services research 23 billion dollars 1992 , 94 billion dollars agriculture , 9 billion 17 billion science , 11 billion 16 billion resource conservation 7 billion 20 billion education 14 billion 45 billion veteran benefits 12 billion 33 billion 13 billion 34 billion things see seriously decreased energy category , primarily supply , community development , area disaster relief , two represent loss less 11 billion dollars huge diversion \? order rectify situation must constitutional revision 's stretch current government pushed president create mess , would n't one expect begin equalize pressure gone \? secondly form revision must take account changed role federal government assuming new role positive role want continue see little positive constitution cannot used frustrate democratic process constitution designed frustrate democratic process , voters could absolutely sure getting wanted time happened see putting brakes democratic process inherently bad thing 's riding edge every time pull ballot initiative nonsense gets worse want welfare spending federal government sometimes , perhaps time , people told , , pointed local government attempting prevent constitutional trickery leads constitution brought disrepute phill , would great favor repeating talk politics guns \? methods always found bypass provisions government gets used bypassing provisions bypass others first ammendment cute eliminate violations law eliminating law major reason right guns excluded , implication right equal right free speech dangerous free speech alone dangerous , phill people know mass ownership lethal weapons causes thousands murders year , dangerous conclusion may reach first ammendment may also dangerous mistake ok , phill gotta show clear pattern reduction homicide rates across several countries 'll \( current , mind , , reduction \) note however slippery slope argument right freedom speech chained privilege weaponry danger arises advocates must allowed chain freedom speech cause fall freedom speech falls well actions actions people genuinely interested freedom 's chaining anything freedom speech \? calling freedom \? thirdly importantly want discover mechanism intellectual debate opposed debate consider grave threat loss ability reason political debate anything superficial level objection raise basing case entirely assertion supremacy us constitution currency argument limited currency totem upon based danger different ways different people phill , 're master subtly changing subject n't based argument raw democracy constitution 've tried explain n't good idea time 've referred constitution point n't contain restrictions veto senate appear believe meant , n't make constitution n't contain 41 fillibuster rule believe rule good idea c n't dismiss constitution n't constitution david veal univ tenn div cont education info services group pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu still remember way laughed , day pushed elevator shaft i'm beginning think n't love anymore weird al
magnus acs ohio state edu \( aaron c \) subject race violence nntp posting host top magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university distribution usa lines 29 joe , usual , issue dysfunction , bad values , messed culture easily embraced non african americans comes explaining problems community post , apparently find idea something wrong african americans , value wise , culture wise something , appealing never cease amazed eager non african americans embrace theories problems basically assert something wrong us socio economic factors know help produce high crime levels , like poverty , exists among us large proportion , mean comes discussion african american problems , somehow become exempt types factors , problem laid doorstep dysfunction supposedly nobody attributes crime amongst white americans dysfunction , socioeconomic factors , africa americans , gotta dysfunction basically , think tendency non african americans believe something wrong us exists non african americans n't want deal society deeply biased african americans , 80 problem could possible society deeply racist structured us , effective negative effect us , something wrong us non african americans quick disregard say , busy trying find something wrong us , instead taking good hard look thing say us damage would get angry damn typical peace aaron
gmw0622 venus tamu edu \( mr grinch \) subject limiting govt \( employment \( concentrate \) organization grinchco lines 52 distribution world nntp posting host venus tamu edu summary limited governments versus failed governments news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article 1993apr18 isc br isc br com , steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) writes course , one faces question one government power \( keeps circumscribed \) complex society interest neither capitalists consumers refrain using government power ends apart little without complete answer question , think obvious first step convince people would desirable result still quite lot people feel command economies eastern europe failed due corruption rather essential weaknesses economies , still majority nation favors keeping laws books order send signal would seem society failed government would ideal setting libertarian ideals implemented suppose never seems occur \? fail see feel way first place constant combat n't particularly conducive intellectual theorizing also , tend get invaded come anything like stable society anyway regulation word would n't call vague 'd call elastic regulation necessarily opposing government regulation , libertarians treat every system command economy regulate relatively free markets identical 's one reason many rest us find analysis simplistic umm , distinction vague elastic context aside one positive connotation \? rate , 've steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing data , sure cut uucp ! uunet ! isc br ! thor ! steveh bulls r hofferbert bell 509 838 8826 incidentally , libertarian newsgroup , get away saying , bullshit 're welcome , mr grinch
dyoung ecst csuchico edu \( douglas young \) subject , disaster distribution na organization california state university , chico lines 77 nntp posting host ecst csuchico edu article mea netcom com phil netcom com \( phil ronzone \) writes article 612 vega iii com enrico tmc edu \( russ \) writes article netcom com phil netcom com \( phil ronzone \) writes apparently another member religious left member religious left , right , even center fact n't consider religious probably result flames \) fact phil , leave religion clouds issue religous left worships trees , rivers , planet , hates people religious right worships engines , , , hates people name calling anything claiming truth environmental disaster \? nothing read thread , heard anyone talked , would suggest people fit definition give religious left come , phil prime motivation protecting environment , people , continue live disagree necessary maintaining healthy environment people show environmental disasters n't natural disasters individually far outweigh man made ones russ 's response deleted save space guess missed newspaper articles week exxon presenting \( \) issue incident seems mostly recovered , despite religious left 's cries hundreds years ! \? already repaired old hulk ! ! ! \? wow ! ! ! \) suppose mean alaskan shores devastated accident \? n't seen articles say exactly \? mostly ocean shore life returned \? sands mostly clean \? microbial samples mostly back normal balance \? fish populations mostly returned \? \? , left claimed would take 20 put kuwait oil fires face facts love canal , , environmental disaster , even problem times beach tmi acid rain killing trees problem \? would move three mile island \? would imagine cheap property available ! naturally occurring catastrophic events disasters destroy property \( ie , , \) usually leave toxic wastes prevent people building lives man made disasters \( oil spills , toxic dumping , radioactive waste \) cause death make area far beyond initial event actually people still believe love canal kind environmental disaster weird , eh \? opinions mine , ca n't 'em ! \( 'll rent 'em cheap \) \) \( douglas young \( dyoung ecst csuchico edu \) n't know , seem expect serious discussion net \) \(
pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) subject fillibuster lines 188 organization university tennessee computing center article dscomsa desy de hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) writes article veal 740 utkvm1 utk edu , veal utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) writes senate less powerful house lords , 'd almost state house representatives also \( fact , , british government much greater power american system \) principle , practice yes principle \? less power less power \? british parliament principle absolute power monarch much stability system rests defined clearly case clear abuse one side side act remedy situation two institutions absolute power cute let 's talk practicality , shall \? monarch tried something , would happen \? start social welfare model instead current state motto would better placed plenty state money handed problem distributed basis power congress basis actual need bingo higher governmental ladder less actual need matters , political power concentrated higher levels , people less cloud find reduced effectiveness point illustrated problem well order set school project new york state pay 49 states pork defense contracts , agricultural subsidies etc precise 30 states since need 60 beat filibuster simply leave new york 's education new york \? remain state union capable educating children 's want point redistribution cash poor areas ecconomy rich ones contending state union ample wealth , choose spend , run perfectly acceptable education system \( contend amount money spent sufficient , spent badly \) vice versa n't republican , tell phill republicans also responsible huge increases social programs \? responsible n't like \( contend congress blame democrat republican alike \) society simply writes areas country weak end basket case ecconomy inevitable cycles business act phase produce business cycle others localities experience boom bust cycles outside national trend produce strong ecconomy need ensure bust areas fall bellow level cannot rebuilt worst areas still better europe case , 're talking education industry area collapses us whole still responsibility ensure children area get good education areas us schools closing halfway year lack money yes , live area 're woefully ignorant situation time tennessee 's school districts closing , governor asked 7 5 million dollars celebration license almost breath wanted raise unemployment compensation reduce taxes paid n't know rest country , education problems stem directly two problems , neither lack money state \( btw , tennessee considered tax heaven economy one strongest country see correlation \) 1 \) money spend goes administration average administrator makes two half times average teacher makes , sucks enormous amount revenue 2 \) governor making concerted effort create education crisis order push pet income tax idiotic programs get funded \( like state funds new art county seat \) schools closing 's lack funds 's unwillingness spend appropriate education parental hot button education always first cut , 's easier get people pay children ugly art u constitution nuts bolts document independence high reasoning \( couple examples , though , reasoning power tax , reasoning power grant permits , article , section 8 \) declaration independence cam decade earlier line justification us constitution could argue went broad concepts little spoke eloquently government based consent governed fact little price tea design government would pretty idea bunch guys sit arround designing structure new government little matter british army remained settled anyway continental congress set bylaws n't quite government , means making decisions created \( however low george washington 's opinion \) certain extend believe veto become something n't intended however , also believe inevitable considering abuse power make bills say whatever want say unlike people think n't worrying veto , fine , problem congress almost necessitates abuse congress democratic body whole system allow speak heresy holy democratic orders \? government built non democratic presidency fairly broad powers , including veto system election two year term means members always got recent mandate yes , senate intended act balance much democracy intentionally avoided considered good thing place non democratic blocks action hand period election made 4 years presidential cycle would much less dependence fund raising special interests present long congress something sell , people pay congressmen rake money need \? inherently wrong system action \? historically governemnt action u dealing issues bare minority large minority successful 're position imposing federal power diverse people , federal government got something bare majority words david thinks need 41 votes progressives need 61 , progressives n't want move backward , get benefit 41 states lot people historically laws sort minority effective , especially since usually concentrated wielding federal big stick n't see n't make better argument , people , agree know nobody calls republicans democrats i'm republican i'm republican \) , i'm neither democrat democrat , 've asked several times , 've done answer n't democratic , knew said democratic \? n't true direct democracy , people advocate one , , modification democracy bias action much worse \? david veal univ tenn div cont education info services group pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu still remember way laughed , day pushed elevator shaft i'm beginning think n't love anymore weird al
prb access digex com \( pat \) subject diplomat license plates organization express access online communications usa lines 21 distribution va nntp posting host access digex net article 1993apr13 linus mitre org m23364 mwunix mitre org \( james meritt \) writes automobiles belonging personnel associated embassies various nations diplomatic license plates red , white , blue read dll l letter 's numbers means diplomatic l indicate country years ago actually , teh means registered driver diplomatic immunity means damn well please roads , god protection state department issues xxx plates personnel work embassies n't granted immunity embassies restricted parking embassy street side plates allow use parking areas well restricted lots national state dept , without lot crap pat
v140pxgt ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( daniel b case \) subject eight myths national health insurance \( pt ii \) organization university buffalo lines 147 news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host ubvmsb cc buffalo edu article 1993apr18 news columbia edu , gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) writes difference litigation environment reflected fees lack defensive medicine near absence malpractice really spend less using expensive approach pure insurance really need national health insurance \? would n't make sense find way cut cost malpractice insurance \? maybe 's good thing also read somewhere next impossible canada health system class action suits nearly impossible , ca n't sue provincial health officials part deal using insurance approach like french germans \( hey , n't criticize france germany \? many people take french german college make accusations stick \? \( \) preserve doctors since provincial wings cma ones go bat fee schedule presented , politically bent doctors realized cma would grow strength rather diminish , especially unlike socialized medicine approaches like britain 's national health service oh n't let ama know enough power ask americans whether 'd like doctors' lobby get powerful non life threatening things , market arguments adequately cover certain procedures demand md friends ca n't make living specialists back manitoba due insurance rates wo n't get enough customers cma medical monopoly 's grip doctors licencing \( us \) aside must move larger places however , refute debunking waiting lines urgent routine care , done u consumers reports , health policy studies cited prof dennis e shea usenet , cnn , nyt , etc well , yeah , tell us national defense medical centre outside ottawa theoretically 's limited service personnel , studies 've heard suggested half patients civilians connections n't urgent problem , system annual budgets approved government , keep political considerations medical decisions \? bet 're mp mpp , good friends one , 're put hospital 's urgent care list matter minor problem ok unless 're someone gets bumped list national health insurance mean americans fully insured might settle less \? canada , provincial insurance covers health costs except dental care , , prescription drugs , ambulance service , private hospital rooms , many canadians end buying private insurance policy cover things runs 40 40 month hmm much difference would make figure percentage gnp spent health care dentistry included accounting \? maybe canada spends proportionately much health care course , one thing note canada france germany case , private insurance basic coverage public sector realized keeping low risk high profit extra insurance things like private semi private rooms \( vs ward accomodation \) , dental , glasses , etc corporate personal benefits , 'll nothing want covered basic care point , would n't even consider voucher approach broker universal coverage sell policies make difference federal guidelines market stuff happens health care systems financially collapse bob rae , second least popular man ontario , warned years ago n't stop cross border shopping huge numbers , services expect province wo n't years \( fortunately \( less fortunately retailers western new york \) canadian dollar went back realistic value \) n't say , knew meant ohip would happen warning turned truth \? would private insurers take slack \? 'd obligation course , could eventually make money , say true , 'd loathe \( practice handling basic services , \) free care encourage people run doctor every ache pain \? people get free treatment go doctor hospital third often pay share medical bills still , canadians pay nothing doctor 's lower per person health bill free deductibles copayments \( two things advocate make canadian insurance look like real health insurance actually \) know working alberta , ontario quebec , aware paying health insurance e g , toronto , ohip fees listed pay stub manitoba collect time , annually income tax time \( built tax rate \) fiscal proclaim 's free , along canadian left part brainwashing agenda would free americans would start another revolution pay taxes canadian rates private health insurance industry big powerful kill \? dismantling health segment insurance industry would politically thorny , quiet words one advocate national plan 1 , 200 firms sell 192 billion health insurance 'd put hard fight industry grown since canada shut health insurers , government leaves politicians open lobbyists canada 's parliamentary system health insurance exist canada western europe , n't cover basic care opt canada germany , 'll go result people e , market private insurance realized much money 'd make without risks involved basic insurance \( e g , \) versus deluxe amenities \( e g , call tv replace rental set fritz someone 's private hospital room \) , started pat back social responsibility quebec last spring , consortium private insurers publicly warned thoughts routine , low cost parts province 's public health insurance plan , doubt americans would like giving insurance companies much power half wonder canadian health insurers n't go along provinces federal government years ago knew good chance public system going bust long run , afterwards could clean \( okay , sort contradicts said higher 's another possibility \) 'd added bonus arguing government involvement industry could point failure instead citing theoretical principles
libwca emory edu \( bill anderson \) subject abolish selective service organization emory university , atlanta , ga lines 29 x newsreader tin 1 1 pl3 william fractl tn cornell edu writes article 1993apr15 m5 harvard edu , borden head cfa harvard edu \( dave borden \) writes selective service registration abolished start , draft immoral whether agree , n't one , military experts agree quality armed forces superior volunteer army draftees finally , government us many lists many computers \( irs , social security admistration motor vehicle registries name \) find us needs maintaining yet another list people utter waste money time let 's axe whole department , reduce deficit little bit dave borden borden m5 harvard edu selfish little bastard afraid might sacrafice somthing country someone approve lone \? bad immoral people like current president n't idea country still exists 200 years country still exists 200 years people forced government fight foreign wars \? n't think bill
netcom com \( \) subject kyle k rodney king organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 39 usenet ins cwru edu cleveland freenet edu \( morrison \) writes previous article , kkopp uxh cso uiuc edu \( koppenhoefer kyle cramm \) says thf2 kimbark uchicago edu \( ted frank \) writes article c5lp0y fdk news cso uiuc edu kkopp uxh cso uiuc edu \( koppenhoefer kyle cramm \) writes fact bunch cops putting lives line day day afraid hell large black guy took large amount punishment refused submit \? i'm curious think particular adjective important i'm curious took beign statement cross posted several different news groups , including something along lines alt discrimination look rodney king black large several large black male friends , referred large black men \( faces , \) know , ted , large number , spare try get personal flame wars let say think action cross posting total bs , 're trying start crap hopefully , others see trite little game play along still n't addressed ted 's statement 're waiting yeah , i'm also curious felt compelled remind us guy 's race btw , n't mean imply 're clueless anything , statement hardly benign crystal wind storm , netcom com storm data , michael douglas data life player 's \( long run \)
jfh rpp386 \( john f haugh ii \) subject high speed rail bad reply jfh rpp386 cactus org \( john f haugh ii \) organization river parishes programming , austin tx distribution tx lines 14 article 1993apr13 pony ingres com garrett ingres com \( sky already fell \? \) writes n't see post ca n't comment 02 high speed rail , like like alot would bad see tainted corruption 's speed limit commuter tracks northeast 120mph already something resembles high speed rail country requires massive government subsidies n't need another government john f haugh ii pgp 2 1 ! 's ! cs utexas edu ! rpp386 ! jfh bell \( 512 \) 251 dof 17 's jfh rpp386 cactus org look scheme good dictionary picture joe liberal handout right next stop federal spending cut deficit
steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) subject 're government 're help summary historical examples us constitution organization free barbers , inc lines 76 nntp posting host thor isc br com article 1993apr8 infonode ingr com jima b17d ingr com \( jim albea \) writes article 1993mar24 isc br isc br com , steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) writes ouch , really hurts i'm accused breadth depth historical knowledge i'm unwilling agree economic inequality leads poverty social political instability go read history poverty main engine social instability \( context , 'll put aside religious turmoil , mass , etc \) well , fact matter poverty related social political instability , economic inequality much strongly related virtually major revolutions including england \( revolution \) , france , russia china , revolutions occurred economies undergoing substantial long term growth poverty declining sets revolutions massive inequality coupled perception part bottom social change possible poverty \( \) main engine social instability , typical historical pattern would hold fact , revolutions would far typical nineteenth century since time much deleted gee , jim , 'll check constitution 'll find order promote general welfare ordain establish constitution i'm surprised missed 's right first paragraph would thought would made least preamble almost got right , good try , follow advice preamble constitution read quoted let us forget preamble binding part constitution carries weight law poor tortured paragraph got one unfortunate passages english language witness blowhards like think vague phrases part law land really believe politician give lip service promoting general welfare within limits constitution \? sorry , buddy , blowhards managed include general welfare another portion constitution article section 8 congress shall power lay collect taxes pay debts provide common defence general welfare united states guess wanted make sure everyone understood meant said preamble make sure 've got point , let 's little experiment constitution read follows \? preamble people , promote general welfare , ordain establish constitution united states america constitution federal government shall one function one function provide defense nation noted , constitution n't say , \? government would two functions defense welfare since explicitly includes general welfare defense article , section 8 , guess 'll grant constitutional functions right \? jsh steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing data , sure cut uucp ! uunet ! isc br ! thor ! steveh bulls r hofferbert bell 509 838 8826
steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) subject limiting govt \( employment \( concentrate \) organization isc bunker , olivetti company lines 38 nntp posting host thor isc br com article 1993apr17 tijc02 uucp pjs269 tijc02 uucp \( paul schmidt \) writes steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) writes article 1993apr15 tijc02 uucp pjs269 tijc02 uucp \( paul schmidt \) writes failure libertarianism ideology provide reasonable way restrain actions utopian dreams society would collapse people evil time david bergland agreed people basically evil , last thing 'd want big government staffed evil folks exercising control david bergland agreed freedom seems unleashed creative energies people leads ever higher levels income social progress u n report agreed argument want limited government want unlimited government believe government regulation capitalist economy serves worthwhile ends believe regulation neither desirable empirical grounds justifiable ideological grounds good summary selling labor goods eat buy house essential excercise personal freedoms paul schmidt advocates self government , davy crockett chapter president demonstrates , assume , 're liberal \) steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing data , sure cut uucp ! uunet ! isc br ! thor ! steveh bulls r hofferbert bell 509 838 8826
steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) subject limiting govt \( employment \( concentrate \) summary failed governments organization failed libertarian opportunities , inc lines 24 nntp posting host thor isc br com article venus tamu edu gmw0622 venus tamu edu \( mr grinch \) writes article 1993apr18 isc br isc br com , steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) writes would seem society failed government would ideal setting libertarian ideals implemented suppose never seems occur \? fail see feel way first place constant combat n't particularly conducive intellectual theorizing also , tend get invaded come anything like stable society anyway reason soviet union could n't achieve ideal pure communism hostility surrounding capitalist nations uh huh somehow , sounds familiar , utopian dreams confronted real world mr grinch steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing data , sure cut uucp ! uunet ! isc br ! thor ! steveh bulls r hofferbert bell 509 838 8826
gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) subject eight myths national health insurance \( pt ii \) nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) organization phds hall lines 156 v140pxgt ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( daniel b case \) writes gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) writes difference litigation environment reflected fees lack defensive medicine near absence malpractice really spend less using expensive approach pure insurance maybe 's good thing also read somewhere next impossible canada health system class action suits nearly impossible , ca n't sue provincial health officials since doctors private system insurance plan , litigation would involve insurance fund lawyers work contingency , sue malpractice 'd better sure winning cover fees likewise , doctor subject suit , 's time sweat since provincial wings cma ones go bat fee schedule presented , politically bent doctors realized cma would grow strength rather diminish , especially unlike socialized medicine approaches like britain 's national health service oh n't let ama know enough power ask americans whether 'd like doctors' lobby get powerful weeks ago , president canadian wrote letter nyt 's advert repeating old trash significant ama cma organizations would done without approval ama cronies well , yeah , tell us national defense medical centre outside ottawa theoretically 's limited service personnel , studies 've heard suggested half patients civilians connections n't urgent serves purpose bethesda naval hospital since hospitals provide everything , maybe stuff others n't \? \( ottawa 's population quarter million , include surrounding counties \) problem , system annual budgets approved government , keep political considerations medical decisions \? bet 're mp mpp , good friends one , 're put hospital 's urgent care list matter minor problem ok unless 're someone gets bumped list people influence get way system , american european 's golden rule gold makes rules \( annual budgets , actually annual grants facilities \( e g , , , etc \) given hospitals private nonprofit foundations \( btw , problem aggressive profit hospitals like french , use approach paris region almost many people canada market much diverse \) rest made billings patients use services national health insurance mean americans fully insured might settle less \? canada , provincial insurance covers health costs except dental care , , prescription drugs , ambulance service , private hospital rooms , many canadians end buying private insurance policy cover things runs 40 40 month hmm much difference would make figure percentage gnp spent health care dentistry included accounting \? maybe canada spends proportionately much health care gdp figures combined public private expenditures total , compiled use methods oecd yield 13 14 figure u happens health care systems financially collapse \? collecting premiums i'm advocate copayments like french system order make look like real insurance private doctors hospitals still insurance \( \) disappears , appeared bob rae , second least popular man ontario , warned years ago n't stop cross border shopping huge numbers , services expect province wo n't years one thing , think bob rae idiot n't say , knew meant ohip ohip comes separate premiums paycheck player wants spend money things health insurance high taxes high spending health insurance , separate optional , spent manner every party \) ohip health insurance plan provide kind health care , private doctors would private insurers take slack \? 'd obligation course , could eventually make money , say true , 'd loathe \( practice handling basic services , \) companies providing extra insurance subsidiaries american companies , parents provide full insurance regardless , firms north easily turn cable tv see well american firms involved basic coverage private firms making much money gotten rid basic coverage run around selves back cooperation providing extras people deserve private insurance realized much money 'd make without risks involved basic insurance \( e g , \) versus deluxe amenities \( e g , call tv replace rental set fritz someone 's private hospital room \) , started pat back social responsibility quebec last spring , consortium private insurers publicly warned thoughts routine , low cost parts province 's public health insurance plan , doubt americans would like giving insurance companies much power half wonder canadian health insurers n't go along provinces federal government years ago knew good chance public system going bust long run , afterwards could clean \( okay , sort contradicts said higher 's another possibility \) 'd added bonus arguing government involvement industry could point failure instead citing theoretical principles agree win win situation right , seems bigger , look full coffers friends mba class still flown job interviews individually insurance firms london , , \( canada 's insurance capitol la hartford \) along generous expense privileges year despite ongoing post recession blues gld je souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go ! ! ! gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
ervan rice edu \( ervan darnell \) subject limiting govt \( employment \( concentrate \) originator ervan dawn cs rice edu reply ervan rice edu \( ervan darnell \) organization rice university lines 35 article 1993apr18 isc br isc br com , steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) writes article rigel tamu edu gmw0622 rigel tamu edu \( mr grinch \) writes article 1993apr15 170731 8797 isc br isc br com , steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) writes course , one faces question one government power \( keeps circumscribed \) complex society interest neither capitalists consumers refrain using government power ends apart little difficult problem obviously good solution one approach simply try move political opinion hope new libertarian consensus lasts another approach try amend constitution original constitution restrained u government economic intervention 100 150 years , depending one wants count first amendment , though weakened many ways , still government \( particularly state local \) , even though many particular issues majority favor censorship think libertarians would happy another 100 years restraint via amendment two \( think 's likely happen \) necessarily mr hendricks , posters seem see problem libertarianism , cannot stable might true , objection libertarianism per se libertarian political consensus forms decade two falls apart , would back unlike case socialism socialist consensus held fell apart would leave us , instead lots bureaucracy would hard get rid , tyranny end condition strong socialist consensus ervan darnell ervan cs rice edu
steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) subject malpractice issue \( 8 myths national health \) summary malpractice insurance litigation n't explain us health probs organization free barbers , inc lines 46 nntp posting host thor isc br com article acsu buffalo edu v140pxgt ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( daniel b case \) writes article 1993apr18 news columbia edu , gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) writes difference litigation environment reflected fees lack defensive medicine near absence malpractice really spend less using expensive approach pure insurance really need national health insurance \? would n't make sense find way cut cost malpractice insurance \? would malpractice defensive medicine main factors explaining us health care costs , n't although gary correct noting malpractice related problems greater us canada , means account overall difference health care costs \( account somewhat larger portion difference physicians' gross income two countries \) facts malpractice insurance awards account less 1 total health care costs us 1991 , according survey physicians conducted national medical journal physicians averaged paying 3 7 practice receipts malpractice insurance malpractice insurance premiums malpractice awards peaked 1985 've declined significantly since time , health care costs increased period history far defensive medicine concerned , ama estimates total impact 7 billion per year 's 8 total current increase health care costs estimate group could expected impacts defensive medicine health care small problem overall scheme things , however , clinton record long time favoring md 's malpractice suits follow procedures set specialties would eliminate , frivolous suits retaining ability sue true malpractice jsh steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing data , sure cut uucp ! uunet ! isc br ! thor ! steveh bulls r hofferbert bell 509 838 8826
thf2 kimbark uchicago edu \( ted frank \) subject kyle k rodney king reply thf2 midway uchicago edu organization university chicago distribution usa lines 26 article hp4 news cso uiuc edu kkopp uxh cso uiuc edu \( koppenhoefer kyle cramm \) writes thf2 kimbark uchicago edu \( ted frank \) writes article c5lp0y fdk news cso uiuc edu kkopp uxh cso uiuc edu \( koppenhoefer kyle cramm \) writes fact bunch cops putting lives line day day afraid hell large black guy took large amount punishment refused submit \? i'm curious think particular adjective important i'm curious took beign statement cross posted several different news groups , including something along lines alt discrimination \? saw original post alt discrimination post cross posted three groups followup cross posted two three \( omitting soc motss \) , instead engaging meta discussion topic , could answer question posed \? statement beign \( ! \? \) , trouble politely responding polite query ted frank thf2 kimbark uchicago edu i'm sorry , card says moops u c law school standard disclaimers
gvg tek com \( michael p anderson \) subject temper tantrums 1960 's distribution usa organization grass valley group , grass valley , ca lines 28 ok phil , 're right far evidence suggests nixon victim kennedy disgust blob dash crushing cia fbi 's say kennedy would n't created version american friendly fascism \? unfortunately however , n't evidence far nation 's citizens 12 hours total 4 , 000 hours nixon 's tapes 's rest babies \? alluded evidence suggest nixon cronies , including george bush , aware plot murder kennedy shot dallas ask local charges crime must ask , phil putz , shit finally comes old men , would appreciate privilege sticking pole ass parading main street sign chest apologist american fascist regime circa 1944 2010 \( 's lovely ian image \) , ought get reaction unless i'm killfile week mpa
gvg tek com \( michael p anderson \) subject temper tantrums 1960 's distribution usa organization grass valley group , grass valley , ca lines 11 article optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes broke still open serious question tape suggest something kennedy assasination let 's hear tapes real soon , shall \? mpa
visser convex com \( lance visser \) subject abolish selective service nntp posting host dhostwo convex com organization engineering , convex computer corp , richardson , tx , usa x disclaimer message written user convex computer corp opinions expressed user necessarily convex lines 46 dave borden \( borden head cfa harvard edu \) wrote selective service registration abolished start , draft immoral whether agree , n't one , military experts agree quality armed forces superior volunteer army draftees finally , government us many lists many computers \( irs , social security admistration motor vehicle registries name \) find us needs maintaining yet another list people utter waste money time let 's axe whole department , reduce deficit little bit gridlock talk another relic past selective service system creates jobs investment future america whats wrong \? need jobs point recovery , economy generated 10 billion jobs since , government step help shutting selective service would cost good jobs ca n't really need involve selective service closely directed manner need selective service involved environmental protection , high speed rail , commuter aircraft , civil rights , national service health care every dollar put selective service get us 10 less spending future really believe think selective service long past due creation cabinet position beyond hope , get back america 's side start part change bill needs support economic stimulus health care reform need devote energies fighting gridlock supporting change get team , evil banished washington time complaint past neccessary remember , bill clinton cares may someday even town meeting city appropriate sort person , phrase questions properly show proper respect awe , might chance ask mr , president question person
neal magpie linknet com \( neal \) subject violence organization manes associates , nyc distribution usa x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 28 glad recognize people engage denial repression , acknowledge united states , people , recognized repression taken place , loss outright civil liberties constitutional protections citizens recognition taken form civil rights law \( let 's discuss federal level \) , 18 usc 241 et seq , 42 usc 1981 et seq , et al recognition repression , times manifested form collective guilt , want people recognize denial though said white people numerically commit crimes united states , white people majority , also said black people commit disproportionate amount crime united states , relation numbers population views experiences police officer large metropolitan area , citizen unless people account behavior , behavior immediate community , nothing improve regards , neal
hampton umcc umcc umich edu \( kevin \) subject top ten excuses slick willie 's record setting disapproval rati organization umcc , ann arbor , mi lines 23 nntp posting host umcc umcc umich edu article emoryu1 cc emory edu libwca emory edu \( bill anderson \) writes shapiro sofbas enet dec com \( steve shapiro \) writes oh , btw , william jefferson clinton , 's really fail understand use name insult feel adopted implies sort moral failing \? , 's sign middle class ask george herbert walker bush 's full name \? , , \? even quayle period lasted full 48 hours chosen bush 's running mate kevin j vaporware engineer 2nd class president wants e mail hampton ais org us make tax deductible \? compuserve , larry wright
gmw0622 venus tamu edu \( mr grinch \) subject limiting govt \( employment \( concentrate \) organization grinchco lines 29 distribution world nntp posting host venus tamu edu summary failed governments news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article 1993apr18 isc br isc br com , steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) writes article venus tamu edu gmw0622 venus tamu edu \( mr grinch \) writes article 1993apr18 isc br isc br com , steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) writes would seem society failed government would ideal setting libertarian ideals implemented suppose never seems occur \? fail see feel way first place constant combat n't particularly conducive intellectual theorizing also , tend get invaded come anything like stable society anyway reason soviet union could n't achieve ideal pure communism hostility surrounding capitalist nations uh huh somehow , sounds familiar , utopian dreams confronted real world steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com steve , 're one suggested failed government ideal proving ground , never felt way first place quite contrary , think better proving ground would someplace already governemnt would prevent outright acts agression , yet strong spirit individualism initiative someplace like texas \) mr grinch
kkopp uxh cso uiuc edu \( koppenhoefer kyle cramm \) subject kyle k rodney king distribution usa organization university illinois urbana lines 54 thf2 kimbark uchicago edu \( ted frank \) writes article hp4 news cso uiuc edu kkopp uxh cso uiuc edu \( koppenhoefer kyle cramm \) writes thf2 kimbark uchicago edu \( ted frank \) writes article c5lp0y fdk news cso uiuc edu kkopp uxh cso uiuc edu \( koppenhoefer kyle cramm \) writes fact bunch cops putting lives line day day afraid hell large black guy took large amount punishment refused submit \? i'm curious think particular adjective important i'm curious took beign statement cross posted several different news groups , including something along lines alt discrimination \? saw original post alt discrimination post cross posted three groups followup cross posted two three \( omitting soc motss \) , instead engaging meta discussion topic , could answer question posed \? statement beign \( ! \? \) , trouble politely responding polite query well , n't think query exactly polite , try give polite responce something net , goes black descriptive adjective describes mr king many newspaper , radio , tv news reports seen , adjective commonly front name never seen anyone complain use adjective used benign manner say mr king good black ! know mr king would make without evidence effect used purely descriptive adjective manner many \( \) news people used past entire second trial race , ted n't feel compelled discuss mr king 's racial background , mr king white would second trial probably saying beating would occurred white , extremely difficult call make possible case , definately still think actions crap , ted far divisive using adjective non manner would happier used \? , really lost world pc already instrumental getting one persons net access revoked , wonder sent copy message sys admin plea worthy posting way went inquiry makes believe anything
mvp netcom com \( mike van pelt \) subject anyone interested facts \? 's organization netcom online communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 19 oops , forgot set read permission 's fixed ftp netcom com login anonymous password email address cd pub mvp binary get clinton zip need pkzip 2 x latest net zip un deflate economic stats since day one , plus myriad ways slick willie gang 535 preparing us ron brown 's desk , distortion pro democrat , believe \? let 's face , comes utilities , microsoft mike van pelt performed well savings loan mvp netcom com guys , remember , put backup restore mvp com mention hard disk lincoln spector
gmw0622 venus tamu edu \( mr grinch \) subject limiting govt \( employment \( concentrate \) organization grinchco lines 73 distribution world nntp posting host venus tamu edu summary feasibility considered news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article 1993apr18 isc br isc br com , steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) writes i'm sure n't consider option one suggests analysis left regulators fact , inventing government movement provides cost benefit approach analysis public spending libertarians would well learn okay , let try explain one votes creature senator , worse yet , president , one votes specific policies general package must cover issues 4 6 years , one 's influence highly diluted might add , even one free vote individual regulations , vast amount time required considering particular regulation , combined small chance one 's vote making difference , would make unreasonable expect voter make intelligent decision respect specific regulations sorry , strikes feasible approach feasible wholesale attack government regulation licensing treats cutting hair practicing medicine equivalent tasks i'm sure mean feasible case mean impossible , merely would undesirable fact \? actually , areas public spending strike generating substantial support among libertarians police defense 2 four saw fit mention , education minors always another possibility , since minors generally considered responsible make decisions adults \( interesting aside committed libertarians claim principle non coercion , areas public spending frequently support involve hiring people guns hmmm \) say surprising , yet fact necessary consequence libertarian philosophy non functions dealt privately , therefore follows functions remaining state ones perhaps may suggest consider revolutionaries frequently generate support acting protectors , mothers children governments ignore people grounds n't much fear peril much likely 's drunken teenagers groups likely worse revolution unlikely event missed earlier sarcasm , let say directly idea programs social security afdc considered defense \( idea advanced ths newsgroups \) absurd lie unworthy consideration seriously dispute \? n't want seem patronizing , still seem laboring delusion socialized economic system reasonably intelligent honest persons \( like \) make decisions feel third party added transaction every bit likely ignorant corrupt buyer seller n't expect agree , explain feel i'm wrong \? mr grinch
chloupek ohstpy mps ohio state edu subject nc vs hunt \( marine gay bashing wilmington nc \) verdict organization ohio state university , department physics lines 57 article senator bedfellow mit edu , wdstarr athena mit edu \( william december starr \) writes article 1993apr14 lynx dac northeastern edu , tfarrell lynx dac northeastern edu \( thomas farrell \) said good case \? f king good case \? defense lawyer asked victim questions like kind sexual participate \? think made good case \? \? \? \? \? speaking someone 's six weeks 6 , 900 tuition bill away becoming unemployed law degree , 'd really like see transcript trial 'd especially like know happened immediately defense attorney asked question \( assuming reports accurate i'm accusing tom farrell making anything , sort case garbled misquotes , false rumors urban legends like \) 'd nice think prosecutor objected \( irrelevant , prejudicial , inflammatory take pick \) judge upheld objection hear question asked radio news update case \( talking ongoing trial audio clips \) immediately defense attorney asked question , objection ! heard background clip ended point n't know objection upheld ca n't imagine nc bad arresting officer said bastards told purpose hoped victim would die , think defense made good case \? \? \? \? \? wonder 're losing ! 're trying win ! , 'd like see transcript 'd read latter bit news media \( arresting officer testifying one defendants calmly asked condition homo said hoped 'd die \) first 've heard officer testifying one defendants actually said anything , let alone purpose n't hear audio clip heard reported number times news stories trial purpose thing stretching , think something like coming somebody else better second point , feel free clarify frank frank r chloupek chloupek ohstpy mps ohio state edu department physics ohio state university \( ohio state university \) one hard fast rule place party somebody else 's place p j o'rourke
peri cco caltech edu \( michal leah peri \) subject new study gay percentage organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 11 nntp posting host sandman caltech edu n't new study asked engaged homosexual intercourse within last two years whereas kinsey asked ever engaged thought engaging homosexual activity sort like difference yogurt morning allergic lactose michal impressive amounts material accreted manner
zooid guild org subject anita hill giving pubic hairs \? ! oh please ! prove ! ! x theodore kaldis organization zoo ids lines 100 kaldis romulus rutgers edu \( theodore kaldis \) writes article zooid guild org zooid guild org \( \) writes j wondering clinton administration much trouble finding suitable nominee post attorney general , obviously superior candidate refer , course , prof anita hill michael friedman probably pick republicans investigate rumors sometimes returned papers students couple pubic hairs inserted pages i'm hardly one prof hill 's biggest fans , find hard believe could please supply \( post , preferably \) proof , ie , newspaper articles documenting allegations , etc \? well , ignorance , given 're canadian i'm complete loss interested , given american issue properly absolutely concern actually , interest gender issues limited international boundaries indeed , often exchange information americans issues concern us , countries event , answer question , following taken david brock 's article , real anita hill , published march 1992 issue american spectator taken page 27 ah someone mentioned journal , gave information bizarre incident alleged happened school year 1983 84 oral roberts university , according sworn affidavit , dated october 13 , 1991 , filed senate judiciary committee , lawrence , lawyer tulsa , recounted following shortly class begun , professor hill gave us written assignment completed duly turned assignment passed class marked professor , sitting next fellow students jeffrey mark stewart upon opening assignments reviewing grades comments made anita hill , found ten twelve short black pubic hairs pages assignment glanced jeff 's assignment saw similar pubic hairs work time made statement either low opinion work graded assignment bathroom mark stewart overheard conversation said similar pubic hairs assignment also became standing joke among many students remainder year classes students class confirmed story says could n't certain hairs pubic , said thought unlikely could come hill 's head , since short , coarse , curly , hill hair head straightened another student saw hair , want identified , said origins know see satisfy , yes , thank , though really curious never came \( least saw , canada , cnn , sent \) thomas hearings surely , one would think claim sexually harassed , would great deal less credibility could shown guilty regard sworn statements given u senate committee equivalent toilet paper \? depends \) \( instance , sworn statements warren commission , yes , would say statements better toilet paper , used \) , cases , answer would \) , zooid guild org neil hull zooid bbs , toronto , ontario zoo ids rule \( 416 \) 322 solve , install peter j , b \( upei \) slmr 2 1a scott ,
steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) subject limiting govt \( employment \( concentrate \) summary limiting libertarians organization free barbers , inc lines 100 nntp posting host thor isc br com article venus tamu edu gmw0622 venus tamu edu \( mr grinch \) writes article 1993apr18 isc br isc br com , steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) writes okay , let try explain one votes creature senator , worse yet , president , one votes specific policies general package must cover issues 4 6 years , one 's influence highly diluted might add , even one free vote individual regulations , vast amount time required considering particular regulation , combined small chance one 's vote making difference , would make unreasonable expect voter make intelligent decision respect specific regulations i'm afraid 've lost thread n't suggest government regulations subject n't follow comments sorry , strikes feasible approach feasible wholesale attack government regulation licensing treats cutting hair practicing medicine equivalent tasks i'm sure mean feasible case mean impossible , merely would undesirable fact \? mean ideology treats government regulation equally undesirable seeks abolish regulations unlikely draw support among miniscule portion electorate furthermore , suggesting plan feasible industrial society weight litigation misery would produce would effectively crush productive effort actually , areas public spending strike generating substantial support among libertarians police defense \( interesting aside committed libertarians claim principle non coercion , areas public spending frequently support involve hiring people guns hmmm \) say surprising , yet fact necessary consequence libertarian philosophy non functions dealt privately , therefore follows functions remaining state ones , i'm surprised think 's interesting one hand libertarians assume limited government decreed , yet posit entire government made people carry guns \( realize many libertarians assume government fully armed citizenry , worth noting widespread civilian ownership guns necessarily prevent establishment totalitarian government , e g iraq \) perhaps may suggest consider revolutionaries frequently generate support acting protectors , mothers children governments ignore people grounds n't much fear peril much likely 's drunken teenagers groups likely worse revolution unlikely event missed earlier sarcasm , let say directly idea programs social security afdc considered defense \( idea advanced ths newsgroups \) absurd lie unworthy consideration seriously dispute \? yup , sure since also support constitutional requirement government provide general welfare \( article section 8 \) , i'm willing justify programs basis n't want seem patronizing , still seem laboring delusion socialized economic system reasonably intelligent honest persons \( like \) make decisions feel third party added transaction every bit likely ignorant corrupt buyer seller n't expect agree , explain feel i'm wrong \? well , first place , n't support socialized economic system think within limits capitalism fine idea case third party likely ignorant corrupt buyer seller multitudes examples statement demonstrably false regulation stock market transactions provide reasonable basis buyers avoid fraud one example jsh mr grinch steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing data , sure cut uucp ! uunet ! isc br ! thor ! steveh bulls r hofferbert bell 509 838 8826
an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) subject bush 's wi \( clinton 's wiretapping initiative organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 25 reply an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu previous article , garrett ingres com \( sky already fell \? \) says article 9304161803 aa23713 inet gw 2 pa dec com , blh uiboise idbsu edu \( broward l horne \) writes guess strength n't math clinton n't president 6 months words , 's wiretapping initiative 're right , diff eq nevertheless , would suggest difference proposed bill , stalled congress executive order , throats disagree \? strongly urge consider moving savings overseas , protected bank accounts , still able \? went post office friday , got passport apps savings already converted
wdstarr athena mit edu \( william december starr \) subject violence organization northeastern law , class '93 lines 20 distribution usa nntp posting host nw12 326 1 mit edu reply neal magpie linknet com \( neal \) article magpie linknet com , neal magpie linknet com \( neal \) said views experiences police officer large metropolitan area , citizen unless people account behavior , behavior immediate community , nothing improve wait minute agree people take responsibility behavior \( assume 's meant word account \) , also behavior immediate community \? first , immediate talking , secondly , lot trouble theory social behavior justice charges anyone duty taking responsibility accounting actions different person william december starr wdstarr athena mit edu
elf halcyon com \( elf sternberg \) subject new study gay percentage organization , lines 35 distribution world nntp posting host nwfocus wa com comments originator elf halcyon com article 1993apr16 8045 magnus acs ohio state edu rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu \( ryan c scharfy \) writes actually , bet gay bi men promiscuous gay men , could option living straight life , social pressures , probably would least try geez , , ryan \? proposed theory months ago let 's take one step , even , surveys show , 33 men homosexual encounter , must even larger percentage people homosexual erotic fantasies less 10 population gay , say people n't identify gay demonstrated gay potential obviously , large chunk people chose \( , accurately , forced choose force religion social sanction \) put feelings aside , heterosexual obviously , cramer kaldis fall category people ones hung choice obviously , since chose , everyone must , homosexuals perversion choosing go along society dictated course , i'm awful perverts chose , admit heterosexual met right man chose indulge potential take ! elf ! ! ! elf halcyon com \( elf sternberg \) purpose writing inflate weak ideas , obscure pure reasoning , inhibit clarity little pratice , writing intimidating fog ! bill 's calvin
wdstarr athena mit edu \( william december starr \) subject abolish selective service organization northeastern law , class '93 lines 18 nntp posting host nw12 326 1 mit edu reply william fractl tn cornell edu article fitz tc cornell edu , william fractl tn cornell edu said response dave borden selfish little bastard afraid might sacrafice somthing country someone approve lone \? bad immoral people like current president n't idea country still exists 200 years william reason country still stands 200 years uses military conscription force young men fight causes n't believe strongly enough volunteer military service support , perhaps fact country still standing good news william december starr wdstarr athena mit edu
an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) subject clinton 's wiretapping initiative organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 49 reply an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu previous article , helfman aero org \( robert helfman \) says article 9304161803 aa23713 inet gw 2 pa dec com blh uiboise idbsu edu \( broward l horne \) writes look newsgroup , able find clinton 's proposed wiretapping initiative computer networks telephone systems 'initiative congress least past 6 months , guise fbi wiretapping bill kind brainless posted garbage \? would kind brainless n't understand difference proposed bill , blocked congress executive order , issued clinton , throats , let give course thinking order create appearance low interest rates , uncle sam shifted debt long term short term effect , uncle sam transformed federal goverment one giant l , waiting blow short term rates rise interest payments deficit rise uncle sammy borrow causing short term rates rise uncle sammy gets caught positive feedback loop options \) raise taxes truly amount ii \) make truly spending cuts results \) large numbers pissed citizens results ii \) large numbers pissed citizens uncle sammy taken initiative pre use communication foster nation wide , uprising
thf2 kimbark uchicago edu \( ted frank \) subject kyle k rodney king reply thf2 midway uchicago edu organization university chicago distribution usa lines 31 article m15 news cso uiuc edu kkopp uxh cso uiuc edu \( koppenhoefer kyle cramm \) writes thf2 kimbark uchicago edu \( ted frank \) writes article c5lp0y fdk news cso uiuc edu kkopp uxh cso uiuc edu \( koppenhoefer kyle cramm \) writes fact bunch cops putting lives line day day afraid hell large black guy took large amount punishment refused submit \? i'm curious think particular adjective important black descriptive adjective describes mr king many newspaper , radio , tv news reports seen , adjective commonly front name never seen anyone complain use adjective used benign manner say mr king good black ! know mr king would make without evidence effect used purely descriptive adjective manner many \( \) news people used past one questioning whether mr king black question arises whether king 's race make police officers afraid hell statement seems imply cops different standard large black guys large guys general two posts later n't understand anyone pointed use adjective almost informative original use ted frank thf2 kimbark uchicago edu i'm sorry , card says moops u c law school standard disclaimers
drieux wetware com \( drieux , drieux \) subject history , dangerous nntp posting host vladimir wetware com reply drieux wetware com organization castle wetware philosopher sniper lines 43 article usenet ucs indiana edu , bronze ucs indiana edu \( maurice \) writes article 1993apr12 alleg edu \( jon meyer \) writes article 1993apr5 nwnexus wa com pyotr halcyon com \( peter hampe \) writes drieux wetware com \( drieux , drieux \) writes pps still call end clinton 's illegal war somalia \? \? \? \? \? hold tex 's war everybody knows part \? yeah , sure created starvation put yep sure brainwashed media , n't \? probably way reagan way \? bet people never even heard somalia , reagan administration ! ok boys girls , war' \? \? \? \? money raised band aid covered much cost soviet client state replace catagory weapon system lost aforementioned war \? joke arm world really funny \? station designation op area \? primary threat targets area ciao drieux hands big sea comedy ! hands big sea comedy ! last call wild humour lemmings
yfn ysu edu \( franklin jordan \) subject many homosexuals \? organization youngstown state youngstown free net lines 28 nntp posting host yfn ysu edu tired debate many gays ! arguments basically worthless , imho would really matter millions people regularly denied access housing , employment , personal security even one \? death threats , happen know personal experience gay people far likely receive based political even personal philosophies related issue sexual orientation week goes personally one friends physically verbally harrassed even appearing gay everyone certain rights current form government theory , yet every day gay people victimized local governments , police force , \( part \) uninformed ignorant public democracy \? n't think society 's sense justice judged basis treatment people make society people yes , includes gays , lesbians , bisexuals whose crimes victims , varied diverse society wich part frank jordan c c c gay arab unite ! ! !
rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu \( ryan c scharfy \) subject good neighbor political hypocrisy test nntp posting host top magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 73 article netcom com steveth netcom com \( steve thomas \) wri tes article 1993apr18 magnus acs ohio state edu rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu \( ryan c scharfy \) writes social problem , however great , worth destroying freedom america destruction freedom never answer social problem ca n't even walk street night alone america drug freedom ass ryan ca n't walk street safely \? somebody jump behind shadow , , sell drugs \? hardly mug hand , 's certainly possible walking part metropolitan area read underground economy must pursue fantasy crime derived underground economies , may safe place unless course 're buy drugs explained wod major cause large scale crime america head guardian angles agrees legalize drugs watch violent crimes significantly decrease , well , think 'll go take walk tonight alone feel safe hope fda fbi dea batf n't back apartment confiscating property found phone number written phone booth also used drug dealer yeah buddy , happens time tell , every really happened \? 's thought sense , n't feel safe i'm honest , law abiding citizen \( drug laws included , \) , fear government fear criminals \? foolish freedom ass founding fathers \( would thrown prison today 's drug laws \) mind problems come pale comparison fact fiber country us constitution destroyed good would must ask , part \? even wod actually reduced crime created new class criminals , headed gang 's current leader bill clinton dea , etc private armies answer directly president possess advanced weapons technology sound familiar anybody \? support mein clinton \? hmmmmmm \? seem come current adminstration eager even power \? \( power dangerous kind , \) ask drugs stay illegal n't think 's much ask ryan
rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu \( ryan c scharfy \) subject drugs legalized , \? nntp posting host top magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 32 article senator bedfellow mit edu wdstarr athena mit edu \( wil liam december starr \) writes article 1993apr18 magnus acs ohio state edu , rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu \( ryan c scharfy \) said however , legalizing sticking drugs gas stations bought like cigarettes plain silly ryan c scharfy , government could adopt radical probably unamerican idea citizens free live lives wish , simply cocaine , marijuana , heroin , lsd , etc please explain idea allowing recreational drugs bought like cigarettes plain silly , works fine nicotine wdstarr yeah , cancer pretty cool , n't ryan , please explain lack thereof cancer relevant discussion legalization currently illegal recreational drugs matter , please explain 's even relevant discussion currently legal recreational drugs tobacco wdstarr said worked well tobacco \( ca n't spell worth damn \) look , getting ridiculous , first , think tobacco legal anybody ca n't see difference tobacco marijuana got high ryan
system garlic sbs com \( anthony pelliccio \) subject nc vs hunt \( marine gay bashing wilmington nc \) verdict organization 's italian kitchen excellence operating network x newsreader rusnews v1 01 lines 47 kkopp uxh cso uiuc edu \( koppenhoefer kyle cramm \) writes tfarrell lynx dac northeastern edu \( thomas farrell \) writes funny , 've seen lot 10 15 seconds video , still think police involved guilty n't think 's excuse could possibly come would make ok n't care rodney king satan , 's excuse , whether black wanted beat somebody arresting another entirely separate question insufficient information make kind conclusion fact bunch cops putting lives n line day day afraid hell large black guy took large amount punishment refused submit \? oh yeah , watch start video king got prone postion charge cops \? sorry , video cuts sit watch start finish agree police may carried bit far rodney king angel either n't think guilty verdicts returned i'm sure know handed guilty verdicts two officers 's quite simple really , compromise avoid rioting places minorities think 's right riot hate say , would liked see riot everyone prepared would open season skin even slightly brown hey , motto , n't fuck stuff n't get killed 's simple tony anthony pelliccio , ae yes , read right , system garlic sbs com man went code \( ! \) extra flame sysadmin exactly one year ! calm sig !
dos major panix com \( dave \) subject drugs legalized , \? \( good neighbor \) organization department redundancy department lines 22 wdstarr athena mit edu \( william december starr \) writes however , legalizing sticking drugs gas stations bought like cigarettes plain silly plus , never heard recommended dosage drugs like crack , ecstasy , meth lsd 60 minute report said worked cocaine cigarettes , pot heroin , government could adopt radical probably unamerican idea citizens free live lives wish , simply cocaine , marijuana , heroin , lsd , etc please explain idea allowing recreational drugs bought like cigarettes plain silly , works fine nicotine i'm favor drug legalization , see problems hope people disposed would simply overdose quickly , done , making mess let get straight medical treatment costs much inefficient , 're going let government make better \?
neal magpie linknet com \( neal \) subject race violence organization manes associates , nyc distribution usa x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 8 replied message , however , listed new topic title violence possibly line noise error caused post new topic see 100 regards , neal
mike gordian com \( michael thomas \) subject role national news media inflaming passions organization gordian costa mesa , ca distribution ca lines 13 article elroy jpl nasa gov , carlos beowulf jpl nasa gov \( carlos carrion \) writes come conclusion tv stations la want riot happen verdict comes surprising \? times get way last year michael thomas \( mike gordian com \) n't think bambi eyes get flame thrower hobbes calvin usnail irvine ave santa ana heights , ca , \( 714 \) 850 \( 714 \) 850 \( fax \)
rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu \( ryan c scharfy \) subject good neighbor political hypocrisy test nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 23 article stevethc5jgcr 1ht netcom com steveth netcom com \( steve thomas \) wri tes try justify war drugs , dare ! friend mine smoke pot every day last tuesday took 5 hits acid still trouble aiming bowl takes dump n't , seen results boy , really wish cut drug war people screwed head steve thomas steveth com ryan
blh uiboise idbsu edu \( broward l horne \) subject national sales tax , movie x received usenet pa dec com id thu , 15 apr 93 07 42 23 0700 x received inet gw 2 pa dec com id aa05233 thu , 15 apr 93 07 42 12 0700 x received uiboise idbsu edu \( 16 6 16 2 \) id wed , 14 apr 93 10 02 10 0600 x talk politics misc usenet x cc alt politics clinton usenet x mailer elm revision 66 25 lines 54 well , seems national sales tax gotten cnn news logo ! cool means 'll seeing often man , sure glad quit working \( taking seriously \) 1990 kept busting ass , watching time go , frustrated , 'd pretty damn mad yeah ! free health care ! oh , ! heh heh bill makes feel like dancing ! amazing predictions incredible ! take back 20th , incredible predicted 1 , 000 per middle class taxpayer new taxes national sales tax , predictions ! \) nst raised 3 5 1996 ooops already okay , nst raised 5 7 1996 ii \) unemployment rise ! iii \) tax revenues decline deficit increase ! 'll get another deficit reduction package 1997 ! everyone dance sing ! yup i'm gonna glancing watch bail 1 pm , lake hang sit sun take easy ! \) yeah ! wish e mail address total gumby saying clinton n't propose nst paraphrase hilary clinton raise taxes middle class pay programs paraphrase bill clinton raise taxes middle class pay programs
mcgoy unicorn acs ttu edu \( david mcgaughey \) subject high speed rail bad organization texas tech university distribution tx lines 32 cs utexas edu \( brian keith \) writes weeks ago found politics going texas bullet train , appalled apparent tactics push thing without public say whatsoever , wrote short editorial thing posted , hoping get discussion suppose editorials n't asking general opinion net proposed high speed train think \? personally think stupid idea , people somewhere going get rich deal opinion society whose economy primarily based capitalism , role government provide goods services need providing general public 's good government supply necessary goods services impossible private enterprise \( individual \) make money providing agree posts train probably make money rely heavily state tax dollars question , think , becomes , general public , need train \? certainly , ever , need train , texas inexpensive air travel provided dallas houston , n't think people dallas houston need either david mcgaughey texas tech university
cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) subject limiting govt \( employment \( concentrate \) organization stratus computer , inc lines 23 distribution world nntp posting host rocket sw stratus com article encore com , rcollins ns encore com \( roger collins \) writes look whole picture , randomly picked libertarian positions government allowed use non initiated force achieve goals , special interest influence government use non initiated force behalf either government force available , n't libertarian position government use force someone else uses force first even first force directed government , one citizens true , safeguards government claiming initiation force part really response \? \( like burning maine , gulf incident , assault waco \? \) ask argue , understand \( followups alt politics libertarian \) cdt rocket sw stratus com believe speak company , cdt vos stratus com write today special investors' packet
drieux wetware com \( drieux , drieux \) subject return know nothing party nntp posting host vladimir wetware com reply drieux wetware com organization castle wetware philosopher sniper lines 38 article organpipe uug arizona edu , ece 0028 bigdog engr arizona edu \( david anderson \) writes article 945 wetware com drieux wetware com \( drieux , drieux \) writes well actually case resolving whether one supports biblical , bible , whether wished jump , true christians death camps approach northern liberal efforts destroy bible , corrupt moral american lead god fearing bondage liberal guess one needs know little bible , christianity american history mt st n't spew crap manage , drieux , day day , keep \? \? advocating \? know nothing american history , know nothing bible \? restoration know nothing party \? ciao drieux ps free negro act , supreme court 's ruling importantly , mythology blacks slaves \? \? \? \? hands big sea comedy ! hands big sea comedy ! last call wild humour lemmings
mach1 wlu ca \( craig brown u \) subject stop former beloved damn ferigner 's taken organization wilfrid laurier university lines 35 article spss com spss com \( greg \) writes article junior de junior de \( juergen ernst \) writes never understood canadians , mexicans , etc accusing us people imperialism though think americans europeans think americans \( us bunch trash god sooner later \) would surprising continent produced fascism , communism , two world wars might quite people tend think people trash extinguished sooner later seem remember gut called hitler felt way one wonders would fate europe god extinguished nation trash 1917 \( believe gods \) many millions people world would die force could stop insane , bloody european imperialism \? thankfully us helped put end games rest world sleep alittle safely thus , could care less europeans think long ca n't anything greg opinions entirely remember god extinguished blasphemous trash europe \( imperialism \) , united states would exist today put end games begs question , came first , chicken egg \? \? \? c brown
steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) subject limiting govt \( employment \( concentrate \) summary questions non initiated force organization free barbers , inc lines 69 nntp posting host thor isc br com article encore com rcollins encore com writes article 1993apr15 isc br isc br com , steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) writes n't specify means government prevented becoming tool business interests left wing , big government , conventional liberal , i'm willing vote anti competitive regulations favor auto dealers hear libertarians desire limit terms , weaken government eliminating power enforce antitrust laws , desire eliminate legislator 's pay strikes particularly ineffective way insure auto dealers special interests cannot influence public policy fact , seem clearly designed accomplish opposite government allowed use non initiated force achieve goals , special interest influence government use non initiated force behalf fine libertarians anarchists alone uncomfortable use state sponsored coercion notion coercion virtually eliminated society \( properly eliminated part state longer worth serious consideration \) view peculiar libertarians anarchists example , non initiated force \( coercion \) include tax collection \? include minimal level regulation commerce envisioned adam smith \? since coercion exercised actors state , state deal \? exclusively fact arbitration legal compulsion \? means reaching restricted government another topic 'll address briefly certainly wo n't happen libertarianism dominate philosophy means make libertarianism dominate philosophy \? statists run education monopoly , creative advocates self government reports 85 seminar 1 participants embrace libertarianism 's best means 've seen yet lobby compulsory seminar 1 attendance \) jest ! well , must admit picture libertarians participants somewhat reassuring idea trying govern complex , , industrial society 'd venture point , however , libertarians could n't convince least 85 group seminar participants embrace philosophy , propaganda skills need frankly , however , great trick create government society \( almost \) everyone assumed agree proper government policy assumed , sorts annoying , elections , police , etc mr marx said , state wither away way , however , would like explain eliminating virtually policies restrain private coercion current society help us live happier lives \? like socialism short term pain 'll bear everyone benefit education regular seminar training \? jsh roger collins steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing data , sure cut uucp ! uunet ! isc br ! thor ! steveh bulls r hofferbert bell 509 838 8826
hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) subject urgent ted frank wanted killing aj teel lines 181 reply hallam zeus02 desy de organization desydeutsches elektronen synchrotron , experiment zeus bei hera article 1993apr12 eff org , mnemonic eff org \( mike godwin \) writes article dscomsa desy de hallam zeus02 desy de writes punishing person posting thing smacks 's deliberate act fraud intended cause harm seem unclear legal meaning fraud mere misrepresentation fraud comment meant put fails several reasons 1 \) edited context action discussion 2 \) never brought legal definition use english language legal dialect legal definition fraud changes one country another case context discussion morality censorship posting site thing \? especially site university \? know person believes university endorses every comment made university site \? refered specifically company good , know person believes company endorses every comment made university site \? extrapolating statement made concerning circumstance act censorship would permissable teel case bothered read post instead trying prove stupid thought would done rather better mode argument using form rhetoric argument example , describe wide set circumstances action demonstrate apply , thus action obviously company posting university adress would squashed , would contrary internet comercial use usenet distribute letterhead organization desydeutsches elektronen synchrotron , experiment zeus bei hera suggest strongly mean taken letterhead get better designer clutching context discussion fact association company post important etc inconsequential people net openly supporting murder members family sigh implying lying suggest read mark posts soc culture british suggesting advocating murder trivial matter would prefer state directly certainly oppose right dr call murder salman rushdie incitement murder part consider legitimate freedom speech notion employees argue different political views expense , could explain precisely expense 're talking \? internet free connection charges quite expensive comercial concerns could give cost breakdown expense company attributable employee 's posting political view disagreement \? numbers , please irrelevant , case incremental cost facility cost decide company associated subscribe usenet usenet connection property company quite legitimate company political agenda regulate use property accordance policy example microsoft employee post windows nt crap n't buy microsoft machine would consider reasonable microsoft sack employee way company decides political objectives might wish regulate postings political manner worse murdoch using papers political platform views refering arrogance position , quoting words written slave owners cause freedom words written slave owners quote \? n't recall quoting anyone ah yes quote , merely refered constitution considered parts globe assumed n't consider first amendment value might well attempted argue king james bible muslim pointing reasoning parochial little effort could made substantive point made effort apparently made certain effort misunderstand article consisted reference first ammendment , signature pretty well damn else example uk publication understands , try index censorship used subscribe , would still moving index regularly publishes opinions non americans believe first amendment represents appropriate free speech principles open societies see , e g , opinions law lords case refering initial hearings judgments substantive case \? initial hearings government judged judgment assertion government national interest might harmed would grounds prior restraint second set hearings substance judged government case official secrets act could used suppress information public domain already part copyright issue rather separate issue censorship rather different case information understanding communicated third parties first ammendment certainly apply case numerous spies us proves crux affair british law censorship aspect arose result government 's ludicrous attempts prevent summary case book n't reason believe anything 've said reached unquestioningly write someone purports opposed argument assertion , certainly get assertions lot funny saw rejection assertion made course rejecting assertion make contrary assertion , since assertion unprovable left far seen demonstrate command contrary opinion attacking anti censorship view dare accept validity pro censorship arguments rejecting conclusions plus absolutist funny idea solution problem decided 1789 group white male gentry secret session single line furthermore n't think issues half simple imply may think anti american recourse first ammendment 's argument currency parts world state censorship iran , israel n't pretend geared discourse conceivable audiences n't think discourse audience save proving person wearing white hat phill hallam baker
an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) subject top ten excuses slick willie 's record setting disapproval rati organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 56 reply an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu previous article , mbs110 psuvm psu edu \( mark 'mark' sachs \) says article usenet ins cwru edu , an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) says sure appear way , n't \? attitude people stupid n't agree going bring great success life free advice , oh , christ ! oh , whew mark , earth makes think give fuck success , particularly 'll hell taxed \? oh , excellent holy christ ! \) besides , let 's ahem examine record , shall \? broward clinton 's going holy fuck ! mark , 's 17 month \( still get laugh one ! \) \) broward oh , comes national sales tax clinton supporter oh , , bill never said want free predictions \? \) always makes smile , see george bush used defend bill clinton imagine anything left george bush final argument \? true republicans look pretty pathetic november '92 \) yup surely almost pathetic clinton looking april 93 well , , see watch appointment lake 2 hours past due ! \) 'll let know full time working thing works , wo n't \? want enjoy every minute free time free health care \( reason would gone back working ! \) thanks , bill ! \) \)
an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) subject clinton 's immunization program organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 10 reply an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu previous article , paul hsh com \( paul havemann \) says together c'mon , know words meet new boss ! old boss ! chorus wo n't get fooled ! hmmm , eh , get little side bet one \?
goykhman apollo hp com \( red herring \) subject clinton 's immunization program nntp posting host dzoo ch apollo hp com organization hewlett packard company , chelmsford , lines 22 article 1993apr14 122758 11467 magnus acs ohio state edu jlinder magnus acs ohio state edu \( jeffrey linder \) writes article c5fjsl 6is ncratl atlantaga ncr com mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr c om \( mark wilson \) writes news last night clinton bashing republicans stonewalling called stimulus package seems one small item within package going pay free immunizations poor kids immunizations children country already free care go done problem cost , irresponible parents stupid lazy done case n't noticed , clintonites pushing universal health care access program access means folks give damn immunizing children health care services delivered doorsteps disclaimer opinions expressed mine , employer 's
thf2 kimbark uchicago edu \( ted frank \) subject state justice \( gm trial \) reply thf2 midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 40 article 1993apr15 143320 8618 desire wright edu demon desire wright edu \( boomer \) writes judge denied gm 's new trial motion , even though gm says two new witnesses said occupant truck dead impact , fire thoughts \? 's kind scary realize judges going start denying new trials even new evidence contradicts facts led previous ruling appear hand , would kind scary never final verdict , party litigation could keep saying oops ! forgot bring evidence , demand new trial get one bite apple judge decided new witnesses believed \? n't jury \? 's general motors find witnesses first litigation 'd arms plaintiff suing general motors pulled stunt made issue already lost 's general motors could n't file enough discovery motions delay trial found witnesses wanted members previous jury parading talk shows proclaiming obvious bias gm \? define obvious bias n't enough judge old verdict call new trial \? gm move new trial grounds \? \? perhaps reason \? ted frank thf2 kimbark uchicago edu i'm sorry , card says moops u c law school standard disclaimers
pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) subject clinton 's immunization program organization university tennessee division continuing education lines 29 article c5jobh 7zt apollo hp com goykhman apollo hp com \( red herring \) writes article 1993apr14 122758 11467 magnus acs ohio state edu jlinder magnus acs ohio state edu \( jeffrey linder \) writes article c5fjsl 6is ncratl atlantaga ncr com mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr c om \( mark wilson \) writes news last night clinton bashing republicans stonewalling called stimulus package seems one small item within package going pay free immunizations poor kids immunizations children country already free care go done problem cost , irresponible parents stupid lazy done case n't noticed , clintonites pushing universal health care access program access means folks give damn immunizing children health care services delivered doorsteps 've read programs ran problems convincing parents get children immunized even delivered doorstep \( n't know , maybe sheet informed possible risks , side effects , bad reactions scares \) david veal univ tenn div cont education info services group pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu still remember way laughed , day pushed elevator shaft i'm beginning think n't love anymore weird al
dixie com \( jeff \) subject top ten signs 's age aquarius pennsylvania avenue organization dixie communications public access mouth south lines 19 spot colorado edu \( paul \) writes article newsserver technet sg ipser solomon technet sg \( ed ipser \) writes top ten signs 's age aquarius pennsylvania avenue biased decidedly funny dave stuff deleted sure hope someone somewhere enjoying lists stuff deleted i'm clinton fan , i'm ipser fan simply stop reading n't intended flame , post reminds old joke patient doctor hurts doctor stop regards , jeff
hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) subject italy next domino fall \? lines 101 reply hallam zeus02 desy de organization desydeutsches elektronen synchrotron , experiment zeus bei hera article newsserver technet sg , ipser solomon technet sg \( ed ipser \) writes italy next domino fall \? socialism may collapsed eastern europe soviet western europe united states remains primary ideology hearts minds liberal academia media political correctness muster may sufficient hold back economic forces threaten spread socialism 's collapse second world first indeed , becoming apparent every day socialism may even survive turn century ed course never demonstrated remarkable knowlege socialism , political system come swedes already discarded third way french made history turning socialist party record setting defeat , italy appears edge political existence leaves germany , japan uk examples country right wing government verge collapse oh course usa elected socialist government \) italy , today , basket case even european standards introduced 17 new taxes 5 months public sector revenue near 50 gdp mark etc , unfortunately ca n't pin left right , blame sides equally deep corruption scandal party northern league bunch nationalist communist party collapsed spite political , annual deficit exceeding sum ec countries public debt 2 5 times latin america italy understandably serious trouble selling treasury bonds markets italy extreme case , anything unique european governments appear headed direction spite nominally non socialist governments unfortunately , europeans , well , europeans , unlikely discover american style liberty instead , likely socialism fascism quickly moved fascism socialism never pausing along way role government , hope wrong ed take look budget deficit regan bush created together starts make claims europe collapsing based budget deficits none serious usa scale europe zero interest ed ipser type freed thank want countries run narrow elite rich lawyers benefit super wealthy quite happy social democracy despite fuss made time newsweek remarkably little done reverse social welfare reforms brought socialism problem socialism started aims free education health care provision welfare state achieved across whole europe , usa struggling catch problem socialism succeeded nobody ever claimed collapse socialism would pretty decline nation state probably lead first anarchy since politicians always cut essential services pork los angeles rampant crime frantically waits next wave riots spanking new subway nobody wants use , like every public transit system world , never economically viable \( trying extort tax , would cut first , mass transit police protection \? \) ed starts discus la , presumably thinks europe hand probably n't heard european city thus world toward chaos even 21st century approaches rather opposite happening italy communist party collapsed meant grand coalition right left wing parties keep communists also collapsed seized opportunity crack hard fraud corruption arrested half politicians fact socialists charge week incidental , right corruption looks likely happen fringe parties going much better next election parliamentary deputies going get replaced parties going forced look people free hint corruption look parliament 's porn stars phill hallam baker
garrett ingres com subject return know nothing party summary right know nothing news software vax vms vnews 1 4 b1 keywords organization ask computer systems , ingres product division lines 32 article wetware com , drieux wetware com writes article organpipe uug arizona edu , ece 0028 bigdog engr arizona edu \( david anderson \) writes article 945 wetware com drieux wetware com \( drieux , drieux \) writes guess one needs know little bible , christianity american history mt st n't spew crap manage , drieux , day day , keep \? \? advocating \? know nothing american history , know nothing bible \? restoration know nothing party \? go easy drieux right every american know nothing anything ciao drieux hands big sea comedy ! hands big sea comedy ! last call wild humour lemmings said anything panicking \? snapped authur garrett johnson still culture shock wait till 've garrett ingres com settled situation found bearings 'll start panicking ! douglas adams
hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) subject foreign media reaction april 1 12 , part 1 3 lines 84 reply hallam zeus02 desy de organization desydeutsches elektronen synchrotron , experiment zeus bei hera article 1993apr13 r node hub org , ndallen r node hub org \( nigel allen \) writes press release united states information agency digest foreign media reaction united states information agency april 12 \( 1 3 \) national desk contact anne united states information agency , 202 619 washington , april 13 following part one digest foreign media reaction april 1 12 , compiled united states information agency terrorism world insecurity recent editorials , iran universally recognized te source double threat state sponsored terrorism islamic extremism beyond fear condemnation , journalists found little common ground would compel north south , arab non arab nations work together combat global threat terrorism example , egyptian algerian papers forefront charging u complicity current instability middle east commentators asserted united states promoted islamic fundamentalism afghanistan war added regional instability alternately encouraging iraq iran ! fact precisely us course mentioned fact regan bush sold arms iran , also fact supported armed iraq still state dept propaganda none india 's papers weighed pros cons helping west identify pakistan 's role promoting terrorism , noting one hand could bring 's cause , , could also bring india 's security apparatus close cia mossad arab papers continued portray iraq libya unfairly treated un israel remains resolutions violated case problem us decided ordered bombing needed make peace damascus gulf war one day us certain syria , next strange reason us provide evidence courts proceedings faced similar demands usa would reject would country concerning northern ireland , president clinton 's message consolation victims bombing seen british signalling tougher stance american government violence ira word terrorism problem behaviour george bush usa image abroad precisely likes interests comming justification repeating fitting combination words freedom dignity terrorism dictatorship etc appropriate usa could go quite far mend bridges iran people rather pissed usa first supported shah supported saddam mounted unprovoked attack hardly embassy hostage crisis iran meant country run unreasonable bigots usa movement would easier usa move first could recognise 's responsibility initiating iran iraq war providing technical assistance iran get 's oil production back capacity would also smart move , moment iran 's opec ceiling extra capacity would use bring price interests iranian would interest seeking simply permanent war footing also need western technology phill hallam baker
mfriedma us oracle com \( michael friedman \) subject temper tantrums 1960 's nntp posting host us oracle com organization oracle corporation , redwood shores ca distribution usa x disclaimer message written unauthenticated user oracle corporation opinions expressed user necessarily oracle lines 34 article 1993apr14 pony ingres com garrett ingres com writes article netcom com , phil netcom com \( phil ronzone \) writes correct jfk quite disgusting way reports women coerced via power office dozens today , call immediate resignation kind behaviour guess coercing women sex much worse stealing , breaking entering , national elections , starting secret wars kill hundreds thousands , using powers office personal gain like nixon ! garrett , really pathetic liar charges arguable , obvious lies challenge present us evidence nixon stole , rigged national election , never mind elections , used powers office personal gain ca n't absolutely evidence events occurred along normalized relations prc relations cambodia \? must joking sponsored overthrow government repeated failed attempts course sad level historical political knowlege probably best fact think prc stands cambodia instead red china
sco com \( tim \) subject \? \( professors whining pay \) organization gifted damned summary soak 'em got 'em keywords ! lines 79 candidate clinton promised tax rich , folks thought pretty nifty idea president clinton said wanted families make 100 , 000 bear 70 new tax burden , many quick complain six figure income make one well 's particularly ironic \( \) 's traditionally liberal enclaves bay area academia wealthy struggling fit mantle regular working class folk nobody ever admit rich everybody 's middle class rich \? well , 'll throw stats 1990 census let judge va netcom com mzimmers netcom com \( michael zimmers \) article elroy jpl nasa gov fogarty sir c jpl nasa gov \( tim fogarty \) writes would 55 65 thousand us , professors expect make phd say 10 years experience , 65 , 000 lot less could making industry oh \? 12 year veteran silicon valley , 've seen precious employment ads call phds 65k hardly change 's well median household income state bay area average household income mid 40 , 000 range national average 31 , 889 bay area nearly twice national average six figure income households \( 9 1 vs 4 8 \) cost living may high , n't think 's twice national average los angeles , modest home prices 500 , 000 1 , 500 square foot tract house bay area working class neighborhood goes 250 , 000 doubt los angeles market different would appear definition modest perhaps bit \? 're cheaper employed california , 65 , 000 upper middle class depends upon definition 's clearly average two thirds california households make seems belonging upper one third unreasonable definition upper middle class note professor 's spouse earns 35 , 000 become one clinton 's rich families 's breakdown national , california , bay area household incomes 30k 30 50k 50 100k 100k us 49 24 23 4 census bureau weird ca 41 26 26 7 rounding like 5 ba 34 25 31 9 add little minimum wage working 40 hours week makes 8 , 840 year poverty line family four 15 , 171 make twice , government considers working poor say decide call lower middle class 'bout 30 50k annual income middle class 50 100k upper middle class 100k rich 1 , filthy rich 10 , 000 bill gates make sense \? \) 's nothing , rich get rich poor get poorer , meantime , time , ai n't got fun raymond egan
cs uiuc edu \( dave \) subject foreign media reaction april 1 12 , part 1 3 organization cs dept , univ illinois urbana champaign lines 19 article dscomsa desy de hallam zeus02 desy de writes usa could go quite far mend bridges iran people rather pissed usa first supported shah supported saddam mounted unprovoked attack hardly embassy hostage crisis iran meant country run unreasonable bigots usa movement would easier usa move phill hallam baker also widely stated \( non mainstream sources \) cia large part overthrow popular \( elected \) left leaning premier 1953 widely recognized outside u \? \( never seen mentioned mainstream u media \) within iran \? dave cs graduate student univ illinois urbana champaign work dcl , \( 217 \) 333 home \( 217 \) 359 e mail cs uiuc edu one either none enough
jsc nasa gov \( john \) subject newsweek reports clinton approval ratings organization nasa jsc distribution usa lines 28 article blue cis pitt edu psg pitt edu \( paul galvanek \) writes heard latest approval rating reported clinton , laughed hard forgot exact numbers maybe one refresh memory rating dropped 48 49 percent \? ha ha ha ha ha ! oh either way , 's still lowest rating president ever first 100 days , since polls started taken hum , guess significance opposed incredible drop last days office unfortuantely loss polls last days office usually means election ask george finished started ! good one , thats hard top rooster
rja mahogany126 cray com \( russ anderson \) subject state justice originator rja mahogany126 lines 36 nntp posting host mahogany126 organization 1991 world champion minnesota twins ! article 1993apr15 143320 8618 desire wright edu , demon desire wright edu \( boomer \) writes judge denied gm 's new trial motion , even though gm says two new witnesses said occupant truck dead impact , fire thoughts \? 's kind scary realize judges going start denying new trials even new evidence contradicts facts led previous ruling appear welcome conservative judiciary judge decided new witnesses believed \? n't jury \? think 's point get one chance new information comes later , tough want justice , hope governor feeling charitable 's guy death row texas denied new trial , dispite evidence members previous jury parading talk shows proclaiming obvious bias gm \? n't enough judge old verdict call new trial \? whatever happened jurors objective \? got swept away reagan revolution russ anderson disclaimer statements reflect upon employer anyone else \( c \) 1993 ex twins' jack morris , 10 innings pitched , 0 runs \( world series mvp ! \)
steveth netcom com \( steve thomas \) subject good neighbor political hypocrisy test organization , san francisco , ca lines 34 article 1993apr15 193603 14228 magnus acs ohio state edu rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu \( ryan c scharfy \) writes article stevethc5jgcr 1ht netcom com steveth netcom com \( steve thomas \) wri tes try justify war drugs , dare ! friend mine smoke pot every day last tuesday took 5 hits acid still trouble aiming bowl takes dump n't , seen results boy , really wish cut drug war people screwed head 'll answer 're sarcasm sarcasm boy , looks like wod working really good stop people screwed head , given example ! \( issue friend got drugs legal legal , 'll continue get issue 2 , somebody use illegal drugs screwed pay idiot 's problems \? 's anybody harm except wod , hand , immediate threat life tell sacrafice ! \) steve thomas steveth com
hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) subject tories could win lottery clinton gst \? lines 42 reply hallam zeus02 desy de organization desydeutsches elektronen synchrotron , experiment zeus bei hera article 1993apr15 news columbia edu , gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) writes cmk world std com \( charles kozierok \) writes gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) writes secondly , canadian worked participates insurance \( 's negative option , explicitly decline \) knows premium deducted separately yes , americans actually problem money taken pay others' health care note , canadian german health insurance voluntary true required insurance law method collection effectively makes tax like basic plus cable , tell n't want example , colonies western canada part \( fundamentalist protestants germany whose followers left new world diverse lot similiar amish \) american idea floated today gives option live land selfish bastards unfortunately , number diminished recently , president gets us , hope reversal trend well right hoping selfish bastards pity n't look 12 years regan bush selfish bastard ecconomy done country elect selfish bastard government run country , thats selfish bastards bush regan gave tax breaks ultra rich paid borrowing incomes middle class phill hallam baker
carlos beowulf jpl nasa gov \( carlos carrion \) subject role national news media inflaming passions organization jet propulsion laboratory , pasadena , ca lines 20 distribution ca nntp posting host beowulf jpl nasa gov article 1993apr15 gordian com mike gordian com \( michael thomas \) writes article elroy jpl nasa gov , carlos beowulf jpl nasa gov \( carlos carrion \) writes come conclusion tv stations la want riot happen verdict comes surprising \? times get way last year suppose media want something happen , otherwise would report 's job \( ! \) 's much surprising want riot amazing carry desire across subtle ways \( least \) carlos much man favor superior position assigned white race abraham lincoln ames ! elroy ! jpl devvax ! beowulf ! carlos
garrett ingres com subject temper tantrums 1960 's summary liars news software vax vms vnews 1 4 b1 keywords organization ask computer systems , ingres product division distribution usa lines 36 article 1993apr15 oracle us oracle com , mfriedma us oracle com \( michael friedman \) writes article 1993apr14 pony ingres com garrett ingres com writes article netcom com , phil netcom com \( phil ronzone \) writes correct jfk quite disgusting way reports women coerced via power office dozens today , call immediate resignation kind behaviour guess coercing women sex much worse stealing , breaking entering , national elections , starting secret wars kill hundreds thousands , using powers office personal gain like nixon ! garrett , really pathetic liar n't name calling fun ! charges arguable , obvious lies challenge present us evidence nixon stole , rigged national election , never mind elections , used powers office personal gain think happened watergate \? think broke building \? n't look around draw picture \? ca n't absolutely evidence events occurred whatever said anything panicking \? snapped authur garrett johnson still culture shock wait till 've garrett ingres com settled situation found bearings 'll start panicking ! douglas adams
hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) subject fillibuster lines 55 reply hallam zeus02 desy de organization desydeutsches elektronen synchrotron , experiment zeus bei hera article 1993apr12 martha utcc utk edu , pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) writes come original plan n't meant anything much federal government except keep british 's also untrue , least 're wandering little closer toward reality articles confederation fell apart enough proof tad bit well yes federalist papers propaganda therefore difficult determine precisely maddison etc certainly limited role federal government necessarily true position like house lords copied given pretty wide powers unfortunately started use thus gridlock set n't aware house lords wide powers impression pretty powerless compared house commons , certainly n't almost equal powers \( senate restricted may introduce bills relating raising revenue \) senate less powerful house lords period question stripping powers house lords occur 1914 david george 's budget even despite house lords considerable power even today far rubber stamping body reading constitution writings gives absolutely reason believe senate n't intended make use law making powers fact , grid lock appears designed system , senate body act check often elected house system meant slow react , problem ended bit slow basis suggest senate supposed sort rubber stamp house \? 'll note president 's veto may ridden , house ca n't anything veto senate n't veto meant entirely separate bush abused quite extraordinary manner used accord intent check unreasonable legislation veto clearly regarded completely last gasp measure use meant restricted preventing legislature interfering actions executive senate meant exactly rubber stamp body , meant check legislation extra measure built constitution favour status quo , 60 representatives states reasonable restriction
hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) subject fillibuster lines 43 reply hallam zeus02 desy de organization desydeutsches elektronen synchrotron , experiment zeus bei hera article 325 ncratl atlantaga ncr com , mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com \( mark wilson \) writes article dscomsa desy de hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) writes filibuster make sense senate elected last gasp assembly designed repository old men power phill , n't know senate 're discussing , ai n't phill probably thinks us senate supposed equivalent uk 's house lords status house lords today quite different status 1789 goes show us concerned phill still idea talking maddison hamilton studying existing forms government several years wrote federalist papers us system based considerable degree uk model pretty widely accepted time major country representative body french suppressed 140 years restoration eight years later would mark start french revolution uk system major influences dutch system course classical systems nobody seriously suggests rome greece models though political systems countries disasters main lesson learnt greece unless federal state constructed war would inevitable greek democracies always fighting amongst rome managed invade federal rejected new roman empire shape britain would quite certainly much colonies due course moreover states would others throats soon louisiana purchase situation arose period phill hallam baker
tzs stein2 u washington edu \( tim smith \) subject state justice organization university washington school law , class '95 lines 31 nntp posting host stein2 u washington edu demon desire wright edu \( boomer \) writes judge denied gm 's new trial motion , even though gm says two new witnesses said occupant truck dead impact , fire thoughts \? witness tell someone burning truck dead rather unconscious \? 's kind scary realize judges going start denying new trials even new evidence contradicts facts led previous ruling appear judge decided new witnesses believed \? n't jury \? kind witnesses \? talking witnesses accident , otherwise directly involved \( e g , , emergency room doctors , etc \) , used first trial n't get new trial screwed forgot call witnesses talking new expert witnesses offer new interpretations data , note loser always find witnesses grounds new trial , loser could always get new trial , keep loser becomes winner \( side would come new expert witnesses \) tim smith
miner kuhub cc ukans edu subject none distribution usa organization university kansas academic computing services lines 22 article 1993apr12 kodak com , pajerek telstar kodak com \( pajerek \) writes see media reasonably fair , seen conservatives , liberals think anyone cares , pattern \( using examples course \) discussed 2 , 000 years ago aristotle ethics note ca n't use insight reason backwards e g since conservatives see media liberal liberals see media conservative , media fair ! \( though 've seen reasoning implied \) pajerek standard disclaimers apply ken miner kuhub cc ukans edu nobody explain everything everybody opinions g k chesterton
bram byron u washington edu \( bram \) subject mow bodycount article shelley organization university washington , seattle lines 16 nntp posting host byron u washington edu thoughts going count gorgeous bodies mow \? press \? white house staff \? junior senator \? king motss bi \? curious whose bias going see numbers get brought bram bram bram u washington edu
em rose hp com \( electronic maintenance \) subject incredible new b b organization hewlett packard roseville site lines 39 nntp posting host rose hp com x newsreader tin version 1 1 3 pl7 wow ! ! ! ! discover great bbs ! ! 's called sovereignty lies people bbs 916 589 4620 14 4 k baud free confidential ! fictitious names ok ! subjects files contained bbs find government us ! ! ! ! state citizenship documents issues california republic citizen u federal citizen \? remember state citizens 14th amendment ! ! one subject federal income tax , one n't volunteer surrender state citizenship got social security number \? one \? tax laws issues beat irs traffic laws issues beat traffic tickets answer one law allows police officer arrest without warrant issues ticket \? religious truth issues religions \? \? \? \? christian religions great creator god \? \? \? \? trust documents issues sysop told instructions beat traffic tickets bbs shortly beat traffic tickets without going court ! ! ! bbs great , spread word ! ! ! ! also come n't hear people talking federal reserve bank \? ask questions 1 \) would anyone borrow money interest \? federal government federal reserve bank private american people ripped 100 income tax goes pay federal debt federal reserve one dime goes services services like military welfare come excise taxes like 2 \) american people stand \? \? \? \? \? check new bbs
pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) subject fillibuster organization university tennessee division continuing education lines 132 article dscomsa desy de hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) writes article 1993apr12 martha utcc utk edu , pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) writes come original plan n't meant anything much federal government except keep british 's also untrue , least 're wandering little closer toward reality articles confederation fell apart enough proof tad bit well yes federalist papers propaganda therefore difficult determine precisely maddison etc couple ways look one , want support constitution , 'll say anything think appeal , straightforward , think 've suggested constitution good idea clearly consider former primary situation certainly limited role federal government necessarily true position well , know hamilton wool , probably authoritarian extreme jefferson 's democratic would suggest means determining opinions government n't consider wrote government \? writing support something automatically propoganda point must assume untrue saying n't believe \? like house lords copied given pretty wide powers unfortunately started use thus gridlock set n't aware house lords wide powers impression pretty powerless compared house commons , certainly n't almost equal powers \( senate restricted may introduce bills relating raising revenue \) senate less powerful house lords period question senate less powerful house lords , 'd almost state house representatives also \( fact , , british government much greater power american system \) reading constitution writings gives absolutely reason believe senate n't intended make use law making powers fact , grid lock appears designed system , senate body act check often elected house system meant slow react , problem ended bit slow disagree system slow , simply designed handle less demanded handle somebody washington put \( whose name forget \) , congress become everybody 's city council congress capable quick action , enough power time hands , confined original allowed local autonomy case system government created failing , operating set conditions specifically wanted avoid namely , concentration power would seem proper thing reduce power either house attempt grease wheels 'll get system moves quicker stupid things would make sense make decisions local level basis suggest senate supposed sort rubber stamp house \? 'll note president 's veto may ridden , house ca n't anything veto senate n't veto meant entirely separate bush abused quite extraordinary manner used accord intent check unreasonable legislation please explain bush abused veto extraordinary manner veto clearly regarded completely last gasp measure use meant restricted preventing legislature interfering actions executive fail see restrictions , implied otherwise , placed veto could easily read means put check democratically popular unwise \( executive 's opinion \) policies limit constitution president 's veto power regarding bill previous presidents used veto number reasons , usually something agenda really curious single bush president abused vetos senate meant exactly rubber stamp body , meant check legislation extra measure built constitution favour status quo , 60 representatives states reasonable restriction reasonable restriction \? 51 senators magic holy number upon laws must based \? 41 senators feel safe enough state constituencies stand fillibuster n't enough indicate 's sufficient question whether law good idea evaluate \? one earth 51 sufficient enact law covers 250 million people , diverse places living radically different conditions \? n't super majority required \? system simple majority given absolute power ignore minority minority ignored see positive thing i'm sure republicans looking pork much democrats , 've got legitimate objections legislation question david veal univ tenn div cont education info services group pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu still remember way laughed , day pushed elevator shaft i'm beginning think n't love anymore weird al
matt galaxy nsc com \( matt freivald x8043 \) subject nlns fascism friendly face nntp posting host pogo nsc com organization thought police watchdog agency , u lines 370 wants look bars reactionary liberal conspiracy theory idiots see rant rave erosion populist support \? typical elitist liberal attitude people incapable thinking elitist attitude eventual arrogant liberal tide sweeping america , people begin realize treated like errant children robbed freedoms bunch utopian socialist jerks article talk politics misc , new liberation news service nlns igc apc org writes subject nlns fascism friendly face lines 164 new liberation news service nlns subject nlns fascism friendly face written 8 33 pm apr 14 , 1993 nlns igc apc org igc nlns news nlns packet 3 11 4 14 93 fascism friendly face rush limbaugh remind anyone \? , madison edge main difference adolf hitler rush limbaugh hitler original showed initiative mort sahl tom snyder radio show , abc radio network , october 27 , 1992 although find often disagreeing populist rationale mr limbaugh , find entertaining often agree conclusions fact sends liberal like idiots roof makes entertaining \( nlns \) believe , planning comparative review mein kampf limbaugh 's transcribed rant , way things ought sahl issued comparative review usual , sahl 's independent sharp effort dream comparing favorably mort 's least fairly popular premise everyone 'd mention idea thought either divinely inspired least past due delivery reactions based parallels obvious peripheral observer acts false prophets noted skills , used passion generate political cult massive numerical proportions \( fact , limbaugh claims audience 12 million , almost identical number votes cast hitler april 1932 german election \) used myopic social perspective build cult , enthusiastically facts record fabricate ideological actually , find limbaugh 's less debating skills sometimes lacking , even though conclusions often correct would suggest bankrupt leftist ideology hopes use concentrated political power loaded gun force everyone right things \( right defined elitist academics lead movement \) showing acute case myopic social perspective , mention arrogance utter stupidity limbaugh certainly far perfect , opponents established body politic media ones arguing federal control virtually aspects lives citizenry , elimination local control affairs public perhaps limbaugh following people tired treated like errant children self important group arrogant controlling myopic people understanding life operates outside oughta 's inside hopelessly closed minds last point documented passages opening pages books hitler 's example , page 5 , claims german nationalist terrorist leo \( bombed part railway line dusseldorf , caught act , 1923 \) betrayed france representative government never factual foundation statement fact , governments reich , well vatican , actively intervened save execution , almost succeeded ok , let us take word work nice specific incident limbaugh follows suit making hysterically sarcastic claim introduction school ceremony many public places god unconstitutional course , 's god official imposition particular concepts god individual 's 's unconstitutional limbaugh talent distortion want know hmmm , congress shall pass law regarding establishment religion , prohibiting free exercise thereof liberal translation federal government \( long run liberals \) may force local school districts include certain iconic content christmas displays , prohibiting others think limbaugh one seems arguing less imposition federal government religion nice job one , analysis historical modern communication media deleted , mort sahl also observed radio night , radical right wants limbaugh focal point propoganda \( remember , sahl al haig conservative days \) mort might know exactly rush 's equivalent hess \( book suggests ed , former president abc radio limbaugh 's partner media , radio program 's production company \) mort veteran talk show , hosted new york , washington los angeles knows evil hearts major market media men knows limbaugh could collected audience opportunity placed silver platter handed limbaugh earns money honestly al capone 's almost worthy rico indictment ah yes , conspiracy profound proportions methinks may bit resentful mr limbaugh 's success attribute primarily luck \( , , could anyone profound differences opinion become successful without operation conspiracy blind luck ! \) feel level knee jerk resentment lottery winners , congratulate good fortune \? questions social issues , material limbaugh book seems echo hitler 's venom example great fun , since liberal movement america pushing hardest centralized fascist control people business \( government business indeed \) , mr limbaugh populist nemesis movement read mr limbaugh 's book , although literary piece read recent memory certainly contain venom , let alone venom comparable individual murdered millions racism qualifications control society hitler host sometimes millions people , individually less clearly distinctly guess truth , partly perhaps understand , one man author 's emphasis must step forward order form , force , world imagination great masses , granite principles , take fight sole correctness , playing waves free world thought rock uniform combination form arises \( page 577 \) serious tone limbaugh needs media 've got \? show devoted exclusively think phrase half brain tied behind back make even denotes egress mental aptitude require engage demolish liberals others disagree might take four five years , i'm convinced media slowly reluctantly come around way thinking , kicking screaming way \( pages 266 , 21 , 299 273 , respectively \) neglect mention mr limbaugh \( ever listened show , btw \? \) continuously encourages audience think rather blindly following media icon , included mention makes bones show strictly opinions also rather approach , audience intelligent enough distinguish satire seriousness \( says much \) contrast average mass media show , audience treated society 's intellectual lowest common denominator sure adolf hitler master satire sure kidding said jews cause germany 's problems needed exterminated religion basis nation hitler world human culture civilization bound existence aryan dying decline would lower upon earth dark time without culture dares lay hand upon highest image lord sins benevolent creator miracle helps expulsion paradise \( page 581 \) religion , clearly perverse worship race since christ jew , seems quite unlikely hitler 's characterization aryan highest image lord fits christian doctrine limbaugh america founded judeo christian country intellectual political elites often either hostile toward religion people belief god best charming superstition managed ban prayer public schools last thirty years coincidence quality american education declined ever since \? \( pages 274 5 \) private religious schools vastly better record success publicly funded schools american history indeed primarily judeo christian suppose mr limbaugh pointing facts equivalent adolf hitler worshiping aryan race think might reaching wee bit popular culture reason social collapse hitler fight poisoning soul set one look menus movie houses , one hardly deny right kind food theatre , art , literature , movies , press , window displays must cleaned symptoms world put service moral idea state culture \( pages 346 348 \) definite suggestion government control entertainment industry limbaugh today , hollywood trouble reason hollywood forgotten audience make fun people believe god ridicule traditional family , heterosexuality american heroes \( page 254 \) guess , n't think mr limbaugh would advocate government control hollywood perhaps call radio show confirm believe criticism hollywood moral values , government control hollywood 90 's liberals , hand , want complete government control school systems , government teach people early age right way view religion morality believe mr limbaugh , use young heads full mush hyperbole indicates news hitler activity called liberal press work german people german reich one pass silence marxist papers lies 's task break people 's national spine , order make ripe yoke slavery international capital masters , jews \( page 331 \) pretty strong conspiracy theory , implicit plea government power used break conspiracy limbaugh elements media jumped bandwagon leftist causes cynical journalist past replaced many cases enthusiastic causes gulf war , cnn correspondent bernard shaw said cnn global network ca n't take sides cant take sides \? ! n't realize freedom lies united states america therefore defend nation , hopelessly misguided , may suggest , \( pages 270 268 \) indication elements media \( since career self selected , perhaps inferred percentage represented populace \) leftist bias n't sound unreasonable cnn report objective fashion , reporters say personal bias situation disingenuous may disagree , may well , unreasonable opinion mr limbaugh goes well way make sure audience knows opinions , unlike reporting purports achieve perfect objectivity actuality degree , statistical sense , reflect biases reporters disingenuous , mr shaw mr limbaugh \? , ask mr limbaugh , expect would oppose government control media continue comparative excerpts certainly possible , ultimately depressing take one reading indeed depressing see myopia tiresome liberal arrogance liberals love play games paradigms way discrediting people disagree n't challenge conservative ideology intellectual level rather engaging ludicrous comparisons \? perhaps ideology intellectual exist mind , real world putting books , one undeniable fact 1920s , adolf hitler fed depressed frightened germans opiate hatred around turn , allowed germans hand collective national power nazis 1990s , rush limbaugh thing distributing hatred depressed frightened americans turn , helping american radical right maintain power base 12 year nightmare reagan bush era comes end , hoping rebuild hopes fascist states america perhaps among intellectually challenged rush limbaugh hate , experience spreading laughter ludicrous self importance left , hatred mr bush , may correct fascist economic leanings mr reagan , hand , best reverse fascist trend government involvement business mr clinton increasing fascism america business government partnership increased levels taxation perhaps skipped vocabulary classes grade school limbaugh repellant hitler , radical right utilizes limbaugh gateway opiate one wonder ultimate drug plan hook america hmmm seems limbaugh way comparable hitler murdered six million jews many , many others racism come mixed race family , quite well racism n't hear coming rush limbaugh place hear racism coming days taken seriously liberal left liberal left movement see trying get america hooked socialized medicine , socialized transportation , socialized education , etc left already america hopelessly addicted liberal drug , social security chain letter quite clear hitler analogy really apply either rush limbaugh william jefferson clinton , one two closer clearly fascist clinton madison edge reached po box 845 , madison , wi \( 608 \) 255 30 address idiots anonymous , n't \? matt freivald thinking irrelevant integrity irrelevant free speech irrelevant private property irrelevant personal responsibility irrelevant futile assimilated opinions employer ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
spp zabriskie berkeley edu \( steve pope \) subject mow bodycount organization u c berkeley erl lines 17 nntp posting host zion berkeley edu thoughts going count gorgeous bodies mow \? press \? white house staff \? junior senator \? king motss bi \? curious whose bias going see numbers get brought probably , law enforcement people \( park service police c cops \) , use aerial photographs extrapolate based density crowd small regions sort techniques derive army intelligence cia methods estimating troop strength , tend skewed always come inflated numbers , justify bigger budgets steve
borden head cfa harvard edu \( dave borden \) subject abolish selective service organization smithsonian astrophysical observatory , cambridge , , usa lines 12 selective service registration abolished start , draft immoral whether agree , n't one , military experts agree quality armed forces superior volunteer army draftees finally , government us many lists many computers \( irs , social security admistration motor vehicle registries name \) find us needs maintaining yet another list people utter waste money time let 's axe whole department , reduce deficit little bit dave borden borden m5 harvard edu
utkvx utk edu \( , steve \) subject clinton 's immunization program news software vax vms vnews 1 41 organization university tennessee computing center lines 32 article c5jobh 7zt apollo hp com , goykhman apollo hp com \( red herring \) writes article 1993apr14 122758 11467 magnus acs ohio state edu jlinder magnus acs ohio state edu \( jeffrey linder \) writes article c5fjsl 6is ncratl atlantaga ncr com mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr c om \( mark wilson \) writes news last night clinton bashing republicans stonewalling called stimulus package seems one small item within package going pay free immunizations poor kids immunizations children country already free care go done problem cost , irresponible parents stupid lazy done n't know live , case perhaps state municipality put together funds , area areas know people , immunizations cost sorry shatter stereotypes case n't noticed , clintonites pushing universal health care access program access means folks give damn immunizing children health care services delivered doorsteps disclaimer opinions expressed mine , employer 's
cmk world std com \( charles kozierok \) subject tories could win lottery clinton gst \? organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 41 \( oh boy 's famous phill hallam baker \) article dscomsa desy de hallam zeus02 desy de writes article 1993apr15 news columbia edu , gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) writes cmk world std com \( charles kozierok \) writes gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) writes like basic plus cable , tell n't want example , colonies western canada part \( fundamentalist protestants germany whose followers left new world diverse lot similiar amish \) american idea floated today gives option live land selfish bastards unfortunately , number diminished recently , president gets us , hope reversal trend well right hoping selfish bastards pity n't look 12 years regan bush selfish bastard ecconomy done country 25 years tax spend , big government , institutionalized dependency , control good intentions others' expense done country \? elect selfish bastard government run country , thats selfish bastards bush regan gave tax breaks ultra rich paid borrowing incomes middle class yeah , right clinton different \? please better mean , politician think slick gang elitist socialist academics lead us promised land \? n't hold breath charles
eck panix com \( mark eckenwiler \) subject capital gains tax increase loses money organization nwo steering committee distribution na lines 46 1993apr15 midway uchicago edu , thf2 midway uchicago edu sez article 1993apr14 desire wright edu demon desire wright edu \( boomer \) writes , i'm saying long term investor \( ones likely large capital gains \) would foolish sell order avoid tax hike \) might disappear given year b \) overcome year two gains response \? people pay capital gains taxes long term investors enough n't huge blip whenever capital gains taxes get raised never said everyone would find advantageous said enough would result readily noticeable distort trends even brett 's eventual return figures correct clearly n't 'd still wrong cause '86 blip fails consider 2 basic factors 1 \) ted notes , everyone long term investor one might find oneself , late 1986 , anticipating expenses near term require selling holdings given choice waiting weeks \( taking extra tax hit \) selling december tax treatment , fool would choose former 2 \) fact brett construct post hoc calculations would beneficial investors many respects beside point plenty money style advice given unsophisticated investors late 1986 sell save taxes case anyone missed , shortage similar advice late last year \( nytimes , e g \) , even though advice based conclusion enacted law \( 1986 \) , merely assumption clinton would raise tax rates \( without capping cg taxes , contrary current proposal \) 's nice think investors always behave optimal economic interest like assuming , though , sort thinking often fails describe accurately happens real world moral always choose right sort parents start rough george ade mark eckenwiler eck panix com ! cmcl2 ! panix ! eck
garrett ingres com subject fillibuster summary news software vax vms vnews 1 4 b1 keywords organization ask computer systems , ingres product division lines 24 article dscomsa desy de , hallam zeus02 desy de writes article 1993apr12 martha utcc utk edu , pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) writes like house lords copied given pretty wide powers unfortunately started use thus gridlock set n't aware house lords wide powers impression pretty powerless compared house commons , certainly n't almost equal powers \( senate restricted may introduce bills relating raising revenue \) senate less powerful house lords period question stripping powers house lords occur 1914 david george 's budget even despite house lords considerable power even today far rubber stamping body much power house lords \? said anything panicking \? snapped authur garrett johnson still culture shock wait till 've garrett ingres com settled situation found bearings 'll start panicking ! douglas adams
enrico tmc edu \( russ \) subject , disaster distribution na organization etc organization lines 46 article netcom com phil netcom com \( phil ronzone \) writes apparently another member religious left member religious left , right , even center fact n't consider religious probably result flames \) fact phil , leave religion clouds issue show environmental disasters n't natural disasters individually far outweigh man made ones typical think n't avoid shall refrain word disaster since seems upset much \( case n't realize , natural disasters oops , sorry events refering control man made ones guess missed show ch 20 earlier week disaster oops go meant say event exxon natural every day occurance spread oil 300 miles beach would like know natural event hey remembered say disaster would similar called disasters \( love canal , times beach , tmi \) n't disasters hmm , suppose could right natural tree , sunrise ! look , want worship trees \( whatever \) , fine , try push religious onto look , want worship oil slick \( toxic waste dump live house front yard \) , fine , permission yea right like need permission , wo n't neighborhood live try push views rest us russell people believe innovative interfaces , inc thing environmental disaster pretty weird ai n't \? opinions one elses packet nocal ca na usa
kkopp uxh cso uiuc edu \( koppenhoefer kyle cramm \) subject nc vs hunt \( marine gay bashing wilmington nc \) verdict organization university illinois urbana lines 15 tfarrell lynx dac northeastern edu \( thomas farrell \) writes feel defendents convicted regardless evidence would truely sad day civil rights n't know everybody else , , convicted evidence , mind quite sufficient , sat court room listened case careful consideration , come conclusion well , good
kane buast7 bu edu \( hot young star \) subject mr cramer 's organization astronomy department , boston university , boston , , usa lines 36 article netcom com phil netcom com \( phil ronzone \) writes article 1993apr13 sun0 urz uni heidelberg de gsmith lauren iwr uni heidelberg de \( gene w smith \) writes libertarians going draw clear line nambla \? statements , member organization knew supported exactly nambla supports , namely abolishing age consent 've never supported organization organizations may , paper , support abolition age consent , resemblance stops one supports removal coercive law , paper facade legitimize sexual relations children 's difference , practice \? amounts saying , 's disgusting legal , someone else saying , let 's allow parties involved decide disgusting , 're like , think coercive law , children ca n't make informed consent brian kane buast7 , astro bu edu \( hot young star \) astronomy dept , boston university , boston , 02215 true personal salvation achieved absolute faith ones true self
ian nasser eecs nwu edu \( ian sutherland \) subject limiting govt \( employment \( concentrate \) organization eecs department , northwestern university lines 40 article 1993apr15 170731 8797 isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) writes article 1993apr15 tijc02 uucp pjs269 tijc02 uucp \( paul schmidt \) writes steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) writes noted another thread \( limiting govt \) , problem libertarians face insuring limited government seek become tool private interests pursue agenda failure libertarianism ideology provide reasonable way restrain actions utopian dreams seem saying limited government provide opportunities private interests use pursue agendas , asking libertarians prove happen ca n't offer proof , seems pretty damn plausible government regulate particular area , cannot become tool private interests pursue agendas area rather suspect 's sort government likely become tool , tool many instances marxism fails specify pure communism achieved state wither away , libertarians frequently fail show weakening power state result improvement human condition suspect improvement human condition define primary goal libertarianism , would primary goal libertarian government impression libertarianism primary goal elimination government coercion except limited cases ian sutherland ian eecs nwu edu sans
gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) subject tories could win lottery clinton gst \? nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) organization phds hall lines 41 phill hallam baker \( hallam zeus02 desy de \) writes gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) writes cmk world std com \( charles kozierok \) writes gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) writes secondly , canadian worked participates insurance \( 's negative option , explicitly decline \) knows premium deducted separately yes , americans actually problem money taken pay others' health care note , canadian german health insurance voluntary true required insurance law method collection effectively makes tax could 're british , phill , living germany \? ec working rules liberal 1989 us canada , 's probably law \( health insurance coverage condition , example \) mentioned , yet ny times profile german sickness funds \( late jan \) pamphlets girlfriend gives language students german consulate say voluntary \( okay , quotation marks \( \) 90 population covered sickness funds \( analogous provincial health , divided province state \) another guy health care policy says turkish guest workers n't covered 's written couple times \( 's post er \) 'll ask gld je souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go ! ! ! gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
rja mahogany126 cray com \( russ anderson \) subject gore throws first ball media coverage originator rja mahogany126 lines 37 nntp posting host mahogany126 organization 1991 world champion minnesota twins ! distribution usa article 1993apr15 1213 hsh com , paul hsh com \( paul havemann \) writes article 1993apr13 hemlock cray com , rja mahogany126 cray com \( russ anderson \) writes article 849 ncratl atlantaga ncr com , mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com \( mark wilson \) writes past thursday vp gore threw first ball home opener atlanta braves according news reports quite loudly booed \( , dr norman , typical beer red necks \) personally would n't paid attention incident except evening news describing event , went comment booed nothing unusual since normal audiences boo point since delaying start game bunch crock never heard incident thrower ceremonial ball booed dan quayle got booed last year \( listening radio \) game quayle told brewers players would like see play orioles alcs 's come , \? defending al gore comparing dan quayle \? compared quayle gore \? mark said never heard incident thrower ceremonial ball booed mentioned another incident \( media liberal bias , i'm sure would heard quayle incident \) compare quayle anyone , likely would elmer fudd 'd say says back pit ye , back alt fan dan quayle ! ! russ anderson disclaimer statements reflect upon employer anyone else \( c \) 1993 ex twins' jack morris , 10 innings pitched , 0 runs \( world series mvp ! \)
kaldis romulus rutgers edu \( theodore kaldis \) subject many homosexuals \? distribution usa organization rutgers univ , new brunswick , n j lines 7 perhaps 1 , likely 2 new study \( discrediting kinsey \) says views expressed herein theodore kaldis seriously kaldis remus rutgers edu believe major university ! rutgers ! remus rutgers edu ! kaldis would hold views \? \? \?
sys1 exnet co uk \( xavier gallagher \) subject using california 's antidiscrimination sort case predicted organization exnet systems ltd public access news , london , uk lines 26 article optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes article armory com , rstevew armory com \( richard steven walz \) writes face , clayton , found guilty , gays sometimes make 16 year old boys 16 year old gays , know recall , case state rested testimony one victim declined testify , even threat teens since 40 , lot people face clayton , 're jerk ! rsw richard steven walz rstevew deeptht armory com \( 408 \) 429 1200 515 maple street 1 without safe free abortion women santa cruz , ca 95060 organ surrogates unwanted parasites always amazed see people admit breaking law putting address signature please tell us 13 \? 14 \? would like make statement district attorney \? sex 13 year old boy , great , everything , well , hell lot fun anyway oh , turn purple rage 12 time clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent ,
smith harvard edu \( steven smith \) subject candidate reply cosc brocku ca 's message 10 apr 93 23 10 23 gmt organization harvard robotics lab , harvard university 1993apr10 spartan ac brocku ca lines 18 cosc brocku ca \( brian ross \) writes world future , bill clinton appoint canadians govern american institutions \( starting american health care system \) benevolent canadian dictators yet another tax floated clinton administration pay new social programs , 've really begun suspect canadians , long resentful place american shadow , brainwashed american draft dodger fled canada time 1966 1968 , ways canadian socialism , awarded smokeless marijuana cigarettes got correct answers , returned states \( control wife assigned case \) attain high public office destroy evil free market forces america , thus shaping america canadian image steven smith
garrett ingres com subject limiting govt \( employment \( concentrate \) summary 02 news software vax vms vnews 1 4 b1 keywords organization ask computer systems , ingres product division lines 59 article 1993apr16 eecs nwu edu , ian nasser eecs nwu edu \( ian sutherland \) writes article 1993apr15 170731 8797 isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) writes article 1993apr15 tijc02 uucp pjs269 tijc02 uucp \( paul schmidt \) writes steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) writes failure libertarianism ideology provide reasonable way restrain actions utopian dreams seem saying limited government provide opportunities private interests use pursue agendas , asking libertarians prove happen ca n't offer proof , seems pretty damn plausible government regulate particular area , cannot become tool private interests pursue agendas area rather suspect 's sort government likely become tool , tool many instances pardon interrupting , n't anyone ever bring possibilities besides government , less government , government stop \? seems problems society go much deeper government democracies seem reflective majority society , good bad take away government , still structural flaws society , except time , restraints yes \? \? n't anybody ever discuss communal society , like kibbutz \? never studied depth , 've heard , kibbutz isreal successful also close aristotle socrates believed best sorry discussion marxism fails specify pure communism achieved state wither away , libertarians frequently fail show weakening power state result improvement human condition suspect improvement human condition define primary goal libertarianism , would primary goal libertarian government impression libertarianism primary goal elimination government coercion except limited cases good change improvement human condition \? would ever support change tell wo n't improve lives \? know , , libertarians jump say improve lives deal i'm saying improving human condition must primary goal organization ian sutherland ian eecs nwu edu said anything panicking \? snapped authur garrett johnson still culture shock wait till 've garrett ingres com settled situation found bearings 'll start panicking ! douglas adams
clinton hq campaign92 org \( clinton gore '92 \) subject clinton press briefing dee dee myers 4 15 93 organization project gnu , free software foundation , 675 mass ave , cambridge , 02139 , usa 1 \( 617 \) 876 3296 lines 844 nntp posting host life ai mit edu white house office press secretary immediate release april 15 , 1993 press briefing dee dee myers briefing room 9 45 edt q 10 00 postponed \? ms myers due scheduling conflicts put , president meet leaders national police organizations 2 00 p rose garden , opposed 10 00 things schedule today 11 00 'll meet general vessey , , know , way vietnam continue working mia pow issue 12 30 p 'll lunch vice president oval office 2 00 p 'll meet police organizations 3 00 p 4 00 p 'll weekly photos various groups q photo op vessey \? ms myers 's coverage vessey meeting q \? ms myers \? 's closed meeting q lunch \? ms myers lunch \? , 's coverage q meeting congress people today \? ms myers nothing scheduled q meetings ms myers congressional meetings today , q president given information pentagon reached conclusion validity report \? instructions vessey deal vietnamese subject \? ms myers well , clearly , report first order business 's high agenda something 'll discuss think president general vessey discuss parameters visit vietnam today , president n't drawn conclusions report yet certainly , 's something wants general vessey talk vietnamese first q president talk republican senators yesterday stimulus package \? ms myers spoke senator dole q many times \? ms myers believe day last night q outcome \? ms myers 're continuing work toward kind agreement jobs package q impression senator dole way flexible \? ms myers well , think 're hopeful 're going get kind jobs package senate , 'll continue work senator dole others reach kind agreement q discuss vat tax \? ms myers n't know came q check \? ms myers sure q president offering scale program 's trying , buy dole sign \? ms myers well , 's trying protect much 's important get kind jobs package senate congress soon reach conclusions , 'll let know moment , 's continuing consult members congress including , obviously , senator dole q talking anybody else \? ms myers n't believe talked republicans yesterday q talking anybody today \? ms myers n't think anything scheduled , would n't rule q led believe president called mr dole subject russian aid bob dole brought conversation around stimulus package correct \? ms myers think president contacted several people russian aid think always expected stimulus package jobs package part conversation would senator dole primary objective conversation russian aid first order business , q president 's mind , linked politically republicans continue reject stimulus package , thinks harder sell russian aid american people \? made argument \? ms myers ca n't talk specifically arguments might made president obviously committed liked see jobs package american people first know , outlined details additional russian aid last night tokyo q president believe stimulus package make difficult persuade americans vote russian accept vote russian aid \? ms myers think president going continue work pass stimulus package , pass jobs package , 're still hopeful 'll get kind jobs package congress q fair say president negotiating dole \? ms myers 's discussing options q stimulus , understanding break democrats , , left support earlier package , stimulus package \? ms myers think still wide support senate jobs package q specifically , 've lost democrats shelby \? ms myers n't believe n't vote q kohl \? q kohl feingold \? ms myers n't vote yet 'll continue work senators try get majority try bring package vote , believe majority members united states senate support package q 're n't worried kohl feingold , george mention milwaukee projects day \? ms myers think george pointed number projects number states stand funded , lose funding jobs package n't pass q democrats \( laughter \) ms myers 'll let draw conclusions q plan talk dole today republicans today \? ms myers 's nothing specifically scheduled , , would n't rule q plan put press releases states today \? ms myers 've done 're process breaking benefits jobs package state state think 's entirely feasible sort able sum , 'll send press releases various states suggest states would benefit package q share us \? ms myers sure yesterday q copies ones sent ms myers yes , made available yesterday certainly continue provide today q dee dee , since yesterday 's questions subsequent stories vat , consideration issue given \? ms myers nothing 's changed since yesterday think president commented morning say something knew considered task force made decision , n't think anything add q also said business labor groups telling support tell us ms myers think i'm going speculate supports think president said support among business labor groups n't think said directly contacted q take mean administration sounded business labor groups ms myers think 's plenty public discourse years even recently , n't think want add q february , though , president said something considered 10 15 years road happened cause administration change mind \? ms myers think said yesterday , something working groups looking 're considering wide variety options everything funding specific options covered president 's health care plan president taken yet , made decision beyond , n't anything add q n't answered question n't considered anyone white house president 's comments february , george reaffirmed briefing q suddenly q happened \? ms myers working groups , said throughout , instructed consider wide variety options across board one things talked clearly considering kind value added tax q president took table , dee dee , suddenly reappears goes credibility administration way happened meantime \? ms myers president looked , n't presented , , yet working groups looking , 're looking wide variety options , decisions made q raises question independently task force working ms myers task force instructed consider options , 've taken mandate seriously 're considering options q 's impression president left february impression left something long range , looked 10 , 15 years road clear implication remarks something table , option q changes 'll tell q bring q repeatedly referred president 's remarks , telling us still operation ms myers 's changed , told \( laughter \) q 's alice rivlin 's comments donna shalala comments mean , seemed like orchestrated effort two independent cabinet officers ms myers would n't , alice rivlin 's cabinet member , first second , orchestrated , clearly , said yesterday last couple days 's something 's looked confirmed yesterday n't anything add q options \? q something incumbent upon task force convince president \? words , president personally ruled 's task force convince put back table \? , fact , back table , placed discussions president \? ms myers working group 's mission point convince president anything mission put options explain benefits costs basic pros cons options think certainly present vat context , point 's presentation made , 's something hear made decision q present one options , though specifically ruled \? ms myers correct q dee dee , trial balloon \? serious consideration working groups giving form taxation \? ms myers 's simply statement fact working groups considering wide variety options number issues relating health care reform one options 're looking vat q dee dee , working groups examining possibility , table time period telling us \? ms myers n't know specific timing drafting options n't know q telling consideration \? ms myers referring back president 's comments q discovered sin taxes wo n't raise enough money fund core benefit package \? ms myers , 's decisions made pay health care plan q i'm asking whether projections ms myers 's number options depending plan structured ca n't decide much plan going cost decide plan going look like ca n't discuss financing options ruled know q dee dee , 've told computer models number possible packages ms myers correct q question whether determined whether sin taxes would produce enough money even minimum package difficult computation ms myers question know 're going answer 's number options considered depends package structured exact details package financing mechanisms used pay among decisions yet made q president meeting health care health care advisors , told ms myers correct q never said , funding options , including vat \? never heard word vat ms myers going comment specific nature daily 're daily , quasi regular briefings q well , ms myers , say 's considered vat think true statement q , said presented option ms myers correct q n't mean n't heard ms myers i'm going get details 's discussed think statement stands q specific , dee dee say n't looked , mean n't looked terms paying medical coverage , n't looked general \? back specific defining works , advantages , whole thing sounds like ms myers think , go back remarks , broader philosophical discussion tax structure think comments generally reference overall economic plan clearly , 's something 's thought broad context mean , clear i'm saying process working groups 's something n't considered yet 's something working groups present among number options , decisions made i'm going comment details meetings health care issues discussed q 's statement podium discussion taken place say option option presented ms myers correct q stand white house still stand george 's statement march proposal \? ms myers decisions made nothing add 's already said q let follow stand rivlin said yesterday , kind vat used considered , changes tax code would made would less \? ms myers i'm going comment might happen q stand previous conversations february vat , think president said 'd exclude food energy ms myers i'm going comment specific structure decision n't made q president aware prior donna shalala 's comments yesterday consideration working groups \? ms myers n't know specifically q could check us , 's real important credibility question \? ms myers sure q since task force brought together issue discussed , beginning throughout , one fairly painless way raise lot money kept dark \? press office kept dark past month half 've denying vat tax would considered actually table option \? ms myers think 've said say something working groups looking president made decision yet beyond , nothing add q well , sorry , dee dee , still couple questions going ask problem credibility primarily 're asking , told thing considered coming telling us , 's case coming deliberately misleading us ms myers n't believe anyone ever come deliberately misled podium ever ever q anyone tried shade little bit indicate something anybody told anybody come ms myers 're trying shade answers deliberately mislead anybody 've said say issue q trying find ms myers understand 're trying find 've given answers , helen q 're trying find changed made option 's ms myers working groups given broad mandate investigate options , q yes , n't option investigate president taken table \? ms myers something 're obviously considering president made decision q yes , took table february ms myers working groups considering 'll present president point 'll make decision q would consider taken table \? ms myers 's clearly table q yes , took table change mind \? ms myers 's back table , bill q change mind \? ms myers said morning n't made decision obviously knows 's table 's something look decision 'll let know q must changed mind , right \? ms myers point looked mean , q dee dee , 's like two options either changed mind working groups think 're authority exceeds president 's ms myers working groups given broad mandate look options 've done q going put income tax \? ms myers yes , something available income tax probably later afternoon return available q kind briefing go \? ms myers , nothing 's planned think someone available , probably briefing setting , walk questions q 're used walked line line presidential tax forms ms myers 've seen briefings \( laughter \) q could one \? ms myers , n't think kind formal briefing , somebody available answer questions q file joint form \? ms myers yes q file \? ms myers believe 's filed today q dee dee , going backgrounder miyazawa \? ms myers , readout meeting q backgrounder today \? ms myers backgrounder today q complicated stuff need help \( laughter \) ms myers ca n't give taxes miyazawa one day , 's confusing \( laughter \) q vance owen opened doors use force bosnia 've said , , never ruled , b , might necessary influence thinking whether change approach \? ms myers 's change policy towards bosnia always said 'd consider q impact upon decision \? people whose opinions would carry weight \? ms myers 're people whose opinions carry weight certainly mean , president supports process 've initiated 's change policy bosnia , although 're considering number options right serbs n't come back negotiating table , n't sign kind agreement , consider additional options , 've saying regularly q one follow question \? cannot get straight answer anyone administration set deadline serbs \? tell us strategic tactical reasons giving deadline come table \? ms myers 're continuing put pressure every day q n't work ms myers well , think effect 're going continue tighten sanctions know , support resolution expect come vote 26th q say 's effect give us documentation \? ms myers 'd happy provide somebody talk impact sanctions things like q 's able provide anybody tell us sanctions effect bosnia serbia , yes bosnia , ms myers think 've effect serbia think 've effect bosnia , 'll happy provide somebody walk details , 'd like q would like hear someone show us effect bosnia briefing terrible things happening belgrade , n't seen anything indicates impact fighting provide something along lines \? ms myers see get q extra russian aid christopher announced morning money coming \? ms myers 'll work congress details package q would new money would hope get \? ms myers yes , 's new money , addition 1 6 billion announced vancouver assume seen 1 8 billion package announced morning tokyo secretary christopher q n't concern , though , offering something get congress \? mean , concern vancouver n't want ms myers concern vancouver something immediately , required money already approved fiscal '93 budget 're looking little bit longer term plan build top 1 6 billion announced vancouver clearly require congressional approval , anyway , 're going continue work congress make happen q extent agreed congress \? ms myers president number conversations members continue work process moves forward q christopher able put package fair degree understanding able get congress \? ms myers created consultation congress q meeting law enforcement officials , set speech goal \? direction \? ms myers yes , president talk law enforcement organizations endorsing president 's jobs package believe particularly summer jobs package help give kids something q \? ms myers 's members leadership three organizations , national association police organizations , international brotherhood police organizations , believe , international union police associations q fbi chief \? ms myers fbi chief \? q federal law enforcement officials \? ms myers , president national law enforcement organization leaders q 1 8 billion announced today include 400 million 's fy '94 budget disarmament \? ms myers nunn lugar money separate q would 700 million 's budget already , plus another 1 1 billion \? ms myers believe top 700 million already budget q going part supplemental fiscal '94 ms myers 'll work congress exact funding mechanism exactly paid q 1 8 billion top ms myers top 700 million top 400 million nunn lugar money announced earlier q prompted president call bob dole , previous money calling bob dole \? ms myers correct q briefing miyazawa \? ms myers readout meeting miyazawa tomorrow q dee dee , totally unrelated matter , republicans active u chamber commerce complaining new cozy relationship white house chamber commerce town hall meeting night , satellite relationship white house feel 're getting close chambers commerce \? ms myers 's interesting charge \( laughter \) many years democrats accused paying attention chambers , would accuse us close think 's interesting , 're thrilled support 've received national chamber local chambers across country 'll continue work initiatives q 's status president thinking going democratic retreat \? ms myers 's calendar think 'll almost certainly go q three days \? ms myers n't figured exactly 'll yet q open coverage \? ms myers , believe whole thing closed q going kind address , statement , anything gay rights march 25th \? ms myers 're still looking n't made final decision 'll make statement q meetings scheduled leaders \? ms myers nothing scheduled , would n't rule q aids czar \? ms myers 's coming q anything weekend \? q 's suggestion 's going retreat avoid participate gay rights appear involvement gay rights march ms myers , think something 's discussing long time appearing senate democratic retreat q weekend \? ms myers weekend \? n't know thing right radio address saturday q travel plans \? ms myers changes none right q 's going campaigning stimulus package \? ms myers specific plans right q mid week \? anything likely \? ms myers 's possible yes , think 's likely 'll travel next week certainly weekend q called daughter \? ms myers n't know 'll check q going name drug czar weekend \? ms myers weekend \? n't believe q radio address saturday going focused stimulus package \? ms myers i'm sure press thank end10 10 edt
clinton hq campaign92 org \( clinton gore '92 \) subject clinton vp gore joins students orlando 1st kids earth summit organization project gnu , free software foundation , 675 mass ave , cambridge , 02139 , usa 1 \( 617 \) 876 3296 lines 102 nntp posting host life ai mit edu white house office vice president immediate release contact thursday , april 15 , 1993 202 456 julia payne 202 456 gore joins students orlando first kids earth summit take part special town meeting environment saturday , april 17 , 1993 orlando , florida joining students across united states around world first ever kids earth summit , vice president al gore travel orlando , florida , saturday \( 4 17 \) participate special town hall meeting , hosted linda broadcast nickelodeon , hear young people 's concerns share ideas environment vice president take part kids world council plan planet 2 5 pm \( edt \) saturday \( 4 17 \) orlando , florida tour display student environmental projects , videotape town hall meeting discuss student delegates concerns environment plans environmentally sound future town hall meeting moderated linda taped news special , nickelodeon special edition plan planet , air sunday , april 18 8 pm \( edt \) sponsored nickelodeon children 's earth fund young people care environment know affects future across country around world , young people speaking environmental challenges face identifying problems , thinking solutions , demanding action leaders , vice president said kids world council delegates meeting three days orlando discuss save energy switch renewable energy following format goals earth summit took place last year rio de vice president led senate delegation earth summit look forward hearing young people say environment future insight world around us important , vice president said \( \) schedule vice president saturday , april 17 , 1993 2 15 pm \( edt \) vice president tours display student environmental projects nickelodeon studios orlando , florida 3 30 pm \( edt \) vice president takes part town hall meeting kids world council delegates linda nickelodeon studios orlando , florida 5 pm \( edt \) vice president kids world council washington , c note press wish attend contact eileen marty von florida 407 352
clinton hq campaign92 org \( clinton gore '92 \) subject clinton remarks law enforcement leaders organization project gnu , free software foundation , 675 mass ave , cambridge , 02139 , usa 1 \( 617 \) 876 3296 lines 227 nntp posting host life ai mit edu white house office press secretary immediate release april 15 , 1993 remarks president law enforcement organizations rose garden 2 52 p edt president good afternoon ladies gentlemen , two months ago presented comprehensive plan reduce national deficit increase investment american people , jobs economic future federal budget plan passed congress record time , created new sense hope opportunity country , short term jobs plan presented congress , would create half million jobs next two years passed house representatives two weeks ago support majority united states senate members congress know 's time get economy moving , get job growth going , get fast start investments need build lasting prosperity unfortunately , minority members united states senate used gridlock tactics prevent colleagues working majority jobs bill congress returns , ask every senator every state parties remember stake issue politics , 's people sixteen million looking full time jobs ca n't find men women n't care 's washington care paying rent meeting mortgage payment , putting food table buying shoes children , sense dignity comes day 's work supporting families drawing paycheck 're asking us privilege serving put aside politics something move economy forward prepared working senate come adjusted package meets concerns blocking action jobs plan i'm willing compromise , long keep focus jobs , keep focus growth keep focus meeting national needs opponents asking smaller package today ask join determining exactly kind size package congress approve actually meets needs american people even make reductions package smaller , believe must address problems minds millions americans , one particular , need law enforcement society deal dramatic rise violent crime ask , even reduced package , additional 200 million federal funding help local communities police officers laid fiscal problems caused national recession together , matching effort local governments , could put many 10 , 000 police officers back job , back beat communities across nation time many people live fear violent crime , many businesses closed many people lost jobs people afraid leave homes , thousands officers one best investments america make ask houses congress make investment people 's safety piece mind believe need strong federal action keep economy going toward recovery create jobs make mistake fight priorities hard ever never forget people sent fight jobs , future fundamental change want thank police officers today tell single one knew came determined ask money jobs bill police officers came believe summer jobs portion package want free talk came law enforcement concern fact wanted kids country chance jobs summer , safer streets brighter peaceful future say say today 's good law enforcement 's good people live communities always supported community policing helps prevent crime lower crime rate , better relationships people law enforcement people 're hired protect reduces chances abusive action police officers increases chances harmony safe streets time kinds things trying promised campaign 'd everything could put another 100 , 000 police officers street next four years makes good keeps mind core jobs package help us move forward ask people senate blocked jobs bill , let 's work together accept reduced package increase commitment safe streets accept fact reduce commitment summer jobs building infrastructure things create real lasting prosperity people done part end gridlock ask want give people platform chance make remarks heard american people beginning janet reno , distinguished attorney general q mr president , tell us think jobs package could put jeopardy controversy suggestion vat tax point congressional dialogue \? president think would n't relationship one first , made absolutely decision know 's lot support business community labor community people asked us consider enormous burden present system many major employers , particularly many depend upon generate jobs carry strength economy made absolutely decision would even approach kind general tax q personally believe american public ready pay another tax pay health care \? mean , apart business labor leaders said president i'm going speculate say real issue quickly recycle benefits savings cover cost mean , everyone knows 're proposing , streamline insurance system , fix system 's longer enormous economic incentive utilize provide certain services , provide primary preventive care places n't , every single analysis shows absolutely massive savings health care system real question whether transfer savings cover coverage virtually coverage provide people security idea polls say , n't know know polls see press many commissioned , say overwhelmingly american people want security affordable health care system n't think anything stimulus , certainly n't people want job first foremost want anything else q 've announced willingness compromise stimulus package , tell us parts package consider vital \? assume summer jobs one president want summer jobs want highway program want police program still intend let say still intend fully aggressively push crime bill , pass congress last year supplement , substitute way think need think need ryan white funds enormous health care burdens communities disproportionately affected problems caring people aids several things think done agriculture department meat inspectors safety public depends number things n't n't think cut , given senator mitchell senator talked senator dole called yesterday discuss , told would call back called back last night new hampshire discussed basically asked talk today , said would make statements specifics least chance talk see whether could reach accord n't want specific already , let 's see talk q talked senator dole senator mitchell tell increase also , 200 million , want part package \? president told senator left word senator mitchell last night talked senator dole n't remember sure believe mentioned tell prepared reduce package wanted break gridlock , told working hope would become even focused jobs kinds issues thought american people wanted us address certainly consistent thank 12 p edt
cs utexas edu \( brian keith \) subject high speed rail bad organization cs dept , university texas austin lines 16 distribution tx nntp posting host cs utexas edu article 1993apr15 hydra acs ttu edu mcgoy unicorn acs ttu edu \( david mcgaughey \) writes question , think , becomes , general public , need train \? certainly , ever , need train , texas inexpensive air travel provided dallas houston , n't think people dallas houston need either totally agree really , people going benefit , live cities train stops wants drive train station x \( example \) \? 's probably farther drive train station nearest national airport really ca n't see spending 5 7 billion system three cities benefit
clinton hq campaign92 org \( clinton gore '92 \) subject clinton president 's trip pittsburg organization project gnu , free software foundation , 675 mass ave , cambridge , 02139 , usa 1 \( 617 \) 876 3296 lines 31 nntp posting host life ai mit edu white house office press secretary immediate release april 15 , 1993 statement press secretary president travel pittsburgh saturday , april 17 talk job creation plan impact state pennsylvania , would create many 3 , 818 full time jobs 21 , 240 summer jobs make public address pittsburgh international airport 9 30 president leave washington early saturday morning return afternoon white house press charter depart andrews air force base 7 30 filing facilities available pittsburgh
cs utexas edu \( brian keith \) subject high speed rail bad organization cs dept , university texas austin lines 14 distribution tx nntp posting host cs utexas edu article 1993apr13 6221 iqsc com rex iqsc com \( rex black \) writes rail texas california , come conclusion one two choices preventing economic traffic high speed rail growth limits rex growth limits \? help traffic congestion \? understand , rail stop places like waco , bryan , lots intermediate places even though live austin , n't see using train except rare occasions probably twice year 65 dollars ticket could probably drive cheaper also \( even price gas went \)
chaudhary amar yale edu \( amar chaudhary \) subject top ten signs 's age aquarius pennsylvania avenue organization yale university science engineering unix \( tm \) , new , ct 06520 2158 lines 111 nntp posting host minerva cis yale edu top ten signs 's age aquarius pennsylvania avenue 10 men uniform persona non home commander chief 9 's make clean air act look like industrial policy 8 higher taxes prescription america 7 tax dodging unpatriotic draft dodging symbol pride 6 beaded curtains hang oval office windows 5 socialism may dead ex soviet union told prepare health care resources \( people must something \) 4 quite free love eating flowers considered healthy 3 president white house whether rest us realize 2 slick may first draft dodger send american troops combat 1 slick may unpopular middle class americans , 's big hit campus class copyright \( c \) edward ipser , jr , 1993 's top ten response mr ipser 's list 10 's time president might actually stand military men women uniform must learn world revolve around , one things 're defending right critical , even denounce 9 let explain something environmental policy industrial policy must go hand hand nation , indeed , planet cannot afford continue ignoring done last twelve years industrial environmental position downright shameful ! must active government support key industries , telecommunications , microelectronics , medical , , environmental tech meanwhile weed old , , high , industries better left nations make us richer , help produce new jobs , help environment give credit credit due , heard lot speech senator john kerry \( \) tonite addition , 's time get really , really serious issues like , warming , ozone depletion planet live utmost priority ! 8 happens takes money make country work , provide services people need , help solve problems need solved granted , things probably done efficiently less money , things going cost money i'm sick tired hearing everyone whining taxes time want live country , pay fair share ! 7 ca n't believe hypocrites people ask people give lives country complain taxes 're willing send die stupid obsession fighting enemy best n't affect us worst really friend , right tell n't pay taxes ! 6 hey , think beaded curtains add lovely 60 's esque touch ! 5 look , canada , europe , japan manage provide health care citizens \( , yes , basic health human right people entitled \) nations n't capitalist enough , guess 've found something better capitalism ! nothing sacred capitalist system , something , socialism anything else , works better , say let capitalism die 4 make love , war ! 3 contrary popular belief , possible male feminist time discriminate deny equal opportunity majority population plain wrong , trying force sort tradition role even worse women certainly much offer world men , day gender discrimination finally broken going make revolutions past centuries seem like reform bills look forward 2 see number 10 1 hey man , rules ! ! amar chaudhary peace , land , ! ac dc ! none opinions necessary reflect opinions yale university anyone anything associated , except , course \) please post send chaudhary amar cs yale edu
rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu \( ryan c scharfy \) subject clinton 's immunization program nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 33 article c5jobh 7zt apollo hp com goykhman apollo hp com \( red herring \) writ es article 1993apr14 122758 11467 magnus acs ohio state edu jlinder magnus cs ohio state edu \( jeffrey linder \) writes article c5fjsl 6is ncratl atlantaga ncr com mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr c om \( mark wilson \) writes news last night clinton bashing republicans stonewalling called stimulus package seems one small item within package going pay free immunizations poor kids immunizations children country already free care go done problem cost , irresponible parents stupid lazy done case n't noticed , clintonites pushing universal health care access program access means folks give damn immunizing children health care services delivered doorsteps excuse sticking nose , parent parents allready children \( especially already free \) , n't deserve one dime tax money health care , public health care service \( know immunization program coming national health care issue slightly seperate issues , anybody would n't help kids , n't deserve tax help \) ryan
cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) subject role national news media inflaming passions organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 44 article murdoch acc virginia edu , gsh7w fermi clas virginia edu \( greg hennessy \) writes article optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes came , much lower profile reporting , victim prostitute , man paid hence false accusation evidence woman question prostitute , defense merely even clayton knows difference err , perhaps clayton n't know difference evidence given prostitute status , besides admittedly questionable claim man trial included 1 prior employment number massage , women claimed worked prostitute 2 walking around truck stop 4 00 wearing , top , underwear sort 3 purse enough convict , enough create reasonable doubt whether rape actually took place , theft services ignorant , lying \? judge found credible evidence marines engaged self defense , judge found prosecution carry proof small clipping clarinews , fair use guidelines new hanover district court judge jacqueline morris ruled state failed carry burden proving marines acted cause injury accounts evening news indicated claimed self defense , judge agreed operating greg hennessy , university virginia clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent ,
cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) subject california insurance commissioner endorses federal legislation protect consumers scam insurance companies distribution usa organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 111 article 1993apr14 cbnewsi cb att com , gadfly cbnewsi cb att com \( gadfly \) writes article optilink com , cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes options n't exist probably agree think welfare invented solve problem 30 's , poverty much worse , economic infra structure eroded , ca n't keep mean , since philosophy took , economy almost collapsed excuse , philosophy \? n't idea philosophy american economy ups downs number prevailing economic philosophies , economics hardly science lifetime , philosophy socialism liberal welfare state , mean exactly wrote welfare system new deal wholly inadequate cope current state affairs absolutely response socialists take us even socialism \( 2 \) whether fathers work germane single mothers true promotion casual sexuality something plays part single mother problem 'll buy 's lots reasons , extremely far list flash pan media attention bunch middle class got philosophy experimentation flash pan \? , subculture utterly dominated tv movie industries two decades subculture \? , 're getting personal subculture see dominating tv movie industries money 'll buy , 'll sell recent movements boycott tv advertisers shown , 're sensitive sells whatever happened personal responsibility , anyway \? personally responsible decline , \? extent people encouraged responsible , yes come know major problem society today n't lack employment , 's lack people willing work huh \? \? \? tell single mother know laid 10 hour job hospital works 2 full time minimum wage jobs barely able support kid barely hey , 's proud go public assistance , jobs find benefits career path either find excuses lay people hire new ones rather give raises \? 's lot cheaper oddly enough , people know manage find employment almost immediately maybe needs move cheaper part country , jobs plentiful , cost living lower west side chicago cheap gets squalor city tell places 's cheap live jobs abundant 'll pass sonoma county live strange wondrous place , sir inexpensive housing , exactly cheap , los angeles , either lots employment , utterly surrounded socialists well , suppose 's sort environment would attract socialists , least dissuade , 's areas lot wealthy breed socialists spoiled rich kids , feeling guilty wealth guilty enough give away look politicians take limited wealth away see lot people willing nay , eager work n't see system makes feasible 's welfare , nobody enjoys , n't jobs us expanding industrial capacity always mill go work skills learn , future 's mcdonalds odd experience anyone know opposite california \? \? \? yup mr cramer , low budget operation drugs cheap money referring aid families \( afdc \) well , doubt much goes drugs n't much left buying food , little first place sure , read cases , 's makes news show statistics afdc abuse tell relatives known , drugs came first , food secondary ken clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent ,
cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) subject lincoln slavery \( top ten tricks play american voter \) organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 27 article cb , cb \( chris \) writes craig depken writes fact south number slave owners true , relatively small numbers \( around 1200 \) hundred slaves \( get references exact numbers \) bearing discussion , saw figure total number slave owners 300 , 000 anyone figure many slaves \? many farmers without slaves \? chris e mail address cb cray com region total population free blacks slaves u 32 , 227 , 616 487 , 1 5 3 , 953 , 818 12 3 confederacy 9 , 103 , 332 132 , 760 1 5 3 , 521 , 110 38 7 union slave states 3 , 212 , 041 128 , 158 4 0 432 , 586 13 5 union states 23 , 124 , 284 354 , 310 1 5 432 , 708 1 9 union free states 19 , , 243 226 , 152 1 1 122 0 0 clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent ,
cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) subject evidence organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 28 article bu edu , kane buast7 bu edu \( hot young star \) writes bk tell 's immoral homosexuality \? cc promiscuity characterizes hmmm 've told 've monogamous almost 4 years , really n't get nearly homosexual n't believe 've changed story yet maintain homosexual activity still immoral care elaborate \? matter , explain immoral \? kane buast7 , astro bu edu \( hot young star \) astronomy dept , boston university , fact important making love \( actually , case , sex \) clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent ,
cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) subject new study gay percentage organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 27 santa rosa \( cal \) press democrat , april 15 , 1993 , p b2 male sex survey gay activity low new natonal study male sexual behavior , thorough examination american men 's sexual practices published since kinsey report four decades ago , shows 2 percent men surveyed engaged homosexual sex 1 percent considered exclusively homosexual figures homosexuality study released wednesday alan guttmacher institute significantly lower 10 percent figure part conventional wisdom since published kinsey report article also contains numbers number sexual partners median number sexual partners men 20 39 7 3 compared table already posted masters , johnson , kolodny showing male homosexual partners , apparent homosexual men dramatically promiscuous general male population 's shame n't breakdown straight men vs gay bi men would show even dramatically much promiscuous gay bi men clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent ,
cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) subject concentrate child molesters \? organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 27 article 1993apr13 lclark edu , lclark edu \( bil \) writes article murdoch acc virginia edu gsh7w fermi clas virginia edu \( greg hennessy \) writes article optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes , homosexuals paid higher insurance rates straights , good reason , government made illegal well go philosophy many children think help pay insurance premiums \? \? \? children obviously cannot afforded , since insurance companies pay prenatal children born horrible flaws cost system arm leg kept alive \? pay part society take care one another oddly enough , dependent coverage costs bit one self alone really believe claims , could make lot money starting homosexuals health insurance co refuse insure breeders shudder think premiums like bil iii clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent ,
rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu \( ryan c scharfy \) subject tories could win lottery clinton gst \? nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 48 article dscomsa desy de hallam zeus02 desy de writes article 1993apr15 news columbia edu , gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) writes cmk world std com \( charles kozierok \) writes gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) writes secondly , canadian worked participates insurance \( 's negative option , explicitly decline \) knows premium deducted separately yes , americans actually problem money taken pay others' health care note , canadian german health insurance voluntary true required insurance law method collection effectively makes tax selfish bastards unfortunately , number diminished recently , president gets us , hope reversal trend well right hoping selfish bastards pity n't look 12 years regan bush selfish bastard ecconomy done country elect selfish bastard government run country , thats selfish bastards bush regan gave tax breaks ultra rich paid borrowing incomes middle class country hardly ruined fact , booming compared 1980 election whole usa gone hell reagan bush caused , lame , pathetic , old 's wrong reagan bush economy grew 1 1 trillion dollars entire economy germany , kind , gentle country , many peoples' books joke ryan
clinton hq campaign92 org \( clinton gore '92 \) subject clinton press release appointments organization project gnu , free software foundation , 675 mass ave , cambridge , 02139 , usa 1 \( 617 \) 876 3296 lines 101 nntp posting host life ai mit edu white house office press secretary immediate release april 15 , 1993 american university president joseph duffey named head , mica chair board international broadcasting washington , c president clinton today announced intention nominate american university president former state department assistant secretary joseph duffey director united states information agency president also designated daniel mica chairman board international broadcasting joe duffey 's expertise fields education , communications foreign affairs vast serve well takes helm works promote ideals democracy freedom abroad , president said president american university washington , c since 1991 , duffey previously served nine years chancellor president university massachusetts amherst 1977 served assistant secretary state , education cultural affairs state department duffey served chairman national endowment humanities presidents carter reagan 1978 1980 , duffey served united states delegate general conference united nations educational , scientific cultural organization 1991 , duffey served joint head u delegation observing national elections ethiopia , anniversary year , independent foreign affairs agency within executive branch explains supports u foreign policy national security interests abroad wide range information programs among agency 's programs fulbright academic program , voice america , satellite television system network overseas libraries cultural centers agency 210 posts 140 countries \( \) press release pg 2 mica becomes chairman board international broadcasting serving member board since 1991 dan mica done excellent job board international broadcasting expect continue chairman promote cause democracy abroad , president said biographical sketches follow joseph duffey served president american university since 1991 prior tenure american , duffey served chancellor president university massachusetts amherst \( 1982 91 \) guest scholar brookings institution \( 1982 \) served chairman national endowment humanities 1977 82 assistant secretary state , education cultural affairs department state 1977 duffey holds 14 honorary degrees american colleges universities 1980 named commander order crown king belgium member council foreign relations since 1979 duffey received ba marshall university 1954 , bd andover newton theological school 1958 , stm yale university 1963 ph harvard seminary foundation 1969 duffey member national business higher education forum founder co chairman western massachusetts economic development conference duffey married anne four sons daniel mica former u representative 14th district florida served board international broadcasting since 1991 tenure congress 1979 89 served house committee foreign relations appointed president reagan congressional representative united nations 30 30 30
dsh eceyv ncsu edu \( doug holtsinger \) subject pro abortion feminist leader endorses trashing free speech rights organization ncsu lines 38 51 arrested defying judge 's order abortion protest rally miami herald , april 11 , 1993 melbourne , florida circuit judge robert 's order prohibits anti abortion within 36 feet property line aware woman center choice even across street , may display pictures dead fetuses sing chant loud enough heard patients inside clinic protesters say ruling wiped first amendment constitution ``this sidewalk , '' said joe carroll , 33 , marched children , mary grace , 8 , john , 7 ``i 's sidewalk really protesting abortion protesting denial rights assembly , religion , speech judge trashing constitution '' children 's grandmother led away , , carroll father arrested outside clinic , , president washington , c based feminist majority foundation , called florida legislature congress pass laws tough judge 's order , covers counties ``this cannot go , '' said ``this freedom speech , total psychological warfare violence ridiculous ask clinics go court court get protection ''
arf genesis mcs com \( jack schmidling \) subject defamation league organization mcsnet contributor , chicago , il lines 235 distribution world nntp posting host localhost mcs com following posted doubt yigal ahrens considering importance issue almost total blackout except california , reposting groups la times , friday , april 9 , 1993 p a1 evidence adl spy operation seized police richard c paddock , times staff writer san francisco police thursday served search warrants anti defamation league los angeles , seizing evidence nationwide intelligence network accused keeping files 950 political groups , newspapers labor unions many 12 , 000 people describing spy operation great detail , san francisco authorities simultaneously released voluminous documents telling operatives anti defamation league searched trash infiltrated organizations gather intelligence arab american , right wing called pinko organizations representatives anti defamation league , well known organization u jewish community dedicated fighting anti semitism , declined detailed comment thursday denied breaking laws police organization maintains undercover operatives gather political intelligence least seven cities , including los angeles san francisco groups focus spy operation span political spectrum , including groups ku klux klan , white aryan resistance , operation rescue , greenpeace , national advancement colored people , united farm workers jewish defense league also list mills college , board directors san francisco public television station san francisco bay guardian newspaper people subjects spy operation included former republican rep pete , jailed political extremist lyndon h larouche los angeles times foreign correspondent scott kraft , based south africa authorities said much material collected groups confidential information obtained illegally law enforcement agencies also alleged data individuals organizations sold separately south african government addition allegations obtaining confidential information police , anti defamation league could face total 48 felony counts properly reporting employment chief west coast spy , roy bullock , according affidavit filed justify search warrant anti defamation league disguised payments bullock 25 years 550 week beverly hills attorney bruce hochman , paid bullock , according documents released san francisco hochman , former president jewish federation council greater los angeles one state 's leading tax attorneys , city late next week could reached comment , office said 1990 , hochman , former u prosecutor , also member panel appointed sen pete wilson secretly make initial recommendations new federal judges california hochman former regional president anti defamation league league , initially police , denied repeatedly intelligence gathering operation broke laws league officials confirm deny whether bullock employee said simply traded information police departments people might involved hate crimes affidavit filed obtain warrants thursday 's searches , san francisco police alleged adl employees apparently less truthful providing information earlier search conducted without warrant david lehrer , executive director los angeles adl office , said organization violated law nothing nefarious operate done , said record speaks police affidavit contends lehrer sole control secret fund used pay fact finding operations lehrer , according documents , signed checks account name l patterson adl official said account used pay subscriptions wide variety extremist publications might balk sending directly anti defamation league bullock , 58 , collecting intelligence adl nearly 40 years , defended efforts lengthy interview san francisco police said gathered names many sources entered computer headings skins , necessarily mean surveillance might never see call 99 , bullock said n't mean anything 're files 's threat anyone 's civil rights name appears files , say , ' recent years , bullock worked closely san francisco police officer tom gerard , fled last fall questioned fbi case former cia employee , gerard supplied bullock criminal records department motor vehicles information home addresses , vehicle registration , physical characteristics drivers license photographs using files gathered anti defamation league , gerard bullock also provided information south african government , receiving 16 , 000 four years , documents show file times staff writer kraft , apparently sold south african government , provides insight hit miss nature spy operation file notes kraft 's articles appear frequently times well researched written , little else file accurate brief entry confuses kraft another scott kraft provides south african government wrong kraft 's physical description , photograph personal information nevertheless , documents provide illuminating details bullock decades infiltrated manner organizations , left wing radicals , searching regularly trash target groups using anti defamation league funds , also ran paid informants code names scott scumbag worked closely police officers coast , exchanged information fbi worked federal agencies , including bureau alcohol , tobacco firearms bullock 's work paid informant fbi spying behalf anti defamation league south african government proved fbi learned agent foreign government began investigating , leading probe anti defamation league 's intelligence network anti defamation league employed undercover operatives gather information los angeles , san francisco , new york , washington , chicago , st louis atlanta , according affidavit investigators joining san francisco police searching league offices los angeles bank investigators office san francisco dist atty arlo smith state franchise tax board los angeles police department , earlier refused cooperate investigation , informed searches los angeles invited participate investigators suspect confidential information anti defamation league files may come los angeles police officers los angeles times , saturday , april 10 , 1993 p adl vows cooperate spy investigation richard c paddock , times staff writer san francisco anti defamation league defended record civil rights group friday said cooperate authorities investigating whether organization collected confidential police information citizens groups san francisco dist atty arlo smith said anti defamation league employees involved intelligence gathering could face many felony counts receiving confidential files , eavesdropping , tax violations conspiracy police accused anti defamation league truthful spying operations , collected information 12 , 000 individuals 950 political groups across political spectrum hundreds pages documents released prosecutors thursday show adl maintained nationwide intelligence network kept files political figures even , smith suggested anti defamation league shut spy operation , prosecutors would take account deciding charges file statement released washington , national director abraham h foxman described adl jewish defense agency fought protect minorities bigotry discrimination 80 years foxman said organization regarded credible source extremist groups tradition routinely providing information police , journalists , academics , government officials public never policy adl obtain information illegally , said like journalists , order protect confidentiality physical safety sources , adl comment nature identity source information , foxman said anti defamation league refused acknowledge one longtime employees , roy bullock , anything private individual alleged adl ' among documents released prosecutors detailed statements showing adl weekly payments bullock beverly hills attorney bruce hochman roy would penetrate organizations needed arrangement adl , hochman told san francisco police investigator hochman could reached friday home office comment despite anti defamation league 's assertion cooperate authorities , san francisco police said group turn pertinent documents voluntary search group 's offices los angeles san francisco last fall second round searches thursday , time search warrants , produced vast quantity records , primarily dealing financial transactions , smith said searches may necessary least month charges filed , said investigation , course , go wherever facts lead us , district attorney said yigal arens usc isi tv made ! arens isi edu js
cmort ncoast org \( christopher morton \) subject af red army fraction \( \) communique reply cmort ncoast org \( christopher morton \) organization north coast public access nix , cleveland , oh lines 33 quoted cs ualberta ca \( eric william \) article ncoast org , cmort ncoast org \( christopher morton \) writes quoted dscomsa desy de hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) n't wonderfull way people make sadistic murder gang sound like altruism \? gee phil , 'd remember people monitoring net 'd also remember much sense humor ed damn n't big brother \? time thought revolutionaries , blowing things killing odd innocent person process , really love us \( 'cause everybody knows materialism save even get killed first \) fool 've fail see order make stew repression , break eggs evil productive elements society , eggs damn spirit , full speed ahead 're like bunch educated , new york jewish aclu lawyers fighting eliminate school prayer public schools arkansas holly silva
clinton hq campaign92 org \( clinton gore '92 \) subject clinton press briefing george stephanopoulos 4 15 93 organization project gnu , free software foundation , 675 mass ave , cambridge , 02139 , usa 1 \( 617 \) 876 3296 lines 1135 nntp posting host life ai mit edu white house office press secretary immediate release april 15 , 1993 press briefing george stephanopoulos briefing room 1 04 p edt mr stephanopoulos good afternoon q could lawn \? mr stephanopoulos would nice let 's go cherry blossoms 'll like president q stimulus package dead \? mr stephanopoulos absolutely q tell us dole talks \? said good visit , compromise mr stephanopoulos yes president good talk senator dole last night think said , specific compromises either side , although good discussion jobs package issues well know , president first called senator dole believe tuesday night talk russian aid package speak senator dole called back wednesday morning president instead spoke tony lake , close conversation , indicated wanted speak president jobs stimulus package finally talked yesterday afternoon close discussion said would another talk last night , , senator new hampshire although specific compromises made either side , say would continue discussions 's q well , giving \? standing making concessions \? mr stephanopoulos n't know 's phase compromise made president said consistently , intends come forward adjusted package believes package , believes 's going take adjustments get minority release , 's willing make adjustments q subject vat mr stephanopoulos oh , boy q stay one minute \? mr stephanopoulos sure q problem five minutes q know decisions made , would lead health group believe vat might necessary \? mr stephanopoulos sorry , andrea , i'm going go road decisions made president said morning , number groups , number members congress , number organizations recommended looked working group looking , decisions made q follow , done directly \? labor business groups touch president \? mr stephanopoulos knowledge , although 's lot people public decisions support vat president made decision q meetings 's task force advisers , discussed funding issue possible options would \? mr stephanopoulos n't think presented decision , q decision , discussed option \? mr stephanopoulos , lot levels briefing believe vat presented president , okay , something decide q 're saying n't know considered , though , \? mr stephanopoulos , said 's considered q knew q discussed advisers \? 's i'm asking mr stephanopoulos president said 's considered know level discussion vat something working groups looking n't even know 's q n't say considering , , stage \? mr stephanopoulos , think 're getting something metaphysical debate right considered q well , one said , n't reviewed mr stephanopoulos true repeated q george , concern result definite statement made february promise considered 'd let us know , trickle way , may development credibility gap issue others \? mr stephanopoulos n't think mean , public knowledge considered q embarrassed absolute statements made platform effect table considered , come people , mr stephanopoulos well , wait second came administration talking \? q i'm saying , though , president said would let us know mr stephanopoulos right q people said said , believe , 's going program mr stephanopoulos march 25th q march 25th mr stephanopoulos circumstances change q well , understand find rooting around fine print interview mr stephanopoulos rooting around know good job read usa today article \( laughter \) deputy director secretary health human services mean , common anytime guys write story quote somebody clinton administration , headline 'll look right , ap story clinton wants money spying q remark considered , 'd tell us \? mr stephanopoulos administration 's concerned , 'd let know q \? mr stephanopoulos yes absolutely say morning \? q dragged yesterday mr stephanopoulos n't dragged deputy director , secretary health human services say considered administration administration policy q authorized trial balloons , orchestrated leaks \? mean , mr stephanopoulos asked questions , answered questions q 're saying n't dragged , less made clear yesterday considering mr stephanopoulos absolutely clear painfully clear q particular political strategy making clear administration considering new tax increase tax day \? mr stephanopoulos , issue considered asked considered answered considered q george , new york times q yesterday \? mr stephanopoulos asked q new york times reports today secretary reich chief economist labor department used apples oranges numbers order portray last month 's unemployment figures way supportive president 's job stimulus bill , turned totally false mr stephanopoulos n't know totally false , think \( laughter \) chief economist labor department grant inappropriate mixing , say q question , president concerned behavior amounts corrupting government data \? 's , \? mr stephanopoulos chief economist said mistake made , wo n't happen , 's end matter q n't information goes president \? q could go back stimulus package mr stephanopoulos 's two separate pieces information think 's confusion q first learn mistake made \? mr stephanopoulos read article morning q far know , president aware \? mr stephanopoulos think q aware read new york times \? mr stephanopoulos n't know knowledge q ever hear morning \? anything \? mr stephanopoulos n't q n't president given erroneous spin purpose \? speeches , arguments \? mr stephanopoulos well , i'm sure statements true labor department granted mixing one sentence , essentially , misleading said mistake said would n't q drop something choose spin make issue \? mr stephanopoulos whenever fewer people work , 're n't take away need get jobs package going q could go back stimulus package minute said president plans come forward amendment timetable still amendment would laid monday voted tuesday , , conversation dole , talk possibility putting days give time discussion \? mr stephanopoulos think point 's changes schedule n't know discussed timing like q believe 're closer getting closer week last week \? mr stephanopoulos , believe 're going pass jobs package president prepared make adjustments order get happen n't know votes particular time n't know 's going happen vote president believes deeply jobs package wants get done q indication situation changed \? mr stephanopoulos 're going continue work 'll know votes taken q george , last week said various people administration saying could n't go dole , going try go around subject compromise , least compromise wanted anything like one could accept week 're talking 've realized effort n't going work \? mr stephanopoulos 's senator dole wanted talk president stimulus package q initiated conversation \? mr stephanopoulos yes q secretary reich morning said , fact , president willing compromise bill say 's making mr stephanopoulos n't know 's exactly said think said n't indication compromises yet would compromise , president n't want compromise president n't want compromise make adjustments get , q officials yesterday said working series adjustments might made public actual vote mr stephanopoulos 's possible q today \? mr stephanopoulos i'm sure exactly happen , think 's possible 'll come forward sort different package , senate democrats come forward sort different package order get passed q understood conversations dole , first one discussion 'll get back tonight details adjustments , whatever phrase offer details adjustments \? mr stephanopoulos think 's question detailed mean , think general discussion package last night , subsequent conversation yesterday afternoon believe follow discussions today senate , necessarily president senator dole let reiterate , neither side made specific compromises date something 'll let know i'm suggesting senator dole accepted anything 've talked 've offered anything hard way q follow discussions president dole \? mr stephanopoulos think senator mitchell going talk senator dole q threat \? \( laughter \) q president say senator dole , right , number overall size , dole say president , go high \? talk numbers \? mr stephanopoulos n't think negotiation respect discussion positions q discuss actual numbers \? mr stephanopoulos i'm sure know talked basic outlines packages think talked programs cared n't know got level many x billion dollars q dole sign package \? mr stephanopoulos , course q white house anything protesters showed new hampshire today senator dole speaking \? way organized mr stephanopoulos knowledge , q president touch senators kohl feingold \? mr stephanopoulos n't think 's talked , q george , president considering palatable fact national sales tax instead continuously pay \? going scrap proposed tax privileged , pay \? mr stephanopoulos president believes deeply tax rates upper income americans , presented budget , go think second half question , 'll refer briefing yesterday q george , subject accuracy information , suggested day stimulus package included money would solve water problem milwaukee apparently true 's actually waste water money mr stephanopoulos 's waste water money wisconsin , could go milwaukee q would affect drinking water problem 's waste water money , right \? mr stephanopoulos would affect water treatment overall q implication statement day would help fix disease problem milwaukee would agree 's case \? mr stephanopoulos i'm sure specifics know goes overall water treatment wisconsin q leftover question morning , , president find task force vat \? mr stephanopoulos i'm sure exactly n't know assume came last certainly time commented past two days ago q sometime since march 25th \? mr stephanopoulos think 's right n't know exact date q george , president morning mentioned labor business groups vat tax apparently , national association manufacturers talks perhaps vat tax okay replaces tax president feel perhaps might place tax 's proposed , totally addition taxes 's already proposed \? mr stephanopoulos think 've said say vat point mean , 's considered health care working groups , president n't made decisions beyond q would finance health care , would n't replace tax finances would n't replace income tax , instance \? mr stephanopoulos discussions q terms getting vat tax congress , senator dole 's press release today said vat tax day think chance getting congress \? would chance \? mr stephanopoulos idea q consideration whether put forward \? mr stephanopoulos would become consideration president decide 's consideration q said beginning briefing circumstances changed caused vat consideration mr stephanopoulos yes , president referred morning groups came forward said something considered q circumstances changed \? 's difference emphatically ruled groups asked considered \? mr stephanopoulos 's said q true \? mr stephanopoulos yes q , fact , understanding sin taxes would produce enough money health care benefits \? mr stephanopoulos i'm going get deliberations q , george mr stephanopoulos consideration , president said , groups came forward said something ought consider working groups looking q thing 's changed since prior statement prior statement vat \? mr stephanopoulos yes q explain groups information got groups wanted \? reading newspaper groups make presentations \? mr stephanopoulos think groups know , health care task force met dozens groups q president 's knowledge groups come forward mr stephanopoulos think referring coming working groups obviously , also published positions newspapers q certain groups briefed group 's presentations \? mr stephanopoulos n't know 've briefed mean , detailed briefings know working groups decided look pressed groups q kind arguments groups make persuasive enough president would change position previously \? mr stephanopoulos n't know , 's 've longstanding positions would good way finance health care q president n't aware longstanding positions \? mr stephanopoulos may level obviously , 's governor long time knows basic arguments vat tax q 're trying figure 're telling us change , thing affected change president 's attitude toward vat february mr stephanopoulos president 's attitude n't necessarily changed mean , made decision q know , president said table 're saying thing 's changed positions groups , except 're also describing longstanding positions n't see change groups n't change position 's made president mr stephanopoulos well , 've made presentations health care task force q 's relationship fact sin taxes said suggested february favored produce enough revenue finance mr stephanopoulos n't think ever suggested would produce revenue q well , suggested thought appropriate ways finance health care mr stephanopoulos say n't know said anything refute q , fact , task force discovered would n't enough revenue taxes finance kind core benefits mr stephanopoulos , n't think task force ever suggested would q george , advocated vat tax , would break promise raise taxes middle class pay programs \? mr stephanopoulos ca n't comment hypothetical situation q promise would promise raise taxes middle class pay programs prevent seeking vat tax \? mr stephanopoulos president made decisions vat tax , 'll tell 'll explain implications q specific groups cite business , labor otherwise whose recommendations health care task force prompted consideration \? mr stephanopoulos n't specific n't q george , tell us extend alternatives , instance , employer tax sin taxes financing options also still table options \? mr stephanopoulos , members task force representatives working groups said , looking wide variety options think ira said 20 different options consideration i'm going comment q 's scope mr stephanopoulos i'm going comment , q 's scope need \? much talking produced one combination mr stephanopoulos 's health care task force looking q since 's going briefing miyazawa visit , two questions one , generally president hope use meeting , specifically , task complicated japanese anger vancouver note remark market access press conference \? mr stephanopoulos vancouver note \? q mean yes q yes mr stephanopoulos well , n't know saw prime minister 's press conference asked question note gave gracious complete answer asked question questions trade something certainly discussed prime minister president obviously trade imbalance japan u want something q also comments prime minister made suggested united states come heavy terms trade going oblige \? mr stephanopoulos think president state views trade clearly views trade deficit clearly n't necessarily want agree characterization prime minister 's comments q need specific export targets , specific numerical targets 's going discuss miyazawa \? mr stephanopoulos 're going broad discussion wide range trade issues n't want get specifics meeting q \? q 's crux issue , right \? whether president believe without specific numerical targets , really , said press conference , sort hopeless going change much \? mr stephanopoulos president believes must pressure japan turn trade imbalance around want get specifics would done q president believe stimulus package announced yesterday rectify imbalance \? mr stephanopoulos think , first , president wants get full briefing stimulus package prime minister miyazawa , 'll make comment q russian aid package \? seems confusion u views , secretary christopher saying bentsen saying japanese may need , japanese saying 's heard \? mr stephanopoulos , 're going continue work allies g 7 , 're going continue press help russian reform , russian democratic reform think , far , good announcement tokyo 're going continue work allies bilateral packages q think japanese need \? mr stephanopoulos 're going continue work allies much q secretary christopher asked today today show morning thought margaret thatcher 's comments bosnia policy said , 's rather emotional response mr stephanopoulos emotional issue q right emotional problem white house condone kind remark \? mr stephanopoulos think secretary christopher 's remarks speaks president believes also deeply troubling situation 're trying find answers q specific rather emotional response specific term \? mr stephanopoulos , speaks q connection , n't seem numbers people killed moment , good american policy put decisions might made help boris yeltsin win referendum \? mr stephanopoulos example \? q take stronger action , take military action air strikes , anything done \? mr stephanopoulos president believes must done push harder sanctions also know , administration discussing lifting arms embargo believes appropriate ways increase pressure time q response critics would say u trying help boris yeltsin retain presidency \? mr stephanopoulos 're wrong 're pressing hard serbs come negotiating table 're pressing hard increased sanctions , 're talking allies arms embargo q putting great store vance owen getting people agree , vance owen said military force extent would acceptable change thinking \? mr stephanopoulos clearly , 're going listen whatever people put much time situation say point , president moving forward sanctions talking arms embargo q follow dee dee comment morning said would able provide administration officials could document effect sanctions bosnia going able , anything mr stephanopoulos n't think 's said q 's exactly said mr stephanopoulos n't think 's true said would look situation kind evidence provided bosnia obviously , connections bosnian serbs serbs belgrade tightening screws serbs belgrade , effect time know day day , minute minute , kind help given two exact effect , clearly , slowing shipment goods belgrade effect serbs kind effect eventually bosnian serbs n't know one thing would say effect , n't know 'd fighting much q first lady 's tax returns going released \? mr stephanopoulos think 's joint tax return probably later today q president considering signing executive order banning discrimination homosexuals federal work force part gay rights march next week \? mr stephanopoulos n't think 's proposal time , know q 's something president promised campaign would mr stephanopoulos seen n't think 's anything 's plate right q meeting gay rights leaders point issue \? mr stephanopoulos n't know issue assume 'll meet representatives gay lesbian community sometime soon , meets representatives lots different groups communities q know 's scheduled mr stephanopoulos 's probably going tomorrow q probably going tomorrow \? \( laughter \) q 's good thing asked q 's probably going \? \( laughter \) mr stephanopoulos n't know q long mr stephanopoulos n't know 's know q know 's 3 00 p tomorrow \? \( laughter \) mr stephanopoulos n't know time n't even know sure 's going tomorrow q environmental groups asked make major speech next week kind going happen , know \? mr stephanopoulos n't know 've asked , think president always planned , last year , give speech earth day expect 's exactly earth day , might day something like q planning sign announce signing biodiversity treaty connection earth day \? mr stephanopoulos , n't know specific timing something like , 's certainly something discussion something 've working q campaign finance reform \? mr stephanopoulos 're working q think next week \? mr stephanopoulos i'm sure q biodiversity treaty something 're working \? missed question mr stephanopoulos yes , something 're working asked ready signed , said n't know anything 's something 've certainly working q know organizations might represented meeting gay lesbian groups \? mr stephanopoulos n't q know going reconsider town day march \? mr stephanopoulos 's got senate meeting jamestown , believe 's also going giving speech american association newspaper publishers boston sunday , last year q would told us pressed question \? mr stephanopoulos \? q gays mr stephanopoulos went president 's schedule day , certainly q \? george , day publisher 's speech \? sunday \? mr stephanopoulos think 's sunday q saturday 'll jamestown \? mr stephanopoulos yes q 're going jamestown one day \? mr stephanopoulos , i'm sure n't know long senate thing goes might go overnight n't know q would made gay meeting public , right \? mr stephanopoulos i'm certain meeting n't know open press , would told q mean , , far tell , first time history president met oval office mr stephanopoulos n't say going oval office \( laughter \) n't i'm say 's , n't say \( laughter \) q white house bush administration gay officials invited bill signing ceremony white house done wanted make sure mr stephanopoulos well , president would n't anything like q certainly q marching orders president give general vessey \? mr stephanopoulos good discussion half hour today wanted important thing full accounting american obviously look circumstances surrounding new document president stressed wanted fullest possible accounting said even consider changes policy towards vietnam 'll looking vietnam 's response questions raised document 'll also look investigations discrepancy cases , increased efforts remains , implementing trilateral investigations access military archives ambassador toon also briefed president activities joint commission document q vietnam says 's fake dod analysis stage \? mr stephanopoulos 's completed yet , 's also first thing general vessey bring vietnamese q number defense officials saying think 600 prisoners referred , fact , non americans vietnamese captured referred americans time time people mr stephanopoulos n't final determination 're going wait complete review , 'll make judgment q know n't final determination , given intense public interest , think 's likely possibility \? mr stephanopoulos n't want characterize way review complete q george , topic scheduled speech boston \? mr stephanopoulos q president going press conference tomorrow miyazawa \? mr stephanopoulos think , i'm positive yes , expect , yes q toon vessey \? mr stephanopoulos yes q meeting \? mr stephanopoulos yes q question \? mr stephanopoulos ambassador toon vessey , answer yes q response wall street journal report morning president 's distressed press perhaps 's distressed \? mr stephanopoulos well , response think article highly misleading extent implied president restricted access press would point 's answered 358 questions 77 occasions , predecessors would also point also q many questions \? mr stephanopoulos three hundred fifty eight , 77 occasions q many jogging \? mr stephanopoulos well , , 's actually good question , andrea would point article also implied questions answered tightly controlled photo opportunities , patently false 's 13 press conferences either east room , oval office roosevelt room briefing room , addition questions taken photo opportunities , q oval office press conference \? mr stephanopoulos 's answered questions east room 's five east room , 's one oval office , 's one rose garden , 's one two roosevelt room white house , washington press corps addition , 's 17 interviews local television 's met editorial board portland 's hour long interview dan rather 's interviews local press california , florida connecticut q address question attitude \? article implies n't q n't like us \? \( laughter \) q really get blamed post story \? q story held responsible mr stephanopoulos n't think i'm going comment q denying president shown displeasure publicly \? mr stephanopoulos commenting discussions president q president write letter chris webber \? mr stephanopoulos \? q letter university michigan basketball player \? mr stephanopoulos oh , yes q authentic letter \? mr stephanopoulos yes q since president first talked vat february , said time thought probably exceptions made basic food clothing still hold position given impact could \? mr stephanopoulos , ca n't comment proposal n't made q george , president agenda meeting gay leaders tomorrow \? mr stephanopoulos well , think general meeting wide range issues care including aids issues civil rights q military issue \? mr stephanopoulos i'm certain come q using event name aids mr stephanopoulos n't think q george , specifically president prepare tomorrow 's meeting prime minister miyazawa \? mr stephanopoulos 's briefing memos 's general discussions members treasury department , trade representative others q report yet \? mr stephanopoulos n't know report referred times , ambassador brief today q \? mr stephanopoulos yes q intend use instances mr stephanopoulos , n't know report 's presented obviously , president press hard case thinks violation occurred q terms wall street journal , thrust 's real schism hostility think feels way \? mr stephanopoulos said record article , think president likes reporters , think thrust article still misleading thrust article way , attitude president may may affecting access , fact , open , accessible administration recent history q come office \? \( laughter \) mr stephanopoulos 're invited press thank end 1 34 p edt 57 04 15
kennejs cs okstate edu \( kennedy james scot \) subject drug use younger age organization oklahoma state university , computer science , stillwater keywords youths drugs lsd inhalants lines 62 article follows taken wednesday , april 14 , 1993 issue usa today \( drug use younger age mike snider , p 1a \) drug use rise among kids young eighth graders usually 13 're using lsd inhalants like glue air , says new survey annual national high school senior survey drug abuse finds statistically significant increases eighth use many drugs , including marijuana , cocaine , crack , lsd inhalants may danger losing hard ground \( reducing drug use \) new , naive generation youngsters enters , says lloyd johnston , university michigan , chief researcher study sponsored department health human services drug use among high school seniors continuing decade long decline study 50 , 000 students shows percentage tried following 30 days polled 8th graders alcohol 26 cigarettes 16 marijuana 4 cocaine 0 7 10th graders alcohol 40 cigarettes 22 marijuana 8 cocaine 0 7 12th graders alcohol 51 cigarettes 28 marijuana 12 cocaine 1 3 among 12th graders , use marijuana , cocaine inhalants declined year lsd 2 eighth graders tried lsd last year , 24 1991 use lsd among seniors highest point since 1982 6 tried last year reducing drug use among students requires different kind strategy health secretary donna shalala says part overall illness prevention plan survey shows drugs easier get fewer eighth graders disapprove 's scary , shalala says dealers focusing younger , vulnerable kids scott kennedy , brewer patriot david koresh cheap thug interprets bible barrel gun atf spokesman atf cheap thug interprets constitution barrel gun
kennejs cs okstate edu \( kennedy james scot \) subject 're winning war drugs ! organization oklahoma state university , computer science , stillwater keywords drugs dea wod legalization lines 140 dea organizations would american people believe winning war drugs i'm going propaganda dea putting showing drug war 's real status help prove assertions 've also posted two articles usa today clearly demonstrate drug use among certain age groups rise wod working , 're led believe , drug abuse gone substantially reality , gone much anything , substance abuse rise i'm also going supply possible solution problem following text excerpt article rock music pot entitled hello , mary jane appears current issue time magazine \( april 19 , 1993 , p 59 \) law enforcement officials say pot advocates blowing smoke talk comeback weed perhaps change administrations , marijuana lobby full force , says robert bonner , head drug enforcement administration fact , 're losing battle 1985 23 youths ages 12 17 said smoked marijuana 1991 figure 13 , bonner says still falling bonner also offers reminder studies confirm marijuana health risks destruction nerve cells brain lung damage chart follows taken wednesday , april 14 , 1993 issue usa today \( drug use among u eigth graders mike snider , p 6d \) choices drugs used eighth graders last month estimated , per 100 students 1991 1992 pct alcohol 25 1 26 1 4 cigarettes 14 3 15 5 8 marijuana 3 2 3 7 16 2 6 3 3 27 lsd 0 6 0 9 50 cocaine 0 5 0 7 40 crack 0 3 0 5 67 source university michigan institute social research , 1993 report winning war drugs think see one tactics dea employs give people impression war drugs selectively quote statistics statistics support contention drug use gone excerpt time magazine included post excellent example organizations like dea attempt deceive public usage one particular drug may gone time usage drugs may gone \( k substitution \) also , drug usage among one particular age group may gone drug usage among another age group may gone therefore , one takes look big picture , taking consideration statistics , 's obvious called war drugs lost perhaps drug war far illegal drugs go , one factors alcohol abuse , smoking , use inhalants , magnitude drug problem country placed true perspective n't consider alcohol drug try drinking fifth whiskey sometime come back tell 's drug agencies like dea go illegal drugs one reasons drug war fruitless attempt preventing substance abuse people merely switch another drug one using becomes scarce unpopular solution drug abuse problem country may legalize drugs whose toxicity shown within reasonable limits \( wo n't drop dead using times \) couple massive drug education program reason think legalization part solution people seem able easily obtain drugs despite government 's efforts contrary money spent drug could spent effectively elsewhere \( e g , drug education \) additionally , legalization would reduce crime profit motive would taken drug trafficking often goes along kinds crime mention fact addicts would less reason prey innocent people money order support expensive habit legalization would cause street price drugs fall substantially drugs would much affordable addicts imho , way reduce substance abuse drugs done smokers make drug use socially unacceptable rather try employ heavy handed law enforcement punish people already know , people u smoke lot less used reduction number smokers brought public awareness campaigns , laws restricting people light , warning labels cigarette packages , taxation tobacco order reduce consumption , propose similar methods used reduce substance abuse legalization carried follows drugs sold must come clear , concise information states possible health involved using product recommendations drug used things like dosage levels long drug used ought accompany packaging drug contained drugs taxed rate generates lot revenue high encourage people acquire drugs illegal channels part revenue collected drug taxes used fund drug education law enforcement make felony sell drugs minors \( people age 18 \) anyone sell drugs must dodge paying taxes drugs sell drugs warning information absent failure pay taxes drugs omitting warning information also felony establish government agency whose job insure purity safety drugs high possible agency would try prevent people getting hold bad drugs something fairly serious problem i'm sure many things 've discussed article newsgroup nevertheless , thought good idea give two cents \( actually buck half \) could get good idea currently stand wod go ahead tear post i'm sure something may wish take different view flame \) \) \) btw , posted articles usa today help prove assertions also provide information lsd usage among youths something noticed posters group interested scott kennedy , brewer patriot david koresh cheap thug interprets bible barrel gun atf spokesman atf cheap thug interprets constitution barrel gun
kennejs cs okstate edu \( kennedy james scot \) subject drug use among u eighth graders organization oklahoma state university , computer science , stillwater keywords youths drugs lsd inhalants lines 87 article follows taken wednesday , april 14 , 1993 issue usa today \( drug use among u eighth graders mike snider , p 6d \) new national survey says drugs easier get , teens using fewer deem drug use risky last two years , government officials trumpeted results national high school survey signs drug war year , officials retreating drug use eighth graders risen , according survey 50 , 000 students nationwide possible reason increase experimentation \? drug use dropped '80s , eventually students fewer drug using contemporaries act examples substance abuse 's drawbacks , says social psychologist lloyd johnston , one survey authors new wave youths must given knowledge , skills motivation resist using drugs , johnston says type resurgence possible , says eileen shiff , author experts advise parents \( delta , 14 95 \) 's issue , says prevalence alcohol drugs among teens today could result alcoholic adults decades problem baby boomer parents experimented drugs alcohol teens trying friends , parents , children 've even seen parents serving kegs beer underage kids friends , shiff says recent graduation , shiff parents organized night , lock party booze drugs allowed need fulfill parental role , otherwise peer group takes , says officials may talk war drugs , really n't done anything 've seen , says suzanne , scottsdale , , 16 , volunteer talks teens drugs , dating issues peer counseling suicide hot line , member usa today 's teen panel , says 's always going experimentation drugs real war drugs could waged education wise , says n't want give kids facts think give ideas 's birth control think give kids information accessible classes , pamphlets speakers , says education efforts need start soon kids get school kindergarten , says dallas owens , 17 , teen miami shores , fla remember kindergarten , used see \( drugs \) think kids 10th 12th grades already made minds \( using drugs \) , says scare tactics public service announcements n't working one commercial gotten right , says commercial opens two good looking girls talking prom date take hit joint hits home 's attractive , says ca n't drugs want somebody like choices drugs used eighth graders last month estimated , per 100 students 1991 1992 pct alcohol 25 1 26 1 4 cigarettes 14 3 15 5 8 marijuana 3 2 3 7 16 2 6 3 3 27 lsd 0 6 0 9 50 cocaine 0 5 0 7 40 crack 0 3 0 5 67 source university michigan institute social research , 1993 report scott kennedy , brewer patriot david koresh cheap thug interprets bible barrel gun atf spokesman atf cheap thug interprets constitution barrel gun
gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) subject candidate nntp posting host cunixb cc columbia edu reply gld cunixb cc columbia edu \( gary l dare \) organization phds hall lines 32 smith harvard edu \( steven smith \) writes cosc brocku ca \( brian ross \) writes world future , bill clinton appoint canadians govern american institutions \( starting american health care system \) benevolent canadian dictators yet another tax floated clinton administration pay new social programs , 've really begun suspect canadians , long resentful place american shadow , brainwashed american draft dodger fled canada time 1966 1968 , ways canadian socialism , awarded smokeless marijuana cigarettes got correct answers , returned states \( control wife assigned case \) attain high public office destroy evil free market forces america , thus shaping america canadian image , made second clone tissue sample said wife , run helm pro business party guise free trade inhale , many times , boot \( \( \( gld je souviens gary l dare gld columbia edu go winnipeg jets go ! ! ! gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
vlad netcom com \( vladimir \) subject many homosexuals \? organization netcom online communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) distribution usa lines 22 article apr 15 21 39 43 1993 romulus rutgers edu kaldis romulus rutgers edu \( theodore kaldis \) writes perhaps 1 , likely 2 new study \( discrediting kinsey \) says yes , saw today 6 o'clock news san francisco statistic quoted 2 2 men sex another man 1 3 themself homosexual understand course statistic goes common believe pc correct must complete bs thx vlad vladimir \( 408 \) 252 natural intelligence consulting vlad netcom com , compuserve com mci com
texx ossi com \( robert texx woodworth \) subject ca 's pedophilia laws organization open systems solutions inc lines 54 nntp posting host nym ossi com 1 clayton , man tad touch first , gay country process excluding nambla parades etc 2 nobody nambla gonna get job day care centre liberals upset also passing laws make tough background checks people 3 tell , would feel employer fired post internet \? would upset \? bet would pissed ! , posts , make company look bad posts offend dont think would right get fired dont believe gay asking hiring like affirmative action laws 60 's understanding gay community wants rights dont think people cancelled landlord finds gay dont think someone sees someone walk gay business work gay person gets fired really think justified \? 4 clayton , told parent couple times following strip paper better worse \? honestly want opinion parent strip really care childeren much friends mine tell \? much care childeren \? much care people 's childeren \? care childeren \? care sister 's childeren \? one kids told gay , would throw home middle night \? would approve childeren driving san francisco bottles beat gay people \? would condone childeren beating someone elses childeren \? await answers please flaming civilised discussion , one father another
ckincy cs umr edu \( charles kincy \) subject many homosexuals \? nntp posting host next4 cs umr edu distribution usa organization university missouri rolla , rolla , mo lines 13 article apr 15 21 39 43 1993 romulus rutgers edu kaldis romulus rutgers edu \( theodore kaldis \) writes perhaps 1 , likely 2 new study \( discrediting kinsey \) says wow , mean 2 5 homosexuals march washington \? interesting cpk 's 80 days know wallet \? slick willy 's already got hand pocket i'm afraid might grab hold
kmitchel netcom com \( kenneth c mitchell \) subject abolish selective service organization netcom line communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 34 dave borden \( borden head cfa harvard edu \) wrote selective service registration abolished start , draft immoral whether agree , n't one , military experts agree quality armed forces superior volunteer army draftees finally , government us many lists many computers \( irs , social security admistration motor vehicle registries name \) find us needs maintaining yet another list people utter waste money time let 's axe whole department , reduce deficit little bit let say , retired navy officer agree cut let 's stop eliminate c 17 transport , , , supposed carry tanks new tanks big airplane scrap seawolf ssn 21 nuclear submarine breakup ussr left us number sticky military problems , none require god 's gift submarines ground b 2 stealth bomber i'm sure 's great airplane everything designers said , half copy , ca n't afford even one crash airplanes crash said best 20 years ago high low mix extremely capable weapons systems lot cheaper , moderate capability systems ken mitchell powers delegated united states kmitchel netcom com constitution , prohibited states , citrus heights , ca reserved states respectively , people
chloupek ohstpy mps ohio state edu subject nc vs hunt \( marine gay bashing wilmington nc \) verdict organization ohio state university , department physics lines 27 article apple com , apple com \( matthew \) writes yeah , yeah , yeah anyway , impression marines question invited clinton treatment bar fight bar fight , threatening commander chief seems rather thing professional soldier also , appears two three marines sort charges pending another fight week interesting frank frank r chloupek chloupek ohstpy mps ohio state edu department physics ohio state university \( ohio state university \) one hard fast rule place party somebody else 's place p j o'rourke
chloupek ohstpy mps ohio state edu subject nc vs hunt \( marine gay bashing wilmington nc \) verdict organization ohio state university , department physics lines 48 article 1993apr14 16128 pony ingres com , ingres com \( jeff bowles \) writes tfarrell lynx dac northeastern edu \( thomas farrell \) writes questions like kind sexual participate \? think made good case \? \? \? \? \? arresting officer said bastards told purpose hoped victim would die , think defense made good case \? \? \? \? \? wonder 're losing ! 're trying win ! clip saw even worse defense attorney asking something like done serve country , compared fine upstanding examples patriotism \? n't see response n't think shown tv wish response vote pay taxes pay salary support bill rights , unlike , counselor dreams \( , real question , could federal civil rights case , since state case sham \? \( sound like well known los angeles trial \? \) probably dykes n't protected \( dykes \) civil rights laws would doubt civil rights case would order point mentioned even possible , think bad idea since smacks real strongly double jeopardy civil case damages fine since trial would proceed regardless first think bad precedent already set king trial l something like would make worse regardless bad anybody feels decision , must stand charges assault proven three marines 's stand frank \( still mad , somewhat sane \) frank r chloupek chloupek ohstpy mps ohio state edu department physics ohio state university \( ohio state university \) one hard fast rule place party somebody else 's place p j o'rourke
ckincy cs umr edu \( charles kincy \) subject clinton 's immunization program nntp posting host next4 cs umr edu organization university missouri rolla , rolla , mo lines 18 article 1993apr16 magnus acs ohio state edu rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu \( ryan c scharfy \) writes excuse sticking nose , parent parents allready children \( especially already free \) , n't deserve one dime tax money health care , public health care service \( know immunization program coming national health care issue slightly seperate issues , anybody would n't help kids , n't deserve tax help \) hmmmmm kids \? cpk 's 80 days know wallet \? slick willy 's already got hand pocket i'm afraid might grab hold
doctor1 cbnewse cb att com \( patrick b \) subject limiting govt \( employment \( concentrate \) organization lines 63 article 1993apr15 170731 8797 isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) writes two paragraphs two different posts splicing together intention change steve 's meaning misrepresent way n't think 've done noted another thread \( limiting govt \) , problem libertarians face insuring limited government seek become tool private interests pursue agenda failure libertarianism ideology provide reasonable way restrain actions utopian dreams marxism fails specify pure communism achieved state wither away , libertarians frequently fail show weakening power state result improvement human condition part started earlier example illinois , usa requiring anyone x automobile transfers year \( x 10 , think \) become licensed used car dealer addition , anyone used car dealer 's license least 10 cars time , time let continue example try answer steve 's questions steve , let 's say talent inclination fix resell cars either 've gotten good enough spare time bump limits , would like full time stupid , arbitrary laws prevent starting small pulling i'm protected hungry neighborhood competitor willing take low profit working extra hard fulfill needs , 're protected want life 's see libertarianism offering money truly belongs use buy car use buy car , truly car belongs use money fix car since car , sell car life truly belongs matters someone thinks 's wrong buy sell 10 cars within 12 months rather , say , 9 cars may , life money , life money money truly mine belongs use buy car perhaps car perhaps 10th car , one someone , somewhere selling , presumably , buying someone could go government insist government make us stop government would powerless stop us like property , fraud agression would powerless stop us associating seem utopian dream , basic human decency common sense real grass roots example freedom liberty yes , people acting masters , approving rejecting basic transactions , strike wonderful way improve human condition thanks awfully , patrick
ckincy cs umr edu \( charles kincy \) subject top ten signs 's age aquarius pennsylvania avenue nntp posting host next4 cs umr edu organization university missouri rolla , rolla , mo lines 79 article minerva cis yale edu chaudhary amar yale edu \( amar chaudhary \) writes 's top ten response mr ipser 's list 8 happens takes money make country work , provide services people need , help solve problems need solved granted , things probably done efficiently less money , things going cost money i'm sick tired hearing everyone whining taxes time want live country , pay fair share ! people pay shares fair others , continue , even presence president clinton rich elite hurt taxes shower blood dripping wound tax dagger , scream yell , taxes killing poor middle class , i'm tired wealthy getting free ride country sure , pay lot taxes , want share pain ! ! , even slick willy fair , , seeing wife qualify one wealthy people talking \? 're lower end wealthy , wealthy 7 ca n't believe hypocrites people ask people give lives country complain taxes 're willing send die stupid obsession fighting enemy best n't affect us worst really friend , right tell n't pay taxes ! yah , think draft vietnam sack shit , get pick choose laws obey , mr chaudhary \? , shall set follow laws like , 'll follow laws like arrangement \? 6 hey , think beaded curtains add lovely 60 's esque touch ! never thought much beaded curtains beaded seat covers , hand 5 health care human right deleted n't think going respond , changed mind tell , think health care human right \? n't flame anything , wonder next thing know , free public transportation human right maybe membership prestigious health \? sorry grease hill ya 4 make love , war ! sure wrap go free love stuff around \( , fda gets thumb ass , use neat new reality condom \) 3 contrary popular belief , possible male feminist time discriminate deny equal opportunity majority population plain wrong , trying force sort tradition role even worse women certainly much offer world men , day gender discrimination finally broken going make revolutions past centuries seem like reform bills look forward amen 1 hey man , rules ! ! hell anyway \? like \? cpk 's 80 days know wallet \? slick willy 's already got hand pocket i'm afraid might grab hold
ckincy cs umr edu \( charles kincy \) subject national sales tax , movie nntp posting host next4 cs umr edu organization university missouri rolla , rolla , mo lines 84 article aa05233 inet gw 2 pa dec com blh uiboise idbsu edu \( broward l horne \) writes babble deleted well , form guaranteed health care n't bad idea , , yah , i'm bit worried run hmo 'd much rather something like canada 'll belt anyone tells move canada \) , since people yell scream ! ! ! one like canada ! ! ! , 're probably screwed predicted 1 , 000 per middle class taxpayer new taxes national sales tax impressive let great make couple predictions , 1 sun rise tomorrow 2 rush bash clinton next show 3 turn clinton 's love child chances , 'll get least one right , i'm lucky may even get two , predictions ! \) nst raised 3 5 1996 ooops already okay , nst raised 5 7 1996 ca n't argue hands yer pocket , ca n't help feel around bit ii \) unemployment rise ! oh , sh \? ! mean , weakened economy collapse face tax spending , everyone handout line \? 're genius ! ! iii \) tax revenues decline deficit increase ! 'll get another deficit reduction package 1997 ! everyone dance sing ! deficit reduction spending cuts via fee increases \? paraphrase hilary clinton raise taxes middle class pay programs paraphrase bill clinton raise taxes middle class pay programs , first year polisci major tell prez never raises taxes congress voted clinton ticket get wear new label ! made usa hook , line , ! chuckle cpk 's 80 days know wallet \? slick willy 's already got hand pocket i'm afraid might grab hold
ckincy cs umr edu \( charles kincy \) subject tories could win lottery clinton gst \? nntp posting host next4 cs umr edu organization university missouri rolla , rolla , mo lines 29 article 1993apr16 magnus acs ohio state edu rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu \( ryan c scharfy \) writes country hardly ruined fact , booming compared 1980 election whole usa gone hell reagan bush caused , lame , pathetic , old 's wrong reagan bush economy grew 1 1 trillion dollars entire economy germany , kind , gentle country , many peoples' books joke drive cincinnati take look pretty , \? things much better 1980 growth went hands ron 's pals , get single dime , dammit , , i'm gonna bled death tax pay damage f ing great oh , 's another thing seems like lot people columbus drive make japanese cars hm wonder many american owned companies employ central ohio \? ohio state university \) cpk 's 80 days know wallet \? slick willy 's already got hand pocket i'm afraid might grab hold
ckincy cs umr edu \( charles kincy \) subject pro abortion feminist leader endorses trashing free speech rights nntp posting host next4 cs umr edu organization university missouri rolla , rolla , mo lines 9 words chilling effect stimulate impulses within small collection neurons call brain \? cpk 's 80 days know wallet \? slick willy 's already got hand pocket i'm afraid might grab hold
de cup hp com \( dan epstein \) subject foreign media reaction april 1 12 , part 1 3 nntp posting host cup hp com organization hewlett packard x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 2 lines 19 phill hallam baker \( hallam dscomsa desy de \) wrote first could recognise 's responsibility initiating iran iraq war providing technical assistance iran get 's oil production back capacity would also smart move , moment iran 's opec ceiling extra capacity would use bring price interests agree phill says , except point interests bring oil price consider u great britain domestic sources partly satisfy energy needs opec oil impacts germany , japan many industrial rivals two addition , proceeds sale \( especially saudi arabia , kuwait u e etc \) disproportionately u g b , economies providing incentive keep prices falling low dan epstein
gsmith lauren iwr uni heidelberg de \( gene w smith \) subject mr cramer 's organization iwr , university heidelberg , germany lines 17 article netcom com phil netcom com \( phil ronzone \) writes naw , think organizations may , paper , support abolition age consent , resemblance stops one supports removal coercive law , paper facade legitimize sexual relations children get one organization wants abolish age consent laws , whereas contrast wants abolish age consent laws makes respectable belong one organization , gene ward smith brahms gang iwr university gsmith iwr uni heidelberg de
cwinemil keys lonestar org \( chris \) subject representation territories \? \( 11 , 250 , 000 , 000 , 000 lunch \) distribution tx organization none lines 31 boyd turtle fisher com writes article keys lonestar org , cwinemil keys lonestar org \( chris \) writes btw , anyone besides non us citizens \( puerto , etc \) close full representation u house representatives \? sorry chris , puerto us citizens ok stand corrected guess , , comments \( e , pork \) puerto others making still stands \? , everybody , opinion following related topic people natives u territories representation u house rep 's u congress \? u constitution sets house representatives represent state proportion population , senate represent state equally done u territories like puerto rico \? anyone knowledge handled past , louisiana territory northwest territory \? chris chris internet cwinemil keys lonestar org uucp ! ! keys ! cwinemil
lfoard hopper virginia edu \( lawrence c foard \) subject new study gay percentage organization itc uva community access unix internet project lines 50 article 15378 optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes santa rosa \( cal \) press democrat , april 15 , 1993 , p b2 male sex survey gay activity low new natonal study male sexual behavior , thorough examination american men 's sexual practices published since kinsey report four decades ago , shows 2 percent men surveyed engaged homosexual sex 1 percent considered exclusively homosexual figures homosexuality study released wednesday alan guttmacher institute significantly lower 10 percent figure part conventional wisdom since published kinsey report 1 \) \? 2 \) interesting see reaction 2 5million queers gather washington dc 6million us event unprecidented history article also contains numbers number sexual partners median number sexual partners men 20 39 7 3 n't forget 25 20 partners compared table already posted masters , johnson , kolodny showing male homosexual partners , apparent homosexual men dramatically promiscuous general male population study show number sexual contacts said homosexual \? number 's shame n't breakdown straight men vs gay bi men would show even dramatically much promiscuous gay bi men fuck join pythagorean reform church ! repent evil irrational numbers bean eating ways accept 10 heart ! call pythagorean reform church bbs 508 793 9568
bearpaw world std com \( bearpaw \) subject mow bodycount organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 33 spp zabriskie berkeley edu \( steve pope \) writes thoughts going count gorgeous bodies mow \? press \? white house staff \? junior senator \? king motss bi \? curious whose bias going see numbers get brought probably , law enforcement people \( park service police c cops \) , use aerial photographs extrapolate based density crowd small regions sort techniques derive army intelligence cia methods estimating troop strength , tend skewed always come inflated numbers , justify bigger budgets judging past experience \( '87 march , peace justice march year , 3 different pro \) , park service come estimate approximately 1 2 estimate organizers come though last choice march went sign system , numbers ended closer 've got media types helicopters , rolling dice believe mow plans handing sort thingy , basing count see two problems one , get everybody take one \( one \) \? two , could n't possibly able choose color design wo n't clash somebody 's outfit ! bearpaw
lynn uio \( malcolm lynn \) subject sexual proposition sexual harassment \? lines 2 nntp posting host uio organization university oslo lines 3
pjs269 tijc02 uucp \( paul schmidt \) subject employment \( concentrate child molesters \? organization advocates self government davy crockett chapter x newsreader tin 1 1 pl4 lines 50 sys1 exnet co uk \( xavier gallagher \) writes make distinction working survive paying dues mother nature form labour working joe option working joe stands earth work expects pay mother nature right survive property laws create layer parasites get fat fact people option except work factories want people able get things need life property ownership may ideal , far better letting people get need live productive , life first experiment america , property ownership denied , caused , starvation , hunger , death people know pilgrims originally tried common property grow food common food store many people know suffered first winters arriving , pilgrims made property common shared work resulting crops went common store much debate new governor bradford land assigning plots family according perry change immediately justified increased industry inhabitants larger planted bradford acknowledged failure communism wrote experience common course condition , tried years amongst godly sober men , may well evince vanity conceit plato 's ancients applauded later times taking away property bringing community commonwealth would make happy flourishing wiser god community \( far \) found breed much confusion discontent retard much employment would benefit comfort bradford blame failure strangers , basic selfishness men wrote seeing men corruption , god wisdom saw another course words , according , bradford found private enterprise suitable economic policy mankind fallen state let 's make mistake pilgrims made private property allows society flourish , alternative brings starvation , poverty discontent paul schmidt advocates self government , davy crockett chapter president 706 judith drive , johnson city , tn , \( 615 \) 283 , uunet ! tijc02 ! pjs269 freedom seems unleashed creative energies people leads ever higher levels income social progress u n report
fpa1 trumpet cc msstate edu \( fletcher p adams \) subject abolish selective service nntp posting host trumpet cc msstate edu organization mississippi state university lines 35 kmitchel netcom com \( kenneth c mitchell \) writes dave borden \( borden head cfa harvard edu \) wrote selective service registration abolished start , draft immoral whether agree , n't one , military experts agree quality armed forces superior volunteer army draftees finally , government us many lists many computers \( irs , social security admistration motor vehicle registries name \) find us needs maintaining yet another list people utter waste money time let 's axe whole department , reduce deficit little bit i'm really surprised clinton n't already tried seems want tackle irrelevant issues first , one well let say , retired navy officer agree cut let 's stop eliminate c 17 transport wrong need capability sure problems , airplanes n't , getting rid something need answer want , start rebuild new airplane \? 'll problems well calls , scrapped option try extend life c 5s c getting extremely old scrap seawolf ssn 21 nuclear submarine ground b 2 stealth bomber 'll cost jobs , i'm especially n't need b 2 ssn 21 , know
ipser solomon technet sg \( ed ipser \) subject top ten ways slick willie could improve standing americans nntp posting host solomon technet sg lines 38 top ten ways slick willie could improve standing americans 10 institute national sales tax pay socialization america 's health care resources 9 declare war serbia draft 8 stimulate economy massive income transfers constituencies 7 appoint socialist like mario court 6 focus like laser beam gays military 5 put hillary charge ministry truth move stephanopoulos health care 4 balance budget taxation 3 remind everyone , , despite democrats holding presidency , majority seats house , senate , republicans still managed block tax spend programs 2 go back england get course european socialism 1 resign , ! copyright \( c \) edward ipser , jr , 1993 sure look slick willie 's first book top ten lists available soon paperback
kaldis romulus rutgers edu \( theodore kaldis \) subject role national news media inflaming passions organization rutgers univ , new brunswick , n j lines 53 article murdoch acc virginia edu gsh7w fermi clas virginia edu \( greg hennessy \) writes clayton cramer came , much lower profile reporting , victim prostitute , man paid hence false accusation evidence woman question prostitute , defense merely fact wearing underwear presented evidence prostitute , court apparently found compelling even clayton knows difference err , perhaps clayton n't know difference clayton indeed know difference greg apparently n't judge found credible evidence marines engaged self defense , judge found prosecution carry proof judge found credible evidence marines engaged self defense got , \? small clipping clarinews , fair use guidelines new hanover district court judge jacqueline morris ruled state failed carry burden proving marines acted cause injury , part repeat , judge found credible evidence marines engaged self defense hopefully , one days understand interesting 2 3 cases clayton accuses others respect credibility , would rate clayton cramer order magnitude higher \) news media , b \) homosexuals never thought clayton consistent clayton indeed consistent views expressed herein theodore kaldis seriously kaldis remus rutgers edu believe major university ! rutgers ! remus rutgers edu ! kaldis would hold views \? \? \?
steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) subject limiting govt \( employment \( concentrate \) summary promoting competition depend upon libertarians organization free barbers , inc lines 60 nntp posting host thor isc br com article 961 cbnewse cb att com doctor1 cbnewse cb att com \( patrick b \) writes article 1993apr15 170731 8797 isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) writes two paragraphs two different posts splicing together intention change steve 's meaning misrepresent way n't think 've done noted another thread \( limiting govt \) , problem libertarians face insuring limited government seek become tool private interests pursue agenda failure libertarianism ideology provide reasonable way restrain actions utopian dreams marxism fails specify pure communism achieved state wither away , libertarians frequently fail show weakening power state result improvement human condition patrick 's example anti competitive regulations auto dealers deleted 's see libertarianism offering seem utopian dream , basic human decency common sense real grass roots example freedom liberty yes , people acting masters , approving rejecting basic transactions , strike wonderful way improve human condition thanks awfully , patrick let try drag discussion back original issues 've noted , i'm necessarily disputing benefits eliminating anti competitive legislation regard auto dealers , barbers , etc one need , however , swallow entire libertarian agenda accomplish end one grants benefits allowing anyone wishes cut hair sell services without regulation mean unregulated barbers free bleed people medical service without government intervention \( many libertarians would argue \) case case basis , cost benefit ratio government regulation obviously worthwhile libertarian agenda , however , call assessment assumes costs regulation \( kind \) always outweigh benefits approach avoids sorts difficult analysis , strikes many rest us dogmatic , say least objection analysis medical care , education , national defense local police suggests free market provide effective , efficient means accomplishing social objectives provided statist approaches notable exceptions , however , see nitty gritty , worthwhile analysis carried self professed libertarians jsh steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing data , sure cut uucp ! uunet ! isc br ! thor ! steveh bulls r hofferbert bell 509 838 8826
cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) subject new study gay percentage organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 61 article c5k5lc cyf murdoch acc virginia edu , lfoard hopper virginia edu \( lawrence c foard \) writes article 15378 optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes santa rosa \( cal \) press democrat , april 15 , 1993 , p b2 male sex survey gay activity low new natonal study male sexual behavior , thorough examination american men 's sexual practices published since kinsey report four decades ago , shows 2 percent men surveyed engaged homosexual sex 1 percent considered exclusively homosexual figures homosexuality study released wednesday alan guttmacher institute significantly lower 10 percent figure part conventional wisdom since published kinsey report 1 \) \? homosexuals lie 10 number hide disproportionate involvement homosexuals child molestation also lie 10 keep politicians scared 2 \) interesting see reaction 2 5million queers gather washington dc 6million us event unprecidented history many people marching n't homosexuals , members leftist agenda article also contains numbers number sexual partners median number sexual partners men 20 39 7 3 n't forget 25 20 partners surprising remember , study includes homosexuals well compared table already posted masters , johnson , kolodny showing male homosexual partners , apparent homosexual men dramatically promiscuous general male population study show number sexual contacts said homosexual \? number n't published 's shame n't breakdown straight men vs gay bi men would show even dramatically much promiscuous gay bi men fuck typical response clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent ,
cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) subject new study gay percentage organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 19 article news cso uiuc edu , dans uxa cso uiuc edu \( dan \) writes n't forget culture sadly , n't \( society \) look upon homosexuality normal \( well aware , alot people condemn \) result , gay population encouraged develop non promiscuous relationships fact many roadblocks put way committed relationships heterosexual \? able get married n't permanent relationship lack marriage certificate n't force couple break excuse used homosexuals alternative ask much promiscuous straights dan clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent ,
cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) subject new study gay percentage organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 31 article 1993apr16 galileo cc rochester edu , as010b uhura cc rochester edu \( tree schnopia \) writes 15378 optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes article also contains numbers number sexual partners median number sexual partners men 20 39 7 3 compared table already posted masters , johnson , kolodny showing male homosexual partners , apparent homosexual men dramatically promiscuous general male population 's shame n't breakdown straight men vs gay bi men would show even dramatically much promiscuous gay bi men possibly gay bi men less likely get married \? marriage n't requirement couple staying together purpose post \? show mindless obsession statistics , incredibly flawed system reasoning , repellent hatemonger agenda , purpose accomplished panache \( \) get clue \( b \) get life \( c \) get face i'm bi andrew simchik schnopia ! yes rest homosexual community pass laws impose moral codes , requiring hire , rent , otherwise associate homosexual , yes , face homosexuals stop trying impose morals , face clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent ,
cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) subject role national news media inflaming passions organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 17 article murdoch acc virginia edu , gsh7w fermi clas virginia edu \( greg hennessy \) writes kaldis writes fact wearing underwear presented evidence prostitute , court apparently found compelling ah , know women wear without wearing underwear , prostitutes history working massage , telling co workers prostitutes \? frequent truck stop parking lots 4 00 , without id sort \? greg hennessy , university virginia clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent ,
cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) subject new study gay percentage organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 21 article 1993apr17 news cs brandeis edu , st923336 pip cc brandeis edu \( blort ! eeeep ! hwaaah \) writes actually , rather surprised see article subject \( e new , survey saying roughly 1 men gay \) front page new york times recently \( think thurs , 15 april \) headline something effect new survey finds 1 men gay shocked , new york times running story sex survey \( although part \) , thought news actually important enough warrant front page space mean , many people actually care many people gay \( long know find avoid want \) \? n't n't care , much effort put promoting 10 lie \? important scare politicians obedience matt clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent ,
pitt edu \( j \) subject clinton president 's trip pittsburg sic organization university pittsburgh lines 37 article life ai mit edu clinton hq campaign92 org \( clinton gore '92 \) writes statement press secretary president travel pittsburgh saturday , april 17 talk job creation plan impact state pennsylvania , would create many 3 , 818 would \? ha haa ha hell come number , specified units column , something complicated \? face , 's perceptions matter , folks , facts especially one full time jobs 21 , 240 summer jobs make according pittsburgh post gazette , means 7200 new jobs allegheny county \( metro pgh \) alone ! ha ha heh heh \? hope 's fixing potholes street let 's face , folks , 're depression clinton 's really coming beat sen arlen specter , happens africa \( n't know whether laugh cry \) j \( casey \) 1996 , two kinds slavic computer professional u pgh library systems know nextstep , pitt edu without jobs
cdm pmafire inel gov \( dale cook \) subject good neighbor political hypocrisy test organization winco lines 25 article 1993apr15 193603 14228 magnus acs ohio state edu rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu \( ryan c scharfy \) writes article stevethc5jgcr 1ht netcom com steveth netcom com \( steve thomas \) wri tes try justify war drugs , dare ! friend mine smoke pot every day last tuesday took 5 hits acid still trouble aiming bowl takes dump n't , seen results boy , really wish cut drug war people screwed head i'm sorry friend really anecdote nothing justify war drugs anything , demonstrates war miserable failure demonstrates people take drugs want , legal perhaps friend taking legal , regulated drugs doctors supervision might position 's dale cook town churches bars serious social problem edward abbey opinions mine \( e , employer 's \)
brian gab unt edu \( brian stone \) subject new study gay percentage lines 39 organization college arts sciences article also contains numbers number sexual partners median number sexual partners men 20 39 7 3 compared table already posted masters , johnson , kolodny showing male homosexual partners , apparent homosexual men dramatically promiscuous general male population 's shame n't breakdown straight men vs gay bi men would show even dramatically much promiscuous gay bi men n't funny someone seems know nothing homosexuality uses flawed \( imho \) source information pass homosexual bisexual men would seem logical say since heterosexual group men larger chances promiscuity larger well opinion , orientation nothing men men like sex gay male sex three times life , man , virgin whose promiscuous \? someone gay n't mean morals someone heterosexual n't mean look world statistics alone prove criminals default hetero look closely person , group flames ignored \) later , \( \) \( \) \( brian stone \) \( \) \( unt cas tech support \) \( life without touch hard , \) \( \) \( life without unthinkable \) \( brian gab unt edu \) \( \) \( \) \( \)
an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) subject candidate organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 12 reply an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu previous article , smith harvard edu \( steven smith \) says yet another tax floated clinton administration pay new social programs , 've really begun suspect canadians , long resentful place american shadow , brainwashed american draft dodger fled canada hey , talking mulroney lot , huh \?
blh uiboise idbsu edu \( broward l horne \) subject 17 month ! x received usenet pa dec com id fri , 16 apr 93 07 52 11 0700 x received inet gw 2 pa dec com id fri , 16 apr 93 07 51 10 0700 x received uiboise idbsu edu \( 16 6 16 2 \) id thu , 15 apr 93 10 11 24 0600 x talk politics misc usenet x cc alt politics clinton usenet x mailer elm revision 66 25 lines 58 ahhh , remember days yesterday \? going pay 17 month \? 1 2 population would pay extra taxes \? remember us predicted n't true \? \) remember inaugural \? dancing singing ! liberation last ! well , figure 5 vat , estimated raise 60 100 billion per year \( cnn \) work , chum 60 , 000 , 000 , 000 125 , 000 , 000 taxpayers 480 year , , 'll get free health care ! , , , wo n't ! poor 37 million none , chum \) comes later add estimates energy tax costs 300 500 year plus , extra corporate rich taxes trickle , \? 1 , 000 year , like said two months ago , best part \? n't get anything deficit still projected rise rate 's rising , estimates assumes plan work ! mean , come , n't take rocket scientist see another 2 3 years , 're getting another whopping tax increase , deficit still growing faster economy clinton , moving us higher diving board face clinton bush x 2 four years , country completely bankrupt , children 's future , oft mentioned pal bill , gone still deluding faced guilt well , glancing watch , gotta go want noon got appointment lake tax , yet \)
hagenjd wfu edu \( jeff hagen \) subject italy next domino fall \? organization wake forest university lines 51 nntp posting host ac wfunet wfu edu \( note cross posted alt politics italy talk politics misc reply article ed ipser also appeared alt politics usa misc alt politics libertarian , longer belongs \) hate defend ed \( article poorly written \) goes hallam dscomsa desy de \( phill hallam baker \) writes ed take look budget deficit regan bush created together starts make claims europe collapsing based budget deficits none serious usa scale italy 's per capita debt much higher usa 's want countries run narrow elite rich lawyers benefit super wealthy exactly public france italy perceive problem thus french election italian regarding post italy looks likely happen fringe parties going much better next election parliamentary deputies going get replaced parties going forced look people free hint corruption look parliament 's porn stars wrong true perhaps referendum sunday expected establish british american style first past post system senate implemented , would encourage two \( perhaps three \) party system italy likely dc psi parties rather entire party structure 2 new parties emerge dominate one \? knows \( camera dei \( lower house \) likely remain proportional representation , talk switching portion house , maybe much 40 first past post \) overall , reform italy welcome change italians tired crappy government porn stars , 's hunters wo n't gain seats pr dead good two party system bring italy efficient , accountable government 's time jeff hagen hagenjd ac wfu edu
an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) subject national sales tax , movie organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 38 reply an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu previous article , ckincy cs umr edu \( charles kincy \) says let great make couple predictions , 1 sun rise tomorrow 2 rush bash clinton next show 3 turn clinton 's love child hey , n't one dancing singing jan 20 , \? ridiculed predictions sure easy tell 43 people \) ! made usa hook , line , ! chuckle wait see clinton planned pension funds ! \) one n't take much thinking either uncle sam needs money , bad , pension funds got well , used turns states plundering state employee funds past 2 3 years \) ah , 's gonna swell !
organization students increased beverage access \( \) mark 'mark' sachs mbs110 psuvm psu edu subject top ten excuses slick willie 's record setting disapproval rati 93105 psuvm psu edu 9bj usenet ins cwru edu lines 49 article 9bj usenet ins cwru edu , an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) says previous article , mbs110 psuvm psu edu \( mark 'mark' sachs \) says article usenet ins cwru edu , an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) says sure appear way , n't \? attitude people stupid n't agree going bring great success life free advice , whew mark , earth makes think give fuck success , particularly 'll hell taxed \? oh , excellent hardly point , \? commenting common republican attitude people disagree us , must idiots , must sheep led around evil liberal media conspiracy dangerous attitude indeed 's big step people sheep , ca n't think people sheep need firm leadership , know better sort attitude makes worry 'll happen united states extremist wing republican party ever gets back power holy christ ! \) hey ! government funded newsgroup ! let 's separation church state , damn ! besides , let 's ahem examine record , shall \? broward clinton 's going holy fuck ! mark , 's 17 month \( still get laugh one ! \) \) like broward clinton 's going raise income taxes 1000 ! mark , 's , 204 broward \( silence \) want free predictions \? ok , predict 1996 republicans still bitter yeah , yeah , know , 's impressive predict things inevitable propose destroy moon , neatly solving problem blood pressure went mark sachs mbs110 psuvm psu edu disclaimer psu knew opinions , 'd try charge
joec hilbert cyprs rain com \( joe cipale \) subject clayton need retract organization cypress semi , beaverton lines 13 article apr 9 08 39 25 1993 romulus rutgers edu kaldis romulus rutgers edu \( theodore kaldis \) writes civilized society way homosexual maintain even modicum respectability remaining closet views expressed herein theodore kaldis seriously kaldis remus rutgers edu believe major university ! rutgers ! remus rutgers edu ! kaldis would hold views \? \? \? , appears one eyed man appeared land sighted strange appointed ruler supreme power joe cipale
paul hsh com \( paul havemann \) subject top ten excuses slick willie 's record setting disapproval rati organization hsh associates lines 26 article emoryu1 cc emory edu , libwca emory edu \( bill anderson \) writes shapiro sofbas enet dec com \( steve shapiro \) writes oh , btw , william jefferson clinton regards , steve , 's really fail understand use name insult feel adopted implies sort moral failing \? yes , could look spare us thin skinned indignation , please 's sauce four years using george herbert walker bush j danforth quayle insult sauce william jefferson clinton feel calling president full name implies sort disrespect \? hint rhetorical question paul havemann \( internet paul hsh com \) 're opinions 're caffeine brain ! \( 50 milligrams per cynical observation \) recommended minimum daily requirement 1 , 000 mg keep reading
dans uxa cso uiuc edu \( dan \) subject new study gay percentage organization university illinois urbana lines 51 brian gab unt edu \( brian stone \) writes article also contains numbers number sexual partners median number sexual partners men 20 39 7 3 compared table already posted masters , johnson , kolodny showing male homosexual partners , apparent homosexual men dramatically promiscuous general male population 's shame n't breakdown straight men vs gay bi men would show even dramatically much promiscuous gay bi men n't funny someone seems know nothing homosexuality uses flawed \( imho \) source information pass homosexual bisexual men would seem logical say since heterosexual group men larger chances promiscuity larger well opinion , orientation nothing n't understand getting chances promiscuity larger , yet rate promiscuity lower heterosexual community , n't imply homo bi sexual population even promiscuous raw statistics imply \? \( axe grind i'm scientist hate see statistics abused \) men men like sex gay male sex three times life , man , virgin hetero man sex one woman life \( wife \) pleasing able say hope feeling also wish could \( wanted \) experience joys trials committed someone life \( something marriage makes commitment much greater one might expect \) whose promiscuous \? someone gay n't mean morals someone heterosexual n't mean look world statistics alone prove criminals default hetero n't forget culture sadly , n't \( society \) look upon homosexuality normal \( well aware , alot people condemn \) result , gay population encouraged develop non promiscuous relationships fact many roadblocks put way committed relationships heterosexual community puts blocks perpetuate claim gays immoral , allowed gays marry , raise children might find 're moral , ca n't \? thoughts flame away \) dan
mwalker novell com \( mel walker \) subject top ten ways slick willie could improve standing americans nntp posting host mwalker provo novell com organization novell , inc lines 23 article newsserver technet sg , ipser solomon technet sg \( ed ipser \) wrote top ten ways slick willie could improve standing americans deleted good reason i'm sure guess 0 enact law bans people without sense humor posting allegedly humorous items , think approval rating would go roof ! copyright \( c \) edward ipser , jr , 1993 means ca n't quote ed without permission using lists sigs , folks ! mel walker mwalker novell com opinions expressed author novell , inc responsible content article
mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com \( mark wilson \) subject good neighbor political hypocrisy test organization ncr engineering manufacturing atlanta atlanta , ga lines 14 1993apr15 igor tamri com donb igor tamri com \( baldwin \) writes think n't drugs legalized , would lower cost definitely make safer use think n't use drugs , outside legal ones \( alcohol coffee \) i'm addicted chocolate mob rule n't prettier merely mob calls government ai n't charity using someone else 's money wilson 's theory relativity go back far enough , 're related mark wilson atlantaga ncr com
goykhman apollo hp com \( red herring \) subject clinton 's immunization program nntp posting host dzoo ch apollo hp com organization hewlett packard company , chelmsford , lines 48 article 1993apr15 1807 martha utcc utk edu pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) writes article c5jobh 7zt apollo hp com goykhman apollo hp com \( red herring \) writes article 1993apr14 122758 11467 magnus acs ohio state edu jlinder magnus acs ohio state edu \( jeffrey linder \) writes article c5fjsl 6is ncratl atlantaga ncr com mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr c om \( mark wilson \) writes news last night clinton bashing republicans stonewalling called stimulus package seems one small item within package going pay free immunizations poor kids immunizations children country already free care go done problem cost , irresponible parents stupid lazy done case n't noticed , clintonites pushing universal health care access program access means folks give damn immunizing children health care services delivered doorsteps 've read programs ran problems convincing parents get children immunized even delivered doorstep \( n't know , maybe sheet informed possible risks , side effects , bad reactions scares \) immunization program useful first step among things , money go pay creating computerized database u children \( code named big mother kidding , name children defense database , something like \) money spent little tangible results achieved , goverment start knocking doors , , bribe parents others \( probably ones paying kids attending school fantastic idea ! \) david veal univ tenn div cont education info services group pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu still remember way laughed , day pushed elevator shaft i'm beginning think n't love anymore weird al disclaimer opinions expressed mine , employer 's
cch coventry ac uk \( dr zippy \) subject sexual proposition sexual harassment \? nntp posting host cc sysh organization dr psycho surgery lines 13 article lynn lynn uio \( malcolm lynn \) writes spelling , eh \? dr zippy dr zippy , proof blonde n't women title uk ac coventry cck
goykhman apollo hp com \( red herring \) subject clinton 's immunization program nntp posting host dzoo ch apollo hp com organization hewlett packard company , chelmsford , lines 52 article utkvx utk edu utkvx utk edu \( , steve \) writes article c5jobh 7zt apollo hp com , goykhman apollo hp com \( red herring \) writes article 1993apr14 122758 11467 magnus acs ohio state edu jlinder magnus acs ohio state edu \( jeffrey linder \) writes article c5fjsl 6is ncratl atlantaga ncr com mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr c om \( mark wilson \) writes news last night clinton bashing republicans stonewalling called stimulus package seems one small item within package going pay free immunizations poor kids immunizations children country already free care go done problem cost , irresponible parents stupid lazy done n't know live , case perhaps state municipality put together funds , area areas know people , immunizations cost nationwide , immunization rate among 50 , reportedly low 10 inner city neighborhoods bet 10 kids living neighborhoods already covered , universal immunization program , kind clinton seems proposing , many years \( two decades \? \) immunization rate 65 35 \? guess parents indeed ignorant lazy , simply care sorry shatter stereotypes \? \? \? case n't noticed , clintonites pushing universal health care access program access means folks give damn immunizing children health care services delivered doorsteps disclaimer opinions expressed mine , employer 's disclaimer opinions expressed mine , employer 's
kane buast7 bu edu \( hot young star \) subject concentrate child molesters \? organization astronomy department , boston university , boston , , usa lines 24 article optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes article bu edu , kane buast7 bu edu \( hot young star \) writes going admit data presented show 3 child molesters gay , thus respect general incidence homosexuality \? someone show something besides article correct i'm wrong , n't irrelevant \? either data shows something , n't regardless studies show admit showed us n't prove gay men likely molesters brian kane buast7 , astro bu edu \( hot young star \) astronomy dept , boston university , boston , 02215 true personal salvation achieved absolute faith ones true self
muellerm vuse vanderbilt edu \( marc mueller \) subject abolish selective service nntp posting host organization vanderbilt university school engineering , nashville , tn , usa lines 61 article 1993apr16 ra msstate edu fpa1 trumpet cc msstate edu \( fletcher p adams \) writes kmitchel netcom com \( kenneth c mitchell \) writes dave borden \( borden head cfa harvard edu \) wrote selective service registration abolished start , draft immoral whether agree , n't one , military experts agree quality armed forces superior volunteer army draftees finally , government us many lists many computers \( irs , social security admistration motor vehicle registries name \) find us needs maintaining yet another list people utter waste money time let 's axe whole department , reduce deficit little bit i'm really surprised clinton n't already tried seems want tackle irrelevant issues first , one well considering clinton received draft notice got \( admits \) political feasibility abolishing something would inclined risk extra exposure let say , retired navy officer agree cut let 's stop eliminate c 17 transport wrong need capability sure problems , airplanes n't , getting rid something need answer want , start rebuild new airplane \? 'll problems well calls , scrapped option try extend life c 5s c getting extremely old read aviation week , c 5 line c 5s would delivered year earlier cost billion less program politically , though , c 17 popular pork scrap seawolf ssn 21 nuclear submarine ground b 2 stealth bomber 'll cost jobs , i'm especially n't need b 2 ssn 21 , know agreed congress took money nasa fund second seawolf still building los angeles class submarines lack asw foes contend navy considering reducing number attack subs 40 \( navy times \) would entail getting rid current los angeles class politically , general dynamics connecticut get seawolf subs whether need addition , bases need closed probably long beach naval station others navy talking three main bases coast required home port total fleet 320 ships question whether les aspin clinton able face pork happy congress marc mueller
shou quads uchicago edu \( roger colin shouse \) subject national sales tax , movie reply shou midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 16 speaking vat anyone see cnn 's report yesterday \( 4 15 \) \? quite \( pun intended \) ran percent tax added stage manufacturing , stack quarters added wholesale stage got final stage \( actual retail sale \) small stack quarters added large stack already said amount paid consumers words , completed ignored fact stage tax would course passed next buyer retail consumer paying full load journalists 're lap dogs roger shouse university chicago email shou midway uchicago edu
golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) subject national sales tax , movie organization university toronto chemistry department lines 38 article aa05233 inet gw 2 pa dec com blh uiboise idbsu edu \( broward l horne \) writes well , seems national sales tax gotten cnn news logo ! cool means 'll seeing often man , sure glad quit working \( taking seriously \) 1990 kept busting ass , watching time go , frustrated , 'd pretty damn mad wish e mail address total gumby saying clinton n't propose nst actually , jerry brown essentially clinton , demagogue persona , condemned brown crucial ny primary last year however n't republicans get act together , say support broad based vat would visible \( vat canada visible unlike invisible europe \) suggest rate sufficient income corporate capital gains tax rates rate sufficient give clintons enough revenue health care reform , force agreement democrats top income tax rate would frozen forseeable future could increased via national referendum make use clintons something worthwhile shift tax burden investment consumption , get health care reform , frozen low top marginal tax rate one fell gerald
dreitman oregon uoregon edu \( daniel r reitman , attorney \) subject state justice organization university oregon lines 38 distribution world nntp posting host oregon uoregon edu summary gm 's quest justice news software vax vms vnews 1 41 article 1993apr15 143320 8618 desire wright edu , demon desire wright edu \( boomer \) writes judge denied gm 's new trial motion , even though gm says two new witnesses said occupant truck dead impact , fire thoughts \? 's kind scary realize judges going start denying new trials even new evidence contradicts facts led previous ruling appear judge decided new witnesses believed \? n't jury \? members previous jury parading talk shows proclaiming obvious bias gm \? n't enough judge old verdict call new trial \? whatever happened jurors objective \? first , people aware brett 's \( last name listed \) posts bit listserv politics indicate hostile toward gm 's hiring policies moseley verdict came equal opportunity disagreement , guess \) guess , without seeing judge 's opinion , gm 's motion denied due grounds otherwise , party case could always keep one two semi credible witnesses reserve spring lose exactly way promote daniel reitman uniform commercial code protects innocent purchaser , shield , blindly naive , hopelessly gullible atlas auto rental corp v weisberg , 54 misc 2d 168 , 172 , 281 n 2d 400 , 405 \( n city ct 1967 \)
as010b uhura cc rochester edu \( tree schnopia \) subject new study gay percentage nntp posting host uhura cc rochester edu organization university rochester rochester , new york lines 26 15378 optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes article also contains numbers number sexual partners median number sexual partners men 20 39 7 3 compared table already posted masters , johnson , kolodny showing male homosexual partners , apparent homosexual men dramatically promiscuous general male population 's shame n't breakdown straight men vs gay bi men would show even dramatically much promiscuous gay bi men possibly gay bi men less likely get married \? purpose post \? show mindless obsession statistics , incredibly flawed system reasoning , repellent hatemonger agenda , purpose accomplished panache \( \) get clue \( b \) get life \( c \) get face i'm drewcifer bi andrew simchik schnopia ! as010b uhura cc rochester edu treewater words n't made cowards happy rhodes
rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu \( ryan c scharfy \) subject good neighbor political hypocrisy test nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 59 article 1993apr16 pmafire inel gov cdm pmafire inel gov \( dale cook \) writes article 1993apr15 193603 14228 magnus acs ohio state edu rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu \( ryan c scharfy \) writes article stevethc5jgcr 1ht netcom com steveth netcom com \( steve thomas \) w ri tes try justify war drugs , dare ! friend mine smoke pot every day last tuesday took 5 hits acid still trouble aiming bowl takes dump n't , seen results boy , really wish cut drug war people screwed head i'm sorry friend really anecdote nothing justify war drugs anything , demonstrates war miserable failure demonstrates people take drugs want , legal perhaps friend taking legal , regulated drugs doctors supervision might position 's agree , way war drugs failed , opinion , n't mean give change tactics instance , penalties changed dealing coke death dealing heroin death dealing pot death dealing crack death list goes ! ! ! kidding ! ! ! however , serious note , believe take money away foriegn operations south america costly border efforts \( n't think i'm going say , spend educate people , know plenty educated \) actually , spend things like drug treatment programs saw interesting story 60 minutes british actually prescribe addict recommended dosage , try , cut amount levels acceptable sounds good far heard decrease cost , lower addiction rates wiping dealer 's markets , etc \( thing heard \) however , legalizing sticking drugs gas stations bought like cigarettes plain silly plus , never heard recommended dosage drugs like crack , ecstasy , meth lsd 60 minute report said worked cocaine cigarettes , pot heroin ryan
vela acs oakland edu \( john \) subject top ten ways slick willie could improve standing americans organization oakland university , rochester mi lines 40 nntp posting host vela acs oakland edu article newsserver technet sg ipser solomon technet sg \( ed ipser \) writes top ten ways slick willie could improve standing americans 10 institute national sales tax pay socialization america 's health care resources 9 declare war serbia draft 8 stimulate economy massive income transfers constituencies 7 appoint socialist like mario court 6 focus like laser beam gays military 5 put hillary charge ministry truth move stephanopoulos health care 4 balance budget taxation 3 remind everyone , , despite democrats holding presidency , majority seats house , senate , republicans still managed block tax spend programs 2 go back england get course european socialism snip number one way slick willie could improve standing americans \( drum roll anton \) 1 get appointment dr keep ! john k vela acs oakland edu
cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) subject new study gay percentage organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 14 article 1993apr17 news cs brandeis edu , st923336 pip cc brandeis edu \( blort ! eeeep ! hwaaah \) writes would n't one expect heterosexual men gay men promiscuous simply due larger group potential partners \? thought matt might except gay men much promiscuous straight men shows damaged screwed gay men clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent ,
cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) subject new study gay percentage organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 15 article f3p murdoch acc virginia edu , gsh7w fermi clas virginia edu \( greg hennessy \) writes article philc5n6d5 mk3 netcom com phil netcom com \( phil ronzone \) writes tells something fascist politics practiced ah , ending discrimination fascism greg hennessy , university virginia force people associate others , yes clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent ,
cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) subject concentrate child molesters \? organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 28 article c5og5h 4de exnet co uk , sys1 exnet co uk \( xavier gallagher \) writes article optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes article maths cs dundee ac uk , maths cs dundee ac uk \( attitude \) writes absolutely nothing , seeing table heterosexuals , claim , supposedly higher amongst homosexual males makes insurance risk , need show heterosexual males less promiscuous homosexual males without data heterosexual males , cannot make comparison promiscuity rates heterosexuals homosexuals maths cs dundee ac uk \( world \) uk ac maths cs \( uk \) well , obvious point make would straight men fuck like rabbits oppertunity presented \? reckon man would go wildly promiscuous presented huge variety willing partners question , suppose , says lot screwed clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! xavier clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent ,
cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) subject using california 's antidiscrimination sort case predicted organization optilink corporation , petaluma , ca lines 30 article exnet co uk , sys1 exnet co uk \( xavier gallagher \) writes article optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes article armory com , rstevew armory com \( richard steven walz \) writes face , clayton , found guilty , gays sometimes make 16 year old boys 16 year old gays , know recall , case state rested testimony one victim declined testify , even threat teens since 40 , lot people face clayton , 're jerk ! rsw richard steven walz rstevew deeptht armory com \( 408 \) 429 1200 515 maple street 1 without safe free abortion women santa cruz , ca 95060 organ surrogates unwanted parasites always amazed see people admit breaking law putting address signature please tell us 13 \? 14 \? would like make statement district attorney \? sex 13 year old boy , great , everything , well , hell lot fun anyway oh , turn purple rage 12 time clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! walz monster , however , past 40 molested kids , says clayton e cramer uunet , pyramid ! optilink ! cramer opinions , mine ! relations people mutual consent ,
jrbeach iastate edu \( jeffry r beach \) subject good neighbor political hypocrisy test organization iowa state university , ames , ia lines 56 article 1993apr15 gordian com mike gordian com \( michael thomas \) writes article l95 news iastate edu , jrbeach iastate edu \( jeffry r beach \) writes article 1993apr15 021021 7538 gordian com mike gordian com \( michael thomas \) writes article c5huh1 241 news iastate edu , jrbeach iastate edu \( jeffry r beach \) writes really n't want waste time battle legalization drugs really want , get prove idiotic idea ! read know fuck i'm talking , eager make fool oh , foolish person know fuck i'm talking gladly demonstrate wish legalization drugs provide benefits highly taunted proponents safer , cheaper drugs along revenues taxes drugs reduced crime reduced organized crime specifically etc , etc would like prove clueless , get lot wasted posts n't think group intended something easily solved little research pragmatic standpoint , certainly justification vice people commit anyway shall alcohol \? legalization alcohol done making look bad damn easy vast social historical differences alcohol drugs make comparison worthless vice statutes serve make expensive rich dangerous poor , tim eloquently put people , however , shall government \( people \) decides vices detrimental society whole , pray tell , aids victim quotes \? revisionist sort thinks thing aids \? deserve \? overwhelmingly vast majority \( get point \) aids cases contracted thru behavioral choices said
demon desire wright edu \( boomer \) subject state justice organization acme products lines 46 article shelley u washington edu , tzs stein2 u washington edu \( tim smith \) writes demon desire wright edu \( boomer \) writes judge denied gm 's new trial motion , even though gm says two new witnesses said occupant truck dead impact , fire thoughts \? witness tell someone burning truck dead rather unconscious \? testimony would contradiction plaintiff 's charge \( witness \) occupant moved impact , indicating alive trying get \( provoking sorts sympathetic , burned reactions \) 's kind scary realize judges going start denying new trials even new evidence contradicts facts led previous ruling appear judge decided new witnesses believed \? n't jury \? kind witnesses \? talking witnesses accident , otherwise directly involved \( e g , , emergency room doctors , etc \) , used first trial n't get new trial screwed forgot call witnesses two witnesses n't come forth first trial would tough luck gm new witnesses beforehand , imo constitutes new evidence talking new expert witnesses offer new interpretations data , note loser always find witnesses grounds new trial , loser could always get new trial , keep loser becomes winner \( side would come new expert witnesses \) , support rulings deny new trials grounds brett 's nothing passionate vested interest disguised intellectual conviction sean o'casey white plague frank herbert
fpa1 ra msstate edu \( fletcher p adams \) subject pork \( c 17 c 5 \( abolish selective service \) mississippi state university nntp posting host ra msstate edu organization mississippi state university lines 30 muellerm vuse vanderbilt edu \( marc mueller \) writes fpa1 trumpet cc msstate edu \( fletcher p adams \) writes eliminate c 17 transport wrong need capability sure problems , read aviation week , c 5 line c 5s would delivered year earlier cost billion less program politically , though , c 17 popular pork read av week n't remember could supply date magazine \? c 17 vs c 5 , c 17 ca n't carry much capability \( read land smaller \) c 5 c 17 pork \? depends whether job relies \) california right , would say pork since due peace dividend many people work question whether les aspin clinton able face pork happy congress marc mueller huh \? n't read question whether social pork happy les aspin clinton able face jobs pork happy congress
blh uiboise idbsu edu \( broward l horne \) subject clinton 's wiretapping initiative x received usenet pa dec com id fri , 16 apr 93 11 05 06 0700 x received inet gw 2 pa dec com id aa23713 fri , 16 apr 93 11 03 42 0700 x received uiboise idbsu edu \( 16 6 16 2 \) id thu , 15 apr 93 13 23 52 0600 x talk politics misc usenet x cc alt politics clinton usenet x mailer elm revision 66 25 lines 19 look newsgroup , able find clinton 's proposed wiretapping initiative computer networks telephone systems 'initiative congress least past 6 months , guise fbi wiretapping bill strongly urge begin considering future strongly urge get application passport mail soon strongly urge consider moving savings overseas , protected bank accounts , still able
thf2 kimbark uchicago edu \( ted frank \) subject state justice reply thf2 midway uchicago edu organization university chicago lines 26 article 1993apr16 desire wright edu demon desire wright edu \( boomer \) writes article shelley u washington edu , tzs stein2 u washington edu \( tim smith \) writes kind witnesses \? talking witnesses accident , otherwise directly involved \( e g , , emergency room doctors , etc \) , used first trial n't get new trial screwed forgot call witnesses two witnesses n't come forth first trial would tough luck gm new witnesses beforehand , imo constitutes new evidence test n't whether gm knew otherwise would reward gm stupidity test whether gm reasonably known existence works ways gm trial , plaintiff turned two witnesses came forward first trial located beforehand , bad , sad new trial like tim said , n't get new civil trial screwed first time around unlike criminal justice system , much important civil justice system ted frank thf2 kimbark uchicago edu i'm sorry , card says moops u c law school standard disclaimers
borden head cfa harvard edu \( dave borden \) subject good neighbor political hypocrisy test organization smithsonian astrophysical observatory , cambridge , , usa lines 39 article netcom com , steveth netcom com \( steve thomas \) writes article 1993apr15 193603 14228 magnus acs ohio state edu rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu \( ryan c scharfy \) writes article stevethc5jgcr 1ht netcom com steveth netcom com \( steve thomas \) wri tes try justify war drugs , dare ! friend mine smoke pot every day last tuesday took 5 hits acid still trouble aiming bowl takes dump n't , seen results boy , really wish cut drug war people screwed head 'll answer 're sarcasm sarcasm boy , looks like wod working really good stop people screwed head , given example ! \( issue friend got drugs legal legal , 'll continue get issue 2 , somebody use illegal drugs screwed pay idiot 's problems \? 's anybody harm except wod , hand , immediate threat life tell sacrafice ! \) , drugs legal could pharmacists instead pushers selling , pharmacists could obligated inform purchasers dangers drug use , also show use drugs relatively safe ways dangers impurities \( responsible much suffering drugs cause \) would eliminated dave borden borden m5 harvard edu
mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com \( mark wilson \) subject nc vs hunt \( marine gay bashing wilmington nc \) verdict organization ncr engineering manufacturing atlanta atlanta , ga lines 19 tfarrell lynx dac northeastern edu \( thomas farrell \) writes feel defendents convicted regardless evidence would truely sad day civil rights n't know everybody else , , convicted evidence , mind quite sufficient evidence aware reported media , evidence presented trial sounds lot like first rodney king 5 trial bunch people saw 10 15 seconds several minute long video , decided knew people sat two week trial mob rule n't prettier merely mob calls government ai n't charity using someone else 's money wilson 's theory relativity go back far enough , 're related mark wilson atlantaga ncr com
rcollins ns encore com \( roger collins \) subject limiting govt \( employment \( concentrate \) reply rcollins encore com organization encore computer corporation nntp posting host sysgem1 encore com lines 62 steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) writes let try drag discussion back original issues 've noted , i'm necessarily disputing benefits eliminating anti competitive legislation regard auto dealers , barbers , etc one need , however , swallow entire libertarian agenda accomplish end one grants benefits allowing anyone wishes cut hair sell services without regulation mean unregulated barbers free bleed people medical service without government intervention \( many libertarians would argue \) case case basis , cost benefit ratio government regulation obviously worthwhile libertarian agenda , however , call assessment assumes costs regulation \( kind \) always outweigh benefits approach avoids sorts difficult analysis , strikes many rest us dogmatic , say least objection analysis medical care , education , national defense local police suggests free market provide effective , efficient means accomplishing social objectives provided statist approaches notable exceptions , however , see nitty gritty , worthwhile analysis carried self professed libertarians excellently put ! even libertarian , admit government things like beautiful performing arts complex ft lauderdale partially built tax dollars \( n't know much private much stolen , mean public \) beautiful enjoy \( keep mind , though , people city never attend single performance , might feel differently help pay \) however , disagree desireable efficient give government intervention power case case basis fact , lot better luck maintaining freedom speech precisely decided case case basis much issues judges decide whether political speech allowed sidewalk front post office try decide whether pro nazi , pro choice , pro life , pro tax political speech allowed sidewalk front post office imagine result right free speech decided majority case case basis economic issues government tell taxi drivers exactly charge , bus lines lawyers desireable decide rights free speech case case basis , decide rights free enterprise case case basis hope government restricted free enterprise hope , opinion , government interferes free enterprise efficient manner call political market failure thus , value freedom abundance produces , swallow whole libertarian agenda roger collins
donb igor tamri com \( baldwin \) subject good neighbor political hypocrisy test organization toshiba america mri , south san francisco , ca lines 17 article dak988s vma smsu edu ext dak988s vma smsu edu writes think bad good ol' southwest missouri state u , 2 parties running student body president 's token fraternity faces , 's president vice president handing condoms listing qualifications , listen really well makes sick party established many things ruining country like think 'll run next year \( well , student body president ca n't exactly campaign stand 's tough crime job listen people want fund things make sense condoms marijuana n't exactly worst things available either
donb igor tamri com \( baldwin \) subject good neighbor political hypocrisy test organization toshiba america mri , south san francisco , ca lines 21 article 1993apr15 193603 14228 magnus acs ohio state edu rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu \( ryan c scharfy \) writes try justify war drugs , dare ! friend mine smoke pot every day last tuesday took 5 hits acid still trouble aiming bowl takes dump n't , seen results gee , war drugs going years 're still getting drugs ! imagine friends like grass \( agree 's pretty harmless \) unable get , yet know number places someone stupid enough could get crack cocaine within half hour leaving office war drugs completely unsuccessful , yet 's lead really horrible abuses peoples' constitutional rights n't see thinking person could justify
gsh7w fermi clas virginia edu \( greg hennessy \) subject role national news media inflaming passions organization university virginia lines 21 kaldis writes fact wearing underwear presented evidence prostitute , court apparently found compelling ah , know women wear without wearing underwear , prostitutes judge found credible evidence marines engaged self defense got , \? gee , clayton kaldis engaging ad hominem arguments presented evidence said judge ruled provide evidence repeating false claim evidence greg hennessy , university virginia usps mail astronomy department , charlottesville , va 22903 2475 usa internet gsh7w virginia edu uucp ! uunet ! virginia ! gsh7w
veal utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) subject national sales tax , movie lines 27 organization university tennessee division continuing education article 1993apr16 midway uchicago edu shou quads uchicago edu \( roger colin shouse \) writes speaking vat anyone see cnn 's report yesterday \( 4 15 \) \? quite \( pun intended \) ran percent tax added stage manufacturing , stack quarters added wholesale stage got final stage \( actual retail sale \) small stack quarters added large stack already said amount paid consumers words , completed ignored fact stage tax would course passed next buyer retail consumer paying full load journalists 're lap dogs one commentators one big three news programs described vat \( ai n't sales tax \) tax government 's love even surprised got reason right effectively hides majority tax consumer pay consumer 's kind like cars pay far automobile taxes people realize 's contained two dozen different taxes , everything license tires gasoline david veal univ tenn div cont education info services group pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu still remember way laughed , day pushed elevator shaft i'm beginning think n't love anymore weird al
rja mahogany126 cray com \( russ anderson \) subject new study gay percentage originator rja mahogany126 lines 33 nntp posting host mahogany126 organization 1991 world champion minnesota twins ! article 15378 optilink com , cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes santa rosa \( cal \) press democrat , april 15 , 1993 , p b2 male sex survey gay activity low new natonal study male sexual behavior , thorough examination american men 's sexual practices published since kinsey report four decades ago , shows 2 percent men surveyed engaged homosexual sex 1 percent considered exclusively homosexual actually , study shows 2 percent men surveyed said engaged homosexual sex 1 percent said considered exclusively homosexual point people say acutally may different interesting clip newspaper mention difference maybe conservative media bias \) figures homosexuality study released wednesday alan guttmacher institute significantly lower 10 percent figure part conventional wisdom since published kinsey report russ anderson disclaimer statements reflect upon employer anyone else \( c \) 1993 ex twins' jack morris , 10 innings pitched , 0 runs \( world series mvp ! \)
demon desire wright edu \( boomer \) subject capital gains tax increase loses money distribution na organization acme products lines 70 article panix com , eck panix com \( mark eckenwiler \) writes 1993apr15 midway uchicago edu , thf2 midway uchicago edu sez article 1993apr14 desire wright edu demon desire wright edu \( boomer \) writes , i'm saying long term investor \( ones likely large capital gains \) would foolish sell order avoid tax hike \) might disappear given year b \) overcome year two gains response \? people pay capital gains taxes long term investors enough n't huge blip whenever capital gains taxes get raised never said everyone would find advantageous said enough would result readily noticeable distort trends even brett 's eventual return figures correct clearly n't 'd still wrong cause '86 blip fails consider 2 basic factors misunderstand i'm trying prove cause anything merely pointing ted 's assertion blip revenues caused selling avoid tax ca n't proven 1 \) ted notes , everyone long term investor one might find oneself , late 1986 , anticipating expenses near term require selling holdings given choice waiting weeks \( taking extra tax hit \) selling december tax treatment , fool would choose former disputed 2 \) fact brett construct post hoc calculations would beneficial investors many respects beside point plenty money style advice given unsophisticated investors late 1986 sell save taxes case anyone missed , shortage similar advice late last year \( nytimes , e g \) , even though advice based conclusion enacted law \( 1986 \) , merely assumption clinton would raise tax rates \( without capping cg taxes , contrary current proposal \) works situation believe market going , n't sell believe 's , sell 'd selling anyways , would n't \? evidence large number people suddenly decided higher taxes meant sell year \? n't ted 's saying increase previous year proof proposition , i'm saying ca n't know trend increasing capital gains revenues would n't account lot increase 1986 height housing boom , remember people trading like mad 's nice think investors always behave optimal economic interest like assuming , though , sort thinking often fails describe accurately happens real world indeed brett 's nothing passionate vested interest disguised intellectual conviction sean o'casey white plague frank herbert
demon desire wright edu \( boomer \) subject clinton reduces jobs bill organization acme products lines 11 clinton backed 16 billion jobs bill word 's core benefits , money creating full time jobs \( ie , summer jobs money \) chalk one holding line spending brett 's nothing passionate vested interest disguised intellectual conviction sean o'casey white plague frank herbert
sedd trw com \( marc \) subject 17 month ! nntp posting host sedd trw com organization trw sedd lines 25 alan brock 4 14 93 orange county register editorial titled case repealing income tax got attention quotes tax income , flexible definition concept , invites government snoop every lives encouraging people snoop one another report transgressions almighty state , americans nazi communist regimes although americans paid income tax 50 years ago withholding began world war ii , temporary , 1948 median family federal income tax 9 last year federal government got 37 percent income income taxes long ago federal government somehow managed along 63 percent 1992 revenue \? would believe five \? income tax converted free people society fearful
veal utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) subject national sales tax , movie lines 66 organization university tennessee division continuing education article 1993apr16 alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) writes article aa05233 inet gw 2 pa dec com blh uiboise idbsu edu \( broward l horne \) writes well , seems national sales tax gotten cnn news logo ! cool means 'll seeing often man , sure glad quit working \( taking seriously \) 1990 kept busting ass , watching time go , frustrated , 'd pretty damn mad wish e mail address total gumby saying clinton n't propose nst actually , jerry brown essentially clinton , demagogue persona , condemned brown crucial ny primary last year however n't republicans get act together , say support broad based vat would visible \( vat canada visible unlike invisible europe \) suggest rate sufficient income corporate capital gains tax rates rate sufficient give clintons enough revenue health care reform , republicans , general , fighting tax increase also worry vat would far easy increase incrementally \( btw , different canada 's tax europe 's makes visible \? \) force agreement democrats top income tax rate would frozen forseeable future could increased via national referendum would require constitutional amendment , congress enjoys raising taxes much restrict like \( besides , 2 3 majority necessary pull 'd difficult time forcing anything like \) make use clintons something worthwhile shift tax burden investment consumption , get health care reform , frozen low top marginal tax rate one fell primarily 's practical impossibility freeze tax rates however , something bothers 're always talking consumer confidence consumer spending gauges economy really important , would n't shifting taxes consumption provide spend money \? david veal univ tenn div cont education info services group pa146008 utkvm1 utk edu still remember way laughed , day pushed elevator shaft i'm beginning think n't love anymore weird al
mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com \( mark wilson \) subject jobs pork bill \? organization ncr engineering manufacturing atlanta atlanta , ga distribution usa lines 26 wed wsj start white house , seeking mount public pressure gop senators , bombarded news outlets senator 's home states news releases warning certain projects may funded stimulus bill n't passed none projects mentioned actually bill , rather part wish list may funded 2 56 billion community development block grants end could sworn heard bunch clintonites going , raving dishonest taking items wish list order ridicule bill clinton using list order garner support bill , guys going thing say clinton dishonest mob rule n't prettier merely mob calls government ai n't charity using someone else 's money wilson 's theory relativity go back far enough , 're related mark wilson atlantaga ncr com
dunnjj ucsu colorado edu \( dunn jonathan james \) subject abolish selective service organization university colorado , boulder lines 42 muellerm vuse vanderbilt edu \( marc mueller \) writes considering clinton received draft notice got \( admits \) political feasibility abolishing something would inclined risk extra exposure libertarian \( small l \) voted clinton , think abolish selective service draft conscience forbade go war vietnam , forbid perpetuate system government sanctioned slavery agreed congress took money nasa fund second seawolf still building los angeles class submarines lack asw foes contend navy considering reducing number attack subs 40 \( navy times \) would entail getting rid current los angeles class politically , general dynamics connecticut get seawolf subs whether need government would pay attention serious domestic issues \( economy \) choose stay people 's wars \( iraq , bosnia , somalia \) , would fix anyway , could n't jobs replaced improving domestic situation \? \( i'm continued deficit spending , clinton congress want spend , 'd rather improve infrastructure fight people 's wars \) addition , bases need closed probably long beach naval station others navy talking three main bases coast required home port total fleet 320 ships question whether les aspin clinton able face pork happy congress novel idea getting away naval bases , air force bases airports \? would much cheaper building ground \( denver 's new airport one appalling examples pork seen lifetime \) even airports needed , i'm sure bill gates ross perot would love private , money purchases could applied public debt jon dunn e mail flames deleted without reading
muellerm vuse vanderbilt edu \( marc mueller \) subject pork \( c 17 c 5 \( abolish selective service \) nntp posting host organization vanderbilt university school engineering , nashville , tn , usa lines 48 article 1993apr16 ra msstate edu fpa1 ra msstate edu \( fletcher p adams \) writes muellerm vuse vanderbilt edu \( marc mueller \) writes fpa1 trumpet cc msstate edu \( fletcher p adams \) writes eliminate c 17 transport wrong need capability sure problems , read aviation week , c 5 line c 5s would delivered year earlier cost billion less program politically , though , c 17 popular pork read av week n't remember could supply date magazine \? aviation week march 15 1993 p 48 cbo estimates matching capability 100 c 17s would require 70 c 5s total cost 14 4 billion option still 10 billion cheaper completing c 17 program , cbo estimates cost 24 7 billion sorry , nine billion c 5s would ten billion cheaper c 17 vs c 5 , c 17 ca n't carry much capability \( read land smaller \) c 5 c 17 pork \? depends whether job relies \) california right , would say pork since due peace dividend many people work well , california voted overwhelmingly change , right \? argument continue military programs support jobs poor one 's kept quite bases open closed years ago , wasting billions taxes question whether les aspin clinton able face pork happy congress marc mueller huh \? n't read question whether social pork happy les aspin clinton able face jobs pork happy congress marc mueller
jrbeach iastate edu \( jeffry r beach \) subject good neighbor political hypocrisy test organization iowa state university , ames , ia lines 25 article netcom com steveth netcom com \( steve thomas \) writes boy , looks like wod working really good stop people screwed head , given example ! \( issue friend got drugs legal legal , 'll continue get issue 2 , somebody use illegal drugs screwed pay idiot 's problems \? 's anybody harm except wod , hand , immediate threat life tell sacrafice ! \) hello , anybody \? think pay idiot 's problem , 's going pay number addicts associated problems n't even want think hillary white house administration feels pain harm \? drives school bus full kids train gets stoned drives sidewalk kills 5 people lives welfare rest life problem wod bite sending slimy bastards chair selling drugs kids , 's bit
gadfly cbnewsi cb att com \( gadfly \) subject california insurance commissioner endorses federal legislation protect consumers scam insurance companies organization distribution usa summary whatever say lines 96 article optilink com , cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes mean , since philosophy took , economy almost collapsed excuse , philosophy \? n't idea philosophy american economy ups downs number prevailing economic philosophies , economics hardly science lifetime , philosophy socialism liberal welfare state yo earth clayton philosophy \? never discussed know 's minor point , , gee , dude , idea economic political principles adhere n't let stop 're roll ascribe whatever want know 'll choose wisely , believe personal responsibility , mean exactly wrote welfare system new deal wholly inadequate cope current state affairs absolutely response socialists take us even socialism duh else would expect socialist \? flash pan \? , subculture utterly dominated tv movie industries two decades subculture \? , 're getting personal subculture see dominating tv movie industries money 'll buy , 'll sell recent movements boycott tv advertisers shown , 're sensitive sells whatever happened personal responsibility , anyway \? personally responsible decline , \? extent people encouraged responsible , yes \( \) encouraged people responsible \? specific make random dates heinous acts see fit \( b \) encouraged many people many things way make audiences less responsible actions \? finite amount responsibility , \( cf conservation energy \) become responsible occurrence encouraging actual perpetrator becomes less \? point perpetrator become completely innocent altogether \? know , lends whole new meaning term moral high ground oddly enough , people know manage find employment almost immediately maybe needs move cheaper part country , jobs plentiful , cost living lower west side chicago cheap gets squalor city tell places 's cheap live jobs abundant 'll pass sonoma county pass info curiosity , kind jobs would \? 's demographic mix wrt race , age , culture \? lots employment , utterly surrounded socialists well , suppose 's sort environment would attract socialists , least dissuade , 's areas lot wealthy breed socialists spoiled rich kids , feeling guilty wealth guilty enough give away look politicians take limited wealth away life 's bitch , ai n't \? man , 've got get considered someplace perhaps distant politically friendly , like , say , indiana \? maybe utah \? well , doubt much goes drugs n't much left buying food , little first place sure , read cases , 's makes news show statistics afdc abuse tell relatives known , drugs came first , food secondary n't doubt , unless show statistics contrary persist apparently dogmatic socialist belief \( hey , say \) afdc money really better worse long term feed ken 16 apr 93 27 cci gadfly att com l'audace ! de l'audace ! encore de l'audace !
asper calvin uucp \( alan e asper \) subject top ten ways slick willie could improve standing americans organization usr lib news organization lines 13 nntp posting host calvin sbc com article mwalker mwalker provo novell com mwalker novell com \( mel walker \) writes copyright \( c \) edward ipser , jr , 1993 means ca n't quote ed without permission using lists sigs , folks ! oh , darn okay , okay , let 's stop slamming ipser , get making fun people alan
rolandi hssc scarolina edu \( walter rolandi \) subject italy next domino fall \? organization usc department computer science lines 13 hagenjd wfu edu \( jeff hagen \) writes good two party system bring italy efficient , accountable government yeah , like us walter g rolandi usenet rolandi andy hssc scarolina edu internet rolandi hssc scarolina edu
dartmouth edu \( \) subject 're winning war drugs ! keywords drugs dea wod legalization organization dartmouth college , hanover , nh lines 42 kennejs cs okstate edu \( kennedy james scot \) writes chart follows taken wednesday , april 14 , 1993 issue usa today \( drug use among u eigth graders mike snider , p 6d \) choices drugs used eighth graders last month estimated , per 100 students 1991 1992 pct alcohol 25 1 26 1 4 cigarettes 14 3 15 5 8 marijuana 3 2 3 7 16 2 6 3 3 27 lsd 0 6 0 9 50 cocaine 0 5 0 7 40 crack 0 3 0 5 67 source university michigan institute social research , 1993 report winning war drugs think see one tactics dea employs give people impression war drugs selectively quote statistics statistics support contention drug use gone excerpt time magazine included post excellent example organizations like dea attempt deceive public unfortunately , 's much learn statistics presented either due rounding , 1991 est lsd could anywhere 550 649 1992 est could anywhere 850 949 means actual change \( believe statistics first place \) anywhere 31 73 similarly increase cocaine use could anywhere 18 66 increase crack use could anywhere 29 120 n't even take account margin error n't provided mean rest argument present unfounded , mean usa today \( surprisingly \) provided us virtually information
gsh7w fermi clas virginia edu \( greg hennessy \) subject new study gay percentage organization university virginia lines 18 clayton cramer writes compared table already posted masters , johnson , kolodny showing male homosexual partners , apparent homosexual men dramatically promiscuous general male population ever consider selection effect willing admit member sexual minority \( homosexuality \) willing admit member another sexual minority \( highly promiscious \) \? n't think greg hennessy , university virginia usps mail astronomy department , charlottesville , va 22903 2475 usa internet gsh7w virginia edu uucp ! uunet ! virginia ! gsh7w
helfman aero org \( robert helfman \) subject clinton 's wiretapping initiative organization aerospace corporation , el segundo , ca lines 22 nntp posting host aerospace aero org article 9304161803 aa23713 inet gw 2 pa dec com blh uiboise idbsu edu \( broward l horne \) writes look newsgroup , able find clinton 's proposed wiretapping initiative computer networks telephone systems 'initiative congress least past 6 months , guise fbi wiretapping bill kind brainless posted garbage \? would kind explain clinton 's initiative , congress least past 6 months \? jeez , next thing know , 'll blaming weather poor guy 'll blaming world war ii 'll blaming civil war maybe thirty years war \?
mikeq freddy cna tek com \( mike quigley \) subject bill targets pension funds liberation organization tektronix , inc , redmond , lines 6 excerpts insight magazine , march 15 , 1993 paranoia part deleted n't insight magazine published \?
ucssun1 sdsu edu \( riyadh al \) subject many homosexuals \? organization san diego state university computing services lines 16 distribution usa nntp posting host ucssun1 sdsu edu kaldis romulus rutgers edu \( theodore kaldis \) writes perhaps 1 , likely 2 new study \( discrediting kinsey \) says views expressed herein theodore kaldis seriously kaldis remus rutgers edu believe major university ! rutgers ! remus rutgers edu ! kaldis would hold views \? \? \? understanding classes percentage like 10 12 world wide would really like know source 1 2 figure riyadh sdsu chemistry ucssun1 sdsu edu
rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu \( ryan c scharfy \) subject tories could win lottery clinton gst \? nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 44 article 1993apr16 umr edu ckincy cs umr edu \( charles kincy \) w rites article 1993apr16 magnus acs ohio state edu rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu \( ryan c scharfy \) writes country hardly ruined fact , booming compared 1980 election whole usa gone hell reagan bush caused , lame , pathetic , old 's wrong reagan bush economy grew 1 1 trillion dollars tha n entire economy germany , kind , gentle country , many peoples' books joke drive cincinnati take look pretty , \? drive cleveland 10 , 000 times better toledo originally \( place always sucked long 've planet things much better 1980 growth went hands ron 's pals , get single dime , dammit , , i'm gonna bled death tax pay damage f ing great republicans trying pass balanced budget amendment last ten years oh , 's another thing seems like lot people columbus drive make japanese cars hm , american companies n't even compete country , free trade n't even issue however , even automobile swung back big 3 wonder many american owned companies employ central ohio \? ohio state university \) oh , n't know 's probably tens thousands ryan
demon desire wright edu \( boomer \) subject clinton reduces jobs bill summary good true , evidently organization acme products lines 18 article 1993apr16 desire wright edu , demon desire wright edu \( boomer \) writes clinton backed 16 billion jobs bill word 's core benefits , money creating full time jobs \( ie , summer jobs money \) chalk one holding line spending seems radio reports overly optimistic clinton wants cut 2 5 billion community block grants , keeping summer jobs hmmm , well , looks like need keep pressure congresspersons brett 's nothing passionate vested interest disguised intellectual conviction sean o'casey white plague frank herbert
rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu \( ryan c scharfy \) subject new study gay percentage nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 75 article c5k5lc cyf murdoch acc virginia edu lfoard hopper virginia edu \( la c foard \) writes article 15378 optilink com cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes santa rosa \( cal \) press democrat , april 15 , 1993 , p b2 male sex survey gay activity low new natonal study male sexual behavior , thorough examination american men 's sexual practices published since kinsey report four decades ago , shows 2 percent men surveyed engaged homosexual sex 1 percent considered exclusively homosexual figures homosexuality study released wednesday alan guttmacher institute significantly lower 10 percent figure part conventional wisdom since published kinsey report 1 \) \? less gays , gays claim 2 \) interesting see reaction 2 5million queers gather washington dc 6million us event unprecidented history dream abortion african american civil rights rallies n't even bring half article also contains numbers number sexual partners median number sexual partners men 20 39 7 3 n't forget 25 20 partners wondering n't getting laid compared table already posted masters , johnson , kolodny showing male homosexual partners , apparent homosexual men dramatically promiscuous general male population study show number sexual contacts said homosexual \? number 's , cares \? 's shame n't breakdown straight men vs gay bi men would show even dramatically much promiscuous gay bi men fuck actually , bet gay bi men promiscuous gay men , could option living straight life , social pressures , probably would least try join pythagorean reform church ! repent evil irrational numbers bean eating ways accept 10 heart ! call pythagorean reform church bbs 508 793 9568 know fact homosexuality comparatively high hitler 's storm troopers \( sa \) came power wonder got put triangles ryan
rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu \( ryan c scharfy \) subject new study gay percentage nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 46 article also contains numbers number sexual partners median number sexual partners men 20 39 7 3 compared table already posted masters , johnson , kolodny showing male homosexual partners , apparent homosexual men dramatically promiscuous general male population 's shame n't breakdown straight men vs gay bi men would show even dramatically much promiscuous gay bi men n't funny someone seems know nothing homosexuality uses flawed \( imho \) source information pass homosexual bisexual men comprehensive survey sexuality 50 years would seem logical say since heterosexual group men larger chances promiscuity larger well opinion , orientation nothing chance size nothing common number scale talking men men like sex gay male sex three times life , man , virgin whose promiscuous \? nobody said chill someone gay n't mean morals someone heterosexual n't mean look world well said statistics alone prove criminals default hetero actually , report 1947 \( 48 \? \) used high percentage prisoners ryan
steveh thor isc br com \( steve hendricks \) subject jobs pork bill \? summary answer local communities decide block grants distribution usa organization boomer , inc lines 73 nntp posting host thor isc br com article ncratl atlantaga ncr com mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com \( mark wilson \) writes wed wsj start white house , seeking mount public pressure gop senators , bombarded news outlets senator 's home states news releases warning certain projects may funded stimulus bill n't passed none projects mentioned actually bill , rather part wish list may funded 2 56 billion community development block grants end could sworn heard bunch clintonites going , raving dishonest taking items wish list order ridicule bill clinton using list order garner support bill , guys going honorable thing say clinton dishonest one clintonites cited , 'll try clarify since case clinton 's dishonesty \( wo n't necessarily defend issues \) never specific projects included community development block grant portion president 's proposal congressional republicans , effort discredit stimulus package , selected felt silly sounding projects wish list potential projects prepared us conference stimulus package ever proposed \( document question designed pressure white house increase size block grant proposal submitted congress n't work \) 2 56 \( \? \) billion proposed stimulus package came nowhere close covering total estimated cost original wish list passed , communities would select projects fund level case spokane , wa , tom foley 's home district , one ever expected able local swimming pool \( one examples \) funds available stimulus package since estimated cost exceeded total amount block grant funds city would receive stimulus package projects plan , instead , use money public housing construction cope severe housing shortage \( yup , places true \) swimming pool improvements near bottom long list priorities prepared city 3 million received would cover pressing priorities block grants cut stimulus package , projects affected lack funds clinton administration issue final point one may may like community block grants worth noting , however , congressional opposition new since nixon administration , republicans generally supported grants alternative targeted federal spending , arguing local governments far better able determine spending priorities washington bureaucrats clear \? complicated understand \? jsh steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing data , sure cut uucp ! uunet ! isc br ! thor ! steveh bulls r hofferbert bell 509 838 8826
rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu \( ryan c scharfy \) subject many homosexuals \? nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university distribution usa lines 28 article sdsu edu ucssun1 sdsu edu \( riyadh al ha \) writes kaldis romulus rutgers edu \( theodore kaldis \) writes perhaps 1 , likely 2 new study \( discrediting kinsey \) says views expressed herein theodore kaldis seriously kaldis remus rutgers edu believe major university ! rutgers ! remus rutgers edu ! kaldis would hold views \? \? \? understanding classes percentage like 10 12 world wide would really like know source 1 2 figure riyadh sdsu chemistry ucssun1 sdsu edu survey conducted u government group \( n't know \) calling news shows morning , comprehensive survey sexuality past 50 years exact quote , get idea low percentage merely one ton evidence disproving 10 theory ryan
rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu \( ryan c scharfy \) subject new study gay percentage nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 43 article 1993apr16 hemlock cray com rja mahogany126 cray com \( russ anderson \) writes article 15378 optilink com , cramer optilink com \( clayton cramer \) writes santa rosa \( cal \) press democrat , april 15 , 1993 , p b2 male sex survey gay activity low new natonal study male sexual behavior , thorough examination american men 's sexual practices published since kinsey report four decades ago , shows 2 percent men surveyed engaged homosexual sex 1 percent considered exclusively homosexual actually , study shows 2 percent men surveyed said engaged homosexual sex 1 percent said considered exclusively homosexual yes , course kinsey report taken 50 years ago much liberal times regarding homosexuality point people say acutally may different interesting clip newspaper mention difference maybe conservative media bias \) smart enough realize argument would apply every survey regarding homosexuality therefore , would look stupid \( actually , see bryant bring point hee , hee \) figures homosexuality study released wednesday alan guttmacher institute significantly lower 10 percent figure part conventional wisdom since published kinsey report ryan
stephen orchid ucsc edu \( \) subject rational viewpoint new study gay percentage organization santa cruz lines 29 nntp posting host orchid ucsc edu article news cso uiuc edu dans uxa cso uiuc edu \( dan \) writes n't forget culture sadly , n't \( society \) look upon homosexuality normal \( well aware , alot people condemn \) result , gay population encouraged develop non promiscuous relationships fact many roadblocks put way committed relationships heterosexual community puts blocks perpetuate claim gays immoral , allowed gays marry , raise children might find 're moral , ca n't \? thoughts flame away \) dan good point one held sometime allow people develop paths choose desire even heterosexuals tend leave hanging sense knowledge information sexuality relationships difficult young person develop build positive view themself constantly told implicitly explicitly wrong immoral concepts personal relationships deeply embedded emotionalism fear fears cover wide range , mostly jealousy lack trust seem modern day american relationships also set top concepts madison avenue standards put pressure measure
kaldis romulus rutgers edu \( theodore kaldis \) subject pat robertson says keywords homosexuality organization rutgers univ , new brunswick , n j lines 25 response report cbn news correspondent ken meeting slick willie homosexual activists clinton attending rally homosexuals washington later month instead town , retreat senate democrats robertson yeah , 'd better retreat laughter , followed sustained applause later , report correspondent deborah boycott instigated homosexuals colorado colorado ski resorts seen record crowds year despite call homosexual activists boycott state record mountains year , coming droves robertson god said , let snow sustained applause views expressed herein theodore kaldis seriously kaldis remus rutgers edu believe major university ! rutgers ! remus rutgers edu ! kaldis would hold views \? \? \?
stephen orchid ucsc edu \( \) subject new gay percentage organization santa cruz lines 38 nntp posting host orchid ucsc edu article murdoch acc virginia edu gsh7w fermi clas virginia edu \( greg hennessy \) writes clayton cramer writes compared table already posted masters , johnson , kolodny showing male homosexual partners , apparent homosexual men dramatically promiscuous general male population ever consider selection effect willing admit member sexual minority \( homosexuality \) willing admit member another sexual minority \( highly promiscious \) \? n't think greg hennessy , university virginia obvious mr cramer take listened several men involved study , even claim men involved whole put little value extrapolating types , limited subsets individuals , alot due improper selection methods , bias people involved studies sides subject researcher would admit part group well liked \? would admit sex people considered abnormal rate \( applies heterosexual men \) fact , one gay man one straight man put , men lie number partners , 's thing culture male almost requires type response may seem harmless silly , carries large emotional mental price tag hear college male students everyday talking conquest look good one another , least eyes also know alot go , many college males \( hetero \) lot sex different partners
rscharfy magnus acs ohio state edu \( ryan c scharfy \) subject new study gay percentage nntp posting host magnusug magnus acs ohio state edu organization ohio state university lines 17 article murdoch acc virginia edu gsh7w fermi clas virginia edu \( greg hennessy \) writes clayton cramer writes compared table already posted masters , johnson , kolodny showing male homosexual partners , apparent homosexual men dramatically promiscuous general male population ever consider selection effect willing admit member sexual minority \( homosexuality \) willing admit member another sexual minority \( highly promiscious \) \? oh yeah , men brag many woman 've ryan
eck panix com \( mark eckenwiler \) subject state justice organization nwo steering committee lines 52 1993apr15 143320 8618 desire wright edu , demon desire wright edu sez judge denied gm 's new trial motion , even though gm says two new witnesses said occupant truck dead impact , fire thoughts \? 's kind scary realize judges going start denying new trials even new evidence contradicts facts led previous ruling appear 's minor thing called interest means parties n't dragged court losing side discovers new evidence n't know , brett , suspect gm resources find many expert fact witnesses wanted trial started letting open case practically invitation every civil earth keep ace hole case verdict goes btw , federal criminal cases , rule 33 permit motion new trial based newly discovered evidence made within 2 years verdict \( emphasis mine \) 're trying make point criminal justice discussion little criminal trials david brock amusing wsj piece last week save breath judge decided new witnesses believed \? n't jury \? yup shoulda brought around first time members previous jury parading talk shows proclaiming obvious bias gm \? n't enough judge old verdict call new trial \? whatever happened jurors objective \? unless 's reason believe supposed bias trial \( opposed product \) , gm unfairly prevented discovering \( otherwise \) , gm allowed complain \? moral always choose right sort parents start rough george ade mark eckenwiler eck panix com ! cmcl2 ! panix ! eck
jfc athena mit edu \( john f carr \) subject state justice organization massachusetts institute technology lines 13 nntp posting host achates mit edu article 1993apr15 hemlock cray com rja mahogany126 cray com \( russ anderson \) writes 's guy death row texas denied new trial , dispite evidence recommend book adams v texas , story man \( adams \) sentenced death crime n't commit book story long appeals process , problems delays caused able introduce new evidence certain courts john carr \( jfc athena mit edu \)
cdm pmafire inel gov \( dale cook \) subject good neighbor political hypocrisy test organization winco lines 45 article news iastate edu jrbeach iastate edu \( jeffry r beach \) writes article 1993apr15 gordian com mike gordian com \( michael thomas \) writes really n't want waste time battle legalization drugs really want , get prove idiotic idea ! read know fuck i'm talking , eager make fool oh , foolish person know fuck i'm talking gladly demonstrate wish legalization drugs provide benefits highly taunted proponents safer , cheaper drugs along revenues taxes drugs reduced crime reduced organized crime specifically etc , etc ahhh , classic truth blatant assertion technique bad 's demonstrably false take look great britain sometime nice history drug evidence shows periods time drugs \( heroin \) illegal , crime went people die bad drugs times drugs legalized , trends reversed would like prove clueless , get lot wasted posts n't think group intended something easily solved little research great example proof gosh , i'm convinced \( humor impaired \) first , assert something evidence , dodge requests proof claiming know group intended research , 'd done , 'd realize plenty reason believe legalizing drugs many benefits society plausible arguments , , n't enough convince drugs answer i'm willing convinced i'm wrong , seriously doubt likes dale cook town churches bars serious social problem edward abbey opinions mine \( e , employer 's \)
matt berkeley edu \( matt \) subject state justice organization lawrence berkeley laboratory \( theoretical physics group \) lines 14 1993apr15 hemlock cray com senator bedfellow mit edu reply matt physics berkeley edu nntp posting host berkeley edu reply jfc athena mit edu 's message 16 apr 1993 21 05 46 gmt article senator bedfellow mit edu jfc athena mit edu \( john f carr \) writes recommend book adams v texas , story man \( adams \) sentenced death crime n't commit book story long appeals process , problems delays caused able introduce new evidence certain courts recommend movie thin blue line , case much legal detail , still excellent film shows easy come seemingly conclusive evidence someone think guilty matthew maybe eventually make language matt physics berkeley edu complete impediment understanding
garrett ingres com \( sky already fell \? \) subject bush 's wi \( clinton 's wiretapping initiative summary wiretapping initiative news software vax vms vnews 1 4 b1 keywords organization ask computer systems , ingres product division lines 29 article 9304161803 aa23713 inet gw 2 pa dec com , blh uiboise idbsu edu \( broward l horne \) writes look newsgroup , able find clinton 's proposed wiretapping initiative computer networks telephone systems 'initiative congress least past 6 months , guise fbi wiretapping bill guess strength n't math clinton n't president 6 months words , 's wiretapping initiative strongly urge begin considering future strongly urge get application passport mail soon strongly urge consider moving savings overseas , protected bank accounts , still able \? said anything panicking \? snapped authur garrett johnson still culture shock wait till 've garrett ingres com settled situation found bearings 'll start panicking ! douglas adams
kbanaian bernard pitzer claremont edu \( king banaian \) subject national sales tax , movie lines 43 organization pitzer college article veal 731 utkvm1 utk edu veal utkvm1 utk edu \( david veal \) writes article 1993apr16 alchemy chem utoronto ca golchowy alchemy chem utoronto ca \( gerald olchowy \) writes article aa05233 inet gw 2 pa dec com blh uiboise idbsu edu \( broward l horne \) writes n't republicans get act together , say support broad based vat would visible \( vat canada visible unlike invisible europe \) suggest rate sufficient income corporate capital gains tax rates rate sufficient give clintons enough revenue health care reform , republicans , general , fighting tax increase also worry vat would far easy increase incrementally graduate student early 1980s , conference jerry jordan , member council economic advisors , speaker pleasure driving back airport afterwards , since taxes main topic discussion thought would ask vat favored reasons mention , income base hazy define , taxes savings investment , likely visible agreed , reported cea time favor vat propose \? asked replied reagan white house feared democrats would introduce vat addition income tax , rather better give ideas , said pretty \( btw , different canada 's tax europe 's makes visible \? \) yes , canadian readers , please tell us tax displayed price stickers \( i'm relatively certain europe \) king sparky banaian 's almost though young kbanaian pitzer claremont edu white guys get dept economics , pitzer college morning big smile latest 1993 gdp forecast 2 4 face , know , homer wrote iliad
dsoconne quads uchicago edu \( daniel \) subject religion homosexuality keywords liberal reply dsoconne midway uchicago edu organization university chicago distribution usa lines 32 magnus acs ohio state edu \( computer \) writes recently realized bisexual , also recently returned religion , good friend pointed homosexuality sin bible well , n't see could considered sin , first far know , male homosexuality explicitly mentioned bibles , 're hook , think event , plenty people many denominations consider person 's sexual identification gay lesbian bisexual immoral lifestyle choice also , always somewhat liberal feminist , pro choice , seems pro choice religious n't mix either told another misconception told whole story former minister lesbian , know personally professionally several openly gay lesbian ministers like others denomination , pro choice need n't go looking \( liberal religion \) acceptance sexual identification pro choice views , however many us believe spirituality freedom conscience good luck journey ! daniel theological school university chicago divinity school dsoconne uchicago edu
pharvey quack kfu com \( paul harvey \) subject 5 apr 93 god 's promise psalm 85 8 organization duck pond public unix 1 408 249 9630 , log 'guest' lines 21 article acsu buffalo edu psyrobtw ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( robert weiss \) writes hear god lord speak speak peace unto people , saints let turn folly \( jps \) leader psalm lord , favor land , restore jacob 's fortune forgive people 's iniquity , pardon sins withdraw anger , turn away rage turn , god , helper , revoke displeasure us angry us forever , prolong wrath generations \? surely revive us , people may rejoice show us , lord , faithfulness grant us deliverance let hear god , lord , speak promise well people , faithful ones may turn folly help near fear , make glory dwell land faithfulness truth meet justice well kiss truth springs earth justice looks heaven lord also bestows bounty land yields produce justice goes sets way
david r sacco dsav andrew cmu edu subject spreading christianity \( christian extremist kills doctor \) organization misc student , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 29 distribution na 1993apr2 cbnewsj cb att com nntp posting host po4 andrew cmu edu reply 1993apr2 cbnewsj cb att com snide , think christianity must convenient religion , suitable occassion since seems one take way one wants go follow whichever bits one pleases reinterpret bits n't match one 's desires , fact , convenient , capable believing god , might consider going brand christianity difficulty left , course , picking sect join many dean kaflowitz yes , christianity convenient following teachings jesus christ ten commandments convenient trying love hateful world convenient turning cheek convenient convenient burdensome times dave many among us feel life joke \( bob dylan \) never let school interfere education \( mark twain \) rumors death greatly exaggerated \( mark twain \) tact getting point across without stabbing someone subtlety saying mean , getting way understood happy every day life would n't human , 'd game show host \( taken movie \)
joslin pogo isp pitt edu \( david joslin \) subject food thought tyre organization intelligent systems program lines 10 af664 yfn ysu edu \( frank decenso , jr \) writes pps giving many clues \? many clues , enough substance ask lot good questions , though , questions worried , i'm inerrantist let know ready get serious dj
boylan dec com \( steve boylan \) subject christian daemons \? biblical demons , update reply boylan enet dec com \( steve boylan \) organization digital equipment corporation lines 61 article 1993apr1 uucp , uucp \( \) writes swaim owlnet rice edu \( michael parks swaim \) writes 666 , file permission beast uucp \( \) writes sorry , file permission beast 600 file permission home directory beast 700 boylan dec com \( steve boylan \) writes hey , , must depend system 's access policy get ls lg usr users total 3 22 beast system 1536 jan 01 1970 beast drwxr x x 32 boylan users 2048 mar 31 09 08 boylan drwxr xr x 2 guest users 512 sep 18 1992 guest su password root su beast beast 111 beast root minute grep beast etc passwd beast 497 0 walt disney ! usr users beast mv usr users beast profile usr users beast profile , echo 077 usr users beast profile cat usr users beast profile chmod 700 usr users beast mv mailrc mailrc , echo beast logged mail jack sns com mv mailrc , mailrc mv usr users beast profile , usr users beast profile chmod 777 usr users beast profile cat usr users beast profile , usr users beast profile waits , finally gets mail think made mistake check see 're running ultrix ! \) steve n't miss 49th new england folk festival , april 23 25 , 1993 , massachusetts !
subject christian devil revealed ! pharvey quack kfu com \( paul harvey \) organization duck pond public unix 1 408 249 9630 , log 'guest' lines 56 puzzled concept adam eve coming know good evil resolved within god 's universe action equal opposite reaction good without evil opposite issue give allegiance , even sinful state , perform evil act submitted god place sinful act account \( rom 4 8 \) vein perform good deeds book , life god 's control still sinning \( see rom 14 23 \) , take good look , tell man , christian devil \? , real , virus , meme , possessing good people keep 'em becoming human beings emphasis ! matter good people evil people , good people see , good people christian devil ca n't burn lynch rape wise let rise christian devil real man , else explain five hundred years history , even \? explained christians invoke christian devil keep knocking ca n't come , got understand 've living sin , walk right sit right , 'll keep loving , 'll play clown , bend low , let tell know yah 've brothers 've stoned , woe , woe , woe , i'm hung tree , woe , woe , woe , n't matter man lives life loves , n't matter man honest life loves , want somewhere , want somewhere , hallelujah , hallelujah , somewhere lay head , woe beat man stiff fools , think 're cool , deny simplicity , yes gone , long love vanity , yes got wrong interpretation mixed vain imagination , take jah sun jah moon jah rain jah stars , forever yes erase fantasy , yeah , lips righteous teach many , fools die want wisdom , rich man 's wealth city , righteous wealth holy place , take jah sun jah moon jah rain jah stars , forever yes erase fantasy , destruction poor poverty , destruction soul vanity , yeah , n't want rule ya , n't want fool ya , n't want school ya , things , might never know , yes got wrong interpretation mixed vain , vain imagination , stiff fools , think 're cool , deny , oh simplicity love see , yah move rhythm , love see 're dancing within , gives great joy feel sweet , everyone 's 're best , remind days jericho , jericho wall , days 'll true babylon , gonna babylon fall saw angel seven seals saying , babylon throne going weeping wailing tonight
subject imaginary friends dragons mice ccwf cc utexas edu \( b e o'hare \) organization university texas austin , austin , texas nntp posting host tigger cc utexas edu lines 17 sounds really cute , ! kinds like pete 's dragon , maybe smaller , maybe different species 'd \? \( wing ed \) 've always hat horde mice turn fun sort kind mouse cinderella \( walt disney \) grew sort child , part time siblings 10 8 6 years older , pretty commonly different sort games \( read non speaking hot cocoa , stand \( still silent \) bad guy good guy etc \) , mice , advisors could curt , whomever good list books please post list , sorts fields , like , condensed etc philosophies , multiple disorders , good fiction well worked imaginary friends \? thanks , , wanting bunch library topics search thru
mayne pipe cs fsu edu \( william mayne \) subject list biblical contradictions organization florida state university computer science department reply mayne cs fsu edu lines 14 article blue cis pitt edu joslin pogo isp pitt edu \( david joslin \) writes many good points deleted anyone missed see original lists like toss bunch quotes together make bible verse n't cut us want argue inerrancy find sort thing embarassing fundies find josh mcdowell true , except 've known fundies enough sense embarrassed josh mcdowell \( okay , maybe cheap shot i'm kind mood \) bill mayne
af664 yfn ysu edu \( frank decenso , jr \) subject list biblical contradictions organization youngstown state youngstown free net lines 12 nntp posting host yfn ysu edu someone posted list x number alleged bible contradictions joslin said , people value quantity quality dave butler posted good quality alleged contradictions taking long time properly want good list \( quantity \) critics ask , popular handbook bible difficulties dr norman deals 800 alleged contradictions frank one wished contend , could answer one time thousand job 9 3
thyagi cup portal com \( thyagi morgoth nagasiva \) subject david koresh messianic cult \? \? \? organization portal system \( tm \) distribution world lines 12 hello read first newspaper noticed article leader named 'd like know going please email n't normally read newsgroup thanks thyagi abyss com
lovall bohr physics purdue edu \( daniel l lovall \) subject cannibalism albert sabin organization purdue university physics department lines 49 article studserv studserv zdv uni tuebingen de \( c \) writes quack kfu com pharvey quack kfu com \( paul harvey \) writes article access digex net huston access digex com \( herb huston \) writes article quack kfu com pharvey quack kfu com \( paul harvey \) writes examples ritual cannibalism , particulary amongst primates \? ritual qualifier \? thinking instances particular food foods drinks used symbolize cannibalism know human cultures type mythology \? example , one might eat food representative body god , thus cannibalism absence original know ritual cannibalism among tribes \( \? \) used eat brain killed opponents sometimes brains contained infectious agents lead disease called since cannibalism banished government , number cases dropped sharply oh , yeah \? well know anyways , cannibalism much feel wrong \( point fact western n't proof positive advanced \) would us believe cannibalism often used funeral ceremonies way keeping deceased loved one alive many cultures \( including many american indian cultures \) eat ate flesh slain enemies , often way showing respect departed hearts often favored , contains spirit ever read seen alive , story argentinian boys soccer team crashed ate bodies died order survive \? finger good zone episode serve man \? want info , good place start sci anthropology send 20 eat flesh , dan lovall physics purdue edu
brownvm brown edu \( alex \) subject 666 , number beast , viewer organization brown university providence , rhode island usa lines 15 nntp posting host brownvm brown edu x news software bnn via bnn post v1 0 beta article rice edu , swaim owlnet rice edu \( michael parks swaim \) said posted 27 mar 1993 00 16 13 michael parks swaim article cs psu edu math psu edu \( jeremy hall \) writes well , math , get \( 6 6 \) 6 2 , 189 , 739 , 336 mean anything anyone \? \) 5 1 5 thus fitting neatly something else everything sun tune nd sun moon hut smoking \? pink floyd alex eclipse curious
thyagi cup portal com \( thyagi morgoth nagasiva \) subject zoroastrianism san jose \( merc news article \) organization portal system \( tm \) distribution world lines 169 zoroastrianism san jose , ca , usa monday april 5 , 1993 san jose mercury news , page 1 reproduced without permission 3 , 700 year tradition still u threatens ancient zoroastrian jeanne huber , mercury news staff writer high hillside san jose , flames leap 24 hours day gleaming brass urn temple one four united states dedicated one world 's ancient religions flames go prayers 1 , 200 bay area zoroastrians faith survive land fear real fear , , said lafayette one generation die many immigrant groups struggle maintain identity strange land zoroastrians , especially concern religion around perhaps 3 , 700 years , heritage deep scarcely seems state historical sites sometimes less 100 years old religion great persian empire kings cyrus darius tradition says christ born 500 years later , honored visit three zoroastrian priests , magi scholars say many key beliefs christians , jews muslims traced teachings zoroaster , zoroastrian prophet yet , 150 , 000 zoroastrians entire world , miniscule minority every country live survival people much minds ironically , local zoroastrians fear almost unlimited tolerance united states may hundreds years persecution followed nearly 1 , 000 years benign religious segregation could cause young people stop thinking zoroastrians zoroastrians believe right religion , actually shun notion trying win converts children become totally assimilated , say , 's children rather world large losers 's important identity , said san jose , leader among zoroastrians came india 's important everybody irish , scottish , americans gives meaning life n't depend majority community give respect fall back identity zoroastrians , 's much proud prophet , zoroaster , seeking make sense culture animal sacrifice multiple gods common , preached one god , good one zoroastrians call god ahura mazda , translates lord wisdom light good vs evil zoroaster saw life constant struggle good evil , good eventually winning men women could join battle good , said , warned would inevitably suffer consequences shame sorrow wrong preached honesty , charity , kindness animals , respect environment , hard work , equality men women basic virtues preached prophets many religions zoroaster perhaps unusual told followers follow blindly demanded think fact , joseph campbell , famous scholar history meaning myths , traced western emphasis individual thought zoroastrians zoroastrians many words thought motto , leaded glass window sacred fire temple slopes mount hamilton , good thoughts , good words , good deeds 's surprising zoroastrians value education highly india , contingent zoroastrians arrived ninth century escape persecution muslims iran , zoroastrians claim 100 percent literacy overall statistic india 60 percent half bay area zoroastrian community came india pakistan , mostly study universities half fled iran 1979 revolution made fundamentalist islamic state others rights local zoroastrians point pride ways emphasis good deeds improved life every country inhabit san jose , recent restoration hotel came , san francisco based , passed downtown landmark way temple temple 's dedication , chief guest honor mother mehta , zoroastrian conductor new york temple exists another good deed decision iranian , late , buy land six temples north america besides 10 acre site road mount hamilton , paid land los angeles , chicago , new york , toronto , vancouver gifts , zoroastrian temples continent local zoroastrians raised money build actual temple , property already large house converted community center temple , dedicated year ago birthday prophet zoroaster , simple structure gleaming white walls , ceilings oak floors , partially covered huge oriental central feature fire , set middle partly area center building although zoroastrians sometimes called fire worshippers , actually consider fire symbol god helps us concentrate , like christians use cross muslims use holy book , said biggest celebration years occurs early spring iranians , including zoroastrians , new year begins first day season symbolism start new life zoroaster 's birthday six days later , combination religious secular holidays creates something par united states christmas jan 1 year 's celebration prophet 's birthday , 500 people came worship revel good things life forbidden , , leader iranian members , said beforehand , followed proved right inside temple , worshipers filled every chair sat stood around edges room half dozen priests chanted prayers around table laden smoking , glasses milk water , tray dried fruit nuts kids crowded around , grabbing treats people eat fruit , said 's way participate ceremony santa claus , sort gathering even santa claus , iranian style flowing white hair bag gifts children , wore green symbolic spring \) red sort spring clown , , danced played zoroastrians india new us , , one told visitor asked going visitor , john folsom , said became religion years ago business trips iran zoroastrians procedure accepting converts result , say , centuries persecution iran followed promise hindu king allowed india would interfere people 's religion stop joining celebrations san jose temple whenever first heard religion , said , thought , god , religion think good people n't tradition , something lean , 's difference lower animals \? end article
bskendig netcom com \( brian kendig \) subject list biblical contradictions organization starfleet headquarters san francisco lines 30 joslin pogo isp pitt edu \( david joslin \) writes i'm curious know purpose people think lists serve lists like seem value quantity quality , argument article length list poorer quality agree , 've asked help reason i'm working list 've recently one many christians tell bible contains contradictions whatsoever believe 's true , describes reality perfectly , even predicts history happens carry sort meaningful conversation people , 've got show , concrete evidence , bible nearly thought hope list specifically bring fact genesis contains two contradictory creation stories , usually get blank flat denials 've never fundamentalist acknowledge indeed two different accounts creation brian kendig je ne suis fait comme aucun bskendig netcom com de ceux que j'ai vus j'ose croire n'etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent meaning life si je ne vaux pas mieux , au moins je suis autre ends rousseau
panix com \( len \) subject bhagavad gita 2 32 organization panix public access internet unix , nyc lines 79 kalki writes topics discussed vedas fact , original knowledge topics comes vedas therefore , rather old standards popularity currently experiencing something new one would think vedas would popular among , since things mention thoroughly described n't interesting \? ! jewish tradition incredibly wrong ! originate torah jewish ancestors , specifically patriarch abraham \( z l \) knowledge sent east india china abraham gave gifts \( commentators jewish scripture say knowledge occult arts \) rest children sent away east assured isaac , remained abraham , would inherit important spiritual gifts , eventually became judaism see , religions parochial views jewish view , mistaken , scripture scripture , gods gods , practices errors lead people idol worship away god n't stop us respecting extent trying convert proselytize willing dialog respectful manner 're content let live way care live long leave us happy co exist long give us right incredible violent nature seems preclude bad typical religion \? however , one difference practitioner actual follower vedic teachings typical desires acquire material powers mentioned vedas , without referring source , lord wants kingdom god without god wants personal power without responsibility acknowledging source , without person power comes words , plain selfish fellow ! dare presume typical new n't acknowledge god selfish trite , self righteous , ego garbage ! buddhists , christians , jews , many religions newsgroups words simple slander vedic follower , hand , knows matter one desires , one must worship god vedas give complete description exactly god , mistake identification reason parts vedas deal directly personality godhead popular among , anyone presents complete vedas evangelist \( something wrong \) even though simply presenting vedic teachings course , jewish perspective incredibly wrong 'd say godhead created beings may enjoying good laugh expense thief takes others says mine takes god says mine false must careful avoid coming contact real owner things stolen consequently , invents explanation things conveniently omits identity owner , lord words , lies got selfish , also thieves liars ! expect us pay attention religion \? call us name \? maybe 'll convert ! however , lord merciful , sends servants remind identity spirit soul , eternal servant god hence , although unwanted , evangelist continues broadcast complete truth len panix com
bobsarv microsoft com \( bob sarver \) subject question popular morality organization microsoft corp distribution usa lines 102 article 1993apr03 microsoft com bobsarv microsoft com \( bob sarver \) writes understand words mean someone pain enjoy , nothing wrong may think 's gross bizarre \( might agree \) , disgust equal morally wrong \( hudson \) someone pain , whether enjoy , hurting may permanently damaging body true also none business people may also reason reading bible xtian permanently damaging brain logic , would ok come home , take away bible , send education camps save mind ruin ready \? \( hudson \) nothing wrong \? say \? gave authority say , set standard morality \? \? living , thinking person able make choices need show think way observed many errors thinking already trust make rules set standard morality , permit also try force accept rules simply n't like people n't give right stop , hudson aware would like everyone like however , obnoxious , arrogant thinking like , know i'm morally right force bullshit brought us religious wars , pogroms jews , gay bashing , atrocities people , like , knew morally right \( \) , hudson \? think know better people , want able tell cannot \? died made god \? come ca n't thing \? \( hudson \) n't \? n't indicating tell people \? n't telling wrong \? moral standard presenting , hudson key getting along life people also point respect trust people intelligent enough make choices , expect returned , hand , trust , want make choice whether like also way avoid inconsistency believe right set moral standards others interfere lives , must , logic , admit people right interference life \( yes , know say religion correct tells agents acting behalf religion right interference however , people say misinterpreted word god actual true believers , acting authority goes \) \( hudson \) gave authority set moral standard tell cannot set moral standard others \? set standards want , actually n't surprised people n't follow like rats piper basic form , going let tell necessary , beat bloody pulp let actually interfere life , humane level , recognize people sentient beings possessed intelligence capable reason also recognize , like , appreciate treated respect allowed make decisions
bobsarv microsoft com \( bob sarver \) subject question popular morality organization microsoft corp distribution usa lines 57 \( hudson \) people hurt bodies ca n't hurt peoples bodies \? \( \) people might want hurt , hudson hurting violation choice \( hudson \) someone elses big deal morality relative n't believe ever said morality relative said make mind , thank , n't right tell others think think find moral systems , respect human life dignity person stuff besides points forms core disagreement primitive moral like rest us \( hudson \) maybe \( insane lover pain might reason \) people experienced enough pain , might learn enjoy , fine still clinical definition crazy also involves violation free , insane lover little example would inflicting pain non willing subject try \( hudson \) premises derive \( \) , n't patently false statement \( hudson \) sort premise choice self awareness , demonstrated example football team n't require premises freedom choice self awareness said , wrong , n't seem know much moral systems , would take david bold 's suggestion reading subject try preaching
bobsarv microsoft com \( bob sarver \) subject question popular morality organization microsoft corp distribution usa lines 123 \( hudson \) yes say immoral experience pain hurt way maybe unpleasant , n't say anything morality violates free , hudson \( \) derive immorality hurting someone else entirely selfish motives say , example , wrong hurt people makes less productive members society \( hudson \) making someone less productive member society immoral \? hudson , screwing morality \( say , \) define right wrong also defines acceptable social behavior , without good evil picking trash really right wrong moral issue eternal sense good evil yet moral sense acceptable social behavior definition word morality causing trip \( \) since , selfish , want maximize gains society , anything another member society action might cut much benefit derive society \( hudson \) benefit somehow related morality , definition causing shoot foot \( hudson \) someone feels personal benefit enhanced would damaged overall resources society \? maybe something might hurt society , would help \? irrational thinking may also people think death atomic destruction sublime wonderful thing going let execute idea want simply let people make minds morals n't prevent spotting stopping madman see one , hudson even , stop interferes life difference want interfere people 's lives even n't affecting \( hudson \) central character dostoevsky 's novel , crime punishment , \( r something \) reasoned killed old jewish woman stole money educate establish financially , could make great contribution society reasoned much profit society collected , money one central points \( 's \) moral system internally consistent killing , character accept premise ends justify means accepted premise , \( order consistent \) , must accept idea day another person may apply standard life , unwilling accept premise \( willing accept \) , behaved moral standard \( \) football example deleted \( hudson \) suppose freshman bench get play one players field court injured \( killed \) freshman wants play big game talent scout see hurts player team , might slightly lessen chances team win , might gain great personal benefit , operating purely selfish \( selfish \) motives , sniper shoot team player leg gets play front talent scout freshman behave morally \? selfish intentions may sometimes generate \( apparently \) moral actions , always two problems right bat 1 problem analogy n't address goal started winning game playing front talent scout ! winning game try creating analogy keep ultimate goal , \? 2 internal consistency question also addressed freshman wants people , accept fact may happen one day unwilling , violated moral standard
bobsarv microsoft com \( bob sarver \) subject question popular morality organization microsoft corp distribution usa lines 96 \( hudson \) materialistic point view , could said nervous system matter wrong producing chemical reactions matter \? matter different alive , self aware feels pain \( hudson \) morality relative big hairy deal said , appear person saying morality relative people know hold absolutes moral system personally believe dignity individual right free absolutes recognize moral systems around n't accept reject dangerous anti social \( nazism , forms communism , fundamentalist xtianity , 's slam \) part , almost every moral system agrees two points \( \) sky , everything everything created came god everything , including matter , part god therefore , wrong put parts god test tube make go reactions \? n't form blasphemy \? \( hudson \) generally , christians believe creator creation distinction religions believe one big whole n't accept premises bad know i'm right , get enforce view upon whether like premise since ca n't prove otherwise , n't even intellectual basis resistance accepting viewpoint \( hudson \) long long n't hurt someone else becomes relative rule left want , matter hurts 's big jump two positions , know well n't play stupid realize 're trying dispute call popular morality using think logic , 're stretching bit thin \( hudson \) n't think morality becomes relative , degenerates saying reasoning generally evil hurt people bad \( though n't think sufficient \) well , answer seem opposed moral relativism \( call \) capacity degenerate obviously , , would advocate \( absolute \) moral system whose absolutist moral system choose \? come decision \? people disagree chosen moral system \? \( hudson \) morality considered relative , rule n't based anything , arbitrary rule , people might abandon fine agree typed however , morality gets based something mean pick xtianity base start morality based dignity humans , freedom choice , tolerance , etc never ever rely xtianity anything someone consistent moral system based true principles mean involve xtianity xtianity certainly monopoly principles behavior indeed , fewer religions violating principles
bobsarv microsoft com \( bob sarver \) subject question popular morality organization microsoft corp distribution usa lines 103 article microsoft com bobsarv microsoft com \( bob sarver \) writes would immoral hurt someone else \? \( \) would n't want happen \( hudson \) make something immoral \? consistent moral systems must consistent person thinks inflict pain others , n't want inflicted upon , double standard double standards violation moral system \( \) morality defines interact people rules use guide daily affairs conduct towards fellow man realizing n't like pain , also realize people n't like , either \( hudson \) course n't like pain n't like brussel sprouts brussel sprouts immoral \? pain n't immoral , stupid pain physiological reaction immoral unwilling individuals pain brussel sprouts , matter \( hudson \) immoral produce chemical reactions test tube \? \( \) n't chemical reaction wrong , bozo 's making human undergo effects chemical reaction sorry cute little analogy n't survive long scrutiny \( hudson \) would wrong make humans undergo effects reactions humans composed matter \? humans composed n't qualifying criteria whether something would wrong \( hudson \) wrong make matter undergo chemical reactions \? yes , sentient matter \( \) nature sentient force choice involved therefore , question morality \( hudson \) actually heard entertain notion matter sentient force fine also heard government encoding dna new race ordinary drinking water 's point \? \( hudson \) humans made matter , choices also chemical reactions , choice important issue case , god idea contained minds people \( formed matter \) printed pages \( also formed matter \) really exist ad well , wo n't prove points got anything relevant want talk , playing cute little games \?
hudson athena cs uga edu \( paul hudson jr \) subject list biblical contradictions organization university georgia , athens lines 14 article netcom com bskendig netcom com \( brian kendig \) writes specifically bring fact genesis contains two contradictory creation stories , usually get blank flat denials 've never fundamentalist acknowledge indeed two different accounts creation two creation stories one worst examples difficulty bible formed also translated formed chapter two without problems text demand two creation stories link hudson
hudson athena cs uga edu \( paul hudson jr \) subject question popular morality organization university georgia , athens lines 11 article 1993apr5 midway uchicago edu dsoconne midway uchicago edu writes base true absolute morality stand note majority people remain , idea probably n't worth much pragmatic sense maybe stand base , precious link
hudson athena cs uga edu \( paul hudson jr \) subject religion homosexuality keywords liberal organization university georgia , athens distribution usa lines 18 article 1993apr5 midway uchicago edu dsoconne midway uchicago edu writes first far know , male homosexuality explicitly mentioned bibles , 're hook , actually , one condemnation lesbian acts bible , romans 1 26 think event , plenty people many denominations consider person 's sexual identification gay lesbian bisexual immoral lifestyle choice plenty n't read bible pray matter link hudson
rps cbnewsh cb att com \( raj sharma \) subject bhagavad gita 2 32 organization distribution usa lines 25 poster writes kingdom god \( \) tigers eat living beings material world , everyone trying consume everyone else therefore \( even tigers , means invincible \) try get miserable material situation return kingdom god called material world outside kingdom god \? right , unfortunately , acting like animals number one modern human beings aha , animals inferior , humans superior huh \? n't desire superior overwhelming \? humans constantly put even innocent animals raj p request please e mail copy response raj , read regularly
lfoard hopper virginia edu \( lawrence c foard \) subject 666 mark beast need info organization itc uva community access unix internet project lines 15 slightly different note two buildings ny state big 666 numbers roof \) one manhattan one near garden city garden city one nice black building join pythagorean reform church ! repent evil irrational numbers bean eating ways accept 10 heart ! call pythagorean reform church bbs 508 793 9568
bskendig netcom com \( brian kendig \) subject list biblical contradictions organization starfleet headquarters san francisco lines 24 hudson athena cs uga edu \( paul hudson jr \) writes bskendig netcom com \( brian kendig \) writes specifically bring fact genesis contains two contradictory creation stories , usually get blank flat denials 've never fundamentalist acknowledge indeed two different accounts creation two creation stories one worst examples difficulty bible formed also translated formed chapter two without problems text demand two creation stories really \? n't get genesis first says god created earth , animals , humans turns around says humans created animals ! escape contradiction \? brian kendig je ne suis fait comme aucun bskendig netcom com de ceux que j'ai vus j'ose croire n'etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent meaning life si je ne vaux pas mieux , au moins je suis autre ends rousseau
hall boi hp com \( hal \) subject lds kermit 's reply tony rose free book mormon organization hewlett packard boise , idaho x newsreader tin version 1 1 4 pl6 lines 83 robert weiss \( psyrobtw ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \) wrote \( lots stuff nicene creed deleted read original also leave lds netters take mr weiss task using mormon doctrine declare word lds church teaches doctrine hopefully lds netters explanation \) since would good rebut mr weiss stated origin nicene creed status devine inspired \( say good cannot proved discussion debate whether authors creed inspired \) , leave \( time post \) following thought authored eugene england , professor english brigham young university mr england wrote following part book review section people 's magazine \( spring 1993 edition \) conclude little sermon believe mormon human family get labeling rejecting terms like feminist , liberal conservative \( christian non christian hal 8 \) tempted draw circle around set beliefs traditions styles call american , exclude n't fit , may well consider perhaps central defining characteristic good american might one n't draw exclusive circles surest way excluding central american ideal excluding others tempted draw circle around mormon christian , decide orthodox n't much agree us , might well consider central pillar christ 's orthodoxy ability love unconditionally different include family recently spent time christian bookstore california service excellent , clerks customers smiling , neat , well , expected wholesome offerings scriptural commentaries , fiction , collections evangelistic sermons dismayed find much shelf space given attacking others , often whether political left , modern american culture , religions whole section devoted cults occult , might expect , mormonism right indictment \( often authors \) satanism found could either rent buy \( english spanish \) copies god makers \( inaccurate , even libelous , popular dangerous anti mormon film uses exaclty techniques even accusations nazi films jews 1930s \) seems one major indication person genuine convert christ redemptive love lack paranoia anxiety \( perfect love fear , john 4 18 \) always pleased lds church engaged attacks faiths , though find increase willingness individual mormons engage kinds stereotyping even threats coercive action religious right wing launched year political left american cultural religious styles n't like fearful irony mormons take common cause people attacked mormons people would , power , forcefully restrict rights along others believe evil sermon addressed lds audience usually subscribe people 's magazine , would certainly apply us rely grace jesus christ bring us back arms even though lds church claims devine authority exercise principles restored gospel days christ , church claim perfection infallibility authoritative status lead church , one , wish labelled christian , profess christians attack beliefs \( example \) way religion may interpret biblical scriptures source different meaning implication mainstream christianity would give , majority prove anything except collective voice louder 's really critics lds church stand terms kind biblical interpretation used proof counter lds interpretation ! using someone elses biased research truths non truths \( whose say mixture \? \) authoritative tool disprove discredit fair anyone , least let us simply agree disagree , share beliefs adult discussion conversation , thereby everyone hal signing !
dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu \( darius lecointe \) subject spreading christianity \( christian extremist kills doctor \) organization florida state university distribution na lines 23 david r sacco dsav andrew cmu edu writes snide , think christianity must convenient religion , suitable occassion since seems one take way one wants go follow whichever bits one pleases reinterpret bits n't match one 's desires , fact , convenient , capable believing god , might consider going brand christianity difficulty left , course , picking sect join many dean kaflowitz yes , christianity convenient following teachings jesus christ ten commandments convenient trying love hateful world convenient turning cheek convenient convenient burdensome times dave christians take 10 discount ten commandments sunday cannot substituted sabbath
psyrobtw ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( robert weiss \) subject 6 apr 93 god 's promise john 16 24 organization university buffalo lines 8 news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host ubvmsb cc buffalo edu ye asked nothing name ask , ye shall receive , joy may full john 16 24
psyrobtw ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( robert weiss \) subject lds hal 's reply organization university buffalo lines 38 news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host ubvmsb cc buffalo edu article boi hp com , hall boi hp com \( hal \) writes dr england 's story deleted , nice read first time lead church , one , wish labelled christian , profess christians attack beliefs \( example \) way religion may interpret biblical scriptures source different meaning implication mainstream christianity would give n't much matter bible texts sets mormonism apart orthodoxy matter fabrication 20 years ago , national comic strips drawn neal adams called son o' god comics parody jesus bible comic , group thirteen jewish kids brooklyn , one said magic word , turned son o' god went myopic , curly headed , wearing boy replica jesus long flowing brown hair gentile features , someone profess faith jesus , claim christian believed jesus , would say fallacious since jesus fabrication , really exist exact thing lds claim christian profess faith jesus , jesus profess faith much fabrication jesus robert weiss psyrobtw ubvms cc buffalo edu
leo unm edu \( ron \) subject 666 , number beast , viewer organization university new mexico , albuquerque lines 7 nntp posting host leo unm edu article doh cat cis brown edu brownvm brown edu \( alex \) writes well , math , get \( 6 6 \) 6 2 , 189 , 739 , 336 mean anything anyone \? \) 5 1 5 thus fitting neatly something else course , 2 1 8 9 7 3 9 3 3 6 51 , , quite obviously 23 23 5 r
david terminus ericsson se \( david bold \) subject question popular morality reply david terminus ericsson se distribution world organization camtec electronics \( ericsson \) , leicester , england lines 50 nntp posting host paul hudson jr \( hudson athena cs uga edu \) writes directly going come moral argument existence god rather , trying show absurdity atheistic trying embrace common moral system though absolute man knows heart right wrong inherited knowledge matter absurd suggest common moral system created mankind absolute , contrary reason suggest common moral system created mankind sensible fact , bible use mankind moral code , must interpreted mankind workable moral system created everyday use jewish talmud result centuries biblical scholars every word torah understand morality behind children israel given strict set moral , civil , judicial ceremonial laws follow yet clearly enough cover every instance moral dilemma society christian , situation better seems code morality judeo christian god contained bible \( see diverse opinions christian newsgroups clear \) may well absolute morality defined judeo christian god mankind follow seems subset simply concept written man leads problem defining morality society take divine morality code practice may interpreted many different ways \( example , consider heretics fifteenth century interpretation bible allows man another man administer justice \) take agnostic morality code practice modified suit society \( danger implies \) alternatively , could take basis judeo christian morality interpret extend create justify code morality suits society live enables people live \( many christian non christian philosophers done \) whatever driving force behind definition morality society , think important aspect result david religion oh , sea \? , fishes cried , swam
dma org \( mark \) subject fragmentation organization dayton microcomputer association dayton , ohio x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 49 primary problem human nature fragmentation humans state tension , tension opposites good evil thought provoking polarities come mind bible provides us many examples fragmentation warring opposites within us product man 's rebellion god , described pages scriptures man created order become god words st basil fourth century trying say god created man divine nature eastern orthodox church , called , one also say man created whole , e spirit , soul , body operating unison story adam eve picture humans obtaining moral consciousness relationship , world , creator innocent harmony shattered god , natural falling apart two seemingly halves immediately , guilt fear manifested lives become bound , toil , suffering symbolized exile state beast jungle possess moral consciousness receive self awareness , knowledge good evil , state would also destroyed intention creator leave man state innocence days existence earth \? gaining self awareness carefully staged god , desire masterpiece , mankind , idiot \? god must known , mankind achieve kind moral value , must pass confrontation opposites way achieve union god jesus christ answer problem warring polarities perfectly integrated individual , opposites , making possible us integrated , e become god , essence , energies opposites christian problem apostle paul describes utmost precision romans 7 15 24 follows answer dilemma vs 25 mark
x mailer tmail version 1 17r c sessions dcs witsend tnet com organization nobody really subject thou shalt kill ever applied bible \? distribution world lines 15 crcnis1 unl edu , e p unl edu \( edgar pearlstein \) wrote places bible commandment thou shalt kill specifically applied \? , someone refrained killing remembered commandment , excellent reason commandment aside , please note literary tradition strong narrative , light dialog , virtually nonexistent w r introspection c sessions speaking note new network address dcs witsend tnet com author \( everything else ! \) tmail \( dos mail news shell \)
decay cbnewsj cb att com \( dean kaflowitz \) subject spreading christianity \( christian extremist kills doctor \) organization distribution na lines 40 article andrew cmu edu , david r sacco dsav andrew cmu edu writes snide , think christianity must convenient religion , suitable occassion since seems one take way one wants go follow whichever bits one pleases reinterpret bits n't match one 's desires , fact , convenient , capable believing god , might consider going brand christianity difficulty left , course , picking sect join many yes , christianity convenient following teachings jesus christ ten commandments convenient trying love hateful world convenient turning cheek convenient convenient burdensome times last remark contradiction , 'll let pass addressing notion great commission , deleted order provide us dull little thank , bing crosby go right back sleep daddy tuck later oh , convenient bible must michael griffin , convenient christianity well , 'll skip bit murdering people loving sinner hating sin stuff concentrate part says someone something wrong , shoot back several times tries away crutches 'll leave convert die program missionaries military escorts americas nadja explain knows much must awfully convenient , way , offer done , david , rather addressing arguments dean kaflowitz
caldwell facman ohsu edu \( larry caldwell \) subject sunday ! day lord ! organization oregon health sciences university lines 14 nntp posting host facman pharvey quack kfu com \( paul harvey \) writes dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu \( darius lecointe \) writes exactly sunday worship honor sun , son god thing , n't \? 's pronounced \? heavenly beings resurrected \? moon \? would lunacy , least sunday worshiper heard sabbath originally determined phases moon , elements moon worship early stuff , egyptian nature larry caldwell caldwell ohsu edu compuserve , 2273 oregon health sciences university \( 503 \) 494 2232
ad354 freenet carleton ca \( james owens \) subject 666 , number beast , viewer discretion advised ! reply ad354 freenet carleton ca \( james owens \) organization national capital freenet lines 13 un resolution 666 guarantees humanitarian aid get gulf war war \? aid getting , still trying smoke saddam \? middle east \? talking religious war \? ranting \? james owens ad354 freenet carleton ca ottawa , ontario , canada
lance wolves durham nc us \( lance brown \) subject religion homosexuality distribution usa organization wolves den unix lines 20 x md4 signature article mailer cc fsu edu dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu \( darius lecointe \) writes lfoard hopper virginia edu \( lawrence c foard \) writes unlike adulterers homosexuals hurt one sex sex homosexual whose family accept decision hurt \( emotionally \) \? good question n't nice concise answer , though child whose parents crushed emotionally starts something greatly dislike kind harm , probably caused thing desire child true self important , true burying truth within order maintain peace family \? hard question , good answer lance
af664 yfn ysu edu \( frank decenso , jr \) subject biblical contradictions answered \( judas \) organization youngstown state youngstown free net lines 591 nntp posting host yfn ysu edu posted several days ago dave butler may missed usenet board changed little case missed , dave butler writes daveb pogo wv tek com \( dave butler \) newsgroups talk religion misc subject new biblical contradictions answered \( judas \) date thu apr 1 20 52 11 1993 basically restrict post showing type evidence mr decenso presented , answering two questions \( couple spurious insults false claims \) reply k db way mr decenso , really looked index bauer arndt gingrich greek lexicon would found word acts lot kleros , chorion stated mr archer , nowhere large discussion kleros done theological dictionary new testament bromley , meaning burial plot discussed discusses forms kleros \( eg kleros , , etc \) , various meanings kleros \( eg plot land , inheritance \) , mentions nothing chorion burial plot \( surprise \? \) thus would seem good thing dumped archer reference db later corrected daveb pogo wv tek com \( dave butler \) newsgroups talk religion misc subject new biblical contradictions answered \( judas \) date fri apr 2 02 32 11 1993 owe group apology habit check articles submission errors last article stated \( way mr decenso , really looked index bauer arndt gingrich greek lexicon would found word acts lot kleros , chorion stated mr archer , nowhere large discussion kleros done theological dictionary new testament bromley , meaning burial plot discussed discusses forms kleros \( eg kleros , , etc \) , various meanings kleros \( eg plot land , inheritance \) , mentions nothing chorion burial plot \( surprise \? \) thus would seem good thing dumped archer reference \) wrong admit handle greek grammar , thus confused kleros , second last word acts 1 17 plot land discussed actuality chorion , last word acts 1 18 unfortunately greek dictionary discuss chorion cannot report nuances word n't know someone else would caught , though sure someone would able , aversion mistakes , especially someone else might use mistake prove point reply vary noble dave n't want go x number sources show wrong \( although researching chorion little \) db course reference mr decenso given bullinger bullinger uses ridiculous exegisis accused mr decenso actually believing bullinger , replied misquoted maintain find exegesis convincing \? oh dear reply misquotes astounding , dave read beginning part response see really said posting article actually mr decenso , said benefit argument , caused bullinger 's exegisis realize would find garbage beneficial , unless convinced reply thank correcting points db mr decenso also replied dave , necessarily views bullinger 's discuss land issue later posts , i'm sure i'm responding one directed bullinger 's views 's enjoyable thus apologize thinking even mr decenso could find convincing specify parts bullinger finds convincing quit hiding behind disingenuous mask bullinger believed , necessarily believe mr decenso \? find exegisis convincing \? \) reply one purposes debating alleged contradictions others many different views possible raised various bible scholars students alike present views , clearly distinguish db course without archer bullinger find mr decenso presented greek exegisis , mr decenso made big thing referring back actual greek thus find demand part quality greek exegisis hypocritical requirement reply good point declaring passages contradictory , produced superficial observations dug deeper i'm glad begun post begin greek studies passages depth thought necessary , well db would appropriate look mr decenso actually used evidence know claims standard , stated often enough \( \) text \( b \) parallel passages \( c \) pertinent scriptures \( \) historical context \( e \) historical content \( f \) pertinent historical info \( g \) cultural context \( h \) cultural content \( \) pertinent cultural info \( j \) grammatical construction \( k \) hebrew greek word studies \( l \) etc actual standards used , simply empty hyperbole let 's see , used \( \) , since trying reconcile passages , see also used \( b \) hand presented use \( \) historical context \( e \) historical content \( f \) pertinent historical info \( g \) cultural context \( h \) cultural content \( \) pertinent cultural info \( j \) grammatical construction even \( k \) hebrew greek word studies remember , archer bullinger n't count thus find vaunted criteria exegisis empty reply question find criteria important \? , plan starting use best ability , continue present shallow observations \( n't mean bad way \) point debates , found necessary present total exegetical analysis passages , since seem keep beating around bush getting core verses believe necessary use many criteria refute arguments judas acts matthew , best point use several criteria , since desire hope also greatly enhance study passages db thing actually used , beyond passage , passage thus mr decenso honest note list red herring real criteria seems \( \) text \( b \) parallel passages reply reason simple passages claim passages contradict one another see passages contradicting one another \( 1 \) may well complimentary , many scholarly sources mention \( 2 \) matthew may presenting judas' death , claim 'll look defense later also , reward iniquity acts passage may 30 pieces silver matthew 's passages \( although valiant attempt later stating believe \) beginning stages debates , laying scriptural groundwork , expanded upon deeper exegesis db course reason see drastically reinterpret passage done judas' death , make agree another passage could considered correct reply one reasons given different exegetical view passages seem think majority scholarship wrong concluding passages complimentary however , see problem tony rose 's explanation judas' death would explain judas hanging matthew 27 5 falling headlong burst open question manner judas died one constantly confronted travels many people point apparent discrepancy two accounts obvious , error gone far say idea inerrant bible destroyed contradictory accounts however , case matthew relates judas hanged , peter tells us fell crushed impact two statements indeed different , necessarily contradict \? matthew say judas fall neither peter say judas hang matter one person calling something black person calling white accounts true supplementary possible reconstruction would judas hanged tree edge overlooked valley hinnom hung time , limb tree snapped rope gave way judas fell , body process fall could death either would fit explanation possibility entirely natural terrain valley hinnom examined bottom valley , see rocky 25 40 feet height almost perpendicular still trees around ledges rocky pavement bottom therefore , easy conclude judas struck one jagged rocks way , tearing body open important remember told long judas remained hanging tree advanced decomposition body fall louis relates story man determined kill individual placed high window pointed pistol head pulled trigger window time hand , person could say man took life shooting , another could rightly contend committed suicide jumping form tall building case , true , true case matthew 's peter 's accounts death judas merely situation different perspectives event reason rejecting , believe , attempt discredit inerrancy n't related impossible highly unlikely 's said earlier post db quoting tony rose still trees around ledges rocky pavement bottom therefore , easy conclude judas struck one jagged rocks way , tearing body open important remember told long judas remained hanging tree advanced decomposition body fall added text version heavy , assuming truly opposed tactics , find credible seem find tony rose 's satisfactory , clearly rejecting david joslin 's , discredit tony 's explanation based deem heavy passages n't addressed feel way say 's vain attempt reconcile contradiction , n't tell n't happen , shown reject possibility questions matthew lying luke lying \? lying \? either misinformed \? think alleged contradiction \? think ever told us believe respect db present though , mr decenso asks two questions \( 1 \) claim acts matthew contradict one another representing judas' death ask provide evidence matthew stated judas died hanging \( 2 \) claim 30 pieces silver matthew judas threw temple chief priests used , reward iniquity acts pictures judas way purchasing field therefore contradiction prove 30 pieces silver reward iniquity one actually find question \( 1 \) rather stupid request , answer restricts two points first would point hanging efficient manner ending life fact bit fluke someone survives hanging \( except fantasy cowboy movies \) , even usually referred attempted hanging reply work agency child abuse neglect today , got call child attempted suicide hanging mother crack failed attempt child 's psych ward local hospital hanging attempts always successful assume hangings successful , one also begging question , may quote last night , listening bible answer man broadcast , christian research institute 's show , one scholars used several terms use familiar man bam show teaches comparative religion logic interesting db prevalent , say man hung synonymous stating killed reply important times , 'll see ot passage 'll mention hanging always outcome \? matthew , source judas hanging , state judas died result \? say 's synonymous means meaning boy \( age 14 \) hung lived one probably thousands documented cases discover db alone thought fact , since mr decenso respects christian scholarly \( including greek scholars \) opinion , research reply thank , dave db interestingly , one christian references read , interpreted hanging anything fatal suicide reply , mine 's ok use christian sources back points \? tony 's position value even consider valid possibility \? also , possible sources read may wrong , lying , deceived parts books \? , , done archer , toss side value anything say , including interpretation hanging judas \? sure would find errors maybe even deception sources also noted interpreted hanging meaning died although possibly true , find text \? remember , 's first criteria must examine db included biblical knowledge commentary woodward reply 's good source commentary info inerrant db interpreters volume commentary bible one volume bible commentary j r word meanings testament ralph earl abingdon bible commentary published abingdon bible commentary william neal \( actually could presented many well \) reply appreciate research , dave maybe getting somewhere approach alleged contradictions depth study db case , references specifically describe interpretation matt 27 5 successful , suicide thus conclude greek word \( ie hang oneself \) translated successful hanging reply , mine ca n't conclude , although , tony says , highly probable outcome matthew state death result greek word matthew 27 5 's occurrence new testament septuagint \( greek translation ot used time jesus \) , 's used 2 samuel 17 23 saw advice followed , saddled donkey , arose went home house , city put household order , hanged , died buried father 's tomb notice stated hanged gr sept , , explicitly adds , died doubt result matthew , explicitly told judas died also , nothing greek suggest success failure simply means hang oneself db mr decenso , welcome disagree show reputable christian scholars insist hanging successful reply , mine reputable \? mean ones never \? far insisting hanging unsuccessful , ca n't done , even said earlier post although still agree tony 's exegesis probable explanation regarding judas' death \( taking account several criteria \) , 've recently noticed new things matthew mat 27 5 8 threw pieces silver temple departed , went hanged chief priests took silver pieces said , lawful put treasury , price blood consulted together bought potter 's field , bury strangers therefore field called field blood day first , notice text say judas died result hanging says went hanged luke however , acts , tells us falling headlong , burst open middle gushed pretty clear indication \( along details given acts peter 's speech , need pick new apostle , etc \) least judas' fall , dead whole concept matthew luke recount judas' death highly probable , clear cut also wrote reply , dave , say recently noticed let 's look passage matthew mat 27 4 saying , sinned betraying innocent blood said , us \? see ! mat 27 5 threw pieces silver temple departed , went hanged mat 27 6 chief priests took silver pieces said , lawful put treasury , price blood mat 27 7 consulted together bought potter 's field , bury strangers mat 27 8 therefore field called field blood day notice verse 5 went hanged matthew say judas died , \? assume died result hanging \? acts say \? act 1 18 \( man purchased field wages iniquity falling headlong , burst open middle gushed act 1 20 written book psalms 'let dwelling place desolate , let one live it' , 'let another take office ' may graphic explanation judas' death , line reasoning contradiction myth two accounts judas' death matthew n't necessarily explain judas died say judas hanged , n't specifically say judas died hanging incident however , acts seems show us graphic demise therefore , contradiction matthew acts judas' reply know matthew hang acts probably records death although 's possible plausible fell hanging hit rocks , thereby bursting open , longer assume case therefore , contradiction matthew say judas died result hanging , \? scholars believe probably , \? quoted show highly regard explanations , looking texts initially , ca n't assume judas died , however , highly probable db way , agree judas died hanging , books different ways dealing contradiction discussing one simply ignored entirely simply referred back matthew 's version correct version matt acts biblical knowledge commentary suggested hypotheses judas hung , belly exploded \( n't explain headlong fall \) , branch rope broke , fell death gut gushed \( n't explain hanging man , would fall headlong rather feet first \) reply outcome fall dependent upon many factors high person suspended fall , tree branches may fall , steep rocky surfaces victim fell upon , thus possibly rolling bouncing several rocks , etc superficial examination acts passage matthew passage , given lot info geographical specifics , tony quoted post gave us possible reconstruction would judas hanged tree edge overlooked valley hinnom hung time , limb tree snapped rope gave way judas fell , body process fall could death either would fit explanation possibility entirely natural terrain valley hinnom examined bottom valley , see rocky 25 40 feet height almost perpendicular still trees around ledges rocky pavement bottom therefore , easy conclude judas struck one jagged rocks way , tearing body open db truthfully , see comforting matthew confusing source potter 's field prophesy , hand author correct matthew make confusion course biblical inerrantist claim every word bible guaranteed true god , thereby add one contradiction death judas \( ie prophesy potter 's field came \) reply please , done study death , remind discuss db second question mr decenso , ask could sure money judas purchased land , indeed betrayal , rather source would point acts , specifically mention reward iniquity acts 1 18 , also specifically mentions act iniquity talking \( ie acts 1 16 concerning judas guide arrested jesus \) would point bible describes act iniquity , immediately discusses reward iniquity , would rather inane suggest action iniquity one discussed reply dave , getting somewhere , n't ! act 1 15 days peter stood midst disciples \( altogether number names hundred twenty \) , said , act 1 16 men brethren , scripture fulfilled , holy spirit spoke mouth david concerning judas , became guide arrested jesus act 1 17 numbered us obtained part ministry act 1 18 \( man purchased field wages iniquity falling headlong , burst open middle gushed act 1 19 became known dwelling jerusalem field called language , , , field blood \) act 1 20 written book psalms 'let dwelling place desolate , let one live it' , 'let another take office ' notice verse 16 , word iniquity used rather , states judas became guide arrested jesus writer stop vs 17 , numbered us obtained part ministry part judas play ministry \? joh 12 6 said , cared poor , thief , money box used take put joh 13 29 thought , judas money box , jesus said , buy things need feast , give something poor , know part judas played treasurer , per se right peter stated judas played part ministry \( treasurer , according john \) , luke adds parenthetical explanation wages iniquity money put ministry , stolen judas purchase field believe better exegetical explanation wages iniquity think , dave \? db since given clear answers \( even references \) , perhaps could unequivocally state type inerrantist \( instead asking type think , mr joslin \) reply gladly admit complete inerrantist , although big problem limited inerrancy view frank one wished contend , could answer one time thousand job 9 3
decay cbnewsj cb att com \( dean kaflowitz \) subject spreading christianity \( christian extremist kills doctor \) organization distribution na lines 29 article mailer cc fsu edu , dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu \( darius lecointe \) writes david r sacco dsav andrew cmu edu writes snide , think christianity must convenient religion , suitable occassion since seems one take way one wants go follow whichever bits one pleases reinterpret bits n't match one 's desires , fact , convenient , capable believing god , might consider going brand christianity difficulty left , course , picking sect join many dean kaflowitz yes , christianity convenient following teachings jesus christ ten commandments convenient trying love hateful world convenient turning cheek convenient convenient burdensome times christians take 10 discount ten commandments sunday cannot substituted sabbath make 20 see poll recently religious adultery \? newsgroup alt atheism place \? dean kaflowitz
daveb pogo wv tek com \( dave butler \) subject new biblical contradictions answered \( judas \) organization tektronix , inc , wilsonville , lines 82 produced error last week chorion \( way mr decenso , really looked index bauer arndt gingrich greek lexicon would found word acts lot kleros , chorion stated mr archer , nowhere large discussion kleros done theological dictionary new testament bromley , meaning burial plot discussed discusses forms kleros \( eg kleros , , etc \) , various meanings kleros \( eg plot land , inheritance \) , mentions nothing chorion burial plot \( surprise \? \) thus would seem good thing dumped archer reference \) wrong admit handle greek grammar , thus confused kleros , second last word acts 1 17 plot land discussed actuality chorion , last word acts 1 18 unfortunately greek dictionary discuss chorion cannot report nuances word abhor publishing trash \( abhor even others , since present authority subject , feel dishonest , though openly admit ignorance incompetence example \) thus felt honor bound better set research specifically word first noted greek grammar tough first assumed \( nontrivial means , still competent , opaque thought \) turns index bauer arndt gingrich greek lexicon renders verse order , word within verse put greek alphabetical order thus meaning verse decipherable , syntax far clear hand , greek english bible makes things lot yes , word field acts 1 18 indeed chorion 've checked several greek english greek english lexicon new testament , robinson 's greek english lexicon new testament greek english lexicon new testament , grimm word study concordance , greek english lexicon new testament early christian writings , bauer arndt gingrich new analytical greek lexicon , case meaning word chorion given variously space , place , region , district , field , area , country place , land , farm , estate , bit , similar meanings nowhere books mention anything grave books go great detail , would surprised find books inadequate mr archer competent scholar greek think likely mr archer 's investigations contradictions , friend said , lacking substance , thus archer shown worthless expert witness \( way mr decenso , would presented results matter , even found support mr archer 's contentions \) way , among , \( eg robinson 's \) definition , word used matthew 27 describe field bought word defined field country chorion specifically noted synonym significant , evidence silly bullinger 's exegisis , stated word field matthew \( ie \) different word field acts \( ie chorion \) , thus must talking two different fields \( course already admit stupid bullinger 's exegisis , small drives point home \) , unless mr decenso show compelling reasons believe otherwise \( eg reputable scholar reputable references \) , consider particular issue closed see mr decenso , go answer questions denials peter , day crucifixion , tyre , fact author matthew quoted wrong prophet discussing potter 's field later , dave butler precise knowledge true knowledge , teach exactly , teach henry ward american clergyman recorded george
daveb pogo wv tek com \( dave butler \) subject new biblical contradictions still answered \( judas \) organization tektronix , inc , wilsonville , lines 180 mr decenso , spite requiring scholarly opinion hanging judas , rejects scholarly opinion scholars scholars opinion subject know matthew hang acts probably records death although 's possible plausible fell hanging hit rocks , thereby bursting open , longer assume case therefore , contradiction matthew say judas died result hanging , \? scholars believe , \? quoted show highly regard explanations , looking texts initially , ca n't assume judas died , however , highly probable also , nothing greek suggest success failure simply means hang oneself actually , research greek word apacgw , find denote success scholars indeed excellent reason assume suicide successful pointed , recently checked several greek english lexicon new testament , robinson 's greek english lexicon new testament greek english lexicon new testament , grimm word study concordance , greek english lexicon new testament early christian writings , bauer arndt gingrich new analytical greek lexicon , couple simply stated hanged oneself , couple explicit stated apacgw means specifically kill hanging couple also noted meaning one root words apacgw strangle , throttle choke \( pretty much invalidates guy suggested david joslin judas hung upside \) one best references though , robinson 's greek english lexicon new testament , stated translation , gave root words , literal translation , related greek words use roots , also presented specific examples word greek literature \( give context \) word two root words strangle root , root word means literally away root words included words denote transition mean transition place \( eg greek word means send message \) also denote change state specifically change life death robinson specifically makes comparison word , means kill literal meaning word apacgw means throttle , strangle put way , implicitly denotes change life state \( ie away life , death \) word apacgw mean hang , specifically denotes death well thus robinson quite specific state means hang oneself , end one 's life hanging notes use apacgw homers 19 230 denote context presents example apacgw used explicitly mean suicide hanging since perfectly good word , without added death , insist bible written god , every word correct , stuck complete meaning apacgw \( ie since word apacgw used , death denoted result \) way , note mr decenso also presents example apacgw septuagint \( greek translation ot used time jesus \) , 's used 2 samuel 17 23 saw advice followed , saddled donkey , arose went home house , city put household order , hanged , died buried father 's tomb notice stated hanged gr sept , , explicitly adds , died doubt result matthew , explicitly told judas died note mr decenso , say , septuagint translation hebrew greek , shown original meaning hebrew \( ie hebrew say died \) , thus whether simply echoed greek also pointed , regardless added died , correct translation would still apacgw , man indeed die \( redundant , correct \) , evidence septuagint repeatedly rewritten \( included versions contradicted \) , editing even necessarily executed greeks thus sure use septuagint stands , paragon ancient greek , really need prove point mr decenso , example , ancient greek , someone committing apacgw surviving otherwise would see simply making worthless assertions without corresponding evidence would note mr decenso , everytime go way research one apparently contrived exegisis , pretty much find false thus , think going add text , something source clearly says , better explicit greek historical source justify way , mr rose 's statement trees around potter 's field still trees around ledges rocky pavement bottom unless mr rose show trees two thousand years old , 2000 year old , 2 thousand year old description area mentions trees , inappropriate assert present placement trees prove location trees two thousand years ago \( , things change \) argument , ie money judas used 30 silvers second question mr decenso , ask could sure money judas purchased land , indeed betrayal , rather source would point acts , specifically mention reward iniquity acts 1 18 , also specifically mentions act iniquity talking \( ie acts 1 16 concerning judas guide arrested jesus \) would point bible describes act iniquity , immediately discusses reward iniquity , would rather inane suggest action iniquity one discussed notice verse 16 , word iniquity used rather , states judas became guide arrested jesus writer stop vs 17 , numbered us obtained part ministry part judas play ministry \? true , peter \( author acts \) specifically call judas' betrayal iniquity , matter , neither john specifically call judas' actions iniquity either john 13 29 say judas took money box , rather said thought , judas money box , jesus telling buy need feast give something poor , receiving immediately went , night note said judas left , say took money box thus see explanation still seems would choose unproven iniquity , mentioned another author , different book , written different time , iniquity explicitly mentioned author acts find forced contrived course particular argument becomes moot , since seen evidence apacgw means suicide see , since judas' hanging successful , could spent money mentioned john 13 29 , matthew mark explicitly say betrayal high holy day \( ie passover \) , thus could spent money killing next day thus money bought field blood would 30 pieces silver \( course got 30 pieces silver night well , thus could n't spent either oh dear , believe house cards comming \) maybe point , discuss whether jesus crucified friday saturday part argument judas way , prophesy potter 's field came \( ie mention matthew \) , say please , done study death , remind discuss reminding discuss 's part verse discussing , wish would quit issues later , dave butler wise man proportions belief evidence david , philosopher inquiry concerning human understanding ps would note , stating bible possibly inerrant stating inerrant since , admission , presenting merely possible \( course n't rate highly \) , best say bible possibly inerrant , inerrant
subject imaginary friends info experiences bnr co uk \( patrick \) organization bnr europe , new , london nntp posting host bnr co uk lines 21 article 1993apr2 mnemosyne cs du edu nyx cs du edu \( ditto \) writes thread anyone ever seen drop dead fred \? \? movie seems imaginary friend theme rather well loved movie , imaginary friend kid back great memories seriously , chance , see drop dead fred 'll make ya think especially end blessings ! kim patrick bnr co uk ! mcsun ! ukc ! ! northern , rd south , london phone 44 81 945 44 81 945 4000 oh , flash , love 've got 14 hours save universe
jmeritt mental mitre org subject god 's promise peace organization utexas mail news gateway lines 6 nntp posting host cs utexas edu 145 9 lord good tender works jer 13 14 dash one another , even fa sons together , saith lord pity , spare , mercy , destroy
jmeritt mental mitre org subject god 's promise righteous organization utexas mail news gateway lines 3 nntp posting host cs utexas edu ps 92 12 righteous shall flourish like palm tree isa 57 1 righteous , man heart
dan ingres com \( rose arose \) subject christian extremist kills doctor organization representing views x newsreader tin 1 1 pl3 distribution usa lines 97 regard sdd hp com \( regard \) writes article 1993mar30 pony ingres com dan ingres com \( rose arose \) writes seriously , though , griffen n't save lives children , destroy life man , superficial levels , 's scum almost agree , griffen scum scum guilt freedom choose anything griffen god make scum made griffen made precious person person chose wrong goes dr gunn examine closely , griffen would preferred children born yet birth , griffen assistance offer \? griffen intend support , educate , raise useful citizens \? intent whatsoever help children birth \? 's real problem americans become insensitive needs others completely wrapped cannot see straight think clearly enough make even slightest obvious moral decisions based reality man woman care child , considered respectable decent man anyone man fled responsibility , behaved like lazy coward , turned away responsibility wife child however , woman decides kill unborn child release burden , thought way man , woman suffers child free grow live happy normal life woman , child killed , man choice , man sometimes suffers badly wishes could trade places child ths root whole problem selfishness arrogance says , feelings desires supreme well worth come , substance hell made 's reason loving god throw selfish people devil demons eternity let one us unrepentant heaven , 'll ruin first chance get , n't really know answer questions , 've got real good guess , 's probably right would n't call , either move right direction , n't see responsibility kill get sight media backs us completely real responsibility sell responsibility sells marketplace enough make us feel responsible without showing anything might show us true irresponsibility want feel like good people , want nothing good people give freedom say i'm good , rest world burn rape kill children throw parents places poor old folks rot 're dead 'll hate brother sister wish 'll cheat wife husband screw government , screws , n't talk giving church church people bunch money grubbing hypocrites , i'm good person least admit least love know greatest love world man lay life brother sounds christian root , substance hell made 've become self , society longer responsible children , parents , families , government , god root behind justification every evil , every corruption government , every slanderous remark , every lie , every murder society cannot continue live like long destroy soon , perhaps end , biggest blessing world hope see people see much evil trying turn situation around \? deplore horrible crime child murder want prevention , merely punishment must reach root evil practiced whose souls revolt dreadful deed mater motive , love ease , desire save suffering unborn innocent , woman awfully guilty commits deed oh ! thrice guilty drove desperation impelled crime susan b anthony , revolution july 8 , 1869
plk af mil \( ninja gourmet \) subject scarlet horse babylon \( daemons \) organization university new mexico , albuquerque , nm lines 20 distribution world nntp posting host plk af mil keywords dead horse , horse babylon article lynx unm edu , leo unm edu \( ron \) writes easy 667 neighbor beast \( 666 \) beast lives end de sac r noticed dead horse keywords line famous scarlet horse babylon beast \( 's 666 \) rides wonderful manuscripts , fear announcement old girl dead may premature bet 20 place 6th race downs last sunday , slid bad fifth dead comatose \( like god way , suppose \) ninja gourmet fight food jim opinions exist plk af mil called albuquerque , nm opinions
skinner csrd uiuc edu \( gregg skinner \) subject language agreement reply g skinner uiuc edu organization uiuc center supercomputing research development lines 16 m23364 mwunix mitre org \( james meritt \) writes mr meritt , please state explicitly inductive argument leads conclude mr tice thinks ok take biblical quotes context r articles also , please explain rely inductive reasoning \( implicit uncertainty \) determining mr tice 's opinions man clearly available questioning finally , please indicate whether agree \( yes \) following statement word agree phrase disagree identical meaning
king ctron com \( john e king \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality oxymoronic \? organization cabletron systems inc lines 16 nntp posting host saturn ctron com andrew houghton andrew cmu edu andrew houghton writes i'm still waiting hear good response christian type christ 's word \( quoted paul \) reconciled current christian beliefs \? almost one third world 's population claim christian similarity beliefs lifestyle first century model purely coincidental luke 18 8 states , nevertheless , son man returns , really find faith earth \? jack
tk dcs ed ac uk \( tommy kelly \) subject objective values scientific accuracy \( 2000 years , say christian morality \) reply tk dcs ed ac uk \( tommy kelly \) organization laboratory foundations computer science , edinburgh u lines 54 frank , tried mail bounced fast moving scope , n't know group three subscribed apologies regular folks article 1qjahh mrs horus ap mchp sni de frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes science \( real world \) basis values , way round , would wish must using mean something different way see used normally certainly using like equate real world science recognition patterns perceptions universe making qualitative quantitative predictions concerning perceptions nothing values far see values well value would rather would experience rather , objective values set values believes applicable everyone thing objective value , science objectively said useful kick head n't agree science useful insofar predictions mentioned accurate insofar think effect perceptions time lapse \( without input universe \) versus perceptions actually turn values whether like \( sense word \) perceptions \) simple theories accurate predictions could objectively said useful set tarot cards n't see science period tarot predictions useful accurate ca n't shown accurate science useful apparently accurate values objective otherwise beside point \? tommy
joslin pogo isp pitt edu \( david joslin \) subject food thought tyre organization intelligent systems program lines 113 king ctron com \( john e king \) writes exactly prophesy clearly implies people would still living area , token would never rebuilt obviously , people still would live houses , correct \? nets implies fishing village exactly become far cry original position stature looking 1 find roman times tyre sidon first place intellectual life period tyre seat christian bishop , eventually 14 church kind built tyre ca 314 tyre well known exports , wine , white marble , cloth tyre , along , provided outlets south arabian , indian even chinese trade tyre accomodate growing population following perpendicular , rather horizontal , line growth \( running land build \) tyre established colonies none sounds like small fishing village stretch imagination centuries later , , tyre flourishing buildings 5 6 stories period , tyre noted export sugar , , , old , crusades , tyre second flourishing city held franks \( lot , got tired writing \) 2 read following description modern lebanon major cities lebanon include tripoli , sidon , tyre , emphasis source also discusses impact lebanese civil war , israeli military actions \( 1978 , 1982 \) trading ports tyre sidon notes israel 's 1984 , tyre appeared enjoy revival local economy tyre insignificant little fishing village present , always called city \( , , major city \) \? show maps \? population figures cities lebanon given , tyre always one cities list \( even list dozen cities long \) \? 1 philip k , lebanon history earliest times present , ny , st , 1967 2 federal research division , library congress , lebanon country study , edited thomas , 1989 early 1980 's tyre 22 , 000 people far 've seen stated ranging 15 , 000 22 , 000 let 's assume latter one correct modern standards talking one horse town one horse town \? sounds like lot work one horse \( anyway , tyre connected roads mainland may even use cars days \) 1991 encyclopedia says pop \( 1982 est \) 23 , 000 references give figures 14 17 thousand range \( one atlas gives population tyre 60 , 000 source give comparatively high figures sidon beirut , also , doubt typo perhaps figures cities surrounding areas \) n't doubt population tyre last decades particular , 1982 israeli military action hurt tyre quite bit alex g fell 1200 's , believe times fall thinking \? egypt \( 250 bce \) \( 198 bce \) rome \( 63 bce \) rome fell various arab 1124 ce captured crusades muslims ce subsequently pillaged french , turks , british , today , lebanon thought talking times tyre destroyed n't , , apply tyre cities area \? sidon , example \? make case tyre singled \? well , recovered enough thriving commerce dye purple roman times correct , roman domination , majority created wealth prophesy hold true good deal autonomy 2 tyre ed rights autonomy antiochus 125 bc onward enjoy ed complete autonomy started large series coins , occasionally gold descriptions tyre romans n't seem fit characterization , either seems allowed flourish still think stretching try describe tyre nothing small fishing village josh mcdowell christian apologist whose standards scholarship quite low happens quote source quote \( nina , tyre ages , beirut , el publishers , 1969 \) sentence , fact defends fulfillment prophecy using argument using , argument n't seen print anywhere else , jumped conclusion quoting josh \( tried find book , n't listed books print tell \? descriptions much odds everything else 've read i'm curious know \) dj
rich bellacera amail amdahl com subject ex gay \? \( homosexuality fact fiction \) lines 152 return path amail amdahl com ! rich bellacera juts ccc amdahl com tony honestly believe believe good thing posting piece propaganda , believe people believe feel justified blatant persecution gay oriented people seen film called gay agenda along church found horrifying actually shown \( use create image one wants portray \) , rather familiar widely actively distributed many naive people actually believing garbage found within truth neither fully speak anyone calls themself gay , knowing many knowing testimonies witnessing thier faith life say report posted biased report , something obviously claimed gays well truth unless innately gay cannot know harm causing speak supports gay rights society support wild sex misrepresentations perpetrated christian fundamentalist extremists , know people sexual deviants report paints mistake removed homosexuality 's list mental illnesses , also mistake many christians long bring back list feel threatened gays , n't understand others following article concerning two popular ex gay min exodus international homosexuals anonymous founder ex gay support group chooses homo hetero robert \( gay oriented magazine advocate \) december 1985 , david caligiuri received one advocate 's homophobia awards prayer day keeps lust away citation director free indeed , national ex gay ministry , caligiuri singled offering gays lesbians way homosexual death style prayer 'd like give award back , caligiuri laughs , i'm longer deserve caligiuri 's eight year involvement national ex gay movement peaked founding phoenix chapter homosexuals anonymous \( ha \) well free indeed since abandoned says ex gay movement fruitless effort based deception 's reality , says , selling product , product lie headed national ministries like exodus international courage , organizations ex gay movement rely born christianity convince homosexuals usually young gay men coming shed sexuality suppressing sexual urges embracing christianity offer support people seeking leave sin homosexuality , explains bob davies , director exodus ventures 80 seeking abandon homo sexuality men anybody involved ex gay ministry misguided wasting time , says lisa , former redeemed lesbian worked caligiuri ha appeared raphael show organizations people spiritually emotionally wounded 's possible change identity behavior , says sex educator brian , author gay 's really impossible change orientation people longer calling gay , continue sex erotic feelings caligiuri says founded free indeed ominous week 1981 hell broke loose personal life days lover ended romance business partnership , caligiuri sexually assaulted man picked bar really drunk , recalls , went home guy tied raped left tied night , next morning raped caligiuri eventually freed attacker , returned home home shared ex lover another man , caligiuri recalls thought time , 'if gay , n't want way anymore caligiuri vowed could find way , would share discovery others organized contingent demonstrate phoenix 's gay pride parade june 1985 , months later free indeed held first public protest meeting promote gay civil rights ordinance , free indeed members loudly blasted gays , telling ther sinners headed hell free indeed began receiving hundred telephone calls week , thanks part deceptive listing local yellow pages listed lesbian gay alternative services , caligiuri says , people thought gay information people would call find local bars , 'd preach sins homo sexuality like typical movement , caligiuri says , adding , 'll anything reach people david used go radio say really stupid things , recalls peter kelly , counselor phoenix 's catholic aids program , like knew gay started wearing colors caligiuri 's family first found ministry saw raphael 's syndicated talk show 1985 relieved , recalls figured gay person family , better gay person caligiuri hardly reformed time appeared 's show , 'd started sex men men would call hotline tell thier latest sin sex pastor , sex father time unable risk going gay bars , might recognized numerous television appearances , caligiuri says used go bookstores get n't working bookstores , sleeping reformed homosexuals n't realize first , lot ha leaders sex one another , caligiuri says 'd go conferences cities , 'd paired hotel rooms everybody sleeping everybody else time appeared television show may 1988 , caligiuri anonymous sex couple times week show 's host asked ever acted temptation , answer lie caligiuri 's began take 's toll , however suffering fatigue syndrome candidiasis , yeast infection , led escape sect sick go church , explains time spent away people began feel like began remember used late 1991 , caligiuri turned free indeed phone lines local church closed ministry 's doors 'd convinced need world ex gay people , says today , caligiuri , 31 , studying alternative \( i'm interest ed belief systems n't judgemental \) , considering romance \( christian ! \) , searching new project devote feel compelled commit gay causes , says want eventually stop feeling guilty make damage may brought community end article caligiuri 's tory means unique read several articles former leaders founders ministries said similar th similar things left christianity , come realize god loves despite attitudes others , like chris glaser , director presbyterian lazarus project west hollywood presbyterian church actually working gay community bring christ encouraging real ethical values sexuality within sphere gay also , said talked become become close friends many attended groups love action others , either claimed reformed honest live lie , matter disappointed even encouraged marry way sealing new heterosexuality , eventually start hitting bars , bookstores , since usually activities night one night stands promiscuous behavior meant continuous sin committed relationship horrible trap church dumped backs truly gay oriented people , cent victims cases wives children marriages yet church insists two options willing allow gay people 1 \) heterosexuality 2 \) sad also , cases cannot suppress desires fear thier sanity mixed confusion church forces , may even opt surgical brain functions past drug common place becoming available literature threat coercive christianity toward gays , 's ex gays \? none others also great many fact based books written help people trapped confusion maury johnston 's gays grace , chris glaser 's come ! seriously recommend people seeking help persecution self acceptance thank
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject food thought tyre organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 34 article ctron news ctron com , king ctron com \( john e king \) wrote exactly prophesy clearly implies people would still living area , token would never rebuilt obviously , people still would live houses , correct \? nets implies fishing village exactly become far cry original position stature let 's see , alexander destroyed tyre , people move back , construct houses , people live still call tyre , considered rebuilt instead 's considered 'just people got together fishing needed houses' place far 've seen stated ranging 15 , 000 22 , 000 let 's assume latter one correct modern standards talking one horse town sigh , never born city \( home town 10 000 people \) consult city inform 's fishing village city \( \) founded 17 th century 1000 people lived , norms even bizarre dumb swedish queens founded cities along coast finland would like know paul thought worth mentioning small fishing place tyre acts , maybe keen fisherman wanted visit shores tyre \? \) cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
bskendig netcom com \( brian kendig \) subject 14 apr 93 god 's promise 1 john 1 7 organization starfleet headquarters san francisco lines 47 brian lpl arizona edu \( brian ceccarelli 602 621 9615 \) writes brian kendig light tainted blood innocent man showing brian kendig dark fundamental basic old testament concepts like lev 17 11 must foreign bad interested understanding bad prefer folly even shame lev 17 11 life flesh blood , given upon altar make atonement souls blood makes atonement soul old testament big eye eye business makes sense leviticus would support physical injury repay moral wrongdoing know sanctification 've taught sunday school , catechism class , theology classes even , still ca n't accept maybe i'm still understanding , maybe i'm understanding well bottom heart know punishment innocent man wrong 've tried repeatedly course several years accept , ca n't means ca n't accept premise god would allow , ignorance show us next \? guess 'll wait till tomorrow explain death jesus good thing , would glad hear , might even convert warned , however , 've heard common arguments , n't convince brian kendig je ne suis fait comme aucun bskendig netcom com de ceux que j'ai vus j'ose croire n'etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent meaning life si je ne vaux pas mieux , au moins je suis autre ends rousseau
ray netcom com \( ray fischer \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization netcom san jose , california lines 25 frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes plus questions relativists get het idea relativism better objectivism \? degree relativism accurate truth objectivism , provides power ability control events assuming , moment , morals relative , two relativists recognize neither lock absolute truth proceed negotiate workable compromise produces desired results assuming absolute morality , two disagreeing either wrong one right room compromise beleive absolute morals , must accept amoral everyone disagrees amoral given choice peaceful compromise endless contention , 'd say compromise seems better ray fischer convictions dangerous enemies truth ray netcom com lies friedrich nietzsche
rich bellacera amail amdahl com subject ex gays \? \( follow \) lines 53 return path amail amdahl com ! rich bellacera juts ccc amdahl com would like apologize typos previous post retrospect would also like quote another source douglas c 1991 book homosexuality therapy ineffective recently founders yet another prominent ex gay ministry , exodus international , denounced conversion therapy procedures ineffective michael gary cooper , exodus international lovers 13 years , involved organization 1976 1979 program described men ineffective one person healed stated program often exacerbated already prominent feelings guilt personal failure among many driven suicidal thoughts result failed therapy previous article quoted last posting advocate , june 30 , 1992 called ex ex gay robert personal thoughts great concerted effort major portion church control mandate change minority among ranks momentum behind spanish inquisition , required confession faith \( much torture \) , save souls would dispatch heaven death even later , bible used vigorously defend slavery , oppression african americans , even justification today 's scholars bit slick approach tool still , mostly means brainwashing mind control , convincing people see less god sees , maintaining hold felt thier mind conditioning complete sure , one physically forced stay therapy sheer social pressure enough many keep new found bondage self hate advocate oppression persecution gays facets civil life person judged , non contribution society live , high standard conformity imposed clue heart seek information gays groups accept please contact nearest chapter \( parents friends lesbians gays \) happy assist group people comprised gays , lesbians bisexuals , parents friends formed support group help understanding try talking parent gay son daughter learn first hand real life loving understanding god 's love understanding gay people less abundant thank pax
psyrobtw ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( robert weiss \) subject 15 apr 93 god 's promise john 1 12 organization university buffalo lines 8 news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host ubvmsb cc buffalo edu many received , gave power become sons god , even believe name john 1 12
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject food thought tyre organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 62 curious check many san jose mercury news mentioned tyre \( 1990 92 \) 's outcome research \( versions , copyright san jose mercury news \) bombings two largest cities southern lebanon killed 11 people wounded 80 others car bomb blew tyre , killing 10 people wounding 75 man killed five others seriously wounded explosion israeli navy patrol boat attacked sank rubber guerrilla boat southern lebanon early today , killing two men aboard , army command said said communique patrol boat opened fire rubber north tyre identifying hostile army said one israeli boat injured affiliation slain immediately known rival factions guerrilla group led terrorist abu nidal sunday tyre , lebanon , machine guns rocket propelled grenades , killing least four people wounding 15 , police said lebanon 's mainstream muslim militia said thursday uncovered network tunnels southern lebanese village said pro iranian held western hostages officials militia , amal , led local journalists like alleys showed two cells iron doors village , al , near tyre , ancient port city , 40 miles south beirut officials said certain u marine lt col william r higgins detained shortly seized gunmen road outside tyre february 1988 anyway , counted 20 articles 3 years reporting also found possible reason numbers inhabitants city defined seems tyre one places people flee extensive bombings , 's constant flow refugees entering leaving tyre \( articles mentioned thousands people entering leaving place \) counted 0 articles home town , , consider place fishing village \) cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
irfan davinci ece wisc edu \( irfan alan \) subject treatise miracles muhammad saw , part 1 organization univ wisconsin madison electrical computer engineering distribution usa lines 81 droplet vol 1 , 11 , part 1 r p l e vast ocean miraculous qur'an translations arabic turkish writings said , vol 1 , 11 , part 1 nineteenth letter \( treatise miracles muhammad saw \) \( saw peace blessings upon \) name \( allah \) , \( allah \) glorified ! nothing \( allah 's \) praise name allah , compassionate , merciful sent messenger guidance religion truth make supreme religion sufficient allah witness muhammad messenger allah , firm unbelievers merciful among see , seeking allah 's grace pleasure mark face sing torah 48 28 29 since nineteenth first words concerning mission muhammad \( saw \) prove prophethood decisive evidences , assign verification subject words supplement , merely show nineteen signs , flashes great truth first sign owner master universe everything knowledge , every affair wisdom , everything , treats everything knowingly , everything wisdom causes , purposes uses apparent us since one creates knows , surely one knows speak , since speak , surely speak consciousness , thought , speech since speak thought , surely speak humankind , whose make awareness comprehensive conscious beings since speak humankind , surely speak perfect mankind worthy address highest morality , qualified guide humanity certainly speak muhammad \( saw \) , , friend foe alike testify , highest character morality , obeyed one fifth humanity , whose spiritual rule half globe submitted , radiance whose light future mankind thirteen centuries , believers , luminous segment humanity , renew oath allegiance five times day , whose happiness peace pray , call allah 's blessings bear admiration love hearts certainly , speak muhammad \( saw \) , indeed done make messenger , indeed done make guide rest humanity , indeed done continued allah br irfan islam
david terminus ericsson se \( david bold \) subject question popular morality reply david terminus ericsson se distribution world organization camtec electronics \( ericsson \) , leicester , england lines 89 nntp posting host article murdoch acc virginia edu , pmy vivaldi acc virginia edu \( pete yadlowsky \) writes moral driver distinctions deleted case , driver evolve simply would probably manifestation infant moral code learnt yet \( ie object upon driver acts upon \) without manifestation , though , driver detected \? purposes seems exist moral coding begins actually , agree notion driver , except think 's moral pre \( super \) moral , mentioned earlier thread , primal sense connection , pre post natal umbilical awareness expressed partial , fragmented way \( forms , return \) language customs given culture , english expression , think , come call compare driver urge jealousy , urge object jealousy technically exist object apparent however , capacity jealous presumably still even though detectable description took three passes understand \( ! \) get gist agree think two definitions sit side side without much trouble , though n't attempted define reason behind moral driver \( hinted essence moral \) definition hints animals also capable similar morality similar social order easy animals possible misunderstood \? suggestion holds true area work must carried prevent moral deterioration society , kind work , exactly \? well , asked big question slight suspicion hoping would say something really contentious reply \( final question \) , wondering subscribed particular school psycho social thought rehabilitation , perhaps plan 'd interested hear p thoughts falls roughly line john stuart mill writings particular plan \( except bit personal ethics social work \) opinion \( worth \) authority moral must increased somehow , probably take several generations effective n't think list morals changed society significantly , though authority element may come authority figures roles models \( see eric berne analysis work klein references \) gives rise deterioration moral standards long term 've thoughts definitions 've thinking add moral character list definitions order get dynamic version moral nature \( ie moral code associated authorities \) suitable analogy might graphic system moral nature set frequencies chosen , moral character spectrum time conscience little difficult ca n't define reasoning person actions context moral nature conscience seems cut time often unwanted think conscience manifest decision made given time compromises one 's moral nature conscience fits freud 's \( plus moral driver \) urges freud 's id reasoning mentioned freud 's ego , suppose moral driver part id reason conscience cuts partially explained question provides activate moral driver \? think need time one 's ! david religion oh , sea \? , fishes cried , swam
david r sacco dsav andrew cmu edu subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization misc student , carnegie mellon , pittsburgh , pa lines 8 mg9 kyle eitech com nntp posting host po5 andrew cmu edu reply mg9 kyle eitech com tons mail , could move discussion alt religion \? many among us feel life joke \( bob dylan \) happy every day life would n't human , 'd game show host \( taken movie \) lecture \( lek \) process notes professor become notes student without passing minds either
system lakes trenton sc us \( kalki \) subject bhagavad gita 2 44 organization kalki 's infoline bbs , aiken , sc , usa lines 42 text 44 na material enjoyment attached things bewildered mind fixed determination devotional service lord controlled mind na never take place translation minds attached sense enjoyment material , bewildered things , determination devotional service supreme lord take place means mind '' vedic dictionary , , says , ``when mind fixed understanding self , said '' never possible persons interested material sense enjoyment , bewildered temporary things less condemned process material energy bhagavad gita books c n't forget chant hare krishna hare krishna , krishna krishna hare hare hare rama hare rama , rama rama hare hare kalki 's infoline bbs aiken , south carolina , usa \( system lakes trenton sc us \)
david terminus ericsson se \( david bold \) subject question popular morality reply david terminus ericsson se distribution world organization camtec electronics \( ericsson \) , leicester , england lines 77 nntp posting host article freenet carleton ca , ad354 freenet carleton ca \( james owens \) writes previous article , david terminus ericsson se \( david bold \) says n't mean rude , think 've got hold wrong end different stick david look posting see mean ! intent explaining jung thought could moral god overlooked main line thought seem saying , god unknowable , morality unknowable yep , 's pretty much i'm jew understand jewish way thinking however , jews believe covenant yhwh \( abraham moses , case \) establishes moral code follow mankind even jews could decide boundaries fall , though understand , sadducees believed torah required , whereas pharisees \( ancestors modern judaism \) believed torah available interpretation lead understanding required morality nuances \( talmud \) essence biblical morality interface man yhwh \( jew christian \) necessarily indicate anything yhwh outside relationship \( although one speculate \) first thing comes mind man supposed created image , argument committed whatever moral code follows part trying live image supposed live christ 's example , would hard pressed argue god say , kind guy trouble n't really know created image means 've heard number different opinions still come conclusion rather apple cart one wants base life script shaky foundation \( mix metaphors ! \) living christ 's example , know little jesus person recorded set narratives followers , small references historians revelation aside , one know christ second hand worse attempt debunk christianity \( although may seem way initially \) , point i`m trying make really bible interpret , interpretation humanity guess faith comes inherent , multiple moral codes absolute moral code , think theologically questionable may absolute moral code undoubtably multiple moral codes multiple moral codes may founded absolute moral code example , parent may tell child never swear , child may assume parent never swears simply parent told child wrong , parent may swear like trooper pub bar \( children \) wrongness child parent parent may feel inappropriate swear front children may quite happy swear front animals analogy quite hold water child knows type parent \( may parent later life \) get gist \? incidentally , young child considers directive absolute gets older \( see \) learns morality david religion oh , sea \? , fishes cried , swam
emarsh hernes sun eng sun com \( eric marsh \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization sun lines 63 nntp posting host hernes sun article 1qjahh mrs horus ap mchp sni de frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes article pww spac at1 59 rice edu pww spacsun rice edu \( peter walker \) writes article 1qie61 fkt horus ap mchp sni de , frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) wrote objective morality morality built objective values objective values come \? measure \? mediated interaction real world , \? scalar field \? science \( real world \) basis values , way round , would wish thing objective value , science objectively said useful kick head simple theories accurate predictions could objectively said useful set tarot cards like conclusions \? n't think changing meaning values perhaps time take look word value n 1 fair equivalent return something , goods service 2 monetary material worth 3 worth measured usefulness importance merit 4 principle , standard , quality considered inherently worthwhile desirable 5 precise meaning , word 6 assigned calculated numerical quantity 7 mus relative tone rest 8 relative darkness color 9 distinctive quality speech speech sound context moral system , definition four seems fit best terms scientific usage , definitions six eight might apply note definitions mean thing mind , say science basis values bit reach science basis observable fact even word value denote observable fact , rather standard measurement would conclude science basis values , statement fails fact , one concludes scientific set measurements \( values \) based systems derived observation , must follow scientific context , thing thing objective values back present nothing moral system anyhow word values used contexts mean relationship two contexts one argue objective values \( moral sense \) one must first start demonstrating morality objective considering meaning word objective doubt ever happen , back original question objective morality \? provide objective foundation morality good beginning frank o'dwyer 'i'm hatching that' odwyer sse ie hens , evelyn conlon eric
jmeritt mental mitre org \( jim meritt system admin \) subject invisible god ! organization utexas mail news gateway lines 14 nntp posting host cs utexas edu god seen take away hand , thou shalt see \( ex 33 23 \) lord spake moses face face , man friend \( ex 33 11 \) seen god face face , life preserved \( gen 32 30 \) god cannot seen man hath seen god time \( john 1 18 \) said , thou see face shall man see live \( ex 33 20 \) man hath seen see \( 1 tim 6 16 \) pick want !
m23364 mwunix mitre org \( james meritt \) subject kind , loving , merciful forgiving god ! nntp posting host mwunix mitre org organization mitre corporation , mclean va lines 41 article blue cis pitt edu joslin pogo isp pitt edu \( david joslin \) writes m23364 mwunix mitre org \( james meritt \) writes \( \) context must missed said promises god keep getting subjected could please explain wrong ok \? acknowledgement public hypocrisy neither , according , jim , way criticize one person taking quote context , without hypocrite , post response every person r takes quote context \? either ask assert \? telepathy work \? btw david i'm still waiting either public acknowledgement telepathy precognition \( witch \? \) retraction wait without whining \? pass time , maybe go back read portions article conveniently deleted reply 'll find answers nope particular realized example telepathy \? responding jim 's threat produce jim , still mystified telepathy \? maybe telepathy , capable determining emotional states jim , trying telepathy know trying \? ! \? ! \? jim , preparing precognition \? substantiate taken message id blue cis pitt edu
organization city university new york kevxu cunyvm bitnet subject catholic right pat robertson lines 49 roman catholic conservatives coming open line pat robertson ultra right wing christian coalition former secretary education william , roman catholic , stood beside christian coalition 's spokesman ralph reed march 3 conference washington purpose conference publish results christian coalition poll designed prove republican party would lose major support backed away family values '92 convention conservative catholics swung behind robertson 's organization political expertise , legal assistance high tech communications support catholic campaign american , designed catholic version moral majority , founded tom ms robertson since days freedom council 1985 worked presidential bid 1988 ms hired domino 's pizza , tom , 1989 manage , , catholic businessmen 's group membership limited catholics head corporations least 4 million annual revenues relying network wealthy contacts , little trouble forming funding catholic campaign campaign 's list national committee members includes u rep robert k , eagle forum , lovely pat buchanan rev richard j neuhaus also national committee keith , catholic heads pat robertson 's american center law justice another catholic , thomas patrick , senior counsel robertson 's , also active supporter catholic campaign board directors includes frank shakespeare , broadcasting exec former u ambassador pope , wall street executive frank lynch , former reagan official richard v allen , bishop rene corpus christi mary ellen , wife unsuccessful supreme court nominee robert winter 1992 issue campaign update organization 's quarterly newsletter , l martino , philadelphia business executive wrote separation church state false premise must finally cast aside replaced true meaning constitution oh yes , organization 's national advisor catholic politician cardinal john j o'connor new york jack carroll
simon dcs warwick ac uk \( simon clippingdale \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality nntp posting host nin organization department computer science , warwick university , england lines 29 article horus ap mchp sni de frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes recall , first entered matter response assertion simon clippingdale morality relative oops ! quite right got busy saved frank 's last post back , intending respond could , sort forgot 'll try soon anyone 's still interested , probably even 're therefore trying sell something \? n't think well , yes , maybe i'm trying people buy take opinions , thus causing said opinions spread time honoured memetic virus mode world veritable paradise , folks \? say , know makes sense frank o'dwyer 'i'm hatching that' odwyer sse ie hens , evelyn conlon cheers simon simon clippingdale simon dcs warwick ac uk department computer science tel \( 44 \) 203 523296 university warwick fax \( 44 \) 203 525714 coventry cv4 7al , u k
ekr kyle eitech com \( eric rescorla \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization lines 16 nntp posting host kyle eitech com article na4 horus ap mchp sni de frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes article kmr4 1571 po cwru edu kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) writes pushed back undefined meaning must define objective values really \? n't know objective value \? offered people u , collectively , 1 land america , would sound like good deal \? well , would depend much wanted us much wanted 1 , would n't \? ekr eric rescorla ekr eitech com would buy used code man \?
emarsh hernes sun eng sun com \( eric marsh \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization sun lines 27 nntp posting host hernes sun article ux1 cso uiuc edu ux1 cso uiuc edu \( student \) writes hmmmm define objective morality well , depends upon talk say means ca n't hair ears , others say means acceptable would say general principles objective morality would listed one two places ten commandments sayings jesus first depends whether trust bible , second depends whether think jesus god , whether think accurate copies nt gong ! take moment look wrote first defined objective morality qualified objective morality subjective justifications see error \? sorry , disqualified , please play mac eric
ekr kyle eitech com \( eric rescorla \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization lines 29 nntp posting host kyle eitech com article horus ap mchp sni de frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) writes article 1qie61 fkt horus ap mchp sni de , frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) wrote objective morality morality built objective values pushed objectivity realm objective values need explain well , well objective sub parts , objective atoms , quarks firstly , science basis values , way round keep saying think means think means perhaps explain think science 's basis values means reason people science value 's results mean science 's basis values des stops working stop privacy better explain objective atoms , get subjective values , go see ekr eric rescorla ekr eitech com would buy used code man \?
emarsh hernes sun eng sun com \( eric marsh \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization sun lines 14 nntp posting host hernes sun article ux1 cso uiuc edu ux1 cso uiuc edu \( student \) writes definition objective would absolute , fixed , rather subjective , varying changing lets see dictionary say objective adj 1 material object distinguished mental concept 2 actual existance 3 emotion personal prejudice b based observable phenomenon eric
joslin pogo isp pitt edu \( david joslin \) subject kind , loving , merciful forgiving god ! organization intelligent systems program lines 43 m23364 mwunix mitre org \( james meritt \) writes joslin pogo isp pitt edu \( david joslin \) writes m23364 mwunix mitre org \( james meritt \) writes \( \) context must missed said promises god keep getting subjected could please explain wrong ok \? acknowledgement public hypocrisy neither , according , jim , way criticize one person taking quote context , without hypocrite , post response every person r takes quote context \? either ask assert \? telepathy work \? \( 1 \) stephen said took quote context \( 2 \) noted stephen replied r article \( call \) took quote context \( 3 \) lack evidence x constitute evidence lack x \( common creationist error \) \( 4 \) fact stephen reply justify conclusion stephen condoned taking quotes context \( 5 \) asked stephen explain wrong ok , acknowledge hypocrite \( 6 \) choices give stephen assume condoned taking quotes context \( 7 \) assumed logical , sentence begins could please explain , intended follow sentence preceded \( 8 \) therefore , concluded believed \( 2 \) implied stephen condoned taking quotes context \( 9 \) 've already seen \( 2 \) imply \( 10 \) therefore , incorrect believe \( 2 \) implied stephen thought okay take quotes context , making error kind frequently made creationists better jim \? 's called argument disagree , explain argument sound \( admit assumption \( 7 \) may bit hasty \) agree , say yup dj yup jim 's e mailed response pointed , posted article , one arguments straw man argument , reminiscent frequent creationist ploy \( 3 22 93 \)
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject good jesus died \? organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 17 article 1993apr17 010734 organpipe uug arizona edu , brian lpl arizona edu \( brian ceccarelli 602 621 9615 \) wrote truth , sort magic spell truth understand , enjoy understanding i'm curious statement , known understanding amongst christian believers people n't understand christian doctrines enjoying state \? come background heavy christian teaching \( lutheran church \) , consider knowledgeable basic christianity time i'm proud things n't understand know point time ignorance bliss ! cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject clarification personal position organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 21 article c5muiw aqc mailer cc fsu edu , dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu \( darius lecointe \) wrote repeat position worshipping sunday never sin child attended services saturday sunday sda church pentecostal church across street might even go baptist church next week worship god every day , every christian even prove christians meet sunday \( ca n't \) never prove violation sabbath sin longer prove violation sunday sin cannot use sabbath commandment purpose online bible cd , n't cd rom system time , ca n't search famous cite jesus explicitly states n't want break existing \( jewish \) laws words technically speaking christians use saturday sunday holy day , want conform teachings jesus cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
mmm cup portal com \( mark robert thorson \) subject scientology \? \? \? organization portal system \( tm \) lines 8 need brief information scientology \( frank zappa would call \) anyone time send info ol' l ron b scientology would appreciated p inte rested propaganda 've taken liberty passing name address local org \( scientology office \) 'll contacting days also threw small contribution , 'd know 're serious \)
mccullou snake2 cs wisc edu \( mark mccullough \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization university wisconsin , madison computer sciences dept lines 19 article 30136 ursa bear com halat pooh bears \( jim halat \) writes atoms objective n't even real scientists call atom nothing mathematical model describes certain physical , observable properties surroundings subjective jim halat deserves framing really atoms n't even real tell , atoms seen electron microscopes atoms , \? imaginations \? evidence atoms real overwhelming , wo n't bother evidence moment mccullou whipple cs wisc edu never program drink beer 2 time n't work
ch981 cleveland freenet edu \( tony alicea \) subject rosicrucian order \( \) \? ! organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 22 reply ch981 cleveland freenet edu \( tony alicea \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu kent say 4 10 competing rosicrucian orders existing today , spin offs oto competing organizations 19th century france germany maybe write article please n't ! , spent time investigating organizations conceptual world view systems name three really competing rosicrucian orders probably spent time none spin offs opposite may case study harder , tony
subject lds rick 's reply isscck byuvm bitnet organization brigham young university lines 159 robert weiss \( psyrobtw ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \) writes rick anderson replied letter ra article acsu buffalo edu , ra psyrobtw ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( robert weiss \) says ra \( \) briefly , something mentioned passing refer differing interpretations create , say many christians may agree \? really irrelevant base faith many people think one way another , \? bottom line truth , regardless popularity opinions may irrelevant personal beliefs \( say bias \? \) , relevant many others 're right , bottom line truth , independant anyone else since proclaim truths self proclaimed appointee , may ask authority \? says bible \? bible say , , someone else , interprets whether scripture doctrine conforms particular liking disapproval \? excuse moi , line truths n't moved one bit persuade beliefs erroneous preachers truth net , struck self righteous member wrecking crew , positive message latter day saints whatsoever btw , entire discussion reminds lot things said jesus pharisees ye hypocrite \( \) ye preach lips , hearts far removed also , find rather strange trying persuade created eternally existent equivalent , say granted mormon belief ca n't grant conclusion expect point addressed order reply issue , address answer point raised , jump conclusion grant sophistry look 's talking jumping conclusions \? would n't , right \? address convictions , regardless whether come biblical scriptures supports points view , reject interpretations without consideration whatsoever bible states lucifer created bible states jesus creator contradiction lds belief jesus lucifer beautiful example disinformation deliberate misrepresentation lds doctrine former kgb would loved employ jesus lucifer , silly , know \( \) mormon belief children god literally nothing symbolic however , contradicts bible says bible teaches everyone child god correction may contradict would think bible says bible indeed teach children god sense belong follow god satan followers rebelled god , children \( followers redeemed \) god , n't mean created god , chose separate chose follow god plan salvation field world good seed children kingdom children wicked one \( matthew 13 38 \) \? illustrates nicely said children kingdom remained valiant testimony jesus \( shown works repentance , etc \) , children wicked one rebelled god lamb issue satan 's spirit offspring \( followed \) addressed verses copied bible purposefully obscured subject right non related scriptures \( lots nice scriptures deleted \( robert w copyrighted \) though \) ra told , life eternal , might know ra thee true god , jesus christ , thou hast sent ra \( john 17 3 \) life eternal know true god yet ra doctrines lds mentioned portray vastly ra different jesus , jesus cannot reconciled jesus ra bible far removed proclaim correction jesus indeed different jesus , reconciled jesus bible interpretation , concur , honestly could n't care less ra one true denies true according ra bible , eternal life dependent knowing true god , ra construct imagination single posting , 've seen constructs imagination pro lds mails combined read far news group first get lds facts straight dare preaching us true god , interpret according likes dislikes , whose image cannot reconcile know guess grandiose self image allow faiths , believing divinity jesus christ , different way fashion really matters , mission progress lds church go , boldly , mob opponent stop work progressing , visited every continent , swept every , sounded every ear really red herring n't address issue raised , rather , seeks obfuscate fact groups try read something bible , n't change bible teaches sigh bible teaches \? bible teaches according robert weiss co \? respect former , reject latter without feeling rejected jesus contrary way , respect interpretations bible , even grant christian \( following image \) , much christian \( following image heart \) \( \) replies instead hop issue bruce mcconkie whether views doctrine ' n't think matters mcconkie 's views canon issue mcconkie 's writings indicative mormon belief subject real issue indication rick may certainly issue , course , love use anything either mis represent ridicule lds church issue official doctrine obviously important mcconkie 's views controversial \( e g seven deadly heresies made heretic ! \) best , erroneous worst \( blacks receive priesthood dispensation \) respect someone made valuable contribution church , personally rely personal interpretations \( book mormon doctrine oftentimes referred mcconkie 's bible mormon circles \) mormon doctrine rather look official \( doctrinal \) sources , hugh nibley 's books ! \( last comment lds reference \) summarizing mcconkie wise man contributed undoubtedly far kingdom god , whose views means dogma accepted doctrine , clearly belongs personal interpretation speculation said , find mcconkie \( even biased speculative moments \) far thought provoking trash coming proverbial pen i'm somewhat appalled allowed sink low posting robert weiss psyrobtw ubvms cc buffalo edu casper c knies isscck byuvm bitnet brigham young university isscck vm byu edu ucs computer facilities
microsoft com \( russ paul jones \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization microsoft corporation lines 17 article 1993apr16 asl dl nec com duffy asl dl nec com \( joseph duffy \) writes one falsify origin theory \? example , forever existing universe abiogenesis strictly falsifiable \? way theory proven false examine theory makes , try observe n't , observe things theory predicts would n't happen , evidence theory theory ca n't modified incorporate new observations , say false example , people used believe earth created 10 , 000 years ago , evidence showed predictions theory true , abandoned russ paul jones microsoft com
mathew mantis co uk \( mathew \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality oxymoronic \? organization mantis consultants , cambridge uk lines 32 x newsreader rusnews v1 01 forgach noao edu \( suzanne forgach \) writes article fido asd sgi com , livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) western ethic , many children dying world \? majority world n't western good answer , n't simple awful lot starvation poverty world directly caused economic policies western countries , well diet typical instance , third world countries terrible malnutrition problems export produce fed cattle us , make tender steaks get money pay interest crippling bank loans encouraged take fund raising ethiopia truly bizarre idea instead , ought stop bleeding every penny 've got perhaps 's accurate say 's western ethic western evidence suggests long children dying third world , could n't give shit goes supposed pro life movement , could save far lives fighting third world debt fighting abortion hell , 're interested fetuses , could save fighting human rights china besides , suzanne 's answer implies non western countries lack ethic apart china , policy mandatory forced abortion tibet , n't believe case mathew
mathew mantis co uk \( mathew \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization mantis consultants , cambridge uk lines 31 x newsreader rusnews v1 01 frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes article fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes objective morality \? , children , person playing objective morality n't exist , show one game play anything objective medicine \? objective physics \? objective reality \? precisely 's objective medicine people get results alternative therapy , others respond traditional medicine 's objective physics einstein bohr told us 's objective reality lsd sufficient prove one wonders people ask questions understand term objective , anything consider useful fiction abstract ideal strive towards like ideal gas light string , n't actually exist talk things like , far wrong mathew
mathew mantis co uk \( mathew \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization mantis consultants , cambridge uk lines 12 x newsreader rusnews v1 01 frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes \( b \) neither christian theist , believe objective morality preference relativist soup well , two approaches take one ask objective morality , assuming 's secret ask think wrong relativism , correct misconceptions \) mathew
mathew mantis co uk \( mathew \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization mantis consultants , cambridge uk lines 19 x newsreader rusnews v1 01 frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes christian , however suspect flavours christianity hold \( \) objective morality exists \( b \) particular interpretation scripture revelation tv glimpse may disagree \( b \) says nothing truth falsehood \( \) actually , generally claim \( b \) particular interpretation scripture revelation objective morality two conflicting versions objective morality tell us something \( \) tells us least one fake objective morality exists next logical step deduce given religion 's objective morality could fake one caveat emptor mathew atheism anti virus software mind
kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization case western reserve university lines 20 nntp posting host b64635 student cwru edu article 1993apr17 scic intel com scic intel com \( seth j bradley \) writes simply says god , falsifiable unless god admits n't \) 'd cheat hillary john laws local gop reprehensitive extolling traditional family values
subject lds rick 's reply isscck byuvm bitnet organization brigham young university lines 159 robert weiss \( psyrobtw ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \) writes rick anderson replied letter ra article acsu buffalo edu , ra psyrobtw ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( robert weiss \) says ra \( \) briefly , something mentioned passing refer differing interpretations create , say many christians may agree \? really irrelevant base faith many people think one way another , \? bottom line truth , regardless popularity opinions may irrelevant personal beliefs \( say bias \? \) , relevant many others 're right , bottom line truth , independant anyone else since proclaim truths self proclaimed appointee , may ask authority \? says bible \? bible say , , someone else , interprets whether scripture doctrine conforms particular liking disapproval \? excuse moi , line truths n't moved one bit persuade beliefs erroneous preachers truth net , struck self righteous member wrecking crew , positive message latter day saint btw , entire discussion reminds lot things said jesus pharisees ye hypocrite \( \) ye preach lips , hearts far removed also , find rather strange trying persuade created eternally existent equivalent , say granted mormon belief ca n't grant conclusion expect point addressed order reply issue , address answer point raised , jump conclusion grant sophistry look 's talking jumping conclusions \? would n't , right \? address convictions , regardless whether come biblical scriptures supports points view , reject interpretations without consideration whatsoever bible states lucifer created bible states jesus creator contradiction lds belief jesus lucifer beautiful example disinformation deliberate misrepresentation lds doctrine former kgb would loved employ jesus lucifer , silly , know \( \) mormon belief children god literally nothing symbolic however , contradicts bible says bible teaches everyone child god correction may contradict would think bible says bible indeed teach children god sense belong follow god satan followers rebelled god , children \( followers redeemed \) god , n't mean created god , chose separate chose follow god plan salvation field world good seed children kingdom children wicked one \( matthew 13 38 \) \? illustrates nicely said children kingdom remained valiant testimony jesus \( shown works repentance , etc \) , children wicked one rebelled god lamb issue satan 's spirit origin \( followed \) addressed verses copied bible purposefully obscured subject right non related scriptures \( lots nice scriptures deleted \( robert w copyrighted \) though \) ra told , life eternal , might know ra thee true god , jesus christ , thou hast sent ra \( john 17 3 \) life eternal know true god yet ra doctrines lds mentioned portray vastly ra different jesus , jesus cannot reconciled jesus ra bible far removed proclaim correction jesus indeed different jesus , reconciled jesus bible interpretation , concur , honestly could n't care less ra one true denies true according ra bible , eternal life dependent knowing true god , ra construct imagination single posting , 've seen constructs imagination pro lds mails combined read far news group first get lds facts straight dare preaching us true god , interpret according likes dislikes , whose image cannot reconcile know guess grandiose self image allow faiths , believing divinity jesus christ , different way fashion really matters , mission progress lds church go , boldly , mob opponent stop work progressing , visited every continent , swept every , sounded every ear really red herring n't address issue raised , rather , seeks obfuscate fact groups try read something bible , n't change bible teaches sigh bible teaches \? bible teaches according robert weiss co \? respect former , reject latter without feeling rejected jesus contrary way , respect interpretations bible , even grant christian \( following image \) , much christian \( following image heart \) \( \) replies instead hop issue bruce mcconkie whether views doctrine ' n't think matters mcconkie 's views canon issue mcconkie 's writings indicative mormon belief subject real issue indication rick may certainly issue , course , love use anything either mis represent ridicule lds church issue official doctrine obviously important mcconkie 's views controversial \( e g seven deadly heresies made heretic ! \) best , erroneous worst \( blacks receive priesthood dispensation \) respect someone made valuable contribution church , personally rely personal interpretations \( book mormon doctrine oftentimes referred mcconkie 's bible mormon circles \) mormon doctrine rather look official \( doctrinal \) sources , hugh nibley 's books ! \( last comment lds reference \) summarizing mcconkie wise man contributed undoubtedly far kingdom god , whose views means dogma accepted doctrine , clearly belongs personal interpretation speculation said , find mcconkie \( even biased speculative moments \) far thought provoking trash coming proverbial pen i'm somewhat appalled allowed sink low posting robert weiss psyrobtw ubvms cc buffalo edu casper c knies isscck byuvm bitnet brigham young university isscck vm byu edu ucs computer facilities
pharvey quack kfu com \( paul harvey \) subject kind loving god ! ! \( ! \) organization duck pond public unix 1 408 249 9630 , log 'guest' sandvik sandvik kent apple com 1993apr16 ra royalroads ca sandvik sandvik kent apple com lines 28 article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) writes article 1993apr16 ra royalroads ca , mlee post royalroads ca \( malcolm lee \) wrote brings another question still ponder much anti semitism \? people hate jews \? n't hate jews consider like anyone else , sinners n't know , n't care ethnical rights wrongs , 's evident christians consider jews longer sole selected group god 's people jews consider case christian anti semitism comes obvious fact jews know hebrew scriptures better anyone else , yet convert christianity en mass , thus rejecting christian love wonder caused anti semitism one might even wonder christianity n't separation , would anti semitism even started \? n't see rest tribal people \? happened tribes americas \? culture seen different undesirable west , particular us failed melting pot concept tribes hunted extinction , hebrew tribe one course becomes difficult times separate christianity western experience , perhaps right , perhaps would better world cultural experiment christianity never happened
kcochran nyx cs du edu \( keith justified ancient cochran \) subject flaming nazis x disclaimer nyx public access unix system run university denver denver community university neither control responsibility opinions users organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept lines 38 article 1993apr18 news cs brandeis edu deane binah cc brandeis edu writes okay , 'll bite probably leave alone , heck article 1993apr14 422 sun0 urz uni heidelberg de , gsmith lauren iwr uni heidelberg de \( gene w smith \) writes article brewich hou tx us popec brewich hou tx us \( pope charles \) writes name guy responsible much uniforms , props used early nazis rallies name roehm , hitler claim came swastika business n't credit actual flag design party member dentist \? believe gives credit mein kampf killed early nazi purge many associates flaming homosexuals well know also trying find actual evidence common assertion recently postings groups soc history soc culture german uncovered net experts could provide well , i'm expert , histories nazi germany assert make reference several scandals occurred long night long knives impression got homosexuality portions sa common knowledge also , book \( homosexual author whose name escapes moment \) called homosexuals history asserts roehm heines homosexuals , well others roehm 's sa circle rest deleted anybody p h help \? find night brown shirts kcochran nyx cs du edu b \( 0 4 \) c e f g k \( \) r \( \) \( \) tsakc thoughts , posts , ideas , responsibility , beer , pizza ok \? \? \?
pharvey quack kfu com \( paul harvey \) subject christians law \? clarification personal position organization duck pond public unix 1 408 249 9630 , log 'guest' lines 24 article c5muiw aqc mailer cc fsu edu dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu \( darius lecointe \) writes good stuff deleted worship every day week issue whether christians fault going church sunday going church saturday attending church service mean recognized holiness day \( apologies paul hudson \) question authority proclaim requirements fourth commandment longer relevant modern christians \? please note commandment command go church , keep holy unto lord serves give pleasure satisfaction going hear christian answer question \? paraphrase whose authority christians proclaim law prophets \( 7 major 12 minor \) accountable ten commandments jesus clearly spoke opinion matthew 5 14 19 \? source pseudo doctrine \? pseudo teacher \? great deceiver \?
studserv zdv uni tuebingen de \( cornelius \) subject real probability abiogenesis \( albert sabin \) organization zdv uni tuebingen lines 27 nntp posting host studserv zdv uni tuebingen de ctron news ctron com king ctron com \( john e king \) writes bio indiana edu \( andy peters \) writes 1 \) 're talking proteins fact , n't talking proteins , since \( say i'm really upset \) nobody claims proteins appeared de proteins form randomly 2 \) , andy , please clarify 1 \) state proteins form randomly seems point well , andy , current theories hypotheses abiogenesis posting \) , would aware fact none claims proteins assembled randomly amino acids current thinking rna based came enzymes , proteins assembled kind primitive translation machinery respond 2 \) cornelius cornelius , department physiological chemistry , u tuebingen email studserv zdv uni tuebingen de people dna 's way making dna \( r anonymous \)
pharvey quack kfu com \( paul harvey \) subject invisible god ! organization duck pond public unix 1 408 249 9630 , log 'guest' lines 14 article 1993apr17 maths tcd ie pmoloney maths tcd ie \( paul moloney \) writes jmeritt mental mitre org \( jim meritt system admin \) writes god seen take away hand , thou shalt see \? god 's \? lunacy ! \( gee , maybe 's something christianity thing maybe god john animal house \) supernatural one wants personal relationship 1 , come quick !
pharvey quack kfu com \( paul harvey \) subject ignorance bliss , good jesus died \? organization duck pond public unix 1 408 249 9630 , log 'guest' 1993apr17 010734 organpipe uug arizona edu sandvik sandvik kent apple com lines 7 article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) writes ignorance bliss ! ignorance strength ! help spread truth ignorance !
pharvey quack kfu com \( paul harvey \) subject christians law , clarification personal position organization duck pond public unix 1 408 249 9630 , log 'guest' sandvik sandvik kent apple com lines 24 article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) writes online bible cd , n't cd rom system time , ca n't search famous cite jesus explicitly states n't want break existing \( jewish \) laws words technically speaking christians use saturday sunday holy day , want conform teachings jesus said christians want conform teachings jesus \? light world city ca n't hidden lying people light candle cover big basket put tall candlestick shine everyone house 's light must shine front world , people see good deeds give credit father skies n't think came dissolve law torah aka first five books prophets 7 major plus 12 minor n't come dissolve , came fulfill assure , till sky earth go away , one letter mark law ever go away everthing come pass anyone dissolves even one smallest commandments teaches others way , known lowest kingdom skies whereas anyone keeps commands teaches , known someone great kingdom skies matt5 14 19 , , isbn 0 99 2
buddha iastate edu \( scott h \) subject bad press islam recieved organization iowa state university , ames ia lines 16 recently read article local paper written islamic person upset way islam portrayed western media terrorist action takes place middle east , always played islamic terrorist however , serbian terrorist attacks , christian terrorist , terrorist often tried explain close friends believe press , islam somehow tied violence often times hear things like n't value human life like wondering anyone suggestions change image , help friends see hype would appreciate serious suggestions comments via e mail , i'm interested hearing right press scott buddha iastate edu
keegan acm rpi edu \( james g keegan jr \) subject spreading christianity \( christian extremist kills doctor \) nntp posting host hermes acm rpi edu reply keegan hermes acm rpi edu organization k c lines 15 nyikos math scarolina edu \( peter nyikos \) writes addressed key issues long \( 284 lines \) post dean kaflowitz two posts yesterday first made title post new thread , dean kaflowitz terminally irony impaired \? second , serious one appeared along thread post , challenge , revised 're insecure people reading posts feel need write new posts announcing wrote old , posts , bother \? accept , 're
netcom com \( max \( ! \) \) subject rosicrucian order \( \) \? ! organization software garden ov delights lines 27 article usenet ins cwru edu ch981 cleveland freenet edu \( tony alicea \) writes name three really competing rosicrucian orders probably spent time none spin offs opposite may case assume statement unequivocally saying amorc spin oto \? fact , oto may well spin amorc \? \? would quite interested hearing evidence support claim study harder , study smarter , harder ! \) everything everything everybody real total war become information war , fought ! max ! netcom com 415 431 1 125 51
dickeney access digex com \( dick \) subject swastika \( hitler pagan christian \? \) organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 15 nntp posting host access digex net observation tree life would rotate clockwise northern hemisphere counterclockwise southern probably n't give enough consideration force compared , say , vegetation much likely explanation classic one clockwise swastika sun wheel , sun across sky way \( although 's historical way happened clocks first made little imitation images sun moving thru heavens 's valid talk clock going , engineers listen \? course \) anyway , still much uncertainty whether anti swastika goes counter represents evil , sun 's twin opposite , use anti sun represent evil may humans strongly visually oriented , i'm going try settle one \( dickeney access digex com \)
dickeney access digex com \( dick \) subject swastika \( hitler pagan christian \? \) organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 6 nntp posting host access digex net red , , black , colors imperial german war flag go back still prussian drinking songs celebrating red , white black colors , fletcher pratt points , blood iron
dickeney access digex com \( dick \) subject flaming nazis organization express access online communications , greenbelt , md usa lines 10 nntp posting host access digex net trouble trying find truth roehm buddies accused flaming , one pretexts night long knives roehm sa wing purged since thereafter controlled records , anything bearing subject true considered tainted evidence available data suggest roehm crowd , sa , storm troopers left world better place departed , concrete particulars still less shrewd guesses
thyagi cup portal com \( thyagi morgoth nagasiva \) subject oto , ancient order oriental templars organization portal system \( tm \) distribution world 1993apr14 lynx dac northeastern edu cup portal com csugrad cs vt edu lines 144 thou wilt shall whole law honestly word sin restriction would kid \? one man 's words encompass majestic vision thousands individuals \? quoting man quoting order taken context , words interpreted much differently one applied within confines original expression think case regarding hymenaeus beta , frater superior order belong included bit x' us service showed us extremes order members known go fervor little knowledge regarding background , surely unusual man , important force order many years yet people change orders change , look back carefully dirty laundry remember surface skim many perspectives encompassed extend beyond one individual hope show much room difference opinion within order , perhaps testing limits let us examine issue bit closely 1895 , karl kellner \( 1850 \) , wealthy austrian paper chemist , well high grade mason , founded ordo templi orientis kellner traveled widely east , met three instructed specific magical practices kellner 's efforts develop order later assisted franz hartmann , heinrich klein theodore reuss , worked together prior joining order first proclaimed 1902 reuss 's masonic publication , kellner 's death , reuss succeeded outer head h edition , published 1912 , announced order taught secret sexual magic theodore reuss interesting character born june 28 , augsburg , entered masonry 1876 singer , journalist possibly spy prussian political police , socialist league founded karl marx 's daughter husband reuss later associated william wynn , leader golden dawn , later introduced john reuss found rites memphis germany several attempts various masonic rites , reuss settled development order experienced reasonably steady growth leadership example , france , steiner berlin h spencer lewis usa 1912 , historic meeting reuss crowley occurred crowley wrote reuss came accused revealing order secrets crowley looked , initiated interpretation sexual magick first time reuss appointed crowley supreme holy king english speaking world , authorization invoked publishing material equinox reuss resigned outer head order 1922 suffering stroke named crowley successor well 1925 book law translated german break continuity order members split new h book , crowley actively order earlier revise order rituals reuss 's request , deeply doctrines new aeon revelation introduction history , ad within equinox iii 10 , edited hymenaeus beta , frater superior , rex , caliph united states america , published samuel , 1990 many possible reasons frater superior included material equinox iii 10 real point , \? wish publish things history organization \? represent dogmatic threat principle \? exercising true putting forth complex pictures easy answers \? picture leaves room many interpretations quite easy see , example , derived dribble masonry , purchased clever ounce courage writing ability aid take way present caliph , whose feeble support laughable best would thrown order speaking way \? \? think \? frater see perspective , using example illustration shows may express things context larger work true significance may quite difficult apprehend first may oto x' please look carefully support reuss 's words , qualified assess , critical member order take stand allowed continue , say health order \? mean order abandoned moral principles \? mean strong ability let universal arise , dogmatic requirement \? shall resolve two possibilities \? find high calibre individual associated ordo templi orientis often quite intelligent sometimes well versed arcane usual information quite often artists geniuses met 20 longstanding members sf bay area \( many heavily involved order \) , vouch integrity organization stands sometimes questioned policy hymenaeus beta moments followed intuition , 've found little stop requesting second initiation different body i'm happily participating social groups \( \) come know gnostic mass well enough tastes n't make authority order politics explanations , however relay understand based limited contact members urge take words x far many ways interpret words , many people become involved order feel strongly sanctity personal freedom preservation individual vision welcome comment issue writing response posts thread invoke stars love law , love ! frater \( \) \( \)
subject albert sabin rfox charlie usd edu \( rich fox , univ south dakota \) reply rfox charlie usd edu organization university south dakota computer science dept nntp posting host charlie lines 112 article 1993apr15 rambo atlanta dg com , wpr atlanta dg com \( bill rawlins \) writes article 885 sunfish usd edu , rfox charlie usd edu \( rich fox , univ south dakota \) writes article 1993apr10 rambo atlanta dg com , wpr atlanta dg com \( bill rawlins \) writes earlier dialogue deleted perhaps read stop advancing bible evidence relating questions science jesus exist \? g wells great fallacy statement question origins based science alone nope , fallacy yep , science best determining religions handle problem scientists exclude possibility supernatural question origins fair premise \? entirely premise , conclusion second , scientists \( part \) possibility problem , necessity scientists , theologians utterly reject hypothesis science highest form truth scientists , long clearly deep fundamental misunderstanding science met man could walk water , raise people dead , claimed son god , referred scriptures , would affect belief origin man \( expand \) nope , would n't affect knowledge \( belief \) origins modern humans man could show something better , 'd change , even biblical story exact detail would ask , world father us intellect reason , proceed fool us mean , bible says nothing human like creatures know exist called human like creatures apes humans reconstructed fragments absolutely utterly false \( except \) lucy \( , ca 3 3 25 \) 40 complete , 80 taking consideration bilateral symmetry lucy walked upright , like humans , two share remarkably similar dental pattern cranial morphology unlike humans modern apes hundreds specimens species , partially reconstructed exist bill touch , feel , hold forget earth , universe , cultural record look test ancient indeed reconstructions god us \? wo n't go away , bill doubt us meet man like , bill , version absolutely correct , i'm still worried salvation 'll make \( n't steal , murder , , etc , like help people \) use reason intellect god provided benevolent loving understand dilemma , n't think \? good deeds justify person god 's sight atonement \( jesus \) needed atone sin fundamentalists say billions n't say \? beware people say truth , bill , reconsider time think science bible contradiction god scientific laws man understands creation good example god power create something nothing , order chaos n't long , feeling , bill , veterans agree , god anything , 's beef \? \( properly , 's \) point god creator look 's like agree point , bill point god power scientists generally agree 's far cry saying god please attempt understand posts title book mentioned anything substance book , must real course jesus existed , volumes evidence back give many interested , bill scholarly book many happen disagree definitely \( seriously \) interested confirmation know bible , inferences \( e g , prophecies \) , apocrypha , koran others interested independent evidence \? know josephus , almost certainly insertion also know roman documents \( e g , \) , deal early christians independent evidence \? interested please email post thanks , best regards 'll send info via e mail regards , bill info , replied several days ago hope somehow post appeared server today rich fox , anthro , usouthdakota
b645zaw utarlg uta edu \( stephen \) subject kind loving god ! ! news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host utarlg uta edu organization university texas arlington lines 45 article sandvik sandvik kent apple com , sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) writes \( stephen \) wrote sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) quotes ml remember , laws written different time applied god 's chosen people jesus changed living age grace sin longer immediately punishable death repentance salvation lord jesus christ chosen people salvation available everyone , jew gentile alike jews wo n't agree , malcolm jews ks \? religious jews exception messianic ones atheists agnostics , malcolm ks , see 're wanting malcolm 's response allow one last inter please distinguishing among religious jews , 've excepted messianic obvious reasons specifically , saying 's religious jews , trace lineage back abraham blood orthodoxy , rather faith , wo n't agree \? orthodox jews \? \( understand direction \) , issue remains unproven suspect , considering atheists agnostics often look reason atheist , reasonable conclude agree agnostics , poll seems order knows \? , i'm sure atheists counted orthodox , wonder many would follow moses , abraham , david accepting god 's word \? particular covenant one , important god \? reckon many depends ongoing dialogue considerations , might understand think 's premature assert wo n't agree j stephen
pharvey quack kfu com \( paul harvey \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality oxymoronic keywords blessed siding salesman organization duck pond public unix 1 408 249 9630 , log 'guest' k fido asd sgi com rusnews w165w mantis co uk lines 19 article rusnews w165w mantis co uk mathew mantis co uk \( mathew \) writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes , course , greatest salesman world jesus , n't \? , j r bob dobbs definitely , j r bob dobbs , , top dog , one touch , one knock bob box bob kills mon ! everyday ! close el segundo \( el subliminal \) infamous paul \( saul \) became famous result numerous act tours eastern mediterranean jesus hand duped , pawn con , fell pray paradox \( ai n't nothing sign hills ! \) like many afro asians , jesus found earth pink ! think death , con changed tall sun god ! mean way ! jesus gigs hendrix , joplin , morrison , lennon , , , etc mostly beat jah know !
subject albert sabin rfox charlie usd edu \( rich fox , univ south dakota \) reply rfox charlie usd edu 1993apr7 engage dec com 1993apr10 rambo atlanta dg com 1993apr11 zeus franklin edu , 1993apr15 225657 17804 rambo atlanta dg com organization university south dakota computer science dept nntp posting host charlie lines 71 article 1993apr15 225657 17804 rambo atlanta dg com , wpr atlanta dg com \( bill rawlins \) writes however , one highly biased account \( well possibly internally inconsistent \) written 2 ago , dead language , fanatic devotees creature question supported objective sources isnt even accepted 's messiah creature supposed , n't convince slightest , especially many current day devotees appear brainwashed believing pile guano since referred messiah , assume referring new testament please detail complaints e mail n't want post first century greek well known well understood considered josephus , jewish historian , also wrote jesus \? addition , four gospel accounts much harmony bill , taken time explain biblical scholars consider josephus reference early christian insert biblical scholar mean expert , course research , willing let chips fall may excludes literalists , may otherwise defined biblical apologists find want find trustworthy scholarly standards \( others \) insert \? read , number times passage context , josephus , superb writer , problem elsewhere work passage nothing subject matter lies suddenly appears quickly disappears demonstrate scholarly community wrong josephus insert , proof meaningless repeated 's , even josephus happened legitimate , would prove nothing scholars speak weight evidence far independent evidence would required validate claim forthcoming , belief based faith 's ok , exceed rights pass faith fact gospels , parallels , also glaring inconsistencies contradictions n't perfect canon perfect \? n't absolutely room debate \? suggest read gospel , unauthorized version robin fox \( herb huston , known relationship , indeed share evolutionary ancestry \) fact inconsistencies , gaps contradictions deny position hand , neither gospels prove faith independent evidence necessary , know none \( already discussed , far provided \) , faith moreover , committed fundamental error logic attempted prove claim want prove different saying right say logic full circles reminds bit presbyterian general assembly assembly defined five fundamentals \( fundamentalist came \) orthodox protestant christianity , wit 1 \) jesus performed miracles , 2 \) jesus born virgin , 3 \) jesus bodily resurrected , 4 \) jesus' crucifixion atoned human sin , 5 \) bible inerrant word god inerrant broadly inerrant fundamentalists take first four literally true , validate literally inerrant bible , contains first four , thing known contain first four smoke mirrors hand waving ever ! faith , bill n't better truths anyone else whatever works n't others regards , rich fox , anthro , usouthdakota
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject ignorance bliss , good jesus died \? organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 17 article quack kfu com , pharvey quack kfu com \( paul harvey \) wrote article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) writes ignorance bliss ! ignorance strength ! help spread truth ignorance ! huh , ignorance strength , wo n't distribute piece information want follow advice \( contradiction \) cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
kevin rotag mi org \( kevin darcy \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization , \? \? \? lines 41 article kyle eitech com ekr kyle eitech com \( eric rescorla \) writes article horus ap mchp sni de frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes article squick eitech com ekr squick eitech com \( eric rescorla \) writes article horus ap mchp sni de frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes like said , des works whether value privacy k , des \? abstract function des \? stops working important sense one cares importance truth , mathematics , meaning , information , etc des chip des w \? stops working important sense one values science , objective reality , etc des work value vacuum nothing else , either truth blatant assertion important sense seem weasel words imagine box accepts 16 bytes uses first 8 ecb second 8 still perfect job , whether input made time whether anyone values mathematics one looks results , acknowledges correctness , meaningful sense chip said work \? \? exist \? , mean particular , extremely complex configuration physical phenomena , one , absolutely one cares slightest exist , eric \? getting back question whether des chip works , n't work mean something like achieving desired expected effect \? note way intentionality subtly underlies definition even take definition expected , instead desired , deny conformance expectations value sorts , namely scientific values accuracy prediction results \? , one , considered intentionality primary ontological stuff built perceptions , consciousness , thoughts , etc frank means alone seeing intentionality \( values , puts \) underlying human experience , even called objective experiences , measurements natural world , output des chip kevin
kevin rotag mi org \( kevin darcy \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization , \? \? \? lines 15 article 1993apr15 mnemosyne cs du edu kcochran nyx cs du edu \( keith justified ancient cochran \) writes followups set talk abortion article news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) writes reading thread wrong another bemoaning fact christianity code objective morality \? please define objective morality 're , please state theory creationism still searching irrelevant issue pro , see slimy tactic kevin
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization sgi lines 40 nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article horus ap mchp sni de , frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes article k fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes mean 's moral use force someone advocates use force \? , yes minimum force , start , depends forced \( either side \) mean sometimes use force people necessity self defence , recognizing actions moral \? opinion actions would moral , would immoral act action would necessary effective , many caveats note , usage opinion admission n't lock morals , truth morality lock 're admitting lot admitting morals situational admitting actions people situation help determine judge moral significance one actions employ x degree force , 's moral , employ x degree force , previously someone else employed degree force , situation thus , moral quite different saying employing force people immoral , period unfortunately , time time obliged immoral thing reasons self preservation , bear moral consequences 's worth yes , know claim agnostic 's ability label things immoral moral find one least attractive qualities religious mind jon
livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization sgi lines 31 nntp posting host solntze wpd sgi com article horus ap mchp sni de , frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes article k fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com \( jon livesey \) writes article na4 horus ap mchp sni de , frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes article kmr4 1571 po cwru edu kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) writes pushed back undefined meaning must define objective values really \? n't know objective value \? offered people u , collectively , 1 land america , would sound like good deal \? mean find ridiculous price , rest us supposed conclude objectively correct price exists \? said nothing price asked deal good n't complete non sequitur , \? coming deal tell us anything existence objective values 're asking us accept deal offered would turned , believe , appeal objective values becasue know , think know , something people people know exhibit subjective values would lead reject deal 1 land america great , \? jon
lfoard hopper virginia edu \( lawrence c foard \) subject bad press islam recieved organization itc uva community access unix internet project lines 34 article buddha 07 cc iastate edu buddha iastate edu \( scott h \) writes recently read article local paper written islamic person upset way islam portrayed western media terrorist action takes place middle east , always played islamic terrorist however , serbian terrorist attacks , christian terrorist , terrorist often tried explain close friends believe press , islam somehow tied violence often times hear things like n't value human life like wondering anyone suggestions change image , help friends see hype would appreciate serious suggestions comments via e mail , i'm interested hearing right press easily show pictures crime scenes perpetrated christian terrorists country , n't convince talk victims christian terrorism brutal act terrorism inspired christian propoganda recently commited campus simple religious extremists religions put value human life christian islamic fundamentalists put advancing religion else , even violates religion p i'm saying christians terrorists , i'm using christian terrorist way media uses islamic terrorist join pythagorean reform church ! repent evil irrational numbers bean eating ways accept 10 heart ! call pythagorean reform church bbs 508 793 9568
ch981 cleveland freenet edu \( tony alicea \) subject rosicrucian order \( \) \? ! organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 41 reply ch981 cleveland freenet edu \( tony alicea \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu kent due respect , take seriously , names wrong 1st place \? e g san jose rc \( ordo rosae crucis \) thing correct name ancient mystical order rosae crucis , amorc order created max thing either 's rosicrucian fellowship clearly state pretend descend order addition many splinter groups around europe claim connection original group supposedly founded middle ages lectorium \? else \? freemason groups also rosicrucian like separate groups , even far ideologies rc groups somehow common rosicrucian orders masonic study groups , none claims descendant original order might compete much time spent \) let start , part 8 years kent \? mean amorc , n't even learn correct name \? ! tony
alizard tweekco uucp \( lizard \) subject rosicrucian order \( \) \? ! organization com systems bbs , , ca \( 510 \) 631 lines 32 netcom com \( max \( ! \) \) writes article usenet ins cwru edu ch981 cleveland freenet edu \( tony name three really competing rosicrucian orders probably spent time none spin offs opposite may case assume statement unequivocally saying amorc spin oto \? fact , oto may well spin amorc \? \? would quite interested hearing evidence support claim well , fair amount evidence floating around indicates oto around since least late , long crowley ever heard , long amorc around \? \( yes , know claim existed organization clear , doubt organizational paperwork non profit carbon dated 20 , 000 bc \) lizard lizard internet addresses alizard tweekco boo pacbell com \( preferred \) pacbell com ! boo ! tweekco ! alizard \( bang path \) alizard com \( backup \) pgp2 2 public key available request
ch981 cleveland freenet edu \( tony alicea \) subject rosicrucian order \( \) \? ! organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 21 reply ch981 cleveland freenet edu \( tony alicea \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu previous article , netcom com \( max ! \) \) says assume statement unequivocally saying amorc spin oto \? absolutely lewis n't care 1921 charter reuss mind something completely crowley lewis different persons , probably know fact , oto may well spin amorc \? \? overstatement , sorry \) study harder , study smarter , harder ! \) always
ba mrcnext cso uiuc edu \( b davis howe \) subject rosicrucian order \( \) \? ! organization university illinois urbana lines 13 subject many competing rc orders , let point golden dawn outer order tradition inner order et crucis 's rose gold cross , rough translation g ' ' rosicrucian order , derivative groups course , real rosicrucians never admit rosicrucian enjoy journey ! queer , peculiar , ! \) closed minds n't want know
ch981 cleveland freenet edu \( tony alicea \) subject rosicrucian order \( \) \? ! organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 22 reply ch981 cleveland freenet edu \( tony alicea \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu previous article , ba mrcnext cso uiuc edu \( b davis howe \) says subject many competing rc orders , let point golden dawn outer order tradition inner order et crucis wondering , mean lectorium rosicrucianum \? warning point arguing 's legit 's golden dawn talking \? sake argument , \( reflecting affiliation \) going say true rosicrucian order rosae crucis , penn , takers \? \) , tony
irfan davinci ece wisc edu \( irfan alan \) subject treatise miracles muhammad saw , part 2 organization univ wisconsin madison electrical computer engineering distribution usa lines 125 following introduction muhammad saw covered treatise muhammad peace blessings allah upon \( saw \) last prophet islam prophet revealed last holy scripture , qur'an , allah swa \( praise \) arch angel gabriel seal prophets till day judgement stated qur'an allah swa \( praise \) muhammad saw lived 571 632 ac claimed muhammad saw , treason islam , qur'an , message allah swa muhammad saw seed , another messenger allah son abraham also messenger allah messenger previous holy scriptures coming mentioned verse qur'an chapter 33 , verse 40 whose rough translation follows muhammad father men , \( \) messenger allah , seal prophets , allah full knowledge things commentary verse document sealed , complete , addition holy prophet muhammad saw closed long line messengers allah 's teaching always continuous , prophet muhammad saw later ages want thinkers , , prophets arbitrary matter decree full knowledge wisdom , allah full knowledge things droplet vol 1 , 11 , part 2 r p l e vast ocean miraculous qur'an translations arabic turkish writings said , vol 1 , 11 , part 2 nineteenth letter \( treatise miracles muhammed saw \) \( continued droplet vol 1 , 11 , part 1 \) second sign noble messenger \( saw \) declared prophethood , presented humanity decree glorious qur'an manifest miracles number , according scholars , one thousand occurrence miracles entirety certain fact declared prophet fact , shown words unbelievers quoted various places wise , even could deny occurrence miracles , called wa ! \( allah forbids \) , order satisfy , deceive followers miracles muhammad \( saw \) certainty confirmation consensus ulema \( scholars islam \) degree miracle creator universe declaration prophethood effect words , 'you indeed spoken truth ! ' suppose said assembly ruler , observed , 'the true ruler appointed position time asked prove claim , word uttered ruler would sufficiently support , ruler changed usual practice attitude request , would confirm claim even soundly definitely would word ' way , allah 's noble messenger claimed 'i envoy creator universe proof change order request prayer look fingers makes run like fountain five look moon gesture finger , splits two look tree affirm , bear witness , moves comes near look food although barely enough two three men , satisfies two three hundred shows hundreds similar miracles however , evidences veracity high proofs prophethood restricted miracles deeds acts , words behavior , moral conduct manners , character appearance prove seriousness indeed , many people abdullah b salam , famous scholar children israel , came belief merely seeing , said , 'no lie hide face , fraud found ! ' although many researchers concluded proofs prophethood muhammad miracles number one thousand , thousands , perhaps hundreds thousands proofs prophethood hundreds thousands truth seeking men \( \) varying opinions affirmed prophethood equal number ways wise alone demonstrates thousands proofs prophethood , addition forty aspects since prophethood phenomenon humanity , hundreds thousands individuals claimed prophethood performed miracles lived passed away , prophethood muhammad \( saw \) superior prophethood others whatever evidences , qualities attributes became means prophethood messengers jesus \( \) moses \( \) , owned perfect comprehensive fashion muhammad \( saw \) since causes means prophetic authority exist perfectly person muhammad \( saw \) , authority found prophets continued allah willing irfan alan , servant islam
cco caltech edu \( michael \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization california institute technology , pasadena lines 25 nntp posting host lloyd caltech edu kevin rotag mi org \( kevin darcy \) writes article 1993apr15 mnemosyne cs du edu kcochran nyx cs du edu \( keith justified ancient cochran \) writes followups set talk abortion article news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) writes reading thread wrong another bemoaning fact christianity code objective morality \? please define objective morality 're , please state theory creationism still searching irrelevant issue pro , see slimy tactic kevin well , crosspost talk origins , expect \? michael 're paranoid n't mean 're get cco caltech edu
subject albert sabin lippard skyblu ccit arizona edu \( james j lippard \) distribution world , local organization university arizona nntp posting host skyblu ccit arizona edu news software vax vms vnews 1 41 lines 53 article sunfish usd edu , rfox charlie usd edu writes article 1993apr15 225657 17804 rambo atlanta dg com , wpr atlanta dg com \( bill rawlins \) writes however , one highly biased account \( well possibly internally inconsistent \) written 2 ago , dead language , fanatic devotees creature question supported objective sources isnt even accepted 's messiah creature supposed , n't convince slightest , especially many current day devotees appear brainwashed believing pile guano since referred messiah , assume referring new testament please detail complaints e mail n't want post first century greek well known well understood considered josephus , jewish historian , also wrote jesus \? addition , four gospel accounts much harmony bill , taken time explain biblical scholars consider josephus reference early christian insert biblical scholar mean expert , course research , willing let chips fall may excludes literalists , may otherwise defined biblical apologists find want find trustworthy scholarly standards \( others \) insert \? read , number times passage context , josephus , superb writer , problem elsewhere work passage nothing subject matter lies suddenly appears quickly disappears think weak argument fact , two references jesus antiquities jews , one unquestionably least altered christians origen wrote , third century , josephus recognize jesus messiah , long passage says opposite arabic manuscript antiquities jews contains version passage much less ho jesus may authentic question origen , third century , saw reference jesus josephus manuscripts antiquities lack references possible fabricated whole cloth inserted , n't think 's likely think consensus scholarly community case \( know g wells takes position , 's takes small minority view jesus never existed professor german , biblical history new testament anything directly relevant jesus \) jim lippard lippard ccit arizona edu dept philosophy lippard arizvms bitnet university arizona tucson , az 85721
ba mrcnext cso uiuc edu \( b davis howe \) subject rosicrucian order \( \) \? ! organization university illinois urbana lines 39 ch981 cleveland freenet edu \( tony alicea \) writes previous article , ba mrcnext cso uiuc edu \( b davis howe \) says subject many competing rc orders , let point golden dawn outer order tradition inner order et crucis wondering , mean lectorium rosicrucianum \? warning point arguing 's legit 's golden dawn talking \? , n't mean lr , whatever gd , i'm using complete golden dawn system magic source , \( unless lying \) i'm pulling name original order 's rituals multiple modern groups part comment spin offs sake argument , \( reflecting affiliation \) going say true rosicrucian order rosae crucis , penn , member religious society friends \( membership urbana champaign \( il \) friends meeting \) find ironic \) takers \? \) n't want belong anything runs around claiming true whatever find disgusting \( enjoy journey ! queer , peculiar , ! \) closed minds n't want know
house helios usq edu au \( ron house \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization university southern queensland lines 21 wam umd edu \( jay stein objectively subjective \) writes question effective difference objective values exist , disagreement values subjective \? n't see first means aspect reality contains objective values second means values reference preference individual first case , possible future discovery might invalidate certain views objective values ron house usq \( house helios usq edu au \) , australia
deane binah cc brandeis edu \( david matthew deane \) subject flaming nazis reply deane binah cc brandeis edu organization brandeis university lines 94 article access digex net , dickeney access digex com \( dick \) writes trouble trying find truth roehm buddies accused flaming , one pretexts night long knives roehm sa wing purged stop ! hold ! problems official history says first accusations homosexuality sa came outside nazi party , long nazis ever came power objection red herring , even established history wrong point moreover , none histories 've read ever made mention hitler anyone else ever using homosexuality pretext purging roehm point saw reiterated hitler party covered accusations going accuse official history fabrication , least get facts right pretext purging roehm planning use sa coup hitler nowhere mention using allegations homosexuality pretext purge , justification afterwards \( possible histories 've read mentioned , doubt would hitler 's best interest admit world former right hand man homosexual \? \) anyway , said , always possible missed references nazis making use charges homosexuality sa night long knives prove false even nazis could tell truth advantage case , deal accusations homosexuality sa 1920 's since thereafter controlled records , anything bearing subject true considered tainted evidence ah , yes forgot posted alt conspiracy smell paranoia since nazis never officially charged roehm homosexuality \( least , according 've read \) , 'd like know tainted evidence talking since accusations made persons outside nazi party , long came power , accusations common knowledge journalists others germany 1920 's 30 's , would possible nazis go back time plant tainted evidence \? exactly one doctor newspapers circulated around world , without discrepancies obvious \? actual incidences nazi evidence matter know \? testimony people involved matters , nazis \? point making false accusation homosexuality publicize \? since point seems discredit established history , burden proof falls revisionist revisionists better homework making accusations otherwise simply look like conspiracy nuts available data suggest roehm crowd , sa , storm troopers left world better place departed , thing agree suspect notion might bad people roehm sa buddies homosexuals must disturb people feeling seems nasty individual accused homosexuality , must attempt bash homosexuals fear often justified lies behind distrust official history , seems good justification trashing accepted accounts subject really think historians incompetent , n't write ask got sources subject , ca n't tell footnotes \? i'm graduate student history writing professors tracking sources old hat time limited specialty neither anyone else said anything would cast one shred doubt existing evidence i'm going waste time trying debunk someone 's paranoia research concrete particulars still less shrewd guesses given already consider evidence tainted , earth would constitute concrete particulars \? since concrete particulars considered shrewd guesses \? suggest trust popular historians \( irving et al \) historians writing popular audience , rule , provide copious footnotes try instead reading academic historians , usually provide footnotes sources detail place start looking assuming one really wants know truth 'll bet folks alt pagan tired subject already apologies seem gone bit tangent forget gods responsible keeping strings within appropriate newsgroup subject boundaries david matthew deane \( deane binah cc brandeis edu \) eternal bleak wind let gods speak softly us days hereafter \( ezra pound \)
hedrick athos rutgers edu \( charles hedrick \) subject clarification personal position \( jesus law \) organization rutgers univ , new brunswick , n j lines 98 sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) writes online bible cd , n't cd rom system time , ca n't search famous cite jesus explicitly states n't want break existing \( jewish \) laws words technically speaking christians use saturday sunday holy day , want conform teachings jesus think passage 're looking following matthew 5 17 think come abolish law prophets come abolish fulfil matthew 5 18 truly , say , till heaven earth pass away , iota , dot , pass law accomplished matthew 5 19 whoever one least commandments teaches men , shall called least kingdom heaven teaches shall called great kingdom heaven matthew 5 20 tell , unless righteousness exceeds scribes pharisees , never enter kingdom heaven several problems serious law regarded jews time \( \) binding jews , gentiles rules binding human beings \( called laws \) , quite minimal issue church face jesus' death gentiles wanted follow christ decision impose law n't say law abolished simply acknowledged fact n't apply gentiles simple answer , think everyone agree \( discussion issue less terms recorded acts 15 \) however 's involved order get full picture role law , come grips paul 's apparent rejection law , relates jesus' law least read paul , says law serves purpose certain sense superceded , issue n't one abolition law middle discussion , paul notes might understood way , assures us 's intends say rather , sees law primarily present convict people sinfulness ultimately 's impossible standard , one superceded christ paul 's comments world 's clearest , everyone agrees reading interesting thing notice even radical position entail abolition law still remains uncompromising standard , iota dot may removed purpose sin , 's important relaxed however christians , 's end ultimately live faith , law theoretical categories use rather different , end think jesus paul come rather similar conclusion quoted passage mat 5 taken context rest sermon mount , jesus shows us interprets law iota dot would suggest rather literal reading , fact 's jesus' approach jesus' interpretations emphasize intent law , stay away ceremonial details indeed well known taking rather free attitude towards sabbath kosher laws scholars claim mat 5 17 20 needs taken context 1st cent jewish discussions jesus accuses opponents caring giving tenth even minor , neglecting things really matter justice , mercy faith , caring cups plates cleaned , fact inside people use full extortion \( mat 23 23 25 \) , discussion later mat 5 , suggest jesus specific view law mind , talks maintaining law full strength , thinking aspects paul 's conclusion similar talks law superceded , specific examples gives involve ceremonial law , circumcision sabbath quite concerned maintaining moral standards net result paul talks law superceded , jesus talks law maintained , believe talking different aspects law paul embroiled arguments circumcision natural letters responding specific situations , 's looking aspect law currently causing trouble law specifically jewish ceremonies certainly intend abolish divine standards conduct hand , jesus law , seems talking law broadest implications morals human relationships , aspects later give paul much trouble 's unfortunate people use terms different ways , familiar current conflicts look way terms like family values take special meaning current context imagine poor historian future trying figure family values used code word opposition homosexuality one specific period u think law taken similar role arguments paul involved paul clearly rejecting jewish values go along term law , people concerned family values movement really opposed family values
stein u washington edu \( \) subject rosicrucian order \( \) \? ! organization friends loki society lines 27 nntp posting host stein u washington edu article usenet ins cwru edu ch981 cleveland freenet edu \( tony alicea \) writes previous article , ba mrcnext cso uiuc edu \( b davis howe \) says subject many competing rc orders , let point golden dawn outer order tradition inner order et crucis wondering , mean lectorium rosicrucianum \? warning point arguing 's legit 's golden dawn talking \? golden dawn \? original 100 years ago \? sake argument , \( reflecting affiliation \) going say true rosicrucian order rosae crucis , penn , takers \? \) rosicrucian would ever admit deny ,
paul actrix co \( paul \) subject merlin , mithras magick organization home office vienna , austria x newsreader rusnews v1 01 lines 28 us oracle com \( kevin osinski \) writes recall reading michael \( \? \) rutherford 's novel scene son roman living britain takes part secret ceremony involving bull stands naked pit covered sort scaffolding assistants coax bull stand scaffolding fatally stab bull , worshipper pit blood supposedly sort rite passage members bull cult wonder related mithras cult \? yes , certainly one traditional ideas cult \( although one \) many elements seem borrowed catholicism \( e g mass , communion , sharing sacred meal , consecration bread wine , etc \) quite amusing novel uses idea , check covenant flame david quite interesting occult bits , lots killing wo n't spoil revealing ending , say relevant paul actrix co \( paul \) home office vienna , austria read news rn trn , ask ! editor !
rich bellacera amail amdahl com subject part 1 part 2 \( homosexuality \) lines 114 return path amail amdahl com ! rich bellacera juts ccc amdahl com tony read post , nothing new , seen much typical christian anti gay literature gay people con persecuted long propaganda may unaware findings concerning african americans published used various groups enforce bias african americans usually think kkk instances , many groups course , vast majority public scoff findings documents today , always case fortunately african americans whites supported public sentiment eventually \( entirely \) turned around even civil war , anti negro sentiment increased fact , laws put place protect inalienable rights blacks pretty much legal discriminate know many gays turn back right free form discrimination may think deceived something , church , christian church \( disciples christ \) openly affirms rights oppressed people segments society , including gays believe gospel message preaching creation making disciples believe lord 's great commandment love , beleive standing oppressed , even popular really like church last reason find church almost anywhere valley stands gospel believes commandment love \( though i'm hard pressed find many actually sho love \) , many willing champion oppressed , especially within community may lost face greater christian community beliefs , oppression african americans many even killed treated runaway slaves lovers guess 've decided challenge worth talks gay men women heard tragic story tragic story centering around failed marriages , wives husbands straight hurt process , etc funny thing , n't know one case parents , ex wives , even children continued reject gay family member \( son , daughter , ex husband , father , etc \) began take part form support group , like i'm legislation passed colorado , equally slimey people louis \( tradition values coalition \) actively working christian underground garner support within several \( 8 believe \) states coming november oppressive gays perhaps n't get , maybe never many n't get middle ages proclaimed god 's done massacred thousands witch inquisitions message comes , loud clear , proponents gay rights gays general , strong dislike , even hatred gays , whether want call \( n't change results \) major flaw posturing end , final effect posts like mr hudson conditional love gays condition change 'll love sure strange coming group claim god unconditional love , one calls people sure things change , habits \( like , wife beating , etc \) need changed sort therapy things like left handedness , etc amount beating people , going result anything outward people 's expectations process coerced conformity causes many people great deal harm , especially caused people nothing gain become even puffed sense spirituality sad , thoroughly believe one day change may unpopular cry justice equality basis something personal like \( subject even today \) , firmly believe rights individuals free impose regulation thier bedrooms 's funny straight people successfully removed restrictive oppressive legislation invasive legislation , like maintain little repression though helps us maintain sense superiority least one segment society gay people criminals another interesting thing happened recently prominent charismatic church silicon valley \( \) two 's pastors arrested self admitted charges pederasty \( men sex boys \) apparently going time \( couple years \? \) , since charges voluntary , church worked closely police , imagine managed media could thing happen church , , ex gay ministry \? one friends recently told approached someone going therapy , thoroughly convinced request dinner invitation attend ministry difficult times live , providing hostile environments creating perpetuating atmosphere breed hate violence call christian community results passing amendment colorado created organization 's posters appearing colorado called r g h \( forget whole definition hand , last part immoral gross homosexual trash \) motto working fag free america implicit violence sick , seems mr hudson , others embracing christians tradition oppression towards feel n't up' , constant organizations like christian research institute , good purpose also , major work seems finding new better ways excluding people gospel believe negative , rather seeks ways include people several dr martin 's books find quite helpful , especially concerning ' seems cri , become cult unto n't stick positive find ways bring people jesus taking driving away \? whatever rich \(
subject christian daemons \? biblical demons , u mhd moorhead msus edu reply mhd moorhead msus edu organization moorhead state university , moorhead , mn nntp posting host 134 29 97 2 lines 23 667 neighbor beast , 667 across street beast 664 668 neighbors beast think people still clear 667 neighbor beast , , rather , across street , fact , 668 neighbor beast , sheesh , n't know 666 beast 's apartment \? 667 across hall beast , neighbor along rest 6th floor justin \( still trying figure alt \) n't seem \? paul w , discordian libertarian ! ! internet moorhead msus edu \( \) chair , moorhead state university campus rectal large left quote , someone would think meant something
puk ac za \( \) subject kind loving god ! ! organization pu cho pu che lines 33 article mitre org jmeritt mental mitre org writes leviticus 21 9 daughter priest , profane playing whore , father shall burnt fire deuteronomy 22 20 21 tokens virginity found damsel shall bring damsel door father 's house , men city shall stone stones die deuteronomy 22 22 man found lying woman married husband , shall die deuteronomy 22 23 24 damsel virgin betrothed unto husband , man find city , lie ye shall bring unto gate city , ye shall stone stones die deuteronomy 22 25 man find betrothed damsel field , man force , lie man lay shall die sin men , none killing would , kind loving , also righteous , sin must punished jesus , man take sins jesus died took upon , also forgiving god kind loving , would n't people left
smithw col hp com \( walter smith \) subject part 1 part 2 \( homosexuality \) organization colorado springs center lines 51 nntp posting host fajita19 cs itc hp com rich bellacera amail amdahl com writes results passing amendment colorado created organization 's posters appearing colorado called r g h \( forget whole definition hand , last part immoral gross homosexual trash \) motto working fag free america implicit violence live colorado , never heard group obviously claims posters appearing colorado tad sick , seems mr hudson , others embracing hardly saying homosexuality sin far cry working fag free america saying would n't want homosexual kids doesnt mean endorse immoral gross homosexual trash christians tradition oppression towards feel n't up' , homosexual advocates telling us n't teach kids homosexuality natural perfectly acceptable alternative lifestyle , done us , thanks gospel believe negative , rather seeks ways include people absolutely message always , go sin , go whatever feels good one question , start post , wrote know many gays turn back right free form discrimination may lost face greater christian community beliefs , oppression african americans many even killed treated runaway slaves lovers guess 've decided challenge worth sounds real nice , struck little odd 're presenting straight xian , sticking neck taking challenge speaking support gays church impression gay 's well fine , presenting sticking neck help repressed others seems bit circumstances walter
sieferme stein u washington edu \( eric sieferman \) subject 14 apr 93 god 's promise 1 john 1 7 organization university washington , seattle lines 26 nntp posting host stein u washington edu article quack kfu com pharvey quack kfu com \( paul harvey \) writes article netcom com bskendig netcom com \( brian kendig \) writes psyrobtw ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( robert weiss \) writes walk light , light , fellowship one another , blood jesus christ son us sin light tainted blood innocent man human blood sacrifice ! martyrdom innocent virgin ! nailed wooden pole ! obsession male \? christian washed blood lamb washed blood bull anyone netland process devising new religion , use lamb bull , already reserved please choose another animal , preferably one endangered species list thank
cc usu edu \( jason \) subject christian owned organization list organization utah state university lines 12 article sdcc12 ucsd edu , shopper ucsd edu writes anyone know find list christian owned corporations companies \? one know wordperfect naw , owners wordperfect mormons , tony rose 's robert weiss' standards , mormons n't christians \) internet cc usu edu \( jason \) , logan , utah
rich bellacera amail amdahl com subject walter \? lines 15 return path amail amdahl com ! rich bellacera juts ccc amdahl com walter tried several times past communicate susan , ignored , n't honestly believe letters mean rather thought thoughtful compassionate , see seen call naive give group lord advised , unwelcome city brush dust feet go anyone cares topic write direct , , well , may god bless well bye group pax
m23364 mwunix mitre org \( james meritt \) subject kind , loving , merciful forgiving god ! nntp posting host mwunix mitre org organization mitre corporation , mclean va lines 41 article blue cis pitt edu joslin pogo isp pitt edu \( david joslin \) writes m23364 mwunix mitre org \( james meritt \) writes joslin pogo isp pitt edu \( david joslin \) writes m23364 mwunix mitre org \( james meritt \) writes \( \) context must missed said promises god keep getting subjected could please explain wrong ok \? acknowledgement public hypocrisy neither , according , jim , way criticize one person taking quote context , without hypocrite , post response every person r takes quote context \? either ask assert \? telepathy work \? \( 1 \) stephen said took quote context \( 2 \) noted stephen replied r article \( call \) took quote context \( 3 \) lack evidence x constitute evidence lack x \( common creationist error \) \( 4 \) fact stephen reply justify conclusion stephen condoned taking quotes context excellent conditions could conclusion made , direct assertion part instance , assume position eating shit merely said position , might conclusion made observing \( 7 \) assumed logical , sentence begins could please explain , intended follow sentence preceded better jim \? 's called argument disagree , explain argument sound \( admit assumption \( 7 \) may bit hasty \) agree , say yup , chance , ever even heard inductive logic \? demonstrating \( e logical \)
mlee post royalroads ca \( malcolm lee \) subject kind loving god ! ! organization royal roads military college , victoria , b c lines 38 article mitre org , jmeritt mental mitre org writes leviticus 21 9 daughter priest , profane playing whore , father shall burnt fire deuteronomy 22 20 21 tokens virginity found damsel shall bring damsel door father 's house , men city shall stone stones die deuteronomy 22 22 man found lying woman married husband , shall die deuteronomy 22 23 24 damsel virgin betrothed unto husband , man find city , lie ye shall bring unto gate city , ye shall stone stones die deuteronomy 22 25 man find betrothed damsel field , man force , lie man lay shall die laws written israelites , god 's chosen people god expressly set apart rest world israelites direct witness god 's existence disobey god knowing god real would outright denial god therefore immediately punishable remember , laws written different time applied god 's chosen people jesus changed living age grace sin longer immediately punishable death repentance salvation lord jesus christ chosen people salvation available everyone , jew gentile alike god , malcolm lee \)
brian lpl arizona edu \( brian ceccarelli 602 621 9615 \) subject 14 apr 93 god 's promise 1 john 1 7 organization lunar planetary laboratory , tucson az lines 66 brian kendig writes lev 17 11 life flesh blood , given upon altar make atonement souls blood makes atonement soul old testament big eye eye business makes sense leviticus would support physical injury repay moral wrongdoing brian k , guess \? missed point scale cold hot , 0 degrees kelvin know sanctification 've taught sunday school , catechism class , theology classes even , still ca n't accept maybe i'm still understanding , maybe i'm understanding well understand , \? bottom heart know punishment innocent man wrong yes agree jesus \? punishment say \? jesus regard death punishment 've tried repeatedly course several years accept , ca n't good would n't either way understand explain death jesus good thing , would glad hear , might even convert warned , however , 've heard common arguments , n't convince ask jesus said john 12 23 32 n't mystery anyone certainly need persuasive argument read jesus 's reply question jesus gives reasons john 16 7 one obvious reason jesus died , \( everything else , nothing punishment \) could rise life would stop doubting believe \( john 21 27 \) fact jesus rose dead hope rise dead obvious point overlook without obvious point , would hope faith would vanity jesus suffer death \? , ask jesus jesus says john 15 18 25 's mystery either world hates without reason direct proclamation far humans things thus , much need saviour ca n't , brian k , accept \? \? world cannot accept neither sees knows \( john 14 17 \) animosity lack knowledge comes robert 's daily verses convincing testimony truth john 14 17 16 25 pray hope blurt animosity lack knowledge perfect either regardless , thank god jesus revealed , without 'd also bumbling blindly though arrogantly slandering person created loves
brian lpl arizona edu \( brian ceccarelli 602 621 9615 \) subject 14 apr 93 god 's promise 1 john 1 7 organization lunar planetary laboratory , tucson az lines 16 article netcom com bskendig netcom com \( brian kendig \) writes explain death jesus good thing , would glad hear , might even convert warned , however , 've heard common arguments , n't convince warned , job convert job holy spirit , frankly , make lousy one testify conversion god loop decide follow jesus , indeed would , glory god brian ceccarelli brian lpl arizona edu
joslin pogo isp pitt edu \( david joslin \) subject kind , loving , merciful forgiving god ! organization intelligent systems program lines 46 m23364 mwunix mitre org \( james meritt \) writes \( 4 \) fact stephen reply justify conclusion stephen condoned taking quotes context excellent conditions could conclusion made , direct assertion part replace stephen david joslin , since directed accusation hypocrisy e mail wrote r robert weiss writes promise psalm 9 10 gee , since would n't hypocritical , must really busy arguing context extracted translations ! may recall , mailed six mail messages quoting articles robert weiss , sent within minutes added naturally , await arguments context translation shall await holding breath wonder get sleep , disputing context extracted translations ! similar comments perhaps could explain ever thought might reason read articles pulled r , much less write responses \? , chance , ever even heard inductive logic \? demonstrating \( e logical \) familiar inductive logic go ahead give details logic led conclude , incorrectly , would condone robert weiss taking verses context conclusion wrong , course , since agree robert weiss taking verses context nothing hypocritical , \? since reached false conclusion , made mistake logic question think would hypocritical post reply robert weiss' articles \? make common creationist error confusing lack evidence x evidence lack x \? grasp inductive logic quite firm think \? see figure mistake , learn dj
sieferme stein u washington edu \( eric sieferman \) subject judas , crucifixion , tyre , etc organization university washington , seattle lines 24 nntp posting host stein u washington edu article news ysu edu af664 yfn ysu edu \( frank decenso , jr \) writes need things life , board important personal relationship wife lord first , wife second , ministry church third \( mention job ! \) informed wife \? board wait \( ever \) organize life fit tried dropping , sieferman coerced come back wo n't time thou hast used name vain ! never coerce ridicule , maybe , never coerce please take responsibility actions \( deletia \) i'm history frank appreciate efforts good luck
medtronic com \( dale skiba \) subject biblical contradictions archer nntp posting host bass pace medtronic com organization medtronic , inc x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 27 jenny anderson \( well sf ca us \) wrote medtronic com \( dale skiba \) entirely missed point previous posting , wrote firmly western coast med bet gonna keep baby , double standards neglected give primary sources book , encyclopedia bible expect source unbiased sources mr butler give least one source , given none reply joke readers digest encyclopedia bible outrageously bogus authority could shelves trying point going encyclopedia , rather original scholarly sources big mistake procedure glad note butler arguing substance , rather arguing guess joke used seeing bogus stuff posted assumed necessarily dale skiba
medtronic com \( dale skiba \) subject bible contradictions archer nntp posting host bass pace medtronic com organization medtronic , inc x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 41 jenny anderson \( well sf ca us \) wrote medtronic com \( dale skiba \) entirely missed point previous posting , wrote comment shortly post , realized two things running fever 102 , probably gone directly reading alt slack posting august newsgroup ad point mr archer willingly prints blatant lies defense bible inerrancy , thus worthless expert witness okay , im game , give us listing blatant lies encyclopedia biblical difficulties archer writings would interesting short list generated , think likely mr archer , mindset always impartial made mistake \( imho also think mindset tends generate sorts mistakes \) hand , long list generated , likely mr archer intentionally uses deception hs books \( deceptive tyre \? \) , archer sitting around , rubbing hands plotting next deceive \? ok , lets see list open question assumed mr archer chronic liar , someone documented assumption based talk origins regulars documented numerous cases creationist \( duane friends \) long list archer mistakes yet given , may isolated incident dale skiba
kempmp phoenix oulu fi \( petri pihko \) subject really rise \? \? \? organization university oulu , finland x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 19 must correct following previous posting trying objective , must also recognise 1 \) gospels independent sources , contrary , share much material bit careful gospels tell us events , usually use textual analyses show matthew luke probably common source , may influenced mark , petri ' '' petri pihko kem pmp mathematics truth ! ' ' ' ' ' pihatie 15 c finou oulu fi physics rule ' ' ' sf 90650 oulu kempmp game ' finland phoenix oulu fi chemistry game
foster mtechca maintech com subject catholic lit organization maintech , division volt delta resources , inc orange , ca lines 64 article h7v agate berkeley edu , dzkriz ocf berkeley edu \( dennis kriz \) writes lot religious opinions quotations bible many catholic theologians papal bulls , although introduced smiley , funny might \( notable exception subject headers dick instrument redemption indeed , posting seemed vehicle religious text literary moral analysis surprised saddened would expect kind behavior evangelical born gospel thumping face 're true christian protestants , always thought catholics behaved better friend dennis , urge follow example fellow catholics , count many dozens friends , practice faith good example decent living respect common humanity others please stoop level e b g f w c protestants , think best way witness strident , intrusive , loud , insulting self righteous imagery song solomon little bit dated \( get \? middle east date palms oh , never mind \) apparently acceptable , level , accepted part canon fact derive erotica incompatible catholic doctrine thing catholic erotica \? necessarily love story people faith , love story , seek redemption penis size , pays proper respect dignity partner , still erotic enough place would submit series stories qualify , also journal entries , rings ii would guess aim cut pornography increase erotica actually agree nearly 've got enormous dick , shot wad face stories crap count noise , makes take signal noise much lower many people 's since one posters actually write decent , could write stories us instead overwhelming us commentary \? anyway , big subject please add comments , additions observations sincerely , dennis dzkriz ocf berkeley edu thank jeff foster mtechca maintech com
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject 14 apr 93 god 's promise 1 john 1 7 organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 25 article 1993apr15 organpipe uug arizona edu , brian lpl arizona edu \( brian ceccarelli 602 621 9615 \) wrote jesus gives reasons john 16 7 one obvious reason jesus died , \( everything else , nothing punishment \) could rise life would stop doubting believe \( john 21 27 \) fact jesus rose dead hope rise dead obvious point overlook without obvious point , would hope faith would vanity glad hear , note , osiris , mithras many cult gods resurrected well , 's good chance us maybe end virtual reality simulator , live forever , hurrah ! sorry , joke , sort one anyway i'm first connected osiris virtual reality personality database time write book cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject 14 apr 93 god 's promise 1 john 1 7 organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 17 article shelley u washington edu , christian washed blood lamb washed blood bull anyone netland process devising new religion , use lamb bull , already reserved please choose another animal , preferably one endangered species list hard task , cultures used animals blood sacrifices something related current post state hmm , used computers \? cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject kind loving god ! ! organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 19 article 1993apr15 ra royalroads ca , mlee post royalroads ca \( malcolm lee \) wrote laws written israelites , god 's chosen people god expressly set apart rest world israelites direct witness god 's existence disobey god knowing god real would outright denial god therefore immediately punishable remember , laws written different time applied god 's chosen people jesus changed living age grace sin longer immediately punishable death repentance salvation lord jesus christ chosen people salvation available everyone , jew gentile alike jews wo n't agree , malcolm cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
b645zaw utarlg uta edu \( stephen \) subject comments koresh 3 02 transcript news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host utarlg uta edu organization university texas arlington lines 102 article 1993apr14 microsoft com , microsoft com \( ian kennedy \) writes \( stephen \) wrote correction prior post , proper citation isaiah 30 26 moreover light moon shall light sun , light sun shall , light seven days , day lord breach people , stroke wound wait sun nova \? along lines hebrews 12 25 29 , reckon see refuse speaks escaped refused spake earth , much shall escape , turn away speaks heaven whose voice shook earth promised , saying , yet shake earth , also heaven word , yet , signifies removing things shaken , things made , things cannot shaken may remain wherefore receiving kingdom cannot moved , let us grace , whereby may serve god reverence godly fear god consuming fire 2nd thessalonians 1 7 10 troubled rest us , lord jesus shall revealed heaven mighty angels , flaming fire taking vengeance know god , obey gospel lord jesus christ shall punished everlasting destruction presence lord , glory power shall come glorified saints , admired believe \( testimony among believed \) day kinda gives flaming whole new meaning , reckon impression got talking livingston coming lord , power wise , going something ca n't handle kinda like overloading fuse due guilt somehow seems also apply entire physical world know lf suggests god n't want sent koresh reminder seems salvation , protected seals , ones survive n't good idea yet shielded seals actually involves exactly relates salvation \( involves marriage bride biblical well versed \) personally , i'm totally 100 dependent god christ , god wants understand , good , also good god wants save , dispose , 's great either way born spirit , means part body christ \( ephesians 2 \) , , matters little 's important loving god come nova , nuke , apocalypse cares \? satan might even able pull pretty convincing fake big deal worth fearing worrying though , greater glory god maybe koresh right , maybe n't , interesting see new message \( prophecy \) tour bible 've taken studying passages points 3 02 text , test prophecy still fruit bears yet clear much much important charity definition love god \( hope dear reader , 've taken expression faith , statement mere fact seems many folks get real upset \) j stephen
starowl rahul net \( michael adams \) subject 14 apr 93 god 's promise 1 john 1 7 reply starowl rahul net organization southeast alabama society warm fuzzy star worshippers lines 14 nntp posting host bolero x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 15 apr 1993 22 34 40 gmt , eric sieferman observed christian washed blood lamb washed blood bull anyone netland process devising new religion , use lamb bull , already reserved please choose another animal , preferably one endangered species list washed blood barney dinosaur \? \) michael adams \( starowl a2i rahul net \)
subject 2000 years , say christian nunnally acs harding edu \( john nunnally \) kmr4 po cwru edu horus ap mchp sni de fido asd sgi com distribution world organization harding university , , ar nntp posting host acs harding edu x news reader vms news 1 reply livesey solntze wpd sgi com 's message 15 apr 93 23 50 26 gmtlines 67 lines 67 fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com writes article horus ap mchp sni de , frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes good question , point world truth better world falsehood world possible say yes , holding jew \( truth \) , , jew , ss guy sit crack open bottle whiskey better grim alternatives present obviously , possible , best alternative seems lie 's values involved , life opinion n't confuse claim morality claim 'i lock think point would actually quite easy confuse objective morality relative morality jon actually , jon , quite true christian people caused objective morality look relative , point original question thread , e toss christianity obviously inconsistent principles \? bear , attempt explain apparent inconsistency least one christian 's viewpoint god exists creator mankind bible claims , pretty well defined concept makes people tick physically , emotionally , etc god objective morality us say , trouble understanding good \( detrimental \) creature created galatians 2 10 mankind workmanship , created christ jesus good works morality , god prepared beforehand well defined design , might walk however , contrary many people assume \( including bible , \) god 's morality cannot completely codified list rules regulations extent , every activity person 's life creates new situation morality must applied never could enough volumes codify god 's objective morality us throughout history , mankind tried reduce morality list rules \( objectivity , please \) old testament , principles specific rules time jesus , principles obscured emphasis men placed rules volumes additional rules made try codify application principles mankind n't comfortable principles reference see matthew 5 jesus explains difference law principles law example , verses 21 22 heard ancients told , 'you shall commit commits murder shall liable court ' say everyone angry brother shall liable court objective morality god gets blurred inept interpretation christians made biggest errors allowed one person group people decide exactly god intended us christians would stay committed seeking god 's instead trying prove already figured , might better job allowing others find god 's objective morality jesus said \( 's fundamental question , \) objective morality john nunnally
dmcgee uluhe soest hawaii edu \( mcgee \) subject federal hearing originator dmcgee uluhe organization school ocean earth science technology distribution usa lines 10 fact rumor \? madalyn murray o'hare atheist eliminated use bible reading prayer public schools 15 years ago going appear fcc petition stop reading gospel america also campaigning remove christmas programs , songs , etc public schools true mail federal communications commission 1919 h street washington dc expressing opposition request reference petition number
mls panix com \( michael siemon \) subject catholic right pat robertson organization panix public access unix , nyc lines 18 93105 cunyvm bitnet kevxu cunyvm bitnet writes l martino , philadelphia business executive wrote separation church state false premise must finally cast aside replaced true meaning constitution gimme time inquisition oh yes , organization 's national advisor catholic politician cardinal john j o'connor new york figures , n't \? michael l siemon must know truth , must mls ulysses att com love truth know , must act according measure love mls panix com thomas
mls panix com \( michael siemon \) subject christian meta ethics organization panix public access unix , nyc lines 176 saltillo cs utexas edu turpin cs utexas edu \( russell turpin \) writes article panix com mls panix com \( michael siemon \) writes issue , , christian says , behavior sinful christian b supposed statement \? one possibility always exists may able persuade b behavior question exhibit failure loving god neighbor michael , modern liberal , reads fairly benign meaning word constructs religious beliefs around understanding , reading scripture context commandments , love understood regard love less benign christian merely expressing approval consequences find therein says politics cultural \( \) religion love highly ambiguous word , christians write gentle words paul uses 1 corinthians passage even conservatives quote \) words eliot hymn , love unfamiliar name intolerable shirt flame case rather side attempting raise note , become evident non believer , find michael 's christianity kinder gentler think misreading , rather seriously though , given principle one cannot force one 's notion sin another , , russel turpin others \( believers unbelievers alike \) threat legislating understanding christian love take word , cannot condemn inquisitors , also following commandments understood misread \( repeatedly done \) complete bill accusation inquisition exhibiting thorough form anyone might want demonstration harm done human beings \( first place \) respect \( let alone love \) god near succession please go back quoted words possibility always exists \( , revert proper time sequence , predecessors last several centuries \) could persuade christian b case inquisition indeed constitute egregious violation law love must also note majority christians persuaded christian argumentation , well secular christian non christian prohibitions mr turpin trickier point demonstrate human pain violation love involved inquisition b responds mother church must , however painful seems , discipline children good case salvation souls \( tortured heretic , bad example deterring others loss soul \) point justification failure love depends highly speculative texts philosophical assertions quite b burns stake rhetoric failed , point making sustained going lot cultural baggage case , baggage includes \( nearly universal , absolutely secular \) belief accused person must prove innocence testimony believable taken torture elimination practice \( places eliminated , least greatly reduced \) little , anything , discussion sin exchange b mr turpin pointing , versus grand 's b , persuasion likely work know ever personal agony , issue god defense attorney , one possibility fails case fail may others extreme , persuasion succeed properly , entails mistaken assumptions share potentially even troubling case , many victims inquisition accepted fact sinful \( random cases may actually guilty charges brought \) point persuasion breaks parties share enough agree cultural baggage given main thrust inquisition , heresy , bound break precisely worst cases conservative \( n't think right word , btw \) take refuge attribute b , justified causing harm thinks works greater good violent refusal follow gospel , one 's theories sin entitled one cast aside jesus' words dealing sinners \( cf matthew 5 \) radical christian take gospel seriously \( , matter , mean love one 's fellow man \? \) right thing \? one go loving god \? well , whole point making base commandments n't rules set rules moral code law code algorithm acting things helpful individuals societies used instead personal involvement responsibility one 's actions great commandment , anything else , call act god accepting ultimate responsibility every action demand , like , would rather hear , keeps popping nonetheless \( along important open trying , \) conservatives may twist act god mean lay rules people nasty possible n't keep rules insistent \( obvious \) convinced lot people \( rightly reject whole concept ! \) idiocy god acts , , standard accusation god atheists elsewhere conservatives confused manipulative , jumping notions coercing people nature god almost entire content standard american atheism quite agree point ethical systems nice sounding goo front , much sounds pretty much , specific acts , procedures , arguments recommend different bodies christians , beginning , urged different ethical systems \( cases , none \) result , bizarre identify one systems , however popular \( infamous \) christianity christianity torah qu'ran specifically christian scripture little , anything , way commandments little christians desperately want commandments go mining almost support \( thus almost obvious limitation \) \) efforts one , single , thing gospels jesus specifically gives commandment us love one another expanding point reply paul hudson hope get day quite true christians infer lots commandments nt 'll point going inferences , huge amount cultural baggage involved quite right goo one looking ethical system anyone looking ethical system , since society eager hand us one matter \? may need principle critique ethical systems case agapate allelou glad christians , michael , find benign meaning goo , interpret usually ugly specifics constructive fashion hand , think tells us michael christians like tells us christianity think begging question n't \( \) christians like tell something christianity \? new christianity might want look origins fundamental doctrines quakers , 17th century onwards , first understand gospel manner congenial case michael l siemon say gods , sons mls panix com high , nevertheless shall die like men , fall mls ulysses att com like prince psalm 82 6 7
psyrobtw ubvmsd cc buffalo edu \( robert weiss \) subject 16 apr 93 god 's promise psalm 32 8 organization university buffalo lines 6 news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host ubvmsd cc buffalo edu instruct thee teach thee way thou shalt go guide thee mine eye psalm 32 8
medtronic com \( dale skiba \) subject judas , crucifixion , tyre , etc nntp posting host bass pace medtronic com organization medtronic , inc x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 lines 43 david joslin \( joslin pogo isp pitt edu \) wrote af664 yfn ysu edu \( frank decenso , jr \) writes based amount e mail fellow christians read posts told wasting time butler joslin , told n't db dj christians told db 's dj 's arguments wo n't convince bible studying christians purpose 's also contributed decision bible studying christians wo n't convinced arguments \? supposed good thing , presume \? bible studying christians think frank come implied good christians \? least teaching demonstrated wrong ever occured may harm good fellow christians \? btw , used think like frank went fundamentalist church n't start really think saying noticed god 's science read noticed authors knew virtually nothing science asked church members questions theories got deceptive answers began notice similar style answers theological questions well conclusion could reach peoples' beliefs bible valid beliefs god 's science still people think purpose attack bible , \( accusation frank made \) would point also criticized people posted bible contradictions turn silly , context , easily \( legitimately \) reconciled i'm attacking bible , intellectual dishonesty bible , either side one primary purposes christians seek truth , people condemn \? dale skiba
psyrobtw ubvmsd cc buffalo edu \( robert weiss \) subject lds rick 's reply organization university buffalo lines 201 news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host ubvmsd cc buffalo edu rick anderson replied letter ra article acsu buffalo edu , ra psyrobtw ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( robert weiss \) says ra ra well , jason , 's heretical ways first point ra equates lucifer jesus type ra however , lucifer created thou wast perfect thy ra ways day thou wast created , till iniquity found ra thee \( ezekiel 28 15 \) jesus , creator ra things beginning word , word ra god , word god beginning god ra things made without thing made ra made \( john 1 1 3 \) things , ra things consist \( colossians 1 17 \) ra ra inference ezekiel john passages lucifer ra created jesus depends particular ra word create one many christians may agree ra granted mormon belief god 's children \( including christ ra lucifer \) eternally existent organized ra spirit children god , term creation apply equally well ra passages briefly , something mentioned passing refer differing interpretations create , say many christians may agree \? really irrelevant base faith many people think one way another , \? bottom line truth , regardless popularity opinions also , find rather strange trying persuade created eternally existent equivalent , say granted mormon belief ca n't grant conclusion expect point addressed order reply issue , address answer point raised , jump conclusion grant bible states lucifer created bible states jesus creator contradiction lds belief jesus lucifer ra point brothers jesus lucifer also ra heretical , since innately brothers sisters christ ra adopted , ye received spirit bondage ra fear ye received spirit adoption , whereby ra cry , , father \( romans 8 15 \) natural children ra god faith even enter family ra god ye children god faith christ jesus ra \( galatians 3 26 \) manifestation ra faith receiving jesus become sons god ra many received , gave power become sons ra god , even believe name born , ra blood , flesh , man , ra god \( john 1 12 13 \) ra ra occured , robert , born someone ra person \( person \) 's family may symbolic term new ra testament \? mormons believe adopted house ra israel baptism faith christ , although expressed ra belief evince physical change bodies mormon belief children god literally nothing symbolic however , contradicts bible says bible teaches everyone child god field world good seed children kingdom children wicked one \( matthew 13 38 \) speak seen father ye ye seen father \( john 8 38 \) ye deeds father said , born fornication one father , even god jesus said unto , god father , ye would love proceeded forth came god neither came , sent ye understand speech \? even ye cannot hear word ye father devil , lusts father ye murderer beginning , abode truth , truth lie , liar , father \( john 8 41 44 \) said , full mischief , thou child devil , thou enemy righteousness , wilt thou cease pervert right ways lord \? \( acts 13 10 \) wherein time past ye walked according course world , according prince power air , spirit children disobedience \( ephesians 2 2 \) children god manifest , children devil whosoever righteousness god , neither loveth brother \( 1 john 3 10 \) one becomes child god many received , gave power become sons god , even believe name \( john 1 12 \) behold , manner love father hath bestowed upon us , called sons god therefore world knoweth us , knew beloved , sons god , doth yet appear shall know , shall appear , shall like shall see \( 1 john 3 1 2 \) born faith jesus christ born , blood , flesh , man , god \( john 1 13 \) us unto adoption children jesus christ , according good pleasure , \( ephesians 1 5 \) begat us word truth , kind creatures \( james 1 18 \) many led spirit god , sons god ye received spirit bondage fear ye received spirit adoption , whereby cry , , father spirit witness spirit , children god \( romans 8 14 16 \) beloved , let us love one another love god every one loveth born god , knoweth god \( 1 john 4 7 \) whosoever jesus christ born god every one loveth begat loveth also begotten \( 1 john 5 1 \) ye children god faith christ jesus \( galatians 3 26 \) ra told , life eternal , might know ra thee true god , jesus christ , thou hast sent ra \( john 17 3 \) life eternal know true god yet ra doctrines lds mentioned portray vastly ra different jesus , jesus cannot reconciled jesus ra bible far removed proclaim ra one true denies true according ra bible , eternal life dependent knowing true god , ra construct imagination ra ra ra robert , due respect , died left chief ra correct biblical interpretation \? n't mean , ra fact bible differently interpreted different ra groups biblical scholars \( think jehovah 's ra witnesses , example \? \) make reference jesus ra bible simply ridiculous whose jesus bible mean \? really red herring n't address issue raised , rather , seeks obfuscate fact groups try read something bible , n't change bible teaches example , fact jehovah 's witnesses deny deity christ alter bible teaches looking blessed hope , glorious appearing great god saviour jesus christ \( titus 2 13 \) , simon peter , servant apostle jesus christ , obtained like precious faith us righteousness god saviour jesus christ \( 2 peter 1 1 \) deity christ first look bible see teaches discount , even address , bible teaches groups differing views self see bible teaches , look bible ra lord 's mortality essential salvation \( ra promised messiah , p 456 \) , work salvation ra father things \( ibid , p 54 \) , ra baptized gain admission celestial kingdom \( mormon ra doctrine , p 71 \) ra ra welcome wonderful world mormon , robert ra books late bruce r mcconkie , former general authority ra lds church books published church , ra constitute offical doctrine consist opinions , ra mean says true \? 'll ra think idea christ 's personal salvation come ra conclusions conclusions come may seem heretical ra , i'm prepared accept find rather curious mentioned mormon belief jesus needed saved , put forward quotes late apostle , bruce mcconkie curious part one addressed issue needing saved ' rick comes closest conclusions addressing point replies instead hop issue bruce mcconkie whether views doctrine ' n't think matters mcconkie 's views canon issue mcconkie 's writings indicative mormon belief subject real issue indication rick may certainly robert weiss psyrobtw ubvms cc buffalo edu
thyagi cup portal com \( thyagi morgoth nagasiva \) subject oto , ancient order oriental templars organization portal system \( tm \) distribution world 1993apr14 lynx dac northeastern edu lines 68 93 ! 04 16 e v glorious eve taxation thou wilt shall whole law word sin restriction may concern known exists external visible organization men women , found path real self knowledge , , travelled burning sands , willing give benefit experience , act spiritual guides willing guided societies , associations , orders , groups etc founded last thirty years parts civilised world , following line occult study , yet one ancient organization genuine mystics shows seeker truth royal road discover lost mysteries antiquity , one hermetic truth organization known present time ancient order oriental templars ordo templi orientis otherwise hermetic brotherhood light modern school magic , like ancient schools magic , derived knowledge east knowledge never sic recorded symbol , parable allegory , requiring key interpretation key placed within reach apply membership oriental templars \( \) body initiates whose hands concentrated secret knowledge oriental orders existing masonic degrees , although academia , masonic body , far craft degrees concerned sense expression usually understood england , therefore way conflicts united lodge england english master masons good standing , arrangement , affiliation , admitted reduced charges members ix degree become part goods order information see publications , synopsis degrees ancient order oriental templars , ordo templi , frater superior merlin x degree , past grand master albert karl theodor reuss taken equinox iii 10 , edited frater superior rex , united states caliph ordo templi orientis invoke stars love law , love ! frater \( \) \( \) \( \)
swaim owlnet rice edu \( michael parks swaim \) subject oto , ancient order oriental templars organization rice university lines 33 article cup portal com thyagi cup portal com \( thyagi morgoth nagasiva \) writes may concern known exists external visible organization men women , found path real self knowledge , , travelled burning sands , willing give benefit experience , act spiritual guides willing guided societies , associations , orders , groups etc founded last thirty years parts civilised world , following line occult study , yet one ancient organization genuine mystics shows seeker truth royal road discover lost mysteries antiquity , one hermetic truth organization known present time ancient order oriental templars ordo templi orientis otherwise hermetic brotherhood light point , kinda hoping joke still , would make great premise bad syndicated tv show adventures oriental templars dedicated truth , justice , good karma ! \( dramatic music background \) doubt 've horribly offended someone mike swaim whenever soft drink machine needs swaim owlnet rice edu , rather getting angry , disclamer lie meditate things coke
system lakes trenton sc us \( kalki \) subject bhagavad gita 2 45 organization kalki 's infoline bbs , aiken , sc , usa lines 62 text 45 pertaining three modes material nature subject matter vedic transcendental three modes material nature arjuna arjuna without pure state spiritual existence free ideas gain protection van established self translation vedas deal mainly subject three modes material nature arjuna , become transcendental three modes free gain safety , established self material activities involve actions reactions three modes material nature meant results , cause bondage material world vedas deal mostly activities gradually elevate general public field sense gratification position transcendental plane arjuna , student friend lord , advised raise transcendental position philosophy , beginning , , questions supreme living entities material world struggling hard existence lord , creation material world , gave vedic wisdom advising live get rid material activities sense gratification , namely karma chapter , finished , chance spiritual realization offered form , part different vedas , bhagavad gita part fifth , namely mark beginning transcendental life long material body exists , actions reactions material modes one learn tolerance face happiness distress , cold warmth , become free regarding gain loss transcendental position achieved full consciousness one fully dependent good bhagavad gita books c n't forget chant hare krishna hare krishna , krishna krishna hare hare hare rama hare rama , rama rama hare hare kalki 's infoline bbs aiken , south carolina , usa \( system lakes trenton sc us \)
ch981 cleveland freenet edu \( tony alicea \) subject oto , ancient order oriental templars organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 20 reply ch981 cleveland freenet edu \( tony alicea \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu previous article , thyagi cup portal com \( thyagi morgoth nagasiva \) says known exists external visible organization men women , found path real self knowledge , , travelled burning sands , willing give benefit experience , act spiritual guides willing guided societies , associations , orders , groups etc founded last thirty years parts civilised world , following line occult study , yet one ancient organization genuine mystics point thought talking rosicrucian order \) offense intended ! tony
cs joensuu fi \( antti \) subject part 1 part 2 \( homosexuality \) organization university joensuu lines 9 long time , see andreas andreas stint itu , love , evolution ! !
jburrill boi hp com \( jim burrill \) subject good jesus died \? organization idaho river country , salmon , , , boise , selway , priest x newsreader tin version 1 1 8 pl6 lines 35 brian kendig \( bskendig netcom com \) wrote please point something , anything , proves universe cannot possibly explained without accepting fact existence god precisely way holy book describes \? please convince religion cleverly constructed , indeed bearing personal day day life \? would consider word eye witness \( peter \) testify events surrounding jesus' life \? 2pe 1 16 follow cleverly invented stories told power coming lord jesus christ , eyewitnesses majesty 2pe 1 17 received honor glory god father voice came majestic glory , saying , son , love well pleased 2pe 1 18 heard voice came heaven sacred mountain 2pe 1 19 word prophets made certain , well pay attention , light shining dark place , day morning star rises hearts documented testimony perhaps research part warranted making statements considerably study two books testimony regarding messiah well worth time , mr brian jim burrill
mlee post royalroads ca \( malcolm lee \) subject davidians compassion organization royal roads military college , victoria , b c lines 58 article sandvik 190493200420 sandvik kent apple com , sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) writes highly christian religious order put fire house , killing people inside would hardly consider bd 's christian acting direct contradiction scripture jesus' second coming something everyone know jesus also predicted false messiahs use name prophecy fulfilled i'm annoyed adults , knew supposedly , 's actions mostly angry fact people inside , including mothers , let children suffer die awful conditions agree considered religious following end , i'm proud n't follow fanatical non compassionate religions already given life god god tells lay life , save another life might want die whatever purpose , please spare innocent young ones nothing hard time understanding christianity knows word compassion christians , think actions today would produce good picture religion \? judge christians acts would call christian yet \? bd 's contradicted scripture actions christian simple perhaps read much media portrayed ask true believing christian find deny association bd 's even 7th day adventists denied ties cult , judge muslims acts committed saddam hussein , supposedly devout muslim \? n't saddam dictator using religious beliefs people ends god , malcolm lee \) kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
mlee post royalroads ca \( malcolm lee \) subject kind loving god ! ! organization royal roads military college , victoria , b c lines 39 article sandvik sandvik kent apple com , sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) writes article 1993apr19 ra royalroads ca , mlee post royalroads ca \( malcolm lee \) wrote true stated jesus' saving grace available everyone , jews words , everyone salvation everyone option open people jews course , jews n't accept deity christ , would hardly expect accept anything christ said n't feel animosity towards even though persecuted jesus disciples eventually crucified , bear ill anything , feel pity jesus die pay price sins jews merely fulfilling prophesy jesus knew die even began ministry demonstrates great depth love us jesus certainly demonstrated great depth love children died today davidian complex sorry , events today made even negative organized religion understand sympathize pain happened waco sad n't take us christians though branch davidians organized religion cult led ego cult leader christian faith stands shoulders one man , lord lords king kings , jesus christ btw , david koresh jesus christ claimed god , malcolm lee \) cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
mlee post royalroads ca \( malcolm lee \) subject davidians compassion organization royal roads military college , victoria , b c lines 34 article sandvik sandvik kent apple com , sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) writes article 93apr20 neat cs toronto edu , cbo cs toronto edu \( calvin bruce \) wrote article sandvik 190493200420 sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) writes hard time understanding christianity knows word compassion christians , think actions today would produce good picture religion \? clearly people considering christians alike , support one another everything particular , follows certainly support actions person calling christian see , christians , christians wonder christian world shambles , ca n't even agree rightful one wrong one one follow teachings christ , christian easy \? please , would like hear comments supposed christian leader makes sure children burnt death would say muslims like saddam hussein \? would n't make blanket judgement , \? kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
mlee post royalroads ca \( malcolm lee \) subject kind loving god ! ! organization royal roads military college , victoria , b c lines 32 article owl csrv uidaho edu , lanph872 crow csrv uidaho edu \( rob lanphier \) writes malcolm lee \( mlee post royalroads ca \) wrote bothers people religious affiliation continue persecute jews \? hatred jews \? majority people persecute jews christians \( ca n't speak christians bound anti semitism bandwagon \) even anecdotal evidence back \? blatent persecution jews history course done nazis world war ii , lutheran crowd sure , many muslims middle east consider israelites thorn side , modern persecution jews hands christians \( least far i'm aware \) rob lanphier lanph872 uidaho edu consider neo nazis white christian \? 'd hardly classify christian follow teachings christ \? love one another love neighbour love enemies jesus christ lord saviour \? persecution jews , violating christ died direct violation teachings christ even jesus crucified jewish leaders time , loved enemies asking father forgiveness sins christian bear animosity towards jews one else enemy satan , fellow man god , malcolm lee \)
netd susie sbc com \( \) subject biblical backing koresh 's 3 02 tape \( cites enclosed \) organization usr lib news organization lines 62 nntp posting host susie sbc com article 20apr199301460499 utarlg uta edu b645zaw utarlg uta edu \( stephen \) writes think david koresh n't solid structure , sound biblical backing hour long tape broadcast , n't think anyone really cares solid structure sermon 's deaths 's responsible concern people 've enclosed partial list sources cites quotes exactly used christian sermon , 's pretty good , inspired though differ part conclusions , argument presents well backed 's taken long work still ongoing thought rambling says far koresh definite relationship 've made curious say \? first seal revelation 6 , entirety psalms 45 , revelation 19 demonstrated one major points writings prophets \( including david \) , psalms , revelation telling story understand 're related \( ie key \) largely explain charles manson used revelation well see pattern \? wonder koresh liked beatles \? sequence following keyed koresh tape , care check almost see note cards used analysis long list biblical references impressed tremendously deleted interests common sense koresh nut , okay \? found ways bible backup rantings make less kook seems koresh yet another messenger got killed message carried 'll type slowly understand either set fire told followers n't make martyr get killed , killed mean time , sure learned lot evil corruption surprised things gotten rotten \? evil inside compound thou shalt kill stuff oh yeah , one last point believers philippian 2 14 19 rest us , could please post text \?
lowell locus com \( lowell morrison \) subject freemasonry southern baptist convention organization locus computing corporation , los angeles , california lines 41 article usenet ins cwru edu ch981 cleveland freenet edu \( tony alicea \) writes southern baptist convention convening june consider charges freemasonry incompatible christianity , thought following quotes mr james holly , anti masonic flag carrier , would amuse following passages exact quotes southern baptist convention freemasonry james l holly , , president mission ministry men , inc , 550 n 10th st , beaumont , tx much drivel deleted jesus christ never commanded toleration motive disciples , toleration antithesis christian message page 30 central dynamic freemason drive world unity fraternity , liberty equality toleration seen writings 'great' writers freemasonry page 31 drivel deleted hope good laugh ! know ! g , tony laugh \? tony , religeous bigot scares shit , one bothers listen causes grave doubts future anything shades branch davidians , jim jones , charlie manson uncle wolf member highland lodge 748 f \( grand lodge california \) southern one beliefs beyond teachings either
ch981 cleveland freenet edu \( tony alicea \) subject rosicrucian order \( \) \? ! organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 21 reply ch981 cleveland freenet edu \( tony alicea \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu previous article , cdcolvin rahul net \( christopher colvin \) says guess san jose mercury news wrong , old said amorc , \) nothing personal , ok \? good ! \) maybe n't know 's pending legal actions , period yes , situation resolved parties long humans handle anything , subjected breaking \) btw , gary l stewart p box tx calling org arc ancient rosae crucis guess could n't take mo amorc \) tony
hudson athena cs uga edu \( paul hudson jr \) subject clarification personal position organization university georgia , athens lines 26 article c5muiw aqc mailer cc fsu edu dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu \( darius lecointe \) writes sin violate sunday one could ever forgiven jesus never kept sunday holy recognized one day seven holy jesus also recognized holy days , like passover acts 15 says layed gentiles necessary sabbath list , epistles instruct people keep 7th day , christians living among people keep 7th day looks like would problem instead , scriptures telling us days esteemed alike \( romans 14 5 \) man judge us regard kind food eat , jewish holy days keep , regard sabbath \( col 2 \) question authority proclaim requirements fourth commandment longer relevant modern christians \? n't think sabbath , command law totally irrelevant modern christians , 2 , says judged regard keeping sabbath \? link hudson
pogo wv tek com \( ross taylor \) subject davidians compassion organization tektronix , inc , wilsonville , lines 9 evidence independent fbi indicates branch davidians set fire \? survivors said \? press see anything \? , unfortunately , precedent u government saving children alive \( precedent religious self well \) still wonder government could n't leave alone
ch981 cleveland freenet edu \( tony alicea \) subject rosicrucian order \( \) \? ! organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 18 reply ch981 cleveland freenet edu \( tony alicea \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu previous article , cdcolvin rahul net \( christopher colvin \) says worked amorc hs ok naive teen hs lewis dates back 20 's wrong 1915 homework , 1909 born last century \( \) right amorc embroiled internal political turmoil n't
ch981 cleveland freenet edu \( tony alicea \) subject freemasonry southern baptist convention organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 20 reply ch981 cleveland freenet edu \( tony alicea \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu previous article , jluther cs umr edu \( john w luther \) says john good quote complete article \) nothing personal , please ! \) also appreciate amused determined ignorance without taking anything away , want say views views ! n't think n't care ! sorry seemed different serious stuff sense humor though \( say \) tolerance ! tony
bskendig netcom com \( brian kendig \) subject good jesus died \? organization starfleet headquarters san francisco lines 42 jburrill boi hp com \( jim burrill \) writes brian kendig \( bskendig netcom com \) wrote please point something , anything , proves universe cannot possibly explained without accepting fact existence god precisely way holy book describes \? please convince religion cleverly constructed , indeed bearing personal day day life \? would consider word eye witness \( peter \) testify events surrounding jesus' life \? two problems \( 1 \) peter died two millenia ago original letters wrote long since decayed dust alive today could question , might lend credibility claims \( probably much , , 've heard people claim sincerity 've spoken elvis recently \) death , peter 's writings transcribed monks centuries , find hard believe one somewhere n't decide change wording something make \( opinion \) little easier understand \( 2 \) even peter witness miracles jesus two millenia ago , n't mean deity bible says \( god might satan , trying convince everyone 's nice guy \) , even deity still alive active world today nice try , n't enough convince , especially since wild claims deity seem fly face way 've observed world work please find something compelling brian kendig je ne suis fait comme aucun bskendig netcom com de ceux que j'ai vus j'ose croire n'etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent meaning life si je ne vaux pas mieux , au moins je suis autre ends rousseau
cwis unomaha edu \( michael j \) subject list biblical contradictions organization university nebraska omaha speak bible contradictions , would well remember context accept line reason , remembering study christian religion progressed years , matters little , concession either serves purpose distribution usa lines 6
joshua cpac washington edu \( joshua geller \) subject merlin , mithras magick organization institute study ancient science lines 14 distribution world unix portal com pegasus fp1 dialin 4 uoregon edu nntp posting host bailey cpac washington edu reply pegasus aaa uoregon edu 's message 15 apr 1993 20 26 04 gmt article pegasus fp1 dialin 4 uoregon edu pegasus aaa uoregon edu \( \) writes lets add percentages 13 15 orphaic brought group paul saul high ranking initiate development orphaic mysteries , see jane study greek religion cambridge u press 1922 draw conclusions perhaps quote bit argument \? josh
ch981 cleveland freenet edu \( tony alicea \) subject oto , ancient order oriental templars organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 11 reply ch981 cleveland freenet edu \( tony alicea \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu previous article , shades cutler com \( darrin \) says lodge n't internet address , cis address reached via uucp internet , 1351 guess would 1351 cis com' something like compuserve com tony
bskendig netcom com \( brian kendig \) subject good jesus died \? organization starfleet headquarters san francisco lines 111 brian lpl arizona edu \( brian ceccarelli 602 621 9615 \) writes want know exposed light evil deeds uncovered choice , remain darkness sort like bugs rock however , people , many , like darkness sometimes gets cold dark comfortable people crawl rock , although blinded first , get accustomed light enjoy warm , virtue light , see depths shortcomings correct also , see much much world narrow little experiences rock discover life rock incredibly life light world , great great , want tell friends maintain people want enter light knowledge alone masters , fear afraid face world terms , choice , remain darkness , sort like bugs rock however , people , many , like darkness sometimes gets cold dark comfortable people crawl rock , , although blinded first , get accustomed light enjoy warmth , , see things really , also see heights reach , places go , learn choose paths world , learn mistakes revel successes see much much world narrow experiences rock discover life rock incredibly yucky , life terms great great want tell everyone else see point \? think 're one rock , i'm getting great tan sunlight life improved since abandoned theism come join ! difficult trip first , build muscles long hike , 's well worth ! people hate light kent extent brian kendig replying thread certainly likes darkness brian k enjoys stating false concepts false god bible without checking , compares god odin zeus look , practically equated odin zeus \? 're much different god n't see \? i'm going accept anything ca n't witness eyes experience senses , especially something mega powerful 're trying get accept surely believe strongly , must good reason , n't \? checking presumption , thinks hell equivalent non existence say \? say would rather cease existing instead subject whims deity , deity decided toss fiery pits , enjoy darkness \? people honestly admit yes people fond sexual sins , money , selfishness , mention , biblical ignorance nope people christian people fond feeling imperfect , believing world undesirable place , magical mystical prayers make world nice holy , priests tell , like good little sheep enjoy darkness , 're proud may know bible well read koran \? zen writings \? hare krishna literature \? n't , say open mind \? sin fun ! let 's admit life sin leads trouble death life , hell next nope make decisions , enjoy successes , accept failures die content life 've led reflect back final moments , 've led good life come rock please god loved world gave one son , whoever believes shall perish eternal life i'm sorry , n't feel sacrificing jesus something god 'd worship would , unless sacrifice temporary , case 's really important forget bible minute forget quoting verses , forget said show picture wide open , convince 're right brian kendig je ne suis fait comme aucun bskendig netcom com de ceux que j'ai vus j'ose croire n'etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent meaning life si je ne vaux pas mieux , au moins je suis autre ends rousseau
bskendig netcom com \( brian kendig \) subject 14 apr 93 god 's promise 1 john 1 7 organization starfleet headquarters san francisco lines 19 brian lpl arizona edu \( brian ceccarelli 602 621 9615 \) writes consider mother merlyn know mother would think asserted mother 9 feet tall , murdered father , sexually abused kid \? would go fetch parents , show , thereby prove quite definitively mother named merlyn , nine feet tall , father quite alive would assert quite simply deity exist , wait similar demonstration brian kendig je ne suis fait comme aucun bskendig netcom com de ceux que j'ai vus j'ose croire n'etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent meaning life si je ne vaux pas mieux , au moins je suis autre ends rousseau
cdcolvin rahul net \( christopher colvin \) subject rosicrucian order \( \) \? ! nntp posting host bolero organization a2i network lines 26 article usenet ins cwru edu ch981 cleveland freenet edu \( tony alicea \) writes previous article , cdcolvin rahul net \( christopher colvin \) says worked amorc hs ok naive teen hs lewis dates back 20 's wrong 1915 homework , 1909 born last century \( \) right amorc embroiled internal political turmoil n't guess san jose mercury news wrong , , da involved \? christopher colvin cdcolvin rahul net
rana rintintin colorado edu \( nabeel ahmad rana \) subject new newsgroup soc religion islam ahmadiyya \? nntp posting host rintintin colorado edu organization university colorado , boulder lines 68 mr abdel writes urge vote formation news group want group , word islam attached name group n't consider muslims dr ijaz comments abdel 's statement problem consider muslims , even though n't luckily , faith determined one believes personal matter cannot declare faith someone else mr ali comments ijaz 's statement considering consequences argument converse would problem muslims dont consider muslims one considers one 's co believer also personal matter would wrong tell muslims included self argument ali funny , writes converse would problem muslims dont consider muslims wrong statement light dr ijaz 's statement , statement corrected \( \) non ahmadi muslims n't consider ahmadi muslims muslims , problem get solved \) muslims \? humans cannot decide humans may declare others faiths simple n't understand , mere use word islam becomming big issue seen postings net subject , say , , , cannot use islam name newsgroup \? \? n't seen single posting stating right declaring name 's faiths \? gives authority \? quran \? hadith \? something else \? want know ! small reminder muslim brothers , ever holy prophet islam \( muhammad \) , say anyone called muslim , muslim ! \? \? \? \? \? \? \? never ! challenge muslim brothers produce single evidence history islam ! hence , prophet muhammad could never anyone , could muslims , even governments today anyone consider holy prophet muhammad \( \) \? \? sincerely , nabeel \( note love views ana hatred none e mail rana rintintin colorado edu mine \)
joslin pogo isp pitt edu \( david joslin \) subject apology jim meritt \( silence concurance \) distribution usa organization intelligent systems program lines 39 m23364 mwunix mitre org \( james meritt \) writes stop dodging question hypocritical criticizing bad arguments , given agree conclusion disagree conclusion \? one claimed possess fruits precognition , telepathy , divine another dodge oh well i'm match amazing red herrings smoke screens asked apology i'm going apologize pointing straw man argument straw man argument saying list bible contradictions shows low standards scholarship embarrassment anti , josh mcdowell embarrassment fundies objecting various times taking quotes context pointing excuse calling red herrings smoke screens i'm still sure think i'm hypocrite 's true n't responded robert weiss' articles , may due part fact almost never read articles responded frank decenso \( inerrantist \) frank taken quotes context , 've objected 've criticized bad arguments agreed conclusion \( bible inerrant \) , frank 's disagreed conclusion 've criticized frank evading questions , trying explain away without addressing objections raise \( accusing hypocritical irrational , frank accusing motivated desire attack bible \) n't see hypocritical , apologize apologize , however , offended way happy \? dj
arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \( ken arromdee \) subject davidians compassion organization johns hopkins university cs dept lines 16 article sandvik 190493200420 sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) writes highly christian religious order put fire house , killing people inside way know cultists burned house could batf fbi government 's word , , people started knock search concussion grenades hardly disinterested observers first day christmas truelove served leftover turkey ! second day christmas truelove served turkey casserole made leftover turkey days 3 4 deleted flaming turkey wings ! pizza hut commercial \( tlu gic bait \) ken arromdee \( arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \)
bskendig netcom com \( brian kendig \) subject 14 apr 93 god 's promise 1 john 1 7 organization starfleet headquarters san francisco lines 33 brian lpl arizona edu \( brian ceccarelli 602 621 9615 \) writes warned , job convert job holy spirit , frankly , make lousy one testify conversion god loop decide follow jesus , indeed would , glory god 've asked god several times heart come really wish could believe , 'cos matter much confidence build , universe big place , would nice know someone watching 've gone open mind 've layed beliefs aside time time 've doubt , 've prayed see good would n't see open god , short deciding believe good reason decide believe good reason , believe god \? zeus seems like pretty cool candidate know searching , even though 've set aside pride decided want know truth matter difficult may accept , never encounter deity , christian otherwise please tell still remaining true brian kendig je ne suis fait comme aucun bskendig netcom com de ceux que j'ai vus j'ose croire n'etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent meaning life si je ne vaux pas mieux , au moins je suis autre ends rousseau
pmy vivaldi acc virginia edu \( pete yadlowsky \) subject 's next \? mormons jews \? organization university virginia lines 19 cochrane , james shapleigh writes would n't first time group committed suicide avoid shame capture persecution group killed fulfill interpretation prophecy book suite paradise , taking innocent kids along ride hardly think feds motivated persecution , koresh would surrender quietly authorities , without firing shot , get american people behind put feds hot seat , god told play tough guy 's great strength yielding , appreciate peter yadlowsky wake ! sky light ! academic computing center let us net university virginia companion keyboard pmy virginia edu basho
pmy vivaldi acc virginia edu \( pete yadlowsky \) subject 's next \? mormons jews \? organization university virginia lines 16 bill writes anyway , 've often wondered business followers christ would weapons fyi , people followers christ david koresh messiah ok , n't jesus figure somewhere beliefs \? anyway , original question regarding christians weaponry still stands peter yadlowsky wake ! sky light ! academic computing center let us net university virginia companion keyboard pmy virginia edu basho
jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) subject 's next \? mormons jews \? organization hand held products , inc lines 78 distribution world nntp posting host dale handheld com article msuinfo cl msu edu friedenb maple egr msu edu \( gedaliah friedenberg \) writes article 6rf usenet ins cwru edu , cj195 cleveland freenet edu \( john w redelfs \) writes big brother rubbed one minority religion waco , next \? mormons jews \? give break mormons fortified utah armed teeth , involved illegal activity , deserve whatever get brought \? former ussr \? innocent proven guilty jury peers , dan rather , dead country \? seems tax evasion , charge brought bds , punishable death country , \? making ludicrous suggestion really blind idiot used live country everyone enjoyed free exercise rights worship bear arms n't include right murder little children \? killing atf officers \? know much gun laws texas , koresh 's folks claimed grenades , grenade launchers , rocket launchers sure nra feels falls right bear arms sure , yet condem death \? batf stayed home , would alive , murdered \? course , jews mormons broken record happened please explain remember jews mormons \( group \) overtly breaking \( k non nazi \) law punished short memory 'll bet cult haters happy , right \? hope 're next followups dev null alternative followups set talk religion misc sleep well , tonite , heartless idiot sleep sleep simple minded shall weep country , john w redelfs , cj195 cleveland freenet edu opinions tentative pending data gedaliah friedenberg department mechanical engineering department , mechanics materials science michigan state university i'm short patience tonite , rabid dogs deserve get better treatment bds got jim jmd handheld com i'm always rethinking 's never day n't rethought ca n't bill clinton 6 april 93 american , englishman , foreign troop landed country , never would lay arms , never never never ! william pitt , earl chatham 1708 1778 18 nov 1777
jluther cs umr edu \( john w luther \) subject freemasonry southern baptist convention nntp posting host mcs213c cs umr edu organization university missouri rolla , rolla , mo lines 80 article usenet ins cwru edu ch981 cleveland freenet edu \( tony alicea \) writes southern baptist convention convening june consider charges freemasonry incompatible christianity , thought following quotes mr james holly , anti masonic flag carrier , would amuse following passages exact quotes southern baptist convention freemasonry james l holly , , president mission ministry men , inc , 550 n 10th st , beaumont , tx inside cover book states mission ministry men , inc hereby grants permission reproduction part booklet two provisions one , material changed two , source identified followed provisions freemasonry one allies devil page iv issue moderate conservative , issue god devil page vi worthwhile remember public school education america page 29 jesus christ never commanded toleration motive disciples , toleration antithesis christian message page 30 central dynamic freemason drive world unity fraternity , liberty equality toleration seen writings 'great' writers freemasonry page 31 jesus christ established sectarian possible faiths page 37 narrowness , equal lord jesus christ page 40 seems right interest toleration cousins liberty , equality fraternity actually one lies lies ' page 40 southern baptist convention many churches founded lodge corner stones dedicated lodge churches hold public ceremonies repentance praying blood name lord jesus christ church renouncing oaths taken dedication church building page 53 54 hope good laugh ! know ! g , tony appreciate narrow mindedness view expressed text quoted also appreciate amused determined ignorance without taking anything away , want say views hope sort narrow mindedness die generations promoted teach children well wet blanket mode pax john john w luther anybody mistakes jluther cs umr edu best email opinions umr 's 313 compuserve com ! n't know umr
pmy vivaldi acc virginia edu \( pete yadlowsky \) subject 's next \? mormons jews \? organization university virginia lines 17 ken arromdee writes know men federal officers \? know knock search \? yes , tell think question answers question bds n't know immediately dealing feds \( uniform , insignia \) , must figured pretty short order keep fighting \? seemed awfully ready attacked without warning peter yadlowsky wake ! sky light ! academic computing center let us net university virginia companion keyboard pmy virginia edu basho
pegasus aaa uoregon edu \( pegasus \) subject merlin , mithras magick organization group lines 21 distribution world nntp posting host fp1 dialin 1 uoregon edu article joshua bailey cpac washington edu , joshua cpac washington edu \( joshua geller \) wrote article pegasus fp1 dialin 4 uoregon edu pegasus aaa uoregon edu \( \) writes lewb lets add percentages 13 15 orphaic brought lewb group paul saul high ranking initiate lewb development orphaic mysteries , see jane lewb study greek religion cambridge u press 1922 draw lewb conclusions josh perhaps quote bit argument \? love , must bit later copy harrison packed , last chapter best rember deals mysteries views women though come say strongly christian view drawn major cults time pegasus
jmeritt mental mitre org \( jim meritt system admin \) subject identity crisis \( god satan \? \) organization utexas mail news gateway lines 5 nntp posting host cs utexas edu ii samuel 24 anger lord israel , moved david say , go , number isreal judah chronicles 21 satan stood isreal , provoked david number israel
ad354 freenet carleton ca \( james owens \) subject question popular morality organization national capital freenet , ottawa , canada lines 87 article , david terminus ericsson se \( david bold \) writes article freenet carleton ca , ad354 freenet carleton ca \( james owens \) writes seem saying , god unknowable , morality unknowable yep , 's pretty much understand , sadducees believed torah required , whereas pharisees \( ancestors modern judaism \) believed torah available interpretation lead understanding required morality nuances \( talmud \) essence biblical morality interface man yhwh \( jew christian \) necessarily indicate anything yhwh outside relationship \( although one speculate \) point i`m trying make really bible interpret , interpretation humanity guess faith comes inherent god unknowable , ca n't comment motives , would distressing allowed us misunderstand fault sanity 's sake must assume , believe , message comes somehow question whether comes immediately every individual , contained complex canon must interpreted experts consultation one another , transmitted directly appointed representatives free interpret , extend modify canon god 's message indeed mediated , problem arises whether individual stands mediated message fully clearly since responsibility understanding lies ultimately individual , must assume god benevolence guides individual appropriate source individual , person may may drink , multiple moral codes absolute moral code , think theologically questionable may absolute moral code undoubtably multiple moral codes multiple moral codes may founded absolute moral code example , parent may tell child never swear , child may assume parent never swears simply parent told child wrong , parent may swear like trooper pub bar \( children \) wrongness child parent parent may feel inappropriate swear front children may quite happy swear front animals analogy quite hold water child knows type parent \( may parent later life \) get gist \? incidentally , young child considers directive absolute gets older \( see \) learns morality example complicated age thin line morality politeness might said , swearing carry stigma today talking taking lord 's name vain serious transgression , example case hypocrisy varying moral codes absolute moral code , propositions laws code apply absolutely universally , definition conceivably moral codes could subsets universal code , say outset , example , god 's code could include , thou shalt create beings without planet live , law would inapplicable us nevertheless , would entitled suppose laws applicable us also applicable god begin ask laws might appear god 's moral code , sense absurdity question god make laws follow \? perhaps god sort category morality applied james owens ad354 freenet carleton ca ottawa , ontario , canada
muttiah ecn purdue edu \( ranjan muttiah \) subject cults \( keeps going \? \) organization purdue university engineering computer network lines 9 mr clinton said today horrible tragedy waco fiasco remind join cults dangers , began scratching head thinking \( bad sign \) , n't mainstream religions \( case christianity 7th day adventist particular \) keep guys going \? n't mr clinton condemning religion \? , n't cult \? bad thoughts
radian natinst com \( mark \) subject freemasonry southern baptist convention nntp posting host zippy radian com organization n b lines 14 article usenet ins cwru edu ch981 cleveland freenet edu \( tony alicea \) writes southern baptist convention convening june consider charges freemasonry incompatible christianity , thought following quotes mr james holly , anti masonic flag carrier , would amuse munch ! hope good laugh ! know ! g , would funny n't damn nasty non xian , 's hard believe someone pushing black white freedom slavery blatantly mark
thyagi cup portal com \( thyagi morgoth nagasiva \) subject clarification organization portal system \( tm \) distribution world lines 48 930420 thou wilt shall whole law word sin restriction kent \( sandvik newton apple com \) writes sorry , san jose based rosicrucian order called r c , n't remember time stand r c ordo rosae crucis , words latin order rose cross response yes , true entire title 'the ancient mystical order rosae located avenue , san jose , california , 0001 , usa considered different largely unrelated number sources 've seen documentation links figure h spencer lewis lewis apparently involved reuss , h ordo templi orientis many years apparently also true lewis charter form body created r c \( subsidiary \? interesting question \) kent otherwise headquarters san jose pretty decent metaphysical bookstore , interested books son loves run around egyptian museum response indeed , across street another metaphysical book store called , wherein 've purchased wonderful works crowley others ram metaphysical books , 1749 park ave , san jose , ca \( 408 \) 294 invoke stars love law , love ! frater \( \) \( \)
e p unl edu \( edgar pearlstein \) subject cults \( keeps going \? \) organization university nebraska lincoln lines 20 distribution world nntp posting host unlinfo unl edu muttiah ecn purdue edu \( ranjan muttiah \) writes mr clinton said today horrible tragedy waco fiasco remind join cults dangers , began scratching head thinking \( bad sign \) , n't mainstream religions \( case christianity 7th day adventist particular \) keep guys going \? n't mr clinton condemning religion \? , n't cult \? good point helps keep things going public attitude one faith authority high subjected mere reason couple variety personality quirks , minor mental illnesses , ego would leaders , get variety cults religions people subscribe
nntp posting host byu edu lines 24 stephan byu edu \( stephan \) subject lds mormons true church \? organization byu article acsu buffalo edu psyrobtw ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( robert weiss \) writes psyrobtw ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( robert weiss \) subject lds mormons true church \? date 20 apr 93 06 29 00 gmt mormon church true church \? lots stuff intellectual errors deleted cute , see statement telling church true church presume know least believe true attempting faith without replacing something better real good way loose person completely christ greatest reason see attacks motivated love seek destroy building replacing belief something christ guided instructed n't seek destroy faith found , redirected see people say love insert favorite group laugh irony please excuse nice say oh , btw robert n't take personally , post merely
m23364 mwunix mitre org \( james meritt \) subject see \? \( apology jim meritt \( silence concurance \) nntp posting host mwunix mitre org organization mitre corporation , mclean va distribution usa lines 45 article blue cis pitt edu joslin pogo isp pitt edu \( david joslin \) writes m23364 mwunix mitre org \( james meritt \) writes stop dodging question hypocritical criticizing bad arguments , given agree conclusion disagree conclusion \? one claimed possess fruits precognition , telepathy , divine another dodge oh well i'm match amazing red herrings smoke screens asked apology i'm going apologize pointing straw man argument straw man argument saying list bible contradictions shows low standards scholarship embarrassment anti , josh mcdowell embarrassment fundies objecting various times taking quotes context pointing excuse calling red herrings smoke screens following inaccurate , unsubstantiated accusations blue cis pitt edu jim threatening threat produced realized display telepathy threatening quote spite threat produced , forecast ever happening \( precognition \? \) responding jim 's threat quote spite claimed threat never given jim , preparing spite never happening telepathy precognition \? jim , still mystified unsubstantiated untrue telepathy \? maybe \? jim , still unsubstantiated seems habit trouble reality , appears get bothered facts appear products divination methods \? yawn
brian lpl arizona edu \( brian ceccarelli 602 621 9615 \) subject 14 apr 93 god 's promise 1 john 1 7 organization lunar planetary laboratory , tucson az lines 30 said merlyn , missed point christianity relationship relationship god know consider mother merlyn know mother would think asserted mother 9 feet tall , murdered father , sexually abused kid \? would , knows mother well , think blind arrogant idiot proclaim things \? merlyn leroy says analogy good example , plenty people know god well , n't agree things like 1 \) many children 2 \) whether approves polygamy 3 \) whether mohammed one prophets , people absolutely know god like ca n't agree basic attributes like , least one knows god thing like must wrong therefore , subjective certainty worthless regarding knowledge god hand , n't know large groups people claim absolute knowledge mother disagree basic attributes difference real people imaginary friends , therefore logic , since people disagree characteristics mother , mother must imaginary
mlee post royalroads ca \( malcolm lee \) subject 's next \? mormons jews \? organization royal roads military college , victoria , b c lines 26 article murdoch acc virginia edu , pmy vivaldi acc virginia edu \( pete yadlowsky \) writes anyway , 've often wondered business followers christ would weapons peter yadlowsky wake ! sky light ! academic computing center let us net university virginia companion keyboard pmy virginia edu basho imo , christian need weapons know contrary american nra right bear arms , christians rely strength god protect note say inherently insecure feel proper justification armed teeth christian rely physical weapons defend christian rely faith intelligence instance , faith god protect god also gave intelligence know go walking dark alley night jump cliff say god save would putting god test test god \? god , malcolm lee \)
oryx com \( stephen l favor \) subject biblical backing koresh 's 3 02 tape \( cites enclosed \) organization oryx energy lines 7 nntp posting host oryx com x newsreader tin 1 1 pl5 seems koresh yet another messenger got killed message carried \( says nothing character messenger \) reckon 'll find rest hard way koresh killed wanted lots illegal guns
subject biblical backing koresh 's 3 02 tape \( cites enclosed \) kmcvay oneb almanac bc ca \( ken mcvay \) organization old frog 's almanac lines 20 article 20apr199301460499 utarlg uta edu b645zaw utarlg uta edu \( stephen \) writes seems koresh yet another messenger got killed message carried \( says nothing seems , barring evidence contrary , koresh simply another deranged fanatic thought neccessary take whole bunch folks , children , satisfy delusional mania jim jones , circa 1993 mean time , sure learned lot evil corruption surprised things gotten rotten \? nope like koresh demonstrating evil corruption centuries old frog 's almanac salute old frog hisse'f , ryugen fisher \( 604 \) 245 3205 \( v32 \) \( 604 \) 245 4366 \( 2400x4 \) sco xenix 2 3 2 gt ladysmith , british columbia , canada serving central vancouver island public access usenet internet mail home holocaust almanac
brian lpl arizona edu \( brian ceccarelli 602 621 9615 \) subject good jesus died \? organization lunar planetary laboratory , tucson az lines 138 article netcom com bskendig netcom com \( brian kendig \) writes maintain people want enter light knowledge alone masters , fear afraid face world terms , choice , remain darkness , sort like bugs rock however , people , many , like darkness sometimes gets cold dark comfortable people crawl rock , , although blinded first , get accustomed light enjoy warmth , , see things really , also see heights reach , places go , learn choose paths world , learn mistakes revel successes master \? habits cannot break \? one , seem unable master lack desire understand even slightest concept bible seems ignorance sexual sins \? gotta secret desires head harbor get control \? women walk past \? degrade sex object head \? master kind thinking \? insult people unknowingly , regret later yet next time opportunity presents \? truly master \? admitted master thought life times sometimes say things want say , repeat mistake admitted cannot control every aspect times know n't say something , say anyway times simply forget lesson , fact , master need help jesus promised help took offer willfully let jesus master jesus knows better \? creator know creation better creation \? toyota know 's better corolla corolla \? see point \? think 're one rock , i'm getting great tan sunlight life improved since abandoned theism come join ! difficult trip first , build muscles long hike , 's well worth ! guess ignorance bliss brian , enjoy clue bible n't see \? i'm going accept anything ca n't witness eyes experience senses , especially something mega powerful 're trying get accept surely believe strongly , must good reason , n't \? witness motherly love senses \? caring concern register senses \? nothing registers see , taste , smell , hear touch , better become vulcan fast better get rid emotions good reason believe say \? say would rather cease existing instead subject whims deity , deity decided toss fiery pits , topic god lack knowledge god says god says cease existing life forever choose either live hell eternal torment communication whatsoever , choose live paradise god god says issue made theism made 's wishful thinking nope people christian people fond feeling imperfect , believing world undesirable place , magical mystical prayers make world nice holy , priests tell , like good little sheep enjoy darkness , 're proud religion kendigianism \? people christian people , including christians , fond feeling imperfect world place doctrine kendigianism \? nothing god magical mystical prayers part worship \? mine n't kendigianism believe world holy \? mine n't kendigianism also dictate one must obey priest tells like good little sheep \? mine n't bunch lies tell justify ignorant bible \? brian , following christ nothing doctrines kendigianism would find doctrines bible n't follow kendigianism follow christ also , try show ignorance christ bible regards priests , read sole melchizedek priest hebrews 7 8 \? read purpose old testament levitical priesthood priests today \? yes , guess \? catholics messed follow catholicism ism follow christ nope make decisions , enjoy successes , accept failures die content life 've led reflect back final moments , 've led good life would want live good life \? , die 's n't contradict reason live good life n't good end life n't anybody else good either everyone dies anyway reason lead good life leading good life meaningless meaningless thing \? i'm sorry , n't feel sacrificing jesus something god 'd worship would , unless sacrifice temporary , case 's really important resurrection sunk \? jesus alive jesus dead jesus old testament system every detail jesus 's death like seed needed fall ground many new lives would take root miss entire john passage well \? forget bible minute forget quoting verses , forget said show picture wide open , convince 're right forget person forget know type forget know put sentence together forget know send e mail forget existence exist honest
brian lpl arizona edu \( brian ceccarelli 602 621 9615 \) subject biblical backing koresh 's 3 02 tape \( cites enclosed \) organization lunar planetary laboratory , tucson az lines 8 article 20apr199301460499 utarlg uta edu b645zaw utarlg uta edu \( stephen \) writes think david koresh n't solid structure , sound biblical backing hour long tape broadcast , 've enclosed partial list sources cites quotes exactly used christian sermon , 's pretty good , inspired david koresh born bethlehem \?
jmeritt mental mitre org \( jim meritt system admin \) subject keep firm foundations ! organization utexas mail news gateway lines 6 nntp posting host cs utexas edu job 26 7 north empty place , earth upon nothing job 38 4 wast thou laid foundations earth \? declare , thou hast understanding
jburrill boi hp com \( jim burrill \) subject disillusioned protestant finds christ organization idaho river country , salmon , , , boise , selway , priest x newsreader tin version 1 1 8 pl6 lines 31 john w redelfs \( cj195 cleveland freenet edu \) wrote mormon believe christ , alive raised text deleted learned concept holy trinity never taught jesus christ , agreed council long christ ascended , men authority speak jesus never taught concept trinity , deal following mat 28 18 jesus came said , authority heaven earth given mat 28 19 therefore go make disciples nations , baptizing name father son holy spirit , mat 28 20 teaching obey everything commanded surely always , end age also jesus speaking act 1 5 john baptized water , days baptized holy spirit believe may overlooked key verses , crucial christian faith jim burrill jburrill boi hp com
m23364 mwunix mitre org \( james meritt \) subject silence concurance nntp posting host mwunix mitre org organization mitre corporation , mclean va distribution usa lines 15 case , eyes law , someone aware something capability taking action , individual may held responsible action \? example driver getaway car may held murder n't know defense spawned ignorance law excuse individual held material witness crime , criminal charge individual \? , grounds person imprisoned \? james w meritt m23364 mwunix mitre org jmeritt mitre org opinions mine anyone else wants share , fine may say wish facts belong noone simply
jburrill boi hp com \( jim burrill \) subject question islamic view organization idaho river country , salmon , , , boise , selway , priest x newsreader tin version 1 1 8 pl6 lines 8 question regarding islamic view towards homosexuality came discussion group participate , 'd like ask question , islamic view towards homosexuality \? jim burrill jburrill boi hp com
cj195 cleveland freenet edu \( john w redelfs \) subject disillusioned protestant finds christ organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 22 reply cj195 cleveland freenet edu \( john w redelfs \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu previous article , tom tredysvr tredydev unisys com \( tom albrecht \) says article usenet ins cwru edu cj195 cleveland freenet edu \( john w redelfs \) writes learned god loves children never heard plan redeeming , even died without knowledge christ learned man cannot frustrate justice repenting death bed repentance feeling remorse requires faith christ proven following , keeping commandments cannot accomplished ones deathbed jesus must lied thief cross paradise salvation thing salvation better refer john 14 2 tom albrecht john w redelfs , cj195 cleveland freenet edu opinions tentative pending data
subject lds rick 's reply librba byuvm bitnet organization brigham young university lines 95 article 497 acsu buffalo edu , psyrobtw ubvmsd cc buffalo edu \( robert weiss \) says briefly , something mentioned passing refer differing interpretations create , say many christians may agree \? really irrelevant base faith many people think one way another , \? bottom line truth , regardless popularity opinions i'm sorry , thought discussing heresy assumed heresy meant departure orthodoxy , case generally accepted belief indeed important issue case , definition word create great importance , since creation issue discussed also , find rather strange trying persuade created eternally existent equivalent , say granted mormon belief ca n't grant conclusion expect point addressed order reply issue , address answer point raised , jump conclusion grant said given mormon belief disagree mormon belief creation function organization eternally existent substance one ex creation , important point bible states lucifer created bible states jesus creator contradiction lds belief jesus lucifer correction interpret bible mean something specific terms mormon belief children god literally nothing symbolic however , contradicts bible says bible teaches everyone child god always cracks anti mormons presume tell mormons believe mormons , fact , believe people , including christ lucifer , children god sense created \( organized whatever \) also believe offspring god symbolic sense applied spiritually born thus word used convey different meanings language works , robert , 's making someone offender word dangerous really red herring n't address issue raised , rather , seeks obfuscate fact groups try read something bible , n't change bible teaches first look bible see teaches discount , even address , bible teaches groups differing views self see bible teaches , look bible contrary , robert , red herring show rely wholly bible cannot seem agree says say one must simply look bible see teaches , centuries people one really sure says believe one really understands scriptures \? find rather curious mentioned mormon belief jesus needed saved , put forward quotes late apostle , bruce mcconkie curious part one addressed issue needing saved ' rick comes closest conclusions addressing point let clarify one time refer mormon belief jesus needed saved , rather mcconkie 's belief keep trying point bruce mcconkie source mormon doctrine , keep ignoring \( see \) replies instead hop issue bruce mcconkie whether views doctrine ' n't think matters mcconkie 's views canon issue mcconkie 's writings indicative mormon belief subject real issue indication rick may certainly contrary , robert , quoting mcconkie 's words mormon canon question whether canon great importance fact whether indicate general mormon belief would interviewing large number mormons robert weiss psyrobtw ubvms cc buffalo edu rick anderson librba byuvm bitnet
hudson athena cs uga edu \( paul hudson jr \) subject part 1 part 2 \( homosexuality \) organization university georgia , athens lines 80 article juts ccc amdahl com rich bellacera amail amdahl com writes perhaps n't get , maybe never many n't get middle ages proclaimed god 's done massacred thousands witch inquisitions many injustices middle ages truely sad would hate see day churches put people death practicing homosexuality , crime church called take governments world may homosexuals treated cruelly today , mean teach christians practice homosexual immorality think also teach christians practice divination witches middle ages persecuted major flaw posturing end , final effect posts like mr hudson conditional love gays condition change 'll love sure strange coming group claim god unconditional love , one calls people accuse judging \? look heart see love writing teach christians practice homosexual immorality , pretend divine knowledge look heart ca n't say love homosexuals ca n't say love neighbor either n't know many homosexuals jesus loves homosexuals , loves everyone else love conditional , know yes show love homosexuals , love encourage brothers church stumble continue sin damaging dangerous thing results passing amendment colorado created organization 's posters appearing colorado called r g h \( forget whole definition hand , last part immoral gross homosexual trash \) motto working fag free america implicit violence sick , seems mr hudson , others embracing slander could easily say nambla able implement legislation make child molesting easier tearing societies morality due people accepting homosexuality normal , embracing believe homosexual sex immoral , mean endorse using violence problem hatred church also problem called mercy many conservative churches seen moral breakdown country storm horizon , gotten militant flesh truely sad yet others churches embraced immorality society , pointed conservative churches justify actions n't stick positive find ways bring people jesus taking driving away \? certainly use drive people jesus n't water gospel draw people jesus n't go way show might considered positive aspects draw people told one man sell told another say good bye family words hard times present people cost tower allow begin construction many people already gospel link hudson whatever rich \(
edm twisto compaq com \( ed mccreary \) subject federal hearing reply dmcgee uluhe soest hawaii edu 's message fri , 16 apr 1993 04 21 09 gmt organization compaq computer corp distribution usa lines 19 fri , 16 apr 1993 04 21 09 gmt , dmcgee uluhe soest hawaii edu \( mcgee \) said dm fact rumor \? madalyn murray o'hare atheist eliminated dm use bible reading prayer public schools 15 years ago dm going appear fcc petition stop reading dm gospel america also campaigning remove dm christmas programs , songs , etc public schools true dm mail federal communications commission 1919 h street washington dc dm expressing opposition request reference petition number dm false story going around years 's drop truth note n't care o'hare \( o'hair \? \) , one thing 's guilty ed mccreary , edm twisto compaq com , laughter , would tao \( \) ' \( \)
aurora cc monash edu au \( andrew bulhak \) subject 666 mark beast need info organization monash university x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl6 lines 14 \( uicvm uic edu \) wrote marian catholic high school , outside chicago 666 south avenue actually , satanism technically inverted catholicism andrew bulhak n sound richard yoyo cc monash edu au hitting ground monash uni , clayton , angry usenet victoria , australia posters
joslin pogo isp pitt edu \( david joslin \) subject silence concurance distribution usa organization intelligent systems program lines 80 missing context discussion jim , jim wrote following e mail pointed \( jim \) taken quote context r robert weiss writes promise psalm 9 10 gee , since would n't hypocritical , must really busy arguing context extracted translations ! directed similar accusation hypocrisy , based lack response article robert weiss , toward stephen pointed , fact , agree robert weiss jim meritt took quotes context hence , find difficult understand jim thinks hypocrite needless say , n't time reply every article r takes quote context asked jim following , according , jim , way criticize one person taking quote context , without hypocrite , post response every person r takes quote context \? jim replied saying either ask assert \? today find four articles jim , one subject silence m23364 mwunix mitre org \( james meritt \) writes case , eyes law , someone aware something capability taking action , individual may held responsible action \? , course , complete red herring taking quotes context n't crime n't time read every article r , i'm certainly obligation reply silence imply jim thinks n't respond weiss' articles must condone weiss' taking quotes context \? jim n't want give direct answer question read written decide back context conversation jim jim 's next claim using inductive logic concluded hypocrite challenged provide details logic led incorrect conclusion today find another obscure article \( posting twice n't help make clear , jim \) , titled inductive logic scenario white goose waddles past door white goose waddles past door white goose waddles past door \( repeat uncountably large number times \) black goose waddles past door individual hits axe 1 given population geese uncountably large , size confidence interval decision undetermined , conditions could decision upon behavior individual towards white geese made \? 2 black geese observed axed , valid question concerned different behavior black white geese \? red herrings could jim mean read uncountably large number articles \? could jim mean axed articles , weiss' articles , wants conclude well , ca n't see going help induction 've written roughly 80 articles since january vast majority discussions frank decenso , take position making bad arguments discussions jim meritt take position making bad arguments \( straw man argument earlier , taking quotes context recently \) think hard jim see pattern \? think harder run induction engine see pops dj
nyikos math scarolina edu \( peter nyikos \) subject spreading christianity \( christian extremist kills doctor \) organization usc department computer science lines 24 addressed key issues long \( 284 lines \) post dean kaflowitz two posts yesterday first made title post new thread , dean kaflowitz terminally irony impaired \? second , serious one appeared along thread post , challenge , revised talk abortion , posting contents talk religion misc soon exit enough us thrash next week second post really main bones contention us first tells things tm , continues rack talk abortion talk religion misc , setting follow ups talk abortion alone lame excuse latter policy gets prompt set follow ups , follow talk religion misc much suggests hypocritical also setting newsgroups line talk abortion alone peter nyikos
nyikos math scarolina edu \( peter nyikos \) subject spreading christianity \( christian extremist kills doctor \) organization usc department computer science lines 146 key issues 284 line post following dealt following post made talk abortion yesterday , modified correct next last paragraph message id nyikos milo math scarolina edu references nyikos milo math scarolina edu nyikos milo math scarolina edu 1993apr13 cbnewsj cb att com 1993apr13 cbnewsj cb att com decay cbnewsj cb att com \( dean kaflowitz \) writes article nyikos milo math scarolina edu , nyikos math scarolina edu \( peter nyikos \) writes cs brown edu cs brown edu \( john bates \) writes article nyikos milo math scarolina edu nyikos math scarolina edu \( peter nyikos \) writes perhaps dedication convictions never , never , thought would consciously intellectually dishonest , though show anything would lead think otherwise \? see spreading christianity thread , says ignore certain statements specifically acknowledged dean called great commission descriptive jesus 's words matt 10 15 matt 10 14 , jerusalem bible translation anyone welcome listen say , walk house town shake dust feet matt 10 15 tell , day judgment go hard land sodom gomorrah town post dean referring , said good description kaflowitz , keeps harping shaking dust feet ignoring christ said next highlighted words refer matt 10 14 10 15 respectively dean countered actually , comment 's perfect example intellectually dishonest little , since specifically acknowledged great commission spread word fact , combination two statements addressing , one , characterize ignoring instruction spread word good example dishonest little fellow course , matt 10 15 quoted makes mention instruction spread word quotes btw message id 1993apr13 3400 cbnewsj cb att com , end , claims answer question answered , deleted \( get chronology right , deleted answer said n't answer \) claim correctly , question went , , measure goodness post entertainment value , care whit mundane things truth falsehood \? closest dean came answer peter , peter , peter 're stupid , , dull , generally unworthy value place sport course , answer question , posts general posts particular surely even dean knows , yet asserts otherwise , claim insult restore answer question deleted 're still unable figure , ask nice kid local junior high help really n't take much sophistication understand top , doubt answer representative dean 's true frame mind insults seen quoted thus far small sample stream dean 's mind throughout 284 line post quotes taken one wonders whether dean 's mind warped find sport even falsified account events transpired earlier another thread made ass claiming tradition lent make public announcements sins individuals false said tradition recall atone one 's sins made public announcements sins others sins , btw , matter public record , documented posts others different matter many individuals involved nearly amoral see sins morally upright people see sins , pointed expressly set whole thread , turn , let people point sins dean made ass saying statement tradition somehow attempt paint jews plaster saints , thereby revealing inability understand discussion well showing dislike people saying positive things jews , show intellectual dishonesty repeatedly ignoring simple argument made , claiming ignoring argument acknowledge actually , happened dean made seem like jew gave acts charity public hypocrite according jewish customs , jewish customs almost demanding , well implicitly slandering jews make public acts charity went easily dean , giving benefit doubt post following initial crack plaster saints , suggesting merely careless wording astonishing act , dean serves incredibly distorted picture took place us , using basis one insult another peter nyikos
smithw col hp com \( walter smith \) subject part 1 part 2 \( homosexuality \) organization colorado springs center lines 23 nntp posting host fajita19 cs itc hp com hudson athena cs uga edu \( paul hudson jr \) writes article juts ccc amdahl com rich bellacera amail amdahl com writes n't stick positive find ways bring people jesus taking driving away \? certainly use drive people jesus n't water gospel draw people well put , case someone calls christian brother yet continues sin \( claims sin sin , perfectly acceptable \) , done \? christians ignore sinful lifestyle order offend person \? lifestyle sinful according bible , using drive people jesus \? frankly , find occurance homosexual christian attempting pass christian order christians accept better lot serious people bible teaches homosexuality sin walter
mcelwre cnsvax uwec edu subject divine masters organization university wisconsin eau claire lines 208 divine masters christians would agree , correctly , jesus christ divine master , projection god physical world , god incarnate important related facts christians completely ignorant , followers world religions first , jesus christ unique , john 3 16 standing always least one divine master \( god incarnate \) physically alive world times , continuous succession throughout history , life jesus followers masters founded world 's major religions , usually perverting teachings master process christians , example , added threats eternal damnation hell , deleted teaching reincarnation secondly , importantly , particular master physically dies leaves world , nothing anybody except relatively people initiated still physically alive \( simply way god set things universes \) therefore , christians worship jesus , pray jesus , expect jesus return save sins , kidding , allowed duped religion mostly manufactured romans emotional feelings totally deceiving indicator religious validity things similarly true followers major world religions , including islam thirdly , primary function master tune initiates audible life stream sound current , \( referred word john 1 1 5 , river life revelation 22 1 \) , personally guide thru upper levels heaven still connected living physical bodies silver cord true salvation , completes soul 's cycles reincarnation physical psychic planes , achieved reaching least soul plane , five levels universes physical universe , cannot done without help physically living divine master one divine master alive today american , sri harold , living eck master eckankar organization , headquartered minneapolis , \( p box zip \) another divine master singh ji , living , india , associated mat organization one classic books subject path masters \( books , p box 242 , , ca \) , written 1939 dr julian johnson , theologian surgeon spent last years life india studying closely observing mat master time , singh ji several eckankar books , including authored sri paul sri harold , found public university libraries book stores , obtained thru inter library loan book eckankar key secret worlds , sri paul , another classic many christians likely confuse masters anti christ , temporary world dictator called last days masters n't ever rule , even asked expected jesus people continue following christianity , islam , orthodox religions physically dead master , continue cycles reincarnation , psychic planes miserable physical world , finally accept initiation physically living divine master incarnation book hereafter , ruth montgomery , describes several kinds evidence supporting reincarnation fact life , including past lives 50 accurate mind sometimes makes things , especially bad , spontaneous recall \( especially young children , identify recent previous relatives , homes , possessions , etc \) , dream recall past life , deja vu \( familiarity far land travel ing first time vacation \) , psychic read late edgar , even supporting statements christian bible including matthew 17 11 13 \( john baptist reincarnation elias \) john 9 1 2 \( person possibly sin born , unless lived \? ! \) always use king james version later versions per versions ! strong interests , innate talents , strong phobias , etc , typically originate person 's past lives example , strong fear swimming traveling water usually results drowned end previous life sometimes person take immediate dislike another person met first time life , bad encounter previous incarnation teaching reincarnation also includes law karma \( galatians 6 7 , revelation 13 10 , etc \) people would behave much better toward knew actions present surely reaped future , future incarnation ! 2nd divine master physically dies \( translates \) particular initiate , initiate physically dies \( translates \) , master meet astral level take directly soul plane one correct meaning 2nd coming individual experience , something happens everyone people still waiting jesus' 2nd coming waiting vain planes existence physical universe lowest least dozen major levels existence physical plane astral plane , causal plane , mental plane , plane \( often counted upper part mental plane \) , soul plane , several higher spiritual planes soul plane first true heaven , \( counting upward physical \) planes \( including \) physical soul planes called psychic planes likely esp , telepathy , influences , effects , biological transmutations see 1972 book title , phenomena without apparent physical origin , result interactions psychic planes physical plane major planes also sub divided example , sub plane astral plane called hades , christian hell occupies small part , created less 2000 years ago early catholic church kind black magic simply teaching existence threatening manner christian heaven located elsewhere astral plane good christians go short reincarnate back earth sound current vs blind faith christian religion demands followers extraordinary amount blind faith backed little good feeling \( totally deceiving \) person hearing form sound current \( word , , audible life stream \) , cycles reincarnation miserable world continue sound current manifests differently different initiates , sound like rushing wind , ocean waves sea shore , buzzing bees , higher pitched buzzing sound , flute , various heavenly music , sounds eckankar , members start hearing near end first year member experiences \( soul travel \) replace blind faith information , answers questions , etc , please consult cited sources \( 3 books , 2 addresses \) un altered reproduction dissemination important information encouraged robert e mcelwaine 2nd initiate eckankar , \( agent thereof \)
joshua cpac washington edu \( joshua geller \) subject rosicrucian order \( \) \? ! organization institute study ancient science lines 29 distribution world sandvik sandvik kent apple com usenet ins cwru edu nntp posting host bailey cpac washington edu reply ch981 cleveland freenet edu 's message 17 apr 1993 20 31 11 gmt article usenet ins cwru edu ch981 cleveland freenet edu \( tony alicea \) writes kent say 4 10 competing rosicrucian orders existing today , spin offs oto competing organizations 19th century france germany maybe write article please n't ! huh \? might interesting relating story heard , btw , spent time investigating organizations conceptual world view systems name three really competing rosicrucian orders probably spent time none spin offs opposite may case huh \? care back \? josh
joshua cpac washington edu \( joshua geller \) subject merlin , mithras magick organization institute study ancient science lines 30 distribution world joshua bailey cpac washington edu pegasus fp1 dialin 1 uoregon edu nntp posting host bailey cpac washington edu reply pegasus aaa uoregon edu 's message 20 apr 1993 18 43 14 gmt article pegasus fp1 dialin 1 uoregon edu pegasus aaa uoregon edu \( pegasus \) writes article joshua bailey cpac washington edu , joshua cpac washington edu \( joshua geller \) wrote article pegasus fp1 dialin 4 uoregon edu pegasus aaa uoregon edu \( \) writes lewb lets add percentages 13 15 orphaic brought lewb group paul saul high ranking initiate lewb development orphaic mysteries , see jane lewb study greek religion cambridge u press 1922 draw lewb conclusions josh perhaps quote bit argument \? love , must bit later copy harrison packed , last chapter best rember deals mysteries views women though come say strongly christian view drawn major cults time would really appreciate someone brought something like n't back someone asked details day , josh
clavazzi nyx cs du edu \( doge \) subject davidians compassion x disclaimer nyx public access unix system run university denver denver community university neither control responsibility opinions users organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept lines 24 article blaze cs jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \( ken arromdee \) writes article sandvik 190493200420 sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) writes highly christian religious order put fire house , killing people inside way know cultists burned house could batf fbi government 's word , , people started knock search concussion grenades hardly disinterested observers , point obvious , deluded , siege mentality followers religious nut case thought jesus christ possibly big guy personally , much regard batf fbi , 'll take word bunch silly enough lock like david koresh makeshift arsenal doge south st louis dobbs approved media conspirator \( tm \) one step beyond sundays , 3 5 pm 88 1 fm st louis community radio 'll pay know really think ! j r bob dobbs
kilroy gboro rowan edu \( dr nancy 's sweetie \) subject freemasonry southern baptist convention summary update events keywords update , report , ! ' organization rowan college new jersey disclaimer sometime tonight , brandy turn 11 years old e mail presents \( likes rawhide toys \) address lines 73 recent developments dispute masonry among southern baptists posted summary bit listserv christia , suppose might useful note necessarily agree disagree follows present information short summary southern baptist named larry holly wrote book claiming freemasonry religion incompatible christianity \( mr holly 's father rejects christianity , mr holly blames masons \) sbc 's home missions board includes witness department , studies religions teach christ years ago , ordered produce report masonry concluded religion , therefore outside speciality however , mr holly led movement people oppose masonry , last year convention ordered study masonry \( got feeling saying got wrong answer last time , try better get answer want \) anyway , 's bit inappropriate actions , dust settled report nobody entirely happy , everybody seems willing live sides saying things best going get current environment report masons charity work , hospitals burn centers operate , well efforts help elderly prevent drug abuse report acknowledges many well known christians masons , notes many teachings masonry supportive christian faith practice examples latter include belief god , honesty integrity , masonic lodges incorporate explicit christian beliefs hand , note aspects masonry incompatible southern baptist principles included use titles people consider sacrilegious , taking certain oaths \( even though meant seriously \) , pagan writings masonic leaders , implication masonic writings salvation achieved good works , racial discrimination practiced many masonic lodges \( note baptist churches whole n't really place speak last point \) report concludes masonry religion , says membership endorsed , left discretion individuals part variation among different masonic lodges , one may include elements strongly christianity , another may many southern baptists strong convictions priesthood believer autonomy local church , history probably influenced report came information gleaned religious herald , publication baptist general association virginia , baptists today , direct links religious organisation \( autonomy big issue among baptists 8 \) neither report , whatever masonic documents relevant issues , none comes guarantee mileage may vary void prohibited darren f provine kilroy gboro rowan edu milton use finest baby frogs , dew picked flown iraq , cleansed finest quality spring water , lightly killed , sealed swiss smooth treble cream milk chocolate envelope frosted glucose 's may , 's still frog
rjk world std com \( robert j kolker \) subject odds ends keywords cheap shots christianity organization world public access unix , brookline , lines 46 cheap shots christianity riddle shortest street jerusalem \? answer street righteous poles archeologist found amazing fossil way bent knot end penis paul apostle christianity hits spot twelve apostles thats lot jesus christ virgin christianity 's faith \( apologies pepsi cola famous \) riddle many christians take save light bulb answer none , jesus save jesus saves moses proof jesus jewish 1 lived home till 33 2 went fathers business 3 thought mother virgin 4 mother thought god qed long bob kolker would rather spend eternity hell interesting people eternity heaven christians ca n't love constitution , least hate government
digi lonestar org \( gerry palo \) subject ignorance bliss , good jesus died \? organization dsc communications corp , plano , tx lines 20 article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) writes article quack kfu com , pharvey quack kfu com \( paul harvey \) wrote article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) writes ignorance bliss ! ignorance strength ! help spread truth ignorance ! huh , ignorance strength , wo n't distribute piece information want follow advice \( contradiction \) cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net quoting big brother orwell 's 1984
pharvey quack kfu com \( paul harvey \) subject magi matthew jewish discomfort jesus organization duck pond public unix 1 408 249 9630 , log 'guest' lines 238 article fidonet org bill carlson p0 n104 z1 fidonet org \( bill carlson \) writes since everywhere look , zoroaster suggested probable descendant daniel suppose prove n't ref encyclopedia religion , magi sneak preview later still , eschatology fertile meeting ground iranian judeo christian religions , seen famous oracles , work whose iranian roots undeniable likely dates beginning christian era , probably second century ce \( , 1968 \) zoroastrian doctrine savior future \( saoshyant \) basis story coming magi bethlehem gospel matthew \( 2 1 12 \) old persian word , rendered greek , uncertain etymology may originally meant member tribe , avestan compound \( hostile member tribe \) meaning would , among medes , member priestly tribe perhaps priest \( , 1938 boyce , 1982 \) term probably median origin , given herodotus mentions one six tribes medes variety reasons consider magi members priestly tribe median origin western iran among persians , responsible liturgical functions , well maintaining knowledge holy occult likely , supremacy median priesthood western iran became established time median monarchy dominated persians end eighth century first half sixth century bce revolt cyrus great \( 550 bce \) persians medes political civil institutions well even hypotheses advanced concerning existence magi persian origin achaemenid period \( boyce , 1982 \) , must still maintain median origin demonstrated revolt , mentioned darius \( 522 486 bce \) inscription \( iran \) , well greek sources indeed , herodotus insists idea power medes persians conspiracy magi fact magi may members tribe handed arts hereditary fashion naturally exclude possibility undertook secular seems attested tablets , put forth messina , denies magi members ethnic group suggesting simply members priesthood priesthood purely zoroastrian origin thesis untenable hand , hypothesis name related avestan term , derived \( vedic , , gift \) , without foundation \( mole , 1963 \) meaning probably found , conformity pahlavi tradition , within context concept purity , separation mixture two opposed principles spirit matter , erroneously interpreted chorus , root , said mean sing magic song \( , 1966 \) rendered simply expression like , seems ecstatic condition opens mind spiritual vision case , though may relation old persian term avestan terms , must maintain clear distinction magi avestan priesthood avesta ignores median old persian term , despite recent hypothesis proposed h w bailey old persian inscriptions ignore avestan term priest , \( vedic , \) , even perhaps present setting tablets \( , 1964 \) term present zoroastrianism throughout history pahlavi terms represent continuation latter particular derives older form , \( head magi \) sasanid period \( third seventh centuries ce \) , saw formation organized church , title \( high priest high priests \) came used designate summit ecclesiastical hierarchy magi practiced marriage , \( av , \) also performed characteristic funeral rite exposure corpse animals remove flesh thereby cleanse corpse supposed , lest contaminated demons practice later became typical entire zoroastrian community led rise complex funeral ritual iran among india stone towers , known , built especially rite time herodotus practice exposure corpse vogue among magi persians generally corpse wax , buried practice widespread , however , among peoples central asia magi technicians experts worship impossible offer sacrifices without presence magus performance ritual sacrifice , magus sang \( magi possibly tradition sacred poetry , know nothing relationship tradition various parts avesta \) called upon interpret dreams divine future magi also known practice killing harmful , , animals \( \) snakes ants dressed median style , wearing pants , , coats sleeves wore characteristic head covering felt \( gr \) strips sides could used cover nose mouth rituals avoid contaminating consecrated objects breath \( boyce , 1982 \) color caps , conformity tradition probably indo european origin , according , priesthood white likelihood , achaemenid period magi possession well defined body doctrine , probable gradually adopted zoroastrianism likely clergy consisting professional priests tied rigid orthodoxy naturally inclined nonetheless , must jealous guardians traditions virtue educators royal princes responsible teaching prince magic zarathushtra , son thus cult gods magi virtues entrusted education prince would learn , courageous , master achaemenid period magi maintained position great influence , although certainly subordinate emperor despite several dramatic events massacre suffered death , according herodotus \( calls \) , persians killed large number magi avenge usurpation magi nevertheless managed maintain influence court media , persia , various regions empire stationed consequence persian civilian military administration priesthood antiquity famous magi renowned followers zarathushtra \( zoroaster \) teachers greatest greek thinkers \( pythagoras , , plato \) wise men arrived , guided star , manger newborn savior bethlehem cult sun india also known , priesthood babylon , known perhaps reason term sense greek , like goes , expert magic arts \( , 1938 \) indeed , experts types magical arts , especially astrology , reputation wisdom well knowledge understand reasons various sometimes views , necessary distinguish magi iran proper called western magi , later achaemenid period must least part zoroastrian , western magi \( iranian diaspora asia minor , syria , , armenia \) , came contact diverse religious traditions , must , sooner later varying degrees , influenced concepts greeks familiar kinds magi , depending varying concerns , would emphasize one aspect classical historians , including herodotus , document customs , philosophers dwell doctrines dualism , belief hereafter , , theology eschatology sources interested doctrines magi even speak zarathushtra magus repeating magi said median achaemenid periods , adopted zoroastrianism time embraced zarathushtra one placed venerable name zoroastrianism already undergone several profound transformations eastern community time already elements archaic religion refused die said quite often , attempt characterize precise role magi zoroastrian tradition , \( vi data , law \) , part avesta , attributed \( collection texts various periods primarily concerned rules practices \) nonetheless , hypothesis hardly plausible , since first chapter list sixteen lands created ahura mazda , supreme god zoroastrianism , contaminated attack \( avestan , mainyu \) , supreme god ultimate source evil suffering mention western iran , persia , media \( land mentioned text cannot median \) furthermore , noted \( , 1964 \) authors magi absence reference western iranian institutions , including priesthood , would strange magi means zoroastrian tradition corpus avesta transmitted us , second half first millennium bce principal merit attribute directly magi new formulation iranian dualism assumed , known us especially greek sources , part , pahlavi literature ninth tenth centuries ce according formulation , two poles dualism longer , gathas , mainyu \( spirit \) mainyu \( hostile spirit \) ahura mazda mainyu \( , 1964 \) see ahura mazda mainyu trans formation immense consequence historical development likely determined contact magi religious world new dualism later known greeks \( aristotle , rhodes , , others \) see affirmation new current thought within zoroastrianism , give name see thanks adherence zoroastrianism , magi played enormously important role transmission zarathushtra 's , well definition new forms would assume historically natural propensity also helped diffusion zoroastrian ideas communities iranian diaspora greeks began study doctrines take interest \( , , aristotle , , , \) , even writing persian religion , titles fragments survived hellenistic period , magi seen secular school wisdom , writings magic , astrology , alchemy lent authority prestigious names zarathushtra , , , forming abundant apocryphal literature \( , 1938 \) later still , eschatology fertile meeting ground iranian judeo christian religions , seen famous oracles , work whose iranian roots undeniable likely dates beginning christian era , probably second century ce \( , 1968 \) zoroastrian doctrine savior future \( saoshyant \) basis story coming magi bethlehem gospel matthew \( 2 1 12 \) see saoshyant sasanid period saw magi play determining role religious history iran concerned win back western magi \( de , 1956 \) , eager zoroastrianism national religion iran , priests iranian media persia able establish true state church , strongly hierarchical endowed orthodoxy based formation canon scriptures leading figures development state religion zoroastrian orthodoxy , mani third century saoshyant avestan term saoshyant \( future benefactor , \) designates savior world , arrive future time redeem humankind concept future savior one fundamental notions , together dualism appears early gathas zarathushtra \( zoroaster \) , prophet religion , sao , one performs works , end present state world , existence made splendid see later zoroastrian doctrine developed notion true myth expanded number one three born seed zarathushtra , preserved ages lake \( identified present day lake , , iran \) , protected 99 , 999 , guardian spirits greatest awaited , victorious \( truth \) , son \( \) , third , make existence splendid appears 19 upon arrival humankind longer subject old age , death , corruption , granted unlimited power time dead resurrected , living immortal brandishing weapon kills powerful enemies world truth \( , world spirit , \) , look upon whole existence render comrades engage great battle forces evil , destroyed name clearly result theological speculation \( , 1974 \) , two brothers , , makes truth grow , , makes reverence grow names three \( 13 \) impregnated seed zarathushtra lake give birth , equally speculative arrive beginning millennium , initiating new age new cycle existence appear third final millennium save mankind doctrine future savior already taken shape period \( sixth fourth century bce \) , perhaps principal element formation messianic idea , certainly determining factor , one enjoyed great success hellenistic period beyond confines iranian world similar concept , future buddha , , likely , christian trace roots source
pharvey quack kfu com \( paul harvey \) subject clarification personal position organization duck pond public unix 1 408 249 9630 , log 'guest' lines 26 article athena cs uga edu hudson athena cs uga edu \( paul hudson jr \) writes article c5muiw aqc mailer cc fsu edu dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu \( darius lecointe \) writes sin violate sunday one could ever forgiven jesus never kept sunday holy recognized one day seven holy jesus also recognized holy days , like passover acts 15 says layed gentiles necessary sabbath list , epistles instruct people keep 7th day , christians living among people keep 7th day looks like would problem instead , scriptures telling us days esteemed alike \( romans 14 5 \) man judge us regard kind food eat , jewish holy days keep , regard sabbath \( col 2 \) question authority proclaim requirements fourth commandment longer relevant modern christians \? n't think sabbath , command law totally irrelevant modern christians , 2 , says judged regard keeping sabbath \? running away word jesus \? somebody superseded word jesus \? n't follow morality ten commandments law prophets word jesus , whose morality follow \?
royc rbdc wsnc org \( roy crabtree \) subject kill sword , must killed sword organization red barn data center lines 338 article utarlg uta edu b645zaw utarlg uta edu \( stephen \) writes article sandvik sandvik kent apple com , sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) writes happy 70 people , including innocent kids , died today \? 's amazing everyone automatically blames one side one thing sure koresh chance defend statements \( lacking fact court sponsored verification \) made agents participated situation killed n't know murdered also n't know branch davidians set fire sick batf fbi make comments advance forensic pathology stephen thank god speed kinda numb thought something like going happen week ago one things 's obvious yah start two armed camps , neither yields , 's usually get slaughtered little spark sets koresh company n't stockpiled weapons , batf n't come raid bingo one notice \) peaceful attempt serve warrant b \) six months develop scene six days end \? c \) ah god 25 children least 64 adults plus 6 beginning batf agents dead painful point 1 davidians fired first batf roof rather taking cover \? anyone asked questions 1 \) seen entire video sequences taken opening rounds \? seem recall missing several key parts \) first five minutes day one shooting part comes b \) happened feds video units \? mean carry helmet \? wonder \? 2 \) camera crews live transmission video present record \? \) realize units carry 8mm backups \? hold 90 minutes per unit \? professional \( tape gaps \) \? b \) views seen , premature point fingers either direction well point , stephen anyone \( batf , bd , x bd , \) could touched , mistake maliciously \? koresh shot \( disregarding religious leader , obsessed \) likely people inside went drill like batf outside lesson automatic responses hazardous last resort measures \? yes hard human full pressure hazard , game playing , life painful point 2 either side could backed , help situation see problem constantly net flaming ego problems said point someone dies \( almost like intended way \) , sides kill maintain innocence contradiction terms painful point 3 n't help take sides situation adds fuel fire better let burn 's true usually pick unpopular side point evidence seen might alternatively happened best example think christ tax coin n't one \( n't sanction roman authority unduly \) showed , noted caesar 's , said give , \( waste time \) got back worthwhile concerns god 's requires someone interested god 's please note outstanding overt problem country today one government wants caesar 's coin pay debt anti tax movement today , anti groups , would well note issuing authority ditto yes american people federal government spent towards end , one deserves coin made image god yah hear contradiction money made image god need stir things ever larger revolution , governments turn , , wish wrong many pundits saying 3 years good thing come divorce \( exposure damned \( pardon \) american divorce attorney money left lose taxes inflation painful point 4 many , entertainment thumbs thumbs another thriller like terminator 2 , good old ball game lesson 've become media reality \? 25 children dead anyone thinks blaming koresh batf helps , sick wrong reason tell batf may entirely straight leaders press conferences made comments even possibility koresh followers caused batf concerned morals \( fault , koresh ! \) 25 dead children goes koresh followers \( mostly \) dead painful point 5 la burned davidians burned one case society abandoned people returned frontier outskirts suburbs lesson 's lawful different areas society , depends conditions laws \? power \( personal opinion \) look history whenever privilege replaced whatever token objective law justice society , followed n't learn lessons , least make honest effort , next conflagration doubt closer home rather putting fires , n't much important concerns us work \? \? name sake proud , stephen hard , please keep keeping voice wilderness save generation unborn horror kent ca n't today exactly keeps bomb thrower loving god \( many \) one direct benefit able keep things perspective , ks day need gun protect society day society already beyond redemption redundant , christian belief day cannot peacefully others act called civil disobedience rectify wrongs society , without undue harm punishment , day society ceased human society , become society animals hurts ones died , loved ones left \? besides lessons 's also time many grieve including 've lost faith others , god i'm learning patient , let things heal god willing six years fighting unjust court issue still struggling patient like contrary questions nb branch davidian law official hater hate liars six letter variety official side advocates already lets balance equation questions side , sake old saw batf abd fbi seem want bypass innocent proven guilty innocent presumed guilty 1 \) video tapes tanks \? n't tell exist standard equipment 2 \) think koresh fired place , explosion \? \) tear gas comes spread deliberately made non flammable possible non flammable possible gotcha ! isolation substances pipe system used rather remote launchers \? fbi announce window , blown plus tear gas , five minutes wall come , maintain left right sequence \? b \) aerosols also secondary compound , mixed , becomes flammable \( difficult trace \) suspension , special property exposure brief high heat \( muzzle blasts \) long exposure low heat \( matches , stove \) tend ignite chemicals come \? else allowed test site \? c \) minutes hours \( , rate controlled desired \) , mixture made become exposure temperature certain point \( tracer round \) certain heat quantity \( small explosive charge \) length time \( start wall fire wait \) check military records look tapes tanks \( large capacity systems \) , tear gas \( \? \) , \( hurry still comm channel open outside \? \) see trace fire coming back compound videos \? videos \? ones missing \? sound paranoid \? maybe \? probably trust fbi batf render judgement \? advance court \? god help us \( surely helping \) federal give us clean slate \? 4 3 trillion \( admitted ! \) counting look happen way \? know wait court decide happen \? 89 people chance tell side batf leader , camera one wins except force next time listen hearts , people thanx stephen j stephen roy andrew crabtree roy red haired king andrew virtuous one crabtree iron workers ,
cadence com \( steve peterson \) subject question sabbath question correction organization cadence design systems , inc lines 13 groups continue believe christians worship sabbath \( saturday \) best known seventh day adventists jehovah 's witnesses argue act 20 7 regular worship service , special meeting see paul , cor 16 2 n't explicitly say 's regular worship service jehovah 's witnesses believe christians required observe sabbath , whether saturday sunday sabbath part god israelites required christians steve peterson
donc microsoft com \( \) subject christian owned organization list organization microsoft corp distribution usa lines 28 article 1993apr16 organpipe uug arizona edu ece 0028 bigdog engr arizona edu wrote sorry , mormons n't generally considered christians kcochran nyx cs du edu b \( 0 4 \) c e f g k \( \) r \( \) \( \) tsakc thoughts , posts , ideas , responsibility , beer , pizza ok \? \? \? pumps purse shade \? , come back me' \? i'm looking something green laurie morgan sorry , n't matter think , christian , happens belong lds church church jesus christ latter day saints n't usually read r truly informative stop , see still people world like forced ancestors deserts utah , country entirely \( grandmother born mexico , family moved escape religious persecution us \) i'm willing admit members churches christians , believe christ \( try \) follow teachings , even though different interpretations bible yet churches often go way define whether considered christian could someone mail set rules beliefs must followed christian \? set rules exclude large bodies believers \? know , waste everyone 's time , probably discussed n times , etc guess i'm sensitive went texas , donc microsoft com mail flames , post apologies support short sigs , three lines max \( consider rebuttal , flame \)
bskendig netcom com \( brian kendig \) subject good jesus died \? organization starfleet headquarters san francisco lines 203 brian lpl arizona edu \( brian ceccarelli 602 621 9615 \) writes bskendig netcom com \( brian kendig \) writes maintain people want enter light knowledge alone masters , fear afraid face world terms master \? habits cannot break \? habit really want break , willing make whatever sacrifice need make break , bad habits mine 've decided put forth effort break , 've done bad habits 've decided worth effort break 's choice , either way master choose want weigh benefits actions consequences , use experience help deal unexpected , turn make experienced n't always succeed , never fail , either learn habits ca n't break \? \? one , seem unable master lack desire understand even slightest concept bible arrived understanding christianity , 've probably arrived understanding islam likely different way moslem thinks religion unable master lack desire understand even slightest concept quran \? 's different , different accuse \? accuse desire understand even slightest concept atheism \? sexual sins \? gotta secret desires head harbor get control \? women walk past \? degrade sex object head \? course 's disgusting centuries , religions discriminating sex treating women second class humans 's one reasons christianity insult people unknowingly , regret later yet next time opportunity presents \? n't insult people period 's nature , 's something want , either truly master \? yet life ground use practice fun getting ! admitted master thought life times sometimes say things want say , repeat mistake admitted cannot control every aspect times know n't say something , say anyway times simply forget lesson , fact , master n't start perfect 've got strive something better know shortcomings , know strengths , live life according decisions make , content abide consequences decisions easily 'll accept praise times life 've made mistakes , yes try never make mistake twice need help jesus promised help took offer willfully let jesus master jesus knows better regard christ myth feel far many people offering far many interpretations supposedly said person really judge choose roads travel , decide whether want reach end given road turn back long n't always turn back , 's shame need help , seek friends see point \? think 're one rock , i'm getting great tan sunlight life improved since abandoned theism come join ! difficult trip first , build muscles long hike , 's well worth ! guess ignorance bliss brian , enjoy clue bible n't clue i'm saying , either open eyes see open ears listen i'm spouting empty words life , gives meaning n't see \? i'm going accept anything ca n't witness eyes experience senses , especially something mega powerful 're trying get accept surely believe strongly , must good reason , n't \? witness motherly love senses \? caring concern register senses \? nothing registers see , taste , smell , hear touch , better become vulcan fast better get rid emotions huh \? 're going way track say mother loves know , ask \? point definite things 's done , even bring ask , face face say deity loves know , ask \? ca n't even convince exists ! god says cease existing life forever choose either live hell eternal torment communication whatsoever , choose live paradise god god says issue made theism made 's wishful thinking god like carrot , promising untold pleasures 'll suspend disbelief ignore rationality , would choose lie another , matter powerful note also several gods trying lure way yahweh , allah , zeus , odin , ra please give solid reason choose one others description deleted hee hee ! would want live good life \? , die 's n't contradict reason live good life n't good end life n't anybody else good either everyone dies anyway reason lead good life leading good life meaningless meaningless thing \? paragraph demonstrates n't listened single word 've said ever gone amusement park \? \? mean , hours , closes , nothing 's different except 're dollars lighter going amusement park n't good meaningless thing \? answer think 's fun play ball 'd like get better , even though 're going win anything better stuffed animal even blow ten dollars ride roller 's experience , even though \( \? \) scares dickens way , think life fun n't intend leave amusement park life close night ! i'm sorry , n't feel sacrificing jesus something god 'd worship would , unless sacrifice temporary , case 's really important resurrection sunk \? jesus alive jesus dead \( holy book \) say token , therefore , santa claus delivers toys every xmas n't see \? reason believe say true please give reason ca n't similarly apply santa claus forget bible minute forget quoting verses , forget said show picture wide open , convince 're right forget person forget know type forget know put sentence together forget know send e mail forget existence exist ca n't , existence means nothing communications net bearing importance life remove , cease significant thereby deity nothing collection verses book , cannot supported without invoking \? mean existence deity \( , fact , deity written \) real existence \? believe believe \? brian kendig je ne suis fait comme aucun bskendig netcom com de ceux que j'ai vus j'ose croire n'etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent meaning life si je ne vaux pas mieux , au moins je suis autre ends rousseau
mls panix com \( michael siemon \) subject hating sin sinner \? organization panix public access unix , nyc distribution usa lines 26 consequences homophobic ranting self righteous \? well , noted another group , thought 'd pass along context talk origins , report yet another debate nothing attempt mindless assertion standard issue creationist writer reflects behavior reported reminds christian groups known believe writer \( non homosexual \) christian effective technique used promote unit among soldiers lord called witnessing 've seen process used well poorly near devil worship mention group using witnessing get people go kill homosexuals least terrorize campus clearly god 's deleted specifics location , believe characteristic place \( state spent first 10 years \) , though , unfortunately , remark fits tee michael l siemon say gods , sons mls panix com high , nevertheless shall die like men , fall mls ulysses att com like prince psalm 82 6 7
psyrobtw ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( robert weiss \) subject 21 apr 93 god 's promise 2 chronicles 15 2 organization university buffalo lines 10 news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host ubvmsb cc buffalo edu went meet asa , said unto , hear ye , asa , judah benjamin lord , ye ye seek , found ye forsake , forsake 2 chronicles 15 2
psyrobtw ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( robert weiss \) subject lds thief goes paradise kermit goes tangent organization university buffalo lines 65 news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host ubvmsb cc buffalo edu kermit tensmeyer quoted sources wrote something attempt construct facsimile previously said , address kermit 's offering john redelfs originally wrote jr learned man cannot frustrate justice repenting jr death bed repentance feeling remorse jr requires faith christ proven following , keeping jr commandments cannot accomplished ones deathbed tom albrecht responded ta jesus must lied thief cross john redelfs wrote back jr paradise salvation thing salvation better jr refer john 14 2 responded john rw n't see effort equate salvation paradise rw rw rather , see implied fact saved rw may enter paradise kermit wrote kt incomplete reference kt kt see also discussion jesus go hell group kt arguments paradise hell \( sheol \) places death kt discussion \( lds involved far could see \) argued using kt standard christian argument bible pretty much support kt lds position kt kt christ went death burial kt kt taught prisoners freed darkness kt kt resurrected , yet ascended father kt kt arguement centered around n't proper biblical kt terms places respond question raised jesus went infernal paradise entering heaven one made point issue , compared lds position orthodox belief infernal paradise held abraham 's bosom \( luke 16 \) , place righteous dead sheol \( equivalent hades \) point raised john someone could repent death bed tom albrecht pointed biblical example contradictory john 's position put forward thief cross promised christ paradise , abode righteous dead john 's position possibly needs kermit needs address topic hand robert weiss psyrobtw ubvms cc buffalo edu
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject davidians compassion organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 29 article 1993apr20 569 ra royalroads ca , mlee post royalroads ca \( malcolm lee \) wrote judge christians acts would call christian yet \? bd 's contradicted scripture actions christian simple perhaps read much media portrayed ask true believing christian find deny association bd 's even 7th day adventists denied ties cult , well , satanists , followers obscure religion , would sure christians would unison condemn make show case dealing fanatical revelation preacher kills ultimately everyone , including innocent children , seems dealing christians christians \( note spelling \) judge muslims acts committed saddam hussein , supposedly devout muslim \? n't saddam dictator using religious beliefs people ends show dangers religion order word mind virus make mothers capable letting small children burn ashes scream \? cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject davidians compassion organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 27 article blaze cs jhu edu , arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \( ken arromdee \) wrote article sandvik 190493200420 sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) writes highly christian religious order put fire house , killing people inside way know cultists burned house could batf fbi government 's word , , people started knock search concussion grenades hardly disinterested observers well , looking videos seems fire started various places time , would indicate planned action i'm sure fbi batf n't deliberately start possible fire , sniper kill would far easier method looking careful operation , use tear gas know n't start fires , less likely case sorry , bets fanatical people keen start armageddon cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject davidians compassion organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 24 article blaze cs jhu edu , arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu \( ken arromdee \) wrote article sandvik 190493200420 sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) writes highly christian religious order put fire house , killing people inside way know cultists burned house could batf fbi government 's word , , people started knock search concussion grenades hardly disinterested observers 's another point made inside burning houses know want stay alive , 's better run building one case fbi agent drag women burning house , run back saw forces arriving good indication fanatical mind followers including children burned instead saving innocent victims instance cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject kind loving god ! ! organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 20 article 1993apr20 643 ra royalroads ca , mlee post royalroads ca \( malcolm lee \) wrote understand sympathize pain happened waco sad n't take us christians though branch davidians organized religion cult led ego cult leader christian faith stands shoulders one man , lord lords king kings , jesus christ btw , david koresh jesus christ claimed interesting notion \( watched tv tonight \) koresh never claimed officially jesus christ believers hoped would , never took standpoint interested breaking seven seals revelation , make sure armageddon would start well , 19 children died , god saved kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject kill sword , must killed sword organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 18 article utarlg uta edu , b645zaw utarlg uta edu \( stephen \) wrote many \) one direct benefit able keep things perspective , ks hurts ones died , loved ones left \? besides lessons 's also time many grieve including 've lost faith others , god i'm learning patient , let things heal god willing christians ages learn patient think 's time face reality events last 52 two days showed world really like kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject clarification organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 19 article cup portal com , thyagi cup portal com \( thyagi morgoth nagasiva \) wrote considered different largely unrelated number sources 've seen documentation links figure h spencer lewis lewis apparently involved reuss , h ordo templi orientis many years apparently also true lewis charter form body created r c \( subsidiary \? interesting question \) anyone interested history amorc , think spencer lewis published books beginning mission alexandria bookstore \( 's name book store operated amorc \) selection provide interested reader insight \) cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
irfan davinci ece wisc edu \( irfan alan \) subject treatise miracles muhammad , part 3 organization univ wisconsin madison electrical computer engineering distribution usa lines 87 droplet vol 1 , 11 , part 3 r p l e vast ocean miraculous qur'an translations arabic turkish writings said , vol 1 , 11 , part 3 nineteenth letter treatise miracles muhammed saw , part 3 \( continued droplet vol 1 , 11 , part 2 \) third sign miracles muhammad \( saw \) extremely varied universal , distinguished miracles relate almost species creation supreme aide renowned ruler , arriving many gifts city various people live , welcomed representative people bids welcome language , , supreme messenger monarch pre post eternity \( \) honored universe coming envoy inhabitants earth , brought light truth spiritual gifts sent creator universe derived realities whole universe , species creation water , rocks , trees , animals human beings moon , sun stars welcomed prophethood , language , bearing one miracles would require voluminous work mention miracles scholars written many volumes concerning proofs prophethood , briefly point general category fall miracles definite accepted accurate reports evidences prophethood muhammad \( saw \) fall two main categories first called includes paranormal events happened time birth , declaration prophethood second group pertains remaining evidences prophethood , contains two subdivisions 1 \) wonders manifested departure world order confirm prophethood , 2 \) exhibited era prophethood latter also two parts 2 1 \) evidences prophethood became manifest personality , inner outer , moral conduct perfection , 2 2 \) miracles related substantial matters last part two branches 2 2 1 \) concerning qur'an spirituality , 2 2 2 \) relating matter creation last branch divided two categories 2 2 2 1 \) first involves paranormal happenings occured mission either break unbelievers , augment faith category twenty different sorts , splitting moon , flowing water fingers , satisfying large numbers little food , speaking trees , rocks animals sons also many instances , thus , meaning , strength confirmation consensus 2 2 2 2 \) second category , includes events lying future occured predicted upon allah \( \) 's instructions starting last category , summarize list \( 1 \) \( 1 \) , could write intended without choice , wrote head dictated , could completely conform order classification continued allah willing irfan alan , servant islam
pharvey quack kfu com \( paul harvey \) subject christians law \? clarification personal position organization duck pond public unix 1 408 249 9630 , log 'guest' 1993apr19 rchland ibm com lines 41 article 1993apr19 rchland ibm com rchland vnet ibm com \( r j \) writes article c5muiw aqc mailer cc fsu edu dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu \( darius lecointe \) writes question authority proclaim requirements fourth commandment longer relevant modern christians \? please n't believe christians believe law however , saved adherence law law exists tell us sinful sin hence law case refers christians jews believe sins atoned blood sacrifice animals described old testament last time heard jewish animal sacrifice \? christians believe sins atoned blood sacrifice jesus blood sacrifice innocent man \? make law n't christians follow , n't even follow ten commandments \? breaking law sinful , avoid sinful ways , sinning , , jeopardize salvation , short hitler heaven hell \? note i'm theologian gist several sermons 've heard lately bible studies 've ever wonder someone , perhaps great deceiver , pulling leg \?
caldwell facman ohsu edu \( larry caldwell \) subject merlin , mithras magick organization oregon health sciences university lines 29 nntp posting host facman us oracle com \( kevin osinski \) writes recall reading michael \( \? \) rutherford 's novel scene son roman living britain takes part secret ceremony involving bull stands naked pit covered sort scaffolding assistants coax bull stand scaffolding fatally stab bull , worshipper pit blood supposedly sort rite passage members bull cult wonder related mithras cult \? n't know rutherford got information chapter book historical fiction , general events take place largely based historical accounts rite like described joseph campbell 's occidental mythology also described levels initiation , think 6 \? n't know campbell got info , remember thinking little also wonder connection ancient bull cults current practice popular mediterranean cultures quite bit n't read campbell , give try larry caldwell caldwell ohsu edu compuserve , 2273 oregon health sciences university \( 503 \) 494 2232
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject davidians compassion organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 26 highly christian religious order put fire house , killing people inside i'm annoyed adults , knew supposedly , 's actions mostly angry fact people inside , including mothers , let children suffer die awful conditions considered religious following end , i'm proud n't follow fanatical non compassionate religions might want die whatever purpose , please spare innocent young ones nothing hard time understanding christianity knows word compassion christians , think actions today would produce good picture religion \? kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject kind loving god ! ! organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 25 article 1993apr19 ra royalroads ca , mlee post royalroads ca \( malcolm lee \) wrote true stated jesus' saving grace available everyone , jews words , everyone salvation everyone option open people jews course , jews n't accept deity christ , would hardly expect accept anything christ said n't feel animosity towards even though persecuted jesus disciples eventually crucified , bear ill anything , feel pity jesus die pay price sins jews merely fulfilling prophesy jesus knew die even began ministry demonstrates great depth love us jesus certainly demonstrated great depth love children died today davidian complex sorry , events today made even negative organized religion cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
uphrrmk gemini oscs montana edu \( jack coyote \) subject rfd misc taoism reply uphrrmk gemini oscs montana edu \( jack coyote \) organization never , never lines 8 sunlight shining ocean aleph null bottles beer wall , aleph null bottles beer ! take one , pass around aleph null bottles beer wall !
brian lpl arizona edu \( brian ceccarelli 602 621 9615 \) subject rob lanphier organization lunar planetary laboratory , tucson az lines 82 dear rob , read brian k 's postings , find someone honestly seeking truth read response , see reply post , reply post quote statement undermines good points might \( enough make stop reading \) sometimes come across , sorry come across way times thank reproach , really appreciate 'll try get better rob , time , also learned people respond gentle approach others respond harsh rebuke brian k , far , responds latter glad responds cases approach , intention loving making excuse coming across apologize rob , sometimes brian k comes across honest know brian k back forth one post looks honest next excuse wants explain universe 50 words less think brian kendig really trying comfortable set excuses want brian k honest really wants know , ask questions stop asserting irrelevant excuses nothing god wish brian would read bible come decisions without temptation mock god perspective rob , look brian kendig , see man standing middle highway distance see mack truck heading right , brian k faced away oncoming truck n't see 's see dialog brian k , please step aside get run bk truck turn around look bk look ! healthier take look oncoming truck bk explain trucks exist turn around run bk wo n't like hiking tomorrow tuesday blind fool ! choose ignorance \? nothing lose look look , certainly lose life want see squashed road bk life lose rather look besides , truck running harm way , really open mind motivation belittle brian , love brian best know \? wish single brian kendig millions billions people fall category perhaps people fall fallen category one time lives see truck behind brian hope brian look see ramifications truck coming towards hope brian want step way fear , though , brian instead choose glue middle highway , certainly get run chooses , chooses , nothing beyond change mind choice moment , brian n't gotten even far still point want look sure moves eyeball appease , head turn around see entire picture far satisfied glimpse mountains distance thank rob reproach really appreciate \( wife tells thing times \) \) try better
brian lpl arizona edu \( brian ceccarelli 602 621 9615 \) subject good jesus died \? organization lunar planetary laboratory , tucson az lines 69 jim writes would consider word eye witness \( peter \) testify events surrounding jesus' life \? two problems brian kendig writes \( 1 \) peter died two millenia ago original letters wrote long since decayed dust alive today could question existence alexander great , iii , nero , caligula , josephus , cyrus great , \? documents decayed dust brian , another excuse \? \( 2 \) even peter witness miracles jesus two millenia ago , n't mean deity bible says \( god might satan , trying convince everyone 's nice guy \) , even deity still alive active world today peter wrote bit bible peter says god bible says consider bible court recording period thousands years , various people come testify experience living god comes abraham wealthy rancher comes moses , high official egypt comes elijah , priest comes david , mere shepherd became king comes pagan king comes pagan king persia , cyrus comes nehemiah , king persia matthew , irs agent takes stand comes luke , paul jew use kill christians fun comes john , 17 year old boy comes peter , fishermen comes james , brother jesus comes hundreds others hear testimony fishermen , irs agents , priests , kings court hearing lasts thousands years people coming testifying god calls listening stuff , realize king david could never known john , solomon could never known matthew , nehemiah could never known peter realize people independent witnesses , , rule collaboration yet witnesses tell god tells experiences living god experience different , experience enough cross reveal one people talking god daniel know god , 3rd highest official babylon , god revealed john 600 years later different perspective two testimonies identical testimony dares venture already known yet witness 's testimony , even though different prior , consistently describes harmoniously fitting facets character god stare gazing computer , got seeming fanatic end net , saying , know god revealed also calls jesus \( john 8 58 \) please believe telling truth wonderful know going pass testimony \? going call three thousand years worth testimony shepherds irs agents royal officials kings computer programmers , fiction \? scoff keyboard , near complete ignorance testimonies , going say complete hooey \? would audacious display arrogance \? actually think know better king solomon , king david , even abraham \?
psyrobtw ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( robert weiss \) subject disillusioned protestant finds christ organization university buffalo lines 26 news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host ubvmsb cc buffalo edu article usenet ins cwru edu , cj195 cleveland freenet edu \( john w redelfs \) writes previous article , tom tredysvr tredydev unisys com \( tom albrecht \) says article usenet ins cwru edu cj195 cleveland freenet edu \( john w redelfs \) writes learned god loves children never heard plan redeeming , even died without knowledge christ learned man cannot frustrate justice repenting death bed repentance feeling remorse requires faith christ proven following , keeping commandments cannot accomplished ones deathbed jesus must lied thief cross paradise salvation thing salvation better refer john 14 2 n't see effort equate salvation paradise rather , see implied fact saved may enter paradise robert weiss psyrobtw ubvms cc buffalo edu
organization city university new york kevxu cunyvm bitnet subject abortion private health insurance lines 22 agate berkeley edu dzkriz ocf berkeley edu \( dennis kriz \) writes recently become aware health insurance includes coverage abortion strongly oppose abortion reasons conscience deeply know premiums may used pay sincerely believe murder would like request exempted abortion coverage health premiums reduced accordingly share dennis 's outrage similar manner recently become aware health insurance includes coverage illness injuries suffered christians deeply know premiums may used pay sincerely believe divine punishment sinful conduct addition folks able avail alternative therapies lourdes , fatima , morris , benny hinn , etc case jesus feel reason covering bets expense would like request exempted christian coverage health premiums reduced accordingly jack carroll
bskendig netcom com \( brian kendig \) subject good jesus died \? organization starfleet headquarters san francisco lines 114 brian lpl arizona edu \( brian ceccarelli 602 621 9615 \) writes brian kendig writes explain death jesus good thing , would glad hear , might even convert warned , however , 've heard common arguments , n't convince ask jesus said john 12 23 32 n't mystery anyone certainly need persuasive argument read jesus 's reply question john 12 24 26 assuredly , say , unless grain wheat falls onto ground dies , remains alone dies , produces much grain loves life lose , hates life world keep eternal life anyone serves , let follow , servant also anyone serves , father honor would want eternal life hate one \? created deity , would deity wish us enjoy given us \? would want live forever \? challenge life die , must give life meaning wish happens time someday pass content live memories friends , dead , longer reason exist short even deity exist , n't automatically mean would worship content live life , fend , die , proud fact matter end , actions choices god decides toss flaming pit , would much rather cease exist god wants respect obedience , better earn , strong true jesus gives reasons john 16 7 one obvious reason jesus died , \( everything else , nothing punishment \) could rise life would stop doubting believe \( john 21 27 \) fact jesus rose dead hope rise dead obvious point overlook without obvious point , would hope faith would vanity jesus n't one rose dead think osiris , well characters greek legend , memory serves still would want rise dead \? want \? jesus suffer death \? , ask jesus jesus says john 15 18 25 's mystery either world hates without reason direct proclamation far humans things thus , much need saviour god wants win devotion , knows provide way believe without resort blind faith could applied equally well religion ca n't , brian k , accept \? \? world cannot accept neither sees knows \( john 14 17 \) 's precisely neither see know zeus either , odin shall offer devotion offer jesus \? animosity lack knowledge comes robert 's daily verses convincing testimony truth john 14 17 16 25 've got understand point view see christians spouting bible verse time sort magic spell level opposition truth , 's robert never demonstrated actually understands verses imply rattles day day fly face common sense reality , point even , even christians try explain verses words , christian point view , every human would want christian understood christian message properly , strife suffering earth would end 's problem substitute moslem buddhist instead christian , means thing nice belief set around nice book want make believe bearing real world , 've got convincing pray hope blurt animosity lack knowledge perfect either regardless , thank god jesus revealed , without 'd also bumbling blindly though arrogantly slandering person created loves opinion , 're bumbling blindly making entities n't , depriving true understanding enjoyment life long keep beliefs , 'll keep beliefs soon start waving around , expect toss opinions , brian kendig je ne suis fait comme aucun bskendig netcom com de ceux que j'ai vus j'ose croire n'etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent meaning life si je ne vaux pas mieux , au moins je suis autre ends rousseau
joslin pogo isp pitt edu \( david joslin \) subject language agreement organization intelligent systems program lines 59 responded jim 's articles today , see neglected respond one would n't want think hypocrite responding every stupid article r m23364 mwunix mitre org \( james meritt \) writes handy dictionary dictionary definitions disagree agree deleted please differentiate disagree agree oh , i'm weary trying wade jim 's red herrings smoke screens let 's see get run four articles posted jim today filter \( markov chain program steve lamont kind enough send \) taking action \? white geese held held decision upon door black white goose waddles past eyes door hits confidence interval individual held responsible , individual may held getaway car may held uncountably large number driver something agree black goose waddles past person imprisoned \? white goose waddles past confidence interval population geese axed , fine white goose waddles past door running jim 's articles make coherent \? less coherent \? turned jim 's articles angst ridden poem making choices world filled uncertainty , yet held responsible choices make \? geese symbolize inner frustration ambiguity , desire everything black white , shades gray \? getaway car tell us try renounce nature get away responsibility actions , rather take role passive , driver getaway car , \? man machine , car driver , reveal subtext internal conflict moral responsibility \? reading much collaboration jim random number generator \? dj
dlphknob camelot bradley edu \( cole \) subject catholic lit nntp posting host camelot bradley edu organization society preservation cruelty lines 37 1993apr14 476 mtechca maintech com foster mtechca maintech com writes surprised saddened would expect kind behavior evangelical born gospel thumping face 're true christian protestants , always thought catholics behaved better please stoop level e b g f w c protestants , think best way witness strident , intrusive , loud , insulting self righteous \( pleading mode \) please ! i'm begging ! quit confusing religious groups , stop making generalizations ! i'm protestant ! i'm evangelical ! n't believe way way ! i'm creation scientist ! n't think homosexuals hung ! want discuss bible thumpers , would better singling \( making generalizations \) fundamentalists compared actions methodists southern baptists , would think different religions ! please , prejudice thinking people group , please n't write protestants evangelicals ! \( pleading mode \) god wish could get ahold thomas stories n , n tha gb , gb n yvan sasha david cole iv chief research dlphknob camelot bradley edu
psyrobtw ubvmsd cc buffalo edu \( robert weiss \) subject lds gordon 's question nicene creed organization university buffalo lines 28 news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host ubvmsd cc buffalo edu gordon banks quoted added gb article acsu buffalo edu gb psyrobtw ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( robert weiss \) writes gb gb gb christians professed years nicene gb creed , statement beliefs drawn truths scripture gb officially accepted council church bishops gb leaders nicea 325 christians still gb creed regularly public worship gb gb gb prior 325 ad christians \? really gb believed creed even formulated \? gb really believe absurdity \? i'm afraid really n't honest nicene creed , mentioned , brief statement beliefs derived scripture certain list exist earlier indicate beliefs summarized exist formula derived robert weiss psyrobtw ubvms cc buffalo edu
jeffj yang earlham edu \( chaos \) subject alt sex stories literary critical analysis \) organization honest bob 's used toaster emporium lines 196 article h7v agate berkeley edu , dzkriz ocf berkeley edu \( dennis kriz \) writes hi , i'm going try something , perhaps many would thought even possible want begin process initiating literary critical study pornography posted alt sex stories , identify major themes motifs present stories posted opening possibility objective moral evaluation material present first , let congratulate posting flame sick perverts , immoral , going hell , seems usual religious post found alt sex hierarchy hopefully , wo n't get flamed , either , however , argued personally think project built ground first , believe way find objective morality morality value inherently subjective represent beliefs person group people widely held , perhaps even overwhelmingly held , never never objective assumptions \( 1 \) christian bedrock assumption true , comes truly god \( 2 \) regarding alt sex stories perhaps even objective standpoint , majority material indeed repugnant \( come conclusion quite quickly start thinking analyzing material like \) , reflects fairly profound needs people well truths deserve pointed second , accept assumptions make , say , trying objective , accept morality begin using christian bible \? 're purpose long run , advantage making literary moral analysis save band width christians non mutually flaming moral stuff \( pornographic \) groups third , call , wo n't stop flamage always people pop alt sex tell us sick twisted evil curiosity , alt sex readers show unprovoked religion groups tell narrow minded , censoring , \? basically , christian morality non christian one either value particular work , whether one christian hm let provide example four people get together dinner , discuss morality , , rather conservative moslem , sociopath start saying think 's immoral force people sex agree , also say immoral sex someone gender \( note really n't know views homosexuality , using common view morality purposes example \) moslem says immoral women faces uncovered sociopath , become bored , kills three us eats us , feels guilt done nothing wrong morally mind support first assumption christian scriptures say \( evidence deleted \) i'm going accept evidence ask us accept word god everything good comes god valid argument person shares beliefs still , must say major themes motifs erotica could interesting reasons , good luck next part major themes motifs pornographic literature places like alt sex stories \? 've able identify please add comment motif 1 male cinderella many stories expressed feeling alienation part writer otherwise protagonist story regard object \( person \) desire often story involves protagonist \( surface \) quite average \( underneath usually enormous dick \) , desires way gain access \( definitely sexual way \) person far desireable indeed seems walk rain drops hmmm detect wee bit \? motif 2 celebration \( indeed \) beauty objective vast majority pornographic literature deals beauty , innocence \( somehow lost \) , grace , simply physical beauty generally , people christian non say beauty good one could mean beautiful people better , good non beautiful people would hope people necessarily true motif 3 dick instrument redemption might suggest word penis \? seems line tone post blessed well hung , shall get laid would thus revised matthew 5 \) bravo ! respect sense humor , sir motif 4 sex expression sincere giving , often enough , clear desire part protagonist , give \( definitely sexual \) pleasure object \( person \) desires yes , theme usually better stories however , always selfish could point examples work elf sternberg , example motif 5 alt sex stories describes sex completely removed realm transmitting life removed sex dimension alt sex stories , one begins wonder sex even involves , context described pornography serves real purpose serves purpose pornographic movies affirms male involved , well assuring reader \( character \) whole picture tm probably well described catholic teaching husband wife , act total mutual self giving sexual union , cooperating god opening transmission new life \( cf humane \) whole picture tm unfortunately applies people accept church addition , sex procreation , 1 \) god make , people would want , rather building instinct \? 2 \) god make fallible \? every sexual encounter results pregnancy , even among catholics mean sinned \? case alt sex stories catholic teaching probably see eye eye long time granted motif 6 sex used instrument violence , power humiliation pornography seems tend direction , really know probably volumes could written relationships sex power humiliation probably gives good reason traditionally judeo christianity negative regard sexuality seems tend great moral morass pornography would tend directions demand many people violent fantasies would never act real life , think read later , jeff jeffj yang earlham edu official generic sig 4 lines , 80 columns , amiga checks , witty quotes , maps australia , , ascii art , disclaimers anti flame requests , one spelling
b645zaw utarlg uta edu \( stephen \) subject kind loving god ! ! news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host utarlg uta edu organization university texas arlington lines 29 article sandvik sandvik kent apple com , sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) writes article 1993apr15 ra royalroads ca , mlee post royalroads ca \( malcolm lee \) wrote laws written israelites remember , laws written different time applied god 's chosen people jesus changed living age grace sin longer immediately punishable death repentance salvation lord jesus christ chosen people salvation available everyone , jew gentile alike jews wo n't agree , malcolm jews ks \? \( ex people , language , religiously , politically , \) mean jews god 's chosen \? malcolm , please , , set word wrap 75 less avoid clutter \? j stephen
mlee post royalroads ca \( malcolm lee \) subject kind loving god ! ! organization royal roads military college , victoria , b c lines 29 article sandvik sandvik kent apple com , sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) writes article 1993apr15 ra royalroads ca , mlee post royalroads ca \( malcolm lee \) wrote laws written israelites , god 's chosen people god expressly set apart rest world israelites direct witness god 's existence disobey god knowing god real would outright denial god therefore immediately punishable remember , laws written different time applied god 's chosen people jesus changed living age grace sin longer immediately punishable death repentance salvation lord jesus christ chosen people salvation available everyone , jew gentile alike jews wo n't agree , malcolm cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net lot people wo n't agree 's right respect however , point , jews also covered saving grace jesus christ jews become christians brings another question still ponder much anti semitism \? people hate jews \? n't hate jews consider like anyone else , sinners
m23364 mwunix mitre org \( james meritt \) subject silence concurance nntp posting host mwunix mitre org organization mitre corporation , mclean va distribution usa lines 76 article blue cis pitt edu joslin pogo isp pitt edu \( david joslin \) writes missing context discussion jim , jim wrote following e mail pointed hate shatter self image perfection appear hold , language wrong jim pointed , fact , agree robert weiss jim meritt took quotes context hence , find difficult understand jim thinks hypocrite needless say , n't time reply every article r takes quote context course ones disagree q e , according , jim , way criticize one person taking quote context , without hypocrite , post response every person r takes quote context \? jim replied saying either ask assert \? today find four articles jim , one subject \? , pointing specific instance case , eyes law , someone aware something capability taking action , individual may held responsible action \? , course , complete red herring taking quotes context n't crime n't time read every article r , i'm certainly obligation reply \? check newsgroups \? silence imply jim thinks n't respond weiss' articles must condone weiss' taking quotes context \? jim n't want give direct answer question read written decide telepathy \? claim know want back context conversation jim jim 's next claim using inductive logic concluded hypocrite challenged provide details logic led incorrect conclusion asked specifically wrong today find another obscure article \( posting twice n't help maybe ignorant accept classification red herrings could jim mean read uncountably large number articles \? know uncountably large means \? appear could jim mean axed articles , weiss' articles , wants conclude well , ca n't see going suprised help induction 've written roughly 80 appear case appearance argument like captain kirk would gotten mr spock written paramount think hard jim see pattern \? think harder run induction engine see pops course appear arrogant \? already figured
mayo edu subject lds gordon 's question nicene creed reply jaguar organization mayo foundation , rochester mn campus lines 11 nicene creed believe one god father almighty , maker heaven earth , things visible invisible one lord jesus christ , begotten son god , begotten father worlds , god god , light light , god god , begotten made , one substance father things made us men , salvation , came heaven incarnate holy spirit virgin mary , made man , crucified also us pilate suffered buried , third day rose according es , ascended heaven , right hand father shall come glory judge quick dead , whose kingdom shall end believe holy spirit , lord life , father son , father son together worshipped glorified , spoke prophets believe one holy apostolic church acknowledge one baptism remission sins look resurrection dead , life world come amen
turpin cs utexas edu \( russell turpin \) subject christian meta ethics organization cs dept , university texas austin lines 121 nntp posting host saltillo cs utexas edu summary spit lukewarm ! article panix com mls panix com \( michael siemon \) writes well , whole point making base commandments n't rules set rules moral code law code algorithm acting things helpful individuals societies used instead personal involvement responsibility one 's actions two commandments rules merely rules vague practically devoid meaning michael siemon acknowledges every time writes resolution argument turns secular cultural assumptions independent rules great commandment , anything else , call act god accepting ultimate responsibility every action commandment love neighbor viewed , part , reminding man god cannot act ultimate responsibility indeed , many traditions present interpretation believers supposed interpret loving one 's neighbor following various rules , relying god make things come right , precisely would wrong man assume ultimate responsibility , confronted good sounding goo means whatever reader wants mean conservatives may twist act god mean lay rules people nasty possible n't keep rules insistent \( obvious \) convinced lot people \( rightly reject whole concept ! \) idiocy god acts say interpretation twisted \? many passages bible straightforward reading show christian god behaving way michael cannot refer base claims base commandments show readings twisted , divergence understanding occurs even trying interpret base claims commandments addressing conservative christians , michael necessarily draw upon secular cultural notions conservative christians reject anyone looking ethical system , since society eager hand us one matter \? may need principle critique ethical systems case agapate allelou base commandments vague serve principle critique ethical systems meaning base commandments believer derives secular cultural notions believer brings , believer mixes demands straightforward readings biblical passages , particular sectarian tradition , combination things commandments lack sufficient substance themself serve basis criticizing ethical systems meaning comes ethical system believer brings commandments different bodies christians , beginning , urged different ethical systems \( cases , none \) result , bizarre identify one systems , however popular \( infamous \) christianity christianity torah qu'ran specifically christian scripture little , anything , way commandments little christians desperately want commandments go mining almost support one , single , thing gospels jesus specifically gives commandment us love one another jesus explicitly states summarizes jewish law , would seem bring properly understand means love god love neighbors many parables teachings gospels attribute jesus read ethical commandments pauline epistles similarly full clear come together sensible understanding ethical behavior , problem lack raw material radical christian take gospel seriously , michael , conservative christians also take gospel seriously differentiates way interpret gospel n't \( \) christians like tell something christianity \? sense , wide variety interpretations tell us something christianity tells us new testament authors left sufficiently vague hodge podge serve source text many , vastly different beliefs nature christian god men n't irony nothing christianity per se michael use support cause lesbians gays every christian principle turns cause effective extra christian principles michael interprets religion , apply christian principles , equal justification , cause short , extra christian principles make michael 's christianity beneficial , suspect would beneficial , perhaps , without filtered christian interpretation michael paints picture standard american atheism rejection evil many conservative christian interpretations bible think even damaging christianity note new testament presents vague hodge podge notions nature god nature good \( except , course , ordered interpretation relies principles \) , think apply christian parable , cold drink value hot drink value , lukewarm spit russell
sdf lonestar org \( tom hyatt \) subject kill sword , must killed sword organization sdf public access unix , dallas tx 214 436 lines 39 article utarlg uta edu b645zaw utarlg uta edu \( stephen \) writes chemical warfare use used innocents likewise involved subject judgments goes lead others captivity whether behind strands wire , deceit yeah innocents people hoard 250k worth high caliber automatic weapons kill law enforcement agents really fit bill innocents 20 children prevented leaving burning building self appointed messiah following parents burning started davidians patience faith saints let continue one rewards according works shall comes quickly evidence continues mount , seems follow step step quite logically j stephen subject line veiled threat u government agents possibly executive office leadership \( e clinton \) \? 've considered bit loon , , stephen , guess pretty much confirms nice religion ones killed n't agree us sheesh tom hyatt i'm saints fan , 've sdf lonestar org suffered quite enough , thank ! arlington , tx help ! i'm repressed ! python
mikec sail labs tek com \( micheal cranford \) subject list biblical contradictions distribution usa organization tektronix , inc , beaverton , lines 37 jim brown wrote deleted feel use kjv basis arguing biblical contradictions either intellectually dishonest \( purposefully wanting show bible worst light possible \) , mentally lazy taking easy way either way , leave theist option , well , 's kjv , 's xxx version says deleted unfortunately , 's simple kjv preferred majority fundamentalists \( least \) second part argument fails well , since statement used version \( kjv \) deleted 've based argument one best modern translations available based work leading biblical scholars deleted would find statement useful since appeal authority opposition claim authorities better second tact local creationists used reply scholars atheists cannot believed \( also use phrase describe theologians n't agree \) deleted gen 30 39 flocks conceived rods , brought forth cattle , , spotted deleted verse discussed clearly claims sympathetic magic works \( e placing stripped sticks cattle breeding grounds causes stripped spotted calves born \) attacked basis \( ever observed claimed correlation \)
porta wam umd edu \( david palmer \) subject 14 apr 93 god 's promise 1 john 1 7 nntp posting host rac3 wam umd edu organization university maryland , college park lines 23 article shelley u washington edu sieferme stein u washington edu \( eric sieferman \) writes article quack kfu com pharvey quack kfu com \( paul harvey \) writes article netcom com human blood sacrifice ! martyrdom innocent virgin ! nailed wooden pole ! obsession male \? christian washed blood lamb washed blood bull anyone netland process devising new religion , use lamb bull , already reserved please choose another animal , preferably one endangered species list cockroaches \? porta wam umd edu say monkey little fluffy tail like rabbit , rabbit ! tazmanian devil
csugrad cs vt edu \( rob napier \) subject oto , ancient order oriental templars organization virginia tech computer science dept , blacksburg , va lines 21 distribution world nntp posting host csugrad cs vt edu article cup portal com thyagi cup portal com \( thyagi morgoth nagasiva \) writes may concern constitution sacrificed bandwidth gods im glad finally heard exactly oto finally know stop looking , content knowlege im interested 's tough enough listening religions refer one truth possibly accept magical order \? answers give join us \( pay dues \) \? scary besides , answers easy questions ! 's another story rob napier virginia tech gravity , earth sucks csugrad cs vt edu i'm another hall
subject rw robert weiss orthodox christian \? librba byuvm bitnet organization brigham young university lines 12 robert , keep making references orthodox belief , saying things like held \( cf kermit thread \) exact body theology drawing call orthodox \? holds luke meant said meant \? whenever personal interpretation biblical passages challenged , response seems one needs merely look bible order see truth , see biblical things differently \? simply assume one really understands \? curious , rick anderson librba byuvm bitnet
cotera woods ulowell edu subject biblical backing koresh 's 3 02 tape \( cites enclosed \) lines 38 organization university massachusetts lowell article 1r17j9 5ie sbctri sbc com , netd susie sbc com \( \) writes article 20apr199301460499 utarlg uta edu b645zaw utarlg uta edu \( stephen \) writes think david koresh n't solid structure , sound biblical backing hour long tape broadcast , n't think anyone really cares solid structure sermon 's deaths 's responsible concern people assume evidence responsible deaths \? koresh nut , okay \? , 'd like see evidence 'll type slowly understand either set fire told followers n't make martyr get killed , killed , 's proof \? suicide considered sin branch davidians also , koresh said going commit suicide furthermore , cult experts said suicidal david \( sp \? \) , one cult members , said fire started one tanks spraying tear gas facilities knocked lantern evil inside compound evidence please \? thou shalt kill stuff 'd like point bible says commit murder translation self defense never considered murder reason stockpiling weapons afraid government would try something fears obviously well founded ray cote 's government like government
cotera woods ulowell edu subject biblical backing koresh 's 3 02 tape \( cites enclosed \) lines 14 organization university massachusetts lowell article 595 oryx com , oryx com \( stephen l favor \) writes seems koresh yet another messenger got killed message carried \( says nothing character messenger \) reckon 'll find rest hard way koresh killed wanted lots illegal guns suppose illegal guns found \? suppose going kill bunch people \? ray cote 's government like government
geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) subject lds gordon 's objections reply geb cs pitt edu \( gordon banks \) organization univ pittsburgh computer science lines 38 article acsu buffalo edu psyrobtw ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( robert weiss \) writes gordon banks quoted added gb article acsu buffalo edu gb psyrobtw ubvmsd cc buffalo edu \( robert weiss \) writes gb gb mormon jesus spirit brother lucifer jesus god gb father 's first born spirit child jesus begotten earth gb natural means , holy ghost sweat blood gb sins garden blood cannot gb cleanse sin among many millions gb gods jesus jehovah father elohim \( ot gb jehovah elohim \) needed saved gb true mormons believe spirits \( including jesus , lucifer , robert weiss \) family mean jesus created , rather lucifer robert weiss agree heresy \? sweating blood basic mormon doctrine jesus perform atonement alone , anti mormons trying teach far sin whatever , biblical , specifically mormon also called sin holy ghost bible scholars \( conservative ones \) believe jehovah elohim always i'm sure 've heard j e texts \? n't know mean needed saved jesus \? jehovah \? elohim \? mormon doctrine , jesus sinless , thus need saved gordon banks n3jxp skepticism chastity intellect , geb cadre dsl pitt edu shameful surrender soon
jmk cbnews cb att com \( joseph knapp \) subject biblical backing koresh 's 3 02 tape \( cites enclosed \) organization lines 9 cotera woods ulowell edu writes david \( sp \? \) , one cult members , said fire started one tanks spraying tear gas facilities knocked lantern sort mrs o'leary 's tank theory \? joe knapp jmk att com
mlee post royalroads ca \( malcolm lee \) subject kind loving god ! ! organization royal roads military college , victoria , b c lines 70 article owl csrv uidaho edu , lanph872 crow csrv uidaho edu \( rob lanphier \) writes malcolm lee \( mlee post royalroads ca \) wrote reference leviticus 21 9 deuteronomy 22 20 25 laws written israelites , god 's chosen people god expressly set apart rest world israelites direct witness god 's existence disobey god knowing god real would outright denial god therefore immediately punishable remember , laws written different time applied god 's chosen people jesus changed living age grace sin longer immediately punishable death repentance salvation lord jesus christ chosen people salvation available everyone , jew gentile alike hmm , book applied israelites \( deuteronomy \) , jesus sure quoted lot \( mt 4 4 , 7 , 10 \) addition , several places \( mt 19 7 8 mk 10 3 5 jn 5 46 47 \) , case n't clear jesus thought old testament n't obsolete , 'll repeat verse matthew gets quoted group lot think come abolish law prophets come abolish fulfill tell truth , heaven earth disappear , smallest letter , least stroke pen , means disappear law everything accomplished anyone breaks one least commandments teaches others called least kingdom heaven , whoever practices teaches commands called great kingdom heaven tell unless righteousness pharisees teachers law , certainly enter kingdom heaven \( mt 5 17 20 niv , pretty red letters , know 's jesus talking \) causes serious dilemma christians think old testament n't apply think 's paul harvey likes quoting much \) rob lanphier lanph872 uidaho edu clarify earlier quote god 's laws originally written israelites jesus changed fact making law applicable people , jews gentiles could part kingdom heaven saving grace god never said law made obsolete jesus anything , clarified law quote made following verses , jesus takes several portions law upon law giving clearer meaning god intended 'll notice , also reams pharisees mucking law contrived interpretations knew every letter law followed heads hearts points righteousness must surpass pharisees order accepted kingdom heaven people pharisees really go way debate number angels dance head pin become legalistic , rule makers religious lawyers practiced letter law never really believed think agree today 's world , lot modern day pharisees know bible end end believe good head knowledge nothing heart \? christianity set rules 's lifestyle changes one 's perspectives personal conduct demands obedience god 's people live , many others cannot choice respect god respects god , malcolm lee \)
pmoloney maths tcd ie \( paul moloney \) subject biblical backing koresh 's 3 02 tape \( cites enclosed \) organization somewhere twentieth century lines 20 cotera woods ulowell edu writes , 's proof \? suicide considered sin branch davidians also , koresh said going commit suicide furthermore , cult experts said suicidal david \( sp \? \) , one cult members , said fire started one tanks spraying tear gas facilities knocked lantern two places \? bit coincidence , whatever faults fbi , fact responsibility deaths lies koresh p moorcockpratchettdenislearydelasoulu2iainmbanksneworderheathersbatmanpjorourke clive p u l l n e come , let us retract foreskin misconception james trinity college dublin apply wire brush enlightenment geoffm brownbladerunnersugarcubeselectronicblaylockpowersspikeleekatebushhamcornpizza
mlee post royalroads ca \( malcolm lee \) subject kind loving god ! ! organization royal roads military college , victoria , b c lines 32 article sandvik sandvik kent apple com , sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) writes article 1993apr20 643 ra royalroads ca , mlee post royalroads ca \( malcolm lee \) wrote understand sympathize pain happened waco sad n't take us christians though branch davidians organized religion cult led ego cult leader christian faith stands shoulders one man , lord lords king kings , jesus christ btw , david koresh jesus christ claimed interesting notion \( watched tv tonight \) koresh never claimed officially jesus christ believers hoped would , never took standpoint interested breaking seven seals revelation , make sure armageddon would start well , 19 children died , god saved kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net say scripture man knows hour coming , even angels heaven father \? dk trying play god breaking seals dk killed many followers could btw , god save children heaven , far better place know \? faith god , malcolm lee \)
b ic ac uk subject risen ! organization imperial college group lines 8 nntp posting host cs utexas edu remark heard david koresh risen dead dont know true , told guys think \? ben l
whitten saic com \( david whitten \) subject merlin , mithras magick organization science applications int'l , corp computer systems operation lines 20 caldwell facman ohsu edu \( larry caldwell \) writes evidently feast bread wine associated mithras often wondered intentionally introduced ritual expand appeal religion , appropriated later worshipers could argue wanted , think reasonable argument would point fact feast similar pesach \( passover \) meal seder , jewish ritual fact appears abuse early church people eating much \( real concern passover meals \) treating meal respect , shows ritual bread wine way dealing inherent problems people 's human nature , trying keep essentials aspects david \( whitten saic com \) us \( 619 \) 535 n't speak company rep
jmeritt mental mitre org subject sword organization utexas mail news gateway lines 13 nntp posting host cs utexas edu 20 13 lord thy god hath delivered thine hands , thou shalt every male thereof edge sword joshua 6 21 utterly destroyed city , man women , young old , ox , sheep , ass , edge sword joshua 10 32 lord delivered hand israel , took second day , edge sword , souls therein , according done
pmy vivaldi acc virginia edu \( pete yadlowsky \) subject 's next \? mormons jews \? organization university virginia lines 14 john berryhill , ph writes n't know 's next , hope 's people pick noses driving umm , please n't lump us together 's blatant , fundamentalist give rest us bad name us try hard stay alert peter yadlowsky wake ! sky light ! academic computing center let us net university virginia companion keyboard pmy virginia edu basho
mike lbl gov \( michael helm \) subject religion history real discuss organization n c e lines 38 reply mike lbl gov \( michael helm \) nntp posting host 128 3 128 82 matthew huntbach writes sm \? real christian unless 're born fundamental biblical sm \? conversion part small usa based cult born tag often use mean specifically undergone sort ecstatic experience \( fact easily manufactured little psychological manipulation \) , often whose christianity little intellectual , result cults , seems like rather term , pretty big usa quite respectable resemble branch davidians least confusing mistake live let live , folks \? i'm sure uncover extremist loonies catholic anti abortion movement usa seems hard cases , example 've often heard people use line catholics n't real christians indeed , anyone sending missionaries ireland must certainly taking line , otherwise would content christianity maintained ireland traditional catholic form \? agree matthew certainly encountered lot anti catholic religion propaganda emotion \( bigotry \) members certain religious groups also practice missionary work zeal among catholics united states , someone raised catholic rhetoric pretty putting may work better environment 's lot popular anti follow ups set elsewhere , longer seems relevant issues
clavazzi nyx cs du edu \( doge \) subject learned waco wackos keywords prophet profit organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept distribution usa lines 32 actually important things glean mess 1 \) start getting desperate answer question 's mr natural \? , buy darn near anything , means 2 \) 's still plenty made false jesus business enterprising remember 3 \) 've separated green , n't blow automatic weapons mexico put swiss bank account smile lot hand flowers airports con shrug long 4 \) never , never , never start believe ! david koresh started swallowing crap , 'd working puzzles bahamas today instead contributing layer waco 5 \) start shooting cops , 're likely shoot back 'em better shots short p right stupidity self correcting thus lesson doge south st louis dobbs approved media conspirator \( tm \) one step beyond sundays , 3 5 pm 88 1 fm st louis community radio 'll pay know really think ! j r bob dobbs
nelson p apollo hp com \( peter nelson \) subject biblical backing koresh 's 3 02 tape \( cites enclosed \) nntp posting host c ch apollo hp com organization hewlett packard corporation , chelmsford , lines 26 article 1993apr21 1 woods ulowell edu cotera woods ulowell edu writes article 1r17j9 5ie sbctri sbc com , netd susie sbc com \( \) writes article 20apr199301460499 utarlg uta edu b645zaw utarlg uta edu \( stephen \) writes think david koresh n't solid structure , sound biblical backing hour long tape broadcast , n't think anyone really cares solid structure sermon 's deaths 's responsible concern people assume evidence responsible deaths \? koresh nut , okay \? , 'd like see evidence nut , clearly liar said would surrender local radio stations broadcast message , n't said would surrender passover , n't none excuses gross incompetence disregard safety children displayed feds someone else pointed , chelsea clinton would probably seen restraint peter
ch981 cleveland freenet edu \( tony alicea \) subject rosicrucian order \( \) \? ! organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 13 reply ch981 cleveland freenet edu \( tony alicea \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu previous article , sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) says well , depends look interested might find latest status legal battle kent please ! n't want post , email \) n't know discussion appreciated hate newsgroups themes limited interest \) tony
rjl pitt edu \( richard j loether \) subject 's next \? mormons jews \? distribution usa organization university pittsburgh lines 38 article ctron news ctron com king ctron com \( john e king \) writes pmy vivaldi acc virginia edu \( pete yadlowsky \) writes n't christ tell disciples arm selves , shortly \? \( believe exact quote along lines , something sell buy sword \) guy preached love , power god worldly life exchange life spirit \? jesus fact command disciples arm , would take yet another reason reject christian doctrine , whatever 's worth like religions , doctrine good bad would certainly reject current implementations doctrine classic example taking scripture context 's taken luke 22 36 note vs 37 tell written must accomplished , namely , reckoned stated two swords enough group carry counted politically correct number weapons cause killed even , huh \? jesus' message one peace \( turn cheek live sword die sword etc \) yes , course , matthew 10 34 35 suppose come bring peace earth peace come bring sword rjl rich loether snail mail university pittsburgh ideas email rjl pitt edu computing info services mine , voice \( 412 \) 624 600 epsilon drive fax \( 412 \) 624 6426 pittsburgh , pa mine
cocoa netcom com subject jewish history question organization netcom online communication services \( 408 241 9760 guest \) lines 60 article 1993apr10 csi uottawa ca csi uottawa ca \( mark israel \) writes article 43y netcom com , cocoa netcom com \( little 'e' \) writes deleted tis someone told old testament books translated greek long time ago yes , 's famous version called septuagint translation made greek jews originals destroyed fire soon afterward n't know 're referring temple destroyed , manuscripts may lost , think extant hebrew manuscripts good greek ones n't know originals person telling septuagint version said greeks wonderful library alexandria full manuscripts scrolls burned soon septuagint version translated \( perhaps conceal changes different versions , perhaps part typical burning valuable things occurs changes power groups , dunno \) , wondering , since imagine jewish people somewhere must copies earlier hebrew versions , hebrew version old testament different greek derived version \? famous discrepancies \( isaiah 's prophecy young woman changed virgin , new testament writers read \) , many well , perhaps answer deleted go jewish bookstore , 'll get bible translated jews , differences interpretation , text 're translating basically want read original , buy bible contains hebrew old testament greek new testament , english translation written underneath word want bible possibly original basic text , try find samaritan bible \( good luck ! 've never seen one \) samaritans \( , good samaritans \) version 5 books moses claim jewish bible altered ezra thanks tips find someone teach samaritan \) , little 'e' \( , good samaritan hard find \? hard oh , finish \) arms , castle wetware e mail cocoa netcom com voicemail 415 337
virginia edu \( jeffery vernon parks \) subject info new age ! organization university virginia lines 1 suggestion try exposing new age douglas
organization penn state university psuvm psu edu subject abortion private health coverage letters regarding sandvik sandvik kent apple com agate berkeley edu rpi edu nyikos milo math scarolina edu lines 41 article nyikos milo math scarolina edu , nyikos math scarolina edu \( peter nyikos \) says rpi edu rocker acm rpi edu \( rocker \) writes agate berkeley edu dzkriz ocf berkeley edu \( dennis kriz \) writes one paying private health insurance plan want abortion coverage reason person pay \( one compelled pay coverage one n't want kind coverage \) appear ignorant underlying concept health insurance less ignorant \? ever heard life insurance premiums companies give charged much smaller premiums smokers \? mention auto insurance much cheaper women 25 men 25 , women average drive carefully men fact , almost carefully 25 many people mentioned , reason insurers could offer contract without abortion services different premium problem guarantee premium would lower chose type contract although removing one service , may types covered care results net increase actuarial costs example opposite direction , may possible add services insurance contract reduce premium add preventative services reduces acute care use , total premium may fall words thoughts bound swear allegiance word master storm carries , put port make shea , psu home
mlee post royalroads ca \( malcolm lee \) subject kind loving god ! ! organization royal roads military college , victoria , b c lines 99 article owl csrv uidaho edu , lanph872 crow csrv uidaho edu \( rob lanphier \) writes malcolm lee \( mlee post royalroads ca \) wrote consider neo nazis white christian \? 'd hardly classify christian follow teachings christ \? love one another love neighbour love enemies jesus christ lord saviour \? persecution jews , violating christ died direct violation teachings christ even jesus crucified jewish leaders time , loved enemies asking father forgiveness sins christian bear animosity towards jews one else enemy satan , fellow man mark 16 16 , jesus quoted saying whoever believes baptized saved , whoever believe condemned consider neo nazis white christians \) say b \) feel necessary justify actions bible say bible christians supposed persecute jews \? n't love enemies instead \? may say christian actions speak differently \? believe everyone tells \? n't came believe god investigation conclusions ultimately choice salvation , however , granted grace god bible provides us clear definition christian tells us christian , goes say long believe , sins forgiven christian model oneself jesus christ implied name christian say believe head feel heart , say belief \? white neo nazis may brand christian , believing christ , christian white neo nazis brand christian hate see love god cannot see \? belief entail \? believing christ sins forgiven name give christian free licence sin repent sin ask forgiveness sin try christian , lump racists accuse , pre judging \? btw , chinese racial background know part visible minority country n't think would looked upon white christians call anyone say believe , n't practice preach , belief false concur \? , original statement bothers people religious affiliation continue persecute jews \? hatred jews \? majority people persecute jews christians \( ca n't speak christians bound anti semitism bandwagon \) imply atheists agnostics persecute jews hard pressed think even example jewish persecution hands atheists agnostics nazis racists general ones come immediate attention believe people may using bible mask racial intolerance bigotry hide behind christianity tell jesus would nothing one comes mind would former soviet union , many religious people suffered sort persecution \( mention many atheist agnostics suffered persecution believing government sucked \) arguement rob lanphier lanph872 uidaho edu point i'm trying make call christian may christian ask draw conclusions say example jesus christ christian repented sins accepted jesus christ personal lord saviour christian criteria christian may god , malcolm lee \)
hertz njit edu \( david \) subject 's next \? mormons jews \? organization new jersey institute technology , newark , n j lines 22 nntp posting host hertz njit edu article 4t transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com \( c tavares \) writes maybe wo n't home come home something like well , 's rough month , begins lawmaster get laid , divorce became final n't ready happened particular monday horror story fbi ruining guy 's life hell omitted n't want tea party held awkward silence , make sure lawyer n't , 's good chap , real story work fiction \? sources \? , , newspaper get \? hypothetical \? david apple ii forever steve hertz njit edu drank \? socrates
kv07 iastate edu \( warren vonroeschlaub \) subject albert sabin reply kv07 iastate edu \( warren vonroeschlaub \) organization ministry silly walks lines 30 article 1993apr15 225657 17804 rambo atlanta dg com , wpr atlanta dg com \( bill rawlins \) writes since referred messiah , assume referring new testament please detail complaints e mail n't want post first century greek well known well understood considered josephus , jewish historian , also wrote jesus \? addition , four gospel accounts much harmony bill , find rather remarkable managed zero probably weakest evidence probably convincing anti christian literature put jewish councils second century enormous quantities detailed arguments christianity , many arguments still used today despite volumes tracts attacking christianity , one denies existance jesus , activities find considerably compelling josephus harmony gospels \( especially considering matthew luke probably used mark source \) l warren kurt vonroeschlaub kv07 iastate edu ` ' iowa state university math department 400 carver hall ames , ia 50011 j
ece 0028 bigdog engr arizona edu \( david anderson \) subject christian owned organization list organization university arizona lines 15 article 1993apr13 mnemosyne cs du edu kcochran nyx cs du edu \( keith justified ancient cochran \) writes article sdcc12 ucsd edu shopper ucsd edu writes anyone know find list christian owned corporations companies \? one know wordperfect believe wordperfect actually owned mormons sorry , mormons n't generally considered christians kcochran nyx cs du edu b \( 0 4 \) c e f g k \( \) r \( \) \( \) tsakc thoughts , posts , ideas , responsibility , beer , pizza ok \? \? \? pumps purse shade \? , come back me' \? i'm looking something green laurie morgan
emarsh hernes sun eng sun com \( eric marsh \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization sun lines 82 nntp posting host hernes sun article horus ap mchp sni de frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes article exodus eng sun com emarsh hernes sun eng sun com \( eric marsh \) writes article 1qjahh mrs horus ap mchp sni de frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes science \( real world \) basis values , way round , would wish thing objective value , science objectively said useful kick head simple theories accurate predictions could objectively said useful set tarot cards like conclusions \? n't think changing meaning values perhaps time take look word value n 1 fair equivalent return something , goods service 2 monetary material worth 3 worth measured usefulness importance merit 4 principle , standard , quality considered inherently worthwhile desirable 5 precise meaning , word 6 assigned calculated numerical quantity 7 mus relative tone rest 8 relative darkness color 9 distinctive quality speech speech sound context moral system , definition four seems fit best terms scientific usage , definitions six eight might apply note definitions mean thing , i'm using definition \( 3 \) , perhaps \( 4 \) cases objective worth , usefulness , importance science objective worth , usefulness , importance nothing inherently worthwhile desirable , simple theories accurate predictions inherently worthwhile desirable see flaws \? problem , use word objective along values definitions three four inherently subjective , particular given individual , personal see , one person may see worthwhile , another may see worthless hand , things objective worth , usefulness , importance , would interesting know , form measurement sentence , worth subjective provide objective foundation morality good beginning i'm willing attempt someone provides objective basis notion science useful , worthy , important dealing observed facts alternatively , could try demonstrate science necessarily useful , worthy important situation words , need know use term objective find usage word different usage word given another person , try find standard judge usage cases , dictionary standard use objective objective adj 1 material object distinguished mental concept 2 actual existance 3 emotion personal prejudice b based observable phenomenon definition , science objective worth , since phrase objective worth oxymoron however asked something little differently time , asked objective basis notion fact use science intellectual tool responsible changes world \( changes material , thus objective \) would provide objective basis argument however , conclusion arrived argument \( science good \) subjective think problem one word usage take little time read definitions words objective , subjective , worth , value , morality , good , evil believe think meaning , conclude thing objective morality frank o'dwyer 'i'm hatching that' odwyer sse ie hens , evelyn conlon eric
ece 0028 bigdog engr arizona edu \( david anderson \) subject christian owned organization list organization university arizona lines 19 article \? byu edu stephan byu edu \( stephan \) writes article 1993apr13 mnemosyne cs du edu kcochran nyx cs du edu \( keith justified ancient cochran \) writes article sdcc12 ucsd edu shopper ucsd edu writes anyone know find list christian owned corporations companies \? one know wordperfect believe wordperfect actually owned mormons sorry , wordperfect mormon lds church slight difference lds church heck lot however largest land holder missouri \( think christ appear second coming \) believe also large beverage company like pepsi \( take forbidden substance list \)
brian lpl arizona edu \( brian ceccarelli 602 621 9615 \) subject 14 apr 93 god 's promise 1 john 1 7 organization lunar planetary laboratory , tucson az lines 89 article netcom com bskendig netcom com \( brian kendig \) writes 've asked god several times heart come really wish could believe , 'cos matter much confidence build , universe big place , would nice know someone watching brian k , pleased honesty honest well , believe asked god come say \? things write net , manner write , show made god attempting pass real thing got news n't sound like mine god n't come god n't exist 've gone open mind 've layed beliefs aside time time 've doubt , 've prayed see good would n't see open god , short deciding believe good reason decide believe good reason , believe god \? zeus seems like pretty cool candidate sorry brian , read postings , see open mind see misunderstanding , lack knowledge , arrogance mockery please tell still remaining true true open mind end mockery gain knowledge real god put aside read bible know , truly , reason everything exists god much love depth goes beyond shallow worldly experience person commits seeking god , find god jesus stands door knocks person half heartedly opens bible , opens purpose find something mock , find , learn see nothing thing one gain attitude folly careful jump gun , first glance , many passages bible seem bizarre absurd assured even though seem alien first , confident assured beyond present comprehension , lies deep reasons see , indeed satisfied personally guarantee one jesus put , never thirsty cup even flow king solomon \( 970 b c 930 b c \) glory god conceal matter search matter glory kings jesus says john 6 44 55 one come unless father sent draws john 3 16 god loved world gave one son , whosoever believes shall perish eternal life included whosoever also pray father drawing , seems else would n't posting talk religion misc remember brian , could st paul making paul mocked christians , also pleasure stoning yet god showed mercy , saved , paul became celebrated men history god 's church see brian , better careful judge , could indeed next paul fervor attack christians , one day might find one , like paul , proclaim good news jesus fervor could next peter jesus said peter , jesus would probably say satan would surely like \? peter hard headed , cynical demonstrated great moments stupidity , peter committed task full heart peter apostle faith walk water jesus asked believe zeus \? zeus n't offer eternal life got nothing gain believing zeus brian ceccarelli brian lpl arizona edu
kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization case western reserve university lines 23 nntp posting host b64635 student cwru edu article 1993apr16 scic intel com scic intel com \( seth j bradley \) writes article news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu \( mike cobb \) writes n't falsifiable \? e god , world existed forever starting point \? one falsify god 's existance \? , , belief , scien premise original thread referred specifically scientific creationism means whatever theory theories propose must able judged scientific method contrast purely philosophical arguments given definite definition god , sometimes possible falsify existance god , one refuses give immutable definition , one whatever promises made broken john laws , man without honor keep given word
bobsarv microsoft com \( bob sarver \) subject really rise \? \? \? organization microsoft corp distribution usa lines 85 \( emery \) one single historic event biggest impact world centuries resurrection jesus hardly possible , majority people world born , lived life , died , without ever knowing anything christ majority rest world decided emery thinks \( emery \) writers new testament documents convinced jesus really rise dead \? four gospel accounts leaving proofs emery 's rely quoting bible proof circular reasoning , etc occasions already stated many times later generations change , edit , otherwise alter bible fit political gospel accept bible true bible says true , \( fair \) bhagavad gita koran , contradict bible enough said \( emery \) yet reason believe disciples immoral dishonest historic information would lead us conclusion people god fearing people sincerely whole heartedly believed resurrection lord jesus real event gain would lie \? make stand time meant persecution , imprisonment , perhaps even death , biblical account independent proof happening n't besides , simply sincere willing die faith make faith correct muslims dying bosnia right fact willing die islam mean islam correct religion \? \( emery \) history bears persecution christians roman historian , cornelius , asia , 112 , writing nero 's reign , alluded torture christians rome proven people tortured faith prove faith true correct means sincere beliefs willing die believe n't make belief truth 's easy minority religions always suffered torture muslims suffer torture harassment india bosnia today religions harassed china today n't proven anything far \( emery \) suffering persecution meant believer , would quite probable least one supposed conspiracy would come forward confess whole thing big hoax n't believe hoax \( emery \) yet one seems rather reasonable disciples make resurrection sincerely believed jesus actually risen dead especially light sufferings came upon believed followers muhammad firmly believed miracles koran says muhammad performed attacked slaughtered beliefs n't denounce muhammad islam correct , means islam true faith see stupid proofs \?
bobsarv microsoft com \( bob sarver \) subject judas , crucifixion , tyre , etc organization microsoft corp distribution usa lines 16 \( frank decenso \) \? 's evident texts ezek 26 28 god n't concerned buildings structures god concerned people people leadership \( ezek 28 \) never return city others may come later built city , people leadership god prophesied ezek 26 28 never rebuilt city people leaders incredibly fucking stupid course text referring city \( buildings , bricks , , etc \) otherwise makes sense refer future tyre reduced nothing place spread fishing nets twisting text semantic game wo n't preserve faith admission error , decenso \?
bobsarv microsoft com \( bob sarver \) subject judas , crucifixion , tyre , etc organization microsoft corp distribution usa lines 32 \( frank decenso \) need things life , board important course forms big part self respect come onto board , thinking 're sort faith , routinely get roasted grill stupid theories unfounded assumptions \( frank decenso \) board wait \( ever \) organize life fit tried dropping , sieferman coerced come back wo n't time doubt sieferman anything dropping 's probably closer truth say n't cards play game \( insist playing losing hand \) , 're finally realizing board , keep quiet , looking area certain correct , 'll see pop back course , say merely returned life order 'll know better
brian lpl arizona edu \( brian ceccarelli 602 621 9615 \) subject good jesus died \? organization lunar planetary laboratory , tucson az lines 71 article netcom com bskendig netcom com \( brian kendig \) writes john 12 24 26 assuredly , say , unless grain wheat falls onto ground dies , remains alone dies , produces much grain loves life lose , hates life world keep eternal life anyone serves , let follow , servant also anyone serves , father honor would want eternal life hate one \? , missed jesus 's point read surrounding passages would understand jesus means life world , around , asserted standard axiom bible bunk , came wrong idea also , know exactly jesus means eternal life brian k , expect jump middle quantum mechanics book understand read surrounding material \? bible \? idea jesus means world , look references concordance good description , whole book ecclesiastes game eternal life , check john 17 3 , john 3 15 16 find eternal life quite different think eternal life starts infinitely high quality life living fellowship god short even deity exist , n't automatically mean would worship content live life , fend , die , proud fact matter end , actions choices god decides toss flaming pit , would much rather cease exist god wants respect obedience , better earn , strong true diety exists , would cease exist jesus talks hell luke 16 19 31 've got understand point view see christians spouting bible verse time sort magic spell level opposition truth , 's robert never demonstrated actually understands verses imply rattles day day fly face common sense reality , point truth , sort magic spell truth understand , enjoy understanding nice belief set around nice book wrong christianity supposed relationship even know christianity arguing opinion , 're bumbling blindly making entities n't , depriving true understanding enjoyment life long keep beliefs , 'll keep beliefs soon start waving around , expect toss opinions , make places jericho , jerusalem , babylon , , ephesus , , kings , david , solomon , , herod , pilate guess treat abraham lincoln myth like odin zeus
matmcinn nuscc nus sg \( matthew macintyre national university senegal \) subject gilligan 's island , den iniquity organization national university singapore x newsreader tin 1 1 pl4 lines 21 beb pt com \( bruce buck \) writes article 1993apr13 nuscc nus sg matmcinn nuscc nus sg \( matthew macintyre national university senegal \) writes gilligan skipper anger howell iii greed howell lust professor pride mary ann envy assorted monkeys secular humanism assorted godless , heathen russian agent looks like gilligan godless communism japanese godless barbarism walter godless bird \( bingo , , bongo , irving \) godless harold \( phil silvers \) hollywood john tonga , fake deceit , lust eva grubb deceit , lust
kde boi hp com \( keith emmen \) subject message mr president know happened \? organization hewlett packard boise , idaho x newsreader tin 1 1scd1 pl4 lines 23 tbrent bank ecn purdue edu \( timothy j brent \) writes probably , n't pack heavy weaponry intent use n't really think allowed keep stuff \? , tell live sure steer well clear understand neccessary licenses permits automatic weapons public also rights , placed individual go ahead , call commie , 'd singing different tune exercised right rape daughter broke law , threat society , job simple n't seen proof \( even evidence \) bd 's broken law proof \( evidence \) , let 's hear fbi said evidence 'll support \( except 2 \) guess always people wish peasants politicians prefer unarmed peasants
kde boi hp com \( keith emmen \) subject biblical backing koresh 's 3 02 tape \( cites enclosed \) organization hewlett packard boise , idaho x newsreader tin 1 1scd1 pl4 lines 11 oryx com \( stephen l favor \) writes seems koresh yet another messenger got killed message carried \( says nothing character messenger \) reckon 'll find rest hard way koresh killed wanted lots illegal guns n't heard illegal guns found accused paying taxes legal guns
kde boi hp com \( keith emmen \) subject biblical backing koresh 's 3 02 tape \( cites enclosed \) organization hewlett packard boise , idaho x newsreader tin 1 1scd1 pl4 lines 8 nelson p apollo hp com \( peter nelson \) writes nut , clearly liar said would surrender local radio stations broadcast message , n't said would surrender passover , n't fbi said would surrender n't know said
pegasus aaa uoregon edu \( pegasus \) subject merlin , mithras magick organization group lines 13 distribution world nntp posting host fp1 dialin 6 uoregon edu article joshua bailey cpac washington edu , joshua cpac washington edu \( joshua geller \) wrote would really appreciate someone brought something like n't back someone asked details josh excuse ! trying back josh , maybe try make informed responce trying pack , references packed ! someone responses like \( grin \) pegasus
agr00 ccc amdahl com \( anthony g rose \) subject 's next \? mormons jews \? reply agr00 juts ccc amdahl com \( anthony g rose \) organization amdahl corporation , sunnyvale ca lines 18 article 1993apr20 456 ra royalroads ca mlee post royalroads ca \( malcolm lee \) writes article world std com , world std com \( joseph h allen \) writes article clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com \( jim de arras \) writes interesting watch 700 club today pat robertson said branch dividians met end worshipping false god also said terrible tragedy fbi really blew n't necessarily agree pat robertson every one placed judgement seat eventually judged done failed earth god allows people choose want worship i'm sorry , ! ever read first commandment \? worship money one greatest religions country mean , false religion !
v2110a vm temple edu \( richard hoenes \) subject message mr president know happened \? organization temple university lines 31 nntp posting host vm temple edu x newsreader nnr vm 1 3 2 article netcom com netcom com writes obviously lot different ordinary fbi adventure believe federal officers conflict interests throught whole affair , chiefly concerned saving face rather saving lifes true bd resisting arrest surrendered first realized federal officers didn`t i'm sure mean unless confusing fbi batf ones charge original search warrant didn`t , fbi treated hostage situation , n't think discussions , possible independant negotiators , family intervention used independant negotiators \? negotiate \? sort plea brought court , negotiators ca n't negotiate charges sentences fbi make deal dividians come koresh showed negotiating good faith reason believe independent negotiators would done better richard
ccsua ctstateu edu subject message mr president know happened \? keywords success lines 140 nntp posting host ccsua ctstateu edu organization yale university , department computer science , new , ct told friends mine two weeks ago koresh dead fbi batf could let man like live testimonial stupidity lies everyone gets crazy , let say koresh crazy bed bug , government lied us told us compound quite time yet , whoever watching place failed see koresh went jogging town regular basis everyone area claimed seen wondered n't pick two possible answers first , n't see kind \? second , n't care wanted confrontation wanted publicity got first battle , told us know knew coming also said would foolish go knowing well , know intercepted informants call went anyway explore possibilities ending seige \? according , according hartford courant , woman raised koresh \( grandmother \) allowed go see fbi agent spoke bob ricks according paper said lot people think talk logically come grandmother raised vernon howell \( koresh 's real name \) n't raise david koresh someone raises loves speak logical level also emotional level reach 's another one operation fbi claiming feared mass suicide one reasons something must done claim never thought would \? knew going something started talking much money costing start justification part part plan 's knew would come soon , back plan considered cruel punishment execute criminals minds many people , look 's acceptable knew parents \( adults \) gas masks know , sure , children plan pour gas compound mothers , seeing gas children supposed run would leave men deal spent two years army like veteran went cbr \( chemical , biological \) warfare training part training going room filled stuff children subjected make stuff really interesting gas also chemical agent skin think fire doubts children would become hysterical kind thing never want plan , final solution waited 444 days hostages come home iran gave people 51 days stated several occasions absolutely nothing whole thing government could point success well , fbi agent ricks changed mind hartford courant expressing regret loss life , suggested operation least modified success single federal shot fired single federal agent hurt took 17 dead children get us new definition success one thought government claimed believed automatic weapons premises license 50 caliber machine gun ! knew damn well one also knew legally ! still , without element surprise sent agents get president takes full responsibility guy ! hope gets article exuptr 0 exu ericsson se , exuptr exu ericsson se \( patrick taylor , sounding board \) writes article cs edu bill triangle cs edu \( bill \) writes go batf fbi blame incident , probably aware two important facts 1 thing non toxic tear gas tear gas non breathable remaining 's presence cause nausea vomiting , followed eventually death fbi know physical health people exposed \? \? potential heart problems among b 's \? \? doubt dangerous stuff concentrated 2 ever seen tear gas canister \? \? tear gas produced burning chemical fumes produced tear gas canister warning printed side contact material result fire , many canisters throw inside building fire trap \? \? none used non methods , means produced gas outside building pumped via tanks visit sounding board bbs 1 214 596 2915 , ! bbs opinions specifically disclaimed one responsible patrick taylor , ericsson network systems thx 1138 exuptr exu ericsson se n't let se fool
spl pitstop ucsd edu \( steve lamont \) subject message mr president know happened \? organization university calif , san diego microscopy imaging resource lines 24 nntp posting host pitstop ucsd edu article boi hp com dianem boi hp com \( diane mathews \) writes dear brother bill , one way another much patience bad could n't wait prospect god 's message much take \? want president specifically order every activity fbi , \? willing blame reagan bush , directly , incidents took place war drugs administration \? going blame bush fact weaver 's wife , infant , son killed \? happened president consider thousands central america killed brave cia nsc sponsored freedom fighters thus far , slick willie spl steve lamont , sciviguy \( 619 \) 534 7968 spl szechuan ucsd edu san diego microscopy imaging resource uc san diego la jolla , ca 92093 0608 car car , bumper strip seen 805
susan uchicago edu \( susan \) subject wanted 's god creation organization important lines 15 i'm greatly need jurgen 's book god creation ecological doctrine creation copy 're willing part , 'd love hear soon may call 312 702 e mail thanks susan independent agent susan uchicago edu
cj eno esd sgi com \( c j silverio \) subject abortion private health coverage letters regarding reply cj sgi com organization sgi developer lines 20 psuvm psu edu writes example opposite direction , may possible add services insurance contract reduce premium add preventative services reduces acute care use , total premium may fall women known want abortion services , example , might judged likely require prenatal care coverage childbirth order magnitude expensive abortion topic really restricted talk abortion , exists relieve r p abortion flamage c j silverio cj sgi com well sf ca us melbourne , fla , meanwhile , anti abortion celebrate death dr david gunn praise god ! shouted \( ny daily news , fri march 12 , p 20 \)
moscow uidaho edu \( rob lanphier \) subject kind loving god ! ! organization university idaho lines 104 distribution world nntp posting host snake cs uidaho edu x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl8 malcolm lee \( mlee post royalroads ca \) wrote clarify earlier quote god 's laws originally written israelites jesus changed fact making law applicable people , jews gentiles could part kingdom heaven saving grace god never said law made obsolete jesus reference , 's earlier quote malcolm lee \( mlee post royalroads ca \) wrote reference leviticus 21 9 deuteronomy 22 20 25 laws written israelites , god 's chosen people god expressly set apart rest world israelites direct witness god 's existence disobey god knowing god real would outright denial god therefore immediately punishable remember , laws written different time applied god 's chosen people jesus changed living age grace sin longer immediately punishable death repentance salvation lord jesus christ chosen people salvation available everyone , jew gentile alike two conflicting statements say one clarification breach logic n't mind people shifting position issue said premise change made deuteronomy 22 20 25 \? wrong \? jesus change \? anything , clarified law quote made following verses , jesus takes several portions law upon law giving clearer meaning god intended sure however , n't address notion stoning non virgin , needs clarification going deny deuteronomy 22 20 25 patently clear intent \? think agree today 's world , lot modern day pharisees know bible end end believe good head knowledge nothing heart \? 'll agree lot modern day pharisees know bible end end n't believe depending use knowledge , scary argue position desire , back selected parts bible pharisees include david koresh hitler qualify saying n't know actually believed preaching , ends certainly made means look frightening however , scary n't know much bible , believe every word fact , probably , since far people , 've seen addition , easy manipulate aforementioned pharisees , since n't know enough debate people christianity set rules 's lifestyle changes one 's perspectives personal conduct demands obedience god 's , demands obedience book god came personally told behave , would say would god 's however , preachers , pastors , evangelists tell obey book written people dead close two millenia \( even longer ot \) , even follow everything heart , could scarcely honest saying i'm god people live , many others cannot choice respect god respects well , god respects much , come talk bible eternal damnation non believers \? see little respect god bible see selfish god god , , thanks \) malcolm lee \) rob lanphier snake cs uidaho edu lanph872 uidaho edu curious , earlier post hmm , book applied israelites \( deuteronomy \) , jesus sure quoted lot \( mt 4 4 , 7 , 10 \) addition , several places \( mt 19 7 8 mk 10 3 5 jn 5 46 47 \) , case n't clear jesus thought old testament n't obsolete , 'll repeat verse matthew gets quoted group lot think come abolish law prophets come abolish fulfill tell truth , heaven earth disappear , smallest letter , least stroke pen , means disappear law everything accomplished anyone breaks one least commandments teaches others called least kingdom heaven , whoever practices teaches commands called great kingdom heaven tell unless righteousness pharisees teachers law , certainly enter kingdom heaven \( mt 5 17 20 niv , pretty red letters , know 's jesus talking \) causes serious dilemma christians think old testament n't apply think 's paul harvey likes quoting much \)
pharvey quack kfu com \( paul harvey \) subject 's next \? mormons jews \? organization duck pond public unix 1 408 249 9630 , log 'guest' lines 13 article murdoch acc virginia edu pmy vivaldi acc virginia edu \( pete yadlowsky \) writes ken arromdee writes know men federal officers \? know knock search \? yes , tell think question answers question bds n't know immediately dealing feds \( uniform , insignia \) , must figured pretty short order keep fighting \? seemed awfully ready attacked without warning oh , bloody sorry old chap , n't tell \? tough luck , eh \? 's \? say 're dead yet \?
tims megatek com \( tim scott \) subject rfd misc taoism reply tims megatek com organization megatek corporation , san diego , california lines 72 article cup portal com thyagi cup portal com \( thyagi morgoth nagasiva \) writes would like add support misc taoism discussion group applaud shown person posting cup portal com thyagi cup portal com \( read alt magick \) , differ believing least minimal parameters agreed upon thyagi wrote recommend depth generality , indeed , ambiguity , newsgroup \( misc taoism \) calling tradition old new rather unnecessary , leads foolish doubt nature splendid teacher , whether appears words spoken tree stream , star let us limit n't limit something , discussion degenerates big amorphous questions thyagi proposes 1 \) process \? 2 \) taoism based upon assumption \? 3 \) assumption concern knowledge known \? 4 \) value knowing \? 5 \) 'a \? mean \? seems questions properly fall category general metaphysics would prefer misc taoism deal closely topics works closely associated least semi orthodox taoism established classic works definitely included works like chia 's argued ! think neo taoism excluded get group \( mean humpty dumpty taoism , taoism means whatever poster says means \) alt taoism could also refuge debates taoism really means speculations sexual alchemy , etc e g \( thyagi \) taoism hell wants , tell taoism n't exist real decide , real real \? exist exist \? shall certain kent predicts \( quoting thyagi 's article \) however traffic group likely concern philosophical , secular taoism alan watts niels bohr , taoism pertains medical , sexual martial techniques think discussions nature completely place 's happening term taoism becoming completely polluted trivialized like words magic , alchemy , zen , etc , writers word mean whatever want seen new age books entitled tao , , everything else \( respect exceptions like books , \) comments ideas \? look forward seeing balance , say let misc taoism rip let chips fall may gets filled college asking tao sex failure people post groups tim p scott sending megatek corporation \( 619 \) 455 ext rd san diego , ca usa fax \( 619 \) 453 internet tims megatek com uunet ! megatek ! tims
agr00 ccc amdahl com \( anthony g rose \) subject davidians compassion reply agr00 juts ccc amdahl com \( anthony g rose \) organization amdahl corporation , sunnyvale ca lines 31 article sandvik 190493200420 sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) writes highly christian religious order put fire house , killing people inside i'm annoyed adults , knew supposedly , 's actions mostly angry fact people inside , including mothers , let children suffer die awful conditions considered religious following end , i'm proud n't follow fanatical non compassionate religions might want die whatever purpose , please spare innocent young ones nothing hard time understanding christianity knows word compassion christians , think actions today would produce good picture religion \? kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net surely equating david koresh christianity \? two comparable
agr00 ccc amdahl com \( anthony g rose \) subject 's next \? mormons jews \? reply agr00 juts ccc amdahl com \( anthony g rose \) organization amdahl corporation , sunnyvale ca lines 16 article 93109 byuvm bitnet isscck byuvm bitnet \( casper c knies \) writes please allow explain , governor missouri , casper c knies isscck byuvm bitnet brigham young university isscck vm byu edu ucs computer facilities , deceive everone thinking latter day saints undergone undue persecution years believing religion , perhaps would like tell us happened mountain meadow massacres killings done blood atonement doctrine , command brigham young \?
agr00 ccc amdahl com \( anthony g rose \) subject info new age ! reply agr00 juts ccc amdahl com \( anthony g rose \) organization amdahl corporation , sunnyvale ca lines 12 article geraldo cc utexas edu hawk ccwf cc utexas edu writes greetings ! could anybody give information new age religion \? history , teachings , \? \? \? may suggestions books read order get info \? help would greatly appreciated contact watchman fellowship p box , ut ask book new age space age heresies new age schools
skinner csrd uiuc edu \( gregg skinner \) subject davidians compassion reply g skinner uiuc edu organization uiuc center supercomputing research development lines 26 sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) writes article 1993apr20 569 ra royalroads ca , mlee post royalroads ca \( malcolm lee \) wrote judge christians acts would call christian yet \? bd 's contradicted scripture actions christian simple perhaps read much media portrayed ask true believing christian find deny association bd 's even 7th day adventists denied ties cult , well , satanists , followers obscure religion , would sure christians would unison condemn make show case might sure , would also wrong show dangers religion order word mind virus make mothers capable letting small children burn ashes scream \? suspect answer question answer , actions likes stalin show dangers atheism \?
brian lpl arizona edu \( brian ceccarelli 602 621 9615 \) subject good jesus died \? organization lunar planetary laboratory , tucson az lines 110 jesus verdict light come world , men loved darkness instead light deeds evil everyone evil hates light , come light fear deeds exposed kent sandvik says seems dealing black white interpretation brian , subtly accusing evil things never saw light \? however , even confusing even admit n't like situation i'm informed black white hidden agenda behind , stop trying look one easy straight forward reads kent , accusing evil things jesus accusing accusing accusing everyone , everyone world guilty whether one sees light seen light nothing whether evil things regardless jesus uses word men included jesus jesus making general statement sad state man christians evil things christian person holy spirit christian see evil evil brought light jesus saying evil exposed , christian stop evil n't seen jesus 's light , evil deeds simply n't exposed light may shed light human spirit shines perhaps 1 holy spirit shines holy spirit shine light places inside us n't even know existed see jesus 's point \? christians perfect perfect want come light jesus see problems lives , like sight ugly thing see far fallen jesus 's perspective think want know really ignorant \? think brian kendig wants know \? think want know \? ego verses truth , choose \? i'm watching news man saw light , made sure 19 children burned death part insight light n't think world simple act ways , i'm happy man pray never receive watched koresh , thought saw light , made sure 19 children burned death , sadly , part delusion even people died chose die , ignorance downfall death kent , n't bury underneath rock excuse like bringing koresh koresh actually truth david koresh light excuse stay away real jesus christ david koresh , claimed jesus , fraud obvious david koresh born america jesus born bethlehem koresh n't even good missed obvious point jesus warned end times david koresh n't anything new jesus jesus told us aware 2000 years ago next time makes scene claims jesus ask obvious born \? mother 's name mary \? branch davidians asked simple question , would labeled koresh liar right start would n't followed koresh would n't died look happened ignorance cost lives choice ignorant cost lot kent , since studied bible , remember tactic satan used try jesus \? satan quote bible context \? remember tactic serpent genesis used eve \? god \? satan used eve succeeded , ploy tried jesus jesus 's case , jesus rebuked satan back bible context n't work jesus satan eve garden satan tried jesus desert remind koresh followers \? koresh emulate \? koresh 's teacher \? koresh followers satan eve koresh kill \? satan cause adam eve die well \? cult followers believe koresh even though knew real christ born bethlehem \? eve choose eat tree knowledge good evil despite knowing would cause death \? god held responsible deceiver none excuse opposed branch davidians , second chance follow jesus escort us path eternal life n't follow jesus , stand condemned already , like branch davidian complex , house already fire satan , adam eve already set slow burn , burning nevertheless
an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) subject message mr president know happened \? organization case western reserve university , cleveland , oh \( usa \) lines 15 reply an030 cleveland freenet edu \( broward horne \) nntp posting host hela ins cwru edu previous article , spl pitstop ucsd edu \( steve lamont \) says consider thousands central america killed brave cia nsc sponsored freedom fighters thus far , slick willie weight americans equal n't
mlee post royalroads ca \( malcolm lee \) subject 's next \? mormons jews \? organization royal roads military college , victoria , b c distribution usa lines 21 article blue cis pitt edu , rjl pitt edu \( richard j loether \) writes yes , course , matthew 10 34 35 suppose come bring peace earth peace come bring sword remember armor god \? sword christians wield word god , bible god , malcolm lee \) rjl rich loether snail mail university pittsburgh ideas email rjl pitt edu computing info services mine , voice \( 412 \) 624 600 epsilon drive fax \( 412 \) 624 6426 pittsburgh , pa mine
mlee post royalroads ca \( malcolm lee \) subject davidians compassion organization royal roads military college , victoria , b c lines 18 article quack kfu com , pharvey quack kfu com \( paul harvey \) writes article 1993apr20 756 ra royalroads ca mlee post royalroads ca \( malcolm lee \) writes one follow teachings christ , christian easy \? would exclude self proclaimed christians follow ten commandments \? matter fact , yes least strive proud boast faith 100 still human imperfect therefore , liable sin thankfully , opportunity forgiveness god , malcolm lee \)
subject 's next \? mormons jews \? casper c knies isscck byuvm bitnet organization brigham young university lines 148 isaac kuo \( spam berkeley edu \) writes article 93109 byuvm bitnet casper c knies isscck byuvm b gedaliah friedenberg \( friedenb maple egr msu edu \) writes latter day saint , found john 's statement ludicrous please allow explain , governor missouri , governor boggs , issued called mormon extermination order crime \( illegal activity \) latter day saints committed , religious affiliation , anti slave stance \( missouri still allowed slave practices \) , growing numbers influence missouri guess mormons got deserved , refused bow \( corrupt evil \) secular authorities disobedience brought upon persecution , murder , finally forced expulsion lands settlements significant remember secular positions held average people , time , almost americans pretty christian largely mainstream christian 's disgust practices polygamy resulted irrational hatred true , exactly problem mormon extermination order issued christian , allowed constitution united states , instituted precisely prevent incidents like order occurring first place indicated earlier posting , irrational hatred clearly evidenced individuals like robert weiss \( could gov boggs' lieutenant would fitted right , et al \) , seems modern day occurrence , based results \( slander , persecution , misrepresentation , lies , denying mormons representation user group , etc etc intent purpose , really changed \? situation entirely different today many irrational feelings beliefs justified religion n't think started religion , religion certainly helps justify perpetuate prejudices practices providing neat justification critical thought true , evidenced numerous examples , sure 're aware regard , mormon history alone indicates secular authorities \( n't even discuss 's allowing part lands becoming nerve gas atomic bomb testing grounds \) far trusted righteous things really changed better \? may born cynic , reason whatsoever case early 1980s , believe , late president kimball \( lds church leader \) strongly protested federal attempts locate mx peace keeper missile maze built utah \( yet another inspired decision secular authorities \) fortunately , opposition influential enough feds back mean secular authorities continuous group people common goal mormons \? honestly believe main reason using utah nuclear testing etc get mormons \? majority 's n't mormons \? seem searching enemy \( correction majority 's mormon \( 60 70 believe , 100 many cities settlements throughout western states \) conspiracies paranoid believe everything affects badly must done primarily purpose mean secular authorities watched , believe satan given power dominion earth divert truth , judgment , justice addition , believe adversary power influence unjust \( greed money would good example \) order bring persecution , war , oppression , evil combinations intelligent , n't suppose destroyer would yield influence foremost political power \? far utah concerned , pointed horrible examples environmental nightmares imposed upon secular authorities , brought death , disease , \( e \) environmental nation hardly paranoid , expecting much secular government may share values faith , indeed \( gov boggs et al \) may harm destroy us matter fact , prophecies church indicate future years , \( global \) persecution mormons increase intensity scope , \( paraphrasing \) wish escape persecution murder must flee zion zion \( pure heart \) established days , ain't current secular authorities rule david koresh pose great threat federal authorities security nation , john , wonder 's next personally feel try stop anyone threat life even one person sure , pose threat security nation pose threat lives followers much definite hmmm definite \? established beyond reason able doubt , alleged threat may less threat imposed upon followers batf fbi killed \? constitutional right atf officers invade upon private land force compound \? really caused murder little children \? could atf fbi presence bearing upon events \? would interpret mt masada events \? blame jews \? \( heck romans anyway \? business atf fbi waco , texas \? \? \? \) branch davidians never posed threat society like asking really caused deaths israeli olympic team 1976 \? case , police botched job well lay heavier burden terrorists would terrible mistake think sort reasoning applies case certainly , david koresh chose peaceful option , atf fbi would responsibility authorities come , issue much authorities escalated otherwise peaceful stand let 's get , force david koresh come \? \? \? gassing \? \? \? naive , \? played right hands apocalyptic thinking individual \( prepared people years \) , one plan place deal scenario \? \? \? feel authorities responsibility protect citizens , even religious zealots , guilty paying 200 gun license \? \? \? \( batf become extension local tax collectors \? \) david koresh , doubt , described evil guy \( \) , actions valiant brave officers characterizing atf fbi inaccurate unfair order executioner , least one must done intent kill que \? \? intrusion private property semi 's , loaded life ammunition , n't implicit intent \( least prepared \) kill \? ask , would batf warrant stand civil court justice \? mind criminals \( dangerous drug lords \) brought justice , escalating events point allowing , city , destruction people \? isaac kuo \( isaackuo math berkeley edu \) lucky english find toilet amusing us , mundane functional item , \( \( basis entire culture ! von casper c knies isscck byuvm bitnet brigham young university isscck vm byu edu ucs computer facilities
subject 's next \? mormons jews \? isscck byuvm bitnet organization brigham young university lines 160 dan sorenson \( viking iastate edu \) writes netcom com mcclary netcom com \( michael mcclary \) writes thought 'd clear murky areas actually , surviving driven , later carthage , mormons utah still arm defend faith , stockpile food well involved quite lot illegal activity including multiple \( often underage \) wives leaders practice still vogue sect parallels koresh joseph smith striking , mean leaders lds church \? grant joseph smith still alive , plenty accusations filed , little bearing reality , evidenced various verdicts studied lds history 15 years , yet see prove lds leadership involved , quote illegal activities plural marriage , yes , charge underage wives sounds like could originated , high moral standards characterized leaders families , unlike , appears , david koresh joseph smith started sect brother murdered , il jail cell , church membership split follow initially , smith considered prophet \( like mohammed , rather interesting parallel considering muslims consider christ prophet jews , i'm led understand make mistake , messiah 're talking smith \) neither claim church reflects moral aptitude leaders \( especially joseph smith \) , nothing highest respect inspired man , whose crime refused deny seen vision many tried explain smith phenomenon away , bold presence 8 5 million member strong church stands witness joseph smith 's testimony enough power carry message thought time gift prophecy handed father son joseph smith died , son entering teens brigham young others claimed gift leadership prior death council twelve , church governing body , n't much help , basic conflict still wedge sects brigham young took followers salt lake rest waited smith jr grow enough assume leadership claimants leadership soon ignored , like mike \) rest excommunicated members church , great majority membership , twelve , various auxiliary organizations , chose accept brigham young new prophet leader church knew lds scriptures doctrine , would known brigham young first line fill prophet joseph smith 's senior apostle , various comments made joseph indicated brigham would lead latter day exodus west rightful heirs either dead \( smith \) excommunicated \( oliver \) , persecutions intensified , joseph smith already given orders look new place , empty land beyond boundaries united states \( time \) principle \( \) well understood great majority lds faithful , questioned granted , couple yourselfers stayed behind , unwilling sacrifice undertake perilous journey unknown , also necessary separate wheat church purification process became even unified willing carry mission world sects practiced 1 year food stockpile doctrine , frontier farming country carried least owned weapons little evidence sect , given tended move rather face large scale opposition brigham young , suffered great deal getting salt lake , seems quite justified making military training good thing remember , far beyond even us army went , people nobody turn save little context put perspective btw , since church jesus christ latter day saints \( one largest denominations country \) sect \? \? \? n't splinter religion , say , southern baptists methodists mormons get \? seems j edgar hoover impressed way kept secrets \( 're pledged defend secrets lives atone sin blood many actually even point suicide \) suicide sinful law god comfortable alleged mammon assure many among us reject attitude categorically period true allegiance god leaders appointed represent regard , read trash \( suicide atone sins blood \) yet another insulting misrepresentation church believes stands rlds , lds , friendly rivals lds delight telling stories , generates quick lds members everybody grand time time ever even heard hinted i'm taking salt block make really big salt mountain top hired virtually one mormons , fbi almost exclusively staffed members church later day saints though j edgar finally gone , fbi personnel \( especially field agents \) still heavily mormon often wondered might affect fbi 's treatment religious organizations mormon would consider heretical even true \( reliable data , please \) , convinced officers would perform highest codes honor conduct \( 's selected first place , remember \? \) besides , one articles faith strongly states principle freedom religion , people free worship , , may 's true , would little affect lds rlds philosophy religions strayed true church set jesus , god judge merits addition , rlds also contend \( lds may well \) ignorance true way \( tm \) excuse condemned tought way rejected short , lds rlds suffer everybody lutherans buddhists , secure knowledge though wrong penalized ignorance likely hoover liked rather strict forbade alcohol , tobacco , hot drink \( like coffee tea \) , like people salt earth easily made follow orders vices used good explanation , accept right lds people sometimes little cosy mammon 's orders \( late president kimball , example , exception strong opposition selection mx peace keeper missile maze utah \) 's somewhat educated guess , anyway sects splinter groups n't mirror masses , small rare , hardly worth noting common ancestry none relevance guns , though man 's religion used deny right self protection weapons suitable job , 'll find ally dan sorenson , dod 1066 z1dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu censors read , say n't blame usenet post exotic , distant machines meet exciting , unusual people flame casper c knies isscck byuvm bitnet brigham young university isscck vm byu edu ucs computer facilities
f gautjw ccsvax sfasu edu subject message mr president know happened \? organization stephen f austin state university lines 24 article 1993apr21 1 ccsua ctstateu edu , ccsua ctstateu edu writes told friends mine two weeks ago koresh dead fbi batf could let man like live testimonial stupidity lies deleted unfortunately , think 've got figured pretty well also ask question plan many months important \? government really \? seal warrant \? koresh first second amendments , among others \? waited 444 days hostages come home iran gave people 51 days joe gaut super state , really f gautjw ccsvax sfasu edu matter actually happened remember alamo truth government chooses remember waco tell justice wants happen jim garrison , new orleans , la
rwd4f poe acc virginia edu \( rob dobson \) subject message mr president know happened \? organization university virginia lines 24 article netcom com bskendig netcom com \( brian kendig \) writes used tank knock hole wall , released non toxic , non flammable tear gas building know \? \? obviously koresh nut case , \( typical \) inability government media get story straight quite disturbing tuesday night , nbc news reported fbi know place burning saw black smoke billowing building next day , fbi agents insisting saw davidians setting fire fbi also denying possible battery compound 's could accidentally set blaze , also saying able much investigating site still hot know didnt accidentally set fire sounds like fbi burned place ground destroy evidence legalize freedom
rwd4f poe acc virginia edu \( rob dobson \) subject message mr president know happened \? organization university virginia lines 12 article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) writes i'm mostly angry davidians n't spare children awful suffering see posting , i'm bad temper well , dozens children left compound original batf assualt fbi assault 7 weeks later koresh really wanted kill children , let many go \? legalize freedom
rwd4f poe acc virginia edu \( rob dobson \) subject kill sword , must killed sword organization university virginia lines 18 article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) writes happy 70 people , including innocent kids , died today \? , im especially unhappy 70 people died assault private property government armored vehicles also unhappy \( actually , suspicious \) fbi dismissing hand chances might accidentally set blaze mean , guess supposed believe ramming modified tanks walls building injecting toxic gases building routine procedures , way anything could go wrong legalize freedom
rwd4f poe acc virginia edu \( rob dobson \) subject message mr president know happened \? organization university virginia lines 18 article visser convex convex com visser convex com \( lance visser \) writes please get explaination exactly non toxic tear gas delivery system refuse believe explaination provided fbi atf without lots facts believe thing non toxic tear gas correct see today 's \( 4 21 \) washington post gas fbi used certainly fatal high concentrations course , non toxic tear gas oxymoron whole point tear gas toxic , toxic effects cause people seek fresh air legalize freedom
infoserv com \( ed , jr \) subject greek myth bible organization writer lines 28 x mailer tmail version 1 13 pegasus fp1 dialin 7 uoregon edu , pegasus aaa uoregon edu \( laurie \) wrote irrelevant inserts previous postings deleted text book used part introductory course social term myth designates traditionally based , dramatic narratives themes emphasize nature humankind 's relationship nature supernatural legends defined tales concerning times places give extensive emphasis supernatural themes legends , often myths , purely entertainment peter b 's introduction social anthropology second ed page 387 makes bible 's closet , stuffed little bit every thing wandering people pegasus n't sound lot like colorful \( otherwise \) story antiquity somehow tries \( \) explain natural \? think hear 're saying , i'm convinced know mean possibility exists looks like myth surface may much story ed , jr infoserv com
pharvey quack kfu com \( paul harvey \) subject hitler pagan christian \? \( martin luther \) cunyvm bitnet juts ccc amdahl com organization duck pond public unix 1 408 249 9630 , log 'guest' lines 10 article juts ccc amdahl com ccc amdahl com \( chris lee \) writes article cunyvm bitnet kevxu cunyvm bitnet writes irish version called st 's cross 's also three legged symbol isle man three legged symbol bit different , word ca n't recall , tri something , \? , n't know triple goddess three phases reflected females girl woman
merlyn digibd digibd com \( merlyn leroy \) subject 14 apr 93 god 's promise 1 john 1 7 nntp posting host digibd digibd com organization , incorporated , eden prairie , mn lines 13 brian lpl arizona edu \( brian ceccarelli 602 621 9615 \) writes article netcom com bskendig netcom com \( brian kendig \) writes 've asked god several times heart come brian k , pleased honesty honest well , believe asked god come say \? would contradict religious beliefs therefore , feel comfortable simply accusing sincerity , critically examine religious beliefs merlyn leroy
psyrobtw ubvmsb cc buffalo edu \( robert weiss \) subject 17 apr 93 god 's promise luke 11 28 organization university buffalo lines 8 news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host ubvmsb cc buffalo edu said , yea rather , blessed hear word god , keep luke 11 28
subject albert sabin rfox charlie usd edu \( rich fox , univ south dakota \) reply rfox charlie usd edu organization university south dakota computer science dept nntp posting host charlie lines 62 article ctron news ctron com , king ctron com \( john e king \) writes rfox charlie usd edu writes bill , taken time explain biblical scholars consider josephus reference early christian insert biblical scholar mean expert , course research , willing let chips fall may excludes literalists , may otherwise defined biblical apologists find want find trustworthy scholarly standards \( others \) 've seen claim josephus insert flying around net often continue ignore perhaps 's true one josephus \? , say , 100 copies , would put insert token , since josephus historian , biblical scholars raising flag \? historical scholars , would think , would better handle ancient secular documents give researchers documents \( page numbers , etc \) \? jack became aware claim years ago decided check , , , bn times \( net \) , references see robin lane fox 's unauthorized version , \( p 284 \) lane fox writes , one passage appears comment jesus' career agreed christian addition albert sabin response \( 391 sunfish usd edu \) jim lippard \( 21 april 93 \) , noted consensus typically indicated subtly elaine 's gnostic gospels \( p 85 \) , wit comment attributed josephus reports emphasis mine scholars sometimes even mention two josephus entries , another subtlety reflecting consensus far deduce , today 's consensus built least three things 1 \) long passage way context , 2 \) origen know long passage , 3 \) short long passages contradictory n't know references wherein arguments led consensus developed \( anyone \? \) biblical scholars defined include theologians historians former , like latter , incorporate historical , social , technological ideological contexts well theology distinction blurred n't elaborate sorry \( turn , historians compelled incorporate theology \) ca n't say number copies , however , bg times \( \) hundred first editions seems exceedingly high counting one hand seems reasonable perhaps mss without long insert \( , anything possible \) destroyed practice certainly foreign religions anyway , mss two entries \( message noted \) talks arabic ms ms date critical \) rich fox , anthro , usouthdakota
margoli watson ibm com \( larry margolis \) subject abortion news software ibm os 2 pm rn \( nr 2 \) v0 vishnepolsky r rogers lines 22 reply margoli watson ibm com \( larry margolis \) disclaimer posting represents poster 's views , necessarily ibm nntp posting host watson ibm com organization village 459 uupcb ozonehole com anthony landreneau ozonehole com \( anthony landreneau \) writes margoli watson ibm com \( larry margolis \) anthony landreneau ozonehole com lm rape passed , nothing ever take away lm lm lm true forcing remain pregnant continues violation lm lm body another 9 months see unbelievably cruel lm lm life violation lm forcing someone harbor life body violation letting mother force child body , order end childs life ultimate violation happen take violation person much seriously violation mindless clump cells smaller thumb mileage may vary larry margolis , margoli \( bitnet \) , margoli watson ibm com \( internet \)
clavazzi nyx cs du edu \( doge \) subject learn waco wackos organization nyx , public access unix u denver math cs dept distribution usa lines 34 actually important things glean mess 1 \) start getting desperate answer question 's mr natural \? , buy darn near anything , means 2 \) 's still plenty made false jesus business enterprising remember 3 \) 've separated green , n't blow automatic weapons mexico put swiss bank account smile lot hand flowers airports con shrug long 4 \) never , never , never start believe ! david koresh started swallowing crap , 'd working puzzles bahamas today instead contributing layer waco 5 \) start shooting cops , 're likely shoot back 'em better shots short p right stupidity self correcting thus lesson doge south st louis dobbs approved media conspirator \( tm \) one step beyond sundays , 3 5 pm 88 1 fm st louis community radio 'll pay know really think ! j r bob dobbs
caldwell facman ohsu edu \( larry caldwell \) subject merlin , mithras magick organization oregon health sciences university lines 28 nntp posting host facman response whitten saic com \( david whitten \) wrote evidently feast bread wine associated mithras often wondered intentionally introduced ritual expand appeal religion , appropriated later worshipers responded could argue wanted , think reasonable argument would point fact feast similar pesach \( passover \) meal seder , jewish ritual course feast seder , accounts clear point difference connection bread wine body blood god old association osiris mithras line , really related judaism case , n't really intend argue point saw possible association pointed , n't notion really happened larry caldwell caldwell ohsu edu compuserve , 2273 oregon health sciences university \( 503 \) 494 2232
kmr4 po cwru edu \( keith ryan \) subject burden proof organization case western reserve university lines 41 nntp posting host b64635 student cwru edu article 1993apr21 888 batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes actually , positive arguments \( positive may best description due possible misunderstanding , 's term used \) positive arguments assertions affirmative \( e god exists \) negative \( e god exist \) carry equal burden proof asserting certain idea true default condition , absence preponderance evidence either way , proposition assertion undecidable person takes undecidable position says simply proposition true , one holds burden proof called weak atheist position virtually stands firm foundation logical argument , 's proponents simply disbelieve existence god \( \) therefore hold burden proof n't assert anything , n't prove anything 's weak atheism draws strength strength also heel without assertions axioms , one foundation upon build philosophy , 's virtually worthless imo , course , assert thousand year old invisible pink unicorns residing walls , need support evidence \? think lack evidence shall suffice happen like listening satanic messages found playing beethoven 's 45th backwards fbi officials said cult leader david koresh may forced followers remain flames closed koresh 's armed guard may injected many 24 children poison quiet god saw everything made , , behold , good genesis 1 31
halat pooh bears \( jim halat \) subject fact theory reply halat pooh bears \( jim halat \) lines 74 article usenet ucs indiana edu , bio indiana edu \( andy peters \) writes stuff deleted andy think agree , given clarification using terms fact theory 'll add think perhaps feel strongly separating , though usage quite valid note fact evolution still theory words , could , theoretically , still falsified rejected since 's predictive , consistently supported evidence , seems pointless explicitly try falsify anymore 'll add rejection way reduce current usefulness long accurately predicts describes things observe pain ass , reason n't say theory evolution rather fact evolution still theory i'm asking whole thread got started bothered post referred fact evolution , basically leaving phrase still theory without clarification , like one gave , saying fact evolution different meaning description atomic theory , alternative theories gravity , deleted useful models religious requirements faith , unless course want demand factual physical entity described exactly way theory formulated talks fail make important distinction facts existence gravity atoms evolution one category theories proposed explain mechanisms existence things predictive considered fact mechanisms , hand , still worth discussing i'm sure agree , may feel stronger separating terms trying say theories proposed explain mechanisms mechanisms realities existence mechanisms , things , predictive considered fact \( would say \) n't really little planetary particle systems called atoms say , original point , would leap faith say , observe mechanisms need believe actually atoms decided think 's enough discuss mechanisms rate , i'm sure clearer , thought worth shot bottom line , though , think agree two fundamental ideas 1 evolution theory supported observational evidence \( way \) fact evolution theory supported observational evidence \( way \) 2 creation opinion theist wants call theory wo n't supporting evidence neither predicts supports observations made mechanisms talk , really n't much say agree \? jim halat halat bear com bear stearns whatever n't kill serve annoy nyc speak
halat pooh bears \( jim halat \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality reply halat pooh bears \( jim halat \) lines 45 article horus ap mchp sni de , frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes article 930421 rusnews w165w mantis co uk mathew mathew mantis co uk writes frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes article 930420 rusnews w165w mantis co uk mathew mathew mantis co uk writes complete nonsense relativism means saying standard morality mean saying standards morality equally good presumably means moral systems better others \? \? manage without objective frame reference \? either frank o'dwyer mathew said stiff deleted goes faster , bullet snail \? come answer einstein proved n't objective frame reference \? stiff deleted speed quantifiable measure resulting set methods result value measured matter reference bullet zero velocity sitting table train moving 60mph moving speed \( \) someone train \( b \) 60mph someone stationary next train reference frame makes speed relative 's interesting every person train see stationary bullet every person , bullet moving 60mph know train people , every time filled , see moral problem exactly way jim halat halat bear com bear stearns whatever n't kill serve annoy nyc speak
david terminus ericsson se \( david bold \) subject news bad news reply david terminus ericsson se distribution world organization camtec electronics \( ericsson \) , leicester , england lines 20 nntp posting host i'm trouble receiving news moment due overloaded news server think post reasonably quickly , though i'm couple threads moment may pending replies anyone wants reply something 've posted suggest sending e mail copy point reply news one way shut ! ! cheers , david religion oh , sea \? , fishes cried , swam
kilroy gboro rowan edu \( dr nancy 's sweetie \) subject food thought tyre summary another inerrantist rewrites bible keywords scripture , implication , prophesy , ! ' organization rowan college new jersey disclaimer brandy hopes doghouse rebuilt lines 93 lot discussion tyre sum , ezekiel prophesied place would never rebuilt lot people living , would appear ezekiel literally correct n't bother , understand language ezekiel used differently called biblical literalists example , sometimes happens someone says grandson baby ! turns around sees says oh ! n't thing ! \? person literally claiming lined babies world according discovered grandchildren tied first rather , trying express emotions using words object oriented example one common many people , nobody intent statements bible , however , often mercy people assume everything within must exactly literally true people , existence tyre problem , turning latest person trying defend ezekiel , read john e king prophesy clearly implies people would still living area , implies nothing kind nothing prophecy ezekiel , told interpret literally , would never say oh , means houses businesses plants stuff like would read make bare rock never rebuilt , 'd conclude tyre would bare rock way get buildings medium large know latter stuff words , answer means ezekiel misled everybody read prophecy time written way , given literal reading , could read passage conclude medium size city seem feel never rebuilt means rebuilt maybe , hardly mr king also writes far 've seen stated ranging 15 , 000 22 , 000 let 's assume latter one correct modern standards talking one horse town well , 's bit less population annapolis , i'm know , naval , state capital , george washington resigned commission \? annapolis may new york , 's least two horse town supposing 22 , 000 people small town 's still 22 , 000 people ezekiel predicted 've said nothing problem chapter 26 , ezekiel predicts nebuchadnezzar destroy tyre valuables however , nebuchadnezzar destroy tyre , chapter 29 ezekiel even quotes god saying army got reward campaign led tyre let 's ignore alexander moment , pay attention chapter 26 ezekiel says n would destroy tyre , n destroy tyre ezekiel says n would plunder valuables , n plunder valuables regardless think tyre , fact n died place destroyed ezekiel said n going , n post , course , pointless amazing ability rewrite bible needed fit whatever want say example , expect mr king respond comments ezekiel 26 pulling clear implications hat ezekiel said n would demolish towers , clearly implied walls would still standing people would know towers used ezekiel said n would demolish fine houses throw stones , rubble sea , clearly implied n would never set foot island ezekiel wrote n would build ramp walls , clearly implies n would spend 13 years around mainland never get close walls see \? clear implications totally contrary text , reconcile anything want darren f provine kilroy gboro rowan edu know i'm enabler \? demand ! cliff
pepke dirac scri fsu edu \( eric pepke \) subject societal basis morality organization florida state university , n't speak lines 13 article merlyn digibd merlyn digibd digibd com \( merlyn leroy \) writes prayer school legal illegal telling children pray , pray many people confuse ca n't tell kids ought pray kids n't allowed pray , possibly kids without told perhaps 's think governmental bodies business suppressing beliefs , else 're sort satanic humanist conspiracy 's old 're us 're us bit
subject christians law \? clarification pe nunnally acs harding edu \( john nunnally \) distribution world organization harding university , , ar nntp posting host acs harding edu x news reader vms news 1 reply pharvey quack kfu com 's message 18 apr 1993 18 31 38 87 lines 87 going hear christian answer question \? paraphrase whose authority christians proclaim law prophets \( 7 major 12 minor \) accountable ten commandments jesus clearly spoke opinion matthew 5 14 19 \? source pseudo doctrine \? pseudo teacher \? great deceiver \? ok , 's least one christian 's answer jesus jew , christian context matthew 5 14 19 makes sense matt 5 17 think jesus came abolish law prophets come abolish , fulfill jesus lived jewish law however , promises prophets came fulfill prophecies fully obey god 's purposes verse 18 says truly say , heaven earth pass away , smallest letter stroke shall pass away law , accomplished key verse imho last phrase jesus , fulfillment law , accomplished law supposed accomplish verse 19 whoever annuls one least commandments , teaches others , shall called least kingdom heaven whoever keeps teaches , shall called great kingdom heaven taken context jesus teaching jewish people living lives law , makes sense general , appears jesus responding criticism must received away law jesus' intent come earth live law lived fulfill promises made god people way back eve gen 3 15 serpent bruise heel , bruise head jesus appeared away law honor traditions men equal law god regularly locked horns religious leaders day would conform rules , god 's law matthew passage jesus defending dedication law defending almost entire sermon mount \( matt 5 7 \) dedicated helping jewish people understand true intent law , sweeping away clutter introduced traditions galatians 3 23 26 , paul describes relationship jesus law way 23 faith came , kept custody law , shut faith later revealed 24 therefore law become tutor lead us christ , may justified faith 25 faith come , longer tutor 26 sons god faith christ jesus believe says christ revealed , law served 's purpose , e tutor lead us christ , , longer tutor law fulfilled christ said would god , author old law , christ man , jesus , personality therefore , old law new testament \( last testament jesus \) based moral principles makes sense many principles old law expressed christianity hand , law fulfilled 's purpose christians relate god christ , law , also makes sense new practices new established represent mysteries new relationship e baptism representing christ 's death , burial , resurrection \( rom 6 3 8 \) , lord 's supper memorial sacrifice \( cor 11 26 \) , sunday day worship resurrection \( matt 28 , acts 20 7 \) ok , 's one christian 's explanation n't claim issues completely settled even mind welcome christians offer alternatives please excuse long posting thanks interest read far john nunnally nunnally acs harding edu
subject alt sex stories literary critical nunnally acs harding edu \( john nunnally \) distribution world organization harding university , , ar nntp posting host acs harding edu x news reader vms news 1 reply sandvik newton apple com 's message sun , 18 apr 1993 00 06 17 gmtlines 28 lines 28 sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com writes article h7v agate berkeley edu , dzkriz ocf berkeley edu \( dennis kriz \) wrote i'm going try something , perhaps many would thought even possible want begin process initiating literary critical study pornography posted alt sex stories , identify major themes motifs present stories posted opening possibility objective moral evaluation material present dennis , i'm astounded n't know interested even study filth alt sex stories provide cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net finally , , whatever true , whatever honorable , whatever right , whatever pure , whatever lovely , whatever good , excellence anything worthy praise , let mind dwell things phil 4 8 cheers , john nunnally acs harding edu
royc rbdc wsnc org \( roy crabtree \) subject kill sword , must killed sword organization red barn data center lines 191 article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) writes article rbdc wsnc org , royc rbdc wsnc org \( roy crabtree \) wrote article utarlg uta edu b645zaw utarlg uta edu \( stephen \) writes article sandvik sandvik kent apple com , sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) writes happy 70 people , including innocent kids , died today \? 's amazing everyone automatically blames one side one thing sure koresh chance defend statements \( lacking fact court sponsored verification \) made agents participated situation killed frankly speaking n't care started whole show feel sad children trapped , die case n't reason whatsoever mr koresh could done would release 19 children could \? first three died , guns came batf fbi \? imagine would trouble giving children someone shot two \? nb takes two sets guns situation like yes , put blame koresh similar fanatical religious leaders think cause keeping fanatical tolerate another 's way life religious based emotional , internal , otherwise lacking commonly defined scientific basis , including legal ones , old saw innocent guilty innocent presumed guilty fanatic \? note dead usually fair bit idea side also lethal weapons , used fatally dead children best koresh asshole government criminally negligent ling case worst , koresh followers innocent brainwashed guilty illegal arms possession \( yet unproven \) along 25 children cannot speak members \( surviving , alive , burned death \) batf fbi , public eye outside bounds legal authorities read charter constitution specifies courts convict , enforcement arm , evidence involved disseminated way harm injure party involved prior action called slander libel \( even factually true disseminated intent harm purpose covering butts bottom line said wanted kids get alive , batf , ms reno , prez , everybody else sick group upright animals used freedom loving peaceful country called america look name , might surprise turned point finger blame guy let kids die note well lived 51 days died attacked outside force spock 's world , diane duane heart another us responsible iam question whether , guess get make mind children war zone i'm ashamed statement created war zone \? ashamed bypassing 's damned \( literally \) comment made folks former yugoslavia justify ethnic cleansing gee , guns , surrender justify means eliminate fact children died cause part whose cause die \? one lived , , known purposes \( proven court , folks ! \) , righteous government safeguarding freedom children dead say know fbi leaders show moral sickness trying convict press ahead schedule look shoulder , becuase anything actually sets onto real fact happened know defending people burned death cannot speak may , 22 5 years , find concept court system gone due due profit batf come collect fair share tax value house rented income going , folks read bankruptcy 1995 accurate figures greedy businessman taken profit corruption look money went , folks got 10 medicare paid doctor 00 50 worth medicine businessmen land cult \? note well , religious , large tract land hmmm use brains , folks happened germany , happen 4 3 trillion \( admitted \) counting kent royc sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
royc rbdc wsnc org \( roy crabtree \) subject message mr president know happened \? organization red barn data center lines 83 article netcom com bskendig netcom com \( brian kendig \) writes visser convex com \( lance visser \) writes cut water , fire trucks present refused bring fire equipment fear firemen would shot fbi atf go blasting holes firing gas munitions used tank knock hole wall , released non toxic , non flammable tear gas building take second look non toxic , non flammable mace \( sold public \) supposedly tell get mace directly linings lungs \( direct snort face \) certain quantities , reacts similarly mustard gas inhalation know father grandfather exposed poison gas wwi wwii dad went side effects weapon , including non toxic aerosols label actually means usually , wont kill may give permanent css 's better blowing hole head aerosols flammable enough oxygen hit right non flammable substances known boom hit right combo let 's take one trash fire makes black smoke already burned right \? ca n't go boom , right \? wrong suck smoke \( made paper , burned 35 fuel \) air conditioning return , mix 5 1 air , light match 200 feet conduit , filled smoke mixture , oh , say 200 pounds tnt fire codes say open ceiling tiles buildings 3 5 stories building blown smoke take little mix gasoline kerosene fumes electricity , remeber \? bit heating waco plains \? boil water drink since water cut \? liberally mix allow settle 1 4 hours fumes vent bus underground , davidians move children upstairs \( one , armor plated , remember \? \) breath , kids get sick die tear gas along comes tracer , spark , everyone burns death try thinking opening mouth may happened way say brian kendig je ne suis fait comme aucun bskendig netcom com de ceux que j'ai vus j'ose croire n'etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent meaning life si je ne vaux pas mieux , au moins je suis autre ends rousseau
royc rbdc wsnc org \( roy crabtree \) subject message mr president know happened \? organization red barn data center lines 49 article dscomsa desy de hallam zeus02 desy de writes hang missed point entirely , protesting lack water deprived koresh constitutional right prove divinity walking tell , folks , man run reason attack man 's beliefs \( legal terminology , argument ad hominem attack man , yet proven illegal \) fbi atf go blasting holes firing gas munitions used tank knock hole wall , released non toxic , non flammable tear gas building tell gas burn dispite fact remember fire movie couple years ago \? backdraft \? scene factory propane gas coming pipes gasoline floor , 750 degree flame front overhead \? note flash \? fires ignite burn gases \( like tear gas \) mix distribute flash fire analyst tell \( nb neither cannot tell fbi spokesman reno maybe shut get analysis first building full flash gas flame yes , flash one room , pumped full , phill hallam baker royc
royc rbdc wsnc org \( roy crabtree \) subject message mr president know happened \? organization red barn data center lines 50 article morrow stanford edu salem pangea stanford edu \( bruce salem \) writes think consensus become fbi atf , merely walked ambush feb 28 , koresh got prophesy today , stated intentions , played right situation koresh set conditions classic cult confrontation stated publically outcome would become kids shot \? government upped conclusion today seem fires set within compound members group caused cs gas way delivered let subsequent investigation shed light suppose make comment \? government used started fire dividians still decision stay leave never intended jews nazis ww ii say die leave building burns , almost everyone dies probably n't bother much , bothers many people dont believe particularly koresh message humans , hope yes , finger pointing begun four atf agents 90 branch davidians dead crazy tactics part atf fbi yeah , blew rational situation criminal game n't learned much jonestown , move house , sla shootout perhaps kill first , blame dead ones , destroy evidence royc
royc rbdc wsnc org \( roy crabtree \) subject message mr president know happened \? organization red barn data center lines 26 article apollo hp com nelson p apollo hp com \( peter nelson \) writes would alive today released back word released loaded convicted , children feds use type loaded logic , cannot win 1 \) accuse 2 \) shoot couple kids 3 \) blame shots 4 \) 51 days 5 \) tell come die 6 \) gas 7 \) burn death 8 \) blame \( prior trial \) debating weeks ago peter
royc rbdc wsnc org \( roy crabtree \) subject message mr president know happened \? organization red barn data center lines 11 article keng tunfaire keng den mmc com \( ken garrido \) writes lotsa stuff taken bottom line due process served peaceful attempt serve warrant occurred think royc
royc rbdc wsnc org \( roy crabtree \) subject message mr president know happened \? organization red barn data center lines 54 article noose ecn purdue edu tbrent bank ecn purdue edu \( timothy j brent \) writes give break ! deal blaze like get shot time nearly witness la firemen among real heroes time wonder actually come , found fire tv shot \? prove ! people breaking law agree n't best tactics , law replaces justice system dying dead note small revolution 216 years ago point probably backed , pulled perimeter way back , let sit media attention decided come alternative see would send couple special forces guys capture assassinate koresh remember , fruit perhaps wait send agents christian sit pray outside line \? try affinity rather \? loops putting lives lines voluntarily chuckle would someone points gun point die live living means building keep badge carrying nuts kids , suspect might well sides wrong law abiding citizens put danger necessary dealing nut \? look man jumped bradley grab flaming women running back building yeah , would say trying save people n't think would risk life much save someone stupid obviously n't even want saved try go see movie 's choice grow tim royc
rocker acm rpi edu \( rocker \) subject abortion private health coverage letters regarding nntp posting host hermes acm rpi edu reply rocker hermes acm rpi edu followup lines 13 agate berkeley edu dzkriz ocf berkeley edu \( dennis kriz \) writes one paying private health insurance plan want abortion coverage reason person pay \( one compelled pay coverage one n't want kind coverage \) appear ignorant underlying concept health insurance dzkriz ocf berkeley edu rocker
organization city university new york a54si cunyvm bitnet subject merlin , mithras magick distribution world joshua bailey cpac washington edu pegasus fp1 dialin 1 uoregon edu joshua bailey cpac washington edu lines 38 exciting thread \( finally ! \) friend , started avatar lord mentioned first vedas later seems risen chief prominence worshipped persians associated sun sun , lord contract honor obedience , therefore naturally worshipped soldiers ordered sun bull heaven agreed obligation blood bull spilled grew earth life sun sat eat worship lord ended persia ascension zoroastrians hundreds years later thrown official roman \( tm \) semi tricky reason , forget references ended abruptly stricken , apparently worship sort vehicle advancement bureaucracy , like membership communist party soviet bloc sociology religion ancient times fascinating ! oh , b day 25 dec ahem sure mystery cult really lasted booted roman imperial god roster contained mostly soldiers , 7 levels initiation worshipped underground bull horns temples scaring away evil spirits , i'm sure significance n't know ritual meal nature christian masses eating deities goes way back old kingdom egypt someone mentioned sacrifice bulls \? forget likely , religious source , might shower bull 's blood enjoyed worshippers cybele day blood \? cybele worship extended throughout even france charles hope a54si cunyvm a54si cunyvm cuny edu government reporters media
iccgcc decnet ab com \( n't know discovered water , n't fish marshall \) subject waco conflagration precedents \? lines 15 burning alive seems rough way go , given waco bunch choices reminded russian old believers , thinking antichrist coming , grew peter great started russia russian church years later locked churches burned alive thousands cases apocalypse obsessed christians resorting self \? history precedents \? andrew
ekr squick eitech com \( eric rescorla \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization lines 88 nntp posting host squick eitech com article horus ap mchp sni de frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes article squick eitech com ekr squick eitech com \( eric rescorla \) writes article horus ap mchp sni de frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes article kyle eitech com ekr kyle eitech com \( eric rescorla \) writes almost people agree sun exists \( usual , uncritical sense \) , almost people agree deal bad , 's reasonable conclusion sun really exist , deal really bad disagree completely rather recently , people believe evolution possibility atom bomb popular opinion notoriously wrong matters fact true , nevertheless basis matters fact overwhelming popular opinion , overwhelming popular opinion fact \( sun shines \) , physics would personal matter , assumed different us would theoretical framework encompass predict simply complete nonsense basis , class opinion , majority informed popular opinion value informed would really hate base knowledge , instance , qm overwhelming popular opinion basis , eric , people world saying see i'm talking facts observations people agreement observations prerequisite theory personal yes , 's true , clear exactly observation 's pretty low level stuff 'the sun already lot higher level agree 'i perceive perhaps take experience good evil every bit raw fact experience pain , vision might seem like good first pass guess , turns pretty cruddy way look things , seem rather different opinions \( experiences \) good evil , seem able agree meter says 're comparing apples apples look meter , 'll agree 're situation , 's 'll agree fundamental values , people say nobody agrees values extent agree trivial observations seem unaware extent agreement either huh \? mean 'all situation \? ' let 's take dennis kriz examples 're pretty different situations , think agree whether 's day night n't think agree whether abortion morally acceptable yet certainly difference situations respect looks like weasel words , frank n't see 's evidence point , i'm really interested much popular opinion i'm prepared trust extent popular opinion direct matters physical observation large accord however , everyone else said dial read 1 5 looked like 3 , would hope would believe e believing people matters seems reasonable probability predicting would believe observed , possibility exists since know observation others disagree good , believe discount popular opinion 'good' beginning predictor opinion would say fact seems almost impossible get people agree good really large number situations probably best evidence objective morality bogus , actually firstly , everyone else said dial 1 5 saw 3 , 'd check lens prescription 's , guess secondly , observation people disagree shows nothing people may looking different things , virtue different situations look elephant , 'll see elephant n't imply see elephant look stuff pretty confusing , frank decide situation \? mind explaining \? thirdly , question assumption people disagree achieve fundamental secondary goals , therefore fundamental goals \( seems disagreement refer \) huh \? n't think think people disagree fundamental goals ekr eric rescorla ekr eitech com would buy used code man \?
tph susie sbc com \( timothy p henrion \) subject biblical backing koresh 's 3 02 tape \( cites enclosed \) organization usr lib news organization lines 32 nntp posting host susie sbc com article 1993apr21 1 woods ulowell edu cotera woods ulowell edu writes article 1r17j9 5ie sbctri sbc com , netd susie sbc com \( \) writes article 20apr199301460499 utarlg uta edu b645zaw utarlg uta edu \( stephen \) writes think david koresh n't solid structure , sound biblical backing hour long tape broadcast , n't think anyone really cares solid structure sermon 's deaths 's responsible concern people assume evidence responsible deaths \? common sense fire caused either koresh followers fbi atf cia kgb maybe harper valley pta since throwing around evidence arguement , 'll throw back prove government agency \? \( please n't resort covered proves wild theories government agencies intentionally started fire key words proof evidence \) proves thou shalt kill stuff 'd like point bible says commit murder translation self defense never considered murder please explain koresh defending children burned tim henrion southwestern bell technology resources sbctri sbc com
popec brewich hou tx us \( pope charles \) subject merlin , mithras magick organization witch bbs , 1 713 272 7350 , brewich hou tx us lines 42 caldwell facman ohsu edu \( larry caldwell \) writes us oracle com \( kevin osinski \) writes recall reading michael \( \? \) rutherford 's novel scene son roman living britain takes part secret ceremony involving bull stands naked pit covered sort scaffolding assistants coax bull stand scaffolding fatally stab bull , worshipper pit blood supposedly sort rite passage members bull cult wonder related mithras cult \? n't know rutherford got information chapter book historical fiction , general events take place largely based historical accounts rite like described joseph campbell 's occidental mythology also described levels initiation , think 6 \? n't know campbell got info , remember thinking little also wonder connection ancient bull cults current practice popular mediterranean cultures quite bit n't read campbell , give try larry caldwell caldwell ohsu edu compuserve , 2273 oregon health sciences university \( 503 \) 494 2232 yes cannot remeber works read , many years ago ritual called believe , \( spelling may \) pope charles popec brewich hou tx us \( pope charles \) origin witch bbs houston , tx 1 713 272 7350
popec brewich hou tx us \( pope charles \) subject freemasonry southern baptist convention organization witch bbs , 1 713 272 7350 , brewich hou tx us lines 72 lowell locus com \( lowell morrison \) writes article usenet ins cwru edu ch981 cleveland freenet edu \( tony southern baptist convention convening june consider charges freemasonry incompatible christianity , thought following quotes mr james holly , anti masonic flag carrier , would amuse following passages exact quotes southern baptist convention freemasonry james l holly , , president mission ministry men , inc , 550 n 10th st , beaumont , tx much drivel deleted jesus christ never commanded toleration motive disciples , toleration antithesis christian message page 30 central dynamic freemason drive world unity fraternity , liberty equality toleration seen writings 'great' writers freemasonry page 31 drivel deleted hope good laugh ! know ! g , tony laugh \? tony , religeous bigot scares shit , one bothers listen causes grave doubts future anything shades branch davidians , jim jones , charlie manson uncle wolf member highland lodge 748 f \( grand lodge california \) southern one beliefs beyond teachings either worry masons harrassed almost every major xian church centuries still stand wil withstand miserable southern , sure may even pick little support people start listen realize obvious lies claims satanism masons sound pretty good comparison one thing known sizable proportion southern masons ! masons already fired back magazines witch hunt since already divisive element war moderates liberals , may start mason brothers hasten downfall southern realize church ca n't stand run handful clowns looking holy civil wars purity tests drop 'em leadership positions taken far concerned , louder , , outrageous anti masonic crusade old goats mount , better pop get center row seat circus begin , oh look ! come clowns ! pope charles slack ! popec brewich hou tx us \( pope charles \) origin witch bbs houston , tx 1 713 272 7350
bcash crchh410 nosubdomain nodomain \( brian cash \) subject atoms real \? \( 2000 years blah blah blah \) nntp posting host crchh410 organization bnr , inc lines 15 petri mathew , discusion reality atoms interesting , would seem question anything real , since observation 100 reliable , say anything real n't think intention original question , since define word real nothing meet criteria thought brian ps shadows real objects , phenomenon interesting question would atoms objects \( classical \) phenomenon \( neo quantum \) \?
cutter gloster via mind org \( cutter \) subject message mr president know happened \? distribution world organization gordian knot , gloster , ga lines 26 bskendig netcom com \( brian kendig \) writes b645zaw utarlg uta edu \( stephen tice \) writes one way another much patience bad could n't wait prospect god 's message much take \? believe david koresh really jesus christ \? know , everybody guy hung cross claimed also son god took almost two thousand years forget preached love thy neighbor anybody else wonder two guys setting fires ' cutter gloster via mind org \( chris \) jobs easy person n't holt 's law
markp elvis wri com \( mark pundurs \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality nntp posting host elvis wri com organization wolfram research , inc lines 22 30136 ursa bear com halat pooh bears \( jim halat \) writes article horus ap mchp sni de , frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes firstly , science basis values , way round better explain objective atoms , get subjective values , go atoms objective n't even real scientists call atom nothing mathematical model describes certain physical , observable properties surroundings subjective , 's ! sorry , jim , idea theory explaining myriad distinctly different observations merely model sensible people accept phobia objective reality notwithstanding mark pundurs resemblance opinions wolfram research , inc purely coincidental
markp elvis wri com \( mark pundurs \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality nntp posting host elvis wri com organization wolfram research , inc lines 27 rusnews w165w mantis co uk mathew mantis co uk \( mathew \) writes 's objective physics einstein bohr told us speaking one knows relativity quantum mechanics , say bullshit 's objective reality lsd sufficient prove speaking one taken lsd , say bullshit one wonders people ask questions understand term objective , anything consider useful fiction abstract ideal strive towards like ideal gas light string , n't actually exist talk things like , far wrong could striving toward ideal way useful , ideal objective existence \? mark pundurs resemblance opinions wolfram research , inc purely coincidental
rh com \( richard harter \) subject rawlins debunks creationism reply rh uucp \( richard harter \) organization software maintenance development systems , inc lines 79 article 1993apr15 rambo atlanta dg com wpr atlanta dg com \( bill rawlins \) writes talking origins , merely science science cannot explain origins person exclude anything science issue origins say higher truth science false premise way , enjoy science truly wonder observing god 's creation macroevolution mixture 15 percent science 85 percent religion guaranteed within three percent error \) let us explore interesting paragraph point point , sentence sentence 1 \) talking origins , merely science origins \? speaking origins life , human species , universe , physical law , biological diversity \? 2 \) science cannot explain origins false statement unless carefully qualified depends origins talking 3 \) person exclude anything science issue origins say higher truth science , false statement begin , notion higher truth distinctly dubious many people believe ways ascertain truth science even believe ways reliable certain many believe truths cannot expressed using language science let truths neither higher lower simply true point , restricting one 's discussion origins science reject sources knowledge simply restricts scope discussion 4 \) false premise intended asserting previous sentence false \( 4 \) actually true however context identifies another false least theologically unsound statement 5 \) way , enjoy science evidence mr rawlins lacks sufficient understanding science enjoy science meaningful sense one might well say one enjoys literature written language one cannot read however one cannot mark sentence false follow analogy , perhaps likes pretty shapes letters 6 \) truly wonder observing god 's creation let us quibble count one true 7 \) macroevolution mixture 15 percent science 85 percent religion guaranteed within three percent error \) still another false statement however one make come true following contextual modification macroevolution , misunderstood , mixture 15 percent rawlins erroneously thinks science , 85 percent rawlins erroneously thinks religion distinctly noticeable mr rawlins fails miserably touch truth except reports personally feels justice assuming misinforming us personal reactions one account hypothesis personal concept truth richard harter inc net address rh com phone 508 369 us mail inc , po box 555 , concord fax 508 369 fields hell grass grows high graves dreams allowed die
i3150101 dbstu1 rz tu bs de \( benedikt rosenau \) subject albert sabin organization technical university braunschweig , germany lines 20 article 1993apr15 225657 17804 rambo atlanta dg com wpr atlanta dg com \( bill rawlins \) writes \( deletion \) since referred messiah , assume referring new testament please detail complaints e mail n't want post first century greek well known well understood considered josephus , jewish historian , also wrote jesus \? addition , four gospel accounts much harmony since drivel also crossposted alt atheism , reading alt atheism faq \? josephus quote fake even christian historians , four gospels contradict important points n't going offer scientific theory creationism \? benedikt
halat pooh bears \( jim halat \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality reply halat pooh bears \( jim halat \) lines 14 article 1qie61 fkt horus ap mchp sni de , frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes objective morality morality built objective values organized religion religion built organized values ford tempo tempo built ford values rational response response built rational values unconditional surrender surrender built unconditional values uncle ! bye jim halat
halat pooh bears \( jim halat \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality reply halat pooh bears \( jim halat \) lines 43 article 1993apr15 wam umd edu , wam umd edu \( jay stein objectively subjective \) writes horus ap mchp sni de frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) discussion christianity objective morals question effective difference objective values exist , disagreement values subjective \? n't see difference saying absolute truth exists , people think lie truth relative \? think examples , first statement fundamental disagreement least two people second statement agreed upon put another way , someone says objective values exist agree values subjective jim halat
halat pooh bears \( jim halat \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality reply halat pooh bears \( jim halat \) lines 17 article na4 horus ap mchp sni de , frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes really \? n't know objective value \? offered people u , collectively , 1 land america , would sound like good deal \? happens subjective example people us would happen agree continue move price point people would accept probably would accept high enough number endpoints subjective scale given homes objective viewpoints jim halat
halat pooh bears \( jim halat \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality reply halat pooh bears \( jim halat \) lines 34 article horus ap mchp sni de , frank d012s658 uucp \( frank o'dwyer \) writes firstly , science basis values , way round better explain objective atoms , get subjective values , go atoms objective n't even real scientists call atom nothing mathematical model describes certain physical , observable properties surroundings subjective objective , though , approach scientist takes discussing model observations objective science objective approach subjectively selected scientist objective case means specified , unchanging set rules colleagues use discuss science contrast objective morality may objective approach subjectively discuss beliefs morality exists objective morality also , science deals discuss observations physical world around us method discussion objective \( science discussion \) science makes claims know even sometimes observe simply gives us way discuss surroundings meaningful , consistent way think bohr said \( paraphrase \) science say physical world jim halat
mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com \( mark wilson \) subject message mr president know happened \? organization ncr engineering manufacturing atlanta atlanta , ga lines 58 noose ecn purdue edu tbrent bank ecn purdue edu \( timothy j brent \) writes probably , n't pack heavy weaponry intent use please cite evidence intending use n't really think allowed keep stuff \? \? , tell live sure steer well clear check sig public also rights , placed individual society rights individuals rights go ahead , call commie , ok , commie 'd singing different tune exercised right rape daughter think right rape anyone \? wonder n't care others broke law , please indicate law feel koresh broke , convicted said crime threat society , feel owning guns makes threat society ou going start going knives baseball bats well feel someone spouts unpopular ideas definition threat society job simple simple think job assualt civilians support first , second , fourth , fifth , sixth , eighth amendment rights , lest taken away fbi davidians think 'll support \( except 2 \) words n't support mob rule n't prettier merely mob calls government ai n't charity using someone else 's money wilson 's theory relativity go back far enough , 're related mark wilson atlantaga ncr com
alizard tweekco uucp \( lizard \) subject 14 apr 93 god 's promise 1 john 1 7 organization com systems bbs , , ca \( 510 \) 631 lines 20 starowl rahul net \( michael adams \) writes anyone netland process devising new religion , use lamb bull , already reserved please choose another animal , preferably one endangered species list washed blood barney dinosaur \? \) judging postings 've read usenet non usenet bbs conferences , barney definitely endangered species especially runs dark alley lizard lizard internet addresses alizard tweekco boo pacbell com \( preferred \) pacbell com ! boo ! tweekco ! alizard \( bang path \) alizard com \( backup \) pgp2 2 public key available request
alizard tweekco uucp \( lizard \) subject oto , ancient order oriental templars organization com systems bbs , , ca \( 510 \) 631 lines 18 thyagi cup portal com \( thyagi morgoth nagasiva \) writes organization known present time ancient order oriental templars ordo templi orientis otherwise hermetic brotherhood light organization official e mail address days \? \( address sf bay area lodges , e g would \) 93 lizard lizard internet addresses alizard tweekco boo pacbell com \( preferred \) pacbell com ! boo ! tweekco ! alizard \( bang path \) alizard com \( backup \) pgp2 2 public key available request
weinss rs6101 ecs rpi edu \( stephen andrew weinstein \) subject new religion forming sign summary read worthwhile laughs serious questions real religion keywords , religion , nntp posting host rs6101 ecs rpi edu organization rensselaer polytechnic institute , troy ny lines 102 let begin saying think world 's first religion use net major recruitment medium therefore , even religion take , founding members important historically method soliciting membership eventually become common basis religion apply various aspects current conventional morality characters genesis exodus assume bible 's accounts facts historical events correct example , story adam eve adam eve garden eden naked ignorant unlimited supply food provided , clothing , jobs , knowledge god says eat fruit tree knowledge anyway , try hide god finds forces garden \( several different stories naked might angered god \) traditional philosophy 1 reason need knowledge job eat someone else provide food , stupid unemployed 's ok married women usually n't work recent decades 2 authority figures , god , whoever behind vietnam war , hitler , always right blindly followed without question ordinary people , ca n't make decisions interpretation events based traditional philosophy supposed eat fruit done whatever god told like small children , needs provided obligated whatever father said forced leave garden work order obtain food punishment lessons traditional interpretation 1 ignorance good knowledge bad , tempting 2 food provided nothing \( read welfare \) ideal get ting job feeding earn punishment 3 public nudity good covering bad 4 authority figures intrinsically right normal people dumb whatever told without question think 5 people subordinate positions especially obligated refrain learning example , illegal slaves learn read 1990 's philosophy 1 people seek education employment outside home , unless named hillary clinton murphy brown 2 people use common sense kill people \( binding , wars , holocaust , etc \) told interpretation events based current philosophy supposed eat fruit god gave wanted seek knowledge rather handed silver platter gained knowledge \( seeking \) showed ability make mature decisions selves , longer needed treated like little children rewarded allowed real world lessons new interpretation 1 ignorance bad knowledge good , must sought 2 food provided nothing \( read welfare \) best temporary measure getting job feeding earn ideal 3 public nudity bad covering good 4 authority figures often wrong normal people intelligent consider whether instructions really good idea alter abolish bad governments think 5 people subordinate decisions often discouraged knowledge seek anyway , harder example , poor children without good schools work especially hard order make better life children \( \) named new philosophy church eve 's decision eat apple man sic kind 's first good decision , instead first bad one , traditionally believed therefore clearly protagonist god first appears evil , telling people seek knowledge deeper analysis also protagonist god rewarded decision defy , provided tree first place , intention desire clearly knowledge obtained , delay actively sought end serious discussion begin humor save post disk \( file server \) someday considered important writing since 10 commandments want original copy stay tuned rfd soc religion get tax deduction money donate organization \? return serious discussion posting follow ups stephen weinstein weinss rpi edu
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject clarification organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 14 sorry , san jose based rosicrucian order called r c , n't remember time stand r c ordo rosae crucis , words latin order rose cross sigh , seems loosing long term memory otherwise headquarters san jose pretty decent metaphysical bookstore , interested books son loves run around egyptian museum cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
subject catholic lit nunnally acs harding edu \( john nunnally \) distribution world organization harding university , , ar nntp posting host acs harding edu x news reader vms news 1 reply dlphknob camelot bradley edu 's message 16 apr 93 18 57 20 gmtlines 45 lines 45 dlphknob camelot dlphknob camelot bradley edu writes 1993apr14 476 mtechca maintech com foster mtechca maintech com writes surprised saddened would expect kind behavior evangelical born gospel thumping face 're true christian protestants , always thought catholics behaved better please stoop level e b g f w c protestants , think best way witness strident , intrusive , loud , insulting self righteous \( pleading mode \) please ! i'm begging ! quit confusing religious groups , stop making generalizations ! i'm protestant ! i'm evangelical ! n't believe way way ! i'm creation scientist ! n't think homosexuals hung ! want discuss bible thumpers , would better singling \( making generalizations \) fundamentalists compared actions methodists southern baptists , would think different religions ! sarcasm sure pick correct groups bible thumpers , fundamentalists , southern baptists deserve hasty generalizations prejudicial statements n't pick methodists ! sarcasm please , prejudice thinking people group , please n't write protestants evangelicals ! \( pleading mode \) god wish could get ahold thomas stories n , n tha gb , gb n yvan sasha david cole iv chief research dlphknob camelot bradley edu
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject alt sex stories literary critical analysis \) organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 16 article h7v agate berkeley edu , dzkriz ocf berkeley edu \( dennis kriz \) wrote i'm going try something , perhaps many would thought even possible want begin process initiating literary critical study pornography posted alt sex stories , identify major themes motifs present stories posted opening possibility objective moral evaluation material present dennis , i'm astounded n't know interested even study filth alt sex stories provide cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
anthony landreneau ozonehole com \( anthony landreneau \) subject abortion distribution world organization ozone online operations , inc , dba ozone hole bbs reply anthony landreneau ozonehole com \( anthony landreneau \) lines 21 margoli watson ibm com \( larry margolis \) anthony landreneau ozonehole com lm rape passed , nothing ever take away lm true forcing remain pregnant continues violation lm body another 9 months see unbelievably cruel life violation cruel , killing living solely friend right cold anthony slmr 2 1 's difference orange \? ozone hole bbs private bulletin board service \( 504 \) 891 3142 3 full service nodes usrobotics 16 8k bps 10 gigs 100 , 000 files skydive new orleans ! rime network mail hub 500 usenet newsgroups please route questions inquiries postmaster ozonehole com
kevin rotag mi org \( kevin darcy \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality organization , \? \? \? lines 15 article pww spac at1 59 rice edu pww spacsun rice edu \( peter walker \) writes article 1993apr18 rotag mi org , kevin rotag mi org \( kevin darcy \) wrote , one , considered intentionality primary ontological stuff built perceptions , consciousness , thoughts , etc frank means alone seeing intentionality \( values , puts \) underlying human experience , even called objective experiences , measurements natural world , output des chip others us see intellectual masturbation 'll defer greater firsthand knowledge matters kevin
bil okcforum osrhe edu \( bill conner \) subject 2000 years , say christian morality nntp posting host okcforum osrhe edu organization okcforum unix users group x newsreader tin version 1 1 pl9 lines 54 mind , say science basis values bit reach science basis observable fact 'd say one chooses observe observation interpreted significance 's given depends great deal values observer science human activity , subject potential distortion human activity myth scientists moral influence ethical concern , knowledge whole pure nature biases scientist , nonsense bill one argue objective values \( moral sense \) one must first start demonstrating morality objective considering meaning word objective doubt ever happen , back original question objective morality \? may unfortunate choice words , almost self contradictory objective sense used means something immutable absolute morality describes behavior group people first term inclusive , second specific concept supposedly described may meaning however god described christians \( instance \) , existence apart independent humankind existence outside frame reference \( reality \) declares thing , necessarily since defined omnipotent , claims believed , least omnipotent relative us god intrinsically self defined reality whatever says objective sense god determines standard conduct , standard objective human beings held accountable conformance standard permitted ignore , substitute relative morality mode conduct , giving term morality nebulous , meaningless sense argued pretending misunderstand standard objective conduct required meet standard therefore objectively determined convenient pretend term morality infinitely , n't mean objective standard n't exist morality come mean little cultural norm , preferred conduct decent people , making seem subjective , derived absolute , objective , standard ironically , objective standard perfect accord true nature \( according christianity least \) , yet condemned contrary human , oppressive severe may due bill much amoral standard , like , 's x
deane binah cc brandeis edu \( david matthew deane \) subject flaming nazis reply deane binah cc brandeis edu organization brandeis university lines 106 okay , 'll bite probably leave alone , heck article 1993apr14 422 sun0 urz uni heidelberg de , gsmith lauren iwr uni heidelberg de \( gene w smith \) writes article brewich hou tx us popec brewich hou tx us \( pope charles \) writes name guy responsible much uniforms , props used early nazis rallies name roehm , hitler claim came swastika business n't credit actual flag design party member dentist \? believe gives credit mein kampf killed early nazi purge many associates flaming homosexuals well know also trying find actual evidence common assertion recently postings groups soc history soc culture german uncovered net experts could provide well , i'm expert , histories nazi germany assert make reference several scandals occurred long night long knives impression got homosexuality portions sa common knowledge also , book \( homosexual author whose name escapes moment \) called homosexuals history asserts roehm heines homosexuals , well others roehm 's sa circle books say roehm associate , edmund heines , homosexual able find nothing beyond , suspect sort historical urban legend well , 're one germany n't believe history books , look primary sources us outside germany access seems plenty documented instances several scandals , fact knight long knives several sa members \( including heines \) found sleeping together , etc also believe people complaining sa 's homosexual activities \( young boys , etc \) histories 've read make convincing case none sounds like urban legend \( irving , notoriously unreliable historian , says funk , nazi finance minister , homosexual gives sources \) know next nothing irving nothing funk precisely know , would contradict history books read concerning existence homosexual nazis \? trying say historians taking part anti homosexual smear \? homosexual writers agree official history \? n't think would found truth roehm heines homosexuals \? would think would want homosexuality nazism one use connection two bash homosexuals case challenge anyone document claim going challenge historians point \( irving \) , burden proof track references find stories originate , one germany , close archival material people net found great deal evidence many flaming heterosexuals among nazis seems include worst ones hitler , himmler , goebbels , goering , , eichmann , many eh \? agenda \? prove nazis heterosexuals , bash heterosexuals \? bother nazis might homosexuals \? make homosexuals bad true \? course bisexuals \? half nazis \? n't know would difficult believe nazis homosexuals german officer corps ww1 , instance , notorious homosexuality numerous scandals rocked german govt late 19th early 20th century many kaiser 's friends prosecuted kaiser homosexual , germany army long tradition homosexuality , going far back prussian history back frederick great least , homosexual roehm product prussian officer tradition , old german army \( like english public school system \) , well known center homosexuality , would quite willing overlook roehm 's homosexuality addition , nazis complained homosexuality hitler youth hitler youth swallowed pre nazi youth groups , various pre war , bund , youth groups known promote ideals friendship , many cases , homosexuality seems unlikely plenty homosexual nazis , regardless official nazi dogmas concerning evils homosexuality suprise anyone \? homosexuality always existed , societies would unusual nazis exception , n't sources , think kind proof accept would citations archival material , access intend reread every book nazis modern homosexuality ever read n't time nothing stopping , however , chasing sources prove otherwise , though , stick established histories david matthew deane \( deane binah cc brandeis edu \) eternal bleak wind let gods speak softly us days hereafter \( ezra pound \)
psyrobtw ubvmsd cc buffalo edu \( robert weiss \) subject 18 apr 93 god 's promise philippians 4 9 organization university buffalo lines 8 news software vax vms vnews 1 41 nntp posting host ubvmsd cc buffalo edu things , ye learned , received , heard , seen , god peace shall philippians 4 9
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject 14 apr 93 god 's promise 1 john 1 7 organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 14 article tweekco uucp , alizard tweekco uucp \( lizard \) wrote judging postings 've read usenet non usenet bbs conferences , barney definitely endangered species especially runs dark alley please , please n't make barney modern martyr saviour mythical figure , humans create religion name , life unbearable \) cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
sandvik newton apple com \( kent sandvik \) subject disillusioned protestant finds christ organization cookamunga tourist bureau lines 23 article boi hp com , jburrill boi hp com \( jim burrill \) wrote jesus never taught concept trinity , deal following mat 28 18 jesus came said , authority heaven earth given mat 28 19 therefore go make disciples nations , baptizing name father son holy spirit , mat 28 20 teaching obey everything commanded surely always , end age jim , please , 's lame explanation trinity jesus provides baptizing people name three things ! trinity case , i'm wrong , assumed trinity implies god three entities , yet cheers , kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities net
cutter gloster via mind org \( cutter \) subject biblical backing koresh 's 3 02 tape \( cites enclosed \) distribution world organization gordian knot , gloster , ga lines 22 netd susie sbc com \( \) writes article 20apr199301460499 utarlg uta edu b645zaw utarlg uta edu \( stephen think david koresh n't solid structure , sound biblical backing hour long tape broadcast , n't think anyone really cares solid structure sermon 's deaths 's responsible concern people think ought hold christ followers died hand romans also fault believing god , society reminds roman empire every day guess 'll log go watch american cutter gloster via mind org \( chris \) jobs easy person n't holt 's law
subject albert sabin rfox charlie usd edu \( rich fox , univ south dakota \) reply rfox charlie usd edu organization university south dakota computer science dept nntp posting host charlie lines 91 article 1993apr15 nntpd2 cxo dec com , sharpe enet dec com \( system privileged account \) writes article 885 sunfish usd edu , rfox charlie usd edu \( rich fox , univ south dakota \) writes article 1993apr10 rambo atlanta dg com , wpr atlanta dg com \( bill rawlins \) writes earlier dialogue deleted perhaps read stop advancing bible evidence relating questions science jesus exist \? g wells great fallacy statement question origins based science alone nope , fallacy yep , science best determining religions handle rich , curious others award custody baby theists religion \? hope n't award custody , rich purposely used handle order avoid e , happens religions \( course like scientific creationism \) used best part indicate science currently time , domains mostly ignored also attempted brief , doubt confused matter aside , science written nobody seems argue theists , theologians better investigate magicians , , , athiests agnostics seems answer would vary individual individual i'm trying evasive , societal perspective , religion works hand , sometimes abused misused , many suffer , know net result seems positive , anthropological perspective human affairs might call neo insofar think masses ca n't get along without religion generally incapable n't , myriad reasons , main one seems promise immortality , immortality therefore seems theologians better equipped others mention answers suggest holds regardless truth answers simply people believe end , spiritual beliefs real scientific facts explanation \( caution take context \) suggest forever closed scientific investigation \? fact , n't think closed , least individuals n't group theoretical physicists argue matter created nothing big bang singularity \? approach might absence , except seems could argued something responsible nothing \? maybe something n't supernatural , maybe 's tough one people today grasp case , theory without empirical data explanation , question require data words , agree theorizing \( within scientific parameters \) scientific explaining answer , closed scientists , sense science currently inadequate data necessary improvement , seems long way , ever pretty convoluted hope 've made sense seems 200 years ago , question origin life earth considered open scientific agree generally prefer put way questions , , open inquiry enlightenment , reason questioning theological answers , , part , science thus born curiosity , eventually away largely leaving behind ignorant , selfish , intolerant , arrogant , course , still claim authority four domains rich fox , anthro , usouthdakota like discussion around , figure original post \) much obliged funny facts tend things , n't \? well , sure plenty scientific creationist somewhere , even created nothing record , , modern humans best regards \) , rich fox , anthro , usouthdakota